From: cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
Subject: Re: I waste my time (was: Hitler as Occultist (was: Numbers))
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: 14 Aug 92 02:51:56 GMT

In article <1992Aug14.001630.23013@unislc.uucp> erc@unislc.uucp (Ed Carp) writes:
>John Greer (grimoire@byron.u.washington.edu) wrote:
>
>: a)  Politics are more or less the same throughout history and around the
>:     world: pretty much the lowest common denominator of human behavior,
>
>One thing that you didn't mention is that politics very often drives religious
>belief, not the other way 'round.  

You didn't go far enough on this one.  Politics and organized religion
are identical.  Why else would you WANT to dogmatize a religion but for
political reasons? 

>Hitler may have claimed he was a Christian
>because it would have brought him more political power. Why does Jimmy Swaggert
>claim he's a Christian? (Yes, Scott, I've read Swaggert, most notably "Straight
>Answers to Tough Questions" ... I found it wanting, to say the least)  Because
>if he didn't, his followers would flock to someone else, depriving him of the
>money and power associated with being an evangelist.  

And again I say: WHAT IS IT WITH CHRISTIANITY THAT LENDS IT TO SUCH
ABUSES?  You can't have a dogmatic religion without this happening. 

>Same with most other
>evangelists.  One of the very few I listen to (and like) is Kenneth Hagin.
>At least he knows how to cut through the bullshit.  Scott, I would recommend
>"Growing Up, Spiritually" as required reading.  It's Christian-oriented, to
>be sure, but if you take out the biblical justifications for things, it still
>makes a hell of a lot of sense.  Stuff like "don't talk about people behind
>their back", "don't flaunt your religion", etc.  Stuff that could go for just
>about *anyone* - not just Christians.  

You can get that from just about any faith/religion/spirituality.  It
exists in christianity (though the dogma tends to make Yahveh look like
a spoiled kid who won't share his toys with anyone else).  One big
sticking point I have with christianity, though, is the way it pretends
to be the ONLY religion that has its shit together.  I was educated
through twelve long, unpleasant years of catholic school (although my
upbringing at home was secular in the extreme), so I know whereof I
speak.  I remember having it explicitly stated that christianity was the
first and only world religion to come up with the golden rule.  This was
an out-and-out lie, as were many other things they taught like they were
the tablets from the mountain (excuse the imagery).  Christianity has in
the past shown a very condescending attitude toward other
spiritualities.

Biblical justifications also seem to me to be a problem.  WHY do you
need to have it written down in some book somewhere that you shouldn't
kill or steal?  CAn't you figure it out on your own?  That commandment
never stopped ANYONE from pulling a trigger.  You can't take rules for
sane living out of people's heads and stick them on paper; that
accomplishes nothing.  I do not steal not because some book says don't
but because I know it'll find its way back to me somehow -- I'll be
forced to regard people with suspicion, and prices for ME will go up.
We can't point to a few printed words somewhere and say, "This is why
you shouldn't do this."  Telling kids "Just say no" is the same kind of
crap.  Neither kids nor adults are little robots with switches in the
back of their necks that you can flip from yes to no.  You must TALK to
people, give them justification in their own lives, not point to some
book and say, "That says you shouldn't, so you can't."  This attitude of
biblical justification is damaging, IMO.  Every time something comes up
that requires reflection, people reach for something outside of
themselves to tell them what to do -- they look for enlightenment
somewhere other than in themselves.  Instead of thinking about it and
asking themselves "Is this really such a good idea?" they reach for a
book somewhere and flip through it until they find the answer.  Or they
look up at someone -- as Starhawk said (yes, I cracked the damn thing)
-- some Great Man somewhere to tell them what to do, be it Karl Marx,
Jesus Christ, or Werner Erhard. 

People don't need any more justifications from outside; they need to be
taught how acting crummy affects their lives as well.  Don't kill
because it will ruin your life, and make other people miserable.  Don't
steal because you will be forced to "dwell in doubtful joy," as
Shakespeare put it.  Don't bear false witness because someone will do it
to you, and all you'll buy is a blood enemy if you do it anyway.  Honor
your mother and father because they worked hard to teach you how to be a
decent person (if you're lucky --
I wonder why parents are not required to honor their
kids, though . . . we could use a lot more of that, too).  Don't covet
anything of your neighbor's because all it will accomplish is giving you
ulcers and hating some poor slob who probably didn't do anything to
deserve it.

It's called the Threefold Law of Return and it's one of the nice things 
*I* found happliy mentioned VERY EXPLICITLY in P/paganism/witchcraft.  
(My own mind had always gravitated toward it thanks to my secular
upbringing, and I was pleasantly surprised to find this spirituality
that already resonated with so many of my own attitudes.  I have
however, remained a Solitary for a while to get my own head straightened
out as to what I want before jumping into any group thang -- for
precisely this reason.  I didn't want outside dogma interfering with my
own decision making process.  I didn't find this attitude welcomed in
christianity; I *did* feel welcome in witchcraft.) 
You are most accountable for your
actions.  If society had a hand in your going bad, fine.  What with the
way some people are crapped on, this is no shock.  Now what are you
going to do about it?  Live your life in a shitty way, then sit back
when you're 70, suck your gums and complain about how you never lived
the way you should have?  Society's influence can be a REASON, but not
an EXCUSE.  Sooner or later, your actions will bounce back at you --
THAT'S why you don't need a set of ten or twenty or a million laws
anywhere telling you "Don't."  No, you CAN'T find the answer to life's
questions in ANY book.  No, enlightenment isn't WRITTEN DOWN anywhere.
Read the books for good information and to sample other people's
experiences, then shut them and make up your
mind; get the old gray matter moving!  

And I haven't found this attitude fostered in any of the organized
religions.

Well, this turned into more of a ramble than I had planned on, and it
ended up going in a totally different direction.  Ah, well.  

>I will be quick to point out, however, that being a Christian is as often a
>political label as it is a religious one.  Paganism is getting the same way. :(

We don't have as much political power, though, and frankly, most
P/pagans I've encountered have been pretty harmless and quite tolerant.
I'm well aware that there are exceptions.  My xtian friends back home
are in no way prepared to accept what I call myself nowdays; I have
rarely met P/pagans who felt that way.  Frankly, I'd rather stay with
the people who are more likely to accept me.  When I meet up with a
xtian, I am aware of the reception I've gotten in the past, and I must
admit I am wary.  I have learned from the past; that is what human
beings do.  If that person is accepting, fine.  But, they usually aren't
(more so back home than out here). 

>:     However, that's _not_ what the historical record shows.  Most faiths
>:     have been used in this way, true -- but to a widely varying extent.
>:     Some of the Eastern traditions are near one end of the spectrum.
>:     Christianity is at the other.
>
>That's because Christianity, like many western-based religions, puts the
>power (and the responsibility) for stuff in the hands of someone else -
>whether it be your pastor, Jesus Christ, or God.  Eastern traditions more
>often place responsibility (and power) in the hands of the individual.

Absolutely.  It's hard to imagine someone whipping up a jihad in Zen
terms. 

>"God told me to..." is a familiar theme in so-called "religious-based"
>violence and oppression.  Using religion as an excuse to exercise political
>power is a very old excuse, made even more convenient by the belief in a
>deity outside oneself to place responsibility (or blame) on.  Hell, I've
>seen the same scenario in Wiccan circles.  Same power games.

Again, the Wiccan circles aren't in such a position of power.  Besides,
if that person tried to foist themselves on others outside their sphere
of influence -- WATCH OUT!  Look what happened with the UFP debacle.

>: As a final note, a few months ago religious factions in the Republican
>: party in the state where I live pushed through a party platform which
>: would, among other things, deprive gay and lesbian people of their civil
>: rights, forbid P/pagans from a range of occupations (including teaching),
>: and mandate specifically Christian prayer in the schools.  Ideas do,
>: indeed, shape behavior.
>
>I get *so* tired of people using "<insert name of favorite deity here> told
>me/wrote it/whatever, so it's infallible truth, so if you don't believe the
>way *I* do, you're not entitled to practice your religion."  Because so many
>Christians interpret "I am the way" as a statement of religious superiority
>(indeed, even religious intolerance), we are seeing an upswing in religious
>intolerance that may soon rival the Inquisitory times. :(

I think that may also be due to the problems the world at large is
having -- people are looking for someplace else to point the Flying
Fickle Finger of Fate.  Just as science is denigrated occasionally among
new spiritualists (since there are few enough of us to go around),
P/pagans are denigrated for the same reason.  Always point the damned
thing away from yourself.   

Also (a minor peeve) -- it's DEITY.  As in day-it-tee -- spelled similar
to its pronunciation.  Not a big
problem, but it grates a little.

Blessings, 
Janis