HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: drake+@cs.cmu.edu (Drake)
Subject: Re: Types of Magic
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1992 22:45:26 GMT

ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe) writes:

>>call Deity Magick.  But Vitalism?  I missed the original post, so I haven't
>>the foggiest what is meant here...I suspect that I'd include it with either
>>Mentalism or Natural Magick.
>
>Vitalism deals with tapping into vital force, which is often called chi.  It
>is the natural energy which everything which lives exudes.  Vitalism is the
>least specific magic, in a sense, because it deals in raw energy.  The
>typical ring dance to raise energy in Wicca is an obvious example of Vitalism.

Hmm.  I'd still tend to place it as a kind of cross between Mentalism and
Natural Magick...of which some forms of Wicca are good examples.  Much of
what they do seems to be Deity-oriented at times, so some could go that way
as well.

>Spiritualism deals with spirits--incorporeal entities.  This 
>totems, etc, but does not have to do with religion/deities.

Granted; perhaps Deity Magick *was* a bit of a misnomer.  I had in mind
the types of magic which deal with intelligent non-corporeal entities,
such as totems, certain spirits and deities.  Does your last sentence
here imply that your classification of Spiritualism does not include
religion, or that it includes religion and more?  Do you consider
religion to be a class of magic?

>I hope this clarifies.  I posted my partial draft of my taxonomy of magic in
>this group several months ago, but recieved almost no feedback.

I wasn't around then; this deals with the subject of my latest column on
"Religion and Magick" where I gave my threefold division theory.  I'd be
interested to hear more on your ideas.



-- 
Love and Laughter,             | NOTE: Private mail must go explicitly
Xeper and Remanifest,          | to drake@seismo.soar.cs.cmu.edu
                       DRAKE   | or it'll bounce back to you...
From: amanda@intercon.com (Amanda Walker)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Question/symbol
Date: Sat,  2 Jan 1993 19:34:49 -0500
Organization: InterCon Systems Corporation
Distribution: world
Reply-To: amanda@intercon.com (Amanda Walker)
NNTP-Posting-Host: chaos.intercon.com
X-Newsreader: InterCon TCP/Connect II 1.1b31

> Does anyone know the meaning/symbolism of a double-bladed axehead?  I 
> have seen this sticker on the rear bumpers of several cars lately, and 
> was curious as to it's meaning.  

It's a labrys; it was evidently used as a symbol of Goddess-worship in Crete 
before the Greeks came tromping through.  As a car decal, it generally used 
as a discrete way of saying "lesbian on board" :), sort of as a more sepcific 
variation on the rainbow flag or pink triangle.  Although it's become 
reasonably popular across the lesbian community at large, it still tends to 
carry connotations of fairly radical politics and/or spirituality.

However, as always, don't jump to any conclusions.  Someone may just have 
thought it looked cool :)--the decals are often sitting in a basket at the 
counter in women's bookstores as an impulse purchase item.  For example, if 
you're in Columbus, they probably got them down at Fan The Flames...




Amanda Walker
InterCon Systems Corporation
From: boylan@sltg04.ljo.dec.com (Steve Boylan)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Power-over/Power-from-within
Date: 30 Dec 92 19:00:29 GMT
Reply-To: boylan@ljohub.enet.dec.com (Steve Boylan)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation


In article <2B41201B.13325@news.service.uci.edu>, cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu
(Janis Maria Cortese) writes:

[ a really good point about unecessary discrete classification, which
she ends with: ]

> Yes, I'm back and snottier than ever!
> 
> Blessings, and it's good to be back!
> Janis  

Here's a handkerchief.  Welcome home!

				- - Steve

--
Don't miss the 49th New England Folk Festival,
April 23-25, 1993 in Natick, Massachusetts!
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Why the Cross?
From: drake+@cs.cmu.edu (Drake)
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 22:19:35 GMT
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon

>In the early days of Xtianity the cross was not worshipped.  In fact
>it was a point of shame that their Christ was crucified.  It was a
>social stygma to be associated with someone who was crucified.  And
>it was a way of vilifying (sp) the person who was sentenced to death.

It may also be that their Christ was not, in fact, crucified.  He may
have been executed as the Law suggests - by stoning, and then hung on
a tree.  (The cross is a "tree" only in the imagination of some
Christian writers.)  Paul and certain evangelists could have used
the image of Christ dying on the cross to convert some of the Romans,
who were opposed to the Roman rulers.  If it could be claimed that
their Messiah was killed using a notorious Roman instrument, then it
would have a much stronger emotional impact.

>They used the method of taking over the pagan places of worship and
>holidays and re-making them into Xtian places of worship and holidays.

More so, they took the pagan heroes/gods and made them into, alternatively,
saints and demons...<g>

>Christ.  It was probably adopted because society no longer had such 
>strong stygmatisms towards it and it was easy to convert it over.

Or, in the earlier days, it may have been adopted to gain acceptance
among the Roman underclass.




-- 
Love and Laughter,             | NOTE: Private mail must go explicitly
Xeper and Remanifest,          | to drake@seismo.soar.cs.cmu.edu
                       DRAKE   | or it'll bounce back to you...
From: alizard@pil
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: That RdI'V
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 92 01:19:41 PST



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Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: mtf@vipunen.hut.fi (Antti Lahelma)
Subject: Re: The Antiquity of "Christmas"
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland
Date: 26 Dec 92 21:00:41 GMT

In <MICHAEL.92Dec26125902@albert.bu.edu> michael@albert.bu.edu (Michael Chaplin) writes:

>Close, from what I understand. Christianity, back then, was a fringe
>religion, and one that was liable to get you thrown to the lions.
>Perhaps the easiest way to celebrate what's important to you without
>being punished for it is to celebrate when everybody else is- hence
>having Christmas during the Saturnalia, even though most agreed he was
>born in the early Spring. It certainly wasn't the casual adoption that
>some here may think. I think most pagans are familiar with that
>feeling though; that is, having to hide one's true religion.

 I don't think early christians celebrated the birth of christ at winter
solstice. I'm not sure if they celebrated it at all, or at least it pro-
bably wasn't as important as it later became. Only when the emperors of 
Rome had accepted christianity, and the church had enough power to start 
converting unwilling pagans to christianity, were the pagan feasts and 
traditions adapted to christianity. It was relatively easy to convince 
someone to worship st. Apollonius instead of Apollo, if you'd let the 
person celebrate the soltices in a thin christian disguise. But if you'd 
take the beloved festivals away, there would be rebellion. In most euro-
pean pagan religions, rituals and festivals were *the* important part of the 
religion. Religious doctrine wasn't that important. In christianity it was the
other way round. This is the reason why christianity didn't face quite *as*
much resistance as one might've expected. Sure, christians were thrown to
lions in Rome, but that was actually for political reasons rather than
religious. It was kinda like what the communists at first faced in Tsarist
russia. One might even find similarities in what the communists and
christians did after they'd gained victory, but I guess that's another
story :)

--
Antti Lahelma		GNOTHI SEAUTON
mtf@saha.hut.fi		 TUNNE ITSESI
From: jblain@ac.dal.ca
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: The Holly and the Ivy, and other Yule songs
Date: 23 Dec 92 14:07:10 -0400
Organization: Dalhousie University, Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

Yule greetings --

A number of us were trying to sing at the solstice. We wanted to sing "The 
Holly and the Ivy" but found that nobody knew the words! I know six lines
but after that i only know the Xtian version which was drilled into me
in school (and which always seemed to be not quite right . . .)

Help please! Can anyone forward me the words?

I'd also be interested in "The Holly King" and "Lord of the Dance" --
and anything else you see fit to send along!

Thanks in anticipation!
Yule blessings -- 

	Jenny		Jblain @ ac.dal.ca
__________________________________________________________________________
	I was in many shapes before I was released:
	.....
	I was a path, I was an eagle, I was a coracle in seas;
	I was a bubble in beer, I was a drop in a shower;
	I was a sword in hand, I was a shield in battle.
	I was a string in a harp enchanted nine years, in the water as foam;
	I was a spark in fire, I was wood in a bonfire;
	I am not one who does not sing; I have sung since I was small.

						[from The Book of Taliesin]
From: cn573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ray Henry)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Xmas Prezzie
Date: 30 Dec 1992 06:25:49 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


I was given a book as a Yule present, _Crystal Power_ by Michael
Smith.  Anyone familiar with it? 

Love and Light,

Antryg
-- 
Ray Henry   cn573@cleveland.freenet.edu

Sometimes with Bill Shankster in piggyback.  :)
From: pst@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Peter Stephen Thomas Iii)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Why the Cross?
Date: 30 Dec 92 15:10:41 GMT
Organization: Computing Services Division, University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.89.7.4

In article <C01Koo.B93.1@cs.cmu.edu> drake+@cs.cmu.edu (Drake) writes:
>>In the early days of Xtianity the cross was not worshipped.  In fact
>>it was a point of shame that their Christ was crucified.  It was a
>>social stygma to be associated with someone who was crucified.  And
>>it was a way of vilifying (sp) the person who was sentenced to death.
>

I thought that the cross, as used by the Xians was a symbol of the sacrafice
that Jesus supposedly made of himself to the world.

". . . gave His only begotten Son etc, etc, etc, . . . "

Peter Thomas

-- 
"I'll lose my beard when they shave it from my cold, dead face!"

Quote from the Razor's Anonymous Handbook
From: popec@freeside.com (PopeC)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: The Antiquity of "Christmas"
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 92 19:58:58 CST
Organization: Rivendell BBS / Hou, TX. / +1 713 941 2236

markbr%radian@natinst.com (markbr) writes:

> In article <Po5awB2w165w@freeside.com> popec@freeside.com (PopeC) writes:
> <MUNCH!>
> >Call it the 'Solstice' and be done with it.  Actually I have seen 
> >Solctice used more and more.  I have even heard rumors of Solstice Cards 
> >being available here and there.  This term is more accurate, anyway, of 
> 
> Here & there? Rumors? I send mine out every year; this year, it was even
> printed on the front of the card, along with the design (ok, ok, so I
> did the linoleum block myself; you could, too, if you wanted, or design
> them on your machine, print them out & copy them; why put up with the
> garbage on commercial cards?).
> 
> 	mark
> 


Well, yes..   But what I really had in mind when I posted that was that 
it was not just an 'inside' thing that people in a little clique did, but 
that "Solstice" seems to becoming used by members of the general public.
  I really would like to see Solstice cards available on the Hallmark(tm) 
racks with the Xmas, (secular), Xmas, (religous), and Hanakhah cards.
I hope we have a new way of seeing things here in good ol' Amurrica, and 
that it isn't just a fad.

Solstice lives, Xmas sucks.  (My own personal opinion).

Pope Charles  

Happy new year ever'one.  

**********************************************************************
* Pope Charles - Subgenius pope Of Houston & The Golden Triangle Area*
*       Laughing at everything in the Universe, including the        *
*       concept of laughing at everything in the Universe.           *
*               rivdell.sccsi.com    Houston, Texas                  *
**********************************************************************
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson)
Subject: Re: The Antiquity of "Christmas"
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 08:40:10 GMT

lip@s1.gov (Loren I. Petrich) writes:
: 
: 	The age of these monuments -- _at least_ 4000-5000 years (I
: don't recall precise figures), typically, which is a lot longer ago
: than when Jesus Christ lived.

If I recall correctly, the structures (such as Stonehenge) were started
about 1000 BCE - maybe a bit earlier.

Bill
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: luikero@pcuf.fi (Lauri Kero)
Subject: Re: Meaning of pentagram, pentacle for You
Organization: The PC-users of Finland
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1992 20:31:39 GMT

Reply_to_article_from: adams@mari.acc-admin.stolaf.edu (Brynach ap Adda)
 
> I wear a Celtic cross, which is a more ancient and thoroughly Pagan
> symbol of the old Celtic religion.
 
        Hmm, I'm not sure I know what it looks like, so could you or
        someone else give a description, or maybe even draw a crude
        ASCII-picture? Thanks, I'd appreciate it.
 
        I myself wear the six-pointed star of David. I am not Jewish,
        and have NOTHING against jews or ANY other religionistic groups.
        But I wear the star because I used to think that the pentagram
        represents the devil and nobody else, I thought like that this
        star is umm, like, opposing to it (if you might catch my
        breeze).
 
        (Oh, aren't we hip-hoppish today)
 
> pob hwyl,
 
        Pardon?
 
 
-- luikero@pcuf.fi (Lauri Kero)
From: boylan@sltg04.ljo.dec.com (Steve Boylan)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Social inhibitions to environmental change
Date: 29 Dec 92 19:37:11 GMT
Reply-To: boylan@ljohub.enet.dec.com (Steve Boylan)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation


In article <1hbkceINN3u9@leela.CS.ORST.EDU>, casspa@atlantis.CS.ORST.EDU
(Paul Cass) writes:

> Can someone kindly tell me why cats insist on standing on the keyboard
> and presenting their fanny while you are trying to type.  This cat has
> a very limited vocabulary consisting of "hold me", "feed me" "let me out",
> and "see my butt".  Come to think of it I have known a number of people
> with the same general view of life.

Uh, Paul . . . that's a female (or one-time female) cat, right?  I hope
I don't trip over any inter-species phobias, but that's an expression
of, er, um, interest in, um, YOU know . . . making kittens.

It seems that it's not unusual for female cats to respond to human male
pheromones.

Now, this big orange cat over here often responds that way, but her
preference while at the keyboard is to insist that I scratch between
her ears (when she's not chasing the cursor).

				- - Steve

--
Don't miss the 49th New England Folk Festival,
April 23-25, 1993 in Natick, Massachusetts!
From: michael@albert.bu.edu (Michael Chaplin)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: The Antiquity of "Christmas"
Date: 26 Dec 92 17:59:02 GMT
Organization: Boston University
In-reply-to: popec@freeside.com's message of 24 Dec 92 22:08:24 GMT

In article <Po5awB2w165w@freeside.com> popec@freeside.com (PopeC) writes:
  =lip@s1.gov (Loren I. Petrich) writes:

  => 
  => 	As many of you net.pagans certainly know by now, the festival
  => of Christmas is a ripoff of various pagan festivals at that time of
                       ^^^^^^
"Ripoff" is such a strong word. Let's examine this below.
  => year, intended to celebrate the upcoming return of the Sun to high
  => elevations in the sky.
   > 
[deletia]   
  => 	Any good pagan renamings? Yule?
  => /Loren Petrich, the Master Blaster
  => /lip@s1.gov

  =Call it the 'Solstice' and be done with it.  Actually I have seen 
  =Solctice used more and more.  I have even heard rumors of Solstice Cards 
  =being available here and there.  This term is more accurate, anyway, of 
  =this season.  Every ancient civilization seemed to have major festivals, 
  =or celebrations for the Solstice.  The Xians picked up on it since 
                                      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 
  =everyone else was celebrating.  Might as well join in, 'eh?
   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Close, from what I understand. Christianity, back then, was a fringe
religion, and one that was liable to get you thrown to the lions.
Perhaps the easiest way to celebrate what's important to you without
being punished for it is to celebrate when everybody else is- hence
having Christmas during the Saturnalia, even though most agreed he was
born in the early Spring. It certainly wasn't the casual adoption that
some here may think. I think most pagans are familiar with that
feeling though; that is, having to hide one's true religion.

I'd therefore refrain from calling it a "ripoff". Christianity didn't
have its beginning with Tertullian, the Pope or Pat Robertson, you
know. It will most certainly have its end there, though.

  =By celebrating Solstice rather than Xmas, we are going back to our roots.
  =And abandoning the Christ-centric venner laid over the Solstice season.
  =And good riddance says I.

You know, it's funny. There are some "back-woods" Christians who
complain that there're too many pagan elements in Xmas, you know,
holly, missletoe, Santa Claus, etc. They say there's a pagan veneer.
Personally, I'm comfortable with both.
(Which is why my Aunt gets a Christmas card, my Grandmother gets a
Hanukkah card, and my Mother gets a Yuletide card.)
  =Happy Solstice, everybody!
  =Pope Charles    Subgenius Pope of Houston.   Slack!

Enjoy the noise. Enjoy the quiet. Enjoy the Holidays, folks.
Chaplin.
--
=========================================================================
Michael A. Chaplin           If you want *their* opinions, ask *them*.
michael@albert.bu.edu ....The Einstein Papers Project, Boston, Mass., USA
chaplin@husc.harvard.edu ....Harvard University, Cambridge, Mass., USA
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: pallas@cephalo.neusc.bcm.tmc.edu (Sarah Pallas)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: The meaning of Pagan
Date: 30 Dec 1992 19:07:04 GMT
Organization: Baylor College of Medicine, Houston,Tx
NNTP-Posting-Host: cephalo.neusc.bcm.tmc.edu

In article <1992Dec29.161531.15956@cas.org> mlr21@cas.org (Mary Lee) writes:
>
>Speaking of meanings of words, I hope this is the right place to ask
>the following questions (bear with me, much descriptive text before
>the actual questions follows):
>
[Explanation of Northern Exposure episode deleted]

>>I had assumed (like Joel) that an atheist did not believe in a supreme
>being or perhaps that an atheist did not believe in any deity.  

>Given that as a definition, is an animist an atheist?
>Is a pantheist an atheist?
>Can one be both a theist and an atheist as long as one doesn't believe
>in Yahweh?

As we've seen in these debates on alt.pagan, the meaning of words is
not always clear cut.  However, I consider myself to be an atheist
(who reads this group occasionally because I'm fascinated by the
theory of religion), so I can give you MY definition.

Atheist, as in a-theist means one who is not theistic.  That is, one
who doesn't believe in a deity of any sort.  This would rule out
monotheists such as Christians, Jews and Moslems, and polytheists such
as Hindus, pagans of various sorts, and pantheists, whatever that is.
If I am correct in assuming that animists worship animals as deities,
then they would not be atheists either.  I suppose atheists could be
superstitious, or believe in supernatural causes to events (I don't)
as long as they didn't worship those supernatural phenomena?

Maybe Ruth Ann in Northern Exposure didn't get to be a real atheist
because the network had reservations about it?  Or the writers are not
too good at research?

The trouble with being an atheist is that we don't have any cool
ceremonies, or places to gather together, as you all do.  It's my
theory that that is one of the reasons atheism isn't so popular.

For what it's worth, my 2 cents,
Sarah
From: drake+@cs.cmu.edu (Drake)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Types of Magic
Date: 31 Dec 92 10:45:02 GMT
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon

hz225wu@unidui.UUCP (Micaela "Stayka" Pantke) writes:

>D> And you don't necessarily indicate what you think of 'black magick;'
>D> do you think it's a "bad" thing, or just a different way to operate
>D> that is sometimes required?
>
>As I do believe in the fact that every think you do to others falls 
>back on you at least threefold, I cannot say that black magic(k)
>would be good for me. I wouldn't like anything or anyone take energies 
>from me when I wasn't willing. 

Personally, I remain unconvinced of the 'threefold law.'  I do like
your phrasing of it, however; rather than saying that black magic is
'morally wrong' or 'evil,' you merely state that you perceive it as
harmful to the practitioner.  May I assume that if the practitioner
is willing (for whatever reason) to incur this harm, you would have
no argument with their use of black magic?

>I think that would be correct. Excuse my rather brief answer, but I'm
>in a kind of hurry, and that's the last time I have Internet access 
>this year (next time I'm online is January, the 4th).

I look forward to seeing you back here.

>This is my wish as well. Let us share our thoughts and knowledge so
>that everyone can grow. Only shared knowledge can be really fruitful.
>(Oh my does that sound dramatical - but I really do mean it!)

I know what you mean.  MY four rules of magic: To Know, To Will, To
Dare and TO SPEAK.  I find so much magic that way... <g>


>D> I think our langauge is an important tool for use in magic.
>
>I agree. Of course you have too choose carefully what to say when you 
>are working with magic(k), because words carry ideas, and ideas can
>shape our reality (in my opinion).

But are you ever NOT working with magic, really?  Isn't it important to
"watch what you say" even in the most trivial of cases?  By "say," I
include how you say it too, plus all non-verbal language.

>Walk in the Light!

Mind if I stick to the shade?  I sunburn too easy. <g>

-- 
Love and Laughter,             | NOTE: Private mail must go explicitly
Xeper and Remanifest,          | to drake@seismo.soar.cs.cmu.edu
                       DRAKE   | or it'll bounce back to you...