HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: henry@bms.com (Henry Mednikoff)
Subject: Re: Communism as a Russian guilt (racist c
Reply-To: henry@bms.com
Organization: Bristol-Myers Squibb PRI
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 14:23:49 GMT

In article 3050@polaris.utu.fi, Olli-Jukka Paloneva <opaloneva@abo.fi> () writes:
>In article <1992Dec17.224154.18651@husc3.harvard.edu> Mikhail S.
>Verbitsky, verbit@brauer.harvard.edu writes:
>>was called) Zionistic. The *real* nationalistic or monarchistic
>>dissident activity (like the _Veche_ samizdat magazine)
>>was persecuted more heavily than ordinary dissident activity.
>>The reason is very simple: authorities saw more populist potential
>>in "bei zhidov spasai Rossiyu" dissidents than in usual
>>"human right above all" ones.
>
>Don't you think that Russian nationalism based on monarchistic
>integentsiya,
>would have speeded up collapse of the Soviet philosophy:"Peace and
>sosialism -
>friendship of the nationalities". Common human rights stuff may appeal to
>an
>American, but it does not appeal to an ordinary Russian, who still lives
>in
>society of tutional government instead of constitutional government (A
>Chinese
>consept of military-tuitional-constitutional government).
>
>- olli -


I am not aware of any Russian nationalism during the so called " Soviet Era".
There was plenty of regional nationalism in the republics from Moldova to Uzbekistan.
The Russians were discriminated against by local republican authorities, population, and strange enough, Moscow did not disapprove such treatment of ethnic russians.
Why ?
Moscow called it Lenin's National Politics, another word, the locals suppose to be treated better than the russians. ("chem bi ditja ne teshilos, lish bi ne plakalo..")
Even when the locals used to send their children to russian colledges, those kids
had priority over russian prep. students at the entry exam.

There were lonely voices of Russian intellegentsia (such as Solozenitsin), reminding
russians to wake up their pride, to remember russian roots & history, but it did not
go far.

Henry.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.soviet,soc.culture.nordic
From: Olli-Jukka Paloneva <opaloneva@abo.fi>
Subject: Re: soc.culture.baltic/balticum : Scandinavia/Nordic/Europe/West?
Organization: Turku School of Economics
X-Useragent: Nuntius v1.1
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 92 06:12:30 GMT

In article <1992Dec13.183332.6026@cs.chalmers.se> Tanel Tammet,
tammet@cs.chalmers.se writes:
>There is NO such thing as a "baltic" culture, when you speak about
>Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania. Although there are many things in common,
>the bare fact that Lithuania is a Catholic country whereas Estonia
>and Latvia have been almost exclusively in the Lutheran Protestant
>area from the rise of protestantism, creates principal differences.
>And then there is the obvious language thing, grouping together
>Latvian and Lithuanian, Estonian and Finnish.

Ordinary Japanese call Americans Westerners and they think Europeans are
all the same. Americans call Scandinavians Danes, Icelanders, Alanders,
Finns etc, although they do not live in countries on the Scandic
mountains.
Sometimes they're called more or less correct the Nordic.

If we wait non-Europeans like Americans etc. to take part in our
discussion,
why should we determine whole the cultural khaleidoscope we see ourselves
to puzzle them? In Russian - East European relations it is enough to show
that the Baltic and the Finns are neither Germans nor Russians. That is
enough
for everyone to explain existance of Finland, Latvia, Lithunia and
Estonia.

 Olli-Jukka Paloneva - a representative of the Botnian tribe,
 					   also sometimes called as a Finn. 
 					   
 					   
"One, who's mourning troubles of his, is imprisoned by them -
 					    
 No justice is made to you unless you make it."
 
 Kaarlo Kramsu: Jaakko Ilkka (the Botnian peasant leader in a mutiny
 							   against the exploatative taxation)
From: dharkins@papillon.ucsd.edu (Dan Harkins)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Congress of "People's" Deputies
Date: 16 Dec 1992 23:46:30 GMT
Organization: University of California, San Diego
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: papillon.ucsd.edu
Keywords: bah!

renews@office.relcom.msk.su (Shliemin V.A.) writes:

> Neither prices, nor loans will be restrained!
> I am a proponent of regulated prices.

> [ softball Q&A with Russian Prime Minister deleted ]

Just how do you resolve those two statements (and the scores of
other similar ones in your post)? If you regulate prices you
must restrain them, by definition.

Let me toss a few balls at the Prime Minister too:

1. You say you're for privitization, but there is no respect,
nor recognition, of private property in Russia. Is your support
merely hot air? If not, how do you resolve the predicament
of no private property while "privitizing"?

2. How does Western aid (juice from Germany, pharmaceutical goods
from America, nuts from Israel, cooking oil from the European 
community, etc. many with "Not for resale" written on them) find
its way into the hands of the Mafia and onto the streets of
Moscow where it is sold?

3. When will Russia establish laws regarding the transferral of
*personal property* across republic borders and international borders?
Once established, when will she respect them?

4. How big is your Swiss Bank Account? What is its account number?

Dan Harkins                      "clava kapitalizmoo!"
                                 #include <std/disclaimer.h>
From: tammet@cs.chalmers.se (Tanel Tammet)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Baltic russian-speakers: small people's faith.
Date: 14 Dec 92 09:47:08 GMT
Organization: Dept. of CS, Chalmers, Sweden

In article <1992Dec13.232817.20011@enea.se> sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog) writes:
>Tanel Tammet (tammet@cs.chalmers.se) writes:
>>However, I do not agree on the same kind of bilingualism as is the case
>>in Finland. Estonia was NOT a bilingual country 50 years ago, and
>
>Hm, I'm too lazy to look up the figures right now, but wasn't
>the proportions of Russians in Estonia 50 years ago in parity
>with the one of Swedes in Finland, that is 6-7%?

Yes, you are more or less right. And, the percentage of germans in Estonia
was approximately the same as the percentage of russians. Due to the
centuries-long german domination (until WWI, through all the times of
the Swedish rule and Russian rule) in Estonia, the standard second
language for most estonians was, of course, German. Historically
German should have the same status in Estonia as Swedish has in
Finland. Of course, this would be fairly impractical in the current situation.
    
Now my point in rejecting the bilingualism of the Finnish model is that
total official bilingualism with Estonian and Russian, so that official
documents have to be also filled in Russian, will be considered absolutely
unacceptable by over 90% of the Estonian citizens. The need to use Russian
in official papers associates directly with the rule of USSR with all the
consequences. The existence of independent Estonia and the Estonian culture
as a whole associates directly with the language.

This sentiment is so ridiculously strong, that, say, if 
foreign passports in Estonia were to be filled both in Estonian and Russian,
I'd maybe consider dropping Estonian citizenship. I agree that this
is perhaps unexpected to the outsiders - the point is to show that
it is practically impossible to adopt the Finnish model of bilingualism.    

At the same time a majority of estonians agrees to speak to local
russians in Russian. In a mixed-language environment at work the language
mastered best by all the participants, either Estonian or Russian,
is normally used.  

So the bilingualism is bound to stay at the everyday level, IMHO.
This is one immediate reason for the language requirement in naturalization.
All non-handicapped citizens are supposed to have some idea what is written
in their passports and other official documents.

Regards,
	Tanel Tammet
Xref: sparky talk.politics.soviet:9632 soc.culture.soviet:10943 soc.culture.turkish:12964 talk.politics.mideast:23290 soc.rights.human:4481 soc.culture.europe:10367
From: rhmerri@ACCESS.DIGEX.COM ("Robert H. Merriman")
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: SUBSCRIBE
Date: 17 Dec 92 22:41:55 GMT
Reply-To: "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" <TPS-L@indycms.bitnet>

SUBSCRIBE talk.politics.soviet
Robert H. Merriman
rhmerri@access.digex.com
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.soviet,soc.culture.turkish,talk.politics.mideast
From: verbit@coolidge.harvard.edu (Mikhail S. Verbitsky)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Comments on Russia's Future ..., (#799)
Date: 19 Dec 92 01:04:26 GMT
Organization: Sozialistische Patienten Kollektiv

In article <1992Dec18.145527.4105@synapse.bms.com> henry@bms.com writes:

>I become even more pessimistic when I see some 
>seeds of alliance "Germany-Russia-China".
>If it becomes true, we will face enormous 
>problems in Europe,Asia and almost everywhere.
>Have anyone given a thought of Germany becoming MEGA-SUPER-POWER ? supported by
>Russian & Chinese labor, material & market resources.
>Eltsin called Germans something like "natural and historic friends of Russia..."
>
>If the USA continues to sit on its hands, Germany will do the job well.
>
>Henry.
>

Henry is right: the goodwill towards Germany in Russia is 
easily explained by the numbers I read in the local newspapers.
Aside from promised but not paid loans and other stuff,
of all *paid* and *given* to Russia help (food, money, etc.)
80% is given by Germans.

Nevertheless, as the German and Russian politics at Balkans
are diametrally opposite, the Germany-Russia alliance is impossible
till the current Balkan war is stopped. I don't believe
that either Russia or Germany will change their view 
on Balkan war. Most Russians think that Bosnian 
Serbs are being genocided by Muslims and UN while 
most Germans think opposite. Naturally, Germany will help 
Muslims and Croats, who are old Germans' allies from WWII 
as much as they can, and Russia will help its 
WWII allies - Serbs. 

Misha.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.soviet,soc.culture.nordic
From: thietaniemi@cc.helsinki.fi
Subject: Re: soc.culture.baltic/balticum        Scandinavia/Nordic
Organization: University of Helsinki
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 09:25:11 GMT

In article <1992Dec14.061230.17830@polaris.utu.fi>, Olli-Jukka Paloneva 
<opaloneva@abo.fi> writes:

> In Russian - East European relations it is enough to show
> that the Baltic and the Finns are neither Germans nor Russians. That is
> enough
> for everyone to explain existance of Finland, Latvia, Lithunia and
> Estonia.


It might be enough for someone (from USA or from China). But it's 
certainly not enough for me. I am deeply conscious of the fact
that Finns, Estonians, Karelians and the Samish speak a non-indoeuropean
tongue. And the Latvians and Lithuanians speak an ancient indoeuropean
language.

Besides, the difference the Baltic / the Finns is incorrect, because
we are Baltic Finns (pribaltisko-finskiye)!

Once again: Finns are Baltic Finns, the majority of which consist
of Eastern Baltics. If this is not clear in English, read the same
in Finnish:

*************** Non-indo-european on *******************************
Suomalaiset ovat ita"merensuomalainen kansa, jonka enemmisto"
koostuu ita"balttilaisista.
*************** Non-indo-european off *********************************


This argument should be crystal clear: Because everybody does not 
understand it instantly in Finland, proves only that the Baltic
questions were neglected in Finland for too many years...

 
>  Olli-Jukka Paloneva - a representative of the Botnian tribe,
>  					   also sometimes called as a Finn. 


Tapani Hietaniemi, Universitas Helsingiensis
                   URBS FENNORUM

Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.soviet,soc.culture.nordic
From: ryyti@jyu.fi (Jarmo Ryyti)
Subject: Re: soc.culture.baltic/balticum
Organization: University of Jyvaskyla, Finland
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 07:47:55 GMT

Tanel Tammet (tammet@cs.chalmers.se) wrote:
: In article <1992Dec12.174601.1@cc.helsinki.fi> thietaniemi@cc.helsinki.fi writes:
: >In article <1gacd1INNltk@rodan.UU.NET>, sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog)
:  
: >
: >Why not call the group soc.culture.balticum?

Soc.culture.balticum is a good idea. Definition balticum gives more
space than baltic. The estonians are for instance not baltic people.
: 
: My support goes for soc.culture.balticum. I would support talk.politics.
: baltics, but not soc.culture.baltic.
: 
: There is NO such thing as a "baltic" culture, when you speak about
: Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania. Although there are many things in common,
: the bare fact that Lithuania is a Catholic country whereas Estonia
: and Latvia have been almost exclusively in the Lutheran Protestant
: area from the rise of protestantism, creates principal differences.
: And then there is the obvious language thing, grouping together
: Latvian and Lithuanian, Estonian and Finnish.

So soc.culture.baltic would unite all kinds of issues concerning Balticum
area. So even the swedes could participate:-. Or we could create for the
swedes a sub news-group: soc.culture.submarines Balticum.
tervised,
jarmo ryyti
From: tammet@cs.chalmers.se (Tanel Tammet)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Bilingualism in ESTONIA (Was: Baltic Russian-speakers)
Date: 15 Dec 92 10:45:45 GMT
Organization: Dept. of CS, Chalmers, Sweden

In article <1992Dec14.110417.1@cc.helsinki.fi> thietaniemi@cc.helsinki.fi writes:
>In article <1992Dec13.232817.20011@enea.se>, sommar@enea.se 
>(Erland Sommarskog) writes:
>> Tanel Tammet (tammet@cs.chalmers.se) writes:
>>>However, I do not agree on the same kind of bilingualism as is the case
>>>in Finland. Estonia was NOT a bilingual country 50 years ago, and
>> 
>> Hm, I'm too lazy to look up the figures right now, but wasn't
>> the proportions of Russians in Estonia 50 years ago in parity
>> with the one of Swedes in Finland, that is 6-7%?
>
>
>According to the 1934 cencus, the population of Estonian republic
>consisted of
>
>
>Estonians        88,2%
>Russians          8,2%
>Germans           1,5%
>Swedes            0,7%
>
>
>Well, literally speaking, Estonia should not have THE SAME KIND of
>bilingualism as Finland. The Swedes were a tiny majority and the amount
>of Swedish-speakers is even smaller today (0,1-0,2 %).

Quite clearly this is the reason why Finland can afford to have
a bilingualism of the kind it has. I wouldn't mind having
Estonian-German bilingualism in Estonia.

>But still, shouldn't Estonia pursue SIMILAR bilingualism towards
>the RUSSIANS as the Finnish overwhelming majority pursues towards
>the Finnish Swedes (finlandssvenskar) ...?

The situation is VERY different. It is quite different from Finland
already in Sweden, where the percentage of finns is noticeably higher
than the percentage of swedes in Finland. As you know, even after
the WWII there were rather draconic rules in Sweden blocking the use
of Finnish, even things clearly against "human rights". Ask Jarmo
Ryyti about that. The situation is better now, but the idea of
Swedish-Finnish bilingualism in Sweden is still unthinkable.

Regards,
	Tanel Tammet
From: c23st@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com (Spiros Triantafyllopoulos)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: More Greek Atrocities towards Supermarket Cashiers
Date: 18 Dec 1992 08:52:52 -0600
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Arxid, or the pride of AT&T, Hasan B-) Mutlu) writes:
(* (*      Armenian Soldiers Massacre Hundreds of Fleeing Families:
(* (*  
(* >Yea, one comment, Arxid Effendi... I just got a wonderful idea of what to
(* >do the next time an idiotic teenager working as a supermarket cashier
(* >makes cute remarks about Tri*'s name. How's this:
(* >        Tri* Family Massacres Dozens of Supermarket Cashiers
(* 
(* What else is new, anyway?
(*  
(*  <<In Corfu Jews were subjected to violent attacks and almost constant
(*   persecution by its Greek population. They had to row in the galleys
(*   even when they had committed no crime. They had to provide food and
(*   lodging for soldiers on demand, were required to go to Greek law courts
(*   on the Sabbath as well as during Jewish festivals, and as elsewhere in
(*   the Byzantine empire they were compelled to act as public executioners,
(*   adding to the public wrath to which they were normally subjected. After
(*   Venice took control of the island in 1386, conditions became even worse.>>
 
See, Arxid Effendi, the problem with the Jews of Corfu was that they were
running the local supermarkets. Since Jewish names are typically shorter 
and simpler to pronounce than Greek names, this was the root cause of the
conflict. 

 "A Greek would go to buy turkey and chicken at the local Jewish-run supermarket.
 Invariably the teenage daughter of the owner, let's call her Bitchme Errrrin,
 (with four r's, like Purrrrdue) would try some idiotic comment on the
 customer's name. The customer would then get pissed and perform indescribable
 acts of violence against Bitchme. It is theorized that the idiotic
 teenagers learned of the practice, called turk-o-phonics, during summer
 visits to the motherland. [1]"

 "The conflict continued thru the centuries as the Jewish run supermarkets
 had excellent prices and food stuff, but rude teenagers in the checkout
 line. Caught in the dillema of excellent prices vs. turk-o-phonics, the
 conflict widened... [2]"

[1] [2] "The Modern Supermarket, Myths and Truths", by Ispirtoski Sipaoglu,
Purrrrdue University, West Lafayette, TRNC, 1992, pages 22 to 22.

Spiros
--
(I think I forgot something)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
From: sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.europe
Subject: Re: Russian learning Estonian and vice versa
Date: 20 Dec 92 17:32:55 GMT
Organization: Enea Data AB

Yury M. Mukharsky (muh@physics.Berkeley.EDU) writes:
>I said:
>>But in that case is that very practical? Assume for a moment
>>that the Estonians decide that they don't want to learn Russian.
>
>Why in the hell they will learn the language they know already?

You obviously didn't understand that it was a hypothetical
question.

However, the question is not solely hypothetic. I don't know
what is the current situation in the Estonian schooling system
is, but assume that Russian is not a mandatory foreign language.
Then in 10-15 years you will have adult Estonians who don't
speak Russian. (And you will probably have it anyway, since
the Russian langauge has an incredibily low status among the
Estonians, and many of the students will attend the lessons
with the ears closed.)

Originally, my lines above were in response to Mikhail Verbitsky
who claimed that Russians neither needed or wanted to learn
Estonian. But those days are definitely through when a Russian
could expect to answered in Russian everywhere in Estonia. Even
less than a Russian may want to speak Estonian, an Estonian might
want to speak Russian.
-- 
Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - sommar@enea.se
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
From: Olli-Jukka Paloneva <opaloneva@abo.fi>
Subject: GORBACHEV'S HOUSE IN MALIBU
Organization: Turku School of Economics
X-Useragent: Nuntius v1.1
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 92 06:24:45 GMT

Subject: GORBACHEV'S HOUSE IN MALIBU
From: Boris Zadov, zadov@Apocalypse.CAD.UCLA.EDU
In article <8876@lee.SEAS.UCLA.EDU> Boris Zadov,
zadov@Apocalypse.CAD.UCLA.EDU writes:
>
/forwarded message
>
>                          Gorbachev's House
>                             in Malibu
>
>I am sending this information on behalf of my friend, who is
>afraid to reveal his identity. He has a reason to be afraid,
>since he has already been warned about possible consequences
>of his interest to this delicate affair. He hopes, that may
>be through the computer network he could break the silence
>curtain around this affair.
>______________________________________________________________
>
>Even though there are more than enough expensive houses in Malibu,
>this newly built $10-million house located at 1807 Latigo Canyon
>Road, arises too many questions to remain unnoticed.
> - Who gave the money for the construction?
> - Who is gonna live there?
> - How come, that the coastal comission gave the permission to build
>this unique huge beautiful building with ocean view next to the
>National Park, where only small houses (lower than the mountain level)
>are normally allowed?
> - Why one of the leading Soviet specialists in the concrete const-
>ruction (Yury Babchenko) was invited for the construction of the
>building ?
> - Is it just a coincidence, that "comrade" Babchenko, who was so
>suddenly invited from the Soviet Union through the former Soviet
>Ministry of International Affairs(!), had earlier worked with ...
>"comrade" Gorbachev?
>
>There are even more data, that undoubtedly indicate, who is the owner
>of the house. The problem is: nobody (not even ubiquitous KGB or CIA
>or press) is willing to bother another Russian - the owner of the
>construction company "General Excavation" Leo Roit - with questions.
>Too bad... He would certainly have something to say about his customer...
>As for the customer himself - he is neither the first nor the last
retired
>politician who has chosen to live on retirement in beautiful California.
>May be, the first of this range...
>
>It remains just to ask the customer, whether he is not afraid to share
>the faith of another "exporter of dirty money" - Philippines dictator
>Markes.
>
>It could be right time for customer to arrive, but suddenly (or not that
>suddenly?) he was refused an exit visa. No doubt, it's temporary. It's
>in the best interests of those who is at power in Russia today, that
>this man, who knows too much, would be as far, as possible. So, in the
>nearest future we will certainly see him arrived. As for now, there
>are just two security guards, recently arrived from Russia, who live in
>the house...
>________________________________________________________________________
>_
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
From: sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog)
Subject: Re: Baltic russian-speakers: small people's faith.
Organization: Enea Data AB
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 23:28:17 GMT

Tanel Tammet (tammet@cs.chalmers.se) writes:
>However, I do not agree on the same kind of bilingualism as is the case
>in Finland. Estonia was NOT a bilingual country 50 years ago, and

Hm, I'm too lazy to look up the figures right now, but wasn't
the proportions of Russians in Estonia 50 years ago in parity
with the one of Swedes in Finland, that is 6-7%?

-- 
Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - sommar@enea.se
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.soviet,soc.culture.turkish,soc.rights.human,talk.politics.mideast