HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: 72627.2647@compuserve.com (Don HARLOW)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.esperanto
Subject: Re: Rick Harrison on Esperanto
Date: 16 Aug 92 15:37:45 GMT
Distribution: inet
Organization: The Internet

To: Esperanto >INTERNET:esperanto@rand.org;
Rick Harrison >INTERNET:hrick@genesis.nred.ma.us

Dato: 920816

URGENT -- URGxAS

Ronald Hale-Evans recently posted the above-named article to 
s.c.e. and attributed it to Rick Harrison. Rick is the editor of a 
small magazine called the "Journal of Planned Languages" and 
the creator of an artificial language project called "Vorlin" (you 
can find references to him, his magazine, and his creation in the 
April issue of "esperanto", in Blanke's review of Dulichenko's 
book). From things he's said over the network, it is obvious that 
his love for Esperanto and Esperantists is neither deep nor 
enduring. Nevertheless, it is also apparent, from some of the 
things he's said (e.g. about transitivity and intransitivity of verbs 
in his own project) that he was NOT the author of the above-
mentioned article; he merely forwarded it, from some unnamed 
individual, to the constructed-languages (conlang) list. Therefore, 
I'd like to suggest that even the less restrained among us refrain 
from taking unwarranted pot-shots at Rick Harrison's person. As 
far as I know, the deserving target remains conveniently (and 
perhaps wisely) anonymous.

---

Ronald Hale-Evans lastatempe afisxis la supremenciitan galimation 
sur s.c.e. kaj atribuis gxin al Rick Harrison. Rick estas redaktisto 
de revueto, la "Journal of Planned Languages", kaj kreinto de 
planlingva projekto "Vorlin" (oni povas trovi menciojn pri li, lia 
revuo, kaj lia kreajxo en la aprila numero de "esperanto", en la 
recenzo de Blanke pri la libro de Dulicxenko). De pluraj liaj 
perretaj deklaroj evidentigxas, ke lia amo por Esperanto kaj 
esperantistoj nek profundas nek dauxras. Ankaux evidentigxas, 
tamen, de pluraj liaj dirajxoj (ekz. pri transitiveco kaj netransitiveco 
de verboj en lia projekto), ke NE li verkis la supremenciitan 
artikolon; li nur plusendis gxin, de iu sennomulo, al la afisxejo de 
planlingvoj (conlang). Mi do volas proponi, ke ecx tiuj inter ni, kiuj 
nur malfacile povas reteni sin, ne faru senmeritajn celpafojn kontraux 
la persono Rick Harrison. Laux mia scio, la meritanto restas oportune 
(kaj, eble, sagxe) anonima.

=============================================
Don HARLOW                                Redaktoro Esperanto U.S.A.
tel. (1 510) 222 0187
CompuServe [72627,2647]
Internet 72627.2647@compuserve.com

"To discipline Esperantists is to eat soup with chopsticks."
                                                          Confucius
=============================================
From: JLIECHTY@UCS.INDIANA.EDU (Jon Liechty)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.esperanto
Subject: Amik(in)o
Date: 17 Aug 92 21:46:47 GMT
Distribution: inet
Organization: The Internet


	Mi tre sxatas vidi, ke tiom multaj NE uzas la vorton "amikino"
tiel, kiel oni uzas la anglan "girlfriend".  Pro tio, decas ke mi
(iom rugx-vange) citu la lokon, kie mi trovis tian uzon: la kanto "Mi Ne
Volas", de Amplifiki.  Eble mi ne min gxenu tiom...
			-Jon

Newsgroups: soc.culture.esperanto
From: pcj1@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu (Pierre Jelenc)
Subject: Re: Interlingua
Reply-To: pcj1@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu (Pierre Jelenc)
Organization: Columbia University
Distribution: inet
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 11:41:39 GMT

In article <1992Aug20.103352.6632@kth.se> TordM@VanD.PhySto.SE writes:
>In article <9208200505.AA16214@cognos.COM>, lendonc@cognos.com (Cleve Lendon 3821) writes:
>
>>>There are too many Esperantists who either view themselves as members of
>>>some exclusive club, or who are so possessed by ideas of world
>>>peace/brotherhood/whatever, that they ignore the fact that Esperanto
>>>simply isn't catching on.
>
>>Firstly, our "club" is not exclusive.
>
> just for information, I was informed that "Universala Esperanto Asocio"
>has a very high membership cost thus exluding some people who can't afford
>it, and if that isn't "exclusive"

> Tord Malmgren | InterNet: TordM@VanD.PhySto.SE | These opinions are my own,
>               | BITNet  : TordM@SESUF51        | and NOT of this department!
>---------------+--------------------------------
> Department of Physics, University of Stockholm 

The cost of UEA membership is a bit high for those who can pay (rich countries)
in order to subsidize low fees for poor countries. There is also a foundation
that pays altogether for people who cannot afford to. True, it's not free for 
all, but UEA is trying. Anyway for a Swede the basic membership is 40Skr.


Pierre


Pierre Jelenc                        pcj1@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu 
                                    Columbia University, New York
From: thorinn@DIKU.DK (Lars Henrik Mathiesen)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.esperanto
Subject: [Anglolingvo/English] easy to learn English?
Date: 13 Aug 92 19:57:55 GMT
Distribution: inet
Organization: The Internet

uchinews!ellis!hau4@uunet.uu.net (sven hauptfeld) writes:
>I know of no language that contains gender information while being
>gender-symmetric, i.e. in which you can tell if the person mentioned
>is male or female AND in most such cases neither is derived from the
>other with an ending meaning "female" ("male" in any language?).

Perhaps there are no ``natural'' languages with that property, but in
the constructed language Novial, any noun that can take a gender
marking (presumably, any noun denoting a person) has _three_ forms: -o
is male, -a is female, and -e is both/neither/unknown. (Other nouns
can end in -o or -a without implication of gender, and often do when
that makes them look more like their ``ancestor'' in some European
language.)

Of course, the inventor (Jespersen) was a linguist, and furthermore,
he actually seems to have tried to learn from the decades of criticism
directed at Esperanto and its earlier followers --- so his language is
not very typical of its kind.

Lars Mathiesen (U of Copenhagen CS Dep) <thorinn@diku.dk> (Humour NOT marked)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.esperanto
Subject: Esperanta Kurso de Universitato de Hartford
From: saunders_j@cho006.cho.ge.com
Date: 11 Aug 92 09:40:07 EDT
Organization: GE Fanuc Automation, North America

Dankon al la lingva servo kiu           Thanks the "lingva servo" for
korektis miajn erarojn.                 correcting my mistakes.

- Esperanto -                           - Angla Lingvo -

Saluton cxiuj!                          Hello everyone!

Dum la semajno de 13-a al 18-a          My wife and I went to the Esperanto
julio, mi kaj mia edzino iris al la     course at the University of Hartford
Esperanta kurso de la Universitato      during the week of 13 to 18 July. We
de Hartford. Ni estis en la elementa    were in the basic class.
kurso.

La instruistoj estis tre bonaj.         The instructors were very good.
Duncan Charters instruis la pli         Duncan Charters taught most of the
grandan parton de la kurso por          beginners' classes. He was
komencantoj Li estis bonega: amuza      excellent: funny and nice. John
kaj simpatia. Ankaux John Wells, la     Wells, the president of the UEA,
prezidanto de la UEA, instruis nin.     also taught us. He, too, is a good
Ankaux li estas bona instruisto.        teacher. Humphrey Tonkin, the
Humphrey Tonkin, la prezidanto de la    president of the university and
universitato and pasinta prezidanto     former president of the UEA, and his
de UEA, kaj nia edzino Jane Edwards     wife were instructors, but not for
estis instruistoj, sed ne por la        the basic class.
elementa kurso.

Ni estis tre kontentaj tie. Se vi       We had a lot of fun there. If you
volas lerni Esperanon, iru al cxi       want to learn Esperanto, go to these
tiuj kursoj. Ili denove okazigos la     courses. They will be having the
kurson dum la venonta somero.  La       course again next summer.  The
kurso dauxris dum nur unu semajno,      course only lasts a week, so even
do personoj kiuj laboris povas iri      people who work can go to it.
al gxi.

P.S. - I may be having problems with my postings. If you see this
posting on soc.culture.esperanto, please e-mail me and let me
know. Thanks!
--
Jonathan SAUNDERS <saunders_j@alb000.dnet.ge.com>|The opinions in this message
GE Fanuc, Albany, NY USA (UTC-4) +1 518 464 4594 |are  the  author's,  and are
Mi lernas la internacian lingvon Esperanton ^. .^|not those  of  GE  Fanuc  or
por promocii internacian komprenadon!       =='==|any other company or person.
From: 72627.2647@compuserve.com (Don HARLOW)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.esperanto
Subject: Re: [Anglolingvo/English] easy to learn
Date: 16 Aug 92 19:57:34 GMT
Distribution: inet
Organization: The Internet

To: Esperanto >INTERNET:esperanto@rand.org

Dato: 920816

Barry Crown and Mike Urban on counting systems (I think Barry's comment was in
eesponse to something by Lars Matthiessen on Novial):

>> Jespersen was indeed a linguist, and I believe that he was quite famous in
>> his time.  However, he seems to have been totally ignorant of Chinese.  The
>> Chinese use exactly the same system of counting numbers as the Esperantists,
>> without showing any signs of confusion.


>There is a toy Unix program running around somewhere that converts
>numerals to text, with assorted configuration files to govern the
>conversion to a variety of languages, incluing English, Mandarin, and
>Esperanto.  The length of these files can be taken as a sort of crude
>metric of the complexity of a language's counting system.  Mandarin
>had the shortest file, Esperanto the second shortest (I believe the
>distinction between forms like `dekdu' and `dudek du' was the
>additional complexity.), and English was, if I recall aright, one of
>the longest.

While I was driving to work one morning a couple of years ago, I 
heard a report on KCBS that a professor at San Jose State University, 
trying to determine why men generally do better at math than women 
do (probably because little girls spend so much time being told that 
they _can't_ do math well, I suspect), stumbled over the fact that the 
very real superiority of Asian (i.e. Chinese and Japanese) immigrants 
in this field derives from this Esperanto-like counting system. This 
superiority generally disappears with the (monolingual-English) third 
or fourth generation of native-born Americans of Asian descent.

Incidentally, and _non sequitur_, I used to car-pool with a Japanese-
American woman who told me that her first assignment in the Social 
Security administration was to the office in San Francisco's Chinatown 
since, because she was Asian, she would obviously be able to talk 
with the people there in their own language. You can draw your own 
conclusions about the intelligence level of certain officials in 
our government.

=============================================
Don HARLOW                                Redaktoro Esperanto U.S.A.
tel. (1 510) 222 0187
CompuServe [72627,2647]
Internet 72627.2647@compuserve.com

"To discipline Esperantists is to eat soup with chopsticks."
                                                          Confucius
=============================================
From: dfkihueg@RZ.UNI-SB.DE ("Edmund Grimley-Evans")
Newsgroups: soc.culture.esperanto
Subject: GERDA Helpu!
Date: 20 Aug 92 11:49:32 GMT
Distribution: inet
Organization: The Internet

^Car ver^sajne pluraj legantoj ^satus scii, jen kelkaj informoj pri la
stato de la GERDA-kurso en la Reto:

De pluraj monatoj mi mem gvidas aron da studantoj tra la kurso. Tri el
ili ankora^u ne resendis e^c la unuan lecionon, ok el ili diligente
studas, kaj unu ^jus finis la kurson. Sume do 12 ali^gintoj.

La trilingvaj anoncoj, kiujn mi lastatempe dissendis, ka^uzis 11 novajn
ali^gintojn, kiujn mi disdonis al la skipo de instruantoj, kiu nun
ampleksas 5 personojn. Krome skribis al mi 5 homoj, kiujn vere
interesas la Senkosta Esperanto-Kurso. Al ili mi donis kompreneble la
adreson de Derk EDERVEEN.

Du el la instruantoj diris, ke ili povas akcepti nur po unu lernanton.
Unu volis havi nur du. La aliaj du ricevis do 3 kaj 4 lernantojn
respektive. Kvankam nia instrukapacito ankora^u ne estas foruzita, ni
tro proksimi^gas al la limo por povi alskribi ^ciujn SEK-finintojn pri
la kurso. Pro tio mi petas de vi helpon:

Se vi bone scipovas Esperanton, ofertu vian helpon kiel instruanto de
la GERDA-kurso. ^Gi ne estas treege temporaba afero. Se vi havas
sufi^ce da tempo por legi tiun ^ci nova^joliston, vi ver^sajne havus
sufi^ce da tempo por instrui per GERDA!

Edmund

(SEK = Senkosta Esperanto-Kurso = FEC a^u CGE, ^car neniu ^sajnas scii,
kio okazis pri la planita germana versio...)

=======================================================================
Edmund GRIMLEY EVANS                              dfkihueg@rz.uni-sb.de
=======================================================================
From: bas+@andrew.cmu.edu (Bruce Sherwood)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.esperanto
Subject: Re: Berkeley Esperanto course
Date: 12 Aug 92 06:39:59 GMT
Distribution: inet
Organization: Cntr for Design of Educational Computing, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA

Gratulojn al Don Harlow kaj aliaj, ke oni sukcesis starigi DU
Esperanto-kursojn cxe la prestigxa Universitato de Kalifornio cxe
Berkeley!  Don, cxu vi povus rakonti al ni iom pri la ekesto de tiuj
kursoj?

Bruce
From: kuncej@mdceng.UUCP (Jeffrey J. Kunce)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.esperanto
Subject: Re: Ido-Vivo, nun amindumaj bestoj
Date: 21 Aug 92 15:48:56 GMT
Distribution: inet
Organization: The Internet


 Wim> Jeff, thanks for defencing, although it was not really necessary...

 Kevin> mi kredas (eble erare) ke cxiu komprenas ke mi fundamente estimas 
 Kevin> ilin ecx se mi parolas petole.

I didn't really intend to rescue Wim or to attack Kevin. I apologize for 
sounding that way (I *did* have a headache that day). 

However, I do feel that Esperantists should be tolerant of non-esperanto
linguistic errors, and that they should sensitive to cultures/morals
different from their own (even if they don't agree with them).


Fakte, mi ne intencis savi Wim-on, kaj mi ne intencis ataki al Kevin.
Mi pardonpetas por mi skribi tiel (Mi tiam jam kapdolorigxas).

Tamen, mi kredas ke: 1) Esperantistoj devus toleri neesperantajn lingvistikajn
erarojn. kaj 2) Esperantistoj devus respekti tiujn morojn, kiuj estas
malsimilaj ol siaj propraj moroj.


 Kevin> Hmmm, ... kia muziko placxas al vi?

Mi bedauxras, sed mi ankoraux kapdolorigxas...

  --Jeff  kuncej@mocons.gov
Newsgroups: soc.culture.esperanto
From: pcj1@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu (Pierre Jelenc)
Subject: Re: [Anglolingvo/English] easy to learn English?
Reply-To: pcj1@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu (Pierre Jelenc)
Organization: Columbia University
Distribution: usa
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1992 22:39:51 GMT

In article <1992Aug16.180936.5999@sol.cs.wmich.edu> brewer@sol.cs.wmich.edu (Steve Brewer) writes:
>
>I tried using Esperanto to take notes as a tool for practicing and
>for fun (ie having notes that other people might see and say, "Hey,
>what does that say?" giving me an _entre_ into a declamation about
>Esperanto :-).  I found it didn't work well at all, for me.  I've
>noticed that I have a hard time switching back and forth between
>English and the other languages I speak, Epseranto being no exception.
>So, I'd hear something in English, translate it into Esperanto, write
>it down, and then realize I'd just missed the next thing the prof said 
>because I was still thinking in Esperanto.  In talking to other people
>who can switch back and forth more quickly, I've decided that this is
>probably just a skill that I could acquire if I worked hard enough at
>it, but I'm too lazy to try.  
>
>Being a native English speaker, I don't have any idea what a foreign
>language speaker's experience in an _usona_ classroom would be.  

I have always taken notes in the language of the lecture, and that
includes French, Esperanto, English, and Swedish in chronological
order. To try and interpose a translation step would be at the
detriment of attention or comprehension.

Pierre


Pierre Jelenc                        pcj1@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu 
                                    Columbia University, New York
From: JLIECHTY@UCS.INDIANA.EDU (Jon Liechty)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.esperanto
Subject: Re: easy to learn English?
Date: 13 Aug 92 19:41:17 GMT
Distribution: inet
Organization: The Internet


	As Charlie Galvin has pointed out, "patrino" can be replaced
by "naskinto" ("one who has given birth").  It's perfect Esperanto, and
easily understood without explanation.
	There is another use of the "-in" suffix that I find very strange
and would like to see explained: the word "amikino" used to mean "girlfriend"
in the same sense as in English.  This isn't just a "female friend", but a 
"female friend with whom one is having a very close (possibly sexual)
relationship".  In "classic" Esperanto, this usage is very strange; "amiko"
would mean a male friend, but never a "boyfriend".  The only way "amikino"
makes any sense at all is if you use a more "modern" interpretation: "amiko"
itself is sexless, and the "-in" suffix is needed to emphasize that the
word does not have its usual meaning.  I assume that a woman (or, for
that matter, a gay man) could use "vir-amiko" for the same approximate
effect, but I've never seen this done.  Comments, anyone?
		-Jon
Newsgroups: soc.culture.esperanto
From: hiraas@RSUAP1.NRL.NAVY.MIL (Hiraas Data Account)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.esperanto
Subject: Tonkin
Date: 13 Aug 92 18:37:52 GMT
Distribution: inet
Organization: The Internet



^Cu iu konas la adreson de Humphrey Tonkin, imperiisto de la Universitato
de Hartford, kaj gravulo en Esperantujo?  Dankon.

Noam
From: dfkihueg@RZ.UNI-SB.DE ("Edmund Grimley-Evans")
Newsgroups: soc.culture.esperanto
Subject: The GERDA-course in the Net
Date: 17 Aug 92 12:30:25 GMT
Distribution: inet
Organization: The Internet

(Mi samtempe sendas Esperantan tradukon.)

                        THE GERDA-COURSE IN THE NET

The GERDA-course is an intermediate Esperanto-course for the
computer-network. It uses the text of the well-known book "Gerda
malaperis!" by Claude PIRON, which is already widely used for teaching
in classes. The book is a miniature detective-story using a carefully
controlled vocabulary, so that the most important and frequent
Esperanto words appear first in the book, and the less important words
later. The grammar is also graded to a certain extent; the accusative
is not used in the first two lessons, for example. For someone who has
completed FEC/CGE the first few chapters are somewhat too simple, but
by the end of the course one should have learnt 1000 of the most
important and useful Esperanto words in a natural and entertaining way,
and one will had much exercise in thinking, reading and writing in
Esperanto.

The course consists of 25 chapters, to each of which I have added
comprehension-questions about the contents of the chapter and various
types of exercises. There is also a large file containing all the
necessary words with translations and explanations. Ideally all
communication between learner and instructor should be in Esperanto and
all the course-matierals should be purely in Esperanto apart from the
large word-list and one introductory file. In practice however it is
often very convenient to use another language for explanations, so I
certainly do not want to forbid the use of other languages!

As I write, the file "vortlisto" with the translations of all the
words needed is available only in English and in German. As a book
however it is available also in several other languages.

If you want to continue learning Esperanto using the GERDA-course,
please write to me. I will put you in contact with an experienced
Esperanto-speaker, who will send you the lessons and guide you through
the course.

	Edmund GRIMLEY EVANS
	dfkihueg@rz.uni-sb.de
	(coordinator of the GERDA-course in the Net)

=======================================================================
Edmund GRIMLEY EVANS                              dfkihueg@rz.uni-sb.de
=======================================================================
Newsgroups: soc.culture.esperanto
From: krak@quads.uchicago.edu (leszek  kordylewski)
Subject: Re: easy to learn English?
Reply-To: krak@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Distribution: inet
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1992 16:46:05 GMT

In article <199208131941.AA15031@rand.org> JLIECHTY@UCS.INDIANA.EDU (Jon Liechty) writes:
>
>	As Charlie Galvin has pointed out, "patrino" can be replaced
>by "naskinto" ("one who has given birth").  It's perfect Esperanto, and
>easily understood without explanation.

No, it cannot be replaced. "Naskinto" has a different meaning. It is
more related to the delivery room than to the family life. 

-- 
KRAK@MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU
From: rick@ee.uwm.edu (Rick Miller / Ricxjo Muelisto)
Subject: Re: Interlingua?
Summary: I checked it out.
Organization: University of Wisconsin, Milwaukee
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 19:22:00 GMT

After the first article mentioning Interlingua, I went to the local
public library and checked out one of its mere two books on the topic.
It was an Interlingua --> English dictionary from the 1950's with a
fairly extensive introduction to what Interlingua was meant to be.

A few aspects struck me...

1. The inventors of Interlingua strive to set it apart as its own language,
     while at the same time claiming that it embodies the 'root' of all the
     languages it was derived from.  They even went so far as to say that,
     "Even though the Interlingua word 'foo' is pronounced and spelled the
     same as its Spanish, Portugese, and Italian equivalents, the word 'foo'
     is *not* Spanish, Portugese, or Italian... it is Interlingua."

2. Interlingua is *not* very regular with regard to either spelling or
     pronunciation...  Though it may be easier to comprehend *on* *SIGHT*
     for native speakers of Romance language derivatives, translation in
     the opposite direction (English --> Interlingua) is not so easy.

3. Interlingua has quite a few examples of where two words, differing in
     their endings, mean exactly the same thing.  Why?

4. Then there is the puzzle of words which *apparently* have the same root,
     but it is claimed that they are unrelated... For example:
     mar=sea, marin=oceanic, and marina=navy... but they say that
     marina is a *separate* root word, and not derived from mar or marin.

Rick Miller   <rick@ee.uwm.edu> | <rick@discus.mil.wi.us>
From: gejulo@aol.com
Newsgroups: soc.culture.esperanto
Subject: help
Date: 20 Aug 92 06:28:37 GMT
Distribution: inet
Organization: The Internet

Since my request "esperante" was ignored, I'll try "angle."

Please remove me from the mailing list.  I simply can't AFFORD the on line
time required to read all the mail I get from rand.org. 

It's great, and I wish I could continue to be on the list, BUT I CAN'T!
Please, please, bonvoluuuuuuuuuu! eksigi mian nomon de via membrolisto.
bonvoooooluuuuuu! :-(
From: DWOLFF@RES-C4.PRIME.COM (David Wolff)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.esperanto
Subject: Re: Tonkin
Date: 13 Aug 92 19:26:48 GMT
Distribution: inet
Organization: The Internet

hiraas@rsuap1.nrl.navy.mil (Hiraas Data Account) skribas:

> ^Cu iu konas la adreson de Humphrey Tonkin, imperiisto de la Universitato
> de Hartford, kaj gravulo en Esperantujo?  Dankon.
>
> Noam

"Imperiisto"??  Tio signifus, ke li estas super-reg^o -- li estas nur
prezidanto de la Universitato :-).  Uzu...

    Office of the Emperor... uups, President
    University of Hartford
    200 Bloomfield Avenue
    West Hartford CT 06117
    (800) 234-4412 or (203) 768-4401

Se vi vere bezonas elektronikan adreson, skribu al mi (mi ne scias, c^u li
volas, ke c^iu sciu tion).

David Wolff

dwolff@RES-C4.Prime.COM

Disclaimer:  Reflecting Prime policy is a non-goal of this posting.
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             Call (800) 828-5944 for free info package (US or Canada)
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