HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: djohnson@cayley.waterloo.edu (David Johnson)
Subject: Re: Value of Stats
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 15:29:22 GMT

In article <1992Jul20.192241.10038@adobe.com> snichols@adobe.com (Sherri Nichols) writes:
>In article <Brp97A.Drx@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu> djohnson@cayley.waterloo.edu (David Johnson) writes:

>>to because he thought he was too good to bunt.  Winfield would do anything
>>the manager asks because he respects the manager and his decisions.
>
>That's not the perception he had in New York.

But in New York the management also critisized him for his play.  I recall
him being referred to as MR. MAY be New York management.  This is probably
the worst thing a player can encounter (Having management critisize you).
How can a player respect management when management doesn't respect him.
This year Winfield bunt, steals, Dh's plays outfield and even sits out
when the manager asks and he hasn't complained once.

>
>Sherri Nichols
>snichols@adobe.com
>
From: paul@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Paul R Krueger)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: MLB Standings and Scores for Mon, Jul 27th, 1992
Date: 30 Jul 92 17:27:16 GMT
Organization: Computing Services Division, University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee

>>>>
>>>>And, no I don't want to start a big diccussion about it, but stats are
>>>>overrated! 
>>>>
>>>
>>>I agree with your last statement 100%!  The most overrated one of them all
>>>is the W-L stat...
>>>
>>  Yet in my mind, the most important...
>>
>W-L is the most important stat for the team (in some contexts, the only
>important one).  For pitchers, it is extremely overrated.
>
>If you want a little perspective, find an Elias analyst and look at the
>team articles.  They provide W-L records for games that each player started
>at each position.  Last year, for example, the Twins went 20-15 in games
>where Morris started as pitcher, and 40-21 on games where Shane Mack
>started in right field.  By this line of reasoning, Shane Mack was far
>better at winning as a right fielder than Morris was as a pitcher, and with
>a much larger sample size to boot.
>
>Should the newspaper listings for the Twins have listed the starting
>right fielder rather than the starting pitcher?  Should we call Mack a
>winning right fielder just like some people are calling Jack Morris a
>winning pitcher?  If not, why not?  We are proceeding from the same
>reasoning, W-L records when players start.  You can argue that the pitcher
>has more influence on the game than the right fielder, but if you
>discount all the pitcher's other stats (ERA, H/9, W/9, K/9, etc.)
>you discount the primary ways the pitcher can influence the game, so
>that argument is of no avail.
>
>David Thornley
>"When a pitching coach thinks more of himself than the team, and in all
>his actions seeks his own profit, such a man will never be a good pitching
>coach" - Niccolo Machiavelli
>
 Okay, I'll submit.

 MORRIS IS LUCKY!!!!
 HE'S LUCKY!!! HE'S LUCKY!!! HE'S LUCKY!!!

 I guess the old adage, it's better to be lucky than good sure is true
 since he's been around so long, won so many games and makes SOOOOOOOOO
 much (more than he deserves) money!
  
  I guess that's why so many teams want guys like him and Hendu. Because
  they're so darn lucky.

  --Salty

  p.s. All this talk makes me want to go buy a rabbitt's foot and bury
  it under home plate at good ole Country Stadium.

>
>
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: eebonar@sn01.sncc.lsu.edu (Dave Bonar)
Subject: Re: Simulation Games
Nntp-Posting-Host-[nntpd-24546]: sn01.sncc.lsu.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.3-4   
Reply-To: eebonar@sn01.sncc.lsu.edu
Organization: News and Views from LSU
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 13:35:42 GMT

In article <1992Jul23.230211.14263@leland.Stanford.EDU>, claudius@leland.Stanford.EDU (Nelson Lu) writes...
>In article <1992Jul23.194516.10444@bnr.ca> heilig@crchh120.NoSubdomain.NoDomain (Timothy Heilig) writes:
>>In article <1992Jul22.231327.24337@leland.Stanford.EDU>, claudius@leland.Stanford.EDU (Nelson Lu) writes:
>>|> In article <QePOu0i00Uh7M1JNxs@andrew.cmu.edu> Todd Harris Fletcher <tf0y+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
> 
>>|> 2.	A better system of relief pitching.
>>|> 
>>
>>Please elaborate, I don't see much of a difference.
> 
>Strat, by giving only a numeric rating for relief fatigue, allows somewhat
>absurd usages like pitching 5 innings in relief the game after you pitch 4
>innings.  Also, there is *no* way to pitch three consecutive games in Strat,
>but it happens all the time.  PTP is not perfect here either (the "Closer"
>fatigue rating they came out with this year is absurd) but is better.

	Since I haven't played PTP and have not played Strat in about two
years; what are the relief pitching rules in both?

	In one league I was in we used a house rule that seemed to work
fairly well.  Each reliever could pitch two days in a row.  Then he could
either pitch the next game and be forced to rest two days or he could rest 
one day and be fully rested (obviously, pitching one day and resting the
next left you fully rested).  If a player became tired or pitched two innings
more then his number, he automatically had to rest the next two games.

	It wasn't the most realistic rule but it gave decent results.  The
numbers looked ok at seasons end (IP and such).

>>|> 3.	Cards that are easy to read.
> 
>>Here I completely disagree, SOM cards are MUCH easier to read as far as evaluating
>>quickly.  Some SOM players have played years without counting "chances" on the
>>cards, I couldn't go a month without counting the chances on PTP cards, because
>>it's the only way to evaluate the card (95% of the cards look essentially the same 
>>at a glance.
> 
>That's because, IMO, it is possible to count chances off PTP cards.  Strat
>cards are difficult to evaluate, and it would take a calculator to do some
>real evaluation.  "Quick" evaluation of Strat cards can create a lot of
>unplesant surprises.

	I have to agree that Strat cards are a sinch to read.  It takes 
about 30 seconds to add up a card (advanced side but ignoring ball park
homers and singles).  The number isn't perfect but is all you really need
when combined with a glance at the power numbers (an exact count is nice but
not needed) and the ball park HR chances.

Dave
__________
Dave Bonar
eebonar@lsuvax.sncc.lsu.edu
__________
From: curve@netcom.com (My Name is Your Fate)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: RC/27 for SS'
Date: 29 Jul 92 01:10:36 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)


How did Bordick get onto both the 2B and SS lists?  Well, ok, I think I
know how (at least 1/3 games at that position), but he should be moved
off of SS and weiss put in his place, no?

Also, Darren Lewis hasn't been in the majors since the last RC/27
was published, never mind played center field.  Of course, this is the Giants
we're talking about, so it might be tough to find another "regular"
center fielder, but I'm interested in seeing how Snyder stacks up
and this is as good a place as any to put him.



Curve@netcom.com	|  What is the difference between apathy and ignorance?
			|  I don't know, and I don't care!
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: claudius@leland.stanford.edu (Nelson Lu)
Subject: RC/27 for CFs
Organization: DSG, Stanford University
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 92 22:13:54 GMT

NATIONAL LEAGUE
Andy Van Slyke, Pittsburgh	9.46
Deion Sanders, Atlanta		7.61
Brett Butler, Los Angeles	6.67
Ray Lankford, St. Louis		6.53
Lenny Dykstra, Philadelphia	6.45
Reggie Sanders, Cincinnati	6.24
Steve Finley, Houston		5.40
Otis Nixon, Atlanta		5.23
Marquis Grissom, Montreal	5.17
Darrin Jackson, San Diego	4.81
Howard Johnson, New York	4.46
Dave Martinez, Cincinnati	4.10
Sammy Sosa, Chicago		3.71
Doug Dascenzo, Chicago		3.37
Darren Lewis, San Francisco	3.09

AMERICAN LEAGUE
Kirby Puckett, Minnesota	7.83
Ken Griffey, Seattle		7.61
Mike Devereaux, Baltimore	5.60
Juan Gonzalez, Texas		5.48
Roberto Kelly, New York		5.47
Ellis Burks, Boston		5.22
Willie Wilson, Oakland		4.83
Robin Yount, Milwaukee		4.64
Kenny Lofton, Cleveland		4.30
Junior Felix, California	4.22
Devon White, Toronto		4.11
Lance Johnson, Chicago		4.09
Brian McRae, Kansas City	3.41
Milt Cuyler, Detroit		2.94

===============================================================================
GO CALIFORNIA ANGELS!
Committee to Elect Johnny Ray as Angels Second Baseman
Committee to Elect Mike Witt as Angels Ace
Committee to Elect Cookie Rojas as Angels Manager
===============================================================================
Nelson Lu (claudius@leland.stanford.edu)
From: nflynn@wvnvms.wvnet.edu
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Guzman???
Date: 24 Jul 92 21:42:54 GMT
Organization: West Virginia Network for Educational Telecomputing

What is Juan Guzman's status....How serious is his injury?....Is he going
to be put on the DL?  All I know is that he came out of last night's game
with some sort of shoulder trouble.  Please e-mail me if you know more...

Thanks in advance!

					Nick Flynn
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: bharat@cs.uiuc.edu (R. Bharat Rao)
Subject: Cubs stop realignment (at least for now)
Reply-To: bharat@cs.uiuc.edu
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 17:16:42 GMT

A Chicago judge issued an temporary restraining order banning Vincent
from ordering the Cubs to move to the NL West.  The judge agreed with
the Cubs in ruling that Vincent exceeded his authority, and he may not
force the Cubs to move without their consent.

Aside from the fact whether this move would help/hurt the Cubs in the
immediate future, this has got to be quite a setback fro the Commish.

Bharat


Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: olt@sili.isgs.uiuc.edu (Scott Olt)
Subject: Re: Cubs totally finished with Maddux?
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 23:29:37 GMT

bohy6489@iscsvax.uni.edu writes:

>I was "informed" by a friend that Maddux is not that interested in making the
>money, that he really wants to play with a club that can win. 
[...]
>So the Cubs need to either prove to Greg that they *can* win before this trade
>deadline, or try to get something to cover the loss of Maddux.

Maddux had his chance to help his team get into a World Series, but he blew 
it. Check out his line for the 1989 playoffs:

GS     IP     H     K     BB    ERA
-----------------------------------
2     7 1/3   13    5     4   13.50

Who knows what might have happened if he had pitched well...


Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: kuras@aiag.enet.dec.com ()
Subject: Re: Where have all the flakes gone?
Reply-To: kuras@aiag.enet.dec.com ()
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 17:40:26 GMT


The Modern Day Flake lives, but is outshadowed by the high salaries. As a
result, the Flakes don't get the recognition they deserve.  Perhaps some of
today's flakes are regarded as whiners, complainers, babies, overpaid stiffs,
simply because of the salary structure.  Andy Van Slyke, is, imo, a true flake
who is not any of the negatives listed in the previous sentence.  He's had 
some recognition on shows like ESPN & This Week in Baseball, showing some of
his antics on the bench.   

But Flakes don't get the press that they deserve!
From: snichols@adobe.com (Sherri Nichols)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Value of Stats
Date: 29 Jul 92 01:50:45 GMT
Organization: Adobe Systems Incorporated

In article <5195@transfer.stratus.com> jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com writes:
>First of all, looking at this stuff isn't just for prediction. It's
>also for evaluating how a player did in some past season. 

Predictive value is still important.  If the "thing" you're using to
evaluate a player on has *no* predictive value, then how do you know if
it's something the player did, or something completely out of his control? 

>(In fact, I'd say that's how most fans, myself included, use stats.
>I don't look at the stats and use them to try to predict what
>Kirby Puckett or Barry Bonds will do next year--at least not most
>of the time.  I like to look at them to get an idea of how they
>did this year, and last year, and the year before.)
>
>Also, you can predict with some accuracy for most players. Past
>performance is a good indicator most of the time.

For the good stats, this is true.  My problem with the intangible stuff, is
that the perception of the player changes dramatically.  Just like with
catcher defense, another thing that is hard to measure, whether a player is
a good attitude or a bad attitude seems to oscillate based on other
factors.  

Sherri Nichols
snichols@adobe.com
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer)
Subject: Re: Home/road differentials (was ARTIFICIAL TURF: EMBARRASSMENT)
Organization: Cornell Univ. CS Dept, Ithaca NY 14853
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 17:49:02 GMT

In article <9207281716.AA26166@sumac09.cray.com> jjd@TEAK.CRAY.COM (Jeff Drummond) writes:
>
>If we fix Minnesota's away record, then what would their home record
>have be in order for them to have the same differential as Kansas
>City?  It works out to about a .524 home winning percentage.  The
>difference between their .557 home record and a .524 home record is
>about 2.5 wins over the course of an 81-home-game season.  Could be
>a factor in a close division race, but hardly enough to get Abner
>Doubleday to roll over in his grave (maybe twitch a little).

You twist the numbers yet this is the best you can come up with?  A
2.5 win advantage is *quite* significant.  So it won't win you the
division every year.  But it is a considerable advantage.

But you are basing this calculation only on the advantage they hold
over the next closest team.  It makes more sense to compare their
advantage to the average home-field advantage.  And isn't *that* about
a five-game difference?  Five extra wins, every year, from the turf
and the roof.  If that isn't enough to get Doubleday to roll over in
his grave, I don't know what is!

>Mr. Waugaman may have already claimed 2 or 3 games of the allotment
>during Boston's last visit.  The rest of you will have to fight it
>out amongst yourselves for any remaining game(s).

This is even more bullshit than the rest of the post.  Glenn
complained about a few balls.  He did not specify how much it cost the
Sox.  If you think that those 3-4 complaints over the course of three
games constitutes a 2-game swing, that is *your* problem.  Don't blame
it on him.

IMHO, the park cost the Sox about half a game (out of the 5 games per
year total advantage) from that series.  I suspect Glenn Waugaman will
agree with me.

-Valentine
-- 
If Plantier goes, I go!				tedward@cs.cornell.edu
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: paul@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Paul R Krueger)
Subject: Re: MLB Standings and Scores for Mon, Jul 27th, 1992
Organization: Computing Services Division, University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 23:54:54 GMT

In article <1992Jul29.232312.9566@leland.Stanford.EDU> claudius@leland.Stanford.EDU (Nelson Lu) writes:
>In article <1992Jul29.215400.4939@uwm.edu> paul@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Paul R Krueger) writes:
>
>>
>>And, no I don't want to start a big diccussion about it, but stats are
>>overrated! 
>>
>
>I agree with your last statement 100%!  The most overrated one of them all
>is the W-L stat...
>
  Yet in my mind, the most important...

  --Salty

>===============================================================================
>GO CALIFORNIA ANGELS!
>Committee to Elect Johnny Ray as Angels Second Baseman
>Committee to Elect Mike Witt as Angels Ace
>Committee to Elect Cookie Rojas as Angels Manager
>===============================================================================
>Nelson Lu (claudius@leland.stanford.edu)


Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: savoy@hg.uleth.ca (Jim Savoy)
Subject: Re: Shades of Toby Harrah
Reply-To: savoy@hg.uleth.ca
Organization: University of Lethbridge
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1992 20:06:30 GMT


>|>In article <2145@h.cs.wvu.wvnet.edu>, Gerry Hobbs writes:
>|> 
>|>     Does anybody see what Downing's doing? According to McPaper's
>|> weekly stats Brian Downing had 41 walks and 164 at bats. Ignoring
>|> HB, SF,SH and some really rare events, that means he is walking 20% 
>|> of the time. Toby Harrah had a season like that some time ago. It was
>|> followed by a terrible season and the end of his career. 

Do you think Downing reads this stuff anonymously? He's been swinging that
lumber ever since you wrote this. Homers, doubles, singles... Anything but
walks!


 _____________________________________________________________________________
     Jim Savoy          University Of Lethbridge         savoy@hg.uleth.ca

Commander: Have we bombed anywhere? Have we shown 'em we got teeth?
Agent:     Oh yes, sir. We've bombed a lot of places flat, sir.
Commander: Good. Good. We don't want anyone to think we're chicken.
Agent:     Oh no! They don't think that, sir. Everyone's really scared of us.
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: sinhaa@maccs.dcss.mcmaster.ca (Anand Sinha)
Subject: Re: Value of Stats
Organization: Department of Computer Science, McMaster University
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 19:17:40 GMT

In article <Brwo1u.BrB@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu> djohnson@cayley.waterloo.edu (David Johnson) writes:
>>One more thing David...would not Ducey's lawsuit against the Skydome be
>>disruptive? (hmm, too many Dave's here...can we do something about this? :-)
>
>Not if he treated it as a lawsuit against the Skydome only as a lawsuit 
>against the Skydome and didn't bring that into the Clubhouse.

True. How do we know if he did or didn't?  How do we know if that lawsuit is
or is not the reason that Ducey rides the pines so often?

>But maybe the problem with Jimy Williams effected his play.  My point is that
>he should do what the manager asks and if he has a problem with that he should
>talk to higher management about it, not the media as he did.

Hm..Bell's problems with Williams re. the DH certainly did not affect the
start of the '88 season. Game 1, 3HR vs. KC. Game 2, 5/5 (all singles). The
first game in LF, the second game at DH.

Bell really was a "team" player. He did the things that help the team win. 
Unfortunately, he was portrayed badly by the local media, and was perceived
as a poor "team" player.  He was considered a bad influence on the team.  I
am still not sure why though... He was, in 1988 the 3rd best defensive OF
the Jays had, and in '89, until the arrival of Mookie Wilson, he still was.
BTW Wilson's defensive value is questionable at best...
>
>But they did boo him though.

So? What's your point? I boo Joe Carter -now-. Does that mean he's a bad
influence etc?
>
>>Finally, Winfield's OF defensive is horrid.  But since he keeps the ball in
>>front of him at all times he does not look bad. He looks the same as Kirby
>>Puckett does. 
>
>So. Whats your point.

My point is that Winfield is being selfish by playing in the OF because
it hurts the team defence and his pitcher's confidence knowing that there
is a slow, immobile OF in RF. 

You have not addressed my question about: Why is it ok for Winfield to 
not respect management, but it is not ok for Bell too? 

Anand Sinha 
Jays #1 -> all the way in '92
Robbie Alomar for MVP 			Jeff Kent for ROTY
Sarah Sinha for MVP 2009 		Sarah Sinha for ROTY 2009
Juan Guzman for Cy Young

PS. David, I am really enjoying this argument, I just wish you'd answer
some of my questions :-) And please trim your responses a bit :-)
From: dtate+@pitt.edu (David M Tate)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Dynamic Duos
Date: 31 Jul 92 18:14:35 GMT
Organization: Factors of Ys, Inc.

I wrote:

>Here's a pop quiz.  Which teammates hold the record for:
>
>	1. Most combined hits in a season?
>	2. Most combined doubles?
>	3. Most combined batters' walks?
>	4. Most combined batters' strikeouts?
>	5. Most combined stolen bases?
>	6. Most combined pitchers' strikeouts?

As a first hint, let me give you the winning totals in each category:

	1. 485 hits (!)
	2. 116 doubles (!)
	3. 285 walks
	4. 331 strikeouts
	5. 166 stolen bases
	6. 624 strikeouts

Obviously, the totals given in #1 and #2 rule out any recent seasons.  The
last player to get 50+ doubles in a season was Don Mattingly ('85?).

More hints may be forthcoming, depending on the degree of response I get.
In the meantime, here are the records for some other categories:

	Triples: 56  (Chief Wilson 36, Honus Wagner 20, 1908(?) Pirates)
	Pitcher wins: 68 (J. McGinnity 35, C. Mathewson 33, 1904 Giants)
	Pitcher losses: 48 (O. Jones 25, Jack Cronin 23, 1904 Dodgers)
	Pitcher walks: 317 (Tommy Byrne 179, Vic Raschi 138, '49 Yankees)


>
>Extra credit if you can tell me which seasons...  I'll post the answers in a
>day or two.
>
>-- 
>      David M. Tate      | From my dugout sleep I fell into the Game
> dtate@unix.cis.pitt.edu | And I crouched in the circle while my insides froze
> Randall 'Chico' Jarrell | One out from death, one hit from dreamt-of glory
>"Death of a Pinch Hitter"| I woke to 'Strike One!' and the nightmare sliders...


-- 
      David M. Tate      | From my dugout sleep I fell into the Game
 dtate@unix.cis.pitt.edu | And I crouched in the circle while my insides froze
 Randall 'Chico' Jarrell | One out from death, one hit from dreamt-of glory
"Death of a Pinch Hitter"| I woke to 'Strike One!' and the nightmare sliders...
From: tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: RP/PA for AL and NL (More bogus RP stats)
Date: 22 Jul 92 03:28:25 GMT
Organization: Cornell Univ. CS Dept, Ithaca NY 14853


Why do we want to divide RP by the total team runs?  It gives a neat
number, but does that number have any meaning at all?

RBIs are certainly lineup dependent.  So why don't we just take RBIs
as a percentage of opportunities?  Elias counts them for us, you
know...  Of course we are left with three percentages then.  But we
can use some sort of weighted average, if you like.

It is a little more difficult to figure out a stat for the other half
(runs).  But a previous suggestion made sense...  Weight the bases
according to the chance of scoring from them.  Give a batter 1 point
for a HR, 3B = .80 for a triple, 2B = .50 (or whatever) for a double,
1B = .25 for a single or a walk, (2B-1B) for a stolen base, and (-1B)
for a CS...  It isn't perfect, but it at least makes sense (which many
of these other numbers do not).

If you want to factor out opportunities, take the average over
opportunities.  Or at least make some real effort to *guess* at the
number of opportunities.  But somehow equating the number of "team
runs" with the number of "opportunities" is ridiculous.

Again if we had the play-by-play data to work from, I think most of
these silly suggestions would disappear.  They are merely attempts to
fix fatally flawed data.

Cheers,
-Valentine
-- 
Quantrill gets his shot at the bigs.... 	tedward@cs.cornell.edu
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball