From: cdpert01@ulkyvx.louisville.edu
Subject: Re: Patsy Schroeder on Term Limits
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 13:44:29 GMT
Organization: University of Louisville

In article <1992Nov17.011440.11789@Princeton.EDU>, niepornt@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (David Marc Nieporent) writes:
> In article <1992Nov16.172925.1@ulkyvx.louisville.edu> cdpert01@ulkyvx.louisville.edu writes:
>>
>>     It's not being backed by conservatives only -- otherwise, it
>>wouldn't have passed in every state (which had it on the ballot).
>  
> While it is the trendy "movement" of the moment, and it's a protest
> against "politics as usual" (whatever that means) for the average voter,
> virtually the entire nationwide term limits movement is being bankrolled
> by conservative billionaire David (?) Koch of Oklahoma.
>
     That is news to me.  Would you happen to know of any publications
that mentioned this?  I would be interested in reading more on this....
Nevertheless, do you think that Mr. Koch's funding is responsible for
the voters' sentiments?
 
>>     Term limits and "social engineering" have very little in
>>common.  Was the 22nd Amendment an act of social engineering? 
> 
> Yes, and a dumb one.  (A Republican one, of course; it figures.  :) )

     I hope you're not implying that *politics* (in the derogatory sense)
has *ever* influenced any of our elected *statesmen's* decisions.  :-) 
Seriously, claiming that the 22nd Amendment was an act of social
engineering is going a bit too far -- unless your argument is that all 
law has *some* effect on society.

>>     The Presidency had a two-term *tradition*.  U.S. Grant and
>>Teddy Roosevelt ran for third terms, and both lost.  However,
> 
> Huh?  You'd better refresh my memory.  I seem to recall a different US
> history.  Grant ran (and won) in '68 and '72.  In '76, it was Hayes v.
> Tilden.  When did Grant run again?

     One could say that Grant *passively* ran in 1880 when he
received over 300 delegates at the Republican National Convention.
(He obviously did not receive the nomination.)
 
> Teddy Roosevelt didn't have 2 terms, so that would have been
> tough for him to do.  He had 1 term of his own -- 1905-1909, plus part
> of the William McKinley term of 1901-1905.  (I don't remember exactly
> when McKinley died, though.)  

     Here is where it is important to know when McKinley died; he died
on Sept. 14, 1901.  So, Teddy Roosevelt "inherited" McKinley's term
from 9/14/01 to 3/3/05.  If we look at presidential term limits as
defined in the 22nd Amendment, "serving for more than two years of a
term to which some other person was elected president" is considered
a term (if we simply things by saying a President can have, at most,
two terms).  Hence, "the one term of his own -- 1905-1909" would have
been his final term if the 22nd Amendment was law.

> Then he ran again in 1912, giving the 
> election to my fellow Princetonian, Woodrow Wilson, in the only
> true three way race ever until this year.

     A little plug for Princeton, eh?  Do you ever speak of your
fellow Princetonian, Brooke Shields?   :-)
 
>>     Oh, the proverbial "slippery slope" argument.  Look, if one
>>really loves one's representative, one should encourage him/her to 
>>run for the Senate when his/her limit expires.
> 
> That's not much of an argument.  What about when I like my Senator too?
> I don't see why I should give him up just because you don't like him,
> and can't field a candidate worth diddly to run against him.
> 
> If the playing field isn't level, the solution is to level it, not
> eliminate it.                     ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

     Maybe you didn't realize the double entendre in your statement.
I think many people will agree that the solution is "to level" the
corrupt institution of Congress every once in a while, and build
anew (with new members, of course).

> David M. Nieporent   | Mike Mussina 1993 AL Cy Young Winner
                                      ~~~~
     It's nice to see that you've updated your sig....   :-)

     C. Perttunen
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,misc.legal