From: eje@irenaeus.mlo.dec.com (Eric James Ewanco)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Lost Salvation
Date: 11 Nov 92 07:57:59 GMT
Reply-To: ewanco@kalvin.enet.dec.com
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation

In article <Nov.8.01.05.26.1992.8572@geneva.rutgers.edu>, mpeever@uvphys.phys (Mark Peever) writes:

> >>Does anyone believe it is possible to totally reject God, full 360,
> >>after being saved (accepting Jesus, knowing Him) and enter hell?


> >Speaking from experience, yes. (Have to wait and see about the hell part
> >though :-) !)


>  What exactly do you mean by "totally reject God?"
> It is definitely possible for a Christian to reject the Lord, but that
> in no way implies that the Lord rejects him.

>  When Paul, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit of God, wrote the 
> book of I Timothy, he said:
> 	"...if we deny Him, yet He remaineth faithful
> 	He cannot deny Himself"
> The implication here is that if God were to deny or reject us, after Christ's
> finished work on the cross, that He would, in fact, be denying Himself.
> Thus, we are assured that Hewill never reject us, because He cannot reject
> Himself.

Umm, I'm afraid you may be reading something into this.  it says that if we
deny him, he remains faithful.  That doesn't necessarily imply that he will not
deny or reject us.  I think it means that He will always be there for us to
return -- he will be faithful.  We can always be reconciled to him.  But I
believe that if we are not reconciled, though he is faithful, he will need to
condemn us, because we have rejected him.  "He who believes and is baptized
will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned."  "Now, brothers,
I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on
which you have taken your stand.  By this gospel you are saved, if you hold
firmly to the word I preached to you.  Otherwise, you have believed in vain."
(1 Cor 15:1).  Believed in vain . . .  we are lost if we do not hold firmly to
the true Gospel.

>  A similar argument was used by the apostle who, under God's direction, wrote
> the book of Hebrews. In chapter 13, we are assured that God's enduring
> promise to the Israelites is also applicable to us:

> 	"I will never leave you, nor forsake you.." (vs. 5)

> Clearly, then God is bound by His own promise that He can never leave us,
> nor can we leave Him.

Again, not leaving us is different from granting us salvation.  God always
awaits our repentance, and is always there to take us back, and he always
woos us back to him, he will never cease.  Yet, if we are not faithful, as
scripture says elsewhere, we are not saved.

>  The implication of this is that God was the only party in the agreement.
> Thus, since Abraham was not party to the covenant, the fulfillment of it did
> not rest with him, that is, no matter what he did, God would still be bound
> to fulfill His part of the agreement.

>  In a similar way, we are told in Hebrews 9, Christ made a blood covenant for
> our redemption in His own blood on the cross. However, like Abraham, we
> weren't there at the cross. Therefore, as the apostle points out, we are not
> party to the agreement, and the fulfillment of it does not depend on us.

Where does the Apostle point this out?  That's certainly not what he said to
the Corinthians, or to Timothy . . . elsewhere he says that those who shrink
back will be destroyed (Heb 10:38f), and that we come to share in the
inheritance only if we hold firmly to the confidence we had at first (3:14).
Hebrews also says that those who have fallen away cannot be brought back to
repentance and are necessarily lost, because in order for them to be saved,
Christ would have to be crucified all over again.

>  There is nothing you can do against God that could ever make Him overlook
> what Christ did for you. As a sinner, nothing you do can ever get you 
> into God's presence, as a Christian, there is nothing you can do to get out.

Really?  Why did Jesus say that anyone who called his brother "You Fool!"
would be liable to the fires of Hell? 

If there is nothing you can do to lose your salvation, is there anything you
can do to receive it?

/===========================================================================\
| Eric Ewanco - Software Engineer   For the rash and outrageous opinions ex-|
| Digital Equipment, Maynard MA     pressed herein I alone am responsible;  |
| ewanco@kalvin.enet.dec.com        they do not belong to DIGITAL(TM).      |
\==========================- 2 Th 2:15 -====================================/
    "...[T]he greatest and most ancient Church known to all, founded and
    organized at Rome by [] Peter and Paul, [is] that Church which has the
    tradition and faith which comes down to us after having been announced
    to men by the Apostles.  For with this Church, because of its superior
    origin, all Churches must agree ...  and it is in her that the
    faithful everywhere have maintained the Apostolic tradition."
       -- St. Irenaeus, Against Heresies, c. 180 A.D., 3,3,3.