From: adolphso@mizar.usc.edu (adolphson)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Redefining masculinity
Date: 27 Aug 1992 17:40:53 -0700
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: mizar.usc.edu

In article <vanyel.714956556@camelot> 
vanyel@camelot.bradley.edu (Alan Williams) writes:
> In <1992Aug27.193239.13588@microsoft.com> 
> bobsarv@microsoft.com (Bob "Billie Burke" Sarver) writes:
>
> >Further proof that gay groupthink is alive and well on soc.motss comes
> >from Arne (who else?):

Gay groupthink?  Don't you mean fem. gay groupthink, Billie?

[...]
> >(orr)
> >> In fact, we have a group in Grand Rapids that is supportive in nature
> >> for gays in their teens.  One of the rules, however, is that you cannot
> >> refer to each other using feminine pronouns.  I like that a lot.

I'm still tickled by that "supportive in nature".

> >(adolphso)
> >/Overheard at the Grand Rapids supportive in nature gay teen group:
> >/"Did you see Sarah today?"
> >/"He's *soooo* fine.  So why does he hang around with
> >/ that asshole Melissa?"
> >/"I *hate* Melissa -- he thinks he's such hot shit."
>
> This one's to Arne: What's the problem?  Worried because some of us don't
> do the genderfuck thing?  8-)

What?  

A "supportive in nature" group for Grand Rapids gays in their 
teens outlaws the use of feminine pronouns.  One imagines
there are a few female gay teens in Grand Rapids who might
like to refer to each other with feminine pronouns.  And what 
does "the genderfuck thing" have to do with anything?

> Personally, I *hate* using female terms to refer to males.  *Hate* it.  And
> I think it's considerably insulting to have someone ue them on me.

If you hate using female terms to refer to males so much, there's
a simple solution: don't do it.  And I wonder why you're so insulted
when someone uses them in reference to you.

[...]
> >Orr didn't say that he thought *you* should follow the Grand Rapids 
> >example; he merely stated that *he* liked it.
>
> Makes sense to me.  Seems like half the gays I've met who do this genderfuck
> stuff have more trouble with their gender identities than with their sexual
> orientation--as if treating the other males like women makes everything
> better.

Heavens.  Do you even know what genderfuck is?  

I'm amused that you would think that by using feminine pronouns
about men, one is treating them as if they were women. (And why do
I get the feeling that you think being treated like a woman is
a Bad Thing?)  Some male friends of mine refer to me and each other
almost exclusively with feminine pronouns.  They most certainly
do not have trouble with their gender identities, if by that you
mean to suggest they might think they're women trapped in men's
bodies.  Nor do they have problems with their sexual orientation.
They call me Arne Ann and Girleen and girlfriend out of affection
more than anything else.  That, in any case, is what's behind my 
calling them Miss Farmer, Miss Papain, etc.

[...]
> >Seems like you now want to dictate what other people like, even when
> >they aren't recommending the same thing for you.
>
> Hold it; time out.  Maybe Arne's joking here.  (I *hope* Arne's joking
> here....)

No, I'm not.

> >Could it be you are all just a bunch of hypocrites who preach tolerance
> >but actively silence or ridicule anyone who disagrees with you?
>
> Could it be that Bob Sarver has no sense of humor?  NNNNNNOOOOOOO!!!!
> 8-)

Could it be that Alan Williams doesn't have a clue?

Arne


Newsgroups: soc.motss