HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: autopsy@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Gregory Baumgartel)
Subject: Re: Why it sucks to be an atheist...
Organization: Northwestern University, Evanston Illinois.
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1993 04:24:02 GMT

In article <1io51qINNs1a@gap.caltech.edu> lieven@cco.caltech.edu (Lieven Pascal Leroy) writes:
>** Deep brooding mood warning **
>
>As an atheist, I usually consider religion as a necessary tool to
>impose a code of ethics people can live by, and a way to address the
>fear of what lies beyond death.
>
A tool to do so, yes.  Necessary, no.

>Not permitting myself to rely on these ready-made crutches, I have put
>together my own moral code (which I feel to be superior to the
>commercially available ones, and certainly one which better defines 'me').
>And I have wrestled with and accepted the fact that, unfortunately, I am only
>a complicated physical entity with a few decades of conscious existence.
>
Sounds to me like you've got a good start.

>Okay.  Groundwork of argument laid.
>
>The remaining item which religion has solved and I have not, I humbly submit
>for discussion among the net.wise:
>
>What, exactly, is the Point? By this, I mean: Is there a goal to be achieved,
>a level of purity on some standard to be attained, while we live?
>
>My own views so far are that, in the grand scale of things, there isn't any
>such ideal to struggle for.  Nothing you can do will last, and even if it
>could, you would ultimately gain nothing, because _you_ won't last.
>(This doesn't give one unlimited freedom to screw others over.  Detracting
>from someone else's experience of life is not acceptable.)
>
>This leaves that the goal of life is simply enjoying oneself as best one
>can, and forget about how little it all matters.  I've never been very good
>at that one (I have a confession to make...  I have a dark side. :).
>
I think you can gain, ultimately, the satisfaction that you have lived your
life to the best of your ability, and added as much to your realm of existence
as you can.  Yes, you must satisfy yourself in life, by doing what you think
is right and good.  I find the idea that one day there will be "Poof!" no more
me...a disturbing one at times.  But I have confidence and faith in myself
that I can help to make things in my life and my world turn out for the
better.  Screwing others over, for me, would detract from that satisfaction,
therefore I avoid it.  Maybe you won't last, but your accomplishments in life
can for some finite amount of time after death.  I don't think anything lasts
forever.  Except the fact of what was.

Greg


Xref: sparky alt.atheism:25460 talk.religion.misc:25620
From: pdc@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Paul Crowley)
Subject: Re: The Moron Posts Again!
Reply-To: pdc@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Paul Crowley)
Organization: Edinburgh University
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1993 00:30:39 GMT

James F Tims posts a list of studies, many of which show a positive
correlation between atheism and IQ.  In many ways, I'm not very
impressed, despite being (a) an atheist, and (b) jolly clever.  What is
this correlation supposed to demonstrate?  It's not surprising that in
a society where theism is the default option it's those given to
thinking who are most likely to change their minds, and in any case
measuring intelligence by IQ is something akin to measuring digestion
by turd length.  It certainly says nothing about whether theism is true
or not, or even for how strong the case for it is.  If only I owned a
time machine, I'd go and see whether any such correlation existed for
phrenology.
  __                                _____
\/ o\ Paul Crowley pdc@dcs.ed.ac.uk \\ //
/\__/ "I'm the boy without a soul."  \X/ 
Newsgroups: alt.atheism,talk.religion.misc,alt.pagan
From: snodgras@lclark.edu (Bil Snodgrass)
Subject: Re: Churches taxed on property value?
Organization: Lewis & Clark College, Portland OR
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 15:25:39 GMT

In article <1993Jan12.141713.9602@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> pciszek@nyx.cs.du.edu (Paul Ciszek) writes:


Well the Churches seem to be shoving the point down many of our throats that
the forefathers meant this country to be a Christian nation and that
seperation of Church and state doesn't mean seperation of church from state.

Fine, with this new interpertation I am sure it will be easier to 
tax the churchs fairly!

Bil Snodgrass III
Newsgroups: alt.atheism,talk.religion.misc
From: adams@spss.com (Steve Adams)
Subject: Re: Madeleine Murray O'Hare
Organization: SPSS Inc.
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1993 15:31:57 GMT

czl30@duts.ccc.amdahl.com (Chris Lee) writes:

>In article <11646@sun13.scri.fsu.edu> pepke@dirac.scri.fsu.edu (Eric Pepke) writes:
>>It depends on what you mean.  Disallowing a group of Christians from meeting
>>on public school property after hours when there is a general policy of 
>>allowing students to meet for whatever reason would be censorship, IMO.  Well,
>>not exactly censorship, but certainly violation of 1st amendment rights.
>>
>I agree, providing that was all they were doing. But the current fundies
>feel (I never could understand why) that they have to proselyte and
>convert. If they use this after school meeting as a base for spreading
>the word through the school, then it would be another matter completely.
The 'why' is the Great Commission, which commands Christians to go and make
disciples of all nations, etc, etc.  And so long as they do not compell
attendance at the meetings, people will come by choice...

>If they allow christians to meet, then they have to allow the other
>religions to meet. If the result of the christian meeting is handing
>out leaflets, then they have to allow other religions to hand out
>their tracts. How many christian parents would like it when little Johnny
>brings home Islamic literature from school?
What's the big deal?  I (an evangelical Christian) have two different
translations of the Qur'an, and a basic introduction to Islam.  There is no
danger in those books...any more than there is in the Bible.  They are on
my bookshelf, right next to various theology texts, bibles, etc, etc.

 -Steve
--
  The opinions expressed above are those of the author and not SPSS, Inc.
                         -------------------
   adams@spss.com                                  Phone: (312) 329-3522
   Steve Adams        "Space-age cybernomad"       Fax:   (312) 329-3558
From: jmk45295@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (John M Kaney)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Believers: What IS a 'soul' ?
Keywords: soul
Date: 10 Jan 93 16:16:59 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana



For those who believe that their 'soul'
will get to go to heaven...

What is your 'soul'?

Sure... there's the dictionary definition
which could be thought of as just 
electrical impulses in your head.

What do you say?
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
From: mam@jcnpc.cmhnet.org (Mike A. McAngus)
Subject: Re: The Bible As A Rorschach
Organization: Homebrew Virtual Reality Labs
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1993 04:50:53 GMT

Joe Beiter (joeb@arden.linet.org) wrote:
: In article <1993Jan02.214802.26663@jcnpc.cmhnet.org> mam@jcnpc.cmhnet.org (Mi
ke A. McAngus) writes:
: >Joe Beiter (joeb@arden.linet.org) wrote:
: >: In article <1992Dec31.164029.7377@jcnpc.cmhnet.org> mam@jcnpc.cmhnet.org (
Mik
: >e A. McAngus) writes:
: >
: >[deletia]
: >
: >: >OK, how about Mark 9:1.  Or are you saying that there is a 2000 year old
per
: >son
: >: >walking around somewhere?
: >:
: >:
: >: "I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death bef
ore
: >: they see the kingdom of God come with power".
: >:
: >: This could be referring to the Transfiguration or maybe even the day of
: >: Pentecost.  The verses prior to it (8:34-38) suggest the Transfiguration.
: >:
: >
: >The trasfiguration!?!?!?  Where were the angels? (Mark 8:38)  How has "the
: >kingdom of God come with power"?
:
: There is nothing to even suggest he is saying the people standing there would
: witness the return and judgment (which "comes in his Father's glory with the
: holy angels" sounds much more like).
: Jesus said they'd see the kingdom of God come with power, which they did when
: they witnessed the Transfiguration and when they witnessed his death and
: ressurection.
: As far as the Transfiguration is concerned, shoot God was there talking to
: people from a cloud and two Prophets that have been dead several centuries
: are hanging out.  Sounds like alot of power to me.

Angels.  Where are the fucking angels (or even platonic angels)?  You are the 
one who said that Mark 8:34-38 was relevant, so where are the angels from Mark 
8:38?

And just because there was "alot of power", doesn't mean any reign was 
established before everyone in the world at that time croaked.  Shoot, people 
keep talking about the second comin' and the reign of JEEZUS that will result 
after Armagedon.  What you fail to realize, is this second coming crap was 
established in the early centuries of christianity and has never died out 
since.
-- 
Mike McAngus                    |You are a fluke of the Universe.  You have no 
mam@jcnpc.cmhnet.org            |right to be here, and whether you can hear it
The Truth is still the Truth    |or not the Universe is laughing behind your 
Even if you choose to ignore it.|back.  -- National Lampoon, Deteriorata
Newsgroups: alt.atheism,talk.religion.misc,alt.pagan
From: boylan@sltg04.ljo.dec.com (Steve Boylan)
Subject: Re: Religious Taxation (was: Madeleine Murray O'Hare)
Reply-To: boylan@ljohub.enet.dec.com (Steve Boylan)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 17:43:19 GMT


In article <2935608738.2.p00168@psilink.com>, "James F. Tims"
<p00168@psilink.com> writes:

[ an illuminating discussion of why religious groups are untaxable ]

Thank you for the excellent description of the theory behind defining
religious groups as "untaxable".  However, in your closing paragraph,
you wrote:

> My position on the matter is that religious groups should pay ordinary 
> taxes that prevail in the community, taxes that provide roads, water, sewage, 
> fire and police protection and the numerous public facilities from which they 
> benefit.  To argue that the congregations' memberships have already 
> provided these monies begs the question because they were already allowed to 
> deduct their contributions to the congregation from their gross incomes. 

Er, not quite - at least not in Massachusetts.  

The taxes that provide roads, water, sewage, fire, and police protection
come from municipal taxation.  These taxes are typically taxes on real
property (homes and businesses), sales taxes, water and sewer "fees",
and so forth.  
the state and federal governments.

Except for provisions for low-income residents, these taxes are completely
unrelated to income.  There is no relationship at all between an
individual's contributions to a religious organization and that
individual's local property taxes.

				- - Steve



--
Don't miss the 49th New England Folk Festival,
April 23-25, 1993 in Natick, Massachusetts!
Xref: sparky alt.atheism:25264 talk.religion.misc:25428
From: torkel@sics.se (Torkel Franzen)
Subject: Re: Reality- What's Probable?
Organization: Swedish Institute of Computer Science, Kista
	<76569@apple.apple.COM> <1ivjtdINNh32@fido.asd.sgi.com>
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1993 00:13:29 GMT

In article <1ivjtdINNh32@fido.asd.sgi.com> livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com 
(Jon Livesey) writes:

   >What's impossible is to prove the non-existence of something which
   >is not intrinsically self-contradictory.   An entity that could, at
   >least in principle, exist.

  A couple of remarks. First, Katz made a stronger statement,
that "standards of evidence apply to positive assertions, about the 
existence of entities", suggesting that there isn't even any evidence for
other kinds of statements. Now suppose we restrict ourselves to "proof",
as you suggest. We then need to know what kind of "proof" you have in
mind. For example, apparently you hold that there is no "proof" that you
don't have a rhinoceros in the room with you as you read this. Do
you mean by "proof" a mathematical proof? A proof in formal logic?
From: livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Re: Who knows the mind of God?
Keywords: hypocrites backflip Jesus God Christians Jeff Clark
Date: 8 Jan 93 05:54:26 GMT
Organization: sgi
NNTP-Posting-Host: solntze.wpd.sgi.com

In article <ednclark.726466826@kraken>, ednclark@kraken.itc.gu.edu.au (Jeffrey Clark) writes:
>
> So Fundies, Christians or Born Agains (Whatever you want to call yourselves)
> what is it: do you know your God intimately, or don't you know him at all?
>
> Hint: You can't have both and stay out of mental asylums.

Which nicely raise the question: what features distinguish religions
from lunatic asylums, anyway?

jon.
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
From: markbr%radian@natinst.com (markbr)
Subject: Re: Madeleine Murray O'Hare
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 18:57:37 GMT
Organization: n.o.y.b

In article <11087@vice.ICO.TEK.COM> bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Robert Beauchaine) writes:
>In article <root.726502852@spssig> adams@spss.com (Steve Adams) writes:
>>
>>You make the assumption that I don't support true equal access.  You are
>>wrong.  I really don't care who or what is on TV, so long as NOONE is
>>restricted.  You want equal access for everyone EXCEPT Christians.  Nice
>>double standard you have there.
>>
>
>  Then you wouldn't mind a television show that broadcast live
>  infant sacrifices in a Satanic ritual, now would you?
>
As long as it was made clear whose ritual it was, and was prefaced
by 25 minutes of a displayed list of religious paths, churches, etc.,
explaining that this wasn't semething they did, starting out with
xian funnymentalists.

	mark

(B-^} (obligatory funny face for the humor impaired)

Newsgroups: alt.atheism
From: npm@dale.cts.com (Nancy Milligan)
Subject: Re: God, what use is it ?
Organization: Titan Linkabit Corporation
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 20:47:09 GMT

Even if there was a god, or gods, why would it want to be worshipped?
I would think that it/they have more interesting things to do than
muck about with a little mud ball named Earth.  

--
Nancy P. Milligan 				npm@dale.cts.com
Titan Linkabit					cts!dale!npm
		  Gravity is no laughing matter.
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
From: b645zaw@utarlg.uta.edu (Stephen Tice)
Subject: Re: A nation chosen by GOD -- New-Israel
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: The University of Texas at Arlington
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 05:02:00 GMT

In article <1993Jan11.100224.25145@walter.cray.com>, 
jwest@wisc (Jeff West) writes...

>I'm sure your not here because your thinking about becoming and atheist
>right?  And we're CERTAINLY not here because we want to be converted.
>So if you wish to continue posting here please be curtious of what this
>newsgroup is for.  It doesn't read alt.please.convert.me.

Jeff,

I'm certain there is nothing I can do to convert you.
That's between you and GOD <--- Which is ***** my ***** belief >.
And I don't think GOD will do so unilaterally. 

The most important recognition I think GOD extends
to one of us is *free will*. And I believe we are 
a reflection of GOD to begin with, so it's not like
GOD needs a mirror.   

Likewise, if GOD won't convert you, then I'm sure 
not going to mess with that. 

So let me know when you think I'm doing other than
expressing myself. And, please, when you just write 
an open accusation, long after an occurence. It doesn't 
help me know where the problem is. 

Let's turn this around. I smoked for about 15 years,
and I quit 5 times, before I figured out how to stay
quit. Because of that, I'm convinced that no action 
which enslaves is an act of freedom. But even though
I can tolerate being around smokers, I won't. It's
a nasty habit. If you've got a similar reaction to
being a non-deist, I'll forego overt GOD involving 
discussion with you. 

Otherwise, I think you'll find that I write in such
a way that reminds myself of The Precense. 

So we might have an instance of Second-Hand-God-Lovin'
here.=->   Is there a God-Lover's section of the
group? You know I might break out in fits of rapture
at any moment. Could be indecent -- maybe there should
be a back room?! ....Ah, hem.

Jeff, there is likely no more greater respect I can 
extend to you than leave you to work out your own
concerns. Say so, and I'm gone.

   |
-- J --
   |
   |  Stephen

Xref: sparky alt.atheism:25398 talk.religion.misc:25568
From: v22964qs@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (Mike Cluff)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism,talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Why must you act this way?
Date: 8 Jan 93 18:54:00 GMT
Distribution: world,public
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <1993Jan8.052700.16@julian.uwo.ca>, roberts@gaul.csd.uwo.ca (Eric Roberts) writes...
>In article <1ictd2INNjbr@shelley.u.washington.edu> sieferme@stein.u.washington.edu (Eric Sieferman) writes:

>>One more time, more   s l o w l y ...
>>(a) If the death AND SUFFERING of the four year old is a result of
>>her own sins, please explain what this four year old did
>>to deserve it.  I can't think of anything, and I have a 
>>busy imagination.

>Maybe he was so good that God chose to reward him by getting him out of
>here?

And if the baby suffered first?  

Hey, if you're right, maybe we should kill all babies.  After all, we'd be
doing god's will... 

******************************************************************************
For God so loved the world that He gave Man Free Will and then got pissed when
we didn't meet his arbitrary standards.  Oh, and he had his Son offed when he
realized how impossible those standards were.  -- Michael 4:23
******************************************************************************
Xref: sparky alt.atheism:25385 talk.religion.misc:25558
From: bo09+@andrew.cmu.edu (Brock Eugene Organ)
Newsgroups: alt.pcnews
Subject: Wanted: IBM PC TIFF MS FORTRAN code
Date: 6 Jan 93 22:19:08 GMT
Organization: Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA

I am currently involved in a project to implement
scanned bitmaps in a real time data collection program.
The program is written in MS FORTRAN on the IBM PC.

Does anyone know where I can find a TIFF reader,
or a good explanation on how to write one? (I have the
format,  but don't understand how it works.)

Thanks,

Brock
*****************************************************************************
Brock Organ -- bo09@andrew.cmu.edu, organ@ibalm.psy.cmu.edu
Department of Psychology,  Carnegie Mellon University

*****************************************************************************
Brock Organ -- bo09@andrew.cmu.edu, organ@ibalm.psy.cmu.edu
Department of Psychology,  Carnegie Mellon University
Newsgroups: alt.architecture
From: Todd Sandrock <@bnr.ca>
Subject: Some lovely filth down here...
X-Useragent: Nuntius v1.1.1d16
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 17:20:15 GMT
X-Xxdate: Mon, 11 Jan 93 12:25:59 GMT
Organization: Northern Telecom

If I can get some time in the next few days, I'll post some recent
newspaper articles about allegations of scandal and abuse at Carleton
University here in Ottawa.

Todd Sandrock, M.Arch
Northern Telecom Limited
Ottawa, ON
Newsgroups: alt.architecture
From: arild@milan.ims.uni-stuttgart.de (Arild Hestvik)
Subject: New England North Shore houses
Reply-To: arild@ims.uni-stuttgart.de
Organization: IMS, University of Stuttgart, Germany
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 12:59:34 GMT

We have the foundation of an old barn, on which we want to build a house in
the style found on the North Shore of Boston. These houses typically have a
"Widow's watch" on the top. In this connection, I'm searching for
literature describing these houses. Can anyone give me pointers?
From: U58100@uicvm.uic.edu (Laura Boutwell)
Newsgroups: alt.architecture
Subject: PROGRAM: SUICIDE HOME?
Date: 12 Jan 93 03:00:46 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago

I'VE BEEN ASKED BY STANLEY TIGERMAN TO DEVELOP A PROGRAM AND EVENTUALLY A
BUILDING FOR SAID TOPIC.  ANYONE KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT THE SPACE OF THE
TREATMENT OF THE SUICIDAL PERSON?  I REALIZE THIS IS POTENIALLY INFLAMMATORY
AND INCREDIBLY VAGUE, BUT IN SIMPLER TERMS, DOES ANYONE KNOW A SOURCEBOOK FOR
THE DESIGN OF MENTAL HEALTH OUTPATIENT CLINICS? ET.AL.  THANKS, LAURA BOUTWELL
U58100@UICVM.BITNET
From: jmcd@cea.berkeley.edu (John McDonald)
Newsgroups: alt.architecture
Subject: High Tech Organic
Keywords: Organic, Form, Function
Date: 11 Jan 93 23:49:19 GMT
Organization: Center for EUV Astrophysics


Here's a topic for discussion:

I have a bit of experience in the sciences where the
primary aesthetic is "Form follows function", but my
interest in architecture is of the organic sort.  
Forms of space that look to have grown right from 
the ground.  Do you think these two ideas are compatible?
I do, but haven't completed my ideas on the matter.

Reyner Banham held a class at the Univ of Calif at Santa
Cruz in High Tech Architecture, and i argued that that
form of building could be accomplished with organic 
materials (wood, brick, stone) as difficult as that may
seem.

In the Santa Cruz mountains is a house that is partially
underground, but also incorporates a former metal grain
silo with handsome porthole porches.

The closest compatibility for these ideas may come in
observatory design, where the function of the telescopes
within may require a building in which organic, aerodynamic
forms are required for optimal performance....

Ideas?

  Johnny


Newsgroups: alt.architecture
From: sandall@ccu.umanitoba.ca (Dwayne Sandall)
Subject: Are there any archives?
Organization: University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Canada
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 03:25:35 GMT

Hello,
	I am looking for any sources of information on the use and implementation
of computers in the wider realm of architecture. I have seen most of the 
regular published on paper journals, and am now wondering if there are any
electronically published or archived articles and writings on the subject.
Any help would greatly appreciated, email preferred, and I will post a summary
if required.

Thanks in advance for all your help.
-- 
	Dwayne Sandall,
		Faculty of Architecture,
			University of Manitoba
				sandall@ccu.umanitoba.ca
Newsgroups: alt.mythology
From: edstrom@Elmer.hsc.ucalgary.ca (John Edstrom)
Subject: FAQ Q
Date: Tue, 05 Jan 93 07:49:25 GMT
Organization: Neuroscience Division, U of Calgary School of Medicine, Calgary, Alberta, Canada



Is there an archive of this group?  I was told there was a thread on
Robert Graves' _White Goddess_ last October and I'd like to review it
if possible.

John Edstrom | edstrom @ elmer.hsc.ucalgary.ca

--
 RM 2104, HSc Building,  Div. Neuroscience
 U. Calgary School of Medicine,  3330 Hospital Drive NW
 Calgary, Alberta       T2N 3Y4
 (403) 220 4493  (wk)
From: ac999118@umbc3.umbc.edu (ac999118)
Newsgroups: alt.com,alt.config
Subject: Re: What is alt.com for?
Date: 5 Jan 1993 18:44:58 -0500
Organization: University of Maryland, Baltimore County Campus
NNTP-Posting-Host: umbc8.umbc.edu

Good question! hehe...
From: boyes@forty2.enet.dec.com (Mark Boyes)
Newsgroups: alt.slack
Subject: Re: n
Date: 12 Jan 93 13:11:01 GMT
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation


In article <1ik0b0INNt42@network.ucsd.edu>, spl@ivem.ucsd.edu (Steve Lamont) writes...
>In article <1993Jan8.024738.12695@nuscc.nus.sg> eng10165@nusunix1.nus.sg (TAY CHOON SENG) writes:
>>I am just testing certain commands for my TRW.
> 
>I am just dusting certain demands for my BMW.

I am ghostbusting curtain remains for my BMW


`Marky' Mark Boyes | Mantra: I'd much rather have a trampoline in my front room
16 West Court,     |         than an isolation tank.
Osney Island,      | Mail: Mark.Boyes@reo.mts.dec.com   | Kinsey rating: Nobody
Oxford, OX2 0NP    | Day: 0734 206708 Night: 0865 725151 |  knows I'm straight.
From: lone@hogbbs.scol.pa.us (John Hale)
Newsgroups: alt.slack
Subject: Re: NGHG
Date: 4 Jan 93 22:05:35 GMT
Organization: The Heart of Gold BBS, Lemont PA

morpheus@entropy.mcds.com (morpheus) writes:

> raj@netcom.com (Roger Lee) writes:
> 
> > >What of NGHG?
> > 
> > no good harvard grad?
> 
> Not Gonna Hug God?
> 

or even Nietzche, Goebbles, Hitler Goring?
Newsgroups: alt.slack