HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jmm25@po.CWRU.Edu (Jessica M. Mcgeary)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Did Jesus Exist (was Re: "Jesus did not claim....")
Date: 15 Sep 1992 19:06:45 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: thor.ins.cwru.edu


To the best of my knowledge, the only real historical proof of the
existence of Jesus of Nazareth is a passage in Josephus' history somewhere.
Trouble is, that bit is considered most likely to have been injected by
Christians after the fact, because Josephus was a fairly devout Jew, and
the statement made in it ("he was the Christ") seems a bit bald and out
of character for Josephus. There is proof of Pilate's existence, in the
form of an inscription dug up in Palestine someplace, and I heard they found
the tomb of Caiaphas, who according to the Gospels was the high priest who
really had it in for Jesus, but aside from that I can't recall hearing
overly much about real proof for Jesus' existence. Except, as you said,
oral legends and traditions and suchlike. Makes sense to think that they
took a real live person and just got carried away... look at George Washing-
ton and what they've done to him in just 200-odd years of storytelling!
-- 
Jessica McGeary
jmm25@po.cwru.edu
Case Western Reserve University
Remember! Arguments should be FUN!
Xref: sparky alt.pagan:9065 rec.org.sca:13007
From: c1741@moncol.monmouth.edu (MICHAEL CARSON)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan,rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Wicca and the SCA
Date: 10 Sep 92 16:14:05 GMT
Followup-To: alt.pagan
Organization: Monmouth College, W. Long Branch, N.J.  07764

In article <wJ7uqB4w165w@brewich.hou.tx.us> donal@brewich.hou.tx.us (Donal) writes:
>
>Huzzah! Well said, Peter. I must vociferously agree with all of the above.
>My original design for my arms, I will not bore you with the blazon (if I
>could even remember it), centered around a rack of stags horns and a 'plate',
>or full moon. It was refused for being to blatantly 'Pagan'. I do not think
>I need make any more comment than that.
>
>
>--------------------
>Donal, SysAdmin of The Brewer's Witch BBS -- +1 713 272 7350
>(Internet) donal@brewich.hou.tx.us  (Work) bill%pssi@lobster.hou.tx.us
>(CIS) 76460,1443 
>(SCA) Ld. Donal Dubh, IC of Dun Bruddair, B of the Stargate, K of Ansteorra

	How historically accurate is the SCA trying to be?
	Was the open display of pagan symbols in the time period that
the SCA is concerned with a Very Dangerous Thing(tm)?

	If the org is trying to be true to a time period when it was a 
dangerous thing to disply pagan symbols, it is probably better that they
do it by not allowing the symbology to be used, rather than following the
actual methods of the Church.  
	On the other hand, if the org is NOT trying to be historically
accurate, or if the individual is representing a historically accurate
person from within the time-frame of the SCA, then the banning of pagan
symbology is silly.  

|o|\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/|o|
|o| Of Course I speak  |      michael carson       | Carpe Diem, Man.        |o|
|o|  only for myself.  | c1741@moncol.monmouth.edu |                -me      |o|
|o| Would YOU let me   +---------------------------+-------------------------|o|
|o|  speak for you?!?  |      All flames to: nobody@moncol.monmouth.edu      |o|
|o|\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/|o|
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: sdemitri@nyx.cs.du.edu (Suzanne Lucia Demitrio)
Subject: Re: Christian Census
Organization: University of Denver, Dept. of Math & Comp. Sci.
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 92 05:57:17 GMT

popec@brewich.hou.tx.us (Pope Charles) writes:

>Bolt yer doors and pull down the curtains!  Here they come.  September 
>20th a number of evangelical churches are going to hold what they call 
>"The Christian Census".  That is, on that date they intend to have a 
>massive door to door campaign designed to ask every man, woman and child
>in America, "have you found Jesus"?  Just thot you all would like to 
>know. 
>
>  You hear the knock on the door.  You know it's 'them'.  You go to the 
>door, you open it and you say................................

No, no, no!  They've got it all garbled. The Befana is supposed to knock
on your door on January 6, not November 20, and ask you whether you know
where the Christ Child is ... and leave presents for the children of the
house even if you don't.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Suzanne Lucia                                   sdemitri@nyx.cs.du.edu


Xref: sparky alt.pagan:9314 alt.individualism:5429
From: darsie@eecs.ucdavis.edu (Richard Darsie)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: pagan self-defense
Date: 9 Sep 92 15:25:40 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: University of California, Davis

In article <2AAD4490.10608@news.service.uci.edu>, cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese) writes:
> 
         [stuff deleted]
> 
> >"An armed society is a polite society."
> 
> Nope.  An armed society is one where people are blown away constantly --
> witness the good old U. S. of A.  An armed society is a murder-crazed
> one.  An armed society is a dangerous society.  An armed society is a
> psychotic society, needing only a small tip before it overturns and
> crushed you underneath.  An armed society is a deadly society.  

etc.  RIGHT ON, JANIS!! I'm with you on this one all the way!

I curse the "Founding Fathers" for their hazy and vague scribblings
about an "armed militia" which the NRA and their ilk use as an excuse
to justify legal possession of semiautomatic weapons - enough firepower
in one person's hands to wipe out an entire regiment in Revolutionary
War days. Had the FF been able to foresee modern weapons they might
have been a little more explicit. Personally, I think Americans'
fascination with guns has a great deal to do with our Puritan heritage
and all of the sexual repression that went along with that whole trip.

> Blessings,
> Janis 

Blessings back at you, Janis the Very Wise

Richard
(Tuneweaver)

     "Oh, my name is Francis Tolliver, in Liverpool I dwell
     Each Christmas come since World War I, I've learned its lessons well.
     The ones who call the shots won't be among the dead and maimed
     And on each side of the rifle we're the same."

     from Christmas in the Trenches, by John McCutcheon
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: ciaran@county.lmt.mn.org (Ciaran Benson)
Subject: Re: New pagans and reading
Reply-To: ciaran@county.lmt.mn.org (Ciaran Benson)
Organization: LaserMaster Technologies, Minneapolis, MN
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 92 17:38:32 GMT

In article <2AA57400.1570@news.service.uci.edu>, cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu 
(Janis Maria Cortese) writes:
> 
> Carl Sagan's _Cosmos_  He may yank a few chains connected to people who
> thing science and spirituality are mutually exclusive, but screw `em.
> Read the book!

  A book which earned its own altar in my library is

  "The Day The Universe Changed" by James Berke.

  The show was inspirational, but the book is positively
altering -- "If, then, we are what we believe we are, and the
world is just as we perceive it to be, then perceive!"

  He treads the very sureal waters of the boundries between
our fundimental assumptions about the world, our measurements
of the accuracy of our fundimental assuptions, and the effect
that it has on our experience of the world.

  If, for example, the sun really _DID_ revolve around the
earth, how would that change our experience, our mathematics,
and our lives?

  The answer is, according to Berke, that as far as the daily
process of getting from home to work to the grocery and back
home again, it wouldn't matter at all.  Columbus sailed the
ocean blue using flat-earth mathematics and a scientific
understanding that said stuff moves in straight lines, period.

  But he made it, and if you used the same mathematical assumptions
and formula, then you would make it too (baring an unfortunate
storm or mishap).

  James spends most of his time exploring what we know, then
what we know about knowing what we know, and then, finally --
and most thoroughly, the understanding of understanding itself.
How do we go about understanding in the first place?  If there
is such a thing as Science, and such a thing as Religion, then
by what process are they separate things and how do we define
the boundry?  Why do we define boundries in the first place?
Do all human societies define boundries, or is there something
uniquely occidental about placing things in smaller and smaller
boxes?

  Well, of course there is.

  My highest recommendation to anyone getting started in Paganism,
especially as it reveals some of the underpinnings of how our
society (occidental, that is) became what it is today.

  It helped me understand just where my Paganism lie -- most of
the books I had read to that point were very western in
view, without ever talking about what the western view was
or what did to our process of analysing things.

  #invoke Short.Story (too late): James Burke discusses the
tools of comprehension themselves through an analysis of
"Why We Are The Way We Are".

  I now hereby pass the soapbox.  Ciaran.

  $uslinit; include oblig.sig <<
  "...And here, Queen Aphrodite, pour heavenly nectar into gold
   cups, and fill them gracefully with sudden joy."  -- Sappho >>
From: alizard@drc.UUCP (alizard)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: re: something to check out
Date: Sat, 05 Sep 92 18:17:55 PDT
Organization: BLa Bla Bla Bla Bla BLa BLa Concord,Ca

I'd love to see an Islamic analysis of Jesus's alleged divinity.
POST! POST! POST!
B*B
alizard
  alizard@tweekco.uucp  OR  boo!tweekco!alizard@PacBell.COM
  [uunet]!pacbell!boo!tweekco!alizard

Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: pst@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Peter Stephen Thomas Iii)
Subject: Re: Men's Mysteries
Organization: Computing Services Division, University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 04:29:14 GMT

In article <2AAE6611.11366@news.service.uci.edu> cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese) writes:

[lots of stuff, all of which I agree with]

Janis, you and I are violently in agreement here.  

I stated what I did to get the topic moving in a direction I thought would be
very productive.  I'm glad to hear some of the women agreeing with me on
this.

Peter Thomas



-- 
"I'll lose my beard when they shave it from my cold, dead face!"

Quote from the Razor's Anonymous Handbook
From: cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
Subject: Re: pagan self-defense
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: 13 Sep 92 20:23:27 GMT

In article <1992Sep13.180230.24048@CSD-NewsHost.Stanford.EDU> andy@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (Andy Freeman) writes:
>In article <2AAFA3D8.13987@news.service.uci.edu> cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese) writes:
>>Pretty strong for someone who's anti-death penalty (I think.  My
>>personal mental jury is still out on that one). 
>
>There's not necessarily a contradiction between being willing to use
>lethal force in self-defense and being against the death penalty.  (If
>there is a contradiction in your value system, you can't call the
>police either, because they will threaten lethal force on your
>behalf.)
>
>The death penalty is a deliberate action where the actor is
>in no danger.  Self-defense is to stop an attack.  The attacker
>can avoid it at any time.

I think I dislike the death penalty because of the quick-and-dirty
nature of the solution it presents.  If you have an ingrown toenail,
cure it by cutting off your foot.

I though the penal system was supposed to REHABILITATE people.  Yeah,
right.  If we have to kill them because we're failing to rehabilitate
them, then we're not doing it right.  It's like a society that says that
they have no abused children because when they find one, they kill it.
We should be finding out WHY our culture keeps turning out loonies, not
letting them get loony and then kacking `em.

Besides, I don't like using the "justice" system as a means of getting
back at ANYONE.  If someone kills someone else, the "justice" system is
responsible for neutralizing the threat that the murderer poses; if that
means rehabilitating them so they are productive citizens, then
everybody wins.  Killing them because, well, they did something nasty,
is just not valid in a larger sense.  Public justice should not be an
arena for private vengeance.

I know, if someone killed my mom, I'd want them dead, too.  But I'd also
love to shove my ex-boyfriend down a flight of steps.  Should I ask the
"justice" system to do that as well?

Blessings,
Janis  

P.S.: Hmph.  Maybe my jury just reached a verdict . . .
From: cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
Subject: Re: Did Jesus Exist (was Re: "Jesus did not claim....")
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: 15 Sep 92 04:59:14 GMT

In article <1992Sep15.015756.27376@newssun.med.miami.edu> lori@umbio.med.miami.edu (Lori Herrington) writes:
>Last semester I took a History of Christianity class in which my text
>book ( Christianity by Baiton) and my professor quoted Josephus ( a well
>known jewish historian and should the jews did document Jesus's
>existance as a man.  The romans also had hime listed in a few
>documents... as a man of course...he did live.

What are these documented instances?  If they just said "A public
traitor named Yeshua was executed by crucifixion today," it doesn't mean
much.  Kind of like saying a guy named John got a parking ticket in
1984.  There were a lots of Yeshuas around then, and a lot of
crucifixions, too.

Blessings,
Janis
From: evc@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Edward Van Cura)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Lugh is Also an Irish War God!
Date: 8 Sep 92 03:53:09 GMT

[If this is double-posted, it is not intentional. ---Thorfinn]

From *The Encyclopedia of Religion* edited by Mircea Eliade
Book 9, page 48

...He alone possesses all faculties and assumes all the functions of 
the other gods: he is at once druid, warrior, and craftsman. It is he
who through his magic ensures the victory of the Irish over the
demons, the Fomhoire, who oppressed Ireland. The son of the Fomorian
Delbaeth ("undifferentiated form") and of Eriu (Ireland), he defeats
his grandfather Balar ("flash of lightning") by slaying him with a
slingshot.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Thorfinn Einarsson *  ALU ALU ALU   *  " Nu em ek reidhr" ---Thor
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
From: ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com (Ailsa N.T. Murphy)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: yet another weensy question from you-know-who
Date: 7 Sep 92 17:50:56 GMT
Organization: Ailanthus Project

klotz@lclark.edu (Gretchen Klotz) writes:

> In article <NcwoqB1w165w@ailanth.UUCP> ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com (Ailsa N.T
> >
> >me too!  i'm glad you posted, because after hearing that there wern't any, i
> >thought i might have been hallucinating!  neat things, sand dollars...
> >
> >                                           -ailsa
>
> Hey, ailsa!
>
> There are lots of sand dollars on the Oregon Coast.
>
yet another inducement to move to oregon!  sand dollars are hard to find on the
maine.  are they more common in oregon?  are there other neat shell-cretures?

*sigh*  accpeting donations to change coasts!

                                             -ailsa

p.s. now the question is: would i get mroe money from the leftcoast people to
get me THERE, or the rightcoast people to send me AWAY?  B)



=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
                    ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com
 I wish her insight to battle love's blindness            ________
 Strength from the milk of human kindness         Silence \      / Action
 A safe place for all the pieces that scattered      =     \    /    =
 Learn to pretend there's more than love           Death    \  /    Life
                                  that matters               \/
From: amadeus@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Susan Harwood Kaczmarczik)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: FAQ on Pagan Bookstores
Date: 12 Sep 92 04:05:35 GMT
Organization: University of Texas at Austin


Tammy Stark Blandino writes:

>Would someone like to create a FAQ listing good sources for books
>and other things for various cities.  People could write in for
>their city. 
>[...]
>We might want to do the same thing for books, and "what is 
>paganism" etc.  I think creating some FAQ's for this group
>would be a good idea.

Ailsa, Bran, Radzy and I are working on one right now.  We've compiled
all the questions that everyone sent us, and we're working on the
phrasing and structure of the FAQ.  

As far as the books go, we have a list of sources for people just
starting out; also, Radzy has larger lists of books, both fiction and
non.  

It is happening, it's just a time-consuming process.  

Just so everyone knows we're still on the job...

-- 
-----Susan Harwood Kaczmarczik-------------------------------*<:-)-------------
"Queens never make bargains."  -- The Red Queen, _Through the Looking Glass_
-----amadeus@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu--------------The University of Texas @Austin---
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: donal@brewich.hou.tx.us (Donal)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Maelstrom
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 92 07:46:52 CDT
Organization: The Brewer's Witch BBS, +1 713 272 7350, Brewich.Hou.TX.US

krikket@meltdown.chi.il.us (D. 'krikket' Krick) writes:

> Wierd...  I wish I could help...  But this does rase a few questions at my en
> that "Maelstrom" thinks are fairly well known...
> 
> Where is this "War"?  What is this "War"?  When he says "whites" is he referi
> to skin color or magical practice style?  Etc. Etc. Etc...

Remember that first of all, this person is obviously a crank, and does not 
really understand anything about us. The 'war' is in his imagination. He
refers to 'whites' in a belief that what he has seen on TV is true 
(i.e. White vs. Black witches). What worries me is that this person 
may be out there claiming to be an HP, that this person may be 
teaching, that this person may be trying to do public relations on 
behalf of 'The Craft'. This is what has me worried.


--------------------
Donal, SysAdmin of The Brewer's Witch BBS -- +1 713 272 7350
(Internet) donal@brewich.hou.tx.us  (Work) bill%pssi@lobster.hou.tx.us
(CIS) 76460,1443 
(SCA) Ld. Donal Dubh, IC of Dun Bruddair, B of the Stargate, K of Ansteorra
From: lib1p@rosie.uh.edu (Tammy Stark Blandino)
Subject: Re: ancestors stories
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: University of Houston
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1992 19:46:00 GMT

In article <BuEvKL.qH@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk>, jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin) writes...
>This is in no way intended to knock the idea of recovering knowledge from
>older generations (my grandparents all died before I could get anything
>like that out of them) - but older doesn't always mean better.  It's been a

Nobody said it was.  If my grandfather had a model T ford and
I have porsche 928S which is the better car?  Does that stop
me from wanting to ride in his model T?  Does that mean I 
should deny my children and grandchildren from seeing and 
touching and riding in their great great grandfather's car?
And in that matter my grandchildren will have a better car
than I.  Does this mean that they will not cherish that 
928S when my body is in the earth?

It is my responsibility to preserve the past for the future.
When my eldars die all that is non-physical dies with them.
Never again to be known, *UNLESS* I get it from them and 
preserve it for the future.  It should enrich our lives, not
squash it.

Tammy
From: boylan@sltg04.ljo.dec.com (Steve Boylan)
Subject: Re: yet another weensy question from you-know-who
Reply-To: boylan@sltg04.ljo.dec.com (Steve Boylan)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 21:34:08 GMT


Just for a bit of info - sand dollars still can be found on the
beaches of Maine.  I stayed at a cottage in York Beach for a week
a couple years ago, and we could find plenty of sand dollars during
morning walks - although most were very small (perhaps "sand dime"
size!).

				- - Steve
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: lib1p@rosie.uh.edu (Tammy Stark Blandino)
Subject: Male mysteries and homophobia
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: University of Houston
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 00:46:00 GMT

I just got throught reading a post on some suggestions on
reading about male mysteries.  Many of them are by gays.
The thought occurred to me that women are much more open
and accepting of closeness of each other than men.  As a
result a man may shy away from male mysteries for 
homophobic reasons.

Quite frankly I see no problems with hetero or homo
love, nor in above said in the form of sex.  We should
learn that this body is just a vessel that houses our
soul.  Our personalities are the interfaces that allow
us to interact with the world.  We should not fear 
closeness because the one we are getting close to is
of the same/different sex.

When we can put aside the confines of the physical 
world and express love of soul then we can truly learn.
I hope that men out there do not lose out on the 
greatest thing possible, communion, just because of
homophobia. 

Also, being involved in male mysteries does not mean
that you must be slightly/greatly homosexual.  The
same that just because you have a friend that is 
homosexual doesn't mean that you are.  

I think that the greatest thing that men can do for
themselves is to get involved in male mysteries.
I wish all those now incarnate in male bodies the
greatest of luck and happiness in their pursuit of
themselves.

Love and Blessings
Tammy
Newsgroups: alt.pagan