From: seanmcd@ac.dal.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.games
Subject: Re: Street Fighter
Date: 26 Jan 93 00:23:54 -0400
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.games
Organization: Dalhousie University, Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

In article <cshotton-250193124726@oac2.hsc.uth.tmc.edu>, cshotton@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Chuck Shotton) writes:
> In article <1993Jan25.113208.10547@ac.dal.ca>, seanmcd@ac.dal.ca wrote:
>> 
>> Not a hardware problem? Then explain how such games can be done on the genesis
>> when it has the identical processor to a mac plus. There are certain 
>> dedicated hardware features in such game consoles that allow you to do fast
>> rotation, scaling, and scrolling. How much do you know about Mac programming?
>> I'm not an expert, but I know that page flipping ability is limited, you can't
>> change the pointer to video memory to get fast scrolling and there's no
>> hardware support for special effects like on a SNES for example. One thing that
>> is useful is the palette animation ability.
>> 
> 
> I would suggest that you spend some time learning about the Mac hardware
> and operating system before you make such broad, generalized statements. In
> the meantime, if you want all of the features of a SNES or Genesis, then go
> buy one. If you want a general purpose desktop computing system, then buy
> something like a Mac.
> 

Gee, Chuck, I have a Mac and a Genesis. I was never stating that I wanted my
Mac to be a Genesis. If you had followed the original thread, you would have
seen that I was merely pointing out why the Mac would have difficulties
making *certain* types of games that hardware assistance on an Amiga, or the
low-res mode of a PC make more feasible. BTW, I do program on the Mac, I know
a fair amount about the hardware, and I'm very impressed with what QuickDraw
can do on an 8Mhz 68000. But it's still not a genesis: my only point. I fail to
see how my enumeration of particular aspects of the Mac hardware constitutes
"broad generalized statements". 
 
> Let's look at this from another point of view. How come my SNES (or
> Genesis) doesn't have a SCSI port or NuBus slots? Why can't it accept
> inputs from my cool optical mouse? How come it can't run Excel? Why doesn't
> it have custom support for digital sound input or 24 bit color? Why can't I
> save my games to a floppy disk? Why can't I run Think C on it and write my
> own games? blah blah blah blah.
> 
> Get my point?
> 

I don't see where I ever implied that a Mac should be a genesis, or that a 
genesis should be a Mac. No need to jump to conclusions...

>> Publishers can have the best of intentions, but that doesn't mean that they
>> can overcome the inherent speed limitations of hardware. It's not a question
>> of mind over matter...
>> 
> 
> You have an overly simplistic view of what makes a video game work. Innate
> processor speed has little to do with the performance or realism or
> playability of the game. It may have something to do with the ease with
> which a game is implemented, but certainly doesn't preclude the
> implementation using software-based methods. FYI, the whole full-motion
> simulator used to train astronauts on the space shuttle uses an amount of
> processor power equivalent to only a couple of old '286 PCs. (without any
> custom graphics hardware, etc.) That is certainly a more complicated "video
> game" than anything you've played before.

"Overly simplistic?" I think that rather it's overly simplistic on your part to
discount processor speed. Furthermore, the precise point of my post that you
seem to take issue with, if you would read it, is that the genesis & mac have
identical processor speeds. Again, if you had stuck with what I wrote, you would
see that I was pointing out that certain additional hardware makes a big 
difference. Also, we were discussing neither realism nor playability, merely the
ability of the mac to make a game like Street Fighter, with its smooth scrolling
fast sprites and multi-channel sound. 

> 
>> As I said before, the non-existence of a 320 x 200 graphics mode on the mac
>> limits the ability of pc ports for games like ultima underworld. I'm not
>> saying that it couldn't be done, but that programmers who would like to port
>> it would have extra challenges that *might* not be surmountable.
>> 
> 
> How about if you explain to me what the dimensions of the screen have to do
> with porting a game? I'll grant you that the 2 options of running in a
> 320x200 window or doubling the size of the bitmaps are less than optimal.
> But, I submit to you that the real reason that DOS ports aren't easy isn't
> because the artwork looks ugly, but because the PC weenies that wrote the
> game do all sorts of direct nasties with the video hardware because the PC
> (DOS) lacks a standard set of graphics primatives for doing
> device-independent graphics. 
> 
I thought you were the Mac expert, Chuck! :-) As I stated earlier in the thread,
which you apparently didn't read, moving from 320x200 to 640x480 roughly 
quadruples the amount of video memory you need to update. I'm *only* talking 
about games with rapid full screen updates. Yes, I agree that most PC ports to
the Mac are not very good and that very little effort is put in to make them
agreeable to Mac users. I just got Pools of Darkness by SSI: the 320x200 was
too small, while the double-sized screen looks chunky and gross. I'm glad that
I've got a 512x384 classic screen to play it on!

> While you're at it, how about explaining why the Mac game world should be
> limited to the lame resolution of PCs in the first place?

They shouldn't and they aren't. But for optimal speed it helps.
> 
> I'm sorry if this sounds flamish, but your intolerance of Mac
> hardware/software appears to be based on a lack of understanding and you
> really should learn a little bit more about it.

Intolerance? When I'd sell my first-born for a colour Mac if I had one? I'm
hardly intolerant, especially since I work as an apple rep on campus here
promoting their products. I don't touch pc's with a 10-foot pole. And I've 
spent the last 20 months programming a mac game...

Maybe instead of attacking a piece of a thread out of context from the whole
discussion and making attacks that are neither warranted nor justified in my
opinion, you could start at the start and see what's been going on. IMHO.  

Sean
^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^
Sean McDowell                    "I am the first immoralist:
Dalhousie University Law School   that makes me the annihilator
seanmcd@ac.dal.ca                 par excellence" - Nietzsche
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.games