HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: donb@igor.tamri.com (Don Baldwin)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Getting started in reloading
Date: 21 Nov 92 02:16:07 GMT
Organization: TOSHIBA America MRI, South San Francisco, CA

In article <1992Nov18.024121.4228@bbxrbk> bbx!bbxrbk!russ@unmvax.cs.unm.edu
(Russ Kepler) writes:
#Maybe someone in the Bay Area would be willing to show Don the ropes
#as reloading goes?  Let him play with some gear, explain the setup and
#maybe he'll have a better idea of the tools necessary.  You don't
#*have* to have a primer flip tray or lube pad - you can handle it
#onesey-twosey on a single stage press (or with a Lee primer thingy)
#and some folks have almost convinced me that spray lube is the way to
#go (but I grew up on motor honey...)  The only things that you *have*
#to have are a press, dies and scale.  

N.B.  I would happily supply appropriate amounts of brewed beverages
      to anyone willing to do so.  I'm good at RTFMing but it's
      sometimes best to learn from an expert...

   donb, gun and beer lover (but not in combination!)
From: craig@osf.org (Craig Peterson)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Bad tactical position ( was Psychology in Defense)
Date: 20 Nov 92 22:32:42 GMT
Organization: Open Software Foundation

Remember that a civilian has absolutely no responsibility to apprehend
a suspect.  (This is part of the reason for the difference in
acceptable levels of force viz. the restriction of the use of
bludgeons by civilians.)

Giving a burglar/robber the opportunity to escape is most likely the
best thing you could do.  Remember the fight or flight reflex.  In
most cases, showing a firearm will cause the suspect to flee.

Providing the PD with a good description of the suspect will always
help.

Craig Peterson
Police Trainer
ASLET
EMT-I
-- 
Craig Peterson, n8ino	craig@mainstream.com
PO Box 1120, Merrimack, NH  03054-1120
Unless otherwise noted opinions expressed are not those
of my employers.
From: rigg@ssdt-tempe.sps.mot.com (Dana Rigg)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Glocks
Date: 19 Nov 92 21:06:15 GMT

-> #Jammed. (guy insisted on using lead reloads in violation of Mfgr's
-> #warning)

[ CUT ... ]

-> Is it possible to get a feed job done on a Glock to let it run lead bullets??

I missed the original post, but I assume that it has something to do with
Glocks not feeding lead bullets.  I just fired 200 rounds of 125 gr. LRN
reloads (I used 4 different powders, 50 rounds of each) this morning
without a single feeding problem.  In fact, 125gr. LRNs is all I have ever
fired in this UNMODIFIED gun since I bought it (3000 rounds maybe?).

The gun has never had a feeding problem caused by lead bullets.  The only
problems I have had related to weak springs that the manufacturer has since
upgraded in new guns.  I don't know anybody that has had Glock misfeeds
caused by lead bullets.

As far as a manufacturers warning, I don't recall one saying not to use lead 
reloads, I recall it saying reloads, period.  All manufacturers state this
warning to reduce their liability in case of accident.  They usual void the
warrenty on new guns if reloads are fired through it.

Dana Rigg
Chandler, AZ
rigg@ssdt-tempe.sps.mot.com
From: apskato@vax1.mankato.msus.edu
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: What to buy....
Date: 19 Nov 92 15:07:36 GMT
Organization: Mankato State University

In article <1992Nov17.154055.20541@cbnews.cb.att.com>, webdw@mvutd.att.com (Bruce D Woods) writes:
# In article <1992Nov14.043630.21903@bbxrbk> bbx!bbxrbk!russ@unmvax.cs.unm.edu (Russ Kepler) writes:
# #
# #So, I'm asking folks to name what they think will be banned, assuming
# #that a ban is possible and is attempted.  I've got a lot of what I'd
# #expect to be banned (SKS, AR-15, etc) but what other toys do folks
# #think may be banned?  I'm really not interested in the HK-91 (I reload
# #for a friend with one) and sort of like the SP89 (true ban bait here,
# #no?).  Are there others that folks feel are nice pieces and potential
# #ban targets?
# 
# The "toys" you might consider first might be imported semi-automatic
# rifles and the imported ammo. for them.  If you wish, also consider
# laying in a supply of high capacity (>10 rounds) magazines for them.
# It may be that Clinton's new BATF director just issues an import ban
# on those type of weapons.  (an example - the PRC type 56 rifle).
# 

This is starting to enter the realm of t.p.g, but Clinton might not be able to
appoint a new head for the ATF.  Some of those political appointments are not
as susceptable to the winds of political change as others are.  
 
Eric Huber
Mankato State University
Law Enforcement Program

#
From: jheath@fieldofdreams.npirs.purdue.edu (Jim Heath)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Bad tactical position ( was Psychology in Defense)
Date: 19 Nov 92 15:13:05 GMT
Organization: Center for Environmental and Regulatory Information Systems, Purdue University

#From article <1992Nov17.150521.9088@news.yale.edu>, by swatt%mickey@net.yale.edu (Alan Watt):
# 
# In article <1992Nov16.212303.14944@news.acns.nwu.edu>, mikea@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Michael A. Atkinson) writes:
# |> viking@iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson) writes:
# |> 
# |> #	I remember a thing known as "Turkish Revenge."  Basically, if
# |> #you shot somebody below the waist it wasn't considered attempted murder
# |> #but only assault with a deadly weapon.
# |> # <...>
# |> #
# |> #	[MODERATOR: Let's underscore right away what said jury would
# |> #	 hear, then you be the judge about sympathy:  "So, Mr. Sorenson,
# |> #	 you DECIDED to shoot my poor client in the kneecap, rendering
# |> #	 unto him a permanently disabling wound with extensive pain and
# |> #	 suffering
# |> #		<...>
# |> 
# |> The one thing I've had drilled into me the most after basic firearms safety
# |> (treat all weapons as if they are loaded, don't put your finger on the
# |> trigger until you are ready to fire, never point one at something you are
# |> not willing to have dead) is that you shoot to STOP.  You shoot, hopefully
# |> at the center of mass, until the guy has STOPPED.
# |> 
# |> I really don't think that shooting below the waist is a good idea unless
# |> that's your only good target.
# 
# 
# Massad Ayoob recommends that when you are covering someone who *MIGHT*
# have a weapon, your point of aim should be at the waist or the pelvic
# area.  Most important reason is that your gun won't block your view of his
# hands.  Additionally, it might have some extra intimidating effect.
# 
# If the perp. produces a contact weapon and charges, Ayoob recommends
# you shoot for the pelvic area, the theory being that will have a
# better chance of dropping him.  With a contact weapon, if perp. can't
# reach you he can't hurt you.  If perp. produces a firearm, you need
# to shift your aim back up to center of mass.
# 
# Note, this does not dispute anything said by OHM regarding the
# defensibility of intentional wounding.
#

Alistair Maclain (sp?) ("Guns of Navarrone", "Ice Station Zebra",
"Golden Gate", etc.) often had his heroes using small caliber
guns (Lilliputs) and aiming for the inside of the hip (femoral
artery).  His claim was that it would disable the opponent
quickly from shock presuming the artery was hit.  He also claimed
the guy would die fairly quickly unless there was a good surgeon
available and that the he would be crippled as well.  Has anyone
seen any real data on these theories?
-- 
"Land of song, said the warrior bard,           Jim Heath
Though all the world betrays thee.
One sword, at least, thy rights shall guard, (The Minstrel Boy)
One faithful harp will praise thee."         (Thomas Moore)
From: rigg@ssdt-tempe.sps.mot.com (Dana Rigg)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: NRA Reloading Manuals: Review
Date: 20 Nov 92 22:32:27 GMT

Hi All!

I just got 3 reloading manuals (.45 ACP, 9mm, .223) in the mail from
the NRA via their book sales service.  Each manual is dedicated to one
caliber and the 3 I purchased cost $6.95 each (plus shipping).

The manuals are spiral bound with paper covers (I hoped they would at
least be laminated but no such luck).  Each manual basically consists of
copies of the pages from manuals produced by the various bullet and
powder manufacturers.  Each manual is approximately 30-35 pages long,
containing laoding information for a wide variety of bullets and powders.

Review:

Binding:  Pretty good, although there are a lot of rough edges in the
          binding holes so the first look at the manual dumped a lot of
          paper shards in my lap.  Also, the cover is paper;  I would
          have preferred that it was at least laminated so it doesn't
          get ruined when you lay the book in a puddle of gun oil or
          lubricant.

Copy Quality:  Overall, copy quality was excellent.  The quality on the
               worst pages was, at the least, very good.  The worst pages
               included some shading for max loads that may have been in
               color in the original text so the shading on the copies
               ranges from very dark to almost unseen.  The text within
               the shading is legible in all cases.

Content:  All of the major and most of the minor bullet and powder 
          manufacturers are represented in the manual.  There is, however,
          no additional data above and beyond that found in the manuals
          from which the data is lifted.  That means that little data is
          available for your run-of-the-mill lead bullets.

NRA Service:  Excellent!  Many years ago, I could not call the NRA and get
              competent help.  Not so anymore!  When I ordered the manuals,
              the NRA operator was very professional.  She took my order,
              repeated it, and got it correct the first time.  The manuals
              were in my mail box 1 week later.

Results:

Anyone that is looking for a collection of reloading data for a single
caliber should be very happy with these manuals.

Dana Rigg
Chandler, AZ
rigg@ssdt-tempe.sps.mot.com
From: kdlin@advtech.uswest.com (David Lin)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Muzzelite Mini-14 Bullpup Stock
Date: 19 Nov 92 15:09:29 GMT
Organization: U S WEST Advanced Technologies

Does anyone have one of these fancy bullpup stocks for his/her Ruger
Mini-14? It looks to me that it is a good design: you have a rifle
length barrel and yet the whole thing is compact and light weight.
However, how is the trigger pull? Is it really as handy as it is
advertized? Is it legal to "dress up" your Mini-14 with a bullpup
stock? Any comments will be appreciated.

David @ Gunbarrel, Colorado
-- 
 K. David Lin, Ph.D.              | E-mail: kdlin@advtech.uswest.com  
 Communication Services Research  | Defend your life with style! -- Beretta
 U S WEST Advanced Technologies   | Disclaimer: Only personal opinions
From: rdh@sli.com (Robert D. Houk)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Thanksgiving in Arizona
Date: 16 Nov 92 01:09:11 GMT
Organization: Software Leverage, Inc. Arlington, Ma

I'll be spending the "week" of 22-Nov to 30-Nov in Arizona (Phoenix).

Bearing in mind the charter of this newsgroup, does anyone have any rec-
commendations for any interesting, ah, events happening that week that
I might be able to persuade my budding young protege gunnuts to attend?
Say a friendly family IPSC match (I'll be bringing along a coupla toys
for them to play with; I've already hooked her on a Browning High Power,
but he seems enamored with a Glock), or an IHMSA range that allows .223,
or a machine gun shoot, or . . .

Email and save net bandwidth . . . Thanks!

					-RDH
From: bobd@marune.acs.ohio-state.edu (Bob DeBula)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: .45 caliber handguns
Date: 19 Nov 92 21:04:01 GMT
Organization: The Ohio State University

In article <199211171738.AA29466@cherokee.advtech.uswest.com> kdlin@advtech.uswest.com (David Lin) writes:
#In article <1992Nov17.023032.19198@igor.tamri.com> donb@igor.tamri.com (Don Baldwin) writes:
##....
##Anyway, after all that rambling, here is the question I would like to
##ask:
##    Is it possible for me to get an accurate 1911 Colt/clone for less
##    than the price of a Gold Cup (about $800) and STILL have it be a
##    versatile combat handgun?
##
#
#Let me take a shot again. :)
#
#My understanding/experience is that a NIB 1911 *may* need some work done to be
#reliable/accurate. A Sig P220, on the other hand, is *usually* very good out 
#of box. 

Nothing against SIGs, but one could probably take the $800 to a reasonably
large gun show and by dint of haggling obtain a nice Series 70 or earlier
Colt Gold Cup which would probably be pretty acceptable for moderate target use
as is. Folks need to get away from the fixation of only buying new firearms
from a shop when looking for quality. A lot of post war (and pre war)
Colts are awfully nice and don't usually seem to command astronomical
(until next year) prices at shows. Be prepared to spend one long and
intense day at a large show though (and as always happens to me --
if you see what you want and the price is *good* buy it, because in
fifteen minutes from then, it will be *gone*  and you won't
find another bargain like it :-).
-- 
==========================================================================
              Disclaimer: These are my views, not the U's

        "If it's in the paper it must be true!" --- D. Doright
From: @prism.cs.orst.edu
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Price on Mac-11 Full auto?
Date: 20 Nov 92 22:31:54 GMT
Organization: Oregon State University, Computer Science Dept.

Howdy.

	Anyone have a good guess on what a 'good' price on a full-auto
	Mac11 with a suppressor would be? (Well, maybe 'realistic' price
	is better. I figure something like $1.26 would probably be 'good',
	but not too helpful... :-)

	I'm specifically thinking a Cobray (sp?) suppressor.

	Please specify if you're including federal transfer tax or not
	in your guess. E-mail is preferred since I usually don't get
	to lurk here too much. :-)

					Thanks!
					-Clay
From: robert_walton@NeXT.COM (Robert Walton)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: American Rifleman = Consumer Reports?
Date: 17 Nov 92 02:09:21 GMT
Article-I.D.: rosie.5888


In article <1992Nov14.175828.5451@henson.cc.wwu.edu>  
n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio) writes:
[edited stuff]
# 
# 	BTW, they also did a review on EEA's "windicator" revolvers, which
# have frames cast from zinc.  They mentioned nothing about zinc, but
# did say several times that they were made from "Zamak".  
# 
# I couln't believe it.  I felt like I was reading G&A or something.
# 
# 	What could an AR editor possibly have to gain by concealing from 
# NRA readers the fact that the review gun is a cast zinc "sns", ala  
Jennings
# Raven and Bryco?   It's not like AR gets paid for positive reviews or 
# something, is it?
# 
# Jim Del Vecchio

Yeah, I was disappointed too.  I've never heard of Zamak before reading  
the article.  I was also surprised they just didn't come right out and say  
the Windicator pretty much stank, rather than beating about the bush.  I,  
too, assume they probably don't have as much pressure from advertisers as  
the other mags do [but maybe I'm wrong].

I would *really* like to see AR become the "Consumer Reports" of Firearms  
(since to my knowledge CR never "stoops" to firearms review), complete  
with ratings, reviews, and such...  Sorely needed!
From: alane@microsoft.com (Alan Ezekiel)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Bad tactical position ( was Psychology in Defense)
Date: 19 Nov 92 15:13:24 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corporation

scylax!tiglath@uunet.UU.NET writes:

  [when do you shoot a perpetrator you are holding at gunpoint?]

#Waiting him out is not safe.  He may be waiting for his mate or mates.

You cannot shoot a perpetrator because he MAY have friends nearby.
According to Massad Ayoob, any time you have to say "what if..."
in order to justify your actions, you should not fire.  That is
known as "bare fear" -- you ASSUMED facts not in evidence because
you were afraid.  Bare fear is not sufficient grounds to kill.

#A. The perp has hurt someone in my family, I am holding him at gunpoint.
#again he doesn't obey but indicates he wants to go, call it quits,
#and gently, unmenacingly, he moves to leave.  Do I let him go?

The law requires you to let him leave.  Vengance is mine, sayeth
the US legal system.

#B. Some one is picking the lock. I heard the noise and I see a black 
#clad figure slowly entering the now open balcony door.  I am behind the 
#door armed,  do I shoot first?

If a criminal intruder has forced entry into your bedroom, you will
generally be justified to shoot.  Note that you must still positively
identify your target -- you would not wish to shoot a member of your
family who forgot their keys.

#C. The good guy is sick, old and weak.  He holds the perp at
#gunpoint in his small bedroom, the perp has a knife in his waist. he is
#young, muscular, large...

In this circumstance, our old/sick/weak defender should never have
issued verbal commands at all.  He should have shot the intruder
without warning.

Why?  Because all three elements of the threat triangle (ability,
opportunity, jeopardy) are fulfilled in this case, and the defender
has no reasonable nonlethal options.  Remember the Tueller drill: at
close range (such as within a small bedroom) the person who decides
to act first will win, regardless of their choice of weapon.  Human
reaction times are not fast enough to allow an effective defense if
the intruder acts first.  Issuing a challenge in such circumstances,
especially considering the defender's physical state, would be very
unwise.

                               -- Alane --
   /-----------------------------------------------------------------\
  /   NOBODY shares my opinions,    |    "I am a jelly doughnut"      \
 /    especially not my employer    |    -- President John F Kennedy   \
/-----------------------------------------------------------------------\
From: cbl@uihepa.hep.uiuc.edu (Chris Luchini)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: speed strips
Date: 19 Nov 92 15:14:34 GMT
Organization: High Energy Physics, University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign

Who makes the 'speed strips' for 38 sp ammo?


Where can I find some?

-c
*1110 W. Green/Urbana IL 61801/217-333-0505/cbl@uihepa.hep.uiuc.edu
From: hollombe@polymath.tti.com (The Polymath)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Right-handed/left-eyed: how to retrain eyes?
Date: 20 Nov 92 13:47:04 GMT
Organization: The Cat Factory

In article <1992Nov16.190904.17903@u.washington.edu> basiji@stein.u.washington.edu (David Basiji) writes:
}
}I am right handed but left-eye dominant.
}I currently have three options with my right-handed rifle:
}	1) shoot left handed and struggle to work the action
}	2) shoot right handed with my left eye closed
}	3) shoot right handed with both eyes open.

For what it's worth, the NRA teaches you to shoot on the side of your
dominant eye, regardless of your dominant hand.  I.e.:  They say go with
option 1.  I'm told most people find their shooting improves when they do
this.

The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe, M.A., CDP, aka: hollombe@polymath.tti.com)
Head Robot Wrangler at Citicorp
3100 Ocean Park Blvd.   (310) 450-9111, x2483
Santa Monica, CA  90405
From: apskato@vax1.mankato.msus.edu
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Bad tactical position ( was Psychology in Defense)
Date: 20 Nov 92 22:32:11 GMT
Organization: Mankato State University

In article <01GRCLXPAVC0000E83@MSUS1.MSUS.EDU>, KEVIN@MSUS1.MSUS.EDU (Kevin Whyte) writes:
# 
# 17 shots and only three hits?!?  Is that typical?!?  The story is tragic but
# what happened to the other 14 rounds?
# 
# 
Yes, it is typical.  TV has warped our perceptions of how accurate police and
civilians are with their weapons.  A statistic that has been quoted to me by a
prof I know (Dr. William Lewinski, a co-contributor to Tactical Edge by
Calibre press and formerly of the Street Survival seminar by that same 
company) says that cops hit what they are shooting at 21 percent of the time
and non-officers hit what they shoot at like 18 percent of the time. (these are
statistical averages so your mileage will vary widely based on the amount and
level of training, of course, but it is interesting to think about)
 
Also, there are more cases of officers being shot by other officers than the
public realizes.  A lot of this type of thing happens during  raids or
other undercover operations.  We were just discussing this the other night with
the chief of one of the suburban police departments from the twin cities.  He
says pre-raid briefings do a lot to hold this occurance down.   The Chief said
on multiple occasions during raids he has found himself and another officer
drawing down on each other because as a local officer you never know when you
are executing a warrant whether the some of the bad guys are actually FBI
agents or whoever.  It really makes pre-raid breifing and interagency
co-ordination an important thing.

Eric Huber
Mankato State University
Law Enforcement Program
From: cash@convex.com (Peter Cash)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: .357 in a 9mm
Date: 23 Nov 92 14:24:41 GMT
Organization: The Instrumentality

In article <mac.722284369@depot.cis.ksu.edu.cis.ksu.edu> mac@cis.ksu.edu (Myron A. Calhoun) writes:
...

#Now I'm curious why I can't shoot 9mm in the same revolver which already
#shoots .357 Magnum and the 0.1" shorter .38 Special.  Just how much
#shorter is a 9mm cartridge?

It's not just a matter of disparity in length--the 9mm headspaces on the
mouth of the case, while the .38 and .357 are rimmed revolver rounds, and
headspace on that rim. 

In other words, the chamber of a 9mm gun has to have a little raised ring
in it to stop the cartridge from falling too far in.  The mouth of the
cartridge case comes to rest against the rim. That's why case length is
much more important in a 9mm than in a revolver round--if the case is too
long, the round will stick out too far; if the case is too short (maybe
because you crimped it too much), the case goes in too far, and the firing
pin can't reach it. (And that's why you shouldn't try to fire a .380 in a
9mm parabellum chamber--the case is too short, and you won't get reliable
ignition.)

In contrast,the .38 or .357 revolver cartridges just go into the chamber
until they're stopped by the rim at the cartridge head. If you tried to
shove a .357 into a 9mm chamber, it wouldn't go in nearly far enough
because of the chamber rim. That's why you need separate cylinders for 9mm
and .38/.357 rounds.

-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
             |      Die Welt ist alles, was Zerfall ist.     |
Peter Cash   |       (apologies to Ludwig Wittgenstein)      |cash@convex.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: vanetten@unix.cie.rpi.edu (John S. Van Etten)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: S&W 915
Date: 20 Nov 92 13:46:58 GMT

I'm trying to find a wholesaler that has the S&W 915 so I can get one.  The
folks I normally get S&W products from don't have any in stock.  Does
anyone know of a cheap source for them?  (Please, no flames about stooping
to the level of owning a "wounder-nine" from my fellow 1911A1 fans -- it's
just going to be a plinker.  For very *small* cans :-).

Thanks for any info.


John

******************************************************************************
               John S. Van Etten     vanetten@unix.cie.rpi.edu
       Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute  1000 MIPS GaAs F-RISC Project
       --"If sand didn't irritate oysters, there would be no pearls"--
From: JCEHC%CUNYVM.BITNET@mitvma.mit.edu
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Gun Books
Date: 21 Nov 92 02:16:04 GMT
Organization: City University of New York/ University Computer Center


   Someone asked me to provide the address for the Rutgers Book Center
who sell primarily gun books.  They are:

                            Rutgers Book Center
                            127 Raritan Avenue
                            Highland Park, NJ  08904
                            tel # (908) 545-4344

  Their catalog of several thousand gun books has a price of $1 on
the cover but I've alwasy been sent it for free, as a repeat customer.

Michael Gordon