From: haines@eng2.eng.monash.edu.au (Andrew Haines, Civil, 1/113)
Subject: Re: Compulsory Voting/PR
Organization: Faculty of Engineering, Monash University 
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 02:09:45 GMT

In article <1992Jul24.003734.8903@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au> suter@fawlty7.eng.monash.edu.au (Mr D. Suter) writes:

>In article <miw.711856821@cc.uq.oz.au> miw@cc.uq.oz.au (Mark I. Williams) 
writes:
[further references omitted]
>>Actually, Kerry explained this quite well. It defeats most attempts to
>>rig the outcome by influencing the turnout.
>Not true. The normal laws stopping someone from turning up already
>defend this.

There are some things important enough to deserve some multiple redundancy - 
perhaps this is one of them.

>>What document enshrines your "right" to stay at home on voting day? The
>>law is full of examples where the freedom of the individual is abridged
>>for some presumed greater good of the many. e.g. Compulsory chest x-rays
>>and immunisation against TB. Compulsory schooling. Taxes. The list goes 
>>on.
>We are all aware of these examples. However, when introducing such a law,
>the onus is on the authorities to show that the law is for the greater
>good.

Yeah, I'm a closet anarchist too! :-)  Seriously though, I agree with your
general principal - but I doubt it gets much consideration in the real 
political process. 

[2 previous points omitted] 
> 3. Ultimately, the greater good has to be related to
>the number of INFORMED and ACTUALLY REASONED votes. All these statements
>about the relative numbers that turn out are irrelevant when you can't
>establish whether those that are forced (NOTE I SAID FORCED) to turn out 
>actually improve the electoral process rather than adding a bit of noise (
>random zero mean or biased) at the expense of inconvenience to them. 
>Indeed, the case to suggest that the extra votes actually placed are rather 
>likely to be just more noise is reasonably strong (i.e., if they
>can't be bothered voting when some small impediment, such as
>diverting their trip to the MCG via a polling booth; or if they
>were even determined NOT to vote, then it's hard to imagine
>that they feel strongly that a certain government is worth voting for).

Sorry - I think you are trying to have it both ways here.  If making the 
trip to vote is a "small impediment" what's the hassle with compulsory 
voting.  If it is not, then there may be a lot of "informed and actually 
reasoned" voters who DO need some prodding to make the effort.

>BTW - one more question regarding your above scenario.
>You think it's worth it (if an election HAS to be in the middle of 
>an English winter) to FORCE these ederly voters brave the cold EVEN IF
>they don't want to vote? Clearly, compulsory voting is NOT
>the answer to their dilemma - so why should it be an alternative for us?

[Pauses, puts on Don Quixote outfit, prepares to tilt at windmills :-)]
WHY does what the U.K. or the U.S. do on this issue matter to US?????
WHY do so many Aussies find it necessary/comforting to copy them?
[Get's down off high horse]

>The simple fact is that there are other means to ensure that election
>dates are not manipulated by a given party. 
>On the other hand. We have yet to hear a single good reason for
>compulsory voting.
>d.s.

I have yet to hear a single good reason AGAINST compulsory voting.
One reason (you judge if it's good) FOR compulsory voting is it does 
diminish potential vote buying.  ie the State promising to punish you if you 
don't make the effort to vote reduces (some of) the attractiveness of 
somebody promising to reward you if you make the effort to vote for them.

Taking an empirical view, personally I think our compulsory voting works 
reasonably well - certainly no worse than the U.K. or U.S. system.  (Any one 
want to make guesses as to the voter turnout in the coming U.S. elections - 
30% ?  Anyone going to claim that those 30% do a better job of electing 
representatives than our 90 - 100% do?).



Andrew Haines                       \ "You're all individuals!"
Computer Systems Officer              \ "WE'RE ALL INDIVIDUALS!"
Monash University, Melbourne, Australia \ "I'm not!" Monty Python:Life of Brian
Newsgroups: aus.politics