HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: lgold@callahans.Cadence.COM (Lynn Gold)
Subject: Desktop Publishing
Organization: /mnt4/lgold/.organization
Distribution: misc
Date: Sat, 8 Aug 1992 02:27:52 GMT

To Kyle, who wanted a place to discuss using PageMaker:

There's a newsgroup called "comp.text.desktop" that might suit your needs.

--Lynn
--
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Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: cgates@mitre.org (Curt Gates)
Subject: What is desktop publishing doing to your salary in tech pubs?
Organization: The MITRE Corporation
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 18:41:04 GMT

At one time, a writer/editor in a tech pubs department spent a relatively 
large part of their time researching, analyzing, organizing, and writing 
information.  Composition and formatting were done by others, who 
specialized in that part of the documentation process.  In general, 
writing and editing skills were rewarded with higher salaries than 
composition and formatting skills.  With the arrival of desktop publishing 
tools, writers and editors inevitably seem to be doing more routine 
composition work, and less of the more demanding research and analysis.  

What does this trend seem to be doing to salaries, or at least to the 
perceived value of a writer/editor?  In one respect, the extra skill 
implies an added value.  But, does the larger percentage of routine work 
lead a company to justify a lower pay scale?  Anybody seen anything that 
might indicate a trend?
From: exujbl@exu.ericsson.se (Jerry Blackerby 214-907-7810)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: "Wow! You're a writer?"
Date: 12 Aug 92 18:26:29 GMT
Reply-To: exujbl@exu.ericsson.se
Organization: Ericsson Network Systems, Inc.

In article 341@unx.sas.com, saslpo@stevens.unx.sas.com (Len Olszewski) writes:
>Gee, I hope not. Speaking as someone who writes *primarily* for the 
>money, I would feel hurt if people thought what I did was evil. It's 
>not, but sometimes my syntax gets out of hand a little. 8*) 
>
>On the other hand, when I tell people I'm a writer, and elaborate by 
>explaining that I write manuals for computer software, nobody ever tells 
>me they liked what I've written. In fact, very few people have ever read 
>what I've written, and they still get mad at *me* for bad computer 
>manuals that OTHER people have written. Many of them begin to berate me, 
>though I never let that go very far before responding in my own defense.
>
>Any other technical writers out there suffer through THAT scenario 
>before?

After 35 plus years of technical writing, I know exactly what you are seeing.
For years, nobody knew what technical writing was.  I had to explain and
they still did not know.

Today, the primary experience most people have with technical writing is the
computer manuals they have seen.  Most of the computer manuals delivered
with new computer systems are not very good.  The novice cannot understand how
to get started using the book.  Someone has to teach them.

Most major software packages either have better manuals or third-party manuals
are available.  Very few computer system third-party manuals are available.
That is why the bad taste in so many peoples mouths.

Sounds like a new possible market.
==========================================================================
|| Jerry Blackerby 214-907-7810 (w) ||    Practice random kindness and  ||
|| exujbl@exu.ericsson.se           ||    senseless acts of beauty.     ||
==========================================================================
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: james@brock.b17b.ingr.com (James Brock)
Subject: test
Followup-To: misc.writing
Keywords: test
Reply-To: James A. Brock, Jr.
Organization: Gesellschaft Praxis
Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1992 18:17:33 GMT

but a test..........
From: miuvdd@lure.latrobe.edu.au
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: "Wow! You're a writer?"
Date: 12 Aug 92 22:40:03 GMT
Organization: VAX Cluster, Computer Centre, La Trobe University

In article <57680018@hpscit.sc.hp.com>, fish@hpscit.sc.hp.com (John Fisher) writes:
> 
> The discussion about calling oneself a writer has sent my small, though
> nimble, mind on a tangent...  Do others encounter this attitude, or is it 
> simply my incredible charm? It sounds from your posts as though you do.  
> Any thoughts on the subject?

A lot of non-writers do seem to think that writing is both easy and a
quick way to make money. [If only it were so! :) ]  I've had a few mixed
reactions to the statement "I am a writer".  People seemed to be either
quite impressed, and immediately want to know what i've had published.
Or at the other end of the scale, seem to think that I have a cushy
life.

However what I find interesting among a few writer friends, is the 
reluctance to reveal what it is that they actually write.  While I
write crime/horror/thriller, I started out writing murdery & mystery
drama games.  [Which considering the publication of a book on the subject, 
has been quite successful).  But all too often I'm told that while what I 
do is all very good, when am I going to do some "serious writing"? 
[Grrrrrrrrrrr...]  I take my writing quite seriously, no matter what it 
is that I am working on at the time. It seems whatever the case, 
a writer's lot is not a happy one! :)

Morgana 
*****************************************************************************
Reality is for people who can't handle decent fiction...
*****************************************************************************                                    
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: cgates@mitre.org (Curt Gates)
Subject: Re: Newsletter Editors
Organization: The MITRE Corporation
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 17:02:09 GMT

In article <1992Aug12.142718.9019@infonode.ingr.com> 
jwaters@uafsysb.uark.edu (James Waters) writes:
> I'm curious to know what
> type of publishing schedule other newletter editors use.
The schedule, and the newsletters ultimate place on a list of priorities, 
usually depends on how much time-sensitive information you announce.  If 
the newsletter is the principal way to tell readers about an upcoming 
seminar, or new operating system implementation, you damm well know when 
the mailing date must be.
>  What are some of the issues in computing that you write about?
For a good newsletter, you have to respond to customer (reader) (user) 
needs and furnish *useful* information. I mean, know your users by name. 
Talk to them. Listen to their complaints. Pay attention to their level of 
technnical knowledge. Then speak to them on the pages. Otherwise, the 
newsletter will join the rest of their junk mail in the recycle bins. (You 
are in the junk mail business, you realize.) But if you have truly useful 
info, people will save copies for years. That is a real reward in this 
business, to see somebody using an article you wrote and published more than a year ago.
>  What kind of creative touches do you add to your newsletter?
Creativity is second to clear communication. Never try to be creative for 
its own sake. Usually, creativity is used in ways the reader is never 
aware of, like good photos. *No clip art* No cute headings just to be cute.
>  Do you publish on-line as well?
Not yet, but that seems to be inevitable.

The organizational structure you are in has a lot to do with what can be 
done.  If you are a one person show: writer, designer, photographer, 
illustrator, proofreader, etc., and you have good rapport with your 
manager, you can do good work easily. Same is true if you have a team, and 
the members share the same philosophy toward customers. But many editors 
end up working for a manager with a technical background who thinks she/he 
has all the answers to everything thanks to an engineering degree. That is 
a common source of frustration for all editors and writers.



  

************************************
I worked as a technical writer ... editing manuals ... on how to dispose 
of sewage in permafrost; we all had to wear white shirts -- that was 
mandatory -- and I was fired at the end of two weeks for spending too much 
time staring out the window.  
(Edward Abbey)
************************************ 
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: James Waters <jwaters@uafsysb.uark.edu>
Subject: Newsletter Editors
X-Xxdate: Wed, 12 Aug 92 15:32:24 GMT
Organization: University of Arkansas - Fayetteville
X-Useragent: Nuntius v1.1.1d7
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 14:30:32 GMT

Hello,

Are there any newletter editors, copy editors, layout design editors
reading this group?

I'm copy editor of our campus computing newsletter titled "ARKive."  We
try to publish a newsletter twice a semester and once in the summer. 
Even so, other projects tend to get in the way.  I'm curious to know what
type of publishing schedule other newletter editors use.

What are some of the issues in computing that you write about.  Do you
focus heavily on the Internet?  What kind of creative touches do you add
to your newsletter?  Do you publish on-line as well?

If there any other computing newletter staff members in the Usenet world,
I'd love to get in touch and share some ideas.

Thanks,
--
James W. Waters________________________
ARKive Copy Editor/ Computing Services  
Fayetteville, Arkansas                                       
jwaters@uafsysb.uark.edu                                
_______________________________________
From: fish@hpscit.sc.hp.com (John Fisher)
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 17:02:59 GMT
Subject: Re: Correspondence Courses for Writers - Useful or Useless
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Santa Clara, CA
Newsgroups: misc.writing

zrwp02@hou.amoco.com (Ronnie Powell) writes:

>Last month I got a card from the Long Ridge Writer's Group about their
>correspondence course for writers.  Without promising anything, they do
>make it sound like an attractive way to break into writing and to get
>published.
>
>Before commiting to anything, I'd like to hear some opinons on
>correspondence courses.  Are they worthwile, are they worth the money?
>Is it better to take some local writing classes, join a writer's group,
>go to a workshop, practice, .  .  .  ?


A few years ago I responded to a junk mail piece from this group (I'm
nearly certain it was this organization).  They asked for a writing
sample to determine if I was fodder for their program.  I sent a piece I
had already published, without disclosing that fact.  Their promise was
that the sample would be thoroughly evaluated and an analysis sent to
me.

The resulting analysis was extremely thin and consisted mostly of
assurances that I could be a first-rate-make-a-living-at-it writer if
only I took their course.  That was contained in two paragraphs of their
four page reply.  The rest was devoted to testimonials and financing
options for their school.  

My advice is to steer clear.


John Fisher at Hewlett-Packard |
in Santa Clara, CA             |  Insanity is just a state of mind.
fish@hpscit.hp.com             | 
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: jim@thinkage.on.ca (James Alan Gardner)
Subject: Re: Strunk and White
Organization: Thinkage Ltd.
Distribution: na
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 16:26:27 GMT

In article <l8lvv8INNdje@appserv.Eng.Sun.COM> kabir@kabir.Eng.Sun.COM writes:
>I have questions regarding Strunk and White's book on prose style. 
>
>For a long time I thought this book was the last word on English
>style. But now I wonder, is this book considered _that_ good
>by modern writers? Or, are Strunk and White considered proponents of
>a particular style, or "_ism" (with others "_isms," just as good,
>that I am unaware of?)

One should understand absolutely everything in Strunk and White,
but not necessarily follow the rules slavishly.  In fiction, for
example, you may have good reasons for choosing a viewpoint
character whose tone of voice conflicts with the rules.  For
that matter, Strunk and White don't really say much that is
geared toward writing fiction.  Of course, a clear and clean
sentence is just a valuable in fiction as in non-fiction, but
in a fiction piece, prose has to do all kinds of things that
Strunk and White don't talk about.

I would suggest having a look at "Style" by Frank Lucas.  It
deals with clarity and comprehensibility, but also considers
the expression of personality through prose (yours or a fictional
character's).  The book isn't at odds with Strunk and White,
it simply looks at areas that Strunk and White don't.

		Jim Gardner, Thinkage Ltd.
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: s0067284@ursa.calvin.edu (Jeffrey Veen)
Subject: Re: "Wow, You're a Writer!"
Organization: Calvin College
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 12:38:28 GMT

swkmorri@nuscc.nus.sg (Perry Morrison (Dr)) writes:

>Even worse, I've encountered an attitude amongst publishers and
>editors that runs: "Anyone can write--it's just that most of us
>choose not to..."

>With this kind of "respect", lousy pay, self-doubt, the trauma of
>producing-on-time, isolation etc. they may be right. Or maybe it's
>simply that "MORE people could write for a 'living' (than currently do)
>---it's just that most of them are FORCED not to..."

>perry morrison

Anyone _CAN_ write.  It is a skill that can be taught; just like playing the
bagpipes or dirving a forklift.  Most simply don't understand that in order
to be good, you must practice, daily, and work as hard as you do at any job.

Greatness in writing is another topic altogether.  Just as anyone can learn to
play a musical instrument, most will only play pre-existing music.  There is,
I believe a thing called inherent talent, but the exploiting of that talent is
where greatness is achieve.  Great writers are ones with great vision, yes, but
great determination is the key.  Greatness is found in the embracing of
potential, mediocraty is the embracing of greatness.

Jeff Veen
s0067284@calvin.edu
 
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: mtan@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Maureen Tan)
Subject: Proposal for Crawford Killian
Followup-To: misc.writing
Organization: UIUC
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 16:46:53 GMT

From: mtan@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Maureen Tan)
To: Crawford_Kilian@mindlink.bc.ca (Crawford Kilian)
Subject: Re: Work in progress
Organization: UIUC

In article <14387@mindlink.bc.ca>, Crawford_Kilian@mindlink.bc.ca (Crawford
Kilian) wrote:

> I don't want to trot out the storyline, but I will be happy to deal with any
> questions people may have about the early stages of novel development.



A PROPOSAL  and an open letter to Crawford K.:

I don't know if you are willing, but if you are *and* the misc.writing
people agree...

 It's not often that we netters get in on the very beginning of the novel-
writing process.  (I suspect we tend more to the scream for help in
the middle or the alternating insecurity/hope reports at the end.) And
seeing as how the writer in question is experienced, chatty, and
disgustingly
organized...

W ould anyone else find it fascinating to watch Crawford in a
"fly-on-the-wall" style as he works through the early stages of his
novel????

If you agree to this (and if you're foolish enough to agree to this
scheme, you really *can* quit anytime you like, Crawford) but you
 have to agree to post the bad stuff too.  And
perhaps the experience of negotiating with Del Rey--issues like
deadlines, cover art, y'know all that mysterious stuff.
Maybe it could be a series of Dear Netters letters.

I for one loved the letter technique you described and am already
wondering how you are going to move these characters around the
board.  Your letter writing technique is not one I've ever tried, but
after reading your post, I'm definitely going to.

*I* want to know what  you are going to do next.  (Call it a vicarious
thrill, if you must...  .)  Wadda ya think???

Maureen (a.k.a. Jane)
From: jtchew@csa3.lbl.gov (JOSEPH T CHEW)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: Looking it up (was: misspelled thread :))
Date: 13 Aug 92 16:50:43 GMT
Organization: Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory - Berkeley, CA, USA
Reply-To: jtchew@csa3.lbl.gov
NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.3.254.198
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.3-4   

Though it should probably come below a good dictionary among your
spending priorities, don't ignore the value of a secretarial handbook, 
either. It's a whole toolbox full of wheels you won't have to re-invent 
(including, to get back to the original subject, proper forms of address 
for various dignitaries).

Joe
"The pallid pimp of the dead-line/The enervate of the pen" --Robert Service
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: mtan@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Maureen Tan)
Subject: Re: Quote or simile for "success?"
Followup-To: misc.writing
Organization: UIUC
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 22:29:46 GMT



While I, personally, like the Dan Quale quote that Niles provided,
Emerson wrote:
"Born for success he seemed,
With grace to win,
Heart to hold,
With shining gifts that took all eyes."

And, this gem by Robert Hillyer that is irrelevant
to your speech but great for the writer's battered ego.  Imagine
yourself as the Columnist; you'll stand straighter,
your chin'll go up, and you'll get an interesting perspective
a-just for a moment- you  look down your nose at lesser mortals:

Silence! the Columnist is on the sill!...
She enters with triuphant condescension
Exuding promises of Sunday mention.
Impishly coy, grandiloquent with power,
She bids await the inevitable hour
When printer's ink shall scatter her largesse
On writers who have won their own success.

A P.S. to the Rhealist:  I looked it up in Bartlett's!!

Maureen (a.k.a. Jane)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: bf455@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Bonita Kale)
Subject: Re: "Wow, You're a Writer!"
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio, (USA)
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 92 13:26:46 GMT




In a previous article, jim@thinkage.on.ca (James Alan Gardner) says:

[Lot of good stuff deleted.]

>

>In addition, few people are ever exposed to
>really amateur writing, the way they might be exposed to rinky-dink
>art.  Sure, there's a lot of wretched stuff being published, but
>even the worst goes through an editor and a proofreader to clean
>up the messiest bits.  Furthermore, the average reader is only
>exposed to work done by authors with some claim to national or
>international stature: best-selling books; glossy magazines on
>the newstand; major TV and movie productions; wire-service articles
>in the newspaper.  These are all written by people who have made
>the big-time in their fields...the work may still be crap, but
>the writers have at least learned to give their crap a reasonable
>amount of polish.  Because most people don't really encounter
>truly amateur writing, they don't recognize how bad bad writing
>can be so they don't know how much work good writing requires.

[Lot of good stuff deleted here, too.]


That's true for fiction, but what bothers me is the quality of non-fiction and
poetry that -doesn't- bother other people.

Club newsletters are full of stuff that's bad by any standards.  People
read it, get the gist of it (or think they do) and figure it's fine.  And
the verse that's xeroxed and sent around, or printed in Dear Abby--some of
it's enough to make your hair stand on end.  It rhymes (sort of) and it's
supposed to scan, but doesn't, and it's made by stringing one cliche after
another, and people read it, agree with the sentiment ("Yes, we should be
kind to our mothers.") and say, "I think that's beautiful."

And I (no poetic genius, God knows, nor even a very well-educated reader)
feel as if I'm living in the land of the tone-deaf. 

Bonita Kale
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: mfc1493@zeus.tamu.edu (Ratboy)
Subject: Writing by new means...
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: Texas A&M University, Academic Computing Services
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 05:26:00 GMT

I realize a limited (or not so limited) discussion of this topic was posted here
recently but I missed it, pretty much...so...

I write all my first drafts by longhand, on notebook paper...it works for me.
But I recently tried my first rewrite on word processor and found that it also
works for me, in fact the new pieces that I cane up with on the word processor
are just as good, if not better, than the longhand pieces. I plan to continue
to write by longhand, but may start my rewrites on computer...I was wondering
what the drawbacks that some of you had encountered by writing/rewriting on the
computer...and the benefits...email me if you want...or post here...

Thanx in advance.

Michael
mfc1493@venus.tamu.edu
From: perez@mgr.hjf.org (Charles Perez)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: Charactor Titles
Date: 18 Aug 92 13:49:14 GMT
Organization: HJF AIDS Research Project, Washington DC

In article <1992Aug17.172549.4344@thinkage.on.ca> jim@thinkage.on.ca (James Alan Gardner) writes:
>In article <1992Aug14.150921.26090@nocusuhs.nnmc.navy.mil> perez@mgr.hjf.org (Charles Perez) writes:
>>As a non-catholic, I would not address the Pope as "your holiness".
>>I don't think he's holy. Similarly, calling a king "your majesty"
>>would imply that I was one of his subjects, which would be
>>unconstitutional given my citizenship.
>
>President Bush explicitly referred to Queen Elizabeth II of
>England as Her Majesty.

What U.S. official was it who got canned because she curtsied to royalty
some years ago? I know "Miss Manners" disapproved of American citizens
bowing or curtsying to royalty, seeing as how the U.S. Constitution
disallows it.

>It's a term of respect for the office,
>not an oath of devotion.  Choosing not to use the term is choosing
>a deliberate insult to the office and the holder thereof.  If
>that's not your intent, don't do it.

Did Queen Elizabeth II refer to Mr. Bush as "Mr. President"? Just a
question.

>
>And by the way, I know a number of people with joint Canadian-
>American citizenship.  Since Canadians are still nominally
>British subjects, there can't be any inherent U.S. constitutional
>conflict between being a U.S. citizen and being a subject of the
>Queen.

Hmmm... I didn't know that the USA permitted dual citizenship. I'll have
to check up on that.


-- 
==========================================================================
That which is necessary is never evil. If an evil seems necessary, look
to your context; that's where its root lies.  - Charles Perez
==========================================================================
Newsgroups: misc.writing