From: johnson@offroad.chem.wisc.edu (Arthur Johnson)
Subject: Re: Christology 101 [was: There are two years left!]
Organization: Physical Sciences Lab, UW-Madison
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 92 18:24:04 GMT

In article <1992Sep10.115525.7438@ac.dal.ca> hartigan@ac.dal.ca writes:
> In article <Sep.10.01.15.31.1992.19629@athos.rutgers.edu>,  
hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu (Charles Hedrick) writes:
> > hartigan@ac.dal.ca writes:

     [...some stuff deleted...]
 
> >>Right. Like being able to raise the dead, walk on water, calm storms,  
etc.
> >>I understand now. It's all so clear...:)
> > 
> > Note that the early church (and even some current Christians) are
> > reported to have done similar acts.  They are not because of any
> > metaphysical difference between Jesus and other humans, but because
> > God's power worked through him.  He had a special role, and thus a
> > more direct access to God's power, but it is God's power, which is
> > separate from Jesus' nature as a human being.  Christians do not
> > regard Jesus as superman, i.e. someone who as a human being has extra
> > powers.  Such views have been suggested, but are considered heretical.
> 
> Are you sure about this? To me, it is your views that sound heretical. 
> The version of the Nicene Creed in Kenneth Scott Latourette's 
> _A History of Christianity, Vol.1_  reads, in part...
> 
>  We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of all things visible
>  and invisible, and in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the only-
>  begotten of the Father, that is, of the substance of the Father, God
>  from God, light from light, true God from true God, begotten, not made,
>  of one substance with the Father, through whom all things came to be,  
those
>  things that are in heaven and those things that are on earth, who for  
us
>  men and for our salvation came down and was made flesh, and was made  
man,
>  suffered, rose the third day, ascended into the heavens, and will come
>  to judge the living and the dead.

     The Nicene Creed, as published by the Religious Education Department  
of the Orthodox Church in America, reads as follows:

     I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of 
     Heaven and Earth, and of all things visible and 
     invisible. 
     And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the
     only-begotten, begotten of the Father before all
     ages. Light of Light; true God of true God; begotten,
     not made; of one essence with the Father, by whom
     all things were made; who for us men and for our
     salvation came down from Heaven, and was incarnate
     of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, and became
     man. And He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate,
     and suffered, and was buried. And the third day He
     arose again, according to the Scriptures, and ascended
     into Heaven, and sits at the right hand of the Father;
     and He shall come again with glory to judge the living
     and the dead; whose Kingdom shall have no end. 
     And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Giver of Life,
     who proceeds from the Father; who with the Father and
     the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spoke
     by the prophets.
     In one Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. I acknowledge
     one baptism for the remission of sins. I look for the
     resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world
     to come. Amen.
 
> This says that "Jesus Christ" is "true God from true God." It says that
> "Jesus Christ" is "of one substance with the father," "suffered, rose  
the
> the third day, etc."   
> 
> In other words, Jesus was not just an ordinary guy with the power of God
> working through him. He was "true God from true God."
                       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 

     Yes, but He is not _only_ "true God from true God". He is also true  
human from true human. Remember that the Incarnation is the result of the  
_cooperation_ of the Holy Spirit _and_ Mary. Jesus is one person in two  
natures (essences). His ability to perform miracles is due to His divine  
nature, not His human nature. Jesus is not superhuman. He is human; and He  
is divine.
>
     [...some stuff deleted...]     
> 
> > 
> >>Besides, doesn't the Nicene creed state that Jesus is of the same
> >>substance as the Father?  
> > 
> > No, it says that the Son is of the same substance as the Father.  As I
> > commented before, "son" is used in several different ways.  Here it's
> > talking about the eternal Logos, not Jesus as a human being.
> 
> In fact, it DOES say that "Jesus Christ" is of the same substance as the
> Father.
> 
> See the Creed, above. Your views do not coincide with the Creed. I guess
> you're a heretic! :)

     Well, "America _is_ the Great Satan"--(Ayatollah Khomeini) :-) :-)
 
>  Re: the Trinity

     [...some stuff deleted...]
 
> The formula of Chalcedon states...(again, from Latourette)
> 
>  Following the holy fathers we all, with one voice, define that there is 
>  to be confessed one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, perfect in 
>  Godhead and perfect in manhood, truly God and truly man, of rational  
soul
>  and body, of the same substance with the Father according to the  
Godhead, and
>  of the same substance to us according to the manhood...the peculiarity  
of
>  each nature being preserved in one person and one substance, not 
>  parted or separated into two persons....
>  
> You are emphasizing only one half of the equation. There are two  
natures,
> but in Jesus of Nazareth these two natures were One substance.
                                                  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> This emphasis you make would have got you excommunicated as an
> Apollinarian in the fifth century.
>
     Sean, you are confusing essence/nature/substance (ousia) with person  
(hypostasis/parsopa). The Council of Chalcedon is directed primarily, not  
against the opinions of Apollinarius, but against the opinions of  
Nestorius, who stated that Jesus is a union of two ousia _and_ two  
hypostases. The Chalcedonian view of the Incarnation is that Jesus is two  
ousia in one hypostatis.

     [...some stuff deleted...]  
 
> > We do believe that God was present in
> > and through Jesus, so that Jesus' acts are God's acts, and Jesus
> > reveals God's nature to us.  But Christian theology keeps his humanity
> > and God's identication with him carefully separate.  Confusing
> > Christ's humanity and divinity is one of the classic heresies.

     [...some stuff deleted...]
 
> Strictly speaking, NOT con-fusing (putting together) Christ's humanity
> and divinity is the mark of heresy. The Apollinarians stressed Jesus'
> humanity, saying that God/Logos was present in him. The Monophysites
> stressed his Divinity.  Both points of view were condemned as heretical.

     Actually, it's the Nestorians who are alleged to overemphasize Jesus'  
humanity. The Apollinarians believed that Jesus had a human body, but no  
human soul or spirit (His soul and spirit were identical to the Logos).  
The divine and human natures are _united_ in the person of Jesus, but not  
_confused_ in the person of Jesus. In other words, there is no transfer of  
attributes between the _natures_, i.e. Jesus' human nature has no divine  
attributes, and vice-versa. The _person_ of Jesus, however, does have both  
divine and human attributes, because Jesus is a union of two natures.

     [...some stuff deleted...]  
 
> Sean Hartigan
> hartigan@ac.dal.ca

Arthur Johnson
johnson@offroad.chem.wisc.edu

"O Lord and Master of my life, take from me the spirit of sloth, despair,  
lust of power, and idle talk. But give rather the spirit of chastity,  
humility, patience, and love to Your servant. Yea, O Lord and King, grant  
me to see my own sins, and not to judge my brother, for You are blessed  
unto ages of ages. Amen" -- Lenten Prayer of St. Ephraim the Syrian