HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: roakes@nyx.cs.du.edu (Rick Oakes)
Subject: Re: Commercial Aviation!
Followup-To: rec.aviation.misc
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Distribution: usa
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 92 16:45:41 GMT

In article <1992Oct03.031842.17768@edsi.plexus.COM> dness@edsi.plexus.COM (David Nesseler) writes:
>Great to see this new group formed. ...BUT..
>To leave out a special group to us Commercial
>avaition people is an injustice!
>How about rec.aviation.commercial
           ^^^          ^^^^^^^^^^

Is this an oxymoron?  Recreational aviation is seldom commercial.
Commercial aviation is only moderately recreational.      IMHO.


--
Rick Oakes				CompuServe:  70475,333
				   Prodigy:  VXNX33A
UUCP:  {boulder, ncar, nbires, isis}!scicom!reo!rick
	or   reo!rick@scicom.alphacdc.com
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.misc,rec.aviation.military
From: cid@athena.mit.edu (Derek H Cedillo)
Subject: Re: Transport crash in Amsterdamn
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 22:37:23 GMT

UPI reports the death toll at 200 and climbing.
40 apartments were absolutely demolished.
The El Al 747 lost two engines shortly after takeoff.
The engines were found nine miles from the crash site.
Many 747 pilots claim it is impossible to recover from dual engine
loss in a 747 without extreme altitude, especially when loaded.
The crew tried to jettison fuel but crashed non the less.
The simply werent high enough to reover.  A similar incidnet occured
with a China Air Lines 747 cargo plain off the coast of tawain I believe.
Both engines lost after take off, plane crashed and demolished all 
5 crew dead.
In anycase, boeing issued a call to check all the pins that hold 
engines in.  This bulletin just came out, but was said to have been on
the board for some time.
Check Clari.news.aviation to keep up with inputs.


Derek
From: rfh3273@galileo.rtn.ca.boeing.com (Dick Harrigill)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.misc
Subject: Re: r.a.student vs. r.a.piloting
Date: 5 Oct 92 15:46:25 GMT
Organization: Boeing Commercial Airplane Group, Seattle

In article <1992Oct2.091645.1@pomona.claremont.edu> jhenderson@pomona.claremont.edu writes:
>How about crossposting them to both .students and .ifr?

How long before we can vote to unsplit rec.aviation?


-- 
Dick Harrigill, an independent voice from:     Boeing Commercial Airplanes 
M/S 9R-49  PO BOX 3707                       Renton Avionics/Flight Systems
Seattle, WA  91824                                  Computing Support
(206) 393-9539    rfh3273@galileo.rtn.ca.boeing.com    CDP, PP-ASEL
From: ron@topaz.bds.com (Ron Natalie)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.misc
Subject: Re: What Constitutes "Cross Country"
Date: 6 Oct 1992 15:51:56 GMT
Organization: BDS Systems
Distribution: na
NNTP-Posting-Host: topaz.bds.com
Keywords: Cross Country,X-country,Legal

> This says that you must ***land*** at a point more than 50nm from the
> original departure point.  You may count the entire flight as cross
> country, regardless of how circuitous a routing or how long the flight
> takes, as long as it can be regarded as a single flight.  (I.e., if you
> flew from A 25nm to B, stayed overnight, and then flew from B 26nm to C,
> and A->C is 51nm, you could not log that as cross-country for these
> purposes because A->B and B->C are different flights.)

But are you saying I can go A->B->C (stopping for fuel at B) and still
count it as cross country for the instrument rating?  It's not that my
plane can't go 50 miles without fuel, but 100LL at B is $1.70/gal and
it's $2.40 at A and $2.10 at C...

-Ron
From: phil@eecs.nwu.edu (William LeFebvre)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.misc
Subject: Re: Unfamiliar phraseologies
Date: 2 Oct 92 15:56:52 GMT
Article-I.D.: eecs.1992Oct2.155652.17994
Organization: EECS Department, Northwestern University

Does anyone else out there, when checking with the airline on the status
of a commercial flight, say something like "what is the status of united
four-one-seven"?

Or do you notice that you are more apt to repeat phone numbers when
someone else gives you one over the phone?

Imagine a casual dinner conversation.  Might it go like this?

Bob: "Say, Joe Controller, what's your home phone number?"

Joe: "555-1234"

Bob: "555-1234?"

Joe: "readback is correct".

:-)  :-)  :-)

		Bill
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.misc
From: shafer@rigel.dfrf.nasa.gov (Mary Shafer)
Subject: Re: Amsterdam crash a new record?
Organization: NASA Dryden, Edwards, Cal.
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 16:50:59 GMT

On 6 Oct 92 13:48:14 GMT, ritter@claude.ma30.bull.com (Roger Ritter) said:

Roger> So on the macabre side, does this set a new record for people killed
Roger> on the ground by an air crash?  Assuming that the final death toll is
Roger> over 200, as currently feared.

No.  More people died on the ground in Tenerife, when two 747s
collided in fog.

Actually, almost everyone killed in an air crash dies on the ground.

To answer your real question, is this a record for "innocent
bystander" deaths?, I think so.  The numbers that I remember floating
around at the time of Cerritos were much smaller.

--
Mary Shafer  DoD #0362 KotFR NASA Dryden Flight Research Facility, Edwards, CA
shafer@rigel.dfrf.nasa.gov                    Of course I don't speak for NASA
 "There's no kill like a guns kill." LCDR "Hoser" Satrapa, gunnery instructor
                       "A kill is a kill."  Anonymous
From: rfh3273@galileo.rtn.ca.boeing.com (Dick Harrigill)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.misc
Subject: Re: r.a.student vs. r.a.piloting
Date: 5 Oct 92 15:52:52 GMT
Organization: Boeing Commercial Airplane Group, Seattle

In article <1992Oct2.091645.1@pomona.claremont.edu> jhenderson@pomona.claremont.edu writes:
>How about crossposting them to both .students and .ifr?

If everything gets cross posted, it defeats the purpose of splitting
the newsgroup and will create more files to sort through.

Once a message is crossposted, even if the subject deviates, most
replies continue to be crossposted because people in general do
not worry about the groups when they reply.  How many times have
we seen posts in rec.aviation that belong in alt.bake.cookies
or rec.motorcycle.mammas simply because of cross posting?


-- 
Dick Harrigill, an independent voice from:     Boeing Commercial Airplanes 
M/S 9R-49  PO BOX 3707                       Renton Avionics/Flight Systems
Seattle, WA  91824                                  Computing Support
(206) 393-9539    rfh3273@galileo.rtn.ca.boeing.com    CDP, PP-ASEL
From: lee@bluefuzz.sw.stratus.com (Lee Cooprider)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.misc
Subject: Flying to Grand Manan (Canada)
Date: 3 Oct 92 03:16:35 GMT
Organization: Stratus Computer, Software Engineering

I am planning to fly to Grand Manan, off the coast of Maine, next weekend.
Going Friday afternoon, returning Sunday.  I was sure that I had two or three
articles in my stacks on regulations for flying into Canada, but I haven't
been able to find them.

I would love a) a pointer to an article in AOPA Pilot or Flying that covers
the topics, b) any blurbs you have saved from posting to a "flying to Canada"
thread in the past, or c) (if you live around Boston) a copy of the AOPA
brochure on traveling to Canada that I could borrow.
-- 
Lee W. Cooprider				PP-ASEL/IA
Lee_Cooprider@vos.stratus.com			Skylane N2908F "Wiley"
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.misc,rec.aviation.military
From: ins894r@aurora.cc.monash.edu.au (Aaron Wigley [Wigs])
Subject: Transport crash in Amsterdamn
Organization: Monash University
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 22:23:04 GMT

Overheard on the news this morning, 
An transport from Israel has crashed into a 9 story apartment building
in Amsterdamn. Current death toll was reported to be well over 200.
I have no further references/news reports yet, but I hope to post the
article from todays newspaper..

*yawn*, now time to wake up ..

The Wigs of Oz,
Aaron Wigley
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.misc
From: jerrys@btree.uucp (Jerry Samsen)
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 92 00:15:41 GMT
Organization: Brooktree Corporation
Subject: Re: Unfamiliar phraseologies
Summary: 
Followup-To: 
Organization: Brooktree Corporation, San Diego
Keywords: 

In article <1992Oct2.155652.17994@eecs.nwu.edu> phil@eecs.nwu.edu (William LeFebvre) writes:
>Does anyone else out there, when checking with the airline on the status
>of a commercial flight, say something like "what is the status of united
>four-one-seven"?

Except that standard phrasiology for air carrier flights is "United four
seventeen"

J Samsen
Brooktree Corp.



Newsgroups: rec.aviation.misc,rec.aviation.military
From: edwin@cs.ruu.nl (Edwin Kremer)
Subject: Re: Transport crash in Amsterdamn
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 20:40:12 GMT
Organization: Utrecht University, Dept. of Computer Science

In <1992Oct6.125416.404@ghost.dsi.unimi.it> cotrozzi@ghost.dsi.unimi.it
(Massimo Cotrozzi) writes:

   | due to very bad wheather conditions the fuel didn't fall on the ground so
   | rapidly on the second turn over the place where they left the fuel the
   | aeroplane flew into the cloud of fuel and exploded

Nonsense! First of all, the wheather conditions were excellent.  Second,
the  captain decided to drop fuel on the *second* (and last) right turn.
Last, the plane did *not* explode in the air. Just facts...


						--[ Edwin ]--
-- 
Edwin H. Kremer, systems- and network manager.    [NIC-Whois handle: EHK3]
  Department of Computer Science,    Utrecht University,   The Netherlands
  Internet: Edwin.Kremer@cs.ruu.nl   NeXTmail: Edwin.Kremer@edge.cs.ruu.nl
  X.400   : G=Edwin;S=Kremer;OU=cs;O=ruu;PRMD=surf;ADMD=400net;C=nl
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.misc,rec.aviation.military
From: ins894r@aurora.cc.monash.edu.au (Aaron Wigley [Wigs])
Subject: Transport crash in Amsterdamn
Organization: Monash University
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 02:27:34 GMT
Cancel: <1992Oct5.222304.21702@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au>


Newsgroups: rec.aviation.misc
From: jhenderson@pomona.claremont.edu
Subject: Re: r.a.student vs. r.a.piloting
Followup-To: rec.aviation.misc
Organization: Pomona College
Date: 2 Oct 92 09:16:45 PDT

In article <WD.92Oct2114122@sam.cs.tu-berlin.de>, wd@cs.tu-berlin.de (Wolfgang Diestelkamp) writes:
> 
> How about instrument student experiences then ?
> Are they supposed to go into rec.aviation.ifr ?

How about crossposting them to both .students and .ifr?
______________________________________________________________________________
Javier Henderson, N6VBG         | Beat the 55mph limit (legally):
jhenderson@pomona.claremont.edu | Learn to fly!
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.misc
From: hrose@psych.mun.ca (Herbert Rose)
Subject: aviation companies
Summary: seaching for list of aviation companies
Keywords: aviation companies
Organization: Memorial University of Newfoundland
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 19:53:38 GMT

  I am looking for a list of aviation companies and their addresses; 
  ie places that build and design aircraft.  Either individual company
  addresses or the name of a published list would be appreciated.
  Please e-mail me any information you may have. Thanks.

  Tonya
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.misc
From: mspace@netcom.com (Brian Hall)
Subject: NWAA
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 22:49:59 GMT

Does anyone have a phone number, email, or postal address for NorthWest
Aero Associates?  In the mid-80's they produced flight planning software
such as Checker Flight Plan and Checker Short Plan (and for all I know,
they still do).

-- 

 \ | /   | Brian Hall                 mspace@netcom.com
 - : -   | Mark/Space Softworks       Applelink: markspace
  /|\    |                            America Online: MarkSpace
 |-+-|   |
/-\|/-\  | The tornado ate my powerbook.
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.misc
From: geoff@peck.com (Geoff Peck)
Subject: Re: Commercial Aviation!
Organization: Geoffrey G. Peck, Consultant, San Jose CA
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1992 01:20:20 GMT

In article <1992Oct03.031842.17768@edsi.plexus.COM> dness@edsi.plexus.COM
(David Nesseler) writes:
> Great to see this new group formed. ...BUT..  To leave out a special group
> to us Commercial avaition people is an injustice!  How about
> rec.aviation.commercial There are so many issues to address in such a
> group I could go on for hours...like..  FAA regs and scrutiny airframe
> specifics powerplant specifics and just to have a forum to get information
> on your specific problem. EX:  Ghosting problem and the Dallas bumpup" in
> TCAS

There are a number of possible specialty groups which were left out of the
new set of groups which constitute rec.aviation.  After we have some
experience as to what seems to be missing, individuals can propose new
groups.

Until additional groups appear, articles which have no clear "home" should
be sent to rec.aviation.misc.  If a substantial number of articles which
could be grouped together in a new newsgroup are present in
rec.aviation.misc, and these articles aren't just isolated bursts, that
would indicate sufficient interest to justify a new newsgroup.

I would suggest that we wait about six months for the new rec.aviation
structure to "settle in" before any additional newsgroups are proposed.

						Geoff
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.misc
From: acampane@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Angelo Campanella)
Subject: Re: Welcome to the New rec.aviation!
Summary: Aircaft Owning
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1992 03:45:05 GMT


Nice to see this channel starting.

I'm a Mooney 201 owner.

Lots of tales to tell, but I guess this is more for constructive discussions.

Most recent nuisance is pressure transducers that keep failing.  It seems that
the old days of simple direct-reading bourdon gauges is gone.  Now the GAMA
folks just love to put in remote sensors that have resitor wiper "transducers"
as the information transfer medium.  This is ture for fuel pressure and oil 
pressure.

Trouble is that no one in GAMA ever went through the trouble of
developing a wiper mechanism that is immune to vibration.  I don't know whether
to laugh or cry ehn I think of the sequence of evolution of oil pressure
readouts on the Mooney.

I guess in days gone by, there was just a plain pressure tap on the crankcase
and then a capillary tube to an instrument-panel mounted bourdon gauge.  Maybe
a rash of broken capillaries caused oil loss in flight, so they replaced said
capilary with a wire, relying on a variable resistance transducer to provide 
the action.  Then, in Mooney, at least, it became unpopular to mount that
transducer (about a 1-1/2" cylinder) directly on the crankcase, so the 
manufacturers outrigged it on a short rubber hose.  The transducer is then held 
with a hose clamp which can waggle quite a bit during normal engine operation 
due to normal engine vibration.

This shaking prematureky 'ages' the wiper mechanism, and after a year or two of
use, the wiper, or wire-holding card, fail or at least get erratic.

My mechanic tells me that the transducers are made by west German aouto 
manufacfturers.  This explains the short life since aut engines don't 
exeperinece the same amount of vibrations as found in light aircraft.


Anybody nave any more thoughts?
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.misc
From: venky@thelonious.bellcore.com (G A Venkatesh)
Subject: Toyota and General Aviation
Followup-To: rec.aviation.misc
Reply-To: venky@thelonious.bellcore.com (G A Venkatesh)
Organization: Bellcore, Morristown NJ
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 92 16:04:57 GMT


This is from a wire report:

When Kiichiro Toyoda decided to get into the auto business, he started the
groundwork by opening a driving school. Now Hisamitsu Shimada, chief of 
Toyota's aviation division would like to do the same for aviation by opening
a flying school to turn out customers for its products. He would like to build
an affordable prop plane for commuters. Eventually, he envisages a heli-car
for the late 21st century with retractable rotor blades in the roof of all
Toyota vehicles.

But for now, the ambitions are much smaller. Toyota is designing piston engines
for aviation use and testing them at its Mojave Desert site in California. It 
is also starting a flying school in Hokkaido island and scouting and buying up 
land in Japan and the US for small airports and heliports.

Toyota has applied to construct an airport in Wickenberg, AZ and upgrading its
airport operation at Long Beach, CA.

Toyota's humble starts are already raising eyebrows in US aviation industry
including commercial aviation industry. But Shimada insists that Toyota has
no interest right now in commercial aviation. It is primarily focused at
reviving the dying US small plane market. Shimada has refused to divulge
how much Toyota is spending on aviation and how large a market it hopes to
create.

venky
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.misc,rec.aviation.military
From: cotrozzi@ghost.dsi.unimi.it (Massimo Cotrozzi)
Subject: Re: Transport crash in Amsterdamn
Organization: Computer Science Dep. - Milan University
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 12:54:16 GMT

Hi, I heard that about 250 people died for the crash ....
that's horrible ! and what's worse tjhey don't know what happened...
My father is an air traffic controller here in Milan and with some
friends at work and some pilots tried to explain me what could be happened:
It's highly probable that the plane had two engines broken * on the same side *
( you will not find another case like this in another billion cases )
then the pilot tried to fly back to the airport and tried to empty the tanks;
due to very bad wheather conditions the fuel didn't fall on the ground so rapidly
on the second turn over the place where they left the fuel the aeroplane flew into
the cloud of fuel and exploded  because of the two engines that were burning ..
I really hope it was just an accident and it was not intentional...

Massimo
-- 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
!  /|/|  /| \ /  ! Massimo Cotrozzi  Computer Science Dept. Milan Italy  !
! /   | /-|  \   ! cotrozzi@ghost.dsi.unimi.it      			 !
!/    |/  | / \  ! massimo@cdc835.cdc.polimi.it	                         !
From: hdnea@usho92.hou281.chevron.com (David Neal)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.misc
Subject: Re: Unfamiliar phraseologies
Date: 2 Oct 92 15:13:53 GMT
Organization: Chevron

In article <1992Oct2.005436.25940@jupiter.sun.csd.unb.ca> q1hl@jupiter.sun.csd.unb.ca (Nameless CS Student) writes:
>In article <1431@systech.com> ken@systech.com (Ken Brown) writes:
>>I have often wondered whether controllers bring their work related
>>speech patterns home with them.
>	[A silly example]
>>A silly example, admittedly, but do you controllers on the net find
>>yourselves saying 'correction' and 'negative' when talking with non
>>aviation friends, neighbors, etc.?
>
>Negative.
>
Man is worried his wife is having an affair with his best friend
the ATP.

He confronts her, she denies it.

The accusations and denials go on sporadically for several months.


Finally, the wife is so frustrated she says..


"If I told you once, I told you niner thousand times, negative
 on the affair!"

>--
>Chris Rasley
>PP-SEL (+night), Glider (student), ATC (CYFC)


-- 
David Neal -- hdnea@hou281.chevron.com 
Conserve water, California's deserts need more cotton farms.
Barbie says, Take quaaludes in gin and go to a disco right away!
 But Ken says, WOO-WOO!!  No credit at ``Mr. Liquor''!!
From: raveling@Unify.com (Paul Raveling)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
Subject: Re: Stay off the rudder!
Date: 5 Oct 92 20:27:19 GMT
Organization: Unify Corporation (Sacramento)

In article <BvGr1r.9GK@taligent.com>, cep@taligent.com (Christophe Pettus) writes:
> 
> Rudder doesn't cause an airplane to spin.  A yaw and a stall does.  You
> can have more than enough yaw for a spin with zero rudder input in a
> great many aircraft.

	If you're already at high AOA some types of aircraft will be
	delighted to spin even without a yaw.  Just plunk in a lot
	of aileron, increasing AOA on one wing tip past stall AOA,
	and watch the wing drop.

	Of course this immediately generates a pro-spin yaw due to two or
	or three factors, and technically just dropping the wing isn't
	an entire spin entry, though some airframes will let it become
	a spin.  Design traits that can assist an incipient spin in this
	way are reduced washout at the wingtips, a tapered wing planform,
	long wings, and relatively large ailerons.  All of those apply
	to the Schweizer 2-32 sailplane, which can easily drop that wing
	with little warning to signal "thermaling too slow, too much
	aileron".


------------------
Paul Raveling
Raveling@Unify.com
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
From: venky@thelonious.bellcore.com (G A Venkatesh)
Subject: Re: Simultaneous Use (Re: Long Runway -- No Taxiway)
Keywords: landing, taxi, aircraft
Reply-To: venky@thelonious.bellcore.com (G A Venkatesh)
Organization: Bellcore, Morristown NJ
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 92 19:52:42 GMT

In article <1992Sep27.090650.4187@cactus.org> rdd@cactus.org (Robert Dorsett) writes:
>In article <1CE00001.oumrud@lemoore.UUCP> Kevin@lemoore.ati.com writes:
>> .... about landing long on a runway with no taxiway
>
>Speaking of which: isn't there an FAR which prohibits unauthorized
>simultaneous use of a runway?  I.e., only one airplane at a time?  
>I could've sworn I read this one some time, but haven't been able to
>dig it up in part 91 or the AIM, on several occasions...
>

It should be the responsibility of the landing aircraft to not land if
there is a plane still on the active runway. I have been stuck at the
end of the runway with no taxiway just once and I decided to wait for one
plane to land before I taxied back. In general, if I did find myself at the 
end of the roll-out on a runway with no taxiway and there was traffic behind 
me, my decision process would probably be guided as follows. Contrary views
welcome. Flames will be ignored.

1. If there seems to be a "grass" taxiway, I'll take it (unless there is
a reason to suspect that it may be unsafe). But I'll not try to create
my own taxiway.

2. If there was a run-up area (or a safe area off the active where I can
wait) anywhere in front of me and the traffic behind me on final is too close 
for me to backtaxi, I'll go and wait at the runup area as a *matter of 
courtesy*. 

3. But if I think I am going to be stuck there for more than two planes, 
I won't. I'll *announce* that I'll be backtaxiing on the active and do it. 
Someone has to go around if the traffic is that tight, might as well be the 
first one. And I would not try to taxi at the edge although I would keep
an eye out to turn-off if for any reason a plane did land. If a plane insists 
on landing while I am taxiing back, I would be annoyed.

Having said that, if I was on final when the plane in front of me started
to backtaxi, I would go around. If the traffic pattern was tight, I would
think of it as perfectly normal. If I was the only plane on final and
the other plane could have waited at the runup, I would just form an
uncomplimentary opinion of the other pilot and forget it.

venky
Xref: sparky rec.aviation:16296 rec.aviation.misc:5