From: tom@portland.mdc.unisys.com (Tom Albrecht)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: er,excuse me
Date: 27 Jul 92 20:03:22 GMT
Organization: Unisys - Applied Technology

Harvey Smith writes:
>
> RA=>For example, the founder of the "Union of Messianic Jewish
> RA=>Congregations" and pastor of a Rockville, Maryland "Messianic
> RA=>Jewish [sic]" congregation is an ordained Presbyterian minister
> RA=>and was born of a Jewish father and a gentile mother.  
>
>Since you are speaking about Dan Juster, i will reply, since he is a 
>personal friend of mine, and i served in executive capacity on the board of 
>the Union of Messianic Jewish Congregations.
>
>Your information is incorrect and false, and you would do well to get your 
>facts straight before you make accusations.

As far as I can tell, there were three "facts" presented in Mr. Levene's
messages.  Maybe Harvey can tells us precisely which ones are false:

1)  That the "founder" of the UMJC is the pastor of an MJ congregation in
    Rockville, MD (who Harvey says is Dan Juster) (TRUE/FALSE)?

2)  That this pastor of the MJ congregation in Rockville, MD  is an
    ordained Presbyterian minister (TRUE/FALSE)?

3)  That this pastor has a Jewish father and non-Jewish mother (TRUE/FALSE)?

#3 seems to be true, from what Harvey wrote in his response.  #2 wasn't
addressed by Harvey, and regarding #1 he continues:

>The UMJC was created by 20 Messianic Jewish Congregations independent of Dan 
>Juster.  Dan was called to be the first president by the Union of the 
>organization.  Soon after my shule joined the movement, and i became the 
>executive secretary of the Movement..

Are you saying that Rev. Juster had NOTHING to do with the 20 original MJ
congregations, and that they decided to call him out of the blue as first
president AFTER the formation of the UMJC?  Was he not the pastor of the
Rockville MJ congregation at this time, and did that congregation have
nothing to do with the founding of the UMJC?

I still don't see where Mr. Levene stated anything obviously "incorrect
and false."

>Since you mentioned the AOG church, it would be proper for me to respond 
>here.  Since the AOG is not a denomination but a movement, there are many 
>folks from many different backgrounds.  ...

denomination (n): a religious organization uniting in a single legal and
administrative body a number of local congregation.

Harvey, are you seriously trying to tell us that the AOG of today (or 25
years ago) is not a Christian denomination?  I believe the AOG has a large
complex in Springfield, MO for "legal and administrative" purposes.  Sounds
like you're trying to stretch the truth to make some point, but I can't for
the life of me figure out what that point is.  (BTW, my wife's family is
AOG, and I'm sure if you asked them they'd say it was a denomination.)

>                                        Each Church and or congregation is 
>independent and Sovereign, but gather with the parent organization for World 
>evangelism...  NO secret there either Robert.... ...

The Souther Baptists have a similar setup, and do one would dispute the
fact that the SBC is a Christian denomination.

>evangelism...  NO secret there either Robert.... However, the majority of MJ 
>congregations are non affiliated with anyone but the UMJC which itself is an 
>independent umbrella organization, with its members still maintaining their 
>independence and sovereignty...

And so the UMJC becomes another Christian denomination; same as the AOG,
SBC, PCUSA, PECUSA, etc.

-- 
Tom Albrecht