HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mike@gordian.com (Michael A. Thomas)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Twice Fucked (Colorado gays)
Date: 10 Nov 92 18:59:41 GMT
Organization: Gordian; Costa Mesa, CA

In article <1992Nov10.163430.10754@panix.com>, mara@panix.com (Mara Chibnik) writes:
> 
> Jeff Shaumeyer and Bob Donahue argue that CO-2 is bad enough that 
> even though OR-9 would have been "worse," that's effectively a
> distinction without a difference.
> 
> Andrew M. Solovay disagrees with them and is being flamed on
> that account.  I think that I posted something about OR-9's
> worseness a few days ago, and nobody has flamed me for it (yet).
> 
> CO-2 is *bad*, and I make no mistake about it.  But it doesn't
> require teaching school children that homosexuality is a perversion,
> and it allows the possibility that an openly gay schoolteacher might
> even stay in that job.  I think there's a measurable difference.
> 
> I also agree that this is war.  I think that there are weapons
> capable of different degrees of destruction, and that these are two
> different kinds of weapons.  The people wielding them are our
> enemy.  No doubt about it.  Does that mean that we can't distinguish
> between them?

  Actually the difference is palpable. CO2 amends the constitution
barring anti-discrimination laws on the basis of sexuality (well,
"perverse" sexuality to be exact) whereas M9 did the same and
went on to declare that homosexuality is "abnormal and perverse" -- 
a moral proclaimation. 
  CO2 is merely hypocritical (some minorities are afforded protection,
whereas others are singled out for non-protection) whereas M9
self righteously proclaims its disgust as well as various remedies.
  I think that CO2 is far easier for people to rationalize since
they probably have some reservations about the concept of "protected
classes" in the first place. The thought of taking the high ground
and saying that they are morally superior, which was the case of
M9, is somewhat more difficult to swallow though.
  For me, it took a while to sort this out though. (Actually,
it was the signing of AB2601 that propogated out this decision)
In general I think that anti-discrimination laws, as a class, are
a bad idea. On the face it would seem that supporting CO2 would be
in order. However, looking at it from a global standpoint one notices
that CO2 does *not* address that question, and as such would make it
even more difficult to eventually repeal these laws en toto. This is
the reason why I now support them meekly: if you are going to have 
them at all, they might as well be consistant to their principle.
 
> And how come nobody thought of flaming _me_, huh?  (Oh, sorry;
> that's a different thread.)

  Mara doesn't get flamed. It's in the Charter.
-- 

		Michael Thomas	(mike@gordian.com)
	"I don't think Bambi Eyes will get you that flame thrower..."  
		-- Hobbes to Calvin
		USnail: 20361 Irvine Ave Santa Ana Heights, Ca,	92707-5637
		PaBell: (714) 850-0205 (714) 850-0533 (fax)
From: mattm@apple.com (Matthew Melmon)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Sucking on Keanu Reeves
Date: 12 Nov 92 21:38:41 GMT
Followup-To: soc.motss
Organization: Apple Computer, Inc.

Taken from the Wall Street Journal:

  Poor Jonathan (Keanu Reeves) spends most of his time
  in the count's Transylvanian castle, having his
  blood drained by a trio of nympho-vampires...

Now, if *this* nympho had Keanu Reeves strapped up in a 
Transylvanian castle, his *blood* would not be the relevant
bodily fluid being drained...

I hadn't been playing on seeing Dracula - but this has 
certainly changed my mind.  Though I hated the movie (to be
honest, I didn't even finish it...), I though Reeves was
positively *yummy* in Private Idaho.  Of course, so was
Phoenix.  

To *die* for...

*X*
(Did I tell you, Dear Squirrel, about the Muffin's story -
wherein he was tied up by some bimbos in San Diego and
forced to do unspeakable things?  I think I did...  Oh, just
thinking about him all strapped down and naked, squirming
around, legs spread apart....  ARGHGHGHGHGHGH!!!

I want to go home *right* *now*!)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: grendal@iat.holonet.net (Grendal)
Subject: Re: Halloween
Organization: HoloNet (BBS: 510-704-1058)
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 07:01:29 GMT

bcapps@agora.rain.com (Brent Capps) writes:
: I've always wanted to get together with 12 friends and do the Last Supper
: tableau.  Let's see, that's 12 bread, 12 wine, 15% gratuity for parties
: over 8...
Hmmm...great minds think alike. Some friends and I got together for
this year's Halloween in the Castro and decided to go as the Last Supper.
(We told people we were actually the Last Brunch because we were two
apostles short.) Judas made a fair amount selling Jesus to bystanders.
From: pentangl@spdcc.com (Scott Moir)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: What to do about Colorado
Date: 5 Nov 92 01:50:30 GMT
Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting, Cambridge MA

In article <1d9fj6INNg2i@marvin.solbourne.com> gerber@solbourne.com (Andrew Gerber) writes:
>In article <1992Nov4.095755.27050@resonex.com> michael@resonex.com (Michael Bryan) writes:
>>
>:I encourage every single one of you to take this as an opportunity
>:to come out to your friends, family and coworkers.  Tell them how
>:you are outraged that this could happen.  Perhaps it will even be
>:possible to shame those who voted for the amendment, so that a
>:future vote might turn out differently.  Scary?  You bet!  As a
>:result of this, your employer could fire you just because you tell
>:him you're gay.  But if you can tell others, do it!  If you already
>:have, wonderful!

More than ever we need to raise our visiblity. If Mabon is coming back
in a year or two with more slickly written hatred, we will need to show
Mr & Mrs Average that it isn't some distant problem. We have to let them
know what -one- exception to discrimination means. It endangers them, as
well as us.

[Encouraging email traffic deleted]

>So, as you can see, I am blessed with a very positive work
>environment.  Colorado has a long way to go from today to remove the
>awful stain #2 has put on us.  I'm not going to run away; I'm staying
>here to fight.  

[]"Words are not heard, so cymbals and drums are made. Owing to lack of[]
[]visibility, banners and flags are made." Cymbals, drums, banners, and[]
[]flags are used to focus and unify the people's ears and eyes. Once   []
[]people are unified, the brave cannot proceed alone, and the timid    []
[]cannot retreat alone-- this is the rule for employing a group.       []
[]                                  - Sun Tzu  _The Art of War_        []

Get out there and show yourselves.

Scott

-- 
Scott Moir  /  Satyr on IRC    ______ # "There's really only one requirement 
pentangl@Ursa-Major.spdcc.com  \ \/ / #  for a Prophet, and you've got it."
B4 f t+ w g k+(+!) s+ m r p+    \/\/  # "What's that?"
These are my opinions, not SPDCC's    # "A mouth." - 'God' to J.R.'BoB' Dobbs
From: anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: What I'm doing
Date: 8 Nov 92 13:38:46 GMT
Organization: Madison Academic Computing Center, UW-Madison


In article <9211061732.AA19932@katbea.YP.attc>
katbea@katbea.Auto-trol.COM (Kathy Beatty) writes:

]Well, I did it yesterday.  At Auto-trol's quarterly
]corporate meeting, I asked Howard Hillman, the president of
]the company, (in front of about 300 people some of whom I
]know to be hostile) "Is the passage of Amendment 2 here in
]Colorado in any way going to effect Auto-trols' EEO Policy?"

][really inspiring story, and as I read it, a singularly
] courageous action ...]

Brava to the 13th power, Kathy.  You make me feel really
good about our folks out there on the front line, sticking
their necks right out.  I really couldn't overstate my
admiration for you.

]Well, that's where it stands now.  I will let you know
]what's happening as events unfold.  Personally, I feel much
]better now that I have actively done something to combat
]amendment 2.  My depression is being replaced with a cold
]and steely determination to fight this thing to the end.

Steely determination is exactly what it takes, too.

]One thing to remember - the passage of Amendment 2 is not
]the end, it is just the beginning of the struggle.

Is it ever!

-- 
Jess Anderson <> Madison Academic Computing Center <> University of Wisconsin
Internet: anderson@macc.wisc.edu <-best, UUCP:{}!uwvax!macc.wisc.edu!anderson
Room 3130 <> 1210 West Dayton Street / Madison WI 53706 <> Phone 608/262-5888
<>  <>  <> Discrimination, Bigotry, and Hate are not Family Values <>  <>  <>
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: his@the-temple.East.Sun.COM (Howard Solomon - SunExpress Support Engineer)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Leftists Under Every Shrub (Re: Social Democracy)
Date: 9 Nov 1992 14:22:45 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems
Distribution: world
Reply-To: his@the-temple.East.Sun.COM
NNTP-Posting-Host: the-temple.east.sun.com

In article 92Nov6150448@luciano.Stanford.EDU, robertl@luciano.Stanford.EDU (Robert Lodenkamper) writes:
>In article <1992Nov6.134936.20759@macc.wisc.edu>
>anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson) writes: 
>
>   In article <19921106003718ECL4JN2@MVS.OAC.UCLA.EDU>
>   ECL4JN2@MVS.OAC.UCLA.EDU (Jack B. Nimble) writes:
>
>   >If you really want a quintessential example of Uncle Tomism,
>   >you need only look in this newsgroup at the various
>   >apologists for Clinton's past record of homophobic inaction
>   >in his stint as governor of Arkansas.
>
>   I haven't seen any apologies for Clinton's record as governor
>   of Arkansas here.  Have you?  When and by whom?
>
>One wonders which part of "Hold your nose and vote for Bill" is
>unclear.
>
>- Bob

Bob:

As the originator of the phrase (which no longer needs to be in my subject
line!), I think we have a problem with semantics here.  I certainly have 
no intention of apologizing for Clinton's record.  I merely cannot 
enthusiastically support it (and for reasons other than his record on 
gay issues -- the environment and the chicken interests comes to mind, and
there are others ...) Clinton, to me, came down as the infinitely least 
of three evils once the general election rolled around.  Also, I would
rather deal with a Clinton cabinet and court system than that of the 
other two.  My previously posted comment by Barney Frank about Dukakis in
'88 also holds.  This is a man who will at listen to us and then decide.
In a Bush (or I believe Perot) White House, we still would not exist.

Howard

---
========================================================================
Howard I. Solomon			|ELECTION '92
Software Support Engineer, SunExpress	|Say goodnight, George.
his@east.sun.com			|
=========================================================================

Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.politics.homosexuality,co.politics
From: gary@colossus.cgd.ucar.edu (Gary Strand)
Subject: Re: Colorado Amendment 2: The First Fatality
Organization: Climate and Global Dynamics Division/NCAR, Boulder, CO
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 17:57:20 GMT

ck> Charles Kirby
ck> Charles Kincy
gs> Gary Strand

  See the difference above? Unfortunately, we have two people with very sim-
  lar names here. 
  
  "ck" can be either Charles Kirby, ckirby@jpl-devvax.jpl.nasa.gov, or Charles
  Kincy, ckincy@mcs213c.cs.umr.edu. Please read carefully.

  In this article, it's Charles Kirby.

ck> I'm sorry, but you have chosen the wrong contestant.  While I'm sure I 
    probably wholeheartedly agree with anything anyone has to say (as long as
    it's contrary to what you say),  

  Charles Kirby is a fine human being.

  I suppose then, that someone who calls you an immature jerk receives your
  wholehearted agreement.

  Try again.

--
Gary Strand                      Opinions stated herein are mine alone and are
strandwg@ncar.ucar.edu            not representative of NCAR, UCAR, or the NSF
From: patrick@actrix.gen.nz (Pat Cain)
Subject: New Zealand gay/AIDS discrim. bill
Organization: Actrix BBS, Wellington, New Zealand
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 23:30:01 GMT

Within the next two weeks it's expected a bill will be tabled in
parliament in New Zealand seeking to ban discrimination against
gays and those with HIV. It's part of the human rights act.
A similar clause in the 1986 Homosexual Law Reform bill failed
back then.  But recent public opinion polls show close to 80%
of the population support the bill so presumably it will be passed.

It will be a conscience vote meaning politicians can vote
according to how they feel.  Some have said the bill that
has been introduced by Associate Health Minister Katherine O'Regan
is an attempt to swing voters in the Wellington Central by-election
(Wellington Central statistically is the most well-educated
electorate in the country).  The by-election has been forced
by Fran Wilde (who introduced the 1986 reform bill) resigning
to take the Wellington mayorality.  Fran Wilde received
strong support from voters throughout the community because
of her part in the 1986 reforms.

-- 
Pat Cain, PO Box 2060, Wellington, NZ  ()  em: cain_p@kosmos.wcc.govt.nz
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: timf@microsoft.com (Tim Fleehart)
Subject: Re: Colorado Cesspool
Date: 08 Nov 92 02:22:07 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corporation

In article <5216@calmasd.Prime.COM> wlp@calmasd.Prime.COM (Walt  Peterson) writes:
>I fully intend to check EVERY purchase I make in the future to
>determine that I am not knowingly sending one red cent to Colorado.

Likely they won'y notice this, there being a US mint in Denver which cranks
them out by the millions... :-)

Tim
From: phi@sage.cc.purdue.edu (Aeleck)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: ***Accessories!!!***
Date: 11 Nov 92 01:54:11 GMT
Article-I.D.: mentor.BxJ3yC.16u
Organization: Purdue University Computing Center

In article <michaelh.721444419@Xenon.Stanford.EDU> michaelh@Xenon.Stanford.EDU (Mike Hennahane) writes:
>thaaang@cwis.unomaha.edu (John Dorrance) writes:
>>What's your favorite kind? Handbags? Belts? Shoes? Watches? Jewelry?
>>Any favorite pieces?
>i guess that i will get my queer card revoked, but i rarely wear any
>accessories at all.  i have no piercings of any kind, almost never
>wear the only watch i own, and have no other jewelry.  eek.  i *do*
>have belts and shoes, though.
>--mike

This is awful!  Ok, hand it over.  From this point on, you are no longer a
queer.  You are not allowed to join in on any queer activities, or games.

Again, he asked for it.  :)


Patrick                                      /  
                      /          /          /        
     __      __    __/_  _          __     /         
    /  \    /  \    /   / \    /   /  \   / \        "If you're not having
   /   /   /   /   /   /  /   /   /      /\_/         fun, you're doing some-
  /\__/\__/\__/\__/\__/   \__/\__/\___/ /   \__/      thing wrong." -Patrick
 /
/           "Hate is not a family value.  Boycott Colorado" 
                                       -Melinda Shore(shore@tc.cornell.edu)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: jrd@frame.com (James Drew)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: What to do about Colorado
Date: 9 Nov 1992 20:36:04 -0600
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

Some people have suggested firing heterosexual employees as a means of standing
out against the amendment, but of course that contributes perhaps more to other
problems than it does it does to solving this one.

Here's a possiblity:

	Advertise for a position in the Help Wanted ads, and include in the
	ad somethings to the effect of "Due to the recent passage of CO-2,
	heterosexuals need not apply," and see if you get any nibbles in
	terms of threatened lawsuits or whatever.

To get around laws forbidding you from advertising a non-existant job, you
might need to do something special (actually offer a job, or offer it at
minimum wage, for example, so no one will actually take it).

Once such a lawsuit has been threatened, legal groups will be quicker to act
on the case.

Just a thought, and I don't know if it's a good one.

------------------------------
                             |     There were people everywhere, wearing bits
Jim Drew                     | of leather... clothing not even Hollywood could
jrd@frame.com                | dream up.
(Furry: Randy Puritan)       |     "Ron," I said.  "That guy has leather ram's
"Innocent, but not naive."   | horns, and a cape."
B2h t w- c k s g+(p) rv p    |     "Yeah, he's dressed like thet at all these
S8/5 g l+ y+ o+ a+ u++- j++  | street fairs.  But wait 'til next month:  me and
{opinions: mine != frame's}  | Val'll take you to Hallowe'en in the Castro.
                             | Gives a whole new meanin' to 'Trick 'r Treat.'"
                             |		- Marc Lynx, "Awl's Fare"
Xref: sparky soc.motss:46515 talk.politics.misc:58759 ca.politics:9414
From: cramer@optilink.UUCP (Clayton Cramer)
Newsgroups: soc.motss,talk.politics.misc,ca.politics
Subject: Re: News From the Front -- Boulder
Date: 7 Nov 92 01:29:38 GMT
Organization: Optilink Corporation, Petaluma, CA

In article <1dc98gINN2er@marvin.solbourne.com>, misek@solbourne.com (Steve Misek) writes:
# It was rumoured that the campus organization has designed a T-shirt that has
# 	"Don't shoot, I'm actually a Black Bear"
# printed over a large pink triangle (In reference to the black bear protection
# ordinance which overwhelmingly passed in Tuesday's election #10)...  Now that
# black bears have more rights than we do...
# 
# steve
# misek@solbourne.com
# misek@parcplace.com

Wow!  You mean it's illegal to discriminate against black bears
in employment in Colorado?

Or that it's now legal to murder homosexuals?  Which clause of
CO-2 was that?
-- 
Clayton E. Cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer  My opinions, all mine!
The Physician Assisted Death Initiative failed.  Term limits for Congressmen
passed.  If only we could have combined the two... two terms, and a doctor
does lethal injection...
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: henry@ADS.COM (Henry Mensch)
Subject: Re: fitting in, unpleasant attention
Organization: Advanced Decision Systems; a div of Booz, Allen & Hamilton
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 00:46:40 GMT

->in article <1992Nov9.171719.29938@wam.umd.edu> rsrodger@wam.umd.edu
->(yamanari) reasserts
->
-> >	Most gays _would_ be very happy if they hadn't been
-> >	homosexual and had just turned out like most of their
-> >	peers.  The one generalization you can make about all
-> >	of humanity:  everyone wants to fit in, or get attention.
-> >
-> >	I feel completely confident in saying that the attention
-> >	most gays get is not pleasant.

your confidence is misplaced.  my coworkers love and respect me, i
have many friends, many of whom can be counted upon in the bad times
as well as the good times, and i get along with my family as well as
any other child who left home at an early age.

most every queer i know can say this.  on the other hand, fewer
heterosexuals i know turn out this well.

i suggest you engage your brain before engaging in vacuous rants like
this again.

--
# henry mensch / booz, allen & hamilton, inc.  / <henry@ads.com>
# "fight the real enemy."  -- sinead o'connor, and many others.
# for information on the league for programming freedom, 
# write to lpf@uunet.uu.net
Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.politics.homosexuality,co.politics
From: gary@colossus.cgd.ucar.edu (Gary Strand)
Subject: Re: Colorado Amendment 2: The First Fatality
Organization: Climate and Global Dynamics Division/NCAR, Boulder, CO
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 00:39:51 GMT

hb> Howard Black
gs> Gary Strand

hb> Make no mistake...gay teens definitely kill themselves over their sexual
    identity.

  Which is not *sufficient* reason to claim that homosexuals are being dis-
  criminated against in this society. They are, make no doubt about it, but
  the fact that teens commit suicide because they're gay isn't proof. That's
  because teens commit suicide for lots of reasons, many of which have noth-
  ing to do with society.

gs> In any case, I don't recall many blacks committing suicide because of the
    racism they suffered, and it's a lot easier to bash blacks than it is to
    bash gays.

hb> How would you know?

  "How would I know" what? I made two assertions above, to which are you refer-
  ring?

--
Gary Strand                      Opinions stated herein are mine alone and are
strandwg@ncar.ucar.edu            not representative of NCAR, UCAR, or the NSF
From: aberson@enh.nist.gov
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: RE: discrimination at CMU
Date: 12 Nov 92 16:00:07 GMT
Organization: NIST

In a previous article, adolphso@mizar.usc.edu (adolphson) wrote:
>In article <1992Nov11.215211.14314@cbnewsl.cb.att.com> 
>ry@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (ryerson.schwark) writes:
> 
>> Oh, yes!  Any of them Faggots who can't be retrained to be closet
>> cases and act like strayt white min will just have to be THROW OUT!
>>
>> Halleluyah!  
> 
>A student's sexual orientation and whether he or she is
>in or out of the closet is of no concern to an acting 
>program.  What we're talking about is how a student ACTS
>on stage.

That's what *you* are talking about.  What the original article was
about, and what many of us are talking about, is that gay men (I assume
lesbians have not existed in CMU's drama department?) and overweight 
women were kicked out of an acting program at a large university, 
with the excuse that they were supposedly unable play a small 
subset of roles which would be available to them.

Sim Aberson   Ft. Lauderdale, FL   aberson%3328.span@sdsc.edu

Hate, bigotry, and discrimination are not family values, even in
Colorado and Tampa.
From: henry@ADS.COM (Henry Mensch)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: "The Hidden Sailor"
Date: 5 Nov 92 07:28:05 GMT
Organization: Advanced Decision Systems; a div of Booz, Allen & Hamilton

jfh@netcom.com (Jack Hamilton) wrote: 
->I heard this on the clock radio this morning, and thought I must have been
->still asleep, but it was in the paper too.  

it was in this morning's chronicle.

->Esther Canseco, wife of baseball player Jose Canseco, is planning to open a
->gay bar in Miami.  Jose plays for the Texas Rangers.  Jose and Esther are
->about to be divorced (Jose had already gotten a divorce from the Oakland
->A's). 

she's putting up the money; i don't know if she's going to open/run
it.

->She put up the money because gay male friends told here there wasn't
->anyplace for older high-income people to go.  Her brother will manage 
->the bar. 

the story in the chronicle made it sound like closeted gay republicans
needed a bar of their own, and esther agreed to fund it.

->I remember that Jose has made homophobic remarks.  I wonder how this ties
->in with that - is the brother gay?

his brother is a hunk.  send him to my place.  i don't think he's gay,
but we can recruit ...

--
# henry mensch / booz, allen & hamilton, inc.  / <henry@ads.com>
# "fight the real enemy."  -- sinead o'connor, and many others.
Newsgroups: soc.motss