From: altheimm@nextnet.ccs.csus.edu (Murray Altheim)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Does God Exist?  And proof of existence!
Date: 26 Aug 92 06:26:20 GMT
Organization: California State University: Sacramento

In article <Aug.19.00.11.04.1992.14382@athos.rutgers.edu> rsteele@adam.ll.mit.edu (Rob Steele) writes:
>In article <Aug.11.02.47.01.1992.12777@aramis.rutgers.edu>  
>stehman@hubcap.clemson.edu (Jeff Stehman) writes:
>> >Matter itself is not the great first cause...
> 
>> I've heard this one from many, many people, and I've never understood  
>it.
>> Why are so many people capable of believing in a creator that has always
>> existed, yet incapable of accepting that matter might have always  
>existed?
>
>In either case you are faced with a mystery.  I find the mystery of a  
>uncreated God more exciting somehow than that of an uncreated universe.   
>But that's not an argument.  I was reading Peter Kreeft's excellent  
>summary of Aquinas the other day and St. Thomas adduced an interesting  
>"proof" of the existence of God (I quote "proof" because I don't  
>understand logic well enough to feel comfortable with it unquoted.)
>
>I paraphrase from memory:
>
>o Given infinite time, all possible configurations of things will occur.
>o One possible configuration of things is that nothing exist.
>o Having once occurred, nothing else could ever exist afterward.
>o Things exist, therefore time and things had a beginning and are finite.

I always wonder WHY people believe they can prove the existence of a God from
a purely logical argument.

Line 1:
I don't really need to address lines 2 through 4, as the base assumption of
this argument is already faulty. In any system of a given complexity, the
information required to describe that complexity is many more orders of 
magnitude greater than the system itself. In other words, given "x" amount
of time, the POSSIBILITIES of configurations grows.  Therefore, even given
infinite time, the possible configurations always outnumber their descriptors.

Beyond that, there is no essential proof that all possible configurations of
things will occur due to natural limits.  For example, if something is 
impossible, no amount of time passing makes it possible, unless circumstance
changes to make it possible. There are innumerable examples of this that 
expose the fault in this logic.

Line 2:  Yes, a POSSIBLE configuration is that nothing exists. This has no
logical relation or consequence of or from Line 1.

Line 3: I find no logical reason for this statement, nor for the second part
of the statement. Because nothing exists at one time does not logically 
follow that that circumstance is unchanging.      

Line 4: Because things exist now certainly shows that those things exist,
and a proof of their current existence would be logically valid, but as to
the argument over whether they had a beginning or end, there is no logical
connection to the past or future. As data regarding the extreme past and the
future is still beyond our technological limits (especially in the possible
case of a cyclic universe) there is no basis for this assumption.


A logical argument can be supported by a number of clauses, each of which
must hold true for the argument to be sustained. It is possible that any 
clause may hold the whole proof for the argument (thus the others are in
error and/or superfluous). 

This argument is not supported by the clauses as a group, nor by any of the
individual clauses.

I always find logic a poor excuse for the proof of any non-emperical 
entity anyway. Logic exists in the mind. And as the mind is capable of
great abstraction, there are only imaginational limits to its creativity.
However, the relation between imagination and reality is tenuous at best.

Murray

-- 
Murray M. Altheim      "Ils ont l'orteil de Bouc, & d'un Chevreil l'oreille,
Instructional Consultant    La corne d'un Chamois, & la face vermeille
CSU, Sacramento          Comme un rouge Croissant: & dancent toute nuict
altheimm@csus.edu       Dedans un carrefour, ou pres d'une eau qui bruict."