HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: chuq@Apple.COM (Chuq Von Rospach)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: Rejection Slips
Date: 19 Dec 92 17:01:17 GMT
Organization: Pooh Corner Country Club -- A Planned Community

bjones@denitqm.uswest.com (Brent Jones) writes:

>>	I can almost see why you would waste your time by writing
>>	this, but I cannot even comprehend why you would waste mine,
>>	by sending it to me.

>I don't think you need to maintain the anonymity of someone who wrote a
>rejection letter like this

If I could make a guess, it's probably WEIRD TALES, and George Scithers.
He's well known for his crotchetyness, and this seems like his style.

>Given that the writer has sent a clean, properly formatted manuscript to an
>appropriate journal or magazine, and that the writer has done the research
>and *knows* the magazine publishes the style of writing he or she produces,
>there is no excuse for a magazine that accepts unsolicited submissions
>to insult a writer's efforts in this way.

Which, by the way, excludes about 80% of the typical slush pile right off
the bat.

-- 
            Chuq "IMHO" Von Rospach, ESD Support & Training (DAL/AUX)
                      Member, SFWA =+= Editor, OtherRealms
                chuq@apple.com | GEnie: MAC.BIGOT | ALink:CHUQ 

                       Sterling Holloway: We'll miss you.
From: curtis@cs.berkeley.edu (Curtis Yarvin)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: support for the arts in the US
Date: 12 Dec 1992 05:29:29 GMT
Organization: UC Berkeley CS Dept.
NNTP-Posting-Host: cobra.cs.berkeley.edu

In article <tfo3udg@zola.esd.sgi.com> rmr@annexia.esd.sgi.com (Robert M. Reimann) writes:
>
>> I dunno--my main problem with government support for literature is that
>> support is control.  If you have a benevolent government, the control may
>> not be exercised, but it exists none the less.
>
>The limit of that control is denying funding, which
>simply leaves the artist or writer to search elsewhere.

Not really; it often happens that government-funded competition in a
niche field is enough to drive the rest of the pack off the cliff.
There are already damn few enough publishers who make a profit off
lit; how many could go ten rounds in the ring with Uncle Sam?  When
your competitor gets his kibble in a bowl and you have to go
scavenging through the dumpsters, it's easy to see who'll get fat
and who'll end up an exclamation point on the lane divider of life.

c
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: johnh@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (John J Humpal)
Subject: Re: Publishers of the wierd... info request
Organization: HAC - Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 18:13:39 GMT

In article <1992Dec17.213146.1@hamp.hampshire.edu> bgardner@hamp.hampshire.edu writes:
>Hi :)
>I'm a writer who writes really wierd things... like as in my stuff has
>been compared to Beckett and Albee and Joyce (depending on what I'm writing)
>and I would like to start being published now.  Every one who has ever read
>my work has loved it (even those who hate me), but I didn't think I was ready
>until this point.  But now the problem is finding publishers... from looking
>over and over at the Writers Market I can not find any one who seems avant
>garde enough... is that a failing on the part of the listers, or are there

	I don't see how you can know what is and isn't "avant-garde" by
looking at the Writer's Market.  Why don't you run on down to the library
and check out the lit journals directly.  If your library doesn't carry
anything to your liking, you *must* write to the journals for a back
issue, which is usually available at nominal cost.
	Talent and confidence are not enough to get your stuff published.
You must know your market.  And don't assume that your stuff is too weird,
avant-garde, or advanced or whatever.  Believe me, some of the small press
journals which specialize in experimental lit have put out some very
outlandish stuff.  There really is nothing new under the sun, however.
-- 
-John

John J. Humpal -- johnh@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu -- short .sig, std. disclaimer

Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: geoffg@sco.COM (Geoff Galitz)
Subject: Re: LIBRARIES
Organization: The Santa Cruz Operation, Inc.
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 23:47:43 GMT


In article <1992Dec16.190509.20499@netcom.com> horen@netcom.com (Jonathan B. Horen -- [408] 736-3923) writes:
>In article <BzCtKt.Cz9@nocusuhs.nnmc.navy.mil> yoshi@nocusuhs.nnmc.navy.mil (D M Yoshikami) writes:
>
>[informative posting deleted only for brevity's sake]
>
>I would like to add that increasingly, libraries are permitting remote access
>to their computerized catalogs, via modem -- the Sunnyvale (CA) Public Library
>is one such critter. Here, I can perform a limited number of commands (search
>by title, author, subject; display entries, # of copies), but cannot (yet)
>reserve books or access inter-library databases.
>
>How about others? Also, does anyone know of online, ASCII-format collections
>available for browsing/ftp/etc. over the Internet?
>
>I know, for example, that one can ftp to ftp.uu.net and find a lot of
>interesting stuff in the /docs directory...
>
>
>Jonathan B. Horen
>Sun System Administrator/Sr. Technical Writer
>tel: (408) 736-3923 | email: horen@netcom.com



	Here in Santa Cruz, you can access the catalogues, reserve
books, and request an inter-library loan.

	There is also a computerized periodical database in the 
Monterey Bay Area that works by modem, though I believe only libraries
currently have access.

-geoff

-- 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
"Why don't you ask them?  You'll probably get just as a fanciful answer
from them, as our Bible gives us."   
	- Bishop Jose de Acosta on the origin of the Native Americans
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
         Geoff Galitz    geoffg@sco.com ** or ** galitz@igc.org
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: curtis@cs.berkeley.edu (Curtis Yarvin)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: support for the arts in the US
Date: 12 Dec 1992 06:11:10 GMT
Organization: UC Berkeley CS Dept.
NNTP-Posting-Host: cobra.cs.berkeley.edu

In article <1992Dec10.141204.13258@syma.sussex.ac.uk> mapd1@syma.sussex.ac.uk (Nigel Ling) writes:
>
>Well, excuse me for saying so, but this is *not* what literature is.
>Literature is art, not necessarily what the majority prefer to read.

Oh?  And who are you to decide which is which?

But even were it possible to define what is literature and what
is crap, fund the former and burn the latter, we could not
agree.  We have a fundamental moral conflict, which cannot be
resolved by argument.

You believe that art has intrinsic value.

I believe that art is only valuable insofar as it makes people
happy.(*)

Each of us, no doubt, is quite unable to understand how the
other could believe something so stupid.

c
*(And I don't mean in the Norman Rockwell sense; anything you
enjoy looking at is, by definition, making you happy.)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: elle@kimbark.uchicago.edu (Ellen Keyne Seebacher)
Subject: Re: Scripts
Reply-To: elle@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 20:17:52 GMT

[name deleted to protect the guilty]
>... looking from any internet or FTP sites that hold screenplays.  All
>I've gotten so far is Star Wars screenplays and Monty Python.

I find it somewhat distressing that someone in misc.writing, of 
all places, would be asking for help in violating other writers'
copyrights.  Dave Barry and Douglas Adams, among others, have not
appreciated the massive electronic copying of their work without
authorization or payment.

Note that maintainers of such FTP sites as those mentioned above may
well be liable for prosecution.  Don't involve yourself in this, please.

--
Ellen Keyne Seebacher              elle@midway.uchicago.edu

  "Writing is easy.  All you have to do is stare at a piece of paper 
   until your forehead bleeds."  --Douglas Adams
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: johnh@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (John J Humpal)
Subject: Re: support for the arts in the US
Organization: HAC - Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 03:15:50 GMT

In article <1glpalINNgik@agate.berkeley.edu> curtis@cs.berkeley.edu (Curtis Yarvin) writes:
>>	My goodness.  Who ever said that libraries were only for the poor?
>
>I must thank the sewer sprites of Baltimore that I somehow escaped from
>that place.

	Hmm.  Seems like the feeling is becoming mutual.

>There's lead in them thar steam leaks.  If I'd spent more
>than a year at Johns Hopkins I believe that to this day the inside of
>my skull would be plated with a fine film of solder.
>
>And lead, they say, corrodes the mind.  The first sign is the infamous
>"Homewood Shamble," but rot in the imagination cannot be far behind.
>Fortunately I am a liberal type and well willing to compensate for the
>handicaps of other; so I shall introduce you to the concept of a
>"private library," which is exactly the same as yer vaunted public
>library in all respects, save that it is not financed at gunpoint, but
>in the same way as your local racquetball club, solder-scraping plan,
>or slicemonger trade school.
>
	Ah, what elegant sputum.  What luxurious flummery.  What a waste
of bandwidth.  If you would like to "introduce" the concept of the
private library, then do so.  I'm just afraid that by the time you
finish thumbing through your thesaurus for that oh-so-glib bon mot, your
audience will have fallen asleep at the console and your wit will be
-- sigh -- wasted.  The loss, the loss...
-- 
-John

John J. Humpal -- johnh@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu -- short .sig, std. disclaimer
From: jas@ISI.EDU (Jeff Sullivan)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: Scripts
Date: 18 Dec 92 21:36:45 GMT
	<1992Dec17.201752.246@midway.uchicago.edu>
Organization: USC-ISI
In-reply-to: elle@kimbark.uchicago.edu's message of 17 Dec 92 20:17:52 GMT

In article <1992Dec17.201752.246@midway.uchicago.edu> elle@kimbark.uchicago.edu (Ellen Keyne Seebacher) writes:

>[name deleted to protect the guilty]
>>... looking from any internet or FTP sites that hold screenplays.  All
>>I've gotten so far is Star Wars screenplays and Monty Python.
>
>I find it somewhat distressing that someone in misc.writing, of 
>all places, would be asking for help in violating other writers'
>copyrights.  Dave Barry and Douglas Adams, among others, have not
>appreciated the massive electronic copying of their work without
>authorization or payment.
>
>Note that maintainers of such FTP sites as those mentioned above may
>well be liable for prosecution.  Don't involve yourself in this, please.

DITTO!

jas
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jeffrey A. Sullivan             | Research Scientist et al.
jas@isi.edu (Internet)          | Information Sciences Institute
72511,402    (Compuserve)       | University of Southern California
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: mapd1@syma.sussex.ac.uk (Nigel Ling)
Subject: Re: support for the arts in the US
Organization: University of Sussex
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 11:22:39 GMT

In article <1gikq6INNra5@agate.berkeley.edu> curtis@cs.berkeley.edu (Curtis Yarvin) writes:

>>>
>>>If you want poor people to be able to read, you should give
>>>them money - not libraries.
>>
>
>When you spend X dollars on libraries for the poor, instead of giving
>the poor X dollars, what you are saying is:
>
>"You do not have enough money to spend on things you need, but we do not
>trust you to decide what things you need.  Therefore, instead of giving you
>money, which you would not spend wisely, we will give you what we think
>is best for you."
>
>If you approve of this attitude, probably the less said the better.

Wow! Why didn't anybody else think of this, especially all those
writers? The simple solutions are always the best eh?

Nigel



Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: Crawford_Kilian@mindlink.bc.ca (Crawford Kilian)
Subject: Re: support for the arts in the US
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 01:31:57 GMT

I tend to agree with Curtis Yarvin's hostility to government support for the
arts. As a Canadian writer working for the US (commercial) fiction market, I
don't get many breaks and don't expect them. I'm not a big fan of our Canada
Council, which is the de facto patron of a great many Canadian writers,
painters, and other artists.

But bear in mind that without the Canada Council we would be utterly swamped
by a tsunami of American crap. All it takes for an American publisher to
corner the Canadian market is to run the presses another 30 minutes. For a
Canadian publisher to compete is damn near impossible; the Americans can
underprice their product and drive the local publishers right out of
business.

As a Yanko-Canadian I am keenly aware that folks in the Old Country turn
stone blind whenever they look north. American narcissism (if not downright
solipsism) combined with enormous wealth makes it very hard for Canada to
maintain the separate identity which it does indeed possess. So we have
created institutions like the Canada Council and the CBC (both now under
steady attack by our Tory government) so we can get a word in edgewise in the
deafening uproar caused by our noisy neighbors. And institutions like those
are so much better than the market-driven equivalents in the US that most
Americans would be ecstatic to enjoy what we produce for ourselves in sheer
self-defence (note Canadian spelling!)


--
Crawford Kilian   Communications Department   Capilano College
North Vancouver BC Canada V7J 3H5
Usenet: Crawford_Kilian@mindlink.bc.ca
Internet: ckilian@first.etc.bc.ca

Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: Crawford_Kilian@mindlink.bc.ca (Crawford Kilian)
Subject: Re: support for the arts in the US
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 17:53:16 GMT

Here I've always thought I was a big philistine, bravely spurning government
grants I'd never get anyway, but following this thread has continued my
education...

If the market is really such an omnipotent arbiter for artists, why shouldn't
it also determine what happens in such areas as physics research and military
spending? If no one wants to buy Physical Review on the newsstands, why
should it appear? And if physicists, at least, want to read it, why not run
ads for cigarettes in it, instead of expecting taxpayers to cover the expense
of physicists indulging their bizarre private interest in the sex life of the
quark?

And why blow all that money on taxpayer-supported firearms? Why can't the
army pay its own way? After all, the whole point of a military is to protect
a way of life and national identity; doesn't art have the same goal, and
isn't it supposed to cover its own costs? So we could have millionaire
patrons who form their own armies and sell them to the highest bidder, just
as authors sell their work to whoever will buy it. Or, if that seems too
right-wing, bands of mercenaries could organize themselves and share the
proceeds of hiring out to customers (Condottieri R Us...).

The point of making money is to buy the time and freedom to do things that
don't make money--the things that really interest you because they enable you
to explore and express your real identity. (Unless, of course, you suffer
from arrested deveopment and your identity is completely entangled in making
money, period, for its own sake.) Art springs from expression of identity,
and sometimes it also becomes a marketable commodity (just like Evel
Knievel's stunts). That doesn't mean the only legitimate form of art *must*
be marketable.

Writers in particular should be aware that writing strictly for the market
means, essentially, writing pornography; not much else sells strictly on its
own merits. Even newspapers and magazines with current news must use their
editorial contents to lure people to read the ads between the stories. (And
in the case of newspapers, the ads are often for strip joints, "escort"
services, and other forms of slightly less self-deceiving prostitution.)


--
Crawford Kilian   Communications Department   Capilano College
North Vancouver BC Canada V7J 3H5
Usenet: Crawford_Kilian@mindlink.bc.ca
Internet: ckilian@first.etc.bc.ca

Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: johnh@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (John J Humpal)
Subject: Re: support for the arts in the US
Organization: HAC - Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 17:54:42 GMT

In article <1gikq6INNra5@agate.berkeley.edu> curtis@cs.berkeley.edu (Curtis Yarvin) writes:
>
>If you want poor people to be able to read, you should give
>them money - not libraries.
>

Mr. Yarvin later compounded his error by writing:
>
>When you spend X dollars on libraries for the poor, instead of giving
>the poor X dollars, what you are saying is:
>
>"You do not have enough money to spend on things you need, but we do not
>trust you to decide what things you need.  Therefore, instead of giving you
>money, which you would not spend wisely, we will give you what we think
>is best for you."
>
	My goodness.  Who ever said that libraries were only for the poor?
Do you believe that libraries are mere book repositories?  Perhaps you
ought to visit one.  Speak to a reference librarian.  You'll find that the
modern library does far more than simply lend books; it is an information
resource.  This may come as a surprise to you, but many people don't
maintain large, private book collections; many do not have any access to
the specialized information that a librarian can provide.  Public libraries
provide these services, and many others, to all of us.
	I see by your internet address that you are somehow connected
to Berkeley where you have, no doubt, had many occassions to make use of
that university's publicly funded library system.  I'd wager that you did
more than check out the latest Danielle Steele novel.  A question: if the
State were to give you a fistful of money and tell you that it was your
"share" of what was *not* spent on Berkeley's libraries, do you think it
would be enough to pay for all the published volumes, journals, periodicals,
and cataloging services the library once provided?  
>If you approve of this attitude, probably the less said the better.
>
	Ditto.



-- 
-John

John J. Humpal -- johnh@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu -- short .sig, std. disclaimer
From: rmr@sgi.com (Robert M. Reimann)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: Publishers of the wierd... info request
Date: 18 Dec 92 19:01:26 GMT
Organization: Technical Publications, Silicon Graphics, Inc.

bgardner@hamp.hampshire.edu writes:

>I'm a writer who writes really wierd things... 

>But now the problem is finding publishers... 

>...from looking
>over and over at the Writers Market I can not find any one who seems avant
>garde enough... is that a failing on the part of the listers, or are there
>truely no publishers out there that are willing to take a risk...

Get ahold of the _International Dictionary of
Small Presses and Little Magazines_.

I believe the publishing info. is listed in
the misc.writing recommended reading list
(an adjunct to the FAQ).


			Robert.
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: rmr@sgi.com (Robert M. Reimann)
Subject: Re: support for the arts in the US
Organization: Technical Publications, Silicon Graphics, Inc.
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 92 19:21:41 GMT

Have we beaten this to death yet?

curtis@cs.berkeley.edu (Curtis Yarvin) writes:
>rmr@sgi.com (Robert M. Reimann) writes:
>
>>And as I've already said, plenty of other countries
>>figured this [subsidizing art] out years ago.
>
>I hate to burn the butane on this newsgroup; but you say this as

If you're going to burn butane, a precious fossil
fuel, you might consider using it on a cogent
argument.  Yes, Europe, like any other set of
nation-states you care to examine, has its
dark side.  Big hairy deal.  Shall we therefore
do away with the Nobel Prize, the Ford Foundation
(Ford and GM both supplied machine parts to
Nazi Germany during the entirety of WWII), etc?

The answer is no.  If the best argument you can
come up with is that Europeans are bloodthirsty,
and therefore aren't somehow justified in supporting
their artists, you should stop while you're ahead.

>And when you're studying history, it's pretty easy to fall in
>love with old art.  

I wasn't talking about old art.  Old art was commissioned
by the Church and the aristocracy, as I've already
pointed out.  I acknowledge that some of these projects
were at the expense of oppressed people (indirectly).
But that was then, this is now.  You want to throw out
the baby with the bath water, apparently.

>One starts to think, bingo, culture equals
>civilization.  And such an idea being culture in itself, it
>makes its way into the seventh-grade social-studies books; and
>once planted there it is hard to uproot.
>
>I used to believe it, myself.

That's nice, but what's the point?  Culture is
culture.  Are you prepared to argue that art doesn't
affect civilization and vice-versa?  Art communicates
values and ideas.  Free exchange of ideas is the
cornerstone of *our* society, and "free" does not 
imply that you have to be wealthy or popular to
have your ideas heard.

>The measure of a civilization is not the art it produces.  The
>measure of a civilization is the happiness of its citizens.

Okay.  What's your point?  Western Europe includes
nations with some of the highest standards of 
living in the world, and the ones that aren't are not
in the state they are from spending too much attention
to the arts. (Say that ten times fast!)

>If the Sistine ceiling were painted in human blood, would you
>still pay a thousand lira to see it?

Uh, probably not.  Then again, you know me. :^)


			Robert.
From: curtis@cs.berkeley.edu (Curtis Yarvin)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: support for the arts in the US
Date: 12 Dec 1992 22:06:14 GMT
Organization: CS Dept. Snakepit - Do Not Feed.
NNTP-Posting-Host: cobra.cs.berkeley.edu

In article <1992Dec12.211457.21469@bmerh85.bnr.ca> nadeau@bnr.ca (Rheal Nadeau) writes:
>In article <1gc05sINNq1u@agate.berkeley.edu> curtis@cs.berkeley.edu (Curtis Yarvin) writes:
>>
>>If fifty-one percent of the population of Canada decided that
>>anyone with a post-consonant 'h' in their name should be sent
>>to a concentration camp, would you go?
>
>The old Libertarian analogy, based on the idea (clearly stated in
>Libertarian ideology) that money has the same basic value as Life,
>Liberty, And The Pursuit Of Happiness (to borrow a phrase from that
>country to the south of here).

May I mug you, sir?

All taxation, you see, is organized theft.  Pure and simple.
Now, the Libertarian position is that all theft is morally
wrong.  This is purest horse manure; as I explained elsewhere,
it is often justifiable and necessary.

You raise the example of education - a fine one.  Education is
a public good; public goods cannot be financed by anything
other than forcible theft.  And because my education was
financed thus I have an obligation to so finance other peoples'.

But an artist whose work I do not buy has not helped me at all;
why must I be forced to give him what I produce?

c
From: rmr@sgi.com (Robert M. Reimann)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: Publishers of the wierd... info request
Date: 19 Dec 92 01:21:03 GMT
Organization: Technical Publications, Silicon Graphics, Inc.

>Get ahold of the _International Dictionary of
>Small Presses and Little Magazines_.

That's "Directory", not "Dictionary", btw.


		Robert.
From: aq069@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Deborah Minkin)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: satire about American men
Date: 18 Dec 1992 00:28:20 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: slc10.ins.cwru.edu


I am in the process of writing a satire about American men and could use
your valuable anecdotes, comments, observations. This is a sequel to my
book "The Way of the Urban Samurai" to be released in Feb. 1993 by
Charles E. Tuttle, Co., Inc. The research for THAT book consisted of
a ten year marriage to a Japanese man plus my ex-mother-in-law's con-
stant complaining about my cooking and nagging until I bore a male
child. I need some outside help this time. Anonymity guaranteed.
soc.culture was much too political and vitriolic. Thanks!
Newsgroups: misc.writing