HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: hvaisane@cs.joensuu.fi (H. Vaisanen)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Business (was Re: Immigrants and employment)
Date: 19 Aug 92 08:42:54 GMT
Organization: University of Joensuu

jafitv@termo.unit.no (Jan Arne Fagertun) writes:
>(Fast-Eddie Felson) writes:
>|> Our western society, however, works so that people
>|> are employed only if there's a need for such and even then employers
>How is this need defined then ?

If corporation X needs individual Y to work for them, it will hire Y
to work for them.


>After all, when the businesses don't want their workers, they don't
>just vanish - they have to keep on living. The society pays the
>unemployed. Isn't it a bit strange that the businesses can just "hand
>the workers over to the society" to feed them until the businesses
>need their working capacity again ? Sort of make others handle the
>businesses' problem.

Businesses' problem is not to feed their workers, their problem is
to make money to their owners.


>Why should the society pay people to waste their production capacity ?
>Instead of paying them for unemployment, the society should "buy their
>production capacity", and sell their products.

What's the different between paying people for unemployment and paying
them for manufacturing products nobody wants to buy?


Russia gave everybody 'a job' for over 70 years-- and went bankrupt
because of it...


> The society can't just
>"get rid of the people", like the businesses do - we have to handle it
>in some way or another.

We could send all the unemployed as "refugees" to some country stupid
enough to let them in. Anyone? 400 000 Finns are waiting in line. (-:
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: jafitv@termo.unit.no (Jan Arne Fagertun)
Subject: Re: nationalism, Finns, Chinese, etc.
Reply-To: jafitv@termo.unit.no (Jan Arne Fagertun)
Organization: SINTEF, Norwegian Institute of Technology
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 92 13:43:42 GMT

In article <TAIPALE.92Aug14121538@node_4ecea.kiloapo.tele.nokia.fi>, taipale@kiloapo.tele.nokia.fi (Pekka J Taipale) writes:
|> 
|> I don't think that skin colour is the real factor here. It may have
|> some significance, but the essential reasons are not racial.
|> 


Well, the effect is still that only the non-white immigrants are
concidered as a problem. The reason is probably (I hope !) that white
immigrants are not very easy to see - they look quite like us others.

I think (hope) people are honest when they say that the skin colour is
insignificant to them. But many, I think, mean that racists have right
in some of what they say.

What I'm trying to say is that there is a "grey zone" in which many
people have placed their meanings about immigrants. At one side there
is racism, at the other side not. And some statements definitely fall
down on the racism side of the "grey zone", even statements from people
who call themselves non-racists.


|> Any nation would be upset if they were forced (by some minority
|> 'morale') to received large numbers of immigrants and pay for their
|> living. It doesn't have to have anything to do with skin clour.
|> Suggesting so is both provocative and inaccurate.
|> 

I don't think "some minority 'morale' can force a nation to receive
large numbers of immigrants and pay for their living" today. Who would
that be ?

If your concern is the term "and pay for their living" - don't you pay
for their living of the unemployed, the sick, the children, old
persons, from Finland ? Why place a border around one group of people,
and just leave the people outside it to starve to death ?

Could you give me a non-racial explanation of that ?


+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Jan Arne Fagertun, Research Engineer, SINTEF Division Thermodynamics|
| E-mail: Jan.A.Fagertun@termo.unit.no                                |
| Phone : +47 7 596890                            Fax  : +47 7 944513 |
| Mail  : SINTEF/Varmeteknikk, 7034 Trondheim, Norway                 |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
From: canders@isr.harvard.edu (Carl E. Anderson)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Vikings savages
Date: 13 Aug 92 15:41:40 GMT
Organization: Harvard University, Cambridge, MA

In article <1992Aug11.233009.19064@corax.udac.uu.se> pem@Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE (Per-Erik Martin) writes:
>In article <1992Aug11.151639.19067@burrhus.harvard.edu> canders@isr.harvard.edu (Carl E. Anderson) writes:
>>	Breaking this law is how Hrolfr ganga got kicked out of Norway; he
>>of course went off to France and founded Normandy.
>
>I can't stop myself from an attempt to translate Alf Henrikson's
>(a Swedish historian) version of this incident, in his "Svensk Historia"
>(Swedish History):
>
> [story of Hrolfr/Rollo deleted]

	I hadn't heard the part about the beheaded courtiers before - very
good!

Cheers,
Carl

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carl Edlund Anderson	            	"Hefi ek ok aldri sva reitt vapn
canders@isr.harvard.edu			at manni at eigi hafi vidh kommit."
OR
anderso2@husc.harvard.edu			- Skarphedhinn Njalsson 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: hardarso@kopasker.is (Kari Hardarson)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Internet access from Denmark
Date: 10 Aug 92 17:57:21 GMT
Reply-To: hardarso@kopasker.UUCP (Kari Hardarson)
Organization: Primary School of Kopasker, Iceland

The title says it all. Tomorrow I'm leaving for Denmark, to stay
there for one week.  I don't know if there is a "guest faculty" 
number you can call to access your home account.  Does anyone know?

Thanks,

  Kari
From: etxmow@garboc34.ericsson.se (Mats Winberg)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Germans drowning in Sweden
Date: 13 Aug 92 12:00:22 GMT
Distribution: soc
Organization: Ericsson



    

	 
	    It's happened again: Two young German girls 20 and 16 years
	    in a camping site, decided to paddle across Lake Vaettern
	    despite the rough weather. The canoe capsized and both died
	    in the cold water.

	    Each summer, it seems to me, far too many Germans lose
	    their lives here in canoe accidents or by swimming to far from
	    the shores. Why are they so negligent of the dangers?
	    I mean, I wouldn't dare to paddle across Vaettern even if
	    it was calm. It's a treacherous lake which can get rapidly
	    to rough for canoes. It is also very cold, even in summer.

	    I talked with some friends about this tendency of Germans
	    to be victims of accidents in Sweden, and the general
	    opinion was that they simply are not used to cope with
	    even the "semi-wilderness" in southern Sweden. They can't
	    realize the difference between paddling on a small pond
	    in Germany and the great lakes of Sweden. During the course
	    of the conversation I heard about very odd behaviour of
	    Germans in Sweden: slaughtering sheep, felling of trees for
	    campfires ("Allemansraetten...") much of which must only be
	    hearsay, but perhaps there's a grain of truth in these
	    stories.

	    Anyway, how to get the numbers of drowning accidents
	    involving tourists down ? It makes me very upset when people
	    that are guests here, instead of having a good time, loses
	    their lives.


	    Mats Winberg
	    etxmow@tore.ericsson.se
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic,soc.college.gradinfo,sci.anthropology
From: helgi@wam.umd.edu (Helgi Torleif Dagsson)
Subject: Seeking Swedish grad school contacts
Keywords: Sweden, anthropology, Freyr
Organization: Workstations at Maryland, University of Maryland, College Park
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 05:33:50 GMT

Greetings,

	I would like to study anthropology in Sweden at the graduate
(doctoral) level starting in the fall of 1993.  By then I will either have
or be close to a bachelor's in anthropology; I already have a bachelor's in
computer science ('84).  I would like to study the cultural anthropology of
Scandinavia in the pre-Christian era, and most especially study the religion,
seidhr, flagdh, etc., and anything to do with Freyr.  I have a reasonable
grasp of Swedish now, and will be studying it considerably more during
the time before fall '93.
	Problem: I would like the e-mail contact information for any
Universitites in Sweden, as well as the phone numbers and postal addresses.
Who are the experts in the areas mentioned above?  I have read some of the
journals, (especially Medieval Scandinavia,) but that is not a complete
guide. 
	Could anyone offer any suggestions, and especially names and
e-mail addresses for any anthropologist working in that area currently?  
I will be focusing my study as much as possible on that area in the
comming year (but I will still be an undergraduate).  In order to apply
for grants for study in Sweden, I must either be accepted or at least
be in the process of applying -- and the grant applications are out
(for American Scandinavian Foundation), and soon to be out (for Fullbrights),
and I am about to write off for an applicaton for the Swedish Institute
scholarships.
	I would most especially like to study at Uppsala, but it seems
from one source that Uppsala doesn't offer anthropology.  Is this right? 
The people I first talked to in Sweden seemed to think that I wanted to
study with the history factulty; but anthropological study is more of my
goal.
	Thanks for any information you can offer.

	Hej d{!  Jag hoppas at Ni kan skicka mig n{got.  Tack ska du ha!


	Helgi.  (helgi@wam.umd.edu)
-- 
/-----------------------------------------------------------------------------\
!Intolerance of ambiguity is the mark of an athoritarian personality -- Adorno!
!                                                                             !
!If you're not at least a little bit confunsed, then you probably don't really!
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: lattwitz@let.rug.nl (K. Lattewitz)
Subject: translation wanted
Organization: Faculteit der Letteren, Rijksuniversiteit Groningen, NL
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 09:43:52 GMT

My sister received a postcard with some information about her first name. As 
none of knows the language and she is so curious, I promised to ask the net 
about it. 

Kirsti/Kirsten
Navnedag 13/11
Nordisk form av Kristine, som betyr "kristen". Allment navn i Norge siden 
1700-tallet.
Kirsti/Kirsten star for trygghet. Rolig, stabil og med en uendelig 
talmodighet blir hun krumtappen i alle familier. Men om hun noen gang blir 
sint, da rister jorden i sine grunnvoller.

You can post or e-mail. Thanks in advance,
Karen.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: taipale@kiloapo.tele.nokia.fi (Pekka J Taipale)
Subject: Re: nationalism, Finns, Chinese, etc.
Organization: none
	<1992Aug13.114416.9915@ugle.unit.no>
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 10:15:38 GMT

In article <1992Aug13.114416.9915@ugle.unit.no> jafitv@termo.unit.no (Jan Arne Fagertun) writes:
>In fact, the by far largest foreign group in Norway is danes and
>swedes, and nobody grumble about that.

>But their skin is white.....

I don't think that skin colour is the real factor here. It may have
some significance, but the essential reasons are not racial.

Any nation would be upset if they were forced (by some minority
'morale') to received large numbers of immigrants and pay for their
living. It doesn't have to have anything to do with skin clour.
Suggesting so is both provocative and inaccurate.

--
Pekka.Taipale@hut.fi

Software Engineering
Helsinki University of Technology
From: ppessi@vipunen.hut.fi (Pekka Pessi)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Another Finnish Question
Date: 16 Aug 92 01:50:33 GMT
	<1992Aug12.201740.27510@corax.udac.uu.se>
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland

In article <1992Aug12.201740.27510@corax.udac.uu.se> andersa@Riga.DoCS.UU.SE (Anders Andersson) writes:
>In article <hberg.167@polisci.umn.edu>, hberg@polisci.umn.edu (Bob Hammarberg) writes:
>> >From where does the name Finland  originate? 
>> 
>> This is the name the Swedes gave to the SW corner of present-day Finland (
>> the part closest to the Swedish heartland).  It meant Hunter-land, I 
>> believe.  Why they gave it that particular name, noone knows.  During the 
>> Swedish era (1157-1809), the name for the whole place was O"sterland 
>> (=Eastland)

>I mentioned this once before, and got some response, but I still
>find it odd, and wonder if somebody (especially Finnish-speaking)
>can offer an opinion:  This SW province of Finland appears to go
>by two entirely different names.  What more, each name seems to
>have an official translation into each language!  Thus:

>Finnish:	Turunmaa		Varsinais Suomi
>Swedish:	AAboland		Egentliga Finland
>English:	'Province of Turku'	'Finland proper'

	South-Western part of nowadays Finland was called Finland
	before there was a city called Turku (which means nothing else
	but a market or a market place).

	There is also some controversy what to include in "Province of
	Turku"? "Turunmaa" surely do not include whole Proper Finland.
	But "Province of Turku" included also Aaland, which was one of
	the historical provinces of Finland. You should read Matti
	Klinge, if you want to know what "Finland" has meant.

>For instance, it would make perfect sense to me to call it (say)
>"Turunmaa" in Finnish, and "Egentliga Finland" in Swedish (for
>historical reasons), and let it stay with that.  To make a
>comparison, is there a Welsh *translation* of the English name
>for Wales, different from the Welsh name, and vice versa?  No..?

	What about "Anglia"? Is there still 7 kingdoms in England, one
	of which is called Anglia?

>So, what do the locals (Finnish- or Swedish-speaking) say here?
>Do you use both names, and if so, in what situations?  What name
>do you expect foreigners to use, 'Province of Turku' or 'Finland
>proper' (those are my own, unofficial translations)?

	"Turunmaa" is a cheese or a man of war, "Proper Finland" is a
	province. ;)

>I suppose Finnish provinces all have their coats of arms, just
>like their Swedish counterparts?

	They have. (Proper) Finnish one is quite interesting, it has
	two Swedish navy flags in it. I believe it has something to do
	with first Finnish grand duke, Johan Vasa. 

--
Pekka Pessi	/	ppessi@niksula.hut.fi
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: jafitv@termo.unit.no (Jan Arne Fagertun)
Subject: Re: Business (was Re: Immigrants and employment)
Reply-To: jafitv@termo.unit.no (Jan Arne Fagertun)
Organization: SINTEF, Norwegian Institute of Technology
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 92 07:10:18 GMT

In article <1992Aug20.151321.28966@eua.ericsson.se>, euafri@eua.ericsson.se (Fredrik.Ostman) writes:
|> 
|> tomas_e@LINK.Physchem.KTH.SE (Tomas Eriksson) writes:
|> >There is ample evidence that planned, fully state controlled, economies 
|> >don't work! This means that socialism on a general level, whether 
|> >marxistic, leninistic, stalinistic, maoistic or secteristic, simply
|> >doesn't work! (At least not the way the proponents claim.)
|> 
|> There is aslo ample evidence that partly planned, partly state controlled,
|> "mixed" economies don't work! This evidence is to be found in Norden.
--


There is aslo ample evidence that liberalism don't work. These examples
are for instance found in Latin / South America.

So what ?

+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Jan Arne Fagertun, Research Engineer, SINTEF Division Thermodynamics|
| E-mail: Jan.A.Fagertun@termo.unit.no                                |
| Phone : +47 7 596890                            Fax  : +47 7 944513 |
| Mail  : SINTEF/Varmeteknikk, 7034 Trondheim, Norway                 |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: bzfstoer@ZIB-Berlin.DE (Mechthild Stoer)
Subject: Re: Immigrants and employment
Reply-To: bzfstoer@ZIB-Berlin.DE
Organization: Konrad Zuse-Zentrum fuer Informationstechnik Berlin
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 16:49:38 GMT

Jan Arne Fagertun has some interesting propositions:

That the unemployed in the Western countries
can be employed to aid the starving millions in Africa:

>The difference is that these products are NOT unnecessary. Milllions
>and millions of people are starving to death in Africa nowadays, so
>I'm chocked to see that the western economical/political systems can
>just waste the production capacity of millions of people, instead of
>using it to aid.
(Some posting of which I don't know the number.)

What is this aid is supposed to look like,
and who should pay for it?

An example from the European Community:
They sold beef cheaply to some Western African country.
With this they got rid of their overload of beef
and thought they did a good deed.
It had the effect that the cattle-raisers in this country lost their jobs, 
because they were not able to compete with the subsidized beef from EC.
It would really have been such a nice concept...

Or an example from Eastern Germany:
The farming machine industry knows very well that their machines
are needed in Russia. These machines were previously sold to Russia.
But the Russians simply can't pay.
And our government is not able to keep this industry alive
until the Russians and Ukrainians can pay.
It would really be nice and helpful for both sides...

What I mean to say is that most of these wonderful concepts don't work.
But maybe Jan Arne Fagertun has a viable suggestion.

Mechthild Stoer
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: u-lchoqu%peruvian.utah.edu@cs.utah.edu (Lee Choquette)
Subject: Re: nationalism, Finns, Chinese, etc.
Date: 12 Aug 92 13:01:35 MDT
Keywords: none
Organization: University of Utah CS Dept

In article <sooz.713568139@vincent1.iastate.edu> sooz@iastate.edu (Susan F
Bradley) writes:
 >  [...] If I make a decision to emigrate to, say, FINLAND [...] My children
 >  (and I) should learn to speak and deal with Finnish in our day-to-day
 >  lives. [...]

Or Swedish, the other official language.

Especially if you're from Vietnam.  :-)

Seriously, Susan, your post was eminently rational, and warrants careful
consideration by the next person who feels moved to join the debate.
  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
   . . . . Lee Choquette . . . . . . . . .  finl{ndare-French- . . . . . . . .
  . . u-lchoqu@peruvian.utah.edu. . . . . . Canadian-American . . . . . . . .
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
From: csa18@seq1.keele.ac.uk (R.J. Husmo)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: translation wanted
Date: 21 Aug 92 12:08:46 GMT
Organization: University of Keele, England

torkel@sics.se (Torkel Franzen) writes:
: In article <WN95VBI@mailgzrz.tu-berlin.de> bzfstoer@ZIB-Berlin.DE 
: (Mechthild Stoer) writes:
: 
:    >And in Scandinavia, as I see, nobody even heard of it.
: 
:   Name days in the Nordic countries are not Saint's days, but just names
: stuck into the calendar. I don't who the poster was who didn't know
: what "name day" meant, but as indicated in the posting from Finland,
: name days are a part of life here.

The poster who didn't know what a 'name-day' is was probably me.
I am Norwegian and have never met that concept in real life. Of course,
these days I'm at university, so the whole matter is moot, but
nevertheless...

I know when I was born, but not when I was given my name. I don't think
there's anything unusual about that in Norway. Of course, my Greek friends
have more or less the other problem.

Having said that, I very much doubt that there ever was a saint called
'Reidar' anyway... :-) (Of course, my middle name _does_ have a
corresponding saint (St. George), but as I've stopped using that name, who
cares?)

Any Norwegians out there to whom the concept of a name-day _is_ a part of
everyday life?

Reidar J. Husmo
--
"Students?" barked the Archchancellor.
"Yes, Master. You know? They're the thinner ones with the pale faces?
Because we're a _university_? They come with the whole thing, like rats."
JANET: radar@uk.ac.kl.cs                     USENET radar@cs.keele.ac.uk
From: jafitv@termo.unit.no (Jan Arne Fagertun)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Business (was Re: Immigrants and employment)
Date: 19 Aug 92 14:13:00 GMT
Reply-To: jafitv@termo.unit.no (Jan Arne Fagertun)
Organization: SINTEF, Norwegian Institute of Technology

In article <1992Aug19.125122.24315@nntp.hut.fi>, f33012l@puukko.hut.fi (Janne Kivel{) writes:
|> 
|> 'Mutlu of Joensuu' strikes again and is caught in the act in s.c.n by
|> an unsuspecting Norwegian. :-)
|> 
|> (...)
|> 
|> Mr. Vaisanen's views don't belong to this century. The only job of 
|> the government is not to defend against external threat or to provide
|> law and order. To Mr. Vaisanen any other type of government intervention
|> is socialism, and that is bad. :-)


Sorry, I didn't know him...   :->


|> 
|> (...)
|> 
|> The unemployed are lousy consumers and lousy taxpayers. This is what
|> Finnish government has painfully become aware of. Unfortunately,
|> the government hasn't got the money to improve the situation. Finnish
|> government has got itself into a fool circle, in which it has to pay
|> more and more unemployment benefits with less and less tax income.
|> 


Seems pretty equal to the situation in Norway...


|> (...)
|> 
|> I believe Mr Vaisanen is referring to the current unemployment figures
|> and suggests a 'solution' to the problem. Sweden took care of the extra
|> population in Finland back in the 60's. This time the same formula wouldn't
|> work so well and I doubt if this is what Mr. Vaisanen would like to see
|> happening.
|> 
|> >I mean, since the problem is the refugees and the immigrants taking the
|> >jobs from the finns ....


Yeah, I know what he meant. What I meant was to ask him if the 4000000
are unemployed because 400000 refugees/immigrants have taken their
jobs, during the last 10 years or so.


|> 
|> What jobs? There are no jobs. :-)
|> 


Or if the lack of jobs maybe has some other political/economical
reason. A silly question, I know, because the answer is obvious, but it
seems like some people want to forget their brains all the time.


|> The refugees are waiting for the authorities to decide whether they are
|> real refugees or not. This can take several months and meanwhile these people
|> are not allowed to work, so they'll have to live with social security benefits.
|> 
|> Janne Kivela"
|> 


Your description of the situation for the refugees in Finland seems
pretty equal to that in Norway.


+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Jan Arne Fagertun, Research Engineer, SINTEF Division Thermodynamics|
| E-mail: Jan.A.Fagertun@termo.unit.no                                |
| Phone : +47 7 596890                            Fax  : +47 7 944513 |
| Mail  : SINTEF/Varmeteknikk, 7034 Trondheim, Norway                 |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic