From: kendall@adobe.com (Janice Kendall)
Newsgroups: alt.feminism,soc.women
Subject: Re: Male Men Bashers
Date: 25 Jan 93 00:32:27 GMT
Organization: Adobe Systems Incorporated

In article <1993Jan23.021251.7678@wam.umd.edu> rsrodger@wam.umd.edu (Yamanari) writes:
>In article <1993Jan17.014306.7372@adobe.com> kendall@adobe.com (Janice Kendall) writes:
>>In article <1993Jan15.182148.7154@wam.umd.edu> rsrodger@wam.umd.edu (Yamanari) writes:
>>>	Ahem.  Anyone who truly believes that women seek "nice, sensitive
>>>	guys" for their mates is seriously deluded.
>>
>>OK.  Let's define what "nice, sensitive guy" means...
>>
>>I am a woman and I wanted a "nice, sensitive guy".  I've dated self-centered
>>jerks and as I matured and came to care more about my own "quality of life"
>>(yep - it's, arghhh, SELF-ESTEEM!), I quit seeing the self-centered jerks
>>as better-than-me-and-therefore-desirable, and saw them as self-centered
>>jerks not worth wasting my time on.
>
>
>	How old were you?
>
>	This is precisely my point.  I accept that women change *after*
>	they age, but the fact is, young women actively seek out the
>	abusive, until they mature and get a little self respect 
>	(say, age 28 to 30, earlier for some, later or never for others).

 I don't prove your point.  I was 20 when I decided that I wanted to be
 happy, that I deserved to be happy, and that I was the only one who could
 create my happiness.


>	Men have a different fixation (for which we tend to take a lot
>	of heat).  What you fail to realize is that after spending all of
>	this time training us to be a certain way, you up and change the
>	requirements for what you're looking for.

 I don't think we change the requirements.  What I have posted before is that
 women tend to like men who have a personality and a sense of self, a sense
 of direction.  While we are busy being insecure young people (warning: 
 serious generalization!), the guys that portray these traits are often the 
 insecure ones that cover it up with bravado.  The ones that display their 
 insecurity through shyness - those "nice" guys - are not so attractive.

 Some day, you will quit blaming others for your lack of relationships, 
 develop your own identity, learn to like yourself, be comfortable with 
 yourself, look beyond a woman's physical aspects, get past caring what 
 image you'll project by being with a certain woman, become clear on what 
 it would be like to be with your ideal partner, and get on with your life.
 (No, I don't really know where you are in your life, I'm more trying to
  send a general message than to make broad assumptions about your life.)


>	And then have the gall to be angry that the only nice guys left
>	are those that were shy.

 Who's angry?

>
>	To me, it's a given.  I have tested it.  Act kind, understanding--
>	no chance.  

 Was your "act" simply a ploy to get sex?  Any woman who has her head on 
 straight would see right through you.


>                   Be self centered, aloof and somewhat cold?  They come
>	at you like flys to garbage.

 Just what kind of woman are you really trying to attract?


>>"senstive" means they constantly question decisions, "Are you sure you
>>want to do ______?"  Overly insecure men ARE NOT attractive to most women.
>
>
>	Are you sure this isn't because they're paranoid about false
>	rape charges?  Other things?  (For one, I've had, and my friends
>	have gone out with many a lousy date--never has it really gone
>	beyond the immediate in-group.  With women, on the other hand, 
>	I've seen guys crucified in "passing the news" conversations..) 

 You lost me here.  My fill-in-the-blank above had NOTHING to do with sex
 (is that all you're looking for?).  I was thinking more in terms of choosing
 everyday activities.

>>Yamanari, what qualities do you look for in a woman?  What is you concept
>>of the ideal relationship - for you?  How do you expect to be treated?
>>How do you expect to treat your partner?
>
>
>	This is not relavent to the issue, and belongs in email anyway.

 It IS relevant.  It helps to give context to the discussion.

 Janice Kendall    kendall@adobe.com    ...!{decwrl|sun}!adobe!kendall

		"Creativity overcomes violence."
				John Bradshaw on "Homecoming"
Newsgroups: alt.feminism