HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: wood@siemens.com. (Jim Wood)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Vacation
Date: 3 Sep 92 14:20:01 GMT

anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson) writes:

>I need some time off from this.  I've been sick (I guess I'm
>getting better) and, to be candid, I've been increasingly
>despondent ...

You take care of yourself, Jess, and get plenty of rest and
relaxation.

>I will be in California for Rob's memorial, arriving on the
>25th and returning on the 28th ...

David & I have a weekend booked similarly to yours.  We'll be
visiting friends on Friday and Sunday.  I'll be looking forward
to meeting you very much.

Love,
Jim

--
Jim Wood [jwood@siemens.siemens.com] (609) 734-3643
"Rise up on the wings of eagles, and two step among the stars.
 You are not forgotten.  Your smile will echo forever."
   -- Ryerson Schwark, to my friend Rob Bernardo.
From: tovah@panix.com (Tovah Hollander)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: "fuck"
Date: 31 Aug 92 16:11:08 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Unix & Internet, NYC

Paul Wallich writes:
>Not to intrude with a nit, but not that long ago I seem to have
>heard the sentence "Fuck me slowly with a chainsaw."

Actually, it was "gently" (from the film HEATHERS).
-- 
Tovah Hollander
tovah@panix.com -or- tovah@onion.salad.mssm.edu
From: drp@dosbears.UUCP (David R. Preston)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Guess my age and win a valuable prize!
Date: 28 Aug 92 23:13:20 GMT
Reply-To: drp@dosbears.uucp
Organization: DosBears

In article <1992Aug24.010207.26812@spdcc.com> dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer) writes:
>People who are told they look considerably younger than their chronological
>age usually don't; that is, not completely.  Instead, the judge is confronted
>with a collection of attributes which don't completely jibe.

People have thought that I was in my mid to late 20s ever since I was
16, just because of the beard and glasses. Now that I am that old, maybe
I should try contacts and a razor :-) People already think my cuddle-bear,
who has salt'n'pepper hair (all over his body :-), is my father; maybe
I could make them think he's my grandfather.....

--
         David R. Preston   drp@dosbears.uucp dosbears@netcom.com
              Information gladly given but safety requires
               the avoidance of unnecessary conversation.
            D. R. Preston 584 Castro St. #614 SF CA 94114 USA
From: randyc@autodesk.com (Randy Clark)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Markus Goes Amerika - A Travelogue (Part 3 of 4)
Date: 28 Aug 92 01:14:11 GMT
Organization: Autodesk, Inc., Sausalito, CA


In article <1992Aug25.004941.12733@macc.wisc.edu> anderson@macc.wisc.edu
(Jess Anderson) writes [regarding Markus's US journey]:
>
>But didn't they go swimming at Santa Cruz, and isn't the
>water temp there more like 50F?

	If you go swimming in Monterey Bay in summertime,
	the top four feet of water are often warmed by
	the sun to a tolerable temperature (70 (F) or so).

	If you go swimming at the beaches along the ocean,
	you're out of your mind -- not only is it cold, as
	you say, but the surf is unbelievably dangerous.

	Besides, there are more interesting things to watch
	and do along the ocean, if you go to the right beaches
	(Moi?  I would *never* <grin>).

	-R


--
There is a sad gaiety in our love, and though we have more wit
than Sunday lovers by the water's edge, our wit attracts misfortune.
							-- Genet
Randy Clark			{}!autodesk.com!randyc
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: jfh@netcom.com (Jack Hamilton)
Subject: Re: sexuality as a private matter
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 92 03:51:45 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)

In article <1992Aug29.165716.11193@panix.com> mara@panix.com (Mara Chibnik) 
writes:
>At that time I wouldn't think of a
>motss pair as a couple unless something else about them proclaimed
>them either to be a couple or proclaimed them (or one of them) to be
>gay-- hand holdings, pink triangles, explicit tee shirts-- some
>index. 

This is a sad commentary on racism in American, but whenever I see a black
man and a white man walking together outside a business context, I assume
that they are gay.  Similarly with a white woman and a black woman.  I
simply don't see many non-gay non-business b/w friends, whereas it's not
uncommon in the gay/lesbian community (not necessarily sleeping together,
just being social).  

I don't assume the same thing about other ethnic groups; that is, I don't
assume that a chinese-american man and a white white man walking together
are gay. 

This may be racism on my part, but I think it's empirically justified.  Any
opinions on this one way or the other?  I assume that this varies according
to the part of the country you're in.  Does it? 


-- 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Jack Hamilton   jfh@netcom.com   P. O. Box 281107   SF, CA   94128-1107
From: drp@dosbears.UUCP (David R. Preston)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Mighty Real associations, was: musical finale
Date: 28 Aug 92 22:42:07 GMT
Reply-To: drp@dosbears.uucp
Organization: DosBears

In article <Aug.24.16.27.13.1992.14375@math.rutgers.edu> bgonzal@math.rutgers.edu (Bil Gonzalez) writes:
>In article <l9icjmINN7lt@mizar.usc.edu>, adolphso@mizar.usc.edu (adolphson) writes:
>> > I dread what _The Mayor of Castro Street_ will do to his memory.]
>> 
>> Who's playing Harvey Milk?  Michael Douglas?  <Shudder>
>
>The last thing I heard was that it would definitely be Robin Williams
>- he's signed.  It will NOT be directed by Oliver Stone.

But it will be produced by Stone, right?

  Rumors are
>Penny Marshall or Jonathan Demme, neither of which would be my
>immediate choice.

I thought they had decided on Gus van Sant, but were waiting for
him to finish "Even Cowgirls get the Blues"?

--
         David R. Preston   drp@dosbears.uucp dosbears@netcom.com
              Information gladly given but safety requires
               the avoidance of unnecessary conversation.
            D. R. Preston 584 Castro St. #614 SF CA 94114 USA
From: nelson@reed.edu (Nelson Minar)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Publicity
Date: 2 Sep 92 16:58:30 GMT
Article-I.D.: reed.1992Sep2.165830.1150
Organization: Reed College, Portland, OR

Wow, I've gotten angry enough to actually swear. Matthew Melmon, you
are a fucking idiot.

In article <71917@apple.Apple.COM> mattm@Apple.COM (Matthew Melmon) writes:
>People, it's nice to think we're fearsome, terror causing
>monstrosities, but the 'straight' community does not spend it's every
>waking hour worrying about 'them damn homosexuals.'  In fact, it
>couldn't care less about our existence.  The anti-GLB stuff is a
>smokescreen.  Every election, there's a *them* - and we're *them*
>this year.

You don't get it, do you? Are you completely ignorant of queer related
politics?

Why don't you come to Oregon this year? Come here before November,
mind you. Come work with us to stop Measure 9. Then tell me that "the
anti-GLB stuff is a smokescreen".

And it's not just some crazy bunch of loonies on the far right, the
OCA. They're getting pandered to by the Republican party. The bigtime
players in the Republican Party kissed Mabon's ass hard enough last
month that the OCA withdrew their opposition candidate to Packwood.
Can you spell concessions?

And this is what was going on at the RNC. The Republican Party thought
that "family values" was an issue that the electorate cared about,
cared about enough that they could get votes. They get this impression
from groups like the CFV and the OCA. When the Republicans embrace the
OCA agenda, the OCA is legitimized.

Are you so busy explaining why you shouldn't feel guilty for voting
Republican that you have lost all sense? Don't you get it? The
Republican party are our *enemies*. They always have been, and they
are our enemies now more than ever. Pat Buchanan said it first - we're
at war.
-- 
                __
nelson@reed.edu \/   Delicious & Nutritious breakfast cereals shot from guns!
From: bfbear@penn.Gwinnett.COM (Penn Collins)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Beyond GAY and LESBIAN
Date: 26 Aug 92 03:12:28 GMT

grady@btr.BTR.COM (Grady Ward  grady@btr.com) writes:

> Kelley Miller (ae642@yfn.ysu.edu ) writes:                 
> 
> "Guess now we're gonna have to start a group called soc.atmahwb*
> 
> *Anything That Moves And Has Warm Blood

well, there IS a wonderful magazine (put out by the folks that produce
Frighten the Horses) for the bisexual community called
"Anything That Moves"

let me know if you need a copy....
Penn, the mag-freak
From: adolphso@mizar.usc.edu (adolphson)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Insults
Date: 26 Aug 1992 02:33:14 -0700
Organization: One Fed-Up-to-Here Faggot, Inc.
NNTP-Posting-Host: mizar.usc.edu

In article <4866@news.duke.edu> John_Graves@cellbio.duke.edu writes:
> In article <1992Aug24.203024.21632@macc.wisc.edu> 
> anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson) writes:
> >In article <l9iektINN8gf@mizar.usc.edu>
> >adolphso@mizar.usc.edu (adolphson) writes:
[...]
> >>I'm glad we've refrained from perpetuating "collective
> >>self-hatred" in our dealings with Sargon the Butch.  (And
> >>I'll let you reflect on and apply the beginning of the
> >>quoted material however you wish.)
> >
> >What a *good* idea!  I can readily imagine getting a gander
> >at this self-nominated paragon of accomodation with the
> >enemy and thinking, "Butch?!?  Who *does* he think he's
> >kidding?!"  Those ones with the persecution complexes are
> >always the last to know.
>
> Enemy, who's the enemy.

Homophobes and anyone who helps perpetuate the homophobia
in our culture.

> If we're talking about homophobes, then as Pogo was made say,
> "We have met the enemy and he is us."

Bullshit.

> Internalized homophobia is tenacious.  Bob is just exhibiting one form of it.

And he has proved himself to be beyond help.

[...]
> I don't think that any of these groups should be seen as the enemy.  
> The enemy are those persons who use the fear of difference to control.  

They are *an* enemy.

> Bob is just as much manipulated as poor whites who were taught to 
> treat blacks poorly.  

Give me a fuckin' break.  I hold everyone individually responsible
for his/her attitudes and behavior and I don't give a flying fuck
what their background is.  A racist is a racist is a racist.  I
don't give a shit for the racist's motivations for his/her racism.
A homophobe is a homophobe is homophobe...

> We do our cause a disservice by taking a personal view of heterosexism 
> and homophobia instead of helping those who come to us with sincere 
> differences but who are within our community or wish to be.

Disservice?  How?  I see no reason why I should embrace any slug
off the street just because he's gay.  I don't owe homophobes,
straight *or* gay, anything.

> We need to focus more on the roles of the Bushes and the religious 
> leaders who have power influence and explain over and over again the 
> dynamics of self-hatred and internalized homophobia. 

Yeah, well, who says we're *not* doing that?

> Explanation and education, not insult and ostracism should be the 
> order of the day.

Fuck off, asshole.

Arne

Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: bobsarv@microsoft.com (Bob Sarver)
Subject: Re: Gay Homophobia (was Re: Too straight looking to be gay???) (was re: UNGAY GAY)
Date: 31 Aug 92 19:15:06 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corp.



(rogerk)
/What hypocrisy?  I see a simple disagreement.  Arne disapproves of their
/choice, thinks them cowards, but states their right to choose it.  He
/also thinks you're wrong about "flamboyant activity"... he doesn't argue
/with your right to an opinion; he simply thinks it's full of shit.


It looked like judgement to me.  Based upon the words, and the way
he was responding to Graves.  

If it was truly just an expression of personal thought, then I retract
my statement.
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: katbea@auto-trol.com (Kathy Beatty)
Subject: Re: What it all means
Organization: Auto-trol Technology Corporation -- Denver, Colorado
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL3
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 22:57:55 GMT

nelson@reed.edu (Nelson Minar) writes:
: In article <1992Sep1.174209.7129@osf.org> coren@osf.org (Robert Coren) writes:
: >In the middle of a spurt, er, a torrent, I mean a burst, uh, flood,
: >rush? [*] of postings, nelson@reed.edu (Nelson Minar) writes:
: >> I no longer love your mouth
: >> I no longer love your eyes
: >[etc.]
: >...and I just sort of wondered, y'know, what it was, and why it was here.
: 
: I suppose I should explain.
: 
: I am sick to death of the Bob Sarver / soc.motss flames. I'm
: particularly tired of Bob and Jess baiting each other left and right.

Uh, I believe that Bob and Jess were more likely baiting each other
right and left.


Kathy
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: jns@wam.umd.edu (J. N. Shaumeyer)
Subject: Re: soc.motss statistics for August 1992
Organization: Militant Homosexual Lobby, Gay Lifestyle, Inc.
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 08:27:28 GMT

Robert Coren (coren@osf.org), minimalist:
 
> ~ .

I rather like it.  It evokes the dada
atmosphere that Nelson was trying to 
create so well.  [So, the subject line
isn't the one I should really be writing
under, but isn't it about time that
Jimmy get a shot at his own statistics?]

Nelson get's the gold star for creative
postidigitation this time, I think; I've
always liked the small-quote approach to
stream-of-queer soc.motssing.  [I thought
the intent quite evident.]

My problem is that, when Nelson 
(nelson@reed.edu) wrote:

> dada

all that came to mind for me was John
Dorrance.

I hoped for inspiration when Melinda
(shore@dinah.tc.cornel.edu) wrote:

> boob

but it's hard to keep abreast of things.

[Besides, arnold, cunning-linguist and
 fellow-eater that he is, already sucked
 that one dry.]

Alas, in the end, I can't help Robert with
his attributional woes either as he looked
for the word to describe Nelson's.... all
that came to mind was 'mango cornucopia',
but that's a slippery slope down which I'd
best not step.

--jns
From: dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: musical finale
Date: 28 Aug 92 16:34:25 GMT
Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting, Cambridge MA

In article <1992Aug28.083627.4038@quantime.co.uk> roger@quantime.co.uk (Roger Phillips) writes:
>Well, I've been out and bought the Durufle Requiem,
>and it's a little, um, *lush* for my tastes
>(but I'm listening to it more, so I get used to it).

There are parts of the Durufle Requiem which border on the embarassingly
bombastic, particularly the _Hosanna in excelsis_ from the Sanctus and
the _Dies Irae_, but they're overshadowed by Durufle's overall sublime,
sensitive and lyrical exploitation of themes from the Gregorian Requiem
Mass.  Now, Gregorian Chant is as austere as late 19th c./early 20th c.
French organ music (Durufle's heritage) is "tarted up", so it's even more
remarkable how organic and wholly consistent a creation his Requiem is.

A much more modest set of pieces which might also be of interest to
anyone who enjoys his Requiem is his _Four Motets on Gregorian Themes_.
Really glorious.  The _Ubi Caritas_ makes me cry.

>I think Stravinsky's Symphony of Psalms suits me better.
>(There's a good exercise for your lisp.)

That's a wonderful piece, too.  Or his piece dedicated to the city of
Venice--why am I forgetting its name??  (It had his experiment with
serialism in the central aria for tenor: "Surge Aquilo".)


-- 
Steve Dyer
dyer@ursa-major.spdcc.com aka {ima,harvard,rayssd,linus,m2c}!spdcc!dyer
From: sfsmith@pennsas.upenn.edu (Sandy F. Smith, Jr.)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: eating at Furr's
Date: 3 Sep 92 21:03:25 GMT
Organization: University of Pennsylvania

In article <lachcrINNr1m@mizar.usc.edu>, adolphso@mizar.usc.edu (adolphson) writes:
> 
> I thought this was going to be about *Furr's* and their
> yummy-scrumptious, diabetic-shock-inducing Millionaire Pie.
> But no, it's about beards.

So *tell me* about this pie already.  By the time I left KC, Furr -- er,
*Furr's* hadn't spread above Arkansas, and all we have to eat here is that
boring old nouvelle Italian (or was that nouvelle Afghan?) cuisine.

And how does it look sticking to one's mustache?

**************************************************************************
Sandy F. Smith, Jr. ____________________________ sfsmith@pennsas.upenn.edu
Graduate Division, School of Arts and Sciences, University of Pennsylvania
16 College Hall, Philadelphia, PA 19104-6378.  (Opinions mine, not Penn's)
 
"The God I serve don't make no trash!"
      -- Rev. Emanuel Cleaver, Mayor, City of Kansas City, Mo.
From: nelson@reed.edu (Nelson Minar)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Multi-Index Characterization (Re: your sexuality as an organism)
Date: 3 Sep 92 04:30:07 GMT
Article-I.D.: reed.1992Sep3.043007.9290
Organization: Reed College, Portland, OR

In article <1992Sep3.033510.29592@athena.mit.edu> max@athena.mit.edu (Max Meredith Vasilatos) writes:
>Tribadism... involves one woman lying atop the other, followed by up
>and down rhythmic movements to stimulate the clitoris of each. ...
>takes time to master.

wow, that sounds like fun. How do I practice (*)?

Oh, damn, I don't have the right equipment. Sigh.. so what's it called
when two men rub their cocks between their bellies? That never seemed
to take much "time to master" to me. Is there a different word when
there's a hand in their squeezing the two together, too?

Sex word of the day:
manustupration

(*) I almost wrote "practize" as a joke on British spellings, but it
looked dumb. Then I looked it up, and found that "practice" and
"practise" are both acceptable. ARGH.
-- 
                __
nelson@reed.edu \/       This is the time, and this is the record of the time
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: rjwill6@PacBell.COM (Rod Williams)
Subject: Re: Stimulating Photos
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Francisco
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 01:26:09 GMT

> nelson@reed.edu (Nelson Minar) writes:

>I don't think that Hockney and Geldzahler have been lovers, but I
>could easily be wrong. I'm pretty sure Hockey is queer - is Geldzahler?

Yes.  He and Hockney have been friends at least since the
60s -- Hockney has painted and drawn him many times.

You might want to look out for a strange but fascinating
film, "A Bigger Splash" -- made around 1974 -- "starring"
Hockney, numerous friends, artistic inspirations and former
lovers, and recreating events in his life from several years
before.  It also tried, with mixed success, to relate those
events to the subjects of some of his more famous paintings.
One male-male sex scene that made me consider that perhaps
I wasn't heterosexual...
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
rod williams -=- pacific bell -=- san francisco -=- rjwill6@pacbell.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: bobsarv@microsoft.com (Bob Sarver)
Subject: Re: Too straight looking to be gay??? (was re: UNGAY GAY)
Date: 28 Aug 92 03:35:52 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corp.



(vanyel)
/The difference between a "good" and a "bad" messenger is, I think, a bit
/more subjective than it seems, Bob.  

Of course; we can't be all things to all people.  That's not realistic.



(vanyel)
/It isn't merely baiting, Bob; your private discussions with me have shown
/that you have some sincere motivations that are, to an extent
/laudable--namely the creation of role models who don't fit the traditional
/stereotypes, to show the "butch" gays that they don't have to hide.

/The problem, however, is that your public discussions continually have the
/air of someone trying to force a particular behavior out of a group of
/people to whose collective personality such behavior isn't a part.  

That is because it is easier to discuss this subject one-on-one.  It 
is also easier to do it with someone who makes an honest attempt at
reason, analysis, and education (as you do). And, of course, it is also 
easier to do this when the venom is absent.  



(vanyel)
/Do you
/honestly think that any of us here ascribe to the notion that all
/out-of-the-closet gays must be nelly?  In truth, a great deal probably
/aren't.

No, of course not.  You are correct on both points.



>>I have met many gay men, handsome, masculine, and closeted--
>(elf)                                                  
>/   Your clue word for the day.
>My clue word?  Let's use your words to explain *why* these guys are 
>closeted:
>   "Leathermen like me, Bears, Queens, Nellies, Camps, Drag Queens. . ."

/(vanyel)
/That's not an explanation, Bob.  It's an *excuse*.  What's more, it's an
/excuse to which *you* subscribe.  

What's the difference between a reason and an excuse, Alan?  A reason
is a justification that you agree with, while an excuse is one that you
*don't* agree with?

I believe these people when they tell me, "I don't want to come out if
it means being associated with xxx".  You may think their reason is
bad, but I believe that they are telling me the truth when they offer
this reason.  


(vanyel)
/What's the next excuse, Bob?  Even supposing you could somehow wipe these
/"negative stereotypes" off the face of Earth, what will the next excuse be
/for the closeted?  The only enemies we face are fear, prejudice, and
/misunderstanding, and from what I see your comments on here feed all
/three.

So, the gay community NEVER does anything wrong, NEVER does anything
counter-productive, and NEVER commits any act that works against its
stated goals?  Alan, be realistic:  is there any group (or any
person) so perfect, that their actions are never above review?

To put it another way:  can you name two or three things that the
gay community *should* be doing to help foster understanding and
bring more people out?  Or do you believe that the maximum effort
is being expended now, and all the current tactics are the absolute
best ones?
From: Albert-Lunde@nwu.edu (Albert Lunde)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: need good bible arguments AGAINST the anti-gay passages
Date: 24 Aug 92 03:20:52 GMT
Reply-To: Albert-Lunde@nwu.edu (Albert Lunde)
Followup-To: soc.motss
Organization: Ministry of Silly Walks
Originator: lunde@casbah.acns.nwu.edu

In article <BtAr91.Ayn@solbourne.com> gerber@solbourne.com (Andrew Gerber) writes:
>
>A flame war is starting on local regional newsgroups; I was wondering
>if anyone had good arguments against the typically used anti-gay
>passages in the Bible online which they could send me.  [Like how the
>translation from the latin depends on the conservatism of the
>theologean, etc]
>
The follow-ups already have covered the basic arguments against the
usual "proof-texts".  I'm offering a few books for those who want
more detailed references.

"Gay/Lesbian Liberation: A Biblical Persepective" by George R. Edwards
- 1884

This summarizes pro-gay positions by various theologians and biblical 
scholars, with lots of footnotes and academic detail.

"Living In Sin: A Bishop Rethinks Human Sexuality" by John Shelby Spong
- 1991

This re-examines homosexuality and sexuality ingeneral, in a more
popular style.  About a third of the book covers academic issues.

"Is the Homosexual My Neighbor?: Another Christian View"
by Letha Scanzoni & Virginia Ramey Mollenkott - 1978

This is a shorter "primer" on pro-gay theology from a biblical
evangelical christian view.

-- 
 Albert Lunde         | Interfaith  |     *Y*Y*      "A branch on the
 Albert-Lunde@nwu.edu |  Bisexual   |      *Y*        tree of life"
 alunde@nuacvm.bitnet |  Feminist   |.......|.........................