From: tcbruno@athena.mit.edu (Tom Bruno)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.dnd
Subject: Re: Anecdotes... Death... How come?
Date: 14 Aug 92 15:47:40 GMT
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology

In article <4709@blue.cis.pitt.edu.UUCP> seawasp@vm2.cis.pitt.edu (Sea Wasp) writes:
>In article <BsxoA4.FHH@acsu.buffalo.edu> swann@acsu.buffalo.edu (Stephen Swann) writes:
>>I'm not familiar with Arduin.  In all the roleplaying systems I'm
>>familiar with, being 12th level is pretty powerful, being 16th level
>>is WAY powerful, and being more than 20th level is essentially unheard
>>of except in gods, demigods and soon-to-be-gods.
>
>	Well, in RoleMaster, 20th is powerful, but not even CLOSE to godly.
>As an example, the Middle-Earth world has stats on things like Balrogs,
>Sauron, and so on... and I believe that  Sauron was up somewhere in the
>several hundreds levels region. (I have to get myself a copy of Lords of
>Middle Earth). I do know that an entire party of 20th level RoleMaster
>characters would get themselves squashed by a balrog unless they got
>lucky as sin.
>
>	In Arduin, which is very similar to the D&D/AD&D milieu, the powers
>tend to be just nastier overall. "Caliban" and "Death Heart", modules 
>published for  Arduin, are good examples. They say "levels 8+", but
>a party of AD&D 8th levelers would be diced, sliced, pureed, chopped,
>and formed into neat edible squares. I tend to double levels required in
>Arduin. Their character classes have tables going up from level 1 to level
>100 or so, so it's supported all the way through.
>
>
>>I've been playing since 1978, and GMing since 1979.  I've had one
>>continuously running (modified AD&D) campaign for that whole period of
>>time.  Back when we used to play on a regular basis (i.e. between 6
>>and 10 hours/week), the characters advanced at a fairly steady rate of
>>about 1 level every 6 to 8 months.  Because our playing time has been
>>sharply curtailed over the last several years, the characters are just
>>now getting to be about 12th and 13th level.
>>
>>I don't know what gaming systems you use, but in AD&D, if I see any
>>character over 18th level, I look -real close- to see if he looks
>>legit (i.e. if he earned his powers in a reasonable, non-Monty Haul
>>campaign), and if I see a character over 25th level, I just start
>>laughing...
>
>	Well, you're a low-power or low-experience giver. That's cool, lots
>of nice games can be had there. I've been in a lot of games where that
>was not the case; in my present campaign, an entire party just retired with
>their characters around 12-13th level after a year and a half of play.
>If you had lots of interesting things to do, I wouldn't have a problem
>myself with taking 6-8 months between levels, but under most GMs I've
>seen that would be an intolerably slow moving game. I like to have my
>characters involved in significant events. I like to think that I might
>get to use a third or fourth or even fifth level spell before I graduate.
>
>	I and my players like the epic fantasy feel; superior characters,
>deadly risks, diabolical villains, cataclysmic battles.
>
>	You also seem to assume that anyone REALLY works a character up
>to 25+ level. I was playing NPCs with other GMs. You don't work Sauron
>up from first level, you say "hmm. Dark Lord of Middle Earth. Gotta be
>high level." and give him one.
>
>	The highest level "worked him up from nothing" character I have
>is at present 14th heading for 15th (in the AD&D system; in systems that 
>don't use that asinine exponential advancement chart, I've gotten to
>20th or 25th. (In systems that don't use levels, of course, it's an
>entirely different ball of wax).
>
>

It's interesting.  Personally, I like to see relatively slow advancement,
but nothing on the order of only a level per year-- the exact rate has always
depended on the 'feel' of the game, as you say.  However, it appears that
slow advancement is less canonical than 'Monty Haul' extravagances.  Have you
ever DM'ed a campiagn module?  (Like Temple of Elemental Evil?)  The characters
go in at first level, and are EXPECTED to come out at at least eighth level!
(I mean, they battle a demon-queen in the end!)  And unlike most other 
'campaigns,'  the Temple is nothing but a glorified dungeon.  A party that I
DM'ed had half of it cleared out after two weeks of solid gaming.  They usually
went up a level every night!  And of course, the temple leads right into the
'Slave-Lords' mega-module, and that into the 'Queen of Spiders' campaign.  
You could play all three of these in a few months time, and emerge victorious
godlings, on the order of 15th-20th level characters.  And this is 'legit'!

I guess all I'm trying to say is that there's nothing munchkin about soaring
in levels, provided that characters DID actually earn them.  What happens in
my games is usually a burst of advancement, and then a lazy stretch of urban
role-playing and mini-adventures, and then aanother epic quest, et cetera.
Pacing depends a lot on the nature of your party-- it's gonna be hard to keep
a cap on a group of 'dragon-hunters,' whereas a bard, two thieves, and a druid
might not reach 4th-level until 1996.  (!)


>                                 Sea Wasp
>                                   /^\
>                                   ;;;

tom bruno
archaeology
mit
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.dnd