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Date:         Fri, 6 Nov 1992 15:39:00 EST
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From:         Liz Moreau <EMOREAU@UMASSD.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Trinity

>Hi everyone;
>  I have a question which I think might be of some interest.  In the
>Gospels, it is stated that when John the Baptist baptized Jesus the Holy
>Spirit descended on him in the form of a dove (Luke 3:21-22).  In Luke
>4:1 it says "Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit,...."
>  The question is: Does this mean Jesus, the second person of the Trintiy,
>did not have the Holy Spirit prior to His baptism?
>
>     In Christ
>     John Hart
>

>>Ian replies:
>>Jesus as a human being needed to be guided by the Holy Spirit who was
>>without the limmitations that Jesus imposed on himself..
>>Jesus recieved the Holy Spirit at his baptism in much the same way that the
>>people in the Upper Room (Acts 6 I think) received the Spirit - an empowering
>>for service.

I look at this all from a different view.  IMHO, the Spirit descended
on him in the form of a dove for the benefit of us.  So the crowd that
was gathered would believe and also because a sign was promised to John
the Baptist so he would know the Son of God.  Jesus didn't need an
empowering of the Holy Spirit, He was always a part of the Trinity.

                                        Liz
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Date:         Thu, 12 Nov 1992 08:04:15 CST
From:         Jesse Carnes <NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: WHAT WE OFFER GOD?
              11 Nov 1992 17:17:12 GMT from <gjm11@CUS.CAM.AC.UK>

Dear Gareth ;

I have studied Roman Catholicism, supposed evangelicalism, neo-Orthodoxy,
Eastern mysticism, relativism, and of course Calvinism.
I assure you, Rome is diametrically opposed to the "five-point" Calvinist,
in fact as I told one person on the net, there was a Catholic "big gun" who
said to the effect  "We have hopes of converting all people to the Catholic
Church, all except CALVINIST."

Further, I have studied "Under-the-Counter" ('Hard Ball') Catholic doctrinal
materials, published by the Jesuits.
Guaranteed mee mahn, Rome is as opposite to the "Doctrines of Grace" of
Calvinists as Madonna is to the pure wind-driven snow.  Hah, Hah, hah, hah ...
What a "funny" ... and serendipidous to boot!:-)


Jesse Carnes
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Date:         Tue, 10 Nov 1992 08:12:15 CST
From:         Jesse Irwin Carnes <NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Reply to James Kiefer

Dear James ;

Hey, thanks so much for the lovely music ... yuh know, this might be the
arrangement used in the recording I heard from the sountrack, "Chariots of
Fire."
I wish I had a 5 manual pipe organ with 32 foot stops and the Cambridge
Chorus with the boys choir ... in Westminster ... it would be glorious.

Again thanks.

Oh by the way, how long could I keep the book you sent to me?



By God's Sovereign and Majestic Grace;

Jesse Irwin Carnes
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Date:         Wed, 11 Nov 1992 08:09:27 CST
From:         Jesse Carnes <NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Pastor Bill where are you?

Dear Bill ;

Was it you that I sent the first in five installments on the "Saving Work of
Christ" (that I did on Christia about 6 months ago)?

I seemed to have forgotten to whom I was sending it.
If not you ... sorry for the trouble ... also, I sent this public, for I did
not write your E-mail address down.


Ever heartily yours in Christ ;

Jesse Irwin Carnes
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Date:         Fri, 13 Nov 1992 08:00:35 CST
From:         "Jesse (laughing all day) Carnes" <NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Defining `Free Will'
              12 Nov 1992 14:33:38 GMT from <kilroy@GBORO.GLASSBORO.EDU>

Dear Darren ;

If your presupposition were given serious entertaining on my part, then one
could also say that a person could not sufficiently understand, say, what
DEATH is until they had EXPERIENCED it.
This is analogous to the ol' "you can't understand an Indian until you have
gone a mile in his moccassins."  If that were true, then could Jesus have
sufficiently understood what sin was without experiencingit?  Hmmmm?

However, NICE faulty analogy on your part.

Lastly, if a person wants to believe in FREE WILL without any Scriptural
support, then mayby I will believe in the Kracken of Norway.
What do ye thinks?


Jesse Carnes
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Date:         Thu, 5 Nov 1992 09:10:51 CST
From:         Jesse Carnes <NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: CHRIST, NOT PURGATORY
              5 Nov 1992 07:53:30 -0700 from <DRAKE@ASUCHM.LA.ASU.EDU>

Mark ;

What I mean be "inherent righteousness" is taken from such phrases from the
Bible like "He alone is Righteous" and so forth (from the O.T.)
Jesus says that God alone is good ... he did nto mention angels, demons, or
man.  What you get on both accounts is that things like righteousness is a
natural intrinsic part of God's person ... of his nature.  It cannot be found
in man in this form, not even in pre-fall Adam.
Inherent righteousness is also denoted by an inability to commit evil.
God is "limited" in that He cannot do certain things:

1)  He cannot lie

2)  He cannot do evil

3)  He cannot break His Word

4)  He cannot create Diety (which would destroy His Omnipotence if He,
theoretically, could do so)

5)  He cannot be less than Self-sufficient

6)  He cannot contradict His personal nature


...an so forth.


In us, however we COULD have the ability to sin prior to the Fall, for we
do not have natures EQUAL with God's albeit we do have His image and we do
have part of His mind on paper (the Word of God).

Inherent Righteousness implies NO ABILITY to sin, nor any ability to be
seriously tempted  (as if God could teeter on the brink).
Inherency also implies no beginning of the trait, but that the trait was
eternally present.



Jesse Carnes
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Date:         Wed, 4 Nov 1992 08:30:00 CST
From:         "dr. Daniel Edward Taylor" <AUTENRKL@SLUVCA.SLU.EDU>
Subject:      The Great American Cure

    Well, folks we now have a new Pres. elect in the USofA.

    43% Clinton
    38% Bush
    19% Perot

    I just want to offer a word of incouragement to those of us that
    did not vote for the winner.
    47% of the people did NOT vote for the winner.
    Our voice is a voice that still needs to be heard (don't give up).
    I am offering the following song by Uncle Randy (Stonehill) to
    remind us that our life is not over...

    "The Great American Cure"

    i went to the doctor all nervous and crazy /
    i told him the way things were / he smiled
    quite nicely and without thinking twice he
    said / just try the great american cure

    put your brain in neutral / turn on the tele-
    vision set / kick off your shoes and don't
    worry / they haven't cut the power off yet

    so i went on home and i tried his prescrip-
    tion / i watched till my eyeballs dried / the
    good guys are winning i can't keep from grin-
    ning / and i dream about the tv guide

    put your brain in neutral / turn on the tele-
    vision set / kick off your shoes and don't
    worry / they haven't cut the power off yet

    .....

    so if you feel faint when you pick up the
    papers / if politics make you ill / if people
    upset you and high prices get you / and
    you're just too broke to purchase a thrill

    put your brain in neutral / turn on the tele-
    vision set / kick off your shoes and don't
    worry / they haven't cut the power off yet

    .....

    i went to the doctor all nervous and crazy /
    i told him the way things were / he smiled
    quite nicely and without thinking twice he
    said / just try the great american cure

    put your brain in neutral / turn on the tele-
    vision set / kick off your shoes and don't
    worry / they haven't cut the power off yet

    all night movies / think it's time to tune
    out / prime time boob tube / baby's getting
    burned out

    Written by Randy Stonehill
    on _The Sky is Falling_
    1980

-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-
kevin autenrieth            U N D E R   T H E   G A Z E   O F   G O D
autenrkl@sluvca.slu.edu             dr. Daniel Edward Taylor
-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-
 At the foot of the Cross -- Clouds, rain, fire -- on glassHouse records
From: AMZIMM01@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU (Angela Zimmerman)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Banning books
Date: 9 Nov 92 15:14:15 GMT
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Item Retrieval Assistant, DADS
Phone: 588-6757


>Ok, so I'm not exactly sure who this bozo is that Maks is saying
>has tried to term the BOOK 'x-rated', but I'd sure like to find out.

Same sort of bozo that tries to get the Satanic bible banned.  The only
difference is the religious belief.

>Ok, so here's the way I see this.  If any of you are my age, and want
>to raise a family, if this does come about, PLEASE ....for your future
>family's sake, put away a copy of God's Precious Word NOW...

I don't think there's much anyone can do to get the bible banned everywhere.
Too many Christians and liberals around.

>I think I have one at my parents' house, and I've got one here at School.
>IF I have to resort to literally "hiding" God's word, so that my friends,
>and later Children can be brought up in the nurture and admonition of the
>one who Saves and Heals, then so be it.

I don't think that will be necessary.  Just as an aside question, is there
anyone out there that has many copies of the bible?  I have around 10 myself,
about half of which were given to me by my former church.

>Why can't we find out who this Atheist is, and all post to him to tell him
>we're "praying for him anyway"?????
>He'd be rather shocked, don't you think?

No, he wouldn't be shocked.  If he's been vocal about his beliefs (like he
obviously has), he's probably been prayed for enough that it doesn't
bother him at all.  In fact, if he'd probably be offended if he were told
that you were praying for him.  After all, saying you will pray for him
is, in effect, telling him that you are better than him and he needs help
(from an atheist view...I tend to agree, although I understand why
Christians pray for people and I'm not offended by it anymore).

>The nation needs it.   Didn't HE say somewhere in Psalms or Proverbs that
>"I'll turn all nations into HELL that forget me." ????

That's a pretty harsh statement from a "loving" god.
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Fri, 13 Nov 1992 12:05:04 EDT
From:         Leo W <Leo_W@QM.CIRCA.UFL.EDU>
Subject:      Scripturette 11/13

"So you should not brag about men.  All things are yours: Paul, Apollos and
Peter; the world, life, death, the present, and the future -- all these things
are yours.  And you belong to Christ, and Christ belongs to God" (1 Corinthians
3:21-23).

"Yes, I am sure that nothing can separate us from the love God has for us.  Not
death, not life, not angels, not ruling spirits, nothing now, nothing in the
future, no powers, nothing above us, nothing below us, or anything else in the
whole world will ever be able to separate us from the love of God that is in
Christ Jesus our Lord" (Romans 8:38,39).

Yours in Christ Jesus,
Leo

Scriptures quoted from the International Children's Bible (ICB), New Century
Version, copyright 1986, 1988 by Word Publishing, Dallas, Texas 75039.  Used by
permission.
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Date:         Sat, 7 Nov 1992 11:54:00 -0400
From:         STYLESBG@WATT.CCS.TUNS.CA
Subject:      Re: Help Wanted:

Hi David,  Pastor Bill here.  Just a few thots:
1.  You are ecxtremely busy,  so try to set a few reachable goals and meety them
   Otherwise,  you will feel like a failure if you set a few mtns that are un-
reachable.  You know how much time and energy it takes to do your job prperly,
and your school work, and etc.  I will join others in praying that you will be
sensitive as you plan out goals and make plans to meet them;
2.  Enlist others' helpo,  see Eph 4 and other portions which talk about body
ministry and each joint supplyiong LIFE to the whole;
3.  Let nothing come between you and your time alone in the Word of God preferab
   ly at the start of each day.  You will find giving you abilities in organizat
   ionetc etc far beyond your years of experience,  see Proverbs 16:1,  and also
    Prov 4.
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
From: billc@housing.msstate.edu (Bill Chapman)
Subject: Re: Whose will is dominant?
Organization: Housing Department, Mississippi State University
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 03:20:22 GMT

In article <01GR185ZYX2A8WXD2M@ZENO.MSCD.EDU> MARCHIBOLD@MSCD.BITNET writes:
>Date:         Wed, 11 Nov 1992 17:42:19 -0600
>From:         MARCHIBOLD@MSCD.BITNET
>Subject:      Re: Whose will is dominant?
>Just a thought on this thread.  Eric's point about how man was created
>reminded me that God created man in His own image.  Doesn't that imply
>some sort of free will or self determination, not to mention the events
>and commands and breaking of commands which followed.
>
>Just wondering
>
>Molly Archibold

Molly, you have perhaps given insight to a technicality that may help us in 
this "free will" dialog.  (Or what is the correct word for two monologs?)

Suppose Adam was an individual, the head of the race of mankind 
(personkind?).  Suppose he had the kind of unfettered free will that Eric
has been describing, and that his free choice would determine the state
of the wills of all his posterity.  Having made the free choice to disobey 
God, all his posterity would be subject to the results of the curse.  Their
entire natures would be fallen, and their free choices would be in bondage 
to their fallen natures.  Free, indeed, but not in the sense Adam was free.

Maybe Eric is describing Adam's free will, and Jesse that of Adam's 
offspring.

--
Bill Chapman, Box 1262, Mississippi State, MS  39762
<BillC@Housing.MSState.edu>           (601) 325-2042
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Date:         Tue, 10 Nov 1992 15:28:04 CST
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From:         JLong <JLONG@UA1VM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Point to Eric.

I agree with Eric!!!!!

Janie
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
From: gjm11@cus.cam.ac.uk (G.J. McCaughan)
Subject: Re: Defining `Free Will'
Organization: U of Cambridge, England
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 16:16:40 GMT

In article <CHRISTIA%92111307084509@ASUACAD.BITNET> "Jesse (laughing all day) Carnes" <NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET> writes:
>Dear Darren ;
>
>If your presupposition were given serious entertaining on my part, then one
>could also say that a person could not sufficiently understand, say, what
>DEATH is until they had EXPERIENCED it.
>This is analogous to the ol' "you can't understand an Indian until you have
>gone a mile in his moccassins."  If that were true, then could Jesus have
>sufficiently understood what sin was without experiencingit?  Hmmmm?

1. I think it's reasonable to assume that Jesus's ability to understand
people's ideas without experiencing them is better than yours.
2. What do you think he was doing on the cross, anyway?
3. What Darren is actually saying is that you appear not to understand
what your "opponents" are saying, which means that your arguments against
their position are bound to be flawed.

>Lastly, if a person wants to believe in FREE WILL without any Scriptural
>support, then mayby I will believe in the Kracken of Norway.
>What do ye thinks?

I think that there is a lot more evidence for free will than for the Kraken.
I think that the idea that one shouldn't ever believe anything unless it's
in the Bible is preposterous, since for instance it means I shouldn't believe
in your existence any more than in the Kraken.
I think that the patronising tone of your postings suggests that you think
everyone who disagrees with you is incredibly stupid, and I find that rather
unfortunate since I happen to know that many of them are not.

What do you think?

-- 
Gareth McCaughan     Dept. of Pure Mathematics & Mathematical Statistics,
gjm11@cus.cam.ac.uk  Cambridge University, England.    [Research student]
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Tue, 10 Nov 1992 15:23:49 CST
From:         THERESA BLACKWELL <TBLACKWL@USMCP6.BITNET>
Subject:      Setting NOMAIL for a little bit, gang.

I know I just got back on here recently, but... there is another list
I subbed to earlier in the semester which would serve my Music Industry
courses well.  NOT that Christia hasn't helped me grow, it HAS, and I'm
JUST setting NOMAIL for a week or so, until I can find out some pertinent
information which is happening in the industry right now.
One of the bits I seek is concerning a favorite percussionist of mie.
(that's "mine"...)
I'll set MAIL probably in the next few weeks, or IF I DON'T, you'll
see me after Thanksgiving break, ok?
God Bless you all, and each of you may post me privately if you have
prayer requests, encourging stuff, etc.  Hate to do this, but the classes
need some attention right now!
Carol Nemec:  KEEP Sending me mail.... (hug)
Noel Bell: Same for you, ok?
Shelby: God Bless you, sis... pray for me willya?
Steven and Madge: Keep this great list going, and I'll remember you two
in my prayers the next few weeks...
Ian: Send me postal mail ASAP... can't wait to hear from you.
EVERYONE ELSE: Keep looking up, HE's on his way REALLY SOON...
Signing off for now...see you after Thanksgiving!!! Have a good one, too.
AND DON'T EAT TOO MUCH! :) ;)
"G"
 Theresa

 * <TBLACKWL@USMCP6.BITNET>
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Date:         Tue, 10 Nov 1992 14:53:38 CST
From:         Jesse Carnes <NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: WHAT WE OFFER GOD?
              10 Nov 1992 14:00:11 CST from <sweberg@GARFIELD.WES.ARMY.MIL>

Dear Scott (AKA, the new kid on the block) ;

One question :

"Do you believe that Christ died as a Sin-substitute for whom He died?"
If so, then HOW can the Father punish anyone whose sins were done away with
by Christ, if indeed He satisfied the Justice of the Father for ALL of their
sins ... thereby leaving no punishment left for anyone ... assuming that
you believe that Christ died for everyone to the man?"

Further, how would you cope with the problem of the Unpardonable Sin, since
you say that Christ died for every person?  Remember, this sin is without
forgiveness, by the words of Christ Himself.
Either, this sin was TOO POWERFUL for the blood of Christ to Atone for, or
it was not within the Scope of His death ... so which do you choose?
Is any sin too powerful for Christ's blood to Atone for.

Even further, if Christ died for all without exception, then how do we
deal with Christ's own words when He said that "it is the will of the Father
that I should lose NONE of WHOM He has GIVEN to me"?
You see, if Jesus did REALLY die for all without exception, then a problem
arises if we say that some people die without Christ.  For if they die
as unbelievers, and yet Jesus said that he would lose NONE of those given
to Him by the Father, then either :

1)  Jesus lied

2) or, All people were not included among ALL those GIVEN to Him by the
Father. (SEE John 6:38-40; 65).


Logically, Jesus could not have been a substitute for all ... PAID the
debt owed to the Father's Justice for sins incurred ... and yet have some
of these people die and go to Hell.  Why?
Jesus actually accomplished EXPIATION of sins by His blood, and thereby also
accomplished PROPITIATION of the Father's wrath, by His suffering and death
in the place of sinners.

Problem is :  If Jesus accomplished REAL Atonement for these People ...
assuming you mean all without exception, then All would necessarily HAVE
to stand as Justified in Christ ... without any being left our.
In short, no one would die and go to Hell, since Christ took their sins,
suffered the penalty for them, and propitiated the Father's wrath.


Another problem :  Paul states that "Now one die for ALL , and therefore
ALL died."
If we think that Jesus died for all without exception, then the above verse
means that All persons on earth have been joined to Christ and have died to
their former lives and sinful natures.
How do we deal with this?



Jesse Carnes
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Date:         Wed, 11 Nov 1992 12:42:31 CST
From:         Jesse Carnes <NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Richard P. Grant, I presume!

Dear Richard;

Just a little "fail-safe" device to find out whether my private E-mail
post made it to you.I am on Bitnet, you see.
Sorry 'bout the public post, here.


In Christ ;

Jesse Irwin Carnes
From: EMOREAU@UMASSD.BITNET (Liz Moreau)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: Dark Majesty
Date: 6 Nov 92 19:49:00 GMT
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Can someone please give a brief summary of the book?

Thanks!

                                        Liz
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Date:         Wed, 11 Nov 1992 14:45:15 CST
From:         Yvette Traylor <YST1@DCCCDBIT.BITNET>
Subject:      Listserv Group List

Would it be possible for someone to send me a up to date copy of the
Listserv Group List? The one on or system is very old. Thanks in
advance.

   Yvette Traylor     "We are His people and the sheep of his pasture."
   Dallas County Community College District             Psalm 100:3
   Computer Programmer/Analyst from Dallas - Texas
"I know worse things about myself that you will ever say about me." Anon