HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Date: Friday, 25 Dec 1992 20:15:40 CST
From: <U60703@uicvm.uic.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.recovery,alt.support
Subject: Re: New in Recovery, need words on relatioships
 <1992Dec22.194436.26491@informix.com>

In article <1992Dec22.194436.26491@informix.com>, hartman@informix.com (Robert
Hartman) says:
>
>>
>
>It seems to me that the basic answer is right here.  I guess I'd
>To me, an addiction is a behavior pattern that I can't control, and an
>obsession is thinking pattern that I can't control.  Like an addiction,
>an obsession keeps me distracted from some underlying unresolved pain.
>
>to the strength of the underlying pain, and the only way out of the
>obsession is to become willing to face up to that pain, with the
>help of one's HP, and bear it.

>One thing about obsessions: once you begin to recognize them, they're
>full of clues about the underlying pain.  So when my mind focuses on a
>person or an activity in an unhealthy way, I can ask myself what it is
>that I want from that person or activity.  It's kind-of like doing an
>inventory.  I ask myself what that person will provide me, and why it
>  There's some real fear and some real pain there.

Robert...........(hope I edited this well enough...had some prob.s)...

Thanks for your informative reminders! I needed to hear this again...and your
way of expressing it hit home again....

I can really relate to an inventory of an obsession....esp. relationships....
after having done so several times....I had to realize what my cravings were...
and there was (still is!) real pain there....for me, my pain relates to the
need/want for love that is deeply embedded in me...that wasn't met as a child.
....a longing to connect and be loved for being me...I can think back to some
pretty outrageous things I'd do....parts of myself that I'd sacrifice just to
get this love in a relationship....which of course, I'd never get....nobody
could ever fill that deep void...and shouldn't be expected to do so...it's
unrealistic.....

I also .....in order to start healing and lose the craving....had to let myself
begin to grieve....the loss of this love that I never got in the way i needed
it....this was NOT easy....but necessary...(still greive it when need arises!)

I think part of me will always have that craving....that longing for a deep
special "real" unconditional love......but the program has helped me fill it
somewhat with myself...self-love....and continues to do so as the weeks go by.
I no longer expect things from people that they cannot possibly deliver....
And I am getting more from all of my relationships....more than I thought I
would from family/friends/SO......It seems the more I get in touch with my
humaness (grief/pain in this case)...I am becoming more alive and at the same
time allowing others to be human too :)

Thanx again Robert.....you've reminded me of just how far I've come....and
I'm pleased with myself :)

Carole
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: eng10204@nusunix1.nus.sg (LOH CHIA WOON)
Subject: Re: Clean time
Organization: National University of Singapore
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 04:31:40 GMT
From: dlittlej@csulb.edu (Darren Littlejohn)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Addiction is not a disease.
Date: 23 Dec 92 09:10:41 GMT
Organization: Cal State Long Beach


I just picked up the book by Stanton Peele, "The Truth about Addiction
and Recovery". Interesting stuff. Maybe if you're not afraid......

-- 
"The Harvests are plentiful, the laborers few" Jesus Christ

"what you're lookin' for, you're lookin' with!" Chuck C.
Newsgroups: alt.recovery,alt.support
From: angelai@wam.umd.edu (Angela I.)
Subject: Looking for (Other) ACoAs
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1993 09:00:39 GMT

Hello.  I just found out that I'm a CoA.
Well, really, a CoCoA, but it seems that a lot of the problems
have carried over...

Right now is ~24 hours after the "crisis" and I'm feeling a
lot better about the whole thing...  Unfortunately, the non-emergency
area of the Counseling Center doesn't open until Monday, but
fortunately, I'm not experiencing an emergency...  

Anyway, I wanted to know if anyone wanted to talk (email or newsgroups)
about it (Adult Children of Alcoholics).

Thanks.
Angela
-- 
**************************  angelai@wam.umd.edu  ****************************
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: ssalter@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (-=[SLS]=-)
Subject: Re: Addiction is not a disease.
Organization: OFSA
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 13:18:34 GMT

dlittlej@csulb.edu (Darren Littlejohn)
>
>I just picked up the book by Stanton Peele, "The Truth about Addiction
>and Recovery". Interesting stuff. Maybe if you're not afraid......
>
>-- 
>"The Harvests are plentiful, the laborers few" Jesus Christ
>
>"what you're lookin' for, you're lookin' with!" Chuck C.


well, what does it say?

Steve
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: wrhogeb@srv.PacBell.COM (Bill Hogeboom)
Subject: Re: Clean time
Organization: Pacific * Bell
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1992 20:43:06 GMT

In article <BzzKB2.LHG@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> ssalter@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (-=[SLS]=-) writes:
>scimitar@suction.acme.gen.nz (Robert Singers) sez:
>
>>I was wondering if anyone had come across the same problem I did.  The 
>>fixation with the length of clean time.  When I was regularly going to 
>>meetings and worked shops I noticed that a lot of the people who had 
>>been in recovery for a long time, said "I'm clean today" if everyone was 
>>asked how long they'd been clean.
>
>I used to be extraordinarily concerned with the amount of time I had
>been sober and clean. After a while it proved to be a silly
>preoccupation. What really matters is whether you are clean and sober
>TODAY. I know I have over 2.5 years sober but can't remember what my
>sobriety date is...I have it written down at home though. :)
>

I agree that the most important clean time is today, however, I will
probably always remember the date of the first day that spent
without using drugs or alcohol. Over the last few years, when things
seem overwhelming it's reassuring to look back on the amount of
clean time I have experienced. Sometimes it is nice to know that it
has worked in the past and that it will work today if I work it!

Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: puckett@lambda.msfc.nasa.gov (Jim Puckett)
Subject: SOBER! Still!
Organization: NASA/MSFC
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 20:24:06 GMT

Been sober now for 2798 days, Thanks God, and ya know what? I _still_
don't have to go out and get drunk on New Year's Eve!


love and service,
jim p.
-- 
Jim Puckett    NTI    puckett@lambda.msfc.nasa.gov     
Madison,AL (205)461-4922  
i need to ask myself.....
***********         Would I rather be right, or happy?         ***********
From: joan@med.unc.edu (Joan Shields)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Re: My sobriety date
Date: 30 Dec 92 21:16:33 GMT
Organization: UNC-CH School of Medicine

In article <1992Dec28.232555.10626@fuug.fi> an3203@anon.penet.fi (Andrew) writes:
>I just thought I would provide an opposing viewpoint from
>the others who posted here on sobriety dates (or clean time).

I'm going to have to disagree with you here.

>When I had only one day sober I could not have said anything
>about how to stayu sober to anyone.  Someone with 10 years of
>continuous sobriety can tell me a hell of a lot about how to
>stay sober, because he/she has been through a lot more of
>those low spots that I'm sur to find.

I've been sober almost 7 years and while it's true I've gotten a lot out
of oldtimers (and anyone else with more "time" than I) I have also gotten
a tremendous amount of help from newcomers.  There's the old saying, "Out
of the mouthes of babes..." and the way newcomers can help me remember 
that if I'm sober today it's something.  I forget how it was and the new-
comer helps me remember.  Also working with newcomers helps me - I relearn
all those lessons by helping someone else go through them.  It also helps
when I have to sit down and explain why I do the things I do - sometimes
I get caught :).

>And I'll put my money on the 25 year guy over the slipper any
>day, at least as far as being able to be useful to me.

I always make it a point to listen very very carefully to someone who has
slipped and come back.  It helps me not slip when I hear over and over
again the reasons they went out and that it's still cold out there in the
bottle.

Everyone, from the one day sober to to 57 year sober has important things
to offer us all if we'll just keep listening.  Even the assholes can save
our asses.

Joan
From: Joseph.V.Kelly.Jr@dartmouth.edu (Joseph V. Kelly Jr)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: I hate NEW YEARS!!!!
Date: 1 Jan 93 22:29:40 GMT
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH
X-Posted-From: InterNews1.0b1@newshost.dartmouth.edu

Since I was a little kid. New Years is when everyone was drunk, and it
would be so mundane to be a kid when around you everyone is drunk.

And then I drank on New Years, and that wasn't any good. Just another
day spent drunk. Then I had a relationship with a woman I loved deeply,
and we spent an incredible new year's together -- the relationship
panned out early in my sobriety, and I had to deal with another New
Years sober and unhappy.

My one good New Years was at the end of 1991, when driving back to
school from California to New Hampshire, I stopped in Memphis, Tenn.
New Years eve. I realized that I was on the road, and I was becoming
very depressed, so I got a motel room, and called AA, and got a
meeting. It was in the upstairs of some building on Austin Peay
Highway, and it felt good to walk into a warm room and sit down with
some other drunks and sip a cup o' java. They invited me to an AA dance
they were having in some gym that night, so I hopped in my car and
followed.

I had a great time at the dance, and I felt a part of the 1000+
recovering people in the gym. I met several people whose names I've
long forgotten.

This New Years things didn't go my way, and I felt lonely and all that
stuff, but I feel good that it's a new year, and I'm sober.

Son of a bitch! Everything's real!

demolition.joe@dartmouth.edu
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: ssalter@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (-=[SLS]=-)
Subject: Re: Clean time
Organization: OFSA
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1992 20:16:14 GMT

scimitar@suction.acme.gen.nz (Robert Singers) sez:

>I was wondering if anyone had come across the same problem I did.  The 
>fixation with the length of clean time.  When I was regularly going to 
>meetings and worked shops I noticed that a lot of the people who had 
>been in recovery for a long time, said "I'm clean today" if everyone was 
>asked how long they'd been clean.

I used to be extraordinarily concerned with the amount of time I had
been sober and clean. After a while it proved to be a silly
preoccupation. What really matters is whether you are clean and sober
TODAY. I know I have over 2.5 years sober but can't remember what my
sobriety date is...I have it written down at home though. :)
From: class01@vill.edu (UCIS)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Re: Clean time
Date: 28 Dec 92 22:09:00 GMT
Organization: Villanova University
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.4-b1

In article <1992Dec28.204306.18891@PacBell.COM>, wrhogeb@srv.PacBell.COM (Bill Hogeboom) writes...
>In article <BzzKB2.LHG@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> ssalter@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (-=[SLS]=-) writes:
>>scimitar@suction.acme.gen.nz (Robert Singers) sez:
>>
>>>I was wondering if anyone had come across the same problem I did.  The 
>>>fixation with the length of clean time.  When I was regularly going to 
>>>meetings and worked shops I noticed that a lot of the people who had 
>>>been in recovery for a long time, said "I'm clean today" if everyone was 
>>>asked how long they'd been clean.

To echo the posts of other, It is important to remember on any particular
day, the amount of Sober/Clean time  that you have depend merely upon when
you woke up that morning. My personal obsession with time, Clean/Sober time
hit me in the face on Day 77, waiting for the train to go to work, I figured
out how many day's I had and then I relazied i was trying to count to a goal
...The goal being when i could go back out..........Scared, terrified at the
way my warped mindcould preplan a re-descent in to Hell...I Stopped counting
day's....I do celebrate Aniverseries, but quietly, with a small pat of the back
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: eng10204@nusunix1.nus.sg (LOH CHIA WOON)
Subject: test
Organization: National University of Singapore
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 04:27:26 GMT
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Clean time
From: scimitar@suction.acme.gen.nz (Robert Singers)
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 92 00:25:57 +1300
Organization: Barbed Wire Cat Productions

I was wondering if anyone had come across the same problem I did.  The 
fixation with the length of clean time.  When I was regularly going to 
meetings and worked shops I noticed that a lot of the people who had 
been in recovery for a long time, said "I'm clean today" if everyone was 
asked how long they'd been clean.

Robert Singers               | Nothing I say or do should be taken as
scimitar@suction.acme.gen.nz | a reflection of any form of reality or
                             | consensual hallucination.
From: lash@cwis.unomaha.edu (Kevin Lash)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Looking for AA in Alexandria, LA
Date: 25 Dec 92 16:35:43 GMT
Organization: University of Nebraska at Omaha
Dpath: cwis!lash

Anyone out there live in the Alexandria, LA area?  I'll be going there soon
and will need to find some meetings.  I'm not looking forward to leaving my
secure little world here so finding some meetings is a high priority.  
Thanks in advance.

                                 Kev
                                 
--
Jim McMahon 
jmcmahon@cwis.unomaha.edu or 
strathost.stratcom.af.mil
Being ordinary and nothing special is a full-time job.
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: dlittlej@csulb.edu (Darren Littlejohn)
Subject: Re: Addiction is not a disease.
Organization: Cal State Long Beach
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1992 01:01:37 GMT

It says that more people aren't helped than are by 12 step programs.
That is hard to say. It also says that you can do it alone, unless
you've got a LOT of pain. Gee, that means everybody I've met at a meeting.
Umm...to nbe honest, I haven't read any more of it, since I am in the
middle of three or 4 other books right now. I will be getting into it
though, as I have to use stuff like this for the discussion sectio of
my thesis. More to come....

-- 
"The Harvests are plentiful, the laborers few" Jesus Christ

"what you're lookin' for, you're lookin' with!" Chuck C.
From: Mark.Perew@p201.f208.n103.z1.fidonet.org
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Clean time
X-Sender: newtout 0.02 Nov 17 1992
Date: 28 Dec 92  16:05:26

In a message of <Dec 22 03:25>, scimitar@suction.acme.gen.nz (Robert Singers) 
writes:

 >I was wondering if anyone had come across the same problem I did.  The 
 >fixation with the length of clean time.

Yeah.  I had a chat with my sponsor about this not long ago.  We came to the
conclusion that it is too hard to guage the quality of recovery so we have
come to the tradition of guaging the quantity of recovery.

 >When I was regularly going to 
 >meetings and worked shops I noticed that a lot of the people who had 
 >been in recovery for a long time, said "I'm clean today" if everyone was 
 >asked how long they'd been clean.

Qualitatively speaking, isn't that all that counts?

--- Mark Perew  Mark.Perew@ofa123.fidonet.org
--- Mark's Information Repository and Funtime Emporium (1:103/208.201)


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Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: eng10204@nusunix1.nus.sg (LOH CHIA WOON)
Subject: Re: Clean time
Organization: National University of Singapore
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 04:31:52 GMT

Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: ebh@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (Ed Horch)
Subject: Re: Addiction is not a disease.
Organization: AT&T
Distribution: na
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 14:47:42 GMT

>It means that they don't work for everyone.  Some people aren't so bad 
>off as to need the steps, others aren't bad off enough to want them.

One of the things I love about this group is that you never have to wait
very long before someone makes a value judgment about the recoveries of
people they've never even met...

Will the dogma ever end?

-Ed
From: HF.ALB@forsythe.stanford.edu (Ann Babb)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Happy New Year
Date: 31 Dec 1992 11:25:18 -0800
Organization: Stanford University
NNTP-Posting-Host: morrow.stanford.edu

Hello, Everyone!  Wishing you all a very happy, healthy, clean and
sober (and that ever-elusive sane!) New Year -- may 1993 be the best
one yet!

Ann B.
From: bu979@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Chris C. Raber)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Re: More on "relationships" (Second try)
Date: 21 Dec 1992 22:16:28 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


I once heard of an AA how had t-shirts made with the slogan

"STRAIGHT PEPPER DIET"


Just thought I'd share that!


Chris.
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Date: Thursday, 24 Dec 1992 19:50:36 CST
From: <U60703@uicvm.uic.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.recovery,alt.support
Subject: Re: so far away - for Tim

In article <BzMpz3.7sw@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>, ssalter@silver.ucs.indiana.edu
(-=[SLS]=-) says:
>
>well here I am again in this mean old town
>and you're so far away from me
>where are you when the sun go down
>you're so far away from me
>
>so far away from me
>so far I just can't see
>so far away from me
>you're so far away from me.
>
>===
>
>for Tim...died two and a half years ago at age 24.
>
>does it ever stop hurting?

Yes.....and no. It will continue to come and go in spurts....but I like to
believe that as time goes by....the grief becomes like tides that recede
further away.

I lost my sister last year right after X-mas....she was 36...young, pretty,
intelligent, and full of the wonder only a child has....I miss her very
much....but if I let myself feel the pain as it comes forth...another tiny
part of me heals inside :).....

Carole
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: eng10204@nusunix1.nus.sg (LOH CHIA WOON)
Subject: Re: Clean time
Organization: National University of Singapore
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 04:30:56 GMT

Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: an3203@anon.penet.fi (Andrew)
Subject: My sobriety date
Organization: Anonymous contact service
X-Anonymously-To: alt.recovery
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1992 23:29:49 GMT

I just thought I would provide an opposing viewpoint from
the others who posted here on sobriety dates (or clean time).

It's a nice little cliche, the one where a person's sobriety
is based on how early in the morning he/she got up.

I don't buy it however.  (The crowd says... WHAT??!)

When I had only one day sober I could not have said anything
about how to stayu sober to anyone.  Someone with 10 years of
continuous sobriety can tell me a hell of a lot about how to
stay sober, because he/she has been through a lot more of
those low spots that I'm sur to find.

Someone 30 days sober is often on a pink cloud and thinks
everything is easy and wonderful.  (Sometimes a 30 day sober
person is still edgy, I was.)

My sobriety is the result of a loving God, and continuous
effort.  Neither of which I had at 30 days sober.  Neither of
which I had at 1 year.  Sobriety takes time.  If the person
with the best sobriety time was the person who woke up first
in the morning then the guy who drinks, stays sober a day,
drink, stays sober a day, etc. would be able to just as easily
explain to me how to stay sober as a guy who has 25 years.

And I'll put my money on the 25 year guy over the slipper any
day, at least as far as being able to be useful to me.

Just another viewpoint.

Andrew.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
To find out more about the anon service, send mail to help@anon.penet.fi.
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Xref: sparky alt.recovery:3734 alt.support:1558
From: ssalter@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (-=[SLS]=-)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery,alt.support
Subject: so far away - for Tim
Date: 21 Dec 92 21:49:51 GMT
Organization: OFSA

well here I am again in this mean old town
and you're so far away from me
where are you when the sun go down
you're so far away from me

so far away from me
so far I just can't see
so far away from me
you're so far away from me.

===

for Tim...died two and a half years ago at age 24.

does it ever stop hurting?
From: hartman@informix.com (Robert Hartman)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Re: Seeking help on "The God Thing"
Date: 21 Dec 92 20:16:52 GMT
Organization: Informix Software, Inc.

In article <75655@apple.apple.COM> bc@Apple.COM (bill coderre) writes:
>
>We've had a lot of bickering lately about praying, God, recovery, and
>AA official opinion.
>
>Not that I'd like to put a stop to that, but I am interested in
>getting some help "finding" my higher power. Anybody got a good
>reference?
>
>I have tried to re-work the concepts and ideas into a Zen
>Buddhist-like framework, but it's hard to do while I'm busy
>recovering.

What worked for me was to refrain from indulging in any of my concepts
about a Higher Power, and to let that power reveal itself in whatever
way it chose.  This went hand in hand with letting go of control of my
recovery process.  I had to acknowledge that my recovery was a process
that would lead me to become someone I didn't already know.  Scary, but
I must say I like who I am now a lot better than who I was.

I couldn't "understand" my HP.  In fact, I think that trying to do so
for me was a way to try to "control" my HP.  So for me, it's better not
to understand my HP, but to focus on my relationship with Her.

To me, it was the "little miracles," and the big insights that were the
clearest evidence that I was being well cared for.  Those things
brought me into a belief that my needs in life would be met after all.

I haven't thought about this in a long time.  It's good to remember
what a joy it was when I started to see how things actually did tend
to work out for me.

Take good care,

-r
From: Mark.Perew@p201.f208.n103.z1.fidonet.org
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Re: Rational Recovery
X-Sender: newtout 0.02 Nov 17 1992
Date: 21 Dec 92  11:41:07

In a message of <Dec 19 20:31>, knight@santafe.santafe.edu (Bob Knight)
writes:

 >I had a *real* hard time with the God thing, too.  While I was
 >drinking, I viewed people who believed in God as needing a crutch.
 >Well, I found that I needed it, too.

Crutch?  Heck, I need a whole hospital.  I need someone doing surgery on my
heart.  I need a whole set of people around me that ask me if I'm feeling OK
when I start acting sick.  I need one person that I have a special
relationship with who knows my history and who am I and can ask questions
about where I am and what I'm doing.  

Is God a crutch?  I make no apologies for saying that He is my crutch and my
my surgeon and the Chief of Staff over a whole ensemble of people who are
important to my recovery!

--- Mark Perew  Mark.Perew@ofa123.fidonet.org
--- Mark's Information Repository and Funtime Emporium (1:103/208.201)


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