HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: schrod@iti.informatik.th-darmstadt.de (Joachim Schrod)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: Analphabenquote und Vergleiche von Schulsystemen (was: Re: Ein deutscher Carusso????)
Date: 26 Aug 92 16:06:48 GMT
Organization: TU Darmstadt

In article <1992Aug24.204515.26404@sco.com>, jimmo@sco.COM (James Mohr) writes:
> 
> In article <SW95ZHQ@mailgzrz.tu-berlin.de> paul@cs.tu-berlin.de writes:
> >Allerdings sollten viele US-Amerikaner eher mal Schreiben und Lesen
> >lernen. Liegt die Analphabetenquote in den USA nicht schon bei ueber 30%? 
> >
> >P Boehm
> 
> Bloedsinn! Reine bloedsinn. Du bist fast so schlimm wie der Carusso. Es
> stimmt, dass die Analphabetequote is hoeher als in Deutschland, aber sie
> liegt bei bloss 10% (Eine Arbeitskollegin hilft ab und zu bei PLUS).
	    ^^^^^

Hmm, wir haben offensichtlich unterschiedliche Vorstellungen, was
**bloss** ist...

Aber im Ernst: Jim hat Recht, wenn er zu Vorsicht raet. Die hoeheren
Zahlen werden meistens im Zusammenhang mit Arbeitern genannt -- dort
schaetzen serioese Gruppen die Analphabetenrate auf ca 20% (z.B. die
Association for a Literate America).
    Die letzten Zahlen, die ich fuer (West-)Deutschland gehoert habe,
stammen von 1975 (hat jemand neuere?). Sie lagen bei 2% (Gesamt-
Bevoelkerung) resp. 5% (Arbeiter). Der Unterschied ist also schon
ganz ordentlich.

Nur ist es bei uns hier wohl auch viel schwieriger, einer regulaeren
Schule zu entgehen als in den USA. Bzw., man findet viele Stimmen in
der Literatur, die behaupten, dass es aufwendiger fuer den einzelnen
ist, in den USA eine adaequate Schulausbildung zu erhalten. Was
meinen die amerikanischen s.c.g-Leser dazu? (Sie sollten sich aber
bei der Abgabe von individuellen Erinnerungen (sog. `empirischen
Kommentaren') bitte daran erinnern, dass diese Aussage eine
statistische ist, die auch die Kinder der unteren Klassen mit
einschliesst.)

> Sollen wir auch dazu sagen, dass das Prozent der Bevoelkerung mit 
> Hochschulabschluss ist vier mal hoeher in Amerika als in Deutschland?

Diese Zahlen sind nicht vergleichbar -- genausowenig wie die
Studiendauer. Vergleiche mal, wieviele Prozent der Bevoelkerung einen
Master's Degree (in Amerika) bzw. ein Diplom/Magister (in
Deutschland) haben. Dann koennen wir weiterdiskutieren.

> Auch die Leute die auf eine Hochschule studiert haben ist sechs mal
> so hoch?

Das Niveau einer typischen Schule, die man vor der Hochschule
besucht, ist ja auch maximal so hoch wie das der deutschen
Mittelstufe. Und so, wie bei uns Personen auf die Oberstufe gehen,
gehen sie halt in den USA auf's College.

> Wenn wir den Carusso fuer solche Unsinn schimpfen, sollten wir auch
> wissen wovon wir reden. Oder?

Richtig. Wir sollten also auch nur vergleichbare Dinge vergleichen.
Und unter `vergleichbar' verstehe ich hier strukturelle
Vergleichbarkeit, nicht gleiche Namen. Ansonsten koennen wir gerne mal
eine deutsche Hochschule und eine amerikanische High-School
vergleichen... ;-) ;-) (Oder ein Diplom mit einem Diplom, wenn man das
Ergebnis anders'rum tricksen moechte.)

--
Joachim
Darmstadt, Germany
<schrod@iti.informatik.th-darmstadt.de>
From: alti@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Thorsten Altenkirch)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: Ein deutscher Carusso????
Date: 26 Aug 92 15:48:04 GMT
	<1992Aug24.204515.26404@sco.com>
Organization: LFCS, Edinburgh
In-reply-to: jimmo@sco.COM's message of 24 Aug 92 20:45:15 GMT

In article <1992Aug24.204515.26404@sco.com> jimmo@sco.COM (James Mohr) writes:

   Sollen wir auch dazu sagen, dass das Prozent der Bevoelkerung mit 
   Hochschulabschluss ist vier mal hoeher in Amerika als in Deutschland?

Hei\3t das, da\3 120% der Bev"olkerung eine Hochschule besuchen (statt
ca 30% des Jahrganges in Dtschld ?). Beeindruckend - tja das ist das
Land der unbegrenzten M"oglichkeiten....

Thorsten

P.S. Ich fand Paul's Artikel auch etwas daneben, aber ein deutscher
Carusso ist er deswegen noch nicht - er singt lange nicht so gut :-)

--
************************************************************
Thorsten Altenkirch		alti@dcs.ed.ac.uk
LFCS, Edinburgh
Scotland
From: ian@sinix.UUCP (Ian Malone)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: Munich Found
Date: 2 Sep 92 16:11:14 GMT
Organization: SNI AG Muenchen, STO XS

In article <1992Aug24.193159.20556@leland.Stanford.EDU> bergmann@leland.Stanford.EDU (Annette Bergmann) writes:
>Since there seem to be quite a number of s.c.g. people
>who are planning to move to Munich (or have just moved there), 
>I thought I'd mention an English-language magazine I have
>just discovered: "Munich Found" is available at the
>"Internationale Presse" bookstore at Munich Hauptbahnhof
>(which has become my favorite bookstore here because it is
>open when I need it).  We  had heard about MF from somebody
>(also an ex-Californian) who told us that a Mexican restaurant
>advertises in there, and, salsa-starved as we are, we had to
>buy it.  ("La Tortilla," Achentalstr. 10).  But it seems to be a 
>pretty good resource in general, too. Now  all I need are 
>some hints on how to get decent USENET access...

If you are plannning on living there, another much needed book will
be "Munich in Your Pocket, How to become a Munchner"  It's probably
available at the same place.  It will make your life infinately easier.

Ian.

>
>Saying hi from Neuhausen,
>Annette
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german
From: thomke@mtl.mit.edu (Stefan Thomke)
Subject: Re: Ein deutscher Carusso????
Organization: MIT Microsystems Technology Laboratories
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 02:28:39 GMT

In article <1992Aug26.145109.11908@nestroy.wu-wien.ac.at> kstokker@risc.uni-linz.ac.at (Karel Stokkermans) writes:
>In article <1992Aug24.204515.26404@sco.com> jimmo@sco.COM (James Mohr) writes:
>>
>>In article <SW95ZHQ@mailgzrz.tu-berlin.de> paul@cs.tu-berlin.de writes:
>>>Allerdings sollten viele US-Amerikaner eher mal Schreiben und Lesen
>>>lernen. Liegt die Analphabetenquote in den USA nicht schon bei ueber 30%? 
>>>
>>>P Boehm
>>
>>Bloedsinn! Reine bloedsinn. Du bist fast so schlimm wie der Carusso. Es
>>stimmt, dass die Analphabetequote is hoeher als in Deutschland, aber sie
>>liegt bei bloss 10% (Eine Arbeitskollegin hilft ab und zu bei PLUS).
>
>*bloss* ??
>
>>Dazu wird auch die funktionelle Analphabeten gezaehlt. 
>>Sollen wir auch dazu sagen, dass das Prozent der Bevoelkerung mit 
>>Hochschulabschluss ist vier mal hoeher in Amerika als in Deutschland?
>>Auch die Leute die auf eine Hochschule studiert haben ist sechs mal
>>so hoch?
>>Wenn wir den Carusso fuer solche Unsinn schimpfen, sollten wir auch
>>wissen wovon wir reden. Oder?
>>
>
>Zum Beispiel der Unterscheid zwischen Hochschulabschluesse in Amerika bzw.
>Deutschland?

oder Oesterreich ?

>
>-- 
>-- Karel Stokkermans, RISC-Linz, Schloss Hagenberg, Austria, Europa
> -- email: kstokker@risc.uni-linz.ac.at (or k314070@edvz.uni-linz.ac.at)
>"O hoe vergeefs / des doelmans hand / zich strekte naar de bal    [  21-6-88,  ]
> die 'een minuut / voor tijd de Duitse / doellijn kruiste..."     [ J. Deelder ]

Stefan
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german
From: dsmith@aa.cad.slb.com (J. Daniel Smith)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: shopping hours
Date: 27 Aug 92 01:55:05 GMT
Organization: Schlumberger CAD/CAM; Ann Arbor, MI (USA)

In <oli.714385854@ernie> oli@math.rwth-aachen.de (Oliver Bonten) writes:
>tim@sinix.UUCP (Tim Bissell) writes:
>>b) a law that allows competitive shops (i.e. shops selling the same
>>   stuff as you) to *sue* you if you open outside normal trading hours.
>Certainly. There is a law prohibiting "unfair competition" (unlauterer Wett-
>bewerb). It is certainly unfair competition if you gain an advantage over
>your law-abiding competitor by ignoring valid regulations. If it weren't
To me, it seems like a bit of overkill to have laws and regulations
about this type of thing.  If a shop-owner wants to keep the store
open later, what does the government care?  If longer hours turn out
to be profitable, other stores will follow; if not, this shop-owner
will be the only one losing out.  It would seem that the market itself
would do a much better job of setting shop hours than the government.
But then the germans love their rules and regulations...

   Dan
-- 
============================================================================
J. Daniel Smith                     Internet: dsmith@aa.cad.slb.com
Schlumberger CAD/CAM                          dsmith@aaaca1.sinet.slb.com
Ann Arbor, Michigan (USA)               UUCP: uunet!sharkey!applga!dsmith
From: k206027@smog.DKRZ-Hamburg.DE (ce)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: Shopping Hours, etc.
Date: 4 Sep 92 08:29:13 GMT
Organization: Deutsches Klimarechenzentrum GmbH, Hamburg

In article <1992Sep3.154954.26187@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> pmiragli@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Pierluigi Miraglia) writes:
>In article <1992Sep2.104804.27989@news.DKRZ-Hamburg.DE> k206027@smog.DKRZ-Hambu
>rg.DE (ce) writes:
>
[...]
>I think the original poster (the one you're replying to) was making a
>slightly different point. It's true that parochialism isn't an
>exclusively American trait, but in my experience there is a considerable
>difference between its consequences in Europe and in USA. For example,
>I notice that many Italian newspapers make detailed reports on the
>campaign here: people know where Clinton stands on issue x and that
>Bush waves the flag of "family values". Do you think that many
>*educated* Americans could name at least the 3 major parties in, say,
>Germany or Italy?
>
I doubt that they could, and I take your point. However, this goes back
to my comment that international news coverage within a country tends
to reflect the news which affects that country directly. The political
actions of the US government have a disproportionate effect upon the 
rest of the world, therefore it behooves people in other countries to
be more intimately familiar with the US political process. On the other
hand a substantial number of people in the US would be able to tell you
who Erich Honnecker was while being hard-pressed to tell you the names
of the major German parties. Maybe with the US dollar taking such a big
nose-dive against the Deutschmark this situation will change :) I was
directly answering the previous poster's assertion that US news shows
have a very low international content which I don't agree with. I was not
specifically trying to answer the main thrust of his original post.

>As another instance: an American friend of mine spent several weeks in
>Europe and especially Germany a few years ago. He found out that most
>people there hated then pres. Reagan. He was not so much surprised by
>their hatred, but by how much they knew about him.
>
It would be interesting to see how people feel about Ronnie now, but 
that's a topic for a different newsgroup.

*******************************************************************************
* "I'd rather decline two drinks than decline a German adjective" - Mark Twain*
*******************************************************************************
Matt Marchese	    The opinions expressed here are not those of my employer, *
Cray Research  	    my wife, my church, or myself...But they are the opinions *
DKRZ                of Elvis as revealved to me through the medium of my pet  *
Hamburg, Germany    hamster, Lee Harvey Oswald...                             *
*******************************************************************************
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german
From: S_TITZ@iravcl.ira.uka.de (Olaf Titz)
Subject: Re: shopping hours (and bathroom differences) (and weather!)
Organization: Fachschaft Informatik, Uni Karlsruhe
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 12:02:56 GMT
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.23

In <31AUG199218505007@cs.umass.edu> atkin@cs.umass.edu writes:

>  >ALL Germans HATE our shopping hours except for two groups: trade-union
>  >leaders and retail store owners :-(
>  
>  I hope you're right - then at least there's hope :) I remember how difficult
>  it was even to get the shopping hours extended on Thursdays ("langer 
>  Donnerstag"). It took years of negotiating! And of course, the local downtown
>  supermarket ("Gottlieb" am Berliner Platz - I'm sure you know that, Olaf ;) 

I do know that one :-)

>  didn't even go along with it. <sigh>

Many small and medium-size (such as Gotttlieb) stores have either
refused the extended Thursday completely or abandoned it after a short
period of 'trying' (i.e. they didn't want it in the first place, too).
But big stores always follow it. (Think of Karstadt, for example.)
MfG,
        Olaf
-- 
Olaf Titz - comp.sc.student - Univ of Karlsruhe - s_titz@iravcl.ira.uka.de -
uknf@dkauni2.bitnet - praetorius@irc - +49-721-60439 - did i forget something?
One frequently hears horror expressed that a 2M byte machine may have 400K
 devoted to its operating system. - Fred Brooks (1975)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german
From: kyle@Csli.Stanford.EDU (Kyle Wohlmut)
Subject: Re: Bathroom standards (w
Followup-To: soc.culture.german
Summary: German bathroom question
Organization: Rocking Pig Enterprises
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1992 23:47:08 GMT

WARNING: The following post contains language and subject matter that
are extremely, albeit necessarily, vulgar, and repeated references
that are not at all nice on the subject of poo-poos.  If you are
likely to be offended by such talk, the management urges you to opt
out of this posting at your next opportunity.
And now, with that out of the way...

In article <2076.178.uupcb@wugate.wustl.edu>
carl.camurca%travel@wugate.wustl.edu (Carl "Limpie" Camurca) writes:

>Wunderbar! There is the cultural difference between Americans and
>Germans/Austrians/Swiss. Yes, "What more could you ask for?".
>That's true, if you take a rational look at the whole subject. But,
>G/A/S *do* need to have it as clean and neat as possible. So, they put
>more stress on the bathrooms. And BTW, also the washing machines have a
[stuff excorcised]

Granted, but as long as we're on the subject, I have a question that's
been bugging me for years: What the hell is with those German toilets?
Neat and clean and functional as they are, they're this weird shape
that has this extended flat bowl that doesn't collect any water, so
shit just piles up in this dry area, smelling incredibly vile, and
then when you turn to flush the thing crap & slime is invariably stuck
to the bowl, so you gotta clean the thing each time... virtually every
toilet I've ever used in any German-speaking country is like this, and
I'd like to know, why?  In America (and Ireland for that matter) we
have these nice deep bowls so your BM is instantly submerged, thereby
eliminating 85% of unwanted odours, and it just makes a lot more sense
to me.  But all German toilets, even ones in really nice homes, are
like that.  What the hell, am I just shitting on the things wrong?
Somebody please enlighten me!

(contrasting diagrams of American/German toilets mercifully deleted)

/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/
                       /                                              
    Kyle Wohlmut       -   The Management regrets to inform you that  
kyle@csli.stanford.edu /   due to financial constraints, the light    
    Rocking Pig        -   at the end of the tunnel will be turned    
    Enterprises        /   off until further notice.                  
                       -                                              
-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german
From: mike@mote.Berkeley.EDU (Mike Friedrich)
Subject: Re: Apple-wine
Organization: University of California at Berkeley
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 06:24:56 GMT

>NO, NO, NO! It's not "Apfelkorn" he's looking for. Just drink a bottle of eithe
>and you'll know the difference. "Apfelkorn" belongs the species of liquor that 
>known as "schnapps" in the U.S. whereas "Apfelwein" (to my knowledge) is a sort
>cider (Most) which is comparatively low in alcohol.
>I am afraid true "Aeppelwoi" will be quite difficult to get ahold of in the U.S
>never seen any in a liquor store. 
 
When visiting my cousin in Switzerland we had "Saft", a delicious,
low-alcohol cider.  Is this the same as "Aepplewoi", and if so, I, too
would like to find some here in the States?  Thanks.

Mike Friedrich
UC Berkeley Mechanical Engineering
mike@mote.berkeley.edu
Xref: sparky soc.culture.german:5976 soc.culture.polish:2117
From: michals@fuw.edu.pl (Michal Szleper)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german,soc.culture.polish
Subject: Re: common Polish-German action (was: Nazi Cam
Date: 26 Aug 92 07:20:25 GMT
Organization: Warsaw University Physics Dept.

In article <1992Aug25.234246.7745@dgbt.doc.ca> Ted Grusec writes:
>In article <1992Aug25.073527.3523@fuw.edu.pl> michals@fuw.edu.pl (Michal Szleper) writes:
>>>On the other hand, there was a considerable amount of collaboration
>>>on an individual, unorganized basis in the round-up and extermination
>>>of the Polish Jews.
>>
>>Even if it was true it still wouldn't prove any collaboration with Nazis.
>
>Prejudice against the Jews in Europe is well documented and nowhere
>was this worse than in Poland.  The nazis capitalized on the situation
>but I think responsibility for the death camps has to shared by the
>whole of Europe and especially by those areas where prejudice was most
>widespread.>

Regardless that your statement does not fit anyhow to the question
of the pretended 'Polish collaboration with nazis', it is profoundly
incorrect. The nazis did not just 'capitalize on the situation', but
CREATED A QUALITATIVELY NEW situation, for which they are exclusively
to be blamed. It is true there was some amount of antisemitism
in Poland, but it's a definite lie trying to compare this to nazi
crimes against humanity.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
My opinions are my opinions. Quite predictable.
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Michal~ Szleper                          "All you need is love, love,
(michals@fuw.edu.pl)                      Love is all you need..."
From: wunner@nova.tat.physik.uni-tuebingen.de (Guenter Wunner)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: Castle Wolfenstein, Cool dude.
Date: 4 Sep 92 18:40:49 GMT
Organization: TAT (Theoretical Astrophysics Tuebingen), U. of Tuebingen, FRG

lkv@mania.hotb.sub.org (Lutz Vieweg) writes:

>Ich finde Castle Wolfenstein ebenso wie "Hogan's Heroes" (unter dem
>Titel "Stacheldraht und Fersengeld" in RTL zu sehen) aeusserst
>amuesant - tragisch finde ich nur, wenn Leuten, die nicht die
>Faehigkeit zur Trennung von Filmwirklichkeit und Realitaet besitzen,
>solche Werke als Grundlage ihres Deutschland-Bildes dienen.

>cu, Lutz Vieweg

Toll formuliert, Herr Vieweg!
Ich bin auch der Meinung, dass man sich nicht so ueber kriegerische
Szenarien aufregen sollte, also auch nicht ueber Wolfenstein 3D.
Tatsaechlich scheinen aber viele Amerikaner/Englaender/Franzosen, etc.
zu denken, dass alle Deutschen Neo-Nazis sind, so wie in Rostock. In
Wirklichkeit ist naemlich der Hurra-Patriotismus in anderen Laendern
wie Amerika (schon mal einen Microprose Flugsimulator gespielt?) oder
Frankreich (war da vor nem Jahr - Oh Gott, sind die weit hinterher!)
viel mehr vorhanden. Ich persoenlich bin der Meinung, dass Deutschland
"dank" des 2. Weltkrieges eines der wenigen Laender ist, die nicht so
auf Krieg erpicht sind und sozusagen etwas "vernuenftiger". Was meinen
die anderen Deutschen und die Amerikaner etc. zu meiner Meinung?
Tschuess,
	Lukas.

(lukas@trillian.tp1.ruhr-uni-bochum.de or lukas@134.147.160.21)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german
From: 10642617@eng2.eng.monash.edu.au (DAVID HOLECEK)
Subject: Work Experience - Civil Engineering
Organization: Faculty of Engineering, Monash University 
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 01:30:29 GMT

Could anyone supply me with addresses of German companies or institutions 
involved in Civil Engineering work, where I could get some work. Here in 
Australia it is currently very hard to get 12 weeks work experience needed 
to complete an Engineering Degree.

Many Thanks

David Holecek
Monash University
Melbourne
Australia
From: rys@apelc8.inf.ethz.ch (Michael Rys)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: Dual Citizenship
Date: 27 Aug 92 10:49:24 GMT
Organization: Dept. Informatik, Swiss Federal Institute of Technology (ETH), Zurich, CH

In article <ADNAN.92Aug26123317@redstart.icd.ab.com>, adnan@redstart.icd.ab.com (Adnan C. Yaqub) writes:

|> The Swiss *automatically* give citizenship to spouses of Swiss citizens.)  

Since 1992-01-01 not true anymore. Until 1991-12-31 if a woman married a 
Swiss man she automatically got Swiss citizenship (but not if a man married
a Swiss woman). In order to get same rights for men and women, they changed
the law, so that it is easier and cheaper to apply for citizenship, but it
will not be granted automatically anymore (equal oppurtunity comes faster
where men profit...).

Why do I know? I am Swiss and married my German wife on the 6th of Dec
1991.

Cheers
Michael
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german,soc.culture.polish
From: dobo@cs.UAlberta.CA (W. Dobosiewicz)
Subject: Re: common Polish-German action (was: Nazi Cam
Organization: University of Alberta, Edmonton, Canada
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 16:45:51 GMT

roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig) writes:

>In article <BtKKrL.CIM@sun3.vlsi.uwaterloo.ca> rjromanc@sun1.vlsi.uwaterloo.ca (Richard Romanczyk) writes:
[...]

>c) Most of the Jews in what was Poland in 1939 were there because of
>the old Russian policy of the Pale of Settlement.  The Poles had little
>to say about this.

You may wish to learn this: in 1764, there were about 750,000 Jews in
Poland (about 6%) of the population, living mainly in the Ukraine (44%)
and Lithuania+Bielorussia) (27%). The proportion was not much different
than in 1931, with one exception: immigration from Germany (I do not know
why, but as soon as Prussia occupied western Poland, numerous Jews moved
East.
(source: Artur Eisenbach: Emancypacja ...)

[...]

>With the aid of a good many people from other countries.  I speak of
>guards, other local workers, and those who were in a position to speak
>up against the deportation and did not, to say nothing of the many col-  
>laborators the Germans found in countries from France and the Netherlands
>to Poland and Hungary.

I challenge you to tell us where Polish guards were used in a
concentration camp.
To add something to the discussion, let me point out
that the people who carted ghetto Jews into cars to 
Auschwitz/Treblinka/etc. were Judenpolizei - you guessed it - fellow Jews.
Not Polish police (also collaborators, but with no authority in ghettos).
Do you want details? Please read Czerniakow's diary (he was the president
of the Warsaw Judenrat until committing suicide).

>>Plans for these camps were conceived before the war even started.  There

[...]
Come on, this is hogwash. Give proof or talk about fishing, instead.

>>may have been Anti-Semetism in many parts of Europe (including Poland),
>>but hey, let's face it: no one else resorted to genocide except the German
>>Nazis.

>Nobody else waged a war in order to do it.  But nobody stood up for 
>the Jews when they were deported, in most cases; and where people *did*
>stand up, it had a palpable effect.

Let us talk France. Did it have any effect? Did they stand up?
And what exactly is "standing up" in a country run by machine gun?


W. Dobosiewicz
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german