From: 01sybok@ac.dal.ca
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.college,soc.college
Subject: Re: Fraternities  was (Re: still more practical jokes
Date: 12 Apr 92 15:23:45 GMT
Article-I.D.: ac.1992Apr12.122345.4988
Organization: Dalhousie University, Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

In article <s0nuuINNd77@network.ucsd.edu>, erwin@bend.ucsd.edu (Sean Erwin) writes:
> Oh how can I resist a flame war!!!  Please ignore this if you are not interested
> it is full of frat bashing and defending---I am the basher, my original article
> is denoted by (>>), the rebuttal by (>) and my new stuff with nothing... enjoy
> or ignore, as per your pleasure...

Sigh. I got this email, and wreot the guy back, but I may as well post it here
too.
> 
>>> It's easy to say "we don't hate women, we don't attack them,"  etc.  But this
>>> is not the issue.  It's easy (for some) to abuse a woman, rape a woman, but
>>> later not think what happened is rape.  The *real* issue is whether fraternity
>>> members *respect* women.  Respect their views, their ideas: conceive of them
>>> as people, rather than sperm receptacles with lots of neat curves.  And I
>>> sincerely doubt that the majority of men in fraternities know what it is to
>>> respect women.  
>>> 
>>*Sigh*. Here we go again. O-kay, I'm going to say this one more time...
>>*are* you listening carefully?
>>All fraternities are different. Al men *in* fraternities are different. Each
>>human being is unique. You are making a generalization. I am a fraternity man.
> 
> My generalizations are based on my experiences.  I *know* what men say about
> women when no women are present.  I know what attitudes are expressed.  I have
> *seen* drunk fraternity members with drunk women talking very disrepectfully
> about the women present...(how they were going to fuck them, etc...)  I have 
> heard mysoginst drinking song lyrics sung by fraternity members.  I have seen
> pictures of women drawn by fraternity members with fanged mouths for genitalia.
> In short, I have seen plenty of disrespect for women voiced and otherwise 
> indicated by fraternity members, while I have seen very little real indications
> of respect by the same.  Plenty of lip service, buy little real respect.
> 
You know what men *you know* say about women when they aren't present. If i were
you, I'd get new friends. The "vagina with teeth"has been seen on ancient 
sculpture, I once read in a magazine ( Esquire, last fall, the Wild Men and
Wimps one).It's hardly new, nor is it unique to fraternities.

>>I respect *everyone*. I try to remember that everyone is unique; everyone
>> is defined be a million different experiences. Some of those are related to
>>sex. I respect tose experiences, and the differences they bring. Have I made
>>myself *quite* clear, or shall I tattoo it on your forehead so you can read
>>it every day?
>>
> You are quite the man if you truly can respect *everyone*.  If only we could
> all remember that everyone has much to contribute to life....

You're right. I am quite the man ;-) 

>>
>>> It is nearly impossible to rid one's self of racism without having a good
>>> friend of a race other than your own.  Only in this way can you hear opinions
>>> and views from a person who's life experience is vastly different than your own.
>>> And only if this person is your friend, usually, can you respect such views
>>> different than your own.  The same goes for tolerating people of different
>>> cultures, religions, and also of different sexes.
>>
>>Maybe you should get rid of that classist attitude. Get a few fraternity friends
>>and *then* make a judgment. Even then, you will be making a silly and inaccurate
>>generalization, but at lease that judgement has a hope in hell of being 
>>slightly closer to the mark. I think anyone can see the hipocracy evident in
>>your posting. You apparently have no fraternity friends, you are making 
>>judgements and heresay, yet you give advice like the above. Maybe you should
>>practice what you preach.
> 
> Quite clever of you to point out this shortcoming in my argument....I only was
> close to a guy who was courted strongly by a fraternity, but turned it down....
> However, saying that *you* or *your fraternity* is totally angelic and all
> respecting, does not prove that my 'generalization' is 'silly and innaccurate.'
> As I have stated, even I have seen many examples of fraternities promoting
> the ideal of women-as-sex-object, and never the ideal of woman-as-human-being.
> Granted, this is a problem with men in general, but would you be willing to say
> that the majority of fraternities manage to overcome this tendency, despite
> an environment that promotes close friendships with other men over close friendships with women?

I never said my fraternity was totally angellic. *You* said they were all 
straight from hell. The woman as sex object thing is a problem with society at
large. If you wanna change that image, change it there.

> 
>>> If you are male, and you have never had a *very* close female friend, someone
>>> you have respect for because of what they say and do, it is unlikely that you
>>> have respect for women in general.  And how can you form such a bond in a
>>> fraternity, where all your friends are guys, constantly reinforcing your ideas
>>> that women are playthings rather than real people that need to be listened to.
>>> 
>>I find this ludicrous (sp?) and insulting. I have a load of female 
>>friends, but even if I didn't, my lack of female friends would not 
>>necessarily mean I didn't respect women. The bond I formed ith my brothers is 
>>different entirly from the bonds I form with my other friends; the bonds I form
>>with each of my friends is different from the bonds I have with all my other 
>>friends. Each bond of friendship is different. Each boerhood is different.
>>If you have exactly the same relationship with each of your friends, you must 
>>lead a boring life.
> 
> Of course I never said that you have to have exacty the same relationship will
> (with) each of your friends, but this is besides the point.  You say that if you
> did not have any female friends, you would not necessarily disrespect women.  I
> claim that a normal american male will disrespect women and tend to think of 
> them as objects unless something occurs, like a close friendship, to lead him
> otherwise.  This is a product of ages and ages of male dominated society.  Women
> in mass media are portrayed more often than not as merely objects; look closely
> at the next beer commercial if you don't believe me.  It takes something to
> overcome this ingrained ignorance....how can you learn to overcome it if you
> surround yourself with men who grew up in the same women-objectifying atmosphere
> as yourself?   To put it more generally, how can you learn to see other points
> of view if you only live with people who see it the same as you?  If there is
> much more contact with men than with women every single day, how can you come
> out with a balanced view?  I don't deny that it is possible, and hey, you may
> be more well adjusted than I am, but following my reasoning here, how can you
> say that the majority of fraternity men can learn to respect women simply by
> living in a fraternity?

Actually, you implied that I have the same relationship with each of my 
brothers, which is incorrect. How can you tell what atmosphere I live and work
in? All you know about me is that I am a fraternity man. you didn't even 
bother to check my address to see that I'm not even American!
>>
>>> I feel that this is the central problem with fraternities:  they are dens of
>>> old-world sexist ideals, places where progressive ideas die before they can
>>> even be thought of, where women are forcibly excluded, where respect for those
>>> of different sex, color, or culture has absolutely zero chance of forming, in
>>> short, places where the status quo in America reigns.
>>> 
>>
once again, I'm Canadian. I'm not even going to bother to mention the cultural 
differences of my brothers; it'd be cliche.

>>We are *not* dens of old world sexist ideals. If we were, My chapter would not
>> have held a benefit for the local battered wife shelter. If you knew any Phi
> 
> That's very noble of you.  Throwing money at a problem is the American way.
> Do any of your brothers beat their girlfriends now?  Did any of you learn from
> the women at the shelter?  Did any of you talk to them about their experiences?

What is that "beat their girlfriends now" comment? I missed it completly. (no 
sarcasm there; I'm serious). Did we speak to 'em? yes, we held a dance as a
fundraiser; many of them attended.

> 
>>Delts, or if you had ever pledged, you'd know that one of the tests of a true 
>>Phi is the ability to respect the opinions of *everyone* regardless of race, 
>>sex, or creed. These are more than words for us. It's and ideal we strive for.
> 
> More than words.  When that awesome looking babe gets drunk at one of your
> parties, is she taken upstairs, or taken home....?

Home. I can attest to this. There was a girl who was in some of my classes 
who showed up at the house drunk one night. I looked after her and walked her 
home.and yes, she was *very* attractive.

> 
>>How can you make these silly generalizations? I'm torn here between blind
>>fury and laughter at your abysmal ignorance/abject stupidity. We do exclude
> 
> I have tried to explain the motivations for what I have claimed.  I think my
> concerns are valid, and I am not afraid to discuss them.  I would love to learn
> that fraternities are progressive minded and hold a deep respect for all.
> Unfortunately, I have not witnessed any of this attitude, but plenty of the 
> opposite.  Is it just me?

Your concerns are valid, but you should be looking at the big picture, not 
just at fraternities. Personally, I think it is just you, but that's just
me.

> 
>>women, it's true. I make no apologies for that. We are a men's only club.
> 
> Excluding women is arbitrary, counterproductive, unecessary, and passe.  There's
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

In your opinion. In mine, it isn't. In my opinion, the fraternity is a place
where I can meet other guys. Since it's my club, I can do what I want with it.
Like the checklist said... freedom of association.
   
> no valid reason for this.  Only 'tradition,'  and what is tradition but clinging
> to the past?  This is a new world, and a new world must bring with it new ideas
> and new ways of doing things.  What are fraternities but the seeds of future
> 'good old boy networks?'  Old ideas such as this are causing the stagnation of
> America.


> 
>>We do *not* exclude anyone else. If you are a male student at our university,
>>or any of our affiliates, we will give you a chance to join. I also notice
>>not *once* in this posting do you mention sororities, though they are as 
>>sexist as fraternities. Why is that?
> 
> Here you admit that fraternities are sexist, as well as sororties.  The
> difference is that a man can do a lot more harm to a woman than a woman can
> do to a man....

Wrong. Women may not have the upper body strength, but they can do plenty of
damage to a man's life. Go watch Fatal Attraction if you don't believe me.

> 
>>Pledge a fraternity. Make your desision about *that* *Particular* fraternity.
>>Stop making silly generalizations. You are as bad as the sexist people you
>>are trying (pathetically) to slam.
> 
> Well, sexist people deserve slamming....   I have made my decision about enough
> particluar fraternities to feel able to generalize it this way....

That's interesting. I once tried to attend a Women's group meeting, and was told
to go to hell. They are funded by the Student Union, who aren't supposed to 
fund sexist and elitist organizations. I guess they deserve slamming too...
 
>>I'm sorry this is so insulting, but I get a little upset when people make
>>a judgement about em when they have never met me. It's part of the reason I
>>try not to do the same.
> 
> That's nice of you.  Although you did call me 'stupid' or some such earlier.
> In any case, I am not offended.  I do hope you actually are different....

I am. Maybe it's because I am Canadian...

I await your flames...
Mike