HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ah335@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Richard Banks)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
Subject: Re: Patrese's accident Vs Villeneuve's
Date: 28 Sep 1992 23:46:27 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: ah335@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Richard Banks)
NNTP-Posting-Host: slc4.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, thos@suite.sw.oz.au (Thomas Cohen) says:

>The accident was only similar in that Villeneuve ran into a car moving
>slower than he was. The course of the accident was _very_ different.
>For a start, Patrese's car landed largely upright, where Villeneuve's
>car rammed its nose into the ground. Patrese was also lucky enough
>to land just before the pit armco, which took a large amount of the
>impact, Villeneuve was thrown out after the nose of his monocoque
>was ripped off.

I don't mean to sound insensitive or morbid, but does anyone know of
a tape I can rent that has footage of Villeneuve's crash?
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
From: ajd@DIALix.oz.au (Anthony Doig)
Subject: Hot F1 rumours after Portugal
Organization: DIALix Services, Perth, Western Australia
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 92 11:17:51 GMT

Hi,

I watched a tape of the Portugal GP today - a very interesting one.

Anyway, a few things were said by our local commentators, one of them being
Alan Jones.  I've seen a couple of these things before in r.a.s, but I'll
include them again here :

* One of the part-owners of McLaren has bought Ligier.  This will allow
  Mclaren to use Renault engines next year.  Ligier have to find new engines
  Alan Jones said "Mclaren *will* have Renault engines next year".  I
  wonder how Renault feel about this.

* Frank Williams spoke to Ron Dennis (before the GP, I assume) and said
  something like "I can get you Renault engines and Prost if you give me
  Senna".  Prost did not know anything about this, so signed with Williams
  in Portugal to end any of these negotiations.

* Frank Williams may buy Mansell back from Carl Haas before next year.

* Patrese is peeved Mansell retired after he signed with Bennetton.  This means
  Patrese may go back to Williams (this is more probable than Mansell).  This
  could be an opening for Al Unser Jr to get back into Bennetton.

* Brundle and Blundle may go to Ligier.

There you have it.

Doigman,
--
Anthony Doig					| E-mail : ajd@Dialix.oz.au
Corporate Systems Development			| Voice  : +61 9 321 2442
Perth, Western Australia			| Fax    : +61 9 474 2553
--
How to drive a rally car :
	"Switch off the brain and push the throttle down -
		that is the quickest way."

				Juha Kankkunen, Perth 1992
-- 
Anthony Doig					| E-mail : ajd@Dialix.oz.au
Corporate Systems Development			| Voice  : +61 9 321 2442
Perth, Western Australia			| Fax    : +61 9 474 2553
--
From: glenn@misty.boeing.com (Glenn Cirlincione)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
Subject: Re: Top Five Drivers/Top Three Tracks
Date: 5 Oct 92 19:05:42 GMT
Organization: Boeing Commercial Airplane BCS Support

Tracks:
Brands Hatch - Although I have never been there, from the TV footage it appearedto be a exciting track to drive, spectate and photograph.

Pau - I attended a F-2 race here in 1984 and the environment was fantastic.  
Very low key environment, beautiful town with the racing though the streets  
(since 1938 -  the circuit has not changed much since then) and parks of this
town in Southern France near the Spanish border.  Although it is a race
thru the streets (and lord knows I do not care for those) one can actually 
"walk" most of the circuit during racing activities.  And of course there are
no concrete barriers to bar one from actually viewing the cars.

Road Atlanta - From both a racing and spectator view, this track has it.
Elevation changes, short and long straights, low-speed and high-speed turns.
Spectators can look down into the cars in a majority of turns and watch
the drivers making or not making adjustments (turn 6 was real good for this).
I highly recommend a visit to the SCCA Runoffs while they are still at Road
Atlanta.  You cannot beat three days of wall to wall racing with FULL fields
too!  Two problems though.  If it rains, that Georgia clay turns into snot
and it is very interesting to walk the track and if way too far from Seattle 
(but then that's my problem).

Drivers
...nah...
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
From: pmh2962@tamsun.tamu.edu (Patrick Michael Hayes)
Subject: Re: Dover Eyewitness Wanted (NASCAR)
Keywords:  F1 guys can do it ..... 
Organization: Texas A&M University, College Station
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 02:44:28 GMT

In article <1992Sep29.141349.10377@schbbs.mot.com> CENG51@maccvm.corp.mot.com (Craig Witkowski) writes:
>that took out the GMs (Great Machines) :-( and left the Fords (Boo, Hiss!)
>Craig Witkowski, CENG51@maccvm.corp.mot.com
>"I think that I shall never see,
>A driver as great as Number 3!"
--
uuh, excuse me ... uh...BBAAARRRFFFFFF!

-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pat Hayes, Meteorology, TAMU  <whoop!>  " ... Aggie by the grace of God."
net: phayes@tamu.edu -or- O&M 1008, TAMU, CS, TX 77843-3150 (409)845-1680 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
From: bob@ncube.com (Bob Kehoe)
Subject: Re: Buick leaves Indycar
Organization: nCUBE Computers, Beaverton, Oregon, U.S.A.
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 20:17:17 GMT

In article <1992Sep30.141957.10528@bnr.ca> Tim Dudley <dudley.chi@xerox.com> writes:
>A brief article in today's (Wednesday) Montreal Gazette says that
>Buick is pulling out of the Indycar series and will concentrate on the
>IndyLights instead.
>
>Tim

I'm surprised they stayed in it (IndyCars) as long as they did.
Let's face it, the Indy 500 was the ONLY race they really had a
shot at (one could argue about Michigan) and certainly all the
corporate dollars they poured into that program could never be
anywhere near recouped thru winning the thing.  In a way it's sad
to lose the only true-American engine program.

On the positive side, they have a great motor for the IndyLights
plus they get to win EVERY RACE!  Let's just hope that they do a
better job promoting that series and get it some more limelight.

-cball-
(still miffed cuz my cohorts at KFXX during the day yesterday cancelled
an Eli Gold interview because of the Magic Johnson story - it was
already (the Magic announcement) several hours old and had already been
hacked to death.  I know how tough it is to set up interviews, based on'
guy's schedules, travel, etc. and I don't feel they had a good enuf
reason to say no to Eli.  But then, the other guys aren't racing fans,
so.....

Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
From: cjp53999@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Cory James Padfield)
Subject: Re: Nigel and turbo lag
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1992 18:57:07 GMT

ljb@parkcity.dr.att.com (BLO54620-BonhamLJ(DR2194)240) writes:

>Unread news in rec.arts.startrek                           8 articles +    0 oldIn article <1992Sep24.180932.14441@aa.cad.slb.com>, wilson@mailhost.aa.cad.slb.com (David Wilson) writes:
>|> Someone made a comment about Nige having trouble adopting to the
>|> turbo lag of Indy cars.  The logic of that puzzles me.
>|> 
>|> First, Mansell came through the majority of the "turbo era" in
>|> F1.  He's run more potent turbo motors than Indy cars have ever
>|> seen.  They were also much smaller, and thus vastly more dependent
>|> on the boost for their power than 2.65 liter Indy motors.  The
>|> consequences of letting the boost fall off were therefore even
>|> more severe.  As for lag, perhaps the superior F1 technology was
>|> able to deal with it better than the Indy cars do (any Indy car
>|> fans want to swallow that??).
>|
>  I recall an acticle in Road & Track around 1986 or 87 in which Innes Ireland drove a
>Benetton/Ford.  He described the motor as having only enough power below 5000 RPM to idle itself
>and that the boost came on aroun 8000 RPM.  When the boost arrived it practically jerked the
>rear tires out from under the car.  Innes' overall opinion about the turbo cars was one of
>distast, fear and loathing.  Doesn't sound like the F1 engine boys of that era had a tremendous
>grip on managing the output of their engines.

>I'm both an Indy and F1 fan so I'm not knocking F1 or standing up for Indy I just wanted to
>point out that all race designers face tremendous technical problems and that there is often
>more than one solution depending one the performance priorities of the situation.

>Celtus Outacontrolus
>Any thing worth doing is worth over doing!

      And I recall an article in Autoweek around 1988 or 89 in which Jackie
Stewart drove a Benetton/Ford turbo. He described the abundance of power,
the style it took to get a quick lap at Brands Hatch, etc. He had no distaste,
fear, or loathing of the car. He thought it extremely quick, but mostly like
the cars he had driven in F1, only a lot faster. So, I am inclined to believe
Jackie's impression of the car, especially since he has driven better cars than
Ireland, and is a better driver. If Innes was in fear of the car, he probably
didn't drive it as best he could, so I think the conclusion that the engine
manufaturers didn't have controllable engines is not a logical one. Let's 
have Innes stick to reporting on the races for R&T, which he does very well,
and modern F1 car driving to someone a little better.

My $0.02 IMHO,
Cory
From: igb@fulcrum.bt.co.uk (Ian G Batten)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
Subject: Re: Portugal results SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS
Date: 29 Sep 92 09:05:02 GMT
Organization: Fulcrum Communications

In article <1992Sep28.191627.20244@hubcap.clemson.edu> csroach@eng.clemson.edu (Shane Roach) writes:
> in which you drop your spoon of Froot Loops and yell "HOLY SHIT!" 

On the James and Murrey show you could hear another commentary team
scream just before Murrey started talking.

ian
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
From: eliot@lanmola.engr.washington.edu (eliot)
Subject: Re: ESPN vs. CBC (was: Patrese - active suspension failure)
Organization: clearer than blir
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1992 23:29:16 GMT

In article <1992Sep26.201827.14960@iisat.alt.ns.ca> kevin@iisat.alt.ns.ca (Kevin Davies) writes:

>>   a. While CBC has commercials, it has the race on tape, so when they 
>>      return from the commercial break, they appear to restart the tape
>>      from the point of interruption. 

>	Actually, the CBC will 'cut' pieces out, when they insert
>	commercials.  You may lose anywhere from 0-6 laps at a time.
>	They have to squeze the normal 2 hours (or less) into 90 min.
>	with commercial breaks.

This is true last year, when they had races telecast at noon.  Now
that they put every race on the last programming slot of the night
(i.e. 11.30 pm) the races are uncut.  I have some races on tape that
are almost 2 1/2 hours long due to pre-race and post-race coverage.
I think that Hungary in particular was very long.

eliot
From: sanborn@berlioz.nsc.com (sanborn)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
Subject: Goodys 500???
Date: 30 Sep 92 19:33:45 GMT
Organization: National Semiconductor Corporation

Say whatever happened to the Goody's 500? I saw that it was rain
delayed and may have run on Monday, but I never heard if it did
or not. If it did run could someone post a synopsis and point
standings. If it didn't run, will it eventually or does it just
get dropped.

Thanks for any info,
Coug (sanborn@berlioz.nsc.com)

<Luke... may the Fords be with you>

-- 

ROT13 .sig >> Znqr ln ybbx! Uzzz, whfg jung jrer lbh rkcrpgvat? :-)
From: koslowj@math.ksu.edu (Juergen Koslowski)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
Subject: Portugal results SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS
Date: 27 Sep 1992 20:33:55 -0500
Organization: Dept. of Mathematics, Kansas State University
NNTP-Posting-Host: hilbert.math.ksu.edu
Keywords: Portugal results


LAST CHANCE TO BAIL OUT !!!




















D
ST CHANCE
Results of the race in Estoril:

1. Mansell
2. Berger
3. Senna
4. Brundle
5. Hakkinen
6. Alboretto
7. Schumacher

Patrese had a nasty accident when running into Berger's back as Berger
turned into the pits, around lap 40. But fortuantely Patrese walked away
with only bruises. Senna changed tyres at least 3 times!
Hakkinen needs only 3 more points to overtake Alesi ... 

Go LOTUS!

cheers,		J"urgen
-- 
J"urgen Koslowski         | If I don't see you no more in this world
Department of Mathematics | I meet you in the next world
Kansas State University   | and don't be late!
koslowj@math.ksu.edu      |                         Jimi Hendrix (Voodoo Chile)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
From: thos@suite.sw.oz.au (Thomas Cohen)
Subject: Patrese's accident Vs Villeneuve's
Organization: Softway Pty Ltd
Date: 28 Sep 92 21:27:15 GMT

In <1992Sep28.030917.7252@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> ngoldber@nyx.cs.du.edu (norm goldberg) writes:

>      And how about that Patrese accident,10 years ago a similar accident
>claimed the life of maybe the fastest driver of all time,Gilles
>Villenueve,in the words of the cigarette commercial,you've come a long way
>baby!-I mean the formula one chasis and safety regulations,they definately
>saved his life,much less his legs.well that's it!

The accident was only similar in that Villeneuve ran into a car moving
slower than he was. The course of the accident was _very_ different.
For a start, Patrese's car landed largely upright, where Villeneuve's
car rammed its nose into the ground. Patrese was also lucky enough
to land just before the pit armco, which took a large amount of the
impact, Villeneuve was thrown out after the nose of his monocoque
was ripped off.

regards,

-- 
thos cohen  				       |Softway Pty Ltd
 The best way to make a Japanese engineer wince|ACSnet:         thos@softway.oz
 is (when talking about an NSX) to say slowly  |UUCP: ...!uunet!softway.oz!thos
 'but its _not a Ferrari_ is it?' R.Bulgin, CAR|Internet:    thos@softway.oz.au
From: chrisp@regenmeister.Sun.COM (Chris Prael)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
Subject: Re: F1/CART safety (Re: Mansell goes to Indycars)
Date: 28 Sep 1992 21:55:27 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems Inc., Mountain View, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: regenmeister

From article <1992Sep25.211202.13707@cbnewsd.cb.att.com>, by slana@cbnewsd.cb.att.com (charles.e.slana):
> 
> I'm sorry, I'm not a person who enjoys flaming, but...
> 
> In article <1992Sep25.154253.6787@den.mmc.com>, hagood@sabre.den.mmc.com (Dave Hagood) writes:
>> 
>> 	I hope what happened to Piquet never happens to anyone, ever.  A 
>> lot of people don't understand just how severely Piquet was injured.  Piquet
>> went headon into a concrete wall at 220 mph or so in a car that was not as
>> crash-worthy as its F1 counterparts.              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> 
> Excuse me???

This time.
> 
> Do you have data to back up the claim that a Lola Indy car is "not as crash-
> worthy as it's F1 counterparts"?
> 
> I guess I must've missed that article...

You must have missed something.  It has been more than 5 years since the
Formula 1 regulation permitted the driver's feet to be forward of the
centerline of the front wheels.  CART/USAC rules still permit the
driver's feet to be a significant distance forward of the front wheel
centerline.

What this means, in practice, is: In F1, the drivers feet must be behind 
(thus protected by) the bulkhead that provides the front mount point for 
the front suspension arms.  In CART, the drivers feet may (and do)
project forward of that bulkhead.  

So, Indy cars basically leave the driver's feet and ankles protected
only by body work.  F1 cars protect the driver's feet and ankles with
the tub.  Where feet and legs are concerned, most people would conclude 
that the F1 car is more crash-worthy than is the Indy car.
 
...
> By the way, everybody talks about F1 using carbon fiber for safety reasons,
> but I always thought it was strictly for chassis stiffness and light weight.
> What's the real deal?  Also, does F1 have any construction rules based on
> safety such as positions of drivers' feet relative to the front wheels?

To the last, yes, see above.  About carbon fiber use: I think that most
designers would say weight and strength of chassis are the point.  A
stiffer chassis is one result.  Better protection of the driver is
another result.  The ability to divert weight from the chassis to other 
uses (such as hydraulic systems) without going to far over the minimum
weight is another result.  They are all important in a race car.

Chris Prael
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
From: welty@cabot.balltown.cma.COM (richard welty)
Subject: Re: Buick out of IndyCar?
Organization: New York State Institute for Sebastian Cabot Studies
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1992 15:57:58 GMT

In article <e55XRB2w165w@dlhpfm.UUCP> dlhpfm.uucp!dlh@ab.com (daniel lance herrick) writes:
>Has a Buick with the extra boost ever finished an Indy 500?  I thought
>the Buick engine was a qualifying engine; that the boost was guaranteed
>to break the engine long before it completes 500 miles.

it sure looked like Big Al brought the Buick home in third this year;
for me this was one of the highlights of the race.

although the truth is, that if anyone could get a Buick to last 500 miles,
i'd have put my money on Big Al.

cheers,
  richard
-- 
richard welty                            518-393-7228
welty@cabot.balltown.cma.com
  ``if you can read this, mario, you're too close''
    -- bumper sticker seen on a CART safety truck
From: bruno@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Bruno Melli)
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 20:29:18 GMT
Subject: Re: Estoril Gossip- WARNING!! posible spoilers ahead.
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Fort Collins, CO, USA
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport

>      And how about that Patrese accident,10 years ago a similar accident
> claimed the life of maybe the fastest driver of all time,Gilles
> Villenueve,in the words of the cigarette commercial,you've come a long way
> baby!-I mean the formula one chasis and safety regulations,they definately
> saved his life,much less his legs.well that's it!

I've never seen Villeneuve's accident, but in Patrese case he lucked out
because the car didn't land upside down. The outcome might have been
different had the wheel not touched and made the car go back down...

I hope that move can be attributed to brain fade on Berger's part. Although
remembering how Berger was warned for running into cars a few seasons ago
and seeing how he would squeeze Mansel when being passed I'm not too sure...

bruno.
From: winalski@adserv.enet.dec.com (Paul S. Winalski)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
Subject: Re: What is indy car about....
Date: 1 Oct 92 21:30:49 GMT
Article-I.D.: nntpd2.1992Oct1.213049.6722
Reply-To: winalski@adserv.enet.dec.com (Paul S. Winalski)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation, Nashua NH


In article <1992Oct1.044830.431@noose.ecn.purdue.edu>,
unglenie@ford.ecn.purdue.edu (Robert J Unglenieks) writes:
|>
|>Many things were required after the Sachs/MacDonald incident.  Fireproof
|>suits were required beginning in 1959 and thus wasn't a result of the 
|>accident.  The major rule change was the switch to methanol only and
|>smaller fuel tanks.

Fireproof suits were required as a result of the accident that fatally burned
Jerry Unser.

--PSW
From: Alan.Crowder@prg.oxford.ac.uk
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
Subject: Indy Stuff
Date: 1 Oct 92 15:22:53 GMT
X-Mailer: mail-news 2.0.3


Hi Racers

This *may* be a stupid question but here goes. Now that we have lost
Mr Wonderfull from F1 (nigel mansell) to INDY, what if any is the
nearest race to Sunnyvale in California.

See i said it might be stupid, but how is i sposed to know.

Thanx
Alan
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
From: johnf@apollo.hp.com (John Francis)
Subject: Re: Possible SPOILER...IndyCar: The Bosch Spark Plug Grand Prix
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 21:25:45 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Corporation, Chelmsford, MA

In article <1992Oct5.170513.21748@stsci.edu> lallo@stsci.edu writes:
    [ . . . . . ]
>Well, now I'm going to flame an Andretti too!
>Just what the hell is the matter with that family?
    [ . . . . . ]
>              In just 30 short seconds he [Michael] comes off looking like Al Bundy,
>doesn't mention a single word about his sponsors, alienates the race officials, and,
>more importantly, his crew. HIS OWN CREW! People on this net who race understand
>the importance of people who work on your car. But Michael publically insults them
>nationally. 

I put it down to the fact that Michael had just done the arithmetic and worked
out what his chances were of repeating as IndyCar champion.  Even worse, there
is very little he can do about the situation - it is mostly out of his control.

Not, mind you, that I in any way condone his boorish behaviour.  But I can in
some part identify with the emotional turmoil precipitated by knowing that you
have just made a major idiot of yourself in a very public fashion.  Under such
conditions better men than Michael Andretti have lashed out wildly at the first
available target - behaviour that they would later come to regret.
-- 
John Francis                                johnf@apollo.hp.com
Seen passing on the net:  Spotted Owl - the *other* white meat!
From: MJackson.Wbst147@XEROX.COM (Mark Jackson)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
Subject: IndyCar: Andretti - (Marlboro Challenge SPOILER)
Date: 6 Oct 92 15:04:01 GMT
Organization: Xerox Corporation, Webster NY

In article 7pG@apollo.hp.com, johnf@apollo.hp.com (John Francis) writes:

> I put it down to the fact that Michael had just done the arithmetic and worked
> out what his chances were of repeating as IndyCar champion.  Even worse, there
> is very little he can do about the situation - it is mostly out of his control.

And this on top of a highly frustrating weekend; he was already upset
with the officials about the stop-and-go penalties applied during the
Marlboro Challenge on Saturday.

> Not, mind you, that I in any way condone his boorish behaviour.

No.  It was an amazing display.

Mark <MJackson.Wbst147@Xerox.COM>
     Sloppy thinking gets worse over time
				- Jenny Holzer
From: ah335@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Richard Banks)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
Subject: Re: Top Five Drivers/Top Three Tracks
Date: 4 Oct 1992 15:42:08 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: ah335@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Richard Banks)
NNTP-Posting-Host: slc4.ins.cwru.edu


Drivers:

1. Senna
2. Schumacher
3. Hakkinen
4. Alboreto
5. Wendlinger

Circuits:

1. Interlagos - Brazil
2. Imola - Italy
3. Suzuka - Japan
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
From: nyberg@lut.fi (Juha Nyberg)
Subject: Re: Can someone post the F1 race results....NOW!
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 18:52:35 GMT
Organization: Lappeenranta University of Technology, Finland

.
.
.
5. Hakkinen
--
Juha nyberg                Thy say that there is someboby better than me
email nyberg@lut.fi                 but I haven't found one yet.
From: geoff@tyger.Eng.Sun.COM (Geoff Arnold @ Sun BOS - R.H. coast near the top)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
Subject: Re: Portugal results SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS
Date: 29 Sep 1992 12:42:44 GMT
Organization: SunSelect
NNTP-Posting-Host: tyger.east.sun.com

Quoth igb@fulcrum.bt.co.uk (Ian G Batten) (in <BvC18E.IwA@fulcrum.bt.co.uk>):
#In article <1992Sep28.191627.20244@hubcap.clemson.edu> csroach@eng.clemson.edu (Shane Roach) writes:
#> in which you drop your spoon of Froot Loops and yell "HOLY SHIT!" 
#
#On the James and Murrey show you could hear another commentary team
#scream just before Murrey started talking.
#
#ian

Nothing I read here in the SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS thread had
prepared me for actually seeing the crash last night (when ESPN finally got
around to showing it). I've always felt that under pressure Berger has
a tendency to lose his head and do something wildly irresponsible
(Monaco a few years ago, for instance), but this was unprecedented. A
multi-race suspension would not be inappropriate...

Hobbs and Varsha were both scathing about Berger's action. How did
the other commentators characterise it?

--
Geoff Arnold, PC-NFS architect, Sun Select. (geoff.arnold@East.Sun.COM)
-----------
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the fact that these postings just go on and on and on and seem to end in mid-