HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: SHONTZ%ATHENA.DECNET@UTHSCSA1.BITNET
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.circplus
Subject: Portable people counters
Date: 20 Aug 92 14:21:44 GMT
              <CIRCPLUS@IDBSU.BITNET>
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MIME-version: 1.0
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

We are looking at methods of counting traffic in areas of the Library other than
   the entrance and exit gates.  Has anyone had any experience with a portable
people counter?

David Shontz
UTHSCSA
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.circplus
Date:         Sat, 22 Aug 1992 11:04:27 EDT
              <CIRCPLUS@IDBSU.BITNET>
From:         Mary Kay <R1MKB@AKRONVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Opening the Library
              20 Aug 1992 09:19:28 -0500 from <SHONTZ%ATHENA.DECNET@UTHSCSA1>

At the University of Akron Law Library, I come in one half hour before the
library opens to perform the "opening routine". We barely get done with it and
 it's time to open the library. The patrons "swarm" in and expect to be waited
on and helped. (and rightfully so) The phone rings...I think it would be very
difficult, if not frustrating to try this with patrons coming in...Most of them
(in our library) are coming in to photocopy and having to wait 4-5 minutes for
the machine to warm up will not set well with them. Hopeully you will have some
student assistants to help you with this.....Good luck...by the way...is this
a way of "saving money"???? Just curious....

Mary Kay Ball/ U of Akron Law Library
Akron, Ohio 44325
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.circplus
Date:         Wed, 19 Aug 1992 10:02:35 EDT
              <CIRCPLUS@IDBSU.BITNET>
From:         RLSHUCK@COLOSPGS.BITNET
Subject:      Moving of shelving to recarpet library

We at the University of Colorado at Colorado Springs library are planning
to recarpet the library.  We have been reading about the dollies that are
used to move the stacks without removing the materials from them.  We need
to know who else might have done such a project like this and where we might
get more information about the dollies/trucks.  Thanks for you help in
advance.
Bob Shuck
Library Technician
Head of Circulation
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.circplus
Date:         Mon, 17 Aug 1992 09:04:50 CST
              <CIRCPLUS@IDBSU.BITNET>
From:         Sarah Bryan <SARAHB@VM1.UCA.EDU>
Subject:      Fully automated libraries to visit
X-To:         Multiple recipients of list advan-l
              <advan-l%idbsu@uafsysb.uark.edu>,
              Multiple recipients of list carl-l
              <carl-l%uhccvm@uafsysb.uark.edu>,
              Multiple recipients of list circplus
              <circplus%idbsu@uafsysb.uark.edu>,
              Multiple recipients of list innopac
              <innopac%maine@uafsysb.uark.edu>

We have CLSI public catalog, circulation and technical services mode in
our library and are seeking libraries to visit which are fully automated
including acquisitions, order records, serial check in, circulation,
technical services mode and public catalog access.  We are at a point where
we critically need to upgrade and want to make a thorough investigation
before we decide what step to take next.  We would like to know of any
libraries in Missouri, Tennessee, Louisiana, Texas, Oklahoma, or Arkansas that
are fully automated with CLSI, DRA, DYNIX or VTLS and if these libraries would
welcome a visit from our Technical Services Librarians.  We are having trouble
locating libraries in this region (driving distance) with these systems, so if
there are any libraries with other systems that are fully automated, please
respond.  Thank you very much! Oh- I need to mention that we are looking for a
library of comparable size, ie. 500,000 volumes and may be a public library if
it's mission includes providing some scholarly research.
Sarah Bryan
Head Cataloging Librarian
Torreyson Library
University of Central Arkansas, Conway, AR  72035
sarahb@vm1.uca.edu on the Internet
(501) 450-5221 or 450-5248
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XGW-Version: IMail SMTP Gateway v1.54 1/16/92
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.circplus
Date:         Mon, 17 Aug 1992 08:40:00 MDT
              <CIRCPLUS@IDBSU.BITNET>
From:         "Catherine Weller" <WELLER@ADMN1.LAW.UTAH.EDU>
Subject:      "Green" Libraries
X-To:         circplus@IDBSU.IDBSU.EDU

Are there any libraries that have implemented a "green" library
program?

I am interested in learning how other institutions have
addressed environmental issues.  I'd especially like to hear from
libraries that have a comprehensive conservation plan, from
recycling to buying recycled, public education, paper use reduction,
carpooling, etc.  If you don't have a comprehensive plan, what do
you do and how do you do it?  What helps and hindrances have you
encountered?  What role, if any, does your Circulation department
play in this green biz?

This research is for a potential state library association program
so any information will be helpful.  Reply to me directly or to
the list, as you prefer.  I will summarize for the list if there
is any interest.  Thanks in advance.

Catherine G. Weller
Circulation
University of Utah Law Library
WELLER@EDU-UTAH-LAW-ADMN1
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.circplus
Date:         Mon, 17 Aug 1992 00:07:31 CDT
              <CIRCPLUS@IDBSU.BITNET>
From:         kendall <KSIMMONS%UKANVM.bitnet@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Paraprofessional Educational Requirements
X-To:         "CIRCPLUS@IDBSU - LIBRARY CIRCULATION ISSUES"
              <CIRCPLUS%IDBSU.bitnet@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
              12 Aug 1992 09:17:40 EDT from <sowens@MAGNUS.ACS.OHIO-STATE.EDU>

No, Sheryl, it didn't... and I've been waiting.  When we talk snail-mail,
we're REALLY talking snails.

Sorry, everyone else, but Sheryl and I have been having trouble getting
through via e-mail without using Circplus.  Of course, I do remember a
time in the recent past when NOONE seemed to be able to get through to
her, but they really wanted stuff from her...so it's my turn now!!!

Kendall
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.circplus
Date:         Fri, 14 Aug 1992 11:26:00 PT
              <CIRCPLUS@IDBSU.BITNET>
From:         Craig_Haynes%UCSDLIBRARY.UCSD.EDU@SDSC.BITNET
Subject:      Access Services for Remote Users

          Does your library provide remote access to your online
          system (databases) or CD-Rom worksatation(s) ?  If so, what
          'follow-up' public services do you provide ?

          Questions:

          1. Do you allow online check-outs ? How does it operate ?

          2. Do you provide online holds and/or renewals of
          circulating materials ?

          3. Is it possible for remote users to not only request
          journal articles or books online, but have the materials
          delivered to a specified location on or off-campus ?
          Explain.

          4. Is online Reference assistance available  ?

          5. How do remote users receive help and instruction ?

          Please detail any other routine or unique public services
          your library offers to remote users and send your responses
          to:

          [Deadline: September 30, 1992]

          Craig Haynes
          UCSD Biomedical Library 0175-b
          9500 Gilman Drive
          La Jolla, CA 92093
          chaynes@ucsd.edu
          fax: 619-534-1202

          Thank you for your cooperation and participation.
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.csg-l
Date:         Wed, 19 Aug 1992 07:16:56 EDT
From:         "Bruce E. Nevin" <bnevin@CCB.BBN.COM>
Subject:      non-repro blues
X-To:         csg-l%vmd.cso.uiuc.edu@bbn.com

(Gary Cziko 920818.1453) --

>to be consistent you should also be leaving messages for yourself on your
>answering machine

We could have a lot of fun with the comparison between CSG-L and and
answering machine, but I'll refrain.  The analogy is a poor one.

I can identify two pertinent aims:

     1. I want a copy of messages I send to CSG-L.  I want to be able to
       	go back and reconstruct the context if someone responds in part.
	This is what is disanalogous to a message on an answering machine.
	It is analogous instead to keeping a copy of a letter.

     2. I want verification that my message was delivered.  Experience
        recommends it.  This is analogous to sending registered mail.

I can satisfy (1) by sending myself a cc of each message.

I can satisfy (2) to a degree by some other command (I'll have to look
it up so I can turn it off now) that makes the listserver send me a
notice of distribution.

However, seeing a report of its action is much less convincing than
seeing the results of its action in my mailbox file--much easier to
believe that the same results appear in everybody else's mail handler.
And the repro command combines 1 and 2 with the setting of one variable.

I'm not trying to persuade anyone else to use repro.  Some of us asked
how to do this and it seemed we couldn't.  Some of us I guess see
neither use nor sense in it.  But heavens, let's describe it accurately!

Too much time as a tech writer, I guess :-)

	Bruce
	bn@bbn.com
From: mmt@BEN.DCIEM.DND.CA
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.csg-l
Subject: Re: Misc catching up
Date: 20 Aug 92 00:19:28 GMT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU

[Martin Taylor 920819 2010]
(Avery Andrews 920820.0945) A quick response, indeed!

I imagine Rick will respond to this, but in case not:

> At a very minimum, PCT depends on there being consistent
>correlations between the direction of gross effort and the direction of
>change of net result, & a continuous function relating the magnitudes of
>these two quantities.

Only at a very high level, if there.  A hierarchic control structure can
accommodate a world the reverses the direction of effect of actions.  A
reorganizing system can learn to do it more efficiently if the reversal is
maintained, but a fixed system can be developed that can invert the
sign of its output if the error is increasing.  Bill posted a note a
little while ago showing how a 2-way ECS made from a pair of one-way ECSs
could be provided with a signal that affected its gain.  The same principle
could be used in building a reverser control, I think.  Anyway, humans have
no problem with such reversals, as Rick (with Bill? I forget) showed.

I think that consistency is probably required over a time commensurate with
the inverse bandwidth of the feedback loop concerned, but that's only
hazarding a guess.  There is no requirement for a continuous function,
either.  But I think there probably is a requirement for some measure of
closeness between percept and reference.

Analysis is simpler when the relations are continuous and consistent, and
we usually talk about that kind of system.
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.csg-l
Date:         Thu, 13 Aug 1992 10:31:00 -0500
From:         "Gary A. Cziko" <g-cziko@UIUC.EDU>
Subject:      Keijzer Intro
X-To:         Control Systems Group Network CSGnet <csg-l@vmd.cso.uiuc.edu>

[from Gary Cziko 920813.1028]

Here is an introduction from a new CSGnetter whom I just put on the
network.--Gary

P.S.  Bill Powers: Why don't you say hello to Fred and share a few words on
how PCT is similar and different from Manturana and autopoeisis (I can
never spell that right).--Gary
==============================================================

>To: 	Gary Cziko
>
>From: 	Fred Keijzer,
>	Institute of Experimental and Theoretical Psychology,
>	Postbus 9555,  2300 RB  Leiden, Netherlands.
>	e-mail: KEIJZER@RULFSW.LEIDENUNIV.NL
>
>Recently I discovered the work of W.T. Powers, and I would be very interested
>to learn more about this 'Perceptual Control Theory'. Greg Williams mentioned
>CSGnet as the proper place to be for this purpose, and so I request
>subscription to this mailinglist.
>
>As an introduction:
>
>I'm a theoretical psychologist, working in cognitive science on the problem of
>fitting the concept of representation into a natural science context. The
>'reference signal' of control theory seems to offer possibilities in this
>direction. I am also interested in any connections between control theory and
>the work of Humberto Maturana, whose ideas are in many ways similar to those of
>Powers.
>
>Groeten,
>
>Fred Keijzer.
>
>
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Fake-Sender: sibun@parc.xerox.com
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.csg-l
Date:         Mon, 17 Aug 1992 16:35:54 PDT
From:         Penni Sibun <sibun@PARC.XEROX.COM>
Subject:      Re: separating action and perception
X-To:         CSG-L%UIUCVMD.BITNET@pucc.princeton.edu
              17 Aug 1992 11:40:24 -0700
              <92Aug17.114920pdt.11583@alpha.xerox.com>

(penni sibun 920817)

   [From Bill Powers (920817.1130)]


   The point I was making to Penni Sibun concerned the relationship between
   the driver's actions (applying torques to the steering wheel) and the
   perceptions that are controlled as a result (the observed position of the
   car on the road, as the driver sees it). In some of the materials Penni
   cited, the statement appears that action and perception are inseparable.
   But when there are independent variables in the environment which have just
   as much influence on the outcome as the actions do, it is the outcome that
   remains the same, while the actions vary to oppose the effects of those
   independent variables. So the perception (of the car's position) remains
   essentially stable, but the actions (torques applied to the steering wheel)
   vary as the independent variables in the environment vary.

perhaps you're eliding something here, but you seem to be saying:
there's a picture (or encoding thereof) in the head of how the
road/hood is supposed to look.  perception is the driver getting an
unambiguous (and undecomposable?) signal through his eyes, without his
having to do any work to get it.  there's just tons of literature on
perception that suggest that perc. is a *lot* of work; in fact it
involves action--perhaps to the degree that p. and a. are inseparable.
(``active vision'' is a current buzzphrase.)  if i'm driving into the
sun, i'll have to squint to see anything.  if it's sleeting, i'll have
to peer around the bouncing balls of ice and the flailing wipers.  at
*any* time, my eyes are having to track the road, since the car is
constantly bouncing me around.  i don't in fact ``see'' everything in
front of me the same way; my attention is focused.

it also seems that you assume a one-step comparison process bet. the
perception and the reference, but you don't explain how it might work.

cheers.

				--penni
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Posted-Date: Mon, 17 Aug 92 18:23:35 PDT
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.csg-l
Date:         Mon, 17 Aug 1992 18:23:35 PDT
From:         marken@AERO.ORG
Subject:      PCT vs cognitivism

[From Rick Marken (920817.2000)]

I'll try to finish this fast so that I can watch the fascist fandango
in Houston -- featuring my favorite actor (really!).

Actually, all I really want to do is straighten out an unfortunate
misunderstanding (yes, folks, for a change I have better things to
do than post to the net). What I want to straighten out is this:

I said:

>   Sounds fine; but it turns out to be wrong -- a common problem when
>   trying to understand the world with words instead of models.

and penni said:

>do you think you could cut down on the _ad hominem_ rhetoric?

I want to sincerely apologize if this seemed like a personal attack.
I did not mean you (penni) personally. I was thinking of theorists
(and there are loads of them) who come to conclusions about how things
work by "thinking them through" in words, rather than by building
working models. This has been a particular problem when it comes to
understanding the behavior of closed loop systems (witness the TOTE
unit of recent discussion).

I'm glad that you are participating in this conversation; again I
apologize if I offended you.

Believe it or not I don't like ad hominem arguments. I did make fun
of Turvey -- but that is because he took a rather harsh pot-shot
at Powers (in his article) and has never been open to discuss it.
I consider that kind of thing crappy -- so I said some mean things
about him, but even then, I did it with some reluctance.

CSG net is for discussion and solving problems. Some of the
discussions get pretty heated, but I think we have avoided ad
hominum attacks pretty well. The reason, I think, is because our best
arguments are ultimately solved by demonstration -- showing how an idea
works as a working model or experimental demonstration.

Anyway, please accept my apologies for the apparent ad hominum.
I don't agree with your position, but I am trying to understand
it and to present mine as best I can (within the limits of the
medium). Although I think you are wrong, I assume that you are
well intentioned. So enjoy the conversation but remember, I can't
help thinking that I'm right any more than you can help thinking
that you are. We'll both probably be disappointed when we meet
Ms. Truth up there.

Best regards

Rick

     **************************************************************

Richard S. Marken                   USMail: 10459 Holman Ave
The Aerospace Corporation                   Los Angeles, CA 90024
E-mail: marken@aero.org
(310) 336-6214 (day)
(310) 474-0313 (evening)
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.csg-l
Date:         Wed, 19 Aug 1992 08:13:54 EDT
From:         "Bruce E. Nevin" <bnevin@CCB.BBN.COM>
Subject:      FYI: refs on machine vision
X-To:         csg-l%vmd.cso.uiuc.edu@bbn.com

[From: Bruce Nevin (Wed 920819 08:12:45)]

-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-

To: machine-learning@BBN.COM, neural-people@BBN.COM
Subject: Some interesting vision references ("Why Progress in Machine Vision Is
 So Slow)
From: aboulang@BBN.COM
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 92 11:38:01 EDT

From: defee@tukkasotka.tut.fi (Irek Defee)
Newsgroups: sci.image.processing
Subject: Re: Canny Edge Detector
Date: 8 Aug 92 06:54:58 GMT

In article <1992Aug7.132410.29816@bert.eecs.uic.edu> eddins@bert.eecs.uic.edu
(Dr. Steven L. Eddins) writes:
>>The interested hobbyists experimenting with the CAnny edge detector
>>should take a look at the recent papers by Margaret Fleck BEFORE
>>starting to experiment. Just scan IEEE PAMI, I don't have a copy here.
>>Hans
>The references are:
>M. M. Fleck, "Some Defects in Finite-Difference Edge Finders," IEEE
>Transactions on Pattern Analysis and Machine Intelligence, vol. 14, n.
>3, March 1992, pp. 337-345.
>M. M. Fleck, "Multiple Widths Yield Reliable Finite Differences," IEEE
>Transactions on Pattern Analysis and Machine Intelligence, vol. 14, n.
>4, April 1992, pp. 412-429.

Very good reading, indeed. Then, add to the Marr-Hildreth and Canny optimal
edge detectors;

J. Shen, S. Castan, "An Optimal Linear Operator for Step Edge Detection,"
CVGIP: Graphics Models and Image Processing, vol. 54, No. 2, March
1992, pp. 112-133.

But, for God's sake, before developing any new (optimal or not) edge
detectors, read please:

R. C. Jain, T. O. Binford, "Ignorance, Myopia and Naivete in Computer
Vision Systems," CVGIP: Image Understanding, vol. 53, No. 1, Jan.
1991, pp. 112-117, 1991.

T. Pavlidis, "Why Progress in Machine Vision Is So Slow," Pattern
Recognition Letters vol. 13, April 1992, pp. 221-225.

Irek Defee
Signal Processing Laboratory,
Tampere University of Technology,
Tampere, Finland, Europe.

-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-
X-Delivery-Notice:  SMTP MAIL FROM does not correspond to sender.
Fake-Sender: sibun@parc.xerox.com
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.csg-l
Date:         Sat, 22 Aug 1992 14:04:07 PDT
Reply-To:     sibun@parc.xerox.com
From:         Penni Sibun <sibun@PARC.XEROX.COM>
Subject:      Re: agre, facism
X-To:         CSG-L%UIUCVMD.BITNET@pucc.princeton.edu
              21 Aug 1992 21:09:45 -0700
              <92Aug21.215910pdt.12052@alpha.xerox.com>

(penni sibun 920822)

   I get the impression that there is some book or article by
   Agre from which I can learn the principles of interactionism.
   Could you tell me what that is? I'll be at ucla tommorrow
   so maybe I can take a look at it.

the only published book is

david chapman, _vision, instruction, and action_, mitp, 1991.

it's about sonja.  doesn't go into a lot of the philosophy, but if you
spent .5hr w/ it, you could get some of the back ground.

agre's thesis and the pengi papers are what i recommend.  avery posted
how to get the former.

i really recommend preston's paper.  it starts at exactly the same
place as yr blind men paper, adn draws a v. diff conclusion.

   It just struck me that the three views of behavior described in
   my paper probably don't include the interactionist view. It
   might be hard to represent that view in my scheme since it
   seems that interactionists make no distinction between organism and
   environment -- thus eliminating both equations 1 and 2. That would

there is no interactionist manifesto, or even well-defined canon.
(there's pockets of interactionist work in phil, psych, anthro, ling,
ai....)  i'll also remind you that i've presented the most radical
view of interactionism possible.  a risky pedagogical move--though if,
after having thoroughly jumped down my throat, you go off to
investigate on your own....

cheers.

				--penni
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Posted-Date: Sat, 22 Aug 92 14:20:27 PDT
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.csg-l
Date:         Sat, 22 Aug 1992 14:20:27 PDT
From:         marken@AERO.ORG
Subject:      Preston reference?

[From Rick Marken (920822.1400)]

penni --

I'd love to see the Preston paper -- especially if it's related
to the thesis of the Blind men paper. Do you have a detailed
reference? Also, I couldn't find Chapman's book at ucla so
it looks like I'll have to get all these references (including
Agre's thesis) through the library at work. But I'm really
interested in Preston. Who is he/she. Where's the paper/book?

Thanks

Rick

     **************************************************************

Richard S. Marken                   USMail: 10459 Holman Ave
The Aerospace Corporation                   Los Angeles, CA 90024
E-mail: marken@aero.org
(310) 336-6214 (day)
(310) 474-0313 (evening)
From: g-cziko@UIUC.EDU (Gary A. Cziko)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.csg-l
Subject: bit.listserv.csg-l
Date: 20 Aug 92 03:25:24 GMT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-To:         "Control Systems Group Network (CSGnet)" <CSG-L@vmd.cso.uiuc.edu>

[from Gary Cziko 920819.2155]

Martin Taylor 920818 18:30 said:

>(I don't know the usenet name for the
>extension of CSG-L).

I apologize for being delinquent in my planned monthly informational posts
to CSGnet which would include the Usenet (NetNews) name for CSGnet.

Our newsgroup name is bit.listserv.csg-l.  This may not be available on all
systems which include the sci. groups, but in theory can be added to any
Usenet node.  For CSGnetters with access to Usenet (NetNews), this may be a
more convenient means of interacting with CSGnet (it is more convenient
from my perspective since I don't get returned mail from bad
addresses).--Gary


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Educational Psychology           FAX: (217) 333-5847
University of Illinois           E-mail: g-cziko@uiuc.edu
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