From: khaikin@boa.cis.ohio-state.edu (dmitry khaikin)
Subject: Re: Conversion Question
Organization: The Ohio State University Dept. of Computer and Info. Science
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1992 19:18:56 GMT

In article <1992Nov22.093616.18914@u.washington.edu> nobby@hardy.u.washington.edu (Vitaly Shmatikov) writes:
>In article <1992Nov22.080755.12340@cis.ohio-state.edu> khaikin@boa.cis.ohio-state.edu (dmitry khaikin) writes:
>>In article <1992Nov22.064332.13347@u.washington.edu> nobby@hardy.u.washington.edu (Vitaly Shmatikov) writes:
>>>In article <1992Nov22.054749.7481@cis.ohio-state.edu> khaikin@boa.cis.ohio-state.edu (dmitry khaikin) writes:
>>>
>
>[... I deleted the story. If Dima considers it unimportant then it makes
>     no sense to send it back and forth. ...]

The story that you deleted is probably the most important thing in my
post. The story about the xians getting points for converting someone is
not that important. Although, I do not think you misunderstood that from
my previous post...


>
>>>You see, I'm not a Christian. But is there any need to churn in hatred
>>>and bring wild accusations which in this case are also totally
>>groundless?
>>
>>They are not groundless. And I know that many people are not going
>>to like this, but if that's what it takes to stay Jewish, then yes. But
>>Orthodox Jews don't hate xtians, although I am sure some do (can't blame
>>them either, I personally have a lot of reasons to hate them, but I
>>don't, believe it or not I don't). Now, ideal is not to hate anybody,
>>but if we are deciding between hating a xian and being a Jew then yes
>>you should definately choose hating a xian. Although, it is better to
>>remain a Jew and not hate a xian. See, things like this come up and they
>>would never have came up in an Orthodox setting, there is not need for
>>them to come up. You don't hate people, that's all. It is one of our
>>main believes: Love another like you love yourself.
>
>Well, I don't like the particular way you put it but basically I agree. 
>'Being a Jew' is very important for me although I am aware of various
>interpretations of Jewishness. However, I would abhor making a choice
>between being a Jew and not hating somebody. If 'being a Jew' in an
>otherwise peaceful situation involves hatred to another human being
>there must be some fundamental flaw in one's concept of Jewishness.
>

As I said earlier that that choice has its contradictions, but it is
better to remain a Jew.

>Let me talk about it straightforwardly. I am proud of being a Jew
>but I adamantly refuse to discriminate among other people on the basis
>of their religious affiliation or ethnicity. If, G-d forbid, I find myself
>in a situation where I must choose I will most definitely opt for being a Jew 
>but not as blithely as you would do it.

I am proud of being a Jew as well, and as you I refuse to discriminate
people on basis of their religion. And what do you think discrimination
is? Saying that in a Jewish newsgroup I don't care if some xtian reads
something that he finds it offensive because he should not have been
reading this newsgroup in the first place? Is this discrimination? I
don't think so. 

When did I ever say that I would do it blithely? I think never. It is
not even proper to say that. I would do it with no doubt with no doubt
in my mind, that is more correct way of putting it. I would not be happy
because that choice would bring up a lot of contradiction in my life.

>
>[... deletions ...]
>
>>>When your sermons remained within the framework of Judaism they looked fine. 
>>>But once you ventured outside you indiscriminately smeared a lot of people
>>>in a couple of wide sweeps. They might be 'goyim' for you. But if this is
>>>the case how can you expect them to treat *your* beliefs with due respect if 
>>>they happen not to share them?
>>>
>>>nobby@u.washington.edu
>>>
>>>[... rest deleted ...]
>>
>>Note, that there is a big difference between goyim and xians. xians are
>>goyim, but goyim are not necessarily xtians. Now if they are xtians then
>>it is not the place for them to complain. They can read it they can even
>>respond, nobody is saying they can't respond, but I am not considering
>>them as part of this newsgroup and will simply not respond. It is enough
>>troble to worry about people that are going to misinterpret what I said,
>>if I am going to worry about xtians too... I don't really care. It is
>>like would get offended at me writing the name of j. not capitalized.
>>Could they get offended at that? Yes. Am I going to start writing it the
>>way they write it and care if they get offended if I don't? NO, I won't.
>>This is a Jewish newsgroup, so I don't really care if I am going to say
>>something offensive to xians because I assume that they should not be
>>reading it anyway. With any other newsgroup is another issue, but with
>>this one, that is it.
>>
>
>*shrug* I do not understand. You offend people when they're not present.
>In my book this is not polite. You shouldn't worry about misinterpretation
>since your message was clear enough. I happen to dislike it *as a Jew*.
>I think your posting is insultive not only because it demonstrates 0
amount of  
>tolerance (which is your right that I'm not going to challenge) but also 
>because it makes some very arguable claims to sustain the point (and here I 
>step in because I do not believe your facts are correct on any major scale).

No, what I said was not what you wrote. What I said was that IF somebody
gets offended just because they are xtians, it is their problem because
this was not originally for them to hear. I do not indend to offend
anybody, but if they do I have no control over it. I am about to stop
writing about very important things like conversion to Judaism just
because xtians get offended by it. I don't hate xtians, in fact, I have
some friends who are xtians and we get along just fine, we just don't
talk about it. Why? Because it is not for them to hear what I really
think about xnity.

>
>>You said that you are not a xtian. Well, the way you put it you are not
>>Jewish either. What are you? Am I right to say that you are from Russia?
>
>Yes, I am from Russia and I am as Jewish as you are (oops! I'm not a Kohen :-).
>If you imply religion as a criterium for Jewishness then I am not a Jew
>along with millions of other unreligious Jews. You see, I sincerely tried
>to adopt religion as the way of life. Unfortunately, my attempt was to no
>avail because I was unable to reconciliate my view of the world as a student
>of science with the religious prospective touted by Judaism.

No, I did not imply that at all. And, yes, you are a Jew, even though
you don't observe mitzvot.

>
>I believe in intellectual honesty. Either I put up with the notion that, say,
>evolution is a hoax and the word of RAMBAM is worth more than a bunch of
>Nobel laureats with their microscopes and accelerators, or I put Talmud
>away and return to my textbooks. Don't pick on evolution, I have dozens
>of other examples in stock. Your choice is valid but so is mine.

Your choice is yours. That I will agree on, but valid? No, it is not.
The fact that you could not get yourself to accept something does not
make it valid at all.

>I cannot come from synagogue to my cognitive science class and believe
>simultaneously that a). whatever I think and cognate is inspired by some
>supreme being, and b). it's a peculiar pattern of activation in the neural
>network cells that underlies all my feelings and perceptions. Maybe a bad 
>example though.  It's too late and I can't find Feynman's book where he 
>describes his visit to some L.A. yeshiva. Wording is mine: "while the world is
>so infinitely complex and contains so many mysteries that are only
>starting to unveil these guys waste their time delving into millenium-old
>books and lock their horns over the cryptic meaning of some aramaic symbol
>which gives them no knowledge whatsoever about the universe in all its
>unimaginable sophistication." I simply do not believe in the power of
>Talmud or even Torah for that matter. But I do believe in the power of
>scientific approach to things which, alas, doesn't get along with the
>religious one.

Now, this is not even Judaism. This is atheism. Even Reform people
believe in the pwer of Torah. That what our religion is based on. How
can you judge or argue somebody who is religious and then say that yo
don't believe in the power of Torah. There is no argument then. You have
different base believes, which I think is a brainwashing, but by Soviet
way of life, not by Orthodox. People don't waste their time studing
Torah and they do find out alot that you can't find out in a scientific
book. The myth that religion is agaist science is a myth and was
brainwashed into Soviet people. So, they don't waste their time studing
Torah, you should try it sometime too. Not for one week though, longer.
Then you can at least get some idea what Torah really gives you. I feel
sorry for you since you had not had the opportunity to learn the things
I did. You should not stop and give up on the religion though. I am in
Computer Science by the way and that does not contradict anything in
Judaism. 

>
>I expect a reasoned argument. And please stick to the facts and think twice
>before you post next time that churches give 2 points to everybody who
>converts a Jew while regular prozelytes are worth only 1. 
>

I don't really care if you believe that story or not, but it is a fact
and did not lie about anything. It happenned, you don't believe it? So, be
it. I have harder time reading that you don;t believe in the power of
Torah and Hashem! And I do think more then two times before I write
something into this newsgroup. 

Thanks,
Dima
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  "A word is worth one coin; silence is worth two."_____ The Talmud.
  "Silence is good everywhere, except in connection with Torah."____ The Zohar.
   khaikin@cis.ohio-state.edu (Dmitry Khaikin, Columbus Ohio, USA)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish