HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: petterss@klaava.Helsinki.FI (Jouko Kalevi Pettersson)
Subject: Re: The Samii languages (are Nordic!)
Organization: University of Helsinki
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1993 16:58:57 GMT

Henrik Jonsson (d1hej@dtek.chalmers.se) wrote:

  (stuff deleted)
> 'When the ugrian people came wandering from Asia the ones that were
> able to read turned south towards Hungary and the other ones turned
> north towards Finland.'

Hungarians have a version of their own. They tell it like this:

'When the Ugries came from Asia, they stopped by crossroads and 
there was a singpost with two texts. The other was 'Battlefields
of Central Europe' and the other 'Nordic wellfare and democracy'.
They, who were able to read chose the latter.'

Notice the same melancoly with both nations!
-- 
Jouko Pettersson                 Email: Jouko.Pettersson@Helsinki.Fi
Department of Biochemistry
University of Helsinki
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: tknudsen@ics.uci.edu (Trond Knudsen)
Subject: Re: The Samii languages (are Nordic!)
Keywords: Samii, Nordic
Reply-To: tknudsen@ics.uci.edu (Trond Knudsen)
Organization: Univ. of Calif., Irvine, Info. & Computer Sci. Dept.
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 00:20:26 GMT

In article <2B48D0B5.24866@ics.uci.edu> tknudsen@ics.uci.edu (Trond Knudsen) writes:
>
>Sure, I'm sorry! Samii is not a indo european and germanic language,
>not Scandinavian, but of course Nordic!

Thinking about it, I suppose the Samii languages are Scandinavian as
well as Nordic since they are found in Scandinavia and the Nordic
countries.  But they are surely still not germanic.


-- 
Trond Knudsen
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: hberg@polisci.umn.edu (Bob Hammarberg)
Subject: Re: The Samii languages (are Nordic!)
Organization: Department of Political Science, University of Minnesota
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 14:54:41 GMT

In article <1993Jan7.061732.9981@jyu.fi> ryyti@jyu.fi (Jarmo Ryyti) writes:

>Bob Hammarberg (hberg@polisci.umn.edu) wrote:

>Which language is a nordic language if not saami! They were those
>who first settled down in Scandinavia. It is peculiar that now
>those who have come later explain that their language is a nordic
>language, not saami. Typical imperialism and colonialism.
>The saamis were the first and  their language is a truly nordic
>language, the others have come here much later.

..which just goes to prove my point that the notion of 'Nordic' is 
meaningless;  JArmo uses it as a geographic term, synonymous with "
Scandinavian'.  How he then manages to argue for Estonia and Carelia to be 
included in this only proves that his mind works in mysterious ways...
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: thietaniemi@cc.helsinki.fi
Subject: Re: The Samii languages (are Nordic!)
Organization: University of Helsinki
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 10:57:03 GMT

In article <nkjrm.99@taxus.uib.no>, nkjrm@taxus.uib.no (Rolf Manne) writes:
> I have not read Nordisk spraakkonvensjon. I have no problem of
> accepting a definition of the Nordic languages by enumeration or as those 
> languages which are historically spoken in the Nordic countries.
> 
> What I want to point out, however, is that in both Sweden and Norway
> there are university subjects and institutes with a deviating definition:
> Nordisk institutt at Norwegian universities and Institutionen foer nordiska 
> spraak at Swedish universities deal with the Nordic languages of Germanic 
> origin: Icelandic, Faeroish, Norwegian, Swedish and Danish. 


That's right. Even the University of Helsinki teaches "Nordisk filologi"
which means exactly the same. Still, this is an old definition that should
be abandoned gradually: in English one should speak about "Scandinavian
philology" to avoid misunderstandings.


> According 
> to the Uppsala catalog from 1985/86 Finsk-ugriska institutionen handled
> Finnish and Samish. 


And, I suppose, Estonian?


> There was no teaching of the Baltic languages in
> Uppsala that year.


Sometimes Nordic Scandinavians tend to forget that the only "Baltic
languages" are Latvian and Lithuanian.


The affair is little complicated: repetitio mater studiorum!

with best regards
Tapani Hietaniemi, Universitas Helsingiensis
                   urbs fennorum
From: kjetil.lenes@thcave.no (Kjetil Lenes)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: 8-bit news
Date: 5 Jan 93 19:15:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Thunderball Cave BBS - Oslo, Norway  (47 2) 29 94 41
Reply-To: kjetil.lenes@thcave.no (Kjetil Lenes)

Can you take this discussion elsewhere?

Kjetil

 * OLX 2.1 TD * I have an attitude and I know how to use it

Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: thietaniemi@cc.helsinki.fi
Subject: Re: The Samii languages (are Nordic!)
Organization: University of Helsinki
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 11:31:19 GMT

In article <hberg.288@polisci.umn.edu>, hberg@polisci.umn.edu 
(Bob Hammarberg) writes:
> In article <1993Jan5.022409.1@cc.helsinki.fi> thietaniemi@cc.helsinki.fi 
writes:
> 
> 
> 
>>Where's the beef?
> 
> 
> The beef is that 'Nordic' is not a natural category, and therefore to argue 
> over whether X is Nordic or not is an exercise in futility.  There simply is 
> no matter of empirical fact to be decided there, merely a matter of variable 
> convention.  If Estonia gets admitted to the Nordic Council, then suddenly 
> it has become Nordic, but there are no criteria that you can apply, at this 
> time, to demonstrate that it is Nordic and therefore should be admitted to 
> the Council.  If the Vatican, Somalia, and New Zealand get admitted to the 
> Council, then they too would be Nordic, right?
> 
> And someone should notify the Bering Straits Inuit that they are speaking a 
> Nordic language.  Perhaps they could get some support from the Nordic 
> Council?

According to my opinion:

(1) "Nordic" is a political concept <=> Refers to Nordic countries that
form the Nordic council.

(2) Scandinavian is a geographic (Scandinavian peninsula) and linguistic
concept (the Scandinavian tongues).

(3) Nordic denotes some "cultural togetherness" which is hard to define
"objectively" but for example former parts of Swedish kingdom like
Finland and Estonia share this common identity.

Which the Estonians clearly demonstrated when the re-established the
statue of Gustav II Adolf in Tartu/Dorpat and the Finns did the same
in Turku/Aabo.


If Estonians WANT to be Nordic, they should be accepted to have this
identity. Somalia is unlikely to apply for a membership in Nordic
Council as the Estonians have done.

with best regards
A Nordic non-Indoeuropean Baltic Finn
Tapani Hietaniemi, Universitas Helsingiensis
                   urbs fennorum

Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: hberg@polisci.umn.edu (Bob Hammarberg)
Subject: Re: Is Estonia "Nordic"? (Was: The Samii languages....)
Organization: University of Minnesota
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 15:56:48 GMT

In article <1993Jan9.172116.1@cc.helsinki.fi> thietaniemi@cc.helsinki.fi writes:


>The arguments against "Nordicness" of Estonia were based on the fact
>that Estonian is no Scandinavian tongue. Neither is Finnish.
>Should we be excluded from "Norden" because of that?

So the argument is purely linguistic, then?  That's hard to believe!  But 
if true, then you should thank us Finlandswedes for Finland's membership in 
the NC.  BTW, how many Estoniaswedes are still in Estonia?  

But let's get back to the original point:  There are no empirical criteria
for determining "Nordicness", hence any argument as to whether Estonia is a 
Nordic country or not, is meaningless.  The NC is a purely political 
organization, like the UN, and membership is determined by political 
considerations, not by examining a given country for signs of "Nordicness".
Can we agree on that?
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: bakd@tet.uni-hannover.de (Birol Akdemir)
Subject: Re: idiomatic expresion ?
Reply-To: bakd@tet.uni-hannover.de
Organization: Institut f. Theoretische Elektrotechnik, Univ. Hannover
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 10:08:49 GMT

Hei !

I will say :
               T U S E N   T A C K !
for the fast replys i have got.

Hoscakalin ( turkish == goodby, solong)
 
    Birol

---
Birol Akdemir
Adress :
e-mail: bakd@tet.uni-hannover.de
From: ovr@lk-hp-5.hut.fi (Otto-Ville Ronkainen)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Eastern vs. Western Europe (Wuz: The Samii languages (are Nordic!))
Date: 10 Jan 1993 19:47:24 GMT
Organization: L{nsi-Uudenmaan Keisarillinen Polyteknillinen Koulu
Reply-To: ovr@snakemail.hut.fi (Otto-Ville Ronkainen)
NNTP-Posting-Host: lk-hp-5.hut.fi

In article <STEINARB.93Jan10144548@villtind.idt.unit.no> steinarb@idt.unit.no (Steinar Bang) writes:
>A side comment: Very few people (even in Norway) think of how far east
>Norway stretches. In a place like Kirkenes for instance sun time
>(assuming you are there at a time of the year when the sun is visible)
>is about two hours offset from the clock time which is CET (Central
>European Time).

Nah, the center longitude for EET (or CETDST, the same thing) is 30 degrees
east, which goes approximately through Kirkenes. Therefore, Kirkenes is
about the only place in Europe that has correct time during daylight
saving time. Then again, with midnight sun in the summer, this is quite
insignificant.
--
Ott-Vill R______________________
ovr@snakemail.hut.fi
From: frisk@complex.is (Fridrik Skulason)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Danish and Icelandic Kronas
Date: 4 Jan 93 21:02:00 GMT
Organization: Frisk Software International, Iceland

armagan@sassafras (Armagan Ozdinc) writes:

>How are Danish Krona and Icelandic Krona doing these days? 

The Icelandic krona was devaluated by 6% or so...the first devaluation in a
relatively long time, so just as before is is worth around 10% of the
three scandinavian Kronor - that is 50-60 Icelandic kronor in the US$.

-frisk


-- 
--
Fridrik Skulason      Frisk Software International     phone: +354-1-694749
Author of F-PROT      E-mail: frisk@complex.is         fax:   +354-1-28801
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: ryyti@jyu.fi (Jarmo Ryyti)
Subject: Re: The Samii languages (are Nordic!)
Organization: University of Jyvaskyla, Finland
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 06:33:48 GMT

Henrik Jonsson (d1hej@dtek.chalmers.se) wrote:
: ryyti@jyu.fi (Jarmo Ryyti) writes:
: 
: >Well, Finland is one of the most eastern countries in Europe.
  Eastern-Finland is more in the east than for instance Istanboul, in Turkey.
  So in geographical terms they are correct. Finnish is however
 lingistiqually a fenno-ugrian language, geographically a scandinavian
 language, one should remember that finnish is since 800 years been
 a minority language in Sweden without any official status, 
in Norway finnish is actually an old minority language too.
: 
: Well , for once , I don't share your oppinion, mr Ryyti.

Do you mean something above I have written is incorrect information?
So which one?
: 
: And in the 'good ole' days' when Finland was a part of Sweden (or if you like
: if better) 'occupied' , Finnish had the same status in the Swedish Parliament
: in Stockholm as Swedish since many of the represenataives from Eastern
: Sweden :) spoke Finnish ...
 
I tshould bo so even today in Swedish Parlament, why you have changed
the status of finnish in Sweden?
: 
: But ,Sure, I truly feel sorry that we horrible Swedes totally ruined your
: beautifully civilized country in the 12th century when we occupied it,
: build universities and organized cities and stuff. I really think it's
: a crying shame that the world doesnt declare Finns as the highest of all
: races and mr. Ryyti to be the Finns leader...
: 
I would not be so sure about the superiority of swedish language as a 
language of intelligenzia. The language used earlier at the swedish
universities was namely LATIN.
Not swedish. Swedish became very late a language of
the universities. Swedish Academia was founded first 1800 th century
(av Gustav III p} 1700-talet)

The first dissertion written in SWEDISH  was a tornedal FINN
named Anders Hellant and it was he who gave swedish language an academical
status. Sorry if I destroy your world?

"N{r Svenska Akademian inr{ttades av Gustav III blev den fors|rjd av
r{ntorna fr}n laxfisket i Torne [lv. Det var ledam|ten i Vetenskapakademien
Anders Hellant (1717-1789) som s}g till att laxfiskets pengar f|rflyttades
ner till Stockholm. Det var {ven tornedalingen Anders Hellant
som skrev den f|rsta avhandlingen p} svenska och gav svenska spr}ket
akademisk status. P} det s{ttet betalade tornedalingarna "De adertons"
verksamhet och inf|rde svenskan som den l{rda klassens skriftspr}k. Som
|dets ironi blev tornedalingarna sj{lva tvungna att avskaffa sitt
eget moderspr}k FINSKA.

Source:Invadrare&Minoriteter 3/92. Birger Winsa fil. dr.
University of Stockholm


The stupidity which many swedes represent even in this newsgroup with this
background is again proved. The swedes university people had every evening
to give a pray of thankfulness for the Finns. Otherwise  swedish were 
remained a language of peasents. 

Regards for the all swedes who even do not know their own history, thanks
to the Grundskolan?
regards,
jarmo ryyti
From: JMARTTILA@FINABO.ABO.FI (Fast-Eddie Felson)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Is Estonia "Nordic"? (Was: The Samii languages....)
Date: 12 Jan 93 18:37:03 GMT
Organization: Turku School of Economics
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.24

In <JANERIC.93Jan12102457@bellman.control.lth.se> janeric@control.lth.se writes:
> I think you are wrong. Of course the borders of Estonia cannot be
> opened to the Nordic countries immediately, but I think that the
> Nordic countries should do as much as possible to help Estonia join
> Norden and "Europe". In economical terms it will be costly, but that
> should be weighed against the political and cultural values gained.

Right... not immediately, but later. I didn't say that the borders should be
closed forever, but say for example the next 10 or 20 years depending on how
quickly things change in Estonia. 
Helping Estonia doesn't need Estonia joining the Nordic countries or anything
like that. We are helping Estonia already, aren't we? We can push it to the
right direction until it's mature enough to join Norden.

	JM
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: ryyti@jyu.fi (Jarmo Ryyti)
Subject: Re: The Samii languages (are Nordic!)
Organization: University of Jyvaskyla, Finland
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 07:19:23 GMT

Eric Barber (sizex@bnr.co.uk) wrote:
: In article <nkjrm.100@taxus.uib.no> nkjrm@taxus.uib.no (Rolf Manne) writes:
: >In article <hberg.290@polisci.umn.edu> hberg@polisci.umn.edu (Bob Hammarberg) writes:
: 
: >As I have said before, at least in Sweden and Norway, the word "Nordic"
: >is used as a linguistic category in the term "Nordiska spraak" meaning
: >Scandinavian languages + Icelandic and Faeroese.
: >Scandinavia is used for Denmark, Sweden and Norway, and excludes
: >Iceland and the Faero islands as well as Finland, etc. 
: >In English one would probably use the term Scandinavian languages for
: >all the "Nordiska spraak".

I think the term Nordic and Scandinavian is a geographical term.
So the languages spoken on the area traditionally are "noedic" or
"scandinavian" languages.
: 
: interestingly, at least some people in the department of scandinavian
: studies at university college london regard finnish as a scandinavian
: language even though it's taught at the department of east european
: studies at ucl!
: 
Well, Finland is one of the most eastern countries in Europe. Eastern-Finland
is more in the east than for instance Istanboul, in Turkey. So in geographical
terms they are correct. Finnish is however lingistiqually a fenno-ugrian
language, geographically a scandinavian language, one should 
remember that finnish is since 800 years been a minority language in Sweden
without any official status, in Norway finnish is actually an old minority
language too.
regards,
jarmo
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: rhtfest@cs.vu.nl (Festen RHT)
Subject: Re: The Samii languages (are Nordic!)
Organization: Fac. Wiskunde & Informatica, VU, Amsterdam
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 20:05:30 GMT

hberg@polisci.umn.edu (Bob Hammarberg) writes:
: If the Vatican, Somalia, and New Zealand get admitted to the 
: Council, then they too would be Nordic, right?

Well... doesn't the term 'Nordic' (also) refer to 'being north'? In that
case the Vatican and Somalia could be, but New Zealand would
never make it as 'Nordic', because it is south of the equator.
Even being in the Nordic counsel, I cannot imagine anyone seriously
considering it Nordic. Just as admitting Turkey as an EC would
not make it european (that's what I think) or just as Istanbul
is Turkish, though not Asian.

-- 
~~~~~~~~RHT Festen, Amsterdam, The Netherlands~~~~~~~~~rhtfest@cs.vu.nl~~~~~~~~
From: hberg@polisci.umn.edu (Bob Hammarberg)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: The Samii languages (are Nordic!)
Date: 8 Jan 93 21:53:33 GMT
Organization: University of Minnesota

In article <1993Jan8.192742.1@cc.helsinki.fi> thietaniemi@cc.helsinki.fi writes:



>> Realistically,  Estonia's "Swedishness" must be 
>> seen as a "good old days" fantasy.


>I am not calling Estonia Swedish but it's Estonians that would like to be 
>accepted "Nordic".

Well, isn't part of Estonia's claim to "Nordicness" based on once having 
been part of an indisputably Nordic realm, ie Sweden?  (that's how I 
understood your argument).  Realistically (again), Estonia's desire to join 
the Nordic Council is based on economic considerations, and a desperate wish 
to get out of the XUSSR sphere of influence.  The Swedish resistance to the 
idea seems to be its (Sweden's) traditional wish for neutrality: stay out 
of anything that could cause trouble later, in case Russia decides to 
reassert its claims to the Baltic regions.
 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: hberg@polisci.umn.edu (Bob Hammarberg)
Subject: Re: Inauguration question
Organization: Department of Political Science, University of Minnesota
Distribution: soc
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 16:12:15 GMT

In article <etxmow.726749700@garboc29> etxmow@garboc29.ericsson.se (Mats Winberg) writes:



>    If the incumbent wins the presidential election is there still
>    an inauguration ceremony, or is it skipped because he/she has already
>    taken the oath once?  And what about the two term limit? Is it
>    two terms altogether or two terms in a row that is the limit?

I *do* like the implication that President Bill is Everybody's President..

But, to the point:  The oath has to be retaken even in the case of re-
election. (In the case of Reagan that made sense; he probably had forgotten 
what the whole thing was about anyway)

The term limit is two terms, all in all, but if you take over (as vice 
prez.) from another president, you can serve a max of 10 years.  So Lyndon 
J:son could have run for a second term of his own, since he only used one 
year of Kennedy's term, but Ford couldn't have run for re-election (had he 
won in 76), since he used up 3 of Tricky Dicky's years.

Amendment XXII to the US Constitution:

No person shall be elected to the Office of the President more than twice, 
and no person who has held the office of President, or acted as President, 
for more that two years of a term to which some other person was elected 
President, shall be elected to the office of the President more than once.
....
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: armagan@sassafras (Armagan Ozdinc)
Subject: Re: Norden > Scandinavia (Was: The Saami languages which are Nordic)
Reply-To: armagan@prc.unisys.com
Organization: Paramax Systems
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 19:39:02 GMT

In article <hberg.301@polisci.umn.edu>, hberg@polisci.umn.edu (Bob Hammarberg) writes:
|> In article <1993Jan12.160058.1@cc.helsinki.fi> thietaniemi@cc.helsinki.fi writes:
|> 
|> 
|> >Here's our family tree seen from the Finnish point of view:
|> 
|> >                         Finnish
|> >                            I
|> >                            I
|> >Estonian ------------------------------------------- Karelian
|> >Vote                        I                        Ingrian
|> 
|> .....
|> 
|> >                            I
|> >                            I
|> >                 Proto-Uralic ------------------------ Samoyedic
|> >                                                       tongues
|> 
|> What's the currrent opinion among Finnish scholars about the Uralic 
|> connection to Japanese and Korean (via Uralic-Altaic, of course)?  
|> The Japanese and Korean students we get here have been taught back home 
|> that the connection is an established fact, it seems.

It is not just Japanese and Korean. It also includes Turkish and Mongolian.
To the best of my knowledge, the gramatical structure is similar between
these two groups. There can be found a similar words between Finnish and
Hungarian, but not necessarilyu between Turkish and Finnish. On the other
hand, I know that there are some similar words between Turkish and Japanese,
but not too many in any case.

----------------------------------------------------------------
 ARMAGAN A. OZDINC
 Paramax Systems, Valley Forge Labs, Research and Development
________________________________________________________________
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: JANIEMI@FINABO.ABO.FI (Jarmo Niemi TUY)
Subject: Re: Inauguration question
Organization: Abo Akademi University, Finland
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 15:40:55 GMT
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.24

In <etxmow.726749700@garboc29> etxmow@garboc29.ericsson.se writes:

> 
> 
>     If the incumbent wins the presidential election is there still
>     an inauguration ceremony, or is it skipped because he/she has already
>     taken the oath once?  And what about the two term limit? Is it
>     two terms altogether or two terms in a row that is the limit?
> 
> 
> 
>     Mats Winberg
>     Stockholm, Sweden

For the Finnish presidency the answer is roughly as follows: There is
an inauguration ceremony and an oath even if the President is re-elected.
I _think_ that the two-term limit means two terms altogether.

More interesting facts about Finnish presidential inauguration: The 
presidential oath is actually not an oath, it is a "solemn declaration", 
which does not invoke God. Even those presidents, who have been installed
by special laws by the parliament (at least Mannerheim, Paasikivi and 
Kekkonen) have declared: I, N.N. whom the Finnish people have elected
the President of the Republic etc... I don't know, if this is a matter
of tradition or law, but at least when Kekkonen was elected by special 
law in 1974, the declaration sounded pretty hypocritical to me.

Jarmo Niemi   Biochemistry, University of Turku
              SF-20500 Turku, Finland
              ++358-21-6335758
	      FAX ++358-21-633 6388
              janiemi@finabo.abo.fi

Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic