HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mara@panix.com (Mara Chibnik)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Twice Fucked (Colorado gays)
Date: 10 Nov 92 16:34:30 GMT
Organization: (getting there)


Jeff Shaumeyer and Bob Donahue argue that CO-2 is bad enough that 
even though OR-9 would have been "worse," that's effectively a
distinction without a difference.

Andrew M. Solovay disagrees with them and is being flamed on
that account.  I think that I posted something about OR-9's
worseness a few days ago, and nobody has flamed me for it (yet).

CO-2 is *bad*, and I make no mistake about it.  But it doesn't
require teaching school children that homosexuality is a perversion,
and it allows the possibility that an openly gay schoolteacher might
even stay in that job.  I think there's a measurable difference.

I also agree that this is war.  I think that there are weapons
capable of different degrees of destruction, and that these are two
different kinds of weapons.  The people wielding them are our
enemy.  No doubt about it.  Does that mean that we can't distinguish
between them?

And how come nobody thought of flaming _me_, huh?  (Oh, sorry;
that's a different thread.)

-- 

  Mara Chibnik
  mara@panix.com                Life is too important to be taken seriously.
From: mattm@apple.com (Matthew Melmon)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Inconsistency re CO boycott
Date: 6 Nov 92 17:28:28 GMT
Followup-To: soc.motss
Distribution: soc
Organization: Apple Computer, Inc.

In article <BOB.92Nov5190157@dolores.Stanford.EDU>,
bob@dolores.Stanford.EDU (Bob Lodenkamper) wrote:

> Would someone arguing the anti-boycott case care to explain just why
> "business as usual" should prevail in CO without relying on the
> basically irrelevant fact that a successful boycott could hurt
> everyone in the state.

Beyond your 'basically irrelevant' fact that the *intent* is to harm
everyone in the state (as to the reality, I very seriously doubt that
anything resembling the stand against Arizona will materialize); there
is the other 'basically irrelevant' fact that the fundamentalists will
not be particularly phazed, and will probably enjoy the opportunity
to portray such efforts as a 'national homosexual agenda.'

And now, let us imagine the worse case scenario:  the homosexual
community raises all manner of Hell, and *nothing* *happens*
(not too terribly unlikely, given the size of the active homosexual 
community).  

Beyond that, no objections here.  Boycott away.  I hear Idaho is 
lovely this time of year.  It would, of course, be even lovelier
if one were able to secure River Phoenix, in in your Own Private
Hot Tub...

*X*
Xref: sparky soc.motss:47328 alt.politics.homosexuality:7134 co.politics:1904 co.general:1734 talk.politics.misc:59896 co.politics.amend2.discuss:20 boulder.general:1016
From: dickerso@fester.dell.com (Russell Dickerson - X2787)
Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.politics.homosexuality,co.politics,co.general,talk.politics.misc,co.politics.amend2.discuss,boulder.general,csu.general
Subject: Re: Colorado Amendment 2: The First Fatality
Date: 12 Nov 92 17:29:17 GMT
Reply-To: dickerso@cpat.stortek.com
Organization: IO SpecialistsConsulting

tchrist@convex.com (Tom Christiansen) writes:
>Colorado Springs man, it obsessed him in the final minutes before he
>took his life.

I refuse to allow you to blame his CHOICE of suicide on anyone but himself.
He did the deed, not me or my neighbor.  I think he was just a quitter.  
Suicide is NEVER the answer to a social problem!  


--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Russell Dickerson	Unix/X Consultant	IOSpecialists
(303) 673-2787 ---REPLY TO>>> dickerso@cpat.stortek.com <<<!!!!--------
For every vision, there is an equal and opposite Congressional revision.
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: brown@NCoast.ORG (Stan Brown)
Subject: Re: It stinks!
Organization: Oak Road Systems, Cleveland Ohio USA
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1992 21:00:29 GMT

In article <1BEBEB9FFS@tron.gun.de> ultimate@tron.gun.de (Frank Stender) writes:
>On 02.11.92 MARKC%EOMER.HW.STRATUS.COM@USENET.ZER wrote:
>
>-> Hmmmmm!  I hope you do leave the country.  Maybe you can go to Germany
>-> where racism is rampant.
>
>Wonderful! Typical american narrow-minded thinking - I'm glad you know so
>much about Germany and the problems we have. Have you ever thought about
>running for the Secreatry of State? It's people like you that made your
>country big. (Warning - Sarcasm!)

I can't speak for the original poster, but what makes me nervous is the
news reports that there is ethnic violence against refugees and that the
official response is not to crack down on those who perpetrate the
violence but rather to deport some of the refugees and make it harder
for others to come in.  I readily admit that all I know is what I get in
the U.S. news media, so my knowledge is _a_fortiori_ incomplete.
-- 
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems                      brown@Ncoast.ORG
Cleveland, Ohio, USA
"Only the futility of the first flood prevents God from unleashing another."
            --Chamfort, as quoted in Claude Arnaud's {Chamfort: A Biography}
From: broughton@lambda.usask.ca
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Good news, Good news, Bad news and revenge
Date: 5 Nov 92 17:26:45 GMT
Article-I.D.: access.1992Nov5.172645.14102
Reply-To: broughton@lambda.usask.ca ()
Organization: University of Saskatchewan

In article <1992Nov4.213302.12923@gordian.com>, mike@gordian.com (Michael A. Thomas) writes:
|>In article <1992Nov4.203245.156@PacBell.COM>, rjwill6@PacBell.COM (Rod Williams) writes:
|>> I hope that L/G Ski Week in Aspen -- I was planning to attend
|>> in '93 :-( -- moves to Lake Tahoe...
|>
|>  My feelings exactly. Unfortunately, Tom Chatt's mother already 
|>booked our tickets :-( :-(

If you really believed in helping the situation, you would cancel your tickets
and put as little money into the Colorado economy as possible.

If you aren't willing to sacrifice a little to help the cause, then don't
pretend you really care.

Darrell
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson)
Subject: Re: Twice Fucked (Colorado gays)
Organization: Madison Academic Computing Center, UW-Madison
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 92 03:09:15 GMT


In article <BOB.92Nov10145343@dolores.Stanford.EDU>
bob@dolores.Stanford.EDU (Bob Lodenkamper) writes:

>If people are going to attempt to flame, they should really read
>alt.flame for a while to get an appreciation of just how pathetic,
>feeble-minded, and tired simple name-calling really is.

The perceived art (present or not) in the flame is not at
issue here.  Andrew defends himself on the basis of camp,
and admits that part of it was too much, but that too does
not really address the issue Debby Swayne raises: anti-woman
sentiment embedded in (and quite arguably inseparable from)
phrases like "on the rag" or "having cramps" or "take a
Mydol" or any such smartass crack that refers to women in a
negatively loaded way.

I don't think it makes much difference what the intention
was, the end result is anti-woman, and we have the direct
statement of a woman to that effect.  That doesn't seem to
me to involve the issue of flame _qua_ flame at all!  That
doesn't seem to me to involve camp at all.

Some other feminine references are in fact camp, and I don't
think they're anti-woman.  But pretty clearly, the given
instance is not one of those.

-- 
Jess Anderson <> Madison Academic Computing Center <> University of Wisconsin
Internet: anderson@macc.wisc.edu <-best, UUCP:{}!uwvax!macc.wisc.edu!anderson
Room 3130 <> 1210 West Dayton Street / Madison WI 53706 <> Phone 608/262-5888
<>  <>  <> Discrimination, Bigotry, and Hate are not Family Values <>  <>  <>
From: lance@hartmann.austin.ibm.com (Lance Hartmann)
Newsgroups: soc.motss,soc.bi,alt.politics.homosexuality
Subject: Colorado addresses - Start your laser printer engines....
Summary: CO Addresses of various gov't officials, businesses.
Keywords: colorado address amendment2 state constitution discrimination
Date: 5 Nov 92 20:45:33 GMT
Reply-To: lance%hartmann.austin.ibm.com@ibmpa.awdpa.ibm.com
Followup-To: soc.motss
Distribution: usa
Organization: IBM, Austin

A little research at the library yields the attached list.  I'm unsure
as to whether or not the gov't officials are still valid considering
recent elections all over....

Self de-muffin'd and MAD,
Lance Hartmann (lance%hartmann.austin.ibm.com@ibmpa.awdpa.ibm.com)
               Yes, that IS a '%' (percent sign) in my network address.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
All statements, comments, opinions, etc. herein reflect those of the author
and shall NOT be miscontrued as those of IBM or anyone else for that matter.

=x=x=x=x=x cut here for this valuable coupon offer x=x=x=x=x=x=x=x=x=x=x=x

Governor Roy Romer
136 State Capitol
Denver, CO 80203-0000

Lt. Governor Mike Callihan
130 State Capitol
Denver, CO 80203-0000

Attorney General Gale Norton
110 16th St, 10th Fl
Denver, CO 80202-5202

Secretary of State Natalie Meyer
1560 Broadway, Ste. 200
Denver, CO 80202-5169

Supreme Court ????
2 E. 14th Ave
Denver, CO 80203-2116

Department of Revenue
1375 Sherman St, Rm. 104
Denver, CO 80261-0002

Office of Business Development
1625 Broadway, Ste. 1710
Denver, CO 80202-4729

Chamber of Commerce
1600 Sherman St
Denver, CO 80203-1604

Colorado Association of Commerce and Industry
1776 Lincoln St., Ste. 1200
Denver, CO 80203-1029

Denver Metro Convention and Visitors Bureau
225 W. Colfax Avenue
Denver, CO 80202-5304

Aspen Chamber Resort Association
425 Rio Grande Place
Aspen, CO 81611

Snowmass Resort Association
P.O. Box 5566
Snowmass Village, CO 81615

Copper Mountain Resort
P.O. Box 3001
Copper Mountain, CO 80443

Keystone Resort Colorado
Box 38
Keystone, CO 80435

Sheraton Steamboat Resort and Conf. Center
P.O. Box 774808
Steamboat Springs, CO 80477

Vail Resort Association, Marketing and Sales
100 E. Meadow Dr
Vail, CO 81657

Denver Magazine
100 Garfield St
Denver, CO 80206-5550

Denver Post
1560 Broadway
Denver, CO 80202-5177

Rocky Mountain News
400 W. Colfax Avenue
Denver, CO 80204-2694
From: dgilly@us.oracle.com (Daniel Gilly)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Gay Presidents
Summary: Gore Vidal speculates on US presidents
Date: 10 Nov 92 21:26:12 GMT
Organization: Oracle Corporation, Redwood Shores CA 94065
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by an unauthenticated user
              at Oracle Corporation.  The opinions expressed are those
              of the user and not necessarily those of Oracle.

In the November 10 issue of the San Francisco Chronicle is a 
news snippet entitled, "What's Going on in the White House Closets".

Above this headline are head shots of George Washington and
Alexander Hamilton, with the captions:
 
Washington:  Sugar daddy?			Hamilton:  Boy toy?

(I find the incongruous sensationalism of the captions
amusing rather than offensive.)

The news item refers to an interview of Gore Vidal by
Larry Kramer in QW (a gay magazine I've never heard of).
The blurb focuses on Vidal's speculations about gay presidents:

Abraham Lincoln:   "maybe had some sort of gay relationship"

James Buchanan:    "generally agreed to be [gay]"

Franklin Pierce:   "certainly an interesting case"

Washington:        "very much in love with (Hamilton)"
				   (Vidal goes on to doubt that anything 
				   ever happened.)

I don't know what to conclude about the Chronicle's purpose
in reporting this.  The item struck me as somewhat interesting, 
but mainly silly.
-- 
Daniel Gilly                                   dgilly@us.oracle.com 
                                               Oracle Corporation
------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: shore@dinah.tc.cornell.edu (Melinda Shore)
Subject: Re: Inconsistency re CO boycott
Organization: Cornell Theory Center
Distribution: soc
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 19:58:15 GMT

In article <1992Nov6.180620.16452@gordian.com> mike@gordian.com (Michael A. Thomas) writes:
>I think
>that secondary boycotts of companies who happen to be located in
>Colorado would be less effective since it is less visible.

There really are several issues here.  There's an obvious
question about the effectiveness of a boycott, but aside
from the more obviously political considerations are the
personal ones.  If you think that I would knowingly put one
penny (either directly or through taxes) into the coffers
of a state which just voted my rights away, think again.
Whether or not there's an organized boycott, and whether or
not strategists agree that a boycott would be effective, I
care very much where my dollars go.
--
           Hate is not a family value.  Boycott Colorado

       Melinda Shore - Cornell Theory Center - shore@tc.cornell.edu
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: thaaang@cwis.unomaha.edu (John Dorrance)
Subject: Re: Having Voted, Bought Some Books
Organization: University of Nebraska at Omaha
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 04:19:31 GMT

When is participating in a Democracy like a bowel movement?

anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson) writes:

>... and stately orisons.  Wrt to winners, I felt better about
>this vote than I did about Johnson in 64 or Carter in 76.

(Jess is okay! Yay!)

--
John Dorrance        * Sexyfunky Motherfuckerdiva *   thaaang@cwis.unomaha.edu

		I bet if you threw that ass into the air
			It'd turn into sunshine!
From: dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Okay, what makes a Gay or Lesbian turn Republican?
Date: 11 Nov 92 18:18:10 GMT
Article-I.D.: spdcc.1992Nov11.181810.7874
Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting, Cambridge MA

In article <17895@autodesk.COM> owen@autodesk.com (D. Owen Rowley) writes:
>Barry Goldwater was nominated by his party in 1964 at the Cow Palace
>in San Francisco Ca.. In his acceptance speech he said:
>
>"Extremeism in the defense of Liberty is no vice, 
>moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue".
>
>The liberal press crucified him.
>
>I think it would make a great Queer nation slogan myself.
>:-)

I didn't think much of Clayton's quip, but this one ought to go in
Jess's quotes file.


-- 
Steve Dyer
dyer@ursa-major.spdcc.com aka {ima,harvard,rayssd,linus,m2c}!spdcc!dyer
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: black@sybase.com (Christina Black)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: ==> Clinton/Gore On AIDS
Date: 5 Nov 92 18:04:07 GMT

Bob Donahue writes:
>I can't see how the status quo from the Democrats is that much different
>in attitude than the Republicans.

The difference is that, over the last 12 years, the Republicans haven't
given us the status quo -- they've done their best to move us backwards
and have succeeded all too well.

-- Chris
black@sybase.com
From: dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: discrimination at CMU
Date: 11 Nov 92 19:40:32 GMT
Article-I.D.: spdcc.1992Nov11.194032.11159
Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting, Cambridge MA

In article <CORWIN+.92Nov11120016@MORPHEUS.CIMDS.RI.CMU.EDU> corwin+@CMU.EDU (Scott Safier) writes:
>I find the implication that it is OK to force someone to deny their
>sexuality repugnant, and that is what I view as going on in Drama.

Insisting that someone suppress fey mannerisms in a role which doesn't
call for it is "forcing someone to deny their sexuality"?  Weird.

Let's turn this around and focus on the real issues.  How "mannered"
were these individuals who were dismissed from the department?
From: richard@Apple.COM (a flying squirrel)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Oh, Wicked, Wicked Squirrel
Date: 4 Nov 92 21:49:43 GMT
Organization: Xiola Blue

A simple thank you would have sufficed.  ;^)

I saw it in Kauai.  I could not help myself.  It was on sale.  I was not
having a bad hair day (one needs hair for that).  It was, in a sense,
a Twinkie Fun Pak(tm).  No drugs here, folks.  Just say no!  Just say Jason!

Twinkie Fun Pak is a trademark of John Dorrance, 1992.  I blame my election
elation for this silly tripe.
-- 
a flying squirrel is: richard@apple.com  Apple Computer Inc.

i'm your girl            friend
i'm your squirrel        friend
i'm your round the world friend

"In America, we can't even get corruption right."  - my CFII.
From: bcapps@agora.rain.com (Brent Capps)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Boxer Campaign Needs Your Help!
Date: 31 Oct 92 23:05:04 GMT
Article-I.D.: agora.Bx0DGH.Ju6
Organization: Open Communications Forum

rdonahue@spdcc.com (Bob Donahue) and adolphso@mizar.usc.edu (adolphson)
write:
>[paperwork snafus in the Registrar's Office, Grad School Office, etc.]

My favorite story about Registrar paperwork snafus occured when I was
a grad student back at OU.  One day as we were hanging around the 
grad student salt lick, shooting the breeze, a perky senior bounces up
and announces that (ta da) he's finished, all the paperwork's done,
he's graduating.

In a complete deadpan, and without missing a beat, one of the postdocs
pipes up: "Did you pay your end-of-the-semester fee?"

Pause.  I heard a pin drop somewhere across campus.  "Um, what
end-of-semester fee?"  We had him.

"Oh, that's the fee you have to pay to cover the paperwork at the
end of your last full semester before graduation."

His face turned beet red.  "You mean I'm going to have to go stand
in that *&!!@$! line AGAIN to pay some $#@&% fee no one TOLD me about?!!"
He stomped out in rage and frustration.

We pieced the rest of the story together some time later.  When he finally
got to the front of that *long* line, he told the girl at the desk that he
was there to pay his end-of-the-semester fee.

"Your what?"

"My end-of-the-semester fee.  You know!"

A clouded look crossed the girl's face, and she excused herself to go
talk to one of her supervisors.  After a few moments, she returned and
said:

"That'll be $10."
-- 
Brent Capps                          | 
bcapps@agora.rain.com (gay stuff)    | okay, but wash it first.
bcapps@atlastele.com (telecom stuff) |
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: may@hpcesma.ce.hp.com (Elaine May)
Subject: Cowardly Bigots
Reply-To: may@hpcesma.ce.hp.com
Organization: HP Corporate Engineering - Palo Alto, CA
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1.4 PL6]
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 22:40:09 GMT

I am disappointed and angry about amendment 2.  Not only at the Colorado 
voters, but also at myself.  I wonder if I could have given more money, 
spoken out more, been more involved.  Would it have made a difference?  I 
think it could have.  But, I was still burnt out from trying to get a civil
rights ordinance in Fort Collins, I was wrapped up in moving to California,
and I figured that "others" would handle it.  So, I sent some money to
EPOC, I facilitated HP diversity classes as an open lesbian, and I asked
friends and co-workers to vote no on 2, but that was it.

In all the discussions on #2 and during my last visit to Colorado (a couple 
of weeks ago), I never heard anyone speak out in favor of #2.  I never saw 
bumper stickers in favor of #2.  People who voted for this are cowardly 
bigots who know that what they are doing is shameful and hateful.  And we 
let them do it.

I am going to reclaim the word "morality".  Bigotry and hatred is immoral.
Gays and lesbians are decent, upright citizens and we need to make this known.
Personally, I'm going to become a "lesbian activist" in local, state, and
national politics.  We cannot let this happen again.
--
Elaine May                               Hewlett-Packard Corporate Engineering
may@hpcesma.ce.hp.com		         Palo Alto, California
------------------- Hatred and Bigotry are immoral ---------------------------

Notes on boycotts:
1. HP does have a policy prohibiting discrimination based on sexual 
   orientation.  If you plan on boycotting HP products (an act I am not 
   encouraging by any stretch of the imagination), I suggest you write to
   HP and tell them why.  If there's something HP could do to change your
   mind, you might want to tell them that as well.
   HP's mailing address is:
      P.O. Box 10301
      Palo Alto  CA  94303-0890
2. If you decide not to vacation in Colorado this year, call the Colorado
   Tourism Board at (303)-592-5510 and let them know why.
IMHO, boycotts are only effective when the people you're boycotting know
exactly what you're doing and why.
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: ric@hal.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Graffiti 404-972-4999)
Subject: Re: Gerbiling (Nelson, are you there?)
Summary: Oh, puh-leez
Organization: /etc/organization
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 13:16:39 GMT


I, too, have =never= found a verifiable reference or source for this rumor.

-- 
 -Ric     __                       __                                 __
          \/   ric@gnu.ai.mit.edu  \/   Graffiti BBS  404 972-4999    \/
                 GEnie: GRAFFITI      PO Box 3176, Lithonia GA 30058

Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: bob@dolores.Stanford.EDU (Bob Lodenkamper)
Subject: Re: discrimination at CMU
Followup-To: soc.motss
Organization: Computer Systems Laboratory, Stanford University
	<CORWIN+.92Nov11152337@MORPHEUS.CIMDS.RI.CMU.EDU>
	<mattm-111192135155@mcmelmon.apple.com>
Date: 11 Nov 92 20:23:08

In article <mattm-111192135155@mcmelmon.apple.com> mattm@apple.com
(Matthew Melmon) writes (in response to Scott Safier): 

   No.  Why resort to a contrived, fictional example where an actual
   letter of dismissal already exists?  No reason, other than the
   fact that you, yourself, must perceive the inherent weakness in
   your case.  The 'real' letter shows an individual being dismissed
   for failure to meet the requirements of his chosen course of 
   study.  You steadfastly refuse to recognize the duties of an
   actor, and insist that dismissal can only have been the result
   of discrimination.  You are an apologist for failure, seeking
   to blame sinister forces where none exist.

I'm not convinced that this issue is completely clear-cut.

For the sake of argument let's assume the students who were flunked
out failed because their mannerisms on stage (or in acting class) were
inappropriate to the roles they were playing.

At first this appears to be a simple case of professional competence
--- an actor is supposed to play the role, and inappropriate
mannerisms are unprofessional.

But I strongly suspect that some hypothetical "hyper-manly" actor who
was purely incapable of acting in any other way (i.e. the role of a
swishy gay man, sensitive guy, crossdresser, whatever) would not be
flunked out.  It would likely be said that such roles are sufficiently
unusual that an inability to act them out properly was not a fatal
failure of professional competence, while inability to act the role of
standard American straight man is too unprofessional.

I think an argument of this form is flawed, for accepting it seems to
lead to a situation where professional schools are obliged to
passively mirror the status quo of their respective professions.  In
particular, a great many professional schools have excluded women on
much the same basis, which was and is indefensible.

The CMU case is subtle enough that I can say little more without
firsthand knowledge, but I do feel that the argument based on
professional competence (or being able to get a job in the field after
graduation) is insufficiantly compelling to warrant a summary
judgement that no discrimination is happening.

- Bob
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: entropy@world.std.com (The Entropic one)
Subject: Colorado embargo?
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 23:05:18 GMT

Are there any legal problems with a business refusing to do business
with the residents/businesses of a particular state? 

If not an embargo of Colorado might be another and very powerful approach.
Basically convince companies such as Levi's, Geffin records etc to not
sell to Colorado, in return get large numbers of queers to only buy from
those companies whenever possible.

An embargo would have an effect much more noticeable to the average voter
than a boycott alone.when suddenly records by certain artists, certain cloths
, etc could not be purchased in Colorado. 

Obligatory Colorado company to boycott-
 Colorado memory systems-1-800-432-5858
-- 
----          Join the Pythagorean Reform Church!         ----
\  /        Repent of your evil irrational numbers        \  /
 \/   and bean eating ways. Accept the #4 into your heart! \/
     Call the Pythagorean Reform Church BBS at 508-793-9568        
Newsgroups: soc.motss