HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (Eric S. Perlman)
Subject: Re: BILL CLINTON ON ISRAEL AND THE MIDDLE
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 16:43:10 GMT

In article <25238@castle.ed.ac.uk> egpv29@castle.ed.ac.uk (JHenderson) writes:
>In article <1992Aug26.173825.23137@colorado.edu> perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (Eric S. Perlman) writes:
>=>In article <1992Aug26.125404.7896@dscomsf.desy.de> Hallam@zeus02.desy.de writes:
>=>>They showed a marked preference for the Castro regime over the US imposed
>=>>Batista regime which turned Cuba into a whorehouse for rich american playboys.
>=>>
>=>>The US had her chance to bring democracy to Cuba after she invaded. Instead Cuba
>=>>was run as a colony until Castro.
>=>
>=>While the Batista regime was certainly not a nice one, anyone who would
>=>call the Castro regime anything approaching democracy needs their head
>=>examined.
>
>No-one said that tha Castro regime was a democracy, only that the Cubans
>preferred it to being run by a thug like Batista.

Jeremy, please go back and read Phill's original statement, which I
commented on a few days ago.  He clearly chalked up the US boycott of
Cuba to the US administration disagreeing that "the Cuban people had
more right to choose their leaders than the US."  That's historical
revisionism at its worst, and is right in line with how I interpreted
what Phill said.  My original remark was "the Cuban people *Chose*
Castro?  What planet are you from?", and I stand by it.


-- 
"How sad to see/A model of decorum and tranquillity/become like any other sport
A battleground for rival ideologies to slug it out with glee." -Tim Rice,"Chess"
     Eric S. Perlman 				 <perlman@qso.colorado.edu> 
  Center for Astrophysics and Space Astronomy, University of Colorado, Boulder
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: hallam@zeus02.desy.de (Phill Hallam-Baker)
Subject: Re: BILL CLINTON ON ISRAEL AND THE MIDDLE
Reply-To: Hallam@zeus02.desy.de
Organization: Deutsches Elektronen Synchrotron, Experiment ZEUS bei HERA
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 13:20:51 GMT

In article <1992Aug25.011556.7264@midway.uchicago.edu>, rivk@ellis.uchicago.edu
(nora gayle rivkis) writes:
|>In article <1992Aug24.144701.20071@dscomsf.desy.de> Hallam@zeus02.desy.de
|>writes:
|>
|>>Would it not be more reasonable to accept that the Mufti and Shamir are not
|>>representative of the people they lead? 
|>
|>Yes. I'll drop both halves if you will.
|>
|>>In the case of Shamir there is a point
|>>to the debate since he is still nominal leader of a political party. 
|>
|>Look at your own previous sentence, Phil -- and drop it, as you yourself
|>requested. But wuit this double standard whereby you can say "we should
|>stop talking about either of them" and then right away go and talk about
|>one of them.

At no time have I ever claimed that Shamir is in any way representative of the
Israeli people. Since most of the Israelis I meet consider Shamir to be at best
mentaly deficient, this would be a ludicrous statement.

However Shamir is reperesentative of the Likud party, or at the very least
demonstrates the sort of person they are prepared to tolerate as leader.


|>You will note, while you're at it, that Shamir was recently kicked out
|>of national office by a massive margin.

Yes and in the hope that it might assist in continuing  this happy circumstance
I will continue to dredge the skeleton's out of Shamir's closet.

If someone on the net wants to start claiming that the Mufti was not a fascist
then I would be quite happy to engage in the debate. Since it is only in
Shamir's case that there are some who deny that participating in an offer to
collaborate with the NAZIs should disqualify him from holiding any sort of
office this is the only area in which there is debate.

--

Phill Hallam-Baker
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,alt.war
From: jac54@cas.org ()
Subject: Iraqi weaponry, was Re: Soviet Nuclear Weapons Stolen?
Followup-To: talk.politics.mideast
Organization: Chemical Abstracts Service, Columbus, Ohio
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 13:59:41 GMT

In article <BtLE5A.EDw@news.cso.uiuc.edu> daniels@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Daniel R. Sawyer) writes:
>snggab01@uctvax.uct.ac.za writes:
>
>>Who was it that provided Saddam with arms for nearly ten years to bomb and maim
>>Iranian and Kurdish civilians ? Who subsequently bombed Iraq and killed or
>>injured nearly 40000 civilians. ? Who has now been providing arms to Syria
>>as a warm newly found friend ? James Baker was on television shaking the hand
>>of Hafez Assad,a hand that was slippery with blood.
>
>Yep, that was the U.S.  Although others certainly helped.  But we should give
>credit (or discredit) where it is due.  I think the bribe deal to get Syria
>into the war by giving them Lebanon and God knows what else was bad.  We'll
>regret it later, I regret it now.

	Let's get this right.  There are not, and never were, any U.S.
	weapons in the Iraqi inventory.  Soviet, French, Italian, Brazilian,
	and others, yes, but no American weapons.  The U.S. loaned the
	Iraqis a lot of money that was supposed to go towards other
	things, supporting the civilian infrastructure in the main.

	The burden of proof now lies with you to demonstrate that such
	monies were used, with the knowledge of the U.S., to finance
	weapons purchase and development.

	My source for the Iraqi inventory was the "The World Defence
	Almanac 1990-91" which is a special edition of "The Balance of
	Military Power" published by SIPRI if I remember correctly.

	Don't assume I'm acting as an apologist for the Iraqis, the
	Ba'athists, or the Republicans.  I worry a lot about the
	first group but have little time for the other two.

	Alec Chambers
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: barrak@tramp.Colorado.EDU (HADI MOHAMMED F)
Subject: Re: Religion and Politics (was: Re: CLINTON SPEECH TEXT...)
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 05:18:57 GMT

In article <1992Aug29.132722.25804@cs.brown.edu> dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) writes:
> >jle@locus.com (John Elghani/10000000) writes:
> >#
> >#I told you, you should not carry the name "Mohammed".  Islam and
> >#politics cannot be separated.  Recall that the Prophet established
> >#a government.  Read the Quran and the Serat,  both are full of
> >#governmental guidance.
> >
> >Is this commonly accepted among Muslims? I always thought that

Yes it is. This originates from the Prophet Mohammed's effective
manipulation of the political events around him which made him an
immediate success story as opposed to Jesus and Moses for example.

I, by the way, agree with you and Anwar that Islam (and religions in
general) should have only limited involvement in politics, especially 
in societies that have sizable non-Moslem populations in them, like 
Sudan (27%), Lebanon (36%), Indonisia (13.1%), ...etc.

> >
> >That is not to say that the principals of religion should not be
> >applied in certain state matters, but the political hierarchy
> >should not be composed of the religious leaders.
> >
> >-Danny Keren.
> >
> >
> >

---barrak

Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:19245 alt.war:1866
From: aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Anisa Alnoor Aldoubosh)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,alt.war
Subject: Re: Soviet Nuclear Weapons Stolen? / The Count
Date: 27 Aug 92 19:47:39 GMT
Followup-To: talk.politics.mideast
Organization: University of Colorado at Denver

In article <1992Aug27.121902.16005@edf.fr> manuel@clt53lx.edf.fr (Jose Manuel ESTEVEZ "clt50bx") writes:
>	IRAN is not a democratic country like all the Middle East countries Israel include .

Again, you have to define democracy.  If it means having a free and open
election, then yes, democracy can apply.  There was a huge thread stemming
from Israel and Democracy (being axonyms) last year and no one could
actually define Israeli democracy to be comparable to 'justice', 'freedom'
and inalienable rights to *all*, regardless of race, creed, etc. - only that
Israel holds free elections.

Now in the case of Iran, there was an election.  And the people chose
an Islamic government.  The same in Algeria.  And who is to say that
Islam to Muslim people (whether by name or acknowledgement of such
by pure belief) and such traditional societies in the Middle East is
not democratic and that you can judge or compare it to western standards?

Since the 'Third World' is at the mercy of the 'First World' economically,
it seems as though the West has always been trying to enforce its
capitalistic ideology on the Middle East so as to ensure its complete
domination over the people.  Does that make it right or Islamic countries
non-democratic?  Do Muslims have to compromise their beliefs and way of
life to suit Western philosophy as a means of being accepted and recognized?

I believe you need to clarify your position here.

Anisa
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:19303 alt.flame:12406
From: exuptr@exu.ericsson.se (exuptr@exu.ericsson.se)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,alt.flame
Subject: Re: U.S. Plans to overfly & control southern Iraq, improper?
Date: 28 Aug 92 12:50:02 GMT
Organization: Ericsson Network Systems, Inc.

In article <2a9c43af.crud@crud.mn.org> trashman@crud.mn.org (Barry Schwartz) writes:
>From: trashman@crud.mn.org (Barry Schwartz)
>Subject: Re: U.S. Plans to overfly & control southern Iraq, improper?
>Date: 27 Aug 92 05:42:00 GMT

>In article <BtC5vA.4Hz.2@cs.cmu.edu>
>        anwar+@cs.cmu.edu (Anwar Mohammed) writes:

>]We have
>]already stood by while the Iraqi government slaughtered hundreds of thousands
>]of its own citizens through its own blockades of food and medicine from a 
>]majority of its population and military action after it was defeated in the 
>]Gulf War.   We cannot allow the slaughter to contintue.

>Yeah, let's get it over with quickly.


"If he really thinks we're the devil, hen let's send him to hell."
                            - Blue Oyster Cult
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "This must be Thursday.  I never could get the hang of Thursdays"
                                                       - D Adams
  - Patrick Taylor
    Ericsson Network Systems
    exuptr@exu.ericsson.se                       "Don't let the .se fool you"
    alternately, exuptr@ZGNews.Lonestar.Org
From: egpv29@castle.ed.ac.uk (JHenderson)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: BILL CLINTON ON ISRAEL AND THE MIDDLE
Date: 28 Aug 92 09:00:00 GMT
Organization: Edinburgh University

In article <1992Aug27.101737.5090@rs.com> horen@rs.com writes:
=>
=>Fuck you, asshole.

Am I supposed to be impressed by this dazzling argument?



-- 
==================================================================
-Jeremy Henderson            |  Une souris verte
 egpv29@castle.ed.ac.uk	     |  Qui courrait dans l'herbe
==================================================================
Xref: sparky talk.politics.soviet:7272 soc.culture.europe:7677 soc.history:7669
From: michael.polymenakos@factory.com (Michael Polymenakos) 
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.europe,soc.history
Subject: RE: HOW LONG WILL GREEKS
Date: 23 Aug 92 02:35:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Invention Factory's BBS - New York City, NY - 212-274-1243v.32bis
Reply-To: michael.polymenakos@factory.com (Michael Polymenakos) 


 Yet another reply to Mr Mutlu's lies and misinformation has been posted
to S.C.GREEK and S.C.TURKISH _ONLY_.
 Those really interested in the topic, look for my replies there.

 Those not interested at all, just wait a couple of hours, and you will
see my postings quoted by mr Mutlu all over the place, with endless
insults and texts from his horror archives appended.

 Oh, well.

 Michael.
From: wiener@duke.cs.duke.edu (Edward Wiener)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Confederation of the Mountain Peoples
Date: 3 Sep 92 17:50:40 GMT
Organization: Duke University Computer Science Dept.; Durham, N.C.


Mikhail Verbitsky writes:

>There are four kinds of different ethnic peoples in Abkhazia:
>Georgian-Mingrels (~20-30%) - supporters of Gamsahurdia,
>"real" Georgians - (~10-20%) - supporters of Tbilisi goverment
>Russians (~10-20%) - well, they are trying to move away now,
>       and support nobody in particular
>Abkhazians (~30-40%) - support Sukhumi goverment.



      Mingrelians are one of many subgroups which make up
      the Georgian nation.  They should not be distinguished
      from "real" (!!) Georgians.  Moreover, Abkhaz constitute
      no more than 15% (or thereabouts) of the population of
      Abkhazia.

-- Edward Wiener
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.soviet
From: oleg@watson.ibm.com (Oleg Vishnepolsky)
Subject: Re: Shafarevich and National Academy
Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1992 18:07:06 GMT
News-Software: IBM OS/2 PM RN (NR/2) v0.11 by O. Vishnepolsky and R. Rogers
Reply-To: oleg@watson.ibm.com (Oleg Vishnepolsky)
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

In  <Bu0FsM.7A7@apollo.hp.com>  goykhman_a@apollo.hp.com (Alex Goykhman) writes:
> In article <1992Sep03.133454.24256@watson.ibm.com> oleg@watson.ibm.com (Oleg Vishnepolsky) writes:
> >>  I say, expel the anti-semitic bastard.
> >
> >If National Academy of Sciences starts judging its members on
> >criterias that have nothing to do with science, it will damage its
> >own image.
>
>     Should then Dr.Mengele become an Honorary Member of NAS
>     because of the unique medical experiments he conducted
>     in the Nazi concentration camps?

No, and for the same reason as Marx and Lenin, they did not do
their experiments on dogs as true scientists should have.

>  It should keep its nose out of its members prejudices
> >equally as it keeps it out of their bedrooms.
>
>     You seems to be confusing one's private and public
>     behaviour.  Shafarevich is an outspoken anti-semit,
>     and as such does not belong to NAS.

You know me - I dislike anti-Semitism as much as you do,
but as soon as one starts to apply non-scientific criterias to science,
the latter becomes non-scientific too. I say, let NAS judge its members
on scientific merits only. Not that they are listening to either of us.

Oleg
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
From: edvax@pyrite.SOM.CWRU.edu (Weyland Yutani Ltd)
Subject: Re: No 'Palikarya' Was Ever Polished Quite Like This: Poor 'Pol*.'
Organization: Ozone Depleting Shoulder Launched Stealth FAXs, Inc.
Date: 26 Aug 92 09:26:13


Mr. Hasan B. Mutlu - net.terrorist.

The grotto creature from the gutters of Ankara.  
Muslims living in peace together with Jews? This I've got to see.  I
thought all Kafirs were supposed to go to hell.  Weren't you supposed
to get a medal from allah if you killed one?

What do your posts have to do with the xSoviet Union/CIS???
Do you want your great land of Turkie to become part of the CIS?

Do you have problems following newsgroup names?

Do you have a full-time job?  Where in the world do you find the time
to write up all this drivel of yours?  Do you live in cabinet 34,
folder 7, of sub-paragraph 19 in Gobel's Propaganda Ministry?

Is prof. Shaw related to you?  Why don't you quote him to me for the
billionth time.   Is it possible for you to post without forging
headers?

Can you be trained to post to correct newgroups.

have a sick day.



--
Bus error, core dumped
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
From: f33012l@puukko.hut.fi (Janne Kivel{)
Subject: Re: Democratic Estonia
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 08:01:53 GMT

boris@cashew.ctr.columbia.edu (Boris Varshavsky) writes:

>Recently somebody here (Mark Hubey?) mentioned 1809-1917 as a period
>of colonization of Finland by Russia. It provoced me to the question:
>
>For more than a century it might be some Russian population in Finland
>(and even not in a one generation), as a result of metropolia's "activity".

There were some Russian soldiers in Finland when the Finnish Civil war
was fought in 1918 and they were driven out.

Finland was mostly governed by Swedish-speaking elite and there was
little administrative personnel from Russia. Despite the two Russification
attempts there were relatively few Russians living on the Finnish soil.

I believe some Russian nobles traveled through Finland when they escaped 
the revolution. This includes some of the Czar's relatives. These people 
didn't, of course, stay in a backward country like Finland, but went 
further to Western Europe.

About 30 000 Finns fled from Russia after the October revolution. Some 
people stayed and their fate was very grim in the hands of Joe Stalin.

The Russian aristocrats lost their beautiful summer homes in the Karelian
coast near Terijoki (now Zhelenogorsk). Some of these villas still exist,
but are in a very bad shape.

> Boris Varshavsky	boris@ctr.columbia.edu	|  Let        |

Janne Kivela"
From: julie@eddie.jpl.nasa.gov (Julie Kangas)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Coup Book and Video List
Date: 25 Aug 92 16:38:46 GMT
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, CA

In article <1992Aug25.161955.12605@gtech.com> ayr@gtech.com (Aleksey Y. Romanov) writes:
>In article <1992Aug25.145608.5546@mahendo.jpl.nasa.gov> julie@eddie.jpl.nasa.gov (Julie Kangas) writes:
>>BOOKS
>>-----
>>Pozner, Vladimir, _Eyewitness_ 1991
>>	Account of the coup from Pozner.  Has a good deal
>>	of background on the plotters and the political scene
>>	before the coup.
>Posner is a profecsonal (and he is very good in this profession) lyer.

How is he a liar?  I really am curious about this.

Julie
#include "std_disclaimer.h"
#include "witty_sig.h"
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Georgia
From: verbit@brauer.harvard.edu (Mikhail S. Verbitsky)
Date: 28 Aug 92 02:03:09 EDT
Organization: Dept. of Math, Harvard Univ.

In article <Aug.27.21.07.49.1992.14260@pilot.njin.net> hubey@pilot.njin.net (Hubey) writes:

>Does anyone know who/what is this Confederation of Mountain Peoples
>is about ?

There was one C. of M. P. during the last revolution (1918-1920).
Dagestan, Chechen ang Cherkes mountain people's union made up by some Turkish
refugee Khan (Bei or Emir). CMP wanted independence from Russia and
was heavily sponsored by Georgia. The contemporary organization (which is
named to commemorate late one) is organized by Dudaev (as far as I know),
and, mostly, is his tool to pursue Caucasus' independence from Russia.
Actually, it is nothing more than a consultative organization,
like EC when it was created, but in the state of anarchy 
on the territory of xSU it has no less power than some real 
organization. Note that most of authonomous Caucasian republics
are playing in independence (as real as Russian power there,
i. e., imaginary). They are playing in military union as well.

If they (CMP) will declare war to Georgia, there will be a lot
of volunteers wanting to help their oppressed brothers, though
it has no legal power to declare the war.

Misha.
Xref: sparky talk.politics.soviet:7614 soc.culture.soviet:7023
From: goykhman_a@apollo.hp.com (Alex Goykhman)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.soviet
Subject: Re: Shafarevich and National Academy
Date: 3 Sep 92 16:00:13 GMT
Article-I.D.: apollo.Bu0F4D.6tL
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Chelmsford, MA

In article <OLEG.92Sep2230531@sblapis1.cs.sunysb.edu> oleg@cs.sunysb.edu (Oleg Sokolsky) writes:
>goykhman_a@apollo.hp.com (Alex Goykhman) writes, concerning Shafarevich's 
>membership in the Academy of Sciences:
>
>>    I say, expel the anti-semitic bastard.
>
>I don't think so. My argument will most probably cause an avalanche of flames,
>so be it. Remember a famous episode of an Academy Presidium Session (even if it
>is folklore):
>
>CHAIRMAN: Today we face an unprecedented act, we are about to expel a member of
>	  the Academy, which has never happened before...
>
>K.:       Why, it has happened at least once: Einstein was expelled from the
>	  German Academy...
>
>I'm not trying to compare Shafarevich to the man involved here -- God forbid, they
>are incomparable. But the same argument applies to every person. Don't behave like
>the worst did. Be civilized!

    Every civilized society develops certain moral criterias and applies them
    to its members.  For example, our society (hopefully) rejects anti-semitism 
    as being morally unacceptable.

    Just because both the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany had a set of moral 
    standards based on racial, religious and political intolerance does not mean 
    that we should abandon ours.

    I have no problems with Shafarevich joing the Yugoslavian or Iraqi
    Academy of Sciences, but he should be expelled from the NAS.






-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Disclaimer: all opinions are mine.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: simon1@bass.bu.edu (Simon Streltsov)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Coup Book and Video List
Date: 25 Aug 92 22:28:53 GMT
Reply-To: simon1@bass.bu.edu (Simon Streltsov)
Followup-To: talk.politics.soviet
Organization: Boston University

In article <1992Aug25.193322.9433@mahendo.jpl.nasa.gov> julie@eddie.jpl.nasa.gov (Julie Kangas) writes:
>In article <1992Aug25.181213.13855@gtech.com> ayr@gtech.com (Aleksey Y. Romanov) writes:
>>Posner is a professional (and he is very good in this profession) lyer.

>>For years he was a political commentator of Moscow foreign bradcast providing
>>foreign listeners with all sorts of lies about real situation in xUSSR.
>
>I can't remember exactly, but he does talk about changing all his beliefs. 
>So, maybe he's had a change of heart or maybe he is still a liar.
>I guess a professional liar would easily know what opinions he
>should spout based on the political circumstances and write his
>books accordingly.

I have a question  for those, who are in some Russian studies in the
universities:
a/ did your professors taught about 1991 coup ?
b/ did they/you use Posner's book or something like that?
c/ is there some "academic" theory about these events,
 which is widely accepted?


Thanks in advance


Simon Streltsov			    	! Disclaimer :
PhD Student,				! I can not speak for the
Dept. of Manufacturing Engineering	! Engineering Dept, ONLY because
Boston University			! I claim to be a mathematician..



Xref: sparky talk.politics.soviet:7510 soc.culture.europe:7906
From: cza@troy.uucp (22141-akgun)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.europe
Subject: Re: CLINTON ON ARMENIAN GENOCIDE
Date: 30 Aug 92 15:57:03 GMT
Article-I.D.: walter.1992Aug30.155703.17020
Organization: Bell Communications Research, Navesink, NJ

In article <1992Aug29.231438.19137@leland.Stanford.EDU> arto@leland.Stanford.EDU (Artavazd Khachikian) writes:
>
>The Genocide of 1915, years of communist dictatorship, and the devastating
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>earthquake of 1988 have caused great suffering in Armenia during this
>century. But the Armenian people have braved these hardships heroically,
>and they have emerged with their dignity as a free nation. The more than
>one million Armenians living in America have brought with them a culture
>rich in history that has benefitted our country ".

The crux of the matter is explained at the last
statement.  If there are more than 1 million Turks are
living in U.S. as potential voters, "slick" Willy, as
they call him at this neck of the woods, would sing a 
different tune.  He also made Greek Americans feel 
so good when he uttered what he things about Cyprus
issue.  Whatelse is new?  Why this is so
important for s.c.e followers to know?

C. Akgun
Xref: sparky talk.politics.soviet:7601 soc.culture.europe:8040