From: hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: O-C-R debate
Date: 27 Jul 92 18:27:11 GMT
Organization: Purdue University Statistics Department

In article <LERNER.92Jul26171846@division.cs.columbia.edu> lerner@cs.columbia.edu (Michah Lerner) writes:
>>> >>Judaism is, however, important to me.  And, I assume, it is important
>>> >>to you.  Do you reject _all_ expertise (Reform and Conservative as
>>> >>well as Orthodox)?  I assume that you do not necessarily reject expertise
>>> >>in other areas of endeavor (e.g., medicine, math); how (and where) do you
>>> >>draw the distinction?   Doesn't it take a great deal of knowledge
>>> >>(and hubris) to go off on one's own like that?   (I'm asking, not
>>> >>attacking.  Honest.  I'd attack you on the Orthodoxy - Christianity
>>> >>parallel, but not on the rest.)

>>> What is expertise?  Within the past century, the "foundations" of statistics
>>> have been blasted several times.  Finally, we seem to have a reasonable set,
>>> based on minimal assumptions.  But to arrive at this point, it was not
>>> the work of previous statistical specialists which was used; on the 
>>> contrary, their work was replaced by that of people using ideas from
>>> mathematics and economics.  I happened to be at the right place at the
>>> right time and with the right background, so I had a part in this.


>I fail to understand how the failure  of a man-made system such as
>statistics  implies the failure  of  the  one  G-d  given  system.
>Mathematicians (with  all due respect)  made  things  up  to be in
>accord with observations of the behavior of symbolic manipulations
>of their representations  of the world,  and  the system functions
>only as well as the axioms reflect the momentary behavior of their
>finite  observations and  subsequent  manipulations.  

This is a misunderstanding of mathematics (and statistics).  Mathematics
deals only with symbol manipulation; the mathematics has nothing directly
to say about the real world.  But since mathematics deals with symbol
manipulation, if a formulation is made of "real world" objects and
constructs in mathematical terminology, then to the extent that the
formulation corresponds to the real world, the conclusions drawn from
the symbolization is also valid for the real world.

Statistics deals with the problem of dealing with uncertainties.  Again,
to the extent that the real world has been correctly formulated, the
conclusions from the formulated model are valid.

			....................

>However the statement "Anochi  Hashem Elokeho" was said by Hashem.
>That is the unarguable truth.  It predates us and will postdate is
>as well..  It is not the product of some formal system.  It is the
>absolute G-d given truth.

Many have argued it.  But there is little disagreement on this group
about that particular statement.  However, there is much disagreement
on other statements.  Even the ancient sages had difficulty with all
the words of the Written Torah being the literal word of God.  As we
learn more about the world, much of the moderate amount of prehistorical
and historical material in the Torah becomes very difficult to accept
as correct. 

Now one can claim that much of it is allegorical, as did Rashi and
Maimonides, among others.  But this still casts extreme doubt on
whether it is "dvar hashem" or merely what those receiving Divine
inspiration thought God wanted them to write.  If the latter view
is taken, it is legitimate to challenge the writings as being 
sufficiently distorted as to be of little or no use.  This is the
case no matter how virtuous or theologically learned the writer.

As to the Oral Law, the situation is far worse.  Today's scholars
have every right to question what Rashi or Rav or Hillel stated as
being not in accord with God; modern knowledge of science, history,
philology, etc., must be used to attempt to figure out what those
who followed Divine inspiration were being inspired to know from
the Almighty; we cannot merely accept the words they spoke or wrote
as being what God meant.
-- 
Herman Rubin, Dept. of Statistics, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette IN47907-1399
Phone: (317)494-6054
hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Internet, bitnet)  
{purdue,pur-ee}!pop.stat!hrubin(UUCP)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish