From: madhaus@netcom.com (Maddi Hausmann)
Subject: Re: Torah is the center of every Jew? (was Orthadox Judaism and women)
Organization: Society for Putting Things on Top of Other Things
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 04:36:18 GMT

I believe this discussion is going nowhere.  Part of the
problem is that some of Dima's remarks seem to have little
to do with what I said. 
 
khaikin@cis.ohio-state.edu (dmitry khaikin) writes: >
madhaus@netcom.com (Maddi Hausmann) writes: >>

>>This is getting nowhere.  You define "knowledgeable" as how much Torah
>>I know versus how much I know.  Since you set up the definition, you
>>can then claim I don't know enough to disagree.  That is a bogus
>>argument.  Look at the reality: if people are leaving the religion,
>>then the religion no longer serves their needs.
>
>Do you really think that Judaism is something you can adjust to your
>needs? 

Did you pay attention to what I said?  Either it will be adjusted
or it will die out.  Which do you prefer?

>>You're so blinded by this O/C/R stuff that you misinterpret what I
>>write.  I refer to people who leave the ranks of Judaism as drop-outs,
>>e.g. people who do not identify themselves as Jewish.
>
>Acusations, acusations... (Soon, I will have a very large collection of
>the things I have been called here: closed minded, blind, ignorant....
>Funny. And all I am trying to do is to argue Reform point of view... Oh,
>well...) 

No accusation; truth.  You have misinterpreted so much of what
I have written that it is frustrating having this discussion
with you.  I sense English is not your first language, but I
also sense that this is not the reason you respond to things I
did not say.

>>I disagree with you completely: the problem is not the people, but
>>the religion.  Otherwise, why are so many people leaving?  People
>>do not leave religions that are compelling, supportive, and give
>>them a sense of community and belonging.
>
>Judaism is not something that is supposed to give you peace inside and
>so on... That's xnity. Judaism is life and it is alife.

Judaism is a religion and that is the purpose of all religions.  Earlier
you mentioned that if I didn't study Torah all the time I could not
have a discussion with you.  From my viewpoint, if you don't know
anything about other religions, or what Judaism has in common with
them, then *you* are not knowledgeable to discuss Judaism's future.
See, this works both ways!

>to tell you the truth all I wanted to do is to see the Refrom and
>Conservative points of view. Well, I saw some of them and as soon as I
>am trying to argue them I am being called things. I find it
>contradicting that you say that you believe in Torah and at the same
>time you ignore some of it, saying that it is not for our modern time.
>How can you define a religion on somebody's personal view and personal
>needs? 

Wrong.  I never said I believed in Torah.  Where did you get that
idea?  I am not Reform.  I am a drop-out.  I gave up on the religion
because it was sexist, remember?  If the Torah says that women must
run their lives differently, then I decided the Torah is wrong.  So
I do not believe in what it says at all.

>>I contend people leave because the religion is so at odds with the
>>secular world, they feel they must choose one or the other.  Only
>>religions who can integrate better will survive.
>
>You know what, that is fine with me. But why would you call this
>religion Judaism? What is so Jewish about what you just wrote?
>
Nothing.  I didn't claim it was.  My original purpose in posting
was to ask Judaism could resolve this dilemma.  I predicted if it
did not, the religion would die out.  You refuse to address this
prediction; you just keep repeating that this isn't a club where
you get to pick your own rules.  I have news for you: it certainly
is a club.  Now, do you want your club to stay in existence?  If
so, what are you willing to do to ensure this?

>>Fine.  Believe whatever you want. It doesn't change a thing.
>
>Well, I think, it changes a lot of things. Like the validity of the
>whole original statement about Orhtodoxy being sexist.

You are incorrect again.  What you believe does not change anything
for anyone except you.  You believe that O is not sexist, but this
does not change the fact that many women feel otherwise and leave
the religion.  Like I said, believe whatever you wish; it will
not change anything.

If you wish to persuade us to choose otherwise, you are going to
have to try a different tack.  Your current one is not succeeding.

>>By the way, your .signature keeps printing twice.  Is this
>>your intention?
>
>NO, it is just a mistake.

Then, would you please fix your mistake?


-- 
Maddi Hausmann                       |  The Truth is still The Truth, forsooth 
madhaus@netcom.com                   |  Even if believing It you refuse
Centigram Communications Corp        |  Disproof's uncouth, refuting moot
San Jose California  408/428-3553    |  A Fundie's brain is dead.

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