HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Freedom of Religion as well as everything else
Date: 25 Aug 92 18:28:33 GMT
Reply-To: jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin)
Followup-To: talk.politics.guns
Organization: COMANDOS Project, Glesga Yoonie

c1741@moncol.monmouth.edu (MICHAEL CARSON) wrote:
>> Can you think of any place better?. I cant think of anywhere
> I was thinking of Switzerland, myself.  I haven't looked into their
> immigration laws

Swiss immigration laws basically say you're welcome if you're rich, white
and Christian and you can fuck off and die otherwise.  Much like the rest
of the First World only a good bit more explicit about it.  They have a
system of workers commuting over the border like the Arab "guest workers"
of Israel; the Swiss system adds the extra refinement of keeping them in
curfewed dormitory accommodation - in effect, slave camps.  Most of the
people in these are single men from Turkey and Morocco.  I suggest seeing
the horrifying Turkish film "Umud'a Yolculuk" (English version titled
"Journey of Hope") for what their immigration policy can mean in human
terms.


> but I LIKE the thought of all adult males being in the military, and keeping
> their weapons at home [...]

Sounds like you'd find Somalia a paradise on earth.


> Kinda makes the population hard to control, dunnit?

Like the US, thought control in Switzerland is at a degree of intensity far
ahead of most developed countries.  Bigoted Christianity is what makes the
populations of both countries into sheep.  A sheep with a gun is no threat
to the state; and brainwashed, bigoted, mean-spirited sheep with guns are
exactly who do most of the controlling, everywhere.

-- 
--  Jack Campin    room G092, Computing Science Department, Glasgow University,
17 Lilybank Gardens, Glasgow G12 8RZ, Scotland   TEL: 041 339 8855 x6854 (work)
INTERNET: jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk or via nsfnet-relay.ac.uk    FAX: 041 330 4913
BANG!net: via mcsun and uknet     BITNET: via UKACRL    UUCP: jack@glasgow.uucp
From: system@korova.uucp (razorback)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: HEAVEN
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 92 00:43:34 CDT
Organization: VHF void tube of the mind (713) 492-2783

popec@fennec.sccsi.com (William C. Barwell) writes:

> ..If you were to die today and God asked you, "why should i let you into 
> Heavan?", what would you say?
> .......
> A dialogue between a dead xian and God, (Jehova-1, Supreme Space Alien)
> .......................................................................
> God:  Why should I let you into Heaven?
> Xian:  Because I have lived a good Xian life...
> God: Stop!  Why should living a good Xian life let you into Heaven?
> Xian:  I thot.. I.. Believed the Bible...
> God:  Stop!  What do you mean you belived the bible?
> Xian:  I read and I believd the word of you, my Lord..
> God: Stop!  It was not my word!  I did not write that!  Nor did I have 
>   anything to do with the Koran or any other book that men claimed I 
>   wrote or inspired.  Did you REALLY read it?
> Xian:  Yes, i was taught the Bible ever since I was very young and I 
>     believed.....
> God: Stop!  You believed?  Didn't you think!  Did you never notice for in
>   stance that there were two stories in Genesis about the Creation that 
>   were mutually contrtadictory and therefor proved it a falsehood?  
>   Did you not notice the many contradictions in the 4 gospels that proved
>   that these books were not written by eyewitnesses or by people that 
>   even had any knowledge of what they were talking about?
> Xian:  I... I...
> God:  Stop!  I gave you a brain!  A magnificent brain, the best I could 
>    give you!  And you didn't even use it!  You played games with it?
>    Silly religous books full of lies and you did not even try to see thru 
>    the lies even when they were very obvious!  You through logic out of
>     your brain and played foolish games with words.  You could even prove 
>    that black was white with your silly little games!  You insulted me
>    The Lord God by not using your wonderful brain to it's fullest!
>    You are no better than one of the animals who also do not think much!
>    Depart!  Only those who use their minds are fit company for the Gods!


you know, some people say that the saftey of animals depends upon the 
fact that every sense is utilitarian. why, then, were we blessed with 
imagination that gave us everything we have now, including religion and 
such?

that is the only thing that i have found different between us and 
animals. we are willing to believe in something we are not really even 
sure is there. you cant prove it with mathematical computation or your 
senses, so how do we know? because we know?

how do some people believe somethings but deny there are contridictions 
so obviously staring them in the face? to simplify it, how can people 
choose to believe the intangible over the tangible?

common sense is what tells you the sun revolves around the earth...

squid

--
              VHF void tube of the mind (713) 492-2783
        "where you can find the Zeta Greys SAFEWAYING themselves
                into the WONDERBREAD *heart* of America!"
From: altheimm@nextnet.csus.edu (Murray Altheim)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: free lionfood! (was: Celtic Cross)
Date: 4 Sep 92 00:50:46 GMT
Organization: California State University Sacramento

In article <3SEP199218033617@rosie.uh.edu> lib1p@rosie.uh.edu (Tammy Stark Blandino) writes:

[a discussion of the origins of Christian symbolism...]       
>In the early days of Xtianity there was no organization, no symbols,
>nothing.  There were many groups calling themselves Xtian.  The
>Xtianity that we know today is simply the group that won out.

[much deleted...]

>Anybody else with xtra to add please do.
>
>Tammy

To add to your reading list, I enjoyed "Pagans and Christians" by Robin
Lane Fox.  The book describes how the Christian church was able to 
overcome the rule of the Roman Empire and become the predominant political
and religious body in Europe, all within several generations.

Interesting reading from a reputable source.

Blessiti pro tuo. (My Latin teach would role over in her grave... :P )

Murray

-- 
Murray M. Altheim      "Ils ont l'orteil de Bouc, & d'un Chevreil l'oreille,
Instructional Consultant    La corne d'un Chamois, & la face vermeille
CSU, Sacramento          Comme un rouge Croissant: & dancent toute nuict
altheimm@csus.edu       Dedans un carrefour, ou pres d'une eau qui bruict."
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: pharvey@quack.sac.ca.us (Paul Harvey)
Subject: Re: some favorite Bible verses... (attention: Chris Colvin)
Organization: The Duck Pond public unix: +1 408 249 9630, log in as 'guest'.
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 06:12:06 GMT

In article <R20DqB2w165w@drc.UUCP> alizard@drc.UUCP (alizard) writes:
>FAVORITE BIBLE VERSES (all quotes from KJV):

I think you forgot the smoking gun of Christianity, Luke 14:26. Maybe
that's being too nasty. It pretty much explains most of Christian
history though.
From: brent@syacus.acus.oz.au (Brent Davies)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: info wanted on runes
Date: 26 Aug 92 23:19:52 GMT
Organization: Australian Centre for Unisys Software, Melbourne

radzy@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU (T. O. Radzykewycz) writes:


>Can anyone post the names of the Anglo-Saxon runes, or perhaps a source
>for the Anglo-Saxon version of the rune-poem?

Yes, I can, Radzy... I've got a wonderful book on runes at home, with
rune-names for all the futharks and -thorks.  I'll bring it in tomorrow
and post the A-S rune names.

Wunjo!
Brent
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: alto@pegasus.com (Andrea Ostensoe)
Subject: Wishing Well in Dallas
Organization: Pegasus,  Honolulu
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 07:19:29 GMT

Just a shot in the dark..but I'm looking for anyone who remembers
or was part of the Wishing Well group in Dallas back in the 70's
I lost contact with my "teacher" and I would really like to get
in touch with her.  The last I heard she was moving to Colorado.

:wq

-- 
**************************************************************************
"I don't ask for much..just your heart on a silver platter;-)"
						-Kali
**************************************************************************
From: amanda@INTERCON.COM (Amanda Walker)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Scott Mayo no longer on Net
Date: 26 Aug 92 03:07:06 GMT

In article <1992Aug26.011037.26871@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com>, 
billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson) writes:
> Hm. Was he that much of a basher or did he just sincerely believe
> that people who hold pagan beliefs are wrong.

Well, I'm one of the people that ended up arguing with him a lot (at least at 
first), and I eventually came to the latter view.  I may think he's a little 
misguided (about Christianity as much as paganism :)), but he seems generally 
sincere, and though he makes no bones about his position, he doesn't try to 
flame dissenters into a toasty crisp.  As Usenet posters go, this only gets 
up to "occasionally annoying" on my scale, which is doing pretty well...

> Why do so many pagans feel that they have the "one true way"?

Because pagans are people just like anyone else.


Amanda Walker
-- 
Quod fuit est sicut quod erit, et quod erit est sicut quod fuit,
ad perpetranda miracula aeternitatis.
Organization: University of Maine System
Date: Saturday, 29 Aug 1992 15:50:11 EDT
From: <IO20402@MAINE.MAINE.EDU>
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: ON Paganism in Maine...Are you there?

I've been in Maine for a few months now, at the wonderful University of Maine.
Anyway, I'm Scottish, and I would love to know if there are any followers
of the old religion here close to the university who might be able to help me
learn. I know very little about paganism and Wiccans, but I have decided that
this will be one thing I will accomplish this year.
On the whole though, I would just love to talk to people who think and act like
I do...
      All my wishes et Tak Car,
                 Kerry
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: Albert-Lunde@nwu.edu (Albert Lunde)
Subject: Re: Fundies: expensive
Followup-To: alt.pagan
Originator: lunde@casbah.acns.nwu.edu
Reply-To: Albert-Lunde@nwu.edu (Albert Lunde)
Organization: Ministry of Silly Walks
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 15:19:35 GMT

In article <6eoBqB1w165w@fennec.sccsi.com> popec@fennec.sccsi.com 
(William C. Barwell) writes:
>  Seriously, I think it is time for a new movement.  An 
>anti-fundamentalist, anti-ultra-conservative evangelical movement.
>  What is needed is amovement to make Higher Bible Criticism a household
>word.  For those who do not know what that is ecaxtly, it simply means 
>reading the bible and noticing it's conradictions and errors and then 
>using one's brains to think about what these mean.[...]

A fairly good popular book on related themes is "Rescuing the Bible
from Fundamentalism: A Bishop Rethinks the Meaning of Scripture".
It makes a good case against biblical literalism.

Though I doubt this will catch on like wildfire.  Students at conservative
christian seminaries have been cautioned against taking courses at
liberal seminaries so as to not corrupt their faith.  The gap between
modern scholarship and conservative dogma is growing every year in
many denominations, and the fundamentalists are aware of this though
they deny it with double-think. This may be one reason they feel under
seige, though *they* are assaulting the rights of others -- maintaining
their faith requires tight control of information and/or massive denial
of other's experiences.

-- 
 Albert Lunde         | Interfaith  |     *Y*Y*      "A branch on the
 Albert-Lunde@nwu.edu |  Bisexual   |      *Y*        tree of life"
 alunde@nuacvm.bitnet |  Feminist   |.......|.........................
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: brock@camis.Stanford.EDU (Kevin Brock)
Subject: Robin Hood (TV)
Organization: Knowledge Systems Laboratory, Stanford University
Distribution: ba
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 00:02:14 GMT

During a thread on pagan themes in media some time ago, someone mentioned 
the British TV series Robin Hood.  The show interprets the Robin Hood
legends as a rebellion of the Saxons against the Norman invaders, and the 
main character is the son (chosen one) of Herne the Hunter.If you're in the 
SF Bay area the series is being shown on KTEH (ch54) on Tuesday nights and 
Sunday afternoons.  The first episodes were shown last night, and will probably 
be repeated on Sunday.  

The show appears to deal mainly with political aspects of the Pagan/Christian
conflicts, although several times the conflict is referred to as one of
light against darkness... and there *is* an evil magician (Christian
satanist).

One nice thing about the show is that it doesn't portray people
as evil solely on the basis of their religion.  It's a nice change 
from some of the one sided portrayals of Pagans *and* Christians 
that I've run across in various books.

I like it, but I'm biased in favor of British drama on TV anyway :-)  

--
Kevin Brock
brock@camis.stanford.edu
From: system@korova.uucp (razorback)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Can Someone help?
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 92 19:49:13 CDT
Organization: VHF void tube of the mind (713) 492-2783

arciordi@nyx.cs.du.edu (Andy Ciordia) writes:

> 
> I have asked earlier, for information on learing the Techniques of
> magik/teachings of all sorts of pagan kinds, yet I recieved no response.. 
> I am living in Charlotte North Carolina, does anyone know anything on
> someone I could contatct to help me with this?  I take all suggestions and
> questions openly.. So pleases respond..

i would suggest reading...read, read, read!

then go and experiment with the ideas presented...get a good grasp on 
everything at first, and then zero in on things that catch your 
eye...anything by joeseph campbell is good for starters, or lynn V. 
andrews...particularly carlos castaneta...(sorry, i mispelled more than 
half of those)

btw, what, particularly are you interested in?

squid

--
              VHF void tube of the mind (713) 492-2783
        "where you can find the Zeta Greys SAFEWAYING themselves
                into the WONDERBREAD *heart* of America!"
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: lib1p@rosie.uh.edu (Tammy Stark Blandino)
Subject: Re: Gardenarian and Alexandrian Wicca
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: University of Houston
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 12:08:00 GMT

In article <1992Sep3.145829.1@woods.ulowell.edu>, cerconeg@woods.ulowell.edu writes...
>I wonder if someone could help me find a couple of books.
> 
>I am looking to find the differences between Gardenarian and Alexandrian
>Wicca.  A friend of mine told me that I would have to get a book on each and do
>the comparisons myself.  I was just wondering if anyone knew of such a book?
> 
>It would be greatly appreciated, and as always- thanks in advance.
> 
> 
>---
>CERCONEG@ULOWELL.WOODS.EDU  George (Thumper) Cercone
> 
>Conservatism is a state of mind- It can be cured.

Stewart Farrar originally became a Wiccan under the Alexandian
system.  He is now a Gardenerian.  In the reprint of his book
_What witches do_ he spends some time discussing the two in
preface and in notes to the original text.

I don't really know of books which discuss the difference.

Tammy
From: alizard@drc.uucp (A.Lizard)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: re: Religious Bulletin Board lists...
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 92 01:53:44 PDT
Organization: Sound Blaster Systems, Concord CA

Grendel, you really should have posted the name of the magazine.
A lot of us are in technical / computer related professions, the
pagan community has a pretty fair amount of buying power as far
as computers goes. Some of us are in a position to choose what
periodicals to advertise our businesses in. 

If several advertisers wrote the publisher of that magazine,
citing your post as the reason that they will be taking their
business elsewhere, and if readers write to cancel their
subscription, that Xtian fundie will have to find someplace else
to work.

Bright Blessings... A.Lizard
From: markbr@radian.UUCP (Mark Roth)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Scott Mayo & the net
Date: 28 Aug 92 23:34:38 GMT


 About the thread concerning Scott's loosing his net access:
 
 Eshin-Fun - grow up.
 
 For all the rest, it wasn't any net Gods, it was Bush's economy. Don't some
 of y'all read/listen to the news, or read who *writes* these posts? Scott's
 news path was Wang.com; Wang, a major computer manufacturer (for the info
 of the oblivious), just went belly-up (Chapter 11, I think). Lots of others
 (several thousand) are now out of work, as well as short access.
 
 In addition, Scott did, at least, seem to have some idea of courtesy &
 argument. I, too, wish he & others like him would go away, but at least
 *some* of his posts were reasonable, unlike, for those of you who were
 here last year, Charley pain-in-the-ass Wingate.
 
 (For the generalization-impaired, I take it as given that people like Amanda
 do *NOT* fit into the category in the paragraph above.)
 
 	mark
 -- 
 /*___________________________________________________________________________*
  *  1.     How *DARE* you attribute these opinions to anyone else!           *
  *  2.     Would *you* claim opinions like these if they *weren't your own?  *
  *___________________________________________________________________________*/
From: amanda@INTERCON.COM (Amanda Walker)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: some favorite Bible verses
Date: 3 Sep 92 07:51:01 GMT

In article <fR31MXN@quack.sac.ca.us>, pharvey@quack.sac.ca.us (Paul Harvey) 
writes:
> I find Luke 14:26 to be entirely in context, perhaps not quite what some
> salespeople present.

[For the benefit of those who aren't familiar with the Christian scriptures, 
the passage in question refers to breaking family and social ties]

Would you argue with it if it were phrased "You must be willing to give up 
your links to your past, and your current conceptions of both who you are and 
your relationship to the rest of the world, in order to continue to learn, 
grow, and fulfill your potential?"

I wouldn't...

> If you keep in mind that Yahweh is a warrior God
> and Christianity represents a combination of Judaism, Greco/Roman and
> Persian mythologies, it all fits nicely.

Christianity is indeed all of these things.  Luckily, it's not *just* all of 
them :)...


Peace,

Amanda Walker
-- 
"Christianity quite possibly embraces far greater and more universal truths
 than are generally accepted and taught in its various churches."
                --Katherine Kurtz and Deborah Turner Harris, _The_Adept_

Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: mimir@milton.u.washington.edu (Al Billings)
Subject: Re: Wicca (was Re: Pat Robertson)
Organization: The Friends of Loki Society
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 00:12:35 GMT

In article <Bu0xyJ.C52@news.cso.uiuc.edu> ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe) writes:
>mimir@milton.u.washington.edu (Al Billings) writes:
>
>> For example, the Celts didn't use four quarters or have tools associated
>>with them. The Celts were polytheists, not duo-theists.
>
>Well, the elements you mention here are part of the Hermetic inheritance.  The
>folk inheritance is at least as much Celtic as English.  The original four
>Sabbats are the Celtic ones.  (Gardner added the equinoxes and solstices later.)
>Also, many Witches are drawing on Celtic myth and folklore to flesh out the
>Craft.  There are also Witches who draw on other cultures, but they usually
>draw on many cultures rather than focussing on just one.  The basic cosmology
>is derived from Celtic culture, though through such filters as Graves.  The
>duo-theism is not historically accurate, but the various figures used to create
>the Wiccan Lady and Lord were mostly Celtic.  What English folk elements are
>you pointing at?  Herne?  The Green Man?  They exist in English folk-lore, but
>there is clear evidence that they are Celtic in origin.

 Are they Celtic or are they Germanic through the Jutes, Saxons, etc? I
have never heard anyone say or read it anywhere. I think the main
difference is the Hermetic inheritance and the use of a duo-theistic
structure (one Lord and one Lady) instead of the Celtic (or Germanic for
that matter) Polytheistic structure. That is one of the reasons why groups
like the ADF don't consider themselves Wiccan at all.

Wassail,
Grendel

                           mimir@u.washington.edu
    /\  /\       +----------------------------------------+
   /__\/__\      | "I know that I hung on the windy tree  |          |
  /\  /\  /\     |  all of nights nine, wounded by Gar,   |          |
 /__\/__\/__\    |   given to Odhinn, myself to myself,   |          |
    /\  /\       | upon that tree of which none can tell  |          |
   /__\/__\      |      from what root it rises."         |    ______|______
                 +----------------------------------------+

Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: J024330@LMSC5.IS.LMSC.LOCKHEED.COM
Subject: You could get sued!
Organization: Lockheed Missiles & Space Company, Inc.
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 92 14:47:47 GMT

A lot of feelings were stirred up as a result of Chris Colvin's posting
three weeks ago.  Mr. Colvin has posted follow ups apologizing to anyone
who was inconvenienced, yet some folks continue to incite others to "load
his Compuserve mailbox so he has to PAY."

In legal terms, these folks are inciting others to inflict financial injury
on this individual.  The folks who encourage this action could find them-
selves as well as the system owners on the other end of a law suit.  "Heck,
no jury in the world will award him any money," you say?  Perhaps not, but
are you in a position to afford an attorney to defend yourself?  What kind
of precident could this set if he were successful?

Most of us remember Jim Bakker of PTL fame.  He was found guilty of wire
fraud.  Why?  He solicited funds over telephone lines as well as the air
waves.  These media are regulated by the FCC.  How do you think these
networked computers communicate?  Telephone wire and microwave links, to
name just two.  Once your message gets on a public utility, it falls under
FCC jurisdiction.  Now, nothing may happen to you if he should happen to
press charges, but are you willing to take that chance?  How would your
news provider feel about getting involved in this type of activity?

It's one thing to flame this individual, it's another to try and cause
financial injury so be careful about what you say.  Now, here's how Compu-
serve works.  If he hasn't done so already, Colvin can set up his account
to reject ALL postage due mail, which means, you'll go through the gyrations
of writing, or assembling large files for nothing, or he could choose
to delete your message without even reading it, incurring no cost, and you
would never know if he got it or not.

No response to this post is necessary or encouraged.  Let this thread die
a natural death, as well as Colvin's thread.