From: Albert-Lunde@nwu.edu (Albert Lunde)
Subject: Re: Seperatists etc.
Followup-To: soc.bi
Summary: more thoughts about feminism and me
Originator: lunde@casbah.acns.nwu.edu
Reply-To: Albert-Lunde@nwu.edu (Albert Lunde)
Organization: Ministry of Silly Walks
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 02:54:52 GMT

In article <1992Dec18.140521.27525@dsg.cs.tcd.ie> 
 cjmchale@dsg.cs.tcd.ie (Ciaran McHale) writes:
>In <1992Dec16.031456.10153@news.acns.nwu.edu>
>Albert-Lunde@nwu.edu (Albert Lunde) writes:
>>On one hand I think using the term "seperatist" was unjustified
>>in the first place.
>
>I was a bit surprised to find that "separatist" was being used (or
>being interpreted as being used) as an insult (at least at one point in
>this thread). Even the title of the thread (I've changed the Subject:
>line) "Attack of the Separatists" is far from neutral.[...]

Well, yea. I was responding to the tone of the article, and
at the same time making what seemed like a factual distinction
that the women posting here did not sound or act like
seperatists (IMHO).

I have some feeling of affinity to lesbian-feminist seperatists.
At the same time, I can't be one and I realized some years ago that, as a 
man, there was nothing I could do to satisfy the most extreme positions.

I still aim to respect women-only space and get some ideological and
cultural influences from them and the rest of lesbian-feminism.

Part of my personal development has been trying to use my own judgement
to take feminist ideas and see where I fit in the picture. This
may involve agreeing with or disagreeing with feminist "conventional
wisdom" (if I may call it that), but I respect this body of ideas
and take them seriously.

(I'm not planning to give up my Mary Daly books or Alex Dobkin records.)

[...]
>Also that much of the material written about feminism is aimed at a
>female audience, so it can be difficult for a male (who is outside the
>intended audience) to read and understand it. Thankfully, over the last
>few years I have been able to find a few, though sadly only a few,
>books on feminism/sexism which were accessible enough for me to read.

I've read a fair number of difficult books (though not so
many recently). Reading books written for a female audience is something 
I can adjust to.

>>The implicit suggestion that men are congenitally clueless
>>annoys me, though I recognize it is grounded in anger about
>>substantial issues, and I try not to take it very personally.
>
>Presumably you read the "You men just don't get it" comment as meaning
>"You men are stupid." I agree that often men don't "get it", but I
>don't think it has anything to do with stupidity and I didn't read the
>comment as an insult.

I may have been over-reacting or bringing in my own ideas.

>I think that there are some things which are extrememly difficult to
>understand unless one has experienced them personally. A lot of the
>things which "men don't get" are things which men usually haven't
>experienced (or have only experienced very briefly) and _that_ is why
>many men find it difficult to comprehend. 

I follow this train of logic -- I talked about this in another
post or two.  I guess I react to the idea that men are
essentially and absolutely unable to understand. (Which was
surely not stated directly by the posters.) I would rather
assume that men may be extremely messed up but are not
beyond changing.) I may well be getting far afield from what
was going on directly between Roy, Iseult and others.

I may have some ego tied up in thinking of myself as a feminist,
at least to the extent that it would bother me that if I
was seen as not denouncing Roy loudly enough I would be
seen as anti-feminist. In my early posts I tried to offer Roy
commentary and judgement, while assuming some honesty and
sincerity on Roy's part (and tryed to not go too far in interpreting
BSDM elements with which I am less familiar.)

If I'd wanted to, I think I could have come up with an ideological
analysis like Vikki's.  I think I understood what she was saying
and agreed with some of it. At the same time I wasn't sure if
it was appropriate to the situation.

This is not (*Thank Goddess and/or Muffy*) alt.feminism, and
I hope we are not so far apart we can't hear each other.

I feel emotionally unwilling to take sides.  At the same time
my intellect, and explaining my self leads me to write long digessions
like this. I hope others will not take them in a hostile spirit.

>[...] One great way, for me at least, to help understand things
>which one has not experienced is to read books of personal accounts
>written by those who have experienced them. 

I agree, and it is a less intrustive means of education than a
lot of the alternatives.

-- 
 Albert Lunde         | Interfaith  |     *Y*Y*      "A branch on the
 Albert-Lunde@nwu.edu |  Bisexual   |      *Y*        tree of life"
                      |  Feminist   |.......|.........................
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