HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: phydeaux@guru.med.cornell.edu (Dave Weingart)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Covenant/LotR parallels? (Was Re: Amber: )
Date: 12 Jan 1993 17:52:51 GMT
Organization: CUMC
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: guru.med.cornell.edu

In article <1993Jan11.090716.1677@lmpsbbs.comm.mot.com>,  (David Ingham) writes:
|> and self despite.  Character motivation is the reason for the story.  The
|> fantasy setting is just were Donaldson decided to place his story.  Could
|> Covenant work in say a SF setting? 

Having slogged through the Interminable Chronicles of Thomas Covenent the Overly
Ose, I'm not sure it worked in a fantasy setting, either (although it saved me
quite a bit of money because I fully intend to never spend another cent on
a Donaldson book -- and certainly not the Gap in Sequels).

-- 
73 de David Weingart  KB2CWF    In the event I am captured or killed, the
phydeaux@cumc.cornell.edu       Cornell University Medical College and the
phydeaux@guru.med.cornell.edu   Department of Academic Computing will disavow
phydeaux@src4src.linet.org      any knowledge of my opinions.
From: user@computer.uio.no (PC Jorgensen)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: The Illuminatus trilogy
Date: 10 Jan 93 19:25:52 GMT
Followup-To: rec.arts.sf.written
Organization: UiO

In article <l6_3=2_@rpi.edu>, kasprj@operators.its.rpi.edu (Jim Kasprzak)
wrote:

> |> I found the "final showdown" in FP much less exciting than the one in TIT.
> 
>  DARN that Umberto Eco! Why can't he write EXCITING stuff, like Steven King?

I appreciate that one sometimes wants to use irony, sarcasm etc. on the net
when one encounters seemingly stupid - but I'd like to add that you (of
course) do not know my literary taste in general and b) I ment
_intellectually_ exciting, not exciting in the swashbuckling sense.  
> |> We had been promised so much,
>  
>  Are you sure these weren't just your expectations, rather than the author's
> promises?

Touche. And it could be that the whole finale indeed was intended as an
anticlimax.

  
>  I'll try to say this without sounding like too much of a literary snob.
>  
>  _Focault's Pendulum_ was not, in and of itself, a novel about conspiracy
> theories. Certainly the conspiracies played a central part in the presentation
> of the ideas which the book was trying to bring across, but if you read it as
> a straight conspiracy novel, you're bound to be disappointed, because that's
> not what Eco was writing.

Touche again. I myself - during the process of reading - sometimes found
the bits about comtemporary and '60-ies Italy and the work of the friends
in that "Vanity" publishing company _more_ interesting and well-written
than the chapters
on occultism etc., in which the knowledge sometimes seemed ill-digested.
And
perhaps there is a difference between RAW and UE here; RAW _lives_ this
stuff,
UE _studies_ it...

 
> |> Concerning the conspiracy itself, the one in TIT is also much wider in
> |> scope and crazier than the one in FP.
> 
>  Personally, I thought the conspiracy in FP was about as crazy as they come.
> 
> |> And IMHO, these books are really not that similar as to be held up against 
> |> each other for measurement - Eco's set of values etc. is different from the
> |> one RS and RAW profess.
>  
>  Bingo.

Well, I think that our opinions - after all - are not so far apoart.

PC
From: David.Dyer-bennet@f32.n619.z1.tdkt.kksys.com (David Dyer-bennet)
Sender: FredGate@tdkt.kksys.com
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: John Woods Campbell
Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1993 11:49:52 -0600

 DS> [When I complained no one offers specifics:]

 >>I think the reason is that you've taken a stance that is so
 >>at odds with all the major critics and historians of the field

 DS>  NO.  I took no such stance.

Um, this turns out not to be the case.  You've expressed a number of
opinions about the effects of JW Campbell on the SF field which are,
in fact, at odds with all the major critics and historians of the
field.  

Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: mvp@netcom.com (Mike Van Pelt)
Subject: Re: Who killed SF???
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 01:44:54 GMT

In article <1993Jan7.191415.9908@news.uiowa.edu> williams@herky.cs.uiowa.edu (Kent Williams) writes:
>It is sad.  I can actually remember being able to WAIT IN ANTICIPATION FOR THE
>NEXT Philip K Dick to come out.  Can any claim now to be waiting for anything
>that momentous?

_The Gripping Hand_.  Though net.opinion seems to be that it's a
disappointment, I'm reserving judgement until I've read it.

Brin's next "Uplift" book.

Cards's (Please, finish it off this time!) end of the Ender series.

Cherryh's next SF book.  (I haven't read any of her fantasy.)

-- 
Mike Van Pelt          | What happens if a big asteroid hits Earth?
mvp@netcom.com         | Judging from realistic simulations involving a
                       | sledge hammer and a common laboratory frog, we
                       | can assume it will be pretty bad. -- Dave Barry
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: jlevine@apollo.HP.COM (Jennifer E. Levine)
Subject: Re: Piers Anthony: Victim of his own success?
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 18:21:40 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Chelmsford, MA

In article <1ig869INN33a@transfer.stratus.com>, tarl@sw.stratus.com (Tarl Neustaedter) writes:

|> Yes. Basically Anthony is a competent s-f/fantasy writer, and if you read
|> every 12th book he writes (and aren't expecting literature), you're likely
|> to be reasonably happy. The real problem with him is that he recycles his
|> stuff ad nauseum. Even Greenpeace doesn't advocate that much recycling :-)

I don't think all of his stuff is useless fluff. I liked the Incarnations 
series. (Well maybe just 1,3,6,7...)

Besides his stuff often silly, and fun...

--Jennifer
jlevine@apollo.hp.com
From: chuq@Apple.COM (Crow's Friend Timmy)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Editor that hated Chalker ?
Date: 7 Jan 93 05:09:31 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Next Thursday A.D.

robertm@alumni.cs.colorado.edu (MONTGOMERY ROBERT PH) writes:

>Questions:
>1) Who was that editor?

Out West, Dead and started in fanzines points heavily to Terry Carr.
Who was many things but not an asshole.

>2) What was the editor's "one good story"?

I dunno. Depends on hich of the stories we think are good ones that Jack
liked.

>(I'm not really interested in how much other people dislike Chalker's
>work; I've not read any of his stories/books yet, and have heard that
>some people love them and others hate them.)

I think you have to remember this is Jack chalker speaking. Fascinating man,
fun to talk to, holds strong opinions. Take it with a grain of salt, but
from reading a lot of Terry's work (and looking at his track record on Ace
Specials) and having talked ot Chalker and read some of his work, I think
its safe to say they'd have very different opinions of the word 'good'.

Chalker, for all his commercial success, has a strong desire for recognition
by his peers, and while most folks who know him like him, it's as a person,
not a writer. Terry, on the other hand, while not a big commercial success
as a writer, was highly regarded by other writers for his talents, so it
wouldn't surprise me if there was an axe grinding here.

(IMHO, if Jack wrote more stuff like DANCE BAND ON THE TITANTIC and less
stuff like his fluffy novels, he'd be a lot poorer but would probably win a
Nebula or two. We all makes our choices, no? While I like him, I don't
generally read him -- but the exceptions are one of the reasons I've fallen
in love with ferries....)

-- 
            Chuq "IMHO" Von Rospach, ESD Support & Training (DAL/AUX)
                      Member, SFWA =+= Editor, OtherRealms
                chuq@apple.com | GEnie: MAC.BIGOT | ALink:CHUQ 

          I'm history! No! I'm mythology! Whatever, I'm outta here!
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: jjfink@skcla.monsanto.com
Subject: Re: Barker, C.
Organization: Searle, Skokie, IL
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 16:07:13 GMT

In article <01GTA5JMYEPY94ES8U@SSCVAX.CIS.MCMASTER.CA>, 8912669@SSCVAX.CIS.MCMASTER.CA ("MICHAEL LONERGAN, MCMASTER, 525-0722") writes:
> I don't know if any of you people consider him an author worthy of review
> in these forums of yours, but I'd be curious what commentary I could garner
> on his works.  Too many of my friends recommend I drop everything to READ
> all of his published works, for me to ignore the clarion call.

Barker began his fame with horror, but it always (well often at least) had a
higher intellectual content than the typical horror novel.  He always goes
further out on a limb to make things more extreme/more touchable than most
writers (IMHO).

His last few have not been horror.
Weaveworld is an excellent fantasy about the magical peoples of the earth
preserving themselves in a tapestry.

Great and Secret Show, Imajica, and the lastest one, whose name I've forgotten,
are also in more of a fantasy vein.

Joel
-- 
jjfink@skcla.monsanto.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I want peace on earth, and goodwill towards man."
"We don't do that kind of thing, we're the United States Government!"
  -- from _Sneakers_
From: chuahl@ocf.berkeley.edu (Chua HakLien)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Piers Anthony: Victim of his own success?
Date: 7 Jan 1993 02:41:31 GMT
Organization: U.C. Berkeley Open Computing Facility
NNTP-Posting-Host: sandstorm.berkeley.edu

Has anyone read any of Pier's Anthony novels which aren't part of a
series, like _Firefly_
or _Ghost_? I know most people here retch at the mere mention of his name,
but wonder if anyone has actually read his non Xanth/Incarnations/etc books.
A friend of mine tried _Firefly_ and said it was pretty ok, but said serious
readers are gonna ignore him because of the usual dreck he comes up with,
while dreck readers aren't gonna buy this alternative stuff, 'cause they
like their Anthony to stick to his usual stuff. ( Xanth and Incarnations,
etc. ) 

Comments?
Chua
+==+
From: xgg2356@DCMDC.DLA.MIL (James Fuerstenberg)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V18 #15
Date: 7 Jan 93 13:32:45 GMT

not to continue this thread any longer than necessary, but hermaphroditic
aliens are by definition neither male nor female..




jim fuerstenberg		


			186,000 miles per second, it's not just a good idea
			it's the law!
						
						
jfuerstenberg@dcmdc.dla.mil or
xgg2356@dcmdc.dla.mil

The opinions stated herein are solely my own and not those of my employer
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: pnh@panix.com (Patrick Nielsen-Hayden)
Subject: Re: Probably false rumor
Organization: fwa
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 21:04:01 GMT

MNHCC@CUNYVM.BITNET (Marty Helgesen) writes:

>Someone I know slightly at work told me that someone had told him
>that Chip Delaney had died a while ago.  I doubt it very much.  I
>don't read LOCUS, but Delaney is big enough that I would expect to
>have seen some mention of it if it were true.  Can someone confirm
>from positive knowledge, rather than just the improbability of the
>report as I heard it, that he is still alive?


Not only is Chip still alive, he still spells his last name "Delany."
Against all odds.

<g>

-----
Patrick Nielsen Hayden * pnh@panix.com * CIS: 72701,1344 * GEnie: PNH
From: seawasp@vm2.cis.pitt.edu (Sea Wasp)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Covenant/LotR parallels? (Was Re: Amber: )
Date: 12 Jan 93 00:59:41 GMT
Organization: University of Pittsburgh
Originator: seawasp@unixd3.cis.pitt.edu

In article <1993Jan11.090716.1677@lmpsbbs.comm.mot.com> (David Ingham) writes:
>In article <1614@blue.cis.pitt.edu>, seawasp@vm2.cis.pitt.edu (Sea Wasp)
>> Paradoxically, of course, Sauron who couldn't be directly attacked COULD be,
>> and was, completely vanquished and destroyed, while Lord Foul could not
>> ever be destroyed or defeated for all time.

>But he was, when Covenant died. :) 

	I don't see any support for that at all. Foul was vanquished AGAIN,
but for all time? I see no indication of that. He was weakened, like the 
first time, to a vanishingly small power level, but Despite can't be
killed off. Like Ahnold, "He'll be back". It may take him twenty thousand
years, but he'll return. Of course, then he has the problem of Covenant
sitting up there as a living keystone, but all THAT does is make it
harder for Foul to escape. Not impossible...

>the other hand, wrote a story about Covenants struggle to deal with his own
>guilt (for having contracted leperosy, driving his wife and son away etc)
>and self despite.  Character motivation is the reason for the story.  The
>fantasy setting is just were Donaldson decided to place his story.  Could
>Covenant work in say a SF setting? 

	I don't know. An awful lot of plot would have to be changed, or
it would have to be set in a Space Opera kind of universe. That is,
most "normal" SF doesn't have an equivalent to Foul or to the Illearth
Stone or the Ring -- or their equivalents are a long, long stretch
away from the originals. In a sort of Lensman universe, I suppose you
could give someone like Covenant super-Lens abilities and put him up
against a Foul/Eddorian kind of being. Or the standard Anime esper --
Thomas Covenant as Amuro Rei and Foul as played by Papsimus Scirocco,
or Harmagedon...

	As far as not liking the Gap... I've only read pieces of it,
but what I've seen leads me to believe that he's created even more
objectionable characters than the early Covenant, with less redeeming
features. 

				Sea Wasp
From: matt@physics2.berkeley.edu (Matt Austern)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: across realtime (was Re: Anarchy in S.F.)
Date: 8 Jan 93 09:54:59
Organization: Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory (Theoretical Physics Group)
Distribution: na
	<1i68ggINNlu2@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>
	<1993Jan7.192133.26526@cybernet.cse.fau.edu>
	<8fHIVxe00WAtIg73kd@andrew.cmu.edu>
Reply-To: matt@physics.berkeley.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: physics2.berkeley.edu
In-reply-to: sk2f+@andrew.cmu.edu's message of 7 Jan 93 23:25:17 GMT

In article <8fHIVxe00WAtIg73kd@andrew.cmu.edu> sk2f+@andrew.cmu.edu (Seth D. Kadesh) writes:

> i just purchased _true names_, and prior to reading "the ungoverned", i
> re-read _the peace war_.  other than the fact that the two stories take
> place in the same universe, i saw no connection between the two.  in
> addition, what i remember of _marooned in real time_ has little in
> common with "the ungoverned" (other than the character will).  there
> doesn't seem to be any continuity between "the ungoverned" and the two
> novels.  am i missing something obvious?

Not really.  I think Vinge was just interested in the idea of an
anarchical society, so he wrote a novella that took place in that
society.  

Personally, I think that "The Ungoverned" isn't nearly as good as
Vinge's best work; it especially suffers in comparison to Marooned in
Realtime.  The hints and recollections about Will's society were much
more interesting than the explicit depiction in "The Ungoverned."
--
Matthew Austern                   Just keep yelling until you attract a
(510) 644-2618                    crowd, then a constituency, a movement, a
austern@lbl.bitnet                faction, an army!  If you don't have any
matt@physics.berkeley.edu         solutions, become a part of the problem!
From: drg@biomath.mda.uth.tmc.edu (David Gutierrez)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Heinlein - Politically correct?
Date: 11 Jan 1993 19:49:21 GMT
Organization: Univ. Texas M.D. Anderson Cancer Center

In article <1993Jan11.181750.16016@julian.uwo.ca> jdnicoll@prism.ccs.uwo.ca
(James Davis Nicoll) writes:
>	In  'Tunnel in the  sky',  wasn't the protagonist's sister
>a combat-experienced  soldier?

Indeed - she was a member of an elite all-female combat unit.

Also, one of the best fighters among the stranded students was a girl
(Caroline?).

David Gutierrez
drg@biomath.mda.uth.tmc.edu

"Only fools are positive." - Moe Howard

Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: pnh@panix.com (Patrick Nielsen-Hayden)
Subject: Re: KSRobinson _Red Mars_... When?
Organization: fwa
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 18:51:33 GMT

mkr@fid.morgan.com (Mike Rosenberg) writes:

>but just try to find it in hardcover...i have been to 6 major bookstores in
>new york city. not one had the hardcover. only one admitted that a hardcover
>even existed. i'm afraid that the increasing practice of releasing simultaneous
>hardcover & trade pb editions is flawed. bookstores seem to have the opinion
>that they may as well only order the pb, since no one wants to pay up for
>a hardcover science fiction novel. i would be interested to here what our friends
>in publishing think about this.

What I think about this practice is that I'm not wild about it, and that
there's a pretty substantial market for hardcover SF these days.  But it's
always easy to back-seat-drive someone else's publishing program.

-----
Patrick Nielsen Hayden       :      senior editor, Tor Books
pnh@panix.com * CIS: 72701,1344 * GEnie: PNH * opinions mine
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,rec.arts.books
From: higgins@fnalo.fnal.gov (Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: easy-to-confuse author names (was Re: New Ace SF Specials)
Date: 5 Jan 93 16:29:02 GMT
Organization: Fermilab Grossforschungenseinrichtungen
NNTP-Posting-Host: fnalo.fnal.gov

In article <BzyKyK.6nr@mentor.cc.purdue.edu>, blumb@sage.cc.purdue.edu (Bill Blum) writes:
> In article <1hm9ktINNo2l@agate.berkeley.edu> goldfarb@ocf.berkeley.edu (David Goldfarb) writes:
>>In article <1992Dec21.185218.1@fnala.fnal.gov> higgins@fnala.fnal.gov (Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey) writes:

>>)Once, I found myself in a consuite where the TV was playing ["Marooned"]
>>)Nobody was paying any attention to it.  I fiddled with the
>>)color controls on the TV set to suppress current from the green
>>)electron gun. I couldn't get anybody to comprehend the joke, however,
>>)much less laugh at it.   
>>
>>	I don't comprehend it either. Care to explain?
>>
> 
> Take the -ed off of the title _Marooned_.  
> When you supress the green gun, you'll get a redder picture (I think..not
> sure, my TV doesn't have acontrol for the Green Gun.)
> 
> Maroon is a shade of Red.

Right.   Without green, only red electrons and blue electrons will hit
the screen. The image is rendered in reds, blues, and shades of purple
(maroon is somewhere between red and purple).

> It was hard for me to catch at first upon reading it...but when I re read
> it at 2 am, everthing just gelled into one giant comprehensible ball.

I won't apologize to David because I *knew* my account of the prank
was oblique.  I was taking the risk that some readers might not
understand it, but I thought that was more interesting than spelling
out the joke more explicitly.

Glad I was able to give Bill Blum such an epiphanic moment.

     O~~*           /_) ' / /   /_/ '  ,   ,  ' ,_  _           \|/
   - ~ -~~~~~~~~~~~/_) / / /   / / / (_) (_) / / / _\~~~~~~~~~~~zap!
 /       \                          (_) (_)                    / | \
 |       |     Bill Higgins   Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory
 \       /     Bitnet:     HIGGINS@FNAL.BITNET
   -   -       Internet:  HIGGINS@FNAL.FNAL.GOV
     ~         SPAN/Hepnet:      43011::HIGGINS 
From: Joel.Rosenberg@f4018.n2555.z1.tdkt.kksys.com (Joel Rosenberg)
Sender: FredGate@tdkt.kksys.com
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: John W. Campbell Would Laugh...
Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1993 13:30:05 -0600

In a message to All <05 Jan 93 10:14> Eric S. Raymond writes in and says:

 ESR> ...at the recent attacks on him here. 
 ESR> Whatever his faults may have been (and
 ESR> he was as fallible a human as any of us)
 ESR> no report of him paints him as a petty
 ESR> or spiteful man.  Would that the same could be said of his detractors.

Read his letters in re Randall Garrett.

 ESR> His tough-minded, daring,
 ESR> individualistic, optimistic, stand-for-no-bullshit
 ESR> attitude shaped the attitudes of
 ESR> generations of fans --- fans who went on to
 ESR> put human beings on the Moon, pioneer
 ESR> the digital computer, and doubtless to
 ESR> create numerous other technologies in which Campbellian SF's inspiration
of
 ESR> the movers and shakers is less well attested.


 ESR> No amount of revisionism,
 ESR> second-guessing, might-have-beens, or petty sniping
 ESR> can take John Campbell's achievements
 ESR> away from him.  Those who try diminish
 ESR> only themselves in the effort.

All of which is certainly true, but there are other things about 
Campbell, much less flattering, that are also true.  He was a 
crank, and a devotee of crank causes (Scientology, the Dean 
Drive, the Heironymous machine, among others), and not merely as 
thought experiment; he was certainly a bigot, although a 
remarkably polite one (note his arguments, in the letters, to 
the effect that blacks are generally objectionable, tribal, 
etc.); he was willing to pontificate, apparently, on any subject 
whatsoever without bothering to inform himself about it (see 
Heinlein's devastating letter to him in Grumbles) and to berate 
those who actually knew more about such for not bowing before his 
expertise.  He was also willing to have accomplishments attached 
to his name that he did not earn ("John W. Campbell, Nuclear 
Physicist") at best without protest.


And, in his later years, he lost it.  Barry Malzberg, I believe, 
once listed a Who's Who of important SF writers to come along in 
Campbell's last years who he never published.  His editorials 
grew more strident, and had less of a core of a good nature to 
them, even as he apparently grew more sure of himself.


His importance in shaping SF as it is is none the less for all 
these things (although I find Heinlein rather more important 
in the Heinlein/Campbell balance than you clearly do); but all 
of them are true.
From: rgasch@nl.oracle.com (Robert Gasch)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: The Illuminatus trilogy
Date: 8 Jan 93 12:25:46 GMT
Organization: Oracle Europe
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8]

A10JBE8@niu.BITNET wrote:
: I was recently strongly urged by a friend of mine to read "The
: Illuminatus Trilogy" by Robert Shea and Robert Wilson.  After
: traveling all the way to Chicago to find it, I bought it.  I am
: only half way through with the first book in the trilogy and I
: am not only completely enthralled, but I am questioning just how
: fictional the story really is.
: Much of what is cited as agents of the Illuminati are real things
: and that makes me wonder.  Has anybody out there read this book?
: If so, did it make you a little paranoid?  The authors must have
: put  an incredible amount of thought and research into the writing
: of this book, and what I am wondering is... how much of this is
: based on fact?

I also was urged to read this book and in retrospect regret every 
minute I spend on it. I found it badly written, full of ridiculus
ideas and thus it didn't make me wonder about wether it is true 
of not. The authors just sort of dump the whole thing in your lap
and expect you to believe it, which IMHO is a *very* weak effort at
credibility.

If you're looking for a *much* better, more believable conspiracy
theory, I suggest you read Focault's Pendelum by Umberto Eco. This
book is wonderful and made me reflect in ways which TIT never even
came close to.

---> Robert

*******************************************************************************
* Robert Gasch	       *     Mach dich bereit fuer den Kampf ums Paradies     *
* Oracle Engineering   *   wir haben nichts zu verlieren ausser unsrer Angst  *
* De Meern, NL	       *              unsre Zukunft, unser Land               * 
* rgasch@nl.oracle.com *                   - Rio Reiser (WAAhnsinns Festival) *
*******************************************************************************
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written