Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: LDS: Anthropomorphic God
From: <HISWJH@BYUVM.BITNET>
Date: Sunday, 27 Sep 1992 11:14:44 MDT
Distribution: na
Organization: Brigham Young University


Are LDS non-Christians because we believe in an
anthropomorphic god?

What are the official LDS view on the matter?

D&C 129:1 There are two kinds of beings in heaven, namely:
Angels, who are resurrected personages, having bodies of flesh
and bonesQ  2 For instance, Jesus said: Handle me and see, for
a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.  3
Secondly: the spirits of just men made perfect, they who are
not resurrected, but inherit the same glory.

D&C 130:22 The Father has a body of flesh and bones as
tangible as manUs; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a
body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it
not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us.

Now the anti-Mormons have claimed that this directly
contradicts two passages in the New Testament:

John 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true
worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for
the Father seeketh such to worship him.  24 God [is] a Spirit
(pneuma ho theos): and they that worship him must worship
[him] in spirit and in truth.

Lk. 24:39 See my hands and feet, for it is me: touch me, and
see; for a spirit [pneuma] does not have flesh and bones, as you
see I have.


There are five levels of response to this false accusation.


1.  The LDS believe that "the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh
and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy
Ghost could not dwell in us." (D&C 130:22)  (Note that when the
anti-Mormons quoted this passage they left out the second
half, in a clear attempt at distorting what the LDS really
believe.)  Therefore, since the Holy Ghost is God, and God the
Holy Ghost is a Spirit, and we believe that God is a spirit.
Since in Lk 24:39 the resurrected Christ tells us that he had a
body of "flesh and bones" we must conclude that it is not
inherently heretical for God the Son to have a body.  The only
dispute is about the Father.  Does he have a body?


2.  Although the Bible teaches that God is a Spirit, does it
mean that God is *only* a spirit?  The NT also tells us that:

1 Jn. 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God;
and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.  8 He
that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

Heb. 12:29 For our God [is] a consuming fire.

Thus, using anti-Mormon "methods," can we conclude that God
is only love, or only a fire?  Not at all.  Why then must we
conclude that God is *only* a spirit.

Mormons believe that God is also a spirit in the sense that all
corporeal beings, including man and God, have a spiritual being
(called a spirit) which is incarnate in the material form (Alma
11:43-45).  Furthermore, the LDS believe that all "spirit" is in
fact a type of matter:

D&C 131:7 There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All
spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be
discerned by purer eyes;  8 We cannot see it; but when our
bodies are purified we shall see that it is all matter.

Thus, God's body of "flesh and bone" may in fact be also a
"spirit" body in the sense that it is "more fine or pure" than
human mortal bodies.  Therefore, there are several ways in
which LDS theology conforms with John 4:24.


3.  The NT teaches us that Christ is the exact image of the
Father:

Jn. 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with
you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen
me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou [then], Shew us
the Father?

2 Cor. 4:4 In whom [unbelievers] the god of this world has
blinded the minds of the unbelievers, lest the light of the
glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God (hos estin
eikwn tou theou), should shine upon them.

Heb. 1:2 [God] in these last days has spoken unto us by [His]
Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, by whom also he
made the worlds;  3 Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and
the express image of his person [xarakter tes hupostasews
autou] ...

If these passages are true, and the Son has a body of flesh and
bone, it is certainly possible to conclude that the Father may
also have a body of flesh and bone.


4.  The Bible has many passages which strongly imply that God
looks just like a human being:

Gen 1:27 So God created man in his image [bi-tzalm-u], in the
image of God [bi-tzelem elohim] created he him; male and
female created he them. (cf. Gen. 9:6)

That this has reference to physical form can be confirmed by
Gen. 5 which uses the exact words to describe Adam's
relationship to Seth's form as the text uses to describe Adam's
relationship to God's form:

Gen 5:1 This [is] the book of the generations of Adam. In the
day that God created man, in the likeness of God [bi-demut
elohim] made he him;  2 Male and female created he them; and
blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when
they were created.  3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty
years, and begat [a son] in his own likeness [bi-demut-u], after
his image [ki-tzalm-u]; and called his name Seth:

Furthermore, Jacob saw a figure which he thought was a man.
He wrestled with the man, but then figured out it was actually
God Himself!

Gen 32:24 And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man
with him until the breaking of the day.  25 And when he saw
that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his
thigh; and the hollow of JacobUs thigh was out of joint, as he
wrestled with him.  26 And he said, Let me go, for the day
breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless
me.  27 And he said unto him, What [is] thy name? And he said,
Jacob.  28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob,
but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with
men, and hast prevailed.  29 And Jacob asked [him], and said,
Tell [me], I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore [is] it
[that] thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there.
30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have
seen God face to face [penim il penim], and my life is
preserved.

Jacob claims to have seen God face to face.  So does Moses:

Ex. 33:11 And YHWH spoke to Moses face to face [penim il
penim], as a man speaks to his friend.

Furthermore, Moses on one occasion saw God's back:

Ex. 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there
shall no man see me, and live.  21 And the LORD said, Behold,
[there is] a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:  22
And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I
will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my
hand while I pass by:  23 And I will take away mine hand, and
thou shalt see my backside: but my face shall not be seen.

How can Moses have seen God's face, back, or be covered by his
hand, if God does not have some type of physical form?

The NT also confirms this interpretation:

James 3:8 For no man can control his tongue; [it is] an unruly
evil, full of deadly poison.  9 With it we bless the Lord and
Father; and with it we curse men, who are made after the
similitude of God [kath homoiwsin thou gegonotas].

The NT also teaches that God the Father has a "face," can sit on
a throne,a nd will be "seen" by humans:

Rev. 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear
as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the
river, [was there] the tree of life, which bare twelve [manner
of] fruits, [and] yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of
the tree [were] for the healing of the nations.  3 And there
shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb
shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:  4 And they
shall see his face; and his name [shall be] in their foreheads.

Many other related passages could be presented.  These are
sufficient to show that the Bible clearly describes God in
anthropomorphic terms.


5.  Now I am well aware that the traditional interpretation of
this topic is that the anthropomorphic passages in the Bible
are allegorical.  However, this line of interpretation arose in
the Alexandrian School, and was an attempt to have Biblical
metaphysics conform with Neoplatonic metaphysics.
Historically, the allegorizing school relates to attempts by
pagan philosophers to allegorize some of the more immoral
behavior of the Greek gods.  (see R. Lamberton, _Homer the
Theologian_, (UC Berkeley, 1986)).  My point here is that many
early Christians were anthropomorphists, just like Mormons.
"ordinary Christians for at least the first three centuries of
the current era commonly (and perhaps generally) believed God
to be corporeal.  The belief was abandoned (and then only
gradually) as Neoplatonism became more and more entrenched
as the dominant world view of Christian thinkers."  (David L.
Paulsen, "Early Christian Belief in a Corporeal Deity: Origen
and Augustine as Reluctant Witnesses." Harvard Theological
Review, 83 (1990) 105-116, quote on p. 105).


Thus, even if Mormons are wrong in their interpretation of the
Father being corporeal, it is neither non-Biblical, nor non-
Christian.  Indeed, an objective observer would have to
conclude that the LDS interpretation is, in fact, closer to the
literal sense of the Bible than traditional interpretations.

Note that although I only have the time and opportunity to do
this for one topic, similar explanations could be given for all
the other so-called differences between Biblical teaching and
LDS ideas presented by the anti-Mormons.
Xref: sparky talk.religion.misc:17612 alt.atheism:18351