HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: buchignani@hg.uleth.ca
Subject: Re: Ghost Dance and precedents
Reply-To: buchignani@hg.uleth.ca
Organization: University of Lethbridge
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1992 15:31:46 GMT

Actually, not only are there many examples all around the world, but
also there is a big anthropology literature on them--as millenarian
movements, cargo cults (re Oceania, Melanesia).

Norman Buchignani
Department of Anthropology
University of Lethbridge
From: wiener@duke.cs.duke.edu (Edward Wiener)
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Re: Japanese POWs in the USSR during WW2
Date: 31 Aug 92 20:57:04 GMT
Organization: Duke University Computer Science Dept.; Durham, N.C.


>msirbu@next6.cs.umr.edu (Mihai Sirbu) quoted this in soc.culture.romanian:
>> RFE/RL Daily Report No. 166, August 31, 1992
>> The Japanese Kyodo News Service on 29 August said that Russian
>> President Boris Yeltsin may formally apologize for the Soviet
>> seizure of 600,000 Japanese World War II prisoners of war when he
>> visits Japan in mid-September.

Jack Campin:

>So what's to apologize for?  Presumably these were the troops captured in
>Manchuria after eight years of conducting the worst genocide in history?
>For the Russians to now say *they* were in the wrong is revisionism on a
>scale that makes Irving look tentative.  Or am I missing something?




      I agree with you, Jack.  Russian self-esteem is truly at a
      low point.  What's next?  An apology to Germany for the
      "seizure" of Nazi prisoners-of-war?


-- Eduard Wiener
From: jewell@mace.cc.purdue.edu (Larry Jewell)
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Re: Upcoming problems of naming
Date: 28 Aug 92 16:42:28 GMT
Organization: Purdue University

In article <5255@blue.cis.pitt.edu.UUCP> hpb@hpb.cis.pitt.edu (Harry Bloomberg) writes:
>   Let's call the two new nations East Mutluland and West Mutuland.
>
>   Hey, if we name two countries after this fellow, maybe he'll feel
>compelled to move there! :-) :-)
>
>Harry Bloomberg
>hpb@vms.cis.pitt.edu

Hopefully he will then commit genocide on himself.


-- 
#Larry W. Jewell (ex-USN)     WWII-L Listowner    jewell@mace.cc.purdue.edu # 
#"Sunday's horoscope is noteworthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly#
#unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life." #
#--"Your Horoscope," L.A. Evening Herald Express, Saturday, Dec. 6, 1941.   #
Newsgroups: soc.history
From: tjones@harriett.ncsa.uiuc.edu
Subject: Re:  Genocide
Organization: Nat'l Ctr for Supercomp. Appl.
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 01:40:44 GMT

I am preparing a research paper on this subject and would appreciate some 
assistance from this group.  I am interested in obtaining opinions to the 
following questions to be used on a graph:

1.  What is genocide (not just the definition)?

2.  What are the stages involved in genocide?

3.  How many instances of genocide have there been? (Against whom, 
initiated by who, and rank according to severity, from worst to least - 
worldwide.)

4.  How many and which one(s) have succeeded and why?

5.  Is genocide right?  Why or why not?

6.  What is, if any, the difference between genocide and massacre?

7.  Where would you place "war" in correlation with genocide and massacre? 
 Or, are they all one and the same?

I hope that these  questions don't offend and/or anger anyone.  Thanks in 
advance. 

I have chosen to be incognito for personal as well as obvious reasons ... 
I'm supposed to be working! ! ! ! ! !
From: ed_eck@milkwy.enet.dec.com
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Re:         Pilgrams
Date: 4 Sep 92 18:25:15 GMT
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation


In article <1992Sep4.124212.1@kean.ucs.mun.ca>, olaf@kean.ucs.mun.ca writes...
>In article   <92248.075248C05705DA@wuvmd.wustl.edu>,         C05705DA@WUVMD writes:
>> Does anybody know the name of the Indian nation or tribe in particular
>> that first met the pilgrams?
> 
>The Wampanoag Indians; their sachem was Massasoit. 


It's ironic, but the first Native American (Squanto) to walk into the
Plymouth settlement and say hello had left London, England, somewhat
after the Pilgrims had sailed from Europe. He had been captured by 
Europeans some years before, escaped, and hitched a ride to the New
World; his tribe had died of disease and he had wintered with the
...Wampanogs?

I get the feeling that the ("New England") Indians were gradually 
combining against the Europeans at this time, and becomming increasingly 
hostile. Before their Plymoth landing, the Pilgims were attacked at one 
of their landings on Cape Cod (Though this may have been retribution for
their invasion and grave-robbing at Nauset [Wellfleet?]), thought I'm 
sure it was only by accident that Elder Brewster stepped into the
deer snare...(things they don't tell you about American history...)
My sources say the Pilgims did not become hostile to the Indians until
after they heard the news of the massacre at Jamestown (After all when
half of your people are dead and the survivors know they're going to
starve if they don't get some crops planted, you'd be a damned fool
to get the locals pissed off at you without a good reason.)

Ed E. (whose 11th great grandfather was born on board the Mayflower in Plymouth
Bay)
From: anthony@cs.uq.oz.au (Anthony Lee)
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Re: 50 Years Ago: Friday, 28 August, 1942
Date: 29 Aug 92 03:52:07 GMT
Reply-To: anthony@cs.uq.oz.au

In <BtpCCF.LCH@lawday.DaytonOH.NCR.COM> military@att.att.com (Bill Thacker) writes:


>Fighting continues across New Guinea.  At Milne Bay, the Australians hold
>firm, but the Japanese gain some ground inland over the Owen-Stanley Range.

I hope the modulator would accept this question.

The Kokoda tracks (Owen-Stanley Range) where the Japanese and Australian fought 
is very very steep in many places.  I doubt it very much that the Japanese
can bring artillery pieces over it so why did the Australians fought for
the tracks ?  Wouldn't it make more sense to let Japanese move over the
range and then engage as they the Southern slope before they reach 
Port Moresby ?
--
Anthony Lee (Time Lord Doctor) (These are my opinions !)
email: anthony@cs.uq.oz.au	voice:+(61)-7-3651204 FAX:+(61)-7-3651999
SNAIL: Department Computer Science, The University of Qld, 
       St Lucia, Qld 4072, Australia
From: jws7@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (JEFF W SCHRAMM)
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Technological history and Progress
Date: 2 Sep 92 01:17:58 GMT
Organization: Lehigh University


    Greetings,

    I am interested to know the feelings on technology and the concept of
    progress.  There is some debate as to whether Technology drives progress
    or vice versa and also if any or all of it was worth it.  Also did it all
    really start at good old Coalbrookdale as is the prevailing opinion?  And
    finally, If technology was able to do soo much in the immediate post WW II
    era (Apollo, Automobiles, Aricraft, Nuclear Energy, Etc.) Why has
    technology seemed to fail us in recent years( Challenger, Automobiles,
    Environmental concerns, etc.)?

    Just Curious,

    Jeff Schramm, Lehigh Univ.

    P.S. I kinda like Turkish History and all but enough is enough folks.
From: Marc.Cormier%nautical@r-node.gts.org (Marc Cormier)
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Juan de la Cosa, Cabot?
Date: 26 Aug 92 07:08:58 GMT
Reply-To: Marc.Cormier%nautical@r-node.gts.org (Marc Cormier)
Organization: Public Access UNIX Information System
X-Posting-Software: UnixBBS 1.03 S/N 120921


    Does anybody still study the Juan de la Cosa map of 1500 and the ancient
debate on Giovanni Caoboto's landfall. I would like to know what the latest
opinion is on the represented coast of Juan de La Cosa between y verde and
mer descubierto por inglese. Is this still accepted as being a primitive
representation of Newfoundland, Cape Breton? And what is the general
assumption concerning the illa de la trenidat. Do most historians regard
this a being the St Pierre et Miquelon islands? 

    I would also like to know if any new maps have surfaced in the last two
decades during this crucial period (1497-1520)? I have cataloged about 170
maps (out of about 400 hundred) that refer to the islands of St Pierre and
Miquelon, also know on the maps as Terra England, Onze Myll Virgines, XI
Vogines, Barbatos In, Ille Verde, usually placed between Cape Race and Cape
Breton. (Capo rasso, raxo, ratz... and cape Briton, terra de los Bretomes
etc...) The maps I cataloged are over the period of 1500-1800. But I am
especially interested in the 1497-1520 period.

--
Marc Cormier, user of the UnixBBS System @ r-node.gts.org
E-Mail: Marc.Cormier%nautical@r-node.gts.org

R-node Public Access Unix/BBS - Free Access to the World thru Usenet
                 Data: 1-416-249-5366 (3 Lines)
     Shell Accounts Available - Contact marc@r-node.gts.org
Newsgroups: soc.history
From: ddl683@csc.albany.edu (Dreaming)
Subject: native american question
Followup-To: soc.history
Organization: Hall of Holy Holdsworth, Albany, NY
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 92 21:16:03 GMT

What was the name of the Seneca chief who became director of the Bureau of
Indian Affairs?  I believe he had both a tribal and an anglicized name, but
unfortunately I can't remember them.  (My faulty memory also tells me he
held power during the Grant presidency, was associated with some scandal,
and eventually dismissed.)

Can anyone provide a quick summary?  Seems like interesting stuff.  Are
there any good studies of this individual?

						Derek L.
--
no left turns unstoned
ddl683@csc.albany.edu
Xref: sparky soc.history:7809 soc.culture.japan:7395
From: fsars@acad3.alaska.edu (Allen R Sparks)
Newsgroups: soc.history,soc.culture.japan
Subject: Re: The Russo-Japanese War (part 2)
Date: 27 Aug 92 19:56:33 GMT
Organization: University of Alaska Fairbanks

In article <1992Aug26.185015.6334@u.washington.edu>, yeonwook@hardy.u.washington.edu (Mark Choi) writes:
> In article <11891@optilink.UUCP> cramer@optilink.UUCP (Clayton Cramer) writes:
>>In article <1992Aug21.180605.6076@island.COM>, fester@island.COM (Mike Fester) writes:
>>> In article <Bt9JuD.KAJ@news.cso.uiuc.edu> slkg9733@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Steven L. Kellmeyer) writes:
>># #Ain't that the truth, Abba.  Noticed your thread, and thought I'd throw in
>># #a side bit of info, in case you didn't already know it.  Seems the Japanese
>># #petitioned the League of Nations to remove a part of their charter which
>># #referred to Asians as "inferior races".  The League refused.  The Japanese
>># #left the League shortly thereafter.  For an excellent overview of the 
>># #Pacific war as a race war, read John Dwyer's "War without Mercy" - it
>># #changed the way I looked at the whole theatre of operations.  Combine his
>># #evidence with what we already know about biology-as-destiny in the Third
>># #Reich, and the whole damn thing gets very scary in a radically new way.
>># 
>># Why? It's difficult to see the Pacific War as a "race war". After all, the
>># Japanese attacked, subjugated, and attempted to eradicate the culture of
>># Korea, and last I checked, they are of the same race (in fact, the Japanese
>># Royal family is most likely descended from Korean nobility). They then
>>
>>Hmmm.  From what I've read, the Koreans were always regarded as a
>>lower class of human by the Japanese.
> 
> What is your point? Does a people's opinion always reveal the truth?
> Since the Mongols were regarded as sub-human, does that really make them
> sub-human? You must remember that Korea and Japanese history goes back
> much farther then just the last 500 modern dynastic years. It was only 
> until around the 17th century Japan got up to the same technological 
> and cultural level as China and Korea, and when Japan really began to

The point is that we've been discussing the Russo-Japanese war which
took place well after the 17th century.  We've also thrown in Pearl
Harbor and how the Japanese's success during Russo-Japanese could have 
influenced their decision to attack.  Not only have we talked about
Japanese racism, but U.S. and European racism.  No where have I seen
anyone imply that anyone is sub-human, just that significant segments of
both Japanese and European/American society had these opinions during
the 19th and 20th centuries.  

The Japanese are a xenophobic society, and this is underscored by the
way the Japanese treat their own citizens that are of Korean descent. 
We, Americans that is, may think that "all orientals look alike" but
they don't to the Japanese, and they didn't to the Khmer Rouge in
Cambodia when they instituted the killing fields.
=== Al Sparks
Newsgroups: soc.history
From: jmc@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (John McCarthy)
Subject: Re: Japanese POWs in the USSR during WW2
Reply-To: jmc@cs.Stanford.EDU
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University
Date: 1 Sep 92 21:54:49

The Soviets were in the war against Japan for only about 10 days.
Isn't it excessive to take 600,000 prisoners and hold them as slave
labor for about 10 years under conditions in which 60,000 died?

The U.S. and other countries in the war against Japan released
prisoners promptly.
--
John McCarthy, Computer Science Department, Stanford, CA 94305
*
He who refuses to do arithmetic is doomed to talk nonsense.
From: cramer@optilink.UUCP (Clayton Cramer)
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Re: there's more to history than war
Date: 3 Sep 92 16:36:02 GMT
Organization: Optilink Corporation, Petaluma, CA

In article <Btz500.Mz2@apollo.hp.com>, nelson_p@apollo.hp.com (Peter Nelson) writes:
#    I recently posted a request for journals or diaries of daily life in
#    the 19th century.  From this mailing list I got none except for a
#    couple of suggestions for war or camp journals and a travel journal.
#    I did find two sources on my own at the Sturbridge Village (museum)
#    bookstore in Massachusetts, and I anticipate finding other references
#    from faculty members of various history departments now that the school
#    year is starting.   
# 
#    Now, military history is one of my abiding interests.  In fact I'm 
#    currently reading a fascinating book by Byron Farwell called _Queen
#    Victoria's Little Wars_ and I have a quite a collection of other books
#    on military history subjects.   
# 
#    But I'm somewhat troubled by the way history forums, and especially 
#    this one, are dominated by military matters.  I would say less than 10%
#    of the postings here do not relate in some way to war, revolution, 
#    uprisings, military technology and similar topics.    Why is this?
#    Is this a "guy" thing -- does it reflect the way Usenet is a mainly 
#    male institution and guys are more interested in violence?   Or does
#    it reflect the way people have internalized the definition of "history"
#    we learned in school (kings, conquests, dates)?  

1. It probably reflects the traditional political emphasis of
history -- which has been changing for some years now.

2. A lot of people on USENET are technonerds like me.  We tend to
be interested in technology.

3. Many of the arguments about military history, revolution, etc.
happen because there are current political implications, and thus,
tempers get heated.

# ---peter
-- 
Clayton E. Cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer  My opinions, all mine!
Alcohol prohibition didn't work; drug prohibition doesn't work; gun
prohibition won't work.
Newsgroups: soc.history
From: thornley@nano.cs.umn.edu (David H. Thornley)
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Re: 50 Years Ago: Thursday, 27 August, 1942
Date: 31 Aug 92 18:11:02 GMT
Organization: University of Minnesota, Minneapolis, CSci dept.

In article <24339@oasys.dt.navy.mil> swilliam@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Steve Williams) writes:
>In sci.military, military@att.att.com (Bill Thacker) writes:
> >
> >The battleship USS Iowa, first of a new class, is launched.
> >
> >"[Assistant Secretary of the Navy Ralph A Bard] said he would guarantee
> >that she would prove superior to anything that either the Japanese or the
> >Germans could build, with all their stealth." - The New York Times, on the
> >battleship USS Iowa
>
>Was Bard implying that USS Iowa was superior to Japan's Yamato?  Yamato
>was with Japan's main force in the Battle of Midway, June 1942.  Or was
>Bard unware of the Yamato's existence or strength?
>
It was known at the time that the Japanese were building new battleships, but
not how large the ships were.  The estimates were that the ships were about
the same as Iowa in size and guns, and that the U.S. ships would be better
built.  In fact, Yamato was much larger than Iowa, and had much larger guns.
Whether it was superior is a matter of speculation.  In a one-on-one fight,
I suspect Yamato would have won due to sheer size, but the U.S. battleships
were more generally useful (as anti-aircraft ships) than the larger
Japanese battleships.

Also, your use of the term "main force" might mislead some - it was the
Japanese designation, and this force was the battleships planned to complete
the defeat of the U.S.  It never got anywhere near the fighting, and in
retrospect was completely misplaced.  It was never spotted by the U.S.,
and therefore gave us no look at Yamato.  I doubt any U.S. fighting man
actually saw the battleships until 1944.

If you want to see some really bad combat intelligence, find some _Jane's_
_Fighting_Ships_ from WWII.  The entries on the British and American navies
were pretty accurate, but almost nothing useful was known about Japanese
construction past about 1940.

DHT
Newsgroups: soc.history
From: cb@tamarack13.timbuk (Chris Brewster)
Subject: Re: Upcoming problems of naming
In-reply-to: geb@dsl.pitt.edu's message of 31 Aug 92 16:00:43 GMT
Organization: pubs
Date: 31 Aug 92 14:44:01 CDT


I wrote:

   >We've gotten in the habit of focusing on decades in a big way.  
   >I never heard any consciousness of "the fifties" as an era until
   >1966.

Gordon Banks writes:

   Well, how about "The Roaring Twenties"?  "The Gay Nineties"?

I don't know what you mean by "how about", but I remember being aware
back then that earlier decades had names and historical images but my
decade (the 50s at the time) seemed to have no identity.  I don't know
when those earlier decades gained their names, but Frederick Lewis Allen
wrote "Only Yesterday" about the Roaring 20s in 1931, so the
mythologizing was already in motion.

Chris Brewster
cb@cray.com
From: lhb6v@faraday.clas.Virginia.EDU (Laura Hayes Burchard)
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Re: Dieppe
Date: 28 Aug 92 18:31:16 GMT
Organization: University of Virginia

In article <4022@moscom.UUCP> de@moscom.UUCP (David Esan) writes:
>In article <1992Aug25.151652.2541@sniap.mchp.sni.de> Mike.Hoffmann@sniap.mchp.sni.de (Mike Hoffmann) writes:
>>The author states the theory that the true "top-secret" reason for the
>>raid was sort of a follow-up operation to the St.Nazaire raid. At Dieppe
>>the German forces had installed a new guiding and locating system - 
>>pre-radar, so to speak. It seemed as if the Anglo-American radar research
>>was in a fix, and they had the impression that the Germans had developed
>>something (some Magnetron thingy) that would solve their problems, but the
>>Germans employed it in a wrong fashion.

>I have read this theory also, but have refrained from posting about it. 
>The book I found this in was "A Man called Intrepid", and it is generally
>thought here on soc.history that the book is more fiction than history.
>A different source would be better.

_Green Beach_, by James Leasor is an account of the radar mission. It
was a RAF flight sergeant named Jack Nissenthal. Interesting, well written
book. I don't have any third-party confirmations of it's authenticity, but
it has quotes from people right up to Lord Mountbatten, so at least parts
of the story must be true.

Laura



--

Address alias changed -- good addresses are now lhb4v@virginia.edu and
lhb6v@faraday.clas.virginia.edu
From: cramer@optilink.UUCP (Clayton Cramer)
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Reichstag Elections, 1919-1933, Percentage of Total Votes
Date: 26 Aug 92 17:06:00 GMT
Organization: Optilink Corporation, Petaluma, CA


A recurring question in this group is how much popular support the
Nazis had in democratic elections.  In spite of a lot of talking,
relatively few hard numbers were posted, so I dug around and found
a table in one of the texts that we used a couple of semesters back.
The table below shows the popular vote percentage received by each
of the major parties in the elections from 1919 to 1933.  Parties
that didn't get any seats aren't shown, so the totals won't add up
to 100%.  The Social Democrats were apparently bifurcated in the first
couple of elections, into a faction labeled, "Ind." and another
faction called, "Maj."  You can load this into your favorite
spreadsheet, and plot charts to your heart's content.

Reichstag Elections, 1919-1933, Percentage of Total Votes

Party,"01/19/19","06/06/20","05/04/24","12/07/24","05/20/28","09/14/30","07/31/32","11/06/32","03/05/33"
Communist,0,2.1,12.6,9.0,10.6,13.1,14.6,16.9,12.3
Social Democratic,,,20.5,26.0,29.8,24.5,21.6,20.4,18.3
Social Democratic Ind.,7.6,17.9,,,,,,,
Social Democratic Maj.,37.9,21.6,,,,,,,
Democratic,18.6,8.3,5.7,6.3,4.9,3.8,1.0,1.0,0.8
Centrum,19.7,13.6,13.4,13.6,12.1,11.8,12.5,11.9,11.7
Bavarian People's,0,4.4,3.2,3.7,3.0,3.0,3.2,3.1,2.7
Economic,0.9,0.8,2.4,3.3,4.5,3.9,0.4,0.3,0
German People's,4.4,13.9,9.2,10.1,8.7,4.5,1.2,1.9,1.1
National People's,10.3,14.9,19.5,20.5,14.2,7.0,5.9,8.8,8.0
National Socialist,0,0,6.5,3.0,2.6,18.3,37.4,33.1,43.9

"Source: L. S. Stavrianos, _The World Since 1500: A Global History_, 4th ed. (Englewood Cliffs, N.J.: Prentince-Hall, 1982), 419, quoted in Jules R. Benjamin, _A Student's Guide to History_, 5th ed., (New York: St. Martin's Press: 1991)"

One of the major areas of dispute is the March, 1933 elections.
The National Socialist and National People's Party coalition
had formed a government in January, 1933, and used their control
over police and media to artificially strengthen their position --
but even the November, 1932 elections, sometimes cited as an
example of the collapse of the Nazis, still how them as the largest
vote-getters by far, and with their coalition partners, they
had 42.9% of the vote -- more than the Communists and Social
Democrats combined.

Even with the abuse of their police power, the 1933 elections
still gave percentages to both the Communists and Social Democrats
comparable to the November, 1932 elections.  This suggests that
the National Socialist gain came only partly at the expense of the
Communists or Social Democrats, the major victims of extralegal
and legal violence, but heavily at the expense of the smaller parties.
-- 
Clayton E. Cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer  My opinions, all mine!
Alcohol prohibition didn't work; drug prohibition doesn't work; gun
prohibition won't work.