From: wc4623@innis.yorku.ca (Ming He)
Subject: Re: Oct 1, our National Day
Bcc: wc4623
Organization: York University, North York, Ontario
	<1992Oct2.193641.24389@Princeton.EDU> <lcs72sINNbnt@exodus.Eng.Sun.COM>
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 18:46:17 GMT


SCC is a battlefield, a forum of a number frequent posters working on
it.

And these kind of things should be switch to Talk.Politics.China
gradually.


From jyw@phys.psu.edu:

[What China won 43 years ago was a real INDEPENDENCE which China had
not been having for about 100 years. Nothing can be more valuable than
independence to a country.]

First, after KMT, also known as Nationalist Party, tool the nominal
control of the whole China and actual control of the most important
areas in 1928, China was an independent country as my history
acknowledgement.  Hence then, China never signed an inequivilent
accord with foreign countries, except several in northern China before
7.7 event under some circumstances (which is bullshit of KMT).

Secondly, the richness of the country and people comparing with the
independence of the country, is independence nothing more valuable?
Since independent countries in the world do not seem better than the
dependent countries which is especially true in the 3rd world
countries.  The developed countries' invading of developing countries
does hurt the people there.  But if there was invading from the west,
we may still have pig-tails everybody or whatever other format.  And
the nasty Japan during the WWII also built an advanced industry in
north-east china and taiwan.

The west's invading to other countries is out of their greedy.  That
brought two affects: hurting and angry of the invaded countries, and
promoting the development of those countries.  Hence there were many
Chinese went abroad to search the way to made China stronger, i.e. not
being exploited by others.  I have such a thinking when I was a high
school student.

From jyw@phys.psu.edu:

[However, neither US nor USSR were willing to see China becomes a
strong country. ]

Mostly true.  Especially true for our neighbor--Japan who thinks, once
I was learned, it should advances China for 20 years instead of 10
years set by USA.

From jyw@phys.psu.edu:

[When China was trying to improve the relationship with either US or
USSR, USSR or US would attempt to stem via their KGB or CIA.]

I got to say that is a little naive.  I don't think in this issue,
based upon human nature, China will act much better than the other
countries.  Except the aids to 3rd world countries during Culture
Revolution which is out of Mao's silly "I am influental, I am great, I
am the greatest in the world at this moment, but who is greater than
me in the human history?".

From jyw@phys.psu.edu:

[Mao Ze-Dong had many mistakes, but he and his comrades left us a
strong country, an independent country.


Every Chinese benefits from his/her homeland by being respected
because China has stood up.]

China is strong only true in two area: 1)large area and population,
2)seemly strong military force esp. with nuke weapons.

And Chinese are not being respected, aren't they?  I am wondering
where did you get such an impression Chinese were respected?  I'd
loved to have a trip to such a place. :-) BTW, I am planning to go
back to China within 3 years.

From jyw@phys.psu.edu:

[Just a remind, today is our National Day. Nothing can be more
valuable than independence. US could be a friend, but China is our
country.]

You are right.  We should celebrate for our country.



rom Carl, usenet@news.acns.nwu.edu:

[Sound so familar. The above article reminds me of the "CCP History"
class I had many years ago. Kind of funny.]

And from SXS30@psuvm.psu.edu:

[ This is a copy from stand CCP's text book.]

Same feeling.



From yu@chang.asd.sgi.com:

[Honestly, I find it scary that there is still people gauge the
strength of a country by (mass-destruction) military power.]

Honestly, military power does represent some of the strength of a
country.  China has or has not nuke is different, isn't it?



From Bo Xiong, xiong@bsu-cs.bsu.edu:

[The worse thing is: the PRC gov't doesn't respect its citizens until
they obtain foreign premanent residency or acquire foreign
citizenship.  (Just look at the new policy toward overseas CSS :-)]

What a gov't!  But how come such a gov't was produced in China?  Big
question.  Any body please answer it?

From Bo Xiong, xiong@bsu-cs.bsu.edu:

[Please elaborate how the people ruled by such a gov't is respected?]

I'd like to hear that too.



From SXS30@psuvm.psu.edu:

[ Look at Japan. I don't think Japan had a better envoirment than
China
 after the ending of WWII.]
 
Japan has better educate people and well organized gov't.  They were
better prepared.  China, on the contrary, put too much on civil
struggles.



From chenwei@en.ecn.purdue.edu:

[21st CENTURY WILL BE THE CENTURY OF THE GREATER CHINA!!!!]

Gee, if a Japaness or an American shout: "21st CENTURY WILL BE THE
CENTURY OF THE GREATER <his country>!!!!", do you guys feel
comfortable?

I am really agree with haiqiu@ducvax.auburn.edu, and I quote
Mai_Haiqiu as follows:

[ If China will be considered as the enemy of the world just because
of it's communism, that's ridiculous. Are you going to initiate
another cold war? I do not mean support the communism. But as long as
China do not hurt you, you do not have to right to consider China as
your enemy! Western countries have tried different ways of blocking
the development of China and some of them are still doing so. I hate
to see this. But that's understandable. No country want others to be
stronger than itself. USA do not want to see Japan become too strong.
Japan is afraid of China's development. And again China is resent of
USA's super power. When the eastern Germany get rid of communism and
united into the free western Germany, USA worried a strong German much
more than celebrating the victory of western freedom.

  If China will be considered as the enemy of the world just because
of it's communism, that's ridiculous. Are you going to initiate
another cold war? I do not mean support the communism. But as long as
China do not hurt you, you do not have to right to consider China as
your enemy! Western countries have tried different ways of blocking
the development of China and some of them are still doing so. I hate
to see this. But that's understandable. No country want others to be
stronger than itself. USA do not want to see Japan become too strong.
Japan is afraid of China's development. And again China is resent of
USA's super power. When the eastern Germany get rid of communism and
united into the free western Germany, USA worried a strong German much
more than celebrating the victory of western freedom.

 I do not like the idea the China become the strongest and crash down
all opponents. But I definitely hope China to become the strongest.
But not to become the world leader. We already have a world leader
called USA today and it indeed is crashing down all of it's weak
opponents now. I do not want China to be a second such world leader to
replace USA. I only want China to be strong enough to drag USA down
from the "world leader" chair.]

Gee, finally I found his name is ---HAMLET.

Quote continued...

[ I want to say NO to bombs also. But frankly there are not just
"still" people who gauge the strength of a country by military power.
It is the common sense of MOST of the people that gauge the strenth by
military power. Japan's economy is at least as strong as USA's, if not
stronger. (And it will be stronger as predicted.) However compare with
USA's super power, Japan is nothing.

  During Korea war USA had suggested using the A-Bomb. Fortunately
that suggestion is vetoed because of some other worries. It is under
such a thretten that China had to develop the A-Bombs to defend the
largest nation in the world. I hope China never have a chance that it
need to use A-Bomb to protect it. However China has got to have it for
safety when others have it.]

Hold Hamlet's hands, He has the same idea with me.

Quote continued...

[ I have read a book written by Jiang Jie-Shi, the KMT ruler before
1949. I got such a idea that if it is Jiang in mainland after 1949.
The population will be much much huger now. For in that book he
accused CCP of try all kinds of method to reduce the Chinese
population including massacre, and he said what he will do is
encourage the fast growth of the population so China is the
Ultra-largest and strongest nation in the world.]

Jiang bore old-style thinking.  He believe more people, more power,
similar to mao's.  There is no much difference on this issue.  After
Jiang arrived in Taiwan, he hardly to find more people to produce.
This might help him saying more people more power.

From yu@chang.asd.sgi.com

[Now we are talking priority here, is it more important to develope
those bombs for military power or cars for economical power.]

I don't think developing military power and economical power has much
conflict.  USA had fast development during Vienanmt War.  And military
industry is important to its economy.

From haiqiu@ducvax.auburn.edu:

[ Have China even used A-Bombs to kill its own people? Or had the CCP
sent a High-Tech missile to Beijing during 6.4.? It is always
accuseable of the
                                                         ^^^^^^^^^^^
CCP's brutality. But CCP's developing it's weapons is purely for self
defense against possible invasion from outside. Don't confuse
concepts!]

good point.  But note your word choice.  6.4 is not only accuseable.
It is against human will.  It is disgusting.


Following is network garbage generated from SCC.  Once I saw in
another group an article called for rmgroup of SCC due to these junks.
IMHO, these kind of things can be generally kept in private mail.

From SXS30@psuvm.psu.edu:

[ Watch out your ass. You are pissing at the public.
 If your father didn't teach you how to behavoir yourself,
 then I am sure your mother had trouble to identify who is
 your genetic father. I even doubt if you ever had an adopt
 father.]

Should Chinese, educated Chinese, behave like this?

To be some offensive, the above looks like a typical TIer's post.

Like KMT before 1949, CCP want to build a strong China.  And both of
them have obstacles both from internal and external.  Externally, they
don't have industry foundation.  They don't have well trained people.
Internally, they don't want to give up their power and private welfare
even when these conflict with people's interest.  CCP has a bad habit
of saying "party's interest is the same thing of chinese people's
interest".  That is not true logiclly, because CCP is not equal to
Chinese people.  6.4 is the glory of Chinese people.  Also is a
horrible history.

Currently, reform is underway by the control of CCP.  And at present
time, there is no other party having such a power to lead China except
KMT in Taiwan.  Mainlanders might still suspicious on KMT.  And
talking of KMT's leadership in China is too early to practice.  And in
my humble opinion, I am not keen on Capitalism.

Note most of CCP members are common people like you and me.  And most
you aren't bad guys (hopefully I am not bad guy either).  So better
things to do are changing CCP to an real political party instead of
tools of some strongperson.

Comments welcomed.  Flames please emailed.

Cheers for our country,

ming
--
Ming  He
"My .sig is in bad mood...
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china