From: bes@cco.caltech.edu (Behnam Sadeghi)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.iranian
Subject: Re: Few remarks about the ongoing discussion on Baha'i Faith.
Date: 21 Jul 92 10:44:25 GMT
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena

Concerning:  The authenticity of the Qur'an and of Hadith.

In article <1992Jul20.140725.6600@ac.dal.ca> 01saeid@ac.dal.ca writes:

>Dear Behnam ;
>I read your comments ragarding the matters put forward by Kamran Hakim.
>Your notion to the matter that there is a lot of flaws in the Ahadith is
>somehow a notion that can be applied to the most of the Moslim writings.

Vague.  

>This is not due to the fact that there was cheating in any of the Islamic
>literature but the fact that our standards currently are much higher in
>demanding the correct data and methods of preserving the data makes us
>wonder as to the correctness of many books written before the few centuries
>ago.

Not true.  A *partial* cause was indeed cheating and opportunistic 
fabrications.  This isn't just my opinion.  Pretty much *all* Muslim scholars
(and non-Muslim orientalists too) know it.  It is an established fact, not a 
matter of speculation.

>As far as I know, even Qur'an was the compilations of the word of mouth.
>Most of Qur'an was written after the death of Mohammad and accepting
>Qur'an as the holy book of Islam when there is no words written and sealed
>by Mohammad himself makes us wondering if the whole procedure is correctly
>done. 

Not true.  The Qur'an was preserved during the lifetime of the Prophet
in 2 ways:  1) By writing it down (which took place under instruction
of the Holy Prophet) and by 2) Memorization.  Numerous people had memorized
it.  What you are referring to is the *collection* and *arrangement of 
the verses*.  This was initiated during the lifetime of the Prophet but
was completed after his demise.

>But as I mentioned it is just due to our current standards that we regards
>the past as uncertain events with no evidence.

Believe it or not, skeptical and often biased as non-Muslim orientalists
are, even they accept the authenticity of the Qur'an.

>Now your way of looking at Ahadith and saying there is nothing certain
>about it is the same as looking as Qur'an and saying there is nothing
>certain about it since nothing is really sealed and anybody could have
>gathered the Mohammad's ideas and compiled a book. As you are aware most
>of Qur'an is story and I wonder who had gethered these stories. I can not
>imagine the prophet writing all of the stories. They must have been word
>of mouth and things that people had heard over conversations.

First of all, I didn't say about hadith what you attribute to me; it's
not correct at all to say "there's nothing certain about [hadith]." 
There is much that *is* certain about Hadith.

Secondly, your comparison between the Qur'an and Hadith is not valid
simply because these two developed in different ways.  If you're interested,
I'll provide you with referrences that you can read for further information.

>I am asking you what logics do you believe when it comes to writings of
>Islam. Do you only believe Qur'an and nothing else or you get the facts
>from other Islamic books such as the one written by Imam Ali?

Nope.

1) Muslims believe everything in the Qur'an.
2) Each individual hadith is judged on its own merit by these 
   two criteria:

a)  Analysis of Isnad.  (Very crucial).
b)  Analysis of Matn (e.g. hadiths contradicting the Qur'an won't
                           be accepted, etc., etc.)

Muslim scholars have traditionally given more weight to the anlysis
of isnad than of matn.  Assessment of hadith is a very technical matter.  

> ...
>Instead he and all the others in the past somehow claimed to be the last
>prophets. It is due to the imperfection of the humanity that the words
>have to be twisted around. Just the same as current political game with in
>the American system in order to win the election.
>...

Frankly, I am surprised to hear a Bahai compare the Messenger of God
to a politician who would want to mislead people.

Behnam Sadeghi
Newsgroups: soc.culture.iranian