From: francis@ircam.fr (Joseph Francis)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Depressing Scumpits? Re: Regarding the NY/NJ CON Proposal
Date: 8 Apr 92 12:58:28 GMT
Organization: IRCAM, Paris (France)

In article <1992Apr7.023347.6962@queernet.org> rogerk@QueerNet.ORG (Roger B.A. Klorese) writes:
>In article <1992Apr6.234101.13960@reed.edu>, nelson@reed.edu (Nelson Minar)
>writes:
>|> I live in Portland. I chose to live in Portland. I love this city. It
>|> offends me when you call it a backwater. You're certainly welcome to
>|> offend me, of course.
>
>I understand that the things that make cities "backwaters" are the things that
>make them attractive to other people... all of the "liveability" factors, for
>example.

I couldn't care less aboute "liveability" for visiting a city. I find the
idea of visiting Moscow as interesting as Copenhagen.

>But for a vacation spot, for me at least, "liveability" is so much
>shit.

I think we're in accord.

>I don't want to visit anyplace because it's comfy, pretty, socially
>enlightened, or offers any of the things I can undferstand wanting in a home.

I'd visit Stockholm for the Meatballs. ;)

>I want to visit places that have lots of high- (and low- and queer-) culture
>things to do.

That is a very, very tricky thing to do. "Natural" queer culture in
the rural South, for instance, is very different from Queer culture in
larger cities. You are more likely to see a kind of queer culture --
"Miss Gay Southeast" or see Lesbians doing male jock drag -- in a
small-town bar that functions as a central, mixed meeting point for a
dispersed rural community (which are fairly organized contrary to
popular belief). Not everyone is a fan of Country and Western culture
-- but if you've ever visited Nashville, the depth and breadth of the
machine that develops around it is shocking. Is queer culture the
ability to go in a boutique and buy a teeshirt which reads "Took a
dicking but still likes licking"? Is it the ability to kiss and hold
hands in public? Is it the ability to wear leather at whim?

I'm no fan of small towns, believe me. I'm also no fan of bloated unhappy
excess.

...
>not that New York isn't a filthy, depressing scumpit... it's just that, to me,
>that's the way cities should be,

To me, in comparison with Amsterdam, Berlin, Paris, Rome, San
Francisco, Dallas, Boston, Washington D.C., Atlanta, Los Angeles,
Sydney, Melbourne, Toronto, Hong Kong, Singapore, and even Jeddah, New
York is about as fascinating as an old scab. Istanbul is dirty, but
far from depressing. On the dirty and vaguely malaisaceous side
Djakarta, Chicago, London, Mexico City, and definitely New York.
Beautiful, fascinating, culturally rich and complex cities definitely
don't have to be filthy depressing scumpits. It is just the sort of
fuck-you self-satisfied blind attitude, or perhaps just poverty, which
develops and engulfs.

I found San Francisco (on my last trip) to be what I imagined New York
imagines itself to be.

>and any higher on the liveability index and
>lower on the stress index is just second-rate.

Paris, Berlin, Rome, Amsterdam (yes, small): second-rate? Toronto,
San Francisco, Los Angeles second-rate? Hmm.

>|> As for whining, if you really want to make the con be somewhere other
>|> than Portland, that it's your own fucking job to get off your ass

Whoosh!
>
>My point was, simply, that I was dismayed at how easily the NY/NJ crowd
>passed on the opportunity.  I *would* work on another SF con... I just
>don't think we should have one.  (I'd favor London or Paris, actually.)

If there were a charter flight arranged, Amsterdam would be a better
alternative. London is quite literally 100% more expensive than
virtually any city in the US, and that's just for food.

-- 
| Le Jojo: Fresh 'n' Clean, speaking out to the way you want to live
| today; American - All American; doing, a bit so, and even more so.