From: mfm0@ellis.uchicago.edu (martin frederic melhus)
Subject: Re: McVay's almanac (long)
Keywords: Denial, B-CPU
Reply-To: mfm0@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 08:07:23 GMT

In article <1992Sep22.072028.10736@kub.nl> paai@kub.nl (J.J. Paijmans) writes:
>
>Why do I object to the Holocaust Almanac of McVey's, at least in its
>current guise? It is easy: I think that McVey and his croonies are not
>really concerned with justice, history or even with the honest wish to
>prevent similar crimes in the future.

I must disagree here.  I have had a fair amount of correspondance with
Mr. McVay, and it seems clear that justice, history, and prevention
are at the core of his efforts.

>If they really would be concerned with justice or history, that should
>be visible in attempts to scrutinize their sources and try to sift out
>spurious stories. But on the contrary, they don't want to do that. They
>search actively for the most pornographic details to publish, regardless 
>of its historical truth or probability. I almost pity them every time when 
>the subject of the cakes of soap comes up...

Sorry, but this position is inaccurate.  When B-CPU was around, they
made a bunch of ridiculous assertions, and Mr. McVay challenged them
to back them up.  None of their arguments held any water.  So Mr. McVay,
along with many others (Mr. Shein and Mr. Keren come to mind, but there
are probably a hundred more) posted evidence indicating that the
holocaust happened more or less as taught and understood today, and
repeatedly asked the folks at B-CPU to refute them.  Again, nothing
of substance cam from them.   They might argue that we were biased, but
after George Martin's abuses of math in an article about gas chamber volume,
it was quite clear that B-CPU was playing fast and loose with the truth.
Now with regard to the soap story, we've posted some evidence about it,
but not much.  And even though I've heard Deborah Lipstadt renounce any
human soap stories as nonsense, the gang at B-CPU was only able to 
state that Lipstadt renounces it, and publish an open letter to one
Nat Henhoff (or some similar name) by one of the IHR bigwigs.  They are
unable to produce any first hand evidence to contradict this story.
Part of the idea of internet is discussion and debate; the realists were
offering the B-CPU people a choice morsel to discredit, and they could
only cough a bit before choking on it.

Now I don't buy the soap story today, but that doesn't make the holocaust
a big lie.

Publishing the more graphic details of the holocaust is necessary to 
help prevent a reoccurance of similar events.  As you mention, one only
need look at our current international headlines to see the danger of
group hatred.

>In all honesty I must give it to them that they admit in public that they 
>are not interested in the truth of their citations. But if the holocaust 
>is of any importance, I would say that it is also important to sift truth 
>from falsehoods.

On this I agree with you.  It seems obvious that in the mountains
of evidence concerning the holocaust, there are some mistakes,
and some outright lies.  Preserving the truth is the best way
to prevent people like those at B-CPU from distorting it to serve
their own ends.

>Then, again, you might argue that truth is not important if you can
>prevent such crimes from happening again and that graphic descriptions of
>the horrors may serve as a warning.  This, I think, is open to
>discussion. We all see what is happening in Germany at this very
>moment and we also know that if there is one single nation that had his
>nose rubbed in former crimes, then it is Germany. So rubbing noses 
>obviously does not help and I feel that it is the fault of the McVeys of 
>this world.

Please don't blame Ken for riots in Germany.  Irrational hatred of all
Germans by anyone touched by the holocaust would be a flaw, but a
distaste for supporters of those heinous acts is the only appropriate
response for anyone with even a modicum of morality.

>The mistake that they make, is that people should be *enlightened*, not 
>drowned in hatred. As an American president said "You can fool some of 
>the people all of the time...but you can't fool all of the people all of 
>the time." 

Actually, I think it was P. T. Barnum, of the Ringling Brothers and 
Barnum-Bailey circus, billed as "The Greatest Show on Earth."

>           However true the bulk of the holocaust sources may be (I am 
>*not* denying that and please do not say that I do or ever did), there are 
>too many obvious examples of propagandistic lies pure and simple between 
>them.  Historic science should be concerned with identifying such lies and 
>to see that they are not dispersed with the true facts, thus poisoning the 
>whole. It is on this poison that B-CPU thrives. But people like McVey are 
>responsible.

I must disagree.  A reaction of hatred towards anyone is not likely
to elicit a kind response, but only B-CPU can be held responsible for 
the poison it spews forth.  After all, we must assume that the people
there (the assertion that there are people there has been questioned
on the net) are capable of free choice.

>As I said, McVey and his friends are not concerned with history or
>truth. If you try to start a discussion, or point out mistakes, they gang
>up on you, accuse you of being a nazi, that you kick your dog and rape
>your grandmother (or the other way around) and generally shout you
>down. Right now I am readying myself for the lawine of offensive and
>anonymous letters and threats that I received last time I brought this 
>subject up in public. Possibly by McVey himself, who is to say he is above 
>that?

From what I've seen of your postings, there shouldn't be any hate mail
sent to you.  Apparently, there has been, and I'd like to publicly state
that I think it is wrong, and unjustified.  You have tried to initiate a
debate about the merits of Mr. McVay's postings, and have been polite
and up front about your intentions (with the exception of your implying
that Mr. McVay might be responsible for the hate mail.)  I have seen
two other posts following up to this one, and the tone in both was
polite and respectful.  I, for one, am acting on my own, and expressing
opinions that are mine, without urging from any other parties.

>This, I think, is time-honoured fascist behaviour. Also, they use the very
>real sufferings of the jews to bloat their own importance, imaging
>themselves as all-knowing knights on shining white chargers, while in
>reality they are bigots, conceited little men without other interests than
>their own dirty hate. 

Now you too are beginning to show your hatred.  I have never imagined
myself as a knight; I don't like horses much.  I am simply content
to do what I can for what I see as a clearly good cause.  

>Again, read this carefully. I never said, or even suggested that the
>holocaust is just a propaganda lie. My sympathy is almost certainly not
>with B-CPU, although I only know it from citations by McVey (possibly not 
>the most exact of sources). But if McVey continues with this crusade of 
>hatred, he should not be surprised to be called a fascist. And if he 
>continues knowingly to disperse falsehoods in his almanac, he should not 
>be surprised that B-CPU is as succesfull as it seems to be.

On this point, I urge you to read Mr. Shein's reply to your post.
He argues against this far more convincingly than I can.  But I must
also add that it seems extremely clear to me that without the efforts
of Mr. McVay and other like minded individuals, B-CPU would be even more
successful than it is today.  After all, it seems to have fled the internet
for other electronic pastures to graze in.  Perhaps his tactics were severe,
and may have caused some pain, but if surgery is necessary to prevent
calamity, so be it.

>Paijmans

>BTW: 1. I am a trained historian and
>     2. my own father was in a concentration camp.

That's all well and good, but so what?  I am sorry for your father's
tragedy; let us all hope that your children and everyone else's are
not condemned to repeat it.

-- 
                          | You have all the time from when you remove the |
     Martin F. Melhus     | card(s) from your hand until you put it (them) |
 mfm0@midway.uchicago.edu | on the pile to say "Last Card".  If you don't, |
                          | take your two. - Hidden texts, Book of MauMau. |
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