HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets

In rec.models.rockets, iqv@vax5.cit.cornell.edu writes:

>What do people do with a payload, besides cameras?  Are there any cool things
>to send up, or what?
>					david

It depends on the how large/heavy a payload the rocket can lift...
Years ago Estes use to have a radio transmitter (I think it was the TransRoc?)
If one was electronically inclined you could rig your own spin-rate sensors,
accelerometers (back in those days many flew biological payloads as well and
some would rig heart-rate sensors and such...  MUCH frowned on nowadays!!)

The TransRoc is long gone now, although just about any small-enough 
transmitter will do the job (depends on range!).  You could also build a small
microprocessor based cpu and use it for sampling sensor data.  I also once 
saw a plan for a air-sampler to collect bacteria.

Then of course, you could also fly the ever-popular egg payload...
Oftentimes kinda messy though... :-)  :-)  (that's the challenge, get it
back in one piece!)

- Galen -
semi-resident BAR...

Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
From: soc1070                         
Subject: Re: parachute 101
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: University of Minnesota CIS
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1992 14:16:00 GMT

In article <1992Oct01.232840.188@uva386.schools.virginia.edu>, wayne@uva386.schools.virginia.edu (Tony Wayne) writes...
>I have heard some good comments about making parachutes.  For what it's
>worth, here is my 2 cents. For a little color use the *light*
>weight plastic "throw away" table cloth that is availible from
>party supply stores or the party supply section of a
>supermarket.  They come in colors like blue, red, yellow,
>green, etc.
>-Tony Wayne

One thing that I found that is great for 'chutes and is bright colored
is Pazzaz Wrap. It's basically mylar gift wrap in all kinds of funky
colors. Its also semi-transparent, so on a bright sunny day they
seem to glow! I like the red and gold my self, but the aqua is cool
too if your not recovering in an area where it could become like camo.

I have found this wrap in most gift shops and places like Target and
Kmart. I think it was 3.50 for 3 sheets that were 18x22 (?).

Tim Harincar				Kill Your Television.			
Central Minnesota 		
Association of Rocketry		
soc1070@vx.acs.umn.edu
From: mrubin@cs.umb.edu (Mark Rubin)
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
Subject: NAR section
Date: 4 Oct 92 03:13:50 GMT
Organization: University of Massachusetts at Boston

Can someone tell me if there is a Boston chapter of the NAR, and if so how
to get in touch with them.

BTW, thanks to everyone who replied to my "parachute 101" question. The scope
of the question was widely broadened giving way to real useful info!

Thanks!
-Mark
--
==========================================================================
|| Mark Rubin		|| Don't let your schooling interfere with	||
|| mrubin@ra.cs.umb.edu	|| your education.				||
|| UMass/Boston		|| 			-Mark Twain		||
==========================================================================
From: buzz@rsd.dl.nec.com (Buzz McDermott)
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
Subject: 'cheap' Aerotech motors
Date: 6 Oct 92 14:50:57 GMT
Organization: NEC America, Radio Software Dept

I just received my September/October AmSpam.  I don't know if I'm one of the
first or one of the last to get this issue.  There is an ad for RocketMan
Hobbies on page 15.  The 'No "G" Sale'.

  All single use D's:  2.70
  All single use E's:  3.70
  All single use F's:  5.70

The prices look pretty good.  Anyone ever do business with this outfit before?

(I am not affiliated with and have never done business with RocketMan Hobbies.
I just saw the ad).

============================================================================
Buzz McDermott                   Internet: buzz@rsd.dl.nec.com
NAR     13559
TRA      1785
============================================================================
From: cdt@sw.stratus.com (C. D. Tavares)
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
Subject: Re: parachute 101
Keywords: chute construction
Date: 30 Sep 92 17:29:22 GMT
Article-I.D.: transfer.6890
Organization: Stratus Computer, Inc.

In article <1992Sep30.144200.1539@HQ.Ileaf.COM>, hal@HQ.Ileaf.COM (Hal Wadleigh) writes:

> 4. Very small 'chutes should be crossform type.  Cut about a 5" square, then 
>    take out about 1.25" squares from each corner.  Attach 4 lobes of shroud
>    across the flat ends and secure as above.  Be careful to use small stickers
>    for the corner attachments.  These make good substitutes for streamers in
>    .5" body tubes and can also be used as drogues to help in the deployment of
>    large 'chutes.

One other hint.  Either round off the inside corner of that 1.25" square
or reinforce the angle with something.  Otherwise, it's a really handy 
place for the parachute to rip during a fast deployment/
-- 

cdt@pdp.sw.stratus.com      --If you believe that I speak for my company,
OR cdt@vos.stratus.com        write today for my special Investors' Packet...
From: cdt@sw.stratus.com (C. D. Tavares)
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
Subject: Re: NARAM SUMMARY????
Date: 2 Oct 92 19:56:58 GMT
Organization: Stratus Computer, Inc.

In article <19920925145200.Roger.Wilfong@umich.edu>, Roger.Wilfong@umich.edu writes:
> > > > Next NARAM will be in Fredrick, Maryland.

> > > Any one know what events?

> > I got a letter yesterday with the PROPOSED events..

> Okay, so they aren't official - yet.  Besides 1/4A (or 1/2A) PD and D EL, 
> unofficially, what are the PROPOSED events?

I finally found the letter.

1/4A Parachute Duration Multi-Round, to be changed to 1/2A if 1/4A's
               go off the market.
1/2A Streamer Duration Multi-Round
1/2A Cluster Altitude (provisional event)
A Payload
B Helicopter Duration
B Rocket/Glider
C Super-Roc Altitude
D Dual AEgg Lofting Duration (provisional event)
Sport Scale
R&D

By the way, yes, there IS at least ONE event that's held EVERY NARAM (R&D)!
-- 

cdt@pdp.sw.stratus.com      --If you believe that I speak for my company,
OR cdt@vos.stratus.com        write today for my special Investors' Packet...
From: jack@rml.UUCP (jack hagerty)
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
Subject: Re: parachute 101
Keywords: chute construction
Date: 3 Oct 92 07:59:17 GMT
Reply-To: jack@rml.UUCP (jack hagerty)
Organization: Robotic Midwives, Ltd.

In article <1992Sep30.144200.1539@HQ.Ileaf.COM> hal@HQ.Ileaf.COM (Hal Wadleigh) writes:
>1. Use fisherman's snap swivels for your attachments.  

What? And pay only $.07 each for them rather than the $.50 that rocket
companies charge for the same part?  Hmmmm.

>3. Pay special attention to the security of the attachment points.  Those
>   standard stickers often look secure, but are actually not attached.  A small
>   knot in the part of the shroud line under the sticker serves as a good
>   anchor point (with the rest of that part looped around the knot, as per
>   standard practice).

I've discovered that the best anchor on plastic/tape tab chutes is to
pass the shroud line completely through the tape tab and tie a *large*
knot on the far side (where it emerges from the tab). This prevents the
shroud from pulling out easily and lets you use the entire tab as an
anchor.

At NARAM this year, one of the Junior division research projects was
a study of attaching shrouds to plastic chutes. The kid was very
thorough and tried just about everything, including the suggestion
I just made. His data showed that if you CA the shroud, you don't
need a tab at all if you're just going after straight pull strength.

- Jack
From: cdt@sw.stratus.com (C. D. Tavares)
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
Subject: Re: Liquid fueled model rocket
Date: 28 Sep 92 17:45:37 GMT
Organization: Stratus Computer, Inc.

In article <1992Sep25.171751.19147@ultb.isc.rit.edu>, jsvrc@rc.rit.edu (J A Stephen Viggiano) writes:

> But, historical revisionism??? Political Corectness??? Moi??? Never!!!

> Perhaps the line lived for a little longer in New Jersey than it did in Texas,
> which, I believe, is where CD was at the time, because of the regulations.

Speaking of historical revisionism... Texas?!  Sorry!  In any event, I was
speaking of when Estes discontinued them, not when they became unavailable
in local stores, or unpopular in local areas.

> but they did seem to hang on
> until the beginning of the great CFC scare, which was about '74. No, there
> weren't any holes in the ozone layer at the time, and we thought the people
> talking about the inevitability of same were like Chicken Little telling us
> the sky was falling, (they were saying the same things about the SST Concorde
> just a few years before), but the CFC scare did seem to be a final nail in
> the coffin for cold power, at least in New Jersey.

I certainly don't remember a "great CFC scare" in 1974.  Not one that 
anyone took seriously, anyway.  As I remember, the big environmental scare 
that decade -- besides the SST -- was "global cooling."  Independent of a
"nuclear winter," which was another one.  I seem to remember that the CFC
stuff started in the early 80's, while Estes killed the Cold Power line
around 1976.  Maybe you were plugged into more vocal environmental zealots
than I was in Virginia.
-- 

cdt@pdp.sw.stratus.com      --If you believe that I speak for my company,
OR cdt@vos.stratus.com        write today for my special Investors' Packet...
From: cdt@sw.stratus.com (C. D. Tavares)
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
Subject: Re: Robert H. Goddard - Born 110 Years Ago Today
Date: 5 Oct 92 22:10:04 GMT
Organization: Stratus Computer, Inc.

In article <3692@key.COM>, tim@nebula.key.amdahl.com (Tim Nicholls) writes:
> 
> 	On this date (October 5) in 1882, Robert Hutchings Goddard was
>     born in Worcester, Massachusetts (about eighty kilometers west of
>     Boston).  Goddard launched the world's first liquid-fueled rocket
>     in March of 1926 in Auburn, MA, along with many other contributions 
>     to the development of modern rocketry.  Goddard died in August of 
>     1945.

Predeceasing Worcester by barely 20 years.
-- 

cdt@pdp.sw.stratus.com      --If you believe that I speak for my company,
OR cdt@vos.stratus.com        write today for my special Investors' Packet...
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
From: thomasr@cpqhou.compaq.com (Thomas Rush)
Subject: Re: Guidance
Reply-To: thomasr@cpqhou.UUCP (Thomas Rush)
Organization: Compaq Computer Corporation
Date: Mon, 05 Oct 92 12:23:51 GMT

In article <10490022@hpfcmgw.FC.HP.COM> bo@hpfcmgw.FC.HP.COM (Bo Viger) writes:
>
>We share a launch site with RC hobbists in an out-of-town (actually, middle-
>of-a-wheat-field) "failed" commercial development; read: isolated asphalt
>road, no buildings, no trees.
>
>They typically stay around their end of the road, and us around ours. ONE of
>those guys, however, insists on flying directly overhead of our launchers
>over and over again (4-5 times last Sunday). Now this wheat field's about
>1 mile on a side, and we're 1/4 to 1/2 mile away from this dude, but he 
>just won't "buzz off"! 
>
>Now we would NEVER seriously consider doing this, but everytime he flys over,
>the jokes start to rip like: "Quick, Bo, prep your Phoenix!" or "Hey, Lee,
>is that (NCR) Patriot ready to fly, yet?!" and visions of "track, launch,
>home and impact" bring big smiles to our faces.....
>

Maybe you could throw rocks at it?  Perhaps bring a pellet gun and
have target practice?  Surely neither the NAR nor Tripoli safety
codes prohibit aiming non-rocket projectiles at airborne targets!



thomas rush				uunet!cpqhou!thomasr
compaq computer corporation		their employee,
deep in the hearth of texas		not their opinions.
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
From: hal@HQ.Ileaf.COM (Hal Wadleigh)
Subject: Re: Catapault launched parasite glider
Summary: Staging model for glider release
Keywords: Release glider staging
Reply-To: hal@HQ.Ileaf.COM (Hal Wadleigh)
Organization: Interleaf, Inc.
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 92 15:20:33 GMT
Expires: 10/28/92

In article <23SEP199215033108@vx.cis.umn.edu> soc1070 writes:
> I am currently in the process of designing a parasite glider
> (details deleted)
> Any ideas on release/lock mechanisms? I thought a rear eject system
> (details deleted)

The simplest to make with standard parts would be a rear eject that uses the
usual mounts, etc. for a staged rocket.  Separation releases a trapped cord
that lets your rubber band twang the glider along the rail.  I have also found
that 'chute deployment on rear eject systems is flakey unless you use a small
drogue to pull out the main 'chute.  I also recommend plastic I-beams from
the model railroad counter for your guide rail.  You can match it with some
C-shaped balsa or alder for guides.

Good luck, it sounds interesting.
From: Roger.Wilfong@umich.edu
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
Subject: Re: parachute 101
Date: 29 Sep 92 13:20:00 GMT
Organization: UofM Hospitals

In Article <6802@transfer.stratus.com> "cdt@sw.stratus.com (C. D. Tavares)" says:
> 
> No, read what he's saying.  If two of the loops span only hexagon
> EDGES, while the third loop spans its DIAMETER, the third loop will
> obviously be shortchanged when it comes time to meet at the screw-eye.
> So he proposed making it a litle longer.  Me, I think this is overkill
> anyway, since I haven't gotten shroud lines to come out equally in 25
> years.
> 
The distance across the flat is inmaterial.  You want the distance from the 
top of the chute to the bottom of each shroud line to be equal.  If you 
assume that the chute itself is regular and all of the attachment points are
equidistant from the center, all of the shroud lines have to be the same 
length.  
I usually build 12-24 line round chutes out of Estes material (just cut 
around the outside of the red and white circle and attach at the red/white 
boundaries) because they look more like real parachutes.  I use embroidery 
floss for shroud lines and seperate the 6 strands (for 12 lines - use two 
lengths for a 24 line).  This makes a strong chute.  With out crossing the 
lines over the top of the canopy, I've only had one failure of a 12 line 
chute (an EL that tipped off dramatically - i.e. cruise missle) and never 
had a 24 line fail.  
In the 10 years I've been back in the hobby and using this technique, my 
shroud lines have always come out the same length (within a couple of percent 
tollerance).
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
From: elder@enuxha.eas.asu.edu (Greg Elder)
Subject: Is There a List of Records Available?
Keywords: model rocketry competition
Organization: Arizona State University
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 01:05:06 GMT

Is there a list of records for model rocketry competition events
available anywhere (perhaps from NARTS)?  I'd be interested in something
of the following form:

   EVENT  RECORD    RECORD HOLDER  ROCKET         ENGINE       CONTEST  YEAR
   =====  ======    =============  ======         ======       =======  ====

For example (this is a made-up example):

   A PD    38 sec.  John Smith     Super Duper II  Estes A8-3   NARAM   1989

I would assume that the NAR maintains this type of info.

--
  Greg Elder               | 
  Dept of Computer Science |  
  Arizona State University | 
  elder@enuxha.eas.asu.edu |  
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
From: jsvrc@rc.rit.edu (J A Stephen Viggiano)
Subject: Reloads & Competition (was NARAM SUMMARY)
Organization: RIT Research Corp
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 16:01:07 GMT

Let's face it, folks, we're not apt to see reloads in competition. Why not?

     1.	Sporting Code must be revised (rules specify nonmetallic engines).
	This is not a tremendous problem, as the contest board often makes
	changes.

     2.	Safety code must be revised. An aluminum casing is a "substantial
	metallic part," at least IMHO.

     3.	The regulatory situation must be resolved before the engine casings
	and reloads are widely available.

     4.	As C.D. points out, they create problems at check-in. How is the
	Check-In Officer going to know what your casing is loaded with?

     5.	Reloadables weigh more than expendables. Until this changes, they're
	not going to be competitive in most events, particularly altitude
	and duration performance events.

The first three points involve changes in rules and regulations, which I'm
confident will come, perhaps not as swiftly as we'd like. It is possible that
a solution to the fourth will offer itself before too long. Lets assume, for
the sake of argument, that it does. That leaves the fifth point. And we
can't change the laws of physics by majority vote.

To the folks who say, "Why not simply specify that an event must be flown with
a reloadable, so all participants have a more equal standing?" I reply with
the argument that that is patently unfair to competitors who do not have
reloadables. Why not allow a CD to require all participants in R/G to use
Radio Control, so that those using R/C won't have an advantage by virtue of
that fact? Why not allow a CD to stipulate that all entries in PD must be
launched from a piston? Why not allow a CD to say that all entries in B
Eggloft must use a Medalist B7 engine?

Our Sporting Code was created to treat people fairly, not protect them from
competing poorly. If I want to use a Space Shuttle model in B/G, I should be
able to do so, even though it has a glide coefficient roughly one-quarter
that of competitive models. Should I insist that all my competition fly
streamlined bricks, so they don't have an advantage over me? That would be
silly. The recent proposed rule to exclude RGs from BG competition was
silly. Allowing a contest director to exclude expendables from selected
events is equally silly.

Reloadable engines have their places, now in Sport flying, and, perhaps in the
future, in non-performance events like Scale. If a lightweight casing can
be developed, we might see them even in duration events, but this will be a
long way off.

==John Viggiano, jsvrc@rc.rit.edu
NAR 25615
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
From: buzz@rsd.dl.nec.com (Buzz McDermott)
Subject: HPR certification via clustering
Organization: NEC America, Radio Software Dept
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 16:57:51 GMT

Well, you REALLY can get NAR HPR certification using clusters (not that I
ever doubted you, C.D. :-).  This past weekend I got my 'J' certification 
flying my streched Magnum Penn Crude on 3 G80 expendables.  A friend offered
me the loan of his 38mm reload casing ('I' reloads were available at the launch)
but I wimped out and went with a minimum-qualifying flight (3 G80's = 360NS,
with > 320NS required for the certification flight).  Besides, a 'conservative'
RASP estimate (with high CD value) put the Crude well over our ceiling.
The flight went very nicely, with all 3 motors igniting. OK, so next launch our
ceiling will be a little higher (5000' AGL) and I'll go for 3 x H128 reloads in
the 'Crude (~540NS).  I suppose if I really wanted to wimp out I could have
just sent in my Tripoli confirmation card, but I really like the NAR 
certification approach.

I couldn't resist going for my 'J' card seeing as how the temp was about 75 
degrees, wind was negligible at less than 3mph, the skies were CAVU, and our 
farmer had just mowed down and harvested everything for about 500 acres all 
around!  I suppose I could have waited until the weather was better... :-).

Anyway, I never doubted you, C.D., but everyone else in DARS doubted me 
(smart people!!) and insisted on giving Pat Miller a call, who verified 
that clustering was indeed permitted.

BTW...I highly recommend multiple Microbrick Summits on H180 reloads as a 
      GREAT drag race!  Very impressive. Besides, I won :-).

============================================================================
Buzz McDermott                   Internet: buzz@rsd.dl.nec.com
NAR   13559   Now officially 'J' cerified (as soon as I mail in my form :-)
TRA    1785
============================================================================
Organization: Doctoral student, Urban and Public Affairs, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 23:11:02 -0400 
From: Lawrence Curcio <lc2b+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Drag coefficients for Estes rockets

Mandell, Caporaso, and Bengen did no drag coefficient measurement.
Someone they reference did a wind tunnel test on a model, the parts of
which are no longer available. (Century parts?) William Bengen tried to
predict the drag coefficient that was measured, but his value does not
agree. Even when you correct the arithmetic it doesn't agree :)  

The wind tunnel was homemade, and such wind tunnels are notoriously
inaccurate. The air speed used was 15 m/sec: very low indeed. 

I do not agree that a single drag coefficient has been shown to work for
an entire trajectory. Indeed I have not seen any work verifying the
predictive validity of RASP programs in the context of model rocketry. 

Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
From: buzz@rsd.dl.nec.com (Buzz McDermott)
Subject: Re: Cost of Competition (was NARAM SUMMARY????)
Organization: NEC America, Radio Software Dept
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 14:49:24 GMT

In article <19921005073058.Roger.Wilfong@umich.edu>, Roger.Wilfong@umich.edu writes:
|> > >In article <1992Sep28.225911.20271@rsd0.rsd.dl.nec.com> buzz@rsd.dl.nec.com (Buzz McDermott) writes:
|> > >>|> <comments about choice of events potentially being based on cost
|> > >>|>  considerations deleted>
|> > >>It was good thinking on the part of the CD and contest committee
|> > >>for the next NARAM to try to ensure inexpensive events were available.  That
|> > >>wasn't my opinion at first, but it is now, and I think it is the right way
|> > >>to approach an event like a NARAM.
|> > > 
|> If you are going to compete competitively, you have to be familiar with what
|> you are flying.  That involves test flying and additional expense.  While 
|> most people can afford $8 a flight for 1 or 2 contest flights, they are 
|> unwilling to invest $50 in a half dozen test flights.  

Which is more to my point.  I was talking about the potential cost if several
(or most) of the events end up requiring low-volume, contest composite
motors in order to be competitive.  It's true that the cost of a couple of
$8 motors is trivial compared to the cost of getting to, staying at, and eating
during a NARAM.  $50 for a few test flights (one event, maybe 2) is not
that much.  The danger is in calling for a number of events in which it
takes composites to be at all competitive.  All of a sudden it takes $100, 
$150 or more of test flights to work out the bugs in all of the events.
This still may or may not be significant to a senior NAR member, but what 
about a junior member?  I'm not advocating elimination of these events from
competition.  I just think that cost of the events (as a whole) is a legitimate
consideration in making the final choices.

============================================================================
Buzz McDermott                   Internet: buzz@rsd.dl.nec.com
============================================================================
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
From: billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson)
Subject: Re: NARAM SUMMARY????
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 16:48:31 GMT

cdt@sw.stratus.com (C. D. Tavares) writes:
: 
: and we don't believe it can be accurately done.  You also don't want any
: "solution" that requires disassembling the engine at check-in, since this
: is quite likely to unseat O-rings and tape diaphragms.  We've had this
: happen at S&T from simply replacing bad igniters (on many reloads, you
: have to insert the nozzle over the tail of the igniter, because the
: head won't fit through).

If that is a problem, then I would manufacture my own igniters - unless
it is prohibited by NAR rules. I prefer using thermalite - it seems to
be more reliable than Copperheads, which are better than Estes and similar
igniters.

Bill