From: mec6@quads.uchicago.edu (rini)
Subject: Re: Why I Am a Feminist
Reply-To: mec6@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1992 20:57:38 GMT

payner@netcom.com (Rich Payne) writes:
>lynch@ils.nwu.edu (Richard Lynch) writes:

>>While I don't want to read all 175 myself, will you concede that *some* of
>>these could actually have contained the word rape but been pro-male?
 
>Where did this come from? Rape is not a pro-male topic, ever.

Rich, the point is that the useage of the term "rape" does not imply  
that the poster is using it to make men look bad.  Why right there, 
in the line just you wrote, you have used to the word "rape" without
coming off as anti-male to me.  You see, grep isn't able to sort
that statement of yours from the very different statement "all 
men rape".

But to shed some light on how rape is used, I decided to go through
all 175 of these babies.  Boring, yes.. but I decieved myself into
beleiving it's educational.  :)   (Actually, as I got going, I found
it more and more interesting... can I get degree credit for this 
somewhere?)

Several comments are in order.  First, from what I can recall
about attributions, men were *quite* likely to be the ones using the 
word, even initiating the topic on several occasions.  So I don't
think it is fair to say that the useage of the term implies anti-
male stance.

Second, and most important for your point, there were many 
more posts which used to term "rape" to point to a negative 
aspect of "feminism" than used the term to point anything 
about men.

Third, there were only 65 unique useages in the file.  (I might've made
a mistake somewhere, but that's what I came up with.)

To the analysis...

To get an idea of how the term "rape" was used, I divided up the quotes
into three categories.  The first category is where the word appears 
to have been used to say or imply that rape is a bad thing.  In a 
crude short hand, I called this "'Feminist Friendly' uses of the word."
Note than note of these uses imply, IMHO, that all men are rapists or
anything like that.

The next category, I call "'Feminist' misuse of 'rape' yelled at."  
This is the largest category, and has posts that say "feminists think all
sex is rape" as well as posts that say "Not all feminists think that
all sex is rape."

The last category contains those quotes whose useage was quite neutral 
(e.g. "romance novels feature a rape theme," etc.) or whose context and
meaning are not available, making interpretation difficult.  Some of
Rich's useages of the term are here as well.

Anyway, I'm sure I've made some mistakes, but from what I've done here,
the results are quite interesting.  From what I can tell, in 9 of the
cases, "rape" was brought up in the context of the victimization of men.
In seven of the cases, it was brought up with something like "with the 
new definitions of rape, men are powerless."  In one case, men as rape
victims were mentioned.  In the ninth case, someone mentioned being
falsely accused of rape himself.  

There are only five instances where the word "men" or "man" is used, 
and *all* of these cases point to men as victims.  (Although "father"
and "husband" are also used once each, both times as a hypothetical
perpetrator.)

In contrast to the few cases where the word "men" (or "man") appears
on the same line as the word "rape", the word "feminist" (or "radfem")
shares the line with "rape" in 11 cases.  In all 11 of these cases,
feminsts (or at least some of them) are put down (though most often,
this is by implication, not explicit statement).  Never is the term
"feminist" used in a positive light on the same line as "rape".

In the case of "women", the term is used 9 times.  In four of the cases,
women are portrayed as victims. (This is even stretching it, since one
of these useages is something like, "if the women does not initiate,
Dworkin calls it's rape...") In three of the cases "women" is used to refer 
to unjust rape *accusers*.  In one case, "women" are the rape perpetrators.  
In one case, it is noted that "women fantasize about rape."



So, in a nutshell, it's my conclusion that "rape" is not used as an
"anti-men" keyword, but rather as an "anti-feminist" or, quite often,
as a neutral topic.  Additionally, men are often portrayed as victims 
when this word is used in this.  

In short, I can't see how Rich got the impression that this news
group overwhelmingly refers to men as rapists.


rini


Sorted data follow:


(Note this is hard to read because each individual line does not bear
any relationship to the surrounding lines.)


******** "Feminist friendly" uses of the word: 11 uses **********

Rape is bad and should be punished: 9

> violence and rape-crisis lines are closing for lack of funding.
> rape is about power, and rape is horrifying and demeaning and
> violence and date rape.  I march and rally and campaign for what I believe
> Indeed they have.  Why, spousal rape is only legal in about half the
> had been raped and she thought it was terrible.  But how did that
> When this response is given to women as an excuse for rape, 
> increasing female representation in government, and tougher rape laws and
> retribution by the abuser.  Abuse and rape are difficult to establish.  In
> horror of rape."

Cases where men were presented as threatening: 2

> Suppose you are 12 years old and your father has statutorily raped you.
> Suppose your husband sexually abuses your older two children and has raped 


******** "Feminist" misuse of "rape" yelled at: 24 uses **********

Containing the words feminist, radfem or Dworkin:  11

> But the New Feminist Rules go far beyond just "don't rape
> opportunity to criticize "feminists" for expanding the definition of rape
> And what are these "radfem" definitions? You know rape is rape, and
> (in general). If you use almost any of the radfem (?) definitions of rape,
> Dating is not rape. Rape is a felony. When feminists use
> Ask the feminists who claim that all sex is rape and that it is rape
> there is more to rape than just the claim. And the feminist extremists
> Dworkin's -all sex is rape-, and -whenever a women does not initiate
> all expect from me by now, which is that not all feminists define rape as
> but he doesn't fantasize about *being* raped.  Many female feminists
> there is more to rape than just the claim. And the feminist extremists

Men as victims of unfair definition of rape:  7

> define rape so as to cover almost any sexual situation. Rape cannot
> If a women could send a man to jail (for rape) because
> into a bunch of people who cry rape, and think poorly of men.  Tch tch
> to tell me after I raped her, the children, and the dog. Is that it?
> I have heard women brandy the threat of rape. It is a potent weapon. But
> So you think that it is OK to call it rape when the woman did not initiate
> women power over men in all sexual situations. If she yells rape, then

Other:  5

> worship death, that intercourse implies rape, etc.). 
> rape like that, they degrade its meaning and desensitize people to the
> and if she consents to these advances, she has been raped.  
> causes rape, she might be just a little bit too far over already...
> could there be for re-defining rape in such broad terms except to give

******** Neutral usage or context unknown:  30 uses ************

On romances:  11

> The rape scenario has to do with avoiding responsibility for sex rather 
> novel.  From what I remember, there seems to be two basic rape scenarios.
> One I'll call 'raped by a rake.'  The rake isn't really a bad guy; he's  
> This scene isn't really rape, because she does want it.  Its a rough, 
> Not the "desires and wishes."  I have plenty of rape fantasies, but I
> be raped.  Now it sounds like your open to a different interpretation.
> primarily feature submission to domination, even rape; 
> because women read books in which the hero rapes the heroine, women  
> have neither a desire nor a wish to be raped.  For that matter, I have
> lot of women fantasize about rape.

On Elle:  4

> toss off and then go rape women.  I mention to her that statistics of
> type of thing causes rape.  She has several friends and she knows it.
> I've been following this subject line (Elle causes rape) for a few days, 
> raped, I can also understand that the Elle calendar offends her, but I

Rape cases: 3

> Well actually, I know several men who have been raped by women.
> I recently read a blurb about a rape case being tried. 
> probably because I was accused of causing rape.  I suppose I should call

I have no idea:  10

> of rape.  Obviously (to me at any rate) this attitude stems from the
> Whether she is talking about bilingual education, date rape,
> is found in lots of rape cases - a condemnation by the first grand jury of
> of rape.  Obviously (to me at any rate) this attitude stems from the
> seems to me that in attempting to exclude rape from accepted 
> are more likely to be attacked -- robbed, raped, murdered --
> sex it i rape-. Do you agree with these?  
> scepticism about when rape occurs.  
> seems to me that in attempting to exclude rape from accepted 
> porno-imbalance thread, and in a rape-free context. It was dropped

Rich's own posts:  3

> My original post made no mention of rape, nor has any subsequent post.
> Now I am incorrectly given ownership of the rape thread, and the 
> things men do deserving consideration is to rape, sexually harrass, have