HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: svoboda@rtsg.mot.com (David Svoboda)
Subject: Re: A few questions and observations
Organization: Motorola Inc., Cellular Infrastructure Group
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 22:35:52 GMT

In article <1g6a9aINNkm8@smurf.sti.com> alaric@sti.com (Alaric Tekiahyn) writes:
|
|At the risk of giving offence to purist sport fencers [no offence intended],
|I venture to suggest that in the real world, if your opponent hits you
|before you complete your attack, any discussion of right-of-way is probably
|moot.

Well, only mild offense taken.  :-)  Seriously, though, I think you would find
a more receptive audience among many fencers if you changed your view of sport
fencing just a tad.  See, sport fencing IS the "real world", even moreso than
the game that is played by those who pretend to fight wars.  If you contend
that SCA, or paintball, or BattleTech, or any of the other simulated war
games is "real world", well, I respectfully suggest that your world veiw is
not in accordance with most of your neighbors.

When I fence, I do not make believe that I'm doing anything but fencing.  I 
submit that those who do make believe are fairly rare.  Modern fencing is in
large part a sport, far from any imitation of war arts.  It is in the same 
sense as an olympic javelin thrower is far from a wartime spear-thrower, and 
the tool is different.

|Or, to put it another way:  If your attack leaves you sufficiently open
|to counter-attack that your opponent can continue from his parry of your
|feint into a successful counterstrike before you can complete your own
|attack, then I'd say your attack technique needs some further refinement
|before it's ready for prime time.

In foil and sabre, the right-of-way rules are just that--rules.  They were
developed for reasons of sport.  Epee, on the other hand, has no such
right-of-way rules, and is intended to be a little closer to the combat
art.  But not much.

If I were really trying to kill someone with a sword, you can bet that I
would not be using any rules.  In fact, if I wanted to kill someone, I would
not be likely to use a sword.  An AK-47 is considerable more direct and
to the point.  (Pun intended. :-)

				Dave Svoboda
From: mece25r@jane.uh.edu (Palit, Suman)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
Subject: Re: Striking force of thrusts/cuts
Date: 16 Dec 1992 18:17 CST
Organization: University of Houston
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: jane.uh.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    

In article <BzB0HD.C2t@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>, burdickd@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Dakin Burdick) writes...
>I base most of my opinions in this matter on an old Scientific
>American article on the physics of breaking with karate techniques.

	{intresting stuff deleted }

> 
>cuts are more powerful than thrusts
>cuts are easier to avoid than thrusts
>thrusts are easier to parry than cuts (assuming the opponent is
>larger than you)
>thrusts do more damage than cuts (assuming the target is the 
>body; because thrusts can pierce internal organs much easier)
> 
>What do you think?
> 
>Dakin
>burdickd@silver.ucs.indiana.edu


Also, a cut is unlikely to damage any vital organ, since they are protected
from a slicing cut by the skeletal framework. To deliver a single killing
blow would indeed require a thrust to the heart, rather than a cut to it.

A cut is easier to avoid simply because the movement is telegraphed in 
advance to a much greater degree than a thrust. 

Also, it seems to me, that a thrust requires a different parry depending
on where it originates from, and where it's pointing towards your body. 
In comparison, all cuts to the head (for example) really have only
*one* parry. Another probable reason why cuts are easier to defend against...
I'd take a rapier to a cavalry sabre any day..:-) 

Just my $0.02 worth

Suman Palit
mece25r@jetson.uh.edu
From: fxlof@camelot.acf-lab.alaska.edu (Liam O Forbes)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
Subject: historical perspective
Date: 14 Dec 92 21:47:04 GMT
Reply-To: fxlof@camelot.acf-lab.alaska.edu
Organization: University of Alaska Computer Network

In article <1992Dec13.215912.27547@news.uiowa.edu>  
rcnelson@icaen.uiowa.edu (Ryan Christian Nelson) writes:

> I suppose that, in order to keep historical perspective, 

	This in no way is related to the post I pulled it from.
	How many of you feel there is or should be a connection between  
what is now fencing and it's overall goal's (whatever you view those as)  
and the historical use of the blade as a weapon?  It seems many  
'discussions' (and flames) come from comparisons of now and yesteryears.   
Why?  
	Should we who use modern techniques (or techniques culled from  
past fencers/shools) worry whether or not those techniques would actually  
work for us in an actual dual?  (Example:  Is the whippy attack a valid  
move?  It probably would have scratched an unarmed opponent who then would  
have a bit of time to set up an attack that could skewer you.  In fact  
would the whippy technique have even worked with the blades of the time?)  
Or should we be concentrating on the competitive aspect of modern fencing  
wherein the best is the guy who can win the most and biggest tournaments  
as opposed to the guy who may be able to kill the first guy but not beat  
him in a tournament style given actual duelling (or even battling)  
weapons?  E-mail and posted responces would be great.  Who knows, I may  
turn this into some sort of formal/informal paper someday.  -Liam
fxlof@camelot.acf-lab.alaska.edu
From: markk@pongo.West.Sun.COM (Mark Allen Kampe)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
Subject: GROUP - use of keywords in titles
Date: 18 Dec 1992 19:51:28 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems
Distribution: world
Reply-To: markk@pongo.West.Sun.COM
NNTP-Posting-Host: pongo.west.sun.com

If such a convention is to be adopted, it should be put into the intro and
FAQ file.  As to people using it ... if alot of people start using it, others
will catch on ... and others won't.

Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
From: kevin@mpls911.uucp (Kevin Herrboldt)
Subject: Re: fencing injuries
Organization: City of Minneapolis Emergency Communications
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 22:37:37 GMT

I suffered a potentially serious injury as a fluke.  I was wearing full
protective gear, but had an UNBROKEN foil point go into the crook of my
sword arm.  I kept fencing until the blood soaked through the jacket,
which is when I realized the true nature of the injury.  The doctor who
gave me my stitches said the puncture missed a major artery by millimeters.

The scary thing is, the jacket didn't tear (it was practically new).  I
was just a victim of a simultaneous attack, and my opponent's blade didn't
bend like it was supposed to.

There are risks associated with fencing.  Be safe, but accept them.  I'd think
fencing is less deadly than, say, downhill skiing...

-- 
Kevin Herrboldt                                                 kevin@mpls911
Emergency Communications Center                     ...!mishima!mpls911!kevin
City Hall Room B-911, Mpls, MN  55415
(612) 348-7216
Organization: Pittsburgh Supercomputing Center, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 00:55:23 -0500 
From: Jamshid Mahdavi <jm3q+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: cross training for fencing


Being both a juggler and a fencer, I can't really argue.  On the other
hand I can't really say that one has done serious good for the other, 
either.  When I seriously want to get back in shape for fencing, though,
I start swimming laps; I find it adds a lot to my endurance and general
ability to win bouts by tiring people out.  Especially with these best of
three, win by two, up to 99 touches deals they do now...

--J
From: jesup@cbmvax.commodore.com (Randell Jesup)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
Subject: Re: electric sabre scoring?
Date: 18 Dec 92 03:33:39 GMT
Reply-To: jesup@cbmvax.commodore.com (Randell Jesup)
Organization: Commodore, West Chester, PA

damon@netcom.com (Damon Scaggs) writes:
>The only rule change is the removal of off-target.  There is no more
>off-target calls in sabre.  Any cut that does not hit valid target is
>considered no.  I find this to be a relatively minor change.

	What about point hits?  I used to make use of those from time to time -
it could confuse someone (at least not-horribly-experienced people or those
that didn't start or do enough foil) when you suddenly started at them with
a point, as they would wildly do windshield-wiper parries as you disengaged.
(Since few sabre attacks come up from below, unless they know foil their
reactions can be all wrong.)  

	As I understand it, with those sensors you have to make some sort of
cutting motion to get a light.  True?

-- 
To be or not to be = 0xff
-
Randell Jesup, Jack-of-quite-a-few-trades, Commodore Engineering.
{uunet|rutgers}!cbmvax!jesup, jesup@cbmvax.cbm.commodore.com  BIX: rjesup  
Disclaimer: Nothing I say is anything other than my personal opinion.
From: alaric@sti.com (Alaric Tekiahyn)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
Subject: Re: Cleaning the uncleanable:
Date: 12 Dec 1992 01:21:51 GMT
Organization: Software Transformation, Inc.
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: smurf.sti.com

In article <10DEC199216242161@rosie.uh.edu>, mece25r@rosie.uh.edu (Palit, Suman) writes:
] 
] Anybody out there know how to clean leather gloves, particularly the really
] soft foil varieties? How about lames? I've tried cleaning mine with a soft
] cloth and the mildest dishwashing soap around, then drying it in the sun on
] a deck-chair or something flat. Doesn't work for the really big stains, though

In a word (OK, three words):

	Try saddle soap.

(Trust me.  I'm a saddler, among other things.)

For the gloves, my recommended technique is:
	(1)	Put the gloves on.
	(2)	Wearing the gloves, wash your hands with saddle soap.
		(Use warm water, but NOT hot.)
	(3)	Keep the gloves on until they're completely dry.


-- 
      "Eternal vigilance is the price of freedom."  --  Thomas Jefferson
    ......................................................................
    Phil Stracchino : phils@sti.com : alaric@sti.com : The Renaissance Man
      PGP 2.0 - Freeware public-key data encryption.  Get it and use it!
           Finger alaric@sti.com for PGP 2.0 info and my public key
From: jesup@cbmvax.commodore.com (Randell Jesup)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
Subject: Re: Recruiting (was re: Fencing as a sport)
Date: 10 Dec 92 01:23:21 GMT
Reply-To: jesup@cbmvax.commodore.com (Randell Jesup)
Organization: Commodore, West Chester, PA

goble@hardy.u.washington.edu (Brian Goble) writes:
>About 2 years ago, we held a public demo at an Activity Fair and our demo
>was the biggest attraction at the fair yet only about 4 people came to our
>club after the demo.
>
>But, this year we put up flyers all over campus and had over 30 people 
>show up for the first club meeting.  (That's a ton of people to our small
>club :)

	Do both.  The demos expose people to it, the flyers entice them to
actually show up.  These are synergistic.  When I was in the RPI club the
fall activities demo usually brought in a fair number of people (hell, that's
how I got into it, though I'd had a semester of foil back in 9th grade in NYC).

-- 
To be or not to be = 0xff
-
Randell Jesup, Jack-of-quite-a-few-trades, Commodore Engineering.
{uunet|rutgers}!cbmvax!jesup, jesup@cbmvax.cbm.commodore.com  BIX: rjesup  
Disclaimer: Nothing I say is anything other than my personal opinion.
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
From: alaric@sti.com (Alaric Tekiahyn)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
Subject: Re: Maraging blades
Date: 12 Dec 1992 01:17:25 GMT
Organization: Software Transformation, Inc.
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: smurf.sti.com

In article <1992Dec9.190503.22312@pslu1.psl.wisc.edu>, uzgiris@whitewater.chem.wisc.edu (Jim Uzgiris) writes:
] The whole problem makes one thing obvious to me. The popularity of battle  
] axes as the backup weapon in the middle ages is not just a coincidence.  
] Swords break!

It's interesting to note, in this regard, that it took quite a while for
the first iron weapons to displace bronze.  While an iron sword could be
made longer and sharper than a bronze one, early iron swords had a rather
distressing tendency to snap in the heat of battle...

] Also, the use of  
] bokken by some of the best swordsmen in Japan during life-or-death duels  
] against katana doesn't seem so weird anymore.

OK, now here you're making a serious misconception.  The Japanese katana
is considered by most swordmakers to be the finest expression of the
swordmaker's art that the world has ever seen.  There is *no* record of
any blade forged by Masamune, for instance, ever breaking.  *EVER*.

(Don't ever make the mistake of judging Japanese swords by the cheap-shit
mass-produced military rubbish that Japan turned out during WWII, or by
the scarcely better things that are now mass-produced for the 'benefit'
of gullible amateur collectors who don't know the difference.  Comparing
any of these to, say, the Five Swords Under Heaven is like comparing a
dime-store rhinestone brooch to the English Crown Jewels.)


Now in the case of Musashi, arguably the greatest Japanese swordsman
who ever lived, his motive for using a bokken in his last seventeen
duels is known.  Very simply, after the 72 men he'd already killed
in duels using a katana, it had gotten too easy.  So he killed the
next 17 with a bokken.

(And then, if memory serves, he retired, shaved his head, and lived out
the rest of his life as a Buddhist monk.)


-- 
      "Eternal vigilance is the price of freedom."  --  Thomas Jefferson
    ......................................................................
    Phil Stracchino : phils@sti.com : alaric@sti.com : The Renaissance Man
      PGP 2.0 - Freeware public-key data encryption.  Get it and use it!
           Finger alaric@sti.com for PGP 2.0 info and my public key
From: markk@pongo.West.Sun.COM (Mark Allen Kampe)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
Subject: Amusing Fencers (was: A fencing life)
Date: 16 Dec 1992 15:49:55 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems
Distribution: world
Reply-To: markk@pongo.West.Sun.COM
NNTP-Posting-Host: pongo.west.sun.com

I remember Carlos (Dancing Bear) Fuertes very well.  His flamboyant
style was a delight to watch ... although I do not recall having the
same appreciation when fencing him.  He had a very fast hand, and
came on strong.

This reminds me of a Southern California Epeeist, Ivan Varadi.  His
style was far more comical than Carlos, and he often made me laugh
even while fencing him.  One of his favorite tricks was to lay his
blade (guard and tip) flat on the piste, feign a bad leg and whimper.
He would get more and more pitiful until you had no choice but to
attack him.  Needless to say, he was ready for it.  Throughout the
bout he would be performing physical comedy routines.  First timers
in competition thought he was making fun of them.  People with
a little more experience just found fencing Ivan to be alot of fun.

He is one of the few people who I have had more fun losing to than 
beating (which I only did infrequently).
From: markk@pongo.West.Sun.COM (Mark Allen Kampe)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
Subject: Re: Computer games?
Date: 14 Dec 1992 16:03:54 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems
Distribution: world
Reply-To: markk@pongo.West.Sun.COM
NNTP-Posting-Host: pongo.west.sun.com

In article 22400@sfu.ca, forman@fraser.sfu.ca (Pamela Catherine Forman) writes:
>But for the ultimate in computer "fencing" one must experience the
>sword-play in Monkey Island (I, not II).  Of the very few failed
>attempts that I have seen fencing tried on (any) computer, Monkey
>Island has the best by far!

It must have taught you everything you know :-)




Organization: Sophomore, H&SS general, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 13:00:02 -0500 
From: Randy M Bruno <rb6b+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Left vs Right Handness

Excerpts from netnews.rec.sport.fencing: 14-Dec-92 Re: Left vs Right
Handness by Jeff Berry@ylum.cgd.ucar 
>Well, the Urban Myth (or SCA Myth) that I heard was that Tivar Moondragon
>had a mask collapsed by a pistol-gripped blade, and that was the cause of the
>"safety" clause in the prohibition.
> 
>For non-SCA folk, Master Tivar is the SCA-wide Marshallate Deputy in Charge
>of Period Fencing.

    I had a fencing mask collapsed by a wiry 13 year-old kid who was
using a foil with a french grip. A foil flexes a hell of a lot more than
an epee, and a french handle by no means allows as much power as a
pistol grip. Don't worry though: I'm not about to make an argument like
"Should we ban french grips, too (or foil blades or wiry 13 year-olds)?"
    Rather, I would like to make one simple point: The mask I was using
had been in our fencing club for what I suppose was at least 8 years,
already beyond a safe life expectancy. If the myth is true, it is more
likely that his mask was old and unsafe (wouldn't stand up to a mask
punch test) or was new but defective. (I've noticed that a few Santelli
masks made recently can't pass the punch test.)

Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
From: penfold@rock.concert.net (Patricia A White -- Oxford University Press -- MIS)
Subject: Re: crosstraining and weight training
Organization: CONCERT-CONNECT -- Public Access UNIX
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 20:28:01 GMT

I've never tried it but maybe in-line-skating, aka Rollerblading, (to
and from the salle! ;-) might be a decent workout.  I imagine it would
strengthen the ankles if nothing else.  Is there anybody who's a bit
more knowledgeable about the subject?

-Patricia
 penfold@rock.concert.net
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Those who know that they are profound strive for clarity.  Those who would
like to seem profound to the crowd strive for obscurity."  --Nietzsche
From: jane@soave.swdc.stratus.com (Jane Beckman)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
Subject: Re: French Grips
Date: 16 Dec 92 02:37:16 GMT
Organization: Stratus Computer, Inc., San Jose, CA

>
>It is an artificial comparison.  Why on earth would a foilist take on
>some guy with a broadsword?  Even a real duelling weapon like epee presumes
>that if some guy came at you with a broadsword, you're best response would
>be to shoot him.  

Wow, my worst nightmare just came back to haunt me.  The time
I watched an idiot come at a guy with a foil with a Cavalry
sabre.  We had been doing a '20's party, and were having
fencing combat on the lawn, with foils.  Well, the guy who had
been charging around on horseback, earlier, dressed up in a
bedspread as The Shiek decided to join us.  With a cry of "En
Garde" he suddenly lept into the fray, and attacked one of the
foilists with his cavalry sabre.  My friend with the foil was
enough of a reflexive idiot to try to defend, rather than just
getting the hell out of there.  I had visions of broken foils
and spitted livers.  Yelling "HOLD!" at full bellow, I stepped
between them from the side, knocking both blades in the air.
The Shiek was pissed as hell, and kept saying "I was in full
control of my blade!  What's *your* problem?!"  And I yelled
right back about safety, unequal matches, and all this, being
pretty mad, myself.

I say we should have just shot him and saved the trouble.  ;-)

Seriously, though, if you're ever doing informal fencing,
beware of the Yahoo Factor. 

--
  Jilara   [jane@swdc.stratus.com]

"The field of pseudo-science hasn't progressed much in ten
years, except to gain access to the net." --from ca.earthquakes
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
From: klosky@chavez.Colorado.EDU ( Ledlie Klosky )
Subject: Striking force of thrusts/cuts
Reply-To: klosky@chavez.Colorado.EDU (KLOSKY JAMES LEDLIE )
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 05:58:34 GMT

[Morgan Burke reasserts that a thrust has a whole body of mass behind 
it and a cut does not]

I am not certain that I agree with this.  With a properly executed
cut or thrust, you feel the shock down to your toes.  Of course,
in SCA or sport fencing, no-one goes for full power.  Although,
I cannot claim that I have never struck hard enough to shake 
the earth (when you feel it in your toes) with both cuts and
thrusts.  The point is, when done "correctly", either a thrust 
or a cut can transfer a persons momentum to another person.
You could never cut down a tree with just the momentum of an ax
head, you gotta put your shoulders into it.

However, upon reflection, I believe that the strongest blows
that I have given or received have all come from 2-handed
spear thrusts.  Perhaps a thrust delivers _more_ of your body mass
than a cut, but I am unwilling to believe that NO body mass
goes into the momentum of a cut.

Any other SCA types out there with an opinion on what weapon hits
hardest?

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Ledlie Klosky					klosky@ucsu.colorado.edu
Boulder, CO					klosky@bechtel.colorado.edu
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
In this group, it pays to get to the point quickly!
From: randerson@cudnvr.denver.colorado.edu (Brownbeard)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
Subject: books on fencing, sword fighitng, . . .
Date: 18 Dec 92 16:22:08 GMT

I have seen an number of references to assorted books and texts on sword
fighting and fencing. Since I am not only a fencer, but and avid book
reader/collector I would be interesterd in finding out 1) if any of you have
particular books that you would recommend and 2) if you have any suggested
sources. I haunt used book stores all the time, but it is rare that i find any
in these areas, so I'd appreciate you r help 9that is if you are willing to
give away your secret sources  :-) 
I'm happy to pass on the one I have (I purchased several relatively modern
texts from tham a year or two ago): The Blu Dragon Book shop in Ashland, Or. If
People are interested I'll look up their address and phone #.

Eric
-- 

================================ Eric H. Anderson ==============================
Net Access courtesy of                |   RANDERSON@CUDENVER
Prof. Richard Anderson, CU Denver     |   RANDERSON@CUDNVR.DENVER.COLORADO.EDU
================= Here, have a clue.   Take two, they're small. ================
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
From: ian@chaos.cs.brandeis.edu (Xiphias Gladius)
Subject: Re: Single Stick
Organization: Brandeis University
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 14:44:57 GMT

Probably, I shouldn't be wasting bandwith speaking on something I know
nothing about ;) . . . 
	If I remember correctly, singlestick is a martial art form
involving *two* sticks, one in each hand.  I could, of course, be
wrong . . . it seems rather silly.
		- Ian

Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
From: schuldy@progress.COM (Mark Schuldenfrei)
Subject: Re: Broadsword fencing - StageFighting
Organization: Progress Software Corp.
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 18:54:15 GMT

David Svoboda writes:

[ Long story about potentially abusive SCA fight training, and low
  skill fighting technique, deleted ]

  This impression of SCA fighting I thought was just a singular bad
  experience.  But I hear similar stories from other people.  I don't
  doubt there are people serious about SCA fighting.  But there are
  also definitely jerks like I met, "whackos" who like to hit each
  other with sticks, and helpless strangers, with sticks.

When I joined the SCA, I joined for the dancing and the fun, and the
women.  I thought the fighting looked stupid.  Nonetheless, after a
year or so, I went to our local fighting practice, to learn a thing
or two.

My experience was quite different from yours, David.  I was trained in
walking, carrying equipment, blocks and defensive work.  Attacks against
pells (stationary targets).  It wasn't a "science", but it was careful,
and non-sadistic.

Sadly, the SCA does not have standards for who may train new fighters,
and who may not.  Sounds like you met some real losers.  Please, however,
do not tar all with that same brush: it doesn't fairly apply.

	schuldy (Tibor in the SCA)
--
Mark Schuldenfrei (schuldy@progress.com)
[I'm just showin' you my opinions: this ain't a gift]
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing