HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: peterh@netcom.com (Peter John Harrison)
Subject: Re: Period of the Society (Re: Wicca and the SCA)
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 92 03:52:50 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 

Beth.Appleton@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Beth Appleton) writes:

> JM> is part of the Society.  I've never heard anyone 
> JM> suggest that our period
> JM> goes as late as 1670.  
>Well, if someone says that the "cutoff" date is 1650, then 1670 is a 
> logical "slop"-date.  Personally, I've always figured that 1600 was the 
> end-date, with 1650 as a "slop"-date.... <stuff deleted>

In terms of Great Events that kind of naturally end eras, my own "end
date" runs to the time of Martin Luther, who brought into question
whether or not the Pope had an exclusive franchise with Christ/God.  If
you wanted to extend that a bit, I guess you could push the date out to
King Henery VIII's dismantling of the Catholic Church in England (the
first national break with The Church.

After that, Europe was much more concerned with issues of Christian 
fealty than they had been previously.  

That time also marks the beginning of the end for the Sword, Bows & Arrows,
and (to a lesser extent) the crossbow, as arabesques (single shot pistols)
came into use.

In your service,
Gregory of Malvern
============================================================================
Peter John Harrison
peterh@netcom.com

From: Tim@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Tim)
Sender: FredGate@ocitor.fidonet
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: the same-sex and pentacles threads
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 08:36:57

    Carolus Malvoix wrote:
 CP> In article <BuL1A8.Dr1@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca>

 CP> I once went to hear an old jewish woman speak, she survived one
 CP> of the death camps. She said at the end of her speech, that if
 CP> every jewish family had, instead of going meekly like sheep,
 CP> leapt at the throats of the soldiers who arrested them, that
 CP> the death Camps could have never happened.

 Result: those Jews with courage would have died there in the street rather
 than in one central location. They'd still be dead, though; and the rest
 would have wound up in the camps anyway. If you've ever noticed how the
 German military (and the Nazi paramilitary groups) arrested people, they
 just didn't send a couple cops to the door, they sent a squad of soldiers
 with machine guns and a "Make my day" attitude.

 CP> My advice to those who wish to wear the pentacle, is to do so.
 CP> If anyone gives you static, tell them politely but firmly
 CP> to "get stuffed". if they continue to hassle you, get less
 CP> polite and more firm. *Do not* allow them to dictate their
 CP> morals or view points to you.

 Good advice, in any case.

 CP> As for same sex consorts? This is more difficult. I suggest
 CP> that you find a fighter with a good chance at the crown,
 CP> sympathetic to your cause, and willing to raise a big fuss.

 Good luck finding somebody of that description.

 CP> When he or she wins, have him or her say "I am putting this
 CP> person (who is same sex) on the throne, then sit back and
 CP> watch the fur fly. My guess is that the poor fighter will
 CP> at minimum be banished. If a knight, probably disgraced.
 CP> However a very large and noisy protest will have been made,
 CP> keep doing that for long enough, and perhaps you can force
 CP> a referendum on the subject.

 I don't know how things work in your kingdom, but in Ansteorra potential
 contenders for crown are required to notify the Crown *in advance* of
 exactly who they are fighting for. This sort of Surprise Party trick will
 not work here; I suspect that it wouldn't work anywhere.

 CP> There is an ethical question here, though: What if the majority
 CP> of SCAdians opposes same sex consorts? I personally believe that
 CP> the majority of SCAdians don't give a tinkers damn, but *if* they
 CP> hate the idea, I'd say you were out of luck.

 I see very little attempt on anybody's part, but particularly those who
 are pushing the idea, to attempt to introduce a little democracy by
 finding out what most, or even many, people think about it. A curious
 anomaly.

    Tadhg

 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: aryk@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (A.J.S. Nusbacher)
Subject: Re: Financial reporting
Organization: University of Toronto -- Hart House
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 17:08:55 GMT

In article <1992Sep15.145609.1668@progress.com> schuldy@progress.COM (Mark Schuldenfrei) writes:
>This is the relevant sections of East Kingdom Law, on
>financial reporting. Is this what you meant?

[Big section of quoted laws and policies deleted]

>	Tibor
>Mark Schuldenfrei (schuldy@progress.com)

A reading of the extracts which Tibor has posted yields the following:

Many reports are required.  All the reports go upwards, culminating in the
following places:

	The Kindom's treasurer
	The Corporate treasurer
	The US Internal Revenue Service.

Now, all of this is just ducky.  All of those three units need to know
what's going on inside the bank accounts of SCA branches.

But what about Joe Scadian?  Doesn't he deserve to know how much his kingdom
takes in from the Big Demo at the Ren Fair, and where the money goes?  Mike
Squires has said that kingdoms are routinely underfunded, and that in his 
kingdom, officers do a lot of stuff on their own dime.  Is that a good thing?
Requiring officers to pay for their own bureaucracy is IMHO a great way to
control the growth of bureaucracy, but if important work needs money (royal
travel funds in kingdoms which do not provide clever accountants to calculate
tax write-offs, or in non-American kingdoms), then Joe and Jane Scadian should
know that too.

The Calontiri law that I referred to in a previous post requires a publication
in the kingdom newsletter, just like the one the Corporate treasurer publishes
in the TI.  Why does the treasurer of the East Kingdom have to tell his "boss"
at the corporate level, but not his thousands of bosses at the grass-roots
level?

Heck, in most local SCA groups, you local treasurer is not compelled to report
to the membership what is in the club bank account.  He has to tell the
Kingdom Seneschal, and probably the group seneschal, but nobody is required
to tell good ol' Joe and Jane.

Aryk Nusbacher

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: brandon@gauss.math.brown.edu (Joshua Brandon)
Subject: Re: Arrow number Two ...
Organization: Brown University Math Department
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 18:51:00 GMT

Aryk writes:

|> In article <716546298.F00007@blkcat.UUCP> Bob.Upson@f333.n142.z1.fidonet.org (Bob Upson) writes:
|> 
|> >In fairness, the SCA bans *all* blatantly religious symbols from heraldry as
|> >well as those deemed inherently 'offensive' (based on the world at large).
|> 
|> As some people have pointed out, this is not true.
[many good examples deleted]

The actual wording is, well, as follows (from the Rules for Submission):

>2.   Offensive Religious Symbolism - Magical or religious symbolism that is
>excessive or mocks the beliefs of others will not be registered.
>
>Magical or religious symbolism is not usually inherently offensive, but
>offends by context.  Both devotees and opponents of a particular religion
>may be offended by an excessive display of the symbols of that religion,
>for example, a Calvary cross surrounded by four Paschal Lambs and
>surmounted by a crown of thorns and a whip.  Similarly, although a Paschal
>Lamb is a standard heraldic charge, dismembering the lamb and surmounting
>it by a pentacle creates a context that could be offensive.

Clearly it's a judgement call in many cases.....

(It's been my impression that by and large, even the heralds generally don't know exactly
what is in the RfS.  The best ones have internalized whichever rules were in effect when
they first learned SCA heraldry, modified to some degree by changes since and a general
feeling for what's "right".  The best heralds I (personally) know can't get the "Simple
Armory" rule straight, and no one seems to like it once we do figure it out....  Er, maybe
I should have posted this to SCAHRLDS instead. :)

			---Simon Santiago de Cordoba, Bridge, EK
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: aryk@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (A.J.S. Nusbacher)
Subject: Pennsic Autocrat (was Re: Pennsic Land Allocation
Organization: University of Toronto -- Hart House
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 23:07:30 GMT

In article <1992Sep8.223357.13248@access.digex.com> corun@access.digex.com (Corun MacAnndra) writes:

>>The War Autocrat always seems to be miserably overworked, and the job always
>>seems to devolve on the same people.

>I agree with the first half of that, but please clarify the rest of your
>statment. Who are the "same people" you refer to?

Oh, how 'bout the Lynn-Ellis family?  Or that nice lady from Saline, Michigan?
Or Fast Eddie?

Mind you, I think it's great to have a cadre of experienced Pennsic experts
as well.

And then I said:

>>In the end, I think that the Pennsic autocrat ought to be salaried.

Corun replied:

>Here we're going to have a major disagreement. I think definitely not. If
>that happens we could be in big trouble. Where does the money come from?

We pay for porta-johns.  We pay for toilet cleaning.  We can pay for
management.

>If from volunteers, then we open up the War to more graft than the federal
>government. 

Nope.  From the War's revenue side.

>Also, how does paying a member conflict with the Society's
>non profit status with the IRA? I don't know the answer to that. 

While getting involved with Marxist-Leninist terrorism in Ireland might
be outside the purview of the SCA Inc., I think that if the SCA Inc. can
pay its President, its Treasurer, and a clerical assistant, then it can
pay the manager of one of its largest events.

>There has
>been some talk of hiring a professional security force, but so far nobody's
>taking it seriously. I think this is good. If we do that we take away a
>valuable lesson that more SCAdians need to learn. 

Depends on what you want the security force to do.  I don't want Joe
Scadian learning lessons on my dime, or with my vehicle, or my property.
If you want to train people in security, your local community college
probably has a good course.

Aryk Nusbacher
From: Joe.Bethancourt@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Joe Bethancourt)
Sender: FredGate@ocitor.fidonet
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period music, bad ge
Date: Mon, 07 Sep 1992 23:33:04

 -=> Helm said to All on 09-05-92  02:42 <=- 

 He> The thing is, period melody sounds different.  Much of it is modal
 He> or pentatonic, without a certain tonal center.  Melodies resolve
 He> stangely to the modern ear.  Modern melody, on the other hand,
 He> sounds "right" (for the most part...I'm not going to confound my
 He> own argument by mentioning someone like Ives...)  Modern melody
 He> is mostly characterized by equel temperment, harmonic progression,
 He> has a defined scale type, and (in the case of folk melody) usually
 He> resolves to a third, fifth, or tonic of the key.  

Do you mean Charles or Burl? ;-) Hehehe!

I guess I have something of an advantage here, in that I was raised in the
Ozark/Appalachian traditional music (no TV till I was 14....make your own
music!) with a fiddler for a grandfather and a mother who played self-taught
piano. I had -no- idea of minor keys until I was about 16 or so.....everything
was, at base, modal....so I can work quite well in Old Scale, and tend to
tune my lute that way on occasion. I know that I am very comfortable in
Dorian or Myxolydian modes! (The natural minor still bewitches me, tho...)

The modern equal-tempered scale still thrills me with the beauty of its'
harmonies.....

Ah, well!

                                                        -Ioseph of Locksley
                                                         Grumpy Laurel

 (and who wishes dearly that the SCA would learn the difference between
 Bards, Minstrels, Jongleurs and so forth......but who has resigned himself)


... The problem with Mongols is that there's never just ONE of them
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10

 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: habura@lib107.its.rpi.edu (Andrea Marie Habura)
Subject: Re: Pennsic prices
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy, NY
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 19:29:19 GMT

Hi, folks! No, I have not died. Mundane life did, however, intrude, in the form
of an important presentation I had to give last Friday. (I am no longer 
mumbling "benzoquinone" and "cellular slime mold" in my sleep, and I am now 
about two months from a Master's, so it all turned out well.)

Hal asks if anyone has tried holding classes in non-rental areas at Pennsic.

In a sense, it's still done. Guild meetings and suchlike are held in private
encampments (for example, I attended an Athena's Thimble (EK Embroiderers Guild)meeting at the Ostgardr encampment last year), but size restrictions prevent
the "regularly scheduled classes" from being held in such environments. 
Remember that Pennsic has space restrictions, and that the average SCA class 
seems to run to about 20 people. Even if the class is not space intensive
(say a class on 14th century history, rather than on use of period dyes), 
fitting 20 extra people in an encampment that already has fairly close-packed
inhabitants, and ensuring minimal disturbance for both residents and students,
is very difficult. Ensuring that everyone can get under cover if it`s raining
is even more so.
I used to teach at the Pennsic Pages School. Class size there was usually
between 12 and 20, with classes running all day, every day. Even with those
of us who camped in the school's encampment giving up as much space as we could, we still neede a small Grimm's tent and a roped-off area for dancing/whatnot
so we could avoid getting children in the embroidery/soup/firepit. Adults are
less kinetic, but they still need somewhere to sit.

Alison MacDermot

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: PA142548@utkvm1.utk.edu (T. Archer)
Subject: Re: multiple titles
Organization: University of Tennessee Division of Continuing Education
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 12:50:53 GMT

In article <715557838.F00007@blkcat.UUCP> Henry.Best@f120.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Henry Best) writes:
>I have heard Viscount Viscount Viscount Viscount Sir Sir Master Master 
>Edward referred to as "His Etceteracy".........
>                                                Henry

HA!  I'll have to remember that one!
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: corun@access.digex.com (Corun MacAnndra)
Subject: Not two knight, honey.
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1992 00:29:13 GMT

In article <1314@niktow.canisius.edu> salley@niktow.canisius.edu (David Salley) writes:

>I'm still curious, _two_ knightings??  Story please?  Inquiring minds want 
>to know.  ;-) ;-) ;-) 
>                                                       - Dagonell

The way I heard the story (and we all know how stories grow and change), is
that Edward was knighted twice by different kings.

In service,

-- 
===========================================================================
    Corun MacAnndra     |      But what if this hadn't been
  Dark Horde by birth   |        a rhetorical question?
    Moritu by choice    |                            C. Nelson
From: whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Bard of the Mists
Date: 15 Sep 92 18:02:52 GMT
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA

Last Saturday was the annual Mists "Bard of the Mists Feast and
Competition".  After a near crisis in the planning (and an excellent
last-minute rescue) the event went very well.

Selected from a field of nine competitors--nearly any of whom could
have won--the next Bard of the Mists will be Wander Riordan (mka
Jennifer Tifft).

	--Hal

        Hal Ravn, Province of the Mists, West Kingdom
        Wilson H. Heydt, Jr.,  Albany, CA 94706,  510/524-8321 (home)
-- 
Hal Heydt                    |    "Boycott Time-Warner"
Analyst, Pacific*Bell        |         --J. Danforth Quayle
510-823-5447                 |    "... kill all the lawyers."
whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM    |         --William Shakespeare
From: branwen@cerebus.ccc.amdahl.com (Karen Williams)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Iron chicken (was Re: bunny round ...)
Date: 8 Sep 92 18:34:58 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA

In article <Bu8sFw.Cs@acsu.buffalo.edu> ehrlich@acsu.buffalo.edu (Karen Ehrlich) writes:

>>"Iron chicken" is a defencive stance where the sword hand is above the head(tip
>>down crossing the top of the shield) to protect the head.

>	Interesting.  If I've correctly interpreted your description of the
>stance, I believe it is usually known in these parts as a "hanging guard"
>(presumably because the sword hangs, tip down, from the hand).  Why chicken?
>Is the hilt of the sword thought to resemble a chicken's comb?

Because the person who popularized the style (Radnor) has a
"screaming death chicken" on his shield. (It's actually a "split
chicken," a double-headed eagle with a sword down the middle.)

Branwen ferch Emrys
The Mists, the West

--
                                          Karen Williams
                                          branwen@cerebus.ras.amdahl.com
"Don't whine. Warrior women speak in a husky whisper."
  -- Brat Pack #3
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman)
Subject: Re: consort gender
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 17:55:55 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

Greetings from Arval!

Hossein argued the question of same-sex consorts from the following two
options: 

> 	1.  A society based on the documented practice of the Middle Ages,
> 	where the decision-rule was objective historical evidence;
> 	2.  A society based on anybody's arbitrary notion of what's fair,
> 	liberated, etc., where the decision-rule was either x's prejudices
> 	prevail or anything goes.

I'm sorry, Hossein, but it isn't that clear-cut.  That, I think, is the
point that Thom, Ailsa, and others have been making: There is a range of
possiblities between these extremes.  The Society clearly does neither of
these things: We do not rigidly adhere to medieval evidence in all things,
nor do we ignore medieval evidence in all things.  We choose.  We re-create
the parts of medieval history which appeal to us.  We add modern elements
as necessary to ensure our enjoyment of the game.  For example, we allow
women to fight.  Yes, there are handful of examples of female fighters in
medieval times, but that's hardly the point: Our re-creation is clearly
less authentic for _most_ periods because we allow women to fight.  I
believe this was exactly the point that Thom was trying to make when he
listed various inauthenticities that we routinely accept: We compromise
medieval history to fit our needs.  He never suggested that we should
abandon all reference to the medieval; I think that you are doing him the
same injustice by exaggerating his position that others have done by
labelling the SCA as "homophobic".  In designing our social structures, the
Society has necessarily compromised at every step.  Thom's question is
simply whether the romantic image of a man and woman as the royal couple is
so important as to override the obvious discomfort it causes some of our
members.

> If it wasn't done in the Middle Ages, we shouldn't do it at events nor
> license it in Corpora.  It's a matter of principle...

That's a good, strong principle, Hossein, but you've got to admit that it
is not a principle upon which the Society operates.  We are not a
re-enactment group.  We are not trying to re-create some medieval scene.
We are selectively re-creating a hodge-podge of medieval culture by
choosing the parts which appeal to us.  And we are inserting modern ideals
& conveniences when we feel they are necessary to our enjoyment of that
re-creation.  The question here is not whether or not same-sex consorts are
medieval, but who we want to choose to discomfort.  It is a tough choice;
turning it into dogma won't solve it.

===========================================================================
Arval Benicoeur                                       mittle@watson.ibm.com
From: whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Subject: Re: Pennsic prices
Reply-To: whheydt@PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 17:17:39 GMT

In article <mjc.716482098@NL.CS.CMU.EDU> mjc+@cs.cmu.edu (Monica Cellio) writes:
>I believe Hal said the cost for Beltane for a week was $25.  I'm curious
>about what that bought in the way of services and how developed the land
>was to begin with.

I believe the site owners got $1 per night per person.  The $25 paid
for privies abouve what were permanent on the site--and their regular
service (but that's another story . . .).  There is a shower building
on site.  There is a lake adjacent to the site--state owned, I think.
Off-site parking was paid for--though not where it was intended to be.

What more does one need?

	--Hal

        Hal Ravn, Province of the Mists, West Kingdom
        Wilson H. Heydt, Jr.,  Albany, CA 94706,  510/524-8321 (home)
-- 
Hal Heydt                    |    "Boycott Time-Warner"
Analyst, Pacific*Bell        |         --J. Danforth Quayle
510-823-5447                 |    "... kill all the lawyers."
whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM    |         --William Shakespeare
Newsgroups:   rec.org.sca
From: mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman)
Subject: Re: Question about membership
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 18:52:49 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

Greetings from Arval!  Bartholomew asked:

> I was wondering if there is a rule that I have to be a "member" of one
> local group (that I am in geographically) or can I be a member of another
> local group (where I like the people more). 
> 
> The main reason for my asking is that the second group is in need of
> national members for quota reasons.

The answer is that it depends.  Corpora imposes no residency requirements
for any type of participation or for holding any office.  Kingdom law may
say otherwise.  However, you can certainly join the normal activities of
any branch you wish.

I don't have the entire text to hand, but I believe that Corpora also does
not explicitly state that a branch must count its minimum membership from
within its formal boundaries.  The Steward's policies may say otherwise,
and your kingdom's laws may also have something to say about the question.
Eastern law does define the membership of a branch as members living within
the formal boundaries.

The best way to get a complete answer is to ask your kingdom's seneschal.

===========================================================================
Josh Mittleman (mittle@watson.ibm.com)
J2-C28 T.J. Watson Research Center, PO Box 704, Yorktown Heights, NY  10598