From: acsormd@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Randall Desmond)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: A Reply to "Sources of 'Real' Atheism"
Date: 8 Nov 92 19:34:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41


	In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful...

There was a post a while ago entitled "Sources of 'Real' Atheism" which I
would like to discuss. It is the "5 main sources of contemporary atheism"
included in that post, and outlined below, that will be shown obscure to
an ideological concept of atheism, if not completely wrong.

"1. Religion demands too little. There is no rigorous discipline, morally
or rationally."

This statement can be qualified to be true for some religions. However
it neglects the fact that atheism itself demands nothing and is not defined 
by rigorous discipline, morallity, or rationality.

As an adherent to any faith would hold their faith to be true, I am no
different. The point I would like to make is that if this is really a
source of contemporary belief in general, Islam far outweighs atheism 
on this point.

Without illustration, I couldn't make this point. Therefore let me just touch
on some basics of how we can see Islam fulfilling this "requirement" of
validity (i.e. according to the atheist).

Islam demands 5 formal Salah (prayers) a day at different intervals of
the day with intense concentration. In the month of Ramadan, according to 
the Islamic calendar, muslims must fast from sun-up to sun-down. These two 
practices indeed require discipline. There are rights of Allah (God)
rights of muslims, neighbors, relatives, and humanity (not necessarily in
that order). There are also personal rights and responsibilities. All
these rights are described in full through Islam (which means submission)
and must be strived for. What these rights entail is not the point of this 
post. We are only illustrating the relevence of Islam to the above point.

The rationality of this discipline can be viewed as two-fold; joining the 
relationship with the Creator and creating awareness of the human condition.
Please keep in mind we are not discussing the existence of the Creator, only
the disciplinary position of the religion called Islam.

"2. ....<stuff deleted leading to the two points below>...
	a. Religion is an excape from responsibility for our own
	   self-creation, value judgements, and so destroys freedom,
	   reason, and dignity <Sarte-Cumus>
	b. Religion is pathological, the sign of a sick person ...<Freud>"

Wrong. It is hard to counter the lack of examples given, but I'll try.

Without knowing if the term "self-creation" refers to our actual physical
evolution or our intellectual evolution (or what could really be counter-
evolution of either of these), I will assume the author meant intellectual 
evolution/creation (as physical creation of ouselves is a bit too much for 
any rational person to ask for - except for some).

Let me say that while this point may apply to some religions and/or their
implimentors, there is nothing in atheism which holds man responsible
for his own "self-creation and value judgements." And while there may be 
a supposed "freedom, reason, and dignity" in a particular atheist's mind,
atheism in and of itself does not dictate these qualities at all.

As mentioned above, we have rights. But we also have responsibilities, and
every other human has rights and responsibilities on us. Suffice it to 
say that Islam is not an escape. Islam is actually the commitment one makes
to fulfill these duties and rights. 

On the point addressing religion as a sign of a sick person. Who is 
more sick the one who believes something or the one who defines his
belief on a counter belief of the one who holds a belief?

"3. Theistic religions represent an outmoded world-view which is no longer
valid. Science has made the 'God hypothesis' obsolete <Laplace-positivist>"

How?

I think the Qur'an speaks for itself when it addresses science through it's
verses. Some of these points are:

	1. Palestine as the lowest geographical point on earth (i.e. landwise)
	2. method of milk production in a cow
	3. the dominant femanine nature of the bee community
	4. the intricate communication of the ant community
	5. the barrier between salt and sea water
	6. the expansion of the universe
	7. developement of embryo in womb
	8. creation of heavens and earth
	9. function of mountains on the earths crust
	10. the roundness of the earth
	(there are more but they slip my mind)
	(**If anyone wants the verses, let me know.)

Islam encourages education (psst. even science) :)
Guess where the words "alamanc", "algebra", and "alkali" come from?
Who do you think started the development of modern science? Any
medical student out there know about the muslim contrabutions to medicine?
Suffice it to say that Europe's Dark Ages were a time of intellectual
growth in the Islamic world.

"4. Religious assertions are *unintelligible* or "cognitively meaningless",
more emotional or ideological than factual in content. <Ayre-Edwards>"

Which ones?

"5. Theism is contradictory and internally incoherent--the problem of evil,
incoherent descriptions of divine attributes <Flew-Kenny>"

I would appreciate an explanation of what is meant here, is it in the post of 
"The Incoherence of Theism"? If so, could someone either post or mail me
the other two portions of the original 3 part post. I only obtained the 
first post "Sources of 'Real' Atheism". Thank you in advanced.

All these points from "Sources of 'Real' Atheism" (like the term atheism 
itself) define this belief-of-non-belief in terms of the theists. I have never 
heard of any theist define their religion in terms of unbelief (only defining 
what is wrong after the articles of faith are established).

I find all the above points (with the exceptions of the unexpounded points)
to fail the "ideology" of atheism and actually support Islam.

Ismail