From: 01sybok@ac.dal.ca
Newsgroups: soc.college
Subject: Re: Frats
Date: 6 Nov 92 08:23:33 -0400
Organization: Dalhousie University, Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

In article <1992Oct30.195148.22995@midway.uchicago.edu>, thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu (Citecheck Hell) writes:
> In article <1992Oct30.183109.25701@cc.umontreal.ca> cholette@JSP.UMontreal.CA (Cholette Martin) writes:
>>>>In article <1992Oct29.002106.11020@midway.uchicago.edu>, thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu (Citecheck Hell) writes:
>>>
>>>Every other organization in the country manages to recruit members without
>>>rush.   
>>
> 
> Do I say shut down the fraternities because of rush?  No, I just say
> that ending rush is a prerequisite of the fraternities getting their act
> together.


Brilliant, Ted. "Let's stop member recruitment. *THAT* will help us reform."

Good thing you're in law where you can't do too much harm Ted. I'd hate to
see you in a field like rocket science or brain surgery.


> The March of Dimes has plenty of members, and does at least as much
> philanthropy as any fraternity, but somehow has avoided killing
> dozens of people in the process of recruitment.

Many fraternities do community service, Ted, but it is not the raison d'etre
of most. The recruitment methods are different.


> 
> Indeed it is.  And your stats back me up.  Forty-three is a number
> just high enough to look like the frats are doing something, but low
> enough not to be doing anything.  I've seen four fraternities haze
> first-hand, and I refuse to believe that that's ten percent of the
> total.  The nationals are just scratching the surface.  And, out of
> curiosity, how many of those 43 cases were sent on to local district
> attorneys for prosecution under state hazing laws?  

How too clever Ted. Criticize fraternities for not doing anything, then
criticize them for taking action.


> In short:
> Every single campus gang rape in the last ten years either involved
> fraternities or athletic teams.  (And occasionally both.)


Every single REPORTED gang rape, Ted. And are you blaming fraternities for 
the actions of the athletic teams? How many rapes were gang rapes? What
percentage of rapes were gang rapes? You stats sound really dramatic, Ted,
but under the surface they mean nothing.


> Fraternity members have a rape rate four times the national campus average.
> Over fifty pledges have been killed in the rush process over the last ten
> years, and hundreds more have come close to death through alcohol poisoning.
> -- 


Fifty pledges. That is fifty too meny. You are correct. However, how many 
pledges were there in those ten years? Is joining a fraternity as high risk as,
say, going for a drive in a car? Going bungee jumping? Once again, you pull
a classic Ted Frank and dish out meaningless stats.


And as for ending hazing, you'd do better to start in residences. My sister
attends a college where (ironically) no secret societies are permitted,
yet the residence students are put through things I wouldn't have even 
considered going through to join a fraternity. 

Face it Ted. You're bigoted 
against fraternities. You turn a blind eye to the crimes committed by some 
residence students and engineering socities. You pay only lip service to 
those crimes committed by some athletic teams. The more you post, the greater
the impression I receive that you were refused entrance to some fraternity
and you are now hell bent on trying to disband the fraternity system. You
have an "If I can't join, I try to disband the system," sort of mentality.
It's really rather chidish. Give it up. You tried last spring,and failed.
I can't imagine you have anything new to add to the debate.

Mike