HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: lmeier@well.sf.ca.us (Lyle Meier)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
Subject: Re: Jets and short fields
Date: 22 Aug 92 00:26:19 GMT
Organization: Whole Earth 'Lectronic Link

In article <2510475@hplvec.LVLD.HP.COM> wjb@hplvec.LVLD.HP.COM (Bill Buse) writes:
>In rec.aviation, cessna@kn5f.jsc.nasa.gov (Mark Taylor Evert) writes:
> > I need to double-check, but I beleive that the main runway on Maui is 
> > under 5000' long (maybe only 4000') and 737's are routinely operated off 
> > of it by Hawaiin Airlines.
>
>About 14 years ago when I flew into St. Thomas on an Eastern Airlines 727,
>the runway there was under 5000' (seems like 4500' if I remember correctly).
>To make things worse, the ocean was at one end of the runway and a hill was
>at the opposite end.  At that time, the St. Thomas airport was rated by the 
>ALPA as the most dangerous (or unsafe) commercial airport.  
>
>Bill Buse
>wjb@hpisla.lvld.hp.com 

This last may I flew into St Thomas, it still has a  5000' runway, with
a new 7000' runway under construction and supposed to be finished this fall.

American is flying  AB300's in there and its quite a ride getting out.
Note that they don't add fuel in St. Thomas, but fly the 30 miles to 
St. Croix to get fuel. St Croix has a 10,000' runway, but in addition 
I suspect that the Hess Oil Refinery on St. Croix make fuel cheaper anyway.
Currently everyone but Delta does STT STX, while Delta does STT SJU 
(Thats only about 75 mi also.).
From: jorge@tfs.com (I shall return)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
Subject: Re: IEEE insurance
Date: 17 Aug 92 19:00:23 GMT
Organization: TRW Financial Systems

Thank you for posting this.  I have contacted IEEE's 1-800-648-IEEE number
and the application is on the way to my home as I type this.
From: ron@pilot.njin.net (Ron Natalie)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
Subject: Re: Oshkosh VFR arrival closures.
Keywords: Oshkosh
Date: 14 Aug 92 14:43:15 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

> When you make an IFR reservation to OSH do they reserve a parking spot
> for you?

No.  They just park planes until full and then turn people away.  A
large number of the IFR reservations go unused anyhow, so it's
probably not a bad thing (we had one, and since it was severe VFR
we dallied a bit at our lunch spot and missed it entirerly).  It seems
to be pretty low tech, too.  We were up in the tower when they filled
up and someone just calls up to the tower and tells them.  I fairly
sure this was spelled out in the advance information I got.
From: joero@microsoft.com (Joe Robison)
Subject: Re: soaring near Seattle?
Date: 20 Aug 92 09:00:25 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corp.

In article <Bt53Cu.7rH@math.uwaterloo.ca> gamiddle@math.uwaterloo.ca wrote:
> Are there any glider operations within about 2 hours drive of Seattle?
> Thanks...

Yep, Evergreen Soaring is based in Arlington, about 45 minutes on I-5
north of Seattle.  Arlington is the home of Stoddard Hamilton (maker
of the Glassair), and just north of Paine Field in Everett where some
big company assembles those jumbo things in some really big buildings.

Evergreen is a club with a 2-33, a two-place Lark, a 1-26, and two 1-36s.
We fly every weekend, weather permitting.  Arlington has decent soaring,
though not great (too much marine air most of the time).  In the summer
we go 3 hours east on I-90, over the Cascade mountains, and fly at
Ephrata, in the desert, where the soaring is outstanding.

I can give you more details via email or a follow-up post (I don't have
any contact phone numbers or anything handy). Or just wander out to
Arlington on any weekend.

Joe Robison
joero@microsoft.com
From: ron@pilot.njin.net (Ron Natalie)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
Subject: Re: MD88 ice detectors
Date: 12 Aug 92 14:08:59 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

It is very important to check for ice on DC-9's/MD80's.  Evidentally,
any ice that forms on the wings are likely to come off and then be
ingested in the engines.  Due to the fuel tanks, a plane can come in
and land and have water condense on the cold fuel tanks and freeze
even on days well above freezing.  If this stuff comes loose it will
gag the engines.

-Ron
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
From: popovich@cs.columbia.edu (Steve Popovich)
Subject: Re: Second Solo - and a question
Organization: Columbia University
	<1992Aug11.171903.7428@peck.com> <1992Aug11.211050.9257@tss.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 17:03:48 GMT

In article <1992Aug11.211050.9257@tss.com>, burke@tss.com (Jim Burke) writes:

>I don't see a compelling reason to go through all this just because the
>tower has another plane ready for takeoff on an intersecting runway.

In the original article on this thread, <5356@transfer.stratus.com>,
johng@swshukokai.cac.stratus.com (John Grayson) wrote:

>The second solo was much the same for the first 3 T&Gs. However, that evening
>2 intersecting runways were active. At PVD the jets prefer to use 5R which
>7166' as opposed to 34 which is 6081'. I did my third T&G on 34 and the tower

Was this another T&G?  If so, I'm a little surprised that PVD gave you
more than 3 T&G's with this much jet traffic around.  At FRG, where I
was flying until I ran out of money, they will only give you 3 or 4
T&G's if it's at all busy, and if they have people backed up like
this, they probably won't give you any at all.  At the nearby ARSA
airport, ISP, it seemed they would hardly give you T&G's at all.  If
it wasn't a T&G, then I don't see why they didn't just instruct you to
turn off short of the intersecting runway.  At FRG, we have two
runways that are both about 6000' long, and sometimes also can be
simultaneously active, depending on wind and traffic conditions.  Both
FRG's and PVD's runways are MONSTER runways as far as little Cessnas
like the 152 and 172 are concerned.  So when the tower had departing
traffic on the other runway as we were coming in to land, they would
simply direct us to land short and avoid crossing the other runway.
Landing on an effectively 3000' runway at basically sea level in a
Skyhawk should be easy enough for any solo student, shouldn't it?  Do
PVD's runways have a configuration that makes this impossible, or has
there been an FAA rule change in the last year or two that made this
practice illegal?
From: yurkon@rudolf.nscl.msu.edu (John Yurkon)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
Subject: Re: DUATS question
Date: 12 Aug 92 17:42:21 GMT
Reply-To: yurkon@rudolf.nscl.msu.edu (John Yurkon)
Organization: National Superconducting Cyclotron Laboratory

In article <Aug.9.12.03.23.1992.22680@pilot.njin.net>,
ron@pilot.njin.net (Ron Natalie) writes:
> Path:
>
msuinfo!caen!sdd.hp.com!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cis.ohio-state.edu!rut
tgers!dziuxsolim.rutgers.edu!pilot.njin.net!ron
> From: ron@pilot.njin.net (Ron Natalie)
> Newsgroups: rec.aviation
> Subject: Re: DUATS question
> Message-ID: <Aug.9.12.03.23.1992.22680@pilot.njin.net>
> Date: 9 Aug 92 16:03:23 GMT
> References: <BsnB7M.BIH@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>
> Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.
> Lines: 14
> 
> > This may be a FAQ, but could someone please send me info on how
> > to sign up for DUATS? I'm currently a student pilot.
> 
> You can sign up on line.  I use telnet to "duat.contel.com" but
>...

I don't know if there is a separate phone number, but for Telnet I
believe students should use duats.contel.com [131.131.7.106]

	John
From: dfr@usna.navy.mil (PROF D. Rogers (EAS FAC))
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
Subject: Re: Northern Canada trip report
Keywords: Canada, trip, IFR horror
Date: 15 Aug 92 14:03:14 GMT
Organization: U. S. Naval Academy, Annapolis, MD

In article <1992Aug14.182424.16891@xn.ll.mit.edu> olsen@xn.ll.mit.edu writes:
!In article <2007@usna.NAVY.MIL! dfr@usna.navy.mil (PROF D. Rogers (EAS FAC)) writes:
!!There is now no customs at Houlton and after calling Sept-Isle in Canada
!!Bill concluded that there was no customs on a Sunday in Canada.

!Well, you actually could have jogged over to Quebec City (not too far out of
!the way).  According to the Flight Supplement, they have customs every day.

Bill didn't think of that or didn't want too and after a 5+ hour IFR
flight I was not too interested so didn't push it.

!!Pull out the IAP's. Oh no, again 1990 two years out-of-date!
!
!I recall seeing somewhere that, in a situation like this, you can ask
!the controller to read you the entire approach procedure (in text
!form) over the radio.  Can someone confirm or deny this?

This is true. However, after all the cross checking I was reasonably
sure we were ok and frankly didn't think of it. Good point

![Thanks for the report.  Too bad you couldn't make it to Grise Fiord!]

Next year or maybe Alaska. Actually Bill is talking about Siberia!
BTW this guy is 85 years old. Amazing.

Dave Rogers

Newsgroups: rec.aviation
From: Mark Milbourne <milbouma@esvax.dnet.dupont.com>
Subject: Why not a bi-winged sailplane??
X-Xxdate: Tue, 18 Aug 92 12:48:17 GMT
Organization: DuPont CR&D/Scientific Computing Div
X-Useragent: Nuntius v1.1.1d7
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 16:44:24 GMT

What are the advantages and disadvantages, aerodynamically, of a bi-wing
vs. a single-wing design.

The higher performance sailplanes have the longest wingspans (obviously)
while the aerobatic sailplanes have shorter spans and somewhat lower
performance (glide ratio).   I assume the shorter span (and thus lower
glide ratio) is due to 
(1) structual considerations to handle higher G load and 
(2) to make the sailplane easier to roll.

I have been wondering if a bi-winged design would be feasable for a
sailplane.   Since it's possible to build sailplanes with such long wings
and no external struts, it would certainly be possible to build a
bi-winged sailplane (bi-plane glider, bi-glider??) with no extra struts,
wiring or other bracing between the wings so the ship would still be very
"clean" aerodynamically.

So with a bi-winged glider you could have more wing area (thus better
glide ratio - hopefully  in the 40+ range) which would still be fully
aerobatic.

Adequate separation of wings might be a problem, since modern sailplanes
typically have minimal fusealage height.  The low wing would probably
have to be at the bottom of the fuse rather than middle or high as is
typical.  This in turn would make for ground clearance problems since the
fuse almost sits on the ground already.  Gear would have to extend
further from the fuse than normal so you wouldn't have to worry too much
about dragging a wing on the ground on take off or landing.  Of course
the shorter span would minimize this problem some.

Either that or the high wing might have to be mounted higher than the top
of the fuse to have adequate vertical separation of the wings.

Maybe something like this:
             ___________
________________  |  ________________
                \_|_/
                /   \
________________|   |________________
                \___/
                  U

Or this:

              ___________
                   |
\__________________|__________________/
                 /   \
                 |   |
\________________\___/________________/
                  | |
                   O

I am assuming a "T" tail - maybe a conventional tail as better here?
Winglets necessary to minimize wingtip vortex drag.

I know very little about aerodynamics and aircraft design so I would be
interested in any comments that those more knowlegeable would care to
offer.

This is just an idea thats been spinning around in my head.  I doubt I'd
ever have the time or resources to build one even if it I was guarranteed
it would be an excellent ship.
--
From: bill@churchill.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM (William.Johnson)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
Subject: Re: Noisy Schweizer release
Keywords: gliding
Date: 14 Aug 92 12:57:17 GMT
Organization: NCR Corp


This soft release procedure is standard at some fields I've used, but is
not used at all at others.

Bill Johnson   PP-Glider
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
From: geoff@peck.com (Geoff Peck)
Subject: Re: Heard on the air (was: "remain clear of the ARSA...")
Organization: Geoffrey G. Peck, Consultant, San Jose CA
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 07:33:43 GMT

On a few occasions, I've heard something to the effect of:

    Airliner>  "Good Morning, Galactic Approach, MegaAirlines, er, ..., um,
                ... what flight number are we today anyway?"
    Approach>  (chuckling) "You're MegaAirlines 432 today, good morning,
	       turn right heading ..."

On even more occasions, I've heard the controller and the pilot having a
debate about (a) what flight number the flight is, (b) where the flight is
going, and/or (c) what the name of the airline is this week!  (I kid you
not.)  The all-time silly in the last category went something like this:

    Approach>  "Delta 432 turn left heading 240."
    (silence)
    Approach>  "Delta 432 turn left heading 240."
    (silence)
    Approach>  "Delta 432, Stockton."
    (silence)
    Approach>  "Delta 432, Stockton, how do you hear this radio?"
    (silence)
    Approach>  (shouting) "DELTA 4 3 2, STOCKTON!"
    (silence)
    Approach>  "Western 432, Stockton Approach"
    432>       "Go ahead, Western 432"
    Approach>  "Um, DELTA 432, I've been trying to call you for
		the last five minutes.  Maybe you should look at
		your paychecks -- they say DELTA, not Western,
		you know.  Now, please turn left heading 260."

No kidding.  I heard it myself...

						Geoff
From: dsnyder@falcon.aamrl.wpafb.af.mil
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
Subject: HATZ CB-1 biplane info?
Date: 17 Aug 92 13:30:18 EST
Organization: USAF AL/CFH, WPAFB, Dayton, OH


  Does anyone have any information on the HATZ CB-1 biplane?  This
  is the plane I would consider building.  It has good looks and is
  economical to fly.  I'm trying to find the source of plans/kits
  or a partially completed project.  Thanks. David -- 

---------------------------------------------------------------------
David B. Snyder                     Logicon Technical Services Inc.
dsnyder@falcon.aamrl.wpafb.af.mil   Wright-Patterson Air Force Base
513-255-7557                        Dayton, Ohio USA
---------------------------------------------------------------------
It is said that GOD doesn't subtract from ones' time on earth, those
hours spent flying.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
1946 Cessna 140 N76234 "The lady in waiting" Owner/Operator
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Opinions expressed are my own and not those of Logicon or the USAF.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
From: jimm@simsol.UUCP (Jim Morris)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
Subject: Re: IFR/Semi-Auto Horror, Aerobatics, & maybe some other stuff
Date: 16 Aug 92 19:14:40 GMT
Article-I.D.: simsol.173
Organization: Systems Simulation Solutions, Beaverton, OR

In article <19920814.132639.414@almaden.ibm.com>, martinl@torolab6.VNET.IBM.COM writes:
> two. Personally, I have not had any problems taking my handguns back and
> forth over the border (with the correct paperwork), but I have heard some

Handguns? in Canada?  I know this is not rec.guns, but I am a little mystified.

I thought handguns were outlawed for everybody in Canada (except police).
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
From: carlson@linac.fnal.gov (Kermit Carlson)
Subject: Re: Locked on the Controls (was GLiding instruction)
Organization: Fermilab, Batavia, IL
 <1992Aug20.173928.18668@col.hp.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 18:33:57 GMT

>>(Mike Cohler) writes:
>>...the pupil froze on the controls and the instructor was unable
>>to over-ride the locked out air brakes.
>>... what YOU have done or would do to prevent
>>the same thing occuring again ?

>reece@eco.twg.com (Reece R. Pollack) writes:
>> I'm told the solution is for the instructor to carry a large multicell
>> flashlight like a MagLite.

>I wonder if a touch of mace would be justifyable in a life/death situation.
>Might manage to get the frozen pilot's hands off the controls while they
>rubbed their eyes?

    I hope that I never have to findout what the most effective method
really is to unlock a student from the controls.....But, the person
who signed off my endorsement to take the CFI ride suggested covering
a person's eyes or hitting above their knee. When I asked if it worked
for him he told me that the worst  he had encountered was in an AT-6
during his days as an Army instructor, with no option but to wrestle
the stick.... maybe that MAGLITE flashlight idea isnt so far off the
mark...
     Any other thoughts or experiences?
                                                   Kermit  
                                                   Cessna N51411

Newsgroups: rec.aviation
From: brent@telebit.com (Brent Chapman)
Subject: Re: DME Answers
Organization: Telebit Corporation; Sunnyvale, CA, USA
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1992 21:11:40 GMT

BCLEWIS@LSTC2VM.stortek.com (Brian Lewis) writes:

>I've never heard the T-E-S-T identifier broadcast, but I have tuned VORs
>which had *NO* identifier when they were out of service or in maintenance.
>I don't know if the DME part of a VORTAC or VORDME can be operational
>when the VOR is not, but (not having perfect pitch), I make sure I hear the
>identifier twice within 30 seconds before relying on the VOR.

Let me correct a possible misconception here...  You will NOT hear a DME
ident on a VOR frequency.  If you're listening to the VOR frequency, all
you'll ever hear is the VOR ident.  Though your DME receiver may _appear_
to be tuned to a VOR frequency (either directly, or remotely through one
of your VOR receivers) such as 116.8, it is actually tuned to the DME 
frequency in the UHF band that corresponds to the VOR frequency in the VHF
band (the mapping between the VHF/VOR and UHF/DME frequencies is in the AIM).

So, unless you listen through the DME receiver, you won't hear the DME ident.


-Brent
--
Brent Chapman                                   Great Circle Associates
Brent@GreatCircle.COM                           1057 West Dana Street
+1 415 962 0841                                 Mountain View, CA  94041
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
From: olsen@xn.ll.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Northern Canada trip report
Keywords: Canada, trip, IFR horror
Organization: MIT Lincoln Laboratory, Lexington, MA
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 92 18:24:24 GMT

In article <2007@usna.NAVY.MIL> dfr@usna.navy.mil (PROF D. Rogers (EAS FAC)) writes:
>There is now no customs at Houlton and after calling Sept-Isle in Canada
>Bill concluded that there was no customs on a Sunday in Canada.

Well, you actually could have jogged over to Quebec City (not too far out of
the way).  According to the Flight Supplement, they have customs every day.

>Pull out the IAP's. Oh no, again 1990 two years out-of-date!

I recall seeing somewhere that, in a situation like this, you can ask
the controller to read you the entire approach procedure (in text
form) over the radio.  Can someone confirm or deny this?

[Thanks for the report.  Too bad you couldn't make it to Grise Fiord!]
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 14:31:50 EDT
From: <VPN1@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
Subject: Poem, "High Flight"

Recently there were questions on the net about the
poem that begins, "Oh, I have slipped the surly bonds
of earth..."
The September 1992 Flying magazine, which just arrived,
has an article on the poem and its author.  Pages 52-3.
Enjoy.
           vince norris,  penn state u.
From: rdj@adpgate.UUCP (Richard Johnson)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
Subject: Re: stupid things I've done
Date: 21 Aug 92 19:48:17 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: ADP Dealer Services R&D, Portland, OR

ginsberg@t.Stanford.EDU (Matthew L. Ginsberg) writes:
: Dumb.  The landmark was socked in.  As I approached it, I asked
: Portland approach for help, and was given a variety of vectors that
: kept me -- sort of -- out of the clouds.  They eventually dumped me
: over a river that I thought was the Columbia; it was too small but I
: hadn't ever seen the Columbia before.

Big :=)

You took off from Troutdale and still didn't believe your eyes about the
river when they dumped you out over some creek!?  Wow!  I guess stress
is a bigger factor than I thought.  C'mon.  The Columbia is *B I G*!
(For the unitiatied, Troutdale is right next to the Columbia river, at a 
point where it is about 1 nautical mile wide. I guess Matthew doesn't look
down when he takes off.) :=)

That gorge got me in about the same way on a student solo.  (No, I'm not
gonna confess THAT today...)

Actually, two serious comments I'd like to make.  First is you must've
caught PDX on a bad, or very busy day.  Usually they're pretty sensitive
to VFR in and around the gorge, because the winds and clouds are so
dangerous and unpredicable there.  Second is, the mountains on the sides
of the gorge block RADAR just a few miles inland from Troutdale, so where
they had you go might have been the only place they could see you.

I ADORE the Columbia river gorge.  Especially from the air.  But it's
pretty unforgiving.

Warning Note to low-time pilots:
The Columbia River Gorge is by itself, about 1.5 of the three strikes
against you, except in perfect flying conditions.  At 1000 AGL you're
about 1/3 to 1/2 way up the sides of the hills, and about 2/3 to 3/4 of
the way up to the overcast.  For about 60 naut. mi. or so, the gorge is
about 1 mi wide at 1000 AGL and about 2 mi wide at 3000 AGL.  (Even in 
the middle of the gorge, you _could_ [if you had to] have two planes do 
180's at the same altitude at the same time, side-by-side, en between
those big cumulo-granite sidewalls.) The wind and rain are "exciting", 
and the river actually twists through there.  (I'd hate to imagine the 
wind if it _were_ straight.)

But it's intensely beautiful, and I recommend VFR flight through it in the
summer very highly.  :=)


-- 
Richard Johnson   (rdj%adpgate.uucp@apple.com)   (richard@agora.rain.com)
Illiterate?  Write for free government information.
From: skip@mitre.org (Skip Guild)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
Subject: Re: Who pays for it???
Date: 20 Aug 92 13:05:58 GMT
Organization: The MITRE Corp

In article <1992Aug19.150642.10242@sdf.lonestar.org> rjohnson@sdf.lonestar.org (Robert C. Johnson) writes:

>The other day I was talking to my (non-pilot) Dad about weather briefers,
>FSS's, VOR's, DME, TRACON, etc, etc, and he came up with a question
>that I could not answer:  "Who pays for it all?".

>...  As far as I know, 
>none of the (huge amounts) of money I spent to get licensed went
>to the FAA or DOT. . .

Than you're not paying enough for the gas you put in your plane.  Most
of the increased cost of AVGAS (and jet fuel) is a tax which goes 
towards paying for the airway system.
From: randys@hpcvra.cv.hp.com (Randy Stockberger)
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 17:35:20 GMT
Subject: Re: Flying to Oregon: Questions.
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Co., Corvallis, OR, USA