From: tas@pegasus.com (Len Howard)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Sexual Immorality
Date: 16 Aug 92 05:42:17 GMT
Organization: Pegasus,  Honolulu

In article <Aug.11.02.12.29.1992.12186@aramis.rutgers.edu> mueller@owlnet.rice.edu (Ernest Conrad Mueller) writes:
>>Okay, a question for all you Greek educated folks out there.  In the NIV,
>>a certain word is translated "sexual immorality."  In the KJV it is
>>"fornication."  
>>[The original meaning involved prostitution, and it is sometimes used
>>in the NT in contexts that mean specifically adultery.  It is used
>>figuratively for idolatry.  Later Judaism used it to cover adultery,
>>incest, sodomy, unlawful marriage, and sexual intercourse in general
>>(??).  Thus the best translation seems to be "sexual immorality",
>>except in a few contexts where "adultery" is clearly meant.  But you'd
>>need to look at more specific passages to define exactly what acts are
>>and aren't immoral.
Are you using a Greek translation, Ernest, or implied translation from
the English usage?

>It's a sad world when I'm following up to my own posts.
Well it took me some time to prepare the reply.....<grin> >

>But OK then, since I need to look at more specific passages, does anyone
>have some support for why sex outside of marriage is sinful?  All the NT
>references I have listed above use the same phrase.  What is a good
>reason for interpreting these to include fornication? 
>--------------\  /^--^\  /--------------  *     Ernest Conrad Mueller IV
>   ------------\| 0  0 |/------------     *     mueller@owlnet.rice.edu
>      ----------\_ <> _/----------        *     Rice U., Home of Owlnet

Ernest, I hate to have you replying to yourself, so will help you
out with your exegesis.  The Greek word you are after is porneia.
 
1 Thessalonians 4:3 (NRSV)   For this is the will of God, your
sanctification: that you abstain from fornication;  
 
1 Thessalonians 4:3 (HG)   . touto:G5124 . . thelema:G2307 .
theos:G2316 . humon:G5216 hagiasmos:G38 . . . apechomai:G567 .
[porneia:G4202]  
 
    4202. porneia, por-ni'-ah; from G4203; harlotry (includ.
adultery and  
    incest); fig. idolatry:--fornication. 
 
Mark 7:21 (NRSV)   For it is from within, from the human heart,
that evil intentions come: fornication, theft, murder,  
 
Mark 7:21 (HG)   . . esothen:G2081 . . . kardia:G2588 .
anthropos:G444 ekporeuomai:G1607 kakos:G2556 dialogismos:G1261
moicheia:G3430 [porneia:G4202] phonos:G5408  
 
 
Matthew 15:19 (NRSV)   For out of the heart come evil intentions,
murder, adultery, fornication, theft, false witness, slander.  
 
Matthew 15:19 (HG)   . . . . kardia:G2588 exerchomai:G1831
poneros:G4190 dialogismos:G1261 phonos:G5408 moicheia:G3430
[porneia:G4202] klope:G2829 pseudomarturia:G5577
pseudomarturia:G5577 blasphemia:G988  
 
Just a side note, you might think this was a similar word.  It is
close, and certainly not a worthy characteristic, but is not
necessarily sexual in orientation.
    4190. poneros, pon-ay-ros'; from a der. of G4192; hurtful,
i.e. evil (prop. in effect or influence, and thus differing from
G2556, which refers rather to essential character, as well as
from G4550, which indicates degeneracy from original virtue);
fig. calamitous; also (pass.) ill, i.e. diseased; but espec.
(mor.) culpable, i.e. derelict, vicious, facinorous; neut.  
(sing.) mischief, malice, or (plur.) guilt; masc. (sing.) the
devil, or (plur.) sinners:--bad, evil, grievous, harm, lewd,
malicious, wicked (-ness). See also G4191. 
 
 
1 Corinthians 6:9 (NRSV)   Do you not know that wrongdoers will
not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived! Fornicators,
idolaters, adulterers, male prostitutes, sodomites,  
 
1 Corinthians 6:9 (HG)   eido:G1492 . . . . adikos:G94 . .
kleronomeo:G2816 . basileia:G932 . theos:G2316 . . planao:G4105
oute:G3777 [pornos:G4205] oute:G3777 eidololatres:G1496
oute:G3777 moichos:G3432 oute:G3777 malakos:G3120 oute:G3777
arsenokoites:G733 . . . arsenokoites:G733  
 
Now this word, though translated fornicators, is a bit different
in concept in that it is male oriented. 
    4205. pornos, por'-nos; from  pernemi (to sell; akin to the
base of G4097); a (male) prostitute (as venal), i.e. (by anal.) a
debauchee (libertine):--fornicator, whoremonger. 
 
And for those of you who get into the scriptural debate about
homosexuality, here are two of the main terms that are bandied
about.  I'll leave it to you to decide if they describe the
present lesbigay relationships that we are always debating about.
 
    3120. malakos, mal-ak-os'; of uncert. affin.; soft, i.e. fine
(clothing); fig. a catamite:--effeminate, soft. 
 
    733. arsenokoites, ar-sen-ok-oy'-tace; from G730 and G2845; a 
sodomite:--abuser of (that defile) self with mankind. 
 
Ernest, I would certainly feel that all the texts you mention
should be define as fornication.  This was one of the great sins
in the time of Jesus.  The other verses that have the term
porneia are:
     Mat 5:32; 15:19; 19:9
     Mk  7:21
     Jn  8:41
     Acts 15:20,29; 21:25
     Rom 1:29
     1 Cor 5:1; 6:13, 18; 7:2
     2 Cor 12:21
     Gal 5:19
     Eph 5:3
     Col 3:5
     1 Th 4:3
and  Rev 2:21; 9:21; 14:8; 17:2,4; 18:3; 19:2
 
Now let's look at two more verses:
 
Matthew 19:5-6   and said, 'For this reason a man shall leave his
father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall
become one flesh'? {6} So they are no longer two, but one flesh.
Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate." 
 
1 Corinthians 6:16   Do you not know that whoever is united to a
prostitute becomes one body with her? For it is said, "The two
shall be [one flesh]." 
 
This would indicate to me that we can only become "one flesh"
with one other person.  By the act of sexual intercourse you are
bound to that other person as long as you both shall live.  This
seems like a good reason for not have sex outside of marriage.
 
Hope this helps, Ernest.
 
Shalom,                   Len Howard, tas@pegasus.com

The Greek references are from Strong's Exhaustive Greek-Hebrew
Concordance.  I would really appreciate any textual criticism from
Greek scholars, since I have no training in the language.  /Len