From: odlin@reed.edu (Iain Odlin)
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
Subject: Re: Irvine Clan Heraldry
Date: 13 Nov 92 03:39:08 GMT
Organization: The Stuffed Animal Trauma Team  (We're Trained Professionals)

[I'll say this up front:  I have no idea how 'valid' the 'Clan' Irvine is.
 I *do* know it didn't exist before 1746 (and therefore 1782), so make of that
  what you will.  This fact does not, however, affect anything that follows.]

In article <BxKDox.DFM@news.cso.uiuc.edu> irvine@uxh.cso.uiuc.edu (Brent Irvine) writes:
>2.  If there are any persons of Clan Irvine on the net, I can get access to 
>	a detailed Clan history published around 1890 (details who's who in the
>	clan pre-1890, relations with Douglas, Stewart (and why we can 
>	'rightfully' wear either tartan, but have none of our own, yet are a
>	'real' clan and not a sept.)  Its kind of old, but if there is anyone
>	that doesn't know, I may be able to look it up over the Holidays.
>	If anyone knows of a more up-to-date family history, I would like to
>	know, and where I can find it...

  BE VERY CAREFUL.

  Just because your last name is Irvine doesn't mean you're realated to Scots
  Irvines.  If you are, that doesn't necessarily mean you're part of a Clan.
  You may very well be, but find out first.

  Most of the "Clan" and "Sept" lists are pure and utter hog-swill, invented
  in 1822 by a lot of greedy weavers who saw an opportunity in King George IV's
  visit to Scotland to sell lots and lots of "official tartans" (which had
  been proscribed from 1746 to ~1782, with much of the real info lost during
  that time) to as many people as possible.  They drew up these lists to 
  prove to the suddely eager buyers that if your last name was "White," you
  were "entitled" to wear "MacLean" (or whatever), despite the fact that both
  England and France had families named "White" with no connections to the 
  Highlands what-so-ever.

  And then, of course, there's the erroneous perception that just because you
  have Scottish ancestry, you are part of a Clan.  Wrong:  The Lowlands Scots
  had nothing to do with the Clan structure (until it became fashionable, of
  course).  Besides which:  The Clans were *FAMILIES*, a distinction that has
  been muddied in the centuries since.  I am 1/4 Danish, with the blood of
  Danish Kings in my veins.  That does NOT mean I'm part of a Danish Royal
  Family.  Same difference.

  If you can personally document direct descent, Great!  Otherwise:  Caveat
  Emptor.  There's an official Clan structure still in existence (it did *not*
  die at Culloden) and it has offices in Scotland.  Any decent library ought
  to be able to point you their direction;  Get real information from them.
  There are laws in Great Britian about bearing arms you're not entitled to.
  The Clan structure is not just a toy or "som'thin' pretty";  it is a legal
  structure.  I'm not certain to what extent the laws apply outside Great
  Britain, but it's best to be warned anyway.

  And now, just to make this article more Heraldry relevant:  I have an ex-
  ceedingly simple question, but one I have yet to find answered in any book I
  have access to:  When a charge is defined as "proper," does this mean you
  may use colours that are not included in the standard tinctures (ie: brown)?
  I expect so, but the books I have don't say and are all in black and white.

  Thanks,
  -Iain Odlin (who *is* Clan descended through two of the oldest: Grant and
  MacKinnon.  This does not, however, mean he is a part of either clan; just
  that he is descended from them.)
-- 
 --------------------------------- Iain Odlin ---------------------------------
                  10 Crosby Street, Level 3, Portland ME 04103
                                 odlin@reed.edu
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