From: agr00@ccc.amdahl.com (Anthony G Rose)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Mormonism
Date: 14 Dec 92 03:53:20 GMT
Reply-To: agr00@JUTS.ccc.amdahl.com (Anthony G Rose)
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA

In article <1992Dec12.070926.61980@cc.usu.edu> slhw4@cc.usu.edu (Jason Hunsaker) writes:
> 
>> What do you mean by 'my interpretation'?  Your prophet said:
>> 
>>      "The Prophet is th only man who speaks for the Lord in
>>       everything".
>> 
>>      "The living prophet is more important than the standard
>>       works".
>> 
>>      "The prophet does not have to say "thus saith the Lord" to
>>       give us scripture".
>> 
>>      "The Prophet and the presidency- the living prophet and
>>       the First Presidency - follw them and be blessed, reject
>>       them and suffer."
>> 
>>                          Ezra Taft Benson
>>                          14 Fundamentals in Following the Prophet
>>                          Pages 1-16
>>                          Feb. 26, 1980
>> 
>>              (Taken from the official "PRESS COPY" version released
>>               by the LDS church).
>
>And, Tony, *Elder* Ezra Taft Benson was called in to the office of
>*President* Spencer W. Kimball about some of these statments he
>made.

Maybe, however he is the living prophet now, so his statements could
not have been off by very much, otherwise he would never have made
it to his current position.  Of course if you choose to view his
being called into the office like the conversion of Saul to Paul
I can see why you would draw your incorrect conclusion regarding the
the prophet.  However, Ezra Taft Benson HAS ALWAYS been a Mormon
so they are NOT comparable.

Either you accept the guidence of your prophet, or you don't.  It appears
to me that you only wish to "follow" the prophet when HE agrees with you.
If that is the case then maybe I'm speaking with the next prophet?

>> Also during this speach, your prophet said the following just
>> before quoting D&C 21:4
>>
>>      "Sometimes there are those who haggle over words. They might
>>       say the Prophet gave us counsel but that we are not
>>       obligated to follow unless he says it is a commandment.
>>       But the Lord says of the Prophet, "Thou shalt give heed
>>       unto ALL HIS WORDS AND COMMANDMENTS which he shall give
>>       unto you."  D&C 21:4
>> 
>> 
>> I don't think this is 'my interpretation'.  
>
>When you fail to temper it with other statements from the LDS
>canon (like D&C 50:19-23; 68:4), it most certainly is.
>
>Isn't that called proof-texting?  Whatever it is, it sure makes
>your arguments look rather one-sided, incomplete, and not well
>researched.
>
>> I know you don't like it, but your prophet said it.  Interprete
>> it for yourself and take it up with him.
>
>The problem, Tony, is determining when the person is speaking as
>a prophet and when he is not.  How can one know the difference? 
>By getting a confirming witness from the Holy Spirit.  Also Bruce
>R. McConckie's quote is relevant here:

If it is a problem determining when the person is speaking as a prophet,
then you have a much more serious problem.  How then are you going to
know when he's speaking for God or of himself in telling you what is
correct?  If you can't determine a difference then YOU can NEVER know
for certain what he is saying is correct.  Of course, if you say YOU
can tell a difference based upon ANY feeling YOU have, then the prophet
becomes subjected to YOU, not God.  Why is it okay for you to quote Elder
Bruce and when I do it he doesn't know what he's talking about?

>Message-ID: <1992Dec9.112353.3027@cbnews.cb.att.com>
>From: wcsa@cbnews.cb.att.com (Willard C. Smith)
>
>[...]
>> Right On. First thing that McConkie would say is:
>>
>>   It makes no difference what is written or what anyone has
>>   said, if what has been said is in conflict with what the Lord has
>>   revealed, we can set it aside. My words, and the teachings of any
>>   other member of the Church, high or low, if they do not square
>>   with the revelations, we need not accept them. (McConkie, "Are
>>   The General Authorities Human?, 1966, p. 4).
>
>Tony, Mormon's do not belive their leaders are infallible. You
>seem to think they are, or that they should be.  Sorry, but you
>seem to be ramming your opinions down our throats.

I have an idea, I'll send a letter to the President and see what he has
to say.  I think his response should be very interesting.

>[Tony offering a quote]
>>>>     "Often when a doctrinal question came before the First
>>>>      Presidency and the Twelve, Elder McConkie was asked to
>>>>      quote the scripture or to comment on the matter.  He
>>>>      could quote scripture verbatim and at great length.  He
>>>>      provided the entire Church with an example of gospel
>>>>      scholarship.  He could teach the gospel with ease because
>>>>      he first understood the gospel."
>>>>
>
>[Gordon responding]
>>> What was this, a blurb for the dust jacket of BRM's book?
> 
>> Well, you cut off the reference, but it came from the Ensign,
>> June 1985, page 16 (I believe, that is from memory).  But I know
>> it was from the Ensign, in the First Presidecy Section, by the
>> Prophet, in which most Mormons I know refer to as Scripture.
>
>Tony, not everything published in the Ensign is considered
>Scripture.  In fact I'd dare say that only the General Conference
>editions (May and November) would be considered that.  In
>addition, even those editions are not considered canon, but more
>as a study guide until the next (conference) edition comes out.

I wasn't saying that it was scripture.  I was saying that most mormons
consider it scripture and since the source is offical it is most probality
correct.

>Again, I think that this quote only shows that McConkie was well
>versed in the scriptures.  I've even heard rumors that at one
>time he had the LDS canon committed to memory.  Wouldn't you want
>to consult with or consider the opinions of someone like that?

Not if he was wrong!!!
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------
>Jason Hunsaker  -|-  Logan, Utah  -|-  Internet: slhw4@cc.usu.edu