HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: roger@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: JOHN CAGE
Originator: news@nimaster
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1992 05:24:28 GMT

In article <1992Aug23.040050.7879@uniwa.uwa.edu.au> diarmuid@uniwa.uwa.edu.au (Diarmuid Pigott) writes:
>roger@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig) writes:
>: As for Marx, he had precious little effect on music, and what Marxists
>: were saying about music throughout most of Cage's career didn't
>: generally matter too much, certainly not to him.  I'm not sure how he'd
>: have stripped it away...

>I'm afraid the Soviet block is down to old Karl, no matter what the
>apologists say. And social realism is Marxist music. 

No.  Socialist realism is *not* marxist music or marxist anything else.

SR was simply a stick with which to beat people; it was the opposite
of the equally menaingless "formalism."  There is nothing in Marx to
support SR as expounded in any of its constantly shifting formulations,
nor in the writings of Marxists who had much to do with Marx.  

One year, SR meant symphonies.  The next year, it meant that symphonies
were bad.  The year after, some ofthe symphonies criticized the first
time were considered to be SR, while some of the originally SR ones wer
now formalist.

SR and formalism were, ultimately, instruments of terror.  And terror
doesn't really make philosophical distinctions.  Quite the opposite.

Moreover, this tarring of those who disagree with the "apologists" brush
isn't very impressive.  Many of the sharpest critics of the Soviet
regime were Marxists, too, from Trotsky on down the line.

Read MacDonald's _The New Shostakovich_.  It's good on issues like this.
And Marx is hardly ever mentioned, for he has little to do with the
case.

>: Wittgenstein, 

>see Mr Smoliar's elegant summation in his post.

You deleted the rest of the joke.

>: Seriously, where do you fit Ayer in with Cage's music, or, conversely,
>: where do you see it excluded?

>I see it as embodying the reductionist ethos in some parts. Only some

I don't see much reductionism in Cage though.

>pieces - I am not one of those who only permit past giants the luxury of
>phases in working life.

Whatever.

Roger
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: roger@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: Glazunov
Originator: news@nimaster
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 13:45:52 GMT

In article <1992Aug13.164758.2115@brandonu.ca> hanly@brandonu.ca writes:
>In article <1992Aug11.230437.15126@CSD-NewsHost.Stanford.EDU>, spg@Xenon.Stanford.EDU (Stephen P. Guthrie) writes:
>> I'd like to ask the net about Glazunov. Is his music worth exploring?
>> I've heard a couple of the ballets (The Seasons) and the Violin Concerto,
>> but none of the symphonies, quartets, etc. He seems to be a neglected composer.
>A late work of Glazunov that I find quite pleasant is the saxophone concerto.
>It has been recorded by Pekka Savijoki and the New Stockholm Chamber Orchestra.
>I do not know if it has been released on CD. 

>Glazunov taught Shostakovich. There are numerous anecdotes about his 
>drinking habits in Shostakovich's alleged memoirs in TESTIMONY ed
>by Volkov, Harper and ROW 1979. Apparently he used to drink surreptitiously
>while supposedly lost in concentration while listening to students play for
>him. Shostakovich, however, suggests that Glazunov could not hold a
>candle to Mussorgsky as far as drinking was concerned.
> As I recall, it was a glazed drunken Glazy who mangled the first per
>formance of Rachmaninoff's 1st symphony and was the immediate cause of
>Rachmaninoff's profound depression during which he was unable to compose.
>But then maybe our musicologists can prove this is all malicious gossip.

Well, I don't know how much he actually drank that night, but he
certainly was the conductor, and he certainly did a bad job of
rehearsing, and he certainly screwed up royally at the performance,
according to everyone who ever mentioned it in their memoirs.  

But the immediate cause of Rachmaninov's depression was Cui's review of
the performance.

Roger
>  Cheers, Ken Hanly
>
>


Newsgroups: rec.music.classical,rec.music.bluenote,rec.music.makers,alt.exotic-music
From: roger@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: clarinet arcana
Originator: news@nimaster
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 03:15:17 GMT

In article <1992Aug19.194544.387@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk> jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin) writes:
>Some assorted questions, which don't all belong in all these newsgroups:

>- What music was written for the C clarinet?  Thurston's "Clarinet Technique"
>  alludes to it being used in Verdi's orchestra (which doesn't sound like a
>  very rewarding repertoire) - is there any chamber music using it?  Do any
>  jazz players use them?

The C clarinet was used in Austria in orchestral works in the keys of C
and F.  (According to Albrechtberger, clarinet music must be written in
null key signature or one flat; Alb. represents Mozart's score-writing
tehcnique almost exactly, btw.)  So: a few pieces by Mozart and Haydn,
Beethoven's 1st, last mvt of the 5th, etc.  Later, there's the last mvt
of the Fantastique, and a good deal of Richard Strauss.

>- Why did the C clarinet become extinct?

Doesn't sound good.  Not as nice as the B flat, not as sharp as the E
flat.  Strauss could hear the difference even over his orchestration,
and would chew out clarinetists for transposing for B flat instead of
getting a C.  Occasionally he also caught them on B flat/A.

>- Neither instrument has the full set of keys a modern Boehm instrument does,
>  and the Turkish one has some minor incompatibilities.  I have figured out
>  the first three octaves but have no idea what to try for the extreme high
>  register; it feels like it ought to be there if I knew the appropriate
>  fingerings.  Is there a book about mutant clarinet designs that might help?
>  (Since books on the Boehm system *almost* describe both instruments, I
>  assume that neither is an Albert model, but I've never seen a description
>  of the Albert system).

Interesting.  Especially the Czech one.  What scale do you get as you
raise your fingers one by one?  If raising the index finger of the right
hand (leaving only the left hand covering keys) makes a semitone rise,
then you have a German instrument.  Whole step=Boehmoid.

>- I've seen a standard B flat clarinet for sale second-hand: a Boosey
and
>  Hawkes 400, for 250 pounds (= about 400 US dollars).  It looks worth it;
>  certainly far better made than any student model (wood, with nickel-
>  silver keys and ferrules, and a very nice action).  It's tempting to have
>  something normal as well as the mutants.  What does this model go for new,
>  and how good is it?

B&H makes good clarinets.  Alas, clarinets wear out with heavy use; the
bore widens from cleaning, etc. and lowers/messes up the intonation.  

Mind you, B&H doesn't make *great* clarinets.  That's reserved for
Buffet, Selmer, and a few of the Germans (who will turn out a Boehm if
you ask -- for a breathtaking price).

Roger

Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: pierce@lanai.cs.ucla.edu (Brad Pierce)
Subject: Re: Reger's Song of the Hermit
Organization: UCLA, Computer Science Department
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 92 15:12:22 GMT

In article <CB.92Aug21175058@tamarack13.timbuk> cb@tamarack13.timbuk (Chris Brewster) writes:

>In one of those situations of hearing to music without knowing its title
>or composer, I heard Reger's Song of the Hermit (I was almost asleep so
>I hope I have the info right).  I was interested to hear a full-blown
>late-romantic orchestral song that I didn't already know (since there
>aren't many such works), and was totally stumped as to its identity.  It
>was good stuff!  The recording was Fischer-Dieskau sounding a bit old,
>but good.  Anyone know this work?  Other recordings?

>Chris Brewster

I don't know the work, but you probably heard "Der geigende Eremit"
(the fiddling hermit), the first of four tone poems in Reger's Op. 128,
"Tondichtungen nach Arnold Bocklin". This is the same Bocklin
(1827-1901) whose painting inspired Rachmaninoff's tone poem, "The Isle
of the Dead". The third tone poem in Reger's suite is also inspired by
"Die Toteninsel" (the isle of the dead). Comparing two musical works
inspired by the same painting might be an interesting exercise.

According to "melvyl.ucop.edu" there is a 1989 Chandos CD (CHAN 8794)
of Reger's suite. It is performed by the Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra
of Amsterdam and is conducted by Neeme Jarvi.

-- Brad Pierce --

Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: le01167@portal.lasc.lockheed.com (Ron Nadel (x2025))
Subject: Re: Bernstein and Sony's "The Royal Edition"
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: Lockheed Aeronautical Systems Co. - Rye Canyon
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 92 17:50:58 GMT

In article <1992Aug15.005556.24041@msuinfo.cl.msu.edu>, fernande@cps.msu.edu (Jose Roberto Fernandez) writes...
>Sony is in the process of re-releasing Bernstein's CBS Masterworks
>recordings under the so-called "The Royal Edition."  I think only
>volume 1 (Bartok to Bruckner, 29 CDs) is out at this point.  There will
>be a total of 100 items (119 CDs).
> 
>Does anyone have any recommendations on what to look out for?

I wonder if the Harvard Lectures will be included.  I hope so, I've been 
looking for them on CD to complete my LP collection.  Has anyone seen them 
on CD?

Ron
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: cyeomans@ms.uky.edu (Charles Yeomans)
Subject: Re: Wanted: A crash course in composer's styles to guess who wrote 
    a piece
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 18:07:45 GMT
Organization: University Of Kentucky, Dept. of Math Sciences

In article <!c6m09.bskendig@netcom.com> bskendig@netcom.com (Brian Kendig) writes:
>I've had a year and a half of classical music theory, but one of the
>things I was never able to pick up was how to tell the styles of
>different classical composers -- Bach, Beethoven, Mozart, Vivaldi, &c.
>-- apart well enough to, upon hearing a classical piece on the radio,
>intelligently guess who wrote it.  This isn't anything crucial, but it
>would be great 'coffee-table' knowledge (that is, trivia ;).
>
>Could anyone here suggest a run-down on some of the composers with
>obvious stylistic 'trademarks' that would tend to appear in their work
>more often than in other pieces?  I mean, when you hear a classical
>piece and say 'that sounds like Brahms', what is it about the piece
>that tips you off that Brahms wrote it (if you didn't already know)?
>
>Just curious, and wanting to impress some people by making myself look
>educated.  ;)
>
>     << Brian >>
>
I wouldn't think a year and a half is enough time to acquire this sort
of parlor trick.  THe only composer I can identify with accuracy
is Beethoven - and I imagine I can do this because I have listened to
a lot of Beethoven and I have listened to some pieces several hundred times.
I can sometimes spot Schumann because of his crappy orchestration, and 
there are a few other composers I can get.

Your mileage may vary.

Charles Yeomans
cyeomans@ms.uky.edu
yeomans@austin.onu.edu
From: jdooley@maemaster.eng.uci.edu (John R. Dooley)
Subject: Re: Singers wanted
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: 17 Aug 92 23:43:18 GMT

In article <1992Aug12.200604.22746@viewlogic.com> brad@buck.viewlogic.com (Bradford Kellogg) writes:
>
>In article <5511@transfer.stratus.com>, dpotts@sw.stratus.com (David Potts) writes:
>|> 
>[stuff deleted]
>
>It seems community choral groups often go for Bach, Mozart, and the like.
>This is nothing to object to, but I wonder why some music seems to be
>often avoided. For example, a capella works by Monteverdi or Desprez,
>which I find particularly spectacular in live performance, are not
>often done. 
>
>Admittedly, the appeal of Rennaisance music is not as broad as Baroque, 
>but surely the audience (and indeed prospective singers) would not stay 
>away in droves if along with Bach's Magnificat was advertised O Magnum 
>Mysterium. 
>

Beyond the question of lack of popularity of music before J.S. Bach ... 

1.  It seems to me (a non-singer if I want to keep my friends) that
choral music from the renaissance, such as Josquin des Prez's,
is more difficult to perform than many later Chorale pieces.  
Since, this music uses polyphony it's more challenging for the
singers and (especially) for the choir master.  So, performing
this music adequately requires an extremely well-trained and
coherent choir.  

    Whereas, Baroque and Classical choral music can be quite 
demanding on the soloists, but the parts for the choir as a whole
are less difficult than parts for a renaissance choir.  

2.  The size of the choirs for Baroque and Classical music are much
larger than Renaissance ensembles.  Even Renaissance works that are 
scored for many voices have the singers broken into relatively
small units.  (For instance, the Tallis 40-part motet "Spem in Alium"
is designated for 8 5-singer choirs.)  So, in a way, asking a choir
that sings Baroque works to sing Renaissance works is a little like
asking an Early Music Ensemble to perform R. Strauss.  (Well, it's
a bad analogy but I can't think of a better one.)


John D.
From: simona@panix.com (Simona Nass)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Singers wanted
Date: 19 Aug 92 20:18:02 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Unix, NYC

In <2A903996.24465@orion.oac.uci.edu> jdooley@maemaster.eng.uci.edu (John R. Dooley) writes:

>Beyond the question of lack of popularity of music before J.S. Bach ... 

>1.  It seems to me (a non-singer if I want to keep my friends) that
>choral music from the renaissance, such as Josquin des Prez's,
>is more difficult to perform than many later Chorale pieces.  
>Since, this music uses polyphony it's more challenging for the
>singers and (especially) for the choir master.  So, performing
>this music adequately requires an extremely well-trained and
>coherent choir.  

It may be harder to stay in tune, but baroque music is faster to
sight-read, so I personally have an easier time with Renaissance music.

>(For instance, the Tallis 40-part motet "Spem in Alium"
>is designated for 8 5-singer choirs.)

Great piece. I sang it for the first time just a few weeks (months?) ago,
one per part. I've been listening to the recording over and over ever
since--I'm addicted. -S.
-- 
        Alumni of Stuyvesant HS of New York: e-mail stuy@panix.com
    if you wish to participate in compiling an alumni e-mail directory
---------  simona@panix.com    or    {apple,cmcl2}!panix!simona  ----------
Disclaimer: I am not an attorney, though I do have an opinion on everything.
From: henning@acsu.buffalo.edu (Karl Steele Henning)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Rocky <sans Bullwinkle>
Summary: was Re: Beethoven - overvalued?
Date: 14 Aug 92 00:16:08 GMT
Organization: UB

Brandon Ausman writes:

>Unfortunate that no one has yet to mention Rachmaninoff, who was truly
>one of the most talented piano composers of the last two hundred years[,]
>not eclipsing Beethoven or Chopin ...

... or Debussy or Ravel or Stravinsky or Prokofiev or Bartok
or Messiaen or Wuorinen, for that matter, IMHO.

I like Rocky II well enough, but I find as good and better,
and greater variety, in the work of the Seven Giants :-)

kp[Rocky II makes me think of the Far Side cartoon
	     "Full Moon and Empty Head" & that /is/
	              one of the reasons I like it]h
-- 
My answers are rumored to reflect my own highly personal  []  Karl Prescott Hen
assortment of loosely organized interests, and may prove  []  57 Glasgow st /ni
 entirely unsuitable for YOU;  but what did you expect?   []  Roch NY 14608 /ng
From: simona@panix.com (Simona Nass)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Renaissance misconceptions (Re: Singers wanted?)
Date: 19 Aug 92 20:30:24 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Unix, NYC

In <1992Aug17.225950.14839@husc3.harvard.edu> elkies@ramanujan.harvard.edu (Noam Elkies) writes:

>This too is questionable: i) Bach's choirs were generally of a size
>comparable to those of Josquin or Schutz or Palestrina. ii) Choruses
>much larger than either Bach or Josquin used can perform either
>composer's works well.

Have you ever heard renaissance music performed by more than 5 people per
voice? Yeesh! But, for some reason, people find 30 per part acceptable for
Mozart. And yes, I thought Mozart's C minor Mass is relatively easy compared
to many of the Renaissance pieces I've sung, especially when trying to sing
Renaissance pieces without much vibrato in my voice (funny how G seems high
all of a sudden).

>Besides Spem, one would be hard-put to find even a 10-part motet
>from the same period.  Usually 3 to 6 parts, with an occasional
>7-part motet or 8-part double-chorus piece.

Anyone sung Josquin's Tulerunt Dominum Meun (8-part, double chorus)? What
other neat pieces are there with lots of parts? BTW, we're going to try to
do an informal reading of Spem in NYC around Xmas this year, but we don't
have enough friends who can sight-sing. -S.
-- 
        Alumni of Stuyvesant HS of New York: e-mail stuy@panix.com
    if you wish to participate in compiling an alumni e-mail directory
---------  simona@panix.com    or    {apple,cmcl2}!panix!simona  ----------
Disclaimer: I am not an attorney, though I do have an opinion on everything.
From: bobs@hal.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Bob Sutton)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Music of John Adams
Date: 22 Aug 92 21:51:58 GMT
Organization: ???

Anyone know if a CD has been released yet of John Adams' "El Dorado"?  I
heard it performed with the Los Angeles PHilharmonic with the composer
conducting in April.  It is the most powerful piece Adams' has ever written
and I want it!

-- 
Bob Sutton                        Love, most bitterly and fiercely oppresses
bobs@gnu.ai.mit.edu		  those who fight it than those who offer
al876@cleveland.freenet.edu       their servitude.    -- Ovid (Amores)
From: le01167@portal.lasc.lockheed.com (Ron Nadel (x2025))
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: SEARCH Help request
Date: 13 Aug 92 15:52:01 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Lockheed Aeronautical Systems Co. - Rye Canyon
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

I need help locating two musical items.  

1)  At the end of the movie _Chariots of Fire_ the boys choir is singing, 
I believe, _Jerusalem_.  Who composed this?  Are there known recordings?
If so are there recommendations between them, and is the other music by 
this composer something to look into?  The soundtrack album contains only 
the final minute of so featuring an annoying fade-in. 

2)  I recently heard on a classical music station a newish album of what I 
think was Jamaican music (sounded like mostly a female group).  The music 
greatly reminded me of the Bulgarian style of singing with many-part 
harmony and a thick texture, but with a little something else that 
distinguished it from Bulgarian (great description, I know 8^\)

Thanks for any help you can render,

Ron
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: JONATHAN EPSTEIN <JHE4151@a10vax.draper.com>
Subject: Bits and Pieces
Reply-To: JHE4151@a10vax.draper.com
Organization: The Internet
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 15:12:36 GMT

I have a copy of the 3/11/90 Front tape. It is a 3rd gen SBD. I don't have the
"Cantaloupe" but I do have the Harpua that was mentioned. My tape is a full
90 minutes of asst. tunes from that show. I know someone who has the
master tapes, but I haven't seen him in over two years. If I cannot get in
touch with him (Andy at UVM, those in the area should look for him) I would
love to help out with reassembling this show.

-Jonathan
jhe4151@a10vax.draper.com
From: Alex Brozan <studentcoord@igc.apc.org>
Newsgroups: rec.music.phish
Date: 19 Aug 92 06:54 PDT
Subject: Roskilde, Denmark show
Nf-ID: #N:cdp:1628700015:000:1699
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!studentcoord    Aug 19 06:54:00 1992


From: Alex Brozan <studentcoord>
Subject: Roskilde, Denmark show

/* Written  6:52 am  Aug 19, 1992 by studentcoord in cdp:rec.music.phis */
/* ---------- "/" ---------- */
From: Alex Brozan <studentcoord>
Subject: /

/* Written  1:39 pm  Aug 18, 1992 by studentcoord in cdp:rec.music.phis */
/* ---------- "/" ---------- */


wow! Was pleasently surprised to have accidentally stumbled onto this Phish
conference, quite by chance. 

I am wondering if anybody else out there happened to have seen Phish at the
Roskilde Music Festival in Denmark this summer.  It was a huge enormous festi
at which 70,000 people watched over 100 bands for four days in the sun with lots
of great danish beer.  The festival overall was fabulous, but the highlight for
me was definitely Phish.  There were quite a few American bands there, that
roughly fell into two categories: Well-Known in Europe (Nirvana, Faith No More,
David Byrne) and Virtually Unknown in Europe (Phish and many others). So...
all the concertgoers flocked to the well known American bands because
they had seen them on MTV (ugh). But the crowds were smaller at the more
unknown American bands, who usually played on one of the smaller stages.
SO... you had the strange situation at Phish's set of a crowd that was half-
Americans and half Danes etc, even though there were very few Americans at
the festival. Great show, though! Fantastic.  I ran into Trey earlier in the
festival and he was very glad and surprised that somebody had recognized him!
I also met a handful of real genuine nutty Phish fans who were actually 
doing the entire Phish European tour. Dedication!

Just wanted to relate that and see if anyone else was there....


alex
From: scotts@vonnegut.ee.cornell.edu (Scott Duane Satterthwaite)
Newsgroups: rec.music.phish
Subject: November Portchester dates???
Date: 22 Aug 92 18:28:29 GMT
Reply-To: scotts@vonnegut.ee.cornell.edu
Organization: The Internet


I saw in a recent issue of Pollstar that Phish was scheduled to play the
27th and 28th of November at the Capitol Theater in Portchester NY.  Pollstar
is basically the weekly newsletter for concert promoters and agents, so is
usually very accurate.  I was wondering if anybody knew anything about this??


phish on!!!

Scott
From: rafael@cats.ucsc.edu (David Konerding)
Newsgroups: rec.music.phish
Subject: how to get to coach house?
Date: 15 Aug 92 06:05:59 GMT
Organization: University of California; Santa Cruz
NNTP-Posting-Host: am.ucsc.edu



	Hiya.  In a couple days me and several other glides will be making
the significant trek from Santa Cruz to San Juan Capistrano to see Phish.
We're plenty excited- it's been since 4/19/92 for two of us and the other
two are excited to finally SEE the band we've been playing tapes constantly
of.

	Sadly, I lost the direction to the Coach House from Rt 5.  Could
somebody email them to me?

	I'm *excited*, very *excited*, because I agree with the previous poster
about the upcoming full show- it'll be their first full show in a *very*
long time and I expect because of that it's going to be one *very* *very*
kick-ass show.  I get the impression that the Coach House is a cool place to
see a band- laid back security and small venue, too.

	Although I won't be able to make it to any of the possible net
gatherings, I wish you the best of luck in having one!  I'll be wearing
*my* phish-net shirt, so come up and say hi :-)
From: gertben@ocf.berkeley.edu (Benjamin Gertner)
Newsgroups: rec.music.phish
Subject: Northfield Mt. Hermon alumni?
Date: 17 Aug 1992 04:40:53 GMT
Organization: U.C. Berkeley Open Computing Facility
NNTP-Posting-Host: tornado.berkeley.edu

My friend Scott Selby is wondering whether there are any recent grads 
from Northfield Mt. Hermon out there. If you graduated in '90 or '91,
email me at gertben@ocf.berkeley.edu. Sorry for the lack of Phish content.

-Ben

Newsgroups: rec.music.phish