From: hans@iesd.auc.dk (Hans Huttel)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african.american
Subject: Re: Death Penalty, for or against?
Date: 7 Oct 92 15:26:35 GMT
	<HANS.92Oct6120249@ravn.iesd.auc.dk> <Bvq5FA.BoE@NCoast.ORG>
Followup-To: soc.culture.african.american
Organization: Mathematics and Computer Science, Aalborg University


In article <Bvq5FA.BoE@NCoast.ORG> cmort@NCoast.ORG (Christopher
Morton) writes:

[ I wrote: ]
>> Let me repeat my rhetorical question: Why shouldn't all criminals in
>> the U.S. be executed ? Surely crime should be punished, and (by the
>> quoted argument) killing a criminal will certainly prevent him/her
>> from being raped or murdered in prison.
>
> For the same reason that you don't amputate to treat a paper cut.  It's a
> complete nonsequitor.  Do you equate mass murder and check forgery?  Do you
> consider Charles Manson and a homeless person who steals a pack of pimento
> loaf moral equals?

Of course not. But a major argument for the death penalty seems to be
that it prevents recidivism. Another argument for the death penalty is
that imprisonment can be dangerous to the prisoner. Thus imposing the
death penalty for any crime would eliminate these problem altogether.
Nobody would dream of e.g. shoplifting or drunk driving if the
consequences were fatal. 

In certain countries such as Pakistan, petty theft is punishable with
amputation of a hand. 

>> (An aside: Denmark has a maximum security mental hospital for
>> extremely dangerous criminal patients. Such people are kept in
>> solitary confinement.)
>
> Isn't that cruel and unusual?  I'll bet the ACLU thinks so.

But... I have nothing whatsoever to do with the ACLU, which is a U.S.
organization. Having little knowledge of what it stands for, I feel no
urge to defend or attack it.

>> There are a number of mentally retarded people on death row in the
>> U.S., some of them African-American. I would urge all netters to read
>> the Amnesty International report on capital punishment in the U.S. for
>> more details on this.
>
> And did they kill people in cold blood?

How do we know that these people actually killed anyone ? And even if
we did, what would "in cold blood" mean if you were an illiterate
18-year old man with the intelligence of a 4-year old ? I cannot
subscribe to the idea that "criminal = evil" (see below.) Of course
that by no means implies that "criminal = good" in my vocabulary.

>> But how do we know ? What constitutes absence of doubt ? For several
>> years, virtually nobody in Britain had any doubts that the Guildford
>> Four and the Birmingham Six were IRA terrorists. 
>
> Numerous eye witnesses?  Is there ANY doubt that Hennard shot up the Luby's
> cafeteria in Killeen, Texas?  There's NO doubt that Alton Coleman went on a 
> killing and child molestation spree across the midwest.  In fact there was
> CONSIDERABLE doubt regarding the actions of the British police.

Certainly not initially - it took a full 15 years before the Guildford
Four and the Birmingham Six were finally acquitted. In fact, the
courts were extremely reluctant to reopen the cases. The government
officially stated that there was no doubt whatsoever. The first appeal
against the conviction of the Birmingham Six was rejected.

--

>> The death penalty can be used for political ends. Think of South
>> Africa or China, just to name two modern-day examples. Of course this
>> is almost always denied by the regimes who use this practice - the
>> people on death row are... criminals.
>
> So can imprisonment.  Do you want to abolish that too?  What should the fines
> for rape and murder be?

Nobody here is talking about fines - certainly not yours truly.
Moreover, what has rape and murder got to do with dictatorships using
the death penalty as an instrument of oppression ?

>> To sum up: The death penalty is a quick fix that solves no problems.
>
> Wrong.  The death penalty is a PERMANENT fix to the problem of recidivism by
> murderers.  Can you name an excuted murderer who has subsequently killed?

I did not make myself clear. The death penalty is a quick fix to a
problem in society, namely crime. Does it make crime go away ? 

To be more precise:

Has the death penalty done anything to lower the crime rate in those
parts of the world where it has been introduced ? Has the crime rate
gone up in the parts of the world where it has been abolished ?

I would actually like to see some statistics. Can anyone ouy there
provide us with some detailed figures ?

>> If the penal system isn't fair and unprejudiced, innocent people will
>> lose their lives. In a country with social inequalities, the death
>> penalty will affect some groups of people disproportionately. It can
>> be used _against_ these groups of people. Finally, the death penalty
>> is irreversible. What good is aquittal once you are dead?
>
> So, it's ok to have a biased justice system so long as you don't have a death
> penalty?
>
> What good is 20 life sentences to somebody who continues to kill?

I still haven't understood this. I admit to being a sentimental
European, but: How can you kill people if you are behind bars ? (It
doesn't happen here in Denmark.)

> Another good solution would be to recognize that some people are just BAD.
> Sometimes they do things that deserve death.

The above sums up a opinion that Christopher Morton and all other
proponents of the death penalty seem to share, namely that crime
exists simply because people are _evil_. I strongly disagree with
this. I believe that there is a better and more correct explanation:
that crime is a the product of many different factors, among these
problems in society such as social inequalities.

When will we all realize that killing each other doesn't solve any
problems ?



- Hans (a sentimental European)
--
Hans H{\"u}ttel                          - hans@iesd.auc.dk  
Mathematics and Computer Science
Aalborg University, Fredrik Bajersvej 7E,
9220 Aalborg, DENMARK                     Ad slagne veje ?
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african.american