From: sma@waikato.ac.nz (Stephen Anderson)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Christians are not Christians.a
Date: 6 Oct 92 02:51:52 GMT
Organization: University of Waikato, Hamilton, New Zealand

In article <5OCT199214542776@acad3.alaska.edu>, ksjwr@acad3.alaska.edu (REDELSS JOHN W) writes:
> To all foaming-at-the-mouth Mormon haters (You know who you are):
>
> So what if the Mormons are making an honest mistake?  Doesn't Jesus love them
> too?  If so, won't he straighten them out bye and bye?  How do we serve Him by
> fighting among ourselves?

So are you saying that if someone is straying from God, that we should just let
them go on sinning, saying that God will correct them in time anyway.  Doesn't
seem consistent with "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every
creature".  Also, Ezekial (I think) said that if someone sins, and you do not
correct them, then not only them but you will die for that sin.  

> 
> I am a Mormon that converted from the Baptist faith over thirty years ago.  I
> became a Mormon because I honestly believe that Jesus visited Joseph Smith in
> New York state when Joseph was fourteen years of age.  Sure, he may have been
> lying.  He may have been crazy.  He may have received a Satanic vision.  But I
> honestly don't think so.  I think he saw the Father and the Son and spoke to
> them.
> 
> In the New Testament the Savior says that to follow him, you have to follow
> whom he has sent.  Well he has sent Joseph Smith.  If we don't follow Joseph
> Smith, we aren't willing to follow the Savior.  If we refuse to follow the
> Savior, then we are not Christian.  Christians are the followers of Jesus
> Christ

It also says beware of the false prophet, and do not even let his
representatives into your house (II John 9).  There is NO evidence that Joseph
Smith is a prophet of God.  His accounts of what happened at the visitation
vary, and mention such impossibilities as seeing God (OT tells us that a person
that see God will die).  Also, the accounts at the beginning of the book of
Mormon supporting JS are hardly reliable parties, being from such entities as
brothers, brothers-in-law, father-in-law and so on. It seems somehow
convienient that the original writings had to be taken back so that they could
not be studied.  And personal references to JS reveal him as a quite
un-Christian person (vile of mouth and so forth), quite inconsistent with the
usual prophet who tends to be a reasonably godly man.  Even Paul was a model
Jew.

> Do you actually know for a fact that Joseph Smith did NOT speak to the Father
> and the Son?  Do you know for a fact that Joseph Smith was a fraud or a
> lunatic?  What if you're wrong?
> 
> Sure you have the Bible, but so do we.  How can you be certain that you don't
> misunderstand it?  Are you sure you understand it completely?
> 
> You think I'm wrong about Joseph Smith being a prophet sent by Jesus Christ. 
> Well, what of it.  If I am, it's an honest mistake.  The Savior will surely
> lovingly correct me somewhere along the line, won't he?
> 
> But what if you are wrong?  If you are wrong, you are fighting against the
> Savior.  That's not really a very good idea because you know whose side that
> puts you on, don't you?

I can't be 100% absolutely certain until death that I am right, just as neither
can you.  But surely if he would correct you if you were wrong then he would
correct me if I were wrong.  And maybe this is the forum for correction, i.e.
that one might be persuaded by other's arguments.  Remember that God performs
his miracles by many methods other than a bolt of lightning.

> 
> In your place I would be nice to Mormons just in case.  The Savior asked us to
> love each other in any case.  And he didn't say we should only love people who
> belong to our own church.
> 

Of course.  Jesus says to love all men.  Even sinners.  Even followers of
false prophets.  But that doesn't mean we have to become followers of false
prophets.

> [bunch of stuff that sounds like any christian.  But remember that the Bible
> tells us even Satan can appear to be an angel of light.  This doesn't mean that
> you are Satan - merely that sounding like a Christian, and even believing many
> of the same things, doesn't make you a Christian.]

> Jesus Christ is the center of my faith.  Joseph Smith means nothing to me
> except I believe that Jesus sent him.  The Book of Mormon means nothing to me
> except that it teaches me about Jesus even better than the Bible because it
> hasn't been translated by so many uninspired men.  My Mormon church means
> nothing to me except I believe that Jesus wants me to be a Mormon.
>
Strange that.  A teaching of the Mormon church seems to be that the Bible is
fallible and the BoM is not, and was right when it was translated.  Why then
does the latest edition proclaim itself to be the most correct ever.  How can
it be more correct than the perfect first version.  And why have there been
3920 changes to the book of Mormon since that 1st edition?
 
> When I was a Baptist, I believed in Jesus.  But my faith in Jesus has grown
> enormously since I became a Latter-day Saint.  The only reason I became a
> Mormon was because I felt that the Latter-day Saints were preaching Jesus
> better than any of the Protestant denominations.  And in thirty years I have
> not learned of anything in the LDS church to make me feel differently.

There are many more reasons to doubt the LDS church, but I will not list them
here.

> 
> The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints preaches Jesus better than any
> other church on earth.  That is why I love it so.

A dangerous statement, because there are many churches preaching Jesus very
well, and, in my observence, better than the LDS church.
I am not a Mormon Hater, but I do believe that Mormons have made an honest
mistake, and my love for all of them as Gods children leads me to disagree with
them and to pray that the Lord will help to correct them.  May Christ be with
you.


Stephen..