HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: greg@silver.lcs.mit.edu (Hossein Ali Qomi (mka Gregory F. Rose))
Subject: Re: Holy Grail monk chant... help?
Organization: The Rialto
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 21:41:00 GMT

Mistress Dorothea writes:

>I can tell you.  They are saying,
>
>"Pie Jesu Domine,
>dona eis requiem."
>
>"Good Lord Jesus,
>Give them rest."
>
>It's the last two lines--or more properly, I think (any chant historians
>around?), it's two lines that got tacked onto the end of--the sequence
>_Dies Irae._

Two brief quibbles (although I would certainly not characterize myself as
a liturgical historian):
First, the post-Tridentine form is "Pie," but the pre-Tridentine form is
"Beate."  The general re-working of the _ordo_ of the mass made quite a
few changes from usages before the Council of Trent (which is why using
modern musical scores can be misleading, i.e., they use the post-Tridentine
formulae of the chants).
Second, it wasn't that they were tacked onto the end of the sequentia Dies
Irae, but that a litania followed the Dies Irae in the pre-Tridentine ordo
of the requiem mass.

It may well be that you are right in that the Pythoners could well have
used the post-Tridentine form (it's a hell of a lot easier to get access
to post-Tridentine liturgical forms than pre-Tridentine now that we are
post-Vatican II's gelding of the mass ordo).

Hossein/Greg

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mstntpg@pluto.cc.huji.ac.il ("Thomas S. Arnold")
Subject: Oy Vey Oy Vey!!
Reply-To: mstntpg@pluto.cc.huji.ac.il
Organization: The Internet
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 00:49:14 GMT

Greetings Unto The Rialto!!

	Does anyone know how to sub from a Unix machine?
	Trying to reach Lord Godfrey de Shipbrook.
	Any Bergental Natives wanna drop me a line?

			In Service,

				Tomas the Tent-Peg of Bergental
--
Thomas S. Arnold
mstntpg@pluto.cc.huji.ac.il
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: cearr@cwis.unomaha.edu (Jesse C. Neese)
Subject: Currach??
Organization: University of Nebraska at Omaha
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 19:21:34 GMT

 Greetings,

     I have been asked by a friend to research a type of boat
used by the Irish and Anglo-Saxons.  I am just beginning the
work and was wondering if anyone could recommend some reference
material.  I believe he is eventually going to build a scale
version.

                                         Thank You,
                                      Cearr MacBrendan
                                    Lonely Tower, Calontir
From: mjc+@cs.cmu.edu (Monica Cellio)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: West Kingdom's Land Fund, Kingdom Trust, Inc.
Date: 27 Jan 93 16:32:15 GMT
Article-I.D.: NL.mjc.728152335
Distribution: usa
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon

>If you read the Articles of Incorporation, you will discover that the
>SCA can only transfer assets to another non-profit corporation of the
>501(c)3 type.  While I am far from an expert on the topic, I doubt
>that any tax liability arises under Federal law.  

I don't have the wording to hand, but the Articles of Incorporation state
that the SCA can transfer assets only to other 501(c)(3) organizations
*with compatible goals* to those of the SCA.  (In other words, SCA Inc. 
can't donate money to, say, Greenpeace even if the latter is 501(c)(3),
and it can't donate to organizations that are not 501(c)(3) no matter who
they are and what they do.)

What will happen now, according to my memory of informal notes from the 
Board meeting written by Hilary, is that KTI will incorporate as a 501(c)(3)
corporation and once they have done that, the SCA will transfer the funds.
This keeps it legal and there is no federal tax liability.  I presume that
the Board has a reasonable basis for believing that KTI can actually obtain
this status.

And now a question: is KTI planning to be a resource for *any* SCA group
that wants to acquire land in a similar manner?  If they're intended to be
strictly a West Kingdom organization, isn't the name a bit misleading?

Ellisif
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: 880840m@axe.acadiau.ca (MICHAEL ALEXANDER MCKAY)
Subject: Re: re:tristadigiphobia
Organization: Acadia University
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 03:04:36 GMT

In article <1993Jan19.153306.9999@iscsvax.uni.edu> coppinge8817@iscsvax.uni.edu ([COPPINGE8817].PLAN) writes:

>...shouldn't the word be "tristadectophobia"?
 
 Forgive me, but I can't resist; your spellings of 
this word are most amusing:

"tristadigiphobia": possibly "the fear of sad fingers"

"tristadectophobia": possibly "the fear of beggars [who loiter on] three 
porches" (not sure of this one?)

                              - Philandros Kalochromenos
                    
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: awarding awards
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 22:59:00

13 Jan 93  14:47:59
In their best Jack Nicholson voice, adam said to All;

 ad> Might there be some way that a "royal herald" complete with
 ad> appropriate garb and official type presence travel to outlying groups
 ad> to present awards.  The crown can not travel everywhere and this might
 ad> be a way to recognize folks in outlying areas.

lo'
   Let me make some comments with some risky gray areas still existing.  

   I do not know the size of your local group, nor its structure nor its 
composition, nor do I know your kingdom, so please adapt these remarks to your
local situation.

   In Calontir, for many years when we were a principality, only one king
ever came to visit.   No matter what, we simply could not manage to get a 
crown to venture the long distance out to our part of the world.
   Now, that we are a kingdom, the barony that I reside in, is in a bit more 
remote part of the world.   Not the most remote, nor not near so far as many 
that I have heard of in Ansteoria, the Middle, or the frozen north, but we 
still do not see the crown very often, unless, like currently, they live in
a centralized vicinity to the entire kingdom.
   Rather than seek a royal herald, your local group might consider holding a
small kingdom event and, after stating your case respectfully that it HAS been
a rather long time since you have seen a crown in your area and there are many
who might deserve some small recognition (this assumes that the populace has 
been doing it's duty & letting the appropriate officers up the chain know of
these peoples), that if the crown could consider attending your event, it may
be more to their pleasure than expected.
   If money is a difficulty for your crown, part of the expenditure for your 
groups event may be a small donation to help defer some of the costs of the 
crown attending your event.
   These suggestion will serve many purposes.   They will get your populous 
exposure that may make future crown visits less seldom.   It will spotlight 
the good work that your area can do for an event.   It will, also, show that
you are willing to see things from the crowns point of view.
   I think that you will find this to be much more satisfying than a visit 
from, now matter how fine a person they may be, the royal herald.

                                                       ~ Aindries

... "I am your king!" "just 'cause some watery tart threw a sword at you!"
 * Origin: Calontir -- We Deliver. (1:291/19.0)
From: bloodthorn@sloth.equinox.gen.nz (Jennifer Geard)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Illegal targets (was 
Distribution: world
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 93 07:49:26 GMT
Organization: Lethargy Inc.

Silfren and Dennis were writing about basket hilts, which prompts me to quote 
<mutter grumble> rules again.  This time it's the Society rule on basket 
hilts (the other hand-armour options follow this section).  Merely as a point 
of information before this matter takes off, you understand: 

 5. Hand and Wrist Armor:
    
    The outer surfaces of the hand and wrist of both arms (see drawings 
    page 58) must be covered by one or a combination of the following:

    a. A metal basket hilt with enough bars or plates to prevent a blow 
       from striking the fingers or the back of the hand.  If a basket 
       hilt is used, a vambrace or partial gauntlet should cover the 
       remaining portions of the hand and wrist. 
    (The [Society] Marshal's Handbook:  1992 Edition, pp. 41-42.)

Pagan le Chaunster
Who's been involved in a lot of discussion about this.
________________________________________________________________________ 
Jennifer Geard                         bloodthorn@sloth.equinox.gen.nz 
Christchurch, New Zealand
From: vader@meryl.csd.uu.se (]ke Eldberg)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: ERROR
Date: 26 Jan 93 18:35:53
Organization: University of Uppsala, Sweden
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: meryl.csd.uu.se

Has anyone else noticed that there seems to be something wrong
with the Digestifier? The newsgroup has lots of messages, but
the last 2 or 3 Digests only containted 1-3 postings.

This could seriously reduce my phone bill :-)

William de Corbie
From: holsten@golden.berkeley.edu ()
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: five golden rings ...
Date: 21 Jan 1993 21:01:43 GMT
Organization: U.C. College of Natural Resources
NNTP-Posting-Host: golden.berkeley.edu

In the Christmas carol, "Twelve Days of Christmas", the line "five
golden rings" has always made me wonder.  I mean, who would want *five*
rings?  Would you wear them all at the same time?  Would they all be the
same style?

I recently made myself a 16th cen German ladies outfit.  In doing the
research, I read that rings were often worn in sets of five.  Is this an
answer to my questions?  Does anyone know the origin (time and place) of
this song?  Since the twelve days of Christmas are obviously refering to
the twelve days before twelfth night, I think that this is probably an
older song.  Anyone have any info?

Joanna Melissa Ronsivalle                Donna Holsten
Mists, West                              holsten@insect.berkeley.edu
From: del@babel.DIALix.oz.au (D Elson)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Learning Welsh 
Distribution: world
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 93 10:39:25 GMT
Organization: 


In article <carrot.04n6@bear.stonemarche.org> carrot@bear.stonemarche.org writes:

  > Good gentles, I would appreciate being pointed to a good source for
  > learning Welsh. I would prefer 12th century but I would try modern.

Easy.  Just fill your mouth full of marbles and speak german  :) :) :)

(Sorry, I couldn't resist that one).

Del
-----------------------------------+-------------------------------------
D Elson                            |  del@DIALix.oz.au del@adied.oz.au
-----------------------------------+-------------------------------------
From: haslock@rust.zso.dec.com (Nigel Haslock)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: persona help
Date: 23 Jan 1993 00:21:34 GMT
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation - DECwest Engineering
Distribution: rec
NNTP-Posting-Host: rust.zso.dec.com


Have we forgotten Katherine Howard, wife to Henry VIII.

	Fiacha
	Aquaterra, AnTir
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: pa142548@utkvm1.utk.edu (T. Archer)
Subject: Re: Potential New Topics 
Organization: University of Tennessee 
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 17:26:31 GMT

In article <727697487snx@sloth.equinox.gen.nz> hairy@sloth.equinox.gen.nz (Phil Anderson) writes:
>mcdaniel@grex.ann-arbor.mi.us writes:
>
>  > The period herald wore the arms of his lord.  I think that all heralds
>  > in the Society should do the same.  The green tabard should be
>  > abolished.
>
>M'lord, I must disagree with that latter point. A herald acting for an 
>individual would, I agree, do well to wear the arms of that person, but 
>I see an advantage in having a single, widely-recognised insignia for 
>those heralds doing "official" rather than "personal" announcements.

This is one reason I support quartering.  The gold-on-green is recognized 
society wide and useful for that reason.  I would interpret a tabard with a 
personal device and the crossed trumpets to indicate a herald of Lord Whosis.

But, that's probably not a period practice, and, of course, just because it 
makes sense is no reason to do it.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
E-Mail to PA142548@utkvm1.utk.edu, mail to ARCHER at that address will
bounce.    "Don't blame me, I voted Libertarian."
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: cctimar@athena.cas.vanderbilt.edu (Charles the clerk)
Subject: Re: Potential New Topics 
Organization: Shire of Glaedenfeld
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 22:20:41 GMT

To all upon the Rialto doth Charles the clerk send his greetings!

Edward the Discalceate writeth:
> 
> M'lord, I must disagree with that latter point. A herald acting for an 
> individual would, I agree, do well to wear the arms of that person, but 
> I see an advantage in having a single, widely-recognised insignia for 
> those heralds doing "official" rather than "personal" announcements.

What was done in period?  I believe (without any justification) that
all servants wore the livery or badge of their employer.  Many also
carried something to identify their office.

I assume that this would mean that a seneschal would wear his lord's
colours (in the SCA, the Baronial or Kingdom colours) with, possibly,
the lord's badge on it, and the keys on a chain of office.  (I hope I'm
right that the seneschals were identified by keys, but I may be very
confused.)

I am fairly sure that wearing a tabard indicating your profession would
only be done by members of a guild (wearing the guild's colours - and
the same profession would have different guild colours in different
places).

A step in the right direction (ie, one that might be easier to get the
populace to accept) might be wearing the employer's colours with both
the employer's badge and the badge of office.  (Not very different from
the quartered tabard that was described.)  For example, putting the
Meridien Kingdom Heralds in black and white tabards, with both a crown
and the trumpets per saltire, while the Baronial Heralds would each
wear the colours and badges of their respective Baronies, with the
trumpets, and hired heralds would wear the colours and badges of their
employers with the crossed trumpets.

Caveat: I strongly suspect that this is not a period practice, I just
think it may be closer to what was done than what we are doing now.

As I said, this is based on a minimal knowledge.  If somebody more
knowledgeable would give their understanding, I would appreciate it.
--
    -- Charles, student, in Glaedenfeld, Meridies
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: desilets@sj.ate.slb.com (Mark Desilets)
Subject: Re: period fighting styles
Reply-To: desilets@sj.ate.slb.com (Mark Desilets)
Organization: Schlumberger ATE, San Jose
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 93 18:56:49 GMT

In article <3206@tymix.Tymnet.COM> jschmidt@oolong.Tymnet.COM (John Schmidt) writes:
>
>If we want to do all that, why not allow grappling as well?
>
  
  I *really* like the idea of allowing grappling to some extent.  Sure,
  it gives more advantage to the larger and/or stronger fighter, but
  is that not period?  It seems that, in an effort to make fighting
  accessible to all, we have opted to emphasize the purely speed aspects
  of fighting, while downplaying the strength aspects.  Some of
  us fairly-strong-but-not-overly-fast fighter types would like
  to level the playing surface, as it were.


						In Service,

							Mark DeSilets


Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: glink@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Gary Link)
Subject: Peers-in-training
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 16:28:55 GMT

Just to expand the discussion of protege(e)s a bit, and to bring back a
bit of the fireside-chat atmosphere...what is it that you believe to be
the important factor in becoming/choosing an apprentice/squire/protege?

And for those who are on the other end of the belt..why did you accept
your Peer's offer, and what do you hope to accomplish in the end?

This is intended for a general discussion, not a gripe session on Peers
or a/s/p's.

Gary
known in the SCA as Hal Raeburn
apprentice to Mistress Rowena o'r Emrallt
From: greg@silver.lcs.mit.edu (Hossein Ali Qomi (mka Gregory F. Rose))
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Email Glitch
Date: 21 Jan 93 20:26:07 GMT
Organization: The Rialto

I apologize for the private use of bandwidth.  Lord Daniel of Falling
Rock sent me some email to which I would be happy to reply if my editor
had not eaten his email address.  If he would send me his address, I would
be most grateful.

Hossein/Greg
From: Dave.Aronson@p11.f120.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Dave Aronson)
Sender: Uucp@blkcat.UUCP
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Atmosphere?
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 11:44:24 -0500

Angharad ver' Rhuawn (jtn@nutter.cs.vt.edu (Terry Nutter)) asketh:

 TN> It just occurred to me, that as often as we appeal to "atmosphere",
 TN> we rarely say where, for each of us, it comes from.  What makes
 TN> for the "flavor" and "atmosphere" of the SCA for the rest of you?
 TN> Inquiring minds want to know....

To me, 'tis mainly the behavior of the populace - the courteous (but not stuffy)
manner, the "forsooth" speech, the *honesty*.  Unfortunately, it can easily be
intruded on by other means, such as suffocation by cigarette smoke (which I
suppose would break the mood far less were it not so irritating by itself), and
overly modern dress/clothing/topics/objects/etc.

(Yes, I realize tobacco could be considered [late] period, but I do not believe
that *cigarettes* are period - let alone the chemicals that American
cigar/cigarette companies lace them with, which I believe may be the major
irritant, at least in my case, as pipes and foreign cigs don't bother me
anywhere NEAR as much.)


Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman)
Subject: Re: A Little of Everything, pt. 2
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 23:15:56 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

Greetings from Arval!  Justin wrote of the practice of synchronized oohs
and aahs in court:

> ...when that practice was current in the East, it happened in local
> courts as well, at least sometimes. The only way we managed to get rid of
> it was by concerted effort. Arval (who was then Brigantia Principal
> Herald) pointed out that it was rude, and encouraged others to point it
> out as well.

Much as I appreciate the credit, this isn't the story.  The credit for
(largely) eliminating this practice in the East belongs to Master Johannes
aus Nierenfels, who took the offensive against it as Tyger Clerk of the
Signet, explaining the it was rude both to the awardee and to the scribe.
At best, I may have repeated his lesson when the topic came up again.

===========================================================================
Arval Benicoeur                                       mittle@watson.ibm.com
From: jtn@nutter.cs.vt.edu (Terry Nutter)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Atmosphere?
Date: 25 Jan 93 20:43:37 GMT
Followup-To: rec.org.sca
Organization: The Rialto

Greetings, all, from Angharad ver' Rhuawn.  Vajk recently posted,

>I don't mind too much if someone is not wearing authentic
>garb, or practicing the arts and sciences in a way that is
>not authentic.  Contrary to some belief (probably because I DO
>like research), I am as much into the "flavor" and 
>"atmosphere" as anything else in the SCA.

It just occurred to me, that as often as we appeal to "atmosphere",
we rarely say where, for each of us, it comes from.  What makes
for the "flavor" and "atmosphere" of the SCA for the rest of you?
Inquiring minds want to know....

Cheers,

-- Angharad/Terry
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: greg@silver.lcs.mit.edu (Hossein Ali Qomi (mka Gregory F. Rose))
Subject: Re: Persona question
Organization: The Rialto
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 06:40:40 GMT

Steve Duncan writes:

>Far be it for me to question the learned Hossein, but I thought that
>the Latin form of Ludwig was Clovis. Had that changed by post classical
>times?  Assuming it still valid, then AElfgar, "Elf Spear", would then
>perhaps be "Elvis".

Feel free to question -- it's part of the price of being an academic.
However, Clovis is not an early medieval form: it's modern French.  The
early medieval form (e.g., in Gregory of Tours) is "Chlodovechus."  By
the mid-eighth century this had evolved to "Hlodovechus" and "Hludowechus,"
as well as some additional variant spellings (the principal dialect
differences were the value of the first vowel and the value of the v/w).
A quick consultation of the two volumes of the _Capitularia Regum Francorum_
(the MGH series) shows the development from actual texts.

AElfgar doesn't have the same evolution-sensitive phonemes which account 
for the West/East Frankish differences.

Hossein/Greg


Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mjc+@cs.cmu.edu (Monica Cellio)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Awarding Awards or Ooh, Ah, Oh
Date: 22 Jan 93 06:32:22 GMT
Article-I.D.: NL.mjc.727684342
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon

>(This isn't just a case of sour grapes from a scribe; I haven't been 
>called upon to make any court scrolls.  I'd just like to SEE the scrolls
>as they're being awarded.)

Have you suggested this to the herald before court, or more generally to
the kingdom herald?  The folks in charge may simply have not thought of
it.  After all, the practice of identifying the scribes in the East was
unheard-of a few years ago, until some bright herald (Arval, I think)
did it once.  Real scrolls are very new to Trimaris; I'm not surprised
that not everyone knows what to do with them yet.

I was going to email this, but the general theme applies more widely:
don't assume the people running things have thought of every detail that
would make the court/tourney/feast/newsletter/whatever more interesting.
Very few people will get huffy at a sincere, polite suggestion -- though
courtesy demands that you not approach the herald as the procession is 
forming, or the cook right before the first remove, and so forth.  Most
people, in my experience, will welcome the input; it's very rare.

Ellisif
From: Tim@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Tim)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: New England SCA Chapter?
Date: 26 Jan 93 12:37:15 GMT


    Percival Nghiem wrote:

 HN> Howdy y'all.  Interested in joining the SCA, but am not aware of the
 HN> local chapter to Dartmouth College in New Hampshire.

 I think they tried to start one there once, but it was Winter Carnival and
 nobody noticed.... 8-)

    Tadhg, Obelisk (Yale '78)

 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
From: bloodthorn@sloth.equinox.gen.nz (Jennifer Geard)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Potential New Topics 
Distribution: world
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 93 11:12:44 GMT
Organization: Lethargy Inc.

Charles the Scholar wrote:

  > What was done in period?  I believe (without any justification) that
  > all servants wore the livery or badge of their employer.  Many also
  > carried something to identify their office.

Unfortunately I can't find the books, so I too will make unsupported 
statements. 

The theory that heralds wore the livery or badge of their employer works just 
fine except that not all heralds were in the employ of some lord.  There seem 
to have been "freelance heralds" who got to travel around and see the world 
(a working holiday studying heraldry) and also had certain perks like tax-
free status.  Somewhere, sometime, I believe the merchants of a town got 
tired of people passing themselves off as heralds for the benefits of free 
travel and tax avoidance, and asked their overlord to Do Something About It.

I see the freelance herald wandering around (possibly in a tabard semy of ex-
employers' arms, like one picture I've seen) as a most promising premise for 
a persona.

Pagan le Chaunster
________________________________________________________________________
Jennifer Geard                         bloodthorn@sloth.equinox.gen.nz
Christchurch, New Zealand