Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Date: Sunday, 16 Aug 1992 05:27:18 CDT
From: <U54778@uicvm.uic.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk
Subject:    I AINT GONNA WORK ON MAGGIES DRAWERS NO MORE

[For those who are musically impaired the subject line is a play on a
title of one of Bob Dylan's songs "I aint gonna work on maggie's farm no
more"]


Here are selections from three sources on the shooting ability of
LHO.  The first comes from LHO's brothers book and shows
generally what Robert's observations and opinions are on the
subject.  It also places in perspective just where Lattimer's
quotes are coming from when he uses Robert to back up his
theories.
The second is from LHO's marine buddies who saw him shoot during
his tenure in the service.  It should be noted that they observed
LHO when he had already gone through basic training and had come
back to the States from being in Japan.  These experiences were
related at the second time LHO was officially tested, not the
first time when LHO had shown some small passable ability in
firing a rifle after being trained to the teeth in basic
training.  I think these testimonies call into question from
which testing period Lattimer is showing off his score book.

The third selection is from NightLine's special segment on the
Oswald/KGB files.  It shows the official and unofficial
observations of LHO's rifle ability.  Forrest Sawyer not only saw
the KGB files but interviewed LHO's friends that he made while in
the USSR.  As a singularity, these findings can be called into
question as Russian propaganda but when matched with all the
other findings show a smooth conformity with all the rest that
belies any quibbling over evidence given by the Russians.

What is consistent through all three selections is the
observation by all parties that LHO exhibited a distinct
awkwardness, a deficiency in coordination that not only prevented
him from being any good with a rifle but also held him back from
such things as learning to drive a car.  Any testimony to
reflexes or arm strength loses its importance when weighed
against this physical disability.

In all the testimony and literature on the subject, as far as I
can survey, you will find no one who had first hand knowledge and
personal acquaintance with LHO who described him as being a good
marksman or even a passable marksman.

As I have stated before in other postings, LHO's poor
marksmanship does not prove that he didn't do it.  One does have
to face the fact that anyone can be put into the same situation
and regardless of their ability with a rifle, they can just close
their eyes and fire away leaving pure luck to let the bullets
find their intended mark.  That there is the slim possibility
that this can be successful cannot be totally ignored.  But in
reality, no one can ignore the question of just how improbable
that situation is.
One improbable factor in an event does not make the
interpretation of that event invalid.  It is when you pile one
improbable factor after another, as I judge this situation, that
you begin to stretch the acceptability of this interpretation
beyond what can be judged acceptable.  They all start to weigh
that interpretation down until we have to reject it as a whole.
The pro-WC posters and authors have in many instances presented
various factors as possible but with a low probability level,
sinking the whole edifice into a well of high unbelievability.
It is a collection of weak possibilities that have to face other
contentions that have stronger probability levels.

************Selection One******************************
From the book "LEE a portrait of Lee Harvey Oswald by his
brother, Robert L. Oswald"

From page 37
"A few years later he(Lee) learned to hunt and shoot when he
followed John and me into the woods."

From page 38
"Lee looked up to both of us and used to tag along after us
everywhere we went, when we'd let him.  Later, when we learned to
shoot, we passed along our knowledge to Lee.  John could always
outshoot me on targets, but I liked to get out in the fields and
hunt.  I could keep up with John in the field, and even do a
little better.  Lee learned from both of us.  He did pretty well
on targets --- just a notch or two below me --- but in the fields
was awkward.

From page 81
"In December(1956), about five weeks after he went into the
Marine Corp. Lee scored 212 on his test, two points about the
minimum requirement for a "sharpshooter" rating (he didn't do as
well two and a half years later, when his score of 191 on another
range just barely qualified him for a "marksman" rating.)

From page 208:
"If Lee did not spend a considerable amount of time practicing
with that rifle in the weeks and months before the assassination,
then I would say the Lee did not fire the shots that killed the
President and wounded the Governor."
(the above is in response to the WC findings that there was no
credible evidence that LHO practiced anywhere with the MC.  In
fact, the WC gave ample evidence to prove that the MC laid unused
rolled up in that blanket in the Paine's garage.)

From page 209:
"It would have taken hours of practice for Lee to become
acquainted with the characteristics of the rifle, its recoil, and
especially the use of the scope.  He had to know, for example,
whether the scope was zeroed in for one hundred yards or one
hundred and fifty yards or two hundred yards.  Unless he knew
that, he could have overshot any target.
I have always felt that the rifle tests made by the Warren
Commission staff were meaningless.  The Commission did not try to
find three or four men whose Marine Corps records indicated about
Lee's level of skill.  Lee's scores in the Marine Corps prove
beyond a doubt that he was never an expert rifleman.  Instead,
the Commission selected three or four of the best riflemen in the
United States, set up conditions that did not duplicate those of
November 22, and then ignored any of the test results that cast
doubt upon Lee's ability to fire the rifle accurately within the
known time limits.
For the tests to have any validity, obviously the Commission
should have begun by choosing three or four riflemen of average-
--or even below average---skill.  The men who were chosen should
not have had any longtime familiarity with telescopic sights,
since never before April, 1963, to my knowledge had Lee used a
telescopic sight.  They should have spent no more time in
practicing with the weapon than the Commission contends Lee
spent.  And, of course, the basic conditions should have been
duplicated exactly.  The shots should have been fired from the
same height, at a target moving at the same speed, under similar
light conditions, and in exactly the same period of time.  I
understand that the Commission's test failed to meet five of
these six rather obvious requirements."

(Robert goes on about testing himself or choosing those to be
tested, trying to match Lee's idiosyncracies as a shooter and it
is here, at the end of this segment that Lattimer gets his quoted
information.  ALAN)

"I have some idea of the speed of Lee's reflexes, both from my
general observation of him while we were growing up and
specifically because of a game we used to play.  Sometimes Lee
and I would walk up to each other and fake an unexpected punch,
to test each other's reactions.  I discovered from this game that
Lee had very rapid reflexes.  He was also much stronger than he
looked.  For a small man, he had unusual strength in his hands,
and his forearms were well developed and powerful."

(Does anyone reading this get the impression that Lattimer is
perhaps taking these comments out of the overall context? ALAN)

************Selection Two**********************************

From HSCA report book 8, starting on page 233, the testimony of
Nelson Delgado who was stationed in same unit as LHO while in
California after LHO came back from Japan:

(Relatively large sections describing the conditions of the
firing range are left in this transcription because the details
are needed to understand the testimony of fakery at the ending
answers.  ALAN)

Delgado:  As I said to the men that interviewed me before, we
          went to the range at one time, and he didn't show no
          particular aspects of being a sharpshooter at all.
Leibeler: He didn't seem to be particularly proficient with the
          rifle; is that correct?
Delgado:  That's right.
......
Leibeler: Did you have to use the rifles to stand inspection?
Delgado:  That's right.
Leibeler: Do you remember whether or not Oswald kept his rifle in
          good shape, clean?
Delgado:  He kept it mediocre.  He always got gigged for his
          rifle.
Leibeler: He did?
Delgado:  Yes; very seldom did he pass an inspection without
          getting gigged for one thing or another.
Leibeler: With respect to his rifle?
Delgado:  With respect to his rifle.  He didn't spend as much
          time as the rest of us did in the armory cleaning it
          up.  He would, when he was told to.  Otherwise, he
          wouldn't come out by himself to clean it.  He was
          basically a man that complained quite frequently.
.........
Leibeler: You were about to tell us,...... about the rifle
          practice that you engaged in.  Would you tell us about
          that in as much detail as you can remember?
Delgado:  We went out to the field, to the rifle range, and
          before we set out we had set up a pot.  High score
          would get this money; second highest, and so forth down
          to about the fifth man that was high.
Leibeler: How many men were there?
Delgado:  Oh, in our company there was about roughly 80 men, 80
          to 100 men, and I would say about 40 of us were in the
          pot.  All low ranking EM's though.  By that I mean
          corporal or below.  None of the sergeants were asked to
          join.  Nine times out of  ten they weren't firing, just
          watching you.  They mostly watched to see who was the
          best firer on the line.
Leibeler: You say there were about 40 men involved in this pot?
Delgado:  Yes.
Leibeler: And you say that Oswald finished fifth from the
          highest?
Delgado:  No; he didn't even place there.  He didn't get no money
          at all.  He barely got his score, which I think was
          about 170, I think it was, just barely sharpshooter.
Leibeler: Sharpshooter is the minimum......
Delgado:  minimum.
Leibeler: Rank?
Delgado:  It's broken down into three categories:
          sharpshooters....no; pardon me, I take that back; it's
          marksman is the lowest, sharpshooters, and experts.
          And then Oswald had a marksman's badge, which was just
          a plain, little thing here which stated "Marksman" on
          it.
Leibeler: And that was the lowest one?
Delgado:  That was the lowest.  Well, that was qualifying; then
          there was nothing, which meant you didn't qualify.
Leibeler: Did you fire with Oswald?
Delgado:  Right; I was in the same line.  By that I mean we were
          on line together, the same time, but not firing at the
          same position, but at the same time, and I remember
          seeing his.  It was a pretty big joke, because he got a
          lot of "Maggie's drawers," you know, a lot of misses,
          but he didn't give a darn.
Leibeler: Missed the target completely?
Delgado:  He just qualified, that's it.  He wasn't as
          enthusiastic as the rest of us.  We all loved----
          liked, you know, going to the range.
Leibeler: My recollection of how the rifle ranges worked is that
          the troops divided up into two different groups, one of
          which operates the targets.
Delgado:  Right.
Leibeler: And the other one fires?
Delgado:  Right.
Leibeler: When you said before that you were in the same line as
          Oswald, you meant that you fired at the same time that
          he did?
Delgado:  Right.  And then all of us went to the pits, our
          particular lines: then we went to the pits, you know.
Leibeler: Oswald worked the pits with you, the same time you did?
Delgado:  Right.  And he was a couple of targets down.  It was
          very comical to see, because he had the other guy
          pulling the target down, you know.  and he will take
          and maybe gum it once in a while or run the disk up;
          but he had the other guy pulling it up and bringing it
          down, you know.  He wasn't hardly going to exert
          himself.
Leibeler: Do you remember approximately how far away Oswald was
          in the line from you when he fired?
Delgado:  Yes, he was just one over from me.
.................
Leibeler: My recollection of the rifle range from the time I was
          in the Army is that sometimes the scores that were
          reported------
Delgado:  Were erroneous.
Leibeler: Were erroneous.  Has that been your experience also?
Delgado:  Oh, yes; if there is not close supervision.
..................
Leibeler: You told the FBI that in your opinion Oswald was not a
          good rifle shot; is that correct?
Delgado:  Yes.
Leibeler: And that he did not show any unusual interest in his
          rifle, and in fact appeared less interested in weapons
          than the average marine?
Delgado:  Yes.
....................
Leibeler: You did not tell the FBI that in your opinion Oswald
          had penciled in his qualifying score, did you? Or did
          you tell them that?
Delgado:  He may have done, you know; but if you got away with it
          you were more than lucky.
Leibeler: Did you talk to the FBI about that possibility?
Delgado:  Yes, I told him he may have, to qualify, because there
          was a lot of "Maggie's drawers" on his side.  Now, he
          may have had some way of knowing who was pulling, that
          is another thing.  You don't know who is out there in
          the pits, pulling it, see; and it could be a buddy of
          yours or somebody you know, and they will help you out,
          you know, get together, like before we all go and
          separate, you know, and I will say to my buddy.  "Well,
          look, I want to try and get on line 22, you get on
          target 22, and I will try to the the first one on
          line"; so help each other like that.  And when they go
          to the pits, they have their choice of getting on the
          lines, you know, as I will try to work it out with the
          fellow out there.  But sometimes it doesn't work out
          that way.  You just have to take your chances.
Leibeler: You told us that in this particular rifle practice, or
          firing, that the scores were kept by NCOs.
Delgado:  Yes.
Leibeler: Was it a common practice for the privates to make deals
          like this with the noncommissioned officers in
          connection with a thing like this?
Delgado:  They are making a deal with the other guys pulling the
          targets.  See, the guy back there is also keeping a
          score.  Now, your NCO, particularly your NCO, may want
          to push you or make you qualify, because he doesn't
          want another day out there on the rifle range, see;  so
          it's not all that strict.  Like if I was line NCO and I
          had five men in my section, and four of them qualified,
          that means that some other day, maybe on my day off, I
          will have to come in with this other fellow, so I will
          help him along and push each other along.
          You don't try to mess nobody up, but you can't take a
          man that is shooting poorly and give him a 190 score,
          see; you could just give him the bare minimum, 170 or
          171, to make it look good.
Leibeler: Just to qualify him?
Delgado:  Just to qualify him.
Leibeler: So it is a possibility that that might have happened
          even in connection with this?
Delgado:  Right.


From Henry Hurt's book "Reasonable Doubt", page 99:

"In fact, judging from Oswald's movements and from the evidence
available, he did not use the Mannlicher-Carcano for a period of
nearly two months prior to the assassination.
The Warren Commission heard testimony from one former Marine,
Nelson Delgado, who stated that Oswald's marksmanship was "a
joke," that he could hardly qualify on the range.  This was not
included in the Warren Report, but Delgado's comments about
Oswald's shooting ability may explain why so few Marines were
interviewed.
In 1977 the author located and interviewed more than fifty of
Oswald's Marine Corps colleagues, who had never been questioned
by officials or journalists. (This was done in connection with
research for Legend by Edward J. Epstein.) On the subject of
Oswald's shooting ability, there was virtually no exception to
Delgado's opinion that it was laughable.
Sherman Cooley, an expert hunter who grew up in rural Louisiana,
knew Oswald well during their Marine Corps service.  Cooley's
comment capsulizes what several dozen Marines had to say about
Oswald's ability as a marksman: "If I had to pick one man in the
whole United States to shoot me, I'd pick Oswald.  I saw that man
shoot, and there's no way he could have ever learned to shoot
well enough to do what they accused him of.  Take me, I'm one of
the best shots around, and I couldn't have done it."
Many of the Marines mentioned that Oswald had a certain lack of
coordination that, they felt, was responsible for the fact that
he had difficulty learning to shoot.  They believed it was the
same deficiency in coordination responsible for his reported
inability to drive a car.

************Selection Three**********************************

From NightLine ---- The Oswald/KBG Files.

From on camera interview with Eduard Tishkevich, Hunting Club
President and LHO co-worker in Minsk:
     "He didn't practice.  Only once he took part in the
     competition of the work shop team.  He shot very badly.  He
     wasn't on target but around it."

From testimony from Forrest Sawyer, who had direct access to the
KGB files, in response to questions from Ted Koppel:

Koppel:   Before we go on lets go back a little bit, Forrest, and
          talk to me about the gun for a moment.  I am intrigued
          that on the one hand that one of his fellow factory
          workers said he was a lousy shot but he also said he
          came out only once.  Can we really conclude anything
          from one such isolated example?

Sawyers:  If it were isolated, we would have some trouble making
          that conclusion but Mr. Tishkevich's comments are not
          alone.  There are other people there who remember him
          as a bad shot and there is the file.  Informants
          writing that he was a bad shot when he went out with
          the factory hunting club and there is a notation that
          when he did try to shoot that it simply didn't work at
          all.  He finally sold that rifle for about $20.

Koppel:   You also told me about the story about LHO going
          hunting with a bunch of russian friends.

Sawyers:  It is a story that goes around that they went out
          looking for rabbits and everybody had to bring back a
          rabbit before they could go home.  Somebody came up
          behind him and took the rabbit out because Oswald
          couldn't hit it.

Koppel:   So there's no evidence then within the context of the
          shooting in the Soviet Union that he was a spectacular
          shot or even an adequate shot for that matter.

Sawyers:  Exactly the contrary and also evidence that he had
          little or no interest in shooting.

ALAN ROGERS

Xref: sparky alt.conspiracy.jfk:3032 alt.conspiracy:10075 sci.skeptic:14511