From: jrr@locus.com (Jefery Roberts)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: The rec.arts.{comics.}manga wars continue
Date: 11 Apr 92 05:38:35 GMT
Organization: Locus Computing Corp, Los Angeles

Lazlo (lazlo@triton.unm.edu) writes:
> What do you think I've been spending the last three days trying to do?
> What do I have to do, draw you a *picture*?
> 		 ________________________________________
> 		|                                        |
> 		|       COMICS                           |
> 		|   ________________  ________________   |
> 		|  |                \/                |  |
> 		|  |    WESTERN     /\     MANGA      |  |
> 		|  |     COMICS    ( \)  (Eastern     |  |
> 		|  |                \/\    Comics)    |  |
> 		|  |________________/\_\______________|  |
> 		|_______________________\________________|
> 		                         \
> 					COMICS THAT DRAW FROM
> 					BOTH TRADITIONS

The problem with your diagram is that it can be relabelled this way:
		 ________________________________________
		|                                        |
		|       MANGA                            |
		|   ________________  ________________   |
		|  |                \/                |  |
		|  |     COMICS     /\    EASTERN     |  |
		|  |    (Western   ( \)     MANGA     |  |
		|  |      Manga)    \/\               |  |
		|  |________________/\_\______________|  |
		|_______________________\________________|
		                         \
					MANGA THAT DRAW FROM
					BOTH TRADITIONS

This diagram is just as accurate as yours, and, I think, shows why the
rec.arts.manga advocates are so adamant in their objections to 
rec.arts.comics.manga.  Your apparently narrow definition of manga is a
perfect reflection of their apparently narrow definition of comics.

I am an infrequent poster to rec.arts.anime, a frequent lurker in
alt.manga, and an infrequent lurker in rec.arts.comics, which I
sometimes scan for anime or manga references, so I have some familiarity
with all of the groups.

I think that rec.arts.comics.manga is the most appropriate name for the
manga group for the following reasons:

	Manga are comics, just as comics are manga.  The rec.arts.comics
	hierarchy already exists, and the name is in English, so it
	doesn't suffer from the recognition problem that
	rec.arts.anime.animation would have had if rec.arts.animation
	had been put into a rec.arts.anime hierarchy.  That's why
	rec.arts.manga.comics is not a viable name for a western comics
	discussion group.  The problem would not be any implied
	inferiority of comics to manga, just the overwhelming mass of
	English speakers on the net.

	alt.manga never seems to discuss mainstream (Marvel, DC, etc.)
	western manga, only those influenced by eastern manga.  Since
	the word manga is more inclusive than the articles in the group
	would be, rec.arts.manga.eastern or rec.arts.comics.eastern
	would be more semantically correct names, but I hear no calls to
	expand the rec.arts.manga charter to include western manga that
	weren't inspired by eastern manga.  rec.arts.comics.manga is no
	worse a misnomer than rec.arts.manga.

	The lack of cross interest between rec.arts.comics and *.manga
	is a nonissue.  Manga discussion was not forced out of
	rec.arts.comics due to either irrelevance or antagonism.  It was
	a self imposed exile caused by the volume of traffic that manga
	fans found irrelevant.  rec.arts.anime was a more congenial
	place because the many cross-ties between manga and anime made
	rec.arts.anime readers tolerant of the (unsanctioned by the
	charter) manga discussion and, for the same reason, a larger
	portion of the non-manga discussion was of interest to manga
	fans.  Still the manga fans didn't feel completely at home, and
	alt.manga was born.  rec.arts.comics.manga is as completely
	independent a group as rec.arts.manga, as far not having to wade
	through articles on western comics is concerned.  The charter
	for rec.arts.comics clearly includes the topics currently
	discussed in alt.manga.  Why is being forced into a subgroup due
	to the volume of irrelevant postings in the main group so
	onerous that people are willing to risk the creation of any
	group at all, just to avoid that possibility?

I'll probably vote for the group, no matter what it's named, but if the
new group is defeated due to dissention over the name, I think that the
die hards will have gotten what they deserved, and the people who can't
get alt.manga will be those who will suffer. 

Jefery Roberts		Locus Computing Corporation		jrr@locus.com