From: fkhoury@bonnie.ics.uci.edu (Diego A. Maradona)
Subject: Re: Chritians, Muslems, and M.G
Newsgroups: soc.culture.lebanon
Reply-To: sunjin@orion.ca
Date: 17 Aug 92 19:02:41 GMT

In article <1992Aug17.041110.919@ee.eng.ohio-state.edu> rached@sample.eng.ohio-state.edu (Rached Zantout) writes:
>In article <1992Aug17.025724.2641@trl.oz.au>, faris@sarcasm.trl.OZ.AU (Aziz Faris) writes:
>> This is primarily aimed at that creature by the initial M.G.
>>
>> To begin, Christains lived in the middle east six hundred years before Islam begun. In
>> case you did not know, most of the generals that lead the armies of Mohammed were
>> Christains who were hired by the prophet and his associates. Later on they were forced
>> to convert to Islam or face death by the sword like every one else.
>Mr. Faris,
>Can you give us references to those christians GENERALS that leads the prophet's
>armies ?????
>For your knowledge (which after reading your article I doubt exists) non-muslims
>were NOT allowed to fight with an Islamic army. Jihad at those days was done by
>MUSLIMS only.
>Also as a lesson in History for you, the land which is now Palestine, Syria,
>Lebanon, Iraq and Iran as well as the other Islamic countries were opened after
>the death of the prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him). So are you saying that he
>hired them after being dead ???????

To further illustrate, I think what Mr. Faris meant was that prophet Muhammad's
father was called Abdullah.  According to the history you claim and pretend
to be familiar with, the only people who lived in that area were Christians.
Abdullah is a Christian name, then taken to be a muslim one.  This argument
lead to the 100% fact that prophet Muhammad's father was a Christian.

According to the history you claim and pretend be familiar with, who tought
prophet Muhammed.  Wasn't it a priest?  Wasn't he called RAHEB BUHAIRA.
WASN'T HE A CHRISTIAN.  Come on, get real cut the bullshitts and wake up from
the sleep they put you in.  Is the word RAHEB mean a Muslim?  (I am assuming
you know Arabic, all words in Arabic and not just those they teach and want
you to know.)

>For your information also NO ONE CAN BE FORCED TO CONVERT TO ISLAM. I don't know

Are you being serious, man?  Wasn't HADD EL-SEIF used to open all lands by
Islam.

>why some of our christian brothers and sisters do not understand that. The rule
>is very clear in the Quran :
>
>LA IKRAHA FIDDIN
>
>It is mentioned in Surah Baqarah (II) after (Ayat Alkursi).
>Were Muslims to convert people by force, you wouldn't find any non-muslim
>nowadays in the middle east. Instead for Muslims their duty is not to force
>people to any religion but make clear the truth (i.e. Islam) to people, whoever
>accepts it is from them and whovere doesn't then he/she is left to his/her own
>religion.
>
>>
>> Christains DO NOT LOOK TO FRANCE OR ANY OTHER WESTERN COUNTRY AS THEIR MOTHER COUNTRY.

This might be true Mr. Rached.  But it is true just because of the way you
treat us in the middle-east.  If you were as good to us as France is, we would
have probably looked at you as our MOTHER.

>> It is only through desparity that they have any feelings toward the west. They have
>> been alienated by the present political climate from beeing involved directly and do no
>> have control over their destiny.
>
>Well, about what country are you talking ? Since this is soc.culture.LEBANON I
>assume you are talking about LEBANON. Well the president of the republic is
>CHRISTAIN, the army cheif is CHRISTAIN, CHRISTIANS had a majority in the
>parliament, now they have equal seats as do muslims. Then can you explain how
>they have been alienated from being involved directly and have control over their

That is right.  The president in Lebanon is Christian.  The Army commander is
Christian.  So what?  Why do you forget all other Arab countries and talk
only about Lebanon?  Aren't the presidents, Kings, and dictators of all other
Arab countries MUSLIMS.  Aren't all army chiefs of all other Arab countries
MUSLIMS.  Don't all Arab countries' constitution say that presidents, kings
and dictators should be MUSLIMS if they are to be leaders?
Why is that?  Is it that MUSLIMS are SMARTER than CHRISTIANS?  Don't CRISTIANS
have the same ability like MUSLIMS if not better (in my opinion, CHRISTIANS do
have a better one because at least they are open.  CHRISTIANS REALISE THAT THE
WORLD HAS CHANGED A LOT AND IT IS NO LONGER THE WAY IT WAS WHEN PROPHET MUHAM-
MAD WAS ALIVE.  YOU JUST CAN NOT RULE WITH THE SAME RULES THAT WERE APPLICABLE
HUNDREDS YEARS AGO.  At some point in history, Muslims were ahead of every one
in all sciences.  Algebra started from the mid-east, so did Medicine and
Geometry.  DON'T YOU EVER WONDER, MR. RACHED, WHY YOU ARE NOW BEHIND EVERY
ONE AFTER YOU WERE AHEAD OF THEM.  Don't you ever feel that you should work
harder to AT LEAST GET BACK TO WHERE YOU WERE.  WE ARE NOT TALKING GET AHEAD
OF THE REST, BUT JUST AT LEAST GET BACK WHAT YOU HAD HUNDREDS OF YEARS AGO.

--ONLY BY SO-DOING CAN YOU STOP OTHER BIG COUNTRIES AND BIG POWERS FROM
STEPPING ON YOU LIKE YOU NEVER EXIST.---


>destiny ? I guess Muslims and Christians in Lebanon messed up their destiny.
>
>> Islam has never and will never lead to unification
>> (sorry to disappoint you). People will unify when they have common goals and agendas,
>> not because they beleive in the same god and religion. You happen to live in a unified
>> country and I perceive that you are Muslim like many other people living in the UK.
>>
>
>History Mr. Faris .... History, please go and read History,
>How would you explain tribes fighting each other (like Al-Aous and Al-Khazraj of
>Madinah) and having those great wars between them (Like Dahis Wal Ghabraa) that

I TOLD YOU ONLY PRETEND FAMILARITY WITH HISTORY.  WAR DAHIS WAL GHABRAA WAS
BEFORE ISLAM.  IT WAS WHEN KURREISH HAD ALL THE POWER.  IT WAS WHEN THE POET
TARAFA IBN-ALABD WAS ALIVE AND THIS WAS WAY BEFORE ISLAM.  WAR DAHIS WAL
GHABRAA WAS  WHEN THEY USED TO WRITE POEMS ON THE WALL IN EL-KAABA.  THIS WAS
WAY BEFORE ISLAM.  WAR DAHIS WAL GHABRAA WAS WHEN PEOPLE USED TO GO TO
"SOUK OUKAZ" AND COMPETE IN POETRY.  THIS WAS WAY BEFORE ISLAM.
AGAIN, HISTORY, PLEASE...HISTORY.  MAYBE IT WILL BE A BETTER IDEA IF YOU
WASTED YOUR TIME IN UK DIGGING OUT FACTS AND LEARNING ABOUT HISTORY BEFORE
YOU DO ANY POSTING ON OUR NETWORK.   MAYBE IT WILL BE A BETTER IDEA IF YOU
WASTED YOUR TIME IN UK DIGGING OUT FACTS AND LEARNING ABOUT HISTORY OR ELSE
YOU WILL ALWAYS BE MAKING A FOOL OF YOURSELF.  SORRY, THIS IS THE TRUTH.
WHO SAID THE TRUTH DOES NOT HURT???????????????????????????????????????????
BUT RUNNING AWAY FROM THE TRUTH MIGHT EVEN HURT MORE!!(words from me to you
to live by.  I am sure you will be back thanking me for them).

I HAD BETTER QUIT NOW.  I HAVE A LOT MORE IMPORTANT THINGS TO DO BESIDE ARGUING
WITH PEOPLE WHO TALK NON-SENSE.  BECAUSE IF I WANTED TO GO ON WITH THE FACTS,
I WILL BE WRITTING FPR DAYS AND MONTHS IF NOT YEARS.


>killed many of them. How do you explain the transformation from such a state to a
>UNIFIED front that was able to defeat both superpowers of its time ?
>How do you explain centuries of Islamic UNIFICATION of the whole middle east ?
>According to History Mr. Faris, Muslims became not unified when they left their
>religion (Allah's Book and the Sunnah of his messenger).
>
>> The christains consider the Middle East as their home, as I do. To be honest with you,
>> if the christains were in political control, the Middle East will be in its GLORY.
>> People will not be treated as political "hotdogs" by western powers and Isreal.
>> Civilisation will be very technically and socially advanced as these people have proven
>> in the past.
>
>Yeah !
>that's why we have now all over the world SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE. Yep,
>Mr. Faris the middle east will be in its Glory just like when CHRISTIANS used to
>control Europe in the DARK AGES. Yep people will not be treated as political
>hotdogs but as political slaves, they will be offered paradise to go on a crusade

DARK AGES.  THAT IS RIGHT.  AT LEAST THESE DARK AGES HAVE PAID OFF.  WEST IS
FAR AHEAD OF YOU IN ANY FIELD.  I HOPE WHAT I'VE JUST  WRITTEN WILL DO YOU AND
BE ENOUGH TO MAKE YOU GO LOOK UP FACTS BEFORE YOU POST ANYTHING THE NEXT TIME.

                                                               LATER.

>to liberate Jerusalem and kill its inhabitants and make rivers of blood. They
>will be made to participate in the inquisition to wipe out any non-CHRISTIAN
>symbol (like what the spanish CHRISTIANS did to MUSLIMS AND JEWS). Yep
>Christianity has made sciences and technology very advanced, like killing the one
>that says that the earth is rotating around the sun.
>
>> Look at the Assyrians and Babylonians in your back yard, look at the
>> Pheonicians, look at the syrians in the north (Haleb, Ebla, etc), look at aramaic
>> people of damascus. They have built great civilisations that western powers are still
>> relying on to this day.
>
>Woops,
>Assyrians are christians ? Phoenicians are christians ?  Babylonians are
>christians ?
>O.K. well if you consider those christains then what can I say ??????
>
>>
>> To summarise your education lesson, christains are not to blame for the present
>> problems in the Middle East and did not spoil your effort to unify under Islam. I
>> beleive Islam or any religion with the exception of Judiasm is incapable of unifying
>> people. This is exactly how Jews meant it to be when they created Christianity and
>> Islam. You should read the epics of Gilgamish a famous Assyrian, study the recent
>> findings in the ancient city of Ebla in northern Syria, and read the codes of Hammurabi.
>>
>
>Woooooooops
>Jews created christianity and Islam ?
>Well Well Mr. Faris do you really consider yourself a christian ? How about any
>other christians ? Does this represent your thinking ? Is your religion the
>invention of JEWS ? Do you really beleive that Mr. Faris ? If I were in your
>place and I beleived that I would directly convert to Judaism since it seems in
>your opinion it is the only TRUE religion (all others are invented by JEWS).
>
>> A.Faris
>
>Mr. Faris (YOU SHOULD HAVE SAID MR RACHED HERE) is this a joke or do you
>really beleive what you wrote ?

>rached