HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: bentonh@tekig1.PEN.TEK.COM (Benton Holzwarth)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.homebuilt
Subject: Re: Painting strategies?
Date: 19 Nov 92 19:59:42 GMT
Reply-To: Benton.Holzwarth@tek.com
Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Beaverton,  OR.

In article <lkmqf8k@quantum.on.ca> aboyd@quantum.on.ca (Andrew Boyd) writes:
>The weight of paint is not insignificant ... see the discussion of
>the unpainted Streak Eagle in the rec.avaition.military.

    Also note that the weight of (re)painting has been implicated
in rearward CG adjustments of control surfaces, changing flutter
characteristics, for the worse...

    Actually it was more the distribution of the paint, rather than
absolute total, and the problem lies in the paint-room 'jigging'.
Just as with the aircraft as a whole, CG is often more important
than gross.

    Benton
    Benton.Holzwarth@tek.com

Newsgroups: rec.aviation.homebuilt
From: "Eldo Hildebrand, UNB,Fredericton,NB" <ELDO@UNB.CA>
Subject: Re: Wanted: Info on Cri-Cri
Organization: The University of New Brunswick
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 16:16:16 GMT

In article <15669@suns7.crosfield.co.uk> adf@crosfield.co.uk (alex france) writes:
>In article <1992Nov20.131202.11919@linus.mitre.org> gbraun@beech.mitre.org (Gary A. Braun) writes:
>>I am looking for anyone who has personal experience with building, owning or
>>flying a Cri-Cri.  For those that don't know, the Cri-Cri is a tiny, 1-person,
>>twin engined airplane.  I heard a lot about it 10 years ago and I think Zenair
>>of Canada stills sells plans.  It seems like an inexpensive way to have an
>>aerobatic airplane (British Ferries has a aerobatic team using these), ...
>                     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>That's Brittany Ferries, who are French!
>
>Interestingly (and quite logically, I guess) in many countries you need
>a twin rating to fly these. This is the case in Britain, though not
>apparantly in its homeland of France where the 'Flying Flea' has some
>dispensation over this. Apparantly the yaw with one engine out is
>insignificant. On the other hand, so is the climb (er, sink) rate!

Interestingly enough you don't need a twin rating in Canada for
these since they are single place.  In fact Chris Heintz of Zenair
pointed out to me last weekend that you don't need a twin rating in
Canada even for a DC 3!  HOWEVER you may only fly the DC-3 alone
with freight not passengers.  Apparently as long as the aircraft
requires no crew (pilot only) you may fly a twin in Canada without a
twin rating as long as you are alone in the aircraft.  Obviously one
might want to know a little about the operation of a twin to avoid
killing youself.

PS. for those interested in the Cri-Cri (or Cricket as Chris called
it in English) Zenair did market the plans and kits at one time but
Chris told me last weekend that they haven't sold any kits for a while.
You may check with them at Zenair LTD.
                           Huronia Airport
                           Midland, Ont.  L4R 4K8

or Zenith Aircraft Company
   PO. Box 650
   Mexico, MO 65265 USA

Eldo Hildebrand (ELDO@UNB.CA)
University of New Brunswick
P.O. Box 4400
Fredericton,N.B. E3B 5A3
Tel. 506 453 4521
Fax  506 453 3568
From: ginsberg@t.Stanford.EDU (Matthew L. Ginsberg)
Subject: Re: Flying homebuilts outside USA.
Keywords: regulations.
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University.
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 01:52:18 GMT

In article <1992Nov17.115817@xerox.com> spencer.wbst129@xerox.com (Andrew Spencer) writes:
>
>If I were to build say, a Lancair, could I fly it in Canada or Mexico?

I've flown my Eagle in Canada.  You have to get permission first (they
issue a special airworthiness certificate valid for a restricted time),
but the Canadians were very helpful about arranging it.

						Matt Ginsberg


Newsgroups: rec.aviation.homebuilt
From: zwork@starfighter.den.mmc.com (Michael Corvin)
Subject: Re: Flying homebuilts outside USA.
Keywords: regulations.
Organization: Martin Marietta Astronautics Group
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 20:54:09 GMT

In article <1992Nov18.161346.19885@cbnews.cb.att.com>, tel@cbnews.cb.att.com (thomas.e.lester) writes:
|> In article <1992Nov17.115817@xerox.com> spencer.wbst129@xerox.com (Andrew Spencer) writes:
|> >
|> >If I were to build say, a Lancair, could I fly it in Canada or Mexico?
|> >
|>     No!  The US experimental registration is restricted to US air space.
|> -- 
|> 	-----------------------------------------------------------------
|> 	Tom Lester				att!cblph!tel
|> 	Sonerai IIL (under TEST)		(614) 860-3259
|> 	N4LX 					(614) 927-8106


It must be possible in some way.  The around the world race last year
(reported in AOPA Pilot a couple of months ago) included a Glasair.
So, how's it done?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael Corvin 	      PP-ASEL, PP-G		zwork@starfighter.den.mmc.com
just another spaced rocket scientist at    Martin Marietta Astronautics Group
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
===============    My views, not Martin Marietta's   ========================
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.homebuilt
From: milgram@eng.umd.edu (Judah Milgram)
Subject: Re: Mini 500 Heli
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 92 05:13:00 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland

In article <uh311ae.722024630@sunmanager> uh311ae@sunmanager.LRZ-Muenchen.DE (Henrik Klagges) writes:

>>How is direction of rotation important in a dynamic rollover situation?
>
>You'll get retreating blade stall, resulting in loss of lift on that side.
>On a standard US helicopter, that is going to be the left side, i.e. you
>roll left. On a non-standard one, you roll right ...

As has been pointed out, dynamic rollover is a ground accident
scenario, has nothing to do with retreating blade stall. 

Presumably you are referring to the handling qualities problem
accompanying severe retreating blade stall at high advance ratios.
This is most usually described as involving an uncommanded pitch up,
regardless of rotation direction. It seems some aircraft tend to roll
too, but left cyclic is still left cyclic, and right is right.
Regardless of rotation direction.

But there's nothing like the voice of experience - perhaps pilots who
have flown both left and right rotating machines will offer comment.


Gruss,


Judah Milgram
From: Charles.K.Scott@dartmouth.edu (Charles K. Scott)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.homebuilt
Subject: Re: Painting strategies?
Date: 18 Nov 92 21:13:49 GMT
 <1992Nov18.161135.19666@cbnews.cb.att.com>
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH
X-Posted-From: InterNews1.0a5@newshost.dartmouth.edu

In article <9211172124.AA02943@etec.com> stivers@etec.com (Robert
Stivers) writes:

>My partner and I are far enough along with our Kitfox IV to start
>thinking about how we're going to paint her. With no experience, is it 
>too difficult to do ourselves?

Others have addressed the actual paint application and cost, I just
wanted to mention a word of caution.  Using the high pressure spray
guns creates a great deal of overspray.  The overspray hangs in the air
in lethal concentrations for surprisingly long periods.  Urethane paint
is *HIGHLY* toxic and has killed people who took improper precautions. 
I read of an experienced and popular builder down in Florida who
painted a part of his latest project in a cramped and unventalated
workshop with no mask.  It took him several months, but eventually he
died.  His death was positively attributed to the vapors he inhaled
while painting.

If you choose to paint the aircraft yourself, make sure you use a mask
that offers the necessary protection.

Corky Scott
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.homebuilt
From: kaufman@Xenon.Stanford.EDU (Marc T. Kaufman)
Subject: Re: Dynamic Rollover (Was Re: Mini 500 Heli)
Reply-To: kaufman@CS.Stanford.EDU
Organization: CS Department, Stanford University, California, USA
Date: 18 Nov 92 03:59:06 GMT

mpaton@oakhill.sps.mot.com (Michael J Paton) writes:

>Furthermore it really depends on what the pilot's trained reaction to a problem
>actually is. Typically an engine failure or throttle chop (in say an R22) will
>result in a yaw to the left, and require right pedal (amongst other very
>important things). If the reaction in the pilot's head is along the lines of
>"Engine failure, add right pedal!", then there will be trouble if the 
>helicopter is an Aerospatiale. One might well argue that the proper reaction
>ought to be, "Left yaw, add right pedal!" which wouldn't get one into trouble.

>I have been flown in an Aerospatiale 350 by a pilot who had only flown 
>Robinsons and to my surprise he had no trouble at all. 

After flying helicoptors for a while, you don't *think* about which pedal
to push.  You react to the yaw.  Aerospatiale pilots tell me it is no
trouble at all to shift between them and, say, Bells.  If you automatically
push on a pedal in response to "engine failure" you almost certainly will
push too much or too little, even if you push the correct pedal.

An analogous situation is engine failure in a twin engine airplane.  First
you correct the yaw with the rudder -- automatically.  Then, you figure out
which engine died.  You don't have to know which pedal to push.

-- 
Marc Kaufman (kaufman@CS.Stanford.EDU)
From: avi@golem.apple.com (Avi Weiss)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.homebuilt
Subject: Berkut Construction
Date: 19 Nov 92 03:30:28 GMT
Organization: Apple Computer, Inc.

The more I read about the Berkut, the more interested I become in owing one.
However, I'm not so sure I want to undertake the project of building one. Are
there any other "alternative" construction methods? (aside from purchasing a
used one). 



- Avi 

--------------------
Avi Weiss 

email: (avi@apple.com)
phone: (408) 974-0582

Of course I don't speak for Apple...they don't pay me enough to do so.
From: adf@crosfield.co.uk (alex france)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.homebuilt
Subject: Re: Wanted: Info on Cri-Cri
Date: 23 Nov 92 13:37:05 GMT
Organization: Crosfield Electronics, Hemel Hempstead, United Kingdom.

In article <1992Nov20.131202.11919@linus.mitre.org> gbraun@beech.mitre.org (Gary A. Braun) writes:
>I am looking for anyone who has personal experience with building, owning or  
>flying a Cri-Cri.  For those that don't know, the Cri-Cri is a tiny, 1-person, 
>twin engined airplane.  I heard a lot about it 10 years ago and I think Zenair 
>of Canada stills sells plans.  It seems like an inexpensive way to have an  
>aerobatic airplane (British Ferries has a aerobatic team using these), ...
                     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
That's Brittany Ferries, who are French!

Interestingly (and quite logically, I guess) in many countries you need
a twin rating to fly these. This is the case in Britain, though not
apparantly in its homeland of France where the 'Flying Flea' has some
dispensation over this. Apparantly the yaw with one engine out is
insignificant. On the other hand, so is the climb (er, sink) rate!

Alex.

# Alex France, Crosfield Electronics, | Phone: +44 442 230000 xt.3541 #
# Hemel Hempstead, HP2 7RH, England.  | Email: adf@crosfield.co.uk    #
# AA5A, G-BEZI - more of a 'buzzin' than a 'hummin' Grumman.          #
From: spenny@sw.stratus.com (Steve Pennypacker)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.homebuilt
Subject: Re: Cozee/Long Eze Prices
Date: 18 Nov 92 16:34:52 GMT
Organization: Stratus Computer, Inc.
NNTP-Posting-Host: wiley.ts.stratus.com

In article <1992Nov17.232025.2@ccla.demon.co.uk>, dblack@ccla.demon.co.uk (David Black) writes:
> 
> Can somebody suggest typical built prices for IFR examples of the
> above.

Yup... Trade-A-Plane can.  You should be able to find a copy at a local 
airport (don't know about in the U.K., though).  Just about every homebuilt
that's for sale is listed there.  There's always lots of Long-EZs, but
very few Cozys (this reflects the number of kits which have been built).

As a very rough estimate, I'd say maybe $25,000-$40,000 U.S. for a
reasonable IFR Long-EZ.  Of course there will be examples outside this range.

-- 
     Steve Pennypacker		     PP-ASEL

     spenny@wiley.ts.stratus.com     Stephen_Pennypacker@vos.stratus.com
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.homebuilt
From: sharpe@symcom.math.uiuc.edu (Randall Sharpe)
Subject: Ultra Lights
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 12:54:28 GMT

I am interested in building an ultra light airplane, but cannot seem 
to find anything about them. They were all the rage a while ago but
now nothing. Can somebody direct me to a place where I can get plans?
Thanks.

Newsgroups: rec.aviation.homebuilt
From: arthurp@engin.umich.edu (Charles James Mitchell)
Subject: looking for an engine
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 92 19:08:42 EST
Organization: University of Michigan Engineering, Ann Arbor

Hello again,
    The Mr. Mulligan IS a Howard DGA, however when he built it
he was trying to make a big clipped wing Monocoupe because some
races had been won by the modified monocoupe.  He figured that
it he built a bigger airplane with a similar shape, but with a
600 hp engine modified to around 850 hp (??) he would be able to
run away with the trophies.  He did just that for a year, but
threw a propeller blade and came down where an airplane shouldn't
come down.  The airplane was a complete mess.

    My dad's airplane is the smae shape as well, but 3/4 the
dimensions of Mr. Mulligan, and it isn't designed to go 350 mph
or make 8 G pylon turns.  (Possible if 8 G is not sustained
otherwise the pilot blacks out <no G suit> and the aircraft
bleeds too much speed)

    The sturcture is welded steel tubing for the fuselage tail
surfaces and landing gear.  The wing is made from two spruce spars
with plywood ribs.  The aircraft will be covered with fabric
except for the aluminum and composite cowl and plywood skin from
the firewall back to the aft end of the cabin.

    The fuselage and landinggear are finished structurally.  The
current projects are instrumentation and wiring, fiting the cabin,
and finishing the wing ribs.

    Again if anyone has a friend who knows a guy who met someone
that would like to get rid of an engin of 120 hp to 170 hp especially
a radial please send word my way.

                                            Charles Mitchell
                                            arthurp@engin.umich.edu
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.homebuilt
From: uh311ae@sunmanager.LRZ-Muenchen.DE (Henrik Klagges)
Subject: Re: Mini 500 Heli
Organization: Leibniz-Rechenzentrum, Muenchen (Germany)
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 18:23:50 GMT

milgram@eng.umd.edu (Judah Milgram) writes:

>How is direction of rotation important in a dynamic rollover situation?

You'll get retreating blade stall, resulting in loss of lift on that side.
On a standard US helicopter, that is going to be the left side, i.e. you
roll left. On a non-standard one, you roll right ...

Newsgroups: rec.aviation.homebuilt
From: paul.burnett@pcs.sj.ca.us (Paul Burnett) 
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.homebuilt
Subject: Re: Painting strategies?
Date: 19 Nov 92 20:42:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: PCS-BBS - San Jose, CA - 408-270-4085
Reply-To: paul.burnett@pcs.sj.ca.us (Paul Burnett) 

TO: Charles.K.Scott@dartmouth.edu (Charles K. Scott)

CKS>>>Nitrate Lacquers (don't think anyone makes these anymore...)

Wanna bet?  <G>  The cheap spray cans of paint at the local hardware
store are nitrocellulose-based lacquer.

   >>>NIOSH-T23 Positive pressure supplied-air systems - These are usually full
   >>>facemasks or even suits! They are supplied with a small air pump that is
   >>>installed *away* from the painting area with a clean fresh-air source.
   >>>They run 175 - 600 dollars (!). Of course, the serious homebuilder should
   >>>want to fabricate such a gadget (I'm in the process now...)

Oh, dear - this is not _quite_ as hazardous as making your own SCUBA
system, but it approaches it.  The hose is the weak point in such a
system - you don't want to kink it - swimming pool vacuuming hose is
about right - you want low pressure/high volume - a blower is better
than a pump.  Everything's gotta be clean-room clean - you don't want
any plastic or lubricants outgassing into your lungs. The air pump
_must_ not have any oil whatsoever exposed to the breathing air - the
film of oil lubricating a cylinder wall will be heated and vaporised,
and condense in your lungs; worse, the heat buildup in the compression
cycle will partially combust some of that oil, giving you some carbon
monoxide to breathe.  This is just off the top of my head - if it sounds
like I'm trying to talk you guys out of fabbing your own SCBA system,
you're right.

CKS>>>Doing this will not only clear the area fast, it will also result
in a much
   >>>better paint job since overspray & dirt will be carried away

Yeah, and all the makeup air will carry bugs and leaves and dirt _in_ to
the area unless you filter it, too.  <G>
---
 . QMPro 1.0 41-8688 . ...from San Jose, CA
                                                                                                                                              
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.homebuilt
From: dblack@ccla.demon.co.uk (David Black)
Subject: Cozee/Long Eze Prices
Organization: Crucible Computers Ltd.
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 22:38:26 +0000


Can somebody suggest typical built prices for IFR examples of the
above.

/Dave Black
=
David Black             49 Woodgrange Drive     dblack@ccla.demon.co.uk
Crucible Computers      Southend On Sea         dblack@cix.compulink.co.uk    
Networking Consultant   Essex UK SS1 2SD        Flies AA5B G-NGBI
                                
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.homebuilt
From: masys@nlm.nih.gov (Dr. Daniel R. Masys)
Subject: Re: Painting strategies?
Organization: National Library of Medicine
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 92 18:54:10 GMT

In article <297.148.uupcb@pcs.sj.ca.us> paul.burnett@pcs.sj.ca.us (Paul Burnett)  writes:
>
>CKS>If you choose to paint the aircraft yourself, make sure you use a mask
>   >that offers the necessary protection.
>
>In any case, I advise everyone to apply exhaust ventilation _first_ and
>respiratory protection _second_ - and understand how to do the
>respiratory protection properly.
>
This explains why the DuPont Imron rep who gave a tent talk at Oshkosh
spent almost the entire time talking about the positive pressure mask
ventilation requirements for handling the stuff, and almost nothing
about how to actually select or apply it.  His sole message was something
like "this is an industrial product.  DuPont doesn't want to sell it to
anybody under any circumstance, if they don't practice industrial safety."


Dan Masys
masys@nlm.nih.gov
From: mpeters@wtcd.DaytonOH.NCR.COM (Michael Peters)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.homebuilt
Subject: Re: Ultra Lights
Date: 19 Nov 92 14:14:18 GMT
Reply-To: mpeters@wtcd.DaytonOH.NCR.COM (Michael Peters)
Distribution: usa
Organization: WIN Management Services - Dayton, OH

sharpe@symcom.math.uiuc.edu (Randall Sharpe) writes:
>I am interested in building an ultra light airplane, but cannot seem 
>to find anything about them. They were all the rage a while ago but
>now nothing. Can somebody direct me to a place where I can get plans?
>Thanks.

Subscribe to:  Ultralight Flying! Magazine
               P.O. Box 6009
               Chattanooga TN 37401-9981

               Tel: (615) 629-5375

Give them a call and request the back issue that has the ultralight and
light experimental aircraft directory.  It's $3.95 for back issues.
This is also the official magazine of the USUA (United States Ultralight
Association).
               
-- 
Michael Peters
WIN Management Services
Michael.Peters@wtcd.DaytonOH.NCR.COM
...!uunet!ncrcom!wtcp!wtcd!mpeters
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.homebuilt
From: pilla@cbnewsi.cb.att.com (michael.a.pilla)
Subject: Re: Prop-speed reduction units and torsional vibration
Organization: AT&T
Distribution: na
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 14:35:49 GMT

In article <1992Nov16.212243.15947@dartvax.dartmouth.edu> Charles.K.Scott@dartmouth.edu (Charles K. Scott) writes:
>What is a torsional coupling and how does it work?

I believe Molt Taylor pioneered their use in homebuilts by
installing one of the Dodge Corporation's "fluid clutches".
If I remember correctly, it essentially consisted of two "wavy"
plates with small "shot" (on the order of shotgun pellets) in
and around the plates.  The two plates could mvoe relative to
each other; one attached to the drive shaft and the other to the
prop.  The relative motion allowed the pulses of the engine
firing to dissipate - something about the prop being a huge
flywheel causing most of the problem...  You could vary the
pseudo viscous damping by controlling the amount of shot put in
the unit.  One interesting side effect was the difficulty in
hand propping the unit.  As I understand it, if you "jiggled"
the unit back and forth, you might be able to catch some of the
shot and be able to give a swing.  Also, as I recall, the Dodge
corporation became quite concerned about the use of their
product for aircraft purposes...

Mike Pilla

Newsgroups: rec.aviation.homebuilt
From: spencer.wbst129@xerox.com (Andrew Spencer)
Subject: Flying homebuilts outside USA.
Originator: spencer@triton
Keywords: regulations.
Organization: Xerox Corporation
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 16:58:17 GMT


If I were to build say, a Lancair, could I fly it in Canada or Mexico?

thanks,
andrew.
-- 
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-       _!_       -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
Andrew Spencer              +-+-+-+ ______(_)______ +-+-+-+   Xerox Corporation
spencer.wbst129@xerox.com   -+-+-+-      ! ! !      -+-+-+-   Webster, New York
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
From: paul.burnett@pcs.sj.ca.us (Paul Burnett) 
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.homebuilt
Subject: Re: Painting strategies?
Date: 19 Nov 92 20:42:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: PCS-BBS - San Jose, CA - 408-270-4085
Reply-To: paul.burnett@pcs.sj.ca.us (Paul Burnett) 

TO: earlb@ssd.intel.com (Earl Brabandt)


  >>In any case, I advise everyone to apply exhaust ventilation _first_ and
  >>respiratory protection _second_ - and understand how to do the
  >>respiratory protection properly.

EB>It's my understanding that no filter masks are approved for isocyanates.

Mine too.  That's why I emphasize that respirator users must understand
what they're doing - unfortunately, many don't.  :(

EB>Is detection the only issue, or are the carbon filters ineffective at
  >filtering the isocyanates as well?

They probably will adsorb some, but you can't tell when the adsorbant is
"full" and starts passing it - that's why you shouldn't use carbon
filters.

---
 . QMPro 1.0 41-8688 . ...from San Jose, CA
From: paul.burnett@pcs.sj.ca.us (Paul Burnett)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.homebuilt
Subject: Re: Painting strategies?
Date: 18 Nov 92 16:03:00 GMT
Article-I.D.: pcs.289.148.uupcb
Reply-To: paul.burnett@pcs.sj.ca.us (Paul Burnett)
Distribution: world
Organization: PCS-BBS - San Jose, CA - 408-270-4085

TO: tel@cbnews.cb.att.com (thomas.e.lester)

 >>My partner and I are far enough along with our Kitfox IV to start
 >>thinking about how we're going to paint her.

T>      I would suggest that you take it up through primer by yourself.

Does anybody ever consider the weight of paint reducing the payload of
the plane?  I know it's not much <G>, but you could probably get a few
pounds of paint on a small plane, couldn't you?
---
 . OLX 3.0 07-2042 . ...from San Jose, CA
                                                                                                                                                                        
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.homebuilt