HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Enigmatic double citizenship in ESTONIA
Date: 3 Oct 92 22:08:29 GMT
Organization: Enea Data AB

Tapani Hietaniemi (thietaniemi@cc.helsinki.fi) writes:
>Exactly. I suppose that only those citizens that are permanent residents
>in Estonia will have the right to vote in the next elections.

That would indeed be strange. I mean most countries do allow
their citizens to vote in national elections, even if they
are living abroad, don't they? At least for a certain time.
I think there was - I'm uncertain whether there still is -
a limit on seven years for how long you could be reside outside
Sweden and still be entitled to vote in national elections.

Of course, in case of these "John Johnsons" they have been outside
Estonia all their life, but as Estonian citizens for a shorter
period of time. On the other hand, the case of John Johnson
seems highly theoretical to me. If you get a citizenship, you
are probably interested of what is going on in Estonia as well.

>With hundred crowns, one can buy three pints of the best Danish beer in
>a Tallin pub (Tallin = Taani linn = Denmark's city).

Hm, is "Taani" really "Denmark's"? I thought it rather was "Danish".

-- 
Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - sommar@enea.se
There are many sorts of Macedonians: Greek, Bulgarian, Roumanian, Macedonian...
From: thietaniemi@cc.helsinki.fi
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Double citizenship in ESTONIA
Date: 27 Sep 92 12:54:10 GMT
Organization: University of Helsinki

In article <1992Sep26.165825.19769@enea.se>, sommar@enea.se 
(Erland Sommarskog) writes:
> Tapani Hietaniemi (thietaniemi@cc.helsinki.fi) writes:
>>Still, one must make an important qualification: The refugees who fled
>>Estonia because of the Stalinistic occupation and were Estonian citizens may
>>hold the other citizenship they have got. But, Taagepera could not
>>become president with double citizenship. That is why he declared
>>in his campaign that if he will be elected, he will give up
>>his Canadian citizenship.
 
> An interesting question is Jaan Manitski who became foreign
> minister in Estonia only 2-3 three weeks after he had (re)-
> acquired Estonian citizenship. Has he given up his Swedish
> citizenship? Whether he qualifies to hold double citizenship,
> I am not realy certain. I think he was born in Estonia, but
> I am not sure whether it was 1940 or earlier. His parents escaped 
> with him from Estonia during WWII, though.

According to the existing legislation he must have given up his
Swedish citizenship. If not, we could sue the Estonian state.
But I have not checked this by calling Mr. Manitski (who was,
by the way, the first and hopefully, the last Estonian foreign 
minister that did not master the Russian language . His 
precedessor, Lennart Meri speaks Russian fluently).
 
> Two other interesting persons are Andres K"ung and Peter Luksep
> who both were members of the Estonian Congress who at least for
> a while claimed to be the "real" parlamentary assembly of
> Estonia. Both Messers K"ung and Luksep are active on high levels
> in Swedish political parties; K"ung in the board of the Liberal
> Party while Luksep has a seat in the Swedish parliament for
> the Conservatives. 
> Erland Sommarskog 

If they do not hold an office in Estonia, they do not have to
give up their Swedish citizenship.

som {r, naturligtvis, v{rdefull!
Tapani Hietaniemi
From: thietaniemi@cc.helsinki.fi
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Furstenberg and other things (Was: Human
Date: 3 Oct 92 12:15:23 GMT
Organization: University of Helsinki

In article <1ajtc2INNsvg@uniwa.uwa.edu.au>, wojdylo@maths.uwa.oz.au
(INFIDEL) writes:>
> Finally, perhaps our Finnish observers would like to explain why the
> Furstenberg school, the Arajs Kommando and the other SD divisions had no
> shortage of fighters for their cause in occupied Latvia and Estonia.
> John Wojdylo
> Perth, Western Australia

Why are WE supposed to explain that? 
What is the thing that NEEDS to be explained?

Tapani Hietaniemi
From: thietaniemi@cc.helsinki.fi
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Enigmatic double citizenship in ESTONIA
Date: 4 Oct 92 14:24:30 GMT
Organization: University of Helsinki

In article <1992Oct4.104217.21779@enea.se>, sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog) writes:
> Tapani Hietaniemi (thietaniemi@cc.helsinki.fi) writes:
>>Unfortunately, the case in not a theoretical one. Nobody knows
>>for sure how many Estonian citizens there are all around the world.
>>(The number might be near 100.000, but your guess is as good as mine.)
>>In principle, they could outnumber the Estonians living in Estonia
>>after some generations.
> 
> Wait a minute. I might have been sleeping, but I gathered from the
> previous discussion that although citizens of Estonia 1940 and
> their descenders are entitled to citizenship, they still have to
> register for it. Thus, to get citizenship requires some activity
> on your behalf.

Check my post Sun, 27 Sep 13.51 GMT for details. BTW, it was a
comment for you.

Tapani
From: wojdylo@maths.uwa.oz.au (INFIDEL)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Enigmatic double citizenship in ESTONIA
Date: 29 Sep 1992 02:24:59 GMT
Organization: The University of Westrn Australia
NNTP-Posting-Host: madvax.maths.uwa.oz.au

thietaniemi@cc.helsinki.fi writes:

>--------------------------------------------------------------
>UPDATING AND RECTIFYING THE DATA ON ESTONIAN
>DOUBLE CITIZENSHIP - EXCITING, ISN'T IT? >:-(
>---------------------------------------------------------------

>In article <1992Sep26.165825.19769@enea.se>, sommar@enea.se 
> 
>> In case of the Russians in Estonia, there are no special circum-
>> stances involved. It is also obvious that they cannot have both 
>> Russian and Estonian citizenship. If some few people have
>> double loyalties, the state does not crumble, but if some 30-40%
>> have citizenship in another state which is a potential enemy
>> then things can become quite scary.

[...]

Too bad diplomacy isn't a forte of the Estonian government.

Diplomacy takes a back seat, and it's back to the tribal spear-shaking.

jw


Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
From:  ggom@coira.kheta.georgia.su (Dr. George V. Gomelaury)
Subject: Parlamentary elections in the Republic of Georgia
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1992 20:11:36 GMT
Reply-To: ggom@coira.kheta.georgia.su
Organization: Coherent Optics and IR Astrophysics Lab.
Keywords: Republic of Georgia, Caucasus, elections, parties
Summary: Information materials on the Parlamentary elections in Georgia

                    THE CAUCASIAN INSTITUTE
              FOR PEACE, DEMOCRACY AND DEVELOPMENT

Galaktionis, 20                    Mailing address:
Tbilisi 380007,                    P.O.Box #4 (158),
Republic of Georgia                Tbilisi 380008,
                                   Republic of Georgia
Telephones: +7(8832)997261,
+7(8832)314983
E-mail (Internet): ggom@kheta.georgia.su
Fax: +7(095)5312403, in this case it is necessary (!!!) to put
SCIENCECITE
in the left upper corner of your messege!
_________________________________________________________________

October 2, 1992


     The Caucasian Institute for Peace, Democracy and Development
(a non-governmental, non-profit organization) has prepared
information materials for the Parliamentary elections in Georgia
coming on 11th of October, 1992. You will find here a brief
introductory note which gives a general political background and an
outline of the pre-Election situation, also concise information on
each of 47 parties who take part in the Elections: their
background, ideology, claimed membership, organizational structure,
leaders and most popular figures, international connections, pre-
electoral hopes and ratings, addresses and telephones.

     After the elections the Institute is going to expand the
material with election results and analysis.

     The information may be available through E-mail.
Unfortunately, we cannot afford sending it free of charge.

     Please contact us if you are interested.
        E-mail (Internet): ggom@kheta.georgia.su


                                   Ghia Nodia


                                   Chair, Board
                                   Caucasian Institute for
                                   Peace, Democracy and Development
From: dima@maths.uwa.oz.au (Dima Pasechnik)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: currency exchange and the means...
Date: 26 Sep 1992 04:20:36 GMT
Organization: The University of Westrn Australia
NNTP-Posting-Host: madvax.maths.uwa.oz.au
Keywords: currancy, currency

bil@burka..aix.kingston.ibm.com (Igor Belchinskiy) writes:

>In article <Sep.25.14.13.58.1992.28648@pilot.njin.net> hubey@pilot.njin.net (Hubey) writes:
>>
>>I'm still not clear. Can an ordinary Russian citizen go to any bank
>>and exchange whatever rubles he has at his disposal for dollars ?

>No. rubles -> dollars means very long queue - don't know what else.
So actually YES, but if you are not in hurry. I suppose it should depend
on the rate they sell $. The worse rate means less waiting. 

>>Will he be asked questions regarding how he came upon this money ?
In April in some banks he may be asked for 'foreign' passport with exit etc.
visas. But same were selling them without this (unique) restriction.
>>
>>One final question; is there a restriction on the amount of money
>>(dollars) that a Russian citizen traveling abroad can take with him ?

>$500 - in both directions - 2 weeks ago
I suppose it's the  amount which is not necessary to declare. Declared
amount should be bigger. If one is going abroad, he may be asked about
receipts on the declared amount, but receipts from any autorized $$
seller are sufficient (March-April info. That time the undeclared amount
was only 200$, btw). 

>>
>>   hubey@pilot.njin.net                   hubey@apollo.montclair.edu
>> ...!rutgers!pilot!hubey                  hubey@logos.montclair.edu
From: ilevi@nocharge.East.Sun.COM (Irina Levi - Sun East Coast IR Development)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Latvia
Keywords: Latvia
Date: 30 Sep 92 19:44:46 GMT
Reply-To: ilevi@nocharge.East.Sun.COM
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
NNTP-Posting-Host: nocharge.east.sun.com


  ..............
Alex Goykhman writes:
    I do not know about Estonia, but in Latvia a majority
    of the natives believe that they are a Germanic people
    and, therefore, entitled to have a standard of living
    similar to that of the Germany's.  To prove this point, 
    they would tell you that before 1940 Latvia was exporting 
    agricultural products to Western Europe and beyond (read: 
    those products were of superior quality).

    Consequently, in order to restore their standard of living,
    the Latvians must purify their genetic stock from the
    contamination that occured after 1940 ("to save the Latvian
    nation"?).  
   ............


  Latvians do not think that they belong to German race.
Historically Latvia used to lean towards Germany, and 
even Russian tsarina Anna Ioanovna (who spoke German and
did not speak Russian) lived in Kurzeme's part of Latvia (Kurlyandia). 
German culture was always very popular in Latvia. German language 
was very widely spoken and even now some families use it.
It is true that when Latvia was an independent country (1918 - 1940)
it was exporting it's high-quality agricultural
products to Europe and republic's population enjoyed high standard of living.
It changed very rapidly in 1940.
From: Peter=Neenan%NetAd%HSRD@HSRD.SOWO.UNC.EDU
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: re: Re: ESTONIA existed and exists (Was: "SOME
Date: 28 Sep 92 13:12:35 GMT
Reply-To: "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" <TPS-L@indycms.iupui.edu>

While we're talking about relocating people to their original situs, don't
forget the Huns, Visigoths, and Ostrogoths!  CELT POWER!!!!!
From: thietaniemi@cc.helsinki.fi
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Enigmatic double citizenship in ESTONIA
Date: 27 Sep 92 15:18:40 GMT
Organization: University of Helsinki

In article <1992Sep27.155142.1@cc.helsinki.fi>, thietaniemi@cc.helsinki.fi
writes: 
> - At the same time, about the same amount of ethnic Russians that are
> Estonian citizens voted in the elections. The correspondent of Izvestiya
> even wrote that 10.000 "Russians" voted 20.09. But, since Estonian republic
> has no ethnic control in elections, we might never know the actual
> figure. The correspondent had only extrapolated the percentage
> of Russian speaking citizens in Estonia 1938 to the contemporary 
> conditions. I have reasons to suppose that 10.000 must be too great 
> a figure...
 
Sorry, because of _exhaustion_ I made above an idiotic error: instead of
10 000 one should read 10% (such things happen in the phone sometimes...)
According Izvestiya, 10% those that voted in elections were ethnic
Russians. When about half a million did cast their votes, the amount
of Russian speaking voters was, according to Izvestiya, about 50 000,
which I think, is too great a figure...

According to a recent sociological investigation 20% of 600 000 Russian
speakers in Estonia consider themselves to be Estonian citizens.
The real figure is supposed to be somewhat smaller, because the 
details of legislation are a little complicated, as you must have found out.

In the next year, the statistical register on the citizens of Estonia
will be completed. Before it, finding out the statistics is no
peace of cake....

> Well, when I promised to check the facts, I had to keep my promise.
 
> with the best regards
> the observer
> Tapani Hietaniemi, University of Helsinki
 
ibid.
From: thietaniemi@cc.helsinki.fi
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Enigmatic double citizenship in ESTONIA
Date: 5 Oct 92 13:03:49 GMT
Organization: University of Helsinki

In article <1992Oct4.095840.1@cc.helsinki.fi>, thietaniemi@cc.helsinki.fi
writes:
> In article <1992Oct3.220829.4837@enea.se>, sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog)
> writes:
>> Tapani Hietaniemi (thietaniemi@cc.helsinki.fi) writes:
>>>a Tallin pub (Tallin = Taani linn = Denmark's city).
>>
>> Hm, is "Taani" really "Denmark's"? I thought it rather was "Danish".

>>>a Tallin pub (Tallin = Taani linn = Denmark's city).
>>
>> Hm, is "Taani" really "Denmark's"? I thought it rather was "Danish".
>
> "Taani" means both "Denmark" and "Denmark's". "Danish" = "taanlane".


Unfortunately, it turned out that the matter was more complicated (as usually)
:-(

I got some instant lessons from native Estonians which I reproduce here:

Both meanings are correct, but it depends, how you write:
If You write 'Taani linn' -- It's meaning is 'Denmark's  city' or city which
belongs to Denmark (for instance Copenhagen). 'Taani' here is a noun in the
possesive  case. The same spelling is also
in nominative case 'Taani'.
If one writes 'taani linn' -- It's meaning is 'Danish city'. Here 'taani' is
adjective  in the nominative case.

And also it is very important to mark that correct spelling is 'Tallinn' with
two 'n' in the end.

Have you had extra lessons on Estonian, Sommarskog? It seems to be the case.

with the best regards
Tapani Hietaniemi. University of Helsinki
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
From: goykhman_a@apollo.hp.com (Alex Goykhman)
Subject: Re: News from "democratic" Estonia
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 15:52:28 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Chelmsford, MA

In article <1992Sep26.171651.20187@enea.se> sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog) writes:
>Sergei Viznyuk (viznyuk@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu) writes:
>)  Today the expected president of Estonia
>)Lennart Meri gave interview to Russian TV
>)where he declared (in Russian) that his
>)primary goal is "to save the Estonian nation
>)from extinction", and that non-Estonians
>)could go away from Estonia "to territories
>)between St.Peterburg and Moscow".
>)  This interview one could probably see today 09/25
>)on C-SPAN-2 in between 6pm-10pm.
>)
>)  Well, so far for the claims of esteemed Erland
>)Sommarskog that nobody is expelling non-Estonians.
>
>So because he said this, this proves that non-Estonians
>are being expelled today?

    While non-natives are not being expelled from the
    Baltics, the goverments there are bent on making their
    life intolerable in hope they would leave voluntarily.

    I do not know about Estonia, but in Latvia a majority
    of the natives believe that they are a Germanic people
    and, therefore, entitled to have a standard of living
    similar to that of the Germany's.  To prove this point, 
    they would tell you that before 1940 Latvia was exporting 
    agricultural products to Western Europe and beyond (read: 
    those products were of superior quality).

    Consequently, in order to restore their standard of living,
    the Latvians must purify their genetic stock from the
    contamination that occured after 1940 ("to save the Latvian
    nation"?).  

>
>Not that I agree with the statement. Then again, I wouldn't
>hardly take it as a fact that he said it just because Viznuyk
>claims so.
>-- 
>Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - sommar@enea.se
>There are many sorts of Macedonians: Greek, Bulgarian, Roumanian, Macedonian...
>


-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Disclaimer: all opinions are mine.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
From: ryyti@jyu.fi (Jarmo Ryyti)
Subject: Re: Confusing the issue
Organization: University of Jyvaskyla, Finland
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 08:34:02 GMT


sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog) writes:
: Jarmo Ryyti (ryyti@jyu.fi) writes:
: >Just an example: In Iceland you cannot get citizenship if you do not
: >pass the language test in icelandic and besides that ONE HAVE TO TAKE
: >AN ICELANDIC NAME, change his/her previous foreign name into
: >icelandic one. Iceland is still a member of the United Nations and Council
: >of Europe! NO international protests!
: 
: Please leave out irrelevant comparisons. Had there been a large
: group of residents on Iceland who would have been excluded from
: citizenship because of these rules, you can bet there would have
: been protests.

Iceland is no irrevelant comparison. Iceland have very strict citizenship
laws BECAUSE SHE WANTS TO REMAIN HER NATIONAL CHARACTERISTICS.
The US soldiers at Keflavik base cannot move freely around, english
TV transmission from the base was for a long time banned in order
to keep Iceland "icelandic". You know small nations like Iceland
which has less than 300 000 inhabitants have to work to maintain
their culture. In this sence the estonians are acting same way. 
If the US soldiers at Keflavik base tried to stay in the country
they had to apply Icelandic citizenship even if they had been
for decades in Iceland!!!!!!
BTW I am interested in Russian citizenship laws ourdays more.
Regards,
Jarmo
From: arto@leland.Stanford.EDU (Artavazd Khachikian)
Subject: Text of the Resolution of the European Parliament
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 92 02:57:22 GMT

	The following is the text of the resolution of the European
Parliament passed on the 18 of June, 1987 in Brussels:



	"The refusal of the present Turkish government to acknowledge the
Genocide against the Armenian people committed by the Young Turk government,
its reluctance to apply the principles of international law to its differences
of opinion with Greece, the maintenance of Turkish occupation forces in Cyprus
and the denial of the existence of the Kurdish question, together with the lack
of true parliamentary democracy and the failure to respect individual and 
collective freedoms, in particular freedom of religion, in that country are 
insurmountable obstacles to consideration of the possibility of Turkey's
accession to the Community".
From: dleschin@FEDS66.PRIME.COM ("", Dmitri Leschiner)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Human rights VIOLATIONS in ESTONIA
Date: 29 Sep 92 20:58:55 GMT
Reply-To: "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" <TPS-L@indycms.iupui.edu>

> Date:         Tue, 29 Sep 1992 11:14:17 GMT
> From: thietaniemi@CC.HELSINKI.FI
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> (ESTONIAN) INDEPENDENCE LOST
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> On June 16, 1940, a Soviet ultimatum demanded a new Estonian government,
> "able and willing to secure the honest application of the Soviet - Estonia
> mutual assistance treaty." The following day Soviet armed forces occupied
> the whole country, and on June 19 Andrei Zhdanov, a member of the Kremlin
> Politburo, arrived in Tallin to complete the designs of the Soviet
> government. On June 21 a puppet government headed by Johannes Vares
> took over.

Could anyone suggest some sources providing more details of events of
first days and weeks after occupation? In particular, what was a (formal)
procedure for establishing Vares' goverment? Did parliament take place in it?
What was the position and behaviour of various political forces concerning
the events? One knows that people at the gunpoint could not be required
to be heroes, still often they come to be. In particular, it would be worth
comparing behaviour of Russian liberal and conservative politicians during
1917 to Estonians in 1940.

>            On July 14-15 the "election" of a new Chamber of Deputies
> took place under a new procedure ignoring the provisions of the
> constitution and electoral law. Only the single list of Soviet-sponsored
> candidates was allowed to stand. On July 21 the new chamber was
> presented with a resolution to join the U.S.S.R.; it was unanimously
> adopted the following day in spite of being contrary to constitutional
> procedure.

So, constitution and laws were not changed according to new procedures?
Or were they?

>            On Aug. 6 the Moscow Supreme Soviet incorporated Estonia
> into the U.S.S.R. Meanwhile, Pa"ts, Laidoner, and many political
> leaders were arrested and deported to the U.S.S.R. In the first
> 12 months of Soviet occupation more than 60,000 persons were killed
> or deported: more than 10,000 were removed in a mass deportation
> during the night of June 13-14, 1941.
>
>
> After restoration of the Soviet regime, Vares became the first
> chairman of the Presidium of the Estonian Supreme Soviet; he
> committed suicide in 1946 --
>
From: thietaniemi@cc.helsinki.fi
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: "monarchic" ESTONIA (Was: ESTONIAN elect
Date: 27 Sep 92 12:27:27 GMT
Organization: University of Helsinki

In article <1992Sep26.170155.19964@enea.se>, sommar@enea.se 
(Erland Sommarskog) writes:
> Tapani Hietaniemi (thietaniemi@cc.helsinki.fi) writes:
>>The other winning party in elections was the Royalist party. It
>>consist of political jokers, playwrights and artists, which consider
>>themselves to be kind of court jesters in parliament. This odd
>>grouping got 8 seats (of 101). They even have nominated their own
>>king to ascend to the throne of Estonia, namely, Kirill the first.
> 
> Who is he?
> 
> What I've read in Swedish papers is that they have named the
> Prince Carl Philip, son of the Swedish king Carl XVI Gustav.
> Erland Sommarskog

They have, actually, done both. Kirill I is in reality Kirill Teiter,
who individually got 21% of votes (!) of the isle Saaremaa
(in Swedish: \sel). The other royalist were so impressed with that
prestation, that they even granted him the royal crown during the
election night.

Before that the royalists had visited the Swedish court. The prince 
you mention was suggested to become the king of Estonia. But I heard 
that the royalists were accused of disturbing the peace of royal court.
But that's what they are supposed to be doing - they are court jesters,
aren't they?

Quite frankly, I consider this peculiar protest party to be more like
a sad story than a funny joke...

with the best regards
Tapani Hietaniemi, University of Helsinki
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.europe