From: graham@venus.iucf.indiana.edu (JIM GRAHAM)
Subject: Re: Religious Freedom (Re: Gays in the Military..what nobody is talking about:)Summary:
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Reply-To: graham@venus.iucf.indiana.edu
Organization: Somewhere in Bloomington, Indiana
Distribution: usa
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 19:32:05 GMT

In article <merlyn.724112867@digibd>, merlyn@digibd.digibd.com (Merlyn LeRoy) writes...
>graham@venus.iucf.indiana.edu (JIM GRAHAM) writes:
>>One of the arguments against voluntary prayer that I hear over and over
>>from the left is that those who do not participate may feel "left out"
>>and therefore feel "ostracized" or somehow "inferior".  Poor babies.
> 
>Actually, it's a violation of the establishment clause; it isn't illegal
>to be "left out" of things, but it IS illegal for schools to promote
>a religion.  Students can pray, but it isn't the state's business to
>encourage or discourage such.  Why should the state do either of these?

Exactly.  Stay out of it altogether.

Unfortunately, that isn't happening.
> 
>[sports examples deleted]
>>"Ah, but Jim, Jim, Jim" you say, shaking your head from side to side,
>>"There is no constitutional separation of sports and state".
> 
>Your anaolgy is flawed, since it was based on your "feeling left out"
>theory, which is wrong.

No, I don't think it's flawed at all.  Besides, it is not _my_ "theory".

Honestly, I've heard this many times.  

Whether it's an analogy or not is irrelevant.  The simple fact is that
many people _against_ voluntary prayer use the excuse that it might
make those who don't participate feel "left out" and therefore 
"inferior".

I'm not the one who used this argument.  They are.  The "analogy" to
sporting events is a good one.

In both cases, someone stands a very big chance of feeling left out
or inferior.  That is undeniable (unless you're a moron).

If you wish to argue on the merits of "establishment" as defined by
the 1st amendment, then you're talking about an entirely _different_
issue and _reason_.  

>>Bullcrap.  This whole prayer thing has little or nothing to do with
>>separation of church and state, and everything to do with the fact that
>>the left is _afraid_ of anything which even hints of "values".
> 
>Sorry, you're the one full of it.  Court rulings on this are always
>based on the first amendment.  Telling schoolchildren that THESE children
>over here can pray to the Christian god[TM] with the teacher, while THOSE
>children over there get ignored, is an illegal establishment of religion.

That's right, and I am in full agreement.  What does this have to do with
the "left-out" argument used by many liberals?

> 
>>>|...A blind, grade-school girl was quietly praying her rosary 
>>>|beads on the school bus.  The bus driver took them away and the school 
>>>|forbade her from praying the rosary (even quietly) in public.
> 
> 
>>Sounds to me like that bus-driver needs a little "sensitivity training".
> 
>Sounds to me like the bus driver knows as much about S.C. rulings on
>the freedom of religion of schoolchildren as you do.

No.  If the busdriver was that knowledgeable (ie had enough simple
common-sense, and most importantly _COMPASSION_) gasp, cough, he/she
would have left the schoolgirl _alone_ and not made an _issue_ over
it.

>Have you ever
>heard that some of the old "school prayers" children were required to
>pray were explicitly anti-Catholic?  Had a first-person article about that
>in soc.religion.christian (or talk.religion.misc, I forget) a couple of
>years ago; the poster said even though he was a Christian, he was opposed
>to prayer in school because his sister was forced to say anti-Catholic
>prayers by her (supposedly "Christian") teacher.

Who's talking about _compulsory_ prayer?  I thought the issue was
_voluntary_ prayer.


Jim Graham 

        -> ->Disclaimer: I do not speak for my company. <- <-
                          Neither do they speak for me.
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