HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: rhh@alice.att.com (r hardin)
Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs
Subject: Re: behavior modification or dog training
Date: 21 Nov 92 13:08:59 GMT
Article-I.D.: alice.24264
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories, Murray Hill NJ



Jon Krueger writes:
>> Susie who sits and thinks ``I am Susie who sits in spite of rabbits.''

>We can see whether she sits.  We don't know what she thinks.  And we
>don't need to in order to prevent or solve behavior problems.

>Hard to believe, but Evelyn didn't ask what her dog thinks, or ought
>to think, or for a philosophical treatise.  She asked how to stop
>unwanted barking and jumping behavior.

But what is the doubt supposed to be about what she thinks?   As if
something were going on INSIDE her that we can't know because we're
OUTSIDE and all we see is behavior.  This is the skeptical recital.

But the dog is easy to read, just as under usual social circumstances, I am
easy to read.  If I want to think scientifically about thinking, I do it not
by thinking with unusual precision, but by thinking with unusual emptiness.

She thinks ``I am Susie who sits in spite of rabbits'' as plainly as
day, because she does not conceal it.

I might tell somebody about something, and be asked, ``What did he think
about it when you told him?''  And I might say, ``I don't know.''
_That_ is what being in doubt about what someone is thinking is like.
From: susan@uvmark.uucp (Susan Todhunter - (JWT))
Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs
Subject: Re: Abuse
Date: 21 Nov 92 14:33:21 GMT
Distribution: rec.pets.dogs, rec.pets.cats, rec.pets
Organization: VMARK Software, Inc.

In article <22509@drutx.ATT.COM> mlhb@mammoth.dr.att.com (Sky Warrior) writes:
>In article <102216@bu.edu>, smott@bu.edu (SHARON MOTT) writes:
>|> about it.  I feel so helpless for these suffering animals!  I also feel 
>|> that there should be harsher punishments given to the abusers.  No one 
>|> should get away without any punishment after what they have done!  Any
>|> responses agrreing or disagreeing with me would be greatly appreciated.
>|> X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5
>|> 
>
>Take this to talk.animals.politics.  This is NOT the place for your diatribe.
>
>Animals do not have rights; people have responsibilities. 
>

If "people have responsibilities" to treat animals in a certain way, then   
animals have a RIGHT to be treated in that way.

It is questionable, however, whether the second poster has the right to 
tell the first where to post.            

-- 

  Susan Todhunter
 
  Internet: uvmark!susan@merk.com, UUCP: uunet!merk!uvmark!susan
From: rhh@alice.att.com (r hardin)
Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs
Subject: Re: Greyhound Behavior Problem
Date: 22 Nov 92 13:18:53 GMT
Article-I.D.: alice.24269
Distribution: usa
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories, Murray Hill NJ



Get a copy of Koehler, ``The Koehler Method of Dog Training,'' and
do what it ways, omitting nothing.

It's a wonderful method, but in addition has a reputation even among
enemies of curing biting.

Commentary on Koehler is in Vicki Hearne's ``Adam's Task: Calling Animals
by Name'' that is helpful in understanding what you're doing when you
do what he says.
Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs
From: king@cbnewsk.cb.att.com (joyce.l.king)
Subject: Re: Retrieving the Paper
Organization: AT&T
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1992 14:31:45 GMT
Summary: and another newspaper retrieve story

> >I have a Flat Coated Retriever puppy (12 weeks now) that I'd
> >like to train to bring in the paper. I've been taking her
> >out on leash every morning, and she attempts to pick up the
> >paper and return it to the house. Sometimes the paper is too
> >large for her, or it's folded loosely, and she can't handle it.
> >On these days I have a smaller paper that I drop for her and
> >she carries it in instead. She is _really_ proud of herself
> >when she lets me take the paper from her inside the house. 
> >She thinks this is all great fun.
> 
> I thought I'd interject with a funny story -- When Kalli was about
> 6 months old, we moved to a neighborhood where it was safe for her
> to go to the mailbox/end of the driveway by herself.  We didn't have
> paper boxes -- the newspapers were bundled and tossed at the end of
> each person's driveway.  So, my roommates and I taught Kalli, with
> great success to retrieve our newspaper.  Suddenly, we were being blessed
> with 2 newspapers every day, then 3, then.... the neighbors began to 
> call us and complain that they were no longer getting their newspapers!
> tehehehehe.  It was pretty funny. :-)

Angel, simply the smartest dog that ever lived, was 2 1/2 years old when
I married and she had to accept another "master."  We moved to the
country.  After I taught her not to leave her ten acres (a few walks around
the perimeter, and few "NOs!" when she stepped out of bounds, and she was
trained) I taught her to retrieve the newspaper, which was thrown onto the
end of the 100' driveway.  One day when I was gone and my husband was home
he reprimanded her for something.  He was prone to smacking her lightly
with a newspaper, something I'd never done.  She obviously got pissed, so
when he sent her out to get the paper, she retrieved it smartly, walked
into the front yard, dropped the paper into a wide, deep mud puddle, and
pouted in the woods until I got home.   The training was successful.  My
husband never hit her again, even though he'd ALWAYS known that a rolled-
up newspaper was the perfect vehicle for dog training.

Angel, BTW, was a black and silver GSD.  She was 5 years old when our first
child was born.  My mother was sure she'd eat the baby.  When I brought
Sharon home from the hospital, Angel went into the room, sniffed the bassinet,
and proclaimed herself guardian and second mother.  My children learned to
walk by hanging onto Angel's neck scruff while she walked slowly around
the house.  I don't think I have a single snapshot of Sharon or Scott around
the house as babies that doesn't include Angel, too.  All of her mothering
instincts seemed to settle on my children....they had two mothers.

-- 
                       Joyce Andrews King
From: schlumpf@uimrl7.mrl.uiuc.edu
Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs
Subject: UPDATE: Gaseous GSD...
Date: 16 Nov 92 16:39:50 GMT
Article-I.D.: news.BxtIAH.3LF
Reply-To: schlumpf@uimrl7.mrl.uiuc.edu ()
Organization: Materials Research Lab



Well folks, as I was going to the vet Saturday with Dante, the jester-cat,
anyway, I decided to ask him about little Siegfried and his gas and gulping
problem. I don't know why I couldn't put two and two together myself, 
but hey, that's what vets are for, right!? :)

I asked him what we could do to slow down Siegfried and his inhaling food
(that's about what he does, hardly chews at all). He asked what we were
feeding, that was okay, how often, yes 3x day was right, was he getting enough,
yes, food was left in the bowl. Was he bothered by the other animals, no, not
that often. So, He gave me the impression that there really wasn't anything
to stop him from inhaling his food and that, if wewere lucky, he'd just
out grow it. So, then I asked about his gas problem. The vet said that most
likely was a product of his gulping down food. (now why didn't *I* think
of that??) As he most likely was inhaling quite a bit of air with all that
snarfing! He said a change in food MIGHT help, but probably not. He gave us 
a sample of Science Diet to try. So, we mixed that with his regular food over
the period of a day and waited to see what happened. Nope, he snarfed it down
as quickly as ever and his gas problem was WORSE than ever, most likely
because of the intro of the new food.  So, for now we're just leaving
him on his usual food (Nutro Max) and opening the window periodically
(did wonders for my cold..sniff sniff Ahhh CHOOOOO).

THanks for the words of wisdom!!!!

Kay & Crew
From: kudzu@netcom.com (Michael Sierchio)
Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs
Subject: Re: Question about Schutzhund Training
Date: 24 Nov 92 03:24:57 GMT
Organization: True Love, and Home-Grown Tomatoes

In article <1992Nov23.170356.23505@nntpd.lkg.dec.com> 
	janicki@tuxedo.enet.dec.com writes:

>Before attending an Ian Dunbar seminar, I would have also said not to
>inhibit a dog at all during the first 12 months. I have since changed
>my thinking. I do believe any puppy can be taught basic manners and
>still retain good drive.

I know Ian, and think his approach is fine -- if you want a pet. He doesn't
work in Schutzhund, or Ring Sport.  There is a lot to his puppy training that
will seriously hamper, if not ruin, your dog's performance as a working dog,
esp. too much puppy play among different breeds -- which doesn't favor
sensitive dogs like dobies, GSDs, malinois, etc. when they're in a room with
retrievers.

>It all depends on how you teach the manners.

There it is -- the word "manners" again.  Dogs have no concept of such a
thing.  If you don't permit your dog to do something, he won't do it.  If
you do, he will.

>The difference is
>that you have an on-off switch. And you don't constantly keep the
>dog on "off". A companion dog should mostly
>be "off". A working dog needs to be "on" more frequently.

This has no basis, in my experience.  Dogs can learn very complex behaviors,
and can be taught to be discriminating -- about when to bite, for instance
(you can imagine how that comes in handy) -- but some dogs are wound up all
the time.

>Call it one perspective on the training. I know it is not the
>common one for Schutzhund training. 

Perspective depends on where you are, and your eyesight.

-- 
+--------------------------------------------------------------------------+
|  Michael Sierchio                          1563 Solano Avenue, Suite 123 |
|  kudzu@netcom.com                                Berkeley, CA 94707-2116 |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------------+
From: rgoldstone@OAVAX.CSUCHICO.EDU (Robin, Girl Wonder)
Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs
Subject: Re: Falk, K-9 cop, shot & lives
Date: 20 Nov 92 16:01:03 GMT
Reply-To: rgoldstone@OAVAX.CSUCHICO.EDU
Organization: California State University, Chico
NNTP-Posting-Host: oavax.csuchico.edu

In article <2B0C665F.2641@ics.uci.edu>, tittle@ics.uci.edu (Cindy Tittle Moore) writes:
>
>This *is* nice.  Public perception of police dogs is often very
>negative (to be fair, there are a number of poorly trained dogs out
>there that give credence to the fear...*s*i*g*h*).

Speaking of this, has anyone seen the drug dog trading cards that are in
Milk Bone boxes?  I got a box of milk bones the other day and there were
two of these cards inside.  They have pictures of dogs who have been highly
successful in sniffing out drugs.  They include a picture of the dog, some
"stats" (breed, sex, age, weight) plus their total seizure amount.  Pretty
neat!  Romeo was impressed.  I read him the cards and showed him the pictures.
He liked them so much he tried to eat them!  8-)

-Robin
***********************************************************************
Robin Goldstone, Systems Software Specialist
California State University, Chico  Computing Services
rgoldstone@oavax.csuchico.edu
Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs
Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs
Distribution: jadpc2
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 92 09:57:00 -0800
From: ELAINE_GALLEGOS@f703.n202.z1.fidonet.org
Subject: New to group - introduction
Comment-To: All@f703.n202.z1.fidonet.org
Reply-To: ELAINE_GALLEGOS@f703.n202.z1.fidonet.org
X-FSC-PATH: 202/703 701
X-FSC-PID:  RA 0.04

  I don't want my dog to bark his head off when someone knocks on the
door.  I can hear someone knocking.  I want the dog to bark when there
is a strange noise going on that I Can't hear- such as someone
snooping around in the back yard or windows.
  Many more people have the problem of the dog who won't shut up when
there is someone at the door they must deal with.
--- FMail 0.92
 * Origin: HILLCREST COMMUNITY BBS, SAN DIEGO: HST 619-291-0544 (1:202/703)
From: sla54@cas.org (Sandra Augustine)
Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs
Subject: Homemade dog food for kidney problems
Date: 16 Nov 92 18:57:04 GMT
Article-I.D.: cas.1992Nov16.185704.17055
Organization: Chemical Abstracts Service, Columbus, Ohio


	I'm posting this for a friend with an older dog who's been diagnosed
as having kidney problems.
	Does anyone know of a homemade diet which is good for dogs with kidney
problems? My friend is currently feeding canned prescription diet, and at
$1/can and 3.5 cans/day its getting kind of expensive.
	If you know of any homemade diets, please e-mail me or post on r.p.d
if you think it might be of more general interest.
	Thanks!

********************************************************************************
Sandra Augustine  |Home of: Conformation, obedience, and field titled Golden
NORWOOD KENNELS   |Retrievers who do therapy dog work, a disobedient but
ems: sla54@cas.org|beautiful Siberian husky and a *cute* Norfolk terrier puppy
********************************************************************************
	       The above opinions are not those of my employer.
********************************************************************************
Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs
From: crs@beta.lanl.gov (Charlie Sorsby)
Subject: Re: Size of Kennel for Golden Retriever
Organization: Los Alamos National Laboratory
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 18:38:00 GMT

In article <1992Nov17.074135.9283@iccgcc.decnet.ab.com> williamsk@iccgcc.decnet.ab.com (SETTING UP FOR A FINISH) writes:
= 
= The smallest size VARI-Kennel you would use is a 400 (24"W x 36"D x 26"H).
= If you were going to use a wire crate you would want to get something about
= the same dimensions.

And remember that no two manufacturers seem to be able to use
corresponding designations for the various sizes.  Indeed, in the
case of Doskocil, no *one* manufacturer seems able to do so.  In
their case, their large KennelCab II is smaller than the
medium-small (200 size) VariKennel which they also make.  I like
their products but this drives me nuts.

And, perhaps even more important, don't depend on the person
selling the thing to be aware of that, especially if you call for
prices.  When I priced my 400 size VariKennel, I asked if they had
a corresponding size in KennelCab II and how much.  It turns out
that there is, apparently, no such thing but the person I spoke
with glibly priced the large KCII at about half the price of the
400 VC--that's the KCII that's smaller than the *200* VC.

Be careful if you shop by phone and look for yourself in the
store.


-- 
Best,

Charlie "Older than dirt" Sorsby				"I'm the NRA!"
	  crs@lanl.gov
Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs
From: jpk@Ingres.COM (Jon Krueger)
Subject: Re: behavior modification or dog training
Reply-To: jpk@Ingres.COM (Jon Krueger)
Organization: Ask Computer Systems Inc., Ingres Division, Alameda CA 94501
Date: 22 Nov 92 05:08:12 GMT

r hardin writes:
> as if we're OUTSIDE and all we see is behavior.

Correct.  Did you think you were inside Susie?

-- Jon
--
Jon Krueger  jpk@ingres.com
From: smott@bu.edu (SHARON MOTT)
Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs
Subject: Re: Abuse
Date: 16 Nov 92 22:38:35 GMT
Distribution: rec.pets.dogs, rec.pets.cats, rec.pets
	
	I feel that animals have just as many equal rights as humans do!

about it.  I feel so helpless for these suffering animals!  I also feel 
that there should be harsher punishments given to the abusers.  No one 
should get away without any punishment after what they have done!  Any
responses agrreing or disagreeing with me would be greatly appreciated.
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5

Sharon
From: vln@icpsr.umich.edu (Victoria Neff)
Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs
Subject: Re: UPDATE: Gaseous GSD...
Date: 17 Nov 1992 18:47:48 GMT
Organization: Inter-University Consortium for Political and Social Research
NNTP-Posting-Host: tdis.icpsr.umich.edu

In article <BxtIAH.3LF@news.cso.uiuc.edu> schlumpf@uimrl7.mrl.uiuc.edu () writes:
>Well folks, as I was going to the vet Saturday with Dante, the jester-cat,
>anyway, I decided to ask him about little Siegfried and his gas and gulping
>problem.

One thing to try for gulping is to put several large (3-4") clean rocks in the
dog's dish.  Then they have to sort of hunt for the food bits, and it's
harder to just inhale.....


Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs
From: abb@unislc.uucp (Anne Beck)
Subject: Re: Problem With Neighbors' Cat
Organization: Unisys Corporation SLC
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 23:05:26 GMT

From article <19NOV199212313409@csa3.lbl.gov>, by jtchew@csa3.lbl.gov (Ad absurdum per aspera):
> From the dog owner's point of view:  Any HINT of prey drive against a 
> cat earns our Dobie a roll -- right there in front of the cat.  With 3
> 
Good.  I'd have done that also if they'd ever before chased a
cat.  No cat had ever come into "their" yard before.  And they
don't bother their own cats in the house.
I was VERY surprised they did it. However, they are all trained,
and they IMMEDIATELY responded to my "Leave it!"

> From the cat owner's point of view: Your three dogs cornered the poor
> kitty (putting up the best possible facade of imminent bloody murder,
> I'm sure, whatever their actual intentions) and you're unhappy because
> it fought back?  
> 
No, I'm actually glad the cat had the sense to do so.  I'm NOT
happy that it sent one of my dogs to the vet.  If one of my
cats got out by accident, I'd want it to come back in one piece, which
might mean lashing some dog across the face.

The point is, the cat didn't belong in my yard.  I was unprepared
for it.  My dogs were unprepared for it.  The poor cat had
probably never seen a dog before.  I hope that cat never wants
to see another one.  However, my neighbors will probably insist
that it repeat the experience "for her own good."
> 
> My cats are indoor-outdoor cats that spend most of their time in the
> house but clamor for their time in the garden.  Where, yes, they might
> encounter other cats and have to deal with it.  I respect the "keep
> cats indoors" arguments but do not agree with them.  Life is not a
> sterilized, safety-engineered theme park.

No, it's not, but you don't have to TRY to make it dangerous.
And if you want your cat to be "free," then you'd better be prepared
for the consequences:  which could include irate neighbors, 
vet bills, and dead cats.  

The bottom line is, I don't want that beautiful cat dead, and
certainly not because of the UNEXPECTED actions of my dogs.

However, I don't intend inviting the cat back for a training 
session!  I think it's something not enough cat owners think
about:  that their animals can actually disturb other people and
other animals.  That's one reason I keep mine in the house, as
well as for their safety.  If I could control them as I do
my dogs, I might let them out.
> 
> Cheers,
> --Joe
> "Just another personal opinion from the People's Republic of Berkeley"
And I do thank you for it, really.  I like it that you can
look at it from both points of view!
-- 
   Anne Beck			| The difference between difficult
   abb@unislc  sun!unislc!abb   | dogs & vicious human beings is
   Unisys  SLC UT               | that difficult dogs don't rise to 
			        | prominent positions in the community.
From: rhh@alice.att.com (r hardin)
Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs
Subject: Re: behavior modification or dog training
Date: 17 Nov 92 14:09:26 GMT
Article-I.D.: alice.24212
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories, Murray Hill NJ



Jon Krueger writes:
>> The significant part is that you correct him for the down

>Incorrect.  The significant (causal) part is his previous history.
>It adds an incompatible behavior to his repertoire.

>If down is not in his repertoire or it's not incompatible with
>barking, "correct" all you want; at best you'll punish barking.

The significant part is the syntax of the down;  the dog does not
give himself commands, even when he lies down  on his own (actually there's
an ancient Barnaby cartoon by Crockett Johnson, where the dog discovers
discovers he can talk, and starts giving himself commands in the background of
several frames.  An acknowledgement that speech is required for a command.
Ie., a syntax of command.)  It's different from behavior.

Response to a command isn't behavior.  L respondere, to answer, to
promise in return.  ``I asked him to join me.'' ``What was his response?''
vs.  ``What was his behavior?''  I keep saying that it is impoverishing
to refuse the distinction here.  I train for response in this sense.

If the dog knows the down and the correction, then you're correcting
the down when you give the down correction, even though he hasn't
mastered everything about the down yet.  Ie., it isn't behavior yet,
in your terms, which I want to refute anyway.

Another distinction you don't make, between correction and punishment.

Let me give you a data point:

Training heel, as Koehler does it, consists of trying to trip the dog
up in various ways if he's out of position or not paying attention.
Ie., very fast about-faces when he forges ahead, so he's caught up
short when his slack runs out; slowing down and turning left and
kneeing him in the neck; turning right if he's too far to the left
and tightening the leash too quickly for him as you depart.

You'll see of course all sorts of negative consequences for the foolish
dog.  You'll see punishments.

Well, here's the data point.  I haven't had my dog on a leash in years
for just walking around town, because it hasn't been necessary.  But,
sometimes she asks to go out and work - not play frisbee, not pee, but
just do some work, be it a jump or whatever.  Sometimes we go out and
practice heeling.  In particular, I hold out the choke collar with leash
attached, and she eagerly pokes her nose into it!

Now, the only thing the choke collar has ever been used for is corrections,
be it for heeling, sit, down, etc.  Yet she welcomes it!  We're going
to do some work!  Great!

Then I spend a few minutes with her trying my best to knee her in the
neck, trying to about face and catch her short, etc. etc, and I can't
do it - she's too good.

There's no way she ever understood corrections as punishment, WHY IS THAT???

I'm curious about what your answer would be. Why would she welcome such
a thing?

``I am Susie who heels perfectly in spite of about-faces and left turns.''

She knows and loves a syntax.
From: llmacdon@orion.oac.uci.edu (Linda Macdonald)
Subject: Re: DOG IS SICK
Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: 19 Nov 92 17:45:52 GMT
Distribution: jadpc2

Elaine,

I am not going to go through everything I said in an earlier post,
but I will tell you that I have a nine year-old cocker spaniel
who was diagnosed as having a bad heart 18 months ago.  If I had
asked your advice, you would, no doubt, have told me to "put him
down" before he started to suffer.  Instead, I had faith in my
vet and my GOD and said a lot of prayers for both Charlie and me.
Six months ago my vet was at a conference where another vet talked
about a drug that had been used to help dogs with a particular kind
of heart problem.  Charlie now takes that drug and is now only
stable, but getting better.  No, he won't live forever, but when
he does leave me to go to heaven, I will know I did everything
human possible to give him a happy and long life.

Linda

In article <9211181711.AA2079@f723.n202.z1.fidonet.org> ELAINE_GALLEGOS@f703.n202.z1.fidonet.org writes:
> > >  Your old dog sounds very sick.  It's probably cancer.  Maybe
> > >advanced liver disease.  You can consider putting the dog down,
> > >although it doesn't sound like he is going to live much longer on
>his
> > >own.
> > 
> > Geez lady.  You are so full of empathy.  Between this post
> > and the the 
> > postregarding the woman whose dog had kidney failure, you're
> > quite 
> > something -- helpful, kind and considerate. 
> > NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> > 
> > --- rfmail 1.1.J
> >  * Origin: Orphan Board West  fido <-> unix gateway
> > (1:202/723)
>  Actually, I am quite empathetic.  I just don't believe in giving
>people false hope.  I believe it is far more cruel to lead someone to
>think their fatally ill pets are going to make some miracle recovery. 
>
>--- FMail 0.92
> * Origin: HILLCREST COMMUNITY BBS, SAN DIEGO: HST 619-291-0544 (1:202/703)


Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs