HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: al@qiclab.scn.rain.com (Alan Peterman)
Subject: Re: Measure 9 Voter's Pamphlet Argument
Organization: SCN Research/Qic Laboratories of Tigard, Oregon.
Distribution: or
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1992 17:15:07 GMT

The "Special Righteousness Committee" arguement is a blast!  It's GOT
to be a joke.  After all, anyone who wants to pay $300 can get anything
they wish to write into the pamphlet.  This is TOO silly to be real.

Of course I could be wrong, and it could be the true beliefs of a real
group of people - but they'd be too stupid to address the letter to send
it to the Secretary of State..

-- 
Alan L. Peterman                                 (503)-684-1984 hm & work
                       al@qiclab.scn.rain.com
It's odd how as I get older, the days are longer, but the years are shorter!
From: johnl@pcx.ncd.com (John Light)
Newsgroups: or.general
Subject: Re: Measure 9 Voter's Pamphlet Argument
Date: 12 Oct 92 23:57:29 GMT
Article-I.D.: pcx.1992Oct12.235729.8279
Distribution: or
Organization: Graphic Software Systems, Beaverton, OR

In article <12708@sail.LABS.TEK.COM> charlesw@sail.LABS.TEK.COM (Charles Wilson) writes:
>In article <1992Oct10.024506.21962@wiskit.rain.com> herbw@wiskit.rain.com (Herb Weiner) writes:
>>I urge anyone who has not yet decided how to vote on measure 9
>>to read the ARGUMENT IN FAVOR furnished by M. Dennis Moore
>
>I have read this argument.  So what's your point?  It is obviously a
>fictitious organization.  An obviously fictitious argument.  It does
>not do much to _help_ the No on 9 effort.  A bit embarrassing, I'd
>say.

Embarrassing to whom?  The two main arguments in favor of Prop 9 are:

* It will protect you from the hoards of drag queens who are ready to 
  descend on your neighborhood to enforce sexual orientation quotas,

  and

* Homosexuality is sin (as shown by the passages from Leviticus), so we
  must make a moral stand to prevent the further erosion of societal values.

The "obviously fictitious argument" is strikingly similar to the latter.
(Too bad nobody wrote an argument to mock the former theme, which seems to
be the point of the OCA video.)

I believe the mentioned ARGUMENT IN FAVOR is embarrassing to the OCA.
I'm not sure it was the best use of M. Dennis Moore's money, but I certainly
appreciate the irony.

John Light
From: sharvy@reed.edu (V Headshape)
Newsgroups: or.general
Subject: Re: Measure 9 Voter's Pamphlet Argument
Date: 13 Oct 92 18:49:07 GMT
Article-I.D.: reed.1992Oct13.184907.16395
Organization: Reed College, Portland, Oregon

In article <12711@sail.LABS.TEK.COM> charlesw@sail.LABS.TEK.COM (Charles Wilson) writes:
>In article <1992Oct12.193655.9785@reed.edu> sharvy@reed.edu (V Headshape) writes:

>>So, Family Value #2: incest is OK in some cases, e.g., if it results
>
>I didn't read in this passage anything about family values or that
>any of this activity was approved by God.  In fact a great deal
>of what is in the Bible is activity that God does NOT approve of.  Why
>do you think the Isrealites where in captivity in Egypt and then 
>in the desert for 40 years?  Did you ever see the classic film "The
>10 Commandments?"  It didn't look to me like God was happy with those
>Bible folks.
>
>The only person worth emulating in the Bible is Jesus.  The rest of
>them were a pretty sorry lot.  Any different than today?
>

The actions I described are condoned in the Bible -- they go
unpunished and are considered proper in Biblical culture.
Offering your daughters for sex to people (especially honored guests)
was common, and occurs in other Biblical passages.  In fact there is
another story where an unfaithful concubine is offered to a mob for
sex, and the mob rapes and abuses her all night, finally killing her; only
because the people killed his "wife" does the Levite (the "owner" of the
woman and a good Jew) attempt retribution -- they were expected to
have sex with her.  The act of Lot's daughters
in "preserving the seed" of their father was clearly proper & dutiful
according to the Bible:the result was two sons who founded the Moab
and Ammon, long-lived and righteous Hebraic tribes.  Generally, the
Bible will accept any act as proper, no matter how degrading or
sexist, if it preserves thy father's seed. (Of course, gay sons could
threaten to end the family line....)

-- 
Liberate the Weirdoes and You Liberate the Squares
From: guyc@strl.labs.tek.com (Guy Cherry)
Newsgroups: or.general
Subject: NW Skiing
Date: 15 Oct 92 23:20:20 GMT
Article-I.D.: crl.4840
Organization: STRL, Tektronix, Inc.

I just decided - a little late - that it would be nice to take a family skiing
vacation between Christmas and New Years.  Unfortunately the Mt. Bachelor area is
fully booked by this time of year for that week.  Can anyone recommend anything else?
How about in NE Oregon?, Idaho?, Wash?.  Something really worth driving to (like Bachelor)
and with some nice accomodations?  Thanks for any ideas.

--Guy Cherry

--------
UUCP:	    ...!tektronix!crl.labs!guyc
Email:	    guyc@crl.labs.tek.com
US Mail:    Guy Cherry, Computer Research Lab, Tektronix, Inc.  
                Box 500  MS 50-662, Beaverton OR 97077
Phone:	    503-627-1123
Xref: sparky or.general:621 pdx.general:1231
From: hall@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Hal F Lillywhite)
Newsgroups: or.general,pdx.general
Subject: Re: Measure 9 Voter's Pamphlet Argument
Date: 13 Oct 92 15:27:58 GMT
Article-I.D.: vice.10533
Followup-To: or.general
Organization: Tektronix Inc., Beaverton, Or.

In article <1992Oct12.193655.9785@reed.edu> sharvy@reed.edu (V Headshape) writes:

>The story of Soddom & Gomorrah, oft cited by crusaders as proof that
>God disapproves of homosexuality, suggests some additional, not oft
>cited, Biblical values.

Well, if said crusaders actually use this as proof that
homosexuality is sinful their thinking is as slipshod as your
rebutal.  The incident mentioned is not just homosexuality but
attempted homosexual rape.  Paul's statements in the New Testament
are far more specific about homosexual activities than is this.

>After God decides to wipe out Soddom & Gomorrah, he sends two
>angel-messengers to Soddom, to warn Lot so he can escape.

Actualy this seems more to be a couple of "undercover investigators"
sent to see if the sin of the cities is really as bad as God thinks
it is (see Gen 18:20-22).  The rescue of Lot seems to be almost an
afterthought.

>Lot is a good-guy (related to Abraham, I think, who God likes).  

Well, yes.  However your next step is hardly valid.  Just because he
is related to Abraham hardly makes everything he does right.  Only
the most fanatic religionist would claim that!

[Stuff deleted about how Lot offers his daughters to the men of the
city and how later his daughters get him drunk in order to become
pregnant by him.]

So Lot offered his daughters.  So what?  That indicates a gross error 
(to say the least) on his part.  However nothing in this account 
indicates that he was right in doing so.  This is a simple account of 
what happened, not a statement of what is right and wrong.

His daughters sleeping with him?  Again an account of what happened,
hardly a statement of approval (especially in view of the later
trouble between Israel and the offspring of those daughters).  In
fact Lot apparently would not have approved of this.  Otherwise they 
would not have had to get him drunk to do it.

I think your argument illustrates the silly arguments we are seeing
about Measure 9, on both sides.  I've seen precious little reason in
the arguments.  I urge people to read the actual measure and pay
attention to what it says, not what either proponents or opponents
claim it says.  I think I have never before seen so much drivel and
misinformation about an issue as this thing is generating.
From: leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Newsgroups: or.general
Subject: Re: Measure 9 Voter's Pamphlet Argument
Date: 14 Oct 92 06:35:41 GMT
Article-I.D.: qiclab.1992Oct14.063541.16007
Reply-To: 70465.203@compuserve.com
Distribution: or
Organization: SCN Research/Qic Laboratories of Tigard, Oregon.

paulh@tekcae.cax.tek.com (Paul Hammer) writes:

>[satirical argument in favor of 9 delete]

>>> This must be some kind of joke...

>>
>>     Perhaps this argument should have been included in the section for
>>    "Arguments in Opposition."
>>

>This form of joke is called "satire" and is sometimes far too
>serious to be funny.

>Filling the arguments-in-favor with such dissertations is
>a very clever but not original method of persuasion.

Apparently some of the *pro* 9 folks talked the local Nazi party and KKK
folks out of submitting arguments in favor this time. 

But you can *still* hear the KKK's views. Call 503-321-5117 and you'll be
connected to the voice mail number for the KKK/Populist presidential 
candidate. The are *quite* definitely in favor of 9. And the arguments
ought to convince you... :-(


-- 
Leonard Erickson		      leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com
CIS: [70465,203]			 70465.203@compuserve.com
FIDO:   1:105/51	 Leonard.Erickson@f51.n105.z1.fidonet.org
(The CIS & Fido addresses are preferred)
From: mikep@sequent.com (Michael A. Prescott)
Newsgroups: or.general
Subject: Get into the act and vote!
Summary: You can't vote if you don't register...
Date: 12 Oct 92 23:37:47 GMT
Article-I.D.: sequent.1992Oct12.233747.22177
Followup-To: or.general
Distribution: or
Organization: Sequent Computer Systems Inc.

Well, the deadline to register to vote is upon us, like tomorrow.
This election has issues that affect us all, and potentially could
decide whether or not we choose to take a giant step backwards.

You *can* make a difference.  But first you need to register to 
vote before you can use your vote.  There are lots of places to
register here in Oregon: the DMV, County registrars' offices, and
of all places, you can pick up registration cards at McDonalds!

The statistics apparently say (was that wimpy enough?) that the
most underregistered age group is under 34.  Is that you?

Mike Prescott
"Straight but not narrow.  Vote no on 9!"
-- 
Mike Prescott                                           mikep@sequent.com
Distributed Computing Services                             (503) 578-3059
From: bieley@Reed.Edu (B. Jonathan Bieley)
Newsgroups: or.general
Subject: NeXT User Group Meeting
Date: 15 Oct 92 04:58:18 GMT
Article-I.D.: reed.1992Oct15.045818.6516
Organization: Reed College, Portland, OR

Hi all,
	The meeting is:
	
	October 22nd	October 22nd	October 22nd	October 22nd
	
	Thursday, at 6:30 PM, at Reed College, in the Vollum College  
Center. Please note the date. (Please feel free to forward this on, and to  
send me other addresses for people to include them in my mailings. Thanks)
	
Agenda:
	- NeXTStep 3.0: overview of changes for users.
	- Cub'X: the premier X-Windows package for NeXT, being
		 demonstrated by Interactive Technologies, the
		 NorthAmerican distributor of Cub'X and the new
		 Portland NeXT reseller (yes, a NeXT reseller in 
		 Portland).
	- ElectroFile: a top of the line document management product 
		with an very competitive price. We will be seeing the 
		brand new version 2.0 to this very popular product. 
		Insigght Software is a local Portland firm and will 
		be showing all of the features of ElectroFile, 
		including scanning at 20+ pages per min and OCR using 
		the Xerox ScanWorks technology. Trust me, this is a 
		totally cool product and is quite affordable.
	- Executor: the Macintosh emulator. We will be showing 
		Microsoft Word and Excel. We will also be looking at 
		how well Executor plays in the NeXT environment, 
		especially file compatibility. This is an important 
		product and it has been well recieved.
		
	Please come out to this meeting. Much has occured in the NeXT  
market since the last meeting, some time ago. NeXT has release NeXTStep  
3.0 with user interface modifications, more use of color, an improved from  
the ground up Interface Builder (more way cool than ever), added 3-D  
rendering into the operating system and more. Also the first NeXTWorld  
Expo was held, and event that drew many quiet developers out into the  
open. There has been a massive explosion of apps for the NeXT and we will  
have NeXT third party catalogs on hand. Also, NeXT has shipped the first  
ever Object Catalog detailing the Objective C objects that are available,  
both commercialy and for free. This is a major step and is very tangible  
proof of NeXT's object-oriented approach to both operating system and user  
application design. This object catalog puts NeXT years ahead of  
PowerOpen, Solaris, or Windows NT. Come see why the industry is following  
NeXT.
	Portland now has a NeXT reseller, located in Beaverton. They are  
great team of guys with very extensive backgrounds in computer sales,  
integration, custom software design, and mainframes. Honest, these guys  
are good. Come meet them. (more formal grand openings will follow soon)
	So, just as a reminder, the meeting is
	
		******** October 22nd **************
Thursday, at 6:30 PM, at Reed College, in the Vollum College Center.
Please let me know if you need directions. 
There will be food.

-----------------
Jon Bieley
President
Portland NeXT Users Group
bieley@reed.edu
Xref: sparky or.general:634 pdx.general:1239
From: daver@ECE.ORST.EDU (Dave Rabinowitz)
Newsgroups: or.general,pdx.general
Subject: Re: Measure 9 Voter's Pamphlet Argument
Date: 13 Oct 92 22:15:53 GMT
Article-I.D.: news.Bw2z6L.EAG
Organization: ECE Dept.,OSU,Corvallis

People who want to legislate Christian values into law should remember that the
Pilgrims and other Christian groups that came to this country to escape
religious persecution were all leaving Christian countries.  Making a country
"Christian" doesn't guarantee that Christians will be free.
Newsgroups: or.general,pdx.general
From: herbw@wiskit.rain.com (Herb Weiner)
Subject: Measure 9 Voter's Pamphlet Argument
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 92 02:45:06 GMT
Distribution: or
Organization: Kitchen Wisdom Publishing Company, Portland, Oregon, USA

I urge anyone who has not yet decided how to vote on measure 9
to read the ARGUMENT IN FAVOR furnished by M. Dennis Moore
of the Special Righteousness Committee.  (This is the third
Argument in the Clackamas County Edition of the Oregon Voter's
Pamphlet.  I don't know if the order of Arguments varies by
county.)  Perhaps this argument should even be read by those
who have already decided how they are going to vote.

PLEASE, no flames until AFTER you have read the argument.

Herb
Xref: sparky or.general:625 pdx.general:1235
From: sharvy@reed.edu (V Headshape)
Newsgroups: or.general,pdx.general
Subject: Re: Measure 9 Voter's Pamphlet Argument
Date: 13 Oct 92 18:54:25 GMT
Article-I.D.: reed.1992Oct13.185425.16976
Organization: Reed College, Portland, Oregon

In article <1992Oct12.142824.359@kentrox.uucp> dave@kentrox.uucp (Dave Read) writes:
>In article <4843@n7kbt.rain.com> john@n7kbt.rain.com (John Opalko) writes:
>>In article <1992Oct11.191655.6066@reed.edu> nelson@reed.edu (Nelson Minar) writes:
>>>Look for petitions for too more constitutional amendments soon.
>>> ...
>>>Things like "if your brother dies, it is your duty to impregnate your
>>>brother's wife". This stuff is important to teach our children.
>>
>>Oooo, I *love* guerrilla warfare!
>>
>>This thing is priceless.  Hee, hee.

>Oh yeah, it's a scream.  I can't wait to see whose religious beliefs they're
>going to mock next - Jews? Muslims? Hindus?

Mock them all.

Anyway, I think the point was that it is not actually very many
Christians' religious belief that if your brother dies, it is your duty
to impregnate his wife, even though the Bible commands it. 
-- 
Liberate the Weirdoes and You Liberate the Squares
From: andrew@frip.WV.TEK.COM (Andrew Klossner)
Newsgroups: or.general
Subject: Re: Get into the act and vote!
Date: 13 Oct 92 18:17:04 GMT
Article-I.D.: shaman.1960
Reply-To: andrew@frip.wv.tek.com
Distribution: or
Organization: Tektronix Color Printers, Wilsonville, Oregon


	"There are lots of places to register here in Oregon: the DMV,
	County registrars' offices, and of all places, you can pick up
	registration cards at McDonalds!"

Mail-in registration cards can no longer help you.  The card would have
to *arrive* at the county elections office today (Tuesday October 13).

If you want to register, you have to go somewhere where they'll sign
you up.  Here are the county offices:

Multnomah:  1040 SE Morrison, Portland		phone 248-3720
Clackamas:  825 Portland Avenue, Gladstone	phone 655-8510
Washington: 155 North 1st Avenue, Hillsboro	phone 648-8670

I called Clackamas County, and they say that there are several other
places to sign up, today only, but you have to get there by 5:00pm.
(One such is the Thriftway Store in Wilsonville.)  Perhaps the other
counties have similar programs; call and find out.

  -=- Andrew Klossner  (andrew@frip.wv.tek.com)
                       (uunet!tektronix!frip.WV.TEK!andrew)
From: sharvy@reed.edu (V Headshape)
Newsgroups: or.general
Subject: Re: Measure 9 Voter's Pamphlet Argument [re-post]
Date: 13 Oct 92 19:35:29 GMT
Article-I.D.: reed.1992Oct13.193529.20448
Organization: Reed College, Portland, Oregon

In article <10533@vice.ICO.TEK.COM> hall@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Hal F Lillywhite) writes:
>In article <1992Oct12.193655.9785@reed.edu> sharvy@reed.edu (V Headshape) writes:

>>After God decides to wipe out Soddom & Gomorrah, he sends two
>>angel-messengers to Soddom, to warn Lot so he can escape.
>
>Actualy this seems more to be a couple of "undercover investigators"
>sent to see if the sin of the cities is really as bad as God thinks
>it is (see Gen 18:20-22).  The rescue of Lot seems to be almost an
>afterthought.

Completely wrong.  God tells Abraham that he is going to destroy
Soddom, but agrees not to "destroy the righteous with the wicked."
He sends the angles to determine which citizens are "the righteous"
and they find Lot.  Lot's rescue is not an afterthought at all; it is
central to the plot and the theme that God protects those who obey His
law (and are, therefore, "righteous").  I would have thought, however,
that offering his daughters to be gang-raped would have excluded Lot
from the "righteous"; I think that was very wicked of him, but of
course I'm not a Christian.

>So Lot offered his daughters.  So what?  That indicates a gross error 
>(to say the least) on his part.  However nothing in this account 
>indicates that he was right in doing so.  This is a simple account of 
>what happened, not a statement of what is right and wrong.

He got rescued, and only the righteous were rescued: that says something.
-- 
Liberate the Weirdoes and You Liberate the Squares
Xref: sparky or.general:609 pdx.general:1216
From: sharvy@reed.edu (V Headshape)
Newsgroups: or.general,pdx.general
Subject: Re: Measure 9 Voter's Pamphlet Argument
Date: 12 Oct 92 19:36:55 GMT
Article-I.D.: reed.1992Oct12.193655.9785
Organization: Reed College, Portland, Oregon

In article <1992Oct11.191655.6066@reed.edu> nelson@reed.edu (Nelson Minar) writes:

>Look for petitions for too more constitutional amendments soon. One
>would place the entire book of Leviticus into the constitution, the
>other would place bits of the bible relevant to family values in.
>Things like "if your brother dies, it is your duty to impregnate your
>brother's wife". This stuff is important to teach our children.

The story of Soddom & Gomorrah, oft cited by crusaders as proof that
God disapproves of homosexuality, suggests some additional, not oft
cited, Biblical values.

After God decides to wipe out Soddom & Gomorrah, he sends two
angel-messengers to Soddom, to warn Lot so he can escape.  Lot is a
good-guy (related to Abraham, I think, who God likes).  The Angels
appear as ordinary men and Lot invites them into his home.  The
citizens of Soddom notice the fine looking strangers in Lot's home and
a mob forms outside his door demanding that he send the angels out to
them to be "known."  But Lot is a good host, and offers the mob his
2 virgin daughters instead:

"Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me
bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes."

Genesis, Chapter 19, Verse 8.
(The mob wants the men, though....)

So, family value #1: having your virgin daughters gang-raped (by
Sodomists, no less).  Being a good host is very important in Hebrew tradition.

Later in the chapter, Lot and his daughters have escaped to mountains,
which is where God told them to go, and live in a cave. The
daughters don't like this, because there aren't any men to have
intercourse with, so:

"And the firstborn said to the younger, Our father is old, and there
is not a man in the earth to come in unto us after the manner of all
earth.

Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him,
that we may preserve the seed of our father."

Genesis Chapter 19, Verses 31-32

They then proceed to get him drunk and "lie" with him, and have
sons who later go on to found tribes.

So, Family Value #2: incest is OK in some cases, e.g., if it results
in male offspring (females don't "preserve the seed of [the] father").

These anectodtes are especially useful as ammo against anti-gay
crusaders, because these people will invariably cite the Soddom &
Gomorrah story.

-- 
Liberate the Weirdoes and You Liberate the Squares
From: stever@crosstalk.tv.tek.com (Steven E. Rice  P.E.)
Newsgroups: or.general
Subject: Re: CPSR meeting: "Is It Safe To Call?"
Summary: Will the REAL Steve Biederman please give a valid email address!
Date: 15 Oct 92 17:14:28 GMT
Article-I.D.: tvnews.1992Oct15.171428.2713
Distribution: or
Organization: Tektronix TV Products

In article <1992Oct11.002103.21195@PDX.MENTORG.COM>, it appeared that
Steve Biederman (sbiederman@mentorg.com) had written:

>     Announcing a meeting of Computer Professionals for Social Responsibility
> 
>                             Is It Safe To Call?
>                        The impact of Caller ID on Oregon
> 
>                         Tuesday, October 20th, 8:15 P.M.
>                     PSU PCAT, room 28, SW 5th and Montgomery
> 
> 
>     Caller ID is a telephone service that allows a person receiving a 
> telephone call to see the phone number of the calling phone.   . . .


Unfortunately, there was another date given toward the end of the
article:


>     The meeting will be at 8:15 P.M., on Monday, January 28th, on the
> Portland State University campus, in   . . .


When I sent email to Steve asking for clarification, the result was
certainly not what I had expected:


> From MAILER-DAEMON@mgc.mentorg.COM Thu Oct 15 09:43:31 1992
> Return-Path: <MAILER-DAEMON@mgc.mentorg.COM>
> Received: from soul.tv.tek.com (sol.tv.tek.com) by crosstalk.tv.tek.com (4.1/SMI-4.1(tv.tek.com))
> 	id AA03401; Thu, 15 Oct 92 09:43:30 PDT
> Received: from tektronix.tek.com by soul.tv.tek.com with SMTP id AA18368
>   (5.65c.tv/IDA-1.4.4 for <stever@tv.TV.TEK.COM>); Thu, 15 Oct 1992 09:43:28 -0700
> Received: from mgc.mentorg.com by tektronix.TEK.COM (4.1/8.0)
> 	id AA24969; Thu, 15 Oct 92 09:48:26 PDT
> Received: from relay.tek.com by mgc.mentorg.com with SMTP
> 	(16.6/15.5+MGC-TD 2.20) id AA10497; Thu, 15 Oct 92 09:44:06 -0700
> Date: Thu, 15 Oct 92 09:27:27 PDT
> From: Mail Delivery Subsystem <MAILER-DAEMON@mgc.mentorg.COM>
> Subject: Returned mail: User unknown
> Message-Id: <9210151644.AA10497@mgc.mentorg.com>
> To: <stever@tv.tv.tek.com>
> Status: R
> 
>    ----- Transcript of session follows -----
> 
> While connected to mentorg.com [110.0.0.11] (tcp):
> >>> RCPT To:<sbiederman@mentorg.com>
> <<< 550 <sbiederman@mentorg.com>... User unknown
> 550 <sbiederman@mentorg.com>... User unknown
> 
> 
>    ----- Unsent message follows -----
>
>  . . .


So, what is Steve Biederman's real email address?  Is there one meeting or
two?  If so, when?

Thanx.

					Steve Rice

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
* Every knee shall bow, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord! *
stever@tv.tv.Tek.com                                   [phone (503) 627-1320]
Newsgroups: or.general,pdx.general,or.politics