HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: aryk@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (A.J.S. Nusbacher)
Subject: Re: Time period
Organization: University of Toronto -- Hart House
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 15:35:20 GMT

In article <3451@creatures.cs.vt.edu> jtn@nutter.cs.vt.edu (Terry Nutter) writes:

>There is an official upper bound, and it is 1600.  There are many people
>within the SCA who would like to see it extended, and some places where
>these people occur in reasonably large numbers, but it has not been
>extended.  So it would not be wise to expect acceptance of recreations
>dating past 1600 in the Society at large.

I am sure I recall reading a Governing and Policy Decision in about 1985 in
which the Directors allowed "visitors" from places which did not have sig-
nificant contact with Europe, and from Europe after 1600.

Aryk Nusbacher
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Subject: Re: History vs. dreams
Reply-To: whheydt@PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 16:17:40 GMT

In article <Bu7yxD.1oK@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> tbarnes@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (thomas wrentmore barnes) writes:
>There's a personality challenged git in my part of the world who
>inflicts himself on events in a full D&D style wizards robe, complete
>with gold lame stars, moons and comets and the pointy hat. If he does it
>much more, I'm going to make a Dominican inquisitor costume and bone up
>on canon law, heh, heh, heh. ;-} Of course, that would violate corpora
>wouldn't it. 

(Shooting from the lip . . .)  I don't see a problem with Corpora as
long as you're taking this action in any sort of official capacity.
Though you're also on your own if *he* gets offended at *your*
actions.

One is reminded of the time that Isaac the Unlikely tried to put the
squeeze of the King and Kingdom Seneschal.  He pick the *wrong* folks
to try a power play on.  However, my Lady Wife tells that story far
better than I do.

>Or, I could call him out as a charlatan and ask him to cast
>a spell or cast a correct horoscope.

It used to be said that you could have a name claiming descent from a
god if you could get the god to meet with the heralds and confirm the
relationship.  For anyone claiming to be a magician or sorceror, the
requirement was to cast a spell that worked.  It was also pointed out
what happened to people in period that made such claims . . .  But the
SCA was rather more laissez faire in those days and people were
expected to take whatever limps they earned by their own claims.  In
some ways, the SCA has become ore 'civilized' over the past 20 years
and much more solicitous of easily bruised egos.

	--Hal

        Hal Ravn, Province of the Mists, West Kingdom
        Wilson H. Heydt, Jr.,  Albany, CA 94706,  510/524-8321 (home)
-- 
Hal Heydt                    |    "Boycott Time-Warner"
Analyst, Pacific*Bell        |         --J. Danforth Quayle
510-823-5447                 |    "... kill all the lawyers."
whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM    |         --William Shakespeare
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman)
Subject: Re: Western Crown List (was Re: Inspiration)
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1992 20:21:55 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

Greetings from Arval!

Hal wrote:

> In the West, if you're a member and you're an authorized fighter, it
> is almost a given that you fight in the Crown Lists. 

I wondered:

> Are there really only 100 fighters in the West Kingdom?  

Hal answered:

> As I understand it, we're the only kingdom in the SCA to *ever* have a
> Crwon Lists top 100 entrants.  So, while your comment is quite apt, we
> appear to have a relatively high proportion of fighters that do fight
> in the Crown Lists.

Undoubtedly so, but that's quite different from "it is almost a given that
you fight in Crown Lists".  That was the point I was making.

===========================================================================
Arval Benicoeur                                       mittle@watson.ibm.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mjc+@cs.cmu.edu (Monica Cellio)
Subject: Re: Viking Tents (Was: Re: Pennsic Land Allotment)
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 14:14:01 GMT

Siobhan (hi there!) writes:
>I didn't get my copy of THE VIKING at a library, I found it in a used
>bookstore.  It really is a coffee-table book, high, deep, and wide.
>But I recommend it highly.  Wonderful stuff.  First place I ever saw a
>reconstruction of the warp-weighted loom, and I built mine based on the
>picture.

This book is very good in a number of areas.  One word of warning, however: 
the information on garb has since been superseded by archeological evidence, 
and much of what this book says on that subject is inconsistent with that
evidence.  For more up-to-date information, see CA #59 on early women's garb
and the article by Thora Sharptooth in the 1991 Pikestaff A&S issue, or write 
to me or Thora for more information and pointers to other sources.  (Ok, I 
just volunteered Thora without asking her, but I really don't think she'll 
mind.)

Ellisif
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman)
Subject: Re: An Tir Crown Tourney
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 19:40:00 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

Greetings from Arval!

> Does anyone have some other Bad Weather Crown horror stories?

I would sing you the ballad of the first Aethelmearc Coronet Tourney, held
in the midst of Hurricane Hugo, but I can't: I never made it to the event.
We we're about a third of the way there, somewhere in the Poconos, when the
wind came up and the rain came down and the car turned around and went home
to bed.

I think that Hugo should always be first on Aethelmearc's Order of
Precedence: After all, he reigned there before anyone else!

===========================================================================
Arval Benicoeur                                       mittle@watson.ibm.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: "Michael Squires" <mikes@moose.cs.indiana.edu>
Subject: Re: Pennsic prices
Summary: some numbers 
Keywords: Pennsic
Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 22:24:48 -0500

In article <1992Sep14.202251.16683@access.digex.com> corun@access.digex.com (Corun MacAnndra) writes:
>time to dispel the idea that the Coopers go to Europe for half the year
>on the money they make from Pennsic. Some people actually believe this.
>It just ain't so.

About Pennsic XVIII I discussed the Cooper budget with Mac Cooper.  My best
guess was that they were making about $30,000, net, after deducting
operating costs.  This was based on the assumption that many of the
Cooper staff at the war were family, working for little or nothing.  He
has never opened the books, as far as I know, but he indicated that my
guess was fairly close.

This may seem like a large amount, but given the effect Pennsic has on the
rest of the business and the element of risk to the Coopers I'm really
not sure that it is large enough.  At several discussions over the past
few years we've looked at using the revenue to create an SCA theme park, 
but it has never looked very practical.  The problem is that the operator
would have to buy something like 1,000 acres, which even in rural Ohio
(it's cheaper than PA) would run about $1,000,000.  Add to this the
initial costs and it becomes clear that even if the rates were not
lowered after the move to SCA-owned facilities the revenue would be
very close to the minimum necessary to make the thing work - and you
haven't even included the necessary permanent staff.

(I'm not sure how big the current Pennsic area is, but I know its larger
than 100 acres and probably in the range of 500 acres, and it's getting
smaller all the time)
-- 

Mike Squires (mikes@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu)     812 855 3974 (w) 812 333 6564 (h)
mikes@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu          546 N Park Ridge Rd., Bloomington, IN 47408
Organization: Washington University, St. Louis
Date:         Sun, 13 Sep 92 21:45:19 CST
From:         Dan <DANW@WUVMD>
To:           NETNEWS@WUVMD
Subject:         Question about membership
Newsgroups:   rec.org.sca

Greetings Unto the Rialto,


My question is for those with more knowledge than I.  I am a national
member but I was wondering if there is a rule that I have to be a
"member" of one local group (that I am in geographically) or can I
be a member of another local group (where I like the people more).

The main reason for my asking is that the second group is in need of
national members for quota reasons.

Many thanks.

Bartholomew Landover  GDH
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: wjones@diana.cair.du.edu (WILLIAM D. JONES)
Subject: Re: consort gender
Organization: University of Denver, Denver, Colorado
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 92 19:54:58 GMT


   Greetings to All,

   I read with much interest this most recent (for me) thread on
Rialto.  To Hossein I pose one question, quite pointedly, where did 
you stand on the acceptance of the flyfot? And if we are to base our
Re-Creation on the practices of the Period do we ignore modern law
in favor of period belief, and where does exclusion of consort based
on the required mixed sex of ruling couplets place the Society in
modern civil law.  

   Desire for a strong requirement for the Periodicity (excuse me) 
of all things SCA is a honorable stance, as is the desire to see 
all who wish to be a part of our group allowed to express themselves
as they see fit.  Currently we choose rulers on the Tourney field.
Unless I am mistaken this does not reflect period practice (which
I believe centered on ancestry) 

  To those who feel there is a roll model missing for those of non-
hetrosexual persuassions I ask "Why is it not enough for the winner 
of the tourney to fall within your catagory?  Is it really exclusionary
to disallow his/her bestfriend/lover as his/her consort?  A consort can
be unacceptable for a variety of reasons, why is thier sex such an 
unusual gauge?"

  I have found that most conflicts over ideas such as these can never
be resloved to everyones liking and the winner is usually the one
with the biggest whatever.  The Society of Creative Anachronism is many '
things to many people,  one thing it is not ( as I have discovered) is a 
forum for politcal change.  Hossein arguement against the (fe)male/(fe)male
king/consort is, I feel, the most relevant to our Society.  The rights of 
homosexuals is not the basis for our group, period recreation is.


 In Service,

                    Hadrian
                          Caerthe, The Outlands 


               
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: aryk@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (A.J.S. Nusbacher)
Subject: Re: the same-sex and pentacles threads
Organization: University of Toronto -- Hart House
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 16:08:31 GMT

In article <1992Sep13.213605.16489@news.cs.brandeis.edu> tabron@binah.cc.brandeis.edu writes:

>And, good gentles, as long as injustices _are_ inflicted upon me, and as long
>as others, strong and able and with priveleges that are denied to me in the
>names of those injustices, _refuse_ not only to help me but also even to
>posit that I should be fighting on my own behalf, I will be angry.
>I _am_ angry.

I beg you pardon, but I don't think you ought to be angry until you
have directed your grievance to the Board of Directors of the SCA Inc., and
have not received satisfaction from them.

Aryk Nusbacher
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: sommerfeld@apollo.hp.com (Bill Sommerfeld)
Subject: Re: Early Music
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 20:33:53 GMT
Organization: Hewlett Packard

In article <9209091043.aa10366@mc.lcs.mit.edu> MKNETTEL@kentvm.kent.EDU ("Mary Knettel ", Genevieve) writes:

   Call the
   public radio station that plays classical music -- they might have
   an early music buff in their ranks.

For those within FM radio range of Boston, WBUR's classical music
shows often end the hour with a short bit of early music, typically
renaissance dances, motets or canzons.

If you hear something you like on the radio, you can generally call
the radio station and ask them where it was from (that's how I nabbed
the most recent addition to my collection: "Giovanni Gabrielli:
Canzonas, Sonatas, and Motes", recorded by the Taverner Consort,
Choir, and Players, on period instruments; makes a great contrast to
the Gabrielli I have which is recorded on modern brass..).

One other suggestion: check with local music schools to see if they
have any kind of early music department.  You may be able to take or
audit courses "a la carte" for relatively little money.

   I am no music historian, but have gained an appreciation for
   Early Music through listening to such recordings.  Reading the
   liner notes wouldn't be a bad idea, either.  :-)

Of course, liner notes really count as secondary sources -- two
different recordings I own have almost contradictory opinions on the
last work in Gabrielli's Canzon e Sonate (a violin trio thrown in at
the end of a collection of twenty-odd multi-choir polyphonic works)..
and I have absolutely no clue as to which one is "correct".
Interestingly enough, both of them quoted different parts of the same
primary source.

If you have any experience playing modern instruments and reading
modern musical notation, it may help a lot with early instruments
(e.g., a tenor sackbut can be picked up & played by anyone who can
play a modern trombone, though that's perhaps an extreme case).
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: KGANDEK@mitvmc.mit.EDU (Kathryn Gandek)
Subject: Foolishness in Western Court
Organization: The Internet
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 16:29:22 GMT

Quoting John >> and Hal >:
>>To those who helped me with my foolish start: (Catrin! I got Chambers! Wow!) I
>>swore (as Sir Tor) an oath of foolity to the Queen this weekend.  Much
> amusement
>>will follow.  My buffet was a bit unstandard...a fundamental change, as it
> were.
>
>And here I thought the King was just bringing you to heel. . .  Given
>one of the local popular songs, you should be glad you didn't get
>*that* buffet in the usual place.

Well, I'm curious now.  Would you care to describe this in more detail, Hal?

Catrin o'r Rhyd For           Kathryn Gandek
Barony of Carolingia          Boston area
East Kingdom                  kgandek@mitvmc.mit.edu
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: bambi@visenix.uucp (Hilda(Bambi) Smith-Beattie)
Subject: Re: Email to me
Summary: new address 
Keywords: an tir,fidonet,portland
 
Organization: /etc/organization
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1992 16:29:43 GMT
Expires: Tue, 1 Dec 1992 05:00:00 GMT

 my lords and ladies
joyful ,and exauhsting news..my lord husband has found
gainful employment in An Tir.this will first of all change
my e mail address. in future, for the next few months
all mail addressed to me must come to me trhough fido net
(hi there yoseph!!!)
the address starting as soon as i hang up from here will be
Genie@p0.f120.n109.z1.fidonet.org
this account will cease to be valid on the 10th of september 
1992.
now i would like to know if any of you out there are in the
portland area and what the sca info is for that area. also 
please if any of you are families with young school age children
i would love to open a dialogue with you as i have no one
there to help advise me about schools and neighborhoods.i am
homeschooling my little girl THIS year but that is to help the
darling get her barings...she is VERY bright but we have never
moved in her lifetime and she is REALLy freaking out.I am moving
us by myself so it will take me a while to follow my husband,
hence the long lag time.
please help me...im a little freaked out me self with the sudden-
ness of it all an a little adviice and information would sure do
a lot to make me feel more confident.
thank you for your patience.
beatriz del moro
hilda eugenia smith-beattie(bambi)
11525 hickory cluster
reston va
22090
new address
Genie@p).f120.n109.z1.fidonet.org
(oops thats right i got an owie..its Do~na Beatriz now aint it?)

From: Beth.Appleton@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Beth Appleton)
Sender: FredGate@ocitor.fidonet
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Paying the Pennsic Piper, er, Autocrat
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1992 21:38:24

 CM> out another poser for you to think on. If we pay 
 CM> the Autocrat, then what 
 CM> about the Security Chief, Chirugeon General, Trollocrat, and all their
 CM> necessary staffs? Someone is going to feel left out by not getting any
I know next to zip about running Pennsic, so the question is:
     Do these folks' jobs require massive quantities of Pre-Pennsic 
 work which substantially interferes with a mundane job?  If yes, 
 then they should also receive a salary.  If not-particulary, then 
 no.
     Also, I'd *think* that maybe just a "decent" salary for the 
 3 months preceding Pennsic should be sufficient.  Just guessing, I 
 don't see Pennsic Autocrat as a full-time job, but seasonal......
 Make that "not full-time all year, but f-t seasonal"
     This is just based on autocratting fairly small events, where 
 maybe 2-3 days of vac. took care of all the necessary stuff, and 
 none of the deputies even needed that.
     Gwenllian CfM

 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
From: jtn@nutter.cs.vt.edu (Terry Nutter)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Promoting courtesy
Date: 10 Sep 92 16:53:36 GMT
Followup-To: rec.org.sca
Organization: The Rialto

Greetings, all.  Arval wrote a wonderfully sane posting on promoting
courtesy and enforcement, the gist of which was,

>I don't think that official institutions can effectively encourage courtesy
>or discourage discourtesy.  Rewards and punishments haven't made a great
>deal of difference to date; I don't expect them to make much difference in
>the future.  The only solution I can see is to teach by example.

I believe that you are right, but you are answering Corun's proposed
_mechanism_ -- official punishment and reward -- more than the original 
question -- what SCAdians can do to promote courtesy.

Example is a powerful tool.  But I do see one other possible solution that
we might work toward: community consensus on what is and is not acceptable
behavior.

The single most compelling mechanism for enforcing conformity to a standard 
I have ever heard of is the Amish custom of shunning.  It consists of a 
(usually delimited) period of time in which the community literally refuses 
to acknowledge the person.  No one speaks to the shunned person: no one.
No one acknowledges when the shunned person speaks.  As a mechanism to get
people to act the way you want them to, it has prison beat all hollow.

I absolutely don't advocate anything at this level: it is unbelievably
traumatic.  But we go to the other extreme sometimes.  I've heard people
in the SCA excuse behaviors ranging from the merely rude to physical
assault to rape.  I've seen -- been present and watched -- someone caught
in felony embezzlement from a Barony handed an office in the same Barony
a year later.

We are _so_ tolerant of persistent, severe misbehaviors that there's not
a whole lot of reason for folks to behave well.

If we could just agree that individual variance and deficient socialization
are one thing, and persistent misbehavior is another (and this involves
agreeing on what constitutes misbehavior), and tolerate the first but not 
the second, I think we could get some mileage.

We should surely be able to apply this to lying, cheating, stealing, beating
people up, and raping.  Courtesy is a lot tougher, because we don't all
agree on what it is.  But there is a huge area where we all _do_ agree that
behavior is _not_ courteous.  If we could -- not excoriate, but simply,
calmly -- say, "This is not acceptable.  We do not accept it.  While you
do it, we will not associate with you.  You can hang around, but don't
expect a lot of playmates until you clean up your act.", we might see more
acts getting more spot removal.

Cheers,

-- Angharad/Terry
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: ewright@convex.com (Edward V. Wright)
Subject: Re: History vs. dreams (Was: consort gender)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 18:45:58 GMT
Organization: Engineering, CONVEX Computer Corp., Richardson, Tx., USA
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

Mikjal Annarbjorn Michael A. Chance writes:

>The reference to Glinda was purely alluding to the movie "The Wizard of
>Oz".  It was meant to indicate an "dream" that included flying monkeys,
>Munchkins, talking pest-control devices, lady magicians who melt in
>washwater, and electrified, red-glitter dance shoes.  

Red-glitter dance shows?  That's what you get for relying
on a secondary source!  Dorothy's slippers were *silver*,
not ruby, no matter what That Movie may have led you to
believe.

-- Nicholas van Leyden

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman)
Subject: Re: SCA 2500 C.E.
Date: Mon, 07 Sep 1992 19:59:44 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

Greetings from Arval!  

Bertram New Father drew an analogy between medieval tournaments and
American football.


> I wonder -- how far does the analogy of 
> 
>          Modern-football <==> Medieval-tourneys

Not very far, I think.  

Modern football is an entertainment for the masses; I know no evidence that
the medieval tournament as practiced in France, England, and the Lowlands,
attracted any audience from outside the nobility.

Modern football players are professionals, paid by wealthy owners to earn
them money.  In the medieval tournament, the weathy patrons took part in
the tournament, they didn't just sponsor it.  Indeed, by the late 14th
century, participation in the tournament was restricted to knights, and
eventually to knights descended from knights.  (On the other hand, there
were professionals on the tourney circuit, and it was a matter of prestige
(though not profit) for a patron to support the best tourneyers.)

The tournament was more intimately a part of noble culture, rather than
simply an entertainment.  In some manuals of chivalry, tournament combat
was considered one of the three venues for a knight to display his prowess
(after the Crusade and warfare).  A display of skill on the tourney field
could lead to recognition, position, rank, and power; when was the last
time you heard of a retired linebacker becoming CEO of Xerox?

Perhaps a more apt analogy for modern football is the Roman Circus.

===========================================================================
Arval Benicoeur                                       mittle@watson.ibm.com
From: jtn@nutter.cs.vt.edu (Terry Nutter)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Rhetoric
Date: 8 Sep 92 17:07:56 GMT
Followup-To: rec.org.sca
Organization: The Rialto

Greetings, all, from Angharad ver' Rhuawn.  You know, I was in a pretty
good mood today, until I read this:

>                    Those who fail to goose-step to the turn of the rigid 
>reproduction of life in the Old Middle-Ages are persecuted.

You know, I was kind of hoping we'd gotten rid of the Nazi cracks, at least
for a while.  Just this afternoon, I have read SCAdians on the net calling
each other bigots, homophobes, and now "goose-steppers".  How about let's
try to de-escalate the rhetoric a little?

In Service to the Society,

-- Angharad/Terry
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca