From: ems@michael.apple.com (E. Michael Smith)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: .22 LR can kill at 1 mile
Date: 17 Nov 92 13:15:06 GMT
Organization: Apple Computer Inc, Cupertino, CA

In article <38fq!0+@dixie.com> jgd@dixie.com (John De Armond) writes:
#ems@michael.apple.com (E. Michael Smith) writes:
#
##In article <fpcqs4l@dixie.com> jgd@dixie.com (John De Armond) writes:
#
###While acknowledging that people have been killed by mere taps to the 
###temple, the numbers in this case just don't add up.  
##...
###Linearly extrapolating
###to 1760 yards (1 mile) puts the velocity at about 200 fps.  
#
##If a tap can do it, then a 200 fps bullet ought to also ...
##Maybe you need to add a 'probably' in there?
#
#*Sigh*.  Mike is again engaging in his hobby of quibbling about the 
#trees while missing the forrest.

"Sigh" yourself...  Look, first you say 'people have been killed by
mere taps to the temple' then you say 40 gr. at 200 fps won't do it.
I point out that you can't have it both ways, since 40 gr at 200fps is
greater than an tap.  Then you accuse me of missing the forrest for
the trees...  You can't have it both ways.  EITHER a tap can do it,
or a 40 gr 200fps lead slug can't.  Pick the position you want to 
take, then take it, but don't try to straddle the fence...

#I used what I considered reasonable but conservative numbers and techniques
#in an effort to set off an order of magnitude feel for the numbers.
#I forgot about Mike.  

How DARE you forget about me!  ;-)

#Let's zoom in on some particulars. 

I accepted your first batch of numbers... I'll accept your second
batch of numbers .. heck, just pick ANY defensable numbers and I'll
accept them...  I'm not argueing about your numbers!

GIVEN your numbers (which have shown some retained velocity at 1 mile)
you have to account for the terminal effect of 40 gr. hitting a soft
spot on a kids skull.  Pick your numbers, but then stick with them,
please...  Is it going to be 200 fps, or 0 fps?  If 0, then I'm done
and we can go home.  If 200, then send a slug at 200 into a melon
or coke can and report on the results.  (And there WILL be results...)

##This is being a bit absolutist.  I know it is a FOAF story, but the
##friend is a local police Seargent.  He worked a case where a child
##was killed by a BB from a plain old Daisy air rifle.  
#
#A BB emits from an air rifle anywhere from about 500 to 800 fps 
#velocity.  

And is a lot less than 40 gr. ...  ergo my request that someone with
a chronograph send a 40 gr slug at your calculated speed of 200 fps 
into a mellon and report on the penetration.

##Believe it, it can, does, and has happened.  
#
#Sorry but no.  Until and unless I see first hand evidence such as 
#the police report, I will NOT believe that anyone can be killed
#by a .22 fired a mile away.

OK, go get a kid, load up a 200 fps squib load, and shoot them in the temple.
If they have no problem, you are done, if they die, report from prison...
(no, I'm not serious...)

##I've shot pellets from a Benjamin pellet pistol into Coke cans and mellons
##with 3 pumps (rather than the usual 10).  I think you will find that a 
##40 grain slug at 200 fps does a decent job of punching holes in both 
##tin cans and mellons...
#
#Your Benjamin is a rather high powered gun as air pistols go.  
#They claim about 700 fps as I recall.  Don't forget to square the velocity
#when trying to compare the effects of different velocities.

Don't forget to take that 700 fps (which I think is high) and down
rate it by the 3 pumps vs. 10 pumps of a full 'charge'...  

I'm quite certain that you are not going to get anywhere near even 300
fps out of it at 3 pumps, given its performance when pumped to 10.

Common, John, you have access to a chronograph, I don't.  Go shoot a 
200 fps round into a coke can and report on the results.  (Or change 
your numbers to 0 fps at 1 mile and I'll accept that.)

#As to observing the effects of pellets, I have plenty of personal
#experience.  Like many of my contemporaries, the kids of my neighborhood
#and I fought many a pellet gun war.  I've dug more than one BB or
#pellet from my skin.  Not fun but certainly not fatal.  And I'm
#talking about full bore pellet guns, not gymped down ones.

I've seen pellets under the skin of friends, too (though I've never
had one myself... I had a metal chip from a hammer, though, at much
less than 200 fps, well under my skin...).  So what.  I've also sent
pellets clear through rather small rodents and birds (a 'depth' well
into the interior of a childs brain if sent through soft tissue...).
We can play anecdotal wars all day long to no avail.

I am willing to accept your numbers, whatever you wish to compute.

I am willing to accept your real world tests, whatever you choose to do.

I am NOT willing to accept your bald assertions.

Fish or cut bait.

##If I had a cronograph, I'd measure the velocity of the pelets and report,
##but I don't so I can't.  Can someone with a cronograph do the test?
#
#I do and I believe I noted in my first post that my junky chinese made 
#air rifle so loose that an air gap can be seen in the breech propels
#a pellet to over 700 fps.  (I'll do > 1000 fps if a bit of ether
#is sprayed in the compression chamber so it will diesel)

OK, you have a cronograph.  Go load up a 40 gr. 200 fps slug and 
shoot a mellon and a coke can, report on the results.  I don't 
care what your dieseling chineese air gun can do, the topic was
terminal balistics of a 22 lr at 1 mile using YOUR numbers.

If I had a cronograph, I'd be willing to work up a squib load for
my Thompson Contender .223 and do it.  Why won't you?

For that matter, if anyone near San Jose has a chronograph, give me
a call and lets go do it...

#Until someone shows me first hand evidence to the contrary, I stand
#by my assertion that a .22 lr bullet fired at a range of a mile cannot
#kill a human.  And probably would not even hurt him much.

And I'll stand by my assertion that until you are willing to conduct
a real world test of your theory, you are just blowing smoke.  I'm
willing to conduct a reality test, why arn't you?  Your numbers.  Your
assersions.  Your chrongraph.  Your mellon.  No one looking over your 
shoulder...

You can, of course, define the 'problem' away by redifining the 
terminal velocity to << 200 fps, if you want to change your numbers...

Bottom line:  You made an assertion that 40 gr at 200 fps is not
going to do dammage.  I've called your bluff.  Show your cards or fold.

-- 

E. Michael Smith  ems@apple.COM

'Whatever you can do, or dream you can, begin it.  Boldness has
 genius, power and magic in it.'  -  Goethe

I am not responsible nor is anyone else.  Everything is disclaimed.