From: emc@doe.carleton.ca (Eli Chiprout)
Subject: Re: Jewish Fundamentalism
Organization: Dept. of Electronics, Carleton University
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1992 16:56:47 GMT

In <9211051527.AA09281@cyclone.sbi.com> gertler@cyclone.sbi.com (Don Gertler) writes:

>emc@doe.carleton.ca (Eli Chiprout) writes:

>> Some Jewish poster recently have demonstrated the intolerance
>> and fanatacism inherent in Jewish Fundamentalism.  Just as
>> Christian and Moslem Fundamentalism is scary, so is its Jewish
>> counterpart.  But what is Jewish Fundamentalism?

>I don't know that fundamentalism, per se, is dangerous or scary.  Some
>"brands" may be, but the very danger may be in where they diverge from
>the fundamentals.  I have a hard time believing, for instance, that
>what is commonly known (politically) as "Fundamentalist Islam" is, in
>fact, what orthodox Muslims worldwide accept as fundamentalist.
>I don't believe, for instance, that the Quran requires, among its
>basic principles, terrorism, wanton murder and kidnapping.  Yet this
>is the way the term is commonly used today.  

Yet Islam does require occasional wars against infidels and war uses
all of those elements.  (But this is not to discuss Islam)

If that's the sort of
>"fundamentalism" you mean, then I agree 100%, whether it be Islamic,
>Christian, Jewish or any other modifier you care to attach.

At the request of yourself and others, let me define what I mean.
The term Fundamentalist is perhaps too broad and misleading and of
course, as some have commented, originally is derived from the 
term for Protestant Fundamentalism.  However, there is an element
in Judaism of relying on acient texts and interpretations, whether
it be the Bible or the Oral Law (in its various and diverse 
manifestations -- some of which are no longer oral but written)
which are adhered too without regard to advances in science, society,
or culture.  In other words, if the Rambam said (...) then (...) must
apply today.  This I feel is dangerous and does not recognize the
political and social realities of today's world, such as the women's
movement, homosexuality, political expediency, etc.

>*IF* G-d instructs the Jews to slaughter and/or expel all neighbors
>*AND* He states that this applies under all circumstances and at all
>times, then I would agree.

How would you know if God gave such instruction?  Through the chief
Rabbi in Israel, or through reading the Torah yourself?
For a clear cut decision, there would have to be no contradictions
among the various manifestations of the Oral Law.  What about the
Moshiah?  How do you know what God has said about the Moshiah?
He obviously didn't speak to you directly.  So should I rely on one
or the other modern interpretations, or should I rely on past 
understanding of Moshiah?

>*BUT* that's not what appears in the Torah.  The fact that you can find
>"examples" of certain situations does not mean that these "examples"
>constitute the fundamentals of our faith, nor that they apply to today's
>circumstances.  If I took a look at a book of American case law and found
>an "example" allowing killing (for self-defense), would I be correct 
>in assuming that killing is a fundamental belief among Americans?
>That is, that "Fundamentalist Americans" are killers?

Examples are not fundamentals, absolutely agreed.

>> At the heart of Jewish Fundamentalism is the feeling that all nations
>> are inherently (and apart from the usual nationalistic self
>> interest) against Israel, and that non-Jews inherently against
>> Jews.  As a result Messianic expectations and fervor run high
>> among this group, with the intent to kick the Arabs off the Temple
>> Mount and set up the new Temple to hasten the coming of the
>> Messiah.

>You don't really know much about this, do you?  First, the people I
>would probably call "fundamentalist" Jews are diametrically opposed to
>"this group" you mention.  Sure, they believe the Mashiach will come.
>And because of this, WE do nothing with the Temple Mount.

Leaving your barb about not knowing for now...
We are not referring to same people as fundamentalists.
However please remember, that in the cause of "fundamental" Judaism,
many have felt that the State of Israel should never have been founded
because we should wait untill the Moshiah comes.  So you are
only going part way in your assessment. That is: fight to found the
state of Israel and leave the rest up to the Moshiah.  It was only
after the founding of the state that many of these "fundamental" Jews
gave up the fight AGAINST Israel and accepted it as fact. Some groups
were still adamant and went to talk to the king of Jordan so that
he could claim the Israeli territory in which they lived.  They
felt that it was grievous sin for Jews to claim the founding of the
State of Israel which only the Mosiach was allowed to do.  

I would say that those who consider themselves as following 
"fundamentals" of Judaism have actually watered down the
fundamentals maintained by these groups.

>Perhaps you're talking about other groups, perhaps more politically
>motivated, perhaps very dangerous.  But they're not "fundamentalist"
>Jews.  Or, to be more precise, these views themselves do not constitute
>the fundamentals.  The members may be fantatics, extremists and/or zealots.
>And they may be Jews.  But their "cause" is not what even the most
>fundamentalist of Jews would call fundamentalist.  (Maybe you mean
>that they're fundamentalist Kahane-ists.)

When my father served his turn in the Israeli army, he had to, on
one occasion rescue a girl who happened to have wandered unawares
though Mea Shearim in Jerusalem, and was stoned for wearing short
sleeves.  I would call this fundamentalism.  No concept of modern
social/political change.  Of course it comes in various degrees,
some more insidious than others (see for instance the forbidding
of evolution to be taught in the classrooms due to a medieval
Jewish pronouncement in a previous poster's remark).

>> The political interpretation and understanding of this group
>> are generally quite narrow and limited.  Were they to gain power,
>> They might be a self fulfilling prophecy actually bringing to
>> pass the conflagration that they expect anyways.

>I don't want them to get into power either, but I think you weaken
>your own argument by lumping together all your prejudices against
>religious Judaism.  Once again, fundamentalist Judaism may not be
>to your liking, but don't try to heap upon them the evils of other
>extremist groups.

I am against unbending religious interpretations of any kind
whether it be to take over the Temple Mount or to forbid women
from being social equals or to damning the peace talks because
"all non-Jews are against Jews"

>> I think that we need to look at failed Jewish Messianic fervor in
>> history and draw lessons.  These people are dangerous and
>> almost all means should be used to stop them.

>Sounds like you're advocating quite an extremist approach yourself.
>Mind elaborating on "almost all means"?

That's why I said almost all.  Anything short of killing or having
to fight our brothers with arms.  Any political, PR, or verbal
war is fair game.

>> So many of us have
>> concentrated on seeming threats "from the outside" when there is
>> a potential explosion in our midst that will not easily go away.

>Perhaps.  But don't ignore outside threats either, when they exist.

Please don't lecture me on ignoring very real outside threats.  I
live throught the 6-day war in Israel, in a smelly, feces infested
basement, while my family fought.  I have also been kicked around
as a Jew.

However to say that non-Jews are inherently against Jews is a
self fulfilling prophecy, acuses God of creating every other
human being of being born with the genes to hate Jews, assumes
that no change can come about in gentile attitudes (see the
book of Yonah) and irreverently forget all of the gentiles who
took in Jews during WW II at the risk of their own lives, 
including whole villages in southern France (with many Jews
not even returning for a thank-you).

(It also forgets that Israel was founded by a gentile vote
in the United Nations).

>-Don Gertler
--
Eli Chiprout                  " 'Al ta'am vereach, ein lehitvakeah!"
Dept. of Electronics, 
Carleton University, Canada
emc@doe.carleton.ca