HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jhultman@vitalink.com
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Deer Loads for .35 Remington Wanted.
Date: 14 Aug 92 19:11:46 GMT
Organization: Vitalink Communications Corporation


#  I recently purchased a Marlin 336 in .35 Remington
#and look forward to using it for deer season this fall
#in Pennsylvania (Forest County).
# Can anyone recommend any good handloads in the 220
#to 220 grain bullet class?  Nothing hot, just a good,
#accurate load. I hunt heavy woods and most deer are
#taken w/in 100 yards.
#  I have a fair amount of experience handloading for
#handguns, but this will be my first time handloading for
#a rifle.
#  Thanks in advance.
#Ken
---------------------------------------------------------

Ken,
In looking up loading data for the 35 Remington, the Speer # 10 manual 
lists the 180 grain Flat Nose as the heaviest of their offerings.  I'll
post some data for this bullet and leave it to you for consideration.
There are nine different powders to chose from.  H414, H380, 748, 
H335, IMR 4895, IMR 4320, BLC2, RE7, SR4759  of which can be used
for reduced loads(1500 - 1650 fps).  I'll use IMR 4895 as it is one of the fastest burning
powders for this caliber and a fast powder is recommended as the case/pow-
der capacity is small.  This caliber is good for up to 150 yards.
Test Rifle, Marlin 336 in 35 Remington.  20"  barrel w/ a 1-16 twist.

IMR 4895,   CCI 200 primers, 
358 Dia Speer 180 Flat Nose, Ballistic Coefficient = .245
Max load  37.0 grains at 2055 fps muzzle velocity

               35.0       "        1929 fps          "

Min load   33.0       "        1811 fps          "

Using the Ballistic Coefficient tables in the back of the manual, ( I chose a mid/
random velocity of 2000 fps which you'll notice is between the 35 and 37
grain loads.  Since the tables give results they found in their labs I 
should note and disclaim that your mileage may vary and a chronograph
is the only way to know what your actuall velocity will be) for the .245
BC @ 2000 fps muzzle velocity shows that a 100 yard zero the velocity
has dropped to 1693 fps and 6.36 Energy, Ft Lb/grain or 6.36 X 180 =
1144.8 Ft Lbs of energy at 100 yards.  The bullet will then drop 
10.8 " between 100 and 200 yards with a velocity of 1425 fps.

I suspect you chose this caliber, since you reload handguns, and 35 Remington
is .358 in diameter.  The same as 38/357.  But just a guess.  Compatible
rifle/handgun reloading components?  Others may note that the light .358
bullets 125, 140 158 grain bullets are listed in this section as well under 
357 Magnum and 38 Special sections.  (different powders, resizing dies and 
primers).

But the 180 grain Flat Nose listed ARE FOR RIFLES ONLY!!!  (or Thompson Contenders).

This post is for letting individuals on this group get an idea of what reloading is about.
If your interested in reloading, buy and read the manuals, get help from an experienced
handloader, pay attention to safety as variables that increase pressure are many.
Don't take short cuts.  The above information is for review only.

Jeff
From: kdw@icd.ab.com (Kenneth D. Whitehead)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re:Colt Sportster/AR-15 Magazine Compatibility?
Date: 20 Aug 92 21:41:01 GMT
Organization: Allen-Bradley Company, Inc.

Many thinks to all you guys out there that responded to my inquiry wrt
compatibility of AR-15 mags with the Colt Sporter.

The general consensus out there is that the AR-15 extended capacity mags
work just fine in the Sporter, and that the stock Sporter 5 round mags can
be modified to accept 20 rds. with little effort.  This raises the logical
question:

Is using a high capacity mag, or modifying the 5 rd. mag against the law?
Was the development of the 5 rd. mag just a PR stunt on Colt's part, or
did they have to do it?  I was browsing through the local ordinances down
at the library, and SURPRISE!  I found that in my community, a semi-auto
which "can" use a high capacity mag is considered to be "dangerous ordinance"
and you're supposed to have a special permit from the Chief of Police.  (This
came as something of a surprise to me, and I haven't been able to find anybody
alse who knew about it, either.  Sounds like a convenient excuse to grab your
guns if the cops have to visit you for any reason.  Man; the stuff these sneaky 
little local Demo-commies pass when we're not lookin'!)

Ken
From: dcwst8+@pitt.edu (David C Winters)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Another snapcap question.
Date: 20 Aug 92 01:02:46 GMT
Organization: University of Pittsburgh


I know that this thread has been beaten to death, but I'd like to throw
an idea into the hat, for purification by flames>  :-)

It involves the semiauto's equivalent of the revolver training method:
randomly load live rounds and snapcaps into the cylinder for
flinch-training.

Have a friend randomly load live rounds and snap caps into the magazine,
and you insert it, drop the slide, etc.  You don't know what's in the
chamber.  Squeeze the trigger.

1) it goes <click>  You've just 'fired' a snapcap.  Work the slide
manually, and repeat.

2) it goes BANG!  It's now ready to squeeze the trigger again.

The only problem I can see, is that:  Are snapcaps' construction sturdy
enough to take a slide's cycling?

Is that a problem?  Are there any other problems with this idea?


--
David Winters
dcwst8@unix.cis.pitt.edu *OR* winters@vms.cis.pitt.edu

	Illigitimi non carborundum
From: earlw@Apple.COM (Earl Wallace)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Gun Safe
Date: 21 Aug 92 18:02:16 GMT
Organization: Bit Flippers, Inc.


In article <51870019@hpscit.sc.hp.com> glaird@hpscit.sc.hp.com (Gordon Laird) writes:
#     From my research I have a sneaky suspicion that all safes are really
#made by one or two manufacturers in Utah, and everyone gets them from them.
#I.E. Browning, Fort Knox, etc just have their logo's affixed to a particular
#safe at the factory.
#     A locksmith friend of mine, told me the real delimiter in safe
#effectiveness is the lock.  My 'Liberty' safe has an S&G class II lock.  My
#friend says class III is best, but mine is good enough for its purpose.

My Fort Knox Yeager 12000 XT safe (1,400+ lbs.) has a S&G Group 2 MR
(Manipulation Resistent) lock.  I don't know if "class" and "group" mean
the same thing, but it seems doudbtful because the S&G Grooup 1 MP
(MP - Manipulation Proof) lock is more secure than the Group 2.  The combo
lock also has a key lock inside the center of the dial so it can't be turned.
From: th2_oate@csd.brispoly.ac.uk (Tom Oates)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Book research: Bullets in water.
Date: 12 Aug 92 13:32:01 GMT
Organization: Bristol Polytechnic, England

In article <1992Aug11.115737.15551@dxcern.cern.ch> mcmanus@dxcern.cern.ch (Leo McManus) writes:
#My hero is being shot at from about 200-300 Meters with an SLR .76 caliber.
#I need to know how far he must dive if he is to be anywhere near safe.
#Will the bullets travel reasonably straight when in the water?
#
#Appreciate your help.
#Leo
#
#[MODERATOR:  "single lens reflex" ....?]

SLR stands for "Self Loading Rifle". It was the term commonly used 
by the Brits to refer to their standard combat rifle (A Belgian FN 
FAL clone in 7.62 NATO) before the SA80 took over.

-- 
*************************************************************************
*  Tom Oates  (Bristol Poly, England)    *   DISCLAIMER:-               *
*  JANET: th2_oate@csd.brispoly.ac.uk    *   I speak only for myself.   *
*************************************************************************
From: dcwst8+@pitt.edu (David C Winters)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Need help restoring a family relic
Date: 20 Aug 92 01:02:30 GMT
Organization: University of Pittsburgh


In article <viking.714178077@vincent1.iastate.edu> viking@iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson) writes:
#
#	Above all, talk to the gunsmith.  He'll know, or find out,
#what you will need and coach you every step of the way if he's any
#kind of decent smith.
#
#[MODERATOR:  Let me underscore the caution that Dan gives above.  Remember
#that a shotgun from that era is likely to be a *blackpowder* shotgun, and
#is unlikely to ever shoot any modern load you can find in a store.]

Not quite - if the rounds fit, the gun can *fire* it, but not
necessarily survive the process.  Way back when, during the period of
time between blackpowder use, and smokeless-powder use, there were
certain organizations (this was in England) (shooting clubs?, military 
quartermasters?, I don't know *who* did it) that would take your 
blackpowder gun, and test it with smokeless powder.  The object of this
excercise was to "certify" guns for the new powder.

They blew up a *LOT* of fine old blackpowder guns this way...
 
--
David Winters
dcwst8@unix.cis.pitt.edu *OR* winters@vms.cis.pitt.edu

	Illigitimi non carborundum
From: edward@locutus.dell.com (Edward Godwin)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Browning A-bolt
Date: 21 Aug 92 03:36:00 GMT
Organization: Dell Computer Corporation

In article <9208190942.aa17275@sco1.qdeck.com>, burge@qdeck.com (Bill Burge) writes:
|> In article <1992Aug18.234105.5255@raid.dell.com> edward@locutus.dell.com (Edward Godwin) writes:
|> #
|> #Just FYI,  I do not think that the bbl is glass-bedded.  Mine is free-floating.
|> #By the definition that I have for the two terms, they are contradictory.
|> #
|> 
|> The terms are not contradictory, they can be complimentary.  Most of my
|> guns are glass-bedded AND free-floated.  I know 'cause I did it myself.
|> Glassbedding refers to mating the action to the stock with a hard bedding
|> compound, usually fiberglass resin.  THe barrel does not have to bedded.
|> Most people bed the action only and leave the barrel alone. Except to 
|> free float it.  That is to relieve any pressure on the barrel forward of
|> the chamber.  The point at which to stop near the reciever is a point of
|> debate.  Some think that the first 3 or 4 inches of the barrel should be
|> bedded.  I bed about the first inch and leave it at that.
|> 
|> Bill	burge@qdeck.com

	Thanks for the clarification!  For some reason, I always thought the
glass bedding material would be used all along the length of the barrel also.
(Sound of palm SMACKING forehead).  So I naturally thought that free floating
was the antithesis of glass beading.  However; now that I think about it, this
would not be correct, as most barrels make a "whipping" motion when fired unless
they are rather large in diameter.  Anyway, thanks for the enlightenment.

In view if this new evidence, I can definitely say that A-Bolt Stalkers are
free floated.  I can not say definitely whether or not it is glass bedded.
-- 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"A little revolution, now and then, is a healthy thing.  Don't you think?"
                                                    - Capt. Marco Ramius
                                                    "The Hunt for Red October"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
edward@locutus.dell.com **NRA**ILA**TSRA-Life**ARC**
_______________________________________________________________________________
Disclaimer:  My opinions are not presented as remotely related, or similar to,
the opinions of my employer.  They can make up their own minds.......       
_______________________________________________________________________________
From: gray@hawkmoon.mn.org (Bill Gray)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: SKS v Mini-30 ammo
Date: 17 Aug 92 22:34:17 GMT
Organization: Demi-Public System (One of the Eternal Champions); Eagan, MN, 55123-2507, USA

I own an SKS and while talking to a shooting buddy about the Mini-30, he
said that the bore of the Mini-30 was slightly smaller than the SKS and that
shooting the cheap surplus ammo through the Mini-30 was a good way to rip
the throat out of it.  He said you had to use the expensive new factory
ammo or reload for it, but the military surplus stuff was no good.

Is this true, or was my buddy misinformed?  Can surplus ammo be safely fired
in Mini-30s?  What about the new AR-15 chambered for 7.62x39?

Thanks,

Bill
PS.  I like the SKS.  Great value for the money, especially if you don't
mind an ungly stock.
-- 
gray@hawkmoon.mn.org
This site gets a fair news feed, but e-mail is more reliable. . . :-(
"Veni, vidi, vomiti!"  -- the ghost of Tom Jefferson on reading the Brady Bill
From: r36110m@kaira.hut.fi (Mika Matti Jalava)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Top Man Stoppers??
Date: 19 Aug 92 12:39:16 GMT
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland

In article <1992Aug18.140803.17224@CERIS.Purdue.EDU> jheath@fieldofdreams.npirs.purdue.edu (Jim Heath) writes:

#BTW, does anyone know how explosive cannon balls (or modern
#cannon shells for that matter) worked?  It doesn't seem like they
#could have run the fuse throught the touch hole and achieved any
#speed.  Did they load the fuse against the powder charge and hope
#for the best? 

The last method you describe was used when exploding artillery ammo
was a young invention. Of course today's grenades explode when they
impact something or have a sophisticated timing system.

The impact initiation is rather straightforward, except that you need
quite a few different safeties built in. For instance those shells
I've shot in the army can't (or shouldn't :-) explode
a) before you remove the transport safety
b) before the initial acceleration
c) before it had travelled at least 60 meters from the muzzle
d) (this wasn't the case with every type of ammo, especially of course
those used for direct fire) before the grenade had passed the highest
point of its trajectory
All these (except possibly d) were used simultaneously.

The modern timed shells have a clock device that can be set with a
special tool and it starts running when the cannon fires (it senses
the acceleration). The mechanical clock device can be replaced with a
fuse that also is lit at the time of acceleration, but those are much
more inaccurate. The mechanical devices can be set so accurately that
you can make the grenade explode just above your intended target. I
have done this when I was in the army, and the timing differences
between shells were so small that they all exploded within a few 
meters of the intended point. The flight times were something like 20
seconds and we were shooting a target from about 5 kilometers (rather
high trajectory). The weapons used were Russian 122 mm howitzers and
Finnish 155 mm guns.

	Mika
From: pauly@netcom.com (Paul Yoshimune)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Dropping slide on empty chamber
Date: 21 Aug 92 03:36:25 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)

In article <1992Aug19.052052.20459@sserve.cc.adfa.oz.au> ghm@ccadfa.cc.adfa.oz.au (Geoff Miller) writes:

#You know, it's not difficult to imagine a feeding malfunction in which the
#top round is stuck slightly low in the magazine or the magazine is not
#fully inserted.  When you press the slide release lever the slide will
#slam forward and fail to pick up a round.  In other words, this sequence
#can happen accidentally as well as deliberately.  Now, if Bill Wilson is

Well, when you don't have the magazine fully inserted, and the slide jams on
a round, there isn't the same amount of force when the slide stops, since the
recoil spring doesn't have a chance to get the slide's momentum up.  Not only
that, but when using lead bullets, the lead definitely soaks up some of the
shock when it gets stuck on the feed ramp.

Aside from all this, Bill Wilson recommends that when dropping the slide, you
have the trigger pulled back.  If you follow this advice, it doesn't matter
if the round jams or fails to get pulled out of the magazine, since the sear
is protected either way.  And, if the gun jams on the second round due to an
improperly seated magazine, the trigger will still be pulled back from the
first shot.

I'm not saying I agree with everything Bill Wilson says, or regard him with
god-like status; I was just stating what one very reputable gunsmith had to
say about such things.

-- 
DVC,
  Paul

Paul Yoshimune
pauly@netcom.com
From: smrtstr!syspb@uu.psi.com (Paul)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: 9mm +P ammo
Date: 19 Aug 92 12:39:21 GMT
Organization: SmartStar Corp. / Signal Technolgy Inc.

What the heck is a 9mm +P load?  I read some posts where people mention
it, but my reloading manual doesn't mention it.  I've never seen any
9mm +P ammo in the store either.  I have seen 38 special +P ammo before.
The maximum working pressure for the 9mm is 35,000 CUP.  Does this mean
that the 9mm +P load excedes this limit?  

On a different subject, it seems like every time a new reloading manual
comes out, the maximum powder loads get lower for the 9mm.  An older
Speer manual says you can use 10.2 gr of Blue Dot with a 100gr HP bullet.
A newer manual says that the maximum is 9.7 gr.  I've noticed this with
other manuals too.  Would this 100 gr HP bullet be considered a +P load?
These manuals probably are lowering the values for safety and liability
reasons.  I've asked gunsmiths about reloading, and most of them won't
even talk about it.  I guess they don't want to get sued by giving bad
advice.  The publishers of the manuals probably feel the same way.

I talked to one guy who has a 44 magnum.  He said he reloads his bullets
with 50% more powder than the maximum load.  After 2 or 3 firings, the
cases split in half, but the gun works fine.  I wouldn't want to shoot
one of these bullets, or even stand next to this guy at the range.  The
point is that it is possible.  Every reloading manual probably says that
he is wrong, but it does work.  Kids, don't try this at home.
From: bbx!bbxrbk!russ@unmvax.cs.unm.edu (Russ Kepler)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Book research: Bullets in water.
Date: 12 Aug 92 23:34:14 GMT
Organization: /etc/organization

In article <1992Aug11.182506.13414@news.yale.edu> swatt%mickey@net.yale.edu (Alan Watt) writes:
#
#In article <168slmINNbjt@agate.berkeley.edu>, fcrary%ocf.Berkeley.EDU@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (Frank Crary) writes:
#|> In article <1992Aug11.115737.15551@dxcern.cern.ch> mcmanus@dxcern.cern.ch (Leo McManus) writes:
#|> #My hero is being shot at from about 200-300 Meters with an SLR .76 caliber.
#|> #I need to know how far he must dive if he is to be anywhere near safe.
#|> 
#|> Not too far, I think: Fighter pilots during the Second World War (on
#|> both sides...) had a nasty habit of strafing any downed enemy pilots that
#|> they saw in the ocean. Alot of people survived this sort of thing by diving
#|> down a few meters.
#
#
#There is an interesting chapter on this subject in the "NRA Firearms Facts"
#booklet.  Since my copy is at home, I can't post a summary until tonight or
#tomorrow.  As I recall, controlled tests were done for both handguns and
#rifles.

I checked the reference and it basically says that a .50BMG fired
vertically will not penetrate a 1" (2.5cm) soft pine board past 5'
(1.6m) deep; a .30 caliber AP round wouldn't penetrate the board after
1' (.3m) of water.  One problem in the original story is that a bullet
fired horizontally (as must be the case from 200m away) isn't likely
to penetrate the water but instead to richochet away.  If the shooter
is using hollowpoints or softnose bullets it's likely that the bullet
would expand or fragment on impact with the water and have no
significant penetration beyone the surface.

What the heck is a SLR .76 caliber?  I suspect that this should be
something more like 7.6mm or 7.62mm.  I've no idea what SLR might
refer to...
-- 
.signature: not found.  Create?
From: lklawson@acs.harding.edu
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: .357 vs 9mm and Revolvers vs Semi-autos  (was: 1st gun= .22? )
Date: 21 Aug 92 23:10:12 GMT
Organization: Harding University

In article <1992Aug21.110314.7968@nntp.hut.fi>, r36110m@kaira.hut.fi (Mika Matti Jalava) writes:
#In article <1992Aug20.160835.24187@ttinews.tti.com> reid@metis.tti.com (Reid Kneeland) writes:
#
#The recoil is a problem only AFTER the gun fires, if
#even then. There are much harder things to keep in hands than guns and
#you usually survive.

This is true, however, in cases of self defence, one generally is not content
to mearly put ONE round into the antagonist (Shoot the SOB until the gun clicks
empty).  There is a lot of hype about one-shot-stops between different
calibers, however, in this case, "If a little is good, a lot is better." I
intend to find the fourteen-shot-stop ratio if my life is in danger.  Anyway, I
digress.  The recoil will partialy determine how many shots I can pump into a
target in X amount of time with reasonable accuracy.  The time it takes to
reaquire the target after the shot is the primary concern with recoil.

"If every one hates war so much, how come we have so damn many of them?"
-Antares Dawn
Kirk Lawson
LKLAWSON@ACS.HARDING.EDU
From: Sproul@sproul.sproul.com (Mark Sproul)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: lost or stolen during flight!
Date: 19 Aug 92 12:39:06 GMT
Organization: Sproul Consulting


 
Sorry to hear about your "lost" gun.  We both know that some baggage
handler either has a new toy or has some more green stuff in his pocket.
I have been very concerned about traviling with guns on airlines as
I am flying out Saturday to the NRA ranges in Raton NM.  I have a
couple of questions.

Did you declare the gun in your luggage?

If so, did they put a big sticker on the luggage saying 
"UNLOADED FIREARM (steal me)"?

If you did not declare it, what happened when you told them that there
was a firearm in the bag?

I am going to Raton to shoot in the international Palma Rifle Match.
I looked into taking the rifle on the plane but I found out that it
would cost $120.00 for the needed extra insurance ($2000.00) plus
$45.00 becuase it would have put me over the 3 bag limit (they charge
45 per bag over three checked bags).

What I ended up doing was shipping the gun UPS second day with insurance
for a total of $54.00.

Also, 4 years ago when the Palma match was held in Australia, a freind
of mine went.  His rifle never made it home.  It got stollen in Hawaii
on his return trip (at least ways he got to shot in the match).  A
couple of years later he found out that they had broken up a multi-million
dollor theft ring in the Hawaiian airport.

I am interested in other peoples comments and experiances.

-------------------------------------
Mark Sproul - KB2ICI
From: ggawron@comm.mot.com (Glenn Gawron)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: What EXACTLY does +P and +P+ mean?
Date: 21 Aug 92 18:01:59 GMT
Organization: Motorola CSE

Any clarification would be greatly appreciated!
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Glenn Gawron                          | Internet: ggawron@comm.mot.com|
|Motorola Central Systems Engineering  |    X.400: C10836@email.mot.com|
|1301 E. Algonquin Road - IL02 Rm 0436 |    Voice: (708) 538-3756      |
|Schaumburg, Illinois. 60196 USA       |      Fax: (708) 576-5640      |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
From: hollombe@polymath.tti.com (The Polymath)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: (null)
Date: 17 Aug 92 22:33:57 GMT
Organization: The Cat Factory

In article <m0mIOC9-0001VsC@aus.hf.intel.com> qui@aus.hf.intel.com (qui hoang) writes:
}On the ammo question, can I use the IMI +P Carbine load in the P7 or Sig 228 ?
}My Glock 19 loves hot loads, but I don't know about the Sig alloy frame, or the
}P7 gas-delayed blow-back action.

According to SIGARMS, the SIGs can handle 9mm +p IFF it's loaded within
SAAMI specs.  Apparently, not all +p loads are.  The only way to find out
is to check with the individual manufacturer.

The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe, M.A., CDP, aka: hollombe@polymath.tti.com)
Head Robot Wrangler at Citicorp                   Turn the rascals out!
3100 Ocean Park Blvd.   (310) 450-9111, x2483     No incumbents in '92!
Santa Monica, CA  90405