HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: cohen@quartz.ciw.edu (Ronald Cohen)
Subject: Conservative vs. Orthodox Halacha (was Conversion Question)
Date: 10 Nov 92 14:26:28 GMT
Organization: Geophysical Laboratory, CIW

In article <1992Nov10.140232.16483@umbc3.umbc.edu> shimoff@umbc4.umbc.edu (Eliot Shimoff) writes:
>
>I don't think that the Reform movement has been successful either.
>BUT -- I could use similar criteria to assert the failure of the
>Conservative movement too.  How many Conservative Jews truly observe
>Conservative halakha, as opposed to simply being non-observant.  Baltimore
>has a fairly large Conservative Jewish community, but _very_ _very_ few
>Conservative Jews are observant -- and the percentage appears to be
>dropping (my own perspective -- not data).

I don't think this is true at all, at least in my experience.
Our Conservative synagogue is almost full even on the second
days of Yom-Tov, and the percentage of shomer shabbat may be as
high as at many orthodox synagogues.  Our course, things may
very from place to place.  But as another example, many if not
most Conservative synagogues have daily minyans.

>
>
> ... But there are MAJOR
>theological differences (e.g., Torah mi'shamayim, the absolute Divine
>origin of the Torah, and the binding nature of the Oral Tradition) that
>have MAJOR practical implications.  Thus (and here's where we start
>insulting folks), IF a legitimate Bet Din requires rabbis who accept
>these basic principles, and IF Conservative rabbis do not accept
>those principles, THEN the Bet Din's decisions are problematic.
>

There is no Conservative theological principles that disavows
Torah mi'shamayim, the absolute Divine origin of the Torah, and
the binding nature of the Oral Tradition.  On the other hand, it
is not a sin to think such, as long as one follows Halacha.

Interpretation of Halacha can change, especially as regards
Rabbinic laws, however. The Talmud was written down so that we
could understand the reasoning behind the halacha, and adapt it
as needed.  If the O view was correct that Judaism is a fossil
religion, and nothing can change, why did the sages redact the
Talmud, with all of the reasoning, arguments, and differences of
opinion?  If all that matters is a frozen law, why not just
write the halacha down, and leave it at that? 

One notable example of difference of opinion between O and C is
the COMPLETE inclusion of women in the Jewish community in
Conservative Judaism.  The Orthodox, of course, need not accept
this, and need not attend a Conservative shul to pray if it bugs
them to see a woman read from the Torah.  It is not hard to see
that the position of women in society has changed since the time
of the Talmud, and even since the time of the Schulhan Aruch.  The
tradition does not exist in a vacuum, and reflects the society of
the time.  Now it no longer makes no sense to exclude women from
religious society.  But whether you agree or not, in any case, it
has no bearing on the authority of Conservative rabbis, their
conversions, marriages, or gets.
-- 
Ronald Cohen
Geophysical Laboratory, Carnegie Institution of Washington
5251 Broad Branch Rd., N.W.,  Washington, D.C. 20015
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: victor@watson.ibm.com (Victor Miller)
Subject: Re: Jewish Movies on Video?
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 14:13:37 GMT
Reply-To: victor@watson.ibm.com
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM, T.J. Watson Research Center

>>>>> On Tue, 10 Nov 1992 04:08:56 GMT, dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) said:

Danny> andy <2893684@QUCDN.QueensU.CA> writes:

Danny> I think Zero Mostel acted in the movie based on the play by Eugene
Danny> Oneil, the name of which my spelling is not good enough to get

Oy! It was by Ionescu (no relation to O'Neill), and was called
Rhinocerous.  Mostel also played the same role when the play was on
Broadway.  Mostel also starred in "Ulysses in Night-town" (based on an
episode from Joyce's "Ulysses"), playing Leopold Bloom.  Incidentally,
that was one of his (not-so subtle) jokes in the "Producers" (one of
my favorite movies), in calling the Gene Wilder character Leo Bloom.
Danny> correct :-). Anyway its about people turning into that big animal
Danny> with a horn that is called KARNAF in Hebrew (reinoschorous!?). Also
Danny> acting is Gene Wilder.

Danny> -Danny Keren.

--
		Victor S. Miller
		Bitnet: VICTOR at WATSON
		Internet: victor@watson.ibm.com
		IBM, TJ Watson Research Center
		"Great artists steal; lesser artists borrow" Igor Stravinsky
From: tichauer@valpso.hanse.de (Manfredo Tichauer)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Kosher Honey - Still no answer
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 92 02:04:55 +0100
Organization: "The Private site of Manfredo Tichauer"

chips@eskimo.celestial.com (:crp:) writes:

> An acceptable answer to why honey is kosher is still waiting to be found.
> The main thread at this point is that since the honey, like cows milk, is
> not used by the 'animal' itself internally, therefore the stomach is 
> just acting as a holding vessel. To support this , it may be noted that
> pigs are used to dig up certain mushrooms with their snouts and mouths and
> that these mushrooms are still kosher.
> 
> However, the problem remains that their is no other substance that is 
> digested by a non-kosher 'animal' and considered kosher. So to reiterate
> the basic question:
> 			Why is bee honey kosher and tigers milk not?
> 
> And PLEASE!, the bible only talks about DATE honey !
> 
 From the "Encyclopaedia Judaica", vol.8, page 963:

    HONEY (Heb. degash):.... In accordance with the rule "that which issues
           from an unclean creature is unclean"  (Bek.1:2) it should follow
           that bees' honey is forbidden since the bee belongs to the class
           of unclean insects.The rabbis, however, permitted its use on the
           grounds  that  honey is not the product of the bee; it is merely
           stored in its body (Bek.7b).....     
           
    My question is: what would an entomologist say about the last sentence?    
    
 -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Manfredo Tichauer M.                       EMAIL : tichauer@valpso.hanse.de
  Opitzstrasse 14                            VOICE :     (++ 49 40)  27.42.27
  2000 Hamburg 60 - GERMANY                  FAX   :     (++ 49 40) 270.53.09
 -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: gsm@gsm001.mendelson.com (Geoffrey S. Mendelson)
Subject: Re: Welcome to s.c.j.
Organization: Mendelson.com
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 00:44:09 GMT

In article <1drcuvINN6lc@agate.berkeley.edu> schultz@garnet.berkeley.edu (Richard Schultz) writes:
>
>This brief note is mainly for the newer readers of s.c.j.
>
>Welcome to the semi-annual OCR flamefest!  

Aw shoot!!!!! you gave it all away.   
-- 
Geoffrey S. Mendelson 
(215) 242-8712
gsm@mendelson.com     or uunet!gsm001!gsm
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: agw@dsm.fordham.edu (Art Werschulz)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: If Cheshvan is here, can Adar be far behind?
Date: 11 Nov 1992 15:37:34 -0600
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

Hi scj'ers!

The following came through JEWISHNT.

 Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1992 16:44 EDT
 From: STEPHEN ANTLER <ANTLER@BRANDEIS.BITNET>
 Subject: Information Request
 To: jewishnt@BGUVM.Bitnet
 
 Moshe Waldoaks asked to have this announcement posted.  You may
 respond to him directly or to me and I will forward responses.
 
 Steve Antler
 
 THE GANTSE MEGILLAH
 
      I have just undertaken a wonderful project.  You can be a
 part of it.  Do you have any really good Purim Torah that you
 would like to see published in The Gantse Megillah?  The
 collection will be published next year by the Jewish Publication
 Society (JPS).  This unique Purim companion will include a Hebrew
 and English version of Megillat Esther, a light-hearted
 commentary, and loads of Purim parodies, jokes, cartoons, and
 much more.
 
      You may know my work as the co-editor of The Big Book of
 Jewish Humor, and The Big Book of New American Humor.  Some of
 you may have seen me on the PBS documentary, "The World of Jewish
 Humor."  Ly conviction is that Jewish humor is an important
 aspect of Jewish consciousness.  The Gantse Megillah provide an
 opportunity to include not only comic ideas about the Purim
 story, but will also introduce many to the fantasy and
 imagination that is part of our midrashic tradition.
 
      Materials concerning other parts of the Tanach and Rabbinic
 literature will also be considered.
 
      I am particularly interested in materials that can withstand
 time and place.  But there is always a way to use any really good
 and funny pieces.  Items in Hebrew and Yiddish are also welcome.
 
      If you can provide any leads or suggestions for materials,
 please send them along and I will follow them up.
 
      Thank you in advance for your cooperation.
 
                                   Moshe Waldoks
                                   12 Lombard St.
                                   Newton, MA 02158
                                   USA
                                   617-964-3412

Somehow, I figure that the massive amounts of scj Purim Torah
generated last year should be forwarded to the Mr. Waldoks.  Anybody
have an idea as to what the optimal mechanism might be for doing this? 

  Art Werschulz		(8-{)}
  Internet:  agw@dsm.fordham.edu  ATTnet: (212) 636-6325

  Shalom!  Ani mutatsia shel virus .signature.
  Ha`atek oti letoch .signature shelcha!
From: rothberg@bimacs.BITNET (Danny Rothenberg)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Sexual immorality in Israel
Date: 8 Nov 92 13:02:56 GMT
Organization: Math department, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, ISRAEL

While looking for a job, I came across the following small
advertisement in the situations-vacant column:

NIS 15,000: pretty girls wanted.  must be liberal.  call....


--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Danny Rothenberg            |    ^     Life's a dream-so sleep through it!
Bitnet:                     | \-/-\-/         Be'ahavat Chinam
rothberg@bimacs             |  X   X Am Yisra'el       The People of Israel
Internet:                   | /-\-/-\Be'Eretz Yisra'el In The Land of Israel
rothberg@imacs.cs.biu.ac.il |    V   Im Torat Yisra'el With The Torah of Israel
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: ssteigma@scott.skidmore.edu (Stephen H. Steigman)
Subject: Re: MOTT?
Organization: Skidmore College, Saratoga Springs NY
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 01:01:53 GMT

ssteigma@scott.skidmore.edu (Stephen H. Steigman) writes:
> MOTT - Member Of The Tribe  
> 
> 
> But this does bring up an interesting question....
> 
> If Christians consider themselves decendants of the tribes, and
> Moslems consider themselves decendants of Mohammed, doesn't that make
> all Jews, Christians, and Moslems memebers of the tribe of Abraham?

Sorry....my mistake.  Not all Christians consider themselves
decendants of Judaism....only some.  I forgot to bring into question
the large number who have converted to christianity.

And another mistake I made....thank you for pointing it out netters,
is that Moslems consider themselves to be decendants of _Ishmael_, not
Mohammed.  

I still think it's a great phrase.  Some people would say otherwise.

Regards,

Stephen
-- 
=====================================================
Stephen H. Steigman   INTERNET: ssteigma@skidmore.edu
Skidmore College      VOICE:    (518) 581-6111 
Saratoga Springs NY
From: warren@nysernet.org (Warren Burstein)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Conversion Question
Date: 9 Nov 92 08:44:21 GMT
Reply-To: warren@nysernet.org
Organization: Mail to News Gateway at Wang Labs

In <1992Nov9.004613.1437@cbnewsl.cb.att.com> stank@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (Stan Krieger) writes:

>Oh boy, here we go again.  Well folks, here's another reality
>reminder.  Maybe this time it will sink in-

It has certainly sunk in that OCR flames eventually mention

>	legitimate INTERPRETATION

Then someone asks Stan to define this.  Then Stan says that C is
legitimate BY DEFINITION.  Then someone asks if this or that group
(outside of OCR) is LI.  Maybe someone from that group takes that as
an invitation to post something from that group's perspective.  Then
we yell at one another for a few days until everyone gets bored and
wait for the next OCR flame.

So look, we don't agree on what halacha means, we don't agree on what
"legitimate interpretation" means.  But that won't stop us from having
the argument again.

Enjoy.
-- 
/|/-\/-\          Adif tzav pinui metzav shmoneh.
 |__/__/_/    
 |warren@     
/ nysernet.org 			    Jerusalem
Organization: Queen's University at Kingston
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 01:23:39 EDT
From: andy <2893684@QUCDN.QueensU.CA>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: anti-semitism in academia

In article <1dneu2INNdqh@agate.berkeley.edu>, lmk2@garnet.berkeley.edu () says:
>
>My problem is this:  I think that she will not make these comments
>anymore, in fact, I doubt that she will talk to me, but we
>work in the same office on related projects, and I am angry anytime
>I see her.  She will be leaving in June (I hope), and I do not want to be
>responsible for her not finishing her work here.  I am not sure
>how to deal with this situation, except by hoping my feelings of
>anger will mellow and waiting for her to leave.  If it continues
>I would, of course, consider making an official complaint, but
>I'm not sure I want to do that now.  Has anyone else faced a
>similar situation?  How have you dealt with it?  Remember, this
>is an academic institution, and most of us are graduate students,
>so there are some differences in what is done about racism among
>colleagues (rather than from a professor to a student).

Not complaining will only result in her behaving the same way in the future,
is there a Human Rights Code in your state? Is she violating your Civil Rights?
If she is, you should do something. That sort of behaviour is unacceptable
From: faigin@aero.org (Daniel P. Faigin)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Conversion Question
Date: 10 Nov 92 10:47:36
Organization: The Aerospace Corporation, El Segundo, CA
	<09Nov92.194522.19265@granite.ciw.edu>
	<1992Nov10.032437.14904@umbc3.umbc.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: soldan.aero.org
In-reply-to: shimoff@umbc4.umbc.edu's message of Tue, 10 Nov 1992 03:24:37 GMT

On Tue, 10 Nov 1992 03:24:37 GMT, shimoff@umbc4.umbc.edu (Eliot Shimoff) said:

> I assume that some Reform Jews will soon enter the fray.  In
> case they don't, let me suggest that they are convinced that
> _they_ are the legitimate inheritors of rabbinic Judaism!

What is a legitimate inheritor to begin with? Can't all major movements
determine a common basis, and all be valid as forms of Judaism? Why must there
be only one way to worship and interpret halacha?

Daniel
--
[W]:The Aerospace Corp. M1/055 * POB 92957 * LA, CA 90009-2957 * 310/336-8228
[Email]:faigin@aerospace.aero.org              [Vmail]:310/336-5454 Box#13149
		    "And as they say, the rest is compost"
From: warren@nysernet.org (Warren Burstein)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Sexism
Date: 10 Nov 92 07:32:35 GMT
Reply-To: warren@nysernet.org
Organization: Mail to News Gateway at Wang Labs

In <96757@netnews.upenn.edu> weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener) writes:

>That's nothing.  There are people who wear dozens of layers of underwear
>every day, no matter what--twenty, thirty, even fortysome talis katans,
>each tied according to a different nusach.  If you grow up that way, I
>don't think it seems so bad.

I don't think that there are entire communities that do this, but
rather exceptional individuals (I'm not even sure if the plural is
correct, I've always heard "there's one person who ...") who wear all
possible permutations.

I've wondered how it is that a person who wears n different tk's, each
following a different opinion, isn't according to each opinion wearing
n-1 four cornered garments without kosher tzitzit?  Wearing two pairs
of tfillin (sequentially of course) is not a problem because there is
no prohibition against wearing unkosher tfillin.

Furthermore, I've been told that one is not allowed to wear an invalid
tallit of either size on Shabbat outside of a reshut hayachid, as the
tzitzit serve no purpose and hence one is carrying them.  I haven't
understood this, as I would think that invalid tzitzit might be
considered a decoration, but would the same problem exist here - one
would be carrying 4*(n-1) invalid tzitzit on Shabbat?

Or do all n opinions consider the other valid, and is the disagreement
about the *best* way to make the tallit?

Finally, do those who wear n tk's also wear n tg's?  Or is it enough
that they are fulfilling the mitzva of tzitzit on one tk?
-- 
/|/-\/-\          Adif tzav pinui metzav shmoneh.
 |__/__/_/    
 |warren@     
/ nysernet.org 			    Jerusalem
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin)
Subject: Re: Pyramids
Organization: Purdue University Statistics Department
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 17:39:04 GMT

In article <1992Nov11.192728.3120@cbfsb.cb.att.com> klur@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (david.s.klur) writes:

>I just saw a PBS special about Pyramids -I thought the show
>as excellent, except at the end when some pyramid specialist
>marvelled at the dedication of the ancient Egyptians at being
>able to work so hard for so long to complete the pyramids.

>Now, I had thought that slaves (mostly Jews, but maybe others also?)
>built the pyramids under the pharaohs' rule.  After all, Jews
>celebrate Passover, the freedom of the Jews from slavery in Egypt.

>So, who actually built the pyramids?  

The pyramids were built before the time of Abraham.  It was not necessary
to use slave labor; during the flooding of the Nile, the farmers, most of
the population, were necessarily idle, and the conditions for moving 
limestone blocks was optimal.  

Shortly after this time, the idea of using pyramids as tombs was given
up.  This was still before Abraham.
-- 
Herman Rubin, Dept. of Statistics, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette IN47907-1399
Phone: (317)494-6054
hrubin@snap.stat.purdue.edu (Internet, bitnet)  
{purdue,pur-ee}!snap.stat!hrubin(UUCP)
From: organic@mgr.hjf.org (Miriam Organic)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: HE, SHE, AND IT by Marge Piercy
Date: 6 Nov 92 14:25:26 GMT
Organization: HJF AIDS Research Project, Washington DC

I read this book, and for the most part enjoyed it.  I do however have a
problem with Piercy's ove use of sexual topics and words.  I found it
took away from a story that by its self was quite good. I hope I am not
soudning like prude, but just when she was painting a very nice vision
of the main character and her grandmother enjoying the end of shabbat,
Piercy had to throw shock value words that broke the image.  
She is very good at her craft and I feel does not HAVE to lower herself 
to such *run of the mill* pulp fiction.


Just my view I welcome any others 


			Miriam Shoshana Lebe Organic
From: mannj@acf9.nyu.edu (Jordan Mann)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: McDonalds in Israel
Date: 9 Nov 92 18:01:18 GMT
Organization: New York University

bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman) writes:

>Is there a chance it will be kosher???

When I was a kid, we used to talk about McDonalds as the epitome of
traif-ness.  And now a kosher McDonalds ? Is nothing sacred ???? 

--

Jordan Mann at NYU      (mannj@cims.nyu.edu)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: norm@helix.nih.gov
Subject: Re:  Modest dress in Judaism (was Re: sexism in Judaism)
Originator: scj@israel.nysernet.org
Reply-To: <norm@helix.nih.gov>
Organization: Nysernet
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 17:48:16 GMT

>I must confess that I am getting extremely confused.  First I am told that
>women must dress modestly, to preserve themselves for their husbands and 
>avoid attracting Other Men.  Then I am told, by several people who emailed
>me privately and did not care to proclaim it on the net, that there is 
>nothing wrong with a woman dressing quite stylishly and looking nice, as long
>as she is modest, e.g. you cannot see her elbows or knees.  
>
>I ask you:  does a woman's knees or elbows have to show for her to be 
>ATTRACTIVE to men other than her husband?  Could not a woman, wearing a long-s
>sleeved blouse and a long skirt, look attractive without losing her 
>so-called modesty?  If so, what exactly IS the point of this custom?
>I would really like to know what good it does for a woman to wear a nice, 
>plain, (say black) long-sleeved long-skirted dress if every man in the room
>is still going to think she looks good, ergo attractive?
>
>The only way I know of to NOT appear attractive to other men is to dress in an
>unbecoming way.  Which would not please my theoretical husband at all, either.
>
>So:  The custom of modesty has been said, several times, to be for the sake
>of preserving a woman's beauty and attractiveness for her husband.  
>
>However, covering one's natural hair and wearing long-sleeved, long-skirted
>dresses does NOT make a woman unattractive to men other than her husband,
>unless she is pretty plain to start out.  So what's the point?  Should 
>we penalize women who are naturally attractive by making them wear burlap sacks?
>
>
>JJ
Seems TO ME as if everyone is missing the point.  Your subject is "Modest
dress..", and everyone speaks of attractiveness.  The point is "Sneus(?
sp.) is modesty.  Even though I have great "attractive" legs, (entirely my
opinion), I do not go around in shorts.  Modesty in either sex has nothing
to do with attractiveness.  I think that modesty in appearance is a sign of
modesty in behavior.  Please, the opinions expressed are entirely my own
and do not constitute any lead into a major debate.
+--------------------------------------------------------+
   

   *    ***    **      *
   *   *   *     *     *
   *   *   *     *     *   
   *    ***         ***
   *   nison reuven b'R Shami             
   *   
   *   *  *   ***   ***   **  **
   *   ** *  *   *  *  *  * ** *
   *   * **  *   *  ***   *    *
   *   *  *   ***   *  *  *    *
       norm
+---------------------------------------------------------+

Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: srm@world.std.com (Stevens R Miller)
Subject: Re: Say it ain't so
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 14:45:15 GMT

arf@ddsw1.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling) writes:
> srm@world.std.com (Stevens R Miller) writes:
>> arf@ddsw1.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling) writes:

>>> Welcome to the world of reverse racism.                  

>> Do you know the facts?  How do you know that
>> a mixed jury was racist in its verdict?

>> Welcome to the world of reasonable doubt.

> Pray tell, how many Chassidic Jews were on this "mixed jury"?

Don't know, don't care, it doesn't matter.  Facts matter.

The assumption that "Jewish victim plus no Jews in the jury equals
racist verdict" is naive and borders on bigotry.
-- 
Stevens R. Miller J.D.