From: robm@bcrka391.bnr.ca (Rob Mclellan 1342743)
Subject: Re: JUST WONDERING . . .
Reply-To: robm@bcrka391.bnr.ca (Rob Mclellan 1342743)
Organization: Bell-Northern Research, Ottawa, Canada
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1992 22:06:56 GMT

Stanislav -- Back off!

First, a couple of general comments. Take a look at my other posting (in
reply to Andrej's SERIOUS POST). I understand that you're tired of what
you consider to be "academic/judgemental" postings by non-ex-Yu (the
terminilogy is starting to get a little awkward :-) ). I don't blame
you. HOWEVER, that was not my intent (nor I think, some of the other
points raised about the level of dialogue on the net). 
 
"Juvenile" is a bit sweeping, and perhaps you're unclear as to what I
consider to be juvenile. Some of the endless profane, personal attacks
(including the finger), comments on your heritage and that of the rock
you come from, etc. that serve only to insult the originator and don't
do anything to discuss the issue in any sort of sane fashion ("you're
wrong because you're a [take your pick/Serbian/Slovenian/Croatian/.../]
asshole") are the sorts of things I think we're talking about. If I want
this sort of shit I'll take a walk to ANY school yard in ANY country in
the world and I know I'll find it -- you don't have to be ex-Yu for
that! Yeah, people get pissed off about things and resort to that
periodically (myself included) but a little self-discipline wouldn't
hurt. Besides, none of us get anything out of the dialogue (except
perhaps an appreciation for the fine art of flaming -- so read alt.flame).

The sorts of issues being addressed here are part of the human
condition; last time I checked I was human so perhaps I might have some
insight and feelings as well. And a point of order -- this isn't your
usenet, it's OUR usenet, which means a little bit of community behaviour
would be nice, instead of the puerile flaming that seems to be so much a
part of sitting at the anonymous end of an internet pipe; ie. cut the
"butt out" crap.

In article <SCM.92Apr14164819@hector.cs.brown.edu>, scm@cs.brown.edu
(Stanislav Markovic) writes:
> In article <1992Apr14.153818.6955@bcrka451.bnr.ca>
robm@bcrka391.bnr.ca (Rob Mclellan 1342743) writes:
> 
> What nauseates me beyond belief, though, is when a non-Yugoslav
> describes the postings on this group as "juvenile".
> WhatonEarthgivesyoutherighttodothat? I can just picture you...

From what you've written, I don't think you can. And I don't have to
prove my legitimacy to you or anyone. Fact is, I've got an old Bosnian
friend who lost almost all of his brothers and sisters to the Ustashe in
WWII -- funny thing is, I don't hear him do any of the kind of vitriolic
flaming and bitterness that I see here, and frankly I can't understand
why because I would be bitter as hell. One thing he does say is that the
whole ex-country is, as far as he is concerned, a miserable place full
of miserable ugly people who refuse to let go of the endless blood-feud
that you allude to in your following comments -- (on reflection, that
DOES sound kind of bitter, doesn't it ;-) ). Actually, what he refers to
is all of the fighting that is currently going on, not the actual
people. Oh yeah, someone very close to me is the product of an
Orthodox/Islam/Montenegrin union with some singularly unhappy childhood
experiences that have been shared with me, so maybe I have a little more
understanding than perhaps you know (but so what? Is this supposed to be
a "big dick" contest to see who can quote more misery?).

IMHO, one problem is the "ready fire aim" syndrome that seems endemic to
the whole thing -- in the discussions here it seems people sometimes
forget to "look in the sights" for friend, neutral, or foe (for example,
isn't there a difference between being an ethnic Serb and a "political"
Serb?). If this sounds patronizing I'm sorry, it's not meant this way.
The wish for some constructive dialogue is probably all hopelessly naive
anyway :-(.  

> With all love/hate that exists between Yu nations, we could still have
> escaped the war, were it not for the Western countries (and especially
> the US) that literally pushed us into it. So please don't tell us what
> we are and are not, because we've had it _up_to_here_. At least I
> have, though it seems that some of the scy regulars want more. Well
> email them. Email them how terrible scy is, how juvenile we are, how
> we fight and argue and flame each other over the net, how we discuss
> some irrelevant issues like who is right and who is wrong, how people
> bring up history issues from thirteen centuries ago, and above all how
> we discuss the eternal Yu debate
> _You_killed_us_more_than_we_killed_you_in_the_past_. Email them, but
> have the *common decency* of not posting it in scy, because it is
> improper, untrue and, above all, unjust.

Right, I think I understand -- "butt out" (I think I addressed that
above). But look, nobody is calling the issues, the passions, the
concerns "childish", just some of the ways in which it's been recently
expressed. Nobody has a licence on unhappiness and misery, not even ex-Yu.
 
> 
> Not that it is not possible for you to really understand the issues,
> if you really want to. In fact, the best book that I have read about
> Yugoslavia and its nations is written by an English lady. Rebecca
> West: "Black lamb and grey falcon". Read that book. Read it many
> times. Read it until you stop thinking about it, and begin to feel.
> Everything you will ever need to know about Yugoslavia, is in that
> book.

Thanks for the advice, I've seen it and I'll get it and read it. 

> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Stanislav

One final note, and then maybe we can end this meta-discussion about our
discussion. I was heartened to see a SERIOUS note from Andrej, and some
of the commentary on the tragic situation in B-H; maybe a little of the
recent feedback about discussion levels has had an effect?  To fellow
netters: sorry but I seem to have been a bit hypocritical and crossed
over into flame mode myself. 'Nuff said.

So, if I granted you powers of the Almighty (insert _name_ depending on
where you're from ;-) ) for a day and said " fix  ex-Yu up into a stable
state and establish some lasting peace and harmony" what would you do?
Form a bunch of new countries? Drop the army into the Adriatic? I'm
interested in some serious answers on this -- what do you think is a
formula for solving the puzzle?

Regards,

Rob McLellan

BNR, Ottawa Ontario Canada
e-mail: robm@bnr.ca