From: Les_Jenkins@lppl.mi.org (Les Jenkins)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Anyone Heard of Rifts
Distribution: world
Date: 30 Jul 92 02:28:24 EST
Organization: Les's Place BBS

In a message dated Wed 29 Jul 92 21:14,
cpbeaure@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu (Chris Beauregard) wrote:

>Like the same thing doesn't happen in the average AD&D game either. Every
>AD&D game I've been in has been a rush for XP and Spells and Treasure and
>Magic Items. 

 CB> Did I need to mention AD&D was munchkin?

:-) I suppose not really, an impulsive response on my part. :-)

>As for the sheer destructive capabilities of the hardware, well, thats one
>of my favorite things about the game. Makes for a lot of role playing
>potential when a player accidently blows away the NPCs he needs to finish
>the adventure, or worse yet, the NPCs who are related to the king they are
>dealing with.

 CB> That's nice, I guess.  The problem is that if you give someone large
and
 CB> powerful gadgets, they gotta use them (at least in my experience -
maybe
 CB> I have bad experience...)  The rather anarchistic background of RIFTS
 CB> leads to too many cases of people walking around with a might makes
 CB> right outlook.  If the opposition needs a small army to eliminate
 CB> players, then either the GM needs to create a lot of small armies,
 CB> create munchkin enemies (not hard, just gate a new baddy in
sometime..),
 CB> or fudge the players to death.  The problem, I guess, is that you have
a
 CB> hard time putting _subtle_ controls on PCs.

I, personally, don't see anything wrong with the PC's using large and
powerful gadgets. That IS part of what the game is all about. Let's not
overlook the fact that the Mages can get ahold of some pretty devastating
spells as well. The whole point of the game was to take technology and
magic to high levels for some majorly epic roleplaying. Some people aren't
into that and I can accept that stance, but some of us like it as well. If
you want subtlety then RIFTS certainly isn't for you, I'll admit that much
readily.

As for creating small armies or munchkin enemies or fudging to give the
players a challenge, well, I disagree. The occasional adult dragon will be
more than a match for just about any PC party no matter how long they've
been at it (no one has managed to kill one in my campaign) if you want
ensure the PC's death use two adult dragons. Many of the new monsters in
the Rifts Conversion Book can be equally devistating without being unfair
(check out the Lizard Mages for an example of a tough fight) and a clever
GM will come up with many situations wherein all that high-tech armor and
guns won't do the PCs any good. (One of the PC's in my campaign is a bit of
a Lech and tries to bed any good looking females he comes across. Shoulda
seen the look on his face when the chick whom agreed to roll in that hay
with him suddenly changed into a demon-bitch-from-hell, literally, in the
middle of the act with him stark naked and his equipment in another room.)


>Why do you feel that Full Conversion Borgs and Glitter Boys should not be
>allowed as PCs? As for ignoring the MDC/SDC distinction, the rules state

 CB> I've found that in too many cases they lead to a typical AD&D fighter
 CB> attitude.  Kill until dead.  Face it.  A Glitter Boy is too often just
a
 CB> walking tank.  A Borg is a walking tank.  In fact, just about any
 CB> character in powered armor or heavy MDC armor is a walking tank.

So whats wrong with walking tanks? Walking tank doesn't mean invulnerable
and most PCs learn after the first few character deaths that just because
you got a big gun doesn't mean you rule the world. The word retreat becomes
a standard of their vocabulary really quickly when the frontal attacks no
longer work and a strategy would obviously be a better way to do things.
You simply gotta play for keeps and not be afraid to kill of characters.
New players in my campaign die notoriously quickly until they drop their
old AD&D habits and start thinking about what they're doing.

>that you may do so if you wish and provides rules for converting MDC to
SDC
>damage. Personally I think doing this subtracts from the game though.

 CB> Well, my suggestion to the DM at the time was not "convert the
damage".
 CB> It was drop the distinction.  Find everything in the book that has the
 CB> characters "MDC" and "SDC" and erase them.  So your knife does say 1d4
 CB> points of <blank> damage, and your vibro-knife does say 2d4 points of
 CB> <blank> damage.  Not 1d4 SDC and 2d4 MDC or 2d4*100 SDC.  'Scuze the
 CB> damage values, I haven't played in a very long time.  

Ugh. That would REALLY subtract from the game. No point in having anything
like a vibro blade then. 

 CB> The point of doing this was to, well, even things out a lot.  PCs
could
 CB> then worry about things like townspeople and their shotguns, primitive
 CB> tribes with spears, that sort of thing.  And the small army previously
 CB> mentioned can become a more commonplace posse or lynch mob, or maybe a
 CB> guy with an ancient Gatling and good terrain...

Thats fine if you like that sort of thing. The average townspeople, and
surely the average primitive tribe were never meant to be a challenge to
PCs in power armor. Sure they can walk right into most towns and take them
over. Doesn't mean they will stay in power. People have to sleep sometime
and you can't live in your armor. Not all towns are unprotected either.
Cyberknights are known for doing away with such menaces.

>Never read it so I can't comment.

 CB> Read it.  Worth every little bit.  If you're a RIFTS GM, you should
pick
 CB> up a few ideas.

I shall check it out.

> CB> In summary, great game, lends itself to munchkinism _really_ well.
>
>So do half of the rest of the RPGs out there. It's up to the GM to avoid

 CB> Yes, but this one is almost tailor made for munchkin campaigns.  Most
 CB> games, it's a little harder to do that sort of thing.  Beginning
 CB> characters normally cannot destroy small towns.

I disagree that it was tailor made for such campaigns. Sure, beginning
characters can destroy small towns. So can beginning characters in the Star
Wars RPG (all you need is one good star fighter and a few straffing runs)
or starter characters in MegaTraveller I could name quite a few other RPGs
as well including ANY of the Super Hero RPGs. Thats the power level that
game is written for. Properly played the players will have little reason to
destroy whole towns.

In fact, the center point of my whole RIFTS campaign at the moment is a
small town that the PCs have adopted at the request of the townspeople
themselves. They came into town one night and stopped the raids of a
splugorthian raider at which point the grateful townsfolk asked them to
stay on. After much role playing of fixing up the place and many skill
checks to build things like Water Towers, and stables, etc the PCs suddenly
became VERY concerned whenever a major Supernatural Force or Dingbats in
Power armor threatened the town they had worked so hard at building up.
After doing repairs from any battle damage they get even MORE worked up the
next time something rears it's ugly head. In this case we have the reverse
of what you fear. PCs using their god-awful powerful armor and weapons to
save a town instead of ruining it. Proper motivation is all that is
required.


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