HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ke4zv!gary@gatech.edu (Gary Coffman)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Misc ramblings was(Re: Norwegian Krag Question)
Date: 12 Nov 92 14:57:15 GMT
Organization: Gannett Technologies Group

In article <ATAYLOR.92Nov10144127@gauss.nmsu.edu> ataylor@nmsu.edu (Nosy) writes:
#	So; do any of these 6.5 Swede Krag-Jorgenson rifles
#	still exist? Are they collectors items, or "shootable"
#	or something in between?

The local toy store has about a dozen of them on the rack
for about $200 each. They also had some beautiful FN 8mm 
semi-autos, armory refurbished, with new military stocks 
for $245. I was sorely tempted. They also had piles of Haikem 
8mm semis for dirt cheap prices, only dropped once. :-)

The SKS's seem to have dried up temporarily, but they still 
had two at $109. I bought one of them as Clinton insurance. 
I also picked up my .22LR conversion for the AR15, fondled a 
BAR, and gawked at a RPG7. The neatest package they had was
a pristine FN-FAL selective fire with a starlight scope for
$2400 plus transfer tax. That's what I want for Christmas. :-)

Gary
From: scylax!tiglath@uunet.UU.NET
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: AMT .380, Colt Mustang, or other?
Date: 14 Nov 92 02:57:50 GMT
Organization: ScylaxCorp


someone@mimsy.umd.edu writes:

#I'm not saying the Glock is bad, but it is single action: the gun
#cannot be cocked using the trigger.   

If you must categorize guns into single action or double action,
the day will come soon when you will not be able to do so.  Glock is 
a step in that direction, with their action described as "safe action."

However, the Glock trigger cocks the gun every time, read the manual.  
When you pull the slide back the firing
pin (it has no hammer) is half cocked.  When you pull the trigger
to the first pressure point (travel 0.2 in.), the firing pin is 
put in full tension, or "fully cocked".  Pulling the trigger past
that fires the weapon.  

If the choice is between single and double action, by your definition, 
the Glock is a double action pistol.
From: howardjg@nextwork.rose-hulman.edu (John G Howard)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Chinese steel-core 7.62x39? Re: Armor Piercing rounds
Date: 6 Nov 92 20:01:23 GMT
Article-I.D.: master.1debnjINNmup
Organization: Computer Science Department at Rose-Hulman

In article <1992Nov5.210213.6286@michael.apple.com> ems@michael.apple.com  
(E. Michael Smith) writes:
# In article <9211041731.aa29095@claudius.pica.army.mil>  
erudnick@pica.army.mil (FSAC-SID) writes:
# 
# #This is moot, however. The intent was to ban something; one is enough  
for
# #that. There was even a scare about the cheap steel-core Chinese 7.62x39
# #being banned when a pistol in that chambering came out.
# 
# The local gun store sells Chinese 7.62x39 by the large crate (two zinc
# cans inside).  How do I know if it is, or isn't, steel-core?  Is it 
# all steel core?  (and here I thought it would all be plain lead core
# unless clearly marked ...) 
# 
# -- 
# 
# E. Michael Smith  ems@apple.COM


	Mr. Smith,
		I have shot lots of this exact round and they were ALL  
STEEL CENTERED ROUNDS!!!

		Proof of this was the richochet that came back off a 2"  
thick steel plate (75 yards away) and hit a person standing 20 yards  
behind me with LOTS of force- fortunately for his heavy coat he only got a  
bruise.  The total distance is of course 170 yards!!!  The piece we picked  
up was the bullet and it was steel!!  

		We won't be using SKS' at our club shooting days anymore.
	
		Hope this helps!!


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
	LaTer DaZe,
		JGH
		John G. Howard
		NeXT E-Mail:
			howardjg@nextwork.rose-hulman.edu
		Student of Mechanical (Aerospace) Engineering at
		Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology
		Terre Haute,IN
From: Eddie.Berin@EBay.Sun.COM (Eddie Berin SE/Sun Microsystems Federal)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Fine job
Date: 13 Nov 92 04:11:21 GMT



Dr. Purtilo:

[deleted mass quantities of complaints by Mr. Klausner]

Given your examples of trash that is routed to rec.guns,
I feel you are doing a fine job.  

I don't have a problem with your moderation of rec.guns.

If Mr. Klausner has a problem with rec.guns in moderated 
form, I suggest he create rec.guns.unmoderated.  He isn't
being forced to read rec.guns, so his complaints are unwarranted.

Good luck,

Eddie
From: bhv@boilerbob.corp.mot.com (Bronis Vidugiris)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Armor Piercing rounds
Date: 6 Nov 92 21:44:12 GMT
Organization: Motorola, CCR&D, CORP, Schaumburg, IL

In article <9211041731.aa29093@claudius.pica.army.mil> erudnick@pica.army.mil (FSAC-SID) writes:

)The German 7.9mm Panzerbuchse 39 was an excessively elaborate antitank
)rifle firing a cartridge developed from a necked-down variation of the
)Tank-Gewhr of 1918. Service ammunition was tungsten cored, and incorporated
)a tiny tear gas pellet the presence of which was detected only after
)captured ammunition was examined.
)
)The Polish Wz.35 antitank rifle used a similar bullet, but in a case
)that resembled the standard 7.9mmx57 rifle case stretched out to 108mm.
)Service ammunition was tungsten cored, but a ball training round was
)also made. The Germans captured quantities of these Polish rifles and
)produced ammunition for them as well. They were mainly used by Italian
)units.
)
)Antitank rifles were considered a viable means of stopping armored
)vehicles before the Second World War. As the war progressed and armor
)got thicker, they became useless against all but light armor - APCs
)and armored cars. The German PzB 39 resembled an artillery piece, with
)a semiautomatic sliding wedge breech, while the Polish Wz.35 and the
)Tank-Gewehr looked like overgrown Mausers, which indeed they were.

My reference (only 1 page on the 38/39) doesn't go into anywhere near as much
detail, or the relevant history (thanks for the info!).  It does claim,
however, that only the PB38 had the elaborate semiautomatic breech - the PB39
had 'a sliding breech operated by the pistol grip' rather than a
semiautomatic one,  to make it simpler and less expensive to produce.
From: preston%sware.UUCP@mathcs.emory.edu (preston)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: rec.guns digest SPECIAL EDITION
Date: 13 Nov 92 14:21:24 GMT


options I see available to us are...

x- remain as is.
	This is my choice.


-- discover or elect a new moderator.
-- un-moderate the group, as Mr. Klausner has requested.
-- suggest that an alt group be created, splitting us into moderated
and unmoderated forums.


	Thanks for the job you are doing.  Hell, just reading rec.guns is
a time sink, moderating it has to be worse.

-Preston
From: spm2d@chestnut.cs.Virginia.EDU
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: rec.guns status
Date: 13 Nov 92 04:11:02 GMT

Dr. Purtilo,

I have only been reading rec.guns for the past week or so, mainly
because I want to purchase arms before Clinton gets elected. In
the process, I have found the discussion in this group to be
wonderful.

There aren't any discussions about the ethics of gun control; this
belongs in talk.politics.guns. This group is for people who know about
guns and want to discuss them and for new people who want to learn
about them. Not for gun-banners.

If this group became unmoderated, I feel that this group would very
quickly degenerate into a worthless entity mirroring t.p.g. 

As far as the moderator quality, you are doing a great job. You do a
good job keeping non-technical discussion to a minimum, and I do
not find your comments 'evil' like Mr. Klausner.

He's alone in his feelings. And he is wrong. Don't quit because of
this bozo.

Steve Miale

[PS: It sounds like Mr. Klausner is an anti-gun advocate who wants
to plaster r.g with propaganda...]
From: cr@phy.duke.edu (Cyrus Rahman)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: LONG, rec.guns discussion
Date: 13 Nov 92 04:11:25 GMT

In article <62013@mimsy.umd.edu> you ask how you are doing.

I personally am happy with your work.  I would like you to reduce the volume
a bit more if you could, but I realize that's extra work.

What makes moderation valuable is the work of the moderator.  You must
realize that any sufficiently large cross section of people will contain
some subset of people which will violently disagree with any identifiable
opinion or perspective, but this does not mean a moderator's work is
without value.  I think it indicates instead a failure of scale of the
social structures that usually make work such as yours enjoyable within
smaller communities.

In the end groups such as this one usually perish, victims of the abuse
the moderators receive and increasing noise, both products of the too
large readership and the lack of isolation of the moderators.

You can either reduce the readership (e.g. by becoming a mailing list), or
increase the censorship (and why not?  It's your forum, and the only reason
most of us choose to read it is because of your application of choice),
or keep up the work until things break down in some other way.  All these
choices are fine with me - after all, you're the one doing the work.
Nothing lasts forever, and we enjoy what you contribute to the network while
you do.

Cyrus Rahman
From: megatek!hollen@uunet.UU.NET (Dion Hollenbeck)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Laser Sights - The State of the Art
Date: 11 Nov 92 20:52:00 GMT
Organization: Megatek Corporation, San Diego, California

#>>>> On 11 Nov 92 01:16:25 GMT, glock@chip.cba.ufl.edu (Joe Granto) said:

 (Paul Yoshimune) writes:
	[  would like laser activated by trigger press  ]

Joe> Actually, this exists right now.  It is very hard to find
Joe> information on; the gun store I talked to said it was
Joe> police/military only, but that was 2 years or so ago.  The models
Joe> of guns this was available on was very limited.  They were
Joe> activated by a sensor pad located on the front of the grip, I
Joe> believe.  If anyone has any better info, I would be interested in
Joe> it.

Actually, these are the majority of the ones I have seen.  The laser
body including batteries is about 5/8" diameter and 1.5" to 2" long.
Coming out of the back of it is a wire about 2" lone with a small
pressure pad.  It is typically stuck on the grip on the side so that
it can be depressed by the thumb.  Paul's idea sounds great, but until
it becomes reality, this is very close in functionality, no reaching
anywhere to turn it on, squeeze the grip and it works.


-- 
Dion Hollenbeck       UUCP: {uunet, ucsd, sun}!megatek!hollen
                      INTERNET:            hollen@megatek.com
Megatek Corporation  9645 Scranton Rd.  San Diego, Ca.  92121
From: btm@well.sf.ca.us (Brian Millin)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: What 686 did I get?!
Date: 10 Nov 92 15:05:42 GMT
Organization: Whole Earth 'Lectronic Link

IN article <1992Nov9.201617.25951@socrates.umd.edu> ice@socrates.umd.edu (Fredrik Nyman) writes:
#A few weeks ago I was gun-shopping.  I ended up looking at a S&W 686
#(.357, L frame, 6" barrel, stainless).  I rather liked it, but since
#I preferred a blue gun, I asked the shop owner if they happened to
#have the very same gun in blue.
#
#TEXT DELETED>
#I always thought that the difference between 586 and 686 was that
#586=blue, S&W = stainless, so why did I get a blue 686?
#
#Thanks for any explanations,
#
#Fredrik
#
I believe that it was 1989 when S&W offered a "Midnight Black" 686, or
something like that. It is a black phosphate finish, and if I recall they
had a red ramp front, white outline rear sight & a round butt. Does
the finish look like it is bead-blasted - kind of a matte finish? If it
says 686, it is stainless underneath no matter what. Congratulations - 
that is a relatively rare model.

Brian Millin
From: wes@hpbslg.boi.hp.com (Wes Nielson)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: LONG, rec.guns discussion
Date: 13 Nov 92 16:54:04 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard / Boise, Idaho

To rec.guns moderator:

You are doing a fine job. Let's keep things like they currently are.

Wes Nielson
wes@hpdmd48.boi.hp.com
From: erudnick@pica.army.mil (FSAC-SID)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Adjusting sights on HBAR and Rem. 870 barrel needed.
Date: 10 Nov 92 03:16:33 GMT


Rich Cower writes:
#I need to drop my front sight down on my Colt HBAR. Is there a tool for
#designed for this? What do other do?

There is a tool for this, but a cartridge will do just fine. Just press
the tip of the bullet against the detent until it is clear of the notch
in the sight. Then rotate the sight until the detent engages the next
notch. Repeat as needed. It's not as slow as it sounds :)

Ed Rudnicki     erudnick@pica.army.mil     All disclaimers apply
Protect the Second Amendment - boycott Ruger products
Geordi: "...it's like the laws of physics went right out the
window." Q: "And why shouldn't they? They're so inconvenient."
From: micjrs@mica.mic.ki.se (Richard Soderberg, MD)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Eye injuries from telescopic sights
Date: 13 Nov 92 14:21:17 GMT
Organization: The Karolinska Institute, Sweden


About a year ago an unfortunate hunter in Sweden had a malfunction in his
12/70 .308 combination gun causing it to discharge both barrels
simoultaneously.
The telescopic sight actually smashed his right eye to the extent that it
had
to be removed. I myself have had the eyepiece rim of the tube of my
9.3x64 rifle
hit my eyebrow several times causing cuts and bleeding. Since i work with
medical 
informatics I have tried to locate case reports of similar accidents but
havent
come up with *anything* concerning serious injuries from gun recoils.
Have any
of you netters:
1. Had such (serious) accidents?
2. Heard about any ?
or (best)
3. Seen anything published about them?
TIA
/RS
From: upchrch!joel@peora.sdc.ccur.com (Joel Upchurch  )
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Laser Sights - The State of the Art
Date: 9 Nov 92 23:47:50 GMT
Organization: Upchurch Computer Consulting, Orlando FL

pauly@netcom.com (Paul Yoshimune) writes:

# Actually, it would be nice if they could get the laser into a cylinder narrow
# enough to double as the recoil spring guide rod.  That way, the laser would a
# nothing at all to the dimensions of the gun, and the triggering mechanism 
# could be similar to those used on cameras: when the trigger is depressed part
# way, the beam would be activated...

I thought about using a trigger mechanism like you describe. The problem
is that it violates a basic rule of gun safety by forcing you to put
your finger on the trigger before you are ready to shoot.

The idea about the guide rod is interesting. I don't think the lasers
today are small enough to be put inside the guide rod, but as I recall
they are pretty small. Most of the bulk is in the battery. I recall one
add-on laser that mounted on the front of the trigger and the battery
was inside the grip. The laser itself didn't look much larger than
three or four nickels stacked together.

If we extended the frame slightly or shortened the guide rod, we could
put a screw in laser mount in front of the guide rod, then store the
battery elsewhere in the frame.

(If your mail bounces use the address below.)
Joel Upchurch/Upchurch Computer Consulting/718 Galsworthy/Orlando, FL 32809
joel@peora.ccur.com {uiucuxc,hoptoad,petsd,ucf-cs}!peora!joel (407) 859-0982
From: holger@vmars.tuwien.ac.at (Holger Reusch (Dipl. Gerhard + Joe))
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Firing w/o chambered shell (was: Psychology in Defense)
Date: 9 Nov 92 14:27:26 GMT
Organization: Technical University Vienna, Dept. for Realtime Systems, AUSTRIA

efk00@cd.amdahl.com (Eddie Kieger) writes, among other things:
#BTW, my standard method of storing my shotgun (9 shot pump) is with 
#safety OFF and an EMPTY (already fired) round in the chamber to make 
#cycling the slide possible without hitting that stupid little 
#pump-release on the reciever. I think it is the safest way to go. 

Is anything wrong with firing the gun w/o a chambered shell?  Ru-
mor has it that the firing pin crystallizes and might be prone to
break.  Is there any truth in this?  I found no mention  of  this
in the user's manual packed with the shotgun.

I prefer the following method:
1)  I load normal ammo in the shotgun, i.e. no spent shells.
2)  I rack the slide back (but not forth again).
3)  I drop the shotshell lying on the receiver [term?] though the
    ejection port by rotating the gun full circle.
4)  I make sure that no shotshell is inside the  receiver/chamber
    system.
5)  I rack the slide back forth.
6)  Then, I release the slide by pulling the trigger. (That's the
    part where I'm not yet sure if it might be detrimental to the
    shotgun.)
7)  And, finally, I re-insert  the  dropped  shotshell  into  the
    magazine.

Since this is always done in preperation w/o any stress, I  don't
have  a  problem  with  the  slightly tricky part of dropping the
shell.

-- 
| Holger Reusch                             |
| Technical University of Vienna, Austria <-+--- No kangaroos here,
| Dept. for Real-Time Systems               |    sorry!
| holger@vmars.tuwien.ac.at                 |
From: scot@hpfcla.fc.hp.com (Scot Heath)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Hammer Hooks on 101
Date: 12 Nov 92 20:22:53 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Fort Collins Site

Any Winchester/Classic Doubles 101 experts out there?  I had a gun come in
to my shop the other day who's owner claims will not fire the bottom barrel
first reliably.  Took the stock off and low and behold there were "hooks"
attached to each hammer which are free to pivot up and down and do not
allow the gun to fire when rotated in the up position:


                      _________
                     |         | ______________
                     |         | \   O        |
                     |         |  |     _     |
                     |   ______|__|____| \    |
                     |   O________________\   |
                     |         |  |  SEAR     |
                     | HAMMER  |  |___________|
                     |         |


This is a really crude drawing of a side view of the arrangement with the
gun in the normal firing position.  All I can think of is that the hooks
are there to keep the gun from firing should the trigger be pulled with the
gun in an over the shoulder position, top of the receiver resting on the
shoulder, trigger guard sticking up in the air.

I have worked in 101's before and have never seen this arrangement but this
was a new ( less than 4 years old) gun and was specifically a light field
model.  I have typically worked on trap guns in the past.

I believe the problem is that the pivot for the hook is so sloppy that it
is allowed to swing out into the wood of the stock surrounding the
receiver.  When the gun is opened, this allows the sharp point of the hook
to gouge into the wood as the hammer is cocked.

Can anyone confirm/contradict the function of these hooks?  Anyone know how
long they have been making guns like this?  Anyone else have trouble?

-Scot
From: hollombe@polymath.tti.com (The Polymath)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: 9mm Loads
Date: 6 Nov 92 20:00:31 GMT
Article-I.D.: ttinews.1992Nov6.164600.27011
Organization: The Cat Factory

In article <9211031339.AA14523@mimsy.cs.UMD.EDU> C08926RC@WUVMD.Wustl.Edu (Rob) writes:

}Now for the question:  I live in a manufactured home (ok, it's a
}mobile home, although officially they're no longer called that).
}Needless to say, I'm concerned about over-penetration.  Which 9mm
}round would you recommend?  I like the Black Talon but am unsure
}about how far it'll penetrate.  Should I use Glasers?

My strategy is to put five or six Glasers at the top of the magazine I
keep in my SIG.  The rest, and all the spare mags, are COR-BON 115 gr.
JHP +p.

Rationale:

I live in a fairly typical suburban neighborhood with wood frame & drywall
houses and maybe 20 - 25 feet between me and my nearest neighbors.  The
Glasers are for their sake, but if they don't do the job I can quickly
switch to more serious medicine. (There's also the GP100 with Glasers and
Federal JHP in speed loaders).

If my neighbors weren't so close, I'd skip the Glasers and use the JHP
exclusively.  Your mileage may vary.

The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe, M.A., CDP, aka: hollombe@polymath.tti.com)
Head Robot Wrangler at Citicorp
3100 Ocean Park Blvd.   (310) 450-9111, x2483
Santa Monica, CA  90405
From: reidld@ecf.toronto.edu (Lloyd D Reid)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Chinese 7.62 x39 Rounds
Date: 13 Nov 92 12:29:43 GMT
Organization: University of Toronto, Engineering Computing Facility

In article <9211130221.AA190954@nike.calpoly.edu> ehorne@zeus.calpoly.edu (Eric T Horne) writes:
#In article <1992Nov11.004618.12042@bbxrbk> bbx!bbxrbk!russ@unmvax.cs.unm.edu (Russ Kepler) writes:
###attracted to a magnet.  Head stamp 9121 over 73. Claimed non-corrosive.
##                                                  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
##.....
#
#Ive asked this before, but got no response.. 
#
#What exactly is the difference between corrosive and non-corrosive ammo?
#And why would someone use one over the other?
#
#Thanks
#-Eric


Corrosive ammo uses primers (usually potassium chlorate based) that leave
a hygroscopic (absorbs water) salt residue in the barrel.  If not
cleaned 'soon' after use, expect your bore, gas piston, etc. to rust.
Noncorrosive primers use lead styphnate, and do not require that the
gun be cleaned after every use.

If you enjoy cleaning your guns as much as I do :-), you can understand
why the older corrosive military ammo does not command as high a price.

There is however one advantage to corrosive primers.  Apparently they are
more stable in storage (ie, fewer duds due to aging effects).
If you were to go out Real Soon Now, and buy a big batch of (cheap)
corrosive ammo, the least you could do is give it a decent burial......


- Daniel Chisholm  (posting from prof's acct.)
-- 
reidld@ecf.toronto.edu (Peter Grant)
reidld@ecf.toronto.edu (Peter Grant)
From: gwyn@smoke.brl.mil (Doug Gwyn)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Bad tactical position
Date: 12 Nov 92 20:24:50 GMT
Organization: U.S. Army Ballistic Research Lab, APG MD.


In article <74182@hydra.gatech.EDU> gt4458c@prism.gatech.edu (John Stephens Cronin) writes:
#...  It is not an easy problem, and I am not saying I have
#the answer but I am saying that if you are going to shoot somebody you
#probably ought to have a real reason.

It's probably worth reminding everybody that in most jurisdictions,
use of deadly force is justified only when one has good reason to
believe he is in imminent danger of losing his life to, or being
severely injured by, an assailant.  Shooting simply because you
want to get rid of someone is not acceptable!
From: schuette@roadkill.nrl.navy.mil (Larry Schuette)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: cartridge casting
Date: 10 Nov 92 15:06:50 GMT

hi,

	I've been having trouble with my wildcat.  It's a .30-.348
and I've decided that I need to make a casting of the chamber.  
This, because I'm convinced that it is not a standard (ie, Ackley)
wildcat.  I really want to get a better feel for the cartridge
length.  The brass I was given varies in length by as much as .1"(!!)

Brownell sells casting metal that is specifically made to have
low melting point and consistent shrinkage.  Anybody outthere 
made a casting of a chamber?  I'd like to here any horror/success
stories before I do this.  Anybody think of a better way to get
the correct casing length?  (I did statistics on cartridge lengths,
but was not satisfied with the answer).


larry 
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
	"He who wants to protect everything, protects nothing" -- Galland

Lawrence C. Schuette			  schuette@roadkill.nrl.navy.mil
Code 7133				  (202)767-2739  
Naval Research Laboratory		  (202)767-5561 (fax) 	
Washington D.C.	20375-5320
From: smpod@venus.lerc.nasa.gov (Stefan)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Barrel break-in
Date: 6 Nov 92 01:57:35 GMT
Organization: who knows

(Brian W. Gamble) writes...
#The JB Paste can be had from Brownells [name and adress are of course in
#our FAQ :-( ]. Ed's Red I have had no luck finding. Perhaps the original
#poster could cough up some more details?


Ed's Red is a commercial test bore cleaner that is a slight modification
of Ed Harris recipe.  If anyone is interested in Ed's original recipe,
let me know and I'll post it.