From: madhaus@netcom.com (Maddi Hausmann)
Subject: Re: THE MIND OF THE BIBLE BELIEVER
Organization: Society for Putting Things on Top of Other Things
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 21:41:54 GMT

mlee@post.RoyalRoads.ca (Malcolm Lee) writes: >
madhaus@netcom.com (Maddi Hausmann) writes: >|>
Malcolm: >|> >

>|> But here you set up a false dichotomy.  You claim because you were a
>|> non-believer and were not happy that is was your non-belief that made
>|> you unhappy.  I do not deny your feeling that something was missing,
>|> as I myself have felt this and so have many other people I have
>|> known.  What I object to is your assertion that only Christianity
>|> could have changed this.  You see, I am not longer feeling that
>|> something is missing, yet I am still not a believer.
>|> 
>The road to becoming a Christian was not an easy one for me.  For many years, I
>was openly opposed to the Christian faith and had sought other ways to find 
>fulfillment.  Nothing did the trick for me.  Only salvation through Jesus Christ
>has been able to fill the great gap that was in my life.

But since you do not tell us what you tried, we do not know that you
tried all possible routes.  For example, you do not discuss whether
you studied philosophy, or whether you looked into any other
religions (besides Christianity).  Furthermore, you mention that
you were "firmly opposed to the Christian faith" in the past but
do not explain why.  Were you brought up as a Christian?  If so,
consider the possibility that these early childhood teachings
are now resonating within you and for this reason you feel the
rightness of the teachings.  Thus, the teachings are not necessarily
right or wrong, but have an emotional strength because you associate
it with childhood, when all the difficult questions were not an
issue (e.g. being fed, being cared for, etc).

Many people rebel against their religious upbringing and return to
an even stronger version of it for this reason (e.g. Methodists
becoming Evangelicals, or Reform Jews becoming Orthodox or Lubavicher).

>|> >I'm not a Psych major and I can't fully explain it.  It was not until I came to
>|> >know my Lord and Saviour that I gained a sense of purpose and fulfillment in my
>|> >life.  I had friends around me but it was not the same as having the family of
>|> >Christ around me.
>|> 
>|> But here I have given you some suggestions on how to explain it.
>|> Don't just sit there and say you can't explain it; do some reading
>|> and learn to understand it.  It won't be easy, but then again,
>|> using your mind rarely is.
>|>
>I had already used my mind.  I am not a high school dropout, but a university 
>graduate in Comp Sci.  God gave me the gift of an analytical mind but even this
>mind could not answer the questions that plagued me.  Who am I?  What is my
>purpose on this earth?  People that I've grown up with had passed away recently.
>And it didn't matter all the good things they did in their lives, they died all
>the same.  To what purpose?  I read books and asked other people but it seemed 
>they were too caught up in their own interests.  Nobody wants to talk about
>death, after all.  It's a subject that usually drags everyone down.

Ah, so the crux of the matter is that your friends were too tied up
in their own interests.  This sounds to me that you were seeking a
community and did not find it among your previous group because they
were too "caught up in their own interests."  Abraham Maslow, the
famous sociologist, states that the need for community is so strong
that without it most people will choose to die.  You found the 
community in the Church, that's all.  The people there showed an
interest in you, and you needed a community to accept you.

The DANGER in this is that these people took you in because it is
their directive to "bring new sheep into the fold."  Inotherwords,
they did it not because you are a special and unique person with
qualities to benefit the group, but because the group is out to
take in anyone who shows an interest.  This is the same technique
that Reverend Moon's Unification Church uses on young people, and
it is called "love-bombing."

The DANGER in this is should you have any doubts in the premises
of the group, they will drop you lot a hot brick.  (Not immediately,
but if your doubts persist after heavy prayer sessions.)  This
is the danger to your mental health, because the community will
only allow you to express the community line, and not your own
true beliefs.  Back to Maslow, the need for self-expression is
not as important as the need for community, so you may not come
to that point quickly, if at all.  But Maslow's Hierarchy of
Needs has its pinnacle in self-actualization, and the Christian
Evangelical lifestyle and belief is in total opposition to this.
Therefore, you cannot be a psychologically healthy individual,
because you are caught down in rungs two and three and never make
it to the top.

>|> I did not say you worshipped a religion.  I said you relied on something
>|> external to yourself to validate your self-worth and that this is very
>|> harmful to your mental health.  In this case the external validation
>|> rests with Jesus, not with you.  The church or the pastor do not
>|> matter as much because you can find another.  But if you were to stop
>|> going to church and Bible study and the Christian fellowshop, you
>|> would find your doubts re-emerging.  Please read the Cohen book.
>|> 
>I rely on God's strength.  The evidence of His strength and devotion to me comes
>from the family of God that He has provided around me and the wisdom gained through His Spirit.  Are you saying that it is wrong for me to rely on my family and that it is more mentally healthy that I be an orphan alone in this world?  I
>don't mean to be insulting.  That is not my intention.  Please read on.

Read what I said above about the need for community.  It is dangerous
to not rely on others.  But my objection here is that your new
community may demand you sever ties with non-believers.  If your
family doesn't believe, you are either to work on bringing them into
the fold, or renounce them.  I believe renouncing one's family is
very unhealthy, unless you were unfortunate enough to grow up with
abusive parents.

Do you think it is mentally healthy to rely of "God's" strength if
there is no such thing?  What would you think of a 30-year-old who
still believed in Santa and the Tooth Fairy?  You and I know these
don't exist, that is acceptable for young children to believe this,
but not for adults.  Atheists believe it is just as unhealthy to
believe in an unverifiable being such as your "God."

You say you have felt the "strength of God."  What if you felt your
own sense of self and simply misdefined it?  Again, I ask you read
Jung and Joseph Campbell, as they have a lot to say about the human
mind and the search for mysticism.

>|> I find fault with a system that leads to:
>|>    - Sexual dysfuction due to a body/mind duality
>|>    - Sexual repression leading to high rates of child abuse
>|>    - A refusal to use one's gifts as given, in this case your mind
>|>
>God invented sex.  God created man and woman and they were meant to have sex to
>procreate the race.  There was nothing dirty about sex until Satan perverted it into a form of abuse.  Sex was intended by God to be beautiful and it is between
>lovers.  IMHO, it is people and some Christians who have wrongly interpretted
>sexual immorality as being any type of sex at all, or even thinking of sex.  Face
>it (I have), the sexual drive is part of our human makeup.  God has taught me to
>accept this part as being a part of myself and He has taught me how to control it.
>Not eliminate it.  I can't.  I know that.  But I can control it and I have for
>these 31 years of my life.  I am not ashamed of it.
>   Use of one's gifts as given . . . yes, as given by God.

I believe you have ignored the issue I brought up here.  Perhaps I
did not explain myself clearly enough.  Christianity has led to
a lot of sexual repression and abuse.  There is less of this among
Jews and Hindus, because their religions do not have a "Satan" making
sex dirty.  That is my objection: we are sexual beings, and the
Christian teachings puts the believer at odds with his or her own
body.  You speak of having to "control" your sexuality.  This is another
double bind.

As to using your gifts, your statement "yes, as given by God" says
that you will not use them for your, or society's best uses, but
as you are instructed by the Church.  This, once again, is dangerous,
because you are denying your abilities in any way you are 
instructed to. 

>|> >God loves, Man kills.
>|> 
>|> This is another dangerous poison in the Xian ethos.  All the evil
>|> is assigned to Man, inotherwords, to you as a member of the family
>|> of Man.  All the good is external; it is assigned to God and
>|> Christ.  You are scum, they are holy.  They can save you, you
>|> cannot save yourself.  This is dangerous because it sets you up
>|> as self-hating and needing spiritual cleansing from Christ, or
>|> actually, from a representative such as the church or your study
>|> group.  Self-loathing leads to psychological problems.
>|> 
>|> You do not have to be a Psych major to learn about Psychology.
>|> I strongly suggest you look into it.  
>|> 
>I don't hate myself.  In fact, God has taught me how I can love myself.  After
>all, He loved me first before I even knew Him.  By the example of His Son's 
>sacrificial death, I have learned how to give of myself such that I could love 
>another person.  And we have been together for 3.5 years and intend to marry in
>the near future.  None of this would have been possible were it not for God's
>love.  If there was any self-loathing that I had, it was during the 25 years
>that I was a non-believer.  And I agree with you, this self-loathing was not
>healthy.

I don't think you understood what I said.  You said you don't hate
yourself, but my contention is that these teachings set up an
unconscious hatred.  You are part of Man, correct?  And you
say Man kills?  Then you are part of that, and thus introduce
self-hatred, and this is unhealthy.  The Cohen book explains
clearly how the Christian teachings set up self-loathing.  It
is mostly unconcious, but it is there.

How do you know you could not love another person without "God's
love?"  Your claim is untestable.  I love another person and am
not aware of this.  Are you saying I do not love this person?

>From what you've read so far, Maddi, do you conclude that I am a happier person
>now than when I was before?  Has Christianity benefitted me, do you think?  Or
>am I better off never having known God at all?

I do believe Christianity has benefitted you in the short run.  I
do not know what the long run will bring.  I feel that Christianity
as a social institution has done a lot of harm, both in the past and
in the present.  I mentioned some of the problems of Christianity,
in particular, sexual repression, intolerance, refusal to accept
other belief systems in a multi-cultural society, which leads to
social polarity.  Christianity has brought the dumbing-down of
our science curriculum, which has hurt our country's ability to
compete on a global level.  It has brought rampant overpopulation
because many Christian groups oppose birth control.  It has 
destroyed the ability of many adherents to think for themselves.
It has destroyed families in some congregations, where adherents
are told to reject non-believers.

Christianity has also brought some good.  However, I firmly believe
that the good it has brought is also provided by other religions
and philosophies.  Therefore, one the whole, I believe Christianity
causes more harm, and should be supplanted by a healthier system.

Regards, Maddi

-- 
Maddi Hausmann                       |  The Truth is still The Truth, forsooth 
madhaus@netcom.com                   |  Even if believing It you refuse
Centigram Communications Corp        |  Complete disproof's uncouth and moot
San Jose California  408/428-3553    |  A Fundie's brain is dead.

Newsgroups: alt.atheism,talk.religion.misc