From: ata@hfsi.uucp (John Ata - FSO)
Subject: Re: Will the -REAL- Christians please stand up? Was: What did Judas betray?
Reply-To: ata@hfsi.UUCP (John Ata - FSO)
Organization: HFSI, McLean VA.
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 06:59:09 GMT

In article <1icv2dINNnga@fido.asd.sgi.com> livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:
>In article <1993Jan5.131558.26580@hfsi.uucp>, ata@hfsi.uucp (John Ata - FSO) writes:
>|> In article <1i2tnfINN8rh@fido.asd.sgi.com> livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:
>|> >In article <1993Jan1.191432.13862@hfsi.uucp>, ata@hfsi.uucp (John Ata - FSO) writes:
>|> >|> In article <1humf2INNniq@iraul1.ira.uka.de> stoesser@i31s17.ira.uka.de (Achim Stoesser) writes:
>|> >|> >
>|> >|> >- Hitler was Roman Catholic.
>|> >|> 
>|> >|> His regime and his government, however, were not founded on
>|> >|> Christian values.  That is the point that was being made (although
>|> >|> I agree that Hitler's "religion" can cloud the issue).  I don't
>|> >|> know of any Christian denomination at the time of Hitler that
>|> >|> espoused the killing of non-Christians as even remotely following
>|> >|> Christ.  I won't even mention the superiority of one race over
>|> >|> another, etc. 
>|> >
>|> >This is highly misleading.   In reality, most of the mainstream 
>|> >denominations in Germany expressed support for Hitler and for his 
>|> >regime at some time or other.
>|> 
>|> I disagree.  The point I was making is that Hitler and his regime did
>|> not use Christian or Christ-like values when they devised their Nazi
>|> state.  Nothing you have said has changed this.
>
>Well, that takes us back to the original question.   If it's so 
>obvious that Hitler didn't use christian values, why did the Churches
>support him?

I fail to see how the Churches support or lack of support have
anything to do with Hitler's values.  Sorry.

>
>Hitler said on many occasions that he believed he was carrying out 
>"The Lord's work" in his program.   The church was in a position to 
>contradict him when he said that, but what did they do instead?    
>Well, the catholic Youth Organization proclaimed Naziism as a great 
>spiritual breakthorugh, and other Catholic and Protestant Bishops 
>expressed their support for the Nazis, so what was an ordinary 
>Christian to conclude?    

You know, you've made that statement before, but the CYO is really
not the Church.  It's funny, though, I've never heard a German
claim that the reason why he killed Jews was because the Catholic
Church supported him and told him it was right, have you?

>
>|> Your quoting single line statements from documents, is IMHO
>|> potentially very misleading.
>
>There are *dozens* of quotations from Church leaders expressing
>support of the Nazis and of Hitler in particular.   No-one has to
>depend on selective quotation.

My point is that all your quotes (even if there are 100 of them)
are one line quotes.  You can't tell from one line the intent of
the whole speech.

>|> 
>|> Churches, by their nature tend to be nationalistic and supportive
>|> of their governemnt.  This is human nature.  
>
>This rationalization comes up over and over: "The Churches were only
>human".
>
>But that's what we are saying.   The Churches behaved like ordinary
>human institutions, just as they have for the last two thousand
>years.   Ordinary, greedy, exploitative, opportunist humans.   As
>long as Hitler looked like winning, they were all for him, and if that
>meant the death of few Jews, so what.    Once he looked like a loser,
>they discovered that he had been a monster all along.

That's *your* interpretation of the events.  In addition, you
charge that Pope Pius XII had no regard for Jews.  Beside your
feeling that he didn't actively oppose the Nazi's, what evidence
do you have that this is so? 

>
>Now is that what we want from Churches?   Is this where we are
>supposed to get moral guidance?

Indeed.

>
>jon.


-- 
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