HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: whheydt@pbhya.pacbell.com (Wilson Heydt)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Question for fundamentalists
Date: 16 Sep 92 04:11:48 GMT
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA

In article <Sep.15.04.20.27.1992.25815@athos.rutgers.edu>, lbarrass@phillip.edu.au writes:
> In article <Sep.12.23.57.38.1992.13105@athos.rutgers.edu>, boe@cadsun2.slac.stanford.edu (Robert Boeninger) writes:
> >As a serious sceptic, I have a fundamental question for so-called Christian 
> >fundamentalists.
> > 
> >Concerning the claimed inerrancy of the Bible, how is it possible to 
> >accept as true, facts about the nature of the Bible, such as its inerrancy,
> >its being inspired by God, and so on, based on the Bible making such claims
> >for itself?  That would appear to be a a case of circular reasoning.  
> 
> prophecies it seems relevant to look at the prohecies concerning Him. There are
> some He could have manipulated eg. Riding the Donkey into Jerusalem, but there
> are others He couldn't have eg. His place of birth (Micah 5:2). [sorry but I
> had to quote!!] which was from about 750 B.C. I can't remember the figures but
> there are at least a couple hundred OT prophecies Jesus fulfilled.

For the example cited, consider the tortured writing it takes to have
Jesus born in Bethlehem.  Clearly, if one is to justify Jesus as the
heir to the throne, it is required of him (from OT statements) to be
born of the royal line--so we get two *different* accounts of the line
of descent for Joseph (who, under Christian usage *isn't* his
father!)--and in the specified town.  To arrange for him to be born in
Bethlehem, an ahistorical census is invoked in a way that historical
censuses were never conducted.  You don't move the populace
around--you send the census takers to where people are.  All this to
convince people that this is, indeed, the right person.

	--Hal

-- 
Hal Heydt                    |    "Boycott Time-Warner"
Analyst, Pacific*Bell        |         --J. Danforth Quayle
510-823-5447                 |    "... kill all the lawyers."
whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM    |         --William Shakespeare
From: kish@titania.rutgers.edu (Kish)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: "Absolutes" and God's glory (a reply to REXLEX)
Date: 5 Sep 92 21:15:37 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

REXLEX:
+ We were created with an affinity for the absolute. . . .

kish:
| Maybe its possible, perhaps even necessary, to stop manufacturing 
| conceptual reference points and then holding them up as substitutes 
| for God.

REXLEX:
+ When absolutes of right and wrong are eliminated, even in the public
+ life, each person "does what is right in his own eyes."

	When I talk about dropping conceptual reference points, I'm
not talking about amorality.  Without discounting the issue of
morality, my current point of contention with you is more centered
around the relationship between believer and belief system.  Perhaps
you don't see yourself as subscribing to a "belief system", but I am
reasonably convinced that you are.  As such, your absolutes are
conceptualizations that result from attempting to represent an
n-dimensional book, the Bible, with 2-valued logic.
	Having said that, let me restate my main point: the glory of
God is outside of any conceptual framework.  The Bible even says as
much:

1st Cor 4:20  For the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power.

Rom 11:33  O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge 
 of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding 
 out!

Whether or not your concepts (including absolutes) are based on
scripture is irrelevant.  If you wind up relating with your model
instead of relating directly with the love of Christ, then you are
engaging in a subtler form of idolatry.  It doesn't matter whether you
are talking about fundamental-ISM, or secular humanism, or X-theology,
or any other ism/ology.  Any notion of absolute you care to espouse is
not going to be enough.

       Let me shift gears slightly and talk about Plato, since you
seem to have a certain fondness for him (as do I). Surely you must
have noticed that Socrates never really finds an answer to questions
like "what is good" or "what is beauty" or "what is piety".  In fact,
he seems to take a certain joy in getting others to admit that what
they thought was obvious is actually not so well known.  If somehow
you were able to discuss with Socrates the question "what is an
absolute ?", what are the chances that together you and he would
arrive at a definite answer ?

en agape,
-Bill
-- 

PHONE: (908) 932-5026
UUCP : {ames,att,harvard}!uunet!rutgers!jove.rutgers.edu!kish
INTERNET: kish@jove.rutgers.edu
From: c164-dy@po.berkeley.edu (David Loo)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Old Books
Date: 11 Sep 92 04:08:44 GMT
Organization: University of California, at Berkeley

A friend and I are currently doing a nation-wide sweep for
some old out-of-print books particularly any by the following
authors:

	Vance Havner
	H. C. G. Moule
	Stephen F. Olford
	J. Oswald Sanders
	Graham W. Scroggie


If you know of any Used / Rare Christian Book Stores, or happen
to have books by these authors that you want to sell, could you
please send me e-mail?


	Many Thanx,

	Smiley
	c164-dy@po.berkeley.edu
From: billg@bony1.bony.com (Bill Gripp)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Hal Camping prediction for Second Coming, Sept. '94!!
Date: 11 Sep 92 04:12:53 GMT
Organization: LA&W RR

In article <Sep.9.04.40.22.1992.22194@athos.rutgers.edu> cee1@ra.msstate.edu (Charles Evans) writes:
>laura@catfish.ocpt.ccur.com (Laura Gillespie) writes:

>4000--3000--2000--1000-0-1000-2000-3000 
>  1    2     3     4   5  6    7
>(days of Creation)

Minor nit pick, but there is no year ZERO!!!  =B^]



>And the millenium is referred to as the Rest, the Lord's rest, etc.. and
>what day of Creation did God rest.. the seventh day. and what day did God
>make man the 6th.. referring possibly to post-Christ and the church etc.

>and 2000-7=1993 and by what i can tell from Song of Solomon, unfulfilled
>feasts etc teh Rapture would be pointed as May or September (1993) for
>in Song of SOlomon when talking about the Rapture it says winter is over..
>the grass is greeen etc.. come away my love!!


I've often wondered if God really counts the same way we do?  I mean, if
the "Thursday" and "Friday" of God's week of millenia starts with
Jesus's birth, 3 BC + 2000 - 7 = 1990 (we passed that one didn't we?).
If it is measured from Jesus's death and ressurection, 30 AD + 2000 - 7 =
2023.

Everybody gets all worked up about the magic year 2000.  Well 2000 AD
doesn't really have any significance since it isn't 2000 years from
anything of note, it happens to be 2000 due to an error in dating
Jesus's birth.  

While I too an looking forward to the Lord's return, I think we need to
adopt the attitute expressed by some of our Orthodox Jewish "brethern"
who when asked, when is Moshiach (Messiah) coming answer today.  We need
to live our lives as if Jesus is returning today, not Sept 1994, not
2000AD, not tomorrow, but TODAY.

[There's no year zero, but on a time line like this there is a time
zero, the instant at which we go from BC to AD.  --clh]
From: rreid@ecst.csuchico.edu (Ralph Reid III)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: thought for the day (9-8)
Date: 9 Sep 92 08:48:41 GMT
Organization: California State University, Chico

Tuesday, September 8:

     Get away from me, you evildoers, that I may observe the 
commandments of my God.  <Psalm 119: 115>

-- 
Ralph.  N6BNO.
Phone 1-916-345-9155.
lectromail- rreid@cscihp.ecst.csuchico.edu.
I do not waste time expressing others' opinions!
From: clifton9220@iscsvax.uni.edu
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: PRAYERLINE!!!
Date: 16 Sep 92 04:13:07 GMT
Organization: University of Northern Iowa

Hello out there.

For those of you who don't know, I run a prayerline with the simple intention
of helping you.  I am just here to help stand in the gap and lend another voice
of your needs to God.  I am a bit surprised that I have received little
response from this on this newsgroup.  We all need prayer.  If you think you do
not, you are wrong.  However, if you only want to pray on your own, I commend
you.  My only intention from this ad is to help people pray of their needs.  If
you are doing that, my mission is solved.  

I am always here for you,

Ken.
From: laura@catfish.ocpt.ccur.com (Laura Gillespie)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Hal Camping prediction for Second Coming, Sept. '94!!
Date: 5 Sep 92 20:59:16 GMT
Organization: Concurrent Computer - Oceanport NJ

I don't know if all of you are aware of it yet, but a big event just
happened last night on the radio.  One of the most respected, humble,
and trusted servants of God, Mr. Harold Camping of Family Radio,
headquartered out of Oakland, Calif., actually gave a prediction for
the end of the world, that is, for the Second Coming, for September
1994.  Now, this is a REALLY SERIOUS matter, since Mr. Camping is
just about the most conservative Bible commentator on the air.
When somebody like him, with his knowledge of the Bible and background
of always taking the sure, low-profile approach to spreading the gospel
to the world, decides to walk out on a limb (and off of it!) and say
that there is sufficient evidence within the Bible to be able to say,
at this point in history when corroborating events have already
occurred (such as the nation of Israel being refounded, etc.), that we
can know a fairly close date for the Second Coming (without knowing the
specific "day or the hour", which is all the Bible says that no man
can know), well, *that* means something.  Something BIG!  I, for
one, was taken aback by it, and I am doing some real soul-searching,
and intend to get involved in a church (I've tried dozens and not
felt really comfortable with the people) and do lot more Bible study,
from now on.  I've been listening to Family Radio, and particularly
Mr. Camping's "Open Forum" show (7:00pm - 8:30pm on the West Coast,
syndicated just about everywhere in simulcast), for about 15 years,
and I can see myself what a huge departure this is for him.  He
would only do this if he were absolutely *sure* of it, which is
what he said last night.  He's publishing a book, called "1994"
(Vantage Press), in order to get the word out as much as possible.

This is liable to create a lot of controversy, and a lot of derision
for Mr. Camping and Family Radio (and by association, all Christian
religious broadcasters.  It will also quite possibly be the powder
keg which ignites one whale of a revival movement in not only this
country, but all over the world (this is a worldwide radio show).
As a matter of fact, I expect that the more "undeveloped" nations
will have the biggest positive reactions to it.

Frankly, I think we should talk about this.
This is going to be BIG news in a few weeks, when the book comes out
and the movement gathers steam enough to get the big-time news
media's attention.

To be honest, I believe Mr. Camping, because of who he is and how
he has behaved in the past, and because I, too, see the signs in
the world that the end is near -- the world is definitely going
to end sometime.

-- 
US MAIL: Laura Gillespie  Mailstop 360    Concurrent Computer Corporation
FAX: 908-870-5952  2 Crescent Pl. Oceanport NJ 07757  Voice: 908-870-5782 
UUCP: rutgers!ocpt.ccur.com!gillespi     Internet: gillespi@ocpt.ccur.com
From: holland@dutiws.twi.tudelft.nl (Gerhard den Hollander)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Sermons wanted (preferably dutch ones)
Date: 10 Sep 92 05:43:28 GMT
Organization: Delft University of Technology

I have the following problem,

The church I visit, has only one minister (hope this is the right term),
and so every other sunday, we have a guest minister.
However it may happen that this guest-minister (who is everytime someone else,
and who can come from far away) is delayed,
or cannot come at all. If that's the case we need a sermon to be read by the elder. The problem now i, we don't have any  spare-sermons.

I had heard that (at least in the USofA but probably also in Holland)
there were
Data-bases with sermons or something like that.

Is there anyone on the net who is able to help me with this problem.
In the kost ideal case, this would be a dutch speaking person,
who can send me one or two general purpose sermons.

Thanks a lot,
and God bless.
From: cmgrawbu@eos.ncsu.edu (CHRISTOPHER M GRAWBURG)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Question for fundamentalists
Date: 15 Sep 92 07:15:44 GMT
Reply-To: cmgrawbu@eos.ncsu.edu (CHRISTOPHER M GRAWBURG)
Organization: North Carolina State University, Project Eos

>>Concerning the claimed inerrancy of the Bible, how is it possible to 
>>accept as true, facts about the nature of the Bible, such as its inerrancy,
>>its being inspired by God, and so on, based on the Bible making such claims
>>for itself?  That would appear to be a a case of circular reasoning.  Any 
>>supposed corroboration of such claims by independent evidence all appears to 
>>me to be cases of wishful thinking, arguing after the fact.  You like to think 
>>of the Bible as being God-inspired, and therefore you go to great pains to 
>>bring up supporting evidence from within the Bible itself.  From a purely 
>>logical standpoint, it seems to me that no amount of claims in the Bible about 
>>the Bible itself can ever be taken as a validation of those claims. 
>>Predictions
>>of supposed miracles are again always referred to after the fact, when it's 
>>easy to interpret the original statements however best suits the events that 
>>Do any of you have a sensible response to these issues, one that does NOT
>>consist of simply quoting the Bible some more?

Excellents question. What has to be done is compare the scripture to
something outside of the Scripture. Compare what is said in the Bible to
something no one can argue against--- for example history.

Without going all into it--I would use the Messianic Prophesies in the OT
as compared to the life of Jesus outside of the Bible. The writings of
Tertullian, Justin Martyr, Pliny and Trajan, and some other authors
who lived during that time are good sourses for seeing if what the Bible
said would happen will happen. 

One quick point---even us fundamentalists cannot prove God 100%----nor can
the atheist DISprove God 100%---- there is always the element of faith.


I know this really isn't much---I don't have time to write a lot!

Chris

[You might want to look more closely at those outside sources.  There
is almost nothing about Jesus outside the Bible.  There's probably
enough to be fairly sure he lived and was killed, but that's about
all.  I've got an FAQ that lists all of the passages, if you don't
happen to have a list handy.  --clh]
From: west@esd.dl.nec.com	 (Mike West)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Disagreeing with one's church (was Re: Clinton & Gore)
Date: 9 Sep 92 08:46:17 GMT

glenn@moeng2.morgan.edu (D. Glenn Arthur Jr.):
> [...]
> 
> Similarly, one of my ex-girlfriends is Catholic.  She's also 
> bisexual (and usually just refers to herself as lesbian).  The
> Catholic church isn't too keen on homosexuals.  That does not
> make her non-Catholic.  It does make her someone who's trying to
> change the church.
> 
> [...]

Why?  Why is she trying to change the church?  I have absolutely
never understood this.  If she wants to disagree, fine;  that is
her right.  But is it really her right to try to change the church?
If so why?

I would seem to me that if you disagree with a tenant of your
church, but can live with being identified with it (like say
you don't think there is anything wrong with drinking or dancing
or whatever, but your church does), then it is good for you
to stay with that church.  But if you have a profound disagreement
with your church (like homosexuality or pre-marital sex) where
you feel you cannot live with being identified with it, you should
leave.

Do you not do more harm and damage to both your church and yourself
by fighting with them?  By refusing to leave are you not actually
imposing on their right to believe and worship as they choose?
By willfully fighting do you not just polarize their position so
that they can *never* change?  What is there that can possibly
be gained?

Again, I am not talking about minor points, or small issues of
interpretations, but major elements of lifestyle and fundamental
beliefs.  If after examining your positions, you determine that
you truly believe that you are right and your church is wrong
why would anyone even consider fighting to change the church
instead of moving to a new one?

Mike West
west@esd.dl.nec.com
From: thomasp@paramount.nikhefk.nikhef.nl (Thomas Payerle)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Giving of your Heart
Date: 5 Sep 92 21:31:33 GMT
Organization: NIKHEFK

In article <Aug.30.01.36.25.1992.11811@athos.rutgers.edu> ccla@marlin.jcu.edu.au (Lee Askew) writes:
>As a not-yet-a-christian, but feeling the power/conviction of Jesus, I
>find it VERY VERY VERY hard to go that last step and 'GIVE' my heart to
>the Lord.
>
>Infact I am finding it probably the hardest thing that I have ever done.

I don't think it is neccessarily wrong for one to find it difficult to
"give one's heart to the Lord."  Although the benefits of such a closeness
with God are immense beyond comprehension, what is being asked of us is
quite severe, to "die to one's self."  It requires us to surrender absolutely
everything, all our dreams and desires (even those which seem quite good
and even holy to us) and to joyfully desire whatever God wills.  God promises
to give us many-fold what we sacrifice for him, and often He will do so 
quickly.  But sometimes, if He so desires, this reward might not come within
our lifetime.  I still lack th faith to sincerely utter this prayer of
St. Ignatius:
"Take O Lord and receive all m liberty, my memory, my understanding, my
entire will, all that I own and possess.  Thou has given all to me, and to
Thee, O Lord, I return it.  All is Thine, dispose of it according to Thy
will.  Give me Thy love and Thy grace, for this is enough for me."
Perhaps others have the faith necessary to say this prayer, but I would think
that the number is small.  I know I personally am afraid of this prayer.
It is telling God that I will for him to do whatever He wants with me, even
to the point of afflicting me with Alzheimer's disease (just for one small
example) if He so willed.  Some might claim that God's will for me could
not be anything but the best, but I am a mere mortal capable of looking only
ten or twenty years ahead at most, whereas God's vision extends across an
eternity which is incomprehensible to me, and in many ways rather intangible.
Recall that this is the same God who allowed Job to be tested.

However, I don't think that God expects such faith before one becomes a
Christian.  It probably takes most of a lifetime to achieve, if not longer.
And I doubt it is possible for a human to achieve such faith on his own.
I think, Lee, what is necessary is for one to make achieving this faith
a personal goal, and God will be pleased with such a commitment.  And prayer
is also important-- pray to God for the faith to give oneself completely
to God, or ifyou are not even ready for that, pray for the desire to have
that sort of faith.  After all, such faith can come only from God.

				God bless,
				Tom Payerle
From: mpaul@unlinfo.unl.edu (marxhausen paul)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Southern Baptists Ensuring Orthodoxy
Date: 9 Sep 92 08:08:30 GMT
Organization: University of Nebraska - Lincoln

Sigh.  Same song, different verse. This review of the SBC controversy is
sadly reminiscent of the struggle in the Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod
a couple decades back, with seminary leader John Tietjen forming a 
"Seminary in Exile" and other wonderful events.  It was almost refreshing
that the _current_ bare-knuckles struggle in our Synod didn't hide behind
theology and creeds but went right at it with flat-out personal accusations
and lawsuits...

--
===============================================================================
paul marxhausen                              \/               grace 
university of nebraska - lincoln             /\              happens           
===============================================================================
From: keiner@earthview.cms.udel.edu (Louis Keiner)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Clinton, Gore, and the SBC
Date: 11 Sep 92 04:27:09 GMT

In article 24084@athos.rutgers.edu, sjreeves@eng.auburn.edu (Stan Reeves) writes:

[lines deleted]

>atmosphere of paranoia is understandable given the increasingly liberal
>tendencies of the so-called "traditional professors."  A denomination has
>the right to have people in their schools that teach what the denomination
>as a whole believes.  That is not "coercive bigotry".  That's just an 
>attempt to be faithful to what one believes.  When professors started 
>denying the deity of Christ and the complete authority of Scripture, not
>only were they violating their integrity by teaching contrary to the
>statement of faith they had signed, but they were also violating the trust 
>of those who payed their salary.  By and large, the removal of these men 
>was justified.

What you and others keep forgetting is that the SBC is made up of a wide range
of Christians, a spectrum from very conservative to liberal. There is no such
thing as 'what the denomination as a whole believes.' If the seminaries were
to be truly representative of the beliefs of the denomination they would have
professors with a wide range of beliefs, not just from one side of the
theological spectrum. I would like that, in that it would give our seminary
students a wider range of experiences from which to draw on for their life in
ministry. Remember that before most of the moderates bolted, the current
leadership of the denomination was pulling in less than 55% of the vote at
conventions; hardly a majority justifying remaking the seminaries in their 
image.

How many of those professors denied the deity of Christ? Very, very few. How
many of them denied the authority of scripture? Probably none, but their
understanding of that authority was different from that of of the people who
now appoint the trustees. I find it amazing that these professors who have
spent their lives studying and researching in order to teach our seminarians
aren't listened to more. They, as much as any conservative teacher, pray to
God for the understanding to serve God faithfully and well. It would be
'violating their integrity' for them to teach otherwise than God has given
them understanding. The current leadership of the SBC is violating MY trust by
disregarding me and the large segment of the people in SBC churches who feel 
like I do. The removal of these professors was a disservice to all Baptists.

Peace, (even when you don't feel like it....)

Louis

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Louis E. Keiner - College of Marine Studies        "Let be damned for eternity
University of Delaware, Newark, DE 19716            only those who would make
keiner@earthview.cms.udel.edu                       themselves gods." Voltaire
------------------------------------------------------------------------------