HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jkim@jingoro.Eng.Sun.COM (Jun Kim)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: rec.arts.comics.manga is anomalous and misleading.
Date: 9 Apr 92 17:43:10 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Mt. View, Ca.
NNTP-Posting-Host: jingoro

In article <awrj5+=@lynx.unm.edu> lazlo@triton.unm.edu (Lazlo Nibble) writes:
[Oops, I deleted the other reference!  Iain Sinclair? maybe?  Sorry if that's
wrong!]
>
>>> since manga are a type of comics ... 
>>
>> Wrong, wrong, wrong.  Comics and manga are as different as boxing and
>> martial arts.  
>
>Goddammit all to hell, "comics" means "PRINTED STORIES TOLD PRIMARILY
>THROUGH VISUAL IMAGERY," not "OVERMUSCLED SUPER-TYPES IN LONG UNDERWEAR
>WHO BEAT UP ON EACH OTHER".  Manga are comics just like boxing is a
>martial art.  *Why* is this so *difficult* for you to *understand*?
>

Please forgive me for being nit-picky but:

The analogy originally associates "comics" to boxing and manga to martial arts,
therefore, to state "boxing is a martial art" is to saying "comics" are
a [subset] of manga.  Secondly, the differences in boxing and martial arts
should be noted.  Martial arts is more of a philosophy than just boxing.
(Well, at least the ones I've studied).  To the casual observer, this
might not be easily recognized, but it is more truth than not.

And yes, I think I know that "comics" are not "OVERMUSCLED SUPER-TYPES IN
LONG UNDERWEAR WHO BEAT UP ON EACH OTHER".  I've been a collector for a
modest 5-6 years, but had to struggle many times to show people the 
different aspects of "comics" (how creative, intelligent they can be, etc).
And I personally don't collect those types of "comics" (although some are
quite good; Miller's DareDevil is my favorite... in case you wanted to know).

I believe the differences between "comics" and "manga" are different from
avoiding association with "OVERMUSCLED SUPER-TYPES IN LONG UNDERWEAR WHO
BEAT UP ON EACH OTHER".  In fact, considering the quality of some of that
genre of "comics" is so good that such an association might even be welcome
(minus the social stereotypes, of course).

Again, it's not that we like something better, it's that we like something
different.


--
Jun Kim                                         jkim@jingoro.Eng.Sun.Com
Sun Microsystems
Mountain View, CA                               "Oboete imasu ka..."
Date: 10 Apr 92 05:37:24 GMT
From: axolotl@socs.uts.edu.au (Iain Sinclair)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: "sequential art forms"  (rec.arts.{comics.}manga)
Reply-To: axolotl@socs.uts.edu.au
Organization: University of Technology, Sydney

wald@theory.lcs.mit.edu (David Wald) writes:
 >Is anyone here using "sequential art forms" to mean movies?  If so,
 >I've misunderstood what you mean by the term.

"Sequential art" could be interpreted as anything from theatre to
calligraphy, depending.  I've no idea what such a general term is
doing in rec.arts.comics'  charter, seeing as it applies equally
to at least seven other newsgroups.


--
Iain Sinclair   axolotl@socs.uts.edu.au                             ne cede.
From: jkim@jingoro.Eng.Sun.COM (Jun Kim)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: The rec.arts.{comics.}manga wars continue
Date: 9 Apr 92 18:56:14 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Mt. View, Ca.
NNTP-Posting-Host: jingoro

In article <-+sjr1@lynx.unm.edu> lazlo@triton.unm.edu (Lazlo Nibble) writes:
>I've bunched together a handful of replies here to save people time.
>
[excerpts delted]

I know that some of you might be interested in this discussion, and might
not have the time to read news.groups.  But please do not read summaries
of the discussion.  I'm not doubting the integrity of Lazlo Nibble, but
he is defending one side vs the other, and I'm sure inevitably a biased
point of view will arise from this.  

So, if you feel this is an important issue, please read the ongoings
on news.groups.  If you do this, we all welcome your vote.

One thing that should be avoided is a flame war in r.a.comics about
topics which belong in news.groups, so maybe these types of posts
should be discouraged in r.a.comics also.  If things need to be discussed,
I feel the proper forum is news.groups.


--
Jun Kim                                         jkim@jingoro.Eng.Sun.Com
Sun Microsystems
Mountain View, CA                               "Oboete imasu ka..."
From: hades@coos.dartmouth.edu (Hades)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.arts.manga vs. rec.arts.comics.manga
Date: 8 Apr 92 15:55:38 GMT
Article-I.D.: dartvax.1992Apr8.155538.21448
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH

>If the group were to be named r.a.comics.manga, we would feel bunched in with
>all the intrinsic meanings of "comics", which as explained, has come to mean,
>on the Net, Western comics. 

    I see we now have someone else who seems to feel that he can speak
for the entire readership of alt.manga. And if you think that you will
feel bunched in, then I feel sorry for you. I can't understand why
people are place so much emphasis on what they think the name means.
There is also the current trend in UseNet to expand the net in depth and
not in width, but that is only a secondary issue.

--
-Hades  (Brian V. Hughes)   | Common Taxpayer Q&A: Q. If I use the 1040 how
 hades@Coos.Dartmouth.Edu   | do I indicate my preference for the Elvis stamp?
 Mac Database Developer     | A. You write THIN ELVIS or FAT ELVIS in the box
 Dartmouth Medical School   | "Spouse's Social Security #." -Dave Barry
From: s3583045@titan.ucc.umass.edu (John Greene)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.music.enya
Date: 9 Apr 92 19:23:12 GMT
Article-I.D.: nic.1992Apr9.192312.14296
Organization: University of Massachusetts, Amherst

In article <frnk.702834223@cs1.bradley.edu> frnk@cs1.bradley.edu (Paul Ondercin) writes:
>
>   I'm not making a mailing list because I don't have the time. 
You hypocrit!  Give us all a f*cking break!  YOU don't have the time?  Maybe
WE don't have (or want to give up) the resources, or the money.  Jesus, if
what's IMPORTANT to you is a place to discuss Enya, MAKE THE TIME to create
a mailing list.

>   And what is the big deal about new groups?
Ugh.... I think we've covered this.

>   	 Frnk! :>

-jg

o
o
 o             
o   +---v      ***********************************************************
 o /@    \_/|  *  And we're all in the bathtub now, making bathtub gin...*
  >  ))     |  ***********************************************************
   \     /^\|  *  s3583045@titan.ucc.umass.edu   *  Lab  (413) 545-0639  *
    ^^^^^      ***********************************************************
From: scs@iti.org (Steve Simmons)
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.arts.manga
Organization: Industrial Technology Institute
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1992 21:05:00 GMT

wald@theory.lcs.mit.edu (David Wald) writes:

>In article <8APR199215101438@vms2.iscs.nus.sg>
>limkiong@vms2.iscs.nus.sg (Twas brillig, and the slithy toves...) writes:

>>if its one level of hierarchy below the newsgroup that discusses
>>Western comics, what else can we infer? Isn't that the whole point of
>>having hierarchies in the first place, so that subcategories can be
>>grouped under a main category?

>The group is currently focused on American and British comics, but I
>know of nothing in its charter that constrains it this way.  Manga are
>within its purview.

A few years back there was active manga discussion in rec.arts.comics.
When alt sprung up, the manga group there drew off most of the discussion.
My impression was that the manga folk left because they didn't want to
have to slog thru the non-manga topics, not that they were offended by
the association with comics.
-- 
 "Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for you are crunchy and taste
  good with ketchup."  seen on a button, author unknown
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: limkiong@vms2.iscs.nus.sg (Twas brillig, and the slithy toves...)
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.arts.manga
Summary:  All for rec.arts.manga
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Keywords:  YES manga
Organization: National University of Singapore Dept. of Computer Sc.
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1992 08:30:00 GMT

Brian V. Hughes mentioned that he wants to see reasons why manga should
not be under rec.arts.comics. Following this discussion as an interested
party, I would like to suggest that he re-reads some of the earlier posts.
Anyway, some of the follow-ups may serve to clarify some of his concerns.
He does seem to be the most vocal anti-r.a.m (or, rather, pro-r.a.c.m).

The arguments for manga to be on the same level of hierarchy (sp?) as
comics is because :

(1) r.a.c discusses US comics
(2) the proposed r.a.m is for discussion of Japanese manga
(3) both are comics, yes. But to have r.a.c.m would be suggesting that
    manga is a subset of US comics. This may be true for translated
    mangas, but is certainly not true for manga as a whole. The group
    will be discussing manga in its native language, and perhaps in
    other languages as well.

As to Mr Hughes' suggestion as to some of the arguments being confused
with respect to r.a.m or r.a.c.m, I would like to add :

(1) r.a.c.manga is appropriate if there is a r.a.c.us
(2) In the absence of such a group, r.a.manga is more appropriate
(3) It is unlikely (and undesirable) to have a r.a.c.us newsgroup

Hence r.a.manga is more appropriate.

Am I correct in assuming that Mr Hughes is not a manga fan(atic)? I'm
not suggesting that manga fans are superior, but that if he has been
exposed to more mangas, he might better appreciate the wish of current
alt.manga readers for a group rec.arts.manga.


Kiong Peng
From: nrc@cbnews.cb.att.com (N. Richard Caldwell)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: The rec.arts.{comics.}manga wars continue
Date: 10 Apr 92 20:33:11 GMT
Organization: AT&T Network Systems  -  Columbus, Ohio

From article <axolotl.702893098@syzygy>, by axolotl@socs.uts.edu.au (Iain Sinclair):
> lazlo@triton.unm.edu (Lazlo Nibble) writes:
>  >		 ________________________________________
>  >		|                                        |
>  >		|       ARTS                             |
>  >		|   ________________  ________________   |
>  >		|  |                \/                |  |
>  >		|  |                /\                |  |
>  >		|  |     COMICS    ( \)  MANGA        |  |
>  >		|  |                \/\               |  |
>  >		|  |________________/\_\______________|  |
>  >		|_______________________\________________|
>  >		                         \
>  >					ART THAT DRAWS FROM
>  >					BOTH TRADITIONS
> 
> Looks good to me!

I think you know very well that lazlo@triton.unm.edu (Lazlo Nibble)
did not write what you have attributed to him above.  I think you owe
him a public apology.  I hope that this was just a clumsy failure to
delete the attribution line.  

"Don't drive too slowly."                 Richard Caldwell
                                          AT&T Network Systems
                                          att!cbnews!nrc
                                          nrc@cbnews.att.com
From: hades@coos.dartmouth.edu (Hades)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: The rec.arts.{comics.}manga wars continue
Date: 15 Apr 92 14:57:23 GMT
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH

tkim@sdcc3.ucsd.edu (Tonghyun Kim) writes:

>In article <1992Apr13.223647.16643@dartvax.dartmouth.edu> hades@coos.dartmouth.edu (Hades) writes:
>>
>>    Ok, fine. I have really had about enough of these assertions that
>>manga are not comic books. What I want to see from people is their
>>definition of manga and their definition of comic books. Then we can
>>really decide if they are different. And remember, no using one to
>>define the other.

>The term "manga" is a very tricky word. In Japan and Korea (pronounced
>MAN-HWA in Korean, but with exactly same chinese characters), the word 
>"manga" is used for anime/animation as well. Anime fans wouldn't use 
>"manga" for anime but non-anime fans (who are the majority of the society) 
>don't distinguish anime from manga; to them they're all manga (manhwa).

    Ok, then if this group is for the discussion of all manga, then why
isn't there a provision in the RFD to remove r.a.anime, since all anime
are indistinguishable from manga?

>So the definition manga = comic is NOT true. Only PRINTED "manga"
>can be called "comic".

    Ok, again. Is this group for the discussion of all manga or only for
printed manga? If the former, please see above, if the latter then since
printed manga can be called "comic" this group should be called
rec.arts.comics.manga.

--
-Hades  (Brian V. Hughes)   | 
 hades@Coos.Dartmouth.Edu   | "DON'T TOUCH IT!! It's the History Eraser
 Mac Database Developer     |  Button, you fool!"  -- Ren
 Dartmouth Medical School   | 
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: sander@engin.umich.edu (Scott D Anderson)
Subject: Re: Um, okay, I did it.
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 92 10:17:05 EDT
Organization: University of Michigan Engineering, Ann Arbor

In article <73751@netnews.upenn.edu> lwl@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Lydia Leong) writes:
>
>>as for the laughable suggestion of r.g.m.tiny... man, you are just about
>>as clueless as they get. the term `tiny' encompasses A LOT when your
>>referr to muds. just leave the `tiny' posts to r.g.m.
>
>The term 'Tiny' encompasses the TinyMUD-derived MUDs, the ones that
>focus on socializing. Basically, this is Tiny/TeenyMUD, MUSH, MUSE,
>MUCK, MOO, MUG, and related things like UnterMUD.
>The types aren't so dramatically different that a rec.games.mud.tiny
>would leave its readers unable to understand each other. Most of the
>Tiny-related postings in this newsgroup relate to social issues, anyway.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

One reason to make it r.g.m.social instead of Tiny... others:
a) as yduJ pointed out, Tiny is archaic and doesnt really describe
the content of so-called 'tiny' posts any longer.

b) I am a firm believer that splitting along lines of server code is
a Bad Idea (tm) as soon you will get every single little derivative
clamoring for its own group (cf. the diku discussion. I really have seen
only a few rabid diku posts, mostly of the nature 'diku rules doodz!'.
none of which are really distinguishable from any other 'adventure' type
posts.) I believe that the lines of the split should be along the
nature of the postings, not the server code behind the players who post.

c) Tiny != social muds. True, many of them are, but you will also see
diku players boasting how social their muds are, and there are quite
a few tiny-derivatives with better-developed rpg systems than most
dikus and LPs. 

d) If people insist on using server code as the distinction for the
split, then consider how very different the various derivatives have
become lately... One glaring example is MOO. MOO is object oriented,
and the entire server is coded mainly in MOO-code, with only the
very basic stuff being done by the actual C program.

So here's my view of How It Should Be:

rec.games.mud.announce (moderated)
rec.games.mud.social
rec.games.mud.adventure (or .rpg) to accomodate the diku players who
   want their own non-social group, and to allow discussions about
   rpg things in general regardless of server type

-- 
CHOOSE          CHEAP                   Scott Anderson
  TWO:         /     \                  sander@engin.umich.edu
              /       \                 Entropy at its finest:
          FAST---------EASY            "Spam, spam, spam! Wonderful SPAM!"
From: hedrick@dumas.rutgers.edu (Charles Hedrick)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: why do we have no votes?
Date: 13 Apr 92 06:34:19 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

I notice that soc.religion.mormon has failed.  I'm worried that this
failure is an abuse of the voting process.  As I understand it, the
purpose of voting is to make sure (1) that there is enough demand to
justify a group and (2) that the way it is implemented is appropriate,
e.g. whether it's moderated, what it's called, etc.  I'm concerned,
based both on the discussion here and on seeing who cast some of the
negative votes, that people voted against it because they dislike
Mormon ideas.  If so, I believe that's an abuse of the voting process.
I've wondered for some time whether it makes sense to have negative
votes.  Suppose every Usenet subscriber voted, and a group got 51% no
vs. 49% yes.  I claim that group should be created.  49% of the people
wanting to read it makes it a pretty popular group.  I think it might
be more sensible to say that if there is no controversy over
implementation, 100 yes votes is all you need, and if there's several
possible implementations, you first vote on the possible
implementations, with the plurality winning, and then do a vote on
whether to create the resulting group.

I have to admit that I voted no on soc.religion.catholic because of
qualms about having a group called catholic with a moderator that many
Catholics did not accept as Catholic.  However I think that could have
been handled by proposing an alternative implementation involving an
unmoderated group, an alternative moderator, or a different name.
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: alok@cbnewsi.cb.att.com (alok.vijayvargia)
Subject: Re: SCIA: The new CFV... is it needed ?
Organization: AT&T
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1992 20:44:06 GMT

In article <92094.112018JLM@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>, JLM@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU writes:
> 
>  There will be a CFV to decide whether S.C.I.A. is officially
> created or not.
> 

> Jose L Martinez

How can there be a CFV because there is no consensus whether a CFV is 
needed  as a result of this new RFD (which by the way is a violation
as explained in my previous post) ?


Furthermore why is the RFD period restricted to seven days ?
Any RFD should be alllowed 30 days.


Disgusted,


Alok
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: frnk@cs1.bradley.edu (Paul Ondercin)
Subject: Re: No New Enya News Group!!
Organization: Bradley University
Distribution: usa
Date:  9 Apr 92 19:32:04 GMT

   I am now convinced. The point about disk space did it.

   I now give up rec.music.enya.

   
   It would have been a lot easier for you to have just explained it this
way, than to have flamed or tried to sidetrack me. Next time, use reason.

	 Frnk! :>
--
_____________________________________________________________________________.
!________Paul Ondercin, owner of "THE MACHINE", a 486 of epic power!__________!
|frnk@bucs1.bradley.edu   frnk@buhub.bradley.edu   frnk@camelot.bradley.edu   |
|frnk@cssun1.bradley.edu  frnk@cssun2.bradley.edu  am417@cleveland.freenet.Edu| 
!_________ponder@heartland.bradley.edu_____________ae198@yfn.ysu.edu__________!
!___Frnkfrnkfrnkfrnkfrnk!!!___|_Just a little penguin that can only say Frnk!_!
!_*YOU* think you've got problems?_Ever worry about being eaten by a walrus?__!
From: gt9398b@prism.gatech.EDU (Christopher Richard Boggs)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: rec.games.mud split
Date: 16 Apr 92 22:14:54 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology


   I think I'm the one who started all this reorganization brewhaha. At least I
was the one who did it this time around, by asking for rec.games.mud.diku. From
there it blossomed. *cringe* It was a harmless suggestion I didnt expect to see
even a reply. I made this post because I am a Co-Imp on a Diku and am Immort
on another. I get sick of Bruce, VSex (although I am not against it) discussionsand other stuff. I'm also sick of the RE: Blah blah blah postings. When 50 folkspost to the group telling someone to shut up, we are making more noise than the guy we are flaming. We made Bruce a celebrity. Anyway......Here're my ideas:

   rec.games.announce - (I agree with the current consensus on this)

   rec.games.mud.lp   - (It already exists and is used. Keep it.)

   rec.games.mud.social - (Used for discussions of social topics related to
                           M*s in general.)

   rec.games.mud.diku - (I'm Co-Imping and creating on Dikus. I'd like a 
                         forum to discuss creation and other Diku topics.)

   rec.games.mud.tiny - (For you Mush, Muck, Moo, Muse, Murpe, etc etc etc
                         Imps. I know you dont wanna hear LP and Diku stuff
                         just the same as we dont wanna hear tiny stuff.)

   rec.games.mud.misc - (For general discussions. And newbie questions as well.)

 
   Someone may ask..."What about Abers?" Well I dont ever remember seeing an
Aber post. Do people still play Abers? *chuckle* I'll be flamed for that one
for sure.
   I think each of the above groups would have enough traffic. I also think 
each of them warrants voting.
   Basically I vote yes on all of the above.
   And I didnt even flame Mud types I dont play, or despise even! *pat Chris*
                                                                
                                                                Chris  
-- 
________________________________________________________________________________InterNet at gt9398b@prism.gatech.edu    or    Balstaff@Arctic & Chris@Adversary
 I love this ****ing school and it loves ****ing me!  -- Tech Student Creed
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Xref: sparky news.groups:10128 news.admin:3550
From: mathew@mantis.co.uk
Newsgroups: news.groups,news.admin
Subject: Re: BENDING THE GUIDELINES IS BAD NEWS
Date: 13 Apr 92 11:58:31 GMT
Organization: Mantis Consultants, Cambridge. UK.

JLM@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU writes:
> he intends to put a provision in the CFV stating that if any
> one of the groups fails then *all* groups fail regardless of
> the votes.

This is very similar to the infamous Question 1 of the rec.arts.sf-lovers
ballot; if that failed, all the other votes were considered to have failed.

The idea was particularly hard for many people to grasp (especially readers
of rec.arts.startrek, poor dears) and was one of the reasons for the
protracted flame-war over the vote.

I'd strongly advise against introducing another "grand reorganization" with
interdependent votes; nobody wants to see another rec.arts.sf-lovers-style
fiasco.


mathew
-- 
Civilization is just a temporary failure of entropy.
From: lazlo@triton.unm.edu (Lazlo Nibble)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: rec.arts.manga...etc.....
Date: 9 Apr 92 16:12:19 GMT
Article-I.D.: lynx.30rjrhf
Organization: Living in a satellite fantasy, waiting for the night to end.

thwang@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Tommy Hwang) writes:

> Maybe I got it wrong, but the discussion over "rec.arts.comics.manga"
> seemed to have created a thought of "rec.arts.anime.animation" in my
> mind.  If it should be rec.arts.comics.manga, then why was it not
> rec.arts.anime.animation for the animation newsgroup?  It did came after
> the anime newsgroup in terms of charter time. 

Where groups belong is not based on where they should be created.  Anime
is a type of animation, so it belongs under rec.arts.animation.  Manga are
a type of comics, so it belongs under rec.arts.comics.

This has been explained several times already.  You might consider
paying attention this time.

--
Lazlo (lazlo@triton.unm.edu)

"Sailboats of ice on desert sand"
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: wald@theory.lcs.mit.edu (David Wald)
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.arts.manga
Organization: Laboratory for Computer Science, MIT
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1992 18:16:49 GMT

In article <44617@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> thwang@mentor.cc.purdue.edu
(Tommy Hwang) writes:
>In article <1992Apr9.140318.2772@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu>
>wald@theory.lcs.mit.edu (David Wald) writes:
>
>>>     However late, okay, but I will cross post AS IS.  No "MANGA" warning
>>>in headers.
...
>     It will have the "Standarized header" as stated.  I just do not
>think that the "Mangas" should all be combined into one subject.

That's fine, as long as there are few enough standard headers, or
standard header components that kill-files can be effectively used.
If these can be stated up-front, things will work even better.

-David
--
============================================================================
David Wald                                           wald@theory.lcs.mit.edu
   "Blessed are the peacocks, for they shall be called sonship of God"
             -- Matt 5:9, from a faulty QuickVerse 2.0
============================================================================
Newsgroups: news.groups