From: danoc@earlybird.Eng.Sun.COM (Dan O'Connell [CONTRACTOR])
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: what is the meaning of Genesis3, for real dough!
Date: 3 Sep 1992 17:55:55 GMT
Organization: Subvert the Dominant Paradigm, Inc.
NNTP-Posting-Host: earlybird

I wrote:

 > Did Adam and Eve have a choice?
  No. God created them the way they were, if god is omniscient,
  he knew the choice and (his) reaction in advance.
 
(Paul Harvey) replies:

 Yeah, but even we can predict the outcome, don't you think? I mean after
 all, putting the tree right in the middle and telling them about it and
 then sending the snake to do the dirty work.

And as you mentioned earlier, this puts "original sin" 
in a different light.
 
 > Did the serpent know more?
 >Apparently, the serpent knew more than god.
 
 Interesting. Are we worshipping the wrong one after all these years?

Yes, one could make the argument: if we take the serpent for
the pursuit of knowledge (and technology, and ....) without
any ethical or moral reflection or philosophy, then one could
say we HAVE been worshipping the serpent since the industrial
revolution at least.
 
 > Did the serpent lie?
 >He wouldn't be convicted in a 20th century court if it
 >were held that Adam & Eve were "adults", if it was held
 >that A&E were insufficiently capable adults, i.e., children,
 >then he would be culpable.
 
 Aiding and abeding the corruption of minors? But, the snake didn't lie,
 did he? He just forgot to tell Congress the whole story, don't you
 think? Was he, a CIA operative? Was he, g.bush? Biblical coverup? Single
 gun theory? Cuban operatives? Nazi connections?

Check alt.conspiracy.serpent for your non-definitive, yet
intruiging /etc/motd (message-of-the-day).
 
 > Were the three punished and if so how severe were their punishments?
 >They were punished in that they were estranged from god,
 >not to mention the bit about farming, menustration, and oh,
 >of course, death.
 
 Oh, death, yea, a ... But, about this death thing. Is that really a
 punishment? And separation from God, creation means separation, doesn't
 it? Is the life of human being really a punishment? Joys and sorrows of
 the world, just pass on the sorrows? Oh the evil and vile life of the
 flesh, just let me live a bit longer please? Life eats life and produces
 death, thus life is by nature evil?
 
Good point about death and punishment. I suppose this could be 
another thread. If there were no death, there probably would
be insufficient motivation to get out of bed, eh? Also, how
would we attach ultimate meaning to our life without anything
ultimate in it (i.e., death)? Perhaps death is infinite, and
we finite beings yearning for the infinite, also yearn for death? 

We'll get to separation in a minute.

 > Is expulsion from Eden symbolic of expulsion from the uterus at birth?
>Absolutely.
 
 I knew there was some way to bring Freud into this! Now, about this
 serpent, hmm, vat is dis serpent, yah? Fallus, perhaps?

Let's not forget also: Superego=god, A&E=undifferentiated ego,
serpent=id.

And again, the almighty father is a complex, no?
The grand inquisitor? the absent one? the one who hides?
The "Be right back - Godot" who never returns from the 7-11?

 > Did they commit a sin?
 >The result of their actions was "sin", i.e., 
 >estrangement from god. The estranged themselves
 >from god by listening to the serpent as an equal
 >of god.
 
 Hmm, sin = estrangement? Is it sin to be born FROM mother through the
 birth and love canal? Separation from mother at birth sin? And listening
 to the serpent, you yourself said they were as five year olds. How could
 they know? They were just babies. Surely you can't condem? Does a baby
 sin when it is born? Does a mother sin for pushing the baby out?
 
Yes sin = estrangement, for that is the original meaning of
the word. And it is that estrangement, the unconscious
remembrance of when we were one with another, whole and safe
that we yearn for, ever after.

We must be careful how we use the word "sin". Neither the baby
nor the mother "sins" at birth, yet sin is the end result, for
estrangement as a requisite condition for the baby's individuation
is inevitable.

 > Did the serpent have knowledge of good and bad?
 >Absolutely. This is confimed by the serpent's careful 
 >wording and urging of Eve to eat the apple. It would
 >seem to show that the serpent knew beforehand what
 >the consequences would be, else why try and trick
 >Eve?
 
 The serpent could have been Buddhist and was just being true to the
 meaning of serpent. You haven't heard a peep from serpents since, have
 you?

A buddhist interpretation would imply that the serpent did 
not "tempt" Eve, merely engaged her in a philosophical
exercise; "The text does not bear this out"(tm).
 
 > If you were Adam or Eve, what would you have done?
 >Eaten two apples. Actually, I would have done whatever
 >god had previously ordained.
 
 He said you should not eat the fruit because it would bring death. How
 would you know what death means without knowing of good and bad?

One could have a view of death that saw it as a necessary
part of the endless cycle of birth and death: therefore
death need not have a "good" or "bad" label attached to it
at all, in fact death could transcend such labels all
together (it is left as an excercise for the student to
name philosophies and personages who have expounded this view).

 And if a beautiful naked woman walked up to you with fruit,
 how could you refuse? And should children always obey their
 parents? Forever?
 
This tends to support the assertion (which I agree with) that
A&E are not really culpable for their "actions" in the garden.

Also:

                                what if he should stretch out his hand and
 > take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever!" (23)So the
 
I thought A&E were already immortal. Since god gave them
death as a parting gift for picking door number one instead
of door number three (help I'm falling into harvey.speak!).

If they were already immortal, what difference would eating
from the tree of life make? And if they already were mortal,
then maybe they got to choose between knowledge and immortality
and didn't know it, AND that god would have preferred them
to be immortal and ignorant - that is was the crafty serpent
who changed things once and for all. . . .

 I wonder what other kinds of trees He's got?

Hmmmmm! Where is a talking serpent when you need one?
 
Dano
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc