From: ebrahim@ee.umanitoba.ca (Mohamad Ebrahimi)
Subject: Re: To Agha Javad , PART II
Organization: Elect & Comp Engineering, U of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Manitoba,Canada
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 23:00:40 GMT


In article: <1992Nov16.200448.5791@hplabsz.hpl.hp.com>
javad@hplabsz.hpl.hp.com (Agha Javad) writes:

>In article <BxqK7p.EIp@ccu.umanitoba.ca> ebrahim@ee.umanitoba.ca
>(Mohamad Ebrahimi) writes:
>>In article: <1992Nov14.020002.27006@hplabsz.hpl.hp.com>
> javad@hplabsz.hpl.hp.com (Agha Javad)  writes:
>>                               
>>>In article <BxoFp0.Jwn@ccu.umanitoba.ca> ebrahim@ee.umanitoba.ca
>>> (Mohamad Ebrahimi) writes:
>>>>                                       
>>>>In article: <1992Nov13.184956.18043@hplabsz.hpl.hp.com>
>>>>javad@hplabsz.hpl.hp.com (Agha Javad)  writes:
>>>> 

>>>> 2- You claim that after revolution the IRI started to execute the officers 
>>>> of the army " by thousands"(!!!) even those junior officers who didn't     
>>>> have any power. It is a well-known trick. The bigger the lie, the more     
>>>> likely it is to be believed by those not familiar. But how about Iranian  
>>>> nation? Do they believe that " thousands of army officers" were executed?  
>>>> Do they forget the role of some parts of Shah's army in killings from    
>>>> 19 Dey of 1356 in Qom until the very day of 22 bahman? Do they forget the 
>>>> role of those Generals in maintaining 25 years dictatorship of Shah after
>>>> 28 Mordad?                                                    
>>>                                                                       
>>>Could you explain to us in truthful terms, what was the process of determining
>>>whether or not an officer on trial was guilty of treason?  Are you saying that
>>>all officers in the Iranian armed forces were guilty of maintaining a        
>>>dictatorship, and installing the shah in 1953?  A lot of air force pilots    
>>>who were just flying cargo planes were executed.  What was their crime?  The
>>>flew relief supplies to disaster stricken areas during earthquakes and so    
>>>on.  Now yes, there were the Khosrodads and the Rahimis and the Nassiris    
>>>who beared direct responsibility for shah's atrocities, but are you saying   
>>>all of the executed officers were that way? In 1982, 8 junior air forceofficers
>>>were executed just because they were suspected of helping BaniSadr escape.   
>>>They wern't planning a coup, or threatening anyone, they just allowed their 
>>>recently overthrown commander in chief to fly out on a 707.  This is the extent 
>>>of the IRI's mercy.  They could have fired them, imprisoned them, or anything,
>>>but no, they executed them.  Are you saying that these people would have let the
>>>innocent members of the armed forces get a fair trial and go free so they can
>>>serve where they were needed?                                       
>>                                      
>> -No I can't tell you what was the process of determining whether or
>>not an officer was  guilty, because I didn't attend a single trial.
>>But can you show any evidence that they were executed inocent?
>
>In these trials, if you remember, the officers did not have right to an 
>attorney.  Also, many times trials were held for several officers at 
>once.  As far as evidence that they were executed innocent, the IRI has
>set up an environemnt where even questioning such things is reason enough
>to get executed.
>With regard to 28 mordad, many of the executed officers were still kids, and 
>some were not even born at the time of 28 mordad.


   -Yes I remember that those generals and high ranking officers were tried
    by revolutionary courts, because of the special conditions of Iran in
    those days, and the great threates of coupe from generals like Rahimi
    and Khosrodad, and the plans of US dictated by Gen. Hoizer (sp?). But if
    you could show us evidence about a single one of those generals and 
    officers who was executed innocent I'll yield to your oppinions.

   -Yes, you are right about 28 Mordad, but don't forget that the dictatorship
    was not limmited to the day of 28 Mordad, it was implimented during 25
    years by generations of generals and officers. Also, there were people
    like Gen. Nasiri who were working from before 28 Mordad until the very
    day of 22 Bahman. In fact Nasiri was a Colonel when he arrested Mosadeq
    from his home in 1332. 


>> -No I'm not saying that all officers in army were guilty. Were all officers
>>  executed or jailed after revolution?
>>
>> -Do you have any evidence about those cargo pilots who were executed?
>>
>> -About the story of Banisadr, you are assuming all the netters to be
>>too simpleminded. First: Banisadr was a criminal who in the post of
>>the commander in  chief let Iraqis come and occupy our country. He
>>didn't let Iranian army and  pasdarn and volunteers to get united and
>>use their abilities for nine months. His  objective was very clear.
>>He had the whole country hostage in a bid to gain more  power and
>>authority than what was allocated for the president in constitution.
>>That  was why after his impitchment, Iran's armed forces managed to
>>expel Iraqis from  more tahn 90% of the occupied lands in just 11
>>months. You call him just " their recently overthrown commander in
>>chief" and I
>
>Banisadr was behind the release of those pilots I told you about.  Also, 
>him and Fallahi had managed to gather enough military might up to the time
>of his removal to start the first major counterattack- the break of the 
>siege of Abadan, which was completely planned and carried out by Fallahi,
>who along with Colonel Fakouri and Colonel Namjoo and one Pasdar commander
>(I think Kolahdooz?) were killed in a C130 crash caused by a saboteur's bomb,
>whose story we still don't know completely.  The IRI is the only one to have
>access to all the facts behind it, why haven't they announced who was behind
>it?  While Banisadr was in power, the fighting forces had simply not gained
>the power it required to carry out the liberations.  Also, maybe he was against
>human wave attacks which were a key element in subsequent battles, but I can
>only speculate on this, and I don't seek to defend Banisadr either, but I do
>know he was overthrown in a terror campaign where the hezbollah would attack
>rallies of his supporters with clubs, his newspaper "Enghelab-e-Eslami" was
>closed down, and of course, his allies retaliated with a wave of terror just
>creating an endless cycle.
>

   -And perhaps one of those pilots was Colonel Moezi, the special pilot
    of Shah, to rescue him and Rajavi later to France, and let them
    orchestrate the wave of terrors and bombings from France and later
    from headquarters of Iraqi army.

   -You know and I know that it didn't need one full year for a country
    like Iran to: "gather enough military might up to the time
    of his removal to start the first major counterattack- the break of 
    the siege of Abadan ". The manpower was there, the arms and ammunition
    was in storages, and more important, there were brave combatants, both
    in army and in sepah, who were starving for arms to defend their
    country. I'll give you a classic example from a book named "Two years
    of war" published by the public relations og IRGC in 1362. In the
    first days of Iraqi invasion and the siege of Khoramshahr, a batalion
    of sepah forces who had good military trainings and exprience from the
    war in Kurdistan, were dispatched to Mahshahr to be transfered to
    Khoramshahr and don't let the city fall in the hands of Iraqis. They
    waited for weeks there and the army helicopters, which in a daily basis
    were evacuating their personel or fascilities or their families from
    Khoramshahr, refused to transfer them to Khoramshahr because of an: 
    "Order from the commander in chief banning the transportation of 
    non-military (!!!) persons with army helicopters", until the Khoramshahr
    was captured by Iraqis. One can imagine when a handfull of people and
    pasdars and navy soldiers were able to keep Khoramshahr for 24 ( or 29)
    days, what difference could be made by sending a batalion of trained
    combatants to Khoramshahr. It didn't need months to send two trucks of
    RPG-7 and light  ammunition for the besieged combatants. And then, there
    was Banisadr's famous decree to different levels of the army, banning
    the giving of a single cartridge to sepah and volunteer forces. And
    don't forget high potentials like Dr. Chamran, who actively and lonely
    and manly was fighting in the fronts while he could organize big and
    effective offences against Ba'athis, but was neglected by Banisadr, until
    he was martyred near the Sousan-gerd.

   -banisadr was not owerthrown in a campaign of terror, in contrary, he
    was impitched according to the same constitution in writing of which
    he himself was present. He was impitched for his shortcomings in dealing
    with vital problem of the country, war, while he was conducting speeches
    against the whole system in 17 Shahrivar, Ashoura, Arbaeen, and the final
    masterpiece, 14 Esfand. While he was writing political diaries from a
    palace in Dezfull. While he had the whole natiom hostage to gain more
    power and authority than what was given to him by constitution, and even
    more than the post of the commander in chief, which was given to him
    to make him more powerful and open-handed to deal with countries
    problems and as asign of confidence in him and support for him. And
    so on.


>And you cannot say he "let the enemy occupy Iran", and throw all the 
>blame on the regime's current opponents such as him.  If you remember,
>he was elected president in what we were told was a landslide victory,
>and had the blessings of Khomeini himself, and was appointed commander
>of chief by Khomeini himself.
>

   -I think I can. It was him who anounced that we have addopted the
    Sasanids strategy to give land and take time! A ridiculous startegy( in
    that special conditions) which was even recognized to be silly and
    suspiciopus by ordinary people, and later, when Iran's combatants
    freed our lands in such a short time, it was proved how wrong, or
    intentious he was.

>>  call him a traitor who must be tried in martial court  for letting
>>enemy occupy Iran. Second: banisadr was not alone on that flight. With
>>  him, there was a criminal named Rajavi whose hands were bloody with
>>the blood of tens of authorities, as well as inocent civilians, up
>>to that day. Those officers  ( I assume that you can prove there has
>>been such 8 pilots) let that criminal flee   the country to organize
>.>next explosions and terrors in the streets( the complete  information
>>about more than 2500 civilian victims of those blind terrors have been
>>  given to the representative of UN) and later go to Iraq and become
>>an integral part   of Iraqi army to stab their fellow Iranian soldiers
>>in the fronts of war. You can   easily ignore this crime and call them
>>8 inocent officers(if any) but I call them  a bounch of traitors who
>>were equally responsible for all those blind terrors and   stabs in
>>the back of Iran's armed forces. As for the Ieranian nation, they have
>>made   their own judgment about MKO 11 years ago.


>I never called those 8 officers innocent.  I just highlighted an example of
>how the ruthless the regime is in dealing with someone who even takes part
>>in the slightest action which reveals that person's opposition (even nonviolent)
>to the regime.  Those officers could not possibly know that such terror would
>follow, and they were executed way before the MKO's bomb campaign against the
>regime leaders took off.  And as far as I am concerned, the IRI regime has
>no place calling the MKO terrorist, because a) the MKO helped tremendously
>in establishing IRI by the same tactics, and b) the IRI does everything the 
>MKO does and worse.

  -This is what you wrote:

                                 " ... In 1982, 8 junior air force officers
   were executed just because they were suspected of helping BaniSadr escape.
   They wern't planning a coup, or threatening anyone, they just allowed their
   recently overthrown commander in chief to fly out on a 707."

   If your claim is true that they were executed for helping Banisadr( and
   of course Rajavi) flee the country, then you should remember that it was
   some time in Mordad of 1360, while MKO's armed strugle, killing the
   civilian people in streets, bombings, inclidung the bombing of Islamic
   republic Party, which killed 72 authorities and MP's and Ministers, was
   started around two months before their action, i.e., in 30 Khordad and
   7 Tir 1360. So I let the netters judge about your statement:

        "...Those officers could not possibly know that such terror would
follow, and they were executed way before the MKO's bomb campaign against
            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
the regime leaders took off."  
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

  -You are entitled to your oppinion. But I don't think you can convince
   the families of hundreds of civilian people who were assasinated in the
   streets because of having beard or riding Honda 125 , or were killed
   in masive bombings in streets, just because they were passing the 
   wrong place in wrong time. Also IRI never gave information to Iraqis
   to bombard Iranian cities, they never met with a Zionist like All Gore
   to give him false informations about Iran's nuclear plans in order to
   provocke new US confrontations against Iran, etc.

>Agha Javad                          

Mohammad