From: psyrobtw@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Robert Weiss)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Church and Rome
Date: 27 Aug 92 03:07:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <BtLK7s.C4B@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>, creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Steve Creps) writes...
>In article <BtKKB3.rJ@acsu.buffalo.edu> psyrobtw@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Robert Weiss) writes:
>>>   Furthermore, when one takes the time to read other histories of the
>>>early Church, i.e. the early Fathers, one certainly finds very strong
>>>evidence that today the Catholic Church is more like the early Church
>>>than any of the other denominations of Christianity today.  One must
>>>twist Scripture to "prove" otherwise.
>>
>>	The early church was denomination-less. True christianity has 
>>remained denomination-less. It has remained an organism as it has 
>>always been. It has not been changed into an organization.
> 
>   Bob, I thought about the word "denomination" as I was writing.  My
>use of the phrase "other denominations" was not meant to imply that
>the Catholic Church is also a denomination.  I believe the Catholic
>Church is the same Church founded by Christ, and that denominations
>are those that have split off from the Catholic Church.  The Catholic
>Church did not split off from another church, so it is not a
>denomination.

	The Christian Church is that body that was established by 
Christ. To presume that the church of Rome is the same body as the 
early Christian church is a rather hasty conclusion.

	The early church was basically a vague assortment of people that 
banded together. Later there appeared three chief episcopates: Rome, 
Antioch and Alexandria; still later the episcopate of Rome claimed 
primacy.

	All along the history of the RCC there have been groups that 
have left. You presume that they left because they differed first, and 
so had to leave. The opposite seems to be true. Recently (late 1800's)
there was a group known as the Old Catholics that were outraged when 
the pronouncement came that the pope was infallible when speaking ex 
cathedra. They perceived that the RCC had moved from a previous 
position, and they stayed with that previous position; but in essence 
they formed a new denomination to do that.

	In the Great Schism we had the bishop of Rome attempting to be 
recognized as first among equals. This was never a precedent. Yet by 
clinging to a position that was contrary to Rome, a new denomination 
was created -- created not for new ideas, but due to the fact that 
Rome had moved from apostolic Christianity.

>   As far as being "an organization," the Church has always been a
>hierarchy.  To say otherwise is to ignore the Bible.  Even Saul, who
>was converted by the Lord Himself, was told to go to join the Church
>authorities.  If the "organized" Church is not mandated by Christ,
>then Ananias would not have been sent to lay hands on Saul/Paul to
>give him the Holy Spirit. 

	The early organization was made up of those that were of the 
organism, the church. It was not by joining an organization that one 
become a part of the body. One was a part of the body by regeneration, 
and that group of born-again people were collectively the organization 
of the church. The organization did not define the organism, rather it 
was the other way around...


 en agape,
 Bob 
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