From: johnsd2@vccnw07.its.rpi.edu.its1 (Daniel Norman Johnson)
Subject: Re: VERIFYING CHRISTIANITY #1
Reply-To: johnsd2@vccnw07.its.rpi.edu.its1
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 03:09:50 GMT

In article 18539@news.ysu.edu, af664@yfn.ysu.edu (Frank DeCenso, Jr.) writes:
>
>In attempting to verify the claims of Christianity, one must first start
>with the document(s) it's 'precepts' are contained in...the Bible.
> 
>Written over a 1500 year span.
>written over 40 generations.
>Written by 40 different authors from every walk of life.
>Written in different places.
>Written at different times (war, peace, etc.).
>Written during different moods.
>Written on three continents (Asia, Africa, Europe).
>Written in three languages (Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek).
>Subject matter contains hundreds of controversial subjects.
>Writing styles range from historical to poetic to doctrinal.

Ok so far.

>Yet from it's first book (Genesis) to it's last (Revelation), it is in
>  COMPLETE harmony in it's major subject - God's redemption of man.

Doesn't seem to be to me. Can you demonstrate this to me?

>No other work can duplicate these variables. It is truly "UNIQUE".

No other would want to.

>Manuscript evidence is another important source of evidence in proving the
>claims of the Bible.

[deletia- long list]

> 
>TOTAL MANUSCRIPTS OF NEW TESTAMENT KNOWN TO BE IN EXISTANCE...24633
> 
>The second most widely attested work of antiquity is Homer's Illiad which
>has a total of 643 surviving manuscripts.

Will, the Bible WAS rather popular during the Middle Ages.. got copied
a lot ya know.

>Has anyone questioned the authenticity of Homer's Illiad lately?

:) Just take it on faith, bub! :)

>It's also important to compare other writings of antiquity (which are
>virtually never disputed) with the Bible.

If these are "virtually never disputed", then whoever is supposed to dispute
them is a moron.

I'll delete the ones I dont know about and show you what I mean.

>AUTHOR                WHEN WRITTEN    EARLIEST COPY   TIME SPAN   # OF COPIES
> 
>Caesar (Gallic Wars)   100-44 BC       900 AD           1000 yrs.   10

This is literally propaganda. Ceaser published this to prove
to everyone how great he was. Its not too bad, but don't trust it too far.

>Livy (Roman History)   59 BC-17 AD                                  35

Contained history, but also quasi-historical mythology. Where does one
end and the other begin?

>Herodotus (History)    480-425 BC      900 AD           1300 yrs.   8

Isn't this the guy that, ah, was well known for making stuff
up to make the story better?

>Lucretius              55 or 53 BC                      1100 yrs.   2

The only work of his I can think of is teh "De Rerum Naturae" which
is more of a philosohpical text, with some (Rather dubious) science
thrown in to support it. (its also VERY STRONGLY atheist!)

Is there some other work I dont know about?

>Catullus               54 BC           1550 AD          1600 yrs.   3

The erotic poet? :) He write something interesting?

>Homer (Illiad)         900 BC          400 BC           500 yrs.    643

You BELIEVE what's in the Illiad?

I think you need a reality check on that one.

> 
>NEW TESTAMENT          40-100 AD       125 AD           25 YRS.     24633
>
>There can be no doubt that if authenticity of any work of antiquity needs to
>be questioned, it certainly isn't the New Testament !

The New Testament is one of many. So's the Old.

>Any Classical Writing critics out there?

Not I. :)

>Dr. Simon Greenleaf, who was the Royall Professor of Law at Harvard Univ.,
>wrote "A Treatise on the Law of Evidence", a three-volume work, considered
>one of the greatest works on this subject in legal literature.

Ok. What's this got to do with legal literature?

>Using these rules of evidence, he researched the Resurrection of Jesus
>Christ and came to the conclusion that according to the laws of legal 
>evidence administered in courts of law, there is more evidence for the 
>Resurrection of Jejesus than for just about any other event in history !

:)

If you accept all the writings about him that's true, but how much
is not hearsay (is that the right term?) ?

>He recorded his findings in the book, "An Examination of the Testimony of
>the Four Evangelists by the Rules of Evidence Administered in the Courts
>of Justice".

Ok.

> The scientific method is related to measurement of phenomena and
>experiment-ation or repeated observation.

Ok. True 'nuff.

>The scientific method isn't appropriate for answering questions like,
>"Did Jesus Christ rise from the dead?", "Was Lincoln shot in a theater?",
>etc.

True.

It can anser other points. How old is the earth, are bats birds, do
grosshoppers have 4 legs. Etc.

>Historical events must be taken out of the realm of scientific proof and
>put into the realm of legal proof.

Why?

>This kind of proof is established on the basis of the evidence; when
>there's no reasonable basis for doubting the decision.

There's lots in this case. The Christians picked and chose the various
gospels to help them spread the faith. A lot of stuff was written on the
assumption that the Bible was accurate.

>It depends upon three types of testimony : oral testimony, written
>testimony, and exhibits.
>
>The Old Testament contains over 300 references to the Messiah that were
>literally fulfilled in Jesus.

I have never even heard of one. Rather odd, when you think about it.

> The probability of one man fulfilling 48 of
>the over 300 prophecies is 1 in 10 to the 157th power (10 with 157
>zeroes).

This is meaningless. Its very easy to write a story about a man
who fufilled them all. That's what seems to have happened.

There was certainly motive enough.

>Part of the Bibliographical test to substantiate a document's validity
>is to see how widely it was accepted as well as quoted.

The Bible must be #1 or #2 on both counts.

> Below is a chart
>detailing quotations of the New Testament in others' writings prior to
>the Council of Nicea (325 AD).
> 
>               Gospels  Acts   Pauline E.  General E.  Revelation  Total
>Justin Martyr  268      10     43          6           3           330
>                                                       (266
>                                                        allusions)
>Iranaeus       1038     194    499         23          65          1819
>Clement        1017     44     1127        207         11          2406
>Origen         9231     349    7778        399         165         17922
>Tertullian      3822     502    2609        120         205         7258
>Hippolytus     734      42     387         27          188         1378
>Eusebius       3258     211    1592        88          27          5176
> 
>Totals         19368    1352   14035       870         664         36289
> 
>The New Testament was widely accepted and used as authentic as well as
>factual by people who lived very near the time of the writers of the New
>Testament !

How do you even know what that time was? And is 7 writers "widely"?
Remember that in teh Middle Ages, you were not going to see a lot
of dissenting texts preserved!

I dont think this is a valid conclusion.

>-- 
>Frank
>.....
>"Forever, O LORD, your word is settled in heaven."  PSALM 119:89
>"The entirety of Your word is truth."  PSALM 119:160

Oh, that don't seem too likely...

---
			- Dan Johnson
And God said "Jeeze, this is dull"... and it *WAS* dull. Genesis 0:0

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