From: andersa@Riga.DoCS.UU.SE (Anders Andersson)
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
Subject: Concepts of family and state heraldry
Date: 11 Sep 1992 16:47:30 GMT
Organization: Uppsala University, Sweden
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: riga.docs.uu.se

In article <1992Sep11.013513.4156@vela.acs.oakland.edu>, atterlep@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Montgomery J. Moose) writes:
>   This charter was written to avoid "micro-management."  Rather than listing
> topics such as "ecclesiastical heraldry," "municipal heraldry," and so on,  I
> was simply trying to give a broad outline.

I'd second your point about management; I don't see any need for
excessive policy meta-discussion (at least not right now :-).

However, rather than discussing the charter, I'd like to discuss
the terminology, using the statements in your first passage below
as a starting point.

Maybe my earlier note to you is what lead you to mention 'municipal
heraldry' above, as I brought it up.  I don't consider myself very
versed in the field, but my primary interest here is with coats of
arms of states, their subdivisions and agencies, municipalities,
geographical areas lacking state recognition etc.  With the exception
of coats of arms of hereditary monarchies, I have the impression that
this part of the heraldic discipline has very little to do with genealogy.

>   Heraldry has a number of different aspects, all of which can be discussed in
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> the forum.  Each coat of arms is the hereditary symbol of a noble family, so 
              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> knowledge of heraldry can be helpful in geneology.  As a craft which is
> rooted in medieval feudalism, it can be an aid to historians and
> medievalists.  And, as a living art form used in every country of the world,
> it is practiced by amateur and professional heralds in the modern world.

I recognize your wish not to exclude any particular aspect of heraldry,
but I find your claim that coats of arms always relate to families of
the nobility somewhat disputable.  Am I reading something into your
statements that you don't intend to say?  Now, if anybody could tell
me authoritatively either that 1) the coat of arms of the United
States of America leads its history to some noble family, or that
2) the coats of arms of states and governments belong to a discipline
which is usually referred to by some other term than 'heraldry', then
I'd be seriously interested in hearing that...

Just as family heraldry is related to genealogy, state heraldry is
related to political history and royal genealogy (when applicable).
While both disciplines share a number of features, they also have
distinct differences.  State heraldry also ties in to the discipline
of designing national flags (I know this has some fancy term, but I
have forgotten it).

The subject of state heraldry is even a news item, now with the
sudden political changes in Europe.  Heraldists from Russia seem
convinced that the 'Double Eagle' will be back in one form or
another as an official symbol.  We'll see whether traditional
heraldic art has survived 70 years of non-existance...

When travelling through the Baltic Soviet republics in the summer
of 1989, my best souvenir was a pair of posters sold (for a few
roubles, which meant they weren't primarily intended for western
tourists) next to the Liberty monument in central Riga, Latvia.
The posters showed the national coat of arms of the independent
state of Latvia, plus the municipal coats of arms of several
Latvian towns.  None of them carried the heraldic attributes of
the Soviet government, of course.

In 1991, formal Latvian independence was again a reality, and the
already familiar coat of arms could be put into official use.

Are there other readers here who are also interested in state
heraldry?  Is it considered a peripheral issue in comparison to
family heraldry?  Do readers here feel that family and state
heraldry are arts and disciplines intimatelty knit together, or
that they are different subjects with a trivial common framework?
Do you think I'm abusing some terminology in this posting?

By the way, what is 'ecclesiastical heraldry'?  Does it refer to
coats of arms held by priests, or by religious congregations?
Does anybody have interesting examples of this sub-discipline?

Do people collect digitally stored images of heraldic art?
--
Anders Andersson, Dept. of Computer Systems, Uppsala University
Paper Mail: Box 325, S-751 05 UPPSALA, Sweden
Phone: +46 18 183170   EMail: andersa@DoCS.UU.SE