From: acsrdl@UMASSD.EDU
Subject: Evidence, please! and the Four Realms
Reply-To: acsrdl@UMASSD.EDU
Organization: UMASS DARTMOUTH, NO. DARTMOUTH, MA.
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 07:23:41 GMT


	This is a reply to postings on two distinct threads: I hope that
combining subjects isn't some sort of faux.pas ;-) ...
 
	Grendel: thank you.  "No evidence, no belief" is an attitude that
would save a *lot* of headaches if more people adopted it....  Ashley, I
can understand your not wanting to "expose" a hidden religion (and thereby
presumably betray someone's trust) but a little bit of description would
be _really_ nice to see.  Use pseudonyms, be vague about what part of the
country your source lives in -- there's a precedent for doing things like
this to protect people anyway, and you can *still* describe the recognized
forms of the deitie(s), the holy days and themes, the ways the religion
diverges from Wicca, and so on.  Better yet, get someone who's a member of
this traditional religion to write something for this newsgroup: first-
hand accounts are _always_ valuable.
 
	Otherwise, all you're saying is "I've got a secret."
 
	I am *fascinated* by the continuing discussion of actual magical
techniques -- if the "roots of Wicca" discussion doesn't lead to a better
understanding of What and How, this certainly will....  I understand the
distinction between Mentalist and Vitalist energies, I think (I like the
separation of head and body foci: that makes a lot of intuitive sense) but
I want to describe a couple of the things I've done because I can't fit
them into either category.
 
	Weather-working is a Naturalist thing, I assume (even though I re-
member something about "plants and animals" as its basic description).  Do
you (Br'anArthur) feel that it uses Mentalist or Vitalist energies?  I've
[pull/flow]ed winds and poked holes in clouds, and that felt like I was
using the sort of body-brightness energy I identify as ki, the difference
being that I was much more aware of the earth as an anchor.  Or do you feel
there's some kind of Naturalist energy that's innately distinct?
 
	The other level of working I can't categorize is what I've tenta-
tively labeled Causality.  I believe that I've been able to affect the
course of events in my life, without specifically trying to influence people
or things.  It's basically "I want *this* to happen, and so I'm going to
tilt these probabilities like *so*...."  This doesn't feel like an exercise
in psi (but what do I know from psi?) but more like weather-working: things/
events "flow" together -- but the energy isn't ki at all.  Writing this, I
considered that Causality might simply be a meta-category, effected through
the four Realms in ways I'm not consciously aware of... but that doesn't
feel entirely right.
 
	(A quick Marble Check, which I found very necessary when exploring
this Causality thing: I went through a long period of time saying things
like "well, yes, what just happened is very similar to what I wanted to have
happen -- but I have no proof at all that my desires influenced it."  I
still have that mindset, but more and more I just grin and thank Whoever is
responsible for seeing me through this life.)
 
	I look forward to continued discussion.
 
Ian David James Toal    ____           __ _/|   <-- This is amazing.  It's
"Otter Aelfwyn"         \  /      //   \ o.O'        from the .sig file of
Fairhaven, MA            \/     \X/    =(___)=       ccs105.psuvm.psu.edu
                                          U
 
Newsgroups: alt.pagan