From: mjp@austin.ibm.com (Michael Phelps)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
Subject: Re: 2nd Ammendment
Date: 5 Nov 92 20:42:19 GMT
Reply-To: mjp@vnet.ibm.com (Michael J. Phelps)
Organization: IBM Kingston NY
Originator: mjp@bwa.kgn.ibm.com


In article <1992Nov5.184232.20993@cbfsb.cb.att.com>, colten@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (marc.colten) writes:
|> In article <DLB.92Nov5112146@fanny.wash.inmet.com>, dlb@fanny.wash.inmet.com (David Barton) writes:
|> > This really is kind of silly.  Most of this is covered under present
|> > law, and is not controversial.  In general, illegal actions with guns
|> > are not constitutionally protected (nor are illegal actions with
|> > printing presses, or anything else).
|> > 
|> 
|> This is circular logic - "illegal actions ... are not .. protected" -
|> but what we are talking about are things that are illegal or legal
|> depending on interpretation.  Can certain things be made illegal or
|> not?  Sure shooting someone with a gun is illegal, what about carrying
|> in a threatening manner?  That's the point I was trying to make -
|> where can the government make rules and where can't it.
|> 
|> > In article <1992Nov5.133648.1557@cbfsb.cb.att.com>
|> > colten@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (marc.colten) writes:
|> > 
|> >    1)  A 12 year old boy takes his father's pistol to school with him.
|> >        Can school officials take it away?
|> > 
|> > Minors are not guaranteed constitutional rights in general; witness
|> > searches of school lockers.  Some have been granted in limited
|> > circumstances.  This is not a violation of the constitution.
|> > 
|> 
|> You mean the inviolable RKBA can be abridged for minors?  What about
|> 18 year olds?  What about 12 year olds on the street?

According to the law, you aren't a full fledged citizen until you reach
18 yrs of age - you are a minor.  You also can't enter into a contract or get
married without parental consent.

|> 
|> >    2)  A violent criminal is released on bail.  His first stop is
|> >        a gun store - can he be forbidden to buy the gun?
|> > 
|> > Felons may be denied many constitutional rights, including the right
|> > to vote.  They often have to petition the governor of the state for
|> > the right to vote.  This varies from state to state.
|> > 
|> 
|> I thought the RKBA was an absolute right - how do you lose an absolute
|> right just by commiting a crime?

A felony conviction disenfranchises you; i.e, restriction of rights, sometimes
even to the point of imprisonment [restriction of freedom of movement]

|> 
|> >    3)  I rent an apartment overlooking a schoolyard.  Early one morning
|> >        I screw down the tripod of an automatic weapon to the window sill,
|> >        attach the gun so it points down towards the schoolyard,
|> >        and sit there by the gun, smiling, waiting for recess.  Can
|> >        anyone make me not do this?
|> > 
|> > Directing a weapon toward anyone in a manner that a reasonable person
|> > would consider threatening is assault.  It is illegal, and such laws
|> > are not unconstitutional.  This is not "keeping a bearing" an arm; it
|> > is threatening someone with one.
|> > 
|> 
|> More gray areas - what is a "threatening manner".  What about a guy
|> in a klan robe with a rifle?  Is that a legitimate RKBA or a
|> threatening manner?  I'm Jewish and I'd feel threatened - but another
|> White Supremicist wouldn't.

Get the penal codes for the state you reside in and read 'em.  Assault, Battery,
and so forth are defined [yes, in legalese, but still defined].  

|> 
|> >    4)  You like to ride on public transportation, holding your Magnum
|> >        in your hand.  Is this against any law?  Occasionally you playfully
|> >        point it at an old lady and "Pow!  Pow!".  Is this legal?
|> > 
|> > Similarly, this is assault (the pointing, not the holding).  Holding
|> > in non-threatening manner would be protected.
|> > 

Public disturbance, assault, menacing.  All defined in your states' penal codes.
Specifics vary from state to state and area to area; in otherwords, open carry
is legal (and accepted) in some areas (AZ).  Other areas vary.  Pointing the
firearm and saying "pow" would probably get you talking to men in white suits, 
and if you end up declared mentally incompetent, your rights get restricted, 
just as convicted felons..

|> 
|> What about just sitting on the bus, holding the gun and laughing 
|> uncontrollably?  Who is the "reasonable" person who gets to forbid
|> this.  I've seen plenty of people on the net who might think that
|> this is not as threatening as I do.  Do they get to make that decision?
|> 
|> > I have set follow-ups to talk.politics.guns; it really is not an 
|> > issue for sci.skeptic.  Trying to keep discussions in relevant
|> > newsgroups is a futile process, but I sometimes try anyway.
|> > 
|> 

See above; almost certain to get you introduced to the men in white.

|> Well, this is where it started and now I gotta scan another newgroup,
|> great.
|> 
|> marc colten
|> 

Marc, you do have the right to free speech, but try shouting "FIRE" in a 
crowded theatre and see what happens.  You'll get arrested, but it will not
violate your right to free speech (you did get to say it!).  Rights imply
duties; if you choose to exercize a right, you also expect to be punished if
you abuse that right.  RKBA is no different.  
-- 
Michael Phelps, (external) mjp@vnet.ibm.com ..
                (internal) mjp@bwa.kgn.ibm.com .. mjp at kgnvmy         
 (and last but not least a disclaimer)  These opinions are mine..       
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns