From: carty@vnet.ibm.com (Jeff Carty)
Subject: Re: Why I couldn't take AA & why I both
News-Software: IBM OS/2 PM RN (NR/2) v0.14 by O. Vishnepolsky and R. Rogers
Reply-To: carty@vnet.ibm.com (Jeff Carty)
Organization: IBM PSP Palo Alto, Ca.
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 92 00:52:07 GMT

In  <1309900064@igc.apc.org>  Christic Institute <christic@igc.apc.org> writes:
>
> Mark, I respect your right to feel uncomfortable when people around
> you are using the Lord's Prayer.  Prayer is a very personal thing,

Thanks.

> It's not true, however, that the text in the New Testament is a
> "specifically and exclusively Christian prayer."  I learned this
> ...
> scholars have been saying for years, namely, that the text is a
> typical prayer of the early rabbinic period and strongly resembles
> prayers found in the Talmud and other Jewish sources dating to
> same period.

I find this is very interesting, academically and as a sometime theology
student.  IMHO, church, *A, and academics are different things.

> For instance, there simply is no reference to the triune God or
> the doctrine of the Holy Trinity in the prayer....

debatable

>       did not evolve in the Christian religion until some time
> _after_ the various Gospel texts, including the Lord's Prayer,
> were assembled.

underscoring that it is only from Christianity.

> My mentor felt he could strongly identify with the Lord's Prayer
> as Jewish liturgical poetry.  He identified the following concepts
> as entirely consistent with Jewish tradition:
>
> --God is our parent: We can confidently address him in prayer.
>
> --God's name should be kept holy.
>
> --God's kingdom is coming.  (A Jewish messianic idea _borrowed_ by
> Christians.  The "second coming of Christ" is nowhere mentioned in
> the text.)

(yet the idea is present in the prayer, as you yourself just stated!)

> --God's Torah should be obeyed on earth as it is in heaven.

by everyone ?  what if I don't believe in it ?  Andy, I know *you* agree
with my right not to, and I appreciate that.  Yet, precisely as you yourself
state, the prayer lends itself (indeed, almost solicits) a different
interpretation.

> --We can ask God for our basic needs, our "daily bread."
>
> --We can ask God to forgive our sins, but we must forgive those who
> sin against us.
>
> --We can ask God to save us when we are tested, and to deliver us
> from evil.

Yes.  And other ideas like:

-- God is male.

-- God is a person, whom certain physical persons can somehow claim to
represent.

-- "Sin" is a meaningful or helpful concept (I think it is neither...I
say the reading of the LP that goes "forgive us our debts as we forgive
our debtors").

-- God *might not* forgive our "sins" unless we feel scared and play by the
supposedly divinely-written rules that some persons push.  (Another idea I
disagree with).

All of which can easily be offensive to...not all *A people...but enough
to make it not such a good thing to do in a meeting (unless the meeting
is specialized in that direction, of course).

> Most, and perhaps all of these ideas can be easily transplanted into
> other religious traditions:  They are by no means unique to Judaism
> or Christianity.  From my point of view, the Lord's Prayer is one
> of the finest _universal_ prayers--provided one believes there is a

Not if you observe Goddess/Mother religions (brutally persecuted and
misrepresented in Europe by most branches of Christianity), or Islam,
Buddhism (Zen or otherwise), Sufism, etc.  Or nothing (i.e. atheism,
agnosticism, or non-denominational theism).  Takes all kinds to make
a universe.   (3 cheers for diversity, for *assuming* that others are
different than ourselves, and liking and validating them for it !!!)

> ...If the text makes you un-
> comfortable, then you should not expose yourself to a situation
> where you are expected to say it.

Thanks for your comments!

Jeff