HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Tim Starr)
Subject: Re: She's baaaaack.....Camille Paglia
Organization: UDel, School of Life & Health Sciences
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 08:02:49 GMT

In article <28SEP92.15394478@vax.clarku.edu> hhenderson@vax.clarku.edu writes:
}
}BTW, many prominent women authors have published in Playboy.  It's a
}nice subversive thing to do, in my opinion.  Imagine all these guys who
}buy the magazine to ogle the Playmates and wind up reading the work of
}some creative, intelligent woman.

Oh yes, it's one of the best things about both Playboy and Penthouse - not only
do we get to ogle the physical beauty of (hopefully) creative and intelligent
women, but we get to sample their thought as well.  Karen DeCrow and Betty
Freidan are both feminists who've recently appeared in at least one of these
magazines - in print, that is, not in pictorials.

}>   (It is with some interest that I have noted in the course of this
}>discussion that conservatives' much-vaunted immunity to trendy humbug
}>seems to evaporate when the humbug is on their side of the fence.)
}
}Having spent my entire life between the two camps, I have noted with
}great interest that conservatives seem, on the whole, to be more
}willing to engage in intellectual debate than "liberals", who are
}often so hostile to opposing viewpoints that they dissolve into
}incoherent rage when their doctrinaire opinions are challenged.

My experience ha been similar.  The "liberals" (welfare statists, to be
precise, or democratic socialists) tend to aim for unity of opinion.  The
conservatives tend to dissent from this goal, and aim for critique of their
unity.  Would that conservatives had a mor than purely negative position,
though!


Tim Starr - Renaissance Now! - Think Universally, Act Selfishly
starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu

"True greatness consists in the use of a powerful understanding to enlighten
oneself and others." - Voltaire
From: kamorgan@athena.mit.edu (Keith Morgan)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Enforced Shakespeare?
Date: 7 Oct 92 01:14:05 GMT
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology


	Mike Godwin asks about Shakespeare:

	Could you name some plays that were left unperformed for *300* years?

One for sure: _Troilus and Cressida_. First record of performance in
English is 1907. The critic for the _Times_ wasn't impressed and
concluded that it was "better left unacted." In the 20th century it
has been rediscovered and is now performed quite regularly. 

Keith

P.S. For those who have never read it it's Shakespeare's tale of the
Trojan War.
  
--
Keith Morgan		 |I've always had a secret desire to harangue
kamorgan@athena.mit.edu  |a crowd of people for 10 hours in the
		         |sweltering heat. It's the origin of my
		         |fascination with public language.
From: pingleto@ncsa.uiuc.edu (Mike Pingleton)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re:  Enforced Shakespeare
Date: 30 Sep 92 19:33:49 GMT
Organization: Nat'l Ctr for Supercomp App (NCSA) @ University of Illinois

When you consider how many times television and movie screenwriters have 
drank at William's well, certainly the storylines should seem familiar
to kids.  Anyone care to point out a few, spin a new thread?

Mike "Quick, Henry, the Fifth!" Pingleton
From: gxs11@po.CWRU.Edu (Gary Stonum)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Enforced Shakespeare?
Date: 30 Sep 1992 22:19:46 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: gxs11@po.CWRU.Edu (Gary Stonum)
NNTP-Posting-Host: slc12.ins.cwru.edu


	Note: probably of interest only to the few and the similarly
	assailed. 

In a previous article, chucks@uars2.acd.ucar.edu (Chuck Smythe) says:
>
>The chairman of the Caltech English Department in the 60's, Dirty Dave, was
>faced with the desperate problem of interesting workaholic young technocrats
>to Culture.  So the reading list included _Lysistrata_, _Sons and Lovers_,
>_Madame Bovary_....I actually did my reading for lit classes as recreation
>when I wearied of homework.
>
>			Chuck Smythe
>
You must have been there at the right time.  In 65-66, when Hallet Smith
was head they had us reading a mimeographed edition of pastoral poems
and several other tedious and/or badly excerpted Standards.  On the other
hand P.K. Dick's stepbrother was a fellow frosh and contributor to the
literary magazine.  (The gene pool for talent must have been 
on the other side of the family, but Richard certainly knew some
good stories about the low-rent literary life.) 

	Gary
-- 
      ||    Gary Lee Stonum                gxs11@po.cwru.edu    ||
      ||    English Department                  216-368-3342    ||
      ||    Case Western Reserve University                     ||
      ||    Cleveland, OH 44106-7117                            ||
From: s891961@minyos.xx.rmit.oz.au (Peter David Cupit)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Women in horror (was Re: Lady mystery writers ...)
Date: 28 Sep 92 09:42:29 GMT
Organization: RMIT Computer Centre
NNTP-Posting-Host: minyos.xx.rmit.oz.au

fi@grebyn.com (Fiona Webster) writes:



Yes and what about Anne Rice,  one of my favorite authors.



  s891961@minyos.xx.rmit.oz.au
  s891961@godzilla.cgl.rmit.oz.au
>							Fiona
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: jyc@leo.Stanford.EDU (Jon Corelis)
Subject: Re: She's baaaaack.....Camille Paglia
Organization: DSO, Stanford University
Date: 27 Sep 92 16:56:06 GMT

twain@milton.u.washington.edu (Barbara Hlavin) writes:

>In article <25SEP92.21331152@vax.clarku.edu> hhenderson@vax.clarku.edu writes:

>>I love and adore Camille.  I disagree with most of what she says,
>>including her excoriations of "feminists" (she *is* one, and should
>>admit it) 
>>
>>
>*Ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-HA-HA-HA!*
>

   As it happens, Paglia admits she's a feminist in an interview that
appears in the magazine section of today's San Francisco Examiner.  In
fact she says, "History will show that I am one of the great feminists
of the 20th century."

   (Barbara? ... Barbara? ... Hey, is there a doctor in the newsgroup?)
From: everett@hpcvra.cv.hp.com (Everett Kaser)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Question on author estates and rights
Date: 29 Sep 92 18:40:31 GMT
Article-I.D.: hpcvra.142460001
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Co., Corvallis, OR, USA

In reading a number of notes on Project Gutenberg and the CD from Walnut Creek
with bunches of public domain works, I've gathered that anything published
before 1917 is currently in the public domain.  This means that, for example,
the first few Tarzan and John Carter of Mars novels by Edgar Rice Burroughs
should be in the public domain now, no?

A second question/point of confusion is that the Estates of authors like
Edgar Rice Burroughs and Arthur Conan Doyle seem to still wield quite a bit of
control over use of the characters from those novels.  For example, does the
Estate of Arthur Conan Doyle own a trademark on the character of Sherlock
Holmes?  Else why do various productions require "permission" from "the Estate
of A. Conan. Doyle" when doing take-offs on those characters?

** Everett Kaser                   Hewlett-Packard Company
** ...hplabs!hp-pcd!everett        work: (503) 750-3569   Corvallis, Oregon
** everett@hpcvra.cv.hp.com        "Today is a good day for change."
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: mtaranto@shearson.com (Mark Taranto)
Subject: Joe Green among the r.a.b.ble
Organization: Yale CS Mail/News Gateway
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 02:20:56 GMT

 
Well, I broke down & called Joe Green to find out why he has not yet
reappeared on the net.  He told me that he hopes to be back soon.  He
is trying to get an account at the University of Minnesota, and will
then get on with his life among the r.a.b.ble.
 
He is taking two classes at the University (as we Golden Gophers call it),
and trying to come up with his dissertation topic.  One of the classes is
a Joyce seminar with Chester Anderson.


Mark
From: cb@tamarack13.timbuk (Chris Brewster)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Native American Indian novels
Date: 6 Oct 92 17:14:05 GMT
Article-I.D.: tamarack.CB.92Oct6121401
Distribution: usa
Organization: pubs
In-reply-to: wismith@amelia.nas.nasa.gov's message of Mon, 5 Oct 92 21:17:23 GMT

rahim writes:

      Could someone recommed some Native American Indian novels, in 
      which native spirituality is encountered.

Louise Erdrich is part Indian, and all her novels concern Indians,
though I don't know if spirituality enters into them.

Chris Brewster
cb@cray.com
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: kurmas@ttd.teradyne.com
Subject: Re: Sue Grafton novels
Organization: Teradyne Inc., Telecommunications Division
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 92 04:05:19 GMT

In article <1992Sep23.020808.8273@newsroom.utas.edu.au>, stuart.mayne@cc.utas.edu.au (stuart mayne) writes:
> In article <lblab7INN7k4@exodus.Eng.Sun.COM>, kcr@rushforth.Eng.Sun.COM (Kevin Rushforth) writes:
>> 
>> I was thinking about reading a mystery or three; something in the vein
>> of Agatha Christie's novels, only better written.  What is the general
>> opinion of Sue Grafton's Kinsey Mahone (sp?) books?  Are the books
>> serialized such that one must start at "A is for Alibi" and proceed
>> from there?  If not, which ones are the best?
>> 
>> Also, are there other mystery writers who would fit the bill, and who
>> are worth checking out?
> 
> Kevin,you could have a look at a mystery literature listserv called DorothyL at
> listserv@kentvm.kent.edu I have been subscribed to the list since March this
> year and have found loads of great books to read. Members of the list have 
> compiled lists of mysteries according to type; historical, musical, culinary,
> etc.. For mysteries in the Christie mold look to Margery Allingham, D L Sayers.
> I have read -A for Alibi-, by Sue Grafton on the advice of members of the mystery
> listserv, it was okay, but for contemorary mystery I think PD James is superior.
> You might also try Umberto Eco's -The Name of the Rose-. Generally I find
> mysteries are a fun genre to read.
> Cheerio
> Bingo

One author I haven't seen mentioned is Dorothy Simpson.  She's a British
author and has won the Silver Dagger award for at least a couple of her novels.
Her main character is D.I. Luke Thanet.

Also, if someone can send me some information about the mystery literature
listserv mentioned above, I'd greatly appreciate it.

Thanks!
Michelle

Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,rec.arts.sf.written
From: mem@mv.mv.com (Mark E. Mallett)
Subject: Re: Notes on Asimov's "Foundation" trilogy
Organization: MV Communications, Inc.
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 05:34:50 GMT

In article <1992Sep29.040915.26788@datamark.co.nz> thomas@datamark.co.nz (Thomas Beagle) writes:
>You can't predict the weather with any accuracy?
>
>I can.
>
>Summers tend to be hotter than winters where I live. So far that has
>been 100% accurate.

Better tell the NSF to throw away all those supercomputers.  The answer
has been found!

-mm-

PS: Don't forget to tell them that we have alternating periods of
dark and light.

-- 
Mark E. Mallett  MV Communications, Inc./ PO Box 4963/ Manchester NH/ 03108
Bus. Phone: 603 429 2223    Home: 603 424 8129     BIX: mmallett
Internet: mem@mv.MV.COM  ( uucp: ...{decvax|harvard}!mv!mem )
Looking for news and mail in southern NH / northern MA?  Try MV!
From: amnell@klaava.Helsinki.FI (Marko Amnell)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: the Novel of Ideas-- is it a good Idea?
Date: 4 Oct 92 21:40:16 GMT
Organization: University of Helsinki

In article <1992Oct4.193441.14528@news.acns.nwu.edu> myboy@casbah.acns.nwu.edu
(Lewis Murtaugh) writes:

>In article <1992Oct3.172834.19737@yang.earlham.edu> jessec@yang.earlham.edu writes:
>>
>>   I'd like to hear what people think about the Novel of Ideas.  When 
>>writers like Milan Kundera and Thomas Pynchon weave philosophical and 
>>scientific concepts into the backgrounds of their books...
>
>   --Jesse.
>
>I'd have to say, at least in the case of Thomas Pynchon, that the Ideas he
>puts into his novels strengthen them, and that he almost never uses his
>characters as mouthpieces...

Pynchon certainly is (or rather, was; he's definitely past his peak) a
writer of unusual genius.  I wouldn't call him a philosopher, except in
the sense that eg. Maurice Blanchot might be called a philosopher or
'thinker'.  The number of clever scientific metaphors, weird historical
allusions, and offbeat characters who populate his novels does boggle
the mind.  I read _V_ very slowly and savoured every delicious bit of
it.  I had the book  with me in Florence at the Uffizi.  "She hangs on
the western wall...".  I also really liked what he did with Malta.

_The Crying of Lot 49_ I read years ago very quickly, and I don't
remember much, except that he used the Thurn und Taxis postal horn
symbol in a clever way to represent the 'conspiracy', Oedipa Maas had some
kind of thermodynamical adventure with a spray can in her toilet, and
the that the novel ended with "she waited for the crying of lot 49".

The other day a girl next to me in Engel, my favourite Helsinki cafe,
was reading _49_.  She was underlining just about every other line.
I couldn't help asking.  Yep, you guessed it, essay topic.

I started to read _Gravity's Rainbow_ and liked it alot.  It was a copy
I borrowed from my brother and I forgot it on a 747 flying back from
Cairo.  I bought him a brand new hardcover to replace his beat-up
second-hand.  That's the kind of guy I am.  I never finished it.  I
got up to the part where somebody gets flushed down the toilet and
ends up in a surreal sewer-system singing "the shit song" or something.
'Must remember to finish it someday.

I looked at his early stuff once.  I remember he was very apologetic
about it in the Preface.  I don't remember if the short stories were
any good, though.

So, naturally, I had high hopes when I heard on the BBC Late Show that
Pynchon (remember him, hippie dude, engineer, etc. ) had written a _new_
novel.  I rushed out to buy _Vineland_ hot off the presses.  You can
imagine my dissappointment.  I don't think I got to page 20 before I
threw the book accross the room.  And to think I blew $30 on the junk!
Books are expensive in Finland because of an infernally high VAT.

Maybe Pynchon will come back out of his senses and write another good
book someday.  I doubt it, though.  He's probably given all he's got.

-- 
Marko Amnell
amnell@klaava.helsinki.fi
Graduate Student in Philosophy
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: tdlg9831@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Tracey Dianne Layng)
Subject: Re: Books in the time of school
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 00:10:24 GMT

In high school, I really liked and am still enamoured of "Ozymandias"
 and "The Hunting of the Snark". Books that I really enjoyed were
"The Confessions of Nat Turner" ( I sobbed through the end of the book
in study hall. I couldn't help myself) and 1984. Of course, there was
also Swift's "A Modest Proposal" for a good, healthy chortle.

Tracey
UIUC
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: jchokey@leland.Stanford.EDU (James Alexander Chokey)
Subject: Re: She's baaaaack.....Camille Paglia
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 92 07:40:17 GMT

In article <1992Sep28.033220.4009@eff.org> mnemonic@eff.org (Mike Godwin) writes:
>In article <1992Sep27.182846.18896@leland.Stanford.EDU> jchokey@leland.Stanford.EDU (James Alexander Chokey) writes:
>
>>	This is, I think, one of the best things about Paglia-- that she's
>>continually being lambasted as a conservative, a reactionary, etc.
>
>As Paglia states herself in the current issue of SPY (her letter appears
>in the letter column), she voted for Jesse Jackson in the '88 primary, and
>she supports Clinton this year.
>

	Not that I think you were being malicious or purposefully dissimulative
but I feel like I should point out that you seem to be taking my statement
_way_ out of context.  My point basically was that one of the best things
about Paglia is that she is continually being labelled a conservative/
reactionary, but that's she is, in fact, quite radical (by American standards,
that is).

	--  Jim C. <jchokey@leland.stanford.edu>



Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: chucks@uars2.acd.ucar.edu (Chuck Smythe)
Subject: Re: Darwin bio
Organization: Ntl Center for Atmospheric Research, Atmospheric Chemistry
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 06:18:53 GMT

In article <1992Sep29.225728.10075@hellgate.utah.edu> speterse%peruvian.utah.edu@cs.utah.edu (soren--Ms. Jackson if you're nasty) writes:

 >My only complaint is that they could have done a better job of
 >putting Darwin in a *scientific* context.  One of the things I
 >learned from the book was that there were a lot of evolutionary
 >theories floating around in the late eighteenth and early nineteenth
 >century, often differing rather subtly from each other.  It isn't 
 >always immediately clear just what it is that distinguishes Darwin's 
 >from all the others.

Loren Eisley's _Darwin's Century_ is probably the book you want.  It reviews
most of Darwin's predecessors and contemporaries in the field with just
the purpose of sorting all this out.

			Chuck Smythe
Xref: sparky rec.arts.books:17698 rec.arts.sf.written:13441
From: s891961@minyos.xx.rmit.oz.au (Peter David Cupit)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Notes on Asimov's "Foundation" trilogy
Date: 6 Oct 92 09:19:56 GMT
Organization: RMIT Computer Centre
NNTP-Posting-Host: minyos.xx.rmit.oz.au

mem@mv.mv.com (Mark E. Mallett) writes:

>In article <1992Sep29.040915.26788@datamark.co.nz> thomas@datamark.co.nz (Thomas Beagle) writes:
>>You can't predict the weather with any accuracy?
>>
>>I can.
>>
>>Summers tend to be hotter than winters where I live. So far that has
>>been 100% accurate.


Well,  I live in Melbourne where we often have all the seasons in one
day.   I suppose summers are often a bit warmer,  bit of uncertainty
about the actual 3 weeks when summer is likelt to occue tho' :)

Peter Cupit.


  s891961@minyos.xx.rmit.oz.au
  s891961@godzilla.cgl.rmit.oz.au
>Better tell the NSF to throw away all those supercomputers.  The answer
>has been found!

>-mm-

>PS: Don't forget to tell them that we have alternating periods of
>dark and light.

>-- 
>Mark E. Mallett  MV Communications, Inc./ PO Box 4963/ Manchester NH/ 03108
>Bus. Phone: 603 429 2223    Home: 603 424 8129     BIX: mmallett
>Internet: mem@mv.MV.COM  ( uucp: ...{decvax|harvard}!mv!mem )
>Looking for news and mail in southern NH / northern MA?  Try MV!
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: jchokey@leland.Stanford.EDU (James Alexander Chokey)
Subject: Re: She's baaaaack.....Camille Paglia
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 92 09:21:56 GMT

In article <1992Sep27.012405.28579@u.washington.edu> twain@milton.u.washington.edu (Barbara Hlavin) writes:
>In article <25SEP92.21331152@vax.clarku.edu> hhenderson@vax.clarku.edu writes:
>
>>>Yes, she's back.  Camille Paglia [...]
>
>>I love and adore Camille.  I disagree with most of what she says,
>>including her excoriations of "feminists" (she *is* one, and should
>>admit it) 
>>
>
>*Ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-HA-HA-HA!*

	Hmm, for someone who blasts Paglia for "not being able to think
her way out of a paper bag," I would have expected a more intellectually
rigorous response.  Guess I was wrong. . . 


>>but I admire her intelligence and bravery, 
>>
>Try "deluded self-aggrandizing megalomania."
>>

	Try a little of both.  You have to admit that to say the sorts of
things she's saying in today's academic climate, you have to be pretty
brave.  Just because she's confident about what she's saying (however
wacky some of it may be) and is very insistent on her point of view shouldn't
be held against her.  The same could be said of the more PC line of feminist
theorists about sex, gender and culture--  they are just as vehement and firm
about their assertions and ideas. Do you hold that against them?  If you
want to disagree with Paglia's ideas, fine--- but ad hominum attacks don't
detract from her arguments-- and probably add fuel to her fire.

	Personally, I've thought Paglia to be the American Nietzche of the
20th century.  In her often-polemical writings, she mixes a great deal of
critical insight and general absurdity that fuse together into a savage 
critique of much of our current thinking about sex and gender.  Her attack,
like Nietschze's attack on Christian/bourgeois values and beliefs, is not
perhaps the most intellectually rigorous work--  but it certainly does offer
some powerful and challenging ideas alongside a lot of indefensible 
assertions and self-promoting egoism.  Personally, I think it's quite
refreshing and exciting to hear someone make the challenges she's making--
even if some of them do seem rather bizaare or distasteful.

>>
>Fine.  Camille Paglia is a pompous, dick-waving fathead.  
>>
>*Norman Mailer* is an intellectual vampire bitch.  (But at least 
>he can think his way out of a paper bag, and jesus can he write.) 
>

	I think I'll decline to respond to the name-calling portion of this
article.  Why waste bandwidth for that?


	--  Jim C. <jchokey@leland.stanford.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: re: A literary goldmine
From: <SECBH@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Date: Sunday, 4 Oct 1992 11:37:31 EDT
Organization: City University of New York/ University Computer Center

In article <68687@hydra.gatech.EDU> barclay@RAIL9000.gatech.edu (Barclay
Blanchard) writes:
>
>...  I have these awful memories of being
>forced to read [Jord Jim] when I was 21 and of skim reading it at the
>last minute....

We had an enrichment course in high school English and the book
I selected was Conrad's _Victory_.  That book is one of the more
important experiences of that period of my life.  It was not simply
a "reading experience", something which remained in the memory
compartment labelled Reading, but an experience which seemed, and
still seems, to have been part of the fabric of my life and not
something attached to it as an accessory.

As I read the book it was as if the world around me were becoming
more finely focused, and that events in my life now had a precision and
intensity which had been missing before.

In any case, _Abinger Harvest_ seems something to look for given the
quotes I have read here.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Jack Carroll   "Man is nice enough, when he is not excited by religion."
<SECBH@CUNYVM>
                                                             Mark Twain
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: ks@cs.brown.edu (Kate Sanders)
Subject: Re: Exit Shakespeare....
Organization: Brown University Department of Computer Science
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1992 14:23:31 GMT

In article <8=ap_5m@lynx.unm.edu> rsquires@cyclops.eece.unm.edu (Roger Squires) writes:
>In article <lcmklnINNnut@news.bbn.com> ncramer@labs-n.bbn.com (Nichael Cramer) writes:
>>
>>For the historians out there: Who, for that matter, was Shakespeare's
>>Shakespeare?  Homer?  Virgil?  (Surely not, say, Chaucer.)
>>
>
>	Lord North's Plutarch was a major source
>	for the Roman plays...
>

If by Shakespeare's Shakespeare, you mean a useful source of material,
both Plutarch and Holinshed were "Shakespeares." But if you mean a
dominating figure in the field, whose work is both challenging and
intimidating to newcomers, surely the answer has to be Homer or
Virgil, or maybe "the classics" as an amorphous mass. Interesting that
they've totally lost that position now (at least in this country). Are
there any current writers who are at all influenced by Greek and Latin
authors? Of course, Stockdale (Perot's vice-presidential candidate)
did quote from Epictetus in a speech yesterday, but it wasn't exactly
intellectually compelling ...

Kate



Newsgroups: rec.arts.books