From: lip@s1.gov (Loren I. Petrich)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc
Subject: Re: VOTE GRITZ: Solutions and Hope
Date: 30 Sep 92 23:10:01 GMT
Organization: LLNL

In article <BERG.92Sep29131215@malice.cass.usu.edu> berg@malice.cass.usu.edu (Glenn Berg) writes:
 I do HOPE, however, that you are trying to live the
>Judeo-Christian ethic--you know, little things like: Thou shalt not kill, Thou
>shalt not steal, Thou shalt not commit adultery (where are you Bill?), Love thy
>neighbor, etc.--since the health of our nation depends on the actions of her
>citizens.

	In case you aren't up on your history and anthropology, a lot
of people who've never heard of the Bible have forbidden murder and
theft. Ever hear of the Code of Hammurabi? That's older than any of
the Bible's "reliable" history. Or of the ancient Greeks and Romans?
Or of host of other people who have had moral codes? Bragging about
forbidding murder and theft makes me yawn.

	I use "murder" instead of "kill" because that is the standard
modern-English translation of that word in the Biblical law.

	Furthermore, there are numerous wars of conquest fought by the
Israelites, which include (according to their own account!) genocide
and plunder, which certainly qualify as murder and theft. I don't see
why they are morally superior to other peoples on that account.

	The only criticism I know of in the Bible of the Israelites'
conduct in this Great Conquest is that of Samuel about King Saul, who
was told that he was to kill his enemies' livestock, not plunder them.

>It is so interesting to me that the people (like the Supreme Court) who like to
>quote Jefferson on the "wall of separation between Church and State" never
>finish the quotation.  In it, he states that the wall, established by the 1st
>Amendment, goes ONE WAY and should keep government out of religion, but NOT
>religion out of government.  For the record, here's the 1st Amendment:

	It would be interesting to find out what TJ really said :-)

	I don't think that he agreed that organized religion was
supposed to be some sort of untouchable sacred cow.

>"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or
>prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or
>of the press; or the right of people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the
>government for a redress of grievances."

>The Founding Fathers endeavored to establish a government based on Christian
>principles, and they believed that this system of government would only succeed
>in a nation of Christians (I believe it was Jefferson who said that too).  I'm
>sorry (or at least I should be :-) ) if this offends you.

	You might want to read the "Jefferson Bible" sometime to see
what kind of "Christian" TJ was. You would probably tear your hair
about how he was nothing but a "Christian rationalist". Reading his
good friend Thomas Paine's _The Age of Reason_ should be interesting.
He has some sharp comments to make about some of the "morality" in the
Bible.

	There is no explicit allegiance to "Christian principles",
whatever those are, in the Constitution. Indeed, the Constitution has
much more in common with Greek, Roman, and Anglo-Saxon political
traditions than with the Bible, which doesn't advocate democracy or
representative government _anywhere_.

>I'll have to start digging up quotes so I can be ready for your next flame :).

	And while you're at it, read some of the flame wars in
talk.religion.misc about whether Mormonism is genuine Christianity, so
you can see what kind of hassles an attempt to establish a state
religion would lead to (you guys want one, don't you?).

/Loren