From: Will Steeves <goid@zooid.guild.org>
Subject: Re: Let's Play StipU (1)
X-To: ADRIENNE REGARD
Organization: The Zoo of Ids
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 16:23:00 GMT

regard@hpsdde.sdd.hp.com (Adrienne Regard) writes...
AR> In article <1992Dec1.214636.21571@zooid.guild.org> Will Steeves <goid@zooid.
AR> d.org> writes:
AR> >regard@hpsdde.sdd.hp.com (Adrienne Regard) writes...
AR> >AR> Will and me:
AR> >AR> >AR> And the man is not absolved of his responsibility by saying, "Hone
AR> >AR> >AR> you take your pill?"
AR> >AR> >Yes, but what if *neither* took precautions?  Would you still blame th
AR> >AR> >and force him to be responsible?
AR> >
AR> >AR> Scuse, please:  "blame"?  "force"?
AR> >
AR> >Okay, fine:
AR> >
AR> >1) "blame" : You and others have occasionally used the argument form "But t
AR> >man shouldn't have opened up his zipper if he didn't want to be a father,"

AR> Scuse, please, but WITH RESPECT TO THE CURRENT SET OF LAWS IN THIS LAND OF
AR> OURS, it seems like pretty good advice.

AR> Are you suggesting that men SHOULDN'T be careful, knowing what's at stake?

No, I'm just suggesting that men not be told "Screw you if you don't want to
be a father.  She's pregnant now, and if you didn't want to be a father, you
shouldn't have unzipped your pants," as though it was only the man's decision
to have sex.


AR> If neither took precautions, Will, and neither wanted kids, I'd call 'em
AR> BOTH pretty goddamn stupid, you bet.  Do I 'blame' them?  I dunno, depens
AR> on the circumstances.  Do I "force" them to be responsible?  Better them tha
                           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
AR> me.  Yes.  I do.  Both.  Hopefully, these incredibly stupid people will figu
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
AR> out that an abortion is in their own best interest, but since they've been
AR> so stupid, I'm not sure I have a whole lot of hope for 'em.

Given the current controversy regarding what I now consider to be perhaps more
than just an accidental misinterpretation of some of Don Beaver's remarks, I
*could* just *choose to interpret* what you just said, as implying that you
would also force the woman to stay pregnant, as part of the "responsibilities"
which you *would* force on her.  Of course, if you didn't intend for that
interpretation to be made, then how *WOULD* you force responsibility on the
woman?  It's pretty clear how you would force MEN to "be responsible," but
given that you don't wish for women to be forced to remain pregnant, how WOULD
you "force reponsibility" upon her?


AR> >This *does* rather sound like
AR> >blame to me, or at least an attempt to transfer the entire burden of
AR> >responsibility for the pregnancy.

AR> Ah.  You prefer creating someone else's argument FOR them, rather than
AR> dealing with what you get over the net?  I'm sure this is easy to script
AR> up, Will, and you won't need to deal with the rest of us to suit your
AR> fantasy.  )-:

It's no fantasy, Adrienne.  You admit to be willing to force "both", "to be
responsible," but you give no clear idea of how you apply such a forced
responsibility to women, though it would not include forced pregnancy, but in
the case of men, you seem to have *no problem* with forcing him to be a father
whether he would have chosen to, or not.


AR> >I believe that plenty of people have posted information about paternity sui
AR> >regulations in various states.  Also, I myself have posted information abou
AR> >a number of very high-profile men who are forced fathers.  Indeed, there is
AR> o
AR> >the case of Karen DeCrow, former President of NOW, who supported the New Yo
AR> >City Police Lieutenant Frank Serpico, during his court appearance on patern
AR> >charges.

AR> I have seen anecdotal evidence on this net, for both positions, dead-beat
AR> dads of egregious neglect, and predatory women who have 'tricked' poor
AR> innocent men into being walking wallets.  I haven't seen anything beyond
AR> anecdotal evidence.  Since there is anecdotal evidence BOTH ways, I'm not
AR> sure I'd go out of my way to interpret EITHER side as proof of a problem.

Ahem, but weren't the problems of sexual harassment and certain other problems
experienced by women, first discovered by *anecdotal* evidence.  The evidence
was then researched, and in many cases was found to be true.  Why not do some
further research into the Frank Serpico affair, and the subsequent comments
from NOW, for instance?

---
Will Steeves, goid@zooid.guild.org                      "Neil Hull is GOiD"
ZOOiD BBS, Toronto, Ontario - The Zoo Of Ids            "GOiDS Rule"
(416) 322-7876

"Cthulhu for President in '92 - Why vote for the _lesser_ of two evils?"
                                                          - Bronis Vidugiris
---
 * SLMR 2.1a * * I M a tru beleever in the American edukashun sistum.
Newsgroups: talk.abortion