From: doug@uuisis.isis.org (Doug Thompson)
Subject: Re: Alignment of will, asking for help!
Organization: International Shared Information Service (Ottawa)
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 92 04:39:43 GMT

theresa@cmatter.physics.indiana.edu (Theresa Vaughan) writes:

> >Christianity is not the Bible. Christians don't generally worship the Bible.
> >Only Catholics (among Christians) worship traditions (this may be an
> >over-generalization but is generally true).
> 
>    Oh really? Gee, I was born and raised a Catholic, and I was 
> always taught that we worshipped God, and that God is manifest
> through the three aspects of the trinity. Noone ever mentioned
> to me that we worship the Bible, nor even (gasp!) tradition.

Trinity is tradition. It's not in the Bible. It comes from the Council of
Nicea and was actually *dictated* by Emperor Constantine 'cos the bishops
just couldn't agree on whether God was one or three :-) But note the caveat
regarding over-generalization. :-)  Constantine was not a Christian, BTW. He
didn't get baptized until six years after issuing the decree that God is
three. 

>    Where do you get your information on Catholicism? Have you

From the seminary . . .

> ever spoken to Catholics about what they worship, or what
> place "tradition" has in their spirituality? Have you read
> much on Catholicism? If not, I suggest you refrain from
> uninformed generalizations which some, like myself in this
> instance, find offensive. I found the rest of your posting
> quite interesting, by the way, and agree with you in large
> part. Perhaps that's why the above statement was so distressing
> to me.

There is an old saying that "What you obey is what you worship . . ."

To the extent that this is true, *some* Christians (mostly Protestants) can
be said to worship the Bible, and *some* Catholics can be said to worship
tradition. The Pope is obeyed by some Catholics. The Pope is tradition. All
the Church Councils since Nicea in 319 are 'obeyed' according to Catholic
dogma. Clerical celibacy is tradition, originating around 900. Etc. etc.
etc. For some Catholics the traditions are more important than the spiritual
essence. Traditions are more visible to the senses. Catholic dogma *does
say* that the Pope is the "Vicar of Christ" and that the "Church" is the
manifestation of the will of God, ergo you can't worship God without
worshipping the Church. 

If you doubt this, just ask your priest whether he is allowed to serve
communion to a Protestant. He is not. "Tradition" doesn't allow it, and
there is *no* reference to God in that. Ask your average Protestant
clergyman whether he would serve communion to a Catholic and he's liable to
say "I'll serve communion to anyone who loves Jesus".

The role of Church and tradition in Protestantism is demoted such that the
individual conscience is supreme. In Catholic dogma (if not all Catholic
practice) tradition takes precedence over conscience.

Protestant dogma puts a heavy emphasis on knowing God in your 'inward parts'
- and a direct personal relationship between the individual and God.
Catholic dogma inserts the Church, the Saints, and Tradition in the role of
intermediaries through whom one can come to know the will of God.

Protestant liturgy is Catholic liturgy with the intermediaries removed.

My intention is not to be offensive. I believe my observation is generally
correct and is certainly supported by reference to official Church teachings
with which I am somewhat familiar :-).

If you refer to Martin Luther's writing on the topic of tradition,
obedience, Maryolatry, and the like, you will see that the very basis of the
Protestant Reformation is indeed the protest against the authority of
tradition. So don't be offended. This *IS* the stuff and substance of the
Catholic <-> Protestant split. Tradition is what it is *all* about.
Reformation Protestants ditched it in favour of the conscience, and the
Counter-Reformation Catholics *entrenched* it. Papal infallibility didn't
come along until 1871! Entrenching tradition. The divine assumption of Mary
didn't come along until 1959!! But a 'good' Catholic is told to believe that
without reference to conscience or Scripture. Just tradition.

"Tradition", by the way, means (in the sense that I am using it) those laws,
rules, dogmas, etc., which arise not from Scripture, and not from Conscience
but from the Institutional Church itself.

In Catholicism such 'traditions' are placed on the same level and authority
as Scripture. In Protestantism, Scripture comes first and the only valid
interpreter is the individual reader of Scripture. Thus the Protestant dogma
of 'sola scriptura', which was a reaction against Chatholicism's heavy
emphasis on traditional interpretations.

I am, of course, not speaking of 'all Catholics' nor 'all Protestants' but
rather of predominant dogmas, Catechisms, and teachings in the two branches
of Christianity.

I have nothing against Catholics and my intent is not to offend.

My intent is to inform. A lot of things are said by a lot of people about
Christianity which simply aren't true, or are distortions, or reveal strong
negative emotional reactions against certain excesses and abuses. So let's
be real and frank and get it straight.

Protestants put a lot of emphasis on the Bible and sometimes end up
worshipping it. Catholics put a lot of emphasis on tradition and sometimes
end up worshipping it. I don't approve (personally) of either. I wish it
were not the case. But it is.

BUT you cannot tar and feather the entirety of the Christian faith, let
alone Christ himself, with either brush.

Christians, first and foremost, are humans. Therefore fallible. In my view,
humanity and fallibility extend to the Pope as well :-). But then I chose to
be a Protestant seeking, by the light of scripture and 'new age revelations'
to come to know God better, and more directly. Others choose other paths. No
problem.

=Doug

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