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Date:         Mon, 14 Sep 1992 14:16:10 -0400
From:         KILBURN@WVSVAX.WVNET.EDU
Subject:      Re: what to do in a world that trivializes intelligence

Hi, Janet :)
>exceptional in any way but our teachers were.  We were mostly minority
>students and they gave us hope, mainly because when we left there we could
>read and do mathematics.  Is that too much to ask of the current teachers?

I don't deny that bozo teachers exist.  But current teachers are sometimes
faced with conditions that make it difficult to teach -- overcrowded
classrooms; kids who come to school hungry, tired, abused, etc.; kids whose
parents don't much care about their education; kids whose parents expect
teacher to be disciplinarian, moral authority, psychiatrist, and babysitter
. . . but who don't "practice" what teacher is "preaching", etc.

what a mess
Kerry
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Date:         Fri, 11 Sep 1992 23:11:11 EST
From:         Kerry Stephenson <KSTE@PURCCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: marching at p.parenthood

Jenna:

Sorry.  I thought you wanted to know *why* they were there, not
just why they were there *when* they were there.  And the provider
connection often has to be made, since there are also protests at
clinics that only refer for abortions and do not acutally perform
them; since I don't know the site in question, I thought that might
be the case, thus leading to confusion as to motive.

Essentially, where abortions are done, and where there is a specifically
organized pro-life group, pickets are mostly done early in the morning,
after a determination is made that abortions will be done that day.
Where they are not done, the pickets are intended to be primarily
informational and are done when it appears the clinic (or whatever the
site in question may be) does a significant amount of business.
The precise tactics are determined by local group leadership, though
occasionally (in areas where the issue is a matter of hot public
debate) individuals act unilaterally.  Sidewalk counselors attempt
to be at the site from early morning until as late as the site is
open or until the counselors go home.  Most counselors do 1-2 hour
shifts, though there are some who will take on an entire day.  In
addition, most sidewalk counselors receive some form of training
before they start.  Picketers generally only receive instruction in
the laws pertinent to their activity, but many do a good deal of
research and reading on their own.  And both groups tend to have
some members who have had abortions themselves.

Is this what you were looking for?  If you have more specific questions,
please feel free to ask (privately or publicly), as this is my primary
area of expertise.

--Missy P 2 B
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Date:         Sat, 12 Sep 1992 14:38:26 -0500
From:         Jason Briggs Cormier <CORJB@RHODES.BITNET>
Subject:      Republican Evil

A writing class in which I sit, just completed its usual
assignment on evil.  The object is to write a one page
theme narrating something that is truly evil.  The catch is
that one must put it within an everyday context(killing
Mother Theresa is not everyday).

When I took this class two years ago, I couldn't think of
anything that I considered evil.

Today, I can.

I am not sure if I want to say that George Bush is evil or
that the Republican Party is, but it doesn't really matter
since they should be viewed as synonomous.

What I am getting at is that the campaign strategy of
the Republican Party is evil.

By focusing on "Family Values" rather than politics, they have
made hate and separation an issue.

George Bush's not disagreeing with Pat Buchanan after his blistering
speech at the Convention, endorsed Buchanan's ideas.  Buchanan's ideas
are ideas that endorse violence against people who are different, people
who are immoral.  These people aren't equal to moral people and as
a result have no legal rights.  They should be persecuted, out-lawed,
exterminated.

I ADMIT THAT I AM LOOKING AT THE EXTREMES IN THIS CASE,

but when gay-bashing is on the rise like it is and pro-life
activists are abusing young women getting abortions, when
anti-minority sentiments are rising, I DON'T THINK THE EXTREMES
ARE THAT FAR FROM MAINSTREAM AMERICA.

For some reason, which would make a great book topic, the mainstream
in society are always succeptible to appeals to nationalism, which
always take the form of ethnic cleansing, moral cleansing, etc.
Pushed a little from a rhetorical genius and the result is Nazi
Germany, today's Yugoslavia, Stalin's Russia.

j.b.
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Date:         Wed, 9 Sep 1992 20:33:00 EDT
From:         CMORRISO@SNYESCVA.BITNET
Subject:      RE: Pennies From Heaven

Robert, the NEA funds a lot more than pornography, things like symphony
orchestras and opera companies and such, but I guess everybody notices most
what is in his or her particular level of activity and interest.

                                 Chris Morrison
                                 CMorriso@snyescva.bitnet
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
From: jwales@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (jimmy donal wales)
Subject: Re: Interest Rates
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 13:27:02 GMT


If the question is: what will the effect be of a change in interest
rates by the Fed on the economy?

Then Jason's statement is probably false.

>I'm just taking Money & Banking, so I may be wrong.  By the end of the
>semester, I'll be able to answer this better.

I don't think that the relationship between Fed activity and the
economy is understood very well at all.  But then again, I'm not
taking Money & Banking, so I probably don't know enough about it to
say.  Eh?

Anyway, what do those business school professors know?  

--Jimbo


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Date:         Wed, 9 Sep 1992 21:15:00 EDT
From:         CMORRISO@SNYESCVA.BITNET
Subject:      RE: Potty Training

I see it all the time.  I have to check them to see that nothing is wrong
in any of them, such as leaking pipes, and such.  You should see what women
write.

Now for the letdown.  Mostly they don't write anything for the most part.
Where I am they are much neater.  For another thing, most of them remember
to flush the toilets when they leave, and throw their paper towels into
the wastebasket instead of in the toilet, and their bathrooms do not smell.

                                          Chris Morrison
                                            CMorriso@snyescva.bitnet

As to how I know?  Well, because they are separate.  If they weren't
businesses could save a lot of money.  Of course, under the right
circumstances and if people could be assured that they would have
sufficient privacy, and they thought it was socially acceptable, then
we could have integrated bathrooms in public places.  Actually, when
there is just one sink and toilet such as in a hospital or doctor's
office, you usually do have just one.  Now the college dorm somebody
mentioned seemed like a nice arrangement, without any problems.  But
somebody else mentioned Phyllis Tschlafly (whatever), and that is an
example of just how uptight people get when you change things that they
are familiar with and disorient them.

                                            Chris
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Date:         Mon, 14 Sep 1992 21:20:48 -0500
From:         MARTIN FOX <FOXML@RHODES.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: vote early, vote often ...

Jamie's bout of sarcasm was right on the proverbial target.  Why does anyone
care how much Bush (Etc. Etc. Etc.) resembles Truman?  Truman was, in my mind,
at least, the worst Democratic president of the 20th Century. (He was better,
of course than all the 20th Cent. Republican presidents, with the possible
exception of Teddy Roosevelt, but that's an entirely different issue...)
   It's wonderfully ironic, though to see Bush compare himself to a Demo.
with
opposition from a Repub. Congress.  Whatever happened to party loyalty?
  (Although if I remember correctly, Reagan did quote FDR..)

Martin

  Post-Script: Could anyone tell me, as a newcomer, what the hell this "Blood
from a turnip" is about?  It's possible that this is an arcane political topic
with terminology so obscure that I'm missing all meaning whatsoever...
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Date:         Mon, 14 Sep 1992 01:23:19 EST
From:         Kerry Stephenson <KSTE@PURCCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: read my lips: I have family values

Chris:

The real reason people without teaching certificates aren't allowed to
teach is that they haven't completed the requisite educational
indoctrination courses.  And they haven't made enough bulletin boards.

There are many fine people in business, private industry, and government
who would make excellent teachers but are not allowed to teach at the
lower levels.  I think this is particularly stupid, since they *are*
allowed to teach in colleges and universities, whether they have any
degrees or not.

Go figure.

--Missy P 2 B
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Date:         Fri, 11 Sep 1992 12:52:22 EDT
From:         Jane Ballard <T400094@UNIVSCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Clinton Mailing List

A friend of mine (not a student) is interested in a Clinton/Gore mailing list
similar to the one for Bush.  Can anybody give me some information on this?

Many thanks!
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Organization: Computer Science Department,  Stanford University.
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Date:         Sun, 13 Sep 1992 13:57:27 -0700
From:         Andy Freeman <andy@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU>
Subject:      Re: read my lips: I have family values

>Some of the arguments were that private are better  because they
>graduate better students.  Allow me to explain why this is wrong.

Cool.  Let's see how general the explanation is.

>I attended public school throughout my educational career.
>I started in kindergarten and finished with 12th grade.
>
>In fourth grade I was tested for the gifted and talented program
>in my parish(I remind people I am from Louisiana and we don't have
>counties) and began attending the gifted program in the fifth.

My public school system started a gifted program, but canceled it
for economic reasons.

The private school in town may not have had a gifted program, but
regular program was significantly more advanced than that offered by
the private school.  Their remedial program was also better.

>That is one strike against private schools--they lack the capacity
>to provide enrichment for the upper and lower ends of the academic
>spectrum adequately.

No they don't.  Some may, some may not.  Just like public schools.

>Many went on to private four-year colleges like Rhodes.

Which Rhode college is that?  Rhode Island University in Kingston,
Rhode Island College in Providence, Rhode Island Junior College
in Warwick, or Rhode Island School of Design in Providence?

-andy

ps - A "Rhodes Scholar" is a recipient of a scholarship set up by a
rich, but dead, oppressor and exploiter of Africa.  (Said recipients
attend various colleges in the UK.)  There used to be a country named
after him.
--
UUCP:    {arpa gateways, sun, decwrl, uunet, rutgers}!cs.stanford.edu!andy
ARPA:    andy@cs.stanford.edu
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Date:         Tue, 15 Sep 1992 15:02:31 -0500
From:         Jason Briggs Cormier <CORJB@RHODES.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: French & EC

Martin:

I think you are too idealistic.  Humanity requires
hate(read my editorial in this week's paper), which
in turn leads to division and war and the like.

Humanity cannot live without it.  We haven't matured
to that point yet.

Therefore, we shouldn't try to do something for which
our collective pshyche isn't ready.

j.b.
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Date:         Fri, 4 Sep 1992 16:12:34 EST
From:         macphil <IQTI400@INDYCMS.IUPUI.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Rights, and other comments ...
Comments: To: Forum for the Discussion of Politics <POLITICS@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu>

On Fri, 4 Sep 1992 15:44:00 EDT <GRACZ1@ITHACA> said:
>>So Val, if everyone has a right to live without regulation of the state,
>>then what is the state for?  What is democracy for??
>>-Travis
>     Well, I may not be Val, but here's my view.  Government should mainly
>   serve to protect us from each other, mainly through criminal law, and
>   to deal in foreign policy.  Of course, people have different definitions
>   of what is an infringement on their rights, but I think that government
>   as a protector from the injustices that people enact upon each other is
>   a decent rule.

Which reminds me of a question I meant to post in followup about a month
ago to a post which said the purpose of a democracy was not to follow
the whims of the majourity but to protect the rights of the minority.

Rights, rights, rights.  What about responsibilities?  Since we have
a Bill of Rights, what about a Bill of Responsibilites?  We continually
hear everyone who can get airtime scream about their "rights being
violated" but we see little about those same people assuring us they
themselves are "responsible citizens" in return.

So what should be in a Bill of Responsibilities?

------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The lesser of two evils is still evil." - Winston Churchill

MacPhil / iqti400@indycms.bitnet / iqti400@indycms.iupui.edu
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Date:         Sat, 12 Sep 1992 01:26:47 EST
From:         Kerry Stephenson <KSTE@PURCCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: It's always the money

G. Racz:

I don't know about your statement that people deserve art more than
they do the stealth bomber.  But a good deal of what passes for
art deserves the stealth bomber more than it does continued funding.

--Missy P 2 B
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Date:         Tue, 15 Sep 1992 02:53:00 EST
From:         Tyrone Slothrop <199561011@VUVAXCOM.BITNET>
Subject:      RE: Homosexuality: Isn't this where I left?

From:         Carolyn Robinson <CAROLYNR@BROWNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      RE: Homosexuality: Isn't this where I left?

>From:         Tyrone Slothrop <199561011@VUVAXCOM.BITNET>
         hey carolyn, good to see you back!

Thanks, Mr. Slothrop. Good to be back, even when I'm being discussed as
an abstract, immoral entity.

        well, not all of us think you are immoral.  unfortunately,
        in political/philosophical debates, there is a tendency
        toward abstraction which dehumanizes the issues, but also
        makes it possble for such discussion to take place at all.

>
>        that is very cool.  good luck to both of you.
>
>        never claimed that it did.  jason was advocating not
>        allowing people to adopt due to sexual orientation.  i was
>        just asking him if he extended his ban to biological children
>        as well.

Thank you. I know you didn't. I'm sorry that it seemed like I was aiming
at you. I figured that might happen, but I was too lazy to deal with it.

        thats what i figgered, but there was always the chance that
        i'd been misunderstood (its happened before).

--CAROLYN M. ROBINSON

        CAROLYNR@BROWNVM
        CAROLYNR@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU

        brni
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Date:         Tue, 8 Sep 1992 16:31:00 EDT
From:         GRACZ1@ITHACA.BITNET
Subject:      Re: The War Between the Jasons

>
>Jamie, do separate-sex bathrooms in public buildings violate equal
>protection???

     Are separate-sex bathrooms mandated by law?  They may be offered
   as a convenience, which would make it legal to step inside a bathroom
   designated for the opposite sex.  Of course, if there is someone in
   the bathroom who doesn't want you there, s/he can claim you were
   committing voyeurism.

>I don't think that the 14th Amendment or any other Amendment ever
>was meant to preclude the state from keeping a moral society.  To
>most Americans (don't let the pink triangle fool you), homosexuality
>is grossly immoral--you can hear it from Jerry Falwell, or you can
>read it on the bathroom wall.

    1.  How do you know that the majority of Americans find homosexuality
            "grossly immoral"?  Does Jerry Falwell represent the majority?
             Do the majority of Americans write on bathroom walls?  Or
             is it the case that there is a minority on each side that
             cares about the issue, and a majority that would rather
             not be bothered?(as seems to be the case in most issues)

    2.  Since when was US law designed to cater to the majority?  I always
            saw the reason for the system of checks and balances to
            be the protection of the minority from the majority.


>-Travis



                   --G. Racz
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Date:         Fri, 4 Sep 1992 19:57:53 CDT
From:         "The Truth (some assembly required)" <T9AA@SDSUMUS.BITNET>
Subject:      who do you trust

>Why is our government providing price supports for tobacco which is
>recognized by the medical establishment as one of the most potent and
>addictive drugs available? For those of you predisposed to the word of
>god approach, isn't there something about all the herbs being created
>for the use of man? For those of you worried about your children, they
>are statistically far more likely to die from alcohol related accidents
>than from aids or using any illegal drugs. Same goes for tobacco.

Right now, Tobacco is the only COMMERCIALLY VIABLE (or LEGAL AND
COMMERCIALLY VIABLE - Marijuana will grow anywhere) crop that can
be grown in the area in question. I've seen corn grown there, and
if I was the farmer, I'd be ashamed to feed it to my pigs. A large
amount of the land there was taken off cotton production before the
war because cotton would't grow there, either. At least after two or
three years of planting.  Wendell Berry has a good article about that
in the most recent Utne.

Dave
t9aa@sdsumus.bitnet
Well, I know you gave up cigarrettes for your new years resolution,
but you didn't give up SMOKIN'
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Date:         Wed, 9 Sep 1992 16:25:00 EDT
From:         Travis Kidd <TKIDD@CLEMSON.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: It's always the money

On Wed, 9 Sep 1992 11:35:46 EDT Jamie <PL436000@BROWNVM.BITNET> said:
>>Ohhh..... You mean the "Good Book".  That shouldn't cost a dime.  Jus t
>>snag them from hotel rooms and let the Gideons replace them.
>
> Gideons would be glad to give you all the bibles you can stand.
>
> I got mine from some Gideons on the street. It was a very pleasant
> encounter.
>
> I asked if it was the King James version. They said it was, and that
> they find the "Good News" version disgusting. I agreed. We had a nice
> conversation about the relative merits of translations. They extolled
> Exodus. I praised Song of Songs.

Funny you should mention the Gideons.  They were here at Clemson passing
out New Testaments (/c Psalms+Proverbs) today.

> If Jesus ever does come back, he'll be quite pleased with the
> Gideons, I think.
Well, considering what happened the first time...

> Jamie
-Travis
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Date:         Mon, 14 Sep 1992 01:41:13 EST
From:         Kerry Stephenson <KSTE@PURCCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: The Virtue of Rationality

Chris:

I understand your point, but I doubt if the Pilgrims would have been
so gauche as to have announced to the world their intention to write
someone a private letter.

It just isn't done.  :-)

--Missy P 2 B
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Date:         Fri, 11 Sep 1992 10:29:19 EST
From:         Kerry Stephenson <KSTE@PURCCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: marching at p.parenthood

Jenna:

Your information on Bush is correct.  He was a primary architect of
the Family Planning Act and received awards from Planned Parenthood.
He has been pro-life since 1980 (similar to the seachange in the
other direction suffered by both Clinton and Gore, who used to be
pro-life and are now pro-choice).  Whether any of them can be trusted
on the issue is an open question.

As to the Planned Parenthood protest, PP is the primary provider of
abortions worldwide, and the picketing is to object to that fact and
to the use of tax dollars to support that activity.  In addition, the
new direction of the pro-life movement in the 1990s is into direct
action, and you can expect to see a good deal more of it in the months
to come.

Speaking of which, you free speech advocates out there might be interested
to know that, on September 29, a case will be argued before the Texas Supreme
Court that stands a good chance of moving up in the system fast.  At
issue is the "gospel-free zone" declared by a judge in Houston surrounding
clinics.  The injunction prohibits preaching, prayer, and singing
(specifically including *silent* *individual* prayer) within the zone.
Several people have been arrested under the injunction, and the case
will determine whether such things are constitutionally protected
activities (on public property, by the way.)  We shall see.

--Missy P 2 B
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Date:         Mon, 7 Sep 1992 12:22:23 EST
From:         Kerry Stephenson <KSTE@PURCCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Reply to Missy (and all interested) about the Bosnian
              conflict
              7 Sep 1992 12:46:00 +0200 from <HOUSSAH5@EGAUCACS>

Gilbert:

Wrong again.  Let's even concede that we *are* the world's police force.
Even *then*, we get to decide what conflicts are a threat to "the
world" and which are not.  If the Bosnian conflict does not threaten
the interests of "the world," then it is a regional responsibility to
deal with it.  As it happens, in real political terms, the conflict in
Bosnia is no more a threat to "the world" than is the British conflict
with the Irish Republican Army.  When was the last time that we (or
the UN, for that matter) sent troops to settle the Northern Ireland
question?

--Missy P 2 B
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Date:         Mon, 7 Sep 1992 13:15:35 EDT
From:         K=A*T <MEC038@UKCC.UKY.EDU>
Subject:      Bad v. Harmful

Earlier Richard suggested that the following two statements
are equally logical.

      That which is bad is harmful.
      That which is harmful is bad.

I would like to disagree with that.  Cutting nails is not harmful
and therefore is not bad.  Cutting fingers, on the other hand, is
harmful and therefore bad.

Without getting theoretical -- not that I can -- it seems to me that
one can easily define harmful without the knowledge of whether it
is bad but the reverse is not always easily done.

--KAT
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