From: harkcom@spinach.pa.yokogawa.co.jp (Alton Harkcom)
Subject: Re: Not a Myth at All
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1993 02:04:47 GMT
	<HARKCOM.93Jan6095158@spinach.pa.yokogawa.co.jp>
	<C0G98r.5I1@ncifcrf.gov>
Organization: Yokogawa Electric Corporation, Tokyo, Japan

In article <C0G98r.5I1@ncifcrf.gov> masuda@fcs280b.ncifcrf.gov
   (Michiaki Masuda) writes:

 =}In article <HARKCOM.93Jan6095158@spinach.pa.yokogawa.co.jp> harkcom@spinach.pa.yokogawa.co.jp (Alton Harkcom) writes:
 =}
 =}>Maybe I can ask a few question that will help clear this up a bit...
 =}
 =}  I'm afraid that you jumped into a thread that developed while you were
 =}away on vacation and that you missed some points that were stated before
 =}by other netters including Maiko-san and Fester-san.
 =}I hope answers to your questions will help clear up your misunderstandings.

   Interesting way to put it: "(my) misunderstandings"...

   I caught up on the thread before replying.  The earlier articles
were expired so that I missed the very beginning, but I do go back far
enought to see the beginnings of this tangent...

  I hope my questions/replies regarding your answers will help clear
up your misunderstandings.  :)

 =}>   If someone were so concerned with their service that they were
 =}>worried as to whether or not they could satisfy their customer,
 =}>wouldn't they have prepared to deal with such situations (such as
 =}>learning English).  Wouldn't it be someone who was not concerned
 =}>mainly with service who would turn away customers based on race?
 =}
 =}   If they have a foreign customer, say, once in three years, I wonder if
 =}it gives a good motivation for them to learn English. If a shopowner has
 =}to be prepared to deal with such situations, he should learn not only
 =}English but also Chinese, Korean, French, German, etc. as well.

   If the shop only has a foreign customer once in three years then there
is no need for a "No Foreigners" sign is there?  If the shopkeeper is
worried that there will be enough English speaking customers to warrant
making an English sign then there is enough worry to suggest learning
English rather than being a racist, isn't there???

 =} The original point made was that mastering basic Japanese might be helpful
 =}for a foreigner to decrease the unpleasant experiences.

   It may be helpful to some extent, but as the thread has often marked
'In the face of racist barriers, no amount of knowledge of the Japanese
language is helpful'...  Isn't this what the tangent you were on was
discussing?

   And as this group has often marked 'The more knowledge one has of the
Japanese language, the more one will be faced with unpleasant experiences.'

 =}>   Aren't the results of the TOEFL interpreted soley on the answers
 =}>given and not on the race of the individual giving the answers?
 =}>Isn't it possible for members of any race to take the TOEFL?
 =}>Isn't the main point of the exam to test the English ability of
 =}>non-native speakers regardless of race?
 =}
 =}   For example, if a shopowner deals with an American customers who have a
 =}command of Japanese and not with those who cannot communicate in Japanese,
 =}that discrimination is not based on race. I used the TOEFL example 
 =}because I saw the analogy with this type of situation.

   If knowledge of the Japanese language is essential for the shopkeeper
to communicate with the customer then there is nothing racist about using
language skills as basis for turning away customers.  But of course this
means turning away Japanese who can not communicate in the Japanese
language...  Universities in the US teach exclusively in the English
language and the TOEFL is used to demonstrate that the prospective
student has enough knowledge of the language to understand the
material presented.  For students who have other things to base this
judgement on (high school English scores and such) then the TOEFL is
not necessary as the same criterion can be used...

   For most shops, the only necessary language is "money".  Any
shopkeeper trying to fool themselves by thinking their native language
is necessary should remember how many of their customers actually
communicate with them through the language...

 =}> =}   If having their family/friends/loved ones injured/disabled/killed,
 =}> =}having their land bombed, and having their life destructed is not a bad 
 =}> =}experience, you are right.
 =}
 =}>   Does this make it OK for those who suffered to punish all people of
 =}>a different race from themselves?
 =}
 =}   It is nothing related to race. The enemy could have been Asian, Indian,
 =}Caucasian, African, whatever. Historically, there should have been similar
 =}partizan activities between Japanese, too.

   But you were using this argument to support the placing of "No
Foreigners" signs in shops in Japan before the Occupation...  Notice
that your recent answer shows the racism involved with those signs...

 =}>   Since it was more popular to be anti-US after the war, wouldn't
 =}>there be more advantages to racist practices?
 =}
 =}  It was more popular to be anti-US? Which country are you talking about?

   Japan of course.  Before the US troops moved in to show that the
government propaganda was bullshit, the general attitude was that the
US was bad and would do horrible things to Japan...

 =}>  Aren't non-racist
 =}>practices usually more disadvantageous when not practiced by the
 =}>majority?
 =}
 =}  Let's imagine most Japanese stores rejected American customers. Those 
 =}stroes should have had a bad reputation in the occupation army. One 
 =}possible consequence is that many GIs frequent other small number of
 =}stores where they are welcome. In those days, it was most likely that
 =}dealing with Americans were highly beneficial at least economically. 

   Only in areas with large concentrations of US soldiers (a very tiny
portion of Japan)...  In the rest of Japan (the majority) where there
was little or no foreign money the shopkeepers would do better to
keep with popular attitudes, would they not?

 =}   When did I say that what the US did during WWII was war crimes?

   You didn't, I did.  You mentioned the killing and such that the US
did.  I call such things crime...

 =}I'd appreciate it if you could stop putting your words into my mouth.

   I didn't.  I'd appreciate it if you would stick to the topic and
stop going off on unrelated tangents when avoiding replying to what
was said...

 =}In addition, I am not understanding that there was a "post-war racism."
 =}As I stated previously, it appears to me more like a resistance against
 =}enemy who happened to be American.

   That's the reason for this thread's existence.  You are more than
willing to call racist activities in the US "racist", but you refuse
to call the same activities in Japan "racist".

   I'll answer this tangent anyway...

   When the war was finished, the US was not the enemy of Japan.  And
there was no need for resistance as the US was moving in to help rebuild.
The people at the time could not understand this though (who could with
all that government bullshit they'd been fed).  Out of these people's
pre judgements of non-Japanese races (racist prejudices...) some chose
to judge all foreigners as "unwanted".  This was a racist act...

 =}>   Just as it is pointless to argue that the Japanese deserved what
 =}>they got, it is pointless to argue that foreigners deserve the racist
 =}>shopkeepers practices...
 =}
 =}   When did I say foreigners deserve what they encountered.

   When you tried to justify "No Foreigners" signs by saying that the
US's actions during WWII may have given the Japanese enough "bad
experiences" to warrant their racist activities...

 =} What I said was
 =}that anti-US feeling among some Japanese immediately after WWII had been
 =}an understandable reaction. It was just as understandable as the reaction
 =}of ordinary citizens in the US after Pearl Harbor.

   Understandable, maybe.  Racist, yes.  The ordinary citizens of Japan
at the end WWII were feeling racist hatred for foreigners as the ordinary
citizens of the US at the end f the bombing of Pearl Harbor were feeling
racist hatred for the Japanese (over generalization, but close enough).

 =}>   What about examples of things like discrimination against Mexicans
 =}>in California?  Wasn't such racism rationalized as 'language' (cultural)
 =}>differences?
 =}
 =}  If the discrimination is based on language differences and an
 =}appropriate language skill lets them avoid discrimination, calling it
 =}as racism would not be appropriate.

   But that is the point here.  The discriminatin is based on racial
differences and language is just one of the false rationalizations
used to avoid recognizing it.  Language ability was never a factor
in the discriminatory practices.  i.e. "No Foreigners" means that
foreigners aren't allowed regardless of language ability...

 =}  As far as I know, in Florida where there are an increasing number of
 =}Spanish-speaking immigrants, they decided to make English as _the official_
 =}language. This could justify any disadvantage that people suffer based on
 =}a language difference. If this can be called as a racist regulation,
 =}there should be some action taken to abolish it.

   The regulation is not racist as there needs to be an official
language.  If however it is used as an excuse for such practices
as denying housing to certain races based on the assumption of not
being able to speak the official language (Japan's situation), then
those guilty of such practices are being racist.

 =}>   Do any of these racist practices not get called racist by even the
 =}>Japanese media and people?
 =}
 =}>   Does the example given by Mr. Fester make more sense now?  Does the
 =}>mere fact that the incident occured in Japan rather than the US excuse
 =}>the incident from being racist even though it was discrimination based
 =}>only on race?
 =}
 =}   As I already mentioned several times, I am not trying to excuse or
 =}justify the unreasonable treatment of foreigners in Japan. I'm trying
 =}to explain the background mentality or social factors (e.g., racial
 =}homogeneity) in Japan to people like you who cannot but believe that the
 =}discrimination in Japan is only on race. If that is the case, how would 
 =}it be possible to explain why some foreigners are more discriminated than
 =}others? Is it just that they are equally discriminated, but some are
 =}more sensitive than others?

   You still seem to have missed the point.  We are not saying that
racist tendencies are the only reasons for the discrimination.  We
are only saying that whatever the reasons for a racist practice,
the practice is still racist and is wrong for being such.

   If a shopkeeper bans martians because a martian killed his family
and he does not want to be the next victim.  Then he is being a
racist.  It could easily have been one of his own family members
that had done the killing.

   If a shopkeeper bans martians because a martian shoplifted (in
the earthly sense) then he is being a racist because many of his
own people (probably his own family members or even himself) shoplift.

   If a shopkeeper bans martians because he can't speak martian
then he is not only being racist but ignorant also.  He is trying
to fool himself into believing that his racism is rational.  Lying
to himslef in such a way makes him ignorant...

 =}>   Does a discussion on a non-existent (or never experienced) misuse
 =}>of a term excuse a practice which is properly defined by that term?
 =}
 =}   Sorry, I didn't get the point on this.

   Your claim that since the word "racism" is sometimes misused then it
is wrong to call Japanese racist practices "racism".  I was just pointing
out that this was an irrational and false claim...

   It is possible that I misunderstood you.  If so, could you please
explain why you gave a long explanation of the possible misuse of the
word racism as your second argument against banning foreigners in
Japan being a racist practice?

 =}>   Aren't we all mature enough to know that trying to rationalize racism
 =}>by arguments like "bad experience", "cultural differences" or "what is
 =}>racism?" are merely forms of denial?
 =}
 =}   I've been trying to be mature in a different way.

   Offering several forms of denial is mature?

 =}I just thought that
 =}in order for us to correct the unfavorable situation in Japan which is
 =}regarded as "racism", it was essential to analyze why that's happening.

   Offering several forms of denial is analysis?

   The first step in correcting any problem is to recognize the problem.
This must be done before the problem can be corrected.  Until people
accept that their racist practices are racist and wrong then they
will not be willing to change them regardless of the amount of analysis
done...

   In regard to racism in Japan, most people are still at the point
of denying that such exists or rationalizing it to be something else.
Until this defense mechanism is overcome and people can 'see' that
these practices are racism and that they are wrong then there is no
room for analysis or correction...

 =}If you all prefer the maturity to discuss only the outcome without looking
 =}at the basis which it is derived from, I'd just shut up my mouth. 

   We wish to discuss the issue without using rationalizations, other
forms of denial, passing blame, or any of the other human weaknesses.
However, since we are human, that is kind of difficult.  But it would
be nice if we at least tried...

 =}>   When the onsens and sentos were putting up the "no foreigners"
 =}>('gaijin dame'/'gaijin okotowari') signs, weren't the popular terms
 =}>used by the Japanese media for referring to such events "jinshuu
 =}>sabetu", "racism" and such?
 =}
 =}  I am not the best person to answer this question because I don't remember
 =}seeing any media report on this particular matter (onsens & sentos) when I 
 =}was in Japan.

   You missed it then.  There were some old fart nationalists who
couldn't handle the signs being called racist.  Tehy went out of
their way to try and use the same rationalizations and denials
which I mentioned in my last post.  Even the TV 'talents' (talentless
individuals who display thier ignorance and lack of talent
relentlessly on television) got into the act.

 =}  In the US, I saw a Japanese TV program that reported the difficulties
 =}for a foreigner to find an apartment in Japan. As far as I remember, they
 =}used the term, "gaijin sabetsu" but not "jinshu sabetsu."

   You have just given me a gem.  This little gem demonstrates the very
point of this entire sub-thread...

   The term "gaijin sabetu" is a term for racism just as much as
"jinshuu sabetu".  The only difference is that "gaijin sabetu"
points out that it is Japanese racism being discussed.  But you
wouldn't accept "gaijin sabetu" (discrimination against gaijin)
as a term of racism even thouh it was used in reference to a racist
practice...

 =}>  If one does not feel that these were
 =}>the popular terms then why was the news full of reporters using such
 =}>terms to describe the situation?
 =}
 =}  Would you care to write an inquiry letter to the reporters?

   I agree with them.  Seems that you are the one questioning the
medias acceptance of Japanese racism as racism...  Perhaps you might
write a letter to the Japanese media explaning your point of view?

 =}P.S. Al, why don't we do some experiments in Tokyo? If you could find some
 =}"gaijin okotowari" bars, what about going there together to see how they
 =}react?

   I've been to many "gaijin dame" places (most places aren't as
polite as your "gaijin okotowari" suggests).  Such bars are usually
hard to find unless you are looking for sex-for-sale (they're not
the only such bars though).  The places I usually get the "no gaijin"
treatment are usually your run of the mill businesses.

   There have been so many incidents and most of them occurred so
long ago that my memory has probably distorted them greatly.  The
recent ones have all dealt with real estate agents, banks, a certain
company that I can't mention, and places like that.

   In the past, I have been turned away from Tokyo discos,
restaurants, bars, hardware stores, part-time jobs, parties,
etc... due to my race (not my nationality or language ability).