HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: tai@ailab.ncsu.edu (Scott A Tai)
Subject: t-- Re: t// Re: REC.ORG.MENSA TODAY
Originator: tai@ailab.ncsu.edu
Reply-To: tai@ailab.ncsu.edu (Scott A Tai)
Organization: NCSU Artificial Intelligence Systems Laboratory
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 22:52:16 GMT


mike_steiner@qm.claris.com (Mike Steiner) writes:
|> > You're not more intelligent; you simply scored higher on a test
|> > whose validity is questionable.
|> 
|> A contention that you continually repeat, but always fail to prove.

You want proof?  You got it :)

Alfred Binet, the creator of one of the IQ tests (which was misinterpreted
and exploited in the US to become the "Stanford-Binet") insisted on three 
cardinal principles for using IQ tests:  

1.  The tests are a practical device; they do not buttress any
    theory of intellect.  They do not define anything innate or
    permanent.  We may not designate what they measure as "intelligence"
    or any other reified entity.

2.  The scale is a rough, empirical guide for identifying mildly
    retarded and learning-disabled children who need special help.  It
    is NOT A DEVICE FOR RANKING NORMAL CHILDREN.

3.  Whatever the cause of difficulty in children identified for help,
    emphasis shall be placed on improvement through special training.
    LOW SCORES SHALL NOT BE USED TO MARK CHILDREN AS INNATELY INCAPABLE.

(from S. Gould's "The Mismeasure of Man", 1986)

     "The scale, properly speaking, does not permit the measure
     of intelligence, because intellectual qualities are not
     superposable, and therefore cannot be measured as linear
     surfaces are measured..."
                              
(Alfred Binet, writing in 1905)

By your own standards, I am a "very intelligent" person with the scores to 
prove it.  But I do not fool myself into believing that high scores on ANY 
test are a mark of anything except good performance on ONE test, in ONE
instance.  I intend to prove my worth in the real world.  I will not be one 
who uses a standardized test to prove my worth in the midst of failure and 
sloth.

Also, I'd to question the hilarious comment in MENSA books that MENSA is 
indicative of some kind of "table" where ethnicity and race make no 
difference.  I will not deny the "table" part, but...

--
Scott Tai -- tai@ailab.ncsu.edu
NCSU Artificial Intelligence Lab
Centennial Campus
From: mike_steiner@qm.claris.com (Mike Steiner)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: T/ Who ya gonna vote for? (was: Re: Statistics ...)
Date: 29 Sep 92 17:57:26 GMT

In article <1u4NRB2w165w@psyline.nl>, psyline@psyline.nl (Theo Bogels) writes:

> In my view the way American politicians (either side) try to sell 
> themselves by devaluating their opponents is absolutely ridiculous. But 
> when I see the audience on a "Oprah Winfrey Show" (that reached The 
> Netherlands through Luxembourg) I can understand it. I often get the 
> impression that Oprah's audience are imported from the Middle Ages. I 
> hope they aren't a good sample of "Americans in general".

They are representative of "Americans who will do or say anything in
order to get on the Oprah Winfrey Show."
From: rhs@world.std.com (Richard H Schwartz)
Subject: Re: REC.ORG.MENSA TODAY
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 23:52:10 GMT

jswthomp@milton.u.washington.edu (James Thompson) writes:

>Hold it.  Reality check time.

>According to many of the posts I've seen here, by Mensans defending the fact
>that Mensa doesn't accomplish anything, Mensa IS nothing more than a social
>club.  If you want to be considered significant, you have to DO something
>significant.

Mensa is significant because it keeps us Mensans off the streets.

-rich




-- 
             Richard H. Schwartz, Scheduling Systems Inc.,
            1000 Massachusetts Avenue, Cambridge, MA  02138
                  (617) 864 8330; FAX (617) 864 8377
                          rhs@world.std.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: tai@ailab.ncsu.edu (Scott A Tai)
Subject: t// Re: REC.ORG.MENSA TODAY
Originator: tai@ailab.ncsu.edu
Reply-To: tai@ailab.ncsu.edu (Scott A Tai)
Organization: NCSU Artificial Intelligence Systems Laboratory
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 22:17:18 GMT


jswthomp@milton.u.washington.edu (James Thompson) writes:

|> Hold it.  Reality check time.
|> 
|> According to many of the posts I've seen here, by Mensans defending the fact
|> that Mensa doesn't accomplish anything, Mensa IS nothing more than a social
|> club.  If you want to be considered significant, you have to DO something
|> significant.
|> 
|> Of course, there's nothing wrong with being a social club.  People need
|> social clubs.  Even if they're smart.  [Even if they're weird.]  It's just a
|> little silly to get defensive when somebody says that that's all Mensa is.
|> What do you want it to be?

This claim of joining MENSA for social reasons has always sounded hollow. 
First, any area large enough for a MENSA chapter will also have any number 
of other clubs, and any interest club on an intellectual subject will be 
overloaded with intelligent people. Second, unless one is a gross 
underachiever, anyone bright enough to qualify for MENSA will be 
surrounded by intelligent people at college or at work. 

--
Scott Tai -- tai@ailab.ncsu.edu
NCSU Artificial Intelligence Systems
Centennial Campus
From: mai@ailab.ncsu.edu (Mai Tai)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Meaning of Intelligence
Date: 2 Oct 92 00:17:31 GMT
Reply-To: mai@ailab.ncsu.edu (Mai Tai)
Organization: NCSU Artificial Intelligence Systems Laboratory



Mensa's entrance qualifications depend directly on your scores from IQ
tests.  *Someone* in Mensa must have the idea that intelligence and
scores on standardized tests are somehow highly correlated.  If you
only had that piece of information about a person, how could you say
with any assurance that he or she could *act* like an "intelligent
person"?  (You can't.)

Part of intelligence is the ability to interact with other human beings
in a composed and relaxed manner.  I've often found this ability lacking
in Mensa members.  The only real way to find intelligent people is to
search for them, because intelligence has different meanings to different
people.

rec.org.mensa may be the place for you to search, but only if you believe
that intelligence can be defined by one's syllogism-forming and
pattern-matching ability on a multiple-choice IQ test.

All the Mensa people I've known have been hopeless socially and stuffed
to the gills with ego.  I've often thought of membership in Mensa as a
convenient method of separating the people I don't want to deal with,
much the way I view fraternities and sororities.

Mai
From: clong@remus.rutgers.edu (Chris Long)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: Famous Mensans
Date: 1 Oct 92 16:15:29 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

In article <BvG0I3.93t@news.larc.nasa.gov>, Steve Yaros writes:
> All right...at the risk of boring you all with repetition, this card-carrying
> Mensan would like to ask for the names of famous Mensans.  I was asked for
> this info and came up with a near blank.

Since the person asking this question probably has no way of checking
the truth of your statement, I'd probably start naming names off the
top of my head, like Clint Eastwood, Madonna, Wayne Gretzky, Gerald
Ford.
-- 
Chris Long, 265 Old York Rd., Bridgewater, NJ  08807-2618
From: gmark@cbnewse.cb.att.com (gilbert.m.stewart)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: t// Re: REC.ORG.MENSA TODAY
Date: 30 Sep 92 16:11:20 GMT
Article-I.D.: cbnewse.1992Sep30.161120.25096
Organization: AT&T

In article <1992Sep29.221718.10324@ncsu.edu> tai@ailab.ncsu.edu (Scott A Tai) writes:
>
>This claim of joining MENSA for social reasons has always sounded hollow. 

It very well may sound hollow to you, but your personal opinion is,
but its very nature, subjective, and therefore irrelevant, you'll have
to agree.  After all, your opinion is only valid for you, just as the
opinion of people who enjoy Mensa for its social aspect is for them.
It just is, period.  Incidentally, since Mensa isn't an acronym, you
know it isn't all caps.

>First, any area large enough for a MENSA chapter will also have any number 
>of other clubs, and any interest club on an intellectual subject will be 
>overloaded with intelligent people. Second, unless one is a gross 
>underachiever, anyone bright enough to qualify for MENSA will be 
>surrounded by intelligent people at college or at work. 

Why do I need to go to parties with people only at work?  Why
would I want to limit myself?  That's probably worse than
limiting myself to only going to Mensa parties.

You should be smart enough to already have predicted these rather
obvious counter-arguments.  It's kind of tiresome to see posts
that are generated without much forethought.

GMS
From: bernard@sirius.gte.com (Bernard Silver)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: "wrong" answers on IQ tests
Date: 28 Sep 92 15:13:13 GMT
Organization: GTE Laboratories Incorporated
In-reply-to: ts@cup.portal.com's message of 27 Sep 92 04:49:13 GMT

In article <66679@cup.portal.com> ts@cup.portal.com (Tim W Smith) writes:

   I picked up a book called something like "Test Your IQ" or "Know You
   IQ" or something like that (clearly, the next book I should read is
   "How To Organize You Library"!).  I'm having a problem with the
   scoring -- several of their answers are wrong!

	[Example Deleted]

   I realize that such a test has very little validity, but I still would like
   to know how to score it.  Should I simply count it as if I got these questions
   right?  Should I remove these questions from the test, and scale everything
   else up to get back to the range of their scoring table?


Hmmm.  Your suggestions seem strange to me (especially as you note that
the test has little validity).  You should only count your answers as 
correct if you are willing to rexamine each answer that you got "right"
(i.e. agree with the book) and mark yourself wrong if you eventually come
up with a better answer.  Otherwise, your attitude is: "The book is right
on that one, wrong on that....  I got 100%!)

--
				Bernard Silver
				GTE Laboratories
				bsilver@gte.com
				(617) 466-2663
From: mike_steiner@qm.claris.com (Mike Steiner)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: t-- Re: t// Re: REC.ORG.MENSA TODAY
Date: 1 Oct 92 20:32:36 GMT

In article <1992Sep30.224346.29711@ncsu.edu>, tai@ailab.ncsu.edu (Scott A Tai) writes:
> 
> 
> mike_steiner@qm.claris.com (Mike Steiner) writes:
> |> > This claim of joining MENSA for social reasons has always sounded hollow. 
> |> > First, any area large enough for a MENSA chapter will also have any number 
> |> > of other clubs, and any interest club on an intellectual subject will be 
> |> > overloaded with intelligent people. Second, unless one is a gross 
> |> > underachiever, anyone bright enough to qualify for MENSA will be 
> |> > surrounded by intelligent people at college or at work. 
> |> 
> |> First, you are wrong.  
> 
> Okay, I'll bite.  How can a person's opinion be wrong?

You didn't voice it as an opinion; you presented it as a fact.  Further, an
opinion can be wrong when it is contrary to facts.  For instance, if you
wrote that in your opinion, the sun rises in the West; that opinion would be
wrong.
From: MS54240G@VTVM1.CC.VT.EDU
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: (none)
Date: 29 Sep 1992 23:58:28 -0500
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

the barber is female.  the person who stated the question to this group
erroneously added "her" to all the "himself"s and thereby made the
question impossible to solve.
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: mortenaa@Lise.Unit.NO (Morten Aagaard)
Subject: Re: Muchow D.: About Nothing
Organization: Norwegian Institue of Technology
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 92 10:01:29 GMT

There are two states:
{shaved,unshaved}

One operator:
{Barber(shaved)=false,Barber(unshaved)=true}

Problem:
Decide if either 
Barber(barber.state=shaved)=false
or Barber(barber.state=unshaved)=true
when barber.state is unknown

Conclusion:
Not sufficient information to solve problem.



Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: gmark@cbnewse.cb.att.com (gilbert.m.stewart)
Subject: Re: t-- Re: t// t// Re: REC.ORG.MENSA TODAY
Organization: AT&T
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 15:34:02 GMT

In article <1992Sep30.223210.29180@ncsu.edu> tai@ailab.ncsu.edu (Scott A Tai) writes:
>
>radams@BNR.CA (Rodney Adams) writes:
>|> |> |> >"Eric":
>|> |> |> >
>|> |> |> >You're not more intelligent; you simply scored higher on a test
>|> |> |> >whose validity is questionable.
>|> 
>|> In an earlier post, you implied that talk.philosophy.misc would be an 
>|> appropriate forum for your posts.  Are you not aware that logic is an 
>|> important part of philosophy?  If you think your above statement is logically
>|> valid, you should SERIOUSLY consider taking a course in logic.  If you do
>|> research for an AI lab, as your .signature would imply, logic should also
>|> prove a valuable skill to acquire.
>
>"Rodney":
>
>Well, I agree it was phrased in a very poor manner.  The truth be told, it
>was not the reply I had intended to post.  The intended reply was much more 
>matter-of-fact, and stated "You're not *necessarily* more intelligent..."
>Once I realized my mistake, there was no turning back, and I decided that I
>should stand by the post.

Scott, this reply is pretty reasonable.  However, you should have merely
reposted a correction stating what you intended.  Why stand by a post
merely because you fat-fingered a key?  We've all done it.  Just say
what you really want to say.

>
>|> Now, if IQ, as you assert, shows the potential for achievement (those with
>|> high IQ have the potential to succeed; those with low IQ do not), then why
>|> do you also insist that the validity of standardized tests is so questionable?
>
>No one can deny that minority groups in this country do poorly on standardized 
>intelligence tests, particularly on the SAT and PSAT.  Schools, universities, 
>and Old Guard fans everywhere use this to uphold their own racial stereotypes, 
>to label minority groups as "ineducable."  Personally, I have absolutely NO 
>doubt that blacks, hispanics, and other minorities are of EQUAL intelligence, 
>on average, to the average white.  I do not want to accuse MENSA of racism 
>here, but HOW THE HELL do you explain these testing differences?
>
>I do not believe that there *IS* a reasonable measure of intelligence.  
>But I do believe that success-in-life and overcoming adversity is a much 
>better "measure" than a test of dubious validity.

And this is an example of what I was telling you.  This is an exact
duplicate of a post of yours from several months back, and it was
ripped to shreds.  This is why your posts get boring.  Give us some
new stuff or post this in such a way to address what any person
of normal intelligence must know is the obvious response.  Save
time.  If it's important enough to say, cover the bases and say it
correctly and completely.  It will also be more informative for
new folks on this group.

Later.

GMS
From: mike_steiner@qm.claris.com (Mike Steiner)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: t-- t// Re: REC.ORG.MENSA TODAY
Date: 1 Oct 92 20:49:47 GMT

In article <1992Sep30.225822.432@ncsu.edu>, tai@ailab.ncsu.edu (Scott A Tai) writes:
> 
> 
> mike_steiner@qm.claris.com (Mike Steiner) writes:
> |> > Now if only it could keep you off the net... *sigh*
> |> 
> |> The net would be better off if *you* would keep off it.
> 
> "Mike":
> 
> Tell me why this group was BEGGING me to return, then :)

Since this group wasn't begging you to return, I can't tell
you why.

Some people in the group may have wanted you to return, and
if so, my hypothesis is that they were bored, and you're
always good for a couple of laughs.
From: gmark@cbnewse.cb.att.com (gilbert.m.stewart)
Subject: Re: t// Re: t-- Re: t// Re: REC.ORG.MENSA TODAY
Organization: AT&T
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 06:27:21 GMT

In article <1992Oct6.032108.29898@ncsu.edu> tai@ailab.ncsu.edu (Scott A Tai) writes:
>
>gmark@cbnewse.cb.att.com (gilbert.m.stewart) writes:
>|> Oh, don't misunderstand me, Eric.  I'm the first to admit that I
>|> am sarcastic a larger amount of the time than most, but I am perfectly
>|> serious about my guesses regarding Scott.  I don't like to engage in
>|> any kind of debate unless I'm almost completely positive about my
>|> position and the related facts.  This letter to Scott was my
>|> opinion and conjecture as to what could cause someone to post in
>|> the fashion he has.  I've had these suspicions and possibilities
>|> rattling around for a long time, and based upon the psychiatry
>|> aspects and what I've seen of other people who were mentally retarded
>|> or otherwise unstable or for that matter, merely very upset about
>|> something or very young, it's the suspicion I've had.
>
>Your suspicions are wrong.

If you are insane or retarded or disturbed, what possible purpose
could your post denying it serve, unless your goal is to entertain me?

If the latter, thank you.

GMS
From: gmark@cbnewse.cb.att.com (gilbert.m.stewart)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: t// Re: REC.ORG.MENSA TODAY
Date: 1 Oct 92 16:18:29 GMT
Organization: AT&T

In article <1992Oct1.091714.3985@tfs.com> ecsd@tfs.com (Eric C. S. Dynamic) writes:
>we should retire to the velvet-lined room where we recommence exploring the
>universe through each other, by *partying*, *drinking*, imbibing *chemicals
>and drugs*, having *Many hours* of *Hot and Heavy Sex*, etc.
>

I think if anyone can get Scott to accept that Mensans don't just hang
around talking about their test scores, you can, Eric.

GMS
From: tai@ailab.ncsu.edu (Scott A Tai)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: t// REC.ORG.MENSA TODAY - 09/28/92
Date: 29 Sep 92 00:35:39 GMT
Reply-To: tai@ailab.ncsu.edu (Scott A Tai)
Organization: NCSU Artificial Intelligence Systems Laboratory
Originator: tai@ailab.ncsu.edu


mcbeanb@brandonu.ca writes:

|> In article <1992Sep23.153523.26157@ncsu.edu>, tai@ailab.ncsu.edu (Scott A Tai) writes:
|> > 
|> > Heh... I'd say that the readers of rec.org.mensa are the ones who have
|> > undergone their own form of self-therapy.  *I* knew when I left what
|> > sort of lifeless, useless newsgroup this would become.  *You* didn't.
|> 
|> Hey, I knew that too, and I bet even Mensans knew it would happen.
|> All you had to do was remove all articles related to you, and you
|> get a pile of lifeless mush (for the most part (at least Tai
|> articles are mush with life)).

Hey, I really don't think the MENSA members were smart enough to know it 
would happen :)

|> > Anyways, I'm back, and I'm even ready for Mike Steiner's pathological
|> > outbursts of hate :)
|> 
|> You like the hatred, don't you?

Actually, no.  When I'm writing an article, I know that the MENSA gang
(led by Mike "Yo momma is a ...." Steiner, "Mr Kill File" Hollombe,
and others who joined for ego reasons) will seize any possible opportunity 
they can to criticize, insult, attack, put-down, and flat-out flame any 
part of the articles (not to mention their author) that dare to question 
any policy of MENSA or intelligence testing in general.

This is no definitive study here, but I have known enough people over enough 
time from enough places that a pattern is quite clear: MENSA is considered 
insignificant and ridiculous. Why should this be so?

--
Scott Tai -- tai@ailab.ncsu.edu
NCSU Artificial Intelligence Lab
Centennial Campus

   
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: crawdad@fncent (Matt Crawford)
Subject: And now for something completely different
Keywords: RG
Organization: FERMILAB, Batavia, IL
Distribution: na
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 02:37:47 GMT


Is anyone out there* coming to Chicago Area Mensa's RG, HalloweeM?
Ask around, it's one of the biggest and best RGs in the USA.  It will
be held at the O'Hare Ramada Inn October 30 to Nov 1.  I think the
at-the-door price is $45 and I know the RG room rate is $57/night for
a double.

Perhaps you enjoyed "Taste of HalloweeM" at either of the last two
AGs ...
			Matt Crawford

(* Besides YOU, lurker J.T.C. of A.T.T.!)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: yoo@netcom.com (Young-Kyu Yoo)
Subject: Re: Doubters Of Astrology
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1992 01:24:40 GMT

crawdad@fncent (Matt Crawford) writes:
>I claim that what I said above is evidence against the validity of
>such inferences as "Using occult system X, I produced startlingly
>accurate readings, therefore system X has power."

Read carefully please. 
I argued, "Using occult system X, I produced startlingly 
accurate readings, therefore *I* believe there may be validity to system X."

You said, "Using occult system X, I produced startingly accurate readings
and flim-flammed folks, but I never believed in cartomancy," implying:

	1) That there was something disingenuous about your readings.
	 
	OR

	2)  You don't accept the evidence of your own experience.

You cannot conclude, LOGICALLY :
	
	3)  Therefore, you cannot argue "Using system X, I produced 
	startlingly accurate readings, therefore system has power."
         (A irrelevant point in any case, since I did not make such an
	argument.)

>If you have a reading comprehension problem, you'd be well advised not to
>get into a flame war.

The problem's in the ambiguity of your rhetoric.  

There is nothing to indicate from the reasoning in your last posting
that your arguments will be bolstered by substantive logic.  
Of course, that's just one data point, and doesn't *prove* anything.

Cheers,
Young-Kyu
.

Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: not@ailab.ncsu.edu (N O Tai)
Subject: alt.tasteless perhaps?
Reply-To: not@ailab.ncsu.edu (N O Tai)
Organization: NCSU Artificial Intelligence Systems Laboratory
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 13:40:11 GMT


From the keyboard of ecsd@tfs.com (Eric C. S. Dynamic):

: The guy who does *not* intend to take a shit, does not see himself 
: at that moment of wondering why he has to sit on old dried urine at 
: other times.  Half a brain says lift the seat, but nooooooooooo he 
: can't bother with that.  Real bad for *scared to death of infection 
: and yukkies* like I was and still am somewhat.

What the hell does this have to do with Mensa?

I haven't seen much hostility towards Eric -- at least not nearly as
much as Scott Tai used to generate with his posts.  If Eric doesn't 
want to hear lovingly sarcastic opinions about his posts then he 
should keep them out of rec.org.mensa.

I think that the denizens of rec.org.mensa have been quite tolerant of
ecsd.  He's been cluttering up the group with private messages and
making ludicrous statements that positively invite someone to draw
their rapier and pink Eric a good one.

One suspects that the lack of response to Eric's posts is in part 
due to the fear that he is just rattling our collective cage, and one 
is still embarrassed from the last time one fell for a tongue-in-cheek
Mensa baiter.


Dr N.O. Tai
From: gmark@cbnewse.cb.att.com (gilbert.m.stewart)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: ... Thought for the Day
Date: 30 Sep 92 21:57:09 GMT
Article-I.D.: cbnewse.1992Sep30.215709.8104
Organization: AT&T

In article <01GPEEQ175828WVZMY@ccfvx3.draper.com> seb@draper.com (Steve Bacher) writes:
>GMSsez:
>
>>more positive than the alternative.  Kind of like the separatism 
>>and inequality in women having separate, cleaner restrooms.
>
>How do you know women's restrooms are cleaner???
>--- -- --- ---- ------- --------- --- ----------
>

Because we sometimes can't afford a Holiday Inn, obviously.

GMS
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa