From: turnerbl@ucbeh.san.uc.edu
Newsgroups: misc.education,soc.culture.african.american
Subject: Re: What A White Person Learned in College About AfAm Culture
Date: 3 Jan 93 20:08:12 GMT
Organization: Univ. of Cincinnati

In article <1ssowB1w165w@netlink.cts.com>, galan@netlink.cts.com (Greg Gross) writes:
> turnerbl@ucbeh.san.uc.edu writes:
> 
>> .
>> > 
>> > So what's your point?  The sky is blue.  Simple truth.  Also irrelevant.
>> > 
>> >>Like I said, if you don't, you don't. And come to think of it, who cares 
>> >>if you don't?  We hardly need your approval.
>> > 
>> >>Make all the comparisons you wish, for whatever jollies you may derive 
>> >>from it. But when you're done, an apple will still be an apple, an orange 
>> >>will still be an orange, and the experience of different minorities in 
>> >>this country will still be different.
>> > 
>> > Certainly.  And the experiences of different people in this country
>> > will still be different.  But we still find it useful to deal with
>> > groups of people and it is still useful to deal with groups of
>> > minorities
>> 
>> Hi, it's me, the voice of reason.  Sorry to intrude on your debate here, but 
>> have a question?
>> 
>> Just what would make you happy, either of you?
>> 
>> I mean, the nasty tone (exampled above) developing here seem to be de-volving
>> into a loop, he said, he said...  I mean, are not both points justifiable in
>> this society?
>> 
>> I work at a large (36K) public university.  I grew up here, attended school
>> both here and in the deep south.  I have seen both sides of this arguemnet, a
>> both sides feel justified, so, to paraphrase, what's you point?
>> 
>> African-American students feel the very real need to look back and find their
>> basis in this society that is largely indifferent to their needs.  other
>> students don't see the need, because it is not as importnat to them.  Not tha
>> they don't care, when the issue is developed for them, indeed they are
>> sympathetic, but in the large picture, it is just not as importnat to them, a
>> say working to put them selves through school, or even finding a place to par
>> 
>> This is a big world, and i believe that there is room enough for both points 
>> view.  But there is not enough room for people to ignore each other.  
>> 
>> A basic principle i learned in debate.  Listening is not the same thing as
>> waiting to talk.  neither of you are accepting the logic that is the
>> fundamental basis for the other's arguement.
>> 
>> If you both wish to continue this debate, great, but take it to the mail
>> because I am sorely disapointed to pick up thread and see " " " " said" " ", 
>> becomes frustrating.  
>> 
>> How about a new topic, like the horrible failure of the academic system to
>> graduate african american students?  Just a thought.  
>> 
>> back to the bickering
>> 
>> B Turner
>> Admissions Officer
>> University of Cincinnati
>> 
>> 	"Views are my own, and nasty remarks will be giggled at "
> 
> 
> B:
> 
> An interesting topic, indeed. I'm 18 years removed from the academic 
> environment, so it's hard for me to say what's changed and what hasn't 
> where the above-mentioned "failure" is concerned.
> 
> Some things, however, I expect will be perpetual. 
> 
> But as long as you're introducing the topic, let's have your thoughts on 
> it...especially from where you're sitting.
> 
> As for the rest, will deal with that in my own way.
> G.
> 
> --
> Gregory Alan Gross      Welcome to life, where no good deed goes unpunished.
> San Diego Union-Tribune         (619) 293-1270 (voice)
> P.O. Box 191                    (619) 293-1896 (fax)
> San Diego, CA 92112-4106        galan@netlink.cts.com (Internet)


Sorry to have to include all of the above, but for those of you following this
discussion, I will delete it in the future, so take notes <grin>

As far as attrition/matricluation/persistance/graduation rates go (all relate
to similar issues but from diffrent perspectives and percentages) we are not
attracting and retaining or graduating percentages of a-americans in patterns
similar to those of our other populations as I understand it.  I will take a
look around and see if I can find some data about graduation rates comparing
women, men, ethnic groups... and how they fare here at UC.

I sit here at my desk digging through many applications from interested yet
underprepared students.  I see many applicants who simply have not done the
background work that would have placed them in more competative positions.  I
also listen to students.  They tend to blame their instructors ( of what ethnic
background, I do not know) and their counselors.

Parents too are unhappy with the secondary schools preparation of students. 
But the schools themselves are not solely to balme either, as in most cases
they are a reflection/symptom of the populations which they exist to serve.

Students themselves take most of the heat but again they too make most of the
decisions on a day to day basis.  Fair would not be a word used to describe any
of the systems, but then, what system is?

The college I admit for recieves a fair number of A-american applications, low
compared to some other colleges, but more than in the past.  Traditionaly, what
we encounter is that the students are underprerared.

EX:  Students who apply for architecture, yet did not take physics in high
school, but instead took drafting, drawing, computers or vocational-tech
courses.  Why?  May answers but they all tend to revolve around, in my mind, a
couple of issues,  counseling on one side and student choices on the other.

If their counselors are inexperiences and/or over worked ( 1 to 250-500
students is not uncommon in many public schools these days) their time and
patience is limited.  If there is no spark with the student, the counselor is
inclined to place their assets where they will produce more results, as in a 
more fertile field, "better student."

Students too must deal with the fact that while drafting classes are easier and
more fun, most schools want the sciences and maths.  But they, and in most
cases they alone, make the choices.

I too have my own opinions regarding admissions, but in this forum, I dare not. 
But let us say that I have to agree with the people who set the guidelines for
admissions, that it is simply not ethical to throw an underprepard students to
the sharks on the first day of school (in over thier head academicaly) no 
matter what thier ethnic oragin. 

All this leads us to retention...  To me, in my mind, retention is tied to
preparation before college as well as discipline during college.  Considering
that the average attrition among all college students hovers around 50% we are
not doing such a great job on any front.

What to do?  I am stumped.  Take underprepared students just to make us look
good on paper is not the answer and not fair to the student.  Change the system
they are being admited to?  Most would not want that, as they are applying to 
the institution beacuse of its academic reputation in most cases to begin with.

The engineering college here has a summer "bridge program" to help prep
students for their freshman year.  But thay have the funding and facilities as
well as faculty to do it, and most of us don't. 

I don't think that you could find an admissions officer anywhere in the country
who would not like to see a larger pool of qualified students to admit from. 
But the pool is both shrinkinh and growing. 

High school graduation rates are declining (more students dropping out) yet
there are more applicnats to collleges and universities, as well as taking the
sat/act tests. 

Gee, quandry city!  I ahev no real answers, just questions.  Any suggestions?



	
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