From: a0cb@odin.cc.pdx.edu (Chris Bertholf)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Consultations with a Rabbi
Date: 18 Dec 92 23:35:48 GMT
Article-I.D.: pdxgate.6595
Organization: Portland State University, Computing Services

khaikin@boa.cis.ohio-state.edu (dmitry khaikin) writes:

>This is actually a very good test for everybody to see just how strong
>of a Jew they are. I am sure (hope not) that somebody out there is going
>to reply to him and ask for that ... booklet. 

Sounds like you might be afraid of what that ... booklet might have to say!

>So, my fellow Jews, it is
>the self-check time! If you are even thinking that this guy might be
>right and that you better check it out, of course, not for the
>converting reasons, but just out of curiosity, then you are in trouble!

I'd have to agree here.  Having an open mind and engaging in an 
investigation into this for purely educational purposes definitely
means you are losing your grip on your Judaism. NOT!

>Yes, that's exactly how it starts. Just curious, you say. Well, the only
>reason you can be curios of what that guy really has to say is because
>you don't have the feel (I am not talking about the knowledge anymore
>here) for Judaism.

How what starts?  If there is nothing true about what he has to say, then
what could it start.  You sound like you are searching yourself here, and
trying to gain concensus by getting others to join you in your less than
open minded (and, it sounds like somewhat strained) ability to explore
your beliefs.

>No matter how much you know, do not listen to what he
>says! Although, he says pretty stupid things that are supposed to be
>obvious to everybody, there of course is somebody who knows alittle bit
>more then yo do.
           ^^you

Yes. Close your ears and eyes.  Don't listen. Don't think about how
it may be wrong (or right) and dismiss it completely.  It doesn't
have the slightest meaning in your lives, so ignore it instead of
understanding it, and being better preparred to deal with similar
arguments with thoughtful, reasoned responses.

>So, what do yo do then? You go and ask a Rabbi about
>the things that you don't understand. Don't just leave it hanging in the
>air. Ask! BUT Do not accept it first! Even if you don't know or not
>satisfied with the answer of a Rabbi, do not accept what he says!

Now this makes some sense.  Consult with a Rabbi.  Share the information
you have investigated, and try to come to an understanding on your own,
with the learned help of a Rabbi.  I'm not sure how this good suggestion
got in here with all of the stupid ones, but it did!

>In the worst case you know one thing: You are Jewish and that stuff is not
>for you! I know that this is not (not always) a Reform point of view, but
>please take it from Orthodox this time. In any case make sure you don't
>accept what he says. He is trained to get people that don't really know
>about the Bible and don't have that Jewish feel. Don't let him destroy us! 

He is not trying to destroy us!  He has a different viewpoint, and it
bears consideration (especially if you are comfortable with what you
know and believe).  Why is it wrong for a set of people that are Jewish
(culturally) to wish to maintain the cultural AND religious aspects of
Judaism to also believe that the messiah was JC. Apparently one thing
that doesn't seem to be understood by many posters here is that good
Christians are fairly well in touch with Judaism; they have to be to
really understand their faith.  I personally have no problem with other
Jews that do not share all of my beliefs.  I also do not tend to
tell them that they are not Jewish just because I disagree with them
on what Judaism is.  It is more than religion! Or have you forgotten
that?

It appears that many posters have either forgotten or deny that
Christianity is based on Judaism, was started by Jews, and has
more in common with Judaism than it has in opposition to Judaism.

Just because some Christian philosophers (Thomas Aquinas, etc.)
suggest that it superceeds Judaism does not mean it is so.
Judaism, and an understanding of Judaism, is essential to the
Christian faith, as is evidenced by the 'official view' published
in Nostra Atae (the doctrine of the papacy).  Before you go 
condemning those that wish to understand and maintain the
cultural and religious underpinnings of Christianity, try to
look a bit further than your fears.  Realize that they have
just as much of a right to preserve their cultural and religious
backgrounds, especially those portions which are not in conflict
with any beliefs that you do not hold.

>Do not think it is just a joke here. It is too close to home. I
>personally know a girl who got cought on that kind of crap! Don't make
>the same mistake!

She must not have been very sure of herself or her religion. Or she found
a convincing argument. I wonder which it was... And, unlike you, I intend
to investigate it, and make my own decision, based on best evidence
insetad of fear, paranoia, and ignorance.

>Another question is how to get rid of this walking disgrace to Judaism?

And yet another question is how to get rid of prejudiced, short-sighted,
close-minded, brainwashed, and intollerant people such as you!  You are
the true disgrace to Judaism.  I'm glad I don't have to introduce you
to my non-Jewish friends as representative of Judaism and Jews.

>Well, first thing that comes to my mind is to put him in kill files, but
>now I don't think it is a good idea, since (so called) weak Jews will
>not do that and as a result, he will say anything he wants here.

And, he has a right to say anything he wants here, because your definition
of Judaism is not the only one, and it may not even be the correct one!

I can't believe the intollerance I witness here daily.  Predjudice is a
learned behaviour.  People who have only this network as a resource for
communicating with other Jews could learn it very well from many of you.
Christians that read your prejudical drivel could easily get the idea
that Jews hate Christians and would do anything to silence them.
Fortunately, I know that is not so, but your attitude really disgusts me.
They could also get the non-mistaken idea that most of you call anyone who
does not agree with your beliefs and convictions regarding Judaism
anti-Semitic, and Jews who disagree with you "non-Jews".  Get a grip!!!!

Happy Channukah to All,
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish