From: malloy@nprdc.navy.mil (Sean Malloy)
Subject: Re: How do axioms really work?
X-Gated-By: The Black Marble Wombat@morticia.cnns.unt.edu
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Organization: University of North Texas
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Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1992 14:31:51 GMT

> In the ongoing debate, KJ says (referring to tech 8 bows doing no more
> damage than tech 7s):
> 
> >That sounds good to me (the excess energy gets drained away by the
> Everlaws
> >perhaps).
> 
> Nope, I don't think so. There is no excess energy in the first place.
> Remember the 'excess energy' is only the hypothetical energy that *would*
> exeist if the bow were fired under tech 8+ axioms. What I am saying is that
> _physics is different under tech axiom 7_. 

Consider the implications of this statement. When I was growing up, as
part of a survival exercise I made a bow from a tree limb that was
roughly an inch and a half in diameter, using a store-bought bowstring;
it had a pull of roughly forty pounds. This is about the practical
limit for a short self bow. I got the tree limb by hanging from a
six-inch tree limb and putting my weight on the smaller limb, which
broke free of the tree.

The energy that a bow delivers is the result of the bowstave's
resistance to being bent. If, under the axioms of the Living Land, a
bowstave, regardless of its construction, will store no more energy
than a short self bow, then _any_ tree limb in the Living Land will be
unable to support the weight of a grown human, regardless of its size.
This will place a severe upper limit on the size of plants in the
Living Land, and cause the destruction of most forested areas in LL
dominant or pure zones, as the trees became unable to support their
own weight in the axiom wash -- they'd have to transform to LL flora
or they'd break and fall over.

> 
> In another post:
> 
> >Of course, that leads to the question of why you can't do the same
> >thing with all equipment (ie, if you disconnect with your 9mm pistol
> >in Orrorsh, why doesn't it still work but at an equivalent level of
> >Orrorsh Tech level guns?) so maybe that isn't such a good idea after
> >all.... 
> 
> Here's a simple (material-based) rule: If a contradiction is created by
> using some materials in a manner not allowed at the tech level, then the
> materials function at best as if they were of the lower tech level (i.e, a
> longbow in Tech 7 does shortbow damage). If the contradiction relies upon
> new parts, substances, or structures, then the device will malfunction
> (sice its essentail components are not supported). So a 9mm automatic won't
> work in Orrosh (for various reasons apparent to those with more gunsmithing
> know-how that I will be able to explain)

But is the contradiction the _idea_ or the _material_? It's physically
possible to, using Victorian-era materials and methods, build a
semi-automatic pistol. And actually, it's even easier to build a
fully-automatic blowback-operated machine pistol like the German
MP-40; it's an even more primitive method of operation than the
British Maxim gun that _is_ within the limits of the Tech axiom of
Orrorsh.

I will concede that a modern semi-automatic pistol, with modern
propellants and primers, would malfunction, a pistol to the same
design firing locally-made ammunition, with recoil springs modified
for the lower power of the cartridges, is a much more nebulous
question. Does the recoil force somehow get sucked away so it can't
operate the action? If so, how do the axioms differentiate between a
recoil-operated machine gun and a recoil-operated semiautomatic
pistol?

Consider the result of some bright boy in Orrorsh hooking up a small
steam engine to the crank of a Gatling gun -- it's a fair bit more
bulky, but there's no inherent problem in getting the same rate of
fire from it as you would from a Tech 22 minigun; it's the same
technology with a different power source. Do two pieces of equipment
that are each well within the limits of the Tech axiom of a cosm
suddenly fail if someone connects them?

-- 
random sig #45:
Sean Malloy                                  | 
Navy Personnel Research & Development Center | If God had meant Man to fly, He
San Diego, CA 92152-6800                     | would have given us tickets.
malloy@nprdc.navy.mil                        | 
Organization: Junior, Philosophy, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA