HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.games.netrek reorganization
From: hill@norman.VI.RI.CMU.EDU (Robert Hill)
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 19:11:35 GMT
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon

Andy McFadden writes
> In article <BxKI3F.Dn8.2@cs.cmu.edu> hill@norman.VI.RI.CMU.EDU (Robert  
Hill) writes:
> >Tom Holub writes
> >>   Please, people, don't have this discussion in rec.games.netrek.
> >
> >How stupid.  Its not that i'm againt proceedure, or anything, but I 
> >just find it rediculous that this discussion left rec.games.netrek at 
> >this stage.
> 
> It isn't really a Netrek-related discussion, it's a news group 
> discussion, so it belongs in news.groups.
> 
> Personally, I'm really glad that I don't have to look at the discussion.

Yes...this is probably a general idea of readers of rec.games.netrek.   
This is why this dicussion should take place there, not here.  Who wants  
to waid through 300 messages a day to find 3 related to this issue?   
Fortunately, I have a find feature...most don't.  You don't get the real  
idea of what people want if only 1% of the people say anything here.  What  
kind of discussion is that?

Sure its a news group discussion, but its about rec.games.netrek.  I find  
it truly odd that we are discussing it here.

> As I see it, the issues are:
> (1) do we want another group(s)?

I, personally do not.  NO

> (2) do we want the divisions adc proposed?

I, most certainly, do not...NO.  No crossposting isn't the way to go.

> (3) do we want them to be moderated?

If we have a reorganization, I would have no problem with a moderator for  
some of the subgroups....I GUESS SO

> (4) do we want adc to moderate them?

I don't mind if alan moderates....NO OPINION

> fadden@uts.amdahl.com (Andy McFadden)

Rob
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: cbnorman@cayley.uwaterloo.ca ()
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.games.frp.campaign
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 06:58:01 GMT

In article <1992Nov9.155419.9446@dartvax.dartmouth.edu> hades@Dartmouth.Edu writes:
>cbnorman@cayley.uwaterloo.ca () writes:
>
>    No, you are correct, but people have mentioned groups other than
>r.g.frp.misc in their posts as being appropriate places for posts that
>you would like to see in .campaign, and I think that this should be
>given greater consideration than you seem to be giving.
>
Fair enough.

>>Rec.games.frp.campaign is all about the campaign, and campaigning, two
>>of the most important aspects of Fantasy Role Playing.
>
>    True, but rec.games.frp is about more than "Fantasy Role Playing" it
>is about all forms of role playing games, and all genres. You should be
>careful how you state things. Just because a news group's name has a
>possible interpretation this doesn't necessarily define the group's
>content.
>
Well, when I use the term "Fantasy Role Playing" I'm merely expounding on
the abreviation .frp which not everyone in this newsgroup may be 
knowledgible of.  In other words, you can assume I mean all games
in the FRP hierarchy when I say "Fantasy Role Playing".

>>Despite the fact that campaigns and campaigning have been discussed in
>>other newsgroups in the past, the fact remains that their is sufficient
>>interest in campaigns and campaigning to warrent an entire newsgroup
>>just devoted to them.
>
>    Ah... here we finally come to the thing. It has yet to be proven
>that there is sufficient interest in this group. A few people posting

Once again, fair enough.  I'm starting a "straw vote" to see if there is
enough interest for a full CFV.  More details soon...

>    If you are wrong, then you have wasted the time, money and effort of
>a whole lot of people on something that should never have been proposed.
>You aren't the first to do this, and unfortunately you won't be the
>last.

Yes, I'll be right up there with Bush and Perot :)
From: jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Date: 9 Nov 1992 22:37:20 GMT
Organization: UT Health Science Center Houston

In article <1992Nov9.195412.2898@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov writes:
>jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard) writes:
>>I'm completely flexible about implementing the expressed wishes of the net.
>That I do not see from your actions.

Sure. Any way we can accomplish what the expressed wishes of the net are - in
this case, renaming the group - is OK with me.

>>>Look, can't you even see that there is a problem?
>>Only because you're causing one with your stubbornness.
>It's not just me anymore. 

...but it started out as just you...

My point stands: if you weren't causing the problem, there wouldn't be one.

>>I stand by the accusation. If it weren't for you stirring the pot, this issue
>>would have blown over by now and we'd have one, unsplit group. Instead, YOU
>>are going to split the group up. The people have spoken, and you don't like
>>the answer.
>I and at least 14 others...

How many of those 14 others were obstructing the wishes of the net before you
started complaining?

>It wasn't exactly open. It was (intentionally or no) quite easy for the 
>untrained user to miss. 

Horse pucky. It'd be gross and blatant stupidity to try to hide such a thing
behid a group name, as all it would take to be discovered is one person
reading the message anyway.

>>The users have spoken. Can't you see that?
>I am. That's why I STARTED this whole mess. They spoke. 

...and you didn't like what they said, so you're trying to torpedo it.
-- 
Jay Maynard, EMT-P, K5ZC, PP-ASEL | Never ascribe to malice that which can
jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu      | adequately be explained by stupidity.
     We survived Jimmy Carter; we'll (probably) survive Bill Clinton.
Newsgroups: news.groups,rec.music.synth,news.admin
From: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes)
Subject: Re: Intentional ignorance of newsgroup creation (was Re: *BAD*...)
Reply-To: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov
Organization: Jet Propulsion Lab - Pasadena, CA
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 19:48:55 GMT

chip@tct.com (Chip Salzenberg) writes:
>>Almost NOBODY reads n.a.n even though I post several places "READ THE
>>USENET DOCUMENTATION" which contains copies of all the standard usenet
>>docs (including the guidelines). 
>I'm glad for your users' sake that you've gone to that much trouble to
>educate them.  It's too bad they haven't taken advantage of your help.

I get it now!!

The following is a theory of the dynamic at the core of this entire
argument. It is in the general sense, and not specifically attuned to
any one person.

Admins are people who joyfully grab obscure or unrelated documentation
and read it to find relavence. 

Users as a general rule abhor such documentation, and avoid it like the
plague.

While admins develop skills at finding documentation, users develop
skills at ignoring documentation and just going for what they need 
at the time.

SO what we are seeing here is the class struggle of the admin vs the user.

(There *is* a class system at work here! I knew it. The signs were all there...
rampant elitism, a set of all-encompassing "thou shalt not break" rules, and 
a cadre of police.)

Now...

>You've amply proved the point that people who choose to remain
>ignorant will struggle valiantly to avoid knowing what they don't want
>to know, despite heroic efforts to educate them.  So why do you want
>to protect them from the effects of that choice?

That's a perception from an admin standpoint. It is valid within it's
own sphere of influence...however from a users standpoint it goes like:

"How much documentation do I have to read? These admins want me to read
'War and Peace' before I have to use a system. Geez...I just want to read
stuff about MIDI and synths."

Admins as a typical example, get chastised by management for wanting users 
to read documenation. (Believe me I know!) So news is one of the few places 
admins get away with forcing users to read documentation, or taking some
consequences. 

This explains the delight I see in the assertion that "The ignorant 
deserve what they get".  It appears to be payback. This is a natural
human phenomena. 
-- 
Dave Hayes - Network & Communications Engineering - JPL / NASA - Pasadena CA
dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov       dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov         ...usc!elroy!dxh

   Advice is priceless; when it becomes interference it is preposterous.
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen)
Subject: Re: Music Group Reorg Disagreement (was Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored)
Reply-To: gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen)
Organization: Metrosoft
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 22:03:12 GMT

In article <BxGoxM.8M@news.orst.edu> stanley@skyking.OCE.ORST.EDU (John  
Stanley) writes:
> In article <1992Nov9.100735.11698@jato.jpl.nasa.gov>  
dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov writes:
> 
> >Regardless of limitations, the subject line does need to be clear. 
> 
> "CFV". Three letters. 
> 
That only works IF you know what "CFV" stands for (show me where the  
acronym is defined) and you happen to know that important things can be  
buried in a vote that looks like it belongs to another group. Please spare  
me the "it was in the affected group" argument. It can still be clearer  
than that. Have you been following this thread?

> >Let me rephrase this so that there's no misunderstanding.
> >
> >"The Call For Votes subject line should be clear to even the first
> >time usenet reader. Otherwise people may not pay attention to it."
> 
> If the first time USENET reader sees the acronym CFV and decides without
> investigation that it is something that he is not interested in, that is
> his decision.
> 
So every time a reader sees any acronym in a message he should read the  
message? Do you actually do this?

You don't think this can be handled in any better way?

-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------
Gordon Van Huizen           vox: 619.488.9411  fax: 619.488.3045
Metrosoft                   gvh@metrosoft.com [NeXTmail welcome]
----------------------------------------------------------------
From: jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: More fuel for the music reorg debate
Date: 11 Nov 1992 21:48:21 GMT
Organization: UT Health Science Center Houston

In article <9211110830.AA12739@elxr.jpl.Nasa.Gov> dave@elxr.Jpl.Nasa.Gov (Dave Hayes) writes:
><Any group creation request which follows these guidelines to a
>successful result should be honored...except under extraordinary 
>circumstances.  The reason these are called guidelines and not absolute 
>rules is that it is not possible to predict in advance what "extraordinary 
>circumstances" are or how they might arise.>

Simple. Convince us that these are extraordinary circumstances. You'll have to
do better than just complaining about the Subject: line, though, as that
argument is too thin to support that contention, and has been rejected by just
about everyone who's posted to the question and had some experience in this
area.
-- 
Jay Maynard, EMT-P, K5ZC, PP-ASEL | Never ascribe to malice that which can
jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu      | adequately be explained by stupidity.
     We survived Jimmy Carter; we'll (probably) survive Bill Clinton.
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen)
Subject: Re: r.m.makers reorg -- access problems
Reply-To: gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen)
Organization: Metrosoft
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 15:59:00 GMT

In article <1dr9b3INNcgn@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> fau@po.CWRU.Edu (Francis A.  
Uy) writes:
> 
> In a previous article, pwh@bradley.bradley.edu (Pete Hartman) says:
> 
> >THE NAME CHANGE DOES NOT ROB ANYONE OF ACCESS.  STUBBORN IDIOTS
> >WHO CAN'T BE BOTHERED TO PAY ATTENTION TO THE NAME CHANGE ARE
> >ROBBING PEOPLE OF ACCESS IF *ANYONE* IS.
> 
> The name change has robbed at least one person
>  of access.  jrossi, who I wrote about in a
>  previous article ("victim of r.m.m needs help"),
>  is not able to switch over to r.m.m.synth
>  because he has been getting r.m.synth sent to
>  him by a daemon.  No one at the sending site
>  knows anything about it + thus can't change it.

Gee - where's the guy that offered to help when things like this happened?
-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------
Gordon Van Huizen           vox: 619.488.9411  fax: 619.488.3045
Metrosoft                   gvh@metrosoft.com [NeXTmail welcome]
----------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Source on Asian republics
From: codish@chen.bgu.ac.il (Shlomi Codish )
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 13:08:12 GMT
Organization: Ben Gurion University, Beer Sheva, Israel

I hope someone can help me with this...

I am looking for a source on various aspects of life (economics, politics,
culture etc.) if the former Soviet Central Asian republics.

I prefer a source (sources?) on the Internet but a dial in source is also
very useful to me.

Please write to me via e-mail as I do not normally follow this group.

Thanks!

Shlomi Codish
codish@chen.bgu.ac.il
From: mike@jammin.nosc.mil (mike pawka)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: Bogus CFV: rec.music.reggae
Date: 9 Nov 92 16:16:26 GMT
Organization: NRaD

In article <1dm17qINNcuj@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>, fau@po.CWRU.Edu (Francis A. Uy) writes:
|> 
|> In a previous article, lazlo@triton.unm.edu (Lazlo Nibble) says:
|> 
|> >doing it one paragraph at a time.  (At this rate, I estimate he'll finally
|> >figure out how to post a valid CFD and get things officially rolling
|>                                 ^^^
|> Lazlo!
|> 
|> BTW, r.m.reggae sounds good to me.
|> -- 

	Be sure to vote for it next summer!!

							Mike
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: twpierce@unix.amherst.edu (Tim Pierce)
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Organization: Homosexual Fascist Lobby, Rampant Paranoia Division
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 13:53:57 GMT

In article <1992Nov9.211128.3244@metrosoft.com> gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen) writes:

>In article <2AFE689F.549E@tct.com> chip@tct.com (Chip Salzenberg) writes:
>
>> But there
>> is no "class system", because these classes are _self_selecting_ and
>> _open_to_all_.
>
>They aren't "self selecting" at all. They are "open" to people that have a  
>certain amount of "net experience".

... which is often garnered simply by reading the appropriate
documentation, which is typically pointed to us when we first start
our newsreader or when we encounter a vote on a group we're interested
in.

Any class that is based on experience in a forum like this is
self-selecting.

-- 
____ Tim Pierce                / 
\  / twpierce@unix.amherst.edu / I use antlers in all of my decorating.
 \/ (BITnet: TWPIERCE@AMHERST) / 
Newsgroups: news.groups,news.admin.policy
From: rorschak@daimi.aau.dk (Jesper Lauridsen)
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Organization: Xanth Watch
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 92 17:01:45 GMT

dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes) writes:

>tomh@wes.on.ca (Tom Haapanen) writes:
>>An observation,
>>  - Dave Hayes' name appears in the voters' list for rec.music.makers.*
>>    reorganization, with a 'N' vote for rec.music.makers.synth.

>>A conclusion,
>>  - Therefore, Dave Hayes was aware of the content of the CFV, and of the
>>    proposed renaming of the r.m.s group long before the vote was over.

>A better one. Dave Hayes, being aware of the readership of r.m.s, just *knew*
>that it would never pass because he *knew* rec.music.synth. Go figure. 

So later Dave Hayes saw that he was wrong and the vote passed. But Dave Hayes
is one of those that cannot fail, no he, and only he, knows what is hidden in
the heart of each and every rec.music.synth reader. So Dave Hayes decided
that something was wrong with the vote, cause it had not fallen the way
Dave Hayes predicted, and started a campaign.

-- 
Jesper Lauridsen        |  I survived the rec.arts.sf-lovers split
rorschak@daimi.aau.dk   |
From: smithj@hpsad.sad.hp.com (Jim Smith)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Date: 5 Nov 92 02:03:43 GMT
Article-I.D.: hpsad.23690003
Organization: no risk to you!

In news.groups, dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes) writes:

    <...>
    As a news admin and a reader of rec.music.synth, and noticing that the
    vote passed by one measly vote (there were 101 more yes than no votes)
    I am officially stating my intent to NOT honor the newgroup for 
    "rec.music.makers.synth" and to keep alive the "rec.music.synth" newsgroup.

    <...>
    I also encourage other news admins out there to look into this problem as an
    example of an officially sanctioned act that will turn out to inconvienence
    a lot of people. This is bogus, folks.

This would be WONderful, if everyone does it.  But what if some sites drop
rec.music.synth and the traffic gets split?  Is there anything that can be
done about this netwide?  

It really has been a devastating month for the rec.music.synth crowd, and
it's sad to see the group dissipated by this incursion.

	    - Jim Smith  smithj@hpsad.sad.hp.com
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: steyn@cs.rochester.edu (Gavin Steyn)
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.arts.shakespeare
Organization: Computer Science Department University of Rochester
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 12:45:16 GMT

In article <u645TB1w165w@bluemoon.use.com> cmcurtin@bluemoon.use.com (Matthew Curtin) writes:

>Well... considering that Shakespeare didn't write any books, per se, I 
>wouldn't expect to see a discussion of Shakespeare in RAB. :-)

Well, all expectations aside, Shakespeare is discussed pretty regularly in
RAB.  (Do you read rab at all, or were you just guessing here?)

Gavin Steyn
steyn@cs.rochester.edu
"So he's had the lifelong ambition of reversing the polarity of the earth?"
Xref: sparky news.groups:21220 rec.games.netrek:9565
From: barry@seas.smu.edu (Robert Barry)
Newsgroups: news.groups,rec.games.netrek
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.games.netrek reorganization (long)
Keywords: RIDICULOUS.  SIMPLY RIDICULOUS.
Date: 11 Nov 92 17:58:30 GMT
Organization: SMU School Of Engineering and Applied Science

In article <1992Nov10.225916.25749@ncsu.edu> jecoleb@eos.ncsu.edu writes:
>His reasoning for the split?  "Too much traffic for him to keep up."  Well,
>BIG, FAT, HAIRY DEAL.  It's not my fault that you have a fractured attention
>span, too little free time, or a news server with long expire times.

I agree.  Its very easy to ignore threads that dont interest you.

>Read my lips:
>rec.games.netrek doesn't NEED a split.
>rec.games.netrek doesn't WANT a split.
>rec.games.netrek DIDN'T ASK YOU to call for a split.
>rec.games.netrek doesn't really give a rat's butt WHAT your personal problems
>	or dysfunctional USENet reading habits are.
>I'm half tempted to counter-propose that all rec.games.netrek traffic be split
>between rec.games.netrek and rec.games.netrek.armadillo.buggerers.  With the
>sense of humor of most of the r.g.n. posters, I have a feeling that my 
>K*nt-inspired idea might just pass instead. ;)

I'd vote for that.

>
>Don't take this to a CFV, Alan.  You're just going to be embarrassed.
>
>I would marshal the forces of every netrek player I could find to help shoot
>this idea down if it comes to a vote, except that I seriously doubt such vote
>spamming would be NECESSARY.
...
>				Jeff Coleburn, N.C. State
>				a.k.a. Commodore Video Sex Pope [retired]

If you didn't read the "long" post - this is the important part.

I emphatically agree.

Robert J. Barry
From: LIPSCOJA@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu (Andy Lipscomb)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Group splits, killfiles...
Date: 9 Nov 92 15:38:42 GMT
Organization: Vanderbilt University
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.21

> However, people here seem to be implying that noone _ever_ posts bogus RFD
> or CFV subjects in newsgroups.  In rec.games.frp.misc there was a whole
> discussion about Gurps (a specific games system) that came through with a
> subject line something like "RFD - Gurps System Rolls" or some such.  I don't
> think this was a real RFD...I doubt it ever appeared in news.groups and I had
> little to no interest in the subject.  I read the first couple of posts to
> see if it had any relevance to me and didn't see any.  If suddenly this had
> turned into another split discussion of rec.games.frp.misc without a change
> in subject header, I, for one, would have been _very_ unhappy.  Some people
> put specific games titles in their kill files.  If I had "Gurps" in my kill
> file (I don't use one, so I don't know how it works) would I have missed an
> RFD labeled this way?  It could actually be a valid and important question,
> yes?
> 		Just a lurker,
> 				Laura Mollett

Yes, you could have missed everything.  A note as to how to do it right:
When rec.games.diplomacy was going through the voting process, someone realized
that people who had killfiled diplomacy would miss the vote.  They then
reposted it with * instead of diplomacy in the subject line.

The real solution is for people to read EVERYTHING in news.announce.newgroups;
but can it be done?


Andy Lipscomb
lipscoja@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu (Bitnet: lipscoja@vuctrvax)
Don't blame me, I voted Libertarian.
From: jodar@aludra.usc.edu (Nicholas Jodar)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: Re. soc.religion.islam.ahmadiyya
Followup-To: soc.religion.islam
Date: 9 Nov 1992 20:29:01 -0800
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: aludra.usc.edu
Summary: Why is this here?

Assalamu Alaikum....

Auzu Billahi Min Ash-Shaitan Nirajeem.  Bismillah...

In article <1992Nov4.144801.1390@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu>, Brother
Nasir Jamil (njamil@nyx.cs.du.edu) writes:
>
>	  AN OPEN CHALLENGE TO ALL THOSE WHO THINK AHMADIS 
>	ARE NOT MUSLIMS BECAUSE THEY DO BELIEVE THE PROPHET 
>	          CAN COME AFTER MUHAMMAD (PBOH)
>

While this might be of interest to some people, it seems to me 
that new.groups is not the appropriate place to to discuss 
such matters.  For this reason, I have taken the liberty of 
redirecting followups to soc.relgion.islam, which is where they 
are usually discussed (and where I feel they belong).


With apologies to innocent bystanders,

-AQ
From: nazir@sw.stratus.com (Meer Nazir)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: Discussion request: Keeping soc.religion.* flat
Keywords: Proposed Guidelines Addition
Date: 10 Nov 92 22:27:20 GMT
Reply-To: nazir@jets.sw.stratus.com
Organization: Stratus Computer Inc.
NNTP-Posting-Host: tornadic.sw.stratus.com

In article <1dndvmINNrlf@aludra.usc.edu>, jodar@aludra.usc.edu (Nicholas Jodar) writes:
> 
> Greetings, all! :-)
> 
 stuff deleted
> 
> It is assumed that such a move would mean some restructuring of
> existing groups, but that doesn't sound too difficult.  (But what
> do I know?  I'm ignorant.... :-) )
> 
> -AQ

I think its a very noble idea because as we all know that there are so many 
sects of religions that all group hierarchy should be soc.religion.* instead
of subgroups. 
As far as Ahmadia is concerned it even does not come under sects of ISLAM. It 
is a totally different religion with its different prophet, same as bahai.
So I say clearly***NO*** for soc.religion.islam.ahmadiyya

Thanx

Meer Nazir
Newsgroups: news.groups