HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk (Jeremy Henderson)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Israeli Nazism?  (Arabs killing Arabs)
Date: 6 Jan 93 10:54:41 GMT
Organization: Edinburgh University

In article <1993Jan6.014248.10027@newshub.ccs.yorku.ca> wc4209@writer.yorku.ca (Irene Berkovich) writes:
~In article <C0EAKH.sI@techbook.com> gummitch@techbook.com (Jeff Frane) writes:

~      Syria's Hafez Assad ordered the massacre of approximately 10,000
~to 20,000 fellow Arabs in the city of Hama in around 1980.  I believe
~this town was an active Moslem Brotherhood area.  They would be quite
~similar in philosophy to the Hamas members that Israel recently
~expelled (note expelled, not butchered like in Syria).

I used to be under the impression that Israel aspires to be a civilised
democracy in the "western" sense. Now it is clear that as long as the 
Israeli regime is less brutal than that in say, Syria, or Iraq, or other
cradles of gentleness, that's ok. Why not try setting your sights just a
tiny bit higher?






-- 
===Jeremy Henderson===jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk=          

This message cost the net hundreds if not thousands of dollars.
Bloody good value if you ask me.
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:24670 soc.culture.turkish:13791 soc.rights.human:4723
From: kgivon@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (karen lee givon)
Subject: Re: jews as a race
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 02:56:50 GMT

In article <4908@copper.Denver.Colorado.EDU> aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Shaqeeqa) writes:
>In article <C0nDs8.DCC@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> kgivon@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (karen lee givon) writes:
>>
>>This is true for nearly all religions.  Most Muslims and Christians I
>>know do not follow all or even most of the rules and laws or their
>>religion.  Most Muslims I know drink, sleep around, rarely go to the
>>mosque or pray, don't fast during Ramadan, and some even eat pork.
>>All these people, however, call themselves Muslims.
>
>This may be true.  And it may be because of the influence of such a
>loosely structured society.  Though you have only associated with
>non-religious Muslims, it doesn't mean that all Muslims are like this.

I realize that all Muslims are not like this.  Obviously,  there are
religious Muslims who are strict and observant.

>I guess I am disturbed by your comments because they seem to somehow
>justify the fact that the non-religious Jews are excused for their
>lack of faith because this is true for "nearly all religions".  

I am not justifying it.  I was trying to point out that this happens in
all religions.  There are people (usually the majority) who do not
follow the religion that they are members of.

But
>don't misunderstand me here, I am not attacking you, only pointing
>something out.

So was I.
 
>This, however, is another topic of discussion and I do not want to be
>in the position to make judgements on others.  The point of the original
>poster, which you seemed to miss entirely, was that he viewed Judaism as
>a racist philosophy because it forbids Jews from marrying non-Jews.  

I don't see that as racist.  It's a matter of preservation.  When a Jew
in this country marries a Christian, Judaism is the religion that usually
takes the back seat.  
 

He
>stated that human love does not recognize such biased rules, and that
>Jews (religious) consider intermarriage to be a serious problem.  I can
>understand the fear of assimilation and other principles on this basis,
>but I do tend to agree with Elias, despite the appreciation and respect
>that I hold for religious Jews.

I don't want to sound rude here but, really, this is an internal matter.
It is our business who we can marry.  It's not a matter
of debate for non Jews. 

Also, the way I understand it, the only reason that Muslim men can marry
non Muslim women is because Islam is transmitted through the father, so
it is assumed that any child born will be Muslim.  I was also told that
Muslim women are not allowed to marry non Muslim men because a child will 
not be Muslim.          
 
>Anisa
>
>	"When the dust has cleared And victory denied A summit
>	too lofty River a little too wide If we keep our pride
>	Though paradise is lost We will pay the price But we
>	will not count the cost."
>
Keren
From: Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org>
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Date: 08 Jan 93 15:25 PST
Subject: Re: jews as a race
Nf-ID: #R:1993Jan6.1777.22118@channel1:-212706797:cdp:1483500318:000:1585
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!cpr    Jan  8 15:25:00 1993


Maxime Rodinson, a internationally known orientalist, French citizen
and author of numerous publications, was once asked whether he
was a Jew.

He answered: Yes, I am a Jew according to the Nazi definition of Jews,
which is quite similar to that used by the Israeli government.

This unusual answer is food for thought.

Of course the Nazi persecution of Jews was not based on the Jews
being a race, although the Nazis maintained they were. But their
policies are labelled racist.

It is claimed that Judaism is not racist, because non-Jews (Gentiles)
can convert to Judaism. This is only partly true, because the Jewish
rabbinical authorities are not very fond of converting Gentiles to Jews.
In fact conversion is a quite complicated process which requires
the person who converts to study the Jewish religion and accept
wholeheartedly its principles. A person born to a Jewish mother
however is not required to prove his faith. He may eat pork, and
violate all 613 Halakha precepts. But the rabbis consider him a Jew
nevertheless because of biological descent.

In fact therefore is is not inaccurate to call Judaism and its
political modern form Zionism, as racist phenomena, at least
in the current practices.

ReformJudaism has gone away from this racist practice to some extent.

My parents practiced Judaism. I married a non-Jewish woman. WWhen I
read pronouncements by Zionist leaders that assimilation is a
calamity compared to the Holocaust, I can vomit. Because such
statements are offensive to human love, which does not know
religious or ethnical borders.

Thanks,
Elias

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: cubsfan@camelot.bradley.edu (Michael Silverman)
Subject: A good new book on Israel
Keywords: book
Organization: Priests of the Temples of Syrinx
Date:  5 Jan 93 16:12:37 GMT

If anyone wants to read a good book on the current state of
Israel (since the elections last summer), I recommend
Yossi Melman's _The New Israelis_
(Carol Publishing Company, ISBN 1-55972-129-4)

This book is about as even handed as they come, not afraid to
criticize (or praise) Israel when criticism or praise is due.
The book deals with many subjects, including the rise of
religious fundamentalism in Israel, Zionism, and Israel's
relations with the Palestinians.


--
cubsfan@camelot.bradley.edu

"One likes to believe in the freedom of baseball" - Geddy Lee
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Subject: Re: israel vs. the world
Organization: Brown University Department of Computer Science
Distribution: talk
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 14:18:38 GMT

jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk (Jeremy Henderson) writes:
#dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) writes:
#~
#~jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk (Jeremy Henderson) writes:
#~#dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) writes:
#~#
#~## we still have you and Henderson to be our voice
#~## of reason and compassion.
#~#
#~# It's certainly a sad day when people need to be 
#~# reminded that shooting little girls is wrong.
#~
#~I think everybody knows that, and most people would agree the girl
#~wasn't shot on purpose. I am also sure that before the British
#~turned half of the German cities into burning infernos they took
#~care that all the little boys and girls would be evacuated.
#
#Same old silly arguments. Do I have to repeat that just because I was born
#in Britain I do not necessarily support, or bear any responsibility for, the
#actions of people who happened to be born in the same islands several decades
#earlier?

Well, you and other Israel bashers seem to think that it is legitimate
to blame a country for everything it has done during its history. So
what's the problem?

#Or are you making some kind of racial generalisation here?

Racial? You must be really running thin on arguments.

#As for the little girl, I think that most people know that firing a weapon in 
#the direction of children is a criminally irresponsible act that in most
#civilised countries would lead to a trial for manslaughter.

Some soldiers have been tried and arrested during the Intifada for
using excessive force. But, again, you just don't know what most of them
are facing. Drive a car with yellow plates into Gaza once and find
out.

-Danny Keren.

PS - any chance of getting rid of the bloody "~'s"?

Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:25179 soc.rights.human:4764
From: eggertj@moses.atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert x6127 g41)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.rights.human
Subject: Re: Israeli Expulsion of 418 Palestinians
Date: 12 Jan 93 03:36:36 GMT
	<EGGERTJ.93Jan6233425@moses.atc.ll.mit.edu>
	<1993Jan11.235813.4396@bony1.bony.com>
Reply-To: eggertj@atc.ll.mit.edu
Organization: MIT Lincoln Lab - Group 41

In article <1993Jan11.235813.4396@bony1.bony.com> jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni) writes:
>   The Hamas people were not expelled from Israel as part of a
>   re-election campaign or similar nonsense; they were expelled hard on
>   the heels of a spate of murders of Jews by Islamic Fundamentalists.

Notice the several problems with this: First, not all of those
expelled are Hamas members.  Second, the deportees were not shown to
be guilty of any crime, but seem to be just guilty of living in the
Occupied Territories after some murders took place.  No, the
deportations were not done for reasons of justice or guilt, but rather
for domestic political expediency.

>   You will note that the murder spree has stopped since the expulsions.
>   This supports the notion that the Israelis in fact removed the
>   guilty culprits.

I guess you didn't hear about the murder of the Shin Bet agent in
Jerusalem.  The cycle of violence has in fact not stopped.  So much
for removing the guilty culprits.

Your logic is flawed, also.  One could as well note that the Holocaust
has stopped since the US dropped the bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
This obviously supports the notion that the Japanese were responsible
for the Holocaust.  Not.
--
=Jim  eggertj@atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert)
From: marwang@bach.rutgers.edu (Marwan Gharaybeh)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: News from the occupied West Bank and Gaza Strip.
Date: 4 Jan 93 23:28:40 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein) writes:

>The death of a child is always a tragic event. It's truly shameful

So ask the Israeli blood thirsty government to stop using machine guns
against 9 year old civilians.

>that the girl's parents were more interested in her participating in
>violence against the Israelis than in her safety.

Can you prove that the parents of this girl did not ask her to stay
out of trouble ... What if this girl disobeyed her parents and went
down to the streets to fight the ugly oppressors. What if she was 
fighting for a principle that no one in the world would be able to
divert her from. 

>Here in America,
>such parents would be be prosecuted for, at the very least,
>endangering the welfare of their child.

Don't you dare compare America to the Nazi Zionists. The American "rule
over diversity" is unprecedented in history.

>Alan H. Stein   -----  AJIN   -----  astein@israel.nysernet.org

--Marwan
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:25205 soc.culture.arabic:6501 soc.culture.lebanon:5557
From: elie@sensors.njit.edu (Elie I. Mourad)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.arabic,soc.culture.lebanon
Subject: Re: Are Lebanese considered ARABS (J. LAWEN a PALESTINIAN)
Date: 12 Jan 93 12:48:30 GMT
Organization: New Jersey Institute of Technology, Newark, N.J.

In article <1993Jan12.061321.19660@mcs.kent.edu> rayes@Goat.mcs.kent.edu (Sandra Rayes) writes:
>In article <1993Jan11.120312.21797@njitgw.njit.edu> elie@sensors.njit.edu (Elie I. Mourad) writes:
>>In article <1993Jan11.065124.26726@mcs.kent.edu> rayes@Goat.mcs.kent.edu (Sandra Rayes) writes:
>
>For me, I hope those self-hating Lebanese Arabs will pick up a book of 
>Arabic poetry written a thousand years ago, or perhaps listen to a 
>tape of classic Fairuz and remind themselves that they have nothing 
>to be ashamed of.  I also hope they all become Muslims.

Does that include Islam a la Shiism ? Cause we already got private
TV stations broadcasting Persian programs in Lebanon, and Iran pumping
in lotsa money :-)
Those people don't particularly strike me as wanting to be Arabs :-)

>Sandra.

Elie.

--

                                 ________
________________________________/--------\______________________________________
From: shaig@vivaldi.think.com (Shai Guday)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Deportation vs. Murder
Date: 9 Jan 93 01:28:01
Organization: Thinking Machines Corporation, Cambridge MA, USA
Distribution: world
	<1ifungINNouq@life.ai.mit.edu> <1ihgn3INN1p1@early-bird.think.com>
	<1ikut9INNg1d@life.ai.mit.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vivaldi.think.com
In-reply-to: gwydion@gnu.ai.mit.edu's message of 8 Jan 1993 22:23:37 GMT

In article <1ikut9INNg1d@life.ai.mit.edu> gwydion@gnu.ai.mit.edu (Basalat Ali Raja) writes:

   In article <1ihgn3INN1p1@early-bird.think.com> shaig@Think.COM (Shai Guday) writes:

   >Very, especially when you consider that the majority of semites
   >do not constitute the majority of english speakers.  

   First, you have to prove that the majority of english speakers believe
   that anti-Semite actually means anti-Jew.  I remember when I was
   watching TV with a professional linguist.  This lady is Norwegian,
   although her husband is Jewish, and she has had very little exposure
   to the Arab culture.

I don't have to do anything of the sort.  I have already posted the
dictionary definition for the words (Webster's Collegiate).  If you
choose to refute the authority on the english language, do so by citing
what you consider to be a better one.  Not a Norwegian linguist, however
talented she might be.

   A Jewish person on TV labelled an Arab an anti-Semite.  In response to
   this, she turned to me and said, "How can they be anti-Semites?  They
   are Semites themselves!"  She, too considers anti-Semite to mean
   "people against Semites" and not just people against Jews.

   This, from a professional linguist.  Take your pick.

This simply shows that she is not as familiar with all the nuances of the
english language.  If you consider the dictionary to be in error,
simply write them.  I would be interested to hear the reply your are given.
Until you produce some source or reference that butresses your claim,
more than a foreign language linguist, I see no point in continuing this.

	Shai
--
Shai Guday              | Knowing martial arts allows one to remain calm when
OS Software Engineer    | confronted by idiots, secure in the knowledge that
Thinking Machines Corp. | you could dismember them easily, while you calmly
Cambridge, MA           | proceed to dismember them easily.
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:24880 talk.politics.soviet:10263 soc.rights.human:4731
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet,soc.rights.human
Followup-To: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: "news.admin.policy" shame parade.
Date: Wed, 06 Jan 93 20:36:00 EST
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world

In article <1993Jan6.214119.24520@sci34hub.sci.com> gary@sci34hub.sci.com (Gary Heston) writes:

>they were leaf sites with few other connections besides mn.org. I have no
>idea how well connected feline is, but I really doubt that I'll miss a percent
>or so of net traffic by having done this. 

Typical "news.admin.policy" fascism. When you have finished "disconnecting" 
I'd suggest you answer the points newspapers have raised below. 


      Armenian Soldiers Massacre Hundreds of Fleeing Families:

"The attackers killed most of the soldiers and volunteers defending the 
 women and children.  They then turned their guns on the terrified refugees.  
 The few survivors later described what happened: 'That's when the real 
 slaughter began,' said Azer Hajiev, one of the three soldiers to survive.  
 'The Armenians just shot and shot. And they came in and started carving 
 up people with their bayonets and knives.'  A 45-year-old man who had been 
 shot in the back  said:' We were walking through the brush. Then they opened 
 up on us and people were falling all around.  My wife fell, then my child."
 Thomas Goltz
 Sunday Times, 3/1/92

Armenian Raid Leaves Azeris Dead or Fleeing:

"...about 1,000 of Khojaly's 10,000 people were killed in Tuesdays attack. 
 Azerbaijani television showed truckloads of corpses being evacuated from 
 the Khocaly area."
 Brian Killen (Reuters)
 The Washington Times, 3/2/92

Atrocity Reports Horrify Azerbaijan :

"Azeri officials who returned from the seen to this town about nine miles 
 away brought back three dead children, the backs of their heads blown off...
 'Women and children had been scalped,' said Assad Faradzev, an aide to 
 Karabagh's Azeri governor.  Azeri television showed pictures of one 
 truckload of bodies brought to the Azeri town of Agdam, some with their 
 faces apparently scratched with knives or their eyes gouged out."
 Brian Killen (Reuters)
 The Washington Times, 3/3/92

Massacre By Armenians Being Reported:

"The Republic of Armenia reiterated denials that its militants had 
 killed 1,000 [Azeris]... But dozens of bodies scattered over the 
 area lent credence to Azerbaijani reports of a massacre."
 (Reuters)
 The New York Times, 3/3/92

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.'    (Sahak Melkonian)
From: naftaly@supergas.dazixco.ingr.com (Naftaly Stramer)
Subject: Re: Israel is responsible for evrything. ( was: Jeremy and kindler, gentler democracy)
Reply-To: naftaly@dazixco.ingr.com
Organization: Intergraph Electronics
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 00:22:31 GMT


In article <C0Fz2D.Hn8@newsflash.concordia.ca>, ilyess@ECE.Concordia.CA (Ilyess Bdira) writes:
>In article <17810@umd5.umd.edu> spinoza@next06wor.wam.umd.edu (Yon Bonnie Laird of Cairn Robbing) writes:
>>> 
>>> ~      Syria's Hafez Assad ordered the massacre of approximately 10,000
>>> ~to 20,000 fellow Arabs in the city of Hama in around 1980.  I believe
>
>and Israel must have cheered this move by Assad, I do not care if those 
>governments claim to be against Israel, but in reality they are the first
>line of defence for Israel...
>
>>> ~this town was an active Moslem Brotherhood area.  They would be quite
>
>which if they overthrew Assad would have caused Israel major problems..`


So now Israel has also the responsibility for every thing that is goinf on in 
the Midle East. Don't you think that Israel is also responsible for the snow 
that is falling in Lebanon, and must be condemned because the cold is painfull
for the citizens there?

>
>>> ~similar in philosophy to the Hamas members that Israel recently
>>> ~expelled (note expelled, not butchered like in Syria).
>
>Arab dictators do not need to cator to International opinion, they will be
>supported anyway. (see Tunisia, Egypt, Iraq in the 80's, Algeria).. The reason
>is of course what I said above.

What did you say above ???????


----

Naftaly Stramer 			    |   Intergraph Corporation
Internet: naftaly@dazixco.ingr.com          |   Electronics Division    
Voice: (303)581-2370  FAX: (303)581-9972    |   6101 Lookout Road, Suite A
Please excuse my English		    |   Boulder, CO 80301
From: "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com>
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: israel as asset
Date: 9 Jan 93 21:39:15 EST
Reply-To: "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com>
Distribution: talk
Organization: Channel 1 Communications

To: Michael Silverman

 MS> Perhaps if Israel had the world's largest petroleum
 MS> reserves, it too could pay its own way!

Most nations around the world lack petroleum reserves, but they
don't demand that the U.S. provide them aid at the rate of nearly
$1,000 per citizen per annum. They find creative ways to build
their economy on other bases.

There are two (among many) reasons why the level of U.S. aid to
Israel is so disturbing:

1. One can easily understand why Israel would need extraordinary
levels of aid at its beginning, when it was trying to get on its
feet. I don't begrudge that aid in the least. But Israel is now
almost 50 years old. Instead of growing more independent and
self-sufficient it is becoming more dependent on American aid,
not less. People are beginning to wonder if Israel will ever be
able to stand on its two feet and if the Zionist experiment
overall is a failure.

2. While receiving so much American aid Israelis are receiving
more social services than Americans. Americans are subsidizing
social services for Israelis that they don't subsidize for
themselves. That is an outrageous state of affairs. This is the
kind of situation which could stimulate the sort of anti-Semitism
which some users here already think is latent in the human race
anyway. I don't think it is wise for Israel to be seen by the
world to be receiving special privileges over any other group in
our society. The perception of special privileges for Israel will
ultimately lead to the reality of special resentment against
Israel.

If Diaspora Zionists had their act together they'd stop lobbying
for the billions in aid, and instead start lobbying to decrease
or eliminate the aid with the object of winning Israel's true
independence. But they do not have their act together, nor are
they able to think in original and independent ways about matters
concerning the state of Israel.
---
  OLX 3.01 31-2557  true blue light
--
Channel 1 (R)   Cambridge, MA
From: ehrlich@bimacs.BITNET (Gideon Ehrlich)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Deportation of Palestinians
Date: 12 Jan 93 09:05:35 GMT
Organization: Math department, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, ISRAEL

In article <1993Jan7.203812.7044@nysernet.org> astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein) writes:
>zmbenhal@netcom.com (Zeyd M. Ben-Halim) writes:
>
>
>>Maybe they should ask themselves WHY they are under constant attack, could it
>>be something they did (or still doing) to the palestinians?
>
>Ah, the old blame the victim trick.
>
>Israel was attacked in 1948 before it had a chance to do anything
>other than accept the UN's lopsidedly pro-Arab partition plan.
>
>The PLO was started in 1964, years before Judea, Samaria and Gaza
   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> were returned to Jewish rule.
>Alan H. Stein                     astein@israel.nysernet.org

The PLO was established by the Arabian league ( an organization of the
Arabian states at the middle east ) at a public conference AT
JERUSALEM on 1964.
The "Palestinian covenant" declared then , declared that palestinians
have no right to act at Judea Samaria ( under Jordenian occupation) ;
Gaza strip and Uja al hafir ( Under Egyptian occupation) and at Hama (
hamat gader - under syrian occupation). The aim as declared was
descruction of the state of Israel .
Jerusalem was then under Jordenian occupation , it was freed on 1967
as a result of an Arabian failour to destroy Israel.

We shell overcome    Gideon   ERETS YISRAEL
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast