From: donsw@cs.cornell.edu (Donald Wihardja)
Subject: Re: What is the problem ?
Organization: Cornell Univ. CS Dept, Ithaca NY 14853
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 22:41:24 GMT

In article <1k4k3sINNgr3@calvin.usc.edu> alves@calvin.usc.edu (William Alves) writes:
>Well if it merely a disagreement over the appropriateness of newsgroup
>selection (like someone on comp.music telling a poster he should have
>posted to rec.music.synth), then I reiterate that religion is a fundamental
>part of culture (as you concede below). However, the responses I have read
>so far indicate that the disagreement is much deeper than that and questions
>the appropriateness of any discussion of religion (at least arguing cer-
>tain veiwpoints) outside of the alt.religion.* groups. This is, in turn,
>related to the in my opinion mistaken belief that control of religious
>speech is necessary for the control of religious tension and animosity.

You are right in assessing that there are some people who doesn't like the
posting here because they are (slightly) religiously intolerant. However,
I don't believe I am. (Actually I am a bit intolerant to a religious fanatic,
but I don't think the posting is of such nature.) My reason for criticising
the posting is because I still think it is inapropriate. 

>In my experience, it is the people with the most intolerant and inflammatory
>points of views that cry most for the control of speech. In the United
>States, the Moral Majority in the early 1980's proposed a ban on speech
>critical of the government. A couple of years ago, Senator Jesse Helms
>proposed a ban on government funding of art that offended "members of
>any religion or non-religion." In my opinion, it is your hypothetical
>white supremacists who have the most to lose by an open and free forum.
>Faced with the onslaught of disgust and rational argument, their racist
>points of view wither.

"Stick and stone can break my bone,
 But words can never hurt me."

Well, that is a nice and utterly false statement. I believe there is such
a thing as an abuse of the freedom of speech. I have the right, for example,
not to be harrased and insulted. 

[WARNING, this is in reply to your freedom of speech posting, NOT the
Jesus has died one. In which case I think I have the right to expect
that ACI deals with things relevant to Indonesian culture.  I think
that the posting is not relevant to ACI.]

Ok, back to the insult paradigm. I hope you would agree that there is
a limit to freedom of speech, and things that are design to
INTENTIONALLY hurt someone1 else ought to be banned. Be it words, arts,
whatever. Of course to determine if something is INTENTIONALLY design
to hurt someone/group is hard/impossible, but such is life, nothing is
clear.

>Not too long ago, someone crossposted a blatantly racist and insulting
>post to many newsgroups. (It later turned out to be a hoax, but that's
>immaterial.) The flood of reasoned rebuttals as well as the expected counter-
>insults was astonishing. However, one person wrote their congressional
>representative as a result of the incident, asking for government over-
>sight of the usenet to prevent such abusive posts that "create divisiveness
>and racial tension." As you must guess by now, I vehemently disagreed.
>Instead of creating divisiveness on the usenet, there was unanimity in
>the negative responses. Instead of obtaining some sort of false veneer
>of validity, the poster was shot down by numerous well-argued rebuttals.
>Government intervention and control merely puts politicians in the
>position of deciding what speech is appropriate - a power which seems
>to be constantly abused and used for personal gain around the world -
>and also gives the worst of these groups de facto government recognition
>and a shield against the scrutinization of public forums.

Imagine someone reading that posting, that someone does not have to be
of the race attacked, just any "sensible" person. Imagine the shock,
(shame, if the reader can be grouped with the people who WROTE the
article), and fear (yes FEAR). Does the poster have a RIGHT to inflict
that on anybody? I think not. 

Think of the potential consequence. You know about mob psychology, right.
The more people who are with you (on your side), the more you are willing
to do drastic things. This is part of mob psychology. So, such racist
saying increases the belief in another racist that there are other people
on his side. He is more willing to do some action, as a result. You can
see what this leads to. 

Am I proposing a completely uniform, restricted society? I don't know.
I hope not. But I am definitely against a totaly free, anything goes
mentality as it has problems. Somehow, we have to find a middle ground,
if there is any.

>>(Would Mr. Alves seriously
>>wanted to hear two racist talk about how much inferior blacks are, or 
>>worse, two blacks discussing what a bunch of oppressive trash all the 
>>whites are.  
>No, I would probably just press "n". By the way, why is the second scenario
>worse than the first?

Not before you read the title, and maybe, if it touch you hard enough,
(which is what the second scenario will do, assuming you are
caucasian, that is.) you will read it. You will feel hurt, angry. 
Hopefully you will feel angry at the stupid poster, but anger is a
very unwieldy feeling. 

You are Californian, right? Or at least you follow the riot coverage a
few months back. I did to. I remembered an interview between a radio
MC and a black woman:

MC> How do you feel?
woman> I feel hurt, angry. I want to go out there and find some white people
       and beat them up.
MC> You are not serious about that, do you?
woman> Yes I am. You don't know what we have been through. You just don't 
       understand.

Okay this is not a transcript. But it did happened. I remember feeling
shocked, disturbed. (and I am not white :> ) I remember that there is
more interviews like that. 

Reasonable? No. Why not. It is true that they have been opressed. It
is true that the judgement is definitely not fair. At least to them.
Now what. Who is right. Who is wrong.

Donald
-- 
CS Department, Cornell University
Ithaca, New York.
Newsgroups: alt.culture.indonesia