From: winkler@zrzsp12.bg.tu-berlin.de (Barbara Maren Winkler)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Eowyn
Date: 20 Dec 1992 17:41:24 GMT
Organization: ZRZ/TU-Berlin
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: zrzsp12.bg.tu-berlin.de

seurer@rchland.vnet.ibm.com (Bill Seurer) wrote:
|> 
|> So far most (all) of the posting about Eowyn and sexism has been by
|> men.  What do some of the women out there think?  Did Eowyn cop out at the
|> end?

  When I was a little girl and read LoTR, I was actually fascinated at
Eowyn's role and her rebellion, and I identified with her readily,
and I half-consciously closed out the fact that she did it only
to impress Aragorn or as a form of honorable suicide. My identification
figure, my ideal Eowyn was a strong, strong-willed, active woman
who went out and showed to all men that she could be as good as them
at warfare.

  And when in the end she renounced warfare and went to be a healer
and gardener, I didn't want to accept it: No, this wouldn't have
been me.



lewchuk@cs.UAlberta.CA (Michael Lewchuk) wrote:
|> So?  Women were domestic, even in Tolkien's time.  In feudal times, in
|> which LOTR is set, women WERE VERY MUCH SO domestic.  Very few women, other
                                       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
				       no... but let's see...
|> than nuns and ruling queens, actually did play major leadership roles outside
|> of the house.  Even men were primarily "domestic": farmers, ranchers, herdsmen,
|> tailors, "tinkers" (blacksmiths)...  remember, in that age, there was no such
|> concept as "business".

  You are getting to the limits of the word 'domestic' here.  I would say that
feudal women were not domestic, because the word doesn't apply; 'domestic'
as opposed to 'public' requires a certain social and economical structure,
the existence of 'business' (as you say) and the bourgeois ideology about
the house/home as the place of recreation, peace, purity (as opposed to the
impure outside world with which men had to deal) where women rule
("mistress of the household" and later "mother"), and a corresponding
idealization of women as natural nurtures and healers, an idealization that
still persists.
  Let's not fight about words. Maybe this is not the only way the word 'domestic'
can be understood; but this, inherently bourgeois, conception of "home" and
of "woman", is effective in the LoTR; but _without_ the economical/social setting,
the private/public opposition, that made it possible. The way woman/home
is portrayed, as well as the fact that they somehow, unquestionably, belong
together, has its roots mostly in the late 18th and 19th century, and less in the
(many) earlier forms of the sexual division of labor.
  Note: the term "bourgeois" just describes a place in time and society,
it is not a judgement.

seurer@rchland.vnet.ibm.com (Bill Seurer) wrote:
|>       JRRT was probably considered a radical back in the late 30s for
|> having a woman warrior like Eowyn, even if she did "settle down" at the
|> end.

  But it is not unusual or radical to think about a (single) woman who
takes arms and wants to fight, not even in the 1930s; a common theme in
literature, as others have argued. And also, it is not at all unusual that
she in the end "gets tamed" by a man (very sexist term) and takes on a more
'domestic' role, becoming a healer and gardener. And this is what bothers
me, and has always bothered me since I first read LoTR.
  Eowyn has all sorts of perfect reasons to marry and become a healer;
her "heart has changed", and healing is more valuable than killing,
isn't it? Even the LoTR characters agree on that. All their fights are to
the end of protecting a rural, domestic, peaceful life... All the arguments
that Tolkien has her say in the talk to Faramir sound good. But it just
strikes me subtly that all such arguments only appear in connection with
a _woman_. None of the men who always fight have to bother about such
arguments; Aragorn can dismiss them by pointing to his "duty". Healing is
more valuable than killing, or so it is said, but only in connection with
women.
  Looking at the real roots of this image of women: The 19th century
idealization of women and home fell together with their actual devaluation.
A 17th century household was a place where bread, beer, and all sorts of
things were produced; it was an important economic factor. The 19th century
household was much less so. With industrialization and the upcoming of
industry, the "public" sphere got more and more weight, and the "private"
sphere with the women in it was marginalized more and more. Men might talk
about how wonderful and pure and peaceful the home was and how important
to society, and they did so precisely because it wasn't obvious any more...
because "the home" became more and more superfluous, and the economic
power went somewhere else.
  This marginalization is exactly what can be observed in LoTR. As Jim
Chokey pointed out, the places where women occur at all are rare, and
they are usually connected with domestic tasks or a home. It just isn't
interesting. Tolkien states this very explicitly somewhere either in
the "hobbit" or in the beginning of LoTR, saying that there is not much
to say about quiet life when people stay at home, and that adventures
are much more interesting. Now, adventures are something where only
men participate (except Eowyn...).
  This directly corresponds to the way the sexual division of labor
is valued in almost all societies. Theoretically, growing plants and
healing etc., and the productive feminine tasks, ought to be valued
much higher, but they just aren't. Male activities and especially warfare
have a much higher social status, even though they may pretend they
do it all to protect the women and children. (Look at how much money
U.S. society spends on military and how much on education.)
  And Eowyn knows this, and she says it. The idealization of women
and domestic tasks is just nice talk; what really counts, is power
of arms and strength. Tolkien has tried to eliminate that fact and
to value peaceful societies higher than fighting ones, but this is
just a moralization with no grounds, what he describes is different,
LoTR is a book about a _war_.
 



lewchuk@cs.UAlberta.CA (Michael Lewchuk) went on:
|> 
|> >(Jim Chokey said) [Although Galadriel is]
|> >more powerful than her husband, she defers to him in social settings; 
|> 
|> To me, she seems to be portrayed as much wiser than Celeborn, [...]
|> [...] I was *much* more impressed
|> with her than with Celeborn.  In fact, I got the impression that Galadriel
|> was really "the head of the household".

  There is no contradiction between these two statements. Galadriel, or
rather Tolkien, shows us here how a woman who is more intelligent or
competent (or in this case: in a mysterious, magical way "more powerful")
than her husband may act in society when she nevertheless has to be
"second to him" (officially) just because he is the man. There are countless
examples of this, "the women behind the ruling men", the wife who directs
her husband subtly by submission, etc. ... It is also a common conservative
argument in favor of the traditional gender roles: 'the woman has another
sort of power, the power of agreeing and influencing'...
  But feminism challenges precisely the gender constellation where this
has to be so, where a woman has to stand back behind a man and has to
act through him instead of being able to assume the same autonomy. 
And this is the way this character is treated here. Galadriel
always draws back behind Celeborn who is a much "lesser" elf
than herself, which is also shown, and Michael describes it by being
more impressed with her than with Celeborn.

|> 1.  Tolkien wrote it so that this was a psychological condition (mistake):
|>     depression caused by perceived helplessness leading to suicidal tendencies.
|>     Aragorn states that "unless she receives other help, her spirit will die
|>     even though her body may be healing".  In other words, even though she
|>     was a valiant berserker, her spirit was dying because her soul really
|>     wasn't being nourished by it.  Theoden on the other hand, rose to battle
|>     and his spirit was nourished by it.

  Theoden did "the proper thing to do". Dying on the battle-field in fulfillment
of an oath, perfectly in tune with everything his society expected of him.
For Eowyn, there was a deep conflict between her own wishes and society's
expectations of her (and the opportunities society gave her. Marrying
Aragorn was not one: "too high up"). A very common female conflict. Often
leads to depression.

(In another article:)
|> Eowyn [...] seems to say "I can do what I want,
|> after all, I'm a big girl", when she really is not acknowledging her
|> responsibility, in the name of personal freedom.
|> Her scenes with Faramir involve giving up an isolationist attitude and 
|> start developing a more social attitude.

  Or: She finally accepts the role that the LoTR societies ascribe to
her as a woman. Society may be repressive, but it may still be less strain
to comply with its norms than to continue rebellion. Rebellion is a
common phase to go trough in order to to become a respected member of
society. In this light, one could see her changing her mind as her
final step to maturity, and I think Tolkien _does_ portray it that
way.
  Is the ME world, as it is, "good", and Eowyn just "bad" ("isolationist")
as she does not accept her role? Tolkien, with the course of the
narrative, suggests it. I don't agree (still). I think her change of
mind is a compliance with certain gender assumptions Tolkien had in mind,
and it isn't even psychologically convincing. I heretically fear Eowyn
might have made a very bad housewife.




|> 2.  Tolkien was under no obligation to live up to your expectations for a
|>     positive-feminist piece of literature.

And I am under no obligation to not criticize his work from a feminist
point of view; not because Tolkien was an evil non-feminist, but because
people nowadays read LoTR and often fail to realize the gender-role
assumptions carried on by it.


--
Barbara Maren Winkler                   winkler@zrzsp12.bg.tu-berlin.de
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