From: julie@cucbs.chem.columbia.edu (Julie Wright)
Newsgroups: alt.feminism,soc.men,soc.women
Subject: Re: Living in a State of Siege
Date: 20 Dec 92 18:36:42 GMT
Organization: Center for Biomolecular Simulation, Department of Chemistry,
	Columbia University

In article <1992Dec18.184824.10383@rat.csc.calpoly.edu> dgross@polyslo.csc.calpoly.edu (Dave Gross) writes:

>According to karen.van.hoek@um.cc.umich.edu:
>>This general issue -- that many or most white men don't realize how bad it is
>>to live in fear of violent assault -- is extremely painful and angering to
>>many women....  Most of all, I'd like some more sensitivity to the fact that
>>we women are living in a state of siege.

>This is the second time I have written this article.  The first
>version was deemed "far too inflammatory" for soc.feminism -- probably an
>accurate criticism.  But if the article was inflammatory, that's only because
>it burns me when I see this sort of thing.  You know, the argument that men
>don't have any idea what it's like to live in constant fear of violence.

	{ NOTE:  This version was also deemed unsuitable for soc.feminism }

I've been reading this thread in soc.feminism, and while I think the points
you make below are mostly not only valid but also _need_ to be stressed,
I don't think your post is a very fair response to what Karen's been
saying.  Her posts had to do with men that she and her friends knew saying
things like "If you're having trouble concentrating late at night, just
take a long walk," with no apparent awareness that this just didn't seem
like a reasonable option to the women they were talking to, who were much
more fearful of violence out on the streets at night than the men were.
Note that even in the quote at the beginning of your post, she said that
"many or most white men" didn't understand this fear.  She was going on
what _men_ had told her about how _they_ feel comfortable behaving.  You
are doing absolutely the right thing, IMO, to point out that many men 
_do_ feel under threat of violence, but I personally would agree that
"many...white men" don't seem to be aware of (let alone understand)
the fear women in their communities have of walking around in conditions
when they themselves would would not be afraid.  (I have to say that in
my community -- Morningside Heights in Manhattan -- men tend to be very
aware of how women feel, compared to other places I've lived; I believe
it's because it has occurred to them to think about crime more seriously
than they had before living here.)

>Feminists like these act as though they don't have any idea of the
>extent to which violence commands a man's attention and forms his upbringing.

Hell, most MEN don't seem to have any idea of this either, wouldn't you
say?  I don't mean that your points are wrong -- quite the opposite.  I
mean I agree a men's movement is necessary to point out that things we
accept as "normal" are warping men's lives unnecessarily, because most
people in our society aren't used to thinking about these questions.  
If you expect more from feminists than from the general population in
recognizing injustices of gender roles, that seems perfectly fair to me,
but I do think you may be so angry by now that you're blowing up at
people who may be missing things at times, but are open to your ideas 
and arguments when they are exposed to them.

>"We men" are surrounded by violence from our circumcision in infancy
>(no anaesthesia, thank you) to being bullied in elementary school; from trying
>out for the football team in high school to registering for the draft; from
>being several times more likely than our sisters to be murdered to watching
>boxing on television; from visiting Arlington National Cemetery to running our
>fingers along the Vietnam War Memorial.

I agree completely that most (maybe all) of these things are evidence of
serious problems (or are themselves serious problems).  However, in day-
to-day life, which is what Karen was talking about, the majority of _men_
(not boys) _I_ know are past worrying about circumcision or elementary school
bullying; did not try out for football or think of it with fondness rather
than fear; are past the age to be drafted or don't worry much about it,
according to them, though this was not as true during the Gulf War; let
the fear of murder affect their behavior far less than the fear of violent
crime affects the behavior of women in the same circumstances; don't
watch boxing on TV, or, if they do, argue vehemently that it's not a 
problem; and do not themselves have much fear of dying in a war.  Many
of these men feel far more safe and free than their female friends, and
some of them aren't very sensitive about taking that into account.  _Are_
they more safe and free? -- well, it depends on how you evaluate it,
apparently; I've seen compelling cases either way.  

>The leading cause of death for young black men is murder.  Don't try
>to tell me they need their consciousness raised about those poor women who
>can't go jogging at night.

a) Karen never argued that all men are safe from violence or that no men
fear violence.  In fact, in your quote of her above, she referred to
*white* men specifically, and even then avoided making a blanket statement.

b) This type of argument is unfair and you probably know it.  I could
just as well say "Don't tell my women friends who've been raped about those
poor boys who felt like they had to try out for football in school."
One injustice does not make another less valid, and you're comparing apples
and oranges.

>Over 90% of those killed on the job in the United States are men.
>But at least they aren't victims of sexual harassment.

See b) above.

Uh, you never explained why this was rejected from soc.feminism this time...

>[gay men are bashed, black men are lynched more than their female counter-
>parts]
>You don't think men live in fear of violence?  Think again!  I don't 
>want to hear that anymore!  

Doesn't it seem to you that a _large_ subset of men lives in less fear of
violence than women of the same economic status, age, neighborhoods, etc.
feel?  This is not meant to be a flame; this really is my impression, and
it's what Karen seemed to be talking about.  Some have argued that women
are at no greater risk than men, but just _think_ they are, though I believe
that women live much more cautiously to achieve the same safety men have,
and if women acted like men do they'd be in more danger.  (That's a quick
summary; the original thread's on soc.feminism.)  

>What we are as men, our masculinity, our sex
>role is formed and enforced by violence.
>If a man is afraid to walk to his car at night, he does it anyway.
>If he asks for an escort he's a "faggot" and is liable to be beat up for that.
>If he gets assaulted on the way to the car, he just stays quiet about it
>because BOYS DON'T CRY, dammit, and what?  Didn't you fight back?  What a
>wimp.

But how can we know about these fears if men won't tell us?  Am I wrong
to believe the men I know when they say they feel safe walking home at
3 at night, but they don't think I should?  I can't offer any evidence
to them that they're wrong to feel that way; quite the contrary, around
here.  

I don't know; maybe they're lying because they're afraid to admit their
fears to me or to themselves.  (I'm not being sarcastic.)  If you believe
this, what do you think I can do about it without being patronizing?  I
can hardly say, "I know you're afraid and you just won't admit it," 
because I _don't_ *know* any such thing.  I _have_ said at times, "I think
you should be more careful" to men, and I've _never_ said or implied,
"Oh, you're silly to be afraid."  But they are adult human beings and I
tend to accept their descriptions of their own lives and feelings.  
I expect them to do the same for me when I say, "I'm going to call the
Escort Service to walk me home because I've been followed before at
this time of night."  When you, Dave, say you feel your life is constrained
by violence, I believe you feel that way, but until I hear the men around
me expressing these sorts of thoughts and see them calling the Escort
Service at night or going home early so they'll be safe, I'll assume they
feel safer than I do.  And when they aren't followed or threatened the
way I am, I have to assume they're safer behaving the same way I do --
which is exactly what they conclude, too.

---Julie
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