HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: eager@eagercon.com (Michael J. Eager)
Subject: Re: And again, "Voting Analysis"
Reply-To: eager@eagercon.com
Organization: Eager Consulting
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 08:54:03 GMT

In article 22910@nntpd.lkg.dec.com, edp@math.zk3.dec.com (Eric Postpischil) writes:
>You can give no answer; there is nothing they did other than not-voting
>that contributed to what the organization learned.  I did not deny that
>the sample from group X is needed, but that is not something done by
>those in group Y.  Millions of people contributed to the information
>learned but did so solely by not-voting.

I find it absolutely amazing that you can conceive of how some unknown number
of people, who did nothing (by your own statement) contributed anything to 
anybody.

---
Michael J. Eager		Michael.Eager@eagercon.com
Eager Consulting		(415) 325-8077 
1960 Park Boulevard, Palo Alto, CA 94306-1141

Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: dobbs@ast.saic.com (Lynn Dobbs)
Subject: Re: Net Access
Organization: SAIC
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 00:53:16 GMT

In article <1eb8h9INNn2t@network.ucsd.edu> rr@chem.ucsd.edu (Roxanne Rohmann) writes:
>In article <1ea8bvINN6k@network.ucsd.edu> jwp@chem.ucsd.edu (John Pierce) writes:
> > jcooley@miracle.com (John Cooley) writes:
> >  > 
> >  > .... I'm constantly reminded by many from my local chapter that something
> >  > like 90% or more DO NOT have access to e-mail or Internet in any way ....
> > 
> > I think that net access is really much less of a problem than people try
> > to make of it.  In less than six months members in San Diego should have free
> > access to normal Internet mail and Usenet news.  We (principally Lynn Dobbs)
>
>Yes, but setting up access is only a small portion of the problem. 
>The fact remains that *most* people simply aren't computerized at
>all, and the majority of them aren't really likely to become so.
>
>While net and e-mail access is going to broaden the horizons of
>a fair number in our local group, this access is going to remain
>the purview of a minority of members.
>
Good! I can't afford extra phone lines! :-)
--Lynn
From: eager@eagercon.com (Michael J. Eager)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: Voting Analysis
Date: 19 Nov 92 18:50:32 GMT
Reply-To: eager@eagercon.com
Organization: Eager Consulting

In article 29369@nntpd.lkg.dec.com, edp@math.zk3.dec.com (Eric Postpischil) writes:
>In article <mike_steiner-161192115857@192.35.50.131>,
>mike_steiner@qm.claris.com (Mike Steiner) writes:
>
>>Yes, the message is sent in the sampling.  Absent the sampling, there is no
>>message.  The point is that not-voting, *in and of itself* does not give
>>any message.  Every example you have given has relied upon another method
>>of communication to send the message.
>
 [ deleted garbled view of how demographic based sampling works ]

>Therefore, not-voting and not-voting
>alone are the sole cause of the organization gaining information about
>the objecting non-voters in group Y.
>
>You can claim that the non-voters in group X did something else to
>communicate, but that is not true of those in group Y, which is a much,
>much larger group than X.  Millions of people contributed to the
>information gained by the organization and they did so solely by not
>voting.

Look closely.  It is neither the people in the sample (your group X) nor
the people not sampled (your group Y) that did anything.  The information
was generated by the sampling organization.  The organization may indeed
have collected and generated a number of different pieces of information,
not limited to the one piece you focus on.  It may be incidental.

Therefore, your statement that "not-voting alone is the sole cause of the
organization gaining information" seems to have confused the cause and 
effect.  The observer is the cause of the information, whatever this may
be.

---
Michael J. Eager		Michael.Eager@eagercon.com
Eager Consulting		(415) 325-8077 
1960 Park Boulevard, Palo Alto, CA 94306-1141
From: mike_steiner@qm.claris.com (Mike Steiner)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: the question is the answer ?!
Date: 16 Nov 92 20:14:06 GMT
Followup-To: rec.org.mensa

In article <1992Nov12.192523.22012@eagercon.com>, eager@eagercon.com
(Michael J. Eager) wrote:
> 
> In article 111192152016@192.35.50.131, mike_steiner@qm.claris.com (Mike Steiner) writes:
> >In article <1992Nov10.154338.8379@nntp.nta.no>, stein@hal.nta.no (Stein
> >Kulseth FBA) wrote:
> >> 
> >> In article <1992Nov10.144701.390@blaze.cs.jhu.edu>, wilson@rhombus.cs.jhu.edu (Dwight Wilson) writes:
> >> |> In article <1992Nov5.213159.10826@sbcs.sunysb.edu> kthiruma@engws3.ic.sunysb.edu () writes:
> >> |> >
> >> |> >a question when repeated becomes its own answer.
> >> |> >
> >> |> 
> >> |> This reminds me of a (probably apocryphal) story I read somewhere
> >> |> long ago.  It seems a professor gave a final exam consisting of
> >> |> a single question.
> >> |> 
> >> |> "Write a question that you feel would be suitable for a 
> >> |> final exam and answer it."
> >> |> 
> >> |> One student thought for a few moments, then wrote the above
> >> |> sentence twice.
> >> |> 
> >> |> -Dwight
> >> 
> >> Well, I hope he flunked, for he obviously did not answer the question.
> >
> >Actually, there weren't any questions to answer. There was a directive to
> >follow, though.  He didn't follow the directive because he didn't ask a
> >question.
> 
> 
> So how about "What question do you feel would be suitable for a
> final exam?  What question do you feel would be suitable for a
> final exam?"
> 
> (No, Ma'am, I'm not stuttering...just my tongue flapping too fast.)

As usual.... <g>

+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Now that I have a reader that can do .sigs, I can't think of a witty |
|one to put here, so I won't.  All normal disclaimers apply.          |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: ecsd@tfs.com (Eric C. S. Dynamic)
Subject: Re: Tai's fake news headers
Organization: TRW Financial Systems
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1992 08:25:16 GMT

jwp@chem.ucsd.edu (John Pierce) writes:
>I've gotten somewhat tired of the fact that "Tai" hides behind a bogus
>news header.  In the ten or twelve years I've been running news, it's
>always been considered exceptionally bad form to allow people at your
>organization to fake news headers.  Since it appears from the headers
>that he's posting via a machine at NCSU, I've asked people there to see
>if they can put an end to the header faking.

I wouldn't worry about it, it may be bad form but Tai is not malicious.
I never got around to having my local hack go after him, and by now it
doesn't mean anything. I guess I'll tease Tai and say that when he's
able to afford his own mailid, or actually gets an official, granted id
to write from, he will.

Meanwhile, Tai's private mail address is: mensa@nyx.cs.du.edu

Let's overlook each other's wild ways, shall we? While no real harm is done.
-ecsd
From: clong@remus.rutgers.edu (Chris Long)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: Keeping Your Mensa Membership A Secret
Date: 23 Nov 92 10:33:12 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

In article <1992Nov20.034139.11789@ttinews.tti.com>, The Polymath writes:

> Once it came up in a graduate seminar when I was in school.  My fellow
> students were very impressed.  I explained that everyone in the room
> qualified for membership (or they wouldn't be there), so I didn't see it
> as anything to brag about in their company.

Based on the fact that they were impressed, I suspect that in fact
they wouldn't qualify since they weren't smart enough to know that
they shouldn't be impressed.

I've never had anyone actually be impressed by my membership in anything,
even though I've recently qualified for Prometheus; must be the people
I hang out with.
-- 
Chris Long, 265 Old York Rd., Bridgewater, NJ  08807-2618
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: skh4161@mvs.draper.com (Kjeld Hvatum)
Subject: Re: IQ Test Creation Question
Organization: Draper Laboratory
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 18:21:00 GMT


>From: larry wink <bbs-phaedrus%jwt.uucp@surname.draper.com>
>Message-ID: <mZicuB1w164w@jwt.UUCP>
>
>Let me be slightly less global and delete the word "only" from my statement.
>While I can not prove this contention, I do draw your attention to a number of
>recent posts to this newsgroup concerning "preparing" for these tests.  If
>these tests are truly measuring intelligence, as opposed to acquired
>knowledge, why should preparation result in higher scores?  I  really can't
>accept that these books and courses will make you more intelligent.  Studying
>for an intelligence test should have no more effect that studying for an eye
>test.

So a test is only a pure intelligence test if it measures something that
cannot be influenced by environment (which includes long term study)?
In other words, is your definition of intelligence only something that
is 100% inherited?

I suppose you're only talking about short-term preparation.  Yes, on the
average, it has a modest effect - not a whole lot more than the standard
error of the test.  As for the SAT coaching companies that claim large
average increases, you have to read their claim carefully.  "Average
increase" means only the average of the increases, i.e., not including
those whose scores decreased.  Very large score increases do sometimes
happen, and they are probably due, in my opinion, to the examinee not
understanding some basic strategy on the earlier test.   In other words,
you could score much lower than you should for any of a number of
reasons.
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: dobbs@ast.saic.com (Lynn Dobbs)
Subject: secret membership -- positive story
Reply-To: dobbs@ast.saic.com
Organization: SAIC
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1992 19:24:10 GMT

For the two weeks prior to the SF AG I was on business travel. I told
my customer that I had spent a great deal of money to attend a
convention in SF and had to fly out no later than that Friday.

The customer, an extremely curious man, bought a Sunday SF paper and
looked up all the conventions in SF for that weekend. The next morning, 
he announced to the assembled group, "We have a genius in our midst!"

Everyone was impressed. Too impressed. My workload has doubled! :-)

While at the AG, I bought a Hells Mensans t-shirt to wear the next time
I saw my customer.

--Lynn
From: ksdavis@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Karleenus Schwartz Davis)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Intelligence & personality
Date: 16 Nov 92 01:25:03 GMT
Article-I.D.: usenet.BxsBxs.Mn8
Followup-To: alt.config
Organization: Indiana University

There's been a newsgroup proposed in the alt.* hierarchy (currently
being discussed in alt.config, the anarchic equivalent to news.groups)
for the discussion of personality typing systems, which I believe is a
bit narrowly defined.  It appears, however, that it's on its way to
being created as alt.personality or some such, because support for
SOME group of this nature is overwhelming.

Several people followed up to the proposal suggesting that the group
include other things like IQ testing as well as personality testing
(mentioning "psychometrics" as the appropriate word to include all
these typing/testing systems), so I added my voice to the fray,
suggesting alt.psychology.psychometrics.  

Would you participate in a group for discussions of personality as
related to intelligence and IQ testing, or, alternatively, would you
like for there to be a group where you can send people who want to
discuss it, or are you quite happy with the way things are here?  If
you do support the name alt.psychology.psychometrics, mention it
loudly and clearly in your followup, because alt.config is a noisy
place. 

(If you do followup to this article, watch the Newsgroups: line --
followups are being sent to alt.config.  Change it if your comments
are more appropriate for rec.org.mensa.)

Excuse the interruption.  ;-)

-sz
From: rad@railnet.nshore.ORG (Rick DeMattia)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: A theory of flames
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 92 22:12:59 EST
Organization: Railnet BBS +1 216 786 0476

mike_steiner@qm.claris.com (Mike Steiner) writes:

> After being on several nets for several years, I have come to the
> conclusion that the flame level on any given newsgroup, forum, echo, or
> whatever you wish to call it, is a constant once the forum matures.
> 
> It doesn't matter whether two people are going at it hammer and tong with
> everyone else not participating, or whether there are more people involved,
> each with a lower flame level than if there were only two people at it.
> 
> Comments anyone?

In my observation you're about right, for those newsgroups (forums
echoes etc.) which are just sociable (or antisocial) and conversational.
I restrict most of my newsgroup browsing to technical areas for
that reason.


--
UUCP: {uunet|backbone}!railnet!rad   rad@railnet.nshore.org
CompuServe: 72517.666@compuserve.COM
From: mike_steiner@qm.claris.com (Mike Steiner)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: Weighted Suffrage
Date: 17 Nov 92 18:48:02 GMT
Followup-To: rec.org.mensa

In article <1ea0gpINNmg7@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>, al037@cleveland.Freenet.Edu
(Dave Polewka) wrote:
> 
> 
> In a previous article, mike_steiner@qm.claris.com (Mike Steiner) says:
> 
> >> What about *you*, Mike?  Do you care whether the government
> >> expands or contracts?
> >
> >Yes, I do care.  I would much rather have a smaller and leaner (but not
> >meaner) government apparatus than we now have.
> >However, if that means discarding the one-person, one-vote principle, it
> >isn't worth it.  As soon as you start applying criteria for weighting
> >people's votes, you open the door even wider to voting abuse.
> 
> Well, if we can get a reduction in government with the
> one-man-one-vote, that'll be fine.  I wouldn't hold my
> breath, though.

I won't either.  If we eliminate the one-person, one-vote system, we can
say "goodbye" to liberty and freedom.

+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Now that I have a reader that can do .sigs, I can't think of a witty |
|one to put here, so I won't.  All normal disclaimers apply.          |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
From: clong@remus.rutgers.edu (Chris Long)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Tough Analogies
Date: 17 Nov 92 09:11:42 GMT
Article-I.D.: remus.Nov.17.04.11.41.1992.2312
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.


1.  host : guest :: cynophobia : ?
2.  mountain : plain :: acrocephalic : ?
3.  lover : believer :: philofelist : ?
-- 
Chris Long, 265 Old York Rd., Bridgewater, NJ  08807-2618
From: sue@miracle.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Tired of Tai
Date: 16 Nov 92 16:39:36 GMT
Article-I.D.: miracle.16Nov92123936
Organization: Miracle Computer Consultants

What's going on here?

I disappeared about 3 or 4 _months_ ago, being tired of all the fluff,
mostly regarding Scott Tai.  Now, I finally pick up this newsgroup
again, and find that you people are still squabbling over him!  Aren't
there more important, or at least more interesting, things to post about?

Somebody Email me in another few months, and let me know if it's quieted
down..

Until then...



- Sue -


P.S. - It isn't that I have anything against Scott Tai, but hasn't this
been going on long enough?
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: sonic@bearpit.cray.com (Curtis Swanson)
Subject: Re: Boycotting the Vote
Reply-To: sonic@bearpit.cray.com (Curtis Swanson)
Organization: Cray Research, Inc.
Date: 16 Nov 92 16:16:30 CST

In article <mike_steiner-121192120143@192.35.50.131>,
mike_steiner@qm.claris.com 
(Mike Steiner) writes:
|>In article <1992Nov11.000940.8619@engage.pko.dec.com>,
|>moroney@ramblr.enet.dec.com wrote:

|>> In article <mike_steiner-101192125731@192.35.50.131>,
mike_steiner@qm.claris.
|>> com (Mike Steiner) writes...
|>> >That is true; [None of the Above] is on the ballot in Nevada.  IMO,
it should
|>> >be on the ballot in every state, for every election. 

|>> Definitely!

|>> But what should the proper procedure be if "None of the Above" wins?
Office
|>> goes vacant?  A new election with all those on the previous ballot[s]
|>> ineligible?  Something else?

|>This has been discussed before (maybe not here, but I think that we had a
|>go-round on it a year ago).  *My* preference would be that the position
|>remains vacant until the next scheduled election (which would not
|>necessarily be at the completion of the ter--at least in the case of
|>Senator; witness the Feinstein election here in CA for an example), and
|>that all vacant seats automatically be counted as "no" votes.  In the case
|>of an executive (e.g., president), all bills presented would automatically
|>be vetoed, and would require an override to pass.

|>Anyway, that's my first cut at it.

Interesting concept.  However, the case of the president (and some other 
positions as well) there would have to be better coverage.  The president
does far more than just sign/veto bills.  Other than that, it would certainly
reduce the growth of government in ways never really dreamt of before......
                            
***  Curt Swanson  ***  sonic@romulus.cray.com  ***  IOTTMCO  *********
Bad opening line #106:
     "Say, you own the 'Buns of steel' video, don't you?"
***  Warning: This signature expires on 30-NOV-92!  *******************
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: wiggins@osiris.cso.uiuc.edu (Don Wiggins)
Subject: Re: Tired of Tai
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 01:31:10 GMT

seghers@hpkslx.mayfield.HP.COM (David Seghers) writes:

>More than long enough.  Seeing the volume which "Tai" produces, he/she/it
>*is* the fluff.  I really think "Tai" is attempting a filibuster in order
>to drive others away from this group.   I'm just amazed at the number
>people who rise to it's BS.  It's just trying to get a rise - ignore it
>and it will haunt another group!

I too have ignored this board for a few weeks and when I came back I
found tai and others still babbling away on the same tired themes.  I
have long shared your suspicion that tai and its opposition are all from
the same nest, and that there may be only a few others who routinely
post here.  Too bad.

 ===========================================================================|
 |                                      | Success is getting what you want. |
 |Don Wiggins                           | Happiness is wanting what you get.|
 |Internet: wiggins@osiris.cso.uiuc.edu |     -- Brother Dave Gardner       |
 ===========================================================================|
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: cjdcosta@eos.ncsu.edu (CHRISTOPHER J DCOSTA)
Subject: Re: Great Beast Re: Tai's newly fake mail address
Originator: cjdcosta@zepplin.ece.ncsu.edu
Reply-To: cjdcosta@eos.ncsu.edu (CHRISTOPHER J DCOSTA)
Organization: North Carolina State University, Project Eos
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1992 01:48:41 GMT


ecsd counsels tai-
>If you're tired of doing sysad-hacking half the time to write mail the other
>half, why not just menschify yourself - you can be every bit as silly and
>cruel sitting still, as moving around. C.J.D'Costa is (now) under orders from
>me not to injure you, should you really turn out to be at NCSU - hell, he
>might even buy you a hoagie and a coke.

Sorry, no chance of that happening- economic constraints of the (soon-to-be)
PoorStarvingStudent :-(
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: gmark@cbnewse.cb.att.com (gilbert.m.stewart)
Subject: Re: Keeping Your Mensa Membership A Secret
Organization: AT&T
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 17:37:43 GMT

In article <16Nov92133624@miracle.com> jcooley@miracle.com (John Cooley) writes:
>
>  I know of quite a few active Mensans who keep their membership
>  in Mensa either a secret from their workplace and/or a secret from
>  most of their social circle (with the exceptions being from some
>  of their close friends).
>
>  Usually it's because they don't want to deal with the "This-must-
>  mean-you're-smarter-than-me-and-I've-got-to-defend-my-ego" reaction
>  one typically gets when they tell non-Mensan friends that they're
>  a member of Mensa and the qualifications to join.
>
>  Anyone have any positive stories concerning telling non-members you're
>  a member?  Also, what are some of the bad reactions you've recieved?

Some people find out and are impressed, but generally people who
worry about crap like that.  Negative reactions have always been
defensive emotional crap rather than logical concerns.  Don't
know why people with logical complaints about it don't seem to
be willing or able to articulate them.  I realize some are 
threatened because they're actually right about not being smart,
but there are many very intelligent people that aren't in any
organizations or clubs, and that we all know of some difficulties
in the whole testing racket, but there doesn't seem to be much
vocalization of that.  My theory is that stupid people often don't
see or understand much except how they feel at the moment, and
smart people either can't be bothered or are basically nicer.

My favorite reaction was one I once posted.  A co-worker at
the axle plant I worked at said she wouldn't want to be a
genius because she knew a genius once who committed suicide.
I suppressed my laughter, luckily, and said, "Case closed.
I'm going for that lobotomy tomorrow."  Stupid people can be
pretty entertaining, you've got to give them that.

GMS
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: gmark@cbnewse.cb.att.com (gilbert.m.stewart)
Subject: Re: Grad Students
Organization: AT&T
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 16:37:41 GMT

In article <BxxwEp.BCG@news.cso.uiuc.edu> wiggins@osiris.cso.uiuc.edu (Don Wiggins) writes:
>Is it me, or does there seem to be an unhealthy level of interest on this
>board about grad students killing their professors??
>

Oh!?!?  And what is THAT supposed to mean!?!?!?  And do YOU work at
a UNIVERSITY!?!???  HUH!???!??!?

GM("Still Somewhat Tense, But Much Better Now")S
From: yaros@sab57.larc.nasa.gov (Steve Yaros)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: "Family Circle" Scheduling Program
Date: 18 Nov 1992 18:35:08 GMT
Organization: NASA Langley Research Center, Hampton, VA  USA
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: sab57.larc.nasa.gov

Don't forget the little ghost with the name "not me" (or something like
that)...he should appear every month or so.

-- 
                           |                                                   
    Steve from Norfolk     | ...be aware that a walk through the river of most           
 yaros@sab57.nasa.larc.gov | people's souls would scarcely get your feet wet...
      804-864-3050         |                                  Deteriorata 1977
___________________________|____________________________________________________
From: mike_steiner@qm.claris.com (Mike Steiner)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: hello
Date: 17 Nov 92 19:25:44 GMT
Followup-To: rec.org.mensa

In article <1992Nov16.164621.6522@walter.cray.com>, sonic@bearpit.cray.com
(Curtis Swanson) wrote:
> 
> In article <corey.0fb6@amiganet.chi.il.us>, corey@amiganet.chi.il.us 
> (Corey Sweeney) writes:

> |>I do not own a amiga!
>       
> Neither do I.

Nor do I.

+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Now that I have a reader that can do .sigs, I can't think of a witty |
|one to put here, so I won't.  All normal disclaimers apply.          |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: skh4161@mvs.draper.com (Kjeld Hvatum)
Subject: Re: _Vidya_
Organization: Draper Laboratory
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 18:29:00 GMT


>From: Chris Long <clong@remus.rutgers.edu>
>Message-ID: <Nov.15.03.28.59.1992.17956@remus.rutgers.edu>

>The last issue of _Vidya_ I received was 122/123 (May/June).  Is
>the publishing of it that irregular, or is it just me?

All I know is it's behind schedule.
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: skh4161@mvs.draper.com (Kjeld Hvatum)
Subject: IQ cartoon
Organization: Draper Laboratory
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 17:45:00 GMT


From a recent issue of FairTest EXAMINER - guidance counselor says
to student:  "We realize you do better on your IQ tests than you do
in anything else, but you just cannot major in IQ."