From: jamalin@newton.ccs.tuns.ca (Nadeem Jamali)
Subject: Re: Repost: Re: Is Islam equal to Intolearnce and Fascism ?
Organization: Technical University of Nova Scotia, Halifax, N.S.
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 22:52:41 GMT

In article <l9sqmbINN9gj@pageboy.cs.utexas.edu> hyder@cs.utexas.edu (Syed Irfan Hyder) writes:
>In article <1992Aug25.210415.26243@newton.ccs.tuns.ca> jamalin@newton.ccs.tuns.ca (Nadeem Jamali) writes:
>>>In article <l9ktghINNcaa@pageboy.cs.utexas.edu> hyder@cs.utexas.edu (Syed Irfan Hyder) writes:
>
>::Of course. One doesn't necessarily have to call oneself Muslim,
>::unless one also wants to abide by "Islam". 
>::
>::5: A Muslim must be prepared to accept Quran as the whole constitution
>::   of his/her life. He/she is not at liberty to select part of it
>::   which suits and rejects the part that he/she doesnot like:
>::
>::	afa tu'-minoon-a bi baAd ul kitab-i wa tukfaroon-a- bi 
>::        baAd ul kitab ? wa an-tum tutloon-al kitaaba!
>::
>::
>::	Do you want to accpet part of it and reject the other? and
>::        then you claim that you recite the book!
>::
>
>:That's the whole problem with the way you [unacceptable language deleted]
>:The people of Pakistan have an inherent right to self-determination 
>:irrespective of their religious affiliations. 

Ahhhh.... so you found my comments 'Pakistan is not an Islamic colony' so
unacceptable ...  It's unfortunate that saviours of Islam like yourself
have to resort to such tactics...

>
>The actual problem is not with the Muslims of Pakistan who want to
>lead their lives according to what they believe in, namely Islam, but
>with the  (so called) liberals who won't let the masses self-determine
>and implement Islam. These liberal army-buerucrats who always usurp
>peoples right of self-determination and impose Martial laws. Whether
>he is Ayub, Z. A. Bhutto, Zia, or GIK, all belonged to the 
>previliged class of army and bureucrats (ZAB started as Foreign minister
>in Ayub's time). These liberals like their counterparts in Egypt and
>Algeria are too terified to give the right of self-determination
>in Pakistan.
>

Irfan bhai, you're just making statements... no comment on what I said
about people's inherent right to self-determination.

>:And they also have every right
>:to refuse to explain their allegience to your vaguely defined Islam. 
>
>Who is defining himself vaguely? The Muslims who want to live according
>to Islam or the liberal who wants to call himself Muslim but wants
>to live like "secular Westerners". The ambiguity is not with the
>general people but the (so called) intellectuals whose intellectualism
>is  unable to be coherent of what they want.

When did I say that _someone_ is difining himself vaguely?? Must
you twist everything? I referred to the vaguely defined Islam.

>
>:What
>:in the world gives you the insolence to suggest what the people of that
>:country have to do. What gives Islam the right to dictate the people of a
>:country what they are supposed to do???
>
>The majority of Pakistan is Muslim and wants to live like Muslims.
>Isn't this self-determination by the Muslims of Pakistan enough
>justification to demand Islam?

How do you know about the majority of Pakistan? This is the insolence
I am referring to. You think you have a right to decide what the people
want. Have you been to villages of Pakistan, where a large majority of
population lives. I have... Why don't you comment on what I said.

>
>:Does this mean that anyone purporting to be a saviour of Islam has a right
>:to hang the leaders we democratically elect. Does this mean that we lose
>:our rights to be equal citizens of the land that we have live on through 
>:centuries??
>
>No. No one has the right to hang anyone without "due-process of law".
>ZAB was hanged by the courts working in the tradition established
>by ZAB and other elites like Munir & Co. ZAB himself steam-rolled 
>those amendments in the 1973 constitution making the courts puppet
>in the hands of the executive. By the way, ZAB was not democratically
>elected by any stretch of imagination. He lost miserably the 1970
>elections and started his rule as a Civil Martial Law Administrator!

Irfan bhai, the same thing again... twisting facts.. Wasn't Zulfiqar
Ali Bhutto elected by a great majority of the part of Pakistan that he
finally became the Prime Minister of... that is, the current Pakistan? 
But then.... you hardly believe in logic.

>
>It is this mockery of judicial system which ought to be superceded
>by the ultimate justice as enshrined by Islam in Quran and self-determined
>by the Muslims who voted for ML in 1946 under the banner of
>"Pakistan ka Mutlab kiya La illaha illa laah". I am simply
>reminding the elitist governments to fulfill the charter on
>which they swayed the Muslim masses during 1946.
>

Nonsense again Irfan bhai.... How does Islam ensure the "ultimate justice"?
That's why I had said "Pakistan is not an Islamic colony". This assumed
supremeness of Islam has to be challenged.

Moreover, masses of the states that later became
Pakistan didn't know this much Urdu language to shout slogans in Urdu.
Even today, slogans used by most people are in native languages. 
And please don't insult our people's intelligence by saying that they
voted on the basis of such shibboleths...

Nadeem

-- 
Nadeem Jamali                                     jamalin@newton.ccs.tuns.ca
						 
School of Computer Science			  
Technical University of Nova Scotia		  (902)420-7882  
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan