HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: terra@athena.mit.edu (Terra Incognita)
Subject: Re: sexism
Organization: MIT - DMSE and Bait
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 13:16:50 GMT

First of all, I'd like to thank Melanie for bringing up this topic in
the newsgroup, because I've been hoping it would come up.  As a 
potential female Jew-by-choice, the role of women in Judaism has been
a concern for me.  I'm very interested in seeing reasoned discussion
on this topic (not ad hominem attacks on Melanie's faith or lack thereof,
as has been mostly the case so far.)

Although I'm probably going to end up as a liberal Jew (I'm a liberal
gentile now, so it seems only logical :-> ), I am interested in and
somewhat influenced by traditional Judaism.  From the reading I've done
so far (most recently "To Be a Jew" by Rabbi Hayim Halevy Donin) I
sort of get the impression that women simply aren't considered to be
full-fledged Jews, but more like "assistant Jews" to their husbands.
I say this because the role to which Judaism relegates women is pretty
much the same as the role women have been given in almost every social/
ethnic group since the dawn of Western civilization, that of
housekeeper/childbearer/caregiver.  My take on all of this is that
women are given fewer opportunities to act Jewish and to feel Jewish,
and what's more, they don't have a choice in the matter.  The non-obligations
and subsequent restrictions apply to all women, whether or not they are
married, have young children, etc.  I think this is what feminist Jewish
women are opposed to.  Incidentally, it might be helpful to clarify that
when we say that traditional Judaism is sexist, we're not suggesting
that it's *misogynist*, or "anti-women".  Certainly Judaism goes to
some length to show respect and caring for women, but it does so
within the context of a highly sex-segregated society.  I think what
a lot of Jewish feminists object to is Judaism's tendency to "keep
women in their place".

I've been wondering (seriously), are there any obligations upon women
from which men are exempt that are analagous to the obligations from
which women are exempt (besides niddah/mikveh)?

I have a pretty good idea already of what certain people on this
newsgroup think about liberal Jews, so I'd appreciate it if they
could refrain from sharing these opinions yet again.  I've expressed
my thoughts here only to (hopefully) generate thoughtful discussion,
and not to bash traditional Judaism, for which I really have a great
deal of respect.

[Melanie, if you haven't read it, you might want to check out a book
called "Jewish and Female" by Susan Schneider (or something like that).
It's all about how Orthodox feminists are trying to reconcile their
religion with their feminisms, *without* chucking Judaism altogether.
I found it fascinating.]

Shalom,
Terra
--
Terra Incognita                             terra@athena.mit.edu
Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Cambridge, MA    USA
"Work. Worry. Consume. Die. It's a wonderful life." (Lippy)
From: tichauer@valpso.hanse.de (Manfredo Tichauer)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Kaddish for pets?
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 92 00:57:01 +0100
Organization: "The Private site of Manfredo Tichauer"

solovay@netcom.com (Andrew Solovay) writes:

> In article <1992Oct8.190149.11311@cbfsb.cb.att.com> jweber@cbnewsg.cb.att.com
> >
> >Is there a rule/ruling on whether one may say Kaddish for a pet?
> 
> Hmmm... is the pet Jewish?

  My boxer was! When he was born they cut his "schwanz". The only problem
  was that the veterinary didn't pass the examination as a mohel  (was he
  therefor a reform boxer?)
 
  PS: for those who don't understand,  Schwanz means tail AND penis in german.


 -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Manfredo Tichauer M.                       EMAIL : tichauer@valpso.hanse.de
  Opitzstrasse 14                            VOICE :     (++ 49 40)  27.42.27
  2000 Hamburg 60 - GERMANY                  FAX   :     (++ 49 40) 270.53.09
 -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: PLEASE!  I need your help!  Help me keep this love alive!
Date: 8 Oct 92 13:57:47 GMT
Reply-To: weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener)
Organization: The Wistar Institute of Anatomy and Biology
In-reply-to: jsteiner@anwsun.phya.utoledo.edu (jason 'Think!' steiner)

In article <1992Oct6.152821.10362@uoft02.utoledo.edu>, jsteiner@anwsun (jason 'Think!' steiner) writes:
>> That's their problem.  If they reject their parents totally and 
>> completely, I have absolutely no sympathy for them.

>the problem is that often it's not the children doing the rejecting,
>it's the parents.

We were talking about a family that observes and practices Judaism to
some daily degree.  We're not talking about a family that remembers
that they're Jewish 3 or 4 times a year tops.  In the latter case, I
woulde agree that it's ridiculous and hypocritical for the parents to
get upset.

>> >As for the mourning ritual:  any parent who'd go that far to lay a 
>> >guilt trip on someone's acting rather wickedly him/herself.

>> Excuse me.  There is essentially no greater grief for a Jewish 
>> parent who has even the least amount of commitment to Judaism.  
>> Your reading it as a guilt trip is sick in the head.

>ahh, i get it. "we're feeling pain, so we've got to make you feel
>some too." -that's- sick.

Again, you and Richard are both sick in the head if you read guilt
trips into someone's natural pain.  At the level of observance where
parents sit shiva over a child's intermarriage, such a rejection by
the child is extreme.
-- 
-Matthew P Wiener (weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu)
From: aaronm@cybernet.cse.fau.edu (aaron meyerowitz)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: facing jerusalem
Date: 12 Oct 92 03:28:58 GMT
Organization: Cybernet BBS, Boca Raton, Florida

Hi,
   During my recent days of introspection my mind wandered to the
following question: How picky are various congregations about "facing
Jerusalem"? In my shul I notice that when we open the ark and "rise
to face Jerusalem" most people actually face the ark, as if our
collective thoughts and prayers were channeled through it! During the
year this still leaves everyone facing mainly eastward but during big
services with people seated to the sides this leaves people facing in
a variety of directions as the place is fairly large. So what happens
in YOUR shul? If you hop around alot do you see a difference? If
everyone DOES face in the same direction is it a semicalculated
straight shot to the temple mount or just due east (or as east as the
most nearly east of the walls of the room)?
Shana Tova,
Aaron Meyerowitz
From: baker@ROBOCOP.NYU.EDU (Jonathan Baker)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Rabbinical Literature
Date: 12 Oct 92 22:48:53 GMT
Organization: Courant Institute, New York University

You are essentially correct in your assessment of different types of
rabbinical literature.  As for sources for books, try the stores I
buy from, both of which do a fair amount of mail trade.  Where are
you?  Many cities have decent Jewish bookstores.

	Yes, if you buy a Talmud, you get the mishnah with it, but
it's spread out throughout the gemara that discusses it.  As far as 
English translations, these are what I know about:
	Soncino Talmud ed. Epstein, which you saw.  Somewhat cheaper,
with parallel Hebrew/Aramaic and English text, the Traditional Press
edition, in about 30 vols.  It's the Soncino English text.
	Out of print, the Rodkinson translation, from sometime around
the First World War, rather idiosyncratic.
	In progress, the Steinsaltz Edition, $40/volume.  This is an
English translation of Steinsaltz' Hebrew commentary on the Talmud.
Note that one volume of Steinsaltz covers a chapter of Talmud, not
an entire tractate.  The Hebrew Steinsaltz only takes 1-2 volumes to
cover a tractate, and costs $20/vol.   The Hebrew Steinsaltz is also
a work in progress.  About 1-1/2 tractates of English and 12-15 tractates
in Hebrew, out of 27? with Gemara.
	In progress, the Artscroll Talmud, $40/volume.  This has parallel
English and Hebrew/Aramaic text, with  a commentary that  is a digest
of traditional commentaries on the Talmud.  This edition is being written
as an anti-Steinsaltz edition.  Both versions have their merits.
	The Yerushalmi, or Palestinian Talmud, written by Jacob Neusner,
in 34 vols., just English text, little or no commentary.
	The Bavli, or Babylonian Talmud, incomplete, may eventually be 
completed, in 18 vols., just English text, no commentary., by Neusner.
The Neusner editions are published by Scholars Press, Atlanta, GA.
	There have been a few other attempts to write translations of the
Talmud, but they have only gone through 1 or 2 tractates.  One notable
book is Tractate Taanit, by Henry Malter, published by the Jewish 
Publication Society, still in print even if written in 1927.

Stores:

In New York:
Tiferes Stam
1664 Coney Island Avenue
Brooklyn, NY 

J. Levine and Co.
5 West 31 St.
New York, NY

Also, in Pittsburgh,

Pinskers
1-800-JUDAISM

     ---+  ||  --+  --+
        |        '    '             Jonathan J. Baker
     ---+-                          baker@robocop.nyu.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: alex@opal.idbsu.edu (Alex Feldman)
Subject: Re: Chinese jews
Organization: Boise State University Math Dept.
Date: 14 Oct 92 12:20:55

>>>>> On 13 Oct 92 23:39:37 GMT, backon@vms.huji.ac.il said:

Josh> In article <1992Oct13.154214.1@minnie.imd.nrc.ca>, chin@minnie.imd.nrc.ca writes:
> 	Question?
>
> Can some out there on the net give me an introduction to the history of
> the chinese jews?. A reference please?.
>

Josh> From what I remember reading, Jews lived in K'aifeng and although now
Josh> indistinguishable from their neighbors, they were descendants of Jews who had
Josh> come from Persia. The K'aifeng Jews had  built quite an elaborate synagogue but
Josh> I don't think it's still standing.

This might be an interesting addendum to the intermarriage thread(s).
I believe that the Ming, and possibly some of the dynasties before
them, prohibited foreigners from marrying each other... so any Persian
Jews that had settled in China would have had to intermarry, which
would explain why they are now "indistinguishable from their
neighbors".  When Jesuit missionaries came across this enclave (and
tried to convert them), they found them to be as Chinese as anyone
else, with little knowledge of Hebrew, but still attached to their
religion.  It may have been that the best and brightest got spirited
away to the capital to act as mandarins, and that is how Hebrew
scholarship was lost.

Josh> Josh
Josh> backon@VMS.HUJI.AC.IL






--
	--alex			alex@math.idbsu.edu
From: hillel@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (hillel.e.markowitz)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: sexism
Date: 15 Oct 92 15:41:37 GMT
Organization: AT&T Federal Systems

In article <1992Oct15.131650.22385@athena.mit.edu> terra@athena.mit.edu (Terra Incognita) writes:

>[Melanie, if you haven't read it, you might want to check out a book
>called "Jewish and Female" by Susan Schneider (or something like that).
>It's all about how Orthodox feminists are trying to reconcile their
>religion with their feminisms, *without* chucking Judaism altogether.
>I found it fascinating.]
>
>Shalom,
>Terra
>--
>Terra Incognita                             terra@athena.mit.edu
>Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Cambridge, MA    USA
>"Work. Worry. Consume. Die. It's a wonderful life." (Lippy)

I just found a review of two books that appear interesting.  I have
not read them yet but from the review they appear to address the
issue of feminism from an Orthodox viewpoint or Orthodox Judaism
from a feminine (not feminist - the reviewer was careful about the
difference) viewpoint.

To Be a Jewish Woman
by: Lisa Aiken
Jason Aronson, 1992

The Voice of Sarah: Feminine Spirituality & Traditional Judaism
by: Tamar Frankel
Harper SanFrancisco, 1990

_______________________________________________________________
| Hillel Markowitz        |    Im ain ani li mi li             |
| H_Markowitz@att.com     |    Veahavta Leraiecha Kamocha      |
|_________________________|____________________________________|
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: victor@watson.ibm.com (Victor Miller)
Subject: Re: Jews on the US Supreme Court
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1992 20:32:49 GMT
Reply-To: victor@watson.ibm.com
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
	<1992Oct16.183619.2811@cbfsb.cb.att.com>
Organization: IBM, T.J. Watson Research Center

Hillel> In article <1992Oct16.150444.14502@msuinfo.cl.msu.edu>
Hillel> friedenb@emerald.egr.msu.edu (Gedaliah Friedenberg) writes:

Gedaliah> 
Gedaliah> I was playing Tradition (basically Jewish-Trivial Pursuit), and got a
Gedaliah> question about the first Jewish US Supreme Court Justice.  I guessed
Gedaliah> Louis Brandeis because I figured that he (Brandeis) was the *only*
Gedaliah> Jewish Supreme Court Justice.  I was wrong.  (Unfortunately I do not
Gedaliah> have the question card with me, and I don't remember the name of the
Gedaliah> correct answer).
Gedaliah> 
Gedaliah> How many Jewish Supreme Court Justices have there been in the US?  
Gedaliah> At least two (Brandies, and the man from the Tradition question)?
Gedaliah> 
Gedaliah> Thanks,
Gedaliah> 
Gedaliah> Gedaliah Friedenberg
Gedaliah> -=-Department of Mechanical Engineering
Gedaliah> -=-Department of Metallurgy, Mechanics and Materials Science
Gedaliah> -=-Michigan State University
Gedaliah> 
Gedaliah>                    


Hillel> I recall Felix Franfurter,Arthur Goldberg, and Abe Fortas.  I think
Hillel> Frankfurter was the first.  President Johnson talked Arthur
Hillel> Goldberg into resigning to take the post of UN ambassador in order
Hillel> to give hive friend Fortas a seat.  I believe that Fortas was
Hillel> forced to resign because of a scandal and there have been no Jews
Hillel> on the court since.
Hillel> 
Hillel> _______________________________________________________________
Hillel> | Hillel Markowitz        |    Im ain ani li mi li             |
Hillel> | H_Markowitz@att.com     |    Veahavta Leraiecha Kamocha      |
Hillel> |_________________________|____________________________________|
Hillel> 

This reminds me of an interview a heard with Alan Dershowitz, who was
asked if there should be "a Jewish Justice on the Supreme Court".  He
answered "No! There should be three!".  He went on to explain, that if
one took the top 100 candidates by ability, that about 1/3 of them
were Jewish.

--
		Victor S. Miller
		Bitnet: VICTOR at WATSON
		Internet: victor@watson.ibm.com
		IBM, TJ Watson Research Center
		"Great artists steal; lesser artists borrow" Igor Stravinsky
From: er@iscp.Bellcore.COM (Elie Rosenfeld)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Kaddish for pets?
Date: 8 Oct 92 21:17:05 GMT
Reply-To: er@iscp.Bellcore.COM (Elie Rosenfeld)
Organization: Bell Communications Research (Bellcore)

In article <1992Oct8.201717.5655@umbc3.umbc.edu>, shimoff@umbc4.umbc.edu (Eliot Shimoff) writes:
|> I would guess that most people would view the recitation of Kaddish for
|> a pet as profound trivialization of an important religious ritual,
|> no matter how much you loved the animal.

I don't know about Kaddish, but someone in my grandfather's shul once wanted
him to make a "mishebayrach" for a dog.  I wonder what the proper formula
would be - "...hoo yirapeh es hacholeh Spot ben Fluffy..."?  And you'd need
to figure out the proper number of organs and sinews - 248 and 365 probably
only apply to humans.
-- 
Elie Rosenfeld      | "He tasks me!  He tasks me and I shall have him!
Bellcore            |  I'll chase him 'round the Moons of Nebir and 'round
Piscataway, N.J.    |  the Antares Maelstrom and 'round Perdition's FLAMES
(908) 699-8800      |  before I give him up!"  - Khan, "STII-The Wrath of Khan"
Xref: sparky soc.culture.jewish:17791 soc.culture.polish:3215
From: nabil@ncrcol.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM (Nabil Idriss)
Subject: Re: Jewish vs Arabs
Organization: NCR E&M Columbia SC.
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 92 13:42:49 GMT

In article <1992Oct13.201035.2052@njitgw.njit.edu> dic5340@hertz.njit.edu (David Charlap) writes:
>In article <exposim.718993469@hp9k> exposim@hp9k.lag.itesm.mx (Simposium de Sistemas) writes:
>>    If Israel is the most democratic country in Middle East, why 
>>    is he so punished (i think it's the right word), by the Arabs.
>
>Who said that the Arab nations are democratic?  And who said that they
>care what system of government Israel has?  Their problem is not the
>democracy-disctatorship conflict the USA had with the USSR.  Actually,
>there was a time when the Arabs and the Jews were friendly (fellow
>sons of Abraham...).  What happened was Brittain, when it became clear
>that they couldn't keep the Mandate region of the Middle East, decided
>to foment hatred in order to create wars that (they hoped) would keep
>them in control.  Well, now Brittain has been out for a long time, but
>the hatred they created lives on.

I think this is an accurate statement. I heared that the Britains 
not only try to create hatred, they also try to destroy the land
they were occupying before they withdraw.

>
>>    Maybe the U.S. has something to see there? Maybe because the 
>>    jewish in Israel are trying to insitutionalize the Apartheid vs
>>    the non-jewish people (Arabs, Palestinians,etc).
>
>Let's not confuse the Palestinians with the PLO.  If you remember (I
>believe it was the 6-day war) when this mess got started.  The Arab
>leaders (that became the PLO) asked Arabs to sell their land to the
>Israelis and leave the nation in the expectation that after the war,
>they could take it back from the deceased Jews.  Well, the Arab
>nations lost the war and the citizens who left had sold their land and
>now they want it back.  The PLO have kept (and may still be keeping)
>these Arabs in camps in order to maintain the myth of Israeli
>subjugation.
>

This is a purely false statement.

>>    economics, the most important problems in Israel???
>
>It's a problem of generation-old feuds that won't die because of the
>Arab mentality of "victory or death" and the hard-line Israeli
>distrust of their Arab neighbors.  Hopefully the nations will wise-up
>and stop the fighting.  Now that there has been a change of power in
>Israel to a group that's more willing to talk, we may see both sides
>reach an agreement in our lifetimes.
>
>After all, both Israel and the Arab nations stand to gain a lot from
>peace.  Look at how much better Egypt is compared to their situation
>before the peace treaty.

I think the economy of the whole middle east will flourish if there 
is a peace treaty.

>-- 
>David Charlap         |"there aren't 50,000 things for which it's worth writing

Nabil
From: stank@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (Stan Krieger)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Sukkah at work?
Date: 15 Oct 92 17:20:03 GMT
Organization: Summit NJ

>Does anyone know of an employer (outside of Israel) that allows its
>employees to erect a Sukkah on their property?  We have a large number of
>observant people at our place of business and I have often thought of
>approaching the company to let us build one to use for lunches (at the
>employee's cost!).  Just wondering if it has been done elsewhere, so I can
>point to examples and precedence.

As a first approximation, it seems to me that since most companies
consider it "proper" and "seasonal" to put up trees and wreaths
all over the building in celebration of Christmas, the precedent
for temporary symbols and items for the celebration of religious
holidays has already been established.
-- 
Stan Krieger                 All opinions, advice, or suggestions, even
UNIX System Laboratories     if related to my employment, are my own.
Summit, NJ
smk@usl.com
From: warren@nysernet.org (Warren Burstein)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Cross-dressing
Date: 3 Oct 92 20:21:32 GMT
Reply-To: warren@nysernet.org
Organization: Mail to News Gateway at Wang Labs

The psak which allowed women's prayer services (not minyanim, when
someone criticizes "women's minyanin", you can be sure that this
individual is misinformed about what he or she is criticizing) and
Torah readings (written by Rav Tendler on his father-in-law Rav
Feinstein's letterhead) said that talitot (and kippot, too?  I don't
recall) ought to be distinguishable as women's garments to avoid the
prohibition against cross-dressing.
-- 
/|/-\/-\       New signature will appear "acharai hachagim"
 |__/__/_/    
 |warren@     
/ nysernet.org 			Jerusalem
From: 2893684@QUCDN.QueensU.CA (corrigible)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: * Jesus Christ? *
Date: 10 Oct 92 18:07:30 GMT
Article-I.D.: QUCDN.92284.1407302893684
Organization: Queen's University at Kingston

Well, for one thing, the biblical messiah was supposed to liberate Palestine
for the Jewish people, be a military or political leader.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: solovay@netcom.com (Andrew Solovay)
Subject: Re: Humor in the Bible (was: Heroes in the Bible)
Organization: International Irony League -- Death before smileys!
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 22:29:50 GMT

In article <2939@ceylon.gte.com> sgutfreund@gte.com writes:
>But can anyone give explicit examples of humor in T'Nach?

Exodus 14:11: "And they said to Moses, "Was it for want of graves
in Egypt that you brought us to die in the wilderness? ..."

The first recorded Jewish joke.
-- 
Andrew M. Solovay       "Work is the curse of the drinking class."
solovay@netcom.com			--Wilde

#include <disclaimer.h>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.polish
From: hillel@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (hillel.e.markowitz)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Kosher Honey
Date: 15 Oct 92 21:45:28 GMT
Organization: AT&T Federal Systems

In article <1992Oct15.152329.15610@eskimo.celestial.com> chips@eskimo.celestial.com (:crp:) writes:
>Why is honey kosher?
>Is there any other food that comes from something treif that is kosher?
>Does honey need a hechsher?
>


I have been told that hte main reason is that it is mentioned
specifically in the Torah as a Kosher food.  Otherwise, there could
be a problem since it comes from a nonkosher insect.  Perhaps an
entomologist on the net could give the details on how hony is made
and we may find some reasons why the Torah says honey is kosher and
not other kinds of similar material.

One Pesach, honey definitely needs a hechsher since many brands of
honey add corn syrup.  If other ingredients are used in packaging
the honey, then it would need a hechsher all year round.

_______________________________________________________________
| Hillel Markowitz        |    Im ain ani li mi li             |
| H_Markowitz@att.com     |    Veahavta Leraiecha Kamocha      |
|_________________________|____________________________________|
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,rec.scouting
From: dnewcomb@whale.st.usm.edu (Donald R. Newcomb)
Subject: Re: Jesus vs. Cub Scouts?
Keywords: religion hyproctite rubbish
Organization: University of Southern Mississippi
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1992 00:19:27 GMT

In article <1992Oct11.233649.4662@cbnewsl.cb.att.com> stank@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (Stan Krieger) writes:
>
>It is unfortunate that such anti-Semitic dribble, right away, has
>to be introduced into a discussion of a Christian fundamentalist's
>problem in dealing with non-Christian Scouting religious awards.
>
Stan,
  The issue is that someone posted an article to rec.scouting expressing
a sincere, heartfelt religious delemma regarding what he saw as a 
potential conflict between his religious values and the practices of
the BSA. While most respondents acknowledged his delemma and tried
to help him find a positive solution to his problem. A few insisted
on pillorying him, hurling epithets like "hipoctite" and "rubbish".
What I was trying to  point out to  one  of the worst of these was
that religious intolerance takes many forms and can be viewed from
many prospectives. If you are not going to help someone to find
a positive solution you should just BUTT OUT! If this makes me
anti-Semitic, in you book, so be it. With our many discussions
on various topics, I would have thought better.

-- 

Donald R. Newcomb
dnewcomb@whale.st.usm.edu
newcomb@usmcp6.bitnet  
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish