HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: duzan@oin.cis.udel.edu (Gary D. Duzan)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.banyan-l
Subject: Re: TN.EXE and 1MB Trident video Cards
Date: 10 Nov 92 23:53:31 GMT
Organization: Your Organization Could Be Here!

In article <1525@tekgen.bv.tek.com> chrisn@tekgen.bv.tek.com (Christopher Nawrocki) writes:
=>I have also had this problem with a 1 Mb Diamond Stealth.  I can only use
=>rlogin from within Windows or the PC will hang.  You are not alone...
=>
   TN works fine on our Ethernet (SMC Elite 16) systems but craps out on
ARCNet systems. Vines gets trashed (no drives available) and I have to
reboot. I also can't get the -m (use expanded memory) option to work on
IBanyan (version 2.1) reliably. It tends to generate invalid instruction
calls, dump Windows, lock the system, and generally behave badly.

                                   Gary D. Duzan
                                   Network Administrator
                                   Delaware State Hospital



-- 
                             duzan@cis.udel.edu
   _o_                       ------------------                         _o_
 [|o o|]       Virtual Reality? No thanks, I've already got one.      [|o o|]
  |_O_|       Disclaimer: I have no idea what I am talking about.      |_O_|
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4dev PL11]
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.banyan-l
Date:         Thu, 5 Nov 1992 15:16:27 CST
From:         "(Steve Cochran)" <cochran@KATANA.PCPD.HOU.COMPAQ.COM>
Subject: Re: Vines Print Accounting
              "Stephane=Bourque%Eng%Incognito%DEAN.ARTS.SFU.CA%VM1.CC.UAKRON
              .EDU@twisto.eng.h ou.compaq.com" at Nov 3, 92 09:51:03 am

Stephane:

I have downloaded and installed LPD and ToLPD.  We have no current use
for the latter at this time, but I will be looking at it with the hope
that we offer the LAN based (IP) print option soon.  First, I would like
to say that I am very impressed with the LPD service so far.  Good job!

I do have one concern with it right now.  The service is limited to
handling 10 Vines Print services.  We have gobs of print services and
we would like to avoid the need to purchase the TCP/IP option for a bunch
of servers.  Is this limitation adjustable (is is only in place for the
eval?)?  I have not had much time to test yet, but I will give you feed
back as I get deeper into it.

I would also be interested in the pricing for the product and support
contracts if available.

Thanks again,
--
*******************************************************************
*                            |                                    *
* Steve Cochran              |   The opinions expressed (if       *
* Systems Engineer (Networks)|   any) are my own and do not       *
* cochran@compaq.com         |   represent those of my employer.  *
* CompuServe: 76040,270      |                                    *
*                            |                                    *
*******************************************************************
From: Lou=Janelle%Faculty%WAYNE@AUBURN.UAKRON.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.banyan-l
Subject: 16 BIT CARD PERFORMANCE
Date: 5 Nov 92 21:58:33 GMT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU

We recently installed an NE2000 card in one of our workstations and ran the
NORTON Utility System Information Network Drive Benchmark test on it and
compared the results with those from an 8-bit card.

The test reported Reads of 333.3 K/Sec for the 16-bit card versus 277.7 K/Sec
on the 8-bit card.  Writes recorded 147.0 K/sec on the 16-bit card and 138.8
K/Sec with the 8-bit card.  These results were obtained with a Compaq 386/33L
server.

We ran the same tests off of a Dell 486/33Mhz server and got higher rates:
Reads 357.1 K/Sec, Writes 178.5 K/Sec (16-bit) versus Read 294.1 K/Sec and
Writes 131.5 K/Sec for the 8-bit card.

The 16-bit card and the 8-bit cards were both installed on Dell 486P/25
machines.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Lou Janelle                              216/683-2010
The University of Akron-Wayne College    FAX:  216/683-1517
1901 Smucker Rd
Orrville OH 44667
LOUJ%FACULTY%WAYNE@BANYAN.UAKRON.EDU
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.banyan-l
Date:         Tue, 10 Nov 1992 12:57:11 CET
From:         Bent=Tranberg%Data%AID@BAN.AID.NO
Subject:      re: Post Office

>>To :   SMTP[user@128.39.145.39]
>>
>>It did not work. Should it? Is there another way to send mail to a machine
>>that does not have it's name in a name server? It would be easier than
>>setting up a local name server just for a few addresses.

>I tried  SMTP[user@[146.189.16.2]],  this work for us, but I do have our
>SMTP gateway use the "default mail router ip."  But it was delivered
>onto the default mail router with the correct heading, so I will
>assume that this would work for a non-default mail router SMTP
>gateway.

The default mail router we are using do not accept IP-addresses. I would
like to keep this traffic away from the name server/default mail router on
internet anyway. I wanted to SetMail Server[Smtp@Group@Org[user@[1.2.3.4]]]
in a users profile.

We are going to use a HP 9000/720 as a name server, and for cleaning up those
terrible abc=def%ghi%jkl@ban.aid.no addresses. What happened to the services
and other solutions that were discussed on the list some time ago? We did not
have SMTP then, but now that we do... I would hate to waste that HP.

Bent.Tranberg@ban.aid.no
Agder College of Engineering, Grimstad, Norway (soon to be member of the EEC)
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
From: CFISAD=CLBGRP17%MQG1@MQG1.USMC.MIL
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.banyan-l
Subject: NO SUBJECT
Date: 13 Nov 92 00:10:50 GMT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU

To:            sswgate@clbrasc1@servers[ddn.s00305]
Cc:
Bcc:
From:          INTERNET@ISMO@2d FSSG
Subject:       re: Re: NO SUBJECT
Date:          Thursday, November 12, 1992 at 2:19:37 pm EST
Attach:
Certify:       Y

---------------------------- [Message Follows] ---------------------------------


Craig,

        I want to find out what users are logged in on certian lines connected
to the server. The toolkit provides a function to find out who it is but I
need a IPC port address. How do I get this.

Ralph
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Envelope-to: BANYAN-L@VM1.CC.UAKRON.EDU
X-VMS-To: UTRCGW::IN%"BANYAN-L@VM1.CC.UAKRON.EDU"
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.banyan-l
Date:         Fri, 13 Nov 1992 09:58:21 -0400
From:         S30110%21518@UTRCGW.UTC.COM
Subject:      Re: Problem with date when logged in over night

 I have yet to see the banyan diagnostics for the 3com products work
correctly. I wish they would fix this because when I am out on a call I don't
ussually have a 3com diagnostic disk with me...

Mike Mandulak
From: harakka_j@SALCJKL.SALCOM.FI (Juha Harakka SALCOM Finland Oy)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.banyan-l
Subject: Problem with date when logged in over night
Date: 11 Nov 92 16:08:14 GMT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Vms-Mail-To: uu%"BANYAN-L@VM1.CC.UAKRON.EDU",HARAKKA_J

Hello All,

One user have noticed the following problem: If his machine is logged in
over midnight, the date doesn't change  correctly.  But if not logged
in, the date is updated normally (the network software can even be loaded).
To make it more mysterious, it hapeens only in one machine, others work just
fine no matter whether they are logged in or not.

This machine where the problem occurs is PS2/80 with DOS 5.0 and with
with 3COM's 503/MC Ethernet card.  Also, they are using The Really
Useful Service utilities from Portfolio Systems.

Have anybody never seen anything like this? Any ideas?

Another short question.  Does the Bnayan's diage503.com work propely
with the 3COM's 503/16 card?  I have seen it complaining about transmit
loopback test (no, not the echo server test) while the diagnostics
included with the card finds no problems.  Also VINES works fine.

Many thanks in advance!

						- juha -





----Juha Harakka, SALCOM Finland OY, Box 37, SF-40321 Jyvaskyla      -
---Tel: +358-41-685 333 & +358-49-643 319, Fax: +358-41-677 944     --
--X.400:c=fi;admd=fumail;o=salcom;s=Juha.Harakka,BIX: jharakka     ---
-Internet: Juha.Harakka@salcom.fi PSImail: 244324100014::Harakka_J----
From: Jennifer=Jester%Mktg%Banyan@MAGNOLIA.BANYAN.COM
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.banyan-l
Subject: re: Novell
Date: 12 Nov 92 15:46:28 GMT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU

Hi!

We have the results of a research study conducted last year that compares the
costs of network administration (including most commonly performed tasks) for
VINES, NetWare, LAN Manager, LAN Server, and PATHWORKS.  The study was
conducted by the Business Research Group in Newton, MA.

If you send me your address and anyone else who is interested in receiving a
copy, I'd be happy to send one.

Jennifer Jester
Manager, Public Communications
Banyan Systems
From: TSHANNON@WCU.BITNET (Tom Shannon)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.banyan-l
Subject: Reply to conversion to Lan Manager
Date: 12 Nov 92 17:13:23 GMT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU


 Bob, We are currently running Banyan Vines 4.00 and lloking at 5.50. We plan
 to lay fiber to connect 52 buildings and 1200 workstations to 10 servers. This
 project will begin in the spring of '93. Currently we are running with 250
 workstations connected to 5 servers and service an account (students and
 faculty) of approximately 4000 users. We plan to have an account database of
 approximately 15,000 when we finish the work. As far as information sources we
 have relied on the trade journals, user discussion lists, vendors suggestions,
 and our own testing and experience (we are testing Lan Manager 2.1a).
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Mailer: Elm [revision: 66.25]
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.banyan-l
Date:         Thu, 12 Nov 1992 22:46:13 PST
From:         Craig Armstrong <craiga@SPOCK.DIS.CCCD.EDU>
Subject:      Re: PCCONFIG.DB Toolkit Calls
              Nov 12, 92 6:16 pm

>
> Has anyone discovered any 'toolkit' calls that modify pcconfig.db?
>
> For instance, I'd like to be able to do the following:
>
>         1) find out what network driver is selected (plus config info)
>         2) change configuration (for instance COM1 -> COM2 for Async)
>         3) set, or examine the login search group list
>         4) modify comm buffer settings, etc
>

John, you've actually hit a subject area with the toolkit that I'm not
familiar with. Obviously, since pcconfig.db is a DOS file, there is no need
for the toolkit, thus the only problem is figuring out the structure to
map out the file. A year or so ago, Hank Swartz from Banyan put a file on
CI$ that did some stuff with pcconfig.db. I don't beleive it updated it,
but the structure info could be useful to you. If you can't get to
Compu$lime, let me know and I'll try and find the program, source of course!

CraigA

--

****************************************************************************
*  Craig Armstrong - VINES hack...             craiga@spock.dis.cccd.edu   *
*  Coast Community College District            (714) 432-5066              *
*  District Information Services               Costa Mesa,  Ca  USA  92626 *
*                                                                          *
*  "If it doesn't matter if you win or lose, why do they keep score?"      *
****************************************************************************
From: MA=Crist%Info_Sys%STG_IS@DSO3.DSD.TRW.COM
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.banyan-l
Subject: re: Banyan reviews
Date: 11 Nov 92 16:24:59 GMT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU

Lee,

You have no cause to be concerned, because your magazine (naturally) is one of
the few (Network Computing isn't bad) that cover VINES fairly.  Just to put
you at ease my data concerning coverage vis a vis advertising dollars came
from an editor AND a writer from two of the biggest industry rags (names
with-held to protect the guilty).

Mike Crist
TRW
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.banyan-l
Date:         Tue, 10 Nov 1992 07:51:15 CST
From:         GARY=SINTON%TTI=BUSINESS%TTI@TTIADMIN.TAMU.EDU
Subject:      TN.EXE and 1MB Trident video Cards

One of our micros has difficulty running TN.EXE. The micro chirps, the video
locks up, and the only way to revive the video is by rebooting the machine.
We are running PC/TCP version 2.05 from FTP software under Vines 4.11 (5).
Our microcomputers all contain 3C503 thinwire cards.
I can avoid the above problem if I remove the TVGA card (which has 1 meg
memory) from the machine and use another video card. This problem has
happened twice in the past with other machines that had 1 meg video cards.
But I was able to avoid the problem by trying different address-interrupt
combinations on the NIC. Has anyone encountered this problem before?
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.banyan-l
Date:         Sun, 8 Nov 1992 11:18:39 ADS
From:         Ian.Brabham@CC.MONASH.EDU.AU
Subject:      re: STDA problem in Mail

Mike,

>I have a new group of users.  When they try and call STDA (F2) within Mail,
>all they get is a beep.  However, STDIRECT works fine (but we don't want to
>use the extra memory).  Here is what we have tried so far: ...........

From: Bent=Tranberg%Data%AID%BAN.AID.NO@VM1.CC.UAKRON.EDU

<Do they have enough memory? Maybe F2 within mail is trying to start another
<program.

Mail does indeed start extra programs for the F2 functions XMAIL.EXE for the
old style StreetTalk lookup and XSTD.EXE for the new style Stda lookup.

If there is not enough memory there will be a very unobvious little message
"Not enough memory" printed at the bottom left hand corner of the screen.
Just above the "F10-Done ESC-Quit F2-..." legends on the bottom line.

Also check their profiles and any profiles they USE for !SETSTDA settings, a
common brainfade most people suffer is to enter the name of an stda service
instead of the name of a SERVER.  ie !SETSTDA MYSERVER /NOALT

Ian Brabham                 email: ian@banyan.cc.monash.edu.au
Micro Support Group         phone: +61 3 565 4742
Monash University           fax:   +61 3 565 4746
Melbourne Australia
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Mailer: Elm [revision: 66.25]
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.banyan-l
Date:         Thu, 12 Nov 1992 14:27:53 PST
From:         Craig Armstrong <craiga@SPOCK.DIS.CCCD.EDU>
Subject:      re: IPCPORT Address for client.

>
> The toolkit has a call to get a NIC address associated with a user/IPC port?!
>
> If so which version of the toolkit?  I have the 5.0 toolkit and haven't found
> it yet.
>
> Greg Burgess....

Greg, the call to do that is in enet.zip in the src directory on csus.edu. The
call is an undocumented call to VanGuard and Banyan said it was ok to post it.

Good luck....

--

****************************************************************************
*  Craig Armstrong - VINES hack...             craiga@spock.dis.cccd.edu   *
*  Coast Community College District            (714) 432-5066              *
*  District Information Services               Costa Mesa,  Ca  USA  92626 *
*                                                                          *
*  "If it doesn't matter if you win or lose, why do they keep score?"      *
****************************************************************************
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.banyan-l
Date:         Thu, 12 Nov 1992 09:50:30 EST
From:         Ed=Galvin%ChicagoSupport%Banyan@MAGNOLIA.BANYAN.COM
Subject:      re: What Servers Z:

Further clarification. The broadcast for the Z: drive goes out zero hops
first looking for revision level to match the PC and also the location (I.E.
French, German, etc) with also DOS and OS/2 as further criteria. If servers
match the first server to respond will be the Z: drive server. If no matches
the broadcast is changed to 1 hop. The PC broadcasts three times in both
instances, looking for responses.

Note: If both fail, NEWREV is invoked if BAN is loaded. If you use Ban/NC,
netdriver, redir, for high memory loading, NEWREV will NOT be invoked
automatically. You will just get a 25th line message that Vines Files is out
of REV.

Two further notes: 1 HOP broadcast is max hop count and also the broadcats
will only be processed by server nodes on high speed media, LANS only.



					Ed Galvin
					Systems Consultant, Banyan Chicago
From: CFISAD=CLBGRP17%MQG1@MQG1.USMC.MIL
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.banyan-l
Subject: NO SUBJECT
Date: 11 Nov 92 05:58:22 GMT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU

To:            L  ,
               sswgate@clbrasc1@servers[s00305.ddn]
Cc:
Bcc:
From:          INTERNET@ISMO@2d FSSG
Subject:       re: send.exe and winsend.exe
Date:          Tuesday, November 10, 1992 at 10:14:50 pm EST
Attach:
Certify:       N
Forwarded by:  INTERNET@ISMO@2d FSSG

---------------------------- [Message Follows] ---------------------------------


Daniel,

        As far as I know there is no replacement for WinSend.exe BUT there is
hope. Give me a call so I can get some info, and I will create you one.

Cpl Ralph Krausse
Lan Comm Section
Information Systems Management Office
Camp Lejeune,NC 28542
919-451-3799,3982
From: Ian.Brabham@CC.MONASH.EDU.AU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.banyan-l
Subject: re: Shark!mail Problems
Date: 12 Nov 92 04:02:07 GMT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

>If someone has figured out how to optimize LanShark Mail so it's worth the
>load time, please inform me how.

Give Scott Sharkey a 16Mhz 386sx with 2Meg memory, a 40 meg stepper disk and
a NI5010 ethernet card <Grin!>.

(Sorry Scott no offence intended I just couldn't resist)

For machines with slow network response you could try putting some of the
files on the local hard disk.

Ian
From: CFISAD=CLBGRP17%MQG1@MQG1.USMC.MIL
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.banyan-l
Subject: NO SUBJECT
Date: 13 Nov 92 02:56:07 GMT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU

To:            sswgate@clbrasc1@servers[ddn.s00305]
Cc:
Bcc:
From:          INTERNET@ISMO@2d FSSG
Subject:       re: Banyan Unix Tools
Date:          Thursday, November 12, 1992 at 10:59:20 am EST
Attach:
Certify:       Y

---------------------------- [Message Follows] ---------------------------------


Joe,
        As for tools, I can't help you but I am looking for other Toolkit
programmers to talk about program problems. I do have a few utils that I have
made under windows for a Lan/Wan. Give me a call. 919-451-3799/3982.

Cpl Ralph Krausse
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Envelope-to: BANYAN-L@VM1.CC.UAKRON.EDU
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.banyan-l
Date:         Wed, 4 Nov 1992 23:45:15 +0100
From:         Hendrik.Klompmaker@BEHEER.ZOD.WAU.NL
Subject: re: XUsers

Bob,

>I'm stumped.  I have never seen an XUSERS duplicate a user-id, and I have a
>lab where all the PC's log in under one generic id.  This is a shot in the
>dark, but could it be something unique to a version of Vines in a different
>language?

Don't think so. I use 4.11 (5) US.
xusers *@*@* /s should display duplicate logins.

===============================================================================
|******** Wageningen Agricultural University. Animal Production Group ********|
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hendrik Klompmaker		Internet : Hendrik.Klompmaker@Beheer.Zod.Wau.Nl
System Manager			Bitnet	 : KLOMPMAKER@HWALHW50.BITNET
Phone : +31 (0)8370-83934	Fax	 : +31 (0)8370-83962
Snail : Marijkeweg 40, 6709 PG	WAGENINGEN, The Netherlands
===============================================================================
From: CFISAD=CLBGRP17%MQG1@MQG1.USMC.MIL
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.banyan-l
Subject: NO SUBJECT
Date: 13 Nov 92 13:28:44 GMT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU

To:            sswgate@clbrasc1@servers[ddn.s00305]
Cc:
Bcc:
From:          INTERNET@ISMO@2d FSSG
Subject:       re: PCCONFIG.DB Toolkit Calls
Date:          Thursday, November 12, 1992 at 10:19:56 pm EST
Attach:
Certify:       N

---------------------------- [Message Follows] ---------------------------------


John,
        I have seen a program that will show pcconfig setting but not change
them. If you do change them, usually you have to reboot the machine unless you
did the changes before loading ban, so why?

Ralph Krausse
Camp Lejeune,NC
919-451-3799
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.banyan-l
Date:         Wed, 4 Nov 1992 14:08:37 EST
From:         SOHIER_DANNY%CTI%ULAVAL@CAMPUS.ULAVAL.CA
Subject:      re: Mac Clients

MMHHH.....  Could it be possible that your mac client is printing with the
device that was in the original zone?  Cause when a Vines server "grabs" the
pap printer, it usually puts an "image" of the latter in the same appletalk
zone as the server.

Exemple:
original PAP name:  LASERWRITER  was found in zone OFFICE
now with Vines:     LASER@GROUP@ORG will be found in zone ETHERTALK *

* Assume that zone ETHERTALK is the zone where you will find the Vines
Servers.

So you have two names for the device, one in the original Appletalk zone and
the other one who has the StreeTalk name in the same zone as the vines server.

As to answering your question, the user should use the device with the ST
name.

Hope this helps,

All the best,


Danny J. Sohier
Laval University
Quebec city, Canada
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.banyan-l
Date:         Mon, 9 Nov 1992 10:22:32 EST
From:         R=Stoll%SysAdmin%7CG@LGGATE2.HQ.AF.MIL
Subject:      Shark!mail Problems

Is anyone else besides me having problems with Shark!mail v1.12?
Specifically, when replying to messages with "Quote on reply" turned on, I
get UAEs in Windows 3.0 and General Protection Faults in Windows 3.1.
Also, "Reply All" mangles addresses when replying to addresses going
through the SMTP gateway.

I called the folks at LanShark, and one of their engineers said that it
was a problem with Banyan's MTA and not with Shark!mail.


SSgt Robert Stoll
7th Communications Group
The Pentagon

rstoll@lggate2.hq.af.mil
From: rick@SJSUMCS.SJSU.EDU (Richard Warner)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.banyan-l
Subject: Re: Banyan reviews
Date: 12 Nov 92 16:33:43 GMT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11]
              92 11:04 pm

> Hmm.  Well, I never felt that pressure at any of the books I worked at.
> I'm sorry to hear others have.  Given Mr. Zachman's recent public
> disagreements with Ziff-Davis, I wouldn't necessarily assume he's an
> unbiased source, but no doubt he's not the only one.
>
> Lee Schlesinger
> Editor, ABUI Network News
> 617-891-6622

And the Zachmann case is a totally different animal.  The charge
Mike Crist made was that reviews were biased due to advertising
dollars.  Zachmann charged that the editorial staff wanted him
to tone down his enthusiasm for a product due to advertising dollars.
Asking someone to tread lightly is different than deliberately
slanting a review.  The latter involves possible disinformation or
misinformation, the former does not.

+-----------------------+-------------------------------------+
|   Richard M. Warner   |   Internet:  rick@sjsumcs.sjsu.edu  |
|                       | CompuServe:  71121,2257             |
+-----------------------+-------------------------------------+
|  ** DISCLAIMER:  All opinions are strictly my own.  I work  |
|                  hard enough at forming them!               |
+-------------------------------------------------------------+
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU