From: mcgrath@cs.uiuc.edu (Robert McGrath)
Subject: Re: Ghosts
Reply-To: mcgrath@cs.uiuc.edu
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept of Computer Science
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 17:38:16 GMT

In article <18h6q8INNqdc@network.ucsd.edu>, philipm@papillon.ucsd.edu (The Philster) writes in part:
|> 
|> Yet there are people who say they've experienced these too. 
Quite.  People SAY many things.  This is called "folklore."  

It is extremely interesting to examine the stories of visits from 
the dead in different cultures and over history.  Needless to say, 
the appearance and behavior of the dead are radically different in 
different cultural situations.

See, perhaps, R. N. Fincune, "Appearance of the Dead", Prometheus Books.


|> I was trying to say that in my own personal association with people, I have found it quite
|> curious that atleast four people have seen ghosts of their relatives without
|> being aware of their death. 
Curious in what way?  How many times do people see ghosts of people who
AREN'T dead?

|> (1)  One girl, about 8 years old, was visited by her grandmother. The girl
|> was not aware that it was a ghost, the reason being a ghost was that her
|> grandmother had died a day earlier. The girl had not attended the funeral,
|> the girl was not aware of the death, the girl did not understand the concept
|> of death. The girl told her mother the next day that "grandma was here and
|> told me goodbye." The mother reacted with surprise, and then correlated the
|> event with the girl's failure to attend the funeral.
This was probably a dream.  The only thing that makes this seem to be
a visit from the dead is that the dream grandma said goodbye--something
that grandmas say all the time.  The little girl probably dreamed
about people all the time, including grandma.  Your statement,
"the reason being a ghost was that her grandmother had died a day earlier"
is just plain wrong--this is what you want to be true, but the
episode provides no evidence at all that this is true.

|> (2) A woman was over at a friend's house. The television was on yet the volume was turned down. The woman glanced at the tv, and then saw a scene where
|> a large mass of people were surrounding the image of a man who remarkably
|> looked like her father. She was so surprised that she pointed this out to
|> everyone. She noticed the time of the event since it was so strange. A few
|> days later she found out her father died around the same time as the event.
Sorry, but this is typical of this type of story--retrospective.  It
is not possible to confirm this story, and even if it was I'll bet it
doesn't pan out.  Pure superstition.

|> In addition, we would have to assume that ESP
|> is an actual process, and like this discussion, I am simply presenting the
|> information which I have read about and experienced and leaving it up to all of
|> us to try to find a common explanation.
The examples I see here are 1) a mom putting a conventional interpretation
on a child's report of a dream and 2) a woman who is able to construct
a conventional "ghost" out of recollections.

Both are basically examples of how people can fit events and memories
into conventional folk beliefs about ghosts.  This is well known to
anthropologists, and is done by people in all cultures throughout
history.  What is paranormal about this?


|> >We also have an inability to determine fact from fiction. We can take
|> >inteligent guesses, but we can never know anything.
|> >
|> True.
|> 
|> 
|> Phil
The game, of course, is to be a sure as is possible.

-- 
  Robert E. McGrath
  Urbana Illinois
  mcgrath@cs.uiuc.edu