HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: Mark_Brodsky@kcbbs.gen.nz (Mark Brodsky)
Newsgroups: rec.travel
Subject: Thanks & Question re:HK and Thailand inf
Date: 7 Nov 92 00:39:35 GMT
Organization: Kappa Crucis Unix BBS, Auckland, New Zealand

Thanks everyone who wrote back to me with travel advice on HK and Thailand. 
I won't risk a summary, because I do not have a PC (only a vt220 terminal), 
and therefore cannot edit mail at leisure from home. However, any of 
the following people who posted advice on Thailand (& some on HK) can 
probably be contacted for some excellent advice:

durham@mprgate.mpr.ca
ph00+@andrew.cmu.edu
kene@sequent.com
ecl@mtgzy.att.com
dgarvey@phys1.physics.wsu.edu.

I would like two more pieces of advice from the knowledgeable traveller:
1) I need a travelpack/backpack, sleeping bag and tramping boots to 
travel throught Thailand. Can good ones be bought for reasonable prices 
in Hong Kong (ie less than the US$200 travelpack, 100 sleeping bag and 
180 boots that they cost here), and if so where in HK?
2) Where is the best place to securely store anything I won't need while 
in Thailand on arrival to Bangkok (Airport? Railway Station? etc).

Thanks in Advance
Big Bad BROD
Alias Mark Brodsky
e-mail: Mark_Brodsky@kcbbs.gen.nz
Newsgroups: rec.travel
From: grimaldo@tokyo.seri.philips.nl (Emilio Grimaldo)
Subject: Re: *NEW* TRAVEL INFORMATION -- Panama
Organization: Philips Semiconductors, The Netherlands 
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 14:46:14 GMT

76702.1202@CompuServe.COM (Charlie Smith) writes:
: STATE DEPARTMENT TRAVEL INFORMATION - Panama Public Announcement
: ============================================================
: U.S. DEPARTMENT OF STATE
: 
: For Immediate Release
: November 3,1992
: 
: STATEMENT BY RICHARD BOUCHER/SPOKESMAN
: 
: PANAMA: POSSIBLE VIOLENCE
: 
: NOVEMBER 16 DUE TO THE POSSIBILITY OF VIOLENCE.  U.S. CITIZENS 
: TRAVELLING IN AND ABOUT PANAMA CITY AFTER DARK ARE URGED TO EXERCISE 
: CAUTION AND TO AVOID CROWDED PLACES SUCH AS BARS AND CLUBS.  IN 
: ADDITION, TRAVEL AFTER DARK ALONG THE
: TRANSISTHMIAN HIGHWAY IS STRONGLY DISCOURAGED.  PERSONS SEEKING 
: UPDATED INFORMATION REGARDING THIS SITUATION SHOULD CONTACT THE U.S. 
: EMBASSY IN PANAMA CITY.
: 
 Come on, I hope it is not because it was Nov. 3rd (Anniversary of separation
 from Colombia). Any big city is dangerous, if you seek trouble you will find
 it. It is true that nowadays (thanks to the oppression of the last decade
 and the social damage caused by the economic sanctions) crime has gone up
 and therefore it is advised to BE VERY careful at night.

 Personally, I would not travel at night in the Transisthmian highway.
                           Emilio
--
ADDRESS: PO Box 218,BE-543,5600 MD Eindhoven,The Netherlands   _/_/_/_/ 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
     * * PERSONAL OPINIONS AND THEREFORE NOT REPRESENTING MY EMPLOYER * *
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.travel
From: maren@sif.research.ptt.nl (Maren E. van)
Subject: Re: Nepal, India, Sri Lanka, Thailand
Organization: PTT Research
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 07:45:19 GMT

graham@vax.wi.edu (Justin Graham) writes:

>I'm planning a trip in February, March, maybe longer thru Delhi, Agra, Benares,
>Kathmandu, Bangkok, and Columbo, Sri Lanka, with the option to see some more 
>of India and Thailand.  Does anyone have any tips on places to go, good side
>trips, good deals on food or lodging, or any other advice?

>Benares, 
The best place I have been. I traveled, in october, for one month in India 
and Nepal, from Delhi to Jaipur, to Jodhpur, to Jaisalmer, back to 
Jodhpur, to Udaipur, to Puskhar, to Agra, to Benares, then to Kathmandu, 
and finally to Pokhara where I did the Ghorepani trek. 

Try to go to Jaisalmer, Puskar AND to Benares. Jaisalmer is a very quiet 
town with a spectacular fort in the great Indian Desert. It's  a 
medieval town, very warm and dusty but very nice. Especially the sun set 
is spectacular. Puskhar is one of the holy cities. There are a lot of 
weird people there, the town is very crowdy. You MUST go to Benares. 
This is the most impressive place I have been. It is so crowdy, you will 
find yourself in lines of rikshas, all ringing and blowing their horn. 
The way people are cremated at the borders of the Ganges is very impressive. 

One good advise: stay longer in India and Nepal. One month is far too short!

Have a nice trip, 

       Erik
From: ssriniva@moose.cs.indiana.edu (Suresh Srinivas)
Newsgroups: rec.travel
Subject: Washington D.C to Loudoun County (VA)
Date: 5 Nov 92 09:45:26 GMT
Article-I.D.: news.1992Nov5.144536.11776
Distribution: usa
Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington

A friend of mine would be travelling from Union Station in Washington DC to 
the Xerox Corporation Training Center, which is in Loudoun County, Va. 
On US Route 7, two miles east of Leesburg, and 35 miles northwest of
Washington DC.

She would like to know what is the best and the safest way to get there? 
Can she take a metro, or a bus? Please email your suggestions to 
mhr@cs.princeton.edu. If you reply to me, I can forward it to her.

Thank you for your time,

--Suresh Srinivas 
Newsgroups: rec.travel
From: smezias@rnd.GBA.NYU.EDU (Stephen J. Mezias)
Newsgroups: rec.travel
Subject: Re: Cheap Place to stay in NYC
Date: 9 Nov 92 17:26:43 GMT
Organization: NYU Stern School of Business

In article <KANAZAWA.92Nov9085923@miller.cs.ubc.ca> kanazawa@cs.ubc.ca
(Keiji Kanazawa) writes: 
>
>Does anybody know a nice place to stay for 2-3 weeks for cheap in New
>York City or vicinity?  By cheap, I mean less than $50 a night.

Hotel 17 has rooms for about $150 per week, shared bath.  The hotel
itself is a bit run-down but it is in a good neighborhood.

SJM
Newsgroups: rec.travel
From: dunbar@boulder.Colorado.EDU (S Dunbar)
Subject: Re: UTA?
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: 10 Nov 92 22:37:44 GMT

nelson_p@apollo.hp.com (Peter Nelson) writes:


>  My wife and I anticipate traveling to French Polynesia
>  in December.  All our travel agent could get was UTA.
>  I've never traveled on, and barely heard of, UTA.
>  Any info, comments, insights, etc?   Thanks in advance.


UTA is a subsidary of Air France, it may have the best times and schedules
into Fr. Pol.  I flew Qantas when i went and loved the service that we
got on Qantas.  Let me know if you need any info on Fr. Pol, I spent 2 weeks
there in August on my honeymoon.  Bora Bora is the Best Island as far as beauty
and all, bring lots of money and then some.  

Scott


 
Scott\      /\/\  /|email: dunbar@boulder.colorado.edu
  /***\  /\/*/**\/*|Department of Molecular, Cellular, and Developmental Biology
 /  /\ \/**\/    \ |University of Colorado at Boulder, Boulder, CO  80309-0347
From: pugh@pico.math.ucla.edu (David Pugh)
Newsgroups: rec.travel
Subject: DRIVING ACROSS THE FRUITED PLAINS (USA)
Date: 9 Nov 92 16:57:41 GMT
Article-I.D.: math.1992Nov9.165741.5261
Distribution: usa
Organization: UCLA Mathematics Department

Hello fellow travelers,

I will be driving from LA to Montreal in early December. Can anyone
suggest a good route (freeways prefered)? My main concerns are

 1) I don't have tire chains so I would like to avoid as much snow
    as possible (i.e. avoid Denver?) (I have a Toyota Corolla - doesn't
    like going up lots of hills too much)
 2) I want the scenery to be reasonably interesting...
 3) A fairly straight route.
 4) I would like to look around 'interesting' cities on the way.
 5) Total travel time - around 9-10 days
 6) Number 1) has priority over 2) !

The total distance I believe is 3000 miles or so. If anyone has driven
across the states, any tips please? Any recommendations for motel chains,
spare things for the car, insurance ...

Many thanks in advance!
Replies to pugh@math.ucla.edu would be greatly appreciated (or to this
article)

David Pugh
From: jacob@ponder.csci.unt.edu (Tom Jacob)
Newsgroups: rec.travel
Subject: Best Paris Restaurant?
Date: 9 Nov 92 20:54:08 GMT
Organization: University of North Texas, Denton

We are going to Paris in January on an eating expedition and plan to visit
one top-rated no-expense-barred restaurant.  Where should we go?  Or to put
the question another way: If you had $100-$200 per person to spend on one
meal in Paris, where would you go?

Since we don't have an infinite amount of money, we'll also be looking for
good cheap bistros, brasseries, wine bars, etc.  In the past, we've always
stayed in the 6th, so we're pretty familiar with that area.  However, this
time we're staying in the 9th, which is relatively unknown to us.  Anyone
know any good places around there?

Tom Jacob                                    jacob@ponder.csci.unt.edu
Department of Computer Science
University of North Texas
Newsgroups: rec.travel
From: sheen@cs.uwp.edu (Leslie Sheen)
Subject: Re: World Travel
Organization: University of Wisconsin - Parkside
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 20:03:00 GMT
From: lsnow@ncrclm.ClemsonSC.NCR.COM (Linda Snow)
Newsgroups: rec.travel
Subject: Re: advice on travel to Maritime Provences
Keywords: B&B
Date: 4 Nov 92 18:01:42 GMT
Reply-To: lsnow@ncrclm.ClemsonSC.NCR.COM (Linda Snow)
Organization: NCR E&M CLEMSON Liberty, SC

>We are all adults with no children or pets who have money to spend.

                                        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


It's probably a good thing your pets have no money to spend.  Unless
they were kangaroos, where would they keep their wallets?

(Sorry. The devil made me do it).

Newsgroups: rec.travel
From: amdease@pbhyc.PacBell.COM (Ann Dease)
Subject: Upgrade Coupons
Organization: Pacific * Bell
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 17:04:08 GMT


I have (2) one-way first class upgrade tickets that I'd like to
sell.  They are for Northwest, and as stated on the coupons are
"confirmed upgrade on any published fare within the 48 contiguous 
US and Canada"...travel must be completed by 3/30/93.

Asking $150 for both.  Respond via email.
Newsgroups: rec.travel
From: pwebb@void.ncsa.uiuc.edu (Peter Webb)
Subject: Re: DRIVING ACROSS THE FRUITED PLAINS (USA)
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 21:10:35 GMT

ncole@nyx.cs.du.edu (Noah Cole) writes:
: pugh@pico.math.ucla.edu (David Pugh) writes:
: 
: >Hello fellow travelers,
: 
: >I will be driving from LA to Montreal in early December. Can anyone
: >suggest a good route (freeways prefered)? My main concerns are

Take I-10 from LA to I-40 in Arizona (maybe you can get I-40 in CA somewhere).
Follow I-40 through St. Louis to I-70 in Indiana (Indianapolis).  Take I-70
to Columbus Ohio, then go north on (I-forget) to I-80 through PA. Before I-80
emerges in NJ, go north on I-87 into NY and either follow it up into Canada or
catch the Mass Pike (I-90) West to I-91 North and go up that way.  I'm not
sure which is the best way to Montreal.

			Peter Webb (pwebb@ncsa.uiuc.edu)

Newsgroups: rec.travel
From: wernerc@Informatik.TU-Muenchen.DE (Christian Werner)
Subject: Route 66
Keywords: Route66, LA, Ca
Originator: wernerc@hphalle2a.informatik.tu-muenchen.de
Organization: Technische Universitaet Muenchen, Germany
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 12:10:13 GMT



I'm planning to travel from Chicago to LA on Route 66 and so I'm
looking for some information about this, e.g. what is the best time to do this,
some nice places to visit on this tour, how much time is needed.
I also want to know if it's better to rent a car or to buy one, and
if i bought one, are there any problems with driving licence, insurance.
In California, what place a ok to visit, which not ??
Are there any general safety-points to keep in mind ??
Arr - one of the most imporant points....the costs....
what will it cost to rent or buy a car, what about Motels & food ??


	Thanx
		SAS


----------------------------------------------------------
Don't worry if you can't understand women's behaviour, just
try to live with them....
----------------------------------------------------------
SAS is Christian Werner, TU-Muenchen, Germany
e-mail: wernerc@informatik.tu-muenchen.de


Newsgroups: rec.travel
From: jlong@uhunix.uhcc.Hawaii.Edu (John Long)
Subject: Re: Information about Hawaii
Organization: University of Hawaii
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 01:35:11 GMT

In article <1992Nov3.110829.21135@rdg.dec.com> kulla@casee.enet.dec.com () writes:
>
>|>I need information about Hawaii.
>|>
>|>If you know any:
>|>
>|> - Tips
>|> - What islands to visit
>|> - What places you recommend to go
>|> - Cheap airfares
>|> - Coupons that you can buy here or there
>|> - Vouchers that I could get for hotel/airplane
>|> - Or any other useful information
>..
>
>Why not just put "I'm going on vacation, any suggestions?".  I think
>this kind of question is absurd.  Do a bit of research on your own,
>and then ask some questions.  Come on, do a little work, then people
>will be glad to help you.
>
>Marc

I don't see anything wrong with asking. Should I write a Hawaii FAQ?
Seems like the questions asked would be a good start...

Marc, a public scolding for asking a few reasonable questions is kind of 
harsh, no? 

-LongJohn

Newsgroups: rec.travel
From: prodwork@lis.rch.unimelb.edu.au ()
Subject: Yucatan
Summary: Yucatan, Guatamala,Belize
Keywords: Yucatan Guatamala Belize Maya
Organization: Computer Science, University of Melbourne, Australia
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 00:14:36 GMT

I am leaving for the Yucatan in about 4 weeks time and would be grateful
for any info from recent travellers to that part of the world. Guatamala
and Belize are also on the menu so information on visa requirements
for an Australian, news on the political unrest in remote regions would
be helpful and generally the best sights on the "La routa Maya". I will
have approximately 5 weeks travelling time so I think I will use a
combination of plane/train/bus/hire car - good idea ??

thanks mike
From: saxena@smsun9.crd.ge.com
Newsgroups: rec.travel
Subject: Options for taking money to Italy?
Date: 13 Nov 92 16:06:34 GMT
Reply-To: saxena@smsun9.crd.ge.com ()
Organization: General Electric Corp. R&D, Schenectady, NY

Hi 

 We will be in Italy between 10/14 - 10/24. Can anyone advice me
on the following options for taking money (Note: A lot of the
hotels where we are staying do not take credit cards).
    1.	Take traveller's checks in US dollars and look
	around there for good places for an exchange.
    2.	Take traveller's checks in Italian Lire from
	some Italian Bank in New York City (By the
	way is anyone aware of any such bank? - I am
	presuming there must be some). 

 Any advice on this topic will be greatly appreciated.

 Thanks

 Mukul Saxena
 email: saxena@crd.ge.com
Newsgroups: rec.travel
From: anne@cs.UAlberta.CA (Anne J.R. Nield)
Subject: Re: Alberta, CANADA
Organization: University of Alberta, Edmonton, Canada
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 20:00:55 GMT

jgostin@mal-s1.gatech.edu (Jill Gostin) writes:

>My husband and I will be going to Alberta in early July, 1993. We're
>going to an international barbershop (music) competition, so we'll
>probably be near a convention area. We most likely will not have a 
>car. 

>We'd like recommendations for restaurants, places to see, how to get
>around town, and what the weather will be like. Neither of us have
>been to Canada before, do we need our passports for a week long stay?
>Also some general info would be appreciated -- like what is the
>area known for and what is its history? If there is a tourist bureau
>we can call for info, we'd like the #!

The 800 number from the U.S. for Alberta Tourism is 1-800-661-8888.  I
don't know if there is a separate one for Edmonton or not.

I'd be more than happy to answer any questions I can for you if you
want to email me directly.  You will not need passports -- but they
are handy for ID at the border.  A birth certificate and driver's
license is usually enough.  What part of Alberta will you be in?

Cheers!

Anne

Newsgroups: rec.travel
From: haggar@crchh432.BNR.CA (Haggar Alsaleh)
Subject: STAND BY TRAVEL.
Reply-To: haggar@crchh432.BNR.CA (Haggar Alsaleh)
Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd.
Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1992 20:23:25 GMT


Could someone tell me which Airlines in the states that will
allow buying stand by tickets or go before the	flight and	
get abord as stand by for destination from and inside the
US of A. I have called most airlines here in DALLAS trying
to fly to Ft Lauterdale, but all of them says no stand by
allowed.


Thanx	
Haggar@bnr.ca
Newsgroups: rec.travel,soc.culture.canada
From: fletch@camelot.bradley.edu (Alan Lurie)
Subject: Sweden!!!
Organization: Bradley University
Date:  5 Nov 92 18:13:48 GMT


	Hello.  I need some help.  My mother is going to Sweden in two
weeks and I would like to give her some helpful tips and info for her
vacation.  Can anyone help me out?  Things to do/not to do, things she
shouldn't miss, things she could do without, etc.?  Thanx in advance.

--

______________________________________________________________________________
fletch@camelot.bradley.edu ---- Alan S. Lurie, Esq. ---- God save Her Majesty!
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                 "Ceilings.  Nothing more than ceilings..."
					-- "Howling Mad" Murdock, THE A-TEAM
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: ar097@mesrx.UUCP (anand ramamurthy)
Newsgroups: rec.travel
Subject: Packged Tours in LA
Date: 11 Nov 92 19:19:59 GMT
Distribution: ca
Organization: Measurex Inc. Cupertino, Ca

Are there any packged tours available from San Fransisco to Los Angles?
Preferably 2-3 days during the week end.

I am also interested in knowing about packeged tours with in LA itself.
I will make my own arrangements for transportation from SF to LA.


Thanks in advance

Anand R


-- 
Anand Ramamurthy
mesrx!ar097
----------------------------------------------------
Opinions expressed here are mine and not of Measurex
From: v068mwnn@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Election Day 1992: We FINALLY had the COURAGE to CHANGE!)
Newsgroups: rec.travel
Subject: COME VISIT THE USA...
Date: 6 Nov 92 00:11:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

Come visit the USA!  Now that we have finally liberated ourselves and are
FREE (YIPPEEEEEEEEEE), we welcome ALL visitors, regardless of whether they 
invest here or not.

Why not start in our newest tourist attraction: The State House in Little
Rock, Arkansas?!?!

Ciao!
Newsgroups: rec.travel
From: engp2055@nusunix1.nus.sg (VINOD UDHARAM VASNANI)
Subject: Info request: Hotel and Motel Association of USA
Organization: National University of Singapore
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 01:48:42 GMT


A good friend of mine, who has no access to the net, will appreciate
any information on the Hotel and Motel Association of U.S.A on any of the
following points:

i) Its history
ii) Who are the key personnel?  
iii) When it was founded?
iv) Its role in the hospitality industry?

Will appreciate any pointers, comments etc. 

Thanks in advance



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Vasnani Vinod U

email: engp2055@nusunix1.nus.sg (internet)
     : engp2055@nusvm.bitnet  (bitnet)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: jahn@guinness.Idbsu.EDU (Greg Jahn)
Subject: Re: No More Write-Ups?
Reply-To: jahn@guinness.idbsu.edu
Organization: BSU - Data Center
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 18:53:04 GMT

In article <1992Nov11.010655.21047@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>,
 gjh@galen.med.Virginia.EDU (Galen J. Hekhuis) writes:
|>In article <TIMSC.92Nov10162112@aspen.cfsat.Honeywell.COM>
|>timsc@hwcae.honeywell.com writes:
|>
|>}you can always rap with a meunter(sp?) hitch IF you have to!
|>}a krab brake would twist the rope less though
|>
|>What's a "krab"?  Is it something related to coastal climbing?

Ahhhhhh, krab = carabiner.

Reminds me of how I found out the meaning of krab.  I was sitting 
around a campfire in Yosemite Valley with a group of those "*@*.uk"
people.  They mentioned that one time they ended up getting a late
start on a climb because they had to go over to a friend's house
because "his wife had the crabs" ... man, I was really confused for
a while there ... :)

--
Greg Jahn Boise State Univ.|>>>>>>>Official Disclaimer <<<<<<<<<<<<
/ jahn@guinness.idbsu.edu /|" Only the names here are fictitious.
/ dosjahn@idbsu.bitnet    /|  The story, unfortunately, is
/ (208)385-3891.thephone  /|  absolutely true. " - Joseph Brodesky
From: jthoj@lhdsy2.lahabra.chevron.com (Chris J. Thompson)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: RE: Altimeters - 8000m+  mechanical vs. digital vs. GPS
Date: 10 Nov 92 16:38:09 GMT

I noted with interest the discussion of altimeters.
I have a Thommen which is rated to 6000m. I've never been
able to find out what happens to it *above* 6000m (having
come close to but not exceeding that elevation). 
Does anybody know about the accuracy above the spec elevation?
Presumably the accuracy is reduced, but dramatically so? 

I'm really pleased with the instrument. Extremely accurate, reliable
easy to use. Watch altimeters are available now for a lot less $$$
but it's still reassuring to have a fine mechanical instrument
in the mountains when the weather goes bad.

Chris Thompson
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: timsc@hwcae.Honeywell.COM (Tim Schneider)
Subject: Re: No More Write-Ups?
Reply-To: timsc@hwcae.honeywell.com
Organization: Honeywell, Air Transport Division; Phoenix, AZ
	<1992Nov10.223146.1809@ncar.ucar.edu>
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 22:21:12 GMT


you can always rap with a meunter(sp?) hitch IF you have to!
a krab brake would twist the rope less though

--
            tim schneider

    timsc@hwcae.honeywell.com  OR
  uunet!asuvax!hwcae.honeywell.com!timsc
           (602) 436-3078
From: allen%asylum.cs.utah.edu@cs.utah.edu (Allen Sanderson)
Subject: Re: Favorite Kor quote was Re: No More Wright-Ups?
Date: 11 Nov 92 10:54:41 MST
Organization: University of Utah CS Dept
Distribution: usa

kjl@iscnvx.lmsc.lockheed.com (K J Leiden) writes:

>My favorite is Kor saying "Don't fall now or we'll both go!" 
>to numerous partners throughout the '60s.  
>
>I love yelling this one to my second anytime my belay is marginal.

Last year while bivying during a storm, high on the north side of the
Grand Teton I woke up my partner and told him we were going to die and
promptly fell back sleep (he was awake the rest of the night listening
to the wind and watching the tent being blow slide ways). 

With parnters like us who needs crumbly rock or bad pro.

Cheers,

Allen R. Sanderson

Salt Lake City, Oootah


"Great spirits have always encounter violent opposition from
mediocre minds."
	- Albert Einstein
Newsgroups: rec.climbing