HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: revans@euclid.ucsd.edu (Ron Evans)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.arabic
Subject: Re: Resisting occupation
Date: 21 Dec 92 21:58:13 GMT
Followup-To: talk.politics.mideast

<1992Dec21.145421.11383@ncsu.edu> hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU (Brad Hernlem) writes:

>3. It is my belief that it is a fundamental right of people to resist
>the forced occupation of their land by a foreign army. 
 
>> 	Should the Kurds randomly kill Iranian soldiers until
>> 	Iranians stop occupying Kurdistan?  Yes or no?

The country of Iran has been around continuously for over 2500 years.

	Borders of Iran have changed continually since Muslim
	Arabs invaded in the 600's.  Kurds want self-determination
	in Kurdistan and have fought bitterly against Iranian
	rule.  In 1945, Iranian Kurds declared an
	independent republic called Mahabad, which only lasted
	a year.

...In my opinion, the
situation is quite different for the Palestinians. I think that there is
the difference that the Israeli government wishes to occupy Palestinian
land despite the Palestinians whereas the Iranian government would like
to hold the country together. 

	How can one acknowledge Palestinian land without
	acknowledging Kurdish land?

	The Kurds are not treated equally.  They are a powerless
	oppressed ethnic group, and they have fought for centuries
	for a Kurdish state.  Should they randomly kill
	Turkish, Iraqi, or Iranian soldiers until they are
	granted autonomy?  Or is the situation different when
	Muslims are oppressors?  
-- 
Ron Evans (revans@math.ucsd.edu)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: ldstern@rodan.acs.syr.edu (Larry Stern)
Subject: Re: Alan Stein (Was: PEACE)
Organization: Syracuse University, Syracuse, NY
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 93 07:46:30 EST

In article <4814@copper.Denver.Colorado.EDU> aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Shaqeeqa) writes:
>In article <1i064hINNg6u@life.ai.mit.edu> gwydion@hal.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Mercenary Programmer) writes:
>>Is Alan Stein a new and improved version of Ilan Rabinowitz?
>
>No, of Phil Stromer ... :-)
>
>Anisa
>
>"Glad to see that we're debating with sensible fanatics here."
>						Alan H. Stein
>

I don't know who the above-mentioned people are but I must say that I found
Mr. Stein's reply to "Re: Peace" totally inappropriate.  In that message an
Arab gentleman eloquently pleaded for peace and moderation in the Middle
East.  This voice of moderation and extension of good will is, in my opinion,
the only hope for peace, as opposed to a running debate over U.N. resolutions
and historical claims to land.  May 1993 bring us closer to a common goal.

Todah, Shokran.....

					  Larry Stern
From: ifaz706@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Democracy (was Re: american opinion)
Date: 31 Dec 92 00:43:19 GMT
Distribution: talk
Organization: University of Texas @ Austin

In article <1992Dec30.215928.19895@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>, wmuhanna@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Waleed A Muhanna) writes:
> Here we go again...
> 
> In article <1992Dec28.223237.27278@cs.brown.edu> hm@cs.brown.edu (Harry Mamaysky) writes:
>>
>>|> Americans feel generally friendly towards the supposedly Western
>>|> democratic Israel that has traditionally been portrayed in the
>>|> mass media. The feeling doesn't run that deeply, however, and is
>>|> predicated on the image matching the reality.
>>
>>When was the last time you had the privilege of visiting Israel. It is
>>most certainly a democratic Western country.
> 
> It is most certainly is not.  See below.
> 
>>It has all the features
>>of democracy that we have in the U.S. 
> 
> It certainly doesn't; it is not even close.  True equality means the
		        ==============================================
> end of zionism.  Perhaps you have a different notion of "true equality"
================
> under the law.


		[ Another old Waleed macro deleted ]


	There are few empirical comparative studies that both
	carefully operationalize and measure democracy. About
	a year or two ago I posted a summary of a research by 
	Kenneth Bollen, "Issues in the comperative measurement of 
	political democracy" (American Sociological Review, 1980,
	pp. 370-390).  I don't have the time to type in extensive
	excerpts but here are a couple of points:

	Political democracy was defined as "the extent to which 
	the political power of the elite is minimized and that
	of the nonelite is maximized."

	The democracy index for 1965 for selected countries:
	
			Israel		 96.8
			U.S. 		 92.4
			France 		 90.8
			West GErmany	 88.6
			Soviet Union 	 18.2
			Iceland 	100.0
			South Africa 	 58.9
			Lebanon		 74.0
			Jordan 		 30.8

	The study is not free of limitations; 1993 is not 1965;
	and, of course, many interpretations are valid. But, I'd
	say that the information above suggest that all the drivel
	about Israel and Zionism being inherently undemocratic is 
	just that: drivel. 


Noam
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:24422 soc.culture.arabic:6100
From: gwydion@hal.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Mercenary Programmer)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.arabic
Subject: Re: Jihad is self-defence
Followup-To: soc.culture.arabic,soc.religion.islam
Date: 31 Dec 1992 05:26:25 GMT
Organization: /etc/organization
NNTP-Posting-Host: hal.gnu.ai.mit.edu
Followup-Note: Look at followups.

In article <4604@bimacs.BITNET> ehrlich@bimacs.BITNET (Gideon Ehrlich) writes:
# One of the basic Islamic rules is:
# 
#   DEIN    MOHAMED B'SEIF !!
# 
# DEIN    - the law of
# MOHAMED - Mohamed - the person considered by Moslims to be a profet.
# B'SEIF  - by a swared (Seif = Harb (alharb) )
# 
# The meaning of   DEIN    MOHAMED B'SEIF is:
# 
#  YOU MUST USE A BRUTE FORCE IN ORDER TO CONVINCE NATIONS TO ACCEPT
# ISLAM!!!
# 
# The meaning is that a war for forcing non-Muslims to became Muslims IS
# considered to be a HOLY WAR !!

If this is one of the basic Islamic rules, then it
must be covered in either the Quran or the Sunnah.
Can you give us appropritate quotes from either to
back up your claim?

Basalat Ali Raja.
From: cubsfan@camelot.bradley.edu (Michael Silverman)
Subject: Re: Israel must return the deportees!
Organization: Priests of the Temples of Syrinx
Date: 29 Dec 92 04:32:19 GMT


>   Israel must be told that the sentences are totally unacceptable
>   Israel has to be told that the deportations are absolutely unacceptable,


And if they don't, then they will be sent to their room without
supper!


>   (A British Jew who does NOT support Israel)


Can you say "self hating Jew?"
It is fine for a Jew to not support the actions of the Israeli
government, but a Jew who does not support the idea of an
independed Jewish state (Israel) is the type of Jew who would have
collaborated with the Nazis, leading to the deaths of other Jews,
just to protect himself. There were "self-hating Jews" like this
in the Warsaw ghetto.

--
cubsfan@camelot.bradley.edu

"One likes to believe in the freedom of baseball" - Geddy Lee
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: bill@cognet.ucla.edu (William M. Eldridge)
Subject: Re: POLITICS: Re: Israel must return the deportees!
Organization: UCLA Cognitive Science Research Program
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 19:41:15 GMT

backon@vms.huji.ac.il writes:

>>>Seriously, if you can be provoked to this extreme by an action which really
>>>has little effect on your day-to-day life, can't you see the extreme
>>>provocation which Israel has had to endure from Hamas?  Kidnappings,
>>>murder, a philosophy of war against all Jews - those seem unbearable
>>>to me.  How would Britain handle the IRA in such circumstances.
>>
>> How did Britain handle the zionist terrorists circa WWII?
>> (it just seemed to be a closer analogy, or at least a little ironic).

>You mean those Jewish bastard Christ killers ?   :-)

What's the point of throwing in these cute barbs?

>Let's see. They hung a few, deported a few hundred (thousand ??) to Eritrea
>(sp) in Africa for a couple of years. Nothing special :-)

>Better than Britain handles the IRA *freedom fighters* :-)

>Better than democratic Amerika handled the Weathermen in the late 1960's.
>                            ^

Hanging a few and deporting a few hundred is better than the American
treatment ofthe Weathermen?
-- 
{{{{ bill eldridge           310-206-3960                x                }}}}
{{{{ bill@cognet.ucla.edu    310-206-3987 fax           xxx              }}}}
{{{{ ~more, ~better, ~faster [80's motto]                x              }}}}
{{{{ ~hot, ~toxic, and ~shallow [90's motto]                              }}}}
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: dfs@doe.carleton.ca (David F. Skoll)
Subject: Re: POLITICS: Re: Israel must return the deportees!
Organization: Dept. of Electronics, Carleton University
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 17:10:12 GMT

In <bill.725666236@castor> bill@cognet.ucla.edu (William M. Eldridge) writes:

>dfs@doe.carleton.ca (David F. Skoll) writes:

>>Seriously, if you can be provoked to this extreme by an action which really
>>has little effect on your day-to-day life, can't you see the extreme
>>provocation which Israel has had to endure from Hamas?  Kidnappings,
>>murder, a philosophy of war against all Jews - those seem unbearable
>>to me.  How would Britain handle the IRA in such circumstances??

>How did Britain handle the zionist terrorists [sic] circa WWII?

They executed some.  They expelled many.  They imprisoned others.

So far, except for the executions, Israel has followed in Britain's
footsteps.

>(it just seemed to be a closer analogy, or at least a little ironic).

Indeed.

--
                     |         | "Step up and shake the hand
David F. Skoll       | ||||||| |  Of someone you can't stand,
|_ _ _  __   __ _ __ |  \\V//  |  You can tolerate him if you try..."
 / |  | |_|   | |  | |  __|__  |  -- Tom Lehrer, "National Brotherhood Week"
_____|________________________________________________________________________
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:24106 soc.culture.greek:11882 soc.culture.europe:10810 soc.history:10388 soc.rights.human:4671
From: astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein)
Subject: Re: Jordanian Palestinians (was: israel & hamas)
Organization: NYSERNet, Inc.
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1992 23:05:47 GMT

bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay) writes:

>In 1954, Jordan passed a law that defined as a Jordanian citizen
>(i) someone who was a Jordanian citizen according to either of
>    two earlier laws, and
>(ii) someone who was not a Jew, was a Palestinian citizen in 1947,
>    and whose normal place of residence was Jordan at the time of
>    passage of this law.

>Note that Jordan in (ii) then included the WB according to Jordanian
>law.  This is from memory, so some details might be wrong.  I am
>certain that Jews were expressly excluded in part (ii); this was
>claimed to be in retaliation for Israel's Law of Return.

Funny how Israel didn't expressly exclude Arabs from being citizens.
-- 
Alan H. Stein                     astein@israel.nysernet.org
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein)
Subject: Re: Palestinian deportees turned back by Lebanese
Organization: NYSERNet, Inc.
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 20:06:02 GMT

Just more evidence that the Arabs care more about destroying Israel
than about the welfare of their brethren.
-- 
Alan H. Stein   -----  AJIN   -----  astein@israel.nysernet.org
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:23946 talk.politics.soviet:9928 soc.culture.greek:11800 soc.culture.europe:10734 soc.history:10336 soc.culture.soviet:11454
From: eggertj@moses.atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert x6127 g41)
Subject: Re: Israeli Expulsion of 418 Palestinians
Reply-To: eggertj@atc.ll.mit.edu
Organization: MIT Lincoln Lab - Group 41
	<EGGERTJ.92Dec18160400@moses.atc.ll.mit.edu>
	<1992Dec22.002443.18839@ennews.eas.asu.edu>
	<EGGERTJ.92Dec21225433@moses.atc.ll.mit.edu>
	<1992Dec25.032558.9567@nysernet.org>
Date: 27 Dec 92 23:14:28

In article <1992Dec25.032558.9567@nysernet.org> astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein) writes:
>   eggertj@moses.atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert x6127 g41) writes:
>
>   >Were the deportees convicted of terrorism?  No.  Were the deportees
>   >proven in a court of law to be members of an outlaw group?  No.
>
>   Was Nissim Toledano convicted in a court of law before he was brutally
>   murdered by Hamas terrorists?

And so Mr. Stein attempts to justify the illegal actions of a nation
by the illegal actions of some terrorists.  Sorry, doesn't wash.

>   In case you didn't notice, there's a war going on there.

In that case, Israel is committing war crimes.

>   >Indeed, according to independent reports, many if not most of the
>   >deportees were _not_ members of Hamas at all.
>
>   It didn't look that way on television.

Can you tell who is and who isn't a member of Hamas by their pictures
on television?  I doubt it.

=Jim
--
=Jim  eggertj@atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: osamakl@iastate.edu (Osama Al-Shaykh-Yousef)
Subject: Re: deportaion
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames IA
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1992 16:14:02 GMT

In talk.politics.mideast makowsky writes:
 
>In article <1hi4mjINNik1@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> cl056@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Hamaza H. Salah) writes:
 
># From: wc4209@writer.yorku.ca (Irene Berkovich)
 
># >Funny, I don't recall seeing any posts from you shedding your
># >crocodile tears when Kuwait expelled over 100,000 Palestinian
># >residents after the Gulf war.  Mind you, these were not people
># >inciting others to murder like the Hamas boys.  They were kicked out
># >just for being Palestinian.  And not a peep from you, or any of the
># >hippocrates at the United Nations who routinely ignore Arab civil
># >rights abuse.
 
># >But I guess thats okay.  Arabs are allowed to kill, or expel one
># >another by your logic.  You only scream when Israel is involved.
 
># However there is a difference here.  In Kuwait, Palestinians were
># not kicked from their homeland.  In Israel, Palestinians were kicked
># from Gaza Strip and West Bank.  
 
>	They were kicked out of Judea and Samaria, parts of the eternal
>Jewish homeland.  And if they did not want to get kicked out, they had
>no business joining Hamas.
 
It is not Judea and Samaria. All the world knows it is the occupied 
territories by the Israelis.
The peace process is all about this.

># If some jews argue Gaza Strip and West Bank are not for Palestinians,
># then we come to the root question that is: Where jews came from and where
># palestinians came from?  The outsiders vs. the insiders..
 
>	The Jews come from there.  The "palestinians?" come from Arab
>invaders.
 
># Palestine is NOT "a land without nation for a nation with out land."
 
>	Correct.  There has never been a "palestine?".
 
Go and read history books other than what you were taught. Palestine was
there. It is there for all Palestinians.

>--
>	There are three types of people in the world.  Those that are good
>at math and those that are not.

Go and calculate the ratio of Palestinians and Arabs killed by Israel to 
that of Jewish killed by Palestinians and Arabs, the ratio of deportees,
the ratio of bombed houses, the ratio of POWs, and the number of 
concentrated camps. It is a good exercise.

Other thing you should think about is human values and peace.

_Osama

Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:24594 soc.culture.yugoslavia:10373 soc.culture.europe:10981 soc.culture.greek:12012
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.europe,soc.culture.greek
Followup-To: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: Re: Macedonia: Reality versus History.
Date: Sun, 03 Jan 93 16:50:43 EST
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world

In article <C09J13.2A7@news.cso.uiuc.edu> ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis ) writes:

>>    Excuse me. If the lands now in former SFR macedonia are not part of the
>>geographic region of "Macedonia" and if this name does not derive by tradition
>>from the ancient Macedonia, well--I guess we can rewrite history.

> What tradition? How many different and irrelevant names did the area of
> Skopje have in the past?  There is no historical or geographical relation of
> Skopje with Macedonia.

So the Greek educational system is also in a shambles, 'tamtam.'
This is the same mentality which allows Greeks to rationalize that 
Cyprus is a Greek Island. No history book shows that it ever was. It 
belonged to the Ottoman Turks 'lock, stock and barrel' for a period of 
well over 300 years. In fact, prior to the Turks' acquisition of it, 
following bloody naval battles with the Venetians in 1570 AD, the
island of Cyprus belonged, invariably, to several nations: The 
Assyrians, the Sumerians, the Phoenicians, the Egyptians, the Ottoman 
Turks, of course in that order, owned it as their territory. But, it 
has never been the possession of the government of Greece - not even 
for one day - in the history of the world. Moreover, Cyprus is
located 1500 miles from the Greek mainland, but only 40 miles from 
Turkiye's southern coastline. Following the Greek Cypriot attempt
to annex the island to Greece with the aid of the Greek army, Turkiye
intervened by using her legal right given by two international agreements. 
Turkiye did it for the frequently and conveniently forgotten people of the
island, Turkish Cypriots. For those Turkish Cypriots whose grandparents
have been living on the island since 1571. 

Serdar Argic

                     'This war quickly developed into one of extermination. 
                      We closed the roads and mountain passes that might 
                      serve as ways of escape for the Tartars [Turks] and 
                      then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: revans@euclid.ucsd.edu (Ron Evans)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Resisting occupation
Date: 24 Dec 92 08:39:15 GMT

<1992Dec24.035917.0156735@locus.com> jle@lear.bos.locus.com (John Elghani):

>Here, the blacks 
>are not treated equally, and I don't think they should battle
>the Police, nor the National Guard.  The issue is occupation
>and stripping of identity and dignity, killing and torture,
>and and home theft, punishment to relatives of doers , ...etc.

	One can hardly imagine anything more stripping of
	identity and dignity than slavery.  Should blacks
	have randomly killed white Americans back in 1850?
-- 
Ron Evans (revans@math.ucsd.edu)
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:23880 soc.rights.human:4632
From: jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk (Jeremy Henderson)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.rights.human
Subject: Re: To Livian (was Re: Israeli Expulsion of 418 Palestinians)
Date: 22 Dec 92 14:26:55 GMT
Organization: Edinburgh University

In article <1992Dec21.142303.1@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu> ifaz706@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu (Noam Tractinsky) writes:
~	Good news, for a change. One of the problems ISrael
~	faces in its negotiations with the Palestinians is the
~	need to listen and talk to a multiple-head entity. If 
~	we can collapse those heads into one, negotiations 
~	should become easier. It would serve both Palestinian
~	and Israeli interests if the Palestinian delegation will
~	be more representative of the Palestinian pople. 
~

Gosh! I agree with Noam! Too bad the Israelis don't agree with us that
they should be negotiating with the representatives of the Palestinian
people, and insist on excluding the PLO



-- 
===Jeremy Henderson===jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk=          

This message cost the net hundreds if not thousands of dollars.
Bloody good value if you ask me.
From: gwydion@gnu.ai.mit.edu (Mercenary Programmer)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Kaufman demonstrates stupidity, so does Marwan
Date: 3 Jan 1993 20:06:41 GMT
Organization: Free Software Foundation
NNTP-Posting-Host: spiff.gnu.ai.mit.edu

In article <232@jcpltyo.JCPL.CO.JP> ohayon@jcpltyo.JCPL.CO.JP (Tsiel Ohayon) writes:
>I    Ahmed Yassin was arrested not kidnapped.

By your same logic, your policeman was arrested and not kidnapped.
You are playing word games here.  Either that or you fail to recognize
something - the Palestinians that live in the Occupied Territories do
NOT recognize the authority of the Israeli army or the Israeli police
in their hearts.  They might submit to this claimed authority, but
their reason for submitting is that they and their loved ones will get
hurt if they do not.

Quite simply, they are being suppreseed, their rights as human beings
are being violated and they hate those that suppress them and violate
their rights.  This is a totally human reaction and I would be
extremely surprised if it were otherwise.

>II   Ahmed Yassin is the founder of Hamas which prones the destruction of 
>     Israel and the Jews.

Israel should not have put itself in a position where an entire people
hate it for the injustices that Israel has committed against them.  Or,
if it chooses to put itself in that position, then it should be willing
to pay the price.

Basalat Ali Raja.
From: peewee@infoserv.com (Philip Stromer)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: The Hadith about Muslims killing the Jews / Hamas vs. Sunnah
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 92 16:44:58 PST
Distribution: world
Organization: Friends of Lenny Bruce

        >In article <1992Dec22.160413.14066@cbfsb.cb.att.com>,
        >mmdh@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (Mazen Mokhtar) writes:
        >Both [Moslem regimes and Nazis] are oppressors who deny 
        >the rights of people; 
        
I agree.  The Moslem regimes and the Nazis are very similar,        
especially in their hatred of Jews.
        
        >although only Lebanon used to deny the existance of the 
        >Palestinian people.

Wrong; check out Kuwait, and get back to me later.

        >I am a semite an I am not biased against Jews. 
        
Being a Semite (note the capitalization) has nothing to do with        
anti-Semitism.  Anti-semitism is a word coined to describe hatred
of Jews.  I hereby recommend that all Israel lovers refrain from
using the word "anti-Semite", and use Alan Dershowitz's new word,
"Judeopath".

        >I am only an opponent of oppression.  This position offends 
        >many, but that has not detered me.

...From defending oppressors, such as Assad, Khomeini, Saddam, Arafat.
At least you're consistent, I'll give you that.
  
        >If my brother takes my neighbour's home and kicks him out of it, 
        >and I protect my brother against attempts by my neighbour to 
        >regain his home, am I there to oppress, or am I there to protect 
        >my brother?

Your brother should take his neighbor and deport him if his neighbor lobbed 
hand grenades into your brother's home.  

Then you could come out of the woodwork and complain about your brother
denying the thug his "human rights".

--Philip Stromer (peewee@infoserv.com)

        "For all I care, you can send your money to the 
        Hitler memorial fund, too, if that pleases you."

-- Yigal Arens, in article <9323@venera.isi.edu>
From: proberts@informix.com (Paul Roberts)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: deportaion
Date: 28 Dec 92 07:10:07 GMT
Organization: Informix Software, Inc.

In article <1992Dec27.234624.25745@nysernet.org> astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein) writes:
>
>Wouldn't it be nice if the Arabs started taking those negotiations
>seriously, moved off the dime and stopped unceremoniously rejecting
>every Israeli proposal while threatening to bolt the peace process?
>

Question: is it not true that Shamir recently said publically something
to the effect that "we would have kept `negotiations' going for decades,
and never made any real concessions"?