HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen)
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Reply-To: gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen)
Organization: Metrosoft
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 21:33:38 GMT

In article <7785@lib.tmc.edu> jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard)  
writes:
> In article <1992Nov9.094511.11513@jato.jpl.nasa.gov>  
dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov writes:
> [about holding a revote]
> 
> You're doing the only damage that's being done right now. If you'd quit
> damaging the group and implement the expressed will of the net, there  
would
> *be* *no* *damage*.
> 
The damage that's being done right now is that people like yourself are  
posturing so much that we can't discuss the real issue pertaining to  
changing the proposal/voting process.

> My NO vote on a re-renaming would not be out of spite, but rather that I  
would
> object to such a flagrant flouting of the expressed will of the net.

Nice to know you'd be concerning yourself with the actual content of the  
proposal...

-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------
Gordon Van Huizen           vox: 619.488.9411  fax: 619.488.3045
Metrosoft                   gvh@metrosoft.com [NeXTmail welcome]
----------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: graham@cs.washington.edu (Stephen Graham)
Subject: Re: Call for "Straw" Votes: Rec.games.frp.campaign
Organization: Computer Science & Engineering, U. of Washington, Seattle
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 92 18:43:51 GMT

In article <Bxnru1.MLE@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu> cbnorman@cayley.uwaterloo.ca () writes:
>It was stated very clearly that the purpose of the Straw vote is to 
>confirm that their are people interested in this group.  This is being
>done as several people have claimed that no one supports the group.  This
>is despite my announcement that I have received supporting netmail.
>
>How many people are against the group is not relevent to the Straw poll.
>If more than 100 people respond to the Straw, there will be a CFV, even
>if 10,000 people responded "no" to the Straw.  THE STRAW IS NOT A FORMAL
>CFV.

Regardless of your intentions, opponents are going to respond to the straw
poll. If you truly wish it to be valid, you should separate the pro .campaign
votes from the anti .campaign votes. It'll be a trivial effort on your part.
You don't have to even count the anti votes.

There has been a noticeable lack of posted support for r.g.f.campaign.
I only recall two posts in favor. And that's a key indicator of the worth
of a news.group. If there's only one person who feels strongly enough
to post more than once in favor of a group in the face of vocal opposition,
it probably isn't worth creating.
-- 
Stephen Graham
graham@cs.washington.edu	 uw-beaver!june!graham
Xref: sparky news.groups:20522 rec.arts.poems:10972
From: mcoffin@IASTATE.EDU (Marie Coffin)
Newsgroups: news.groups,rec.arts.poems
Subject: Re: vote "no" on rec.arts.poems.urdu
Date: 7 Nov 92 03:54:02 GMT
Article-I.D.: IASTATE.1992Nov6.215402
Reply-To: mcoffin@IASTATE.EDU (Marie Coffin)
Organization: Iowa State University

In article <1992Nov7.032743.19200@blaze.cs.jhu.edu>, surve_n@zebra.cs.jhu.edu
(Naved Ali Surve) writes:
> In article <2794@tau-ceti.isc-br.com> cecilw@access.isc-br.com (Cecil
Williams) writes:
> 
> >	There once was a man from Urdu,
> >	who had something bad on his shoe,
> >	  so he went to his yard,
> >	  and he shuffled real hard,
> >	And tried to wipe off all the...
> >
> >
> >No, maybe not. 
> >
> ><-:<
> >Cecil
> 
> I have said this before.... Urdu is not a place,
> It is a LANGUAGE!!!
> 
> It is pointless discussing this newsgroup as the voting
> period has expired.  I would really like to see the 
> voting results, and if the group was defeated, 
> maybe someone will propose another group which appeals
> to you more.
> 
> -Naved
> 
> 

You know, Cecil, he *does* have a point.  "There once was a man who spoke Urdu"
scans better.  :)


Marie Coffin

> -- 
> Naved A. Surve
> --------------------------
> surve_n@server.cs.jhu.edu
> surve_n@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: tomh@wes.on.ca (Tom Haapanen)
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Organization: Waterloo Engineering Software
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 10:51:01 GMT

dave@elxr.Jpl.Nasa.Gov (Dave Hayes) writes:
> [Note...this is not me but someone who's asked me to post for them.]
> I oppose the name change on the grounds that I don't feel that I was informed
> enough to vote 'no'.  I have been an active participant in r.m.s. for about
> 6 years.  It is the only newsgroup I receive.  I get it by e-mail from a 
> private (unattended) mfeed from BBN (where the person who set it up for me has
> left for anouter job at a non usenet site).  [...]
> John Rossi III

I offered to Dave to (by email) to provide a feed of rec.music.makers.synth
to John Rossi, but Dave really wasn't interested -- getting John a feed
would not appear to further his own private agenda of trying to invalidate
the vote.  

I am, however, prepared to provide that feed by mail -- if Dave is willing
to give out John's userid.

[ \tom haapanen    "i don't even know what street canada is on" -- al capone ]
[ tomh@wes.on.ca                   "trust the programmer" -- ansi c standard ]
[ waterloo engineering software      "to thine own self be true" -- polonius ]
From: fau@po.CWRU.Edu (Francis A. Uy)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.radio.info -> r.r.amateur.info
Date: 5 Nov 1992 15:36:05 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: fau@po.CWRU.Edu (Francis A. Uy)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


I hadn't been following this debate until now.
 I had assumed r.r.info would be about Broadcast
 radio -- the only kind I ever use.

In a previous article, mark@ve6mgs.ampr.org (Mark Salyzyn) says:

>My first draught (hic) or this proposal was `rec.radio.amateur.info'. I felt
>good about this until I meandered through the groups finding information style
>postings and had troubles with the mediocre volume in each group. Combined,
>they still don't add up to unmanageable for moderation or for the readers
>IMHO. Granted, the separation would be `nice', but I feel to costly.

So this group will have nothing to do with
 broadcasting?  

>From my personal opinion, I watch all the rec.radio.* groups, and find

Including r.r.noncomm + r.r.broadcasting?

Should I be feeling snubbed at this point?
-- 
Francis A. Uy			Program Director, WUMD
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: rorschak@daimi.aau.dk (Jesper Lauridsen)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Date: 12 Nov 92 22:24:28 GMT
Organization: Xanth Watch

gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen) writes:

>In article <1992Nov10.214607.25956@daimi.aau.dk> rorschak@daimi.aau.dk  
>(Jesper Lauridsen) writes:

>> You only have to read a single RFD or CFV in your lifetime to learn
>> what that means. 
>> 
>Is there a guideline which states that the acronyms are defined in the  
>contents of the messages they contain? No there isn't.

The vast majorite of CFV has the words "this is a call for votes" somewhere
in the first couple of lines. If not, then the meaning becomes very very
clear later.

>So messages that say "Re: RFD ..." aren't commentary? They certainly  
>aren't the proposals themselves. How many such messages have been posted  
>this week that contain the acronym RFD in their subject?

They _are_ the proposal or should I say proposal prototypes. You don't have
to read a RFD to vote, a CFV would do just fine. 

One of the prominent characteristics of a RFD or a CFV is that their followup
line points followups at news.groups (*). This means that a group sees very 
few messages with RFD in the subject line. As an example take my favourite 
group, rec.sport.soccer, I have seen less than 20 CFVs in that group in the
past 2 years.
-- 
Jesper Lauridsen        |  I survived the rec.arts.sf-lovers split
rorschak@daimi.aau.dk   |
From: hartman@ulogic.UUCP (Richard M. Hartman)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: use a KILLFILE
Date: 5 Nov 92 18:28:58 GMT
Followup-To: news.groups,alt.config
Organization: negligable

In article <1992Nov04.030258.26081@oneb.almanac.bc.ca> kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay) writes:
>I've lost the logic here... seems to me that KILL files do a great deal to
>_reduce_ traffic.... The mutlu example is a good one - my kill files toast
>everything with soc.culture.turkish in the newsgroups line, so he/she/it
>doesn't _exist_ - I don't see all the traffic, don't increase bandwidth by
>flaming and raving about it.... seems to me something's turned around
>here...??

Killfiles prevent you from seeing an article ONCE IT HAS REACHED YOUR
SYSTEM.  It still has to go through the modem if you are getting a UUCP
feed instead of being directly connected to the internet.  I have suggested
once before the need for "remote killfiles" (an extension to the entries
in the sys file?) that would prevent the feed site from sending such
articles over.  Currently the sys file will prevent my feed site from
sending a group (or heirarchy of groups), but there is no way for it
to not send me Hasan B's articles if they are in a group I receive.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
It's not the way that you say it	|
when you do those things to me,		|	-Richard Hartman	
it's more the way you really mean it	|	hartman@uLogic.COM
when you tell me what will be.		|
From: lazlo@triton.unm.edu (Lazlo Nibble)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Date: 9 Nov 92 02:13:48 GMT
Organization: None for me, thanks . . . I'm driving.

gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen) writes:

>> If you see an article with the words RFD or CFV in it, posted to a
>> group you're interested in, then you ignore it at your peril.  
>
> The people that have been unknowing affected by this vote are now
> painfully aware of this.  Why keep bashing us about it?  

Because you continue to insist that the blame for the problem lies with
Rich's RFDs and CFVs instead of with your mistake.  When you give some
evidence of understanding that *you* and only *you* screwed up, people
will stop trying to remind you of it. 

--
Lazlo (lazlo@triton.unm.edu)
From: cbnorman@cayley.uwaterloo.ca ()
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.games.frp.campaign
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 15:11:12 GMT

In article <1dmvqfINNt25@MINERVA.CIS.YALE.EDU> randall-joshua@yale.edu (Joshua Randall) writes:
>In article <1992Nov9.174800.1@wharton.upenn.edu> millerl@wharton.upenn.edu writes:
>But the danger is that the group will pass!  I think that "cbnorman"
>probably has a large contingent of FidoNet readers who will vote "yes"
>to the group regardless of its obvious flaws.
>
This sounds like a post opposing the election of a TV evangelist as president...:)

Seriously though, let me "quell your fears" brother joshua.  I haven't seen
anyone from the Fido AD&D echo in .frp (to my surprise).  A few people have
recognized my name from a module I wrote a few years ago, but no one from 
the AD&D echo has sent me a "hello" message.

Newsgroups: news.groups
From: rorschak@daimi.aau.dk (Jesper Lauridsen)
Subject: Re: Intentional ignorance of newsgroup creation (was Re: *BAD*...)
Organization: Xanth Watch
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 92 15:07:55 GMT

gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen) writes:

>In article <2B0003E2.32D3@tct.com> chip@tct.com (Chip Salzenberg) writes:
>> According to gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen):
>> >They are "open" to people that have a certain amount of "net  
>experience".
>> 
>> Patently false.  It (the "caring" group) is open to anyone who knows
>> how how to participate, and that knowledge is readily available to
>> even the greenest newbie if he will but read news.announce.newusers.
>> 
>Not "Patently false". And I would appreciate it if you could express your  
>opinions and such and not as statement of fact.

If Chip Salzenberg doesn't mind I'll backup his Patently false statement
with some arguments:

It (the "caring" group) is open to anyone who knows
how how to participate, and that knowledge is readily available to
even the greenest newbie if he will but read news.announce.newusers.

That explains clearly why no "net experience" is needed.
-- 
Jesper Lauridsen        |  I survived the rec.arts.sf-lovers split
rorschak@daimi.aau.dk   | 
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: mfltan@ntuix.ntu.ac.sg (Man)
Subject: Re: RFD: soc.culture.singaporean
Organization: The Equator
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 06:13:54 GMT

>Mar Siew Cheong (escmar@ntuix.ntu.ac.sg) wrote:
> Proposed Newsgroup's Name
> =========================
>   soc.culture.singaporean
> 
 Its high time to have a group for the Singaporeans. I support the idea.
 However, I think the proposed newsgroups's name should be 
 "soc.culture.singapore". Easier to call.

Man at The Equator!
Xref: sparky news.groups:20810 rec.games.frp.dnd:6011 rec.games.frp.advocacy:3131 rec.games.frp.misc:7991
From: randall-joshua@yale.edu (Joshua Randall)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: rec.games.frp.campaign -- UNMODERATED
Date: 13 Nov 92 20:01:43 GMT
Organization: Yale University Science & Engineering UNIX(tm), New Haven, CT 06520-2158
NNTP-Posting-Host: minerva.cis.yale.edu

In article <Bxns2t.Mzs@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu> cbnorman@cayley.uwaterloo.ca () writes:
>Please note that effective immediately, rec.games.frp.campaign should be
>considered unmoderated.  This change is due to the opinions of several 
>people that it is impossible to carry on a discussion about campaigns
>in a moderated newsgroup, and campaign discusion is one of the primary
>purpose of r.g.f.campaign.
>
>For those of you who have already participated in the "Straw Vote" for
>campaign, I appologize.  If you wish to retract your support, I will
>remove you from the support list.  Contrarily, if you now wish to 
>support .campaign, netmail me and I will add you to the list.

Ingenious, Bruce!  You cloud the issue so that it is difficult, to say
the least, for anyone to actually indicate support of the lack thereof
of you proposal.

Throw out the group now, and save us all some trouble.

-- 
Joshua E. Randall                       randall-joshua@yale.edu
From: merchant@davidsys.com (Rukhsana Merchant)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: SOC.RELIGION.ISLAM.AHMADIYYA
Date: 6 Nov 92 12:59:46 PST
Organization: DAVID Systems Inc, Sunnyvale CA

In article <1992Nov5.194045.11937@bernina.ethz.ch>, nadeem@igpho (Nadeem Malik) writes:
> merchant@davidsys.com (Rukhsana Merchant) writes:
> : In article <100396@bu.edu>, khalid@bu-bio.bu.edu (Rasheed A. Khalid) writes:
> 
> My dear Miss Rukhsana, you have made the classic errors: (1) reading only

I am not *your* dear Miss anything!!

> : It seems to me the newsgroup already in existence is not used because
> : of the controversy and the labeling of such people as unbelievers.  A 
> : moderated newsgroup would allow the newsgroup to post articles suitable to 
> : propaganda the values of Ahmadiyaa Islam ONLY!
>   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> It has been made clear that this not the case!
> 
Has it? 

> : 
> : A Muslim does not need a title Ahmadiyya added to it to make him a
>                            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> nor do Sunnis need 'Sunni' title etc. These are only labels for distinguishing
> different people.

Yes.  But the Ahmadiyya community refer to their Islam as Ahmadia Islam.  Sunnis
or Shia's dont.

> 
> : Muslim.  He only needs to follow the Sunnah of Prophet Muhammed (SAW)
> : and the Quran to keep to the straight path.  A Muslim is a brother to 
> : another Muslim.  Prophet Muhammed (SAW) has asked us to follow the
> : main group.  Being a Muslim means loving Prophet Muhammed (SAW) most
>   ^^^^^^^^^^
> I think that this only applies to community matters; cannot be applied to
> matters of present day theology because of the hadith above which says that
> 72 out of 73 sects would go to hell!
> 
It is only up to ALLAH (SWT) to judge who will go to hell.

> : among mankind and following his Sunnah.  A muslim == a servant of ALLAH (SWT)
> : and we serve HIM best by following the Sunnah of Prophet Muhammed (SAW).
> : 
> : Rukhsana [a servant of ALLAH (swt)] Merchant
> 
> By the way, you forgot to say Wasalam! (Or maybe you didn't?)
> 
> Waslam,
> Nadeem Malik
> nadeem@p.igp.ethz.ch

The question still remains as to what is the name of the newsgroup going to be,
if at all there is going to be a newsgroup.


Ms. Merchant.
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: rana@rintintin.Colorado.EDU (Nabeel Ahmad Rana)
Subject: Re: pakistan
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 06:27:07 GMT

bx306@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Eugene F. Gross) writes:



>Is there a group dedicated to pakistani culture?


Yes, soc.culture.pakistan  !!!!
check it out!

Sincerely;

-- 
Nabeel A. Rana
rana@rintintin.colorado.edu
LOVE FOR ALL : HATRED FOR NONE.
________________________________________________________________
From: jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Date: 12 Nov 1992 08:33:08 GMT
Organization: UT Health Science Center Houston

In article <1992Nov12.060318.4669@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov writes:
>stanley@skyking.OCE.ORST.EDU (John Stanley) writes:
>>Sorry, Dave. Your forgery falls flat. Democrats.org is a non-existant
>>domain.
>Oh light-en up, for heaven's sake! Can't you tell a joke when you see it?

John Stanley had his sense of humor surgically removed several years ago. I
knew that he'd take your joke the wrong way when I first saw it.

>Sheesh. You'd think some people were really personally involved in this
>flamewar. 

...you mean like the readers of rec.music.synth you keep claiming to
represent?
-- 
Jay Maynard, EMT-P, K5ZC, PP-ASEL | Never ascribe to malice that which can
jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu      | adequately be explained by stupidity.
     We survived Jimmy Carter; we'll (probably) survive Bill Clinton.
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen)
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Reply-To: gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen)
Organization: Metrosoft
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 00:19:20 GMT

In article <BxExLx.8B9@news.orst.edu> stanley@skyking.OCE.ORST.EDU (John  
Stanley) writes:
> In article <1992Nov6.185527.2450@metrosoft.com> gvh@metrosoft.com  
(Gordon Van Huizen) writes:
> >> If it happened because nobody in the group was paying attention -- as
> >> seems to be the case here -- I'd shut up and accept the result.   
Really. 
> >
> >What a completely elitist attitude. If "nobody in the group was paying  
> >attention" were the cause, thank you for pointing out how stupid we all  
> >are here and thank you so much for making our little lives better with  
> >this name change.
> 
> Not paying attention != stupid.
> 
> If you didn't agree with the proposed name change, the time to object
> was when the vote was being held. You are part of that "you" you are
> thanking for the name change -- if you had bothered to vote it might not
> have happened. It happened because you and many others were apathetic
> about it.

Are you new to this thread? 

-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------
Gordon Van Huizen           vox: 619.488.9411  fax: 619.488.3045
Metrosoft                   gvh@metrosoft.com [NeXTmail welcome]
----------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: cbnorman@cayley.uwaterloo.ca ()
Subject: Re: rec.games.frp.campaign
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 21:56:39 GMT

In article <1dsc6vINNqm6@MINERVA.CIS.YALE.EDU> randall-joshua@yale.edu (Joshua Randall) writes:
>In article <BxKsBu.CsL@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu> cbnorman@cayley.uwaterloo.ca () writes:
>[I deleted my post, you can read it, it's the middle one in refs]
>
>>Josh...you question my honesty, I honestly question your intelligence.  I
>>in no way was trying do define what *was* role playing, I gave an example
>>of what was not.
>
>Bruce, you are a genius at not answering questions.  What I asked
>(well, implied, really) was if you had read the FAQ for r.g.f.dnd,
>becuase if you had, you would know that this question--"what is true
>roleplaying"--has already been decided.
>
"What is true roleplaying" has been decided? That's a good one, that goes
in my "Josh Quote Book".


>Now I will ask you some questions:
>

Hey! Relevent questions! Neet!

>(1)  Have you actually ever read r.g.f.dnd?
>
Yes!

>(2)  Have you actually ever read the FAQ from that group?
>

Yes!

>(3)  Have you actually ever read the charter for the r.g.f heirarchy?
>
Yes!

Any more *relevent* questions, Josh?
From: horde@reed.edu (Mr. Heiji Horde)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: question: how do we stop this?
Keywords: reorg, not!
Date: 11 Nov 92 18:18:35 GMT
Organization: Twisted Genius Rehabilitation Center, a Division of MHE

In article <DBA.92Nov10185603@tamu.edu> dbarnett@tamu.edu writes:
>It's traditional to post about 5000 flames during the discussion
>period.  Then he posts a Call For Votes (CFV), and another round of
>flames begin.  Then he posts the results, and the losers claim that
>the vote was invalid and should be ignored, and more flames ensue.
>
>You really can't stop him from posting a CFV is he wants to.  To
>defeat the proposal, your options are:
>
>    1)  Try to persuade him to withdraw the idea.
>    2)  If he proceeds with a CFV, drum up lots of "No" votes.
>    3)  If the proposal wins approval, claim that the vote was
>        invalid and should be ignored, and flame away.

Well, I certainly hope that if the discussion continues to be against the
  creation of the new newsgroups that he doesn't post a CFV. I certainly
  will cry 'foul' if he does. I'll hide behind the guidelines here and
  just note:

# From: tale@uunet.uu.net (David C Lawrence)
# Subject: How to Create a New Usenet Newsgroup
#                                 GUIDELINES FOR USENET GROUP CREATION
#...
#The Vote
#1) AFTER the discussion period, if it has been determined that a new group is
#   really desired, a name and charter are agreed upon, and it has been
#   determined whether the group will be moderated and if so who will
#   moderate it, a call for votes may be posted to news.announce.newgroups and
#...

Right now, I don't see any sort of agreement being reached.
I don't see anyway to stop the CFD, so lets just continue to...discuss it.
  If discussion seems to warrant a CFV and something is agreed on, then
  so be it. Otherwise, let it die.
I for one will vote no based on:
	1) volume doesn't warrant it at the current time
	2) Current INL posts are seasonal (spring, summer, fall). Based on
	   the number of games that are played, I don't see a .inl newsgroup
 	   carrying more than say...30 posts a week during the season.
	3) As someone already said, the .d would be better named .misc.
	4) Also as someone said, there is a mailing list for .programmers
	   (No wonder I haven't seen much about programming going on). I
	   still don't understand why you'd want to moderate such a group
	   concerning discussions on programming anyway. Unless maybe you
	   only want to let people talk about programming in a certain way.
	5) As for the .announce, I usally just really on Tom's monthly(?)
	   posting of the list of servers, sites, and FAQ.

  -KreelScum/KnightRaven

-- 
==============================================================================
  Mr. Heiji Horde   (Unix Systems Programmer, Reed College)   horde@reed.edu
     All insane acts are done in affiliation with Madd Hacker Enterprises
        Disclaimer: "WE are the people our parents warned us about!"
Newsgroups: news.groups