From: dvp@oasis.icl.co.uk (Geezer)
Newsgroups: alt.feminism,soc.men,soc.women
Subject: Re: Gender differences - Sophie Germain
Date: 18 Dec 92 20:01:38 GMT
Followup-To: alt.feminism
Organization: The Mountains of Madness
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4

michael@glia.biostr.washington.edu (Michael) writes:
> In <92350.160218RIPBC@CUNYVM.BITNET> <RIPBC@CUNYVM.BITNET> writes:
> >  Incidentally, I suspect that one of the reasons that men do not complain
> >about discrimination against males is that men are brought up to feel that
> >complaining is not masculine.  There MAY be a biological element here.
> >I can whine and complain with the best of them, but I find it almost
> >impossible to cry!!  Women seem to find it quite easy.  is that something
> >in which you can be influenced?  Or is it quite natural like sneezing?
> 
> I feel certain that the biological influence (if any) is small.  Men
> are culturally conditioned to what you just described.  However you
> *can* overcome this -- I have.  It took a lot of hard work to see
> through the illusion of what is masculine, but I've discovered that by
> opening up my emotions and accepting them and believing in myself
> despite my culture that I'm now stronger than I was before.  Sounds like
> a paradox -- I can cry yet I am not weakened by it.  But its true.

What is your opinion of the native American tribes of the past? Would
you say that their masculinity was something to be ashamed of or would
you perhaps say that their masculinity enabled them to survive in a
hostile environment and was therefore a necessity, an admirable trait
that enabled them to survive - except when the odds where too long?

Why is masculinity such a dirty word these days? Excesses of
masculinity, as excesses of anything, is not a good thing, but
masculinity is, in itself, nothing to be ashamed of. Masculinity
implies a determination not to be disheartened when things get tough,
not to be discouraged by physical pressure, not to be dissauded when
your chances of success seem slim. It's about showing those who may
think otherwise, that you can't be walked on and it's not a good idea
to try (OK, real Clint Eastwood stuff I know), but with restraint,
without being flashy about it. It is not about seeing how many
beers you can drink, or how fast you can drive or even how many women
youy can make, it can be a noble and worthy thing AND, it is not a
male preserve.

When a female exhibits masculine tendencies (kicks ass, whatever),
she is often admired by her peers for being go-ahead, take what you want,
person.  Men exhibiting the same tendencies are are labelled boorish,
chauvenistic (if women are involved) etc. 

I am not ashamed of being male, I am not ashamed of (trying) to be
masculine. I make no apologies for this. I believe, in general, womens
strengths are different to mine and that for that reason, we each NEED
the other at the end of the day. Trite words? Simplistic? Sure, but
then I don't have the ability to argue, analyse and discuss issues the
way some of you people do (and good luck to you).

My perception of radical feminists is that they want to remove man
as a 'threat' or 'obstacle' and the way they hope to achieve this is
too turn them into feminine men - make them ashamed of their
masculinity and their male-bonding etc. Neuter them in effect.
Feminists say that a woman should have the right to be a high flier
if she wishes, or to stay at home and raise kids if that's what she
wants. If she wants to be a hard-nosed go-getter fine. If she wants
to have a more traditionally feminine character, also fine. I would
ask then that they also extend that right to men. If a man wants to be
a 'macho' man that should be his right and he should not be condemmened
or ridiculed for being so.

Do I sound paranoid? Just another chauvanistic nutter with an axe to
grind? Think that if you will. All I'll say is that a few years ago
the word was that men should not put women on pedestals, now it seems
that there's those who, in the name of feminism, are trying to place
them on higher pedestals than they ever were before.

Why can't we have equality for all without dictating role models for
people? None of us are perfect or will ever come close.(another
profound statement :-) ).

Dave
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