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Date:         Sat, 19 Dec 1992 10:57:07 CDT
From:         Ian Williams <iwilliam@AU.ORACLE.COM>
Subject:      Re: christmas - not christs birth
              Tondering" at Dec 18, 92 8:39 am

>
>Ian Williams writes:
>> Lets all remember that December 25 is basically a pagan celebration
>> and most probably Christ was not born on this date.
>
>You are probably right. Some people say that it is unlikely that
>shepherds would be lying in the fields at night during winter,
>which even in the Middle East can be quite cold.
>
>> It is more probable
>> that it is somewhere between July and October.
>
>What do you base that on?
>
Based on the fact that I have heard people vehemently tell me it is
July, and others that its more like October... Not being one to argue! (ha!)
I say sometime between July and October!

>Yours in Christ,
>Claus Tondering



---------------------+-------------+-----------------------------------------
Ian Williams         |    _--_|\   |      Internet: iwilliam@au.oracle.com
Oracle Systems       |   /      \  |      Phone   : +61 8 239 3900
Adelaide, Australia  |   \_.--*_/  |
                     |         v   |
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Date:         Fri, 11 Dec 1992 15:57:11 EDT
From:         Leo W <Leo_W@QM.CIRCA.UFL.EDU>
Subject:      Re>Romans 6:5...

Theresa wrote:
"I sometimes listen to a pastor, or friend read John 15:13, and wonder,
"Geez, could *I* REALLY give my life for a best friend, or for even
a family member...if I knew that they were in danger???" I've had some
circumstances and situations come my way in the last year, that would
merit that, possibly...but I'm still not sure I'd do it.  Only Jesus
could have taken the load of Calvary.  Can you imagine???"

This reminds me of two things.

Back during the Vietnam war, many had a similar choice facing them.  Some went
to Vietnam and died for others' sakes.  Some avoided the war by legal means.  A
few dodged their legal obligations to go to Vietnam, causing someone else to go
in their places.  I've often wondered who they were that went in the draft
dodgers' steads, and I've also wondered if they would even care to know.

On a higher plane, I'm reminded that Christ did far more than die for a friend
or for a family member or for a fellow citizen:

"You were God's enemies ... But now Christ has made you God's friends again.
He did this by his death" (Colossians 1:21,22).

It is one thing to be nailed to a cross to save a beloved brother's life.  It
is unspeakable mercy and grace to likewise save an enemy by allowing wicked men
to nail your only and sinless Beloved Son to the cross in his stead.  This I
cannot imagine doing.  Only the one true God could love so.

"Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners" (1 Timothy 1:15).

Yours in Christ Jesus,
Leo
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Date:         Mon, 14 Dec 1992 18:25:31 EST
From:         Bernice Tennant <U1A9A@WVNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: The Power of Prayer!

Amen! He hears our prayers.
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Date:         Fri, 11 Dec 1992 14:48:17 CST
From:         Yvette Traylor <YST1@DCCCDBIT.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Teaching children

> I encourage all parents to teach their children in word and in deed to know an
> to love Jesus. Even so, there comes a time when they will make the decisions
> for themselves. The prince of this world, the destroyer, the deceiver, the lia
> is preying upon our children. Television, movies, music and peer pressure are
                                ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> his greatest allies in this battle for your children and mine.
  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Jim,
What really gets me about all this, is that it is as if people have
buried their heads in the sand. It really does amaze me sometimes that
people don't realize that we are being programmed. We only hear what the
governments allows us to hear, we only see what they allow us to see.
And most children are only taught what the government wants them taught.
Well, I am beginning to ramble and it's almost time for the weekend to
start. Have a Good one.

   Yvette Traylor     "We are His people and the sheep of his pasture."
   Dallas County Community College District             Psalm 100:3
   Computer Programmer/Analyst from Dallas - Texas
"I know worse things about myself that you will ever say about me." Anon
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Date:         Mon, 14 Dec 1992 15:00:33 CST
From:         jesse carnes <NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Jeff Dilcher, I presime!

Jeff ;

Sorry about the public post, but could you give me your E-mail address?
I attmpted to send you that post on  the Gospel, but it was returned.


Jesse Carnes
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Date:         Wed, 16 Dec 1992 11:25:51 CST
From:         Chris Reed <CCCHRIS@MIZZOU1.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Abusive relationships
              16 Dec 1992 11:45:14 EST from <harling@ROADRUNNER.PICTEL.COM>

Your point about the limitations placed upon the police departments is well
taken.  Most officers are much more enlightened than they were years ago, and
no doubt domestic violence calls are some of their most difficult & dangerous
ones.  However, even when they can and do take appropriate action, the system
often fails.
An example that immediately comes to mind is one here in Columbia, Missouri
within this past year.  It was on record that a particular couple had such
problems, the woman had called the police on more than one occasion.  They
finally arrested the man after he trashed and burned her car, and then burned
her trailer to the ground.  The judge ordered a very minimal jail sentence,
and he was free shortly thereafter.  It seems to me a sad state of affairs
when someone tries to work within the system, but finds that in order to
survive, they must relocate to a faraway place and perhaps resume a new
identity.
As I said, it's hard for me *not* to sound militant, but I assure you, I do
try.  It's just that remembering, my hands shake and sweat and I feel sick.
To some of us, movies like Sleeping With The Enemy, are just a little too
close to reality for comfort.  I would pray that no one reading this will
ever have to know these feelings first-hand in order to attest to them.

Sincerely,  Chris Reed
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Date:         Mon, 14 Dec 1992 12:30:07 -0700
From:         "John W. Woolley" <jww@EVOLVING.COM>
Subject:      Prayer Request

Brothers and Sisters --

I would like to ask your help, by prayer, in a situation that's not
(as far as I know) an emergency, but is still important.

Last Easter, we started taking one of my daughter's friends to church
with us -- her name is Gelsey, and she's about fifteen.  She was
raised with no religion at all -- her Mom was Roman Catholic as a child,
became a Buddhist in college, and now doesn't practice anything; her
Dad is hostile to all religions without discrimination.  Well, God be
thanked, Gelsey took to prayer and worship right off the bat, like a
duck to water.  She's eager to learn, and (since attending a church
summer camp) wants to be baptized.  Her baptism is tentatively set for
this Easter.

I'm her instructor.  So, please, ask God to give me wisdom to teach
her well, to see where she needs help, to speak the words he wants
her to hear, to guide her into deeper prayer and study and worship.
She gets a few hours of fellowship and worship on Sunday morning,
and a few hours a week with my daughter -- they go to different high
schools, alas --, but very little other exposure to things of God.
I know she's having to deal with a whole lot of worldly influences
from a lot of different directions, so pray God also to protect and
keep her.

Thanks -- this kid is a lot on my heart recently, and I'm carrying
more responsibility here than I like to think about.

In Jesus,

Fr. John
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Date:         Fri, 11 Dec 1992 13:16:06 EDT
From:         Leo W <Leo_W@QM.CIRCA.UFL.EDU>
Subject:      Scripturette 12/11

What is our attitude -- stoning or worshipping?  There seems to be no middle
course:

"This made the Jews try harder to kill him.  They said, "First Jesus was
breaking the law about the Sabbath day.  Then he said that God is his own
Father!  He is making himself equal with God!"" (John 5:18).

"The Father and I are one.  Again the Jews picked up stones to kill Jesus ...
You are only a man, but you say you are the same as God!" (John 10:30-33).

"Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"" (John 20:28).

Yours in Christ Jesus,
Leo

Scriptures quoted from the International Children's Bible (ICB), New Century
Version, copyright 1986, 1988 by Word Publishing, Dallas, Texas 75039.  Used by
permission.
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Date:         Thu, 17 Dec 1992 15:07:00 EST
From:         "DRCV06::GRAHAM" <GRAHAM%DRCV06.decnet@DRCVAX.AF.MIL>
Subject:      Christians and civil rights.

Brenda, no problem about the carrots, I just put some butter on 'em and
they were great.

Many are forgetting the golden rule.  Christians want the right to do as
they please regarding their religious beliefs, but are not willing to
accord equal rights to others that practice what they consider heinous sin.
 I don't care if my kid's teacher is a homosexual, I don't even care if he
reads Playboy, or is a Buddhist.  His job is to teach certain information
and skills.  So long as he does those things, and keeps his personals out
of it, I'm happy.  If he gets into things that are none of HIS business,
then he is a problem, and homosexuality is only one of many things that can
cause such a problem.

You know, I went away for a week and a half and then was sick two days and
this subject is still being tossed around.  It sure seems to me that some
of the folks herein are absolutely unwilling to practice the love and
kindness they so desprately want shown to them.

How about banning sinners from being teachers, after all, any sinner could
teach your child his or her particular darling sin, whether it's apple
stealing or group sex.  Oh, and this bunk about homosexuality being an
affront to God?  Sin is an affront to God.  You and I are filthy, stinking
sinners, deserving of death and hells hottest torch.  How dare anyone
suggest that one sin is greater than another.  To God, we are slime.  In
His matchless Grace, He has reached down and plucked us from the slime pits
and saved us, praise His name.  He saves apple stealers, and homosexuals,
and there's not a whit of difference between them, they / we are all lost
without saving grace.

We should be so thankful for our salvation that we treat everyone with the
kindness shown us.  We should be the first to say that Homosexuals should
not be mistreated nor discriminated against.  I've made my stand on the sin
of homosexuality plain before, I won't do it again.  Sin isn't the issue
here, love and Christlike behavior is.

This whole subjects stinks to high heaven.  In 1 Cor. 6, Paul gives a list
of sins and ends up by saying "and that was you."  The saints come from all
classes of sin, let us not forget this.  Your child will learn a lot more
terrible things from his classmates than any homosexual teacher.  He will
learn to curse and like pictures of naked people and how to perform all
sorts of sex acts and the like.  Stop worrying about the teacher and pay
more attention to what he is learning at your knee.

No offense is meant here, but I hope this upsets some of you enough to
drive you back to the Word and your knees.

Dan Graham
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Date:         Thu, 17 Dec 1992 14:12:57 EST
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From:         Brenda Curry-White <BSCURR01@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU>
Subject:      re: Civil Rights? Why?

Center for Urban and Economic Research
Phone: 502-588-6626

Someone whose userid is BENSON writes to Michele Lofton: "...the sin of
homosexuality is not a good match for the occupation of school teacher.  And
there are many other occupations that it is not a good match for."

I must assume that you believe homosexuals likely pedophiles.  If that were
true, I would agree with you.  However, all evidence I have ever heard shows
just the opposite. I have heard that research shows the rate of child molestors
to be greater among heterosexuals.  Regardless of the sexual orientation
of the offender, child sexual abuse is a crime, and no such perpetrator is
fit to be a school teacher.  We can exclude those taken to reporting for work
under the influence of alcohol from occupations such as piloting because we
have proof through reliable research that those pilots are more likely to
crash.  Before we exclude a whole class of people from an occupation simply
because of a private sexual preference, we'd better be darn sure that they
really are a menace to little kids.  In my three years on Christia, I have
never heard one single shred of evidence to back this assumption up.  But I
have heard a lot of people making these accusations and suggesting that we
discriminate in employment based on these assumptions.  References, please.

(S)He continues:  "The fear is that the law is so broad that we will have
to hire homosexuals in positions that do not make sense from a Christian point
of view."                                                      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
^^^^^^^

(Note to Dan Graham:  Sorry for the carots, I know they don't "talk" well.  I
was trying to underscore.)

In this free society, we are not supposed to hire individuals in positions
that make sense from a Christian point of view (unless we are talking about
church positions).  We have to hire people for positions that make sense from
a legal point of view.  And as long as I value my own freedom to believe how
I choose, to worship how I choose, and to live my life as I choose, I must
respect the rights of others to do the same, assuming that those rights do
not impinge on anyone else's.  Two consenting homosexual adults does not
interfere with anyone else's civil rights, whether what they are doing is
sinful or not.  Murderers, drunken pilots, drunken drivers, rapists and
child abusers do interfere with other's rights.  People who commit those
crimes must be dealt with on individual bases.  If it makes me liberal to
hope that our government continues to deny discrimination based on prejudices
and stereotypes, long live liberalism!

Brenda
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Date:         Mon, 14 Dec 1992 10:19:29 -0700
From:         "Gordon C. Zaft" <zaft@CARITAS.COTDAZR.ORG>
Subject:      Re: Colorado Vote-2

On Dec 14, 12:05am, Tim Rolfe wrote:
} Subject: Re: Colorado Vote-2
}
} Regarding the suitability of THOSE PEOPLE to be teachers, I believe I've
} read that majority of those sexually abusing minors are heterosexuals.
} Maybe we should start a drive to exclude those filthy hets from teaching!
}-- End of excerpt from Tim Rolfe

        Tim, I don't recall anyone mentioning sexual abuse by teachers
as the objection.  I believe the objection was to presentation of the
homosexual lifestyle as an objective good.

        In any case, the question isn't sheer numbers; the majority of
teachers are heterosexual, after all. The question would be relative
numbers, percentage-wise; I don't have any numbers but I doubt the
percentage of homosexual teachers that are abusers is significantly
greater than the percentage of heterosexual teachers.

GZ

--
* Gordon Zaft     Argus Consulting  4500 E. Sunrise #N-6, Tucson, AZ 85718
* zaft@caritas.cotdazr.org | noao.edu!coyote!caritas!zaft
                 Semper fidelis Christi et Vicarii sui.
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Date:         Fri, 18 Dec 1992 12:42:55 -0700
From:         cartnaj <cartnaj@EAGLE.SAFB.AF.MIL>

>
>      (2) that the same persons who now teach the Trinity used to
> believe that the world was flat, and used to argue over how many
> angels can dance on the head of a needle.
>
> around for the Crimean War. But in any event, the widespread belief
> that medieval Christians believed that the earth was flat is simply
> and flatly wrong....

James,

I really enjoy your posts.  IMHO the disinformation on the Bible teaching the
earth to be flat was started in the 19th century to discredit the religious
opposition to the theory of evolution.

Joe
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Date:         Mon, 14 Dec 1992 11:29:08 EST
From:         Marissa Ratcliff <MRATCLIF@UGA.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Christianity?
              12 Dec 1992 10:03:34 GMT from <rohwerwd@NETCOM.COM>

Mr. Rohwer,

   Obviously, you have not been reading many journals or watching any science p
rograms on T.V., lately.  More and more scientists are coming to the conclusion
 that they cannot ignore the supernatural, religious or not, when studying the
universe.
   Also, if religion and science are incompatible, how do you explain the fact
that Enstein was a devote Christian?

Marissa Ratcliff
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Date:         Mon, 14 Dec 1992 15:03:48 CST
From:         CCCHRIS@MIZZOU1.BITNET
Subject:      Tyler's pearly whites

Thank you for your prayers for Tyler.  Everything went very well.  He bounced
back quickly with a positive feeling about his dentist, and about hospitals in
general.  You can imagine my surprise when he told me he wanted to go back and
do it again!!  He just melts my heart!
So much for the old song "All I want for Christmas is my two front teeth."  I
wish we'd gotten off so easy.  But rather than moaning about having spent our
Christmas funds, I'll focus on my blessings.  A job with decent medical and
dental benefits (just the uncovered expenses were enough!)  A healthy child.
And (relief) my having delayed the decision to drop my family dental benefits
in order to save a little money.  Boy, am I glad I didn't!!
Again, thanks to all for your thoughts and prayers.

Chris Reed
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Date:         Sun, 20 Dec 1992 14:30:41 -0700
From:         "Steven E. Hoell" <seh@NEUTRON.PHYSICS.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Calvinism

Regarding my question:

I have located the following passage:

        "The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some
         understand slowness. He is patient with you, not
         wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to
         repentance." (2 Peter 3:9, NIV)

Although Peter is writing to fellow believers, the words "anyone"
and "everyone" seem to indicate that all humanity is the subject.

Other translations use the word "willing" in place of "wanting."
Again, the point of my question is to refine the understanding
of God's Will.


Steve Hoell             seh@neutron.physics.arizona.edu
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Date:         Fri, 18 Dec 1992 11:54:50 CST
From:         jesse carnes <NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: jesse replies on Gospel

On Fri, 18 Dec 1992 10:20:47 -0700 John W. Woolley said:
>Jesse wrote:
>> As to the first point, Gordon sees rather, that Jesus raised himself from the
>> dead.  Now, I will admit that Jesus, Himself, did RISE ; but that is
>different
>> from saying that Jesus raised HIMSELF by His own inertia -- by His own power.
>> So what is the Scriptural analysis on this?
>...
>> Grammatical/historical context of Scripture must have priority over our
>> presuppositions.
>
>But don't forget: "I have power to lay down my life, and to take it
>up again."
>
>I think the solution here lies in the doctrine of the Trinity.  Anything
>done by any of the three Persons is done by all three.  The Father raised
>Christ.  Christ raised himself.  No contradiction.
>>> John ; be careful of the fallacy of "Argument of the 'Beard'."  We
obviously agree that Jesus is Divine and thus part of the Trinity.  However,
they are not all the same person.  The citations imployed by me state that
the FATHER raised Christ and that the SPIRITraised Him as well.  To destroy
this grammatical context is to create a monolithic person, rather than a
three-person Unity.


>> Because although we agree that Christ was, is, and ever shall be inherently
>> Righteous -- in His own right as Diety, that attribute of Divine
>Righteousness
>> CANNOT be given to anyone.
>
>The truth is more radical even than that.  In some sense, we actually
>become the divine attributes, we are raised into God's nature:  "That
>we might be made the righteousness of God in him."
>>> Here John ; permit me to state that although God BECAME a man, MAN
did NOT become GOD ; I am familiar with the Athanasian Creed, but here we
are dealing with the Authority of Scripture, which supercedes any supra-
Scriptural source on that account.  Faulty analogy might be afoot, here
on your part John, albeit not intentional.


--Jesse Irwin Carnes--



>> This brings in the idea that Christ HAD to earn a Righteousness
>> for His people, rather than just stay in Heaven and dump, as it were, a
>> Righteousness INTO us.
>
>The Athanasian Creed speaks to this, as to many other questions, in one
>of its most important verses.  The Incarnation happened, it says, "Not
>by the conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by the raising of
>Manhood into God."  It isn't that Christ sits in heaven "dumping"
>Righteousness into us on Earth -- it's that in him we, now and forever,
>sit in the heavenly places.
>
>Yes, in human terms it makes sense to speak of Jesus' earning a reward,
>and for us.  But let's not let that fact blind us to the fact of his
>eternal righteousness, in which we now (by Mercy, by Grace) participate.
>
>-- Fr. John
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Date:         Mon, 21 Dec 1992 01:28:03 EST
From:         Lon Mendelsohn <LMENDELS@CMS.CC.WAYNE.EDU>
Subject:      Dr. Death

In view of MAKS' recent postings on Jack Kevorkian, I thought I'd post
the following from today's newspaper (Detroit Free Press).  Kevorkian
lives in the Detroit area, btw.  This is the text from a comic strip
(Guindon -- it's local to Detroit).

  Most of use what we know best to del with our problems.
  For instance, tell a hairdresser that you're depressed
  and she'll recommend a make-over.

  Tell a volunteer that you're depressed and you'll be told
  to go help someone else.  (the panel shows a person working
  in a soup kitchen)

  Tell a pathologist that you're depressed and you get a tank
  and a mask.  (the panel shows a caricature of Kevorkian, who is
  a retired pathologist)

Shalom,

Lon Mendelsohn
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