From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: Jews For Germans
Originator: news@nimaster
Reply-To: roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig)
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 05:31:35 GMT

In article <1993Jan11.035509.26189@wam.umd.edu> mstern@wam.umd.edu (Michael Stern) writes:
>In article <1iq1q4INNq31@slab.mtholyoke.edu> jbotz@mtholyoke.edu (Jurgen Botz) writes:
>>In article <1993Jan10.172504.25008@wam.umd.edu> mstern@wam.umd.edu (Michael Stern) writes:
>>>I disagree.  When it came to non-Aryans (Jews, Gypsies, etc),
>>>germans of that era were VERY cruel.  There have been plenty of
>>>documented evidence (which I will provide sources to, if you wish)
>>>of average middle-class Germans turning their longtime Jewish
>>>friends into teh Gestapo.  I do not need to tell you what happened
>>>to those people.  In my view, that qualifies as utmost cruelty.

>>Nobody is arguing that... what I'm arguing is that in every single
>>one of the dozens of genocides committed in this century by dozens
>>of ethnic groups against dozens of other ethnic groups you saw that
>>exact same thing, and if you don't believe that, then pack your
>>suitcases and go to Sarajevo or India RIGHT NOW, TODAY, and you'll
>>see the same thing happening again.

>Yes, but not in such mind-blowing numbers as in 30's-40's Germany.

Meaning what?  People are killing people for their ethnic origins,
killing as fast as they can.  Technology would allow them to kill
more.  So what?

>>FACE IT, humans have the capacity for utmost cruelty.

>I think that's well established.

>>On the other hand, in all of those situtations you will also find
>>people of the same ethnic group as the perpetrators who refuse to
>>take part in the orgy or cruelty and stand up for their beliefs.
>>They are always a small minority, and they are always treated the
>>same way as the oppressed group, but they are always there.  They
>>were there in Germany under the Nazis, too, and they were killed
>>just the same as the Jews.  In fact, remember that the Nazis came
>>for the Commuists first of all, regardless of whether those were
>>Jews or Germans.

>Yes, but they did not have a 'Final Solution' for all Communists
>as they did for all Jews.  They killed the Communists for political
>advantage, nothing more nothing less.  They developed a master plan
>of systematically exterminating all Jews for no particular political
>or monetary advantage.  They destroyed teh Jews for no apparent
>reason other than that they were Jews.

Correct.  But now note that "They" is not the German people of today.
Nor, for that matter, was it the German people of the 1940's -- most 
Germans were quite unaware of the Final Solution.  Most were horrified
when they heard of it.

>>>If your grandfather (the SS officer) captured my grandfather
>>>(the partisan peasant) during WW-2, he probably would have 
>>>tortured and killed him.

>>No, that's bullshit.  He probably would have followed his orders,
>>which were most likely to either shoot on sight, or to arrest and turn
>>in for deportation to a concentration camp, but to imply that he would
>>have personally indulged in cruelty beyond that is bullshit... you
>>just don't know that... some percentage of humans will, given the
>>chance and the environment, indulge in such cruelty, and some will
>>not.  This has nothing to do with whether they are German or any of
>>any other ethnic group.  I repeat again... HUMANS are capable of 
>>utmost cruelty... to believe that one ethnic group is more capable
>>of cruelty than another is plain racism and is at the heart of the
>>problem.

>What I wroteorte  above is not at all bullshit.  it happened more often
>than not in the days of my grandfather.  He lost many a comrade to
>sadistic German troops who took great pleasures in torturing a 
>Jewish partisan to death.  But, with a name like 'Jurgen', i do not 
>expect YOU to understand.

Keep racistic shit off the net if you wish to be taken at all seriously.
Your comment is no more enlightened than someone calling you a 
Christ-killer or a kike.  

Now, if you can show us a source other than your grandfather -- for that
matter, if you can show us your grandfather -- to prove that the majority
of the SS were like that, fine.  Then you'll have to prove that the 
vast majority of German troops who were not SS acted that way too, and 
that the vast majority of Germans who  were not soldiers at all did 
likewise. 

Of course, you can't.,   But your racist fantasies are good enough,
aren't they?

>>To say that "Germans are more capable of cruelty than other people"
>>is as bad as saying "all Jews are coniving, thieving opportunists."

>Oh, you are as sharp as a matzah ball!

Another stunning response.  He's right.  What are you going to do about it? 
All you've offered is misinformation, a few anecdotes, and a lot of
slimy racism.  This is not exactly a new high.

>>Is that so hard to understand?

>Dear Jurgen, the Nazis have enough apologists in the US.  Historical
>revisionist is rampant in academia, including that most respected
>seat of learning, Mt. Holyoke.  

I suggest you put your money where your mouth is.  NAme a single 
historical revisionist at Holyoke.  Or shut up.

Oh, and tell us -- how is anything Jurgen said revisionism?

YOU are the revisionist here; you expect us to swallow stupid lies
and stereotypes instead of the facts.

>What revisionists cannot erase, however,
>are the memories of those like my grandfather, who were there and 
>lived through the horrors of the Nazi genocide. Facing up to their
>ugly past is the only way the Germans of today will be able to
>learn to deal with it, and rid themselves of any further Nazi
>inclinations.  

What makes you think that millions of Germans have not spent millions of
hours doing just that?  You, on the other hand, are a simple racist 
jerk, who could learn a lot from the lessons of racism that are 
taught in german schools and elsewhere.  Your postings show that 
you belive that repetition of a lie makes it true -- the way the Nazis
did -- that racial, national, or ethnic attributes determine personality --
the way the Nazis did -- that the grandchildren of criminals are evil
too -- the way the NAzis did.  

If you weren't Jewish, you'd make a fine Nazi.

Roger