HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Fri, 16 Oct 1992 12:53:55 -0400
From:         "(William E. Aitken)" <aitken@CS.CORNELL.EDU>
Subject:      Re: English translation
              15 Oct 92 23:15:50 +0000.
              <9210160733.AA19772@cloyd.cs.cornell.edu>

In article <9210151411.AA17698@adagio.austin.ibm.com> sdl@austin.ibm.com
writes:
>I've heard that in this new translation the creed will be changed from
>"for us men and for our salvation" to "for us and for our slavation"
>and "became man" to "became fully human" (I'm not entirely sure about
>the second one).
>
>Has anyone else heard this?
	I'd heard that the second one was a change from ``became man''
to ``became human.''
>
>No, but given the current sorry state of Roman Catholic theology, I
>wouldn't be surprised.  I guess the political correctness Nazis are
>at work even within our faith.
>Just for the record, the pertinent phrases (from the Latin):
>
>1) "Qui propter nos homines, et propter nostram salutem descendit de
>caelis."
>
>2) "...Et incarnatus est de Spiritu Sancto ex Maria Virgine: ET HOMO
>FACTUS EST."

	Seems to me that if the second change is the one that I have
heard, then we are correcting what has become a mistranslation.  The
simple fact is that ``man'' is no longer a good translation for the
word homo.  This isn't a matter of PCness, it's simply a matter of
watching the way English has evolved and ensuring that the vernacular
is really being used.  The first change is more problematic.  ``For us
men'' suggests that Christ only came for males.  ``For us humans''
sounds funny, although I suppose I could get used to it.  ``For us''
seems to skip something that might be important: perhaps an emphasis
of the contrast between Christ's prior Godhood and our humanity?
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: dweinste@nyx.cs.du.edu (David Hills Weinstein)
Subject: Re: Turning the Other Cheek
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 92 15:43:41 GMT

In article <00961AFA.3C5BE540.14328@swdev.si.com> tillman@SWDEV.SI.COM (Brian Tillman, Smiths Industries, VAX Support, x8425) writes:
#Last week, my 15 year-old daughter came home from school and told us how her
#social studies class laughed at her.  The teacher had been talking about Saddam
#Hussein and that she felt that the U.S. hadn't gone far enough in the Gulf war.
#One of the students said we should have assassinated Hussein.  The teacher said
#that might have been a good idea, but my daughter said no.  When asked why not,
#she said, it was immoral.  The class broke out in laughter.  The teacher, after
#a while, told the class to settle down, but never said my daughter was right.

Perhaps I'm missing something, but it seems hard to rule out assasination as
immoral if you allow the possibility of a "Just War". 

Assuming, for the sake of argument, that the Gulf War were to be determined
as "Just", then how is it less moral to kill one or a handful of men in the 
fovernment responsible then to conduct a war which leaves tens of thousands
of military personnel dead, and kills or injures hundreds of thousands of
innocent civilians?

--Dave

--
Dave Weinstein                               Internet: dweinste@nyx.cs.du.edu
Disclaimer: You must be kidding.             GEnie: OLORIN
In the beginning, there was nothing. And God said, "Let there be light."
And there was still nothing. But you could see it.
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Mon, 12 Oct 1992 15:14:44 -0500
From:         Tim Rolfe <rolfe@DSUVAX.DSU.EDU>
Subject:      Sinful alcohol <was Re: Peer pressure and grape juice>

In <MAILQUEUE-101.921012113703.288@suzy.law.ucla.edu> FRANK@125LAW1.LAW.UCLA.EDU
 writes:

>    Actually it is an old Protestant idea.  I have many protestant
>friends who have had it ingrained in to them that having alcohol
>is as great a sin as murder.

The reminds me of a marvelous joke that went past in the newsgroup
rec.humor.funny a while ago --- since it's been cleaned out, I'll have to
paraphrase from memory and can't give proper credit:

A man was talking with a minister at a reception when their hostess came up
with a tray with glasses of punch.  She told them that the glasses on one
side had the non-alcoholic punch while those on the other had the punch
with a punch.  As the man picked up a glass of alcoholic punch the minister
said "I would rather commit adultery than allow alcohol to pass my lips.";
so he put the glass back quickly, saying "I didn't know that was an option
here."
--
                                              --- Tim Rolfe
                                           rolfe@dsuvax.dsu.edu
                                            ROLFE@SDNET.BITNET
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: lang@cs.tulane.edu (Raymond Lang)
Subject: religious freedom (was: Fatima: warning or prediction)
Organization: Computer Science Dept., Tulane Univ., New Orleans, LA
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1992 22:27:35 GMT
Nntp-Posting-Host-[nntpd-23024]: okeanos

In article <STEVEV.92Oct10211222@miser.uoregon.edu> stevev@miser.uoregon.edu (Steve VanDevender) writes:
>In article <Bvo54G.8t2@news.cso.uiuc.edu>
>pol30546@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Peder Larsen) writes:
>
>   >There are much more important issues to think about than what's
>   >going to happen to all those people who happen to have different
>   >religious beliefs than you do.  I would rather see a lot of
>   >people putting their effort into trying to respect other
>   >people's beliefs rather than worrying about how to convert them
>   >to "the truth".
>
>          Oh, I think I understand most of the above post now.  BTW,
>   you're not Christian are you?
>
>You may guess what you wish.  I believe that it is important to
>respect the religious beliefs of others and not to discuss
>religion with people of different beliefs in the tone "I know the
>truth and you don't".

As a matter of fact, the Church teaches us to respect the beliefs of
others and to conduct evangelization in a spirit of charity and
humility rather than one of condescension and patronization.  To anyone
interested in the Church's thoughts on these matters, I recommend
the Declaration on Religious Freedom, the Decree on Ecumenism,
the Declaration on the Relationship of the Church to Non-Christian
Religions, and the Decree of the Church's Missionary Activity, all
among the documents of Vatican II.

"This inner reflection, even if it does not result in an explicit and
positive assertion of faith in God, cannot but be respected in the
name of the dignity of each one's conscience, whose hidden searching
may not by judged by others"

Pope John Paul II, _The_Freedom_of_Conscience_and_Religion_
September 1, 1980

Matthew 7:1-5 pertains to this discussion as well, I think.

Ray Lang
lang@cs.tulane.edu
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Wed, 7 Oct 1992 14:37:00 -0700
From:         "(Gordon C. Zaft)" <zaft@CARITAS.COTDAZR.ORG>
Subject:      Re: Not about women priests

On Oct 6,  5:21pm, "(Bob von Buelow)" wrote:
} Subject: Re: Not about women priests, it's about changing rules
} Exactly.  I think it is this 'nature' business that is the problem.  Is is
} masculine or feminine gender that is part of our nature, or our humanity?  I
} think gender is an accident of DNA and humanity a gift from God and this is
} our 'nature'.  And men and women equally possess that 'nature'.

	Wait a minute.  Are you saying that God created men and women
(different sexes) because he couldn't think of anything better; that
ideally he would have created us genderless?  I don't see any basis
for this.  Gender is not an 'accident of DNA' (or chromosomes, really)
but a fundamental part of who and what we are.
}
} I think God is genderless.  Yet we are all, men and women, made in 'His'
} image and therefore have an aspect, or 'nature', that transcends our physical
} presence.  This aspect is the one that decides for or against God, for or
} against love.  I think women should have an equal chance within all aspects
} of the hierarchical church to express that love.

	Well, you are welcome to your opinion, but that's all it is.

}
} >not everyone in the Kingdom of God can be prophets or healers or teachers.
}
} Ah, but they CAN.  They might not be, but they CAN.  The gifts of the Spirit
} are open to all.

	The Spirit does not give the same gifts to everyone.  The NT is
quite clear on that point.
}-- End of excerpt from "(Bob von Buelow)"



--
* Gordon Zaft     Argus Consulting  4500 E. Sunrise #N-6, Tucson, AZ 85718
* zaft@caritas.cotdazr.org | noao.edu!coyote!caritas!zaft
                 Semper fidelis Christi et Vicarii sui.
As long as the answer is right, who cares if the question is wrong?
Organization: Argus Consulting, Tucson, AZ
X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.4 2/2/92)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Thu, 8 Oct 1992 10:33:15 -0700
From:         "(Gordon C. Zaft)" <zaft@CARITAS.COTDAZR.ORG>
Subject:      praying the rosary

On Oct 7,  1:17pm, noao!catholic@DRAGON.COM wrote:
} Subject: praying the rosary
}
} Besides the standard prayers of the rosary, do any of you add other
} prayers?  After Mass on Saturday we say the "O my Jesus ..." Fatima
} prayer after each decade, and we pray for the Holy Father at the end,
} but we do nothing else.  When I pray privately, I say a decade prayer
} Mary requested at Conyers:
}
} 	"God our Father, please send us holy priests, all for the
} 	 Sacred and Eucharist Heart of Jesus, all for the Sorrowful
} 	 and Immaculate Heart of Mary, in union with Saint Joseph."
}
} I know there must be other traditional prayers or methods of praying.
}-- End of excerpt from noao!catholic@DRAGON.COM

Well, in the group I used to be in back in CA, we would say the
Fatima prayer after each decade along with an invocation (is that
the right word) of the BVM, e.g., "Our Lady of Guadalupe, pray for us"
(we would use a different one after each decade).  At the end we would
say the Hail Holy Queen, the St. Michael prayer (sometimes), the litany
to the Sacred Heart ("Most Sacred Heart of Jesus, have mercy on us" 3 times,
followed by "Holy and Immaculate Heart of Mary, pray for us"), the "
O God, whose Only Begotten Son, by His life, death, and resurrection...",
followed by a an Our Father, Hail Mary and Glory Be for the intentions
of the Holy Father.

	Hope this helps.

GZ

--
* Gordon Zaft     Argus Consulting  4500 E. Sunrise #N-6, Tucson, AZ 85718
* zaft@caritas.cotdazr.org | noao.edu!coyote!caritas!zaft
                 Semper fidelis Christi et Vicarii sui.
Admiration: Our polite recognition of another's resemblance to ourselves.
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Via: uk.ac.lancashire-poly.prime1; Thu, 15 Oct 1992 16:16:22 +0100
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Thu, 15 Oct 1992 16:11:12 LCL
From:         Becka <SUTTON_R_1@PRIME1.LANCASHIRE-POLY.AC.UK>
Subject:      Fatima/Medjugorje

(From Becka Sutton   )

Elizabeth,
I tried to post this to you privately but it got reflected back at me.
Could you please post me a complete list of your sources for the Fatima/
Megjugorje postings?  I need them for some research I am doing for a Catholic
discussion group.
Thank you,
God bless,
Rebecca
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: pvisel@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Patrick E Visel)
Subject: Re: women priests (yet again)
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 18:14:39 GMT

In article <edjans01.718305667@starbase.spd.louisville.edu> edjans01@orion.spd.louisville.edu (David Jansing) writes:

>
>Huh.  Funny.  At one time (April 12, 1633) the church began a series of hearings
>against a man who stood against something that the Church put its foot down
>on.  Precisely, the issue of Heliocentricity and its famous professor Galileo,
>were silenced by the Church.  The Church had official teachings that were 
>considered sacred regarding Terra being the center of the Universe.  It's
>impossible, the Church shouted!  We are the most important in the whole of
>Creation, therefore the Universe must be centered around us!  Today, we all
>know that Galileo was right and the Church was wrong.

One of the running problems in History is that after it has been used in
 polemics for several centuries,  the facts of the matter get obscured. 
Galileo was condemned for trying to base the Heliocentric theory on Scriptures.
  The problem was Galileo believed the earth circled the sun (and I emphasize
circled). Since the planets actually follow elliptical paths and since 
goodl astronomers had pretty good observational data, Galileo could not find
 any empirical evidence to support himself.  When Johannes Keppler tried to
 solve the same problem later, he trusted Tycho Brahe's observations and
threw out the idea of the perfect circle.  Galileo was the last medieval man,
not the first modern one.  The funny thing is (in a sick sort of way) Keppler
 got in the same sort of trouble amongst the Calvinists, but you never hear
about that.
                                               Patrick Visel
                                               pvisel@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
From: tas@PEGASUS.COM ((Len Howard))
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Re: Loving
Date: 15 Oct 92 09:12:59 GMT
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              14,  2:07pm)

Gordon,  In our congregation there is a couple who have been together
for the past 17 years.  One is a quadraplegic, but despite this takes
an active part in the church activities, is on the vestry, the music
foundation board, and is in church every Sunday, having the wheelchair
pushed into place by the partner.  The other partner is a vested Lay
Reader, also serves on the vestry, Diocesan Council, and has taken
care of his partner after an auto accident caused the quadriplegia the
first year they were together. If the Love of God is not manifest by
this relationship between two men, then it is not manifest anywhere.
Let he who has eyes see..............
Shalom,                             Len Howard
                                    tas@pegasus.com
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Tue, 13 Oct 1992 09:26:00 HST
From:         "(Len Howard)" <tas@PEGASUS.COM>
Subject:      Re: Anglican Church Question...
              Anglican Church Question..." (Oct 12,  9:57pm)

Ed, right now I would characterize these attempts at reform from
outside the organization as a fringe response.  As far as I know, no
parish who said they were interested in joining the Non-geographic
Episcopal Synod of America has done the essential act.  That essential
act is to return their land and church to their Diocese, and build
another one that does not belong to the Episcopal Church of The United
States.  That seems to separate the action from the rhetoric.

Shalom,                           Len Howard
                                  tas@pegasus.com
From: elendil@mintir.new-orleans.la.us (Edward J. Branley)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Re: English translation
Date: 16 Oct 92 03:11:53 GMT
Organization: Minas Tirith BBS (Public Access Usenet for New Orleans)

mayo@CS.UTK.EDU writes:

> According to the loving, orthodox, Catholic-through-and-through pastor of
> Sacred Heart Cathedral in Knoxville, Tennessee, the change at the end of
> the readings is partially to end confusion.  He says that often the reader
> holds up the book after the reading, and the people think the phrase,
> "This is the Word of the Lord" refers to the book itself rather than the
> proclaimed Word.  This man is a holy priest and I trust him.  Nonetheless,
> I would prefer that the reader stop holding up the book and leave the words
> alone.
>

Before I got married, I was a lector for about 5 years.  In all that time, I
*never* lifted the lectionary from its stand at the conclusion.  I always felt
that holding up the book was a bit too theatrical, and would lead to the
confusion you've described.  One priest in the parish agreed, the other would
raise the book and hold it up very dramatically after the Gospel.  I don't know
where he got it from, but this particular priest (a good family friend, btw)
has always had a flair for the dramatic.  As a deacon, he would make an
elaborate point of asking the celebrant for a blessing before proclaiming the
Gospel.  The possibility of confusion didn't bother him at all.  I have to
admit that the ritual of asking for a special blessing (after his ordination,
he continued to take his time going to the pulpit for the Gospel) did a lot to
focus attention on the spoken Word.




|Edward J. Branley         elendil@mintir.new-orleans.la.us|
|Seashell Software, Metairie, LA            +1-504-455-5087|
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: topcat@hardy.u.washington.edu (Thanh - Vincent)
Subject: Re:      praying the rosary
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 07:09:09 GMT


there is a good book "the secret of the rosary"
by st. louis de montfort

it gives reasons why you should pray the rosary
shows how powerful it is, with accounts from saints' lives
and how to pray the rosary

i thought it was a very moving book
if you pray the rosary now, you will probably pray the rosary
more faithfully if you read this book.

it's pretty cheap, around $2.95 or so, paper back cover

vince
From: zaft@CARITAS.COTDAZR.ORG ((Gordon C. Zaft))
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Re: Loving
Date: 14 Oct 92 21:07:25 GMT
Organization: Argus Consulting, Tucson, AZ
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On Oct 13,  4:44pm, Amanda Walker wrote:
} Subject: Loving
}
} I don't think anyone here would disagree that the primary thing that the Lord
} asks of us is to love God and love one another.  This is, at a fundamental
} level, a very difficult concept.   Loving people is difficult.  Love is not
} some abstract expression of pity, or sympathy.  Love is accepting and helping
} someone else, "warts and all," as the saying goes.  It means not condemning
} lepers (or people with AIDS).  It is a gift.  It is risky--sometimes
} profoundly so.  It means learning to see Christ in places where you wouldn't
} have expected to before.  For some, this means seeing the love of God in gay
} or lesbian relationships.  For others, it means seeing it in the hearts of
}-- End of excerpt from Amanda Walker

	While I agreed with the rest of Amanda's well-written (as usual)
post, I really have to disagree with "seeing the love of God in gay
or lesbian relationships". While I certainly am called to see Christ in
all, including homosexuals, I am certainly NOT called to see the love
of God in gay or lesbian relationships.  There's a big difference.

GZ

--
* Gordon Zaft     Argus Consulting  4500 E. Sunrise #N-6, Tucson, AZ 85718
* zaft@caritas.cotdazr.org | noao.edu!coyote!caritas!zaft
                 Semper fidelis Christi et Vicarii sui.
Sin has many tools, but a lie is the handle which fits them all.
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Thu, 8 Oct 1992 09:07:22 -0400
From:         mayo@CS.UTK.EDU
Subject:      Re: praying the rosary

(Thanh - Vincent)" <topcat@HARDY.U.WASHINGTON.EDU> writes:

>  there is a good book "the secret of the rosary"
>  by st. louis de montfort
>  it gives reasons why you should pray the rosary
>  shows how powerful it is, with accounts from saints' lives
>  and how to pray the rosary
>  i thought it was a very moving book
>  if you pray the rosary now, you will probably pray the rosary
>  more faithfully if you read this book.
>  it's pretty cheap, around $2.95 or so, paper back cover

I have 50 or so of these books. I will be glad to mail anyone a copy
who wants it for free.  If there are more than 50 requests, I can get
more.  In quantity they are only $.35 plus a bit of postage.  If you
want a few extras for friends, I will be glad to send them.  Private
e-mail would be best since this does not involve the entire list.

Jane Wallace Mayo		| Jesus, Redeemer, have mercy on me
mayo@cs.utk.edu			|    and set me free.
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Return-Path: cts@dragon.COM
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Thu, 15 Oct 1992 19:16:09 EDT
From:         "Charles T. Smith, Jr." <cts@DRAGON.COM>
Subject:      Re: Anglican Church Question...

>Ed, right now I would characterize these attempts at reform from
>outside the organization as a fringe response.  As far as I know, no
>parish who said they were interested in joining the Non-geographic
>Episcopal Synod of America has done the essential act.  That essential
>act is to return their land and church to their Diocese, and build
>another one that does not belong to the Episcopal Church of The United
>States.  That seems to separate the action from the rhetoric.
>
>Shalom,                           Len Howard
>                                  tas@pegasus.com

There was a church in the atlanta area which left the Episcopal Church.
I recall there was some hard feelings over the Church property being
held by the bishop;  I believe they wanted the title to the property;
the bishop refused, and they left anyway.

I've also heard that a couple other churches in the area have brought into
question the ownership of the property, and at least in a couple groups,
movements are afoot to give the vestry and local folk more input.

Again, this is all from vague memory of something that happened a year
or two ago.

  Charles Smith
  cts@dragon.com
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Thu, 8 Oct 1992 08:20:27 PDT
From:         "(Bil Snodgrass)" <snodgras@LCLARK.EDU>
Subject:      List

Please put me on your mailing list!@
Thanks Bil Snodgrass III.
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Fri, 16 Oct 1992 13:44:00 EDT
From:         lcuxlp!lhh@ATT.ATT.COM
Subject:      Re: Some questions

>
>Len Horn:
>>
>> PS
>> Want to start a chain of outrageous things said at RCIA :-) ?
>> A free sessions ago, a facilitator stated that
>> the CIA had Thomas Merton assassinated because he was on the
>> verge of uniting Catholicism and Buddhism. The statement, of course,
>> went unchallenged.
>>
>
> [ Ryszard Jan Nipl asks ... ]
>Hi Len, I am very interested in the last assertion about Thomas
>Merton. Wouldn't you give some more details about it? Do you know
>what he had meant?
>

	Thats about all that this guy said on the untimely death of Merton.

	I notice that you are from Sweden.
	Here in the USA there are  "conspiracy theories"
	to explain every untimely death.
	Its almost always the CIA (sometimes with help from the Mafie).
	It always amazes me that otherwise intelligent
	people believe this crap.

			Len Horn
From: 91babik@gw.wmich.edu (Lisamarie Gemma Babik)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Women Popes!?! (History Question)
Date: 13 Oct 92 17:09:29 EST
Organization: Western Michigan University

I just had someone tell me that there have been 3 women popes through 
history.  In my book, this couldn't ever happen because popes are first 
priests (and Bishops and Cardinals et al), and women are not ordained
by the Catholic church.

Was I wrong?  Have I somewhere along the line missed something?  I have
asked her to get back to me with more details, but she hasn't yet.  We
there, in fact, 3 women popes???

-- 
_______________________________________________________________________________

                 "Faith is to believe what we do not see,
         and the reward of this faith is to see what we believe..."
			       St. Augustine

__________________Lisamarie Gemma Babik__91babik@gw.wmich.edu__________________