From: jfurr@polaris.async.vt.edu (J. Furr)
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.admin,rec.games.mud.misc,rec.games.mud.tiny,rec.games.mud.lp,rec.games.mud.diku
Subject: Transcript of the "God Conference on Players' Rights"
Date: 11 Jan 93 07:20:49 GMT
Followup-To: rec.games.mud.admin
Organization: Virginia Center for Lemur Fandom, Blacksburg, Virginia, USA (subscribe to alt.fan.lemurs TODAY)

The much-vaunted "Player's Rights" conference started out on Singlenesia,
dissolved into absolute chaos, then moved to a temporary MUSH when the player
limit got reached.  The chaos continued unabated until finally a sort of
system was reached by which people would enter a queue and take turns speak-
ing.  The log is, for the most part, unedited.  The player who logged this
took out his own whispers and pages and whispers and pages directed back at
him.  The log begins on the second MUSH, some few minutes before the queue
system was arrived at.  (Note that the Followup-To: for this post is set to
rec.games.mud.admin -- please direct your comments there.)

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------

traumahound sighs at the people who think that since we can't give an ABSOLUTE
guarantee, there's NO reason to support increased privacy.

KeyLime says "the tinysex logs that got posted weren't logged by snooping
wizards, they were logged by the people themselves"

Jiro says "Howard, Forlock: being unable to guarantee privacy is not the
question. You can be unable to guarantee it, while violating it could still be
unethical. It would be the fault of whoever did the violation, not you."

Druid says "The point is..."

Tygress says "have a disclaimer as you log in, that is sent to everyone that
registers to play on your Mu* that snooping won't be tolerated.."

Druid says "If you feel your privace is being violated, go somewhere else."

TinyTIM says "hey, Zalcor. Loaded question."

Eastern isnt sure

Grump says "you shouldn't let mechanism interfere with your sense of 'rights'"

Pallando says "it is not the snooping that is evil, but the not know wing that
they might be snooped"

Howard says "Zalcor, thats doesn't matter. As long as people CAN violate
"privacy" someone out there is GOING to violate it."

Grump says "the point of this conferences -- 'what are players rights'. If the
mechanisms aren't there to insure those rights, they can come later"

Wisteria has arrived.

zalcor says "So what?"

Cinnamon says "Druid, that's not very fair. At that point everything I've done
has been watched. That's ethical?"

Eastern says "ok keylime you are having tinysex on nightmare. i log it and
opost. that is funny!"

Wisteria has left.

Tygress says "and have the wizzes of the Muck check all programs so that none
are snooping types."

zalcor says "That means it should be condoned?"

KeyLime says "Tygress, make that "snooping by players will not be tolerated.
the wizards may snoop on you at any time to make sure you're not abusing the
rights of other players. if you can't deal with that, bail""

Jerrod says "When it right? How about this, a wizard has the ability to
eastablish cause, but then must face retribution for abuse by peers if
incorrect?"

KeyLime says "Eastern, I never have tinysex"

Amberyl has reconnected.

KeyLime says "So log away"

Druid says "Cinnamon, it's perfectly fair."

Grump says "You talk about privacy being 'violated', as if you in fact have a
right to it"

Green_Griffin coughs slightly and murmurs, "This doesn't seem to be terribly
productive, friends. I'll post in a few days on the MUSHs I am associated with
a set of what rights/privleges or whathaveyou players have. Ciau."

Druid says "No one forces you to Mud or Muck."

Green_Griffin has disconnected.

TinyTIM says "keyLime!"

Eastern says "neither do i that isnt the point"

TinyTIM says "Easter?"

Druid says "If you don't like it, leave. Find somewhere else."

Howard says "So, the only real question is if the admin is going to do
anything about it and I think those decisions are on a per MUD basis."

Eastern says "what?"

Tygress nods to Keylime. The wizzes are there basically for Upkeep and to make
sure no users are being abused/harassed

Druid says "Contrary to popular believe, Mudding is NOT a right. It's a
privaledge."

zalcor says "I agree"

KeyLime says "Right, Tygress."

Eastern agrees

Jiro points out something else: if you _really_ say there is _no_ such thing
as privacy on a mud, it becomes impossible to consistently maintain that
someone like the Furry snooper is violating anyone's privacy.

TinyTIM says "Log my TinySex. it's highly entertaining and has a lot of cow
sounds."

galahalt aggress with druid

Cinnamon says "Why, Druid? Why is it fair that the wizards just happened to do
a good job at NOT making it obvious to me I was being snooped on and now every
TS session I've had can be posted to RGMT?"

Druid says "And when I, or anyone else, volunteer our Machine's CPU cycles,
you play by our rules, or you don't play."

Eastern says "thanks but no thanks"

TinyTIM says "And if you post it, maybe I shluldn't have done it if I didn't
want it to be."

Grump says "Shopping is not a right, it is a priveledge"

zalcor says "I think people are missing the pooint here"

TinyTIM says "There's a point there."

Amberyl has partially disconnected.

Grump says "It doesn't mean that the owner of the shopping center can evesdrop
on you"

Forlock says "Zal, I think the point was never pointed out"

Nightingale agrees with Druid.

Eastern says "you should have to get persons permission!"

Druid says "Cinnamon, if you don't trust the wizards, don't have tinysex
there."

TinyTIM sees a point in Zalcor's point about missing the point.

Forlock says "we have sevreral points here going ast once"

Lanya suggests that wizabuse of powers really can not be considered an
issue...asfrankly ....player abuse of other players....is the only real
issure.

Jerrod says "Well perhaps some MU*s wish to establish something more than LOVE
IT OR LEAVE it."

zalcor says "The point isn't who has control, or can people do anything"

Cinnamon says "Druid, how can I know?"

Forlock says "we need to pick one point, and stay with it"

Cinnamon says "Why is it 'fair' or 'right' for wizards to be really good at
being right bastards?"

Pallando says "Jiro. WHat you can say is, if tthe admin asks players on
entering the mud NOT to log each other without consent, then polayers who do
so are wrong. But it is going agains t the admins requshest, not snooping per
say that is wrong"

Tygress says "YOu need a moderator here."

KeyLime says "If we are to agree on anything, I feel it should be this: "This
MUD does not guarantee your privacy, inasmuch as it is impossible to do so.
Snooping on other players is frowned upon and may be dealt harshly with given
the situation. Snooping by wizards for db protection purposes or for the
purposes of investigating suspicious activity by players may take place at any
time. People being wiz-snooped may not be told until the investigation
concludes."

Lanya suggests that if a wizard abuses their powers....they don't get another
wiz job. :)

traumahound growls, "how about a _specific_ starter plank to discuss: -->
players have a right to a mechanism to communicate to another player unheard,
except under inquiry, authorized by the #1 wizard.

Hermit applauds Tygress on that one.

Jiro says "Druid, that's like saying "if you don't trust the mud to be free of
bugs that let people log with viruses, don't have tinysex there". Nobody said
that. Instead, they said that the virus writer did something unethical."

Earendil says "So, you suggest that some sort of banner in an area to alert
people you are looking for bugs and stuff in what they do or say."

Druid says "Cinnamon, you can't know anything."

Cinnamon would right that doiwn and sign it, KeyLime.

Lanya patpats Tygress. :)

Cinnamon blinks at Druid.

zalcor says "OK SHUT UP EVERYONE"

China_Blue says "that sounds good, KeyLime."

Tygress says "Roberts Rules, raise your hand and one by one the moderator
tells you you can speak, for a limited amt of time."

KeyLime dances about.

Grump raises hand

levia says "traumahound, that sounds real good."

zalcor says "Grump, yes"

Druid says "There was a player on my Muck recently that was burned by someone
playing a female character when they weren't female in RL."

KeyLime has just proposed something relatively ironclad.

zalcor says "Hush, Levia"

Grump says "There are several rights"

Jerrod shouts "Please listen to Zalcor, and be QUIET"

Druid says "How do you know the person you're having tinysex with isn't going
to post the log?"

KeyLime says "there are NO rights, Grump"

Grump says "Players have a right to privacy, wizards have a right to maintain
the functioning of the MUD"

Tygress says "ZALCOR as moderator, raise hand if you want to talk."

Grump says "people have the right to freely express themselves"

Cinnamon says "SHUT UP!!!"

Forlock says "and to build onto the MUD - LP"

TinyTIM says "Hey, Druid. That happened on my MUSH, too."

Grump says "people have a right to freedom from harassment, obscenity"

Jiro suggests something which could be nice: if the wizards are snooping
someone, and they're found _innocent_, 1) tell them, and 2) apologize. This
tends to cut down on fishing expeditions, not to mention "oh, it wasn't aimed
at you specifically..."

Grump says "the rights sometimes conflict, unfortunately"

KeyLime says "better yet, PICK AN ORDER FOR PEOPLE TO TALK IN. THAT WAY YOU
DON'T HAVE EVERYONE TRYING TO START AT ONCE"

Nightingale says "What do you mean by "burned", Druid? What happened?"

zalcor says "Jiro, hush"

Grump says "that's why you need some fancy rules to determine who wins when
rights are in conflict"

Eastern Raises jannd

KeyLime says "ZALCOR, just TAP someone"

Eastern hand even

Grump sighs, thinking he actually had the floor

Druid says "it happens on most Mu*'s. It's a function of knowing who you can
trust, and avoiding those you can't."

zalcor says "GRUMP'S TURN TO SPEAK"

Druid says "by 'burned', I mean he was rather upset about it."

Duckula sets his phaser to kill.

zalcor says "Grump?"

Grump says "people have the right to be heard, at least I've not been shouted
down"

Druid says "Look people. FurryMuck has fancy rules."

KeyLime says "ssh"

Eastern nods to grump

KeyLime says "anything else, grump?"

Druid says "And you've all seen (or could have) the effects of that posted to
r.g.m"

zalcor says "YES"

Grump says "I think that's it: there are lots of rights: the problem is that
they conflict sometimes, and we disagree about where the boundary should be"

Grump bows. "Done"

Eastern applauds

Jerrod shouts "Amby suggests gagging anyone who does not have the floor"

Eastern raise hand

KeyLime asks to restate what went by in the spam a while ago.

Cinnamon says "Shhhhh."

Forlock raises his hand as well.

zalcor says "Jiro SPEAKS"

TinyTIM says "Did anyone take the donuts over here from Single?"

Amberyl says "*** IF YOU HAVE SOMETHING TO SAY, tell Zalcor so he can put you
on the queue."

Jiro says "Whee."

Xibo ate 'em all... sorry

auzzie has arrived.

Jiro says "OK. I've been trying to say a couple of things, most of which got
lost in the noise."

Eastern listens

Jiro says "There really isn't such thing as a "right" in the sense that you
can demand that anything be done if someone else violates it (unless you're a
god)."

traumahound says "grump's ideas are good, but too vague. I propose specific
language that could be put at the login of the MU*s that endorse this. e.g.
'THIS MU* supports Singlenesia plank 1., private communication with the _page_
command. Anyone found illicitly receiving pages directed for someone else
without authorization of the head God will be @toaded."

Forlock says "y'all are doing it again, let's try to keep it at a raise hand
basis"

Cinnamon says "Shhhh."

Xibo says "why the hell should I state in my greet.txt that I follow
Singlenesia's policies? why should I have ANY policies?"

Cinnamon says "SHHHH."

Druid says "PLEASE WAIT YOUR TURN BEFORE YELLING AT PEOPLE TO WAIT THEIR TURN"

KeyLime says "Xibo, if you feel you shouldn't, then LEAVE"

Buddha raises his hand.

KeyLime says "people who have no interest in expressing policies have no
business there."

Druid says "No policy is a policy."

Howard 's policies af posted at AfterFive in the news.

Eastern Raises her hand again

TinyTIM says "Having a policy of no policy is a policy. Is that a plank?"

Jiro says "Some people have been saying that there's no such a thing as
privacy, or ethics, or whatever. I pointed out (even before the conference)
that if there is _no_ such thing as privacy, then the Furry snooper did not
violate anyone's privacy. We really all do agree that privacy exists, but only
disagree on whether it's granted only from the wizards, or whether there's
something inherent."

Tygress goes home.

Tygress has left.

Cinnamon says "Everyone, PLEASE."

Lanya bows, and leaves.

Lanya goes home.

Lanya has left.

Grump raises hand

Jiro says "Next, we get claims like "well, can't the god do whatever he
wants"?"

KeyLime is after Jiro, when Jiro concludes, according to Zalcor, Grump.

Deepthought has disconnected.

Jiro says "Of course, if "can" means "you can't prevent it", true. As for
ethics, I can think of some extreme scenarios: imagine a god spying on a
private conversation to find out that someone is gay, then mailing a log to
the person's employer."

Jonny has arrived.

Jonny waves

Jiro says "I wouldn't think even a disclaimer would rule out something like
that being unethical."

TinyTIM has disconnected.

WHO
Player Name        On For Idle  Admins: #2453 and 'out'. Others: #2453.
Jonny               00:01   9s  
Sebkha              00:09  19s  
Amberyl             00:12  14s  
Minupla             00:15   2m  
andy                00:16  45s  
Natsu_Shrai         00:16   5s  
Coine-3             00:17  14m  ParanoiaMUSH
Wisteria            00:17  18s  
Harry               00:18  30s  
Druid               00:18   1m  Admin: DruidMuck
wapini              00:18   4m  
JimB                00:19  15m  Admin: The Neverlands
Jumpin              00:21  23s  
Eastern             00:21  41s  
Pallando            00:21  16s  Rep: LR
JoeFeedback         00:22   3m  
Savah               00:22   3m  
Tamzen              00:23  47s  me=Admin The Dreamtime
Foolsbane           00:23  22m  
Erienne             00:23  11s  
Marc                00:24   4s  rep:Fantasia UK Sarc
Bedouin             00:24  24m  
zalcor              00:25  36s  
levia               00:25   4m  
China_Blue          00:26  30s  
Ehlrick             00:26   1m  Rep: Starfire & SillMUSH (was: Jerhevon)
Howard              00:25   2m  
huma                00:26   5m  
auzzie              00:26   4m  
galahalt            00:26   4m  REP: Frontier
Earendil            00:26  35s  Rep: Flesh&Blood ARCH
Grump               00:27  43s  me=LambdaMOO
Jiro                00:26   7s  Rep: Lunacy
Sam                 00:27   3m  
Buddha              00:27   3m  Admin: TMI-2 (MudOS)
Xibo                00:27   5s  rep of SpaceMadness and admin of (EVIL!)
Cinnamon            00:26   2m  Furry and Watermark Rep.
traumahound         00:27   1s  
Nightingale         00:26   1m  Admin: The Dreamtime.
Forlock             00:28   7s  Rep: Lambda Realms LPmud NightmareLP
KeyLime             00:28   0s  MasqueMUCK Admin
Duckula             00:30   1m  
Hermit              00:32   4m  Rep: Narnia MUSH
Jerrod              00:32   1m  
44 Players logged in.

l
Conference Room
This is the conference room for the wizard ethics / player rights discussion.
Only representatives should be here.
Contents:
Jonny
auzzie
Coine-3
Druid
JimB
Hermit
Eastern
Nightingale
Pallando
Tamzen
Amberyl
Savah
Foolsbane

Buddha
JoeFeedback
Grump
zalcor
Duckula
Jerrod
Cinnamon
galahalt
levia
Bedouin
China_Blue
Sam
traumahound
Ehlrick
huma
Jiro
Forlock
Howard
KeyLime
Earendil
Xibo
Obvious exits:
Out  

Eastern Raises hand to speak

Cinnamon raises his hand to speak.

Buddha raises his hand, again.

KeyLime <-- NEXT

Forlock raises his hand for the second time.

Amberyl says "WHISPER to Zalcor if you want to speak."

Announcement: Jerrod shouts "lemme check how I changed admin in the conf"

Jiro says "In fact, I'm not really sure a disclaimer does much at all. If the
purpose is to tell people that you can't guarantee anything, well, that should
be obvious...."

Jiro says "And if the purpose is to let the gods off the hook in a really
extreme situation, well, I just pointed out it doesn't."

Chaos has arrived.

zalcor says "Ok, here's the queue. Whisper if I'm in error: Keylime, Jerrod,
Grump, Easter, Cinnamon, Forlock"

Jiro says "So you have a merely questionable act. Not considered innocuous by
everyone, but also not so blatantly out of line that people will not say 'he's
a god, he does whatever he wants'."

zalcor says "Budda, THEN Forlock"

Jonny has disconnected.

Jiro says "And all we're really arguing over is where to draw the line, not
whether there is a line."

Jerrod shouts "I just set Zalcor and Jiro so they ONLY can Speak"

Addey has arrived.

Jiro says "As for the issue of players snooping and stuff:"

Deth has arrived.

Howard says ""

Jiro says "The main difference is that a lot more people agree a lot more
closely on where the line goes."

Hermit has disconnected.

Druid 

Jiro says "The question that usually comes up in my mind is what the goids get
to do in order to catch the players."

Dethargh!

KeyLime goids?

Druid says "I move that there be a limit on how long someone can talk."

Jiro would suggest, at least, that if you find someone _innocent_, you tell
them, and you apologize. You get lots fewer fishing expeditions and vendettas
that way, since the gods dfon't want to be seen as snooping too many innocent
players.

DethLATE! come to voice opinoins and cant even talk!

Jiro says "I probably have more to say, but that will have to be it for now."

Nicky has arrived.

zalcor says "OK"

KeyLime says, "My turn now, Jerrod? Zalcor?"

zalcor says "I propose a 3 minute limit. Sound good?"

Sam goes home.

Sam has left.

Eastern nods

Cinnamon nods.

JimB says "Yes."

galahalt agrees

levia nods.

zalcor says "KeyLime, you have the floor"

Forlock agrees.

Deth has disconnected.

Addey has disconnected.

Grump nods

KeyLime explains, "The basic gist of it is this: it's muddy and murky whenever
you discuss the issue of people being inviolate. I believe that a SIMPLE
statement works better than a statement with lots of sub-parts and codicils.
No matter how hard you try, you're going to miss out on certain situations."

Savah has disconnected.

KeyLime continues, "hence, a statement such as 'Welcome to our mud. Don't
snoop on other people. We'll frown on this and @toad people who spy or snoop
for malicious reasons, with #1 as the final arbiter. The wizards may snoop on
you in response to complaints, if they get suspicious, or if they feel you may
be acting to damage the DB. Other than that, we're going to leave you alone.
Enjoy the MUD."

KeyLime shrugs. "Any more than that, and you open things up to the
self-appointed lawyers. And there will always be such."

KeyLime says "I'm done"

Forlock respectfully interjects with a quick request "please keep the lines
under 4.5 lines long, or my telnet barfs"

Jonny has connected.

fizban has arrived.

zalcor says "Ok, who was next? Lost the list :("

Eastern chuckles

KeyLime says "Jerrod"

JoeFeedback | zalcor says "Ok, here's the queue. Whisper if I'm in error:
Keylime, Jerrod, Grump, Easter, Cinnamon, Forlock"

zalcor says "Ok, Jerrod has the floor"

Druid finds that: Player Harrasment will result in @toading. works much
better.

Jerrod says "allow someone else to go, for nowe."

Jerrod says "sheesh"

zalcor says "Grump?"

Grump says "On Lambda, we got rid of the wizards rights to be 'final arbitors"

Grump says "settling disputes between players over who harassed whom just got
to be overwhelming"

Grump says "too many players and it was inappropriate"

Howard says "Well, this has been as productive as I thought it would be. I'm
gonna catch some sleep. Good night."

Grump says "we thought perhaps some kind of voting mechanism would arise where
offending players could be dealt with, but it hasn't come to that"

Jerrod has reconnected.

Keelah has arrived.

China_Blue has left.

Grump says "the major issue for me has been: when is it OK to reveal a players
connect site information"

Howard goes home.

Howard has left.

Grump says "or even to acknowledge it"

China_Blue has arrived.

traumahound whispers "no. like i'd want to READ this crap later? ;-)"

Grump says "we've operated under the principle that players were anonymous and
that connect information was secret"

Grump says "in cases of cracking, or severe harassment, however, should that
information be used?"

zalcor says "30 seconds"

China_Blue goes home.

China_Blue has left.

Grump says "it's more than just spying, the 'right ot privacy' and it does
intrude on real life"

Jerrod has partially disconnected.

Grump is done for now

zalcor says "Ok. Eastern?"

Eastern nods

Eastern says "i liked the idea of letting players know when they have been
watched and the apology"

zalcor says "You have the floor, Eastern"

Keelah has left.

Eastern says "that is great an i feel it would help the players and wizards on
that issue"

Eastern says "put the disclaimer on the login screen and let them know"

Jerrod has reconnected.

You whisper "add traumahound and myself to the queue, if you would, in that
order" to zalcor.

Eastern says "too much has happened with the news with the printing of logs,
because a wizard felt it was a god given right"

Eastern says "i am sorry that doesnt wash with me."

Jonny has disconnected.

Eastern says "i dont spy and i dont like it. The players i have dealt with
have been pretty honest and upfront"

You whisper "the logs that were printed were logged by players, not wizards."
to Eastern.

Eastern says "fine mischief makers are part of life"

zalcor says "30 seconds"

Eastern says "we can use the @toading when necessarry"

Eastern is done

zalcor says "Ok. Cinnamon has the floor"

Cinnamon thanks.

Cinnamon says "Okay. First, I would like to respond to Druid's point about if
you think you're being spied on. If I think I am being spied on any MUCK, I
will most definately leave. But I don''t feel it's ethical, or fair, to think
that a user has to be able to know he is being watched in order to expect
action to be taken against it."

Cinnamon says "If a wiz is going to promise to try and protect player's
privacy, it's their responsibility to stick to it. If they make no such
promises, they should POINT THAT OUT."

Cinnamon says "On Furry, we DO have a lot of rules, I'll agree with that. Many
of them relating to prviacy, to a player's rights."

Cinnamon says "But as we all (mooslty) afgree, a player has no inherent
rights. They have what is given to them."

zalcor says "30 seconds"

KeyLime moos solemnly.

JimB goes home.

JimB has left.

zalcor says "Ok, Cinnamon, 3 minute sis up..."

You whisper "go to it" to Buddha.

Comrade has arrived.

Cinnamon says "And, rmemberm, Furry is huge. 50 connects is a slow weekday
morning for us. More often, 80-110 connects is common during peak hours. And
the sheer amount of interaction between people is such that we need a LOT of
rules as dozens of more issues than many of you ever have to deal with come
up. To the forefront. Done."

zalcor says "Buddha has the floor"

Ehlrick turns around as if looking for somebody.
The air goes still and the light grows dim.
Suddenly, with a loud **KEE-RACK** a lighting bolt comes down from the sky
stricking the spot where he stood.
It sits their cracking for a moment then streaks off in a nearly straight
line.
Ehlrick has left.

Buddha sighs.

Buddha says "testing"

Buddha says "ah, here we go."

Buddha says "thanks."

Buddha says "okay, something that I'd like to do, first of all, is to point
out that we have people from several types of MU*s here.... which can create a
little confusion"

Chaos goes home.

Chaos has left.

Buddha says "I'd very much like to be able to apply some of the results of
this conference to my own type of MUDs, that is the LP/MudOS realm... and so
some of the terminology you use, and I use, may seem a little confusing"

Buddha says "in any case, let's try to separate the issues of breaking "game
rules" from ethical violations"

zalcor says "30 seconds"

Jerrod suddenly opens a door in the floor and hops in, closing the door behind
him.

Jerrod suddenly climbs out of a trapdoor in the floor that was not there a
moment ago.

Buddha sighs. 3 minutes??

Jonny has connected.

Buddha says "We have on TMI-2, a "help rules" which explains the various
ethical guidelines"

zalcor says "Ok, 3 minutes..."

Forlock wonders what's going on..

Eastern has to leave

Buddha says "is my time up?"

Eastern goes home.

Eastern has left.

zalcor says "Forlock has the floor"

Forlock says "otesting"

Forlock says "arg, now lag"

Forlock says "ok, now, let me explain some of what Buddha was getting at"

Forlock says "basically, the differences between our two kinds of MUDS make it
very difficult to compare them"

Forlock says "so what we need to do is spend more time on the ethics, and less
on the ways of violating them"

Forlock says "I believe the ethics, in this situation, is how much you can
actually see, and how much of that you can reveal"

Forlock says "admins, generally, watch whatever they want"

Forlock says "we need to consider if this is really correct or not, depending
on the 'level' of the admin"

Forlock says "such as, what a wizard can see as compared to a 'god'"

Forlock says "and how much of this can actually be revealed"

Forlock says "it seems to be wizsards will occaisonally stumble over private
conversation in an attempt to defend their MUDS"

Nicky goes home.

Nicky has left.

Forlock says "or arches, depending on your MUD type"

zalcor says "30 seconds"

Forlock says "so, the ethics revolves around how much of this can remain
private, and what can actually be used against you."

Buddha grins.

Forlock says "done"

KeyLime says "levia?"

levia says "thanks"

Jopsy has arrived.

zalcor says "No"

zalcor says "Galahalt, I believe"

Buddha wonders if Pallando will ever speak?

Cinnamon says "It's Buddha, Zalcor."

Vasudeva has arrived.

KeyLime says "zalcor, sometime back you said "buddha, then levia"

Druid says "What is the current list?"

KeyLime says "buddha, then forlock, then levia"


galahalt says "i'll wait for levia."

Vasudeva agreees with everything Xibo says.

Cinnamon says "Er, Lavia."

KeyLime says "and after levia you said traumahound"

zalcor says "The list was corrected. Galahalt is next, then Levia."

KeyLime sighs.

galahalt says "all right, then..."

KeyLime says "keep saying the queue each time then so we know where it stands"

zalcor nods, ok

zalcor says "The queue is:"

zalcor says "galahalt, Levia, traumahound, KeyLime, Me, Druid, Jerrod,
Comrade"

galahalt says "first of all... i'm from an lpmud, so what i say doesn't apply
to all other types of muds, necessarily..."

galahalt says "i feel that what we first must do is decide what we feel is
ethical behavior"

galahalt says "and then we can tell what is unethical."

auzzie goes home.

auzzie has left.

galahalt says "ethical behavior is not abusing privilages."

Vasudeva is LAGGED SEVERLY.

galahalt says "ethical behavior is not spying on innocent people"

galahalt says "how does one defince innocent?"

galahalt says "an innocent person is one that has not been abusive"

galahalt says "in language"

galahalt says "in acts"

Duckula goes home.

Duckula has left.

galahalt says "the way that the person acts..."

zalcor says "30 seconds"

galahalt says "i don't feel that it's hard to tell if a person is offensive...
just use common knowledge..."

galahalt says "i yield the rest of my time for now..."

zalcor says "Ok, Levia has the floor"

levia says "Thanks. I am hearing 3 sets of issues here."

Cinnamon asks for list said?

levia says "1) Stuff external to the mush environment. Logging and publishing
the log; revealing connect site; rl harrassment begun in vr."

levia says "2) Ethical concerns that apply to all of cyberspace. What is
spying? How are players, wizards and gods accountable and to whom?"

levia says "3) Particular problems that apply to individual types of MU*s.
This includes enforcement."

levia says "These get muddied up, these issues, and that seems to have led to
some of the confusion."

levia says "done"

KeyLime says "traumapuppy?"

zalcor says "Ok. Traumahound has the floor"

KeyLime scritches da hound

traumahound smiles mischeveously and clears his throat.

traumahound says "like i posted to the net, i don't think the problem is that
wizards like to spy on people and don't know that it's wrong."

traumahound turns to Zalcor and says, "in deference to your experience, i've
found that PLAYERS are as often the source of privacy violations as else-
where."

traumahound says "our statement of _resolve_ to be nice is meaningless without
specific ... _rules_ for lack of a better word ... that i, as a wizard, can
point to when a player, (or fellow wizard) violates.""

traumahound says "i don't believe in absolute rights or ethics, i just want a
standard set of privileges that i can expect on logging into a MU*. as is now,
i have none. anywhere."

traumahound says "any MU* that VOLUNTARILY adopts this and is publicly
aknowledged to follow it will get _MY_ business. that's all."

traumahound says "some suggestions for the format and tone of the rules _I_
would like to see on a MU* i played or wizzed on:"

traumahound says "1) the following privileges are only to be revoked on
permission of the #1 wizard, even by other wizards."

traumahound says "2) players have the privilege of a private communication
channel to other player that will not be overheard by any other players, on
penalty of removal. give the name of it: e.g. 'page'"

traumahound says "3) player here have the privilege of avoiding other specific
players by choice. When publicly requested, any player must stop communication
with the requestor, and not follow him/her."

Tamzen applaudes.

KeyLime says "done?"

traumahound says "4) players here have the privilege of advancement. No player
will be held back from advancement for non-technical or logistical reasons."

traumahound says "old-boy networks are bad."

traumahound shrugs and says, "i have more, but that's the gist i would like to
see on a MU* i played on."

Zalcor says "Ok. HeyLime has the floor"

KeyLime says "who?"

Druid says "HeyLime."

KeyLime says "oh, me."

KeyLime says "Okay."

KeyLime says "I agree with what has been said about basic issues is good.
Ethics and all that is one issue, MUD-specific stuff is another issue, VR/RL
conflicts is a third."

fizban goes home.

fizban has left.

KeyLime says "I agree with traumahound's reasoning, up to #4. I don't quite
see where advancement comes into it. If #1 wants to make his beer buddies
wizards, that's fine by me."

KeyLime says "But basically, I think that the MAIN dichotomy is this: ethics
on one side, actual "we've got some ratfinks out there, how do we control the
ratfinks without giving the rest of the players a raw deal?""

galahalt has disconnected.

traumahound grins and says, "scratch my #4 ... KL and Amberyl are right."

KeyLime says "and when you get right down to it, you often (as a wizard) have
a pretty good idea of who the ratfinks are without having actual evidence. For
example, I figured out who the culprits on FurryMUCK were and I wasn't even a
wizard. Don't get upset when a wizard invokes some mysterious gut feeling he
had when he spied on someone."

Vasudeva has disconnected.

KeyLime says "basically, I think it should be an accepted rule that you don't
get spied on without cause, but that cause can be murky but usually involves
harassing or spying on other players. When that seems to be happening,
investigations should be kept private until concluded."

KeyLime says "once the investigation is concluded, I rather think the results
should be made public so people don't go on trusting someone who betrayed them
or spied on them."

Zalcor checks his watch. Ooops, 3 mis are up

KeyLime says "so when all is said and done, keep the two issues separate."

KeyLime bows.

Zalcor says "Ok, I have the floor"

galahalt has connected.

Zalcor says "Many of the posts on UseNet show this"

Zalcor says "The issue is simple. People on MU*s can get hurt"

Zalcor says "What can we, as admins, do to help minimize this?"

Zalcor says "Spying is not only a violation of a person's basic humanity <--
Opinion here :)"

Zalcor says "But it can be damaging. Information can be, and has been,
revealed to the public, which can have rl effects"

Zalcor says "This is my primary concern. BUT if we are talking about respect,
which is what this is, then we must broaden the scope beyond just that issue"

traumahound senses "KeyLime is going to edit this log, issue his own opinions,
then host thta long-delayed wiz conference on Masque if Masque ever comes back
up."

Zalcor Yeilds the floor to Druid

Druid says "Make it simple."


Druid says "Otherwise you get lawyers, like Keylime (just to pull a name out
of a hat) that say, "Well you didn't say that scanners were illegal after
midnight on SUNDAY when used against players whose name begins with the letter
J!""

Coine-3 must leave.

Coine-3 has disconnected.

WhiteFire has arrived.

Druid says "If you outlaw harrassment, and have wizards who are more clueful
than experienced, you won't have a whole lot of problems in the first place."

Druid says "Or at least not in my experience."

Comrade has disconnected.

Druid says "Watch who you give power to, and respect other people. Beyond
that, there really isn't anything else you can guarantee."

Zalcor says "Ok, Jerrod has the floor"

Jerrod nods.

Druid sighs. "It's weird not getting feedback."

Tamzen says "List please?"

Jerrod says "I agree with Traumahoud, I think we do need a set of guidelines."

Jerrod says "I like when things are spelled out."

Jerrod says "Druid has a point about lawyers, but that is, life."

Jerrod says "I think a large peoblem is thet fact that #1 usually is fainal
arbittrator"

Jerrod says "#1 is uaually biased"

Jerrod says "On Narnia I am _trying_ to get a peer/admin jury to resolve any
personal conflicts."

Jerrod would like to see a system like that defined, better.

Zalcor says "30 seconds"

Jerrod says "I guess definition is my things, I yeild"

Comrade has connected.

Zalcor says "Ok, comrade has the floor. Just in time"

JoeFeedback grins.

Druid has left.

Zalcor says "Comrade?"

Comrade ergks

Zalcor says "Ok, sorry, Comrade, try again"

galahalt has disconnected.

Comrade says "Essentially, I think that one of the most basic issues behind
our discussions of ethics is one of property. It tends to be the belief of
most wizards and maintainers of M*s that the wizard has prime control or
censorship over the ueage of _their_ property."

You sense Cinnamon nods.

Comrade says "However, I do not believe that you can claim this generalization
as a true one. Much effort goes into the system by the maintainer, but I would
argue that just as much effort goes into players cooperating in the game as is
put in by the wizard."

Comrade says "I would argue that on a system such as my own (PlayhouseMOO) or
LambdaMOO, where players spend a large chunk of time creating their _own_
property and extending the common environment, or otherwise extending their
character..."

Cinnamon has disconnected.

Comrade says "That they have an equal right to virtual property... that being
their player character..."

Comrade says "Or the objects they have programmed or created.."

Comrade says "I do not think you can call players being on a particular M* a
PRIVILAGE.."

galahalt has connected.

Comrade says "And because of that I don't think wizards have a right to
enforce "ethical" behaviour."

Zalcor says "30 seconds"

Comrade says "I think the role of a wizard should be restricted to that of
janitor or maintainer"

Comrade says "Intervening only when necessary"

Taisia has arrived.

Comrade says "In real life we deal with our problems without aid from "wiz-
ards""

Zalcor says "Ok 3 mins"

Comrade says "We have to deal with someone telling us to fuck off OURSELVES"

Zalcor says "Jiro has the floor"

Jiro says "OK."

Druid has arrived.

Jiro says "First, I'd like to disagree with Comrade at least a bit. Wizards
surely can try to enforce ethical behavior, though I think if they do they
should do fairly (what that means is another topic)."

Tygress has arrived.

Tygress goes home.

Tygress has left.

Cinnamon has disconnected.

Jiro says "And a player's right to his possessions may just mean the right to
take them elsewhere and to not have them plagiarized (like LP muds which steal
code from other LP's)."

Jiro says "About what Druid said before, I agree that if the admin is compe-
tent, most player problems should get handled. I worry, therefore, more about
problems from the wizard side of things."

Jiro says "It may take a different level of competency to admin fairly than to
admin effectively."

Jiro says "(Again, "fairly" is its own topic.)"

Grump blinks

Jiro is done.

Xibo shakes his head, sighing.

Zalcor says "Ok. A small correction (last one, I'm sure). The queue is:"

Zalcor says "pallando, traumahound, forlock, keylime"

KeyLime ?

Zalcor says "Pallando has the floor"

KeyLime thinks that if the queue was stated at each speaker these corrections
wouldn't slip in.

Pallando says "Thanks. I studied philosophy in college and on TMI I ran a
guild discussing these issues."

Pallando says "I have a lot to say. I will try to type fast so please forgive
typos."

Pallando says "we want to produce some numbered proposals at the end of this
to vote on"

Pallando says "lets see if I can't sum up one subject Privacy in a form which
can be voted on"

Pallando says "remember LPMUDs are a lot different so I will try to make a
general point first that may seem trivial to you"

Pallando says "and a second more tiny specifi one after"

Pallando says "OK?"

Pallando says "Proposal #1 - There is nothing wrong with snooping or doing any
thing with that infi, IF THE USER HAS CONSENTED TO THAT"

Zalcor says "30 seconds"

Pallando says "Proposal #2 - In social mushes, etadmins can have a policy of
no snooping excepy ny adnins for mud guard purposes in which case"

Pallando says "it is wrong to snop ecept for that, or to post logs"

Zalcor says "ok, 3 minutes"

Pallando says "I have more to say but I'll wait for anothr tyrn"

Nightingale would like to let Pallasndo continue.

Zalcor says "traumahound has the floor. He'll be followed by forlock, keylime,
and xibo"

traumahound nods

Zalcor says "Any objections to NG's proposal?"

traumahound says "4) a player's name, home (physical and internet), gender,
age, and other specific RL data belong to hir and may only be discovered
through standard means of communication. Any use of DB tools (e.g. programs)
to discover this (by a player) or broadcast it to player (by a wizard) is
forbidden on this MU*"

traumahound says "5) a player here has the privilege of safe zones. ANY
communication in these explicitly designated areas should be treated as
'private' ... similar to 2)"

Xibo objects. go on, th

traumahound says "6) A player has the privilege to give up any stated privi-
lege of his thanks Pallando :-)"

traumahound says "7) A player has the right to communicate freely with any
consenting parties here, as modified by punitive or Role Playing constraints."

traumahound says "once again: the most important thing is: i don't think these
are absolute moral rights ... i just think it would be a useful consumer tool,
to allow me to choose a MU*, and would pick one that ENDORSED these over one
that did not."

traumahound says "Xibo and Druid became quite non-plussed with me at my
suggestion of specific codes that they had to follow. to tell the truth, i
really don't care WHAT they do."

Forlock has to go, I'll turn my time over to Pallando

Forlock has disconnected.

traumahound grins widely and finishes, "it's a consumer thing. i want to know
ahead of time that certain base level of privileges will be offered me before
i waste hours of my time developing my character somewhere. if you DON'T want
to offer these, more power to you. i'll just go somewhere that DOES (within
its power)

traumahound says "oops ... sorry ... automatic /quote ... couldn't stop it.
:-)"

mobydick has arrived.

traumahound says "i'm done ... let Pall go."

"KeyLime says "hey, wait."

Pallando says "Ok thanks folks."

KeyLime says "WAIT"

Druid says "Does this mean that if someone isn't explicitly told these rights,
then they're free from punishment from breaking them?"

Zalcor says "Ok, wait"

KeyLime says "the queue is there for a reason. I object STRONGLY to letting
someone go out of turn just because one or two players said "let him keep
going.""

Pallando says ""

Zalcor says "We'll stick by the queue, or pandemonium will reign again"

traumahound says "i would assume they would be extremely public ... and you'd
be told at login how to read them."

Zalcor says "Forlock has the floor"

traumahound says "ignorance would be no excuse."

traumahound nods

Zalcor says "OOps!"

Pallando says "zalcor - whose fgo?"

Zalcor says "Keylime has the floor"

"KeyLime says "Okay, then."

KeyLime says "One: Comrade is full of beans when he says that admins should be
reduced to janitors or maintainers."

KeyLime says "If we did this, the Async Gang that's run rampant on half the
MUCKs around would STILL be running amuck and infecting places with viruses."

KeyLime says "you MUST act as a policeman or people will soon go nuts fighting
off the hostile players."

Comrade mutters something about using a real server, then.

KeyLime says "and as far as "not having wizards settling crises in real life",
I answer, in real life you don't have people coming into your house invisibly
and listening to everything you say. You also do not have people searching
through your guts looking at all the things inside you. RL is NOT VR. A good
admin WILL keep an eye on people for the betterment of all. To do otherwise is
to invite mayhem."

KeyLime says "Jiro has said that it's wizards you have to watch out for an in
his case, I agree. Jiro was notorious for giving people negative pennies so
they couldn't do anything. For the most part, one must assume that wizards
want people to play on the MU* and not drive them away."

KeyLime says "but if people wnant to argue IF you even should keep an eye on
troublemakers, they're at the wrong conference. What's really under debate
here is HOW you should, or to what extent you should. Assuming that it's
flat-out wrong to do so is just plain nuts. I'm done for now."

Zalcor says "Ok."

Zalcor says "We need dto wind this down. Let's round out the queue, and then
we can move to the final part of the agneda, ok?"

Jiro says "permission to speak out of order to respond to accusation?"

Pallando says "there are two main part we havn't covered zalcor"

Zalcor says "The queue is: Xibo, pallando, whitefire, and nightingale"

KeyLime says "jiro, it's a matter of public record that you recycled people's
possessions and gave them -100000 pennies. Get down off your soapbox and let
Xibo speak."

Xibo will be brief. Ready?

Zalcor says "Why don't you speak at the end of the queue, if no one objects?"

Zalcor says "Xibo has the floor"

Xibo says "I'd like to say a lot of what has been said is a crock."

Xibo says "Maybe it's just rookie wizards confused on how to manage 500+
players..."

Xibo says "Maybe it's just players desiring power over the wizards."

Cinnamon objects. Accusations are not at issue here, and irrelevant.

Xibo says "But face it. All muds are different. You can expect different
privileges and rights on different muds."

Xibo says "This means that no one policy can be good for all muds. Why try to
find such a policy?"

Xibo says "Some of us want players to have NO power. NO rights. Some want to
provide players with a book of laws so they can play lawyer."

Jiro says "Because, Zalcor, it counts against the rest of my time."

Xibo says "But each mud is different and each admin has final say on what
rules, if any, will be in place."

Xibo says "Many wizards of the older muds (2-3 years old) are going to give
the results of this conferences ZERO weight in their future decisions."

Xibo says "Maybe you should wonder why, explore how they run their muds. After
all, they've been doing it longer, they have more experience, they've dealt
with all these problems already. many times."

Xibo says ""

Xibo was brief.

Xibo says "next"

Zalcor says "Ok. Pallando has the floor"

Pallando says "ok thanks"

Pallando says "we have just about covered provacy"

Pallando says "I agree with a lot of what traumahound whsays and think it is a
subdivision of ways players may give upo their right to prvcacy or be granted
it"

Pallando says "the two other main areas of etheic in mud to cover are"

Pallando says "copyright (and I gues, looking at objects in mushes)"

Pallando says "and harassment"

Pallando says "ifg you like I'll try to put a couple of proposals on thsise
jsubjects for"

Pallando says "you to condider amenthding or voting on"

Pallando says "ok zalcor? may I have time to do that?"

Pallando waits for zalcor to answer

Druid says "No."

Druid braces himself.

Zalcor says "You have 1 minute"

Druid sorry.

Druid is/was lagged. That wasn't to Pall.

Pallando says "proposal #3 harassemtn. No harassemnt of users (on sex,
sexualtiyf, etc9 (as poopsode to harassemtn of characters)"

KeyLime says "poopsode?"

Pallando says "porposal #4 copyright"

Pallando says "PLease may I have time to actually say these?"

Pallando says "keylime that was a typo of Proposal"

Zalcor says "Ok, 30 seconds."

KeyLime ohs

Pallando says "p"

Druid thought it was 'opposed'

Cinnamon has disconnected.

Cinnamon has connected.

Pallando says "proposal #4 copyright. The wizard keeps copyright but most
admins will have policy such that the wizard wil agree to give this up on soem
things like sahred mudlib stuff"

Zalcor says "3 minutes are up"

Pallando pages: sorry poopsode was as opposed not proposal

Zalcor says "Whitefilre has the floor"

Zalcor says "Whitefire, sorry"

WhiteFire says "Ok, I strongly disagree with the idea that Wizards are just
janitors for the following reasons:"

WhiteFire says "1) Wizards are responsible for the theme of their M*s, either
chat, roleplay, hack&slash, whatever. They have to do things to uphold this."

WhiteFire says "2) The 'Real World' _HAS_ police, and the wizards are sort of
forced into this role, to preserve the peace."

WhiteFire says "I do not mean by this that Wizards should have the right to
harass players, but they certanly have to take an active role to shape the
system to what they created it to be."

WhiteFire says "On 'copyrights', of characters, sure, of public building, hell
no. Everything inbetween is up to the wizzes of that system."

cia has arrived.

cia waves

Zalcor says "30 seconds"

WhiteFire says "On trying to make a set of rules or guidlines to pass here: It
will not work. Systems are to individual, they HAVE to be, least they be
clones of each other."

You whisper "Considering that you and I get along like sodium and water, you
actually seem to have made some sense." to WhiteFire.

Raxas has arrived.

WhiteFire says "Try and imagin Space Madnness with a no harassment policy."

WhiteFire is done.

Zalcor says "Ok. Nightingale has the floor"

Raxas goes home.

Raxas has left.

Druid says "Different def of harassment."

Nightingale says "I think that one thing that Admins/Implementors should do is
to build better security into the system. On ErisMUCK/The Dreamtime, we have a
better security system than any MUCK I know, and maybe even better than a MOO.
Yeah, I'm bragging, but I've offered my security system to the other MUCK
devos for a couple years, and no one ever really wants it."

Nightingale says "If you build a better server -- not perfect, just better --
than it helps. All you have to make it is good enough that it can't be abused
by accident. We have the rule that just because you can do something doesn't
mean you *should*. Just because I can throw a brick through a plate glass
window, doesn't mean I should."

Nightingale says "We give as much anonymity as we can, but we also have to
have accountability. This means that we have to know -- as admins -- who every
player is IRL. However, we guard this tightly. I add that we have a different
problem than most people here, because we are on a corporate network and must
by policy have accountability and guarantee "respect" of other players."

Nightingale says "For example, gay-bashing, sexual harassment, racial bashing,
etc. are not just against our policy, but against the company policies. People
have been fired for gay-bashing. Not in the MUCK, but IRL. So we have external
standards to maintain."

mobydick has disconnected.

Nightingale says "Lastly, while I like the standards proposed and like to
think we live up to them, I don't think they're rights. I liked tramahound
calling them privs. I *want* to be able to have people be comfortable, but
it's my machine, and I'm responsible for what goes on there. So that means
that what I say goes. Period."

Zalcor says "30 seconds"

Nightingale says "I guess that means that I am a dictator, but an enlightened
despot."

Nightingale is done.

Zalcor says "Ok"

Zalcor says "At this point, Jiro would like a chance to make a brief comment,
if no one objects..."

Cinnamon has disconnected.

Zalcor says "Jiro?"

Jiro says "Of course it's a matter of record I recycled possessions and gave
people negative pennies. Person, rather. Keylime specificially. I can be as
mean as Random Gang-type wizards to doofs. End of brief statement."

Zalcor says "Ok"

Grump says "I have something to add"

KeyLime smirks.

Zalcor says "Objections?"

Zalcor nods

Grump says "when LambdaMOO with to 'no wizard intervention', I spent some time
researching..."

Grump says "There are some very interesting archives at ftp.eff.org"

Grump says "or you can gopher them at gopher.eff.org, the Electronic Frontier
Foundation"

Zalcor says "Ah, thank you, Grump, that can be valuable"

Grump says "Most of the things that I thought were relevant were the case law
around the rights and resposibiliities of BBS operators"

Grump says "Now, a MUD isn't a BBS, but the sysadmin of a BBS and the adminis-
trator of a MUD have a lot in common"

Cinnamon has connected.

traumahound sets down a 'proposal' on the table listing a short list of
_PRIVILEGES_ he would prefer to have on a MU* he chose.

l proposal
1) the following privileges are only to be revoked on permission of the #1
wizard, even by other wizards. The player has the privilege to give up any of
these, in relation to him/herself. 

(2) players have the privilege of private communication channels to other
players that will not be overheard by anyone, on penalty of removal from the
MU*. 

(3) players here have the privilege of avoiding other specific players by
choice. When publicly requested, any player must cease communication with the
requestor, and not follow him/her. This prevents harrassment while allowing
In-Character roleplaying jerks. 

(4) a player's name, home (physical and internet), gender, age, and any other
specific RL data belong to him/her and may only be discovered through standard
means of communication. Any use of DB tools (e.g. programs) to discover this
(by a player) or broadcast it to a player (by a wizard) is forbidden on this
MU* 

(5) a player here has the privilege of safe zones. ANY communication in these
explicitly designated areas should be treated as 'private' ... similar to #2. 

(6) A player has the privilege of unrestricted communication with any other
consenting party, as modified by punitive or Role Playing constraints. 

(7) THESE ARE VOLUNTARY _PRIVILEGES_ OF THIS MU*, ALLOWING YOU TO MAKE AN
INFORMED DECISION WHERE YOU WANT TO WASTE YOUR TIME. INTENTIONAL VIOLATION
WILL BE DEALT WITH MOST HARSHLY.

Zalcor says "Ok, I'd like to ask Levia to summarize, before we move on
here..."

Zalcor says "Levia?"

Buddha wonders what we move on to.

levia says "Phew. OK, first a caveat: I took notes. By hand. When I could keep
track. I don't have a log. This is just my head."

levia says "We all agree (isn't it amazing) that Privacy and Harrassment are
loaded words. Everyone reacts to them. We do not agree on what they mean"

levia says "Not yet"

KeyLime tips traumahound over. traumahound moos irritably.

levia says "We also agree that privacy is, in practice, at the discretion of
the admin of the MU*"

levia says "But it would be good if players could know what the admin thinks
privacy means in his/her MU*"

levia says "We agree that specifics and enforcement are individual to MU* type
and further to each admin"

Comrade would like to express his agreement with Nightingale in the issue of
server enchancement. It seems that the M* world is not taking a big enough
step in the direction of building more secure, flexible servers. It seems to
me that development of new radical servers is sort of limited to the people
revolving around the MOO/CoolMUD camps...

KeyLime says "and frankly, Comrade, they can keep their radical servers"

levia says "We are unclear what "abuse of power" entails."

KeyLime says "since they pay no attention to the way players are used to doing
things."

levia says "some basic principles have been suggested - I didn't write 'em
down. they're in the log"

Nightingale raises a hand.

levia says "There is some confusion about Laws vs Principles that hasn't been
sorted out yet."

Comrade would like to point out that the last emote was an accident.

levia says "Also some confusion about what the role of a wizard is. This may
not be too germane to the discussion, tho. Done."

Zalcor says "OK."

traumahound says "Comrade ... weakening a player's creative power isn't the
ideal solution."

Zalcor says "As we expected, this cannot be resolved tonight"

Zalcor says "I think we did good, after the initial chaos died down"

Zalcor says "I'd like to use this time to set future dates for other confer-
ences, determine the form they will take, etc.."

Buddha raises his hand.

galahalt raises his hand also

Zalcor says "Galahalt suggests making a rough outline for the statement. I
think this is a good idea"

Druid has disconnected.

Zalcor says "Buddha?"

Buddha says "thanks..."

Buddha says "I think at this point, I'd like to express a little touch of
disappointment."

Buddha says "we really have only scratched the surface"

KeyLime says "what did you expect?"

JoeFeedback hastago, if documents are going to be made available please send
to eostrom@nic.gac.edu telling me where they'll be.

JoeFeedback has disconnected.

Xibo says "you didn't seriously expect we'd agree on a policy, did you?"

galahalt says "i feel that we can... given a little more time."

Buddha says "You're right, I don't think I expected anything more organized.
However, I really would have liked to see parliamentary procedure started and
followed earlier on"

Buddha says "also, the three minute limits were really annoying"

Zalcor says "Yes, you're right"

KeyLime says "even in the most streamlined bureaucracy, one meeting with
everyone squabbling and presenting their views doesn't resolve anything."

Cinnamon agrees.

Buddha says "for future sessions, I'd like to see some smaller groups"

KeyLime says "now everyone can go away, come back, and have their thoughts
worked out"

Cinnamon says "With Buddha. We need more time."

Buddha says "presenting some prepared material"

KeyLime says "this is why you have contentious initial meetings."

Cinnamon nods.

galahalt says "pehaps it would be possible to seperate into groups, based on
the MU* you're admin on (mush, muck, moo, lp's, etc)"

Grump says "I'd like to see a set of current 'wizard' policies"

KeyLime says "it gets the garbage out of the way now."

traumahound says "for future sessions, i'd like to see prepared THINGS and
PROPOSALS for us to discuss ... writing a creative document via. a committee
is a logistical impossibility."

Xibo has suggestion: rec.games.mud is a better forum for this discussion. You
can spend as much time composing your argument as you want, and no one's going
to interupt.

Buddha says "I think on one level, it is a little much to assume we could come
up with Grand unified theory"

Cinnamon has disconnected.

KeyLime says "MUSH and MUCK can talk about a lot of things together. The MOO
cretins can cheerfully go jump in a lake and discuss their wonderful servers
by themselves."

Zalcor says "OKOK"

WhiteFire thinks the breakdown should be more by Roleplay/Gaming/Social...

Tamzen says "Might I suggest a mailing list or newsgroup would be a place to
start. Everyone could post their current set of rules/guidelines."

Buddha says "however, with some intensive work and cooperation, I think we can
come up with some real stuff"

Grump nods to Tamzen

Xibo nods to Tamzen.

Zalcor says "Ok, hush up everyone"

galahalt agrees with buddha

Buddha says "an important point is the game vs. cyberspace issue"

Xibo says "We need a new newsgroup. rec.games.mud.policy. KeyLime?"

Buddha says "can I finish?"

Cinnamon has connected.

Zalcor says "Yes"

Taisia says "One thing I think would be nice if _we_ as wizards at least can
give our fellow wizards respect for whatever policies they choose for their
mucks...you may not agree but at least not harass each oterh for decisions
made."

traumahound whispers "we need Ross Perot ... HE'D get things done."

KeyLime nods. "Feeling as though Wizard A is a Nazi for doing things his way
is a fast way to mung any discussion up."

Buddha says "since I run an LP derivative with no players, I see both sides of
some of the problem... on TMI, every user was incredibly powerful, and we had
a lot of problems... it was almost all out war"

Nightingale agrees thoroughly with KeyLime.

Jiro hehs.

Buddha says "surely, the solutions aren't going to be the same for each mud,
and the lines aren't always drawn by what server we use"

Jerrod says "hey, I am tired, yer tired, we all tired, let's just adjorn the
discussion to rec.games.admin"

Zalcor says "Buddha, please wrap it up///"

levia has disconnected.

levia has connected.

Zalcor says "cia had a worthwhile suggestion..."

Buddha says "I think I'm finished.... I know that the MudOS group will be
holding additional meetings in the future... I'll extend the invitation, if
you feel this subject isn't conclusively dealt with."

Buddha nods.

WhiteFire says "rec.games.mud.admin would be good, and best modertated."

cia says "I offer to set up a mail list/exploder for the group"

Xibo says "fuck moderated"

Zalcor would be disappointed in using UseNet

Buddha says "I think these meetings are good."

traumahound smiles and says, "bureaucracy in 'action' ... write planks that
you'd like to see in effect SOMEWHERE, folks. and ask yourself what they would
CHANGE if publicly implemented. good night."

traumahound bows

traumahound has disconnected.

Xibo says "Usenet is awesome. People who Believe in what they say will
persevere."

Cinnamon says "Mailinglist would be a GOOD idea!"

Buddha says "maybe if we hold them on a different type of mud each time ;-)"

KeyLime says "Xibo is Not Allowed!"

KeyLime says "mailing lists suck."

Zalcor says "Yes, I like the mailing list"

Jiro says "We need a moderated group."

Jiro says "Or a list, yes."

Xibo says "KeyLime must newgroup rec.games.mud.policy"

Cinnamon says "Moderated by who?"

KeyLime says "you have a tiny audience and you don't get the public airing
they need."

Nightingale agrees wutg a mailing list.

Earendil agrees mailing list

Xibo says "mailing list is a dumb idea. It'll sound like a private think tank
that most people never heard of."

galahalt also agrees.

KeyLime says "sure, guys, go off to the mailing list. Then blink in startled
confusion when the MUD world disagrees with your conclusions because 99% of
them didn't hear them."

Comrade would like to point out that he is a "cretin" unable to understand
"common sense" so you shouldn't listen to him.

Taisia likes the mailing list idea best.

cia will NOT moderate a list - only make his mailer available - I do not want
the responsibility of editing out others thoughts

Jiro says "If you _don't_ have it moderated, you get the usenet equivalent of
the situation we had here at the start: each of 20 people decides to make one
little sarcastic joke. After all, how much disruption is one joke?"

Xibo says "usenet is better. opinions out in the OPEN. PUBLIC. no secrets"

Buddha says "I think meetings, revolving from mud to mud, would be really
cool."

KeyLime says "fine, guys, but again, no one's gonna have heard of you and
you're gonna get ignored."

Tamzen says "We can hash things out in a mailing list and then present things
to said chosen newsgroup. Best of both world."

Jerrod says "Xibo has a point."

Zalcor says "HOLD ON!!"

KeyLime says "Xibo and I will quietly discuss things on USENET. When you get
done, we'll have wrapped things up long ago. Bye."

Jiro says "Open discussion is better, but how do you keep the disruptors out?
You can't, and too many of them are already known to exist."

Zalcor says "A combination is probably best"

KeyLime says "I mean, you can discuss things with 45000 people, or with 28."

Xibo says "The disruptors will TIRE."

KeyLime says "take your pick."

Xibo can outlast 'em.

Zalcor says "UseNet is fine as far as it goes, so is meeting, and a list"

Jiro says "Xibo, last time we had lots of disruption, it lasted a loooooooong
time."

levia says "Yes; they're not mutually exclusive"

KeyLime declines to be on the list. Have fun, y'all. We'll be on USENET if you
want to find us.

Grump says "I thought the proposal was to post facts: current policies, and
then meet again"

Buddha says "I don't know if we can come up with some grand doctrine of mud
ethics, or just some nice discussion out of it all..."

Jiro says "And you still see Random posting merely so as to get 1 line
sarcastic comments in."

Zalcor says "I will assemble a list, and let everyone know when it's ready."

KeyLime says "Jiro, you Neanderthal, that's what the N key is for."

Xibo says "but here we can't even agree what we're supposed to be talking
about."

Xibo says "on USENET you can have separate threads for each topic."

Zalcor says "SHUT UP!!!!!"

Cinnamon says "Can we keep the insults to a negative level, please, KeyLime?"

KeyLime says "If you can't deal with smarmy people objecting to what you say,
don't read on USENET."

Cinnamon shuts up.

Zalcor says "Keylime, Xibo, SHUT UP"

KeyLime says "Xibo, sounds like the thought police have stepped in. Shall we?"

KeyLime has disconnected.
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.admin