From: T9AA@SDSUMUS.BITNET (The Truth (some assembly required))
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Subject: Re: Andy, Leader and maybe Dave on the Environment
Date: 30 Aug 92 06:44:47 GMT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU

>>They are called "hunters" or "fishers."
>>However, in defining the problems, in crafting solutions and in the
>>lead of making these things issues, the self-same environmental
>>activists are driving forces.
>Nope.  They weren't even around when things got going.  (Rather, the
>only activists then were hunters/fishers.)  Even today, they're
>largely "noise" when it comes to habitat.  We have migratory birds
>because we have hunters.

For reasons of factual dearth and apathy (I don't have the facts and
I don't care), I will give you that argument. I disagree that the
catalytic converter, recycling and pollution regulations came from
hunting fees, and there is more to environment than wildlife.

>>>Yes.  LA was known as a "smoky" basin before there were cars.  Nature
>>>isn't benign.
>>Well, that was from cooking fires. The sky was smoggy when the first
>>Conquistadores came up the coast.
>There weren't enough NativeAmericans in CA for that to have been significant.

Well, that's the story I heard. I may have misheard it, but I saw a bit
on California in that "Nature: Land of the Eagle" series-within-a-series
they've been doing recently, but I don't think that it is significant
enough an issue for me to hunt up references.

>>>Since he's advocating "self-censorship" of anything other than
>>>horror stories....
>>He may be painting everything darker than it is, but then again,
>>the truth may not always be such a great motivator.
>Fine.  However, if you're going to claim a "we don't lie" high ground
>(or even "he lies, support us"), you have to abandon it to be "a great
>motivator".  What was it I've been hearing about Democrats making the
>hard choices?  (Sure, the Repubs may not be any different; what was it
>I wrote about the Demos trying to become their caricature of
>Repubs....)

If I may remind the gentleman from across the aisle, I am mearly a
college student with a concern for the environment. I speak for no
environmental organization or for any aspect of any of the many
environmental movements (you cannot tell me that the struggle to
stop hazardous waste dumping and the quest to return the California
Condor to the wild are part of the same movement). As a student, I
am in a perfect position to say "the world aught to be this way."
However, if I was working to stop ozone depletion, or to do many
of the other things tree-huggers do, I might resort to imaginative
statistics, shocking imagery, personal attacks or even outright lies
to get the ends that I am looking for.

I personally lie very little. If I was running the Dems campaign,
a "They lie, vote for us" campaign would sound good but I would be
quaking in my wing-tips hoping that they don't have audio or video
of Gore talking in the National Press Club, urging the "bad news only"
party line he seems to push. However, as I am not currently, nor do
I forsee being hired to run the Clinton race, I reserve the right to
snipe at either candidate. Politics is Politics, and while I don't
see Clinton saying "Well, I'd do *ANYTHING* to get elected, TOO,"
I do realize that both sides have Oppositions Research people with
a pile of dirt on the candidates and that more dirty politics is
going on than we see.

I couldn't see a Democrat Lee Atwater working well with the national
leadership since 1972, for example, but the Dems have tried to take
the high road to the White House and look where it has gotten them.

>>Which means decreasing the total population, which means voluntarily
>>decreasing family size (or nothing short of total war for all people
>>on earth), which is not much of a problem in the US but is vital
>>for the third world.
>Disease/famine also reduces population.  Both appear to be more
>effective than Communism and/or war in that respect.

And I won't cheerlead a famine or plague, just like I won't cheerlead
war.

>-andy

Dave
t9aa@sdsumus.bitnet
Anyone can become ANGRY. That is easy. But to be angry with the
right person, to the right degree, at the right time, foir the right
purpose and in the right way - that is not easy.
              --Aristotle

Disclaimer:  The opinions contained in this post are not the
opinions of the Administration, Faculty, or Student Body of
South Dakota State University.  Hell, they might not even
be mine.
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU