HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu (Ted Frank)
Newsgroups: soc.college
Subject: Re: creating a greek newsgroup
Date: 11 Dec 92 16:31:25 GMT
Reply-To: thf2@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations

In article <1gabduINNaf1@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> fau@po.CWRU.Edu (Francis A. Uy) writes:
>So what does everyone say?  I don't have the 
> resources to run a vote, would anyone like to
> get this started?  We could start the vote in
> January + be done by February.

Personally, I'm against it.  I've been trying to engage in reasonable
criticism of the fraternity system, but a split would make that impossible.
If I were to post to soc.college.misc, people would complain that the
discussion is not in soc.college.frat, but the reality of newsgroups is that
any criticism of fraternities would not be well-received or -aimed in a 
s.c.frat newsgroup, because the subscribers to that group would mostly be
members of fraternal organizations, and thus not particularly conducive to
two-sided discussion.  

I would continue to post in s.c.misc, because my posts are aimed at college
students in general.  Thus, if the split is being done to eliminate the
discussion of fraternities in s.c., it will fail, because the only thing 
a split would accomplish would be the generation of additional traffic
complaining "Why isn't this in s.c.frat" and me responding why I have no
interest in talking to people who have no interest in hearing anything
I say, whereas some people in s.c do. 

If the multitude of threads is a problem, I'll try to include the word "frat"
in all subject headers, so that kill-files will be most effective, and I
encourage others to do the same.
-- 
ted frank                     | thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu 
standard disclaimers          | void where prohibited
the university of chicago law school, chicago, illinois 60637
Newsgroups: soc.college
From: bjones@denitqm.uswest.com (Brent Jones)
Subject: Re: Frosh (was Re: Sexist language (was...
Followup-To: soc.college,alt.usage.english
Organization: U S WEST Information Technologies
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 21:42:14 GMT

In article <BzBxxG.BL1@constellation.ecn.uoknor.edu>,
mmmirash@midway.ecn.uoknor.edu (Mandar M. Mirashi) wrote:
> 
>[feeble attempts to respond to Roger deleted]
>
> And thou shalt fail again, and again, and again....  :)
> 
> Try removing the prejudices deeply rooted in the minds of men. 
> The need to modify existing usage for this reason, will disappear on
> its own.
> 
>                                                    Mandar.

Gee, how will we remove these prejudices? Using mime? Probably not too
effective. With big clubs? Nah, violence turns me off. I guess I'll have
to use (gasp) *language*.

Mandar constantly contradicts himself. He states that this usage is not
sexist, and then in the above paragraph states that there is no point in
modifying usage, as the prejudiced attitudes that usage *reflects*
need to change, not usage itself. If usage is a reflection of attitude,
as Mandar states, and the attitude is sexism, then the usage is sexism.
Seems obvious to me.

Mandar also states that the need to modify this usage will go away as 
prejudice disappears. So if some people find "mankind" sexist when used as
a general tag, after deeply rooted sexist prejudices disappear they will 
perceive it as a good, generic, non-sexist term? 

I think not. The fact is that as sexism fades, so will the sexist usage 
that springs from it. And like it or not, that is what is happening
now.

Have you no emphathy? Isn't it strange that only men speak up for "he"
and "mankind," saying that "everyone" knows that it is meant in a
generic sense? Isn't it enough for you that a number of women have told
you clearly and openly in this thread that it *does* offend them to be
lumped under the term "mankind?" Can't you imagine how you would feel if
the situation was reversed? 

Don't be so damn myopic, and think your arguments through more carefully.

--
Brent Jones, Lead Tech. Editor, U S WEST IT, bjones@denitqm.uswest.com
"of beautiful weeds that cannot hide from the farmer and helplessly have 
to watch the shadow of his simian stoop leave mangled flowers in its wake, 
as the monstrous darkness approaches."--V. Nabokov _Signs and Symbols_
Newsgroups: soc.college,alt.usage.english
From: thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu (Ted Frank)
Subject: Re: Sexist language
Reply-To: thf2@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 01:42:05 GMT

In article <1992Dec14.150504.18522@Princeton.EDU> roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig) writes:
>In article <1992Dec14.063653.2455@news.columbia.edu> gmw1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Gabe M Wiener) writes:
>>I don't see hoards of 19-year-olds mobbing the admin buildings
>>demanding to be called "first year students."  It just doesn't happen
>>that way.  The whole "first year" bit has been brought about by people
>>with nothing better to do.
>
>Again, I'd like some documentation of that.  Who are these nameless language
>tyrants?  And what of the many students I know who *did* protest the use
>of "freshman" as long as 15 years ago?  
>
>(And why would you hoard such people, let alone hordes of them? 8-)  )

Hundreds of people at Brandeis U voted in a peaceful referendum to change
the name "freshman" to "first-year."  As far as I could tell, Western
civilization didn't collapse.  (A later referendum to change "first-year"
to "freshchunk" failed by a large margin, but got much more national
publicity....)
-- 
ted frank                     | thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu 
standard disclaimers          | void where prohibited
the university of chicago law school, chicago, illinois 60637
From: alyoung@kiwi.ucs.indiana.edu (Amy Young Leith)
Newsgroups: soc.college
Subject: Re: PC world--the word is...
Date: 20 Dec 92 21:51:00 GMT
Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington

In article <1gqf6oINNfgi@news.gac.edu> censtad@nic.gac.edu writes:
>When you talk about fraternities all you PC people do NOT use the word  
>frat if you are really as PC as you think you are
>
>
>I mean... would you call your mother a moth?
>		would you call your country a cunt?

Are any of these terms commonly accepted in any dialect of the English
language?  No.  

Your attempted analogy doesn't work. 

Most of the fraternity members that I know refer to their home and
organization as a frat.  

amy

-- 
alyoung@kiwi.ucs.indiana.edu for personal mail
			    All business mail to alyoung@silver.ucs.indiana.edu
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
**Dislcaimer:I only speak for myself.  Anyone who thinks differently is a fool.
			(This means NOT my employer!!)
Newsgroups: soc.college,alt.usage.english
From: g9rwaigh@cdf.toronto.edu (Rosemary Waigh)
Subject: Re: Frosh (was Re: Sexist language (was...
Organization: University of Toronto Computing Disciplines Facility
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1992 23:34:57 GMT

In article <BzJv4r.EB7@constellation.ecn.uoknor.edu> mmmirash@banshee.ecn.uoknor.edu (Mandar M. Mirashi) writes:
>In article <1992Dec20.064116.19686@cdf.toronto.edu> g9rwaigh@cdf.toronto.edu (Rosemary Waigh) writes:
>>I'm not really sure what you're trying to say, Mandar.
>>"Persons" does *not* include animals.  To include all species of animals,
>>use the word "animals" (which includes people too).
>                         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Compare that to the usage of the word "men" (which includes women too)   ;)
>Now WHY did you add that, if the meaning of animals is unambiguous?

Because the meaning of animals is not unambiguous; to some people it means
only non-human animals.  This leads to all sorts of tiresome qualifications
when trying to write, say, animal rights literature.

>You cleared up the context, didn't you? That's because some people
>don't consider people to be animals. Similarly, there is NOTHING wrong
>with clearing up the context when using the word "man".

However, in the case of human beings, we are fortunate to have many
unambiguous terms to include people of both genders, making the sexist use
of "man" especially pointless and undesirable.
-- 
Rosemary Waigh             Undergraduate, Computer Science / Linguistics
g9rwaigh@cdf.utoronto.ca   University of Toronto
	"Looking at the Earth from afar you realize it is too small
	for conflict and just big enough for co-operation."  Yuri Gagarin
Newsgroups: soc.college
From: g9rwaigh@cdf.toronto.edu (Rosemary Waigh)
Subject: Re: Sexist language
Organization: University of Toronto Computing Disciplines Facility
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 21:24:40 GMT

In article <Bz9oIw.AEG@news.cso.uiuc.edu> cburian@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Christopher J Burian) writes:
>pezzillo@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Amy J. Pezzillo) writes:
>>The only reason that "he" was ever
>>accepted as denoting everyone was because males USED to be in charge.
>	Yikes!  A bit misandrist, aren't we?  Are you really
>	convinced that gender-specific pronouns are part of
>	a huge conspiracy?
>
They do reflect the traditional dominance of men, as you yourself point out
later on.

>	Unlike you, many people aren't disturbed by the use of
>	traditionally gender-typed nouns and pronouns in neutral
>	situations.  

Speak for yourself.

>       The documentation for PGP, a cryptography
>	program written by a *man* uses she and her in gender-
>	neutral terms throughout.  Surprised me, but it didn't
>	make me all uptight and defensive!  I guess I don't 
>	suffer an inferiority complex.  

Or could it be that as a man you are less frequently diminished by sexist
pronouns?  How would you feel if this were the default usage?

>>I never liked hearing about "forefathers" and "mankind" and
>>"brotherhood" and feeling totally excluded by these terms either.
>	Does "sisterhood" make you spastic, too?  Sorry to bust
>	your bubble, but "forefathers" is appropriate because 
>	there weren't any women politicians in the 18th century. 

Before you criticized Amy for attributing the sexist usage of "he" to the
former dominance of men, now you are telling her that we say "forefathers"
because of the former dominance of men.  I think you are being inconsistent.
-- 
Rosemary Waigh             Undergraduate, Computer Science / Linguistics
g9rwaigh@cdf.utoronto.ca   University of Toronto
	"Looking at the Earth from afar you realize it is too small
	for conflict and just big enough for co-operation."  Yuri Gagarin
From: erich.lim@yob.sccsi.com (Erich Lim) 
Newsgroups: soc.college
Subject: TEXAS SOUTHERN UNIVERSITY
Date: 18 Dec 92 11:52:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Ye Olde Bailey BBS - Houston, TX - 713-520-1569
Reply-To: erich.lim@yob.sccsi.com (Erich Lim) 

klassen@sol.UVic.ca (Melvin Klassen) writes:
-> Texas Southern University's marching band turned a shopping-trip into
-> a shoplifting spree, stealing $26,000 worth of electronics before
-> Japanese police retrieved most of the goods.
-> Officials said Tuesday that the band was visiting Tokyo to play at
-> the half-time show of a Dec. 6 college football game between the U.
-> of Nebraska and Kansas State.
-> The 126 band-members were later taken in buses on a shopping-trip to
-> Akihabara, famed for its electronics shops.

  I seriously think this is a disgrace to America and American
Universities.  The American Universities are the best around and many
people come from foreign lands to get the degrees at Stanford and other
U.S. schools.  Now Japan and other countries are going to think negative
about the U.S. schools.  Yesterday (Thursday), the President of TSU has
disbanded their Marching Band.  I don't know if the students were
expelled or not, but they were thinking about that..  Being a resident
of Houston (Where Texas Southern University is located) also gives my
city a bad name...  The TSU band should have thought more about what
they were doing before they did it, if they actually did, or have been
more sly about it and not have been caught...


 Erich.
                                                                                                                              
----
Ye Olde Bailey BBS
Houston,Texas
Node 1: 1 713 520 1569
yob.sccsi.com
Newsgroups: soc.college,alt.usage.english,alt.flame.spelling
From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: Tenants of English
Originator: news@nimaster
Reply-To: roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig)
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 21:00:11 GMT

In article <1992Dec16.180019.15692@midway.uchicago.edu> thf2@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>In article <1992Dec16.162635.5438@seas.gwu.edu> willson@seas.gwu.edu (Stephen R. Willson) writes:
>>In article <1992Dec16.151519.3485@bmerh85.bnr.ca> nadeau@bnr.ca (Rheal
>>Nadeau) writes:
>>>Or, in Humpty Dumpty fashion, does a word mean just what you want it to
>>>mean, no more and no less?  And anyone who doesn"t instantly realize
>>>what you mean is, of course, prejudiced.

>>Isn't this a basic tenant of English? :-)

>I don't know -- who's the landlord of English?

>Ted "pitch your tenets here, boys, we'll ride at dawn" Frank

"Tenace, anyone?"  -- Charles Goren

Roger
From: thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu (Ted Frank)
Newsgroups: soc.college
Subject: Re: observations (frat)
Date: 14 Dec 92 03:26:48 GMT
Reply-To: thf2@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations

In article <1992Dec14.023741.16916@galileo.cc.rochester.edu> DSCT@db1.cc.rochester.edu (DAVID SCOTT) writes:
>I don't see a differance between first-year and freshman, and think that
>arguing to change it is as good as abolishing fraternities to get
>rid of rape. (from my point of view, not very). 
>					-Gavin Fischer

Who's been arguing that abolishing fraternities will get rid of rape?  I've
only made the claim that reforming fraternities will reduce the rate of
rape on campus.  Must you mischaracterize my arguments so?

For that matter, show me where I argue "freshman" should be changed.
I've only noted that complaining that students are called "first-years"
is far more silly than complaining that students are called "freshmen."
-- 
ted frank                     | thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu 
standard disclaimers          | void where prohibited
the university of chicago law school, chicago, illinois 60637
From: DSCT@db1.cc.rochester.edu (DAVID SCOTT)
Newsgroups: soc.college
Subject: observations
Date: 14 Dec 92 02:37:41 GMT
Organization: University of Rochester, Rochester NY
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.11

It is very hard to argue on the same side as Michael Bucci.

I think there are some problems with the research you sight ted, but I am
going to finish my exams before I finish the reading.

I don't see a differance between first-year and freshman, and think that
arguing to change it is as good as abolishing fraternities to get
rid of rape. (from my point of view, not very). I'll be back to argue soon.
					-Gavin Fischer
					University of Rochester Cancer Center
Newsgroups: soc.college,alt.usage.english
From: g9rwaigh@cdf.toronto.edu (Rosemary Waigh)
Subject: Re: Frosh (was Re: Sexist language (was...
Organization: University of Toronto Computing Disciplines Facility
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1992 06:41:16 GMT

In article <BzJoI3.9vx@constellation.ecn.uoknor.edu> mmmirash@banshee.ecn.uoknor.edu (Mandar M. Mirashi) writes:
>In article <1992Dec18.222419.18184@bmerh85.bnr.ca> nadeau@bnr.ca (Rheal Nadeau) writes:
>>If I say "all persons are created equal", I don't have to explain that
>>"this means women too".
>But you *do* have to explain that "this means animals and other living 
>beings too", don't you? After all, animals too have rights, don't they? 
>The point I am trying to make is : No matter how hard you strive, ambiguity 
>in the English language is unresolvable.

I'm not really sure what you're trying to say, Mandar.
"Persons" does *not* include animals.  To include all species of animals,
use the word "animals" (which includes people too).
-- 
Rosemary Waigh             Undergraduate, Computer Science / Linguistics
g9rwaigh@cdf.utoronto.ca   University of Toronto
	"Looking at the Earth from afar you realize it is too small
	for conflict and just big enough for co-operation."  Yuri Gagarin
Xref: sparky soc.college:5595 alt.usage.english:9555
From: DSCT@db1.cc.rochester.edu (DAVID SCOTT)
Newsgroups: soc.college
Subject: Re: Athletics over Academics at CU, surely not.
Date: 16 Dec 92 22:10:04 GMT
Organization: University of Rochester, Rochester NY
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.11

In <1992Dec16.200335.24959@ncar.ucar.edu> gary@colossus.cgd.ucar.edu writes:> 
>   I know that athletics-bashing is very popular among academic ivory-tower
>   types, who can't stand any possible deviation from the Holy Mission of the
>   Venerable University, but in this case, the bashers are wrong. I'm more than
>   happy to criticize and berate athletics departments when it's justified, but
>   such criticism is not justified in this case.
> 
> --
> Gary Strand                      Opinions stated herein are mine alone and are
> strandwg@ncar.ucar.edu            not representative of NCAR, UCAR, or the NSF

	It may also be that atheletics have gotten completely out of hand.
I spent four years on the swim team, and most of college sports are out
of line. I also happen to be one of thos ivory tower academics, and the 
team should never have bumped an exam, regardless of who screwed up. You
are going to penalize 500 students taking an exam because a departmental
secratary somewhere screwed up? That is fundamentally flawed. There have to
be other ways to penalize a department, than getting at all of the students.
I was horrible at languages, and would have been totally happy if someone had
booted us out of any of my exams in Spanish, but it should NEVER happen.
				-Gavin Fischer
				University of Rochester Cancer Center
Newsgroups: soc.college,alt.usage.english,alt.flame.spelling
From: thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu (Ted Frank)
Subject: Re: Tenants of English
Reply-To: thf2@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 03:17:20 GMT

In article <1992Dec16.210011.17438@Princeton.EDU> roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig) writes:
>In article <1992Dec16.180019.15692@midway.uchicago.edu> thf2@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>>In article <1992Dec16.162635.5438@seas.gwu.edu> willson@seas.gwu.edu (Stephen R. Willson) writes:
>>>Isn't this a basic tenant of English? :-)
>
>>I don't know -- who's the landlord of English?
>
>>Ted "pitch your tenets here, boys, we'll ride at dawn" Frank
>
>"Tenace, anyone?"  -- Charles Goren

I'd love to, but I only have genes to wear.

Ted "obscure 1972 Oakland A's references backwards-R us" Frank
-- 
ted frank                     | thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu 
standard disclaimers          | void where prohibited
the university of chicago law school, chicago, illinois 60637
From: mmmirash@midway.ecn.uoknor.edu (Mandar M. Mirashi)
Newsgroups: soc.college
Subject: Re: Sexist language (LONG)
Date: 16 Dec 92 00:56:08 GMT
Article-I.D.: constell.BzBuLo.AAn
Organization: Engineering Computer Network, University of Oklahoma, Norman, OK, USA

In article <102204@netnews.upenn.edu> crawford@ben.dev.upenn.edu (Lauren L. Crawford) writes:
>Seems like a good time to re-post this.
>
>
>                     A Person Paper on Purity in Language 
> 
>               by William Satire (alias Douglas R. Hofstadter) 
> 
>                               September, 1983 
> 

     [ A really marvellous article deleted ]

>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Lauren Crawford  //  crawford@ben.dev.upenn.edu

That was one of the best articles I have seen on a.u.e, Lauren! Thank you!
Do you have the address/e-mail address of Douglas Hofstadter? I would
like to compliment him on such a marvellous piece of work.

                                                         Mandar.         
-- 
"Imagine there are no countries. It isn't hard to do. Nothing to kill or die 
 for, and no religion too. Imagine all the people living life in peace.
 You may say that I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one. I hope that some
 day you'll join us, and the world will be as one." - John Lennon.
Newsgroups: soc.college,alt.usage.english
From: streater@unixhub.SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Tim Streater)
Subject: Re: Sexist language
Organization: Stanford Linear Accelerator Center
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 07:55:26 GMT

In article <1ggp8rINNivb@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> garvey@skybridge.SCL.CWRU.Edu (Heather Garvey) writes:
>
>	Yes, it does. Freshman is a much kinder term. :) The status of
>'freshman' is dependent upon the number of credits you accumulate. It
>is a measure of your academic level. 'First-year' (and thus second/third/
>fourth/fifth/etc.) says nothing but how long you've been there. Sometimes

In the UK the term "freshman" applies only to those students who are newly
arrived at the institution. Once you have been there a few months (don't know
how many but to me it felt like perhaps 3), you turn into a first-year student.

Also, you were much more likely to be booted out than to repeat, so n-th year
would be quite likely to have been there n-1 years. I believe this is much more
relaxed now than in my day, and a good thing too. One of my nieces for example
(a mechanical engineer) repeated her second year.

tim.

Newsgroups: soc.college,alt.usage.english
From: J.Theodore.Schuerzinger@dartmouth.edu (J. Theodore Schuerzinger)
Newsgroups: soc.college
Subject: Re: Sexist language
Date: 16 Dec 92 19:02:14 GMT
 <101955@netnews.upenn.edu> <BzAE0r.4w8@constellation.ecn.uoknor.edu>  
 <1992Dec15.160325.825@midway.uchicago.edu>
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH
X-Posted-From: InterNews1.0b1@newshost.dartmouth.edu

In article <1992Dec15.160325.825@midway.uchicago.edu>
thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu (Ted Frank) writes:

> >An exercise in futility. "Woman" encapsulates "man", as does "humankind"
> >"mankind". As Tim S. pointed out, if "his" were "its", "this" would be 
                 ^^^
> >"tits"!  :) 
Actually that's Ted S. -- I was the one who originally posted it.
> 
> Boy, it really furthered the debate when he said it.  Nowhere near
> as much as when you repeated it.


--Ted Schuerzinger
email: .zed@Dartmouth.EDU
"I should have known it would be bad vodka when all the label said was
'Russian Vodka'."
Newsgroups: soc.college,alt.usage.english
From: baron@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Dennis Baron)
Subject: Re: PC world--the word is frat
Organization: University of Illinois
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 15:17:15 GMT

Most people of college age are able to tell when a longer
>word might be abbreviated acceptably in order to convey proper meaning
>without confusion.  Your mileage may vary depending on which college you
>attend.
>-- 
>ted frank                     | thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu 
>standard disclaimers          | void where prohibited
>the university of chicago law school, chicago, illinois 60637

People of college age call their parents  * 'rents *


Dennis


debaron@uiuc.edu               (\                   217-333-2392
                               \'\             fax: 217-333-4321
Dennis Baron                    \'\           __________
Department of English           / '|         ()_________)
Univ. of Illinois               \ '/          \ ~~~~~~~~ \
608 S. Wright St.                 \             \ ~~~~~~   \
Urbana IL 61801                   ==).            \__________\
                                 (__)             ()__________)
Newsgroups: soc.college