HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: bmr@retiree.cis.ufl.edu (Benedict Rafanello)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.modula2
Subject: Re: Is Modula-2 dead?
Date: 27 Aug 92 18:35:44 GMT
Reply-To: bmr@retiree.cis.ufl.edu (Benedict Rafanello)
Organization: U of Florida. Computer Science Dept.

In article <714374380snx@black.demon.co.uk>, tchannon@black.demon.co.uk (Tim Channon) writes:
|> >Today Modula-2 to me seems to be dying: Vendors are vanishing and most of the
|> >world (i.e. the Intel-World) is using C++. And in 18 months we will have a
|> >wonderful standard, but nobody will care ("Modula-2? We are using C++").
|> >So what is the presence and the future of Modula-2? And who ist really using
|> >Modula-2 (no universities please, just the real world)?
|> 
|> A new shareware comms program (Deputy) for the IBM PC compatible was  released 
|> this month. The extant Odyessey comms program is also written largely in M2.
|> Both are very good but alas I did hear one grumble 'I won't use it because 
|> it's written in Pascal-like'!!! (if it's written in C _I_ look for the weak 
|> typing bugs 8-)
|> 
|> Ok, so the above is not the real world. Hearsay is that there are moves from 
|> Ada to Modula2 by major players but nailing names is not easy. People seem 
|> very guarded in their admission, me included.
|> 
     (Stuff deleted)
|> 
|> Prejudice! 
|> 
|>   TC. 
|>     E-mail: tchannon@black.demon.co.uk or tchannon@cix.compulink.co.uk
|>                                 

After talking to Stony Brook Software and Multiscope, I found out that the
Multiscope debuggers are written in Modula-2 (using a compiler written by
Stony Brook and now sold as Multiscope Modula-2 V4.0).  I also talked to 
JPI and was told that their entire product line, except for the C and C++
libraries, is written in Modula-2, including their Dos extender.  Also, in
BYTE there was an interview with the president of JPI who said that in
Europe Modula-2 outsells C by a margin of 2 to 1.  Several
of the national laboratories  and NASA use Modula-2 and their was even an
article about what they were doing with Modula-2 in Dr. Dobb's Journal.

Modula-2 isn't dead yet, and looks to be doing well in Europe.  Maybe this
country will wake up and the "C" craze the will pass. :)

Ben
Newsgroups: comp.lang.modula2
From: apj@cs.sun.ac.za (Andries Dippenaar)
Subject: Looking for a reference
Organization: University of Stellenbosch
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 18:45:31 GMT

A short while back, somebody mentioned that Hans-Peter Moessenboeck has 
published a paper in the ACM SIGplan (I think).  It relates to some new 
wisdom about code sequences.  The article was mentioned in the passing and 
my local newskeeper has expired it before I could grab the reference.  Has 
somebody still got it lying around and could you forward it to me, or, even 
better, is it possible to get the electronic text from somewhere (the 
publications take ages to arrive this side of the pond)?

Thanks 1.0E6,
Andries
***********************************************************************
*       /|~~\ * APJ Dippenaar        * "If you wanna make the world a *
*     /__|__/ * apj@sunvax.sun.ac.za *  better place, take a look at  *
*   /    |    * Univ of Stellenbosch *  yourself and make a change."  *
* /   \__|    * South Africa         *             -- Michael Jackson *
***********************************************************************
Newsgroups: comp.lang.modula2
From: johnh@macadam.mq.edu.au (John Haddy)
Subject: Apology
Organization: Macquarie University, School of Mathematics, Physics, Computing and Electronics
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 22:13:55 GMT

Sorry about my previos post (re acronyms and abbreviations). It was supposed to
be destined for sci.electronics.

Still, any response from this group would be appreciated.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

      |  _  |_   _   |_|  _   _|  _|              Electronics Department
    |_| (_) | | | |  | | (_| (_| (_| \/           School of MPCE
    ---------------------------------/-           Macquarie University
                                                  Sydney, AUSTRALIA 2109

    Email: johnh@mpce.mq.edu.au, Ph: +61 2 805 8959, Fax: +61 2 805 8983

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: andrea@ESSEX.STFX.CA (John Andrea)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.modula2
Subject: Re: Is Modula-2 dead?
Date: 26 Aug 92 18:22:14 GMT
Reply-To: Modula2 List <INFO-M2%UCF1VM.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU>
Distribution: world
Organization: The Internet

The OO language from Bertrand Meyer called Eiffel uses C as a glorified
assembler.

I wish that it would take over the OO market to replace C++
But i once also wished that Modula-2 would replace C

John Andrea
andrea@essex.stfx.ca
From: s862976@yallara.cs.rmit.OZ.AU (Donovan T Baarda)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.modula2
Subject: Oberon/modula2/modula3/eiffel
Summary: Comparing Object oriented languages
Keywords: Object modula-2 modula-3 eiffel oberon
Date: 2 Sep 92 03:26:29 GMT

Does any one know how the languages oberon, modula-3, and eiffel compare?
I've been using JPI modula-2 with limited object oriented features, and 
need something better

Thanx in advance

ABO


Newsgroups: comp.lang.modula2
From: dzabel@cs.tu-berlin.de (Dirk Zabel)
Subject: Re: FST is alive and well
Organization: Technical University of Berlin, Germany
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 10:22:40 GMT

In article <cspt.30.715505454@giraffe.ru.ac.za> cspt@giraffe.ru.ac.za (Prof. P. Terry) writes:

>[citing Roger Carvalho]
>[...] I just got back from my sabbatical (6 weeks during which I
>created m-2 v3.0).
>
>I will release the new compiler Sep 8 (still doing documentation).
>
>Besides telling you the location of runtime errors as
>module/line, the new compiler supports objects -- virtual methods
>and single inheritance. That is all!
>
>I decided to release this compiler to find out if there is still
>any interest in Modula-2 out there. If the response is
>reasonable, I will do a debugger (everyone wants one!). If not...
>goodbye FST!

But the ONE enhancement which would make the difference between a
nice toy and a serious tool seems still to be missing: code & data 
space > 64 K FOR EACH SINGLE MODULE. While this may not be a problem
if you develop new code (at least not the 64 K maximum code size per
module), it becomes nearly impossible to port existing software from
unix (writtten using the Mocka compiler, in my case) which does not
suffer from these restrictions!

Sorry, as long as this problem remains, FST Modula does not help me --
if it is solved, I would like to get a copy and happily pay the 
registration fee.

In the meantime: Is there any other Modula-Compiler for MS-DOS (may
well require a 386) which does not not have those infamous 64 K -
limits? I don't have experiences with Topspeed or Logitech, but have
been told they are not better in this respect.

(slightly disappointed, since generally I like FST Modula)

        Dirk

Newsgroups: comp.lang.modula2
From: munk@prl.philips.nl (Harm Munk)
Subject: Re: Is Modula-2 dead? 
Organization: Philips Research Laboratories Eindhoven, Netherlands
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 11:20:02 GMT

tchannon@black.demon.co.uk (Tim Channon) writes:

>>Today Modula-2 to me seems to be dying: Vendors are vanishing and most of the
>>world (i.e. the Intel-World) is using C++. And in 18 months we will have a
>>wonderful standard, but nobody will care ("Modula-2? We are using C++").
>>So what is the presence and the future of Modula-2? And who ist really using
>>Modula-2 (no universities please, just the real world)?

>A new shareware comms program (Deputy) for the IBM PC compatible was  released 
>this month. The extant Odyessey comms program is also written largely in M2.
>Both are very good but alas I did hear one grumble 'I won't use it because 
>it's written in Pascal-like'!!! (if it's written in C _I_ look for the weak 
>typing bugs 8-)

>Ok, so the above is not the real world. Hearsay is that there are moves from 
>Ada to Modula2 by major players but nailing names is not easy. People seem 
>very guarded in their admission, me included.

>If asked I tend to be guarded if someone asks what language was used to code 
>a program. With a lot of my stuff that would be answered 'Assembler and 
>Forth', perhaps leaving out mention of the latter or just saying 'running 
>under Forth'. Commercially Forth is often not acceptable, and unfortunately 
>Modula2 can suffer a little in the same way.

>Prejudice! 

>  TC. 
>    E-mail: tchannon@black.demon.co.uk or tchannon@cix.compulink.co.uk
>                                

If people think that real programs should be written in C or C++, then let's
stop developing native Modula 2 compilers. Instead, we should have compilers
that compile to C or C++. If we do that, we use C (and C++ ?) for the purpose
that it was developed for: glorified assembly ;-).

And if asked in which language our products are written, we can say that the
code is in C or C++.

+----------------------------------------+------------------------------------+
| Harm Munk                              | Building WAY 11                    |
| Philips Research Laboratories          | P.O. Box 80 000                    |
| Knowledge Based Systems                | 5600 JA  Eindhoven                 |
|                                        | The Netherlands                    |
| #include <standard.disclaimer>         | tel. +31 40 74 46 59               |
|                                        | email: munk@prl.philips.nl         |
+----------------------------------------+------------------------------------+
Newsgroups: comp.lang.modula2
From: stevef@bony1.bony.com (Steve Faiwiszewski)
Subject: Re: Logitech Modula 2 on the VAX
Organization: Lost in NYC
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 92 22:14:00 GMT

In article <1992Aug18.123535.147965@okcadm> gee@okcadm.okanagan.bc.ca writes:
>We have adopted Logitech Modula 2, as distributed by Terra Datentechnik,
>running on a VAX for our programming courses. In experimenting with it,
>we have found a number of "features" or bugs, if you prefer. 
>

What are these "features" or bugs?

>Can someone with experience with this compiler comment on its good and/or
>bad points?
>

We've been using Terra's compiler quite extensively for many years
(before it was even Logitech's).  We currently use ver 4.1-2 and are
quite happy with it (and no, it's not the latest version).  I believe
there are indeed a couple of quirks (such as with MIN and MAX), but
all pretty minor, with easy workarounds.


>Rick Gee
>Department of Computer Science
>Okanagan University College
>Kelowna, BC
>Canada
>
>gee@admin.okanagan.bc.ca


	- Steve -
-- 
Internet: stevef@bony1.bony.com   |  ____________________________
bang : {uupsi,uunet}!bony1!stevef | / If cows could fly, everyone \
                                  ||| would carry an umbrella     ||
  Opinions? What opinions?        | \_____________________________/
From: greg.vigneault@bville.gts.org (Greg Vigneault) 
Newsgroups: comp.lang.modula2
Subject: CODE! PLEASE!
Date: 23 Aug 92 11:09:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Baudeville BBS - Toronto, Canada 416-283-0114/6059* *v32bis/HST
Reply-To: greg.vigneault@bville.gts.org (Greg Vigneault) 

 In message-ID <16937.2A8EC01C@puddle.fidonet.org>
 Subj: CODE! PLEASE!
 Jai.Braatz@p1.f401.n208.z1.fidonet.org (Jai Braatz) writes...

JB> I've asked this here several times before, and I seem to never
  > get a response.  Is it my end? Can someone post small but
  > complete pieces of Modula-2 code (like a hello world program
  > and something that reads in numbers from a file or something)
  > for me to look at as an example? PLEASE?

(*****************************************************************)
 MODULE Hello;

 FROM InOut     IMPORT  WriteCard, WriteLn, WriteString;

 VAR  loopc     : CARDINAL;
      anystring : ARRAY [0..16] OF CHAR;

 BEGIN
        anystring := " world!"; (* string assignment             *)

        FOR loopc := 1 TO 20    (* write the string 20 times     *)
            DO
                WriteCard( loopc, 2 );      (* loop count        *)
                WriteString( " Hello," );   (* a string constant *)
                WriteString( anystring );   (* a string variable *)
                WriteLn;                    (* new line          *)
            END;
        (* do it 20 more times, using WHILE                      *)
        WHILE ( loopc > 0 )
            DO
                WriteCard( loopc, 2 );      (* loop count        *)
                WriteString( " Hello," );   (* a string constant *)
                WriteString( anystring );   (* a string variable *)
                WriteLn;                    (* new line          *)
                DEC( loopc );               (* count down        *)
            END;
 END Hello.
(*****************************************************************)


(*****************************************************************)
 MODULE ReadNumber;

 FROM InOut     IMPORT  ReadCard, Write, WriteCard,
                        WriteLn, WriteString;

 VAR  aCard, loopc  : CARDINAL;

 BEGIN
        loopc := 1;
        REPEAT
            WriteString( "Enter a number (99..199): " );
            ReadCard( aCard );
            WriteLn;
            INC( loopc );
        UNTIL (aCard >= 99) AND (aCard <= 199) OR (loopc > 5);

        IF (loopc > 5)     (* 5 unsuccessful tries? *)
            THEN
                WriteString( "You failed the 99..199 test!" );
                Write( 7C );    (* beep *)
            ELSE
                WriteString( "Thanks, you entered " );
                WriteCard( aCard, 1 );
                WriteLn;
            END;

 END ReadNumber.
(*****************************************************************)

 Greg_

 Aug.23.1992.Toronto.Canada.        greg.vigneault@bville.gts.org
From: mdlcpgs@LHN.GNS.CRI.NZ ("Phil Scadden, Scadden Research")
Newsgroups: comp.lang.modula2
Subject: Oberon-2 Compiler
Date: 27 Aug 92 02:10:03 GMT
Reply-To: Modula2 List <INFO-M2%UCF1VM.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU>
Distribution: world
Organization: The Internet
X-Unparsable-Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 10:47:58 NZST

>    How interested would you be: (not at all, moderately, extremely)
extremely
>    What would you consider a fair price: (<$100, $100 <= x <= $250, >$250)
$100
>    Would price be a deciding factor in a purchase?
Well I'm not going to pay $250. However reliability and code effeciency would
be at least as important.
>    Would you be less interested if it required a separate linker?
Nope, prefer separate linker, especially MS compatible
>    How interested would you be in an Oberon-2 to C++ translator?
Zilch, yuck, not at all. Who wants to debug c++ code, let alone translated
code.
>    How interested would you be in an Oberon-2 to Ada translator?
Even less, see above.
>
>    Please describe why you are (or are not) interested in Oberon-2.  Also,
>    please describe why you would want to have an Oberon-2 compiler.
Using OberonM as a possible replacement for M2 and now that have Processes and
Semaphores more or less under control, it looks like a useful beast. Since
the Ada-2 faction killed M2, Oberon looks like best option for souls not
wanting to use C-sick or C-very sick.
Newsgroups: comp.lang.modula2
From: seurer@rchland.vnet.ibm.com (Bill Seurer)
Subject: Re: FST is alive and well
Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1992 15:35:31 GMT
Reply-To: BillSeurer@vnet.ibm.com
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM Rochester

In article <1992Sep3.141954.17083@jupiter.sun.csd.unb.ca>, fellows@jupiter.sun.csd.unb.ca (David M. Fellows CS) writes:
|> Anyone using any system to produce modules with a *code* size >64K
|> per module should take a very critical look at their program's 
|> modularity.  Data size is a different matter.

I often see very large procedures.  Usually they are initializing 
large arrays and are often generated by some other tool.  Breaking apart 
these sorts of procedures is very artificial.

- Bill Seurer     Language and Compiler Development      IBM Rochester, MN
  Internet: BillSeurer@vnet.ibm.com    America On-Line: BillSeurer@aol.com
Newsgroups: comp.lang.modula2
From: stevef@bony1.bony.com (Steve Faiwiszewski)
Subject: Re: Is Modula-2 dead?
Summary: Modula-2 alive and well!
Organization: The Bank of New York
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 92 18:33:59 GMT

In <1992Aug20.134358.25702@informatik.uni-bremen.de>
        ms@lehre11.informatik.Uni-Bremen.DE (Martin Schroeder) writes:
> Today Modula-2 to me seems to be dying: Vendors are vanishing and
> most of the world (i.e. the Intel-World) is using C++. And in 18
> months we will have a wonderful standard, but nobody will care
> ("Modula-2? We are using C++").  So what is the presence and
> the future of Modula-2? And who ist really using Modula-2 (no
> universities please, just the real world)?

We here at the Bank of New York have been using Modula-2 on the VAX
for quite a few years.  We first purchased the compiler from Hamburg,
and later upgraded to more recent versions by Logitech, and then Terra
Datentechnique.

We have many telecommunication applications which are responsible for
processing funds transfers and many other kinds of financial
transactions.

Two of the more important requirements we have a for our software:

1) Correctness and integrity.  No matter how fast a telecommunication
link is, it better be correct when it's responsible for processing
millions of dollars.  Modula-2 proved quite worthy, by trapping stupid
errors which C will gladly accept.

2) Ease of maintenance.  In this business, things change often, and
different programmers might be maintaining different parts of an
application.  Again, Modula-2 - with type and version checking accross
modules - worked out beautifully.

3) Performance.  Our Modula-2 applications are just as efficient as
anything else we've seen written in an HLL.  On the VAX, M2 gives us
low level access, as well as a seamless interface to other languages,
libraries, etc.

I'd say M2 has been a great success here at the bank.  However, we are
looking forward to the future, and have begun looking into OOPL,
specifically Eiffel.

	- Steve -
-- 
Internet: stevef@bony1.bony.com   |  ____________________________
bang : {uupsi,uunet}!bony1!stevef | / If cows could fly, everyone \
                                  ||| would carry an umbrella     ||
  Opinions? What opinions?        | \_____________________________/
From: g_dotzel@tron.gun.de (Guenter Dotzel)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.modula2
Subject: product announcement Oberon-2 for VAX/VM
Organization: TRON Public Mailbox, Neurath, Germany
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 92 11:22:00 +0200

Press release, Erlangen, 29-Aug-1992


                                   H2O V1.00
                               Modula-2 Compiler
                             VAX/VMS Implementation
                       with ISO Modula-2 Standard Library

This is a summary of the *world's most ignored* professional Oberon-2
Compiler Kit for VAX/VMS. 
MVR is based upon Regies Crelier's OP2 release from ETH-Zuerich and
is under development at ModulaWare GmbH since Jan-1991 (V0.9).
In the past 6 (six) months, ModulaWare further developed H2O; the most
important features of the current release are:

 - Strongly conforms to the language described in the Report
   "The Programming Language Oberon-2 by Moessenboeck/Wirth

 - fully compatible with all other Oberon and Oberon-2 Compilers based
   on the ETH-Zuerich release.

 - underscores "_" allowed anywhere in identifiers (language extensions
   as agreed with R. Crelier)

 - world's first full ISO Modula-2 Standard Library implementation for Oberon-2:
   - efficient implementation based on VAX/VMS RMS system services
   - full validity check for ChanId and DeviceId parameters

 - foreign interfaces to operating system services & definitions and 
   layered software products
   - X11
   - DECWindows
   - OSF/Motif
   - and others such as VAXLab, GKS, LIB, MTH, SMG, PPL, OTS, FMS, SYS...
   via foreign interface modules using Modula-2 compatible calling
   conventions (ModulaWare's Modula-2 Compiler MVR)

 - fully embedded in VMS environment including VMS symbolic/source-level
  run-time debugger support.

Guenter Dotzel

For more information contact:

ModulaWare GmbH, Wilhelmstr. 17A, D-W 8520 Erlangen/F.R.Germany
Modula-2 & Oberon-2 Compiler Manufactur (VAX/VMS, OS/2 and Unix-Platforms)
Tel. +49 (9131) 208395, Fax +49 (9131) 28205.
E-mail/Internet: 100023.2527@compuserve.com
                 g_dotzel@ame.nbg.sub.org
From: g_dotzel@tron.gun.de (Guenter Dotzel)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.modula2
Subject: Re^2: Is Modula-2 dead?
Organization: TRON Public Mailbox, Neurath, Germany
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 92 09:25:00 +0200

uli%decum.enet.dec.com@USENET.ZER wrote on Thu, 08-20-1992 at 14:05 h
under the subject 'Re: Is Modula-2 dead?':

> I think neither Pascal nor Modula(-2) was ever "alive" in YOUR sense.
> In Germany I know of only two (small) companies using Modula-2 in some extent.
> C++?

I know of several small and large companies using Modula-2 :-)

> In your sense it's dead; but consider Oberon-2, up to now Wirth's latest baby.
                                                                           ^^^^
> I hope THIS language will make it's way into "...the real world",
> since it is small & beautiful, clear & concise, ......, all in all,
> it's not a stillborn child of some "WG...".
                                      ^^^^^
Oberon-2 is no way out of the dilemma that Modula-2 did not get the attention
it ought to. Although I'm a friend of Oberon-2 too (we've written a back-end
for VAX/VMS for the front-end of Crelier's OP2), there is almost no 
interest in Oberon-2 in the real world. 

Because I thought that is because we chose the wrong target platform, 
I recently inquired at ETH-Zuerich to find out what their experiences are 
with the acceptance with Oberon[-2]. 

Answer: There is currently *no* interest in Oberon[-2] from industry. 
Only Universities, research institutes
and recreational programmers (hobbiest) show some interest in Oberon.

Maybe the O2-baby has to grow up fisrt by going through some standardisation
process?

Do you know exactly what the "WG..." (I assume you mean sc22.wg13) has done
during the past 7 years? What's your problem with ISO Modula-2? The IS may take
another 18 months, but we can take advantage of the Standardisation work
today. How?

The main arguments against M2 was always "There is no standardised
library!" The ISO M2 Std Lib for example can be used today in Modula-2 (and
we do that in Oberon-2 too) of course. You don't need to wait for
the IS. You need not wait for an ISO M2 compiler. 
You can write portable programs in M2 today! You can't? 

Greetings,

Guenter Dotzel
ModulaWare GmbH, Wilhelmstr. 17A, D-W 8520 Erlangen/F.R.Germany
Modula-2 & Oberon-2 Compiler Manufactur (VAX/VMS, OS/2 and Unix-Platforms)
Tel. +49 (9131) 208395, Fax +49 (9131) 28205.
E-mail/Internet: 100023.2527@compuserve.com OR g_dotzel@ame.nbg.sub.org

Newsgroups: comp.lang.modula2