From: strom@Watson.Ibm.Com (Rob Strom)
Subject: Re: Humanism (personal experience)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 92 04:46:34 GMT
Organization: IBM Research

In article <1992Nov14.160626.16419@msuinfo.cl.msu.edu>, 21010JIS@MSU writes:

|> 
|> I'd like to cite a personal example of this sort of indoctrination
|> that happened in my family, but first a definitional question:
|> 
|> Re Rob's question of humanism vs. mysticism, there are obviously
|> different brands of humanism floating around. Off the top of my head,
|> I'd suggest these distinctions: 1) pantheistic humanism- you really
|> believe in gods, goddesses, mother earth, etc. and man is one of the
|> forces/gods himself; 2) chance humanism- we're all protoplasm, therefore
|> all values are relative and internally defined; 3) I'm not sure of
|> a word for this; homotheistic? anthromorphic? but anyway, man as god;
|> 4) theistic humanism- the earth was made by God for man- we are the stewards
|> of creation.

But it seems you're confusing the discussion by broadening
the term "humanism" to mean "everything Christians don't like".
If your definition can't distinguish the Druids from Paul Kurtz,
it's probably not very useful.

And it makes it too easy to generate bogus arguments
which try to refute Paul Kurtz by attacking his
Druid "coreligionists".

[story of weirdo "motivational seminars" deleted]

|> I am not at all a person who sees a new age conspiracy behind every
|> action in this country. I don't think about new age issues at all unless
|> it's discussed around me, probably because I don't have any children.
|> However, I have to tell you that I consider occult forces to be very real
|> (and evil). I am a proponent of the scientific method and consider myself
|> to be rationally minded. But....
|> 
|> Back in 1979, when I was in Silva Mind Control (BTW, fellow believers, I've
|> been prayed over, etc. on this whole issue right after I became a believer)
|> we had some demonstrations at the end to show that this stuff is effective.
|> Among other things, we paired up with people and told the other person to
|> descibe someone we were thinking of, a room in our home, etc. I told
|> someone to describe my girlfriend. They did to a tee, *including the
|> fact that she had a disclocated left knee*. They described her
|> appearence, everything, and I hadn't mentioned a word of her. I also
|> meditated and did the same for someone else, and their list was written down.
|> 
|> So, what do we have here? The Torah is very clear. I was engaging in
|> divination and witchcraft. It was real 3000 years ago and it's real now.
|> Thanks be to G-d that He paid the penalty for my sin.
|> 
You were the victim of a charlatan's tricks.

I don't know what Silva Mind Control is, but I'm sure its 
only real effect is to transfer money from your pocket
to someone else's.

There are no occult forces.  But the Torah is right
to warn you against folks who pretend that there are.

|> Rob, if you can accept the reality of witchcraft today.... I lost my
|> best friend of ten years in 1989 when I stopped to see her and her
|> beau in Pittsburgh on the way to the Messianic Jewish Messiah conference
|> and found out that she was a neo-pagen witch. I *saw* witchcraft
|> paraphernalia in her home; pentagrams, powders, robe. I read an article
|> by her maid of honor (I went to school with all of them) on how to
|> build an altar to Isis in your home so that it's not noticable. They
|> used to all live in rural Virginia in a house and hold services in the
|> backyard. And these people all hold graduate degrees in scientific fields.
|> 

I agree that there are people who call themselves neo-pagan witches,
and that there are people who build altars to Isis.  I don't agree
that they have any more access to occult forces than Terach did
with his idols.

By the way, what do you mean you "lost your best friend"?
If you really mean she died, I'm very sorry.  But if
you mean you cut off your friendship, I don't understand.
I don't post in this group that my wife "lost her brother
and sister" (they converted to Christianity).  Do you
believe in sitting shiva for Jews who convert to paganism
while condemning Jews who sit shiva for relatives who
convert to Christianity?


|> If you can accept the premise that witchraft exists today, then it is
|> logical to hypothesize that those adhering to occultic practices will
|> seek to gain apostles, either openly or through guile. I'm not saying that
|> every one practicing these things in a professed witch in a vast conspiracy.
|> I do suggest that those in the occult a) may sincerely believe in the goodness
|> of this "godlike" power, b) like the fact that it kills pain (like alcohol or
|> drugs, with the pains being those of this world or sin-guilt), c) like the
|> feeling of having power and control, d) hate theistic, absolutist faiths
|> for a variety of reasons, and/or e) want others to share their beliefs
|> (motivations for that can be altruistic, selfish, or malign).  Finally,
|> most people exposed to these teachings are exposed to fragments; the
|> underlying root is unseen, and the individual teachings seem benevolent.
|> 
Your post may be interesting, but it has nothing to do with humanism.

Witchcraft exists today.  It's just another religion.  It's
no more of a threat than any other religion that I don't agree
with.  They've got a newsgroup here:  talk.religion.newage
which talks about this stuff.  After reading it for
a few days it becomes as boring as talk.religion.christian.

Occult scams exist today.  They're not religions.  They
prey on people's propensities to believe in occult forces.
They are threats, not because the occult is real,
but because con artists of all kinds are dangerous.

We should attack occult scams of whatever flavor:
pseudo-occult or pseudo-Christian (remember the
"faith healers"??)  We should and coexist and refrain from interfering
with different religions.  Remember the Jews teach
that the righteous of all nations have a place in
the world to come.

-- 
Rob Strom, strom@watson.ibm.com, (914) 784-7641
IBM Research, 30 Saw Mill River Road, P.O. Box 704, Yorktown Heights, NY  10598