From: balsamo@wmodev.enet.dec.com (Antonio L. Balsamo (Save the wails))
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: advice wanted
Date: 27 Aug 92 07:24:28 GMT
Reply-To: balsamo@wmodev.enet.dec.com (Antonio L. Balsamo (Save the wails))
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation


   Milton,

       This is in reply to your posting in soc.religion.christian, "advice
   wanted".

       I am a member of the Boston Church of Christ, a sister church of the
   L.A. Church of Christ.  What bothered me about your reply was not that you
   decided not to join (that's fine, it's your decision), but that you seem to 
   blame the Church's teachings for your decision.

   >However, there are some important issues on which I disagree with their
   >interpretation of the Bible. Because of this disagreement, I decided not
   >to become a member of that church.
   >
   >The most important points of disagreement were:
   >
   >1. They demand that you commit a lot of time to meetings with the church,

       Was this a matter of disagreeing with THEIR interpretation or was it
   REALLY a matter of YOU disagreeing with the Bible?  How do YOU interpret
   Hebrews 10:25 -

           Do not give up meeting together as some are in the habit
           of doing, but encourage one another; and all the more as
           you see the day approaching.

       Or how do you interpret Acts 2:42, which reads -

           And they devoted themselves to the Apostles teaching AND
           TO THE FELLOWSHIP, to the breaking of bread and to prayer.

       Is it their interpretation or is it the Bible, God's Word, which
   teaches that we should be at all the fellowships?  Is your disagreement
   REALLY with the L.A. Church of Christ, or is it with the Bible?

   >and demand that you are active in recruiting new members.

       What does the Bible say; what did Jesus say:

           GO therefore and MAKE DISCIPLES of all the nations
           baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and
           the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I
           commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the
           end of the age.  [Matt 28:18-20]
   
   >2. As a member, you are not allowed to date non-Christians. While I accept
   >that dating non-Christians might in some cases create problems, I cannot
   >accept their unconditional ban on such relationships.

       Again, what does the Bible say?

           DO NOT BE BOUND TOGETHER WITH UNBELIEVERS; for what
           partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what
           fellowship has light with darkness? [2 Cor 6:14]

       Here's an Old Testament example:

           Now King Solomon loved many foreign women along with the
           daughter of Pharaoh: Moabite, Ammonite, Edomite, Sidonian,
           and Hittite women, from the nations concerning which the
           Lord had said to the sons of Israel, "You shall NOT associate
           with them, neither shall they associate with you, for they
           will surely turn your heart away after their gods."  Solomon
           held fast to these in love.  And he had seven hundred wives,
           princesses, and three hundred concubines, and his wives TURNED
           HIS HEART AWAY.  For it came about when Solomon was old, HIS
           WIVES TURNED HIS HEART AWAY after other gods; and his heart
           was not wholly devoted to the Lord his God, as the heart of
           David his father had been.   [I Kings 11:1-4]

   >Also, their definition of who is a Christian is very narrow. They seem to
   >consider only themselves to be true Christians.

       We believe that the Church of Christ's definition of who is a Christian 
   is who the Bible would define as being a christian.  If you disagree with 
   who the Bible (the book upon which Christianity is based) says is a 
   christian, fine.  But don't hold that against the Church of Christ; we are 
   just striving to go by the Bible.  For the record, we do NOT believe that 
   we are the only true Christians; but we do believe that WHAT WE TEACH is of 
   the Bible and that only those who enter the kingdom in the WAY that the 
   Bible teaches are true Christians.

   >3. According to their interpretation, "sexual immorality" includes having
   >sex before marriage. If a man and a woman love each other, I consider it
   >acceptable for them to have sex, provided of course that they are not
   >involved in other relationships at the same time.

       Gee, according to the dictionary, 'sexual immorality' includes having
   sex before marriage.  Do you disagree with the dictionary also?  But beyond
   Websters, the Greek word translated 'sexual immorality' in the NIV actually
   means 'fornication'.  Look that one up in the dictionary and tell me what
   you find.

       So again I ask, is it according to OUR interpretation, or does the
   Bible REALLY teach that?

   >Now I am looking for a church whose doctrine agrees with my own beliefs.

       I appreciate you candor.  I believe this says it all; this is the REAL
   issue.  It seems that you already feel that all your beliefs are "right 
   on", so you are looking for a church that simply tickles your ears and 
   tells you "don't worry, you're all right", right?  You will be interested 
   to know that the Bible talks about YOU:

           For the time will come when they will not endure sound
           doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they
           will accumulate for themselves teachers IN ACCORDANCE TO
           *THEIR* OWN DESIRES; and will turn away their ears from
           the truth, and will turn aside to myths. [2 Tim 4:3-4]

   >I would appreciate any comments or suggestions.

       This may have been more than you asked for.  I hope not.  I know that
   this may have seemed harsh and unloving; like having a pale of cold water
   poured on you while your taking a hot shower.  But it is my hope that it
   will wake you up.  Is there anything that I have written that is not in the
   Bible?  If you really want to be a believer in God, don't you agree that it
   should be on HIS terms and not yours?

       I have given you some Scripture in this reply which I believe show 
   clearly what the Bible teaches about the issues you raised.  I have not 
   told you what they mean; I believe that they speak for themselves.  What is 
   your understanding of these Scriptures?  Again I ask you, is your 
   disagreement with the L.A. Church of Christ, or is it with the teachings of 
   the Bible?

       What are your reasons for seeking out Christianity?  Are you looking
   for a real purpose in life?  I believe that Christianity IS the answer;  
   and that it is STILL the answer that you are looking for.  God has been
   reaching out to you through your friends at the L.A. Church of Christ.  At
   the Church of Christ, Christianity is not a game; we are serious.  We
   believe in God and in His Son, Jesus Christ.  We believe that the Bible IS
   without error and totally and completely inspired by God; the written Word
   of God.  As such, we believe that it has complete authority to dictate what
   is right and wrong, what is God's will and what is not; we believe that it
   is the foundation upon which God's kingdom on earth, Christ's church is
   built.  If the Bible says it, we believe it and we practice it.  And, since
   we believe that the Bible is truth, we call others to believe and practice
   it also.  Those who reached out to you, did so out of a genuine concern for
   you.  Wont you give God another try?

   Regards,
   Tony Balsamo

[We have had enough discussions on the Church of Christ in the past
that I don't really want to restart them.  I allowed the original
posting because it raised an issue which is rather different than the
usual one.  Many of the things that Tony sees as simply the Bible are
seen very different by others who read the Bible.  But the thing that
seemed to bother Milton the most was the teaching on extra-marital
intercourse.  And that's not peculiar to the Church of Christ.  That's
mainstream Christian teaching.

I find it strange to recommend that someone stay in the Church of
Christ, since it's not one of my favorite denominations.  But this is
a case where it might be better.  I think it's dangerous for a new
Christian to react too quickly when he finds something unexpected in
Christianity.  It might be wise to give yourself a bit of time to come
to understand what's going on.  

On the other hand, a certain discretion is needed on the side of the
church as well when dealing with new Christians.  It's probably not a
good idea to put someone under heavy pressure to immediately toe the
line.  The Kingdom is like the seed growing secretly.  We water, but
God brings the growth in his time.  To speak more directly, it often
takes time for Christian understanding to spread to our whole lives.
(Indeed it's a process that is never completely finished.)  Obviously
these decisions need to be made carefully on a case by case basis in
love.

In sum, I'd say that if Milton finds that he's being pressured to move
more quickly than he feels able, he might do better with a group that
has a bit more patience.  But I would urge him not to go looking
immediately for a hyper-liberal group simply because there are things
about Christianity that he finds surprising or hard to deal with.

--clh]