From: brown@NCoast.ORG (Stan Brown)
Subject: Arguing people out of suicide (was Re: Christmas comes but once a year)
Organization: Oak Road Systems, Cleveland Ohio USA
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1992 18:51:42 GMT

In article <92361.082621U60703@uicvm.uic.edu> <U60703@uicvm.uic.edu> writes:

[much deleted]

>Your duh,why? statement also angered me too though....it made me feel like
>us survivors (which is what we are) just stand around perplexed and in
>O cloud of stupidity....not true....we just don't UNDERSTAND the act...we
>cannot relate....esp. with all of the help available today....I read that
>80% (I think it was 80%) of all suicide victims don't go/refuse help, and
>that out of these 80%, apx. 2/3 could have been prevented....some with
>therapy/anti-depressants or combo of both....most don't go for help though
>because of the percieved stigma attached to needing help...my sister thought
>she SHOULD handle things....wouldn't go  for help....

Two issues here: You say your sister didn't appreciate the pain her
death would cause you, and that she didn't really try to get help.  I'd
like to respond to both.

I defer to your grief, and to knowledge of your sister's particular
circumstances that I don't have (and that you are under no obligation to
share).  What I wil say will not be about your sister (it couldn't be),
but in a more general way with particular reference to my own
experiences and feelings.

I. On trying avenues of help

It is all to easy for survivors to blame the person who commits suicide
for not having gone for help.  Rather than be theoretical, let me tell
of my experience.  Not one of the therapists I saw, each of them for a
year to several years, helped me.  Not one of the drugs pushed at me by
psychiatrists had any beneficial effect for more than the first few
days--though the side effects endured.  When I dared speak of suicide to
one psychiatrist, I was threatened with instant incarceration unless I
recanted.  Now what sort of help would you recommend to someone with
these experiences?  

All too often, the subtext is "This person wouldn't have to be unhappy;
he or she could get help."  Bear in mind that that person feels his or
her pain much more than anyone else, and would get help if he or she
could.  But when avenues have been tried and proved fruitless, despair
is (it seems to me) quite a rational response.



II. On refraining from suicide because of pain to survivors

>Your statement also seemed to me to minimize the severe pain/trauma a  whole
>family would go through..as if "it" would happen and they'd wonder why,duh...
>and then just carry on as  if it were just another little glitch in their day.
>IMO....this is the biggest false perception that a person who's contemplating
>suicide has....

I don't think so, at least not in most cases and certainly not in all.
Perhaps the suicide quite rationally balances his or her continuing
pain against survivors' temporary and lesser pain (which they must feel
sooner or later in any case).

A person may say, "Let's see.  My choices are A, to drag out my
existence for years or decades until I'm lucky enough to fall ill with
some socially acceptable disease like cancer, or until I kill myself in
a socially acceptable [i.e., slow] way with booze or tobacco or
overeating; or B, to end my pain now.  If I choose A or B, my survivors
will feel grief and loss.  If I choose A, they'll feel grief sooner and
possibly guilt as well.  But either way, they will have grief and loss;
the only question is now or later."

"So should I add years or decades of virtually constant pain for myself,
just to postpone the pain my survivors must feel?  That makes no sense. 
So I choose A because it is rational given my clear, sober look at my own
life.  What, then, is my obligation to my survivors?  To recognize that
they will feel pain, and to do my reasonable best not to increase it.

"That may mean any or all of: assuring them that they could not have
prevented my choice by doing or not doing anything differently; assuring
them that this was a sober, reflective choice on my part and not a
momentary whim; letting them know with specifics what other
possibilities I had tried; etc."

Would people who love me ask me to endure years or decades of virtually
constant physical pain just so that they would not feel bad at losing
me?  Surely not: even for our pets we care enough to recognize when they
would prefer a dignified death to continued painful life.  I would hope 
to receive at least the same dignity and consideration as a dog or cat.
I would hope that they would respect my decision about an acceptable 
But emotional pain is just as crippling as physical pain--people who
haven't experienced both can't appreciate that no matter how they try.
-- 
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems                      brown@Ncoast.ORG
"If you click on its capital, Ouagadougou, you'll hear its name
pronounced--in this instance, a most helpful feature."  
                                  --PC Magazine, 92/12/22, pg 352