HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: platt@watson.ibm.com (Daniel E. Platt)
Subject: Re: Academic careers
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 21:07:32 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

In article <75484@hydra.gatech.EDU>, gt3639d@prism.gatech.EDU (Patricia Anne Willice) writes:
|> I have been reading much about the bleak outlook for new PhDs in
|> CS, but what about other fields of engineering, such as ME or
|> Material Science?
|> -- 
|> Trish Willice
|> Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
|> uucp:	  ...!{decvax,hplabs,ncar,purdue,rutgers}!gatech!prism!gt3639d
|> Internet: gt3639d@prism.gatech.edu

In Chemical and Engineering News (weekly publication of the American Chemical
Society), employment of chemists is down or flat -- particularly at the PhD level.
In physics, employment is down both in academia and in industry.  Its just a 
bleak picture.

Any other comments are pretty much extrapolation and speculation, it seems.
Academic funding is way off; state and federal subsidization of education
is down (thinking of CA, NY, OH, and IL, to name a few I can think of).
Many of the industrial research centers have cut back on their basic
funding research, or cut back on research, period.

Bright spots -- the National Science Board has received lots of input, not
only from physicists but also from chemists (What's News -- from American
Physical society, and this weeks C&E News from the American Chemical Society)
and industry leaders who indicate that the basic research support in
universities becomes even more important for industry as they tend to develop
more focused research programs that doesn't include potentially beneficial
blue-sky basic research, and as a place to develop new talent for industrial
research.  They did indicate that some mechanism for fostering closer ties
between academia and industry was important, but that it would be disasterous
to require academia to adapt the same focus as industry and to fail to fund
basic research.  We also have a new administration coming in...

However, all of this has to be paid out of money that government(s)
can ill afford to spend.

Dan

-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Daniel E. Platt                                      platt@watson.ibm.com
The views expressed here do not necessarily reflect those of my employer.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: tjfeue@bb1t.monsanto.com
Subject: Re: Curious ... (about Fabrikant)
Organization: Monsanto Company, St. Louis, MO
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 17:50:16 GMT

In article <4f1mU4y00WB90MWW5z@andrew.cmu.edu>, Mayuram Krishnan 
<mk4f+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
> Hi! 
> 
> Any new developments on Concordia case ?
> Obviously I am talking about THE Fabrikant's case.
> Is the hearing done ?
> Have they started looking into the matters from university side ?
> I guess it will be interesting to know the outcome.

I just read the article in MacLeans magazine.  The investigation 
into his allegations was suspended by the University due to the
murder trial.  The article describes how he coldly walked through
the building carrying *3* pistols (Two small 'autos and a 38 revolver)
and calmly just walked up to the victims and pumped bullets into them
at point blank range.  Either Swamy or Sankar (I can't remember which
and I don't have the article in front of me but you know, one of "the 
parasites" ;-) locked himself in his office when he heard the shots (and 
probably either saw or assumed who was comming).  It also *DOES* look 
like there is *SOME* truth to Fabrikant's allegations (either Swamy or
Sankar's rate of publication went *UP* upon becomming the department
head) but the Rector of the University said that he only used to 
get fiesty whenever his contract was comming up for review.  
He also said that Fabrikant would do stuff like walk up to someone 
and ask if they wanted to search him to see if he had a gun on him 
and then say something like "You know that I might".  The article
quoted Fabrikant as telling them that he was practically thrown
out of the Soviet Union.  Why doesn't this come as a suprise?

It's ironic that his field of expertise is in Fracture Mechanics.
Too bad the dispicable bastard didn't see it comming before he 
"snapped".

Ted Feuerbach - Scientific Systems Consultant
Disclaimer:     Monsanto didn't say this, I did!
Stupid Quote:   Money is simply alcohol in a 
                more easily transportable form.
                                           - Me
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: samitch@cs.sandia.gov (Scott A. Mitchell)
Subject: Re: Academic jobs
Organization: Sandia National Laboratories, Albuquerque, NM
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 92 18:20:03 GMT


Some information about employment and citizenship
in Mathematics can be gained
from the "Notices of the American Mathematical Society",
November 1992, Volume 39, Number 9.
They give some statistics about where foreign and U.S. 
PhD students graduating from U.S. institutions found
or are looking for employment.  The following is paraphrased.

1050 doctorates were granted from July 1, 1991 through June 30, 1992,
in the "Mathematical Sciences" (includes some 
Operations Research, etc, but mostly math ).
Of these 1050 people recieving the doctorates, 428 are U.S. citizens,
and 584 are foreign, and 38 are unknown.

Of the 584 known foreigners:

53% have U.S. jobs, 
24% have foreign jobs,
13% are looking for employment (unemployed),
1% are *not* looking for employment, 
5% are unknown status with U.S. address, and 
4% are unknown status with foreign address.

Similar statistics for U.S. citizens are provided.
Some information is given about the "Region of Citizenship",
but individual countries besides the U.S. and Canada are not mentioned.

The Notices contains much more information about 
employment by thesis area, etc, and also how the current year statistics
vary from previous years.


  - Scott Mitchell


Newsgroups: sci.research.careers,soc.culture.british,soc.culture.canada
From: dj@ekcolor.ssd.kodak.com (Dave Jones)
Subject: Re: In your school?
Organization: Vonnegut Tent Rentals, Inc.
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 92 15:00:01 GMT

LAURENCE GODFREY (godfrey@sscvx1.ssc.gov) wrote:
> (re the shooting spree at Concordia University)
> On the contrary, I would
> suggest that the Concordia people probably got what they deserved.
> 
I seem to remember that some of the victims were students.  If you think
that their deaths were justified then you have a very warped viewpoint
indeed, far more than is indicated by thinking that a dispute with faculty
authorities can be resolved by blazing away with a hunting rifle.

This is a new low in the Godfrey saga.  Take a pill.  Take a holiday.

--
||I dreamed I met a Yadallean          |(parody in progress, apologies to
||A most confusing man....             | Tim Rice & Andrew Lloyd Webber)
||------------------------------------------------------------------------
||Dave Jones (dj@ekcolor.ssd.kodak.com)|Eastman Kodak Co. Rochester, NY  |
Xref: sparky sci.research.careers:1528 soc.culture.british:16259 soc.culture.canada:8737
From: godfrey@sscvx1.ssc.gov (LAURENCE GODFREY)
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers,soc.culture.british,soc.culture.canada
Subject: Re: In your school?
Date: 22 Nov 92 01:14:00 GMT
Organization: Superconducting Super Collider Laboratory
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.4-b1

In article <92326.0035432893684@QUCDN.QueensU.CA>, andy <2893684@QUCDN.QueensU.CA>           writes...
>In article <17NOV199216535151@sscvx1.ssc.gov>, godfrey@sscvx1.ssc.gov (LAURENCE
>GODFREY) says:
>>
>>In article <1992Nov17.150001.29664@pixel.kodak.com>, dj@ekcolor.ssd.kodak.com
>>(Dave Jones)     writes...
>>>LAURENCE GODFREY (godfrey@sscvx1.ssc.gov) wrote:
>>>> (re the shooting spree at Concordia University)
>>>> On the contrary, I would
>>>> suggest that the Concordia people probably got what they deserved.
>>>>
>>>I seem to remember that some of the victims were students.  If you think
>>>that their deaths were justified then you have a very warped viewpoint
>>>indeed, far more than is indicated by thinking that a dispute with faculty
>>>authorities can be resolved by blazing away with a hunting rifle.
>>>
>>>This is a new low in the Godfrey saga.  Take a pill.  Take a holiday.
>>>
>>>--
>>>||I dreamed I met a Yadallean          |(parody in progress, apologies to
>>>||A most confusing man....             | Tim Rice & Andrew Lloyd Webber)
>>>||------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>||Dave Jones (dj@ekcolor.ssd.kodak.com)|Eastman Kodak Co. Rochester, NY  |
>>
>>You are wrong, I'm afraid.  Fabrikant shot only those members of staff
>>involved in his dispute.
>>
>>Laurence
> 
>Oh, well that makes it alright then. Are your colleagues aware of this rather
>cold, almost endorsational approach to murdering colleagues who you perceive
>have done you an injustice?

I couldn't say really, they have all been shot.

Laurence
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: frenkel@stcst1.mrl.uiuc.edu (David Frenkel)
Subject: Re: Bleak news from the academic job market
Organization: Dept of Physics, Univ of Illinois, Urbana
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1992 02:19:12 GMT

In article <1992Nov23.032848.3124@cs.sfu.ca> mcdonald@cs.sfu.ca (Ken Mcdonald) writes:
>
>Thousands of students are begging to spend years as a Ph.D.
>student--because they can't get a good job with a B.Sc.! ...
>(To be more precise, my experience indicates that enrolment in graduate
>studies in C.S. has been driven far more by the desire to get a good
>job than by a love of knowledge.)

   I do not know if this is true of CS, but it surely does not
   apply to all the fields in graduate schools.
   I am quite sure that at least upon entering the graduate school,
   majority of mathematicians and physicists are geniunely
   interested in their subjects and, yes, 'love of knowledge'.
   (If CS is not like that, drop the S.)

   I am sure enough people will keep 'begging to spend years as a PhD'
   in those fields no matter what the employment situation.
   They have done it in the 17th, 18th, and 19th centuries, and will
   keep doing so in the 21st.
   There is nothing unreasonable in asking that departments -- now that
   most faculty have realized that leaner times are ahead -- inform
   students of possible difficulties upon graduation, but beyond
   that it is all one's own choice.

-- 
David Frenkel                        | e-mail:   frenkel@stcst1.mrl.uiuc.edu 
Department of Physics,               | 
University of Illinois at            |
Urbana-Champaign, Urbana, IL, USA    |
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: godfrey@sscvx1.ssc.gov (LAURENCE GODFREY)
Subject: Re: wanting something TOO MUCH!
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.4-b1  
Organization: Superconducting Super Collider Laboratory
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1992 01:50:00 GMT

In article <1992Nov20.194642.16297@Princeton.EDU>, lseltzer@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Linda Ann writes...
>>Someone wants something from another person really badly.  They are
>>willing to do anything to please this other person.  This other person
>>does nothing but abuse them and take advantage of them and their
>>desires.  Even after loads of abuse, the first person continues to try
>>to please and does everything in their power to make the other person
>>happy.
> 
>I agree with you and I do not condone what Fabricant did.  It really
>seems that there was some really poor management occurring on the part
>of the administrators and department chair.  After all, suppose you
>have an employee who is incredibly intelligent and productive, but who
>has a tendency to have a bad temper or to have emotional problems.
>Do you insult, slight, and provoke the person, or do you give him
>a nice office with a big window and a big title, buy him a few perks
>every year, leave him alone to do his thing, and try to smooth out
>any disagreements he gets into?  Also, consider the country and culture
>Fabricant comes from.  No way would a professor with his credentials
>be treated the way he was treated in Russia.

Come now, let's not beat about the bush.  It is quite evident that some members
of the faculty and admin at Concordia behaved disgracefully, dishonourably
and with a thorough lack of integrity.  Also, the rest of your posting is
rather condescending towards Fabrikant who apparently did not demand a fancy
office or a lot of operks, but simply academic integrity from his department's
faculty.  Whatever the state of Fabrikant's mind, and it appears that he was
less than stable, it required a lot of injustice and provocation to drive
him to murdering his colleagues and i have yet to see any evidence that
anyone really cares about this aspect of the case.  It is evident that
Fabrikant is doing his best to have these matters brought into the open
in his forthcoming trial, having apparently come to believe that anyone
would care a toss if the truth were to be revealed.  It is also evident 
that he will not succeed, as the court is only interested (quite properly)
in establishing whether or not he shot the people concerned.  I suppose
the time for consideration of his motives is when he pleads mitigating
circumstances, but I understand that instead he plans to plead not guilty.

Anyway, from what I've seen of Canadian academic practise, I'm quite sure
that the last thing anyone wants is for the truth to be told about Concordia,
and I'm quite certain that if it were to be told then the Canadians would
simply ignore it.

Laurence
From: aboelaze@cs.yorku.ca (Mokhtar Aboelaze)
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
Subject: Re: Bleak news from the academic job market
Keywords: Momma, don't let your babies grow up to be scientists...
Date: 17 Nov 92 20:00:27 GMT
Article-I.D.: yetti.1561
Organization: York University, Dept. of Computer Science

>
>>watanabe@cs.uiuc.edu (Larry Watanabe) writes:
>>.... previous deleted for sake of brevity
>
>>>Why don't 50% of us start our own high-tech companies and make
>>>a few million?

Does any body know of any good books about this subject ?

I am not talking about how to start your own business type of books.
What I am talking about is successes and faliures of previous attempts
probably with some analysis about why did they succeed or fail ?

I remember reading a review about such a book (spinoffs MIT),
but I can't recall where did I read this review.

--Mokhtar Aboelaze

Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: gillies@cs.uiuc.edu (Don Gillies)
Subject: wanting something TOO MUCH!
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept. of Comp. Sci., Urbana, IL
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 17:50:07 GMT

DISCLAIMER.  I don't condone what fabrikant did, nor do I condone
violence in the course of your profession.  But the following is an
interesting philisophical point to consider.  I think many people may
be thinking inconsistently about these issues.

------------ 
Picture this.

Someone wants something from another person really badly.  They are
willing to do anything to please this other person.  This other person
does nothing but abuse them and take advantage of them and their
desires.  Even after loads of abuse, the first person continues to try
to please and does everything in their power to make the other person
happy.

Am I talking about a battered wife and her abusive husband?

How does this differ from a battered scholar and his/her abusive
department head / tenure committee?

Some people in life will die without love.  It appears that other
people in life will die without tenure.

The courts have acquitted, in some instances, women who kill their
abusive husbands.  For some people, academia / job is their strongest
love in life, stronger than their love for their mate.  When you love
something this strongly, you lay yourself open for abuse.  How do you
reconcile the many jury acquittals of wives who kill their husbands,
with the statement, posted here recently:

	"Nobody is justified in doing harm to their colleagues in the
	course of their professional careers, PERIOD!"

I guess the moral is: If you want to stay out of trouble, do not abuse
other people, PERIOD.

- Don
-- 



Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: sterling@leland.Stanford.EDU (brian sterling)
Subject: Affirmative Action Questionaires
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 92 00:18:48 GMT

I have a question about the AA questionaires that colleges are required
to ask you to fill out when you apply for a job.  They always claim that
these will not be used in evaluating you for employment.  Does anyone
know whether these are ever used for employment purposes (rather than for
statistical analysis of the pool of applicants)?  Also, they often claim
that these questionaires are voluntary.  If you don't return it, will it
affect your chance of getting the job?

I don't want to start a discussion about affirmative action, but let me just
say that I'm looking forward to the day when people will be judged on their
abilities and potential and not on the color of their skin.

brian
sterling@leland.stanford.edu

Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: andersmh@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (ANDERSON  MIKE HOWARD)
Subject: Re: Bleak news from the academic job market
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 17:28:35 GMT

In article <1eg4r0INN5cn@emory.mathcs.emory.edu> vicki@mathcs.emory.edu (Vicki Powers) writes:
>
>I don't understand your point here.  I went to graduate school because I
>wanted to be an academic mathematician.  There was no choice - I couldn't
>have a career (my chosen career) without a Ph.D.  For me it was a bonus
>that I got paid to be a teaching assistant while studying mathematics.
>And it wasn't the government that was making a killing - I went to a private
>university (Cornell) - and I wasn't a "high-tech" employee, I was a teaching
>assistant.  It could be argued that Cornell was exploiting me by paying me
>"slave wages", but in return I got a Ph.D so I considered it a good bargain.
>Noone forced me to work there, in fact there were lots of people who applied
>who were not admitted.  I was told before I accepted what my duties would be
>and how much I would be paid, also how many years I would be supported.  I
>could have refused if I didn't like the conditions.
>
>  Vicki
>
I think mathematics is more like the liberal arts fields since the
gov't doesn't put a lot of funding in that direction.  There isn't
a lot of RA stipends around.  However I see similar exploitation
with the TAs.  I have a friend in history and the TAs teach the
entire course unaided.  For 6k, the administration is getting
what they should have to pay a professor to do at 35k, and that's
why they want graduate students.  My contention is that they should
combine the salarys of a few graduate students and create a fulltime
position (and maybe get rid of an administrator or ten).  The number
of graduate students would have to decrease.  The very system that you
are exhalting is also ruining your chances of realizing your career.

I have no problem with paying graduate students for their services.  The
problem I have is that money is diverted away from fulltime jobs to
temporary low paying jobs, namely graduate students, which has three
effects: 1) it devalues the field; 2) decreases the number of permanent
positions, and the worst of all; 3) it leads to an oversupply.  In every
field I know of that grants PHD's there is a disgusting oversupply.  It
also seems that most graduate students refuse to believe it until they 
are looking for a job.

Mike

Xref: sparky sci.research.careers:1524 soc.culture.british:16243 soc.culture.canada:8729
Organization: Queen's University at Kingston
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1992 00:45:51 EST
From: andy <2893684@QUCDN.QueensU.CA>
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers,soc.culture.british,soc.culture.canada
Subject: Re: In your school?
 <17NOV199201181181@sscvx1.ssc.gov> <1992Nov18.215154.579@philmtl.philips.ca>
 <1992Nov19.004914.12138@netcom.com> <19NOV199217520247@sscvx1.ssc.gov>

In article <19NOV199217520247@sscvx1.ssc.gov>, godfrey@sscvx1.ssc.gov (LAURENCE
GODFREY) says:
>
>In article <1992Nov19.004914.12138@netcom.com>, sue@netcom.com (Sue Miller)
>writes...
>>In article <1992Nov18.215154.579@philmtl.philips.ca> ray@philmtl.philips.ca
>(Ray Dunn) writes:
>>>In refd article, godfrey@sscvx1.ssc.gov (LAURENCE GODFREY) writes:
>>>>I think you have it the wrong way around - the injstice comes
>>>>before the complaints, not the other way around.  On the contrary, I would
>>>>suggest that the Concordia people probably got what they deserved.
>>>
>>>I responded to Godfrey by email on this, but I think public attention
>>>should be drawn to the fact that he believes that the four Concordia
>>>professors deserved to be murdered and the secretary deserved to be shot.
>>>
>>>If anyone has any personal knowledge that might help to set our minds at
>>>rest on this matter, I'd appreciate it if they'd contact me.
>>
>>
>>Maybe I'm being absurdly simplistic, but it seems to me that no one
>>deserves to be shot.  For any reason.
>>
>>
>Not Sadam, nor Adolf, nor Bundy?
>
>Laurence

Certainly not colleagues or supervisors in an academic dispute.
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: miller@pioneer.arc.nasa.gov (Wayne O. Miller FFR)
Subject: Academic Jobs: Mechanical Engineers
Summary: Ouch!
Keywords: Swim upstream like Salmonboy
Organization: NASA Ames Res. Ctr. Mtn Vw CA 94035
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 17:20:44 GMT


There have been lots of postings about the tough academic job
market for C.S. Ph.D.s.  I would just like to add that, from
personal experience, the Mechanical Engineering academic job
market is just as tight.  I applied for several positions
in spring.  The most disturbing single data point was over
400 applicants for a single position at U. Va.  From talking
to friends who are on the inside, there are usually over 200
applicants per position.  Perhaps 10% get a second look, and
perhaps 5 will be offered a visit.

As for me, I'm still waiting to buy that tweed blazer and pipe.




Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: solman@athena.mit.edu (Jason W Solinsky)
Subject: Re: Bleak news from the academic job market
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1992 05:23:44 GMT

In article <1992Nov23.033526.3222@cs.sfu.ca>, mcdonald@cs.sfu.ca (Ken Mcdonald) writes:
|> 
|> From a previous article:
|> >>>
|> It is the Universities' job to do as much research as possible for the
|> smallest amount of money. The research system in this country was not put
|> in place for the benefit of a few thousand graduate students. It exists for
|> the benefit of 240 million people. If the University decreased the number of
|> PhDs and hired more graduate students, there would be two effects.
|>  
|> A) 240 million people would be wasting money so that they Universities could
|> carry out these social engineering practices for the benefit of a handful of
|> people. Meanwhile the product of the quantity and quality of the research
|> would decrease significantly.
|>  
|> B) Lots of incomming graduate students who REALLY WANT to become graduate
|> students would be denied the opportunity and left out in the cold.
|> <<<
|> 
|> It amuses me to see free market arguments (supply and demand, full
|> competition, opposition to "social engineering") being used to support
|> what is most manifestly NOT a free-market institution.

Look up there and find something based on there being a free market.
There isn't anything.

I note the Research was CREATED to BENEFIT the nation. It has nothing to do with
a free market, only with maximizing efficiency. Implementing the proposed plan
would kill efficiency in an effort to implement somebody's social engineering
programs. Read my posts before you comment on them in the future.

Jason W. Solinsky