HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: rsr@soda.berkeley.edu (Roy S. Rapoport)
Newsgroups: alt.transgendered
Subject: Me? Clueless? Naaah :)
Date: 16 Dec 1992 13:28:24 GMT
Organization: U.C. Berkeley, CS Undergraduate Association
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: soda.berkeley.edu


Where to start? 

193 days ago (but who's counting?) I came out to myself as bi.  This was a
big thing for me (naah, really?).  Sort of shook up all of my points of
view.  It certainly made me consider the permanency of my opinions, and how
I define myself.  After all, when you define yourself as a straight vanilla
type for close to 21 years and you suddenly find you're wrong, you start
considering what else about you you sort of took for granted ... 

Then I found that I was pro-feminist (long story) ... then I found that I
actually _liked_ BDSM ... 

And so I've started considering ... what am I? There are very few things I'm
sure of these days ... I'm not even sure of my religion anymore, I was born
Jewish, raised Jewish, yet I respect another religion, another religion's
deity more than I do my own ... 

This is alt.transgendered, right? Am I transgendered? 

Umm, I dunno ... I don't _think_ I'm trangendered, but I don't even
_understand_ it, so how can I know it?

I mean, what the hell is TG? I consider TG and CD to not necessarily be
interrelated (am I wrong?).  I know I have no desire to CD (Gah, me in a
dress.  Sorry ... don't have the body for that :) ).  This has nothing to do
with TG, though ...

What is a TG? Saying "It is a person who self-labels as a woman," to me,
isn't enough.  I can _accept_ that.  I can _respect_ that.  I can call this
person by her chosen name, refer to her as 'she', and accept her as a woman
...

But there's this frustrating barrier of understanding that stands between me
and TG.  To me, accepting TG isn't enough.  I want to understand it, if I
can.  I will acquiesce if you tell me I cannot, but I would like to try ...

How does one 'self-identify' as a woman? 
What is the female mentality?

We're getting into gender roles, and I'm not sure how related they are to
this issue, because I'm not really even clear on them.  

I suppose one way to express it is, 

What does it mean to be a woman?

What does it mean to you, women, who have had to realize that you're women
despite your body?

I have so many female friends, their personalities are so varied ... I don't
know what makes them female.  Jeez, it's frustrating even _thinking_ about
this.


You have no obligation to teach me, or educate me.  Certainly it seems that
you folks need to spend your emotional energy supporting each other ...
after all, so few of us 'mundanely-gendered' help ... I would appreciate
some clues, though ... 

-roy, the clueless

-- 
Roy S. Rapoport     internet: rsr@soda.berkeley.edu      bitnet: rsrsoda@ucbocf
"What I used to think is me ... is just a faded memory ... " -NIN
DISCLAIMER:  I speak for the University of California at Berkeley.  Rrrright.
Newsgroups: alt.transgendered
From: krh9895@ultb.isc.rit.edu (K.R. Hall )
Subject: Re: TS show on TV
Originator: krh9895@ultb
Organization: Rochester Institute of Technology
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 17:43:07 GMT

In article <1992Dec12.201554.26770@penet.fi> an299@anon.penet.fi (Judy) writes:
>did anyone catch Picket Fences this week?  This was one of the
>few fictional portrayals of a TS that I have seen that touches
>on the real issues.  Although a GG played the part, I was 
>very impressed with the story and how the small town dealt
>with the breaking story that she had once been a man.
>
>Judy (|)
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------


can anyone please tell me how this ended?  i saw right up to, but not 
	including, where tom skerrits "daughter" confronted him in the
	kitchen.  after my friend turned the tv off to talk to his parents,
	i had no where to watch the end.  what happened to her, her job,
	her boyfriend, what did the daughter say ect.....
please send this via e-mail since the news server here has been kinda
flaky....   thanks

kathy

Newsgroups: alt.transgendered
From: w2lee@argo.acs.oakland.edu (Lorraine Lee)
Subject: Re: Wow! stockings!
Reply-To: w2lee@argo.acs.oakland.edu
Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, MI
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1992 22:56:43 GMT

In article <BzGsJL.8FL@newcastle.ac.uk>, w.p.coyne@newcastle.ac.uk writes:

> I thought pantyhose and tights were different words for the same thing?
> What's the difference

Pantyhose are tighter.

Actually tightness of clothing is a concept I find intimidating.  During the
very early history of this newsgroup there were some people hinting at maybe
posting some "gaff recipes" somewhere along the line...

>>i wonder if some of this dislike of stockings is because, when i work at
>>a place with a dress code, i Have to wear them--they aren't a fun aside, or
>>even something akin to dressing 'naturally' for me (although tights and
>>skirts often are).
>
> Do tell, just how do they know whether your wearing them or tights :-)

The same way you know whether you are wearing 100% cotton socks or 100% nylon
socks.

>  Notice its pants, trousers, briefs, jeans, tights etc but pantyhose.
>All other double leg garments seem to be plural while hose is singular,
>anyone any idea why?
>  It always possible that newspaper adverts for dirt cheap pairs of jeans
>etc could be refering to two detached leg :-)

Why are the English always asking the Americans why the English language is so
confused?

For that matter, why ask why when you can drink beer?

(heeheeheeheeheehee)

Yours in humo(u)r,
Lorraine
Newsgroups: alt.transgendered
From: celeste%express@freedom.msfc.nasa.gov (Celeste)
Subject: Re: WHY?
Followup-To: alt.transgendered
Organization: AEGIS
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 22:32:04 GMT

In article <1992Dec15.204918.17518@jupiter.sun.csd.unb.ca>,
wdickeson@mta.ca wrote:
> 
> In article <rsvanc00.724416161@mik.uky.edu>, rsvanc00@nx34.mik.uky.edu (Randolph S. Vance) writes:
[stuff deleted]
> >I didn't think that the Scots were PERVERTED, perhaps my viewpoint is 
> >self-centered, is there anyone out there who thinks that the Scottish 
> >are PERVERTED?  Personally I think they can hold their own in a fight, and 
> >are more masculine than most Americans.
> EXCUSE ME! WHEN DID I EVER SAY THAT THE SCOTS WERE PERVERTS? IN THEIR 
> DISTINCT CULTURE AND HERITAGE (OF WHICH SOME OF MY ANCESTORS COME FROM!)
> IT IS THEIR WAY FOR MEN TO WEAR KILTS AND WOMEN TO WEAR PANTS! THAT IS NOT
> THE WAY IT IS HERE HOWEVER WHERE THE SOCIAL AND MORAL IMPLICATIONS ARE 
> MUCH MORE DETAILED. IN OUR CULTURE, MEN DON'T WEAR DRESSES WHEN OF SANE 
> MIND AND PEACE WITH GOD. WE'LL SEE WHOSE MORALS STAND UP TO JUDGEMENT
> BY GOD (WHICH BY THE WAY, I DO HOPE YOU CAN PASS-SINCERELY-BUT I WOULD 
> LOOK OVER YOUR MORALS IF YOU HOPE TO DO SO, TOO) GOD WILL LET US KNOW 
> ABOUT THIS ONE IN THE AFTER-LIFE- 'NUFF SAID

You stated that any man wearing a dress was perverted. That included
men in Scotland since there was no stated exclusion. Now you add
a culture as a means of changing what you percive as God's law.
Are you into "situation ethicts?"

I am glad I am not "here". My culture is else where.

In my culture, men do wear dresses when of sane mind and peace with
God. We eat, drink, go shopping and worship in a dress. Some of
us even work in a dress. One of my cross dressing friends is
very religious and is a minister.
He showed me much about the acceptance and love of God. He encourged
me to return to orginized religion and not feel excluded just
because society and a few miss informed people look down on me.

Culture is a growing and evolving thing. There is a shopping mall
that accepts us and enjoys our pantroniage. There, cross dressers
are accepted. There is a culture that we are part of.

Love and hugs,

Celeste
From: wendy@sundown.mil.wi.us (Wendy)
Date: 16 Dec 92 07:14:22 GMT
Subject: Re: WHY?
Newsgroups: alt.transgendered
Organization: Wendy's world
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]

wdickeson@mta.ca wrote:
: >
: >I didn't think that the Scots were PERVERTED, perhaps my viewpoint is 
: >self-centered, is there anyone out there who thinks that the Scottish 
: >are PERVERTED?  Personally I think they can hold their own in a fight, and 
: >are more masculine than most Americans.
: EXCUSE ME! WHEN DID I EVER SAY THAT THE SCOTS WERE PERVERTS? IN THEIR 
: DISTINCT CULTURE AND HERITAGE (OF WHICH SOME OF MY ANCESTORS COME FROM!)
: IT IS THEIR WAY FOR MEN TO WEAR KILTS AND WOMEN TO WEAR PANTS! THAT IS NOT
: THE WAY IT IS HERE HOWEVER WHERE THE SOCIAL AND MORAL IMPLICATIONS ARE 
: MUCH MORE DETAILED. IN OUR CULTURE, MEN DON'T WEAR DRESSES WHEN OF SANE 
: MIND AND PEACE WITH GOD. WE'LL SEE WHOSE MORALS STAND UP TO JUDGEMENT
: BY GOD (WHICH BY THE WAY, I DO HOPE YOU CAN PASS-SINCERELY-BUT I WOULD 
: LOOK OVER YOUR MORALS IF YOU HOPE TO DO SO, TOO) GOD WILL LET US KNOW 
: ABOUT THIS ONE IN THE AFTER-LIFE- 'NUFF SAID
:
Celeste,

Hay sis, Why do you bother reasoning with this pitiful excuse of a
human being. The amount of understanding and compassion he has can be
placed on the head of a pin. He probably would be right at home with
some of the hatemonging religious fundies.

So put him in you kill file and ignore this shithead.

Wendy
Newsgroups: alt.transgendered
From: Thomas.Weihrich@arbi.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de (Thomas Weihrich)
Subject: Re: You bunch of freaks
Organization: University of Oldenburg, Germany
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 20:03:37 GMT

w.p.coyne@newcastle.ac.uk writes:

>Thomas.Weihrich@arbi.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de (Thomas Weihrich) writes:

>>Please note that insults in public may lead to prosecution by your local
>>law enforcement agency. 
>Are you sure this applies to the UK?  I thought if someone insulted uou
>in the UK you can take them to court and sue them, but as it is a 
>civil not a criminal offence the police won't do it for you.
I cannot tell about the UK, but -

>  Are you saying in Germany insulting someone in public can lead to the
>police prosecuting you?

Yes, it can. Although it is no offence that leads to automatic
prosecution by the law enforcement authorities, the only thing the
offended person needs to do is go to the police and press a charge. This
will lead to prosecution by a criminal court, not by a civil court. It
is very expensive to insult a person in Germany. A simple word like
A??hole can cost you about 1000 US$ or even more. Naturally you can
take the person to a civil court afterwards and sue them.

I do think that this topic does not belong here. I just could not resist
posting this because the rantings of a certain person were more than
insulting. I am willing to discuss this matter in email, though, if
anyone is interested.

Regards
Thomas
-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thomas Weihrich					| NIC-Handle TW166
Thomas.Weihrich@Informatik.Uni-Oldenburg.DE	|
						|	   _
Thomas.Weihrich@WWWA.ORG			|	  /_/__     _
						|	 (_/(__)==== \
------------------------------------------------|	 ,-,\%=] ,-,\[
						|	( O )## ( O )
 I really need to do a backup -		        |--------'-'-----'-'----------
 	it would be terrible if 		|
	 only a single gif got lost		| Steed = '90 K100 LT
						|
#include <std_disclaimer.h>			------------------------------
						
Newsgroups: alt.transgendered
From: russw@cs.utexas.edu (Russ Williams)
Newsgroups: alt.transgendered
Subject: Hating one's body, was Re: Me? Clueless? Naaah :)
Date: 18 Dec 1992 19:18:30 -0600
Organization: Great Northern Hotel
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: im4u.cs.utexas.edu

In article <450352@sundown.mil.wi.us> wendy@sundown.mil.wi.us (Wendy) writes:
>Yes, it is frustrating. Ask a real woman how she would know she's a woman
>if she couldn't rely on the fact that her genitals were female. I'll bet
>you'd get answers similar to "well, I just know I am". Ask yourself the
>same question.
>
>Being in a male body is horrible. I hate it!!!! Why did this mistake
>happen? I dunno! I've been asking myself those questions for years. I 
>just got back from the most emotional therapy seesion I have ever had.
>I cried so much I fell like I want to throw up. So believe me, it's so
>very hard.

It's always interesting to see how much variation there is between
people.  I don't get why being in a male body is horrible and you hate it.
I believe you, and I certainly don't mean this as an attack.  But it's
an alien concept to me.  I'm a male and am perfectly happy living in a
male body, but I think if I were to wake up one day magically transformed
into a female body, I would not hate that.  (Well, the problem of
social acceptance would be big, but...)  I mean, I think women's bodies
are beautiful and they look like they'd be neat vessels in which to live,
but I'm also quite happy living in a male body.  I've crossdressed on
occasion and enjoyed looking female, but most of the time I dress as a
male typically does.

So I'm curious: would most people feel horrible living in the body of
one given sex, or would you be happy in either sex (assuming you didn't
get hassled by obnoxious society...).  I personally would like to live
in the future when sex changes are easy, cheap and safe.  ("Gee, I think
I'll go to the party in a female body tonight...")

So is this transgendered, or am I intergendered? :-)

Russ
Newsgroups: alt.transgendered
From: an1669@anon.penet.fi (Joanne Isabella Lisa Nicolette)
Subject: Sigh...
X-Anonymously-To: alt.transgendered
Organization: Anonymous contact service
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1992 01:35:25 GMT

Hi again, girls!  
  It's been great talking with you ladies for the last month or two, but now
I've got winter break and won't be able to post until mid-January.
Bye, girls!  Happy holidays!  I love you all.
          Love,
            Joanne Isabella

 P.S.: if anyone wants they can write me email, I love to hear anything, 
especially from one of my special sisters.  I won't get to read it until I get
back though.  :^)

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Newsgroups: alt.transgendered
From: mamacdonald@mta.ca (Steve MacDonald)
Subject: Curious
Reply-To: mamacdonald@mta.ca
Organization: Mount Allison U, Sackville, N.B. Canada 
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1992 04:09:50 GMT

  Could someone please explain to me just how they get the rich
creamy chocolate inside the Caramilk bar?  Thanks.

                                          Don Guerdo
Newsgroups: alt.transgendered
From: wdickeson@mta.ca
Subject: Re: WHY?
Reply-To: wdickeson@mta.ca
Organization: Mount Allison U, Sackville, N.B. Canada 
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 00:00:58 GMT

In article <celeste-151292162249@128.158.16.248>, celeste%express@freedom.msfc.nasa.gov (Celeste) writes:
>In article <1992Dec15.204918.17518@jupiter.sun.csd.unb.ca>,
>wdickeson@mta.ca wrote:
>> 
>> In article <rsvanc00.724416161@mik.uky.edu>, rsvanc00@nx34.mik.uky.edu (Randolph S. Vance) writes:
>[stuff deleted]
>> >I didn't think that the Scots were PERVERTED, perhaps my viewpoint is 
>> >self-centered, is there anyone out there who thinks that the Scottish 
>> >are PERVERTED?  Personally I think they can hold their own in a fight, and 
>> >are more masculine than most Americans.
>> EXCUSE ME! WHEN DID I EVER SAY THAT THE SCOTS WERE PERVERTS? IN THEIR 
>> DISTINCT CULTURE AND HERITAGE (OF WHICH SOME OF MY ANCESTORS COME FROM!)
>> IT IS THEIR WAY FOR MEN TO WEAR KILTS AND WOMEN TO WEAR PANTS! THAT IS NOT
>> THE WAY IT IS HERE HOWEVER WHERE THE SOCIAL AND MORAL IMPLICATIONS ARE 
>> MUCH MORE DETAILED. IN OUR CULTURE, MEN DON'T WEAR DRESSES WHEN OF SANE 
>> MIND AND PEACE WITH GOD. WE'LL SEE WHOSE MORALS STAND UP TO JUDGEMENT
>> BY GOD (WHICH BY THE WAY, I DO HOPE YOU CAN PASS-SINCERELY-BUT I WOULD 
>> LOOK OVER YOUR MORALS IF YOU HOPE TO DO SO, TOO) GOD WILL LET US KNOW 
>> ABOUT THIS ONE IN THE AFTER-LIFE- 'NUFF SAID
>
>You stated that any man wearing a dress was perverted. That included
>men in Scotland since there was no stated exclusion. Now you add
>a culture as a means of changing what you percive as God's law.
>Are you into "situation ethicts?"
>
>I am glad I am not "here". My culture is else where.
>
>In my culture, men do wear dresses when of sane mind and peace with
>God. We eat, drink, go shopping and worship in a dress. Some of
>us even work in a dress. One of my cross dressing friends is
>very religious and is a minister.
>He showed me much about the acceptance and love of God. He encourged
>me to return to orginized religion and not feel excluded just
>because society and a few miss informed people look down on me.
>
>Culture is a growing and evolving thing. There is a shopping mall
>that accepts us and enjoys our pantroniage. There, cross dressers
>are accepted. There is a culture that we are part of.
>
>Love and hugs,
YOUR DOG..................................................
........................................f#$K IT                                      
4>
>Celeste
From: ah568@yfn.ysu.edu (Melissa Preston)
Newsgroups: alt.transgendered
Subject: Re: CD fantasies
Date: 21 Dec 92 02:16:45 GMT
Reply-To: ah568@yfn.ysu.edu (Melissa Preston)
Organization: St. Elizabeth Hospital, Youngstown, OH


An anonymous person <an860@anon.penet.fi> writes:
> I loved "MY STORY."  While that one was true, it reminds me of the
> kind of fantasies found in the letters column of magazines
> such as Penthouse, Forum, and Variations. I went through a phase
> where I'd expertly browse these magazines for CD fantasies, and
> buy an issue only if there was a really good story.  I wrote a few
> myself and sent them in anonyously: one was published.
> 
> [ Descriptions of "favourites" deleted. ]

Call me intollerant, but the fact that "MY STORY" was very similar to
the kind of fiction you might find in Penthouse was, for me, its least
attractive attribute. The only thing that made worthwile for my reading
was the fact that it claimed to be true.

I really can't say I have a whole lot of interest in the "I was forced
to dress as a woman" kind of story, and see the whole idea of being
forced to dress as a woman as a form of humiliation particularly
distasteful. I can't help feeling that they don't do wonders for peoples
attitudes to transgenderism.

I'll admit that my inability to empathise with this, or with detailed
descriptions of transvestic fetishism stuff, or with detailed descriptions
of anyone's sexual exploits, probably just shows that I'm a prude or
something, but anyway that's the way I tend to feel. I sort of feel that
that kind of stuff really does belong in alt.sex.* hierarchy group, and
not here.

Moaning as always,

    Melissa.
-- 
Okay, so I got it wrong; I guess I was in a hurry.  //  Melissa Preston
						   //  ah568@yfn.ysu.edu
Organization: University of Maine System
Date: Sunday, 20 Dec 1992 01:20:46 EST
From: <WOMENCTR@MAINE.MAINE.EDU>
Newsgroups: alt.transgendered
Subject: Re: Curious

Don, They do it with mirrors.....
Newsgroups: alt.transgendered
From: an857@anon.penet.fi (Sasha)
Subject: jobs
X-Anonymously-To: alt.transgendered
Organization: Anonymous contact service
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 18:53:55 GMT

Hi all,
	This may be a bit off the usual subjects of the group, but
	let's see... 

	I want to start a conpany that does high-end computing and
	other things of that nature. I noticed a group portrayed on
	CNN [all gay] that id advertising for up-scale companies.
	The reason for presenting this is that the work force should
	be able to dress and present themselves as they wish, plus
	provide an atmosphere of fun, sharing and tolerance that is 
	often lacking in real business.

	If anyone is interested, e-mail direct, I don't want to clog
	the efforts of our other sisters.

	Thanks.

	Love,
		Sasha
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From: an1875@anon.penet.fi
Subject: Sorry another test
X-Anonymously-To: alt.transgendered
Organization: Anonymous contact service
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 20:35:54 GMT

X-Anon-To: alt.transgendered

Sorry about this test--just checking about sending to anon@anon.penet.fi with
the "manufactured" header X-Anon-To: 
(or should it have been X-Anonymously-To: as all the postings show?)

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From: w.p.coyne@newcastle.ac.uk
Newsgroups: alt.transgendered
Subject: Re: Wow! stockings!
Date: 18 Dec 92 16:59:44 GMT
Reply-To: w.p.coyne@newcastle.ac.uk
Organization: Chemical & Process Engineering Dept, University of Newcastle, UK.

metzlers@spot.Colorado.EDU (METZLER SANDRA TAIMI) writes:

>i have been following this group for a little while and Really Like what
>i am seeing here--a lot of people with good ideas, sharing them freely,
>not just without censor, but without (much) fear of any sort of 
>recrimination.  it is very cool.

>but i was prompted to write by the recent discussion on stockings.  as a
>biological female, i can't stand the things--pantyhose feel awful; stockings
>ride down my legs and hang out around my knees; garter belts are not
>very comfortable.  i prefer tights--nice warm ones in bright colors.

 I thought pantyhose and tights were different words for the same thing?
 What's the difference

>i wonder if some of this dislike of stockings is because, when i work at
>a place with a dress code, i Have to wear them--they aren't a fun aside, or
>even something akin to dressing 'naturally' for me (although tights and
>skirts often are).

 Do tell, just how do they know whether your wearing them or tights :-)

>taimi
   
  Notice its pants, trousers, briefs, jeans, tights etc but pantyhose.
All other double leg garments seem to be plural while hose is singular,
anyone any idea why?
  It always possible that newspaper adverts for dirt cheap pairs of jeans
etc could be refering to two detached leg :-)
Newsgroups: alt.transgendered