HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: btiffany@pbs.org
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Shunning and Psy-war
Date: 1 Sep 92 12:26:26 GMT
Organization: PBS:Public Broadcasting Service, Alexandria, VA

Robert A. Levene writes:

> Subject: Shunning and Psy-war
> Organization: Johns Hopkins University
> 
> Bruce Benning writes:
> 
>>  I guess you have never talked to any of those children of parents
>>  who disowned them because of their faith, so you are unable to
>>  have an objective opinion about this.
> 
> I've met people estranged from their parents because of
> their faith.  I have seen short-term disownment.

Like 20, 30 years?  Forever?  It happens.

>>RL> Psychological warfare is one more front on which enemies do battle.
>>
>>  So you do believe that the use of emotional/psychological warfare of
>>  this nature is proper for Jewish parents against their children. Is that
>>  what your comment means?
> 
> No, it means that I don't oppose the practice.

"I'm not pro-abortion, I'm pro-choice."

Right ....

>  If dropping propaganda
> leaflets on an enemy city would produce the same demoralizing effects
> as dropping firebombs, then I'd drop leaflets.  If disowning is
> a sufficient shock to bring back one's child, then I support it,
> i.e. the "Tough Love" approach.

What if disowning doesn't do the trick?  What's the next step?

> Again, this doesn't mean that I recommend it; it makes it
> easier for brainwashers to hot-box a victim and love-bomb him
> with "See how your family hates you?  We really love you" when
> the only real interest is chalking up another conversion.

I don't believe this "love-bombing" has *ever* happened among MJ's.  I don't
know anyone whose only interest is -- who even has any interest at all in --
"chalking up another conversion".

> Intentionally portraying parents as enemies is a rather standard
> technique.  I wonder if such people get their mandate from Luke 12:51-3 ?

Standard technique?

WHOSE technique?  Not among the talmidim of Yeshua!

Who told you this stuff, Rob?  Did you get this from some Jews for Judaism
"anti-missionary" propaganda course?  Is it not you who introduced the word
"enemies" in this context?

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

     /\			I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power
____/__\____		of God for salvation to every one who believes, to the
\  / || \  /		Jew first and also to the Greek.  For in it the
 \/--++--\/		righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith;
 /\  ||  /\		as it is written, "But the righteous man shall live
/  \ || /  \		by faith."
----\--/----						-- Romans 1:16-17
     \/			-- Bruce Tiffany
From: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (Robert A. Levene)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Words Like Arrows
Date: 3 Sep 1992 21:49:26 -0500
Organization: Johns Hopkins University
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu


> Hummm Robert, i dunno wot you mean by the above, but my hebrew name at my 
> bris is Tsvi, and Eli.  Since i am from a levitical home, i was given two 
> hebrew names at birth...
>
> Second, my family and i are orthodox Jews, so don't let the name Smith
> throw you.  My grandfather was Rabbi Moti Holtzman on my mothers side,
> and Meyer Smith on my fathers side...

Thanks for this information.

> I am Jewish because i am Jewish, has nothing to do with my belief system... 

But you don't practice Judaism, you practice Christianity.  Your
self-identification shouldn't cover up what you practice.

R

-- 
--
Robert A. Levene     Internet: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu
  "/  //  / /"         Bitnet:   RXL1@APLVM
From: rich.bellacera@amail.amdahl.com
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: My Heritage
Date: 3 Sep 92 00:04:14 GMT
Return-Path: <amail.amdahl.com!rich.bellacera@juts.ccc.amdahl.com>

Laura, Rob and others-

I tried to mail directly to some of you, but was unable to do so since my
letters bounced.

Thank you for your response.  It really was shocking for me to see so many
people reply to me (personally) and basically tell me the same thing.

Since I'm basically new to this Newsgroup I'm fairly uninformed about the
relevance of this issue to both my spiritual and physical life.  Because of
this I hope you do not mind my asking a few more questions.

The actual first response I got was from Mr Rob Levene who basically shared
with me that I could renounce my "christian" beliefs and start with
my rightful heritage of the Jewish faith at any moment.  This was the first
shocking thing I had ever heard of.  Not so much that I can be considered a
true Jew, but that I (or any Christian for that matter) would even conceive
of leaving the "grace" of our Lord Jesus (Yeshua) to once more be enslaved to
the bonds of the Law.  In my mind I said "Thanks, but no thanks." But as far
as his knowledge on what it means to be "Jewish" I cannot discount since I
have never known that life; having grown up with the identity of an
Italian-American.

O.K., so now what should I do with this new found inheritance?  I realize I
do not HAVE to do anything, but this is all so new and exciting.  I had never
imagined this part of me.

In all of my past understanding I always believed that EVEN in Jewish belief
it was the "father" or patriarchical parentage that determined your heritage,
but according to you and several others it is the "maternal (matriarchical?)
lineage that makes this distinction.  How is this so?

You said that "Bill would say you're acting goyisha"  What does that mean?  I
am assuming that it means "I'm acting like a Gentile>"  Is that correct?

It's weird for me 'cause I've always thought of myself as an Italian (despite
the Jewish and Spanish side).

WHat is this Halachal?  Is it a book?  What does it say specifically
concerning a displaced person such as me or my family?

Thank you for helping me to discover this side of me.

Still, I doubt my Italian Grandmother would be too excited that I am persuing
this side of my heritage.  Too bad I guess.

One final thing.  I remember a long time ago hearing about Jews that become
Christians using the name "Restored Jews" or something like that.  Is this
the same as "Messianic Jews?"

Thank you all for your insight.

-Rich
From: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (Robert A. Levene)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Personal Query: Jewish Heritage
Date: 3 Sep 1992 21:46:25 -0500
Organization: Johns Hopkins University
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

Bill Carlson writes:

> LJM> From an RJ point of view, you'd be halachically fully Jewish if you
> LJM> wouldn't believe in Yeshua. From MJ, you are a Jew. Bill might add here
> LJM> "acting  goyisha".  :-)
>      Well, actually, even halachic-ly they'd be considered fully
>      Jewish, -but they wouldn't be considered "good Jews" by some,
>      if they believed in Y'shua as Messiah.  Of course, we'd consider
>      them 'good-Jews', huh? :-)

But Bill ignores the implications of being a "tinok shenishba" - a
Jew who was raised outside the ways of Torah Judaism, and is not
familiar with Judaism.  He wouldn't know enough about
Judaism to be a "good Jew" but he wouldn't be a "bad Jew" either,
since he didn't actually reject true Judaism.

Such a person can become a "good Jew" simply by resolving to
start doing G-d's commandments, even if imperfectly at first.

R

Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: ljmorly@polaris.utu.fi (Laura Johanna Manninen)
Subject: Re: My Heritage
Organization: University of Turku
Date: 3 Sep 92 10:10:29

In article <m0mQ4g9-0000hzC@juts.ccc.amdahl.com> rich.bellacera@amail.amdahl.com writes:
> You said that "Bill would say you're acting goyisha"  What does that mean?  I
> am assuming that it means "I'm acting like a Gentile>"  Is that correct?

"Bill (Carlson) would say you are acting like a Gentile."

> WHat is this Halachal?  Is it a book?  What does it say specifically
> concerning a displaced person such as me or my family?

Halacha. It's a collection of laws. Ask someone else for a more accurate
definition.

> Thank you all for your insight.

You are welcome. 

> -Rich

- Laura
--
"But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans 
of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel,
whose origins are from ancient, from the days of eternity." - Micha 5:1

"Though the mountains be shaken and the hills be removed, yet my unfailing 
love for you will not be shaken nor my covenant of peace be removed,"
says the LORD, who has compassion on you.    - Yeshaya 54:10

met b'chet, CHAI B'Y'SHUA !
From: WJS112@psuvm.psu.edu
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Thoughts on clean/unclean/good/bad..
Date: 31 Aug 92 13:35:25 GMT
 <9208300505.AA17796@aplpy.jhuapl.edu>
Organization: Penn State University


   What I am about to ask really doesn't belong on this newsgroup, but I really
cant think of any other place i could write to and get the same response. I've
asked one or two questions last year on this board..and i enjoyed the responses
   My question, deals with lust, and gay people, and no i'm not gay. My theory
is that lust can take many forms, sometimes normal sometimes not, and i like
to group homosexuals, people who cheat on their wives, people who do strange
things to animals and dead people, etc...into one group, because i think this
feeling stems in all of these examples from one gut feeling. I wonder if it is
right to make such a statement.
   I have found myself wondering if i am a womanizer...something i used to
accuse my freind as being.  I think I could advance a lot quicker in my
developement if i could control the feeling of lust. I have a fairly good grip,
but i wonder if i'm actually getting anywhere.  If you have any responses, feel
free, but don't take your responses from a bible, give me an answer from what
you know and understand.
                         later
                              Smitty.
From: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (Robert A. Levene)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Identification with Abraham
Date: 3 Sep 1992 22:09:47 -0500
Organization: Johns Hopkins University
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

>>> who knows.  Unlike many of the Jews of Jesus' and Paul's day,
>>> no modern Jew I'm aware of can trace a direct, unbroken line
>>>  back to our father Abraham.

>> Quite a number can, particularly Jews from Arab countries.  
>
> Is there some documentary evidence to support this statement?

Working on it.

>> It's more than just oral tradition.  Every Levite, myself included,
>> has the name "the Levite" at the end of his Hebrew name, and every
>> Cohen, "the Cohen."  Is it unreasonable for something as basic as
>> this to be passed down?
>
> I don't mean to offend, but are you seriously suggesting that every
> "Levene" and "Cohen" is in fact descended from Levi or Aaron?

No, I'm suggesting that a many of those with the suffix "haLevi" or
"haKohen" in their Hebrew names are descended from Levi and Aaron.

A secular last name isn't enough.  I even know a Levite named "Cohen."


>  I'm not sure
> that this naming convention is so water tight so as to guarantee the
> factual nature of the lineage.  Isn't it quite possible that some Jews
> could have adopted the name "Cohen" because of the potential prestige
> associated with such a name?

Yes, I'm sure that some did and most didn't.

> ...  Moreover, during the course of those two
> thousand years folks have continued to convert to Judaism.

Much less common in Arab countries where conversion was a capital offense.

>  What it boils
> down to is that "Jewishness" is not really defined by race, but rather by
> adherence to a standard, a covenant.  There are undoubtly many folks today
> who identify themselves as Jews who have not one drop of Abraham's blood
> running through their veins.

I really don't understand this fixation with blood ties to Abraham.


>  Conversely, there are many folks who do have
> some of Abraham's blood in them who don't even know it.  Obviously, this is
> true for MJs as well as non-MJs.

ditto above


>  It should tell us something about the
> wisdom of using racial distinctives as a basis for religious epression
> within the new covenant. [...]

Race isn't relevant, parentage matters.  

R
From: hamilton@hydra.cs.gmr.com (William E. Hamilton CS50 CS/50)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: The Fathers
Date: 1 Sep 92 21:36:53 GMT
Reply-To: hamilton@gmr.com (William E. Hamilton CS50 CS/50)
Organization: GM Research Labs, Warren, MI

Donna.D'Iorio@f7022.n124.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Donna D'Iorio)
writes
>    In response to Tom Abrecht:
...

>TA>Are you suggesting Luther supported the theories of modern Messianic
>TA>Jews?  This is curious.  Some of your friends in this forum have
>TA>been telling us for some time that Luther was one of the most rabid
>TA>anti-Semites the world has ever seen.   Was this part of the "climb
>TA>toward light?"

>    Nope, that's not what I'm suggesting at all. Luther was indeed a
>rabid anti-semite.  ...
>    Nevertheless, where the deep stupor of spiritual darkness had
>hovered over the Church for 1,000 years, Luther did manage to break
>through the darkness with a major restoration of light.  While he
>continued to embrace the traditional errors of Augustine theology
>concerning Israel, he at least *did* perceive the scriptural truth
>regarding "justification by faith."  Luther demonstrated great courage
>in bringing that revelation forth, but the Reformation he kicked off in
>the church wasn't a total restoration--it was *only* a beginning.
...

>TA>Perhaps you can produce some history to support you theory.

>    That is exactly what I am doing and will continue to do, Tom.  Keep
>reading.  After all, whole books are devoted to the subject, so it is
>not likely that I will be able to lay out the full body of evidence in
>a couple of posts.
...

Donna,

Why don't you post a reading list. I admit  I don't know as much church history
as I should, and I would be willing to tackle at least some of the books you
consider most worthwhile.  If others will do the same, maybe this issue can be
discussed from a more informed viewpoint.

Bill Hamilton
GM Research and Environment Staff
From: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (Robert A. Levene)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Clean And Unclean Un / Maccoby book
Date: 26 Aug 92 16:40:26 GMT
Organization: Johns Hopkins University
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

Combining two topics:

1.  I'm not telling anyone to go out an buy a book.  You can borrow
    Hyam Maccoby's books from your local free public library or
    university library.

>    Tom's theology is not merely dangerous "IF", but it is one of the
> ancient theolgical errors which provided for a great deal of Christian
> anti-Semitism throughout the ages.

2.  I don't "support" Tom's theology, nor do I consider holding it
    to be A Good Thing.   But the charge "anti-Jewish" is not the
    same charge as "sincerely has a theology which the masses usually
    misinterpret as anti-Jewish."  I feel the same way about the 
    Neturei Qarta, whose sincerely-held beliefs concerning the
    State of Israel I consider incorrect and dangerous, but not
    malicious.

What I do support is the idea:

TA> But we call ourselves Christians so as not to be religiously confused
TA> with Jews who have rejected Messiah Jesus.  This is both biblically
TA> and practically correct.

It seems like "religious confusion" is the bread and butter of folks
like Harvey Smith who post statements such as "we believe that
Biblical Judaism is in fact New Covenant, which is called Christianity"


3.  See Hyam Maccoby's brand new book "Judas Iscariot and the Myth
    of Jewish Evil" for more about #2, and a pretty good comeback
    to those consider rejection of Jesus an evil act.


R

--
Robert A. Levene     Internet: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu
  "/  //  / /"         Bitnet:   RXL1@APLVM
From: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (Robert A. Levene)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Clean And Unclean Un / Maccoby Book
Date: 28 Aug 1992 16:22:45 -0500
Organization: Johns Hopkins University
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

In article <139985.2A9CF012@paranet.FIDONET.ORG>
Bill Carlson writes:

>...  But if there are several Rabbinic writers who agree that Messianic
>     1st Century Judaism was not out of harmony with Biblical Torah
>     Judaism, why do you have such a problem?!  Only a few such quotes:
>
> Intermountain Jewish News Pages
> 31-32  Sec.A August 12, 1988..."WE  WONDER  WHETHER  AMERICAN  ORTHODOX
> JEWISH  LEADERSHIP,  ONE OF  WHO'S SPOKESMEN  RABBI GREENBERG CLAIMS TO
> BE..." "LEADING ORTHODOX RABBI  IN THE  UNITED  STATES" says...[quoting
> from the article]...   "A  Jewish leader today, Rabbi Irving Greenberg,
> has written (in The Relationship of Judaism  and  Christianity: Towards
> a New Organic Model, " a 19 page  essay published in  Quarterly Review,
> then distributed by CLAL)):"   "...I  believe the early Christians were
> faithful Jews  when they recognized Jesus.   Like good,  faithful Jews,
> they were looking for the  Messiah, particulary in a different century.
> Lo and behold!  They recognized his arrival.   That  is a very faithful
> response of a Jew - to recognize that the Messiah  has arrived,  and to
> respond" (p.5; pagination of CLAL reprint)" ...& etc..., in same vein.

Rabbi Greenberg said much more than that.

 "... In my article, I offered Christians ... the chance to work Jesus
  up [to] the status of a failed messiah."

"I even realized the danger that my words could be pulled out of
 context.  I feared that unscrupulous missionary Christians -- who
 would stop at nothing to mislead unwary Jews -- might misuse them to
 claim that an Orthodox rabbi was affirming Christianity and
 supercessionism.  So I wrote a warning in the article against such
 misuse.  I warned that such abuse would prove that 'the sum of woe
 brought into the world by Christianity will go [on] and on.'"
        _Jewish Action_, Winter'90-1

The rest of the quotes (none from orthodox Jews, BTW) merely
establish that Jesus was Jewish, but say nothing of the
Pauline religion based upon Jesus being a God-man sent as 
a human sacrifice to atone for sins.  

R

-- 
--
Robert A. Levene     Internet: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu
  "/  //  / /"         Bitnet:   RXL1@APLVM
From: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (Robert A. Levene)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Clean And Unclean Un / Maccoby Book
Date: 3 Sep 1992 23:31:40 -0500
Organization: Johns Hopkins University
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

Y'know, it would simplify matters if you just came out and said
"According to Christianity, atonement requires blood sacrifice."  Then
I'd have no quarrel with you.  But if people try to tell me that
as a Jew, I need blood sacrifices, I can't let that error go unchallenged.


LJM writes:
>> The bloodless sin offerings were given together with the blood, thus
>> it was the blood in any case that made the atonement. Please give me
>> a quote from Tanach that says that there is atonement without a
>> sacrifice.

I gave an answer:

RAL> Atonement via bloodless sacrifice or no sacrifice at all?
RAL> 
RAL> Numbers 31:50 describes a bloodless offering.
RAL> I Kings 8:33-4 describes forgiveness of sin without any sacrifice.

And instead of commenting, Bill Carlson repeats the verse:

> > and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the
> > altar; IT IS THE BLOOD THAT MAKES ATONEMENT FOR ONE'S LIFE.

Well, what's Numbers 31:50, chopped liver?   It's right there in
black and white, atonement for their lives without blood.


> RAL> But it doesn't say it is *only* the blood.
>      LUCHOTH HABBERITH (242a):  He (the Messiah) will give
>      Himself and His life over unto death, and His blood will atone
>      for His people.

Moshiach ben Yosef, of course.  The death of every tzaddik
atones in the sense of the good which their legacy inspires.



>    SEBANIM (6a):  Surely atonement can only be made
>      with the blood, as it says, 'For it is the blood that maketh
>      atonement by reason of the life' -[Leviticus 17:11].  [See also
>      Yoma (5a); and Hebrews 9:22].   [Ex.24:8; Jer.31:31; Matt.20:28]

"Sebanim?"  Perhaps you're referring to tractate Zevachim, "Animal
Sacrifices."  Folio 6a discusses what makes an animal sacrifice
valid or invalid.  To sacrifice an animal, one slaughters it,
hence the blood. 

However, I don't see your point here, since (1) I cited examples of
atonement through means other than animal sacrifices, with which this
tractate is concerned (2) we may disagree on what Jesus was, but
surely he wasn't an animal to whom Zevachim would apply.



> Maybe that's why them Chassidic Jews wave those chickens over their
> heads and kill them before Yom Kippur, you figure? :-)

The same effect is achieved by waving charity in a sock over
one's head.

Rob

-- 
--
Robert A. Levene     Internet: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu
  "/  //  / /"         Bitnet:   RXL1@APLVM
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: ljmorly@polaris.utu.fi (Laura Johanna Manninen)
Subject: Re: (none) (Re: Clean And Unclean Under The New Cove)
Organization: University of Turku
Date: 27 Aug 92 12:40:05

In article <9208252130.AA19911@aplpy.jhuapl.edu> levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (Robert A. Levene) writes:
> Subject: Re: Clean And Unclean Under The New Cove
> Organization: Johns Hopkins University

> In article <LJMORLY.92Aug18222617@polaris.utu.fi> writes:

> (To Tom Albrecht)
> > Wrong. It's your turn to repent of calling MJ's like Mormons or JW's.
> > You are the one dealing dishonestly.

> What do Mormons or JW's have to do with anything?

They both hold Yeshua as the central figure in their religions, but
have attached stuff to their doctrines that is not biblical. (Someone 
else could maybe explain this more accurately, if necessary.)

> >  And I bet you enjoyed very much 
> > writing about that subject "Who killed Yeshua". (NO -- please -- don't
> > start again !) If that isn't anti-semitic behaviour, what is ? 

> Amazing how people can read minds from across the ocean.

I can't read minds, I just remember how long that thread was; it continued
even after I begged TA and Mark to stop it.

> > Levene-Albrecht -team stroke again. (:-)

> What we have is a three-way free-for-all, not "teams."

OK then. 

> Issues:
> a) Was Jesus the messiah?
> b) Should the "Messianic Jewish[sic]" movement call itself Jewish?
> c) Do present-day Jews have a right to Israel?

> Strange Bedfellows:
> For (a), it's I vs (Tom and the MJ's[sic])
> For (b), it's (Tom and I) vs the MJ's[sic]
> For (c), it's Tom vs (the MJ's [sic] and me)

Seems quite accurately put.

> R

- Laura
--
"But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans 
of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel,
whose origins are from ancient, from the days of eternity." - Micha 5:1

"Though the mountains be shaken and the hills be removed, yet my unfailing 
love for you will not be shaken nor my covenant of peace be removed,"
says the LORD, who has compassion on you.    - Yeshaya 54:10

met b'chet, CHAI B'Y'SHUA !