From: davidba@carmel.technion.ac.il (David Ben_Ami)
Subject: Re: Religion and Politics (was: Re: CLINTON SPEECH TEXT...)
Organization: Technion, Israel Inst. of Technology
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1992 08:30:57 GMT

In article <1992Sep3.214547.27192@midway.uchicago.edu> rivk@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>In article <3717@copper.Denver.Colorado.EDU> aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Anisa Alnoor Aldoubosh) writes:
>>In article <1992Sep2.203516.1745@midway.uchicago.edu> rivk@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>>>In article <3694@copper.Denver.Colorado.EDU> aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Anisa Alnoor Aldoubosh) writes:
>>>
>>>>And is the political concept of Zionism?  Why make historical
>>claims based on Biblical testament then?
>>>
>>>Much of the Bible is non-religious history, and it's on that which
>>secular Zionism bases its claims, such as are taken from the Bible
>>at all.
>>
>>Can you elaborate here?  Are not the elements of Zionism based on
>>the concepts of the Old Testament?  We know that Zionism is a
>>nationalistic movement more so than religious one, but aren't the
>>claims based on religion?
>
>No. There are religious Zionists, but they're in the minority. Basically,
>the Zionist claim to the land are based on the same premises on which you
>base your claim -- and part of what makes the entire issue so tragic is
>that both claims have validity -- that being that we, as a nation, lived
>there at our origin and left involuntarily; hence should be allowed back.
>Certain sections of the Bible are among the sources used to document the
>fact that we lived there, but there are other sources from the time that
>say the same thing. And the sections in question aren't religious-based;
>they're roughly the equivalent of Thucydides. Not everything in the Bible
>is about religion; some of it is the history of the Jewish nation, and it's
>that we look to for our reference.

Nora's presenattion of the relatiopnship between Zionism and the Bible
is fairly accurate. I want to add that in the 1890s the Jews of Central
and Eastern Europe felt that they have HUGE problems in their countries:
Persecutions and Antisemitism were abundant above and beneath the ground
, economic stress in Eastern Europe etc. Groups of Jews began to dream
of an independent state that will resurrect the Jewish masses in various
countries from their misery. The Jews were united by tradition/religion
(many of them were secular) and a feeling of strangers in their own
homelands. Zionism was founded in order to solve the pressing problems
of the Jews worldwide in the form of Jewish State.

There were mant debates on the location of the wanted state. The British
offered Uganda and Herzl himslef favored the idea of Jewish state in Uganda.
But the majority of Jews rejected this idea. They decided that Palestine 
then under Turkish rule - the ancient homeland of Zion is the only fitting
homeland - this is the only land that really belongs to the Jews and this
is the land that they will be ready to fight for if needed.
The Bible is the basis for the traditional bonding of Jews into this
particular land, the motive for Zionism was the plight of Jews around
the world which culminated in the Holocaust. The reason of choice of
Palestine instead of Uganda for example is that History and tradition 
bonds us to it.

Although Plaestine was very arid and full of swamps and dunes - Jews 
began to immigrate and buu land and settle the country. The local popu-
lation were reagarded as harmless and not significant. [There was no
claim whatsoever of Arabs to this land in the past] According to the 
Zionist plan the Arabs were going to be treated as the Jews of the US
are treated today. 

Only after the 1929 riots did Zionsits notice that the Arab might be
a trouble. The Arabs began to vehemently reject the Jews and in the
heat of conflict atrocities and injustices were inflicted on both sides.

I agree that the Arab should have full citizenship and rights in the 
Jewish states as Jews are getting hospitality in Christian and Muslim 
countries (I mean the better examples of course - US, Ottoman inth
1500s etc.)
This cannot be done when Arabs are violently rejecting the concept of a
Jewish state and invent "Palestinian Arab" nation to refute Israel
legitimacy and hold on the country.

Paraphrasing on a French stateman: " The Arabs have all the rights 
as individuals and none as a Nation" [He said it about the Jews in 
France]. 

>>Anisa
>
>	-Nora
>
>
>--
>"Light one candle for those who are suffering pain we learned so long ago..."
>


-- 
=============================================================================
  David Ben-Ami (irc: bigdav)      |   "I can resist anything but Temptation"
  s2780369@Techst02.Technion.Ac.Il |       Oscar Wilde
  davidba@Carmel.Technion.Ac.Il  davidba@Moav.Techniona.Ac.Il
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