From: ejk@coral.JPL.NASA.gov (Elya Kapelyan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re:  Why I gave up on my People (was Re: Another Holocaust)
Date: 28 Jul 92 17:40:27 GMT
Article-I.D.: elroy.1992Jul28.174027.17499
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory, NASA/Caltech


	I thought about how to respond to this post for a while, so here it 
is...

In article <_-jm_ah.madhaus@netcom.com>, madhaus@netcom.com (Maddi Hausmann) writes:
|> makowsky@enuxha.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky) writes:
|> : In article <1992Jul16.225143.6540@unixland.natick.ma.us> sharon@unixland.natick.ma.us (Sharon Machlis Gartenberg) writes:
|> : 
|> : # I don't understand your assumption that any Jew who worries about people
|> : # other than Jews, somehow does not care about the Jewish people. 
|> : 
|> : 	Well if they do care, at the very least they have a strange way of
|> : showing it.  At the most, they have their priorities screwed up.  For
|> : just one example (out of many), plenty of Jews were arrested
|> : protesting policies in South Africa.  Most of these Jews did not do
|> : anything for Soviet Jews, in fact many criticized some attempts on
|> : behalf of Soviet Jews.  I really do not know why I have to remind you
|> : of this since it is well known and documented.
|> 
|> And I do not have to quote any reference since they are intuitively
|> obvious to even the most casual observer. <sarcasm> 

	Actually, it is <no sarcasm>.  If you insist on names the New Jewish
Agenda (headed by Michael Lerner(?)) quickly comes to mind.
|> : 
|> : # >	It is not a matter of caring, it is a matter of priorities.  As to
|> : # >building a better world, worry about your own home first.
|> : 
|> : # First? Or only?
|> : 
|> : 	"First".  However, there are only 24 hours in a day, so it may be a
|> : (completely legitimate) de fact "only".  I should not have to note
|> : this however.  It should be obvious.
|> 
|> You know, this is the reason I stopped going to synogogue, moved away
|> from the NY metro area, and pretty much dropped out of the Jewish
|> Community.  David, your attitudes and opinions are, in my opinion,
|> offensive.  If you have so little regard for you fellow man, then
|> at least consider that it is your selfish and provincial mindset
|> that have alienated many Jews of my generation from the community. 
|> 
|> If I am to commit the time, effort and resources it takes to join a
|> group, you can bet it will be one that is a force for good and not
|> evil.  David, I believe your attitude toward humanity is EVIL.  Your
|> responses to Sharon are disrespectful, and you are disgracing your
|> own people.  
|> 
|> I hope most of the Jews reading this group are more enlightened
|> than David, and that the "Us first, everyone else last or not at all"
|> attitude I grew up with is purged from the collective consciousness.

	The answer to this gem was posted in another context a week or two ago.
So I will repeat (I don't remember the author's name).  Some of us in this group
are either descended from Jews from Eastern Europe, or are ourselves from there
(such as myself), and we acquired our prejudices the hard way.  David's attitude
is not "EVIL", it is pragmatic.  His response to Sharon's is disrespectful only
in the sense that Sharon seems to inhabit some perfect world where anti-Semitism
is an abstract concept and everyone cares for everyone else.  David merely attempted
to inject some reality into the conversation.

	For the sake of our survival, I hope that David's attitude becomes more
prevalent, because it is at least based on reality.

 
|> : 	I hope it is not bigoted, as I am not a bigot.  However, bogoted
|> : or not, it is correct.
|> 
|> You are a bigot, David.  What you call FACT is your selective editing
|> of history.  Sure, Jews got a raw deal throughout their history.  And
|> so did other groups.  Your view on the world is bigoted because you
|> deliberately ignore any information on how any other group suffered,
|> and you also ignore FACTS about how the Jews persecuted other groups
|> when they were in power in ancient Jerusalem.  I don't blame the Jews
|> for this because it is human nature to oppress others.  Heck, look
|> at what is happening to the Palestinians now; proof that *all* of us
|> are capable of both suffering and doing great evil.

	David is not a bigot, but you are an idiot.  David is "not ignoring...other
groups have suffered", because it is irrelevant to his point.  Besides who were
these "groups" that "Jews persecuted... when they were in power in ancient 
Jerusalem"?  Are you referring to the Idumeans?  Or maybe to the Jebusites and
the Canaanites?  As for your reference to Palestinians, are you seriously comparing
their treatment to what Jews suffered over the past two millenia?  If you are, you
have nothing of value to contribute, other than to prove David's point about some
anti-Semites being able to say that some of their best friends are Jewish, and 
mean it.

|> Don't event bother replying, David; it's obvious you have no interest
|> in anything other than perpetuation your hateful attitudes. 

	And you have no interest in facing reality. 

|> ---
|> Maddi Hausmann                madhaus@netcom.com
|> Humorist, Satirist, Tech Writer.  Take your pick.
|> 
|> Centigram Communications Corp, San Jose California  408/428-3553
|> -- 
|> Maddi Hausmann                madhaus@netcom.com
|> Humorist, Satirist, Tech Writer.  Take your pick.
|> 
|> Centigram Communications Corp, San Jose California  408/428-3553

	Elya Kapelyan