HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: Jym Dyer <jym@mica.berkeley.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.native,alt.config
Subject: Re: Call for Discussion on "alt.native" split
Date: 15 Sep 1992 06:15:18 GMT
Organization: The Naughty Peahen Party Line
Distribution: na
	<1992Sep10.222852.28633@ms.uky.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: remarque.berkeley.edu
In-reply-to: kherron@ms.uky.edu's message of 11 Sep 92 02:28:52 GMT
Originator: jym@remarque.berkeley.edu

> According to our logs, alt.native was created 22 months ago
> and has received 1567 articles since then.  That's a little
> over two articles per day.

=o= You're missing something:  These newsgroups will become
gatewayed with existing mailing lists, which will mean an
increase in volume.  I've been on NATIVE-L, and it doesn't
lack for volume.

>> NATCHAT    alt.native.chat   discussion and debate

=o= Hmm.  Some conferencing systems use "chat" to mean all
discussion and debate.  My take is that Usenet uses "chat"
to mean less contentious discussion, and a ".d" suffix (as
in "alt.native.d") to handle discussion and debate.
    <_Jym_>
From: pattisan@midiline.la.ca.us (Patti Hayes)
Newsgroups: alt.native
Subject: Re: new tribe policy
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 92 18:37:48 PDT
Organization: MIDILine BBS - Altadena, CA - (818) 797-3285

  How can any gov't be allowed to say that people don't exist?
Isn't that the province of the Great Spirit? 
  Who is this administration or anyone else to say that a people
don't exist...are they not standing before you?????
  Another way to screwed indigenous peoples....
  DO THE COUNTRY A FAVOR ......SLAP A CONGRESSPERSON..TODAY!!!!!




Newsgroups: alt.native
From: beaver.cs.washington.edu!gnosys!anchor.esd.sgi.com!lyn (Lyn Dearborn)
Subject: Re: German Physics
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 23:52:32 GMT

Original-Sender: anchor.esd.sgi.com!lyn (Lyn Dearborn)

Jay has interjected after Peshe's carefully thought out response to yet
another of Alan's mailings:

"[Both Alan and Peshe seem to have clearly stated their ideas, further
discussion should expand on them, and not merely restate them.  In
particular, while Peshe's views on the value of Western science seem to
make use of guilt by association with the Nazis; I would prefer that
those views not become the center of a NatChat flamewar.  If such
discussion is inevitable, please take it to email.--jay]

hmmmmm I'd hate to see all value lost by perhaps carelesly connecting
Peshe's views being summed up as "guilt by association with the Nazis" .....
We would all prefer that these views not become the center of a NatChat flamewarbut I don't think this "helped" the situation at all.  Just refer
the whole stupid topic to private mailings.... sweet, simple, etc., unless
there is new, non-accusing information to be shared ... without labeling
Nazi association, PLEASE.


 ^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^
       +++ Walk Gently in Peace on Our Mother the Earth +++

     Lyn Dearborn                  dearborn@anchor.esd.sgi.com
 ^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^





Newsgroups: alt.native,alt.config
From: gst@spdcc.com (Gary S. Trujillo)
Subject: Re: Call for Discussion on "alt.native" split
Reply-To: gst@gnosys.svle.ma.us (Gary S. Trujillo)
Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1992 03:38:44 GMT

In article <1992Sep12.222635.3218@ms.uky.edu> kherron@ms.uky.edu
	(Kenneth Herron) writes:

> Look at this from another angle:  Have you considered how darned
> inconvenient for an interested person to follow five different
> groups, all carrying basically the same topic?

The topic is only the same if you're looking at the situation from the
outside.  The difference between the NATIVE-L and NATCHAT mailing lists
is the same in nature between what is found in comp.sources.unix versus
comp.sources.d - the first is for information, and the second is for
discussion.  When those two mailing lists were joined, there were con-
stant complaints.  Many people are interested in the "hard facts" kinds
of things (as well as urgent action bulletins, questions & answers, etc.)
who are not interested in discussion.

> Let me suggest that the moderators of the respective mailing lists
> get together and develop a tagging convention (similar to that used
> in rec.arts.tv.soaps) for subject lines and message ID's.  This
> isn't a perfect solution but it could go a long way toward solving
> the problem of gatewaying several lists into one group.

It could not possibly address the problem.  If you look carefully at
what I said in my last posting, you'll realize that there is an auto-
matic routing between alt.native and NATCHAT.  There is software on
a gateway host that picks up postings to alt.native and routes them
to the moderator based on the fact that they were posted to alt.native.
You can't expect the software to rely on a keyword in the subject line
to do the routing - at least I'm not willing to do so, since people
who post to Usenet newsgroups can't and won't follow such conventions.

I believe that having several newsgroups is the only way such a thing
is possible, and it's a requirement for my being willing to establish
a gateway for the mailing lists.

Gary
-- 
    Gary S. Trujillo                             gst@gnosys.svle.ma.us
Somerville, Massachusetts               {wjh12,bu.edu,spdcc,ima,cdp}!gnosys!gst
Newsgroups: alt.native
From: beaver.cs.washington.edu!gnosys!cs.utexas.edu!souther (Art Souther)
Subject: Re:  Darwinism, social and otherwise
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1992 02:18:12 GMT

Original-Sender: cs.utexas.edu!souther (Art Souther)

In reply to Lyn's rambling excursion into Martha's query about native views:

Thanks for the wonderful stream of consciousness exposition, and
thanks for championing simplicity in ideas.  Those who prefer the more
intellectual style must accept that their voice will not reach many on
the net.

Art


Newsgroups: alt.native
From: gst@spdcc.com (Gary S. Trujillo)
Subject: Re: Call for Discussion on "alt.native" split
Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1992 04:11:49 GMT

In article <1992Sep15.173540.29482@midway.uchicago.edu>
	elle@midway.uchicago.edu writes:

> Actually, Usenet doesn't use "chat" at all...
>
> There _was_ an ill-thought-out newgroup for an "alt.romance.chat", but
> neither I nor many other news admins carry it; news software wasn't
> designed for real-time conversation.

Right.  The word "chat" has come to have the connotation of a real-time
interaction, like the "irc" software provides.  Well, in effect, I have
withdrawn my original proposal in favor of just creating "alt.native.d"
just to be able to separate things along the lines of the split between
the "NATIVE-L" and "NATCHAT" mailing lists, which I would propose to
couple with alt.native and alt.native.d, respectively.

The other possibility, which is even more attractive to me personally,
is to attempt to get a new moderated newsgroup created which would carry
NATIVE-L articles, and we could just leave alt.native and NATCHAT linked.

Maybe we could have some informal discussion of that idea, to see whether
a formal "Call for Discussion" on such a motion might be in order.  Now
that everyone has seen some indication of the kinds of things that appear
on NATIVE-L (with the exceptions of articles pertaining to the aboriginal
peoples of Australia, which I neglected to include through an oversight,
despite the fact of having quite a collection), maybe we have a beter
basis for talking about the idea than we did a few days ago.

Comments?

Thanks.

Gary
-- 
    Gary S. Trujillo                             gst@gnosys.svle.ma.us
Somerville, Massachusetts               {wjh12,bu.edu,spdcc,ima,cdp}!gnosys!gst
Xref: sparky alt.native:982 alt.config:5730
From: kherron@ms.uky.edu (Kenneth Herron)
Newsgroups: alt.native,alt.config
Subject: Re: Call for Discussion on "alt.native" split
Date: 13 Sep 92 02:26:35 GMT
    <1992Sep10.222852.28633@ms.uky.edu> <1992Sep11.184027.29027@spdcc.com>
Distribution: na
Organization: University Of Kentucky, Dept. of Math Sciences

gst@spdcc.com (Gary S. Trujillo) writes:
>In article <1992Sep10.222852.28633@ms.uky.edu> kherron@ms.uky.edu
>	(Kenneth Herron) writes:

>> According to our logs, alt.native was created 22 months ago and
>> has received 1567 articles since then.  That's a little over two
>> articles per day.

>I suggest the comparison of this average with the volume over the past
>couple of months, following the linkage between alt.native and the
>NATCHAT mailing list.  This measurement would give an indication of a
>dramatic increase in volume as a result of the linkage.

Well, all right.  We currently have 32 articles in alt.native, spanning
eight days.  That's four articles per day, still a pretty trivial
volume.  And if you subtract the seven articles discussing the split
proposal, it drops to *three* articles per day.

Look at this from another angle:  Have you considered how darned
inconvenient for an interested person to follow five different
groups, all carrying basically the same topic?

Let me suggest that the moderators of the respective mailing lists
get together and develop a tagging convention (similar to that used
in rec.arts.tv.soaps) for subject lines and message ID's.  This
isn't a perfect solution but it could go a long way toward solving
the problem of gatewaying several lists into one group.
-- 
Kenneth Herron                                           kherron@ms.uky.edu
University of Kentucky                                      +1 606 257 2975
Department of Mathematics           "Thanks to the magic of the slow-motion 
camera, we can now show you how ugly the inside of someone's mouth can be."
Newsgroups: alt.native
From: Pam Holmes <beaver.cs.washington.edu!gnosys!UAFSYSA.UARK.EDU!PELLIOTT>
Subject: Common ground
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 15:36:22 GMT

Original-Sender: Pam Holmes <UAFSYSA.UARK.EDU!PELLIOTT>

Thanks, Art Souther and Marianne Dugan, for suggesting that there
are numerous folks out here on the Net who might be more interested
in focusing on how we might stand on common ground than in
intellectual debate. For me, these serialized "discussions" have
not been useful or constructive. There is too much suffering (spiritual,
as well as physical and emotional) to spend energy and resources
playing word games. Sooner or later we are going to have to let go
of whatever keeps us from moving forward or we'll always be where we
are now...

Pam Holmes
pelliott@uafsysa.uark.edu
From: ai065@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Thomas Hill)
Newsgroups: alt.native
Subject: NOTICE:"Bigfoot/Sasquatch" Sightings Request
Date: 14 Sep 92 02:40:37 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: slc10.ins.cwru.edu


   Our research group is currently investigating reports and sightings of the
animal known as "Bigfoot" or "Sasquatch". If you or somebody you know has had
such a sighting, or come across what may be evidence supporting the existance
of such an animal, please get in contact with us in one of the following
formats:
 
o Leave a private message in electronic mail.
o Call Thomas Hill at 216-362-6529.
o Or write:
 
  Thomas E. Hill
  16124 Richard Dr.
  Brook Park, OH 44142
 
 Contact with us can be totally anonymous if you wish. We are especially
interested in Ohio sightings but are by no means limited to investigations in
that state. Please, serious responses only.
-- 
"A large creature about 7 1/2 to 8 foot tall. It was greyish black in color,
and as it went away from me I seen the backside of it walking as a man would
walk on it's hind legs."- Former Sheriff Oliver Potter, Vancouver, Washington
The Cryptozoology Information Network. Want on our Email mailing list? Amiga!
Xref: sparky alt.native:973 alt.config:5695
From: sloane@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu (Bob Sloane)
Newsgroups: alt.native,alt.config
Subject: Re: Call for Discussion on "alt.native" split
Date: 11 Sep 92 15:20:38 CDT
Organization: University of Kansas Academic Computing Services

In article <1992Sep11.184027.29027@spdcc.com>,
 gst@spdcc.com (Gary S. Trujillo) writes:
> I suggest the comparison of this average with the volume over the past
> couple of months, following the linkage between alt.native and the
> NATCHAT mailing list.  This measurement would give an indication of a
> dramatic increase in volume as a result of the linkage.

We have received 77 articles in the last 20 days in alt.native.
Hardly a dramatic increase in volume.
-- 
USmail: Bob Sloane, University of Kansas Computer Center, Lawrence, KS, 66045
E-mail: sloane@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu, sloane@ukanvax.bitnet, AT&T: (913)864-0444 
Newsgroups: alt.native
From: beaver.cs.washington.edu!gnosys!manana.enet.dec.com!"manana: :mrgate::add::xanadu::am::gentile"
Subject: Re: Indian & European Spirituality
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 14:10:11 GMT

Original-Sender: gentile@AM@XANADU@ADD

From:	NAME: Sam Gentile
	TEL: DTN 381-0737
	ADDR: ZK03-2/X37 <gentile@AM@XANADU@ADD>

>I don't think I can be classified as a traditional native american
spiritualist,
>nor do I have much hope of "finding" one, but were one asked to respond to
this
>latest article and several others, I don't think they would be able to.  Maybe
>my 20 yrs of classes in the hallowed halls have left me well educated but
>illiterate, because I find myself unable to understand 75% of some of the
>messages ....and here I am admitting I don't understand what is meant bY
> putting it more in the mystical tradition of something like Christian
> Gnosticism.

I don't understand any of these messages and have got to the point where I am
just deleting them without even reading them. In my humble opinion, with the
little that I have studied with elders, what is being expressed here has got
very little to do with Native spirituality as I am learning about it. I am
being taught that the truths are simple, so simple that many miss them. The
truths can be found in nature, not in big books, and compilcated language.
Indeed, one of my lessons taught me that if you leave a bible out on a tree
stump and the elements work on it, you have nothing left. The truths are out
there  to observe in nature. I really thoght that this list was about native
peoples discussing things and not PHD college people thinking they know
everything. This is just my opnion and I don't mean to offend anyone but I have
not been getting anything out of the discussions for quite some time and
evidentally others are starting to feel that way. I am trying to get away from
the limitations of the anaylitical mind not go towards it.

Aho Mitakuye Oyasin
Sam

Xref: sparky alt.native:996 alt.config:5770
From: gst@gnosys.svle.ma.us (Gary S. Trujillo)
Newsgroups: alt.native,alt.config
Subject: Re: Call for Discussion on "alt.native" split
Date: 15 Sep 92 00:14:16 GMT

In article <1992Sep14.162903.8441@dartvax.dartmouth.edu>
	hades@coos.dartmouth.edu (Hades) writes:

>     Well, it's been a while (9 months) but I see that this discussion
> has finally come back...

I see this discussion as a new one.  I am aware of the attempt to create
a soc.culture.native.american newsgroup a while back.  I attempted to help
that vote succeed, and it almost did.  This is a *new* proposal, and it's
my own proposal.  I could try to point out how it differs from the other
one, but I'd rather talk about this one.

My proposal is to create a mainstream newsgroup, probably to be called
simply "soc.native" - I tend to think that the "soc.culture." hierarchy
is not appropriate, since one primary purpose of the list is to handle
information whose nature is activist in nature, but I'm open to discus-
sion on this point.  I'd like to think about the idea of creating sub-
groupings as well.

>     While there will be a number of people from alt.native that would
> like to see a name like soc.native, this name just won't pass in an
> official CFV...

We shall see.  I'll be posting more details concerning the proposal soon.
The main idea behind this proposal is to provide a conduit for information
and discussion which have been handled for the past three years by means
of a very successful set of mailing lists.  The original purpose of the
mailing lists was and is to stimulate a consciousness of the threats
facing indigenous peoples on a worldwide scale as their lands and ways of
life are threatened, not merely to discuss the lives and culture of one
particular group or set of groups of indigenous people in one part of the
world.

>     I think that we need to talk about the merit of these groups in
> alt.native...

I'm agreeable to starting with one newsgroup if we do it as a mainstream
group, and then create a further subdivision later when we have the traffic
and the support for the idea.

> ...there is no real evidence of traffic in alt.native that isn't about
> American Indians.

I don't dispute this statement.  However, please note that there *is* a
goodly amount of such traffic in the NATIVE-L mailing list.  If this
list is linked with the new newsgroup, as I plan for it to be, we'll see
the non-American Indian traffic pick up.  Just as some indication of this
fact, I'll pass on a number of recent articles from NATIVE-L to alt.native,
to give people an idea of what they're now missing.  I'll stick a "[NATIVE-L]"
tag in the subject line to clearly indicate the source of the articles.

Someone has come forward who has volunteered to help conduct the discussion
and voting for the soc.native newsgroup.  We will be posting further details
soon.

Gary
--
    Gary S. Trujillo                            gst@gnosys.svle.ma.us
Somerville, Massachusetts              {wjh12,bu.edu,spdcc,ima,cdp}!gnosys!gst
Newsgroups: alt.native
From: Alan McGowen <beaver.cs.washington.edu!gnosys!hpindbu.cup.hp.com!alanm>
Subject: Re: Environment and native issues
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 19:16:03 GMT

Original-Sender: Alan McGowen <hpindbu.cup.hp.com!alanm>

> > If all that you care about is undermining and weakening the US govt by
> > attacking the public sector in all its forms, no matter what might replace
> > it, then by all means side with that crowd as Peshe does. But be aware that
> > you are doing so, that you are being used for their purposes.
>
> This does seem to be an argument for advancing the power of the European
> governments, which have historically neither met their treaty obligations
> nor served Indian people, but rather expanded themselves at our expense. Can
> anyone seriously disagree with this fundamental reality? If so, I would
> seriously question whether that person has Indian interests at heart. How
> can the further encroachment of eurogovernmental bureaucracy over our affairs
> possibly benefit us? This is why genuine self-government and sovereignty
> issues for Indian nations are of such critical importance right now -
> to begin to reestablish control of our own destinies by establishing
> responsibility and sovereignty for our own communities, rather than
> see ourselves continually diminished.

I do not advocate "advancing the power of the European govts" over Indians.
Though my own long-range political ideals are not really relevant here,
suffice it to say for the record that I hope that there will eventually be
more, not fewer, states in the Americas, preferably delimited bioregionally,
all independent but participating in a global pact for the mutual security
of all Earth's life, human and nonhuman. I would not be in the least disturbed
at the idea that many - even most, though it is probably unlikely -- of those
states might be "Indian" states in some sense. My objection is not to all
division of extant power blocs, it is to such division done without any
thought as to the mutual security arrangements which might follows.

To put it very simply, 9000 Yanomamis flush with sovereignty are not going
to be able to protect themeselves or their ecosystem against a rising
population of miners and against increasing value of their timber to
multinational logging companies. A more global view of the ecosystem
protection is needed even at the same time sovereignty is recognized. This
can only eventually come about if discussions about it begin now, which
is why I am raising these issues.

However, what I find is that such discussions are blocked by the usual
anthropocentric politics which thinks about "rights" without any
comprehension of the biological reality behind rights, as if, say, Yanomami
soveriegn land were just to be a line on some map, and a little flag on the
table at the UN General Assembly, and not a living ecosystem which persists
far into the future as the Yanomami home. It is the later soveriegnty which
really matters, not the former.

------------
Alan McGowen
From: gst@gnosys.svle.ma.us (Gary S. Trujillo)
Newsgroups: alt.native
Subject: posting NATIVE-L articles to alt.native
Date: 15 Sep 92 00:47:42 GMT
Expires: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 00:00:00 GMT

In an attempt to demonstrate the kind of material carried by the NATIVE-L
mailing list, to help determine whether it would be appropriate to create
a new "alt.native.d" newsgroup to carry the discussion-oriented articles,
as well as to help us decide whether we want to attempt to create a new
"soc.native" mainstream newsgroup, I plan to forward to alt.native a number
of selected articles from NATIVE-L which have been carried during the past
six weeks or so.

I would ask readers to note that these articles deal not only with subjects
pertaining to the Native people of what is now the United States and Canada,
but with indigenous peoples of the world.  Therefore, I am not proposing
that the new newsgroup be for the purpose of carrying information and dis-
cussion only about American Indians, as has recently been suggested.

Each article will bear the tag "N-L:" in its subject line to indicate that
it originated from the NATIVE-L list.

I would ask that readers post followup articles to this one or to one of
the articles proposing the new newsgroup(s) to indicate their feelings.
I would also welcome any messages sent to me personally on this subject,
and will repost a digest of these comments with identifying information
removed, so that anyone who wishes to can make his or her feelings known
anonymously.

Please indicate how you feel about the "alt.native.d" idea versus that of
creating a new "soc.native" newsgroup (including how you feel about that
name).  If you like the idea of a mainstream newsgroup, please indicate
whether you feel it should be moderated.  (The NATIVE-L list is, and will
continue to be moderated, but it is possible for the moderator of that
list to pass on only certain articles from Usenet, rather than moderating
both forums.)

Thanks in advance for your help.

Gary (NativeNet facilitator)
--
    Gary S. Trujillo                            gst@gnosys.svle.ma.us
Somerville, Massachusetts              {wjh12,bu.edu,spdcc,ima,cdp}!gnosys!gst
Newsgroups: alt.native
From: Shirley.Roy@mailbox.bison.mb.ca (Shirley Roy)
Newsgroups: alt.native
Subject: P.la.p
Date: 04 Sep 92  18:36:00 CST

please explain what's going on at portage la prairie's airbase 
i people there sometimes are so thick headed!!

 * Origin: M.W.C.S BBS - Now 1.8 GIG (204) 943-5407/8/9 (1:348/206.0)
Newsgroups: alt.native,alt.config
From: mdw@theory.TC.Cornell.EDU (Matt Welsh)
Subject: Re: If  sex were my middle name....
Organization: Cornell Theory Center
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 02:30:52 GMT

In article <1992Sep14.020334.16155@cs.rose-hulman.edu> Todd Trimble writes:
>Distribution: world
>
>If sex were my middle name, wouldn't fish drown?

Hot damn: here we are, all eight of us, thinking about everything that
happened last night. And now some guy comes along and throws a copy of
Dewdney's "Planiverse" in my lap. What could be better?

mdw

-- 
Matt Welsh    mdw@tc.cornell.edu        +1 607 253 2737
Random Hacker, Cornell Engineering and Theory Center 
  "I'll eat anything that's BRIGHT BLUE!!"
Newsgroups: alt.non.sequitur,alt.sex,talk.bizarre,rec.pets,alt.fan.warlord