HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.words-l
Date:         Thu, 9 Apr 1992 09:27:49 CDT
 <WORDS-L%UGA.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
From:         "Natalie Maynor" <maynor%RA.MSSTATE.EDU@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
Subject:      Re: ODDS 'N' ENDS

>   The fact that change is inevitable does not imply that there is
> nothing wrong with any change. Are you perhaps saying that there
> cannot be anything wrong with something that is inevitable, and that
> any and all changes that occur in language are in fact inevitable?

More likely I am merging two ideas about language change.  For a *much*
better explanation than mine, see Jean Aitchison's -Language Change-.
You'll also learn some things about humpback whales from it.  I would
quote some passages except that I'm way behind in paper-grading -- need
to hurry up and give some F's to papers that suggest that language change
is bad. ;-)

>   There must be some missing steps here. In so far as I understand you,
> you're saying there is nothing wrong with any linguistic change as
> long as people communicate without problem.

I don't see any missing steps.  Maybe there are some.  Your interpretation
of what I said is exactly what I intended to say.

> But this doesn't tell us
> much as long as you haven't said anything about what constitutes
> communication.

I didn't realize that I needed to define every term.  How about saying
that communication is anything that involves exchange of information or
ideas?  I'm open to better definitions.  That one is offered quickly off
the top of my head for starters.  As I said, I'm racing right now.  I
need to read what my students have communicated to me on their papers
and then communicate back to them my reactions.

> Taken literally, your comments imply that there is
> nothing wrong with a change whereby people communicate by means of
> grunts, since language always evolves to meet the "needs" of the
> speakers.

Right.  That's what I meant to say.

> Are you speaking of "needs" in some objective sense, or of
> what people perceive as their "needs"? What are these needs, and
> why isn't there anything wrong with such a change?

Although what I've said works fine for the narrower definition of
"needs," I would include the broader sense also -- the sense of what
people perceive as their needs (things that might be considered
"wants" rather than "needs").  What are these needs?  That varies.
There's no single answer.  Why isn't there anything wrong with such
a change?  Why isn't there anything wrong with changing class schedules
to start classes at 8:15 instead of 8:00?  I can't see anything wrong
with it -- except possible confusion at first (same is true for some
changes in language -- e.g., knowing what somebody means by the word
"disinterested" right now).
   --Natalie (maynor@ra.msstate.edu)
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Date:         Wed, 8 Apr 1992 08:42:38 EDT
 <WORDS-L%UGA.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
From:         Carol Goodson <CGOODSON%UGA.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
Subject:      Re: CALLING ALL STUDENTS OF RUSSIAN
              7 Apr 1992 20:13:35 -0500 from <harwood@TENET.EDU>

I agree totally about the value of Latin for English grammar, plus it helps
with vocabulary very much, in my opinion...
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Date:         Tue, 14 Apr 1992 14:31:06 +0200
 <WORDS-L%UGA.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
From:         torkel%SICS.SE@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU
Subject:      Re: ODDS 'N' ENDS
Comments: To: English Language Discussion Group <WORDS-L@uga.cc.uga.edu>
              14 Apr 92 07:23:07 -0500.
              <9204141224.AAsunic06844@sunic.sunet.se>

  Natalie says:

  >>For example, are you or are you not saying that
  >>you know as a linguist that there is nothing wrong with a language
  >>such as English changing into a system of grunts?

  >I am.

  But didn't you just agree with me ("As you say...") that this is a
value judgment, philosophical in nature? Or is it just the view that
there is something wrong with such a change that is a value judgment,
philosophical in nature, not the view that there is nothing wrong with
such a change?
From: gtoal@castle.ed.ac.uk (Graham Toal)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.words-l
Subject: Re: CALLING ALL STUDENTS OF RUSSIAN
Date: 10 Apr 92 20:24:37 GMT
Organization: Edinburgh University

In article <WORDS-L%92041013131897@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU> WHITERJ%MSCD.BITNET@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU (The Ronin) writes:
>outputs.  But you also deny that such structures can be represented as
>rules.  While I concur that the structures that are built are neither

There's the source of your apparent contradiction.  I didn't mean
that they are not representable by rules, but that they are not
*implemented* by rules.  If the neural network is at all compact
there *will* be rules, else all would be individually processed
exceptions in explicit memory.  But any rules extracted from
observation of the system are just a convenient way of helping
us discuss the system.  They have no physical existence.

Graham
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Date:         Thu, 9 Apr 1992 06:49:38 -0500
 <WORDS-L%UGA.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
From:         Nancy Harwood <harwood%TENET.EDU@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
Subject:      Re: ODDS 'N' ENDS
Comments: To: English Language Discussion Group <WORDS-L@uga.cc.uga.edu>
Comments: cc: Multiple recipients of list WORDS-L <WORDS-L@uga.cc.uga.edu>

>
> > "Can I lay down with us?", obviously repeating our question of if she would
>          ^^^^^^^^
> As I said last night, we all (linguists included) have to put up with
> crawling skin when language change is occurring.  Les's 27-month-old
> daughter is acquiring "correct" grammar for her generation.  As a linguist
> I know that there's nothing wrong with that.  The English of her generation
> should not be expected to be the English of my generation.  Even Samuel
> Johnson finally realized that -- although he continued to fight it.  It
> took me a minute to recognize the point Les was making about "with us"
> because I was too busy trying to convince my skin to stop crawling from
> "lay down."  The linguist part of me was fighting with the other part of
> me.  It's my non-linguist part that reacts with crawling skin -- like
> Frank of Brown and preterit "sung."

>    --Natalie (maynor@ra.msstate.edu)

My skin crawls every time I hear our high school students talk about
"laying out" (in the sun to tan).
ndh
who should be on her way to school *right now*
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.words-l
Date:         Mon, 6 Apr 1992 19:27:00 EDT
 <WORDS-L%UGA.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
From:         AXD7104%NYUACF.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU
Subject:      Re: List Coma

Jupiter University?  I mean, NYU is on this planet, though I often question
just how spaced-out I must have been to come here in the first place.

I'm on a Vax/VMS system, using (I think) VMSMail, which I despise, since it
seems to offer NONE of the abilities that you wordslers use on a regular
basis.  Any offers of help, preferably in the form of a free Unix account :-),
is greatly encouraged.

--Aaron
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.words-l
Date:         Tue, 7 Apr 1992 18:39:52 -0500
 <WORDS-L%UGA.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
From:         Nancy Harwood <harwood%TENET.EDU@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
Subject:      Re: tarmac rugrats
Comments: To: English Language Discussion Group <WORDS-L@uga.cc.uga.edu>
Comments: cc: Multiple recipients of list WORDS-L <WORDS-L@uga.cc.uga.edu>

> Can I still come to the clambake even though I was not teased or tormented
> as a child?
>    --Natalie (maynor@ra.msstate.edu)

I'm sure you were one of the nice children who didn't tease or torment
anybody...if I were going to the clambake, I would certainly want to see
you there.
ndh
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.words-l
Date:         Wed, 8 Apr 1992 12:20:03 -0400
 <WORDS-L%UGA.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
From:         Steve Portigal <stevep%SNOWHITE.CIS.UOGUELPH.CA@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Isaac Asimov
Comments: To: WORDS-L@uga.cc.uga.edu

>
>>Is it true that Asimov would not fly ?  I've heard this repeated many times,
>>but it sounds like one of those UL things.
>
>>Tony H.
>
  I read his 800 page autobiography (this was part 1 of a projected 3)
and he mentioned (among many banal details) that he wouldn't fly.  It
was pretty interesting for the most part, but who really cares about what
day he passed his kidney stone in 1965?

Steve, PHd
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Date:         Wed, 15 Apr 1992 10:03:00 EST
 <WORDS-L%UGA.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
From:         "The harder I work, the behinder I get"
 <TRAVEN%VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Elvis stamp
Comments: To: WORDS-L@uga.cc.uga.EDU

>I know that this is probably out of the scope of this group, but I was
>wondering if anyone has taken a poll of Word-L people about their preference
>as to which Elvis stamp the USPS should manufacture; the "young" Elvis or
>the "old" Elvis?  I have a hunch as to which one this group prefers, but
>I'm not going to say.  Has this been done here already and am I being
>redundant?  Inquiring minds want to know!

	I'm not voting.  That would acknowledge that the King is dead, and I'm
	absolutely *certain* I saw him buying Slim-Jims and a 2-liter RC Cola
	at 7-11 the other day.  Look for my exclusive eyewitness report in next
	week's Enquirer -- it'll be on the page after the story about Abraham
	Lincoln's son Tad (I didn't know that he's still alive, having been
	placed in suspended animation when he was abducted from the White House
	by that alien spaceship in 1863).

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
neal	traven@pittvms			Bitnet		412-624-0097 (office)
	traven@vms.cis.pitt.edu  	Internet	412-624-0110 (fax)
			"Whoever wants to know the heart and mind of America
			 had better learn baseball."	-- Jacques Barzun
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.words-l
Date:         Sun, 12 Apr 1992 12:45:20 EST
 <WORDS-L%UGA.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
From:         Karen Kay <LL23%NEMOMUS.BITNET%UGA.CC.UGA.EDU@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Understatement of the Year
Comments: To: WORDS-L@uga.cc.uga.edu

> The Universal Declaration of Human Rights states that "everyone has the right
> to leave any country (including his own)...".  For a signatory country to
> restrict which countries its citizens can leave to go *to* would seem to make
> a mockery of this.  I can't imagine that a prohibition on visiting another
> country would pass the courts in this country, though I don't think it's
> come up.  Surely someone must have challenged it in the US by now ?
>
> Tony H.


My fault.  You can go to Cuba or North Vietnam (er...I can, I mean), but
the american govt is not responsible for me there.  Whereas, if I were
thrown into prison in Brazil, like my friend Tom, then the US gov't
would help me out.  Not a restriction, but a STRONG 'caveat traveller'.

Karen
who isn't really logged on:)
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Date:         Fri, 10 Apr 1992 00:36:13 MST
 <WORDS-L%UGA.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
From:         Dan Lester <ALILESTE%IDBSU.IDBSU.EDU@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
Subject:      good night
Comments: To: All fellow wordslers <words-l@uga.cc.uga.edu>

well, its too damn late....the 60 unread msgs will just have to wait
til tomorrow or later.  We're leaving town late afternoon friday....and
I won't be back til tues nite late.  as of now don't expect to get laptop
with me, and don't have an account in Salt Lake City to access stuff anyway,
unless friend from another list who works at Weber State in Ogden comes
thru with a connection.                      ^^^^^   (pronounced Weeeber)

see ya...maybe more later today...but its gonna be crazy day

dan
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Date:         Thu, 9 Apr 1992 13:14:02 +0200
 <WORDS-L%UGA.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
From:         torkel%SICS.SE@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU
Subject:      Re: ODDS 'N' ENDS
Comments: To: English Language Discussion Group <WORDS-L@uga.cc.uga.edu>
              09 Apr 92 06:07:02 -0500. <9204091107.AA02886@sics.se>

  Natalie says:

>As I said last night, we all (linguists included) have to put up with
>crawling skin when language change is occurring.  Les's 27-month-old
>daughter is acquiring "correct" grammar for her generation.  As a linguist
>I know that there's nothing wrong with that.

  If I may bring this question up again, what is it you know as a linguist
that implies that there is nothing wrong with changes in grammar?
From: gtoal@gem.stack.urc.tue.nl (Graham Toal)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.words-l
Subject: Re: Reflections on the matter of language change
Date: 16 Apr 92 19:56:51 GMT
Reply-To: gtoal@stack.urc.tue.nl
Organization: MCGV Stack, Eindhoven University of Technology, the Netherlands

In article <WORDS-L%92041515370952@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU> FDOLEZAL%UGA.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU (Fredric) writes:
>On Wed, 15 Apr 1992 13:54:56 CDT Natalie Maynor said:
>>
>>The statement that language change is not wrong (or bad) includes all
>>language change.
>
>Try this on for size:  Imagine a society that started using the word JEW
>as a synonym for "evil, dirty rotten, no-good corrupter of our values"
>Are you saying you can separate the 'linguistic change' from the application or
>usage?

Smile, when you say that, stranger.  We were wondering the other day whether
there were any Oxford-style (ie Uni DebSoc) debaters among us.

If you came up with *that* sort of argument in a debating society,
you'd be laughed out on your arse.  When you decide to join in a constructive
discussion, let us know...  Meanwhile I think the majority of this group
will probably ignore you, if your postings continue in this quarrelsome
vein.

Graham
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Date:         Thu, 16 Apr 1992 18:03:00 PST
 <WORDS-L%UGA.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
From:         Lobstrosities Unite <CHRISS%CWU.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
Subject:      Well, really.

Lookit now.  I finally get access back and am raring to offer my two bits on
whatever the current topic is and I find I'm the only one on.  Come on.
Somebody say something controversial.

Please...

Chris
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Date:         Thu, 16 Apr 1992 10:26:40 +0200
 <WORDS-L%UGA.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
From:         torkel%SICS.SE@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU
Subject:      Re: Reflections on the matter of language change
Comments: To: English Language Discussion Group <WORDS-L@uga.cc.uga.edu>
              15 Apr 92 13:11:55 -0500. <9204152303.AA04875@sics.se>

  Natalie asks:

> So what are we in fact talking about??

  My concern has been, throughout, with your statement that you know as
a linguist that there is nothing wrong with language change. This statement
is on the face of it interesting, and in apparent conflict with e.g.
the statement that it would be deplorable if English turned into a
system of grunts. However, it has emerged that there is in fact no conflict
at all between the two statements, which is not something that was
apparent to me at the outset. As to the content of your statement - that
there is nothing wrong with changes in language, where we very
carefully specify that we are speaking of changes only in language, not
in culture - I can make little of it. It seems pretty vacuous to me, and
I'm still puzzled by the question what linguistic knowledge it embodies,
especially since you yourself described its negation as "pretty
meaningless".

  In speaking earlier of the "course of the argument" I had in mind the
fact that I had stated, I thought, pretty clearly what my question was:

   These remarks don't answer the question I had in mind. Let me be a
   bit clearer. It may be held that there is "nothing wrong" with any
  "natural" change in human culture, since such changes just reflect
   people's "needs". So, for example, if our current mathematics,
   literature, and music just die and vanish, there is "nothing wrong"
   with this. Now this is a perfectly comprehensible view, but I can't
   see that anything that linguistics or any other scientific discipline
   teaches implies that there is nothing wrong with such changes.

  However, you did not at that point respond that your statement did
not at all concern changes in culture, but with various other remarks
and expositions.  Hence my repeated questions.
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Date:         Tue, 7 Apr 1992 20:13:35 -0500
 <WORDS-L%UGA.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
From:         Nancy Harwood <harwood%TENET.EDU@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
Subject:      Re: CALLING ALL STUDENTS OF RUSSIAN
Comments: To: English Language Discussion Group <WORDS-L@uga.cc.uga.edu>
Comments: cc: Multiple recipients of list WORDS-L <WORDS-L@uga.cc.uga.edu>

>
> Exactly how does Latin help you with English?
>    --Natalie (maynor@ra.msstate.edu)
>      aka Devil's Advocate

I gained more understanding of grammar in my two years of high school
Latin than in any of my English classes but advanced grammar in
college.  Once I understood Latin grammar, a lot of things in English
grammar made sense...which was good, because my junior high and high
school English teachers had a tendency to pay more attention to the exact
 angle of the lines of a diagram and to how neat your notebook was than
they did to making you *understand* what you were doing.
ndh
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Date:         Thu, 16 Apr 1992 17:10:47 CDT
 <WORDS-L%UGA.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
From:         Anne Harwell <aharwell%PANAM1.PANAM.EDU@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Reflections on the matter of language change
Comments: To: WORDS-L@uga.cc.uga.edu

>Uh oh, gang.  This is the first time in a while we've had a big-time
>picker of nits aboard.  (Note:  That is not a complaint or criticism!


NOT!

-abh

Can you say "Adam Conn?"
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Original-From: hlwpk!ktw (Kenneth T Wolman +1 201 564 2866)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.words-l
Date:         Tue, 7 Apr 1992 07:47:00 EDT
 <WORDS-L%UGA.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
From:         ktw%HLWPK.ATT.COM@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU
Subject:      Sam Reshevsky story
Comments: To: WORDS-L@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU

A number of people at the Wayne Chess Club, where I played when I
still played, had Reshevsky stories.  At the time when the club was
still flush, they'd have him come in once a year and play a simul,
twenty bucks a board to get your ass handed to you in 10 moves or
less.  One of the players told us one night he'd seen the old guy at
one of the larger Opens, playing against a younger man, a grandmaster
wanna-be.  I'm not sure who had the advantage, but Reshevsky got into
his usual time trouble as the clocks ran down.  His eyes were weak, so
he tilted the clock to look at how many minutes he had.  The young guy
freaked, yelled for the TD, and began shouting that Reshevsky had
touched the clock illegally.  Finally, they cooled this kid down: and
Reshevsky very calmly demolished him.  The guy tipped over his King
and extended his hand.  Reshevsky's supposed to have looked him over
very calmly, held his out, and said "I'll shake your hand this time,
SONNY, but you should learn a few manners!"

Ken
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Original_cc:  WHITERJ
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.words-l
Date:         Mon, 6 Apr 1992 17:20:00 MDT
 <WORDS-L%UGA.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
From:         The Ronin <WHITERJ%MSCD.BITNET@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
Subject:      RE: Gleanings (38)

Gleaneth Doctor Akio Tanaka

> 28) Dr. T. G. Boman (Ronin)

     Only gleaned once?  I must be being too clear.  I have recently
enticed yet another student here to sign up for WORDS-L, Gayle Boman.
Someone asked if she was to be called 'The Gayle'.  Taking that post
plus the request to tack 'Dr.' on everyone (except Mama), I created
the name "Dr. T[he]. G[ayle]. Boman" as a means of referring to her.

The Ronin
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Date:         Tue, 7 Apr 1992 10:27:00 CDT
 <WORDS-L%UGA.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
From:         "815 Stephen H. Karlson 753-6980"
 <TA0SHK1%NIU.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
Subject:      BITNET's on the lifted tack

My postings are getting through very rapidly again this morning.
It's nice to have bitnet functioning properly for once.

Steve Karlson
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Date:         Wed, 8 Apr 1992 20:03:00 PST
 <WORDS-L%UGA.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
From:         Lobstrosities Unite <CHRISS%CWU.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
Subject:      Re: CALLING ALL STUDENTS OF RUSSIAN

>"hoedown" in the parlor), and I enjoyed what I was doing more when I
>could see the pattern of movements evolving rather than just doing each
>separate movement without thinking...I *still* haven't explained it...sorry.
>ndh

Exactly, Nancy!  This is much better than what I was trying to get at in the
message that just showed up.  I mean, sure you could do a square dance and
just move where someone told you.  But when you can finally step back and see
the whole thing and how you fit in and how what you do affects the pattern, it
makes so much more sense.

The same thing applies to language.  Sure, you could go through life, and
perhaps live quite well, without ever knowing what a direct object is and how
it's used and stuff, but understanding a system, any system, is what's known as
education.  It's not a bunch of facts but rather how those facts fit together,
just as a square dance is not a bunch of people performing pre-defined moves,
but rather how those moves create a dance.

Chris
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Date:         Fri, 17 Apr 1992 08:52:28 CDT
 <WORDS-L%UGA.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
From:         Anne Harwell <aharwell%PANAM1.PANAM.EDU@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Reflections on the matter of language change
Comments: To: WORDS-L@uga.cc.uga.edu

>Under my trousers, where they're staying.  Or is this a declaration of intent
>for the clambake???


No way, my man. Judith has already told me she'll consider me her "mortal
enemy" if I do.

-abh
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Date:         Tue, 14 Apr 1992 10:30:34 EST
 <WORDS-L%UGA.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
From:         Evelyn Duncan <R3EJD%AKRONVM.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
Subject:      Re: flipping channels
              14 Apr 1992 00:13:31 CDT from <tushar@ZAPHOD.UCHICAGO.EDU>

Tushar, if I could get an NEA grant, I might make that movie. :)
I saw some NEA-grant winners, and my niece Marissa can paint better
pictures than those.

Evelyn
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Subject: (no subject given)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.words-l
Date:         Fri, 17 Apr 1992 13:13:21 EST
 <WORDS-L%UGA.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
Comments:     Resent-From: Evelyn <R3EJD@AKRONVM>
From:         Evelyn <R3EJD%AKRONVM.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>

This is someone's sig file, and I thought the list might like to have it.

----------------------------Original message----------------------------
"Ha!  Your Leaping Tiger Kung Fu is no match for my Frightened Piglet Style!"
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