HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: bath@dw3f.ess.harris.com (Kenneth Bath)
Subject: Re: homilies
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 23:39:46 GMT
Reply-To: bath@dw3f.ess.harris.com (Kenneth Bath)
Organization: Harris Semiconductor, Melbourne  FL

In article <2B65746D@postoffice.ucc.american.edu>,   Jim McIntosh
<Jim@AMERICAN.EDU> writes:
||>The homily at mass is part of the liturgical celebration, not part of
an
|>adult education semimar. It is a very brief time during which we are
|>able to
|>reflect on the readings we have just heard and decide how they are to
|>be
|>applied to our lives. I, for one, would look for another church to
|>attend if
|>the priest stood up and said "Let's ignore what we just heard and what
|>we are
|>about to do, and instead continue our series on 'Church Symbols of the
|>Middle
|>Ages'."
|>I agree with you completely that we are under-educated in our faith.
|>(I,
|>among others, demonstrate that regularly on this list.) The place for
|>this
|>education, however, is in seminars held at a parish or diocesan level,
|>or
|>continuing education classes at a local Cathoic college, not during
|>our
|>celebration of the mass.

The homily is "an explanation, pertinent to the mystery being celebrated
and the special needs of the listeners, of some point in either the readings
from sacred Scripture or in another text from the Ordinary or Proper parts
of the Mass;  it is a proclamation of the Good News for a response of faith."
(_The Catholic Almanac_,"Mass, Eucharistic Sacrifice and Banquet")

It would strike me that 'Church Symbols of the Middle Ages' would indeed
be a topic which would fit this definition.  Certainly symbols (some of the
dating to the Middle Ages) surround the Ordinary and Proper parts of the
Mass.  (BTW, the symbols I suggested pre-date the Middle Ages and can
be found in Scripture, except maybe the Ixthus.)

The under-education of the Laity is makes it appropriate to have sermons
to educate us.  I feel like I spent the greater part of my religious education
as a child (CCD & Catholic school) cutting out pictures for collages and 
coloring pictures.  If not for one particular educator, who taught me more
about our Catholic heritage in one year than I learned in the other eleven,
I might be lost.  It makes me think that there may be a whole generation
lost (especially after listening to last Sunday's sermon on Catholic schools).

BTW,  in researching what a homily should be, I noted that Canon Law reserves
the preaching of a homily during Mass to persons who are ordained.  Well,
last Sunday's sermon was delivered by a lay person.  You learn something
every day....

Ken Bath
From: mjsmith@cac.washington.edu (Martha Smith )
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Re:      Deacons and their academic requirements
Date: 21 Jan 93 18:33:36 GMT
Organization: UW Computing
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Under Hunthausen before the permanent deaconate program was halted, there was a
two year (nights and weekends) training program that did not lead to a degree in
the Seattle Archdiocese.  There is an Archdiocesan/Seattle University program
with a variety of Master's degree options that is the primary training ground
for lay ministers (Institute for Theological Studies).  It also runs a number
of continuing education and other certificate (non-degree) programs.
From: mjsmith@cac.washington.edu (Martha Smith )
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Re:Moral judgment was Re: Homosexual acts
Date: 21 Jan 1993 23:27:35 GMT
Organization: UW Computing
Distribution: world
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While an act may be objectively wrong, it may also be the morally correct act
e.g. killing a crazed bomber before he detonates the bomb in the crowded theater
(okay make your own realistic example).  We are imperfect beings in an inperfect
world and hence we act in an inperfect manner.  When making a moral decision, it
is necessary to recognize acts as objectively right/wrong but that is not the
sole criterion.

Social sin tends to occur when we ignore an objectively wrong act claiming that
it is not our responsibility.  Discrimination on ethnic, religious, sexual 
grounds is a good example ... if one continues to frequent a store that is
known to discriminate in hiring and promotion, for example.  One can probably
never completely avoid social sin (any more than personal sin), but one can
show an increased sensativity that decreases the quantity, one can be absolved
of guilt, etc.

One must segregate two features of sin - the culpability and the presence. While
one reads of saints with apparently little culpability, I have yet to read of
saints praying "Lord, have mercy on me, a just and holy man" ... somehow "lord,
have mercy on me a sinner"
From: jocallag@artin.helios.nd.edu (john ocallaghan)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Re:      Re: Homosexual acts
Date: 22 Jan 93 03:23:52 GMT
Organization: OUC, University of Notre Dame

In article <1993Jan22.022052.26877@news.nd.edu> jocallag@artin.helios.nd.edu (john ocallaghan) writes:
>In article <2B5E3DAC@postoffice.ucc.american.edu> Jim McIntosh <Jim@AMERICAN.EDU> writes:
>>>
>>>So you are saying that it was once true that the world was flat?
>>
>>No, of course not. I'm sorry I was not more clear. I am saying that the minds
>>of those who hear the truths over time change, and therefore the way that
>>unchanging truth is presented must also change or else it loses its meaning
>>and understanding.
>
>You say the way that "unchanging truth is presented must also change."
>That looks like a contradiction in terms, which unless the laws of logic
>also change as you argue other thing do, seems to be false, at least as long
>as the principle of non-contradiction is stable.

I correct myself for this inexcusable error in logic.  What Jim said here
is not a contradiction.  Did not read it close enough.  If any of you have
already posted to correct me, sorry beat ya to it. :-)

Peace,
John
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Date:         Fri, 22 Jan 1993 10:09:34 -0500
From:         URSIC@ASTRO.CS.HH.AB.COM
Subject:      Re: Language, Meaning, Truth (Was: Homosexual acts)

john ocallaghan <jocallag@ARTIN.HELIOS.ND.EDU> writes:

>WARNING TO PIOUS EARS: WHAT FOLLOWS IS SOMEWHAT GRAPHIC SO DO NOT READ ON
>IF YOU ARE EASILY UPSET BY SUCH EXPLICIT LANGUAGE
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ READ THIS ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
OK, I'll leave this for those "upset-able" types:-)






>I take it to be the case that in biblical times men had penises.  I also
>take it to be the case that in biblical times men had rectums.  I also
>take it to be the case that people died.
>Now I take it to be the case that according to the best translations we
>have now in English, the claim is made that the best way to translate what
>was recorded by various writers of various scripture passages is that various
>individuals including St. Paul were saying words to the effect that if
>a man puts his penis in another man's rectum and ejaculates then such a man
>has done great wrong, and is, as someone pointed out earlier "deserving"
>of death.

John, as you have stated previously, you (and "the Church") feel that the
underlying truth here is that the intent of every ejaculation must be to
be open to new life. (This is the premise at least "I" think you go on)

I think that this premise is faulty as it then requires some sort
of rationalization to accept intercourse between an elderly couple (who
cannot conceive because of the natural aging process in the female) and
not to accept intercourse between a homosexual couple.

It also seems to question the ability of man to control nature. While
natural emmisions occur nocturnally, masturbation is condemned as a
way of controlling these events.

The rules appear to have been set up to defend the heterosexual way of
life rather than being open to all persons being allowed to express
love in a way which is "natural" for them.

>Now we may no longer want to accept as true what was said.  We may want
>to say it was true for them but not for us.  But I don't think you can argue
>on the basis of different language, different world view, different times
>that something that was true is not now true.  My point is this is not
>a question about language, world views, times etc.  This a question about
>human actions that were capable of being performed then, and are equally
>capable of being performed now.

Are you open to considering that homosexual acts between heterosexuals
are just as wrong as heterosexual acts between homosexuals? or that this
is the truth which remains the same?  - J.J.
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From: bath@dw3f.ess.harris.com (Kenneth Bath)
Subject: Re:      condemnation of homosexual acts is necessary...
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 02:22:22 GMT
Reply-To: bath@dw3f.ess.harris.com (Kenneth Bath)
Organization: Harris Semiconductor, Melbourne  FL

In article <9301251521.AA20456@enet-gw.pa.dec.com>,  Greg Wolff writes:

|>
|>    Unfortunately, this turns out not to be the case.  There are many
|>    practicing Catholics who believe that homosexual acts are not
|>    intrinsically evil in and of themselves and it is ok to do them and
|>    continue to receive Communion.  These people must be informed of their
|>    error and taught what the Church teaches.
|>
|>    The Church teaches that any sexual act outside of the (possibly
|>    fertile) marital act is a grievous sin and mortal to the spiritual life
|>    of the soul.  The teaching is that these sexual acts (masturbation,
|>    homosexual acts, heterosexual acts outside of marriage, marital
|>    contraceptive intercourse, etc.) are intrinsically evil in and of
|>    themselves.  Yet there are those who teach that these things are OK
|>    depending on the situation, Situation Ethics.  There are even persons
|>    who have the title "Catholic Moral Theologian" who teach that these
|>    sinful acts are OK.
|>
|>    Thus, in this climate, we need to affirm in the public forum what the
|>    Church teaches about sexuality and that what the Church teaches is the
|>    Truth.

I couldn't agree more with these thoughts, but I see them applying to
all teachings
of the Catholic Church.  Basically, if you don't tell people what these
teachings
are, how can they be expected to understand, teach, or defend them?

When was the last time you heard a sermon condemning abortion?  Everyone
"knows" that the Church teaches its wrong.  Right?  Wrong.  If you don't tell
folks its wrong, how can you be sure they know?  (Last sermon on abortion
I heard was in October, 1991 in Aurora, IL.)

When was the last time you heard a sermon on the Precepts of the Church?
How can people be expected to attend Mass on Sundays or go to Confession
or fulfil their Easter Duty if no one tells them about it?

When was the last time you heard a sermon on why the Pope is the head
of the Church?  How about a sermon on the symbols of the Church like
the Ixthus, the Chi-Rho, the Alpha and Omega, or even the Cross itself?

There's another thread in this newsgroup that's discussing the Real Presence.
Wouldn't that make a good topic for a homily?  I never seem to hear one
on that subject.  (And I'm well travelled.  I've been to churches in all parts
of this country and in Europe.)

It seems to me that there is a great deal of "feel good" talk coming from the
pulpit and very little of substance.  Our sermon this week was given by a
lay person on the "New World Order" of Catholic schools.

Do homilists think that we in the pews are uninterested?  Or that we won't
come back?  Or that we are just too dumb to handle topics like this?

Remember, those who don't pass on their heritage are doomed to lose it.

Ken Bath
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Date:         Fri, 22 Jan 1993 17:52:46 -0500
From:         mayo@CS.UTK.EDU
Subject:      "One Bread, One Body", Jan 28

                    Thursday, January 28, 1993
                Thomas Aquinas, Priest and Doctor

Hebrews 10:19-25           Psalm 24                     Mark 4:21-25

                    THE ASSEMBLIES OF GOD

"We should not absent ourselves from the assembly, as some do." --Hebrews 10:25

When we assemble with other Christians we:

  1) "encourage one another" (Heb 10:25).
  2) "rouse each other to love and good deeds" (Heb 10:24).
  3) prepare for Jesus' final coming (see Heb 10:25).
  4) experience Jesus' presence in a special way (see Mt 18:20).
  5) pray with greater power and fruitfulness (see Mt 18:19).
  6) experience more fully the gifts of the Spirit (see I Cor 12:7).
  7) strengthen one another (Eccl 4:12).

Because the Lord works so gloriously when Christains assemble, He commands us
in His word not to absent ourselves from that assembly.  The Catholic Church
echoes this command by holding us responsible "under pain of sin" to fulfill
our Sunday and Holy Day obligations to celebrate Mass on these days.

Because it is so important for Christians to assemble, we should ask the Lord
how often we should celebrate Mass, participate in other communal prayer
services, and pray together at home as a family.  To be spiritually healthy,
Christains need to assemble several times a week at church and home.


Prayer:  Father, may I come together with other Christians, especially when
         I don't feel like it.

Promise: "Listen carefully to what you hear.  In the measure you give you
          shall receive, and more besides."  Mk 4:24

Praise:  Thomas Aquinas used his intellect for God's kingdom.
-----
From "One Bread, One Body", reproduced with permission.
 Nihil Obstat: Rev. Edward J. Gratsch
 Imprimatur:  +Most Rev. James H. Garland, V.G.
               Archdiocese of Cincinnati, October 15, 1992.
From: mjsmith@cac.washington.edu (Martha Smith )
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Re:      Re: Why is it?
Date: 25 Jan 1993 23:09:30 GMT
Organization: UW Computing
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In article <2B649AC7@postoffice.ucc.american.edu>,         Jim McIntosh <Jim@AMERICAN.EDU> writes:

|> 
|> By the way, if anyone prays the Liturgy of the Hours on a regular basis and
|> is concerned about inclusive language there is an excellent resource ("The
|> New Companion to the Breviary: A Four-Week Psalter featuring All-Inclusive
|> Language") published by the Carmelites. For more information, write to:
|> 
|>                 Psalter
|>                 Carmelite Monastery
|>                 2500 Cold Spring Road
|>                 Indianapolis, IN 46222
|> 

Liturgical Training Press in Chicago also publishes the Psalms in the new 
inclusive language version and has a separate edition with tones for the Liturgy
of the Hours
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From: ajpg1322@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Angelo J. Paguia)
Subject: Edward Schileebeecx (sp?) writings
Summary: Info on E. Schileebeecx writings
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 17:20:48 GMT
Keywords: Does anybody know E. Schileebeecx leanings ?

I just found a voluminous book written by Edward Shileebeecx entitled
"Christ" at the book store. My previous experience was when a nun
lent me a book by him that I could not understand. I know that he is
a well-known theologian from the University of Nijmegen in Holland,
but I would like to know whether his writings are 1)Catholic ? and
2) liberal ? (The Dutch church is well-known for its liberal leanings).

Can someone provide me some info, please ? I am searching for a source
on a proof against Justification by Faith and number 1 above is 
important. Any other suggestions on these sources would be well
appreciated. Thanks.

Peace,
Angelo
From: mfulsmb@uts.mcc.ac.uk (Martin Barry)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Re: ?
Date: 25 Jan 93 17:20:56 GMT
Organization: Manchester Computing Centre, Manchester, England, M13 9PL.

In article <C15y6G.M6A@acsu.buffalo.edu> v201lrxa@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (L'Angelo Misterioso) writes:
>
>	Anyone know about St. SImon Stock? I have a scapular with his
>picture on one side, and a picture of Our Lady of Mount Carmel on 
>the other side. It's sort of nagged me since I was a kid.

By some eerie coincidence, there's an article in this week's _Tablet_ on the
Carmelites, which has the answers. In short: the Carmelites started out as
hermits on Mount Carmel, given formal recognition and a 'Rule' in the
mid-thirteenth century. Around the same time the Saracens drove them away
from their original home and some settled in England with the returning
Crusaders. "Sir Richard de Grey gave them his manor house on the banks of
the river Medway in Kent, which became known as 'the Friars'. In 1247 a
church was built there, and it was the first church in the country to be
dedicated to Our Lady of the Assumption." The order gradually changed their
way of life from hermit to friar, and adopted the white cloak that gives them
the name 'whitefriars'. "The transition to being friars is much associated
with a Kentishman who became prior general, St Simon Stock. Tradition claims
him as the author of _Flos Carmeli_, flower of Carmel, which is the Marian
anthem associated with the order. Also associated with him is the scapular,
which is worn as a sign of commitment to the Carmelite tradition: it was
described by Bl Titus Brandsma, the Dutch Carmelite who died at Dachau, as
Mary's livery. Our vocation, he said, was to become _theotokoi_,
God-bearers, as Mary was." (The Tablet, Vol 247 No 7955, p122).

Lots more interesting information on the English Carmelites, including the
fact that the Marian shrine at Aylesford today was established by the first
prior after the return of the friars in 1949. "He envisaged a Marian shrine
as a great centre of prayer, maintaining that an apparition was not
necessary to make a shrine, and the crowds that come today on pilgrimage
days stand as a testimony to the truth of that insight."

Martin Barry.
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Date:         Mon, 25 Jan 1993 13:14:35 -0600
From:         Joel Neisen <joel@MSC.EDU>
Subject:      Re: The tragic tale of a moral theologian.

> smoking. When I quit 14 months ago, the net provided a satifying substitute
> for my addictive cravings. One bad habit for another, I suppose:-) -J.J.

God makes ALL things work for the good of those who are
called according to His just decree (Rom 8:28)

What more proof of miracles do we need then ?!

A suitable praise (only slightly tonque in cheek) for One Bread, One Body
is, "J.J. has quit smoking for 14 months because of his participation
in the Free Catholic Mailing List".

(My apologies to mayo@CS.UTK.EDU who blesses us with the One Bread,
One Body articles)

joel
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Date:         Thu, 21 Jan 1993 15:20:54 HST
From:         Len Howard <tas@PEGASUS.COM>
Subject:      Re: Homosexual acts
              4:38pm)

Hi Jim,  I am happy to see you reading Jack Spong's book with some
appreciation.  Once you can get by the attention getting mechanisms he
uses, there is a lot of good thought present in his books.  He really
loves the scripture aneems to me to be trying to tell us how to get
through all the colorations and distortions placed by our human nature
and see the essential truth that is contain  I found that book, and
his most recent, "Born of a Woman" to be mo edifying.

Shalom,                               Len Howard
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Date:         Wed, 27 Jan 1993 15:55:50 -0500
From:         URSIC@ASTRO.CS.HH.AB.COM
Subject:      Re: condemnation of homosexual acts is (un)necessary...

"Greg Wolff, MISG, ICS::, MSO1-1/J50" <wolff@ICS.ENET.DEC.COM> writes:
>    A chaste homosexual has taken no action that is contrary to God's law.
>    No one would be able to tell if such a person where a chaste homosexual
>    or heterosexual.
Greg, I'm missing the point, a person knows that they are homosexual whether
they have been chaste or not. They admitting it publically is how you can know.

>>Can you perhaps agree that to ban them from the military is to condemn
>>them for an action they have not even performed? - J.J.

>    No one will know if a person is a {homo|hetero}sexual unless they take
>    action and prove it to you.  What the military is banning as "unfit for
>    military service" is any person who makes provable homosexual actions.

Is just SAYING you are homosexual the action worth condemning?

>    No one is being banned for an "action they have not even performed."

Unless you say you are a chaste homosexual. Do you actually think that
if you told the recruiter that you were a chaste homosexual, that they
would allow you to enlist? - J.J.
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Date:         Tue, 26 Jan 1993 15:31:20 -0500
From:         URSIC@ASTRO.CS.HH.AB.COM
Subject:      Re: directions

"Bryan D. Boyle" <bdboyle@ERENJ.COM> writes:
>Or, in my opinion, a modernist can excuse a lot more heterodoxy because
                      ^^^^^^^^^???
>there are no absolutes....:-)
We are also clever enough to keep changing our names so as to avoid being
trapped in any formal condemnations:-) - J.J.
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Date:         Thu, 21 Jan 1993 15:05:55 -0500
From:         URSIC@ALF.CS.HH.AB.COM
Subject:      RE: The Real Presence

 "Greg Wolff writes in reply to what I wrote:
>>my belief that transubstantiation cannot be deemed "infallible"
>    The Council of Trent dogmatically defined, in an infallible statement,
>    that "transubstantiation" is the correct and necessary understanding of
>    the Real Presence.  "... let him be anathema who denies this ..."
Yikes, where'd all these frogs come from, they're hoppin all over me:-) -J.J.
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Date:         Thu, 21 Jan 1993 11:18:29 EST
From:         "Donald J. Magee" <djm@TRENT.ATT.COM>
Subject:      Deacons and their academic requirements

Just wondering if anyone knows the academic requirements for deacons
(in general).

I know an M.Div. is pretty standard for priests, 1-2 years minor
seminary (often concurrent with undergrad studies), 4 years at the major
 seminary (after undergrad studies are complete) in the NY Archdiocese..

Don
trent!djm@jolt.att.com
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