From: rohwerwd@netcom.com (W. David Rohwer)
Subject: Re: Unfounded Biblical Faith
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 92 07:09:32 GMT
Organization: Netcom - San Jose, CA

In article <18138@oasys.dt.navy.mil> lung@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Terence Lung) writes:
>>In article <srqjlpn.rohwerwd@netcom.com> rohwerwd@netcom.com (W. David Rohwer)
>>writes:
>>     As you should know by now, the Bible contains many contradictions
>>and errors and as a consequence does not stand up to logic.  
>>
>>     Ok, I will list two.
>>     Number 1:  The two creation stories in Genesis.
>
>Why, praytell, do you think these two creation stories are incompatible?
>When you say contradicting, I thought you'd come up with saying that in
>the first story, the sky was created on Day 2 and in the second story,
>the sky was created on Day 3.  
>

     They are very incompatiable.  Genesis 1 is divided in days while
Genesis 2 is not.  If one refers to my previous post, one should see
that the order of events between Gen 1 and Gen 2 are different and
two events that occurred in Gen 1 did not occur in Gen 2 and one event
that occurred in Gen 2 did not occur in Gen 1.  If one uses Gen 1 as a
base, then the Gen 2 acts would be occur in the order: 1, 2, 4, 6, 3 and 7.
If one uses Gen 2 as a base, then the Gen 1 days would occur in the order:
1, 3, 6, 3, 5/6 and 6.  Since the orders are not equivalent, Gen 1 and
Gen 2 contradict each other.


>Yes.  I can see that there are differences.  If they were the same,
>one would have Chp 1 followed by Chp 1.  Are they contradictory if
>they are different?

     Yes, they are contradictory.  See my first paragraph.


>  Tell me if the following two statements are
>different.
>  1.  The Allied powers won WWII.
>  2.  The Axis powers lost WWII.
>Yes.  They are different!  (For starters, there is a different subject
>in each.)  Are they contradictory?  Are they illogical?

     Textually, the two statements are different.  However, since one
knows that the Allied powers fought the Axis powers during WWII, one
can logically conclude that statements 1 and 2 are equivalent.  Because 
your example does not relate to the comparison between Gen 1 and Gen 2,
your example is useless.


>What do you mean by contradiction?
>

     When I use contradiction, I mean "Inconsistency or discrepency" or
"Two things related in such a way that it is impossible for both to be
true".


>>     Number 2: Changeability of God.
>>          1)  In at least 12 verses, the Bible states that God is
>>              unchangeable: Num 23:19, 1 Sa 25:29, Job 36:5, Ps 33:11,
>>                            Ps 89:34, Ps 102:27, Ps 110:4, Mal 3:6
>>                            Tit 1:2, Heb 6:17-18, Heb 13:8, Jas 1:17.
>>          2)  In two books, God gave Moses the "Eye for Eye, Tooth for
>>              Tooth" law: Lev 24:17-20, Dt 19:21.
>>          3)  In Mt 5:38-40:  Jesus says, "..."
>>       As one can see, God changes between 2 and 3 which causes a
>>       contradiction of 1. 
>The change between 2 and 3 merely substantiates God's promise of a
>change in covenant.  What does not change is God's promise and His
>faithfulness to His promises.  The Law changed.  God did not change.
>

     I disagree.  For example: I can not change.  Somebody asks me what
2 + 2 is equal to.  At first, I answer "5" and then 5 minutes later I
say that "I answered 5 before, however now I answer 4".  The two answers
that I gave contradict each other.  During the time between my first
answer and my second answer, my mind changed which means that I changed.
As one can see, my first statement "I can not change" contradicts my
last statement "I changed".  By changing the Law, like I did with
my answers "5" and "4", God changes.


>>     Sure there is a major difference between the creation story and
>>science.  In Genesis 1, the creation story states that God created
>>vegetation one day before God created the Sun.  From the biology classes
>>that I took, vegetation can not live without the Sun.  Therefore, 
>>vegetation could not have been created before the Sun.  The universe
>>was not created in six days as stated in Genesis 1.
>
>1.  Your biology classes are apparently flawed.  Some of us know that
>there is vegetation at the bottom of the ocean that lives quite well
>without the Sun.  Some live entirely off volcanic energy.

     Gen 1:11 says that the vegetation was land vegetation.  Land
vegetation can not survive or grow without sunlight.

>2.  Creation in six days?  The theory of relativity makes this all
>very relative.  If a clock in orbit goes one second slower than a 
>clock on earth in the course of one year in orbit, and if a man
>travelling in space, a couple parsecs away ages one year while his
>friends on earth pass away in the same course of a thousand years
>on earth, why can't six days a heavenly distance away be recorded
>as four billion years on this planet?

     The theory of relativity has nothing to do with this discussion.
I would expect God, if he is so perfect, to impart his knowledge
and wisdom in a way that humans can understand.  So, if he says that
something took one day, then to humans that something took one day.
In other words, the scales are the same.
 

>3.  Does your definition of God include omnipotence?  If it does,
>why do you limit your conceptions of what God can or cannot do?
>This is His creation, not yours.
>

     I don't know if my definition of God includes omnipotence.

     For the sake of argument, let us say that God is omnipotent.  God
can do anything that he wants.  It follows that God can tell the truth
or lie, do good or do evil, etc. and I believe that God does good and
evil.  Christians, by saying that God is all good are limiting God
and saying that God is not omnipotent.

>>     The virgin birth is a false miracle.
>I don't know about this one.  I'd assume that if Jesus fulfilled 
>so many of the other prophecies very literally, it takes no giant
>leap of faith to extrapolate that he fulfilled this one too.
>

     Well, apparently because all of the other religions except
Christianity do not accept Jesus as God, they think that the leap
of faith is too great and/or they know that Jesus did not fulfill
any prophecy.

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