HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer)
Newsgroups: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
Subject: Re: Abuse
Date: 14 Aug 92 05:02:44 GMT
Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting, Cambridge MA

In article <cloister.713760488@milton> cloister@milton.u.washington.edu (cloister bell) writes:
>>"It" isn't "abuse", "it" is "his problems".  His mother was worried that
>>psychologists were going to blame her for his problems.  Even the most
>>committed student of abusive families has to admit that not all problems
>>are due to environment or one's upbringing.  Some people have mental
>>problems of their own making, or they just come that way due to bad genes.
>>Sometimes there's no one to blame.
>
>i don't think that's true in this case.

Hard to say; I'll let Bear Giles judge.  I was making a grammatical
point; namely, what antecedent the "it" had.

>his mother's statement really makes me
>think "i wonder what she has to hide?"  if she knew she were not guilty of any
>abuse, why would she say that?  she would know it wasn't going to happen to
>her.

I think this is dangerously fascist thinking.  In fact, people who aren't
schooled in psychology or who aren't sophisticated and whose only exposure
to such stuff is from tabloid TV might well say something like this
and be perfectly innocent.  Even before this most recent popularization of
family problems and abuse, psychological lore had the families "responsible"
for their child's autism, emotional disorders, criminal behavior, or
unconventional sexual orientation.  Now, at least in the case of autism
and sexual orientation we know that that's bunk.  It's bunk in a lot of
cases for people with emotional disorders, and in most cases of criminal
behavior.  The mother's statement could be thought of as a "common sense"
response to all that "new fangled" psychology.  That is, I don't see that
your interpretation is the only possible one.

>but her saying "they always trace it back to the parents" says to me that
>she's giving herself a way out when it *does* come back at her.  she can think
>back to this initial denial and say to herself "yep, i was right.  it's not
>really my fault, it's just those psychologists out to blame parents for
>everything."  this way she never has to admit to herself her own culpability
>for her son's problems.

What parent hasn't felt regret for the choices they've made wrt raising
their children?  What parent might not worry that some choice they've
made could have contributed to their child's problems today (just as
parents like to take credit for their children's successes.)  I find
it amazing that you're just assuming the worst on the part of this person
you know absolutely nothing about.  But if that's the case, I'll provide
some alternative interpretations, which seem equally adequate as
speculation.  More detail should come if Bear Giles decides to elaborate.



-- 
Steve Dyer
dyer@ursa-major.spdcc.com aka {ima,harvard,rayssd,linus,m2c}!spdcc!dyer
Newsgroups: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
From: sallyb@qiclab.scn.rain.com (Sally Bowley)
Subject: Re: The Anonymous Service: This Waiter Has A Fake Accent
Organization: SCN Research/Qic Laboratories of Tigard, Oregon.
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 06:16:20 GMT

In article <1992Aug17.164158.1@fnalno.fnal.gov> holzman@fnalno.fnal.gov writes:
>In article <1992Aug17.075130.26171@qiclab.scn.rain.com>, 
>
>Sally, you're really something.  First you lay a guilt trip on her for
>appearing manipulative, then when she feels guilty and communicates this, you
>do it again.  Just fucking amazing.  And pretty manipulative of you.  So tell 
>me, how could Relkie respond that *wouldn;t* make you feel manipulated?
>
>And you *didn't* "express concern" that you were "uncomfortable with the way
>[Relkie presernted her] information", you accused her of being manipulative.

i believe i did both. we obviously have very different opinions of
what is going on here, and i'm okay with that. i'm not going to get
drawn into defending myself to you; especially when i don't consider
it necessary to use the inslting tone you have. 

>> and i also want to state that i too, feel bad at what you have
>> experienced in the last few months. my decision to comment on your
>> posts, has no reflection on what happened to you, i'm merely concerend
>> with the way you're going about it. 
>
>You failed to make this distinction clear in your post.

you seem to be the only one having such a problem
sally

>Dan


Newsgroups: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
From: anon-1012@twwells.com (All Me of Us)
Subject: no more politics, please
Organization: Anonymous Posting Service at twwells.com
X-Email-Accepted: yes
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 21:09:51 GMT

Thanks, cloister; I couldn't have said it better.

>[soap-box on]
>interesting as this debate is, i feel that it's not really asar material.  as
>far as i can tell, individual political beliefs don't have much to do with
>healing from sexual abuse.  political differences of opinion, like holy wars
>and operating system superiority debates, are the sort that will never end.
>imho, asar doesn't really need any more vitrious differences of opinion right
>now, especially on something that should go in alt.politics or e-mail.
>[soap-box off]


All Me of Us



--
To use this service, send EMAIL to:
anon-ping@twwells.com  -- test path/get anonymous id
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anon-asar@twwells.com  -- post anonymously to alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
Newsgroups: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
From: enigma@netcom.com (Enigma)
Subject: Re: a message from solitary
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 92 16:40:53 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)

Prisoner,

First off, I'm glad to see you posting again--you may not believe it
but a number of people have been concerned about you.  

Second, I understand your desire to tell your side of the story.  But 
think about it: you admit you had sex with Relkie.  What do the details
matter?  You're around 40, she's 16.  She regarded you as a foster-father
(even before you went up there the second time she called you that a
number of times, at least to me).  You went up there to rescue her from
sexual abuse, and then you had sex with her.

The picture I have in my head is a girl who can't swim calling to the 
people on shore to rescue her, and a man who can't really swim either
dog-paddling out to her, hoping between the two of them they can stay
afloat - and pulling her under.  As I said before, I don't think you
meant any harm.  But you managed to hurt her badly - Relkie is never
going to forget this experience.  

Relkie is starting therapy as soon as possible.  Please, Prisoner, you
need therapy too.  I know you don't trust psychiatrists, but please,
until you find someone you trust who can help you, you're going to
continue feeling miserable, and inadvertently hurting others.   I'm
not speaking from a lofty pedestal here, but as someone who has
travelled this road herself.

Love, 
 nimma

-- 
Holly McGrath   <enigma@netcom.com> 
1803 Mission Street, #339          
Santa Cruz, CA 95060              
(408) 479-4072  (voice mail)     
Newsgroups: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
From: anon-1016@twwells.com (Prisoner)
Subject: how do I?
Organization: Anonymous Posting Service at twwells.com
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 01:07:29 GMT

I'm not sure how to say anything without doing more damage. I feel
like if I say anything to or about Relkie that isn't directly
related to this recent thing, that I'm maybe doing even more
manipulation. I have no way to judge.

Fear and guilt. Some fears I can deal with, if by no other means
than pretending that the thing I'm afraid of isn't really what it
is. This newsgroup, for example. When things get really awful
inside and I can't imagine putting my words out for some person
to read, I can turn my mind away from there being people who will
read my post. Sometimes when the thing that causes me fear is
something wrong, I can become angry and so overcome the fear.

But guilt. That's the killer. It blinds me. It doesn't help that
there is someone hurt and that I'm part of the cause. I hope this
comes across right but it doesn't matter if I'm really to blame
in that situation. The guilt I feel is independent of that. It is
enough that I'm part of the cause. I cause hurt whether or not I
will it. And that means that, because I do know this, that I must
accept blame for the hurt I cause.

I don't know how to deal with this. I wish to offer some kind of
help, recompense, whatever, to her. But I feel like even doing
that would be wrong. It isn't my place, maybe, or just that I'd
be using that as a handle. I don't know. My feelings say: stay
away no matter what; you'll hurt her some more. The rest of me
says: you owe her and may not let your fears prevent your
assuming your obligation.

I don't know what I should do. Yes, where it comes to the APS, I
know: let the facts be available and let people judge for
themselves. Most people are, for sure, going to condemn me. But
as long as they have an understanding, so long as they condemn me
for the right reasons or something close, I will be satisfied.

But should I offer recompense to Relkie? Also: there are things I
could say to Relkie that might be of some use to her. Just
rational things but they do come from me. Is that good or bad?
What about where I've been the last two months? Do I have the
right to talk about my own hurts that came out of this? Or would
that be manipulative? Would that be invalidating her pain?

I just had my first experience of some younger part of me
reaching out of my mind to where I can hear him. All he did was
scream "Don't touch me" over and over. I still hear him a little,
in the background. Why now? What does it mean? I remember that
screaming; both times, I had tried to escape from a place of pain.

I have to stop.


Prisoner



--
To use this service, send EMAIL to:
anon-ping@twwells.com  -- test path/get anonymous id
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Newsgroups: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
From: bu850@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Karla M. Alwan)
Subject: Re: The Relkie Problem?
Reply-To: bu850@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Karla M. Alwan)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 92 22:43:15 GMT


In a previous article, nancy@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Nancy Lebovitz) says:

>I've been wondering if there could be an administrative solution--one
>group for strictly healing work, and a looser group for dealing with
>everything else. 

what about a moderated news group?  But I suppose that the moderator
would need to be someone that is not involved in posting to
this group...  I think this would discourage manipulative and/or
abusive posts from originating int the first place...  And thus
kill any flames....  Who needs flames?...in this news group
anyway...

>
>I hope that this is of some use.
>
>Have a good month,
>Nancy Lebovitz
>
>


-Karla

-- 
|alwan573@pirates.armstrong.edu   <=== USE THIS ONE!          
|Karla.Alwan@lambada.oit.unc.edu             |
|ng548@dsom_op.pnl.gov                       |
|bu850@cwns16.ins.cwru.edu                   |
From: erc@unislc.uucp (Ed Carp)
Subject: Re: ***I WON'T LET MYSELF BE A MUPPET***
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5
Organization: Unisys Corporation SLC
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 22:21:22 GMT

Z57N000 (Z57N@UNB.CA) wrote:

: I am not flaming, but I am being stern here: I doubt that Bill
: would be feeling guilt over the matter if he was not to blame
: for something. However, to me, blame ("he did it") and assignation
: of responsibility for one's actions are slightly different. I am
: trying to put across the latter, not the former.

WHOA!  HOLD ON!  My BS detector just went off big time.  I remember having
many, many discussions with survivors about the subject of guilt.  Do you,
Relkie, feel guilty about what happened to you?  Does that mean you are to
blame for your abuse?

: What kind of recompense are we talking about here? Certainly a
: debt has been incurred here -- but i don't know what the hell
: can be done about paying it back. Elaborate.

Huh?  How do you figure that sexual abuse and/or rape can be equated to
an issue of compensation?  That sounds too much like "sex for consideration",
even after the fact.
-- 
Ed Carp, N7EKG     erc@apple.com                801/538-0177
"This is the final task I will ever give you, and it  goes  on  forever.   Act
happy, feel happy, be happy, without a reason in the world. Then you can love,
and do what you will."           -- Dan Millman, "Way Of The Peaceful Warrior"
Newsgroups: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
From: sfjr@wam.umd.edu (Sherri)
Subject: Re: annonymous posting service
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 21:51:26 GMT

In article <Bt2512.BCs@twwells.com> anon-1186@twwells.com (Lavender) writes:
>
>> Anonymous posters: STOP! Think about it. Do you really, really want
>> to risk what you're risking?
>
>I find this rather frightening to read in this newsgroup.
>
>Is there another annonymous posting service or is this the only one?

THis is the only service I know of.  people have talked about starting another
one, but nothing has come of it.  There is another possibility that some
people have tried--you can send your posts to someone here that you trust
and have them delete any identifying information and post it for you.
Replies would go back to them, and they would then have to forward them to
you, so it can be a bit of work.  If you'd feel more comfortable with that,
though, it may be worth it.  Actually, it doesn't have to be anyone here,
of course, anyone with an account who you trust to keep your identity
to themselves would be okay.

>
>And I do not understand what I am risking?
>
I believe that there is an anon-help file?  There are generally periodic
descriptions of the anonymous posting service.  I really recommend that
everyone using the Anonymous Posting Service read these.

The main concern that I think people using the service would have is that
Bill Wells, the anon-ADMIN, does have access to your real email address.
It's possible that he may never look at your actual address in order
to put it together with your posts, in fact, I don't know of a case where
he's done so.  DISCLAIMER--I'm not claiming that it's never happened or
that it never will, I'm not willing to vouch for anyone.  But I've been
around through all of this, and I haven't heard of a case where Bill has
done any of these things.

>I need a hug after trying to figure out what the previous poster was saying !!!
>
Here's a big one, and a few extra to spare :)

>--
>To use this service, send EMAIL to:
>anon-ping@twwells.com  -- test path/get anonymous id
>anon-help@twwells.com  -- for a help message

>>>Ah! Here it is!  ^^^^^^^^^^^^ 

Sherri

P.S.  In case you aren't really concerned about the address but just
don't want to your whole name to show up (like me, but I use a different
account anyway)--This works on my machine.  outside of 'news' I type
setenv NAME "Sherri"
which lasts only until I log out, but
cfn
lets you make longer term changes, I believe.
From: fsacp@acad3.alaska.edu
Newsgroups: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
Subject: Therapist and Rejection!!!!
Date: 14 Aug 1992 07:02:10 GMT
Organization: University of Alaska Fairbanks

Hi everyone,
  I kinda had a bad morning this morning (8-13-92).  I saw my counselor
and she felt that we needed to take a break, but left it up to me
as to whether I want to or not.  I told her what *I* thought we needed
a break from was the joint sessions because I've seen her siding with
1 of us depending on the issues discussed.  She was rather pissed when
I brought the idea up that she was trying to cover too much ground
at once!

  She asked me what the scariest thing was for me right now and I told her
"Raising Aaron" so she's recommending that I see the Child Therapist that
works at the same place, and "Call her when I need her".

  This is all happening with ONLY 12 days *Grits Teeth* till my mom get's
here!  
  I also told her that the other "Scary thing" is Art's sex change thoughts!
Well she looked at me and said "Well you don't have enough money to do it right
now and it will be a while before you do have the money" then she changed the
subject!  She made it VERY clear that she did NOT want to discuss the issue of
Art thinking about a sex change!  She believes and has told Art that he is only
investigating!

  I told her that I think she's having a hard time staying neutral when in the
joint sessions, and she said "What I find hard is a decision *I* have to make"

  Just a real shitty morning!  I may ask Art about the possibility of my going
into counseling at another place here in Fairbanks, it's still up in the air
and all depends on finances!

  Anyways I could REALLY use the support, that this group has shown in the
past!

Thanks and *HUGS* to all who need and want them
Jay
Newsgroups: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
From: bear@tigger.cs.Colorado.EDU (Bear Giles)
Subject: Re: Abuse
Organization: National Oceanic & Atmospheric Adminstration / Boulder Labs
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 23:52:35 GMT

In article <90.23358@incc.com> mikey@incc.com (Michelle) writes:
>So my question is this, is
>there anyone out there who has ever gone back to the person(s) who has
>abused you and ask them why they have done what they did to you ? and
>if so, did it help you ?

This is secondhand, but when my mother learned I was starting to see
a psychologist she commented that "they always trace it back to the
parents."  (I know I got a lot of discouragement from her directly,
but she made that comment to another relative).

It's quite ironic: I started focusing on our relationship _because_ she
was so hostile to me asking a psychologist about Pam and other issues
totally unrelated to her.


Bear Giles
bear@fsl.noaa.gov
Newsgroups: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
From: abbruzzs@bcvms.bc.edu
Subject: to everyone out there thanks
Organization: Boston College
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 19:26:44 GMT

to everyone out there thamks.  I am beginning to understand.  
It will take much longer foer me to know.
Newsgroups: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
From: cloister@milton.u.washington.edu (cloister bell)
Subject: Re: The Relkie Problem?
Organization: University of Washington
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 18:54:34 GMT

nancy@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Nancy Lebovitz) writes:

[ many excellent suggestions and observations removed for now ]

>I've been wondering if there could be an administrative solution--one
>group for strictly healing work, and a looser group for dealing with
>everything else. 

as in an 'alt.sexual.abuse.recovery.d' group?  this has been proposed in the
past.  my personal feeling is that it wouldn't work.  .d groups never manage to
remove the fluff from the groups they go with.  i think it would especially not
work here, because there is such a fuzzy distinction between what is 'healing
work' and what isn't.  in some sense all of it is, because we are all people
who need to test and refine our boundries, and experiment with ways of
interacting with other people.  i don't think i could come up with a definition
of what is healing work and what isn't.  one thing i fear is that asar would
lose some of the quality of postings it has now, and asar.d would become a
flame group -- something i think we just *don't* need at all.  

i would just as soon work things out in this single group.  i think we can do
it, people.  we just have to work at understanding eachother a little more.  if
someone posts something that sets you off or pushes one of your buttons, would
it hurt to sit back for a minute and try to figure out why the person posted
that way before replying?  and before posting something in the first place,
would it hurt to reflect for a moment on what your own honest motives are for
making the post?  i think that a general agreement to do these two things would
really help to ease tensions around here.  i will try to do this when i post.

>Have a good month,
>Nancy Lebovitz

you too, nancy.  i hope that memory gets easier for you to deal with.  i look
forward to seeing your posts again in a few weeks.
-- 
+-------------------------------------------------+---------------------------+
|tactical nuclear sdi stealth nsafood signature.  | cloister@u.washington.edu |
+-------------------------------------------------+---------------------------+
From: kingj@hpcc01.corp.hp.com (John C. King)
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 19:22:56 GMT
Subject: Re: Soap Opera
Organization: the HP Corporate notes server
Newsgroups: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery

>But Relkie ...
>you can't turn asar into a soap opera ...
>contribute Relkie, don't dominate ...
>Please pipe down and join us...

>-Karla

I agree.  But since I am human I have taken sides.  If What's His Name is
in a position of power (agewise certainly, and being the asar anon admin?)
then he abused Karla.  There's no whining or sniveling or "buts" that will
change my opinion.

John
Newsgroups: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
From: sfjr@wam.umd.edu (Sherri)
Subject: Re: trust and doctors
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 19:55:13 GMT

In article <Bt9A1K.IsL@twwells.com> anon-1160@twwells.com (poohbear) writes:
>
>I told my doctor about my really deep cuts and HE DIDN'T SEND ME TO THE
>HOSPITAL!  HE DIDN'T CALL THE POLICE OR EMERGENCY SERVICES!  He told me
>to buy special bandaids that can hold wounds shut.  He trusted me.
>
>I feel so good.  I talked about it with him today, and he said he had made
>a judgement call.  If he had then heard on the radio that a woman was
>found hanging in her apt, he would have severely screwed up.  But he
>made a decision, based on how I was on the phone, that I was stable
>enough to hang in there, and that the hospital was NOT the way to go.
>

This is great!  I'm sure it was a really difficult decision for him to
make, but I'm glad he did.  I've been concerned that you didn't have
anyone to call when things get really bad.  Hopefully, slowly but surely,
enough trust will develop so that you can call him sooner and sooner.
One of the most helpful ways to deal with cutting is to get a phone list
together of people you can call when the desire to cut is really strong.
I know how difficult it is to start doing that, cause it's easy to just
think, 'but if I call him/her, then I won't be able to cut myself and I
just don't think I can handle this pain without doing that'.  But talking
really can help sometimes.  I don't think anyone just 'stops cutting', most
of us just find other things to do when we feel that way.  Have you read
the FAQ section on cutting, by the way?

>I feel I have won a battle.  I don't wanna think about the war...
>

Just keep winning one thing at a time =)

>As a side note:  Does anyone know if going to the ER with self-inflicted wounds
>means you may have to stay there and go to a psych ward or something?  I know
>it is probably particular to each case, but I am wondering.  My cutting
>is getting worse even though I am beginning to hAve some good hours.
>

Yes, it's probably different with each case.  I'd really recommend developing
a set of plans with your doctor.  Decide together when you really should
go to the hospital, under what conditions you should stay there, and what
forms of treatment should definitely be avoided.  Also discuss what sorts
of progress you hope to make in order to stay out of the hospital.  This
may help to give you a feeling of control even when you're really feeling
out of control.  What you're going through now is pretty scary, and
I would hate to see you having to always avoid medical care when you
need it.

If you can, try and do something nice for yourself today.  I'll be thinking
about you.

Sherri



Newsgroups: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery