HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: wiegand@rtsg.mot.com (Robert Wiegand)
Subject: Re: Boycotting the Vote
Reply-To: motcid!wiegand@uunet.uu.net
Organization: Motorola Inc., Cellular Infrastructure Group
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 17:19:59 GMT

edp@math.zk3.dec.com (Eric Postpischil) writes:

>Please do not repeat yourself without adding some explanation.  I
>thought I had made clear the distinction between "authority" and
>"power".  It is perfectly clear to me that if somebody does not vote, a
>candidate WILL be elected and that candidate WILL exercise power over
>the non-voter.  Do you understand that I understand that?  Now, I am
>using the word "power" in the sense that the elected candidate does
>exercise power over the non-voter.  But when I use the word "authority",
>I mean the _consent_ of the person to be governed.  A person grants
>authority to a person by _consenting_ to be governed by them. 
>Specifically, I mean voluntary consent -- it cannot be taken
>involuntary.  The elected candidate exercises power, but they do so
>without the voluntary consent of the non-voter.  They do not, by the
>meaning I have given, have authority to exercise power.

You are just playing with words here. Once a person is elected they
have the full power of that office to do with as they please.
Whether you voted for them or not has no effect on what they are allowed
to do. The only difference is inside your head.


-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Robert Wiegand - Motorola Inc.
motcid!wiegand@uunet.uu.net            uunet!motcid!wiegand
Disclamer: I didn't do it - I was somewhere else at the time.
From: sonic@cray.com (Curtis L. Swanson)
Subject: Re: Intelligence
Organization: Cray Research, Inc.
Date: 13 Oct 92 18:59:59 CDT

GMS writes:

~In article <1992Oct12.142212.9906@walter.cray.com> sonic@cray.com
~(Curtis L. Swanson) writes:
~>
~>Quite a lot, I would guess.  I spent a lot of time and anguish examining
~>my likes/dislikes and beliefs/disbeliefs recently to relearn who I was
~>and WHY I was me.  It took a huge amount of effort to do.  Most people
~>don't want to challenge their beliefs like that - so much easier to not
~>challenge them.
~>
~
~I'll bet that was very enlightening.  It's kind of too bad that lots
~of people deny themselves this experience.  Examining one's beliefs
~can not only be empowering, but entertaining.  It's a real source of
~comedy to laugh at yourself when you find yourself doing something
~for an illogical reason.

Twas.  I recommend that everybody do it at least once.  Can also be
embarrassing depending upon your personality.

~Personally, the fact that we are filled with lots of information
~and memories that are plain false smacks of Bladerunner and Total
~Recall, and I find it completely fascinating.  Consider that the
~world in our heads really doesn't exist.  Think how uncomfortable
~that would make most people if they realized this.  Brings new
~meaning to the phrase, "Perception is Reality."
~
~GMS
 
Yup.  I like to quote the rock group Loverboy: "There's three sides to 
every story.  There's your side and my side and then there's the truth."

***  Curt Swanson  ***  sonic@romulus.cray.com  ***  IOTTMCO  *********
HOME:n - That mythical place where you can go and relax.......
I'd rather be in a coma.........
From: sonic@cray.com (Curtis L. Swanson)
Subject: Re: Cover of the Bulletin
Date: 7 Oct 92 16:44:24 CDT

randall@riffraff.slc.mentorg.com (Randall S. Krebs) asks:

*Is there any point to the pictures that appear on the cover of the
*Mensa Bulletin?  I'm a relative newbie.  I've spent several minutes
*attempting to uncover the relevance of the cover picture to any one
*of the articles in the July/August, September, and the October issue.
*
*What am I missing?

Nothing.  They stopped trying to have the cover relate to the current "theme" 
of Bulletin a while ago.

*randall.


***  Curt Swanson  ***  sonic@romulus.cray.com  ***  IOTTMCO  *********
HOME:n - That mythical place where you can go and relax.......
I'd rather be in a coma.........
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: sonic@cray.com (Curtis L. Swanson)
Subject: Re: Summarizing the boycott (was Re: Boycotting the Vote)
Organization: Cray Research, Inc.
Date: 15 Oct 92 23:43:56 CDT

Dave Aronson writes:

~sonic@cray.com (Curtis L. Swanson) writes:
~
~ CLS> Point to MS, in case anybody is scoring.
~
~Not as often as I'd like to, and what's that got to do with pointing to Mike
~anyway?  Do people often look for him after scoring?

No, I just thought that I'd get people to move their arms trying to point
to Mike, thereby generating an extra 1.2 mph breeze nationwide to readjust
the jet stream and boost west coast wind-power production.  This would
shift world-wide energy consumption to the agricultural and fitness 
industries due to this rampant arm-waving.  With the global economy thus 
hopelessly skewed, the USA would be poised to capture the global market
for sweatbands.

Go USA.

***  Curt Swanson  ***  sonic@romulus.cray.com  ***  IOTTMCO  *********
HOME:n - That mythical place where you can go and relax.......
I'd rather be in a coma.........
From: mike_steiner@qm.claris.com (Mike Steiner)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: Meaning of Intelligence
Date: 8 Oct 92 18:22:05 GMT
Followup-To: rec.org.mensa

In article <1992Oct7.155634.14247@engage.pko.dec.com>,
moroney@ramblr.enet.dec.com wrote:
> 
> In article <15259@claris.com>, mike_steiner@qm.claris.com (Mike Steiner) writes:
> |> In article <1992Oct02.161031.15798@bnr.ca>, radams@BNR.CA (Rodney Adams) writes:

[Tai stuff omitted]

> |> > Need I say more?
> |> 
> |> Do you mean that you actually clutter up your disks with his garbage?
> 
> I work for a Diagnostics Engineering group and part of our work is to design
> tests for computer equipment and examine failure modes.  We have found that Tai
> postings are extremely effective at stress-testing disks and other mass-storage
> media.  We believe that filling disks with such postings actually make the disk
> feel it is being totally wasted, so it actually tends to give up the will to
> keep operating, allowing problems to show up.  It is rather fortunate that we
> get such postings for free, as it has been estimated that it would take several
> person-months to create an ASCII pattern that's equally stressful.  Before Tai,
> the best ASCII pattern we had was the phrase "President Quayle" repeated until
> it filled the disk.
> 
> -Mike

I see.  that makes about as much sense, and probably more, than what Tai
has been posting here.

+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Now that I have a reader that can do .sigs, I can't think of a witty |
|one to put here, so I won't.  All normal disclaimers apply.          |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: ecsd@tfs.com (Eric C. S. Dynamic)
Subject: Re: The An-Tai conspiracy game
Organization: TRW Financial Systems
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 09:23:04 GMT

cjdcosta@eos.ncsu.edu (CHRISTOPHER J DCOSTA) writes:
>
>Dave.Aronson@p11.f120.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Dave Aronson) writes:
>>Holy wasted bandwidth, Batman!  That's going to result in several sets of
>>signatures floating around, as people "reply" to different versions.  

"Holy wasted bandwidth, Batman", that's cute.

>Maybe you're right, but it's not any more waste than the tired discredited 
>arguments that the Tai keeps cycling through ROM, and the endless rebuttals
>from the newer posters. 
>
>The more sets of signatures floating around, the better, IMO. And it's fairly
>factual and flame-free.

>>like a FAQ list.  You may add my name to the list as:
>>           Dave Aronson (Dave.Aronson@blkcat.fidonet.org)
>Guess that'll work too, if Eric doesn't mind investing the time and effort.

Oh fine. Consider it done. Prolly should just email your assent to ecsd@tfs.com.
And not waste more holy bandwidth. (Ommmmm -- Ommmmm -- Ommmmm)

Hmm. If you're wondering why I'm irritable, it's because I'm straight.
(Hey - we can fix that!)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: wiegand@rtsg.mot.com (Robert Wiegand)
Subject: Re: Nazi caterpillars from Venus
Reply-To: motcid!wiegand@uunet.uu.net
Organization: Motorola Inc., Cellular Infrastructure Group
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1992 14:37:18 GMT

welchb@woods.ulowell.edu writes:

>Another aspect I encounter is that ascii is different than human expression.
>We take face-to-face communication so much for granted, that we presume
>(in scores of ways) that the other person is reading into the communication
>what we want to put into it.  We make tons of assumptions about tone of voice, 
>facial expressions, speed of delivery, accent, known background of the 
>recipient, etc.  Then we wonder why someone gets mad, or misinterprets
>what is "perfectly obvious" to us about what the words meant.

This is very true. However, there are some ways to compensate. If you
read the posts from people who have been doing this for a while you
see lots of ways people use to improve communication. You can *accent*
some words, use CAPS for emphasis, and even use those silly smileys :)

Computer communication has modified the English language to improve
communication when you can't be face to face.


-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Robert Wiegand - Motorola Inc.
motcid!wiegand@uunet.uu.net            uunet!motcid!wiegand
Disclamer: I didn't do it - I was somewhere else at the time.
From: sonic@cray.com (Curtis L. Swanson)
Subject: Boycotting Eric.   
Organization: Cray Research, Inc.
Date: 14 Oct 92 13:16:31 CDT

No, I do not mean to insult Eric, just get a little attention.  As GMS has
pointed out, the statement "the government will eventually come crashing
down around their ears." was made in the original post, not by Eric.  I am
sorry for attributing that to Eric.  Also, in my summary, I incorrectly named
Mike Moroney "Mark Moroney."  Again, my apologies.

Now, as for the rest of the debate going back and forth.  GMS touched upon
this a little in his last post but I'd like to setate it slightly.  Eric,
it seems to me that you equate 'not voting' with 'doing something else.'
What a lot of people were saying back to you and the original poster was 
that 'not voting,' in and of itself, does nothing worthwhile.  You responded
saying that you can do many things other than vote which are worthwhile, 
which is totally correct and beside the original point.  You also said that

"When many people do stop voting, that is a message.  That message is not
that people are discontent; we already hear that message.  Rather, the
message is that they are so discontent, they are NOT satisfied with
continued voting for the same old candidates -- they are now ready for
change."

However, while not voting does send a message, you cannot assume that it is
the message you detailed above.  I may have not voted because:

I forgot.
I had an emergency.
I got sick.
I had an accident and was unable to get to the voting booth.
Etc, etc.

Without me saying why I did not vote, nobody worth voting for could assume
any message from me.  They could only wonder.  If I back up 'not voting' 
(or voting) with action to change the system, then everyone can see exactly
what I mean by my actions.

One last point, which was addressed by GMS earlier and Mike Moroney comments:

"I understand fine.  There are 3 possibilities.
1) You vote for candidate X and Candidate X wins.  X has the power and
   authority to govern you.
2) You vote against candidate X, yet X wins.  X has the power but not the
   authority to govern you.
3) You don't vote, Candidate X wins.  By voluntarily not voting, you voluntarily
   granted to those who do vote the authority to choose a leader for you.  They
   chose X.  X has the power and authority to govern you, as you granted the
   authority to others who chose X as a leader."

What is the point about X not having the 'authority' to govern you but has the 
power to regardless?  You have said 'ethics' is the point.  But, if we had
a government that actually only governed those people that voted for it (down
to "the laws passed by this senator only applies to people who voted for him"),
the USA would disintigrate much more quickly than if everybody (and I mean
everybody) stopped voting.  In light of this, it would be unethical for X to
not govern you because the alternative is anarchy.

***  Curt Swanson  ***  sonic@romulus.cray.com  ***  IOTTMCO  *********
HOME:n - That mythical place where you can go and relax.......
I'd rather be in a coma.........
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: gmark@cbnewse.cb.att.com (gilbert.m.stewart)
Subject: Re: The Providence of Astrology
Organization: AT&T
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 16:31:24 GMT

In article <1992Oct7.050300.24895@tfs.com> ecsd@tfs.com (Eric C. S. Dynamic) writes:
>Grady McMurtry said, "If you can't drive a car while tripping, you don't
>belong in the O.T.O." - well, I passed that test before I ever heard of it.
>Drugs: the emotional frame changes, is all.

I, like many other people, am very skeptical regarding drugs and
motor vehicles.  Most folks can't drive sober, either.  But they're
not aware of this.
>
>ecsd:
>>I missed some earlier mail, have to go back and look - GMS wanted to know
>>what happened in soc.bi - I'll get to that. rec.nude is getting testy too,
>
>GMS:
>>You are one mischievous SOB.  Anything in alt.simpsons?  soc.siamese.twins?
>
>I've dabbled in rec.nude, soc.bi, soc.men, soc.women, soc.feminism (except I
>can't post there, as Muffy is one of the moderators and she & I are - shall

How cute.  soc.feminism is moderated by a "Muffy".  Shades of "Heathers".

>I say - not on freindly terms), alt.feminism, alt.sex, alt.astrology, alt.rave,
>alt.drugs. Kinda confirms my mini-self-chart-reading, huh?
>
>I'll post the "soc.bi" story maybe this weekend, after I discharge my god-

Excellent.  Keep us up on rec.nude, too.  It's much more bandwidth
effective than trying to go through 1000 articles in other groups to
get a particular exchange.

>damned social obligations, to wit Karleen's chart at the very least. The poor
>girl is hanging on a remark in private mail, she wonders what can I possibly
>have to say? So I want to get to it quickly, and - I have *work* to do to
>*eat*, irritating . . .
>
>ecsd:
>>Now, now, let's all be nice . . .
>
>GMS:
>>Now, what's that quote about "Monkeys flying out of your butt..."?
>
>I wouldn't know. I am too young to be allowed to read things like that.
>Never liked scatological images that much either . . .
>*sigh* so where does it come from, and what does it mean?

Wayne's World.  Skeptical response:  "Sure.  I believe that.  And
monkey's will fly out of my butt!"

GMS


Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: gmark@cbnewse.cb.att.com (gilbert.m.stewart)
Subject: Re: Intelligence
Organization: AT&T
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1992 22:43:27 GMT

In article <1992Oct12.142212.9906@walter.cray.com> sonic@cray.com (Curtis L. Swanson) writes:
>
>Quite a lot, I would guess.  I spent a lot of time and anguish examining
>my likes/dislikes and beliefs/disbeliefs recently to relearn who I was
>and WHY I was me.  It took a huge amount of effort to do.  Most people
>don't want to challenge their beliefs like that - so much easier to not
>challenge them.
>

I'll bet that was very enlightening.  It's kind of too bad that lots
of people deny themselves this experience.  Examining one's beliefs
can not only be empowering, but entertaining.  It's a real source of
comedy to laugh at yourself when you find yourself doing something
for an illogical reason.  

>Well said.  BTW, can you cite any books that could give me a more complete
>background on intelligence?  I hate to be ignorant during a good 
>conversation.
>

Actually, I don't have any single source for any of that information.
The first time I heard about the corpus callosum experiments was on
a PBS show about 20 or so years ago, then again in a film I saw in
college.  The book I read most recently that cited it was "Drawing
on the Right Side of the Brain," which dealt with putting yourself
in a receptive state to improve your drawing ability.  Holographic
memory storage was discussed by a guy giving a presentation at an
RG about 20 years ago, most of which was rubbish, but the memory
bit was confirmed in a study published in Science News a few years
ago, and an article I read in Popular Science about 15 years ago.

Personally, the fact that we are filled with lots of information
and memories that are plain false smacks of Bladerunner and Total
Recall, and I find it completely fascinating.  Consider that the
world in our heads really doesn't exist.  Think how uncomfortable
that would make most people if they realized this.  Brings new
meaning to the phrase, "Perception is Reality."

GMS
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: muchow@venus.iex.com (Don Muchow)
Subject: Nazi caterpillars from Venus
Organization: iex
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 18:44:28 GMT



More in the vein of Muchow D About Nothing....

I recently interfaced with an esteemed member of our "snotty, useless
social club" upon the topic of "always offending someone", the little
known corollary to the axiom "You can please all of the people some of
the time", etc.

I posit that no matter what the topic of a thread is, someone out there
will either find it too irresistable to avoid replying with nonsense, or
will be genuinely offended at a more or less benign remark.  Granting for
the moment that the concept of "benign" represents a spectrum of perceptions
rather than absolute truth (an ill-defined concept itself), the thought rests
as it is.

For instance, if I were to say that "Nazi caterpillars from Venus" attacked
me in my sleep last night, my best guess is that many replies would fall
somewhere in one of the following classes:

Lessons on entomology
Lessons on astronomy
Lessons on the role of National Socialism in 20th centurn American History
Personal Attacks
Obtuse remarks
Unnecessarily focused dissections of the grammatical structure of the posting
Discussions of Jung, Freud, et al, on the meaning of dreams
MORE comments about whether Mensa serves a real purpose
Comments about my comment about replying with nonsense

Those were just the first ones I thought of.  I hope the example is ridiculous
enough to provoke (if at all) a more interesting response.

Not that I mind replies on any of the above topics; what I am concerned with
is not dialogue but rather diatribe.  People with axes to grind pouring
ardorously every summonable ounce of conviction into, as my colleague put it,
"gentle poking in the chest with a finger", or words to that effect.

Stuff like Mr./Dr./Sir Tai's postings lead me to believe that there are all
too many of us out there who take seriously what was meant in fun.

One gift I believe most of us (should) have in Mensa is an enlightened sense
of humor and firm self-confidence.  For many of us, making it into Mensa should
have removed some of those doubts.

By the way, I'm tired of Smurf logic problems!

-Don Muchow
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: crossgl@infonode.ingr.com (Gordon Cross)
Subject: Re: Perot and trust
Organization: Intergraph Corporation, Huntsville, AL.
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 13:45:54 GMT

In article <1992Oct12.210123.8724@galileo.cc.rochester.edu> as010b@uhura.cc.rochester.edu (andrew david simchik) writes:

>	Mind you, this is the average voter we are discussing.  The
>*intelligent* voter will vote for Clinton. :)

No, the *intelligent* voter will choose Marrou ...

:-)  :-)  :-)
-- 

Gordon Cross          UUCP:     uunet!ingr!infonode!crossgl   "all opinions are
111 Westminister Way  INTERNET: crossgl@infonode.ingr.com    mine and not those
Madison, AL 35758     MA BELL:  (205) 730-7842               of my employer."
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: crawdad@fncent (Matt Crawford)
Subject: Re: Doubters Of Astrology
Organization: FERMILAB, Batavia, IL
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 21:47:47 GMT

>>Young-Kyu Yoo:
>>>The position that "astrology does NOT work" is as much an unsupported
>>>position (logically, scientifically) as the assertion, without proof, that
>>>it does.
>>
>Matt Crawford writes:
>>That just isn't true.  A well-informed skeptic can cite a great many
>>statistically valid tests which produced null results.

Young-Kyu Yoo:
>Take care in reading, please.  My remark concerned those who held 
>opinions without informed knowledge, i.e., "without proof."  

I did take care in reading, but I only read what you wrote.  I didn't
read your mind.  If you want me to assume that what you write isn't
necessarily what you mean, I can't think why you're writing at all.
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: dobbs@ast.saic.com (Lynn Dobbs)
Subject: Re: Part of a reply to Rodney - more later re: the dark side
Keywords: way long
Organization: SAIC
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 22:06:44 GMT

In article <1992Oct7.092950.13076@tfs.com> ecsd@tfs.com (Eric C. S. Dynamic) writes:
>
>... Suffice it to say a few words. (1) Society is not structured to fulfill
>the needs of the individual, in fact rather the reverse. (2) The 'big three'
>religions, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, as 'authorized' by their
>institutions, and practiced by their adherents, reflect neither spiritual
>reality, nor human reality. (3) The vast majority of people are consumers
>...

OXYMORON ALERT --- OXYMORON ALERT --- OXYMORON ALERT --- OXYMORON ALERT

    ... spiritual reality ....

OXYMORON ALERT --- OXYMORON ALERT --- OXYMORON ALERT --- OXYMORON ALERT
From: gmark@cbnewse.cb.att.com (gilbert.m.stewart)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: Part of a reply to Rodney - more later re: the dark side
Keywords: way long
Date: 7 Oct 92 17:28:19 GMT
Article-I.D.: cbnewse.1992Oct7.172819.8088
Organization: AT&T

In article <1992Oct7.092950.13076@tfs.com> ecsd@tfs.com (Eric C. S. Dynamic) writes:
>"Rodney Adams" <RADAMS@BNR.CA> writes [in shuffled order]:
>>As I said, this is not the thread I intended to pursue.  I was primarily
>>interested in seeing how Eric thinks we should go about ridding the ills
>>of our society.  How about it, Eric?
>
>Rodney - and the others in this thread - I'm sorry, I'm up to my eyeballs
>in backlog. (feels guilty hacking this now too.)

[ very long discussion deleted ]

Very interesting, complete, and logical.  On both your counts.
Just one minor point to make:

>The same thing goes for abortion: freedom of choice is the only way.
>Drugs, Sex, Culture: freedom of choice is the only way.
>THE OPEN AVAILABILITY OF ALL OPTIONS IS THE ONLY WAY.  <== way radical idea!!

I have to point out that the abortion issue is often stated in a
very simplistic and idealistic way.

At the risk of pointing out the obvious, the Pro-Choice people argue that
a woman has a right as to how to treat her own body.  This sounds right.
The Pro-Life people argue that the child has a right to its own life.
This sounds right as well.

Until someone:

1) can logically prove a human being has any rights at all, and especially
a right to life,

2) can come up with a sufficient definition of just what a human being is,

3) and can find a way to weigh the relative values of two human beings,

the abortion issue will not be resolved.  Certainly there are assumptions
made by both sides regarding right to life, right to body, etc., etc.,
but these are ASSUMPTIONS.  They may be good assumptions, wonderful
assumptions, practical assumptions, but they are ASSUMPTIONS.

The best one can hope is that there are eventually devised work-arounds
or compromises based upon special circumstances.  These assumptions
will never be proven.  They are based upon subjective criteria and
feelings and faith.  The most pathetic part of the debate is the
illogical ill-will and violence that is expended on an issue that
cannot be solved, only worked around.


GMS