From: dean@vexcel.com (Dean Alaska)
Subject: Re: Population growth and cultural destruction (Re: Nasty
Organization: VEXCEL Corporation, Boulder CO
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 16:20:41 GMT

In article <724303803snx@tillage.DIALix.oz.au> gil@tillage.DIALix.oz.au (Gil Hardwick) writes:
>
>In article <1992Dec13.202328.21968@vexcel.com> dean@vexcel.com writes:
>
> > How useful is the kerosene stove to a population for which kerosene
> > may get too expensive? How many of the local designs would be in use
> > if the kerosene stove had not been available? How much local intiative
> > was used to design a stove thousands of miles away? Do you believe
> > local people wer at all involved in its marketing?  Why?
>
>Whether kerosene may or may not get too expensive remains to be seen.
>The point is that *now* people want to buy kerosene (and gas) stoves
>so their lives become that much easier *now* so they are in a better
>position to experiment, innovate, design, and change *later*.

I am not suggesting that anything be denied to people because of my
opinions.  I am suggesting that these things not be forced onto them.
And if there are any people from these countries who would like to
join in the debtae, I would be happy to see it. 
>
> > The question is how much contact is needed and to what degree local
> > conditions should be taken into consideration. Stein suggested that
> > local people should be given a lot of control. This is not the case now.
>
>The more local control, the better. If people need assistance it is
>not at all difficult in those circumstances to specific exactly what
>is required, then browse the world for the most favourable terms. That
>is almost impossible with a whole lot of foreigners there arguing the
>pitch and toss over what is the "best thing" to do, which at best only
>gives everyone a headache.
>
>If you want to join the queue of providers to the "Third World", you
>might be mindful that these days there is an international standard of
>competition, and you had better be good at whatever it is you do.

What I am _trying_ to focus on is the domination of this process by
outsiders such as the World Bank, and occasionally, the local elites
that they support.  I am not suggesting that a different set of
outsiders replace the function of the World Bank.  Has anything I
have said suggest that that is my goal?
>
> > The Soviet Union had limited tranfers to the people partly because
> > of security reasons and partly because they had a centralized system
> > that stunted production.  I am advocating local decentralized 
> > decision-making in developing cultures.  Your suggestion that 
> > countries not be "technologically special" smacks of central control
> > by the World Bank or whatever.  
>
>Dean, however centralised or localised the decision-making process may
>be in one country or another is entirely within their own prerogative
>as a sovereign state. Whatever you may want to advocate, as local people
>get the hands-on experience of running of their own system it is up to
>them to adapt and modify it is time goes by themslves.
>
>If you want to join the queue of advisors, again, you had better be of
>world class if anyone is going to listen to you.

Again, have I suggested this?  _Some_ of the centralized governments
we refer to were set up and supported by outsiders because it served
their needs to have such people in power.  If my country supported
such a government (and it has), then I will try to change _my_
governments involvement in this process.  My governments dominance
of so-called multi-lateral funding institutions has a similar, if
better disguised, effect. 
>
>--
>Gil Hardwick                          Internet:  gil@tillage.DIALix.oz.au
>Independent Consulting Ethnologist                  Fidonet:  3:690/660.6
>PERTH, Western Australia                         Voice:  (+61 9) 399 2401
>   * * Sustainable Community Development & Environmental Education * *


-- 

		dingo in boulder	(dean@vexcel.com)
From: beatty@hpavla.lf.hp.com (Chris Beatty)
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 16:27:33 GMT
Subject: Re: "What is OZONE", 6 year old's Science Project
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Little Falls Site