HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: das@unislc.uucp (David Shorten)
Subject: Re: Tae Kwon Do, getting a Black Belt, etc...
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Organization: Unisys Corporation SLC
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 22:36:15 GMT

Mike Hurben (hurben@lamar.ColoState.EDU) wrote:
: schools do this?  What happens is we have 'Black Belt recommend' which is what
: you get if you pass test 1, and you also get to wear the belt.  Then, the
: second test is for '1st Dan.'  Now, I don't believe that there is any way that
: I can become 1st Dan in just 6 or 7 months, partially because I don't think
: anyone should be able to get it within that short a time span.  But I think that
: if I really push, I might make recommend.  Is this a reasonable goal?  How
: many years "should" it take?  If nothing else, having this goal will make me
: work much harder, and that will be good for me, regardless of how I do on my 
: test.  I just don't want to waste my money.  Any thoughts?
: 
: Kom-sahm-nee-da
: 
: Mike Hurben
: 
Well.. given that it's up to your teacher to know when you're ready for
a particular rank, and that rank doesn't really matter that much in
the grand scheme of things (or to how "good" an m-a-ist you are). 
And also given (despite the above) that most everybody in Korean and 
Japanese m-a's wants a Black Belt, you will probably be interested 
in the following datum:

I have a friend who happened to be in Korea for 24 months, and with
no previous experience got his black belt in TKD in that time.  I
wasn't aware of the existence of 'recommend' rank, so I didn't ask
him whether he had received full 1st Dan.  I do know he spent 10-12
hours per week working out in a small (3-5 people) class.  I lost 
track of him about 5 years ago, so I can't really ask if he got
'recommend' or full in that time period.

In short: yes, from what little I know that's probably a reasonable 
goal in that style.

Dave S.
From: ee154fbk@sdcc15.ucsd.edu (M)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Stand for punching bag in room
Date: 16 Nov 92 07:24:09 GMT

I would like tp put up a punching band in my room.  The only thing I
have seen in magazines are stands which are mounted in a door way.
Anyone know of decent price stands one could hang up a bag on that
would be standing on the floor as opposed to hanging in a doorway??

If they exist what price range are we talking???

Thanks.

ee154fbk@sdcc15.ucsd.edu
From: dunger@crsa.bu.edu (David Unger)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: The art of head-butting!
Date: 17 Nov 92 23:43:47 GMT
Organization: Boston University Center for Remote Sensing


	Headbutting is stupid unless you have no other opions
which I doubt will happen>
First of all it is proven that you usually hurt your head just
as much as the other persons.
Secondly in this day and age what if you hit his teeth or something
exchanging bodily fluids is dangerous you know?

--Dave
From: ttk@ucscb.UCSC.EDU (the troglodyte killer)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Boxing vs Martial Arts
Date: 21 Nov 1992 19:17:24 GMT
Organization: University of California; Santa Cruz
NNTP-Posting-Host: ucscb.ucsc.edu
Keywords: Daddy


>I bet my daddy can beat up your daddy!
 
     Heh, bet he can't -- he'd have to come through me first.  :->
 
(Witness the rebirth of the "military protecting the fatherland" 
concept..)
 
     If only non-military citizens of a country could attack 
another country, and the role of the military was regulated solely 
to the purpose of protecting one's country from invasions, the 
world'd be a somewhat more peaceful place..  :-)  But I doubt 
it'll happen anytime soon.
 
     ('Scuze me for the ramble, was free-associating on the 
analogy of one's father being the untrained civilian population 
and the son being the combat-optimized military population, and 
I'm stuck in bed with a four-degree fever, and I was hallucinating 
last night ..  And I really shouldn't be on the net right now.)
 
/---\ /---\ /=   /   ttk@ucscb.UCSC.EDU (the troglodyte killer)
  =     =    = /    "Home is a place that keeps the rain off my computer"
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  =     =    =   \                      silence = death   \bi/
                                                           \/
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: glo@dvlseq.us.oracle.com (George Lo)
Subject: Re: The art of head-butting!
Organization: Oracle World HQ, Redwood Shores, California
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 19:57:10 GMT
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by an unauthenticated user
              at Oracle Corporation.  The opinions expressed are those
              of the user and not necessarily those of Oracle.

In article <102368@bu.edu> dunger@crsa.bu.edu (David Unger) writes:
>
>	Headbutting is stupid unless you have no other opions
>which I doubt will happen>
>First of all it is proven that you usually hurt your head just
>as much as the other persons.
>
I don't like headbutting, but it is not necessary that you
hurt yourself as much as your opponent.  When I played soccer
a lot before I came to US, I realized that hitting the ball
with the head is painful when you are not ready and afraid of
it.  But if you concentrate the force on your forehead to hit
the ball, there is no pain at all.



Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: jon@zeus.med.utah.edu (Jonathan Byrd)
Subject: Re: Kendo tournament report
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 18:19:18 GMT
	<JON.92Nov18110812@zeus.med.utah.edu>
	<1992Nov19.110340.1896@gnv.ifas.ufl.edu> <hurd.722293703@sfu.ca>
Organization: University of Utah

In article <hurd.722293703@sfu.ca> hurd@fraser.sfu.ca (Peter L. Hurd) writes:


   >> 	When I think about it, a Kendo referee's job is incredibly
   >> complex.  I'm sorry if I seemed to be complaining about the judging in
   >> my match.  I really have no right to criticize anyone's ability to do
   >> a job that I can't do myself.

   This has been bugging me the last few days.  I have thought deeply and come
   to the conclusion that we must have the ability to criticize people's ability
   at things we cannot do.  I admit that my motive has something to do with the
   fear that I will come to the conclusion that I cannot criticize politicians,
   or superiors in the workplace.  But in context, I ask you Jonathan, have you
   never seen a sensei criticize a students' kata, while admitting that he (she)
   could not do it better that the student?  We cannot be perfect, we can can all
   help eath other try, it's called coaching.

When I wrote those words, I was just trying to make it clear that I
harbored no bad feelings about the judgement in my matches.  Whatever
the outcome, I appreciate that the referees were genuinely trying to
be fair.  As long as I see an effort to be fair, I don't care as much
about the accuracy of the judging, as long as the safety of the
participants is ensured.

I do see your point, though.  It is possible to view someone's
performance, and honestly compare that performance to some objective
criterion.  Obviously, those who perform at a high level are best
suited to understand the subtleties, and render a circumspect
judgement.  This is probably why I haven't seen many referees
criticizing one another; they know how tough their job is, and give
each other an appropriate amount of leeway.

   The ease, caution, and
   sense of responsability, with which we dole out criticism are what we have
   to watch, rather than the fear that the reply will be "oh yeah, well let's
   see you do it smarty pants!

I agree that how you speak matters as much as what you say.  But even
when offered tactfully, criticism is of limited use.  As a teacher, I
have found that I can talk until I'm blue in the face, but my students
will tend to do what I do, not what I say.  In fact, one of the best
barometers of my own performance is to watch for the mistakes that are
common among my students.  Those bad habits are often traceable to me.

--
jonathan byrd
jon@apollo.med.utah.edu
From: ber@otter.hpl.hp.com (Brenda Romans)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 13:12:28 GMT
Subject: Re: Charging for training?
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Laboratories, Bristol, UK.
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts


I too was surprised at the way martial arts are taught in the USA.  I did
Shotokan Karate for a couple of years here in England and just paid the going
rate for any sports at the sports hall (approx 1 pound to 1.50).  After about a
year the instructor packed in his job to teach Karate full time because he
loved it.  I don't know how he made any money because he didn't charge any
more.  The "important" Shotokan guys from Liverpool seemed to be making money
but this was from commercial ventures associated with Karate - manufacturing
suits and bags, making videos and writing books.  They did hold special
training sessions and courses throughout the country but the charges were
nothing much, maybe five pounds for a one day course (and it might not even
have been that.)  I don't think that you can make much money in England just
doing martial arts training, people just wouldn't pay.

Judo in England is quite different. At my club I pay 1.50 (pounds) for a 1.5
hour session and *all* the money goes into club funds.  It pays for the hall
fees and anything else that the club needs.  The guys in charge run the club
and teach because the like doing it, and it's a pretty good club.  I have never
heard of Judo training being run on a commercial basis.  Maybe judo is
different because it is more of a sport.

BTW, I've never paid term fees - the arrangement at any judo or Karate club
I've been to was to pay whatever the fee was on the night.  If I didn't go, I
didn't pay.

How exactly do the operations in the USA work?

How much do you pay?

Are there commercial Judo outfits?

Cheers

Brenda
------------------------------------------------------------------
Brenda Romans @ HP Labs         |  Phone: (0272) 228705
Information Systems Centre      |  ber@hpl.hp.co.uk
Bristol                         |  ber%hplb.uucp@ukc.ac.uk
U.K.                            |  ber@hplb.hpl.hp.com


Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: fcrary@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (Frank Crary)
Subject: Re: Armor & Gunpowder...
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 07:05:19 GMT

In article <1e9ot2INNib3@west.West.Sun.COM> garth@dojo.West.Sun.COM writes:

[A great deal of accurate information deleted, to focus on a few exceptions:]

>Agincourt:
>...What
>I also didn't remember correctly were the odds...9000 English VS
>6000 French.

Really? Keegan puts it at 6000-7000 English (1000 men at arms and
the rest archers) versus 10,000 - 20,000 French.

>Muskets:
>...Once the flash
>pan was added, one man could carry, load and fire the musket, and in fact
>could do so at a military jog.

I invite you to try this: I've seen flintlocks (more advanced technology
than a flash pan) loaded. You can't possibly do this while jogging.

                                                      Frank Crary
                                                      CU Boulder
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: bburgar@cix.compulink.co.uk (Bill Burgar)
Subject: subject
Reply-To: bburgar@cix.compulink.co.uk
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 10:04:00 +0000



jonathan byrd (jon@apollo.med.utah.edu) writes:
>        The first time I was exposed to real top-class fighters in
>Karate, I noticed that they did something that I did not do: They
>stamped their feet with each technique.  Furthermore, they stamped
>their feet in precise timing with their blows.
>
>        Years later, when I began to study Kendo, I found that
>everybody stamped their feet.  The sound of their right foot hitting
>the floor was also simultaneous with the sound of their shinai hitting
>the target.  The result was a loud, resounding BAM! when they struck.
>The stamping action somehow added to the force of the blow.
>
>        Over time, I have polished my own fumikomi, and I think I
>finally have gained some understanding of the effect.  This has led me
>to an uncomfortable discovery: either my understanding of fumikomi is
>flawed, or most people time the stamping action improperly.
>
>        In my understanding, the stamping action is not done for its
>own end; it is simply a consequence of catching yourself from falling.
>As you launch yourself forward and shift your center of gravity, you
>immediately begin to fall at 9.8 meters per second squared.  Because
>your front foot is off the ground reaching forward, you simply free
>fall until your right foot lands with a stamping action, breaking your
>fall.
>
>        In order to use the acceleration due to gravity to help power
>your blow, you must strike before you break your fall and dissipate
>the energy of falling.  More specifically, you must break your fall by
>hitting your opponent with your weapon, not by stamping your foot.  At
>the instant of contact, all your weight is coming down on your
>opponent (via your weapon), instead of coming down on your front foot.
>
>        So here is the dilemma: to use gravity properly, shouldn't you
>make contact BEFORE your foot hits the ground, and breaks your fall?
>As I have fine-tuned my timing, I have indeed found that, instead of
>hearing one single BAM! of my foot and my sword, I hear kaBAM!, where
>the "ka" is the sound of my sword hitting the target, and the BAM is
>the sound of my foot.  I truly feel my strongest when I achieve this
>timing.
>
>        So here is the question: Am I deluded in thinking that I
>understand fumikomi?  Or are others mistaken in timing their
>foot-stamp and sword strike simultaneously?
>
>--
>jonathan byrd
>jon@apollo.med.utah.edu
>
>


I think you are spot on here. You must hit AN INSTANT before your foot
lands. Well actually still not quite right. You must hit an instant before
the shock of your foot landing can take anything away from the strike.


I think you will find reading Jack Dempsey's (world boxing champ) most
interesting. He developed what he called the Jolting punch and it is 
exactly as you have described. I can't remember the name of the book
but I'm sure you should be able to order it at your local bookshop.


Bill Burgar.
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: lund@ssd.kodak.com (Nate Lund)
Subject: Re: Combat effectiveness?
Organization: Eastman Kodak
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 92 18:09:36 GMT

In article <4254@unisql.UUCP> wrat@unisql.UUCP (wharfie) writes:
>In article <722248782snx@paragon.folly.welly.gen.nz>
>                             parry_r@kosmos.wcc.govt.nz writes:
>>Judo I dismissed right away
>
>	Pfffttttt.

pftooie indeed.
Shime waza can end a fight pretty d@%n quick.
(No need for twelve 3-minute rounds in Judo... :-)

>>Now, I want to know what you lot consider the single most effective
>>fighting art.  
>
>	Track.  

No doubt about it, discus, shot put, and the javelin are awesome ways of
dispatching an opponent.

But 1000 yard rifle match shooters have even better range.  :-)

In all seriousness, I would put my money on the dude in the F-15.

But of course everything we threw at Saddam wasn't good enough, since
he used the best move of them all... no-be-there!  :-)

Nate.
nlund@kodak.com

PS  of the list parry_r listed, either jujutsu or aikido, or, well,
    why compromise?  go for it all... aiki jujutsu!  :-)

PPS as for _which_ aiki jujutsu?  well, not that I am biased at all, :-)
    but, if you want to do aiki jujutsu with Bagua palm changes for
    added effect, as far as I know, there is only one:
    Tenshin Shin'Yo Ryu   8-}

PPPS  BUT EVERYONE KNOWS THERE IS NOTHING MORE FORMIDABLE THAN GREENO^D
(no carrier, session terminated <with extreme prejudice>)
From: garry@alice.att.com (garry hodgson)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: 10th Dan & Badass Karate (belt system)
Keywords: dirty smelly stinkin' gi
Date: 18 Nov 92 18:36:52 GMT
Reply-To: garry@alice.UUCP ()
Distribution: rec
Organization: AT&T, Bell Labs

In article <1992Nov15.190126.206@pages.com> kevin@pages (Kevin Sven Berg) writes:
   In article <1992Nov14.045400.26626@gagme.chi.il.us> phantom@gagme.chi.il.us  
   (Leif Ericksen) writes:
   [...snip snip ...]
   > 	True, the original belt systems was teh dirtier it was the
   > more experience you supposedly had.  THUS the tradition that YOU NEVER
   > EVER was your belt.

   'never wash you belt?

   This sounds like folklore, and I find it hard to believe arising from a
   society that places great value in bathing and cleanliness.

This is, indeed, karate tradition.  One *never* washes the obi.
I have found this to be universal among people from various 
japanese/okinawan styles I have known.






-- 
Garry Hodgson			A slow winter day
AT&T Bell Labs			A night like forever
garry@alice.att.com		Sink like a stone
att!alice!garry			Float like a feather
From: dccarr@cbnewsd.cb.att.com (david.c.carr)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: MA schools around St. Louis?
Date: 23 Nov 92 20:44:49 GMT
Organization: AT&T

Friend of mine now living just outside of
St. Louis, Mo. is looking for a school to train at.
He's nidan in a hybrid Okinawan style,
and is most interested in a kick/punch oriented art
but would like to hear about any good schools
regardless of style.

Anyone have any recomendations?


Dave Carr
ronin, wa bun bushi no michi
"No ordinary moments."
"Don't push the river, but don't pull no punches."
david.c.carr@att.com
From: jon@zeus.med.utah.edu (Jonathan Byrd)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Fight Strategy in Escrima
Date: 18 Nov 92 23:51:50 GMT
Organization: University of Utah

In article <102490@bu.edu> giancc@csa.bu.edu (Chris Giancola) writes:
   Speed is NOT the be all and end all in sword,
   old Kendo Masters can EASILY defeat young champions, since their
   knowledge of timing is SO well developed and ingrained into their
   fighting technique.

	Time for a little semantical nitpicking!

	I do believe that old masters *are* faster overall than the
young bucks that they easily defeat.

	There are three phases we pass through each time we deliver a
technique: The first phase is the time it takes to make "battle sense"
of the situation.  This means reading the opponent's intentions, and
seeing a window of vulnerability.  Of course, exuberant young fighters
do not hide their true intentions as well as crafty old masters do.
The second phase is the time it takes to determine a course of action
based upon our assessment of the enemy's intentions.  The last phase
is the physical delivery of the blow.

	The old men perform the last step slower, but their speed in
the first two steps more than compensates for the difference.  They
know almost instantaneously where the attack is coming from, and where
it is going.  They then avoid the attack and reflexively strike the
attacker's vulnerable spot.  There is an old saying about this special
ability that masters posess: "To know and to act are simultaneous."
Even though the sword is slower, there is less delay in sizing up the
situation, and choosing a wise course of action, so the overall time
is less.

	Of course, it almost always appears as if the masters are
slower, because they use counterblows almost exclusively.  I think
that this is mostly due to the difficulty of closing ranks quickly.
The old masters let us do all the exhausting footwork, and they just
patiently wait there for us.  That way, free-sparring with us is
slightly more palatable for them; we're merely boring, instead of
being completely tiresome.

	In all fairness, I should mention that the top shiai Kendoists
in the world are typically in their early- to mid-30s.  At this point,
they are physically very quick, plus they have over 20 years of
experience ingrained in their reflexes.  Even the old masters have a
hard time with these guys.

--
jonathan byrd
jon@apollo.med.utah.edu
From: ttk@ucscb.UCSC.EDU (the troglodyte killer)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Boxing vs Martial Arts
Date: 21 Nov 92 18:04:32 GMT
Organization: University of California; Santa Cruz
NNTP-Posting-Host: ucscb.ucsc.edu


>>>>>> On Fri, 20 Nov 92 15:06:54 GMT, schan@birch.srg.af.mil 
>>>>>>(Stephen Chan x4485) said:
>
>SC> Well, Renie, this is one of those questions which I've often wondered
>SC> myself. But, a more interesting question is this:
>SC> Could an evil Batman defeat Superman? Even if batman were old and
>SC> decrepit?
>
>That's silly, Stephen.  Batman is only a comic character, but Superman
>is _real_.  Of course the real person would win!
>But it would sure be a good fight, wouldn't it?
>P.S. Anyone else see Stand by Me?  Great flick.
 
     I'm EXTREMELY shocked at everyone here!  Does NOBODY keep 
track of these things?  Exactly this happened at the end of the 
Dark Knight Returns redention of the Batman graphic novel, even to 
the detail of Batman being old and decrepit (though Superman was 
no more evil than Ollie North -- he was just following orders).  
But you know what they say about old age and treachery..
 
     The most interesting part of the flick was who won..  Hint:  
The winner did not win the fight.  An aikidoka would've been 
proud, but it took me a bit to understand who the victor was.
 
/---\ /---\ /=   /   ttk@ucscb.UCSC.EDU (the troglodyte killer)
  =     =    = /    "Home is a place that keeps the rain off my computer"
  =     =    = \     B0 f- t+ w- g k s- m+ r- p-(++)     ______
  =     =    =   \                      silence = death   \bi/
                                                           \/
From: sog@craycos.com (Steve Gombosi)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: 10th Dan & Badass Karate (belt system)
Date: 17 Nov 92 07:38:32 GMT
Organization: Cray Computer Corporation

In article <1992Nov16.173012.7560@ms.uky.edu> bud@ms.uky.edu (William K Glunt) writes:
>In article <1e92d5INNivf@master.cs.rose-hulman.edu> acharya@HYDRA.ROSE-HULMAN.EDU writes:
>>
>>
>>we need to get this on the FAQ!
>>
>>as far as i know, the belt system was introduced by funakoshi. while on the
>>topic of belts, did kano also use a belt system in judo? steve...bud...anyone?
>>
>>mukund
>
>
> As I understand it, the belt system originated in Japan in the
> late 19 th century with Kano.  It wasn't till the 1920s and on that
> karate folk started using belts.  

Uh huh...

>  The classical martial arts of Japan didn't/don't use belt ranks.
>  There were various licences, but that's really a totally different
>  ball of wax.

A lot of pre-20th Century karate masters used the menkyo system as well -
although requirements were nowhere near as well codified as in the Japanese
arts.

>  Osu!

Osu yerownself! ;-)

Steve
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: geg@beep.mis.semi.harris.com (Gregory E. Garland)
Subject: Re: Counters
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 14:56:16 GMT
Organization: Manufacturing Systems, HSS

In article <1992Nov19.133842.21003@aber.ac.uk>, azw@aber.ac.uk (Andrew MPock
Woodward) writes:
|> 

[...]

|> My view, and that of m.a. people I have discussed this with (some of 
|> are GOOD), is that dan level and above has protective value on
|> the street, but below this, m.a. training can be a liability due to
|> an undeserved sense of invulnerability even against untrained but 
|> practised thugs.
|> [snip]

Sounds like these "m.a. people" don't practise or teach very good self
defense concepts.

-- 
Greg Garland - Alive, occupying space, and exerting gravitational force

MS 62-024, Harris Semiconductor Sector, PO Bx 883, 
Melbourne  FL 32905.  geg@beep.mis.semi.harris.com

"Never let the facts interfere with your perception of reality."