HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: drori@gumby.Altos.COM (Ghiora Drori)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Terrorism
Date: 12 Jan 93 22:26:48 GMT
Reply-To: drori@altos.COM (Ghiora Drori)
Organization: Altos Computer Systems, San Jose, CA

In article <1993Jan12.072800.9544@informix.com# proberts@informix.com (Paul Roberts) writes:
#In article <43351@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> revans@euclid.ucsd.edu (Ron Evans) writes:
#>
#>	If someone plants a bomb which later explodes in a 
#>        military transport plane flying to Somalia, 
#>	I would consider that TERRORISM, even if none of the
#>	dead were civilians.
#>
#
#How about if someone plants a bomb in the King David Hotel? 

Yes its terrorism. Most of the Jewish poulation at the time ;
about ninty five percent I would guess considerd it terrorism.
I would like to kindly suggest you read some good history books before
your next post.
Gigi
From: aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Shaqeeqa)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Israeli Expulsion of 418 Palestinians
Date: 9 Jan 93 07:13:38 GMT
Organization: University of Colorado at Denver

In article <1993Jan9.011313.13004@ncsu.edu> hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU (Brad Hernlem) writes:
>
>Bring on the court of law!

But is she wearing a blindfold and holding an equally balanced scale?

Anisa


	"We don't live in Israel.  Not at all.  We live in
	Palestinian territory.  It's Israeli occupied."
					Hanan Ashrawi
From: "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com>
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: deportations
Date: 6 Jan 93 07:18:08 EST
Reply-To: "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com>
Distribution: talk
Organization: Channel 1 Communications

To: David Makowsky

 WM> Kindly name one international lawyer in the world who is not a
 WM> militant Zionist who supports Israel's and Safire's
 WM> interpretation of the Geneva Conventions.

 DM> How about one of the world's leading authorities in the
 DM> area. Bernard Stone.

Who is Bernard Stone? What is the specific document in which he
defended Israel's deportations? If we dig a little will we
discover that he has emotional ties to Israel that cloud his
objective interpretation of the law? Precise cite, please.

 DM> The US and the world are making POLITICAL, NOT LEGAL,
 DM> statements. When Bush Baker & Associates wanted the State
 DM> department to issue a legal opinion with your
 DM> interpretation, they had to get some third rate flunky to do
 DM> it. None of their top lawyers would because they knew it was
 DM> bogus.

 WM> Present even one particle of proof to back up this statement, if
 WM> you can. Name the incident and name the lawyers.

 DM> I no longer have a copy of the article, but I posted the
 DM> whole thing on the net.

In other words you can't support your assertion with a particle
of proof.

 DM> Ps: please wite more about the "racist Kahanist Brooklyn"
 DM> Jewish Press, a newspaper read all over the world.  I laugh
 DM> whenever I see you reference it.

I'm glad you're so heartily amused. The Jewish Press was Meir
Kahane's home base and a platform from which he spewed forth his
racist hatred. Are you a defender of Kahane and the Jewish Press?

If a Christian leader described Jews as dogs and leeches who
should be deported or murdered in the name of Christianity, would
you consider him to be slightly anti-Semitic? Virulently
anti-Semitic?

See the accompanying clip quoting some of Kahane's choicer
statements. Do you actually defend a man who would make such
remarks?

What sort of image of Jews, Judaism and Israel does Kahanism
present to the non-Jewish world do you think?
---
  OLX 3.01 31-2557  It's not a happening option.
--
Channel 1 (R)   Cambridge, MA
From: bv652@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ilan Uri Woll)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Can anyone answer a real quick, simple question?
Date: 4 Jan 1993 06:45:57 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: bv652@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ilan Uri Woll)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, marwang@bach.rutgers.edu (Marwan Gharaybeh) says:

>cubsfan@camelot.bradley.edu (Michael Silverman) writes:
>
>>The United Nations condemned Israeli expulsion of Palestinians from

>
>>My question...why did the UN not condemn the acts of terrorism
>>which *led* to the expulsions?
>
>>Can anyone (pro or anti -Israel) answer this?
>
>Because it was not an act of terrorism ... Terrorism is the action of killing
>civilians not militery ... The victim is a policeman, and it is known that
>Israeli policemen are terrorists because they hunt down civilian arab 10 year
>olds in the streets of the west bank and Gaza.
>
>Are you saying that the world should condemn civilian rebelions around the
>world ... If so why didn't the world condemn the civilian uprising in
>Tiniamin square in china and the uprising against comunism in the former
>soviet union.

Ah Marwan, you're back, and you're wrong.

Hamas, along with killing policemen (which, I grant, are in Israel para-
military), Hamas was involved in the stabbings of CIVILIANS and the sending 
of letter bombs to prominent Israelis.

Terrorism is the act of killing non-combatants.  And, as I have proven before,
the Palestinian civilians have been anything but non-combative.  Stabbings
and stonings do not make you peaceful.

The reason the UN did not condemn Arab crimes is simply a matter of votes.
In the General Assembly there is one vote per nation, and the vast number
of third-world nations are far more willing to believe the Arab nations than
Israel, which is largely seen as a US puppet.

As to your 2 examples, there is a very large difference between the Tinnamen
uprising and the Intifada and that is a term we have discussed before.
Civil disobedience.  The Chinese students did not attack Chinese civilians
or military, but stood as examples to Palestinian ruffians who chose to
stab their way to success.

Try being objective Marwan, if you examine the Israeli problem the way you
examine a computer problem, you might see a whole new perspective.

Ilan
-- 
---  !      ^    !\  !
 !   !     /-\   ! \ !
___  !__  /   \  !  \!  
                        Avoid cliches like the plague" George Shaw
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: kgivon@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (karen lee givon)
Subject: Re: jews as a race
Organization: Indiana University
Distribution: talk
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 08:48:51 GMT

In article <1993Jan11.1777.22395@channel1> "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com> writes:

>The argument that anyone in the world can convert to Judaism
>strikes me as somewhat bogus, even as a public relations gimmick
>devised with the recognition that racial notions of Jewishness
>haven't gone over very well with the non-Jewish world. In the
>real world, conversions are discouraged and are few and far
>between. 

Really?  My synagogue has a membership of about 200 people.  At this
moment I can think of at least 15 converts in that congregation. 
I, an Israeli citizen by birth, am a grandchild of one of those
converts. 

These converts are some of the most well respected members of the
congregation.   Among them have been presidents of the synagogue,
presidents of our Hadassah chapter, presidents of our sisterhood, and
chairpersons of the most important committees in the synagogue. 

>
></o>
>---
>  OLX 3.01 31-2557  The universe is a set of connected objects.
>--
>Channel 1 (R)   Cambridge, MA

Keren   

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: niepornt@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (David Marc Nieporent)
Subject: Re: Israeli Expulsion of 418 Palestinians
Originator: news@nimaster
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1993 09:17:13 GMT

In article <1iof4uINN7tn@manuel.anu.edu.au> bdm@cs.anu.edu.au writes:
>In article 1583@blue.cis.pitt.edu, rdtst+@pitt.edu (Richard D Thorne) writes:

>>Other jurists (Rostow and Schwebel) concur in this analysis.

>>  It is important to note that the UN is not empowered to decide this issue
>>and therefore UN resolutions have no legal standing on this issue.  
>>Furthermore the advancement of the claim that the territory in question should
>>revert to the status of unallocated territory of the League of Nations Mandate
>>strengthens Israel's claim to these territories according to Rostow.  The 
>>terms of the Mandate refer to this territory as a "Jewish national home" and

>They do not.

>>in article 6 calls for "close settlement by Jews on lands, including State
>>lands and waste lands not required for public purposes".  

>"while ensuring that the rights and position of other sections of the
>population are not prejudiced".   Forgot that part?

>>    I don't think that either legality nor morality motivate those who have
>> condemned Israel for it's treatment of admitted members of a criminal 
>> conspiracy.  No one denies the association of these people with Hamas.
>> This is just another example of the Security Council trying to bully 
>> Israel in order to gain favor with its Oil supply.

>You might be right about the Security Council's motives, but that
>doesn't mean its condemnation is wrong.  For me the most damning
>thing about Israel's attitude towards the Geneva Convention is the
>lengths it is prepared to go to "prove" it doesn't need to obey it.

On this I have to agree with Brendan.  The fact that there is a possible
legal loophole which permits Israel to not apply the Geneva Convention
does not make it (morally) right to not do so.

While Israel might be following the letter of the law, it is certainly
not following the spirit.

-- 
David M. Nieporent   | Is it too early to start making predictions for 1993?
niepornt@phoenix.    | Probably, but that never stopped me before.
   princeton.edu     | ALE: Baltimore ALW: Chicago NLE: Montreal NLW: Atlanta
Baltimore Orioles 93 | AL MVP: Cal Ripken  AL Cy Young: Mike Mussina
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: bv652@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ilan Uri Woll)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: What is this doing on page 15
Date: 8 Jan 1993 06:01:50 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: bv652@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ilan Uri Woll)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk (Jeremy Henderson) says:

>In article <1igmjjINN660@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> bv652@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ilan Uri Woll) writes:
>~
>~In a previous article, jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk (Jeremy Henderson) says:
>~
>~>In article <1i8tuoINNcj8@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> bv652@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ilan Uri Woll) writes:
>~>~
>~>~In a previous article, zmbenhal@netcom.com (Zeyd M. Ben-Halim) says:
>~>~errs, and so far I'm not sold that Israel is right on this call.  I try to be
>~>~objective.  Apparently you do not.  The Hamas leaders were guilty of many 
>~>~violent acts, and it was within Israel's right to deport them.
>~>~ 
>~>
>~>You claim to be objective and in the next breath you demonstrate that you
>~>are nothing of the sort - has it not penetrated your skull that the deportees
>~>have been found guilty of no crime whatsoever? Your presumption of guilt
>~>exposes your prejudices.
>~
>~As they were refugees in occupied territory still considered at war
>
>Considered by whom? Does this mean that the Israelis treat Palestinians as
>prisoners of war, allowing access by the Red Cross etc.? I think not.

By the definition of war.

The Arab nations have not

1. Accepted defeat.
2. Entered into peace negotiation with Israel (or asked for it)
3. R3ecognized Israel's right to exist within 1948 borders.

Thus, I have to believe the war is not de facto over.
-- 
---  !      ^    !\  !
 !   !     /-\   ! \ !
___  !__  /   \  !  \!  
                        Avoid cliches like the plague" George Shaw
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Deportation vs. Murder
Date: 6 Jan 93 19:06:29 GMT
Organization: Aiken Computation Lab, Harvard University

In article <Jan.4.13.19.05.1993.19258@bach.rutgers.edu> marwang@bach.rutgers.edu (Marwan Gharaybeh) writes:
>kremer@taveng.enet.dec.com writes:

>>	Oops your anti-Semitism is showing again.

>Insisting that I am anti-Semitic when I SAID several times that I am 
>a Semite is really stupid and foolish on your part. You are very much

Insisting that you don't speak English very well, while clear from
your posts, does not excuse your ignoring the fact that the words
anti-Semite and semite are not related, as you have been told many
times. 
 
The word "anti-Semitism" was created in Germany in 1879 by Wilhelm
Marr as a more euphonius way of saying "Judenhass" (Jew-hatred), and
has always meant exactly that.  (Marr was an equal-opportunity bigot,
hating many groups.)

A word's meaning is defined by how it is coined and used, not how its
roots define it.  "Inflammable" does not mean "not flammable", nor
does "sycophant" imply a fruit seller (sukon - fig, phantes - to
show).  "Anti-Semite" was coined and has always been understood to
mean "Anti-Jew".

>>>Arabs are Semite ... They cannot be Anti-Semite.

>>	English lesson:
>>	
>>	anti-Semite n. A person hostile toward Jews 
>>	(The American Heritage Dictionary)

>>	What does your dictionary say????

>Yow Stupid take this in your face ...

>Concise Oxford Dictionary, 8th Ed., Copyright 1991 Oxford Univ. Press
>
>/Semite/ <<"si:maIt>>, <<"sem->> n.[People] a member of any of the peoples
>supposed to be descended from Shem, son of Noah (Gen. 10:21 ff.), including
>esp. the Jews, Arabs, Assyrians, and Phoenicians{adj. omitted Mar 88}.
>         ^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>Are you satisfied ... Over and Over again ... I say that the arabs
>are semites 
>and that it is really foolish to use this term that was produced by the
>Zionist GUM factories in europe and chew it over to the middle east where
>everyone is a Semite.

No one is denying that Arabs are semites.  What we are saying is that
the word anti-Semite refers to one who hates Jews.

>>	Did the "people that gathered in Tiniamin square in china" throw
>>	rocks and fire bombs at passing CIVILIAN cars? How about "those
>>	CRIMINALS that gathered near the Kremlin"?
>>	
>As for Tiniamin square ... I did see people throwing stones at the police
>but for the communists ... though they were communists but they were also
>humans and they did not hunt down the demonstrators with machine guns (at
>least in that particular incident) ...

Could you provide a reference?  I didn't see or hear about rock
throwing at Tienamen.

Also, several students have been executed since the massacre.  They
were not, as you point out, machine gunned, but hung.

Adam
Adam Shostack 					adam@das.harvard.edu

What a terrible thing to have lost one's .sig.  Or not to have a .sig
at all.  How true that is.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: backon@vms.huji.ac.il
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: american opinion
Date: 5 Jan 93 13:31:14 GMT
Distribution: talk,world
Organization: The Hebrew University of Jerusalem

In article <bill.726186571@bcserv>, bill@bcserv.wustl.edu (Eldridge (Bill)) writes:
> backon@vms.huji.ac.il writes:
>
>>In article <bill.725741652@castor>, bill@cognet.ucla.edu (William M. Eldridge) writes:
>>>
>>> This is a good analogy.  What do you have to do to get citizenship then?
>
>>I'm afraid you simply don't understand that in MANY European countries,
>>citizenship is not automatic. Switzerland is no exception.
>
> I'm afraid you don't understand.  In most countries, gaining citizenship
> through immigration is not automatic.



I was *not* referring to immigrants.


>  However, in most countries, being
> born there does guarantee you citizenship (with a variety of exceptions
> and modifications).  Certainly there aren't many European countries that
> disenfranchise large portions of their population (and the ones that do
> aren't generally called democratic)/.


I had NO idea that Switzerland wasn't democratic. You *really* ought to tell
this to the Swiss Embassy in Washington.

To reiterate: you can be born in Switzerland, your father can be born in
Switzerland and your grandfather can be born in Switzerland, but this does NOT
automatically grant you Swiss citizenship.


>
>>>
>>>>> This is just trying to blow up the sympathy level for Israel
>>>>> to get more money.  Everybody else in the world PAID during that
>>>>> war.  Israel feels it deserves a profit.
>>>>> (Casualties?  Ten?  Oh my.)
>>>
>>>>Oh my ! How Christian of you ! But then again, you know how JEWS are when it
>>>>comes to profit :-)
>>>
>>> Why are you bringing in the Christian/Jew angle (have I made any pro-Christian
>>> or anti-Jewish comments?).
>
>>Yes, your comment was absurd and rascist.
>
> Bullshit.  Your comment is insulting, not just to me, but to Jews
> who suffer real affronts and racism, not just your over-sensitive
> paranoia, or your trivial misappropriating the term.
>

You wrote: "Everybody else in the world PAID during that war. Israel feels it
deserves a profit".  The juxtaposition of the two sentences, IMHO, has
rascist connotations.


Josh
backon@VMS.HUJI.AC.IL

> --
> William M. Eldridge			bill@bcserv.wustl.edu
> Biochemistry Department Box 8231	(314) 362-3436
> Washington Univ. School of Medicine	(314) 362-7183 (fax)
> 660 S. Euclid, St. Louis, MO 63110
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: cubsfan@camelot.bradley.edu (Michael Silverman)
Subject: Re: israel
Organization: Priests of the Temples of Syrinx
Date:  5 Jan 93 16:30:35 GMT

In <1483500315@igc.apc.org> cpr@igc.apc.org (Center for Policy Research) writes:

>1. Center for Policy Research is a focal point for debate, peace work
>and documentation. Is it a privately held and financed initiative run by
>myself and assisted by many sympathizers on an ad hoc base.

In other words, one person.


>   NO. I oppose as a matter of principle Jewish, muslim, catholic or
>    other religiously or ethnically-determined states. If Israel would

Then you must be opposed to the existance of Saudi Arabia, which is
a much clearer theocracy than Israel. S.A. doesn't even allow
Jews or Christians to dirty their soil (unless, of course, they
come crying for help to stop Saddam Hussein).

>   constitute itself as the state of all its inhabitants, as a sovereign
>    and independent state, where religion and state is separate, I will
>    have no objection. I think it is a joke when American Jews or
>    better Jewish Americans struggle for the strict separation of
>    state and religion in the US while supporting racist Israel.

Israel can be considered racist only if you believe Jews are a race,
which Hitler believe, and is untrue. You can say Israel discriminates,
but don'r call it racist, or you lose a lot of credibility.


>5. The State of Israel will continue to face security problems as a
>   matter of course as long as it is perceived as an expansionist and
>   militaristic danger to the Arabs. Israel's refusal to define its

You know, this cuts two ways. Israel perceives the Arab regimes
like Syria and Iraq as threats to it.

>   ultimate borders, its numerous pre-emptive attacks on Arab territories,
>   its refusal to relinquish conquered areas and its active sollicitation

Regardless of whether Israel should give up the territories in the
name of peace, since *WHEN* in all history has a state had togive up
lands conquered in war, when it *won* the war, and it was a 
defensive war to begin with?!?!?

>    of them is democratic. But the Arab people (as distinct from 
>   governments) cannot but see the injustice done by the Zionist state
>   to the Palestinians. This injustice has to be reparied by the Zionists
>   if peace can prevail. Peace will not come from the guns.

Or rocks and knives.

--
cubsfan@camelot.bradley.edu

"One likes to believe in the freedom of baseball" - Geddy Lee
From: backon@vms.huji.ac.il
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Israeli Nazism?
Date: 6 Jan 93 07:03:02 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: The Hebrew University of Jerusalem

In article <C0EAKH.sI@techbook.com>, gummitch@techbook.com (Jeff Frane) writes:
> dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) writes:
>
>
>>As to the major characteristic of Nazi terror, mass murder of
>>civilians with poison gas, it was practiced in the mideast only
>>by Arabs against other Arabs (Iraq and Egypt).
>
> One small quibble, Danny: the Iraqis were using poison gas on Kurds, and
> it is my understanding (correct me, please, if I'm wrong) that Kurds are
> not Arabs.  This is not, obviously, intended to excuse such an outrage
> but I find the frequent accusation that Arabs perform atrocities on
> other Arabs to have unfortunate overtones of ethnocentricity.
>
> For my own interest, I'd like to know what you mean about the reference
> to Egypt.  Iraqi use of gas is pretty well established and familiar, due
> to news reports, but I hadn't heard anything about the Egyptians.

Jeff,

I *believe* that the Egyptians used poison gas (mustard gas ??) against Yemen
in either the late 1950's or early 1960's in one of the (many) wars fought
between Arabs in the mideast.

Josh
backon@VMS.HUJI.AC.IL




>
> --Jeff Frane
>
> --
> gummitch@techbook.COM  Public Access UNIX at (503) 220-0636 (1200/2400)
>
>
From: jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk (Jeremy Henderson)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Civilized behaviour
Date: 6 Jan 93 14:40:46 GMT
Organization: Edinburgh University

In article <43093@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> revans@euclid.ucsd.edu (Ron Evans) writes:
~<29920@castle.ed.ac.uk> jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk (Jeremy Henderson) writes:
~	What a great line this would have been for the San Francisco
~        DA to deliver to Clint Eastwood's character
~	Detective Harry Callahan ("Dirty Harry").
~	A killer announced that he had buried a young girl
~	alive and that her oxygen was running out.  When Harry finally
~	caught up with him, the psycho refused to reveal the girl's
~	location and kept screaming about the violation of his
~        rights until Harry tortured him.  Why couldn't Harry have
~	set his sights a tiny bit higher?
~	Incidentally, it was too late to save the girl, and the
~	killer was released because evidence obtained under torture
~	was inadmissible.  He later commandeered a school bus 
~	and...well, I won't ruin the ending.

At last it becomes clear where Mr. Evans gets his remarkable view of the
world - from watching Hollywood thrillers! Well, sorry to disappoint you,
Ron, but the stuff you saw on the screen *isn't real*!! It's a blow, I
know, but hopefully you'll come to terms with it one day.




-- 
===Jeremy Henderson===jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk=          

This message cost the net hundreds if not thousands of dollars.
Bloody good value if you ask me.
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