From: synth@deepthought.unm.edu (Synth F. Oberheim)
Subject: Re: More on fantasies and discussing one or two (was) Re: Rape in any form ...
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 92 02:50:10 GMT
Organization: SynthMedia Productions Ltd.: The Danes Call It Quality
	<SYNTH.92Jul29115142@deepthought.unm.edu> <t5nmkv=@lynx.unm.edu>

[ WARNING:  This post contains some descriptions that may be of a
sensitive nature to some of the readership.  Please hit 'n' now. ]

lazlo@triton.unm.edu (Lazlo Nibble) writes:

> Within the date-rape mentality, they many times don't *realize* that
> it's rape they're contemplating, why would they say it openly?  To them
> it's just an image of sex they're thinking of; of taking the girl,
> ripping off all her clothes, and getting their rocks off inside her. 

Laz> How do you *know* that?

How do you think?  This is what they themselves described.  You think I
would just conjure this out of nowhere?  From where do you derive such
assumptions?  (And by the way, up above is your first example.  Here's
another:  "God would I love to shove my DICK in her mouth --" -- this
in regard to someone they barely know.  Now tell me:  do you honestly
think there is nothing in the above that suggests dominance or force?)

Laz> Again, you're generalizing: first by assuming that the people you're
Laz> talking about have the "date-rape mentality"

Based on other things they say that reveal a sexist, disrespectful 
attitude toward women, they follow the same patterns as men who
have date-raped.  It's not a pre-conceived assumption.

> If it's a visualization of sex either with protest from the woman or with
> the woman being oblivious to any act taking place, it's a rape fantasy.

Laz> So which of these two possible situations are you using as the
Laz> primary foundation for your opinion?  The times when you were
Laz> presented with someone else's outright rape fantasy, or the times
Laz> when you heard a fantasy but didn't hear anything about consent
Laz> and therefore decided to *interpret* it as a rape fantasy?

Are you saying that if you drug someone's drink, render them unconscious,
and have sex with them, thus sidestepping consent, it's not rape?  And
similarly, if you have a desire to fuck someone, and you have an image
of a limp, lifeless receptacle for sex -- not an image of a mutual
sexual *encounter* -- then that's not also an image of rape?

I agree that simply hearing of someone expressing a desire to have sex with
someone, without explicitly describing whether or not that person consents,
cannot be construed to be a rape fantasy.  If I thought this I'd be
shouting "rape fantasy" at every man and woman on the face of the earth!

> Now show me where in *this* thread I ever said my contention was true of
> all men, or even a majority sample of the male race. 

Laz> In <SYNTH.92Jul27130810@deepthought.unm.edu>:
> Based on personal experience and observation ... I've seen that most men
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^                    ^^^^^^^^
If this is the source of the confusion, I apologize:  I never meant to suggest
that these are the facts for describing a majority sample of the male race.
My choice of the word "most" was inappropriate in that it can suggest this.
Hopefully you didn't gloss over the other point I made in relation:

>From: synth@deepthought.unm.edu (Synth F. Oberheim)
>I have my sample, and form my own opinions based on them.
           ^^^^^^
If this didn't clue you in to the fact that I did not pretend to know
all or even most [sic] men as a whole, then again I apologize.

But again, I have, in my (limited) experiences and dealings, noticed a
trend.  What conclusions I draw from them, though, are not intended to be
presented as an omniscient generalization.  I suppose I give you too much
credit, but I would think that this would be obvious to anyone reading ...
especially since I blatantly stated as much when I said that I "do not
expect you or anyone else to subscribe to these opinions unless you too
have made similar observations, repeatedly, throughout the years."


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    :: :: :: :: ::     Synth F.    synth@deepthought.unm.edu    U S E N E T   
 :: :: :: :: :: :: ::  Oberheim    synth@yenta.alb.nm.us             in color!
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"Bula vinaka, beachside!" 
Newsgroups: talk.rape