HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: enders@bolshoi.cc.misu.NoDak.edu (Todd Enders)
Subject: Re: 8' rockets..
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1992 03:07:18 GMT
Reply-To: enders@bolshoi.uucp
Organization: North Dakota Higher Education Computing Network

soc1070 writes

> About all the laws I could think of right off the top of my head would be
> those by the FAA, laws on handling chemicals (but rocket fuels are not
> regulated, i.e. O2, alcohol, kerosine, but some more exotic stuff might
> be), and anything the local or state fire marshall might have set up. I
> would think in North Dakota, or anywhere there is alot of unrestricted
> air space, minimal controls on fireworks, and few people it would'nt be
> that hard to get permission to fly a liquid fuel rocket. The real trick
> might be finging a piece of land from which to launch. There might be
> a federal (state) land use permit required, and most private land is
> farmed/ranched (at least in my example of ND). 
> 
     I suspect it would depend on the performance of the rocket in question.
A liquid fuel rocket in the large sounding rocket class probably couldn't be
launched from anywhere save NASA's test ranges or White Sands.  At any rate,
I suspect finding land is less of an issue than liability insurance.  (I'm
speaking of rockets capable of 100+ mi. max. alt. carrying several 100 kg.
payloads)

     Having said that, IMHO there's lots of room here in ND for high power or
small/medium sounding rocket launches.  I'm not aware of any state land use
permits (can't say about Federal permits, though).  I doubt there'd be any
problem as long as FAA requirements were satisfied and the research group was
adequately insured.  Getting permission from a landowner shouldn't be a hassle
if he/she is approached with tact.  Of course, one shouldn't launch such a
beast *too* near one of our many Minuteman silos.  Other people might not 
appreciate it! :-)

Todd



Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
From: buzz@rsd.dl.nec.com (Buzz McDermott)
Subject: Re: F100-4's
Organization: NEC America, Radio Software Dept
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 14:51:56 GMT

In article <uPZmwB1w165w@tsoft.net>, bbs.byron@tsoft.net (Byron Reynolds) writes:
|> What's a good "recommended" launch weight for a rocket powered by an
|> F100-4 Flight Systems motor?

After having had the opportunity to see a few FSI motors being used at a 
recent DARS launch, my recommendation is that launch weight is irrelevent.  
The odds are the motor will CATO and destroy the rocket on the pad, anyway :-) 
(or :-( ).

When I was flying in my previous life as a rocketeer (a couple of decades ago)
FSI motors were very highly sought after and seemed more reliable than even
small Estes motors.  The choices for 'E' and 'F' motors was between Centuri
'MiniMax' and FSI.  The people flying in Fort Worth, Texas, at the time all
seemed to prefer FSI.  That no longer seems to be the case.  Has something
happended that FSI motors are much less reliable than years gone by?  
Am I wrong about that?  Since FSI motors are relatively big and use black powder
fuel do they suffer from the same temp cycling problems as Estes D motors?

I also haven't seen a motor certification list in AmSpam, recently.  Are FSI
motors NAR certified?  Are they contest certified?

================================================================================
= Buzz McDermott                Disclaimer: I speak for no one but myself, and =
= buzz@rsd.dl.nec.com                       anyone who listens to anything I   =
= NAR   13559                               have to say deserves whatever they =
= TRA    1785                               get!!                              =
================================================================================
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
From: billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson)
Subject: Re: 8' rockets..
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 07:24:20 GMT

Roger.Wilfong@umich.edu (Roger Wilfong) writes:
:  
: There is an organization the a Tripoli member, Tom Blazin (sp?), was trying 
: to start.  It is called 'The Black Rock Society' and is dedicated to 
: 'serious' (no big talkers allowed!) rocket development.  Again, I'll try and 
: find the address.

The address is:   Black Rock Society
                  PO Box 141
                  Gerlach, NV  89412-0141

Write Tom, at the above address. He may be able to point you in the right
direction. According to him, there are a number of groups interested in, and
working on, non-professional rockets.

Bill
From: paul@taniwha.UUCP (Paul Campbell)
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
Subject: Re: Other reloadables besides Aerotech? (Re: Info. about solid rocket-
Date: 22 Dec 92 01:55:45 GMT
Organization: Taniwha Systems Design

In article <1992Dec16.175138.25507@rsd0.rsd.dl.nec.com> buzz@rsd.dl.nec.com (Buzz McDermott) writes:
>Well, rocketeers, it's time to get back to work on your clustering skills!
>With the current availability of G motors for $7/ea and under, a 3xG cluster
>is a cost effective way to get in the equivalent of a 38/360 reload flight.

Yeah, the guy who always seems to fly 'zillion clustered Ds (Bill Joe?)
obviously has the right idea - of course if we all start flying our
Magnums and Bruisers (that's what he flies) with 50-100 Estes Ds in the
back end each wired with a flashbulb as he does then pretty soon we'll
have a massive nationwide flashbulb shortage :-)

	Paul

-- 
Paul Campbell    UUCP: ..!mtxinu!taniwha!paul     AppleLink: CAMPBELL.P
Use up your Quayle jokes now while they're still good "Quayle for Pres. in '94"
     Q: Why is Marilyn Quayle like Marion Barry?
     A: They both suck a little dope.
From: george@agora.rain.com (George Rachor)
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
Subject: Re: Estes Cineroc
Date: 3 Jan 93 22:33:44 GMT
Article-I.D.: agora.C0Auo9.J76
Organization: Open Communications Forum

jack@rml.UUCP (jack hagerty) writes:

>P.S. You *do* realize the risk you're taking with a reasonably
>valuable piece of historical equipment, don't you? A functioning
>Cineroc is getting rare.

>=============================================================================
>||Jack Hagerty, Robotic Midwives, Ltd.                 jack@rml.com        ||

I have wondered about that in the last few years.  I've got a functional
Cineroc and don't really intend to part with it but exactly what might they
be worth now?
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
From: jackson@sn.jsc.nasa.gov
Subject: Re: 8' rockets..
Reply-To: jackson@sn.jsc.nasa.gov
Organization: Organization, City, State, etc.
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 10:05:04 GMT


>>:
>>: There is an organization the a Tripoli member, Tom Blazin (sp?), was trying
>>: to start.  It is called 'The Black Rock Society' and is dedicated to
>>: 'serious' (no big talkers allowed!) rocket development.  Again, I'll try and
>>: find the address.
>>
>>The address is:   Black Rock Society
>>                  PO Box 141
>>                  Gerlach, NV  89412-0141
>>
>>Write Tom, at the above address. He may be able to point you........
>
>Thanks a lot!  Now this could prove to be very interesting.  Heck,
>I might even get to see the rocket fly next time if it's not launched
>oversea..
.......................................

One may also contact 
Pacific Rocket Society
Dept T 1825 N. Oxnard Blvd
Suite 24
Oxnard, CA
93030

The sell some books on liqid rockets which are interesting, and
have a newsletter supposedly tho that may be ripoff because I
sent them money for one and never got it. But they will send
you the books.

You likely ought to subscribe to High Power Rocketry to find out
more:
$25 / year
P.O. Box 96
Orem, UT
84059-0096
USA
...................
From: cdt@sw.stratus.com (C. D. Tavares)
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
Subject: Re: Other reloadables besides Aerotech? (Re: Info. about solid rocket-
Date: 22 Dec 1992 22:17:22 GMT
Organization: Stratus Computer, Inc.
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: rocket.sw.stratus.com

In article <1992Dec22.201612.9214@rsd0.rsd.dl.nec.com>, buzz@rsd.dl.nec.com (Buzz McDermott) writes:

> Is there any way to NOT include the delay element in the motor?  
> Am I missing something?  Is there a way to exclude the delay grain if you're
> using electronic timers, etc.?  Should I just leave in the delay grain, 
> whatever length it is, and not worry about it?

I'm certainly not going to get in the position of telling you to modify
engines in a way that the manufacturer doesn't support.  You need to take
this up with the manufacturer.  Anything else is bad advice.
-- 

cdt@rocket.sw.stratus.com   --If you believe that I speak for my company,
OR cdt@vos.stratus.com        write today for my special Investors' Packet...

Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
From: 161685732@vill.edu (JOE PRYSZLAK)
Subject: high power rocket launcher
Organization: Villanova University
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 15:35:00 GMT

I recently bought an Aerotech model rocket kit (the Initiator to be exact) and
I would like to build my own launcher for the thing, since Aerotech charges
a bit too much for theirs.  Does anyone have any plans for a good rocket
launcher for E-G engine rockets?? 
Organization: Villanova University
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.4-b1  

Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
From: Roger.Wilfong@umich.edu  (Roger Wilfong)
Subject: Re: 8' rockets..
Organization: UofM Hospitals
X-Newsreader: FTPNuz (DOS) v1.0
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 23:42:00 GMT

In Article <1992Dec22.172713.19553@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com> "billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson)" says:
> CT80@music.mus.polymtl.ca (Steph) writes:
> : 
> : We are a Montreal-based amateur club building experimental rockets.
> : Our first one was 16kg, just over 5'.  We are currently working on
> : a second one which should reach around 26kg, 8', complete with its
> : own inboard computer and all the hooplas.  The problem is this :
> : the only clubs that we _know_ of that also make these kind of rockets
> : are in Europe.  Last year we had to fly oversea just to launch our
> : rocket (using a French booster, too).  Problem is this : it's not
> : very practical for us, and *I* couldn't go cuz the travel fares were
> : way too steep for me.  So I'm looking for people, addresses, anything,
> : anyone..  there has to be other clubs like us in North America!  If
> : you know of a place, if the place is you, or if you know there is
> : another, better suited newsgroup than this one, please let me know.
> 
> It sounds like you are going far beyond model rocketry and High Power
> Rocketry.  If so, then you will have a difficult time finding kindred
> souls. There are one or two universities that have student projects
> using liquid fuels or rockets constructed out of metal. I do not recall
> which schools they are, however.
> 
> Getting a license to experiment with such rockets in the US is extremely
> difficult.
> 
 
You're in Montreal.  Last time I looked Montreal was still part of Canada 
(at least it isn't part of the US) so you might look up the CAR.  The CAR 
operates a little differently from either NAR or Tripoli, and might be able 
to help you.  Unfortunately, CAR seems to be an on-again off-again operation 
largely based on the support they get from members and the government.
The three people I can think of to point you at are all in the Toronto area.  
They are Fritz Gnass, Taras Tarataran, and Peter ???.  I know that 
Taras lives in Mississauga.  I try and find their addresses and E-mail you. 
 
There is a club out in California that was featured in the Air & Space 
Smithsonian magazine about a year ago.
 
There is an organization the a Tripoli member, Tom Blazin (sp?), was trying 
to start.  It is called 'The Black Rock Society' and is dedicated to 
'serious' (no big talkers allowed!) rocket development.  Again, I'll try and 
find the address.
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
From: buzz@rsd.dl.nec.com (Buzz McDermott)
Subject: Re: Other reloadables besides Aerotech? (Re: Info. about solid rocket-
Organization: NEC America, Radio Software Dept
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 21:04:47 GMT

In article <BzM7KL.7Iu@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>, ntaib@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Iskandar Taib) writes:
|>
|> How does the delay and ejection charge fit on the RMS motors? (The 
|> Phoenix motor doesn't have one of course...)
|> 

In Aerotech and ISP RMS motors the ejection charge is a small amount of black
powder which is poured in an opening in the "front" of the motor.  The
delay grain and some O-rings prevent the charge from getting into the rest
of the motor.  The opening is covered with a piece of tape or a small paper
disk which comes with the reload (and has the reload type and delay typed
on it) or, in the case of Aerotech motors, a small plastic cap covers the 
opening.

================================================================================
= Buzz McDermott                Disclaimer: I speak for no one but myself, and =
= buzz@rsd.dl.nec.com                       anyone who listens to anything I   =
= NAR   13559                               have to say deserves whatever they =
= TRA    1785                               get!!                              =
================================================================================
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
From: Roger.Wilfong@umich.edu  (Roger Wilfong)
Subject: Re: Hello and finless tec
Organization: UofM Hospitals
X-Newsreader: FTPNuz (DOS) v1.0
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 11:38:00 GMT

In Article <1gtmvmINNeql@transfer.stratus.com> "cdt@sw.stratus.com (C. D. Tavares)" says:
> In article <1345@taniwha.UUCP>, paul@taniwha.UUCP (Paul Campbell) writes:
> 
> > - CDT> I've always though of doing a scale model of a WESTAR launched
> > -    > from a spin table.  Of course you could get mission points for the WESTAR
> > -    > if you didn't ignite the motor. :-)
> 
> Anybody who knows me knows this is a ridiculous attribution.  Me?  Scale?
 
Of course it is.  The above came from me.  Anybody who knows me, knows I 
think of a lot of strange things - some I actually try and get working.
 
- Roger
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
From: 161685732@vill.edu (JOE PRYSZLAK)
Subject: Re: hot glue
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.4-b1  
Organization: Villanova University
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 22:26:00 GMT

In article <1hq68oINNdh5@transfer.stratus.com>, cdt@sw.stratus.com (C. D. Tavares) writes...
>In article <23DEC199220462000@vill.edu>, 161685732@vill.edu (JOE PRYSZLAK) writes:
>> I recently had to buy a hot-glue gun to fix my macintosh.  I wanted to know,
>> since I now own the thing, how good is hot glue at hoding balsa fins onto
>> paper body tubes?
> 
>Bloody awful.  First, it tends to make a gloppy mess, and even if it
>doesn't, the glue is much too flexible after it sets.  Second, engines
>usually get hotter than your hot glue gun, and your fins simply fall 
>off in mid-flight.
>-- 
> 
>cdt@rocket.sw.stratus.com   --If you believe that I speak for my company,
>OR cdt@vos.stratus.com        write today for my special Investors' Packet...
Sounds horrible to me!  Fins falling off in mid flight.  Well, I'll remember
to use something else.

Another question, does anyone besides the old CMR sell fin jigs?
From: cdt@sw.stratus.com (C. D. Tavares)
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
Subject: Re: hot glue
Date: 31 Dec 1992 21:21:17 GMT
Organization: Stratus Computer, Inc.
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: rocket.sw.stratus.com

In article <1hvn2iINN417@transfer.stratus.com>, det@bigbootay.sw.stratus.com (David Toland) writes:
> BTW, I learned this from cdt, who's
> done far more model rocketry than I, and I measure my experience
> in decades.  If he says a construction method doesn't work well,
> I believe him!  His models don't come apart very often, and
> when they do, it's generally not at the glue joints, rather the
> structural materials (fin stock, body tubes, etc.) give way.

Usually at the interface between the atmosphere and the asphalt.
-- 

cdt@rocket.sw.stratus.com   --If you believe that I speak for my company,
OR cdt@vos.stratus.com        write today for my special Investors' Packet...
From: CT80@music.mus.polymtl.ca (Steph)
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
Subject: Re: 8' rockets..
Date: 24 Dec 92 19:12:09 GMT
Organization: Ecole Polytechnique de Montreal

In article <1992Dec24.174616.23127@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com> billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson) writes:
>CT80@music.mus.polymtl.ca (Steph) writes:
>: >
>: One thing though : we are not experimenting with propellers.  Last
>: time we use a professional French rocket propeller.  We are headed
>: to use the same line of engine (although we might take a stronger
>: one, :)).  It amazes me that there doesn't seem to be any made in
>: North America.
>
>Does this mean that you are working with manufactured engines and
>propellants? Are the engines solid, liquid or hybrid fueled? Are
>you experimenting with staging concepts - or are your only interests
>in carrying scientific payloads?
>
>Bill

Yup, we used a manufactured motor the last time around, and we
are most likely doing the same thing now.  I don't have the specs
of the different type of engines with me, all I recall of it is that
it was solid-fuel ("propergol" in French; don't know if it's a
direct translation of not), and came out to around $1000 apiece.
It was donated to us by the French Space Agency.  How could we
refuse?

We didn't experiment with the staging concept.  First we want to
build a reliable parachute ejection system as well as a dependant,
expandable inboard computer system.  Once that is done, we will
most likely include funkier scientific experiments, staging and
picture-taking.


Steph.
Who needs a .sig?
From: CT80@music.mus.polymtl.ca (Steph)
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
Subject: Re: 8' rockets..
Date: 23 Dec 92 18:17:07 GMT
Organization: Ecole Polytechnique de Montreal

In article <1992Dec22.172713.19553@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com> billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson) writes:
>CT80@music.mus.polymtl.ca (Steph) writes:
>:
>
[ my stuff deleted ]
>It sounds like you are going far beyond model rocketry and High Power
>Rocketry.  If so, then you will have a difficult time finding kindred
>souls. There are one or two universities that have student projects
>using liquid fuels or rockets constructed out of metal. I do not recall
>which schools they are, however.
>
>Getting a license to experiment with such rockets in the US is extremely
>difficult.
>
>Bill
>.
>.
Well, for one thing, as has been mentioned by now, I'm in Quebec,
Canada.  The laws should be just about similar, but there might be
one or two differences.  We already have the site (military base),
we are just looking for other clubs like us.  Maybe I should type
out some blurb about us and upload it.

One thing though : we are not experimenting with propellers.  Last
time we use a professional French rocket propeller.  We are headed
to use the same line of engine (although we might take a stronger
one, :)).  It amazes me that there doesn't seem to be any made in
North America.


Steph.
Who needs a .sig?
From: jack@rml.UUCP (jack hagerty)
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
Subject: Re: Ques. @ the new CamRoc from Estes
Date: 31 Dec 92 19:00:16 GMT
Article-I.D.: rml.612
Reply-To: jack@rml.UUCP (jack hagerty)
Organization: Robotic Midwives, Ltd.

In article <1992Dec31.023158.10071@uva386.schools.virginia.edu> wayne@uva386.schools.virginia.edu (Tony Wayne) writes:
>I just got my "Holiday" issue of AmSpac and saw that Estes was
>bringing back the CamRoc.  Does anybody know if it will shoot
>on picture per flight or run through the roll?

As near as I can tell, it's the exact same Astrocam (note, not CamRoc)
that we've all known and loved over the past decade or so. The AmSpam
note just says that they're "reintroducing an old favorite." I suspect
that it's just popular demand. The thing is simple, relatively cheap,
and works tolerably well for the unskilled (it is, after all, a
"Level 1" kit).

- Jack

=============================================================================
||Jack Hagerty, Robotic Midwives, Ltd.                 jack@rml.com        ||
||Livermore, CA		           NOTE! New, improved address! ^^^        ||
||(510) 455-1143	            (old ones will still work)             ||
||-------------------------------------------------------------------------||
||          " 'Tis a coward I am, but I'll hold your coat"                 ||
||                  - Barry Fitzgerald, _How Green Was My Valley_          ||
=============================================================================
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
From: 161685732@vill.edu (JOE PRYSZLAK)
Subject: Centuri book
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.4-b1  
Organization: Villanova University
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 21:45:00 GMT

When I was a younger lad, I had this book from Centuri that was just filled
with plans for model rockets, from Sputnik, to all sort of multi-stage and
cluster models.  It also had some technical info.  Does anyone possibly
still have a copy of this book, so I can get a copy.  Also, anyplace I can
get a hold of old Centuri Technical Notes?
From: buzz@rsd.dl.nec.com (Buzz McDermott)
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
Subject: Re: Other reloadables besides Aerotech? (Re: Info. about solid rocket-
Date: 22 Dec 92 20:16:12 GMT
Organization: NEC America, Radio Software Dept

In article <1h7ndtINNhnd@transfer.stratus.com>, cdt@sw.stratus.com (C. D. Tavares) writes:
|> In article <19921221181458.Roger.Wilfong@umich.edu>, Roger.Wilfong@umich.edu (Roger Wilfong) writes:
|> 
|> > 1)  In the Aerotech RMS motors, the part of the case that gets the hottest 
|> >   is around the delay element.
|> 
|> In general this is true of ALL motors S&T tests, including cardboard motors.
|> 
|> > 3)  Since the Phoenix motor is only F and G rated, it is probably dealing 
|> >   with lower pressures than a high power motor.  A reload with a time/thrust 
|> >   profile of an I-65 might very well heat the case to an unacceptable 
|> >   temperature.  
|> 
|> Doubtful.  The external casing temperature is affected MOST by the delay
|> charge, and peaks ten to fifteen seconds AFTER ejection.

OK.  The motor casing temp is most affected by the delay element.  So what I 
want to do is use an electronic timer and separate ejection system for my 
HPR rocket.  I'm using RMS type motors.  I'd just as soon the motors be as cool
as possible. Is there any way to NOT include the delay element in the motor?  
My initial feeling is that there has to be SOMETHING where the delay element 
sits.  Otherwise I have this hole in the front of my motor, where the 
ejection charge would have been.  Since delay grains are available separately,
I'd thought I might get a batch of short delays, with spacers, and use those.
I assume that a short delay would heat the casing less than a long delay????

Am I missing something?  Is there a way to exclude the delay grain if you're
using electronic timers, etc.?  Should I just leave in the delay grain, 
whatever length it is, and not worry about it?

================================================================================
= Buzz McDermott                Disclaimer: I speak for no one but myself, and =
= buzz@rsd.dl.nec.com                       anyone who listens to anything I   =
= NAR   13559                               have to say deserves whatever they =
= TRA    1785                               get!!                              =
================================================================================