HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.arabic
Subject: Re: Quote of the week.
Date: 23 Dec 1992 20:01:54 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: slc5.ins.cwru.edu



	JERUSALEM (UPI) ....
	``The Arabs are boiling mad right now. It will be a miracle if (the
authorities) can pull this off without bloodshed,'' said Jan Willem
Vanderhoeven, spokesman for the International Christian Embassy, an
evangelical organization based in Jerusalem.
	``I prayed this morning that God will protect the Jews and the
Christians,'' he said.
     
      Apparently nobody has noticed this, but the deportations were 
  because of bloodshed.  Somehow this little fact is not considered    
  relevant in Mr. Vanderhoeven's assessment of the situation.  Many
  Jews have already been killed.  There has already been bloodshed.
  But maybe Mr. Vanderhoeven does not regard the killing of Jews to
  be bloodshed.

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: cubsfan@camelot.bradley.edu (Michael Silverman)
Subject: Re: Israeli Nazism? (Re: The Hadith
Organization: Priests of the Temples of Syrinx
Date: 27 Dec 92 05:35:02 GMT

In <1483500313@igc.apc.org> Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org> writes:


>Israel has not deported terrorists, but ALLEGED terrorists. The
>difference is crucial. A civilized country does not punish people without
>due trial. These people, while perhaps members in HAMAS, were not
>brought to a trial and not charged for any criminal offens. A person
>who has not been properly convicted after due process is deemed 
>innocent. This at least is the rule of law in civilized countries.

Such as Syria, Iraq, and Saudi Arabia, of course.

>I wish Israel would emulate Western democratic countries rather than
>kenguro-courts of military dictatorships. Those who are friends of
>Israel and the Jewish people, should redouble their efforts in
>bringing Israel to the fold of the civilized world rather than
>defending what is utterly immoral and illegal.

Israel isn't perfect but is a hell of alot more "civilized" than
any Arab country when it comes to human rights, etc.  Everything
is relative. I'd like to see how "civilized" a western democracy
would remain if it had to put up with the shit Israel does from
its neighbors. Hell, look at British behavior in North Ireland, and
the "terrorist" there don't even threaten British existance.

>The success of Hamas, by the way, can be attributed to a great
>extent to the refusal of Israel's leaders to come to terms with
>the legitimate grievances of the Palestinian people. If Israel would
>recognize the wrong it inflicted on the P. people and attempt to
>repair the wrong, Hamas would be put out of a job.

What "legitiame government of the Palestinian people?"
The PLO?

--
cubsfan@camelot.bradley.edu

"One likes to believe in the freedom of baseball" - Geddy Lee
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.rights.human
From: astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein)
Subject: Re: Israeli Expulsion of 418 Palestinians
Organization: NYSERNet, Inc.
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 03:55:03 GMT

eggertj@moses.atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert x6127 g41) writes:


>What's wrong with you?  Can't you tell right from wrong?  Rounding up
>and deporting innocents is wrong.  Even if it seems expedient, it is
>still wrong.

You are quite right about that.

On the other hand, in the case of the Hamas terrorists, we're not
talking about innocents.
-- 
Alan H. Stein   -----  AJIN   -----  astein@israel.nysernet.org
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:24194 talk.politics.soviet:10018 soc.culture.greek:11906 soc.culture.europe:10836 soc.history:10404 soc.culture.soviet:11603
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,soc.history,soc.culture.soviet
Followup-To: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: More on "Ron Evans" jokes.
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 92 17:58:42 EST
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world

In article <42879@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> revans@euclid.ucsd.edu (Ron Evans) writes:

>	And the Kurds should demand the demilitarization of
>	Turkey, Iran, and Iraq.

C'mon, you still haven't corrected yourself. While we are at it, though, 
did you know that Turks are either a majority or the second largest 
ethnic group in many Northern Iraq provinces? For example, there are 
450,000 Turks in Musul (40% of population); 215,000 in Erbil (35%);
400,000 in Kerkuk (75%); 300,000 in Selahattin (60%); and 220,000
in Diyala Province (33%). There are a total of 2.5 million Turks
in Iraq, compared to 3 million Kurds. Yet Germany, which mobilized
all its resources for the PKK, does not yet even acknowledge the
existence of Turks in Iraq. Furthermore, had the Sevres Treaty
been implemented, the fate of the Kurds would have been far worse 
than under the Turkish Republic. Having concluded that the Kurds
could not govern themselves within the interest of the West, the
British advised long ago that a Kurdish mandate would be necessary
and that 'the Kurds would be ruled by force.' (Foreign Office 424/106).
Given that the Kurdish insurgency in Turkiye has taken tens of
thousands of innocent Turkish lives over the century, one can
legitimately question whether under Western colonial methods
the Kurds might have been subjected to some form of apartheid.
In contrast, under Turkish rule, the Kurds enjoyed economic 
equality and equal status as Turkish citizens united under one
nation for the well-being of the Turkish Republic.

Serdar Argic

                     'This war quickly developed into one of extermination. 
                      We closed the roads and mountain passes that might 
                      serve as ways of escape for the Tartars [Turks] and 
                      then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)
From: Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org>
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Date: 26 Dec 92 15:40 PST
Subject: Re: israel & hamas
Nf-ID: #R:1992Dec26.1777.21582@channel1:-1377933269:cdp:1483500312:000:846
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!cpr    Dec 26 15:40:00 1992


TO: Wayne, Mcguire
I read your comments about Israel and Hamas. You are very kind to
'allow' the natives of Palestine, the Palestinians, some sort
of demilitarized autonomy, a sort of super-reservation. This is
indeed generous !!!

I thought that the base for a just peace is that everybody would
be entitled to the same civil and political rights, without regard to
creed, religion or nationalorigin.

I don't see the reason why Palestinians should not demand the
demilitarization of Israel, as a measure of protecting their security.
As much as I know,Israel has expelled hundreds of thousands of 
Palestinians from their land, and not the other way round. As long as
people, like you, behave condescendingly towards Palestinians, by
failing to demand for them unconditional equal rights as human beings,
there will be resentment and no peace.
From: astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Israeli soldiers kill Palestinian boy
Date: 26 Dec 92 19:57:32 GMT
Organization: NYSERNet, Inc.

jle@lear.bos.locus.com (John Elghani) writes:

>>Hamas and the PLO have been murdering each other for several years and
>>now the PLO is actually standing IN SUPPORT of the Hamas terrorists
>>who have been expelled and who were PLO murder targets just last week.
>>It's not unreasonable to assume that they will again be PLO murder
>>targets next week, too.  And you are blaming Israel for "perpetuating 
>>division" among Arabs?  Can't you take blame for ANY of your own
>>problems? 

>Of course differences are expected to happen when one side
>says I am willing to settle for minor controll over 20% of my land ,
>and the other says I want my entire right.

Ironically, you've hit upon the crux of the entire problem.

In 1948, the UN voted to repartition Palestine, dividing between the
Jews and Arabs the quarter that had not been separated by the British.
The Jews reluctantly agreed to settle for the 12-15% the partition
would have left them with, but the Arabs refused, insisting on getting
all of Palestine--85% was not enough for them.
-- 
Alan H. Stein   -----  AJIN   -----  astein@israel.nysernet.org
From: aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Shaqeeqa)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Exile Camp Shelled
Date: 4 Jan 93 03:17:58 GMT
Organization: University of Colorado at Denver

In article <1993Jan3.152510.7019@ncsu.edu> hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU (Brad Hernlem) writes:
>
>According to the BBC (0400 UTC 3-1-93), shells originating from within
>the Israeli zone of occupation in Lebanon fell around the perimeter of
>the Palestinian exiles' make-shift camp yesterday.

Kinda makes you wonder if they are losing their touch, huh?  :}

Maybe they are trying to destroy the snakes that the Palestinians
are forced to eat nowadays ... ?

Anisa
	"The best kind - angry, rebellious, critical - a renegade ..."

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.rights.human
From: backon@vms.huji.ac.il
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: israel's future
Date: 20 Dec 92 21:44:32 GMT
Distribution: talk,world
Organization: The Hebrew University of Jerusalem

In article <1992Dec17.1777.21189@channel1>, "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com> writes:
> To: Josh Backon
>
>  JB> Do you know what it takes to get a building permit in Israel????
>  JB> What takes one day in America takes 6  months here.
>
> This is another issue of significance: Israel's addiction to
> discredited socialist ideas, statism, and rampant bureaucratitis.
> Despite repeated promises to privatize its economy, Israel has
> made little progress in opening up its society to free market
> forces.

Heart attack time. I *actually* agree with Wayne Mcguire.


>
> Israel has four major problems on its plate: reducing the power
> of religious nationalists,

Delete the word nationalists and you're correct.


> jettisoning socialism, abandoning the
> military occupation and working out a decent living arrangement
> with the Palestinians, and weaning itself off gargantuan
> infusions of American aid. Achieving the status of the world's
> supreme schnorrer state is not what the founders of Zionism had
> in mind for Israel when they started their program.
>

Agree totally.

> Unless Israel can solve these problems real soon, I don't think
> it, or Zionism, has much of a realistic future. Americans in
> particular are fast losing patience in dealing with this mess. We
> have other priorities, domestically and worldwide.
> ---
>  ~ OLX 3.0 31-2557 ~ In two words: im-possible.
> --

Josh
backon@VMS.HUJI.AC.IL
> Channel 1 (R)   Cambridge, MA
>
From: aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Shaqeeqa)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Resisting occupation
Date: 25 Dec 92 00:08:24 GMT
Organization: University of Colorado at Denver

In article <1992Dec24.035917.0156735@locus.com> jle@lear.bos.locus.com (John Elghani) writes:
>
>Brad "Ali" Hernlem (hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU)
>       ^
>        \______________ For Jake :-) 
>                        And for all you who have been wondering.
 
But is it AliAkbar or just Ali?  :-))

Anisa
From: bill@cognet.ucla.edu (William M. Eldridge)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: nazi beer gardens
Date: 23 Dec 92 20:38:09 GMT
Distribution: talk
Organization: UCLA Cognitive Science Research Program

stephen@watson.princeton.edu () writes:

>I don't support the deportations, Wayne, but the truth is that any other 
>Western democratic nation would have acted identically.

By deporting legal citizens?  How do you get this?


>The Western world will always pay attention to Israel as a stabilizing 
>force in the region especially when Egypt and other neighbors
>inevitably setup fundamentalist regimes with jihad-happy campers running
>them.

Egypt has a fundamentalist regime?  Jordan?  Iraq?  Inevitability?
Go back to your cave.



-- 
{{{{ bill eldridge           310-206-3960                x                }}}}
{{{{ bill@cognet.ucla.edu    310-206-3987 fax           xxx              }}}}
{{{{ ~more, ~better, ~faster [80's motto]                x              }}}}
{{{{ ~hot, ~toxic, and ~shallow [90's motto]                              }}}}
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.arabic
From: maler@pelvoux.imag.fr (Maler)
Subject: A pragmatic view of the deportation
Organization: IMAG Institute, University of Grenoble, France
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 15:48:01 GMT

When Israel will withdraw from some part of the occupied 
territories, there would be an inter-palestinian struggle 
for getting into power. Nobody wants the extreme islamists
to win. If the deportation will, in some sense, contribute
to the victory of the mainstream PLO over the islamists
than it is a historically positive act, regardless of the
personal sorrow one may feel towards the deported and their
families.

It is very stupid to judge such events against the standards 
of those parts of the world where borders have already been 
established and ethnic conflicts settled, either by clear
separation, assimilation or genocyde - as has been the case
in western Europe and north America. 


-- 
===============================================================
Oded Maler, LGI-IMAG (Campus), B.P. 53x, 38041 Grenoble, France
Phone:  76635846  Fax: 76446675   e-mail: maler@vercors.imag.fr
===============================================================
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: jle@lear.bos.locus.com (John Elghani)
Subject: Re: Palestinian deportees turned back by Lebanese
Organization: LC
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 08:34:06 GMT

In article <166@jcpltyo.JCPL.CO.JP> ohayon@jcpltyo.JCPL.CO.JP (Tsiel Ohayon) writes:
>In article <1992Dec19.080927.0106556@locus.com> John Elghani the brilliant 
>writes:
>
>[JLE] Below is a description of the HUMANITARIAN and PEACFULL acts of the
>[JLE] HUMANITARIAN and PEACE LOVING state of Israel.  A UPI article:


FULL-DUPLEX SUPER SARCASTICS.  WE COULD FOOL ALOT WITH OUT SARCASM!!.

>
>I see you have finally seen the light. The world is not such a bad place after
>all. There is still hope ...
>
>If Israel had been an Arab country, there would now be 400 families, if not 
>more, mourning ... 
>
>Tsiel
>-- 
>----8<--------------------------------------------------------------->8------
>Tsiel:ohayon@jcpl.co.jp	   | If you do not receive this E-mail, please let me
>Employer may not have same | know as soon as possible, if possible.
>opinions, if any !         | Two percent of zero is almost nothing.


Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:23936 talk.politics.soviet:9920 soc.culture.greek:11791 soc.culture.europe:10725 soc.history:10330 soc.culture.soviet:11445 soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna:942 soc.culture.iranian:11116
From: niepornt@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (David Marc Nieporent)
Subject: Re: Occupation
Originator: news@nimaster
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 09:33:14 GMT

In <1992Dec20.232926.27970@netcom.com> zmbenhal@netcom.com (Zeyd M. Ben-Halim) writes:
>In article <42741@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> revans@euclid.ucsd.edu (Ron Evans) writes:
>><1992Dec20.053857.20960@netcom.com> zmbenhal@netcom.com (Zeyd M. Ben-Halim):

>>If you think that the UN is picking on Israel it is because it is
>>the ONLY occupying force in the world today.

>>	Wrong.  Syria, Iran, Iraq, and Turkey are occupying
>>	Kurdistan.  The PKK (the Kurdish version of the PLO)
>>	seeks to make Kurdistan an autonomous Kurdish state.
>>	In the last eight years, over 3700 people have died
>>	in clashes with the PKK in Turkey alone.

>BZZZZT! WRONG! Kurdistan was not invaded by all of those states and occupied.
>Residents in those areas are CITIZENS of the respective countries. They have
>the same rights as the rest of the population (which is not saying much in
>most of the ME :-(.

Not only is it damning with faint praise, it isn't even true.  They
don't have the right to speak their own language, or to be taught in it.

And that's pretty much an artificial distinction.  Would you be
satisfied if Israel simply annexed the West Bank/Gaza and made the
Palestinians living there citizens?  Would most Palestinians?  

Do you think most Palestinians would no longer consider the Israelis
occupiers?

And what makes you say that Kurdistan wasn't invaded by those states
anyway?  What do you call sending troops to an area and declaring it
part of your country, if not an invasion?

-- 
David M. Nieporent   | Is it too early to start making predictions for 1993?
niepornt@phoenix.    | Probably, but that never stopped me before.
   princeton.edu     | ALE: Baltimore ALW: Chicago NLE: Montreal NLW: Atlanta
Baltimore Orioles 93 | AL MVP: Cal Ripken  AL Cy Young: Mike Mussina
From: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Solutions to the problem? (was Re: Sgt-Mgr
Date: 28 Dec 1992 03:50:17 GMT
Organization: Australian National University
Distribution: world
Reply-To: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au
NNTP-Posting-Host: 150.203.23.70

In article 10894@colorado.edu, perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (Eric S. Perlman) writes:
>In article <1992Dec20.100942.7948@netcom.com> zmbenhal@netcom.com (Zeyd M. Ben-Halim) writes:
>>In article <1992Dec19.171726.27595@ncsu.edu> hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU (Brad Hernlem) writes:

>>>I believe that the best resolution of the "Israeli/Palestinian problem"
>>>would be the formation of one Israel with native Palestinians living
>>>side by side with Jews in peace. I do not see this likely when the

>>This was the palestenian position for a long time, one secular state including
>>jews, moslems, and christians all with equal rights.Unfortunatly, this will
>>eventually lead to the country not being the "jewish state" as the arabs have
>>a larger birth rate than the jews. Only mass imports of russian jewry to
>>Israel has reversed this trend lately.

>Not exactly.  This is what the PLO charter says, but the fact is that it
>also says that Jews who returned to their homeland and now live in
>Israel must leave.  And during the Israeli war of Independence, in 1948,
>Hajj Amin al-Husseini, the Palestinian leader, had similarly draconian
>ideas:  he had worked actively with the Nazis during World War II, and
>shared many of their ideas concerning Jews.

Presumably you mean the Palestine National Covenant (1968).  A Palestinian
is defined recursively to be an Arab who lived in Palestine in 1947, or a 
Jew who lived there in 1917, or anyone with a Palestinian father.  That
would rule out the majority of Jews who lived in Palestine in 1947.
However, Zeyd did not mention the PLO.  He is correct about Arab 
proposals from earlier times, but the position hardened gradually
from 1948-9 to 1968.  As to al-Husseini, if you have any knowledge
of what "draconian ideas" he had in 1948, you are yet to prove it.

Brendan.

>     Eric S. Perlman 				 <perlman@qso.colorado.edu>
From: "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com>
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: nazi beer gardens
Date: 22 Dec 92 07:06:40 EST
Reply-To: "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com>
Distribution: talk
Organization: Channel 1 Communications

To: Chris Metcalfe

Chris,

I really enjoyed your Nazi beer garden message. I mean that
sincerely: it was quite amusing, and you may have a touch of
literary talent.

Probably these days from a practical public relations standpoint,
however, it is not entirely prudent for militant pro-Israelists
like yourself to bring up Nazi imagery.

After all, which nation these days is using mass deportations
against an "alien race" in its midst in order to protect "state
security"? Which nation as a regular practice uses collective
punishment as a tool to terrorize and keep down nearly 2 million
people? Which nation is headed by a leader who not long ago
ranted about an "Iron Fist" policy (what a Nazilike ring there!)?
Which nation was recently headed by a leader who sought to
cooperate with the Nazis on the basis of their common values and
goals? Which nation is obsessed with winning more sacred
Lebensraum to fulfill the mystical racial destiny of its people?

Oh yes, particularly in light of the recent mass deportations,
Israeli supporters would not be wise to introduce Nazi metaphors
into current political debate.

My own politics are strictly libertarian. When I say that
emotional American supporters of Israel are going to be in for a
rude shock if they continue on their current sleepwalking path
over the cliff, what I mean is that they are going to wake up
some day and suddenly realize that Israeli extremists have
dragged them so far out of the American mainstream that Americans
no longer pay them any mind or honor their requests for
extraordinary levels of financial aid and endless loving
attention. I am most certainly not advocating the violation of
the human rights of anyone. I think that all groups should be
given unlimited scope to make fools of themselves so long as they
do not violate the rights of others.

Israel and its supporters are in the process of marginalizing
themselves in the Western democratic world, with the result that
they will be treated as a joke, when they are paid attention to
at all. There is no moral imperative that dictates that Americans
have to listen respectfully to ranting militant nationalists of
any stripe. We can always exercise our right to shut them out of
our lives, much as we might shun the religious fanatics at the
airports. They can talk, but we won't be listening. Increasingly
they will be ranting to themselves alone.

Israel could still pull itself out of its nosedive, but the
prognosis looks dismal.
---
  OLX 3.0 31-2557  messianists: will blow up the world if laughed at
--
Channel 1 (R)   Cambridge, MA

Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:24195 talk.politics.soviet:10019 soc.culture.greek:11907 soc.culture.europe:10837 soc.history:10405 soc.culture.soviet:11604 news.admin.policy:919
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,soc.history,soc.culture.soviet,news.admin.policy
Followup-To: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: "news.admin.policy" afraid of "ASALA/SDPA/ARF Terrorism Triangle"?
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 92 18:00:25 EST
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world

In article <root.725486928@maui> kbibb@maui.qualcomm.com (Ken Bibb) writes:

>I think you have me to thank for that :-/  I complained to
>postmaster@anatolia.mn.org that the posts were inappropriate for
>news.admin.policy and he said that he would remove them.

But why not create a newsgroup called "soc.culture.x-soviet-armenia"? 
Are you afraid of the ASALA/SDPA/ARF Terrorism Triangle? 



Serdar Argic

                     'This war quickly developed into one of extermination. 
                      We closed the roads and mountain passes that might 
                      serve as ways of escape for the Tartars [Turks] and 
                      then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)

Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:24096 soc.culture.arabic:5910
From: gwydion@gnu.ai.mit.edu (Mercenary Programmer)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.arabic
Subject: Re: The Hadith about Muslims killing the Jews / Hamas vs. Sunnah
Date: 23 Dec 92 03:20:04 GMT
Organization: Free Software Foundation
NNTP-Posting-Host: spiff.gnu.ai.mit.edu

In article <4582@bimacs.BITNET> ehrlich@bimacs.BITNET (Gideon Ehrlich) writes:

>In this case I must support Mazen . A basic Islamic principle is
>
>        DEIN MOHAMED B'SEIF
>
>Dein       law of
>Mohamed    Mohamed
>B'seif     With a sword
>
>The principle mean: You should distribute the Islamic faith by killing
>those who refuse accepting it.


You should read a book.  It is called "The Protocols
of the Elders of Zion."  What?  You do not like my
recommendation?  But they had as much right to tell
us about Jews as you have to tell us about Muslims.

Basalat Ali Raja.