HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Thu, 8 Oct 1992 15:15:58 CST
From:         Tom Purcell <GE0110@SIUCVMB.BITNET>
Subject:      Age of the universe.....

An often quoted estimate of the age of things is based on the calculations
of Bishop James Ussher (1581-1656).  He concluded that the earth was
created at midday on Octobber 23 in 4004 BC.  Although his estimations
are not taken seriously by many, he is still often quoted.  I would
recommend an article entitled, "Fall in the House of Ussher" in the
November, 1991 issue of "Natural History".  It seems to be a good account
of how Bishop Ussher went about his calculations and suggests that for
the period, it wasn't quite as bad as it is now considered to be by many.

Nobody really knows how old the world (universe, earth, etc) is in my
opinion, although scientific estimates, I believe are up to 4 billion
for the earth and up to 10 or 20 billion for the universe.

Who knows?
From: tjbenner@COLBY.EDU ((Toni J. Benner))
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: WOW!
Date: 7 Oct 92 18:07:03 GMT
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Dear Ian,

Congratulations,  and I will be praying for you, Chellon, and the baby. When
is the due date?

Yours in Christ,
Toni Benner
From: ICH529@DJUKFA11.BITNET (Matthias Radke)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: Another baby (was Re: HOWDY)
Date: 12 Oct 92 09:21:01 GMT
 <1992Oct12.080425.27015@wega.rz.uni-ulm.de>
Organization: Forschungszentrum Juelich

In article <1992Oct12.080425.27015@wega.rz.uni-ulm.de>,
HUTTER@rzmain.rz.uni-ulm.de (Wolfgang Hutter) says:
>
>While I was reading all the congratulations and prayer promises to Ian,
>
My best wishes to Ian and his wife are extended to Wolfgang and his wife
and to all who might be facing the same situation. :-)  Matthias
From: ewanco@MLO.DEC.COM (Eric James Ewanco)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: CRJ
Date: 14 Oct 92 19:22:02 GMT
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Now I remember where I saw a negative article on CRJ.

A Catholic apologetics magazine had an article about an anti-Catholic,
anti-Marian article they featured in that magazine that was inaccurate
and misrepresented the facts.

That's the bad reference I remembered to CRJ.

Eric
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Fri, 16 Oct 1992 02:01:13 EDT
From:         JEK@NIHCU.BITNET
Subject:      Ignatius of Antioch (17 Oct)

IGNATIUS OF ANTIOCH, BISHOP AND MARTYR (17 OCT)

October 17 is the feast of Ignatius of Antioch.

Ignatius was the second bishop of Antioch in Syria.  Whether he knew
any of the Apostles directly is uncertain.  Little is known of his
life except for the very end of it.  Early in the second century
(perhaps around 107 AD, during the reign of the Emperor Trajan), he
was arrested by the Imperial authorities, condemned to death, and
transported to Rome to die in the arena.  By thus dealing with a
leader, the rulers hoped to terrify the rank and file. Instead,
Ignatius took the opportunity to encourage them, speaking to groups
of Christians at every town along the way. When the prison escort
reached the west coast of Asia Minor, it halted before taking ship,
and delegations from several Asian churches were able to visit
Ignatius, to speak with him at length, to assist him with items for
his journey, and to bid him an affectionate farewell and commend him
to the grace of God.  In response he wrote seven letters that have
been preserved: five to congregations that had greeted him, en masse
or by delegates (Ephesians, Magnesians, Trallians, Philadelphians,
and Smyrnaeans), one to the congregation that would greet him at his
destination (Romans), and one to Polycarp, Bishop of Smyrna and
disciple of the Apostle John.
      His letters are available in several modern translations.
Perhaps the most accessible is the Penguin Paperback, EARLY
CHRISTIAN WRITINGS, translated by Maxwell Staniforth.  The themes
with which he is chiefly concerned are (1) the importance of
maintaining Christian unity in love and sound doctrine (with
warnings against factionalism and against the heresy of Docetism --
the belief that Christ was not fully human and did not have a
material body or really suffer and die), (2) the role of the clergy
as a focus of that unity, (3) Christian martyrdom as a glorious
privilege, eagerly to be grasped.

He writes: "I am God's wheat, ground fine by the lion's teeth to be
made purest bread for Christ."

PRAYER
   Almighty God, we praise thy name for thy bishop and martyr
   Ignatius of Antioch, who offered himself as grain to be ground
   by the teeth of wild beasts that he might present unto thee the
   pure bread of sacrifice. Accept, we pray thee, the willing
   tribute of our lives, and give us a share in the pure and
   spotless offering of thy Son Jesus Christ; who liveth and
   reigneth with thee and the Holy Spirit, one God, for ever and
   ever.
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From: A16905@ITESO.BITNET
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: vision
Date: 16 Oct 92 16:33:38 GMT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU

I was warned by the Lord a month ago about a spiritual war time here in my
city, satanic murders are coming soon, they are acting now in a small city
near here (San Juan de los lagos) and the Lord said they will come here
soon, I listened in the radio about a secret cementery discovered here with
some satanic and witchcrat symbols and objects all arround, perhaps it is
the begining. The Lord wants me to combat this (not alone, obviously) but
for now, things are quiet.

Shalom,
Memo.
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Fri, 16 Oct 1992 10:56:56 -0400
From:         Eric James Ewanco <ewanco@MLO.DEC.COM>
Subject:      Re: Ways to evangelize

I definitely agree that "relational evangelism" (getting to know people
and bringing them into the faith as friends) is much more fruitful and
deserves our attention more than "information evangelism" (passing out
tracts).

First of all, Jesus said, "Go into all the world and make disciples of
all nations . . ." Make DISCIPLES.  Not, 'Pass out tracts' or 'Warn
people they are going to hell', but _make disciples_.

We are called to use evangelism to make disciples -- we need to not only
share the Gospel with people, but also bring them into a strong persoal
relationship with other Christians, and fill their other needs, and then
teach them to be able to do the same thing.  It's like, give a man a
fish, you feed him for a day; teach a man to fish,  you feed him for a
lifetime.

Jesus  not only fulfilled people's spiritual needs, but also their
physical  needs; he healed people, fed people, loved people.  We, too,
should do the same.

I think this is where cell groups can come in handy.  They provide a
better means of making disciples.  While I don't agree with the BCC
style someone described, I think the idea itself is good.

People today are hungering not only spiritually, but also emotionally
for strong, trustworthy personal relationships.  People need support.
We are called to be Christ to one another, not simply tell them, 'Oh,
Jesus will take care of you, talk to him.'  WE are Jesus; WE are to be
Christ to them, so we ourselves must also love them, listen to them, and
give them support. (Certainly Jesus does this better, but that does not
excuse us from doing it as well.)

Eric
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Fri, 16 Oct 1992 08:16:51 CDT
From:         Jesse Carnes <NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: That P' word again
              16 Oct 1992 08:14:33 -0500 from <BKCOBB@LIFE.UAMS.EDU>

Dear Brian ;

Nice "Utilitarian" argument but Biblical it is not.
Let God be God.
Many times, many people's arguments AGAINST the "P" word is that they
REALLY believe that they DESERVEto be saved from God's wrath and the power
of sin.
So SAD for God's grace :-(


Jesse
From: NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET (Jesse Carnes)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: God and logic.
Date: 15 Oct 92 13:38:40 GMT
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              15 Oct 1992 07:39:00 EST from <GRAHAM%DRCV06.decnet@DRCVAX.AF.MIL>

Dear St. Dan of Grahamcracker ;

When you see that verse in the O.T. which says "My thoughts are not your
thoughts ..." the context  speaks connotatively of INTENTIONS of a sinful
Nation : Israel.  The context is not speaking Denotatively of subject-verb
grammatical construction within thoughts or spoken sentences.
Let the context define the terms.


BTW, Logic can and does lead us to God, for Christ is the LOGOS.
Biblical logic is not based upon the darkened reasoning of an unregenerate
person, but is based upon Scriptural data and this data implemented in
micro and macro context.  Thus the Analogy of Scripture is employed to
fit the pieces, as it were, together.



St. Jesso of Esso (same ol' gas)
From: ohoward@matt.ksu.ksu.edu (Todd Howard)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: Is God Evil?
Date: 9 Oct 1992 07:55:24 -0500
Organization: Kansas State University
NNTP-Posting-Host: matt.ksu.ksu.edu

Angela Zimmerman <AMZIMM01@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU> writes:

>Item Retrieval Assistant, DADS
>Phone: 588-6757


>>Alot of people think that to repent means to be ashamed of or to be sorry for
>>but repent means to "turn away from".   God was angry but he turned away from
>>his anger due to the prayers of ....


>God was angry?  Maybe I'm mistaken, but isn't anger one of the Seven
>Deadly Sins?

Yes.  But not righteous anger.  God was angry with the Israelites for
not obeying him (yet again).  Christians too can have this anger, but all
too often it can become an excuse for YAF (Yet Another Fight--physical,
social, or mental).

Todd
-- 
 "The statistics on death are in, and they're pretty convincing.  One out
  of every one people die."   -Unknown

Todd O. Howard (ohoward@matt.ksu.edu)
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Wed, 7 Oct 1992 09:29:40 CDT
From:         JRALLS@TRINITY.BITNET
Subject:      a question about Josh

I've been wondering--is Josh McDowell any better at fund raising
than he is at apologetics? He does a great deal of advertising on
the radio here in San Antonio for sending food and literature to
Russia and I wonder if anyone knows anything about the effectiveness
of this part of his ministry. I know things don't get done for free,
but whenever I hear him on the radio , he is always after money.
Just curious...

JoEllen Ralls                       Jralls@trinity (Bitnet)
Elizabeth Coates Maddux Library     Jralls@trinity.edu (Internet)
Trinity University                  so many books,
San Antonio, Texas                          so little time...
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Mon, 12 Oct 1992 08:31:50 CDT
From:         Jesse Carnes <NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      re: Baptismal Regeneration?

Dear Nabil ;

To which Tom were you referring?
A bit more specific if we are goin' to name drop ... ok?

Ye`shy
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
From: nabil@cae.wisc.edu (Nabil Ayoub)
Subject: Re:      re: Baptismal Regeneration?
Organization: U of Wisconsin-Madison College of Engineering
Date: 12 Oct 92 12:41:54 CDT

In article <CHRISTIA%92101208242401@ASUACAD.BITNET> Jesse Carnes <NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET> writes:
>Dear Nabil ;
>
>To which Tom were you referring?
>A bit more specific if we are goin' to name drop ... ok?
>
>Ye`shy

Hello Jesse,

I did not refer to any specific person. I just quoted a part of Brad's
earlier posting and for the record, I am reposting what I quoted earlier
on. I think Brad was referring explicitly to Tom Brewer. However, I did
*not* single him or any other person out.

------------ Repost ------------
In article <9210071657.AA19892@motgate.mot.com> bradk%isdgsm@rtsg.mot.com writes
:
>Tom Brewer writes yet another attack on Catholic theology, this time
>referring to Catholic beliefs regarding baptism.
>
>Since the beliefs of Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Anglicans, and
>Lutherans (and maybe some Presbyterians & Methodists?) regarding
>baptism are virtually identical (as far as I can tell), perhaps Tom
>should include them as well, and title his thread "Confused
>Christianity".

[ Excellent reply deleted ]

Brad, it is time for our brethren in the Protestant chruch to realize
that these attacks (that never cease btw) are attacks against *mainstream*

[rest of my article deleted]

------------ End of Repost ------------

Irene pasi,

Nabil
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
From: jmrg9881@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Jon Reid)
Subject: Cell Group Churches -- contrasted with "normal" churches
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1992 21:31:45 GMT

Here's a chart outlining some of the differences between cell group
churches and traditional, building-based, program-based churches:


        NEW TESTAMENT CHURCH            CHURCH OF TODAY
        --------------------            ---------------

Location
        Meets in houses and buildings   Meets mainly in church buildings

Size Of Groups
        Small, intimate groups          Large, impersonal groups

Activities
        Daily fellowship                Weekly worship services

Support System
        Building up one another         Problem? See the pastor

Relationships
        Intimate; Helping one another   Remote; Little transparency

Discipling
        Groups of 2-3;                  Classes, notebooks;
        Modeling;                       Little modeling;
        Personal values shaped          Values not shaped

Primary Tasks Of Leaders
        Equipping every believer to     Directing the traditional
        do the work of the ministry     building-based church

Prayer Life
        Daily; Together, purposeful     Limited, directionless;
                                        Individual choice

Pastor's Duty
        Model the life of a believer    Preach good sermons

Expectations Of Members
        Ministering to others; Total    Attendance; Tithing;
        servanthood and stewardship     Work in the "programs"

Perspective
        Small Groups the focal point    Congregation the focal point

Key Words
        "Go and make disciples"         "Come and grow with us"

Teachings
        Apply the Scripture to needs    Subscribe to the distinctive
        and relationships               beliefs of this church

Spiritual Gifts
        Regularly exercised by all      Either downplayed or often used as
        believers to build up others    a "crowd-pleaser" in public
        in the Small Group gatherings   services

Commitment
        To increase the Kingdom;        To enlarge the institution;
        Unity, Body life                Uniformity

Evaluation Test
        "How you serve"                 "What you know"

Source For Securing Staff
        Servant workers developed       Trained, professional clergy
        within; Tested before they
        are set apart for ministry


Taken from _Where Do We Go From Here?_ by Ralph Neighbour
(Touch Publications / 1-800-735-5865)

-- 
Jon Reid    j-reid@uiuc.edu    GEnie: THE.REIDS
"He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose."
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Fri, 9 Oct 1992 09:21:10 CST
From:         Tom Purcell <GE0110@SIUCVMB.BITNET>
Subject:      Authority - issues

Questions have been raised regarding law and morality.  Allow me to
introduce a question about which I have pondered on occasion - and argued
with a friend who has different views.  My friend, I belive quoting from
Romans 13:1-3 or thereabouts, believes that all authority must be obeyed
since it all comes from God.  He belives, for example, that the Revolutionary
War  (US) was an immoral war based on such thinking.  My own views presume
that in our form of government, authority derives from the citizens rather
than from our rulers.  Thus, we as citizens are the ultimate authority
in our system of governance.  In any event, it is a topic of some considerable
importance in my opinion as Christians cope in legal systems, many of which
are in violation of the principles of many Christians.  Abortion, service
in the military in a war judged to be immoral, and many other issues are
of this type in which basic moral values and governmental positions are in
conflict.

How then shall we deal with Romans 13:1-3?  What do you think?
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Date:         Thu, 8 Oct 1992 22:56:46 EDT
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From:         Angela Zimmerman <AMZIMM01@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU>
Subject:      Re:statute law as moral standard

Item Retrieval Assistant, DADS
Phone: 588-6757


> > If you want my code on how to live, my rules,
> > all you have to do is look at the law books.

>Does this mean, Angela, that you would never consider that a
>particular law was unjust, and that it was your duty to break it? Do

Uh, no.  If I consider a law unjust, I try to change it, rather than
break it.  After all, it's better to work for something than against something.

>you hold that there is no moral standard higher than the law of the
>land, and that therefore if the laws forbid some action (say
>abortion, or picketing abortion clinics, or holding slaves, or
>assisting slaves to escape), the mere fact of that the law says so
>makes it right? Or do you perhaps think that there is a standard of
>justice other than the law-books, but that the laws of this land do
>a pretty good job of conforming to that standard? Are all nations so
>blessed, or just some, and if so, which ones? Are there any
>governments (Hitler's or Stalin's) which it would be a duty to
>resist?

This one is hard to answer.  I'd be lying if I said that Christianity
didn't have an impact on how I believe.  I think that what I believe
is based mainly on what I've been exposed to throughout my life, and
what I think of as being "just" and "unjust" (speaking of that, does
justice really exist?).  I think it is the same way with everyone,
even Christians.  I don't think there's a person on this list that
can say that they follow *everything* that the bible says to do and
not do, but most do use the bible for guidance in their beliefs.  In
addition to the bible, I think just about everyone would almost have to
admit that some of your beliefs are formed from within you rather than
from what the bible says.  I just take the bible out of my beliefs.
This is really difficult to explain.  If you're as confused as I am,
ask more questions and I'll try to answer them.
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Organization: Emory University - Atlanta, Georgia, USA
X-Acknowledge-To: <LIBSAC@EMUVM1>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Thu, 8 Oct 1992 05:12:07 EDT
From:         "SHELBY A. CROSS" <LIBSAC@EMUVM1.BITNET>
Subject:      THANK YOU - LIZ MOREAU

Greetings in Jesus Name!

Thank you so much for the information regarding the archives for the
testimonies.  I've been working alot lately and haven't had a chance
to use it yet, but soon as I get a break I will.  Pray for me as I
will be praying for you.

God Bless You,

Shelby --  Atlanta, Georgia
From: HUTTER@DULRUU51.BITNET (Wolfgang Hutter)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Convolution of Rom.7 (was: Re: New nature vs. two natures)
Date: 15 Oct 92 08:34:00 GMT
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Original_To:  CHRISTIA
Original_cc:  HUTTER

In a message of Fri, 9 Oct 1992 18:38:38 -0700
Received on Wed, 14 Oct 92 15:08 N
(MARK DRAKE) <DRAKE@ASUCHM.LA.ASU.EDU> wrote:

> [sometimes I wonder if the preceeding pasage is less convoluted, or
> obtuse, in greek than it is in English.  How does it come out in
> Spanish or German?]

I can find no significant difference in German. Sorry!

Wolfgang <><
From: YST1@DCCCDBIT.BITNET (Yvette Traylor)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: CRJ(How do one subscribe?) & other things...
Date: 15 Oct 92 20:11:46 GMT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU

>
> BTW: the next CRJ featured letters from outraged people cancelling their
> subscriptions because of his article.  I guess that goes along with those
> that cancelled because of the Marian visitation stuff.  No doubt they'll lose
> people because of their stand against Benny Hinn & the Word-Faith teachings
> plus their articles about the "a" word (abortion - oops!) plus their recent
> article about the "h" word (homosexuality).  But it's their willingness to
> take a stand that keeps me supporting them and reading the Journal.  End
> editorial.


 Steven,
Well, I am personally looking forward to subscribing to CRJ. And by the
way, I would still like to see the article on NDE'S, as soon as you
finish it.

   Yvette Traylor     "We are His people and the sheep of his pasture."
   Dallas County Community College District             Psalm 100:3
   Computer Programmer/Analyst from Dallas - Texas
"I know worse things about myself that you will ever say about me." Anon
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From: H8GQC@QCVAXA.BITNET (David Moreau)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Subscribing to NT-Greek list
Date: 15 Oct 92 19:19:17 GMT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU


  How do I subscribe to the NT Greek list.  I used to know such
things, but I have become rusty in my internet/bitnet skills.  I know
that I can't subscribe interactively (my favorite way).  Thanks in
advance,


  David Moreau
  h8gqc@qcvaxa.acc.qc.edu
        qcunix.acc.qc.edu
       {cunyvm.cuny.??? (I always forget this address)}
  dmoreau@drunivac.drew.edu
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Date:         Wed, 7 Oct 1992 15:41:48 EDT
From:         Bernice Tennant <U1A9A@WVNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: WOW!

Wonderful news Ian.  May God bless you.

Your friend in Christ, Bernice
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia