From: StarOwl@uiuc.edu (StarOwl)
Subject: Re: THE CLINTON DOCTRINE
Organization: Actuarial Science Program at UIUC
Reply-To: StarOwl@uiuc.edu
Distribution: usa
Keywords: significant words from a document used as an index to content
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Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1992 01:39:48 GMT
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Now this is strange.  I think we are somewhat in agreement, and yet
we are flaming each other.  Ah, the joys of USENET!  ;)

wag5@quads.uchicago.edu (john peter wagner) writes:
: StarOwl@uiuc.edu writes:
: >wag5@quads.uchicago.edu (john peter wagner) writes:
: >
: >: >>|> Democracies do not go to war with one another.
: >: >>Bullshit
: >: >Name two.
: >: 	Athens and Sparta, two city-states with perhaps the greatest
: >: eligible voter turnout ever known to Democracy, warred against each other.
: >: Rome and the Germanic tribes, tribes led by Democratically-elected leaders
: >: went to war.
: >
: >In each of these cases, just how much of the population was allowed to vote.
: >I doubt that women were allowed to vote, and I really doubt that slaves
: >were allowed to vote.

[Several points which I agree with to a large extent elided]

: Sparta and Athens had MORE INVOLVED DEMOCRACIES than
: OURS in AMERICA, which is simply a REPUBLIC with DEMOCRATICALLY-ELECTED
: REPRESENTATIVES AT BEST. In Greece the voters had REAL responsibility.
: WE DO NOT HAVE A 'TRUE' DEMOCRACY. OUR 'DEMOCRACY' IS IN FACT LESS
: OF A DEMOCRACY THAN THE ATHENIAN OR SPARTAN POLIS'.

I agree.  The point I was disagreeing with above was that these are
really examples of democracies warring against each other.  None
of the entities that you named were true democracies.  Athens does
come close, I'll admit.  Sparta was an odd mixture of monarchy, 
oligarchy, and democracy; Sparta is NOT an example of a true democracy.
Therefore Sparta vs. Athens is not an example of democracies warring
against each other.  Rome was not a democracy; at best it was a
republic.  At worst it was an empire.  Rome vs. the Germanic
tribes therefore is not an example of two democracies warring against
each other.

I submit that the claim, democracies do not go to war against
one another, is true today by default.  Can you name two democracies
currently in existence?  

The US is NOT a democracy.  It pretends to be a democratic republic.
The Framers of the Constitution shied away from several democratic
principles because they did not think a true democracy would be
a good thing.  The populous is too easily swayed by short-term
events (cf. the unwashed masses and the media today) to be able
to work for the long-term good of the country.  The Framers sought
to create "tiers" of government above the level of the People.
The government should be influenced to a certain extent by the
will of the People, but the people with authority should be
clear headed enough to continue to work for the good of the country,
even though that might be unpopular in the short run.

The people making the real decisions should be those with a vested
interest, and those who are well-informed about the choices they
have to make on behalf of their constituents.  

I agree that this country's voters leave much to be desired.  Most of
the people in this country are unwilling to take the time to be
at least moderately informed about the state of the country and
the backgrounds and positions of the candidates for office.  They
are willing to rely on the media, which we all know is frequently
biased or is in search of tabloid-like "news" stories to improve
their ratings.  However, what do you expect?  The "power base" of
this country shifted from the States to the national level
in the period between the War Between the States and the Great
Depression.  Now the distant government in Washington is making
decisions that really should be made at the State level, where the
people most likely to be affected by those decisions have better
representation among the decision-makers.

I believe that this country was based on some pretty good ideas.
I just wish that those "pretty good ideas" could be reflected in
the government of today.

[More comments which I pretty much agree with elided.]

--
Michael Adams (aka StarOwl)	 		"Republicans understand the
Internet:  StarOwl@uiuc.edu			 importance of bondage between
Bitnet:    FREE1217@UIUCVMD			 parent and child."
Anonymous: wi.5467@n7kbt.rain.com			-- Dan Quayle
UUCP:      ...!uiucuxc!uiuc.edu!StarOwl                                    

Marrou/Lord in '92



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