HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: muffy@remarque.berkeley.edu (Muffy Barkocy)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: Rights or Privilege
Date: 29 Jul 92 16:33:20
Organization: Natural Language Incorporated
NNTP-Posting-Host: remarque.berkeley.edu
In-reply-to: cjmchale@dsg.cs.tcd.ie's message of 29 Jul 92 11:00:46 GMT

In article <1992Jul29.110046.14179@dsg.cs.tcd.ie> cjmchale@dsg.cs.tcd.ie (Ciaran McHale) writes:

>Whenever I hear the term heterosexual-privilege (especially if it is
>directed at me or bi-folk) it sounds very much like an accusation.

>It's the word "privilege" that does this. It seems to be that the phrase
>"(basic human) rights" would sometimes be more appropriate. For example,
>is heterosexual-privilege really a privilege that heterosexual have or
>it a basic right which queer folk are denied?

>[Aside:
> Strangely, I don't feel the same knee-jerk reaction when the phrase
> male-privilege is used as when heterosexual-privilege is used. Yet still
> I think that it is not so much a privilege which men have, but rather a
> set of rights which are denied women.
>]

I posted on something like this a while ago on soc.feminism.  Often,
when women (generalized) say "we wanted to be treated like people," men
(generalized) say "oh, you wouldn't want to be treated like *us*, we
have it really bad, too."  So, I posted and pointed out that, first,
women didn't want to be treated like "men" they wanted to be treated
like "people" and, second, that yes, there was a basic level of decent 
treatment that I think "people" should receive that neither group is
currently receiving.  We can debate all we want on who has it better,
but the point is that I don't think that anyone is getting this basic
decent treatment.

On the other hand, some people *are* getting a lot better treatment from
society than others.  It's not "men" or "heterosexuals" or "whites" or
whatever, it is people who are most or all of the "acceptable" things.
Heterosexual people who are polyamorous, for example, can't marry (at
the same time) everyone they want to make a commitment to.

I guess what this means are that there are levels of treatment,
depending on how far (and in how many ways) out from "normal" (bleah)
you are.  Being "male" isn't enough.  Being "heterosexual" isn't enough.
Adding up a bunch of those things seems to get you a semblance of a
decent set of rights, but most people can't do that.

Muffy
--

Muffy Barkocy | muffy@mica.berkeley.edu | wi.4636@wizvax.methuen.ma.us
~Little round planet/in a big universe/sometimes it looks blessed/
 sometimes it looks cursed/Depends on what you look at, obviously/
 But even more it depends on the way that you see~ - Bruce Cockburn
Xref: sparky soc.bi:9237 talk.bizarre:22547
From: ken@aiai.ed.ac.uk (Ken Johnson)
Newsgroups: soc.bi,talk.bizarre
Subject: Ken visits London
Date: 21 Jul 92 10:10:35 GMT
Followup-To: poster
Distribution: uk
Organization: Bugs-R-Us


I'll be in London on 26 and 27 July.  Anyone want to say hello?

-- Ken "I'm sure you're all thrilled" Johnson



-- 
                          ////  Ken Johnson, A I Applications Institute
We won't be meeting again ////       80 South Bridge, EDINBURGH EH1 1HN
On the slow train,        ////                 E-mail ken@aiai.ed.ac.uk
On the slow train.        ////     phone 031-650 2756  fax 031-650 6513
From: pw04@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (PAUL E. WINTERS)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: Coming Out
Date: 27 Jul 92 19:21:26 GMT
Organization: Lehigh University

Gee, I hope I didn't mess anything up here, deleting and all, but I am
practically computer illiterate.  If this message is getting back to the rest
of the group, then first of all I want to say thank you for the warm (very)
welcome that I have received since my first post.  Thanks to Michael, Olaf
and Ciaran (I hope I got that spelling right).  It's really nice to have
people to flirt with without them knowing just how ugly I really am.  I have
two additional things to say (question and comment).  First the question.  I
have been doing some reading on bisexuality, and I have noticed a lot of
explicit connection of New Age spirituality with lesbian, bisexual, and gay
identity.  An atheist myself, I wonder how many others feel the need of a
spiritual connection, one that is perhaps denied them by organized religion.
Or am I barking up the wrong tree?  Now the comment.  To Brad who wrote the
long story (if you're reading); I prefer, even though women are not currently
and might never again be a part of my sexual experience, to retain the label
bisexual for my self-identity, if only because I don't want to deny all of the
years of wonderful experience I have had with women, but partially because I
believe the label (and the identity) has so much subversive potential.  "Queer"
isn't bad as a political rallying point, but it is too ill-defined for my
deep-down sense of identity.  I'd like to see a world in which all forms of
self-identity were allowed equal validity, and part of what I like about being
bisexual is that it (the identity) foregrounds the ability to choose more than
one thing at a time, if that makes sense.  Anyway, I'd like to say thanks
again for the welcome.          Peace,   Paul.
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: asuccop@milton.u.washington.edu (Annemarie Succop)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: where the women are?
Date: 30 Jul 92 19:20:58 GMT
Article-I.D.: milton.asuccop.712524058
Organization: University of Washington



	hmm well i'm a social flirt; i flirt w/ppl in general.

	if it's someone i like, i flirt more.

	& then i'll try to work me being bi into conversation, so that she
	knows i actually might be seriously flirting w/her.

	sometimes this method works; sometimes it scares off closetted types
	that i might not really want to scare off.

	my big conflict of interest prob is that a lot of tradional het girl
	social behavior (fixing someone's clothes etc) can be read as flirting;
	when my cute het female friend puts her arm around me, what's the deal?
	i usually watch & try to figure it out before doing anything
	potentially embarassing.

	same thing for boys tho; sometimes even orientation appropriate ppl 
	act friendly when they mean 'i'd like to talk to you more but would
	never consider sleeping w/u'; sometimes that's what i mean, too.

	annemarie
	asuccop@u.washington.edu
From: J.W.Harley@newcastle.ac.uk (Jon Harley)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: Touching and the Party
Date: 21 Jul 92 12:40:27 GMT
Organization: University of Newcastle upon Tyne, UK, NE1 7RU

sarrowsm@nyx.cs.du.edu (Sion the raspberry-bearer) writes:
>
>I feel I should throw something into this, as one of the people at the
>party who, for the most part, was keeping their hands to themselves.
>I'm just not quite sure what point I should be making.  It's not a
>problem I've ever run into -- people generally leave me alone, and I've
>still got too much "social training" and assorted other things from
>my childhood saying "Don't touch!"  To my mind, the problem lies in
>distinguishing a friendly touch from a sexual one -- because of (my)
>upbringing, I have no real way of telling the two apart.

I think it's due to my upbringing that I'm so keen on touch - it's a
reaction against being brought up with the standard british "social
training". 

>What  intreests me is that we are in a situation where breaking down
>social conventions is actually hurting people -- part of me is saying
>"It isn't worth that price to destroy conventionalism" while another
>says "Ah, but it's the conventionalism that's hurting them in the
>first place!"

I'd agree more with the second point of view - I think the problem really
arises from not breaking down enough of the conventions. Getting rid of
the one that inhibits affectionate touching has to go hand in hand with
that of being too polite to tell someone that what they're doing is
unwelcome. So long as you break down all the related social conventions
at the same time (and so long as everyone does it at the same time)
everyone should be comfortable. But of course, this isn't a perfect world.

>  We carry so much excess baggage from our upbringings
>that it's really hard to find what's at our centre.

Certainly true. I often wonder if there *is* anything at my centre other
than a mass of contradictory neuroses...

>Oh, that's a load of incoherent rubbish....

Bollocks, it was lucid and interesting and you deserve a platonic *HUG*
for saying it.


/jon
   ___________________ ____ ________________________________________
  / -- Jonathan Harley \  /_     One of the "merry scurrying       //    //  //
 / J.W.Harley@ncl.ac.uk \/ /     pixy folk"  (--John Fisher)      // // //////
/_Phone:UK 091 222 8504__\/__[B2t+w-g+svrp]___________________///////////  //
Newsgroups: soc.bi,soc.motss
From: ry@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (ryerson.schwark)
Subject: Re: The War Between Us (Long)
Organization: UNIX System Laboratories, Summit, NJ
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 14:05:14 GMT

In article <Bs0Ku2.Cv1@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu> dbshapco@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu (Brad Shapcott) writes:

Brad,

Why didn't you just say "WHINE!" and save a whole bunch of lines? Poor
baby, if us queers don't accept you Het marriage priviledge and all,
you'll just go off and call yourself Bisexual!  Oh gosh, I'm so hurt!
Get over yourself! If steve's comment pissed you off then flame him
rather than whining to all of us!

Ry Schwark
back from the con,
tired and back and work
and I don't feel like camping!
ry@usl.com
From: heath@athena.cs.uga.edu (Terrance Heath)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: Rights or Privilege
Date: 29 Jul 92 13:53:33 GMT
Organization: University of Georgia, Athens

In article <1992Jul29.110046.14179@dsg.cs.tcd.ie> cjmchale@dsg.cs.tcd.ie (Ciaran McHale) writes:
>Sometimes terms like male-privilege or heterosexual-privilege are used.
>Whenever I hear the term heterosexual-privilege (especially if it is
>directed at me or bi-folk) it sounds very much like an accusation. This
>in turn can lead to defensive knee-jerk reactions which tend to hinder
>productive discussion.
>
>It's the word "privilege" that does this. It seems to be that the phrase
>"(basic human) rights" would sometimes be more appropriate. For example,
>is heterosexual-privilege really a privilege that heterosexual have or
>it a basic right which queer folk are denied?

It is a basic right which queer folx are denied. However, I define it
as priviledge for that reason - when one group enjoys benifits that
are denied to another, that group is priviledged over the other group.

>[Aside:
> Strangely, I don't feel the same knee-jerk reaction when the phrase
> male-privilege is used as when heterosexual-privilege is used. Yet still
> I think that it is not so much a privilege which men have, but rather a
> set of rights which are denied women.
>]

So why can't you apply the same concept to heterosexual priviledge.

>Does anybody else have any thoughts on this?

Yeah, but I've already exhausted them in another thread.

-- 
"Black men loving black men is THE revolutionary act!"
			-Joseph Beam_
Terrance Heath 
heath@athena.cs.uga.edu
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: ELAINE@brownvm.brown.edu (Elaine M. Brennan)
Subject: Re: John's sex life
News-Software: BNN via BNN_POST v1.0 beta
Organization: Brown University - Providence, Rhode Island  USA
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 13:56:10 GMT

In article <nsn86a4@fido.asd.sgi.com>, kenj@kambo.corp.sgi.com (Ken
``Blackfur'' Jones) said:

>BTW, it feels odd to banter on the newsgroup instead of the BISEXU-L
>list.  Sorta like going on vacation and bumping into a good friend
>from your home town.  soc.bi isn't my usual venue; it's easier to
>skip articles here when I'm running short on time (like I have for
>the past few weeks).  Whereas BISEXU-L, being a mailing list, is far
>more intrusive and less easy to ignore.
>
>- Ken

Yeah, but some of the usual suspects are still watching ...

Elaine
From: h431@quads.uchicago.edu (heather e blair)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: could you repost young and queer?
Date: 24 Jul 92 20:02:33 GMT
Reply-To: h431@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations

Scott,
Several people have asked me to email them the young and queer article.
I wonder if you could repost it?  Any others agree?


-- 

- Heather Blair       h431@midway.uchicago.edu
From: jclark@sdcc3.ucsd.edu (John Clark)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: The Party
Date: 23 Jul 92 01:16:22 GMT
Organization: University of California, San Diego

In article <1992Jul22.075711.1593@drycas.club.cc.cmu.edu> porsupah@drycas.club.cc.cmu.edu writes:
+In article <memo.something-I-can't-remember-what@cix.compulink.co.uk>, cliveg@cix.compulink.co.uk (Clive Grace) writes:
+
+>>> but who'se going to break the stories? spread the dirt?
+>>>I think we need to design a roadmap to work out who was with
+>>> whom... and when... and how... using what.
+
+ Sounds like less a matter for cartography than advanced topology..  >chuckle<

Giving new meaning to homeomorphism. Maybe that should be
bimorphism. I.e bijective continouous map and continuous
inverse map.
-- 

John Clark
jclark@ucsd.edu
Newsgroups: soc.bi,soc.motss
From: ry@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (ryerson.schwark)
Subject: Re: Screaming Yellow (Re: The War Between Us (Long))
Organization: UNIX System Laboratories, Summit, NJ
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 14:17:07 GMT

In article <1992Jul28.110215.18585@spdcc.com> joe@spdcc.com (Joseph Francis) writes:
>*PRIVILEGE*
>*PRIVILEGE*

I will spell this word however the fuck I feel like spelling it.  Now if you'll
bend over, Grandmama will show you right where to put spelling whines.

ry@usl.com
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: cmclark@dri.com (Chip Clark)
Subject: Re: As Is - 
Reply-To: cmclark@novell.com
Organization: Desktop Systems Group/Novell, Monterey CA/USA
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 92 20:12:47 GMT

Hey - heres I post  - and request for information.

I am currently involved in a production of As Is (a play about Aids).  If
anyone has seen a production of this and can provide valuable information
as to what they liked, disliked, how character's reacted, feelings, impress-
ions and other assundries, I would greatly appreciate it.


Hope to here from lots!

Chip -

Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: julie@drycas.club.cc.cmu.edu
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Levi Strauss and the Boy Scouts of America
Date: 27 Jul 92 21:58:40 GMT
Organization: Carnegie Mellon Computer Club

From:	DRYCAS::JULIE        "Song Weaver" 27-JUL-1992 16:11:34.00
To:	IN%"bifem-l@brownvm.brown.edu",IN%"ap201102@brownvm.brown.edu"
CC:	JULIE
Subj:	Levi Strauss and the Boy Scouts

This is a file that was just forwarded to me that's definitely worth
some attention --Julie

*************************************************************************
Lots of times we wonder how we might make a difference towards prejudice
and bigotry.  But so many things take lots of time or money.

Here's a free way we can let voices be heard, and it won't take any more
than two or three minutes of your time.

    Steve  (Compu$erve: 76260,57)
===========

(Received from internet hub ENET.DEC.COM on 7/23/92)

Levi Strauss decided last month to no longer give Corporate donations to the
Boy Scouts of America because the Boy Scouts discriminate against gay
people.

If you wish to call Levi Strauss to give them your opinion about
their action, their 800 number is included below.  Their toll-free number
has been pounded by groups like the American Family Association and other
conservative groups.

If you are at all in support of their decision to terminate funding
because of the Boy Scout's sexual discrimination policy, please give their
Consumer Affairs hotline a call at 800/872-5384.

The man I talked to was delighted to hear from me, and asked very
strongly that we get people to call in as soon as possible as they are
getting slammed pretty hard by the conservative groups.

They will ask your name and phone number so they can call you back if they
need to take action or disconnected.  They will also ask for your zip code
for statistical demographics.

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE call if you agree, and forward to anyone who
you think might be supportive.

                        Thanks!
---
 ~ MegaMail 2.10 #0:Visualize Whirled Peas
                                                  
PCRelay:LUNATIC -> #1282 RelayNet (tm)
4.11               Lunatic Fringe~Plano,TX~214-422-2936~USR DS


******************************************************************************
Xref: sparky soc.bi:9948 soc.motss:33243
From: booter@Autodesk.COM (Elaine Richards)
Newsgroups: soc.bi,soc.motss
Subject: Re: When you Meet a Lesbian: Hints for Heterosexual Women
Date: 30 Jul 92 20:22:00 GMT
Followup-To: soc.bi
Organization: Autodesk, Inc., Sausalito, CA

In article <1992Jul29.172420.20640@dsg.cs.tcd.ie> cjmchale@dsg.cs.tcd.ie (Ciaran McHale) writes:
>
>The following appeared in a college magazine a while back.
>----cut here----
>		When you Meet a Lesbian: Hints for Heterosexual Women
[deleted for brevity]


Booter's Tips for Meeting Lesbians when you are Straight.

1. Do not pass the ball forward when playing rugby, pass it back, else
   the referee will call a foul.

2. If she pays for one round of beers, it is always gracious to pay for
   the next round.

3. Don't say, "EW! How can those actresses DO that!?!" during the love
   scene in "Desert Hearts". Just keep eating your popcorn like you 
   would during a straight love scene. 

4. Don't sit and bitch about your birth control method, especially when
   discussing artificial hormones. Its all very technical and boring,
   even in a straight crowd.

5. Its OK to talk about your boyfriend's car if she likes cars also,
   really. What you do in it is another matter.

6. Don't ask her if her short haircut causes people to call her "sir".
   Try it yourself and find out.

7. If you put your tongue in her ear, make sure you mean it. Its not nice
   to lead people on.

8. If you are going to a lesbian's house and are allergic to cats, its a
   good idea to assume that you will need to take an antihistamine.

9. Don't assume that you will not be shown baby pictures.

10. There is no rule #10


ER
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't know when it was that I scratched Fate's car door, but I should have
left a note. --Tim Mefford
From: iw@tosser.Rational.COM (Iseult White)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: And the saga continues
Date: 23 Jul 92 18:19:16 GMT
Distribution: soc.bi

bethan@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Bethan Davies) writes:

>In article <1992Jul19.195923.9390@rat.csc.calpoly.edu> pclary@mushroom.csc.calpoly.edu (Ellen Clary) writes:
>>bethan@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Bethan Davies) wrote...
>>>
>Well, there was a certain amount of 'recovery' to do.... and I didn't know
>>
>>>I even got to meet Tanaqui properly, as well...
>>
>>I was remiss in not introducing you two earlier <blush>.  I mistakenly
>>assumed you knew each other.

>Well, we did get _introduced_ .... it was just a different kind of
>introduction...:)

Oh it wasn't actually a traditional handshake was it not.  Mmmmm ...

Still it is good to  know you two finally got introduced  all
things considered.

Iseult - with a happy gossipy stirring smile on her face!




Newsgroups: soc.bi,soc.motss
From: twpierce@amhux1.amherst.edu (Tim Pierce)
Subject: Re: The War Between Us (Long)
Organization: Amherst College, Amherst MA
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 14:41:08 GMT

In article <1992Jul28.020745.18413@cbnewsl.cb.att.com> ry@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (ryerson.schwark) writes:
>In article <1992Jul27.191248.12652@dsg.cs.tcd.ie> cjmchale@dsg.cs.tcd.ie (Ciaran McHale) writes:
>>
>>Ry,
>>
>>If your *BIG* *RED* *PUMPS* are causing you pain then why don't you take
>>them off and relax your feet rather than post crap to the net.
>
>Ciaran, dearest, The issue is real, the presentation I read as a whine.

Then for Ghod's sake, SAY so.  A post with the word "WHINE!" splashed
all over it does not exactly do much for content.

>Let me repeat myself: Bis get strayt priviledge.  It doesn't matter that
>you didn't ask for it.  I didn't ask for white male priviledge, society
>gave it to me, and I can't give it back.  Acknowledge the reality, think
>about it, and move on, rather than complaining. 

You really expect me to do that?  Sure, no problem.  Because you're
right, qualifiedly: bis get strayt privilege when they're in
opposite-sex relationships.  That's true.  Now what do you want me to
admit to next?  That bis are really queers who are only in motos
relationships for the sake of straight privilege?  I don't think so.

You have no hesitation in my agreeing that it's easier for some bis to
get het privilege than most gays or lesbians, but there are two
problems I have with this little demand of yours.

(1) I am trying fuck-hard as all hell to give up what I can of that
het privilege.  I constantly identify myself as "queer" to anyone who
asks and three-quarters of those who don't.  I shout down assholes who
are laughing at gay caricatures.  Half of the time, speaking to
straight people, I identify myself as "gay."  Now I've told you you're
right, that I get het privilege for being in a motos relationship --
now I want YOU to say "Good for you," goddammit.

(2) What are you going to expect me to agree to next?  I'm not really
keen on hetboys who tell me, "Look, just admit it: gay people are
child molesters.  It's true, so just admit it, and then we can get on
with some discussion."  Fuck if I'm going to "admit" it -- yes, there
are some homosexuals who are child abusers, but that's not what you're
asking, and I completely expect you to turn around if I say "yes" and
tell me "So don't you think that homosexuality is a mental illness?"

Everyone's got an agenda, sweetheart.  What the fuck's yours?

>There are things that divide us.  That is not our weakness; that is our
>strength.

Save it for Mother Theresa.

-- 
____ Tim Pierce                / "You mean there are TWO of you, Pierce?
\  / twpierce@amherst.edu      /  God help us all."
 \/ (BITnet: TWPIERCE@AMHERST) /   -- Major Charles Emerson Winchester III
From: johnf@uhheph.phys.hawaii.edu (John Flanagan)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: John's sex life
Date: 30 Jul 92 06:24:33 GMT
Organization: University of Hawaii, Dept. of Physics & Astronomy

In article <1992Jul29.135619.22188@cs.brown.edu> ELAINE@brownvm.brown.edu (Elaine M. Brennan) writes:
>In article <nsn86a4@fido.asd.sgi.com>, kenj@kambo.corp.sgi.com (Ken
>``Blackfur'' Jones) said:
>
>>BTW, it feels odd to banter on the newsgroup instead of the BISEXU-L
>>list.  Sorta like going on vacation and bumping into a good friend
>>from your home town.
>
>Yeah, but some of the usual suspects are still watching ...

Now, now, let's not be mixing scenes.

--John

-- 
John Flanagan                          ||
johnf@uhheph.phys.hawaii.edu           ||"Don't worry, honey, 
U. of Hawaii, Dept. of Physics & Astro.|| our skirts are clean."
2505 Correa Rd., Honolulu, HI 96822    ||
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: tweaver@nyx.cs.du.edu (T.C.Weaver)
Subject: Re: Edinburgh soc.bi party
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 15:27:45 GMT

 pclary@mushroom.csc.calpoly.edu (Ellen Clary) writes:
>tweaver@nyx.cs.du.edu (T.C.Weaver) wrote...
>> pclary@mushroom.csc.calpoly.edu (Ellen Clary) writes:
>>>We need more floor shows...
>>Don't we always? & people didn't take advantage of the one in Peter's room...
>I can think of at least three different ways to interpret that sentence.

I imagine I meant all of them |-) Typical bisexual: won't confine her choices.

Tanaqui