HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: yschin@ccu.umanitoba.ca (Yu-Shin Chin)
Subject: Re: Trek 6000  - chain suck - Suntour XC-LTD
Organization: University of Manitoba, Canada
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1993 01:55:43 GMT

|> 
|> The most frequent culprit for chain drops is a bad chain line.  Check
|> to see if your chain line is okay.  A bad chain line maybe due to the
|> crank not being torqued down tight enough.  Another reason maybe a
|> misaligned frame.  Assuming that your XC-ltd components came standard
|> on your bike, you should definitely see if your chainwheels are too far
|> outboard relative to the rear cogs.  Suntour XC-ltd components are not
|> to blame for chain drops.  Shimano, campy, and whatever are just as likely
|> to drop chains on a misaligned drive train.
|> 
|> An insurance against dropping chain is to attach a Third Eye Chain Watcher.
|> Costs around $8 in bike stores.


I'm not concerned with the chain falling off the inner chainring.  It happens sometimes on my bike equipped with Shimano dx, but when it does, the chain was never suckup up between the stays and chainrings. However, on the Suntour equipped Trek, the chain was automatically sucked up once it fell off the inner ring.  I think it is because there is sufficient space underneath the inner chain ring to allow the chain to fall underneath it, and onto the axle.  The chain is then caught by the lower teeth of the 


rings and forced up past the chain-stay.

I was just wondering if anybody out there had similiar experience with Trek 6000 equipped with XC-LTD.  


We also tried one of tried using a gadget which was supposed to prevent the chain from falling off, but it never worked.
From: camerons@NAD.3Com.COM (Cameron Spitzer)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Potato power!, was Re: The Future of the Bike
Date: 26 Jan 93 21:22:03 GMT
Reply-To: cls@truffula.sj.ca.us


In article IfN3UtC00iUz04j4Fr@andrew.cmu.edu, hb10+@andrew.cmu.edu (Howard M. Bomze) writes:
>    Instead of a great battery for your bike lights how about a wind
>powered generator to run the lights, computer, other low power electric
>stuff.  It could charge a battery so that every thing would still work
>when you stopped moving.


This could work with a lead-acid battery (gel or not).  NiCds (which are
lighter for the same capacity) wear out prematurely if charged faster or
longer than they were designed for.   They also lose capacity when you
routinely "top them off," though this is a minor effect compared to the
first two.  I think you'd be disappointed with the lifetime and capacity
of a NiCd battery (for headlamp) charged off a bicycle-mounted generator
unless it had some elaborate electronics in it.  I don't think you'd be
too pleased with the drag of a 10 watt generator either!

The typical bike-computer has a single-chip CMOS microcomputer with LCD
display.  The drain of such a beast is such that you could run it off a
little slice of potato with zinc and copper wires stuck in.  The battery
problem there should be shelf life, not capacity.  Does your bike-computer
eat batteries?  (How about it, bike computer vendors?  Where's that potato
power option?)

Cameron
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
From: P.Etheridge@massey.ac.nz (Phil Etheridge)
Subject: Re: WD-40 To Clean Chains???
Followup-To: rec.bicycles.tech
Organization: SMIS, Massey University
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 93 03:04:18 GMT

tthiel@cs.uiuc.edu (Terry Thiel) wrote:

> eisele@hplvec.LVLD.HP.COM (Jon Eisele) writes:
> [...] WD-40 won't last long (especially if it rains).
> 
> What's wrong with Tri-flow?  Isn't it just as easy to use?  It's certainly
> more effective.

I found Tri-flow didn't last well in wet and or muddy (i.e. off-road)
conditions.  I use Pedros now.  Off road motorcycle chain lube is easily
the most effective and durable, but I found it too hard to clean the chain.
 When I used to ride off road motorcycles, I never cleaned the chain, apart
from with a hose.  Then I just applied more lube.  This practice would
probably impede shifting too much and wear sprockets too quickly to make it
practical for bicycles.

--
Phil Etheridge               P.Etheridge@massey.ac.nz
Macintosh Consultant         Phone: +64+6-356-9099 x8689
SMIS, Massey University      Fax:   +64+6-350-5611
Palmerston North, NZ         40*23'S 175*37'E,    GMT+13
From: ehouse@Apple.COM (Eric House)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Demise of wool winter jerseys?
Keywords: wool
Date: 25 Jan 93 17:51:50 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Apple Computer Inc, Cupertino, CA

In article <1993Jan25.050228.14695@ecsvax.uncecs.edu> mvolo@ecsvax.uncecs.edu (Michael R. Volow) writes:
>
>Is the wool winter jersey dead. Here, in the home of Performance, they
>had a few long sleeve winter jerseys, but in dark colors. Not too
>visible or attractive. When I called Nashbar, Colorado Cyclis, and
>Excel, they didn't have any either. It seem like everybody is into
>high tech fabrics. But I sure would like to get a light colored, long
>sleeve wool jersey. Anyone know where?

Both the current Bridgestone catalog and a conversation I had a few months
back with their product manager suggest that Bridgestone will have them
available sometime this winter.  You might check with your local dealer.
-- 
****************************************************************************
Eric House			"My employer doesn't share its opinions with
RAAM in '93?		   	 me, so I can share only mine with you"
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
From: Ullrich_Fischer@mindlink.bc.ca (Ullrich Fischer)
Subject: take a seat, get a grip
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 15:38:31 GMT

Take a seat and Get a grip

Even for experience bicycle commuters such as me, (I've been cycling daily to
school and/or work since 1957) modern nose-between-the-nuts bicycle seats are
uncomfortable with or without a few millimeters of gel where it doesn't do
much good.

I've discovered by trial and error another solution to the bike seat problem.

The black packing foam used to pack a lot of computer parts these days can
be attached to a regular bike seat by a bungee cord to form a seat which is
almost as comfortable as a car seat, though not nearly as visually appealing.

It has the added advantage of making your brand new bicycle look like a piece
of junk and hence less tempting for thieves.

I've adopted a similar solution to the problem of numbness in the hands
from leaning on the handlebars over rough roads for too long.  A pair of
smaller chunks of packing foam stuffed in a pair of old socks and pulled over
the bike's woefully inadequate handlegrip padding works wonders.  It makes
manipulating the brake levers a bit of a challenge, but actually ends up
strengthening your grip.

This also has the added advantage of making your brand new bicycle look like
a piece of junk and hence less tempting for thieves.

--
Ullrich_Fischer@mindlink.bc.ca     If God had meant us to be religious
fundamentalists, He wouldn`t have given us brains.  "What makes a person so
poisonous righteous, that he thinks less of anyone who just disagrees?" -
Moxy Fruvous
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
From: P.Etheridge@massey.ac.nz (Phil Etheridge)
Subject: Re: Mathematics of gears and why 24-36-46 is bad
Followup-To: rec.bicycles.tech
Organization: SMIS, Massey University
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 93 03:24:02 GMT

v206gb6c@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (PauL M SchwartZ) wrote:
 
> haverl@cats.ucsc.edu (Carl A Haverl) writes...

[...]

> >The solution?  Going back to 26-36-46 solved my problems.  Since
> >gcd(26,36)=2, I have 26/2=13 different shift positions off the small
> >ring so one of them is bound to line up well.  Also, gcd(36,46)=2
> >so there are 36/2=18 different shift positions off the middle ring to
> >the larger ring.
> 
>     I can't support this logic.  I've been riding 24-36-46 for more that 3
> years on multiple bikes and have never had this problem.  Are you sure your
> chain is not streched out?  I just tried 20 24->36 shifts on the 2 bikes I
> have with this combo (one XT-RFP and one top-mount DX) and neither failed 
> to shift onto one of the first 3 teeth to come by.

Similarly, while the theory seems plausible, I've had no trouble with
24-36-46 in practice either.  I was having trouble with my STI front
shifter (I HATE it, but am neutral wrt STI rear shifters) on the
granny-middle change until I adjusted the low limit screw and cable slack. 
With those correct, the shifts are flawless (in as far as STI can be.)

--
Phil Etheridge               P.Etheridge@massey.ac.nz
Macintosh Consultant         Phone: +64+6-356-9099 x8689
SMIS, Massey University      Fax:   +64+6-350-5611
Palmerston North, NZ         40*23'S 175*37'E,    GMT+13
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
From: paynter@bnr.ca (Stuart Paynter)
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire to RF Plus upgrade??? (help)
Reply-To: paynter@bnr.ca (Stuart Paynter)
Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd.
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 93 12:51:32 GMT

In article <1jkejfINNloq@aurora.engr.LaTech.edu>, jkc@engr.latech.edu (John K. Chatten) writes:
|> Rapid fire plus is available in more than just XT and XTR for 1993. 
|>  Shimano offers rapid fire plus in Exage, LX, DX, XT, and XTR.  
|> All of these are compatable with the older Deore LX grouppo, 
|> except XTR, because it is an eight speed shifter with slightly
|>  smaller cog spacing.  The problem with buying Rapid Fire Plus
|>  shifters is expense.  You have to buy the whole assembly(brake
|>  lever and shifter combination).
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This is not true.  You can buy the shifters and brake levers separately,
but I have never seen them separate as an OEM item.  The shifters are
~$30 each (the last time I saw them in NH).


|> Besides convenient shifter 
|> position, the rapid fire plus shifters are less prone to jamming
|>  due to dirt and mud, except for the exage shifter, which has
|>  little in the way of dirt protection for the racheting mechanism.
|>   It should not be a big hassle for you to change shifters. 
|>  Simply remove the grips and old shifter and install the new 
|> shifter.  The shifters will come with tuning instructions, 
|> if you have trouble consult a mechanic.  
|> I also recommend lubrication or replacing shift cables
|> depending upon cable condition.
|> 
|> 
|> 
|> 
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
From: junger@rsg1.er.usgs.gov (John Unger)
Subject: Re: XC-PRO shifting. Suggestions sought.
Organization: U.S. Geological Survey, Reston VA
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 15:47:45 GMT

In article <1993Jan22.202109.28433@colorado.edu> doug@shako.Colorado.EDU (Doug McKnight) writes:
>
>
>Specifically the "best" adjustment of the cable barrel adjuster still
>makes shifting into the smallest two cogs slow and sometimes even incomplete,
>the chain slips in a half-shifted position. Shifting into the largest two
>cogs is also slow and occasionally incomplete (requiring overshifting).
>
>
> other stuff deleted..
>
>
> 

The slow shifting into your two smallest cogs might be due to excess
friction in the cable system.  You can check that by taking off the
rear wheel while your bike is in a stand, putting the shifter into
friction mode, and seeing if the movement of the derailleur follows
the movement of the lever without any hesitation.

On the other hand, I have the same shifters on my mtb and get flawless
shifting with a Sedis ATB chain, so give that a try, too.

cheers -- John Unger
From: chris@carnival.lbl.gov (Chris Moll)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Selle Italia Flite saddle
Keywords: n
Date: 26 Jan 93 16:01:07 GMT
Article-I.D.: overload.1k3n83INNa2k
Organization: Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory, California
NNTP-Posting-Host: carnival.lbl.gov

Jobst Brandt writes:
>The principal savings
>in weight is that it has no cheeks.  The cheeks of a saddle are not
>there as a styling whim but serve a purpose during various bicycling
>maneuvers. 

I found the Flite to be too soft, which caused me saddle sores, and I kept
hearing comments about poor durability.  (Plus I'm opposed to Ti for
philosophical reasons - perhaps an unfortunate association between the
metal and wankers :-) )  But I never missed the "cheeks" (nor did I notice
their return when I went back to my Concor, which is unusually "cheeky").

Brandt continues:
>When switching
>back to the regular saddle It occurred to me that I had forgotten to
>notice the difference in contrast to the Flite.  I think that is the
>true test of saddle comfort.

Perhaps I misunderstood - are you saying you didn't notice the
difference between the Flite and your regular saddle?  If so, that
is a testament in favor of the Flite, since the whole idea is that
it offers the _same_ comfort with less weight (despite its cheeklessness).
Had I found this to be so I would still have it.

--
Chris Moll                       (510)486-7891
---
A vacuum is a hell of a lot better than some of the stuff that nature
replaces it with.        -- Tenessee Williams
From: sjm3@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (SALEM JON MAZZAWY)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: EMS Fork?
Date: 27 Jan 93 19:22:16 GMT
Organization: Lehigh University

In article <C1Gwxn.DGx@srgenprp.sr.hp.com>, frankh@sr.hp.com (Frank Hamlin) writ
es:
>
>> Yes, I do have a general comment.   I saw one of these forks break earlier
>> this past year on a very smooth downhill.   Let me stress that the road was
>> very smooth.   The thing shattered and in doing so destroyed its rider.   He
>> had to be taken away in an ambulence.   Local frame builder, Peter Weigle, wa
s
>> there and said that he could not believe that happened.   He went on to say
>> that if one of his bikes every injured a person like that, he would stop
>> building.
>
>Was this near Clearlake?  I think it was the Ukiah Century where a rider
>had a stick pop up and into the front spokes on his Kestrel.  He immediately
>went over the handlebars, and shattered his front forks.  It's not clear
>that the fork failure contributed to his injurys.
>
No, it was in Bolten, CT.   No sticks, no nothing, just a pulverized rider.
                                                Salem
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
From: paul@panix.com (Paul Gatker)
Subject: Re: Locking into Time pedals
Organization: PANIX Public Access Unix, NYC
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 15:13:35 GMT

In <C17tIz.36s@cs.uiuc.edu> tthiel@cs.uiuc.edu (Terry Thiel) writes:

><FDHEIENO@UCF1VM.BITNET> writes:
>>I recently upgraded to '91 Time criterium pedals and racing shoes.  The problem
>>is locking into them!  It mabe just me but I'm having a devil of a "time"
>>getting a quick lock-in.  Any suggestions??  Oh, the cleats are the newer
>>small style.
>>Many thanks!
>>Dennis Weeks
>>dfw@physics.ucf.edu

>Spray some tri-flow on the pedal mechanism in the center and buy the new Time
>cleats for $10 or so.  The go in and out easier.  Time pedals need some
>wearing in also.

 But be aware that they get a little slippery from this procedure. Having a
foot slide off a pedal when you're pushing down with hundreds of pounds of
force is not the most pleasent experience one can derive from cycling.


-- 
*******************************************************************
paul@panix.com                                    COMPULITE GRAPHICS
Brooklyn NY usa                                Design & Consultation
********************************************************************
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
From: budn@sr.hp.com (Bud Noren)
Subject: Re: Selle Italia Flite saddle
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 20:27:06 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: HP Sonoma County (SRSD/MWTD/MID)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1.9 PL6]

RECKLESS ABANDON (fhuang@eniac.seas.upenn.edu) wrote:
: 
:    I didn't pay much attention to the discussion about the Flite a coupla
: months ago and I'm interested in purchasing a ti seat. What problems has
: anyone had with the Flite and if so, what saddle would you recommend? 

It works fine for me.  I have 10k-12k miles on one with quite a few 80+
mile rides in there.  It may help that I was already accustomed to a
Selle Italia saddle.  The Flite is similar in shape to the Turbo that
I used to use so the change wasn't too drastic.

Saddle preference is a very individual thing and you won't know for sure
if the Flight is really for you until you try it.

-Bud
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
From: tthiel@cs.uiuc.edu (Terry Thiel)
Subject: Re: LX DX XT XTR Confusion
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept. of Comp. Sci., Urbana, IL
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 14:12:56 GMT

cs92mjd@cen.ex.ac.uk (M.J.Davis) writes:
>In article <C17trw.3s3@cs.uiuc.edu> tthiel@cs.uiuc.edu (Terry Thiel) writes:
>   >Boy is this wrong.  I just received my 1993 Bridgestone MB-3 which comes
>   >with DX components.
>Wow! I never knew Terry was thinking of getting a 1993 Bridgestone MB-3 with
>DX components! Anyone hear about this before? 
>:-) :-) :-) :-)

Yeah, even I am getting sick of this!

>Sorry, Terry, couldn't resist it. btw, does anyone know of any plans to
>distribute Bridgestones here in the UK? I think you used to be able to get
>them, but I've never seen one in the metal. They look like good bikes with
>reassuringly imaginative component spec's. I'm sure a lot of people here
>would be interested.

Bridgestone is not a high-volume company and doens't appear to be interested
in becoming one.  The bikes they sell in the U.S. are desgined and spec'ed
for this market.  The bikes they sell in Japan are designed for that market.
I wouldn't expect to see them in the U.K. anytime soon.  Have you seen their
catalog? It's a good read.
-Terry
-- 
-Terry
From: neilf@delfin.com (Neil Frank)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Shimano Biopace GS (or SG) Chain rings
Date: 25 Jan 93 17:21:39 GMT
Organization: Delfin Systems
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4

I have a friend whose mountain bike is equiped with Shimano 200 GS parts and
Biopace SG chain rings.  The bike has only has approximately 200 miles on it
and it already has several broken teeth on the 38 and 28 tooth chain rings.
The broken teeth are located at the widest points of the elipse... Is this
a manufactor's defect or are these parts cheaper than the money he paided 
to begin with.....   

Thanks for any information .....

-nlf- 
-- 
Neil Frank		Delfin Systems		408-748-1200
neilf@delfin.com	Santa Clara, CA.
--              Wisdom is Gained Through Experience,            -- 
--        Experience is Gained Through Error.... "Unknown"      -- 
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
From: isdhm@acad3.alaska.edu
Subject: Re: about cantilever brakes
Organization: University of Alaska Fairbanks
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 22:22:40 GMT

In article <47460007@hpopd.pwd.hp.com>, garethb@hpopd.pwd.hp.com (Gareth Barnard) writes:
> The rear cantis on my XTR setup are shorter than the front ones. I think most
> canti sets are made this way. Im not sure why though. Maybe the rear ones need
> to be stiffer or the shortness gives increased performance at the rear.
> 
> C'ya
> 
> Roo.

Ya see if you have a shorter canti, you have less weight.  Thats why they are
shorter.  The reason for longer in front, is increased performance in the
front.  Almost every high end cantis that I have seen have plenty of power in
the rear, after all anybody can lock up a properly adjusted rear brake with 1
finger.  Front brakes give the stopping power and need the extra length,
therefore the longer cantilever.
From: maarrrk@seidel.ucsb.edu (Mark Erickson)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: The Future of the Bike
Date: 21 Jan 93 16:33:17 GMT

jbrandt@hplred.HPL.HP.COM (Jobst Brandt) writes:

>Bruce Hendler writes:


>If you step back a bit and look at the change in the bicycle in the
>last 30 or so years, I think you will not be able to see the
>difference.  On a typical road stage of the TdF you cannot see any
>substantial difference as the field rides by.  

	Don't the road race sanctioning people outlaw anything
	that looks very different for use in criterium and road
	racing?  

	Time trial bikes look _very_ different.	

	--maarrrk
From: brooksp@hpcc01.corp.hp.com (Peter Brooks)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 19:52:05 GMT
Subject: Re: Info on Rain Suit
Organization: the HP Corporate notes server
From: EPLUS17@vmd.cso.uiuc.edu (Richard Engelbrecht-Wiggans)
Subject: Re: Tri-bar safety
Organization: C.C.S.O.
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 01:12:14 GMT

In article <1993Jan24.214030.22352@leland.Stanford.EDU>
sjlt@leland.Stanford.EDU (Sean Lev-Tov) writes:
 
>In article <16B5FFD69.EPLUS17@vmd.cso.uiuc.edu> EPLUS17@vmd.cso.uiuc.edu (Richard Engelbrecht-Wiggans) writes:
>>>In article <74171@cup.portal.com>, JForester@cup.portal.com (John - Forester) writes...
>>>>                          I have since seen some tri-bars with
>>>>brake levers, but I don't know whether the bikes that carry these
>>>>also have brake levers in the normal place. If so, what is the
>>>>mechanism for linking the action?
>>
>>I have a home designed/built aero bar dating back to the
>>late 70's (yes, well before they were mass marketed.)
>
>stuff deleted
>
>>as I think I can ever handle in the aero position.  (If I
>>had to do it over again, I might link that extra lever
>>to the front rather than rear brake.)
>
>I don't think I'd use the front brake for that.  When using your
>aerobars your center of gravity is farther forward and you'd
>be more likely to flip.  I think that if you're using aero bars
>in the first place, you probably won't need super hard braking.
>Therefore I think wiring a 3rd lever to the rear brake is the
>way to go.
>
>Sean
 
I seem to have forgotten to mention the word "tandem."
 
..Richard E+17
From: mike@scimitar.cchem.berkeley.edu (C. Michael McCallum)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Selle Italia Flite saddle
Date: 26 Jan 93 17:22:01 GMT
Article-I.D.: agate.1k3rvp$m2b
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: scimitar.cchem.berkeley.edu
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]

If people are having trouble with the Flite, specifically
because it lacks the 'wings' in the central part of
the sides of the saddle (I think Jobst had something to
say about this too...), you may want to try either the
Selle San Marco Titano, or the Bontrager saddles.  They are
both very light, but they cut out shell in other places and
leave the wings, where your thighs would rub.

I bought mine uhhhh, 1000 miles ago, and it has been through
this past rain stuff w/o any wear.

--Mike
From: jbrandt@hplred.HPL.HP.COM (Jobst Brandt)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 19:42:08 GMT
Subject: Re: Shimano and SunTour freehubs
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Laboratories, Palo Alto, CA
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech

Mark Chandler writes:

> SunTour is coming out with evenly spaced cogsets.  I assume that
> they'll be changing their shift levers accordingly.

I don't believe there will be any change because looking at the
control plate in the shift lever, I see uniformly spaced holes.
I have been using SunTour New Winner Pro freewheels with both
Shimano and SunTour derailleurs with no difficulty.  The sprocket
spacing of all but the smallest sprocket is uniform anyway other
than normal tolerances on the order of less than 0.1 mm.

jobst_brandt@hplabs.hp.com
From: chris@carnival.lbl.gov (Chris Moll)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Wheel Wonderings
Date: 26 Jan 1993 16:17:09 GMT
Organization: Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory, California
NNTP-Posting-Host: carnival.lbl.gov

Arthur Tateishi writes:
>I'm 175lbs with a 53cm frame.(Should be down to 160lbs before my first
>race) Am I just looking for trouble if I go with a set of 32 hole
>clinchers and 18-20mm tires? Does anyone have any words against aero

You're probably looking for trouble if you use 18mm tires - I weigh 155lbs;
the smallest tires I'll use on a smooth course are 20mm rear, 19mm front.
If I'm the least uncertain about road conditions this increases to 
23mm/20mm.
32 spoke wheels are strong enough for you, provided you take reasonable
care of them - and they are well-built.

>Does anyone have any words against aero rims?
Aero rims without eyelets have a tendency to break nipples, especially 
alloy ones.  But they seem to have more lateral strength than a non-aero
rim of the same weight (they are _not_, however, any more ding-proof - 
hence the need for sufficiently large tires).

--
Chris Moll                       (510)486-7891
---
A vacuum is a hell of a lot better than some of the stuff that nature
replaces it with.        -- Tenessee Williams
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech