From: aryeh@cash.ucsc.edu (Aryeh Friedman)
Newsgroups: alt.business.multi-level
Subject: Re: AMWAY
Date: 4 Sep 1992 05:27:35 GMT
Organization: Marsnet
NNTP-Posting-Host: cash.ucsc.edu

In article <97lnw#r.noring@netcom.com> noring@netcom.com (Jon Noring) writes:
>Congratulations!
>
>This is the most arrogant, most spiteful, most hate filled anti-MLM post I
>have ever encountered, using half-truths, misinterpretations, incorrect
>assumptions, possibly lies, ...   Anyway, Mr. Friedman wins first prize
>which is a three minute visit to Peter Island.

	Thanks for the high praise ;-)  If what I said was misrepesantrion
why does the DA and BBB in almost every major city have a special unit to
look into to MLM scams.  Not to mention the AG of all 50 states.  Also quick
point if your going to name me by name just say Aryeh not Mr. Friedman makes 
it look too formal.

>Normally, I sit on my hands on such posts, but as you can see I'm having
>trouble sitting this one out.  It hit a raw nerve and entrepreneurs such
>as myself cannot have our reputations sullied by non-entrepreneurs such
>as Mr. Friedman.  half :^)

If you call your self a entreprenuer I am a monkey!! All you are is a 
independant subcontracter, basically and employee.  Like when I tutored
CS under contract from my college and got paid by them but was a independ 
contractor.  All MLM does is put the risk where it shouldn't be, i.e. the
employee.

>Anyway, Mr. Friedman, you basically called me (indirectly) a scum-sucking
>scamster, since I have already built a fairly profitable organization in MLM
>(Amway, just so you know), with 150 people in my organization (you'd call
>them suckers) and have been in the business for over four years.  In your

	Your employees or your distraputors if they are distrubutors then why
do they have to pay anymore then just the normal cost of wholesale purchasing
also from what I have seen they have sign contracts not to carry competiator
products and go by the price set by the higher ups.  If this is true your
in violation of anti-trust laws.

>words, I am the one who is taking advantage of all of these poor, innocent
>people.  Of course, I sit home and rake in all of this money while all of my
>downline (a.k.a suckers) get stuck with nothing, or even less than that.  And
>worse yet, I have them so programmed that they willingly renew their membership
>year after year without me even talking to them!  And of course for this I
>deserve to die a slow, painful and dishonorable death for this inhumane,
>unethical, immoral endeavour that is destroying society, enslaving many good
>people, as well as adversely affecting TraditionalFamilyValues.

It is unethical to pay people like independant business people then treat
then like empolyees you can't have it both ways.  Besides where is the
security they get as employees, of course you have fixed pay then.  If
they are truelly independant sales people they should enjoy all the benefits
of running there own company not all the risk and almost none of the benefits.

>Just so you know, Mr. Friedman, I spent three months carefully analyzing
>this business from all aspects, with special emphasis on the ethics of
>the business.  When I first heard the plan from my sponsor, I told her
>that I could not get involved in anything that is immoral, unethical, or
>takes advantage unfairly of other people.  This was THE most important thing

I accept that you did reseach but real businesses don't have sponsor's they have
suppliers.  Only 12 step programs have sponpors.  Now if the "sponsor" invested
then be a investor and sponsor by default.

>to me just as it is to you.  I analyzed this business the way any business
>should be analyzed.  J. Paul Getty, the famous billionaire businessman, stated
>it bluntly when he said that it is essentially immoral for a person to make a
>decision on anything concerning business and/or money until you get at least
>70% of all the facts that are available about that endeavour.  I got the 70%

Getty earned it the old fasten way not by scamming people though!

>and more of the facts about MLM in my three month analysis, with particular
>emphasis on the ethics and morality of it.  Thus, I feel good about my
>decision to pursue Network Marketing and still do after four years.  When
>pursued properly, it is a very ethical and moral business.  Since you have

Is it really moral to live off the work of those under you when they are
not your employees!!!

>come to a radically different conclusion, I can only conclude that you did
>not get the 70%+ of the facts - thus you fall under J. Paul Getty's judgement,
>and remember he proved himself as one of the most successful businessman of
>the 20th century.  By following his example and teaching you will avoid

BULL SHIT!!!!! one of my former roomates was into MLM and we held this 
arguement a number of times and he polled out "facts" to support his claims when
I looked into the sources of these "facts" they turned out to come from the 
recruitment material of his MLM firm.

>making such mistakes in judgement in the future, and I do see a bright future
>for your new businesses because of your interest in maintaining ethics and
>integrity.

Stop giving lib service to ethics and start living up to if you can prove your
claims for MLM and I might shut up.

>Just so you know, Mr. Friedman, I plan to start other businesses besides
>my MLM once I develop an adequate cash flow.  Most of these ideas for
>business endeavours are what you would call start-up companies, where
>I'll have to write up a business plan, capitalize it, and put in the long
>hours of getting it going.  So I understand entrepreneurship, it runs in

Great tring to turn dirty money into clean money.

>my family (e.g., my brother is a millionaire, having started three businesses,
>so I know what business is all about.)  And I would rate network marketing

Then follow in there foot steps and claiming that you are.

>with a legitimate company and product line (such as Amway) as THE FINEST
>BUSINESS CONCEPT AVAILABLE TODAY, BAR NONE (the words of John Sestina, the
>nation's top Certified Financial Planner who specialized in analyzing new
>business start-ups).  If you disagree with this statement, let's talk about

Ok if some can get him to say that on the net in a convening mannor I will
believe it.

>it rationally, and use hardcore business criteria, taught in any business
>school, for its evaluation.  I'll proudly compare network marketing
>line-by-line with any other entrepreneurial business, and it WILL win out
>in almost all criteria and categories that I can think of.

If you can prove this I will forgive anything ever said badlly about MLM I 
might even decide to use MLM for my own company.  But I highlly doubt it.

>Thus, if one's primary goal of getting into business is to develop, in a short
>timeframe (2-5 years), a permanent (willable) residual income with the

What do you anything create new, do you create new wealth (see note one for my 
def of this), and do you benefit the larger economy?  Since when was money
more importand then creating something you could call your own!!  Also if a
business doesn't break even in 2 years it is not a good bet, peroid.  So that
time frame is not a meaningful measure.

>obvious benefits, then that person would be utterly stupid for not picking
>(or at least seriously considering) network marketing as the vehicle to
>accomplish that.  Of course, there can be other primary motivations other

And not create anything new, add to the greater good, or do anything except
cootinue the old marketing practices the rest of the business community
left 20 years ago as not very good.

>than residual income, so the person may end up pursuing something other than
>network marketing.  In summary, network marketing is an excellent vehicle for
>those whose primary motivation is financial security for them and their family.

If you want fiancle security you should not be in business!!!!

>Anyway, Mr. Friedman, I respect your emphasis on business ethics and know
>that you will succeed in whatever you do because of that.  But, please, get
>70%+ of the facts first before jumping into any business - your evaluation
>of network marketing is totally incorrect - a legitimate MLM run according
>to accepted ethical guidelines is ethical, moral, honest, legal, and is
>beneficial to society and to those who work hard at it.  I do not expect you

How can it be benifcal to socity if it creates no wealth and creates nothing
new.

>to come around to my viewpoint, so the purpose of this "flame" is to make
>sure that other open-minded entrepreneurs who are "listening in", and who are
>presently contemplating pursuing a network marketing business, will not be
>dissuaded by the disinformation that you posted.


For the reasons I gave I hope they see it for the scam it is.

Note 1:  Real Wealth -- The creation of actual increases in the resources 
avaible to society.  Not the shifting of resources from one group to an 
other.