From: enigma@netcom.Netcom.COM (Enigma)
Subject: Re: Anger towards women (was Re: Ouch.)   (SPOILERS)
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 92 18:34:05 GMT
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Service

In article <396@asylum.UUCP> sandro@asylum.UUCP (Sandro Wallach) writes:


>I feel like I have to reply to Doug Sojourner's post, and preemptively
>to other people who feel the same way.  I have reflexes built up from
>many years of socialization that keep me out of flame wars -- in this
>case I'm suppressing them, because there are things I need to say.
>I'm not going to spew rage or insults, but I'm also not going to avoid
>talking about sensitive subjects in insensitive ways.  In other words,
>stop reading if you can.

I'm going to respond in the same spirit.  I'm hoping it will help if
we talk this thing out.

>**** SPOILERS: Anger, Confusion, and Generally Bad Thoughts ****
 
>

>doug@cdc.hp.com (Doug Sojourner) writes:

>>Ouch too (& I'm not even in the group targeted).  Just now I don't
>>feel like ever reading something from either of those two people
>>again: even if there are good reasons for their pain, I don't think
>>that justifies their saying something like that in this environment.
>>It feels like abuse to me ...

>PLEASE tell me how my post hurt you.  I thought a lot about posting it
>-- because I don't think I wanted to hurt anybody here -- and I
>couldn't see how anyone could be more hurt by what I said than than by
>lots of other spoilers people post. 

A few short months ago your post would have made me mad as hell (and
I would have read it, despite the spoilers, because I'm nosy).  That 
is *not* to say you shouldn't have posted it, at least from my point
of view.  If my buttons are going to be pushed (and they are), I'd
much rather it happen here on asar where I can work through it, and
heal and grow.  When it happens out in the "real world", I have to
save it up for my therapist, and write lots of journal entries.  This
is one of the main issues I'm working on, so I experienced my negative
reaction to your post as an opportunity.

All my life I've been raging against the injustice of being told "you're
different, bad, worthless, not good enough, you can't do that, and that,
and that, because you're female".  Here in California, in 1992, it's
not as big a deal.  But growing up in Pennsylvania in the late '50's,
the misogyny was truly unbelievable.  My younger brother tried to claim
that he was the most important child in the family, because he was the
"oldest son".  I used to beat the shit out of him when he'd do this.
I still hate his guts.  I've been working on this for close to a year,
both in therapy and as part of my 12-step program (step 8), trying to
become willing to heal this, but the sad truth is that I still hate him.

I supposed it wouldn't have bothered me as much if I believed the whole
world agreed with him.  I might have concluded that women really are 
inferior, as many women of my generation did.  No doubt I would have
grabbed for all the special privileges I could get, as compensation.
But in my heart, I knew the idea that males are superior to females
is complete and utter bullshit.  You see, my grandmother was a very
strong and powerful woman.  My grandfather was quite a bit older than
she was, and when he died, she took over the two comanies he'd started
and ran them, although she was heavily pressured to sell them, as
nobody in those days believed a woman could or should succeed in
business.  She was very successful.  I was named after her, and I
fully intended to grow up to be like her.  My father (her son)
expected me to grow up to be like her too.  So when my brother pulled
this "females are inferior" crap, I *knew* he was wrong (I suspect
he got it from my father's older brother, personally).  

Anyway, I'm pretty sure I was the only feminist in my grade school.
And my high school.  Finally, in college, the rest of the world 
seemed to be starting to realize that I'd been right all along.  The
school I picked had been all-male up to the year before I started.
And since I majored in electrical engineering, the classes I was in
were almost completely male.  I can remember two other women besides
me, and there might have been another, I'm not sure after all these 
years.  Things have been pretty much the same ever since - the 
engineering department I'm currently working in has about 150
engineers, as far as I can guesstimate, and only two of them besides
me are female.  Typical.

So when you guys say you hate women, there are two parts to my
reaction.  The first part is: what the hell have *I* ever done,
that you should hate me?  The other part is a dark suspicion that
all those other women are in fact doing something to deserve this
reaction, and through no fault of my own, I'm being lumped in with
them.  I don't know that many other women, and I can't understand
why a lot of them act the way they do.  It's almost as if they
*believed* all that crap about women being inferior.  I wish I could
understand where they'e coming from, but I don't, yet.


>The only thing that seems different to me is that I used the word
>"women" when I said it.  Suddenly I was visibly taking sides in a war
>between the sexes, a war where the women pretend to have all the moral
>high ground.  It's an ancient war of power and intellect and emotions,
>a war I first entered as an innocent and left as a casualty...

>I can't tell some of what happened.  Here's one of the battles I can
>talk about, though: As a boy, I was (among other things) being beaten
>and tormented by my sister.  She was bigger than me, but the real
>power she had over me what that if I ever fought back, I got punished
>for _hurting_a_girl_.  So I endured, and did whatever she made me do.
>(Finally, when I was about 12, she and I were much less supervised and
>I was able to fight back and she stopped.)

>Is it any wonder I get angry when girls or women hide behind the
>shield or privilege of being female?  I know damn well plenty of women
>(including my sister) have been abused, so don't lecture me that they
>need special protection or anything: I needed special protection, too,
>as a boy, but somehow I was just supposed to take it like a man.

I would tend to put the blame on your parents (yes, I know society
told them to behave this way.  tough).  They were telling both of
you "girls are weak, and inferior, and need special protection
because of this".  No wonder your sister hated you, the male child
destined for all the opportunities and privileges she could never
have.

You were too little to realize this, and all you saw was the special
protection she "enjoyed".  There was no way you could have put
yourself in her shoes.  Can you do it now?  As an adult?  If it helps,
please know that I have been trying to put myself in my brother's
shoes for the last year.  I know I owe him an amends, as I'm sure I
made his life hell, even before he started claiming pre-eminence as
the "oldest son".  I resented him from the day he was born (I was
only a year and a half old), as I believed my parents were discarding
me, replacing me with this new child.  They already had me, I
reasoned, so why did they go and have *another* child?  I did
everything I could to "put him in his place", to let him know that he
was, always and forever, in second place.  I've probably ruined his
life - yet all I've ever been able to see is how *he* harmed *me*.


>Obviously, "Woman Hater's" post struck a chord in me.  I thought: this
>guy (I assumed it was a guy) is jumping into a fire I know too well --
>I can't just stand by....    I was kind of hoping some other people
>might help, too, but oh well.   It's not a physical fight, but even if
>it was, I think I'd rather die than give in any more.  (Probably just
>romantic thinking -- I chose to survive so far.  No reason to give up
>now.)

I was going to respond to "give in any more" - but you did it yourself,
in the next paragraph.

I was going to respond to "Woman Hater"'s post though (but I was at
work, taking a short break to read news, and I was too busy and put it
off till later).  Woman Hater felt threatened by all the flaming, and
turned around and flamed back.  People who are in emotional pain do
this.  It takes a lot of healing and recovery before you can see the
emotional pain in someone who is attacking you, before you can love
your "enemies".  The reflex reaction is to attack back.  People keep
expecting asar to be a safe place, and wishing it was a safe place.
It is not, and never can be, a safe place, as long as people who are
in emotional pain are allowed to post here.  If it ever becomes a safe
place, that will mean it's work is done and we can get rid of it.

>Anyway -- I know it's not really a war.  I know we're better off if we
>all work together, as thinking, caring creatures of the universe.  War
>and power struggles happen when people lose what they need, and do
>whatever they can to get it back.  Sometimes it seems like I was raped
>and abused by both sides in this stupid war, as a soldier and traitor
>(for my father) and a prisoner and spy (for my mother).

>I need to express anger at both sides.   It's not hard to find a
>sympathic helpful ear if I want to rage against my father.  Father
>hating, *man* hating is everywhere.  That's cool (to a point).  It's
>much harder to talk about what my mother did.  Maybe I should read
>some Bly or something, but I think he's probably to metaphoric.

Mirror image for me - I got in touch with my anger at my mother long
ago (maybe 20 years ago, if I remember correctly), but only got in
touch with my anger at my father this year.  I got a lot of support
around my anger at my mother - maybe it's an "opposite sex parent"
kind of thing.  I don't know.


>Let's be clear about one more thing.  Fearsome, horrible misogyny,
>which we see throughout our society, is (in fact) fearsome and
>horrible, as is any action stemming from hatred, including gay bashing
>and racial violence.  There are two ways to deal with it: try to force
>people to act nice, or try to actually heal the wounds that drive
>people madly towards creating more pain and destruction.  Guess which
>tactic I prefer?

Okay, I give up.  Which?  :-)   No, just kidding, I agree with you.

>Anyway.  I know there are a lot of people who wont be able to
>understand what I'm saying, and others who simply wont accept it.  I
>hope if you're upset, you'll at least read this once more, imagining
>you're hearing it from a crying, precocious seven-year old boy sitting
>cross-legged on a hardwood floor.  Thanks.  If that didn't help, you
>might as well just put my name in your kill file; you're not likely to
>change my mind.

If people need to do that, that's okay.  Hopefully, later on they'll
be able to take your name back out of their kill file and deal with
this stuff at their own pace.

>(On the other hand, if you understand and want to send me a note of
>support, I could really use it.)

Well, this is the best I can do - I hope it helps.  I know writing it
has helped *me*...

Holly



-- 
Holly McGrath   <enigma@netcom.com> 
1803 Mission Street, #339          
Santa Cruz, CA 95060              
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Newsgroups: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery