From: ljmorly@polaris.utu.fi (Laura Johanna Manninen)
Subject: Re: Humanism (personal experience)
Organization: University of Turku
Distribution: alt
Date: 6 Jan 93 13:02:09

In article <1993Jan05.171619.61515@watson.ibm.com> strom@Watson.Ibm.Com (Rob Strom) writes:
> In article <LJMORLY.93Jan5125542@polaris.utu.fi>, ljmorly@polaris.utu.fi (Laura Johanna Manninen) writes:

> |> 
> |> >Perhaps your [David Harwood's] sect of Christianity doesn't think Christians
> |> >are required to believe Jesus is God.  And Laura has also
> |> >posted, that everyone has his/her own free will to believe
> |> >or not to believe.  (But why is she so eager to get me
> |> >to believe, then???  Perhaps I'm already saved!)
> |> 
> |> I didn't mean that those who don't believe would be saved. 

> Then you're being very misleading in claiming we're free to
> believe or not.  If a policeman says "you're free to go"
> that's contradicted if you're going to be arrested if you do go.

What do you mean "misleading" ? I'm not God who sets laws or rules 
for people. You ARE free to believe or not; just that if you don't
believe, you are opposing _God_, not me.

> The context was that David Harwood claimed that I was giving
> an ignorant misinterpretation of Christianity in claiming that
> the Christian position was that one must believe in Jesus
> to be saved.  He argued that the true meaning was that one
> must lead a righteous life in the pattern of Jesus.

I'll let DH to answer to this one.

> While this may be true of David's particular sect of Christianity,
> I still don't think it's true of Christianity as a whole,
> in particular Evangelical Christianity including Messianics.
> (I certainly don't want to get in the middle of a debate
> as to whether the DH view or the LM view is "true" Christianity.)

Seems to me you are in it already.  :-)

> And your own words above seem to confirm what I wrote earlier
> about the Christian position.

> |> Acts 4:12: "Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other 
> |>             name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."
> |> 
> |> Our *own* works have nothing to do with salvation.
> |> 

> And they confirm it again here.

So, now you know what is the Christian/Messianic Jewish position.  

> |> Ephesians 2:8-10: "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith
> |>          -- and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God -- not 
> |>          by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship,
> |>          created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in
> |>          advance for us to do."
> |> 
> |> Thus we have to be obedient to God, so that we would do the works he 
> |> has prepared for us. In Matthew 7:21 Yeshua says:
> |>  
> |>          "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the
> |>           kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father
> |>           who is in heaven."
> |> 
> |> I would like you to join us, because I see hell wide open in front of you.
> |> (See e.g. Dan 12:2, Brachot 28b)
> |> 

> And again here.  You see --- you're not just "a Jew who believes in Jesus". 

Where do you you get the statement that I'm "a Jew who believes in Jesus" ?
Don't you remember what I told you half a year ago, both by e-mail and here
on AM ?

> You believe in hell.

See Dan. 12:2, Brachot 28b

>  You believe Paul's contention that salvation
> is "not from yourselves".  (Notice how Paul's quote is contradicted
> by the quote from Jesus which you appended.)

Paul is right, and there's no contradiction anywhere.

> That's what I've been calling "the
> Christian position". Are you a Jew at all, by the way?

No. Where do you get that in the first place ? My heart is Jewish and 
I wouldn't mind having the Israeli citizenship, but I've never claimed 
to be a Jew. 

>  Why are
> you a Messianic rather than, say, a Lutheran?

Both, so far... You should remember that as well. Being a Lutheran makes
it easier to go from door to door telling people about God's grace thru
Messiah Yeshua, so I haven't bothered to stop being one. 

> |> BTW I'd like to know what is your concept of repentance ? (Or anyone 
> |> else's ?) Rob L once said something like "one's path of repentance 
> |> usually includes charity", which seems to me a misunderstanding of the
> |> whole issue. 
> |> 

> Repentance is turning back to righteousness.  It means
> facing the errors of one's ways and taking practical steps
> to cure them.

And what's God's position in all this ? What you are saying seems to 
imply that a man makes himself righteous, which is impossible and not
Biblical.

> -- 
> Rob Strom, strom@watson.ibm.com, (914) 784-7641
> IBM Research, 30 Saw Mill River Road, P.O. Box 704, Yorktown Heights, NY  10598

Yours, Laura
--
"For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government 
will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Councellor,
Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."  - Yeshaya 9:5 (9:6)
 
"To the Jews who had believed him, Yeshua said, "If you hold to my
teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth,
and the truth will set you free.""   - Yochanan 8:32-33
Newsgroups: alt.messianic