X-Vmsmail-To: HELLAS
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.hellas
Date:         Mon, 23 Nov 1992 16:56:37 -0700
Reply-To:     DIONYSHS@PHYAST.LA.ASU.EDU
From:         DIONYSHS@PHYAST.LA.ASU.EDU
Subject:      MAKEDONIA, pali. Dialogos.
Comments: To: hellas@brownvm.brown.edu

        Paidia, geia xara se olous.

        Sas zhtw sugnwmh prokatabolika pou 9a sa kourasw
pali anaforika me th Makedonia. Phra ena endiaferon mail,
kai to xarakthrizw endiaferon gia 2 logous:
   1) mou brhke kapoia grammatika la8h sto aggliko
keimeno pou dhmosieusa gia th Makedonia, kai
   2) exoume, opws blepw, entelws diaforetikes apopseis.
        Paroti o apostoleus, Dhmhtrhs Dhmhtrogiannhs, mou
zhthse na apanthsw me proswpiko, stelnw ta sxolia tou kai
thn apanthsh mou sthn .hellas., dioti mou edwse thn
eukairia na dhlwsw kat'auto ton tropo 3eka8ara tis
apopseis mou kai na pros8esw kai merika stoixeia.
        Elpizw na eimai, stis apanthseis mou, safhs, dioti
nai men o dialogos einai kalos, alla den dia8etw to xrono
na e3akolou8hsw th suzhthsh.

        Dionyshs Mintzopoulos.
__________________________________________________________

From:   SMTP%"DDIMITRI@lampf.lanl.gov" 22-NOV-1992 21:27:49.92
To:     dionyshs@phyast.la.asu.edu
CC:
Subj:   Peri macedonia2 sholia...

Date:    Sun, 22 Nov 1992 21:31:05 -0700 (MST)
From:    DDIMITRI@lampf.lanl.gov (Dimitri Dimitroyannis, Los Alamos National
 Lab)
Message-Id: <921122213105.23001a6e@lampf.lanl.gov>
Subject: Peri macedonia2 sholia...
To:      dionyshs@phyast.la.asu.edu
X-Vmsmail-To: SMTP%"dionyshs@phyast.la.asu.edu"


 >Dionisi Mintjopoule,

>Kala ekanes ke egrapse to kimenaki macedonia2. Eleftheri hora ine edo
>ke oti theli grafi kanis ( se antidiastoli, veveos, me ti mitropolitiki
>ellada. Eho emergency action tilegrafimata tis Diethnus Amnistias, ean
>endiaferese gia leptomeries)

     omologw oti me mperdepses ligo. Ennoeis oti t'an9rwpina
dikaiwmata parabiazontai sthn Ellada? Milhsa egw gia parabiaseis
an8rwpinwn dikaiwmatwn apo kanena? Se ti anaferesai akribws?
Den isxyrizomai oti h ellada einai paradeisos,
 anti8etws suxna me plhgwnei polu.
Alla t'an8rwpina dikaiwmata sthn Ellada den parabiazontai
perissotero ap'oti sth Gallia, as poume.

>Na blekis ti pedariodi istoria ton anagnostikon me Istoria, ke na grafis
  -mplekeis-^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 Me sygxwreis, den se katalaba... ti akribws einai paidariwdhs
(kai oxi pedariodis) istoria? Oi 8ysies twn Ellhnwn? Giati, mhpws
den xu8hke to aima tous? O Kwnstantinos Tsatsos eixe pei "se auta
ta xwmata pou patoume ektis8hke h xwra mas''. Einai mhpws psema?

>sta aglika me profani skopo na diavasti to kimeno apo mi ellines
>eh, ine astio. Ase tora gia ta lathi sti xeni glosa, afta diorthononte.
    ^^^^^^^^^^

 Exei hdh diabastei. Gia ta la8h exeis dikio, ftaiei pou grafw polu
grhgora kai den 3odeuw xrono se typografikes dior8wseis. Zhtw sygnwmh.

>
>Distihos to provlima me afti tin nea fabrika peri onomasias enos ikopedu
            ^^^^^^^^^               ^^^^^^^^^       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
            ^^^^^^^^^          xm.. to neo sxhma?   !aaa... etsi... ena
            ^^^^^^^^^                                 oikopedo aplws...
                                                    Lupamai, oi apopseis
                                                    mas diaferoun.

>vriskete exisu sta grafia ton politikantidon sti athina oso ke sta termatika
       ^^^^           ^^^^^^^^                 ^^^^^
       -ai-           -feia-
>ana tin ifilio.
         ^^^^^^^
        -ufhlio-

    Ma, poio einai to problhma sto opoio anaferesai? Mporeis na gineis
    pio safhs? euxaristw.

>Ean endiaferese gia peretero sizitisi, parakalo prosopiko minima,

>--dimitris dimitroyannis
>  los alamos
 _______________________________________________
> Dionisi Mintjopoule,

Kala ekanes ke egrapse to kimenaki macedonia2. Eleftheri hora ine edo
ke oti theli grafi kanis ( se antidiastoli, veveos, me ti mitropolitiki
ellada. Eho emergency action tilegrafimata tis Diethnus Amnistias, ean
endiaferese gia leptomeries)

Na blekis ti pedariodi istoria ton anagnostikon me Istoria, ke na grafis
sta aglika me profani skopo na diavasti to kimeno apo mi ellines
eh, ine astio. Ase tora gia ta lathi sti xeni glosa, afta diorthononte.

Distihos to provlima me afti tin nea fabrika peri onomasias enos ikopedu
vriskete exisu sta grafia ton politikantidon sti athina oso ke sta termatika
ana tin ifilio.

Ean endiaferese gia peretero sizitisi, parakalo prosopiko minima,

--dimitris dimitroyannis
  los alamos
            ______________________________________
>PS Akoluthi pio leptomeres sholi tu macedonia2

>>>
>>>
>>managed through brilliant warfare and statesmanship, to impose
                   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>kamia "kaliteri" lexi gia ton polemo  den vriskis?

        O polemos einai foberos. Alla h strathgikh tou Filippou
htan ontws lamprh, opws kai tou Ale3androu. Auto ennoousa. To
oti htan lamprh to apodeiknuoun oi sunexeis nikes tou. Auto den
shmainei oti latreuw  ton polemo! Makari na mhn doun pote polemo
ta  matia mas. Elpizw na sunerizesai ayth thn euxh mou.

>>. Philip's
>>greatest achievement and legacy was his son, Alexander the Great,
           ^^^^^^^^^^^
>Huh?

     O Ale3andros ofeile polla sthn ekpaideush pou elabe kai gia
thn opoia htan amesa upeu8ynos o pateras tou.


>>Manolis Andronikos, of the Macedonian University in Salonica).
>To panepistimio legete Aristotelio. Den iparhi puthena stin ellada
>macedonian university, entaxi?

      Edw kaneis la8os. To '90 nomizw (den 8umamai kala) to
Aristoteleio onomasthke MAKEDONIKO PANEPISTHMIO 8ESSALONIKHS. Auth
einai twra h epishmh onomasia tou.

>>   Macedonia survived under Roman rule, to which it fell in 168
             ^^^^^^^
>>B.C. following the fatal battle of Pydna. It came back into
                   ^^^^^
>Fenese nearos stin aglikin...

      eimai. Mporeis na dior8wseis to keimeno opws nomizeis.


>>medieval Greek Byzantine Empire. Macedonia was one of the richest
           ^^^^^
>Ke afto ine diki su efevresi. Den iparhi "elliniki" vizantini aftokratoria.

    To Byzantio 3ekinhse ws Rwma.i.kh Aytokratoria, alla e3ellhnis8hke.
Istorikoi opws o Sir Steven Runciman, xrhsimopoioun tous orous
''Byzantinoi'' kai ''Ellhnes'' adiakritws. H rwmaikh autokratoria
apekthse ellhnikh suneidhsh: H ellada epezhse ws pneuma. H arxaia
ellada esbhse katw apo tous Rwmaious. Auto ennousa. Diabase thn
frash pou shmeiwses mazi me thn prohgoumenh, kai 8a to katalabeis.


>>Hungarians, Arabs and Bulgarians repeatedly attacked the area. The
              ^^^^^
>Siguros ke gi' afto, etsi?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

  Diaole, nai! Oi Arabes epite8hkan sth 8essalonikh. Epaneillhmenws.


>>times the Greek, Christian orthodox population reduced its numbers,
 > ...by the use of a new contraceptive. Yo!
       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

   To xioumor sou me lupei. Giati prospa8eis na me e3euteliseis
epeidh diafwneis mazi mou? Den einai alh9eia ayto pou lew?
Polloi ellhnes esfax8hkan, polloi e3islamis8hkan. Ti sou fai-
netai para3eno?


>>Nikotsaras and the priest (whom the Turks captured and killed on
>>the cross in 1807) papa-Thymios Vlahavas, kept the Ottoman army
>>busy and always on alert. The Greek War of Independence of 1821
  >Afta ipotheto ta thimase apo to anagnostiko tu dimotiku, etsi?
                            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

  Oxi. Ta diabasa sthn Istoria tou Ellhnikou E8nous, kai epsa3a
na brw anafores sthn e8nikh biblio8hkh sthn A8hna, otan hmoun
sthn Ellada. Den xreiazomai didaskaliko patronarisma gia na
ma8w kati gia thn istoria ths xwras mou. Dhladh an egrafa oti,
feripein, o Diakos pe8ane anaskolopismenos, 8a eprepe na exw pali
psa3ei ta anagnwstika? Gia thn epanastash exw diabasei kai ta
apomnhmoneumata tou Kolokotrwnh, tou Fwtakou, thn Istoria tou
Dionysiou Kokkinou. Exw diabasei thn ellhnikh nomarxia kai ta
apomnhmoneumata tou Makrygiannh. Ola auta, egw den ta 8ewrw
anagnwstika. Kai pali, giati me koroideueis? De sou arese
auto pou egrapsa? giati? einai alh8eia, 3ereis.

>>speaking Greek as their native language, but identified themselves
>>as Greeks nonetheless. As an example I can quote two guerilla
                                       ^^^^^^^^^^^
                    edw exeis apoluto dikio. Mou 3efyge.

>>leaders, captain Mitro-Kottas, and captain Brammos, who was a house
>>builder in his civil life and who died fighting an Ottoman cavalry
>>unit that trapped him. They both conferred in Slavic.

>Ep, apo physics to rixame se istorikus "we can quote"...Slavic what?
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

    8a apanthsw kai s'auto sto telos.

>Sa na les milagane indoevropaika...Alli mia efevresi, the Slavic language

     Htan slauofwnoi! etsi to leme sta ellhnika, kai omologw
oti den gnwrizw pia dialekto milousan kai an htan boulgarika h
serbika. Mhpws mporeis na me diafwtiseis anti na me eirwneuesai?



>>     By a curious coincidence, the Greek province of Macedonia was
>>almost identical in spatial extent to the ancient Greek Macedonian
>>kingdom.

>E veva, na min erthune tora i kaki ke mas zitane ke ta resta. To kopsane
>to baklava makedonitika...

      Einai alh8eia oti h ellhnikh eparxia ths Makedonias
 sumpiptei sxedon me to basileio twn Argeiadwn. Koita3e merikous
 xartes gia na peis8eis. Ta noumera pou anaferw einai apo th
 sun9hkh. Giati den les kati gia ayta?



>> When the Germans left, the Bulgarian
>>population emigrated to Bulgaria.

 >Ti les ore? Voluntary ethnic cleansing, entaxi!

     Osoi den fugane diwxthkan. 3ereis ti esti komitatzhs?
   gegonos einai oti boulgaroi sthn ellada den emeinan.


>>The Jews that survived the nazis,
>Posi itan afti i evrei tis thesalonikis pu ti glitosan? Sa de ntrepese
                                                        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>leo ego. Afti pu legonte salonikii sti Haifa tin ihan kopanisi apo
^^^^^^^^
>ti thesaloniki prin ton polemo.

       Twra me prosballeis. Den eixan fygei oloi prin ton polemo.
Epishs, oi Ebraioi ths 8essalonikhs den stal8hkan sta stratopeda
sugentrwsews para pros to telos tou polemou kai ths katoxhs. Merikoi
kryf8hkan apo xristianous. Epeidh phgan sta stratopeda pros to telos,
polloi glytwsan. To ebra.i.ko kratos idru8hke meta ton B' Pagkosmio,
kai oi pio polloi metanastes ebraioi phgan tote ekei, me prwtous
kai kaluterous tous epizhasantes ta pogroms tou Hitler.
        Tis prosboles sou den tis dexomai, mporeis na tis krathseis
gia ton eauto sou.


>>     After 1935 the KKE changed its official line calling for "just
>>treatment of all minorities". In Yugoslavia, Marshall Tito now took
>>up the dream of a Yugoslavia reaching the Aegean.

 >O tito pire exusia sta heria tu to '45. Ti provlima ehis me to
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

     enta3ei, loipon? pote egine o emfulios?
     epishs: o Tito den prwtoemfanisthke to '45 kai eixe thn
  hgesia tou KK Gioug. apo merika xronia prin.


>"just treatment of all minorities"? Kako su fenete?

     As mhn eimaste afeleis! Gnwrizoume oloi pws ta wraia
logia kamouflaroun tis alh8ines pro8eseis. Fwnazei o
noikokurhs, fwnazei ki o klefths. Epishs, ta pio omorfa
kai gluka logia ta exw akousei apo diktatorika kai
oloklhrwtika ka8estwta. Kai twra, sygekrimena sto 8ema: Se poia
meionothta anaferetai to syn8hma? sthn ''slabomakedonikh
meionothta ths Ellados''. Ayto einai ena pseudes kataskeuasma!
Tetoia meionothta den uparxei twra kai den uphrxe tote!
Parempitontws, auth einai h meionothta pou exoun anakalupsei
oi Skopianoi kai thn opoia (meionothta) katapiezei h Ellada...
    Apo to '43 o Tito eixe steilei ton Vucmanovic-Tempo
gia th dhmiourgia koinou antartikou ellhnwn-giougoslabwn-
-makedonwn. H prospa9eia tou den egine dekth apo to KKE kai
ton ELAS (pros timh tous). Petyxe omws na idrusei to
  ''Slabo-makedoniko Apeleu9erwtiko metwpo''. Nomizw oti
o tilos einai safestatos.
    O Tito prospa8hse epishs na dhmiourghsei omospondo
kratos me thn Boulgaria. H Boulgaria apperipse thn protash
dioti pro.u.poti9etotan h paroxh Boulgarikou edafous gia
thn dhmiourgia ths Makedonias. Sto KKB bghkan tote ta
maxairia kai apeilh8hke plhrhs diaspash tou kommatos.
Auta apo to f8inopwro tou '44.


>>lasted until 1949, and Tito supplied fighting men, refuge,
>>ordnance, and commissars for political direction, to the KKE army
>>almost to the end.

>Pali apo to anagnostiko etsi? O tito ta tsugrise me ton stalin to 47
>ke eklise ta sinora me tin ellada. Ohi oplismo alla ute "safe passage"
>edine o tito ston "dimokratiko strato" ( afto tha enois otan les o stratos
>tu kke, ase afto den to piano gia kenuria efevresi)

   Auto to anagnwstiko sou telika ta exei ola!
   O Dhmokratikos Stratos elegxotan apo to KKE, kai kata
th diarkeia tou emfuliou htan alh8ws o stratos tou KKE akoma
kai an den onomazotan etsi. Auton ennousa, nai.
 O Tito stamathse ontws thn enisxush twn antartwn, exeis dikio.
Ayth h kinhsh egine  dioti htan safes pia oti h Ellada 8a
emene sth Dush, kai o idios o Tito h8ele na mhn katastrepsei
tis sxeseis tou me tis H.P.A . Thn kinhsh auth tou Tito o
Zaxariadhs thn apekalese ''piswplato xtuphma''. Epishmws
h kinhsh auth egine to '47, alla anepishma oi antartes ebriskan
akoma katafygio sth Gioug. Mono pros to telos, mesa sto '48
oi antartes emeinan apelpistika monoi. Nomizeis mhpws oti
pragmati 8a antexe alla 2 xronia o DSE dixws uposthri3h enantia
s'ena strato kalota.i.smeno, kalontumeno kai kaloe3oplismeno?
   Stis 30-31 Ianouariou tou '49, o Zaxariadhs
sugalese thn E' Olomeleia tou KKE. Tote apomakrun8hke o
Markos Bafeiadhs, kai h nea ''kubernhsh'' eixe ''Prw8ypourgo''
ton Dhm. Partsalidh. Sou metaferw autousia mia paragrafo
ths Olomeleias (ta sxolia se () dika mou):
   ''Sth Boreia Ellada o makedonikos (slabomakedonikos) laos
ta edwse ola gia ton agwna kai polema me oloklhrwsh (sic)
hrwismou kai ayto8ysias pou prokaloun ton hrwismo. Den
prepei na yparxei kammia amfibolia oti san apotelesma ths
nikhs (sic) tou DSE kai ths la.i.khs epanastashs, o makedonikos
laos 8a brei thn plhrh e8nikh apokatastash tou etsi opws th 8elei
o idios, prosferontas shmera to aima tou gia na thn apokthsei''.
   Auth h paragrafos prokalese 8uella ston kosmo ths Aristeras,
kai idiaitera maxhtikos htan o Hlias Tsirimwkos, o genikos
grammateas ths ELD (des kai ar8ra tou sth MAXH, thn
efhmerida ths ELD).

  Elpizw na mh se kourasa. Ta brhka proxeira sto palio
mou anagnwstiko kai ta egrapsa.



>>Yugoslav Republic ruled by Skopje and called "Macedonia". He

>..ke epi 40 hronia i episimi ellada den ihe provlima me afto,
>ke olo agalitses ke filakia me to tito apo papago, georgio papandreu,
>hunta, mehri kostaki karamanli ki antriko papantreu. Pos ke tora
>mas anixane ta matia???

   As opsetai to klima kalwn sxesewn me thn Giougoslauia.
Gia thn politikh twn perasmenwn ellhnikwn kybernhsewn den
mporw na apologh8w, dioti den eimai upe8unos. Thn erwthsh
sou ayth (kalh erwthsh) prepei na thn apeu8uneis allou.


>>and the historical Macedonia and the Greek people that have born
                                                              ^^^^^
      Edw me tsakwses! bore h8ela na pw. pwpw ti egrapsa...

>>the name through the millennia.

>Ase, de leo ti, rotise na su pune...

      kala, to dior8wsa. exeis dikio.

>>is this majority which is carried away by nationalism, calling
                                    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Eno emis i ellines to pezume me epihirimata ke diapragmatefsis....

      An den kanw la8os h ellhnikh kubernhsh xrhsimopooei
epixeirhmata kai diaparagmateuseis, xwris pollh epityxia.
Katalabainw, bebaia, oti kai pali eirwneuesai emena. Nomizw
pws egrapsa thn alh8eia. Den eimai e8nikisths, kai den
uposthrizw oti oi Ellhnes einai to mono yperoxo kai dikaio
e9nos ston kosmo. Den eimaste uperoxoi, oute panta dikaioi.
      Omws agapw ton topo mou kai 9a h8ela na ton dw na
prokobei. Sth sugekrimenh  periptwsh exoume to dikio, kai
an h ellada einai ena oikopedo (auth htan h ekfrash sou),
tote, diaole, exw ki egw meridio s'ayto to oikopedo kai
8elw na to krathsw.
      Einai alh8eia oti den eimai istorikos, oute pote
isxyristhka oti exw auto ton titlo. 3erw mono duo-tria
pragmatakia kai eipa na moirastw th ftwxeia mou me allous.
Oute to keimeno mou einai mia plhrhs episthmonikh pramgateia,
kai den mporousa na anaferomai leptomerestata se ka9e epoxh
dioti oute tis gnwseis, oute to xrono exw na to pra3w.
Arnoumai ton upainigmo sou oti den dikaioumai na grafw dioti
eimai fusikos. Eimai ele8euros poliths mias eleu8erhs xwras
kai exw to dikaiwma na diathrw tis apopseis mou. Giauto
to dikaiwma xu8hke polu aima, oxi mono sthn Ellada, kai eimai
perhfanos pou kapoioi edwsan th zwh tous gia na to exw.
      An esu exeis perissoteres gnwseis, tote se parakalw
na tis grapseis kapote gia na anoi3oun ta matia mou ligo
parapanw. An exeis diaforetikes apopseis, tote peise me
pws einai swstes!
      Epishs, na dhlwsw oti den pisteuw se omixlwdeis
ekfraseis tou typou "oloi oi laoi einai aderfia kai den
exoun tipota na moirasoun". Mou dineis thn entypwsh oti
uposthrizeis tetoies apopseis, xwris na ginesai polu safhs.
Den tis uposthrizw kai den tis katalbainw. Einai proswpa
oi laoi gia na droun kat'auto ton tropo?
       Gia ta grammatika la8h exeis, opws eipa, dikio. Opote
parakalw dior8wste ta.
       Sto keimeno sou prospa8eis sunexws na me eirwneu8eis
kata e3eutelistiko tropo. 8a se sumbouleua na metaxeirizesai
pio polla epixeirhmata anti gia eirwneia. Ta xudaia xtuphmata
(kai mesw e-mail, pou oute se blepw) ta arnoumai.

        Dionyshs Mintzopoulos.
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