HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: barrym@informix.com (Barry Mednick)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Times on Base: all-time records and Frank Thomas
Summary: HBP, error skills
Date: 9 Sep 92 16:49:54 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Informix Software, Inc.

In article <1992Sep8.154935.16353@menudo.uh.edu> chee1l5@jetson.uh.edu (Sam Lane) writes:
>
>If you include HBP, then why don't you include reaching on errors and reaching on a fielder's
>choice?  They include the same amount of skill (none).
I have trouble with this concept.
   1-Being hit by pitch is not random.  Check out the records of Don Baylor
and Ron Hunt.  Baylor had a way of seeming to turn away from an inside pitch
while he actually moved his front thigh forward into the path of the ball.
   2-In order to reach base on error or by fielder's choice, you have to 
put the ball into play.  Players who strike out often or hit a lot of flys
do not hit into as many errors or FC's as batters who hit ground balls.
Speed is also a factor.
What Dr. Dave is using is the numerator for On Base Percentage.  Including
HBP sounds good to me.

 
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: claudius@leland.Stanford.EDU (Nelson Lu)
Subject: Re: More about Sanders/Alou/Karros
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 92 00:09:34 GMT

In article <1992Sep11.003545.19604@leland.Stanford.EDU> claudius@leland.Stanford.EDU (Nelson Lu) writes:
>This is what I get for the three of them, then, using my method:
>
>Sanders:	value as CF:	1.04
>		value as LF:	0.48
>		total:		1.52
>
>Karros:		value as 1B:	0.48
>		total:		0.48
>
>Alou:		value as LF:	0.97
>		value as RF:	0.11
>		value as CF:	0.04
>		total:		1.12
>
>I rest my case for the moment, but reserve the right to cross-examine any
>witnesses. :-)

Actually, I guess I will reopen my case, just for one witness.  David Grabiner
suggested multiplying this "value" by (outs/27) to find out the number of runs
that the player contributed to the team:

Sanders:	13.6
Karros:		5.9
Alou:		8.8

Using this method, Sanders is roughly 130% more valuable than Karros, and
Alou 50% more.

===============================================================================
GO CALIFORNIA ANGELS!
===============================================================================
Nelson Lu (claudius@leland.stanford.edu)
From: winstonc@aludra.usc.edu (|)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Fielder
Date: 11 Sep 1992 13:37:41 -0700
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: aludra.usc.edu

Regarding Fielder, RBI's, RISP's, RBI/RISP, E(RBI/RISP), P(RBI | RISP)
and all other such stats,

GIGO.

Let's put this damn thread to rest, OK, at least for another month. :-)




-- 
Winston Chang		    "Truth is beauty, beauty truth;
winstonc@aludra.usc.edu	     That is all ye know on earth,
			     And all ye need to know."
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: niepornt@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (David Marc Nieporent)
Subject: Re: Personal Attacks on the Net
Originator: news@nimaster
Organization: Princeton University
Distribution: na
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1992 06:13:41 GMT

In <6311@transfer.stratus.com> jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com writes:
>In <1261.2ab051b7@atlas.nafb.trw.com>  mspede@atlas.nafb.trw.com writes:

>> On a new local sportstalk radio show (LA area), the two jocks were discussing
>>  major awards.  Their first proposition was that Eck must win either MVP
>>  or Cy Young (I had no big problem with that).  But, according to them,
>>  Cecil is now a major contender this year due to those 31 hrs and massive rbi
>>  totals.

I just don't think Fielder deserves that Cy Young award, no matter how
many RBIs he has.

>Why?  Eckersley deserves either award only slightly more than Fielder
>deserves MVP (in fact, I'd be less likely to give him MVP than
>Fielder).  Why?  First off, he has pitched 66 innings.  I can't
>see someone who played that little getting an MVP.  (Unlike some
>folks, though, I have no problem, in principle, with starting
>pitchers winning the MVP.)  As for Cy Young, I'd give it to Clemens,
>though a few other folks (including Eck) deserve to be considered.

Seriously, there's no way anyone except Clemens deserves the Cy, and I'm
writing my congressman if someone else does.  

But as to the Eck for MVP?  I don't think I'd give it to him, but I
don't think his 66 innings are definitely a negative. Don't forget,
those are virtually all high leverage innings he's pitching. 
(Furthermore, it'll be higher by the end of the season.)

As to your point about pitchers winning MVPs, what I find most amusing
are that the same mediots who say that there's no way a pitcher deserves
MVP over an everyday player also say that "Pitching Wins Pennants" and
"Good Pitching Beats Good Hitting."

>I'm sure someone radio stations in Toronto are pushing Morris for 
>the Cy Young. After all, he is 18-5 :)   Amazing what you can do 
>despite a 4.19 ERA on a winning team.   The Jays are averaging 
>almost 6 runs a game when Morris pitches.

Some?  If local radio stations in Toronto are ANYTHING like those in
Baltimore, they've already finished their voting.  After all, everybody
in Baltimore seems to think the #2 starter on the O's (Rick Sutcliffe) is 
the team MVP, despite the presence of Brady, Hoiles, and Mike Mussina,
not to mention Alan Mills, on the grounds that "he's helped all the
other pitchers along with his veteran influence."

I'm still trying to figure out exactly which pitchers have improved
since Sutcliffe joined the team.  (Certainly not Mike Flanagan, who was
last year's Designated Veteran Pitcher To Provide Leadership To The
Young Pitchers.)

-- 
David M. Nieporent   | Orioles 1992 World Series Champions
niepornt@phoenix.    | Mike Mussina 1992 AL Cy Young Winner
   princeton.edu     | Brady Anderson 1992 AL MVP
Vote Clinton/Gore '92.  
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: nissim@mary.fordham.edu (Leonard J. Nissim)
Subject: Re: Just a thought...
Organization: Fordham University
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1992 16:07:00 GMT
X-Posted-From: mary.fordham.edu
X-Posted-Through: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In article <Sep.4.17.12.51.1992.2511@remus.rutgers.edu>, wapitten@remus.rutgers.edu (William Pittenger) writes...
> 
>	I have a question for everyone.  This question has been asked
>in many different forms for many years, but I am interested in what us
>fans think, not the "experts".   Ok here is it:
>	If you were a manager or GM and you only had these two
>choices, no if, ands, or buts, or conditions, but just the choice of
>having a team that had excellent pitching and terrible hitting, or
>terrible pitching and excellent hitting.  When I say excellent, I
>mean, as a team their stats and performance are in at least the top 3
>in the league and terrible would bew just the opposite, the bottom 3
>in the league.  There is no mixture and no changes.  It would be like
>having either a team from 1968 or a team from say..1930...meaning
>either all pitching, no hitting, or all hitting and no pitching.
[stuff deleted]
>I'm looking forward to your responces,
> 
>-Bill P.
>wapitten@gandalf.rutgers.edu
>-- 
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Bill Pittenger            "I smile because I have not idea what is going on"
>Douglass Library GAL             
>Site Manager RUCS-US                         wapitten@gandalf.rutgers.edu
>Rutgers, The State University of New Jersey         
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Having enjoyed very many 1-0, 2-0, or 2-1 wins pitched by Sandy Koufax, I would
rather have a team that was all pitching, no hitting.  At least you're still 
close in the late innings (e.g. trailing 2-1 in the 9th).  With the other type
of team, you're often out of the game (e.g. trailing 12-7 in the 9th) despite  
your great hitting.  

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Leonard Nissim, notorious Dodger fanatic     (nissim@mary.fordham.edu)  
Disclaimer:  "I speak only for myself."   
World Championships:  Brooklyn-----1955   
                      Los Angeles--1959  1963  1965  1981  1988
Currently 54-80; will this misery never end?  Another 9th-inning comeback 
                 wasted yesterday:  Grand slam in the top of the 9th to take
                 the lead, blown save in the bottom of the 9th.  Retch, vomit. 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: sgs@milton.u.washington.edu (Steven Smith)
Subject: Birthdays
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 17:37:31 GMT

Baseball Birthdays

September 11
Dave Roberts, 1944
Eddie Miksis, 1926
Ellis Burks, 1964
Steve Brodie, 1868
Jeff Newman, 1948
Don Slaught, 1959
Harry Anderson, 1931
Larry Cox, 1947
Ray Grimes, 1893

September 12
Mickey Lolich, 1940
Charlie "King Kong" Keller, 1916
Spurgeon "Spud" Chandler, 1907
Lil' Albie Pearson, 1934
Mark Thurmond, 1956
Andy Seminick, 1920
Stan Lopata, 1925
Bubba Church, 1924
Russ Christopher, 1917
Bob Groom, 1884
Fred Luderus, 1885

September 13
Rick Wise, 1945
Rick Dempsey, 1949
Thornton Starr "Lefty" Lee, 1906
Eddie Rommel, 1897
Walter "Dutch" Ruether, 1893
Harold "Rabbit" Warstler, 1903
Greg Hibbard, 1964
Mike Fischlin, 1955
Rodney McCray, 1963

--Steve
-- 
 sgs@u.washington.edu             * 
 Steve Smith                      * "We want a pitcher, not a belly itcher." 
 University of Washington HR-20   *    			-- Bill Plummer
 Seattle, WA 98195                *
From: luigi@sgi.com (Randy Palermo)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Who's better?
Date: 11 Sep 92 20:33:49 GMT
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc., Mountain View, CA

In article <1992Sep11.072237.10286@muddcs.claremont.edu> karaki@jarthur.claremont.edu (Kurt*z* S. Araki) writes:
>
>Now that we have both Garys back let's argue this again...
>
>Can we now safely conclude that Dennis Eckersley surpasses Rollie
>Fingers as the best reliever ever?
>-- 
>(no sig)
>-KSA

Well I'm not sure about that but what about Dan Gladden's worth in the
dugout. He should be worth about 4-6 wins a year, don't you think? He's
pretty average on the field but a fiery guy like that has to be worth
something. 

For the humor impaired:
:^):^):^):^):^):^):^):^):^):^):^):^):^):^):^):^):^):^):^):^):^):^):^):^)

luigi
--
Randy Palermo   luigi@csd.sgi.com    Fax: (415)961-6502
Silicon Graphics Computer Systems, 2011 N. Shoreline Blvd Mt. View, CA 94039
"Play an accordion, go to jail. That's the LAW"
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: claudius@leland.Stanford.EDU (Nelson Lu)
Subject: Re: Stupid Injuries (was Re: Life  6.F)
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 92 20:56:55 GMT

In article <1992Sep11.193144.18066@stsci.edu> rkidwell@stsci.edu (Richard C. Kidwell,mgr) writes:

>Was it Ron Darling who pruned his finger with a hedge trimmer a couple
>years ago?

No, it was Bob Ojeda.

===============================================================================
GO CALIFORNIA ANGELS!
===============================================================================
Nelson Lu (claudius@leland.stanford.edu)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: claudius@leland.Stanford.EDU (Nelson Lu)
Subject: Re: The trouble with Angels...
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 92 00:08:14 GMT

In article <92255.57644.6669030@LMSC5.IS.LMSC.LOCKHEED.COM> 6669030@LMSC5.IS.LMSC.LOCKHEED.COM writes:
>I watched the Angels recently in a Series against Oakland, and I cam to
>the following conclusion:
>
>The California Angels are the most inept, punchless, wimpy, team in the majors.

I wouldn't go as far to say that they are inept and wimpy, but they are
punchless all right.
>
>Who let them in this league?  And how on earth have they managed 60+ wins?
>Mr. Lu from Stanford, could you clue me in on some of this?

Some reasons:

Jim Abbott
Mark Langston
Julio Valera
Joe Grahe
Bryan Harvey
Mark Eichhorn (gone)
Steve Frey

Basically, the Angels have a respectable pitching staff, and that's it.

===============================================================================
GO CALIFORNIA ANGELS!
===============================================================================
Nelson Lu (claudius@leland.stanford.edu)
From: vl11+@andrew.cmu.edu (Victor Lin)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball,soc.culture.japan
Subject: Re: Japan Central League
Date: 14 Sep 92 05:08:24 GMT
Article-I.D.: andrew.Yeh8v8e00Vp58RVUhR
	<1992Sep14.104141.17539@bcrka451.bnr.ca>
Distribution: rec
Organization: Junior, Math/Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA

>Hiroshi,

>    Thank you for posting results of Japan Central League games.  I
>believe that there is another league in Japan (the Pacific League?).
>Please, can you post results from that, also?

I thought the Pacific was the ONLY league!
Just joking.  But consider its dominance over the Central League in 
playoff series and all-star games, it's just like the NFC in the NFL.

The pennant race in the Pacific, however, is very boring.
With the Lions being the perennial champions and the Buffaloes the
only other contender, the attention is directed to the Central, where
there are still at least 4 teams in the pennant chase.  (All six were in
contention until not long ago.)

B. S.  I am a Central fan!!  Although it might not be politically correct
(at least on this bboard) to admit I'm a Giants fan.  NO FLAMES, 
please.

>-- 
>Jim Dean (Internet: jimdean@bnr.ca) +-----+    National Capital
>Baseball League
>mild-mannered computer scientist -->|Phone|--> President. Pitcher. My
>knuckler?
>Bell-Northern Research, Ottawa,Ont. |Booth|    Not too legit to hit! 
6-0, >1.99
>Phone: (613) 763-2135 Fax: 763-7241 +-----+    Phone: (613) 723-1580

----------------------------------------------------
Victor H. Lin                  vl11+@andrew.cmu.edu      
School of Computer Science
Carnegie Mellon University     TEL: (412)681-3139
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
----------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: brian@rosemount.com (Brian Bergevin-Smith)
Subject: WANTED: Oakland A's remaining schedule
Reply-To: brian@rosemount.com
Organization: Rosemount, Inc.
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 19:46:34 GMT

Would someone be so kind as to mail me the remaining Oakland A's schedule?

---
Brian Bergevin-Smith
From: demers@cs.ucsd.edu (David DeMers)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Times on Base: all-time records and Frank Thomas
Date: 11 Sep 92 17:20:38 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: =CSE Dept., U.C. San Diego

In article <1992Sep11.143252.1267@island.COM> fester@island.COM (Mike Fester) writes:
>In article <1992Sep8.223422.16796@Princeton.EDU> roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig) writes:
>>In article <1992Sep8.191849.3728@menudo.uh.edu> chee1l5@jetson.uh.edu (Sam Lane) writes:

[I confess, it was me who wrote:]

>>>> btw, if HBP includes no skill, how come Ron Hunt/Don Baylor
>>>> always led in the category?  

>>>Getting hit with a pitch intentionally is extremely stupid. 

>>a) How many HBP are there annually?
>>b) How many result in injuries?

>>In summary: it's an acquired taste.


>You could also throw in catcher's
>interference, if you had the stats. Van Slyke gets one or two of those a year,
>and while not INCREDIBLY significant, it does help.

I just heard that [some player, maybe Roberto Kelly?] has reached
first *SEVEN* times this season on CI.  13 other players in the 
AL have done it once each.  So it's rare, but actually makes
a significant contribution to this player's value to the team.

Now, let's return to the Gary/Gary, anti-stathead/SDCN, 
Fielder's good/no he's not, there's no such thing as "chance" in
baseball/get real, "clutch"/hooey threads...


-- 
Dave DeMers			 ddemers@UCSD   demers@cs.ucsd.edu
Computer Science & Engineering	C-014		demers%cs@ucsd.bitnet
UC San Diego					...!ucsd!cs!demers
La Jolla, CA 92093-0114	(619) 534-0688, or -8187, FAX: (619) 534-7029
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer)
Subject: Re: Ripken's Season
Organization: Cornell Univ. CS Dept, Ithaca NY 14853
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 18:25:47 GMT

In article <60258@mimsy.umd.edu> chernesk@cs.umd.edu (Michael Chernesky) writes:
>In article <BuF8HD.7Hx@news.cso.uiuc.edu> hbrooks@uiatma.atmos.uiuc.edu (Harold_Brooks) writes:
>[In his signature file]
>>Cal Ripken   April-August   .249 BA  .355 SLG  .329 OBA
>>Cal Ripken (1 Sep.- 9 Sep.) .152 BA  .182 SLG  .222 OBA
>
>Does anyone have a breakdown of Cal Ripken's stats since around July 1.  I
>have heard/read that they are so bad that they would make Mark Belanger
>wince.

BATTERS         BA   SLG   OBP   G  AB   R   H  TB 2B 3B HR RBI  BB  SO SB CS
RIPKEN,C 9/6  .243  .344  .321 136 535  62 130 184 22  1 10  60  58  43  4  1
RIPKEN,C 6/28 .289  .449  .369  74 287  41  83 129 14  1 10  38  34  22  2  1
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
difference    .190  .221  .265  62 248  21  47  55  8  0  0  22  24  21  2  0

Ripken has been more of a shit than I thought!  He shouldn't be
batting third.  He shouldn't be batting cleanup.  He shouldn't be
batting fifth.  He shouldn't even be batting ninth!  He should be
riding the pine!

Replace Ripken with Luis Rivera at the start of July (and use a
sensible lineup), and the O's would be tied with the Jays.  And *how*
much will he be earning next year????

Great players can carry a team.  They can also become real millstones
when they don't perform.  Because good or bad, they will play every
day and bat in the middle of the lineup!

Cheers,
-Valentine
-- 
Make outs, not walks!					tedward@cs.cornell.edu
Clemens four Cy Young!
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: nissim@mary.fordham.edu (Leonard J. Nissim)
Subject: Re: Purest Definition of CY Young Award
Organization: Fordham University
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1992 15:40:00 GMT
X-Posted-From: mary.fordham.edu
X-Posted-Through: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In article <1992Sep04.165831.846510@locus.com>, 
aardvark@locus.com (Warren Usui) writes...
>In article <1992Sep4.083454.6215@leland.Stanford.EDU> 
bohnert@leland.Stanford.EDU (matthew bohnert) writes:
>:I believe the inscription on the pedestal of the Cy Young award simply
>:says :
>:
>:MOST VALUABLE PITCHER
>:
> 
>Sure that's all fine and dandy but how else do you determine the most valuable
>pitcher?  Hold them all hostage and see who gets paid the most to be
           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 
>released?  Or you can come up with a price of all the chemicals in their
^^^^^^^^^
>body and find out who is worth the most (in which case Terry Forster
>wins based on shear volume).  Do gold fillings count?
> 
>If it were not based on ERA, strikeouts, wins, innings-pitched, or some other
>number, how can you argue that Roger Clemens is a more valuable pitcher than 
>Tim Crews?
^^^^^^^^^^
> 
>-- 
>Warren Usui
>aardvark@locus.com
>uunet!lcc!aardvark

I would cheerfully pay $100 for someone to take Tim Crews away, preferably *far*
away, from the Dodgers.  :-)  (May he live long and prosper, somewhere else.) 
So by your hostage criterion, he is clearly worth less than nothing.  

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Leonard Nissim, notorious Dodger fanatic     (nissim@mary.fordham.edu)  
Disclaimer:  "I speak only for myself."   
World Championships:  Brooklyn-----1955   
                      Los Angeles--1959  1963  1965  1981  1988
Currently 54-80; wait 'til next century?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: kettler@pierre.mit.edu (KETTLER, THOMAS R.)
Subject: 19 in a row (Re: CUB'S MADDUX EASY CHOICE FOR CY)
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.4-b1  
Organization: MIT Lab for Nuclear Science
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 17:32:00 GMT

In article <1992Sep10.070729.17824@Princeton.EDU>, niepornt@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (David Marc  writes...
>In article <16791@ucdavis.ucdavis.edu> fzchen@othello.ucdavis.edu writes:
>>Hmmm...I always thought that a pitchers job was to win ball games, so now
>>wouldn't the best pitcher be the one that helped the team win the most...
>>I guess 19 in a row is just luck and good run support.
> 
>First of all, no one has won 19 in a row, so I'm not sure who you're
>referring to.  Secondly, assuming someone had, it would very likely
>involve either pure luck, or the luck of getting good run support, yes.
>I never understood why some of the anti-stat people on the net have so
>much trouble accepting the answer "chance" to the question of why a
>particular team or player accomplished a goal. 
> 
Wrong, there was a pitcher who might have been Carl Hubbell (my memory fails 
me) who won 24 in a row over a strectch of two years. The season recored for 
most consecutive wins by a pitcher is 16 by someone else.

					Sincerely yours,

					Thomas R. Kettler "Expos Fanatic"
From: re4@prism.gatech.EDU (RUSSELL EARNEST)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Baseball Czar Needed!!
Summary: Rethink this one.
Date: 10 Sep 92 12:33:21 GMT
Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology

In article <1992Sep9.202109.8111@ucsu.Colorado.EDU>, wilbanks@spot.Colorado.EDU (Dylan the Wonder Pup!) writes:
> Congress to step in  
>                                                       fair and impartial

I hope you don't mind that I've stripped your argument down to it's basic flaw.

1.  Congress has important work to do.

2.  It's not doing that work very well.

3.  Fair and Impartial got run off Capitol hill years ago.

I would think the players would be bargaining for a voice in who the
Commissioner is and what his powers should be.  But let's not get the 
government involved even if it costs a lock out or strike.


-- 
"I can't understand it.  Everybody I know needs what I'm selling." - Calvin
 - RUSSELL EARNEST     Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
uucp: ...!{allegra,amd,hplabs,seismo,ut-ngp}!gatech!prism!re4
ARPA: re4@prism.gatech.edu
From: twhite@mozart.amd.com (Tom White)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Stupid Injuries
Date: 12 Sep 92 05:17:00 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc.; Austin, Texas

In article <1992Sep11.194939.29973@engage.pko.dec.com> kuras@aiag.enet.dec.com () writes:
>
>Then there was Wade Boggs, who missed some games due to a pulled muscle
>in his rib cage (I think), while trying to take off his cowboy boots in
>his hotel room.
>
>Don't flame me if I'm wrong here, but I think it was in Anaheim at the
>height of Margogate.

   He also fell out of his jeep one spring training a few years ago.

   Who was the Blue Jay who banged himself up while dreaming of spiders?

--
 Thomas White          | Gimme |  I think it's a fallacy that taste bottoms out.
 Austin, Texas         | Three |    --Calvin   
 (with the ankle cast) | Steps |  
 twhite@mozart.amd.com |       | 
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball