HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: bittrolff@evans.enet.dec.com ()
Subject: Re: Computer-Controlled Players (New, Great Thread!)
Reply-To: bittrolff@evans.enet.dec.com ()
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 19:06:35 GMT


Re Genetic Algorithms

I've been doing some work in this arena, it is very promising. It can also drive
you nuts. Some of the problems:

They are fairly easy to implement within a limited domain, but get nasty when
you expand the horizon (ie. add terrain considerations, for example).

Making individual components smarter isn't too bad, getting them to cooperate is
trickier.

Finding an evaluation algorithm can be tricky.

Fun stuff to work with though. (I'm currently writing a GA to predict winners at
the local dog track, how's that for putting my money where my mouth is?)

--
Steve Bittrolff

The previous is my opinion, and is shared by any reasonably intelligent person.
Newsgroups: rec.games.programmer
From: jczhelp@tamuts.tamu.edu (John Zurawski)
Subject: Re: The miracle solution to IBM Freakouts and IBM love triangles!
Organization: ~/lib/organization
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 08:42:33 GMT

In article <1992Aug13.000045.58114@cc.usu.edu> sl859@cc.usu.edu writes:
>Perhaps a solution to the IBM specific questions is a simple 
>practice of netiquette?  If someone wants to know a hardware
>specific question feel free to ask it, but then ask for replies
>via Email...  Then when the discussion has worn down post 
>all your discussions up for all those who are interested in
>your findings...  It is supposed to be a common practice, but
>no one uses it, cuz it is awfully simple post a reply, but I
>believe Email is a pretty easy way to solve it?!  It's either 
>that or we continually flame each other until one faction 
>drops dead!  (Which might be fun, but will only serve to clutter
>the rec.games.programmers newsgroup, which ironically is why  the
>whole mess started int the first place!?) 

 I don't think this is a good idea.  There have already been a lot
of people who have expressed interest in the PC specific aspects
of game programming.  And most likely many others who have not posted.
If people would respond to these questions via email, then the original
poster would be bombarded with emails asking for copies of any 
responses they received.  This is why I don't like seeing people
asking for replies through email over information that is valuable
to more than one person.  I always end up having to send an email message
and hope that I will receive a reply.  I have done this over a dozen
times and only received one or two replies.
 
 I feel that the people who are disturbed by the PC specifics should
tolerate it or go to rec.games.design.  As someone already pointed
out, game programming (at least video games) requires in-depth
hardware knowledge and that no decent game is going to be written in
100% portable ANSI C.  Maybe future posts can have the platform
name in the Subject heading for easy scanning. For example:

Subject: PC: Re: VGA, Retraces and DMA
or
Subject: AMIGA: Dual playfields

--John C. Zurawski
From: oconnell@physd1.phys.vt.edu (Richard Oconnell)
Newsgroups: rec.games.programmer
Subject: Conference split
Date: 23 Aug 1992 07:33:59 -0500
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

	Well, I think we've managed to drown out all discussion
of games, IBM and otherwise.  Can we rename this group
"Is.an.ibm.compatible.a.legitimate.topic.in.rec.games.programmer.?"?
I think the traffic might go down if people had to type in the
whole name of the conference everytime they wanted to gripe about it...

Just MHO...
Richard O'Connell        oconnellwr@vtcc1.cc.vt.edu
Newsgroups: rec.games.programmer
From: ap@jyu.fi (Patric Aalto)
Subject: Re: SpaceGame routines
Organization: University of Jyvaskyla, Finland
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 12:40:21 GMT

bx304@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Jeff Epler) writes:
>>The second game-mode is a duel between two
>>players connected by serial links (as in the original LineWars).
>
>Will the two-player mode have the multiple fighters per side, (I think
>that would be neat) as an option, or will it still be one ship per
>side in that mode?

Yes, that would surely be neat, but I am running into a bandwidth problem
there. I need to send around 20 bytes of information per ship (including
ship's coordinates, direction and speed) per frame. As the game runs at
around 35 frames/sec, this means data transfer rate of 700 cps. This speed
is quite easy to achieve on a 9600 bps modem, but at 2400 bps it is a bit
of a problem. And that is only for one ship per player. Of course lower
cps rates just mean that the opponent ship movement is a bit jerky, so it
is not a great problem. I could possibly change my game to transmit only
the information that has changed since the last frame, but that would make
the routines unnecessarily complex. Currently I can use even 115.200 bps
rate with NS16450 UART chips while using a joystick and playing digitized
music, and even though about 70 per cent of the received blocks fail due
to Receive Data Overrun Errors (I have to disable interrupts for up to
1 ms to read the joystick), this does not effect the game at all. If I
were to send only the changed information, loss of transmitted blocks
would be much more serious.

I'd like to hear how others have implemented the two-player game line
error handling and this bandwidth problem.

Patrick Aalto
ap@tukki.jyu.fi

will not
From: odlin@reed.edu (Iain Odlin)
Newsgroups: rec.games.programmer
Subject: The Hobbes Library in alt.sources is kaput.
Date: 19 Aug 92 19:55:11 GMT
Article-I.D.: reed.1992Aug19.195511.1961
Organization: The Stuffed Animal Trauma Team  (We're Trained Professionals)


  The Hobbes Library in alt.sources is corrupt at both sites I've tried to
  get it from.  One's in Maine and the other's in Oregon, so it is hardly a
  'local' problem.  I get "short file" errors when trying to uudecode them.
  Please repost, Court.  I dunno 'bout anyone else, but *I* want to see them.

  Thanks.
-- 
 --------------------------------- Iain Odlin ---------------------------------
                  10 Crosby Street, Level 3, Portland ME 04103
                                 odlin@reed.edu
 ------------------ Inexplicably, Bob's porcupine goes flat. ------------------
From: cyberman@toz.buffalo.ny.us (Cyberman)
Newsgroups: rec.games.programmer
Subject: Re: splitting the group
Date: 22 Aug 92 00:27:54 GMT
X-Maildoor: WaflineMail 1.00r


     -=> Timothy D. Goss spoke of "Re: splitting the group" <=-
    To All at 08-21-92  03:34
 TDG> Now.  Would anyone like to discuss some of the primitives necessary to
 TDG> make a really useful genetic algorithm?  I can't see how a 'good'
 TDG> critter can evolve without some powerful primitives to draw upon.  Any
 TDG> ideas?

I thought I posted something on this.  Anyway my thought is to
use "inheritance" combined with fractal geometry.  What I mean is
using a system of "weights" inherited from an ancestor these
weights each have an "equation" that's models a particular "state"
of behavior.

It's like a soccer ball on a field of play.  You have 20 players
each with their own bias.  10 want to score a goal to the right
10 to the left.  Each team of players vie for control of the ball.
In general it will depend on the strategies each player employees
on the moving the ball as to who wins.  however it also depends
on who has control of the ball!  SO let's say each of the ten
players have their own favorite strategy which will work
differently.  Each team struggles for control of the ball
meanwhile.

By inheriting these weights [that is the better ones] and
equations each succesive generation will have a better strategy
model to work with.  Besides by also adding NEW equations/weights
you could add mutation! :)

        Stephen Cyberman@Toz.Buffalo.NY.US
        Scripted at Fri  08-21-1992  14:00:47

... The more you run over a cat, the flatter it gets.
--- Blue Wave/QWK v2.10
From: claudius@zeus.calpoly.edu (King_Claudius (Chris Knight))
Newsgroups: rec.games.programmer
Subject: Re: Splitting the group
Date: 20 Aug 92 21:27:11 GMT
Organization: California Polytechnic State University, San Luis Obispo

***************************************************************************
PLAIN AND SIMPLE:

There is already a couple newsgroups for the discussion of pc-specific
development of games and related topics: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games and
comp.sys.ibm.pc.programmer.  Anyone who has that newsgroup and posts PC-
specifics here will immediately be shot in the head.  [Oops, I forgot you got
to be shot-in-the-head to program games on a PC anyways...;^} x 1000 for the
humor-impaired]

If for some reason you don't get comp.sys.ibm.pc.* in your area, ask your
local news administrator for it.

Any questions?
***************************************************************************
-- 
---King Claudius---                                   claudius@zeus.calpoly.edu
Newsgroups: rec.games.programmer
From: msmith%peruvian.utah.edu@cs.utah.edu (Matthew Smith)
Subject: mouse routines
Date: 20 Aug 92 09:18:14 MDT
Organization: University of Utah CS Dept

I received a large amount of mail for my mouse routines, so I posted them to
wuarchive.wustl.edu in /pub/MSDOS_UPLOADS/mouse.zip.  Included is a makefile
that uses BCCX to and TLIB to create a library of any model size.  However, I
tried to make it as generic as possible so that it would be simple to convert
it over to any compiler and librarian.

This source code is posted as is.  I don't plan on supporting it any further
than this.  Most people seemed interested in getting it more as a starting 
point on how to write their own mouse routines.  

Enjoy!
Matt Smith
msmith@peruvian.utah.edu
Student - University of Utah Department of Computer Science
Newsgroups: rec.games.programmer
From: draper@ais.org (Patrick Draper)
Subject: Re: Computer-Controlled Players (New, More Appropriate Thread)
Organization: UMCC
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 03:08:30 GMT

Has anyone tried using genetic algorithms for CCP's?

I'll bet you have to play thousands of games to train a good one, unless you
prime the pump with abover average players first.


Any comments?


------------------////////////////////\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\------------------
| Patrick Draper           Disclaimer:  I can't control my fingers,        |
| draper@irie.ais.edu                   I can't control my toes! - Ramones |
| University of Michigan                                                   |
| Computer Club                We are a nation of laws, not people         |
------------------\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\////////////////////------------------
Newsgroups: rec.games.programmer
From: tmkk@uiuc.edu (Khan)
Subject: Re: fast VGA sprite routines
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 13:30:16 GMT


In article <RVmgPB1w165w@tsoft.sf-bay.org> bbs.brienv@tsoft.sf-bay.org (Brien Voorhees) writes:
>
>  Does anyone know techniques to speed up graphics routines?  Here's an
>overview of how my routines work :
>  During any given cycle, the following things happen :
>  The Master copy of the background (in a 64k buffer) is copied into the
>work buffer (also 64k).
>  All sprites are written to the work buffer.
>  After all movement is done, the work buffer is copied into screen 
>memory
>with a REP MOVSW.

Hmm... Seems to me that you're copying the entire background needlessly
each and every frame. If you remember where you drew each sprite, you
can bitblt small rectangles from the background to overwrite the sprites
in preparation for the next frame. Your sprite library could even do
this automatically.
From: tmkk@uiuc.edu (Khan)
Newsgroups: rec.games.programmer
Subject: Re: Split screen mode: Why? (was Re: 320x400 question)
Date: 12 Aug 92 13:01:09 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana


In article <wyman.713577083@opal8> wyman@rtsg.mot.com (Mark S. Wyman) writes:
>
>I kinda like the split screen idea if flickering can be kept to a minimum.

Updating the static portion only during the vertical blank should
eliminate all flicker. Most updates to a status area are small (e.g. a
digit or two of a score), and should be easy to accomplish during one
vertical retrace period. If you have a lot of stuff to write, break it
up into chunks sized so that one chunk can be written during each
vertical blank, and then write the chunks out during successive vertical
blank periods. Even if it takes 3 or 4 VBs to write everything, that's
still only 1/15th of a second or so.

It's a little extra work to code your drawing routines to check the
vertical retrace flag in the CTR controller's registers, but it buys you
space for a sprite cache in video memory on certain platforms unendowed
with a hardware blitter chip.
Newsgroups: rec.games.programmer
From: ap@jyu.fi (Patric Aalto)
Subject: Re: Computer-Controlled Players (New, More Appropriate Thread)
Organization: University of Jyvaskyla, Finland
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 05:32:30 GMT

In article <Bsx9rB.F6H@news.cso.uiuc.edu> tmkk@uiuc.edu (Khan) writes:
>
>Ooh, a neural net computer opponent, which would learn from the
>programmer and beta testers while they play test the game, so by the
>time the actual release occurred, it would be TOUGH.

Damn! (Sorry...) You stole my dream! :-) Well, seriously, this is exactly
what I have been considering my ultimate goal in developing intelligent
computer opponents into my game.

Has anyone done anything like this, and where could I find information
about neural nets and algorithms to implement them?

Newsgroups: rec.games.programmer
From: exuhag@exu.ericsson.se (James Hague)
Newsgroups: rec.games.programmer
Subject: Re: SpaceGame routines (was Re: IBM Based F
Date: 13 Aug 92 18:34:24 GMT
Reply-To: exuhag@exu.ericsson.se
Organization: Ericsson Network Systems, Richardson, TX

Khan writes:
>
>>3) Should the player's ship be stronger/faster/whatever, or equal to the
>>   other ships? Currently it is equal.
>
>I think they should start out equal, but as game play progresses they
>might be able to enhance their ships' capabilities. For example, if you
>land on Planet Xargathia, the engineers there can install a faster drive
>system for your ship. Something like that.

This reeks of "power-ups."  I'm not flaming the idea, but it is another
one of those topics--like scores in text adventures--that's worth a little
thought.

In principle, the idea sounds like a good one:  as the enemy get more
powerful your capabilities also increase.  Traditionally (IMO), this
was accomplished by the player's skills improving.  There was no way
you could beat the Rabid Limes on level four the same day you bought
the game.  But after some practice, you learned some strategies and
honed your skills and soon you were making limeade.  This makes sense
to me, and rewards the player who takes time to play the game.

But I think most games are designed to give both you and your
opponent equal firepower throughout the game.  At first, you throw
ping pong balls and he throws ping pong balls.  Then you throw rocks
and he throws rocks.  Eventually you both toss nuclear weapons around.
Unfortunately, this negates the whole concept of difficulty and has
resulted in the current crop of games which people are "solving"
in ridiculously short periods of time (one of several factors,
actually).

--
James Hague   
exuhag@exu.ericsson.se
From: ssalter@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (-=[SLS]=-)
Newsgroups: rec.games.programmer
Subject: Re: Splitting the group
Date: 21 Aug 92 16:34:24 GMT
Article-I.D.: usenet.BtCE1C.2Gs
Organization: OFSA

bjoerns@stud.cs.uit.no (Bjoern Stabell) sighs in exasperation:


>hardware specific questions, I'm simply saying that those postings had more
>to do with PC hardware programming than with games theory.
>
>*sigh*  This is not going anywhere. :(

Well, I have to disagree..crap, wish I was running an Amiga or Mac and
then I think I still would disagree and not appear prejudiced. When
programming games you have to take into account the hardware.

no, not going anywhere so why don't we just drop it and kiss and make
up. :)

Steve
-- 
Spirituality is what is inside : religion is humankind's vain attempt to
express it outwardly.
From: nak@cbnews.cb.att.com (neil.a.kirby)
Newsgroups: rec.games.programmer
Subject: Re: Computer-Controlled Players (New, More
Date: 18 Aug 92 21:13:05 GMT
Organization: AT&T

In article <1992Aug13.182150.184@exu.ericsson.se> exuhag@exu.ericsson.se writes:
>Amit Jayant Patel writes:
>>
>>My understanding was that genetic algorithms would be done once, and they 
>>would tweak the values for you so that you don't have to guess.  You could
>>run the GA every night, and in a few weeks, you'd have such a good opponent
>>that it could beat any other possible opponent using those few simple rules.
>>(It wouldn't be done at run-time, so it wouldn't slow down the game...)
>
>...but you've got to do *something* at run-time, I would think :-)
>
>I don't think most people want to play against undefeatable opponents.
>They'd prefer oppponents with different styles, etc.  Remember, the
>computer can "see" everything perfectly (it can access internal data
>structures).  So the exactly what methods the computer is using to
>figure out its moves may not be obvious to a human player, making the
>computer player, at the very least, not completely predictable.

Certainly the computer can "see" all of the data.  I submit that the
programmer should not need to let the CCP "cheat."  The reason I say should
is because the economics of game production might require the programmer to
create a good opponent quickly, and cheating is a means to that end.

But for hoobyists, there is no requirement for cheating.  THere are
approaches that work.  If you can't include genetic algorithms, do
the darwinistic tweaking yourself.  


Neil Kirby
From: mst@vexpert.dbai.tuwien.ac.at (Markus Stumptner)
Newsgroups: rec.games.programmer
Subject: IBM: Looking for info on how to access AT timer chip
Keywords: timer, ibm
Date: 17 Aug 92 11:22:50 GMT
Organization: DB and ES Subdivision, TU Vienna

I think the information on how to use the internal timer was posted in
this newsgroup some weeks ago.  Could some kind soul mail it to me?
Thanks.

-- 
Markus Stumptner                                mst@vexpert.dbai.tuwien.ac.at
University of Technology Vienna                 vexpert!mst@relay.eu.net
Paniglg. 16, A-1040 Vienna, Austria             ...mcsun!vexpert!mst
Newsgroups: rec.games.programmer
From: cyberman@toz.buffalo.ny.us (Cyberman)
Newsgroups: rec.games.programmer
Subject: Re: splitting the group
Date: 21 Aug 92 16:31:35 GMT
X-Maildoor: WaflineMail 1.00r


     -=> King_claudius (chris Kni spoke of "Re: splitting the group" <=-
    To All at 08-20-92  21:27
 K(K> ***********************************************************************
 K(K> **** PLAIN AND SIMPLE:

Really?  I see we need a moderator.  Because some poeple just
can't control themselves from being dictators of what other
poeple should do.

The real issue here is not "appropriate postings" it is one of
dogmatic elimination and bigotry.  All I have seen is posturing
and name calling.  Look let's all think for a change.  BOTH
groups [factions] have valid arguements.

Now THINKING what should be in this group?  Pure game thinking?
I tried that once and got flamed by the same poeple who are
flaming poeple posting PC specifc stuff.  I think you need to
stop thinking of this group as your PERSONAL ELITE group.  It's
not, it's for EVERYONE.  I for one would like to see less
complaining and more PREVALENT posting.  If your complaining
about the number of posts try looking at Comp.programing.C++!  OR
SCI.electronics!  These are crowded yet I read them everyday. and
sometimes every other day.

Moderating a news group as someone stated earlier is VERY
difficult.  Now a specific group of poeple want to split others
don't.  Why shouldn't the group split?  When I originally was on
this news group 12 months ago thier was 1 - 2 posts a day.
Sometimes not for DAYS.

Perhaps a "set of rules" should be posted?

When asking platform specific questions ...

Simple self control is very important.
I do think many of the posts are not 100% apropriate.
However posting to your suggested news groups is just as bad.

This is why a FAQ needs to be put in.  So any questions instead
of being FLAMED or having a LONG discussion on it should can be
FAQed and moved to Email.


        Stephen Cyberman@Toz.Buffalo.NY.US
        Scripted at Fri  08-21-1992  11:49:52

... If you can't make it good, make it big.
--- Blue Wave/QWK v2.10
                                                                                                            
Newsgroups: rec.games.programmer
From: amitp@owlnet.rice.edu (Amit Jayant Patel)
Subject: Re: Computer-Controlled Players (New, More Appr
Reply-To: amitp@owlnet.rice.edu
Organization: Rice University
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 16:07:47 GMT

In article <1992Aug13.133407.12508@exu.ericsson.se>, exuhag@exu.ericsson.se (James Hague) writes:
|> 
|> I've found that for "most" games (excluding pure strategy games), you
|> can get by with a "fake" computer opponent.  That is, the computer doesn't
|> use sophisticated AI routines, but rather uses only a few simple rules with
|> a little randomness thrown in.  You can make the computer act more
|> aggressively by tweaking a few values.
|> 
|> The more complex a method used, unless you go full out with an exhaustive
|> search tree (not possible for many games), the higher the chances of
|> there being holes in the computer's strategy, IMO.  Unless you plan to devote
|> most of your time devloping AI algorithms it is better to go with something
|> simple and use speed, number (i.e. multiple attackers at once), and randomness
|> to overload the player.
|> 

My understanding was that genetic algorithms would be done once, and they 
would tweak the values for you so that you don't have to guess.  You could
run the GA every night, and in a few weeks, you'd have such a good opponent
that it could beat any other possible opponent using those few simple rules.
(It wouldn't be done at run-time, so it wouldn't slow down the game...)

	Amit


-- 
/\\ Amit J Patel, amitp@owlnet.rice.edu
\\/ I think I'm at Rice University 
Newsgroups: rec.games.programmer
From: Ross Ridge <ross@zooid.guild.org>
Subject: Re: VGA PC: background scrolling using virtual screens
Organization: ZOOiD BBS
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1992 13:02:01 GMT

Court Demas <cd2a+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
>I have been working on this very thing for the past couple of days.  I
>first thought that you would need a virtual screen *twice* the size of the
>physical screen in order to do it - when you get to one edge and try to move
>more, you 'jump' to the other half of the virtual screen and continue.  A few
>problems that I saw with it:
>
>1) takes up lots of memory (can't do it in 360x480 - no biggie)

A simple solution is to use a 16 colour mode (eg. 320x200x16).  How do you
think the Apogee games does it?  Unless you're a good enough artist
to use the 256 colour mode effectively, this is not a bad solution.

							Ross Ridge

-- 
Ross Ridge - The Great HTMU					     l/	 //
								    [OO][oo]
ross@zooid.guild.org						    /()\/()/
uunet.ca!zooid!ross						     db	 //
From: greenie@drycas.club.cc.cmu.edu
Newsgroups: rec.games.programmer
Subject: Music programs for game music scores?
Date: 21 Aug 92 10:45:22 -0500
Organization: Carnegie Mellon Computer Club

Say...

I was just wondering what some of you game developers use to develop your
musical scores that go along with your programs?  More specifically, what
do you use to design them and then what do you use to play them back?  Do you
write your own routines or do you use something pre-made from someone else?
What format do you prefer for your music files?

Andy