From: kish@kish.rutgers.edu (Kish)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Where is the navel chakra
Date: 16 Nov 92 17:28:38 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

+ ::
+ ::I (William Tucker) think:
+ ::
+ ::That the Hara and the 3rd chakra or solar plexus chakra are not the 
+ ::same thing. I have a book specifically on the Hara, and it's spoken 
+ ::of more in the way that Aikido masters speak of the center of balance
+ ::and intent or purpose.
+ :
+ :The solar plexus is just below the sternum, where you get "gut
+ :feelings".  The Tan T'ien (also called the Hara) is about two inches
+ :below the naval.  The Tan T'ien is the main center of focus in Chinese
+ :Kung Fu (and other martial arts as well, such as Aikido).  They are
+ :not the same centers.
+ :

	Let me lend a few more details here.  In "Three Pillars of
Zen" by Kapleau Roshi on page 14, there is an interesting comment
about the hara which I haven't encountered anywhere else yet:

	According to Hindu and Buddhist yogic systems, there
	are a number of psychic centers in the body through
	which vital cosmic force or energy flows. Of the two
	such centers embraced within the hara, one is associated
	with the solar plexus, whose system of nerves governs 
	the digestive processes and organs of elimination.

Unfortunately, he doesn't elaborate the structure of the hara beyond
this. Plenty of the usual statements about the virtues of focusing
your attention there and so on, but no reference to the second chakra
of the hara :(
	Now Hungyeow Lye has made mention of the so-called "secret
chakra" which is talked about in Tibetan Vajrayana, and let me cite
Geshe Kelsang Gyatso's text on Mahamudra practice called "Clear Light
of Bliss" to back him up.  On page 19 he (K.G.) lists the chakras in
the system he is expounding and the approximate location of each, and
he places the secret-chakra roughly four finger-widths below the
navel, in between the Manipura and Svadisthana chakras.	Adding one and
one in the most obvious way would seem to indicate that the hara is
comprised of the Manipura chakra and the secret chakra, but I put this
forward cautiously.  
	Another thread which, while not directly supportive of the
above, seems coincident, is from Lama Govinda's "Foundation of Tibetan
Mysticism", in the section called "Integration" (I know its in that
section, but I don't have the text in front of me). In discussing the
so-called sushuma (a central nadi which runs through the spinal
column) he places its base four fingers below the navel.  Lama Govinda
then points us at Evans-Wentz's translation of "The Epitome of the
Great Symbol (Mahamudra)" for further information.  On page 132 of
"Tibetan Yoga and Secret Doctrines" we find the following:

	(65) By tying the elephant of the mind to the pillar of
	the cognizing faculity and the cognizer, each of the 
	vital airs is kept in its own channel.
	(66) Through the effects produced by this practice there
	come smoke-like or ethereal shapes, and the ecstatic bliss
	whereby one almost swooneth.

(66) also has a footnote which states "These results are due to the
vital airs (aka winds) finding their way into the the median nerve
(Skt. sushumma-nadi), which is the chief channel for the flow of
psychic forces ...".  This quote is very reminiscent of Harada Roshi
admonishing students to "put their minds in the pit of their belly !".
	The quotes from Lama Govinda and Evans-Wentz raise an
interesting situation with respect to the way Buddhists and Hindus
view subtle anatomy.  For Hindus, the chakra at the base of the
sushuma is the Muladhara chakra, usually placed somewhere near the
base of the spine.  It would seem that Hindus and Buddhists agree that
practitioners should focus their attention at the base of the sushuma,
but they differ with respect to how things are organised below the
Manipura chakra.  Its not clear to me whether in actual practice this
really matters, but it is worth noting and perhaps trying to
understand more fully.
	An amusing observation with respect to Evans Wentz is his use
of the phrase "the elephant of the mind".  The elephant also happens
to be part of the symbology associated with the Muladhara as the
carrier of the seed syllable Lam (page 142 of Arthur Avalon's "The
Serpent Power").  I realize that "elephant" can be figurative for a
veritable legion of referents, but I think it is mildly significant in
this context.
	 Also worth noting, on page 115 of the same work, is the
following:

	The first centre, or Muladhara-Cakra, which is so called
	from its being the root of Susumna where Kundali [sic]
	rests, is at the place of meeting of the Kanda (root of 
	all the Nadis) and the Susumna-Nadi, and is the region 
	midway between the genitals and the anus.  It is thus the 
	center of the body for men.

This Kanda, by virtue of it being described as the "root of all
Nadis", seems very hara like to me. And yet "the center of the body",
also very hara-like, is actually attributed to the Muladhara by virtue
if it being located at the junta of sushuma and Kanda.

lorenzo:
+ 
+ Then (sychronicity kicks in once again) I came across a book about
+ Tantra which placed the third chakra below the navel. I have another
+ book here, _Tools for Tantra_, by Harish Johari, that names both the
+ solar plexus and the navel as being associated with the third chakra.
+ 
+ .......
+ 
+ So I am getting a broad range of overlap/disagreement from my various
+ sources. I can't yet see what is going on myself. However, I operate
+ on the model that different people will see differently, and are
+ perhaps touching different parts of the elephant.
+ 
+ What I was hoping for was the big picture, since I have found all
+ these smaller pictures to have validity. Some more encompassing
+ metaphor, perhaps. 
+ 

	With respect to putting together the "big picture", I think
the following quote on page 136 of Mary Scott's "Kundalini in the
World" is helpful:

	Paramount stress is laid in Kundalini science on the
	central Nadis in the subtle body and the seven major
	Chakras which modify behavior in specific ways.  As
	well as these main energy pathways and force centres
	in the vital and mental counterparts of the gross body,
	there are innumerable subsidiary paths and lesser 
	Chakras.

So there may in fact be a larger system at work here which can
encompass both the Hindu and Taoist systems, and maybe it is worth
trying to integrate the existing bodies of knowledge.  Quite honestly,
this "secret-chakra" in Tibetan systems seems like a compromise to me.
At least for now I think Lama Govinda makes the most sense in saying
that the critical thing in practicing is to visualize the subtle
anatomy clearly.  I suspect either system (or a close variant) will
"work" if it is done with a clear, lucid mind.

Hope this has muddied the water sufficiently :)


Yours in Dharma,
-Bill
-- 

PHONE: (908) 932-5026
UUCP : {ames,att,harvard}!uunet!rutgers!jove.rutgers.edu!kish
INTERNET: kish@jove.rutgers.edu
Newsgroups: talk.environment