HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: valerie@edsi.plexus.COM (Valerie La Rue)
Subject: saturnalia
Organization: Enterprise Data Systems Incorporated, Appleton WI
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 05:53:41 GMT
Summary: any info on this is wanted
Keywords: in january-nordskogen


greetings:
   would anyone be able to send me info on saturnalia in january 
in minnesota? i would like to weigh the choice between going to 
that and going to chicago for an event the same weekend.
   any e-mail will be appreciated. Jan 9th is the date i believe.
                           valerie
From: SAUNDRSG@qucdn.queensu.ca (Graydon)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: fealty and peers
Date: 7 Nov 92 17:46:00 GMT
Organization: The Internet

Greetings!

This is in the form a a bunch of assertions; I have more hope of
starting a productive discussion that way.

SCA peerage most closely conforms to the period English concept
of 'knightly estate' - the minimum anual income that got you
taxed as a noble (that is, taxed with at least one person's, or
(through scutage) the value of at least one person's armed service).

As such, trying to use the model of actual knightly military service
is unneccesarily narrow.

The idea that all the people of knightly estate, and all the magnates,
must be in direct homage to the Crown is *not* a period concept.

So - recognize that the magnates (Ducal, County, Vicounty, and Landed
Baronage) are essentially a fourth peerage order.  Let them have meetings,
and recommend people to the Crown for elevation if they want to.
Keep the mandatory grant of Ducal and County rank upon succesful completion of
a reign.  Barons would be kingdom dependent, but a patent has to be
possible.

Relax the Corpora ban on homage to those other than the King (get the
homage/fealty distinction straight, and into Corpora!); those peers
wishing to do homage to the Crown wear plain gold chains when being
formal.  Those who wish to make a display of their homage wear
chains with the badge of their leige on it.  (or something; the only
thing I like to see legislated is the restriction of the plain gold
chains to designate homage to the Crown.  Note that Great Officers
are *not* in homage to the Crown, being responsible to their office
before they are responsible to the Crown.)

Individuals who may not swear oaths to the Crown (or anyone else)
can still certainly be recognized as of knightly estate (this is
to avoid using the SCA sense of the word 'peer'); there are presumably
models of knight (i.e. religious hospitallers) who would have sworn
to be virtuous knights, since their homage was presumably to God.

Redo the formal ranking structure to put landed barons *ahead*
of people of knightly estate.  Restrict 'sir' as an intitulation
to those of knightly estate and up; make it very plain that it is
an acceptable form of address for anyone.   Restrict 'Lord/Lady'
as an intitulation to those of knightly estate; make it very plain
that it is an acceptable form of address for anyone.  Release
Master/Mistress from any restriction.   All the Chivalry are knights.

It would be a little more period, it would be way-serious less confusing,
and it doesn't step on many toes.  (oh - it should be 'patent of arms,
award of crest, grant of supporters' rather than the present AoA,
Grant, Patent structure. (same arms, can only be granted *once*))

Graydon, who is wondering how radical he seems on this issue.
From: doug@telly.on.ca (Doug Young)
Subject: Re: Filk vs. Recreation (was Re: out-of-period dancing)
Organization: Somewhere just far enough out of Toronto
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 22:28:10 GMT

Richard Britnel of Salisbury writes
RB: Greetings to all of the Rialto, and especially to the Most Illustrious and
RB: Excellent Lord Justinian Clarus.
RB: Second, a community standard has already been set.  We recreate
RB: the period between 600 and 1600.  Certain Playford dances may be borderline
RB: because they were presumably danced for a while before being recorded, but 
RB: Playford first edition (1651) really is the upper limit.  Hole in the Wall 
RB: just does not come anywhere close to this standard.

Do not confuse a corporate standard with a community standard.  My point is
that some people REALLY want to dance Hole in the Wall.  And if nothing else
we can use Hole in the Wall as a Tool to get people on the dance floor.

RB: Allow me to draw a parallel.  I am as interested in 18th century European
RB: culture as I am in 16th century.  Yet I do not expect to be allowed to
RB: appear at an SCA event wearing garb from the 18th century.  

In fact the autocrat would have corporate grounds to ask you to change your
clothes.  One on the three requirements to attend SCA events is an ATTEMPT 
at pre 1600 garb.

RB: That would fly
RB: in the face of what the society was trying to create.  It may even help to
RB: ruin the mood for some at the event.  Why then should we disallow 18th
RB: century grab, yet allow 18th century dance?

RB: My friend, my concern is that many in your position do not give themselves
RB: an opportunity to even try period dance, but dismiss it out of hand as
RB: being "too difficult" or "boring".  

Not me!! I'll take any opportunity to do any form of dance.  

I've created a wonderful hornet's nest here.  (Actually I think I'm just
stirring it a bit) However, do not think that my defence of the dreaded
HITW is out of a love for the style . . . it is the opportunity it presents
for getting people out on the dance floor, then teaching them something real!
+---------------------------------------+------------------------------------+
| Justinian Clarus, a dumb stick jock   | Douglas Young                      |
| the service of the Principality of    | doug@telly.on.ca                   |
| Ealdormere, the Middle Kingdom and    | ..!uunet!attcan!telly!doug         |
| a life dedicated to fighting          | Orangeville, Ontario, Canada       |
| feasting and frivolity                | (519) 942-2514                     |
+---------------------------------------+------------------------------------+
From: mdobbins@asns.tredydev.Unisys.COM (Michael Dobbins)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: OOP ?
Date: 9 Nov 92 20:07:52 GMT
Organization: Unisys Corporation, Tredyffrin, PA

In article <1dchmhINNg4s@agate.berkeley.edu> dgreen@thor (David Greenebaum) writes:
>For the second time in a year (and during that time, I've been
>away from the Rialto for about half a year), I hear the question,
>
>> k> What does the frequently abreviation OOP mean?
>
>I vote we add this to the list of FAQ's.
>Anybody with me?

It is in the FAQ already.  Look at part 3 of 4 dated Oct 21, 1992 in
this newsgroup. 
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: tbarnes@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (thomas wrentmore barnes)
Subject: Re: Shoe Biz
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1992 18:37:18 GMT

In article <1992Nov3.153535.4667@egf-bbs.uucp> aboz@egf-bbs.uucp (Aboz the Untidy) writes:
>Period footwear seems to be the most difficult item of garb to locate.  A
>friend of mine is connected with a historical shoe company, but as yet
>they are still in the Black Powder era, their medieval line still n R&D.  
>In the meantime, I'm going to events in New Balance Walkers.   I find
>moccasins to be unacceptible, if I'm going to buy shoes especially for
>SCA, I wangt them to look right.   Now the question:
>
>Are there readily available mail-order sources for period footwear?
>
>

I'm pretty sure that noone makes specifically period footwear, BUT
moccasins with the fringe cut off (especially the calf-length/knee
length type), China Flats/Kung Fu Slippers in either the "Mary Jane" or
Slip on style and some sorts of slippers make acceptable fakes for some
periods.
	Also simple period shoes are incredibly easy to make. The uppers
were commonly made of thick cloth as well as leather with a bit of
leather sew/glued to the bottom. I have made a pair of 13-14th C. shoes,
by hand in about 3 hours. The pattern took 1 hour before that (you only
need a pattern for one foot - the larger one - reverse the pattern for
the other foot). If you have a suitable sewing machine you could make an
authentic looking pair of shoes in about 30 minutes.
	I have day dreamed about running a period cobbler's shop at
Pennsic, since a basic set of medieval "turned" shoes is so simple and
cheap to make. (I rejected the idea because of lack of a decent sewing
machine, inability to predict what styles would sell, and inability to
get sufficient capital produce a stock. I'm also not that skilled a
leatherworker.) My cursory readings about shoe styles lead me to believe
that only Roman Sandals and 16th c. cobbled shoes and boots would be any
trouble to produce.

Lothar \|/
        0


>-- 
>Berwyn Aethelbryght, Pursuivant of the Shire of Elverod, Grand Forks, ND
>                BKA (Known on the BBS as) Aboz the Untidy


Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: st923058@pip.cc.brandeis.edu (Rosaleen Dhu)
Subject: Re: Welsh name question
Reply-To: st923058@pip.cc.brandeis.edu
Organization: Brandeis University
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 22:19:06 GMT

	Yes. "Ab" and "Ap" both mean "son of". I have seen "daughter of" spelt
"uerch", "verch" and "ferch". I don't know which is correct, but I do know
that if a word were pronounced "verch" it'd be spelt "ferch". Hope that
helps.
				Roisin Ruadh
				Jess Raine
				Rosaleen Dhu
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: 0003900943@mcimail.COM (Marla Lecin)
Subject: West Kingdom awards
Organization: The Internet
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1992 20:59:00 GMT

Good gentles, 

I am writing a series of articles for TI, on the various awards and
honors given out by the kingdoms and principalities.

The first article, which will probably be published in the March TI,
covers the West Kingdom, along with the Principalities of the Mists,
Cynagua, Oertha and Lochac.  I am working from a very comprehensive
list compiled by Hirsch von Henford (dated July AS 27), but I still 
have some questions.  (Such as - are certain honors only titles,
which can be awarded multiple times, what are the acronyms used for
each, which are polling or advisory orders, etc.)

If there are any gentles on the Rialto who live in these areas who 
would be able to assist me (especially those who can quote to me from
their Kingdom/Principality Law sections on these awards, and who have
actually seen the awards in practice) please contact me privately via
e-mail.  (Please don't flood the Rialto with lists of awards!  I already
have most of the information.)

Many thanks,

Jessa d'Avondale
Deputy to the Editor of TI

[Marla Lecin - mlecin@mcimail.com]
From: Beth.Appleton@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Beth Appleton)
Sender: FredGate@ocitor.fidonet
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Dutch dancing...
Date: Sun, 08 Nov 1992 00:48:08

 JP> Speaking of dancing, is there anyone out there 
 JP> interested in dancing who
 JP> speaks Dutch? A friend found a facsimile copy of a 
 JP> Dutch dance manual from
 JP> 1626 in her university library.  Most of the 
 Wow!  I don't speak Dutch, but I'd appreciate it if you'd pass along 
 the title of that book.  I'd be willing to plod through it with a 
 dictionary (in my copious free time)(realizing that dictionary 
 translations aren't that good)...
     Gwenllian Cwmystwyth ferch Morfudd
     Beth.Appleton@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org

 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
From: TALLAN@flis.utoronto.ca (David)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: when is period
Date: 5 Nov 92 11:59:08 GMT
Article-I.D.: flis.MAILQUEUE-101.921105115908.512
Organization: The Internet

I read in SCA Digest V5 #759:

> Why put them on the spot as the bad guy?  Just BAN all dances that cannot be
> documented as being performed prior to 1650.

I thought the official limit was now 1600. Was I wrong?

David Tallan (tallan@flis.utoronto.ca)
From: jschmidt@oolong.Tymnet.COM (John Schmidt)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Subcultures in the SCA
Summary: What ones?
Date: 10 Nov 92 23:44:28 GMT
Followup-To: rec.org.sca
Organization: BT North America (Tymnet)

Hail, fellow Rialtans!  John Theophilous greets you!

I was priviledged this weekend in being able to attend a feast given by
the Order of St. George, a group of people who, within the bounds of the
SCA, are creating a 14th century tourneying society.  It was a wonderful
feast, and gave rise to three questions in my mind:

What other subculture groups are forming in the SCA?  Some less formal ones
might be the bellydance subculture, the Horde (which I am unfamiliar with),
the tournying subculture, gypsies, the Varangian Guard (of An Tir), or
the various pirate groups.  The only way to recognize them is that they
are here in the SCA, differently...

Are the different styles of combat leading to different cultures?  Lights,
swishypokes, rattan rats, war junkies, megadukes, etc?  Is this good, 
bad, not noticable?

Are these subcultures replacing local area involvement?  That is, do the
local (insert group here) band together with other (i g h), and not stay
in the local barony/shire/principality/kingdom?  Admittedly, that's very
easy in the Mists where there are lots of us, but I also see it in some
fairly far off areas.

Just a point, for discussion.  

Cheers,

John
From: z_berryrw@ccsvax.sfasu.edu
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: A (Possibly Period) Timepiece?
Date: 13 Nov 92 06:27:49 CST
Organization: Stephen F. Austin State University

[BIn article <BxLor9.HKC@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca>, guth@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (G.Guth) writes:
> On the topic of telling the time, just when were the first pocket watches
> made?  I have a feeling that they, in their earliest forms, are not too
> OOP.
....
> Just curious..
> Richard Britnell of Salisbury.

Greetings and well met!

I have (somewhere in my vast pile of books) a reference to an early
type of pocket watch.  The timepiece had only a single hand which
indicated the hour, and was shaped like a turnip.  It was worn on a
chain or fob, like later pocket watches, and was very expensive, and
not terribly precise.  
I remember this object for it explained a line in a song, which I can
now not remember.  The song was about a country bumpkin who wanted to
be sophisticated like the city folk.  In the song, he takes a Cricket
and places it in a turnip, so that he can have a watch.   
I know this info is not terribly scholarly, but I will endeavour to 
find both the reference to the watch, and to the song.
If any of you out there know what I am rambling on about, please
tell me :)

I would appreciate any help in re-discovering either or both.

Ulfrickr Thorinsson av Gotland (Wolfie :)
MKA Rick Berry, z_berryrw@ccsvax.sfasu

<< INSERT LONG WITTY SIGNATURE BANNER HERE >>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: Suze.Hammond@f56.n105.z1.fidonet.org (Suze Hammond)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Perceptions of the SCA
Date: 6 Nov 92 11:21:00 GMT
Article-I.D.: therose.721123156.AA00000

JM>  Greetings from Arval!  Mikjal wrote:
JM>
JM>  > Is it important what real medievalists think about the SCA, and how
JM>  do we
JM>  > go about changing the perception?
JM>
JM>  Partly as a result of clumsy contacts, academics do not understand
JM>  what the
JM>  SCA is trying to do and so they evaluate us by inappropriate
JM>  standards.
JM>  The SCA is not a medievalist organization in the sense of
JM>  academia,    [....]

I think we have one good "handle" on this problem. Where other groups do 
only what history has already proven, we have a lot of people who are 
willing to experiment. Since we do NOT do real, total re-creation, that is 
not what we can offer the academics.

What we CAN offer is the opportunity to attempt to build things or try 
techniques that historians have only found hints at. The possibility that 
one might find a group within the local SCA that will help make something 
real out of the fragmented bits of references could be very useful in some 
disciplines, especially since the SCAdians would likely be willing to 
provide a good bit of the funds if allowed to keep the results...

I am mindful of the recent re-creations of flint-napping and the experiments 
in butchering animal carcasses with real stone tools....

JM>  Phrases like "re-creation group" or "medievalist group"
JM>  have
JM>  standard meanings that simply do not include the SCA;  [....]

We are unique. There isn't an academic term for us.

JM>  [....]  we may find it
JM>  convenient to describe ourselves in those terms, but it is inaccurate
JM>  and
JM>  bound to lead to misunderstanding.  The answer to this part of the
JM>  problem
JM>  is clear: Explain what the Society is (as opposed to what each of us
JM>  individually choose to do in the Society)...[...]...

I just call myself "a closet medievalist"   ;-)

Moreach NicMhaolain

Reply ONLY to: trifid@agora.rain.com 
 
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: valerie@edsi.plexus.COM (Valerie La Rue)
Subject: you know you're in the SCA when...permission
Organization: Enterprise Data Systems Incorporated, Appleton WI
Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1992 05:49:19 GMT
Summary: e-mail if not ok
Keywords: permission to quote from usenet


greetings....i would like to know if any one who has posted "you 
know you're in SCA when" articles would have any objection to them 
being used as filler for the Village Idiot, newletter of 
Windhaven, Midrealm...our chronicler is desperate for items and 
may not be able to quote the source but would dearly love to use 
many that we found on this net. if ANYONE has any objection would 
they please send me e-mail ASAP so we can delete said articles 
from the copy we have. ever gratefully yours,
                   valerie verlaine
                      queen's own shire of windhaven
From: Godfrey de Shipbrook <jlee@smylex.UUCP>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: I am still bewildered
Date: Mon,  9 Nov 92 18:11:11 EST
Organization: Shipbrook Software  (Tampa, FL)

Greetings from Godfrey!

Master William de Corbie writes (speaking about the level of authenticity
striven for by members):
>
> This is my experience also, but only to a degree. Some people do
> get interested, others remain as they are. For every soul we save,
> there are two or three heathens who we do not reach; and these tend
> to bunch together and support each other in their common refusal to
> care for authenticity.

Such as whether or not Strip the Willow is period?  ;-)

(Sorry, couldn't resist...)


+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Net:  Jeff Lee / jlee@smylex.uucp / jlee%smylex.uucp@tscs.tscs.com     |
| SCA:  Lord Godfrey de Shipbrook / Wyvernwood, Trimaris                 |
|       Per pale azure and argent, a clarion counterchanged or and gules |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
 The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious.  It is the
 source of all true art and science.                    - Albert Einstein
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: SAUNDRSG@qucdn.queensu.ca (Graydon)
Subject: filk vs recreation
Organization: The Internet
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 01:41:00 GMT

Justinian writes:
Do not confuse a corporate standard with a community standard.  My point is
that some people REALLY want to dance Hole in the Wall.  And if nothing else
we can use Hole in the Wall as a Tool to get people on the dance floor.

RB: Allow me to draw a parallel.  I am as interested in 18th century European
RB: culture as I am in 16th century.  Yet I do not expect to be allowed to
RB: appear at an SCA event wearing garb from the 18th century.

In fact the autocrat would have corporate grounds to ask you to change your
clothes.  One on the three requirements to attend SCA events is an ATTEMPT
at pre 1600 garb.
.....
The event organiser has Corporate grounds to ask you to stop dancing
Hole in the Wall, too.  (The good and maybe sufficent tactical reasons
for not doing this I won't go into.)

Corpora II D:
Anyone may attend Society events provided he or she wears an attempt
at pre-17th century dress, conforms to the provisions of the By-Laws
and Corpora, complies with any other requirements (such as site fees
or waivers) which may be imposed by the Society, and behaves as a lady
or gentleman.  However, the responsible officers may exempt attendees
at business meetings and informal classes from the requirement to
wear pre-17th century dress.

Corpora II A:
The term 'Society event' refers to tournaments, feasts, and other
activities whereby participants can display the results of their
researches into period culture and technology in an evironment which
evokes the atmosphere of the Middle Ages and Renaissance.  It also
refers to educational activities involving either one-time classes or
ongoing university organizations, and meetings where participants
share skills or discuss the business of the group.  All Society
events must be sponsored by branches of the Society, registered with
the Seneschal of the sponsoring branch and publicized at least to
the membership of that branch, and conducted according to
Society rules.

By the formal definitions, it is *entirely* reasonable for the
organizer of an event to insist that things known to be OOP not
be done.  The includes pouring coke out of coke cans, dancing
Hole in the Wall, and bunny fur bikinis.

The social suicide involved in being stuffy about this is starting
to seem worth it.

Graydon
From: Tim@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Tim)
Sender: FredGate@ocitor.fidonet
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Fealty, not oaths, to a kingdom
Date: Sun, 08 Nov 1992 07:44:51

    Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin responded to Arval:
 -> In article <1992Nov05.163247.144949@watson.ibm.com>
 -> mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman) writes:
 -> "Greetings from Arval!  Dorothea wrote:
 -> "
 -> "> The language used in the West is "fealty" for Peers or Barons or Great
 -> "> Officers; occasionally "homage" for the rest of the populace...
 -> "
 -> "Interesting.  Do you have any idea how & why this usage 
 -> started?  I ask for
 -> "a simple reason: It is incorrect.  ....

 -> Arval, I haven't a clue.  Some of the old-guard Heralds may know.  Most
 -> likely, somebody started it on the spur of the moment and we've been
 -> doing it that way ever since (this is the West, where we've got more
 -> Traditions than Tevye).

 It does, however, *almost* make sense. "Homage" is a personal relationship
 of service and protection; "fealty" is the rendering of service in return
 for a "fee". Knights are in fealty by virtue of their peerage; landed
 nobility are in fealty by virtue of their holdings; Great Officers are in
 fealty by virtue of their offices. For non-Knight peers and non-landed
 nobility to characterize their relationship with the Crown as "fealty",
 however, would be inaccurate (unless, of course, the Crown gives them
 something on account of it...).

    Tadhg, Obelisk

 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Subject: Re: >swords...
Reply-To: whheydt@PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 23:01:24 GMT

In article <92Nov06.195824.31783@acs.ucalgary.ca> parr@acs.ucalgary.ca (Charles Parr) writes:
>I don't know if our local constables who are also mundane 
>police officers carry at events...I suspect they do, based
>on the fact that most police officers *do* carry a weapon
>even off duty. 

Can't speak for your area...  But (generally speaking) ours do.  

	--Hal

        Hal Ravn, Province of the Mists, West Kingdom
        Wilson H. Heydt, Jr.,  Albany, CA 94706,  510/524-8321 (home)
-- 
Hal Heydt                    |    "Boycott Time-Warner"
Analyst, Pacific*Bell        |         --J. Danforth Quayle
510-823-5447                 |    "... kill all the lawyers."
whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM    |         --William Shakespeare
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca