HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ai065@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Thomas Hill)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: TONY POOLE- Please read.
Date: 30 Sep 92 06:05:02 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: thor.ins.cwru.edu


   I just checked back into the group for some quick reading, and just had to
write you a short note here. I find your constant need to knock others quite
disturbing. I would also kindly ask that you not distort the facts when using
other's names. If you will remember, our "conversation" consisted of you trying
to play some form of moderator God-like role in past and present. I seldom
resort to calling names, but in this case I feel very justified to calling you
a complete snob- someone who considers himself socially superior and condescends
to those he considers to be his inferiors. I would kindly ask again that you
stop looking down your nose at others. You do not own this group and thus you
should not constantly whine about every little topic that doesn't fit into
your "high" standards of discussion. Yes my friend, your shit stinks just like
ours.
-- 
George Bush? He doesn't have a clue anymore. Bill Clinton? A slick smile and
a pandering style. Neither one is being realistic about what it is going to
take. The answer..........? ROSS FOR BOSS! VOTE FOR ROSS PEROT FOR PRESIDENT!
The Cryptozoology Information Network. Want on our Email mailing list? Amiga!
From: barrett@astro.cs.umass.edu (Daniel Barrett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: Amiga for musicians (was Re: Falcon 030 vs. "next generation" Amiga)
Date: 2 Oct 92 19:35:19 GMT
Reply-To: barrett@astro.cs.umass.edu (Daniel Barrett)
Organization: BLAZEMONGER INCORPORATED

In article <1ae4jpINNsga@uwm.edu> gblock@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Gregory R Block) writes:
>barrett@snoopy.cs.umass.edu (Daniel Barrett) writes:
>: (B&P Pro is good only if you like the "pipes" metaphor.)  There are NO
>I _DO_ like the pipes metaphor, that's why I have such high regards
>for it.

	I'm glad it's working for you.  I read the entire B&P manual one
day (whew) and it looks quite powerful.  But after watching a real pro
use Performer at the infamous "Team Metlay" sessions (see rec.music.synth),
I was blown away.  I've used Performer too, but it's incredible to watch
a true expert use it.

>...the SunRize stuff
>can do some amazing stuff at the high-end.  I've seen it touted as,
>with some video editing stuff, being a complete audio/video computer
>editing system, and it had some neat stuff.

	Is the 16-bit Sunrize stuf even available yet?

>You never said, btw, if congrats are in order, Mr. PhD. :)

	Unfortunately, it wasn't that kind of test -- it wasn't to get the
degree.  It's just one of many hurdles along the way (but one of the
biggest).  I passed 2 out of 3 exams, meaning I retake one in the Spring.
This was as well as anyone else did -- nobody passed all three. :-(

                                                        Dan

 //////////////////////////////////////\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
| Dan Barrett -- Dept of Computer Science, Lederle Graduate Research Center |
| University of Massachusetts, Amherst, MA  01003  --  barrett@cs.umass.edu |
 \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\/////////////////////////////////////
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: skip@tacky.cs.olemiss.edu (Skip Sauls)
Subject: Re: Low End AGA Machine
Organization: University of Mississippi, Dept. of Computer Science
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1992 18:43:55 GMT

In article <1992Oct3.012421.5184@sol.cs.wmich.edu> 22black@sol.cs.wmich.edu (Martin E. Black) writes:
>dnavas@oracle.uucp (David Navas) writes:
>
>>>	Is this Commodores idea of a joke.  An 020 system selling for $1850
>>>   with no monitor.  I thought this was supposed to be Commodores low end,
>>>   low priced AGA system.
>
>>It'll have to be half that price to sell in any kind of quantity.
>>An EC030 might cut it at a price only a little under that, though.
>
>Why would an ec030 or an 020 be any cheaper.  I can pick up a 50mhz 030 for 
>$150US.  Now how much cheaper could it be for 020 maybe $80US.  And these 
>are prices for a consumer that wants only one.  For a company that can buy
>in bulk the price difference drops even more.  

Two things to consider :

1.  The 50MHz 030 CPU board requires parts that also work at 50MHz, unless
    you do things like Apple and the Clone makers do.  Commodore seems to 
    have a pretty good policy against overclocking, forcing 32bit machines
    to use 16bit data paths, and other hacks.

2.  A $100 savings for C= can end up being a $300-$500 savings for the buyers.
    While this may not seem like a lot in a $3000-$4000 system, it will be
    quite significant in the price of a $1000-$2000 system.

Skip Sauls
skip@tacky.cs.olemiss.edu
From: fheitkamp@desire.wright.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: Low End AGA Machine
Date: 5 Oct 92 11:47:23 GMT
 <1992Oct3.201602.5918@sol.cs.wmich.edu> <1992Oct4.093649.4529@desire.wright.edu> <1992Oct4.172725.898@sol.cs.wmich.edu>
Organization: Wright State University

In article <1992Oct4.172725.898@sol.cs.wmich.edu>, 22black@sol.cs.wmich.edu (Martin E. Black) writes:
> fheitkamp@desire.wright.edu writes:
>>	Again if having an 020 means a *substantially* lower price, it's
					^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>	not a big deal.  It *does* mean more people might be able to afford
>>	an AGA equiped Amiga.
> 
> And you totally lost the point i was giving.  It would not repeat would not
> be less expensive to put a 020 instead of a 030.  Would you like to save
> about $30 to have a crippled processor that might not handle future 

	I'm not disagreeing with you ( see the word I highlighted ).

> os's or alternative os's.  Even on a hypothetical $700 model the price would
> be about how much you would pay on sales tax.  
> 
> But then again i guess you could add an mmu.  But then they would have to build
> a socket for it, oops that goes that price difference.

	Again, agreed.
> 
> I do plan on buying a low end aga that would include a mmu.  So if the a1200
> doesn't have one, perhaps i might buy a unix box instead, that is used unix
> box.

	Maybe Commodore should sell the AGA machine with the processor
	card of your choice.  They could make an 040, 030 (full), EC030
	020.  Hopefully the cost of engineering and supporting all these
	different cards would not jack the price up to high.

	At some point they could even offer a P5 card that runs Windows.
	( Not sure whether to pu a smiley there or not )
> 
> Marty
> 
Fred Heitkamp,  ** Not an organization.  My opinions only **

> 
Xref: sparky comp.sys.amiga.advocacy:25695 comp.sys.amiga.misc:14573
From: eas3714@ultb.isc.rit.edu (E.A. Story)
Subject: Re: REAL FALCON 030 SPECS
Originator: eas3714@ultb
Organization: Rochester Institute of Technology
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 20:32:46 GMT

In article arbod20> etxansk@garbo.ericsson.se writes:
>eas3714@ultb.isc.rit.edu (E.A. Story) writes:
>
>>A 68020 in an AGA Amiga computer will freakin' dump on this thing.
>
> But it's still nice to see how many applications run faster on a
>humble Atari 520ST computer (compared to an Amiga 500).

Really? WHAT applications?  True, the ST is faster by .86 Mhz.. but
we're not talking about light years difference here, especially when it
can't use its full video bandwidth because the processor sits on the
same bus.

> I know the CPU's supposed to run faster if it isn't delayed by video
>DMA, but is there a working Amiga system where this (speed improvement)
>effect really shows? Can it be achieved on an A500 (without a mother
>board replacement)?

Plug in any memory upgrade.  The difference shows on every Amiga from
the A1000 on up (and down).  

> And please do no brag about what it _could_ be like or _will_ be like
>when the next-generation Amigas are released. The multiple bus
>technique has been available ever since the Amiga 1000 was released, hasn't
>it?

Si, but I was refering to the fact that the Atari machine doesn't use a 
multiple bus, and the new Amiga's still do.

-- 
"THAT is a DRY turtle.  That turtle is NOT moist!"
Ezra Story, a student at RIT, and
eas3714@ultb.isc.rit.edu, his trusty(?) mailing address.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: eas3714@ultb.isc.rit.edu (E.A. Story)
Subject: Re: REAL FALCON 030 SPECS
Originator: eas3714@ultb
Organization: Rochester Institute of Technology
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1992 00:40:00 GMT

In article <Chris_Millar.04vq@lppl.mi.org> Chris_Millar@lppl.mi.org (Chris Millar) writes:
>James McCoull writes:
>>FACT: The Falcon is lowed down significantly by the various display modes
>FACT: You are very wrong - the new BLiTTER does an excellent job of
>handling the new screen modes - actually, I should call it the COMBEL, not
>the BLiTTER.

GUESS: CPU and BLiTTER can't run at the exact same time in the Falcon, EVER.
I'd say that's quite a slowdown.

>>FACT: Clocking out pixels faster will slow it down more.
>FACT: YOnce again, you are wrong......it doesn't affect CPU performance -
>At All - and the COMBEL does a great job with it - of course, it can only
>display resolutions up to the point where the VIDEL starts hogging it's
>share of bandwidth, but i believe that limit is 1200x1000 or something
>goofy like that.

GUESS: Unless you have magically blessed RAM chips, the faster the video
display needs to go, the more it needs the bus.. which is shared by the
processor.  Unless it already takes all of the time it'll ever need
already... Oooo.. how impressive... So the '30 is slow ALL the time?

>In case you didn't know - video has access to as much system memory as it
>wants, hence no VRAM is needed.........

Ooooooooo... So, as a consequence, the 68030 runs BELOW its max speed at
a certain clockrate, no burst mode.. 68030 and BLiTTER can NOT run at
the same time without slowing each other down, sounds just dreamy...   

A 68020 in an AGA Amiga computer will freakin' dump on this thing.


-- 
"THAT is a DRY turtle.  That turtle is NOT moist!"
Ezra Story, a student at RIT, and
eas3714@ultb.isc.rit.edu, his trusty(?) mailing address.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: spz@specklec.mpifr-bonn.mpg.de (S.P.Zeidler)
Subject: Re: A4000(Not 3.0Mill. Amigas,the new number is 4.5Mio)
Organization: Max-Planck-Institut f"ur Radioastronomie
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1992 14:35:02 GMT

>kodak@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Jason Balicki (KodaK)) writes:
>>In article <1992Sep30.060048.24518@uni-paderborn.de> laire@uni-paderborn.de (Ralph Schmidt) writes:
>>>I only want to correct the number: instead of the old count 3.000000, we
>>>should use now 4.500000:-B
>>Well, I've got one of them, who's got the other 3 and a half :)

Hmm, that's Ralph at English again ;-) For the people who wondered,
he meant 4,500,000; in German the meaning of ',' and '.' are
the other way round ;-)

regards,
	spz
Xref: sparky comp.sys.amiga.advocacy:26028 comp.sys.amiga.misc:14724
From: zerkle@toadflax.cs.ucdavis.edu (Dan Zerkle)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.misc
Subject: Re: WOC Videotapes at FAUG
Date: 6 Oct 92 07:07:25 GMT
Reply-To: zerkle@cs.ucdavis.edu (Dan Zerkle)
Followup-To: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Organization: Department of Computer Science, University of California, Davis

ATTENTION!!!

Someone has cross-posted part of this thread between
comp.sys.amiga.advocacy and comp.sys.amiga.misc.  This is a bad thing,
since people will accidentally cross-post big piles of flames meant for
.advocacy into .misc.  The last time it happened (about two months
ago), the traffic in .misc more than doubled, and it was hard to find
any of the usual .misc posts.  We need to make sure that this sort of
thing doesn't happen again.

If you follow up to this thread, make sure the newsgroups line in your
header reads just:

Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy

and does not contain the .misc group.

If you really _must_ post in .misc as well, you should put in a line
like:

Followup-To: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy

in the header.  This will ensure that most followups to your post get
redirected back to .advocacy, and not .misc.  This post contains
contains such a line.  Also, put a note to that effect in the body of
your post, as such:

Please follow up to comp.sys.amiga.advocacy.

This will encourage people who have news reader programs (on BBS's,
mostly) do not respect Followup-To: lines.

Apologies to the many who have already heard and already know all
this.  This is the Fall, after all.  You know what that means.

--
Dan Zerkle  zerkle@cs.ucdavis.edu  (916) 756-5170
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: WOC Videotapes
From: fheitkamp@desire.wright.edu
Date: 4 Oct 92 08:58:48 EST
Organization: Wright State University 

In article <35549@cbmvax.commodore.com>, andy@cbmvax.commodore.com (Andy Finkel) writes:
> In article <1992Oct1.181430.8355@unlinfo.unl.edu> summ50@cse.unl.edu writes:
>>	Lurch/Mr. Hom is definately NOT played by Mick Fleetwood...
>>	they don't even look anything alike.
>>
	I just discovered that Mr. Homn was played by Carel Struycken
	in at least one episode of ST-TNG.  I wonder where I got Mick
	Fleetwood from? hmmmmm.

> 
>>|    Eric Elliott            summ50@cse.unl.edu         GEnie: E.ELLIOTT7   |
> 
> 
> 		andy
> -- 
> andy finkel		andy@cbmvax.commodore.com
Fred Heitkamp,  ** Not an organization.  My opinions only **

Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: das9674@usl.edu (Stephenson Daniel A)
Subject: Re: Commodore 486
Organization: University of Southwestern Louisiana
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1992 18:21:33 GMT

In article <1992Sep27.174651.3765@cs.mcgill.ca> jerry@cs.mcgill.ca (Gerald (Jerry) KUCH) writes:
>In article <James_Coulter.05pu@panam.wimsey.bc.ca> James_Coulter@panam.wimsey.bc.ca (James Coulter) writes:
>>Just found this in one of the local computer ads:
>>
>>Commodore 486DX 33Mhz
>>4MB Ram
>>100MB harddrive
>>3.5 and 5.25" floppies
>>101 Enhanced Keyboard
>>Overdrive Socket
>>Dos 5.0
>>Price: $1749Cdn.

Canadian? Sounds right.

>If it's a 486DX, what does it have an OverDrive Socket?

So you can buy a 80486DX2/66Mhz CPU chip and plop it in to use instead
of the 33mhz CPU.  It is proably one of those zero-insertion force things.

>>Monitor is NOT included.  No mention of what video comes with the system.
>>I sincerely hope that C= Canada's A4000 pricing will be similiar. :)

Ah, but it is still competitive.

>That price isn't too bad, I guess... although you could still save a bit
>on Honest Eddie's Generic Soldered Together on the Boat on the Way Over
>From the Far East clone...

No, probably not.

>>| James D. Coulter              FIDO    :1:153/911                       |
>
>
>-- 
> Jerry Kuch (jerry@cs.mcgill.ca) ----- SOMETHING NEAT SHOULD GO HERE.
> "I was wrong to play God.  Life is precious, not a thing to be toyed with.
>  Now take out that brain and flush it down the toilet."
>                  --- M. Burns  "Treehouse of Horror II"


--
*Dan Stephenson   das9674@usl.edu  
*
* "To conquer death, you only have to die,..."                   
*                             -Jesus , from _Jesus Christ Superstar_
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: etam@fraser.sfu.ca (Edwin Tam)
Subject: Re: A growing dislike for Amiga
Organization: Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 02:39:28 GMT

nwickham@nyx.cs.du.edu (Neal Wickham) writes:
>...and the resolution of Amiga text is the same as that of the Macs or
>VGA.  The problem is in the interlaced display.  But again it is a trade
>off with color staturation etc.  I have a friend who has both a NEC 
>Multisync monitor and a Sony Triniton RGB monitor because he does not
>want to give up color staturation for sharpness.

If you ever plan on adding an extra peripheral to your amiga, your
best investment is a deinterlacer (well, okay, maybe a ram+hd
controller is the best).  Once you have it, along with 2.0 to change
the font size, you'll never worry about a crappy CGAish display.  The
reason the standard display looks so bad is because of the visible
scan lines, without them, the display is 10x better.  No longer will
your eyes get tired of doing wp's on your amiga!

--- 
Edwin

Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: jhi@lk-hp-10.hut.fi (Jarkko Hietaniemi)
Subject: Re: Gee, thanks Commodore. :-I
Followup-To: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland
	<JHI.92Oct1193431@lk-hp-10.hut.fi>
Date: 02 Oct 92 07:14:33 GMT


jhi@lk-hp-10.hut.fi (Jarkko Hietaniemi):

jhi> Wide? Where?  If I ever see some software for Amiga (note that I do
jhi> not count games as software), they cost up from $80 to $300 a piece.
jhi> In a way I am glad it is not wider: I would be penniless after buying
jhi> all those.

Me followuping myself: actually I must have been thinking in GBP, not USD.
*The games* cost $80 - $100.  The real software costs from $100 up.
For example Maple V costs $600.  (I checked the facts this morning).
Make my day: how much does Maple V cost in the States?

++jhi;
From: DXB132@psuvm.psu.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: Black Belt vs the FCC
Date: 27 Sep 92 00:50:26 GMT
Organization: Penn State University

In article <James_Hastings-Trew.0lja@telepro.UUCP>,
James_Hastings-Trew@telepro.UUCP (James Hastings-Trew) says:

>In a message dated Sat 26 Sep 92  6:10, Pk-Asdg@cup.portal.com (perry S Kiv
>wrote:

>I find it very interesting indeed that you had that text at hand to include
>in your message. I also find it interesting that you just happen to have
>the FCC compliance BBS phone number and baud rate at your fingertips. Since
>ASDG markets no hardware that I am aware of, I wonder just what is your
>interest in this matter, or why you are so well versed in the "facts" of
>this case?

ASDG was founded as a hardware company and has developed many boards - some
of the first memory boards, the first serial board, an ethernet board,
probably many I've forgotten.

>own both programs, and I never use ADPro. This is not based on some silly
>notion that I dislike you or your company, or that my mind is closed. It is
>based on the fact that your product does not perform to my specifications,
>and theirs does. Simple.

Hmm, I don't know you but it sounds like you have a personal relationship
with the guys at Black Belt. If that's the case it's no wonder that
Imagemaster performs to _your_ specifications, since you are helping to
spec it.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: freire2a@serss0 (Angel Freire)
Subject: Near Future Amigas
Organization: Florida International University, Miami
Distribution: World
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 22:40:49 GMT
Summary: Need AGA in low end Amigas

Back when Commodore released the 500 and the 2000 they addressed
two very distinct and important needs. The 500 presented an
inexpensive option to purchase an Amiga with the possibility for
some limited future expansion. The 2000 provided the same Amiga
capabilities in a machine that was built around the concept of
expansion. It was trivial to add all the latest capabilities to
the machine.  Now we have the 4000 whose claim to fame is the
fabled AGA. I'd realy like to see this machine succeed (and expand
in capabilities; C= you promised!) and i'd like to see widespread
AGA support. Alas, with a price tag over $3000 this isn't going to
happen. What do I see as the solution? Simple. Reinvent the wheel.

C= needs to release a 500 type machine with AGA. They also need
to release a 2000 type machine with AGA (and Zorro III slots). I'd
sugest that they make the base processor an 020 or above but I don't
want the possible excuses: "It'll raise the price" or "We'd have to
extensively redesign the motherboard". both of which are bogus. but
lets keep things simple. Any thoughts?

Angel Freire
Florida International University
freire2a@serss0.fiu.edu

Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: barrett@iastate.edu (Marc N Barrett)
Subject: Re: The A4000 little-review
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, IA
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1992 17:54:03 GMT

In article <1992Oct2.152549.1342@msus1.msus.edu> martin@TIGGER.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU writes:
>In article <david.02xz@ariane.cam.org>, david@ariane.cam.org (David Lebel) writes:
>>   Another sad thing to note here; there's no flickerFixer in the A4000, so
>>even  if  you  activate  the  Mode  Promotion in IControl preferences, some
>>programs  will  force  15khz displays (the most "notorious" was DeluxePaint
>>IV).   Also,  for  the same reasons, to obtain a "flickerfixed" screen, you
>
>WHAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
>NO FLICKER FIXER!!!!!
>
>WHY!!!!!
>
>I finally thought it was settled by the 3000's release that the amber
>chip was gonna be a permenant family resident (or at least her children)
>
>WHY take it out???? yet another cost cut??  Please someone tell me that Dave
>here is wrong....please...please....

   The 'Amber' display enhancer that is in the A3000 has been removed from
the A4000 because it is not really needed.  Commodore has implemented a design
internally to the Lisa chip that performs most of the same functions of the
Amber display enhancer, but with the same limitations and a few more added.
Most standard NTSC and PAL modes except for the Super HiRes modes can be
"promoted" to modes with the same resolutions but on a flicker-free display.
Technically speaking, all interlaced modes can be promoted to flicker-free
except those with a frequency higher than 15Khz and those with a dot clock
of less than 70nS.  

   Because of these limitations, a new display enhancer is needed for the
A4000, because there are far too many modes that cannot be made flicker-free.
As I said, none of the Super HiRes modes can be made flicker-free, and none
of the Super72 modes can be made flicker-free either.  But putting the A3000's
Amber display enhancer into the A4000 would not have solved the problems, 
because it has the same limitations as the internal scan-doubling and promotion
feature.

>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>  Omega? NO!, Ameega?, NO!!, Ahmaga?, NOOOO!!!!!! A-M-I-G-A!!  jeeze...where
>                   have you been living....in the USA? :)       
>           Jim Martin   MATRIX -- If it's made, we sell it. Almost.
>A4000 Coming SOON!!, Real soon.                 MARTIN@TIGGER.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---
| Marc Barrett -MB-  |  email: barrett@iastate.edu
-----------------------------------------------------
  COLLEGE FOOTBALL COACH WANTED.  Absolutely *NO* qualifications required
(we'll take *ANYBODY*).  Contact the ISU athletic office for details.
From: dvan@spumco.cts.com (David Vandeven)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: RE:Amiga 4000 vs. Atari FALCON: Hooray, Lizardshit, FUCK!
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 92 01:27:33 PDT
Organization: SPUMCO:Better living through wasted time
Reply-To: whoever posted this thread first
X-Mailer: uAccess - Mac Release: 1.5


In article <ALANB.92Sep29123237@swordfish.sdl.mdcbbs.com>, alanb@sdl.mdcbbs.com (Alan Braggins) writes:
> >>>>> On Mon, 28 Sep 92 10:56:17 GMT, spamboy@illiterate.edu (Yeff Jung) said:
>                                       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> 
> >     Cyberpunk      * Frizzle Fry!"  (dvan@spumco.cts.com)      *PRIMUS!*  *
>                                        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> 
> David, you might want to try leaving your .sig off forged postings :-)
> --
> Alan Braggins, Shape Data (A Division of EDS Ltd), Cambridge, UK +44-223-316673
>    "Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced."
>  "My employer does not necessarily share my views - but I'm working on it."
> 

Really, I have NO idea how that got there ;)


 David Vandeven    ********************************************************
Systems Progammer  *   "I don't believe in Pinochle, I don't believe I'll *
    Deadhead       * try: I do believe in Captain Crunch, for I am the    *
    Cyberpunk      * Frizzle Fry!"  (dvan@spumco.cts.com)      *PRIMUS!*  *
Zen Agnostic Guru  ********************************************************