HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: rj@incam.new-orleans.la.us (Ray Jones)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,alt.activism,sci.skeptic,misc.headlines,alt.po
Subject: Re: guns and criminals
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 92 11:10:27 CDT
Distribution: world
Organization: Camelot BBS, New Orleans, LA

swells@triton.unm.edu (Earth-daughter) writes:

> In article <exukjb.58.713455643@exu.ericsson.se> exukjb@exu.ericsson.se (ken 
> 
> the only use for ti kwon leep is self defense. you know who said that?
> Ki Lo Ni, the Great Teacher.
> 
> oh, yeah?  well,
> >The best defense is a good offense;
> you know who said that?  Mel, the cook on "Alice!"
> 
> 
> shannon the mouthy pushy ranting broad channeling the Frantics.
> 
> >Kenny Bell                          *        Welcome to Mind Wars
> >Ericsson Network Systems, Inc       *        Abstract Arts BBS 386-7907
> >P.O. Box 833875                     *        Severity with oneself is herois
> >Richardson, TX 75083-3875           *        --A.G.Sertillanges (France, 194
> >----------------------------------------------------------------------------


When you reply to this message, how about NOT CROSS-POSTING to the
"alt.alien.visitors" newsgroup?  I am sure many of you have different
software, but I am sure most (if not all) software packages have the
ability to change the groups a message is posted to.  Try this:
"follow newsgroup1, newsgroup2, etc.".  That may not be the commands
you will have to use, but I am sure there is a like command.

Someone began cross-posting messages concerning gun control to the
alt.alien.visitors group and others simply reply to same without
changing any of the groups the messages are posted to.  I am guilty
of same.  Let's all try to be a little more considerate of others.

******************************************************************************
"Camelot" BBS		rj@incam.new-orleans.la.us
PRIVATE SYSTEM		
Fidonet address		ray.jones@p38.f17.n396.z1.fidonet.org
VOICE #			504-436-1826
From: mol@jyu.fi (Mika O. Latokartano)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Alien visitors?
Date: 19 Aug 92 06:54:48 GMT
Organization: University of Jyvaskyla, Finland

In article <1992Aug18.173030.6788@nntp.hut.fi> hpesonen@vipunen.hut.fi (Harri P Pesonen) writes:
>Hello, I subscribed to this newsgroup a couple of days ago, because
>I saw a fascinating (!) program about UFOs in our local telly.
>It was an american program which covered all usual (?) facts (:-))
>about extra terrestials, like Project Blue Book.
>

  I _think_ you must be joking.  But anyway:

  Yes, the American document was your standard UFO-"document" - a couple
  of more interesting points and one mildly interesting film
  clip, but the rest 98% was total publicity-seeking bs.

  Especially the Finnish UFO-"expert" interview session after the
  US-"document" was bs like you've never seen before.

  Or what do you say when one of the so-called experts read with
  a straight face and with utmost seriousness a letter from the public
  describing a meeting with an ETI, and the letter is
  signed by pseudonym "Arthur Dent"...

  Or when the same "expert" refers his "evidence" to the continuously
  on-going information exchange (regarding UFOs) via computers between 
  US and European universities...  I'd be willing to bet that
  the guy was refering to alt.alien.visitors and alt.conspiracy etc....

  I could go on and on, but you get the picture.

	- Mika

-- 
[  Mika O. Latokartano  Internet : mol@jyu.fi     mol@vipunen.hut.fi          ]
[  mol@puukko.hut.fi    Decnet : mol@jylk.decnet  Bitnet : mol@finjyu.bitnet  ]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
From: trondk_l@gribb.hsr.no (Lindanger, Trond K.    8-94)
Subject: Re: Ley Lines
Organization: Rogaland University Centre
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 10:50:35 GMT

In article <64201@cup.portal.com> John_-_Winston@cup.portal.com writes:
>From: John_-_Winston@cup.portal.com
>Subject: Re: Ley Lines
>Date: Mon, 17 Aug 92 21:05:34 PDT

>     Subject: Alien Races.
>             While reading the book called "UFO, From Venus I Came by
>     Omnec Once some statements were made about different
>     civilizations, races here on Earth and where these races
>     came from.
>             Here's a quote from her book, "I must advice you not
>     all UFOs that are seen  by people on earth are from our
>     Brotherhood of Planets, or even from our solar system.  Some 
>     are actually astral lights and interdimensional entities,
>     and some are unknown to us.  Some come from great distances.
>     The whole picture is very complex, but there have been a 
>     great number of landings and contacts by our people."
>             A black race evolved in the Jupiter system.  These are
>     the tall, royal looking people, with broad faces and square
>     jaws.  Their hair is deep glistening black and their eyes
>     are purple to violet.  The Jupiterians are also known for
>     their beautiful voices and open sharing nature of being.
>     Descendants are in Africa and other parts of the world.
>     (I've also found that a race of black people know a lot
>     about Sirius the dog star and speak of a double star that
>     rotates in a cycle of about 50 years.)
>             You might wonder how Omnec's life was here on Earth
>     after she came from Venus to live here. She didn't tell 
>     anyone that she was from Venus until she grew up.  In the 
>     Earth families  that raised her, her stepfathers were dire
>     punishment she had to learn to endure.  One raped her when
>     she was fourteen and the second at sixteen, while holding a 
>     loaded gun to her head.  She didn't feel too bold or heroic
>     in trying to resist because he had already shot her in the 
>     arm and she didn't feel it was time to die.
>             Omnec was also brought up in a very strict atmosphere
>     of a church where one of the young men rose to prominence,
>     Elvis Presley.
>             I'll leave you with this saying;  You can go through
>     more trials and tribulations on this Earth in one lifetime
>     than you can on a utopian type planet in 1,000 years.
>      
>        That's all for now, John F. Winston.

As reading your article I where wondering: How old are this book "UFO's from 
VENUS". I've also been reading books about civilizations on Venus, but these 
books are old. Much of this information has been uncovered as rubbish (e.g. 
Adamski). Why haven't cameras on space ships sent up to Venus been able to 
uncover civilizations if they exists?

     Your friend in Norway, Trond K. Lindanger
From: jmv@grip.cis.upenn.edu (Jean-Marc Vezien)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Saucer Crash Claims
Date: 20 Aug 92 23:15:21 GMT
Organization: GRASP Lab

In article <1992Aug20.204844.18038@cs.wisc.edu>, cherkaue@zomma.cs.wisc.edu (Kevin J. Cherkauer) writes:
> In article <86656@netnews.upenn.edu> jmv@grip.cis.upenn.edu (Jean-Marc Vezien) writes:
> >Claims of UFO crashes only come from
> >the US. In Europe, UFO crashes just don't occur. So either
> >the Aliens just love to crash in America, or ...
> 
>   Actually, I have read claims of crashes in Sweden, Poland, Brazil, and
> Russia, to name a few, and I'm not even a UFO expert.
>   It must be nice to live in a world of your own construction, but don't try
> to make the rest of us live in it too.
> 
> -- 
> Kevin Cherkauer
> cherkaue@cs.wisc.edu
> 
> Disclaimer: The above opinions are solely the responsibility of my owners.


I must apologize for my imprecise terms. First, I was talking about
about what I know, i.e. Western Europe (European Community that is,
plus Switzerland), second, anybody can claim he saw a UFO crashing five minutes
ago. I was speaking about substanciated claims. In France, the last
case I heard of was a so called UFO crashed nearby a highway...
which happened to be a giant disco sphere (you know the ones
tessalated with mirrors hanging from the ceiling of discotheques)
dropped here after a truck accident.

Again, I will accept with pleasure any reference about a UFO
crash in which something else than two witnesses and a vague
hole on the ground were found by investigators.

>   It must be nice to live in a world of your own construction, but don't try
> to make the rest of us live in it too.

That was never my intention. As for the world of my construction, in what other world
I am supposed to live ? But that's another discussion. Let's look at facts, ok ?

JM.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
From: nelson_p@apollo.hp.com (Peter Nelson)
Subject: Re: physical evidence
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 13:04:26 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Corporation, Chelmsford, MA

In article <3283@bcstec.ca.boeing.com> kuryakin@bcstec.ca.boeing.com (Rick Pavek) writes:
>In article <BsvL27.1AJ@apollo.hp.com> nelson_p@apollo.hp.com (Peter Nelson) writes:
>>   events in it.  Turn on a videotape loop every night before going
>>   to bed.  Maybe prepare the ground outside to mark footprints.
>>   Set up automatic video or camera equipment around the house 
>>   to record people (beings, whatever) going in and out.  Et cetera.
>
>
>It's been done.  There are recordings of a subject sleepwalking while
>she turns the camera off.  Supposedly the beings remained off-camera until
>this happened.
>
>Now part of the claims of the abductees is that there seems to be a form
>of telepathy involved.  If that's the case (What? Now I have to prove
>Telepathy, Too??) then you'll not only have to put a camera on the 
>victim and their residence, but you'll also have to do it without
>the victim's knowledge.

  Or just have it set on some kind of timer so it can't be turned off.
  Besides if the aliens had this kind of power why don't they just
  use their telepathic powers to prevent us from talking about it or
  to prevent hypnotists from "regressing" these people, or whatever? 

  Why not set up a video system with a telephoto and image intensifier 
  on an adjacent piece of property to record UFOs or the "abductee"
  being taken out of the house?  If my next door neighbor claimed
  frequent abductions I'd happily allow such a system in my house
  and I *never* sleepwalk.  

  You know and I know that all you can offer are VERY weak excuses
  for why there's no decent evidence of abductions.  

>someone watching from nearby, with the knowledge the events are taped.
>You might put someone nearby, and put them on camera, too, without
>their knowledge.  If they know about it, they can think about it, and
>if Telepathy is associated with this, then the abductors will know 
>about it.
>
>Of course, they might have some means to scan for electrical activity
>nearby... 

  So what?   So then they don't do the abductions?   At least this
  way the "abductees"  can get a decent night's sleep without having
  to worry about waking up with some alien souvenirs stuck up
  their nose and more expensive hypnotist's bills to find out 
  how it got there!   8-)



---peter



Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
From: hal@HQ.Ileaf.COM (Hal Wadleigh)
Subject: Centrifugal force (was Re: Ley Lines)
Reply-To: hal@HQ.Ileaf.COM (Hal Wadleigh)
Organization: Interleaf, Inc.
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 92 15:09:12 GMT

Sounds like the great debate between artillerymen and astronomers about the
path of objects.  The artilleryman says they follow parabolas.  The astronomer
says they follow ellipses.  The difference is that the artilleryman treats the
world as flat.  Viewed from the perspective of a spherical planet, those
paths are ellipses.  The parabolic stuff is the result of changing the surface
reference from a sphere to a plane (and it also simplifies the math).

Centrifugal force is quite real to the person in the centrifuge.  It's only the
fellow standing on the outside who keeps saying that it's really only inertia,
and not a force at all.  It all depends on your frame of reference.

What planet do YOU live on?

Xref: sparky alt.alien.visitors:5812 alt.conspiracy:10093 alt.activism:14994 sci.skeptic:14526 misc.headlines:5692 alt.politics.bush:1940
From: lindq@etek.chalmers.se (Johan Lindqvist)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,alt.activism,sci.skeptic,misc.headlines,alt.politics.bush
Subject: Re: Guns and Skeptics
Date: 18 Aug 92 11:35:47 GMT
Reply-To: lindq@etek.chalmers.se (Johan Lindqvist)
Organization: Chalmers University of Technology, Gothenburg, SWEDEN

In article <exukjb.82.714078009@exu.ericsson.se>, exukjb@exu.ericsson.se (ken bell) writes:
|> In article <BsGCJq.CwB@newcastle.ac.uk> w.p.coyne@newcastle.ac.uk writes:
|> >Then why do most wealthy countries EXCEPT the USA get by without
|> >massive gun ownership AND lower crime rates than the US.  Are
|> >you claiming that if the UK was to allow everyone to own guns
|> >that crime would not increase as a result of this,   as criminals
|> >used guns to commit more robberies etc.
|> 
|> Probably because their penal systems are better than ours.

Well, first of all, who is 'we' ?   ("....better than ours.")
Swedish? (Since you post from Sweden.)

And what do you mean? What penal system is better than wich, and why?

______________________________________________________________________________
Johan Lindqvist                     |Due to lack of interest, tomorrow
Gothenburg         Mail:            |has been cancelled.
Sweden      lindq@etek.chalmers.se  |
______________________________________________________________________________
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
From: payner@netcom.com (Rich Payne)
Subject: Anonymous posting to a.a.v.???
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 92 14:02:04 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)

I don't believe it, the first anonymous post to a.a.v., at least that
I have noticed.

>alt.alien.visitors #8781 (5 more)                    |-(1)+-(1)
>From: D. Lurker                                      |    \-(1)--(1)--(1)--(1)-
>[2] Re: Ley Lines and an open letter to John         |-(1)+-(1)--[2]
>+   Winston                                          |    |-(1)--(1)
>Date: Fri Aug 21 14:30:17 PDT 1992                   |    |-(1)
>Organization: Pick a 3 letter agency, any 3          |    \-(1)
>+             letter agency
>Lines: 10
>NNTP-Posting-Host: framemaker.ebay.sun.com

Of course, without even digging, that "framemaker.ebay.sun.com" is 
a bit of a giveaway. :^)


Rich

payner@netcom.com


Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
From: kring@efes.physik.uni-kl.de (Thomas Kettenring)
Subject: Rick Pavek Needs a Flame (was: Crop Circles?)
Organization: FB Physik, Universitaet Kaiserslautern, Germany
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 15:55:38 GMT

After stuffing my newsreader with dozens of articles containing things like
"Can you prove that the ALL of the circles WERE created by humankind?"
"Prove to me that any of the crop circles were created by humans."
"Do you have any 'proof' that the circles were created by humankind?",
Rick Pavek tops himself with:

>In article <1992Aug15.094751.1942@cco.caltech.edu>keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider) writes:
>>
>Rick Pavek (me) said:
>>>I say "Prove it".
>>
>Then Keith said:
>>You can't "prove" that.  You can prove that an individual circle was created
>>by humans, but you can't with one sweep prove that every circle was create
>>by humans.  You are looking for a proof that does not exist.
>>
>>keith
>
>YES, YES, YES.  You've GOT IT!!!  BY GOLLY, YOU'VE GOT IT!!  THAT'S THE
>POINT!!  GIVE THAT MAN A CEEGAR!!  THA WINNA!!
>
>BINGO!
>
>Thanks Keith, we agree with each other.
>
>My point exactly.  And the corollary: You can't with one sweep 
>(and one example) prove that because one was created by man, they ALL
>were created by man.

Every person with half a brain can see that you can't prove that!  Did you
really think you were the only one who *has* half a brain?  There's no need
for your rhetorical questions, thank you!  Especially not if you ask it
over and over again.

But you draw the wrong consequence.  When it is impossible to prove a thing,
while it IS possible to prove the opposite, the only sensible approach is to
*assume* (not conclude) the thing is correct and wait until the opposite is
proven.  Of course you can jump in a circle on one foot, cry "Prove it!
Prove it!" and remain in the "I don't know.  I wait for proof" region.
Look at this:

	  All circles made by men:	  Some not made by men:

Occam:	Assumes all circles are made	Perhaps some day it is proven.	
	by men, waits until the		Occam changes position then.
	opposite is proven.  Opposite	Is right from then on, but was
	is never proven because it's	wrong before (with a mere
	wrong, so Occam is right the	assumption, and a plausible
	whole time.			one at that, so it doesn't hurt
					much)

Pavek:	Doesn't know and never will	When it is proven, accepts
	have a clue.  Jumps around in	the explanation.  Is right
	circle crying "Prove it, prove	from then on, but had no clue
	it" till end of life.		before.

Thus you avoided being wrong.  Fine.  But you also avoided being right.
I don't see any superiority of your position but only an inferiority of
your arguments.
I will assume now that you have *exactly* half a brain, as you have done
nothing yet to prove you have more.


-- 
--------------thomas kettenring, 2 dan, kaiserslautern, germany---------------
Definition:  Idiot-proof  -  you are idiot-proof when you NEVER flame anybody.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
From: jeffp@netcom.com (Jeff Papineau)
Subject: Re: Mysterious Happening
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 92 19:03:56 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 
Keywords: military helicopters lights

>
>
>What clinical setting?  Hopkins is far from professional in his
>practices, and as I understand it he uses his studio for these
>sessions.
>
>Aimee

These uniformed comments just get so old after a while. We have a plethora of
other clinicians involved in the study of abduction now, besides the much
derided Hopkins and Strieber... Dr. John Mack of Harvard ring a bell? Secret Life ring a bell? David pritchard? And hundreds less well known. When are people
going to face the fact that the VAST testimony of thousands of people can not
be dismissed with the blanket statement "Where's the evidence?~ If you took this
one to a court of law, the preponderance of testimony would be enough to make
a ruling...
So for goodness sake, can't we all become a little better informed around here?
Jeff-
From: D. Lurker
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Ley Lines and an open letter to John Winston
Date: 21 Aug 92 21:30:17 GMT
Reply-To: noone@all
Organization: Pick a 3 letter agency, any 3 letter agency
NNTP-Posting-Host: framemaker.ebay.sun.com


	Sorry to bother you all.  I've been reading this group for a while now and have noticed that there are a few posters, I won't mention any names, ahem, John Winston, ahem, that must have just gotten off the great space ark.  
	It is one thing to believe that there may be intelligent life somewhere in the universe, but really, to infer that the Sun is a planet and the radiation given off is caused by the flatulence of some all-powerful cosmic slug interacting with an atmosphere???  
	John, it works something like this.  In the real world, most people have unusual beliefs, thoughts and ideas.  It's good to talk about them, but you need to find the proper audience. I'm sure there are any number of psychiatrists that would delight in speaking with you on a long term basis, under restrain most likely.
	Please don't take this personally, I enjoy thought provoking material, but having to wade through page after page of material that the National Enquirer probably wouldn't print is getting to be too much.  Thank you and good night.




	
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
From: jeffp@netcom.com (Jeff Papineau)
Subject: Re: Whitley Strieber
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 92 00:27:21 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 

>
>Overall, Whitley sounds like a modern rehash of the 1950's "contactees" --
>people who made wild (obviously false) claims of contact with aliens and tended
>to glamorize them ala Whitley. "The aliens are here to save us from ourselves,
>and I am their spokesperson" type stuff. So it's not even a new idea --
>Strieber just had to wait 30 years for people to forget George Adamski et al
>and then tell the same old stories again. Voila -- millions of copies sold.
>
>If he isn't making it all up consciously, then his subconscious mind probably
>is. Either way, I don't buy it.
>
>For a much more credible abduction story, try reading _The Interrupted Journey_
>by John G. Fuller (about Barny and Betty Hill). Their story at least has none
>Kevin Cherkauer
>cherkaue@cs.wisc.edu

Well, I'm impressed. You've actually read a UFO book. That makes you more
serious than most people commenting in this group.

Actually, there are hundreds of known contactees, and thousands of known 
abductees. Generally, we are dealing with different alien races that
do the contacts vs. the abductions.

Most abductees never talk about their experiences because people like you
call those experiences "obviously false" just because they took a ride
in the saucer, or claimed benevolent messages. Of the hundreds of known
cases, contactees generally have similar experiences, and this can be 
correlated to abductees, whom generally have similar experiences as well.

I found it interesting that in the US, aerospace workers are a favorite
target of benevolent space brothers. (Sources: To the Men of Earth, and
The Promise. ) 

I have been to symposiums that had several contactees in attendence, and
I am here to tell you that they are not a product of any particualr decade,
they are not crazy, and they sincerely believe in their experiences and the
messages given them to relate to others. Most have never sought to attract
attention to themselves, let alone written a book about the experience,
and many will not step forward for the betterment of man-kind because
of PEOPLE LIKE YOU.

Peace,

Jeff-
From: 9051467f@levels.unisa.edu.au
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Greetings, O Earthlings
Date: 21 Aug 92 07:39:07 GMT
Organization: University of South Australia

Hello fellow Earth residents and visitors, again.
<vital stats down the bottom>               
Read 'So Much Romanticism. Cleaned up version' for my position on aliens.

Now I know that the conversation on crop circles is genuine proposition,
but there are a few topics I'm not so sure about.
Things like INVASION (the one about the guy enrolled in Florida State Uni)
are [IMO] just creations, but are people really serious about Greys,
Pleaidians[sp?], Sirians etc? I had heard about Greys long before
I started reading this news group.
Either way, could someone give me a general rundown of the current 'in'
topics?

Would appreciate it. Post it to news rather that direct email.

I apologise for me getting carried away the other night (READ ME etc).
Jeff P.'s reply to 'So much roman..'  kinda went to the head. It wont
happen again.


-- 
John McVey, Whyalla campus, Uni S.Australia
Enic Eng Student & Terror Tekkie G1 (at 19!)
9051467f@levels.unisa.edu.au, or try
9051467f@wh.whyalla.unisa.edu.au

Those who believe in an afterlife will not be dissappointed.
				--me.
'An idea isn't responsible for those who believe in it.'
   				--Don Marquis
'Mirror Mirror, got my fate lying in your hands'
				--Def Leppard
Xref: sparky alt.alien.visitors:5741 alt.conspiracy:10023