HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: dzik@access.digex.com (Joseph Dzikiewicz)
Subject: Re: Copper Beeches
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 16:32:53 GMT

In article <1992Nov18.131539.29426@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> ggg9y@poe.acc.Virginia.EDU (Garth G. Groff) writes:
>
>And yes, he did recycle some plot devices (like the
>bust by the window).

More than just plot devices.  I recall some scenes and text reproduced
in some stories.  Especially scenes at the start of the stories, with
Holmes and Watson sitting around together.

I believe, but would not swear to it, that one of these was the replay
of the August Dupin bit of telling a person what he is thinking after
observing him for five minutes or so.


Newsgroups: alt.fan.holmes
From: adavis@mcl.bdm.com (Arthur Davis)
Subject: Re: What are the MUST-HAVE reference works?
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 92 05:11:47 GMT
Organization: BDM International, Inc.


You should perhaps start by getting a very helpful copy of the canon,
namely The Annotated Sherlock Homes, edited by William S. Baring-Gould.
It has rather recently become available in a HUGE 1 volume addition from
Wing Books for retail $29.95.  It has a helpful bibliography which dates
from the mid-sixties.  Not to mention the usefulness of the annotation
job.  Also useful in spite of being dated is The Private Life of Sherlock
Holmes from the thirties.  It is also easy to get and cheap from Mysterious
Press.  Paperback for $8.95 or so.  Author Vincent Starrett.

Newsgroups: alt.fan.holmes
From: clavazzi@nyx.cs.du.edu (The_Doge)
Subject: Re: TV, not codex (was: Copper Beeches)
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Keywords: Heathen Bastard
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 92 17:37:57 GMT

In article <BxxzMG.F0D@ccu.umanitoba.ca> tvorst@ccu.umanitoba.ca (Tommy Che Vorst) writes:
>What?!?  You dare to compare the TV show to the Master's text?!?  Mr.
>Orost, you are lucky to be alive.  Return that book now, so someone
>deserving of it can buy and appreciate it, before God himself smites you
>for your blasphemy.
>
	Now, let's not work ourselves up into a lather.  >:-)>  Even a loyal
old Sherlockian like myself will admit that the Grenada folks have
*occasionally* improved on the originals.  I thought their version of "The
Greek Interpreter", for example, was a bit more satisfying than the original.
But I'll also admit that this is the exception, not the rule.

The_Doge

Newsgroups: alt.fan.holmes
From: tvorst@ccu.umanitoba.ca (Tommy Che Vorst)
Subject: Copper Beeches
Organization: University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Canada
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 02:54:20 GMT

Say what you like, but the Copper Beeches story contains one of the most
interesting lines in the whole of the Canon.  Watson has just remarked
upon the beauty of the Hampshire countryside, leaving Holmes to remark:
"....it is one of the curses of a mind with a turn like mine that I must
look at everything with reference to my own special subject.  You look at
these scattered houses, and you are impressed by their beauty.  I look at
them, and the only thought which comes to me is a feeling of their
isolation and of the impunity with which crime may be comitted there."

Clearly, Holmes was right in feeling that his abilities could be a curse.
This also sounds like it may have inspired Ann Rice in her creation of
alienated, isolated souls in her works.

+-------------------------------------------------------------------------+
  Tommy ( Yogi )                              Dept. of English, UofM
                (the REAL UofM - nyaaaah Vid! (Minn.)) 
                     email:  tvorst@ccu.umanitoba.ca  
            ....residences in Canada, France, and Holland.
                       "YAAH! DEATH TO OATMEAL!"
                   Remember: it's just my opinion.
+-------------------------------------------------------------------------+
From: tvorst@ccu.umanitoba.ca (Tommy Che Vorst)
Subject: TV, not codex (was: Copper Beeches)
Keywords: Heathen Bastard
Organization: University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Canada
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 02:44:39 GMT

What?!?  You dare to compare the TV show to the Master's text?!?  Mr.
Orost, you are lucky to be alive.  Return that book now, so someone
deserving of it can buy and appreciate it, before God himself smites you
for your blasphemy.

Jeremy Brett is OK, (and don't tell me I don't know what I'm talking about-
I've seen almost every show, and the stage play with Brett and Hardwicke
in London) but come on!


+-------------------------------------------------------------------------+
  Tommy ( Yogi )                              Dept. of English, UofM
                (the REAL UofM - nyaaaah Vid! (Minn.)) 
                     email:  tvorst@ccu.umanitoba.ca  
            ....residences in Canada, France, and Holland.
                       "YAAH! DEATH TO OATMEAL!"
                   Remember: it's just my opinion.
+-------------------------------------------------------------------------+ 


 

Newsgroups: alt.fan.holmes
From: e92_anh@vaxkab.lne.kth.se ()
Subject: Re: BIG BAD JOHNNY
Reply-To: e92_anh@vaxkab.lne.kth.se ()
Organization: School of EE, Royal Institute of Technolgy
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 11:54:19 GMT

This has been said before: This group is NOT dealing with 'actor' John
Holmes. Please get out!
Newsgroups: alt.fan.holmes
From: ggg9y@poe.acc.Virginia.EDU (Garth G. Groff)
Subject: Re: Copper Beeches
Organization: University of Virginia
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 15:44:16 GMT

COPPER BEECHES

Yes, copper beeches are a type of tree.  The name comes
from the leaves which are a deep reddish color.  They
are quite common here in Virginia.

~S
--
Garth (Haridas) Groff
"Not yet famous author"
ggg9y@poe.acc.virginia.EDU         Chant "Govinda Bohlo Hare"
Newsgroups: alt.fan.holmes
From: anthony@panzer.b17b.ingr.com (Anthony Shipman)
Subject: Re: BIG BAD JOHNNY
Organization: Intergraph
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 20:21:49 GMT

In article <1992Nov17.115419.21403@kth.se>, e92_anh@vaxkab.lne.kth.se () writes:
|> This has been said before: This group is NOT dealing with 'actor' John
|> Holmes. Please get out!

Apparently you don't know that Sherlock Holmes is actually John Holmes'
great-grandfather. The details of the well-endowed Sherlock's anatomy can be
found in "The Case of the Throbbing Stick."
Newsgroups: alt.fan.holmes
From: clavazzi@nyx.cs.du.edu (The_Doge)
Subject: Re: Copper Beeches
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 92 15:11:49 GMT

In article <Bxz1yu.HBw@access.digex.com> dzik@access.digex.com (Joseph Dzikiewicz) writes:
>In article <1992Nov18.131539.29426@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> ggg9y@poe.acc.Virginia.EDU (Garth G. Groff) writes:
>>
>>And yes, he did recycle some plot devices (like the
>>bust by the window).
>
>More than just plot devices.  I recall some scenes and text reproduced
>in some stories.  Especially scenes at the start of the stories, with
>Holmes and Watson sitting around together.
>
>I believe, but would not swear to it, that one of these was the replay
>of the August Dupin bit of telling a person what he is thinking after
>observing him for five minutes or so.

	That's correct.  The sequence appears in "The Resident Patient" and
then again, verbatim, in "The Cardboard Box".  There are some other recurring
themes as well; notice how many of the most admirable women in the Canon are
named "Violet", for example!

The_Doge
Newsgroups: alt.fan.holmes
From: ewadams@netcom.com (Ernest Adams)
Subject: What are the MUST-HAVE reference works?
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 19:28:46 GMT

As you may know, Electronic Arts has recently released a computer
game called "The Lost Files of Sherlock Holmes," which has achieved
critical success and been praised by Holmes aficianados as well.

We intend to develop this into a larger product line, but in order
to do this, it is essential not to have Holmes or Watson do anything
which would be counter to their basic natures. Our question is this:
what reference works, other than the Canon itself, should we consult?
These should be the must-have works any serious Holmesian scholar
would have, and be authoritative enough to be accepted by the
Holmesian community generally.

Can anyone provide advice?

Ernest Adams
Electronic Arts

Newsgroups: alt.fan.holmes
From: clavazzi@nyx.cs.du.edu (The_Doge)
Subject: Re: What are the MUST-HAVE reference works?
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 92 15:26:32 GMT

In article <1992Nov19.192846.7767@netcom.com> ewadams@netcom.com (Ernest Adams) writes:
>As you may know, Electronic Arts has recently released a computer
>game called "The Lost Files of Sherlock Holmes," which has achieved
>critical success and been praised by Holmes aficianados as well.
>
>We intend to develop this into a larger product line, but in order
>to do this, it is essential not to have Holmes or Watson do anything
>which would be counter to their basic natures. Our question is this:
>what reference works, other than the Canon itself, should we consult?
>These should be the must-have works any serious Holmesian scholar
>would have, and be authoritative enough to be accepted by the
>Holmesian community generally.
>
>Can anyone provide advice?
>
	This is a tough one since there's so much material out there.  Here
are a few suggestions:
	"The Annotated Sherlock Holmes", ed. by W.S. Baring-Gould.  All the
stories and novels with copious notes and background information by 
Sherlockian scholars.  I'm told you can find this for as little as $19.95 in
the one-volume edition
	"Sherlock Holmes by Gas Lamp", ed. by Philip Shreffler.  This is a
collection of classic Sherlockian papers from "The Baker Street Journal", of
which Shreffler is the editor
	"Sherlock Holmes of Baker Street" by W.S. Baring-Gould.  This is a
speculative "biography" of Holmes that matches up quite well with the Canon.
I'm not sure whether or not it's still in print, though.
	I'm sure other folks here will have suggestions as well.
The_Doge



Newsgroups: alt.fan.holmes
From: rao@moose.cccs.umn.edu (Rao Akella)
Subject: Re: Copper Beeches
Reply-To: rao@moose.cccs.umn.edu
Organization: Colon Cancer Control Study, University of Minnesota, Minneapolis
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 00:24:26 GMT


Not to find fault with The Great Master, but I couldn't help but feel that
"Copper Beeches" had a pretty weak story line.  There was neither much
sleuthing nor any deduction involved.  Consider a precis of the episode:

Woman comes to Holmes with story of strange employer and asks for advice about
taking up employment.  Holmes responds that he doesn't have any facts, so he
can't help her.  Woman is smart enough and does enough groundwork to detect the
bearded stranger with the help of her mirror, and the captive in the room
upstairs.  Woman cables Holmes and Watson, who show up (after the woman is
smart and capable enough to lock the servant woman in the cellar) only to find
that the chicken has flown the coop.  Owner of the house catches The Great
Detective and Company redhanded, but ends up getting chewed up by his own nice
doggie (a la Baskervilles).  Then it turns out the servant knew all about
everything all along.

I ask you, where does Holmes get to use his unique skills in this plot?  Dash
it, even Lestrade or the local constable could've done exactly the same thing
with exactly the same information.  Holmes didn't deduce anything in advance,
and always seemed a step behind, taking action only after everything had become
crystal clear.

Flame me if you will, cruel world, but I was definitely disappointed.

Come to think of it, "The Solitary Cyclist" had pretty much the same plot too.

-- Rao Akella    <rao@moose.cccs.umn.edu, rao%moose@umnacvx.bitnet>
From: rlm2910@ritvax.isc.rit.edu
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: WHATEVER
Date: 23 Nov 92 23:41:56 GMT
Reply-To: rlm2910@ritvax.isc.rit.edu
Organization: Rochester Institute of Technology


	Great new Newsgroup!

	For those wondering about the Silmarillion, read it! I have found it to
be the best of Tolkien's writings. Of course it was also the work that he
considered his greatest labor of love. These stories were the basis for
evrything else written concerning the LotR.
	If you have seen the book called "The Lost Tales, The History of Middle
Earth" I would highly recommend the first two volumes. They are much richer in
the description of the stories that became (in some cases) chapters in the
Silmarillion (those who have read them know how much of the story-telling was
lost. For examplethe difference sbetween the Fall of Gondolin  as toldin "The
Silmarillion" and in "The Lost Tales"). Of course I am a Tolkien fanatic and am
possesed by the desire to purchase every Tolkien book that appears on the
market. Incidentally The Picture of J.R.R. Tolkien is out.

	I also saw (and bought) A 50th anniversary edition of The Hobbit (gold
leather bound in a case) cost about $35 and is beautifully done. There is also
version of LotR out that is red leather bound and in a case (I think Houghton
Mifflin meant them to be companions but that is not explicitly stated
anywhere). Keep in mind this is in the USA.

	Boromir, A man who desires to overcome the shadow so greatly that the
ring is able to work on him subtly, he starts to believe that he can use the
ring to defeat Sauron. I don't think that he is a "bad person" he is somewhat
Machiavellian, and again, the ring begins to exert influence over him.
Remember, the ring is a somewhat sentient object, it slipped from Isildur's
hand, and Gom's   . Tolkien implies it did this purposefully in an attempt to
return to it's master.

	One last thing, more disturbing to me is the fact that Saruman was
corrupted in his quest for the ring. Was it *the ring* which did this or greed.
How inconsistent is it for a Maia osf Manwe to be swbbut ended evil (and, well,
impotent).

	Whew!

	Rich (who has no sig, yet)


Again he started with good intention (like Boromir)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: kyle@Csli.Stanford.EDU (Kyle Wohlmut)
Subject: Re: Machines named by Tolkien's characters
Followup-To: alt.fan.tolkien
Organization: Rocking Pig Enterprises
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 21:16:17 GMT

In article <1992Nov23.191556.6156@news2.cis.umn.edu>
rao@moose.cccs.umn.edu (The Man Who Knew) writes:
>
>Not to mention Hobbit Travel, a tourism agency (I'm not connected with it in
>any way, BTW)...

In LA the finest SF/Fantasy bookstore is called 'A change of
Hobbit'... I think there's one in Berkeley, too...
>
>Trivia: What was the password which Gandalf used to open the portal into Moria?
>No peeking now!  Actually, this one's quite easy (hint: it sounds like a big
>fruit!)
>
That would be 'Mellon,' Elvish (or is it Quenya?) for 'Friend...'
Don't need to go into the details here I trust.  C'mon, pick a
difficult one!

>Seen on a button:
>	Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for you are crunchy and
>	taste good with ketchup.
>

Seen on some colossal geek's T-shirt: 'When brain-blasts are outlawed,
only chaotic-neutral magic-users will have brain-blasts.'

                       /	 i am as sad
/'''                   -         as the song
c-OO    Kyle Wohlmut   /         of a soudanese jackal
   \    (actual size)  -         who is wailing for the blood red
  -                    /         moon he cannot reach and rip
                       -                                              
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: chris@cs.wm.edu (Chris A. Larrieu)
Subject: Re: Lord of the Rings - the movie?
Organization: The College of William and Mary
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 22:21:03 GMT

The movie does indeed exist, and is actually pretty good (as far as
any adaptation or abridgement of Tolkien possibly can be good).  I
really don't know any specifics about the movie (like who created it,
etc), but gollum was done pretty well --really slimy and nasty, but in
a comic sort of way ('nasty hobitses, we hates them doesn't we my
precious...good Baggins').  The animation is perhaps not as good as it
could have been, and some of the best parts are omitted, like the Tom
Bombadil episode and (I think) most of the parts with Treebeard, among
others.  The Orcs are my favorite particular about the movie,
especially the songs ('Where there's a whip there's a way').  Anybody
else seen the movie?

_______________________________________________________________________________

Chris Larrieu		|  Set the controls for the heart of the sun
cs 2262			|
williamsburg, va	|			-- Pink Floyd

_______________________________________________________________________________




Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: ctatum@eng.clemson.edu (charles tatum)
Subject: Re: Boromir
Reply-To: ctatum@eng.clemson.edu
Organization: College of Engineering, Clemson Univ.
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1992 03:00:07 GMT

In article 11680@williams.edu, 93rmm@williams.edu (Lord Jagged) writes:
>It pains me, even now.  A new alt base for the greatest fantasy author
>to ever live and 7 of the first 8 posts are completely brain dead.
>
>Oh well, here's a question for you all.
>
>   Is Boromir basically laudable and good, or not?
>
>That is: does he completely blow it in trying to take the Ring from
>Frodo, or can we accept this as an expected effect of the power of the
>Ring and forgive him?
>
>I have my opinion on this, but lets see what you all think.
>
>					Lord Jagged


  All that I have read and felt about Boromir is this:  he was raised to become
Steward after his father. As such he trained in the ways of war a lot. My feeling
is that he is a little gung-ho, and wants to win no matter what. This can explain
his extraordinary courage (he braved the road from Minas Tirith to Rivendell).
I believe that the ring senses this (it is after all the dwelling place of most of
Sauron's "real heavy" power--the stuff that would turn middle earth upside down)
and acts upon Boromir quite strongly specifically upon this weakness (as far as it
is concerned). Boromir doesn't realize what happens until it is too late, and Frodo
has run off. He dies a hero's death, attempting to save Merry and Pippin.  Even Frodo
acknowledges this when he finally sees Aragorn again. I believe this makes him a
tragic character in the LOTR.  Could the story have gone on without his existence?
Answer: if he didn't exist, would we ever know the effect of the ring on a man more
of brawn? (Remember Faramir, the more knowledgeable one, did not fear the lure
of the ring because he had compelled himself to fear it as a relative unknown.)
Let Boromir be remembered with honor....
---
Charles
----
+--------------+----------------------------------------+
|  The Wizard  |  email: ctatum@eng.clemson.edu         |
+-------------------------------------------------------+      
| Charles Tatum, Jr.   | My opinions are my own.
+----------------------+


Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: 880790w@dragon.acadiau.ca (Andrew Ward)
Subject: Re: Tom Bombadil
Organization: Acadia University
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1992 02:47:22 GMT

schoi@ccat.sas.upenn.edu (Samuel Choi) writes:

>>xexeo@dxcern.cern.ch (Geraldo Xexeo) writes:
>>Tom is Valar, as far as I am informed.I will try to check the
>>information at home.

>There's no way Tom is a Valar . . . or is that that plural? . . . in which case
>there's no way he's a Vala.  There're only, what, 9, Valar?  Manwe being the
>head honcho, then Melkor, and Umlo . . . and then I don't remember.

>I've heard someone say that that he's one of the maiar . . . don't know where
>that info's from . . .

>sam

I've actually looked into this some time ago.  I've never found anything that
specifically said what he was.  But from the way he is described he seems to
most closely resemble a maiar.

- Andrew
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: jason@jarthur.claremont.edu (Jason Merrill)
Subject: Re: Bored Of The Rings (Re: Looking for deluxe...)
Organization: Harvey Mudd College, Claremont, CA 91711
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 20:58:46 GMT

>viau@wm.estec.esa.nl (Pierre "play-soccer-not-football" Viau) writes:

>>BTW, somebody in this group mentioned "Bored Of The Rings", a parody of
>>what you know.  Is it a joke or does this parody exist ? If yes, where ?

_Bored of the Rings_ was written by the Harvard Lampoon in the 70s, I
believe.  Maybe earlier; but it's definitely an old book.  I have a
paperback copy at home (not here), but it's been a while since I read it...
excellent parody.

--
Jason Merrill					jason@jarthur.claremont.edu
This is a self-referential .sig which is not particularly interesting.
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: mbs@zycor.lgc.com (Matt Shostak)
Subject: Re: Silmarillion?
Keywords: Silmarillion?
Organization: Landmark/Zycor   Austin, Texas
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 19:38:58 GMT

In article <1992Nov23.173823.25066@dragon.acadiau.ca> 890554h@dragon.acadiau.ca (Andrew Hoogerwerf) writes:
>I have read the Lord of The Rings as well as the Hobbit, and Farmer Giles
>of Ham. I have never read the Silmarillion because I heard it was quite
>profound. Is it worth a guy ( who it took two times to understand the Lord 
>of The Rings) to read the Silmarillion. Anyway what the hell is it about?
>

Though it is sometimes hard to read, and perhaps the most difficult parts
are at the beginning, I think the Silmarillion is well worth it.
I've read it twice.  I consider it the crowning achievement, closing
the circle on the Tolkien mythology.  After reading the Silmarillion,
many references in the Lord of the Rings make a lot more sense.  Moreover,
things like the Elves' leaving Middle Earth for the West (especially
Galadriel's) become more poignant.  I recommend reading it more than once.


>-- 
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>Andrew Hoogerwerf               890554@dragon.acadiau.ca
>196 Skyway apt 10
>542-5339


-- 
Matthew B. Shostak              Landmark/Zycor
mbs@zycor.lgc.com               (512) 292-2357
"Gentlemen! You can't fight in here! This is the war room!"
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien