HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: sjames@digi.lonestar.org (Stephen James)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Isaac Asimov
Date: 22 Jul 92 11:20:23 GMT
Organization: DSC Communications Corp, Plano, TX

In article <5288@lhdsy1.lahabra.chevron.com> agbwis@lhdsy1.lahabra.chevron.com (Barney W. Issen) writes:
>In article <1992Jul20.093502@IASTATE.EDU> mcoffin@IASTATE.EDU (Marie Coffin) writes:
>>In article <1992Jul20.114145.15630@digi.lonestar.org>, sjames@digi.lonestar.org
>>(Stephen James) writes:
>>> In article <joshua.711457224@coombs> joshua@coombs.anu.edu.au (Joshua Geller)
>>writes:
>>> >cs106b16@umbc5.umbc.edu (cs106b16) writes:
>>> >
>>> >>I know he is gone and regret it since I was a fan of his, but shortly
>>before
>>> >>his death a book, I believe, called Forward The Foundation was supposed to
>>> >>come out. I have not seem this book in any of my local bookstores not have
>>I
>>> >>seen it at the library. If anyone knows if this book has come out and where
>>I
>>> >>might obtain a copy please reply in E-Mail to this message...Thanks in
>>> >>advance!
>>> >
>>> >his later stuff bites rocks. not such massive rocks as 
>>> >heinlein's later stuff, but still.
>>> >
>>> >josh
>>> 
>>> Now this is a brilliant analysis. Although I agree that some of the
>>> later works of Asimov lacked the imagintive flair of the his previous
>>> works, 'bites rocks' is a pretty lame comment. 
>>> 
>>> Stephen
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>>   Stephen A. James (519-2511)    | "We must not allow a mine shaft gap"
>>>   sjames@digi.lonestar.org       | 
>>>   DSC Communications Corporation |  General "Buck" Turgison
>>>   *** Standard Disclaimer ***    |  - Dr. Strangelove or How I ...
>>
>>Oh, I dunno.  I'm a big fan of Heinlein, but I'd have to say Joshua was
>>pretty much on the mark.
>>
>>Marie Coffin
>
>Make that VERY much on the mark!  (Speaking as a fan, not a detractor)
>
>                                     - Barney Issen      


Hey, I wasn't disagreeing with the ultimate analysis, I just thought
the phrase 'bites rocks' left a lot to be desired in a intellectually
satisfying analysis of Asimovs final works.

- Stephen James
-- 
  Stephen A. James (519-2511)    | "We must not allow a mine shaft gap"
  sjames@digi.lonestar.org       | 
  DSC Communications Corporation |  General "Buck" Turgison
  *** Standard Disclaimer ***    |  - Dr. Strangelove or How I ...
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: spg@Xenon.Stanford.EDU (Stephen P. Guthrie)
Subject: Re: Recent Reading
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University.
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 17:13:11 GMT

>Jeff Davis writes:
>
>	While _Utz_ can be read straight up, the fact that Chatwin thought
>	he was dying of a rare and exotic bone disease which he contracted
>	in China turns the elegant, chilly themes of _Utz_ into something
>	a little more Purgatorial. 
>

Was it, in fact, AIDS that Chatwin died of? I've heard conflicting reports.



Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: calvo@nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov (Sherri Calvo)
Subject: Re: Little Men
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: NASA - Goddard Space Flight Center
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 13:58:00 GMT

In article <BrrA0s.8xJ@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, levine@symcom.math.uiuc.edu (Lenore Levine) writes...
>Little Men (by Louisa May Alcott) was the first "adult" (that is, non-primer) 
>book I read, when I was about five or six. I believed Plumfield was real 
>and wandered all around the neighborhood looking for it.
> 
>My question is: Has anyone read the book recently? How well does it
>stand up?

Little Men was one of my favorites when I was a kid, but I haven't 
seen it recently. I have, though, been able to test how well various 
other childhood favorites of mine have withstood the passage of 25 
years or so, now that I get to read them with my son, age 7.

Lewis Carroll and A.A. Milne IMHO are the best by far. They interest 
my kid, they still interest me, and they manage not to be dated 
despite some anachronistic vocabulary.

By contrast, I remember reading and enjoying the original Mary Poppins 
books when I was five or six (interest prompted by seeing the Disney 
movie) but when I picked them up at a used bookstore recently and 
started reading them to my son at bedtime I was horrified to discover 
blatantly racist passages of which I had no recollection. "Swiss Family 
Robinson", another book I read and re-read in my youth, turned out 
upon recent re-examination to be full of goopy religious 
sentimentality.

Anybody else dig out the dusty classics of their childhood lately? How 
did it go?

Sherri

Sherri Chasin Calvo
calvo@nssdca.gsfc.nasa.gov
From: tmaddox@netcom.com (Tom Maddox)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Escobar of Escobar Hall
Date: 29 Jul 92 06:36:07 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)

In article <1992Jul28.131406.10241@morrow.stanford.edu> francis@oas.stanford.edu (Francis Muir) writes:
>PS If you play Maddox backwards you hear from the devil himself:

	Hum a few bars and I'll fake it.

>	XODDAM!

>and his nom de net, MAD DOG, barks out

>	GODDAM!

	Why, Fido, did someone slip gunpowder into your marmite?

	A while back you got like this, so maybe you're subject to
something cyclical and bipolar.  Or perhaps you mistake the pink capsules 
for the blue ones every now and then.

	I hope you're not driving or operating any heavy machinery that might
damage anyone but yourself.


-- 
				Tom Maddox
		    	    tmaddox@netcom.com
		   "I swear I never heard the first shot"
                Wm. Gibson, "Agrippa:  a book of the dead"
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: mnemonic@eff.org (Mike Godwin)
Subject: Re: Great American Novel
Originator: mnemonic@eff.org
Organization: Electronic Frontier Foundation
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 22:38:13 GMT

In article <55530@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> westr@mace.cc.purdue.edu (Robert _FinnAgain_ West) writes:

>	I don't know. Perhaps it's just my love-affair with _GR_, but
>comparatively _Vineland_ was a serious disappointment. It felt like
>the archetypal "rebel" novel.

I think the difference in scope betwen GRAVITY'S RAINBOW and VINELAND may
have led you to miss the subtlety and beauty of the latter book. In some
ways, it's a more mature work.

I recently had the experience of reading a chapter aloud (a group project
on the WELL to produce a read-aloud version of VINELAND for some blind
WELL users). Pynchon's ear for the American tongue, which had always been
uneven but occasionally brilliant, is consistently brilliant in VINELAND.


--Mike




-- 
Mike Godwin,     |"Crime is contagious. If the Government becomes a law-
mnemonic@eff.org | breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every
(617) 864-0665   | man to become a law unto himself. It invites anarchy."
EFF, Cambridge   |         --Brandeis, J., dissenting in Olmstead v. U.S.
From: pchen@jarrett.crhc.uiuc.edu (Paul Chen)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: origin of skid row
Date: 30 Jul 1992 18:54:49 -0500
Organization: Center for Reliable and High-Performance Computing, University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
NNTP-Posting-Host: jarrett.crhc.uiuc.edu

carlj@muppet.bt.co.uk (Carl Johnson) writes:

>does anyone know the origin of the term?


the UofIllinois' online OED says this for "skid row":

     skid row   Chiefly N. Amer. Also with capital initials.
     [Altered f. skid road (b) s.v. SKID sb. 5.] a Any run-down
     area of a town where the unemployed, vagrants, alcoholics,
     etc., tend to congregate.  Also fig.

then, from "skid":

     skid road, (a) a way or track formed of skids (2 d) along which
     logs are hauled; (b) N.  Amer., orig. a downtown area frequented
     by loggers; now gen. = SKID ROW.

     2 d Lumbering.  One of a set of peeled logs or timbers, partially
     sunk into the ground, and forming a roadway along or down which
     logs are drawn or slid; also, one of the logs forming a skidway.
     U.S.

sounds like perhaps the loggers were not popular in town.
nor are they too popular when out deforesting.  what's a logger to do?
wear high heels ... ?  ;)

paul
Xref: sparky rec.arts.books:13322 rec.arts.sf.misc:2264 rec.humor:24760 alt.folklore.urban:19998 alt.religion.kibology:3257
From: rone@alcor.usc.edu (Ron Echeverri)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,rec.arts.sf.misc,rec.humor,alt.folklore.urban,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Re: who was Sam Walton ( was When did Isaac Asimov die?)
Followup-To: alt.folklore.urban
Date: 28 Jul 1992 22:39:28 -0700
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: alcor.usc.edu

In article <Bs3vrE.52F@acsu.buffalo.edu> riawelch@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (K. W. WELCH) writes:
>In article <1992Jul27.055402.21928@nezsdc.icl.co.nz>, derek@nezsdc.icl.co.nz (Derek Tearne) writes...
>>OK who was Sam Walton?  Whoever he was I saw no coverage of his death.
>Sam Walton founded Walmart, the chain of discount department stores, and was 
>at his death one of the wealthiest individuals in America.
	      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

THE wealthiest.  He's winning the game so far.

5150
"Whomever dies with the most toys, wins."
	(setting followups to alt.folklore.urban, for lack of a better choice)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: nmrdb@vms.macc.wisc.edu (BEVERLY SEAVEY)
Subject: Re: Mister Flibbertygib
Organization:  University of Wisconsin Academic Computing Center
Date: 27 JUL 92 09:08:42    

In article <3jlm56#.tmaddox@netcom.com>, tmaddox@netcom.com (Tom Maddox) writes...

>	My companion/significant other/partner/spouse equivalent (etc.) wants
>to find a Golden Book of yore:  to wit, one _Mister Flibbertygib_, so she says,
>which concerns a Very Nervous Mr. Flibb., bothered by noises, whose problems
>are resolved when he takes his wife's advice to "eat your roast beef and 
>wear your mittens."
> 

I think the actual title was "Mr. Flibbertygigit", but I could be wrong.
We had that book. I think it may have been a "Little Golden Book". I
have seen some of the '50's versions rereleased in grocery stores recently.
I think a children's librarian would have no trouble ( My mother is one-I
can ask her)


Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: adolphso@mizar.usc.edu (adolphson)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Great American Novel
Date: 29 Jul 1992 14:29:21 -0700
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
Distribution: usa
NNTP-Posting-Host: mizar.usc.edu

In article <1992Jul29.204709.26622@PacBell.COM> 
rjwill6@PacBell.COM (Rod Williams) writes:

> Another candidate for your inspection:
>
>          Gore Vidal, "Myra Breckenridge"

Oh my, yes.  There's also his very wicked "Duluth", a brilliant
satire in the Roman tradition.

Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: gere@umunhum.stanford.edu (Susan Gere)
Subject: Re: Unspoken Words
Keywords: Party games?
Organization: Stanford University CSL
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 92 22:23:03 GMT

francis@oas.stanford.edu (Francis Muir) writes:
 >David Kassover writes:
 >
 >	Francis Muir writes:
 >
 >		So please step out from your miasmatic gloom and get ready 
 >		to party, since this is the First Notice of the First Annual 
 >		Classic Memorial West Coast Rabbinical Potluck Supper and 
 >		Bookfest, currently being organized by our own Susan Gere. 
 >		Da da! So, no more of that infectious or noxious exhalation 
 >		from putrescent organic matter, and let the games commence.
 >
 >	This sounds like a real blast.  What kind of games are on the agenda?
 >
 >Fowler's Rules, so it'll be an agendum. Great minds wrestling, little minds 
 >running at the mouth, &c. At least one Net Angel has promised to demonstrate 
 >how easy it isn't to dance on the point of a needle. Think of it as an 
 >intellectual sleepover or Bookfest at Tiffany's.
 >
 >							Fido
 >
    I think we're going to need a R.A.B. drinking game.  First, everyone
brings your favorite port, sherry, or single malt scotch.  Then hoist a
glass for each instance of:  

 a)  Nested indentations beyond 2 tab stops from Francis.
 b)  Articles of more than 5 lines (own words) from JMC.
 c)  New address from INFIDEL to confound kill files.
 d)  Anything with expired dateline from Mike Morris.

 e)  Other suggestions?


A moment of silence will be observed for the dearly departed Joe Green.
Xref: sparky rec.arts.books:12902 rec.arts.sf.misc:2168 rec.humor:24353 alt.folklore.urban:19603 alt.religion.kibology:3172
From: manley@iies.ecn.purdue.edu (HELD HOSTAGE -- YEAR ONE)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,rec.arts.sf.misc,rec.humor,alt.folklore.urban,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Re: help please, when did Isaac Asimov die?
Date: 23 Jul 92 20:04:44 GMT
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network

In article <1992Jul22.222629.6362@dscomsf.desy.de> hallam@zeus02.desy.de writes:
>
>The Azimov death myth has been about since the seventies. Azimov himself
>debunked it in his book of collected short stories:
>
>"Many of my readers assume that I am dead and are quite surprised to
>find me still alive. Nevertheless this is indeed the case."
>
>
>Need I say more?
>
>Phill

Looks like it finally caught up with him.  6 April 1992 was not a good day.
One book of Asimov's collected short stories?  That would be on hell of a
big book.

M.
--
------------------------  manley@iies.ecn.purdue.edu  ------------------------
                              Nobody likes you.
                            Everybody hates you.
                             You're gonna lose.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,alt.books.reviews
From: mcoffin@IASTATE.EDU (Marie Coffin)
Subject: Re: RAH
Reply-To: mcoffin@IASTATE.EDU (Marie Coffin)
Organization: Iowa State University
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 18:06:51 GMT

In article <1992Jul24.163227.4521@bas-a.bcc.ac.uk>, ccaajmf@ucl.ac.uk (John
Franks) writes:
> While RAH has come up (and by the way, sorry if I missed anything along this
> line - I just spotted this group), I found a novel called "Farnham's
Freehold"
> in a little second-hand bookshop near me the other day, and basically, I 
> thought it was among the best Heinlein I've read. But I've never seen it new,
> this was a 1967 edition (1964 first published). Any comments? It just 
> intrigued me.
> 
> By the way, it starts off with a nuclear holocaust and - among other things -
> a "young, pretty, intelligent female" type character - much like any of the
> ones in many of his other books - dies (with her child) in child-birth. This
> really surprised me. 
> 
> Comments? Thoughts?
> 
> John Franks, ccaajmf@ucl.ac.uk or jmf14@phx.cam.ac.uk to readers in
Cambridge.
>      "And a thousand slimy things
>       Lived on; and so did I." 

I read Farnham's Freehold a long time ago, and liked it.  The plot is nicely
worked out, tight, and interesting.  For some reason, it was never very
popular.  

Marie Coffin
Xref: sparky rec.arts.books:13095 alt.horror:2850
From: phaedrus@cs.washington.edu (Mark Phaedrus)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,alt.horror
Subject: Transformation list just posted; additions eagerly wanted
Date: 26 Jul 92 01:00:40 GMT
Organization: University of Washington Computer Science


     I just posted a rather long list of books and stories involving
transformation themes to rec.arts.sf.written.  I wanted to diversify this
list beyond the sf/fantasy emphasis it has now, so I had planned on 
crossposting it to rec.arts.books and alt.horror, but our NNTP server is
screwed up, and the only way I could get the list posted was to send it to 
the ucbvax gateway, which doesn't allow multiple newsgroups.  So I'll just 
ask anyone interested in the list and/or willing to help me expand it to 
look in rec.arts.sf.written for the four posts with "Transformation stories
list, v7" in the header, or to mail me for a copy.  Thank you very much in
advance for any help you can give me in expanding the list.



-- 
\ Mark Phaedrus, Computer Science Major, Univ. of Washington, Seattle, WA \*\
*\ Work: phaedrus@cs.washington.edu        Play: phaedrus@u.washington.edu \*\
\*\ Cute .sig quote still under alpha-testing; planned for release in 1993. \*\
 - Hi!  I'm an anti-virus utility!  Install me in your .signature right away! -
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: mtaranto@shearson.com (Mark Taranto)
Subject: Re: Asimov and the Decay of SF
Organization: Yale CS Mail/News Gateway
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1992 21:03:06 GMT


tmaddox@netcom.com (Tom Maddox) writes:

> joannee@fscott.UUCP (Joanne Eglash) writes:

>> I have a friend who claims that my love of literature is "a mere
>> hobby" and that "reading any kind of fiction would be a waste of
>> my time."  He's a scientist (specializes in an esoteric branch of
>> biology that I can't even remember how to spell, let alone
>> understand :-), and he refuses to read ANY novels.  He reads only
>> books by scientists (and yes, I've seen him check their credentials
>> on the book jacket -- a doctorate from Yale or Harvard is approved
>> worthy of his reading time).

>       Your friend is a snob and a provincial.  He is probably beyond anyone's
> help, yours included.  If he thinks that only science is worth reading, and
> only science done at Harvard and Yale at that, he is also deluded in very
> fundamental way.

>       I would advise you to sneak up behind him and hit him really hard
> on the top of the head with a rubber mallet.  You might shake loose something
> interesting, and from your report, you can't do him any real harm.

Tom's suggests a zen-like approach to sudden enlightenment, reminds me
that ZEN AND THE ART OF MOTORCYCLE MAINTENANCE might be a good choice.
People usually say that the book is about the search for quality, but I
found that the most interesting part of the book dealt with the dichotomy
between the Aristotelian and the Platonic, between those who can do
motorcycle maintenance and those who cannot, between those who are
scientists and those who are in the arts.

Mark


Xref: sparky rec.arts.books:12837 rec.arts.sf.misc:2134 rec.humor:24245 alt.folklore.urban:19481 alt.religion.kibology:3151
From: twcaps@tennyson.lbl.gov (Terry Chan)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,rec.arts.sf.misc,rec.humor,alt.folklore.urban,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Re: help please, when did Isaac Asimov die?
Date: 22 Jul 1992 23:29:53 GMT
Organization: Narnia
Reply-To: TWChan@lbl.gov (Terry Chan)
NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.3.12.117

In article <1992Jul22.202312.15232@rchland.ibm.com> Pooder@vnet.ibm.com, 
	but I can't receive e-mail, so forget it.  [cool name, BTW] writes:

  +In article <1992Jul22.191303.20390@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com>, 
	billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson) writes:
  +
  +|> I would not say that he was an atheist. 
  + 
  +Perhaps *you* wouldn't, but *he* did in his long two-volume autobiography. 

Ah, what does HE know.


Terry "mono[syllabic]theist" Chan
--
Internet:  TWChan@lbl.gov                           I disclaim all disclaimers.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: djdaneh@pbhyc.PacBell.COM (Dan'l DanehyOakes)
Subject: Film to Book (was Re: P.K. Dick in Hell)
Reply-To: djdaneh@PacBell.COM (Dan'l DanehyOakes)
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 19:20:15 GMT

In article <rauser.712208995@sfu.ca> rauser@fraser.sfu.ca (Richard John Rauser) writes:

>Personally, I think
>all novels based on screenplays are good for nothing except bonfires, but
>that's another matter...

It's a good generalization, but like all generalizations ;*) requires a caveat. 
*Some* books-based-on-movies are actually worthwhile -- this depends on a few 
things, one of which is an extremely talented writer.

My favorite example is Theodore Sturgeon's adaptation of VOYAGE TO THE BOTTOM OF
THE SEA.  He took a rather shallow film (even for Irwin Allen!) and made a
surprisingly good and thoughtful novel out of it -- *without* rearranging
events; sheerly by force of his writing, especially his ability to portray 
character.

Ted also adapted several Western flicks to novel form (not to mention having
written enough original Western short stories to fill a book, STURGEON'S WEST),
of which the only one I've read is THREE QUEENS AND A KING, which I enjoyed only
moderately, but would not use my reaction as a basis, as I haven't read many 
Westerns -- even as a kid I never had much of a taste for them.

I'm told that Orson Scott Card's adaptation of, uh, that underwater pic from
a few years ago -- THE ABYSS? -- was also pretty good, but I haven't read it.


		He's got a mask that's black and white
		  Mine's just black but that's all right
		In silence and cunning he plies his trade
		  I ply mine in silence and shade
		[. . .]
		In the heart of the city it's murder time
		  It ain't no crime to kill a mime
			-- "Killing a Mime" by Visual Purple

Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, Net.Roach
My opinions do NOT represent Pacific Bell,
Professional Development, or anyone else.
But I'm willing to share.
From: barclay@RAIL9000.gatech.edu (Barclay Blanchard)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Dickens vs. Twain
Date: 22 Jul 92 19:58:50 GMT
Organization: Georgia Tech Research Institute

In article <yzfmz!q@lynx.unm.edu> rsquires@cyclops.eece.unm.edu (Roger Squires) writes:
>	The short stories (Hadleyburg, etc.) are must reads,
>	and there is a very good novelette about the devil
>	that for the life of me I can't recall the name
>	(The Perfect Stranger, the Unknown Stranger??).
>	I better look them over again myself.
>
"Mysterious Stranger", I believe.
-- 
Barclay Elizabeth Blanchard    barclay@rail9000@gatech.edu
"I've been laughed at by some of the funniest people."
--Lissie, Alice Walker's _The Temple of My Familiar_
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: tmaddox@netcom.com (Tom Maddox)
Subject: Re: Jumping to conclusions in r.a.b (was Re: Revisited Classics &c.)
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 92 08:51:18 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 

In article <1992Jul24.213643.4839@morrow.stanford.edu> francis@oas.stanford.edu (Francis Muir) writes:
>Giving Mark the claps may not be his idea of fun...

	Don't be absurd.  Mark's had the clap for years.

	(And boy are his arms tired.)

	
-- 
				Tom Maddox
		    	    tmaddox@netcom.com
		   "I swear I never heard the first shot"
                Wm. Gibson, "Agrippa:  a book of the dead"
From: hedlund@reed.edu (Marc Hedlund)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Recommendations wanted for M.F.K.Fisher's books
Date: 26 Jul 92 06:12:11 GMT
Article-I.D.: reed.1992Jul26.061211.10793
Organization: Reed College, Portland, Oregon

In article <4336@nttica.ntt.JP> waynelui@nttica.ntt.jp (Wayne Lui) writes:
>From an article in a recent issue of Newsweek, it was mentioned
>that M.F.K.Fisher, who was a consummate writer on food, passed
>away recently.  It's a shame that I've never heard of her until
>that article.
>
>I'd like to know more about her work.  As a starter, wonder which 
>book is considered to be her most representative work, and which 
>is the most well-known etc.  Would most appreciate the info.

There is a collection entitled _The Art of Eating_ (paperback) which 
contains most of her "better-known" works, and is well-worth buying.
HIGHLY recommended.

-- 
Logged in for fill of sarcasm and hostility -- getting back to work now.
hedlund@reed.edu		Marc Hedlund		    Reed College
(The Doyle Owl is missing and we're really tired of it -- GIVE IT BACK.)
________________________________________________________________________
Xref: sparky rec.arts.books:13580 talk.religion.misc:13149 sci.skeptic:13482