HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: bradk%isdgsm@rtsg.mot.com (Brad Kaiser)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Catholics & Faith and Works
Date: 21 Jul 92 07:25:51 GMT
Reply-To: bradk%isdgsm@rtsg.mot.com

In article <Jul.20.02.22.23.1992.9268@dumas.rutgers.edu>
mchung@ee.tamu.edu (Maranatha Chung) writes:

>The verses in James talked about the relationship between work and
>faith. 

I'm not sure it's really that simple.  Note that in v. 24 he says we
are justified by works, and not by faith alone; "justification", in
Catholic teaching, is the first step on the road to salvation.

>But I think the question is the relationship between salvation
>and work/faith in Catholicism. Does faith alone leads to salvation
>or does faith leads to salvation which requires the evidence of work?

Both, and neither; I think the Church's teaching is more subtle than
   your question
would allow.  My reading of the Decree on Justification (Council of
Trent, Session VI) leads me to conclude:

1) A soul is saved by the indwelling of sanctifying grace.

2) For an unbeliever, sanctifying grace is acquired through baptism, a
   baptism which, to confer grace, must be received in a spirit of
   supernatural faith in Jesus Christ.  Note that by "baptism" I do
   not necessarily restrict myself to water baptism, though that is
   certainly the usual form.  The Church also recogizes, in extreme
   circumstances, a "baptism of desire" and a "baptism of blood"
   (i.e., martyrdom).

3) For a believer, sanctifying grace must be re-acquired through the
   Sacrament of Penance (Confession), also received in a spirit of
   faith.  Again, in extremis, the Church recognizes true contrition
   of the heart alone as able to confer grace, althought the usual
   form of this Sacrament involves individual confession to a priest
   who acts "alter Christus" (in Christs' stead) in granting
   absolution.

4) For a believer in whose soul sanctifying grace is already present,
   virtuous works done in the proper spirit (cf. Joe Buehler's post)
   result in an increase of sanctifying grace.
From: dhawk@netcom.com (David Hawkins)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: On judging (a meta comment on the homosexuality discussion)
Date: 23 Jul 92 07:31:25 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)

hedrick@geneva.rutgers.edu writes:

>But if the church
>doesn't take strong and visible action against leaders who stray, how
>can we expect people outside to take us seriously?

I think the people outside are quite convinced that the church is
capable of judging and taking action.  The people outside of the
church would probably be more impressed if it saw the church was
capable of love and compassion.

If you think the media image of the church is of a loving, caring,
soft-hearted place, then we're watching different shows.  

later, david
--
David Hawkins    dhawk@netcom.com
"Half of our mistakes in life arise from feeling where we ought to
think, and thinking where we ought to feel."   -- John Churton Collins
From: gja6234@trex.oscs.montana.edu
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: ARE THERE ANY CHRISTIAN GIFS OUT THERE?
Date: 29 Jul 92 08:16:28 GMT
Reply-To: gja6234@trex.oscs.montana.edu
Organization: Montana State University

What's a "christian gif"?  Anything like a "christian bumper-sticker", or pen
and pencil set, or maybe a "christian tea"?   In all seriousness, I have no
idea what you're asking.

ShalomIn article <Jul.26.14.42.26.1992.3290@dumas.rutgers.edu>,
agr00@ccc.amdahl.com (Anthony G Rose) writes:
>I've been looking for a long time for any Christian computer gifs.
>Does anyone have any or know where I can get some?

[I'd think they had in mind art-work with a Christian theme, either
directly such as pictures based on Biblical stories, or things with
spiritual messages like you see in posters in Christian bookstores.
A lot of us would probably be happy to see just about anything
suitable for an X background that (1) isn't sexist and (2) doesn't
violate copyright law.  I trust anyone collecting "Christian GIFs"
will make sure that they are not scanned from copyrighted works,
at least not without permission.  --clh]
From: ejalbert@jaameri.gsfc.nasa.gov (E. Jason Albert)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Anglican Splinter Groups
Date: 23 Jul 92 06:52:16 GMT
Organization: Oceans & Ice Branch

I have an interest (both academic and personal) in Episcopal splinter groups,
such as

The Reformed Episcopal Church
The Anglican Catholic Church
The American Episcopal Church
The Anglican Church in America
The Diocese of Christ the King
The United Episcopal Church

and others (I am aware of a few more, such as the Anglican Rite Jurisdiction
of the Americas, the Anglican Orthodox Church, and Anglican Rite parishes
in the Polish National Catholic Church).

I was wondering if anyone had any information about these groups.  Also,
more generally, what do people think of the 1979 prayer book as opposed
to the 1928 one (the revision was one of the reasons a lot of these
groups left the Episcopal Church).

Jason
From: jhb@maths.su.oz.au (John Brownie)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: When was REVELATION written ?
Date: 21 Jul 92 06:39:09 GMT
Organization: Sydney University Computing Service, Sydney, NSW, Australia

In <Jul.20.02.22.21.1992.9263@dumas.rutgers.edu> HOLFELTZ@LSTC2VM.stortek.com writes:

>[This is a response to a psoting on the Revelation by
>HERRICKD@astro.cs.hh.ab.com (daniel lance herrick)
>>The usual late twentieth century evangelical interpretation of Revelation
>>would be gibberish to a first century hearer.
>>
>>The book is "Before Jerusalem Fell: The Dating of Revelation" by Kenneth
>>Gentry, Dominion Press.  Great Christian Books wants $16.25 for it.
>--clh]
> 
>Another good book is "Jesus and the Riddle of the Dead Sea Scrolls"
>by Barbara Thiering, and sells for about $23.00

Good in what sense?  There has been quite a ruckus in Australia twice
in recent years.  Barbara Thiering (who is a part-time lecturer in
Religious Studies at the University of Sydney) appeared in a TV
documentary on her ideas just before Easter 1990, which prompted great
debate.  It has all re-emerged with the recent publication of her new
book, "Jesus the Man".

The thing that comes out most clearly in the debate is that no-one in
the field (studies of the Dead Sea Scrolls) agrees with her.  From what
I hear and read of her, she refuses to acknowledge that she could be
wrong at any point.  Her theories are speculation that cannot be
proved, and are accepted by no other scholar in the field (Protestant,
Catholic, Jewish, and non-religious alike).
--
John Brownie
School of Mathematics and Statistics   |    Wycliffe Bible Translators
University of Sydney NSW 2006          |    Graham Rd
Internet: jhb@maths.su.oz.au           |    Kangaroo Ground Vic 3097 AUSTRALIA
From: jrobie@netmbx.netmbx.de (Jonathan Robie)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Homosexuality and the so-called "Christian biblical stance."
Date: 30 Jul 92 07:47:22 GMT
Organization: netmbx, Berlin, Germany

Is anybody familiar with the psychological literature on homosexuality?
"Everybody" seems to know that homosexuality is genetically determined,
but I am having problems finding any articles on the subject that can
tell me exactly what they are calling homosexuality or what is supposed
to be inherited...

Incidentally, I don't think that the Kinsey report's statistics on the
incidence of homosexuality tell us whether homosexual acts are sinful.
I suspect that large percentages of the population lie, cheat on their
income tax, get drunk...


Jonathan

===========================================================================

Jonathan Robie		jrobie@netmbx.UUCP
Arnold-Zweig-Str. 44	jrobie@netmbx.in-berlin.de
O-1100 Berlin		
Deutschland		Phone:  +37 (2) 472 04 19  (Home, East Berlin)
				+49 (30) 342 30 66 (Work, West Berlin)


-- 
Jonathan

[I'd be happy to accept pointers to the literature if anyone knows any,
but I'm not enthusiastic about debates on this subject that are not
based on knowledge.  In fact I don't think many people claim that
it is entirely genetically determined.  What they say is at a
more existential level -- that it's not a choice they have made.
This is consistent with a number of different explanations.  The
summary of the evidence I've seen suggest that there are a number
of different influences, and that different people's sexuality is
determined in different ways.  --clh]
From: gchin@ssf.Eng.Sun.COM (Gary Chin)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Knowing God's will
Date: 30 Jul 92 08:15:57 GMT
Reply-To: gchin@ssf.Eng.Sun.COM
Organization: Sun Microsystems

For many situations, God's will is clearly stated in the Bible.  But, there are
other situations where God's will is not so clear.  I have not had any revelations
from God in dreams or such.  I do get guidance from reading the Bible and I
communicate to God through prayer.  I also have gotten guidance from my wife
that I later realized was God's will:^)  I have also taken on activities at church
when I see the need.

Has anyone else had a clear calling from God for change of career or change of
personal goals?

How did you know and how long did it take you to know?

Please post your personal experiences.

Gary
|-------------------|
| Gary Chin         |
| Staff Engineer    |
| Sun Microsystems  |
| Mt. View, CA      |
| gchin@Eng.Sun.Com |
|-------------------|
From: s37755c@taltta.hut.fi (Jochen Grandell)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Go ahead and Mix (was Re: Dating...Believers and Non)
Date: 22 Jul 92 05:59:18 GMT
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland

In article <Jul.20.01.47.31.1992.2884@dumas.rutgers.edu> das@castle.ed.ac.uk (D Stewart) writes:
>As for 2. I think it is wrong to "date" non-Christians. I agree with a 
>previous posting that God can make "good" come out of these situations
>but that does not mean that it is necessarily right. I would not 
>condemn anyone for "dating" a non-Christian (but I would certainly teach
>my views and explain to anyone who asks). 

	
	I'd be willing to discuss this more. I've only found few types 
	of marriages that are strictly forbidden by the Bible, such as 
	marrying the wife of your father or brother (logical, agreed?). 

	Mk. 6:18
	1Cr. 5:1
	3Mo. 18:6

	What comes to dating or marrying a non-Christian I think it's
	more a question of what is "easier" or "reasonable". Of course, 
	if it is a case of a total atheist and a Cristian, or otherwise a
	person who has no appreciation for your values, whatever they are,
	you may ask why such people should even consider a marriage. That 
	may be possible during the short time of infatuation when you just 
	don't know the other that well. Well, I guess _those_ marriages 
	aren't common. 

	If someone tells me something is wrong, I'd like to hear the 
	reason to him/her saying that. And remember, I'm talking about 
	_wrong_. I'm not trying to start a yes-no -shouting , I'm just 
	willing to see the references to the Bible about this issue.
	I know Catholics and Protestants have somewhat different views 
	on marriage, but let's try to live with it and have a good
	discussion.
	
	Have a beatiful week !

	Jochen

Jochen.Grandell@hut.fi

[Actually I've seen little shouting in this discussion.  I don't think
people have been proposing that it's prohibited.  Rather it's more 
along the line of "All things are lawful for me", but not all things
are helpful.  (1 Cor 6:12).  --clh]
From: gchin@ssf.Eng.Sun.COM (Gary Chin)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Seeking Advice for my Wife
Date: 23 Jul 92 07:01:36 GMT
Reply-To: gchin@ssf.Eng.Sun.COM
Organization: Sun Microsystems

We cannot change another person, especially a spouse.  We need to pray that
we will change to be more of what God wants us to be, ie. a better spouse.

Eph:5:28: So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that
loveth his wife loveth himself.
Eph:5:29: For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and
cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:


This may be humanly impossible, but with God, all things are possible:^)

Gary
From: jacob@max.cc.brandeis.edu ( )
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: adresses sought: Abbaye de Chevetogne (Belgium), Badia di Grotaferata (Italy) sought [?]
Date: 24 Jul 92 06:38:06 GMT
Organization: Brandeis University Math Department

Does any one know of a mailing adress for the (1) Abbaye de Chevetogne in
Belgium and/or the (2) Badia Graeca di S. Maria di Grotaferata (or something
like that, I doubt I've got all the t's and f's and r's right in the name...
in any case it's near Rome)

I don't read this group so please email. Thanks.
From: whheydt@pbhya.pacbell.com (Wilson Heydt)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Apply doubting Thomas to today?  (sort of a summary)
Date: 28 Jul 92 07:34:01 GMT
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA

In article <Jul.26.16.22.45.1992.21398@dumas.rutgers.edu>, brown@ncoast.org (Stan Brown) writes:
> One person brought up an argument that I have heard attributed to
> Pascal: If you believe and it's false you've lost nothing; if you don't
> believe and it's true you've lost everything.  It seems to me that a
> "faith" founded on such a belief is not faith at all, but rather a sort
> of attempt to hedge one's bets without actually being committed.  

I think you are correct about it being Pascal.  Unfortunately, the
proposition fails in a way not (apparently) considered by Pascal.  The
argument as formulated assumes that the only choice is between
Christianity and atheism.  It fails to account for all the *other*
gods and goddesses that peopel believe and have believed in.  Taking
this into account, the formulation becomes one of picking among
several religions, each of which has no *external* verification and
picking no religion at all (and it's non-identical equivalent--for
this purpose--deciding that no choice is indicated).

	--Hal

-- 
Hal Heydt                    |    "Boycott Time-Warner"
Analyst, Pacific*Bell        |         --J. Danforth Quayle
510-823-5447                 |    "... kill all the lawyers."
whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM    |         --William Shakespeare
From: alisonjw@spider.co.uk (Alison J Wyld)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Christian Humor
Date: 29 Jul 92 08:01:50 GMT
Organization: Spider Systems Limited, Edinburgh, UK.

I thought fans of Adrian Plass might like to know he has a new book
out.  Its called "An Alien at St. Wilfred's" and is the story of what
happens when an alien called Nunc (from the prayerbook) takes up
residence in an English Parish Church.

Its a bit gentler than the "Sacred Diary" series, I smiled instead
of crying with laughter, but I thoroughly enjoyed it and it has some
great one-liners.  It also makes a lot of good serious points.  

Those following rec.music.christian might find his comments about
exaggerating to make God sound better relevant to a thread there.

If its available where you are, I heartily recommend it !

Alison
From: acsormd@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (Randall Desmond)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Parable?
Date: 23 Jul 92 07:08:36 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo

In article <Jul.22.02.08.32.1992.13595@dumas.rutgers.edu>, kemery@nmsu.edu writes...

>For reference,  when I was in college at New Mexico Tech,  I was
>witnessing to my best friend.  We had talked for many months,  and
>didn't seem to be getting anywhere.  One day we were out golfing,
>He lost his ball in the rough.  We looked and looked for it.  Finally
>he said "God only knows where my ball is"  without hesitating I said,
>"Well, let's ask Him",  I said a quick prayer,  he looked down and
>was standing almost on top of his ball.  Coincidence?  I think not.

	I'm curious, did you pray "in Jesus's name"? 

	Let me share an experience I had the other night.
	Our university has a freshman orientation student 
	organizations fair, and I was sitting at the booth
	of a not so popular student organization. Out of
	about 6-7 nights of putting on the fair, the booth
	I represented averaged about 2 people a night.
	That's a pretty low turn out.

	Last night, I was bored while sitting there. So I 
	decided to say "Glory to God" and "All praise is 
	for God" and "God is the Greatest", and I thought 
	to myself "Watch, as soon as I do this, God will 
	Will someone to come to the booth."

	Do you know what happened? Someone came to the booth
	and was really sincerely curious about our club.
	And did you know that before I started reciting those 
	words, only one person stopped by and his visit was
	just passing by.

	Well, the reason I asked whether you said the pray in
	Jesus' name was because I didn't. I'm Muslim. My club
	is the Muslim Student Organization, and I, too, believe
	it wasn't just coincidence.

	Thanks for your time,
				Ismail
From: lcrew@andromeda.rutgers.edu (Louie Crew)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: 'X'-Gay:  Two more frauds
Date: 28 Jul 92 06:52:18 GMT
Reply-To: <lcrew@andromeda.rutgers.edu>
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.


             Another "ex-gay" leader admits the "ex-gay" claim is
             a lie.  David Caligiuri, former director of Free
             Indeed an 8-year veteran of Homosexuals Anonymous
             says:  "There's no reality in it.  I was selling a
             product, and my product was a lie."  He says that he
             was engaging in both anonymous homosexual activity
             and in sex with other "ex-gays" in the "ex-gay"
             movement.  According to Caligiuri, "a lot of the HA
             leaders were having sex with one another.  We'd go
             to conferences in other cities and we'd be paired up
             in otel rooms.  Everybody was sleeping with
             everybody else."  He is now studying "alternative
             spiritualities and wants a romantic relationship
             with another man "but not with a Christian."


                                 ------

             "I do not consider myself a homosexual anymore, but
             homosexual feelings have not totally left me...  I'm
             still attracted to men."  This is the testimony of
             Shawn Corkery, assistant director of Desert Stream
             "ex-gay" ministry in southern California.  He claims
             that he has been working toward "healing" in the
             "ex-gay" effort since 1984.


From ~The Record~, Newsletter of Evangelicals Concerned, 311 East 72nd St.,
NYC 10021.   Summer 1992.  Page 3.


-- 
  ==========================================================================
  Louie Crew, Assoc. Prof., Academic Foundations Dept., Rutgers U./NWK 07102
  lcrew@andromeda.rutgers.edu                                   201-485-4503
                    Heteroprivilege Is Against New Jersey Law!
From: pearsodc@nextwork.rose-hulman.edu (D)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Why I'm pursuing this Warnke thing...
Date: 31 Jul 92 07:29:22 GMT
Organization: Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology

Followup-To: soc.religion.christian

I got asked a very good question today by Gary Berger over e-mail, and I  
asked him if he would mind if I posted his question and my reply.  He  
didn't.

---

You wrote:
> I would just be interested, what is your interest and motivation in
> this situation.  Isnt it true that this is really none of your
> business until this is settled?

Hum...

A very difficult question to answer indeed.  My intrest here is purely to  
get to the truth about a man who was once one of my heroes, and my  
motivation in making these posts to s.r.c. and r.m.c. is to (a) get the  
truth and (b) fill others in on the news I get.  My postings and the  
conclusions I have been drawing have been (IMHO) very objective (if I was  
to have any bias in the situation, it would be toward Mike Warnke) and I  
have nothing to gain in the matter except the ability to do some informed  
praying.

Which is really why this _is_ my business, and yours too.  Mike Warnke is  
my brother in Christ, and as such I pray constantly that the truth about  
Mike's testimony and Warnke Ministries will be known, and whoever's lying  
in this matter (and the evidence points to the fact that Mike Warnke _is_  
lying) will come clean and recieve the forgiveness of Christ.

It may be a good idea if I made that fact clear to both boards;  would you  
mind if I posted your question and my reply to s.r.c. and r.m.c.?

Thanks for asking...

clueless chuck

---

Comments?  (If you have any, with apologies to the s.r.c. moderator,  
direct them to soc.religion.christian...we really don't need to take up  
r.m.c bandwidth with something that has little to do with Christian  
music...agreed?)

clueless chuck
PearsoDC@NeXTWork.Rose-Hulman.Edu

[Since Mike Warnke has made many well-publicized claims about
Satanism, and has been relied on by many Christians, I think serious
questions about his truthfulness are important to the community.  On
the other hand, I'm not sure I'm interested in a blow by blow account
of arguments.  --clh]
From: REXLEX@fnalf.fnal.gov
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Please Prove it to me!
Date: 30 Jul 92 07:47:47 GMT
Organization: Fermilab

In article <Jul.29.04.53.17.1992.26569@dartagnan.rutgers.edu>
studman@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Daniel Tseng) writes:
>Hello out there,
>	Currently I am as you might say a "non-believer", and I've been trying
>to accept the basic premise of Christianity, the belief that Jesus was our
>Savior and gave his life for our sins.  Now that's great and everything, but
>it's very difficult for me to accept something without some sort of proof of
>this.

Rather than give a list of arguements, you could purchased a book and read
about it in the comforts of your own home.  THe book is called "Evidence
Demands A Verdict" by Josh MacDowell.  Actually there are 3 in the series now I
think, but the first one should do you.  It presents extra Biblical and
Biblical proofs.  Any good Christian book store should have it or can order it
for you.  

Rex