From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish
Subject: Re: On Polish Anti-semitism
Date: 14 Oct 92 19:54:16 GMT
Reply-To: roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig)
Organization: Princeton University
Originator: news@nimaster

In article <1992Oct14.100620.2377@walter.cray.com> aleks@cray.com (Aleksander Mazur) writes:

>In article <1992Oct14.143241.8945@cs.brown.edu> dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) writes:

>>As for the army service, you simply cannot compare Israel with any
>>other country in that sense. Let's face it: you have a small country,
>>surrounded by hostile countries, and you have a part of the
>>population that identifies much more with the surrounding countries
>>than with the country it lives in (I am not complaining about that,
>>simply stating a fact). To let them serve in the army is a big
>>problem. And, anyway, to call it "discrimination" is a misuse of
>>the word. Going to the army in Israel means you spend at least
>>6 years of your life (3 regular + 3 reserve) there. It means that
>>you start studying later, you start your carrer later, and every year
>>you have to leave your business/studies/family/career and serve
>>a month in the reserve. Believe me, not too many people think its fun.

>Well, but such an exclusion based on national origin creates
>itself internal problem - second class citizens. 

At least they're citizens.  Jews in most Arab countries are treated
far worse.  

But that's neither here nor there.  Yes, it's an unfortunate consequence:
but don't forget what it's a consequence *of*.  Phrases like "Second
class citizen" have a nice, moral ring to them, but then, the Israelis
didn't exactly choose to have their country besieged for every day of
its existence.

>Its true, that army
>service is not pleasure, but also higher positions in army this way
>are unaccessible based on national origin. In addition to that
>occupation of territories for 25 years creates additional problem.
>I do not think that new generations of people born under
>occupation can switch suddenly into friends of Israel. 

They weren't friends of Israel before the occupation, either.  Many
of them were committed to the destruction of Israel and the murder
of its people--and so are their children, many of whom would feel 
the same if they lived elsewhere.

>I saw
>discussion with Israelis - it was said, that 1967 war did not
>erupt suddenly. Entire Israeli cabinet was waiting for chief
>of Mossad, who went to Washington to get acceptance of action
>against Arab countries. It started when he returned assuming
>that it was agreed upon in Washington. 

I see.  And did the Israelis and Americans also coordinate the blockade
of the Gulf of Aqaba, and put Jordan's troops on the border primed for
attack?  The Arab countries had already massed for war; that's what
sent Israeli officials to Washington for assurances of support in the
first place.

>And above all I cannot
>see what Israel gained occupying for 25 years those territories.

Well, Israel still exists, which was not part of the plan in 1967.
And since the invading governments from 1967 have refused even to
recognize Israel, and to guarantee ANY borders, the use of occupation
to create somewhat safer ones doesn't seem all that much out of line.

On the other hand, I'm *still* not sure what this has to do with the history   
of Poland.

Roger