HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jhpb@sarto.budd-lake.nj.us (Joseph H. Buehler)
Subject: Re: Kneeling in church (how long a tradition?)
Organization: none
	<1992Sep25.184500.20935@elroy.jpl.nasa.gov>
	<1992Sep26.040014.17512@cs.tulane.edu>
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1992 14:08:58 GMT

In article <1992Sep26.040014.17512@cs.tulane.edu> lang@cs.tulane.edu (Raymond Lang) writes:

   How long has it been since Catholic churches have even had pews and
   kneelers?  My understanding (which may be a misconception) is that
   we got the idea from the protestants, and that Catholic churches have
   only had pews and kneelers for the last 150-200 years.  Supposedly,
   they started to become widely installed as part of a liturgical reform
   effort to bring those in attendance into closer participation.
   Apparently, before churches had pews, it was common for people to just
   sort of mill about the church practicing their own private devotions
   during Mass (not surprising when you consider that the priest said
   the whole Mass in Latin with his back to the people).

Kneeling has been part of Catholic Tradition for a *very* long time.

Priests and bishops who remove kneelers from the churches are doing so
because they've lost the Faith; they have become Protestants.  There's
really no other reason.
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Date:         Fri, 2 Oct 1992 15:03:07 -0400
From:         URSIC@ASTRO.CS.HH.AB.COM
Subject:      Re: Mary

Eric writes:
>Mary was the Mother of God in every way that any woman is a mother.

Hey, I like that! Maybe I'd improve it a bit by changing the 'was' to 'is'.
Maybe not.
I think the confusion comes in when we try to pull 'God' out of context
used, as 'God' the trinity conjurs up different thoughts than God, Jesus.
Of course, I've always been partial to short, simple answers.:-) - J.J.
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From: edjans01@orion.spd.louisville.edu (David Jansing)
Subject: Re: All about the Book of Revelation
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 20:07:15 GMT
Organization: University of Louisville

In <BvpGx7.E1v@andy.bgsu.edu> kutz@andy.bgsu.edu (Ken Kutz) writes:


>REV 1:1  The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

>What do we know from this verse?  It appears the order of revelation goes
>this way:

>God ---REVELATION---> Jesus Christ ---> angel ---> John

>The first establishes the origin of this book.  That it is revealed divine
>truth from God the Father to God the Son.   God the Son sent an angel
>(as a divine messenger) to John, who according to verse 2:

>REV 1:2  Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

>So the new "revelation" diagram becomes:

>God ---> REVELATION ---> Jesus Christ ---> angel ---> John ---> written record

>Every revelation has a source and destination.  These are laid out for us
>in the verse two verses.

>Summary for verses 1 & 2:  The author claims this a divinely written
>book, inspired and revealed by God to His Son who sent an angel to
>John.  Hence the name of the book: The Revelation

>A cross reference for this: "All Scripture is God breathed and is
>useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness"
>(NIV).

Are you disputing what was orginally posted, Ken?  We can't look to the
Scripture literally.  We must also look at its historical and literary contexts
as well.  The historical and literary contexts make it clear that Revelation
is not literature intended to describe the end of the world, but Scripture 
intended to bring about hope to a desparing people (a.k.a. the persecuted
Christians).
-- 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dave Jansing                     | "What we call the beginning is often the end
Electrical Engineering Department|  And to make an end is to make a beginning.
University of Louisville         |  The end is where we start from . . ."
                                 |  -- T.S. Eliot, "Four Quartets"
              Internet:  edjans01@starbase.spd.louisville.edu
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DISCLAIMER:	The opinions expressed here are strictly my own and do not
		necessarily reflect those of the Department of Electrical
		Engineering or any other department within the University
		of Louisville.
From: elendil@mintir.new-orleans.la.us (Edward J. Branley)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Re: Omnipresent? (was Re: pre Vat II?)
Date: Sun, 04 Oct 92 09:02:21 CDT
Organization: Minas Tirith BBS (Public Access Usenet for New Orleans)

"(Gordon C. Zaft)" <zaft@CARITAS.COTDAZR.ORG> writes:

> On Oct 2, 10:12am, "Brian Tillman, Smiths Industries, VAX Support,    wrote:
> } Subject: Re: pre Vat II?
> } Ernest (ern@unix.cis.pitt.edu) writes:
> }
> } >                            I'd much rather go to a Catholic church
> } >without "warmth" and without a great teaching ministry than any non-Cathol
> } >church because, even if I only ever know the most basic truths of my Faith
> } >JESUS IS THERE, TRULY PRESENT IN BODY, GIVING HIM SELF UP FOR MY SINS!
>  Nothing
> } >is better than this and nothing is more important, no matter how appealing
> }
> } Judging from this statement, I'd infer that you do not believe the Christ i
> } omni-present in all creation and that He did not die for our sins once for
>  all.
> } Somehow, this just doesn't jibe with Chritianity as I know it.
> }-- End of excerpt from "Brian Tillman, Smiths Industries, VAX Support,
>
>       I don't see anything in the post that refers to Christ not dying for
> our sins.  What I do see is an acknowledgment of the Real Presence.
>
>       I'm a little confused as to what you mean by 'omni-present in all
> creation'... that sounds like it's dangerously close to pantheism to me.
>

There you go again.  I don't know where you get these off the wall
interpretations from.  I think the meaning here of 'omni-present' is more along
the lines of 'when two or more are gathered in my name...' rather than
pantheism.  You said you prefer a Catholic Church.  Brian's response is
basically that it is indeed possible to worship God, *your* God, outside of a
Catholic church, and God is still present.  Maybe not, certainly not in the
same manner as the Real Presence in a Catholic church, but He is still there.
How you get pantheism out of that is beyond me.



|Edward J. Branley         elendil@mintir.new-orleans.la.us|
|Seashell Software, Metairie, LA            +1-504-455-5087|
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Date:         Mon, 5 Oct 1992 06:47:45 -0500
From:         "(Joel Neisen)" <joel@MSC.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Fatima: warning or prediction

>         I haven't read all of the Revelation recently, but doesn't it say
> something like how those who live through the tribulation will wish they
> hadn't?  Doesn't it go something like this:  1) Some people are taken directly
> up to Heaven  2) Remaining people live through a very bad time on Earth
> 3) At the end of this time, everyone is given a second chance - Jesus comes,
> the dead rise and are judged, they go to Heaven or Hell.  The End on Earth.

In regards to 1), I don't think the RC church has the same view of "rapture"
as many Protestant churches.  Gettting back to Revelations, there is
a scene in Revelations in which the martyrs (those who had died in earlier
tribulations and did not worship the beast) are taken into heaven
while more tribulations are visited upon the earth.
If memory serves, Revelations does NOT have a segment of the population being
removed from the earth before any of the tribulations start.
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From: ndallen@nyx.cs.du.edu (Nigel Allen)
Subject: Pope to visit Albania?
Organization: Echo Beach
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 92 04:53:56 GMT



(from the Chicago Tribune, Sept. 27, 1992)
 
Once-atheist Albania wants pope to visit

 VATICAN CITY -- Albania has invited Pope John Paul II to visit the Balka

country that called itself the "world's first atheist state" while under
communist rule. Albanian Premier Aleksander Meksi met Friday with the
Vatican's secretary of state, Cardinal Angelo Sodano, to discuss the Roma

Catholic Church's attempts to reorganize in Albania, papal spokesman
Joaquin Navarro said.

 

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Date:         Wed, 30 Sep 1992 14:08:56 -0700
From:         "(Gordon C. Zaft)" <zaft@CARITAS.COTDAZR.ORG>
Subject:      Leading the Rosary

On Sep 29,  2:14pm, Mike Shaw wrote:
} Subject: Leading the Rosary
} Before mass this upcoming Sunday, I have the honor of leading the parish
} in the Rosary. I'm wondering, is it appropriate to share a personal reflection
} of each Mystery before proceeding with the decade?
}-- End of excerpt from Mike Shaw

	I don't see why not; I'd keep it brief, though; and be sure to
interject in such a fashion that people don't get confused as to where
you are.

GZ

--
* Gordon Zaft     Argus Consulting  4500 E. Sunrise #N-6, Tucson, AZ 85718
* zaft@caritas.cotdazr.org | noao.edu!coyote!caritas!zaft
                 Semper fidelis Christi et Vicarii sui.
Power is poison.
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From: bobv@spike.Jpl.Nasa.Gov (Bob von Buelow)
Subject: Re: Kneeling in church (how long a tradition?)
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, CA
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 14:49:57 GMT

(Joseph H. Buehler) writes:
>Kneeling has been part of Catholic Tradition for a *very* long time.
>
>Priests and bishops who remove kneelers from the churches are doing so
>because they've lost the Faith; they have become Protestants.  There's
>really no other reason.

Well this pretty much sums up *that* position.  

I see this as a very clear statement that real faith in God has been
tragically confused with externals.

I worry about which one of us has lost the faith.

Bob

--
Bob von Buelow             Mars Observer Planning and Sequencing Element
bobv@spike.jpl.nasa.gov          - standard disclaimers apply -
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From: jocallag@vyasa.helios.nd.edu (john ocallaghan)
Subject: Re:      Re: pre-vat II?
Organization: OUC, University of Notre Dame
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 21:03:56 GMT

In article <01GPHN654M7K8WVZD2@umassd.edu> Liz Moreau <EMOREAU@UMASSD.EDU> writes:
>
>human - clergy and bishops alike.  I don't follow a man.  I follow the
>Lord.  If the hierarchy's teachings go along with the Bible, then its
>fine with me.

Are you identifying the Bible with the Lord in the above passage.  It seems
tom me that an important question for you is how the Bible has come to have
such great authority over you.  It should have great authority over everyone.
But on what does that authority rest?  Has God told you personally, "this
is my Word, believe it?"  Does it come with a preface that says "this is the
Word of God, believe it?"  Or did the Bible as revelation come to have
this stature in our Christian faith in a very different way?>


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Date:         Fri, 2 Oct 1992 09:26:51 HST
From:         "(Len Howard)" <tas@PEGASUS.COM>
Subject:      Re: RCIA Update
              9:27am)

It may also help to read 1Tim6:17-19.  Paul obviously was dealing with
some wealthy people in the early church, and he advised Timothy how
best to instruct these people.  It fits in with what the Holy Father
is using Rich Man/Lazarus for.

Shalom,                             Len Howard
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From: bdboyle@erenj.com (Bryan D. Boyle)
Subject: Re: Obedience; Parish Hopping
Organization: Exxon Research and Engineering Co., NJ
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 02:10:28 GMT

>simple common sense to deal with this situation.  The solution set doesn't look
>that big.  As Jim said, it seems that you're so uncomfortable with this
>situation that you probably aren't getting much out of the Mass.  So, since
>your faith is strong enough that you *want* to get something out of Mass, then
>you can either point out the kneeling situation to the pastor of the Newman
>Center and hope he sees things your way, or find another parish.
>
>As to parish shopping, I don't see any reason not to.  I know of no rules that

Direct quote out of the Catholic Encyclopaedia:

Parish: ...Up to the council of Trent, parishes were for the most part,
territorial entities with loosely defined boundarires.  

THe Council of Trent decreed that parishes be established with definite
geographical boundaries and that the pastor, or parish priest, have
jurisdiction only over the faithful who resided within these boundaries.


Parishes are territorial in nature.  The law also allows for the
establishment of parishes based upon rite (say, the Melkite...),
nationality (I grew up next door to the "polish" church, but attended
the "french" parish...:-)).  Such parishes are called personal parishes,
since they are composed not of all persons in a territory, but of
persons having some similar quality.

>say you are bound by geography.  Here in New Orleans, we have a neighborhood
>where two churches were built almost across the street from one another, one
>for the Italians in the neighborhood and the other for the Germans.  One friend
>
>A lot of the rule about going to the parish you are territorially
located in has to do with the educational system, and the need for
a parish that has a school to be able to judge the amount of resources
that
it has to dedicate to that school...
>


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From: jocallag@bach.helios.nd.edu (john ocallaghan)
Subject: Re:      Re: fasting
Organization: OUC, University of Notre Dame
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 01:39:02 GMT

In article <CATHOLIC%92100517021192@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU> CCCAMPER@MIZZOU1.BITNET writes:
>
>Don't fast unless you do it out of love and accept it joyfully. If
>the heart isn't in it, its of no value.
>
>God bless you!
>Elizabeth

This is a beautiful posting Elizabeth.  Thanks.
Peace, and God bless you too.
JOhn

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Date:         Sat, 26 Sep 1992 14:29:00 EDT
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From:         Liz Moreau <EMOREAU@UMASSD.EDU>
Subject:      Re: mysticism

>Guided imagery is done all the time in virtually every Catholic
>Church. It is simply meditation, or deep relaxed thought, on images
>that are suggested by another person. It is a tool, rather than a
>doctrine, or spiritual path, and at its base is really just hypnosis.

Yes, it really is just hypnosis!  We are warned against this in the
Bible.  We are told not to give over control of ourselves to anything
or anyone.  People that are in a hypnotic state usually don't remember
anything or just a little bit of what happened when they were under.

					God Bless,

						Liz
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Date:         Thu, 1 Oct 1992 09:40:45 -0700
From:         "(Gordon C. Zaft)" <zaft@CARITAS.COTDAZR.ORG>
Subject:      Re: space for worship

On Sep 30,  6:30am, "(Edward J. Branley)" wrote:
} Subject: Re: space for worhsip
} "(Gordon C. Zaft)" <zaft@CARITAS.COTDAZR.ORG> writes:
}
} Your analysis is fundamentally flawed, since you're making the assumption that
} Nancy is equating the Word to the Eucharist.  You're also stretching things by
} trying to develop a conflict between sacrifice and the meal imagery of the
} Mass.  There is sufficient language in the Mass alone to support Nancy's
} analogy.  Additionally, the simple act of putting a meal on the table can be a
} sacrifice for many families, which strengthens the analogy.
	Well, I'll agree that my analysis has flaws, though I'm not sure
fundamentally so.  I am not necessarily saying Nancy equated the Word
to the Eucharist, but I certainly see an effort being made in the Church
these days to try to put them at the same level.
}
} Nancy's point is that human beings cannot focus on a wide variety of things at
} the same time.  Designing a church so that people focus on the Word when it is
} being read, then on the Consecration when it takes place, is practical.  It
} doesn't equate the two.

	I agree.



--
* Gordon Zaft     Argus Consulting  4500 E. Sunrise #N-6, Tucson, AZ 85718
* zaft@caritas.cotdazr.org | noao.edu!coyote!caritas!zaft
                 Semper fidelis Christi et Vicarii sui.
Love is in the offing.  Be affectionate to one who adores you.
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Date:         Sun, 4 Oct 1992 16:33:46 -0400
From:         Eric James Ewanco <ewanco@MLO.DEC.COM>
Subject:      Re: Fatima: warning or prediction

Michael,

We are not bound to believe private revelations such as Fatima, but it has been
approved by the church as an authentic revelation.  This means that while we
aren't bound to believe it, or bound to anything, it deserves our trust.

Personally -- I see ample evidence that this world is rapidly decomposing, and
much evidence points to the return of Christ very soon.  True, people have been
saying that for thousands of years.  I believe we should not make any foolish
plans depending on this, not out of lack of faith, but out of prudence and
obedience to the Lord's instructions.  Every day should be lived as if the Lord
were returning tomorrow.

A number of non-Fatima related prophesies have pointed to Pope John Paul II as
the last pope before the return of Christ.  I think St. Malachy, though,
prophesied two anti-popes at the end.

It will be disappointing only getting to live out half my life here on earth,
but boy! the reality I will have instead will be far more wonderful. I am
hoping that I will not die in the tribulation, but be taken up alive at the
end of time.  Ah, to be one of the few who will not taste death . . .

"Oh death, where is your victory? Oh death, where is your sting?"

Eric
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Date:         Mon, 5 Oct 1992 09:33:21 CDT
From:         CCCAMPER@MIZZOU1.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Secrets of Fatima
              3 Oct 1992 19:07:42 GMT from <pol30546@UXA.CSO.UIUC.EDU>

On Sat, 3 Oct 1992 19:07:42 GMT Peder Larsen said:
>	Has everyone heard about the Korean Pastor in California who
>says the end of the world will start on Oct. 28?  What are your opinions?

It is consistent with most "believable" visionaries and locutionists,
(Fatima, Medjugorje, etc) that this "era" will end before the end
of this decade. In 1988 Fr. Don Stephano Gobbi was told by Our Lady
that we were entering the last decade in which all that was foretold
would come to pass.

It is my belief and understanding that this is the end of an era, the
end of time as we know it, but not the end of the world. Not the
final judgement.

We have been in "the chastisments" for a time now, although not The
Chastisment. Evidently one major event is still to come. (in the
least)

A consistent theme with most visionaries and locutionists is that there
will be a great warning that NO ONE will doubt came from God. We will
all see our sins as God sees them. In this timeframe (however long)
everything on earth will be temporarily suspended. This will be a bit
dreadful when we see that each little transgression is accounted for.
(eek) This is to be a source of great conversion for believers (who
will see how much closer to God they need to come) and for non-believers
(who will finally know that God is real) Some will still fight God,
however.
Next there is to be the great Miracle. Again no doubt in anyone's mind
that it is from God. A priest in Garabandal ( a very troublesome
sequel to Fatima, but it is supposedly finally getting somewhere in
the Church....the investigations were terribly conducted and bungled)
was given a preview of this great Miracle and a few hours later died
in ecstacy. (must be pretty good ;-> )
And then after these events is to be the Chastisement with a capital
C. Our prayers can mitigate this event.

Those from Fatima, Medjugorje, Garabandal, Fr. Gobbi, Vassula Ryden,
etc, all foretell of this same sequence of events. While I have no
idea if October 28 is a particular starting date it has been said
that the latter part of 1992 is the beginning of very difficult times.

We are asked to pray for mankind, and to fast. Seems like a good idea
to me. The outlook on all of this should not be fear or terror. It is
a time of joy and hope, that Christ will reign. "Thy Kingdom come,
Thy will be done, on Earth as it is in Heaven".

Love in Christ,
Elizabeth
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Date:         Mon, 28 Sep 1992 00:44:22 CDT
From:         "(Edward J. Branley)" <elendil@MINTIR.NEW-ORLEANS.LA.US>
Subject: Re: Kneeling in church (how long a tradition?)

"(Joseph H. Buehler)" <rex!SARTO.BUDD-LAKE.NJ.US!jhpb> writes:

> In article <yg0PRB5w165w@mintir.new-orleans.la.us> "(Edward J. Branley)"
> <elendil@MINTIR.NEW-ORLEANS.LA.US> writes:
>
>    Hmmm...well, how do you explain churches that never had kneelers in the
> first
>    place?  Protestant architects?
>
> Pre-Reformation architects; before refusal to adore the Blessed
> Sacrament was a known heresy.

Ok, I get it now.  Gothic cathedrals built in the 1300-1500s were built by
Pro-Reformation architects!  Makes perfect sense to me.  <g>



|Edward J. Branley                         elendil@mintir.New-Orleans.LA.US|
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Date:         Tue, 6 Oct 1992 07:56:47 EDT
From:         Jim McIntosh <JIM@AMERICAN.EDU>
Subject:      Re: sinead o'connor
              6 Oct 1992 05:50:51 GMT from <oneil@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>

On Tue, 6 Oct 1992 05:50:51 GMT (Sharon O'Neil) said:
>I disagree.  I saw an interview with her from a few weeks back and it
>seems that her hatred of the Church is rooted in the child abuse that
>she experienced as a child.  I think what she needs is help and compassion
>and not to be called names.

I agree. I got the sense from the Entertainment Tonight segment that she
suffered abuse as a child, and it was either directly related to the
church (ie, done by a priest or a nun) or condoned by the church. The
details were not spelled out, mercifully.

We now know that cases where priests abuse children are not isolated
events. We've also seen cases where a victim will turn to the bishop for
help and be rebuffed, either because of concerns of lawsuits or in a
desire to protect the priest. Surely it would not be difficult to project
that anger you would feel at the hierarchy up to the Bishop of Rome.

If this is the source of her anger, she is a injured and hurting child.
Our response to her, acting out of her very real pain, should not be to
spit on her and call her a harlot (this is in fact the worse thing you
can do to a victim of child abuse -- imply that the abuse was their
fault), but rather turn to her in kindness. Ignore the blows to your
cheeks and to your dignity. Christ suffered much worse. Instead, feel her
pain and do what you can to help her relieve that pain.

Peace!

Jim McIntosh, SFO (jim@american.edu)
The American University
Washington DC 20016-8019 USA
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