HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Steve Creps)
Subject: Re:      Re: Forgiveness of Sins, by Priests?
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 21:17:50 GMT


   Ian, you write, "I do not believe however that I need to confess my
Sin committed against YOU to a priest/pastor/elder. Its between you,
me and God. Likewise if I sin against God then its between Him and
ME."

   Did not Christ say that if you are hungry and I feed you, or naked
and I clothe you, I also feed and clothe Him?  It seems to follow,
then, that if I _sin_ against you, then I also sin against Christ.
If, therefore, I sin against Christ, then I should confess to Him, or
one empowered by Him to forgive sins (in His name), as in John 20:21-23.

--Steve

-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
Steve Creps, Indiana University
creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
From: creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Steve Creps)
Subject: Re:      Re: Anti-Catholicism: "Saul, Saul, why ..."
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 16:03:54 GMT

   Bernice, you write, "To test what Elizabeth has written is not
always Anti-Catholicism.  We are not supposed to believe everything
that is written."  I agree, but that's not why I objected to a couple
of the responses to Elizabeth's posting.  What I objected to were what
sounded to me like personal attacks on the original author and on
Elizabeth, as well as what I considered Catholic-bashing unrelated to
the subject at hand.  There have been some thoughtful and Christian
reponses opposing what was written -- for example, one I just read
from Frank Beckhaus.

   For the record, I, myself, am skeptical of the apparitions in
question (for one thing, I don't think they have been approved by the
Catholic Church), but do recognize the possibility of the Virgin Mary
appearing.  For example, her appearances at Fatima have been approved.
Any such approval, as has been explained already, depends on the
Church authorities putting them to just the kinds of tests Frank
listed in his posting.  The apparations must be consistent with the
Gospel.  Even if a given apparition is approved, no one is obligated
to believe in it.

--Steve

-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
Steve Creps, Indiana University
creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Sun, 23 Aug 1992 20:12:12 EST
From:         Kerry Stephenson <KSTE@PURCCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Anti-Catholicism: "Saul, Saul, why ..."
              23 Aug 1992 23:55:11 GMT from <creps@SILVER.UCS.INDIANA.EDU>

                   Steve says:

   The Pope is somewhat of an exception, in that the Holy Spirit
guarantees infaillibility in certain matters.  However, this
infallibility is limited to matters of faith and morals.  Nor is the
Pope guaranteed to teach truth; he is only prevented from teaching
falsity when speaking infallibly.

                   I don't want to misunderstand here.  Are you saying
                   that the Holy Spirit (at least with Catholics) is
                   exclusive to the Pope?  Don't other Catholics have
                   the Holy Spirit?  Also, when did the Church define
                   these areas of fallibility and infallibility and
                   why, and what is that doctrine based on?

                   Thanks.  Love INC,

                                     --Kerry
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Wed, 2 Sep 1992 12:26:55 CDT
From:         Jesse Carnes <NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Matt. 24...

Theresa ;

In grammatical/historical context, Jesus was giving the DISCIPLES a warning
... not us.
Further, this is a narrative not a didactic section and forming doctrine from
narratives is a precarious thing at best.
Would the disciples have understood a 2+ Milleniumhiatus before the parousia
stated in Scripture ... from what Jesus was saying?  I think not!
Exegesis is turned into eisogesis at that point if we hold to such a trans
historical form of hermeneutics.

Also, Jesus had earlier said that THAT generation was especially evil and
would be paid back for all the shed blood shed by others upon all of the
innocents from Abel to Zechariah.
This same generation is again mentioned in Matt 24 when Jesus states
that it would not pass away until ALL of the things stated in the chapter
would have occurred.




Jesse Carnes
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Envelope-to: CHRISTIA@ASUACAD.BITNET
X-VMS-To: IN%"CHRISTIA@ASUACAD.BITNET"
X-VMS-Cc: AZPAB
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Sun, 30 Aug 1992 11:41:05 -0700
From:         "Patrick Brooks" <AZPAB@ASUACVAX.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: new releases in Christian music

If I recall my world religions correctly, Nirvana is a state that
one achieves through the practice of Buddist disciplines.

MTV must have an EXTREMELY broad definition of Christianity :-)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Patrick Brooks                     | Of making many books there is no
Bitnet:   AZPAB.ASUACVAX           | end, and much study is a weariness
Internet: AZPAB.ACVAX.INRE.ASU.EDU | of the flesh.
                                   |   -Qoheleth
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Mon, 31 Aug 1992 13:39:09 MST
From:         Madge McBurney <ISPMOM@ASUACAD.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Interpretations, Proportion, and Shutting One's Mouth
              30 Aug 1992 21:02:04 GMT from <kilroy@GBORO.GLASSBORO.EDU>

On Sun, 30 Aug 1992 21:02:04 GMT A Guilty Bystander said:
>
>Mark Drake writes about people who favor allowing active homosexuals to
>participate in church -- often, these people will say to others that their
>ideas are out of date.  But (as he says) being out of date, or politically
>incorrect, is no reason to change a moral teaching, if the teaching is well
>supported from an agreed authority.
>
>Mr Drake writes:
>
>> All I hear is that I'm a terrible person 'cause I wont let people have
>> non-het, sexually active relationships.  This is reason enough to totally
>> change my view on the sinfulnes of an action?
>
>And the answer, of course, is no.
>
>However, you might consider holding your tongue, and worrying about YOUR
>sinfulness for a while.  In North Carolina, two Baptist churches, after much
>prayer, study, and consideration, voted to approve of homosexuality.  Lots of
>people are complaining in loud voices about how awful those two churches are.
>But none of the people complaining are talking about his own church, or any
>failings his group might have.

Darren,

Holding one's tongue is definitely an option for us all, but so is speaking
out against what one believes is wrong.  I need not be perfect to do this,
but I do need the love of Christ within me to direct my heart and my words.
The discussion of homosexuality on Christia offers us a chance to exchange
our different views on this, and at the same time, see and understand the
hurtful effects of saying something unloving to our neighbor.  If there is
sin involved with the homosexual experience, then there must be a best way
for us to hold firm in that Truth.  Likewise, if there is no sin involved, I
would certainly hope that others would be patient with the less enlightened.

I'm interested, not so much in respecting the PC of this issue, as I am in
learning the most loving way to communicate my beliefs to others.  Most of
us have family and/or friends who at one time or another have turned to us
with questions regarding what the Bible has to say on these delicate issues.
Christia can at least sensitize us enough so that we will desire to improve
our witness when called upon.  This is what makes a discussion like this so
important...at least for me.

And BTW, I believe that Mark Drake may have been misunderstood in this post.

Madge McBurney
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Sat, 29 Aug 1992 09:54:57 CST
From:         "William M. Jordan" <IF20159@LATECH.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: GOP Convention: The Setting

Since I have a definite bias in the matter, I do not really want to get
into the debate of whether President Bush's broken promise on new taxes
was also a lie.  However, there is one point that I do wish to make.

The point has been made that "everyone" knew we were going to have to
raise taxes in 1988, and if you say differently you must be not telling
the truth.  I would like to disagree with that.  There are many
prominent Senators and Representatives in the conservative wing of the
Republican Party who would assert:
       We did not need to raise taxes in 1988.
       We did not need to raise taxes in 1990.
       We do not need to raise taxes in 1992.

My point is that it is possible to be intelligent and involved in the
political process and to deny that we ever needed to raise taxes in the
last four years.  Many of the people who also said "no new taxes" in 1988
fought bitterly against the tax increase on the floor of the House in 1990.
Whether President Bush was one of these conservatives is for each of us
to decide on our own.

In Christ, Bill

William M. Jordan            Voice       (318) 257-4304
Mechanical & Industrial      FAX         (318) 257-2562
     Engineering Dept.       Bitnet      IF20159@latech.bitnet
Louisiana Tech University    Internet    jordan@engr.latech.edu
Ruston, LA 71272
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL0]
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Thu, 27 Aug 1992 16:19:14 EST
From:         Ian Williams <iwilliam@AU.ORACLE.COM>
Subject:      Clearing something up

Apparently in a couple of posts I INADVERTANTLY type DEMONination instead
of DENOMination.

This was a typo (I type rather quickly, but unfortunately my accuracy does not
match my speed).

It seems I have caused someone grief by this accident which was taken to
be deliberate. If anyone was offended by this mistake then you have my
apologies..


And now, back to our regular announcements...


---------------------+-------------+-----------------------------------------
Ian Williams         |    _--_|\   |      Internet: iwilliam@au.oracle.com
Oracle Systems       |   /      \  |	  Phone	  : +61 8 239 3900
Adelaide, Australia  |   \_.--*_/  |
                     |         v   |
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Wed, 26 Aug 1992 07:58:25 CDT
From:         Yvette Traylor <YST1@DCCCDBIT.BITNET>
Subject:      RE: Mary's other children.

> And, why did Mary go with Jesus in His preaching ? If she had other sons,
> she would have stayed with them in Nazareth.
>
> Shalom,
> Memo.

It is possible that they were grown men, since Jesus was 30 years old
when he began his ministry. Do Jewish mothers usually stay home with
their grown children? Just wondering..



   Yvette Traylor     "We are His people and the sheep of his pasture."
   Dallas County Community College District             Psalm 100:3
   Computer Programmer/Analyst  in  Dallas - Texas
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Tue, 1 Sep 1992 14:13:57 CDT
From:         Yvette Traylor <YST1@DCCCDBIT.BITNET>
Subject:      Eternity Game

Dear Christia, Has anyone's church or youth group ever played the
Eternity Game?


   Yvette Traylor     "We are His people and the sheep of his pasture."
   Dallas County Community College District             Psalm 100:3
   Computer Programmer/Analyst  in  Dallas - Texas
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Tue, 1 Sep 1992 10:32:32 CDT
From:         Yvette Traylor <YST1@DCCCDBIT.BITNET>
Subject:      prayer request

Carol,

No matter what happens with the roommate situation, God will
more than likely use Sarah to reach her roomie. We are his
ambassadors to the world..

   Yvette Traylor     "We are His people and the sheep of his pasture."
   Dallas County Community College District             Psalm 100:3
   Computer Programmer/Analyst  in  Dallas - Texas
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
From: anachem@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (mark gilstrap)
Subject: Re: Mary and sinlessness
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 22:10:46 GMT

In article <MAILQUEUE-101.920826123618.320@125law1.law.ucla.edu> FRANK@LAW.UCLA.EDU writes:
>>Now they have all kinds of Mary statures and stuff around the
>
>    That's part of the problem Protestants have with Apparitions of
>Mary, Jesus, etc.  It seems that it is always happening to Catholics
>(which isn't true.  Protestants receive apparitions they just don't
>like to admit it.  Too Catholic!) and once they vision has appeared

	Pagans see these same apparitions. In the past they have
	been interpreted in various other ways: brownies, leprechauns,
	smurfs (Germany), sprites, spirits of trees ...etc  Remember
	that demons can appear to be angels of light or even as Christ
	Himself in order to deceive. 

	The best evidence as to the nature of these apparitions is the
	doctrine which is taught. It is decidedly characteristic and
	unique to the roman experience of the latter times.

	On a journey to visit Lazarus, the Mother of God passed by a
	Greek peninsula on which is Mount Athos. Struck by the place, 
	she asked in prayer that it be her garden. Christ answered by
	shaking the pagan temples and shrines to the ground. This 
	Holy Mountain to this day is the center of Orthodox piety. On
	this holy mountain which is the garden of the Theotokos, we do
	not see these appearances of apparitions speaking heresy. How then
	can we accept the authenticity of the likes of tree spirits and such in
	Lubbock or Medugorje? 

	By the way, the Eastern Orthodox Church does not venerate
	statues either.
From: FRANK@LAW.UCLA.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: "The Seed" by Wiley
Date: 28 Aug 92 18:17:56 GMT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail v2.2 (R4).

Thanks Mark --

B.C. is truly a funny and very wise strip.  I always look forward to
Wiley's Christmas and Easter poems.

However this past Easter, much to my surprise -- NOT, our quite
politically correct Sunday Los Angeles Times did not print Wiley's
Easter message!!!  I later found it in the San Francisco Chronicle.
The LA Times gave just a very short one line notice that said
something like:  B.C. won't be printed this Sunday.  Surprisingly
enough they printed some other strip, I can't remember which, that
hadn't appeared in the Sunday Comics for years!!!

Oh, well.

Thanks again Mark.

Frank
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Envelope-to: CHRISTIA@ASUACAD.BITNET
X-VMS-To: CHRISTIA
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Thu, 3 Sep 1992 18:39:00 EST
From:         "Lauren H. Arango" <LHARANGO@OWUCOMCN.BITNET>
Subject:      Spong

Wolfgang writes,

>How can a man love and revere Scripture and then go on to say things as
>those cited by Bob? Either his citations or your impressions seem to be
>false.

I agree wholeheartedly.  And once again, I ask everyone *not* to judge
the Episcopal Church (or us Episcopalians) by Bishop Spong and what he
says and does.  He is not representative of the Episcopal Church or its
views.

In fact, Bishop Spong even provides the fodder for some jokes.  Case in
point:  I recently became engaged, and after announcing my engagement to
my fellow choir members, one person came up to me, chuckling.  He admitted
that all this time he thought that my fiance was my brother!  As we were
chuckling, someone else (who had overheard) leaned over and said, "Marrying
her brother?  No problem.... we'll just get Bishop Spong up here to do
the ceremony!"
                                                God's peace,
                                                Lauren
From: FACN34B@SAUPM00.BITNET (zane of dhahran)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Rome & Church
Date: 31 Aug 92 11:04:59 GMT
Organization: King Fahd University of Petroleum and Minerals, S.A.
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Acknowledge-To: <FACN34B@SAUPM00.BITNET>

Pretty soon, many (but not all by any means) of the Jesus family joined the
Jesus family association.  Not too long after that, people in the association
started to say that if you didn't belong to the Jesus family association, you
didn't belong to the Jesus family.  They started making rules for the associati
on that everyone had to follow.

Some of the Jesus family said, "what? have those fellows gone crazy?  I know th
ey are related to us, but they sure are starting to act like those Adam's
family guys!" Some of the family went to the picnics and reunions, but some
even got up disgusted and left.  Some never even went.  They couldn't figure ou
t why they had to belong to the association to be in the Jesus family.  They
knew who they were related to.  What was all the fuss about?

Pretty soon, some of the folks in the Jesus family association said, "This suck
s!" and left to form their own Jesus family association.  Some who never joined
any association said, "Hey, those guys are doing pretty well, maybe we should
form a family organization too."  And so, there were a bunch of little and some
not so little family organizations. But they were all one family, even though
they sometimes forgot it, and many times didn't act like it.

You can finish the story.         Peace brother, zane.
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Sun, 23 Aug 1992 01:43:50 EDT
Comments:     Converted from PROFS to RFC822 format by PUMP V2.2X
From:         Angela Zimmerman <AMZIMM01@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU>
Subject:      Religion in schools (again!)

Item Retrieval Assistant, DADS
Phone: 588-6757

Kerry,

  First, could you tell me a couple of specific examples where children
were punished for bringing/reading their bible in school?  Including
sources, etc. of course.

Second, why would reading scripture to me be infringing upon my religious
rights?  Well, if it was presented as religious history, it wouldn't.
But, if it's read to me every morning, especially followed by a prayer,
that would be infringing on my rights to not be a Christian and to not
have to be around when it's being practiced.  You will probably say
that I could just walk into the hallway while this is being done.  I
say, why should I have to?  I have just as much right to be in that room
as anyone else.  This probably isn't going to make much sense, but it is
pretty late and my mind is getting foggy.  In short, I go to school to
learn, not to practice religion.
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Thu, 3 Sep 1992 12:25:57 CDT
From:         NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Matthew 24

Dear Memo ;

Sorry ol' bean, but the "Abomination of Desolation" was an INTERNAL
atrocity that could only have been committed by someone or groups of someones
within the fabric of Judaism.
The city of Jerusalem itself, as the book of Revelation indicates explicitly,
was even ascribed with the title of "Sodom" and "Egypt" for her crimes,
especially for killing tthe messiah.


Jesse Carnes
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Organization: Samford University
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Wed, 26 Aug 1992 14:59:31 CDT
From:         Renee Autry <SRAUTRY@SAMFORD.BITNET>
Subject:      Concerned Women for America

Does anyone have information on the group Concerned Women for America?

If so, please e-mail me at the following address - SRAutry@Samford

Thanks,

Renee
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Fri, 4 Sep 1992 08:08:51 CDT
From:         Jesse Carnes <NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Second parousia in the past?
              3 Sep 1992 19:17:30 GMT from <anachem@BRONZE.UCS.INDIANA.EDU>

Dear Mark ;

Despite what it has believed, the RC organization, nor any other group
has any REAL authority in these matters.
The Written Word of God is our Authority ... sola scriptura.
The Word says that Christ will return again.  These are pre-A.D. 70
N.T. books.
Speaking in terms of Logic, just because the Word says Christ will come
again does NOT necessarily mean that its imminence is 20-plus centuries
beyond the N.T. Also, it does not necessarily prohibit another Parousia.
To have another Parousia beyond possibility, the Word would have to say
so, necessarily, explicitly or by direct implication of explicit didactic
passages.




Jesse Carnes
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Delivery-Notice:  SMTP MAIL FROM does not correspond to sender.
X-Mailer: QuickMail/SMTP interface.
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Tue, 1 Sep 1992 13:48:55 EDT
From:         Leo W <Leo_W@QM.CIRCA.UFL.EDU>
Subject:      Re>Absolution
X-To:         Christia <christia@asuvm.inre.asu.edu>

Wolfgang wrote:
"This would mean that if I confess to God I am not forgiven, because no
priest gave the absolution. How then can Protestants be forgiven? - If
on the other hand God forgives non-Catholics that confess to Him without
a priest giving the absolution, then the essential act would indeed be
confession to God - and the priest would indeed just declare the fact
that God has already forgiven the sins. I don't get these two statements
together."

Marty earlier wrote: "The Catholic and Orthodox belief is that Christ has
chosen to make His forgiveness available through the ministry of His priests."

A point often missed by non-Catholics when reading statements intended for
Catholic consumption is:

"We do not deny that God may be ready to forgive the sins of those non-Catholic
Christians who are in good faith and are sorry for their sins" (Sullivan, "The
Externals of the Catholic Church," p. 61).

A parallel would be Jews and Gentiles in the dispensation of the Law.  Israel
had certain God-given exclusive privileges and responsibilities that the other
nations did not have.  The Catholics believe they have a special dispensation
from God which other Christians do not have, making God's grace available
through various exclusive channels.  Just as Israel's special dispensation did
not exclude Gentiles from the grace of God in a general sense, neither do
Catholics believe their special dispensation excludes others from His grace.
They only believe they have additional, exclusive and special means of
acquiring grace and merit in harmony with their calling.  In other words, they
believe they have dispensational advantage or privilege with its
responsibility, not doctrinal.

Yours in Christ Jesus,
Leo
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Thu, 3 Sep 1992 09:42:13 EST
From:         Kerry Stephenson <KSTE@PURCCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      question

Hi all:

I would like to know where the person who posted the Pat Robertson quote
obtained it.  The reason I ask is that both Time and Newsweek chose
to print *only* that portion of the piece we have already seen here.
It seems to me that there is clearly more than a coinicidence here,
and that Time and Newsweek are (as usual) letting someone else
do their work for them.

Thanks.

Love INC,
         --Kerry
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Sun, 30 Aug 1992 17:18:21 EDT
From:         JEK@NIHCU.BITNET
Subject:      Bible Quiz cross-posted by Darren.

Darren Provine (aka kilroy, aka Dr N's S), has forwarded a BIBLE
QUIZ to the list. If everyone posts his answers to CHRISTIA,
together with a request for more information on the answers he does
not know, the list will be flooded, there will be a great deal of
duplication, and those who want to take the test as a closed-book
test will be thwarted.

I accordingly intend not to post a public reply. I will either mail
my reply privately to Darren or refrain from replying at all.  I
suggest that others do likewise.  Darren then, in response to
overwhelming public demand, will have the task of compiling a
detailed table of the various answers, and the number of each,
received for each question. And serves him right!

 Yours,
 James Kiefer
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU