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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Fri, 16 Oct 1992 10:24:00 EST
From:         "DRCV06::GRAHAM" <GRAHAM%DRCV06.decnet@DRCVAX.AF.MIL>
Subject:      God, logic and our brains.

Ian, you are absolutely correct and if I had thought for a few more
minutes, I'd have remembered my neurological training.  I can remember my
sister who used to be a medical secretary.  I'd call her at work and hear a
typewriter going.  I asked her what that was, she was talking with me on
the phone with a Dictaphone in the other ear.  She was talking to me and
typing medical dictation at the same time without missing a beat on either.
 Neural networking and the quantum level of neurotransmitter conductivity
are certainly not von neuyman in nature.  What I was trying to demonstrate
was that our minds are highly limited in terms of the number of things we
can think of at once, God's isn't.

Dan Graham
From: clifton9220@iscsvax.uni.edu
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: GOD'S HOLINESS!!!
Date: 7 Oct 92 12:06:49 -0500
Organization: University of Northern Iowa

IN THE MIDST OF ALL OUR PROBLEMS AND ARGUEMENTS, OUR GOD IS STILL AN AWESOME
GOD.  GOD'S HOLINESS DOES NOT REST ON THE BLESSINGS HE GIVES US.

KEN.
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Fri, 9 Oct 1992 16:32:44 EDT
From:         JEK@NIHCU.BITNET
Subject:      For Sunday 11 Oct 1992

FOR SUNDAY 11 OCTOBER 1992

READING: Ruth 1:1-19a
 (The widow Naomi is alone, but her daughter-in-law, Ruth, a
foreigner from Moab, vows to stand by her.)

PSALM 113
 (Blessed be God, who remembers the poor and needy, and makes the
barren fruitful.)

EPISTLE: 2 Timothy 2:3-15
 (Paul encourages Timothy to serve God as a loyal soldier, like an
athlete in training, like farmer tending the crop and expecting a
bountiful harvest.)

THE HOLY GOSPEL: Luke 17:11-19
 (Christ heals ten lepers. Only one, a foreigner from Samaria,
returns to give Him thanks.)

PRAYER
   Lord, we pray that thy grace may always precede and follow us,
   and make us continually to be given to all good works; through
   Jesus Christ our Lord, who liveth and reigneth with thee and
   the Holy Spirit, one God, for ever and ever.
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Fri, 9 Oct 1992 08:38:41 CDT
From:         Tom Brewer <NOTTMB@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Security of salvation?
              8 Oct 1992 17:14:34 -0400 from <ewanco@MLO.DEC.COM>

ERIC:
You write:

> You're contradicting yourself.  There are still people who believe the
> Gospel, have faith, and so forth, but who later may commit a sin that
> [supposedly] cannot be committed by a regenerate person.  Do you think
> that all such people acted as Christians, and thought they were
> Christians, when in fact they did not really believe and have faith?

The above seems to be "contradicting." How can "people who believe the
Gospel, have faith, and so forth," become UNregenerate? Only those who
have been regenerated by God (born again) can believe the Gospel, have
faith, and so forth. Are you saying that eternal life is not eternal?
That one can have eternal life for a temporal amount of time?
Who keeps the believer in the faith: the believer by his works or
Jesus Christ by His grace?
If no one can remove the believer from the hand of Christ, whose hand is
in the Father's hand, then the believer is secure. Unless of course the
believer is stronger than God and can pry the Father's hand open and
remove himself, even though Christ said no one can do this.

False religion wants a man to think his salvation depends upon his efforts.
False religion wants a man to think his security depends upon his efforts.
False religion wants a man to think his justification depends upon his efforts.
False religion wants a man to think his sanctification depends upon his efforts

Jesus Christ has restored the believer to communion with the Father.
Jesus Christ has reconciled the believer to a right relationship and status of
favor with God.
Jesus Christ has redeemed the believer from the curse and bondage of the law
and human efforts to work one's way to Heaven.

Tom Brewer

"The greatest and most ancient Church known to God's people, founded and
 organized by the Father, Son and Holy Spirit at Jerusalem and spread to the
 hearts of believers everywhere, that Church which has the Word of God and
 faith which comes down to the elect after having been announced to men by
 the Prophets and Apostles. For with this Church, because of her divine
 origin, all men must agree ... and it is in her that the elect everywhere
 have maintained the Gospel of Jesus Christ."
    ---St. Thomas, Against Catholicism, c. 1992 A.D.
From: LIBSAC@EMUVM1.BITNET (SHELBY A. CROSS)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Reply-Prayer Request-Bernice
Date: 13 Oct 92 15:42:17 GMT
Organization: Emory University - Atlanta, Georgia, USA
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X-Acknowledge-To: <LIBSAC@EMUVM1>

Dear Bernice,

In Mt. 18:19 (NIV)  "Again, I tell you that if two of  you on earth agree
about anything you ask for, it will be  done for you by my Father in hea-
ven."

Dear Heavenly Father,

We  thank you  and praise  you for  all your  many blessings.  We are  in
agreement with Bernice  for her mother to  be healed from the  top of her
head to  the soles  of her  feet and  that these  tests will  return back
negative. Like the  woman with the issue of blood  we take authority over
this illness and command you spirit  of infirmity to leave in Jesus name.
Father we speak healing  to her body and we thank you  in advance for an-
swering our prayers.  In Jesus Name I pray.  Amen and Amen.

Love your sister in Christ,

Shelby --Atlanta, GA.--Emory University
From: DRAKE@ASUCHM.LA.ASU.EDU ((MARK DRAKE))
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: John Michael Talbot's music style
Date: 15 Oct 92 17:09:29 GMT
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My brother just wrote me asking for information on John Michael Talbot's music
style.  He is interested in buying his christmas album.  While the name is
familiar to me, I don't know anything about him.

I am assuming he is a christian artist??
Does anyone know anything that could help?

Mark
From: NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET (Jesse Carnes)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: Security of Salvation?
Date: 13 Oct 92 18:18:56 GMT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
              13 Oct 1992 08:30:07 -0700 from <DRAKE@ASUCHM.LA.ASU.EDU>

Gareth ;

Please be patient with me, but your argument is rather existential.
Besides one of your statements should have been phrased in the form of
an open question.  Else, in a court of law, youb would have been "leading
the witness."

Fact is Gareth, I believe there are many facts out in the world, some
proven by extrinsic data and other axiomatic facts proven intrinsically
by the law of consistency.

However, as I define "Truth", all truth that can be ascertained in this
life can be found ONLY within the Word of God.
Obviously, the Lord has more Truth, but has revealed only a sufficient
amount of it for the sake of those who will come to Christ by faith.
Anything extra-Biblical that can be proven via data is a fact and anything
which is extra-Biblical which is proven false is either mis-information or
a lie.


In Christ ;

Jesse
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Fri, 9 Oct 1992 10:32:46 CDT
From:         "St. Jesse of Keesler" <NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Authority - issues

Tom Purcel ;

Good ish. you are dealin' with.

No matter how our present U.S. gov. is structured, we as Christians
obviously cannot go against EXPLICIT Scriptures ... they also obviously have
preeminence over any civil authority.

However, in areas not clearly spelled out, it becomes a matter of a man's
conscience before remaining "Clear", i.e., Undefiled.
So, in light of Romans *14* , we must MUST keep our consciences clear
before the Lord and we also MUST permit another Christian to have their own
conscience viewpoint in such grey areas.


Jesse Carnes
From: CCCHRIS@MIZZOU1.BITNET (Chris Reed)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: A word to the hate mail watchers.
Date: 15 Oct 92 02:24:38 GMT
Organization: University of Missouri-Columbia Campus Computing, 314-882-2000
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              14 Oct 1992 11:48:00 EST from <GRAHAM%DRCV06.decnet@DRCVAX.AF.MIL>

Dan, after a very long spell of silence between us [was I in your kill file?]
I'd like to say I wholeheartedly agree with you.  Which goes to show, here on
Christia, amazing things can happen.

To our anonymous reader:  Have you read Christia with an open heart and and
mind?  We have agnostics, athiests, a wiccan, new agers, right wingers, left
wingers, and just about every conceiveable religious affiliation/personality
you can think of.  Is it any wonder there is sometimes disagreement?  But I've
yet to see anyone get really slammed.  And on those rare occasions when our
beloved listowners have had to intervene, they have had the utmost class and
integrity, and we are priviledged to enjoy the edification and continued
blessing of Christia.  It's not perfect, buy hey - we're not in Heaven yet!

The hair on my arms stands on end when I see what appears to be an infringe-
ment of our constitutional rights to freedom of speech and religion.  Christia
is like a big, extended family.  And have you ever seen a perfect family?
Have you ever seen a family reunion go off without a hitch?  Has anyone?
I haven't.  But if you've missed the love that freely flows between the lines
on this Listserv, you haven't been looking long/well enough.  Please reserve
judgement/criticism until you've given it a long, honest look-see...or, better
yet, join us!  Jesus tells us that in His Father's house, there are many
mansions.  We struggle to believe this.  We reach out to one another in a
spirit of brotherly and sisterly love.  As the saying goes, we aren't perfect.
Just forgiven.

I'll pray for you, and for this list.

Most sincerely,  Chris Reed
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Wed, 7 Oct 1992 14:12:35 CDT
From:         Jesse Carnes <NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: That P' word again
              7 Oct 1992 14:04:11 -0500 from <BKCOBB@LIFE.UAMS.EDU>

As a reply to the individual who implemented the "God is not willing that
ANY should perish..." scenario from 2 Peter 3, let me show not that the topic
of that section was the then soon to occur Parousia of Christ.
Contextually, Peter is using Eschatological language of the most dramatic
sort.  This same language was used more than once in the O.T. to show the
end of an era or ruler, but NEVER the end of the planet.
Overstatement is a genuine grammatical genre of the O.T. and is used to
indicate the next "Day of the Lord" as stated by Peter.

Specifically, Peter is indicating that God was not willing that any of God's
ELECT should perish, but be saved in the judgement that was soon to occur at
that time upon Apostate Israel.

How could it be people in general, if God was NOT WILLING for ANY to perish?
If God is not willing for something to occur, are we stronger than the will
of God?  Actually, Jesus says that God is not willing for any of those GIVEN
to Himself to perish, but that they should be raised up at the last day.
Do we doubt this as well, or can we say that our wills are stronger than
God's?



Jesse Carnes
From: K119TO@TAMVM1.BITNET (Stuart)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: Medjugorje
Date: 14 Oct 92 18:56:52 GMT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Comments:     In-Reply-To: note of Wed,
              14 Oct 1992 12:46:00 MDT from Steven Klepzig

From:   Stuart T Oliver
Steven,
With regard to the CRI report on Medjugorje, I would be interested in seeing
the summary of their report

                                               Stuart Oliver
                                               Texas A&M University
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
From: creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Steve Creps)
Subject: Re:      asceticism
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 17:04:38 GMT

In article <921014191935.3564@ASUCHM.LA.ASU.EDU> "(MARK DRAKE)" <DRAKE@ASUCHM.LA.ASU.EDU> writes:
>I was wondering if you could say what the biblical evidence for acsceticism
>is?  I can't remember ever coming across any.

   Matthew 3:4 is a good example:

	   "John himself had clothing made of camel's hair.  He wore a
	leather belt around his waist and ate locusts and wild honey."

   The camel's hair clothing would have been less than comfortable,
and the diet attributed to John the Baptist (insects and wild honey)
sounds like he was really "roughing it."

-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
Steve Creps, Indiana University
creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu
From: GRAHAM%DRCV06.decnet@DRCVAX.AF.MIL (DRCV06::GRAHAM)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Two natures vs. one new nature.
Date: 13 Oct 92 17:37:00 GMT
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Jesse, Hey guy, didn't mean to confuse you.  I spend part of my long
weekend thinking on this topic of how Christians can sin and whether they
have two or one nature.

Ezekiel 36 clearly tells of the new heart that is given to the Christian
under the New Covenant.  As you observed, Romans 6 shows that we are no
longer in bondage to sin, and chapter 8 shows tha t we are free of
condenmation in Christ.  I believe that chapter seven shows we are of a
dual nature in the sense that there are two different sets of drives.  We
are one nature in absolute terms, crucified with Christ as Paul says in Gal
2:20.  John says in 1 john 3 6-9 that the nam of God cannot sin, so I take
it that the Christian, the part of me that is a Christian, my heartt,
cannot sin.  The old body, though, still sins.  We are in the unenviable
position of having a new heart in an old body and will be so until the
parousia when we get the immortal bodies that Paul speaks of in 1 Cor 15.

So, No, I don't think we really have two natures, but we most certainly do
have two sets of drives, one from God and one from Adam's sin.  We still
must contend with the old drives, but are not held responsible for what
those drives do, responsible in terms of salvation, not necessairly in
terms of physical results here on earth.

There, is that more confusing than ever?  I hope not, but you never know...

Dan Graham
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Organization: Emory University - Atlanta, Georgia, USA
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Fri, 9 Oct 1992 11:10:14 EDT
From:         "SHELBY A. CROSS" <LIBSAC@EMUVM1.BITNET>
Subject:      PRAYER REQUEST-REPLY TO STEVEN K.

Greetings Steven in Jesus Name!

I know what you're going through all too well.

Dear Heavenly Father - Abba Father,

In the name of Jesus we ask you to take all pain and discomfort away from
Steven. We ask you  also to make this visit for him  not be an unpleasant
one. We pray that  all goes well for him and Father  that you give Steven
a speedy recovery.  In Jesus name we pray - Amen.

Your sister in Christ,

Shelby --Atlanta, Georgia - Emory University
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Date:         Thu, 15 Oct 1992 22:12:34 -0400
From:         Eric James Ewanco <ewanco@MLO.DEC.COM>
Subject:      Re: celibacy

Mike Morris writes:

> I'm no biblical scholar, so please correct me if (ok, WHEN) I err!

> First, I can't think of any way in which Jesus urged people to celibacy.

"Not all can accept this word, but only those to whom that is granted. Some
are incapable of marriage because they were born so; some, because they
were made so by others; some, because they have renounced marriage for the
sake of the kingdom.  Whoever can accept this ought to accept it" (Matt.
19:9-12).

Note that Jesus is urging all who can accept celibacy to adopt it, though
certainly not all can accept it.

Also recall that Jesus was unmarried, and celibacy is an imitation of Jesus.

Paul says:
"To the unmarried and to the widows I say: It is a good thing for them to
remain as they are, as I do, but if they cannot exercise self-control they
should marry, for it is better to marry than to be on fire" (1 Cor 7:7-9).

Also in Revelation:
"I looked and there was the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with him a
hundred and forty-four thousand who had his name and his Father's name written
on their foreheads . . . These are they who were not defiled with women; they
are virgins and these are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever he goes"
(Rev 14:1, 4).

> Second, when Paul said it was better to be single, didn't the context
> make it clear that he meant an apostle/evangelist, on the road most of
> the time as he himself was, was better off single?

In one context, he did -- which is why Latin rite Catholic priests are
celibate.  In other contexts, he applied it to all.

> I don't believe at all that celibacy is a "higher state", unless and
> until God specifically calls one to it. (And few are called to it...)

Well, Scripture doesn't give us an idea of how many are called to it. Just
that some are.
From: NOTTMB@LSUVM.BITNET (Tom Brewer)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: Teachings of Jesus/Special versus Universal
Date: 16 Oct 92 16:26:23 GMT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU

On Fri, 16 Oct 1992 09:33:53 CDT Michael Million said:


> ...DELETED TEXT......  Jesus' message of the universal brotherhood of
> man and a spiritual kingdom in heaven did not appeal to their need to
> be special; it was not enough for them that all are _individually_
> special to the Father.  When the Son of God pronounced the message of
> universal salvation, the religious leaders were offended and fearful
> that such a message might prove the eventual disruption of their
> 'special' ways and even take over the whole world!

Is this message of the universal brotherhood, etc. in The Urantia Book?
Because it sure isn't in the Holy Book.
 ...more deleted...

> Honest hearts know that whatever spiritual potentials are awaiting
> them personally, must be awaiting all men ... for a divine plan must
> be fair and just by definition.
>

By whose definition? Your's or God's? What defines it? The Bible or
The Urantia Book?

...still more deleted...

> The teachings of Jesus are of an eternal nature; he has told us that
> he will not let us forget them.  He, of course, has been true to his
> word as he has provided us not only with the Spirit of Truth in each of
> our hearts but also a detailed accounting of his life and teachings
> written by the very celestial personalities that have helped and still
> do help him administer this most unusual of worlds.

"Celestial personalities?"  Are we talking aliens here? How many other
"worlds" are we to be concerned with?

... and still more deleted...

> and spiritual blindness.  It is a crass human notion that entertains
> the idea that the ever-merciful Father would demand Jesus so sacrifice
> himself for the misdeeds of mortals.

Praise God for His mercy. Because of Christ's sacrifice, we can have mercy
from God.

>                                a brother in Jesus,  Michael
Which "Jesus" are you talking about? The Jesus of the Holy Book (Bible) or the
"Jesus" of The Urantia Book?

This is really an example of why theology, good, sound Biblical theology is a
must for every believer. The believer loves Truth. The false notion of
"No doctrine, just Jesus" opens one up to any sort of "Jesus" out there.

Tom Brewer
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Organization: Emory University - Atlanta, Georgia, USA
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Wed, 7 Oct 1992 05:38:54 EDT
From:         "SHELBY A. CROSS" <LIBSAC@EMUVM1.BITNET>
Subject:      REPLY TO WARNING-GARETH McCAUGHAN

Greetings in the name of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ,

I will  attempt to answer  your question. There  are verses in  the Bible
that refer to  people who act like they have  salvation; many times these
people are  referred to as  'hypocrites' sort  of like the  Pharasees and
Saducees.  Mark 7:6  "He replied,  "Isaiah was  right when  he prophesied
about  you hypocrites;  as it  is written:  'These people  honor me  with
their lips, but their hearts are far  from me." Titus 1:16 "They claim to
know God, but  by their actions they deny him.  They are detestable, dis-
obedient and unfit for doing anything good."

My last scripture is Matt. 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord
will enter  in to the kingdom  of heaven, but  only he who does  the will
of my Father who  is in heaven." There will always be  people who will be
professing or confessing one thing and  in their heart they are somewhere
else altogether. Only  those who do the  will of the Father  are going to
enter into heaven."  God looks at the heart of man.  (NIV Version)
(These are just a few scriptures).

No matter how much I tell you I love you, I must love you from the heart.
I might be  telling you I love you  just to get a better  position or for
a gift  that I  might think  you will  give me.  The person's  motives or
heart in this case has to be sincere.  I hope this helps.

Yours in Christ,

Shelby Cross ----- Atlanta, Georgia  --USA
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
From: timk@world.std.com (Tim King)
Subject: Re: God and logic.
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 23:55:08 GMT

Dan Graham writes:

>Jesse, I'd have to agree with Nancy on this one.  God certainly uses logic
>and what we perceive as correct thinking when communicating with us,
>because He created us to deal with that type of communication, but to
>expand that to His entire thinking process is, I blieve, unjustified.


I, as well, must agree with Dan and Nancy.  I'm not sure if Jesse even
understands our points, but here's my version of it along with some
scripture.

(1) When God communicates with us in His written word, he uses human
    language.  (No... really??? :-)

(2) God may think in human language, but, more likely, he thinks in
    totally different terms.  In any case, His reasoning power is
    perfect and infinite.  (It is my personal belief that, since God
    created the whole universe, He lives outside of time.  This
    would account for His omnipresent and omniscient character.)

(3) Unless God specifically tells us, there is no way that we can
    know His thought processes or second-guess their outcome.

See Isa 40:28; 55:7-9; Ps 40:5; 139:18; 147:5; Job 11:7-9; Rom 11:33-36

-TimK
-- 
Tim King              <>  |  "It is an old maxim of mine that when you have
24 Myrtle Street       |  |  excluded the impossible, whatever remains,
Dedham, MA 02026     < |  |  however improbable, must be the truth."
timk@world.std.com    \|  |           (Sherlock Holmes, The Beryl Coronet)
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Wed, 7 Oct 1992 18:49:53 -0700
From:         "(MARK DRAKE)" <DRAKE@ASUCHM.LA.ASU.EDU>
Subject:      theologically profound song :-)

	The other day, we were singing at a Baptist Student Union
meeting, and I realized that one of the songs we were singing had to
be one of the most theologically profound, if not _ the _ most
theologically profound song I've come across.  I think you know it:

God is so good
God is so good
God is so good
He's so good to me

He cares for me
He cares for me
He cares for me
He's so good to me

He loves me so
He loves me so
He loves me so
He's so good to me

Mark
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