HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.psycgrad
Date:         Wed, 16 Dec 1992 16:27:15 EST
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         Sunni <bjreilman@UCCS.EDU>
Subject: Re:

Dear Tor,
        Quit picking on Jennifer. She is an experimental student, who also
happens to be extremely caring and compassionate; and she would never look
at a patient and say "I read such and such in Journal X, etc..." I happen
to know her personally, she is a good friend, and the therapy field is losing
a potentially great therapist. She does happen to be a very concientous
researcher, so naturally her first concern is stats and references.
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Date:         Fri, 11 Dec 1992 17:22:59 CST
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         ECO_GXC@SHSU.BITNET
Subject:      RE: (long post) UCLA class on marriage and divorce

For those of you who might not be aware of it, the introduction of
the idea of the economics of divorce and marriage was by Gary Becker
(one of the cites in the course description) and he just won a nobel prize
for it this year -- he's also done economics of crime and a number
of other economics of (pick a social issue) topics
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Date:         Sat, 12 Dec 1992 09:27:00 PST
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         lindberg@PSYCH.SSCNET.UCLA.EDU
Subject:      Someone else's stats expertise

     I just wanted to add that, having been in the translation business for
many years, translators don't always get credit, particularly when
translating material for other people's research.  But the point is well
taken.  Now, I still don't understand what the difference is.  Why is having
someone translate for you somehow more acceptable (as long as you give them
credit) than having someone else do the stats for you?
     I guess the reason this bothers me is that it seems to create an
absolute hierarchy where stats is occupies a fixed dominant position
over other aspects of a project.  True, the analysis IS very important, but
asking the fundamental questions, designing the project, solving the problems
that come along, finding subjects, keeping subjects, etc. seem at least just
as important.
     Although we're talking about doctoral dissertations, this is related to
co-authorship too: Who should get firts authorship? The one that did the
stats, or the one that designed the project? The one that searched/wrote the
lit review/intro or the one that collected the data?
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Date:         Wed, 16 Dec 1992 11:53:00 PST
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         lindberg@PSYCH.SSCNET.UCLA.EDU
Subject:      Clinical vs stats skills

     One of the frequently offered reasons why clinicians should know stats
is their ability to understand journal articles.  Yet, it seems that (a)
clinicians (not the Boulder model type) don't spend much time reading
journals; and (b) clinicians (even the Boulder model type) almost never read
journals that tend to challenge their basic orientations; that is,
behaviorists don't make a habit of reading psychoanalytic journals, and your
psychodynamic types would much rather spend their free time re-reading Lacan
than some article on mathematical models of behavior.
     I'm not saying this is good. I'm not saying this is always the case. But
it happens, very often.  Besides, only recently have clinical trainees been
required to learn stats (as a matter of fact, many statistical analyses were
not even possible some years ago).  So, are old-time clinicians that did not
have the benefit of multivariate analysis, path analysis, etc, not as good as
the statistically non-impaired?  Personally, the statistical skill of my
prospective therapist would be the last thing I would think of when chosing
one!
     Nangel (who happens to dig stats!)
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Date:         Tue, 15 Dec 1992 12:28:46 EST
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         Matthew Simpson <054340@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Personal experience challenge

On Tue, 15 Dec 1992 07:16:15 -0500 <20SSMITH@GALLUA> said:
>Kathy...hmmm...I've noticed you DO seem to get challenged quite a bit...
>but I've thought that rather enviable...at least others seem to find your
>ideas stimulating enough to challenge...better than that world of network
>indifference where posts are consistently ignored...not a fun place to
>be...
>Sybil

This is the ol' thesis-antithesis debate.  I say that the most reliable
way to learn in conversational forum or dyad is to say something strong,
something that is easy for people to disagree with.  Over the course of
conflict resolution, much is learned.  Strong statements yield a greater
rate of responses than mild statements.  This is because people like to
argue.  Why do people like to argue?  Because they like to learn the
strengths and weaknesses of their own arguments.

A friend once tried to convince me that thesis-antithesis yields synthesis.
Of course, I disagreed.

Have fun!  :-)

O======================================================================O
 | _  l  _  * Matthew Simpson          * BITNET:                      |
 |  \_l_/   * School of Psychology     * 054340@uottawa.bitnet        |
 |    l     * 145 Jean Jacques Lussier * INTERNET:                    |
 |    l     * Ottawa, Ontario K1N 8P5  * 054340@acadvm1.uottawa.ca    |
O======================================================================O
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Date:         Thu, 17 Dec 1992 17:09:27 EST
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         Matthew Simpson <054340@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Not scientific enough

On Thu, 17 Dec 1992 15:02:27 -0500 <20SSMITH@GALLUA> said:
>"well at first when we saw this we thought it was just
>another one of those behavioral things in psychology then we looked
>at it more carefully and realized it had some scientific merit after
>all"

Sybil, is that comment for real?  Who wrote that?  Are those the precise
words that were used?  From those words, I gather that the assumption is
that anything that is studying behavior and/or psychology, is excluded
as a subset of science.  Also, from those words, I gather that the NIH
funds no studies of "...behavioral things in psychology..."  Am I
correct?  Anyone else?

O======================================================================O
 | _  l  _  * Matthew Simpson          * BITNET:                      |
 |  \_l_/   * School of Psychology     * 054340@uottawa.bitnet        |
 |    l     * 145 Jean Jacques Lussier * INTERNET:                    |
 |    l     * Ottawa, Ontario K1N 8P5  * 054340@acadvm1.uottawa.ca    |
O======================================================================O
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Date:         Sat, 12 Dec 1992 15:57:41 EST
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         Marin Andersen <MANDERSE@CCVM.SUNYSB.EDU>
Subject: Re: Common sense
              12 Dec 1992 14:28:25 GMT from <jmw1@ST-ANDREWS.AC.UK>

  So your doing work on common sense understandings of asthma.  I'd love to
hear more about your work.  I'm very interested in mental representations of
illness and currently working on a study of symptom perception in asthmatics.
What are you doing, finding etc. ... how are you measuring common sense
understadings, and are you finding them to have a significant impact on self-
medication strategies?  I haven't started collecting data yet as I'm about
to defend my specialties and write the actual proposal for the study I want
to do over christmas break but I'd love it if you'd tell me more about your
 work.
                                        -Marin Andersen (manderse@sunysb.edu)
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Date:         Sat, 12 Dec 1992 01:31:00 EST
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         "Todd.Nelson" <22817MGR@MSU.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Common-Sense Knowledge In Ps

On Sat. Dec. 12th, (1:14am ET), Eric wrote in response to Matthew:

  "If you do not feel you have been penalized or treated unfairly because of
   the associations carried with the label of our profession, FANTASTIC! But,
   I'm not sure why you seem so resistant to the arguments of those of us
   who believe that it is a problem. Perhaps you could illuminate us?"


 I just want to second Eric's statement/rebuttal. I agree totally. Thanks Eric
for an eloquent post in defense of 'our' basic position.

Best to all,

Todd D. Nelson
Department of Psychology
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI  48824
22817MGR@MSU.Bitnet
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Date:         Wed, 16 Dec 1992 18:17:39 EST
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         Tim Tumlin <UFTRT@NERVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Stats & Therapists

     So, we are moving away from a little Therapist Bashing, Byzantine,
unscientific money grubbers that they are, and on to the question of What
Makes a Good Therapist.
     I concur in being disgusted by someone who has his/her stats done
for him/her in a dissertation.  Such things have occurred within my program,
where some people seem to be required to invent a new branch of science in their
research while others get away with murder in terms of how little they have to
do.  Nevertheless, I think that proficiency in stats and clinical skills are
virtually orthogonal.  It may speak to that person's personality, since it seems
a little antisocial or manipulative to get others to do one's stats completely,
but who can say what that situation really was?
     I agree that you'd want to see a therapist who knows about a lot of allied
conditions, such as the effect of frontal head injury on your mood or the effect
of hypertensive medications on your sex life, but that doesn't come from stats,
or even being able to calculate the degrees of freedom from a JCCP article.
     This also raises the point that a Ph.D. or a doctorate in itself doesn't
mean diddly.  When I hear someone has a doctorate, I always ask "In What?" and
"From Where?".  Aside from knowledge of the quality of specific programs, one
has to apply certain general criteria to the quality of a degree.  My biases
tend to be in favor of accredited over unaccredited programs (with all due
respect to the person from Saybrook) and in favor of clinical over non-clinical
and doctoral over non-doctoral programs in terms of general clinical work
(meaning more than just psychotherapy).  But to risk a cliche', some of my best
friends and colleagues have master's degrees and in non-clinical areas who do
excellent work.  And there are people in accredited doctoral clinical programs I
wouldn't send my worst enemy to for therapy.  But then, I think being a good
psychotherapist is damned hard and there are very few really good people out
there and a lot of duffers. (As much as I criticize psychiatrists, two of the
best therapists I've heard of were psychiatrists: I'll bet they were considered
deviants in their medical school classes.)  I feel sorry for anyone shopping for
a therapist who doesn't have a good referral source or has to take pot-luck at a
clinic.

Tim
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Date:         Thu, 17 Dec 1992 13:56:55 EST
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         Jason Evan Mihalko <WC5BB@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: authorship
              17 Dec 1992 13:45:47 -0500 from <fishkin@SCF.USC.EDU>

On Thu, 17 Dec 1992 13:45:47 -0500 Stephanie Fishkin said:
>
>I find it hard to beleive that there are many graduate students and/or
>professors who hire an undergrad and say, "here, run these subject [or
>code this data]" without either (a) explaining to them the purpose of
>the assignment, or (b) having them engage in another aspect of the research
>experience as well.  Then again, perhaps I am very naive...
>

     When I was an undergrad I thought it would be good to volunteer
some of my time to be a research assistant for a professor at another
university.  I was told exactly what I was to do, but the professor
who designed the research project and the graduate assistant who
conducted all the research spent no time explaining to the
undergraduates what was going on.  The *only* reason I had a clue
was because I went to the library and looked over previous articles
that the project had generated.
                                  ---Jason

~~~~~
Jason Evan Mihalko
wc5bb@cunyvm.cuny.edu
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Date:         Thu, 17 Dec 1992 10:57:00 EST
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         "David M. Fresco" <FRESCO@UNC.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Hi!

Welcome John,
I am also interested in depression and anxiety mostly from the
perspective of learned helplessness.  I would like to know more about
the coping styles side of your research interests. I can't say that I
know Schwartz' work, but I do know what Bootzin and Kihlstrom are up
to.  Sounds like Arizona is a really strong program.  I'd like to
know more about your school too.
David Fresco
fresco@unc.oit.unc.edu
fresco@med.unc.edu
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Date:         Tue, 15 Dec 1992 17:00:00 EST
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         "Todd.Nelson" <22817MGR@MSU.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Common-Sense Knowledge In Ps

Tor,

It is NOT you, because yes, this particular debate IS winding down. Matthew
and I have been battling for the last week or so, and it seems we are exactly
where we begun. Both of us have failed to convince the other to accept our
positions. (stubborn, aren't we?) However, I must say: it's been FUN, and I
hope we get more participation from others on the list, on other
equally-'controversial' (or 'weighty') issues such as he and I (and Eric, and
Tor, and others) have been discussing.
Just a few more days till Christmas break! :)

Now, if I could just finish this TAKE-HOME final! >:(


Best to all,

Todd D. Nelson
Michigan State University
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Date:         Wed, 16 Dec 1992 15:35:04 -0800
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
Comments:     Warning -- original Sender: tag was downey@STEIN.U.WASHINGTON.EDU
From:         Tom Downey <downey@U.WASHINGTON.EDU>
Subject:      Value of response latency measurement in CBT

I need some quick help in identifying a study or studies I read a long
time ago regarding the use of response latency measurement to indicate
comprehension of the task or lack of comprehension.

What we are doing is developing a computer managed instruction (CMI)
system that will collect data on student's performance and proficiency.
We have the ability measure and store response latency data from the
Computer Based Training (CBT) lesson.  I recall reading somewhere that the
response latency would be a good measure of the student's comprehension of
the task (we have many non-native English speakers).  This could; a.  Help
to give us more data to use in item analysis and b. Help us to track or
correlate lesson difficulty with language.

Anyone have any good sources or opinions on this one?

Tom
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Date:         Wed, 16 Dec 1992 09:55:23 EST
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         Sunni <bjreilman@UCCS.EDU>
Subject:      Re: authorship

Monika,
        ANY kind of work like you described should be receive credit .  I
think that if a student develops an idea, or contributes significantly to
an already ongoing research project, they should be given credit for what
they have done. The only student I feel that should not receive authorship
is one who is being paid to do some work, but has no clue about what they
are doing, they're just doing... That student is not learning or understanding.
That student is doing no more than being paid to do housework. Sunni
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Date:         Fri, 11 Dec 1992 18:33:58 EST
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         Sunni <bjreilman@UCCS.EDU>
Subject:      RE: Common Sense vs. REAL Scienc

I am not in disagreement with you that articles should be complete and
include all the necesssary information to justify the article, and to allow
replication of the research. I also don't believe that lots of words do a
thesis make no matter what you are trying to say. I guess I am not sure of what
you are saying. I do agree that when a psych text makes a statement, then the
argument should be justified, and that we don't have to use a lot of words just
to say a little thing. My big argument was with folks who use jargon, or just
use big words for the sake of making what they are writing sound like something
spectacu;a

r, and then we'll think they're smart and look up to them. Fooey. I
think all articles and texts should be written for the purpose of educating.
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Date:         Thu, 17 Dec 1992 15:02:27 -0500
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         20SSMITH@GALLUA.BITNET
Subject:      Not scientific enough

But Kathy...you missed my point...for those competent, skilled psychologists
doing research which must meet certain guidelines the goal is to meet
those specific standards...if those standards are met and the research
happens to be in psychology which others doubt is a science then so
be it...I recently submitted a proposal (and received a grant ...ahem...)
to NIH to study the relationship of right hemispheric functioning,
etiology of deafness and socioemotional functioning...one of the comments
I received during the nearly year long review for merit and funding
process was "well at first when we saw this we thought it was just
another one of those behavioral things in psychology then we looked
at it more carefully and realized it had some scientific merit after
all"...well it was accepted, the funds have been disbursed and I'm
happily running my little subjects...I'm funded for the next three
years and couldn't give one hoot if someone doesn't consider it
REAL science...evidently those on the funding committe had enough
scruples to consider the project on its merit and not paint it with
a nonscientific brush just because it came from "one of those psychology
types"  interepreted "not a real scientist"...back to my point in the
first vax (re: doctors, paramedics and saving lives)...who cares what
the label is so long as quality work is getting done?   I know, I know
you don't agree...n'er the twain shall meet?

Sybil
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Date:         Fri, 18 Dec 1992 10:27:20 EST
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         Sunni <bjreilman@UCCS.EDU>
Subject:      RE: Not scientific enough

sybil,
        I am really interested in your study, as I have a deaf child.
Could you send me something on it when it is ready? Sunni
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Date:         Thu, 17 Dec 1992 17:17:52 EST
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         Sunni <bjreilman@UCCS.EDU>
Subject:      Re: authorship

Suppose they are only hired to clean up after the rats? And yes, sometimes
only to code or enter data?  Sometimes the department hires people just for
work study (which I believe was the original reference) that aren't even
psych students. Should they get authorship?
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Date:         Wed, 16 Dec 1992 10:25:38 -0800
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         Tor Neilands <tbn@UTXVM.CC.UTEXAS.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Bushisms & Quale Quotes

>Three words Todd, Tor & Gary,
>
>                        Get a life.
>
>PS.     I hope four years from now the depth and freshness of your humor will
>        be as entertaining.

Ah, the warm flames of december to ward off the chills associated with the
end of the semester! It's nice to know that there are others out there
"having a life" ("don't bother me! I'm too busy "being productive" and
"having fun" to think and engage in serious discourse) while some of us
"waste time" (a small part of our already rich and meaningful lives, I
might add) by discussing "trivial" topics such as the direction our field
is taking and will be taking in the future.


Tor Neilands
Systems Analyst
Statistical Services Group
Computation Center
University of Texas at Austin
Austin, TX  78712

Phone: (512)-471-3241, Ext. 263

Internet:  TBN@Utxvm.cc.utexas.edu
___________________________________________________

"To thy own self be true".             --- Walt Whitman

"No matter what you call it, it's all just a game".
                                                   --- Master Wong
                                 "Once upon a time in china"

"Two roads diverged in a yellow wood and I, I took
 the road less traveled by, and that has made all the
 difference".                                 --- Robert Frost
___________________________________________________

Disclaimer:  All of the views expressed above are solely
those of the author. Any relationship between my own
views and those of the University of Texas and/or The
Computation Center at the University of Texas are
due merely to regression to the mean.
____________________________________________________
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Date:         Mon, 14 Dec 1992 13:33:20 EST
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         Monika Trzcinska <054470@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: authorship

I have another "authorship-related" question for you:
What about giving SOME authorship to a potential grad student, who collected
all the data, did the histology (I am talking behavioural neuroscience here),
and WAS ASKED to write a method section, but later only saw her name in the
acknowlegment section?

To be honest, that was me 5 years ago, before I entered grad school...
I am enraged to this day, because in the lab where I am working presently, this
student would definitely get SOME credit, for the work she/he did.


                                 _
    ) (    Monika Trzcinska    _- o   ) (   054470@ACADVM1.UOTTAWA.CA
   )   (----------------------- o o  )   (----------------------------
    ) (                        -_ o   ) (
                                 -
   "The most important attitude that can be formed is that of a desire
    to go on learning".
                                                  Dewey (1938)
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Date:         Sun, 20 Dec 1992 01:53:10 EST
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         reza@PSYCH.TORONTO.EDU
Subject:      psycgrad

Hi.  My name is Reza Habib and I'm an undergrad at University of Toronto.  I
have just recently heard of psycgrad, and am very interested.  I was wondering
if you could tell me how I could subscribe.  My email is; reza@psych.toronto.edu
Thank you.

Reza
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