HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: rick@crick.ssctr.bcm.tmc.edu (Richard H. Miller)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.arts.fantasy
Date: 17 Nov 1992 17:01:05 GMT
Organization: Baylor College of Medicine, Houston, Tx
NNTP-Posting-Host: crick.ssctr.bcm.tmc.edu
Keywords: fantasy RFD arts

In article <1992Nov17.155907.9243@dartvax.dartmouth.edu>, geoffb@coos.dartmouth.edu (Geoff Bronner) writes:

> Also, where was the pre-RFD discussion of this idea? I didn't see anything
> in any of the logical groups.
> 

The only discussion I remember seeing was a short thing in alt.config which was
talking about an alt group. Very shortly after that the official RFD did
appear. (AS an aside, please do not go to alt since  more and more sites are
bypassing alt. We no longer create alt groups unless someone asks for a
particular group.If there is not enough interest in a new mainstream group,
keep the discussions in rec.arts.sf.written and do not make an alt group.).
-- 
Richard H. Miller                 Email: rick@bcm.tmc.edu
Asst. Dir. for Technical Support  Voice: (713)798-3532
Baylor College of Medicine        US Mail: One Baylor Plaza, 302H
                                           Houston, Texas 77030
Xref: sparky news.groups:22303 soc.culture.indian:37408 soc.culture.pakistan:16841 soc.culture.bangladesh:6045
From: mick@bigwpi.WPI.EDU (Ravi Narayan)
Newsgroups: news.groups,soc.culture.indian,soc.culture.pakistan,soc.culture.bangladesh
Subject: Re: could this be moved??? (Was Re: CFV: soc.religion.islam.ahmadiyya moderated)
Date: 18 Nov 1992 02:59:57 GMT
Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigwpi.wpi.edu
Originator: mick@bigwpi.WPI.EDU


In article <1ebuj6INN785@matt.ksu.ksu.edu>, bets@matt.ksu.ksu.edu (Beth Schwindt) writes:
|> 
|> It has no place in news.groups.  Please remove it from the subject lines
|> of future postings on this topic.                          ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
|> 

	an even better idea would be to take news.groups (and soc.
	culture.indian too please!!!!) off the newsgroups line!

	thank you,

	- ravi

-- 
----------_________----------__________----------__________----------_______
.sig (n): a piece of mail with a fool at one  | Ravi Narayan, CS, WPI
          end and flames at the other. (C).   | 89 SuzukiGS500E - Phaedra ;)
__________---------__________---------__________---------__________---------
-- 
----------_________----------__________----------__________----------_______
sig (n): a piece of mail with a fool at one  | Ravi Narayan, CS, WPI
          end and flames at the other. (C).   | 89 SuzukiGS500E - Phaedra ;)
__________---------__________---------__________---------__________---------
From: rsk@aspen.circ.upenn.edu (Rich Kulawiec)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: Short comments, plus long rec.music.makers.* pre-vote discussion
Date: 23 Nov 92 13:08:40 GMT
Organization: GSP Whitewater Slalom Racing Team

In article <15013.9211211300@csparc2.scs.leeds.ac.uk> ross-c@scs.leeds.ac.uk writes:
>In article <98467@netnews.upenn.edu> you write:
>>have not taken rudimentary steps to inform themselves, or both.  Of course,
>>this same attitude might also explain why I no longer read manual excerpts
>>to users, answer elementary questions covered by "README" files, or spend
>>a lot of time answering inquiries that have been asked on Usenet for the
>>47th time *and* are covered by a FAQ.  I think people should be responsible
>
>The attitude expressed by Ric K. makes me glad that I don't work at his
>site. There may be repetition in your job, but this is the fault of your
>job, not the people asking questions. If you don't like your job.....

First of all, my name is "Rich", not "Ric".

Second, I was not referring to my job; and this isn't "my site".

Third, if, as you suggest, people are asking [repetitive] questions, then,
yes, indeed, this is their fault.  I hold people personally accountable
for their actions, including failure to RTFM or RTFFAQ (which is a spiffy
new acronym that I think has some potential).

Fourth, I'm under no obligation to render assistance to anybody except as
required by my job.  The volunteer work that I've done for Usenet for over
a decade is done at my discretion: and I have decided not to help those
people who will not make an effort to help themselves.  If *you* (or anyone
else) would like to help such people, be my guest; perhaps you will do
some good.  Good luck.

>Also, Ric K. leaves "getting 100% participation in votes" as an exercise to
>the reader. This is *NOT* the current problem. 

I did not say that it was the current problem.  In fact, I don't think
of it as a problem as all--I think of it as a feature.  A careful examination
of my comments will reveal that I was addressing *someone else* who felt
that achieving 100% participation was an important goal.  Please try to
read more carefully in the future.

---Rsk
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: ecaxron@ariel.lerc.nasa.gov (Ron Graham)
Subject: Re: RFD: sci.engr.power
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Keywords: power engineering, new group, request for discussion
Organization: NASA Lewis Research Center
Date: 17 Nov 1992 09:49 EST  

In article <1e980rINNfsh@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu>, rick@crick.ssctr.bcm.tmc.edu 
     (Richard H. Miller) writes...

>1) How much traffic is there on the exiting sci.engr. Not a lot is there
>so why do you need a news group? You also overlap with sci.energy and 
>sci.engr.control. 

You wrote this in more of a hurry than you usually do, Mr. Miller - but
that's not going to stop me from agreeing ;-).

>Remember that I have yet to see any group which has caused traffic to appear
>because it was created. 

Did you miss rec.music.christian?

RG
From: dave@frackit.UUCP (Dave Ratcliffe)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: comp.society.folklore unmoderation
Summary: Sorry. Momentary synapse lapse...
Date: 16 Nov 92 01:56:48 GMT
Organization: Data Factory Services, Harrisburg, Pa.

In article <id.55UU.V0L@ferranti.com>, peter@ferranti.com (peter da silva) writes:
> In article <1762@frackit.UUCP> dave@frackit.UUCP (Dave Ratcliffe) writes:
> > Maybe in your world. ANYTHING outside of the alt.* hierarchy is a promotion.
> 
> Nonsense. What about talk.* (AKA flame.*)?

You are, of course, absolutely correct. 

Mea culpa. 

Won't happen again. 

Sorry. 

-- 
 ...uunet!wa3wbu!frackit!dave -or-                       |  Dave Ratcliffe  |
 frackit!dave@uunet.UU.NET -or- dave@frackit.uucp -or-   |  Sys. <*> Admin. |
 vogon1!compnect!frackit!dave@psuvax1.psu.edu            | Harrisburg,  Pa. |
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: durrell@pinball.arcade.uiowa.edu (Bryant Durrell)
Subject: Re: CFSV: Call for "Straw" Votes - Rec.games.frp.campaign
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 18:13:45 GMT
Organization: University of Iowa

In article <1992Nov16.155943.14302@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> cbnorman@cayley.uwaterloo.ca writes:
>Type: UNMODERATED

>    GMs will have to apply to the moderator before beginning a net-campaign.  
>This is simply to allow the moderator to keep track of what games are ongoing 
>in the newsgroup. 

Neat trick!

For those of you who didn't read carefully, I note that this "straw 
poll" is only on whether or not we should keep talking about the 
group.  A "NO" vote will be taken as an indication that it's time
to put it to a vote.  The wording is pretty darned confusing, I
know.  I think I interpreted it correctly.

As such, I won't be voting.  Remember, if less than 100 people
respond he promised to drop the idea.

Bryant
durrell@chop.isca.uiowa.edu
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: nadeau@bcarh1ab.bnr.ca (Rheal Nadeau)
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd., Ottawa
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 23:55:11 GMT

In article <1992Nov19.082844.13812@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov writes:
>nadeau@bcarh1ab.bnr.ca (Rheal Nadeau) writes:
>>>And *again* I assert that it wasn't the fault of the unwillingly ignorant 
>>>that they didn't vote.
>>Dave, I often miss events or sales I'd be interested in, because I
>>didn't bother reading the paper the day they were announced, or skipped
>>over that section.  Would I be justified in complaining that I wasn't
>>given fair notice, that I should get a second chance?
>
>"What do you mean that the city is auctioning my property? I wasn't notified.
>WHAT? I don't get a chance to complain?"

How about:  "What do you mean, my street has been renamed?  Oh, it was
listed in the paper?  BUT IT WASN'T ON PAGE 1!"

Or more serious, "the land next door was rezoned and they're building an
apartment complex?  How come no one knocked on my door to tell me"?
This does happen, and the homeowner affected doesn't get a chance to
vote even if he does see the legal notice published in the paper.

Mind you, I have seen signs posted advertising that such zoning changes
were being considered - but people actually had to walk up and read them
(no, they didn't have giant neon letters, flashing in the night).  And
a lot of people don't bother reading signs - there are so many of
them around.

The Rhealist - Rheal Nadeau - nadeau@bnr.ca - Speaking only for myself
From: twpierce@unix.amherst.edu (Tim Pierce)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: Short comments, plus long rec.music.makers.* pre-vote discussion
Keywords: music, makers, synth, flame war, vote, rfd, cfv
Date: 20 Nov 92 19:53:26 GMT
Organization: Elitist Usenet Administrators, Stuff & Nonsense Division

In article <1992Nov20.185631.27310@blaze.cs.jhu.edu> arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee) writes:

>In article <1992Nov20.014227.9059@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov writes:
>
>>Any argument I come up with would be named that by you. So as not to
>>disappoint you:
>>He didn't post that often enough. 
>
>Another point to note: if nobody even _realized_ that an article was posted
>with the word "rename" in the header until _now_, that means the article was
>fairly inconspicuous....

Big fucking deal.  That article was only one of an enormous number of
demonstrated announcements to rec.music.synth about the revote in
progress.  If people failed to note an article with "renaming of
rec.music.synth" in the subject line, they sure as hell wouldn't have
noticed one reading "CFV: renaming of rec.music.synth."  Get a clue.

-- 
____ Tim Pierce                / 
\  / twpierce@unix.amherst.edu /               Rocks say goodbye.
 \/ (BITnet: TWPIERCE@AMHERST) /
From: NMBCU@CUNYVM.BITNET (Nelson Broat)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: David Hayes ... who else? :-) (mild flame)
Date: 17 Nov 92 14:09:53 GMT
Organization: City University of New York/ University Computer Center

In article <1992Nov14.012953.1615@jato.jpl.nasa.gov>, dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov
(Dave Hayes) says:
>
>>Actually, there have been a number of controversies before this one; this
>>is only the latest.
>
>And maybe it will be the last of this magnitude if I can help it...

Excuse me...but isn't that an OXYMORON? :-)

>    He who has self-conceit in his head -
>         Do not imagine that he will ever hear the truth.

Writing about yourself again I see. :-)

Sorry, Dave but I couldn't resist. Actually, the reason I even
read news.groups was because a local user complained about not being
able to read news.groups due to its heavy traffic. So I had to check
on what he was talking about.

My my you're in a wee bit of a snit. :-) Give it up dude, the group
has been created. And at my site it shall remain created for all
time.

If you want to do something constuctive <== also, an Oxymoron :-),
why not simply do whats been done before and what will be done
time and time again long after you're through doing it...and that is,
ask for a discussion of the newsgroup creation guidelines, since its
obvious that this is what you're unhappy about the most. As for me, I'm
happy with them just the way they are.

Nelson - Who's borrowing the following sig from a friend...

"I always have THOUGHTS about anything,
 SOLUTIONS, however, are another matter."
Newsgroups: news.groups,news.admin.policy
From: irilyth@fenris.claremont.edu (Josh Smith)
Subject: Re: Discussion: Rewriting the newsgroup creation rules--drastically
Originator: irilyth@fenris
Organization: HMC Academic Computing Services
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 19:47:46 GMT

In a prior article, Brad Templeton (brad@clarinet.com) writes:
> Actually, any attempt to measure group success by broad readership is
> far less prone to "spoiler" effects.  You can't get enough people
> together to "all go and read other groups so that xxx group loses" or
> to create enough groups in competition.

Well, if you can measure who's actually reading the group, you might have
something there. My impression was that this was somewhere between difficult
and impossible, but I don't really have much of a sense for the technical
considerations involved.

> As some will know, I proposed and even got passed a similar scheme to all
> this a year ago. [...] If some other longtime netter wants to take up the
> trial scheme, my SMTP port is open.

Wait, I remember trial.* when it came out--was that your brainchild? I
wasn't reading news.groups at the time. It sounded like a really good idea
to me when I heard about it, but nothing much ever seemed to come of it, I
guess due to your drifting from the scheme. If you could mail me details
about how it worked/was supposed to work, I'd definitely be interested in
checking it out.
-- 
Josh Smith, User Support Coordinator  ::  irilyth@fenris.claremont.edu
Harvey Mudd College, Claremont CA     ::  consult(std-disclaimer.pl).
"Dad always thought laughter was the best medicine, which I guess is why
several of us died of tuberculosis." -Jack Handey, Deep Thoughts
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes)
Subject: Re: Short comments, plus long rec.music.makers.* pre-vote discussion
Keywords: music, makers, synth, flame war, vote, rfd, cfv
Reply-To: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov
Organization: Jet Propulsion Lab - Pasadena, CA
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 23:53:03 GMT

jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard) writes:
>If there was really such a groundswell of opinion against the rename, why
>wasn't there a bunch of discussion generated by that article??

It takes more than that. Look at how I started this flamewar. I posted
many articles within a span of time. THAT got a response. 
-- 
Dave Hayes - Network & Communications Engineering - JPL / NASA - Pasadena CA
dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov       dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov         ...usc!elroy!dxh

   There is no greater calamity for a nation or individual
                 than not finding contentment in one's sufficiency.
From: leonard@mimsy.umd.edu (Leonard Dickens)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.games.netrek reorganization
Date: 17 Nov 92 23:12:29 GMT
Organization: Deep Thirteen, Gizmonics Institute

In article <1992Nov16.233437.24816@ucsu.Colorado.EDU> farrow@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (J. Scott Farrow) writes:
>At least in comp.os.linux, there was a real honest-to-goodness discussion
>(argument) about whether a split is needed, as opposed to your one-sided, one-
>supporter proposal. Hell, the traffic in comp.os.linux must be 10 times that
>in rec.games.netrek anyway. They need to be thinking about a split. 
>rec.games.netrek does not have the traffic to warrant a split.

What do you think the necessary level is?  And why shouldn't it be as
low as we can muster voting support for?

>I still have yet to see anyone besides Alan supporting (indifference does not
>count) the idea of a split. If you take this to a vote, Alan, it will go down
>in flames. Why bother?

I support it, although not exactly what Alan proposed.  I would still
read all of the groups; nonetheless, the key point here is that I know
people that wouldn't.  I know people that currently do not read r.g.n
due to the traffic; I think I could get them to vote for the reorg,
though.  They would want to read r.g.n.announce.

Nonetheless, it is plain that if the vote was held right now, it would
fail.  Why are you guys so against the split?  How would it hurt you?
How would it really affect you at all?  Rob?  Tom?  Is there some cost
to the netrek community for having three newsgroups that I am missing?

How does r.g.n.programmer (UNmoderated) strike anyone as less worthy
or relevant than, say, alt.fan.disney.afternoon,
comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3, or rec.autos.antique?  (Just to pick a few new
newsgroups that came through today.)

-Leonard

By the way, how do we eliminate alt.games.xtrek?
From: jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: Short comments, plus long rec.music.makers.* pre-vote discussion
Keywords: music, makers, synth, flame war, vote, rfd, cfv
Date: 19 Nov 1992 09:36:42 GMT
Organization: UT Health Science Center Houston

In article <Bxy9xx.Fo1@unix.amherst.edu> twpierce@unix.amherst.edu (Tim Pierce) writes:
>From: david@roth-music.com (David A. Roth)
>Newsgroups: rec.music.synth,news.groups
>Subject: Re: rec.music.synth renaming discussion in news.groups
>Date: 6 Sep 92 23:00:27 GMT

This shoots down Dave Hayes' current argument.

Well, Dave: what now? Are you going to come up wiht yet another lame argument,
or are you now going to admit that the readers of rec.music.synth were
notified - several times, including at least once with an explicit Subject:
line saying specifically that there was a discussion to rename the group going
on - and had a full and fair chance to participate? Even though you screwed up
BY YOUR OWN ADMISSION and didn't post a message pointint the rename out to the
readers of the group, SOMEONE ELSE DID!

Time to give up, Dave. You've well and truly lost. Unless you wish to hurt
those who read the group further by fragmenting it, and unless looking like a
True Defender Of The Poor, Unknowing, and Downtrodden Real News Users - and,
incidentally, like a complete fool - is more important than actually serving
the users you claim to protect, you'd do well to go along with the existing
result.  
-- 
Jay Maynard, EMT-P, K5ZC, PP-ASEL | Never ascribe to malice that which can
jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu      | adequately be explained by stupidity.
           "Cat: Four legs and an attitude." -- Jim Reese
Xref: sparky news.groups:22068 news.admin.policy:414
From: lhe@sics.se (Lars-Henrik Eriksson)
Newsgroups: news.groups,news.admin.policy
Subject: Re: Trouble regarding the s.r.i.a CFV
Date: 16 Nov 92 20:14:32 GMT
	<werner-161192111417@128.32.157.31>
Followup-To: news.groups,news.admin.policy
Organization: Swedish Institute of Computer Science, Kista

In article <werner-161192111417@128.32.157.31> werner@soe.berkeley.edu (John Werner) writes:
   You said not to follow up, but I'd like to point out it's even *more* of a
   mess than you said.  Someone (Jafri?) posted the number of votes he's
   gotten so far.  So now people are going to be complaining about the
   (bogus?) votetaker revealing the results during the vote.

Posting the number of votes recieved is not "revealing the results"
during the vote. In fact, it is common practise to (indirectly) post
the number of votes recieved!

During the course of a vote, the votetaker often posts a second (or
third, or...) CFV, which commonly includes an acknowledgement of all
votes recieved so far. As long as it is impossible to see from the
acknowledgement who voted which way (e.g. by sorting the voter id's in
alphabetical order), this is a completely proper procedure.

On the other hand, this mess is bad enough that all CFV's for
soc.religion.islam.ahmaddiya should be cancelled and the voting be
started anew, preferrably with a neutral vote taker.
--
Lars-Henrik Eriksson                            Internet: lhe@sics.se
Swedish Institute of Computer Science           Phone (intn'l): +46 8 752 15 09
Box 1263                                        Telefon (nat'l): 08 - 752 15 09
S-164 28  KISTA, SWEDEN                         Fax: +46 8 751 72 30
From: roder@cco.caltech.edu (Brenda J. Roder)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.arts.fantasy
Date: 21 Nov 1992 01:28:04 GMT
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
NNTP-Posting-Host: punisher.caltech.edu

TERRY D. BARKLEY <32BSFJC@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU> writes:
[much deleted of interesting description of thoughts on fantasy, eventually
leading to a definition of fantasy]
>most workable: "Fantasy is any departure from consensus reality, an impulse
>native to literature and manifested in innumerable variations, from monster to
>metaphor."("Fantasy and Mimesis," Kathryn Hume (New York: Methuen, Inc., 1984)
>p. 21.)  What leaves Science Fiction out of this definition is the fact that
>Sci-Fi writes about what could be, based on natural law and physics or on the
>real possibility that what is written will be attained eventually.  As to the
>invention of aliens, most are created with natural law in mind and their
>invention is no different than a realist inventing a fake country in South
>America with its own customs and religion in order to move his or her story
>along.  Science Fiction, in short, deals with possibilities, while Fantasy
>deals with impossibilities.

So, a writer who uses FTL (faster than light) travel should be considered
fantasy?  OTOH, should psi abilities fall under science fiction or fantasy?
They may or may not be possibilities (depends who you ask).  Also, does the
line between science fiction and fantasy change with time, so that what 
was once considered out of the realm of the possible has now become possible
and the work can change from fantasy to science fiction as time passes?

[more deletions, eventually leading to a list of authors of fantasy]
>are: Franz Kafka, Jean-Paul Sartre, Jonathan Swift, George Orwell, Homer,
>Shakespeare, Poe, Tolkien, Donaldson, Jane Yolen, Eugene Ionesco, Samuel
>Beckett, and Kurt Vonnegut.  There is much that has yet to be said of these
>artists, and of current and future artists.  Let's get it on.

I'm not sure all of these are neccessarily what was in mind.  If indeed
these are what the originator of the proposal had in mind, then perhaps
it should be rec.arts.books.fantasy since I would place many of these
authors under mainstream fiction.  Perhaps there needs to be a distinction
between science fiction fantasy (what I think most discussants are thinking
of) and other (literature) fantasy?  Science fiction fantasy fits into and
is discussed in rec.arts.sf.written and perhaps the others belong in 
rec.arts.books?

-- 
-- Brenda (roder@cobalt.caltech.edu)
Thought before action, if there's time.
    _The Edge_  Dick Francis
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: fenner@postscript.cs.psu.edu (Bill Fenner)
Subject: Re: RENAME: Those against name change PLEASE READ!
Organization: Penn State Computer Science
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1992 23:50:04 GMT

In article <1992Nov15.122948.11477@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov writes:
|chip@tct.com (Chip Salzenberg) writes:
|>NO ONE HAS TO KEEP UP WITH NEWS.GROUPS TO PARTICIPATE IN VOTES.
|>THAT'S WHAT NEWS.ANNOUNCE.NEWGROUPS IS FOR.
|
|To participate in votes...no. To get the issues behind the votes, or
|to try and stop people from a bogus name change in the RFD stage...YES. 

Um... news.announce.newgroups has RFD's in it, Dave.  When you see an
RFD in news.announce.newgroups that has something you don't like in it,
then you start reading news.groups.  The whole reason I started reading
news.groups this time was because I saw your RFD for a revote in
news.announce.newgroups.

  Bill
Newsgroups: news.groups