HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: fritz@hpfcbig.sde.hp.com (Gary Fritz (tmp))
Subject: Re: Is there a directory of MLM opportunites?
Reply-To: Gary Fritz <fritz@hpfcbig.sde.hp.com>
Organization: HP SESD, Fort Collins, CO
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1scd1 PL4
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 15:52:15 GMT

steve@unipalm.co.uk (Steve Ladlow) writes:
> MLM is bigger in the US than over here in the UK and I would expect that
> there are a number of UK people who would like to get in on the act at
> the ground floor, with no or few people signed up. What better way to get
> to the top of the levels.

Steve, this comment implies a serious misunderstanding of the way MLM works.
I've had people say to me, "Don't you have to get in 'early' so you're at
the 'top of the levels' to succeed in MLM?  The farther you are from the
company, the less chance you have to succeed."  This is TOTALLY FALSE!

Your success in an MLM company has NOTHING to do with your distance from
the company.  You could say your success comes from your "distance from
the bottom" -- but guess what determines that?  Your hard work and 
determination!  It's up to YOU to build an organization.  When you've helped
others in your group build THEIR businesses, you will be at the "top" of
your organization -- the organization YOU built.  It doesn't matter if
you're 2 levels or 2000 levels from the company.  That has nothing to do
with how you're paid.

Now if you meant "It's easier to build an organization with a company
that hasn't already blanketed the area," I'd agree with you.  On the
other hand, you should realize that starting with a brand-new company
has other risks:  infant mortality, lack of extensive support, etc.


In reply to Steve, cdb@waikato.ac.nz (Craig D. Beere) writes:
> Why do you think that because it is saturated with Amway that there is room
> for other MLMs?  

In my experience, there is actually some validity to this.  We've had many
people we approached for Espial say, in a suspicious and hostile tone,
"Is this Amway??"  And they immediately calm down and become more receptive
when we tell them it IS NOT Amway.

I don't claim this is sensible, or logical, or "correct"; I just claim
it happens.  There are many people out there who have preconceptions about
Amway -- people who would otherwise be receptive to a business opportunity
but have already made up their minds that Amway ain't it.  Most of them
don't even really understand what Amway IS -- they just know(/think) they 
don't like it.

Amway's a damn fine company.  They're stable and have a terrific track record.
I'd probably be in Amway myself if it wasn't for this "don't confuse me with
facts, I've already made up my mind" situation.  But I'd rather not start out
with a defensive position.  I start with a clean slate with my prospects, and
they look at Espial with a relatively open and unprejudiced mind.

Gary
Newsgroups: alt.business.multi-level
From: pete@ctdslc.aero.org (Pete Thomas)
Subject: RE: Amway
Organization: The Aerospace Corporation; El Segundo, CA
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 22:33:37 GMT

Let's be careful to keep this discussion low-key, with that last post, I 
could feel us drifting off towards flame-land again.

It is possible to disagree with people without accusing them of spreading
"rumor and inuendo", being deluded by "mysticism."

I too agree that capitalism, in every instance that I've seen an alternative
given, has proven to be a more equitable creator of wealth and prosperity.  That
in any society there will be poor and needy, and people who try to help them. 
That in any society some will try to take advantage of others by force or fraud.

I happen not to agree that Big Government (as a "Platonic ideal" :-) ), is the
answer.  But as a Libertarian, and a "capitalist," I recognize that for too
long the debate has been ruled by emotionalism and sensationalism, and that's a
big reason that we haven't made much progress.

Please, we're just starting to have a rational discussion of the issues here,
let's try to keep things in check.

--Pete
Newsgroups: alt.business.multi-level
From: fritz@hpfcbig.sde.hp.com (Gary Fritz (tmp))
Subject: Re: alt.business.amway
Reply-To: Gary Fritz <fritz@hpfcbig.sde.hp.com>
Organization: HP SESD, Fort Collins, CO
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1scd1 PL4
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 04:39:35 GMT

jsautter@IMD.Sterling.COM (John Sautter) writes:
:  I agree, this is realy boring.  This group should be discussing multi-
: level marketing, sales, how to close, helping people etc.

I disagree.  I think helping people understand the differences between
bogus pyramids and legit MLMs is a very good use of this group.  And since
Amway has the best-documented case for this, I welcome the input --
especially Jon's very informative postings.

Gary
Newsgroups: alt.business.multi-level
From: isilver@meena.cc.uregina.ca
Subject: RE: Amway
Organization: University of Regina, Regina, Sask., Canada
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 19:58:20 GMT

      Regarding Pete's latest posting, I again have a lot of
thinking to do. I have laid, I think, my ideological cards on the
table, in terms of my political views. I happen to have strong
religious views, as well. I still feel that I'd prefer to hold
off taking a rock-solid position until I've read all the material
available. The book on legalities & ethics should be enlightening
- what I have found so far is that neither book I'm reading does
an adequate job of acknowledging sources to substantiate some
pretty florid statements, both pro & con.
      I think I can see, however, that there are some major
sleezoids in Amway, just as in any other occupation. I too have
had parttime sidelines over the years, including running a not
unsuccessful consulting operation. I am also convinced that Amway
makes a healthy profit.
      What I want to sort out, is the ideological direction
Amway takes. To me, capitalism is exploitation, but I'm still
taking advantage every day of a modified capitalist economy,
here in Canada. Maybe mao was right, & socialism allows for all
types of contradictions (qwhich leads me to the story of the
died-in-the-wool leftie I know who took his friends for 7 million
bucks). Conclusion: there are sleazebags on both sides of the
fence...
      Still thinking,
                  Ian
From: rrbk50@email.sps.mot.com (Rick Cottle)
Subject: Re: Amway
Originator: root@mogate.sps.mot.com
Organization: SPS
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 16:20:10 GMT

> [stuff deleted]
>
> Posting my pin/level/whatever, ok.  Posting how long I've been in, no,  
on the
> grounds that everyone builds at a different rate and whatever I put in  
will
> either discourage people who are slower than me or give a false sense of  
worth
> to those who are faster than me.  Posting how much I've earnt, NO WAY.   
That is
> NONE of your business.
> 
>>  
{************************************************************************* 
******
> ** Craig D. Beere  (a.k.a. ++Byron)
> ** University of Waikato, New Zealand
> ** CDB@waikato.ac.nz
> *}
> {$I standard_disclaimer}
> {$I witty_quote}



My point was that every time a current distributor posts
something about Amway, he always includes the same lines of
hype like a) I get to associate with all sorts of wonderful
people, and b) ps, the money is really good too.  Nobody
every wants to say why they think the money is good because
I seriously doubt that they are making money.  They just
want to believe it so bad that they keep saying it.

I suspect this is true of you, too.  The standard disclaimer is
that if you don't succeed in Amway it is because you are lazy or
stupid (to paraphrase you).  If I were to invest in a _REAL_ 
business, then I would expect them to tell me exactly how much
time and money would be required, the expected payback and 
documented examples of others who have succeeded.

I hope you are successful with this thing.  I think you would
agree that it is not for everybody.

rick
From: m21690@mwunix.mitre.org (Victor Perez-Nunez)
Newsgroups: alt.business.multi-level
Subject: Re: alt.business.amway
Date: 12 Aug 92 14:02:29 GMT
Organization: The MITRE Corporation

bvernon@hpcc01.corp.hp.com (Vernon R. Blakes) writes:

>This news group should be titled ALT.BUSINESS.AMWAY.

>Who controls the postings in this group ?  
>Since the majority of posts are related to AMWAY, is it possible to create
>a separate group for just AMWAY related information/discussions ?

>Vernon (VRB)

Excuse me!!  This group applies to any multi-level business.  It just happens
that the few active participants in this group distributors of Amway products
and more than 1500 brand-name items.  

If you feel left out because you business is not mentioned.  Please, let's hear
from you.  That is what J. Noring (the originator of the group) has been 
pleading since the creation of alt.business.multi-level.

Carry on,

Victor
From: cdb@waikato.ac.nz (Craig D. Beere)
Newsgroups: alt.business.multi-level
Subject: Re: Is there a directory of MLM opportunites?
Date: 17 Aug 92 15:56:30 +1200
Organization: University of Waikato, Hamilton, New Zealand

In article <1992Aug14.120813.18620@unipalm.co.uk>,
 steve@unipalm.co.uk (Steve Ladlow) writes:
> I have had the Amway sales pitch and seen that it can work well for some
> people. One problem I have is that there are too many in my neighbourhood 
> trying to grow the business.
>
> I don't want to jump on the Amway bandwagon and would like to find new
> opportunities. Does anyone know of a directory of MLM opportunities?
> Is there a journal or magazine for MLMers?

Why do you think that because it is saturated with Amway that there is room for
other MLMs?  Is this actually what you are saying, or am I confused...?

I have often heard the view "town X is saturated with distributors of X company,
so don't start with X, start with Y".  Why is there this view that even if a
place is saturated with distributors of one MLM that there is automatically
heaps of room for another MLM?  Wouldn't it be better to say that an area is
saturated with product Y, so that MLMs selling Y will probably not have much
luck, but MLMs selling Z will be better?  Then again, is it possible to
saturate an area at all?

One comment I think is valid is "don't think small".  Don't limit yourself just
to your home town.  Get something that is nationwide, preferably worldwide. 
Here in New Zealand I have seen three multi-national MLMs.  There must be heaps
in the UK as well.

For a register of business oppertunities, try your local library (indexed under
network marketing or multi-level marketing), community noticeboards, employment
agencies.  You could place an ad in the paper - this is guaranteed to get some
very interesting replies... :-)

> MLM is bigger in the US than over here in the UK and I would expect that
> there are a number of UK people who would like to get in on the act at 
> the ground floor, with no or few people signed up. 

Why is getting in at the beginning better?  I thought that if a system
advantaged those who got in first then it was probably very close to an
illegal pyramid.

> What better way to get to the top of the levels.

Hard work.  It doesn't matter what you do, when you start, who you are, it
takes hard work to succeed.

> Steve Ladlow
> steve@unipalm.co.uk

Good luck in getting started.  I am a big subscriber to the "American" Dream,
i.e. work for yourself, not for someone else.  I read somewhere that in the
United States in the year 1900 about 90% of people worked for themselves, while
in 1990 only about 10% worked for themselves.  I wish the best to people who
want to reverse this.

Regards,
Craig

{*******************************************************************************
** Craig D. Beere  (a.k.a. ++Byron)
** University of Waikato, New Zealand
** CDB@waikato.ac.nz
*}
{$I standard_disclaimer}
{$I witty_quote}
From: cdb@waikato.ac.nz (Craig D. Beere)
Newsgroups: alt.business.multi-level
Subject: Re: Amway
Date: 18 Aug 92 03:27:31 GMT
Organization: University of Waikato, Hamilton, New Zealand

In article <1992Aug17.193120.24160@newsgate.sps.mot.com>,
 rrbk50@email.sps.mot.com (Rick Cottle) writes:
> I think that for fairness in
> advertising, all amway distributors should post 1) their current pin,
> 2) how long they've been in, and 3) what their net profits are since
> they've been in the business.  Of the hundred's of distributors I 
> know from my 2-3 years of heavy involvement, I know of maybe 2 who
> have in total made more money than they've spent.
> --
> rick 

Posting my pin/level/whatever, ok.  Posting how long I've been in, no, on the
grounds that everyone builds at a different rate and whatever I put in will
either discourage people who are slower than me or give a false sense of worth
to those who are faster than me.  Posting how much I've earnt, NO WAY.  That is
NONE of your business.

Money earnt in any business is based on so many different factors that for me
to list how much I have made would really be meaningless.  It depends on how
hard I've worked, how consistently I've worked, where I've worked, what tools
I've bought, where I've spent petrol money, and so on and so on and so on. 
Someone who puts in 5 hrs a wek of smart work will be better off than someone
who puts in 10hrs a week of inneffectual work.  How are you going to measure
these so they are comparable?

Ask the company backing whatever business idea you are looking at for some
money details.  They will be able to provide some average figures which will
be far more useful for you as well as far more accurate than trying to judge
the work of an MLM based on the earnings of a few distributors.

Also, why just restrict this to Amway dealers?  I think there is value in
everyone posting their level of achievement.  Why don't we all start by posting
out bank balances, our SAT scores, our grades through University, our shoe
sizes,...

As you can see I am being silly here.  There is a line to be drawn as to when
posters do and don't list their qualifications.  Personally I don't want to
be responsible for drawing that line...

As for only knowing 2 out of several hundred who are making a net profit, that
makes me sad.  There are always oppertunities to make money.  Why haven't those
people taken them?  Maybe some of them are still in their infancy in their
business, and will start making a profit when they mature?  Maybe some just
don't work?  Or work, but don't work smart?  I dunno.

Anyway, good luck with whatever you do.

{*******************************************************************************
** Craig D. Beere  (a.k.a. ++Byron)
** University of Waikato, New Zealand
** CDB@waikato.ac.nz
*}
{$I standard_disclaimer}
{$I witty_quote}
Newsgroups: alt.business.multi-level
From: jsautter@IMD.Sterling.COM (John Sautter)
Subject: Re: alt.business.amway
Organization: Sterling Software, IMD
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 03:37:57 GMT
X-Md4-Signature: 442e6592600835419648df379b4de6a8

In article <75690003@hpcc01.corp.hp.com> bvernon@hpcc01.corp.hp.com (Vernon R. Blakes) writes:
>This news group should be titled ALT.BUSINESS.AMWAY.
>
>Who controls the postings in this group ?  
>Since the majority of posts are related to AMWAY, is it possible to create
>a separate group for just AMWAY related information/discussions ?
>
>Vernon (VRB)

 I agree, this is realy boring.  This group should be discussing multi-
level marketing, sales, how to close, helping people etc.
-- 
INTERNET: jsautter@IMD.Sterling.COM
Newsgroups: alt.business.multi-level
From: J024330@LMSC5.IS.LMSC.LOCKHEED.COM
Subject: Re: zep
Organization: Lockheed Missiles & Space Company, Inc.
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 92 18:36:45 GMT

From: abulloch@garnet.berkeley.edu (Anthony Bulloch at Sather Gate) writes:

:hudson@athena.cs.uga.edu (Paul Hudson Jr) writes:
:
:>Does anyone know if a company called zep chemical sells cleanup chemicals
:>through mlm?
:
:I don't know about zep, I'm afraid.  But there's a company called
:Espial which manufactures 100% green and non-toxic products, and
:they have a complete range of household cleaners (personal-care
:items too).  I can let you have more info if you are interested.
:(Unlike most environmental products these are _very_ effective,
:and I think Espial is the only company that carries a complete
:range [environmentally and personally healthy, that is].)
:
:Anthony Bulloch
:abulloch@garnet.berkeley.edu

Anthony,

I've read your posts on several occasions and noticed that a lot of them
are invitations to seek more information from you on various MLMs you're
involved in.  Question:  Have you been successful recruiting individuals
from USENET?

Chris
From: abulloch@garnet.berkeley.edu (Anthony Bulloch)
Newsgroups: alt.business.multi-level
Subject: Re: zep
Followup-To: alt.business.multi-level
Date: 14 Aug 1992 16:58:15 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: garnet.berkeley.edu

In article <1992Aug13.213700.29725@athena.cs.uga.edu> 
hudson@athena.cs.uga.edu (Paul Hudson Jr) writes:

>Does anyone know if a company called zep chemical sells cleanup chemicals
>through mlm?

I don't know about zep, I'm afraid.  But there's a company called
Espial which manufactures 100% green and non-toxic products, and
they have a complete range of household cleaners (personal-care
items too).  I can let you have more info if you are interested.
(Unlike most environmental products these are _very_ effective,
and I think Espial is the only company that carries a complete
range [environmentally and personally healthy, that is].)

Anthony Bulloch
abulloch@garnet.berkeley.edu

Newsgroups: alt.business.multi-level
From: tvern.esae@xerox.com (tom vernier)
Subject: Shareware for running Amway biz???
Reply-To: tvern.esae@xerox.com
Organization: Xerox Corporation, Webster NY
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 19:38:45 GMT

I don't have CIS access, so if anyone has pointers to
a shareware package for running an amway business, I'd
appreciate it.

tom

Newsgroups: alt.business.multi-level
From: viviana@igor.tamri.com (Vivian Aldridge)
Subject: Suggestions for motivation? Right newsgroup?
Organization: TOSHIBA America MRI, South San Francisco, CA
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 92 22:02:27 GMT


Hi everyone,

Perhaps I'm lost, but at least I know I need help. I'm
trying to find a newsgroup to discuss quality circles
and motivation techniques. Anyone have any suggestions
about what newsgroup would be appropriate?

thanks,
Vivian

viviana@tamri.com


Newsgroups: alt.business.multi-level
From: CCENS03@USLVM.USL.EDU
Subject: Re: OBE Newsgroup Name
Organization: University of Southwestern Louisiana
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 14:10:16 GMT

In article <Bsvx72.GyD@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca>
mjanzen@healthy.uwaterloo.ca (Michael Edward Janzen) writes:
 
>I've spent a lot of time choosing between 2 grad schools.
>On Sunday I had a dream about #1 (the one I eventually chose).
>It had a strong hint that going would be a mistake.
>Yesterday I had a dream about #2, in which I stated that I
>wanted to go there.
>
>I wonder whether I should really have gone to #2 instead.
>Do you think the dreams might mean this, or is it just
>an invention of my anxiety?
 
It could be an invention of your anxiety.  However, did you visit both places
before deciding?  How did each one feel?  If #1 seemed better for academic
purposes, but #2 had a better feel, either the school or the area, perhaps you
would have done better to choose it.  Try imagining that you've decided to quit
#1 and go to #2 instead.  See if that makes you feel any better.  If not, don't
worry about it;  you're probably just nervous about it.
 
                                           Ellen
From: 9125113g@lux.latrobe.edu.au (Mitch Davis)
Newsgroups: alt.oobe
Subject: Re: This naming stuff!!
Date: 21 Aug 92 04:43:31 GMT
Organization: La Trobe University

In article <1992Aug20.145745.1934@javelin.sim.es.com> KHATCH@130.187.170.178 (kh) writes:
>In <1992Aug19.161436.14169@doug.cae.wisc.edu> christin@cae.wisc.edu writes:
>
>> What is wrong with alt.oobe??  I like it!!  
>
>I'd go for that. Let's just make a decision and get on with it!

I'll third that.  We've spent so long crapping on about what the darned
newsgroup is going to be called, and we've wasted good time we could
have been hand-holding (if you like).

Here's my contribution.

I've got a friend who regularly goes oob.  She does it daily.  Cool
person.

I've only had one of what I could call an OOBE.  I was walking home one
night from the railway station, about 1 km.  It was very boring.  I
turned my mind off, as I often do (you're practically a zombie - you
just keep walking, and can talk slowly, but you're not you), when I felt
that it would be interesting to "let go" of my body.  It was as if it
was an effort to stay in my body, so I let go, and I came out.  I didn't
go far, but my body and I were'nt one.

Although I can turn my brain off alright, I've never managed to
duplicate it again.

Could what I had be called an oobe?  If not (and even if so), how can I
get back out, so to speak?

Mitch.
Newsgroups: alt.oobe,alt.config,alt.dreams,alt.paranormal,alt.consciousness
From: mjanzen@healthy.uwaterloo.ca (Michael Edward Janzen)
Subject: Re: OBE Newsgroup Name
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 19:09:01 GMT


I've spent a lot of time choosing between 2 grad schools.
On Sunday I had a dream about #1 (the one I eventually chose).
It had a strong hint that going would be a mistake.
Yesterday I had a dream about #2, in which I stated that I 
wanted to go there.

I wonder whether I should really have gone to #2 instead.
Do you think the dreams might mean this, or is it just
an invention of my anxiety?


Newsgroups: alt.oobe
From: KHATCH@130.187.170.178 (kh)
Subject: Re: Survey
Organization: Terra Incognita
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 15:16:17 GMT
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.11

In <1992Aug21.041324.6297@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au> int766m@lindblat.cc.monash.edu.au writes:

> ABOUT OOBE's  :-
> It is said, that dreams (in color) are nothing other than unconscious oobe's.

Or vice versa!

> If one were to look at the physical body and the astral body, one would find
> that there is a silver cord connecting the two.

That's what the books say, but I've never seen any indication of this. Anyone 
else?

Newsgroups: alt.oobe
From: KHATCH@130.187.170.178 (kh)
Subject: Re: Survey
Organization: Terra Incognita
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 14:33:19 GMT
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.11

In <18AUG199201125552@zeus.tamu.edu> wdb3926@zeus.tamu.edu writes:

> About how long do your oobe's last?  (1min, 10min, 30min, or longer)  

Originally one or two minutes, recently up to an hour (or more, it's hard to 
tell for sure).
 
> When you begin the oobe, do you start in the room?  
> 				or start in a void?  or where? 

Always in my bed 
 
> 	about how far do you travel away from your physical body? (in meters)

Sometimes I don't completely seperate. At other times I travel many miles
away. My room is always very normal but the farther away I get, the less
familiar my surroundings become. The rest of my house, for instance, is never
familiar. 

> 	do you ever see your physical body?

Occasionally. Sometimes I see a shadowy representation of it. Sometimes 
nothing is there. My wife is usually just as I would expect her to be.
> 
> Do you every see someone else during the oobe?  who?

  At first I never saw people. Then I began to seem them at a distance.  Only
in my last experience did I meet and talk with anyone. One was a friend from
work, the others were strangers.  All seemed to be going about their normal
daily affairs. 

> I have trouble convincing people that oobe's exist.  I seems that
> we need some kind of scientific data to prove that they occur.
> Does anyone have any ideas about how to prove that oobe's occur
> and that they are not halucinations or dreams?

  I would like to believe that they are metaphysical in nature, but for now I
my conclusion is that they are some type of dream.  I intend to try an
experiment like our card test eventually.  For now I am going through a list
of experiments to hone my OBEing skills. 
 
> Texas 

Could you provide some of this info about your own experiences?

Thanks,

kh
Newsgroups: alt.oobe