HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: joseph@ariel.its.unimelb.EDU.AU (Joseph D'Cruz)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.australian,soc.culture.asean
Subject: Re: **** Australian citizens kidnapped by Malaysian Prince ****
Date: 23 Jul 92 03:14:22 GMT
Followup-To: soc.culture.australian
Organization: University of Melbourne, Australia

In <1992Jul22.233830.6005@newsroom.utas.edu.au> u907736@postoffice.utas.edu.au (Edmund Chia) writes:
}In article <1992Jul22.045043.14744@ntuix.ntu.ac.sg>, eoahmad@ntuix.ntu.ac.sg (Othman Ahmad) writes:
} In article <2774@ariel.its.unimelb.EDU.AU> stong@ariel.its.unimelb.EDU.AU (Simon Tong) writes:
} : Two Australian citizens, both aged under 10, have been kidnapped
} : by their father, who happens to be a Malaysian Prince.  The natural
} : parents are divorced and the mother has sole custody.  The Australian 
} 
} Who gave the custody? Malaysia or Australian government?
	The Aust courts awarded custody to the mother.  Unfortunately she gave
up Islam, and so the Islamic Courts in Malaysia recently awarded custody to
the father.  Therefore the mother has custody in Australia and the father in
Malaysia.  However, what the father did, by taking the children away while on
a visit, amounts to kidnapping, which is a criminal offence irrespective of
his rights under Malaysian law.. Therefore the Aust Govt could well apply for
his extradition on that criminal charge.  Should be interesting.

[Deleted]
} : Shouldn't the Government be doing more for two children who are taken
} : away from the mother against their will ???
} 
} Is it really? Or is it the same as the Nadra's case?

(Stuff deleted)


} : d) What is the Islamic law's attitude on female circumcision ?
} Islam does not require circumcision as a condition
} to be a Muslim. Only the above statement. Circumcison is practised for 
} health reasons. This practice is carried over from Judaism. My daughter was
} circumcised. At first I was worried after reading all the horror stories but
} when I take a closer look it is nothing more that the remover an outer skin
} of something there.
} 	My wife is also circumcised. You know how I feel.
>--
} Othman bin Ahmad, School of EEE,
} Nanyang Technological University, Singapore 2263.
} Internet Email: eoahmad@ntuix.ntu.ac.sg
} Bitnet Email: eoahmad@ntuvax.bitnet


Warning: this is going to look like a massive flame.  Apologies, but it has to
be said. 
	Oh, good one.  The 'nothing more than the removal of an outer skin'
you refer to is actually the removal of the *clitoris*.  That's why female
circumcision is referred to as a 'clitorectomy'.  The clitoris is the part of
the female sexual organs responsible for almost all sensual pleasure women
experience during intercourse.  What you have done is to deny your daughter
the ability to experience pleasure during sexual intercourse.

>There was an article in an Australian paper(The Age - I think), which claimed 
>that female circumcision was meant to deny sexual pleasure to the female And
>infer that this was to prevent adultery. I do not know enough about this to 
>comment but perhaps Othman could respond to this. I am curious.

>Edmund

Perhaps Othman could.

Joseph
Newsgroups: soc.culture.australian
From: bpeal@eng.clemson.edu (brian (malibu) peal)
Subject: Immigration 2
Summary: I forgot to add in my plea for adoption, that I have 10 years experience in PC's and 6 years experience as a Computer Consultant.  I have worked in the U.S. Navy five of those years, and I now own my own small consultant business.  I am experienced on almost all of the programs or applications used in PC's.  I help small business convert from manual record systems to various computerized systems (such as word processing, spreadsheets, databases, networks, or communications.)
Reply-To: bpeal@eng.clemson.edu
Organization: College of Engineering, Clemson Univ.
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1992 20:19:22 GMT

					Malibu S. Peal
					bpeal@eng.clemson.edu

Keywords:
From: smcneil@metro (Shannon McNeil)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.australian
Subject: Re: **** Australian citizens kidnapped by Malaysian Prince ****
Date: 27 Jul 92 02:22:41 GMT
Organization: Sydney University Computing Service, Sydney, NSW, Australia

From article <1992Jul24.093001.22614@ntuix.ntu.ac.sg>, by eoahmad@ntuix.ntu.ac.sg (Othman Ahmad):
> In article <2797@ariel.its.unimelb.EDU.AU> stong@ariel.its.unimelb.EDU.AU (Simon Tong) writes:
> 
> They are already in Malaysia, safe and happy.

Oh - they told you this personally?
> 
> : the children are Aust. citizens living in Australia and the natural father
> : has agreed to the Aust. court's decision.
> How could you say that. If he had agreed, he would not have taken the children
> out of Australia, would he? What logic you use. 
> 	What proff have you got that they are indeed Australian citizens, when
> their father may not be. Does Australian immigration law provides automatic
> citizenship to children whose father is not a citizen? A lot of countries
> do not, even when their mother are citizen.

In Australia, women are treated as humans, equal to men.

> Othman bin Ahmad, School of EEE,
> Nanyang Technological University, Singapore 2263.
> Internet Email: eoahmad@ntuix.ntu.ac.sg
> Bitnet Email: eoahmad@ntuvax.bitnet
> 

Shannon
Xref: sparky soc.culture.australian:3730 soc.culture.asean:5101
From: ytay@aardvark.ucs.uoknor.edu (AUS:TAY,YIAN)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.australian,soc.culture.asean
Subject: Re: Loving Malaysian Prince:New Developments
Date: 27 Jul 92 14:58:00 GMT
Organization: University of Oklahoma - University Computing Services
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41


In article <1992Jul27.113752.1272@ntuix.ntu.ac.sg>, eoahmad@ntuix.ntu.ac.sg (Othman Ahmad) writes...
>News Straits Times, Singapore(Page 2):
> 
>The above do not tell the WHOLE STORY/TRUTH. What do you expect from Chinese
>Journalists/editors.

Yes, on the whole, what can you expect from Chinese??  The lying, cheating,
idiotic, cunning,.......  (if you like, Othman, just add on to the list)


Othman - the only proclaimed honest person on earth. I tell nothing but
the truth, trust me.


> 
>Berita Harian, Singapore(Page 2):
>Almost the same as the above except:
>Picture of Raja Kamrul Baharin with a document not clear on the Newspaper,
>with description translated like:
> 
>SHOW EVIDENCE: Raja Baharin showed photostatic copies of birth certificates of
>his 2 children who were born in Kuala Trengganu.
> 
>TUNJUK BUKTI: Raja Baharin menunjukkan salina fotosta sijil kelahiran kedua-dua
>anaknya yang dilahirkan di Kuala Lumpur - Gambar Bernama
> 
> 
>--
>Othman bin Ahmad, School of EEE,
>Nanyang Technological University, Singapore 2263.
>Internet Email: eoahmad@ntuix.ntu.ac.sg
>Bitnet Email: eoahmad@ntuvax.bitnet
> 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.australian,soc.culture.asean
From: steve@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au (Steve Balogh (+61 3 565 4747))
Subject: Re: **** Australian citizens kidnapped by Malaysian Prince ****
Organization: Monash University, Melbourne, AUSTRALIA
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 06:42:34 GMT

In article <1992Jul26.033852.16997@ntuix.ntu.ac.sg> eoahmad@ntuix.ntu.ac.sg (Othman Ahmad) writes:
>
>How could I? After being told to shut up. I had actually prepared another
>article about my mother's case which is similar to NADRA and the children's
>cases but I have lost it because I sent it in reply to a mail query.
>	Could that guy Chris Syed post that message here?
>
>I do not want to waste time on fools.
                  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Yeah Right! Point taken. Found your lost letter yet? Do you know how to use
your newsreader yet?    :-)
From: tmarvan@sdcc3.ucsd.edu (Thomas Marvan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.australian
Subject: Re: Auto Importation into Australia
Date: 22 Jul 92 01:05:49 GMT
Organization: University of California, San Diego

In article <l6mf07INNrvk@exodus.Eng.Sun.COM> reno@darlo.Eng.Sun.COM (Reno Marioni) writes:
>Hello,
>I will be a new migrant to Australia this year (I used to live
>there for quite some time . I'm a "seppo"-yank with permanent residency).  
>Does anyone have any experiences bringing a vehicle from the US 
>to Australia?


Don't do it - you're mad.


>Any help or personal experiences like "don't do it-you're mad"
>are quite welcome.
>
>cheers,
>Reno 



Tom Marvan.
From: espbl@warwick.ac.uk (FLASH)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.australian
Subject: Looking for friends from Penang, Malaysia
Date: 25 Jul 92 00:54:01 GMT
Organization: Computing Services, Warwick University, UK

Hello netters,

	I am looking for two people who currently study in University of 
Melbourne and University of Monash, Melbourne, Australia. Both of them are 
from Penang, Malaysia.

  	      Name: Mr Swee Keong KANG
	University: University of Melbourne
	    Course: Medicine
	      Year: 2nd year

	~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

	      Name: Miss Meow Keng KHOR
	University: University of Monash
	    Course: Bachelor of Accounting
	      Year: Final year


	Would appreciate if anybody who know them can send an email to me!

Thanks in advance


Best Regards,

S P Kang  (email: espbl@csv.warwick.ac.uk)
Department of Engineering
Warwick Manufacturing Group
University of Warwick
Coventry CV4 7AL
England, United Kingdom
Newsgroups: soc.culture.australian,soc.culture.asean
From: tarun@psyclops.psyc.queensu.ca (Tarun Kripalani)
Subject: Re: Loving Malaysian Prince:New Developments 
Organization: Dept. Of Psychology,  Queen's University,  Kingston
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 17:05:49 GMT

In article <1992Jul27.113752.1272@ntuix.ntu.ac.sg>, eoahmad@ntuix.ntu.ac.sg (Othman Ahmad) writes:
|> News Straits Times, Singapore(Page 2):
|> 1. The Malasian Prince called Raja Kamarul held a press conference at a hotel
|> in Kuala Lumpur, with his children Raja Baharuddin(9) and Raja Shahiran(7)m
|> contradicting news that they are in Indonesia.
|> 
|> 2. Raja Kamarul said that his former wife herself left with the children for
|> Australia in late 1986 on the pretext of visiting her sick grandmother(exact
|> words from NST)
|> 	"I was very reluctant to let them go but I finally agreed and gave in
|> after much pressure from her and my family", he said.
|> 
|> (read carefully the words "my family")
|> 
|> 3. A seniour Malaysian official in the Law Ministry said that under the
|> Syariah law, Mrs Gillespie forfeited her rights over the children when she
|> baptised them and went against the vows she had taken when she became a 
|> Muslim on marrying the prince.
|> 
|> 4. Earlier in Sydney, the chief judge of Australia's Family court, Mr Justice
|> Alastair Nicholson, called for tougher government action in cases of
|> international child abduction.
|> IMHO: ABSOLUTELY
|> 
|> The above do not tell the WHOLE STORY/TRUTH. What do you expect from Chinese
|> Journalists/editors.
   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
|>  [other stuff deleted]
|> --
|> Othman bin Ahmad, School of EEE,
|> Nanyang Technological University, Singapore 2263.
|> Internet Email: eoahmad@ntuix.ntu.ac.sg
|> Bitnet Email: eoahmad@ntuvax.bitnet
|> 

What kind of inflammatory racial prejudice is this? Bias exists in all
shapes and forms and to only point out one point of view is biased. The 
reporter can only report what he/she believes and presents it. I am sure
that you could get another point of view from another reporter that would
be to your liking and point of view. Making references to the race of
the people presenting the story, in this case, does not make a difference to the
facts. 
-- 

Tarun Kripalani (of Wounded Knee and now Wounded Shoulder)
e-mail:   tarun@psyclops.psyc.queensu.ca
Dept. of Psychology, Queen's University,
Kingston, Ontario.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.australian
From: darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Fred Rice)
Subject: Re: Loving Malaysian Prince: New Developments
Organization: Monash University, Melb., Australia.
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 11:34:28 GMT

In <1992Jul29.235314.27485@newshost.anu.edu.au> rxo868@huxley.anu.edu.au (Remo Ostini) writes:

>There are still a few people posting articles saying that the father stole
>the children from Australia and in so doing, broke the law.  He certainly
>broke the law but when he took the children he took them back.  They were
>originally taken from their home by the mother on the pretext of visiting a
>sick relative.

>Perhaps my previous post (both of it!) didn't reach some people, but my
>sympathy for the mother was greatly reduced when I found out that she was
>the original culprit.  The father has spent the last six years trying to work
>through the Australian courts and the mother's decision to have the children
>baptised as Christians was just the last straw as far as he was concerned.

>The mother was married in Malaysia, to a Malaysian, in a Muslim ceremony, and
>had children there.  She doesn't have the right to then skip the country, take
>the children and remarry as if it's no business of the father.

>I agree though that the bottom line is that it is awful to do this to the
>kids.  But please don't go on saying the father took the children without
>acknowledging that the mother took them first and the father's actions were
>his way of getting them back.

Remo, thanks for your posting!

Now, why are most people here so silent on this?  

Why are so many Aussies so eager to heap abuse on the Malaysian prince, 
but when we find out that the Australian woman is the original culprit, 
we are so silent?  

Is this evidence of Australian racism / ethnocentrism? 

Does this show our prejudice against other cultures? 

 Fred Rice
 darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au   

==================================================================
=   A poor man said to a rich one:				 =
=     `All my money goes on food.'				 = 
=     `Now that's your trouble,' said the rich man. `I only 	 =
=   spend five per cent of _my_ money on food.'			 = 
=                                        			 =
=                -- Idries Shah, _The Magic Monastery_		 =
==================================================================
Newsgroups: soc.culture.australian,soc.culture.asean
From: ystan@fawlty10.eng.monash.edu.au (Mr YS Tan)
Subject: Re: Loving Malaysian Prince:New Developments 
Organization: Monash University, Melb., Australia.
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 01:46:04 GMT

eoahmad@ntuix.ntu.ac.sg (Othman Ahmad) writes:

>News Straits Times, Singapore(Page 2):
>1. The Malasian Prince called Raja Kamarul held a press conference at a hotel
>in Kuala Lumpur, with his children Raja Baharuddin(9) and Raja Shahiran(7)m
>contradicting news that they are in Indonesia.

>2. Raja Kamarul said that his former wife herself left with the children for
>Australia in late 1986 on the pretext of visiting her sick grandmother(exact
>words from NST)
>	"I was very reluctant to let them go but I finally agreed and gave in
>after much pressure from her and my family", he said.

>(read carefully the words "my family")

>3. A seniour Malaysian official in the Law Ministry said that under the
>Syariah law, Mrs Gillespie forfeited her rights over the children when she
>baptised them and went against the vows she had taken when she became a 
>Muslim on marrying the prince.

>4. Earlier in Sydney, the chief judge of Australia's Family court, Mr Justice
>Alastair Nicholson, called for tougher government action in cases of
>international child abduction.
>IMHO: ABSOLUTELY
       ^^^^^^^^^^
	What absolutely ?
	
>The above do not tell the WHOLE STORY/TRUTH. What do you expect from Chinese
					      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Journalists/editors.			
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
	
	Encik Othman, did you developed such attitude from living in
Singapore ? 
	
>Berita Harian, Singapore(Page 2):
>Almost the same as the above except:
>Picture of Raja Kamrul Baharin with a document not clear on the Newspaper,
>with description translated like:

>SHOW EVIDENCE: Raja Baharin showed photostatic copies of birth certificates of
>his 2 children who were born in Kuala Trengganu.

	MAYBE : that chap bought up some Berita Harian reporters, made up
some false photocopies and showed them to the public.

>TUNJUK BUKTI: Raja Baharin menunjukkan salina fotosta sijil kelahiran kedua-dua
					^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>anaknya yang dilahirkan di Kuala Lumpur - Gambar Bernama

	Yeoh ! Encik Othman, maksud kau "salinan fotostat"-ke ?
       {Yeoh ! Mr.   Othman, do you mean "salinan fotostat"   ?}	

	MUNGKIN : "chap" itu sudah "membelikan" beberapa "repoter" (that's
new Bahasa Malaysia), dan menunjukkan salinan palsu kepada "public".
< please excuse my B.M. >

> 
>--
>Othman bin Ahmad, School of EEE,
>Nanyang Technological University, Singapore 2263.
>Internet Email: eoahmad@ntuix.ntu.ac.sg
>Bitnet Email: eoahmad@ntuvax.bitnet

Xref: sparky soc.culture.australian:3699 soc.culture.asean:5060
From: thos@suite.sw.oz.au (Thomas Cohen)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.australian,soc.culture.asean
Subject: Re: **** Australian citizens kidnapped by Malaysian Prince ****
Date: 27 Jul 92 01:04:46 GMT
Organization: Softway Pty Ltd


Here is an example of Othman bin Ahmad's wit and repartee.
Also notice his crushing grasp of logic and argument.


In <1992Jul26.033458.16916@ntuix.ntu.ac.sg> eoahmad@ntuix.ntu.ac.sg (Othman Ahmad) writes:

>In article <1992Jul26.001846.23947@newshost.anu.edu.au> kcj@vulcan.anu.edu.au (Kate Juliff) writes:

>: In article <1992Jul25.155607.26285@ntuix.ntu.ac.sg> eoahmad@ntuix.ntu.ac.sg (Othman Ahmad) writes:
>: >In article <1992Jul25.174053.1@cc.curtin.edu.au> rswiftrw@cc.curtin.edu.au (Rod Swift) writes:
>: >
>: >: 
>: >: Please shut up.  You are making an absolute fool of yourself in a multinational
>: >I am tired arguing with you even in written medium. Your last phrase sums it
>: >all.

>>It is a pity you are unable to answer Rod's points. I realise that
>>it is difficult for you, as Rod is correct. The  kidnapped
>>children are Australian citizens. You may not like this fact, but it
>>is a fact nonetheless. If the prince has taken the children
>>out of the country, as appears almost certain, he has broken 
>>Australian laws. He has certainly defied an Australian court order
>>by not returning them to their custodial parents.

>>It is well accepted that people are obliged to obey the laws of the
>>country they are in, and not the laws of some other country. 

>>The prince has also shown no regard for his children's emotional well-being.
>>The mother, on the other hand, encouraged access and went through
>>the proper processes. It seems that the prince was happy to
>>take up the rights granted to him by an Australian court, but
>is not prepared to act in good faith.


>You too! You expect people to shut up but blabbers nonsense yourself. From my
>experience, it is useless to talk to fools.


You see? Kate Juliff posts a reasonable, thought out response, and
Othman accuses her of blabbering nonsensem, and then indirectly calls
her a fool. I thought Islam honoured learning? Othman certainly doesn't
seem to. (he certainly doensn't show any).

I'm not bothering with this guy anymore. He's a waste of bandwidth.

regards,
-- 
thos cohen  				       |Softway Pty Ltd
 The best way to make a Japanese engineer wince|ACSnet:         thos@softway.oz
 is (when talking about an NSX) to say slowly  |UUCP: ...!uunet!softway.oz!thos
 'but its _not a Ferrari_ is it?' R.Bulgin, CAR|Internet:    thos@softway.oz.au
From: michael@vk2bea.UUCP (Michael G. Katzmann)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.australian
Subject: Re: Aussies and the Olypmics
Date: 30 Jul 92 15:52:08 GMT
Reply-To: michael@vk2bea.UUCP (Michael G. Katzmann)
Organization: Broadcast Sports Technology, Crofton. Maryland.

In article <1992Jul28.142900.4037@inel.gov> @gemstone.inel.gov writes:
>
> I'm sure that us Aussies that only have access to US TV and radio
>would love to read about how the Australian team is doing in the
>Olympics. 

Yes, lets hear whats happening!  All we get here is the 'Dream Team'
crap. Even if the US looses to someone they rarely tell us to whom
they lost!
Even NPR (not known for sports broadcasting, but for reliability at
least has done a dismal job of reporting the games)
>
> BTW, just to add a thought to the pay-TV proposals - you can watch
>the Olympics here in the States on 2 special cable channels - and
>at a bargain price of a little less than $9/day.
>

Actually its on 3 cable channels (red, white and blue (yuch)) and its
$9 a day ONLY if you subscribe for the whole period (total about $120).
The single day rate is around $30.
(apparantly they have identified BOTH subscribers)  (i.e. its projected
to loose another $100 million for NBC, who hoped to recoup some of the $450
million they payed for the US broadcast rights.)



-- 
Michael Katzmann	  >	Broadcast Sports Technology Inc.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~	 <	Crofton, Maryland. U.S.A
Amateur Radio Stations:   >
NV3Z / VK2BEA / G4NYV	 <	opel!vk2bea!michael@uunet.uu.net
Newsgroups: soc.culture.australian,soc.culture.asean
From: eoahmad@ntuix.ntu.ac.sg (Othman Ahmad)
Subject: Re: Loving Malaysian Prince:New Developments
Organization: Nanyang Technological University - Singapore
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 05:39:55 GMT

In article <27JUL199208375395@aardvark.ucs.uoknor.edu> ytay@aardvark.ucs.uoknor.edu (AUS:TAY,YIAN) writes:

:                           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
: >Journalists/editors.
:  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
: 
: And what is this supposed to mean???  Trying to bring the Chinese into
: your idiotic argument too?  Raja Kamarul might be a prince to you
Aren't you a chinese? How could a journalist/editors make such basic mistake
as not including a picture of the most important evidence?
	Obviously you are biased. The author was a Muslim. I am not sure who
the editors/censorers are, but Singapore is made up of 75% chinese, governed by
chinese, highly government controlled media.

: but he is a nobody to me.
That was what I was trying to tell everyone including you but you do not
believe me do you? Now do you admit that he is just an ordinary Malaysian 
Citizen or do you want to shift your stand again?

: 
: Since you are so smart, why don't you tell us the truth?? But why should
: I believe that what you said is the whole story/truth?  You could jolly 
: well fabricate your story to your advantage too....
: 
Same to you.
--
Othman bin Ahmad, School of EEE,
Nanyang Technological University, Singapore 2263.
Internet Email: eoahmad@ntuix.ntu.ac.sg
Bitnet Email: eoahmad@ntuvax.bitnet

Newsgroups: soc.culture.australian,soc.culture.asean
From: studer@physics.su.OZ.AU (Andrew Studer)
Subject: Re: ANTI Chinese statement? (was: Loving Malaysian Prince:New Developments )
Organization: School of Physics, University of Sydney, Australia
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 10:54:26 GMT

In article <1992Jul28.130325.6089@csc.canterbury.ac.nz> chuah@elec.canterbury.ac.nz (DanC) writes:
>In article <1992Jul27.113752.1272@ntuix.ntu.ac.sg> eoahmad@ntuix.ntu.ac.sg (Othman Ahmad) writes:
>
>Cheers for the news.
>
>>The above do not tell the WHOLE STORY/TRUTH. What do you expect from Chinese
>>Journalists/editors.
>
>I resent this statement though.  Are you saying that the Chinese are poor
>journalist/editors?
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>Dennis Chuah, BE (Elec)    | "One Country,  | Supporting the Malaysian


Dennis, I wouldn't worry about it too much. Right now, there's a bunch
of people walking down the corridors of Nanyang Technical University,
heading towards a fellow crouched over a terminal typing furiously,
and the question has to be asked: will he get his foot out of his mouth
in time to defend himself......

Andrew Studer... physics.su.oz.au
Xref: sparky soc.culture.australian:3738 soc.culture.asean:5113