HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: sci.med
Subject: Re: Peter Breggin, _Toxic Psychiatry_ (Q)
From: RGINZBERG@eagle.wesleyan.edu (Ruth Ginzberg)
Date: 14 Dec 92 17:56:01 EDT
Distribution: world
Organization: Philosophy Dept., Wesleyan University
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.20In-Reply-To: sasghm@theseus.unx.sas.com's message of Mon, 14 Dec 1992 19:28:15 GMTLines: 47

In <Bz9Kr3.H04@unx.sas.com> sasghm@theseus.unx.sas.com writes:
> there may be).  If I am committed to a state psychiatric institute,
> am I free to leave when I decide (for whatever reason) to terminate
> my treatment?  (Notice that the very concept of "committed" seems
> to imply a certain degree of coercion.)  If you will assure me that I
> can terminate my psychiatric treatment under the same conditions and
> with the same freedoms that I can terminate my cancer treatment,
> I withdraw any complaint.

Hi, Gary.

(Gary Merrill is a frequent contributer to the philosophy newsgroups.)

I think you are confusing psychiatric *treatment* with psychiatric
*committment*.  *MOST* psychiatric treatment is on an outpatient basis and the
patients are under no compulsion to receive it (though, true, many have been
goaded into going to the doc by their families, but this is true of people with
dermatitis & colitis & other more-or-less chronic problems, too).

A person cannot, to my knowledge, be involuntarily committed to a psychiatric
facility in the USA without a court hearing, except on a 72-hour emergency
basis.  Even a person who is involuntarily committed to a psychiatric facility
*rarely* is *REQUIRED* or *SENTENCED* to involuntary use of medication (there
have been some famous medical ethics cases about this, but a person can almost
never be involuntarily required to take psych meds, even if the person is
*sentenced* by a judge to treatment at the psychiatric facility as punishment
for a crime).

For a person to be involuntarily committed (i.e., not allowed to sign himself
or herself out and/or discontinue treatment at will), he or she must either
have been committed (by a judge) to treatment because he or she was judged to
be mentally incompetent to stand trial for a crime in which s/he is a suspect,
or been sentenced to psychiatric treatment in lieu of a prison sentence for a
crime of which s/he was judged guilty in a court proceeding, or been judged to
present an immediate danger to self or others because of mental illness in a
court proceeding.  Someone who merely hears interesting voices that nobody else
can hear, or who talks to folks that nobody else sees, or who lives in some
sort of an "alternate reality" could not be committed by a judge just for being
"different."  I.e., you can't be committed for reason of having a mental
illness;  you can only be committed for reason of engaging in illegal
*behavior*.  You can hear all the voices you want & see all the hallucinations
you want & can't be coerced to do anything about it so long as you don't
interfere with others' safety, security, privacy, etc.

------------------------
Ruth Ginzberg <rginzberg@eagle.wesleyan.edu>
Philosophy Department;Wesleyan University;USA
Newsgroups: sci.med
From: sdavis@khan.ColoSpgs.NCR.COM (Susan Davis)
Newsgroups: sci.med
Subject: Meige Syndrome (sp?) ??
Date: 15 Dec 92 22:42:37 GMT
Reply-To: sdavis@khan.ColoSpgs.NCR.COM (Susan Davis)
Distribution: world
Organization: NCR Microelectronic Products Division


My grandmother always (from my recollection) had excessive blinking.  
Following surgery in 1985 her symptoms got worse and she was diagnosed
as having "Meige Syndrome" (my spelling may be off) which is
characterized by blephrospasms (sp?) in the face (twitching/blinking etc.)
This moved from her eyes into her jaw.  She ultimately cracked off
most of her teeth and some of her crowns.  She was given injections
of botulism toxins in her eyelids and jaw every 4 months or so.  This
was considerred experimental.  It did help relax the muscles.  She also
had problems with balance and coordination.

Then, in 1990, she had some mild cold symptoms over a weekend.  While
my grandfather was driving her to a doctors appt., she slumped over in
the car.  He drove to the nearest hospital (5 min) and she was resucitated.
She remained in a coma for about 1 week.  She lived a few days after
being taken off the ventilator and then died.  She was 69.  One thought
was that the syndrome had spread into her neck/thoat and caused a spasm
that cut off her oxygen.  Maybe it was unrelated?  

There is some evidence that this may be hereditary.  I am the only female
descendent of hers (so far).  It is thought (in retrospect) that her mother
may have had some of the symptoms she had.  I would really like to find
out more about this because it may someday affect me.  I am concerned that
the general anethesia she had during her surgery (to remove an 8lb overy)
may have triggered the onset of this.  General anethesia really scares me.
Also, she sufferred from migraines and I also suffer from them.  Hers
however were triggered monthly with her period and lasted for a few days
and included vomitting.  Mine seem to be random coming up to 1/week to 
going several months without one and they are characterized by visual
disturbances in one field (auras) and numbness on one side.  I often have
speech and hearing affected (depending on which hemisphere is affected).  I
have only had nausea a few times.  Is there a connection between migraine
and this other neurological disorder??

Does anyone have any info for me??

Please respond via email if possible, Thanks :-)

- Susan
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|Susan P. Davis, Design Services |  >>>>                 Susan.Davis@ncr-mpd |  |NCR Microelectronics  (AT&T)    | >>>>         Susan.Davis@ColoSpgs.NCR.COM |  |Colorado Springs, CO            |>>>>(719) 596-5795 x435 VOICEplus 463-0435 |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: lynn@elan.Elan.COM (Lynn Gazis)
Newsgroups: sci.med
Subject: Re: Peter Breggin, _Toxic Psychiatry_ (Q)
Date: 15 Dec 92 19:58:49 GMT
Reply-To: lynn@elan (Lynn Gazis)
Organization: Elan Computer Group, Inc., Mountain View, CA

Gary Merrill writes:

> The point (again) is that failure to conform to social norms is not
> ipso facto a *disease*.

Obviously.  And I would quite agree with you, if you are referring
to things like attempts at "treatment" of homosexuality.  But you
haven't provided any evidence that making people conform to social 
norms is the normal activity of psychiatrists.

> "Behave normally" means (read the case descriptions) "not being a pain
> to other family members or people who may interact with them".  Very few
> (some, I suppose) would claim that patients being treated "successfully"
> with psycho-active drugs or ECT behave *normally*.  But at least they
> aren't a nuisance any more.

I've met a number of people in the course of my life who I later
found out to be taking anti-depressants or lithium; they were as
normal as anyone.  I have also met people (through volunteer work
with homeless people) who were on some kind of medication and
wouldn't be considered by most people to be "normal."  It depends
on the condition, and the medication.  

> And what about those patients who are perfectly happy about their
> "abnormal" behavior?  What about those patients who do not feel the
> need for treatment.  If you have not encountered a large number
> of case descriptions in which the patient is being treated at the behest
> of someone *else* (often under duress), you haven't read many cases.

I've encountered people whose treatment ranged from completely
voluntary, initiated by them because they were sick of feeling
depressed all the time, through people who went voluntarily but
under family pressure, to people whose treatment was coerced.
Your argument seems to imply that a large majority of patients
are there because they have been coerced, to make them more 
tractable to others.  That hasn't been my observation, so I
wonder what evidence you have for such a claim.

Lynn Gazis-Sax

Newsgroups: sci.med
From: cash@convex.com (Peter Cash)
Subject: Re: post-Prozac reactions
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 19:38:40 GMT
Organization: The Instrumentality
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

In article <1992Dec17.075233.20795@u.washington.edu> lamontg@stein.u.washington.edu (Lamont Granquist) writes:

>>I have started more than 600 people on prozac since 1987.  I have seen no
>>unusual discontinuation effects, and I have seen no unusual suicidality
>>or violent behavior.  

>Well, the effect that I felt wasn't much -- enough that I felt abnormal, but
>not so bad that I reported it to my doctor, particularly since it only lasted
>a few days.  It was just distinct enough for me to feel it, and If it wasn't
>the drug I'd like to hear some other explanation...  As for the violent
>behavior... well, believe what you like, I damn near chewed my mom's head off
>in a resturaunt at one point -- very out of character -- never happened
>before, never happened since, but it was about three days after lifting
>my prozac dose from 20mg to 40mg/day...  It was distinct enough that I knew
>it wasn't a genuine feeling, and had to try to supress it...

Well, depression is often said to have anger as a component (though the
anger is usually turned inward). It seems reasonable to me to suppose that
as the drug lifts your depression and you become more extroverted, your
anger is directed outside of yourself. (Perhaps at someone who genuinely
makes you angry, perhaps at an inappropriate target.) This is only a guess,
of course.

>Nortryptyline didn't do anything like this, Wellbutrin didn't do anything
>like this... 

Did they work as well? If so, why not switch back if Prozac causes
problems?


-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
             |      Die Welt ist alles, was Zerfall ist.     |
Peter Cash   |       (apologies to Ludwig Wittgenstein)      |cash@convex.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Newsgroups: sci.med
From: cfaks@ux1.cts.eiu.edu (Alice Sanders)
Subject: Re: Chapped lips and Vaseline
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 03:35:41 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Eastern Illinois University

In article <habersch.724195300@husc9> habersch@husc9.harvard.edu (Oren Haber-Schaim) writes:
>sfm@manduca.neurobio.arizona.edu (Stephen Matheson) writes:
>
>>I was told recently that it's not a good idea to apply petroleum jelly
>>to my perennially chapped lips because the petroleum jelly effect is
>>only temporary and ultimately leaves my lips in a worse state.  My
>>experience seems to confirm this, although I had always assumed it
>>was because the condtions leading to the chapping were ongoing.
>
>>Comments?
>>--
>I hadn't heard that criticism, but would avoid chronic use
>of petrolatum in any case.  It is a poorly characterized mixture
>of zillions of hydrocarbons which are foreign to the body.
>It is absorbed below the epidermis even in fully keratinized skin.
>Various associations with cancer have been known for a long time. 
>
>Tried USP lanolin?   That is what I now use every winter to avoid
>disaster on the skin on the back of my hands.
>
>
>Oren Haber-Schaim            
>habersch@husc.harvard.edu

Jeez!  I've been using it on my FACE for a long time, especially at night.
I also put it on my arms and legs in the winter time.  I sometimes use it
to remove makeup , too.  I have never heard this danger before.  Yikes!

Alice

Newsgroups: sci.med
From: wc4209@writer.yorku.ca (Irene Berkovich)
Subject: Re: Physician's Incomes
Organization: Computer Assisted Writing Centre, York University, Toronto, Canada
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 17:37:51 GMT

In article <1992Dec17.150150.21772@cs.rochester.edu> fulk@cs.rochester.edu (Mark Fulk) writes:
>In article <BzDIG5.DKv@acsu.buffalo.edu> oispeggy@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (Peggy Brown) writes:
>>In article <92351.153826DGS4@psuvm.psu.edu>, DGS4@psuvm.psu.edu writes...
>>>In article <BzBHyG.4vJ@acsu.buffalo.edu>, oispeggy@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (Peggy
>>>Brown) says:
>>>>
>>>>In article <gdavis.724433998@griffin>, gdavis@griffin.uvm.edu (Gary Davis)
>>>>writes...
>>>>>
>>> 
>>>What do you mean by socialized medicine?  Do you have any evidence
>>>that physicians in Germany, Canada, France, Britain, etc. are mediocre?
>>> 
>>
>>Nope, but I've seen plenty of civil service workers.  In these 
>>systems everyone gets the same increases/benefits whether they 
>>perform an adequate job or an exceptional job.
>>
>>So after being in a system like this for awhile, the top 
>>performers figure out that its stupid to knock themselves silly 
>>to do a good job when they get paid as much to do an adequate 
>>job.
>>
>>I think this kind of system encourages mediocrity.
>
>You are confused about the nature of Canadian medicine.  In contrast to
>the English National Health system, Canadian doctors are _not_ civil
>servants.  They run private practices much like doctors in the U.S.
>
>The nationalized part of the Canadian system is health insurance:
>every citizen has basic insurance provided by the government, and can
>buy more.  All doctor's bills are submitted to the government, which
>pays what it covers, then sends the rest to the supplementary coverage
>firms or the patient.
>
>Mark
>-- 
>Mark A. Fulk			University of Rochester
>Computer Science Department	fulk@cs.rochester.edu


This is not exactly true.  It is *illegal* in Canada for a physician
to charge more than the government set fee scale.  Therefore patients
never pay anything for their health care (besides their taxes).
Because of this rule many of Canada's super-specialists who are world
renowned in their feilds are leaving to the United States.  Often this
is not necessarily for more money, but for much better research
funding which Canada is notoriously underfunding.
From: km@ky3b.pgh.pa.us (Ken Mitchum)
Newsgroups: sci.med
Subject: Re: New study on prostate cancer
Date: 12 Dec 92 15:30:59 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: KY3B - Vax Pittsburgh, PA

In article <1992Dec6.170359.12266@midway.uchicago.edu>, jacquier@gsbux1.uchicago.edu (Eric Jacquier ) writes:

|> Let's say that these tumors are not so micro. Now,
|> The question is, what do we mean by "dammned certain". Given the two 
|> probabilities of  
|> being rendered impotent and  incontinent, what probability
|> of dying within 2 years (given the age it may go fast or not)
|> would make us indifferent between sugery and no surgery 
|> 
|> Maybe women are more advanced than men on this issue. It seems that
|> the choice between losing their breast and dying has been made clear
|> to them. Or maybe they have not given the choice since it's largely
|> a world of men surgeons out there. 

You are making an enormously incorrect assumption, namely, that prostate
cancer and breast cancer are comparable. They are not. If breast cancer
had the same prognosis and mortality as prostate cancer does for the vast
majority of men who have it, we would have a much more relaxed attitude
towards breast cancer. The fact is that most men with prostate cancer
have it for many years, and die of something else. This is not true
for breast cancer. 

I am not sure of the meaning of your last sentence. Given your assumption
that prostate cancer and breast cancer are comparable, then are you
arguing that male physicians are more cavalier towards the survival of
their own gender? Or that attention to breast cancer is unnecessary?

 -ken
From: oispeggy@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (Peggy Brown)
Newsgroups: sci.med
Subject: Re: Physician's Incomes
Date: 17 Dec 92 17:05:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <1992Dec17.150150.21772@cs.rochester.edu>, fulk@cs.rochester.edu (Mark Fulk) writes...
>In article <BzDIG5.DKv@acsu.buffalo.edu> oispeggy@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (Peggy Brown) writes:
>>In article <92351.153826DGS4@psuvm.psu.edu>, DGS4@psuvm.psu.edu writes...
>>>In article <BzBHyG.4vJ@acsu.buffalo.edu>, oispeggy@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (Peggy
>>>Brown) says:
>>>>
>>>>In article <gdavis.724433998@griffin>, gdavis@griffin.uvm.edu (Gary Davis)
>>>>writes...
>>>>>
>>> 
>>>What do you mean by socialized medicine?  Do you have any evidence
>>>that physicians in Germany, Canada, France, Britain, etc. are mediocre?
>>> 
>>
>>Nope, but I've seen plenty of civil service workers.  In these 
>>systems everyone gets the same increases/benefits whether they 
>>perform an adequate job or an exceptional job.
>>
>>So after being in a system like this for awhile, the top 
>>performers figure out that its stupid to knock themselves silly 
>>to do a good job when they get paid as much to do an adequate 
>>job.
>>
>>I think this kind of system encourages mediocrity.
> 
>You are confused about the nature of Canadian medicine.  In contrast to
>the English National Health system, Canadian doctors are _not_ civil
>servants.  They run private practices much like doctors in the U.S.
> 
>The nationalized part of the Canadian system is health insurance:
>every citizen has basic insurance provided by the government, and can
>buy more.  All doctor's bills are submitted to the government, which
>pays what it covers, then sends the rest to the supplementary coverage
>firms or the patient.
> 
>Mark
>-- 
>Mark A. Fulk			University of Rochester
>Computer Science Department	fulk@cs.rochester.edu

Health insurance is a different issue entirely.  I do support 
a minimum level of health insurance for everyone.  I am not at 
all familiar with the Canadian system, but I would want to find
out what problems they have, before saying "let's do what they
do."

- Peggy -
From: cathye@cs.uq.oz.au (Cathy Ewald)
Newsgroups: sci.med
Subject: stroke victim and drowsiness
Keywords: stroke sleepyness
Date: 17 Dec 92 01:10:35 GMT
Reply-To: cathye@cs.uq.oz.au

My elderly grandmother had a bad stroke in August, and
one of the problems she suffers is that she is often very drowsy. 
She has been put on a drug called Ritalin (Methyl Phenidate HCL) for this.
She is on this for a trial period at this stage. 
I'm just after some general information on it. . 
In particular, what (if any) are the possible side effects and risks ?
What is it, and how does it work ?
Thanks,
Cathy
------------------
Cathy Ewald
Department of Computer Sciene
The University of Queensland
St . Lucia , Brisbane 
Q. 4072
Australia
email - cathye@cs.uq.oz.au


Newsgroups: sci.med
From: jimkent@well.sf.ca.us (Jim Kent)
Subject: Re: Peter Breggin, _Toxic Psychiatry_ (Q)
Organization: Whole Earth 'Lectronic Link
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 05:03:24 GMT


I wonder if the compiler expert has ever talked to anyone with severe
schizophrenia?
Newsgroups: sci.med
From: earl@well.sf.ca.us (Earl C. Vickers)
Subject: Re: FAQ (or can I) Drug data on the net
Organization: Whole Earth 'Lectronic Link
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 21:07:26 GMT


I don't know of any internet source of drug data (unless you count
telneting to compuserve), but Iquest has a database called
Drug Information Fulltext, which I think is basically the same as
the book _Drug Information_ by American Hospital Formulary Service.
Iquest is available via compuserve, and a search is usually around
$9. (Or you could just buy the book, for (I think) around $150.)
Newsgroups: sci.med
From: ritz@ldyday.enet.dec.com ()
Subject: AIDS at-risk areas in Africa
Reply-To: ritz@ldyday.enet.dec.com ()
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 15:00:39 GMT


I remember reading that the CDC had included origination from certain
areas in Africa as a high-risk factor for AIDS. Does anyone know which
areas? In particular, is Zimbabwe included?

Thanks,

 
John Ritz

ritz@ldyday.enet.dec.com
ritz@smaug.enet.dec.com

"Forward in all directions!"
		3Mustaphas3


Newsgroups: sci.med
From: jil@uts.uucp (Jamie Lubin)
Subject: Re: New Migraine Drug???
Organization: Bellcore, Piscataway, NJ
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 92 17:06:52 GMT

In article <17748@pitt.UUCP> geb@cs.pitt.edu (Gordon Banks) writes:
>In article <1992Dec5.031852.2655@cnsvax.uwec.edu> nyeda@cnsvax.uwec.edu (David Nye) writes:
>> 
>>As far as I am concerned, a more significant breakthrough in abortive
>>therapy for migraines is the availability of DHE-45 in an inhaler.  We
>>get this compounded by a pharmacy in Florida (Thayer's in Orlando).  It's
>>slick.  A tip of the hat to Gordon, who put me on to them.
>>-- 
>
>Sandoz tells me that they are soon going to have the DHE nasal spray
>also.  I suspect it will be as effective as Sumatriptin in most
>patients at only a fraction of the cost.

My girlfiend was looking forward to Sumatriptan's U.S. availability.  She'd
been on the DHE inhalers, but several months ago, Montefiore's Headache Clinic
in N.Y.C. put her on the DHE ampules/self-injections.  Any experiences with
those??
Newsgroups: sci.med
From: jfh@netcom.com (Jack Hamilton)
Subject: Re: Asthma Inhalers
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 20:51:31 GMT

In article <1992Dec12.111750.10337@visual.spk.wa.us> pwageman@visual.spk.wa.us (Peggy Wageman) writes:
>Could somebody explain to me the difference between an inhaler by the name
>of Maxair and an inhaler by the name of Ventolin?  Thanks,  Peggy Wageman

Ventolin is albuterol and Maxair is pirbuterol acetate.  They both perform the
same function in more or less the same way.  I haven't used Ventolin, but
I've used Proventil, another albuterol preparation. 

Of the two, I prefer Maxair because it makes me less jumpy and tastes
better, but you may reach a different conclusion.  I think choosing one
over the other is just a matter of personal preference for you and your
doctor. 

-- 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Jack Hamilton   jfh@netcom.com   P. O. Box 281107   SF, CA   94128-1107
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 15:40:21 EST
From: <DGS4@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: sci.med
Subject: Re: Physician's Incomes

In article <24418@alice.att.com>, ark@alice.att.com (Andrew Koenig) says:
>
>In article <gdavis.724433998@griffin> gdavis@griffin.uvm.edu (Gary Davis)
>writes:
>
>>  According to the December Scientific American,American physicians
>> are among the best paid in the world.
>> The lead article,which describes problems and policies concerning
>> the control of health-care costs,cites USA MDs making a 120,000
>> per year salary which equates to 5.1 times the salary of the average
>> professional wage.
>
>Two comments:
>
>        1. How much of that salary do they get to keep?  In this
>           country, physicians pay through the nose for malpractice
>           insurance; is that true elsewhere?

Even when you compare net incomes (I don't know is thei is what SA did)
U.S. physician incomes are substantially higher.

Even when you compare within specialties, U.S. physician incomes are
much higher.

>
>        2. $120K/year doesn't sound like all that much, considering
>           the amount of training required.  It's not far off what
>           airline pilots make, for example, or even good system
>           administrators on Wall Street.  (Seriously!)
>--
>                                --Andrew Koenig
>                                  ark@europa.att.com
Dennis G. Shea, Penn State
<<DISCLAIMER>>
Ain't nobody's bizness but my own. I'll be happy to accept all
the credit for anything I've written.  It's funny, however, how
employers only acknowledge the profitable ideas.
Newsgroups: sci.med