HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: hackborn@augustana.ab.ca (WILLIAM W. HACKBORN)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai
Subject: Inclusive language
Date: 23 Jan 93 20:01:06 GMT
Article-I.D.: qiclab.1993Jan25.094014.23104
Organization: Augustana University College, Camrose, Alberta

I'm a relatively new Baha'i with questions about *inclusive language*
in Baha'i writings. As many of you probably know, *inclusive language*
is a big issue in liberal Christian circles these days. Usually, the
term refers to the gender-inclusiveness of religious language. For
example, in a Christian context, do hymns mention only men (e.g. *Good
Christian Men Rejoice*) or do they mention the other half of the human
race? In a broader context, *inclusive language* might also address
the kind of images we use for God. For example, is the pronoun for God
always *He*; is God only referred to in a paternal way, as in
*Father*?

Let me number my questions for easy reference:

1. Usually in English translations of Baha'i scripture, God is refer
   English has no gender-inclusive personal pronoun as Arabic and
   Persian do, and that in the original document a gender-inclusive
   pronoun was used. Is this true?

2. In the writings of the Guardian, Shoghi Effendi, the whole of
   humanity is usually referred to as *mankind*. This, of course, is
   not surprising since he was writing at a time before
   gender-appropriateness became much of an issue, and the word
   *mankind* was broadly accepted as referring to the entire human
   race. However, in many recent Baha'i publications, the term
   *mankind* is still often used to denote all of humanity, although
   the terms *peoples* and *humanity* are used frequently as well. My
   personal feeling is that the term *mankind* should not be used
   anymore because it is no longer broadly seen as encompassing all
   human beings. I'm curious whether other Baha'is agree with me on
   this, or whether you feel I'm making an issue out of a non-issue or
   being too influenced by popular culture.

3. In the *Hidden Words*, a work which I find very moving and I dearly
   love, Baha'u'llah usually addresses the reader as *son*, as in *O
   Son of Spirit*; He never addresses the reader as *daughter* though
   He sometimes uses *peoples*. The reason for this could simply be
   due to the problems of rendering Arabic and Persian into English,
   but I doubt it. Hence, since I believe Baha'u'llah was not bound by
   the limitations of His society or His times, I feel He must have
   had a reason for doing this that I don't understand. Do any of you
   other Baha'is have any intuitions as to why He may have written
   this way? I'm also curious whether any women Baha'is feel
   difficulty in seeing parts of the *Hidden Words* as being addressed
   to them too (although I'm certain that, in spite of the apparent
   gender of the addressee, all passages in the *Hidden Words* apply
   equally well to both sexes).

I look forward to your responses.

Sincerely,

Bill Hackborn,
Augustana University College, Camrose, AB, Canada, T4V 2R3
E-Mail: HACKBORN@AUGUSTANA.AB.CA
Date: 24 Jan 93 10:14:54
Distribution: world
Followup-To: soc.religion.bahai
From: pamiri@uci.edu (Peter Amiri)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Subject: Collaboration requested on a project

Allah 'u' Abha friends,

I am currently considering producing a muti-media program that covers
the Baha'i Faith, its teachings and history. A sort of electronic
version of THE BAHA'IS for those of you who are familiar with that
publication. I am in the early thinking/planning stages right now and
would like to get early feedback as to what others think of such a
project.

The project would be developed on the Macintosh but could be run on a
Macintosh as well as Windows machines in the finished form. I plan to
use music, pictures, naration, and possibly video. The interface would
be a simple inteactive interface that would allow users to easily
navigate through the program at will. I am planning on distributing it
on CD-ROM if possible.

My first question is would others find this useful?  Do you have any
suggestions on what should be covered in the program?  Know of a good
source for video and photographs?

Any other comments or suggestions welcomed.
___________________________________________________________________________
Peter Amiri                                                  PAMIRI@UCI.EDU

Programmer Analyst               
Office of Academic Affairs          There is only one race, the human race.

University of California, Irvine                               Baha'i Faith
Date: 24 Jan 93 10:13:42
Distribution: world
From: Babak Mohajerin <B.MOHAJERIN@qut.edu.au>
Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai
Organization: <none>
Subject: From the Writings of Baha'u'llah

Reading for:
Thursday 15 Sharaf {Honor} 149, 14 Jan, 1993

        The time fore-ordained unto the people and kindreds
        of the earth is now come. The promises of God, as
        recorded in the holy Scriptures, have all been
        fulfilled. Out of Zion hath gone forth the Law of
        God, and Jerusalem, and the hills and land thereof,
        are filled with the glory of His revelation. Happy
        is the man that pondereth in his heart that which
        hath been revealed in the Books of God, the Help in
        Peril, the Self-Subsisting. Meditate upon this, O Ye
        beloved of God, and let your ears be attentive unto
        His Word, so that ye may, by His grace and mercy,
        drink your fill from the crystal waters of constancy,
        and become as steadfast and immovable as the mountain
        in His cause.
                                        Baha'u'llah

                [The proclamation of Baha'u'llah, page 111]

Babak M.
B.MOHAJERIN@qut.edu.au
From: maton@herald.usask.ca (Terry Maton)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai
Subject: From the Baha'i Writings
Date: 22 Jan 93 15:10:46 GMT
Article-I.D.: qiclab.1993Jan25.095130.24471
Organization: SCN Research/Qic Laboratories of Tigard, Oregon.

Divine justice demands that the rights of both sexes should
be equally respected since neither is superior to the other
in the eyes of Heaven.  Dignity before God depends not on
sex, but on purity and luminosity of heart.  Human virtues 
belong equally to all!

Abdu'l-Baha, Paris Talks, p.162

---
Terry Maton
University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Canada

INTERNET:   maton@sask.usask.ca   or   maton@herald.usask.ca
FREENET:    ap322@cleveland.freenet.edu

  "The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens" -- Baha'u'llah
From: maton@herald.usask.ca (Terry Maton)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai
Subject: From the Baha'i Writings
Date: 15 Jan 93 15:02:10 GMT
Article-I.D.: qiclab.1993Jan25.094018.23163
Organization: -

O BRETHREN!

Be forbearing one with another and set not your
affections on things below. Pride not yourselves
in your glory, and be not ashamed of abasement.
By My beauty! I have created all things from dust,
and to dust will I return them again.

The Hidden Words of Baha'u'llah, #48 from the Persian

---
Terry Maton
University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Canada

INTERNET:   maton@sask.usask.ca   or   maton@herald.usask.ca
FREENET:    ap322@cleveland.freenet.edu

  "The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens" -- Baha'u'llah
Date: 24 Jan 93 10:12:44
Distribution: world
From: hormoz@austlcm.sps.mot.com (hormoz sayhoon/rpv8)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai
Organization: <none>
Subject: Why was there no Guardian after Shoghi Effendi?

[Re-formatted, gave a new subject line, corrected some spelling--mmt]

I am sending to see if the some one could please [say] where in the
[Baha'i] Writings I could find [out] about why the Baha'i Faith
stopped after Shoghi Effendi.

[I believe the poster's intent is to ask why there was not a Guardian
after Shoghi Effendi--mmt]

There has been a quotation about why it did not have any one to pass
the Faith after him.

I would like some to hear some talks about this please.

Hormoz Sayhoon
hormoz@austlcm.sps.mot.com
Date: 26 Jan 93 22:03:39
Distribution: world
From: 8809787l@levels.unisa.edu.au
Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai
Organization: University of South Australia
Subject: Is there a ftp site for the Bahai's ? 

[Corrected some spelling--mmt]

Dear Friends

I would like to know if a ftp site exists on the internet for The
Baha'i Faith.  If you could provide me with any information please
email me.

With Highest Regards
Payam Pourebik

University Of South Australia
School of Electronic Engineering



Newsgroups: soc.religion.quaker
From: samk@microsoft.com (Sam Kho)
Subject: Re: quakerism, Christianity, etc
Date: 26 Jan 93 20:33:47 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corporation
Distribution: na

>On the other hand I do feel moved to make a comment on the Biblical
>quotes of the form:
>
>"I am the light, and the truth, and the Way", "No man cometh unto the Father
>but by me", etc. where Jesus refers to Himself as a verb, or a method, or
>a style of action. Clearly (to me)  He must mean by acting like Him and/or 
>following His teachings; otherwise the sentences just plain don't make
>grammatical sense.
>

>-------
>Marc Mengel
>mengel@fnal.fnal.gov

the quote is 

	"I am the way, the truth, and the life"

not light, as u quote. 

the way, the truth, and the life are all being used as NOUNS, not verbs!

	"No man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

still a NOUN!  e.g.:

	Q: how do i go to seattle from redmond?
	A: by 520 or I-90.

therefore:

	Q: How do I come to God the Father?
	A: by Jesus.

  - sam -
From: harwood@umiacs.umd.edu (David Harwood)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.quaker
Subject: Re: Barclay
Keywords: Barclay
Date: 28 Jan 93 17:16:30 GMT
Distribution: soc
Organization: UMIACS, University of Maryland, College Park, MD 20742

In article <30870@castle.ed.ac.uk> ewnt05@castle.ed.ac.uk (D Mealand) writes:
>
>
>Robert Barclay 1648-90 a Scottish Quaker wrote a famous apology i.e. defence of
>Quaker belief and practice as against other forms of belief and practice.
>It is still well worth reading: clear to the point, and very informative.
>Though I think the full edition is not in print, I recently bought a
>paperback of extracts from it here in the U.K.
>
\\\\\\\

I hope _Barclay's Apology in Modern English_ is still available

at Friends bookstores, eg in Philadelpia. Perhaps someone else can

provide addresses and check availability. This version is highly

recommended, a complete text in modern English. The whole book is

remarkable, and the only theological statement of early Friends,

who were persecuted very harshly for their unorthodox Christian faith.

(At one time, half of all English Quakers of the first decade were

imprisoned. (Mainly under the Quaker and Conventicle Acts, which

proscribed assembly and speech by Friends (and other Protestants later).)

Many people do not realize that our American first admendment owes most

of all to the two Quaker states and pre-Federal legislatures, which

passed the first laws on earth calling for freedom of religion, freedom

of speech, and freedom of assembly - exactly teh provisions of the

Federal Constitution's first admendment. These were exaclty the things

denied to Friends under teh Quaker and subsequent Conventicle Acts,

which were used by the English state to persecute them first of all,

and then other Protestant (and Catholic) members.



Barclay, a trained Christian theologian, wrote his _Apology_ to

explaing that Quaker view were true Christianity. The books proper

original name is _Apology for the True Christian Faith_, although many

ignore this longer name today. (Even Stephen F Austin's wife brought

a half dozen books to Texas from the East with her, as Texas was founded:

one of these was Barclay's _Apology_, I happento know.)



The Encyclopedia Catholica notes the extraordinary, and little known,
influence of Friends in world history. (So are they remarked about by
teh great English historian Arnold Toynbee - who regrets that modern
Quakers have become so materialistic and worldly.)

D.H.
From: hankins@cs.swarthmore.edu (Luke Hankins)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.quaker
Subject: Re: The first flame war
Date: 22 Jan 93 01:48:06 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Swarthmore College

cbarr@coyote.sw.stratus.com (Chris Barr) writes:
>nelson@crynwr.com (Russell Nelson) writes:

RN>...  The Quaker religion,
RN>with its utter lack of rituals, creeds, and other distractions, puts
RN>you on the spot: believe or be bored!

CB>Well put.  

	Hurm...  I've been attending for 10+ years and have yet to be bored,
despite being of questionable faith.  My thoughts during meeting are seldom
religious and often petty, but the opportunity to be alone with other people
is valuable to me.  I guess believing in the silence is enough...

		-luke
-- 
______________________________________________________________________________
Luke Hankins hankins@cs.swarthmore.edu |"Le coeur a ses raisons que la raison
for(MyAge=0;!Dead;EnjoyLife);          |   ne connait point" -Blaise Pascal
While not (EndOfLife) do Havefun(me);  |"...stay sane inside insanity..." -RHPS
From: ericw@ucssun1.sdsu.edu.sdsu.edu (B R E W M A S T E R)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.quaker
Subject: 3
Date: 28 Jan 1993 05:39:15 GMT
Organization: San Diego State University Computing Services
NNTP-Posting-Host: ucssun1.sdsu.edu
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
From: norm@maps.gsg.dec.com (Norm Saunders @COP 301/918-5173 DTN 339-5173)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.quaker
Subject: Re: Quakers, Christianity,...
Date: 26 Jan 93 18:13:11 GMT
Reply-To: norm@maps.gsg.dec.com
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation


Early Friends had this to say about the primacy of spirit and the dangers of words:

    
    	Dearly beloved Friends, these things we do not lay upon you as a
    rule or form to walk by, but that all, with the measure of light which
    is pure and holy may be guided; and so in the Light walking and
    abiding, these things my be fulfilled in the Spirit, not from the
    letter, for the letter killeth, but the Spirit giveth life.
    
    				The [Quaker] Elders at Balby: 1656 


Norm Saunders
norm@gsg.dec.com
From: ebenami@igc.apc.org (Etan Ben-Ami)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.quaker
Subject: Re: Some questions about Quakerism
Date: 21 Jan 93 05:31:00 GMT
Nf-ID: #R:727157422snx@crynwr.com:1781426314:cdp:1744600072:000:1332
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!ebenami    Jan 20 21:31:00 1993


     With regard to the existence of Jewish Friends, there are
quite a number of us, especially in the New York City area.  Also,
Jewish Friends have as wide a variety of beliefs as any other
group of Friends.  I wouldn't presume to speak for anyone but
myself.
     In terms of theology, I don't find it difficult to be a
Jewish Friend.  In my experience, most Friends who describe
themselves as Christian or Christ-centered believe in the Nicene
Creed that has often been used to define Christianity: that Christ
was the son of G-d born of a virgin; that he died on the cross to
atone for the sins of mankind; and that he rose from the grave
three days later.  These defining statements come from the time of
the organization of the church.  They state belief in miracles,
but have little to do with the preaching of Jesus.  As it is
handed down to us, doubtless with some inaccuracies, that
preaching is dear to me.  While it may not be essential to
Quakerism, it certainly is a gift.  Historically, I believe it was
an unheeded correction and an attempted revitalization of Judaism.
     For me, the question isn't whether I believe in the miracle
of Christ, but what would I have done had it been mine to hear his
words.  I think you might find many Friends with Christian
backgrounds who share this position.

-- Etan Ben-Ami
From: phz@cadence.com (Pete Zakel)
Subject: Re: The first flame war
Organization: Cadence Design Systems, Inc.
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 06:44:56 GMT

In article <1jfbcuINN2u9@transfer.stratus.com> cbarr@coyote.sw.stratus.com (Chris Barr) writes:
>Net protocol calls for similar
>consideration, especially given the increasingly enormous bandwith 
>consumed by a posting.  For example, have these 'Inner Light'
>posters let their postings sit for a day & re-read them before
>posting to the net?

Well -- not me.  If I did this I would NEVER post, and I suspect neither would
anyone else except for a few people and then net traffic would dwindle to a
minimum of well-thought-out posts, most people would stop reading and the net
would die a slow, noble death.

But don't worry -- that will *never* happen (at least not in that manner).

I *do* try to think out my posts sufficiently before posting, and many times
have aborted a post partway through after deciding I didn't really have
anything meaningful to contribute (but at other times, on other newsgroups I
have posted anyway -- and sometimes petulantly or flamishly or stupidly... I
am human, after all).

-Pete Zakel
 (phz@cadence.com or ..!uunet!cadence!phz)

The man who is too old to learn was probably always too old to learn.

					-Henry Haskins
Newsgroups: soc.religion.quaker
From: nickh@CS.CMU.EDU (Nick Haines)
Subject: Re: quakerism, Christianity, etc
Originator: nickh@SNOW.FOX.CS.CMU.EDU
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon University
	<1878@tekgen.bv.tek.com>
Distribution: na
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 15:56:51 GMT

Patrick Logan writes:

   Sam Kho writes:

   > the historical Christ said:
   >
   >I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, BUT
   >by me.  (John 14:6, emphasis mine)

   Isn't it futile to think that everyone interprets this the same way? These
   are just words, and I don't believe they were ever spoken by the historical
   Jesus.

But _why_ do you believe that? Do you have solid textual evidence for
it, or has it been revealed to you by your inner light, or is it
merely convenient to your universalist beliefs?

That line and others like it have as much textual reliability as most
of the sayings of Jesus. All we have of `the historical Jesus' is what
is preserved in the gospels. If you believe in the historical
existence of Jesus, if you see him as any sort of spiritual guide or
leader, it is primarily because of his preserved sayings. This is one
of them. It is not historically or spiritually sound to pick and
choose (except where there is good textual evidence for such choice).

Nick Haines nickh@cmu.edu
From: noonan@tolkin.enet.dec.com (Enoperiod)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.quaker
Subject: Re: Inner Light
Date: 21 Jan 93 18:01:58 GMT
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation


In article <63375@mimsy.umd.edu>, harwood@umiacs.umd.edu (David Harwood) writes...
> 
|>But as much as I might agree with Mike intellectually, I do not recognize
|>the spirit of what he says: he seems to consider the testimony of the
|>Gospels, and Paul and all the other apostles, and of all the early and
|>modern Friends, among other Christians, concerning Jesus and the Light
|>of Christ to be a misinformed and dogmatic "superimposition" on his 
|>own preferred notion of true religion, modern 'enlightened' Quakerism, 
|>which is to take the name from early Friends who were all faithful 
|>followers of Christ and of the Gospels.

> 
|>(I tell you why I think it is important to have faith in Christ: in my
|>experience, it is those who have faith and profound love of Christ, who
|>are most committed to give their lives as missionaries of all kinds for
|>others. It is their love and faith and hope (as Paul says so well) which
|>motivates them. This is not to say that other intellectual and conscientious
|>persons cannot be charitable, but I have known very many people of all
|>kinds (from all over the world; and not only my academic associates), and
|>the most extraordinary in helping others, not occasionally, but throughout
|>every day of their lives, are faithful Christians, very largely. And they
|>inspire others because of their great love, which they have in Christ.
|>No one's love is motivated by religious intellectualism cum meditation,
|>liberal social criticism and political agendas (not that these are all wrong).)
|> 
|>D.H.
|> 

         I must tell you, I find this sort of amusing.  In a sad way. 
         Knowing Mike V. as I do, I have always found him to be one of
         the people most dedicated to the teachings of Jesus.  I know
         he believes strongly in the Sermon on the Mount, and tries
         hard to live his life according to it.  

         When I met him, he was giving up much of his spare time
         volunteering at a food bank, and working with other such
         organizations.

         He is constanly working to lead people to non-violence, and I
         know of at least one person who has stated that Mike's
         discourse on this subject swayed him to a belief in
         non-violence.

         To me, these are qualities of the true Friend.  I don't
         believe that a belief in the Trinity is necessary to believe
         in the importance of living one's life in accordance with the
         teachings of Jesus.

         Oh, and I *do* believe in the Trinity, and that Jesus Christ
         is a manifestation of God.


         .sigless E

         noonan@tolkin.ENET.DEC.COM
Newsgroups: soc.religion.quaker
Subject: Re: Inner Light
From: <SECBH@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Date: Saturday, 23 Jan 1993 23:16:17 EST
Organization: City University of New York/ University Computer Center

One of the most harmful effects of clinging to notions, whether in the
seventeenth century or the twentieth, is that it seems inevitably to
lead us to that position where we feel justified in scorning the other
because he is not similarly afflicted.  Perhaps when our light has an
Inquisitiorial intensity it might best be kept within to do its most
appropriate work.

Jack Carroll
From: wagner@cs.unc.edu (Michael Wagner)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.quaker
Subject: Re: quakerism, Christianity, etc
Date: 28 Jan 1993 13:47:05 -0500
Organization: The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
Distribution: na
NNTP-Posting-Host: paganini.cs.unc.edu

>later on (in the book of Hebrews) it is mentioned that when Christ died and 
>descended into hell He preached the gospel to the dead!  


Can you cite the chapter and verse?  I'd like to read this.  I'm
pretty new to Bible reading (I read the NT once, got not a whole
lot out of it, except for James; then I started in on the OT,
and I think I'm getting more out of that now.  I've just
started Ezekiel).

Thanks,

Mike
-- 
.......................................................
michael paul wagner
wagner@hatteras.cs.unc.edu		ahlan wa sahlan
.......................................................
From: jimc@tekcae.cax.tek.com (Jim Carden)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.quaker
Subject: Re: quakerism, Christianity, etc
Date: 23 Jan 93 23:03:02 GMT
Article-I.D.: tekgen.1878
Distribution: na
Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Beaverton,  OR.

[[** Posted for Patrick Logan, patl@goldfish.mitron.tek.com **]]

In article <1993Jan23.130709.1007@microsoft.com> samk@microsoft.com (Sam Kho) writes:
>>The spirituality of Christ
>>is available to everyone.  Many paths lead to the light, and they don't all
>
>really?  the historical Christ said:
>
>I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, BUT
>by me.  (John 14:6, emphasis mine)

Isn't it futile to think that everyone interprets this the same way? These
are just words, and I don't believe they were ever spoken by the historical
Jesus. That's not to say they don't have meaning to me. They do, but they
don't seem to mean the same thing to me as they do to Sam Kho. And who knows
for sure what they meant to the author of John?

This is evidence of what I like about the Quaker tradition. By and large it is
not based on an attempt to agree to anything based on dogma or creeds. There
is no litmus test or hierarchical organization imposing its ways on any group
that congregates as "Quakers". The Quaker meetings I am most drawn to are those
attempting to see the light by combining that part of the spectrum each member
brings together, each member being willing to test the "Truth" of their light
by combining it with the others.

The only other thing I can say is "Quaker Newsgroup" is certainly an oxymoron.
--
Patrick Logan, patl@goldfish.mitron.tek.com
Newsgroups: soc.religion.quaker