HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: joshua@cpac.washington.edu (Joshua Geller)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: (LONG) _Liber Qlippoth: The Shells of the Tree of Life (Part 1)
Date: 23 Jan 93 13:19:24 GMT
Organization: Institute for the Study of Ancient Science
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: bailey.cpac.washington.edu
In-reply-to: Thyagi@cup.portal.com's message of Fri, 22 Jan 93 19:11:17 PST


the qliphoth are sometimes usefully thought of as excrements or
secretions, each of the particular sphere or path it pertains
to.

josh
From: farris@ruhets.rutgers.edu (Lorenzo Farris)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Doping Mercury
Keywords: Doping Mercury
Date: 22 Jan 93 20:26:29 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

In article <1993Jan22.001642.8844@linus.mitre.org>, tucker@mitre.org (William Tucker) writes:
:As an aside but related, Leadbetter talks about the structure of the
:atom on a treatsie he did on the chakras that was interesting. Yogananda
:speaks of the creation of "physical things" from shear mind "force" in
:his book Autobiography of a Yogi, as do a couple of people in the original
:"I AM" books put out by G.W. Ballard. and of the same genre those books
:put out by Baird Spaulding, suspect perhaps but interesting. An american
:doctor of mediicine Ralph Ballantine (1984) discussed the transumutation 
:of matter by living organisims in his book "Holistic Living or something
:or another" :-) that seemed interesting although, somewhat ill thought 
:out (no mention of the fact that matter is breathed in as well as 
:ingested). Ciao.
:

In _Tibetan Yoga and Secret Doctrines_, edited by Evans-Wentz, it is
stated that upon mastery of the Yoga of the Illusory Body, the adept
will have power over the material world, and be able to make material
objects appear and disappear at will.

Just another instance of this idea.
-- 
Happiness is just a                     ******************************
remembrance away.                       *  Lorenzo Farris            *
                                        *  farris@ruhets.rutgers.edu *
                                        ******************************
From: oispeggy@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (Peggy Brown)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Alchemy
Date: 22 Jan 93 14:33:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <74099@cup.portal.com>, Thyagi@cup.portal.com (Thyagi Morgoth NagaSiva) writes...
>93!01.21 e.v. [Ready to apply the seemingly obvious Josh method]
> 
>What we need be careful about is that we don't throw OUT our
>skepticism (watchfulness) and doubt regarding these things.  

Maybe I missed something, but with all the responses so far I 
haven't seen one where someone had thrown out their skepticism.

- Peggy -
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe)
Subject: Re: You prefer white or black magic?
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 20:33:39 GMT

knepley@CS.ColoState.EDU (Ranseus (Jim Knepley)) writes:

>As to the question, white magic, just because I don't have the inclination
>to get all of the reagents involved with black magic.

What definition of black/white magic are you using?  It looks like an
interesting one.

Enjoy the journey!
                      --Br'anArthur
                                      Queer, Peculiar, and Wyrd! :-)

******************************************************************************
"We are secretly replacing the fine quartz crystals this medicine pouch maker
usually uses with Folgers crystals.  Let's see what happens...."
                                      --DACCrowell
From: ladislas@sobeco.com (Ladislas A.)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Alchemy
Date: 23 Jan 93 08:58:20 GMT
Organization: Sobeco Ernst & Young

In <74128@cup.portal.com> Thyagi@cup.portal.com (Thyagi Morgoth NagaSiva) writes:

>93!01.21 e.v.


>1) What proof shall we accept that a person has 'extended' their
>life in some fashion?  What criteria shall we accept in order
>to justify accepting this literally?

There is no proof.  Unless an Adept comes out in the open, with DNA test
results from before this century, and then has his DNA rechecked and compared
with the old one, there is no way of proving he extended his life.

>2) Same goes for 'lead-into-gold'.  How shall we determine,
>precisely, that this 'transmutation' has taken place?


>The problem here is that no credible scientific data has been
>accumulated to establish the truth of either of these claims.
>Until there is some I feel we are much wiser to assume that they
>are simply metaphors for nonphysical phenomena.

Science had done research that way.  A transmutation was performed in laboratory
in this century (no sources though - if someone has some, please post).  A metal
was transmuted into gold using nuclear energy.  It was very costly and paid
little.  The project was scrapped.


>Do I hear a counter-argument?  Yes, skepticism is very fine and
>good, but when we have evidence that many people DID die early
>due to 'alchemical potions/pills of longevity', why need we
>reserve the tentative judgement that these are STORIES, rather
>than facts?  (i.e. subjective rather than objective data)

If you want real alchemy, have a look at how alcool (as in scoth, rye, etc.)
is made.  A better example yet would be moonshine.

The first thing that struck me when I started reading on the subject was
that "alchemy is the work of nature".  The Emerald table suggest nothing
more.  The first statement declares that what is below is as what is above.
It would be hard to believe that so early in man's evolution there would
be someone to understand the mechanics of the universe.  But the phrase
certainly fits well with what we know of the structure of matter:

"... what is below [the atom] is as what is above [the star/star system/galaxy]
and what is above is as what is below; by these things are made the miracles
of one thing [the universe].  And as all things are and originate from ONE [
energy], by the mediation of ONE, so all things [matter] are born of that
unique thing by adaptation."

_Le_Tresor_Des_Alchimistes_, Jacques Sadoul, page 27.  Translated by myself.
My notes in brackets.

>Thyagi Morgoth NagaSiva
>Thyagi@HouseofKaOS.Abyss.com

Ladislas.
From: farris@ruhets.rutgers.edu (Lorenzo Farris)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: alchemy (was: Re: Dracula the Alchemist)
Date: 22 Jan 93 04:06:26 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

In article <1993Jan21.054648.6771@sobeco.com>, ladislas@sobeco.com (Ladislas A.) writes:
:This has been said many times in the past.In 1618, Jean-Baptiste Van Helmont,
:a reknowned scientist who discovered gases, was visited by a stranger who
:claimed he could prove that any metal could be transmutted into gold using
:the pilosopher's stone.  The stranger gave Van Helmont a small quantity of a
:reddish, heavy and sparkling powder.  He instructed Van Helmont in the way to
:conduct the experiment and left. Van Helmont used 8 ounces of mercury for the
:experiment.  Once the metal had melted, he wrapped the powder into a piece of

Just one stupid question ;-)
Was that alchemical mercury, or the actual metal mercury, which is a
liquid at room temperature?
-- 
Happiness is just a                     ******************************
remembrance away.                       *  Lorenzo Farris            *
                                        *  farris@ruhets.rutgers.edu *
                                        ******************************
From: mist@lynx.dac.northeastern.edu (Paul Timmins)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: ritual in lucid dreams
Date: 26 Jan 93 19:53:44 GMT
Organization: Northeastern University, Boston, MA. 02115, USA

In article <1993Jan26.191823.2712@dcs.warwick.ac.uk> crisp@dcs.warwick.ac.uk (Badvoc) writes:
>In <C1CLEE.CC8@techbook.com> nancyp@techbook.com (Nancy Parsons) writes:
>[Lots of stuff deleted.]
>>
>This is very interesting. Can anyone tell me how I would go about improving
>my ability to visualize real objects. When I try to visualize objects that I
>have recently seen or otherwise. My mind is is either empty of full of
>chaotic images. I would like to hear peoples responsies to this.
   Hrm, I understand, my mind is very hectic, visualization does not
come easily to me. Well, I can visualize dimensions, and geometric
shapes <2d through 4d>, but trying to visualize a blank white wall kills
me. Its a matter of conditioning. If you put the concentration into it,
visualization comes. At least, in theory.
From: pechever@phakt.usc.edu (The Heckler)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Not for prestidigitators (was Re: You prefer white or black magic?
Date: 24 Jan 1993 16:35:45 -0800
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: phakt.usc.edu

Sigh.  Here we go again.  You'll note I've removed alt.magic from the
newsfroups line, to help cut down on complaints from the justly annoyed
folks over there.

In article <1993Jan23.164321.10058@netcom.com> derich@netcom.com (Scott A. Steinbrink) prattles:
>If you had a choice, would you prefer black or white magic?
>Why?
>I'd pick white so I can help God spread some goodness all around the earth.
>- Scott
>--
>Scott Allen Steinbrink
[ugly .sig gleefully deleted]

Okay, Scotto.  First, you posted to an inappropriate newsfroup.  The fact that
you included both alt.magic and alt.magick in the post suggests to me that
you didn't know which one was for what, and that leads to the conclusion that
you haven't actually read either of them.  Posting without a clear concept
of what's going on is a breach of net.etiquette...but that's relatively
minor; frosh do this every September.
Second, the question is vague, relatively inane, and an obvious set-up for
what you think really important:  What Scott thinks of the question (see your
inane (again) comment after the question).
Most of the folks here on alt.magick (certainly the heaviest posters) don't
believe in white/black polarization of magick; magick just is.  So right away,
you don't have a common system of referents with your audience.  Second, it's
not a good question in that it probably won't provoke well-thought-out 
discussion about the scope, use, and framework of magick as a whole.  It's 
kind of a "What's your favorite thrash metal band?" question put to the
assembly of the Bach Appreciation Society.
Now I've been gentle, so don't come whining to me.  You got off light.
If josh takes a whack at you, I won't be responsible.  And, Scotto...
read the group for a month or six before posting again, would you?  There's a
nice undergrad.

			Cheers, and all that,
			Paul (the heckler) Echeverri
-- 
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
"Come, let us retract the foreskin of misconception and apply the wire
		brush of enlightenment."   --Geoff Miller  
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
From: joshua@cpac.washington.edu (Joshua Geller)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Alchemy
Date: 22 Jan 93 09:45:15 GMT
Organization: Institute for the Study of Ancient Science
Distribution: world
	<1993Jan18.222515.405@news.uwyo.edu> <C16CFC.I6H@HQ.Ileaf.COM>
	<1993Jan21.082614.409@news.uwyo.edu> <74099@cup.portal.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bailey.cpac.washington.edu
In-reply-to: Thyagi@cup.portal.com's message of Thu, 21 Jan 93 17:24:07 PST


In article <74099@cup.portal.com> Thyagi@cup.portal.com (Thyagi Morgoth 
NagaSiva) writes:

>   I've seen lots of postings here about the 'supposed' possibility of
>   changing the constitution ('transmuting') of one metal into another.

>   I've also seen other more reasonable treatments of this as a
>   metaphor (deeply rooted in chemical processes BECAUSE of this
>   supposition, perhaps) for personal tranformation.

>   Until someone comes on here and claims to have done this or seen
>   evidence for it, why don't we simply treat it as an effective 
>   magical metaphor?  I.e. why don't we apply Occam's Razor a little and
>   suppose that people were engaging physical processes, identifying 
>   themselves with their 'experiments' and then undergoing personal
>   transformation as a result?  

well, you would wait a long time to here a claim like that, 
especially from someone who could actually do it (assuming 
it is possible). my statements on alchemy and what alchemists
do or are trying to do is based on ten years study of the 
subject; I suggest you do a bit more research before you
venture to make definitions. 

josh
From: joshua@cpac.washington.edu (Joshua Geller)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: ritual in lucid dreams
Date: 26 Jan 93 21:17:24 GMT
	<C1CLEE.CC8@techbook.com> <1993Jan26.191823.2712@dcs.warwick.ac.uk>
Organization: Institute for the Study of Ancient Science
NNTP-Posting-Host: bailey.cpac.washington.edu
In-reply-to: crisp@dcs.warwick.ac.uk's message of Tue, 26 Jan 1993 19:18:23 GMT


In article <1993Jan26.191823.2712@dcs.warwick.ac.uk> crisp@dcs.warwick.ac.uk 
(Badvoc) writes:

>                          Can anyone tell me how I would go about improving
> my ability to visualize real objects. When I try to visualize objects that I
> have recently seen or otherwise. My mind is is either empty of full of
> chaotic images. I would like to hear peoples responsies to this.

start off with simple, imaginary objects and work your way up.

also, and most important, set aside some time every day for these
practices and do not fail to do them every day.

josh
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: MANDTBACKA@FINABO.ABO.FI (Mats Andtbacka)
Subject: Re: Doping Mercury
Organization: Unorganized Usenet Postings UnInc.
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 11:09:50 GMT
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.24


      Minor, unimportant, technical point, just to get the science
straight:

In <1993Jan25.155918.26579@linus.mitre.org> tucker@mitre.org writes:

> Ionic substances exist in all forms. An ion means the element
> has a charge, it's either missing or has too many electrons.
> An isotope means that it has an imbalance in nuetrons, like
> deutirium. There are supposed to be as many nuetrons as there
> are protons in a stable atom too, just as there are supposed
> to be the same number of electrons as there are protons.

      Nope; isotopes w. too many (or a few too few) neutrons (as
compared to protons) can be perfectly stable (though most aren't). Rule
of thumb: The heavier the nucleus, the more "extra" neutrons it has -
the really heavy ones have quite a lot more neutrons than protons. This
is all to stabilize the internal quantum mechanics of the nucleus,
nuthin' us mere mortals need bother with. :-)

-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-
 If you think I'm gonna be responsible for this crap, you're madder than I am.
    "No logic here today / Do as you got to, Go your own way..." -- G 'n' R
     ===>The Truth is still the Truth, even if you choose to ignore it.<===
From: knepley@CS.ColoState.EDU (Ranseus (Jim Knepley))
Subject: Re: You prefer white or black magic?
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 02:14:06 GMT
Organization: Colorado State University

In article <1993Jan23.164321.10058@netcom.com> derich@netcom.com (Scott A. Steinbrink) writes:
>If you had a choice, would you prefer black or white magic?

>I'd pick white so I can help God spread some goodness all around the earth.

Why did this get crossposted to alt.magic?  I saw the subject line and said
"hmm, ethnic magic, this could be interesting."  I've not sent this post
alt.magic, but will reply anyway.

As to the question, white magic, just because I don't have the inclination
to get all of the reagents involved with black magic.

Which God is it that you claim is spreading goodness all around the earth
again?

Jim
-- 
----- knepley@cs.colostate.edu ----------------------------------------------
 Jim "Ranseus" Knepley |  Avoid rectal-cranial inversion. 
 Programmer, magician, |  "Gun's don't kill, it's those bullet things"   
 computer geek.        |
From: wce@hogbbs.scol.pa.us (Bill Eichman)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: ritual in lucid dreams
Date: 27 Jan 93 09:11:56 GMT
Organization: The Heart of Gold BBS, Lemont PA

joshua@cpac.washington.edu (Joshua Geller) writes:

> 
> In article <1993Jan26.191823.2712@dcs.warwick.ac.uk> crisp@dcs.warwick.ac.uk 
> (Badvoc) writes:
> 
> >                          Can anyone tell me how I would go about improving
> > my ability to visualize real objects. When I try to visualize objects that 
> 
> also, and most important, set aside some time every day for these
> practices and do not fail to do them every day.
> 

And if you do fail to do them every day, just smile at your own 
weaknesses, and start up again. And again, and again, and again...

Like calisthenics, the key is repeated practice, over time.

It's true that there is a 'knack' to visualisations, and that once you've 
'mastered the trick', daily practice is not so absolutely vital. However, 
steady, regular practice throughout life is necessary for 'keeping in 
shape'.

Or so it seems to me. Bill
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: scarrobi@shearson.com (Steve Carrobis)
Subject: Re: Smart drugs
Reply-To: scarrobi@shearson.com
Organization: Lehman Brothers, Inc.
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 15:59:17 GMT

In article 6464@noao.edu, forgach@noao.edu (Suzanne Forgach) writes:
> From article <1993Jan14.161238.10974@blaze.cs.jhu.edu>, by mgross@server.cs.jhu.edu (Matthew B. Gross):

> > I like caffeine, myself. 


me 2!

---
Steve C. 

 ==> A wise man once told me - There ARE NO Wise Men !
                             - Just fools who think they are.
---------------------------------------------------------------		
 I understand you need someone to do work.
 I don't do work, but, I know this guy who does.
    -Vladimir Taltos
---------------------------------------------------------------
From: ashton@netcom.com (ashton)
Subject: Re: Berkeley OTO and Wicca
Reply-To: ashton@netcom.com
Organization: Abbey of Thelema, Babalon by the Bay, OZ
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1993 12:23:03 GMT

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

Thyagi@cup.portal.com (Thyagi Morgoth NagaSiva) writes:

>Robert Mathiesen writes:

>One of the loose ends in my research so far pertains to a school of witch-
>craft operating in Berkeley, CA, around the year 1960.  Reading Parsons,
>and knowing that there has long been an OTO lodge in Berkeley, leads me to
>ask --  Was this school of witchcraft perhaps run by the OTO lodge, or by
>some of its members, or former members?  Are there any old-timers on the
>net who would know, or anyone who would be able to put me in touch with
>someone who would know.  Many thanks for any help you are able to give.

>Response:

>I am certainly not an 'old-timer' (having been born in '61), yet I have
>been studying old extant texts of OTO (Thelema Lodge) Newsletter
>and have met many of the people who were around lodge within the last
>10 years, some of them 'old-timers' to be sure.

Whelp, since I live here in Berzerkely under Thelema Lodge I asked some
'old timers' (and did they take offence!). So - without naming names
(and you know who you are) there was nothing going on until 1967-68 ev.
Sure, Hippies, Wackos, Leary, and Wilson - but no focused group ritual
work (and I'd rather hear differently). One person said - you can read
about it all in _Drawing Down the Moon_ (really!). They knew of nothing
in the area, started their own from books, and no one came out of the
woodwork to play. So - NROOGD is about the same time as the other
Wiccan groups.
As to the OTO, Most of the the 'old timers' (LOP Slop) came in around 1977 
ev. Sure Grady and ? were living in the hills here (Dublin ?), but the
current crop (gee, is that like a me-on?) didn't take initiation until
then. (And grow into the wonderful political organization that we so
enjoy today :-> ).

>Much cross-over TODAY exists among long-time members in the
>Berkeley area (e.g. Ebony's class on Witchcraft at 'Ancient Ways').

Humm, Not so sure about Witchcraft. He teaches cycles of Ceremonial
Magick and Egyptian Magick on Tue nights at Ancient Ways on Telegraph.
(He says he'll be teaching there on Tue untill the subject dies.)
The Egyptian classes are recommended, even if just for his divergences
(and aftermass), as are the very entertaining tours of the Rosicrucian
museum.

A really nice piece of work on the origins of Witchcraft is
_Crafting the Art of Magic: A History of Modern Witchcraft 1939-1964_
Aidan Kelly, Llewellyn, 1991.

Love is the law, love under will.

AShTON
From: hiho@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Mark Peterson)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: ritual in lucid dreams
Date: 27 Jan 1993 14:29:14 GMT
Organization: University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
Reply-To: hiho@csd4.csd.uwm.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.89.7.4
Originator: hiho@csd4.csd.uwm.edu

From article <1993Jan26.191823.2712@dcs.warwick.ac.uk>, by crisp@dcs.warwick.ac.uk (Badvoc):
[...]
> This is very interesting. Can anyone tell me how I would go about improving
> my ability to visualize real objects. When I try to visualize objects that I
> have recently seen or otherwise. My mind is is either empty of full of
> chaotic images. I would like to hear peoples responsies to this.


Practice practice practice.


hiho
-- 
mark ce peterson   | uw-washington county  | hiho@csd4.csd.uwm.edu 
dept of philosophy | west bend, wi.  53095 | (414) 335-5200        

     The shorter the tether, the sooner the goat starves.
From: grimoire@byron.u.washington.edu (John Greer)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Masonic Practices??
Date: 25 Jan 1993 22:43:37 GMT
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
NNTP-Posting-Host: byron.u.washington.edu

In article <1993Jan24.215455.11774@fuug.fi> an4484@anon.penet.fi writes:
>Date Entered: 01-24-93 03:46
>
>
>My understanding (as much I guess as an outsider could have) of Masonic
>practices would be that they descend from the Knights Templar of around
>the time of the middle ages. Their purpose inbeing was to be the guardians
>of the Holy Grail.
>
>Funny though....I was talking to a Witch whose grandfather was a Mason and
>it seems their beliefs are a little more elaborate than that. It seems that
>the whole idea behind Masonry is that Christ as a man was married or at
>least had sexual relations with Mary Magdelan which produced offspring.
>The Masons  then have one purpose....to defend these descendants of Christ
>down through the ages.
>
>And the reason for the secrecy is that the whole premise of the Christian
>religion is the fact that Jesus was the Son of God....hence the need for
>secrecy. The Witch (who had evidently gleaned this info from her grandfathers
>diaries seemed to resent this, in that this means the Masons are basically
>defending a lie...namely, Christ as the celibate Son of God who never married
>as that might make certain Christian practices/beliefs untenable.
>
>Any comments on this?
>


Sounds like your witch friend has been reading a little too much of _Holy
Blood, Holy Grail_ by M. Baigent et al.  One of the more impressive 
exercises in hand-waving and puffery that's come down the pike in a little 
while, to be sure, but as a source for information on Masonic beliefs you'd
be as well off reading Fundie "They're-all-a-bunch-of-debble-fiends" tracts.

There's just a chance that the Masons have Templar antecedents -- there have
been a couple of suggestive books on the subject recently, though (not having
followed up on them) I don't have a clear sense of how well their claims 
stand up to scrutiny.  But as far as the rest...well, I suspect I'm about
as knowledgeable about Masonry as one is likely to get from outside (I've 
read and studied complete texts of most of the current rituals) and this
Jesus stuff isn't what it's about.  Period. 

In fact, the Masons are actually a front group for the Aluminum Bavariati, a
mysterious conspiracy of alien storm-door salesmen, vast, cool and unsympath-
etic, who are operating the Bermuda Triangle together with the Gnomes of
Zurich on a franchise from the Great Old Gods...   ;^)

-- JMG