From: condic@gw.wmich.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
Subject: USTASHA GENOCIDE
Date: 15 Oct 92 09:35:02 EST
Organization: Western Michigan University

SORRY FOLKS, THERE SEEMS TO HAVE BEEN SOME TRANSMISSION PROBLEM,
SO I WILL TRY REPOSTING. J CONDIC

REPLY TO MILAN STOJANOVIC POSTING OF 13 OCT, CITED BELOW IN ITS
ENTIRETY.
Subject: Re: USTASHA GENOCIDE
From: stojanov@husc11.harvard.edu (Milan Stojanovic)
Date: 13 Oct 92 20:20:39 EDT
In article <1992Oct13.182948.5797@gw.wmich.edu> condic@gw.wmich.edu writes:
>If you love the truth, Good Morning!

Good morning, Mr. Kondic.

> If you do not, no human communication is possible!
>
>NO MORE LIES--Reposting #28
>

Mr. Kondic, does this mean that you have for 28 times repeated
something that is false? 

>"To claim that ca. 700,000 [Serbs] were killed in the

I agree, number is probably closer to 500.000 victims overall, i.e.
including Jews, Gypsies, some Croats, even some Muslims.

>concentration camp at Jasenovac is pure nonsense. One has
>to ask oneself: How could it have been possible, when
>within the borders of today's Croatia and Bosnia-Hercegovina
>there were ca. 1,966,000 Serbs in 1941, and 1,610,000
		''''''''''    		     ''''''''''

You see, the first number was number of Orthodox people in, 
what are now, more or less, Croatia and B&H.  The second 
number is number of people that declared themselves as Serbs, 
some of them Muslims, some of them Catholics, most of 
them Orthodox.  You want some examples?   Sure, Alija Izetbegovic
counted himself as Serb in 1948.  Before war he was counted as
Muslim.  You got a picture, I hope?  The second example is, I guess
you have never heard about Mesa Selimovic.  On each census in
the post-WWII Yugoslavia he claimed to be a Serb, unlike on
the pre-war census. 	
Anyway, it is the most unfortunate for me, and for some members
of my family, that you are wrong.  Otherwise Serbs would be still
majority in Bosnia, Vukovar, Ilok, itd.   Actually, now we are
majority, again, thanks to people like pres.Tudjman, who 
provoked all this by denying that something happened, and by 
being caught in attempt to repeat it.  Three times in the same century, 
isn't it too much to expect from Serbs to go through? 

>in 1948--and this in spite of many migrations and many
>killings not attributable to the ustasha?"
>--Dr. Bogoljub Kocovic, World War II Victims in Yugoslavia,
>(in Serbian), Veritas Foundation Press, London, 1985, p. 54.
>
>-- 
>************************************************************
>ANYONE CAN HAVE AN OPINION ON ANYTHING,INSTANTANEOUSLY! BUT,
>OPINIONS, AS SUCH, ARE GENERALLY WORTHLESS, UNLESS THEY ARE
>WELL-GROUNDED ON SOUND EVIDENCE AND VALID ARGUMENTS! J.CONDIC,
>E-MAIL:CONDIC@GW:WMICH.EDU;GEN.STUDIES,WMU,KALAMAZOO,MI 49008
>*************************************************************

Regards,

Milan N. Stojanovic


Dear Mr Stojanovic:
In answer to your question: Yes, I have reposted my brief
quote from Kocovic 28 times. You are among the very few 
who have commented on it, or challenged it. In reply to
your objection to it, I am reposting H. Galic's post of
September, 1991. After reading it, you will be aware that
others arrive at approximately the same figures to which
you object as methodologically erroneous.
Sincerely, Joseph M Condic

Subject: VICTIMS OF WORLD WAR II IN YUGOSLAVIA (Was: Albanian and Croatian majorities)
From: na0i+@andrew.cmu.edu (Nenad Antonic)
[	This is a repost of an article posted at the beginning of
	September, by H. Gali\'c.	
		I hope that those interested will find some reliable
	data -- obtained by a Serbian scientist, not fictionist,
	besides some others.						]
        VICTIMS OF WORLD WAR II IN YUGOSLAVIA:
        FACTS
[This document was prepared by the "Rugjer Boskovic" Chapter of AMAC]
 
The war of Serbia and the Yugoslav Army against Croatia is waged on
the battlefield, but also in the world media. The most undignified
aspect of the media war is the manipulation of the "Book of the Dead"
of World War II.
 
In the Balkans, World War II included the struggle against the Nazi
invaders, but also a genocidal "settling of old accounts" among nations.
Both Serbs and Croats were the principal victims and principal villains,
but no nation in Yugoslavia was spared the bullet, knife or gas chamber.
 
The magnitude of the genocide committed by the Nazi-installed Ustasha
regime against Serbs in the "Independent State of Croatia" (today
Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina) has been argued with particular passion.
Various numbers of Serb (and Jewish) victims of genocide have been used
by Serbs and Croats to argue that the latter are "the most genocidal
nation" or to refute this contention. The Serbian press in Yugoslavia
and abroad and some Western media have used the number of 750,000 Serb
victims. Recently, however, a part of English-language press started
to quote just "thousands" or "tens of thousands".
 
The purpose of this document is to identify verifiable public
information on WW II victims in Yugoslavia. The paucity of politically
untainted information on this question is surprising given the importance
of the issue in the current political debate. This document is no more
than a summary of third party data. It does not imply any judgment or
political attitude. Rather, it is intended to stimulate the reader to
research  these issues from works quoted here and from other sources.
 
Three studies were identified as based in direct demographic surveying
and/or in scientific analysis of demographic data: In 1964, the Yugoslav
government surveyed victims of WW II to support its claim for war
reparations. The Serb emigre scholar Bogoljub Kocovic and the Croat
demographer Vladimir Zerjavic analyzed demographic data. We did not
consider sources provided by politicians, even when they have scholarly
credentials (e.g., Croatian president Franjo Tudjman or Serbian
historiographer Vasilije Krestic). Here we neither analyze the
credibility of sources nor discuss them. We do not claim that these
data are correct, but are not aware of any serious rebuttal. Estimates
based on reports by Western missions to Yugoslavia during World War II
and on declassified OSS war reports are devoid of demographic basis and
are not analyzed here.
 
Numbers of World War II victims in Yugoslavia vastly different from
those summarized below are simply not supported by published evidence.
 
                         ---------------------
 
1. Dr. Bogoljub Kocovic: Zrtve drugog svetskog rata u Jugoslaviji
(World War II Victims in Yugoslavia; in Serbian), Veritas Foundation
Press, London, 1985.
 
>From the Introduction, pp. 17-20:
 
"The peoples of Yugoslavia experienced tremendous losses. Other European
nations were victim mostly of German imperialist aggression. But in
Yugoslavia, one must add the victims caused by the armies of various
German satellites and casualties in fights between innumerable local
units and movements participating in a multi-faceted civil war:
Ustashas, Domobrans, the White Guard, Balists, Nedic and Ljotic
volunteers, Folksdeutschers (ethnic Germans), Chetniks, and Partisans..."
 
"Victims continued to accrue even after the end of the war, due to
liquidation of political opponents by the communists. This process was
completed by the time of the census of 1948, and it is fully justified
to take into account these post-war victims of communist terror too.
But for the civil war, these post-war deaths would not have occurred..."
 
 
"I considered as my duty to examine the number and the nature of war
victims in Yugoslavia. The task involved, of course, serious and
protracted research. At first, I believed that all it takes would be
good will and objectivity. And the data, of course. But as I went
deeper to the core of the issues, I started to perceive the enormity of
problems I was facing..."
 
"Very soon it dawned upon me that the major obstacle to my work would
be the myths created over four decades about the number of victims,
myths by now deeply implanted in the souls of the people of all
religions, political beliefs, and nationality, myths which, by
repetition, became a "reality". There will be many who will reject
my study because it does not conform with their beliefs..."
 
"This study does not discriminate between those who fell fighting
against fascism, and those Yugoslavs who died as result of our own
civil war..."
 
"People died. No rebellion, even though justified, no sorrow, as deep
and as sincere as it may be, will ever bring them back. Revenge would
not change anything; it would only further weaken Yugoslav peoples and
the country as a whole."
 
 
The most important tables from this work follow.
 
ACTUAL  VICTIMS  OF  WAR  BY  NATION
(p. 124)
 
Nation             Estimate        Possible Variation
___________________________________________________________
Serbs              487,000         452,000-528,000
Montenegrins        50,000          48,000-52,000
Croats             207,000         190,000-240,000
Muslims             86,000          80,000-100,000
Slovenes            32,000          28,000-36,000
Macedonians          7,000           5,000-10,000
Albanians            6,000           4,000-8,000
Ethnic Germans      26,000          20,000-50,000
Hungarians           5,000           3,000-10,000
Roms (Gypsies)      27,000          20,000-35,000
Jews                60,000          57,000-63,000
Others              21,000          10,000-33,000
____________________________________________________________
TOTAL            1,014,000         917,000-1,165,000
 
 
 
 
 
ACTUAL  WAR  VICTIMS  BY  REPUBLICS
(p. 182)
 
Nationality              Number of Victims (to the nearest thousand)
_____________________________________________________________________
                   in Croatia    in Bosnia-Herzegovina   in Serbia
_____________________________________________________________________
Serbs/Montenegrins   125,000           209,000            151,000
Croats               124,000            79,000              4,000
Muslims                    0            75,000              6,000
Ethnic Germans         6,000             1,000             16,000
Roms (Gypsies)        15,000             5,000              5,000
Jews                  17,000            10,000             26,000
Others                 8,000             3,000             19,000
_____________________________________________________________________
TOTAL                295,000           382,000            227,000
 
 
 
 
PERCENT  ETHNIC  LOSS  PER  REPUBLIC
(p. 111 and item 35, p. 184)
 
Serbs/Montenegrins in:  Croatia                 16.3 %
                        Bosnia-Herzegovina      14.6
                        Montenegro              11.6
                        Macedonia               10.9
                        Serbia                   3.1
 
Croats in:              Bosnia-Herzegovina      11.4 %
                        Croatia                  4.2
 
Muslims in:             Bosnia-Herzegovina       7.4 %
                        Montenegro               6.0
                        Serbia                   4.7
 
(This means, e.g., that 16.3% of Serbs/Montenegrins in Croatia
 were killed during the war, 83.7% survived the war).
 
 
 
 
On several occasions the author quotes myths which had become a part
of the official Yugoslav propaganda:
 
"Although it is difficult with utmost precision to establish the number
of demographic, let alone actual, war victims in Yugoslavia, it can
still be categorically asserted that some figures used both in the
country and among the emigre groups abroad are pure fantasy, not to
say something else. To claim 1,700,000, or even 3,000,000 actual victims,
is absolutely indefensible. Consequently, to claim that ca. 700,000 were
killed in the concentration camp at Jasenovac is pure nonsense.
One has to ask oneself: how could have it been possible, when within
the borders of today's Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina there were
ca. 1,966,000 Serbs in 1941, and 1,610,000 in 1948 - and this in spite
of many migrations and many killings not attributable to the Ustashas."
(p. 54)
 
"The actual figure of victims among Serbs and Montenegrins is between
500,000 and 580,000. This is a lot, too much by far. But for many
nationalists among the Serbs, the number will appear to be "scandalously"
low. Many of them are looking for spiritual food to ignite their hatred
of the Croats. There is a deep conviction, not to say a myth, about a
million, if not more, Serbs killed by Croats. There is a belief that
it was only Serbs who suffered real losses. So, in the Serbian emigre
circles one finds various unsupported figures: that the Germans executed
ca. 250,000 Serbs; that between 100,000 and 250,000 Serb youths died on
the Srem front; that the Ustashas killed 600,000 Serbs in 1941 and 1942.
In each instance, these figures are parts of a myth generated by those
circles." (p. 101)
 
                         ---------------------
 
 
2. Dr. Vladimir Zerjavic, The losses of Yugoslav population in the
second World War (in English), Geographical Papers 8: 83-107; 1991,
Institute of Geography, University of Zagreb, Zagreb.
(This is a comprehensive summary of the book under the same title
Zerjavic published in Croatian.)
 
 
Kocovic's figures have been independently arrived at by Dr. Vladimir
Zerjavic. Here are his totals (from Table 8, p. 96):
 
 
WORLD  WAR  II  VICTIMS  IN  YUGOSLAVIA  PER  NATION
 
Serbs                                   530,000
Croats                                  192,000
Slovenes                                 42,000
Macedonians                               6,000
Montenegrins                             20,000
Muslims                                 103,000
Czechs                                    1,000
Poles                                     1,000
Russians/Ukrainians                       5,000
Hungarians                                2,000
Ethnic Germans                           28,000
Albanians                                18,000
Turks                                     2,000
Jews                                     57,000
Romanians                                18,000
Other                                     2,000
_______________________________________________________
TOTAL                                 1,027,000
 
 
 
The same table gives the numbers per republics too. For the more numerous
Yugoslav nations these numbers are (in thousands):
 
            Bosn-Herz.  Monten.  Croatia   Macedon.  Slovenia   Serbia
 
Serbs          164        6        131       6          0        190
Croats          64        1        106       0          0          7
Slovenes         0        1          2       0         32          1
Montenegrins     0       20          0       0          0          0
Muslims         75        4          2       4          0         15
Hungarians       0        0          1       0          0          1
Albanians        0        4          0       0          0         14
Jews             9        0         10       0          0         14
 
 
 
Abroad (in thousands):  Serbs        33         Muslims       3
                        Croat        14         Hungarians    0
                        Slovenes      6         Albanians     0
                        Macedonians   0         Jews         24
                        Montenegrins  0
 
 
                       ------------------------
 
 
 
3. Zeljko Kruselj and Gjuro Zagorac: Sporna knjiga mrtvih
(The Contested Book of the Dead; in Croatian) Danas (Zagreb)
November 11, 1989, pp. 24-25.
This is an analysis of the 1964 Yugoslav Government Study of World
War II Victims.
 
 
 
To exact war reparations from Germany, in 1964 the Yugoslav Government
undertook a systematic survey of World War II victims. Earlier, Germany
rejected the original Yugoslav claim of 1,700,000 war victims;
therefore, the 1964 survey was performed with great care to satisfy
the pedantic Germans. The results of the new survey were much lower.
The report was immediately classified, to be made public only in 1989.
 
The survey did not include losses of ethnic Germans and the fallen
fighting on the side of various quisling formations. Kruselj and Zagorac
conclude that if these casualties had been included, the total would
agree closely with the results of Kocovic and Zerjavic.
 
 
Here are presented the numbers of dead by republics and the numbers of
dead by nationality, as found by the 1964 survey:
 
 
NUMBERS OF WORLD WAR II VICTIMS BY REPUBLIC
 
   Yugoslavia                      597,323
   Bosnia-Herzegovina              177,045
   Montenegro                       16,903
   Croatia                         194,749
   Macedonia                        19,076
   Slovenia                         40,781
   Serbia                           97,728
   Vojvodina                        41,370
   Kosovo                            7,927
   Unknown                           1,744
 
 
VICTIMS OF WORLD WAR II PER NATIONALITY
(totals and percentage of grand total)
 
     Serbs                346,740                 58.0 %
     Croats                83,257                 15.9
     Slovenes              42,027                  7.0
     Macedonians            6,724                  1.1
     Montenegrins          16,276                  3.1
     Muslims               32,200                  5.4
     Jews                  45,000                  7.5
     Turks                    686                  0.1
     Albanians              3,241                  0.5
     Hungarians             2,680                  0.5
     Slovaks                1,160                  0.2
     Others                16,202                  2.5
                                                ---------
                                                 100.0 %
 
 
Again, remember that this survey includes only victims that could be
legitimately claimed for reparation purposes.
 
                          ---------------------
 
 
We conclude by quoting Dr. Kocovic: "If the spirit of democracy and
tolerance, and correct information, dialogue, free discussion,
compromise, the will of the majority and the respect of the minority
rights prevail, we will not have to add any more victims to the
enormous list examined in this study. Nobody will be mutilated, there
will be no widows, no orphans, nor shall we witness again the
destruction of material and cultural wealth created laboriously by
untold generations."
 
 
 
 
(Prepared in August 1991)
-- 
************************************************************
ANYONE CAN HAVE AN OPINION ON ANYTHING,INSTANTANEOUSLY! BUT,
OPINIONS, AS SUCH, ARE GENERALLY WORTHLESS, UNLESS THEY ARE
WELL-GROUNDED ON SOUND EVIDENCE AND VALID ARGUMENTS! J.CONDIC,
E-MAIL:CONDIC@GW:WMICH.EDU;GEN.STUDIES,WMU,KALAMAZOO,MI 49008
*************************************************************