From: farris@ruhets.rutgers.edu (Lorenzo Farris)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Proof: God wrote the Bible
Date: 13 Oct 92 11:26:46 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

In article <1992Oct12.185528.15804@tc.fluke.COM>, nordenga@tc.fluke.COM (Arnold E. Nordeng) writes:
: 
: In article <Oct.8.07.01.10.1992.11684@ruhets.rutgers.edu> farris@ruhets.rutgers.edu (Lorenzo Farris) writes:
: :In article <1992Oct7.165840.14358@tc.fluke.COM>, nordenga@tc.fluke.COM (Arnold E. Nordeng) writes:
: :: 
: Isn't that wonderful.  Hindu and Buddhist have just degraded humankind 
: to that of maggots.  

That's only if you look down on maggots.  And given what humans have
done with this world, maybe you would agree that is not so
appropriate.

: 
: :Killing any living creature has
: :negative consequences.  The caste system is in part a result of a
: :particular class of people coopting and redefining the tenets of a
: :religion. Not too different from what has gone on in Christianity
: :through the ages.
: 
: It isn't all that far of a stretch of an imagination since we are no
: more or less valuable than maggots.  Get it?

No. If we are all equal, you obviously have not right to control me.

: 
: :Number four (flame on 8-])
: :You want to talk about silly superstitions. Man was created four
: :thousand years ago? 
: 
: No, between 6000 and 50,000 years ago.  Show me a truly human skeleton
: over 50000 years and show me how you dated it.
: 
: :He was created imperfect, and then punished for
: :being imperfect?  
: 
: He was created good. Where is it said he was created imperfect?
: 
: :He was cast out of paradise for acquiring knowledge?  
: 
: He was not cast out of paradise for acquiring knowledge.  He was
: cast out for being disobedient to God.  Free will and free choice
: was given, to obey or not to obey God.

Free will, as you seem to think of it, doesn't exist.  Essentially,
most peoples' lives are a series of conditioned responses they think is
free will.  Spiritual awakening, and spiritual progress, involves the
lessening of the hold of that conditioning.  From what I have seen,
most members of all religions differ only in their conditioned
responses. When one is spiritually aware, there is really no choice in
action either.  To quote Jung, free will means that we do gladly that
which we must do.
So, from this perspective, which I am sure you disagree with, having
complete freedom of action as you do, WoMan was either spiritually
awakened, in which case there would have been no urge to disobey God,
or s/he was ignorant, with a predilection to checking out forbidden
fruits, in which case, s/he really couldn't help it any way.
"Oh dear, Johnny, I told you not to touch that vase. I love you
Johnny, but I'm afraid it's the electric chair for you."

: 
: :When you die, all you have to do is say "Oh, pretty pretty please
: :forgive me, You who are so tremendously big, I am just an
: :insignificant worm, please don't toss me on the barby!!" 
: 
: Coming from a Hindu philosophy, I thought that worms were equivalent
: to anything else?  Or do you not believe what you have to say?
: Look, the greatest punishment goes with the greatest crime or sin.
: Speeding gets speeding tickets.  Illegal parking gets parking tickets.
: Rape gets jail sentence.  And murder gets possible capital punishment.
: Rejecting God's remedy for sin, Jesus Christ, deserves judgement--this
: is the greatest crime or sin.

I was speaking from a Christian perspective there, where the whole
planet is essentially here to exploit. Further, there's no way you are
going to convince me that any sin merits eternal damnation. Except
maybe eternally damning someone :-)
: 
: 
: :And poof, all
: :is better.  But those poor schmucks who are not such toadies roast for
: :eternity. Our souls have a beginning, but no end?  Don't tell me about
: :silly superstitions.  
: 
: If you are created, yes!

Here is a fundamental point. In my belief, I am unborn and undying. My
essential being is not a part of time.
If indeed this was all created by an all powerful god, well, methinks
there were a few points that could have been worked out a little
better. Like that darn domesticated ape that keeps mucking things up.

: 
: :In the eastern theory of karma, you reap as you sow, you always have
: :to pay back for anything negative you do, you always get the rewards
: :for the good you do. Justice is inevitable.  
: 
: Justice from impersonal gods who you don't know, who don't tell you how
: to behave, and really don't care, hence impersonality.  You live over 
: and over again in an attempt to escape into the great beyond of 
: impersonality, where you are, continually paying for sins you can't remember.
: We are talking rape, incest, murder, and other horrors that are apar
: of karma.
: 
My goodness, you must have had some exciting past lives!
This justice doesn't come from any outside source, not from any gods.
You are what you do.  If you do something bad, you live with the
consequences and the resulting mental state.  If you love, you live
with the positive consequences. Like attracts like. The gods have
their own karma to work out, they aren't judging me.

: :Also inevitable is that
: :ALL creatures will one day have moved beyond this plane into union
: :with the divine.
: 
: Having suffered all along for sins of past lives.  In India, they come
: back at lower forms of life, like cows.  When will they ever learn.
: 
I don't see what your point is. Like you aren't going to suffer for
your sins of this life?
: 
: :Last point: You will probably never be aware of this yourself, or
: :acknowledge it (that's a flame for you! :-) but proselytizing is an
: :act of violence.  To force your OPINION down someone else's throat
: :totally uninvited is an act of VIOLENCE.  An act of violence done in a
: :good (sic) cause is still an act of violence.  Some somewhat more
: :enlightened soul said that you can tell a Christian by the way that
: :they act.  In this day and age, that is certainly very true about
: :fundies. 
: 
: Lorenzo, you are not aware of yourself.  Simply because nothing is real,
: only apart of your imagination.  Your irrational anger is driving
: you away from being impersonal, from blurring into the impersonal nirvahna
: of consciousness (or lack of).   Impersonality doesn't care if I post my
: opinion and doesn't describe it as forcing it down someone else's throat.
: Nothing is real, no evil, no good.  Its all apart of the cosmic 
: (un)consciousness.  Doesn't Hinduism say that violence is unreal?
: 
: Maybe you don't believe what you state.
: 
: BTW, I am here to discuss newage and eastern thought, and yes, I will
: approach it as immoral.  I am allowed to post on this group, no?
: 
: -Arnold Nordeng

Hinduism and Buddhism do not strive for impersonality but detachment.
Be in this world, but not of it.  And it's certainly not anger, but
rather entertainment that drives me, with a measure of compassion, as
I try to help people see things from a broader perspective. You see,
your hostility to non-christian religions is certainly reaping you bad
karma, and keeping you in a very negative mind state. I really don't
care about your attacks' effects on other people. Everyone is
responsible for how things affect them. You are certainly allowed to
post on this group, but if you insist on attacking other peoples'
beliefs, and not simply engaging in a friendly exchange of ideas, with
an open mind to new ideas, then you should expect to be attacked in
return, and to the extent you fail to see the unreasonableness of your
position at times, well, that's what people will see.
I am not a Hindu, at least not in this lifetime. I defend Hinduism the
same way I would defend christianity, since there is something very
positive underlying all religions.
You've got a fundamental problem here. The ideas you present are
fundamentally irrational, based on the physical experience of most
humans. Therefor, you have to somehow transmit the faith that you
have. You either have to present me with practical, real world, here
and now reasons why your beliefs are at all worth considering. Or you
somehow need to magically transplant faith into my heart. You
certainly haven't done the former. I am not going to hold my breath
for the latter. In my experience, the only practice that subjects
itself to experiential testing explicitly is Buddhism. The Buddha
said- Don't believe me, try it yourself, and you will see, IN THIS
LIFETIME, whether what I say is true. In which case, in it's purest
form, Buddhism doesn't even count as a religion, since, as I
understand it, religion is man's relationship to the divine.
Thanks for presenting your ideas, Arnold. I can see you heart is hard,
but I have had fun responding to you.

	May you find happiness under the sun,
				Lorenzo
-- 
"The Hell Law says that Hell is reserved      ***************************
exclusively for them that believe in it.      *	Lorenzo Farris           
Further, the lowest Rung in Hell is 	      *	farris@ruhets.rutgers.edu
reserved for them that believe in it on the   ***************************
supposition that they'll go there if they
don't" -Honest Book of Truth; the Gospel According to Fred, 3:1
Xref: sparky talk.religion.newage:4645 alt.alien.visitors:7311 alt.religion.kibology:4161