Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 16:17:48 CST
From: <U14663@uicvm.uic.edu>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Re: Authority, Diversity and Development
 <92345.041632U14663@uicvm.uic.edu> <1992Dec10.142709.5489@news.nd.edu>

In article <1992Dec10.142709.5489@news.nd.edu>, jocallag@darwin.helios.nd.edu
(john ocallaghan) says:
>
>In article <92345.041632U14663@uicvm.uic.edu> <U14663@uicvm.uic.edu> writes:
>>>
>>This sounds like the comment of someone who has never been married. :)
>>The satisfying of each other's carnal appetites is part of conjugal
>>love.  It is a beautiful, giving thing.  Your phraseology ``relentless
>>carnal appetites'' conveys to me a possible a negative attitude
>>towards sex.  Perhaps you didn't mean it as such.  But it seems to me,
>>at least, that there is a deep misunderstanding among the unmarried or
>>at least those who have no positive memory of a loving sexual
>>relationship (I include the church hierarchy here), of the role sex
>>plays in such a relationship.  If it is not in some way offensive to
>>one of the parties, it is probably the most beautiful gift given by
>>god to the couple.  A gift which by its nature only occurs when it is
>>given out of love.  And at the risk of covering too many subjects
>>here, just as ``happily'' married couples know this, so do gay and
>>lesbian couples.  They see the profound beauty of this gift from god
>>and realize it was god's intent that humans give this gift to each
>>other.  None of this is to say that physical sexual activity between
>>two people of any sexual orientation is good if there is no loving
>>relationship.  Promiscuity is not good in any context.  But where
>>there is love, all forms of sexual giving to each other are
>>beautiful demonstrations of that love.
>
>I am married.  I say that, as it seems we now have to prove our authority
>to speak.
>
>Do you wish to suggest that it is impossible for a loving married couple
>to sin sexually in their relationship?
I didn't think I was suggesting that.  I did say ``If it is not in some
way offensive to one of the parties,...''.  If it is offensive then it
may well be ``sinful.''  If it is not offensive then I don't believe it
is sinful to the other person.  If it isn't obvious, I don't consider
nonabortifacient methods of contraception, anal or oral sex, mutual
masturbation and anything that might be labeled as ``kinky'' as sinful
in and of itself against the other person.  One could certainly have
some evil motive but that would not be the norm or, I hope, even common.
Again, that is assuming that one of the people involved doesn't have
negative feelings toward the activity.
Are these people sinning against god?  Possibly if they never intend to
have children.  But then, maybe it IS better that such a couple never
have children.  And I should add that I don't believe that deciding
not to have children is automatically sinful since this choice may be
made for many good reasons.  In all these cases the right or wrong of
the situation is determined my the intent of the couple or individual.
The matter, I do not see as inherently evil.
>If you do, then if I wished to be
>uncharitable, I could suggest that you are not married, as you did above.
I was happily married for a long time.
>Should we expect sin to end because the persons involved love one another?
What sin are you talking about?
>This seems completely unrealistic, and not born out generally by human
>experience beyond and including marriage and the sexual relationship.  Many
>people love Christ intensely, and by their own testimony continue to betray
>Him and their relationship to Him by their sins.  Why should we expect that
>if love of the person of Christ is not sufficient to cause us to cease to
>sin in our relationship with Him, that love of the persons of our wives will
>be sufficient to cause us to cease to sin in our relations with them?
I was speaking only of the sexual relationship.  Is that what you mean
when you say ``cease to sin in our relations with them?''  If so, what
sin are your refering to that we are ceasing.  Or are you speaking of
sin in the context of the entire husband-wife relationship?
>
>This is not to say that I think sex is dirty.  In fact, I was raised to think
>sex is in itself holy, and a beautiful gift of God, and the primary way
>in which the grace of matrimony is imparted to a couple.  However, I was I
>also raised to recognized that mankind can in its sinfulness take every great
>and holy gift of God and debase it, including the great and holy gift of
>sacramental sex.
>
>Celibate members of the Church Hierarchy can write quite beautifully on the
>subject of marriage.  May I suggest, John Paul's "Love and Responsibility?"
>Though this was written before he became a member of the hierarchy.  I suppose
>it lost its claim to beauty and truth when he became a bishop. :-)
I would indeed like to read it.  And will try to do so with an open
mind. 8-)  Do you by any chance know the publisher.  That may make it
easier to find.
>
>Peace, and Happy Advent.
>John O'Callaghan
>
And the same to you John
Dick Murphy
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