HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky)
Subject: Re: Israeli Nazism? (Re: The Hadith about Muslims killing the J)
Reply-To: makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky)
Organization: Arizona State University, Tempe AZ
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1992 22:08:07 GMT

In article <1992Dec27.172701.4971@ncsu.edu> hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU (Brad Hernlem) writes:

# In article <1992Dec26.202015.4798@nysernet.org>, astein@nysernet.org
# (Alan Stein) writes:

# > Anisa cleverly tries to associate Israeli defensive actions with
#                                             ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
# > Nazism, in a message as offensive as it is inaccurate.
 
# > aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Shaqeeqa) writes:
 
# > >All this talk about Nazism as equitable/inequitable to Israel's
# > >ruthlessness towards Palestinians never mentioned the fact that
# > >Israel reciprocates in the same manner as the Nazis did during
# > >their own occupation of Europe.  And that is, for every soldier
# > >killed, handfuls of civilians were murdered.
 
# > Israel has deported terrorists;  the Nazis mass murdered innocent men,
#   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
# > women and children.
 
# Was it permissible for Nazi Germany to imprison these people (without
# killing them)? Your comments above would imply that you believe that
# Nazis were justified in stuffing concentration camps with people. 

	How in the hell can you derive that implication?  The imprisoned
by the Nazis were not members of any organizations that were dedicated
to Nazi destruction.  In fact, many did everything they could to deny
their Jewishness and make themselves German.

# BTW, Anisa was not making a comparison between Nazi concentration camps
# but between the action of Nazi occupation troops and Israeli occupation
# troops.

	That comparison is just as disgusting.

# Actually, in my opinion, any country which chooses to maintain
# an oppressive occupation will behave similarly. 

	While no occupation can be benign, this was was forced on Israel
by the Arabs.  At any rate, most of the responses by Israel you
condemn are actually to weak, and were unjustafiably provoked.

# From what you have said above, you would make a good concentration camp
# Nazi, I think. Out of sight out of mind, eh? :-) 

	Nope, but you would make a good Nazi.

# > Of course, the Nazi big lie technique has been a favorite of those
# > trying to destroy Israel, so we shouldn't be surprised at Anisa's
# > tactics.

Of course, the Nazi big lie technique has been a favorite of those
trying to destroy Israel, so we shouldn't be surprised at Brad's
tactics.
--
	There are three types of people in the world.  Those that are good
at math and those that are not.

makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu
From: astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Israeli soldiers kill Palestinian boy
Date: 26 Dec 92 19:53:11 GMT
Organization: NYSERNet, Inc.

jle@lear.bos.locus.com (John Elghani) writes:

>If the arabic dicators  kill palestinians, they're mainly being
>obedient to the israeli orders: Kill the palestinin militants,
>or we'll bomb your water dam, power source, .etc..

That's a joke, right?  You really think Israel is going to politely
ask Saddam Hussein or Hafez Assad to murder Arabs, and they're going
to do Israel a favor?

>Besides, Israel's existence is what caused the arabic countries to
>kill palestinians.  If israel did not come from Germany to rob
>and land on Palestine ...

How clever of them to have pretended to die in gas chambers and then
get cremated, so they could sneak into Eretz Yisrael with nobody
expecting them.  Those sneaky Jews sure are underhanded, aren't they?
No wonder Hitler wanted to get rid of all of them.  (If you detect any
sarcasm, then you have more intelligence than you've shown so far.)

>Prior to the theft-existence of israel, Palestine
>had the most prolofic economy in the region,...

Palestine was basically a neglected backwater when the Zionists
brought its economy back to life.

-- 
Alan H. Stein   -----  AJIN   -----  astein@israel.nysernet.org
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: ohayon@jcpltyo.JCPL.CO.JP (Tsiel Ohayon)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Palestinian deportees turned back by Lebanese
Date: 25 Dec 92 05:39:41 GMT
Organization: James Capel Pacific Limited, Tokyo Japan

In article <4736@copper.Denver.Colorado.EDU> aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Shaqeeqa) writes:
[ANISA] In article <167@jcpltyo.JCPL.CO.JP> ohayon@jcpltyo.JCPL.CO.JP 
(Tsiel Ohayon) writes:
[TSIEL] In article <1992Dec21.083406.0102976@locus.com> John Elghani the 
brilliant writes:

[JLE] Below is a description of the HUMANITARIAN and PEACFULL acts of the
[JLE] HUMANITARIAN and PEACE LOVING state of Israel.  A UPI article:
[JLE] FULL-DUPLEX SUPER SARCASTICS.  WE COULD FOOL ALOT WITH OUT SARCASM!!.

[TSIEL] You should not get angry, it is bad for your health jle!

[ANISA] What would you suggest he do, Tsiel?  Sing praises of joy?

Maybe he should consider suicide. :-) It will be less painful for everyone.
What about spelling lessons if the above advice is not taken into account :-)

Tsiel
-- 
----8<--------------------------------------------------------------->8------
Tsiel:ohayon@jcpl.co.jp	   | If you do not receive this E-mail, please let me
Employer may not have same | know as soon as possible, if possible.
opinions, if any !         | Two percent of zero is almost nothing.
From: jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk (Jeremy Henderson)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Name of Palestinian Deportees (part i)
Date: 1 Jan 93 17:08:03 GMT
Organization: Edinburgh University


Josh Backon writes:

~For your information, VOLUNTARY MEMBERSHIP ALONE made one liable to criminal
~prosecution.

This is jolly interesting, but you will concede that it has no bearing on the
question of the deportation, since none of these men were prosecuted, much
less convicted, of anything whatsoever. Indeed it is clear that a significant
number of them were rounded up ("the usual suspects") by mistake.

And even if they WERE convicted of membership of an illegal organisation,
even if they were all convicted serial killers who'd chopped off their
mothers' ears and pissed in the hole, it would STILL be a gross violation
of the Geneva Convention to deport them, and it would STILL expose the 
Israeli Supreme Court as a kangaroo puppet for ruling it acceptable to
leave them dumped on the territory of another sovereign country.

But please, don't let these unpleasant facts distract you from your
intellectual discussion.

-- 
===Jeremy Henderson===jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk=          

This message cost the net hundreds if not thousands of dollars.
Bloody good value if you ask me.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: cl056@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Hamaza H. Salah)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.arabic
Subject: Re: Name of Palestinian Deportees (part i)
Date: 28 Dec 92 15:24:34 GMT
Reply-To: cl056@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Hamaza H. Salah)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu



backon@vms.huji.ac.il, The Hebrew University of Jerusalem, writes:

>Sorry to disappoint you but NO ONE wants peace here more than I do. I support
>an independent Palestinian state in Jordan to be governed by Yassir Arafat.

This is the kind of peace jews are looking for,
solving the palestinian problem by creating two new ones:
Jordanian and Palestinian.  No just kidding..

In reality, here is how such a peace might be accomplished:

"
 - Forget Palestine land, it's jewish,
 - Deport all Palestinians from Palestine and put them in Jordan,
 - Claim it is the responsibilty of the Jordanians to deal with the
   problem since they are no longer on Israeli soil,
 - Help Palestinians to make a co on the king of Jordan,
 - Enjoy watching Palestinians digging their way thru making
   Jordan their independent state,
 - Enjoy the bloodshed of both Jordanians and Palestinians,
 - When enough of both sides are killed, help Palestinians to win,
 - Appoint Arafat as the president of the new independent palestine
   in Jordan,
 - Congratulate all the world specially palestinians, arabs, and
   jews on establishing the new palestinian state,
 - Make full bidirectional realations b/w israel and new palestine,
 - The Israeli-Palestinian-Arab conflict is now gone for good.
 - Everybody goes home.
 - And finally, the  P E A C E  that nobody wants more than you do
   is fully accomplished.
"

Please don't hate me!  Just couldn't help it...

-- 
                  ___________________ cl056@cleveland.Freenet.Edu _____________
                 (______   _  |   _  |_
_____ H A M Z A ________) |-| |_ |-| | |
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,soc.history,soc.culture.soviet
Followup-To: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: Re: Bulgarians - descendents of a Finnis tribe?
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 92 20:17:01 EST
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world

In article <tervio.9@katk.Helsinki.FI> tervio@katk.Helsinki.FI (TERVI| MARKO J) writes:

>>>When Kemal Ataturk put a Bulgarian book "Finland - country of
>>>the White Lilies" as compulsory teaching material many Turks
>>>think that Finns are their relative nation.

>>"Ojukka". This must be a common comprehension level shared by all the 
>>members of new Finland. I don't have the faintest idea what literature 
>>it is to which you refer. Is this an explicit statement by some document?
>>Or is it your "fino" interpretation of statements in such literature?
>>If you have some source that is not known to the rest of the world,
>>I for one would be glad to hear of it. 
>>"...as compulsory teaching material"? Must be the joke of the month?
>>Serdar Argic

>I've heard the same thing on a Finnish TV channel - It was the interview of
>Turkey's president (Ozal or something like that).  It was he who told about 
>his childhood and having to read the book in question, where Finland was a 
>model society (it sounded funny,really).  He said that it's a widespread 
>belief in Turkey that the Turks and the Finns are somehow related.  

That is correct. Now please show us that Mustafa Kemal put a "Bulgarian"
book "as compulsory teaching material" in "Turkiye". This is utter assertion, 
without even a hint of factual data to confirm it.

>So if 
>there is a "joke of the month" it was started by the president of Turkey.

That is a false perception. Or do you insist that Finnish people cater
to false perceptions because a large number of people hold them? Consult
some scholarly sources, for a change.

Serdar Argic

                     'This war quickly developed into one of extermination. 
                      We closed the roads and mountain passes that might 
                      serve as ways of escape for the Tartars [Turks] and 
                      then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: maler@pelvoux.imag.fr (Oded Maler)
Subject: Re: A pragmatic view of the deportation
Organization: IMAG Institute, University of Grenoble, France
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 12:17:14 GMT

In article <1992Dec22.191148.26448@ncsu.edu>, hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU (Brad Hernlem) writes:

|> 
|> I don't think it is anybody's business how the Palestinians choose to
|> govern themselves. They don't have democracy now but you are concerned
|> that if Israel lets them govern themselves they may not have democracy
|> then (or may not have the government that YOU like). Why not give them a
|> chance? 

If I was living across the ocean, my tendency for irreversible 
experimentalism might have been similar to yours. But people who live
10 minutes away from there are doomed to live (or die) with the results 
of this experiment, so it is their business.

Even here in France, the possibility of an Islamic regime in Algeria,
which does not have a common border with France is considered a nightmare.

|> 
|> It is extremely conceited and arrogant to argue that a people should
|> remain in submission because if they are granted freedom they might not
|> be able to take care of themselves! 

Sounding arrogant may not be so aesthetic, but aesthetics is not the first
priority when survival needs are not yet guaranteed. The possibility that
the Palestinian state will become something that you would not want to have
as a neighbor is not improbable, and should be taken into consideration.
I really want to believe that the Palestinians will be the first Arab nation
to develop a reasonable (in your standards) form of government, but I'm not
sure this will be the case. [I hope you don't consider the corrupted Egyptian
dictatorship as a model of a healthy society].

|> 
|> As I said before, (from BBC reports) most of the Palestinian deportees
|> are well-educated people. They are professionals in such areas as
|> teaching, medicine, law, and engineering. These are examples of people
|> who can help build a Palestinian country. Deporting them only
|> exacerbates your false concern.
|> 

Maybe and maybe not. Many fanatic Islamic (and Jewish) movements are led
by people with secular education. 

|> 
|> Brad Hernlem (hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU)


-- 
===============================================================
Oded Maler, LGI-IMAG (Campus), B.P. 53x, 38041 Grenoble, France
Phone:  76635846  Fax: 76446675   e-mail: maler@vercors.imag.fr
===============================================================
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein)
Subject: Re: Sgt-Mgr Nissim Toledano found murdered
Organization: NYSERNet, Inc.
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 20:13:43 GMT

hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU (Brad Hernlem) writes:

>> His death is on Israel's hands.  Israel did not want to exchange him
>> for Sheikh Ahmed (who is paralyzed and going blind, which is, I presume,
>> very humanitarian on Israel's part).

He was murdered without attempting any negotiations with Israel.
 
> A member of Hamas was interviewed on BBC about a
>week ago. When asked whether he was opposed to peace with Israel, he
>answered [I am liberally paraphrasing the response] that it was not
>peace that they were seeking to oppose but that peace talks without a
>show of commitment by Israel to reach a settlement was an act in futility.

In other words, he might be willing to negotiate if Israel totally
capitulated in advance.

The purpose of negotiations is to bridge differences and reach an
agreement both sides can live with.  That's impossible to do if one
side insists on total capitulation in advance.

>What are the intentions of the Israeli government? What do Israelis
>want?

Israel wants to live in peace with its neighbors.

A more appropriate question is what do Israel's neighbors, and the
Palestinian Arabs, want?  They've made that perfectly clear:  the
total destruction of Israel.
-- 
Alan H. Stein   -----  AJIN   -----  astein@israel.nysernet.org
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:24344 talk.politics.soviet:10062 soc.culture.greek:11938 soc.culture.europe:10882 soc.history:10430 soc.culture.soviet:11666 soc.culture.turkish:13674
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,soc.history,soc.culture.soviet
Followup-To: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: No Turk left alive in "Van" (not a single one).
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 92 22:14:49 EST
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world

In article <C01rH8.9M1@exnet.co.uk> dhd@exnet.co.uk (Damon) writes:

>I wonder if his various sources might like to get him for copyright
>infringement?  (Eg the UK paper ``The Observer'' that he/it/she has
>quoted more than once, I'm sure without permission.)

No wonder you are in such a mess.

Source: Stanford J. Shaw, on Armenian collaboration with invading Russian
armies in 1914, "History of the Ottoman Empire and Modern Turkey (Volume
II: Reform, Revolution & Republic: The Rise of Modern Turkey, 1808-1975)."
(London, Cambridge University Press 1977). pp. 315-316.

"In April 1915 Dashnaks from Russian Armenia organized a revolt in the city 
 of Van, whose 33,789 Armenians comprised 42.3 percent of the population, 
 closest to an Armenian majority of any city in the Empire...Leaving Erivan 
 on April 28, 1915, Armenian volunteers reached Van on May 14 and organized 
 and carried out a general slaughter of the local Muslim population during 
 the next two days while the small Ottoman garrison had to retreat to the
 southern side of the lake."

Serdar Argic

                     'This war quickly developed into one of extermination. 
                      We closed the roads and mountain passes that might 
                      serve as ways of escape for the Tartars [Turks] and 
                      then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)
From: "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com>
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: yes?
Date: 29 Dec 92 00:48:17 EST
Reply-To: "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com>
Distribution: talk
Organization: Channel 1 Communications

To: Stephen Watson

 SW> I'm not pro-Israel.  But I have been listening to your
 SW> painfully inaccurate diatribe for weeks now....

By all means present me with an itemized list of the inaccuracies
in my posts. You haven't effectively rebutted a single point yet.

Pejorative descriptors are not factual counter-arguments.
---
  OLX 3.01 31-2557  imaginary gardens with real toads in them
--
Channel 1 (R)   Cambridge, MA
From: jcg@teradata.com (Jonathan Gingerich)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Israeli soldiers kill Palestinian boy
Date: 22 Dec 92 19:48:38 GMT
Reply-To: jcg@tdat.teradata.com (Jonathan Gingerich)
Organization: Teradata Corp., El Segundo, CA

In article <1992Dec16.045957.15659@colorado.edu> perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (Eric S. Perlman) writes:
>...
>From the New Republic, November 23, 1992, p.28 (Article "The Palestinian
>Meltdown" by Steven Emerson): "The first Palestinian to openly criticize
>...
>There are others, we can be sure.  Even Faisal Husseini admits that many
>...
>7, he wrote "We know that some of them were killed for reasons
>unconnected to our struggle - family disputes, legal disputes, criminal
>disputes, and the mafia."  Others have gone even further in their
>...

While these people are not collaborators, they are not killed because of
political or religious intollerance either.  Rather they are killed because
of criminal activity.  It is advantageous to both the killer and Israel to
claim it is a "collaborator killing".

Obviously these crimes should be investigated and prosecuted.  This is the
responsibilty of the authorities i.e. the occupiers.  This would seem to
be a cost of the occupation rather than the intifada.

BTW, the article seems to contradict Eric's claim that intifada leadership
was not trying to clamp down on the killings.

Jon.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein)
Subject: Re: A pragmatic view of the deportation
Organization: NYSERNet, Inc.
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1992 15:57:55 GMT

hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU (Brad Hernlem) writes:

>According to reports that I have heard, even Rabin's government is not
>claiming that these men have killed anyone. Are you?

One does not have to pull the trigger to be responsible for murder.  I
don't recall Hitler actually killing anyone himself either.
-- 
Alan H. Stein                     astein@israel.nysernet.org
From: gwydion@gnu.ai.mit.edu (Mercenary Programmer)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Deportation of Palestinians
Date: 3 Jan 1993 19:49:01 GMT
Organization: Free Software Foundation
NNTP-Posting-Host: spiff.gnu.ai.mit.edu

In article <231@jcpltyo.JCPL.CO.JP> ohayon@jcpltyo.JCPL.CO.JP (Tsiel Ohayon) writes:

>By expelling these people, Jewish and Arab lives have probably been saved even
>if 11 Palestinians have been killed in street clashes with IDF soldiers. The
>number of "collaborators" killed is usually about that number in 10 days.


If you were to deport all the Jews from the Occupied Territories, you
would save a lot more lives.  If all you are concerned with is saving
lives, as you seem to claim, then why do you not support this?

Basalat Ali Raja.
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:24054 talk.politics.soviet:9972 soc.culture.greek:11850 soc.culture.europe:10779 soc.history:10369 soc.culture.soviet:11535 soc.culture.german:9518
From: ehrlich@bimacs.BITNET (Gideon Ehrlich)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Deportation of Palestinians
Date: 3 Jan 93 11:29:58 GMT
Organization: Math department, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, ISRAEL

In article <1993Jan2.102210.1262@netcom.com> zmbenhal@netcom.com (Zeyd M. Ben-Halim) writes:
>In article <1i3bmaINNr6e@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> bv652@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ilan Uri Woll) writes:
>>>Thirdly, we can also consign to oblivion the
>>>notion that the majority of the Israeli public really want a just peace
>>>based on honest dealing with the Palestinians, since according to opinion
>>>polls 91% of them are in accored with the deportations.
>>
>>I pose to you a parallel situation, in the U.S. if a non- U.S. citizen
>
>non-US citizens come from another country. Where do the palestinians come
>from?
>
>>commits murder, then they are also subject to deportation before a trial.
>>As to the 91%.  I would first ask you to site the poll (as I've never
>
>I believe it was in "Yedoat Ehranot" an quoted by CNN and others.
>
>>seen anything like that and am curious) and also remind you that as a
>>people constantly under the threat of attack, many Israelis are forced
>>into a defensive "us v. them" mentality.  It's very easy to judge this
>>from the mentality of a nation unthreatened by foreign invasion which
>>can afford a morally absolute posture,  Israel realistically cannot.
>
>Maybe they should ask themselves WHY they are under constant attack, could it
>be something they did (or still doing) to the palestinians?
>
>>Remember the occupied territories are under Israeli military rule, as it
>>was taken in a war.  Thus, the Supreme Court can only rule whether the
>>military acted in an "arbitrary and capricious" manner (using U.S.legal
>>terms).  I am unsure as to whether these Hamas members held Lebanese
>>citizenship (maybe someone out there knows?), but regardless, Israel has
>>the legal right to deport non-citizens.
>     ^^^^^ ^^^^^
>Not according to the Geneva Convention!
>
>The deportees are stateless. Why would they hold Lebanese citizenship, they
>don't live in Lebonan.
>
>>
>>Ilan U. Woll
>>
>>"Do you want fries with that" Gino Torreta's future career quote.
>
>Here, here! The TIDE has turned. He couldn't get a job with Seatlle :-)
>
>>--
>>---  !      ^    !\  !
>> !   !     /-\   ! \ !
>>___  !__  /   \  !  \!
>>                        Avoid cliches like the plague" George Shaw
>
>Zeyd


Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast