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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Sat, 11 Apr 1992 00:18:00 EDT
From:         Jeff Shirton <SHIRTON@MCMASTER.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Revision of the Book of Mormon

Doug,

> The Mormon Church has the original manuscript, not merely the English
> translation.  It's kept at Church headquarters in Salt Lake City, Utah.
> Joseph Smith didn't claim the book was perfect, only that it was "the most
> correct of any book on earth."

Now you've got _me_ confused.  Isn't the "original manuscript" the original
English translation?  Or are you referring to the original plates?  Wasn't
the only translation the one done from the plates (in whatever language)
to the manuscript (in English)?

My understanding is that the original plates are no longer available.  Is
this correct?

> Actually, the Book of Mormon has been very well preserved, unlike the
> Bible which lacks the original manuscripts to compare to.

Please correct me if I'm wrong about the lack of existence of the plates,
but if this is true, then the original "autograph" is not available any
more than the original autographs of the Biblical Scriptures are available.

>  The Bible, by contrast, has been through many re-translations without
> the benefit of any original source documents.

Sorry, my friend, but wrong, wrong, and wrong!  All scholarly translations
are _direct_ translations of the original languages, either from Hebrew
to English, or from Greek to English.  (There is also a two-step translation
inherent in the LXX, from Hebrew to Greek, and then into English, but this is
just a confirmation of the translations directly from Hebrew to English.)

There are no (I repeat, no) "re"-translations of the Bible.

>  How many various editions of the English Bible are available today?
>  Were any of them produced by careful, scholarly (not
> to mentioned inspired) revision based on errors in the original parchment,
> or papyrus scrolls?  Not to my knowledge.

Yes, they _were_ translated by  (1) careful, (2) scholarly, (3) inspired
methods.

We may not have the original autographs, but then neither (to my knowledge)
do you still have the original plates.  We have early manuscripts in the
_original_ languages, while I don't believe the same can be said for the
BoM.

We also have enough copies of the early mss to have about 99.9% confidence
in what the autographs held, since there is no significant disagreement
among the available mss.  This is comparable to the _one_ (1) copy of
the English translation of the BoM, which is arguably partially illegible by
your own admission.

IMO, it is just this kind of thinking that explains why there are so many
Mormons that don't read the Bible at all, despite the fact that it is
canonized as part of the "Standard Works".

I will agree that there is one book that is the most correct book in the
world.  I will also agree that this "most correct" book is in the LDS
Standard Works.  But that's about as far as we agree.  :-)

In Christ,

Jeff Shirton
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Date:         Fri, 17 Apr 1992 13:24:00 EST
From:         "Crista L. Allen" <01CLALLEN@BSUVAX1.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Safe Sex #2

>From: Paul Moloney <pmoloney@MATHS.TCD.IE>
>
>danny@utkux1.utk.edu (Danny McCampbell) writes:
>
>>I always pray
>>before I go anywhere that God will place His warring angels around me and
>>I plead the blood of Jesus over my life.  Then I have the protection I need
>>to safely drive to where I need to go.  Just a thought.
>
>Oh, so obviously the only people who get killed in car crashes are atheists.
>
>P.
>--

Paul,

I don't believe that Danny means to say that atheists are the only people
who get killed in car crashes or are harmed in any other way for that matter.
There have been alot of incidents around here where Christian women have
been abducted by men, raped, and killed or never seen or heard of again.
These are "good" Christian people that this happens too.

I too pray when I am eating, walking, or whatever.  I ask that Jesus be with
me and watch over me.  I thank Him for that.  If something happens to me,
I know where I will be if I die.  I believe that is probably what Danny is
saying...  That he knows he is safe because he knows where he will go if
he does die.

Crista
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Date:         Mon, 6 Apr 1992 16:05:29 MET
From:         EPRM107@HUECO.UNI-WIEN.AC.AT
Subject:      Re: Marrying a non-Christian

   Hello!

In my  translation  (Good News for Modern Man,  NT in  Today's English
(c) '66, '76 American Bible Society) 2 Cor 6:14-15 is translated a bit
other way:  'Do not try to work together as equals  with  unbelievers,
for it cannot be done.  How can right and  wrong be partners?  How can
light and darkness live together? (15)  How can Christ  and Devil live
together? What does a believer have in common with an unbeliever?'

Interpreting these verses, I felt that it's not verse 14 that tells us
not to marry non-Christians, however in my old  Hungarian  translation
verse 14 sounds similar to yours, so does in the latest.

But there's a verse I have never heard about when discussing  marrying
a non-Christian. This is 1 Cor 7:14, in my Bible: 'For the unbelieving
husband is made acceptable to God being united to his wife, and the un-
believing wife is made acceptable to God by being united to her husband.
If this were not so, their children would be like pagan children, but as
it is, they are acceptable to God.' In Hungarian, in the place of 'made
acceptable to God' stands 'saint'. That's not saying NO to such marriages!

Will anyone be so kind as to  explain me what it actually  means to be
acceptable to God in this context.

But in the end, I have to remember everybody, that our Lord's grace is
big enough to solve all our problems, but it's  God Himself who should
lead us in making decisions.

Thank you for the answers on my problem. I go on seeking the Lord's will
in my life.

And a prayer request: my mother was rushed to  hospital  two days ago,
she's really sick. /Sorry, my English is not good enough to translate
the  name  of her illness./ She seems to receive Jesus, but it's  not
really clear by now /I haven't seen her for two weeks/.
    Please pray for her!!!

I am travelling home because of her so I went nomail for at least a week.
Please send me a copy of letters discussing this theme.


         God bless all of you, and the LISTSERV management!

                                 Attila Gajdos
                         EPRM107@Hueco.Uni-Wien.AC.AT
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Wed, 8 Apr 1992 14:52:36 EST
From:         Kerry Stephenson <KSTE@PURCCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: re-pro-choice

Darryl:

One can mix egg and sperm in a laboratory and not produce life.  We
cannot generate life 100% of the time, no matter what we do.  There
is some other mechanism that we are incapable of invoking that creates
life.  That, I believe, requires the intervention of God.  If God
creates life, it is a blessing.
                                 Love INC,
                                          --Kerry
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Date:         Tue, 7 Apr 1992 12:45:11 EST
From:         Ian Williams <iwilliam@AU.ORACLE.COM>
Subject:      Re: Prayer Request
X-To:         CHRISTIA@ASUVM.INRE.ASU.EDU
              6, 92 9:50 am

>
>I am very new to this network and must say I find it most rewarding
>to read the information on a daily basis.  I find it necessary to now
>ask for your help.  This is a challenging time for me right now and
>I ask for your prayers with regard to prosperity and a strengthening
>of my faith.  I pray to walk with Christ and fear not.  Many thanks for
>your thoughts and prayers and I ask that God's blessings be with you all,
>too!
>
Dear Roberta

"for God has not given us a Spirit of Fear, but of love, power and a sound
 mind"..

 "perfect love drives out all fear"..

(just a couple from memory there)..

God bless and welcome to the list!.. I will include you in my prayers..



*****************************************************************************
Ian Williams          			Internet: iwilliam@au.oracle.com
Oracle Systems         			Phone   : +61 8 239 3900
Adelaide, Australia
From: andrew@cm.cf.ac.uk
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: Star Trek & Morality
Date: 6 Apr 92 09:15:18 GMT
Organization: Univ of Wales College of Cardiff

In article <CHRISTIA%92040309095461@ASUACAD.BITNET> KSTE@PURCCVM.BITNET (Kerry
Stephenson) writes:
>Andrew writes that "to equate racial tolerance with tolerance for sin is
>wrong" (I'm paraphrasing here.)  But I think we need to recognize that racial
>tolerance (even Christian love for people of different races, ethnicities,
>etc) has in fact become synonymous in the public mind with absolute tolerance
>for anything at all.

I agree. Indeed, this is one of the points I was trying to make. Sorry it
wasn't clearer!

>Jesus told us to LOVE each other, not to TOLERATE each other.

Agreed, again. Jesus loved people we might be tempted to
think were unlovable. In His sight, of course, we are all
sinful and it's amazing that He finds any of us lovable.

Andrew.
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Date:         Wed, 8 Apr 1992 22:44:00 EST
From:         The Nuzz <V063KC44@UBVMS.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Becky and Mormonism

Doug Gould writes...

[... ...]

dg> I think you were right to want to get to the bottom, so to speak, of these
dg> doctrines in order to not confuse your children.  It's a shame you weren't
dg> more carefully taught, yourself, growing up in the Church, so you would be
dg> prepared with the faith and understanding to know how to deal with them.

        How much education does it take to believe, say, McConkie
        when he teaches that Brigham Young didn't/did teach that
        Adam was our God?

[... ...]

dg> I'm also thankful this isn't so, Becky.  I'm am sorry you were told that
dg> anything outside of the LDS Church would be an abomination to God, because
dg> it simply isn't so.  There is much that is "virtuous, lovely, or of good
dg> report or praiseworthy" in other Christian denominations--indeed, in many
dg> of the other religions of the world.

        According to the ``authorized'' version of the first vision,
        Joseph Smith taught, ``...I asked the personages who stood
        above me in the light, which of all the sects was right,...I
        was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all
        wrong, and the personage who addressed me said that all their
        creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors
        were all corrupt,... (_Times and Seasons_, Vol. 3, page 748)
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Date:         Mon, 13 Apr 1992 11:01:53 EDT
From:         Bernice Tennant <U1A9A@WVNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: re-pro-choice

Woe upon those who harm a hair on their heads!
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Date:         Tue, 7 Apr 1992 00:41:58 EDT
From:         JEK@NIHCU.BITNET
Subject:      Tuesday 7 April 1992
X-To:         CHRISTIA@ASUACAD.BITNET, BSTUDY-L@UTARLVM1.BITNET,
              IVCF-L@UBVM.BITNET

TUESDAY BEFORE PALM SUNDAY

Almighty God, who through the incarnate Word dost make us to be born
anew of an imperishable and eternal seed:  Look with compassion, we
beseech thee, upon those who are being prepared for Holy Baptism,
and grant that they may be built as living stones into a spiritual
temple acceptable unto thee; through Jesus Christ our Lord, who
liveth and reigneth with thee and the Holy Spirit, one God, for ever
and ever.
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Date:         Wed, 15 Apr 1992 16:20:52 CDT
From:         THERESA BLACKWELL <TBLACKWL@USMCP6.BITNET>
Subject:      PRAYER REQUEST

 CAROL...
 I'm askig you to be in prayer for my friends Tony and Steina.
 They've just told me that the Devil is really messing with them right now.
 They know that you're a member of the Christia list.
 Also, they have known that Keith (Gatlin) is on this list.
 Please repost this to Christia for me.
 Tell everyone on Christia that I need this ... not just for Steina and
 Tony but also for all of us everywhere that are under Satan's attack.
 I believe that God has worked wonders through you and several of my
 friends...
 Please know that I'll pray for you and the other Christia people.
 Through God's love, and mighty power, we can overcome this.
 "Greater is HE that is in US, than he that is in the world"
  ***************
  Keep smiling and may God Bless!
  Theresa / "G"

 * <TBLACKWL@USMCP6.BITNET>
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Date:         Tue, 7 Apr 1992 10:14:01 EST
From:         Kerry Stephenson <KSTE@PURCCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: rally

All & Sundry:

As to the 500,000 figure.  It is well known by all political activist
groups that the estimates of the National Parks Service and the DC
Police always conflict with the estimates supplied by the groups
themselves.  IMHO, in the absence of some scientific way of calculating
the actual number of attendees (people who sign up for the busses may
not have ended up going, the police may inadvertently be counting people
just doing business in Washington, etc.), we should consider all such
numbers suspect and irrelevant.  Compared to the number of registered
voters, half a million people, a million people, ten million people,
still represent a minority.  Let us simply agree to agree that the numbers
are big on both sides, but no march can substitute for legislation and
personal direct action.
  In addition to which, Marty is right.  Numbers have nothing to do with
morality.  God is not a democrat.  I hate to revert to slogans again (look
what happened _last_ time!), but what is right is not always popular and what
is popular is not always right.
                                 Love INC
                                         ---Kerry
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Tue, 7 Apr 1992 08:29:00 GMT
From:         HANNANT@JII.AFRC.AC.UK
Subject:      "Oh..

"Oh what a beautiful morning." (Its raining)
"Oh what a beautiful day." (Rain forecast all day)
"Oh what a wonderful feeling." (!? ;-) )
"EVERY THING IS GOING GOD'S WAY" (Praise the Lord)
From: VCHAI@SMITH.BITNET (The List Minor)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Abuse, and abortion
Date: 10 Apr 92 18:19:00 GMT
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 Allen writes in response to Kim's post:
>Kim wrote --
>----
> I am from a big family and poverty was all that bad ...
>----

> I am also from a big and poor family but I can not agree that poverty
>is that bad.

  (The previous post by Kim mentioned abuse in her big family, not
   just in small families, a point brought up by another member on
   the list.)

   Abuse can exist in all sizes of family, at all socio-economic levels,
   in all kinds of form (ie. verbal, emotional, physical, sexual), and
   committed by all kinds of parents, even so-called Christian parents.
   It doesn't matter where you're coming from.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

   From abuse, to having children:
   I personally think it's foolish to have children when one cannot
   provide decently for it.  Decently in the sense that the child
   will have an opportunity to attend school, have enough to eat, etc.

   In my country, most of the Indians (not Native Indians, mind you)
   are from the lower classes.  They usually have a dozen kids or
   more, the parents are uneducated and alcoholics, and the kids
   are left to fend for themselves.  Even if the parents were sober
   hard-working grown-ups, the ability to provide for such a large
   family is simply not realistic.  A vicious cycle develops because
   most of the time, the children drop out of school to work.  How much
   can children earn anyway??  When they become adults, what kind of
   jobs can they get without a decent education??  You may say that
   if these kids have love, it will be enough.  Love??  Can love
   fill an empty stomach?  Can love give a child education?  There
   are very few success stories of children who come from
   impoverished homes.

   Children are a blessing from God?  Indeed.  But let their lives
   be a blessing to themselves too.  _Don't_ have kids if
   you can't provide well enough for them.

   Off track,
   Vicky

   P.S. BTW, I'm not advocating abortion, but all this talk about
        having children because they're blessings :-{ ...  Darryl made
        a good point the other day about having children etc.  I've
        not read any response to _that_ yet.
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Date:         Mon, 6 Apr 1992 04:44:56 EST
From:         Kerry Stephenson <KSTE@PURCCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: abortion poll
              5 Apr 1992 15:43:21 EDT from <KEL111@PSUVM.PSU.EDU>

Kurt:

I called the number.  The other problem with the poll is that it only
asks three questions.  The first question gives you options about your
position on abortion, but fails to include a response that is against abortion
EXCEPT to save the mother's life (it has the traditional rape, incest,
life of the mother set, which I reject on the grounds that abortion in the
first two cases is unjustifiable in the sight of God.)  The second question
I have already forgotten.  (Oh, yeah.  The first question is set up so that
someone like me is forced to either advocate abortion in two unacceptable
circumstances or reject it in ALL cases, which begs the question of the
mother's life.  Not good.)  The third question asks whether you would vote
for a candidate based solely on his/her position on abortion.
IMHO, this type of research is a very silly exercise and yields very little
in the way of helpful information.  (MY questionnaire is SEVEN pages long!
And _I_ don't even have major media funding or a telephone bank!)
                                            Love INC,
                                                     ---Kerry
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Date:         Mon, 6 Apr 1992 14:51:00 EDT
From:         The List Minor <VCHAI@SMITH.BITNET>
Subject:      Allen..

>Hi! My name is Allen.  I come from Taiwan.
>I took months to search over a lot of server to find this place where I
>can talk with other Christians.

   Welcome to the list, Allen!

>  After subscribing my name to this server
>ten minutes ago, I surprisely find that I have already accumated five messages
>from it.  I can not image how many I would receive when I login tomorrow

   Nor would you really want to :-)  These postings fly(!) back and forth.

   Vicky
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Date:         Thu, 9 Apr 1992 22:40:00 EST
From:         The Nuzz <V063KC44@UBVMS.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: ACLJ & CASE

Michael Kline writes...

[... ...]

>Keith ??? from American Center for Law and Justice asked Pat to
>make this announcement.

        It is Keith Fournier, Esq., Formerly of the Franciscan
University of Steubenville, now Director of the American Center for
Law and Justice. Father of five, he has a program that appears on EWTN.
Author of two books, with a third in the works, set to be published in
the fall. The one book title that I do remember is, _Evangelical
Catholics_.

        I didn't check his bio, the facts are still clear in my short
term memory: He just spoke at a local rally, on Saturday past.
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Date:         Fri, 10 Apr 1992 21:47:25 EST
From:         Kerry Stephenson <KSTE@PURCCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: whos doing what--corr
              10 Apr 1992 14:04:32 CST from
              <CXKJP%UTXDP.bitnet@UTXVM.CC.UTEXAS.EDU>

Kim:

I misread the posting.  But my point is still valid, "even though it
was not her fault" implies that it might somehow have been.  I think
we need to stop thinking of rape as something that can be justified,
and stop calling being whistled at "symbolic rape."  Rape is extremely
serious, and cannot ever be justified.  Hope I haven't confused things
too much with all this.
                       Love INC,
                                ---Kerry
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Date:         Tue, 7 Apr 1992 04:09:58 EDT
From:         Marty Helgesen <MNHCC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Abortion & Don't

Darryl,  I have no doubt.  Abortion should be illegal.
Marty Helgesen
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Date:         Fri, 17 Apr 1992 08:50:00 CDT
From:         MB09@SWTEXAS.BITNET
Subject:      NOMAIL

Hi,

I am setting nomail for this weekend as we only have a half day today and
I will be very busy today and Monday catching up so I won't have time to
read my mail.

Have a beautiful Easter weekend!

Love,

Michelle R. Bruce
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Date:         Wed, 8 Apr 1992 09:12:00 CDT
From:         MB09@SWTEXAS.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Two different questions

From:         Kerry Stephenson <KSTE@PURCCVM.BITNET>

>   (In reference to "birth control") "[Question] Is it an abortion?
>[Answer]  Definitely not.  An abortion kills the life of a baby after
>it has begun.  It is dangerous to your life and health.  It may make you
>sterile so that when you want a child you cannot have it.  Birth control
>merely postpones the beginning of life."--from "Plan Your Children for
>Health and Happiness," published by Planned Parenthood-World Population,
>515 Madison Avenue, NY, 1965.
>
>  Should we take their word for it?  What say you?
>                                                  Love and Peace INC,
>                                                              ---Kerry

Notice that Planned Parenthood themselves (the largest unborn baby killing
conglomerate in the United States) admit that the "product of conception"
IS a _baby_ that has _life_!!!

May Christ's Peace and Love be with you,

Michelle
      _|_
       |
"With God all things are  possible."  Matthew 19:26
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Date:         Tue, 7 Apr 1992 17:48:08 EDT
From:         "Joseph P. Riolo" <riolo@COR4.PICA.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: Re: JW's Translation
X-To:         CHRISTIA@asuvm.inre.asu.edu
X-cc:         riolo@PICA.ARMY.MIL

Stephen,

>> From: "Joseph P. Riolo" <riolo@mil.army.pica.cor4>
>>
>>       In early Greek manuscripts, all letters are capitals.  THEOS can
>> mean "God", "god", or "divine".
>>
>Yes, but when used in the predicate nominative it must mean "God".

       Can you explain a little more on this?  Thanks.

                                        Joseph P. Riolo
                                        <riolo@pica.army.mil>
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