From: anwyn@hrnowl.lonestar.org (anwyn)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Libertarians, guns, etc. 
Date: Sat, 03 Oct 92 02:43:39 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Horned Owl BBS


In article <1992Oct1.181659.2071@radian.uucp> markbr@radian.uucp writes:

  > 
  > In article <717815607snx@hrnowl.lonestar.org>, anwyn@hrnowl.lonestar.org  >  (anwyn) writes:
  > > 
  > > In article <1992Sep29.172045.18738@radian.uucp> markbr@radian.uucp writes:
  > > 
  > >  The last ref in this thread is Corum responding to Anwyn's assertions, among  >  
  > >   > them that the state is a myth, and that we should change the world only  >  on
  > > > an individual level (if I understand Anwyn's statements correctly). To  >  this,
  > >   > I have only one short comment right now: there was a Protestent (I think)  > >  > minister, during WWII, who later said something to the effect of "When  >  they
  > >   > came for the Jews, I said nothing, for I was not a Jew. When they came  >  for
  > >   > the Gypsies, I said nothing, for I was not a Gypsy. When they came for  >  the
  > >  Catholics, I said nothing, for I was not a Catholic. When they came for  >  *me*,
  > >   > there was no one left to speak out." 
  > > Libertarians of all kinds oppose unnecessary violance. I believe that
  > 
  > They are for necessary violence? Who decides what's necessary?
  > 
  > > all people should choose not to support violance. All persons  should retrain  > > the right (and the means) to defend themselves and inocent third parties.
  > > 
  > > However, when one opposes violance, care must be taken to insure that
  > > the methods used do not acutally increase violance.
  > > 
  > > All violance is committed by individuals. However much violance occurs
  > > in an organized fashion. Groups of organized persons are often involved.
  > 
  > This is just a semantic game. Groups of individuals are often involved
  > in violence by individuals? How would you describe a lynch mob? An army?
  > A secret police?
A group of individual that share a common beief that makes them each
individually violent.
  > 
  > > Although I do not believe in the existance of the State, I do believe
  > > that others do, and these beliefs can have social consequences.
  > > 
  > > If one were to examine the recient history, one will find that most
  > > violance has been committed under the aegis of the various State myths.
  > > The millions sacrificed in the World Wars come to mind. Of course, the
  > > Nazi extermination camps can not be forgotten. Consder those deliberately 
  > > starved and extermined by Stalin. Consider the thousands of Tibetians
  > > reciently killed. The number of people killed under the authority
  > > of a (to me, mythical) state makes insignifacant the number that are
  > > killed by purely individual violance. Therefore, any plan to solve
  > 
  > When the Bomb was dropped over Hiroshima, or the Firestorm started over
  > Dresden, was that individual violence? (As an aside, have you ever read
  > _Catch 22_? "The other side will shoot at me if I go up, and this side will 
  > shoot me if I don't")

Certainly it was individual violence, individuals designed, the bomb, fueled
the plane, and pressed the button. It was a common belief that caused them
to act in concert toward this goal.
  > 
  > > the problem of individual violance is unwise, if that plan expands the
  > > power of the State (or rather the myth of the State if you insist on
  > > being pedantic about it like Corum.)
  > >   >                                       Anwyn? Especially in light of the
  > >   > current attempt, up in WA state, to legislate that homosexuality be  >  immoral
  > >   > & perverse, and taught to be so in the schools & universities?
  > > I do not believe that State schools should take it upon themselves to
  > > teach answers to fundamental moral questions. These questions should be
  > > left to individuals. In fact, I believe all public schools should be sold
  > > to private persons and private organizations. Education is too important
  > > to be left to government. (If you had an important package to send it 
  > > California, would you entrust it to U.S. Snail of Fed EX it?)
  > 
  > Oh, I see. Do you plan to also not see what these private indivuals teach?
  > Suppose Anal Roberts buys your school system. How would you feel about that?
Then go to another or found you own school system. Why do you assume your
own powerlessnes?
  > 
  > > anwyn@hrnowl.lonestar.org     (Sysop horned Owl BBS)
  > 
  >         mark
  > 
  > 
anwyn@hrnowl.lonestar.org	(Sysop horned Owl BBS)