HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: thorick@sybase.com (Thorick Chow)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: A few questions about T'ai Chi..
Date: 29 Sep 92 00:37:58 GMT
Organization: Sybase, Inc.

In article <1992Sep23.144856.13055@srg.srg.af.mil> schan@birch.srg.af.mil (Stephen Chan x4485) writes:
>In article <68696@hydra.gatech.EDU> gt1274b@prism.gatech.EDU (Dan Puckett) writes:
>
>	I practiced Chen for a few months in Pgh, but after moving to the DC
>area, I've taken up Yang again, so here's my perspective:
>	The twining energy in Chen can also be used in Yang - however, if
>you've never practiced/seen Chen before, you won't know to use it in Yang.
>

yes, yes..  this I must agree with !  I can say from personal experience
that one can spend years doing the Yang form and not get 'twisted'  :-)

>	If you allow your body to relax, and then allow your waist to pivot
>around the weighted hip joint, it seems to automatically cause a coiling
>motion through your body (at least, I feel it when I'm relaxed enough). The
>Chen set works much lower postures, so the coiling is more pronounced. In a
>higher stance, the coiling effect is much less noticeable - if you didn't know
>to feel for it, you might end up ignoring/suppressing it.
>	Does this make sense to the other Taiji folks on the net?
>

yes again...  I think you've hit it !   

>>
>>"Let me make one thing perfectly clear."  I hope Michael isn't trying
>>to characterise Yang style T'ai Chi as being an easier martial art to
>>master than Chen style.
>
>	What do you mean by "master"? That's an awfully optimistic term to use,
>don't you think? :-)

yeah..   I certainly don't see myself 'mastering' the form any time soon,
every few months, something 'new' pops up and while it doesn't invalidate
what I've done (not too much anyway)...  it does point to further things
to work on...  also I'm beginning to think that some of these more
experienced people may be right..  it may *not* be possible to master
Tai CHi without a 'lifestyle' change..  one which I'm not sure I'm
'ready' to adopt...

>	The Chen style that I've seen & practiced is definitely more complex
>and physically demanding - it was not designed to be accessible to the general
>population.
>	The Yang style is much more comfortable to practice, and easier to
>find - but In My Pompous Opinion, it's not as rich in _technique_ as Chen. The
>the principles are the same though - even though Yang places emphasis on a
>different subset of the principles than Chen.

to which I must ask those who have experience in both Chen and Yang styles....

Are the basic 'Peng', 'Lu', 'Ji', 'An'  movements done similarly in the
two styles or are they very different ?



--
"We must be careful not to discourage our 12-year-olds by making them   
 waste the best years of their lives on preparing for examinations.  If
 we do not stifle their interest in science, one of them has a chance to
 be the new Heisenberg..."              - Freeman Dyson
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: stark@dwovax.enet.dec.com (Todd I. Stark)
Subject: Re: Taido/Hakamas(hopping)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Date:  6 OCT 92 10:33:49    


gronberg@charm.physics.ucsb.edu (Jeff Gronberg) writes...
>In article <1992Oct1.173943.22499@PA.dec.com>, stark@dwovax.enet.dec.com
>(Todd I. Stark) writes:
> 
>|> Also, keeping both feet on the ground at
>|> all times (a common principle in Aikido) is reinforced because of the 
>|> threat of getting a foot tangled in the material if you raise a foot
>|> and do any kind of skipping movement.   Ankle injuries made me acutely
>|> aware of this soon after I started wearing this thing as a customary part
>|> of the first Dan test in Aikido.  
>|> 
> 
>In the Ki Society style of aikido most motion involves hopping or
>skipping and there
>are rarely any people who trip over their hakamas.  It just takes a
>little getting used to.

Actually, no, Jeff, that's the background I come from.  I know what you mean, 
we used to call that kind of movement 'The Tohei Hop'  :-).  But that's not 
what I was talking about, that's a very conservative movement compared to the 
kind of 'hopping' done in TaeKwonDo, for example.  When you've been doing
Aikido for a few years, you might tend to forget how much the practice has
shaped your habitual movement patterns (for the better in most cases).  Also, 
unless you are in a very atypical branch of the Ki Society, you don't do many 
elaborate kicking movements or groundwork, so the point about hopping
is probably moot.

The point is that the restrictions I was referring to
aren't a matter of getting used to, they are physical limitations that result 
from and reflect a particular kind of footwork.  The problem of someone
tripping over their own feet and the hakama during conservative movements
is not that difficult to get used to in a few weeks or months, as you suggest,
but the implications of the conservative footwork are significant in your
personal fighting style.

>	Jeff

				thanks for your comments,

				todd
+-------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Todd I. Stark				  stark@dwovax.enet.dec.com |
| Digital Equipment Corporation		             (215) 354-1273 |
| VAX/VMS Software Support, Blue Bell, Pa.                          |
|    'Reason is no substitute for Passion, nor Passion for Reason.' |
+-------------------------------------------------------------------+
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: fcrary@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (Frank Crary)
Subject: Re: women MAs and Model Mugging
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1992 23:04:18 GMT

In article <1992Sep25.144600.7453@srg.srg.af.mil> schan@birch.srg.af.mil (Stephen Chan x4485) writes:
>>Three or four of the tougher fighters I know are women.
>>However, I would have to say that Andy's implicit message
>>about women in the martial arts seems to be more or
>>less accurate to me. It also appears to jibe with the
>>opinions of those tough women fighters I mentioned.

>	My sister was a collegiate fencer and says the same thing about female
>fencers - they generally have a weak fighting spirit. Of course, there are
>exceptions (my sister, for example, is an extremely aggressive fencer).

Another (quite admirable, in my opinion) exception showed up in a
local paper today: A woman and her friend were out jogging (I think) 
near Grand Junction, and were attacked, for unclear reasons, by a
gunman. Her friend was seriously hurt, but (despite two minor gunshot
wounds and being pregnant) she "grappled with" the attacker and
(apparently) drove him off, then hiked back to the highway to get
help.

                                                   Frank Crary
                                                   CU Boulder

Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: burdickd@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Dakin Burdick)
Subject: SURVEY RESPONSE SHEET
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1992 17:15:06 GMT

SURVEY FORM FOR RESPONSES:

Name:
Rank:
Style:
School Name & address:
Instructor:

Years of training needed to achieve black belt (average):

cost of training to black belt (including dojo fees and lower
rank belt tests; excluding uniform or equipment costs):

cost of black belt test:

benefits of black belt test:
	new uniform?
	fancy belt?
	free lessons?
	free special lessons?
	membership card?
	t-shirt, jacket, etc.?
	registration with national organization (which one?)
	registration with international organization (which one?)
	anything else?

new responsibilities of black belt:
	teaching?
	recruiting?
	massages for the master?
	gifts of cash for the master?
	etc.

Send responses to:

Dakin
burdickd@silver.ucs.indiana.edu
From: lchong@zeus.calpoly.edu (Leo Chong)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: My first tournament - pointers?
Date: 28 Sep 92 19:01:33 GMT
Organization: California Polytechnic State University, San Luis Obispo

In article <JON.92Sep28102222@zeus.med.utah.edu> jon@zeus.med.utah.edu (Jonathan Byrd) writes:
>In article <12883@ecs.soton.ac.uk> rit@ecs.soton.ac.uk (Richard Taylor) writes:
>
>   That's what I thought until I actually had to be a corner judge. I can't 
>   say it was the most enjoyable experience of my life :-(  Never again :-)
>
>richard is right; you must be a judge (or referee) to appreciate the
>difficulty involved.
>
>mentally, judging a free sparring match is like fighting two people.
>you must keep your perception sharp for long periods of time.  it is
>very tiring.
>

I just fought in the Jimmy Kim tournament in Long Beach, CA saturday night
and I was wondering, why can't judges give out points?  Just curious.

By the way, it was my first tournament and I fought as a heavy weight green
belt.  For some reason, it felt like I was in an amusement partk, waiting
in line for hours, going in for a ride of my life.  What was really weird
was that I got to know more than half of the people I was gonna fight with
and it was really cool that everyone was in a good spirit.  But once in the
ring, we become trained killers not functioning as a human being.  After I
got popped in the jaw by a fast roundhouse, I became desperate for points
and fought stupid and angrily.  After losing the fight, people gave me some
pointers and I was really glad that I had the chance to compete.  

A few pointers for those just starting out.

  1. Run the combinations through your head before the fight once in the ring 
     because once the fight begins, there is no time to think.
  2. Forget the crap you hear about attitude.  Attitude can make you fight
     stupid.  Fight smart.

lchong@athena.calpoly.edu
From: dsr@bnr.co.uk (D.S.Riches)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: The USA Team for the World Kuoshu Championships Needs Your Help
Date: 29 Sep 92 12:28:07 GMT
Reply-To: dsr@bnr.co.uk (D.S.Riches)
Organization: BNR Europe Limited, London Road, Harlow, Essex, GB

In the referenced article wwitt@adara.intel.com (Wolf Witt) writes:
>Would anybody like some toast? It's most certainly still hot, although
>some is actually a little burnt...
>
>In article <1992Sep25.194340.10210@eng.umd.edu> doug@eng.umd.edu
>(Douglas N. Cohen) writes:
>>In article <Bv27sy.52I@nntp-sc.Intel.COM> wwitt@adara.intel.com () writes:
>>

[Deleted Big blue flame from Doug who forgot to count to 10 before
posting. :-)]

>I suppose you're referring to the East-West team versus the whole USA team?
>At this point, you may be right. I probably should have made the message
>header more explicit. However, in the body of my message I tried to make it
>clear that my posting is specifically for the East-West team. More on this
>later...
>
>In any case, I intended no deception.

That's alright, I gathered that you posted specifically for the
East-West part of the USA team and not for the whole team :-)

>Yes, yes, it's just for the East-West team; I really thought that was clear.

It was, it was!

>
>>	< shameless agrandisement deleted >
>
>agrandisement? Hmm... I don't know this word (I'm not a native, you know)
>and neither does my office dictionary.

It's not known... but Aggrandisement is... it means "make appear
greater than the reality", he means you're exaggerating :-)

Dave

Oh, yes... I hope he comes back with some facts and figures.
   Dave Riches
   Email:  David.S.Riches@bnr.co.uk
   Smail:  BNR Europe Ltd, London Road,
           Harlow, Essex. CM17 9NA.  England
   Phone:  +44 (0)279-402496
   Fax:    +44 (0)279-451434
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: fengstad@xi.uleth.ca (Grant Fengstad)
Subject: Speaking of MA TV Series (Was Re: Kung Fu TV series)
Organization: University of Lethbridge
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1992 17:56:45 GMT

In article <8261@lee.SEAS.UCLA.EDU> achou@plasma.icsl.ucla.edu (Albert Chou) writes:
>In article <1992Oct1.131531.11084@bcrka451.bnr.ca> fwong@bnr.ca (Frank Wong) writes:
>>I haven't seen any info. out about it this fall. Maybe next year ?
>
>I read in the L.A. Times TV guide that Kung Fu will start in January.
>

I have also read the Chuck Norris will be making his TV premiere in
Spring of 1993 on CBS where he will play a Texas Ranger (shades of Lone
Wolf McQuade).

--
#====================================================================#
# Grant M. Fengstad		     E Mail:    fengstad@xi.Uleth.CA #
# Manager, Network Operations	     Voice:     (403) 382-6724       #
# Canadian Regional Airlines Ltd.    FAX:	(403) 327-1229       #
#====================================================================#
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: stark@dwovax.enet.dec.com (Todd I. Stark)
Subject: Re: (what should I carry ?)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Date:  5 OCT 92 09:35:42    


fcrary@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (Frank Crary) writes...
> 
>I just realized when I read this, that the spear thrust I've seen 
>taught with bagua/xingyi/taiji weapons sets is extremely similar
>to a good 9 Ball break. The bridge is quite different, but the rest
>is the same...
> 

I was taught the underhand thrust for an AikiJo kata using the analogy
of a pool break also, although the movement was much wider and the
body mechaniscs of course much different.

							todd
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: ddukhovn@nyx.cs.du.edu (The Great Harlequin)
Subject: Re: Cost Differences???
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Keywords:  Old Ways
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 92 18:48:23 GMT

Actually, I whole-heartedly approve of interschool competition.  What about the
rest of you?
From: wen@husc4.harvard.edu (Alvin Wen)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: one to ten in korean
Date: 6 Oct 92 20:33:44 GMT
Article-I.D.: husc3.1992Oct6.163345.16125
Organization: Dovetail Systems

In article <1992Oct6.173955.19315@exu.ericsson.se> exudms@exu.ericsson.se writes:
>In article M25@apollo.hp.com, stave@apollo.hp.com (Joel H. Stave) writes:
>->In article <XoF7RB2w165w@bluemoon.rn.com>, miller@bluemoon.rn.com (John
>->Miller) writes:
>->|> 1 = IL (ill)
>->|> 2 = YI (ee as in week, no Y sound)
>->|> 3 = SAM (sahm and in samba)
>->|> 4 = SAH (sah as in sahm without the m)
>->|> 5 = OH (long O sound)
>->|> 6 = YOOK (oo as in kookie NOT cookie)
>->|> 7 = CHIL (as as CH + IL from above)
>->|> 8 = PAL (hard P, ahl as in all)
>->|> 9 = KU (koo as in kookie)
>->|> 10 = SHIP (sheep, but abrupt vowel sound)
>->
>->I'm pretty sure that what you have here is first, second, third, forth, etc
>->rather than one, two, three, four, etc
>->
>->Joel Stave
>->stave@apollo.hp.com
>
>I'm shure that 1, 2, 3, etc. should be "Hana", "Dool", "Set", etc.
>
>/New Dave

John Miller has written down the "Chinese"-origin numbers, which are used
for large numbers and when enumerating things.  9 should be "GU (goo as in
gooey)", not "KU".

The "native" Korean numbers, and the numbers that my TKD instructor used
to make us do repetitions, are:

1 hana

2 dul   ("dool")

3 set

4 net
     _       _
5 dasot (the o is approximately a schwa e, as in bug)

   _ _
6 yosot

7 ilgob

   _ _
8 yodolb (the b is unpronounced)

9 ahob
    _
10 yold (the d is unpronounced)

-- 
Alvin Wen, Dovetail Interface Consulting                   wen@husc.harvard.edu
  Rapid development of high-quality user interfaces under the X Window System
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: chungy2@aix.rpi.edu (Yau Felix Chung)
Subject: Isshiryu Katas
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 04:05:08 GMT

Hello all!  Could anyone tell me if there are any books instructing the
different katas in Isshinryu like there are in TKD and Tai Chi?  Also,
any videos on Isshiryu from the masters?

To save net space, please send responses to chungy2@rpi.edu

Thank you in advance.

-F.

Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: schan@birch.srg.af.mil (Stephen Chan x4485)
Subject: Re: Tai Chi Basic Movements (Was : Re: A few questions about T'ai Chi..)
Organization: SRG, Arinc Research Corp., Annapolis, MD
Date: Mon, 05 Oct 92 18:41:31 GMT
Keywords: Wardoff, Rollback, Press, Push, Open, Close

In article <1aids7INNmei@agate.berkeley.edu> robinson@cogsci.Berkeley.EDU (Michael Robinson) writes:
>Some of the comments in this thread make me wonder whether there are a bunch
>of people out there practicing Chen style as some sort of funny looking Yang
>style.

	Could be - but I read an interview somewhere where Chen Xiaowang
claimed that the principles of Yang and Chen were essentially thew same.

>  The principles and application of Chen style are essentially helical
>(twining) and the principles and application of Yang style are essentially
>cylindrical (reeling silk).

	It does seem to me that most of the Yang stylists I've seen don't
have much coiling in their motion, but I have met teachers who do teach
coiling in Yang. I don't see it as such a big conceptual leap though. Go to
any striking style, and you'll see it (Chen just seems to take to a finer
granularity).

	Anyone want to speculate on why coiling has gone out of Yang? My
understanding is that the coiling motion is used to get extra penetration for
strikes (just like rotating the fist in a Karate punch) - perhaps the
de-emphasis in Yang of strikes has caused this? Maybe that's why "fa-jing" is
such a big secret, huh?



--
	Stephen Chan
	uunet!srg!schan or uunet!srg!schan@uunet.uu.net
From: plc@vax5.cit.cornell.edu
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: one to ten in korean
Date: 6 Oct 92 10:58:40 EDT
Distribution: rec
Organization: Cornell University

In article <XoF7RB2w165w@bluemoon.rn.com>,
miller@bluemoon.rn.com (John Miller) writes: 
> jmw1@ra.msstate.edu (John Westerburg) writes:
> 
>>    If some kind soul out there could post or mail me the Korean 
>> words (with pronunciation) for the numbers one through ten, I would
>> be greatly appreciative.  Not to mention it being good karma.....
>> 
> 
> 1 = IL (ill)
> 2 = YI (ee as in week, no Y sound)
> 3 = SAM (sahm and in samba)
> 4 = SAH (sah as in sahm without the m)
> 5 = OH (long O sound)
> 6 = YOOK (oo as in kookie NOT cookie)
> 7 = CHIL (as as CH + IL from above)
> 8 = PAL (hard P, ahl as in all)
> 9 = KU (koo as in kookie)
> 10 = SHIP (sheep, but abrupt vowel sound)
> 
> All Korean words are very abrupt.  Try to avoid leaving vowels hang.  This 
> might be tough for southerners (I'm from Keentuuucky myself).  For 
> example, it's ILL as abruptly as possible.  You probably just hafta hear a 
> Korean do it to really understand just HOW abrupt.
> 
> John Miller (my Korean wife was very explicit about the pronounciations)
> 
>  This is from
>      miller@bluemoon.rn.com
> who doesn't have his (or her) own obnoxious signature yet

Hmmmm....

I thought that these were the ordinal numbers; i.e. first, second, third, etc.
At least, these form part of the names of the Tae Guk series of poomse, which I
understood to indicate first form, second form, and so on.
That is, Tae Guk Ill Chang, Tae Guk Yi Chang, Tae Guk Sam Chang...

When we count in Korean at the dojang, it goes something like
1. Hana (emphasis on second syllable, a is in father
2. Dool (rhymes with cool, sort of. Don't hang on the l sound though.)
3. Sec (c is not aspirated; you just sort of stop the vowel sound without
strongly sounding the c)
4. Nec (same as above)
5. Dasot (a as in father, o as in boat? sort of. Again, don't aspirate the t)
6. Yasot (rhymes with Dasot)
7. Illgop (I as in ee, o as in Dasot, don't aspirate the p. I think I've seen
it spelled Illgob too.)
8. Yodol (o as in dasot, yasot, etc.)
9. Ah Hop (a as in father, o as dasot, yasot, etc.)
10. Yeol (I'm even less clear on this one than on the others...to me it sounds
like the American Yo! with an l on the end.)

BIG caveat... these are my interpretations of what my Korean roommate is trying
to teach me, and I know that I don't pronounce them correctly yet. Also, I'm
not sure of the english spellings of the above. If other people post on
this topic it'll be interesting to see how they describe the Korean words...

Please let me know if you have any corrections or hints.

Pat 

P. Cleveland
Dept. of Pharmacology
Cornell University
pc11@cornell.edu
plc@vax5.cit.cornell.edu
From: david@xlnt.com (David Johnson)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: A few questions about T'ai Chi..
Date: 29 Sep 92 23:08:00 GMT
Organization: XLNT Designs, Inc (XDI)

In article <1992Sep29.143429.4472@srg.srg.af.mil>, schan@birch.srg.af.mil (Stephen Chan x4485) writes:
|> In article <1204@xlnt.COM> david@xlnt.com (David Johnson) writes:
|> >what did he do with the more physically demanding techniques.  I find it
|> >hard to believe that he just discarded them.  Some have said my teacher
|> >is wrong but he makes sense.  I do not think Yang Cheng-fu would just
|> >throw those techniques away.
|> 
|> 	Well, the way I understand it, teachers have their "closed door"
|> students, who are given the whole system, and then the rest of their students
|> who receive something less - either because they lack the inclination/ability
|> to appreciate it, or they have dubious loyalty to the teacher.
|>	This is the case in classical Japanese ryu, which have their shoden and
|>(I think it's called) hiden. Why should it be any different in Chinese schools?

This does not contradict my hypothesis.  The techniques are still around
just not taught to everyone.  I believe the Chinese segregate their
students at least as much as the Japanese.  I might be wrong but it is
only my opinion.

My teacher said his teacher was pretty notorious for
this.  Unless you got on his good side you will learn very little.
Group classes were mostly conditioning workouts.  The real teaching
and learning were only for a few students after midnight.  To even
be accepted as a student in the group workout you had to pass a few mind games.
I doubt those methods would work in the US assuming you wanted students.

Back to the subject of histories:
I am convinced that martial arts histories are pretty unreliable.  I have
seen many things in print that are contradictory.  I will take my
teacher's history lesson with a grain of salt along with anything else
I hear or read about the history or the martial arts.  The histories
are interesting regardless of the percentage of fiction they may contain.

-- 
David Johnson
XLNT Designs, Inc. (XDI)
david@xlnt.com
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: aj6924234@ntuvax.ntu.ac.sg
Subject: <None>
Summary: Pakua Chang
Keywords: Pakua
Organization: Nanyang Technological University - Singapore
Distribution: rec.martial-arts
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 08:25:18 GMT

I have recently taken up a short introductory course on Pakua Chang.
However, I was unable to get the teacher to elaborate on the practical 
applications of the various "palms" and the fighting strategies usually
employed by Pakua Chang practioners.
Would look forward to any info re: a/m.
Thanks.


James Heng
Singapore.
From: osborn@socs.uts.edu.au (Tom Osborn)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Question: Shi Palgue.
Date: 6 Oct 92 05:23:33 GMT
Organization: Computing Sciences, Uni of Technology, Sydney.

I've read a little about Shi Palgue - an internal Korean MA. I can't find
out any information on it's connection with older Chinese styles. Any info?

Tomasso.
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: lund@ssd.kodak.com (Nate Lund)
Subject: Re: Aikido-U.S. & Japan
Organization: Eastman Kodak
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 92 07:19:26 GMT

In article <1992Sep29.163107.21255@cs.rose-hulman.edu> acharya@HYDRA.ROSE-HULMAN.EDU writes:

>[...]

>while on the subject of kicks, how do our friends in aikijujutsu deal with
>them? andy? anyone?

Quite thoroughly.  :-)

Beyond that, I am not at liberty to discuss.  :-)

>
>-mukund

Nate
nlund@kodak.com

PS  To the individual that described Aiki Jujutsu as being "over engineered",
    as an engineer, that is the best complement I have ever heard.  :-D
    NL