From: cochrane@spot.Colorado.EDU (Jim Cochrane)
Subject: Re: source of morality for atheists
Keywords: morality, right action, mind, conditioning
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 03:21:31 GMT

In article <1992Oct12.223544.4817@bmerh85.bnr.ca> dgraham@bmers30.bnr.ca (Douglas Graham) writes:
>In article <1992Oct11.073211.12300@ucsu.Colorado.EDU> cochrane@spot.Colorado.EDU (Jim Cochrane) writes:
>>In article <1992Oct10.213730.14549@bmerh85.bnr.ca> dgraham@bmers30.bnr.ca (Douglas Graham) writes:
>>>[deleted]
>>
>>[deleted]
>and
>
>>[more of my stuff deleted]
>>their nature.  Compassion and intelligence are not qualities that are
>>given to us by god or that are forced upon us by society, culture, or
>>the church; they are part of us.  The challenge is to discover these
>>qualities in ourselves and to cultivate them; and to avoid indulgence
>>in ignorance and deception -- qualities [the latter two] which moral
>>systems often tend to encourange rather than avoid.
>
>Exactly.  And I think that properly done, there would not need to be any
>set of rules that need to be imposed on others, or at least none that
>they were conscious of adhering to.  For example, the reason that I

I think we're pretty much in agreement.
>do not run out and start killing people is not because society has
>rules against such things, or because a little voice in my head tells
>me that it is wrong, but because I have no inclination to do so.
>Similarly, I have no inclination to follow the lead of the priesthood
>and start sexually abusing little boys.  The key to "morality" is to
>cultivate the best in people,

And, I think, to help them to cultivate the best in themselves.  This
is what enlightened education (if it exists anywhere) is all about
(and I think that is part of what you're saying, or implying).
>not to set down a bunch of arbitrary rules
>and then lay big guilt trips on people to get them to follow them.  That
>brings out the worst.

Yes.  However, I guess I have a problem with using the word morality at
all -- I know you put it in quotes above, but you're still using it :-).
It has a lot of negative connotations.  Maybe I'm exposing some of my
own conditioning here, but when I hear the word morality I tend to
disregard it as a bullshit term, the same way I regard terms such as
"family values" and "national security."  Anyway, I think we're actually
both saying almost exactly the same thing (so perhaps there's no point
in my posting this :-) ).

Perhaps I should change the subject slightly and post something I'm sure
some people here will disagree with (I can't tell if you will or not, Doug).
I know that a lot of atheists don't consider a concept of consciousness,
mind, or awareness valid.  They hold (as far as I know) that all phenomena,
including the existence and actions of living beings, are explainable
entirely in terms of physical processes -- that is, they are simply the
result of energy acting upon matter.  (I apologize if I'm oversimplifying
or distorting people's views here -- feel free to correct me.)  I think
that there are some atheists, including me, who do think that such a
thing as consciousness or awareness exists.  I'm not sure how far this
discussion can go without defining consciousness -- we'll see.  However,
by the terms consciousness, mind, or awareness I do not mean anything like
what is usually called a "soul".

Now for those wondering what the hell the above paragraph has to do with
the rest of this posting, I think that the intelligence and "guidance"
that will allow us to come up with something better than existing moral
systems has to come from our own minds; thus it is self-guidance.  In
other words, the qualities that will allow us to act in a "correct" way
are qualities of our own minds and cannot be imposed from outside.  Now
those who don't buy into the concept of mind would not, I assume, be
able to accept this explanation.  So, maybe we can start some good arguments
here :-) .
>--
>Doug Graham          Unk, the big trouble with dumb bastards is that they
>dgraham@bnr.ca       are too dumb to believe there is such a thing as being
>My own opinions.     smart.    --Kurt Vonnegut from _The Sirens of Titan_


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