From: altheimm@nextnet.csus.edu (Murray Altheim)
Subject: Re: Ceremony Suggestions?
Organization: California State University Sacramento
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 01:20:37 GMT

Pardon me for quoting at length, but I don't want anybody to miss the more
important parts of this thread...

>> (Gil Hardwick) writes:
>> The pagan Kikuyu ritual of female circumcision by removing the clitoris
at puberty with an old razor blade or piece of bottle glass is similarly
debilitating and life destroying. It is *how* it is done, which is so
barbaric, not the religion of those practicing it.

Gil

> (Janis Maria Cortese) writes:
> I've never heard of this as pagan, but it's not just in one area,
either.  It's frighteningly widespread in areas around the Middle East
and north Africa.  Women have fled to other countries to avoid it, and
asked for political asylum -- and been denied.  If they had been black
or jewish and asked for asylum to avoid being mutilated, they would have
been accepted, IMNSHO. 

> It involves more than just ("just" indeed) removal of the clitoris.
Also, the labia majora are sliced off, and the labia minora are sewn
together with a matchstick stuck between them so the woman can pee and
bleed -- if she's lucky.  Inability to urinate or bleed is common.  She
is sliced open by her hubby on the wedding night, and lays in bed with
her legs open to keep the wound from closing on her, while he has sex
with her for several days straight, and walks around town with the
bloody knife on one shoulder.  Nine months later, again is she's lucky,
she is sliced open for birth, then sewn up and sliced, sewn up and
sliced, over and over and over.  It is quite common for women and babies
to die from prolonged labor and hemorrage; the accumulation of scar
tissue around the vagina makes it almost impossible for the woman to
dilate sufficiently to give birth safely.  Infections are rampant, and
doctors there have routinely had to cut young girls -- as young as
thirteen -- open to release pounds of black and decayed menstruum.

> Say what you want, Gil.  In my estimation, this IS barbarism, no two
> ways about it.

> Blessings,
> Janis 

In article <Bw0w3B.JGG@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk> jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin) writes:
>cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese) wrote:
>> [North African female circumcision] involves more than just ("just"
>> indeed) removal of the clitoris.  Also, the labia majora are sliced
>> off, and the labia minora are sewn together with a matchstick stuck
>> between them so the woman can pee and bleed -- if she's lucky.
>
>What you're describing here is "infibulation".  There are a lot of cultures
>that do only the milder forms of female circumcision, down to a small nick
>in the clitoris.  (This is not to say that any of them are a good idea, but
>it doesn't help to make it look like these differences don't exist).
>
>I've read one woman from East Africa pointing out that compared to what the
>world economic system is doing to millions of African women - starving them
>to death - infibulation is peanuts, and the Western feminist obsession with
>this practice is just sick hypocrisy.
>
>--  Jack Campin    room G092, Computing Science Department, Glasgow University,
>17 Lilybank Gardens, Glasgow G12 8RZ, Scotland   TEL: 041 339 8855 x6854 (work)
>INTERNET: jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk or via nsfnet-relay.ac.uk    FAX: 041 330 4913
>BANG!net: via mcsun and uknet     BITNET: via UKACRL    UUCP: jack@glasgow.uucp

I've read "one woman from East Africa"!!!  Pardon me for registering anything
but extreme shock, but unless we all just ignore Janis' statements regarding
the various mutilations forced upon millions of women as the idle rantings of
a delusionary thinker, we all must come to grips with this as fact.

And if there is ANY element of truth to it, it's hard for me to fathom the
incredible insensitivity of you, Mr. Campin. Maybe you didn't intend to make
the statement in the manner you did. Maybe you did. I'm sure I'm not the only
one here who'd like confirmation of your views.

If "the Western feminist obsession with this practice is just sick hypocrisy"
is your idea of a joke, then I'm sure your relations with women are also a
"sick hypocrisy". Using the "feminist" buzzword (as if only feminists might
be opposed to being mutilated) seems only to emphasize your callousness in
discussing this matter. It seems common to prop up some idea of a left-wing
feminist reaction whenever discussing abuse of women in cultures Western or
Eastern, as if we all as humans were born with an inherent proxy of approval
for the pain inflicted upon women.

Before I rant on any longer, I suppose I should at least give you the 
courtesy of responding, should I be way out of line. It just seems 
incomprehensible that after reading Janis' post, anybody could respond by
acting as an apologist for this kind of cruelty.

Blessings,

Murray

-- 
Murray M. Altheim      "Ils ont l'orteil de Bouc, & d'un Chevreil l'oreille,
Instructional Consultant    La corne d'un Chamois, & la face vermeille
CSU, Sacramento          Comme un rouge Croissant: & dancent toute nuict
altheimm@csus.edu       Dedans un carrefour, ou pres d'une eau qui bruict."