From: prem@cs.montana.edu (M.P.Premkumar)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil
Subject: Re: A CHALLENGE TO THE OPPONENTS OF CASTE BASED RESERVATIONS
Date: 14 Sep 92 20:25:31 GMT
Article-I.D.: coe.1992Sep14.202531.2871
Organization: Dept. of Computer Science, MSU, Bozeman Mt 59717

In article <1992Sep2.140402.4469@engage.pko.dec.com> thiyagarajan@mims.enet.dec.com (RT) writes:
>
>In article <1992Aug31.221855.26000@coe.montana.edu>, prem@cs.montana.edu (M.P.Premkumar) writes...
>
>Please read my previous reply
>
>
>While I agree that it is very difficult to check income in India I still have
>the opinion that there sould be some cap on income level along with another
>criteria (like if the family has used reservation for one generation they
>should not use it in the next generation)

Maybe.

>I think SC/ST reservation should continue.

Good.

>I do think it is dis-integrating society on caste-basis.

No, the society is more integrated and balanced than it was 40 years ago.

>I do not think that the politicians have the guts to specify any time-frames

Agreed.

>I think it is a generalization. I have seen many rich people doing sincere
>charity works for poor. So I do not buy this argument.

Charity work is different. A company boss might go and give alms for the poor 
but may not be inclined to look into the plight of his own company workers. 
A successful doctor may do some service in a Lion's Club chapter. But at the 
same time he will never be willing to go and practice in a village. So charity
is different and accepting others' handicap and helping them by way of sacrifice
is different. You seem to be confused with this.

>So you agree that BCs can now compete against FCs.
>If the cut-off marks are narrowing why any reservation at-all for BC?

Yes. And as I had said before the OC field has to be studied and widened 
gradually.

>I disagree to this. The education standard of TN is going down according to
>many studies (eg no of IAS candidates from TN)

I have seen many people claiming that education standard is going down in TN 
based on IAS results. It is absolute bullshit. If you take a look at our present
society and the interest of the public, you can see more and more people wanting
their children to become doctors and engineers. Gone are the days when IAS was 
sacred. The truth is nobody in TN even cares to think about IAS.

I would like to ask you and others, were you not intelligent enough to write
and pass the IAS exams ? The point is all the brilliant students go for 
B.E/B.Tech./MBBS, then probably a M.E/M.Tech. or an MBA or an MS. And ofcourse 
in the middle many go for work after their undergraduate degree. That explains
why TN is low on producing IAS officers. Anybody care to include IIT JEE 
results, MS admission to good Univs., IIM results, Placement figures in top
companies of TN students along with the IAS results in the analysis ? 

>So what do you suggest the qualified FC students who did not get seats because
>of reservation? 

I would like to make onething clear. If we start looking at specific cases of
injustice then any system is unjust. It is like De Klerk saying white interests
have to be protected in South Africa and we cannot have a democratic govt. 
without white supremacy in parliament.

Sorry if I was harsh but I just want to say this: look beyond yourself, your 
family and your caste. How many FC students really suffer because of 
reservations ? And how many get into private colleges with money ? How many of
them are from poor, uneducated family ? 

>I have seen cases where students get seat just because of their caste.

As I have told no system is perfect.

>I think reservation on any basis is counter-productive and the percentage of
>reserved seats in TN is very high.

Percentage of seats reserved in TN is high because FCs are in smaller percentage

>Then you have to agree that an FC students who is having very low marks can be
>'capable' of becoming a doctor.

Yes.

>I think the % of people doing this in USA is insignificant.

If there are so few people like that(we are talking about people listening to 
TV preachers) how come they command so much audience. And did you happen to 
watch the Republican Convention when the religious leaders called for holy war
and the supposedly ultra-modern American "delegates" cheering ?

>> TAMBRAS(Tamilnadu Brahmin Assn.) asks brahmins to vote for ADMK in elections.
>>What do you think about that ? And brahmins vote for ADMK regardless of the 
>>candidate.Why is this happening ? Does MGR being a brahmin or Jayalaitha being
>>a brahmin play any part in the logic ? If not then what is the logic in voting
>>for ADMK which is as good or as bad as DMK.

>First MGR was not a brahmin. Second TAMBRAS has every right to support any
>party (like vanniar sangam supporting PMK). While I agree that ADMK and DMK
>both are bad, only in DMK you can see brahmin-bashing (if you want you can see
>speaches by MK or any DMKians in this year's Muthamizh vizha from any magazine)
>That is why TAMBRAS is supporting ADMK.

Vanniar Sangam and PMK are one and the same(bad example!). In what way is ADMK
different ? Now that K. Veeramani supports Vedic institute will TAMBRAS support
DK ? 

>Will this apply to any fields? or only for education? What about caste based
>promotion? Why not in national games? For example in a running race ask FC
>runner to start after 5 minutes after all other BC/SC/ST runners started?
>This argument in this century is simply meaningless.

I can see your anger but hardly any reasoning. Yeah I would support such a race
if BC/SC/ST have had poor nutrition and no physical training all along and FC 
have had them just becuase they were FC.

>>when I passed high school and found many of my friends unable to get into
>>good colleges. I come from Mylapore which is a predominantly brahmin area and
>>so most of my friends were brahmins. When I got admission into a good college
>>and they failed to do so, I felt so bad. It was then I began wondering why the
>
>What happened to your friends?

Well, they all studied in BITS, Pilani.

>>hell we had this reservation business. I began asking myself whether I was right
>>in using the reservation system. My parents would say that was right because I
>>was the first in my family to get a college education. Maybe they are right. But
>
>Since you used reservation will you allow your children to exploit it?

No.

>I hope that everyone knows povery does not have any discriminations. You can
>see the same kind of poor people among FCs also

Agreed that there are poor FCs. But my argument for caste based reservations
is entirely different. Please read again(particularly why economic criterion
doesn't solve the problems).

>>found them to be fully eligible for reservation unlike my case. Also I began to
>>look beyond the limits of Madras, Madurai, Coimbatore and other cities. People 
>>came from obscure villages and towns. They all fully deserve this reservations.
>
>You can see FCs also in villages and towns

Agreed. But when FCs talk about scores of FCs being denied admission in good 
colleges they are talking about city dwellers.

>>But I think the OC percentage should be increased based on how the OC field 
>>looks like(% of FCs/BCs/SCs/STs). And based on current trends I think the OC
>>field should be gradually increased as the academic gap changes. The obstacles
>>to that are selfish people in the BC/SC/ST castes who would like to use the
>>reservations again and again and our beloved politicians who wouldn't want to
>>anger such people.
>
>I am glad to note this 
>
>>Put in a nutshell here are my points:
>> 
>>1. The introduction of caste based reservations are justified.
>>2. Their continuance is also justified.
>>3. The percentages need to be reviewed and OC(Open Competition) needs to be 
>>   widened.
>> 
>>So here is the challenge guys. Read my views fully and if you accept them fine,
>>it is upto you to decide what to do. If you disagree then please RESPOND in the
>>net(I am tired of this e-mail business) explaining where you agree and where you
>>disagree and why.
>
>RT

Thank you very much for reading my article and pointing out your reservations
against some of my observations. You know, when there was so much fighting in
this newsgroup on reservation there were so many people in the so called 
"discussion". But I had given my views then(in the midst of all that sniping)
but no one cared to reply to me. Thats why I went ahead and posted my summary
with a provocative header and even then except you I am yet to find a supporter
or an opposer of my views in SCT. Why ? 

Forget the supporters atleast they can say "mounam sammatham". What about the
opposers ? Where did they go ? Are they interested only in fighting but not
interested in discussions ?  Or are they all supporting my views ?

Sincerely yours,
M.P.Premkumar
Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil,soc.culture.indian,soc.culture.indian.telugu