From: jhk6@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (John H Kim)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: marvel vs. Champions
Date: 20 Aug 92 17:30:09 GMT
Reply-To: jhk6@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (John H Kim)
Organization: Columbia University

jlb@engin.umich.edu (Jeffrey Lawrence Bailey) writes:
>1. GM-moderated character development is what makes Marvel. Modelling them 
>  after a concept is much more effective. I happen to know several ways to 
>  make powers in Champions that are totally campaign-destroying, and the GM 
>  has little recourse against "But the points work!".  For Marvel, the GM 
>  can attach weaknesses and limit powers without point constraints.

	You seem to be of the opinion that having rules to cover a situation 
means that the GM is no longer able to moderate - that having rules turns 
GM's into rule-bound lawyers, whereas without rules they will be judicious, 
consistent, imaginative improvisers. I don't have alot of data on this, 
since I do not know any MSH GM's. However, I do know that I am highly 
flexible as a Champs GM - so it's not utterly impossible. 

	This is largely a matter of the mindsets of the players. It is 
perfectly possible to produce characters in Champions in exactly the same 
way as you are discussing in Marvel - just don't bother to calculate the 
points. Unfortunately, most Champs players and GMs are unwilling to do this. 

	Also, anyone who has payed attention to the campaigning sections of 
Champions knows that it insists on GM regulation of characters, regardless 
of points. The 4th edition has particularly emphasized this, putting markers 
on abusable powers, and giving examples of gross character abuse. 

>
>  For example, Iron Man _clearly_ wears armor.  Yet Champs has no way of
>  expressing this as a focus to be removed, because even as an OIF a character
>  could take a non-combat action to remove the armor, clearly impossible given
>  the character.  But since the focus has been tampered with and used by
>  others, it's equally clear that that's what it is.  Leech (from New Mutants)
>  would clearly have no effect on Iron Man, but in Champs he would.  The
>  definitions you're so proud of limit characters to _exactly_ what those
>  definitions say.

	Well - yes and no. Iron Man's armor is clearly an "Only in Hero ID" 
limitation, and if Leech's powers only work by touching skin, then he should 
take the limitation "Only if touches skin". 
	In general, in Champs, most of these consistency questions should 
be handled in character generation. Of course there will be some questions 
about power interactions which are missed. In that case, the GM has the 
choice to not bother about it and just do what the rules say, or exercise 
his authority to produce a different result. 
	Problems in Champions are usually the result of anal-retentive players 
and bad character design. Good character design in Champions is a difficult 
skill which is partly rules-lawyering and partly concept-balancing. 

>
>  The basic theme I'd like to express is that for an experienced, well-formed,
>cooperating group, any campaign idea is expressible by any system.  Therefore,
>the only real issues when examining a game are:
>  A) Is the game open to newcomers and inexperienced players and GMs?
>  B) Is the game overly-burdened with rules that hinder fast play?

	I think that (A) is a reasonable point, but for experienced players, 
I think that (B) is silly. In MSH, you often must wait for a ruling on how 
a power works. Powers are ill-defined, and there are no guidelines for 
balancing new powers. In Champs - with well-designed characters - you will 
have on your character sheet exactly what your character can do, and the GM 
only has to modify that if he feels like it. The GM is free to ignore the 
rules and decide what happens, or just let the players handle it and not 
spend any time judging. 

	I know that in the DC Heroes game I played in, we were regularly 
stumped by whether someone's reality-ignoring ability let him pass through 
another's wall of water, etc. Champions insists on exactly defining one's 
powers in terms of the effects it produces, and thus handles most of these 
questions early on, so they don't interfere with game play. 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Kim                    | "Remember: a running man may slit a thousand 
jhk6@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu | throats in a single night."
Columbia University         |                           - Klingon proverb
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy