From: Timothy Nolan <TBNJ@CORNELLA.cit.cornell.edu>
Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai
Subject: science and religion (was: science vs. religion)
Date: 9 Nov 92 21:11:51 GMT
Article-I.D.: ogicse.45680
Organization: -

I changed the subject line to substitute "and" for "vs."
The use of "versus" implies, to me, that science and religion
are antagonists in a contest, and that if one "wins" then the other
must "lose."   I do not see the relationship this way.
My understanding is that religion and science address distinct
aspects of truth, and that they are in harmony.

In <45066@ogicse.ogi.edu> arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee) writes:

sw=excerpt of quote from Star of the West
ka=Ken Arromdee

 (beginning of quote deleted)


>Cremation suppresses it speedily from attainment to these
>transformations, the elements becoming so quickly decomposed that
>transformation to these various stages is checked."
>
>                               Star of the West vol 11, No. 19, p. 317

ka>If I read the above passage correctly, it makes a scientific claim
ka>about the substances that make up the body.  This scientific claim is
ka>false, just like scientific claims made by other religions, for
ka>instance claims that evolution is wrong.

There is an issue with regard to Ken's question which has not yet been
addressed; this is the authenticity of the Baha'i Sacred Writings.
The quote on which Ken's question focusses is from "Star of the West",
a Baha'i magazine published in the U.S. in the the early years of this
century.

The words are purportedly from Abdu'l Baha, the son of the Founder of
Baha'i Faith. According to Baha'i teaching, Abdu'l Baha was the
divinely guided and inspired interpreter of Baha'u'llah's words;
therefore Baha'is believe that whatever Abdu'l Baha said is true.

My questions are: Did Abdu'l Baha actually say what He is quoted as
saying? Was the quote accurately translated?

In the early years of this century, very little of the Baha'i sacred
writings were available to the American believers, and what writings
were available were not always good translations.

This may seem an attempt to evade Ken's challenging question, but
it is not. Before trying to explain or understand a statement which
is "said to be" Baha'i teaching, it is crucial to determine whether the
statement is in fact an authentic part of the Baha'i sacred writings.

In the Baha'i Faith, nothing is accepted as authentic Baha'i teaching
unless the original text is known to exist. The impressions or
memories of individual Baha'is may be of interest, but are not equivalent
to the Holy Writings.

So, the first matter to be settled is whether Abdu'l Baha, in writing,
really made those statements about cremation.  It is possible that
the quote represents someone's recollection of what He said; since
memory is not perfect, someone's recollection might not correctly reflect
what Abdu'l Baha actually said.

The second question is about translation. The Baha'i literature in
America, 70 or 80 years ago, contains many translations which were
significantly improved later by Shoghi Effendi. (I admit I do not
know Arabic or Farsi...I'm relying on the judgement of others as to
the quality of  translation.) If the statement from "Star of the West"
is a poor translation, then it does not provide a true sense of what
Abdu'l Baha meant.

ka>Is it considered a mistake for a Baha'i to believe, in this case, what
ka>science says instead of what your founder says, when they contradict?

Because truth is one, there cannot be any real contradiction between
the correct findings of scientific investigation and the authentic
teachings of a Messenger of God. Apparent contradictions, in my view,
may be due to lack of complete understanding of the MEANING of
Divine revelation, or of scientific findings, or of both.

ka>When one of your teachings conflicts with science, is it your
ka>teaching, or science, which has made the mistake?

As noted above, apparent conflicts may not be real. Apparent
disagreements between valid, reliable scientific research, and the
authentic teachings of a Manifestation of God are usually based on
incomplete or inaccurate understanding of the scientific statements
or of the sacred writings,  or of both.

                         Tim Nolan