HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: wskelly@laurel.ocs.mq.edu.au (William Skelly)
Subject: Re: Hiring quotas and faculty positions (Repost #2)
Organization: Macquarie University, Australia.
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 23:38:03 GMT

In article <1992Sep9.215223.22997@netnews.noc.drexel.edu> David.Koert@CoE.Drexel.EDU (Dave Koert) writes:
>[intro. deleted...]
>
>As I read what I have just written I realize it may look like whining from
>a chauvinist, but I'll risk it to ask for a reasonable discussion of the
>subject.  Even though I *feel* I was somehow cheated, I am forced to
>reason by the compelling argument that past and present discrimination
>should to be compensated for by institutional policies of preference for
>under represented groups.  However, I would like to come up with a list
>of reasonable arguments against this practice also.
>

I too *feel* that I have just run into this sort of thing.  I am also
a little confused as to how one is *supposed* to feel.  This is an
excellent topic for discussion in this group, and perhaps instructive
as to the general backlash that this bit of political correctness is
having within the general workforce (I can't prove this it just seems
to be case with friends employed particularly within the public service).

The only arguements against this practice I can think of (and maybe 
they alone are sufficient) are:

1. Why and how long do *we* pay for the mistakes of past generations
2. Being that it is the *polictically correct* attitude is reason 
   enough to challenge it.

Cheers,
Chris
From: demers@cs.ucsd.edu (David DeMers)
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
Subject: Re: Hiring quotas and faculty positions (Repost #2)
Date: 11 Sep 92 18:15:49 GMT
Organization: =CSE Dept., U.C. San Diego

In article <1992Sep11.162439.26974@tc.cornell.edu> bai@msiadmin.cit.cornell.edu (Dov Bai-MSI Visitor) writes:

>Why should anybody have to pay for crimes he/she did not commit ? If there is
>still discrimination today then punish the people who do it, not the innocents.

Well, this is a problem.  It is a common case that harm is caused, 
but the people who do the damage cannot be made to compensate the
injured people.  Who should pay?  The innocent victim?  The
government (i.e. we, the taxpayers)?

One of the rationales behind affirmative action is that there
has been decades (if not centuries) of systematic discrimination
which has caused many members of the victimized groups to have
reduced ability to compete in society.  It is not a level
and fair playing field.

 
-- 
Dave DeMers			 ddemers@UCSD   demers@cs.ucsd.edu
Computer Science & Engineering	C-014		demers%cs@ucsd.bitnet
UC San Diego					...!ucsd!cs!demers
La Jolla, CA 92093-0114	(619) 534-0688, or -8187, FAX: (619) 534-7029
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: bauwens@acs.ucalgary.ca (Luc Bauwens)
Subject: Re: Asian-American success (was Re: Hiring quotas and faculty positions)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 92 23:45:56 GMT
Organization: The University of Calgary, Alberta

In article <1992Sep13.233438.10071@athena.mit.edu> solman@athena.mit.edu (Jason W Solinsky) writes:
>
>The extracurricular activities excuse is a perfectly legitimate one. In fact
>its a damned immportant criterion for colleges to use in undergraduate
>admissions. My question is, since when have Asian students accelled any less
>at extracurricular activities than at academics?
>
>With most schools I would say that this is most likely an attempt to attribute
>a racist agenda to a place where there wasn't one, but with Berkely
>undergraduate, the number one argument against affirmative action, I wouldn't
>put anything beyond them.

Can you rephrase that last sentence in an intelligible way?  Who is
that "them" you are referring to?  What is the "number one argument
against affirmative action"?

Luc B

Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: beigel-richard@CS.YALE.EDU (Richard Beigel)
Subject: Re: Fabrikant: What to do?
Organization: Yale University, Department of Computer Science
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 15:32:18 GMT


In article <1992Sep8.061033.1@vax1.umkc.edu>, ghiselli@vax1.umkc.edu writes:
|> 	In some of the postings on Fabrikant the question has been raised what,
|> if anything, should have been done as the result of his E-mail postings.

   [He goes on to describe a case in which a student emailed threats to his
    thesis committee.]

This has nothing to do with Fabrikant's mass mailing.  The letter that
Fabrikant mailed to the SIAM combined membership list, which was
subsequently posted in this newsgroup, did not contain any threats
against anyone.
-- 
Richard Beigel			telephone:  (203)432-1228
Dept. of Computer Science	email:  beigel-richard@cs.yale.edu
P.O. Box 2158, Yale Station	campus mail:  A. K. Watson Hall
New Haven, CT  06520-2158		      51 Prospect Street
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: hillyard@lynx.msc.cornell.edu.UUCP (Sean Edward Hillyard,F7 Clark,50649,)
Subject: Re: Hiring quotas and faculty positions (Repost #2)
Originator: hillyard@msc2.msc.cornell.edu
Organization: Cornell-Materials-Science-Center
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1992 21:16:11 GMT

From article <92Sep13.155502.11647@acs.ucalgary.ca>, by bauwens@acs.ucalgary.ca (Luc Bauwens):
[...]
> 
> I don't think that's quite correct.  Or rather, put it this way: this
> works only once.  The typical situation where there is hyperinflation
> is that the nominal interest rates are high enough to cover inflation.
> 
> Hyperinflation is a disguised tax, not on the rich who hold part of
> the debt, but on the poors who keep their paycheck in cash.

Hyperinflation mostly helps debters who financed their debt when inflation 
wasn't expected.  This causes a lot of problems, obviously, but would
certainly solve the government debt (at least that part of it that is
in dollars, which is most of it, I believe).  The (attempted) solution to 
the new problems is often to issue a new currency.

And yes, it will probably only work once.  Possible lenders won't be so
stupid next time.

> 
> But I wonder what this thread got to do with science.careers?
> 
> Luc B
> 

Not much, of course.  I'll shut up now.

SEH
From: paj@uk.co.gec-mrc (Paul Johnson)
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
Subject: Re: Hiring quotas and faculty positions (Repost #2)
Date: 14 Sep 92 10:28:43 GMT
Reply-To: paj@uk.co.gec-mrc (Paul Johnson)
Organization: GEC-Marconi Research Centre, Great Baddow, UK

In article <12SEP199208261004@vtcc1.cc.vt.edu> merolajs@vtcc1.cc.vt.edu (JOSEPH S. MEROLA DEPT OF CHEMISTRY VPI&SU) writes:

>Let me try to put to rest this myth that because of affirmative actio
>the "best person" doesn't get the job.  There is no such thing as
>the "best person."  Why is is that when several universities have 
>advertised the same type of position, and that one "best" person
>applies to them all,that that person may get more than one offer,
>but that he or she doesn't get all of them?  That is because each
>of those departments have different faculty with different
>views evaluating those applicants and coming to different
>conclusions as to who is "best".  So, if you compile 50
>different dossiers on different applicants for a position and
>give them all to 10 or 20 different departments to tell you
>who is the "best", I wouldn't doubt that you would get 10-20
>different answers.  

Suppose you advertise the post of Lecturer in Mech Eng, and get two
applicants.  One is a PhD, the other a bum just off the streets with
no academic qualifications.  Would anyone seriously consider hiring
the bum?  No.  So here you have two applicants and a general consensus
about who is more suitable for the job.  Sounds pretty objective to
me.

Now in real life the applicants often have similar qualifications.  As
you point out, different faculties have different requirements (e.g
research speciality).  And different people are going to have
different views about what the faculty needs.  But this is still no
reason to introduce irrelevancies into the decision process.  The
whole point about the fight against racism and sexism is to remove
these irrelevancies.  I grant that the system is not currently
perfect, but we should be making it better, not worse.

As to why I think AA/PD programs make it worse, see my previous posts.

Paul.
-- 
Paul Johnson (paj@gec-mrc.co.uk).	    | Tel: +44 245 73331 ext 3245
--------------------------------------------+----------------------------------
These ideas and others like them can be had | GEC-Marconi Research is not
for $0.02 each from any reputable idealist. | responsible for my opinions
From: debray@cs.arizona.edu (Saumya K. Debray)
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
Subject: Re: Hiring quotas and faculty positions (Repost #2)
Date: 11 Sep 92 15:50:47 GMT
Organization: U of Arizona CS Dept, Tucson

merolajs@vtcc1.cc.vt.edu (JOSEPH S. MEROLA DEPT OF CHEMISTRY VPI&SU) writes:

>      Let me get a little more specific with my example.  Suppos we have an
> opening for an Inorganic chemist and the ad reads that way.  But we 
> already have some folks on staff in various inorganic resarch areas.  Do
> we want another organometallic chemist?  Maybe.  Or do we want someone
> in a different area such as solid state chemistry?  Again, maybe.  So,
> from some perspective, the "best" person may be an organometallic
> chemist, but we decide we want someone with research interests that are
> not currently being done by someone on staff.  

You're hiring someone with certain technical duties (research, teaching)
in mind.  From this perspective, you've given some good examples and
argued convincingly that _going_by_technical_criteria_, there may not
be a single "best" person who suits your needs.  I don't see anyone
arguing with this.  The important point here is that you're using
technical criteria to evaluate a person for a job involving certain
technical duties.

> Back to the idea of affirmative action, the "qualities" of gender or
> ethnic background can indeed be a valid consideration.  

This seems to be a leap of faith.  I see little relationship between
the structure of one's reproductive organs, or the amount of melanin
in the skin, and the quality of one's research or teaching.  In
general, I see no reason why non-technical criteria should be used
to judge suitability for technical duties ("I'm sorry, we can't
offer you a position in our lab, your moustache isn't quite the right
color.")
-- 
Saumya Debray
Dept. of Computer Science, University of Arizona, Tucson
debray@cs.arizona.edu
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: lseltzer@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Linda A. Seltzer)
Subject: Re: Hiring quotas and faculty positions
Originator: news@nimaster
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1992 12:56:49 GMT

In article <1992Sep11.214740.3960@tc.cornell.edu> bai@msiadmin.cit.cornell.edu (Dov Bai-MSI Visitor) writes:
>But look at the message you are broadcasing to white males: The
>number of positions is depressingly small, and even if you would
>qualify, the 1-2 positions cannt be yours because you happen to
>have the wrong genes. Do you feel comfortable with it ?


That was literally the case for women twenty years ago.  When I
first graduated in 1971: (1) the newspapers had separate
advertisement sections: HELP WANTED - MALE, HELP WANTED - FEMALE.
There was also a column of negligible size for HELP WANTED -
MALE OR FEMALE.  University Placements services also had separate
referrals for men and for women, and women were only referred to
jobs such as editorial assistant with "light typing", and this
was legal.  Many of the older women in the job market today 
have had career paths affected by these practices, which were
formerly legal.  It used to be perfectly legal for a male faculty
to tell a female applicant that they were not planning to hire
a woman.  If you're interested, go to the library and look at
a newspaper like the Philsdelphia Inquirer back in the 1960's
and 1970's and see when the separate ads stopped.  That's why
ads now say that women and minorities are encouraged to apply.
From: reykja@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Reykja Sigurdsson)
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
Subject: Re: Do the police have Fabrikant's postings?
Date: 7 Sep 92 05:49:21 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Fort Collins, CO, USA

In sci.research.careers, orpheus@reed.edu (P. Hawthorne) writes:

> The events that have unfolded before us are stunning, and I would prefer to
> get over the ersatz trauma of having followed the thread to it's horrible
> conclusion, but I feel compelled to ask: Do the police have copies of his
> recent posts here? I mean, are we sure that they've been handed over?

          Since this net is available nearly everwhere, it is unlikely that
they have not been given printouts. 
> 
> Bizarre. News is an abstract involvement in an untangible world, an almost
> prosthetic existence with little or no impact on physical reality. To have
> seen the posts the Fabrikant made before us all, followed by such physical
> and evil acts, is really disturbing. 
>
          I think it is obvious how powerless and desperate Fabrikant felt --
to laboriously type all of this stuff into a file and transmit it to what 
is essentially a public BBS. He really needed to be heard! Look what is 
happened now! 

          As I read the posts, I was struck by two factors: Fabrikant's 
idealism and his rigidity. He had very high expectations and couldn't 
tolerate, internally, the conflict between his idealism and the reality 
of the corruption that is probably standard in all universities. After all
the 'publish or perish' syndrome is not exactly a secret! 

          The poor bastard probably made a lot of the same mistakes that many Soviet immigrants make: they believe it is different somewhere else. Human 
nature is human nature and ain't nothin gonna change it! 

          Although I don't agree with, or even understand, the impulse to 
commit homicide, I can understand the frustration that led to it. 

          It is unlikely that Fabrikant was in his right mind when he 
committed the homicides. The description of his behavior is not consistent
with someone who has premeditatedly and coldly killed people. (The difference
between Fabrikant and Dahmer is obvious.) It is really a shame that there
wasn't some intervention before it got this far. Now, two people are dead,
three are injured and a brilliant sceintific career is down the drain. 

          Could those of us who read the net have done anything? Probably 
not. Didn't he have friends and family who would have become aware of 
his increasing inability to deal with this stuff? 


-reykja   

rks@teal.csn.org   (if you want to respond, please use this address. thanks)
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: lseltzer@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Linda A. Seltzer)
Subject: The problem is not always affirmative action
Originator: news@nimaster
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1992 13:45:19 GMT

>>If they do not understand the complexities of academic life, such
>>individuals may feel resentment.  We should educate them about all
>>of the different ways they may be wrongly turned down, as well as
>>the ways they may be correctly turned down.  They can almost
>>certainly find more heinous sins in the system than AA.

I am aware of certain cases in grossly underqualified woman and
men have gotten very good jobs, at a number of different universities.
The problem is not always related to affirmative action.

There are certain senior people who are very power hungry and
try to increase perceptions of their power by tossing grossly
unqualified people into very high positions.  The rationales
are: (1) if they recommend the best qualified person, they are
merely being passive, but if they get an unqualified person a
job they can create an aura of how powerful they are.  Unfor-
tunately people do not see through this and it works.  (2) if
they place a lesser scholar in a position at a competing
university, then they can maintain the predominance of their
own lab.  I have seen this happen on numerous occasions.
Sometimes both women and men who are not very bright suddenly
get very prestigious grants and positions.  It's important
not to misinterpret this as affirmative action.
This has been a rather rampant disease in computer music.
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: hillyard@lynx.msc.cornell.edu.UUCP (Sean Edward Hillyard,F7 Clark,50649,)
Subject: Re: Stigma was Re: Hiring quotas and faculty positions
Originator: hillyard@msc2.msc.cornell.edu
Organization: Cornell-Materials-Science-Center
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 20:08:59 GMT

From article <JULIE.92Sep15124656@amazon.chem.columbia.edu>, by julie@amazon.chem.columbia.edu (Julie Wright):
[...]
> 
> However, I want to make an important point, which actually strengthens
> Darrell's argument that focusing on the public schools could make a big
> difference (well, *I* think it strengthens it).  Eugene Lang's efforts
[...]

I think their is a lot of evidence about how the 'right' attitude 
with regard to education and success makes a big difference.

In this thread we've had Feynmans observation.  Although one thread cautions
about lookin at Asians as the 'model minority', the fact is that the median
income for Asian families is above that for whites (gotten from the NY Times,
I caution that some of the reason for this is fewer one parent families).
There is also the tendency of immigrant blacks to do much better then the 
natives.

This is where I think the focus should be.

SEH
From: bauwens@acs.ucalgary.ca (Luc Bauwens)
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
Subject: Re: Asian-American success (was Re: Hiring quotas and faculty positions)
Date: 13 Sep 92 16:17:46 GMT
Organization: The University of Calgary, Alberta

In article <1992Sep13.132648.22593@Princeton.EDU> lseltzer@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Linda A. Seltzer) writes:
>
>Berkeley has gone through similar debates, but being the child of
>alumni wasn't the issue there.  The issue was extracurricular
>activities.  It was clear that if admissions were based on
>academic criteria alone, Asian Americans would constitute a
>much larger segment of the Berkeley student population.  
>If it's not the "children of alumni" excuse, it's the "extracurricular
>activities" excuse.  Maybe colleges should simply say that they
>need affirmative action to assure some representation of white
>students even though they are less qualified.

That's only part of the story, though.  The Asian-American community was
very upset with the requirement that the kids should be able to write.
(And, as I recall, that the rules requiring an essay or composition
as part of the evaluation had been put in place without advanced notice.)

The bottom line is that there is no such a thing as an objective
evaluation.  Dov's quote of Feynman was interesting in the sense
that cultural factors are always present.  Thus at some point,
the issue ends up being reduced to lobbying.  And we all end up bringing
our personal agenda, being ideological or tribal or gender-related or
whatever.

In the case at Berkeley, it seemed to me that admission policies were
looked upon in terms of who merits being admitted or not.  (As in:
"Look how hard my kid has been working.  Don't you think he merits
being admitted?")

Luc B
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: chohan@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Harpal Chohan)
Subject: Re: Hiring quotas and faculty positions
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 05:01:18 GMT

In article <14685@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> ah690549@mbcr.bcm.tmc.edu (Annette C. Hollmann) writes:
>I think that it is worng to make separate lists for minorities and
>"majorities" wit the intent of discriminating for or against the minority.
>The ideal way to handle the situation would be to cover the names on the
>cv's during the first stages of selection. All publications should be
>cited showing the first initial and the surname rather that the complete
>name for each author. That way, the committee will not know if the
>applicant is male or female until they decide to invite that person for an
>interview. To avoid identification of gender before that stage,

Gender still being relatively being easy to guess, I wonder how the committee
establishes the candidate's minority/ethnicity status to be able to generate
such a list. I recall, most all applications for faculty positions result
in the candidate getting a letter form the university's affirmative action
office requesting such information; though I believe compliance is not
mandatory. Anyway, as I recall, these letters don't ask for one's name,
but just for the ethnicity related information and the department/position
one is applying for. They also mention that the information is confidential,
and would not reflect on the selection process. That being the case, I wonder
how the committee would be able to establish minority status; unless the
lists are split after interviews. Puzzled...

-h
From: edhall@rand.org (Ed Hall)
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
Subject: Re: Asian-American success (was Re: Hiring quotas and faculty positions)
Date: 14 Sep 92 00:04:36 GMT
Organization: RAND Corporation.

In article <5515@dove.nist.gov> gilligan@bldrdoc.gov (Jonathan M. Gilligan) writes:
> . . . .
>I would like to close with a statement that a friend of mine made
>several years ago when I was talking to him about the ``model
>minority'' label.  He said that he was sick and tired of people
>thinking that he did so well because he was an asian american, rather
>than because he worked hard. He said that he busted his butt every day
>to do well, and many people acted as though success came naturally to
>him without effort because he was of Chinese ancestry.

I think that this is in part a reflection of one of America's most
pernicious myths: that people are successful as a result of "talent" and
not hard work.  Perhaps this belief is from a Puritan streak which still
runs through American culture: the idea that ones success is the result of
God-given "gifts," an outward manifestation of being included among His
"elect."

The mass media does much to perpetuate this myth, with its emphasis on
the appearance of a successful life and not its actuality.  The former
involves more opportunities for sales...  (Am I cynical or what?)

		-Ed Hall
		edhall@rand.org
From: karr@cs.cornell.edu (David Karr)
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
Subject: Re: Hiring quotas and faculty positions
Date: 10 Sep 92 15:12:14 GMT
Organization: Cornell Univ. CS Dept, Ithaca NY 14853

In article <14685@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> ah690549@mbcr.bcm.tmc.edu (Annette C. Hollmann) writes:
> Because most applicants will not be invited for an interview,
>covering up the names will prevent 90% of the discrimination.

This is not obvious.  Women and men are subjected to a number of
different experiences, many of them due to accidents of environment,
that might conceivably cause differences in their CV's and publication
records.  One complaint I've read is that women do not have the option
of either putting off child-rearing until they are older or letting a
spouse take care of it.  Thus women more often than men will have
"gaps" in their academic output.  I would not accept without proof
that issues like this don't account for more than 10% of
discrimination.

Add to the above the possibility that some women, in consideration of
what appear to be higher hurdles, simply give up.  Then you would have
a population (the women) which is already self-selected to include
more qualified and motivated individuals; in this case a woman would
be more likely qualified than a man with the identical CV and
publications.

>I would not accept a position that was obviously part of an affirmative
>action program. I would rather know that I got the job by fair and square
>competition.

You would prefer to lose the job by competition that purported to be
fair and square but really wasn't?

-- David Karr (karr@cs.cornell.edu)
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers