HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Date:         Sun, 5 Apr 1992 15:33:17 EDT
From:         Lenny Abbey <LABBEY@GTRI01.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Historically Inaccurate Film/tv
              5 Apr 1992 13:52:03 EST from <PATODZIA@SUVM.BITNET>

You believe Suetonius?

And you don't believe Hollywood?

Strange.

Lenny
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Date:         Wed, 8 Apr 1992 08:41:49 EDT
From:         Ken Koester <MAINT2@ERS.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: historically accurate TV

On Tue, 7 Apr 1992 13:39:00 EDT <DGPAZ@CLEMSON> said:
>Some scholars recently have looked at desertion rates in the
>Confederate army (high) and at the messages sent by women at home to
>their loved ones at the front lines (desponding), and use this
>evidence to argue that morale in the army declined as defeat grew
>more likely (a common-sense view, certainly), and that lots of
>yeoman farmers were pretty unenthusiastic about the cause.
>
Surely you'd have to look at desertion rates for both sides, wouldn't you?
Or else you might think morale was especially bad when it wasn't.  Also,
considering the crazy-quilt nature of enlistments, re-enlistments, furloughs
and the like, I wonder that you can show much of anything--or maybe that's
the point of the question of morale.  My readings give me the impression that
folk were more ambivalent the higher in the hills and the further from
plantations and towns they got.
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Date:         Mon, 6 Apr 1992 14:04:00 EDT
From:         "JESSICA...THAT ROSE GIRL" <STURYAN@EKU.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: historically accurate TV

Reply to Michael Cammer:

I believe Roots in the most part, was an accurate portrayal, give or take
the little bit of "glamour" Hollywood had to add in order to make it
"exciting" for the mini-series genre...

Did you watch it last week when (I believe it was TNT) played six hours
of it straight?  I'm not sure if the last six (or how many ever it was)
has been on yet or not?!!

Jessica "with my 2 cents worth"
-----<---<-<{@
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Date:         Thu, 9 Apr 1992 10:21:00 EDT
From:         RATH@BRANDEIS.BITNET
Subject:      Re: films & history

re: literature and history
        IMHO, literature can be valuable to achieving a subjective 'feel'
for a place, time, or idea.  But because of their very nature, the accuracy
of the derived insights is wholly unascertainable in any empirical form.  The
trick, then, is to steep the reader, whether oneself or one's student,
in the context which the literature is to illuminate.
Some examples of such grounded use of literature in courses which I have taken
are:
-Alan Paton's <Cry Beloved Country> in an African History Survey course, in
order to get a feel for the people, backgrounds and terrain of apartheid S Af.
-<To Kill a Mockingbird>used to illustrate on a personal level some of
the effects and ramifications of racism in the depression era US South.  I had
read this book several times and enjoyed it without the context, but when I
read it in the context of riots, depression, JimCrow, lynchings, and class
relations in the early twentieth c. US, it somehow brought to life the
statistics.
-Edward Bellamy's <Looking Backward> to illustrate some of the strengths and
foibles of the mentalite of progressive era social theorists.
-L. Frank Baum's <Wizard of OZ> (more the book than the movie--the slippers
are silver, not ruby, but silver didn't film as well) as a satire on US turn-of
the-century populism.  See if you can find William Jennings Bryan,
The Gold Standard, The Frontier Thesis.  Why are the good witches form the
East and West & the bad ones from the North and South?  Did Edward Bellamy
know the "wizard?"  What about those winged monkeys (see the book on this)?
Careful--the movie will never look the same.
-The <Brer Rabbit> tales.  When viewed as cultural documents rather than for
aesthetics, many of the structural features of these stories can be traced
from the US South back to West and Central Africa.

Rich Rath
Dpt of History
Brandeis University
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Date:         Mon, 6 Apr 1992 14:47:00 EST
From:         ekfriedm@THAMA1.APGEA.ARMY.MIL
Subject:      Facts about Grant's Tomb
Comments: To: history%ubvm.bitnet@thama1.apgea.army.mil

>Well said, Jim. Since the debate over Grant's Tomb has arisen, I can't help
>wondering why it was built in New York City in the first place. Certainly,
>few have argued that Grant would be remembered as a great president
>after his death in 1885. Does anyone know how New York City won out
>over Grant's home town, Arlington Cemetery, or a Civil War cemetery?
>Aside from the perennial joke, is the tomb considered a major
>attraction? It appears to me that it would be wiser (and cheaper) to
>consider a re-internment at a more "honored" site.

>Bob Spore
>Virginia Community College System
>Bitnet: SOSPORR@VCCSCENT

    As a former Columbia undergrad, I lived for several years in the
    vicinity of Grant's Tomb.  It's adjacent to Riverside Park, and
    overlooks the Hudson River.  It's a secluded part of a marginal
    neighborhood, and unsafe at night, although it gets a lot of
    jogger/bicyclist traffic daytimes.  Few tourists go there, except as an
    afterthought to visting the Cathedral of St. John the Divine, which is
    nearby, and on the tour bus "must see" list.

    I believe New York won out for the tomb because Grant made his home
    there after leaving the White House.  Moreover, I recall it was built by
    (local) public subscription rather than a Federal grant (no pun).

    Re that perennial joke: There IS someone buried at (not in) Grant's
    Tomb.  The child of the farmer who formerly owned the land died in a
    fall down the embankment to the river below, and is buried there.  I
    believe one can still find the headstone in the woods.

    Eliot
    ekfriedm@thama1.apgea.army.mil
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Date:         Wed, 8 Apr 1992 20:25:00 EST
From:         WUCHEB@YALEVMS.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Latin Dictionary on PC?

Lynn:  Thank you for doing all these works.
                                           Thomas
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
From: "Stephen C. Miller" <stcmille@copper.ucs.indiana.edu>
Subject: Re: Films & History
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1992 13:33:24 -0500

In article <74A1A7C7137FE0A83E@VXC.UNCWIL.EDU> STUACTPK@UNCWIL.BITNET (PETER KERSTETTER) writes:
>Has anyone ever seen THE GRAND ILLUSION, directed by Jean Renoir.  The
>film depicts some French soldiers and how they try to escape from a
>German prison camp during the First World War.  The question I have is
>whether such "friendship" existed in the 1910s between the French and
>the Germans as the film showed.  Just how common was the relationship
>between the French nobleman and the German elite prison commander?

I can't speak to the questions of fraternization at all.  But I would
like to point out that this is a wonderful film.  Von Stroheim as a
prison camp commandant is compelling.

I took the friendships as more of a symbol of the decline of the old
order, which was hierarchical and royal, and the rise of the "little
man."  This is really the theme of the movie, and also, I think, what
the title refers to.  
-- 
--------------------
=Steve Miller	 		    stcmille@copper.ucs.indiana.edu
		(Former rock star turned grad student)
  Happyhappy joyjoy happyhappy joyjoy happyhappy joyjoy happyhappy joyjoy
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Date:         Mon, 6 Apr 1992 16:23:59 EDT
From:         Lenny <LABBEY@GTRI01.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: historically accurate TV
              6 Apr 1992 10:45:45 EDT from <cammer@AECOM.YU.EDU>

I cannot prove it, but I think Roots was biased in that it did not
portray the portion of the white population which did not participate in
slavery.

True, one such white family was depicted, but it was sort of low on life's
totem pole.

I suspected that there were very many, perhaps even a majority, of whites who
knew that slavery was wrong, and did not support their government in that
issue.

I am only three generations from the days of the Confederacy, and I was
taught that everyone was equal PERIOD.   We could not have picked up this
attitude in 70 years.

Leonard Abbey
Georgia Tech
Research Institute
labbey@gtri01.gatech.edu
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Date:         Thu, 9 Apr 1992 22:52:16 EST
From:         Anne Kearney <JCCANNEK@UKCC.UKY.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Jefferson Davis (?)

I would add to Lenny's post that JD spent his last years with a beautiful
view of the Gulf of Mexico from Mississippi.  I have forgotten the exact
location of his home, but it is now a museum operated by the Daughters of the
Confederacy.  No doubt someone on the list will know the exact address.


Seems that JD got off with little punishment compared to Dr. Mudd who
was in a real hell hole for years for setting John Wilkes Booth's broken
leg!  Rank had its privileges even then.

Another aside.  His original plantation was bought by his former
overseerer who was freed from slavery by the 13th Amendment.

ANNE KEARNEY
HISTORY PROGRAM
JEFFERSON COMMUNITY COLLEGE - UNIVERSITY OF KENTUCKY
109 EAST BROADWAY
LOUISVILLE, KY 40202
(502) 584-0181, EXT. 353
JCCANNEK@UKCC
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Date:         Tue, 7 Apr 1992 11:09:00 EDT
From:         RATH@BRANDEIS.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Opening Day reminds me

Lynn:
        Hi.  I am a new subscriber to the list, a first year gradx student at Br
   andeis University.  I saw your posting about an English/Latin word list.
If you could, I would really appreciate it if you could send me a copy.
I thoroughly enjoyed "Of Judy Thorkelson's Shining Hour."

Best
Rich Rath
Dpt of History
Breandeis University
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Date:         Wed, 8 Apr 1992 21:17:24 CDT
From:         "Robert S. Rush" <rsr1@RA.MSSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: social history

Haines
Who do you prefer, Toynbee or Spengler?  It appears that all of the above
answers were addressed quite a few years ago.  Maybe universal history
will come back into vogue.
Comments
Rob Rush
rsr1@msstate.edu
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Date:         Sun, 5 Apr 92 20:03:53 CDT
Reply-To:     History <HISTORY@IRLEARN>
From:         C581315@UMCVMB
Subject:      HISTORICALLY ACCURATE FILMS


Among the recent films I've seen, I'd have to recommend `Glory',
`A Bridge Too Far', and `Henry V' as some of the films that closely
follow their subjects historical frame of events and include many
accurate details, which while not central to the story enhance
credibility. Oliver Stone films have a unique way of causing contro-
versy by walking a thin line between historical accuracy and fictional
entertainment. While Stone doesn't always cross his t's in weaving his
yarns, his films are good at capturing images and emotional devices
that give one a sense of the era. Many `historical' films have the
characteristics of a Stone movie, and while not perfectly accurate,
can still be used with great effect in instruction.
                  Brian Elsesser, Univ. of MO
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Date:         Mon, 6 Apr 1992 12:29:00 EDT
From:         DGPAZ@CLEMSON.BITNET
Subject:      Re: History through Films

On Mon, 6 Apr 1992 10:38:51 EDT Michael Cammer <cammer@AECOM.YU.EDU> said:

> The question about historical accuracy in films may be somewhat off the
> mark.  The films we have chosen to discuss are commercial or artistic;
> even when the producers/directors hire historians, they take artistic
> or formulaic (for marketing purposes) liberties,

This point is well taken. This category of film is fictional, and
thus is judged by the aesthetic standards appropriate to fiction.
The historical novel/costume drama is a subset of fiction. Because
it is in part a reconstruction of the past through the imagination
of the artist, I suppose it has its own special standards. I would
expect an historical novel/costume drama to be true to the past, but
I would not apply to it the same standard that I would to something
that purports to be a scholarly reconstruction of the past.

> and the way films are
> constructed precludes historical accuracy.

 I don't think that I agree here. What is it about the way that
films are constructed that precludes historical accuracy? I would not
say that the way that prose is constructed precludes historical
accuracy. What is there about the medium of film that in your
view precludes historical accuracy?

> Films, even documentries,
> are fictional constructs.  We, for practical reasons, accept documentaries
> as fact-- but it is perverse to talk of the historical accuracy in a film
> about Lancelot and Arthur battling over a perfect woman.

Here I definitely disagree. In what way is a documentary film a
fictional construct? Let us take as example the Granada TV/Bamber
Gascoigne series on the history of Christianity, _The Christians_.
Historians can subject that series to critical review in the same
way that we would subject a prose work such as _The Pelican History
of Christianity_. It is perverse to talk of the historical accuracy in
a film about Lancelot and Arthur battling over a perfect woman--the
super film _Excaliber_ comes to mind--but we can talk of the
historical accuracy in a film about the evolution over time of the
Arthurian legend.

> Now let's look at _Who's Afraid of Virginia Wolfe_.  It is unabashedly
> a play, a stage drama.  It is a crazy constructed story.  It is about
> its mediums, cinema:  acting and dircting.  But it is
> also a poignant slice of real American life.

This is one of my favorite films. When I saw it as an undergraduate,
I thought that it was about being a history professor. Now that I am
a history professor, I know that it is about being a history prof!

> We need to re-evaluate the assumptions we have about historically accuracy
> in film.  Especially where the films themselves may be history.

Michael Cammer is right here. Both the _Journal of American History_
and the _American Historical Review_ have film reviews. What criteria
do they want their film reviewers to use?

Denis Paz
Department of History
Clemson University
South Carolina, U.S.A.
dgpaz@clemson.bitnet
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Date:         Mon, 6 Apr 1992 18:14:00 EDT
From:         PETER KERSTETTER <STUACTPK@UNCWIL.BITNET>
Subject:      Films & History

Has anyone ever seen THE GRAND ILLUSION, directed by Jean Renoir.  The
film depicts some French soldiers and how they try to escape from a
German prison camp during the First World War.  The question I have is
whether such "friendship" existed in the 1910s between the French and
the Germans as the film showed.  Just how common was the relationship
between the French nobleman and the German elite prison commander?

>>>Peter
STUACTPK@VXC.UNCWIL.EDU
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Date:         Fri, 10 Apr 1992 08:14:49 EDT
From:         Ken Koester <MAINT2@ERS.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: films & history

On Thu, 9 Apr 1992 12:35:00 EDT <DGPAZ@CLEMSON> said:
>As my understanding of Victorian society has deepened, I have a deeper
>understanding of the nuances and sub-texts in the novels, parliamentary
>debates, reports of gov't inspectors, &c., &c. My deeper understanding
>of the nuances and sub-texts gives me a deeper understanding of the
>society that produced these artefacts, &c., &c. The process comes to
>an end when I die.
>                                                                        k.
To which I can only reply that after reading the Bronte's, Eliot, Trollope,
Dickens, and Hardy, I think I have the *flavor* of the times. . . but I'm
deuced if I can see how my *historical understanding* of them has improved one
whit.  (All right, one whit--but surely not two)  O well, to each his/her own.
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Date:         Thu, 9 Apr 1992 08:41:10 EDT
From:         VH2@NIHCU.BITNET
Subject:      Suggestions for American history course books

If you want to examine the impact of medicine and
science on American culture, I recommend a new, short
history of medicine in America designed to be used
in survey American history courses: James H. Cassedy,
_Medicine in America: A Short History_ (Baltimore:
Johns Hopkins University Press, 1991).  Although it is
not a book of primary sources, it contains essays that
should stimulate thought about this aspect of American
history.

Victoria A. Harden
National Institutes of Health
Bethesda, MD
vh2@nihcu
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Date:         Tue, 14 Apr 1992 14:29:03 CST
From:         Pilgrim <PILGRIM@UKANVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Latin word

    Can anyone tell me the meanings of the word "admitti?" It would seem to
bea form of "admisso," but I cannot figure out what form; nor can I find in
the Vulgate. Thanx for your help.


                             Sheldon Todd Wilson
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Date:         Wed, 8 Apr 1992 15:58:00 CST
From:         SHIRLEY@RHODES.BITNET
Subject:      Re: social history

Bob:
        This sounds like a good idea. Sign me up.

Michael Shirley
Dept. of History
Rhodes College
Memphis, Tn.
From: jsanders@matt.ksu.ksu.edu (Justin M. Sanders)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Subject: Re:      Re: Jefferson Davis (?)
Date: 13 Apr 1992 10:19:20 -0500
Organization: Kansas State University
NNTP-Posting-Host: matt.ksu.ksu.edu

In article <9233192A80206413@splava.cc.plattsburgh.edu> LAMITIRE@SNYPLAVA.BITNET writes:
>>       What happenned to Jefferson Davis after Lee surrendered at Appomatox
>>(sp?) Courthouse?
>
>Your question is a good one and I also would like an answer to it. Maybe
>someone on the list can give us an answer.

A full description of Jefferson Davis' movements from the fall of 
Richmond to his capture in Wilkinson Co, GA can be found
in
     The Long Surrender
by Burke Davis (I think).  I cannot recall now how much he treats J.D.'s
captivity and post-war career.

Hope this helps.
-- 
Justin M. Sanders         "I can trace my ancestry back to a primordial,
Dept. of Physics            protoplasmal, atomic globule."
Kansas State Univ.           --Poo-Bah, in _The_Mikado_, Act I
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Date:         Mon, 6 Apr 1992 16:38:00 EST
From:         ekfriedm@THAMA1.APGEA.ARMY.MIL
Subject:      Re: History through Films
Comments: To: history%ubvm.bitnet@thama1.apgea.army.mil

>This movie had a big effect on me when I was a kid - for stuff with a
>similar tone there's a wonderful movie by Eisenstein named after its
>hero that I'm blanking on right now - incredible Russian revolutionary
>socialist cinema with a very famous and awesome cavalry vs. footsoldier
>battle on ice at the end - Rubelov??  Anyway,t his is another one that
.
.
>But the best take on The Seventh Seal is Woody Allen's satirical
>badmitten game with death.  The second best is Bill and Ted's Battleship
>game with death.

>Steve Miller   (oracular priest)      stcmille@copper.ucs.indiana.edu

    I think you mean _Alexander Nevsky_, unless I'm blanking too.  The bad
    guys were Teutonic Knights, read Nazis.

    Was the badminton game from _Love and Death_?  I don't recall it.

    -Eliot , ekfriedm@thama1.apgea.army.mil
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Date:         Wed, 8 Apr 1992 02:04:04 PDT
From:         "Don W." <webbd@CCVAX.CCS.CSUS.EDU>
Subject:      What is Grant's Tomb?
Comments: To: HISTORY@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu

Bob Spore has some int'g ideas about relocating Grant's tomb,
or at least his burial place.  But he raises a question...

>is the tomb considered a major attraction? It appears to me that it
>would be wiser (and cheaper) to consider a re-internment at a more "honored"
>site.

Has Grant become the prisoner in death that he never was in
life?  Sorry.. I do that sort of thing, too, but I couldn't
resist...

Don W. - DonWebb@CSUS.EDU
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Date:         Fri, 17 Apr 1992 15:24:00 EDT
From:         DGPAZ@CLEMSON.BITNET
Subject: Re: Clinton's Platform is . . .?

On Fri, 17 Apr 1992 15:04:09 EDT Lenny <LABBEY@GTRI01.BITNET> said:
> Denis, you must understand that you are very intelligent, whereas I
> am stupid.  That is why you can find Clinton's platform, and I cannot.
>
It is not a question of intelligence versus stupidity. It is a
question of knowing where to look; and that knowledge comes through
experience. I am like my dog. After a lot of trial and error, my
dog figured out that he is more likely to get big chunks of food
by coming to me than by coming to my spouse. Similarly, I eventually
figured out that I am more likely to get big chunks of information
by reading newspapers and magazines than by turning on the
television.

Denis Paz
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Date:         Wed, 8 Apr 1992 10:17:00 EDT
From:         "Michael J. McCarthy" <YEA003@MARSHALL.BITNET>
Subject:      Seeking suggestions for Am. History Course Books

        I am seeking suggestions for supplementary reading books -- essay
collections, novels, secondary sources, etc., but not textbooks -- for a
300-level (Junior) survey course on American History Since 1877.

        All help is appreciated.

---
Mike McCarthy
Marshall Univ. History Dept.
Huntington, WV 25755, USA
YEA003@Marshall.WVNET.Edu
YEA003@MUVMS5.BITNET
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Date:         Sun, 5 Apr 1992 17:34:54 EST
From:         Doug Krajnik <A146@NMUMUS.BITNET>
Subject:      list of movies

Steven,
        I also love to watch medieval movies, especially Robin Hood
movies, but I don't of that many movies that exist pertaining to this
topic.  So could you please send a list of movies (hopefully
historically right) that are about this topic.  Thanks.  Also, do you
have any interest in medieval warfare (such as weapons, armor, etc)?
Just curious...

                                Doug Krajnik
                                A146@NMUMUS.BITNET
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Date:         Tue, 7 Apr 1992 13:38:36 CDT
From:         "Tracy B. Henley" <tbh1@RA.MSSTATE.EDU>
Subject:      For Joe Coohill
Comments: To: history@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu

Somehow I got a copy of an email message you sent concerning getting Apple
to lend/give you some machines. The note (I got) suggested I write and ask
you for the letter you sent them, as I have thought about doing the same
thing. Perhaps more than the letter, what I really would like to know is
who (and at what address) you contacted. I tried the local reps and they
didn't bite, so I'm guessing you talked with someone at Apple per se.

Any information would be very useful.

Thanks

Tracy Henley
Psychology
(But my one book is in the history of psychology)
Mississippi State University
tbh1@ra.msstate.edu
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