From: cdm@pmafire.inel.gov (Dale Cook)
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 92 17:11:24 GMT
Organization: WINCO
Subject: Re: The Irony of the Abortion Issue
Summary: 
Followup-To: 
Organization: WINCO
Keywords: 

In article <1992Sep25.194629.12162@anasazi.com> best@anasazi.com (Mike Best) writes:
>In article <1992Sep24.202741.19551@pmafire.inel.gov> cdm@pmafire.inel.gov (Dale Cook) writes:
>>In article <1992Sep24.013758.27703@versyss.com> keithd@versyss.UUCP (Keith Doyle) writes:
>>>Regardless of whether you are pro-life or pro-choice, you end up having
>>>to defend an uncomfortable position.  
>>
>>I diasgree.  The person in the uncomfortable position is the woman who has
>>to make the decision.  It's relatively easy to sit back and flame away at
>>the net without having been in a position where one might have to consider
>>an abortion as an option.
>
>I don't believe that you've considered this angle, let me specify..
>
>The father is also (potentially) in an uncomfortable postion for the very
>reason that should the woman _choose_ to have the child then he is partially
>responsible for the care of the child.  You have claimed that men are totally
>removed from the process thus they have no right to decide the fate of the
>child.  Your point would be more valid if the father had absolutely no
>responsibility for the child after birth (or during pregnancy).

I have considered this angle.  Granted, I think the woman involved *should*
consider the father's opinion, but ultimately, the *woman* must make the
decision.  It's *her* body, not his.  Men have a right to offer their 
opinion, but no more.  It is up to the woman to *decide* what course of
action to take.  If she wants to honor the father's wishes, that is her
decision.  I disagree with your assertion that the father should either
have control of the process or no responsibility.
>
>Generally, your point sounds like women being able to "have their cake
>and eat it too".  That is, they want the right to abort the child without
>interference by the father while at the same time they want the option 
>to make the father responsible for bringing up the child if it is born.
>There is little justice in that philosophy.

That is exactly my philosophy.  You talk of justice.  Where is the justice
in the woman having to be the one to bear children?  If life were just,
then any case where the man wanted the child carried to term, *he* would
become the pregnant one.  Life ain't fair, my friend.  Usually, the woman
gets to bear the brunt of this unfairness.  Here is a case where the tables
are turned, and sure enough, there are a significant number of men who 
snivel about "fairness".  Sounds to me like these men are the ones who 
want their cake and get to eat it too.  The unfair thing here is that the
woman should get to choose.  If she chooses to bear the child, the man is
obliged to support it.  
>
>>Actually, the irony of the abortion issue is ...
>
>Nice try but way off.  A Conservative such as myself would argue that
>the unborn do not have "group rights" - there is no such thing as a group
>life for example.  The unborn, if human, have the same natural rights that
>every other _individual_ has (i.e. the right to life).  Group rights imply
>that group X has rights which differ from the rest of us and that are 
>rights defined by the Government not by the nature of man.  There is only
>one group, humans.

Point taken.  I agree.
>
>By the way, that Pro-choice people elevate the pseudo-right to "choose"
>over the natural right to life seems awkward to me.  I understand the
>utility of an abortion but doesn't it leave a bad taste in your mouth?
>(sorry, bad phrase :))

Whether or not abortion leaves a bad taste in my mouth is irrelevant.
It's not my decision to make.  A person has a natural right to life.  
Prove to me that an "unborn baby" is a *person* (not just human - I'll
grant you that it's human) and I'll change my mind.
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...Dale Cook    "There is no animal so spooky as the True Believer."
                   ---Edward Abbey
The opinions are mine only (i.e., they are NOT my employer's)
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