From: garrett@Ingres.COM (QUOTE OF THE YEAR)
Subject: Re: Better Off Than Four Years Ago NOT
Summary: In perspective 
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.4-b1  
Keywords: 
Organization: ASK Computer Systems, Ingres Product Division
Distribution: usa
Date: 2 Sep 92 22:21:18 GMT

In article <1992Sep2.163746.12625@anasazi.com>, john@anasazi.com                 writes...
>Keywords: 
> 
>In article <1992Sep2.012357.10369@pony.Ingres.COM> garrett@Ingres.COM (QUOTE OF THE YEAR) writes:
>]In article <la81loINNi@spim.mips.com>, mpolen@suntory.mips.com (Michael writes...
>]>In article <1992Sep1.152133.25112@linus.mitre.org>, m23364@mwunix (James Meritt) writes:

>]I'm really tired of hearing how Bush, or even Reagan, is responsible for
>]the downfall of Communism in Russia.
>]	The fact is that America had very little to do with it, and 
>]Reagan/Bush had only a fraction of that. Why doesn't anybody give any credit
>]to the Afghani people who suffered increadibly (and are still suffering)
>]in their fight against Russia (and I mean FIGHT, not just building bombs).
>]What about Solidarnosc in Poland? What about the people of Western Europe,
>]who had to look at barbed wire and gun turrets for 40 years?
> 
>What about the fact that all of those folks (with the possible exception
>of the people of Western Europe, who did virtually nothing)

The NA in NATO stands for North Atlantic, not North American. How much
money and troops did Western Europe contribute to containing the USSR?
I'm not sure of the numbers, but I'm willing to bet it was in the billions.
You also didn't address the story of the Afghani people. It's one thing 
to build bombs and send money, it's a totally different story to put
your life on the line. One takes capital, another takes guts.

 credit
>Ronald Reagan with winning the fight?

The AFL-CIO sent millions to the Solidarity Movement in Poland. How much
did Reagan send?

 How about the fact that Gorbachev
>credit's Reagan's policies with forcing him to introduce the reforms that
>ultimately lead to the collapse of the USSR?

Long before Gorbachev instituted those reforms, there were stories in 
the newspapers of how potatoes were rotting in the fields in the Ukraine
because there wasn't enough boxes and crates to put them in.

 Reagan had three policies that
>had a strong effect:
>  -support of insurgent movements against communist regimes (the Reagan 
>   doctrine)

This goes all the way back to 1919, and it was done dozens, if not hundreds
of times before Reagan ever came to office. If you'll recall, we even
invaded Russia itself, along with the U.K. and several other countries,
in 1919-21 to try to overthrow the Bolsheviks. This doctrine was 
instituted and carried out many times long before Reagan was anything 
more than a B actor. This is not to say that I support the doctrine,
just that I acknowledge it. 

>  -support of an arms buildup - especially SDI

Reagan's arms buildup began under Carter. The arms race itself began
under Truman.

>  -public condemnation of the Soviet system as evil.

You'll recall that this was done many times in the 50's. It was
also done many times before and after that, by everyone from 
politicians down (or up).

>]	If you want to give ANY credit to American presidents, then give
>]it to Kennedy (Cuban missle crises), and Truman (Berlin crises).
> 
>You've got to be kidding about Kennedy. Kennedy is the guy who brought
>us the continued dictatorship of Fidel Castro by reneging on his
>promises to the Cuban resistance during the Bay of Pigs fiasco.

Castro came into power under Eisenhower. Also, the Bay of Pigs fiasco
was not Kennedy's plan. He never promised air support, that's why
he didn't give it.

>By the way, the result of the Cuban missile crises was that the
>Soviets had to remove missiles that they had never activated, while the
>US had to guarantee that we would not interfere with one of the
>hemisphere's biggest butchers - in perpetuity.
> 
Perhaps you should look up the dictatorship records of Pinochet, the
continuing story of the El Salvadorian government, and the 100,000
dead and missing from the government supported military in 
Guatemala. Castro pales by comparison. What do these countries have
in common? They were all actively supported by Reagan. Who is the
real butcher?

>]	Let's get real people. Reagan and Bush just happened to be
>]on the watch when the collapse came.
> 
>Nice try, but the evidence is against you. Go ask a Pole, or a Russian,
>whether they think Reagan's policies didn't have a major factor in the
>collapse of the USSR.

Go ask an Afghani who kicked the Russians out their country. Go ask a 
Lithuanian who kicked the Russains out of their country. Ask any Finlander
how many American's died while fighting Russian's while Helsinki was
bombed. It is arrogant to think that we were responsible for the 
collapse of the USSR.


>John Moore NJ7E, 7525 Clearwater Pkwy, Scottsdale, AZ 85253  (602-951-9326)
>john@anasazi.com ncar!noao!asuvax!anasaz!john anasaz!john@asuvax.eas.asu.edu
> - - Support ALL ...erk  glugh   mmpph.... Memory fault (core dumped)

-Garrett
Xref: sparky talk.politics.misc:43213 sci.econ:7303