From: ira2p@faraday.clas.Virginia.EDU (Iain Robert Asplin)
Subject: Re: Invasion of Time
Organization: University of Virginia
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 17:54:04 GMT

In article <1992Sep28.065857.18450@usage.csd.unsw.OZ.AU> markc@hydra.maths.unsw.EDU.AU () writes:
>Ian Robert Asplin replies:
>
>>>Yes, this is true, and sonce it is true, then the line "Elders of our
>>>planet" DOES refer to the Time Lords of Gallifrey.  
>
>It does? How does that follow?
>
>I had a look at Invasion of Time and Mawdryn again to clear things up.
>Video is a wonderful thing. In Mawdryn the brigadier asks the Doctor who 
>the 8 are? He says they were scientists who tried to turn themselves into
>Time Lords. They stole the equipment which was designed to assist Time Lords
>who had difficulty regenerating. They then modified the equipment giving
>themselves immortality, but at a terrible cost. The Time Lords found and
>punished them by putting them into a warp ellipse for eternity, or at 
>least until a Time Lord took pity on them. There is no suggestion that the
>8 were non Time Lord Gallifreyans. You can argue that they were, but it is
>guess work. I do not think they were because the show makes clear that the
>8 were brilliant scientists. The Doctor says the modifications to the 
>machine they made were technically impressive, if dangerous. So the argument
>that they were students who could not pass the academy exams I find unacceptable. It also seems highly unlikely to me that scientists on Gallifrey would 
>not realise that what they were doing would not work. After all, with millions
>of years of research on regeneration to draw upon, the scientists should 
>have been able to realise how dangerous the work was. To me the whole point
>of the story was that 1) immortality is a curse- a consistent theme in Who;
>and 2) a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. The scientists had great skill,
>but were still very ignorant about regeneration.  Brilliant Gallifreyan 
>scientists would not be. A third reason why I do not think they were 
>Gallifreyan is the Doctor's lack of compassion for them. The Doctor has 
>always been willing to risk his life for others, yet will not give the
>scientists his remaining regenerations. He sees them as criminals, tells
>them that Time Lords cannot become involved (which is a strange thing for 
>him to say). For some reason, a;though you may disagree, I can't see the 
>Doctor being so harsh with members of his own race.
>
>
>But how do we know they waltzed onto Gallifrey? In Trial of A Time Lord,
>we learn that Andromedans or whatever, have stolen knowledge from inside the
>matrix. Maybe the scientists bought the plans for the machine from the 
>people who stole the matrix information? They thought they could become
>Time Lords. They converted the machine and it went wrong. The high council 
>of Gallifrey found out about the theft, and set the 8 in the warp ellipse.
>The elders of the scientists planet did not even try diplomatic means to
>have them released, so abandoning them to their fate, because they were 
>afraid of the Time Lords. I admit this is just as much speculation as 
>anything else, but it is certainly plausible.
>
>Some other stuff I found from watching Invasion of Time again.
>
>Andred went to the Academy. When he fails to kill the Doctor in
>the Tardis, the Doc asks him what he learned at the Academy if he 
>could not even pull off a palace revolution. (The novel says Military
>academy, but the show says academy) So if people think that you become 
>a Time Lord after you graduate the academy, then why do some people 
>insist Andred was not a time Lord? Colin Baker thought Maxil was a
>Time Lord. He said he was proud of being the only perosn on the show
>to play two different Time Lords. 
>



First off, you've proved my point exactly in the text above, that the Eight
were Gallifreyans.  You say from, the video that the Time Lords captured
the eight and set them in the warp ellipse for all eternity.
Then who does the line "the Elders of our planet" refer to?  Must be the
time Lords since they are the ones who abandoned them and put them in
the warp ellips by your own admission!  

As for Andred, so he;s been to the Academy.  So what?  Doesn't mean he
went the full route to become a Time Lord.  Enlisted personnel in the
military also go to a sort of academy but they don't come out officers.