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From: IACDES@ASUACAD.BITNET (David E. Schwalm)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Subject: basic writing again and again
Date: 5 Oct 92 15:10:03 GMT
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 *** Reply to note of 10/05/92 07:45
 Where is it that we disagree, Jeff? I proposed that imitatio be one technique
 among many in a coherent 16 year writing curriculum. That's all.

 -- David E. Schwalm, Assoc. Provost for Academic Programs
 ___Arizona State University West
 ___4701 West Thunderbird Rd.
 ___Phoenix, AZ 85069-7100___(602) 543-4500
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Organization: Samford University Writing Programs
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Date:         Tue, 6 Oct 1992 12:26:04 CDT
From:         "David H. Roberts" <DHROBERT@SAMFORD.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: class size

Lisa:  I hope you will compile the responses and post them to MBU so
we all can take advantage of the numbers.  Thanks.

   __________________________________________
   David H. Roberts
   Director of University Writing Programs
   Samford University
   Birmingham, AL 35229-2207 USA
   Voice: (205) 870-2964; Fax: (205) 870-2384
   Bitnet:  DHROBERT@SAMFORD
   CIS:     72630,3633
   ------------------------------------------
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Date:         Mon, 28 Sep 1992 08:54:55 EST
From:         "(Jim Porter)" <jporter@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject:      re: what is critical thinking
              92 2:20 pm

>         I have a hard time distinguishing the claims that you make for
>         phronesis from the ways in which the rhetorical situation always
>         circumscribes the particular forms of invention that might be
>         appropriate in response to that situation.

Martin ... Good question.  My sense of Aristotle's view of phronesis
is that it is a quality of a person (writer) rather than a quality
inherent in any situation.  The personal quality of course involves
sensitivity to the constraints of the situation, but does not derive
from it.

>         Can you suggest readings on phronesis as a conceptual bridge between
>         the processes of invention and the rhetorical situation?

People in rhet/comp who've talked about phronesis include Louise
Phelps (_Composition as a Human Science_, Oxford UP, 1988); Carolyn
Miller (in various places, including an essay "What's Practical
About Technical Writing," in a collection called _Technical Writing:
Theory and Practice_, MLA, 1989); and Eugene Garver (_Machiavelli
and the History of Prudence_, U of Wisconsin P, 1987).  Rorty talks
about it here and there (I think it's central to his theories, though
he doesn't often invoke it centrally).  I don't know of anyone who
has yet addressed the _exact_ question you frame ... maybe indirectly
Richard Weaver in his stuff on the ethics of rhetoric.

Jim


--------------------
Jim Porter
Purdue University
jporter@mace.cc.purdue.edu
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Date:         Mon, 5 Oct 1992 08:49:15 -0600
From:         RONRON@USU.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Basic writing, again and again

Jim Shimabukuro -- That's okay with me.  Picasso admitted that he
somtimes painted fake Picassos.  The point of imitatio is that it
introduces them to clothes and suitcases.  Ron Shook
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Date:         Mon, 28 Sep 1992 19:48:39 HST
From:         James Shimabukuro <JAMESS@UHUNIX.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: A Check

Wouldn't you know it.  Just after I send a post about the silence of MBU, I
receive a deluge of bunnygrams.  So, where've you all been hiding?

Jim Shimabukuro
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Date:         Tue, 29 Sep 1992 10:51:08 EDT
From:         GRIDER@MOREKYPR.BITNET
Subject:      Grammar? Don't do it!

Karen,
Several MBUer's, like Jim Porter, will give you several good sources
opposing grammar-based developmental writing teaching.  All I can offer
is a bit of personal experience.

Teaching grammar to a basic writing class is, perhaps, the easiest

Teaching grammar toa basic writing class may appear to be the
easiest method, but it is not effective.  I used to do it because
it seemed the way nearly all instructors approached the class.

I'll give you an example of the kind of problems it can cause.  The
teacher can lecture about comma splices, have students complete
worksheets on comma splices, then, I guarantee, in the next assign-
ment some students who were not making comma splices will begin
making them.

Perhaps the major argument against grammar-based basic writing is
the fact that most of the basic writing students have already had
plenty of grammar lectures, through grade school, junior high and
high school, and this approach did not work.  To imagine that it
it will somehow magically take hold now that they are in college
is like imagining Bush really is "the education president".

By the way, pardon my comma splice above....

Alvin Madden-Grider
In the Appalachian foothills where there will be first frost tonight
Morehead State University
Morehead, KY 40351
grider@morekypr
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Date:         Thu, 1 Oct 1992 10:43:54 CDT
From:         Don Langham <DLANGHAM@ENGLISH.AS.UA.EDU>
Subject:      Reply to Re: Writing vs. Computing

Nick:

I don't think that your experience with student writers and word
processing is anamalous.  I've found that students will learn more
advanced features of word processing if these features are
incorporated into assignments and/or discussed during lab sessions.
(Of course, students remember best what helps them most.)  But like
Gordon, I've also seen students treat the computer like a souped up
typewriter.  For example, everyday I interrupt a student at work in
our public access lab to show him or her the benefits of forced page
breaks, multiple format rulers, tabs, the disadvantage of spacebar
alingnment, etc.  We cover most of this in our instructional material
and lab tutorials, yet I see the same problems all the time.

It's been my experience that instructors' attitudes and enthusiasm
for utilizing word processing greatly influences students' perception
of what they can accomplish with computers and how much they should
explore the technology.  Chances are that if the instructor sees the
computer as only a powerful typewriter, then so too will most of his
or her students.

--Don Langham
  University of Alabama
  DLangham@English.as.ua.edu
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Date:         Wed, 30 Sep 1992 08:39:53 EDT
From:         smh@AAL.ITD.UMICH.EDU
Subject:      Facilities open in evening hours

John, I can't think of a reason why you'd be making a Big Mistake.  Here
at Michigan we control the classroom time (well, we share it with the
Intro.Composition Program, but they don't use their half so we use
it most of the time, which is another story) but the classroom is set up
by the Computing Center folks.  That means that we don't have as much
freedom with the classroom as we would like, which is another very long
story.  But the room we teach in is open for general use in the
evenings and that doesn't seem to be a problem.  And that makes it
easier for our students to use Daedalus Mail, for instance, outside
of class time.

Susanmarie Harrington
English Composition Board
Univ. of Michigan
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Date:         Fri, 2 Oct 1992 16:21:36 EDT
From:         mer <MROSE01@UKCC.UKY.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Basic writing, again and again

Becky:        An *R* rating at the least.

          Emily D. and the Texas Chainsaw Massacre
                   $4.65 (at Wherehouse)

              I heard a buzz saw--when I died--
              The Chilliness in the vrooms
              Matched my shrill shrieks in the air--
              Between the heaves of Torn--

              His Eyes around--and Tongue let fly--
              Rude Words were blatheringly hurled
              For that last Onset--when the Springgg!
              It reverberated--off the Floor--

              I wilted my shriek-shakes--Sighed away
              What portion of me be
              Assignable--here and there was
              Left for the flies--

              With blue--smoking stumbling Buzz--
              Between the light--and whats left of me
              And then the Windows rattl'd--and then
              I could not see to see--
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Date:         Tue, 6 Oct 1992 19:55:37 CDT
From:         Wes Chapman <WESCHAP@VMD.CSO.UIUC.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Basic writing, again and again
              6 Oct 1992 17:56:34 EDT from <MROSE01@UKCC.UKY.EDU>

mer,
    I do believe you're prejudiced . . . it's not like you to make sweeping
 generalities without winking.  I suppose you don't like fusion either?
   dreaming peacefully,
        Wes
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Date:         Mon, 5 Oct 1992 11:05:11 --500
From:         "David E. Schwalm" <IACDES@ASUACAD.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Wyoming Resolution

 *** Reply to note of 10/05/92 08:42
 We ASU West (and at ASU Main, I think) we have decided to stop looking at
 teaching loads (inputs) and start looking at productivity (outputs). Wherever
 higher teaching loads have been specified, it seems to have had little effect
 on what faculty do. Our departments are currently doing an "inventory of the
 actual," looking at the number of student credit hours the department is
 producing over against the idealized output (I love this language--so
 businesslike), that is, what the unit could produce if each faculty member
 taught a normative load. We are then going to do an "optimized" version of the
 inventory, showing what we could do making the "best use" of our faculty (and
 this does not mean making everyone teach a normative load). We are going to
 try to set some educational goals--academic environment and student
 outcomes--and mobilize our resources to achieve those goals, in a context in
 which we encourage faculty to do what they do best. We are working on
 developing p/t standards that are compatible with this approach.

 -- David E. Schwalm, Assoc. Provost for Academic Programs
 ___Arizona State University West
 ___4701 West Thunderbird Rd.
 ___Phoenix, AZ 85069-7100___(602) 543-4500
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Date:         Fri, 2 Oct 1992 10:09:14 EDT
From:         mer <MROSE01@UKCC.UKY.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Basic writing, again and again

Jeff:
              I suppose that I have strained the boundaries of this flat
              medium by resorting to satire, but I *was* indeed serious
              in suggesting, by analogy to jazz pedagogy (which I know
              a bit about), that we reconsider the roles that memorization
              and imitation might play in k-16 curriculum.

              There is a physiological/cognitive dimension to rote learnings
              that more "enlightened" approaches to rhetoric and composition
              had studiously avoided in order to emphasize what Moffett insists
              is the developmental nature of abstraction and the ways that
              writing instruction could mirror those developmental stages.

              This makes sense as an attack on grammar drill instruction,
              but I'm suggesting that memorizing and copying may have a
              significant cognitive impact on the memorizer and copier,
              and by analogy i refer to the ways in which jazz students
              (for example, for all its limitations, the Ellis Marsalis school
              is famous for this approach) train their own ears and technique
              by internalizing and assimilating the ears and technique of
              great players.  And, you can tell players who aspire to
              "out" or avant-garde playing who *haven't* gone through this
              process.  They're simply awful.

              Maybe on some level, by copying great writers, one assimilates
              the conceptual as well as the syntactic rhythms of that writer.

                                                  Possible?

                                                just a thought......mer
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Date:         Tue, 6 Oct 1992 17:07:32 -0400
From:         R_CONNORS@UNHH.UNH.EDU
Subject:      Re: Basic writing, again and again

Right on, Wes!

Some New Age stuff treads perilously close to schlock, and it's tough
to defend an art form for which the line criteria are vague--why is this
one art while that one--which sounds not overwhelmingly different--
is schlock?

Still, though, when I need to relax and alpha-state out, I put on Windham
Hill stuff and not Bitches Brew.

By the way, I would be pretty hard challenged to spell out the difference
between the music of Montreux, one of my fave NA groups, which featured
Darol Anger on fiddle, and that of the Turtle Island String Quartet, a
jazz group currently featuring Anger.  Yes, there are more jazz tonalities,
but the music of both groups really swings.

Bob C.
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Date:         Sat, 3 Oct 1992 07:11:39 HST
From:         James Shimabukuro <JAMESS@UHUNIX.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Basic writing, again and again

Mer: I suppose the problem is the outcome of memorization, i.e., the impact
on the writer, the musician, etc.  If the result is, as you suggest, a sense
of forms and conceptual structures that the imitator uses as modes for the
expression of his own thoughts, feelings, etc., then the process is
effective.  If however, the result is exact, mechanical duplication, then
it's questionable.

Jim Shimabukuro
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Date:         Tue, 6 Oct 1992 08:56:34 EDT
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              <DEOS-L@PSUVM.BITNET>
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From:         * <KWB107@PSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      New book on CMC

  - - The original note follows - -

Date:     Mon, 5 Oct 1992 14:18:38 +0100
From:     N.Ismail@(Nazira Ismail, ICDL) open.ac.uk
To:       deos-l
Subject:  New book on CMC


TITLE
Collaborative learning through computer conferencing: the Najaden
papers

AUTHOR/EDITOR(S)
Kaye, A. (ed.)

Institute of Educational Technology, The Open University, Walton Hall,
Milton Keynes, United Kingdom

PUBLICATION DETAILS
Book, evaluative report
Series F: Computer and systems sciences, vol.90
Springer-Verlag in cooperation with NATO Scientific Affairs Division
Springer-Verlag, Heidelberger Platz 3, W-1000 Berlin 33, Germany
ISBN 3-540-55755-5
260p.

PUBLICATION YEAR
1992

ABSTRACT
This book analyses some of the main educational, social and
technological issues in the use of computer-mediated communication and
computer networking for online collaborative learning, both in
distance education and in corporate and organizational environments.
Collaborative learning is defined as 'individual learning as a result
of group interactions and processes'. The papers in the book arose
from a NATO Advanced Research Workshop held on the sailing ship
Najaden. (From publisher's information)

1) Learning together apart, Anthony Kaye, pp.1-24

Part I: Computer conferencing in practice
2) Telematic support for in-service teacher training, Cristina Simon,
pp.29-38

3) Waiting for electropolis, Morten Soby, pp.39-49

4) Computer mediated communication for management learning, David
McConnell, 51-68

5) Collaboration in international online teams, Elaine McCreary and
Madge Brochet, pp.69-85

6) Collaborative learning in a large scale computer conferencing
system, Jesus Rueda, pp.87-101

Part II: Ways of understanding online collaboration
7) Evaluation methodologies for computer conferencing applications,
Robin Mason, pp.105-16

8) Computer conferencing and content analysis, France Henri, pp.117-36

9) A case study approach to evaluation of computer conferencing,
Michael Waggoner, pp.137-46

10) Talking, teaching, and learning in network groups: lessons from
research, Sara Kiesler, pp.147-65

11) Understanding collaborative learning in networked organisations,
John Gundry, pp.167-78

Part III: Issues in software design
12) The challenge of conferencing system development, Oliver Vallee,
pp.181-87

13) Metaphors and the design of the human interface, Elsebeth
Korsgaard Sorensen, pp.189-99

14) Designing human interfaces for collaborative learning, Gary
Alexander, pp.201-10

15) Toward a hypermedium for collaborative learning?, Alain Derycke,
pp.211-23

16) Computer conferencing functions and standards, Jacob Palme,
pp.225-45

17) Hardware and software architecture in computer conferencing
systems, Jens Ambrosius, pp.247-55
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Date:         Mon, 5 Oct 1992 21:56:10 CDT
From:         Jim Raymond <JRAYMOND@ENGLISH.AS.UA.EDU>
Subject:      Re: class size

Lisa Gerrard:

    At the University of Alabama, class size is limited to 21 for the
first semester of composition and 22 for the second.  Special writing
classes (e.g., developmental or advanced) are generally limited to 15.

    You might get a bit of help from NCTE on this; seems like we
worked up a statement when I was on the College Section Committee.
It's very hard to find research data (other than common sense)
supporting small class size in writing courses, but the NCTE
statement may help you say that common sense is official, at least
for one major national organization.

    Hope this helps.--Jim Raymond
  Director of Freshman Composition
  English Department
  University of Alabama
  (205) 348-6488
  JRaymond@English.as.ua.edu
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Date:         Tue, 6 Oct 1992 18:08:46 CDT
From:         Bob Boston <S2.RSB@ISUMVS.IASTATE.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Class Size

At Iowa State, the Freshman Comp cap is 26, Creative Writing and Tech Writing
are 19, and Business Communication is 24.

Bob Boston
Iowa State University
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Date:         Tue, 6 Oct 1992 08:40:46 EDT
From:         Roni Keane <VKEANE@CCVM.SUNYSB.EDU>
Subject:      Re: class size

Lisa,

At Stony Brook class sizes are: 15 for basic writing classes, 25 for 101 and
30 for upper division writing courses (Intro to Fiction, etc.)

In surveys we've done, EGC 101 has proven to be a favorite course in this
institution. I think it's the humanizing factor. Class size makes it
possible for us to do all the wonderful things we do with our groups. --Roni
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Date:         Fri, 25 Sep 1992 11:49:34 -0500
From:         TWBATSON@GALLUA.BITNET
Subject:      Where's Wayne

Nancy:  he's at the English Composition Board at UMich.

Trent
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Date:         Mon, 5 Oct 1992 09:57:19 --500
From:         "David E. Schwalm" <IACDES@ASUACAD.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Wyoming Resolution

 *** Reply to note of 10/05/92 04:52
 We have found reccently that the public perception of universities is not all
 that different from the views held by the regents and the legislature. We are
 putting on a big push this year to help the legislature and the regents find
 out more about what actually goes on in the university. We are inviting the
 legislators to campus. The regents are meeting opn campuses and devoting a
 portion of their meeting to talking with faculty and students. "Case studies."
 The meeting at ASU last month was a smashing success. We need this kind of
 informational campaign, but we also need to look very closely at what we are
 doing. We can bring the image into line with the reality, but we may have to
 do a little work on the reality too. I suspect that schools in Louisiana have
 been taking cuts for so long that all the fat is out of the system.

 -- David E. Schwalm, Assoc. Provost for Academic Programs
 ___Arizona State University West
 ___4701 West Thunderbird Rd.
 ___Phoenix, AZ 85069-7100___(602) 543-4500
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Date:         Fri, 2 Oct 1992 09:31:27 MST
From:         Elizabeth Vander Lei <IDEAV@ASUACAD.BITNET>
Subject:      Imitatio

David, in your discussion of the uses of imitatio you distinguish between
"pedagogic technique" and "regular part of the curriculum."  What is the
difference?  I, too, think that imitatio could have a valuable role in our curr
icula; it makes good sense based on what we know about schema theory AND
based on what we know about topoi and invention as a whole.

Elizabeth Vander Lei
Assistant Director of First Year Composition
Arizona State University
IDEAV@ASUACAD
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Date:         Tue, 6 Oct 1992 15:22:00 CDT
From:         Tamra Mabe <YKFTM@TTACS.BITNET>
Subject:      re-jazz

d", I will always prefer Hagar's "I Can't Drive 55" when tooling down the road.
Vivaldi would put me to sleep and Marsalis just doesn't get the ole heart goin'
like that driving beat.  Any takers?

Tamra Mabe YKFTM@TTACS.BITNET
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Date:         Mon, 5 Oct 1992 08:56:47 -0600
From:         RONRON@USU.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Re:Imitatio and Leeches

Lili  - I have a slightly used kairos meter you can have cheap.  Problem
is, it's not digital.  I also have a nearly new stasis generator that
is a beauty.  Ron Shook
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Date:         Fri, 2 Oct 1992 09:02:44 EDT
From:         mer <MROSE01@UKCC.UKY.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Basic writing, again and again

Dave:

              I think it was Steele who said that anyone wishing to
              write well should study Addison night and day,
              Remington Steele.
                                                      mer
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Date:         Tue, 6 Oct 1992 08:41:44 EDT
From:         smh@AAL.ITD.UMICH.EDU
Subject:      Writing Program Size

Lisa,
Here at Michigan the practica for the students who need more intensive
instruction are capped out at 16, and the semester-long intro.
comp courses have 22 students.  To my knowledge there are no size
limits on the junior/senior writing-intensive courses, but to meet
the requirements for that program the instructor must show that there
will be ample writing instruction and opportunity to revise; those
proposals are reviewed on a course-by-course basis.

Susanmarie Harrington
University of Michigan
English Composition Board
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