HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: pjm@cshl.org (Pat Monardo)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: No Soul
Date: 10 Sep 92 03:28:03 GMT
Organization: ----

In article <1992Sep9.061804.22742@cco.caltech.edu> RADAMS@cerritos.edu (Roger Adams) writes:
>In article <1992Sep8.183804.3336@cco.caltech.edu>, 
>wong@rkna50.riken.go.jp (Wong Weng Fai) writes:
>
>> 	I would like to take my shot at the topic of "soul". 
>
>> 	We should begin with what we mean by a "soul". Intuitively, I
>> would define a "soul" (no authority here but ...) as an entity that :
>                                                          ^^^^^^
>I would like to stop you right here because what follows in your definition are
>attributes of the said "entity". Now what I would like to ask you at this
>point is: does conservative Buddhism reject the idea that an "entity" of
>any sort, regardless of what the attributes are, exists? If the conservative
>Buddhist view is "no, there is no such thing as an entity of any sort, 
>nothing at all exists" then there is no point arguing about the following
>attributes (1 thru 6) that you came up with since you don't think that
>any "entity" exists - regardless if its in a body or not or if its separate
>from the senses or not or if its permanent or not etc. - anyhow.
>

what do you mean by "conservative" Buddhist?
i take it that an "enlightened/liberal" Buddhist would understand
that the ultimate view would agree entirely with Vedanta philosophy.
i think that the conservative and liberal Buddhist position
is extremely clear - nothing has "inherent" existence,
everything arises from causes and conditions.
but i understand ever more strongly that the important philosophy
here is that soul theories are not "conducive to dhamma",
don't lead to the end of suffering. that is one question
i would like you to answer. how does the existence of a
soul bring liberation? is a soul capable of stopping the
flood of confusion we drown in every day here in the West?
it seems the answer is a resounding NO!

-- 
-- Pat Monardo
-- pjm@cshl.org
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
From: pjm@cshl.org (Pat Monardo)
Subject: The 7 factors
Organization: ----
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 21:08:46 GMT


I am very interested in Buddhist meditation. How about
an alt.meditation.buddhist group? Here is a simple teaching
that i guess almost all Buddhist meditators receive.
It is called the 37 wings of enlightenment. Basically
it describes the process by which the common person
cultivating afflictions becomes the enlightened yogi
contemplating nirvana.  By definition, a buddhist yogi
develops 7 qualities conducive to enlightenment:

	1. mindfulness
	2. investigation
	3. energy
	4. joy
	5. tranquility
	6. concentration
	7. equanimity

in honor of the Buddha's 6 years of ascetic practices,
i think it would be fine to spend 6 years developing
joy and tranquility :). seriously, there was a discussion
about happiness vs equanimity, etc. i think it is appropriate
to say "we are ALL correct". if you are able to reach the point
where factors 6 & 7 are strongest then it is probably time to begin
deeper "path" consciousness. but in the meantime
i say Be Joyful and Tranquil (its part of the path!)

PS. This topic is addressed in both _The Four Foundations of Mindfulness_
and in _This Very Life_. FFM is better done, IMHO, because it is
not as advanced as TVL and seems to be delivered by someone more
in tune to the Western Mind. In fact it appears that Ven U Silananda
teaches in California. Anyone know him?

-- 
-- Pat Monardo
-- pjm@cshl.org
From: tealas@sco.COM (Teala the disenchanted)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: Enlightened Beings
Date: 4 Sep 92 16:40:53 GMT
Article-I.D.: qiclab.1992Sep7.103738.18507
Organization: The Santa Cruz Operation, Inc.

In article < bguest9@bsg9.Corp.Sun.COM (Kristian Skrinak) writes:
>
[beginning of post deleted...]
>
>I am thinking of an enlightened master as such a powerful rock or tree.
>
>I will for now continue to think that I know what to do; that is simply
>to meditate. "Meditation is everything (in religion). Everything else
>is marketing!", a master once told me. 
>
>I am not a loner, but that is more or less how I want to practice. If
>I could I would find a master, sit in meditation, with no instruction,
>and go home, daily. You would think I could find something like this
>in Chinatown.
>
>For that matter, I'd like to ask another question of all of you, who have
>very kind:
>
>Do you know of a master who does not teach?
>

In a literal way, no.  This might be why you are having a hard time
finding it.

Interesting, you seem to be separating 'verbal' from silent instruction,
(or seated meditation in the presence of one who has deep, direct experience--
'a powerful tree'),  and including any  verbal instruction or 
activites that may surround a Master in with the 'hype' or marketing.
No doubt you've probably seen a bit of hype and assertion around in 
some spritual groups, but what is the real meaning of meditation?

My understanding of the purpose of meditation is to come into direct 
experience of my real Identity, Consciousness, the very source of Love. 
Such seated meditation is a powerful aid to focus and come into this
direct realization, but the real essence of meditation is truly perpetual.  
The direct experience recognized in seated meditation is eternal,
encompassing all aspects of life.  It doesn't stop when I get up, 
or talk or engage in activities.

My experience with both meditating silently in the presence of my Master
and receiving instruction or engaging in dialogue with him, is that
it is all 'Silent' transmission, even when he speaks.  His experience
is genuine and full, and at all times he reflects this, directs
one to this inner fullness--whether this in in dialogue, discourse
or silent meditation.  Every aspect of life becomes complete absorption
in meditation!  This to me is the real meaning behind "Meditation is
everything", that one's own direct experience at all times is everything.

Kristian, good luck in your experience and search for a Master.

-teala
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
From: forman@ide.com (Bonnie Forman)
Subject: Re: Meditation and smoking
Organization: Interactive Development Environments, SF
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 03:26:37 GMT

In article <1992Sep8.182708.2376@cco.caltech.edu> news@aix01.rz.fht-mannheim.de (USENET News System) writes:
>D. Rahlfs <RAHLFS@BEATE.RZ.FH-ULM.DE> asked:
>: Who is/has been a smoker and meditates? Is smoking an impediment for
>: good meditation?
>
>I am a lazy man. Laziness keeps me from believing that enlightenment demands
>effort, discipline, strict diet, non-smoking, and other evidences of virtue.
>
    Enlightenment demands a pure heart.  Nothing more and nothing less.

   (IMHO, and according to all I've been taught)

				Bonnie

-- 
********************************************************************
 forman@ide.com   * ``Things that are Real are given and received  *
 !sun!ide!forman  *            in Silence''      M.B.              *
********************************************************************
From: raj@globe1.att.com (Rajendra P Sharma)
Subject: Re: Meditation and smoking
Organization: ----
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1992 03:22:14 GMT

Bonnie says:

"Enlightenment demands a pure heart.  Nothing more and nothing less."

	[Can't be more true than this thruth.]
	
	The Heart is already as is. [Pure]
	
	Enlightenment is seeing things as they [truly] are.

	[It's not a matter of "going somewhere" but of "seeing."]

	That's all.	

---raj

Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
From: jrk@information-systems.east-anglia.ac.uk (Richard Kennaway)
Subject: Re: Is the Abhidharma worth studying?
Organization: ----
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1992 03:21:47 GMT

Many thanks to those who suggested works on the Abhidhamma.  I have the
Wisdom catalogue, which contains many such works, but it is difficult to
know which of them is likely to be useful just from the catalogue, and the
advice here has been very helpful.  I'll probably get Nanamoli's "Path of
Purification", and leave Pruden's translation of Poussin's translation of
Vasubandhu until I have a Sunday afternoon free :-).

--
Richard Kennaway     SYS, University of East Anglia, Norwich NR4 7TJ, U.K.
Internet:  jrk@sys.uea.ac.uk               uucp:  ...mcsun!ukc!uea-sys!jrk


Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
From: cup.portal.com!Tagi%portal@uunet.uu.net
Subject: Re: Enlightened Beings
Organization: ----
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 03:27:25 GMT

9209.09 e.v.

Tawit Chitsomboon writes:

It would indeed be interesting to conduct a project asking all
the (seemingly) enlightened masters this blunt question
"Are you enlightened?". It would be interesting to compile all
the responses into a volume.

A true masters (in the buddhist tradition at least)
will have his/her way of answering the question without a positive
'yes' or a positive 'no'. (he'll beat the bush to death :--)


Response:

I still maintain that there is no such thing as a 'true master'.
They're all phonies.


Tawit:

For your physical safety, try to avoid Zen monks. They had been
known to give a slap on the face or a hard pinch on the nose, to
the questioners :-)


Response:

You probably meant this in jest, but I'm going to respond seriously
just in case people don't understand.

Zen monks only hit other Zen monks.  It is a consensual relationship,
usually between 'master' and 'pupil'.  I asked this of a Zen monk
once and he answered in the best way I could have imagined:

'I don't know what 'enlightened' means.' 


Tawit:

Buddhadasa has never claimed himself to be enlightened. Make
no mistake, he's never humble either, e.g., never claimed that
he's not enlightened. He's probably the only highly-revered
monk in Thailand that has never experienced the great finale
of a sitting meditation in which the body and the entire Universe
explode into extinction (or something like that).


Response:

This makes sense to me.  Those who are enlightened never claim
anything.


Tawit:

To me, anyone claim to be enlightened must at least be the most
ordinary person on earth, i.e., s/he shouldn't 'look' enlightened.
(e.g., walk slowly, with slowly gazing eyes, and all those traditional
holy manners)


Response:

I doubt that we can classify the enlightened by behaviors.  Some are
undoubtedly of the slow-walking variety.


Tawit:

To all enlightened masters:

Not performing miracle is the greatest miracle that you could perform.
(I doubt that you could do it)


Response:

To all the unenlightened:

Not being heretical is the greatest heresy you could attain.
(Tawit doubts that you could be heretical) :>


Thyagi
----------------------------------------------------------
I am naked beneath my clothes.

Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
From: ianr@muppet.bt.co.uk (Ian Robertson )
Subject: Re: Meditation and smoking
Organization: ----
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 18:30:13 GMT

In article 1009@qiclab.scn.rain.com, RAHLFS@BEATE.RZ.FH-ULM.DE (RZ D. Rahlfs) writes:
>Who is/has been a smoker and meditates? Is smoking an impediment for
>good meditation?

1) Depends on what you smoke.

2) Tobacco and the associated difficulties in breathing coughing etc are an 
impediment as is the desire to stop for a fag instead of continuing the sit.

	Love & Light
Ian
From: pjm@cshl.org (Pat Monardo)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: Is the Abhidharma worth studying?
Date: 9 Sep 92 01:00:58 GMT
Organization: ----

In article <1992Sep8.182424.1987@cco.caltech.edu> jrk@information-systems.east-anglia.ac.uk (Richard Kennaway) writes:
>Before getting to the question I pose in the Subject line, supposing I did
>want to study the Abhidharma/Abhidhamma, can anyone recommend some
>accessible references?  Preferably not anything I would have to order from
>Tibet unseen and wait six months for.  I only read English, alas, although
>I might grapple with texts in Dutch, German, or French given enough
>motivation.

two references: Abhidharmakosa-bhasyam by Vasubandhu and
Visuddhimagga by Buddhaghosa, both available in English.
that's all the abhidharma you'll ever need IMHO.
Vasubandhu is too chaotic and you will need a less
exhaustive approach as in Visuddhimagga. basically
you will get acquainted (real fast:) with about every
important Hinayana idea with these two books.

>
>My interest arises from an interest in the Perfection of Wisdom doctrine. 
>I have some of Conze's translations of various PoW sutras.  Conze makes two
>important points about them: firstly, they should be seen not as
>philosophical treatises, but as guides to meditation; secondly, they
>presuppose a thorough knowledge of the Abhidharma.
>

if you are referring to The Large Sutra, then yes, the entire
first section deals with an enumeration of Abhidharama,
(obviously it assumes you have another book to get the details)
but with some enhancements. i suppose one can interpret
The Large Sutra to be the Understanding basket of Mahayana
meditation, but for the Samadhi basket i would recommend
Mahamudra.

>However, from what I have read about the Abhidharma in various books on
>Buddhism, it seems to be a classification of everything into categories as

you are probably referring to the Theravadin Abhidharma itself,
which i am not capable of commenting on.

>
>As for its relation to the Prajnaparamita, it is as if the only purpose of
>studying the Abhidharma was to then unlearn it by studying the latter
>doctrine.

i dont see it that way. i see it as Transcending not Rejecting abhidharama. 
buddhist word games: if abhidharma means "to the dharma" or
"higher dharma" than Prajnaparamita would be "over the dharma"
or "even higher dharma".

>
>What is the point of the system?  Is it, like the Prajnaparamita, to be
>taken as a guide to meditation rather than a philosophical system?  But
>then what sort of meditation would it be useful for?  If the Prajnaparamita
>is concerned with the experience of emptiness, what experience, if any, is
>the Abhidharma concerned with?

the idea of Abhidharma, to me, is one HUGE mindfulness of body/mind
meditation. it provides the backdrop for all the subtle definitions
needed for advanced study of Dependent Origination - Vipassana meditation.
but i havent gone further than the Visuddhimagga and the Kosa.
i may (but dont expect to). good luck!

-- 
-- Pat Monardo
-- pjm@cshl.org
From: jdavis@netlink.cts.com (James Davis)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Illness and the Centers
Date: 10 Sep 92 17:40:24 GMT
Organization: ----

Toshi:

>        Why is it that these illnesses occur before and during
>        these retreats?
>
>To tell you a little about what happens to me, I get hemorrhoids
>and occasionally other stomach/root illnesses about a week
>before I'm going to leave.
>
>        Any of you guys have some theories about this
occurrence?
>        Anyone else have such experiences?


There are illnesses incident to following a path of meditation
and of association with individuals and groups who do the same. 
Some symptoms arise as a result of over stimulation of a
particular center or chakara, others from inhibiting energy that
is naturally seeking expression.  Illness can also result from
abrupt shifting of energies from one focus to another.  

The solar-plexus is a very sensitive area for most of us and
people may experience physical trouble from anything effecting
the emotions (high, low, or in between).  This gut-level center
has an intimate interplay with the heart center, which is cause
enough for caution.

The center at the base of the spine is in sympathetic interplay
with the highest head center.  Powerful spiritual "incoming" in
the highest head center can definitely aggravate hemorrhoids if
one has a predisposition to them.  Pain and more serious trouble
can result from inhibiting energy in this center.  Each problem
seems to have an inner and an outer cause.  Hemorrhoids, for
instance, can be aggravated by bad diet and associated
constipation; a vegetarian diet can help--especially one that
avoids dairy products.  Unless our vehicle measures up health
wise, spiritual stimulation can have serious side effects of a
painful nature, and it may be necessary to avoid accepting more
than our body can stand at any given point in time.  Each
circumstance is individual, but the golden mean and common sense
are good.

"Soul force is like sunlight in a garden from which weeds as well
as flowers can grow."        Alice Bailey (Djwhal Khul)

 

--                    
INTERNET:  jdavis@netlink.cts.com (James Davis)
UUCP:   ...!ryptyde!netlink!jdavis
NetLink Online Communications * Public Access in San Diego, CA (619) 453-1115
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
From: MORIARTY@vm1.nodak.edu
Subject: Re: No Soul
Organization: ----
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1992 03:23:16 GMT

To affirm the existence of a soul is eternalism, but eternalism
is an extreme.  To deny the existence of a soul is nihilism, but
nihilism is an extreme.  The truth is the silence between the
two extremes. To find that silence, why not consider this imitation
koan, If there is no soul, what reincarnates?
     in gassho, Mike/Email: Moriarty@vm1.nodak.edu


Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
From: pcalvert@nyx.cs.du.edu (P. Calvert)
Subject: New magazine-- "Light of Consciousness"
Organization: ----
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 18:29:08 GMT



LIGHT OF CONSCIOUSNESS
 
(Reprinted from "Snow Lion Newsletter & Catalog, 1992 Summer Supplement")
 
A new magazine of Eastern wisdom called "Light of Consciousness" is
available.  It is published by Truth Consciousness at Sacred Mountain
Ashram, 10668 Gold Hill Rd., Boulder, CO  80302-9716, tel. 303-447-1637.
Contact them for more information.


Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
From: pjm@cshl.org (Pat Monardo)
Subject: Re: Why meditate?
Organization: ----
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 01:01:53 GMT

In article <1992Sep8.182757.2486@cco.caltech.edu> news@aix01.rz.fht-mannheim.de (USENET News System) writes:
>Pat Monardo <pjm@cshl.org> replied to Lorenzo Farris
><farris@ruhets.rutgers.edu>:
>[about meditation for joy]
>: i tire of the endless rantings that craving is evil,
>: mind/matter is suffering. i see the importance of this
>: teaching to reach the inner citadel of peace, but to
>: then not reach out and attempt to realize nirvana==samsara
>: is a seriously flawed mindset.
>Why is it more flawed than the idea that craving were evil?
>Isn't that an attempt to condemn another form of craving,
>and in this way another form of craving?

some background: i wanted to learn more about meditation
so i decided to explore vipassana meditation. the above
criticism was directed at the point of view in certain books
such as _In This Very Life_. Another excellent vipassana book
is _The Four Foundations of Mindfulness_, a truly lovely
book. Hands down, i would recommend Four Foundations
of Mindfulness (Ven. U Silanada) to anyone.
In the meantime, i've researched the cause of my
objection to the Mind/Matter as suffering hypothesis
and realized that the source of this is the Theravadin
failure to recognize the emptiness of phenomenon.
They recognize the empiness of self, but then try
to disassociate this "no-self" from the mind/matter
phenomenon, which is not posited to be empty.
other than my caveat to be on guard against the
excessive emphasis of disassociation of "mind(?)fulness" 
from the mentality/material complex, i think vipassana
is good. but this problem will likely result in
my not seeking help from "insight mediation" centers
in the US but probably go for mahamudra and/or mahasampanna.

-- 
-- Pat Monardo
-- pjm@cshl.org
From: john@spss.com (John Przyborowski)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: Would like info on Kundalini
Date: 3 Sep 92 18:31:46 GMT
Article-I.D.: qiclab.1992Sep7.103919.18770
Organization: SPSS Inc.

darsie@eecs.ucdavis.edu (Richard Darsie) writes:

>Would some knowledgeable person please post or email basic (and if
>possible, not-so-basic) information about Kundalini?  This can include
>references to good reading material about Kundalini as a goddess persona,
>chakras, and Kundalini Yoga as well. I think this may be important for
>me.  Thanks very much in advance for all replies.

>Richard

Moi aussi!

john
SPSS
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
From: srini@ireq-num.hydro.qc.ca (Srinivasan K.)
Subject: TirukkuraL, Jainism (Re: Submission of an article for posting)
Organization: ----
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 20:04:45 GMT

In article <1992Sep1.220504.18899@qiclab.scn.rain.com>
 sp2@cec1.wustl.edu (Sundara Pandian) writes:
>
>             A commentary on a Tamil verse on death
>           ------------------------------------------
>     In this article, I present a commentary of a tamil verse
> on death from the Jainistic Tamil work `Thirukkural' [ 1st
> century, A.D. ]. The verse is kural # 339, which I present
[Rest of the posting including an excellant explanation deleted]
>                                                         - S.Pandian
>                                                  sp2@cec1.WUSTL.edu

Early Christian missionaries in Tamil Nadu, were quite sure it must
have been a Christian or christian influenced work. Many Hindus
consider it as a Hindu work. The author is considered a Brahmin
by some people. The author is considered from very low caste by
some people. He is considered a Jain by some people.
The above mentioned work has not been proved conclusively belong to any
particular religion, including Jainism.

The fact, that it is claimed by more than one religion, and not
disowned by any of the above, just speaks for its value.
Its relation to any particular religion is unimportant.
It is the essence of the Tamil religion of that time.

K. Srinivasan   srini@ireq-num.hydro.qc.ca
From: tt@wag.caltech.edu (Toshi Takeuchi)
Subject: Sickness and Meditation/Retreats
Organization: ----
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 20:05:09 GMT

I was talking (over the net) to a friend of mine, and she said that
she, too, gets some wierd symptoms/sicknesses right before a long
retreat with her teacher.

I'm assuming that we aren't the only ones who get sick before weekend
retreats etc...

	Why is it that these illnesses occur before and during
	these retreats?

To tell you a little about what happens to me, I get hemorrhoids and 
occasionally other stomach/root illnesses about a week before I'm 
going to leave.

	Any of you guys have some theories about this occurence?
	Anyone else have such experiences?

Toshi
tt@wag.caltech.edu


Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
From: news@aix01.rz.fht-mannheim.de (USENET News System)
Subject: Re: Meditation and smoking
Organization: Fachhochschule fuer Technik Mannheim
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 18:27:08 GMT

D. Rahlfs <RAHLFS@BEATE.RZ.FH-ULM.DE> asked:
: Who is/has been a smoker and meditates? Is smoking an impediment for
: good meditation?

I am a lazy man. Laziness keeps me from believing that enlightenment demands
effort, discipline, strict diet, non-smoking, and other evidences of virtue.
There is a paradise in and around you right now, and to be there you don't even
have to make a move. There is nothing you need to do first in order to be
enlightened. All potential experiences are within you already. You can open up
to them at any time.
                    - Thaddeus Golas in "The Lazy Man's Guide to Enlightenment"

(Disclaimer: I'm not smoking, and I don't know who meditates :-)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marc Wachowitz, mw@gandalf.ki.fht-mannheim.de, 75742@novell1.rz.fht-mannheim.de
  *  wonder everyday    *    nothing in particular    *    all is special  *

Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
From: MORIARTY@vm1.nodak.edu
Subject: Suffering
Organization: ----
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 18:28:44 GMT

I don't believe we have to take bad experiences to heart in a

punishing way.  The Buddha teaches that "Suffering is universal."

The experience of suffering/bad experiences reminds of the truth

of the Buddha's teaching.  The remaining Noble Truths follow

from the experience of suffering.  Suffering comes from ignornace.

Ignorance can be overcome.  The way to overcome ignorance is the

Eightfold Path.  And so it goes...

     I guess what I'm saying is that as bad experiences arise,

we have the opportunity to examine bad experiences and discover

a fresh application of the mindfulness of the Buddhist Way of

Life.

     With gassho,

     Mike?Email:Moriarty@vm1.nodak.edu

Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern