From: mdc@crux1.cit.cornell.edu (Mark D. Crimmins)
Subject: Re: How to buy a piano SUMMARY
Organization: Cornell Information Technologies
Date: 18 Nov 92 00:14:17 GMT

Many thanks to all who replied to my query for information about how
to go about buying a piano.  In addition to the responses that were
posted, I received quite a lot of extremely useful advice by e-mail.
I have appended a digest of this advice below.

-- Mark Crimmins
   mdc@crux1.cit.cornell.edu



>>> Piano:1
From: torsten@daimi.aau.dk

Think the best way to handle it is to pay an expert to help you out, that means
find a few pianos you like, and then bring him along to have a look. There is
quite a few things to consider, first of all _you_ shall be content with the
sound, the action etc., and next he (the expert) shall tell you if there is
something wrong with it. I think. 

>>> Piano:2
From: sbambara@ent1.ent.ncsu.edu (Stephen Bambara)
	This is borderline antique info, but here is my two cents. (Or
should that be "are" my two cents?)  Anyway, my wife is the piano player
in the family and we have been through the piano buying decision
process.
This is what we found.
	First, be realistic and ask yourselves what you want from the
piano.  Do you want something that first, looks nice, and second, sounds
okay?  If you are not serious players don't pay big bucks for sound
quality.  We were interested in an antique piano and were told (and soon
realized that very few of the antique pianos are going to give a serious
player the sound that they desire.  Most antique pianos have been
neglected some time during their life and will likely have trouble
keeping in tune.  There are exceptions, of course, most Steinways, for
example, and a few others.  There can also be sound board cracks, warps,
worn hammers, etc.  In most cases, few people want to put the megabucks
into reworking an old piano to give it good quality.
	Second, piano dealers are just like car dealers.  The used piano
dealers may even be worse than the used car dealers.  Trade-ins will
also affect the deal.  The mark up on pianos is easily 100%+ so there is
a lot of room to bargain.  Don't take the sticker price.  
	Selling a used piano can be difficult for an individual and many
families are willing to take the loss.  I would first, heavily
investigate the want ads for pianos for sale.  Be patient and take
several months.  When you find one you want, have a reputable person
inspect it before you buy it.  If you are willing to pay 5K, pay someone
to professionally move it.  Expect to have it tuned in 3-6 months after
it acclimates  to your house.
	We ended up buying a Yamaha and it is an excellent piano.  It
also has excellent resale value, compared to most others.  To repeat
myself, if you want furniture then buy the antique piano.  If you want
a serious musical instrument, buy a newer one.  Talk to several piano
tuners who do not sell and get their general opinions on companies to
stay away from.

>>> Piano:3
From: jim@doink.b23b.ingr.com (Jim Reed)
My wife started looking at pianos about a year ago and finally bought
one in January or February.  We went to several musical instrument and
piano stores.  You should be able to find a store that sells both
new and used pianos.  We talked to them about both and pretty much
let them run through as much of their sales pitch as they wanted to,
it was quite educational.  Baldwin salesmen especially seemed to know
what they were talking about.

Don't be afraid to take some music with you so you can try out
each piano.  Music stores here in the south usually have several
church hymnals around, but if you prefer something else, take it
with you.

We were told that as a rule of thumb a piano will keep its dollar
value if it's taken care of.  If you pay $3000 for a new piano today,
it will be worth about $3000 in twenty, thirty, etc. years.  The
main part of taking care of a piano is getting it tuned at least
once a year.  The first tuning is usually included with a new piano.

If you find a used one you're interested in, it would be a good idea
to get a piano tuner/repair man (not associated with whoever's selling
the piano) to look it over.

My wife is the pianist in the family.  For six years she played a
Steinway grand as church pianist.  But Steinway was definitely out
of our range.  We ended up getting a Baldwin Acrosonic, you should
easily find a new one in your price range (they may be cheaper after
Christmas).  I think it's 48" tall.  She thought the Baldwin Spinet
and Classic (36") sounded too "honky tonk".

Don't be afraid to bargain on the price or play one dealer against
another.  If you're patient you can find a sale.  We were fortunate
to get both a sale and a factory rebate (rebates were probably due
to the recession, may not be available now).

Enjoy the hunt.

>>> Piano:4
From: Gloria Smith <uwpress@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca>
Hello Mark.  I studied piano for almost 20 years many years ago. When I
got married, we moved my old upright from my mother's to our place.  After
that, we had to call movers of course any time we wanted to move it from
one room or level to another!  This got to be a real pain.  It was a nice
upright but eventually it would need a new sound board etc. We sold it. 
About 4 years ago I decided I missed a piano and I looked around and did
end up buying a yamaha clavinova.  It is absolutely fabulous. It has the
action of a piano, the sound is great and it only weighs 100 lb. I play
everything on it - Bach, Chopin, Beethoven, Scott Joplin etc. I would
highly recommend it.  Mine has 2 piano voices, plus electric piano,
harpsichord (great for Bach), and vibes. I bought it in May when the new
models were coming out. I bought a brand new last year's model for a good
price. Do look around.  Try them out.  Look at other brands besides Yamaha
and compare. You will probably have to spend $2000 to $3000 but it's well
worth it.  Mine came with a 2 yr guarantee from the manufacturer and a 3rd
year with the dealer. (Not all dealers offer the 3rd year.) The price
varies a lot from dealer to dealer too -- like cars you can bargain
somewhat. Three weeks ago I went to a recital here in Waterloo put on by
Yamaha, featuring a touring young female performer.  She used 4 different
clavinovas and played a variety of music.  She was ever so talented and
was also a super composer.  The variety of things she did, including
programming orchestral accompaniment etc, was absolutely breathtaking. It
certainly is a tremendous opportunity for young people especially just
starting music -- much more interesting than just playing some of those
stupid little pieces the rest of us learned on!

>>> Piano:5
From: weissborn@dfwdsr.SINet.SLB.COM
Saw your post in rec.antiques and since I don't have posting privs yet at
my news site, I thought I would try and get the word to you this way.  Feel
free to post this the group if others have asked for a summary.

My wife and I have been running an antique business on the side for the last
5 years or so.  We have bought/repaired/sold probably 15 or more pianos.
Here is what we have learned about antique/older pianos--the hard way!

First thing to decide is whether you want a nice piece of furniture that also
happens to be a piano or a piano that is an ok piece of furniture.  This may
sound nuts but it makes a big difference in what to look for.  Every
English(ie, made in England) piano has been a beautiful piece of
furniture--lots of burl-wood, fretwork, etc.  However, the sound and mechanism
is usually crap.  They are playable but have been difficult to tune and
difficult to get and keep the keys working.  They are also 85 keys instead of
the "normal" 88 and as such are a bit smaller.

American made pianos, on the other hand, are usually a bit more plain(not
always) but the mechanism/design has always been superior to the English
pianos.

What to look for:

1) This may seem obvious but check the outside over carefully.  Look for cracks
on the sides.  This can be an indication of either wood drying/aging or stress
from the harp and strings.  If it is veneered, there should be no bumps or
splits in the veneer.  If there are, it is an indication that the glue holding
the veneer is starting to break down and/or the piano has been in a humid
environ(Every piano we have dealt with veneer had the veneer glued with
hide-glue.  Water will dissolve hide-glue). While loose veneer is not going to
effect the sound or playability of the piece, it can be a real hassle to repair
and expensive if you don't do it yourself.  Squareness (i.e., does the piano
lean to one side or the other).  If it does lean, make sure it is not because
of a broken or missing roller.  If the rollers are all there, then the lean can
be caused by either a cracked case(unlikely) or my the bottom being broken
away, cracked, etc.  Bad news as this is very hard to fix/repair.

2) Make sure all the keys work.  If some don't work, open the front(be sure to
bring a good flashlight with you) and see why they aren't working.  Some likely
causes are:
	a) Hammer is broken--This is fixable IF the hammer is still there, just
	   glue the 2 pieces back together.  But look for why it may have 
	   broken in the first place, ie, sticking action, jammed ,etc.  If the
	   hammer is not there, it is still repairable but more time consuming
	   because a new hammer/shaft will have to be made to fit.  This is
	   because it seems that every manufacturer used a different angle to
	   their hammers.
	b) Jammed action--This is where the key hits a "lifter" which in turn
	   actuates the hammer.  A lot of times the lifter gets wedged under
	   the hammer mechanism.  The fix is to use a small piece of wire or
	   coat-hanger, bend about 1/4" over 90 degrees and reach in, snag
	   the lifter and gently pull forward.
	c) Broken action--Somewhere along the line, one of the little wooden
	   hinges have broken.  Difficult to repair, especially of the piece
	   that broke is not there.
	d) Broken/Missing bridle-straps--These are the little pieces of what 
	   look like webbing that help to pull the hammer back away from the
	   strings.  This is an easy repair--you can usually do this yourself.
	   By the way, if a bunch are broken or look like they are ready to
	   break, go ahead and replace them all.  Its cheap (100 straps usually
	   go for about $5-6) but it is tedious.  Most tuners will do it for
	   about $10-20.
	e) Hammers sticking on the strings--This is when the piano has been
	   heavily played and the strings have worn deep grooves into the felt.
	   When the hammer hits the string, it sticks.  Usually needs just an
	   adjustment on the action but sometimes will mean re-felting some or
	   all of the hammers.  If you do have to re-felt, I would recommend
	   spending the extra $ to have all the hammers done--the overall
	   sound will be more consistent.
	f) Bad keyboard felts--There are small felt pads under each key.  These
	   rot/weardown with age and use.  A good indication of this is that 
	   some keys appear to be lower than surrounding keys.  This is an easy
	   and cheap repair although I have heard that some piano techs charge
	   a lot.  All the keys have to be removed, new felts put into place
	   and then the keys have to be leveled.  They don't like to do this
	   and charge accordingly.
	g) Dirt.  What can I say?  A good cleaning is a good way to become
	   familiar with your new piece.  Use a soft brush and or a strong
	   vacuum-cleaner to get as much dirt from under the keys that you can.
	   If you think they need just a little lubrication, USE SILICON.  DO
	   NOT USE WD-40!!!!  WD-40 will swell the wood and make a bad
	   situation worse.

3) Check the peddles.  If they don't work, look for broken pushrods.  These are
usually easily fixed/replaced.  Most American pianos have 3 peddles.  Quite
often the middle peddle did nothing.  Sometimes it was hooked up to a
"rinky-tink" bar.  This was a bar that had small felt strips with a piece of
wood on the end.  When the peddle was depressed, this bar was lowered, the
hammer hit the strip which in turn had the piece of wood hit the string causing
the "rinky-tink" sound.  Quite often, the pieces of felt have rotted away. 
They can be, usually, easily replaced.

4) Pin-block.  This is where the tuning pins are.  Look this over closely as it
is the heart of the piano.  All the pins should have a slight (7 deg or so)
upward tilt.  If they are leaning towards the floor, walk away from it as this
is an indication of a cracked pin-block, even if the crack is not visible.

Look for cracks in the block.  This can be tough because some manufacturers
veneered their blocks and the veneer will be cracked but not the block.  When I
am buying a piano, I carry a piece of small gauge wire with me.  I poke it into
the cracked veneer and see how far it goes into the crack.  If it goes deeper
into the crack than the thickness of the veneer, then the pin-block probably
has a problem.

Also, if possible, try to find out how long ago the piano was tuned and how
frequent.  What we have found is that if a piano has not been tuned in 10-20
years, it will take sometimes 6 tunings to get it to stay in tune.  This has to
due with the strings having a "memory" as well as the wood surrounding the
tuning pin.  If it was tuned every 6 months then you probably have a good find
in that it will be easy to get and keep it in tune.

For what it's worth, our tuner says that no piano is un-tunable.  Except that
one we bought with the invisible (at first) cracked pin-block( :-( ).  Loose
pins can be either hammered in a bit to get a better "purchase" on the
surrounding wood.  The wood itself can be swollen via a chemical to grab
better, oversize pins can be inserted, and there are shims/inserts that can be
used to tighten a pin.

5) Strings.  If the strings are real rusty looking, you may be looking at
having to replace one or more.  This is a really tough call without actually
trying to tune the piano(where the breakage occurs).  Look at the bass strings.
They should be made up with a solid "core" wire with at least one wrap of
another wire of equal thickness over the core.  Two wraps is good and three is
outstanding(ie, yields a very rich bass).

6) Cracked soundboards.  A lot is made of having a cracked sound board. 
Virtually every piano we have had, had a crack in the sound board.  It is
almost inevitable really.  Wood moves,  100+yr old wood has moved a lot and
cracks will develop.  What people really should be saying is listen for any
buzzing which will indicate that the soundboard has pulled away from a rib. 
This can be fixed with a few screws/glue but it is a tedious repair.  And I
have been told by piano-players/owners that a piano never sounds quite the same
afterward.

Brands:
Since you have a pretty good budget, look for a CHICKERING (I think the
spelling is ok).  They are considered by many to be a top-line piano.  We have
one(it weighs about 1000lbs!!) and it has a very rich sound.  Another good
brand is GULBRANSEN(They also made player-pianos).  Of course there is
Steinway and even some of the early (1900s) Sears pianos are good(they were
made by someone else but had a Sears or Roebucks decal on it).  Try and find an
upright grand--they have the best sound, in my opinion.

Repairs:
Well, you can do some yourself if you are so inclined.  PLAYER-PIANO CO. in
Witchita, Kansas, is a good source for a lot of parts.  Some repairs are best
left to a technician/tuner.  Unless you are confident about what you are doing,
I would leave it to the tech.

Hope this helps...Good luck and remember--patience and persistence pays off
when looking for a good used piano.

Bill Weissborn

>>> Piano:6
From: engerise@gsmbsf.rtsg.mot.com (Mathew Engeriser)
I'll bet you can pick up an old upright (there is nothing like an old
upright for character) for less than $500.00.  I just bought one for
$300.00, moved it myself (with help from 3 others) and will get it
tuned for ~$50.00.  In the future I will refinish it and it will
look gorgeous.  They don't make them like that anymore!  Just scan
the classifieds.

>>> Piano:7
From: jonas@lamo.dazixco.ingr.com (Scott Jonas)
I'm a beginning pianist, and just posed this same question
to my teacher 3 months ago. He gave me the following
advice:

  Look for a full-size upright, as opposed to a spinet
  or console. Longer strings = superior sound.

  Examine the exterior carefully. Lots of scratches and
  dings means that it's been moved a lot, which isn't
  good for an acoustic piano.

  Play every note. If more than 1 or 2 keys don't work,
  this is a bad sign. Make sure pedals work.

  Open the top and look inside. If the hammers are
  visibly uneven or the interior is filled with dust,
  this is another bad sign.

  Evaluate sound and action. This is pretty subjective.

With this in mind, I clipped some ads from the Denver
newspaper and went shopping. I looked at 4 pianos,
ruling 2 out because they were spinets, 1 because it
was a beater and 1 because the keys wobbled from side
to side. I then drove to a small town (Fort Collins),
where I found what I was looking for:

  1940 Hamilton full upright, walnut exterior, ivory
  & ebony keys. Rebuilt 3 years ago (new hammers and
  heavy duty pegs), still in tune. The seller showed
  me a receipt for the rework ($660, all told).

I paid $800 and another $175 to have it moved 50 miles
to my house. Now that I've been playing it for 2 months,
I can say that it sounds great and I'm very pleased
with it in every respect. Several accomplished pianists
have tried it, and raved over it.

So, from my experience, you can get a terrific sounding
piano for around $1000 if you're willing to spend some
time driving around and seeing what people are selling.

>>> Piano:8
From: kurt@tc.fluke.COM (Kurt Guntheroth)
Well, I'm not an expert, but here are some things I know.  You may know more
than I but I couldn't tell from your brief message.

All the upright pianos you can find will be old, say before 1920.  Nowadays
they just don't make the big uprights.  Too much wood, too much labor, and
too much shipping cost from japan.  You can pay $5k for a piano, but if you
know the right people or have the right luck, you can get the same piano for
about $250.  Look at want ads, or post a request at your church (churches
seem to be a good place to look for pianos. Must be an association between
church and music...).

Upright pianos just have a bigger nicer sound than spinnets.  It's not just
volume, though that's part of it.  Bugger pianos resonate differently.  Go
for an upright if you both play (and can't afford a grand piano :-).

Pianos sound out of tune because they need tuning.  Old pianos sound out of
tune because they havn't been tuned for 50 years.  And maybe because the
action is worn and the strings have crystalized.  But even a total rebuild
will only run $1500, so you can buy an old piano as furniture, have the
action rebuilt and restrung, and still be ahead on the cost of a new one.
(I am getting ready to do this to a piano belonging to my spouse's family).
For cheap piano rebuilds if you're on a budget, call the music school at
cornell (tell me cornell has a music school...).  They'll have a bunch of
names of hungry grad students who have done this.  Find a person to do the
service first.  Then locate the piano.  Then call the service person and ask
them about it.  There were about 2000 (that's two thousand) piano making
companies between 1890 and 1920, and most of them made very good pianos.  An
experienced repair shop will recognize the good brand names.

>>> Piano:9
From: raphael@fx.com (Glen Raphael)
You could rent a piano for $25-$30 a month, and wait for the Clavinova
to come down further in price... :-) Seriously, the Yamaha Clavinova, an
electronic piano, feels fantastic, sounds great and even looks good and 
is well within your budget. (say, $2200) Go to a Yamaha dealer and try
one out before you look elsewhere. The advantages are:

1) it never goes out of tune.
2) it's lighter and therefore more portable.
3) it never goes out of tune.
4) you can plug in headphones to play without disturbing the neighbors
5) it never goes out of tune.

Try it! If you spend the whole wad you can get one that looks just like a
piano as well as sounding just like one.

>>> Piano:10
From: Zara.Haimo@Corp.Sun.COM (Zara Haimo)

There is a company in the San Francisco area called Piano Finders (or
something close to that) that matches people and used pianos up.
They've published a ne at booklet on choosing a used piano.  I ended
up buying from someone else, but used their booklet as a guide.
The couple that run the business restore pianos and he is a very
talented concert pianist too.  I don't have their # handy, bu t they
are in or near the town of Pleasant Hill in the 510 area code.
Informat ion should have their number.

>>> Piano:11
From: Chris Barber <cbarber@bbn.com>
I don't know if anyone else has prepared a summary, but I have
occasionally submitted some long postings on this topic (one of
the few that I have stong opinions about). Perhaps I should sit
down and write this out sometime, but here are some basic rules
from off the top of my head:

   1) Never buy a new piano.

      Pianos need to be "broken in". When the hammers are new,
      they are very soft, and the instrument will tend to have
      a dull muted tone. It takes a couple years of playing before
      the piano will reach its mature tone. So when you buy a brand
      new piano, you cannot be sure how it will sound after you have
      had it a couple of years.

      Furthermore, new pianos are always more expensive than used ones.
      IMHO, it is just not worth the extra money for the privilege of
      breaking it in.

   2) Never buy a piano that you haven't played.

      Every piano is different so you never really know what you are
      getting unless you play it yourself. Of course, if someone offers
      me a genuine Steinway model B in good condition for $500, I would
      take the risk and go for it; but how often will that happen?

   3) Don't worry about cracks in the soundboard unless you can hear them.

      Just worry about how the piano feels and sounds. If the crack does
      not buzz or create some other unpleasant sound, it is probably not
      a problem. My piano has several cracks in the soundboard, but sounds
      wonderful.  However, you should still look for cracks, if for no other
      reason to talk the price down!

   4) Have an experienced piano technician check the piano before you buy.

      Make sure you get someone who is not just a tuner, but someone who
      actually works on the guts of pianos. This should not cost very much.
      My technician charged me $15 to look over my piano before I bought it
      (in 1991).

   5) If you are spending a lot, make sure you are in love with it!

      If you are getting more than a cheap practice piano (spending more 
      than a couple of thousand dollars), you should really love the piano.
      I spent more on my piano than I would ever spend on a car, but I 
      don't regret it because I like it so much.

   6) Avoid uprights shorter than about 46" and grands shorter than about 6'.

      Pianos shorter than this tend to have grumbly, unpleasant sounding
      bass notes. Of course, there may always be a constraint due to 
      available space or cost.

   7) Never buy a piano that you have not heard tuned.

      If you haven't heard it in tune, you cannot be sure that it
      *can* be tuned!  The most common reason that a piano cannot be
      tuned is that it has worn out the pin block which holds the 
      tuning pins and the tuning pins will no longer hold reliably. This
      usually requires that the pin block be replaced. This does not 
      really apply to new or relatively new pianos (but remember rule #1). 

   8) Don't get carried away by the beauty of the case.

      Unless you are buying the piano just for furniture value, try to
      ignore how it looks and concentrate on how it sounds. You can always
      have it refinished, but it is a poor piano inside, there may be very
      little you can do about it.

   9) Good sources of used pianos:

      Piano dealers usually have used pianos they have gotten on trade-ins.
      This is the most expensive way to buy a used piano, but you can
      sometimes find an exceptional piano this way. My own piano is a 
      6' Steinway model L which was a performance piano maintained by 
      Steinway itself for 10 years and which I bought through the local
      Steinway dealer in Boston.

      Piano technicians and tuners often know a lot of people with good
      pianos that are thinking about selling them. You might call a number
      of reputable tuners and offer them a commission for any leads that 
      result in a purchase.

      Piano rebuilders will often buy and restore old pianos and sell them
      at reasonable prices. However, don't necessarily believe that a 
      piano is going to be great just because it has been rebuilt.

      Want ads.

    10) Good piano models:

      Steinway, Bechstein, Bosendorfer, Falcone, Mason & Hamlin

      I personally dislike Yamahas and Baldwins but if you play nothing
      but jazz you might tolerate these. As far as uprights are concerned
      I really don't like anything except Steinways for its richness of
      tone. The Yamaha tends to be very bright sounding; however, they
      are inexpensive, well made, and tend to hold their tune very well,
      so it is worth considering if you can stand the sound.
      
      If you are buying an upright but want to get a grand piano someday,
      consider the resale value. Only Steinway uprights will hold their
      value. I actually was given %30 more than what I spent on my
      1986 Steinway upright when I traded it in for my current piano. They
      are a lot more expensive than any other upright, but if you can afford
      it and know that you will be getting a grand piano someday, it is a
      worthwhile investment.
      
That's all I have time for. Hope this helps....