HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: brad@clarinet.com (Brad Templeton)
Subject: Re: List of voters in ESF award so far
Organization: ClariNet Communications Corp.
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 19:27:28 GMT

In article <Bs787H.1uF@cs.psu.edu> flee@cs.psu.edu (Felix Lee) writes:
>Here's a different reason for not voting.  Trying to rank, say,
>"Buffalo" v. "In the Late Cretaceous" is rather like trying to rank an
>apple v. an orange.  Which fruit do you prefer?  Which fruit is closer
>to the epitome of fruitiness?  Which fruit would you give an award to?

That's true of course in judging anything, and I'll admit, not everybody
likes to judge.  In some ways, the Hugo system, while more complex (in
that it asks you to make many decisions) at least doesn't force you to
pick just one.  Picking something second is almost as powerful as
picking it first.

I can understand the sentiment that perhaps awards are inappropriate or
should not be given, because it is hard to really judge what is best.

On the other hand, there's no question that some stuff is clearly better
than others.  And while the Hugo does not always pick the best story of
the year (Indeed, unless there's a majority on the first ballot, the winner
was not picked as best by a majority of the voters) I have found that
in at least 95% of cases the Hugo winner is definitely a worthwhile, and
often great read.   Which is better than a random pick in the bookstore.

There's also no question that many of the truly great stories have been
winners of the Hugo and Nebula, which indicates that it's working to
some reasonable extent.
-- 
Brad Templeton, ClariNet Communications Corp. -- Sunnyvale, CA 408/296-0366
From: feder@CALSHP.CALS.WISC.EDU
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re:  SF-LOVERS Digest   V17 #366
Date: 21 Jul 92 15:15:56 GMT

how do I unsubscribe this list?  help 
please respond to feder@calshp.cals.wisc.edu
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Iain Banks question
From: ecmtwhk@ccu1.aukuni.ac.nz (Thomas Koenig)
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 00:59:04 GMT
Organization: University of Auckland, New Zealand.

ekho.bbs@cybernet.cse.fau.edu writes:

>  On reading your postings on Iain's novels, I was intrigued enough to 
>order _Consider Phlebas_ from the bookstore.

So they've had one intended effect :-)

>The question that I have is 
>should I read any of his other novels first, or are they all seperate 
>stories in themselves?  

They are all separate stories, set against the same universe.
_Consider Phlebas_ is a good book to start with, since it has been
written to give some background about the Culture which is more or
less taken for granted, for example, in _Player of Games_.

>(Your descriptions faintly reminded me of the episode "Blake" in Blakes
>7 :-))))

What's that?


>             Yours in Time and Space,

>                 Ekho (Killer Queen, Dynamite with a Laser Beam)
-- 
Thomas Koenig, ecmtwhk@ccu1.aukuni.ac.nz, ib09@rz.uni-karlsruhe.de
The joy of engineering is to find a straight line on a double logarithmic
diagram.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: beede@sctc.com (Mike Beede)
Subject: Re: Errors in Covers (was Re: Hyperion covers)
Organization: SCTC
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1992 17:35:13 GMT

jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com (Jim Mann) writes:

>In article <1992Jul24.161156.29118@col.hp.com> lpj@col.hp.com (Laura  
>Johnson) writes:
>> 
>> Good God. This is appalling. I'd like to suggest that, as rec.arts.sf.*
>> posters discover such books, they prominently post the titles.  
>(_Friday_
>> and _The_Cat_Who_Walked_Through_Walls_ have been mentioned so far, I
>> believe.)
>> 
>> Then I'd like to suggest that rec.arts.sf.* readers (and their friends,
>> coworkers, etc.) boycott these books.
>
>I don't see the point of such a boycott. You are punishing
>an author for something that is completely out of his/her control.

Well, R.A.H. won't mind.  He might even get a kick out of it.

>And as for the
>publisher: what would you like them to do?  Remember that the
>purpose of the cover is to help sell the book.  Should they say
>to hell with sales and put on a cover that will hurt sales?  Should
>they perhaps not have any cover illustration at all?

The idea of a boycott is to kick someone in the sales, isn't it?  If
the function for Realistic vs. Bunkerized covers changes, then the
covers will change, even if the publishers have no principles bar the
profit motive.  

However, I don't think that such a boycott would work, since too few
people would participate to change the function.  Still, the cover
thing is a bit outrageous, and I think people want to feel like
they're doing something to rid the word of one little injustice.  I
can't find it in me to say that that's bad.

I find a more realistic reaction when I hear about something like this
is to repeat my mantra, ``all marketers are scum or broke,'' several
hundred times while watching my collection of McDonalds TV
commercials.  Bigoted covers on SF seem kind of pale and insubstantial
afterwards.

	Mike


-- 
Mike Beede         Secure Computing
beede@sctc.com     1210 W. County Rd E, Suite 100           
------------------ Arden Hills, MN  55112
                       (612) 482-7420
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,rec.arts.sf.science
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 10:05:00 -0400 
From: "Andrew C. Plotkin" <ap1i+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Keyes' "Flowers for Algernon"

Excerpts from netnews.rec.arts.sf.written: 28-Jul-92 Keyes' "Flowers for
Algernon" Steven Young@elec.uq.oz. (1273)

> Just re-read Daniel Keyes' "Flowers for Algernon" (1959?).
> (Do you hate 'Just read ..., and thought it was brilliant' posts?  Sorry)

> I can remember reading it years ago, but I think I read a condensed
> (short story/novella) version.  Could this be true?  The novel was much
> more satisfying.

Yes, it was first published (in _Astounding_? One of those 60's mags,
anyway) as a novella. The novel came later.

(And my father has an original copy of that mag, too... neat... It also
contains the first publication of one of McCaffrey's "Rowan" stories.)

--Z

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the borogoves..."
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: rafem@gvlf7-e.gvl.unisys.com (Ralph Marrone)
Subject: Re: Keyes' "Flowers for Algernon"
Organization: Unisys Defense Systems, Great Valley Labs, Paoli, Pa
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 11:38:41 GMT

In article <young.712301210@s1.elec.uq.oz.au> young@elec.uq.oz.au (Steven Young) writes:
>Just re-read Daniel Keyes' "Flowers for Algernon" (1959?).
>(Do you hate 'Just read ..., and thought it was brilliant' posts?  Sorry)
>
>I can remember reading it years ago, but I think I read a condensed
>(short story/novella) version.  Could this be true?  The novel was much
>more satisfying.
>

Your right, Steven, it was originally a short story.  Keyes eventually
expanded it to full novel length;  and if I'm not mistaken, it shared
the Hugo award with Frank Herbert's _Dune_.


>
>Real question is who is Daniel Keyes and what does/did he do
>professionally apart from write sf?  The book (and another I
>read ages ago on a multiple personality disorder case.  What was the
>title???) seemed very insightful from a psychologist/psychiatrist
>point of view, and from an academic research point of view.
>(Some brilliant subtext from the research point of view.)
>

This book's title is _The Minds of Billy Milligan_.


>The other question is: What else has Daniel Keyes written?
>

I know of at least two other books;  a novel entitled _The Touch_ (at
least I think that's the title) and a non-fiction book entitled
_Understanding Claudia_.



Regards,

Ralph
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: potter@csusac.ecs.csus.edu (Carl Kolchak)
Subject: Re: Keyes' "Flowers for Algernon"
Followup-To: alt.dev.null
Summary: *not* quite....
Keywords: time telescopes when you're far away from it
Organization: INS, Inc.
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 92 07:27:27 GMT

Ralph Marrone said:

> From: rafem@gvlf7-e.gvl.unisys.com (Ralph Marrone)
> Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
> Subject: Re: Keyes' "Flowers for Algernon"
> Date: 28 Jul 92 11:38:41 GMT
> Organization: Unisys Defense Systems, Great Valley Labs, Paoli, Pa
> 
> In <young.712301210@s1.elec.uq.oz.au>
>    young@elec.uq.oz.au (Steven Young) writes:
> > Just re-read Daniel Keyes' "Flowers for Algernon" (1959?).
> > (Do you hate 'Just read ..., and thought it was brilliant' posts?  Sorry)
> >
> > I can remember reading it years ago, but I think I read a condensed
> > (short story/novella) version.  Could this be true?  The novel was much
> > more satisfying.
>
> Your right, Steven, it was originally a short story.  Keyes eventually
  ^^^^
  Homonymic confusion.   I presume you are trying to say "You're right" 
  here, rather than refer to the rights of Steven.
  (It wasn't a short story, either.)

> expanded it to full novel length;  and if I'm not mistaken, it
> shared the Hugo award with Frank Herbert's _Dune_.

You are extremely mistaken in this assertion.

"FLOWERS FOR ALGERNON," in the novelette form (from the April '59
issue of F&SF) won "Best Novelette" at the 1960 WSF convention.
 
"DUNE" won "Best Novel" in 1966, a HALF-DOZEN years later, and 
the tie was with "AND CALL ME CONRAD" by Roger Zelazny; both 
writers went home grinning, with nice little model spaceships.

To the best of my knowledge, the novel version of F.F.A. 
never won any award.

<< material deleted >>
  
> This book's title is _The Minds of Billy Milligan_.
  
<< material deleted >>
  
> I know of at least two other books;  a novel entitled _The Touch_ (at
> least I think that's the title) and a non-fiction book entitled
> _Understanding Claudia_.

Thanks for the titles; didn't know them.

-- 
=======================================================================
||  "C" gains much of its vaunted efficiency by employing a very     ||
||  powerful pre-processor, normally referred to as a "programmer."  ||
||  rem: "Ph-nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn."       ||
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: sef@kithrup.COM (Sean Eric Fagan)
Subject: Re: andrew j. offutt
Organization: Kithrup Enterprises, Ltd.
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1992 05:02:33 GMT

In article <0095DF48.0C86FBE0.29243@cvax.ipfw.indiana.edu> murphy@CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU writes:
>Is there anything that he has done lately?

Not lately, but he also did _Rails Across the Galaxy_, with Lyon[s?]; it was
published as a serial in Analog, maybe ten years ago?

It was pretty good.  I enjoyed it so much, in fact, that I wrote my very
first letter to an author 8-).

-- 
Sean Eric Fagan  | "My psychiatrist says I have a messiah
sef@kithrup.COM  |  complex.  But I forgive him."
-----------------+              -- Jim Carrey
Any opinions expressed are my own, and generally unpopular with others.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: morrow@fnalo.fnal.gov (Jor-Elmo)
Subject: Re: "Buffalo" is SF? /Hugo nominated/ SF?!
Organization: Lara's Kandorian Take-Out
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 05:53:14 GMT
X-Posted-From: fnalo.fnal.gov
X-Posted-Through: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In article <1992Jul30.083944.18332@leland.Stanford.EDU>, lga@sandman.stanford.edu(Laurent Amon) writes:
> 	From the few posts on this subject, it seems that nobody saw 
> what I saw in that story. So is everybody missing the point or am I 
> completely off track?
> 
> <Spoilers ahead>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The whole point of this story is the parallel between the title and the 
> text. The characters are not almost caricatures, they *are* caricatures.
> And if they were not, the story would be very depressing indeed. It seems 
> to me that the major point of 'Late Cretaceous' is the parallel between
> what happens in the story, and what the archeology professor teaches: That 
> the dinosaurs became extincts because they could not adapt to a changing
> environment. And the story is about academics, a whole society set in their 
> ways and unable to change. They are not unwilling, they perfectly see the 
> problem, but they are incapable of mustering the will to do anything else 
> than being borne away, from one day to the next, on the wave of the
> present. 

	There's an additional piece of irony:  Some dinosaurs became birds.
I now have to change my ESF ballot.  ITLC just jumped ahead of "No Award".
-- 
"I'd like to interject a comment here: eeeeeekkkkkkkkk.  That's it." 
--Hatchetman

elmo (morrow@fnal.fnal.gov,morrow@physics.rice.edu)
From: O1DSH@VM1.CC.UAKRON.EDU (David Heck)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Elisabeth Vonarburg's _The Silent City_
Date: 27 Jul 92 13:42:19 GMT

I've read the cover blurb of this in the bookstore...has anyone read this
yet? It sounded interesting...just thought I'd test the waters first.

David
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: rice@ttd.teradyne.com
Subject: Re: space opera:  definition
Organization: Teradyne Inc., Telecommunications Division
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 92 23:45:52 GMT

In article <1992Jul22.202551.12327@organpipe.uug.arizona.edu>, dddawson@lpl.arizona.edu (Doug Dawson) writes:
> The classic definition of space opera that I always heard was that if
> you can replace the handweapons with six-shooters, the spaceships with
> horses, and the aliens with Indians and have something that makes sense
> as a Western, you've got a space opera.
> 
> (It'd be a _little_ more complicated than that, but not necessarily that
> much.)

AND "The good guy gets the girl".....

-- 
   John Rice        K9IJ     |  "Did I say that ?" I must have, but It was
                             |   MY opinion only, no one else's...Especially
                             |   Not my Employer's....
   rice@ttd.teradyne.com     |   Purveyor of Miracles,Magic and Sleight-of-hand
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Great SF Shorts
From: ecmtwhk@ccu1.aukuni.ac.nz (Thomas Koenig)
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 22:48:54 GMT
Organization: University of Auckland, New Zealand.

D.GEISLER@ACAD.SUFFOLK.EDU writes:

>I will be teaching a course in the Fall semester on science fiction,
>and I would like some help in choosing good examples of short fiction
>to have my students read.

>Ideally, such short fiction should be "science" fictional in nature;
>that is, it should not be from the fantasy end of the genre.  It can,
>however, be any sort of short story or brief novella from the science-
>oriented focus of speculative fiction.

One story which I can very much recommend is Niven's 'Unfinished Story #1'
which has most recently been published in 'Playgrounds of the Mind'.
Should get a very good laugh, at least, if your students know a bit about
the physical sciences.

I also recommend Niven's other short stories very much; check out the
collections 'Neutron Star', 'Tales of Known Space' and 'All the Myriad
Ways', plus the stories of Gil the ARM.

Asimov's robot stories are another good choice; the collections relevant
are 'I, Robot' and 'The Rest of the Robots'.
-- 
Thomas Koenig, ecmtwhk@ccu1.aukuni.ac.nz, ib09@rz.uni-karlsruhe.de
The joy of engineering is to find a straight line on a double logarithmic
diagram.
From: mkkuhner@phylo.genetics.washington.edu (Mary K. Kuhner)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: The Moat around God's Eye
Date: 25 Jul 92 16:12:20 GMT
Article-I.D.: u.1992Jul25.161220.15683
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle

In article <1992Jul24.164152.10280@wpi.WPI.EDU>, jsinger@ascoli.WPI.EDU (Joel Singer) writes:
>
>His last step is to impose the birth
> control hormonal shots for all other Masters except himself and direct, loyal
> progeny.  He's got the entire planet under his thumb, with control of the
> Warriors, mediators, and all masters.  Bingo.  Cycles broken.

I think this could happen, and would probably last for a generation,
maybe two.  Then there are succession wars among those 'loyal
offspring'.  That's what tends to happen on Earth when a dictator dies,
and Moties are even more aggressive.

There's also very strong incentive for Moties elsewhere to conspire
against him, and/or plot revolution.  After all, their right to bear
children has been taken away by a dictator!  Humans would revolt, and
Moties are at least as parental.

It doesn't break the cycles; at best it delays them for a few
generations.  Setting up an immortal dictatorship is a very difficult
proposition indeed.  The technological edge gained by hiding out during
a crash may help you deal with revolution, but it's not enough to stop
succession wars.

Mary Kuhner mkkuhner@genetics.washington.edu
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: davidl@ssd.intel.com (David Levine)
Subject: Re: Merlin Backwards (was Re: My view of the ESF stories ..)
Organization: Supercomputer Systems Division, Intel Corp.
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 17:57:25 GMT

In article <92213.11:13:42.155803.K42@vm.urz.uni-heidelberg.de> K42@vm.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (Monika Best) writes:
>In article <1992Jul31.062031.21173@neptune.inf.ethz.ch>
>qvortrup@inf.ethz.ch (Michael Qvortrup) writes:
>>In article <1992Jul30.214934.27426@kakwa.ucs.ualberta.ca> aaron@space.ualberta.
>>>...
>>>Next was "Winter Solstice".  I don't know if there's precedent in Arthurian
>>>mythos for Merlin's living backwards.
>>
>>I am fairly sure that there is a strong precedent for Merlin living
>>backwards, but I can't remember where I got it from. (...)
>
>Probably from T.H. White's _The Once and Future King_. At least, that's
>where I've seen this idea for the first time.

My big problem with "Winter Solstice" is that it wasn't internally
consistent, nor did it fit within the Arthur mythos (as I recall it).  

The internal consistency problem is this: the story portrays a Merlin
who is fading.  His magical powers (remembered future technology) are
almost gone, he can barely even function on a day-to-day basis, and he's
getting worse.  But he is getting worse BACKWARDS by our reckoning --
which means that to the ordinary people around him he was even feebler
yesterday than he is today.  And yet he is a wizard.  Everyone believes
he is a wizard because he could once work miracles.  How can this be?
If his mind is going, if the best he can do today to salve a wound is
pack it with mud and mumble a prayer, and yesterday (his tomorrow) he 
was (will be) even worse, how on Earth did he gain the reputation he has?

The consistency-with-the-Arthur-mythos problem follows from the above.
"Winter Solstice" appears to take place fairly near the end of Camelot,
with the Round Table falling apart and Guinevere and Lancelot's affair
already in progress.  But, as I recall the Arthur mythos, Merlin was a
very important factor in Arthur's gaining the throne in the first place
and expanding his empire.  If Merlin's going downhill as rapidly as all
that, how could he have been any help at all?  (Of course, the Arthur
mythos isn't all that self-consistent, and there are many versions of
it, so this inconsistency can be glossed over by saying "well, that's
not the way it was in this version of the mythos.")

"Winter Solstice" is still a powerfully-written story, but this internal
consistency problem bugged the heck out of me, and snapped my suspenders of
disbelief most painfully.

- David D. Levine, Intel Supercomputer Systems Division == davidl@ssd.intel.com
  "It's Dave, man, open up, I got the stuff!"  "Dave?  Dave's not here, man..."
From: jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com (Jim Mann)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Great SF Shorts
Date: 21 Jul 92 19:21:40 GMT
Reply-To: jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com

In article <1992Jul21.164615.28835@zip.eecs.umich.edu>  
charles@zip.eecs.umich.edu (Charles Jacob Cohen) writes:
> 
> A good source for short fiction is "The Best of Frederik Brown" edited
> by Fredrik Polk (I can't spell Fred, sorry).   Some are mysteries, but
> most are SF, and all are very very very good.  Lots of themes that
> were more original during his time.  I wish he had written more :(
> 
Brown wrote quite a bit, both SF and mysteries. Some of his
SF is coming back into print. I know that Baen, for example,
just reissued Martians Go Home.

--
Jim Mann       jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com  Stratus Computer
From: murphy@CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU (Keith Murphy)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Keyes
Date: 30 Jul 92 16:01:40 GMT


	Folks, as of 1989 Daniel Keyes was teaching at Ohio University
	In Athens OH.  I believe he was tenured, so I would assume he
	is still there.  BTW Athens was also the home of Billy Milligan
	the subject of _The Minds of Billy Milligan_.
				Keith Murphy
				Department of Communication
				Indiana Purdue U. Ft. Wayne
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: rob@watney.eng.ohio-state.edu (Rob Carriere)
Subject: Re: Errors in Covers (was Re: Hyperion covers)
Organization: The Ohio State University Dept of Electrical Engineering
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1992 08:10:56 GMT

In article <1992Jul24.161156.29118@col.hp.com> lpj@col.hp.com (Laura Johnson)
writes: 
[skin color errors on covers]
>Good God. This is appalling. I'd like to suggest that, as rec.arts.sf.*
>posters discover such books, they prominently post the titles. (_Friday_
>and _The_Cat_Who_Walked_Through_Walls_ have been mentioned so far, I
>believe.)

OK, how 'bout
   The Moon is a Harsh Mistress
   Take back Plenty  (both the paperback and the SFBC hardcover)

>Then I'd like to suggest that rec.arts.sf.* readers (and their friends,
>coworkers, etc.) boycott these books. If you want to read them, get them 
>from the library or borrow them from a friend; just don't pay money for 'em.

Much has already been said on this in other follow-ups, and I pretty much
agree that a boycott would not merely be useless, but counterproductive.

SR
---
From: ekho.bbs@cybernet.cse.fau.edu
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Iain Banks question
Date: 21 Jul 92 23:54:57 GMT
Organization: Florida Atlantic University, Boca Raton

Hi all!

  On reading your postings on Iain's novels, I was intrigued enough to 
order _Consider Phlebas_ from the bookstore.  The question that I have is 
should I read any of his other novels first, or are they all seperate 
stories in themselves?  (Your descriptions faintly reminded me of the 
episode "Blake" in Blakes 7 :-)))) I'm looking forward to enjoying his 
books, and I give you my thanks in advance for your help and 
recommendations... See you on the airwaves!


             Yours in Time and Space,

                 Ekho (Killer Queen, Dynamite with a Laser Beam)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: mvp@hsv3.lsil.com (Mike Van Pelt)
Subject: Re: Errors in Covers (was Re: Hyperion covers)
Organization: Video 7 + G2 = Headland Technology
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 19:29:04 GMT

In article <rdippold.711835806@cancun> rdippold@cancun.qualcomm.com (Ron Dippold) writes:
>Has anyone ever caught Michael Whelan in a cover error?  It seems like
>he actually reads the book, as the covers are filled with details from
>the books, but it can happen to anyone...

The cover for "The Cat Who Walks Through Walls" had two
errors if you want to be nit-picky:

1) The cat Pixel didn't enter the story until long after the
   episode where Hazel used the geisha disguise.

2) Col. Campbell's race was not caucasian.  Possibly not an error;
   I don't recall the details of his disguise at the time Hazel
   did the geisha bit.

-- 
Mike Van Pelt
Headland Technology/Video 7              Use a pun, go to jail.
sun!indetech!hsv3!mvp
mvp@hsv3.lsil.com