From: ds0007@buhao (Dale Skiba)
Subject: Re: The Woman Liberated
Organization: Medtronic, Inc.
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 13:41:40 GMT

Hi Chuck,  Thanks for answering my questions.  Here are my
comments on them.

maier@romulus (Chuck Maier) writes:
: In <1992Jul28.124750.29318@medtron.medtronic.com> ds0007@buhao (Dale Skiba) writes:
: 
: >Titus 2: 1-5  (Authorized King James)
: 
: >But speak thou the things which come sound doctrine:
: >That the aged men be sober, grave, temperate, sound 
: >in faith, in charity, in patience.  The aged women
: >likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh
: >holiness, not false accusers, not given to too much
: >wine, teachers of good things;  That they may teach
: >the young women to be sober, to love their husbands,
: >to love their children, To be discrete, chaste, keepers
: >at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the
: >word of God be not blasphemed.
: 
: >Now that we have looked at the "broader pastoral perspective",
: >we can clearly see that the Bible says it is OK for women to
: >teach.  However when we look more closely, it says thay women
: ^^^^^^^. 
: Correct.  So your silly remarks about women not teaching and not 
: speaking in church are wrong.

  I personally think it is silly to force women to be silent
  in church.  However, a literal interpretation of the following
  verses can allow me to say this. 
  
  I Corinthians 14:34,35 (NIV)

  women should remain silent in the churches.  They are not allowed 
  to speak. but must be in submission, as the Law says.  [...] 
  for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in church.

  I Timothy 3:12 (NIV)

  I do not permit a woman to teach or have authority over a man;
  she must be silent.

: 
: >may only teach other women.  It clearly states this.  It does
: >NOT say that women can teach men. 
: 
: That's right, God's chain of authority is Father - Son - man -
: woman - kids.  We shouldn't have women running churches and being
: the primary channels for bringing forth instruction and making 
: decisions. 

To me, this is another silly restriction on women.  Since 1941,
women have proven themselves capable of sucessfully doing many
things that involve making decisions and leadership.  I have had
several women managers in my career, and they were just as good as
my male managers.

: However,
: You will note that Priscilla was involved in instructing Apollos in the
: baptism of the HOly Spirit in Acts 19.  There is nothing wrong
: with a mature women of God instructing a less mature man in the
: body under the authority of another man. 

Chuck, I do not find Priscilla mentioned in Acts 19.  Priscilla is
mentioned in Acts 18:26. 

When Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they invited him to their home
and explained the way of God more adequately.

This is a relevant quote, and I thank you for finding it.  It is
something very similar to Sunday school, so I must modify my "literal"
translation what the Bible says about women teaching Sunday School.

Taking in to account the applicable verses (I Cor 14:35,35, I Tim
3:12, Titus 2:4-5, Acts 18:26) my literal conclusion is:

Women may teach Sunday school with the following restrictions:

(1) It must not be in the sanctuary.  If we take non-restrictive
    meaning of the word "church", I Corinthians will allow women
    to speak in non-sanctuary rooms of modern churches.

(2) If there are any males in the class, she can not be the
    primary instructor, she can only be an assistant.  This
    seems to resolve I Timothy and Acts.

Personally, this still seems to be too restrictive to me.  I have
been in Sunday Schools led by women, and they seem to do a fine
job.  But, so far, I have found nothing in the Bible that would
allow this if you try to follow it literally.

: The principle of male authority has meaning because that's the
: way the rules were set up in the beginning.  Same way with
: monogamous , lifetime marriage.  Obviously in our sinsick
: world, there are not always easy answers to implementing God's
: cosmic rules regarding human relationships.

Before this century, male authority was pretty much necessary
for survival.  Someone had to provide food (grow it or earn money
to buy it) and someone had to maintain the household.  Today's
timesaving household technology changes what used to be necessity.
It is now possible for women to have more authority, and many
women seem to be doing a good job with this new authority.  It
has been my experience that allowing women to have more authority
does not cause the world to be any more sinsick.

: Face it.  You're just using some fifth grade tactics to try to 
: justify your faith in evolution, for which there is not a single
: verse anywhere in the Bible. 

You are very close.  I am using the same fifth grade tactics
that fundamentalists use for the book of Genesis on the rest
of the Bible.  It does seem silly at times.

: If Jesus Christ , Paul and all
: the rest were that stupid and ignorant to write that life was
: created by divine fiat from dirt, when evolution was and is a
: sure fact of science that everyone has to believe, then what
: use is there for their views on marriage and male authority etc. .

This is where we really have a difference of opinion.  I do not
read the Bible as a Science textbook.  This does not seem to be
the proper context.  I have earnestly looked for good evidence
to support Creationism.  The more I look into this area, the more
I am convinced that evolution is the best availiable explanation
for all emperical evidence we have today.

--
Dale Skiba
Newsgroups: talk.origins