From: galan@netlink.cts.com (Greg Gross)
Newsgroups: ca.politics,soc.culture.asian.american,soc.culture.african.american
Subject: Re: 1 white male among new San Jose firemen of 22
Date: 23 Jul 92 07:43:26 GMT
Organization: NetLink Online Communications, San Diego CA

slagle@lmsc.lockheed.com (Mark Slagle) writes:

Anyone*dot*who advances the proposition that someone deserves some
sort of treatment, specifically pain in this case, because of their
skin color is racist.
> 
> > You're perfectly clear. Transparent, even. Also wrong.
> 
> Well, you haven't shown what you think is wrong about my
> simple statement of principle.
> 
The principle is just fine, Mark. Only that wasn't the point of my
comment, and still isn't. It was not about inflicting the feeling
of racism on whites simply because they're white. It was *never*
that simplistic, that narrow, that obtuse. It about letting the
victimizer (translation: those whites who *are* racist) walk long
enough in the shoes of the victim (translation: those non-whites
who experience racism at their hands) to realize the harm they are
are doing...and maybe desist.

> > Having experienced 40 years worth of racism myself, I would not 
> > casually wish it upon anyone else...not even you.
> 
> Whether you wish it upon me casually or earnestly does not
> make much of a difference in the result.  Try to remember,
> even if your target doesn't, that you are dealing with a
> person, not an object.
> 

I never forget I am dealing with human beings, Mark. But all too often,
a great many whites in this society (no, not all, but many) seem
determined to treat *me* as an object. And over the span of my life
to this point, the effect of gentle reminders to the contrary has
been decidedly mixed....

> Perhaps if you could simply, and calmly, point out the
> fact of it, and the effect, it might be more effective.
> Hate breeds hate.  No matter where it starts, we each
> have a responsibility to break the chain of hate.
> 
I have tried simple, calm explanations, Mark. I'm *still* trying.
It just doesn't work with some people. They can't be told; they
must be shown. I wish that weren't the case, but that's reality.
Some people just don't want to hear it, Mark.

> It is not racist to express the wish to visit retribution on your
> tormentors.  If you can manage to restrict the impact of your
> attitudes and programs to those whom you can show have done you
> harm, then I can have no objection in principle.  But you have
> not usually been so selective in your targets.  You have thrown
> your net over all "whites" in past postings.

Frankly, I recall no such blanket indictment of the entire Caucasian
race coming from me; that doesn't even sound like me. In any case,
I *think* I've made the point above, but for emphasis, will try it 
again here:
This is *not* about retribution, retaliation, revenge, payback,
etcetera. This is about getting people to see the evil that they do
and getting them to stop. Nothing more, nothing less.

> Secondly, your proposed retribution is still a bad idea on
> pragmatic grounds.  Racism is fundamentally an attempt to
> objectify a group of people on irrelevant grounds.  It is hard 
> to see how your policy of retribution can have the effect of
> convincing offenders of the error of their ways, if that is
> indeed your goal.  Since your target is still an abstract 
> group of "racists", your attitude shares the same attribute 
> of objectification with your enemies.

You may be right.  You may not.  We'll probably never know.

> Also, by analogy, it is hard to see how shouting in the face of
> those who shout in yours will somehow cause them to lower their
> voices.  On the contrary, it would seem designed to escalate the
> volume level.

you may be right about that, too. On the other hand, whispers from
the oppressed are seldom heard, much less heeded.

> I would hope that we two can keep the volume down below screaming.
> For my part, I will try to express my opinions in moderate tones.  

Fair enough. So will I.
G.

--
Gregory Alan Gross      Welcome to life, where no good deed goes unpunished.
San Diego Union-Tribune         (619) 293-1270 (voice)
P.O. Box 191                    (619) 293-2333 (fax)
San Diego, CA 92112-4106        galan@netlink.cts.com (Internet)