From: glenne@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Neuromancer )
Newsgroups: alt.society.anarchy
Subject: Re: The Anarchy Paradox
Date: 28 Sep 1992 20:22:12 GMT
Organization: Computing Services Division, University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.89.7.4

Perry Metzger           pmetzger@shearson.com writes:
>If you presume to make decisions for others since you know better than
>everyone else, you aren't an anarchist -- you are a fascist.
 
Oh, no... don't worry...  I just am trying to show you what a fool
you are...   I'm not a socialist... What you decide is completely up
to you.   Have slaves if that is what you want....
 
I wrote:
|>Legitimized use of force... legitimized yes... but never
|>legitimate...  You can legitimize violence and coercion all you
|>want... in your own mind...  to defend your riches... to protect
|>your hide...   to keep yourself comfortable...
 
>Tell it to my rifle.
 
BOOOOOHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!  OH! OH!  HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!   How easy it is to get you to pull out your guns
Arkhos!  I thought I was the fascist!  BOOOHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
I thought Micheal Ballard was the one who held the contradictory
beliefs!  Freedom looking down the barrel of your rifle...  Stop!
Please!  You're making my sides ache!   If libertarian socialist is
an oxymoron, an anarchocapitalist is just a plain moron.
 
 
>Look, you seem to have this idea that people will produce without an
>incentive. Go to the ruins of the giant tractor factories in Volgagrad
>to see what that brings.
 
You really don't have a clue, do you Arkhos...  Monetary incentives
are not the only incentives a person can have...  Compassion...
Affection...  don't these mean anything to you?
 
>The fact remains that people will only cooperate with a system that
>brings them benefits. The trick is to produce a system that brings as
>many people benefits as possible. Some people will always choose to opt
>out of the system and become thieves and rapists or what have you --
>other people who don't like what those people have done always have an
>incentive to stop them.
 
And some people will choose to opt out of the system to become Mother
Theresas....   What do we need a "system" for anyway?   I hate systems...
systems are static... dead...  Why not try freedom...  dynamic... life?
 
Benefits?  are you talking about, Almighty material wealth again?
 
 
>I will use force to protect my riches, my comfort, and my family --
>am also likely a much better shot than you.
 
What do you want, a medal?  Pffft....  How about pity?   Gads...
you sound like a two year old screaming "MINE!".  That's alright
junior...   have your toys...
 
>Now, you have two choices about how to deal with me. You can try to
>sieze all that I have, in which case you and a bunch of your friends
>will likely end up dead before one of you manages to off me,
 
You really don't even begin to understand me, do you?  There
there... it's alright... I'm not going to take anything from you...
 
>or you can choose to come to me and offer me deals based on voluntary
>exchange where I do something for you, you do something for me, and we
>are all happy.
 
As the saying goes... ignorance is bliss.
 
>People will only voluntarily exchange goods when both see an
>advantage by doing so.
 
HUH?  What alternate dimension are you from?  Not everyone is
trying to get an advantage when they give someone something...
(shakes head)
 
 
>Leaving people free to possess property and engage in free exchanges
>makes for a system that maximizes everyone's long term happiness.
 
I agree... Leaving them free to not cling to all their wealth does
the same...  The key is leaving them free...    Private property
is not going to make you happy in the long run... In the real long run
we are all gonna wind up dead.
 
 
>Using econojargon, its Pareto Optimal.
 
My what big words!   I'm impressed junior.
 
>Now, you can choose to live in a system where everyone who agrees not
>to use violence gets left to his own affairs and freely and peacefully
>trade with others, or you can live in a society where people are constantly
>trying to use force to stop each other from living lifestyles the other
>people don't like. You are free to choose violence and kill me,
>eliminating all you may gain from my productive capacities and possibly
>your own life, or to live peacefully with me. Choose.
 
Daddy ain't gonna spank you junior... no matter what a stinker
you are....    You can keep your toys.... really....
 
Me again:
|>This raises some questions...  suppose a person is relatively
|>more useful to society than most others...  does this person
|>deserve to be rewarded with great riches?  I would say no.
|>For me, the fact that the person is more useful is its own reward.
 
>Then what incentive does that person have to do anything? Why not just
>become a bum and let other people work hard? Why should I, a useful
>and productive person, want to be punished for my value by being
>forced to provide for all the rest of you who are useless? Why should
>I bother? Why shouldn't I pretend to be useless, too?
 
In your case, I think that is exactly what you would do... what a
shame... a bright guy like you...
 
Glenn                               glenne@csd4.csd.uwm.edu
Newsgroups: alt.society.anarchy