From: Bill.Carlson@p0.f18.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Bill Carlson)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: What Did Judas Betray?
Date: 16 Nov 92 19:38:10 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/18.0 - Midrash, Denver CO

To: avi@seal.imagen.com

 Av> That's exactly my point ! John is the only witness to Jesus since
 Av> he was the only one (out of the 4 gospels authors) who actually
 Av> LIVED in his time. All the 3 other gospels authors did NOT know
 Av> Jesus personally and lived years afterwards (some as late as 120-
 Av> 150 years later!) and are thus NOT acceptable witnesses !!

     Sorry, serious bubba-micer here!  The other "3" were written
     some 40 years before Yochanan's account, and are quoted from
     by various writers, {including in the Tal. Agada with a story
     involving Gamiel the II's daughter - 1st cent!}, in a variety
     of places.  First & Second Clement, Papias, and too many places
     to mention.  Now, if they are quoted in doc's from the early
     2nd century, it is reasonable to assume that they were written
     in the 1st, nu?!  Add to that, that we have an entire Arabic
     Disatarian {sp} from about 125 AD/Ce of all 4 accounts, & the Shem
     Tov Mishnaic version of Matthew, the early Syriac #30, and etc.,
     (all dating from 1st to 2nd cent AD/Ce) - it becomes clear that
     it is impossible for them to have been written 120-150 yrs later!

 Av> We do not hear in either the Jewish or Roman sources any hint that
 Av> Jesus was successful in convincing anybody other than a handful of
 Av> people about his divinity or messiahneship, etc. On the contrary,
 Av> until the Roman Empire adopted the Christian religion, it was a
 Av> minor movement even compared to Judaism (as far as number of
 Av> followers).

     Nope.  Available sources show that at the close of the 1st cent.,
     1/3 of all Jews were Messianic.  You should really read BAR more
     often, do discover just how many early, (a lot), Messinaic
     Synagogues have been unearthed in the last decade.  Besides,
     there are plenty of Roman writers who wrote during the 2nd cent.
     that talk about how many in numbers those of the "way" were
     becoming.  Get the book by FF Bruce - Sayings of Jesus outside of
     Scripture -(or something like that, am not at home at the moment).
     And in the current century, there are estimates that more than
     1/4 million Messianic Jews died in the death camps in WWII; and
     there are more than 1/4 million Messianic Jews today!  That of
     course makes us larger than the Lubavitcher movement, and still
     growing! :-)  Of course, if you want to talk about "numbers" being
     the yardstick..., wasn't it HaShem that told the Prophet Eliyahu
     that there were only "x"# of 1,000's in all of Israel that
     followed Him!  So..., if numbers were the factor, wicked king
     Ahaz's beliefs would have been correct, - G-d forbid!  No, it
     was the righteous FEW who followed HaShem that were correct!

 Av> died before achieveing what the Messiah is  supposed to achieve
 Av> (King of Israel, builder of the Temple restorer of daily rituals
 Av> there, and establisher of World peace !!! to name but a few)

     Ok..., please show us in Rabbinic lit. where Messiah ben-Yosef -
     the Suffering Messiah, before He dies - is supposed to do these
     things that are left for Messiah Ben-David to do!

 Av> As opposed to say Bar Kochva who we hear of , quite alot and was
 Av> even followed by VERY significant Rabbis (such as rabbi Akiva).
 Av> That goes to show 2 things: ...

     One of which, I would think, would be that the Rabbinim have been
     wrong in the past about Messiah - and regarding Yeshua they are
     still WRONG!

--  
Bill Carlson - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
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