From: dpage@ra.csc.ti.com (Doug Page)
Subject: Re: Lifestyle Choices and Secular Reasoning
Organization: Texas Instruments
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 19:24:20 GMT

In article <1993Jan20.222114.6826@netcom.com>, howard@netcom.com (Howard Berkey) writes:
|> In article <1993Jan20.184257.28759@csc.ti.com> dpage@ra.csc.ti.com (Doug Page) writes:
|> >
|> >It is sad that many in these groups attack conservatives for not thinking for
|> >themselves when there are such ridiculous posts as Matt's.  He would be well
|> >served to get in the library and read the historical record rather than
|> >posting quotes which are out of context.  They have been posted before from
|> >the same source and were easily refuted since they misrepresent the views of
|> >most (with the possible exception of Thomas Paine) of the individuals quoted.
|> 
|> 
|> Really?  You knew them?  What were they like?  You must be really old.

What a strong argument to refute the historical record.  Everbody knows that
Reagan knew them all. :)

|> 
|> >Since many of the quotes are no longer allowed to be taught in many public
|> >schools (they might be interpreted as probmoting religion), it isn't that
|> >surprising that Matt does not the whole picture of American history.  He is
|> >likely just a victim of his own "education".
|> 
|> Actually, I've heard those and a lot more like them taught in public
|> school, including high school.  Where are you?  This isn't John Birch
|> land, this is reality.

It is you who should return to reality.  The public record is quite clear and
what is being taught in many public schools is a subset of the truth that
distorts the facts through omission.


|> >As William James once said, " There is nothing so absurd but if you repeat it
|> >often enough people will believe it."
|> 
|> Say 10 Hail Mary's and Hallelujah!

Was this supposed to be a shot?  It simply reinforces my argument, thank you.


|> BTW, look into his life.  It may interest you.

I have.

|> >|> >There is no question that our founders were extremely Christian.
|> >|> 
|> >|>     "It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are
|> >|>     twenty gods or no God.  It neither picks my pocket
|> >|>     nor breaks my leg."
|> >|> 	-- Thomas Jefferson
|> >
|> >Is this supposed to prove that Jefferson was not a Christian?  It is actually
|> >Jefferson making the point with respect to the free exercise clause.
|> 
|> 
|> Well, it is also against one of God's commandments.  Extreme
|> christains wouldn't be so pagan, now would they?

You need to define "Extreme Christians".  Christianity places the
responsiblility for sharing the gospel on each Christian.  It is up to each
individual to respond on their own (Ex. Matthew 11:20-24; 13:24-43).  Would
you consider Christ to be an "extreme Christian"?  He commanded his disciples
to have this attitude (re: Matthew 18:15-20).

|> >New Hampshire, and South Carolina.  While Jefferson was likely a Deist, he did
|> >not deny that God would intervene in history:
|> >
|> 
|> Jefferson was a deist.  By definition.  And you must misunderstand
|> deism, since NO deist would argue that God could intervene in history.

Jefferson was not a deist "by definition".  You need to study the arguments he
and his campaign for the used to prove just the opposite when he ran for
President.  In my haste, I did leave out a couple of key phrases, however.  It
should have read: "While Jefferson was likely a Deist latter in life, prior
to the writting of the US Constitution he did not deny that God would
intervene in history:..."

Any serious study of Jefferson shows him to have professed different
religious beliefs at different times.

|> 
|> >
|> >Funny thing, Lincoln didn't come around for another 80-100 years after the
|> >nation was "founded".  While this quote is often taken out of context and used
|> >to argue that Lincoln was not a Christian.  While there are vast numbers of
|> >quotes and actions which are all a part of the public record which refute what
|> >you are claiming, I am not going to waste the bandwidth with them since what
|> >his beliefs were is really irrelevant to your argument.
|> >
|> 
|> In other words, you just made them up.  Show me one quote to support
|> what you just said.

The are irrelevant to a refutation of the claim the the Founding Fathers were
Christians.  I have posted the quotes in the past and will not waste my time
doing so again when they do not adress the question at hand.  This is already
a side issue in this thread and I will waste neither time nor bandwidth just
to disprove an irrelevant distortion.


|> >
|> >|>     "When a religon is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when
|> >|>     it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support
|> >|>     it so that its professors are obligated to call for help of the
|> >|>     civil power, 'tis a sign, I apprehend, of it being a bad one."
|> >|> 	-- Benjamin Franklin
|> >
|> 
|> I can see you have a short attention span and have lost focus on what
|> this discussion is all really about. We are talking about religion as
|> it pertains to govt. legislation.

Precisely my point WRT the quotes of Lincoln and Grant.  The Franklin quote
that you included above addresses his feelings WRT the establishment of a
state Church.  The quote that you did not include of his address to Washington
and the Constitutional Convention addresses specifically the role of religion
and God in both the American Revolution and the writting of the US
Constitution.  It would appear that it is you that has the short attention
span.

***  The opinions are mine and do not necessarily represent those of my  ***
***  employer.                                                           ***
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