From: julie@cucbs.chem.columbia.edu (Julie Wright)
Subject: Re: Wannabees (was Re: Attraction -> Acquiantance or vice versa?)
Organization: The Cultural Elite
	<1992Dec10.192418.7360@cbnewsk.cb.att.com>
	<JULIE.92Dec10175618@cucbs.chem.columbia.edu>
	<1992Dec11.153911.269@cbnewsk.cb.att.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 22:38:57 GMT

krw@cbnewsk.cb.att.com (keith.r.smith) writes:

>Julia,

Nope, I'm Julie.  (Even on my birth certificate.)  Julia Smith also
followed up somewhere, so it's not surprising you're confused :) .

>Having been in the wannabee situation once or twice, let me say this:

>[shortened: when he wants to go out with her and she doesn't think of 
>  him as a prospect, it pisses him off when she 
>  a) complains about her boyfriend or lack thereof
>  b) he "is the one who is always getting the call to do those things
>     that "Romeo" should be doing for her"
>  c) he feels like he's picking up the slack for another guy's shortcomings]

>If that sounds resentful, then so be it.  Just so we
>are clear on this, I never said that I could not be friends with someone
>who did not have the same attraction for me as I for her.....I just said
>that I would not be spending loads of time with her.  

I'm confused now about how you're defining "friends", so I'll just let 
it lie for now.

>If she wants to cry
>the "I ain't got me no man" blues, she can take that action to her
>girlfriends.  

If you're friends and she knows you want to go out with her and still
complains about not having a boyfriend to you, knowing it causes you pain
to hear her say that, she's being insensitive and not a particularly good
friend to you.  However, I've had several male single friends whom I griped
to about being single and they griped to me too, and we got a lot out of
sharing things and discussing the things we had in common and the things
we saw differently... gee, sort of like this newsgroup! ... without anyone
feeling any pain.  (I know we're talking about "wannabes" here, but I just
wanted to point out that this bitching _can_ be fine between men and women
friends.)  

>If her man is treating her badly, then she has to work that
>out with him.  

That's very true, but friends often discuss this sort of thing and ask
each other's advice.  If she doesn't want to hear your opinion, you
certainly should wonder whether she's really treating you like a friend.
(Well, within limits; sometimes people just need someone to pour their
thoughts out to.)  

>If she wants to call somebody at 2am because she is in some
>sort of jam, then she has parents, girlfriends and/or an SO that she can call
>first.  

This is the sort of thing I don't get.  To me, you're either saying she's
taking advantage of your emotional state -- that is, asking more than
she'd ask of her girlfriends -- in which case _she's_ not much of a friend,
or you're saying that it's impossible and inappropriate for you and her
to be as close friends as she is with her girlfriends, which I don't agree
with at all, personally.  Why should she always call her girlfriends before
she calls you, if you're friends?    

>If that sounds manipulative, or immature, then so be it.  

The part that sounded manipulative to me was what I read as the idea
that she was doing something wrong to be friends with you and yet not
want to go out with you, and you were resenting her for it while claiming
to be a true friend.  If you want to say "I can't be friends with someone
I'm attracted to", I'd think that's sad, and maybe silly and immature in
some cases, but at least it isn't manipulative.

>A person
>has to look out for his own interests in a relationship, short of
>"stickin' it" to the other person(s) involved.  I have my own life, thank you!

But maybe part of the problem is that you're not interested in the sort
of friendships they have with people?  If you're sticking around in a friend
role strictly because you hope they'll suddenly go out with you, no wonder
it chafes.  Don't you ever get anything out of the friendship itself, though?

>I also believe that there are some subjects that a woman should best discuss
>with her girlfriends, or maybe with a man who definately _does not_ have
>eyes for her, rather than with a man who plainly _does_ have eyes for her.

OK, I do agree with you here.  Friends generally should try to avoid talking
about things that needlessly cause pain to you.  Did you try asking them
why they were doing that?  Do you think they were just being dense and
thoughtless and should have known better, or do you think they just didn't
care, or did you not want them to know you wanted to go out with them?  
Did you try telling them it made you feel bad and you'd appreciate
it if they'd cut it out?  (Not that I think that you should necessarily
have had to do this.)  (I also hope you try not to be too oversensitive 
to this -- slips of the tongue can happen sometimes.  Of course, I've also
complain when my male friends moan "all the good ones are taken" and the
like in front of me, even though I assume it's not a personal slight!)

>It has been my experience (mind you, it could just be that
>I have been "just friends" with the "wrong" women) is that when a man has
>been around a given woman long enough as a "just friend", then she just 
>sort of "adopts" him as a "surrogate girlfriend", and will discuss with
>him any subject that she might discuss with her girlfriends.  It is as
>if she "forgets" that you are a man. As for me, I ain't "down" with that.

I really have trouble following your descriptions of male/female 
friendships because I can't tell when your objections stem from her
being insensitive to your romantic/sexual feelings towards her, and when
they come from the fact that you're male and she's female.  Again, if
she's trampling over your feelings, something's gotta change.  But if
you mind because you feel like she's "forgetting you're a man" because
she discusses any subject she might with a girlfriend, I think you're
probably way off base!  I've had very close male friends for years, and
it's been an incredibly rewarding part of my life, especially in high
school and college (or maybe I'm just blasee about it now that I'm
in a male-dominated field?).  Yes, I talk about any subject I'd discuss
with my girlfriends, but good grief no, I don't forget they're men.  
Sometimes it's not really relevant -- for instance, I don't think it's
really on our minds when we talk about classes --  but at other times 
it's added a lot to the conversation.  Talking about sex with a friend 
of the opposite sex when you both expect you'll never sleep together is 
incredibly educational and great fun as well -- in a lot of ways you can 
be more direct with each other than with a partner.  And lots of times
I've felt like I've been better understood in one way or another by some
male friend than by any of my female friends.  
  
Oh BTW, I think you were an awfully good sport to elaborate on what you
think without taking my harsh criticisms too personally.  I still think
you're missing out on friendships with women, but I can see where you're
coming from better on the "wannabe" stuff than I did before.

---Julie 
-- 
%  I wonder why it is that when I plan a route too carefully it      %
%  goes to pieces, whereas if I blunder along in blissful ignorance  %
%  aimed in a fancied direction I get through with no trouble.       %
%                      --- John Steinbeck (_Travels with Charley_)   %
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