From: tgt33358@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Thanatos)
Newsgroups: alt.vampyres
Subject: Re: Vampires-evil?
Date: 16 Nov 92 22:41:51 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana

In article <92321.143945JAL137@psuvm.psu.edu> Jon Leistiko <JAL137@psuvm.psu.edu> writes:
>Greetings...
>
>     In response to Thanatos' posting, I have several things to say...
>
>  (2) Ignorance breeds hatred.
>
>  (3) The efforts of White Wolf and Anne Rice _are_not_ the "first attempts"
>      to take a cross-cultural view of folklore. Folklorists have been doing
>      this for at least a century. One of the best examples of this is a
>      multi-volume "encyclopedia" called The_Motiff_Index (which was written
>      around 1900) - It's a remarkable catalogue of all elements of folklore,
>      myths, and legends _from_around_the_world_. I heartily recommend it to
>      any role-players and story writers...
What I postulated was that Rice and WW was the first attempt to codify 
_vampire_ folklore.  Actually, I have to check the text, but Stoker may have
been the first, by having Dracula mutter to Harker, "I am the last of my 
kind."  In that, the forces of the supernatural are being beaten back by 
reason, and no amount of folklore remains, or is worth remaining.  (Sort of
Nietzche's "The German Gods will rise up and destroy the Churches," assertion.
To Stoker, Folklore is irrelevant and unnecessary, since it is beaten back 
by Van Helsing a creature more of science than superstition).  Anyway, I 
suppose I could come up with some mucky term that would best be forgotten
the moment "n" is typed, but what's happening is this (IMO)
	Science is currently examinging the elements of folklore that 
contain truths.  Why did people put moldy bread on infections?  Science has
ultimately failed, however, to explain the predominance of mythic elements,
such as "dragons," vampires, and other phenomena shared across the strata.
Jung can be invoked, with his theories on the collective subconscious, but
nevertheless, these are purely academic approaches, and do not soothe the 
soul's need to know, as folklore once did.  Thus Rice and WW are doing 
an admirable job "super-constructing" modern vampire folklore (damn, I 
DID create a word...sorry). 

>
>  (4) There _is_ a distinct difference between folklore and fakelore:
>      - Folklore is generated "spontaneously" by the people... it's kind of
>        a "volkgeist" kind of thing...
>      - Fakelore is created deliberately by a select group of people for a
>        specific purpose and is often designed to decieve by pretending to
>        actually be folklore... Paul Bunyan will _never_ be "folklore" -
>        he will _always_ be "fakelore".
But elements of Rice and WW can be found ELSEWHERE in modern literature!  They
were NOT the first to come up with their ideas.  Their novels and 
concepts are simply a response to how they perceive the folkloric elements that
surround us each day.  For instance, a movie, "Pale Blood," came out, 
presenting vampires in much the same way vampires are presented in WW.  I 
even found myself caling out all the abilities.  Checking production dates 
(I'm a movie buff with a LOT of Variety and Premieres), I saw that the two 
were done simultaneously.  Zeitgeist?  I think so.
	I have spoken with the creators of Vampire.  It was a HELL of a risky
game to put out.  What came forth most was to get the idea out.  Playing
vampires.  Okay, that sucked _some_ in, but the background, with familiar
mythic invocations, kept them, and drew in others.  Now they're successful. 
Now they're in it for the money.  However, they've committed to _5_ seperate
games, none of which may coincide with the Vampire Zeitgeist that is 
currently making V:TM so popular.  But, even at a loss, they will produce
these books, because it's a statement on STORYTELLING.  Different ways to 
regain the lost talents.
	I suppose my arguement can come doewn to this:  by YOUR definition, 
there is no more folklore.  We are a capitalistic society, buying and
bartering ideas as well as goods.  Whether the currency is real or emotional,
stories serve an important purpose in disseminating ideas.  The medium has
changed.  We are not an oral society.  We believe what we read in the paper,
thus nothing is considered truly folkloric unless someone is stupid enough 
to print it as fact.  I am saying that folklore is a dynamic part of a 
culture, changing its mood, and creating new perceptions.  But Marshall
McLuhan was right:  the medium _is_ the message.  Unless you get off your
duff and work within the medium ($$$ books, TV, movies), the old stuff will
be forgotten, replaced by the rehashings of Rice and WW.  Just as Chandler
took the African storiestold by ex-slaves, and turned it into Uncle Remus, for
a profit, WW and Rice are preserving certain elements of folklore is an
unique, palatable, and fascinating way.  
	And, BTW, I was taught that Paul was 100% folklore.  Depends on the
teachier/sources, I guess.   

>  (5) As was pointed out in another responsive article, my purpose was to
>      out that people should broaden their horizons and engage in some
>      exploratory reading... I find it disheartening to see people eagerly
>      consume the modern mythos while neglecting the rich wealth of old
>      stories available to them... Too often, people fail to recognize that
>      the new stories are built upon the old ones (such as WW's 13 tribes
>      derived from religious myth (BTW - the number might be right, but can
>      you really take _all_ of the clans seriously?) ).
What clans CAN'T you take seriously?  There are some BIZARRE exmaples of 
vampires from around the world, each more unbeleivable than the next.
I'll try to find my guide, but for instance, the Spanish vampire CAN'T be 
killed!  The clan idea was an attept to show the machiavellian underpinnings
behind V:TM.  V:TM is very much a game of perceptions.  Anyone can do 
anything, but some things just come easier.  It's all in the blood...


-- 
I don't mind being the smartest	    / Thanatos, DeathUrge, Master of Unknown
man in the world...I just wish it   \ Time and Space tgt33358@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu 
wasn't this one...	       	    / It's a Zen thing... 
	-Ozymandias 		    \	 you wouldn't understand...