Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: stephenp@cix.compulink.co.uk (Stephen Phillips)
Subject: Re: Conversion Question
Cc: stephenp@cix.compulink.co.uk
Reply-To: stephenp@cix.compulink.co.uk
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 16:28:00 +0000


> +From         : ask@cbnews.cb.att.com (Arthur S. Kamlet)
> +Subject      : Re: Conversion Question
> 
> In article <memo.733601@cix.compulink.co.uk> stephenp@cix.compulink.co.uk writes:
> >> ]I'm not trying to insult anybody, merely stating a fact.
> >> ]
> >> 
> >> Nonsense. 
> >> 
> >> You _deliberately_ went out of your way to add something to your post
> >> in order to make it pointedly insulting to a large number of your
> >> fellow Jews on the net. There was _no_ reason to go out of your way
> ...
> >Are you saying that a conversion before a Conservative Beis Din would
> >be accepted by an Orthodox Beis Din? I really don't think it would;
> >certainly not in London and certainly it wasn't by Reb Moshe. I
> >therefore do not consider my belief to be unjustified. For that
> >reason, it was not meant as an insult, merely a statement of fact.
> 
> Again, I ask if the response you refer to was not one of compassion
> for a woman either whose husband had disappeared or whose husband
> refused to grant her a get?  In such a very specific case I have
> heard of rulings that declared certain marriages or conversions as
> null, but those were not sweeping generalizations.  They never said
> to my knowledge that a conservative Bet Din proves the conversion is
> not kosher.  They were to help a particular woman in a particular
> circumstance.  (And in some cases the Bet Din or rabbi who
> officiated at the wedding was consulted in advance, to say the
> ruling isn't an insult but rather a way to help out the woman.)
> We here in this group should only have the understanding and
> compassion of the sources you yourself cite.

No, I was not referring to such a case. In fact, yesterday I had a
brief look at Igros Moshe (Reb Moshe's Teshuvos) and I cam across a
question where a Cohen had married a woman who had been converted
through a Conservative Beis Din. A Cohen is not permitted to marry a
convert. Reb Moshe held (as far as I can recall) that the conversion
was not valid as it was a Conservative one. But even if the wife were
to convert through the Orthodox, she would still not be permitted to
marry her husband again as he was a Cohen. Thus, both parties would,
according to Reb Moshe, have to separate. A very sad case, I think
you will agree, but Reb Moshe had no hesitation in upholding the
Halachah in reaching his decision.


>
> ----
> >Belief doesn't come into it. The fact is that Conservative
> >conversions are not recognised by the Orthodox. If you find that fact
> >hard to swallow, well I'm sorry but there's nothing I can do about
> >it.
> 
> You know, I have lived in a moderately large town in Ohio for about
> 16 years.  It is not  a major center of  Jewish public opinion, it
> is not New York or Crown Heights or Chicago or Jersulem or Bnei
> Brak, and so is not in the public spotlight.
> 
> And the strange thing is there are Jews and rabbis who are reform
> and conservative and orthodox and there are Lubavitcher Chasidim and
> we all get along together.  I have never seen one rabbi insult
> another, or even laypeople insult each other.  And if a reform or
> conservative Bet Din asks the orthodox rabbi in charge of the mikveh
> (we have only one in the city) for permission to use the mikveh for
> a conversion, the rabbi always says yes!


We're back to insults now. Let me repeat, I am not trying to insult
anybody.


> And if a convert enters an orthodox synagogue he or she is treated
> as any other Jew.

I would have to question the judgment of an Orthodox Rabbi who treats
a Conservative convert as halachicly Jewish. Do you know of any cases
where such a person has applied to marry in an Orthodox Shul? If so,
I would be interested to know whether he or she was required to
undergo another conversion through the Orthodox.


> Why is this?  I think in a smaller town Jews don't have the glare of
> publicity, don't have to show any sort of holier than thou attitudes
> to the world.

The Torah is no different in Columbus to Chicago or New York.

>
> More important, and a lesson that many but not all of us have
> learned:   it is really Ok to live together, to be nice to
> one another, to care about one's fellow Jews, to say a kind word
> when it's as easy to cast an insult, to do teshuva all the time and
> not merely at Yom Kippur.  These things are possible and you will be
> pleased to know the orthodox are still orthodox, the Chasidim are
> still Chasidim, the conservative and reform are still conservative
> and reform.  Getting along together did not cause the mezzuah to
> fall off the door or cast an evil eye on anyone.  But it did promote
> peace within the Jewish community, and discouraged those who would
> seek the opposite.
> 
> When I read statements of people who hate, I am saddened more when
> these people are Jews.  I do not think there is a commandment to
> hate our neighbor.

I don't hate any of my fellow Jews, be they Orthodox, Conservative,
Reform or unaffiliated. So kindly quit making such statements.

What I will say is that I have no regard for those leaders of Jewish
movements whose actions are contrary to the Torah and result in a
watering down of Torah true Judaism and in some cases result in much
anguish when, God Forbid, Mamzerus occurs. The fact that Conservative
conversions are not valid is not an insurmountable problem; a person
can always undergo a further conversion through the Orthodox to cure
the invalidity. What causes inurmountable problems, however, is the
fact that Gittin (Divorce Documents) granted through the Conservative
and Reform are not valid and any children born to a woman divorced
through the C or R from a subsequent marriage are Mamzerim as the
woman is considered still to be an Eishes Ish (married to her first
husband).

In such cases, no amount of compassion can help, although one's heart
goes out to such unfortunate people. It is true that Reb Moshe was,
in certain cases involving a Reform marriage, able to declare that
the marriage was invalid in the first instance and a Get was not
required. But I do not believe that his opinion was universally
accepted.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Stephen (Yisroel) Phillips      Tel: 44-895-442141
Burch Phillips & Co.            Fax: 44-895-421231
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United Kingdom                  stephenp@compulink.co.uk

Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish