From: jester@crash.cts.com (Ken Bibb)
Subject: Re: Prog Rock Isolationism (Was Re: Welcome to alt.fan.peter.hammill)
Date: 28 Aug 92 17:27:58 GMT

In <1992Aug27.063605.12467@itnsg1.cineca.it> marco@itnsg1.cineca.it (Marco Olivotto) writes:

>jester@crash.cts.com (Ken Bibb) writes:

>>I question if there is a need for this group: don't get me wrong, I'm a
>>big fan of pH and vdgg, *BUT* this smacks of the elitist, narrow world-view
>>promoted by the rush newsgroup.

>	Ken, I appreciate your point of view. I've been thinking about creating
>this newsgroup for about two months. It's been advertised in alt.config and
>several other groups of the alt. hierarchy for a while, and quite a few people
>said they were interested.

Just because people are interested doesn't mean that a group needs to be
created :)

>	I don't feel elitist at all, if I must say it all -- the only reason
>is that I (and, apparently, other people) think that an artist such as pH
>deserves to have a group of his own.

No, no, no.  I'm not saying that *you* are elitist, nor am I saying that pH
fans are.  I *am* saying that newsgroups dedicated to a single artist/group
smack of elitism.  This scares off many potential readers, imho, especially
when they see who the other specialized groups are for...

And *of course* an artist of pH's caliber deserves his (or her) own group.
I just think that more people should get a chance to be exposed to his music.

>	I guess that I am in the position to coordinate such a group, because
>I am quite a good friend of this man, I am constantly in touch with him, and
>can maybe access interesting information sooner than others -- in this sense
>I am a reliable source of news (humble, maybe, but reliable).

It *does sound like you are in a good position to coordinate :)  Does pH
know of the Internet community?  Has he ever gone online?  I think this may
be of interest to him, since he seems to be an artist who cares about his
fans...

>>There *is* a need for fans worldwide to keep in touch with each other, but
>>how are we to attract new Peter Hammill/Van Der Graaf Generator fans if we
>>concentrate our posts in a new newsgroup?  The average music listener
>>is *not* aware of Hammill, nor are they aware of his influence on the
>>European community.  If Hammill's fans isolate themselves in a newsgroup
>>of their own, we will not be sharing his music with those who have not
>>heard him.

>	This may be true, and it is the only serious risk I have considered.
>But it also has a purpose of noise reduction with respect to such groups as
>alt.music.progressive - which I read and thoroughly enjoy, of course, but
>tend to be a bit too widespread occasionally.

That is why modern newsreaders are advantageous.  You can filter out the
noise.  To go through >50 newsgroups (for me) including most of the music
groups takes about an hour tops.  I use nn and it filters out about 90%
of the stuff here, giving me more time to do the many things that I've
obligated my time to :)

>>Why not upgrade your newsreader to something that will autoselect
>>headers with keywords like "Hammill" or "VDGG"?

>	This is absolutely true, but you see -- I would never go and fight
>a war, but on the other hand I can't stop the slaughter in Yugoslavia. Just
>to say that some rules, like it or not, *arise* from the fact that we're in
>a usenet community. Either we comply or we get out -- and the only attempt
>to change can come from the inside. Just my opinion, of course.

Maybe this should be added to the FAQ of rec.music.misc....

>>The other problem is that the alt hierarchy doesn't penetrate many sites
>>which have fans of progressive music.  Instead of creating these splinter
>>groups, there are a couple options available:

>[stuff deleted]
>	I'm thinking of a mail list, and very seriously. The only serious
>point is that my system administration may not like the idea... :). If you
>want to start one, I'll give you *every* possible help, be sure.

andyh@cogs (I think the rest was sussex.ac.uk) has offered to create a
"K" list.  Next week (says he) k-request will be active.  He will post (I
assume) to rec.music.misc and the other appropriate places when it comes
up.


>	In any case, the real purpose of this group is not of isolation.
>I mean, if I and you and 50 other friends go to alt.music.progressive and
>start to debate subtle Hammillean an VdGG-related threads, none can tell
>us that we are "misusing" the group, but what we actually do is use it as
>alt.music.peter-hammill or alt.fan.Van-der-Graaf-Generator.

It may not be the purpose, but I'm afraid that many of the readers will
feel that way...

>	My opinion is simple: let's see how it goes for a month or so --
>given time :) to check this, we may plainly decide to remove the group.
>If the discussion is lively and interesting and may attract some new people,
>well -- it will have been a well-done move.

OK.  That sounds fine by me.  

Also, to the user who suggest using gibraltar, that is a good idea--I sent
my subscription request in yesterday.

Has there been any thought of gatewaying gibraltar and alt.music.progressive?
then those who have no access to the alt hierarchy would be able to
participate in alt.music.progressive....

--
jester@crash.cts.com