From: doel@bae.bellcore.com (Michael Doel)
Subject: Re: Ohio State Football - No fun, no future to it's players and recruits
Organization: Bell Communications Research
	<DOEL.93Jan4151417@bbq.bae.bellcore.com>
	<1993Jan4.231023.12529@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>
Distribution: na
Date: 5 Jan 93 10:09:18


Min Zhao writes:

> In article <DOEL.93Jan4151417@bbq.bae.bellcore.com> doel@bae.bellcore.com (Michael Doel) writes:

> >> >excuse me, but 8-3-1 is a winning program.  It's also our best record under
> 
>      Yes, it is. No doubt about that, especially on paper. We all learned 
> arithmatics, we know 8 is better than 3, and we are smart enough to know
> 8-3 implys we won more times than we lost.

Then why did you imply that Ohio State doesn't have a winning program?  How
do you define one?  For me, it's a program which wins more than it loses
almost every year.  Ohio State certainly fits the bill.  That's not to say
that I'd be satisfied with 6-5 every year, but you said "Now if Ohio State
had a winning program..."


>     But ask the players on the team, ask the seniors, ask if they have won
> anything.  Ask how they really feel in their heart. Their heart says we NEVER
> won.

And pray tell, how do you know that?  I don't have the access to the players
that you seem to have.



> >Cooper (and an improvement over last year which was an improvement over the
> >previous year).  Ohio State is not some insignificant nobody on the map of
> >college football.
>     
>    Not totally yet...
> 
> >  We're still a highly respect power.
>          ^^^^^ 
>     Respected ? Sure. Highly respected ?  Maybe.  But that's not Cooper's
> credit to take.
>     Cooper's credit is in making that "still" into "used to be"

No, people like you should take the credit for that.  It's people like you
who doubt us that force me to use words like "still".  If you would just
recognize the facts, nobody would have to state the obvious as I did.


> >>                            Smith would benefit by staying in school and 
> >> showcase his abilities next season (and maybe the year after too). There
> >> is nothing for him to stay for (as far as football is corcerned).
> >
> >Smith has nothing to stay for?!?  How about a good shot at a Big10
> >Championship next year?  How about being amongst the group considered early
> >favorites for the Heisman trophy?  How about another full year to show he's
> >ready for the pros?
> 
>     How fast we forget !  Ask Chris Stassen and a few others, didn't they
> say last (92) should be Cooper's year ?

Well, I don't presume to speak for Chris, but as I recall, he's been one of
Cooper's bigger supporters here.  He's posted several articles showing that
Ohio State is a much more consistent team under Cooper than they were under
Bruce.  I can't recall him ever calling for Cooper to be fired.  But what
does this have to do with what Smith would have to stay for?


> Wasn't Smith considered a Heisman candidate early in the season ? 

Yes and had he not been injured early and often, he might have made a
serious run for it.  He'd likely have been a candidate again next year had
he decided to stay.



>    What Smith and many of the team members have seen are quite different
> from what you see.  They don't see no future here in Ohio State. They 
> have experienced disappointment after disappointment, grief after grief,
> reality after reality. 

How can they live with themselves?  I mean, only second in the Big Ten this
year with a winning record against winning teams?  And a New Year's Day bowl
game too.  I can see your point.  OBVIOUS SARCASM



>      Suppose we had gone 11-0 this year, (which we could), maybe we would 

If we had gone 11-0 this year would you still be maintaining Cooper was a
bad coach?  Well, we were a total of nine points from 11-0 during the
regular season.


> have a few more All Big-Tens and All-Americas ?  Don't you think so ? Maybe
> someone like Robert Smith or Steve Tovar might actually win an award or two ?
> Don't you think they have the atheletic skills ?

We've already covered wy Robert Smith didn't win more awards.  Steve Tovar
was first team all Big Ten.  He was also defensive player of the year in the
Big Ten.  He was a finalist for the Butkus Award.  We also had the freshman
of the year in the Big Ten in Korey Stringer.  What do you want?


> >You make it sound as if the players have nothing to do with it - like
> >they're little pawns in some coaching game.  The players have everything to
> >do with it.  John Cooper didn't lose to Illinois this year, the players did.
> >John Cooper didn't exhibit sloppy tackling against Georgia, the players did.
> >John Cooper didn't play uninspired against Wisconsin, the players did.  The
> >players aren't regretting their decision to come to Ohio State, they're
> >regretting the missed block or tackle that caused the loss.
>  
>    So can I be coach ?  Or maybe you will make a better coach ?

No thanks.  I think Cooper is doing far better than either of us could dream
to do.


>                                                                Sure, they
> are all the players doing.  But coach's job is to make sure they don't do 
> certain things and do certain things, and in the end, to win games. 

Now that's specific.  Here's what the coaching staff is responsible for:

	1. recruit enough talent to win
	2. prepare the team to know the game plan & the strengths and
	   weaknesses of the other team
	3. ensure that the team is solid fundamentally
	4. call the plays on the sideline
	5. handle public relations

And even number 3 is more the job of the assistants than it is of the head
coach.  After that, it's up to the players.  I can point to no game this
season where Cooper failed miserably in these categories.



>     How do you know they are not regreting their decision to come to Ohio
> State and not winning anything, no beating Michigan, no Rose Bowl, not 
> much anything else.  You don't seem to listen to what the players on this
> team have to say, do you ?  I even quoted some in my original article, you
> simply deleted those.

I deleted it because it was long.  Maybe some of the players are regretting
coming to Ohio State; I don't know.  I assert however that most are probably
just steamed at themselves for poor play.


> >Ohio State this year exhibited the talent and preparation to beat every team
> >they played.  That's the coach's job.  After that, it comes down to luck and
> >execution.  Don't blame the coach when these two don't go your way.  Blame
> >the players for poor execution. 
>  
>    That's Cooper's coaching style, point the blame finger at the players. 

And your stile is to point the blame finger at Cooper.



>    Continuity of what ?  I never understand that reasoning !

You said that a change in coaching staff wouldn't hurt recruiting.  Your
evidence was the USC situation.  I was merely pointing out that it's totally
different from the OSU situation.


> You already
> know someone can't do the job, and you want keep him for continuity !

I know someone can do the job.  I want to keep him for continuity.


> >>   Firing Cooper will only bring hope, and hope is what all is left here 
> >> in the state of Ohio, for the Ohio State players who already came
> >> here, for the Ohio young kids who are born to bleed Buckeye blood, for
> >> the millions of Ohioians who used to take pride in their Ohio State Buckeye
> >> football.
> >
> >Only if you can hire Bill Walsh, Lou Holtz, or resurrect Woody Hayes.  Just
> >about anyone else would reveal the act for the cowardice which precipitated
> >it.
>  
>    That's unknown, since we don't have not fired Cooper or hired anyone yet.
> But Cooper is known, he can't won anything of significance.

What is known about Cooper:

	a) he was national coach of the year before he came to Ohio State
	b) he has a history of winning at Tulsa and Arizona State
	c) he took over a program which had been having recruiting problems
	d) he has continuously upgraded the talent of the team
	e) the team has shown an improved record almost every year
	f) he has "significant" wins at Syracuse(92), at Iowa(90), and at
	   home against LSU(88).  Note, all were top ten teams.

	and to be fair:
	g) the team has failed to beat Michigan or Illinois or win a bowl
	   game under his direction
	h) the team has yet to win the conference championship under his
	   direction

Now, before you go firing Cooper, you better have in mind a couple of
coaches who have credentials at least equal to those of Cooper when he
arrived (refer back to (a) and (b)) or your just shooting in the dark.
Until then, I prefer to look at (d) and (e) and conclude that things are
still getting better.


--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mike Doel				<doel@bae.bellcore.com>
444 Hoes Lane RRC 1B-209
Piscataway, NJ 08854

"For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat
 and wrong." - H.L. Mencken
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Newsgroups: rec.sport.football.college