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Date:         Sun, 26 Jul 1992 15:57:26 -0400
From:         "MARIO S. DE PILLIS" <AHAB000@UCSVAX.UCS.UMASS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Pouring sharkbait on troubled waters.
Comments: To: HISTORY%RUTVM1.BitNet@pucc.PRINCETON.EDU

Marion Diamond--Thanks for the quotation from the Guardian. We get
practically no rational reporting on Castro here.  He is a non person here.
But there was a some what sympathetic report in the current Progressive
magazine. But as I recall the American author/visitor felt that the people
were tired of being told what to do.  It seems doubtful that the Jesuit
schoolmaster Numero Uno is going to stop telling people what to do.
  There are a lot of historical ironies in your quotation,  but one is that
Las Casas sought justice for the Indians but did not ask Pope or King to stop
the worse slavery of blacks.  Yet his national and cultural "descendant" can
talk about racism.  Cotton Mather,  of the Calvinist elect,  called the
Indians "tawney serpents" and welcomed the gift of a slave.
******************************************
Mario S. De Pillis, Dept. of History, UMass at Amherst, Amherst, MA 01002
Internet: AHAB000@PHOBOS.UCC.UMASS.EDU
Telephone: home: 413-253-9497; office 413-545-0227
US Mail:  27 Gaylord St, Amherst, MA 01002, USA
fax (UMass/Herter): 413-545-6137
*****************************************
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Date:         Wed, 22 Jul 1992 13:44:30 EDT
From:         Lenny <LABBEY@GTRI01.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: On the deaths of the Romanov family ...
              22 Jul 1992 11:40:34 EST from <kitchel@OCTOPUS.DPSI.COM>

>	If memory serves, when Nicky heard about the outbreak of the
>Russo-Japanese War, he was on the tennis court. The "right thing" at
>that juncture was to finish the match, since that was the most
>pressing piece of business.
>							--Sid


Sort of like Francis Drake, eh?

Lenny
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Date:         Sun, 26 Jul 1992 19:53:41 +1000
From:         Marion Diamond <med@LINGUA.CLTR.UQ.OZ.AU>
Subject: Re: Pouring sharkbait on troubled waters.
Comments: To: HISTORY%RUTVM1.BITNET@pucc.Princeton.EDU

I know I'm a voice cryng in the wilderness (or the Pacific, anyway)
and can't really complain if all you Americans keep rabbiting on about
issues of little interest to the rest of the world, but Lynn finally
brought up an aspect of the present Castro/Batista/white hats/black hats
debate which interests me.
I've just been reading the latest Guardian Weekly containing an interview
with Castro from - I think - Le Monde.  Most of it is pretty predictable,
but he was asked:
'What is youropinion of the celebration s of the so-called "discovery"
of America?
Castro: There are those who piously refer to the "meeting of two cultures"
But this term seems no more appropriate to me, because the truth is that
it was the imposition of one culture upon another, of the crushing of
certin peoples by others who possessed a more advanced military technology,
of the violent intrustion of Europe in America....
In all frankness, I tell you that as a Cuban I think it is better that
Cuba was colonised by the Spanish and not be racist Europeans, because from
the character of that colonisation came the formidable mixture which is
our people of today."

Now, I've just been lecturing first year students on Louis Hartz's thesis -
does anyone deal with it in America or Canada any more? - and I was
intrigued by the relative sympathy with which Castro referred to Spain.
Is Lynn right, and this is a matter of race - the revolution of the Havana
yacht club, remember! - or is the influence of the colonising power -
whether machismo in Cuba, or the Calvinist doctrine of the elect which
made Lenny what he is to day - more significant than mere race.

Marion Diamond
med@lingua.cltr.uq.oz.au
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Date:         Sun, 26 Jul 1992 15:56:54 EDT
From:         Anne Kearney <JCCANNEK@UKCC.UKY.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Castro

There is a letter in FRD's papers from a young Fidel asking for $1.00.  No
 indication that it was answered.

ANNE KEARNEY
HISTORY PROGRAM
JEFFERSON COMMUNITY COLLEGE - UNIVERSITY OF KENTUCKY
109 EAST BROADWAY
LOUISVILLE, KY 40202
(502) 584-0181, EXT. 353
JCCANNEK@UKCC
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Date:         Wed, 22 Jul 1992 20:49:00 EDT
From:         DGPAZ@CLEMSON.BITNET
Subject:      Re: On the deaths of the Romanov family ...

This entire business about the Romanovs as victims/martyrs/saints
leads me to wonder whether the Russians, having sloughed off one
mythology, are replacing it with others.

Denis Paz
dgpaz@clemson.bitnet
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Date:         Thu, 23 Jul 1992 20:54:11 EDT
From:         Cal <PRYLUCK@TEMPLEVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Anarchism

I guess Pinochet didn't leap to Lenny's mind because P was one of the
good dictators.
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Date:         Tue, 21 Jul 1992 11:24:13 EDT
From:         Cal <PRYLUCK@TEMPLEVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: meet John Doe

Again depending on my memory and a glance at a concise encylopedia:
Francis Everett Townsend proposed "the Townsend Plan," described as a
"simplistic old-age pension plan . . . its popularity contributed to the
passage of social security legislation."

I believe he was associated with Gerald L. K. Smith's third party as, perhaps,
vice-presidential candidate in 1936

Cal Pryluck                               <PRYLUCK@TEMPLEVM>
Dept of Radio-Television-Film             <PRYLUCK@VM.TEMPLE.EDU>
Temple University
Philadelphia, PA 19122
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Date:         Tue, 21 Jul 1992 10:56:00 GMT
From:         ARHN6001@IRUCCVAX.UCC.IE
Subject:      Re: Meet John Doe

        I missed that start of this thread, so I do not know if it was
mentioned already, but no list of films about outsiders becoming President
or just making an impact in poltics is complete with THE GARDENER.
Remmeber the one with Peter Sellers, which ended with Sellers character,
Chance the gardener, getting the last laugh by .... well if you haven't
seen it, i won't spoil it.

        It is well worth a watch if you can find it in your local video
library.

        Mike Cosgrave
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Date:         Tue, 21 Jul 1992 11:48:55 EDT
From:         Cal <PRYLUCK@TEMPLEVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Meet John Doe

BEING THERE as the title used for the film in its domestic release (i.e.,
United States and Canada).  Likely, Mike's title for the same film, THE
GARDENER was likely the UK release title.  Changing titles for release in
different territories is a common practice.

Cal Pryluck                               <PRYLUCK@TEMPLEVM>
Dept of Radio-Television-Film             <PRYLUCK@VM.TEMPLE.EDU>
Temple University
Philadelphia, PA 19122
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Date:         Wed, 22 Jul 1992 11:00:00 EDT
From:         DGPAZ@CLEMSON.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Saint Jeanne

On Wed, 22 Jul 1992 10:38:53 BST Christopher Currie
<c.currie@CLUS1.ULCC.AC.UK> said:

> My understanding of the authoritarian/totalitarian distinction as
> expounded by Kirkpatrick was that authoritarian regimes were
> 'temporary'; they would eventually collapse or be removed, so it
> was worth putting up with them if the alternative was a 'Totalitarian'
> regime, because totalitarian regimes led to a permanent
> change of society in favour of tyranny. The Communists would never give up
> power.
>
Kirkpatrick argued that authoritarian regimes could
evolve from within in a peaceful way and be transformed
into democratic ones.

> That view of course seems nonsense since 1989. But it didn't seem quite so
> silly at the time.
>
It seemed silly to me, and to lots of other people who
did not have anything invested in the foreign
policy of the Republican Party. Many of us thought
that Kirkpatrick's view derived more from her
prior political ideology than from what we understand
to be "scholarship." Even at the time, many people
couldn't quite figure out how reformist Communism in
Czecholovakia could happen, since totalitarian systems
could not reform themselves, in Kirkpatrick's hypothesis.

Denis Paz
dgpaz@clemson.bitnet
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Date:         Sat, 25 Jul 1992 14:14:45 -0500
From:         mlove@UX1.CSO.UIUC.EDU
Subject:      Re: Family Tree Software
Comments: To: History <HISTORY@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>

>Does anybody know of any programs for the Macintosh that will create family
>trees?  I have found one that is hypercard based, but I do not care for it
>very much.
>
>Thanks!

You might try MacRoots.  It is available via ftp (I think from either
Stanford or Michigan).
Sharon Michalove,Academic Advisor
Department of History, UIUC
309 Gregory Hall, 810 S. Wright Street
Urbana, Illinois  61801
217-333-4145, e-mail:  mlove@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu

************************************************
Cats can't live with them, can't live without them!
************************************************
From: diviney@milton.u.washington.edu (Pat Diviney)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Subject: Netiquette and the Burr lecture
Summary: A well-deserved rap over the knuckles? ?
Date: 24 Jul 92 04:08:02 GMT
Reply-To: diviney@u.washington.edu
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle

Well so far I have received a few e-mail comments concerning the transcrip-
tion I made of Professor Allen's lecture on Aaron Burr.  Most of them were
appreciative and all were at least positive.  One gentleman raised an
appropriate issue and one that I neglected, that of receiving permission
to post the lecture.

I was careful to give credit to Professor Allen in the title lines.  However
it is true that I never asked permission to post his lecture.  I assumed
(wrongly?) that giving him full credit would be sufficient, perhaps I was
wrong.  He is away doing research this summer,, therefore it will be
impossible to reach him until late August.  I am thus in a quandary.  Do I
post part 2 of his lecture or not? 

 I posted to bit.listserv.history and soc.history.  I was hesitant in posting
to the former newsgroup since most of you seem to be professors or otherwise
professionals and I am merely an undergraduate.  The further advice of the
readership of this newsgroup would be appreciated.

Thank you.

Pat Diviney
diviney@u.washington.edu
e
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Date:         Mon, 27 Jul 1992 02:34:16 CDT
From:         LHNELSON --UKANVM <LHNELSON@UKANVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Fidel Castro on Racism

Hello, Marion;

Part of Castro's motivation in speaking as he did may have been self- serving.
"As a Cuban...." was, I think, the key phrase. Castro is a second-generation
Cuban. His father was born in Galicia, not too far from Franco's home town of
La Corunna. It's interesting that last week was the first time he had visited
a place where he has a number of relatives. I suspect that he did not wish to
remind his "constituents" of his origins. He speaks of the mixture of "our
people", but, unless memory serves me incorrectly, his mother was also pure
Spanish.

His original force was international, including Mexicans, Americans,
Argentinians, and various people who had fled the Batista regime, but they
were overwhelmingly "white", which was one of the reasons that Castro had so
much support from the upper and professional classes. They thought that he was
one of them -- which he was in terms of descent -- and that he would overthrow
the low-class "indio" regime of Batista.

That is, of course, one of the reasons that the football stadium executions
were so shocking. Latin American governments were overthrown with tiresome
frequency, but there were no organized pogroms. The other shocking thing is
that he was executing the wrong people, his own caste. As a matter of fact,
there was a grim joke at the time that those who had been executed were the
"castagados", a play on the word "castigado" or "punished." I recall that
there were portrait posters of Castro at the time on which the "r" in his name
has been crossed out, making "casto", or "of pure blood." Another grim joke
was that Castro's hands were "limpia de sangre" which could mean "clean of
blood", but also meant that he had been shedding "sangre limpia", "pure
blood."

I don't mean to go on and on about this; it's only one factor in the complex
politics of Hispanic countries, but it _is_ a significant one. North Americans
are very sensitive to the issue of racism in their own countries, but
relatively ignorant of the nuances of racism in other countries. That might be
why so many people are willing to believe that the Zulus in South Africa only
attack members of the ANC at the behest of the White government. The ANC is a
Bantu organization, and the Bantus hate the Zulus, who once held them as
slaves. The Zulu believe that things will not go well for them under an
ANC-dominated government, and every now and then, when the ANC appears to be
closer to exercising real power, some of them go off and kill Bantus. But
that's another story, isn't it?


Lynn

Lynn_Nelson
Department of History
University of Kansas
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Date:         Tue, 21 Jul 1992 04:02:05 EDT
From:         Anne Kearney <JCCANNEK@UKCC.UKY.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Anarchism

On Mon, 20 Jul 1992 22:36:32 EDT Lenny said:
>And let us not be too critical of McKinley.  He was a fine president.  He was
>the last of his breed, and only suffered by comparison with TR.
>
Unfortunately he was not the last of the breed.  I don't know if he was
the first to tell whoppers to Congress and the American people, but his
war message never mentioned that Spain had caved in to American demands
four days BEFORE he sent the message to Congress.  We have been
"treated" to many whoppers since then.  If only he HAD been the last!

ANNE KEARNEY
HISTORY PROGRAM
JEFFERSON COMMUNITY COLLEGE - UNIVERSITY OF KENTUCKY
109 EAST BROADWAY
LOUISVILLE, KY 40202
(502) 584-0181, EXT. 353
JCCANNEK@UKCC
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Date:         Mon, 27 Jul 1992 19:39:38 EDT
From:         "Daniel A. Foss" <DFOSS@CCVM.SUNYSB.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Anarchism [suggestion not taken up]

   By "suggestion not taken up" I mean that nobody followed up the phrase "dog
that didn't bark": What is decisive in determining whether a conspiracy theory
will emerge is context, whether a conspiracy was or was not present. This is a
hypothesis. One may use it, but not prove it, to pose counterfactuals. Had not
FDR, but some hapless individual, been president in 1941, would there ever have
emerged a conspiracy theory? Had an LBJ been succeeded by a JFK, would there
ever have emerged a whole conspiracy cult? Had Nixon won the 1960 election and
been assassinated in Springfield, Massachusetts (home state of his counter-
factual Vice-President, Lodge), would there have been a conspiracy theory?
   How might the hypothesis be proven?

DAF
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Date:         Thu, 23 Jul 1992 16:33:00 EDT
From:         JOSE@CLEMSON.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Anarchism

On Thu, 23 Jul 1992 14:14:00 EDT DGPAZ said:
> On Thu, 23 Jul 1992 13:52:52 EDT Lenny <LABBEY@GTRI01.BITNET> said:
> >
> > executions . . .                                                      s
> > performed in a soccer stadium,
> > because that was the only holding pen/firing squad facility large enough
> > to accomodate the activity.
> >
>
> Why did the name "Pinochet" suddenly leap into my
> mind?
>
> Denis Paz
> dgpaz@clemson.bitnet


Denis:  I suspect that the name Pinochet came to your mind as it did to
mine, precisely because Lenny's "account" much better fits events in
Chile after September 1973 than those in Cuba after January 1959.  And
in the Cuban case there was at least the attempt at "trials" within
that country's historical legal culture, while in Chile there was no
pretense at all to either legal form or moral justice.  Perhaps (?)
more important in shaping the US reaction to all of this was that
Castro was also attacking US property whereas Pinochet was merely
killing Chilean (with minor exception) people.  And which is more
valuable?

Joe Arbena
jose@clemson
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
From: bayla@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Bayla Singer)
Subject: Re: Pouring sharkbait on troubled waters.
Organization: Northwestern University, Evanston, Illinois, USA
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1992 13:25:50 GMT

I don't know who taguth Castro his history lessons, but Spain of the 15th C
was as racist as any country: remember, they'd just expelled the Moors &
Jews, and excluded all non-Spaniards from immigrating to their New World
colonies. Tthe arrogance and brutality of the colonists toward the
indigenous peoples was certainly not less than that of "racist European"
colonists.  

Racism isn't a deterrent to the development of a richly diverse population,
however: ask any New York City resident.

--bayla
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Date:         Mon, 20 Jul 1992 23:39:12 CDT
From:         LHNELSON --UKANVM <LHNELSON@UKANVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Anarchism

Wife's Lament:

Czolgocz, Colgocz, you done me wrong.
You done shot my husband with an Ivor Johnston gun
McKinley's gone, a long old time.

Doctor's on the horseback,
riding down from Maine,
If he's gonna save McKinley,
He gotta catch the train
McKinley's gone, a long old time.

Doctor says to McKinley
Gonna leave that bullet there
and if this train keeps rocking
you ain't got a prayer
McKinley's gone, a long old time

McKinley says to the doctor
I'm jes clinging to my life
It aint that I'm ascared to die
but I hate to leave my wife
McKinley's gone, a long old time.

McKinley, he did figet
McKinley he did moan
But then transferred to that railroad train
that's a thousand coaches long
McKinley's gone, a long old time

Czolgocz, Csolgocz look what you done
You done shot McKinley with an Ivor Johnson gun.
McKinley's gone, a long old time.

Jes' a bit of Americana.

Lynn

Lynn_Nelson
Department of History
University of Kansas
From: rons@hardy.u.washington.edu (Ronald Schoenberg)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Subject: Re: Anarchism
Date: 24 Jul 92 00:28:09 GMT
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle

In article <HISTORY%92072314014166@RUTVM1.BITNET> Lenny <LABBEY@GTRI01.BITNET> writes:
  [elided material]
>
>
>Castro was not a "...breath of fresh air..." for anyone.
>
>Lenny

Middle class tunnel vision....a very interesting case here.  Castro
was certainly a breath of toxic air to the middle and upper classes.
All those people who lived comfortably off of the labor of the working
people were of course upset.  However, I suspect that the free health
care, free education would look good to a farm laborer compared to
what they might experience in the US. In the US someone with a bright
child (myself, for instance) can be driven into poverty trying to put
them through a reasonable good school (as happened to me) and I'm a
middle class professional.  I can afford health care but there are a
lot of US citizens who cannot.  I think you should go into rural areas
of Cuba and ask them what the think about the difference between
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Date:         Thu, 23 Jul 1992 07:48:00 PST
From:         FOXS@AXE.HUMBOLDT.EDU
Subject:      Schlesinger, Jr.

So, Dan, what's wrong with Schlesinger, specifically?  Or do you prefer
only the ad hominem approach?
Steve Fox
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Date:         Tue, 21 Jul 1992 10:51:00 EDT
From:         DGPAZ@CLEMSON.BITNET
Subject:      Re: meet John Doe

On Tue, 21 Jul 1992 09:04:42 CST GA3545@SIUCVMB.BITNET said:
> During the "Coughlin era" wasn't there a California M.D. that
> also was going to save country?  Does anybody have this person's
> name and know what happened to him?  I think he ran against
> FDR in 1936.

See A.M. Schlesinger's _Age of Roosevelt_ for all these
figures.

Denis Paz
dgpaz@clemson.bitnet
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Date:         Wed, 22 Jul 1992 16:39:13 EDT
From:         "Daniel A. Foss" <DFOSS@CCVM.SUNYSB.EDU>
Subject:      Arthur M. Schlesinger,
              Jr.'s The Age of Roosevelt: Can it be trusted?

   I saw at least two references yesterday, one of them from the usually
trustworthy Denis G. Paz, to The Age of Roosevelt, 3 vols., by Arthur M.
Schlesinger, Jr. I read these books as a kid and swallowed them whole,
unthinkingly.

   Which was long before I read his 1948 book, The Vital Center, which at the
day of judgment must surely be condemned as craven knuckling and truckling
under to Rightist Red Scare hysteria.

   The question arises, to what extent may we trust his historical-looking
works as superior to mere hagiography for the Democratic Party, that is, the
invention of its Great Traditons, starting with The Age of Jackson and
continuing with The Age of Roosevelt. It is certain that since the writing
of those books in the late 1950s Schlesinger, Jr., has served as court flunkey
in and hagiographer of New Frontier-Camelot. He would appear to be making a
bid for the job at the latest Lord's Annointed's coronation, that is, if he,
Clinton, gets in; unless he's already been made an offer: There is a 34-page
Special Advertising Secion in the July 20 Time. 24 pages push Chrysler cars;
the last 10 is a piece by Arthur M. Schlesinger, Jr., pushing Clinton. Which,
it's at minimum made to appear, Chrysler is likewise paying for.

   Is this man for sale, does he have a tropism making him such up to power,
does he do it out of real conviction, and just how does it affect our
evaluation of what is supposed to be taken for scholarship, however shallow
it actually is?

Daniel A. Foss
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Date:         Tue, 21 Jul 1992 11:59:06 EDT
From:         Lenny <LABBEY@GTRI01.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Anarchism
              21 Jul 1992 09:45:00 EDT from <DGPAZ@CLEMSON.BITNET>

The only mistake that I can see that McKinley made was in not keeping
Cuba.  We are paying for that mistake now.

We should have kept Cuba and tossed the Philippines back to the wolves.

Lenny
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