From: HF.GTD@forsythe.stanford.edu (Gabrielle Daniels)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african.american
Subject: Re: Styling, profiling and pretending
Date: 18 Nov 92 23:25:47 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Stanford University
NNTP-Posting-Host: morrow.stanford.edu

Look, Greg:

>In article <1992Nov17.210117.6639@osf.org>, >kenny@osf.org (Kenneth
Crudup) wrote to mine:

>>If I read you right, on day one, you want me to come out and say
"I don't >>think I'll be falling in love with you.  I'll treat you
right, but don't >>get any ideas, OK?  I'm not ready for a real
c*mm*tm*nt.  If something happens >>to happen, well that will be our
lucky day." >>Why I should be lucky to get a firm handshake after
that confession, much >>less spend some time with someone I
obviously would like to is left as an >>exercise for the reader.
Sistahs (and I would assume other races of women) >>just don't go
for that.

>Sorry, but there are some women (right here), black or otherwise,
>who would be grateful for such a pronouncement.  I don't think I'm
>alone on this.

No, I'm sure you're not alone on this.  Yet, there are women who
would think a guy was crazy to make a proclamation like that, on day
one, and wouldn't want to have anything to do with the guy any more.
.
.
Then, they are the wrong women in the first place.  In the case I
illustrated, it was on the second date that the man told me where he
was at.  I've also been told stuff like this on the first date as
well.

It's too bad we can't wear signs that say "The falling in love
type", or "The wanna have fun type", or "The we'll take it a day at
a time type" (that's the category I fall into).  (Even if we did
wear signs like that, they wouldn't always, or exactly, describe our
feelings at the moment.)
.
.
At least women would have a clue to work on...8 )

People make mistakes sometimes.  I didn't go into the relationship
intending to hurt my ex.  You, Gabrielle, make it sound like I had
ulterior motives in staying with my ex.  I disagree.  You are
entitled to your opinion, though.  I guess we will have to agree to
disagree on this.
.
.
No, I didn't say that.  I said a few things to the effect that:

"..While I am not saying that my man was trying to be slick with his
woman, it seemed that the situation was chock full of trouble about
to brew."

If you felt too much was being read into the actual situation, then
I apologize.  My other arguments were to be read hypothetically
beyond what you told, NOT as what was really going on.  And I've
seen too much of the other kind of behavior to let this slip by
without showing the usual side of the coin.

>>But consider this- who's got the better grasp on reality- the one
>>who comes into something expecting it to be great, and will
>>probably be eventually disappointed, or the one who's just "there"
>>and it turns out to be great.

>Why waste anybody's time, brother man.  Time's a wastin for women
>wanting commitment.

Sometimes, in a relationship where there is an unequal balance in
feelings, it takes time for the other person's feelings to catch up.
If this happens, maybe they will make a commitment, maybe not.  The
person who's waiting for commitment, IMHO, is responsible for
assessing whether it is worth the wait, *especially if* they've told
the other person that they don't mind the unequal balance of
feelings.
.
.
Possibly.  But there is disingeniousness about waiting, too.
Even a day seems like forever to certain women.  And like I said,
"they don't mind" is female machista.  And yes, they have every
right to leave if they wanna.  But as I said, if you're in love,
obsessed to the max with someone you'll do anything for or with,
you'll do/say stuff that's injurious to both of you in order to
keep him/her.  Herein my objection to it simply being just a
female thang.

Also, a relationship where there is an unequal balance in feelings
is not inherently bad.  It is still possible to have fun and good
times with your SO, even if they do not feel for you exactly what
you feel for them.
.
.
This is playacting and phony in some ways.  Maybe you're good at
this, but I am not.  Even guys sometimes swing a number on women,
verbal or otherwise, along the lines of:  "Well, don't take this
outing/gift/good sex too seriously."  That pulls the plug on any
electricity going.  You can't be yourself.

In general, a relationship isn't inherently bad unless there is some
kind of deception going on (lying, sneaking behind the other's back,
etc.) or some kind of abuse.
.
.
Yeah, right.  Some women might like loving a man too much, but
I've been there and it's no party, believe me.  I think one can
fool herself only so far.

(This is to distinguish from a relationship where one or more
parties aren't happy.  I acknowledge that my ex wasn't happy, but
there was no way I could have known this, because she insisted that
she was.)
.
.
Again, let me remind you of female machista and disingeniousness in
order to hold on to someone.  If you didn't know then, that's too
bad and I don't fault you, but you are asking for it later on if you
repeat this.

>Simple, brother.  Find a sister you simply want to have fun >with,
but who is NOT looking for commitment.  And I am not talking >about
hos.  There are some level-headed young women, educated, who >like
adventure.  They are there.

If someone says they are not looking for commitment, are they:  *
truly not looking for commitment, or * looking for commitment, but
not willing to say so, unless they're pressured into saying so?  and
how would you propose that someone figure this out, if they've
insisted that they're not looking for commitment?
.
.
The truly forthright sister will say right off they are not looking
for a commitment and also give reasons why she wouldn't want
anything or anyone to cramp her style at the moment.  Did girlfriend
give you any particulars at the time as to why and how she was able
to accept her unequal relationship with you?  Or did she just say,
well--OK.

>Furthermore, it's how much power you give over to a person which
>indicates the tenor of the relationship. If you want to hand the
>sister a whip, mental or physical, go right ahead. Unequal
>relationships don't make it at all for anyone.

You and I are going to have to agree to disagree on this as well.
You have as much power in a relationship as you are willing to
retain.
.
.
Brother, this is the usual macho line.  Sharing each other also
means sharing power within the relationship.  There are tradeoffs:
how much you are willing to give to the other person in order to get
something.  Too bad you can't measure intangibles, like emotions.
Otherwise, you just don't sit there and take up knitting!

Finally, to comment on something you said about men being scared of
love, commitment, etc.  Just speaking for myself here, I'm not
scared of it.  When I feel it, I say it.
.
.
Well, far out.  Hold that thought.  Who feels it, knows it.


There are some valid reasons why people are scared of love,
commitment, etc.:  still hurting from a past relationship, been
abused by a loved one, parents had a troubled marriage, etc.  If
these people are honest about how they feel about love, commitment,
etc., I don't see why they should be denied relationships -- perhaps
they would grow to love the person they're with.
.
.
I am not saying by a long shot that heterosexual guys should
declare celibacy from trying to find temporary affection with women.
What I am saying is that folks should front off as to what their
needs are early in a relationship.  Sort of a shock treatment, but
not all sisters and not all brothers are going to give you the fish
eye for it.  Phoniness, disingeniousness, playacting are out.  I've
made this plain in previous posts.  Be for real.  Stop playing these
useless, I'm-gonna-get-what-I-can-
outta-this-as-long-as-I-don't-tip-my-hand games.  Those who seek
commitment should be with those with likewise thoughts.  Folks who
wanna play, should party on with with the right partners and if
those work out to be serious, fine and jim dandy.
.
Unfortunately, the way the karma of the world works, when you
want a serious relationship, you get the players.  When you wanna
play around, you get the serious people!  You gotta kiss a lotta
frogs...
.
Front with folks and you front with the Universe to help you get
what you want.