HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee)
Subject: Re: Lunacy from Dave Van Domelen (Was: Re: User Rights Camps)
Organization: Johns Hopkins University CS Dept.
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 20:32:48 GMT

In article <1993Jan11.194626.2184@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> jfurr@nyx.cs.du.edu (Joel Furr) writes:
>>Of course, there is the temptation to lump most of whoever disagrees with you 
>>into group 1 and ignore them, since there seems to be a distinct pro-rights 
>>stance from non-wizzes and anti-rights from wizzes who would have to implement 
>>any kind of protection guaranteed.
>More gibberish.  Implement protection?  Who implements the protection? 
>Why, the #1.  The God.  The guy who administers the MU*.  And who is the
>protection supposed to protect against?  Why, the #1.  The God.  The guy
>who administers the MU*.

Dave is obviously referring to protection from other players.  The Furry
virus-writer was not a god there.

>New wizzes who have few players and little experience versus those who
>KNOW that if you set up a silly system of rules, two things happen: MUD
>lawyers emerge who interpret the rules in ways they were never meant to be
>interpreted, and two, situations inevitably arise not covered by the
>rules.  In situation two, the MUD lawyers of situation one have a field
>day screaming "wiz abuse" when you implement a rule of thumb to cover the
>situation not covered in the official Roolz.

Joel, you were annoying on Time Traveller.  I implemented the rule of thumb
"negpenny Joel Furr".  It was not covered by the rules.  You have had a field
day screaming "wiz abuse" at me for this.

Physician, heal thyself.  (Or is it "mud lawyer"?)
--
"On the first day after Christmas my truelove served to me...  Leftover Turkey!
On the second day after Christmas my truelove served to me...  Turkey Casserole
    that she made from Leftover Turkey.
[days 3-4 deleted] ...  Flaming Turkey Wings! ...
   -- Pizza Hut commercial (and M*tlu/A*gic bait)

Ken Arromdee (arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu, arromdee@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu)
From: jfurr@polaris.async.vt.edu (J. Furr)
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.admin
Subject: Re: Transcript of the "God Conference on Players' Rights"
Date: 12 Jan 93 04:54:31 GMT
Organization: Virginia Center for Lemur Fandom, Blacksburg, Virginia, USA (subscribe to alt.fan.lemurs TODAY)

In article <C0pp7q.M2r@watdragon.uwaterloo.ca> jwtlai@jeeves.uwaterloo.ca (Jim W "GrimJim" Lai) writes:
>In article <C0oHqq.D07@polaris.async.vt.edu> jfurr@polaris.async.vt.edu (J. Furr) writes:
>>The much-vaunted "Player's Rights" conference started out on Singlenesia,
>>dissolved into absolute chaos, then moved to a temporary MUSH when the player
>>limit got reached.  The chaos continued unabated until finally a sort of
>>system was reached by which people would enter a queue and take turns speak-
>>ing.  [...]
>
>I'm surprised that a server-enforced version of Robert's Rules of Order
>wasn't coded up for the occasion and used from the start.  A mandate or
>agenda (debatable for alteration and extension, of course) would have helped.
>Getting a large number of people to cooperate can be a nontrivial task,
>especially if they have not had time to familiarize.

We have one, GrimJim, but Masque is down for the next couple of weeks
while everyone in the building is off on vacation.  When Masque comes back
up, we'll offer the conference center for discussions.  Our spammage
control system has been tested and works great.
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.admin
From: geoff@cs.monash.edu.au (Geoff Wong)
Subject: Re: Players- Self Regulation
Organization: Computer Science, Monash University, Australia
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1993 03:46:39 GMT

cossett@ac.dal.ca writes:

>     Not to try and trash Shattered World's system, if it works for them
>fine. Howver, most players cannot be bothered to read the help rules file.

You seem to have missed the entire point of the rules! Showing that
you obviously couldn't bothered reading the rules. The point of these
rules is they define a legal system. Legal systems are commonly
used to clearly define "a social convention for interaction"; of course
in America it is simply used to imprison people :-); but I digress.
The "Common" laws are the simple (easy to read laws) for those players
who don't care about the laws. But if players' do care and don't like the
law as it stands they may participate in the process to change it!

Hence the laws are made by the players for the players and there
is an agreed, well specified process to change them. Furthermore
it creates "a game within a game" for those players who are more
interested in cerebal pursuits rather than simply bashing monsters.
The laws also importantly define methods of resolving conflicts
of law; particularily the appointment (by vote) of a player
primarily in charge of resolving conflicts within the law and
enforcing the law.

Of course if your players only have the comprehension skills
of 12 year olds then such a system won't be very successful. But I
find that most players tend to be university students
and do have more interests than simply repetitively slugging it
out with a virtual monster.

geoff
---
Vapour Thoughts.

Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.admin
From: jwtlai@jeeves.uwaterloo.ca (Jim W "GrimJim" Lai)
Subject: Re: Transcript of the "God Conference on Players' Rights"
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 22:59:49 GMT

In article <C0oHqq.D07@polaris.async.vt.edu> jfurr@polaris.async.vt.edu (J. Furr) writes:
>The much-vaunted "Player's Rights" conference started out on Singlenesia,
>dissolved into absolute chaos, then moved to a temporary MUSH when the player
>limit got reached.  The chaos continued unabated until finally a sort of
>system was reached by which people would enter a queue and take turns speak-
>ing.  [...]

I'm surprised that a server-enforced version of Robert's Rules of Order
wasn't coded up for the occasion and used from the start.  A mandate or
agenda (debatable for alteration and extension, of course) would have helped.
Getting a large number of people to cooperate can be a nontrivial task,
especially if they have not had time to familiarize.
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.admin
From: jgm@ais.org (jim miller)
Subject: Re: Lunacy from Dave Van Domelen (Was: Re: User Rights Camps)
Organization: Ann Arbor Information Society -- Toledo Annex
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 06:43:09 GMT


jfurr@nyx.cs.du.edu (Joel Furr) writes:

>New wizzes who have few players and little experience versus those who
>KNOW that if you set up a silly system of rules, two things happen: MUD
>lawyers emerge who interpret the rules in ways they were never meant to be
>interpreted, and two, situations inevitably arise not covered by the
>rules.  In situation two, the MUD lawyers of situation one have a field
>day screaming "wiz abuse" when you implement a rule of thumb to cover the
>situation not covered in the official Roolz.


Let me interrupt a second.

At least some wizards, Joel, with many players and much experience, got
this whole thing going, and have stated several times that they are not
interested in a hard-to-enforce "silly" system of rules.  You and many
of the other players in this discussion can't get this through your heads,
or keep beating the straw man because the aim of this discussion does
not sit well with your entrenched positions.

What is being sought is a rather general affirmation of ethical principles,
ones that apply to human beings in all situations.  Many people feel it
is about time that an attempt is made to make these explicit, in this
domain, because muds are, well, rife with people not applying ethics.

One can't change how individual wizards act, but it is hoped that after some
while, these ethics become a part of the social "consciousness" of muds,
and new maintainers as a habit try to run their systems in accordance with
them, because _not_ doing so has caused a whole history of bad feelings.

Ok, you can continue.


>You cretinous dingbat  .......

-- 
* My 3 rules for meeting women *
1.  Seek simple women with common sense and a capacity for commitment.
2.  Stay away from women entangled in *any* way with another man.  Apply
    the word "entangle" broadly, and don't let them fool you.
From: jfurr@nyx.cs.du.edu (Joel Furr)
Subject: Re: A proposed "brief statement of players' rights"
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 93 10:09:22 GMT

In article <126@genco.bungi.com> mdh@genco.bungi.com (Michael Hackett) writes:
>In article <C0oJpJ.DE0@polaris.async.vt.edu> jfurr@polaris.async.vt.edu (J. Furr) writes:
>>
>>"This MUD does not guarantee your privacy, inasmuch as it is impossible to
>>do so.  Snooping on other players is frowned upon and may be dealt harshly
>>with given the situation.  Snooping by wizards for db protection purposes
>>or for the purpose of investigating suspicious activity by players may
>>take place at any time.  People being wiz-snooped may not be told until
>>the investigation concludes."
>
>	I have to at least applaud this effort at a working definition.
>Granted, it's not perfect and does have minor loopholes, but it is a good
>place to start; and if nothing more is added, is far better than having
>no "code" at all.
>

It's really just the "protection from wiz snooping, such as it is" policy
I've proposed here, but in my experience a mammoth portion of player
complaints about wizards deal with snooping and the question of whether
the wizard has any "right" to do this, even if it's for the reasons stated
above.
From: mdh@genco.bungi.com (Michael Hackett)
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.admin
Subject: Re: A proposed "brief statement of players' rights"
Date: 12 Jan 93 01:52:17 GMT
Reply-To: mdh@genco.bungi.com (Michael Hackett)
Organization: Gentry & Assoc. Excelsior Springs, MO

In article <C0oJpJ.DE0@polaris.async.vt.edu> jfurr@polaris.async.vt.edu (J. Furr) writes:
>
>"This MUD does not guarantee your privacy, inasmuch as it is impossible to
>do so.  Snooping on other players is frowned upon and may be dealt harshly
>with given the situation.  Snooping by wizards for db protection purposes
>or for the purpose of investigating suspicious activity by players may
>take place at any time.  People being wiz-snooped may not be told until
>the investigation concludes."

	I have to at least applaud this effort at a working definition.
Granted, it's not perfect and does have minor loopholes, but it is a good
place to start; and if nothing more is added, is far better than having
no "code" at all.

"Be well..."
  Michael


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~  Michael "Lionman" Hackett		mdh@genco.bungi.com	       ~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~  "In the spaceship, the silver spaceship, the lion takes control."  ~~
~~  "Hush my darling, be still my darling, the lion's on the phone."   ~~
~~  "In the spaceship, the silver spaceship, the lion waves goodbye."  ~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~Quote by They Might Be Giants~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.admin,news.admin.policy,alt.fan.furry
From: foxen@netcom.com (Foxen)
Subject: Re: Quicksilver virus on furry Muck -- solved!
Organization: Fuzzball Software and Graphic Arts
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 09:59:25 GMT


Look people, it's like this:
The guy wrote the virus.
The guy also happens to be a Christian.

THESE TWO DATUMS HAVE ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH EACH OTHER!

So it's really really silly to start a flame war over it.

'Nuff said.

	- Foxen

-- 
        ___  __    ___   _   .   _^^        ____    foxen@netcom.netcom.com
 \   / |    |  \  |     | |  -> '-" \______/___/  Yet Another Furry Fan (YAFF!)
  `v'  |--  |--<  |---  `v'  '    ,| _____ |       "Support the Church of the
   |   |___ |   \ |      o       //||    |||           Holy Fur of Ilura!"
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.admin,news.admin.policy,alt.fan.furry
From: whale@leland.Stanford.EDU (Stephen Schmidt)
Subject: Re: Quicksilver virus on furry Muck -- solved!
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 93 20:29:56 GMT

In article <1993Jan7.125647.9694@iscsvax.uni.edu> peacock5293@iscsvax.uni.edu (Greywolf) writes:
>So, I'm not too happy at having some guy claiming to be a Christian being
>responsible for the virus, either.  And, for the record, I don't advocate
>burning heretics.

I'd like to see some Scriptural support for the notion that releasing a
virus on a MUD is un-Christian. By email please, as I think I'm the only
one that wants to see it.
There is plenty of Scriptural support (and historical) for the permissibilty
of burning heretics. If you don't advocate it, that has nothing to do with
your Christianity.
-- 
Steve Schmidt			<><		   whale@leland.stanford.edu
I can no longer sit back and allow Communist infiltration, Communist
indoctrination, Communist subversion, and the international Communist
conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids!
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.admin
From: srmaygar@eos.ncsu.edu (STEVEN RICHARD MAYGAR)
Subject: Any Unter-Muds?!
Originator: srmaygar@c00510-118rd.eos.ncsu.edu
Reply-To: srmaygar@eos.ncsu.edu (STEVEN RICHARD MAYGAR)
Organization: North Carolina State University, Project Eos
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 12:16:14 GMT


Does anyone know of any currently running Unter-Muds that I can try out.
I would like the address of any that you may know are actually up now.


                                                  Steve
From: guddt@uniwa.uwa.edu.au (David Bennett)
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.admin
Subject: Re: Quicksilver virus on furry Muck -- solved!
Date: 8 Jan 1993 02:39:59 +0800
Organization: The University of Western Australia
NNTP-Posting-Host: uniwa.uwa.edu.au


michael.armstrong@homebase.com (Michael Armstrong)  writes:
>Sue?!  Charge maybe, this is serious business that you have gotten
>yourself into.  Cooperation and righting the wrong might be your only
>salvation literally.  As one other person has said.  Why don't you do
>something constructive ... coming foreward to sysadmin at your site is
>positive step foreward.  You already made made the first one.

I would be interested to see you charge anyone with anything over this
episode.  In fact, over any incident in a virtual world/mud/whatever
the heck you call it today.

The legal grounds would be real shakey...

David.
[DDT] Pink fish forever.
(Living with earthquakes)
-- 
  David Bennett,  guddt@uniwa.uwa.oz.au | University Computer Club
     Where Pink fish swim backwards.    | c/o Guild of Undergraduates
These words I am singing now mean nothing more than meow to an animal - TMBG
Disclaimer: Any spelling mistakes in this article are all entirly my fault.  Any grammer errors spotted in this article were put there because I could.
From: whale@leland.Stanford.EDU (Stephen Schmidt)
Subject: Re: What rights do people want?
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 93 20:11:49 GMT

In article <1993Jan12.185721.22021@noose.ecn.purdue.edu> coram@ed.ecn.purdue.edu (Chaosmage) writes:
>I've heard a lot in the last few days about this God's Conference, and people
>wanting rights/priviledges.  But no one has really said WHAT rights the
>players want.  The only thing I get out of it is some kind of right to
>privacy is lacking but desired.

1. Right not to be snooped or logged without their knowledge and consent.
2. Right not to be harassed by other players.
3. Right to have their characters restored from a recent backup if damaged,
   and to have losses made good where possible.
4. Right to know the standards of ethical behavior generally.

Those are the four rights that I think have been substantially bandied about.
Anyone want to add a few more?
>
>So, what gives?  What right are being denied that have you all up in arms?
>I must say, it is a really sad turn of events that we find ourselves NEEDING
>a written set of rights.  Aren't we all supposed to be adults?  Or close?

Not necessarily. I've run into MUD players as young as 13 years old. I've
also run into college seniors who left a lot to be desired in terms of
adulthood.

>Why do people have problems with being nice to each other?  If everyone
>were nice to everyone else, there'd be no problem, ne?

Some of the issues would still come up, like what kind of snooping, logging,
or forcing is acceptible. Some would be solved.
>
>Maybe it's because I've never been screwed over by another player nor a 
>wizard, but I really don't see the problem.  Everywhere I've been there's
>been some sort of policy.  Common sense has served ME all the time.  And
>all the wizards I've talked with were nice enough to put up with my foolish
>questions.

You've been lucky... I've been lucky too. The only problems I've ever had
was that a wizard listened to my sad story and gave me a break he shouldn't
have given me, which was later taken away by the admins. However, you'll hear
plenty of sad stories if you listen here long enough. Remember the person whose
tinysex was posted and logged? Major bummer.

One last comment is that a lot of the problems being discussed are not player
rights but wizard rights: code ownership and the like. A topic for another
post, which I won't make right now.



-- 
Steve Schmidt			<><		   whale@leland.stanford.edu
I can no longer sit back and allow Communist infiltration, Communist
indoctrination, Communist subversion, and the international Communist
conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids!
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.admin,rec.games.mud.tiny
From: foxen@netcom.com (Foxen)
Subject: Re: MUCK Virus? What happened?
Organization: Fuzzball Software and Graphic Arts
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 22:16:34 GMT

priss@glia.biostr.washington.edu (Lisa) writes:
>coram@ed.ecn.purdue.edu (Chaosmage) writes:
>
>>Also, how would one CHECK for a MUF virus?  I don't care how it worked;
>>I'm better off NOT knowing that.  But I've been given the project of making
>>a MUF security program that will, among other things, check for such a
>>critter.  And I'd welcome any information anyone could give me that would
>>aid me in that task.
>

From MUF, you would test for a MUF virus by having a program that checked if
someone's @desc called a program that isn't listed as a known "safe" program.
Then you have to determine if the program is in fact a virus, or just a legit
but unregistered "safe" program.  If it's legit, register it.


>MUF wizards on FB type servers should not allow M3 bits to all users
>asking, (Since this is how it got so bad on Furry)

*Bzzzzzzt!*  Sorry, but that's the wrong answer.  The correct answer is:
The Quicksilver Virus spread so quickly because Foxen was boneheaded and
lazy and didn't fix some security loopholes she knew existed months ago.
FB version 4.42 has those security loopholes closed, and is available for
anonymous ftp from netcom.com in the pub/fb directory.  FurryMUCK, FYI, has
only about a dozen M3's, of which several are also wizards.

The other point is good, though.  GIVE M3 BITS ONLY TO PLAYERS YOU TRUST.
Treat them almost like Wizard bits.


>And most MUF wizards should over see programs to avoid odd things like a
>person doing an @wall like program subtly.

Reviewing programs is a good idea, generally, yes.

	- Foxen

-- 
        ___  __    ___   _   .   _^^        ____    foxen@netcom.netcom.com
 \   / |    |  \  |     | |  -> '-" \______/___/  Yet Another Furry Fan (YAFF!)
  `v'  |--  |--<  |---  `v'  '    ,| _____ |       "Support the Church of the
   |   |___ |   \ |      o       //||    |||           Holy Fur of Ilura!"
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.admin
From: sjc4@quads.uchicago.edu (Shannon/Sabas/Quietus Clark)
Subject: HoloMuck Back up and in the U.S.
Reply-To: sjc4@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 03:16:32 GMT

Greetings.  This is to inform all that HoloMuck is once again up and running 
after a break for the holidays.  HoloMuck is at collatz.rh.uchicago.edu 5757.
We welcome all to the organized realms of Holo.  We feature Nasa our space
program, we are now offering lodgeings both planet bound and in space in our
new astroid apartment.  Our Cyberspace, based loosely on the vision of William
Gibson will be open for access soon.  On the diverse planet of Holo (one of 
two major planets in HoloMuck) we feature a "realistic" town, Taanstafl and
many more magical realms outside.  Some highlights are our desert areas, our
many interesting forests to wander through, our challenging polar regions, and
in Taanstafl itself many puzzling houses and a sewer system.  Throughout the
whole of HoloMuck there is a radio broadcasting network as well as a complex
system of paging.  We are absolutly non-discriminatory and welcome individuals
of all varieties to our worlds.  HoloMuck is running under TinyMuck with many
a source change added by Sjade and Mouse.
			Looking foward to seeing old and new alike,
				Quietus Sabas,
				Chancellor of Cyberspace,
				Resident AI
			    and Hardware manager for HoloMuck
 


-- 
shannon j. clark           BJC Council, BJ-FOOD committee, BJ computer chair 
School: (312) 702-5339     Scribe Medieval Society
Home:   (708) 848-2205     Quietus on HoloMuck (collatz.rh.uchicago.edu 5757)
1st and 1.5th floors Linn, Poet, Writer, Editor, SMOF sometimes
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.admin
From: sfwhite@sciborg.uwaterloo.ca (Stephen White)
Subject: Re: Looking For Code...
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 20:32:37 GMT

In article <1it5i3INNs6r@aludra.usc.edu> pierson@aludra.usc.edu (Steve Pierce)
writes:

> Also...are there any versions of ANY MU* that use C++ or other OO lang?

It isn't clear if you're talking about the language that the MUD server
is written in, or the "extension" language which you can use on-line to
program objects in the MUD.  I don't know of any servers that are written
in C++, but there may be some.

Servers that have object-oriented "extension" languages include LP (which
uses LP-C), MOO and COOLMUD (the latter two of which I'm to blame for :).
COOLMUD has multiple inheritance, and is distributed, ie., objects on
different servers can communicate.
-- 
Stephen F. White
sfwhite@sciborg.uwaterloo.ca
"I don't even know what reality is." - David Lynch
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.admin,rec.games.mud.lp,rec.games.mud.misc
From: rwfuller@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (robert fuller)
Subject: seeking site
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1993 04:18:08 GMT

I am seeking a site for an awesome MUD.  It is ready to open.
I would prefer a NeXT computer :-)

Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.admin,rec.games.mud.tiny
From: arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee)
Subject: Re: MUCK Virus? What happened?
Followup-To: rec.games.mud.admin,rec.games.mud.tiny
Organization: Johns Hopkins University CS Dept.
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 23:48:04 GMT

In article <1993Jan12.221634.22866@netcom.com> foxen@netcom.com (Foxen) writes:
>*Bzzzzzzt!*  Sorry, but that's the wrong answer.  The correct answer is:
>The Quicksilver Virus spread so quickly because Foxen was boneheaded and
>lazy and didn't fix some security loopholes she knew existed months ago.
>FB version 4.42 has those security loopholes closed, and is available for
>anonymous ftp from netcom.com in the pub/fb directory.  FurryMUCK, FYI, has
>only about a dozen M3's, of which several are also wizards.

FurryMUCK won't even give out M2 bits, unless _every_ program you write is
intended for public use.  Writing a single program for yourself disqualifies
you from M2, let alone M3.
--
"On the first day after Christmas my truelove served to me...  Leftover Turkey!
On the second day after Christmas my truelove served to me...  Turkey Casserole
    that she made from Leftover Turkey.
[days 3-4 deleted] ...  Flaming Turkey Wings! ...
   -- Pizza Hut commercial (and M*tlu/A*gic bait)

Ken Arromdee (arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu, arromdee@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu)