HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: esther@verdix.com (Esther Lumsdon)
Subject: Re: Observations at software firms
Organization: Verdix Corp.
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 22:09:14 GMT

kgg@mv.mv.com (Kenn Goutal) writes, with tongue firmly in cheek:
esther@verdix.com (Esther Lumsdon) replies, tongue also firmly in cheek:

>One of the original questions was "Where do programmers go after they
>turn 35?".  One of the first answers was that they fall prey to "programmer
>burnout".  While true, I think this is slightly misleading.

>	Where do professional athletes go after they turn 35?
>I don't know where most of them go, but they don't stay on as
>professional athletes.  They fall prey to "athletic burnout".
More like injury, pain, and dawning of sense ends their career, except
for baseball players.

>	Where do research scientists go after they turn 35?
>Again, who knows, but you can bet that not many of them are doing 
>research worth beans after that, but probably are managing other,
>younger researchers who haven't yet fallen prey to "researcher burnout".

>	Where do championship 'go' players go after they turn 35.
>Dunno.  Maybe they open up noodle shops.  But, to my knowledge, there
>hasn't been a world champion 'go' player over 40 in the history of the
>game.  Why?  "go player burnout".

>Bottom line:  *On average*, somewhere between 30 and 40 your brain turns
>to mush, to put it baldly.  More specifically, it doesn't work as creatively,
>nor does it have the stamina it once had;  single-bit and multi-bit failures
>become more common as brain cells die and are not replaced.  The muscles and
>joints of an athlete have a slight advantage in that the cells to get 
>replaced, but in general the body doesn't work so well after a while, either.

Yikes!  I'm aging!  Better start working on that Master's degree right away :-)

>Of course, there are exceptions.  But they are not the rule.
>The problem is not specific to programmers.

Did you rent Logan's Run last weekend?  Inquiring minds want to know!

Tsk, tsk.  You forgot the various medical professions.  You have more need of
them after you turn 35.  Nurses lose all compassion after 35.  And
doctors stop learning new stuff after 35.  And apartment managers become
grouchy people who follow rules after they turn 35.

>It might be cheaper in the long run to put everybody over <pick some age
>limit> into retirement, and quit spending corporate and government money
>trying to pretend that they are still useful.

Don't forget to take away their driver's licenses;  most people who cause
accidents while DWI are 3x-57.

-- 
------ Esther Lumsdon   employed by, not speaking for, Verdix Corporation
     It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice.
  esther@verdix.com  or  esther%verdix.com@uunet.uu.net
From: mike@pacsoft.com (Mike Stefanik)
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
Subject: Re: ParcPlace Hiring Trainers/Consultants (Mt View, CA)
Date: 21 Jul 92 18:11:57 GMT
Organization: Pacific Software Group, Riverside, CA
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4

Reg Foulkes writes:
: Next time you have a job to fill don't ask for someone with specific 
: programming skills (or engineering or whatever). Ask for someone with 
: general skills of good reading, writing and comprenhension with an interest 
: in the area required. Then test him/her to see if he seems to have the 
: right stuff (is he quick on his feet? does he read and fully understand?
: does he learn with minimal instruction?). 

Of course companies specify they want someone with specific skills; but take
note that this is a *wish list* for the employer.  In all cases, there is
a compromise between what the employer wants, and who is available for the
price the employer is willing to pay.

One of the points that I was trying to make was that "testing" is really
pointless.  Have someone scribble algorithms on pieces of paper is a waste
of time; it tells you nothing.  The important things that come out of an
interview (insofar as I am concerned) are:

	* Is the person well grounded in the fundamentals?
	* Is the person willing to admit weaknesses?
	* Is the person confident and enthusiastic about the job?
	* Do I like this person?  Can I work with him or her?

Much of what goes on in an interview has nothing to do with technical
competence (or lack thereof)... it has to do with the relationship that
is established between interviewer and interviewee. 
-- 
Mike Stefanik  mike@pacsoft.com  ...!uunet!pacsoft!mike  (+1 714 681 2623)
Pacific Software Group, Riverside, CA
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
From:  serg@factinfo.khabarovsk.su (rewa sergey vladimirovich)
Subject: we are open to co-operation
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 07:27:13 GMT
Reply-To: serg@factinfo.khabarovsk.su
Organization: Fact-INFO

A company from Far East of Russia invites You to enter our market through the
Far Eastern Gate....You are welcome!
We're strongly interested in co-operation of any kind so we'd like to
get any info related to the problem.Below is detailed description of our
company
-----------
 FactInfo company. General information

  FactInfo was established in November 1990 in Khabarovsk and was incorporated
as a limited responsibility company. FactInfo specializes in the following
fields:
  1. Delivery,wholesaling and retailing of computers and other
     electronic equipment both for office and home
  2. After sale maintenance of above mentioned equipment
  3. Development of software, LAN delivery and installation
  4. Wholesaling and retailing of consumer goods
  5. Investing activities

  FactInfo company is among the founders of Dalpromstroybank, two
commodity exchanges, Russian Savings Bank, Bizon-Capital commercial bank
and other other commercial institutions.
  The general financial data of the company for 1991 as follows:
  - fixed assets   8 million roubles
  - inventory      120 million roubles
  - profit         28.1 million roubles

The company has its branches in the cities of Moscow, Komsomolsk and
Ulan Ude.FactInfo works with more than 800 customers. The number of
employees is 60. The company has 3 stores on condition of longterm
lease in downtown Khabarovsk.
  The company is ready to consider and negociate proposals for:
  - cooperation in all the fields of our activities
  - organizing of sales exhibitions of electronic equipment and consumer
    goods in Khabarovsk.
  - import of such equipment and goods
  - construction of offices,trade centres and hotels
  - assistanse in freight transportation in Khabarovsk and surrounding
    regions
  - advertising in mass media
  - creation of electronic equipment assembling enterprise
  - foreign investments
  - distributing activity
  - projects on satellite communication systems

  We would appreciate all your comments and suggestions.

                      the company general director
                                 Evgeny Pokusay
 -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|                  | Org    | FactInfo Ltd                                    |
|                  | Mail   | 28 Muravyev-Amursky st.Khabarovsk,680000,Russia |
|                  | Usenet | serg@factinfo.khabarovsk.su                     |
|                  | Phone  | (4210) 331778,336332                            |
 -----------------------------------------------------------------------------






Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
From: oleary@epx.cis.umn.edu ()
Subject: Re: Need suit and tie for a job interview ??
Organization: University of Minnesota
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 04:25:05 GMT

In article <1992Jul22.221444.28891@dartvax.dartmouth.edu>
paw@coos.dartmouth.edu (Pat Wilson) writes, among other things:

>oleary@epx.cis.umn.edu () writes:
>
>>Rather than blindly holding a belief, why not seek the truth?  Has it
>>occurred to you that one candidate may not have been born with silver
>>spoon in mouth, but was forced to work and struggle to attain the education
>>that was handed to the "senator's son"?  What kind of streets have you tried
>>to walk down in a suit?  Isn't it possible that a person dresses not as they
>>would like to, but in the only way they can afford to?
>
>You're veering from the point.
>I've *never* met a person that couldn't afford (a) soap and water, (b)
>to comb their hair, and (c) to wash their clothes.  I doubt that _anyone_
>with the capabilities to function in the type of positions *that are being
>discussed here* can't afford at least a clean (note: not necessarily *new*) 
>shirt with a tie and clean pants.

You can doubt all you want, but until you *know*, save it.  Who you have
met seems to be quite limited.  Like I said above, what kind of streets have
you tried to walk down in a suit?  Hell, what kind of streets have you walked
down?  Not the same one's I've walked down, it appears.

I don't discriminate against poverty.  All I ask is that you do the same.
The poor remain poor only because you do not give them a chance to succeed.

         ---------   Doc


+------------------->  Signature Block : Version 3.7  <---------------------+
|                                                                           |
|                   "The only reward of virtue is virtue;                   |
|                the only way to have a friend is to be one."               |
|                                            --- Ralph Waldo Emerson        |
|                                                                           |
+---------------->   Copyright (c) 1992 by Doc O'Leary   <------------------+
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
From: johnd@lloyd.Camex.COM (John Duesenberry)
Subject: getting laid off
Organization: Camex Inc., Boston MA
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 13:35:16 EDT

I have recently learned that the company I work for, which is in deep
financial doody, has canceled the software development project to
which I was assigned, and that there is going to be a "downsizing"
(love that term!) soon. 
	As in all such situations, bizarre rumors are circulating. Here is
one that concerns me: that the company wishes to cut costs by eliminating
as many employees as possible, but also wishes to avoid the costs
normally associated with layoffs. (such as severance pay, and paying
into the state's unemployment-compensation fund so that ex-workers
can collect unemployment comp., etc.) Therefore, it is said, they plan
to offer people "new" positions that are actually demotions at drastically
lower pay, or are otherwise inappropriate or designed to be totally
unacceptable to the employee - thus forcing the employee to quit
"voluntarily." Thus, the co. would not have to pay severance and the
employees could not file for unemployment, etc.
	My question is - IS THIS LEGAL? What are my rights here? If this
scenario is true, do I have grounds for legal action? What state agencies
(I'm in Massachusetts) might I contact for help?
	Any advice would be appreciated....
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
From: akerson@deimos.srg.af.mil (Pete Akerson - akerson%srg@uunet.uucp)
Subject: More on glass ceilings
Organization: ARINC Research, Corp.
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 92 17:05:26 GMT



Sounds like what we're all talking about here is a class distinction
between management and workers. (no, I'm no flaming Red !)
The managers at (sounds like many) engineering firms see themselves
as of a different social caste than the workers, much in the same
way the managers of a coal mine do. 
So I assert that engineers, programmers, etc. are just expensive
coal miners; very little has changed in workplace dynamics since 1900.
--
Reply-to: akerson%srg@uunet.uu.net
Or sometimes: akerson@srg.UUCP  or akerson@srg.uunet.uu.net
Disclaimer: X was invented by the Japaneese in order to sell more memory chips.
- Pete 		akerson@srg.srg.af.mil is the wrong address.
From: coyote@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (cats)
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
Subject: Proofreading or First reader jobs...
Date: 26 Jul 92 16:56:36 GMT
Organization: Purdue University Computing Center


I am looking for a job as a proofreader or first reader for 
a publishing house.  I would like to receive manuscripts via
mail, after which I would proofread and send them back.
If anyone knows of any openings, or has any advice or info, please 
e-mail me at  coyote@mentor.cc.purdue.edu

thank you,
jana
From: Eli.Mantel@bbs.oit.unc.edu (Eli Mantel)
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
Subject: AS400, RPG III -- Chicago, IL (recruiter)
Date: 24 Jul 92 02:29:18 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Extended Bulletin Board Service


        work location: Chicago, IL
                 rate: $35-45K
   skill requirements: AS400, RPG III
 
AS400, RPG III -- Programmer Analyst -- $35-45K.
3-5 years experience required.
 
If you are interested in this opening, please contact:
            Spencer and Associates, Inc.
            Attn: Bill Williams
            212 N. 34th Street
            Rogers, AR 72756
     Phone: 501-631-1300
       FAX: 501-631-1551
 
This notice is being posted for a firm that does not have Internet access.
Please send your resume by FAX or U.S. mail to ensure consideration for the
opening.  Thank you.
--
   The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the University of
     North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the Campus Office for Information
        Technology, or the Experimental Bulletin Board Service.
           internet:  bbs.oit.unc.edu or 152.2.22.80
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
From: rmg@sei.cmu.edu (Richard Green)
Subject: Re: Where do old programmers go?
Organization: The Software Engineering Institute
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 15:25:23 GMT


We advance to positions of authority where we can ruin the careers of
arrogant young snots who won't wear suits to job interviews! ;-)
From: lugeon@lsesun3.epfl.ch (Jean-Claude LUGEON)
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
Subject: wanted aupair girl
Keywords: aupair girl, job
Date: 29 Jul 92 15:45:36 GMT
Organization: Laboratoire de Systemes d'Exploitation - E P F Lausanne, Switzerland


	URGENT ... 


	Wanted aupair girl for 3 children (girl 5, twin boys 4), driving 
	licence needed. 

		
	Please contact Mrs Kimber ++41-21.824.10.36
		       CH-1184 Luins (Switzerland)
From: bonnett@seismo.CSS.GOV (H. David Bonnett)
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
Subject: Re: Security Clearance
Date: 30 Jul 92 13:14:08 GMT
Organization: Center for Seismic Studies, Arlington, VA


In article <4198@astroatc.UUCP>, weeks@astroatc.UUCP (Pat Weeks) writes:
|> 
|> 	Does anyone know how you can request to be checked for Security 
|> Clearance.  Most of the time they just do it when your job requires it, 
|> but I wondered if you could just call up and say, "Hey, could you check 
|> me out for Top Secret??"  
|> 
|> 	Do you think they would do it or do you have to have some good, solid
|> reason.

Well, given the cost of performing a security check (I have heard it
to be around 30-40K for a Top Secret), I expect you would have a
difficult time getting someone to "give" you a clearance.

  Second, clearances are on a "need to know" basis. You get one so that
you can do your job, not so it helps on your resume. People in the business
can have their clearances revoked if they cannot prove that they _have_ to
have them.  The fewer people who have access, the less of a security concern.

PS: Having a clearance ain't *real* exciting... I wouldn't pay for one....

-dave bonnett-   Center for Seismic Studies;  Arlington, VA 
      bonnett@seismo.css.gov :  (703) 276-7900 	Pop Kid Internationale
"Rec would be ridiculous, people would start posting stupid things."
(Stephanie da Silva on alt.folklore Straw Poll)
--
-dave bonnett-   Center for Seismic Studies;  Arlington, VA 
      bonnett@seismo.css.gov :  (703) 276-7900 	Pop Kid Internationale
"Rec would be ridiculous, people would start posting stupid things."
(Stephanie da Silva on alt.folklore Straw Poll)
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc,misc.jobs.offered,ne.jobs
From: jka@windshear.larc.nasa.gov (J. Keith Alston)
Subject: Re: Observations at software firms
Organization: NASA Langley Research Center, Hampton, VA  USA
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 16:48:18 GMT

I think that what happens to alot of older more experienced programmers
is that they've gotten so good that they've made the job look easy. This
gives the manager guys the idea that anyone can do the job. The programmers
pay is starting to get higher so the management folks get the idea that
it would be better to get someone straight out of school and replace that
older programmer. This mentality, I think is what really burns out programmers,
Its not being appreciated for what you can do. Its not dead brain cells or
loss of ability, it lack of respect!!!

-- 
************************      Don't just do it!     ***********************
Lockheed Eng. and Sci. Co./Nasa Larc|J. Keith Alston jka@windshear.larc.nasa.gov
From: laws@ai.sri.com (Kenneth I. Laws)
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
Subject: Re: Is dot-matrix OK?
Date: 26 Jul 92 22:41:43 GMT
	<R7NPNB1w164w@yngbld.gwinnett.com> <1992Jul13.181154.11030@unislc.uucp>
	<1992Jul13.201440.24398@zip.eecs.umich.edu> <62465@cup.portal.com>
Distribution: usa
Organization: Computists International
In-reply-to: ts@cup.portal.com's message of 20 Jul 92 17:18:47 GMT

Incidentally, the cost of buying your own laser printer isn't
high if you've got some cash available.  Buy a used model,
use it for your resumes and cover letters until you get
a job, and then sell it.  Deduct any loss on your income
tax form, as a job-hunting expense.  (Or deduct the original
purchase price as a business expense, if you're using the
printer only for business purposes.)  You might even make
a profit on the deal.

					-- Ken
--

Dr. Kenneth I. Laws, (415) 493-7390, laws@ai.sri.com.
Moderator of the Computists International AI/IS/CS mutual-aid association.
Ask about my weekly online career newsletter, The Computists' Communique.
From: tr@samadams.princeton.edu (Tom Reingold)
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
Subject: Re: Average Salaries for Systems Administrators Needed
Date: 28 Jul 92 13:36:09 GMT
Organization: Noo Joizy, USA

rrg@fibercom.COM (Rhonda Gaines) writes:


$ I need an idea of the salary ranges out there (Eastern U.S.
$ preferred) for systems administrators.

In the eastern US, salaries for system administrators range from about
$25,000 per year to $120,000 per year.

What's that you say?  It's a very broad range?  Yes, but your question
was broad.  The title "system administrator" is not as descriptive as
we would like it to be.  I've met some SA's who just add logins and run
backups using menu-driven programs.  On the other hand, I've met some
who can find and fix bugs in device driver source code or even write it
for new device types.  Qualifications range from knowing how to turn a
terminal on to an PhD.  Environments range from universities, where
salaries are usually lowest, to Wall St, which is where people are at
the top of the range I gave above.  On Wall St, you are expected to
work a 12 hour day and that's not including the night and weekend work
for upgrades and unexpected problems.
--
        Tom Reingold
        tr@samadams.princeton.edu  OR  ...!princeton!samadams!tr
        "Warning: Do not drive with Auto-Shade in place.  Remove
        from windshield before starting ignition."
Xref: sparky misc.jobs.misc:5461 alt.activism:13721 alt.politics.elections:9351
From: jdr@starflight.Corp.Sun.COM (Jon Roland)
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc,alt.activism,alt.politics.elections
Subject: Action Needed on Section 1706
Followup-To: misc.jobs.misc
Date: 30 Jul 1992 05:00:21 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Distribution: usa
Reply-To: jdr@starflight.Corp.Sun.COM
NNTP-Posting-Host: starflight.corp.sun.com

We are now at a critical juncture in the legislative process at which letters
to congressmen are needed calling for the repeal of Section 1706 of the
Internal Revenue Act.

For those of you new to the subject, Section 1706 removes the "safe harbor"
that previously protected job brokers and their clients from liability if
a person working for them who represented himself to them as a "contractor"
is found by IRS to have been an "employee". To avoid the hassle of an audit,
even when they have adequate proof that the worker is a bona fide contractor,
too many clients and brokers are overcomplying and refusing to take on such
contractors, and insisting instead that they work with the status of an
"employee". Only certain technical contractors, such as computer programmers,
are affected by this Section.

The effect of this Section has been to suppress independent computer consultants
and small consulting firms, driving many of them out of business. It has also
made it more difficult for many companies to get needed expertise, especially
for small projects that cannot justify hiring an employee, and it has left
many over-35 computer experts unemployed because the only way many of them
can work is as consultants.

This was the intended effect of the Section by its sponsors, who are large
consulting firms that are trying to use it to drive their smaller competitors
out of the market, even through it is also driving many out of sections of 
the market that these larger firms do not even try to address, such as
systems integration and software development for smaller clients. They openly
discuss this objective at their meetings, and aim to eventually drive out
not only third-party brokers but small consulting firms themselves even when
they get their contracts directly.

A Treasury Department study showed that the Section does not increase revenues
to the government, but probably reduces them, perhaps substantially.

It is a prime example of anti-competitive special-interest legislation that
needs to be opposed on principle, and which affects everyone in the computer
business, even those who are currently employed. Any of you may need to work
as a consultant someday, perhaps sooner than you think. You have a personal
stake in this matter.

Write those letters today. The addresses are

	Rep. xxx
	House Office Bldg
	Washington, DC 20515
or
	Sen. yyy
	Senate Office Bldg
	Washington DC 20510

Tell them you want Section 1706 repealed. Ask them to tell you what their
position is on Section 1706, and what they have done to repeal it. Ask them
for a copy of the bill that would repeal it (there is one).

Write those letters now!

---

jdr@starflight.corp.sun.com, starflt@uunet.uu.net
Jon Roland
Starflight Corporation, 1755 E Bayshore Rd #9A,
Redwood City, CA 94063-4142, 415/361-8141

Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
Subject: Re: Where do old programmers go?
From: bclaus@cs.wright.edu (Brian Clausing)
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 04:51:13 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Wright State University

> In article <1992Jul27.140210.8254@compu.com> fr@compu.com (Fred Rump from home) writes:
>>hnoble@polari.online.com writes:
>>
>>>management that's hostile because of my age (yet), although I've had
>>>a number of fights because of my radical politics and tendency to
>>>organize unions.
>>
>>Unions? For programmers? Isn't that taking the art of programming down to the 
>>level of steering a truck across the country? How any real programmer would 
  [ ...the rest was dropped...]
> 
> You gotta be kidding if you think professional programmers become "mediocre"
> by signing a contract guaranteeing decent hours, pay and training.  What
> better way to protect the artistry of programmingda quality of work than
> with a written contract?

The problem, sir, is not that the professionals become mediocre but
that the mediocre become union members!

Brian Clausing