From: bickis@skmath3.pa.dec.COM ("M. Bickis")
Subject: Re: Rational person standard
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Organization: University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Canada
Date: 12 Aug 92 20:38:37 GMT

In article <16741aINN3vg@agate.berkeley.edu> rdh@veritas.com
(Robert Hartman) writes:
>As far as I'm concerned, any rational standard for evaluating the
>degree of appropriateness or offensiveness of any given behavior is a
>consensus among those people who are on the receiving end of that
>behavior.

This sounds rational, until you test its limits.  If there is a
consensus among the male members of a private club that the presence
of a woman is offensive, would you say that is a rational standard?
If all the members of a white congregation are offended by the
presence of a black worshipper, is that a rational standard?

>When I hear a consensus among women that uninvited touch is
>offensive, as I have heard all my life, that's good enough for me.
>When I hear a consensus among women that uninvited comments on
>appearance or sexual characteristics are offensive, as I have all my
>life, that's good enough for me.  As a man, I have enough respect for
>myself to respect whatever boundaries are clearly articulated.

This would be true if there *were* a consensus, but evidently there is
not.  I know there are women who *enjoy* polite comments made about
their appearance, and I have even known women who (much to my dismay)
seem to enjoy *lewd* comments.  A compliment to one may be interpreted
as a sexist remark by another.  Similarly, one woman might interpret a
touch as a friendly gesture, to another, it may be a pass.  (Note you
said "uninvited" not "unwelcome".)

> Also, the minority of women who want to exploit men via sex tend to
>sabotage the clear communication whenever it is in their immediate
>interest to do so, and this too leave men confused.

This is part of the problem, and I wonder, how small is this minority?
Is it as small as the men who "tend to listen to what other men say
rather than what women say"?

>Not knowing the rules is a real issue for men within a culture in
>which transgression of sexual boundaries is constantly eroticised.
>Let me repeat, this is a _men's_ issue.  It causes _men_ distress,
>[but]...there is something even more profoundly real and satisfying
>about taking things right up to the agreed-upon boundary and leaving
>them there.

I agree with all this.

>Oddly, while there is a consensus among feminists that posters
>featuring "beautiful" women are offensive, I've heard otherwise from
>many non-feminist women.  Either there's some more consciousness
>raisng to be done (a la Naomi Wolf) on this issue, or there's some
>more information to be accepted, perhaps on both sides of that issue.

Such as accepting the fact that there is *not* a consensus.  Do
"feminists" want to ban the Mona Lisa, Boticelli's "Birth of Venus",
or any other work featuring a beautiful woman?  On my dining room wall
hangs an etching of a beautiful, naked woman, smiling at the sun.
This etching used to belong to my mother.  It is a favorite of both my
wife and my sister.  The artist herself was a woman.  You want to
"raise the conciousness" of all these people?

If somebody does something *intentionally* to offend me, then I see
the offender as culpable, and deserving of correction.  But if *I* am
offended because of an innocent action on another's part, then that is
*my* problem.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>bickis@math.usask.ca<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Mik Bickis       \,,,       .*#*.  \    University of Saskatchewan
Department of        \,,,  ^\\|//^  ```\   Saskatoon, Saskatchewan
Mathematics & Statistics \   )|(        ```\   Canada      S7N 0W0
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<S|A|S|K|A|T|C|H|E|W|A|N|>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


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