From: kniaz@cat4.cs.wisc.edu (Joel Kniaz)
Subject: China never as prosperous as Europe? SO WHAT??!!
Keywords: predestination
Organization: University of Wisconsin, Madison -- Computer Sciences Dept.
Distribution: na
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1992 00:53:28 GMT

In article <1992Apr13.193403.10890@leland.Stanford.EDU> underdog@leland.Stanford.EDU (Dwight Joe) writes:
>In article <t2wj1vj.kemnitz@netcom.com> kemnitz@netcom.com (Greg Kemnitz)
>writes:
>>In article <1992Apr12.005212.6475@leland.Stanford.EDU>
>underdog@leland.Stanford.EDU (Dwight Joe) writes:
>>>You can lay your suspensions to rest.
>>>
>>>At no point in Chinese history has China ever been as prosperous
>>>and well off as the USA or Western Europe.  
>>
>>This contradicts the observations of Europeans who visited China in the from
>>the fourteenth century to the time of Napoleon.  Up until about the mid
>>nineteenth century, China was in many ways better off than Europe.
>>...
>
>I meant that "At no point in Chinese history has China ever been 
>as prosperous and well off as the [MODERN = 20th century] USA
>or Western Europe".  

	Look, you guys.  This is an argument  over a completely 
	ridiculous and meaningless point.   Whether or not China
	has ever been as 'prosperous' as the U.S. or Western 
	Europe is irrelevent to any argument in light of the fact
	that NO national, religious, cultural, or regional group 
	has been so successful (using Underdog's criteria). The 
	point is that in order to use this argument to condemn 
	Chinese culture, it must follow that ALL OTHER NON-
	WESTERN EUROPEAN CULTURES ARE ALSO INFERIOR.  

	Does Underdog really wish to condemn every civilization 
	from the Zulus to the Mayans, from the Greeks to the 
	Egyptians?  I don't think he would be so foolish as to
	do this on the net.  That kind of rabid euro-centrism
	would find few supporters on any news group.

>Mr. Kemnitz is doing what basically many people
>who identify with Chinese culture like to do.  

	Who are these people?  They compose a homogenous racial
	group with very similar demographic characteristics  to
	western europeans.  That means that there are members
	of this group teaching in our schools, working in hospitals,
	driving trucks, and doing meritorious research all over the
	world.  Is Underdog saying that these professors, doctors,
	and scientists are not intelligent enough to have made an 
	informed decision?  Or are they simply so evil and corrupt
	that they persist knowingly in their adherence to the tenets
	of this culture with full knowledge of its `barbarity.'  

	Does Underdog really believe that he has such superiority 
	over all of these people?   I have met many egotists, but
	none so patronizing and arrogant as this.   At least many
	racist admit freely to their core beliefs of purity and
	superiority.

>But I say, let f(t, s) = relative figure of accomplishment, where
>"t" is an element of (start of time, 1992] and "s" is an element of 
.
. [more irrelevencies deleted]
.
>Even today, human decency in Chinese
>society is still nonexistent for the most part.

	Again, when Underdog speaks of `Chinese society,' it is not
	of a geographically restricted entity.  He speaks of a not 
	insignificant portion of this country's citizens.  What 
	disgusts me most  of all is his willingness  condemn
	citizens of his own country while touting the superiority
	of those of another.

	P.s. Feel free to respond anytime, Mr. Joe.
     ______________________________________________________________________
    / "Lo, Though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death,       /
    \    I fear not!                                        ______________\
    /  For I am the biggest son-of-a-bitch in the valley." / My favorite  /
    \______________________________________________________\ expression...\
    / Joel Kniaz   kniaz@garfield.cs.wisc.edu  kniaz@jomby /      __i     /
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Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american