HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: fass@math.uwaterloo.ca (The FASS Theatre Company)
Subject: Re: Trade Clemens?
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 19:22:15 GMT

In article <1992Nov19.105843.10462@netcom.com> arrow@netcom.com (Les Arrow) writes:
>In article <wall-181192165750@elvis.swarthmore.edu> wall@cc.swarthmore.edu (Swarthmore College Computing Center) writes:
 
[stuff about the ineptitude of Red Sox upper management deleted]

>Ok, so what next? Trade Clemens?
>--Les

Is trading Clemens a bad idea?  Currently, Clemens is arguably the 
best pitcher in baseball and his market value would be incredibly high.
From the performace of the Sox this year, and rumblings from various 
disgruntled Red Sox fans, I'm guessing they could use an infusion of youth.
I'm not sure of the Rocket's age but he has been around for a while and
will most likely decline in 3 or so years (then again he could be another
Ryan).   The Sox need to rebuild and this would be a viable way to do
it.

Okay.  Now that I've caused all die hard Red Sox fans to put contracts
out on my life for thinking such a thought, let's say you had to trade
Roger.  What is the Rocket's market value?  What should the Sox get in
return for the best pitcher in baseall?

Lee.
(Currently rooming with Salmon Rushdie to avoid angered Red Sox fans)



Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: kenney@tribe.b17d.ingr.com (David Kenney)
Subject: Re: A TRUE RUMOR! Sandy Alomar for Pat Borders
Reply-To: kenney@tribe.b17d.ingr.com
Organization: Intergraph Corporation, Huntsville, Alabama
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 15:53:34 GMT

In article <1992Nov22.045210.9637@r-node.gts.org>, shadow@r-node.gts.org (Jay Chu) writes:
|> In article <1992Nov17.151547.8207@infonode.ingr.com> kenney@tribe.b17d.ingr.com writes:
|> 
|> Not a joke at all.  It was a serious offer by the Indians...only to be
|> turned down (temporarily) by the Jays.  The other player is NOT Manny
|> Lee, it's actually 3B (former All-Star, Gold Glover) Kelly Gruber.
|> 
|> >Here my analysis of the parts (ages as of July 1, 1993):
|> >Borders:  30-year old catcher of average ability.  WS play should make him
|> >          popular in Toronto.
|> >Lee:      28-year old shortstop who in his prime is probably a little better
|> >          than average.
|> >
|> >S.Alomar: 27-year old catcher who is always injured, is good defensively,
|> >          and has always been expected to be a star.
|> >Baerga:   One of the best young players in the AL.  Only 24, with 3 years
|> >          of ML experience.
|> 
|> Very good analysis.  Can you redo it with Gruber in the picture?

As long as the Indians don't!!!  Gruber would make it worse!

Gruber:  31-year old 3rd baseman coming off a rotten year.  He might
         rebound, but I wouldn't count on it.  Always lousy OBP means
         he would fit right in with the Indians.  Has had injury problems
         this year.  I have seen media reports questioning his attitude
         and work ethic, which the reader can put as much stock in as (s)he
         desires.

The point I was trying to make was that I'd rather have Sandy Alomar over
Borders and would certainly rather have Baerga over any but the few best
at a position.  Changing Lee to Gruber makes the trade worse for the Indians
in my opinion, and it was horrible to start with.  The Indians could play
Brook Jacoby at third for as long as they want.  Baerga has supposedly been
trying to convince free agent Jose Guzman that the Indians are a great team
to play for.  Why trade should the Indians trade their best player, who seems
to like it in Cleveland, for a stiff?

I take it Pat Tabler and Alfredo Griffin are free agents.  Otherwise, why
wouldn't the Blue Jays hold out for Paul Sorrento and Mark Lewis for Tabler
and Griffin?

I still feel (hope?) the talk of the Indians trading Baerga for garbage is
nothing more than a joke to get me worried.

-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
David Kenney                                       kenney@tribe.b17d.ingr.com
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: ecaxron@ariel.lerc.nasa.gov (Ron Graham)
Subject: TRIBE: Rick Bay resigns!
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: NASA Lewis Research Center
Date: 21 Nov 1992 10:50 EST  

Just before close of business yesterday, Tribe president Rick Bay resigned.
The stated reason was "differences in management style" between himself and
owner Richard Jacobs.

Jacobs will be "expanding his own role" to assume Bay's duties.

Comments: this only one week after Baseball America names the Tribe as
having the best organization in baseball for 1992.  Sigh.  Bay had nothing
whatsoever to do with the product on the playing field, but was doing a
fine job on the business end (see RG's 1992 Tribe Front Office Report Card).

Given Jacobs' generally tight lips, we may never know exactly what happened.

Bay, on the other hand, has a reputation for being a good worker, but also
for being a job-shopper.  He's worked for five organizations in the last
five years (Ohio State, the Yankees, an independent TV firm, the Univ. of
Minnesota, and now the Indians).  Ah well, he'll land on his feet and do
a good job for someone else - for the next year.  Most of us in Clevetown
wish him well.

The spooky part: his resignation came five years *to the day* after he quit
the Ohio State job over the firing of then-football coach Earle Bruce.  He
said then that he felt his authority had been undermined.

This article has been forwarded to the Cleveland Sports Mailing List.

RG

"I don't know how [the Indians] lose.  I really don't."  -  John Smiley
"If he can't play for the Indians, he can't play for us."
 -  Al Rosen, referring to Jerry Browne
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer)
Subject: Re: Tigers in 93? (Was: Re: Brewers in 93?)
Organization: Cornell Univ. CS Dept, Ithaca NY 14853
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 15:00:19 GMT

In article <1992Nov19.100111.14997@netcom.com> arrow@netcom.com (Les Arrow) writes:
>I guess the real question is do you think a player who eats up
>475 to 500 outs can be productive. I think so.

Productive?  Yes.  Star hitter at 1B?  Maybe.  Legitimate MVP
candidate?  Not likely, unless he had an *incredible* number of AB.

>I would love to know what the average is in the league.

This number is meaningless.  Fully dependent on playing time.  League
average OBP is about .330.  Fielder is below that.  (And *far* below
the league average OBP for a 1B.)

>So, is 18 outs significant enough to regard Fielder as a wash out? I don't
>think so. Not if he is able to be in the middle of the lineup and drive
>in 130 runs with 44 HRs.Now once this productivity slips, granted he isn't
>worth much, but I don't think we can judge this on one season.

A GM *has* to make judgements like that...  (And while most GMs ignore
single-season plummets, most GMs also get burnt a lot of the time...)

>Personally I don't think many players could have had such a poor
>season at the plate and still accomplish the driving in talents of
>Fielder.

Tell me that *after* somebody posts the RBI opportunity statistics,
and I'll believe you.

-Valentine
From: rickert@NeXTwork.Rose-Hulman.Edu (John H. Rickert)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Steve Reed -- Once a Giant, Now a Rocky -- WHY?
Date: 20 Nov 1992 17:40:28 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Department at Rose-Hulman
Distribution: usa
Reply-To: rickert@NeXTwork.Rose-Hulman.Edu (John H. Rickert)
NNTP-Posting-Host: g215a-1.nextwork.rose-hulman.edu

In article <1ei7ssINN5sl@darkstar.UCSC.EDU> srobson@ucscb.UCSC.EDU (Seth I  
Robson) writes:
> His 40+ saves last year (right?) set a single-season record for all
> minor league baseball.  He split a roughly equal amount of time between
> Shreveport and Phoenix.
> 
> Most people seem to be of the opinion that he's not really that great a 
> prospect; and that his sidearm delivery--while a novelty of great  
distraction
> to minor league hitters--would be easily solved by big-leaguers (especially
> left-handed hitters, I presume).

Isn't this the same sort of reasoning that kept Dan Quisenberry 
out of the majors until he was 26?

john rickert
rickert@nextwork.rose-hulman.edu
From: boell@hpcc01.corp.hp.com (Donald P Boell)
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 00:34:44 GMT
Subject: Re: Mitchell for Charlton and other trades.
Organization: the HP Corporate notes server
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball

The Giants trade of Mitchell last year looks worse and worse everytime I
look at it.  The following of my predictions in the forum have now come true:

o Swift won't last as a starter because of his arm.
o Burba won't be able to keep a spot on the ML roster due to his control.
o Mitchell won't be back in Seattle next year after being mired in a slump
  for a large part of the season due to his unfamiliarity with AL pitchers.

So, in effect, the Giants gave arch-rival Cincinnatti one of the most 
dangerous long ball hitters in the NL for one middle reliever (Jackson),
one sometime starter, sometime closer (Swift) and a minor league reliever
that has yet to develop (Burba).  

I predict the following for 1993 - 

o Mitchell returns to form and punishes the Giants
o Burba struggles with his control and shuttles between SF and Phoenix
o Swift becomes the closer but has continued arm problems
o Jackson remains the most solid contributor of the three

How many players with the last name beginning with 'M' will the Giants give
away before they learn?

Mays
McCovey
Mitchell
Maddox
Mathews 
Madlock


************************************************
* Donald Boell - Hewlett Packard               *
*                                              *
* When you're chewing on life's gristle        *
* Don't grumble, give a whistle - Monty Python *
*                                 Life of Brian*
************************************************


Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: baseggio@deshaw.com (Franco Baseggio)
Subject: Re: Reason for dropped-3rd-strike rule?
Organization: D. E. Shaw & Co.
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 16:32:28 GMT

In article <1992Nov14.191941.19821@athena.mit.edu> cmk@athena.mit.edu (Charles M Kozierok) writes:
>In article <1992Nov14.142255.21807@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> drw3l@delmarva.evsc.Virginia.EDU (David Robert Walker) writes:
>>In article <1992Nov14.104250.22743@serval.net.wsu.edu> jjungbau@yoda.eecs.wsu.edu (Jim Jungbauer) writes:

>so here's a question: is there anything preventing the following from
>happening: nobody on, 2 strike count. the pitcher uncorks a real bad
>pitch which is clearly heading for the backstop (a la Charlie Sheen in
>_Major League_). the batter, seeing this, swings intentionally and runs
>to first.
>does it depend on where the ball is in relation to the timing of the
>swing? i.e. could the batter wait until the ball is obviously past
>the catcher before swinging?
>
I believe Bill Buckner did this in '86 (or so) when he was playing for
the Red Sox.  The ball bounced on the way to the plate and he swung.
Someone with his reputation for contact (not to mention sneakiness)
almost certainly did it intentionally.

Another question, though:  is there a rule which prevents the catcher
from playing in the outfield?  Obviously you wouldn't do this with men
on or with 2 strikes, but otherwise...

Franco
From: st1rp@rosie.uh.edu (Schwam, David S.)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Houston Protected List
Date: 16 Nov 1992 00:42 CST
Organization: University of Houston
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: rosie.uh.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    

In article <1992Nov13.143333.21811@cs.tulane.edu>, eebonar@sn01.sncc.lsu.edu writes...
> 
>	I did the mock expansion draft Astro's list so I figured I should
>comment on this one (the 'official' list).  One note; it seems that the
>Tribune and the RM News disagreed on one person.  Since I don't know of a 
>Todd Jones I assume that Jimmy Jones is correct.
> 
>	WHY WOULD ANYONE PROTECT EITHER DOUG JONES OR JIMMY JONES!!
> 
>	Sorry to shout at everyone.  But this is idiotic.  Doug Jones is a
>36 (during next season) year old pitcher who looked horrible in '91.  Yes,
>he had a very good year in '92 but how could you think that he would be
>someone that the expansion teams would want.

     I think the people of Houston would disagree with your assessment
of Doug Jones.  In '91 Houston had a terrible season because it lacked
a closer (among other things).  The addition of D. Jones to the bullpen
changed the team around.  Not only did he post an ERA under 2, but if
you combine his wins with the number of saves he accumulated, you will see
that he had some part in an overwhelming majority of the Astro victories.
    While he may be the 'old man' of the Houston pitching staff, he
remained healthy through most of the season and pitched an incredible
number of innings.  Art Howe (manager) knew that he could rely on D. Jones
day in and day out.  Without Jones, Houston has no effective closer.

>	I protected Jeff Juden, Ryan Bowen (his is fairly young) and Butch
>Henry (the only lefty with any potential at all in the majors or high
>minors) instead of the two Jones and Hunter.  Hunter might well be reasonable
>(I've lost my minor league stats; can anyone refresh me on him?).

     I saw Bowen pitch at the Dome a couple of times this season and was really
unimpressed.  His ERA remained high (over 9.00 if I remember) and he rarely 
seemed to get past the 3rd inning.  

> 
>Dave
>__________
>Dave Bonar
>eebonar@lsuvax.sncc.lsu.edu
>__________
> 

--
David S. Schwam
st1rp@jetson.uh.edu

Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: fvest@ducvax.auburn.edu (Floyd Vest)
Subject: DRAFT: 2nd Round
Organization: Auburn University, AL
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 00:31:10 GMT


Round  Team Player              POS   LG   92Team
2-01    FLA Everett, Carl       7-OF  AL    NY
2-02    COL Benevides, Fred     6-SS  NL    CIN
2-03    FLA Weathers, David     1-P   AL    TOR
2-04    COL Mejia, Roberto      4-2B  NL    LA
2-05    FLA Johnstone, John     1-P   NL    NY
2-06    COL Bochtler, Doug      1-P   NL    MON
2-07    FLA Martinez, Ramon     6-SS  NL    PIT
2-08    COL Painter, Lance      1-P   NL    SD
2-09    FLA Decker, Steve       2-C   NL    SF
2-10    COL Henry, Butch        1-P   NL    HOU
2-11    FLA Carpenter, Cris     1-RP  NL    STL
2-12    COL Hawblitzel, Ryan    1-P   NL    CHI
2-13    FLA Armstrong, Jack     1-P   NL    CLE
2-14    COL Castilla, Vinny     6-SS  NL    ATL
2-15    FLA Champerino, Scott   1-P   AL    TEX
2-16    COL Merriman, Brett     1-RP  AL    CAL
2-17    FLA Edens, Tom          1-RP  AL    MIN
2-18    COL Tatum, Jim          5-3B  AL    MIL
2-19    FLA Berumen, Andres     1-RP  AL    KC
2-20    COL Ritz, Kevin         1-P   AL    DET
2-21    FLA Person, Robert      1-P   AL    CHI
2-22    COL Wedge, Eric         2-C   AL    BOS
2-23    FLA Corsi, Jim          1-RP  AL    OAK
2-24    COL Shepherd, Keith     1-RP  NL    PHI
2-25    FLA Lewis, Ritchie      1-P   AL    BAL
2-26    COL Jones, Calvin       1-RP  AL    SEA

-- 
Floyd Vest <fvest@ducvax.auburn.edu> <fvest@auducvax.bitnet>
Manager, Administrative Systems--Auburn University, Alabama USA
Voice: +1 205 844 4512  BBS: +1 205 745 3989  FIDO: 1:3613/3
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: lsmith@deci.cs.umn.edu (Lance "Squiddie" Smith)
Subject: The Big Cat moves West
Organization: The Little Mountain Squids of the Poor
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 01:45:11 GMT

The news from the Clari baseball group is that The Rockies have picked
up net.favorite, Andres Galarraga, who will now be refered to as The
Big Mountain Cat. 

Hoooboy! Can Jim Acker be far behind?
--
  Lance "Cr2O3.2H2O" Smith | "Quick! Get behind me! I don't know what a
    (lsmith@cs.umn.edu)    |  little peanut like you could do to so upset
     Absinthe makes the    |  him, but it looks like Doomsday really wants 
      time grow softer     |  to kill you"    _Mr Peanut meets Superman_
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: nac@well.sf.ca.us (Nancy Cedeno)
Subject: Re: Al Rosen out
Organization: Whole Earth 'Lectronic Link
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1992 03:03:14 GMT

In <1992Nov20.192247.1@wharton.upenn.edu> harder@wharton.upenn.edu writes:

>Just heard on CNN that Al Rosen resigned as G.M. of the Giants,
>owing to new ownership.  He was somewhat  broken up about it
>during the clip of the press conference that I saw.  Any 
>speculation on who is next in line?  Is Roger Craig the next to
>go?

>-Joe Harder
I wouldn't be too surprised to see Craig retire.  His family has been asking
him to hang 'em up for some time now.  Personally, I'd love to see Dusty
Baker step in to the Manager's shoes.

Nancy Cedeno
nac@well.sf.ca.us
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: arrow@netcom.com (Les Arrow)
Subject: Re: Mitchell for Charlton and other trades.
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1992 02:51:49 GMT

>Putting Edgar Martinez there is not "wasting" him.  When you've got a
>guy that can put up a .400 OBP, it isn't wasting him to lead him off.
>If it's his power you're worrying about, don't.  He doesn't have that
>much.  This year was clearly a fluke; he's never displayed this much
>power before ever.  For his career, he has less power than Rickey, and
>you don't see too many people complaining that it's a waste to use him
>at leadoff.
>

Edgar Martinez = Slow.

Edgar Martinez is not Rickey Henderson. He won't steal more than 50 bases
each year. He doesn't motor around the bases as fast. He doesn't worry
pitchers when he's on first because they know he isn't going anywhere.
Edgar Martinez will have trouble scoring runs because you need a triple to
get him in from first base. See Wade Boggs.

If Edgar can hit .300 with doubles power, they need him in the middle
of the lineup. Since he makes good contact, he's a good hit and run man
when there is someone fast on in front of him. To compare him to Rickey
Henderson is ridiculous.

--Les
From: demers@cs.ucsd.edu (David DeMers)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Eck Wins MVP in Horrible Voting
Date: 23 Nov 92 19:18:58 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: CSE Dept., UC San Diego


In article <1992Nov23.055856.1105@panix.com>, spira@panix.com (Greg "Sarcasm Is A Way Of Life" Spira) writes:

[oops, some folks I cut out said:]
|> >>Now, granted, offense at a middle infield position is worth more than
|> >>offense from a left fielder, but that doesn't make up the huge difference
|> >>in offensive contribution between Henderson and Bordick.
|> 
|> >	I know Bordick did not have MVP numbers.  But he was the strongest
|> >glue in that infield that looked like it would have gone to pot early in
|> >the year.  Bordick stepping up there and hitting .300, playing every day
|> >when no-one expected him to, provides a bigger team contribution than the
|> >17 extra arbitrary runs that Rickey provided.
|> 
|> It's silly to say a contribution was greater because no one expected it,
|> which is esssentially what you're arguing.  Bordick did help the As;
|> there's no denying that.  But I don't see where the surprise factor
|> makes him any more valuable than if he were to have this season
|> every year.  And since when are runs arbitrary?

I can't say it's "correct", but can certainly understand the fascination
with players who exceed expectations.  Consider how well Bordick did
compared with the *expected* performance.  In that light, he was definitely
quite valuable.  Think of it as a "leverage" factor - Bordick was expected
to contribute about 3 wins and contributed about 7.  Sure, Rickey
contributed about 9, but that's just a normal season for him.  (Wins
crudely estimated at RC/10...)






-- 
Dave DeMers			 ddemers@UCSD   demers@cs.ucsd.edu
Computer Science & Engineering	C-014		demers%cs@ucsd.bitnet
UC San Diego					...!ucsd!cs!demers
La Jolla, CA 92093-0114	(619) 534-0688, or -8187, FAX: (619) 534-7029
From: RVESTERM@vma.cc.nd.edu
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: White leadoff; Carter mvp
Date: 23 Nov 92 19:32:38 GMT

mike crosby says something like, "devo may not be the ideal leadoff
hitter, too many k's, but he does get the job done..."

come again?

first, what does it matter how many times a leadoff hitter strikes out?
the leadoff hitter is the hitter who comes to the plate with nobody on
base more than ANY OTHER BATTER.  thus, out of every position in the
lineup, strikeouts matter the least to the leadoff hitter.

second, exactly what job are you referring to? if you mean, "runs
quickly," i'll agree with you.  but if you mean, "is a good leadoff
hitter," i won't.  what does it matter how quickly your leadoff hitter
runs when he gets on base a whopping 30 percent of the time?

bob vesterman.
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: shadow@r-node.gts.org (Jay Chu)
Subject: Re: A TRUE RUMOR! Sandy Alomar for Pat Borders
Organization: SkyDome
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1992 04:52:10 GMT

In article <1992Nov17.151547.8207@infonode.ingr.com> kenney@tribe.b17d.ingr.com writes:
>|> >So, the trade on the table is:
>|> 
>|> >Alomar and Baerga for Borders and Lee
>|> 
>|> I'd pull the trigger.  Alomar could be a very good catcher, Borders isn't.
>|> (World series MVP?  Lemke was almost MVP last year.)  Baerga put up good
>|> offensive numbers, and is fairly young.  Lee is a mediocre shortstop.
>|> 
>|> >I don't understand this deal at all.  Roberto Alomar is already in 2B, why
>|> >need Baerga?  Could Baerga be used for another trade????????
>|> 
>I consider this a joke, but people seem to be taking this rumor seriously,
>so I'll comment.  First of all, isn't Lee a free agent?  If that is true,
>then this trade can't happen at least until Lee is signed.

Not a joke at all.  It was a serious offer by the Indians...only to be
turned down (temporarily) by the Jays.  The other player is NOT Manny
Lee, it's actually 3B (former All-Star, Gold Glover) Kelly Gruber.

>Here my analysis of the parts (ages as of July 1, 1993):
>Borders:  30-year old catcher of average ability.  WS play should make him
>          popular in Toronto.
>Lee:      28-year old shortstop who in his prime is probably a little better
>          than average.
>
>S.Alomar: 27-year old catcher who is always injured, is good defensively,
>          and has always been expected to be a star.
>Baerga:   One of the best young players in the AL.  Only 24, with 3 years
>          of ML experience.

Very good analysis.  Can you redo it with Gruber in the picture?
-- 
        ______                shadow@r-node.gts.org
       | |__| |   If it's there and you can see it       - it's real
       |  ()  |   If it's there and you can't see it     - it's transparent
       |______|   If it's not there and you can't see it - you erased it!
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball