HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: kuchar@buast7.bu.edu (Tom Kuchar)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.swimming,rec.sport.triathlon
Subject: Open water swimming - strategy
Date: 1 Sep 92 18:45:14 GMT
Followup-To: rec.sport.swimming
Distribution: na
Organization: Astronomy Department, Boston University, Boston, MA, USA
Originator: kuchar@buast7.bu.edu


I've been involved in a masters swim program this summer, in training
for my first triathlon in a few weeks.  Although I feel really
comfortable swimming in a pool, I have virtually no experience in open
water swims, let alone a couple dozen people around me. Can the experts
here give some advice to a novice?  

For the past few weeks I've been swimming in a large pond (Walden
Pond, for those familiar with the area). I have two questions from
this experience:

	1) I have problems maintaining a direction.  I think this may
           not be a problem in the actual race, since the course will
           be marked and I can see where others are going. Am I correct?

	2) Although Walden Pond has very little current to speak of,
	   how does one deal with currents and wind, for that matter,
	   in a plan of attack and pacing?

These questions concern me now. Since I have not actually competed
in a race, there may be other issues I should be considering. Again,
any help is appreciated.


-- 
Tom Kuchar			  
kuchar@buast7.bu.edu		  -or-                      kuchar@plh.af.mil
Department of Astronomy		                     Phillips Laboratory/GPOB
Boston Univerity		                                  Hanscom AFB
From: alan@techlaw.ogi.edu
Newsgroups: rec.sport.swimming
Subject: Flip Turn Summary
Date: 2 Sep 92 00:57:17 GMT
Article-I.D.: techlaw.1992Sep2.005717.2116
Organization: MARGER JOHNSON McCOLLOM & STOLOWITZ Inc, Portland OR

Thanks to all those responding to my request for information about how to learn  
and perform a flip turn.  I received a number of valuable pointers, a sumary of  
which follows:

    1.	Don't slow down as you approach the wall.  Look at the wall the last  
2-3 strokes and don't take a breath during these strokes.  If necessary, make  
your last stroke a half stroke to maintain speed.  

    2.	The last stroke should leave you with both arms at your sides.  Throw  
your head down and perform a dolphin kick to start the turn.  You should assume  
a tuck position to turn as fast as possible although some advocate more of a  
pike position.  Be sure to keep knees together.

    3.	As you arrive on your back, arms and legs should extend with palms  
being pointed toward the bottom of the pool.  One person described the hand  
motion as leaning over a pool and splashing water over the back of your head.   
This motion with palms down pulls the head up in preparation for the push off.

    4.	Don't start to turn with your feed on the wall; push off first and then  
rotate.  Streamline with head between arms, face down, body extended, feet  
pointed.  When first learning, flip so that you are on your back.  You must do  
a full 1/2 twist to resume swimming orientation.  After some experience,  
twisting turning the flip will land you on the wall part way through the  
rotation leaving less twisting after pushing off.

    5.	Take your first stroke off the wall with the lowest arm.  This helps in  
completing the twist.  Take at least two strokes before taking the first  
breath.

	I have email with more detail I will forward to anyone who wants it.   
Also, please post any additional suggestions or comments.  

Alan

---
Marger Johnson McCollom & Stolowitz Inc.	
	Patent Attorneys & Technology Lawyers	
Portland, Oregon
Internet: 	alan@techlaw.com



				
Newsgroups: rec.sport.swimming
From: tolar@ssdt-tempe.sps.mot.com (Jim Tolar)
Subject: Re: Stroke Instruction
Keywords: Stroke Instruction
Organization: Semiconductor Systems Design Technology, Motorola, Tempe AZ
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 18:44:38 GMT

In article <Bto0sq.6Cn@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> hamilton@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (hamilton russell j) writes:
>                                                 I have been told by a 
>  number of other parents that my daughter's stroke mechanics have some
>  major flaws.  Neither my wife nor I have ever swam competitively, so
>  I assume that they are right.  
>

Russ,
 After following your daughter's swimming for 5 years, you should know by now
that there are few groups more opinionated than swim parents. ;-)
I suggest that you and your daughter talk with her coach to discuss her
strokes, her goals and the best means to accomplish them.  If you or she
don't feel comfortable discussing the subject of private stroke lessons with
her current team coach, then you ought to find a new coach.  Let your coach
do what he or she is being paid to do, plan your daughter's training.  
 Good luck.  Oh, yeah. If you haven't already, you (and/or your wife) might
consider becoming a USS swimming official.  It gives you something to do
during the meets and you can bet that your help will be appreciated.

 jt

-- 
|                     |   
|      Jim Tolar      |   ...!uunet!dover!tolar
|                     |   tolar@ssdt-tempe.sps.mot.com
|      Go Cubs!       |
|                     |   You occupy a much needed space.
Newsgroups: rec.sport.swimming
From: nagordon@amherst.edu
Subject: Re: Olympic Questions
Organization: Amherst College, Amherst Mass.
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1992 20:55:36 GMT


	Actually, the reason that the trials were moved to an early date this
year was that American swimmers had tended to peak in the trials and then have
mediocre performances in the Olympics and World Champs. In '86, for instance,
Tom Jager in the 100 Free was the only male swimmer to get a personal best
time. In 88 only Matt Biondi and Janet Evans won individual golds, and only 2
women (Jill Sterkel, Mary Meagher) and 4 men (Jager, Chris Jacobs, Dave
Berkoff, Dave Wharton) won indiviual medals, but the Trials times of a number
of other swimmers would have put them in medal contention (including Melvin
Stewart, Mike Barrowman, Rick Schroeder, Beth Barr, Jay Mortenson, Dara Torres,
Leigh Ann Fetter). Americans have had a history of mediocre performanceces in 
the Olympic Games, at least when compared to their trials. The Americans have
finished first or second in the medal count at Olympics/Worlds consistenly, but
if all the swimmers achieved their trial times the number of medals would have
been far higher. Despite their disappointments, the US showing in Barcelona was
their best in years, in terms of keeping consistent with Trials performances.
A number of the swimmers who had to put in personal bests to even make the team
had mediocre olympic results, but among the top swimmers the only ones who had
really disappointing meets were Jenny Thompson, Dan Jorgensen, Royce sharp,
Janie Wagstaff, and Erika Hansen. Consider the suprsising gold by Nelson
Diebel and Pablo Morales, both considered long-shots for gold. Also swimmers
such as Greg Burgess and Lea Loveless getting medals they were not among the
favorites for, both in personal best times. The US women crushed both relay
world records, the US men tied the medley world record, and narrowly missed
thwe world mark in the 4x100 Free. American records by Summer Sanders (200-400
IM), Lea Loveless (100 Back), Anita Nall (100 Breast), Nicole Haislett (200
Free). World records by Jeff Rouse (100 Back) and Mike Barrowman (200 Breast).
In 88, by comparison, the US men set world records in all 3 relays, but the
only other world marks came from Biondi (50 Free) and Evans (400 Free), and
only 2 other us records (Evans-400 IM, Matt Cetlinksi-400 Free). Overall, the
US performance has to be considered their best performance in relation to the
Trials since the 84 games.
nate
From: y2t@ecl.psu.edu
Newsgroups: rec.sport.swimming
Subject: Re: Body position
Date: 31 Aug 92 14:54:47 EDT
Organization: Engineering Computer Lab, Pennsylvania State University


Hi swimmers,

    This is a followup to my previous post entitled "Body position."

As there are many people interested in this problem, and all the
responses I have received so far are talking about crawstroke only. 
Therefore, I would like to restate the question as follows, and hope
that people can give suggestions on any of the four styles.

   "How to maintain the body streamlined in crawstroke, backstroke, 
butterfly, and breaststroke style?"

    I'll summerize if there is enough information. Thank you.

-Tang

Newsgroups: rec.sport.swimming,rec.sport.misc
From: redmondd@unix1.tcd.ie (Judge Raz)
Subject: US Nationals
Organization: Trinity College, Dublin
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 17:25:22 GMT

Hi,
Does anyone have results of the US National Swimming Champs that they'd
mail me? I caught 1 or 2 results in the papers here but missed most.

Thanks in advance,

Judge Raz
From: alan@techlaw.ogi.edu
Newsgroups: rec.sport.swimming
Subject: Re: Shoulder Pain
Date: 27 Aug 92 01:22:13 GMT
Organization: MARGER JOHNSON McCOLLOM & STOLOWITZ Inc, Portland OR


In Swimming Faster by Ernest W. Maglischo, p. 43, the author says there are  
fewer shoulder problems among swimmers who use "lift-dominated" vs.  
"drag-dominated" strokes.  Lift-dominated stroking is defined as movement of  
the hand downward and outward during the first part of the stroke and inward  
and upward during the second part.  A drag-dominated stroke is one in which the  
water is pushed directly backward throughout the stroke.

He goes into detail concerning the structure of the shoulder joint and how the  
drag stroke, especially when the elbow is dropped, can cause pain due to the  
head of the humerus rubbing certain tendons and ligaments.  

I have experienced some shoulder pain, although nothing as extreme as some  
posting, when using more of a drag stroke.  I now stroke more outward-downward  
and upward-inward and have not experience shoulder problems when swimming about  
2,000 meters per day.

Alan McCollom
---
Marger Johnson McCollom & Stolowitz Inc.	
	Patent Attorneys & Technology Lawyers	
Portland, Oregon 
alan@techlaw.com
Newsgroups: rec.sport.swimming
From: paque@pangea.Stanford.EDU (Julie Paque)
Subject: Re: Open water swimming - strategy
Organization: Stanford Univ. Earth Sciences
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 14:50:44 GMT

In article <1992Sep2.224602.18845@leland.Stanford.EDU> tomas@leland.Stanford.EDU (Thomas J. Monica) writes:
>In article <183emlINNac3@agate.berkeley.edu> jwd@redwood.ced.berkeley.edu (John Wilbrand Dahlgren) writes:
>>Jpeters@convex.COM (James Peters) writes:
>>        "real men don't wear rubber nor draft"
>>
>>I don't mean to start a flame war, but..
>>drafting has been part of competitive swimming probably since

...lots of stuff concerning drafting deleted..
>
>Hey Julie, what's your opinion (being the rules maven that you are)?
>
>Tom
>

As a rule, I certainly wouldn't want to be the one charged with 
enforcing it, it would be a nightmare.  In addition to the problem 
of safety that would be introduced if you had observers out on the
course to try to catch or discourage drafting.

And, can you imagine the number of protests we'd have to deal with???
"He was drafting off me the whole race, I want to protest", etc...

We've got enough problems of that sort to deal with already, we 
don't need to make it more complicated.  

Julie
From: chrisp@regenmeister.Sun.COM (Chris Prael)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.swimming
Subject: Re: How to avoid cramps?
Date: 26 Aug 92 17:02:26 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems Inc., Mountain View, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: regenmeister

From article <1992Aug25.231319.4768@cc.gatech.edu>, by jasjit@cc.gatech.edu (Jasjit Singh):
> While swimming, I occasionally get cramps in my feet, causing me to quit
> for the day. They are nothing serious, and go away in a matter of minutes.
> Could someone tell me what causes cramps, and how can one prevent them?
> Thanks a lot,
> -Jasjit
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> Jasjit Singh              jasjit@cc.gatech.edu

I used to have the same problem, sometimes.  The basic problem is
dehydration.  One sweats in the water, even though one is not aware of
it.  So, drink some (more) water before you swim and/or while you swim.

If that proves insufficient, you may also need to increase your potasium
intake a bit.  Be careful of this, as it is easy to overdo it.

Chris Prael
From: timc@sunpool.EBay.Sun.COM (Tim Cespedes)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.swimming
Subject: Re: Speedo goggles.
Date: 1 Sep 1992 16:17:39 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Distribution: world
Reply-To: timc@sunpool.EBay.Sun.COM
NNTP-Posting-Host: sunpool.ebay.sun.com


Roy,

Just got the latest (93) Speedo catalog.  The only addresses in it
are for the US and Canada (I guess there's a different version for
the UK).  They are:

	Speedo Canada
	1330 Trans Canada Highway
	Dorval Quebec  H9P 1H7
	voice west:	800-465-7443
	voice east:	800-465-2408
	fax:		514-421-3697

	Speedo America
	7911 Haskell Ave.
	Van Nuys, CA  91409
	voice:	800-547-8770
	fax:	818-373-4433


Good luck,
Tim
From: lkc@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Lee Casuto)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.swimming
Subject: Re: STRETCHES
Date: 24 Aug 92 19:53:31 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Fort Collins, CO, USA

There's a book by Bill Pearl that describes weights and stretching
for swimming (and other sports) available at B. Dalton's.  ~$10.00.

l\
From: myrnat@skibound.Corp.Sun.COM (Myrna Taga)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.swimming
Subject: Re: Contacts?
Date: 28 Aug 1992 02:57:52 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Palo Alto, CA
Distribution: (null)
Reply-To: myrnat@skibound.Corp.Sun.COM (Myrna Taga, WWFO HQ HR)
NNTP-Posting-Host: skibound.corp.sun.com


I have a few friends who were their contacts while swimming and
all use goggles.  Clorine does great things for your eyes, so just
imagine what it can do to your contacts?

Barracuda (SP?) makes perscrition goggles.  They are kind of on
the expensive side, but I hear they are worth it if you don't
want to deal with contacts.

Bottom line is if you're going to wear your contact and want to
use goggles, you can get tons of recommendations on the make and
model, but  you need to get the style that fits your face shape 
and gives you a complete seal.  If you take the goggles and press
the eye pieces (without the strap on), you'll know that you get
a prefect seal if you feel suction and they sick to your face for
a few seconds.  If you try them on with the strap on, every one
you try on will feel like they seal perfectly.

Hope this helps!
matty
Newsgroups: rec.sport.swimming
From: sandilands@hg.uleth.ca
Subject: Re: Stroke Instruction
Reply-To: sandilands@hg.uleth.ca
Organization: University of Lethbridge
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 22:03:40 GMT

In article <Bto0sq.6Cn@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu>, hamilton@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (hamilton russell j) writes:
>  I have a question for any competitive swimmers or coaches (or any former
>  competitive swimmers).  I have a 12 year old who has been swimming
>  competitively for about 5 years.  The swim club that she trains with 
>  has a number of very talented kids (they won state Junior Olympics last
>  summer and have been one of the top 3 teams in Illinois over the past
>  few years).  Some of the fastest swimmers on the team receive stroke
>  instruction from a private coach (who is not associated with the team)
>  in addition to the regular (daily) workouts.  

    stuff deleted

>  Recently my daughter has approached me and asked
>  if I'd be willing to pay for her to receive stroke instruction from 
>  a private coach (the same one her friends go to).
>  The lessons are not too expensive, so that is not a concern of mine.
>
>  My question:  Will taking stroke instruction improve her times?

Maybe, maybe not.  Sounds like a 12-year old girls' one-up-one-ship stuff to
me.  "Everybody else is, Dad; why can't I?" If your daughter's team is as good
as you say, there must be some good coaching going on.  Why not talk to one of
them?  As a former coach, I would like to know about what my swimmers are doing
sports-wise away from my training sessions.  If there is a need for stroke
instruction the coach should know about it and would be better placed to
recommend for or against.  On the other hand, if a number of swimmers are going
elsewhere for stroke instruction, maybe the club executive ought to know about
it. 

> Isn't there more than one way to perform a stroke, so that 
>                the optimum motion is different for each person? 

 Yes.  Did you ever watch Janet Evans swim?  Enough said.

> >                Would stretching, lifting weights, running, or riding 
>                a bicycle be a better use of her time? 

Again, maybe yes, maybe no.  At 12 she is just at about the age where weight
training is recommended for most, although some research suggests it's even
helpful for much younger swimmers.  Stretching should definitely be a part of
the club's workouts.  
_______________                                              _
Mark Sandilands                                      --\____/ \  ___
Dept of Psychology                                  /         |  |  |
University of Lethbridge                           / __       [_>   -
Lethbridge, Alberta---------------\                    \           <|
Canada, T1K 3M4                    ---------------->    \  *        /
e-mail: Sandilands@hg.uleth.ca                           |          |
Voice: 403-329-2404                                      \_       _\\
Newsgroups: rec.sport.swimming,rec.sport.triathlon
From: brand@rtsg.mot.com (Robert W. Brand)
Subject: Re: Open water swimming - strategy
Organization: Motorola Inc., Cellular Infrastructure Group
Distribution: na
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 15:14:08 GMT

In article <95117@bu.edu>, kuchar@buast7.bu.edu (Tom Kuchar) writes:

[some open water racing questions]

In article <1992Sep2.181219.23462@inel.gov> dpe@inel.gov (Don Palmrose) writes:

[lots of good advice on open water swimming]

>My biggest problem has been other swimmers who will not yield or move around
>you as they pass you.  I have actually had to crawl over some guy's back
>because he kept drifting to the right and was about to dunk me due to his 
>actions.  For the first time, I stayed to the outside to minimize my contact
>with other swimmers.  This lenghtened my distance but I survived without 
>loosing my goggles or from being hit by faster swimmers.

I agree that this is the biggest thing to be concerned about, especially near
the first part of the swim in tris that start people in bigger waves, maybe 
~100+ people.  Expecting to swim over or get swam over and possibly taking 
measures like Don suggests to avoid it can help someone who's trying to gain 
confidence in an open water race.  Soon you can be plowing through flailing 
arms and legs working towards an open piece of water and latching on to the
aqua-slipstream of some guy named Gunther, to be towed through the course in
record time.

Best of luck in the tri, Tom.

                                  Bob 

-- 
Bob Brand
From: y2t@ecl.psu.edu
Newsgroups: rec.sport.swimming
Subject: Body position
Date: 29 Aug 92 22:02:05 EDT
Organization: Engineering Computer Lab, Pennsylvania State University

Hi netters,

    As a beginner of swimming, I have a problem in making my body 
streamlined enough -- my feet always sink too much. The best angle 
that I can make is about 30 degrees under water. This, of course, 
greatly reduces the speed. Basically, I learned swimming from reading 
books and my friends were not able to suggest good ways to correct my
body position in the water. Any ideas of how I can lift my feet a little
bit? Thanks in advance.

-Tang
 
Newsgroups: rec.sport.swimming
From: tomas@leland.Stanford.EDU (Thomas J. Monica)
Subject: Re: Open water swimming - strategy
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Distribution: na
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 92 21:55:36 GMT

In article <1839c9INNfs2@hpscdf.scd.hp.com> schmitz@scd.hp.com (John Schmitz) writes:
>peters@convex.COM (James Peters) writes:
>> i consider outlawing masters open water
>> drafting a minor crusade of mine.
>
>Why?  Like drafting in cycling, it just makes everything a bit more
>complicated.  But as long as everybody plays by the same rules, why
>not?  I also doubt that the results would change significantly in
>most races if drafting were abolished.


Besides, REAL MEN go too fast to be able to draft! :-)


-- 
Porpise: run, bike, swim, make cookies


"long distance runner, what you holding out for?"
Newsgroups: rec.sport.swimming
From: tomas@leland.Stanford.EDU (Thomas J. Monica)
Subject: Re: Open water swimming - strategy
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Distribution: na
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 92 19:13:52 GMT

In article <lafa3dINNde4@pollux.usc.edu> bucur@pollux.usc.edu (alexander bucur) writes:
>In article <1992Sep4.160841.2286@news.cs.brandeis.edu> andyh@chaos.cs.brandeis.edu (Andrew J. Huang) writes:
>
>>So, how big is the usable wake of a swimmer?  In this case the wake
>>crossed lane markers enough to give somebody an advantage.  How far
>>behind does it go?
>
>I found out that the amount of drafting is direct related the body size
>and shoulder size of the person you're drafting off.  The larger the
>person, the better effect is observed.
>
>Also, I think that there is a strong psychological effect that drafting
>does to one.  Many times in workouts I feel without any energy, so I draft
>after a faster swimmer for a while to get my self into it.  If you are 
>chasing a world swimmer for the last few meters, I am sure that some
>untapped energy storage could be found.
>
>Sasha Bucur

In the Stanford Masters program we specificly run drafting drills to get people
used to using someones wake. (A typical set will be 600 to 1000 where one personin the lane leads for 100, and then pulls over and gets on the end of the group
after the 100). I've found that I get a lot of rest riding in anyones wake, just like in cycling.

In long open water swims long trains will develop where up to 15 swimmers are
drafting in a line (and usually some poor soul in the front. It's been me). The
race where I've seen the most structured use of drafting is the Donner Lake 2.7
mile swim. This is probalby due to the fact that there is a mass start (no waves), ~400 people, and a straight swim (no turns, no bouys) down the lake.

I always thought that if I could get a partner about my speed we could take turns drafting (run a paceline) and kick some ***. But then, we'd both want to spriunt the finish.

Tom

-- 
Porpise: run, bike, swim, make cookies


"long distance runner, what you holding out for?"
From: baker@acs.ucalgary.ca (John A. Baker)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.swimming
Subject: Re: STRETCHES
Date: 26 Aug 92 15:32:45 GMT
Organization: The University of Calgary, Alberta

In article <136820013@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM> lkc@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Lee Casuto) writes:
>There's a book by Bill Pearl that describes weights and stretching
>for swimming (and other sports) available at B. Dalton's.  ~$10.00.
>
But, according to my physiotherapist (who explains my knee
problems by my previously inadequate stretching), the best book
is STRETCHING, by Bob Anderson. It is published by Shelter
Publications, Bolinas, USA, many printings.  This includes both
sections on stretching and also sections devoted to specific
activities, including swimming. I have found it invaluable. Its
illustrations and instructions are easy to follow.

John Baker