From: clare@nynexst.com (Clare Chu)
Subject: Re: Why are we different?
Organization: Nynex Science and Technology
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 93 14:56:11 GMT

In article <1i844cINN5l1@agate.berkeley.edu> bhchan@soda.berkeley.edu (Billy H. Chan) writes:
>In article <1993Jan4.005223.14665@beaver.cs.washington.edu> paulko@wolf.cs.washington.edu (Paul Ko) writes:
> >Charles Roten (roten@cuba.gsfc.nasa.gov) wrote:
> >: whether in Japan, Taiwan, or Beijing, [schools] come out looking 
> >:_MUCH_ superior to the American system.  
>>
> >At what cost? I don't know about Taiwan or Beijing, but the Japanese public
> >school system isn't nearly as good as many seem to think. 
> >
> >Rote memorization, cram school, suicide... it's all way too intense.
> >A lot of Japanese kids just don't get many chances to 'have fun' and 
> >'be kids'. Many are pushed onto the "shushoku" train from day one, and
> >they aren't enjoying it.
> >
> >I seriously question the effectiveness of the Japanese school system.
> >
> >
> >Paul Ko.
>
>Paul (and others), let me ask you this:
>	What IS the goal of a school system?
>If the goal of the school system is to teach kids how to learn, how
>to do well on tests, how to survive, I think you should rethink your
>question on the "effectiveness"ness of the school system.
>Is a school supposed to teach kids how to "Have fun"?
>Is a school supposed to teach kids how to "be kids"?

  Yes.  I think kids should have fun in school.  I don't think schools
  have to teach fun, but should allow kids to have fun and be kids.
  Schools are for socializing kids into the mainstream and part
  of American ideals is "life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness."
  If schools drive kids to suicide, then in my opinion, I wouldn't
  send my kids there.

  Part of survival is to have fun.  If you don't have fun, then
  you won't do well in your life.  You won't be productive, you'll
  have personal problems that can interfere with your job, you'll
  have addiction problems from being driven so hard.  The goal of
  the Japanese school system is to turn out workers for their industrial/
  financial machine with little care for the worker's happiness or
  quality of life.  Quality of life is not necessarily measured by
  how much money you have, by the way.
>
>In my point of view (ie. IMHO) schools are here to teach someone
>(kid, adult, whomever) a subject or a set of different subjects.

  And some of the subjects include "recreation and sports."

[  children don't have fun in HK school system. ]
>The only subject I fail to see a place in school is "FUN".  
>But since the question is on effectiveness, I think Paul just has
>a different image of what school is than I do.

  Sure does.  I suppose you didn't have any sports events, dances,
  clubs, and ski trips at your school.  Then you wonder why people
  raised in Asian School systems can't get dates!
>
>But back to the original EFFECTIVENESS question.
>My point: Asian system IS effective in teaching a few general "rules"
>	of life.  1) It's a dog eat dog world.  2) you're not here to
>	have fun, until you're rich enough to afford to have fun.

  Your values, not everyones.  No wonder they stereotype "us"
  as materialistic!  The vast majority will never be "rich enough"
  to have fun.  It's a vicious cycle.  You can never be too rich
  (or too thin)!

>	3) Work hard, learn the system, and you'll go far.  4) Those
>	who are most successful are those who a) learned how to learn
>	or b) are super geniuses.... so that most of the time, only 
>	those who learned to deal with the system succeed. (I don't
>	believe Asians' are SuperGeniuses all)

  How do you measure success?  The number of BMWs or the amount of
  fun you have?

>and trains children how to:
>	1) memorize every single thing  (some occupations needs good
>		memory)

  And some occupations require creativity, something that rote
  memorization doesn't encourage.

>	2) learn how to learn effectively/efficiently

  only by memorizing.

>	3) decide what's more important to them in the long run

  Money, money, money, money, money.

>	4) think about the future, not just dream away

  future of money, money, money, money.  No dreams, just money.
  What if Martin Luther King hadn't had any dreams?  Just a desire for
  money.
>	5) take a sh*tload of stress and still survive

  Not everyone survives.
>American system IS effective in teaching a child that:
>	1) You can have fun and succeed at the same time.
>	2) Don't be such a stressball, take a valium.  (j/k)
>	2) Rote memorization is not necessary to get ahead in life.
>	3) You can hve as much stress as you want, but we won't
>		force you to stress out.
>	4) You can be a child until you go to college, when it gets
>		a bit tougher.
>
>Dare I say that children in AmericanSchools have more fun, but children
>who went to an AsianSystemSchool have a better idea of what to expect
>in the REAL WORLD.... seems like Asian Children get much less oportunity

  They do?  Which real world are you talking about?  The American real
  world, or the Asian real world?  Remember, schools are to socialize
  citizens into the prevailing culture.

>to be immature than American Children just because of the schooling they
>receive.... stress does a lot to a child's maturity.... 

  I don't know about that.
>just my $0.001  (not even a penny's worth)
>-- 
>-----------------------------------------------------------------
>*	Billy H. Chan		<bhchan@ocf.berkeley.edu> 	*
>*	Lost at Cal!!!   	<bhchan@soda.berkeley.edu>	*
>-----------------------------------------------------------------


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