From: todd@reed.edu (Todd Ellner)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Thai kickboxing
Date: 29 Dec 92 19:49:31 GMT
Article-I.D.: reed.1992Dec29.194931.3472
Organization: Reed College, Portland, Oregon

In article <1992Dec27.035210.23364@microsoft.com> bobsarv@microsoft.com (Bob Sarver) writes:
[Friend suggests  muay thai as just the baddest, nastiest martial art
on the face of the civilized Earth and parts of West Texas]

>1.  Is this true, or is it just the conceit that each discipline seems to
>have for itself?  I haven't been to any tournaments where thai kickboxing
>was featured, so I can't say for sure.
>2.  If it is true, then why does anyone else bother to study other
>disciplines?  I mean, what is the point?
>3.  Does it operate on the poomseh/kata training principle, or is thai
>kickboxing more like american judo, where there is less emphasis on the
>traditional forms?

I am not a great Thai boxer, just an enthusiastic student. I have studied
other arts, though, so I have some basis for comparison.

Muay Thai is a very worthwhile art to study. The physical conditioning you get
is second to none and equalled by few. There are not many techniques, but they
are very street effective, fast, powerful, and simple. Muay Thai also has a
steep learning curve; you can pick up the fundamentals  quickly and get some
self-defense skills in a relatively short time [my wife may be teaching a 
self-defense course  soon and plans to make Muay Thai training the core of the
curriculum]. Of course you then spend the rest of your life perfecting what
you learned in the first year.

Muay Thai training methods develop several important attributes effectively.
Much of the training centers around the Thai pads, heavy bags/pads strapped
onto the forearms of your training partner. You punch, kick, knee, and elbow
the pads in response to and while defending yourself from your partner. I have
found that the training keeps me on my toes, develops stamina and the ability
to hit hard in a dynamic fashion, more like a fight than other training
methods I have encountered. I have also found that the things I hit with
(knees, elbows, shins, hands) have gotten good conditioning without being 
damaged like they were by the makiwara, and my ability to fight aggressively
has improved markedly.

Forms, to the best of my knowledge, are not part of Thai boxing training.
Combinations, yes. Hours practicing the combinations, yes. Kata-like forms,
no. This is not just American laziness. Thais in Thailand practice much the
same way.

I have gone on for some time about the virtues of Muay Thai _training_ and
have said very little about the _sparring_. That is because there is very
little (or no) sparring unless  you actually get into the ring. The primary
weapons, knees, elbows, and that god-awful Thai round kick are impossible to
spar safely, and students who spar get badly hurt. If you do get into the
ring professionally, then I don't know what to tell you. It's a nasty place,
and a few dozen boxers get killed every year in Thailand (usually due to
internal bleeding from the knee and elbow). I have a quota of brain cells I'm
willing to lose and plan to lose most of them to alchohol, so no professional
fights for me, thanks.

Other respondents have said that Thai boxing is crude and primitive and that
you can only practice it until you are about 25. With all due respect, I must
say that they are full of little round things like goats leave. There are very
few techniques in Muay Thai, but the ways they can be strung together are
infinite and very sophisticated, and you can, as I said before, spend a 
lifetime perfecting what you learn. You can also continue training for
decades. Master Chai has at least one student in her late sixties. Again, if
you are crazy enough to step fight professionally your body will get use up
pretty quickly, say two or three years, but if it is the training you want
you can do that for as long as you want. 

One writer mentions Benny Urquidez and says that Mr. Urquidez has won a lot
of fights against Thai boxers. True enough, but Mr. Urquidez is a superior
fighter by any measure. He could probably beat almost anyone in a fight. It
does not mean that other arts are no good.

-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Todd Ellner  todd@reed.edu 
"What has the study of biology taught you about the Creator Dr. Haldane?"
JBS Haldane:"I'm not sure, but He seems to be inordinately fond of beetles."
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts