HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: tor.news.stats
From: news@ecf.toronto.edu (News Administrator)
Subject: skule.ecf nntp summary
Date: 23 Nov 92 05:08:04 GMT

NNTP log summary from Nov 22 00:02:22 to Nov 23 00:01:42

Article Reception        Offered      Took         Toss         Fail
Contacting Host           To Us    Total  Pct   Total  Pct   Total  Pct
helios.physics               10       10 100%       0   0%       0   0%
epas                          7        7 100%       0   0%       0   0%
jarvis.csri               10813     4679  43%    6134  57%       0   0%
torn.onet.on.ca            9676     9418  97%     258   3%       0   0%
------------------------- -----    ----------   ----------   ----------
TOTALS                    20506    14114  69%    6392  31%       0   0%

Article Transmission     Offered              Took           Toss       Fail
Host Contacted       Total  Minutely  Total Minutely Pct  Total  Pct Total  Pct
helios.physics       10902    9.90     9793   8.62   90%   1109  10%     0   0%
epas                 10998   11.75    10998  11.75  100%      0   0%     0   0%
jarvis.csri           9150   29.12     1269   0.98   14%   7881  86%     0   0%
drill.me             11562   329.43    11458  329.42   99%      0   0%   104   1%
torn.onet.on.ca         18    0.01       17   0.01   94%      1   6%     0   0%
-------------------- ---------------  ------------------  ---------- ----------
TOTALS               42630   76.04    33535  70.16   79%   8991  21%   104   0%

Outgoing Transmission Connexions         ------errors-------
System                     Conn    OK    NS   Net   Rmt  Pct
helios.physics              110   110     0     0     0   0%
epas                        110   110     0     0     0   0%
jarvis.csri                  92    92     0     0     0   0%
drill.me                    115   115     0     0     0   0%
torn.onet.on.ca               1     1     0     0     0   0%
------------------------- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----
TOTALS                      428   428     0     0     0   0%

nntpd timeouts
helios.physics                4

Refused connexions
130.158.80.4                  1
From: kenh@sail.LABS.TEK.COM (Ken Hillen)
Newsgroups: tek.general,or.general
Subject: OmniTek Computers Recomendation
Date: 19 Nov 92 18:17:15 GMT
Followup-To: poster
Distribution: or
Organization: Tektronix Inc., Beaverton, Or.

I recently went looking for an Apple computer.  While I was surprised to find
the most of the local dealers were at or below the mail order companies, I
found that OmniTek Computers gave me both the best price and the best service
I have received from a computer store in a long time.

If you are looking for a new computer, be sure to call OmniTek for a price
check.

Ken Hillen
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
The opinions expressed here and mine and not those of my employer.
From: kenh@sail.LABS.TEK.COM (Ken Hillen)
Newsgroups: or.general,tek.general
Subject: Re: OmniTek Computers Recomendation
Date: 20 Nov 92 00:48:06 GMT
Followup-To: poster
Distribution: or
Organization: Tektronix Inc., Beaverton, Or.

In my previous message I should have mentioned that OmniTek is getting out of
the retail business and as a result they are selling things at good prices.  
I think this is the last week of their sale, so act fast.  The only store 
they still have open is the east side store.

Ken Hillen
Xref: sparky or.general:717 pdx.general:1344 ogi.general:38
From: markh@sag4.ssl.berkeley.edu (Mark Hurwitz)
Newsgroups: or.general
Subject: Prop. 5
Date: 17 Nov 92 21:02:55 GMT
Article-I.D.: agate.1ebmlvINNoc9
Distribution: or
Organization: Space Science Labs
NNTP-Posting-Host: sag4.ssl.berkeley.edu


	I would very much appreciate it if some one would post
or email to me a short summary of the recently-passed Prop. 5.

Thanks in advance,
-Mark
From: kvs@adpgate.UUCP (Karl V. Schroeder)
Newsgroups: or.test
Subject: Test
Date: 19 Nov 92 17:00:05 GMT
Article-I.D.: flux.1751
Distribution: or
Organization: ADP Dealer Services R&D, Portland, OR

This is a test!

--
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
     Karl Schroeder		        |                _  |\ __
     ADP Dealer Services		|  _____________/_\_\|/_/
     Portland, Or. 97201		| |__________________|
 email:					|             /  _  \    1992
     adpgate!kvs@phx.mcd.mot.com	| ATLANTA    /  |_>  \   National
 phone:					| BRAVES!!  /   |_>   \  League
      (503)-294-4200 ext. 2331		|          /___________\ Champs!
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: gonzalem@ucs.orst.edu (Mario Gonzales)
Newsgroups: or.test
Subject: test test test
Date: 19 Nov 92 03:24:49 GMT
Article-I.D.: talon.1ef1e1INN2nn
Organization: University Computing Services - Oregon State University
NNTP-Posting-Host: ucs.orst.edu
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]


Test #2

Mario
--

University Computing Services
Oregon State University
From: gonzalem@ucs.orst.edu (Mario Gonzales)
Newsgroups: or.test
Subject: TEST TEST TEST
Date: 19 Nov 92 03:24:25 GMT
Article-I.D.: talon.1ef1d9INN2nn
Organization: University Computing Services - Oregon State University
NNTP-Posting-Host: ucs.orst.edu
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]


A Test #1

Mario
--

University Computing Services
Oregon State University
Newsgroups: or.politics,alt.politics.clinton,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.elections,ba.politics,co.politics,ne.politics,nj.politics,ny.politics,talk.politics.misc
From: bud@kentrox.uucp (Bud Couch)
Subject: Re: Ignorance - Was Re: VOTE, BABY, VOTE!
Organization: ADC Kentrox, Portland OR
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1992 22:21:55 GMT

In article <BxMJG5.K41@slipknot.rain.com> robert@slipknot.rain.com.UUCP (Robert Reed) writes:
>In article <lTC=T5-@engin.umich.edu> jwh@citi.umich.edu writes:
>|
>|They shouldn't, because corporations shouldn't be paying taxes in
>|the first place.  Corporations don't pay taxes, people pay taxes.
>|A corporate tax is a bad tax because it isn't easy to determine
>|who is actually paying the tax.  It could be customers, in the form
>|of higher prices, it could be workers, because of fewer job
>|opportunities, it could be investors, in the form of lower dividends,
>|or some combination.
>
>Fine.  You figure out a way to prevent corporate trustees from shifting their
>wealth to corporate assets (the limos, cars, boats, houses, etc.) of which they
>are the direct beneficiaries, thus avoiding the tax on income that they would
>otherwise need to purchase these luxuries, then at least I might begin to
>consider the worth of your suggestion.

I agree that far too much (read: just about any) corporate resources go to
enhance the personal comfort of those at the top of the food chain, but 
considering that *every one* of the "bennies" that you enumerated above is
a deductible expense in corporate tax terms, it's really not much of an 
argument against the elimination of corporate income taxes. 

What you are really arguing for is the taxation, at the personal income tax
level, of the value of those benefits and perquisites. I agree. I'd be perfectly
willing to pay taxes on, say, my health insurance, as long as I was assured that
Lee Iacooca, et al, were paying taxes on that Lear (or even the differential
between coach and first class airfare).
-- 
  Bud Couch - ADC/Kentrox    | That which does not kill me makes me strong.  |
 If my employer only knew... |                              -Nietzsche       |
   standard BS applies	     | ... but why risk it?  - me                    |
Newsgroups: or.politics,alt.politics.clinton,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.elections,ba.politics,co.politics,ne.politics,nj.politics,ny.politics,talk.politics.misc
From: jwh@citi.umich.edu (Jim Howe)
Subject: Re: Ignorance - Was Re: VOTE, BABY, VOTE!
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 92 11:22:32 EST
Organization: IFS Project, University of Michigan
Reply-To: jwh@citi.umich.edu

In article <Bxqp3x.3Bq@slipknot.rain.com>, robert@slipknot.rain.com (Robert Reed) writes:
|> In article <1992Nov13.235123.5274@ucsu.Colorado.EDU> fcrary@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (Frank Crary) writes:
|> |In article <BxMwz5.Lo6@slipknot.rain.com> robert@slipknot.rain.com.UUCP (Robert Reed) writes:
|> |>|Companies that provide a safer work environment will be able to 
|> |>|attract more workers than those who don't, assuming workers value safety.
|> |
|> |>That assumes that there are competitive businesses within a particular job
|> |>market that would choose to differentiate themselves to draw a work force
|> |>from the local job pool.
|> |
|> |Or that the employees can form unions. They are quite capable of this.
|> 
|> That assumes that there is enough shortage of labor to allow organizing to be
|> effective.  Scabbing will kill a union quicker than anything, so unions are
|> no guarantee of worker power.
|> 

'Scabbing' simply means that there are enough workers who feel that the
benefit of belonging to the union is outweighed by other factors.  It
tells me that the union isn't doing a good job of justifying itself.
Unions should be like any other service, they survive only if they
are meeting the needs of their customers.


James W. Howe                  internet: jwh@citi.umich.edu
University of Michigan             uucp: uunet!mailrus!citi.umich.edu!jwh
Ann Arbor, MI   48103-4943         
Xref: sparky or.politics:658 alt.politics.clinton:17327 alt.politics.democrats.d:598 alt.politics.elections:24005 ba.politics:7179 co.politics:2127 ne.politics:3019 nj.politics:747 ny.politics:267 talk.politics.misc:60537
From: borden@head-cfa.harvard.edu (Dave Borden)
Newsgroups: or.politics,alt.politics.clinton,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.elections,ba.politics,co.politics,ne.politics,nj.politics,ny.politics,talk.politics.misc
Subject: Re: VOTE, BABY, VOTE!
Date: 16 Nov 92 18:33:36 GMT
Reply-To: borden@m5.harvard.edu
Organization: Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory, Cambridge, MA,  USA

In article <1992Nov11.021509.2727@oracle.us.oracle.com> mfriedma@uucp (Michael Friedman) writes:
>In article <1992Nov10.143036.2167@m5.harvard.edu> borden@m5.harvard.edu writes:
>>In article <1992Nov7.183308.14033@ucsu.Colorado.EDU> fcrary@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (Frank Crary) writes:
>
>>>The interest on the debt benefits no one, rich or poor (and is more than
>>>15%...)
>
>>The interest on the debt benefits those who are wealthy enough to hold a
>>sufficiently large amount of government bonds.  Those who can save enough
>>tens of thousands of dollars in government bonds to exceed what they pay in
>>taxes to pay that interest greatly benefit from that interest.  
>
>DING!!!!  Another person who doesn't understand economics.
>
>Frank, the US debt is auctioned off.  If it is really a good deal - if
>the people holding it really benefited significantly - then the market
>price of the bonds would go up and people would no longer be able to
>buy them at a price which let them benefit significantly.

It wasn't Frank who said that the debt benefits the wealthy - it was me.

>Yes, people with bonds get interest.  On the other hand, they have
>their money in a relatively illiquid investment and they are exposed
>to significant risk - if interest rates go up the value of their bond
>will decrease.  

Well, no one is forcing them to buy government bonds, so they must think
that it's worth their while to buy them, in other words, that they will
benefit by purchasing government bonds.  Otherwise, why would they buy them?
Probably because they're a very secure investment - the US federal government
isn't likely to default on its debts.  In any case, the money _does_ flow
from those who pay taxes to those who hold bonds, with absolute certainty.

>Note, by the way, that this means that as soon as anyone buys
>government bonds it is in their interest to persuade the government to
>stop borrowing any more money so that there will be fewer bonds
>available and the ones in their greedy little hands are worth more.

Well, they haven't been very successful, apparently.

>In short, you don't know what you are talking about.

Now, now.  Mind your manners, please.

    - Dave Borden
      borden@m5.harvard.edu
Newsgroups: or.politics,alt.politics.clinton,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.elections,ba.politics,co.politics,nj.politics,ny.politics,talk.politics.misc
From: ssoar@tekig5.pen.tek.com (Steven E Soar)
Newsgroups: or.politics,alt.politics.clinton
Subject: More on Unions...
Summary: more to it...
Date: 17 Nov 92 16:00:26 GMT
Followup-To: or.politics

> 'Scabbing' simply means that there are enough workers who feel that the
> benefit of belonging to the union is outweighed by other factors.  It
> tells me that the union isn't doing a good job of justifying itself.
> Unions should be like any other service, they survive only if they
> are meeting the needs of their customers.
> 
> 
> James W. Howe                  internet: jwh@citi.umich.edu
> University of Michigan             uucp: uunet!mailrus!citi.umich.edu!jwh
> Ann Arbor, MI   48103-4943         


Not really.  Reagan demonstrated how to kill unions.  All it takes is for the
entire power of government to be arrayed against them.  Staff the Justice
dept and the NLRB with corporate apologists to appease your big biz buddies.
Then run huge deficits which requires the Fed to pursue tight money policy.
This will raise the level of what economists call the "natural level of
umemployment."  

With so many people clamoring for so few jobs, and no protection (or even
even-handed treatment) at the government level, no union could long survive.

This is not a free market system, as you imply.  It is a playing field canted
strongly against the worker, which is what Reagan's corporate supporters had
in mind.

steve soar

Newsgroups: or.politics,alt.politics.clinton,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.elections,ba.politics,co.politics,nj.politics,ny.politics,talk.politics.misc
From: robert@slipknot.rain.com (Robert Reed)
Subject: Re: Ignorance - Was Re: VOTE, BABY, VOTE!
Reply-To: robert@slipknot.rain.com.UUCP (Robert Reed)
Organization: Home Animation Ltd.
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 03:17:33 GMT

In article <fLG=_R#@engin.umich.edu> jwh@citi.umich.edu writes:
|In article <Bxy32o.Bvw@slipknot.rain.com>, robert@slipknot.rain.com (Robert Reed) writes:
|| 
||Excuse me, but all of that is pure bu####it if a union can't get you a job and
||make sure you survive to perform it.
|
|If a union can't get me a job, why would I want to belong?  Of course,
|if the union offered other services and used its potentially massive
|resources to offer other services I might still join.  I'm not quite
|clear on what it is you are complaining about.  All I'm saying is that
|people would be much more likely to join a union if they thought it
|was truely worthwhile.  A union, being a large group of people, could
|use its potential purchasing power to provide services in addition to
|contract negotiation.

Once again, we have the problem of a migrating proposition.  I joined this
discussion to oppose the claim that plant safety concerns could be handled
merely by allowing the free market to determine where workers would choose
to work.  We talked about regional isolation and government intervention,
and then someone suggested that it could be handled by union organization.
My point is that it can't.
________________________________________________________________________________
Robert Reed			Home Animation Ltd.		503-656-8414
robert@slipknot.rain.com	5686 First Court, West Linn, OR 97068

I try never to be alone with a beautiful woman, because when I'm alone, the
devil in me becomes dangerous.
--Tiny Tim
________________________________________________________________________________
Newsgroups: or.politics,alt.politics.clinton,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.elections,ba.politics,co.politics,ne.politics,nj.politics,ny.politics,talk.politics.misc
From: robert@slipknot.rain.com (Robert Reed)
Subject: Re: VOTE, BABY, VOTE!
Reply-To: robert@slipknot.rain.com.UUCP (Robert Reed)
Organization: Home Animation Ltd.
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 10:34:30 GMT

In article <1992Nov17.160219.7791@m5.harvard.edu> borden@m5.harvard.edu writes:
|
|We don't have an overpopulation problem yet.  We could have one someday, in
|fact we will if things don't get under control, but we're not at a crisis
|point yet.

Nuh-uh-uh.  In fact, I think it was just today that a group representing 150
Nobel Laureates had a press conference to announce their concerns about
population and destruction of the world ecosystem.  Their claim is that we need
to make significant changes to our collective behavior in this generation or
risk catastrophic changes to the world environment.

|Just go out to Wyoming or Montana, and you'll see that there's
|still plenty of room.  People are crowded together because they choose to
|live in popular areas.  (Or perhaps are forced to live in those areas by
|economic necessity, that is, the jobs are there.)

The threat is NOT from overcrowding, but from resource depletion and pollution,
which are starting to cause real problems, even in Wyoming and Montana.

|I acknowledge the need to control population growth, but I will fiercely
|oppose population control by force, until it becomes absolutely, absolutely
|necessary.

It is already absolutely necessary.  If you cannot yet detect the symptoms, I
dare say nothing will ever convince you.

|There is a tremendous amount we can do through education first.  The biggest
|population problems are in third world countries, where people generally
|aren't well educated as to birth control, or don't have access to it.

The greatest OVERCROWDING is in the third world, but cruel as it may sound,
overpopulation here is not as much of a problem because these populations have
not acquired the technology to prevent mass starvation, and so are still
subject to the natural retardants to population growth.

Populations in the highly industrialized countries, however, have sufficient
technology to shield themselves from the immediate effects of resource
depletion, at least temporarily on the global time scale.  But in the lag
between our resource consumption and its eventual effects, we consume per
capita much much more nonrenewable resources than third world populations and
so exacerbate the problem much more quickly than they do.  Population control
in the developed countries therefore has and will have a much more significant
impact on the problems our planetary population faces.
________________________________________________________________________________
Robert Reed			Home Animation Ltd.		503-656-8414
robert@slipknot.rain.com	5686 First Court, West Linn, OR 97068

With a woman president, there would never be any wars, just every 28 days
some intense negotiations.
--Robin Williams
________________________________________________________________________________
Newsgroups: or.politics,alt.politics.clinton,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.elections,ba.politics,co.politics,nj.politics,ny.politics,talk.politics.misc
From: jwh@citi.umich.edu (Jim Howe)
Subject: Re: Ignorance - Was Re: VOTE, BABY, VOTE!
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 92 10:46:56 EST
Organization: IFS Project, University of Michigan
Reply-To: jwh@citi.umich.edu

In article <BxzvtA.E50@slipknot.rain.com>, robert@slipknot.rain.com (Robert Reed) writes:
|> In article <fLG=_R#@engin.umich.edu> jwh@citi.umich.edu writes:
|> |In article <Bxy32o.Bvw@slipknot.rain.com>, robert@slipknot.rain.com (Robert Reed) writes:
|> || 
|> ||Excuse me, but all of that is pure bu####it if a union can't get you a job and
|> ||make sure you survive to perform it.
|> |
|> |If a union can't get me a job, why would I want to belong?  Of course,
|> |if the union offered other services and used its potentially massive
|> |resources to offer other services I might still join.  I'm not quite
|> |clear on what it is you are complaining about.  All I'm saying is that
|> |people would be much more likely to join a union if they thought it
|> |was truely worthwhile.  A union, being a large group of people, could
|> |use its potential purchasing power to provide services in addition to
|> |contract negotiation.
|> 
|> Once again, we have the problem of a migrating proposition.  I joined this
|> discussion to oppose the claim that plant safety concerns could be handled
|> merely by allowing the free market to determine where workers would choose
|> to work.  We talked about regional isolation and government intervention,
|> and then someone suggested that it could be handled by union organization.
|> My point is that it can't.

Why not?  Unions have had good success in getting high wages for their
employees, why should safety be any different?  A contract can specify
many things.  Anything that is currently part of a government regulation
could easily be included in a contract.  Safety inspections could be
mandated by the contract.  Lack of inspections would be grounds for a
lawsuit.  It is much easier to sue and win against a private company
than against the U.S. Government.



James W. Howe                  internet: jwh@citi.umich.edu
University of Michigan             uucp: uunet!mailrus!citi.umich.edu!jwh
Ann Arbor, MI   48103-4943
From: mikeq@freddy.CNA.TEK.COM (Mike Quigley)
Newsgroups: or.politics
Subject: Re: More on Unions...
Date: 17 Nov 92 17:45:52 GMT
Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Redmond,  OR.

In article <7617@tekig7.PEN.TEK.COM> ssoar@tekig5.pen.tek.com (Steven E Soar) writes:
>                  *stuff omitted*
>
>This is not a free market system, as you imply.  It is a playing field canted
>strongly against the worker, which is what Reagan's corporate supporters had
>in mind.

And, oddly enough, while taking it in the ass, the American blue-collar 
worker voted overwhelming for Reagan, Reagan, and Bush during the 
previous three elections, and almost re-elected Bush a couple weeks ago!

They apparently like the screwing they`ve been getting! So why not give
it to `em again in the form of a no holds barred NAFTA!

Mike
From: robd@shotgun.wv.tek.com
Newsgroups: or.politics
Subject: Mobile home - great first home
Date: 16 Nov 92 22:14:04 GMT
Reply-To: robd@orca.wv.tek.com
Distribution: pnw
Organization: Network Displays Reliability Engineering


Why rent when you can be buying? The following has been my home for 10 years.
Time to move on, so you can move in! 

By Owner: 1980 Fleetwood Wingate Mobile Home $14,000

14X60, 2 bedroom, 1 bath, wood stove, one year old top grade carpeting
and pad , all hardwood paneling, large front kitchen, storm windows
well maintained, 8X10 outside storage shed, set up in desirable West
Woodburn park, institution 80% financing available. Call 982-6005
evenings or daytime message for appointment to view.


          +====================================================+
          | Robert Dixon, Reliability Engineering Proj. Leader |
          | Tektronix, Inc., Network Displays Division (NWD)   |
          |             phone - (503) 685-2811                 |
          |         email - robd@shotgun.WV.TEK.COM            |
	  |              DoD #0176  AMA #(classified)          |
	  |             "I ride, therefore I am"               |
          +====================================================+
Newsgroups: or.politics,alt.politics.clinton,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.elections,ba.politics,co.politics,nj.politics,ny.politics,talk.politics.misc