From: rpitts@emperor.gatech.edu (Richard Pitts)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Problems with Paul's history of Jesus
Date: 13 Nov 92 16:46:40 GMT
Organization: CERL-EE, Georgia Institue of Technology

In article <BxKoJq.Mqp@inews.Intel.COM> pharvey@mipos3.intel.com (Paul Harvey) writes:

In a preliminary response to this, I asked if Mr. Harvey believed the
Apostle Paul wrote or directed the writings of all of the New Testament?
And or the Old Testament?  If you missed them, I here ask again.

Paul preached the fulfillment of the OT prohecy.  He worshipped the
God of his fathers in accordance with the law and the prophets.

|1. Paul claims that Jesus is the son of God, born of the virgin Mary, wife
|of Joseph.
|	The Lord of the Hebrews is remote and brooding. No one ever sees Him
|	and when Moses asks by what shall we call You, He responds, "I am that
|	I am." This is one of the things that makes Judaism different from
|	the other religions of Mesopotamia and Egypt. Paul's claim that the

The method for pleasing God has always been the same.  Abraham was justified
by faith, just as we are.  The law didn't come for years after God called
Abraham, but he was justified.  God is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

|	Lord of the Hebrews somehow plants his seed in Mary and she conceives
|	of Jesus, the son of God is very reminiscent of the creation of
|	demi-gods in pagan religions. Presumably, Jesus being of God and Mary
|	is part human, part God, hence demi-God. The pagan aspect of this
|	myth is one of the main reasons it is rejected by Judaism and Islam.
|	The books of Judaism do not predict a son of God, such a myth is

The OT books predict a coming Savior, the a descendant of David, the seed
of a woman (virgin birth) - one who will set the captives free and defeat
Satan.

Also in Malachi 3:1 we see the LORD himself saying that HE is coming.

    Malachi 3:1 (NIV)   "See, I will send my messenger, who will 
    prepare the way before ME. Then suddenly the Lord you are 
    seeking will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, 
    whom you desire, will come," says the LORD Almighty. 

A new covenant was promised because the people failed to follow God
and Jesus is the mediator of that new covenant.

|	completely out of form. However, this myth of Jesus the son of God
|	probably made Christianity an easier sell amongst pagans of the Roman
|	Empire much as the trinity and other pagan concepts did also. One
|	cannot accuse Paul of not being a clever marketer.

Maybe one likes to twist the words of Paul as they do the rest of scriptures,
as the Apostle Peter told us or rather warned us.

|2. Paul claims that Jesus is the son of God and God at the same time.
|	Now, in most cultures of the world, it is an insult for a son to
|	claim he is his father, particularly if the father is still alive.
|	Nonetheless, this is Paul's claim. Perhaps it is an attempt to hide
|	the obvious polytheism that God having a son introduces. In any
|	case, the logic of God having a son by way of the woman Mary and yet
|	this son is God is not obvious. If Jesus is God in human form, then
|	Jesus is God in human form, not God directly and not the son of God.

Do you suppose that God is unable to be directly God in human form.  The
term Son of God, to my understanding, has more to do with his being born
to Mary and thus being a son, since he was a male.

|3. Paul claims that Jesus is the son of God and God at the same time and
|that Jesus suffers and dies on the cross and reincarnates or comes back to
|life.

Oh, I missed the part about reincarnation - should I read it again? NO.
For you missed the part about Jesus coming back to life in an immortal
body - one that had been changed - one that was not perishable.  He
said he had flesh and bones (i.e., he was not a ghost) and in fact he
showed he had the same body, through transformed, for he showed the 
holes in his hands, feet and side.  

|	Now we are surrounded by paradoxes. Jesus seems to act like a
|	demi-god in that he has some qualities of a god and some of a human
|	which is to be expected if he is the product of God and the woman
|	Mary. But, this contradicts Paul's claim that Jesus is God. Which

Paul tell us that Jesus humbled himself and was found in the form of a man.
If he humbled himself, he had to be above man to some degree.  The book
of John tells us that Jesus was God and was made flesh - he took on the
attributes of a mortal, for he was fully man, but that doesn't negate
him being fully God.  

|	in turn contradicts Paul's claim that Jesus suffers on the cross and
|	dies. Jesus as God dies? How can God die? God was never born, He
|	just is. But Jesus was born and is God, according to Paul, and since
|	Jesus (God) was born then he also must die. But, then the death was

He died according to the plan that existed before the foundation of the
world.  

|	of no meaning since, Jesus being a son of God has the power of
|	reincarnation, and so Jesus comes back to life and then goes into
|	hiding somewhere. Again, despite being full of paradox, the tale is

Again it is not reincarnation, but resurrection.  David prophesied
that God's Holy One would not see decay - obviously David didn't fulfill
that, but Jesus did - he rose from the dead.

|	reminscent of pagan religion, but certainly there is absolutely
|	nothing in the Hebrew scriptures of this nature, it is completely
|	out of form. The followers of Judaism are expecting a prophet to
|	restore Israel.

They were expecting a prophet to restore, but also there was to be
a Savior and a new covenant.  Jesus fulfilled the grace part the
first time he was on earth, but he will restore the Israel of God,
when he returns.

    Isaiah 61:1-3 (NIV)   The Spirit of the Sovereign LORD is on me, 
    because the LORD has anointed me to preach good news to the 
    poor. He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim 
    freedom for the captives and release from darkness for the 
    prisoners, {2} to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor and the 
    day of vengeance of our God, to comfort all who mourn, {3} and 
    provide for those who grieve in Zion-- to bestow on them a crown 
    of beauty instead of ashes, the oil of gladness instead of 
    mourning, and a garment of praise instead of a spirit of 
    despair. They will be called oaks of righteousness, a planting 
    of the LORD for the display of his splendor. 

|                        Paul's version of the history of Jesus does not
|	fit Judaism at all.

Paul said he followed God according to all the law and the prophets.
He said he was persecuted for preaching the revealing of what was 
prophecied.

Look at the prophecy in Isaiah 53 and compare it to Jesus' death:

    Isaiah 53 (NIV)   Who has believed our message and to whom has 
    the arm of the LORD been revealed? {2} He grew up before him 
    like a tender shoot, and like a root out of dry ground. He had 
    no beauty or majesty to attract us to him, nothing in his 
    appearance that we should desire him. {3} He was despised and 
    rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering. 
    Like one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we 
    esteemed him not. {4} Surely he took up our infirmities and 
    carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God, 
    smitten by him, and afflicted. {5} But he was pierced for our 
    transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the 
    punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds 
    we are healed. {6} We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of 
    us has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the 
    iniquity of us all. {7} He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he 
    did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, 
    and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so he did not open 
    his mouth. {8} By oppression and judgment he was taken away. And 
    who can speak of his descendants? For he was cut off from the 
    land of the living; for the transgression of my people he was 
    stricken. {9} He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with 
    the rich in his death, though he had done no violence, nor was 
    any deceit in his mouth. {10} Yet it was the Lord's will to 
    crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the LORD makes his 
    life a guilt offering, he will see his offspring and prolong his 
    days, and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand. 
    {11} After the suffering of his soul, he will see the light of 
    life and be satisfied ; by his knowledge my righteous servant 
    will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities. 
    {12} Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, and he 
    will divide the spoils with the strong, because he poured out 
    his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. 
    For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the 
    transgressors. 

Crucifiction was prophecied:

    Psalms 22:14-18 (NIV)   I am poured out like water, and all my 
    bones are out of joint. My heart has turned to wax; it has 
    melted away within me. {15} My strength is dried up like a 
    potsherd, and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth; you lay 
    me in the dust of death. {16} Dogs have surrounded me; a band of 
    evil men has encircled me, they have pierced my hands and my 
    feet. {17} I can count all my bones; people stare and gloat over 
    me. {18} They divide my garments among them and cast lots for my 
    clothing. 


Jesus is the fulfillment of Judaism - they sought to have a righteousness
of their own and lost the righteousness of God, which is by faith today,
as it was in Abraham's day.  God the same yesterday, today, and forever.

For Christ and His Kingdom,
Richard Pitts
-- 
rpitts@cerl.gatech.edu       |    
Atlanta, GA                --|-- 
                        -|-  |  -|-
                         |   |   |