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Approved-By:  Uma Ramamurthy <uma@ORION.STJUDE.ORG>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.india-d
Date:         Thu, 28 Jan 1993 20:20:06 -0600
From:         Uma Ramamurthy <uma@orion.stjude.org>
Subject:      India-D Digest - Jan 28

India Interest Group Digest Thur, 28 Jan 93       Volume 2: Issue  87

Today's Topics:

      20/20
      60.min/dowry
      Another story of the profound in the simple
      Cricket!!
      Didn't Nehru oppose the Linguistic Division of States? Response
      Does Mr. Barwey exist "in present"?
      Enquiry about Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan books
      Football vs. Cricket
      Good deals to India
      Hatred among Indians????
      India needs no dictators
      Job for VLSI major
      Marriage
      Most racist race -- Response
      Mozzarella cheese
      Multiple entry
      Muslim Personal Law etc.
      Nehru and linguistic division of states
      New Equity Issue - Kamron Laboratories Ltd
      Please contribute more poems
      Reply to Cliffs query on South/North music

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Date: 26 Jan 1993 13:28:17 -0500 (EST)
From: vidya  <nataraj%utcvm.bitnet@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: 20/20

Hi Netters,
Did any of you see 20/20 last sunday evening ? Apparently one of the issues
presented was about dowry burning and female infanticide. We did not see the
program but were wondering if the issue presented was a distorted and
exaggerated version of the actually existing situation.
Dowry related deaths is still one of the many unfortunate social evils of
India, but to make a National Social Evil an International Mockery is yet
another matter.
We were faced with numerous inquisitions and queries about it from our american
counterparts and were hence quite concerned. Again more than the actual
situation we are concerned about the negative publicity that India always seems
to receive.Why does this happen ? No country is without its social and political
evils but why make an issue out of it internationally instead of trying to
resolve it nationally ? Is that the only way India can get its name on the
'news' !! Movies like "Salam Bombay" only tend to worsen the opinion that the
Americans and the  europeans have of the Indians.
The movie Indiana Jones in the Temple of Doom had an awful portrayal of India,
and the sad part of it was that there were many Indians who starred in it. Are
we being over-sensitive or are there others who share the same opinion?
Is there anything that 'WE' as INDIANS can do to reinstall a positive image of
our Beloved Motherland ?
Any suggestions are welcome.I hope this evokes a tremendous response from the
India-netters.
Please feel free to give your opinion to me directly at NATARAJ@UTCVM.BITNET
thank you,
bye,
Vidya.

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jan 1993 13:58:15 -0500 (EST)
From: seeta@hub.eng.wayne.edu (Seetamraju Uday Bhaskar Sarma)
Subject: 60.min/dowry

The Dowry problem will only get worse in india, for the simple
reason that materialistic ambitions are rising faster than anything
else, even inflation.   15 Yrs ago, a standard dowry demand was for
about 40 thousand.  Now that is the minimum, with the standard
going up to atleast 75,000 with a scooter and `basic' family
necessities like golden watch, fridge, color TV etc...

Ever added all these up?  Can U see the list now include a VCR
and a good stereo system, and soon, it might even include a flat
(which is common among the upper middle class).

Materialistic ambitions in collusion with decreasing chances of
a person `making it', purely thru hard work and intelligence
are the single biggest reason, that people are taking the easy way out
for a nice life.

Dowry and Dowry deaths are not related.  In any category U pick, U
will always find fringe elements.  The dowry killers are the fringe
elements of the dowry problem.  Using them as the sample space
will only mean, U are grasping the problem at the wrong end.

The normal man wants dowry because in today's VERY-TOUGH-
to-SURVIVE materialistic world of increasing competition, its
the easiest way to a happy life.  I actually see no difference between the
american credit card life and the indian dowry-funded lifestyles.

The american `charges it' and works to pay it off later.  The indian
`gets it from in-laws' and then works to accumulate an amount for
the next generation (his daughters)...  Every one has a cushy life exactly when
they are capable of enjoying the most -- their youth/early married life.

A feasible eceonomic system I should say.  And always, U will find
a few Ivan Boesky's who will misuse it.   But a major difference lies in that
stock market fringe elements like Sri. Boesky, didnt kill anyone.  But our
fringe elements are....
Concluding ::-  Either, we abolish materialism in india, or we shut up.

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jan 1993 21:10:17 -0600 (CST)
From: Chandra Balachandra <balachan@plains.NoDak.edu>
Subject: Another story of the profound in the simple

Ms. Nandini McClurg, a fellow digest reader, sent me a personal message in
response to the story about Jayalakshmi.  With her kind permission, I am
posting it to India-D, unabridged and without comment.

Chandra.
****************************************************************************
Subject: response to your story
Chandra,
        I recently found out about this news digest and discussions, so
yesterday I decided to subscribe to it. One of the first mail I received
had, among other issues, part I of your story. I throughly enjoyed reading
it and anxiously waited to see part II. The entire time I was reading it,
I kept hearing myself telling a very similar story to my 4 children. I had
tears in my eyes as I got to the end of your story. I lost my dear mother
almost 5 years ago and I miss her very much. She raised 7 children and
like your mother she too became a mother to all our friends. Some of our
friends felt closer to her then to their own parents. We grew up in a
Hindu home, educated in a Catholic school and have very close Muslim and
Buddhists friends. (Some of my Dad's Muslim friends saved his life during
his escape from Pakistan after the partition).
        Ma used to visit the convent quite often and meditate in our
school's tiny chapel. She too had a shrine in our house that was always
covered with brightly coloured flowers and amidst the flowers and the diya
you would find the most unique collections of statues and pictures of
Jesus, Krishna, Sai Baba, Gautam Buddha, Rama, Virgin Mary with baby Jesus
and many hindu deities. I remember waking up early every morning in our
tiny house in Baroda and just quietly watching my mother meditating in
front of the shrine. She spoke Hindi, Gujarati, Punjabi, Sindhi and some
english. We lost my Dad at a very early age and my mother, widowed in her
late thirties, spent every resource she had in educating us to understand
and respect the strenght within ourselves. She moved to US to be close to
my children and created the same environment for my American husband and
all our international friends. Today our family consists of spouses from
all parts of India and US.
        My deepest regards and pranams to all the Jayalakshmis in this world.
May they continue to bring peace and harmony through their gentle power of
motherly love.
        Thank you for such a heart warming story.

Nan McClurg     (Nandini Oza McClurg)

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jan 1993 22:22:45 -0500 (EST)
From: rajvenka@ecn.purdue.edu (Rajagopalan Venkataraman)
Subject: Cricket!!

   On the Jan 26th posting some dork, while comparing American football and
cricket talked about the grace of batsmen like Azhar and Miandad. Grace of
Azhar, yes. But it is definitely news to me that Miandad has grace.(pun
intended). I do definitely know that the value of Miandad as a batsman to
is much more than that of Azhar's to any team. Infact I have often
admired Miandad's ability to score runs. Especially in one dayer's his
way of accumulating runs of every ball is fantastic. But style, comparing
him with Azhar is like comparing the charge of a rhino with the gait of
a deer. Looks like that the posting is from an ardent Pakistani, considering
Waqar et al.

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jan 1993 14:36:54 -0500 (EST)
From: RRC@instruct.gsb.columbia.edu
Subject: Didn't Nehru oppose the Linguistic Division of States? Response

    This is in response to the query (India-D, Jan 25) of Soumya
Chakraborty. Pandit Nehru WAS opposed to the linguistic division of
states, and firmly, fully and unequivocally rejected it in the
Constituent Assembly in 1946.
    The States that India had until 1952 were Provinces, i.e. U.P. was
the United Provinces, C.P. were the Central Provinces and Cooch-
Behar, the Princely States were autonomous States or became part of
provinces. For example, former princely states like Limbdi and
Makrana became part of the Rajputana province. The same was true for
Saurashtra, or elsewhere.
    The problem arose with the Presidencies that became provinces,
since British India was administered through a system of Provinces,
Presidencies and Independent States with the Crown having suzerainty
over them (something I won't go into now). Now, independent India
dissolved the Presidencies (Bombay, Delhi, Calcutta and Madras) and
made them either merge into Provinces (Delhi into U.P. and Calcutta
into Bengal) or gave them the status of States. The State of Bombay
covered Vidarbha, Marathwada, the Konkan and parts of present-day
Gujarat.
    Similarly, the Madras Presidency covered present-day Tamil Nadu,
and present-day Andhra Pradesh. Maybe that's the origin of the term
Madrassi to denote all South Indians, because up until the linguistic
division, Madras covered over 60% of Southern India, with the
Principalities of Mysore, South Kanara, Cochin and Malabar making up
the rest.
    In 1954, Potti Sriramulu, a well-known Gandhian, went on a fast
unto death for the linguistic division of the State of Madras into
Andhra and Tamil Nadu. Nehru was opposed to it tooth and nail, and
refused to budge because he rightly foresaw the tension that this
would create. However, Potti Sriramulu died, and with it, a wave of
violence broke out across the Madras Presidency. Bowing to pressure,
Pt. Nehru signed the executive order for the Reorganization of States
Act, 1956. So was created the first linguistic State: Andhra Pradesh.
    This, of course was followed by a number of States, the last of
which was Maharashtra in 1960. The last state to hold out was Punjab,
which split in 1967 into Punjab and Haryana. The only multilingual
states that exist any longer in India are Karnataka (largely the
territory of the Principality of Mysore) and Gujarat. And see how
well they've done, while the rest of us bicker to death.

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jan 1993 15:09 -0500 (CDT)
From: <@cunyvm.cuny.edu:POSTMASTER@FNAL.BITNET>
Subject: Does Mr. Barwey exist "in present"?

Mr Barwey,

    Seems like we Hindus, being so well versed with MAYA theory knew all
that is there to know about the theory of relativity a couple of thousands
years before Einstein.  I must admit that it takes a real genius to make
a connection between the two the way you did.  But alas, there is no
paradox in it.  There is no flaw in your "scientific logic" because it
comes nowhere close to being "logic", far less "scientific".  First of all,
strictly speaking, "present" is not a scientific term in the sense you
have used it.  In some loose sense, one may imagine it as being a point
in 4-dimensional space-time, namely the origin of a frame of reference.
By definition, a point has no finite measure.  Your body is not a point.
So, to argue whether or not it exists in present, is non-sensical.

Dhiman Cakraborty.

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jan 1993 15:35:28 -0800 (PST)
From: Frank Conlon <conlon@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Enquiry about Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan books

Mr. Mahesh Bagade asks in the Jan. 22 Digest about obtaining Bharatiya
Vidya Bhavan books.  I do not know whether there is a B.V.B. office or
official representative in North America.

However, I would suggest that one could contact South Asia Books, P. O.
Box 502, Columbia, Missouri.  They do have a telephone and maybe a FAX
number also, but I cannot lay hands on that information right now.

In any case, I can recommend South Asia Books highly as an energetic and
broad-ranging source for publications from India.

Frank Conlon

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jan 1993 20:53:36 -0600 (CST)
From: psahasra@unmc.edu (Parag V. Sahasrabudhe)
Subject: Football vs. Cricket

Hello!

Here is a part of posting by Fayaz Qureshi:
==>
Kickoffs, Field goals and Punts can never compare with the sheer elegance and
grace of batsmen like Azhar and Miandad and the pace and skill of bowlers like
                      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Wasim and Waqar.  How many of you will back me up on that?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I wholeheartedly agree with the statement. But, don't you think this is
biased? Don't you think there are equally good or even better players other
than these who deserve to be mentioned here?

Parag Sahasrabudhe

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jan 1993 14:42:16 -0500 (EST)
From: yhiryur@ENG.CLEMSON.EDU (yeshonath hiryur)
Subject: Good deals to India

Dear netters,
I will be going to India this summer and most probably in the first week of
May.  I would like to receive information about any good deals for this sumeer.
If anybody has information on agents offering concessions for the coming
summer, I would like the agent's name and phone number.

Anxiously awaiting replies and thanking in advance,

Yeshonath Hiryur

------------------------------

Date: Mon Jan 25 16:08:19 EST 1993
From: aataneja@cs.mtu.edu
Subject: Hatred among Indians????

This is nothing, in international parties I have noticed Indian girls ignoring
indian guys, but dancing in fashions worse(or better..!) than American girls
with American guys ... it is definately sickning.

Anurag.

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jan 1993 13:18:06 -0600 (CST)
From: anil peter <anil@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu>
Subject: India needs no dictators

I could'nt agree more with what Vishwamitra had to say. The command and
control economy that we inherited as part of the legacy of socialism just
does not work.
The logic underlying the command and control system that we had in India
is based on the premise that there are scarce resources, and that to
allocate these resources to maximize social welfare, government
intervention is called for.
However, countries like Japan have shown beyond a shadow of doubt, that in
this the information age that it is not natural resources that a nation
posesses is not important. Increasingly,it is human capital that is
making the difference between the developed and developing nations.
So clearly it is time to abandon those old socialist dogma, and adopt a
market based system.

Anil Peter

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jan 1993 15:15:02 -0800 (PST)
From: ashok@pico.sps.mot.com (Ashok Patel)
Subject: Job for VLSI major

Hi friends,

There are two openings in my company (Pico Design Inc.)

1. Part time Student Assistant:

You should be a student in bay area. It is 20Hr Job. You will be assisting
VLSI design groups in schematic capture, simulations etc.  We are designing
exclusively for Motorola. You need to have proper work authorization.

2. Full time Design Engineer:

BS/MS EE with 2 years experience in VLSI design. This opening was advertized
in San Jose Mercury News, couple of weeks back.

If you are interested, you can send me your resume within a week. My address is:

Ashok Patel
3900 Moorpark Ave.#37
San Jose, CA-95117

Good Luck,

Ashok

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jan 1993 14:10:16 -0500 (EST)
From: chinna <SCHINNAK%UTCVM.bitnet@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Subject: Marriage

Hi Netters,
I have a suggestion to make. India-D net could be an ideal source for the many
people looking at the prospect of getting married. I find many of my friends
who are interested in getting married and India-d net could be really useful
for the same purpose.
India abroad and other such news-magazines publish matrimonial advertisements
but I feel that India-d net would reach out to a wider spectrum of eligible
YOUTH of India. What are your views on this matter ? I would really welcome any
suggestions on how this can be implemented.
For many of us, our parents are looking out for a life-partner for us,but won't
finding someone for OURSELVES be good?
Thanking you in anticipation,
bye,
Chinna.

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jan 1993 19:12:36 -0500 (EST)
From: RRC@instruct.gsb.columbia.edu
Subject: Most racist race -- Response

    I don't think that Krishna's niece (Jan 25) or most of us get the
point about racism at all: Race is arbitrary. In the U.S., even
Indians have been considered white (check out the Dixit vs. State of
California, 1921). In England, however, never. And certainly
not in South Africa. In the latter country, Japanese were, but Chinese
were not allowed into the Pass-Law sections of white South Africa.
Make sense out of that!
    So what is this racism that we are talking about? It is the
xenophobic basis of Western nationhood. This is a culture obsessed
with laws and rules, and into pigeonholing the World in their own
image. And, good morning, so are we. Only thing is, we didn't ever
venture forth to cut the World's throat, we were too busy slitting our own.
    Let's look at the basis for our nationhood: Indian nationhood is
only an idea. The real nationhood that we have are clan and
family. And what are our clans and our families: Our nations are our
religions, our subclassifications, our varnas, and, finally, our
eternal obsession: our families. If we are Muslims, we are Sunni or
Shia or Dawoodi Bohra or whatever. If we are Hindus it's our Varna,
our Jati, our Kula, our Kutumba, our fathers, our cousins. Ours is
the only culture in the World that has the ridiculous concept of
cousin "brothers and sisters". Well, that's our nationality: our
family. And yes, nations ally, and nations fight. Because nations
have interests. Just as we do, at the family, caste and "Community"
level.  Which is why we have all our groupings. Where this falls
apart, another, broader concept of nation comes into play.
     To underscore this point, the racism of Europe with the Northern
and Western Europeans at the apex, and the Eastern Europeans and
Mediterraneans at the bottom falls into ruin in the United States,
where all these "races" ally into one so called "white" race, where
economic and political alignments make it easier for whites to be
mobile. So, the moot point is that this racism thing is
ARBITRARY. It is evil, and it's wrong, but it is NOT the basis of
Indian society.
    So tell your niece, yes, Communal, Casteist, and Language
Chauvinists we may be, ( and we ought to be embarrssed to
death about these things), but RACIST WE ARE NOT, because race as race
never was and is not the basis of our identity.

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jan 1993 16:43 -0600 (CST)
From: Vani <VANI@KSUVM.KSU.EDU>
Subject: Mozzarella cheese

    Regarding Mozzarella cheese, used in pizza making...
    To the best of my knowledge mozzarella cheeses made in US and European
countries do contain animal enzyme rennin.  In commercial cheese making
rennin is commonly used in the form of a crude extract, paste or powder
[called rennet] to clot milk.
    Rennin being a animal enzyme has however, been banned in India,
for usage for religious reasons ... this led to the use of microbial
and plant enzymes.
    Rennin usage is unavoidable -- for it produces superior quality cheese,
and is rated above enzymes from microbial or plant sources.
Processing conditions of cheese -- inactivate rennin in the end produt.
    I hope this info helps.. please, this is in no attempt to discourage
cheese lovers!

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jan 1993 13:11 -0800 (PST)
From: gna@vardhan.intel.com
Subject: Multiple entry

Hi
   One good news for the people who have had multiple entry stamped on
their passports is they need not go out of the country. In my case
I had a mulitple entry and it expired. Then I talked with my lawyer and
he sent it to Washington main immigration office and got it multipled.
I think it costs $200 (My company paid (-:)).

   For people who do not have it :
   I went to Vancouver, Cannada which is in North West about 6 hours of
driving from Portland, Oregon.
1. They do not give appointments by telephone.
2. You have to personally and get a appointment.
3. Appointments are given only on Friday for the next week.
4. Appointments are given only for 1 week advance.
5. So you go get your appointment and come back.
6. Appointment day is not negotiable unless you have a crying baby
        on your side to invoke pity from them.
7. Next time you go they take your passport and ask you to me some other
        day (may not be the next day) to collect it.
8. You cannot and should not leave Cannada without the passport.
9. In that way they promte tourism. Fo rthe next couple of days you
        are stuck their. Go to Victoria. Hotel rates are cheaper their.
10. The third time they give your passport with Multi entry stamped (Hopefully)
11. Visitor visa is a must to visit Canada. Dont go without one.
12. If you are travelling by car dont forget to endorse your Car insurance.
Remember the insurance is valid is not valid in Canada. You can get a ticket!
13. Carry all original immigration papers. Carry cash.

   As Noah said:                "Go forth and multiply!!"

good luck
ananda vardhana

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jan 1993 18:40:39 -0800
From: ajay@cgl.ucsf.edu
Subject: Muslim Personal Law etc.

Hello Folks,

    i have been reading (maybe glancing) all these posts on "One country
one civil law". This is so patently absurd ... i guess its strength
comes from the following set of arguments:
1. It is atleast pragmatic to believe in nations (country).
2. If so, then we need to keep it together.
3. i seem to like people who are like me and fight with everyone else.
4. Therefore, the way to keep a country together is to have everyone
living in it think/act alike (at the very least attempt to do this as
far as possible---with some "obvious" exceptions that may be hard to
define but could be agreed upon).
5. Ergo ... we need to impliment one personal law for everyone in the
country.

    May i posit that concluding point 4 from point 3 is not easy and/or
simple or obvious. The problem is "the people i like are NOT completely
like me---they are only partly like me" and similarly "the people i do
not like are NOT completely unlike me". Therefore, even if we make all
people follow the SAME personal law ... we would still have "some set
(perhaps different now) of people i like and others i do not".

    Another point, the measure of "freedom" in a society should be (i
suggest) based on the number of differences it (at the very least)
tolerates.  Since there is nothing called a Hindu (this may not be so
true of other religions ... but is definitely more true for Hinduism),
i do not understand the existence of ONE personal law for Hindus.

    In fact we should have as many personal laws as possible. This simple
expedient will take away all conveivable problems emanating from the
distinctions based on differences in personal law.
---ajay

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jan 1993 12:50:39 -0500 (CDT)
From: Ramsundar L <thssrxl@iitmax.acc.iit.edu>
Subject: Nehru and linguistic division of states

Hai netters,

Nehru didn't oppose the linguistic division of states. Infact he was the first
one to succumb to the pressures of Mountbatten and Jinnah to liberate Pakistan.
That was primarily due to some involvement of Lady Mountbatten too!!.

Those who opposed the linguistic division of states are C Rajagopalachari,
Sardar Vallabhai Patel. I really do not know for what reasons did Nehru not
agree to such a set up.

I suggest all those interested to read a novel named FREEDOM AT MIDNIGHT by
Larry Collins and another author in this regard.

L Ramsundar

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jan 1993 15:14:01 -0500 (EST)
From: Sunita George <SMGEOR01@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU>
Subject: New Equity Issue - Kamron Laboratories Ltd

This is for the benefit for all those of you who are active on the
Indian Stock exchange. I have received application forms for NEW
EQUITY ISSUE of KAMRON LABORATORIES LIMITED. This is an existing,
profit making company in Gujarat. The company turned public in 1989.
It's in a growth market- foumulations, which include Tablets, Capsules
and Liquids. The company will also start manufacturing small volume
injactables and I.V. fluids. The company maintains standards as per
WHO. Minimum application= 500 shares @ "par" Rs.10 each= Rs. 5,000
by 1) NRE account from any Bombay bank, 2) Indian Repee draft purchased
from any U.S. bank drawn on any bank in Bombay.
       If you need these NRI preferential quota forms, please write back
directly to me with your address and phone number - IMMEDIATELY. Last
date for closing is Febuary 1st, 1993. ..Pradeep Georg ..

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jan 1993 14:13 -0600 (CST)
From: vnt@engr.uark.edu (TALLADIVEDULA VENKAT NARA)
Subject: Please contribute more poems

This is in response to the poem contributed by Srinivasa Surapanani. It was
indeed great reading thro' the poem. I would like to read more of such poems
in this net and I would like to request our net users to contribute more of
poems.
Bye

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jan 1993 14:24:06 -0500 (EST)
From: seeta@hub.eng.wayne.edu (Seetamraju Uday Bhaskar Sarma)
Subject: Reply to Cliffs query on South/North music

Anand (From : gna@vardhan.intel.com) writes . about North/South music...

His is quite vague.  But I guess he likes the khyaal style better than the
dhrupad etc...  and the `mahaaraajapuram style'' better than the ultra-
conservative styles in carnatic samgeetam...

I personally relish vilambit laya (slow tempo -- Right?) where every swara
is slowly elaborated.  I just  love smt.kishori amonkar's music.  (check out her
CD containing sampoorNa malkouns from Music India).

But anand was dead right in mentioning that bhaava-imbued performances
are wonderful to listen to : I put mangaLampalli baala_muraLi_kRshna on
top when it comes to that...   The pitaamaha Sri. semmanguDi is wonderful too.
(They are supposed to be at loggerheads, with seroius differences though).
One of the best I have heard so far are Dr. baala_muraLi_kRshna's rendition of
mahaa_kavi kshEtrayya gEyaalu & raamadaasu kiirtanaas (all telugu).

A lot of people consider music to be good if they can relish it while it plays
in the background and they are busy reading a newspaper.  That's why classical
music is not a popular choice nowadays.  Ever tried liking classical music while
listening to it in a noisy environment.  I need absolute quiet --- mostly late
night.

------------------------------

End of India Interest Group Digest
**********************************
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