HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: fcrary@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (Frank Crary)
Subject: Re: A thought on the comming gun bans
Keywords: To purchase, or not to purchase....
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 03:21:13 GMT

In article <1992Nov10.35227.12266@ms.uky.edu> miles@ms.uky.edu (Stephen D. Grant) writes:
>>Mostly becuase of the Fifth Amendment to our Constitution: "...[no 
>>person shall] be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without
>>due process of law; nor shall private priperty be taken for public
>>use without just compensation." The current Supreme Court reasonably

> Yea, tell that to the victims of the DEA's confiscation policy. I believe
>it has to do wit something called the "RICO Act" ??? (is that right?).

That is quite different from a general ban or confiscation: The RICO
statutes apply _only_ to property used (or suspected of being 
used) to commit some other crime (e.g. if the police think you
are smuggling drugs and confiscate your car). I suppose RICO 
could be applied to a case where the police siezed a gun, on the
suspician it was used during a crime, but not if the government
simply banned them. (By the way, I don't approve with the RICO 
statutes or the Court's acceptance of them. However, the Court
seems to make a distinction between them, and general confiscations.)

                                      Frank Crary
                                      CU Boulder


Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: jkapson@ad-29.Naitc.Com (John Kapson)
Subject: Re: 2nd Ammendment
Organization: AC Nielsen Co., Bannockburn IL
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 92 17:17:55 GMT

In article <1992Nov6.170211.18927@cbfsb.cb.att.com> colten@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (marc.colten) writes:
>> 
>> *Sigh*, if the folks in the restaurant had been able to carry
>> concealed, then most probably the incident in Killeen would never
>> have been on the national news in the first place. The unreasonable
>> restriction of their RKBA kept them from defending themselves
>> and others in this situation. This situation was more of
>> a defeat for the HCI crowd than the RKBA crowd if you think about
>> it a bit. I *know* there are a lot more folks in this forum who can/will
>> probably jump on this assertion of yours with additional
>> evidence/facts relating to that case. All of this has been rehashed
>> here in tpg *numerous* times.
>> 
>
>In the first place who said they couldn't "carry concealed" 

The Killeen TX laws.

>So let's look at Killeen, again. There are no laws restricting the
>right of honest, law-abiding citizens to buy weapons.  Or on anyone
>else since it is in infringement of our rights to even ask us who
>we are, or make us wait while they see if the id we have is real.
>So maybe 50% of the people in the restaurant in Killeen were sitting
>there comfortably with .38's on them.  And the guy walks in with
>a semi-automatic rifle.  Do you agree that a nut would be more likely to
>do just that - go for the big weapon.

A nut?  Sure.  Anybody with half a clue as to the difficulties of
maneuvering a nice, big rifle around in a crowded, close-quarters
combat situation? I doubt it.

> So what would the people do -
>make it routine to carry semi-automatic's and then the guy walks in
>with a fully automatic Uzi or Mac-10.

And gets shot dead by someone with a Derringer.

John Kapson   NRA ILA

Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: jgd@dixie.com (John De Armond)
Subject: Clinton-proofing yourself (was Re: A thought on the comming gun bans)
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 92 05:33:42 GMT
Organization: Dixie Communications Public Access.  The Mouth of the South.
Keywords: To purchase, or not to purchase....
Distribution: usa

sjo@cci632.cci.com (Steve Owens) writes:

>>The government gives you money for newly banned firearms?!?!
>>Speaking as a Canadian where several score firearms and all
>>"variants thereof" were just banned, driving several 10s of millions
>>dollars in firearms into the black market, why do you think
>>a Clinton gov't would compensate you?

>	That's why I mentioned the fact that I could be out up to the
>full $700.  I'm not sure I'd get any compensation.

Couple of comments.

First off, we'd better get used to the thought of being made felons.
This will be little different than what the government did 20 years
ago with the 55 mph speed limit except the stakes are higher.

If you believe that defending yourself against agressors, whether 
under color of law or not, then you will want to make provisions for
securing your weapons against seizure.  I think the survivalists of
the 70s and 80s were simply ahead of their time.  We must learn 
to think like guerillas and learn for past experience.

Though a $700 H-BAR is a nice gun to have, it is not necessary for
self-defence.  For example, very nice Chinese SKS evil baby killing
assault rifles are available complete with bayonet for as little
as $100.  There's a place called "The Gun Store Inc." here in
Atlanta (404 451 4239) selling this weapon for exactly that price.
It is a decently accurate, super rugged, high capacity rifle.
At this price, you can afford to buy several.  It is, of course, desirable
to buy your self defence weapons from private individuals so there is
no paperwork but scattering the purchases out across several stores makes
tracing them all very difficult.

I'd advise taking at least one of these weapons, heavily grease it,
place it and a few hundred rounds in a length of 6" CPVC pipe along
with a bag of dessicant and bury it somewhere near your house.  If 
worst comes to worst, you can rearm yourself.  If you're concerned that
someone (police or otherwise) might metal detect the weapon, it is 
easy enough to seed the ground with those little metal disks used by 
roofers under their nails.  These things are galvanized so they will
last forever.

Under the theory that having a sub-optimal weapon is better than no 
weapon at all, I'd suggest anyone concerned use the remaining two
months of freedom to acquire their arsenals and adequately secure them.

John

-- 
John De Armond, WD4OQC               |Interested in high performance mobility?  
Performance Engineering Magazine (TM) |
Marietta, Ga                         |Interested in high tech and computers? 
jgd@dixie.com                        |Write me about PE Magazine
Need Usenet public Access in Atlanta?  Write Me for info on Dixie.com.
From: glngar01@uctvax.uct.ac.za
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
Subject: Request (Hi Standard Mod. 10 )
Date: 13 Nov 92 16:28:44 GMT
Organization: University of Cape Town

I have 2 requests:

1:My VAX(!!!) does not get rec.guns. Where can I get the groups posts?

2:I would like to hear from Hi Standard Mod. 10 owners (thats the 5-shot
semi-auto bullpup shotgun they produced for the police way back when) I can get
one for the equivalent of $500.

Thanx
_______________________________________________________________________________
Gary Glen-Young     'The token South African'   
E-mail:glngar01@uctvax.uct.ac.za
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 God made men BIG & small, then Samuel Colt made them all equal...
 Now Gaston Glock has made some of us more equal than others.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: jstrait@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (strait jeffrey c)
Subject: Re: A thought on the comming gun bans
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 23:36:23 GMT
Keywords: To purchase, or not to purchase....

urbin@interlan.interlan.com (Mark Urbin) writes:
>   Where the people in New York City compensated for the legally registered 
>rifles that were declared illegal and then collected by the Police?

No .
-- 
Jeff Strait                  |  jstrait@uiuc.edu
Coordinated Science Lab      |  or strait@uicsl.csl.uiuc.edu 
1308 West Main Street        |  (217) 333-6444
Urbana, IL 61801             |
From: cdt@sw.stratus.com (C. D. Tavares)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
Subject: Re: 2nd Ammendment
Date: 10 Nov 92 22:15:56 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Stratus Computer, Inc.
NNTP-Posting-Host: rocket.sw.stratus.com

Jim Cox:  Sorry to post this, but mail to you bounced twice.

> >So maybe 50% of the people in the restaurant in Killeen were sitting
> >there comfortably with .38's on them.

> Not true again. 0 as in (zero) were armed.

> > And the guy walks in with a semi-automatic rifle.

> Not true again.  I think that a pattern is developing - one of lies.

> >marc colten

> I deleted a bunch of crap out of Marc's message, there were more lies
> is the deleted part also.

> Facts do not appear to be high on your list do they Marc?

He was stating a hypothetical scenario.  Yes, he was stating it in the
present tense, which confused you.  His point was, "Say half the customers
had been armed -- then Hennard would have walked in with a tommy gun!"
-- 

cdt@pdp.sw.stratus.com      --If you believe that I speak for my company,
OR cdt@vos.stratus.com        write today for my special Investors' Packet...
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: uk09365@nx12.mik.uky.edu (robert i kesten)
Subject: Re: Media Survey
Organization: University Of Kentucky, Dept. of Math Sciences
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 02:48:13 GMT
Distribution: usa

In article <1992Nov5.034307.16991@guinness.idbsu.edu> betz@gozer.idbsu.edu  
(Andrew Betz) writes:
> In article <1d9kvlINN1ga@life.ai.mit.edu> MIT Presidential Information  
Service <Surveys@campaign92.org> writes:
> >The Presidential Campaign Information Service is a non-partisan 
> >service operated at M.I.T to make campaign information available,
> >facilitate electronic discussion of the issues, and to study the 
> >use of electronic mail as a component of a presidential campaign.
> >
> is it just me, or does anybody else find the fact that these
> folks ignored the libertarians ironic? 

Now...Drew... Marrou is an MIT graduate.  It would show
bias to list the LP  ;-)

Robert K.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: joel@upchrch.UUCP (Joel Upchurch  )
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
Subject: Re: What gun bans might come about under Clinton?
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 92 02:59:22 EST
Organization: Upchurch Computer Consulting, Orlando FL

joan@koala.berkeley.edu () writes:

> 	Any information on the other provisions of the Brady Bill
> versions besides the waiting period?  For instance, the provision
> that sends the paperwork to your local police chief -- is this
> superceded in states with a longer waiting period?

We won't really know anything about the Brady Bill until we see
what version is introduced next year. The Brady Bill mutates
rapidly like the influenza virus. We don't know exactly what
it will look like, only that it will make us sick. It is quite
possible that the version introduced next year will differ from
any of the versions we saw this year and that the version
introduced in the House and the Senate will differ from each
other.

(If your mail bounces use the address below.)
Joel Upchurch/Upchurch Computer Consulting/718 Galsworthy/Orlando, FL 32809
joel@peora.ccur.com {uiucuxc,hoptoad,petsd,ucf-cs}!peora!joel (407) 859-0982
Xref: sparky talk.politics.guns:23834 soc.culture.japan:10405
From: ra01+@andrew.cmu.edu (Rikiya Asano)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns,soc.culture.japan
Subject: Re: Yoshi Hattori / UPI
Date: 9 Nov 92 19:03:50 GMT
Article-I.D.: andrew.4ezo_qO00iV0M_3BpJ
	<BxGt5C.8KA@world.std.com>
Organization: Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA

So what are we going to do now,  Mr. Richmond, 

     
                          Play tit for tat. Your an evil individual. You
are the racist. Using this woman tradgety just to show that a "Japanese
National" could rape. We already know this. Is this your revenge. If
your sources are not sure why are you posting this bullshit. You are an
Evil in individual Japanese do have to be protected from your(people
with your personality)kind. 

I had not doubt that one of you were wait for something like this, to
save face for your boy.
From: joel@upchrch.UUCP (Joel Upchurch  )
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
Subject: Re: Registering "Assault Keys"
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 92 03:39:42 EST
Organization: Upchurch Computer Consulting, Orlando FL

andy@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (Andy Freeman) writes:

> Note that a govt can't use helicopter gunships with impunity on its
> own territory and in its own cities, no matter what the rabble is
> doing.  A govt requires some base of support, and can't destroy it to
> win a revolution.

Be sure to pass this information along to the Kurds, I'm sure they'll
be glad to hear it. What I assume you mean is that they can't use
helicopter gunships unless their opposition is in a different area
than their supporters. It's when their all mixed up together that it
gets tricky. Also government control of information is very
important. It is hard for people to be outraged about something they
never learn about.

(If your mail bounces use the address below.)
Joel Upchurch/Upchurch Computer Consulting/718 Galsworthy/Orlando, FL 32809
joel@peora.ccur.com {uiucuxc,hoptoad,petsd,ucf-cs}!peora!joel (407) 859-0982
From: dlo@druwa.ATT.COM (OlsonDL)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
Subject: Re: Gun control laws proposed in Colorado
Date: 10 Nov 92 15:29:10 GMT
Distribution: talk

In article <22271@drutx.ATT.COM>, dlo@druwa.ATT.COM (OlsonDL) writes:
} There were some recent tragedies here in Colorado.  In separate incidents,
} two teenagers and a state trooper were shot and killed.
} 
} As a result, State Senator Regis Groff and a few others are pushing for
} state wide gun control laws -- specifically a waiting period on handguns
} and a ban on so-called "assault weapons".

I neglected to mention some information.  Sen. Groff said, "I know our
forefathers had no knowledge of, or in their wildest dreams ever dreamt
that there would be such a thing as an AK-47."  You guessed it, in none
of these shootings was anything like an AK-47 even used.

} Governor Roy Romer said, "I
} feel we need something like the Brady Bill in WHATEVER FORM IT TAKES"
} [emphasis mine -- dlo].

The alledged killers were already underage, so a waiting period would not
have helped matters, since it was already illegal for them to purchase
these weapons in the first place.
--
David Olson   dlo@druwa.ATT.COM
"Keep in mind that I am speaking from Cambridge Massachusetts, which is
 about as far out as you can get."  Robert Reich, economic advisor to
 Bill Clinton, on "This Week with David Brinkley" 11/08/92
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: chrisb@natinst.com (Chris Bartz)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
Subject: Re: What gun bans might come about under Clinton?
Date: 10 Nov 1992 10:42:42 -0600
Organization: National Instruments, Austin, TX
NNTP-Posting-Host: eagle.natinst.com

In article <40801@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> ph600fcy@sdcc14.ucsd.edu (Matthew Harrington) writes:
>People in the newsgroup are talking about the upcoming gun bans.  
>Has Clinton outright said that he supports bans of "assault" rifles
>and semi-autos?

Yes.  In his book _Putting_People_First_ he says that he support the
Brady bill and a ban on "semi-automatic assualt weapons".


>  How realistic and soon are the gun ban threats?

This is the $64,000 question.  I think the only hope is that Clinton
may consider these things low priority and won't get around to them
-- 
-chris bartz (chrisb@natinst.com)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: yarvin@cs.yale.edu (Norman Yarvin)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
Subject: Re: Registering "Assault Keys"
Date: 11 Nov 1992 23:29:05 -0500
Organization: Yale Computer Science Department
NNTP-Posting-Host: cathy.na.cs.yale.edu

starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Tim Starr) writes:
>yarvin@cs.yale.edu (Norman Yarvin) writes:
>}Right.  They are fictional.  In real life, the cops have so many methods for
>}dealing with such a situation that it isn't even funny.  In either of these
>}two movies, did the cops call for backup, and did twenty cars arrive as would
>}happen in reality?  Did one of the cars show up with a teargas grenade
>}launcher, and another three cars with the SWAT team?  I think not.
>
>Plausible was the operative word.  In "Harry's War," the called in the
>National Guard, who had tanks.  In "Stranger On My Land," they formed a
>posse out of local government officials were deputized by a Federal Marshall.
>Calling in the army was ruled out for reasons of bad publicity, also a major
>factor in the "Harry's War" scenario.

Tanks?!?

I suppose a tank operator _could_ screw up so badly that he would lose to a
man hiding in a house, or in some natural fortification.  I mean, there are
incorrect ways to use tanks.  In a movie, it may be the military screws up.
This is not to be relied upon by anybody in the real world.

As for calling in the army: if someone successfully stood off the local
police (in, perhaps, a small community with few cops) then he _would_ be
deemed a threat, and other authorities would be called in.  The cops can
surround a house indefinitely.  Publicity would be a secondary consideration.

>That's not what I proposed.  What if all the witnesses had been armed and
>asked the cops to lighten up?

If an interfering person didn't behave as if he would use his weapons, it
would be no different from him being unarmed.  If he did behave as if he
would use his weapons, the cops would take it as a threat.  So there would
be no advantage to being armed.

Weapons are not just talismans; the only way they are useful is if there is
the will to use them.  I don't know about you, but killing a cop to stop a
beating is certainly not something I would have the will to do.

And as for an unarmed person trying to interfere with the beating of Larry
King...  there is a reason why John DeArmond calls the cops 'pigs'.  They
generally take any sort of challenge to their authority as a personal insult.
It is remotely possible that a bystander, acting with extreme politeness,
could have talked the cops into stopping.  But he would have to be lucky.

>  I submit that it's a bit difficult for cops
>to take on an entire neighborhood over a relatively minor number of swings
>of a baton.

I don't think the timing would have permitted the entire neighborhood to be
mobilized.  I have a very vague memory that the beating took 90 seconds,
which would not suffice to summon people otherwise occupied.

--
Norman Yarvin						yarvin@cs.yale.edu
 "Riot, n.  A popular entertainment given to the military by innocent
  bystanders." -- Ambrose Bierce, _The Devil's Dictionary_
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: jstrait@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (strait jeffrey c)
Subject: Damage
Summary: Damage
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 20:12:03 GMT

The election results seem to indicate:

US Senate        A,B    D,F    C or not known
		 15     14        6

		 (new seats)

US House        192     145       97

According to the published GOA rating...
-- 
------------------------------------------------------------   
Jeff Strait                  |  jstrait@uiuc.edu
Coordinated Science Lab      |  (217) 333-6444
Univ. of Illinois            |
From: dlo@druwa.ATT.COM (OlsonDL)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
Subject: Re: Damage Assessment after Comrade Clinton's victory?
Date: 10 Nov 92 17:59:03 GMT



} does neal knox have a damage assessment out yet?  things appear to
} be pretty bleak on the national scene: i'm aware of victories by
} braun, boxer, and feinstein (triple ugh).  let me give some good
} news: idaho just elected republican dirk kempthorne ('A' or 'B'
} rating) adding oomph to idaho's other pro-gun senator, craig.
} we also just reelected the democrat 'A' (and nra-endorsed) candidate
} larry larocco for the house.  the other representative was mike crapo
} (pronounced cray-pough, not crap-oh) and i'm pretty sure he was a
} pro-gunner.

Well, although Colorado helped elect Clinton, it also elected a pro-gun
Democrat (Ben Nighthorse Campbell) to the US Senate.
--
David Olson   dlo@druwa.ATT.COM
"Keep in mind that I am speaking from Cambridge Massachusetts, which is
 about as far out as you can get."  Robert Reich, economic advisor to
 Bill Clinton, on "This Week with David Brinkley" 11/08/92
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: markl@dvorak.amd.com (Mark Luedtke)
Subject: Re: You can't fast forward through the next four years
Organization: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc.; Austin, Texas
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 92 17:52:50 GMT

In article <1992Nov5.01638.15165@ms.uky.edu> miles@ms.uky.edu (Stephen D. Grant) writes:
>Well Libertarian voters, I haven't heard much about your "message" sent
>to Congress. Can anybody help me? Show me how your vote helped the RKBA cause.
>right...

Since Bush won Texas, it sure didn't hurt that I voted Libertarian.  Whether
it helped or not, we'll have to wait and see.
-- 

Mark Luedtke    markl@dvorak.amd.com

This was typed by an infinite number of monkeys.
From: kaldis@romulus.rutgers.edu (Theodore A. Kaldis)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
Subject: Re: Fundamentalist Nightmare
Date: 6 Nov 92 03:50:25 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

In article <viking.720772260@vincent1.iastate.edu> viking@iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson) writes:

> Hey, I've a swimming pool I'll sell ya cheap!

If he wants to go ice skating.
-- 
The views expressed herein are my   ||  Theodore A. Kaldis
my own only.  Do you seriously      ||  kaldis@remus.rutgers.edu
believe that a major university as  ||  {...}!rutgers!remus.rutgers.edu!kaldis
this would hold such views???       ||
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: jgd@dixie.com (John De Armond)
Subject: Re: Need Better NRA Ads NOW !
Date: Thu, 05 Nov 92 18:14:19 GMT
Organization: Dixie Communications Public Access.  The Mouth of the South.

hollombe@polymath.tti.com (The Polymath) writes:

>I am an NRA firearms instructor.  The NRA does not teach police/combat
>weapons techniques to civilians, period.

Well Jerry, I'm an NRA firearms instructor too and unless you deviate from
the NRA course materials, in your personal protection course, you DO teach 
the concepts of retreating to a safe area such as a bedroom, the keeping of
appropriate weapons, their proper use, the proper use of cover and so on.

I chose a bedroom environment EXACTLY because it is the most typical
"safe room".

>The above scenario is completely unrealistic in any case and would almost
>certainly result in the deaths of the homeowner and his family.  The kind
>of attitudes such fantasies project cost gun owners more votes than a
>thousand positive ads could ever compensate for.

Why would it almost surely result in the death of the homeowner?  Do you
think there is some magic that makes a pig an expert shot capable of 
killing anything in his path?  If the homeowner performs according to his
NRA training, he will be behind cover, rifle pointed at the door.
In the immediate aftermath of having his door broken in, he will fire on the 
first unidentified thing that enters the room.  Since the Mad Dog brigade
here in atlanta typically storms with 6 stormtroupers or so, the odds of
a favorable outcome for the homeowner (defined as surviving the assault 
and being able to place a couple of notches on his pigslayer) is certainly
good.

As to costing NRA support, I suggest not.   This era of a formal Drug
War on the Constitution is making even people of my parent's generation
refer to the pigs as pigs.  More and more people are losing the 
imaginary "Joe Friday" image of cops and are beginning to realize that
in most places outside the inner city, the pigs are the single greatest
threat to personal wellbeing going.

John

-- 
John De Armond, WD4OQC               |Interested in high performance mobility?  
Performance Engineering Magazine (TM) |
Marietta, Ga                         |Interested in high tech and computers? 
jgd@dixie.com                        |Write me about PE Magazine
Need Usenet public Access in Atlanta?  Write Me for info on Dixie.com.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns