HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: neeri@iis.ethz.ch (Matthias Neeracher)
Newsgroups: fj.mail-lists.x-window
Subject: Re: GUIs Considered Harmful
Date: 3 Sep 92 21:05:12 GMT
Distribution: fj
Organization: Integrated Systems Laboratory, ETH, Zurich

Date: 3 Sep 92 16:10:39 GMT
Message-Id: <NEERI.92Sep3171039@iis.ethz.ch>
Newsgroups: alt.religion.computers,comp.windows.misc,comp.windows.news,comp.windows.x,comp.human-factors

In article <1992Sep1.233227.12778@sserve.cc.adfa.oz.au> ghm@ccadfa.cc.adfa.oz.au (Geoff Miller) writes:
>neeri@iis.ethz.ch (Matthias Neeracher) writes:
>
>>.... The Mac GUI doesn't get in the way of a
>>programmer wanting to do this. Two further examples of combined GUI/command
>>line programs are the MPW Shell (A development environment) and the A/UX shell
>>(a Un*x shell), which are command line oriented but allow the use to specify
>>command line options with a dialog instead.
>
>But these are things you have to buy, not a part of the Mac GUI as such.
>So what you're saying is that after buying a Mac (which is already 
>overpriced for what it provides), if I want an acceptable interface I
>have to buy _more_ software.

The Finder interface *is* acceptable to me most of the time. And before you
demand that Apple include a command line interface, please specify which one:
MS-DOS, sh, ksh, csh, zsh, tcsh, bash, vms or (what most likely would be
Apple's choice) another interface of their own.

>OK, someone working full-time on Mac software development may find it
>worth while to get the MPW Shell, but I question whether even the power
>users would.

I agree. I didn't want suggest that Power users get teh MPW Shell for doing
file operations, merely that the Mac GUI absolutely doesn't prevent CLIs from
being implemented.

>>The medium and high level user usually knows how to extend the user interface
>>to his/her liking. I don't wnat to offend anybody, but I think most of the
>>complaints about the fixed nature of the Mac UI are made by people who are
>>power users of other machines, but casual users of the Mac.
>
>But I thought that the great advantage of the Mac was supposed to be that
>it provided power to the casual user.

Yes. It also provides enuogh power to power users. What it does *not*
necessarily do is to provide pwoer for the class of users I described above,
but this can hardly be attributed to the GUI.

Matthias

-----
Matthias Neeracher                                      neeri@iis.ethz.ch
  "And that's why I am going to turn this world upside down, and make
   of it a fire so *bright* that someone real will notice"
                                -- Vernor Vinge, _Tatja Grimm's World_
From: victor@watson.ibm.com (Victor Miller)
Newsgroups: fj.mail-lists.x-window
Subject: XPutPixel and and XGetPixel and image layout
Date: 31 Aug 92 21:56:53 GMT
Distribution: fj
Organization: IBM, T.J. Watson Research Center

Date: 31 Aug 92 17:54:53 GMT
Message-Id: <VICTOR.92Aug31135453@terse4.watson.ibm.com>
Newsgroups: comp.windows.x

I know that the standard "safe" way of writing and reading pixels in
an image is to use XPutPixel and XGetPixel.  However, for speed one
would like to read and write units (bytes, double bytes, quad bytes
and whatever) directly for speed.  Is there a reliable way of
determining what the layout of the image is?  I realize that,
theoretically, it doesn't need to be layed out by scan lines, with
possible padding, in which case all bets are off.  Is there a good way
of determining whether or not this is the case (via some X calls), and
if the image is layed out in a "standard" way to determine to
parameters: a) how much space a pixel takes up, b) is there padding at
the end of a scan line, and anything else that might be relevant.

--
		Victor S. Miller
		Bitnet: VICTOR at WATSON
		Internet: victor@watson.ibm.com
		IBM, TJ Watson Research Center
		"Great artists steal; lesser artists borrow" Igor Stravinsky
From: sinan@mtesol.boeing.com (Sinan Karasu)
Newsgroups: fj.mail-lists.x-window
Subject: Re: GUIs Considered Harmful
Date: 24 Aug 92 22:55:10 GMT
Distribution: fj
Organization: Workstation Div., Supermicro Systems Group, Sony Corporation

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 92 14:39:30 PDT
Message-Id: <9208242139.AA17551@mtesol>


> From xpert-mailer@expo.lcs.mit.edu Mon Aug 24 14:22:35 1992
> From: stgprao@st.unocal.COM (Richard Ottolini)
> Organization: Unocal Corporation
> Subject: Re: GUIs Considered Harmful
> 
> In article <rpj.714619802@fir> rpj@fir.canberra.edu.au (Ross Johnson) writes:
> >
> >Is there a GUI (I probably really mean desktop window system) that
> >somehow embodies the notion of pipelines, ala Unix? The sort of thing
> >I'm thinking of would resemble a "paper spike" (or kebab) that I could
> >put icons onto and then execute as a pipeline. I could possibly also
> >save the spike under an icon for later use.
> 
> Not a general purpose one to my knowledge, but some special purpose applications.
> These include scientific visualization packages such AVS, Explorer, PowerVis
> and signal processing such as DISCO, ISX.
> Unfortunately, each vendor is adding their own method of layering pipes onto
> XWindows, so these packages are incompatible.
> I am surprised SUn never put this into SunWindows, one of the early GUIs.
> Lots have of people have imitated Sun since then, that is ignoring interclient
> communications.
> 
 Actually a publicly available program (not PD) called "khoros" from University of New Mexico
does this. It is intended for image processing ( about 110 MB including the sources and 
executables). The "pipe/window manager is called Cantata.
 Sun does have this capability and it is called ToolTalk. It is ( as far as I know) used by 
MentorGraphics Falcon, DECs PowerFrame and many many more C(ad)F(ramework)I(nitiative) 
compliant Frameworks....Not exactly piping but intertool communications...
Sinan
From: azhao@cs.arizona.edu (Qiang Alex Zhao)
Newsgroups: fj.mail-lists.x-window
Subject: Help -- set/get WM_DELETE_WINDOW
Date: 21 Aug 92 19:19:38 GMT
Distribution: fj
Organization: Computer Science Dept, Univ of Arizona, Tucson

Date: 18 Aug 92 07:09:56 GMT
Message-Id: <20689@optima.cs.arizona.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.windows.x


Hi,

I tried to use WM_DELETE_WINDOW, hoping to let my program know when a
window is going to be killed. But my code didn't work with twm (Sun,
X11R5), mwm, 4Dwm (SGI/Iris, X11R4).

Here's my code:

	....
	Atom delw;
	....
	delw = XInternAtom(display, "WM_DELETE_WINDOW", False);
	XSetWMProtocols(display, window, &delw, 1);
	....
	/* event-handling loop ... get event in variable ev */
	switch (ev.type) {
	....
	case ClientMessage:
		printf("Got it!\n");
		/* free/destroy everything and close display */
		break;
	....
	}
	....

My program just opened a window, "xprop" showed:

	WM_STATE(WM_STATE):
			window state: Normal
			icon window: 0x0
	WM_ICON_NAME(STRING) = "Test"
	WM_NAME(STRING) = "Test"
	WM_PROTOCOLS(ATOM): protocols  WM_DELETE_WINDOW
	....

Then I selected window menu (mwm) "Quit" or "Exit" -- nothing happened
to that window, and the program still ran happily.

What should I do? I saw some articles on this issue posted some weeks
ago -- could anybody send me copies of those articles, or even better,
a summery?

Thanks a lot.

________________________________________________________________
= Qiang Alex Zhao		   Computer Science Department
  azhao@cs.arizona.edu             University of Arizona
  (602) 621-2759                   Tucson, AZ 85721
From: brossard@siisun.epfl.ch (Alain Brossard EPFL-SIC/SII)
Newsgroups: fj.mail-lists.x-window
Subject: Re: need help accessing upper 128 font chars
Date: 27 Aug 92 13:17:05 GMT
Distribution: fj
Organization: Ecole Polytechnique Federale de Lausanne

Date: 27 Aug 92 07:36:51 GMT
Message-Id: <1992Aug27.093651@siisun.epfl.ch>
Newsgroups: comp.windows.x

In article <DVANDERR.92Aug26100257@hen3ry.oracle.com>, dvanderr@oracle.com (Danny Vanderryn) writes:
|> In article <1992Aug21.200203.3535@mercury.unt.edu> gene@ponder.csci.unt.edu (Gene De Lisa) writes:
|> 
|> 
|> 
|>    I need to create text with accented characters.
|>    [...]
|>    The only way I can get them is by using openwindows and
|>    typing at the command line using the sun4 compose key
|>    sequences. this wont work in emacs or vi -- just the
|>    command line. Ive tried to compare the XKeysymDB but
|>    I cant find where openwindows puts it.
|> 
|> openwindows has the patch in Xlib, where X doesn't.  you might try
|> running with your LD_LIBRARY_PATH pointing to your openwin libraries
|> first.  if that doesn't work, there may be something in R5 to do it.
|> i'm not quite familiar with R5 yet, but i know that R4 didn't have it.

     There is a patch on export which fixes the R5 server, check
for something like compose.tar.Z.

-- 

Alain Brossard, Ecole Polytechnique Federale de Lausanne,
	SIC/SII, EL-Ecublens, CH-1015 Lausanne, Suisse, +41 21 693-2211
brossard@sic.epfl.ch
From: pandey@mr.med.ge.com (Arvind Pandey 4-6847 MRCE)
Newsgroups: fj.mail-lists.x-window
Subject: context sensitive help packages
Date: 26 Aug 92 00:31:33 GMT
Distribution: fj
Organization: GE Medical Systems, Magnetic Resonance

Date: Tue, 25 Aug 92 16:17:26 GMT
Message-Id: <1992Aug25.161726.27281@mr.med.ge.com>
Newsgroups: comp.windows.x,comp.windows.x.motif


Is anybody aware of any context sensitive help packages that
work well in X/Motif environment ?

- arvind pandey

pandey@rainy.mr.med.ge.com

GE Medical Systems
From: scott@asd.com (Scott Barman)
Newsgroups: fj.mail-lists.x-window
Subject: X Error on busy cursor routine from FAQ
Date: 27 Aug 92 00:00:44 GMT
Distribution: fj
Organization: American Software Development Corp., West Babylon, NY

Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1992 22:43:24 GMT
Message-Id: <1992Aug25.224324.7877@asd.com>
Newsgroups: comp.windows.x

I read the FAQ.  I wanted a busy cursor and have input blocked, so I
wrote a function based on what I found in FAQ #122.  In fact, I cut and
pasted the code from one xterm to another one running an editor (with
only minor editing).  However, when I run the code I get the following
error:

X Error of failed request:  BadWindow (invalid Window parameter)
  Major opcode of failed request:  1 (X_CreateWindow)
  Minor opcode of failed request:  0
  Resource id in failed request:  0x0
  Serial number of failed request:  1764
  Current serial number in output stream:  1766

(Environment: X11R4pl18, Motif 1.1.5, SunOS 4.1.1, Xsun server and mwm)

The function (included below), is called from an XmNactivateCallback for
a Motif pushButton widget.  The callback works as follows:

	busyCursor(topLevel, 1);	/* turn on busy cursor */
	set SIGCHLD to be caught by a function that will turn busyCursor off;
	fork();
	if the child process
		close all fds > 2;
		exec desired program
	return;

The exec (which is really an execl) works because the command starts to
execute.  On return from the function, the above error message prints
out.

---> begin busyCursor function
#include <X11/Intrinsic.h>
#include <X11/cursorfont.h>

static Window   busyWindow = NULL;

void busyCursor(topLevel, disposition)
	Widget	topLevel;
{
	unsigned long	valuemask;
	XSetWindowAttributes	attributes;
	Display *display = XtDisplay(topLevel);

	/* initialize on first time */
	if (!busyWindow) {
		/* ignore device events while the busy cursor is displayed */
		valuemask = CWDontPropagate | CWCursor;
		attributes.do_not_propagate_mask = (KeyPressMask |
			KeyReleaseMask | ButtonPressMask | ButtonReleaseMask |
			PointerMotionMask);
		attributes.cursor = XCreateFontCursor(display, XC_watch);
		/* the window will be as big as the display screen and
		 * clipped by its own parent window, so we never have to
		 * worry about resizing.
		 */
		busyWindow = XCreateWindow(display, XtWindow(topLevel), 0, 0,
			65535, 65535, (unsigned int)0, CopyFromParent,
			InputOnly, CopyFromParent, valuemask, &attributes);
	}

	/* deal with  what the caller wants */
	if (disposition) {
		XMapWindow(display, busyWindow);
		XRaiseWindow(display, busyWindow);
	} else
		XUnmapWindow(display, busyWindow);
}
---> end busyCursor function

It "should" workd.  I RTFM and RTFAQ to try to figure out why the above
does not work, but I can't figure out anything.

THANKS!!
-- 
scott barman			| <This space intentionally left blank>
scott@asd.com			|
 (I can barely speak for myself, you expect me to speak for my employer??)
From: frite@vlsi.polymtl.ca), (Michel Besner)
Newsgroups: fj.mail-lists.x-window
Subject: Getting Paned Window to tile horizontaly ...
Date: 29 Aug 92 11:06:41 GMT
Distribution: fj
Organization: Ecole Polytechnique de Montreal, lab. INFO

Date: 27 Aug 92 17:06:00 GMT
Message-Id: <1992Aug27.170600.8600@vlsi.polymtl.ca>
Newsgroups: comp.windows.x



	Hi there !

		Is it possible to get PanedWindow to lay out children
in a HORIZONTALY tiled format ? I need two frames side by side and
I want to allow the user to resize the two frames with a PanedWindow
or anything similar to it.

	Any suggestions is appreciated :) :)


				Michel Besner, eng.
				Sacred Heart Hospital 
				research center
				Montreal
				mbesner@iris1.metal.polymtl.ca



	"life is a big bowl of Jell-O :) :) ! "
From: kaleb@thyme.jpl.nasa.gov (Kaleb Keithley)
Newsgroups: fj.mail-lists.x-window
Subject: Re: Converting Window ID to Widget
Date: 1 Sep 92 20:58:06 GMT
Distribution: fj
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, CA

Date: 1 Sep 92 16:08:31 GMT
Message-Id: <1992Sep1.160831.5893@thyme.jpl.nasa.gov>
Newsgroups: comp.windows.x

In article <17v3nvINNl0v@fbi-news.Informatik.Uni-Dortmund.DE> klute@tommy.informatik.uni-dortmund.de (Rainer Klute) writes:
>In article <1992Aug31.212218.11573@sparky.imd.sterling.com>,
>dave@IMD.Sterling.COM (Dave Krejci) writes:
>|> My problem is that I haven't been able to find
>|> a way to convert a window ID into a toplevel widget name.
>
>XtWindowToWidget()
>

I thought someone might suggest this.  The problem is, Widget IDs returned 
from XtWindowToWidget() are only valid within the context of the same client.

Editres, in R5 already does what Dave wants.

-- 

Kaleb Keithley                          kaleb@thyme.jpl.nasa.gov

Not authorized, in any way, shape, or form, to speak for anyone.
From: frite@vlsi.polymtl.ca), (Michel Besner)
Newsgroups: fj.mail-lists.x-window
Subject: Getting Paned Window to tile horizontaly ...
Date: 29 Aug 92 08:11:00 GMT
Distribution: fj
Organization: Ecole Polytechnique de Montreal, lab. INFO

Date: 27 Aug 92 17:06:00 GMT
Message-Id: <1992Aug27.170600.8600@vlsi.polymtl.ca>
Newsgroups: comp.windows.x



	Hi there !

		Is it possible to get PanedWindow to lay out children
in a HORIZONTALY tiled format ? I need two frames side by side and
I want to allow the user to resize the two frames with a PanedWindow
or anything similar to it.

	Any suggestions is appreciated :) :)


				Michel Besner, eng.
				Sacred Heart Hospital 
				research center
				Montreal
				mbesner@iris1.metal.polymtl.ca



	"life is a big bowl of Jell-O :) :) ! "
From: dburke@donald.wichitaks.ncr.com (Doug Burke)
Newsgroups: fj.mail-lists.x-window
Subject: X windows reference books
Date: 29 Aug 92 05:56:49 GMT
Distribution: fj
Organization: NCR Corporation Wichita, KS

Date: 28 Aug 92 12:26:40 GMT
Message-Id: <39431@donald.WichitaKS.NCR.COM>
Newsgroups: comp.windows.x


	I'm relatively new to X windows so I'm looking for a good reference
	book on the subject.  I'm not looking to program with X windows yet,
	I'm just looking for some help in getting my windows and X applications
	to look the way I want (through the .Xdefaults, etc. files).

	Would I need a different reference book depending on what type of
	window manager I'm running or would something general work?  We 
	have not settled on either openlook, motif, or the Solbourne window
	manager yet.

	Finally, do you know of any courses you could recommend to someone
	new to X--either on video tape or one I could attend in person?

							Thanks,
							Doug
-- 

                                                Doug Burke
                                        email:  doug.burke@WichitaKS.NCR.COM
                                        phone:  316-636-8762
From: gfong@bellahs.com (Gary Fong RD)
Newsgroups: fj.mail-lists.x-window
Subject: Help needed with xterm and logging
Date: 2 Sep 92 03:44:24 GMT
Distribution: fj
Organization: Bell Atlantic Healthcare Systems

Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 23:08:31 GMT
Message-Id: <1992Sep1.230831.1243@bellahs.com>
Newsgroups: comp.windows.x

Xtermidians

Machine: Suns (IPC and Sparc2)
OS: 4.1.2
X: MIT X11R5p16

I'm having problems logging the output of an xterm session.  I've tried mostly
every possible logging switches and resources combination but to no avail.

It is currently installed like so:
  /usr/bin/X11 (linked)-> $(DESTDIR)/usr/bin/X11
  It has these permissions and ownership
     -r-sr-xr-w  1 bin  bin 204800 ...

The weirdness occurs when the logging works when I run xterm from the source,
mit/clients/xterm/xterm.  It has these permisions and ownership:
   -rwxr-xr-x  1 gfong    rd   204800 (I built it)

It seems to me that either the permissions or the ownership has something to
do with the logging facility.  Could somebody please enlighten me as to what's
going on.

BTW, to make sure I'm using MIT's library, and not openwin's, LD_LIBRARY_PATH
has /usr/lib/X11 (another link to $DESTDIR/usr/lib) at the front.

Gary Fong
gfong@bellahs.com
Bell Atlantic Healthcare Systems
From: mjk@hoot.esd.sgi.com (Mark Kilgard)
Newsgroups: fj.mail-lists.x-window
Subject: Re: What's new in R6?
Date: 28 Aug 92 12:04:10 GMT
Distribution: fj
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc.

Date: 28 Aug 92 04:46:15 GMT
Message-Id: <1992Aug28.044615.8892@odin.corp.sgi.com>
Newsgroups: comp.windows.x

In article <1992Aug27.232636.7983@nosc.mil>, worthen@nosc.mil (Richard H. Worthen) writes:
|> 
|> What will be in X11R6? When will it be available?

I heard either today or tomorrow.

|> Will code written for R5 run on R6?

No, it has to all be converted to C++ to run under R6.

|> I've heard talk about a "multi-media" flavor for X. Is this true? 
|> If so, will it be a part of R6? X12? 

What do you mean just "talk of multi-media" for R6?
With the XBell call, you can add audio to your clients
today!

|> What is the status of the multi-threaded extension?

Work on the multi-threaded "extension" is all tied
up right now.

|> What plans (if any) are there for X12?

This is just a rumor but I heard they are building a
SoftPC extension that allows clients to download DOS
executables to the X server for it to run.  There is
even some talk of actually having clients download themselves
into the server.

For client programmers, the X resource mechanism is being
extended so the entire client can be nothing but an app-defaults
file.  A lot of users were complaing that X resources
"just weren't configurable enough."

|> thanks in advance,

No problem.

I'm not sure if all of this is true but if enough people
repeat it, it will seem like it is true.

- Mark Kilgard
From: MCOG@chvm1.vnet.ibm.com ("Michael A. Coggins")
Newsgroups: fj.mail-lists.x-window
Subject: Questions on DEC VMS DECterm configuration
Date: 21 Aug 92 22:56:30 GMT
Distribution: fj
Organization: Workstation Div., Supermicro Systems Group, Sony Corporation

Message-Id: <9208201138.AA05558@expo.lcs.mit.edu>
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 92 13:23:43 CET

I have the fluffy books describing the VMS DECterm, but it
spends a lot of time telling me how to work the mouse, and
to click on buttons.

What I really need to know is:

1) Which fonts does it use/require/want?  How would I find this info?
2) Can it use a resource file like a normal unix based xterm?
3) It seems to have hard-coded that <ctrl><backslash> will map to
   an X key sequence "Ctrl <Key> backslash", but the backslash on
   the keyboard I am working with has the backslash on a different
   modifier.  This means I have to type <ctrl><alt gr>backslash,
   and the DECterm doesn't recognize that this should be ctrl backslash.
   Can I reconfigure the DECterm to find my backslash?
4) Is there any detailed documentation on the DECterm in a VMS
   environment?

Any email help would be greatly appreciated, or a pointer to a better
place to look.  Please pardon my ignorance of VMS.  Thanks,
--
Mickey Coggins  mcog@chvm1.vnet.ibm.com
                +41-1-436-7274 or +41-1-436-8525 (fax)
                Hohlstrasse 560, CH-8048 Zurich, Switzerland
From: worthen@nosc.mil (Richard H. Worthen)
Newsgroups: fj.mail-lists.x-window
Subject: What's new in R6?
Date: 28 Aug 92 09:12:20 GMT
Distribution: fj
Organization: Naval Ocean Systems Center, San Diego, CA

Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 23:26:36 GMT
Message-Id: <1992Aug27.232636.7983@nosc.mil>
Newsgroups: comp.windows.x


What will be in X11R6? When will it be available?

Will code written for R5 run on R6?

I've heard talk about a "multi-media" flavor for X. Is this true? 
If so, will it be a part of R6? X12? 

Is VEX being resurected? If so, details please.

What is the status of the multi-threaded extension?

What plans (if any) are there for X12?

thanks in advance,

Rick Worthen, NRaD, Code 414, 619-553-3593
From: deveau@oceanroutes.ns.ca ("Terry J. Deveau")
Newsgroups: fj.mail-lists.x-window
Subject: Re: GUIs Considered Harmful
Date: 25 Aug 92 19:03:16 GMT
Distribution: fj
Organization: Oceanroutes Canada Inc.

Message-Id: <9208251631.AA17073@expo.lcs.mit.edu>
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 92 13:31:02 ADT
Phone: (902) 468-3007, FAX: (902) 468-3009
Mailer: Elm [revision: 64.9]

Peter da Silva writes: 
> 
> johnm@cajal.uoregon.edu (John Martin) writes:
> > For kicks sometime, take a person who is used to a CLI and put them on a Mac.
> > I guarantee that they will not be able to do *anything* useful until they have
> > either read the manual or experimented a lot.
> 
> To put it bluntly, this is complete balderdash. Take me, for example. I'd been
> using CLI based systems for 10 years when the Xerox Star office system came
> out, and I was able to use it within minutes. GOOD GUIs *are* easier to use.
> BAD GUIs suck dirty canal water.
> 
> The Mac GUI is a moderately good one. It used to be quite good (though not up
> to the quality of the Star), but it's grown a *lot* of chrome in the past 6 or
> so years.

Being a *power* CLI user, I found it very frustrating initially
learning the Mac.  There are so many *tricks* that let you do things
faster and slicker than the *obvious* click-em-n-drag-em-one-at-a-time
method, but the only way to find out about them was via brain dump
from a Mac expert (boring for him, humiliating for me :).

The manuals seemed to go to great lengths on things like how to
tell a mouse from a monitor and what to do when a button saying
*push me* appears, but nothing at all on the *good stuff*.  Or so
it seemed from a *quick read* :).

Apple was claiming to take power away from the high-priests in
the computer center and give it to the user, but I was left with
the taste of watered-down wine and the sense that a new priest-hood
was springing up (and I wasn't in it :( ).

But after all, any complex system *has* to be learned.  NEWS, Motif, and
MS-Windows were much easier to learn after having semi-mastered the
Mac.  The main problem I have with GUI's now is the subtle differences 
between those four (I've never tried OpenWindows). ... Terry