HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mec@math.ufl.edu (Mike E. Cerrato)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: Girl/Boy Scouts?
Date: 3 Apr 92 15:36:56 GMT
Article-I.D.: cantor.MEC.92Apr3103656
	<1992Mar28.101107.26495@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu>
	<1992Mar28.233556.4484@newserve.cc.binghamton.edu>
	<1992Mar31.053543.9853@CS.ORST.EDU>
Reply-To: sirotto%maple.decnet@pine.circa.ufl.edu
Organization: University of Florida Department of Mathematics

In article <1992Mar31.053543.9853@CS.ORST.EDU> johnh@prism.CS.ORST.EDU (John Holeman) writes:

   I guess I'll have to give my input on this subject too.  First of
   all I seem to remember a lawsuit a summer or two ago where a girl
   wanted to attend a Boy Scoutcamp but was denied on the basis of
   gender.  Does anyone know the outcome of this suit?

I believe she was denied membership.  I also remember hearing she
wanted to join so she could play with knives . . . The accuracy of
that is, ahhhhh, well you decide.  I just know I heard it.  I think on
the radio one morning on the way to school . . .
--
           ___  __
|\   |\   |    /  \  Internet:          sirotto%maple.decnet@pine.circa.ufl.edu
| \  | \  |   /      Usenet:     ...!uunet!uflorida!maple.circa.ufl.edu!sirotto
|  \ |  \ |--<       Bitnet:    "sirotto%maple.decnet%pine.circa.ufl.edu"@NERVM
|   \|   \|___\____/                                                           

SirOtto -- Gallant Knight of a rather large, squarish  |     Michael E. Cerrato
  table someplace in the West Panhandle of Florida.    |  University of Florida
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: whs70@dancer.uucp (24411-sohl)
Subject: Re: It'd Be A Shame
Reply-To: whs70@dancer.UUCP ()
Organization: Bellcore, Livingston, NJ
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 92 15:18:42 GMT

In article <1992Apr09.132548.7059@digibd.com> merlyn@digibd.com (Merlyn LeRoy) writes:
>whs70@dancer.uucp (24411-sohl) writes:
>[much omitted re: supreme being, oaths, etc]
>>The individual who would not be able to honestly comply with this
>>would be an atheist.  
>
>Mr. Sohl, I find it interesting you would followup to followups
>of my original reply to your article but not address my original
>statement.  The BSA did not honestly comply with the United Way
>requirements to not religiously discriminate when they (the BSA)
>accepted funding.  Do you support the BSA taking money under false
>pretenses?  Is it OK for the BSA to lie to get funded?  Don't you
>find the BSA's actions reprehensible & hypocritical?
>---
>Merlyn LeRoy

Much has been said, nothing has been shown to me, that there is
any specific agreement between the United Way and BSA to which
the BSA has misrepresented itself.  Until such time as that is
the case, I'll presume that there has been no such dishonesty
on the part of BSA.  If as you claim it is that clearcut, then why
does UW continue its funding of BSA?

Perhaps yu should, as is your right, direct your concerns to
the folks at UW to see what they have to say first.

Standard Disclaimer- Any opinions, etc. are mine and NOT my employer's.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Sohl (K2UNK) BELLCORE (Bell Communications Research, Inc.)
Morristown, NJ             email via UUCP      bcr!dancer!whs70
201-829-2879 Weekdays      email via Internet  whs70@dancer.cc.bellcore.com
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: kaleb@thyme.jpl.nasa.gov (Kaleb Keithley)
Subject: Re: Eagle Court of Honor Question
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, CA
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 92 16:06:19 GMT

In article <1992Apr10.124919.5477@usenet.ins.cwru.edu> ad980@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Paul S. Wolf) writes:
>
>	You, or the SM or CC should send personal letters to all
>the dignitaries you can think of, Inviting them to the Eagle Court.
> [list of dignitaries deleted]

When I had my Eagle Court, I sent the same invitations I sent to friends
and relatives to the dignitaries.  

While you're at it, it's a good opportunity to ask your Congressman for 
a flag that has flown over the White House.  

Don't forget your Police Chief or Sheriff; LAPD for example, used to
send an officer in uniform to present an award to the new Eagle.  I
don't know if they still do this, but I expect that they do.

-- 

Kaleb Keithley                               kaleb@thyme.jpl.nasa.gov

Not authorized, in any way, shape, or form, to speak for anyone.
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee)
Subject: Re: Proposal? (girls, atheists, sexuality)
Organization: Johns Hopkins University CS Dept.
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1992 02:19:09 GMT

In article <1992Apr7.233424.14974@ulowell.ulowell.edu> rcashman@cs.ulowell.edu (The Jester) writes:
>Yet again, Mr. Strom clouds the waters of debate with inflammatory rhetoric
>in order to make his point.  Priests and friars are not excluded from lead-
>ership roles in the scouting program because, while they cannot conform to
>scouting ideals in terms of sexuality, they have dedicated their life to
>another, slightly more important ideal of the organization: religion and
>service to God (in whatever form).

Oh?  What about homosexuals or atheists who have dedicated their life to
something more important than the specific scouting ideals they don't
conform to?
--
This is a newer version of the memetic .signature infection.  Now that's an
idea.  Copy it into your .signature today!

Ken Arromdee (UUCP: ....!jhunix!arromdee; BITNET: arromdee@jhuvm;
     INTERNET: arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu)
From: cronin@en.ecn.purdue.edu (Fester the Penguin)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: It'd Be A Shame
Date: 16 Apr 92 18:07:05 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network

In article <BRENTR.92Apr16093522@sigi.colorado.edu> brentr@cs.colorado.edu (Brent Reeves) writes:
> hmmm, let's see if I understand this: courageous victims of violence
> have honor regardless of the reasons they were subjected to violence.
> What an interesting defense, "I have suffered for my detesting
> choices, therefore you must treat me with dignity."  Often, people
> learn from consequences; but homosexuals continue to fight the truth
> that they are but a small aberration in the grand scheme of life.
>
> You confuse discomfort with righteousness.  There are many reasons
> for experiencing discomfort - but discomfort is not an indicator that
> you deserve honor, pity, forgiveness, etc.  Consider the possibility
> that the discomfort you experience is an indicator of a fundamental
> principle of life.  One general law in this universe might be summed
> up as, "you do something stupid, you die."  Your mileage (profit)
> from this law will vary.
>
> I defend a GBL's right to vote, but don't whine about discomfort; be
> open to the possibility that pain is often a wake-up call.


Let me see if I understand what you just wrote - you condone the assault
and murder of homosexuals because "they are but a small aberration"??????
Maybe you should trade in your BSA uniform for a brown shirt....

Thomas Cronin
Eagle Scout
Light tan shirt, not brown.
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: dadams@cherry.cray.com (David Adams)
Subject: Re: It'd Be A Shame
Originator: dadams@cherry
Organization: Cray Research, Inc.
Date: 14 Apr 92 11:13:57 CDT


In article <1992Apr14.135239.10380@m.cs.uiuc.edu>, kadie@herodotus.cs.uiuc.edu (Carl M. Kadie) writes:
> daveh@compnect.UUCP (Dave Hultberg) writes:

> So, by analogy, it is OK for a Boy Scout of America to take 40 items
> through the 10-item-or-less line at a supermarket if he doesn't lie
> about the number of items? And it is OK for the Boy Scout (of A) to
> say, if you don't let me use this line, I and quite a few of my
> friends will stop using this supermarket. (And if the people in line
> behind the Boy Scout (of A) complain, the Boy Scout can say "they are
> just troublemakers.")
> 
> There is more to honesty than not lying.
> 
> - Carl
> --
> Carl Kadie -- kadie@cs.uiuc.edu -- University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign

Yes I agree; it's time for the BSA to dump the UW.

I get the idea that the UW tries to keep the BSA on board in many
places since in some places the UW has a very liberal reputation and 
they are trying to balance it out -> brings more money in if they are 
seen to be more of a moderate group.
From: stank@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (Stan Krieger)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: Who signs off on Tenderfoot - 1st Class?
Date: 8 Apr 92 21:04:25 GMT
Organization: Summit NJ

>Subject: Who signs off requirements for Tenderfoot-1st Class?
>
>Well, the subject line just about says it all.  Is it an adult's
>job to signoff on the requirements, or can a patrol leader or
>other Senior Scout sign off.
>
>20 odd years ago, my Troop had the PLs do most of the sign off, but
>in my sons troop, only the SM or other adult signs off any thing.
>Their justification was that if the Scouts sign off, it really didn't
>amount to anything since the Scouts would let their friends slide.
>
>Since this troop appears to have a few (understatement) problems with
>the Scouts leading the show, I feel that giving this responsibilty to
>the Scouts should help out.  
>
>I tend to be of the opinion that the Adults are there to ensure nothing
>catastrophic happens, to help pickup the pieces when minor problems
>occur, provide suggestions when mistakes are being made through the
>Senior Scouts, and to provide guidance and suggestions when asked.  I
>think my fellow leaders would like for this to be the case, but aren't
>sure how to get there.
>
>So, if in addition to letting me know who does the sign off, also try
>to give me a feel for who runs your Troop - All Scouts, Mostly Scouts,
>Scouts and Adults, Mostly Adults, All Adults.  For those that have
>been successful in moving toward more Scout leadership, who did you do
>it?

Under the Troop Operations Program introduced in 1989,  the Assistant
Scoutmaster in charge of the New Scout Patrol(s) is responsible for
signing off on the requirements.  Basically, as part of the program
to minimize hazing of the younger boys, direct responsibility for their
advancement was taken away from the "Leadership Corp" (which, incidentally,
doesn't exist under the new Troop Operations Program) and transferred
to adult leaders.  The only boys who should be working with the new
Scouts are the Troop Guides.

In our Troop, we will let the Troop Guides make pass/fail recommendations;
however the adult leaders do have the final decision.  A few years ago,
the boy leader owned the decision.

Our meetings are basically run by the boys.  The Scoutmaster, in meetings
with the senior boys, puts a detailed agenda together, to the point where
each boy in charge of something is shown on the schedule.  There must
be adult supervision and control at all times though.   It's just a case
where a boy leader is responsible for a given area (such as the 2nd Class
First Aid requirements for a given week, or instruction in some aspect
of canoeing).
-- 
Stan Krieger                     All opinions, advice, or suggestions, even
AT&T UNIX System Laboratories    if related to my employment, are my own.
Summit, NJ
smk@usl.com
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: merlyn@digibd.com (Merlyn LeRoy)
Subject: Re: Real BSA Issues (was: another greeting)
Organization: DigiBoard Incorporated, Eden Prairie, MN
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1992 13:19:56 GMT

stank@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (Stan Krieger) writes:
>As far as the issue of United Way support, I could complain that the
>local YMCA is a receipient.  As far as other civic support, among the
>groups, besides our Troop, that work at the local recycling center for
>a share of the profits, is the youth group of a local church.  Should I
>complain because I'm indirectly supporting a Christian church or 
>Christian ideals?  The bottom line is that both organizations provide
>social services, as does BSA.

You still don't get it.  The UW doesn't say you can't be a religously
affiliated organization, it says you can't discriminate in offering your
services on the basis of religion.  A soup kitchen that refused service
to Jews would not be supported, and a youth organization that was honest
and admitted it would refuse admission to atheists would not be supported.
However, the BSA got around that little problem by lying.

---
Merlyn LeRoy
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: jallen@jarthur.claremont.edu (Jeff R. Allen)
Subject: Re: rec.scouting
Organization: Harvey Mudd College, Claremont, CA 91711
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1992 00:49:01 GMT

In article <1992Apr6.123057.7264@waikato.ac.nz> poli2031@waikato.ac.nz writes:

>  I also experience one summer camp as a counsellor under the BSA
>International Camp Staff program. 

Could you post more info about the International Camp Staff program?  I
remember hearing about it once, and I'd be interested to see if I

1) Qualify

and

2) Could afford it. (Camp staff tends to pay less/cost more than working
   at a _real_ job over the summer... :)     )

--
Jeff Allen (IRC: Itter)         /  Q. What's so unpleasant about
Freshman, Harvey Mudd College   \     being drunk?
                                /  A. Why don't you ask a glass
jallen@jarthur.claremont.edu    \     of water?
From: you know..
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Wow, isn't that A Shame
Date: 16 Apr 92 05:31:07 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network

In article <1992Apr15.222131.14001@ulowell.ulowell.edu> rcashman@cs.ulowell.edu (The Jester) writes:
>In article <1992Apr15.132616.6572@wpi.WPI.EDU> entropy@banzai (Lawrence C Foard) writes:
>>In article <1992Apr14.133347.23005@porthos.cc.bellcore.com> mpb@troy.uucp (27331-bunz) writes:
>>If you want to see real honor and bravery go ask some GBL's about there life
>>stories. Would you have the guts to go on after being kicked out of your
>>house, beaten up, had friends killed, lost jobs, just because you refused to
>>live a lie?
>
>Let's not let this degenerate into a "my daddy's bigger than your daddy"
>argument.  My four-year-old brother has arguments with his friends that
>sound a lot like this drivel.  "If you want to see a REAL Ninja Turtle,
>take a look at Donatello!"

Yep, I guess "Mr" Cashman wouldn't have the guts to go on....

Next contestant, please....

Oh, "Mr" Cashman, what was that about "keeping your beliefs to yourself"
you also mentioned in your post? Would it be possible to keep your
warped, twisted and sick beliefs out of the BSA? Hmmm?

Thomas Cronin
Eagle Scout
cronin@en.ecn.purdue.edu
Xref: sparky rec.scouting:924 alt.atheism:8455
From: kdc5072@cs.rit.edu (Kevin D Colagio)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting,alt.atheism
Subject: Re: B.S.A. Belief in God Requirement
Date: 15 Apr 92 19:20:52 GMT
Followup-To: rec.scouting
Distribution: usa
Organization: Rochester Institute of Technology, Rochester, NY

In article <1992Apr15.172536.20553@m.cs.uiuc.edu> kadie@herodotus.cs.uiuc.edu (Carl M. Kadie) writes:
  hayes@ddemo3.aero.org (Brian Hayes 74-35 x65129) writes:
  
  [...]
  >1.  Does BSA policy require you to swear to God (or a god)?  Or, is this 
  >an infered interpretation?
  [...]
  
  ==================================
  Chicago Tribune (Sept 25, 1990) says:
  
  "'On my honor I will do my best to do my duty to God and
    my country,' goes the Boy Scout oath. The Boy Scout law
    also invokes the deity. A Scout, it says, is 'reverent'
    toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties and he
    respects the beliefs of others.'
  
    'If a boy does not subscribe to these precepts, he cannot
     be a Scout," a spokeswoman at the Boy Scouts' national
     headquarters in Dallas explained."
  
hmmm, looks like the Proper form of the word and therefore that they are
saying the Christian Supreme Being....Kinda non-tolerant in my eyes.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
-  Kevin Colagio...student at large -  I am looking   - In Gods we trust,      =
=               aka                 =  for something  - All others pay cash.   -
-         KDC5072@cs.rit.edu        -   to put here.  -      -Vladimir Taltos  =
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: kdc5072@cs.rit.edu (Kevin D Colagio)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting,alt.atheism
Subject: Re: B.S.A. Belief in God Requirement
Date: 16 Apr 92 01:17:11 GMT
Followup-To: rec.scouting
Distribution: usa
Organization: Rochester Institute of Technology, Rochester, NY

In article <15APR199218261995@rosie.uh.edu> st17y@rosie.uh.edu (Belding, Troy C.) writes:
  
[ repetitive stuff deleted ]

  	What I have found is that the BSA really only wants a belief in
  a higher being (beings?).  Be it angels, demons, aliens, whatever.
  The definition of a god tends to be(notice little g) a higher being or 
  force.
  
But that is not what it says when they use the capital 'g'.  Then they are
refering to a particular person because it is a proper noun.  All the
litereature that I have seen (though it hasn't been alot) has it spelled 'God'
as opposed to 'god'.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
-  Kevin Colagio...student at large -  I am looking   - In Gods we trust,      =
=               aka                 =  for something  - All others pay cash.   -
-         KDC5072@cs.rit.edu        -   to put here.  -      -Vladimir Taltos  =
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
From: mayne@open.cs.fsu.edu (William Mayne)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: A word on discrimination in the BSA
Date: 3 Apr 92 14:57:13 GMT
Article-I.D.: mailer.1992Apr3.095713.20213
Reply-To: mayne@cs.fsu.edu
Distribution: usa
Organization: Florida State University Dept. of Computer Science


I am confused. Were the following both posted by the same individual,
John Holeman, Eagle Scout 1991, with a day or so each other?

In article <1992Apr02.192817.19169@CS.ORST.EDU> johnh@prism.CS.ORST.EDU (John Holeman) writes:

>...  If an organization wants to believe that their members represent
>the best stock of our species, then it is apparent that they should have the 
>right to not accept flawed specimens.

In article <1992Apr02.194514.19899@CS.ORST.EDU> johnh@prism.CS.ORST.EDU (John Holeman) writes:

>Next, you are dead wrong about teaching morals to teenagers.  In my old troop
>we got several boys who came through our troop as part of rehabilitation at
>the juvenile detention hall.  Most of them DID learn something and left better
>people.

>John Holeman
>Eagle Scout 1991

Happily the BSA is not the Hitler Youth claiming its members are superior
stock and eliminating flawed specimens, but trying to help its members
be as good as they can be. It is not the well who need a physician, but
the sick.

Bill Mayne
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: brentr@cs.colorado.edu (Brent Reeves)
Subject: Re: It'd Be A Shame
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
	<1992Apr14.133347.23005@porthos.cc.bellcore.com>
	<1992Apr15.132616.6572@wpi.WPI.EDU>
Date: 16 Apr 92 09:35:22


Lawrence> If you want to see real honor and bravery go ask some GBL's
Lawrence> about there life stories. Would you have the guts to go on
Lawrence> after being kicked out of your house, beaten up, had friends
Lawrence> killed, lost jobs, just because you refused to live a lie?

Lawrence> My GBL friends have more honor than any scout will ever know.
Lawrence> -- 

 hmmm, let's see if I understand this: courageous victims of violence
 have honor regardless of the reasons they were subjected to violence.
 What an interesting defense, "I have suffered for my detesting
 choices, therefore you must treat me with dignity."  Often, people
 learn from consequences; but homosexuals continue to fight the truth
 that they are but a small aberration in the grand scheme of life.

 You confuse discomfort with righteousness.  There are many reasons
 for experiencing discomfort - but discomfort is not an indicator that
 you deserve honor, pity, forgiveness, etc.  Consider the possibility
 that the discomfort you experience is an indicator of a fundamental
 principle of life.  One general law in this universe might be summed
 up as, "you do something stupid, you die."  Your mileage (profit)
 from this law will vary.

 I defend a GBL's right to vote, but don't whine about discomfort; be
 open to the possibility that pain is often a wake-up call.

 -brent
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: pyr491@oz.plymouth.edu (Scott Bernier)
Subject: Re: A Round-Up of Some Thoughts
Reply-To: pyr491@oz.plymouth.edu (Scott Bernier)
Organization: Plymouth State College - Plymouth, N.H.
Distribution: rec
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 92 12:10:43 GMT

In article <1992Apr8.160633.7312@waikato.ac.nz> cdb@waikato.ac.nz (Craig D. Beere) writes:
>> Hmm, I really think you should modify the above statement.  I see 
>> no montheistic requirements anywhere with the BSA. 
>
>I dunno about American requirements, but in New Zealand the Scout Promise
>contains the phrase "My God".  Not "My Gods" but "My God".  Singluar.
>
>During my leader training I asked about this and was told that the requirement 
>was that Scouts had to believe on one god, who created the world and all in it.
>
>I'm not sure, but I think this rules out both atheists and polytheistics like
>the Celtic people, Danish (?) people (believe in Thor, Armageddon etc), etc.
>
>Would BSA accept a Celtic druid?  A person who believed in the Greek Gods?  A
>person who believed in Thor, etc?  A Gaianist?
>
>Personally I believe Scouts does discriminate.  I really don't see anything
>wrong with this.  We teach Scouts that people with other beliefs are not
>inferior, just different.  I view Scouting as like a church.  You don't say
>that Roman Catholics discriminate when they don't let Buddists be Catholics, do
>you?
>
>I think that things like public funding maybe need to be worked out in
>a courtroom.
>
>{*******************************************************************************
>** Craig D. Beere  (a.k.a. ++Byron)
>** University of Waikato, New Zealand
>** CDB@waikato.ac.nz
>*}
>{$I standard_disclaimer}
>{$I witty_quote}


     The last I heard (at Scout Leader Training last year), A scout in
the BSA must be reverant (12th point of the Scout Law).  It does not
specify how this must be.  Up here in New Hampshire, USA, as long as
the Scout believes there is some "higher life form" whether that "life
form" is God, Budda (sorry about any misspellings), unnamed entity, etc,
this requirement is fulfilled.
     So the answer to your question (at least up in "this neck of the woods")
is YES.   
       
Yours in the brotherhood of Scouting
Scott Bernier
Assistant Scoutmaster Troop 56 Plymouth, NH
&
Troop 443 Winslow, Maine

-- 
Scott Bernier    UUCP: pyr491@oz.plymouth.edu   
The Moxie Kid.   INTERNET: scott@vortex.plymouth.edu 
"Anyone can chug beeya, but it takes real guts to chug MOXIE!"
MOXIE -- Maine's original Party drink since 1884!