HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: delatizk@bbn.com (Jonathan Delatizky)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: SEARCH Help request
Date: 17 Aug 92 15:11:08 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Host: bbn.com

dbrooks@osf.org (David Brooks) writes:

>The words to "Jerusalem" are by William Blake, and published in "Milton
>(1804-1808): II.34.  He was moaning about the effects of the Industrial
>Revolution, and feeding off the then popular view of Jerusalem as the
>original Shining City On A Hill.  Those who sing this song with patriotic
>gusto probably don't stop to think how subversive the words are.  It was
>written as four 4-line stanzas, incidentally.

Billy Bragg recorded an intriguing "Jerusalem" that was released on an EP
here a couple of years ago.  The disc also included a rewritten text to the
Internationale.

This is probably the only version I've heard that picks up on David's
comment.  Most seem to swallow the bogus sense of patriotism usually
associated with the piece.

[Not a performer frequently mentioned in this newsgroup!]

--
Jonathan Delatizky  *  Bolt Beranek & Newman  * If you mention Rimbaud in Bel
delatizky@bbn.com   *    10 Moulton Street    *  Air it is assumed you're
{...}!bbn!delatizky *   Cambridge MA 02138    *  talking about Sylvester
+1 617 873 3366     *  FAX: +1 617 873 2205   *  Stallone  -  Peter Mayle
Xref: sparky rec.music.classical:11230 rec.music.folk:5615 rec.music.misc:21669 rec.music.dementia:1272
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical,rec.music.folk,rec.music.misc,rec.music.dementia
Subject: Re: musical coincidences
From: elkies@ramanujan.harvard.edu (Noam Elkies)
Date: 14 Aug 92 12:40:32 EDT
Organization: Harvard Math Department
Summary: Shemer "Lu Y'hi" ~ Schubert "Gute Nacht"?

In article <1992Aug14.080335.6403@uniwa.uwa.edu.au>
diarmuid@uniwa.uwa.edu.au (Diarmuid Pigott) writes:
>Chopin: Fantasie Impromptu/ Beatles "Yesterday" "... why she had to go.."

This is rather far-fetched...  Yes, the first half-dozen or so pitches
are almost identical(*) but the harmonic context and rhythm aren't nearly
close enough.

This reminds me, though: most Israelis reading this will know N.Shemer's
popular song "Lu Y'hi"; since most other readers won't, it goes something
like this (transposed to A minor):

 c|bagfe_ade|fffeedd |cde_ab bc|a   x  ^c|bagfe_ade|fffeedd |cde_ab bc|a   x 

cd|e efg ec|^a .gf   |efede bb|c   x cd|e efg ec|^a .gf   |efede bc|a   x 

It's often said that this is a ripoff from the Beatles' "Let It Be", but
I don't hear it.  What I do hear is Schubert's "Gute Nacht", the first
_Winterreise_ song (Fremd bin ich eingezogen, fremd zieh ich weider aus...):

c |b a e c |b .cb ^a |e .cecbc|a   x ^c |b a e c |b .cb ^a |e .cecbc|a   x 

g |c c c c |d .ed e |gfe d ef|e   x [etc.]

Coincidence?


(*) I'm assuming D.Pigott is thinking of the second phrase of the Db-Major
section of the Fantasie-Impromptu, which transposed down a half-step is

a   |.   b-ade|f e d e |c  ~e .d|d  [etc.]

(the ~ indicates a written-out turn/grupetto), and the Yesterday phrase

a   a   |d e f ed|e .dc d |a   x   |a   a   |d e f ed|e .dc e |f [etc.]


--Noam D. Elkies (elkies@zariski.harvard.edu)
  Dept. of Mathematics, Harvard University
From: midkiff@public.BTR.COM (Neil E. Midkiff  midkiff@btr.com)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Not-quite-unisons in piano tuning
Keywords: intonation, intervals
Date: 14 Aug 92 16:23:15 GMT
Organization: BTR Public Access UNIX, MtnView CA. Contact: Customer Service cs@BTR.COM

In article <1992Aug12.221827.14680@husc3.harvard.edu>
elkies@ramanujan.harvard.edu (Noam Elkies) writes:
>In article <1992Aug12.232903.19191@newshost.unh.edu>
>dvf@kepler.unh.edu (David V Feldman) writes:
>>[...]  It would be interesting to do an experiment
>>to see whether the ear would accept unjust intervals as just because
>>the anharmonic partials were tuned justly.
>
>In some sense you perform such an experiment each time you play
>a piano (assuming it is "in tune"), since the octaves are tuned
>sharp to compensate for the anharmonic octave overtone.  But
>that's just one kind of data point, and confused by things like
>the not-quite-unison tuning of the 3-string courses; it would be
>interesting to see further experiments.

Can anyone provide me with specific details on this "not-quite-unison
tuning"?  (If you saw my posting on Tuning and Temperament a few months
back, you know that I like to clarify things with actual numbers.)

I've heard references like Noam's for years, with no further information.
I've read a few books on piano tuning (including, most recently, Fischer's
book published by Dover) and have never run across any reference to anything
but unisons in tuning 2- or 3-string notes.

Clearly in real life, a tuned unison will soon degrade to a not-quite-unison
anyway.  But if you know any "recipes" that tuners use to get intentional
non-unisons, please post.  Maybe then we can figure out what the intended
result is and why it works.

Thanks!
-Neil
From: basinski@biosci.arizona.edu (Mark Basinski)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Mozart REQUIEM
Date: 13 Aug 92 23:08:32 GMT
Followup-To: rec.music.classical
Distribution: usa
Organization: Univ. of Arizona

> I also enjoy this piece, but you do realize that Mozart did not compose 
> the entire work. 

If you wish to take the time to study the work, take a look at the 
Neue Mozart Ausgabe (should be available in most good music libraries).
Then you can see exactly what Mozart did write. In fact (if memory serves)
with the exception of the Sanctus and the end of the Agnus Dei, Mozart
wrote all the vocal parts (with a figured bass provided to indicate the
harmony) and sketched some instrumental lines and ritornelli (things like
the trombone part in the "Tuba Mirum"). The Dies Irae and Kyrie were fully
orchestrated by Mozart, and most of the rest of the orchestration was
done by Sussmeyer (and possibly the completion of the Sanctus, and some
other parts, though he claimed that Mozart told him what to do). So in
terms of the structure and layout of the work, it is Mozart's work alone
(again, except for few those parts for which the autograph ms lacks). The
main part which is acknowleged to be done by others is the orchestration -
the harmony was indicated by the figured bass in the autograph ms, but it
it the realization and voicing which that ms. lacked.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mark Basinski      Internet: basinski@biosci.arizona.edu
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: k22164@kyyppari.hkkk.fi (Mikko Reinikainen)
Subject: Cage dead
Date: 13 Aug 92 13:54:09 GMT
Distribution: rec
Organization: Helsinki School of Economics, Finland

This morning I heard from the Finnish General Broadcasting Company
that John Cage has dead last night (GMT).

No more need to quarrel whether he is the greatest of the 

--
Mikko Reinikainen
k22164@kyyppari.hkkk.fi
Helsinki School Of Economics and Business Administration
Helsinki University/Faculty Of Law
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: jtbell@hubcap.clemson.edu (Jon Bell)
Subject: Slatkin's Rachmaninoff
Organization: Presbyterian College, Clinton SC
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 02:07:22 GMT

While browsing through a record store today I came across two Vox
Box CD sets of Rachmaninoff's music, with the St. Louis Symphony
conducted by Leonard Slatkin.  One set contains the symphonies, the
other contains various orchestral works (The Bells, etc.).

I was tempted, but I'm aware that Vox Boxes are all over the map as
far as quality goes.  Are these two sets reasonable choices for
someone seeking to fill a gap in his collection cheaply?  Are they
as good a deal as, say, Skrowaczewski's Ravel from the same source?

Jon Bell / Dept. of Physics & Computer Science / Presbyterian College
Clinton SC 29325 / email: jtbell@presby.edu
From: jmcooper@cbnewsk.cb.att.com (janet.m.cooper)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Baby grand pianos-what to look for
Date: 18 Aug 92 18:08:06 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: AT&T


Having recently reactivated my search for a baby grand piano, I
happened to uncover a paper copy of a rec.music.classical posting 
that I had saved from 1987!  The article, from David Sherman, 
was a compilation of suggestions on how to buy a piano.  
(For those desperately interested, I could mail a copy, 
or post a summary of the summary (!), but it is very long- 
too long to retype!]

Anyway, the article gives me a pretty good idea of how to inspect
and evaluate an inexpensive (<$1,000) used piano for occasional,
casual use.  However, now that I've waited 5 years, I'm actually 
in the market for a not-so-inexpensive baby grand for fairly 
serious use.  

I would really appreciate input in the following areas:

	1. What is the lower price limit on an excellent quality
	   NEW baby grand?  For example, I spent last Saturday
           going to piano stores and playing pianos.  The piano
	   that I liked best in terms of action and sound quality
	   was a 5'8" Otto Altman (sp?) for around $5000+.  This
	   seemed nicer than the $10,000 yamaha that I tried, and
	   yet the other Otto Altman's that I tried were totally 
	   unacceptable.

	2. How good are the Korean pianos? eg. Samick? Young Chang?

	3. I like Yamaha, but the Kawai's I've tried don't seem
	   to match the quality of the treble of the Yamaha.
	   (Qualifier: Since I am not a professional pianist, it
	   is very possible I'm not qualified to judge this!)
	   I guess this is subjective, but how much variation
	   is there between pianos of the same style and make?

	4. What brand(s) do you like? have had bad/good experiences
	   with? age poorly? (I'm expecially interested in
	   knowing more about Otto Altman, Yamaha, Kawai, Balwin,
	   and Samick.)  Please feel free to be specific and opinionated!

	5. Since it is likely that I still cannot afford a good quality
	   new piano, should I stick with the "big names" (Yamaha,
	   Kawai, etc.) just to be safe??  What other not-so-big
	   companies made good pianos (and what years)??

	6. The current economy makes it a pretty good time to buy
	   a piano, however, I've been amazed at the low number of
	   used piano ads in the classifieds.  Any suggestions about
	   where else to look???


Thanks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 - Janet Darcie
   
   (netnews impaired- no sig!)
From: givler@bermuda (Greg Givler)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Question of Cuts (was Re: Tristan & Isolde question)
Date: 12 Aug 92 18:31:43 GMT
Followup-To: givler@cbm.commodore.com
Organization: Another Amiga UNIX System

In article <Bss92F.9An@news.udel.edu> conrad@brahms.udel.edu (Jon Conrad) writes:
>In article <1992Aug10.141921.14227@lloyd.Camex.COM> chrisi@lloyd.Camex.COM (Chris Ischay) writes:
>
>>....Flagstad and Melchior.  How I'd love to hear them
>>both sing when their voices were in fullest bloom.  So I'm interested in
>>the recording(?s?) of Tristan & Isolde.  
>
>All performances at that time were cut.  Leinsdorf's cuts (on the MET
>release) are more brutal than any you'll hear now, and yet he actually
>put back a lot of material that his predecessor, Bodanzky, had omitted.
>In Europe they made slightly different choices, and you'll sometimes
>hear more music from those performances.  Melchior's Tristans at
>Bayreuth (unrecorded) were probably the only time he ever sang the first
>(fast) part of the Act II duet in its entirety (the 300-measure slice
>standard there is known in Tristan circles as the "Big Cut").  Hamilton
>specifies, by the way, all the standard Tristan cuts, making it handy to
>write them into one's score.
>

I have a question, on my recording of Faust, on Angel, with Christoff
Gedda, and de Los Angeles, the only cut is the Spinning Song, I think
it starts the Third Act. Anyway, they include the Ballet music but cut
the Spinning Scene. I realize that this scene is commonly cut, but
if you are producing a 4 disk recording in the first place, why not 
include it. Is there a reason other than since it is normally not done
that de Los Angeles may not have known the music?

>Jon Alan Conrad

Greg

-- 
Greg Givler                 | "If you're not going to kill me,
Commodore Product Assurance | I have things to do." - From Darkman
givler@cbmvax.commodore.com |
===============================================================================
From: lampson@tellabs.com (Dave Lampson)
Subject: Re: WANTED: Franz Liszt, Petrarch Sonnets.
Organization: Tellabs, Inc., IL
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 22:18:11 GMT

In article <1992Aug13.165848@ece.arizona.edu> sununu@ece.arizona.edu (Arun Vaidyanath) writes:
>
>I am interested in obtaining any of the above works either in cd or tape form.
>Much appreciation if someone could inform me of their whereabouts.

Many recordings of these three works are available.  They are from the 
"Annees de Pelerinage" Second Year: Italy  S. 161 (specifically #4-6).

I'll second the recommendation for the John Browning recording, which
also includes a truly great performance of the B minor sonata, as well
as the Dante sonata.  Here's the info:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
LISZT                  "Annees de Pelerinage"                 S. 161/4       DDD
                          Second Year: Italy "Sonetto #47 del Petrarca"
                       "Annees de Pelerinage"                 S. 161/5
                          Second Year: Italy "Sonetto #104 del Petrarca"
                       "Annees de Pelerinage"                 S. 161/6
                          Second Year: Italy "Sonetto #123 del Petrarca"
                       "Annees de Peleringe"                  S. 161/7
                          Second Year: Italy "Apres une Lecture du
                          Dante - Fantasia Quasi Sonata"
                       Sonata in B minor                      S. 178
Piano                        BROWNING, John
Delos                                                 D/CD3022       (1) 1:11:10
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


If you are looking for all the "Annes" series, the following is an extremely 
good recording/performance and a very good buy (~$14-16):

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
LISZT                9 "Annees de Pelerinage"                 S. 160         ADD
                           First Year: Switzerland
                     7 "Annees de Pelerinage"                 S. 161
                            Second Year: Italy
                     3 "Annees de Pelerinage" Venice & Naples S. 162
                     7 "Annees de Pelerinage" Third Year      S. 163
Piano                        ROSE, Jerome
Moss Music Group            Vox Box                   CD3X3004       (3) 2:52:02
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


-- 

Dave
lampson@tellabs.com

For detailed lists of Recommended Classical CDs, Basic Repertoire and Buying
Guide access cs.uwp.edu (131.210.1.4) by anonymous FTP, or email me for info.

Contribute to the rec.music.classical biography project!  Email me your bio!

Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: roger@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: SEARCH Help request
Originator: news@nimaster
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1992 01:51:24 GMT

In article <41170004@hpcvra.cv.hp.com> 
chrisr@hpcvra.cv.hp.com (Chris Robson) writes:
>|/ hpcvra:rec.music.classical / givler@bermuda 
(Greg Givler) /  6:49 am  Aug 14, 1992 /
>|In article <13AUG199208573001@portal.lasc.lockheed.com> 
le01167@portal.lasc.lockheed.com (Ron Nadel (x2025)) writes:
>|>I need help locating two musical items.  

>|>1)  At the end of the movie _Chariots of Fire_ the boys choir is singing, 
>|>I believe, _Jerusalem_.  Who composed this?  Are there known recordings?
>|>If so are there recommendations between them, and is the other music by 
>|>this composer something to look into?  The soundtrack album contains only 
>|>the final minute of so featuring an annoying fade-in. 

>|If I remember correctly Jerusalem is an Anglican Hymn. I don't have
>|my hymn books with me, but I bet you could find the tune listed in
>|an Anglican Book of Hymns, or in America an Episcopal Hymn book.

>I don't believe it - I've only been an ex-pat three months and I've forgotten
>who wrote this!!! What will go next, my vowels or my love of beer?

Sir Hubert Parry, ca. 1916, I believe.

>I _do_ remember, though, that the words are from William Blake, and go:

>P.S. Was it Arne?

No, you're thinking of Rule, Britannia, there.  Off by 150 years or so.

And, yes, I'm sure there are recordings out there.  It's also appeared
in many other movies, not least "The Loneliness of the Long Distance
Runner."

Roger
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: roger@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: WEBERN
Originator: news@nimaster
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 20:30:05 GMT

In article <eqJgPB2w164w@sys6626.bison.mb.ca> 
al@sys6626.bison.mb.ca (Haus Der Luge) writes:

>Does anybody here have the BOULEZ/WEBERN box set?

>I understand it's complete save for WEBERN's early pieces that did not 
>have opus numbers.

I've had it for years.  Get both it and the old Craft set; both have
Opp.1-31 plus the Ricercar and one or two other things.  The Boulez box
has a recording of Webern conducting his own Schubert arrangement.

Yes, early non-opus pieces are missing (though Charles Rosen, Heather
Harper, and others recorded many of them for a second set; it was never
issued, alas).  There are scads of songs, a quartet, and some later
non-opus stuff like the little piano piece mentioned here recently and
another string trio movement or two.

The Boulez box has more correct notes, but many of the performances on
the Craft set have more gusto.  Some of the Craft stuff is
unrecognizable, though.

Roger
From: acid+@cs.cmu.edu (Christopher Colby)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Complete Set of LvB Piano Sonatas
Date: 18 Aug 92 18:16:37 GMT
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon

In article <1992Aug18.114949.11747@discus.technion.ac.il> sorin@techunix.technion.ac.il (Goldenberg Sorin) writes:
>1) Is there a complete set of the sonatas played by Stephen Bishop ?

Stephen Bishop-Kovacevich?  I heard he was going to do a cycle for EMI, but
there's extremely little chance he's done by now.  I was figuring we'll see
it maybe a few years from now.  I'm quite looking forward to it.

The SBK sonata recording I have is Op.109 coupled with his Emperor on
Philips budget line, and quite a fine performance it is.

-chris
From: diarmuid@uniwa.uwa.edu.au (Diarmuid Pigott)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: JOHN CAGE
Date: 23 Aug 92 13:51:33 GMT
Organization: University of Western Australia

roger@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig) writes:
: 
: No.  Socialist realism is *not* marxist music or marxist anything else.
: 

Any art derive from Das Kap Marxism must be functional. (I know some say
all art is etc, but that's not germane) This was the tree that grew the
limb from which they hewed the stick that the commisar use to be old
Maxim with. And MacD's book is brilliant.

: 
: >: Wittgenstein, 
[joke deleted by over-enthusiastic emacsing]
sorry I robbed paul to pay ludwig -  my lh did not know what my rh wuz
doing.

: 
: >I see it as embodying the reductionist ethos in some parts.
: 
: I don't see much reductionism in Cage though.
: 

Mr Yoder (poor old chap, leave him alone now) would say the problem with
6'9" is that it is reductionist. Somewhere I have a wonderful article
coparing Zen and Popper/Ayer. I'll try to dig it up. It compares the
Zen/Positivist world-views to the Zaehner/Huxley debate over the Doors 
of Perception. (Sand Garden v. "Make a desert and call it tranquility")
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: roger@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: Schreker
Originator: news@nimaster
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 23:10:13 GMT

In article <1992Aug20.220422.20479@CSD-NewsHost.Stanford.EDU> spg@Xenon.Stanford.EDU (Stephen P. Guthrie) writes:
>I'd like some information about this composer (Schreker). Particularly whether
>it's worth shelling out for any of his operas. I've seen two at mid-price:
>Die Ferne Klang, and Der Schatzgraber (probably incorrect spelling). What
>is this stuff like? Perhaps Straussian? What about the chamber symphony?
>
>

Somewhere between strauss and early Schoenberg, maybe; an extension of
late-romantic loosening of tonality.  *Der* ferne Klang (sorry, I
emphasize this spelling because a remarkably idiotic book on Berg got it
wrong throughout some years back) is his best-known opera, and is
crucial to the musical history of the time.  It was widely criticized as
"Decadent" and so on.  

Schreker was a friend of Schoenberg and Berg and others, and also
conducted a good deal in Vienna.  Later, he was a colleague of
Schoenberg at the Academy of Fine Arts in Berlin.  Being Jewish, he was
dismissed when Schoenberg was, and of course the old rap of "decadence"
was held up against him.  He died in 1934.

Like many other composers of the second rank, he never found much of an
audience outside Germany and Austria; and the complete suppression of
his work there was something that was hard to reverse after the war,
especially as he was long-dead by then.

In any case, he, like Zemlinsky, never made the leap to atonality.

Roger
From: knotts@hpl-opus.hpl.hp.com (Tom Knotts)
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1992 00:38:37 GMT
Subject: Re: Re: Bach music for solo strings (CELLO suites on VIOLA)
Organization: HP Labs, High Speed Electronics Dept., Palo Alto, CA
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical

> 
>Incidently, try to find a copy of the facsimile of the manuscript for
>the violin partitas and sonatas. The handwriting is truly sublime.  It
>is almost as much fun to look at it as to hear it played.

I was looking these over last night, and I couldn't help to notice
that in the 40+ pages, written in ink, there wasn't a single note
crossed out. Of course I'm sure that this was a copy made after the
compositions were complete, but to me it is truly amazing that one
could write out so much so accurately.

Then again, making copies was pretty common practice back then. Perhaps
this was not so uncommon.

Tom
From: vanloon@cwi.nl (Maarten van Loon)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Beethoven - overvalued?
Date: 18 Aug 92 12:35:45 GMT
Organization: CWI, Amsterdam

In article <1992Aug18.030503.26388@usage.csd.unsw.OZ.AU> markc@hydra.maths.unsw.EDU.AU writes:
>Surely the correct list of great composers would have to be
>1)Beethoven (late period)
>2)Beethoven (middle period)
>3)Beethoven (early period)
>
>Mark C.

First of all, Bach should be on the first place of the list of great
composers.

If I had to make of my favorite Van Beethovens, it certainly would be

    1. Van Beethoven (early period)
    2. Van Beethoven (middle period)
    3. Van Beethoven (late period)

Maybe I am influenced by my dad, because he would certainly want to
have it in reversed order.

Maarten
-- 
 CWI, P.O.Box 4079      The easiest answers are the most
 1009 AB Amsterdam      difficult to find 
 The Netherlands
 email: vanloon@cwi.nl  Not knowing Bach = not really living
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: dgolber@aero.org (Dave Golber)
Subject: Re: Orff: a few facts
Organization: The Aerospace Corporation
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 00:33:09 GMT

>Thomas Mann took an anti-Nazi stance, possibly to compensate for his
>embarassing cheerleading circa 1914.  I assume he would have been safe
>otherwise, so maybe he qualifies.  But I can't remember if he left the
>country. 

Mann was in Switzerland in 1933 when the Nazis came to power.
His friends and children warned him not to come back, and he didn't.
His attitude towards the Nazis was well-known (I would assume)
to anyone who was at all aware of his attitudes.  But it was a few years
later that he definitely was very public about it.

I have seen the point made that it is harder for a writer to switch 
countries than for a musician ... for obvious reasons.

OF COURSE if he'd stayed and said and wrote the right things, he
would have been safe.  (Hauptmann was.)  But then he wouldn't have
been who he was.

But then: as much as I love Mann, I have to say I don't think he
was a political genius.

Dave Golber
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical