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  From: SF-LOVERS-MISC@rutgers.edu
  Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V17 #686
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  Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V17 #686
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  SF-LOVERS Digest           Tuesday, 22 Dec 1992       Volume 17 : Issue 686
  
  Today's Topics:
  
  		   Miscellaneous - Conventions (5 msgs)
  
  ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
  
  Date: 14 Dec 92 05:55:03 GMT
  From: mwallis@lunacity.com (Michael Wallis)
  Reply-to: sf-lovers-misc@Rutgers.Edu
  Subject: Re: Boskone Art Show (was Re: Hello Confrancisco?)
  
  ecl@cbnewsj.cb.att.com (Evelyn C. Leeper) writes:
  > Unless you're willing to volunteer to serve on Boskone's art show staff,
  > this is basically saying, "I want you to assign people to do work because
  > *I* want it done."  (And you're not even going to be attending!)  Sorry,
  > life (and cons) don't work that way.
  
  While I've been to many Boskones, I'll admit the number is 0 since moving
  to California. I HAVE helped with art show set up and tear down at most of
  the Bay Area conventions I've been to. (Even when I was Sr Staff of other
  areas.) My point to Jim was that other art shows seem to be able to recruit
  enough help to handle this; what's the problem? Life and cons, outside
  Boston at least, seem to work that way. And yes, If I'm at a Boskone early
  or staying over, I will come and lend a hand with Art Show now that I'm
  aware they need help.
  
  > If you don't like the way Boskones are run, you can suggest changes, but
  > basically you have two choices: volunteer to do some of the work to make
  > your changes happen, or don't attend Boskones.
  
  I was not speaking to Jim in the manner of "You should change Boskone
  because it's wrong". I (had thought) we were discussing Jim's contention
  that mail-in art was too much of a problem to handle and should be actively
  discouraged from worldcons and large regionals. This all grew out of an
  artist's post re: ConFrancisco.
  
  > Boskone is not evil because they don't do everything for everyone -
  > they're realistic as to what they can and can't do.  Better they do what
  > they do well than they overextend themselves and end up pleasing no one.
  
  None of this is "evil". This all relates to Jim's posted contention that
  Art Shows don't have enough staff to handle mail-in art work and therefore
  committees, especially worldcons, should discourage it. I tried to point
  out that this was not the case in my experience, and that such arbitrary
  imposition was not required if things were organized better. It degenerated
  from there, unfortunately.
  
  Having just watched a very capable art show director be removed by various
  East Coast elements because she was deemed not "experienced" enough to
  handle a worldcon art show; and then to see Jim posting that because major
  East Coast cons couldn't handle mail-in art, that worldcons should
  discourage it, just pushed a few too many buttons. Shawn has proven
  repeatedly that she CAN handle large art shows, and without this whining
  about lack of staff and too much extra work and suddenly appearing problems
  like insurance that have, from my experience, never been a problem at
  conventions I've been to (and I've been to well over 100).
  
  I just don't see what is so all fired difficult if the rest of the country
  can manage it just fine, nor why people have been agitating for the removal
  of a perfectly capable individual who CAN handle the very things we're
  discussing.
  
  If Boskone wants to run things their way, that's fine. When Boskone starts
  telling everone that they have to change because there's a problem, when in
  fact there is not, THEN I have a problem.
  
  Michael Wallis
  mwallis@lunacity.com
  
  ------------------------------
  
  Date: 14 Dec 92 16:55:28 GMT
  From: rcampb@cac.washington.edu (Russ Campbell )
  Reply-to: sf-lovers-misc@Rutgers.Edu
  Subject: Re: Hello Confrancisco?
  
  mwallis@lunacity.com (Michael Wallis) writes:
  > In almost 20 years that I've been attending cons, I haven't seen that at
  > all. In fact, most artists who can DO try to attend the shows. Having
  > stuff in the art show is not the sole reason they attend. They attend for
  > the same reasons anyone else does. They get to hang out with friends and
  > colleagues they may not ordinarily have the chance to, they get to go the
  > the parties and have fun, they get to see the other artwork and discuss
  > style and structure and colours and techniques. They sometimes get to be
  > on panels and espouse their view on things. In short, they come to be
  > PART of the convention. If they like a convention but can't make it,
  > they'll certainly send art, but if they can, they usually try to attend
  > too.
  
  Thanks, Michael.  That was better stated than I could've done.  I have to
  echo the sentiment expressed in the above inclusion.  I and the artists
  that I generally "hang out" with do exactly that - we'll attend as many
  cons as financially feasible.  One point to note is that MOST of the
  artists whose work you ever see displayed do not make a profit at the shows
  they attend due to the expense of attending a show.  The ones that do are
  the ones that make cheap laserprints and sell 40 of them at a show for $20
  each.  MY OPINION is that such prints do not constitute artwork.  I have
  come to that opinion through the coaching of several professional artists
  who do make their living off their art.  Generally, though, when attending
  a con where we're displaying, the best most of us hope for is to break even
  for the weekend.  A serious fight over a piece in the auction or the sale
  of an original at something like what it's worth (i.e. more than $5.00 per
  hour spent, which doesn't pay the bills) is greeted with much joy and
  graciousness and the knowledge that at least one (or a few) of us will be
  going home with a profit without having resorted to the "flood the show
  with many cheap pieces" ploy.  Not that I'm saying the pieces depicted in
  such a way are not good, mind you, I just think it hurts the field of
  speculative fiction art in the long term.
  
  > Same thing. I have x number of panels. I mail to the artist and say " the
  > line forms to the right." If I get more reservations for space than I can
  > accommodate, I write these artists and let them know the show has filled
  > up and that they are on the waiting list. As the show approaches, I keep
  > the list up to date as some artists cancel. Anyone who hasn't confirmed
  > for and prepaid for their space, or who hasn't assured that they will be
  > there, is contacted. Any available last minute space is distributed to
  > the top waitlisters. At con, you make do with the situation that arises.
  > It really isn't that difficult.
  
  One additional thing that Durlyn and I do is notify the artists in the
  letter we send out to solicit reservations that the reservation is not
  secure without payment.  Those that arrive without payment can be
  overridden as soon as all spaces have been reserved if someone else then
  sends in a paid reservation.  In this case I suppose I should change the
  saying to "First Come, First Paid, First Served".
  
  Russell D. Campbell
  rcampb@u.washington.edu
  
  ------------------------------
  
  Date: 14 Dec 92 17:25:47 GMT
  From: rcampb@cac.washington.edu (Russ Campbell )
  Reply-to: sf-lovers-misc@Rutgers.Edu
  Subject: Re: Boskone Art Show (was Re: Hello Confrancisco?)
  
  mwallis@lunacity.com (Michael Wallis) writes:
  > ecl@cbnewsj.cb.att.com (Evelyn C. Leeper) writes:
  >> Unless you're willing to volunteer to serve on Boskone's art show staff,
  >> this is basically saying, "I want you to assign people to do work
  >> because *I* want it done."  (And you're not even going to be attending!)
  >> Sorry, life (and cons) don't work that way.
  > 
  > While I've been to many Boskones, I'll admit the number is 0 since moving
  
  I haven't been to one, yet, but from the attitude I smell in a post more
  reactionary than contributory to discussion I'd have to say if I do I sure
  as hell won't continue my practice of arriving at the art show hours early
  to help, taking time out later to set up my own work, and then volunteering
  more time when I do get to one.  At this point I may still choose to mail
  in, despite the discouragement, just to take up space.  As I said in a
  previous post, most artists do not make a profit on the shows they actually
  attend, thus mail in is a good means to boost the bottom line as it costs
  substantially less to mail than to attend.  I'll re-iterate the statement
  both Michael and I have made - we're not going to agree on the mail in
  topic so let's all just agree to disagree.  The reason for my original post
  was fear, caused by Shawn's being asked to leave, that a west coast
  convention, worldcon or otherwise, would lose its west coast flavor and
  suffer as a result.  The two coasts have a different philosophy and
  mentality and that's not going to change.  I have a lot of confidence in
  Shawn and hope she will continue her successes running the other large
  shows in the bay area that she's involved wiht.  As an artist I had every
  confidence she could handle running a show for a world con.  Now I suppose
  I'm to have to deal with someone I've likely never heard of nor will ever
  again have to deal with at a con on left coast.
  
  > I was not speaking to Jim in the manner of "You should change Boskone
  > because it's wrong". I (had thought) we were discussing Jim's contention
  > that mail-in art was too much of a problem to handle and should be
  > actively discouraged from worldcons and large regionals. This all grew
  > out of an artist's post re: ConFrancisco.
  
  That was me.  One thing I'm wondering now, after pondering this discussion
  over the weekend is: what the hell are the attending artists doing?  For
  Dreamcon, and indeed most of the cons I've been to in my region, a good
  number of the attending artists volunteer time during the weekend to help
  with set-up, hanging mail in, and tear down.  Where panels are not
  pre-assigned the advantage is you arrive early and pick a good space.
  Where panels are assigned you get there early enough to ask for a change if
  you're not happy with the arrangement.  I've never been turned down asking
  for my panel assignment to be changed.  The point here is that a good
  number of the art show volunteers where I've attended the con have been
  attending artists.  Perhaps this is not something that happens at Boskone?
  If not, then I suggest trying to find some incentive for attending artists
  to get there early and help.  It's in their best interests to help insure a
  smoothly run show.
  
  Russ
  
  ------------------------------
  
  Date: 14 Dec 92 23:15:50 GMT
  From: janiceg@marvin.eng.sun.com (Janice Gelb)
  Reply-to: sf-lovers-misc@Rutgers.Edu
  Subject: Re: Boskone Art Show (was Re: Hello Confran
  
  mwallis@lunacity.com (Michael Wallis) writes:
  > I was not speaking to Jim in the manner of "You should change Boskone
  > because it's wrong". I (had thought) we were discussing Jim's contention
  > that mail-in art was too much of a problem to handle and should be
  > actively discouraged from worldcons and large regionals.
  [deleted]
  
  > Having just watched a very capable art show director be removed by
  > various East Coast elements because she was deemed not "experienced"
  > enough to handle a worldcon art show; and then to see Jim posting that
  > because major East Coast cons couldn't handle mail-in art, that worldcons
  > should discourage it, just pushed a few too many buttons.
  > 
  > If Boskone wants to run things their way, that's fine. When Boskone
  > starts telling everone that they have to change because there's a
  > problem, when in fact there is not, THEN I have a problem.
  
  I didn't see where Jim (who I gather is now the personification of Boskone?
  :-> ) was telling everyone else that they have to change - he had stated
  that mail-ins are discouraged for various reasons and then explained why,
  as the excerpted posts below show. You are posting your opinion of what
  major con art shows can handle, and he is posting his.  I think you're
  confusing the people who have been involved with the ConFrancisco art show
  with someone on the net who is expressing his opinion on a topic.
  
  jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com (Jim Mann) writes:
  >>  But there are good reasons for discouraging mail-ins (or, put another
  >>  way, giving preference to artists who can be there to hang up their own
  >>  work).
  >>  
  >>  [deletions]
  >> 
  >> The problem is: at the critical time, we don't have the people to do the
  >> work.  Precon, the Art Show staff is too busy to hang up lots of mail-in
  >> art. Post con, there is tear down and lots of bookkeeping to do.
  >> 
  >> By the way, I do somewhat agree with you for small shows, that don't
  >> fill up, and where we are talking about a half dozen packages of mail-in
  >> art. But for big shows, where the show does fill up and have a waiting
  >> list, and where the number of mail-ins, if we allowed it, could be 40 or
  >> 50, this just isn't feasible.
  
  Janice Gelb
  janiceg@marvin.eng.sun.com
  
  ------------------------------
  
  Date: 15 Dec 92 15:12:31 GMT
  From: jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com (Jim Mann)
  Reply-to: sf-lovers-misc@Rutgers.Edu
  Subject: Re: Art Shows (was Re: Hello Confrancisco?)
  
  mwallis@lunacity.com (Michael Wallis) writes:
  > jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com (Jim Mann) writes:
  >> This can perhaps work in an Art Show of 40 artists. It would be a
  >> nightmare at a Worldcon, we're you're talking hundreds of artists.
  > 
  > Not if properly organized. It would be a challange, but what it will be
  > is a reflection of the staff.
  
  I never said it could not be done. But it is a challenge, and adds more
  work to an already overworked Art Show staff.
  
  >> Mail-ins are also trickier than you imply.  How do you handle insurance
  >> on them, for example.
  > 
  > Insurance intransit is the artist responsibility. Insurance on site (or
  > prior to con, at office) should be covered by the conventions policy.
  > Where's the problem?
  
  The problem is in the way things really work. The stated policy at many Art
  Shows these days is that we don't do insurance, and aren't responsible for
  many kinds of problems. However, in practice, most conventions that say
  such things still take responsibility for any problems they themselves
  cause.  If a clumsy staff member destroys a piece of art, the Art Show
  picks up the tab.
  
  >> I wouldn't want to have a box of Michael Whelan's art sitting in my
  >> living room unless it were insured.  How is it delivered?  Does someone
  >> have to take time off work to wait for the delivery person to arrive?
  >> And then it has to be transported to the convention.
  > 
  > Oh come now. Are you saying that you've never figured ANY of these out?
  
  Of course we've figured them out.  I could, for example, take a day off
  work and have everything delivered to me.  But I have limited vacation
  time, and would rather NOT take time off work to do this.  To get things to
  the con, we could have the truck stop by my house on the way.  But
  Logistics already has lots of work to do precon. Adding a long side trip to
  their work is not a good thing.
  
  > And you're worried about insurance while the art sits at the con office?
  > Jim, most art shows I've seen have a very simple rule. Pay for it, then
  > get it. What's to stop someone from walking off? What extra security is
  > required because you've got live pickup with no access or crowd control?
  > Ghod! What a NIGHTMARE.
  
  What do you mean by no security?  We have the same door security during
  sales as during any other open time of the Art Show. The only difference is
  that during sales there is a special sales exit, where folks go through a
  sales line, get a receipt, and have to show that receipt to the door guards
  on the way out to make sure that they paid for what they have.  No
  nightmare at all.  In fact, it's a lot easier than the alternatives I've
  seen.
  
  To the best of my knowledge, the Art Shows that have employed this method
  (most of the East Coast regionals, Noreascon, Magicon, the Austin Nasfic)
  have not lost any art work this way.
  
  > Hmmm ... if that's how you run art shows, no wonder you think of them as
  > nightmares. Maybe you should take a break and let someonw else run it for
  > a while?
  
  I'm not sure what you are referring to there.
  
  > Ah ... therein lies your problem. Stop with the extra worrying and do
  > some logistics planning instead. Things like insurance aren't bigger
  > problems because there's more mail in art. It's the same problem. It's
  > handled in the same way. It's what the convention buys insurance for. And
  > if you KNOW (and you'd better) that the art that was mailed in won't fit
  > in the back of a car, you PLAN on making two trips or on scheduling a run
  > with the Con's van. What's the problem?
  
  Again, you miss the point.  Of course I can plan to make two or three trips
  instead of one.  But that's a lot of extra work.  There is already lots to
  do in the day or two before the convention and the day or two after: why
  add more to it?
  
  >> Another way to look at this is from a cost point of view: we charge per
  >> panel (no commission) at Boskone (and also did so at Noreascon).
  > 
  > So maybe it's time to rethink the policy. A 10% commission is both common
  > and reasonable. What's the problem?
  
  Why?  In any case, that doesn't solve the problem that mail-in art, if
  costs were apportioned correctly, is a lot more expensive for us to handle
  than art the artists bring in themselves.
  
  Jim Mann            
  Stratus Computer
  jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com  
  
  ------------------------------
  
  End of SF-LOVERS Digest
  ***********************
  

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