From: faris@sarcasm.trl.OZ.AU (Aziz Faris)
Subject: Re: Reason vs. Morals
Reply-To: a.Faris@trl.oz.au 
Organization: Telecom Research Labs, Melbourne,Australia
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1992 01:31:11 GMT

In article <1992Oct7.041603.20505@cs.umb.edu>, ahmad@ra.cs.umb.edu (Ahmad |>
 
|> You are making several points in your msg, Aziz.  They are all important, of 
|> course, and I can refute them all, of course <GRIN>, but due to time 
|> constraints I will only go over some of them.
|> 
|> It is not an all-or-nothing matter.  Hobbes paved the way for Western 
|> individualism when, during his account of the human nature, he only saw
|> the selfish/individualistic side.  Well, there is another side to the human
|> nature--the communal side, that Hobbes failed to see.  As the Arabs say 
|> in their proverb "Jannah bala nas ma btindas" [a paradise without company 
|> is like hell].  Humans find a kind of peace in belonging to a warm family
|> and a loving community.
|> 
|> Humanistic psychologists (Abraham Maslow, for example) have distinguished
|> between the individual's "higher" and "lower" needs, and talked about a
|> hierarchy in which needs have to be satisfied, in this order:
|> 
|>  - Physiological needs (e.g., food, water, sleep, sex)
|>  - Safety (e.g., structure, security, predictability)
|>  - Belongingness and love
|>  - Esteem (e.g., recognition, acceptance, confidence)
|>  - Self-actualization (e.g., full knowledge, expression of human potential).
|> 
|> Note that belongingness and love occupy an important place--one that Hobbes 
|> did not think about.
|> 
|> Islam, being revealed by the Creator Himself, takes both sides of our
|> human nature into account.  It encourages familial, social, communal ties,
|> and at the same time allows enough room for competition.

Where I am coming from, Ahmad, is that individualistic competition will lead
a person to be in a state of war with everything around him. I know for a fact
that people cannot live in that mode, otherwise, we will easily kill each other.
Some western societies use that approach more than others. European societies
tend to be less indiviualistic and more social, thats also the case here in
Australia. I think that Hobbes's thinking probably takes into account some
aspects of evolution where indvidualistic competition is a central point.

All religions encourage family, social, and communal ties. Christianity goes
one step further than Judaism in establishing those ties among larger groups
and communities. Islam goes even further by establishing those principles
across what the other religions consider international boundaries, and will 
result in less competition than what is encountered in Christianity at least.

|> 
|> >Adherence to reason does abolish morality. The greatest proof is the former
|> >soviet union. The soviets developed a society that was solely based on
|> >philosophical reasoning fueled by Communist ideals.
|> 
|> I truly fail to see how this "proves" that adherence to reason does abolish 
|> morality.  It proves, if anything, that one without the other does not work,
|> which is precisely MY original point!!!

If a society were to stricly adhere to a code of philosophical reasoning without
any moral codes or obligations, than morality will not be practiced. Therefore,
such a society will abolish all moral codes over time, and reasoning will
dictate every aspect of life in that society. All anthropological findings
indicate that early man did not have the same moral obligations as we have
come to know. at that time reasoning to survive was the law for society.
Morality is a code of ethics that has evoloved with time and has been largely
driven by religious beleif. A primary reason that we presently adhere to
reason and morality nowadays are due to religious beleif, laws, and social
values that shaped our upbringing.

|> 
|> >[Islam] is not and will never be practiced based on reasoning and morality.
|> 
|> I fail to see how/why.  And I fail to see how the above squares with your
|> saying the following:
|> 
|> >I think Islam tends to be more idealistic and seems to bond reason and
|> >morality
|> 
|> I'm not sure I'm following your line of reasoning there.

MY reasoning is as follows: Survival, invidualistic thinking, and protection of
our way of life are the central issues that will make us deviate from practicing
reaoning and morality.Every society is driven by competitive forces that will
make it very difficult for any person to practice any religion the way it was
intended. Furthermore, the nature of the penality and the way you perceive you
will be judged strongly influence how much a person deviates. My perception is
that in Islam the penalties are greater than the penalities that Christianity
administers. Consequently, I say it is impossible to practice Islam or any
religion on the basis of true reasoning and true morality. A person will always
break the rules and cut corners when faced with the above issues.


|> 
|> >I veiw Islam as another religion that attempted to tame the competitive 
|> >nature of the human race.
|> 
|> Well, as I said above, we seem to have different views on the nature of the
|> human race.  It's not all-bad, according to my understanding of Islam.  This
|> is important and is different from other religions' views on the human nature.
|> For example, the early American preacher Jonathan Edwards wrote:
|> "we are sinners in the hands of an angry God."  Islam seems to say that
|> we have our positive and our negative aspects "By the soul, and the proportion 
|> and order given to it; and its ENLIGHTENMENT AS TO ITS WRONG AND ITS RIGHT;
|> truly he succeeds that purifies it!" (91:7-9).  Islam aims at helping
|> us purifying our souls, by taming our competitive nature, if you will, AND,
|> AT THE SAME TIME, by cultivating the other side of our nature.  Hence, Islam
|> is the true religion of Fitra (human nature) because it takes both sides
|> into account.

I do not disagree with you that Islam does not take both sides into account.
As I said all religions attempt to do so, Islam comes closer than the others
in bonding reasoning and morality. However, as I said above a person cannot
practice both simultaniously at all times. You might think you do, but I say
you have not been faced with the situation that will make deviate yet.

|> 
|> >A.Faris
|> 
|> Ahmad Hashem

A.FAris