From: garyg@netcom.com (Gary Greene)
Subject: Re: Swedes turned into Moslems
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1992 11:20:55 GMT

fischer@iesd.auc.dk (Lars Peter Fischer) writes:

>>>>>> "Helge" == Helge Hafting (hafting@Lise.Unit.NO)

>Helge> I find it strange that anyone converts into another religion at
>Helge> all.  After all, if one is serios about religion, religion is
>Helge> something one really believes in, it is not a matter of
>Helge> "choosing".  Perhaps people that convert arent really serious
>Helge> about religion, they just convert because it is convenient?

As a side comment to Helge's question of "seriousness,"  many people
are only socially religious, i.e., they were raised as Catholics, or
Lutherans, or whatever, and lived those norms uncritically.  Should 
they then at a later point make a deep psychological connection between
something they feel deeply and strongly, a conversion experience is 
likely to result.  Now, if there is some disonance between the faith
they were brought up in, or if that faith was never really satisfying 
to them, then they are likely to search outside the religious group 
they were born into.  I recommend a rather old book on the psychology
of religion by the American psychologist William James, if you want to
look at this closer: "The Varieties of Religious Experience."  Dr. James
originally presented the material in his Gifford Lectures on Natural
Religion, given at Edinburgh in 1901-1902.  The book became a classic
and is still in print.  Dr. James was not a religious man himself.

>Well, there are all these stories of God (or whatever) suddenly
>appearing before people and talking to them and so on.

>True, a conversion is a very important move and not something people
>do easily. To me it is a complete mystery what goes on in the mind of
>a religious person, but I can understand that one might in fact come
>to believe in some religion. One could argue, I guess, that it is in
>general a weak believer in religion A that converts to religion B.

Here I want to respond from personal experience.  I was raised as a
Roman Catholic, but am now a Quaker (more formally a member of the
Religious Society of Friends).  I think that the problem Lars has with
understanding what goes on in the mind of a religious person lies in
his identification of religion with a system of beliefs and a social
organization rather than an experience of life.  There is really very 
little different between us on some levels.  All three of us, Lars,
Helge, and myself have a sense of right and wrong and some commitment
to basic decencies.  I suspect all three of us are outraged by some of
the stories coming out of Bosnia right now for instance.  

I was not a weak Catholic, nor is it uncommon for a strong believer to
convert.  Rather, it is the strength of that belief, the value of their
commitment to some higher justice or communion which practically forces 
the conversion.  Sometimes the conversion is merely a case of a fanatic 
changing his social addiction for another, more satisfying flavor.  
Which I might be is better left for others to decide.  But the central
point is that belief is internally driven, not externally driven.
All three of us are driven by our internal beliefs which manifest them-
selves in the organizations we join, or the work we commit our lives to.
The externals are just tools for our internal commitments.  So I think
it is clear you phrased it backwards when you said that someone might
come to believe in some religion.  Generally, a person who converts is
someone who has been seeking to satisfy an internal need, not someone
who has come to accept one set of formal beliefs over another.

I'll cover my personal conversion in my response to the next paragraph.

>As has been pointed out before, these people that become Moslems might
>not have been religious to begin with. I know a few people that has
>become *very* christian all of a sudden -- they where not religious at
>all before their sudden "conversion".

What you describe above is a common denominator in both sorts of conversion.
The unreligious Christians who suddenly become very Christian and the deeply
committed Christian who changes their church (or becomes non-Christian) are
driven by an internal need they might not talk about, even with their close
friends.  They are unsettled and troubled on some level.  This generally
leads to deep introspection, a state not unlike formal meditation; at least 
it did in my case.  Deep meditation has an effect on brain function, well 
studied in recent years by physiologists, leading to peaceful "alpha" state 
if done properly.  A troubled person entering this state can also experience 
a sudden transition, an "Aha!!" sort of thing when internal barriors break-
down and answers come clearly.  Most of us have experienced light cases of
this sort of sense of discovery, but if it occurs during a deeply meditative
state it can have transcendent, indescribable effects.  The sense of being
connected is powerful and transforming.  Some people have described it as
like being a circuit designed for 110 Volts and suddenly bearing a load of
220 Volts.  The combination of the sense of connectedness, the sudden sense
of understanding, and the shear power which flows through in a major break-
through can genuinely remake a person for some time.  If they continue along
that path, their lives are remade.  A religious person may experience that
sense of connection and power as a direct communion with God.

In my own case, I was an American serving in our Air Force during the Vietnam
war.  I entered the service with strong sense of dismay and disbelief in that
war, and my experiences as a medic only strengthened those feelings.  Towards
the end of my service, the politics occuring in America pushed me to some 
limit past which I could not stand the internal conflict between my sense of
obligation to country and my disbelief in that war anymore.  I determined to
get out of the Air Force as a conscientious objector.  One of the formalities
of applying for such a discharge was that I had to file a statement of 
explanation and belief.  I wanted to write something from the heart, but found
it very difficult to explain myself, and why this was a religious belief.
I did a lot of deep thought on the issue, struggling to understand it myself.
The more I struggled with the task, the worse my internal conflict became.
Finally, while in deep sorrow and thought on the issue I had a major experience
such as I outline above.  The experience made me re-examine ALL my beliefs and
commitments and remade my life.  The Quakers are a peace church, certainly not
the only one, but once I was there I felt like I was finally home and at peace
with myself.  For me, my transendental experience was an experience of God.
For another person, I am quite aware it need not be.  But for me or that other 
person, religion is how you experience and live life.  I am quite sure that an 
atheist who has been through such an opening will know what I mean, even if 
they are still atheist.

>/Lars
>--
>Lars Fischer, fischer@iesd.auc.dk | It takes an uncommon mind to think of
>CS Dept., Aalborg Univ., DENMARK. | these things.  -- Calvin

Respects,

Gary Greene
Santa Clara, California				garyg@netcom.com  
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic