HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: AS.GGG@forsythe.stanford.edu (Gwyn Gordon)
Subject: Re: Equestrian out of Olympics??
Organization: Stanford University, California, USA
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 15:52:47 GMT

In article <92230.190923ROPBB@CUNYVM.BITNET>,
Bliss B. Siman <ROPBB@CUNYVM.BITNET> writes:
>The prediction about the Olympics coming down to 5 sports seems unlikely since
>they keep adding things like rhythmic gymnastics etc.

Now THERE'S a team sport if I ever saw one!

-gwyn
Newsgroups: rec.equestrian
From: MAUSEN@vm.ucs.UAlberta.CA
Subject: saddle purchase
Organization: University Of Alberta, Edmonton
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 00:43:16 GMT



        With a tremendous feeling of relief, I would like to report
  that I have finally purchased a dressage saddle.
        First and foremost, I would like to thank PROFUSELY all
  those who sent advise and comments a few months ago when I first
  started looking.  This would not have happened half as easily
  without all your help.
        It's a used Stubben Parzival, two years old (used heavily
  for one year but very well maintained).  Complete with fittings
  (Stubben leathers, 'heavy' stirrups, wool saddle pad, string girth)
  it was $950 Cdn.  I would have been very happy if it had been
  cheaper, but they're $1550 new here (inc. sales tax), with no
  fittings, so I don't feel I got a bad deal.
         It felt like riding on air to me, and it's the only saddle
  I've tried that fit Kaiser properly.
         We are pretty darn pleased with ourselves, if you don't
  mind me saying so!  :*)   If they'd just quit making me work
  overtime, I could actually USE it!!  On the other hand, I need
  the work to pay for the saddle...
         Again, many many thanks!

                                                Margaret and Kaiser
Newsgroups: rec.equestrian
From: deblev@nimoy.ipac.caltech.edu (Debbie Levine)
Subject:  Schooling vs competion Was: Mech. Hackamore
Organization: California Institute of Technology
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 23:42:52 GMT

In article <1992Aug15.100013.26494@organpipe.uug.arizona.edu> tracy@scoraz.resp-sci.arizona.edu (Tracy Scheinkman) writes:
>...You and I are just bound to disagree over training methods
>and what constitutes proper schooling and competing.  I tend to believe
>in the dressage concept that you school the horse properly and when you
>show them they will do what you ask...  

Well, Tracy disagrees with Gwyn and I disagree with Tracy!

I think that the question of whether or not the horse and rider
compete with the same bitting they school with is an individual choice.
Even dressage riders don't necessarily use the SAME bitting, they just
have to make sure it is one of the permissible snaffles.

In fact, I have heard that some upper-level dressage riders school
their young horses at home in a double and spend their training to
fourth level time praying the horse won't figure out that the brakes
got left home.  I've also heard that some riders won't bring a horse
out until they can use a double.  I think this a far more questionable
approach than schooling carefully and consistently at home in the mildest
bit that works then stepping it a just a little in a competition 
enviornment.

I would agree that it would be IDEAL if every horse and every rider 
could safely and happily do anything anytime in a fat snaffle, BUT
even if one works for a lifetime towards that goal, one has to 
cope with reality in the interim.  Waiting until one can accomplish
this to compete isn't realistic.  As long as one isn't misusing harsh
equipment or neglecting basics, I don't see anything wrong in wanting
a bit more edge in competition than at home.

And, a horse that gets carried away cross-country (and MOST horses
find it pretty exciting)  is a lot more dangerous than a horse that
gets carried away in the dressage arena.  Most eventers use more bit
for cross country than dressage, many use more bit for cross country
than stadium, and many more use the cross-country bitting for stadium
at an event but not at home.  Sometimes it's the CHANGE of bit
that makes it more effective.  

   Debbie               
   deblev@ipac.caltech.edu
From: llyons@next.com (Liza Lyons)
Newsgroups: rec.equestrian
Subject: Re: ADVICE NEEDED ABOUT A SKIN CONDITION
Date: 18 Aug 92 21:05:50 GMT

Jill:

Local vets have been going crazy this year treating skin problems like the one  
you describe, and no one seems to know what the root cause is.  Shortly after  
arriving from Seattle in May, Kinsale developed a few patches of thick, scaley  
skin on his face. We wondered - as you did - if it was caused by fly spray, or  
maybe his new fly mask and tried curry combing at first.

When I brought the vet into the picture, he suggested alternating Betadine  
rinses with shampoos using Neutragena T (yes, this is the shampoo for humans  
:-) ). In both cases, he advised diluted solutions and rinsing thoroughly after  
the washings.  Within a few weeks, we had the problem under control.  

One word of caution, be on the watch for skin dryness when using these kinds of  
treatments.  While they can clear up skin disorders, they can cause permanent  
"burns" if horses are very sensitive.  We started with a few Betadine scrubs,  
and then switched permanently to the shampoo since it's milder.

Liza and Kinsale
llyons@next.com
Newsgroups: rec.equestrian
From: rmvale@watnow.uwaterloo.ca (Ruth Vale)
Subject: Re: Pulley reins  WAS Hunt Seat Hand position
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 14:00:33 GMT

In article <14165@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> pallas@cephalo.neusc.bcm.tmc.edu (Sarah Pallas) writes:
>In article <Bt6o4M.1C6@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca> rmvale@watnow.uwaterloo.ca (Ruth Vale) writes:
>
> >high-hand position was, in my experience, essential in controlling
> >an excited, high-headed jumper.  It is the only way to do a "pulley-rein",
> >one of the essential skills in riding the horses I had available
> >at the time.
>
>Could someone explain what a pulley rein is, how you do it, and d
>when it should be used?  I thought I understood what it was, but

A pulley rein is used to control a horse that is high headed and
well on its way to a bolt.  Doesn't work well with a bucker, since
you want to stop the forward movement (of a runaway) as opposed to
getting a avoiding a vertical maneuver (of a bucker).

CAUTION:  This can be very severe.  Use with caution.  DO NOT use
if you are about to lose your temper.  In that case, do a flying
dismount and get yourself out of trouble.  By the time you've
walked home and caught your horse, you will have cooled off
enough to treat the horse with constructive "criticism". :-).

Set yourself firmly in the saddle and make sure you've got
a firm base of support.  Shorten both reins so that your hands
are half way up the horse's neck.  Take a firm hold of both
reins.  Take a deep breath to calm yourself. Take one hand (the weakest arm)
and still holding the reins, take a firm hold of the mane.  Put
the other hand over top of that hand, crossing the rein over
the neck just a bit so that the upper hand is firmly braced
against the lower hand.  Grab what you can of the mane with the
upper hand.  The result is that the horse who is pulling/running
will be pulled up short and is literally pulling against him/herself.

You don't have to pull back.  If you've shortened the reins enough
you are using the neck strength of the horse against his/her mouth.
Usually stops 'em cold.  Let up IMMEDIATELY if they start to respond
but be prepared to do it again if they continue the bolt.

Practice on a standing horse and use gentle hands.  Even better to use
a halter rather than a bit for the practices.

Ruth
 



-- 
=============================================================================
  I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I am
    not sure you realize that what you understand is not what I meant.
=========================== rmvale@watnow.uwaterloo.ca ======================
From: mlr21@cas.org (Mary Lee Raines)
Newsgroups: rec.equestrian
Subject: Re: Drivers encounter loose horses - CO2 pistol?
Date: 19 Aug 92 21:37:40 GMT
Article-I.D.: cas.1992Aug19.213740.3315
Organization: Chemical Abstracts Service

In article <1992Aug19.182138.14727@cube.handheld.com>, vls@cube.handheld.com (Vern Stant) writes:
|> > Just as we approached the highway, a frisky pinto mare and a 
|> > dusky pony came bounding across the yard of the house...
|> > KICKED MY MARE.  Meanwhile the pony was kicking my wife's mare.
|> 
|> I may be "flame bating" here, but I have had a horse kick my horse
|> and I have had dogs try to bite him. So far, he has been very good
|> but a girl I know has a knee brace because a dog bit her horse.
|> The horse tossed its head and she lost the reigns. The dog (she
|> said this is true..) got the reigns and the horse freaked. She
|> tried her emergency dismount but ripped the tendons in a knee.
|> I personally feel helpless in this situation and bought a CO2
|> pistol. It makes more noise than I thought it would so I guess
|> I'll have to desensitize George, but I gotta do something. I
|> love horses and dogs but... Any thoughts?
|> --
|> Vern Stant              | The opinions expressed herein are
|> Hand Held Products, Inc.| not necessarily those of Hand 
|> 804.784.3090 voice      | Held Products, Inc., and may not 
|> 804.784.3147 FAX        | even be mine. Use at your own risk

I got kicked by a mare in a pasture I was riding in (and had often ridden
in before), but I was getting my mare started again after a time-out for
foaling.  I also ended up in a knee-brace for a while.  I started carrying
a dressage whip when I rode in the pasture.  My mare is used to my carrying
a whip, and just waving it around moved the other horses away, including 
the problem mare who kicked me (this problem mare seemed to always be 
in heat--needed a dose of Regu-Mate?).

If your horse isn't used to your carrying a whip, start from the ground
and get her used to it--touch her all over.  You may want to start with a
riding crop because it's a lot shorter and isn't at all floppy.  Then do
the same with the dressage whip. I do this with foals to get them used to it.  
If they are at all nervous, slack off a bit.  You don't ever want to scare 
them with the whip, you just want them to accept it.  I rub their backs 
with it, their stomachs, work up to their necks, and eventually rub their 
heads with the whip in my hand.

The dressage whip is a lot longer than a riding crop and probably just
waving it at a dog should send it off.  However, if you need to, you
can smack them with it, which should definitely send them running.

Dogs can see a whip better than they can a pistol, and that in itself
may help as a deterrent.  (Plus it's probably easier to get a horse
used to your carrying a whip than used to a gun going off.)

Hope this helps,

Mary Lee Raines
Ravenswood Appaloosas
Newsgroups: rec.equestrian
From: AS.GGG@forsythe.stanford.edu (Gwyn Gordon)
Subject: re: mechanical hackamores (just good stuff,no flames honest!)
Organization: Stanford University, California, USA
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 19:47:31 GMT

>        However just so I don't wind up in trouble over this one I don't
>feel that many so-called strong bits are strong, merely different,
>for example I think most pelhams and kimberwickes are relatively
>mild bits, whereas I think that fat or hollowmouth snaffles are
>generally too big for many horse's mouths and therefore they
>are uncomfortable for most horses.  In the clinic we discovered that
>a number of ordinary-looking snaffles are Very uncomfortable because
>they pinch the tongue, while a kind of wild intensely curved looking
>snaffle was very comfortable because it not only did not pinch it
>didn't flex upward and hit the roof of the mouth when rein pressure
>was applied.

I think this is a very important thing to realize. A lot of people
think, "I need a stronger bit, a _____ is a stronger bit, so I'll
use that." It's more complex than that. Some horses react strongly
(and often negatively) to a bit that is "milder" because 1) it
doesn't fit their mouth or 2) the bit acts upon a particularly
sensitive area for them. Using a thin snaffle is totally different
than using a slow-twist snaffle, which is totally different than
using a Tom Thumb, blah blah blah. Some horses go great in these
godawful looking things. It's the ACTION of the bit, rather than
just what rests on their tongue.

>>same aids + more bit = same response, but more of it
>>different aids + any bit, same or different = confusion

>Sorry if this is a problem, but it was my understanding that
>the bit was considered one of the aids.

I guess I think of "aids" as things the rider does, like another
word for "cues." Semantics, I guess. Like, a bit sitting in the
mouth isn't an "aid" but a person pulling on the bit is an aid that
produces a reaction. Same goes for legs, seat, voice, whip? What
else? (something rustling in the bushes? Let's not call that an
"aid" though)

> A french mouth snaffle does have 2 joints, but there are
>several bits with 2 joints.  A Dr.  Bristol has a flat plate piece
>joining the outer two portions of the snaffle, with the flat plate
>set at an angle so that it may exert more pressure on the tongue
>(I've reason it is sometimes referred to as a "mouthing
>bit".  The french snaffle has a short bar attaching the
>two pieces of the bit together but that bar is not set at an
>angle at all, the bar itself is not meant to act on the mouth just
to join the >other two pieces together.

This helped a lot, now I can say with authority that I was riding
this horse in "a french snaffle." Thanks.

-gwyn
Newsgroups: rec.equestrian
From: AS.GGG@forsythe.stanford.edu (Gwyn Gordon)
Subject: Re: Hunt Seat Hand position
Organization: Stanford University, California, USA
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 23:06:33 GMT

In article <1992Aug13.121729.3423@desire.wright.edu>,
sbishop@desire.wright.edu writes:
>I was always told by my instructors that the proper position for the
>hands is with the wrist straight, having a straight line through forearm,
>wrist, hands, reins to the horses mouth.  The hand is to be with thumb
>on top, not 'cocked' or bent.   Currently, lots of the people around here
>are showing in hunt classes with their hands in the 'doggie paw' position,
>very low on the withers.  These people seem to be winning.  Since I am
>helping my girl friend's daughters with their riding, I was telling them
>to ride the way I have been trained.  Is this just a local thing?  Should
>I change my technique?

I'm curious: what is your background? Dressage? Hunt seat? Western?
I ask because each discipline has different theories about exactly
what angle the hand/wrist should adopt.

My understanding is that for "equitation," the hands should neither
be flat nor upright, but at a natural slant that follows the slope
of the shoulder. This means ~45 degrees? I think it's easy for a
"thumbs up" position to look artificial and stiff, as if the rider
is thinking "I'm supposed to have my thumbs up." A flat hand looks
sloppy and is weak, so that should be just as penalized. The key is
that the hand, and arm that is attached, should be strong yet
supple. This is best achieved with a slightly rounded arm, thumbs
slightly pointing towards each other. (Imagine hugging someone, then
dropping your hands straight down and bending your elbows a bit.)
This is hard to describe. "Centered Riding" does a better job.

Also, it may not be JUST their hands that is deciding who wins! But
I do think, as I said before, that a hand that is too upright can
make someone look less experienced than they really are.

Good luck! (Hey, you could always just shoot all those
"puppy-doggers." Don't you hate how that looks?)

-gwyn.gordon@forsythe.stanford.edu
From: blythedr@infonode.ingr.com (Dennis Blythe)
Subject: need help with stubborn horse
Keywords: help
Organization: Intergraph Corporation, Huntsville, AL.
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 22:20:51 GMT


  I have a 3 year old mare that once she gets warmed up she is hard to stop.
I only have this problem at a canter. It usually takes 3 attemps to get her to 
finally stop. I do pull back enough on the reins , however am careful as to not cut her mouth, I have a low port bit that she uses and was wondering if another bit may help. Or could this be because she is so young.
  Also she gets in these moods periodicly when she refuses to pick up her feet
to be cleaned. I have noticed she acts up more often after the ferrier has shod
her. Does anyone know of a trick to this? I have seen in the past (video) wher
some on puts a strap around the horses leg so that the horse has no choice but to lift up it's feet. I am not sure how that was done since it was so long ago and I wouldnt want to attempt it. Any ideas or suggestions would be greatly
appreciated.

                  Thanx in advance
                      Pam
From: tracy@scoraz.resp-sci.arizona.edu (Tracy Scheinkman)
Newsgroups: rec.equestrian
Subject: re: head tossing and teeth problems
Date: 19 Aug 92 22:55:54 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Arizona, Tucson, AZ

In Article 8335 kcumming@bingsuns.cc.binghamton.edu (kcumming) writes:

>I have found that head tossing and other seemingly bit-related
>resistance problems are not related to the bit at all - but rather are
>due to a horse with a very sore mouth from teeth problems. 
		.
		.
		.
	 
>This time we had him try and get way back.  It turns out that since this
>horse is slightly parrot mouthed, and the teeth are slightly out of
>alignment that the very back teeth in the lower jaw have nothing coming
>down from the upper jaw to keep them from growing.  (horses teeth will
>continue to grow if there isn't another set of teeth meeting them.)  His
>lower back teeth were growing up and digging into his gums behind the
>teeth in the upper jaw (thus the sore temple area).  This dentist had
>teeth cutters which lie flat along the teeth and cut those sticking up
>to far off even with the rest.  No lie he cut a half to 3/4 of an inch
>off of each of the last tooth on either side.  I couldn't believe it!!!!

	Bravo!  Excellent post!  This is EXACTLY what the equine dentist
I had out for our clinic talked about and demonstrated.  

>What's even more amazing is that this was back in May and this horse has
>*not* flipped his head even once since those teeth were cut.  All those
>years and it wasn't a training problem, or an attitude problem, or a bit
>problem. . . his MOUTH HURT!

	It is amazing what a difference it can make.

>I urge anyone having consistent 'bit' problems, head tossing,
>resistance, etc. to have your horse checked by a reputable equine
>dentist.  They're ussually not very expensive (certainly cheaper than my
>vet.) and it may be some of the best $$$$ you spend on your horse.

	For an ordinary, no problem type of float my e. dentist charges
$30, for more extensive work (usually anything taking longer than 30 min.)
he charges an extra $15 per half hour.  To pull wolf teeth on youngsters
he charges $10 unless there is a problem attached (my filly has, get this
3 wolf teeth - 2 on the top and an aberant one on the bottom, so he will
be charging me more).  Our area is a somewhat financially depressed area
so other places may have higher charges.  By the way he did not charge
a call fee.

>Sorry this got sooooooooooo long.

	No problem it needed to be said.  Thanks, Kitty.
    
Newsgroups: rec.equestrian
From: lmasterm@cs.ulowell.edu (Lisa Masterman)
Subject: Re: Hunt Seat Hand position
Originator: lmasterm@bigmax.ulowell.edu
Organization: University of Massachusetts at Lowell Computer Science
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 18:25:31 GMT


In article <1992Aug13.121729.3423@desire.wright.edu>,
sbishop@desire.wright.edu writes:
>I was always told by my instructors that the proper position for the
>hands is with the wrist straight, having a straight line through forearm,
>wrist, hands, reins to the horses mouth.  The hand is to be with thumb
>on top, not 'cocked' or bent.   Currently, lots of the people around here
>are showing in hunt classes with their hands in the 'doggie paw' position,
>very low on the withers.  These people seem to be winning.  Since I am
>helping my girl friend's daughters with their riding, I was telling them
>to ride the way I have been trained.  Is this just a local thing?  Should
>I change my technique?

I have been told by instructors to imagine holding cups of liquid in both
hands, and to keep them from tilting in and spilling.  My present instructor
is particualy adamant about me keeping my hands from tilting inwards, since
I seem inclined to do some if I don't concentrate.  Holding a whip against
my thigh only makes it tougher since one hand simply CAN'T be upright.  I
think that upright is basically the way to go, though, because I seem to use
my arm muscles less efficiently when my hands tilt.  They hurt when I correct
the problem.

--lisa
Newsgroups: rec.equestrian
From: roger@hpscit.sc.hp.com (Roger Mullane)
Newsgroups: rec.equestrian
Subject: Re: University doing research on Navicular
Date: 11 Aug 92 23:24:58 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Santa Clara, CA


University of California at Davis was doing a research program on Navicular
back when we donated our QH in 1990.

Quarter Horses and Thoroughbreds are their primary interest. Both are 
particularly prone to the condition. Years of selective breeding has bred
some bad traits into these breeds from a soundness viewpoint. Most notable
are a the tendancy for straight pasterns and feet that are too small for
the weight of the horse. This is compounded by the types of work these
breeds are asked to do.

Warmbloods are prone to the condition as well. Xrays of feet many times
show enlarged vascular channels while not showing modeling changes to
the navicular bone. Many say enlarged channels is characteristic of the
warmblood and nothing to worry about, which is not true. Enlarged channels
is one of the manafestations of Navicular disease. 

Sorry about the horse. Davis is a very caring institution.
From: kcumming@bingsuns.cc.binghamton.edu (kcumming)
Newsgroups: rec.equestrian
Subject: huntseat leg position - inner leg vs. innder/back
Date: 18 Aug 92 16:50:25 GMT
Organization: State University of New York at Binghamton

First, my subject head should read inner/back.  I think the move to
inner/back with toe slightly turned out is because most people have more
strength using some of the leg muscled in the back of the leg.  Note -
this does not mean the toe should be turned completely out to the side
with only the back of the leg contacting the horse.  It should
absolutely be the inside back portion of the calf.  Also, talking about
moves to natural positions.  Many people (i want to say most, but i
won't make quite so global an assumption) literally 'toe out'.  I dare
say, at least, that there are more people who toe out naturally than
ones who either toe in or stand perfectly streight.  In light of this,
the toe pointed out at a slight angle (very similar to the angle of your
feet - a 'V' - that your fet are at when you stand at military
attention) is far more natural than trying to keep your leg pointed
streight ahead, especially when you're trying to attain contact with
your lower leg.

Now, with a much longer western leg, it is considerably easier for one
to turn the foot streight forward.  In western, though, you are not
trying to maintain nearly as much consistant contact, and many of your
ques should be given in more of a 'bumping' with the lower leg, rather
than a squeeze that is applied with a shorter, more contacted huntseat
leg.

Kitty Cummings
Kit-Mar Appaloosas
Ritter Hof German Shepherds
Newsgroups: rec.equestrian