HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: johnb@searchtech.com (John Baldwin)
Newsgroups: fj.mail-lists.x-window
Subject: Re: GUIs Considered Harmful
Date: 6 Sep 92 09:46:16 GMT
Distribution: fj
Organization: Search Technology, Inc.

Date: 3 Sep 92 15:02:41 GMT
Message-Id: <1992Sep3.150241.26096@searchtech.com>
Newsgroups: alt.religion.computers,comp.windows.misc,comp.windows.news,comp.windows.x,comp.human-factors

In article <1992Aug30.155725.3241@kilowatt.uucp>
	root@kilowatt.UUCP (Kilowatt admin) writes:

>	Sorry to sound like I'm flaming, but I've been harrassed with Object
>Oriented Programming brochures in the mail, et al. Don't see how someone else
>can setup a GUI that would represent what I have in my head. Or are they
>improving, and allowing the user to define a lot of things? Talking out of
>my hat again?


   Huh?  Since when does (Object_Oriented == GUI) ?


   And previously...


>I agree, the average person can get a LOT done with OOP, but that's the
>average person. From what I've seen and read, I'd rather hack C code and
>use less resources in the mean time.


   Not in my experience.  
   
   The "average person" (not my term --- the "average person" does not
   program!) gets lost pretty quickly when beginning with a typical OOP
   language or design metaphor.  For one example, there is an awful lot
   of C-ish C++ code lying around.  The telltale signs: static functions
   which should have been private methods; passing structure arguments
   (whether by pointer or by value) instead of defining a new class.
   Ad infinitum.



FINAL POINT:

   Look at the "Newsgroups" line above.  Now look at the "Followup" line.
   The bulk of this conversation thread DOES NOT belong on comp.human-factors.
   Some of it does, and should be split off to a new thread.  In NO case
   does this thread merit being spread throughout so many groups.  Can
   we all be a little more careful to prune the distribution lines down
   and reduce the net bandwidth, please?


-- 
John Baldwin                                        johnb@searchtech.com
Search Technology, Inc.                             uupsi!srchtec!johnb
4725 Peachtree Corners Circle, Suite 200            johnb@srchtec.uucp
Norcross, Georgia  30092   USA
From: barmar@think.com (Barry Margolin)
Newsgroups: fj.mail-lists.x-window
Subject: Re: ld: -ldl: No such file or directory (help needed)
Date: 6 Sep 92 09:25:55 GMT
Distribution: fj
Organization: Thinking Machines Corporation, Cambridge MA, USA

Date: 5 Sep 1992 06:10:34 GMT
Message-Id: <189j0qINNan9@early-bird.think.com>
Newsgroups: comp.windows.x

In article <1992Sep4.171230.28317@athena.cs.uga.edu> greg@athena.cs.uga.edu (Greg Whitlock) writes:
>gcc -fstrength-reduce -fpcc-struct-return -o xgopher xgopher.o list.o util.o misc.o net.o  gui.o options.o help.o  panel.o save.o text.o error.o cso.o index.o  KeyWSink.o -g   -L/usr/local/X/export/sparc/lib -L/usr/lib -lXaw -lXmu -lXt -lXext -lX11  -ldl -B/usr/bin/
>ld: -ldl: No such file or directory
...
>Someone suggested that -l looks only at *.a files in /usr/lib.  If so,
>how would I solve this problem?

Your GCC must be configured to use its own linker rather than /usr/bin/ld.
The GNU linker doesn't know how to link dynamic libraries, and Sun only
ships libdl in its dynamic form.

The solution is to compile the program mit/util/dlsym.c from the X11R5
distribution, and link this into your program in place of -ldl.

Another solution is to use cc instead of gcc to link your programs.
-- 
Barry Margolin
System Manager, Thinking Machines Corp.

barmar@think.com          {uunet,harvard}!think!barmar
From: mouse@thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu (der Mouse)
Newsgroups: fj.mail-lists.x-window
Subject: Re: HELP! XSetWindowAttributes and XSetWMHints
Date: 7 Sep 92 19:49:18 GMT
Distribution: fj
Organization: McGill Research Centre for Intelligent Machines

Date: Mon, 7 Sep 92 17:36:29 GMT
Message-Id: <1992Sep7.173629.13755@thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.windows.x

In article <1992Sep4.084114.2596@mailhost.ocs.mq.edu.au>, s8923098@macnab.mqcs.mq.oz.au (Josef WIDJAJA) writes:
> In article <1992Sep4.015632.947@mailhost.ocs.mq.edu.au> s8923098@macnab.mqcs.mq.oz.au (Josef WIDJAJA) writes:
>> [drawing works when, and only when, window is set override-redirect.]
> I think I now know why.  When the override_redirect is set to False,
> the Window Manager redraws the window generating an Expose event.
> Upon receving this event, the image has to be redrawn.

Yes and no.

The window manager never redraws the window.  Redrawing your window is
entirely up to you.  The Expose event always happens, and it is
generated by the server when the window is first displayed.  It's just
that when your window is override-redirect, this happens immediately
upon the window being mapped; when not, the WM makes the user position
it, delaying the actual mapping and thus the Expose.  You didn't
include enough of your program to be sure, but I suspect that you were
blindly charging ahead and drawing without waiting for the Expose.
This worked when, and only when, the window was actually mapped
immediately after your program requested that it be mapped.

That's the no part.  The yes part is that yes, you have to redraw upon
receiving Expose events, so even if the reasoning is wrong, the
conclusion is right.

					der Mouse

			    mouse@larry.mcrcim.mcgill.edu
From: kale@aelle.cs.odu.edu (Vijay S. Kale)
Newsgroups: fj.mail-lists.x-window
Subject: Printing from the Drawing Area
Date: 10 Sep 92 07:58:00 GMT
Distribution: fj
Organization: Old Dominion University

Date: 9 Sep 92 19:53:25 GMT
Message-Id: <1992Sep9.195325.27644@cs.odu.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.windows.x,comp.windows.x.motif,comp.graphics


Hi Folks,

  I would like to know if there is any way to print the drawing from
  the drawing area other then by making a postscript file and sending
  it to the printer.

  Is it possible to consider the printer as a file and directly write/
  draw on to it as if we are drawing on the terminal.

  Will appreciate very much any info/pointers.

  Thanks.

..Vijay
From: mellon@ncd.com (Ted Lemon)
Newsgroups: fj.mail-lists.x-window
Subject: Re: GUIs Considered Harmful
Date: 5 Sep 92 04:10:36 GMT
Distribution: fj
Organization: Workstation Div., Supermicro Systems Group, Sony Corporation

Date: 2 Sep 92 21:31:29 GMT
Message-Id: <mellon.715469489@pepper>
Newsgroups: alt.religion.computers,comp.windows.misc,comp.windows.news,comp.windows.x,comp.human-factors

peirce@outpost.SF-Bay.org (Michael Peirce) writes:
>> In article <1992Aug31.145609.17818@dcatlas.dot.gov>, joet@dcatlas.dot.gov (Joe Trott) writes:
>> 
>> >Whose desk is clean enough, 100% (or close) of the time in order to use a
>> >Rat?
>I'd say my mouse doesn't move more than about two inches in any direction,
>my arm doesn't really move just my hand - and yes, I have a large screen
>area, one 16" monitor plus a portrait monitor.

>It's all standard Apple Macintosh equipment.

Hm.   I use a Logitech TrackBeing (actually, they call it a TrackMan, but
I prefer to use a less xenophobic term), and it works quite well.   This
is their new device, which came out fairly recently, and it's shaped so that
one can comfortably lay one's hand down on it and mouse around with the thumb,
while selecting with three fingers.   It never moves at all, and I can even
use it if there's junk piled up on it.   Win, win.

BTW, I don't work for, and have never worked for Logitech - I'm just a
fairly satisfied customer (I don't like their mice, so I'm not completely
satisfied).

				_MelloN_
--
mellon@ncd.com						uunet!lupine!mellon
Member, League for Programming Freedom | To learn how software patents could
cost you your right to program, contact the LPF - league@prep.ai.mit.edu
From: oj@miki.pictel.com (Oliver Jones)
Newsgroups: fj.mail-lists.x-window
Subject: Re: stop dirty pictures.. how?
Date: 12 Sep 92 19:32:54 GMT
Distribution: fj
Organization: PictureTel Corporation

Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 14:16:51 GMT
Message-Id: <1992Sep11.141651.3491@miki.pictel.com>
Newsgroups: comp.windows.x

In article <1992Sep9.183227.1533@lub001.lamar.edu> ravi@lub001.lamar.edu writes:

>Somebody can display some "junk" on your workstation when he sets his DISPLAY
>variable to any other Workstation's IP address. Can this be stopped?

Read up on "xhost" and "xauth".
From: barmar@think.com (Barry Margolin)
Newsgroups: fj.mail-lists.x-window
Subject: Re: GUIs Considered Harmful
Date: 10 Sep 92 05:29:26 GMT
Distribution: fj
Organization: Thinking Machines Corporation, Cambridge MA, USA

Date: 9 Sep 1992 16:44:47 GMT
Message-Id: <18l9lvINNgn7@early-bird.think.com>
Newsgroups: alt.religion.computers,comp.windows.misc,comp.windows.news,comp.windows.x,comp.human-factors

In article <id.P72T.O1C@ferranti.com> peter@ferranti.com (peter da silva) writes:
>Or unless you're running Microsft Windows. In which case you can step
>through the menus selecting the underlined letters with the ALT key
>depressed. It's amazingly handy. I wonder why nobody else has picked it
>up. Does Microsoft have a patent on it or something?

It was copied in Motif.  I've used other menu systems that used a similar
mechanism, such as the menu system in Applix's Alis office automation
system.  Except for the graphics editor, I think you can do everything in
Alis using the keyboard if you want to.  Menus have accelerators, and items
in lists can be selected by typing item numbers or using arrow keys to move
through them.
-- 
Barry Margolin
System Manager, Thinking Machines Corp.

barmar@think.com          {uunet,harvard}!think!barmar
From: ebina@void.uiuc.edu (Eric Bina)
Newsgroups: fj.mail-lists.x-window
Subject: Re: Finding the installed colormap
Date: 6 Sep 92 09:20:43 GMT
Distribution: fj
Organization: NCSA

Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 20:10:26 GMT
Message-Id: <Bu2LDI.Izw@news.cso.uiuc.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.windows.x

In article <1992Sep4.100336.19689@thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu>, mouse@thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu (der Mouse) writes:
|> 
|> Now that I've just told you you can't do what you want for two
|> different reasons, I'll tell you how to do what you want.  Well, not
|> really, but I'll tell you how to do what you asked for.  It's called
|> XListInstalledColormaps.
|> 
|> 					der Mouse
|> 
|> 			    mouse@larry.mcrcim.mcgill.edu

I know about, and have been using XListInstalledColormaps, but on the SGI it seems
to be worthless.

Has anyone out there ever grabbed a portion of an SGI screen and gotten the
colors right?  If so, how?

	Eric Bina
	ebina@ncsa.uiuc.edu
From: object@ibmpcug.co.uk (Ken Tough)
Newsgroups: fj.mail-lists.x-window
Subject: Samsung 1640x1280 MDA1971 monitor & DGIS
Date: 6 Sep 92 09:54:51 GMT
Distribution: fj
Organization: The IBM PC User Group, UK.

Date: 3 Sep 92 19:31:03 GMT
Message-Id: <Bu0ovs.Mu8@ibmpcug.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.terminals,comp.periphs,comp.windows.ms,comp.windows.x,connect.audit

Does anyone have any experience with SAMSUNG DGIS very-high
resolution monitors?  We do, and they've been bad experiences.

The DGIS DOS driver we have does not work with Windows 3.1 and
XVISION (from VisionWare).  In fact it causes XVISION installation
to crash with a stack fault.  If you happen to already have 
XVISION installed, switching to the DGIS driver can cause a
serious crash with loss of many (unrelated) files from your
hard-disk. 

Has anyone had success with the monitor?  Can you help us out?

By the way, in the two-monitor configuration (one SAMSUNG as
graphics, one VGA as text) the SAMSUNG board does not always 
boot on reset.  (This is mounted on a 486 AST PC/AT, by the
way.)
From: marauder@wam.umd.edu (Joe Jacobson)
Newsgroups: fj.mail-lists.x-window
Subject: Re: GUIs Considered Harmful
Date: 10 Sep 92 02:33:48 GMT
Distribution: fj
Organization: ---University of Maryland, College Park---

Date: 9 Sep 92 04:34:46 GMT
Message-Id: <1992Sep9.043446.17852@wam.umd.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.religion.computers,comp.human-factors,comp.windows.misc,comp.windows.news,comp.windows.x

It's obvious you people haven't seen God's gift to GUI's: namely NeXTSTEP.
(That's the GUI for the NeXT's computers.  Steve Jobs second gift to the world;
the first being Macintosh, of course).

I've been using NeXTSTEP for two years now, and I've got to admit that I've 
never seen a more powerful, versatile, awe-inspiring GUI ever.  After using
NeXTSTEP, you yawn at Motif, grudgingly use a Mac, and look w/ contempt on 
Windows.

Simply, NeXTSTEP provides the simplicity of the Mac, over the power of UNIX.
It's not a question of what can you do with NeXTSTEP, but how to go about doing
it.  (Granted, that's a bit of a brain-teaser in some cases.  It took me three
weeks to figure out that a <control> drag sybolically linked files.

A GUI isn't harmful.  It's simply a tool to ease your use of the computer, to
improve efficency.  If you find differently, then it's probably the case that
you have a poorly made GUI.


				Joe
				marauder@wam.umd.edu

Opinions expressed here are solely my own.

-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------
*   Joe Jacobson             |   "It doesn't matter               *
*   marauder@wam.umd.edu     |       what we do, as long as       *
*   NeXT mail accepted!      |          innocent people suffer."  *
From: s8923098@macnab.mqcs.mq.oz.au (Josef WIDJAJA)
Newsgroups: fj.mail-lists.x-window
Subject: Re: HELP! XSetWindowAttributes and XSetWMHints
Date: 5 Sep 92 02:15:42 GMT
Distribution: fj
Organization: Macquarie University, School of Mathematics, Physics, Computing and Electronics

Date: 4 Sep 92 08:41:14 GMT
Message-Id: <1992Sep4.084114.2596@mailhost.ocs.mq.edu.au>
Newsgroups: comp.windows.x

In article <1992Sep4.015632.947@mailhost.ocs.mq.edu.au> s8923098@macnab.mqcs.mq.oz.au (Josef WIDJAJA) writes:
|
|I am a novice trying to do some simple X Window programming.
|
|I am trying to put an image (using XPutImage) or a drawing
|(eg. using XFillRectangle) into a Window. So far, the image/
|drawing can be displayed if I set the override_redirect field
|in the XSetWindowAttributes structure for my window to True.
|When this is set to True, however, the Window Manager cannot
|put decorations and borders around that window. 
|
|When I set the override_redirect to False, which means that the 
|Window Manager can now sorround the window with borders and 
|decorations, the image/drawing is not displayed.
|

I think I now know why. When the override_redirect is set to
False, the Window Manager redraws the window generating
an Expose event. Upon receving this event, the image has to be
redrawn.



--
 _________Josef Widjaja____________  
|  s8923098@mackay.mpce.mq.edu.au  |
|  Macquarie University, Australia | 
|__________________________________|
From: elvis@cats.ucsc.edu (Craig Filip Schiavone)
Newsgroups: fj.mail-lists.x-window
Subject: Q: Are Xt widgets compatible with the Sun OpenWin/Look environment?
Date: 10 Sep 92 12:16:17 GMT
Distribution: fj
Organization: University of California; Santa Cruz

Date: 9 Sep 1992 19:55:35 GMT
Message-Id: <18lkrnINN6k5@darkstar.UCSC.EDU>
Newsgroups: comp.windows.x,comp.windows.open-look


I'm using Sun Openwindows, version 2.0 and whenever I run the XTerm program,
I get messages this these:

    Warning: Widget class VendorShell version mismatch (recompilation needed):
      widget 11004 vs. intrinsics 11003.
    Warning: Widget class SimpleMenu version mismatch (recompilation needed):
      widget 11004 vs. intrinsics 11003.

I sometimes get similar messages when I am using other programs that use
the Xt or Athena widgets.  Are Xt/Xaw/etc. widget sets really compatible with
Openwindows?  Can I mix and match Xview & Xt widgets in a program?

I am unsure about how the Xview and Sun stuff relate to Xlib.  My understanding
is that XView stuff is based on top the X11 library, and that it has its own
system and implementation of widgets.  Xaw and other widget sets use Xt,
which in turn uses the X11 stuff.  My guess then is that it should be fine
to use Xt-based widget sets, but then that doesn't explain the error messages.
What is the real story?

Any help on this would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Craig

PS. Please reply to craig@indian.ucsc.edu
From: snail@lsl.co.uk
Newsgroups: fj.mail-lists.x-window
Subject: GUIs considered harmful (alternative distribution)
Date: 7 Sep 92 19:11:33 GMT
Distribution: fj
Organization: Laser-Scan Ltd., Cambridge

Date: 7 Sep 92 18:09:43 GMT
Message-Id: <1992Sep7.190944.2403@lsl.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.windows.x

[guy defending the Mac and slagging UNIX..]
>Try printing a text file to a postscript printer.. thats a more common problem

lpr -P <printer_name> -K2 (double sided) -Das (ascii)

However 'man' is not intuitive for a novice, whereas HELP is. Having said that
we use VMS as well as UNIX and it's all in there in HELP on VMS, but trying
to find what you want is almost impossible....

HELP SHOW

blah.....

HELP SHOW REGSITERED NEWSGROUPS

unknown command etc etc

this went on for a while until I found out the command was

DIR /REGISTER

How the hell am I meant to guess that I need help on DIR for my newsreader
when I've selected things I want shown using REGISTER. VMS's help system is
retarded (almost most other peoples opinion on VMS HELP at this site)
-- 
snail@lsl.co.uk      

Interviewer: "What's the most satisfying thing about being in
              The Sisters Of Mercy?"
Eldritch:    "When I collapse at the end of it..."
Interviewer: "Do you mean that?"
Eldritch:    "Yeah...."

Vote for Bill Clinton. Vote for Bill Clinton. Vote for Bill Clinton.
From: elvis@cats.ucsc.edu (Craig Filip Schiavone)
Newsgroups: fj.mail-lists.x-window
Subject: Q: Are Xt widgets compatible with the Sun OpenWin/Look environment?
Date: 10 Sep 92 17:33:01 GMT
Distribution: fj
Organization: University of California; Santa Cruz

Date: 9 Sep 1992 19:55:35 GMT
Message-Id: <18lkrnINN6k5@darkstar.UCSC.EDU>
Newsgroups: comp.windows.x,comp.windows.open-look


I'm using Sun Openwindows, version 2.0 and whenever I run the XTerm program,
I get messages this these:

    Warning: Widget class VendorShell version mismatch (recompilation needed):
      widget 11004 vs. intrinsics 11003.
    Warning: Widget class SimpleMenu version mismatch (recompilation needed):
      widget 11004 vs. intrinsics 11003.

I sometimes get similar messages when I am using other programs that use
the Xt or Athena widgets.  Are Xt/Xaw/etc. widget sets really compatible with
Openwindows?  Can I mix and match Xview & Xt widgets in a program?

I am unsure about how the Xview and Sun stuff relate to Xlib.  My understanding
is that XView stuff is based on top the X11 library, and that it has its own
system and implementation of widgets.  Xaw and other widget sets use Xt,
which in turn uses the X11 stuff.  My guess then is that it should be fine
to use Xt-based widget sets, but then that doesn't explain the error messages.
What is the real story?

Any help on this would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Craig

PS. Please reply to craig@indian.ucsc.edu
From: fineman@markov.arc.nasa.gov (Charles Fineman)
Newsgroups: fj.mail-lists.x-window
Subject: Re: Colormap stuff
Date: 10 Sep 92 17:22:16 GMT
Distribution: fj
Organization: NASA/ARC Information Sciences Division

Date: 10 Sep 1992 01:08:17 GMT
Message-Id: <FINEMAN.92Sep9170817@markov.arc.nasa.gov>
Newsgroups: comp.windows.x,comp.windows.x.motif,comp.windows.x.intrinsics


I thought XInstallColormap was only supposed to be called by window managers.

	~C
 
--
From: harp@netcom.com (Gregory O. Harp)
Newsgroups: fj.mail-lists.x-window
Subject: Re: Free software and the future of support for Diamond products
Date: 10 Sep 92 13:22:09 GMT
Distribution: fj
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)

Date: Thu, 10 Sep 92 02:03:32 GMT
Message-Id: <d0sncm+.harp@netcom.com>
Newsgroups: comp.unix.sysv386,comp.windows.x,comp.os.linux,comp.os.mach,comp.unix.bsd

sef@kithrup.COM (Sean Eric Fagan) writes:

>In article <1992Sep7.133347.4433@cbnewsj.cb.att.com> dwex@cbnewsj.cb.att.com (david.e.wexelblat) writes:
>>1) Calling BIOS from a multitasking OS is trick, dangerous, and impossible
>>   for those of us running SVR3/4

>An interesting way to get around all of those:  set up a v86 process that
>calls the BIOS routines for you.  It can be done, and I've seen it (not for
>the card in question, however), although I don't recall enough to make any
>claims about performance.

Yuck. ;)

However, that does allow for compatibility with several boards.  For
example, a VESA version of the X server could be released (I think.
Perhaps that's pushing it a bit far...).

So, how's the hate-mail campaign going with Diamond? ;)
-- 
-----------------Greg-Harp----------------harp@netcom.com------------------
  Love me, love my ferrets.               "Break out of the mold before
  Or at least love my ferrets. ;)          the mold sets in" -- B52's
From: klute@tommy.informatik.uni-dortmund.de (Rainer Klute)
Newsgroups: fj.mail-lists.x-window
Subject: Re: help needed obtaining snf info
Date: 10 Sep 92 17:50:53 GMT
Distribution: fj
Organization: CS Department, Dortmund University, Germany

Date: 10 Sep 92 06:46:24 GMT
Message-Id: <18mr00INN1ia@fbi-news.Informatik.Uni-Dortmund.DE>
Newsgroups: comp.windows.x,comp.windows.x.intrinsics,comp.windows.x.apps

In article <1992Sep7.142750.4501@aristo.tau.ac.il>,
dfl@virgo.math.tau.ac.il (David Frenkiel) writes:
|> I need to build an snf file from the xfontstruct information found in
|> the server.  pointers to source code or documentation are welcome
|> (email or thru the net).

Hmm, I guess by "xfontstruct information" you mean the XFontStruct data
structure. However, this one is located on the client side, not in the
server. And it only contains some metric information about the font in
general and - indirectly - about each character. It is the server that
holds the font's rendering information, i. e. its pixelization. The font
can be accessed by XFontStruct's component fid, which is the font's
resource ID.

I further guess that you don't have access to the server's font files, as
otherwise you could just :-) convert the font file to the appropriate SNF
variant. If you can't do that you can still access the font characters'
pixelization by rendering the characters in a drawable, transferring the
latter into an XImage on the client side, analyzing what you got, and -
using the information from the XFontStruct as well as possible font
properties - writing an appropriate BDF file, which in turn could be
converted to SNF, PCF or any other suitable format.

Disclaimer: The above is pure speculation. I never tried the described
procedure (and hopefully shall never have to).

-- 
  Dipl.-Inform. Rainer Klute      klute@irb.informatik.uni-dortmund.de
  Univ. Dortmund, IRB
  Postfach 500500         |)|/    Tel.: +49 231 755-4663
D-W4600 Dortmund 50       |\|\    Fax : +49 231 755-2386