HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: athos@apple.com (Rick Eames)
Newsgroups: ba.politics
Subject: Re: HERSCHENSOHN: Flat Rate Tax (Q&A)
Date: 9 Sep 92 17:54:57 GMT
Followup-To: ba.politics,ca.politics
Organization: Apple Computer, Inc.

In article <89rnl6f.loren@netcom.com>, loren@netcom.com (Loren Hart) wrote:

> No it doesn't help me.  The 19% is calculated to keep the amount of
> income the same even if the taxes aren't taken out.  This approach
> would INCREASE my federal income tax liability by about $2000 per
> year.  I am NOT willing to pay more so that the idle rich don't have to
> pay anything.
Weird.  I pay less on his plan, and I am certainly not "rich."  I don't own
a home, so don't benefit from the government subsidy of the housing
industry.  I make around $45,000.  So, my tax would be on (45000 - 11400 [I
am married] = 33,600)  So my tax would be $6384.  That's *much* less than I
paid last year.

If you're a homeowner, you've been getting a good deal for too long.  I
don't see *how* you'd be paying more.  You can still invest and make money
there.  You can sell your home then take *all* of that money TAX FREE.

> This has not acctually been signed into Law yet and the House bill
> doesn't include this ammendment.  It will hopefully go away in
> comittee.  Anyway, It makes sense to keep this limit reasonably high.
> Just because I believe in a reasonably high limit, doesn't mean that I
> believe in getting rid of it.

I believe in getting rid of it completely.  You've already been taxed on
that money, why should your kids?
 
> Those people that have more investments and therefore more investment
> income benifit substantially from Herschenson's plan.  Those that earn
> most of their money from their hard work gain less benafit, and many
> will pay MORE tax.  It only makes sense, he says that the same ammount
> of money will be taken in; the idle rich are paying less (maybe none);
> simple math requires that SOMEBODY has to pay more to make up for those
> that are paying less.

As can you and I.  I don't begrudge the rich like many of you do.  If they
benefit like I do, fine.  I would do far more investing under this plan
than I do now.

--
Rick Eames
athos@apple.com
My opinions are my own, thank you very much!
HERSCHENSOHN for US Senate.  Just say "No" to 6 years of Boxer!
Newsgroups: ba.politics
From: J056600@LMSC5.IS.LMSC.LOCKHEED.COM
Subject: Re: Letter to KQED-FM
Organization: Lockheed Missiles & Space Company, Inc.
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 92 21:07:02 GMT

In <BuFHy9.FGq@wrs.com>, Richard Stueven writes:

>You may not be aware that Mr. Marrou will be appearing in Pleasanton on
>September 16.  This is a great opportunity for your station to provide
>coverage that no other station in the Bay Area, radio or television, and
>probably no print media, will provide.  Because I will be out of town that
>evening and unable to attend, I will make this offer:  I will pay the
>price of admission for up to two people that attend on KQED-FM business.
>If you are interested, please contact me on XXX-XXX-XXXX by September 15,
>and I will send a check.  I have included a copy of the invitation with
>this letter.

Marrou will also be in Sunnyvale on the 17th and San Francisco on the 18th.
I will be at the Sunnyvale event.  Anyone interested should call their local
LP chapter.

>I have heard a number of reports on the campaigns of Barbara Boxer and
>Diane Feinstein, especially regarding the fact that two women are running
>for the two Senate seats.  I have heard nothing about June Genis, a third
>woman in the race, who is a Libertarian candidate for the Senate.  Ms.
>Genis is running against Ms. Boxer and Bruce Hershensohn.  I have included
>a complete list of Libertarian candidates with this letter.

June often writes here.  I don't know many people looking forward to having
Boxer or Herschensohn.  These are two extremists.  Many Democrats despise
Boxer and many Republicans despise Herschensohn.  Ms. Genis could (and IMHO,
should) benefit from the general distaste many have for both candidates.  But
you'd never guess that judging by the media reporting!  June has my vote.

Not only will the Marrou/Lord ticket appear nationwide, in many states Marrou
stands a good chance of getting 5% of the total vote.  In some states, the 5%
will give the LP "major party" status and will ensure automatic qualification
for future ballots and the ability to run primaries.

Tim Irvin  j056600@lmsc5.is.lmsc.lockheed.com
*************************************************************************
"Just say *no* to the Republicrats if you want REAL change!" -- Me
From: bc151@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ken Fisler)
Newsgroups: ba.politics
Subject: List for the Discussion of the Presidential Campaign
Date: 14 Sep 92 08:59:11 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: slc4.ins.cwru.edu



I thought this might be of interest to some members of this
newsgroup:

There is now on Bitnet a list for the discussion of the '92
presidential campaign. Discussion is unmoderated and focusses
primarily on important, current campaign issues, though, like the
campaign itself, some discussion occasionally degrades to
spurious non-issues. Threads sometimes lead into critical
analyses of political history, the media, and campaign
strategies. Many members of this list post exerpts from books,
magazines, journals, newspapers, television reportage, and
academic studies as well as the full text of position papers and
speeches given by the candidates. A meaningful number of list
members understand the inherent union of theory and praxis and,
given the nature of the discussions, the flame level is very
tolerably and surprisingly low. If all you've heard and read thus
far hasn't parted the sea of sound bites, if you're looking for
information and analysis of current issues or have something to
give or express yourself, this may be a viable group to join.

To subscribe, send to: LISTSERV@MARIST (from a Bitnet address)
or LISTSERV@MARIST.BITNET (from and Internet address) the
message: SUB CLINTON <your first name> <your last name>


	Internet:	bc151@cleveland.freenet.edu
	Bitnet: 	bc151%cleveland.freenet.edu@cunyvm
	Audio:		Ken Fisler
Newsgroups: ba.politics,ca.politics
From: loren@netcom.com (Loren Hart)
Subject: Re: HERSCHENSOHN: Flat Rate Tax (Q&A)
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 92 01:47:37 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 

athos@Apple.COM (Richard Eames) writes:
: loren@netcom.com (Loren Hart) writes:
: 
: >Notice that this makes the idle rich pay absolutly no taxes at all!
: >The only category of income tax left is Earned Income.  Using this
: >approach, someone who makes Millions of dollars on various investment
: >income pays $0 in income tax.  I don't necessarly believe that the rich
: >should be taxed more heavily than everyone else, but they should pay
: >something.
: 
: It also helps *you* since anything you make doing the above too.  Why is it
: if the rich happen to benifit from something that we do, we get all bent
: out of shape?

No it doesn't help me.  The 19% is calculated to keep the amount of
income the same even if the taxes aren't taken out.  This approach
would INCREASE my federal income tax liability by about $2000 per
year.  I am NOT willing to pay more so that the idle rich don't have to
pay anything.


: >I would also like to point out that the federal estate tax is only
: >charged on estates larger than $600,000 dollars.  Again, this is
: >something that would benifit the very rich.
: 
: Check again.  The US Congress, in their wisdom, has passed a bill to the 
: Senate lowering that to $200,000!  It's in a elderly-care bill.

This has not acctually been signed into Law yet and the House bill
doesn't include this ammendment.  It will hopefully go away in
comittee.  Anyway, It makes sense to keep this limit reasonably high.
Just because I believe in a reasonably high limit, doesn't mean that I
believe in getting rid of it.

: 
: >It is clear that Herschensohn is interested in a tax break for the very
: >rich and putting that burden on us working stiffs.
: 
: Not really. All people benfit from the same rules.  We simplify the tax
: laws, make life easier and allow you to keep more of your income.  Somehow,
: if the "rich" benfit from it as well, you're flipping out.

Those people that have more investments and therefore more investment
income benifit substantially from Herschenson's plan.  Those that earn
most of their money from their hard work gain less benafit, and many
will pay MORE tax.  It only makes sense, he says that the same ammount
of money will be taken in; the idle rich are paying less (maybe none);
simple math requires that SOMEBODY has to pay more to make up for those
that are paying less.

Every time they "simplify" the income tax, I personally end up paying
more income tax by a percentage of my gross income.  Have you seen the
simplified two line tax form:

	1.  How much money did you earn last year? ____________
	2.  Send it in.


-- 
=============================================================================
Mr Loren L. Hart                                       The Ada Ace Group, Inc
loren@netcom.com                                       P.O. Box 36195
				                       San Jose, CA  95158
Newsgroups: ba.politics,ca.politics
From: guido@island.COM (Guido Marx)
Subject: Re: HERSCHENSOHN: Flat Rate Tax (Q&A)
Organization: Island Graphics Corp.  San Rafael, Ca.
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 21:37:52 GMT

In article <b7ynalm.phil@netcom.com> phil@netcom.com (Phil Ronzone) writes:
>
>You are so ignorant. The rich do NOT put money into S&L's. They have always
>been a lousy investment. When you have $100K or more to invest, banks and
>S&L's are about the last place you invest.

Phil, the rich sure as heck DID benefit from the S&L bailout.  Mr.
Miliken (and others) figured out that they could act as the middlemen
in LBO's, and thereby get money (insured by our tax-dollars) out of
S&L's.  It is extermely unlikely that they could have sold these 
junk-bonds without access to money which was insured.  The guys
running the S&L's really didn't care if the investment was risky, they
just wanted something with a high return.  After all, its not like it
was their money they were risking (they weren't even risking their
depositers money).

A second way in which wealthy people benefited from from the collapse of
the S&L's was through instruments called "brokered deposits".  These were
large pools of money which S&L's in trouble would purchase at ammounts
far above the going rate (so they could avoid getting siezed - these were
used to meet liquidity requirements).  Of course, the Federal Gov't made 
the decision that if your S&L was large enough, the $100,000 limit on 
insurance didn't matter - they would cover it anyway.  Wealthy people, 
in fact, DID put their money in S&L's - and a lot of it.

A third way in which wealthy people benefitted from the S&L fiasco is
that they ran the businesses which got the questionable loans.  The
former head of Eureka Savings got a personal (unsecured line-of-credit)
loan for $10 million shortly before the bank was siezed.  At the time,
he already had a substantial loan which was in arrears.  I assume that 
he was what you or I would call wealthy (he certainly was after the loan).
You could also ask Neal Bush about questionable business loans from
failed S&L's, and how much he personally made on those deals.

Guido


Xref: sparky ba.politics:5336 ca.politics:7809
From: athos@apple.com (Rick Eames)
Newsgroups: ba.politics
Subject: Re: HERSCHENSOHN: Flat Rate Tax (Q&A)
Date: 14 Sep 92 02:26:22 GMT
Followup-To: ba.politics,ca.politics
Organization: Apple Computer, Inc.

In article <pno9bjg@fido.asd.sgi.com>, dauber@sgi.com (Jeff Dauber) wrote:

> I earn my salary.  I pay taxes on it.  When I buy a stereo, why should I
> pay taxes on the stereo as well?  I find it obscene that the us government
> sees fit to take a chunk of it.  I earned it, paid taxes on it.  Why tax
> it again?

I never said I *liked* sales taxes.  I don't.
 
> I earn my salary.  I pay taxes on it.  I use it to pay for my house.  I
> also have to pay taxes on my house.  I find it obscene that the us government
> sees fit to take another chunk of it.  I earned it, I bought my house,
> why tax it again?

Hello?  Hello? Had you read Mr. Herschensohn's tax plan (the reason this
tread exists) you would notice you wouldn't HAVE to pay any tax on your
house.
 
> Rick, welcome to the big bad world.  You get taxed any time money changes
> hands.  When it changes hands, it becomes new money, and they tax it again.

That's why I am fighting it.  It's stupid.  The House has, as we speak,
passed a bill (HR: 4848) that will further rape you. If you're happy with
that, be the ball.

I am not happy with that.

--
Rick Eames                               My Opinions Are My Own (not
Apple's)
athos@apple.com

HERSCHENSOHN for US Senate.  Just say "No" to Barbara Boxer.
Newsgroups: ba.politics,talk.politics.misc
From: phil@netcom.com (Phil Ronzone)
Subject: Re: The Harrassing Phone Calls Can Stop NOW!
Date: Mon, 07 Sep 92 18:36:52 GMT
Organization: Generally in favor of, but mostly random.
Followup-To: ba.politics
Distribution: na

In article <4301@wet.UUCP> mhi@wet.UUCP (Philip E. Murphy) writes:
>CLAYTON CRAMER - Epilogue 
    >The best any of you can do who read tripe like Cramer writes
    >is to ig- nore him. He craves attention and will respond to
    >anything written that he is even remotely in disagreement
    >with. The problem is - the U.S. is increasingly getting more
    >people like him. They lack the social experience, the
    >willingness to change, the insight to look at other people
    >and smile when they see other people having decent lives.
    >...
    >Fortunately there are so many more people on the net we can
    >listen to. You are always going to have people like him,
    >threatening retaliation. It re- minds me of the person who
    >yells "queer" or "nigger" from the window of a swiftly moving
    >car - eventually someone gets their license plate and turns
    >them in. What he has done so far is legal.
    >...
    >In closing, it would be nice to see a return to discussions
    >in ca.pol and ba.pol and talk.pol that actually reflect those
    >newsgroups.

Well, if you are so concerned with relevqnce in these newsgroups, then
why in hell did you just do what you've been complaining about -- attack
an individual?

If Clayton writes such "tripe", then it should be trivial to discredit him.

BUT -- all I see is the yahoo content increasing. Name calling, innuendo,
snide remarks, ANYTHING but rational discourse.

Now, you've managed a stereotypical PC peice of non-though in your
first paragrapgh -- to wit:

   "They lack the social experience, the willingness to change, the insight
    to look at other people and smile when they see other people having
    decent lives."

What "social experience"? Just what the hell does that mean? Maybe that
they haven't been in a homosexual bathouse and had sex with 50 random
strangers in one night? What?

Willingness to change? Change to what? From what? Why are you so concerned
with change? Perhaps you sense great problems with your life and lifestyle
and can not comprehend that some people have it together, so to speak.

Smile [at] other people having decent lives? Hmm, when a voluntary,
non-coercive private organization elects to accept/tolerate an organization
devoted to sex with young children, you have a problem.

Such "groups" as NAMBLA have evry right to use coercively governed facilities
(the State can not deny them a parade permit etc.), but the VOLUNTARY
acceptance of NAMBLA by the homosexual parade organizers speaks volumes.


-- 
phil@netcom.com (Phil Ronzone)

"I can't get no satisfaction ...", M. Jagger
"Yeah, right, tell me another one Mick.", P. Ronzone

These opinions are MINE, and you can't have 'em!  (But I'll rent 'em cheap ...)
Newsgroups: ba.politics
From: gnn@wsl.dec.com (George Neville-Neil)
Subject: Re: Picking and Choosing our References
Organization: Western Software Lab
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 92 20:09:05 GMT

In article <12227@optilink.UUCP> cramer@optilink.UUCP (Clayton Cramer) writes:
>In article <1992Sep9.130523@wsl.dec.com>, gnn@wsl.dec.com (George Neville-Neil) writes:
>> In article <mxsn45m.phil@netcom.com>, phil@netcom.com (Phil Ronzone) writes:
># |# Of course, you forgot to mention what a cabal of homosexual pigs would do
># |# if I opened (or tried to) a trendy bar/eatery in the Castro district.
># |# Somehow, I think the cabal would decide not to patronize me, no matter
># |# how good the food or eats were, just because I'm not one of them. And thus,
># |# I'd be out of business.
># |# 
># Bzzt.  Thanks for playing.  There are several non-gay owned places in the Castro.
># Including the local hardware store, Cliff's Variety.  Now if you were actively
># hostile to gays then you would probably lose all of you business.
>
>Oh?  You think it should be legal for homosexuals to be able to
>decide who to do business with, and shun homophobic businesses?
>I think we need a law to prohibit that sort of discrimination! :-)

Well then you should cal your govenor and tell him to sign
all of those anti-discrimination bills.

Of course, chicken shit that you are, you're afraid of a level
playing field.

There's always someone out there willing to hold the oven
door open for you to protect their privilege.



--
To fathom hell, or soar angelic, take a pinch of psychedelic.
				Dr. Osmond
Newsgroups: ba.politics
From: athos@apple.com (Rick Eames)
Newsgroups: ba.politics
Subject: Re: HERSCHENSOHN: Flat Rate Tax (Q&A)
Date: 15 Sep 92 19:23:00 GMT
Followup-To: ba.politics,ca.politics
Organization: Apple Computer, Inc.

In article <1992Sep14.174327.26630@kpc.com>, emmett@kpc.com (Emmett
Kilgariff) wrote:

> 	I know of a BIG, EXPENSIVE service the government provides
> 	that the rich benefit from, but the poor don't benefit much:
> 	All those federally insured deposits in S&L's and banks that
> 	went under that we'll be eating up  a large % of the federal 
> 	budget  (and your tax dollars) for years to come. 

What are you talking about?  That money is going to the *depositors,* most
of them old folks.  Hardly the idle rich.

--
Rick Eames                               My Opinions Are My Own (not
Apple's)
athos@apple.com

HERSCHENSOHN for US Senate.  Just say "No" to Barbara Boxer.
Newsgroups: ba.politics,ca.politics
From: phil@netcom.com (Phil Ronzone)
Subject: Re: Picking and Choosing our References
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 92 01:33:19 GMT
Organization: Generally in favor of, but mostly random.

In article <1992Sep10.095542@wsl.dec.com> gnn@wsl.dec.com (George Neville-Neil) writes:
>In article <p7sn=ag.phil@netcom.com>, phil@netcom.com (Phil Ronzone) writes:
    >>>Out of the hundreds of places in the Castro, there are
    >>>several that aren't owned by homosexuals. Wonderful.
    >>>
    >Of the hundreds? You idiot, obviously you've never even been
    >there.

No, I used to get my hair cut there all the time.

    >The Castro encompasses several city blocks of San Francisco,
    >the commercial parts are (approximately): Castro from
    >Market&17th to 19th 18th St. from about Collingwood to about
    >1 block E of Castro. Market St. from Castro to 15th St. The
    >total number of shops/restaurants is probably about 100.

As I said, hundreds. If the plural troubles you, there are the units
for rent and all the small businesses that are run out of homes.

    >>>Even more, someone KNOWS the sexual orientation of the owner
    >>>of a hardware store. Shit, I don't even know the name of the
    >>>owner of ANY of the stores I go to, much less their sexual
    >>>orientation.
    >>>
    >>>
    >Well, I happen to know the names of most of the owners, and
    >have met them, to the stores that I frequent. This includes
    >the grocery that I go to. You see, I actually give a shit
    >about how I live my life instead of living in a Safeway kind
    >of world.
    >
    >For someone who cares about personal rights you don't seem to
    >hot on even thinking about how you wield these rights and
    >responsibilities.
    >
    >Loser.

If you think the sexual orientation of the owners of the places you
patronize is important, why, that's your right. Thank you for being so
obvious about it. Clayton is so right about this.

For me, I don't give a shit about the sexual orientation of the
owners(s) of the places I patronize.

Thusly we indict ourselves, eh ...



-- 
phil@netcom.com (Phil Ronzone)

"I can't get no satisfaction ...", M. Jagger
"Yeah, right, tell me another one Mick.", P. Ronzone

These opinions are MINE, and you can't have 'em!  (But I'll rent 'em cheap ...)
Newsgroups: ba.politics,ca.politics
From: gnn@wsl.dec.com (George Neville-Neil)
Subject: Re: Picking and Choosing our References
Organization: Western Software Lab
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 92 20:15:16 GMT

In article <bsvnbzn.phil@netcom.com> phil@netcom.com (Phil Ronzone) writes:
>But come on now -- since stores do NOT, to my knowledge, post signs
>that state the sexual preferences (and skin color and sex and ...) of
>the owners (for the most part), then some degree of exertion must
>be made to find out, and even more exertion to post this knowledge
>to the net.
>
Plenty happen to put up a rainbow flag though.  Or they'll put up posters
about local queer happenings, as well as others.

>BTW -- unless you wish to state that stores in the Castro DO post
>sexual orientation of owners info (like "Gay Owned & Operated"), in which
>case the whole set of points of FOA and sexual orientation I've been
>making are correct.
>

No, your FOA stuff is still just psycho-mimetic bullshit.



--
To fathom hell, or soar angelic, take a pinch of psychedelic.
				Dr. Osmond
From: mike@fionn.lbl.gov (Michael Helm)
Newsgroups: ba.politics
Subject: Re: An interesting expiremnt that you too can try
Followup-To: alt.flame
Date: 13 Sep 1992 19:51:33 GMT
Organization: N.I.C.E.
Distribution: ba
Reply-To: mike@fionn.lbl.gov (Michael Helm)
NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.3.128.60

Phil Ronzone writes:
>The soc.motss was felt to be "heavily" disgusting. For example, two women
>could NOT believe that "this kind of stuff" was "allowed" to be posted
>(well, it wasn't the time for First Amendment discussions). An example of

Say, Phil, did you show them the article you posted -- I mean
CROSS-POSTED -- to about a half-dozen groups the other day?
You know, the one with that happy-go-lucky title?  (See References)
From: athos@apple.com (Rick Eames)
Newsgroups: ba.politics
Subject: Re: Letter to KQED-FM
Date: 14 Sep 92 02:21:19 GMT
Followup-To: ba.politics
Organization: Apple Computer, Inc.

In article <92255.50298.J056600@LMSC5.IS.LMSC.LOCKHEED.COM>,
J056600@LMSC5.IS.LMSC.LOCKHEED.COM wrote:

> >I have heard a number of reports on the campaigns of Barbara Boxer and
> >Diane Feinstein, especially regarding the fact that two women are running
> >for the two Senate seats.  I have heard nothing about June Genis, a third
> >woman in the race, who is a Libertarian candidate for the Senate.  Ms.
> >Genis is running against Ms. Boxer and Bruce Hershensohn.  I have included
> >a complete list of Libertarian candidates with this letter.

'Tis sad when believing in the letter and intent of the United States
Constitution gets you branded as a Republican Extremist.

I guess that just proves the sad lack of real education in our country...

*sigh*

--
Rick Eames                               My Opinions Are My Own (not
Apple's)
athos@apple.com

HERSCHENSOHN for US Senate.  Just say "No" to Barbara Boxer.
Newsgroups: ba.politics