Newsgroups: bit.listserv.csg-l
Date:         Sun, 6 Sep 1992 11:47:48 MST
From:         Ed Ford <ATEDF@ASUACAD.BITNET>
Subject:      Dealing With Children

from Ed Ford (920906:1150)

>Bill Powers (920906.0900) Where were you 35 years ago when I needed
>you to explain to me what control theory means in the real world?

The same place you were, struggling to figure out what to do when you
didn't know what to do with a bunch of crazy, mixed-up kids who were
going through the trauma of the 60's........

>I think that the "asking questions" approach can easily be overdone.

Absolutely.  Especially with one's spouse.  In that case, it is rarely
done, and even then, very carefully.......

>I'm also disturbed by the content of some of the questions.  One is
>"What's the rule?"

I hope my brief remarks on the subject were understood in the context
intended, namely, as a brief outline only.  There are a lot of
techniques involved in this approach that take many sessions to teach.
I covered the basic content, enough to give people a sense of what I
was trying to do and a sense of the direction I find most helpful and
efficient.  Once a person begins to experience working with a child in
this way, hopefully they'll do a little creative thinking on their own
and expand the approach TO FIT THE SITUATION.

When working with the more difficult juvenile, I tend to have them
establish in their minds the highest priority systems concept they want
at the time, which is generally (in a lock up facility) to "get out of
here." Then I'd ask, "Is punching that kid going to get you out of
here?"  The juvenile might respond, "He gets in my face."  I'd then
repeat my question, quietly and persistently, "But is punching that kid
going to get you out of here or is it going to delay your stay?"  They
then might respond "But what else can I do?"   Then I'd say, "Do you
want to work at a better way of dealing with kids who get in your face
and possibly get out sooner, or do you want me to leave you alone?
What do you want?"   In the above short dialogue, the rules and
standards are implied but not directly asked.  This is what I mean by
creatively moving about an upset living control system, trying in as
subtle a way as possible to help him/her deal with life.

>So the point I'm raising is that "What's the rule?" is probably the
>wrong question, or statement, when the person has passed beyond the
>stage where rules are taken as a natural phenomena.........

As you can see from my above remarks, I'm not saying that my little
card should be used exactly without using any creative thought on the
part of the parent/counselor/teacher or who ever.  You have to look
around, fuss with ideas as they come to you, try different ways of
asking, as you suggested when you said..

>"Is this how you'd like to be living when you're 40?"

I think the real key for middle and high school students, especially
juveniles in lock up or residential treatment centers, is to look for
their reference levels with the highest priorities, such as "Do you
want to get out of here?" or "What do you really want?" Often you have
to get beyond the immediate problem, which is really symptomatic of a
higher prioritized but not yet articulated problem.

>I don't know if any of this can actually be done with an 18-year-old
offender.

My experience is - it depends whether they want help or not.  Many
don't want to work with you, others do.  I've had them say "Hey, Man, I
make more in a week than you do in a year and I don't pay taxes."  He's
right, of course.  But then my chances of getting shot, killed, sent to
prison or just beaten up are less.  My theory is work with the control
systems who want to work with you, they're tough enough.

Ed Ford ATEDF@ASUVM.INRE.ASU.EDU
10209 N. 56th St., Scottsdale, Arizona 85253            Ph.602 991-4861
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