From: leet@ims.com (Lee Thomas)
Subject: Re: Cultural Appropriation and the New Age
Organization: Integrated Measurement Systems, Inc.
	<725859172snx@tillage.DIALix.oz.au>
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 16:16:57 GMT

>>>>> On Fri, 01 Jan 93 03:32:52 GMT, gil@tillage.DIALix.oz.au (Gil Hardwick) said:

Gil> In article <LEET.92Dec31104023@ibis.ims.com> leet@ims.com writes:

 > It is quite unfortunate that an in-depth discussion of this topic would
 > almost certainly result in a flame war, which is, of course, Usenet
 > culture impacting the free exercise of Christian religious beliefs
 > (i.e., the proclamation of the Good News).

Gil> If Usenet is anything at all like Australia, the reason we no longer
Gil> want to listen to such "Good News" is because we had it rammed down
Gil> our throats all the way through school, accompanied by canings when we
Gil> failed to sit straight and pay strict attention to the preacher.

CANINGS??!?!!  I'm aghast.  Speechless.  Appalled.  They did this in
the name of Christ, did they?

Gil> Still today the Christians come around to preach at us on our
Gil> doorstep,

The only ones doing this on a large scale in America, to my knowledge,
are ones who do not believe in the same Jesus I do.  (And yes,
campers, there's more than one!!)  You're saying that in Oz the
Baptists, Presbyterians, Catholics et. al. are going door-to-door?

Gil>           only respecting *other* people's privacy and beliefs
Gil> after the householders learn to be as insistent and intolerant as
Gil> they are.

I can sympathize, and the only thing which keeps me from reacting in
like manner is the anguish in my heart for a person caught in a cult.
Frankly, there are times when I'd like to break their nose with the
door, but that's not an option for me to actually carry out.

Gil> Christianity has repeatedly demonstrated throughout history that
Gil> it is a cruel, vengeful, intolerant system of belief,

Ahem.  That should read "Christians have repeatedly demonstrated
throughout history that they can be a cruel, vengeful, intolerant
people, totally ignoring their system of belief."  Otherwise, how can
you account for the Mother Teresas of the world?

Gil>                                                 and while there
Gil> is no restriction on its free exercise in Australia we have laws
Gil> in place to protect children from abuse in order to manage its
Gil> worst impacts. We strive also against their constant nagging and
Gil> proselytising to ensure that there may be a similar free exercise
Gil> of religious belief accorded others.

Good on yer.

Gil> If the US was indeed founded on Christianity, that would certainly
Gil> explain the apocalyptic, millenarian scale of destructiveness of their
Gil> war against the Vietnamese people in defence of the Roman Catholic
Gil> regime which had established itself in Saigon under the auspices of
Gil> the previous French colonial administration, typically with no mandate
Gil> from among the people themselves.

By the 1960's the influence of Christianity on American policy had
been declining for twenty years.  In 1963 it basically vanished from
the public sphere altogether.

Gil> You might recall, however, that it was people *protesting*
Gil> against the European Christian establishment which finally led to
Gil> popular suffrage in the US, as well as here in Australia. That
Gil> process continues slowly and painfully, as it can be seen quite
Gil> clearly in South America, The Philipinnes and Southern Africa,
Gil> for example, among the last extensive land masses to be dominated
Gil> in modern times by Christian orthodoxy and its bloody, murderous,
Gil> poverty-stricken consequences.

People protesting against the establishment is not necessarily the
same as people protesting against Christianity.  If you care to
continue this thread, please explain how Christianity was at fault for
the lack of suffrage.  Also, I can't speak for the other two
countries, but I know from South African missionaries (both native and
American-born) that in that country the bloodshed comes primarily from
Marxist blacks killing blacks who refuse to become Marxists.

Gil> Other than that, or any other myriad historical examples which
Gil> can be dated from the propagation and subsequent militarisation
Gil> of the urban mystical sects which had originated in North African
Gil> monotheism during the Roman Empire, known for their constant
Gil> intrigue, squabbling and fighting over some putative lineage of
Gil> descent from Christ, the above thread as it stands is surely of
Gil> no particular interest to Anthropology.

I would think that an entire generation being given a false picture of
its country's foundation and heritage by its instructors, and the
study of the subsequent decay of that generation's culture, would be
of great interest.  However, I'm not an Anthropologist (rather, I'm an
apologist :-) ), so I'll have to defer to your judgement.

Gil> On the other hand, I would be very happy indeed for a further
Gil> thread to continue here provided you demonstrate some willingness
Gil> to allow comparative academic debate based on research and field
Gil> data, framed within the discourse of Anthropology instead of
Gil> orthodox Christianity to the detriment of this discipline.
Gil> 
Gil> I look forward to it with glee, in fact.

As I have no ready access to recent anthropological research results,
much less any academic training in the field, this means either 1) you
have voluminous data with which to enlighten me, provided I'll digest
it - and I'd be utterly delighted to do so; or 2) since I'm not
competent in this field, I can't post here.  If the latter, I must ask
if you would allow to go unchallenged a statement on some other
newsgroup to the effect that (not that I believe *any* of this, it's
simply pedagogy) "anthropology is a pseudo-science founded by
charlatans and promoted to the populace by frauds like Margaret Mead",
especially when the poster was a well-acknowledged authority within
the realm of the newsgroup?  Even if you were totally incompetent in
the domain of discourse for that group, would you let such a statement
pass without comment?
--
Lee Thomas,  leet@ims.com      | 
Integrated Measurement Systems | 
9525 SW Gemini Dr.             | 
Beaverton, Or 97005            | 
(503) 626-7117, ext. 1558      | 
Newsgroups: sci.anthropology