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Date:         Wed, 27 Jan 1993 10:29:07 -0500
From:         URSIC@ASTRO.CS.HH.AB.COM
Subject:      Re: condemnation of homosexual acts is (un)necessary...

"Donald J. Magee" <djm@TRENT.ATT.COM> writes:
>I deny no one basic human dignity.  I defend the teachings of the
>Church.  Homosexual acts are immoral.  The scriptures say it.  Holy
>tradition says it.  The bishops have said it.  I believe it.
So, Don, you would have no objection to a chaste homosexual in the military,
while you would perhaps favor rules dispelling un-chaste heterosexuals? - J.J.
From: mjsmith@cac.washington.edu (Martha Smith )
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Re:      New Subscriber Bio
Date: 22 Jan 1993 22:56:21 GMT
Organization: UW Computing
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Okay, okay ... a little about myself:

Martha Eshelman-Smith:
occupation: computer-nerd payroll type at University of Washington
avocations: chair of Washington State Folklife Council
            former board member Seattle Storytellers' Guild
            past-chair (present member) Blessed Sacrament Parish Council
            coordinator of lay liturgical ministers - Blessed Sacrament
Education: BA - philosophy
           MA - Buddhist studies special interests in comparative mysticism
                and religious narrative
Family: two grown kids, a teenage foster son, 1 grandson, 4 cats
e-mail: mjsmith@u.washington.edu 
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Date:         Mon, 25 Jan 1993 10:45:10 -0500
From:         URSIC@ASTRO.CS.HH.AB.COM
Subject:      Re: The Real Presence

Thomas McGinnis <tfm+Catholic@CS.CMU.EDU> writes:

>>OK, I found it quite unbelievable, the opportunity for fraud could
>>not be ruled out as I would doubt the traceability of the evidence.

> But you have no trouble accepting "evidence" of evolution that's been
>buried in the ground for millions of years (they say)...? Phooey!

Wow, another assault on me personally, I'm honored.
But I do think it would be relatively pointless to explain the difference
in evidence in each case:-)

> (Just trying to tie a couple of JJ's threads together.... :-) )

This is obviously another attempt to get me to accuse someone of tying
natural and supernatural events together. So to save everyone some time..
I'll apologize to Thomas now for accusing him of a feeble attempt at
connecting the real presence to evolution. - J.J.
(if you have any questions, ask Steve:-)
From: dbernard@clesun.Central.Sun.COM (Dave Bernard)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Re:      Natures of Jesus
Date: 26 Jan 93 16:14:42 GMT
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Len Horn writes:

>" ... It turned out that Jesus' expectations about his mission on earth
>were not to be fulfilled in the way he had hoped.
>Because of the hardness of heart of his listeners, the Kingdom would
>not come in the way he had thought it would. ..."

Hard to second guess what the writer is talking about.  As a first guess, I'd interpret the passage to say that Jesus began by preaching one thing, was confused, and then failed to some extent.  He failed because the listeners weren't interested.  So we're left to figure out what part of Jesus's message was the REAL part, and which was the failed (and hence untrue?) part.  Is it the author's implication that Jesus originally
thought he was establishing an earthly kingdom?

I don't know at one point, if there is any one point, where Jesus became aware of his
job.  In the early days, some sects decided that Jesus didn't assume Messiah-hood
until the Holy Ghost declared such during the visit to John on the Jordan.  But if
he was born with the divine nature, it seems possible that he always knew?

	Dave Bernard
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Date:         Wed, 27 Jan 1993 15:09:56 -0500
From:         URSIC@ASTRO.CS.HH.AB.COM
Subject:      Re: condemnation of homosexual acts is (un)necessary...

"Greg Wolff, MISG, ICS::, MSO1-1/J50" <wolff@ICS.ENET.DEC.COM> writes:

>>Yes, but let's just be fair about spreading the condemnation:-) -J.J.

>    There are persons who think that consenting heterosexual genital
>    actions outside of marriage are OK but that equivalent homosexual
>    actions are not.

>    The teaching authority of the Church, and her supreme pastor, do not
>    fall into that category.

So, Greg, if the "teaching authority of the Church" or the "supreme pastor"
were to take a stand, it would be that a chaste homosexual should not
be discriminated against for they are no different than a chaste hetero-
sexual in God's eyes.

Can you perhaps agree that to ban them from the military is to condemn
them for an action they have not even performed? - J.J.
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From: jocallag@artin.helios.nd.edu (john ocallaghan)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Re:      Re: Homosexual acts
Date: 22 Jan 93 02:23:58 GMT
Organization: OUC, University of Notre Dame

In article <C16oI1.CuC@unix.portal.com> zerucha@shell.portal.com (Thomas E Zerucha) writes:
>In article <1993Jan20.031203.8835@news.nd.edu> jocallag@artin.helios.nd.edu (john ocallaghan) writes:
>>
>>Here are a couple of words of the past, that if your statement is true,
>>no lnger suffice:  I am the way, the truth, and the life; he who believes
>>in me shall never die.
>>
>Can I have the life if I reject the truth and don't stay on the way?
>He also said that those who love him obey his commands.  If you believe
>that Jesus' crucifixion and suffering was to repay our sins, then should
>we go on commiting them?  The mystics say that when we sin, we directly
>injure Christ.  If you say you love him, how can you hurt him?  Consider
>your children (or parents) - you don't normally try to find ways of excusing
>bad behavior toward them or trying to justify actiions that harm them.
>
>I earlier gave the example of smoking.  Do you take a libertine attitude,
>or are you concerned that a smoker will be harmed in the long term so ought
>not to engage in it?
>---
>zerucha@shell.portal.com - main email address
>Thomas Zerucha / 24075 Lee Baker / Southfield MI 48075 - hardcopy
>(313)594-4941 - work phone
>Pax Domini sit sempre vobiscum

Thomas,
If you had been around this list for a while, you might consider whether
you're aim is on target here.

Peace,
John
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: eharbin@convex.com (Edward Harbin)
Subject: Re: Natures of Jesus
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 12:35:21 GMT
Organization: Engineering, CONVEX Computer Corp., Richardson, Tx., USA
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
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In <1993Jan27.000418.22455@mlb.semi.harris.com> bath@dw3f.ess.harris.com (Kenneth Bath) writes:

>Finally, as a friend of mine said in class:  If Jesus didn't know He was
>God, why didn't Mary tell Him?

>Ken Bath
Part of being fully human, though, must have been facing doubt and fear of
death, just like all of us. I think the 'take this cup from me' refers
not just to the coming trial, but the truly awful appreciation of 
who he was and claimed to be.

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Date:         Tue, 26 Jan 1993 13:41:32 EST
From:         "Donald J. Magee" <djm@TRENT.ATT.COM>
Subject:      Re: homilies
              26, 93 5:31 pm

>
> "Alfred S. Chavez" <achavez@UMSA.UMD.EDU> writes:
> >Don Magee writes:
> >>Somewhere those delivering homilies need to strike a balance.  At
> >>least in the Arch. of NY, we need a little more Tradition and a little
> >>less secular life.
> >
> >Such as....farming, finances, familial relationships, etc?  Seems to me the
> >gospels were full of such "secular life." ...
>
> I agree, Fred.  And further the Constitution on the Church tells us that
> the work of the church is to take the gospel to the everyday world.  And
> I don't think that means reading the Bible on streetcorners, but rather
> living the Christlike life out in the real world.  A retreat to Tradition
> (as I think it was referred to here) is a retreat from our real call,
> to bring Christ into the 'secular life'.  Isn't the real test how well we
> answer this call, not how well we would do on a church history test?  Yes,
> it is unfortunate that we don't do better here, and we should improve, but
> first things first, please.
>
> Bob

> --
> Bob von Buelow             Mars Observer Planning and Sequencing Element

First things first.  Exactly my point.  Make the gospel message
relevant to life.  What I have seen is talk during the homily about
football games, the dept of trans., a reading of the financial report.
This, at least as it was presented, was not about the gospel message.

A retreat into tradition, as if the Holy Tradition of the Church was a
bad thing.  It is the Holy Tradition of the Church, together with Holy
Scripture which gives us our roots, and our direction.

In a spanish community in NYC, a group was distributing literature
which claimed that St. Thomas Aquinas, the Angelic Doctor, said
abortion was permissible for a portion of time before birth.
Unadulterated bullsh*t.  An attempt be some pro-abort "catholics" to
subvert the teaching of the Church.  You had better be able to pass
that "Church history test" if you want to defend the teachings of
Holy Mother Church.

Bring Christ into "secular life".  No, I don't see it that way.
Christify the world.  That is the call of the gospel.  We need less
plastic dashboard virgins and more true devotion to the Blessed
Mother.  (Which is not to say that a statue of the Blessed Virgin does
not belong on the dashboard, as a sign of personal devotion, proclaimed
to the world.)

We need to know the history of the Church, and live the lives of the
saints, as a guide to Christian living.  We need to know why the
Blessed Mother is the Theotokos and not merely the Christokos as the
heretic bishop Nestorius insisted.  It is in the Scriptures and in
Tradition (even yesterday) that we find Christ, and we must bring him
to the world so that the world might accept Him.

I don't find Christ in a reading of the financial report in place of a
proper homily.

Don Magee
trent!djm@jolt.att.com
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Date:         Mon, 25 Jan 1993 18:06:19 PDT
From:         frank lopez <FRANK@125LAW1.LAW.UCLA.EDU>
Subject: Re: The Shroud of Turin

>  The Shroud was dated as having been created in the Middle Ages, as I
> recall.  The image on the cloth is indeed the image of an actual
> crucified man.  This is what threw scientists off for so long.  The
> conclusion, as I remember it, is that in the Middle Ages a nobleman
> had an actual man (perhaps some lowly peasant) whipped and crucified,
> and then wrapped in this shroud, which he then passed off as the
> burial shroud of Jesus.
>


   As I remember the most recent round of carbon dating done on the
Shroud listed the Middle Ages as the probable date of the cloth.
However, a caveat was thrown in by the group (non-church folks) that
the most modern carbon dating technique used could literally be off by
1000 to 1400 years!

  So the debate goes on!

  But as usual I'm sure that J.J. has the answer :{] ;-[] (:->) (your
smiley face here)

  Frank
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Date:         Tue, 26 Jan 1993 17:28:16 EST
From:         "Spawn of a Jewish Carpenter (Cindy Smith)" <cms@DRAGON.COM>
Subject: Re: priests switching churches

I've read and heard a great deal about Episcopal priests becoming
Roman Catholic priests and Roman Catholic priests becoming Episcopal
priests.  My own priest was a Roman Catholic priest who became an
Anglican priest.  There's a common saying in Anglican circles:
"We get the best of the Roman Catholic priests and Rome gets the
worst of ours."  By and large, I think that's true.  I've known several
Anglican clergy personally who have opted for Rome and they were
ill-suited for the priesthood.  Rome can have them.

Cindy Smith
cms@dragon.com
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Date:         Fri, 22 Jan 1993 15:31:09 -0500
From:         URSIC@ASTRO.CS.HH.AB.COM
Subject:      RE: The Real Presence

CCCAMPER%MIZZOU1.BITNET@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU writes:
>So it seems from this response that your remarks were related to
>females and priesthood. ?

Yes, I suppose it's just a habit I have of never passing up an
opportunity to take a shot at this particular sexist tradition:-)

>As often happens, the true content of what I was posted was ignored.
>What do you think of the bread and wine turning to real human flesh
>and blood for the doubting? (assuming this is real) Just curious.

OK, I found it quite unbelievable, the opportunity for fraud could
not be ruled out as I would doubt the traceability of the evidence.
Changing bread and wine into flesh is not so unbelievable as our
own bodies do it all the time. That God would single out this
particular priest for this spontaneous event, and also chose to
make it a piece of His heart (how romantic) seems a bit far-fetched.
I'd classify it along with the shroud, as another forgery.

If He really wanted to make people believe in the Church's pet
theory on transubstantiation, He'd single out some Sunday and have
all hosts become organically human flesh. In fact, if He wanted to
show the importance of His maleness, He'd chose some other organ than
his heart:-)(sorry, couldn't resist) - J.J.
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: eharbin@convex.com (Edward Harbin)
Subject: Re: The Real Presence
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 19:01:39 GMT
Organization: Engineering, CONVEX Computer Corp., Richardson, Tx., USA
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              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

In <930125132839.20200678@ASTRO.CS.HH.AB.COM> URSIC@ASTRO.CS.HH.AB.COM writes:

>>Frankly, Jesus is too Holy in my heart and understanding to laugh at this
>>'humor'. I'm sorry, but it offends me.

>Well, at last we can agree, I find several traditions of the Catholic Church
>offensive because Jesus is too Holy in my heart and understanding.
>So I trade my 'humor' for their 'serious' prejudices. -J.J.

However, I doubt the way to convince someone who has the temerity to
disagree with you is to nauseate them.... Just a thought from the
bottom of my stomach :)

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Date:         Thu, 21 Jan 1993 09:35:39 HST
From:         Len Howard <tas@PEGASUS.COM>
Subject:      RE: Why is it?
              3:50pm)

Ray with regard to the vestments of the deacon.  The primary vestments
of the deacon are the dalmatic and the stole.  The stole was
originally the ancient handkerchief or neckcloth and seems to have
become a distinctive mark of the clergy in the fourth century.  It has
been worn by the deacon over the left shoulld since the seventh
century, as directed by the Council of Toledo, c.633.  The coundil
explains, "The right side of the body he must have free, in order that
he may without hindrance, do his service."  Canon 28 of the council
refers to the stole and alb as the special marks of the deacon in
contrast to the stole and chasuble of the priest.
     The deacon's most distinctive vestment, however, is the dalmatic,
which has a long and distinguished history in the Church.  It was worn
by the pope and the deacons of Rome in the fourth century, but then
apparently only as customary daily dress along with laymen.  During
the sixth century it seems to have been worn by bishops and deacons as
a distinguishing mark of their attire.  By the ninth century the
dalmatic was worn universally in the West by deacons.  Though the
dalmatic has never passed out of use in the West, its importance
declined over the centuries as the diaconate became largely a
transitional stage on the way to priesthood.  It is the proper
liturgical vestment for the deacon corresponding to the chasuble for
the priest, and, as such, should be restored as a major vestment of
the Church.  Its ue symbolically asserts the importance of the office
and its work in and to the Church  (from "The Diaconate, A Full and
Equal Order", by James M. Barnett)

Shalom,                           Len Howard
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From: 15942@brahms.udel.edu (Stephen Barr)
Subject: Re: pius xii on evolution
Organization: University of Delaware
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 16:10:55 GMT

     Polygenism, as I understand it, is the theory that
there were not just one original couple from whom all
human beings are descended (monogenism) but that there
were many original humans. Steve. 
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From: sbrandt@saturn.ncsa.uiuc.edu (Steven Robert Brandt)
Subject: Justin Martyr
Followup-To: bit.listserv.catholic
Organization: NCSA
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 15:08:49 GMT

I hope someone out there is competant to help me with this question.  I
recently was reading Justin's "Dialogue with Trypho the Jew" and discovered
that Justin regards Christ as "another God."

It seems to me that this is a major problem because Justin is well
respected by other Fathers, I am unaware of anyone labelling him a heretic
or even criticisizing him - although perhaps this is my ignorance?  It
seems to me that Justin is in the apostolic succession, represents a
viewpoint that is not controversial to his fellow contemporary Christians,
and doesn't seem to be an embryonic poorly expressed version of the Trinity
- rather, it seems something more akin to Mormonism.

Please respond by email as well as by posting - I have trouble getting to
the bulletin boards, and I really would like some help.
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Date:         Sat, 23 Jan 1993 20:12:28 EST
From:         RASCH@C-H.BWH.HARVARD.EDU
Subject:      Re: The Real Presence

> The fundamental differences between the two churches, Roman and Anglican
> concerning the 'mechanics', point out that receiving the Sacrament in a
> Roman Catholic Church is NOT the same as receiving It in the Anglican Catholic
> Church.

Could you please tell me what you see are the 'fundemental differences' in
receiving the Sacrament.  Is it anything besides the validity of ordination -
(and remember that the Episcopal Church recognizes the validity of Roman
Catholic orders.  A Roman Catholic priest who became Episcopalian and wished
to be a priest in that communion would *not* be re-ordained, but received
instead.)

Joan Rasch   internet Rasch@c-h.bwh.harvard.edu
              FidoNet  jrasch 1:101/230
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Date:         Mon, 25 Jan 1993 09:39:00 EST
From:         "UPAC01::JENNINGS" <jennings@ABB.COM>
Subject:      Hello

Hello,

I would like to introduce myself to the group.  My name is Tom
Jennings and I live in Fairport, NY (near Rochester) with my wife and
4 kids.  I am a Roman Cahtolic and active in our parish as a Parish
Council member, Eucaristic Minister,  Reader, and Minister of
Hospitality.  I also volunteer as a MOH at a shelter  for homeless
men.  As for my profession, I am a software engineer for  ABB Process
Automation.

I have enjoyed the discussions and have learned something.  In fact,
as a rsult of subscribing to this list, I now say the Rosary every
day.


Tom Jennings.
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From: jdean@cwis.unomaha.edu (Janet Dean)
Subject: Re:      Marriage Encounter Weekend
Organization: University of Nebraska at Omaha
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 19:57:58 GMT


Jane,

My husband and I made a Marriage Encounter Weekend about 14 years ago.
It was the best thing that ever happened to us.  My advice would be
to set aside your anxiety and look forward to the experience.  If you
are open and honest, you will give each other the best gift of your
lives.

Janet Dean

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Date:         Fri, 22 Jan 1993 12:56:44 -0500
From:         URSIC@ASTRO.CS.HH.AB.COM
Subject:      RE: The Real Presence

Elizabeth,

Your e-Mail address seemed to bounce when I  tried it, so I'll just
post my reply to your question of what my "message" meant.

When I said:
>Not only that, but with advances in medical science, the actual second
>coming of Christ, may be in that of a clone. - J.J.

I was referring to the theory that an entire person could be duplicated
(cloned) from any of their individual cells (any DNA contains the entire
map). So if we indeed have a piece of Jesus' heart, we should be able to
duplicate Him.

When I said:
>(Hmmm, I wonder if anyone has considered requiring prospective priests
>to have the exact blood type of Jesus:-)

Here I was implying that since we only allow males to represent Christ in
the priesthood because of some "natural resemblance" tradition, if we indeed
were able to determine Jesus's blood type, perhaps we should also only allow
males of a certain blood type to the priesthood. The smiley was that I
wasn't too serious in this suggestion since the blood type of the
apostles could not be inferred from Jesus'. Or do we know that Jesus
would have only chosen apostles with the same blood type as Him:-)

Hope this helps, and I'll try not to encode my responses to your
messages too much in the future. - J.J.
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Date:         Fri, 22 Jan 1993 12:27:53 -0500
From:         mayo@CS.UTK.EDU
Subject:      "One Bread, One Body", Jan 27

                    Wednesday, January 27, 1993
                       Angela Merici, Virgin

Hebrews 10:11-18            Psalm 110           Mark 4:1-20

                        FARMING IN THE SPIRIT

"What the sower is sowing is the word." --Mark 4:14

Jesus taught us there are four possible results from His word.  Some who read
the Scriptures are not affected at all.  "Satan comes to carry off what was
sown in them" (Mk 4:15).  Often we can prevent this from happening by prayer
and fasting.

Others who read the Bible accept the word "joyfully at the outset" (Mk 4:16).
But "when some pressure or persecution overtakes them because of the word, they
falter" (Mk 4:17).  We at Presentation Ministries want to help our readers
become rooted in the word by teaching further on these Bible readings through
audio tapes and a telephone Bible message (513-852-9925).

"Those sown among thorns are another class.  They have listened to the word,
but anxieties over life's demands, and the desire for wealth, and cravings of
other sorts come to choke it off; it bears no yield" (Mk 4:18-19).  We try to
deal with this problem through our "co-workers" program, Bible Teachers'
training, Discipleship Program, and Bible Institute.

Finally, "those sown on good soil are the ones who listen to the word, take it
to heart, and yield at thirty- and sixty- and a hundredfold" (Mk 4:20).


Prayer:  Father, may Your word find a home in us (see Jas 1:21).

Promise: Jesus "waits until His enemies are placed beneath His feet." Heb 10:13

Praise:  Saint Angela began at thirteen to live an austere life as a
         Third-Order Franciscan.
-----
From "One Bread, One Body", reproduced with permission.
 Nihil Obstat: Rev. Edward J. Gratsch
 Imprimatur:  +Most Rev. James H. Garland, V.G.
               Archdiocese of Cincinnati, October 15, 1992.
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