HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: xcz13@isuvax.iastate.edu
Subject: SACRAFICE
Reply-To: xcz13@isuvax.iastate.edu
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, Iowa
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1992 18:21:07 GMT

THE CONCEPT OF SACRAFICE IS IN CHRISTIANITY.
A NUN OR PREST MAKES SACRAFICES WHIN INTERING THA ORDER. THEY SACRAFICE ALL
OF THERE WORLDLY GOODS AND DESIERS.

ELF-KIN
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson)
Subject: Re: Jesus was a pagan and lonely wiccians
Organization: Hewlett-Parkard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1992 23:39:59 GMT

nc313127@wvnvms.wvnet.edu writes:
: I got some questions.(I can here you all panicing now!)
: 
: 	1) I have heard that Jesus Christ was originally a Celtic Myth (maybe 
: 	about Merlin) that was perverted-i mean modified- by the Mediteranian
: 	culture(s) for some reason.  Does anyone have any facts, speculation,
: 	or ideas?

Nope. Look up Dionysus, among other gods who were part of a death/resurection
myth. These myths existed long before there was any contact between the Celtic
and Mediteranian cultures.

: 	2) I have been reading "LLyweLLens(sp?) Guide for the Individual
: 	Wiccan."  Now its say that their are a Goddess and a God(no mention 
: 	of Horned or not) and that it doesn't matter what you name them.
: 	I cam deal with that, But I does not mention any Child( like the Sun
: 	Child) in the book.  Other books I read have mentioned Him in various
: 	form, but I am not sure where he fits in the plan.  Is he important
: 	or nessecary to Wicca?  I feel he should be because many religions
: 	have a Son god.  I would welcome your opinions and knowlege.

Are you talking about a "sun" god or a "son" god? Gods/goddesses are only
necessary if you feel they are necessary. Several religions that have the
death/rebirth myth have the god reassembled out of the component pieces.
Some also have the god being his own father and son. After all, why should
a god be limited by human logic or limitations?

: 	3) Any opinions on this book(above)?  Are there any better books I
: 	should read?
: 
: 	4) What is a good source of Druid/Celtic history and mythos?
: 
: 	5) Anyone know anything about the Land Of Summer Twilight?

I will leave these questions to others with more exact knowledge.

Bill
Xref: sparky alt.pagan:4533 sci.skeptic:7953
From: cortese@hepxvt.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
Subject: Re: "experiments"
Newsgroups: alt.pagan,sci.skeptic
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: 9 Apr 92 17:34:23 GMT

In article <1992Apr9.062222.22685@cs.tulane.edu> tcjw@rs1.tcs.tulane.edu (john wirta) writes:
>WHY IS EVERYONE FLAMING MY ARTICLE ??
>
>I was only attempting to point out that it is better to defend your beliefs
>to a skeptic should he wish to know of them.  And if that means giving a 
>demonstration of magic (experiment was a bad word, means there is a chance
>it won't succeed) fine.  Why would I want to change a skeptics views?  I
>don't care what a skeptic's views are, if he wants to question the existance
>of magic then I will do my best to prove the existance of magic to him.  I
>will not go out and attempt to make every fella on the street a believer in
>magic.  I also agree that it is necessary to have effective proof of magic's
>existance, if you don't, then get some before you try to prove it to anyone
>else.
>

No, dear, we're not flaming you for trying to prove your point to a
skeptic -- we're flaming the WAYS in which you wish to do so.  Your
"experiments" (the quotes seem to be a part of it now) are not likely to
convince a skeptic who knows what s/he is talking about; they will only
convince him/her that magic is a crock, and the people who practice it
crackpots.  A poorly conducted experiment can damage a person's
reputation as well as the reputation of the field for a lo-o-o-ong time.

Blessings,
Janis

P.S.: Hope I got the right person, here.  Were you talking about energy
balls and stuff?  If not, sorry -- but then I was never known for
closing my outh when it would do any good.

Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: mangoe@cs.umd.edu (Charley Wingate)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Jesus was a pagan and lonely wiccians
Date: 14 Apr 92 02:29:24 GMT

Tim Maroney writes:

>It's quite obvious from any unbiased study of the religions that Christianity
>had more than a little to do with the Attis cult.  I have yet to see anyone
>devoid of intrinsic pro-Christian bias argue against this point.  (The
>statements of those who are personally committed to a pro-revelatory and
>anti-pagan interpretation of the meaning of Christianity can safely be
>ignored; at some level they always devolve into a semi-hysterical denial of
>obvious points of similarity and contact.)

Really, now, Tim: honest argument has no need of "it's quite obvious" and
"can be safely ignored".  Religion has the rather substantial problem that
commitment and belief go hand in hand; you yourself could be considered a
biased authority here, on essentially the same grounds as you cite here.

Your argument here is essentially the claim that a rejection of
Attis/Osiris/whatever theories of christian origins inevitably arises out of
a prior commitment to christianity.  I find this unsound on two counts.
First, I fail to see the evidence for it.  Second, the fallacy of their
criticisms does not follow from this commitment.

>Anyone actually going to the Gospels and reading the words attributed to
>Jesus discovers vengefulness and sex-hatred in _at_least_ equal measure to
>statements about niceness and mutual respect.  Niceness was only for those
>who accepted the word of the Son of God; the rest would burn forever in the
>next life and demanded shunning in this one.

Obviously, Tim, you were not paying attention in Sunday school.  And, as is
typical, you confuse human morality with divine action.  The wrath of the
LORD is not in the least bit constrained by anything anyone says about human
moral principles.  And you seem to have forgotten the parable of the Good
Samaritan, and the Samaritan women, and Jesus consorting with tax
collectors...  You also seem to forget the authorship of the letters to the
Romans and to the Corinthians.

I don't want to get in a long-winded argument about christian origins.  The
quality of information is not good enough for sound scholarship, at least
not if this scholarship would make the sort of claims you make.
-- 
C. Wingate        + "Were you there when they crucified my Lord?
                  +  Were you there when they crucified my Lord?
mangoe@cs.umd.edu +  O, some times it causes me to tremble, tremble, tremble,
tove!mangoe       +  Were you there when they crucified my Lord?"
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: tonyd@lclark.edu (Anthony Davis)
Subject: Re: Torak History
Organization: Lewis & Clark College, Portland OR
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1992 20:17:41 GMT

In article <uDwoiB10w164w@hrnowl.lonestar.org> nausicaa@hrnowl.lonestar.org (Nausicaa) writes:
>wb9tow@hackney.ecn.purdue.edu (Steven A Marquie) writes:
>
>> I had the pleasure of finding something "almost" acceptable for my children t
>> watch on television, a movie called "TROLL". While a victim of Hollywood
>> sensationlism, it did provide some entertainment for us less the blood and 
>> terror of a 1950's western. 
>> Does anyone have knowledge of a version of the conflict between the fairy 
>> kingdom and mankind that would be suitable for children under 10? Or adults?
>> Naturally, my son Talon and daughter Gwendellyn Elendil have head the Hobbit!
>> What Witch child's life would be complete without hearing of Bilbo?
>> Thank you for all the help....bright blessings
>> 						Steve
>
>I'm not too certain of films since I really don't watch them anymore...but 
>some books that I read around that age which involved the fey are such as 
>The Wizard Children of Finn and it's sequel....
>I would list more, but they seem to have slipped my mind..
> 
>Nausicaa

you know, the first time i saw Troll, i had found it in the horror section.
i started out bummed, but soon became delighted.  's very nice.

boogedy,
tonyd
From: smayo@wang.com (Scott Mayo)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: alt.survey questions available (for those who missed it)
Date: 15 Apr 92 17:50:23 GMT
Organization: Wang Labs, Lowell MA, USA

Some of you missed the original posting for the alt.pagan survey.
Rather than repost the questions every few days, which will annoy
a lot of folk, I will just post directions describing how to fetch
the questions from my system (and repost this short message periodically).

Send mail to 
    smayo@wang.com
and set the Subject: line of your message to
    @daemon info survey
Do *not* leave out the atsign (@) or your message will be ignored. A
mail autodaemon will reply with a copy of the survey questions. Don't
misspell daemon or info or survey either. That's D-A-E-M-O-N. The message
itself can and should be left blank - I don't see them, usually.

When done, mail the survey to smayo@wang.com with a subject containing
    alt.pagan survey

Thanks. I expect to end the survey on 5/10/92.
--
These are only my opinions.  You should hear my convictions.
smayo@wang.com
Xref: sparky alt.pagan:4726 sci.skeptic:8125
From: cortese@hepxvt.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
Subject: Re: "experiments"
Newsgroups: alt.pagan,sci.skeptic
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: 15 Apr 92 20:31:46 GMT

In article <1992Apr15.030005.14387@latcs1.lat.oz.au> burns@latcs1.lat.oz.au (Jonathan Burns) writes:
>In article <1992Apr9.225928.2537@samba.oit.unc.edu>
> shava@hermes.oit.unc.edu (Shava Nerad Averett) writes:
>
>> In article <1992Apr6.015822.26877@latcs1.lat.oz.au> burns@latcs1.lat.oz.au (Jonathan Burns) writes:
>>
>>> BTW, do we have any solid results on cetacean intelligence? 
>
>> Now, let's assume for a moment that dolphins and various cetaceans have
>> some real intelligence, and can communicate sophistocated concepts among
>> themselves, just for the sake of argument.  After having a few of their
>> kind come back with tales about captivity by humans, do you think perhaps
>> they'd be handing around a lore of information about humans:
>> 
>> 	If you are captured by a human, act stupid.  Try to act
>> 	no smarter than perhaps a bull sealion.
>> 
>> It would be an issue of preservation of the race, no doubt...
>
>I'm afraid it would mean that a lot of dolphins have been martyring
>themselves in tuna nets to keep up the cover, my dear. <sigh>
>
>But it's lovely to think that some day when the nets are all dolphin-
>safed, and the fish-stocks are regenerated, these grey snouts are
>going to break surface by some tourist boat in the Barrier Reef,
>and say "Hey. Guesswhat."
>

A friend of mine remarked recently that the dolphins who have been
snagged and used for studies come back with all these weird tales about
how:

"We were captured by aliens, who poked and prodded us, and made us take
all these tests!"

Doubtless, these dolphins would be guesting on the cetacean version of
Geraldo, if dolphins possessed TV's.

Seriously, this is a subject which I hope to get involved in; strange
for someone who can't swim a stroke and sinks like a rock, huh?

Blessings,
Janis C.


Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: pciszek@isis.cs.du.edu (Paul Ciszek)
Subject: Re: Warfare and women
Organization: University of Denver, Dept. of Math & Comp. Sci.
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 92 06:43:04 GMT


cortese@hepxvt.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese) writes:


>But, let's look at the facts.  FOr about 40,000 years prior to the last
>3,000 there were lots of matristic cultures.  And for about 40,000

How would anyone know?

>years prior to the last 3,000 there was no large-scale slaughter in the

How would anyone know?

>name of any god/dess, and no large-scale environmental destruction.

Bwahahahaha!  True, there weren't enough people to do a proper job of it,
but they certainly did try.  You have to admire people who could drive the
mastodon, Moa, and who knows what else to extinction without gunpowder.
The horse originated in the Americas, and I doubt that every last one of
them crossed the land bridge.  They did manage to survive until humans arrived.
And early farming methods are the worst from an ecological standpoint.
In wooded areas, the basic technique was to cut down a bunch of forest,
farm it for a year or two, then clear some more forest.  Native American
agriculture is thought to have made a big impact on the midwest in this
fashion.  I don't know when the Sahara got started; it might be within
your 3,000 year limit, but I doubt it.


>It's not that men are fucked-up, but when they try to deny the

Why, how veryvery KIND of you to say that.


--
Paul Ciszek, pciszek@nyx.cs.du.edu | Saddam Hussein still has a job; do you?
From: cortese@hepxvt.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
Subject: Re: Defects (was worship of greek gods)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: 15 Apr 92 20:42:08 GMT

In article <20219@castle.ed.ac.uk> egnr76@castle.ed.ac.uk (A Kashko) writes:
>In article <4462@radian.UUCP> markbr@radian.UUCP (markbr) writes:
>>In article <29E9D2BF.21742@noiro.acs.uci.edu>, cortese@hepxvt.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese) writes:
>>> And I'm beginning to wonder whether wearing these damned things and my
>>> glasses isn't just training my eyes to be crappy.  I'd love to not wear
>>> them for one year and see if my vision improved.
>>
>>I've seen a book with excercises to supposedly strengthen the eyes - never
>>did try it long enough to see if it worked.
>
>	I have a book called "Better sight without glasses" which says that
>wearing glasses makes temporary ey sight problems permanent. It is based on the Bates method, and also includes dietary advice. Some people get marvelous
>results from leaving their glasses of, but some get no result at all. I forget the author;s name.
>
>	Like you I tend to forget to remove my glasses.

If someone knows this, PLEASE POST IT!  My glasses are at least 1/4"
thick at the outside, and I don't relish being crutched on them my whole
life.

Blessings,
Janis C.
From: Bigfoot@f155.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Bigfoot)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Pagan Festival in June
Date: 3 Apr 92 10:03:00 GMT
Article-I.D.: mintir.702658249.F00004

WWOTE>say, I won't be able to go afterall. Am off to the Navy
WWOTE>Yet another Witch (albeit unitiated) in the armed forces.....

Welcome, there are others in our canoe club ;>

 * SLMR 2.1 * We all live in a yellow subroutine.
From: lip@s1.gov (Loren I. Petrich)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: warfare and women
Date: 13 Apr 92 23:34:32 GMT
Organization: Lawrence Livermore National Labs, Livermore CA

In article <70170@ut-emx.uucp> amadeus@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Susan Harwood Kaczmarczik) writes:
:
:I just thought I'd mention that the deities of slaughter and war in
:both the Irish and Welsh pantheons are female (the Morrigan in
:Ireland; and Aeron in Wales).  There are also many other aspects of
:these deities; the Morrigan includes Badb, Nemain, Macha, for
:instance.  And actually there were no male battle deities; gods like
:Lugh came much later on and were never accorded domain over war and
:battle.
:
:This whole retrospective attempt to make "women's societies" more
:peaceful and perfect than big bad evil patriarchy (with which I have
:quite a few problems, never fear) really doesn't seem to be useful.
:Of course, Utopian fantasies rarely are.
:
:Did mankind worship some form of goddess first?  Probably.  Was
:lineage traced through the mother for many centuries?  Undoubtedly.
:Have we gotten ourselves unbalanced as a species?  In my opinion, yes.
:But fantasizing about how wonderful things were before, *however* they
:were before, isn't going to change a damn thing.
:
:Goddess of war not make any sense.  Snort.

	Another possibility: these were originally goddesses of death,
inherited from the pre-Indo-European population. When war became a big
thing, they became goddesses of war.

	Marija Gimbutas discusses symbols of death in detail in her
books, and supports the change-of-function hypothesis for war
goddesses, giving Athena as an example.
From: aabdalla@pollux.usc.edu (Ahmed Abd-Allah)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Does the Bible have any contradictions
Date: 16 Apr 1992 15:52:32 -0700
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: pollux.usc.edu

Someone asked me if there are any contradictions in the Bible, and I
could not answer.  Can anyone point out some to me (if, in fact, they
do exist)?  I'm looking for two different types of contradictions, the
first being far more important:

1.  A self-contradiction:  some fact described in one place in the Bible
is described in unambiguously different, mutually exclusive terms in another 
place in the Bible.

2.  A contradiction with empirical fact/science:  some fact about the
natural world is described in the Bible which is unambiguously contrary to 
modern scientific knowledge.

Thanks in advance, though it would seem that not many of these exist 
seeing as the Bible has been around for centuries.  Please try and
email me any answers you may have (no matter how long or short) because
I will be posting this to a lot of newsgroups (too many to review for
replies).  Thanks again...

Email address: aabdalla@pollux.usc.edu

AAA
From: markbr@radian.UUCP (markbr)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Sacrifice
Summary: bitchy?
Date: 15 Apr 92 17:52:25 GMT
Organization: Radian Corp. Austin, TX

In article <29EB6400.482@noiro.acs.uci.edu>, cortese@hepxvt.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese) writes:
<stuff deleted>
> 
> Well, that's basically it.  I *told* you it was written in *AHEM* my
> typically "expressive" style -- i.e. strident and bitchy as all hell.

Speaking of semantics, why is it that you describe your style as "strident
and bitchy", where any alpha male (hell, betas and on downwards), if they had
written the same thing, would be describing it as "blunt and forceful"

> Have fun with this one,
> Janis

	mark
/*___________________________________________________________________________*
 *  1.     How *DARE* you attribute these opinions to anyone else!           *
 *  2.     Would *you* claim opinions like these if they *weren't your own?  *
 *					                                     *
 *		         Mark Silverdragon                                   *
 *					                                     *
 *          	       	markbr@radian                                        *
 *___________________________________________________________________________*/
Etymology, n.:
	Some early etymological scholars come up with derivations that
were hard for the public to believe.  The term "etymology" was formed
from the Latin "etus" ("eaten"), the root "mal" ("bad"), and "logy"
("study of").  It meant "the study of things that are hard to swallow."
		-- Mike Kellen
From: zimmer@lonestar.utsa.edu (Nancy A. Zimmerman)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Help on Beltane
Keywords: Beltane
Date: 15 Apr 92 17:33:27 GMT
Article-I.D.: ringer.1992Apr15.173327.19237
Distribution: alt.pagan
Organization: University of Texas at San Antonio

There are a few great books out there with details of both rituals and
beliefs to do with Beltane (and all generally accepted major pagan
holidays).  You might pick up a copy of "The Spiral Dance" by Starhawk
(This can generally be found in occult type or new-age bookstores.
Another book I like a lot is "Magical Rites from the Crystal Well", the
author of which escapes me at the moment, although if you can't find
it by a title search drop me a line via email and I can dig it up
and check.

It seems like there are more books out there now with solitaries more
in mind, but I don't have any of them.  Anyone else got any opinions?

Blessed Be! (and have a GREAT Beltane! ;)  )
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: rickheit@dragon (Erich Rickheit KSC)
Subject: Re: Sacrifice
Frankie: Nothing...why, do you think I should?
Organization: University of Lowell Computer Science, Lowell MA
Brad: What have you done with Janet
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1992 01:45:02 GMT

In article <loren.39@wmkt.wharton.upenn.edu> loren@wmkt.wharton.upenn.edu (Loren Miller) writes:
>Assuming that sacrifice is the killing or offering of living matter or a 
>votive representation thereof, what is the reason for it?

In a nutshell, the universe sacrifices itself for you. In return, you
demonstrate your willingness to sacrifice yourself for it.

The solar child willingly places himself in the role of the doomed king, so
the world will blossom and live again. The Green Man willingly gives his
body as fruit and grain. The Horned One is the hunted as well as the hunter,
killing himself for himself. Odin hangs himself on the Tree, Corn Woman is
buried to feed her grandchildren, Osiris is cut into a dozen pieces.

But you don't get something for nothing. To be worthy of the gods' sacrifice
for your life, you must be prepared to sacrifice of yourself for the gods'
lives. You show your willingness to do so by performing sacrifices,
returning the first fruit, giving the blood of food animals.

I'm honestly concerned that this question was asked. The sacrifice is
central to so many pagan myth cycles, so central to my understanding about
how we are spiritually and physically bound to the earth. Are there pagan
groups who don't have a sacrifice theme in their beliefs? How do they
reconcile this with a connected view of the world?

			yerz,
-- 
			Erich the hahaha Mad
rickheit@hawk.ulowell.edu     AT&T: 508 453 1753  : USnail : Erich Rickheit KSC
         "Here, my ice lolly's melted --          :          85 Gershom Ave, #2
          You really _are_ the devil!"            :          Lowell, MA 01854
From: egnr76@castle.ed.ac.uk (A Kashko)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Jesus was a pagan and lonely wiccians
Date: 13 Apr 92 14:03:15 GMT
Organization: Edinburgh University

In article <1992Apr12.052434.21230@nic.umass.edu> S7041551@deimos.ucc.umass.edu (Lew Stead) writes:
>Jesus was a Jew.  He, being part of the Jewish Tradition, was a monotheist.
>He was not a Pagan in any way shape or form.  While some of his social ideas
>certainly are in line with many of the social ideas of todays Pagans (and
>many are NOT), the same could be said of any religion or philosophy.
>
>If you look at his religious teachings, there's no mention of any sort of
>polytheism, feminine divinity, or anything else Pagan.  It's just a few bits
>of "be nice to one another" stuff that resonates with us -- and we don't have

	1) You may find mention of feminine divinity, or even polytheism, in the
gnostic gospels, which also claim to record Jesus' life. It's a long time since 
I read them: try Pagel's translation/commentary.

	2) It seems that while being Jewish he certianly did not fit confortably
into their tradition, being more person centred than cult centred. And most 
Christians fail to note that the although Jesus talked a lot about love, he
seemed to reserve most of hist for children and social outcasts
(reference: What Canst thou say: towards a quaker theology: Janet Scott)

	3) The idea of Christianity as a "be nice to one another" type of
religion doesn't square with the parable of the talents
" From him that has not shall be taken away even that which he has"

A most peculiar and harsh saying. Maybe Jesus was a Discordian or Satanist
(in the Maroney sense :) )
Newsgroups: alt.pagan