From: tlode@nyx.cs.du.edu (trygve lode)
Subject: Re: Any Available Jewish Men Out There??
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix @ U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 93 23:09:59 GMT

 
in <ewright.726256682@convex.convex.com>
    ewright@convex.com (Edward V. Wright) writes:
 
] In <1993Jan5.001418.4956@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> tlode@nyx.cs.du.edu (trygve lode)
] writes:
]
] >Actually, all I've claimed is that there are many men and women with an
] >interest in science and other intellectual pursuits,
]
] No, that is not all you've claimed.  You also claimed that there
] are few men and women interested in exercise, fitness, and sports
 
Not quite--I've claimed that I know and meet few men and women who are
interested in exercise, fitness, and sports; since I have never claimed
that the set of people that I know and meet is a representative sample
of the US population as a whole, it is not possible to conclude from the
statements that I have made that there are few such people nationwide or
worldwide.
 
] -- you have a hard time just finding anyone, male or female, to
] work out with at the gym.
 
True, true; the hardest part is finding anyone who will be consistent
about it--I understand that most people who sign up at a health club do
so because they think they ought to (rather than because of a tremendous
interest in exercise) and show up consistently only for the first few
weeks.  I've had the same problem with the people I've gotten to join me
at my gym.
 
] If there are few people interested in sports, and many interested
] in science, there must be more interested in science than in sports.
] So, where are they?
 
Oh, at parties I go to, SF cons, Mensa activities, meetings of the Mad
Scientist Club, astronomy club events, chess clubs, coffee houses,
science lectures given at universities, appropriate sections of
libraries and bookstores (out here we have the Tattered Cover bookstore
which has four floors with 50,000 square feet devoted to books and a
science section larger than most apartments), and specialty stores
selling things related to scientific interests.
 
You might particularly want to consider some of the informal talks given
at university math and physics departments; back when I was in college,
both the math and physics departments arranged various mini-seminars
given by visiting professors and other people doing interesting
research.  The most stringent requirement for attending was that, if you
showed up regularly, they liked it if you'd kick in a dollar or so to
the cookie fund which provided refreshments for people to eat while
socializing after the seminar.  (And, yes, these were open to the
public.)
 
] >but I can address your question anyway--there are a number of shops
] >around here that cater to people who do their own laboratory work at
] >home,
]
] A number?  What number?  Let's quantify this.
 
Be my guest--I've already got a life, so I really don't have the time
for an exhaustive survey.
 
] And how many sporting-goods stores and sports departments are there
] in the same area?  (This is a more reasonable comparison than health
] clubs.)
 
Probably more, but that's irrelevant.  I've never claimed that people
strongly interested in science make up a majority of the general
population, nor is it reasonable to assume that the ratio of sporting
goods stores to sports enthusiasts is equal to the ratio of lab supply
stores to science enthusiasts.
 
] >There are also plenty of mail-order companies that specialize in
] >this market.
]
] Plenty?  How many is "plenty?"  How does that compare to the number
] of mail-order companies selling fitness equipment?  More importantly,
] how do their sales compare?
 
Well, if you think that is in any way relevant, go right ahead and do
the research to quantify these values.  If nothing else, you can use all
the time it'll take as a new excuse for why you can't actually do
anything that would be likely to involve you in a satisfying relationship.
 
] However, you still haven't answered my question.  How many laboratories
] do you find selling memberships to the general public, the way health
] clubs do?
 
I didn't find any, but then I didn't look particularly hard.  I also
didn't find any public kitchens that sold memberships to the general
public, nor did I find any garages that sold memberships to the general
public, so by your reasoning, obviously there aren't any people out
there who are interested in cooking or automobiles.
 
] >A fully-stocked gym/health club is something that most people don't have
] >the space, money, or time to maintain in their own homes;
]
] Most people don't have the space, money, or time to maintain things
] like electron microscopes in their home, either.  If more people
] are interesting in using microscopes than Nautilus machines, why
] hasn't anyone tapped this market?  Given your own stated entrepreneurial
] talents, why haven't you?
 
Do you own an electron microscope?  If not, then I must conclude that
you have no interest in science whatsoever and the whole point is moot,
because you've got no reason to go looking for someone to share an
interest that you don't have in the first place.  (Unless, of course,
you're willing to accept that a lot of people express an interest in
science by keeping up with science magazines; it's much more difficult
to exercise by simply reading a magazine--though I'm sure many have
tried.)
 
] >A better analogy would be museums, planetariums (planetaria?), and
] >the like,
]
] Okay, then, let's consider museums.  The last time I visited the
] Science Place in Dallas, the largest exhibit (by far, taking up
] one entire building) was "the science of sports."
 
OK, that's one museum; the museums we have here in Denver don't seem to
have any comparable exhibits--and, for that matter, I don't recall a
"science of sports" exhibit in the museums I've visited in Chicago,
Saint Paul, London, Paris, or Munich.  We do, however, have a "OmniMax"
theater at the museum that shows science-oriented movies which are quite
well attended and we're midway through a five-month or so exhibit on the
Aztecs that is also quite popular, even though it's a bit pricey to get
in.
 
] >If you poke through a well-stocked newsstand, you'll probably find more
] >science publications than you will find fitness publications
]
] It depends on the newstand, I suppose.  But Writer's Market lists
] far more sports and exercise publications.  You should also look
] at how widely circulated those publications are.  You'll find
] "Muscle and Fitness" on every newstand -- even 7-11.  Scientific
] American will only be on the larger stands.
 
All the grocery stores and bookstores around here carry Scientific
American--as well as Discover, Popular Science, etc.  This would suggest
that there is a significant demand for such publications.
 
] >Remember, for your purposes, it's not necessary that there be a majority
] >of people more interested in intellectual than physical pursuits (not,
] >however, that these are in any respect mutually exclusive), but only
] >that there be a reasonable number and some way of locating them.
] >Indeed, if she happens to be the right one for you, just one is enough.
]
] But for *your* purpose -- proving your claim about more amateur
] scientists than amateur athletes -- one is certainly not enough.
 
I suppose that would be the case if it were my purpose--or even if I'd
ever so much as implied such a thing.  My claim is that I know more
science enthusiasts than fitness enthusiasts and that there are a fair
number of science enthusiasts out there.  That's quite different from
what you seem to think I'm claiming.
 
] >Alas, I've forgotten the prices, but they usually advertise Tasco,
] >Jason, Bushnell (and probably others) for their microscopes and
] >telescopes--not exactly high-end,
]
] To say the least.  Those are children's toys, not something any
] (informed) adult would purchase for himself.
 
True, which is not too surprising in a store that carries cement-filled
plastic weight sets and generally awful exercycles, which are also
children's toys and not something any (informed) adult would purchase
for himself.  Funny how that works--I bet serious amateur automobile
racers don't buy their nitrous systems at K-Mart and probably feel the
same way about K-Mart's auto parts section as you do about their
telescopes and I do about their exercise equipment.
 
] >but try to find a high-end piece of anything else, including exercise
] >equipment, at a K-Mart.
]
] I have no trouble spotting entire aisles of baseball, basketball,
] football, softball, hockey, and soccer equipment, jogging suits,
] tenis rackets, rowing machines, etc.  If you're going to say a
] $400 telescope is high-end but a $400 rowing machine isn't, perhaps
] you should explain why people are willing to spend so much more on
] a rowing machine (that doesn't even go anywhere) than on a telescope.
 
You've said on many, many occasions that you have no interest whatsoever
in any form of physical exercise; you probably haven't spent a lot of
time looking into the different types of exercise equipment and the
difference between high-quality stuff and lousy stuff.  Anybody
seriously interested in and knowlegeable about weightlifting wouldn't
buy K-Mart's exercise equipment any more than a serious amateur
astronomer would buy her telescopes there.  (Incidentally, $400
telescopes don't generally count as even close to high-end.)
 
] >SF cons, at least around here, usually include at least a few scientific
] >talks or panel discussions; the ones I've been to have been
] >well-attended and had a reasonable gender balance.
]
] If that's true, Denver's probably the only place in the United States
] where it is.  I have yet to attend an SF conference that was less than
] 75% (and usually closer to 90%) male.
 
Well, I can't claim to have gone to any cons outside of the Denver metro
area, but it seems pretty unlikely that Denver's the only part of the
world where the attendees are pretty evenly distributed by sex.  In a
way, it often seems like there are more women than men, not because
there necessarilly are, but because the men seem to be more likely to be
there to watch the various films and events while the women are more
likely to be interested in talking to other people at the con.  Since I
pretty much just hang around the lobbies and other "public" places at a
con rather than bothering with any of the events, I'd guess offhand that
I have at least twice as many women striking up conversations with me
than men.
 
] Note, also, that there are perhaps two dozen fulltime science-fiction
] writers in the entire United States.  How many sports writers are there?
 
Only two dozen full-time SF authors?  That sounds extremely low; where
did you get that figure?
 
] How many newspapers have a page, much less a section, devoted to science?
 
Denver has two newspapers:  The Denver Post and The Rocky Mountain News;
both of them do.
 
Trygve
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