From: rayes@Snake.mcs.kent.edu (Sandra Rayes)
Subject: Re: Fair Swap
Organization: Kent State University
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 06:55:54 GMT

In article <1992Sep13.211401.1@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu> bgdv706@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu (Noam Tractinsky) writes:
>In article <1992Sep11.073925.3382@mcs.kent.edu>, rayes@Snake.mcs.kent.edu (Sandra Rayes) writes:
> 
>> More hogwash.  As I have pointed out innumerable times, but many of you
>> want to close your eyes and plug your ears, Palestinians have a very
>> distinct culture, language, food, etc...from other Arabs.  Cultures 
>> do not become invented over night, but develop over time.  The Arabs
>> of Palestine have identified themselves as Palestinians for at least
>> 2000 years.  
>
>
>	I have asked you several times in the past to provide a
>	reference to the above claim. I have yet to receive
>	one. Meanwhile, i'll keep my healthy skepticism alive.
>
>
NO you have not asked me several times to back the claim the Palestinians
have been identified as such for a least 2 thous. years.  I have posted
several articles discussing cultural differences, and many people
responded to them.

I should have said others (Egyptians, Greeks) referred to the people
of Palestine as Palestinians (Filisteeni).  The best source where
an undisputed ARAB refers to them as Palestinians is in an order
by 'Umar ibn al-Khattab to Abu 'Ubaydah to remove the "Palestine Moslem
Army" from Amwas, due to a plague that had hit the region...this being
in 638, one year after Jerusalem fell to the Muslims.
For the first statement, check out any basic history book, such as
Columbia History of the World; also, Civilizations of the Holy Land
by Paul Johnson.  For the Arabic source, look up Hitti's History of
the Arabs, or Arab History Makers, I am sure the story of 'Umar is
related in these.  Or, if you read Arabic, I can refer you to some
other history sources.

>I have recently talked to an elderly lady and asked her
>> what nationality her parents were....she was stunned and said to me
>> 'Palestinian, what else?'  So I said, 'I mean, what town were they
>> born in?' She said 'The same town I was born in (Tul Karam)...and
>> my grandparents were born there.  Everyone I knew was born there".
>> Hardly sounds like a migrating people.  
>
>
>	With all the respect to the elderly lady, are you talking 
>	2,000 years now?
>
No, with respect to this lady, I am pointing out that the Palestinians
were not in Palestine "temporarily" as your camp tries to contend.
They weren't migrating farmers. Arabs have a tendency (or gift) of
preserving their heritage and family history far better than we
Westerners can.  They can tell you what tribe they are from and
where the tribe originated.  


>
>> In fact, I would point out that Palestinians, on the whole, were 
>> *less* migratory than *other* Arabs.  Other countries, such as
>> Saudi, had and still have very large migrating populations known
>> as badu.  Palestinians, on the other hand, while having some
>> Bedouin clans, were known to be Hadhar (townspeople) who are
>> settled in a single village and Felaheen (farmers) who
>> were tied to their lands.
>
>
>
>	This is absolutely _irrelevant_. It has nothing to do with
>	emigration. 99.99% of the Jews in Israel are either townpeople
>	or farmers. Does that suggest that there was no Jewish 
>	imigration to Palestine/Israel? Nonsense.
>

No it is not irrelevant when you are trying to make the claim that
Palestinians are recent immigrants.  You must understand that in
Arabic, a Hadhar isn't just someone who recently moved to the city
(like the Jews in Israel).  A Hadhar is someone whose family has
been settle in the town for a very long time.  Many Bedouin people
have now moved to citys and town, but they are not called Hadhar now.
They still are referred to as Badu (I know many personally), even 
though some have NEVER lived a nomadic life.  But, because their
families were traditionally nomadic, they are still called Bedouins.
A Hadhar is like the lady I described above, whose parents, grandparents,
etc...all are now buried in Tul Karem, where she was born.

Perhaps some of our Arab posters can elaborate on this. And comparing
Palestinians to Jews is weak, since Jews are for the most part recent
arrivees who are bringing a non-indigenous culture with them.

Sandra.
>
>
>Noam
>
>


From: kingsley@hpwrce.mayfield.hp.com (Kingsley Morse)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 19:37:36 GMT
Subject: Re: FEC and AIPAC in trouble again
Organization: HP Western Response Center