From: spira@panix.com (Greg "Sarcasm Is A Way Of Life" Spira)
Subject: Re: Henderson vs. Ryan
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1992 18:14:47 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: A Slightly Warmer Place Than Dave Kirsch's Winter Wonderland

In <texdude.703211528@camelot> texdude@camelot.bradley.edu (Philip Allen) writes:


>In <167C8F309.CAVGEOE@YaleVM.YCC.Yale.Edu> CAVGEOE@YaleVM.YCC.Yale.Edu writes:

>>     Aw, c'mon, give Rickey (note spelling) a break.  When he said,
>>"You were good, Lou, but today I am the greatest," he was referring
>>to prowess in stealing bases, not overall ability or value.  And you
>>know what?  He was right.  His assessment of both Brock and himself
>>was pretty accurate.  No, it wasn't elegant or gracious but dammit,
>>Henderson isn't paid to make speeches, he's paid to win ballgames
>>for the teams he plays for, and he's done a hell of a lot more of
>>that than Nolan Ryan or any of the clowns who thought it was so
>>"fitting" that Ryan stole the headlines the next morning.  He was
>>put on the spot and may have sounded a little arrogant but like
>>Dizzy Dean said, if you can do it, it ain't bragging.
>>     ESPN's little 7>939 feature was really nasty and undeserved
>>by Henderson.  It's too bad that Ryan will probably get more HOF
>>votes than Rickey, and maybe even go in on an earlier ballot, seeing
>>as Rickey is at least twice as good a player as Ryan.

>This is totally idiotic.  Rickey Henderson is a great baseball player, but
>he isn't even in the same league as Ryan when it comes to quality.

You're right; its not close.  Henderson, over his career, has been a much
much better player than Ryan.

>Nolan Ryan is the all-time leader in strikeouts, strikeouts/innings pitched
>(for more than 500 IP), and no-hitters.  He ranks in the top ten or twenty
>in wins, lowest opponents' BA, lowest opponents' SLG, and shutouts.  Last
>year, Ryan led the majors in lowest BA/OBA/SLG allowed (.172/.263/.285) and
>K/9 IP (10.6).  He also ranked third in K's in the AL (203) and fifth in
>ERA (2.91).  And he did this at age 45.  (Let's see how good Henderson is at
>45)

First, presenting Ryan's stats last year tells us nothing about his career.
You see, Ryan has been a better pitcher the last 2 years than he has been
at any other point in his career.  If he had pitched this way throughout his
career, you'd be right about how good he's been.  But he hasn't.

Strikeouts are nice to have, and they're certainly a sign of a dominating
pitcher, but a strikeout doesn't make a pitcher any better than his ERA.  His
5000+ strikouts are more of a descriptive stat than a measure of how good a
pitcher has been.  The 7 no-hitters are quite remarkable, but they're only
7 games.  They don't really tell you how valuable Ryan has been to his team
over the years.  

>Rickey Henderson is the all-time leader in SB.  Last year, he led the AL in
>SB (58) which ranked third in all-of-baseball last year.  He ranked third
>in the AL in walks (98).

>I realize that last year was a bad year for Rickey, but besides his
>baserunning numbers, his lifetime totals aren't what legends are made of.
>He walks a lot and scores a bunch of runs, and he well-deserved the MVP in
>1991, but I can't believe that anyone could say that he is "twice as good a
>player as Ryan" either last year, or lifetime.

Last year was a bad year for Rickey, the exception that proves how great
Rickey is.  He posted "only" a .400 OBP, and he was "only" the 2nd best
leadoff batter in the league, not the best.  And this was a lousy year
for him.  

Rickey's baserunning is almost incidental to his value.  What's impressive is
his lifetime .403 OBP and .440 SLG..  When you take into account his ballparks
and his era, Henderson comes out as one of the real all time greats, and
probably the best overall player of the 1980s (though Mike Schmidt has a good
argument also).  

When you look at Ryan's lifetime ERA, his lifetime W-L (career W-Ls are         
somewhat meaningful, unlike single year W-L), etc., its pretty clear that
Ryan just hasn't helped his teams all that much.  His biggest negative, of
course, has been his lousy control - he's walked more people than any other
pitcher in history, and its not close.  Check out his career OBP allowed, and
compare it to that allowed by pitchers like Seaver, or even Bert Blyleven.
Ryan is way behind. 

I'm not arguing that Ryan doesn't belong in the Hall, by the way.  I am
arguing that Ryan isn't one of the best 5 pitchers of his generation, 
while Henderson is one of the best 5 everyday players of his.  

>As for Ryan showing up Henderson, the one thing I can remember is Henderson
>giving a speech about how he's the greatest, while Nolan quietly tipped his hat
>to the crowd and tried to avoid the hooplah.  If nothing else, Ryan has
>more class than Rickey.

Well, that I'm not going to argue.  I've defended a lot of Rickey's other
actions, but his speech was just plain embarrasing.

Greg  
-- 
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