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Date:         Wed, 30 Sep 1992 12:20:34 -0700
From:         "(MARK DRAKE)" <DRAKE@ASUCHM.LA.ASU.EDU>
Subject:      Re: DEATH PENALTY- for or against?

>      If the death penalty was enforce today, the way it was in the
>      OT times, do you think we would have as much crime and adultery   -------
>      today?                                                            .com

This brings to mind that Jesus seems not to have carried out the execution
required by the Law when he did not stone, or advocate stoning, the
woman caught in adultry.

Like many others, my mind is not decided on this issue.  Since capitol
punishment was part of the Law given to Israel, I do not think that it
is immoral.  However, I think I will follow Jesus' example.  I would
be very hesitant to take a life that was given by God.

Mark
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Date:         Mon, 28 Sep 1992 11:53:55 CST
From:         A16905@ITESO.BITNET
Subject: Re: New User

Wellcome Noel.

Shalom,

Memo.
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Date:         Wed, 30 Sep 1992 11:48:55 CST
From:         A16905@ITESO.BITNET
Subject: Re: Satan Who is this guy ?

So Ian,

You say that Satan is not diverse from human nature, it is a part of our
selves ?

Shalom,
Memo.
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Date:         Wed, 30 Sep 1992 15:59:01 CDT
From:         Tom Brewer <NOTTMB@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Test

test 2
From: U952020@RUTADMIN.BITNET (Carl A. Lahetta)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Ian & the Death Penalty & Forgiveness
Date: 29 Sep 92 16:46:00 GMT
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Ian,
   Here's a mental exercise for you.

1. God know's the point in time when a person dies.
2. Therefore God will give the person an opportunity for
   salvation before they die.
3. Therefore, if someone is to be executed then God knew when they
   were going to die and offered salvation to them.
4. If you assert that execution would possibly prevent a prisoner
   from gaining salvation, then point #2 is false.
5. If an execution would prevent someone from salvation, then what
   about the other causes of death.  Did God present his salvation
   to those who died an "untimely death"?


This isn't suppose to sway your opinion on killing crooks, but I just
wondered if the statement  about salvation in this post matched up
with the rest of your beliefs.  Do you know what I mean?


Carl----------+
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Date:         Mon, 28 Sep 1992 22:12:33 EDT
From:         Lon Mendelsohn <LMENDELS@CMS.CC.WAYNE.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Rush, a Christian?

Kerry,

No, that's not what I meant.  Mr. Limbaugh comes off as a conservative,
IMHO, because that's how he generates his support.  Whether he really is
one or not is anyone's guess.  He reminds of another "conservative"
humorist/talk show host who was popular several years ago by the name
of Mort Downey, who also made extensive use of insult and general nastiness
as a tool to enhance his own popularity.

As for his alleged support of Christians and Christianity, that by no means
demonstrates that he is a Christian.  All it shows is that he is promoting
one aspect of the conservative agenda, which may or may not be the Christian
agenda.  Additionally, there are many Christians (myself included) who
support items on the liberal agenda.  Would Mr. Limbaugh support our
Christian cnviction to do so?  Somehow, I doubt it.

Shalom,

Lon Mendelsohn
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Date:         Fri, 2 Oct 1992 09:08:49 PDT
From:         ng910@TWINS.PNL.GOV
Subject:      Re: Scriptures versus Rome

Eric,

	On points one and two of your previous post - I am not out to
prove or disprove the Catholic religion.  I am simply saying that it
is a construct of men - as all other churches are a construct of men.

	I make no claim to be fully grounded in scriptures, and on that
point I should learn to follow Proverbs and "act like a man who knows
more than he says."  I except your rebuke and will study it somemore.

	I do firmly believe, however, that the Church that Christ
spoke of, and was repeated by Paul, Peter, John, et al., was not
a single religious group, but rather the whole body of believing
Christians.  This is what I ment by Jesus Christ is not Religion.
I can be religious about cigerettes, or coffee, or sunday service -
religious is defined as "adhearing to or manifesting piousness"  there
are a multitude of things we may be religious about - but it is only
being religious towards Christ that counts!  Any doctrine contrived of
man is going to be in error, and to assume (and here I may be wrong,
but I have no learning to disprove this point) that any one Christian
religion is not contrived of man and all others are seems to defy
logic.

	I feel that God, not man, allows for the success of these Christian
religions, and that they exist because not any one church (notice the little
'c') or doctrine can hold all of the manifestations of an Infinite God,
and thus an Infinite Church.

Your Brother in Christ

Dave
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Date:         Fri, 2 Oct 1992 07:54:10 MST
From:         Madge McBurney <ISPMOM@ASUACAD.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: I'm back

On Fri, 2 Oct 1992 09:33:53 CDT <JRALLS@TRINITY> said:

>Dear listfolk,
>
>I'm really happy to be able to get mail from Christia again.
>While off the net I received a promotion within my department
>so I am learning many new things but I have more time to be on the
>terminal and have a different supervisor who doesn't have a
>problem with email like my previous one.

Welcome back JoEllen and congratulations on your promotion!!
Thanks also for the update on Robin.

Madge McBurney
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From: timk@world.std.com (Tim King)
Subject: Re: males vs females and God
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1992 17:08:12 GMT

Noel Estabrook writes in response to Ian's comment:

>>what is in effect a love affair with a man! Jesus is our saviour, our
>>brother, our Lord, but also our HUSBAND! he is our lover..

>Only in a spiritual sense.  I don't believe in a physical sense.  In heaven,
>none will be given in marriage and so sexual relations won't exist.  I think
>we are Christ's bride only in a spiritual sense that we will have perfect
>Spiritual union with Him.

The church is the bride of Christ.  (John 3:29; 2 Cor 11:2; Rev 21:2)  This
is, of course, not meant in a physical sense, as Noel pointed out.  However,
the love of God for His people is the same love that should be between a
husband and wife.  (Eph 5:25-33)  This love is the greek word agapao, agape
love, which is deliberate, unconditional love.  In other words, the
relationship between Christ and his church is the same relationship that
should be between a husband and his wife.

A while ago I summarized what was, IMO, a very good sermon on Eph 5:21-33.
I will happy to send it out to anyone who asks, and I will probably submit
to the christia archives as well (if I can figure out how to work this
thing :-).

Have a nice day!
-TimK
-- 
Tim King              <>  |  After we have eliminated all other answers,
24 Myrtle Street       |  |  the one that remains, however improbable it
Dedham, MA 02026     < |  |  may be, must be correct.
timk@world.std.com    \|  |                    -Leonard Nimoy as Mr. Spock
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Date:         Mon, 28 Sep 1992 09:12:54 -0400
Reply-To:     ewanco@kalvin.enet.dec.com
From:         Eric James Ewanco <eje@IRENAEUS.MLO.DEC.COM>
Subject:      Re: use of proof-texts

Excerpts from christia: 28-Sep-92 use of proof-texts JEK@NIHCU.BITNET (787)

>  > There are references in the New Testament to them (I found some
>  > last night), even by Jesus. There are prophecies in them
>  > referring to Jesus.

> It would advance the discussion if listmembers, instead of saying, "I
> have found a text which supports my position," would say something like,
> "I believe that Second Hezekiah, chapter 14, verses 8 and 9, supports my
> position, and here's why."

>  Yours,
>  James Kiefer

well, slow down, I haven't gotten around to reading all the
cross-references yet! I will post the references once I compile them,
and that will take some time.  I am currently scanning every
cross-references in my Catholic Bible to the Deuterocanonical books;
eliminating those that also refer to protocanonical books; following
each reference and eliminating those references that are a little
far-fetched (and the duplicates).  So far I'm only on Mark.

Eric
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Date:         Fri, 2 Oct 1992 09:11:12 EST
From:         carol nemec <YA67@FERRIS.BITNET>
Subject:      faith and works

A thought on the discussion of faith and works, by William
Booth, quoted in Christianity today.  From _ The Founder's
Messages to Soldiers _.

Walking on two feet

Faith and works should travel side by side, step answering to step,
like the legs of men walking.  First faith, and then works; and then
faith again, and then works again -- until you can scarcely distinguish
which is the one and which is the other.



My thoughts:  Faith without works is dead faith; but there are
many 'good' people going to hell.

Carol Nemec
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Mon, 5 Oct 1992 13:14:00 GMT
From:         Z_STAFF_CL@SOUTHAMPTON-INSTITUTE.AC.UK
Subject:      Newsletter discovered

LIFE - an email Christian newsletter

I came across this one by accident.  The first edition was LIFE
in the computer era.  It included a short bible study, poetry, a
testimony and some bible background information.  They hope
to include book and software reviews, social comments nd
other articles in the future.

The next edition LIFE in hard times is due out soon.  I
suggest everyone take a look.

LIFE is available from

tony.mcgregor@rdt.monash.edu.au

a second address is given as an alternative if you have
problems of bandor@byerley.rdt.monash.edu.au


Carol A Long,  Southampton Institute of Higher Education, England
        email     :  Z_STAFF_CL@UK.AC.SOUTHAMPTON-INSTITUTE
DISCLAIMER - merely musings unless otherwise stated.
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Date:         Mon, 28 Sep 1992 07:37:31 CDT
From:         Jesse Carnes <NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: That P' word again
              25 Sep 1992 07:46:12 -0500 from <BKCOBB@LIFE.UAMS.EDU>

Dear Brian ;

Just a short post on all of this.

2 Cor.2 says that only the Spiritual man can receive the things of God,
because they are spiritually discerned.  The unregenerate man cannot
receive things without the presence of the Holy Spirit and the text makes
that clear deliniation ... the man WITH the Spirit and the man WITHOUT.
Such is a regenerate versus unregenerate man.

If an unregenerate man CANNOT receive the things of God, he cannot WILL
to do so by sheer will power.  It will be of no avail without Divine
intervention ... that is without God's Grace unto Salvation.

So, putting the horse in FRONT of the cart, we must be MADE alive by the
Lord before we can choose to be converted ... that is have a change of mind
toward.
The desire to change is subsequent to God making a person alive and that is
subsequent to hearing or reading then understanding then believing the Gospel.



Jesse Carnes
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Sun, 4 Oct 1992 23:53:46 EDT
From:         JEK@NIHCU.BITNET
Subject:      Francis of Assisi (4 Oct 1226)

FRANCIS OF ASSISI, FRIAR (4 OCT 1226)

Francis was born in 1182, the son of a wealthy merchant. His early
years were frivolous, but being moved to seek to do the will of God,
he undertook a life of poverty. He renounced all material
possessions, and devoted himself to serving the poor. In 1210 the
Pope authorized the forming of the Order of Friars Minor, commonly
called the Franciscans. The order grew rapidly, but, over the
opposition of Francis, it soon abandoned his original plan of
complete poverty, both for the individual friars and for the order
as a whole. Francis died 4 October 1226.

PRAYER
   Most high, omnipotent, good Lord, grant unto thy people grace
   to renounce gladly the vanities of this world; that, following
   the way of blessed Francis, we may for love of thee delight in
   thy whole creation with perfectness of joy; through Jesus
   Christ our Lord, who liveth and reigneth with thee and the Holy
   Spirit, one God, for ever and ever.
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
From: creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Steve Creps)
Subject: Re: Confused Catholicism
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 16:54:40 GMT

In article <CHRISTIA%92100112312578@ASUACAD.BITNET> Tom Brewer <NOTTMB@LSUVM.BITNET> writes:
>>  I'd be interested in seeing the history of this church.  Where was
>> it before the Reformation?
>
>Jerusalem, Judea and unto the uttermost parts of the Earth.

   Could you recommend any good history books on this subject?

-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
Steve Creps, Indiana University
creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu
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Date:         Thu, 1 Oct 1992 16:30:23 CDT
Reply-To:     bradk%isdgsm@rtsg.mot.com
From:         "(Brad Kaiser)" <bradk%isdgsm@RTSG.MOT.COM>
Subject:      Scriptures versus Rome
              1 Oct 1992 15:59:05 CDT <9210012115.AA16692@motgate.mot.com>

Jesse Carnes writes:

>> But the issue of highest importance is the Gospel as I have said SO
>> many times and it is ROME's Gospel which differs from what Scripture
>> asserts.

>> Truthfully, blurring this Prime Directive is a serious blunder on Rome's
>> part, as well as adding "Supra-Scriptural" things.

Perhaps we disagree then. :-0

(Here I thought the Prime Directive was from Starfleet Headquarters ...)

>> I ask ... I humbly recommend to Catholics to prayerfully read the books
>> of Romans and Hebrews and compare them with what Rome OFFICIALLY teaches.

And I ask and humbly recommend to Catholics that they also listen to
the Scott Hahn tape series entitled "Bible Study on the Book of
Romans", "Calling Catholics to be 'Bible Christians' ... and vice
versa", and "Evangelizing the Baptized".  The last one particularly
discusses Hebrews, and its relationship to the Mass.  "Calling
Catholics ..." is fairly general.  Together, all three will
demonstrate the clear teaching of the Catholic Church as taught in
Romans and Hebrews.

All are available by mail from St. Joseph Communications, W. Covina,
California.

Also to be recommended are the books "Catholicism and Fundamentalism",
by Karl Keating (Ignatius Press); "Catholic and Christian" by Alan
Schreck (Servant Press, Ann Arbor, MI); and "Answering a
Fundamentalist" by Fr. Albert Nevins (Our Sunday Visitor Press,
Huntington, IN).

In Christ's Peace,

Brad Kaiser
(bradk%isdgsm@rtsg.mot.com)

	  Those who trust in Him shall understand truth,
	  and the faithful shall abide with Him in love;
	  Because grace and mercy are with His holy ones,
	  and His care is with His elect.
		    -- Wis 3:9 [NAB]
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Date:         Mon, 28 Sep 1992 14:39:36 -0400
Reply-To:     ewanco@mlo.dec.com
From:         Eric James Ewanco <eje@IRENAEUS.MLO.DEC.COM>
Subject:      Re: Purgatory: Justice or Works?

Excerpts from christia: 28-Sep-92 Purgatory: Justice or Works? Tom
Brewer@LSUVM.BITNET (1092)

> I would recommend you read Dan's most recent post on Christ's work as
> explained in Hebrews.
> Concerning your struggle: Your experience neither confirms nor denies the
> authoritative Word of God.

> I would suggest you reread Romans 5-8. Pay close attention to how the
> believer has been reconciled to God, restored to the right relationship lost
> by the first Adam in the Garden. Cross reference this with Gal 3 to see how
> the believer has also been redeemed from the law and its curse.
> The believer's struggle with sin in this life (this side of the grave) is
> dealt with by Paul in Romans 7.

This has little to do with suffering we undergo because of our sinful
nature -- the holy fire of God which burns away all the wood, hay, and
straw of our lives (1 Cor 3:21), filling up in our own flesh what is
lacking in regard to Christ's suffering (Col 1:24), and reaping the
suffering from the seeds of sin that we sow.

> All I can say here is I hope to write more later. But if Paul can be trusted,
> then believers have been saved from the wrath and anger of God. There is no
> further "purification" required for the believer. Christ has made the
> believer suitable for entrance into heaven.

Yes, but are you satisfied with "suitable"?

> When the believer dies, he will be as holy then as he can ever be
> because of the work of Christ.

God forbid if I am as holy now as I ever can be, or if when I die I can
> never grow in holiness! What a dismal promise!

> The believer will not need to be deep fried, broiled, or whatever to be
> purified. Christ has redeemed the believer from all curses.

That's not what Scripture says.  Scripture says we are made perfect
through suffering.  "Anyone who does wrong will be repaid for his wrong,
and there is no favoritism." Col 3:25. "But because of your stubbornness
and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself
for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be
revealed.  God 'will give to each person according to what he has done.'
To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and
immortaility, he will give eternal life.  But for those who are
self-seeking and who rejectr the truth and follow evel there will be
wrath and anger.  There will be trouble and distress for every human
being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; but glory,
honor, and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for
the Gentile.  For God does not show favoritism." Romans 2:5ff.
Scripture says in many places that will receive judgment according to
what we have done -- including Christians.

Eric
From: gjm11@cus.cam.ac.uk (G.J. McCaughan)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Faith and reason
Date: 6 Oct 92 02:05:53 GMT
Organization: U of Cambridge, England

Every now and then one hears a Christian talking about faith and reason,
or scripture and logic, as if the two were alternatives. It happened a day
or two ago on CHRISTIA, which is what brings it to mind now.

It is my opinion that this kind of thinking completely misses the point.
Reason and logic are not doctrines, or systems, or anything like that; they
are part of how we think. If I refuse to believe something because it
contains a contradiction, this is for the very simple reason that I am
not capable of believing a contradiction. Sometimes I may believe two
inconsistent things without noticing, but as soon as I notice ... splut.

There is nothing impious about this (at least, I don't think there is).
It's just how things are; two things which contradict each other simply
CANNOT both be true. This isn't a denial of God's omnipotence or anything;
to say "God can make X and not-X both true" is a bit like saying "God can
urble wobble glupfod" in that neither makes any sense at all, even though
they both begin with "God can".

So, what about those cases where faith and reason seem to be in conflict?
Well, generally what this means is that there is some apparent contradiction
between two passsages in the Bible, or there is a contradiction between one
passage in the Bible and our everyday observation. Reason doesn't generate
the contradictions; it's just the faculty which notices them and says that
something is amiss. We should say: There seems to be a contradiction between
such-and-such a passage and so-and-so. And then we should do our best to
figure out what's going on.

Now, people make mistakes sometimes when they try to think. And God is much
cleverer than we are, and we aren't very good at understanding how he works.
This means that sometimes there will seem to be a contradiction when in fact
there is none; perhaps the combination of God's sovereignty and our moral
responsibility is an example of this. But -- and this is the point -- if there
is a contradiction, then one of the two beliefs is wrong. If not, then there
is no problem for "reason" or "logic".

It is NOT improper to use "human reason" in trying to understand God. We have
no choice; if we try not to use logic, and to rely on faith and scripture
without it, then the result is only that we make more mistakes. Every time
you read the Bible you are thinking; you owe it to God and to yourself to
be thinking as clearly as possible. Ditto for every time you have to make
an important decision. If God had intended us to turn our brains off when
we read the Bible he wouldn't have made it so complicated!
-- 
Gareth McCaughan     Dept. of Pure Mathematics & Mathematical Statistics,
gjm11@cus.cam.ac.uk  Cambridge University, England.    [Research student]
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Date:         Fri, 2 Oct 1992 11:26:05 PDT
From:         ng910@TWINS.PNL.GOV
Subject: Re: You got me.

While Paul did not care that Christ was preached with the wrong motive, he
certainly did care if people acted with Love and Compassion.  Remember that
God's word is not corruptable, but as soon as you stop preaching God's
word and start berating people unfairly in the name of Christ, you have
stepped over a very real line.

Just a thought.

Dave
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
From: creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Steve Creps)
Subject: Re:      Confused Catholicism
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 15:51:28 GMT

In article <CHRISTIA%92093007233689@ASUACAD.BITNET> Tom Brewer <NOTTMB@LSUVM.BITNET> writes:
>"The greatest and most ancient Church known to God's people, founded and
>organized by the Father, Son and Holy Spirit at Jerusalem and spread to the
>hearts of believers everywhere, that Church which has the Word of God and
>faith which comes down to the elect after having been announced to men by
>the Prophets and Apostles. For with this Church, because of her divine
>origin, all men must agree ... and it is in her that the elect everywhere
>have maintained the Gospel of Jesus Christ."
>    ---St. Thomas, Against Catholicism, c. 1992 A.D.

   I'd be interested in seeing the history of this church.  Where was
it before the Reformation?

-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
Steve Creps, Indiana University
creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Mon, 28 Sep 1992 12:11:59 CST
From:         A16905@ITESO.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Seeking a Catholic Perspective

Sorry Bernice, but I don't think that it was what you (whoever 'you' are)
needed. I gave my personal opinion about the topic, not an official RCC
statement.


Shalom,

Memo.

PS. AMEN, Jesus is our Savior !
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