From: ahmed@dsg.cs.tcd.ie (Ahmed El-Habbash)
Subject: Re: The Finality of Allah's Apostle (SAW)
Organization: DSG, Dept. of Computer Science, Trinity College Dublin
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 16:53:15 GMT

In <1992Nov23.135826.29886@bernina.ethz.ch> nadeem@igpho (Nadeem Malik) writes:

>[ Article crossposted from soc.culture.pakistan,soc.culture.bangladesh ]
>[ Author was Nadeem Malik ]
>[ Posted on Sun, 22 Nov 1992 17:38:53 GMT ]

>ahmed@dsg.cs.tcd.ie (Ahmed El-Habbash) writes:
>: In <1992Nov20.173356.27837@bernina.ethz.ch> nadeem@igpho (Nadeem Malik) writes:
>: 
>: >merchant@davidsys.com (Rukhsana Merchant) writes:
>: >: 
>: >: 
>: >: 	The Finality of Allah's Apostle (SAW).
>: >: 
>: >: 
>: >: 	Abu Haraira report Allah's Messenger (SAW) as saying:
>: >: 	The similitude of mine and that of the Apostles
>: >: 	before me is that of a person who built a house
>: >        ^^^^^^
>: >: 	quite imposing and bueatiful, but for one
>: >: 	brick in one of its corners.   People would
>: >: 	go around it, appreciating the building, but
>: >: 	saying: Why has the brick not been fixed here?  He
>: >: 	said:  I am that brick and I am the last of the 
>: >: 	Apostles.
>: >: 
>: >: 		Sahih Muslim.
>: >: 
>: 
>: >Answer: Note the word "before". If the Holy Prophet (SAW) was absolutely
>: >the last prophet, then the inclusion of this word is illogical. Why not
>: >just say "The similitude of mine and the that of the Apostles is that ..
>: >.." ? Clearly there is a meaning in this conditional term "before".
>: >It is saying that sure enough Muhammad (SAW) has completed the pinnacle
>: >of Prophethood and none may come to advance it. But this says nothing
>: >against possible Messengers afterwards who may come to revive Muslims
>: >after decay. Sure, it dosn't actually say that such Messengers will
>: >actually come, but it leaves open the possibility that may they do so in
>: >the future. This is clear and logical I think.
>: 
>: Sorry, it is not logical. 

>Sorry, but it IS perfectly logical. 

>: 
>: The Hadeeth says: the Prophets can be compared to a building. In that
>			^^^^^^^^
>sorry, but only Prophets BEFORE Holy Prophet -- that is the point!

This is the point! This is the way we emphesize and confirm things in
Arabic. This emphasises the fact that there are only prophets BEFORE and
NOT AFTER.

To emphesize the fact that there is no after, we use before.  You got it
in the opposite sense.

Prophets before Muhammed (saw), formed a building, in that building
there was a space for only one brick to complete it. That brick came,
Prophet Muhammed (saw), the building is complete, and there is no space
for more bricks.



>: building there is one missing brick, which is Mohammed(saw). The
>: building became complete and there is no room for any other bricks after
>: Mohammed (saw).
>: 
>: Reviving Muslims does not need prophets. The full message of Islam is
>  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>: there. Only it needs people to carry that message and deliver it in its
>: clean and original form. 


>With respect, this is your opinion. I believe that the Quran supports the
>concept that Prophets were in the past and can in the futute be sent for
>reviving Muslims. This is clear even from the non-Ahmadi point view 
>that Jesus will come again to revive Muslims. Now whether or not this
>breaks the finality of prophethood is, to my mind, secondary to the point
>that ALL MUSLIMS AGREE THAT THE NEED OF THE HOUR IS FOR A MESSENGER OF
>ALLAH TO BE SENT BY HIM TO REVIVE MUSLIMS. This is unquestionably the 
>substantial issue --- whether Jesus is an old or new prophet is quite 
>immaterial to the needs of the time.

Who said that there is a need for a Prophet or a messenger. What such a
prophet or Messenger is supposed to do ? The message ( the Quran ) is there, 
the Sunnah of the last prophet is there, Just follow. A prophet will not
make a difference, and perhaps he will make things worse, particularly
if he is a false prophet.

>: The Hadeeth of the Prophet should not be taken as a mystry. It is a
>: simple talk from a prophet who wants to teach his simple, almost
>: illiterate companions. So when he says that there is no prophet after
>: him then he only means that, and when he refers to himself as the final
>: brick in the house of prophethood, then he means that. He means that the
>: house is complete now, and there is no place for other prophets.
>: 
>I cannot agree that the statements of the Holy Prophet (SAW) are for
>simple minded, illerate types only. If this were the case then it would
>make all scholars that have come in Islam redundant. The fact is that the
>Holy Prophet (SAW) as a Messenger of Allah spoke simple words indeed, but
>well chosen by the Grace of Allah so that his sayings are like oceans in
>which people can relate at their own level -- a man with a samll cup will
>be as satisfied as a man with a bucket to drink from the ocean of his
>knowledge. There is off course a danger in both directions -- too much
>over-intellectualism and too simplictic an approach are both mis-leading.
>The golden mean is to study these hadith with correct definitions and
>with honesty and prayers.

When the Prophet (saw) says that the best of the generations are my
companions, then the next generation, then the next generation, this
implies that the companions understood the message directly without
distortion, the following generations will introduce more and more
distortion, until they start innovating and perhaps manufacturing prophets,
and then reinterpret the sources in a way to suit the new situation.



>: 
>: >: --
>: >: 31. Say: If you love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you
>: >: and forgive you your faults, and Allah is Forgiving, MercifuL
>: >: 
>: >: 32. Say: Obey Allah and the Apostle; but if they turn back, then
>: >: surely Allah does not love the unbelievers.
>: >: 
>: >: The Holy Quran: The Family of Imran.
>: >: 
>: >: --
>: >: 
>: >: May Allah (swt) guide us. Amin.
>: >: 
>: >: -Rukhsana Merchant
>: 
>: >Miss Rukhsana has on several occassions put great emphasis on sunna, and
>: >particularly on the need to look at *ALL* Sunna. It is obvious, therefore,
>: >that she cannot be aware of the many hadith which clearly talk about
>: >Messengers to come in the future. I am preparing a series of articles
>: >in response to one Raheel Khan's postings some time ago. Since I have
>: >prepared one on the importance of sunnat and hadith, I will am posting
>: >that one early because it is relevant to this item by Miss Rukhsana. 
>: >Fir the moment I will give just one hadith to ilustrate the point of
>: >looking at *ALL* hadith:
>: 
>: >On the death of Ibrahim, son of the Holy Prophet (SAW), he said:
>: >	"If Ibrahim had lived, he would have been a true Prophet."
>: >	(A very authentic hadith from Ibn-e-Majah, Kitabul Janaiz)
>: 
>: This, what you say as Hadeeth contradicts with the other Hadeeth that 
>: teaches us how to behave when things are over; that other Hadeeth says
>: that one shouldn't say iff such thing had happened then that other thing 
                         ~~~~~
>: would have happened. Such IFF opens the Door for Satan."
>: So how do you expect the prophet to say something in the way you
>: presented it, which contradicts his teachings?

>Sorry, I don't understand what you are saying here?

Another reading perhaps makes it clearer, ( I did few corrections to
make it more understandable).

>: 
>: >There are plenty other like this. So I request Miss Rukhsana, and
>: >others, to please look at *ALL* hadith before making a decision on
>: >such an important matter. Most of the hadith that apparently speak
>: >of termination of Prophethood can be quite well explained either
>: >as referring to a limited category of Prophets (like "before" in
>: >the hadith above quoted by Miss Rukhsana), or they contain some
>: >other reasonable meaning. These things I am preparing, so please
>: >watch out for them. Thank you.

What you said above will be relevant only when you provide your
quotations.

>: 
>: Even what you consider as Hadeeth doesn't tell any thing. " If Ibrahim
>: had lived then he would have been a true Prophet "
>: 
>: It could mean that there will be false prophets, because the baby who
>: could be a true prophet had died.
>: 
>: It could mean also that Ibrahim has the qualities of Prophets, but he
>: died.

>I don't understand how these interpretations can be put into the hadith?

Of course they do not accord to what you want.

>Also, the last point that you make has an interesting corrolary; what is
>the difference between being a prophet and having the qualities of a 
>prophet? 

It is the same difference between Muhammed (saw) before and after the
first revelation. Before he had the qualities of a Prophet, then after
the revelation he became a Prophet, and a Messenger.

> If you have all the qualities of prophethood then you must by
>definition be a prophet because all things are in reality defined by
>their qualities.
Read above, please.
Read above.
>I am bound to ask, with sincerity, that is there not in what you are saying
>a direct contradiction in what you proposed earlier, i.e. about not taking
>hadith as mysteries and taking the simple and straightforward
>meaning of anything that the Holt Prophet (SAW) said? If your method is applied
>here the there is only one meaning to the above hadith ... Ibrahim would
>have been a prophet had he grown up, and as a direct implication it 

I hope it is clear now that there is no contradiction of what I had
said.

>proves that prophets from within the Muslim umma can certainly come.
> 
>: 
>: >By the way there are also about 4 or 5 verses of the Holy Quran
>: >that talk of future prophets ... that I am preparing also. These are,
>: >to say the least, totally decisiev on the issue.

Before presenting any thing, I would like to tell you that there is
nothing like that.

>: 
>: 
>: >In the mean time, let us pray for Allah's guidence. Amen
>: 
>: >Nadeem Malik, nadeem@p.igp.ethz.ch
>: 

As a final point, What is the significance of claiming that Ghulam Ahmed
is a prophet. The Message is the Quran, the same Quran, Fiqh is
following Abu Haneefah, perhaps he made new interpretations, that is
fine, but does he need to be a Prophet to make new interpretations , or
even to make his interpretation acceptable ?

There is no need for that. 

The Objective of the message of Allah is to follow the code of His
message. It is not an objective to say X man is a Prophet or not a prophet.

In the Quran, only a small subset of the Prophets was mentioned, what about 
those who are not mentioned. Knowing them is not significant, what
significant is following the message.

Assume that I am ignorant about the fact that Muhammed
(saw) is the last prophet, but I follow exactly his message.
Now what difference does it make to me if I believed that Ghulam Ahmed
is a prophet or a reformer if he is not going to tell me more than
following the message that I am already following.  Also does it make
difference if I consider him just as reformer.

You see, we are wasting our time in discussing whether Gulam Ahmed is a
prophet or not Prophet and ignoring about the massage itself.
Don't you feel that Muslims need to adher more to Islam, and the code of
Islam, particularly the moral code.

Muslims are liars, deceitful, hypocrites, I mean as a majority, don't
you feel that discussing these aspects of the Moral code of Islam is
more fruitful than discussing dead people whether they are prophets or
not prophets. You know how idolatory started ? By making people Gods,
you see how clever and imaginative people can become!?
>: -- 
>: Ahmed I. El-Habbash, 
>: Department of Computer Science, Trinity College,
>: Dublin 2, Ireland.
>: Tel: office: +353-1-7021524
-- 
Ahmed I. El-Habbash, 
Department of Computer Science, Trinity College,
Dublin 2, Ireland.
Tel: office: +353-1-7021524