From: smithw@col.hp.com (Walter Smith)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Private antidiscrimination policies in CO (was Re: Attention...)
Date: 1 Jan 1993 01:01:32 GMT
Organization: Colorado Springs IT Center
NNTP-Posting-Host: fajita19.cs.itc.hp.com

anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson) writes:
> Since you've asked ...
> We haven't been having a calm discussion, Walter.  

Well, a *few* of the discussions have been worthwhile (in my 
mind, anyways; I've learned a lot) but I agree that most have 
just degenerated into flames.  

> We've
> been listening to remarkably jejeune comments, given at a
> length that astounds even me.  Let me repeat a question I
> believe Melinda asked you: why are you here?

Trying to get a better understanding on various issues, that 
aren't found in other places.  I have no desire to "cure" anyone, 
or convince anyone that homosexuality is 'bad', or persecute anyone, 
or tell anyone else how to live their life. I'm interested in 
hearing other's viewpoints(that I realize are probobly a lot
different than mine) and having them analyze my views; if that 
means having them picked apart and analyzed, that's probobly all 
the better.  
 
> Unless you can somehow manage to raise the level of the
> discourse on your side, I will cast my vote for the option
> of your going away.

I admit that I've fallen into "flame" mode with a number of the 
folks here; Bil Snodgrass and Bob Donahue for example.  That's 
not what I intended, nor do I want it.  I started out talking 
about the COTR books; and (as I see it) when I didn't 'change' 
my view on the subject to correspond to what others said, that's 
when things went downhill.  From my view, it's been some of the
regulars here that started degenerating things into a flamefest, 
because they didn't like what I said.  I've seen the same thing 
happening to other posters who speak minority viewpoints.  So 
I don't think it's just me.  In fact, I haven't seen anyone 
expound minority viewpoints in this group *not* get flamed for 
it.  I read a posting in a different thread that was talking about 
how to handle people who 'tresspass' into motss and speak such 
things; the advice was to basically jump all over them, flame 
them, to make an impression and a point.  And a lot of the 
regulars seem to follow that approach well.  My feeling is, 
*that* is why so many of the discussions fall into flamefests. 
And it's no better in alt.politics.homosexual...

On the other side of the coin, I'm *sure* that there are things 
myself and other "outsiders" say, that were not meant to be 
nasty of flame-baiting, or gay-bashing; but that are taken that 
way be people "in" the group.  There's a real language problem, 
among other things.  (lack of understanding from *both* sides) 
Which furthur results in "outsiders" thinking they are not being 
rude, or stooping the level of discourse, and "insiders" taking 
it as bashing and flaming back.  Then the "outsider" wonders why
the hell he's getting flamed, and after it happens a few times, 
starts flaming back.  It's not right, but it's human nature in 
action.  I apologize to Mr. Donahue, Mr. Snodgrass, and Mr. Reaser,
(since they've taken the bulk of my flames) and any others I've 
flamed; it *is* uncalled for.   I just hope there is now some
understanding of how it looked from my side, so it isn't perceived 
as hatred of those people.  

One other thing I hope folks will realize; the initial thread I jumped 
in on was the fernandez one; which I moved to alt.p.h at the 
request of people here.   The threads I've been posting on the 
last couple of days were not ones I started here; I followed up 
to what others "in" were already starting.  The appearance is 
that it is OK for people who are "in" to talk politics in motss;
but those who are "out" best keep their traps buttoned.  "Stay 
off my turf" as it was put to me.  

Well, I've said *more* than enough...if people want me out, I'll 
hit the road.  I've been thinking about it anyways, since I'm 
getting the impression the walls are so high between gays and 
straights that any dialog (where openly different views are 
shared) is pretty hopeless; judging by the reaction I've seen 
myself and others get.   The things people have *assumed* 
I think, based on other things I've said, really shocked me. 
And I'm sure I made asinine assumptions about others without 
realizing it, too.  

Well, let's hear what people want; cast your votes.  If the
"get outs" outnumber the "stays", or even if there is just 
a lot of "get outs", I'm outta here.  (sound of applause 
rises from the background)  Please keep the votes posted 
under this subject heading, or under their own single heading, 
so they are easy to find, and so those who just plain don't 
want to be bothered with all this can use their kill file...

Later, 

Walter Smith
smithw@cs.itc.hp.com