HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (Eric S. Perlman)
Subject: Re: FACTS EVERY ISRAEL BASHER MUST AVOID!
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 17:26:47 GMT

In article <23983@castle.ed.ac.uk> egpv29@castle.ed.ac.uk (JHenderson) writes:
>In article <1992Jul20.212300.28515@colorado.edu> perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (Eric S. Perlman) writes:
>=>In article <23909@castle.ed.ac.uk> egpv29@castle.ed.ac.uk (JHenderson) writes:
>=>>In article <1992Jul17.235748.4621@colorado.edu> perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (Eric S. Perlman) writes:
>=>>=>In article <23845@castle.ed.ac.uk> egpv29@castle.ed.ac.uk (JHenderson) writes:
>=>>=>>In article <1992Jul16.221701.8030@midway.uchicago.edu> rivk@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>=>>=>>
>=>>=>>=>>So what...???? Does it make it more acceptable because it's in the
>=>>=>>=>>past???  
>=>>=>>=>
>=>>=>>=>No, it makes it a whole lot less relevant to the present situation that
>=>>=>>
>=>>=>>
>=>>=>>And the Jews were persecuted by the Romans *when*?
>=>>=>
>=>>=>Comparing the two is downright sick, Henderson.  When Jews were thrown
>=>>=>out of our homeland by the Romans, hundreds of thousands were
>=>>=>slaughtered and even more sold into slavery.  I think you need a big
>=>>=>dose of perspective.
>=>>
>=>>...or just a loan of your double standard.
>=>
>=>Excuse me, Jeremy, then please answer one simple question: 
>=>
>=>How is it a double standard to mention that it's sick to compare
>=>isolated incidents numbering on the order of 10 with the slaughter and
>=>enslavement of a nation of millions, including (according to Flavius
>=>Josephus) over 600K deaths?  
>
>A nation of millions? The order of ten? Where do you get these figures from?
>You think the Israelis have only killed 10 Palestinians? You think 
>Bethlehem was a Bible-age Tokyo? Talk about perspective!!

Please, read Josephus.  I'm talking about the original context; you are
now expanding the context severely.  However, even taking into account
your expanded context, your perspective is *incredibly* skewed.  The
number of innocent Palestinians killed does not rank anywhere near the
tens of thousands, let alone the hundreds of thousands.  Nor does the
tragedy even begin to approach what the Romans did to the Jews.  Or, for
that matter, what happened to us in the Holocaust.  The comparison is
sickening, yet it is *exactly* that kind of comparison we continue to
get from your type - and it is one you *know* is both false and
offensive.

-- 
"How sad to see/A model of decorum and tranquillity/become like any other sport
A battleground for rival ideologies to slug it out with glee." -Tim Rice,"Chess"
     Eric S. Perlman  <perlman@qso.colorado.edu> or <eric@lyra.Colorado.EDU> 
  Center for Astrophysics and Space Astronomy, University of Colorado, Boulder
From: gene@cs.bu.edu (Gene Itkis)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: territories vs the territories
Date: 22 Jul 92 03:56:21 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Department, Boston University, Boston, MA, USA
Originator: gene@cs

In article <1992Jul21.193824.11592@rs.com> horen@rs.com (Jonathan B. Horen) writes:
=In article <21983@venera.isi.edu> arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens) writes:
=== In article <1992Jul21.063519.4451@rs.com> horen@rs.com writes:
=== +... Both of my daughters were born at the 
=== +"Bikur Cholim" hospital, smack-dab in the middle of Jerusalem, and both of
=== +their *American* passports list place of birth as "Jerusalem, Israel".
==
==...The latter is what my daughter did not long
==ago, and she was explicitly told that had she written simply "Israel" no
==questions would have been asked, but since she mentioned Jerusalem,
==Israel could not be recorded as the place of birth.  At my daughter's
==request the person at the passport agency checked again that this was in
==fact the policy.
=
=Of course the Passport Agency knows. In order to obtain a US passport they
=first had to be US citizens (which they obtained a few years after birth in
=Tel-Aviv) -- proving US citizenship required submitting their Birth
=Certificates and authorized translations of them from Hebrew into English. If
=I had simply filled-in "Israel", the forms would have been rejected.
=
=My daughters' original US passports were issued in Tel-Aviv (listing
=Jerusalem, Israel as POB), and their replacement ones were issued at the
=Passport Agency in San Francisco.
=
=America just ain't what it used ta be.

This is interesting. I hope both of you gentelmen would not mind specifying the
chronology. I wonder if this is a result of simple beurocratical sloppiness or
reflects an actual policy change.
-- 
 ---
	Gene Itkis		(gene@cs.bu.edu)
From: arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Radio Host Fired After Jewish Prote
Date: 24 Jul 92 00:45:01 GMT
	<1992Jul23.200154.4222@cs.cmu.edu>
	<1992Jul23.211438.27970@elroy.jpl.nasa.gov>
Organization: USC/Information Sciences Institute
In-reply-to: ejk@coral.JPL.NASA.gov's message of 23 Jul 92 21:14:38 GMT

In article <1992Jul23.211438.27970@elroy.jpl.nasa.gov> ejk@coral.JPL.NASA.gov (Elya Kapelyan) writes:
>
> In article <1992Jul23.200154.4222@cs.cmu.edu>, anwar+@cs.cmu.edu (Anwar Mohammed) writes:
>
> |> Our local paper, the Pittsburgh Press, has reported on Yitzhak Shamir's
> |> dealings with the Nazis.  Should it be shut down? (Despite the fact that
> |> the Teamsters have done that for several weeks now).
>
>  Exactly what were these "dealings" with the Nazis?  Are you (or the
> paper) referring to the attempts by Avraham Stern to get in touch with the
> Germans, and offer to help them fight the British, if they guaranteed that
> European Jews would be allowed to go there, and be left in peace?  . . .
>
>  If you are referring to the former, then these "dealings" didnt't get
> very far, and represented a desperate attempt to save the Jews who later 
> perished in the Holocaust.  

I wonder where you get this pleasant "spin" on what the Stern gang was
trying to do.  Certainly not from any documentary evidence of their
interactions with the Nazis.  Certainly not from any statements by
Shamir, one of the leaders at the time (Stern was not involved, probably
due to his being dead).  Shamir has stubbornly refused to discuss this
issue, and one can only wonder why.

The document which I have seen (in translation) NEVER mentioned saving
Jews in Europe and/or allowing them to come to Palestine.  It does talk
about how LEHI agrees with the totalitarian aspects of Nazi ideology,
and explains that LEHI is willing to fight on the side of the Axis
countries in the war.  All LEHI requests in exchange is the right to
form a state in Palestine run according to Nazi-like principles, after
an Axis victory...

I will gladly post an article on the subject.  It has been posted in the
past.

The only thing that saved Shamir from being an actual collaborator with
the Nazis appears to be the fact that the Nazis themselves were not
interested in forming such an arrangement.  Nice guy, this Shamir.
--
Yigal Arens   "He seems like an average type of man.  He's not, like, smart.
USC/ISI        I'm not trying to bag on him or anything, but he has the same
arens@isi.edu  mentality I have -- and I'm in the eighth grade."     Vanessa
               Martinez, after VP Quayle's visit to her school-LA Times 5/21
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Subject: Re: Arf slanders me 
Organization: Brown University Department of Computer Science
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 21:00:27 GMT

Arfie, it doesn't matter. You just can't go and *publicaly* accuse 
someone of cursing you on the phone if you don't know for sure its
him, and you obviously had no reason to assume it was, except for
the fact that he argued with you on the net (which leaves about
500 possible suspects, I guess). 

And don't bother calling the FBI. WE have them in our pocket, you know.

-Danny Keren.

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: rivk@quads.uchicago.edu (nora gayle rivkis)
Subject: Re: Arab Gestures
Reply-To: rivk@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 04:30:10 GMT

In article <1992Jul31.024901.9166@usenet.ins.cwru.edu> bx573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alan H. Stein) writes:

[some very good things deleted]

>In a previous article, nabil@ncrcol.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM (Nabil Idriss) says:

>>2> Peace with Egypt
>
>That was fourteen years ago, and a give-and-take which consisted of Israel
>giving and Egypt taking.  Meanwhile, Israel is still waiting for Egypt to
>live up to the spirit of what little Egypt agreed to.

I have to disagree on this one. Both sides knew that the CDA would have
to be a relatively cold peace for the foreseeable future, if only because
after thirty years of war, neither side trusted the other farther than they
could throw the whole region. Egypt has been an honorable neighbor since
then, not only meeting all of the military requirements of the peace treaties
but maintaining neutrality in UN votes between Israel and Egypt's Arab
allies and telling Assad in no uncertain terms to cool it when things
got too tense some weeks ago. I have grave problems with the behavior
of most of the Arab countries, but there's no sense attacking the one
that's being fair.

>bx573@cleveland.freenet.edu----Alan H. Stein----stein@uconnvm.uconn.edu

	-Nora
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 00:19:03 -0400 
From: Radu Eugen Edelstein <re0x+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Avoiding Flames

Brad writes:
One wonders whether Israel is in Lebanon to instigate attacks on Israel.
The PLO has been disarmed in Lebanon and the Hezbollah have not attacked
Israel except after the death of Mosavi.


I say:
That's exactly the point, Brad.  Before Israel was protected by the
security zone in Southern Lebanon, it took direct hits (with casualties),
inside its territory.  The fact that Israelis have less to deal with
that threat now, proves that the Israeli military were right in establishing
the security zone.

Rad
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: analyst@netcom.com (David Sternlight)
Subject: Re: Ajami Club
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 92 21:43:35 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)


Jaber's latest post asserts that something Ajami says is also said
by Radio Teheran.

I see. So now it's guilt by association.

Let's see.  Hmmm. Gravity makes things fall. Hey! I heard that on Radio
Bombay, too. Does that make me pro-Indian?

This conversation is getting silly enough that I'm now outta here on this one.
Jaber may have the last word if he likes.

-- 
David Sternlight        David Sternlight Inc.        email:analyst@netcom.COM
From: egpv29@castle.ed.ac.uk (JHenderson)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: ISRAEL JOINS THE CIVILIZED WORLD
Date: 22 Jul 92 09:05:06 GMT
Organization: Edinburgh University

In article <1992Jul20.233900.7739@bony1.bony.com> jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni) writes:
=>
=>This includes the Bush's, Majors, Shamirs, Yeltsins, Gandhis and Palmes
=>of the world.

Now I've heard everything - Shamir and Gandhi in the same category.
Funny how the little Indian chap is best known for non-violence whereas
the little Jewish bloke is a well-known member of a murderous gang. Still,
these little distinctions don't mean much, do they Jake?



-- 
-Jeremy Henderson        egpv29@castle.ed.ac.uk   

(or am I?)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: aap@wam.umd.edu (Alberto Adolfo Pinkas)
Subject: Re: NUKE IRAQ
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 15:49:58 GMT

In article <AeS6EJq00WB44aNIoJ@andrew.cmu.edu> Radu Eugen Edelstein <re0x+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
>Mark writes:
>   While it is true that Sadam Hussein deserves to die a slow and
>painful death, the people of Iraq have suffered enormously.  What
>I would like to see done is Sadam Hussein executed, to give these
>poor people a chance to create their own government.  I would not
>object to nuking Sadam Hussein!
>
>I say:
>Iraqis don't know what democracy is and they are bound to make the
>same mistakes again.  While the degree of indoctrination and the
>level of nationalistic feelings (main drawbacks) are about the same
>as those that existed in former communist countries, the anti-western
>attitude of the Iraqis is an element that contributes to Iraqis'
>complicity in allowing the existance of such leaders as Sadam.
>
>Rad

This is not right, I believe. 
Democracy is not something defined in the same way to everybody. Nor is
democracy the kind of government that everybody in the world choses to have.
It is a cultural thing that we, in the western hemisphere, have chosen 
a democratic system as our government. And, it has to be related to the 
history and traditions of the people. Other people with different traditions
and cultures might choose other system of government.
Now, the antiwestern attitude of Iraquies is not different from the 
ani-eastern attitude of most western people. 
I do not see why we should go there and imposse our system of government 
(and life).

AAp
From: bx573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alan H. Stein)
Subject: Re: Arab Gestures
Reply-To: bx573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alan H. Stein)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 92 02:49:01 GMT


In a previous article, nabil@ncrcol.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM (Nabil Idriss) says:

>In article <1992Jul28.171746.23926@usenet.ins.cwru.edu> bx573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alan H. Stein) writes:
>>
>>Can anybody list any substantial Arab gestures of goodwill towards Israel,
>>say comparable to ending the intifada, stopping terrorist attacks on
>>civilians, ending the boycott, ending the secondary and tertiery aspects of
>>the boycott, ceasing to distribute anti-semitic literature such as the
>>Protocols of the Elders of Zion, or something comparable?
>>
>
>1> Me talking to you

Seems to me that Israel is also talking to the Arabs.  Or does it only
count as a gesture when the Arabs talk to Israel?  Sort of like the way
some of our friends tell us that it's longer for them to drive to our house
than it is for us to drive to theirs?

>2> Peace with Egypt

That was fourteen years ago, and a give-and-take which consisted of Israel
giving and Egypt taking.  Meanwhile, Israel is still waiting for Egypt to
live up to the spirit of what little Egypt agreed to.

>3> Meeting at the Peace table

You're repeating yourself.  See #1.

>4> Accepting two states idea
>
There are already two states, with the Arab state controlling about 3/4 of
Palestine.  I think that you're really referring to a "three state" idea. 
In any case, the Arabs might help convince Israel that they have accepted
either a two or three state idea if the PLO amended it's charter provision
for a one, judenrein, state.

>Give the Palestinians a state and you will not need any goodwill gestures, you
>will have peace.

Funny.  I seem to recall that the Arabs were in control of Judea, Samaria
and Gaza from 1948-1967, having the total power to create a third
Palestinian state there, but made no move to do so and also made no move to
institute a peace agreement.  

It might be appropriate for them to give some tangible evidence that things
would be different now.  (Ceasing to stab Israeli civilians in the back
might be a nice, minimal, first baby step.)
-- 
bx573@cleveland.freenet.edu----Alan H. Stein----stein@uconnvm.uconn.edu
From: bx573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alan H. Stein)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Israel, Lebanon, etc
Date: 31 Jul 92 02:36:13 GMT
Reply-To: bx573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alan H. Stein)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)


In a previous article, hernlem@che14.ncsu.EDU (Brad Hernlem) says:

>Hezbollah spends its time and effort (and lives) to push Israel out of
>Lebanon. Based on this observation, I would apply the term "resistance
>movement".
>    
Firing rockets at civilians across the border is a strange way to resist,
especially when the purpose of the Israeli presence is to protect against
such attacks.  The most effective way to get Israel to leave the small area
of Lebanon it remains in would be to stop attacking Israelis.

(Of course, that wouldn't do anything to advance their long term goal of
completely destroying Israel.

-- 
bx573@cleveland.freenet.edu----Alan H. Stein----stein@uconnvm.uconn.edu
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Palestinians criticize Demo platfor
Date: 23 Jul 92 18:19:16 GMT
Organization: Aiken Computation Lab, Harvard University

In article <1483500291@igc.org> awair@igc.org (Arab World and Islamic Resources) writes:
>From: Arab World and Islamic Resources <awair>
>Subject: Palestinians criticize Demo platform
>PALESTINIANS CRITICIZE SUPE OVER PLATFORM
>by John Roemer
>
>Reprinted from SF WEEKLY, July 15, 1992, p.6-7.
>
>Palestinians in the Bay Area reacted with dismay to reports this
>week that progressive supervisor Roberta Achtenberg helped place a
           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Anyone know what this means?  She supervises progressives?  :)

>strongly pro-Israel plank in the Democratic Party platform.

>Achtenberg was one of Bill Clinton's eight delegates to the
>committee that drafted the platform, which fails to call for an
>independent Palestinian state.  "the end of the Cold War doesn't
>alter Americans' deep interest and our longstanding special
>relationship with Israel," the platform paper reads. 

I can see why you might want a call for a state, but what is wrong
with this next sentence fragment?

> "direct
>negotiations between Israel and her Arab neighbors and
>Palestinians with no imposed solutions are the only way to achieve
>enduring security for Israel and full peace for all parties in the
>region."

Sounds accurate to me.

>The platform is also unprecedented in calling for Jerusalem to be
>the capital of Israel rather than Tel Aviv.  Palestinians find
>that position unacceptable because they live in half of the city
>which rests in the Israeli-occupied West Bank.

Thats not unprecedented in the least.  Besides, the Keneset, and other
government buildings are all in the "Western" part of the city.  A
country could recognize this without recognizing Israel's claim on the
formerly occupied parts of the city.

>Barbara Lubin, head of the Middle East Children's Alliance in
>Berkeley, said, "Since Jesse jackson stopped pushing for a
>two-state solution, the Democratic Party has abandoned
>Palestinians.  Palestinians really have no place to go politically
>- and so what else is new?"

The platform explicitly calls for negotiations "between Israel and her
Arab neighbors and Palestinians."  This is recognition that the
Palestinians are seperate from the rest of the Arab world.  What
should the platform have called for, a US invasion of Israel to force
a Palestinian State with Tel Aviv as its capital? 

I don't see whats wrong with a call for negotiations, or why this is
such a pro-Israel plank.  Could someone please explain?

Adam



Adam Shostack 					adam@das.harvard.edu

What a terrible thing to have lost one's .sig.  Or not to have a .sig
at all.  How true that is.      
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: s1495926@techst02.technion.ac.il (Danny Kreindler)
Subject: Re: ISRAEL JOINS THE CIVILIZED WORLD
Reply-To: s1495926@techst02.technion.ac.il (Danny Kreindler)
Organization: Technion, Israel Inst. of Technology
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 22:20:12 GMT

In article <24244@castle.ed.ac.uk> egpv29@castle.ed.ac.uk (JHenderson) writes 
in reply to Jake:
:
>
>Ask your Mom to take you. Maybe if you promise not to squeal for ice-cream
>she'll take you this time. I'd recommend you go on your own, but you'll
>need to hide in her lap during the scary bits.

Henderson, you are so full of bullshit- either say something productive or
get the hell of this net !


-- 
Danny K.  --  EE, Technion, Haifa, Israel   
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
" I want to know God's thoughts... the rest are details ".  (A. Einstein)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: nyh@hikita.WPI.EDU (Nevo Y Hed)
Subject: Re: NUKE IRAQ
Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 19:13:43 GMT

In article <1992Jul31.153742.28455@ncsu.edu> hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU (Brad Hernlem) writes:
[...]
>> 	Mr. Kahn forgets one thing.  Iraq lost a war it started.  The
>> disarming is part of the cease fire agreements.  If U.S. would have
>> lost  a war to China - China will disarm the Americans - like it or
>> not.
>> 
>> I think it's fair...
>
>Mr. Hed forgets one thing. The weapons information that is being sought
>had nothing to do with the official reason for the war; to get Iraq out
>of Kuwait.

who cares? Allies won - Allies gets to say what goes - that is what
cease fire [when there is a definite winner/loser] is all about.

>When you've got a gun to someone's head you can make them sign anything.
>Such agreements are not usually binding in civil law, at least. Have we
>already forgotten the lessons of World War I or are Iraqis simply not
>human enough to be considered on that level?

What an absurd analogy.  Civil law is nice and dandy but this is more
like when I put a gun to your head and telling you to give me yours.
And if you were the one to start the shooting to begin with it is
extyreemly fair that I disarm you [it would be stupid of me not to...]


>Quite honestly I was shocked to see your name associated with this post,
>Nevo. It's not a forgery is it?

It's not a forgery - why?  I am a pro-peace Israeli - we are not
talking about stealing the bread out of the Iraqis mouth - we are
talking about neutralizing an un-stable element - can't you see?

The lesson I think you expect me to learn from WWI to WWII is don't
de-humanize the loser - right?  Well, I don't push for unbearable
reparations etc - obviously that will get us nowhere - but surely you
can't expect the west to leave Iraq to do a 'the empire strikes back'
sequel[sp?].

Maybe you think that I support the original thread by Brian - no way -
I never said such a thing or even implied so.  If you want you can
change the thread's name.

>
>Brad Hernlem (hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU)


-- 
Nevo Y.	 Hed              nyh@wpi.wpi.edu
++1-508-754-2491          CS student, Worcester Polytechnic Institute.
"I like my cigar too, but I take it out of my mouth from time to time" G.Marx
Organization: Masters student, Information Networking Institute, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 10:14:33 -0400 
From: Radu Eugen Edelstein <re0x+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: FACTS EVERY ISRAEL BASHER MUST AVOID!

Sandra writes:
They were WORSHIPPERS who arrived for prayers, when they came out there
was a large band of Israelis passing out leaflets and chanting to
destroy the Mosque.  It started with yelling...I don't even know about

I say:
This is your version, but even if we take your version, how were the
Palestinians present threatened by the Jews tens of feet below them.
That is WHO started the physical violence ?

Rad
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast