From: mark@cs.UAlberta.CA (Mark Green)
Subject: Re: A Couple Of Thoughts About Race
Organization: University of Alberta
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 19:00:43 GMT

In article <5281@dove.nist.gov> hira@cme.nist.gov writes:
>In article <SHAW.92Aug25003633@whopper.lcs.mit.edu>,
>shaw@whopper.lcs.mit.edu (Andy Shaw) writes:
>|>From: shaw@whopper.lcs.mit.edu (Andy Shaw)
>|>In article <5079@dove.nist.gov> hira@cme.nist.gov (Ron Hira) writes:
>|>   I could go on with a number of other examples, but I'll spare you.
>The long
>|>   and short of it is that we need to inform people about race problems and 
>|>   when things make us feel uncomfortable. It is *our* responsibility
>to inform
>|>                                          
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>|>   WAs of the problems that we face and its *their* responsibility to keep an
>|>   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>|>   open mind. Much of the real racism and even the imagined racism (yes I'm 
>|>   ^^^^^^^^^
>|>   guilty of this) is due to a lack of communication. So let's be a little 
>|>   more understanding and willing to expand our horizons without resorting to
>|>   shouting matches. 
>|>
>|>For the most part, I agree with what you've written, but I disagree with
>|>the underlined statements.  It is ***NOT*** my responsibility to educate
>|>every ignorant white guy that comes along with a big attitude problem --
>|>when I do, it is out of the kindness of my heart or from self interest, but
>|>NOT out of a sense of duty.  One might argue that it is always in one's
>|>self interest in the long run to open the mind of one more individual, but
>|>my experience tells me that _quite_often_, it's just not worth the effort.
>
>I haven't seen any other followups to this thread, notably any white posters.
>Why this is, I don't particularly understand. 

Well, I'll take the bait and respond.

>
>|>Secondly, asking or expecting some sort of sense of responsibility from
>|>others (i.e. in keeping an open mind) is going to lead you to a lot of
>|>disappointment, Ron.  When people are responsible or keep an open mind, I
>|>am pleasantly surprised; when they don't, I am prepared.
>
>Agreed, but one must respect other people's viewpoints. The white male claims
>that he's a pariah and being discriminated against legally, and many
>white men believe this. There are some sensationalized cases of "reverse"
>discrimination, that leave many people with this perception. Of course,
>real discrimination makes this so-called "reverse" discrimination look
>pretty miniscule. The white man doesn't see this, or ignores this fact in
>many cases because of self interest.
>
>Ron
>
>|>-Andy

I really don't think its a matter of self interest in a large number of
cases.  Many white people don't think there is racism in Canada, and
I imagine the US also, for the following reasons:

1) They are not the victims, so they don't have direct first hand
   experience.

2) Most racism is quite subtle in North America.  There are laws that
   forbid blatant forms of racism.  But, that doesn't stop racism, it
   just means that the people doing it must be more clever and hide
   there actions.  You can't tell someone you're not hiring them because
   of their race, you need to come up with another excuse and essentially
   hide your tracks.  To the casual observer this isn't racism, there
   was just a better person for the job.  The general population never
   sees this form of racism and therefore assumes it doesn't exist.

3) There are laws against racism, therefore, it doesn't exist.

Ten years ago if you asked me whether there was racism in Canada, I
would have said no.  Now that I'm in a position to see these things first
hand, my answer is quite different, racism exists, its just very hard
for white males to detect.

The real problem is you can't create laws against racism.  The only
way to solve the problem is to convice racist people, of all races,
that this is a serious problem that must be solved.  If someone is going
to be racist a law won't stop them, it only forces them to hide their
activities.  In my opinion this makes the problem worse, since the general
population (ie. the majority of people) think the problem of racism has
been solved, but the victims are still complaining.  This leads to the
attitude of "What the hell do these guys want now.  We made racism
illegal and they're still complaining.  What a bunch of whiners".
Then the general population thinks that they are being attacked, because
after all we have solved the problem.  Then the hard feelings start, claims
of reverse racism, etc.