From: ratner@cs.columbia.edu (Michael Ratner)
Subject: Re: Can white men jump?
Organization: Columbia University Department of Computer Science
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 06:39:08 GMT

In article <IGOR.92Oct12231136@krishna.cs.columbia.edu> igor@cs.columbia.edu (Igor Pankevich) writes:
>In article <Bw120z.5Eu@apollo.hp.com> goykhman_a@apollo.hp.com (Alex Goykhman) writes:
>
>   In article <1992Oct12.182206.12932@lamont.ldgo.columbia.edu> sasha@ldgo.columbia.edu (Alexander Krupitsky) writes:
>   ...
>>  >If one admits that races are not equal in some respect, why accept the
>>  >idea that they are equal in everything else? Maybe whites are
>>  >genetically more capable in something else? I am not saying that one
>>  >or another race should be discriminated because it's superior or
>>  >inferior in some respect....

I don't think that blacks in general are more capable athletically
than whites.  Don't forget, you are making your argument about AMERICAN
BLACKS.  That's a different story.  American blacks are not
representative of the blacks in general, because they are a subset of
the race, and elements of that subset were not chosen at random.
Blacks were brought into the New World (Happy Columbus Day, everybody
:) as slaves, and physically weak were "not imported."  American
Blacks are, on average, much more able-bodied than members of every
other ethnic group -- precisely because their ancestors were CHOSEN
based on that criterion.

>>      Let us, for the sake of the argument, assume that Race X
>>      is genetically more capable than Race Y when it comes to 
>>      activity Z.  So what?  This kind of knowledge is absolutely
>>      useless, unless one intends to discriminate on the basis of 
>>      race and is looking for justification.
>>   one's race is irrelevant -> all races are equal
>
>What about "Race X is more capable of learning things when taught
>using the strategy K, and Race Y is more capable of learning when
>taught using the strategy L"? There was a psychology professor
>somewhewere in the US who's research choed this on blacks vs. whites,
>and he was called a racist and had to retire, or something... It is
>not a discrimination, it is an attempt to bring forward some race's
>strongest potential, and it is called a racism. How about that?

Once again, I believe that there's a certain balance of abilities in a
person -- physically strong are usually not too bright, and smartest
guys I know don't exactly look like Stallone...  I guess you get my point.

>>  ...
>>  >A little side point. Many participants of this group are Jewish (and
>>  >this paragraph is addressed to them). I'll take a risk to guess that
>>  >most of them, even though aren't religious themselves, pay due respect
>>  >to their ancestor's religion and even observe high holidays. Don't you
>>  >think that the whole concept of "chosen people" is racist?
>>      "Chosen people" is more of a religious concept than a racial/ethnic
>>      one.  Jews happen to be of all races/colours, and you could become 
>>      one (observe the Jewish holidays, even emigrate to Israel:), if you
>>      _really_ wanted to.
>
>"Chosen people" is _primarily_ an ethnic/racial issue. You are Jewish in
>teh firs place according to your birth, and only then - according to
>your beliefs. You can become Jewish being of any race, but you can't
>give up your "Jewishhood" once you are born that way. Then, again,
>read the Tora: the G-d promised Abraham to have his _decendants_
>"Chosen People", and only later He stated the formal procedure for the
>Goim to become a part of a Jewish house. That is one of the reasons

Sorry, Igor, that is not true.  First of all there are no "Goim who
become a part of a Jewish house."  A jewish soul can be born among the
non-Jews and then return to formal "Jewishness."  Yes, it is sometimes
hard to distinguish between such a Jewish soul and a non-Jew who is
for some reason attracted to Judaism.  That's why it is EXTREMELY hard
to convert according to Orthodox rules -- they are afraid to make a
truly disastrous mistake of considering a non-Jew to be a "real" Jew.
Also, a "ger" (convert) has always been considered to be included in
the covenant of Abraham. In fact, when "ger" is called to read the
weekly chapter of Torah he is called as "<someone> ben Abraham" or son
of Abraham.

>why a lot of Hasidic and Orthodox Jews look at those of non-Jewish
>origin as at people of the "vtoroy sort", even though it si also
>stated that once a Goim became a Jew, he has an equal part in Israel.

No knowledgeable Orthodox, let alone Hasidic Jew, would treat a ger as
a "second class" person.  Never.  Actually in the daily prayer there's
a special "directive" to love converts, on top of the one concerning
people of Israel in general.

As far as the concept of Jews being a "chosen people" is concerned, if
you define racism as claiming that one ethnic group is better than
another, then it has nothing to do with racism.  Jews as chosen people
are not "better" or "worse" than the others.  They just have a
different task in this world.  Try to think of this as a horizontal,
and not a vertical distinction.  Are men better than women ?

>--Igor

						-- Mike

P.S.  Slushai, Krupitsky, vot rasskazhu Lariske chto ty rasist, ona tebya   
v dom ne pustit... :-)


-- 
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			|  Michael B. Ratner  |
			|_____________________|

Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet