HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ag@sics.se (Anders G|ransson)
Subject: Re: Surreal Novels About WWII
Organization: GRAMMA
	<1992Nov21.130335.11134@klaava.Helsinki.FI>
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1992 14:56:37 GMT

In article <1992Nov21.130335.11134@klaava.Helsinki.FI> amnell@klaava.Helsinki.FI (Marko Amnell) writes:


   Apart from the big three American novels, _Gravity's Rainbow_, _Catch 22_
   and _Slaughterhouse Five_, there is also the French Nazi-collaborator
   doctor Louis-Ferdinand Celine's novels, _Voyage au bout de la nuit_,
   _D'un chateau l'autre_ and _Nord_.  The first book describes the 
   experiences and opinions of a truculent slum doctor during and after 
   the Great War.  The last two are set in WWII and form a pleasing
   counterpoint to the Allied wave from the American scriveners.  The plot
   revolves around a series of retreats from castle to castle by Hitler's
   Court, accompanied by French collaborators.

Perhaps it might be mentioned that a last volume; "Rigodon",
appeared seven years after the death of Dr. Destouches (Celine).
Rigodon was written in Meudon 1960-1961 and describes the last part of
the journey through Europe which ended in Copenhagen (and for
Celine ultimately in a Copenhagen prison for two years).
The whole trilogy is translated into English (and published by
Penguin).

   Celine writes in highly bizarre and logorrhoidal language, including some
   of the most inventive profanity ever concocted eg. describing Simone de 
   Beavoir as "a mummified worm" and page-long diatribes against his detractor.
   There is an English translation by John Marks (1934) of the first novel. 
   The nightmare power of Celine's vision, and profligate resourcefulness of
   his language are winning him increasing respect from the critics, despite
   his avowed anti-Semitism and general misanthropy.

Should someone be interested: there are translations into English of 
several other books by Celine. 
Mort a Credit appears as "Death on the Installment
Plan", Guignol's Band appears as "Guignol's Band". Perhaps someone
knows of other books by Celine translated into English?
I may be mistaken but my impression (gotten from admittedly
rather restricted study) is that Celine nowadays is, at least
in France, regarded as a major writer on par with e.g. Proust.
 

best regards Anders 


--


If you see Saint Annie, please tell her - Thanks a lot.
From: francis@oas.stanford.edu (Francis Muir)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: James on Morris and Morris' Missus
Date: 22 Nov 1992 17:53:49 GMT
Organization: Stanford Exploration Project
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: oas.stanford.edu

Carrying on with snippets from Stansky's *MORRIS*, here is an exerpt
from a letter by Henry James to GodKnowsWho:

	Morris read us one of his unpublished poems, from the
	second series of his un-"Earthly Paradise," and his
	wife having a bad toothache, lay on the sofa, with her
	handkerchief to her face ... this dark silent medieval
	woman with her medieval toothache.

This was Jane Burden. Less William Morris' wife than Dante's Dolly.
Dante Gabriel Rossetti, that is, who had introduced Jane to William, 
and seems to have been her lover, on and off. Off when she was flapping
around wuth that most exquisite Wilfred Scawen Blunt; the poet who,
curiously, Joe Green never told us about.

							Fido

Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,soc.history
From: uroessl1@gwdu03.gwdg.de (Uwe Roessler)
Subject: Re: Crystal Palaces
Organization: GWDG, Goettingen
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1992 18:43:50 GMT

zeleny@husc10.harvard.edu (Michael Zeleny) writes:

on Crystal Palaces

>But my question is more generally literary in nature, -- how did
>this image come to stand not just for material, but also for moral
>progress?  I can make an educated guess in the case of Dostoyevsky,
>but other, Western examples, would be greatly appreciated.

See : Walter Benjamin: 'Das Passagen - Werk' it's a huge collection
of materials on 19th century's culture. There is a central section 
on glass-architecture (the title hints at the glass covered passages).
Other sections are on utopian writers (e.g.Fourier), photography or the
fashion of panoramas etc. Benjamin wrote an expos'e "Paris - Haupt-
stadt des XIX.Jahrhunderts" which yields an idea how he wanted to
organize all this stuff in his summa. He describes Crystal Palaces
as 'dream-symbols' of industrial revolution. He mentions figures of
phantastic buildings of iron&glass by Grandville and others or 
the science-fiction-like dreams of P.Scheerbart (a german writer 
around 1890) on glass-architecture.
The expos'e mentioned is surely translated (at least in french) but
the collection of materials is probably only in german - a lot of
french citations included.(W.B.'s english was worse than mine)
Hope this helps.

u.roessler           uroessl1@gwdu03.gwdg.de
                     uroessl1@dgogwdg1.bitnet

'Lichtenberg dreht sich herum und zeigt seinen Buckel'
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: mtaranto@shearson.com (Mark Taranto)
Subject: Re: Wittgenstein, P.I.
Organization: Yale CS Mail/News Gateway
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 03:36:41 GMT


torkel@sics.se (Torkel Franzen) writes:
 
>  Wittgenstein didn't labor against metaphysics, hard or otherwise. I think
> you're really talking about Carnap...
 
 
Not just Carnap.  It is a pretty common theme in Analytical Philosophy
to beat up on metaphysics.  A. J. Ayer's tries to define away the
problems of Metaphysics in LANGUAGE, TRUTH & LOGIC.
 
Mark
From: tovah@panix.com (Tovah Hollander)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: good novels about gay lifestyle
Date: 22 Nov 92 18:44:48 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Unix, NYC


Alison Chaiken writes:
>I'd like to read one or two good books about the gay lifestyle in
>order to try to understand it.

Let me once again jump at the chance to recommend the novels of Larry
Duplechan.  In particular, BLACKBIRD and TANGLED UP IN BLUE both fit your
criteria and should be available in mainstream fiction collections
(libraries and bookstores).

-- 
Tovah Hollander
tovah@panix.com -or- tovah@onion.salad.mssm.edu
From: hoosiers@carson.u.washington.edu (Mary Loveless)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Why I am thrilled with the QPBC
Date: 23 Nov 92 20:51:40 GMT
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle

In article <1992Nov20.165901.224@grebyn.com> fi@grebyn.com (Fiona Webster)
writes: >Not to rain on the wet-noses parade here, but I'm curious to hear
>a little more about what QPB's list looks like, these days.  The >ads
offering three books for three bucks *never* have any three >books that
I'm interested in, and I do keep looking.  You see, I >used to be a big
QPB buyer between about 1980 and 1988, but the >quality of the selections
offered declined steadily during that >period, to the point where I wasn't
ever finding anything I wanted. >This may have reflected a change in my
reading habits, but I don't >think so--certainly I still read lots of
trash.  > >But I figure it this way: if I can't find even three books in
their >ad that appeal to me, then why should I re-instate my membership? >
> --I can be negative, too, :-) > > Fiona
______________________________________________________________________________
I wasn't terribly impressed either.  But that may have been the
disappointment in my first order, a book called _An Uncommon Shrew_, which
title referred to an old statute which allowed the powers that be to
arrest women who got too mouthy and uppity.  It was billed as a collection
of pithy comments by women throughout history.  I opened the book to see a
passage by Zsa Zsa Gabor or someone (how *do* you spell her name, anyway?)
making a joke about the size of her thighs.  Seemed to me I could turn on
the TV to get *that* kind of shrewishness, so I sent back the book and
cancelled my subscription.

But then I had already read _Anna Karenina_.  Who knows what I might
have done, otherwise.

Mary Loveless
_____________________________________________________________________________
My opinions are all my very own, and no other's.  Who would claim them?
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: hhenderson@vax.clarku.edu
Subject: RE: not verbose (was Re: Balls etc.)
Organization: Clark University
Date: 20 NOV 92 01:17:57 GMT

Uh-Oh, I've been sucked into Mikhail's ever-unfolding drama.  How'd that
happen?

>In article <19NOV92.13553297@vax.clarku.edu> hhenderson@vax.clarku.edu
>writes: 

HH: 
>zeleny@husc10.harvard.edu (Michael Zeleny), waving his mighty 
>Eurodick again, writes: 

MZ: 
>>Eloquence being the quintessential tertiary sexual characteristic of 
>>the male, I conclude that scantiness of tropes is a sign of smallness 
>>of genitals. 

HH: 
>Mikhail: It ain't the meat, it's the motion. 

MZ: 
>So said the would-be eunuch priest of Cythera, as he flung his 
>genitals under the feet of her procession.  Read more Catullus. 
>And remember that you don't have to settle for less. 

HH:
Less of some things is better than more.  Talk, for example.  Less talk, more
action.  Women don't want to castrate men, they just want them to shut up.

Heather
HHENDERSON@vax.clarku.edu
From: francis@oas.stanford.edu (Francis Muir)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Ate in Arcadia. Eggo.
Date: 18 Nov 1992 12:08:22 GMT
Organization: Stanford Exploration Project
NNTP-Posting-Host: oas.stanford.edu

Ted B Samsel writes:

	Then there's the old "revolutionary" maxim attributed to several,
	(Mao, Lenin, etc.)

		"To make an omelet, one must break eggs"

	Deserves an OVAtion, no?

Remove the caps and you might get a standing ovulation.

						Fido
From: yarnot@babbage.csus.edu (Jan Yarnot)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Well, Nichael??
Date: 19 Nov 92 01:55:13 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Surely you jest!

So when is the Big Unveiling, Nichael?  I didn't vote, having read your
misc.kids posts, and I'm afraid I e-mailed Mark with the gender-answer
before you made it a vote question.

ObBook:  If I'm going to be Secretary of Education, you all are going to
have to read John Holt and Jonathan Kozol.  I'm still trying to recover
from the latter's _Rachel and Her Children_.  

--
---Jan Yarnot, net.grandma.-- | A lifetime of smirking behind your hand
                              | is a lot better than a few seconds of
                              | triumph.
CSUS depends on my every word.              Kinsella, _Box Socials_
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: mtaranto@shearson.com (Mark Taranto)
Subject: Re: The Secret Agent
Organization: Yale CS Mail/News Gateway
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 19:55:19 GMT


le01167@portal.lasc.lockheed.com (Ron Nadel) writes:
 
> This could make for an interesting thread on books that trasnlated well
> to the screen.  I tend to agree with the assessment above - that the better
> the novel, the weaker the result on screen.  The exceptions I would put forth
> are:
 
> Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy (PBS)
> Smiley's People
> Crime and Punishment (PBS)
> Little Dorritt
> Godfather
> Lonesome Dove
 
> So what do you others feel were well done translations of novels?
 
The problem with GOOD books being turned into a movie, is that the books
are, often, too complex, and must be paired down to be made into a movie.
The result is that the movie will often have a very different focus from
the book.  One example where this worked is THE PRINCE OF TIDES.  I liked
both the book and the movie.  But the book was mostly the tale of the Wingo
family in South Carolina, while the movie concentrated on Tom Wingo's
relationship with his sister's psychiatrist in New York.
 
Many of the exceptions that Ron mentions were miniseries on TV.  To these,
I would add BRIDESHEAD REVISITED and LOVE FOR LYDIA.  Both were very true
to the books.
 
As for movies, I think that the two best translations to film are
A ROOM WITH A VIEW, by E. M. Forster, and STARS AND BARS by William Boyd.
The latter succeeds because it is a fairly simple (and funny) story
to begin with, and Boyd worked on the screenplay.  HOWARDS END, another
Forster book made into a movie by Merchant/Ivory is a good movie, but
had to be made much less complex than the book.
 
Mark
From: ccsdgdc@gdr.bath.ac.uk (Douglas Clark)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Tsetsaeva translations
Date: 16 Nov 92 14:53:10 GMT
Organization: Bath University Computing Services, UK


I should just say that I, personally, own the two UK-available
paperback editions of Marina Tsvetayeva's Selected Poems.
They are by David McDuff and Elaine Feinstein. Both are respected.
-- 
Douglas Clark                                  Voice : +44 225 826039
Regional Services,                       JANET : D.G.D.Clark@uk.ac.bath
Bath University Computing Services, UUCP : ...uunet!mcsun!uknet!gdr!D.G.D.Clark
Bath, Avon, England BA2 7AY    ARPA : D.G.D.Clark%bath.ac.uk@nsfnet-relay.ac.uk
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: hoosiers@carson.u.washington.edu (Mary Loveless)
Subject: Re: good novels about gay lifestyle
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 18:59:48 GMT

In article <1992Nov19.174843.21867@PacBell.COM> rjwill6@PacBell.COM (Rod Williams) writes:
>> alison@wsrcc.com (Alison Chaiken) writes:
>>I'd like to read one or two good books about the gay lifestyle in
>>order to try to understand it.  In particular I am NOT curious about
>>gay sexual practices (not a prude; just not interested).  I undertake
>>this project in the same spirit as when a few years ago I decided to
>>read several books about Islam: I want to "see how the other half
>>lives."  Recommendations for serious adult fiction are appreciated.
>
>It might help to realize that there are as many "gay
>lifestyle[s]" as there are straight ones.  Are you interested
>in rural, childless lesbians who repair farm machinery, make
>jams and jellies and like target shooting?  Or urban, skinhead,
>piereced and tattooed queers who write mash letters to black,
>female jazz singers?  Or Catholic priests who spend their days
>off bedecked in fuschia chiffon in a drag bar?  Or those nice
>boys from the flower shop?  Or that tired looking single mother
>who wishes she could afford a babysitter so that she could get
>out and seek similar?
>
>People like that, and many more, write serious adult fiction
>on the side...
>
>-- 
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>rod williams -=- pacific bell -=- san ramon, ca -=- rjwill6@pacbell.com
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------


Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: rsquires@cyclops.eece.unm.edu (Roger Squires)
Subject: Re: Neuromancer
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 92 09:35:39 GMT
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque

In article <18NOV199211035966@rigel.tamu.edu> spb0457@rigel.tamu.edu (SubGenius) writes:
>
>`Ice' in the argot of cyberpunks is computer security, visually represented
>in the virtual reality world(s) of W.G. u.s.w. as a solid wall (or whathaveyou)
>between the virtual person and the virtual whatever that person wants to get at
>

	I must say I still prefer the virtual world presented in
	Vernor Vinge's classic novella _True Names_ to Gibson's.
	The fantasy aspect is emphasized more, and the atmosphere
	of the novella is less depressing.

>
>_Count Zero_ was a bit of a disappointment, but _Mona Lisa Overdrive_ was 
>easily as impressive as _Neuromancer_, and possibly would have been considered
>even more impressive if it had been written earlier.
>

	Do you mean earlier than _N_?  Recall that _MLO_ is a 
	sequel to _N_.  There is also a volume of short stories,
	_Burning Chrome_, which has stories featuring, e.g., the
	Molly Mr. Sub. refers to, which is not bad.

	I have a list of cyberpunk books taken off alt.cyberpunk
	some time ago, if anyone wants it, or you could ask there.
	I've read one other cyberpunk novel the premise for which
	involved personality cards you could plug into your head,
	which was pretty lousy; I don't recall the title right now.
	And yes, Mr. Maddox's name *is* at the end of _N_:  Wow!

Roger Squires
rsquires@cyclops.eece.unm.edu
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: ceblair@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Charles Blair)
Subject: Re: Accuracy in autobiography (was: GENIUS: Richard Feynman)
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 15:51:45 GMT

alison@wsrcc.com (Alison Chaiken) writes:

>Lillian Hellman's memoirs _Pentimento_ and
>_An Unfinished Woman_.  I found them to be very moving when I read
>them.  Five or so years later when the movie _Julia_ came out, there
>was a great deal of publicity saying that many of the anecdotes in the
>books were untrue.  

    My impression is that most people think the Julia story is a complete
fabrication.  That Hellman never knew anyone engaged in clandestine anit-Nazi
activities,  never participated in them, and based some of the story on the
late Muriel Gardner.

   If this is the case, I think it is a very important fact about Hellman.
Similarly, if Feynman completely fabricated any of the incidents in SYBMJ
or WSYCWOPT, as distinguished from minor exaggerations, I think that is
worth knowing.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Tim Starr)
Subject: Re: Lightbulbs, et al.  [was: The Truth According to Mickie Medved]
Organization: UDel, School of Life & Health Sciences
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 08:55:24 GMT

In article <1992Nov18.004301.9865@crd.ge.com> kassover@rumsey.crd.ge.com (David Kassover) writes:
}In article <97997@netnews.upenn.edu> crawford@ben.dev.upenn.edu (Lauren L. Crawford) writes:
}>In article <lgakr7INN6ge@news.bbn.com> ncramer@labs-n.bbn.com (Nichael Cramer) writes:
}>
}>>How many Californians does it take to screw in a light bulb?
}>
}>Four.  One to screw it in, and three to share the experience.
}>
}
}And a fifth, to write the environmental impact statement.

And a sixth to file a lawsuit to delay the completion of the project for as
long as possible so that the local "advocacy journalism" free weeklies can
attack it so as to rationalize petty resentment against it and mobilize
opposition to the project by private interests claiming to represent the public
who really don't want any of this growth to turn this nice community into
another LA, which got ruined by people just like them who moved out there from
New York City to get away from the scene of their crime and consume the
capital of some other place until it runs out and they have to look for
new victims.

Tim Starr - Renaissance Now! - Think Universally, Act Selfishly
starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu

"True greatness consists in the use of a powerful understanding to enlighten
oneself and others." - Voltaire
From: francis@oas.stanford.edu (Francis Muir)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Nothing to do with: Accuracy in autobiography (was: GENIUS: Richard Feynman)
Date: 16 Nov 1992 11:57:08 GMT
Organization: Stanford Exploration Project
NNTP-Posting-Host: oas.stanford.edu

Paul Callahan writes:

	On this topic, can the following variation (or something 
	similar) be attributed to any person, real or fictional?

		"If I have seen farther than others, it's because I'm 
		surrounded by midgets." 

Lord Alfred "Too Tall" Tennyson"?

							Fido
From: jzimm@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Joann Zimmerman)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Et in Arcadia ego
Date: 15 Nov 92 20:36:06 GMT
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin TX

In article <12NOV92.14000432@vax.clarku.edu> hhenderson@vax.clarku.edu writes:

>MacFideau writes:

[I've deleted most of this discussion of good whisky in the interests
of foiling my newsreader]

>>Helps keep the price down. Obligatory booky reference? Oh yes, I believe
>>that Islay mist was the late Sir Compton mcKenzie's favourite tipple.

>Don't forget Laphroaig.

A more bookish reference may be made by noting that McKenzie was the
author of _Whisky Galore_; I've not read the book, but the film was a
truly delightful rendition of the horrifying things that can happen to
a Western Isles population stuck in wartime with no whisky, until a
shipwreck occurs ... I assume that the book was considerably more
cheerful than _Sinister Street_.

ObWhisky: Milton-Duff


-- 
"Every passion borders on the chaotic, but the collector's passion
borders on the chaos of memories" 
                                                -- Walter Benjamin
 ...!cs.utexas.edu!ccwf.cc.utexas.edu!jzimm   
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,sci.philosophy.meta
From: torkel@sics.se (Torkel Franzen)
Subject: Re: Wittgenstein, P.I.
Organization: Swedish Institute of Computer Science, Kista
	<TORKEL.92Nov21235600@bast.sics.se> <1992Nov21.233210.6519@eff.org>
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1992 00:13:04 GMT

In article <1992Nov21.233210.6519@eff.org> mnemonic@eff.org (Mike Godwin)
 writes:

   >I agree, although I believe that W himself would have disputed any claim
   >that he was an adherent of metaphysics.

  Not at all! He would have said, "let us consider how the expression
'adherent of metaphysics' is used".

  As for your comparison with "religious atheists", it is not altogether
misleading, in so far as the type of traditional metaphysics with which
Wittgenstein is most often associated - and which many Wittgensteinians
are at pains to dissociate Wittgenstein from - is the "this is nothing
more than..." type, such as finitism and behaviorism. Indeed Wittgenstein
himself has a comment about this.

   >Could you provide representative quotations, with dates? I would not dream
   >of disputing that the early Wittgenstein, student of Russell and Moore,
   >had some fairly traditional "metaphysical convictions."

  The early Wittgenstein had little to say about mathematics. Check
out the Philosophical Grammar, the Remarks on the Foundations of
Mathematics, the 1939 Lectures.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: rooney@cheshire.oxy.edu (Michael Sean Rooney)
Subject: Re: Why I am thrilled with the QPBC
Organization: Occidental College, Los Angeles, CA 90041 USA.
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1992 21:49:38 GMT

	After Mike Morris' complaints about "the tentacles of Camp
Hill PA" (i.e., the QPBC, BOMC, HBC, etc.), I may as well put in a
good word for The Reader's Subscription, which belongs to the fold 
of Newbridge Book Clubs (Library of Science and other subsidiaries).
RS offers a superior selection of hardcovers at reasonable prices
(if nothing else, they offer the Library of America volumes). 

Cordially,

Michael S. Rooney

"Moderation sees itself as beautiful; it is unaware that in the eye 
 of the immoderate it appears black and sober, and consequently ugly."
From: rpm@bach.wag.caltech.edu (Richard P. Muller)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: PUTTING ON THE RITZ by Joe Keenan
Date: 16 Nov 92 05:47:31
Organization: California Institute of Technology
Distribution: na
NNTP-Posting-Host: bach.wag.caltech.edu
In-reply-to: buckmr@marcus.its.rpi.edu's message of Mon, 16 Nov 1992 06:26:16 GMT


The name Joe Keenan rings a bell, and I can't think of where I might
of heard his name before. Could anyone post an author summary?

--


 Rick Muller 	    rpm@wag.caltech.edu
 Oedipa settled back, and awaited the crying of Lot 49
From: ian@spider.co.uk (Ian Heavens)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Property Rights (was re: Progress: The New Great Divide? (was Re: Cult)
Date: 19 Nov 92 10:21:27 GMT
Organization: Spider Systems Limited, Edinburgh, UK.

In article <JMC.92Nov17131759@SAIL.Stanford.EDU> jmc@cs.Stanford.EDU writes:
>Why doesn't Ian Heavens include the Israeli kibbutzim?  Is there some
>reason why they don't count?

This must be a misunderstanding.  My intention was to add other examples to
the kibbutzim, as communist societies not enforced by the state.  Of course they count.

ian

---
	 Ian Heavens			ian@spider.co.uk                 
 	 Spider Software
 	 Spider Park, Stanwell Street		
	 Edinburgh, EH6 5NG, Scotland	+44 31 555 5166 (Ext 4347)
--
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books