HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: miklg@acuson.com (Michael Goldman )
Subject: Re: World Culture and Western Culture
Organization: Acuson; Mountain View, California
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1992 15:47:26 GMT

panwar@killer.cs.ucla.edu (Ramesh Panwar) writes:

>John McCarthy wrote: 

>> However, for
>> about 500 years, say between 1450 and 1950, almost all significant
>> technological advances were made in the West.  

>Likewise, the term "Western science" is an emotive term that is used
>by the Anglo-Saxons and their descendents to misappropriate all the

	McCarthy didn't use the term Anglo-Saxon (I think), but his
	statements are reminiscent of some racial superiority theories
	of the late 19th century.

        This "Anglo-Saxon" nonsense stems from the 19th century
        racist theories of "survival of the fittest" which I described
        in my post to soc.history on the origins of the Open Door
        policy.  I thought such theories were on the dung-heap of
        history where they belong.
 
        In the 1890's a newspaper columnist ridiculed them through
        the mouth of his fictional character "Mr. Dooley":
 
                "An Anglo-Saxon, Hinnissey is a German that's
                forgot who was his parents... I'm wan iv th'
                hottest Anglo-Saxons that iver come out of
                Anglo-Saxony."
 
        On the German intervention in China (which went far
        beyond treaty ports to virtual colonization):
 
                " 'Twill civilize th' Chinnymen," said
                Mr. Hennesey.
                "  'Twill civilize thim stiff,"  said
                Mr. Dooley.
 
        The logical conclusion to the proposition of superior
        civilization is that it needs to be 'shared' with those
        who are too uncivilized to willingly adopt it.  I.e.,
        Kipling's "White Man's Burden."  Most of us are past
        that.
 
                He:  Do you like Kipling?
 
                She: (giggle)  I don't know - I've never kippled!
 
        - Michael Goldman
 
-- 
"History teaches us that men and nations behave wisely once they have
exhausted all other alternatives." - Abba Eban
	Disclaimer:  All views are solely my own & not the views of Acuson.
	<sun!sono!miklg>  or  [miklg@acuson.com]
Xref: sparky soc.history:8718 soc.culture.celtic:6374 sci.archaeology:2535
From: newt@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Michael Steven Newton)
Newsgroups: soc.history,soc.culture.celtic,sci.archaeology
Subject: Re: Who lived in Great Britain before the Kelts?
Date: 1 Oct 92 07:36:41 GMT
Organization: Glasgow University Computing Science Dept.

ahogan@av8r.uucp (Alicen Hogan) writes:

>In article <26525@dog.ee.lbl.gov> mike@fionn.lbl.gov (Michael Helm) writes:
>> Mark-Jason Dominus writes:
>> >    It seems that the Kelts migrated into Great Britain from the
>> >Continent between 500-100 BC.  Was there an aboriginal people there
>> >before the Kelts?  If so, what happened?  Were they exterminated?
>>
>> I think they have found some evidence that in iron age times
>> some interlopers did show up -- there's a site in northern
>> England, I think, that shows a couple generations of more advanced
>> Continental-style artifacts that gradually disappear in time, which
>> somebody has connected with a historically-attested invasion
>> of Britain by the Belgic(?) tribes.

>I'm going to be incredibly unscientific and cite some old Celtic
><Gaelic> mythology.  In these tales of the past, the Celts state that
>there was a great battle fought between themselves and the De Danaan,
>or the children of some Earth Goddess.  Now, whether these were truely
>magical people or not is for the theologians to figure out, however, I
>do NOT doubt that there was some sort of culture there before the
>Celts.  Knowing the warlike manner of said culture, the Celts probably
>wiped out the other tribe.  <Although the myths say that the Tuatha de
>Danaan disappeared into the hills to live under the earth.>
>-- 

Come on, we're finally getting some intelligent discussion going, don't
revert back to comic strips again.

There are lots of ways of interpreting myths, and one has to take into
account when they were written and by whom (Christian monks).

Obviously there were people in Ireland for thousands of years, but that
doesn't mean that Celtic culture was necessarily obtrustive or that any
other culture had to be "wiped out".  This integralist, evolutionary
stance is what "cumulative Celticity" is all about.

How 'bout an analogy?  If we were archaeologists of the future and we saw
cars suddenly appearing in Europe, would it be fair to say that a
band of conquering car owners wiped out the indigenous cultures and
replaced them with the "car-owning" culture?  That'd be a load of rubbish,
wouldn't it?

-- mn
Xref: sparky soc.history:8738 soc.culture.celtic:6411 sci.archaeology:2551
From: palmm@csc2.essex.ac.uk (Palmer M J)
Newsgroups: soc.history,soc.culture.celtic,sci.archaeology
Subject: Re: ice age British Isles (was Re: pre-Kelt Great Britain)
Date: 2 Oct 92 09:21:21 GMT
Reply-To: palmm@essex.ac.uk (Palmer M J)
Organization: University of Essex, Colchester, UK

In article <1992Sep30.154823.694@nas.nasa.gov> wismith@amelia.nas.nasa.gov (William R. Smith) writes:
>wondering if the Ireland and the other British Isles (if the nomanclature
>is incorrect here, excuse me) were islands during the last ice age
>or were they connected to the Eurpoean mainland?

During the last ice age Britain and Ireland were connected to
the continent. Around 6000 bc Britain was cut of. Ireland was cut of
from the British Isles somewhat earlier at some point during the late last 
glacial (13000 - 8300 bc) or soon after.

This information comes from 'Itroduction to British Prehistory' by
Megaw and Simpson (1984, p.10).

Mike.
From: arf@otter.hpl.hp.com (Andrew Farmer)
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 22:44:37 GMT
Subject: Re: ice age British Isles (was Re: pre-Kelt Great Britain)
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Laboratories, Bristol, UK.
Newsgroups: soc.history


In soc.history, wismith@amelia.nas.nasa.gov (William R. Smith) writes:

> This is slightly off the subject of pre Keltic Ireland, but I was
> wondering if the Ireland and the other British Isles (if the nomanclature
> is incorrect here, excuse me) were islands during the last ice age
> or were they connected to the Eurpoean mainland?

	It was connected if I remember my history lessons correctly.

		arf
From: mike@inti.lbl.gov (Michael Helm)
Newsgroups: soc.history,soc.culture.celtic,sci.archaeology
Subject: Re: Who lived in Great Britain before the Kelts?
Date: 6 Oct 1992 00:00:05 GMT
Organization: N.I.C.E.
Reply-To: mike@inti.lbl.gov (Michael Helm)
NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.3.128.82

Jackie Zucconi writes:
>  Would these Belgic tribes be the famous "beeker people" that's I've 

The Beaker culture was (I think) just before or during the earliest
part of the Bronze Age, & the Belgae are (1st?) written about by Julius
Caesar.  So they are separated by 1500 years or more.  It's possible
they were the same (ala Renfrew) ethnic group.  The incursion I
was speaking of, tho, occurred in Iron Age times if I'm remembering
it correctly.
Newsgroups: soc.history,soc.culture.celtic,sci.archaeology
From: mathers@sibelius.trl.oz.au (Steven Mathers)
Subject: Re: Who lived in Great Britain before the Kelts?
Reply-To: s.mathers@trl.oz.au
Organization: Telecom Research Labs, Melbourne, Australia
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 22:41:53 GMT

In article <1992Sep30.084037.9447@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au>, mongoose@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Conrad Leviston) writes:
|> 	I believe that the precursors to the Celts are referred to as
|> Iberians, who had darker skin. There are also a lot of tombs and stone

I thought the Iberians were down Spain way.  Where do the Picts come
into this?  I think there were also people called Iberians around the
Armenia area.
Newsgroups: soc.history
From: tom@europa.lonestar.org (Tom Kimball)
Subject: Re: Guantanamo Bay
Organization: Moria Mining Guild (BBS) -- Dallas, Texas, USA
Distribution: soc.history
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1992 03:59:11 GMT

In article <HOD.92Sep29181711@amazon.chem.columbia.edu> hod@amazon.chem.columbia.edu (Hod Greeley) writes:
>
>Hi, I don't normally subscribe to this group, but I have a question
>that has been bugging me recently, and this seems like the  best place
>to look for an answer.  Can anyone tell me something about the history
>of the naval reserve at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba?  I'm puzzled.  How is it
>possible that the U.S. has a military base in a country with which we
>have such antagonistic relations?  What role did it play in Bay of
>Pigs, or the Cuban missile crisis?  By the way, what's the Cuban name
>for the Bay of Pigs (the location, not the incident).  Email or post
>replies, as you see fit.  Thanks.
>
>Hod
>hod@cucbs.chem.columbia.edu

The U.S. is the country that liberated Cuba from Spanish rule in
1898 during the Spanish-American War.  We were granted a 99 year 
lease on the base at that time (long before Castro).  I heard somewhere
that we send a rent check for the base to Castro every year but
he never cashes them.

-- 
Tom Kimball  			tom@europa.lerctr.org    
tom@europa.lonestar.org		tom%europa@egsner.cirr.com
Newsgroups: soc.history
From: mike@fionn.lbl.gov (Michael Helm)
Newsgroups: soc.history,soc.culture.celtic,sci.archaeology
Subject: Re: Who lived in Great Britain before the Kelts?
Date: 30 Sep 1992 17:51:31 GMT
Organization: N.I.C.E.
Reply-To: mike@fionn.lbl.gov (Michael Helm)
NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.3.128.60

Conrad Leviston writes:
>	I believe that the precursors to the Celts are referred to as
>Iberians, who had darker skin. There are also a lot of tombs and stone
>markings that predate the Celts. It is also probable that the Iberians

What I think we can say for sure, is that the megalith tombs (I'm
guessing you have them in mind) predate the Celtic _culture_.
It is interesting that these tombs are found scattered over
the western seabord of Europe, in Spain & Morocco for example,
but they're not confined there, there also many in Brittany &
Scandinavia.  

But I don't know of any information about migrations during this time
-- the archaeologists don't seem to have reported much evidence for
any.  Harbison in "Pre-Christian Ireland", does mention that different
skull types are found in early Bronze Age burials (this is just after
or near the end of the megalith period).  This is long (>1000yrs)
before the period we would call "Celtic" tho.  Some have proposed that
Ireland was gradually "Celticized" over hundreds or even thousands of
years, without great upheavals like invasions.  I don't know how that
applies to Britain.

It is true that, for example, Irish mythology has a whole series of
invasions (back & forth between different peoples even), but most of
that comes to us from a medieval book, Lebor Ga/bala, written long
after the events; I don't think we know who wrote LG or exactly what
they had in mind, & in any event we don't know its sources & how
trustworthy they were.  Some archaeologists dismiss it completely
& wish it didn't exist -- I think we should at least be skeptical
for the reasons I gave.
From: stank@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (Stan Krieger)
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Re: Guantonamo Bay
Date: 3 Oct 92 19:15:24 GMT
Article-I.D.: cbnewsl.1992Oct3.191524.26969
Organization: Summit NJ

In article <1992Oct3.033718.1@fnala.fnal.gov> traynor@fnala.fnal.gov writes:
>In article <1992Oct2.181027.22259@lmpsbbs.comm.mot.com>,  (relgov) writes:
>> I have been waiting in interest for an answer to the question posed
>> recently regarding our involvement in Guantonamo Bay, Cuba.  This has also
>> puzzled me over the years. The media never mentions the history of it.  Why
>> do we have a base in Cuba considering our relations?  How long have we been
>> there?  Why are we allowed there?
>Because we have a lease that Mr.Castro doesn't dare transgress.  Why should he?
>We will be gone relatively soon (it was a 99-year lease signed in 1900(?)).  
>That is unless there is a change of government.  Remember, we may be at the 
>canal after 1999 now.

When exactly did Castro shut off the base's water supply in order to force
the U.S. to abandon it?   I remember discussing Gitmo in 7th grade current
events (that would be early 1960), but I also remember a satire of
Castro's shutting off the water on the show That Was The Week That Was,
which would be 1964 or 1965.
-- 
Stan Krieger                 All opinions, advice, or suggestions, even
UNIX System Laboratories     if related to my employment, are my own.
Summit, NJ
smk@usl.com
Xref: sparky soc.history:8707 soc.culture.indian:32681
From: cramer@optilink.UUCP (Clayton Cramer)
Newsgroups: soc.history,soc.culture.indian
Subject: Re: World Culture and Western Culture
Date: 30 Sep 92 17:49:41 GMT
Organization: Optilink Corporation, Petaluma, CA

In article <19764@ector.cs.purdue.edu>, cutchin@cs.purdue.edu (Steve Cutchin) writes:
> In article <JMC.92Sep28214354@SAIL.Stanford.EDU>, jmc@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (John McCarthy) writes:
# |# Motivations were mixed.  Individual desire to make money,
# |# ego and some benevolence.  Even when there was benevolence,
# |# part ot its motivation was a sense of superiority.  However,
# |# the innovations were introduced and were useful, e.g. secular
# |# universities, railroads and a British style judicial system -
# |# even cricket.
# |# 
#     While it is probably accurate to say that many new and beneficial
#     culture concepts were introduced by the conquering of India by
#     the British this in NO WAY mitigates that it was the western cultures
#     view of Indians as inferior, backward and heretical that allowed them
#     to justify in their minds the slaughter of millions of indians in
#     their conquest of India.  Mr McCarthy's EXTREMELY selective view of

MILLIONS of Indians?  Even over the two centuries of British colonialism,
that comes to at least 5000 Indians a year.  There was a rather
famous massacre of unarmed and peaceful Indians around 1919 or 1920 
that played a major part in the loss of British confidence, and the
strengthening of the Indian nationalist movement.  Several hundred 
people were killed in that massacre.  Yet it stands out as one of 
the great atrocities.  Why am I skeptical of "millions of Indians?"

Could someone provide some more data?

# |# John McCarthy, Computer Science Department, Stanford, CA 94305
# |# He who refuses to do arithmetic is doomed to talk nonsense.
#      Obviously the speaking of arithmetic is not a necessary condition
#      for not talking nonsense.
# Steve Cutchin

Hmmm.  Perhaps Mr. Cutchin will indulge us, and do arithmetic to
show that he isn't talking nonsense.



-- 
Clayton E. Cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer  My opinions, all mine!
Bush: War on Drugs, tax cut->bigger deficit.  Clinton: War on Drugs, spending
increase->bigger deficit.  What a great choice.
Newsgroups: soc.history,soc.culture.indian
From: wats@scicom.AlphaCDC.COM (Bruce Watson)
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Sputnik I - 35th anniversary
Date: 5 Oct 92 17:28:04 GMT
Organization: Alpha Science Computer Network, Denver, Co.


35 years ago yesterday, the world's first artificial earth satellite was
launched. Before October 4, 1957 the earth had but one moon. Today
the earth has approximately 7000 moons.
-- 
Bruce Watson (wats@scicom)  Tumbra, Zorkovick; Sparkula zoom krackadomando.
From: mss2@MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Re: World Culture and Western Culture
Date: 6 Oct 92 16:25:01 GMT
Article-I.D.: quads.9210061625.AA24501


>>In article <1992Oct1.224600.17393@nntp.hut.fi> c34657b@saha.hut.fi (Tuomas Viljanen) writes:
>>>where; when mankind discovered iron, it immediately began to forge swords. If
>>>the Chinese had discovered tthe nuclear fission, they surely would have immed-
>>>iately began to build atomic bombs. No need for Western depravity for this.

>OK. The Chinese invented gun-powder, but did not use them in war.

	That turns out not to be the case.  China had war rockets,
cannon, and even primitive firearms by the time of the Mongol
conquest.  (Unfortunately for them, the Mongols were adept at adapting
military technology, and had them as well.)  See Abu-Lughod, _Before
European Hegemony_, which is primarily about the world trade network
prior to the breakup of the Mongol Empire and the subsequent
ascendency of Europe, but also examines the state of Chinese
technology before and during the Yuan Dynasty.

>>If, say, the Chinese had first reached the state
>>of technology and civilization the Europeans were from 1600 onwards, they
>>certainly would have behaved just like the Westerners did.

"China is a sleeping giant" - Napoleon.

	A sleeping giant which has shown a remarkable reluctance to
wake up-- including hitting itself on the head with a hammer to put
itself back to sleep (a fair description of Chinese history at least
between 1911 or so and the 1980's).  With a quarter of the world's
population and vast material resources, it should be trivial to make
China one of the foremost military and economic powers in the world.
It took remarkable skill on the part of its leadership to make it a
second-string power in its own region.  Perhaps next century...

Mike
--
Michael S. Schiffer, LHN, FCS	"Indeed I tremble for my country
mss2@midway.uchicago.edu	 when I reflect that God is just."
mike.schiffer@um.cc.umich.edu	 -- Thomas Jefferson, Notes on
mss2@usite-next.uchicago.edu     Virginia (1784)
Newsgroups: soc.history
From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Subject: Re: "Jehovah" TRIBE OF SPACE CANNIBALS
Organization: Brown University Department of Computer Science
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 00:59:41 GMT

mcelwre@cnsvax.uwec.edu writes:

I knew I was going to get punished for not fasting this Yom-Kippur,
but had no idea it would be sooo bad.

#          But try reading the Old Testament with these things in mind.  
#          For example, read the part about one of the Old Testament 
#          characters, Jacob, I think, WRESTLING WITH GOD, AND WINNING!  

As a matter of fact, he wrestled with an angel, not with God.

#               UN-altered REPRODUCTION and DISSEMINATION of this 
#          IMPORTANT Information is ENCOURAGED. 

The world is waiting breathlessly.

#
#                                   Robert E. McElwaine
#                                   B.S., Physics and Astronomy, UW-EC

you are a good and kind man, Robert, but you have to kiss a Rabbi
on the mouth to know what life is all about.

                                    Daniel Keren
                                    Ph.D., Computer Science
                                    185 pounds, 5 years of Karate training,
                                    also expert in practical Kabbala.
From: zursch@whizkid.wpd.sgi.com (Jeffrey B. Zurschmeide)
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Re: CAU$E$ OF WAR$
Date: 30 Sep 92 18:15:48 GMT
Reply-To: zursch@whizkid.wpd.sgi.com (Jeffrey B. Zurschmeide)
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc.


I suggest you line your hat with tin foil to suppress the mind control messages 
from the orbiting satellites of the Trilateralist-Illuminati-Zionist-Conspiracy.

Drink only distilled water, and eat only uncooked dry lentils purchased from
immigrant grocers from Nepal. (That airplane crash was NO ACCIDENT! Those
lentils are the ONLY SAFE FOOD!)

Sincerely,

JZ
From: mike@fionn.lbl.gov (Michael Helm)
Newsgroups: soc.history,soc.culture.celtic,sci.archaeology
Subject: Re: Who lived in Great Britain before the Kelts?
Date: 29 Sep 92 07:11:35 GMT
Reply-To: mike@fionn.lbl.gov (Michael Helm)
Organization: N.I.C.E.
NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.3.128.60

Mark-Jason Dominus writes:
>    It seems that the Kelts migrated into Great Britain from the
>Continent between 500-100 BC.  Was there an aboriginal people there
>before the Kelts?  If so, what happened?  Were they exterminated?

First, it's unclear when, or even if, that happened.  It may be
that Celtic types migrated to Britain & ran out whoever was already
there; it may be that no Celts, or very small numbers, from the
European mainland personally migrated.   The archaelogists, from
what I learned in a recent class, have had a very hard time
finding any evidence of massive invasion at the time the
"Celtic" culture starts showing up in Britain & Ireland (which
is, incidentally, a little earlier than the dates you cite).
I think they have found some evidence that in iron age times
some interlopers did show up -- there's a site in northern
England, I think, that shows a couple generations of more advanced
Continental-style artifacts that gradually disappear in time, which
somebody has connected with a historically-attested invasion
of Britain by the Belgic(?) tribes.
Newsgroups: soc.history
From: traynor@fnala.fnal.gov
Subject: Re: Guantonamo Bay
Organization: Fermi National Accelerator Lab
Followup-To: soc.history
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1992 09:37:18 GMT
X-Posted-From: fnala.fnal.gov
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In article <1992Oct2.181027.22259@lmpsbbs.comm.mot.com>,  (relgov) writes:
> I have been waiting in interest for an answer to the question posed
> recently regarding our involvement in Guantonamo Bay, Cuba.  This has also
> puzzled me over the years. The media never mentions the history of it.  Why
> do we have a base in Cuba considering our relations?  How long have we been
> there?  Why are we allowed there?
Because we have a lease that Mr.Castro doesn't dare transgress.  Why should he?
We will be gone relatively soon (it was a 99-year lease signed in 1900(?)).  
That is unless there is a change of government.  Remember, we may be at the 
canal after 1999 now.

					-Mike Traynor


-- 
NNN  NN DDDD    Mike Traynor (ND '86)(Rice '93?) |||     Amiga 500 owner   ///
 N N N   D  D   Fermilab PO Box 500 MS 221 E683  |||     w/MMR 7 Meg DRAM ///
 N  NN   D  D   Batavia IL, 60510               //|\\    190 Meg HD   \\\/// 
NN   NN DDDD    (708) 879-6095 [ans. mach.]    /// \\\   14.4Kbps modem\XX/
From: mjd@saul.cis.upenn.edu (Mark-Jason Dominus)
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Who lived in Great Britain before the Kelts?
Date: 28 Sep 92 20:44:44 GMT
Organization: University of Pennsylvania


    It seems that the Kelts migrated into Great Britain from the
Continent between 500-100 BC.  Was there an aboriginal people there
before the Kelts?  If so, what happened?  Were they exterminated?
--

                And for to se, and eek for to be seye
Mark-Jason Dominus 	  			    mjd@central.cis.upenn.edu 
Newsgroups: soc.history,soc.culture.celtic,sci.archaeology
From: wismith@amelia.nas.nasa.gov (William R. Smith)
Subject: ice age British Isles (was Re: pre-Kelt Great Britain)
Organization: NAS, NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 92 15:48:23 GMT

This is slightly off the subject of pre Keltic Ireland, but I was
wondering if the Ireland and the other British Isles (if the nomanclature
is incorrect here, excuse me) were islands during the last ice age
or were they connected to the Eurpoean mainland?



William Smith
Intel, SSD

Newsgroups: soc.history,soc.culture.indian