From: tlynch@cco.caltech.edu (Timothy W. Lynch)
Subject: Re: DATELINE: Bush fucks up!
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 04:12:29 GMT

eyc@acpub.duke.edu (EMIL CHUCK) writes:
>chrisl@stpaul.gov (Chris A Lyman) writes:

>!Amen and preach it sister!  Some time ago in talk.abortion, I read a 
>!harrowing narrative by a woman who had given herself an abortion with
>!a sterilized knitting needle.  She described the pain as 'excruciating,'
>!and said that she bled for days.  Her reason?  Her father had stated that 
>!he would kill any daughter of his who became pregnant before marriage
>!and she had every reason to believe him.  I wish I'd saved the article;
>!it's very worthwhile reading.
>!
>!I wish even more that, before they glibly spout their fetus worship, pro-
>!forced-birthers would take the time to reflect on what circumstances would
>!cause a woman to risk her life in order not to be pregnant.

>I assume that the pregnancy was the result of consentual sex. Otherwise
>I don't think she should have had that much to fear from her father.

First, I suggest you read the piece; Adrienne Regard has reposted it, and it
makes for *very* compelling reading.  (Worrying and depressing, as well.)

Second, I think one of the whole points of this story is:  SO WHAT if it
was the result of consensual sex?  Regardless of how it came about, this
pregnancy was simply *not* something she was prepared to deal with at that
point in time, PERIOD.  

It happens.  It sucks.  But it is not impossible.  And it is a very real 
reason why any attempt to ban abortion would cause infinitely more problems
than it attempted to solve.

I ask you, Emil, and any other pro-lifers willing to give me an answer:
Read STella's story.  Think about it.  And think about whether that is the
situation you'd like to go back to.  When some young girls, through no 
fault of their own, are stuck between the options of nearly killing themselves
or of *being* killed solely for being pregnant.

>On the other hand if her father were really that serious about killing
>his daughter over premarital pregnancy, then I am very grieved over the
>situation. His statement certainly is not indicative of a very healthy
>family relationship. 

Exceedingly true.

If he cannot accept that sometimes threatening to
>kill someone doesn't help, then the father truly does not understand
>how to encourage trust and love in the family. Besides, if he did kill
>her, he'd be charged with TWO counts of murder. 

Actually, he wouldn't, so far as I know.  The legalities simply don't work that
way.

>	I submit though that this stance is not taken by all fathers to
>their daughters. 

Of course it's not.  But I fail to see what that has to do with anything.  
Some pro-life rhetoric talks about how "even one abortion is one too many"
because one "unborn child" is killed.  Well, here's where you get to see
how it feels; even one of these situations is one too many.

>This story is very tough to swallow, as I'm sure there
>are equally emotional stories that the pro-lifers ("forced-birthers")
>can write up and submit to the net. 

Yes, I'm sure there are.  However, there's an important difference:  the pro-
choice stance is not suggesting that anybody who does not wish an abortion
should get one.  Thus, while a sob story for the pro-life cause could un-
doubtedly be tragic, I don't see how the pro-choice community could somehow
be *responsible* for it.

>No side wins in the above story: she
>did not need to have performed a self-induced abortion, 

Read the piece.  It was that, run away from home and live on the streets,
or DIE.  You want to back up that statement?

>and if she had a
>legal abortion, I doubt this action could have helped her relationship
>with her father. Making abortion available to this woman I doubt helped
>her family be more closer and more trusting.

Assuming you mean "would help her family...", since legal and safe abortion
was NOT available, no, it probably wouldn't help her relationship with her
father.  I don't recall anyone claiming it would.  But it *would* give her
a safe and legal way out of the mess she found herself in, rather than
running a very real risk of death from a self-induced abortion.

Read the piece.  Then come back and answer this; I'll be interested to see
if there's any change.

Tim Lynch 
BITNET:  tlynch@citjuliet
INTERNET:  tlynch@juliet.caltech.edu
UUCP:  ...!ucbvax!tlynch%juliet.caltech.edu@hamlet.caltech.edu
"We need a leader who will stop the Republican attempt - through laws 
and through the courts - to tell us what God to believe in, and how 
to apply that God's judgment to our schoolrooms, our bedrooms and
our bodies. "
			-- Gov. Mario Cuomo, 7/15/92
Xref: sparky talk.politics.misc:39755 alt.politics.clinton:1953 alt.politics.bush:1607