HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mkkuhner@phylo.genetics.washington.edu (Mary K. Kuhner)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: P/pagan bashing--how to stop it
Date: 20 Aug 92 01:23:10 GMT
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle

Here in the Seattle area, one of the public libraries sponsored a
series of panel discussions on religion.  The third discussion was
entitled something like "Outside the Mainstream" and included Tibetian 
Buddhism, Nichirin Daishowen Buddhism, Scientology, Theosophy, Krishna
Consciousness, Sufiism and a speaker from my own chapter of CUUPS (who
talked about both paganism and Unitarianism, since she's both).

It was a wonderful discussion, much less argumentative and more personal
than I'd expected.  The librarian who sponsored it asked the speakers to
talk about their personal experience of their religion and the reasons
they chose it, rather than give recruiting speeches, and I felt they did
excellent jobs.  The audience of about 20-30 people was clearly pleased,
and several people talked about organizing another discussion.

If you can find opportunities to do things like this in your community,
I think it will do more good than any amount of arguing with
fundamentalists.  My friend said that it was fun, too!

Mary Kuhner mkkuhner@genetics.washington.edu
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: altheimm@nextnet.csus.edu (Murray Altheim)
Subject: Re: New Thread: Pagan Fiction
Organization: California State University: Sacramento
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 16:38:14 GMT

In article <16074@ucdavis.ucdavis.edu> darsie@eecs.ucdavis.edu (Richard Darsie) writes:
>In the grand tradition of the Pagan Movie thread, I thought I'd ask people
>for their favorite works of fiction with pagan themes...

I'd have to recommend highly:

THE MAGUS by John Fowles
A book that pretty much blew me away the first time I read it.  The plot 
twists, the subject matter and the handling of characters is excellent,
and there are many pagan threads running through, such as the living 
presence of the gods, etc. but I won't give the plot away so there nyaah.

*hiccup*

Murray

-- 
Murray M. Altheim      "Ils ont l'orteil de Bouc, & d'un Chevreil l'oreille,
Instructional Consultant    La corne d'un Chamois, & la face vermeille
CSU, Sacramento          Comme un rouge Croissant: & dancent toute nuict
altheimm@csus.edu       Dedans un carrefour, ou pres d'une eau qui bruict."
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: shaman@cix.compulink.co.uk (Leo Smith)
Subject: resign alt.pagan
Reply-To: shaman@cix.compulink.co.uk
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1992 11:52:37 +0000
From: canders@isr.harvard.edu (Carl E. Anderson)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: New Thread: Pagan Fiction
Date: 18 Aug 92 17:08:07 GMT
Organization: Harvard University, Cambridge, MA

In article <PIERSON.92Aug18103147@kukri.mps.mlo.dec.com> pierson@kukri.mps.mlo.dec.com (dan pierson) writes:
>Re: New Thread: Pagan Fiction; canders@isr.harvard.edu (Carl E. Anderson) adds:
>> captures the spirit of the Scandinavian folk tradition.  Poul Anderson does
>> a very good job at reworking saga literature with his version of Hrolfs
>> saga kraka and other similar stories.  E.H. Boyer takes a different tack
>
>It may be worth noting, that the professor in my ancient Icelandic
>literature course at UC Berkeley used Poul's translations of shorter
>pieces in preference to several standard ones...

	Yes, the head of our Scandinavian Dept. at Harvard has also praised
Poul's work in this.

Cheers,
Carl

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carl Edlund Anderson	            	"Hefi ek ok aldri sva reitt vapn
canders@isr.harvard.edu			at manni at eigi hafi vidh kommit."
OR
anderso2@husc.harvard.edu			- Skarphedhinn Njalsson 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: klotz@lclark.edu (Gretchen Klotz)
Subject: Re: Pagan music
Organization: Lewis & Clark College, Portland OR
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 03:19:48 GMT

Well, I'm not going to list my favorites in this thread right now (too
long!).  I do want to make sure that everyone knows about Ladyslipper, a
"non-profit, tax exempt organization which has been involved in many
facets of women's music since 1976." (And no, I'm not affiliated except as
a satisfied customer.) They distribute an *enormous* amount of popular and
not-so-popular american and international music by women (of all sexual
orientations) and gay men.  The most recent catalog has 13 - count 'em,
*13* - pages of tinytiny type listing "Women's Spirituality - New Age"
releases.  Ladyslipper includes meditation tapes with music in this
category.  Their other sections applicable to this thread include
"Holiday," "International," and "Mehn's Music." They carry limited edition
and hard-to-find releases. 

Contact information: Ladyslipper, PO Box 3124-R, Durham, NC 27715.  (800)
634-6044.

Okay, that's it for the commercial.  Now I have a request: if folks want
to get into guided meditations, let's make a separate thread on that.  And
if that happens, *pleasepleaseprettyplease* tell whether your favorite
meditation tape has synthesizer/electronics on it or is all acoustic.  Thanks!

BB,

- Gretchen
-- 
Gretchen Klotz					       Computing Services 
klotz@lclark.edu				    Lewis & Clark College
From: cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Tarot: What's the blank card for?
Date: 14 Aug 92 17:40:06 GMT
Organization: University of California, Irvine

In article <1992Aug14.161216.583@terminator.cc.umich.edu> briansp@css.itd.umich.edu (Brian Spolarich) writes:

>     In the past few years, mathematicians have begun to discover a basic
>principle of the Universe:  that of uncertainty.  The belief structures 
>that comprise the Scientific Method break down into absurdity on the macro-
>and micro-cosmic level, 

No, they don't.  Puh-LEEZE do not pontificate all about something you
don't understand.  There is no such thing as a "belief structure"
breaking down into "absurdity."  Things are merely statistically
predictable instead of predicvtable one by one.  Flip a coin.  Can you
tell me which way it will face before it hits the ground?  No?  Then I
guess your belief system just broke down into absurdity.

Flipp the coin a hundred times.  It will come up almost exactly heads
half the time and tails the other half.  THIS is uncertainty -- the fact
that while we can't predict one individual event, we know the
probability with which it will follow a given path.  

That's all.  Nothing else.  No "belief systems" breaking down, no
"Scientific Method [sic]" degenerating into "absurdity."

It amazes me the number of P/pagans who get furious when a fundie posts
and tells them what they believe, but these same people -- though
entirely ignorant of physics -- will pontificate about it for pages. 

>leaving particle physicists scratching their
>prematurely balding heads, and turning young mathematicans into old ones
>before their times.  

Ann Heinson (a postdoc who used to be here) would be shocked to learn
that she has been described as prematurely bald.  And, this might
disturb you, but these new phenomena are what give young mathematicians
their theses. 

>The end result has been the formulation of Chaos theory,
>or the Principle of Uncertainty.  

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO!  Chaos theory and the uncertainty principle
are two entirely different things!  Have you studied either of them?
No?  Then wheta the hell gives you the right to spew off about them, to
try to back your own unschooled view of things? 

>Cause and effect relationships become
>disentangled, leaving causes without effects, and events without causes.

Nope. Bzzzt.  Try again.

>     We, of course, have known this all along, and modern Science will 
>blodly trudge along behind the cart, while we sit in the front seat reading
>Descartes.  So be it.

You ignorant, condescending, superior, know-it-all jackass.  Every time
I read a post by some mathphobe who can't balance his checkbook
blathering about how he knows all about what Science [sic] is, and how
because he can't add 2 and 2 he is innately spiritually superior, I have
to hold my sides to keep them from bursting in laughter. 

NO regards,
Janis C.
From: donal@brewich.hou.tx.us (Donal)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Pagan fiction, the "survey", & Heinlein
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 92 08:12:27 CDT
Organization: The Brewer's Witch BBS, +1 713 272 7350, Brewich.Hou.TX.US

markbr@radian.UUCP (Mark Roth) writes:
> Several thousand years ago, a small tribe of ignorant near-savages wrote 
> various collections of myths, wild tales, lies, and gibberish.  Over the 
> centuries, these stories were embroidered, garbled, mutilated, and torn 
> into small pieces that were then repeatedly shuffled.  Finally, this 
> material was badly translated into several languages successively.
> 
> The resultant text, creationists feel, is the best guide to this complex 
> and technical subject.
> 
>                     -- Tom Weller, *Science Made Stupid*

fan-fucking-tastic!! I MUST immediately post a copy of this to every
religious discussion board I am on!! Thank you!


--------------------
Donal, Sysop of The Brewer's Witch BBS -- +1 713 272 7350
(Internet) donal@brewich.hou.tx.us  (Work) bill%pssi@lobster.hou.tx.us
(CIS) 76460,1443 
(SCA) Ld. Donal Dubh, IC of Dun Bruddair, B of the Stargate, K of Ansteorra
From: ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com (Ailsa N.T. Murphy)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Gypsy -- whaddaya think, people?
Keywords: here, fishy fishy...
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 92 12:40:15 EST
Organization: Ailanthus Project

swells@triton.unm.edu (Earth-daughter) writes:

>
> one word:
>
> cool!

my sentiments exactly.  i thin it is a lovely, if a bit grandiose, idea.
Greenpeace, this time, is all wet.
>
> shannon the (ok, *a*) mouthy pushy ranting broad

ailsa, one of the other ones



=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
     ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com                   ________
        I don't need a hero                Silence \      / Action
        I don't need a soldier                =     \    /    =
        I did when i was younger            Death    \  /    Life
        But now i'm so much older.                    \/
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: pharvey@quack.sac.ca.us (Paul Harvey)
Subject: Re: Intolerance and the pagan "community"
Summary: Unity AND Diversity, that is the key
Organization: The Duck Pond public unix: +1 408 249 9630, log in as 'guest'.
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1992 22:40:29 GMT

In article <199208212051.AA21650@natinst.com> 
markbr@radian.UUCP (Mark Roth) writes:
>Keep it up, folks. Left the Fundamentalist would-be Fascists take over the
>country, while we argue in our own little world. 

They are not taking over, they are being used. It is money that talks,
not any religion. The greenback is THE GOD. ONE NATION UNDER GOD($).
Christianity is more fractured now then it has ever been. The Christians
will never again unite as in the glory days of Roman Catholicism. War is
not an appropriate metaphor for religion. That is because the people are 
discovering the way of the light. The people are finally getting ready
to walk that freedom walk and talk that freedom talk. Now it is just a
question of gaining democratic control over monied interests. 

>Whatever else the UFP is, and no, I think Universal is stupid, but the general
>opinion (what little I've heard) is that quibbling over that is trivial, it
>is, at least, an ATTEMPT to DO something that will affect the real, socio-
>political world in some meaningful way, one that will affect all of us. Who
>else among us has even tried something on a large scale?  

Politics and Religion do not mix. Politics is about organization,
starting at the grass roots level. The people can agree on one thing,
and that is that they are the people, they do not have money so they do
not have power and they do not have representation in our "best
government that money can buy". However, they do have one vote each and
they do have the numbers and the power of revolution. This is the reason
for political organization of the people, it is the only way to maintain
or restore a democracy. As for religious organization, no that is not
the way of light. That is the old way of the Roman Catholic Church and
it will no longer work, if it ever did. Conversion is the way of
darkness. Not Roma. Amor. The way of the one. The idea of one religion
for all human beings is truly morally bankcrupt. Unity AND Diversity,
and old idea whose time has come.

>Go ahead, folks, flame away at me. Waste our time, rather than looking, as I 
>said before, for common ground, and like minds.

Common ground is for democratic politics. Common ground for religion is
the realization that we are all Homo sapiens sapiens. All alike and all
different. Worlds above and worlds below, but no one in the world like
me. That is what a baby says for baby talk and that is a dying person's
last breath. There is only one constant and that is change.
From: ogorman@unix1.tcd.ie (Lucifuge)
Subject: Yet more music...
Organization: Trinity College, Dublin
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1992 19:33:41 GMT

Wrt pagan music and getting away from the ummm new agey stuff....I'm
like totally shocked that no one has mentioned the one and only supreme
goddess of us all...Kate Bush...okay not strictly pagan themes but
definately inclined towards the mystical. 

Or on a much more aggressive note, Sabbat and Skyclad...english thrash
with strong pagan overtones (though only on the first two Sabbat
albums).

Ollie...
'Lonely sits a vanquished lord, upon an oaken throne,   
 Presiding o'er this conflict, which chills him to the bone...'

Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: radzy@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU (T. O. Radzykewycz)
Subject: Re: New Thread: Pagan Fiction
Organization: International Computer Science Institute, Berkeley, CA, U.S.A.
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1992 04:14:52 GMT

ciaran@county.lmt.mn.org (Ciaran Benson) writes:
> Would someone please make a list of all of the books which are
> being mentioned and post it sometime when the additions have
> kindof died down ???

I've been saving them, and I'll be willing to send them out to
anyone who asks.  If I get more than six or seven requests, then
I'll post them.  Ciaran is #1.  *MAIL* me if you want to get a
copy.

I intend to make two lists: one with just titles & authors, and a second
one with that, comments, and who made suggestions and comments.

> Let's add another thread too -- Pagan Music !!!

Yes!  But PLEASE post with a different subject line!  PLEASE!

Blessings!

		-- radzy

------------------------------------------------------------
					|  An it harm none,
	T. O. Radzykewycz	     	|  do as ye will.
	The Incredible Radical Cabbage	|
					|  "Just pray for a
	radzy@cogsci.berkeley.edu       |  tough hide and a
	        			|  tender heart."
	        			|    -- Ruth Graham
------------------------------------------------------------
> Hi! I am a .signature virus. Copy me into your .signature to join in!
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: ciaran@county.lmt.mn.org (Ciaran Benson)
Subject: Re:  Need help/advice on designing my Tarot deck.
Reply-To: ciaran@county.lmt.mn.org (Ciaran Benson)
Organization: LaserMaster Technologies, Minneapolis, MN
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 92 19:58:16 GMT

Phil Stephens writes;

>"Similarly, I don't see the 9 and 10 of swords as culmination of
a journey, but as a rather painful awakening to the need for that
journey: the truth cuts like a knife (my teacher's take; feel
free to ignore this particular reality tunnel), and is still
painful in the imagry of 3 swords thru a large heart, but becomes
balance in two of swords."

  The 9 and 10 as beginning?  I like that -- gives a more hopeful
interpretation on the 10 of swords, although for myself I will
probably stay with what I've got, but this will lighten it
quite a bit.

  I've also seen the 10 of swords as the outcome of zazen -- 
complete separation yet complete union.  The attainment of
the center, that which can not be named.  In this case, though
it's usually an incomplete realization since the questioner has
achieved the separation (cutting off), but hasn't regained the
connectedness so important to being of but not of (sorry, not
being clear, I'm sure -- hopefully you know what I mean).

  The three of hearts, besides painful, is also a letting go --
the vessel is being bled, the pain is being released, and the
unhealed wound is washing itself in its own blood.  Yummie ;)

  Thanks for the wonderful thought about the 9's and 10's, though.

   Blessed be, Ciaran.

  "...And here, Queen Aphrodite, pour heavenly nectar into gold
   cups, and fill them gracefully with sudden joy."  -- Sappho
From: ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com (Ailsa N.T. Murphy)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Amber...Jet.
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 92 18:54:02 EST
Organization: Ailanthus Project

cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese) writes:

> In article <DPmePB8w164w@ailanth.UUCP> ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com (Ailsa N.T
> >
> >i want to marry janis...  B)
> >
>
> ailsa, you are so fucking sweet.
>
> Blessings and a big hug,
> Janis

oooooo!  does that mean you accept?  B)

                           -ailsa

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
     ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com                   ________
        I don't need a hero                Silence \      / Action
        I don't need a soldier                =     \    /    =
        I did when i was younger            Death    \  /    Life
        But now i'm so much older.                    \/
From: cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
Subject: something I though ailsa would get a kick out of
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: 20 Aug 92 03:37:46 GMT

Many profuse apologies to others for putting this here, but I don't
have ailsa's address in my .mailrc, so I had to post.  I'll make it
short. 

I thought you'd get a kick out of this.  I subscribed to sci.anthro out
of curiosity and discovered an intense "discussion" as to whether or not
breasts developed as substitute buttocks (Hey, honey, get that ass off
your chest!).  Watching that conversation unfold among a bunch of male
anthy majors who seem to have spent too little time examining
paleolithic culture and too much time thinking about Barbie was fun.  

Check it out!  You'll laugh harder than you've ever laughed before --
that is, unless you've heard a group of men trying to have a
"scientific" discussion on why breasts evolved (as if it isn't fucking
obvious) before.

Blessings for an anthy expert,
an anthy dilletante  

Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: rickheit@dragon (Erich Rickheit KSC)
Subject: Re: info wanted on runes
Frankie: Nothing...why, do you think I should?
Organization: University of Lowell Computer Science, Lowell MA
Brad: What have you done with Janet
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 13:59:26 GMT

In article <1992Aug21.065332.2887@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au> mongoose@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Conrad Leviston) writes:

>	Any decent copy of The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien will have Anglo-Saxon
>Runes in it.

No, the runes in _The_Hobbit_ are Tolkien's invention, based upon the
Anglo-saxon runes. He re-ordered and redesigned them to fit his aesthetic,
as well as making the pronunciations easier to figure. They look good, but
they're as much an artifact as his Elvish languages.

If you like these sorts of artifacts (which I do), they appear in an
appendix in _Return_of_the_King_, along with a very pretty script alphabet.
Curiously, though Tolkien's mythology did include the notion of language
having power, runes having power (especially divinitory power) never comes
up.

For information on the various Runic alphabets (in addition to the New Age
collection from Hell :), hit the linguistics section of your library and
look for translations of the Rune Poems; these were mnemonic devices for
remembering the names of the runes and their associations. I haven't hit a
translation yet that was good poetry in English, but they'd be a good source
for people who want seriously to workwith the runes.

>There are also Ogams, seen below, but these aren't
>particularly pleasing aesthetically.

These are one of several Oghams, as I understand it. As for aesthetics, they
at least have the virtues of simplicity and flexibility. You can, for
example, have the baseline follow a curve or wrap around a piece.

-- 
			Erich the hahaha Mad
rickheit@dragon.cpe.ulowell.edu AT&T: 508 453 1753 : USnail: Erich Rickheit KSC
         "Here, my ice lolly's melted --           :         85 Gershom Ave, #2
          You really _are_ the devil!"             :         Lowell, MA 01854
From: cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
Subject: Re: Amber...Jet.
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: 12 Aug 92 18:42:06 GMT

In article <DPmePB8w164w@ailanth.UUCP> ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com (Ailsa N.T. Murphy) writes:
>
>i want to marry janis...  B)
>

ailsa, you are so fucking sweet.

Blessings and a big hug,
Janis

Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: rickheit@dragon (Erich Rickheit KSC)
Subject: Re: Pagan music
Frankie: Nothing...why, do you think I should?
Organization: University of Lowell Computer Science, Lowell MA
Brad: What have you done with Janet
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 00:05:38 GMT

In article <1992Aug17.165908.9244@burrhus.harvard.edu> canders@isr.harvard.edu (Carl E. Anderson) writes:

>	The Tain - Horslips - Irish folk-rock outfit from the '70s musical
>		version of the Irish literary masterpiece.  They're
>		whacked, but it's kinda neat.

Yow! Someone besides me has actually heard of this band. 

Horslips' first two albums (well, the earliest two I can find; I've
only seen one discography and it agrees with me) are "The Tain" and
"Book of Invasions", both based on the well known stories. The first is
about the Brown Bull of Ulster, and the latter about the conflict
between the Fir Bolg and the Tuatha de Danaan. Their later albums are about
the Irish people (not mythologically), but don't stand out as musically or
lyrically as the first two.

-- 
			Erich the hahaha Mad
rickheit@dragon.cpe.ulowell.edu AT&T: 508 453 1753 : USnail: Erich Rickheit KSC
         "Here, my ice lolly's melted --           :         85 Gershom Ave, #2
          You really _are_ the devil!"             :         Lowell, MA 01854
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