HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mattm@apple.com (Matthew Melmon)
Subject: Re: discrimination at CMU
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 20:47:28 GMT
Organization: Apple Computer, Inc.
Followup-To: soc.motss

In article <CORWIN+.92Nov10081709@MORPHEUS.CIMDS.RI.CMU.EDU>,
corwin+@CMU.EDU (Scott Safier) wrote:

>    Professional, world-class programs in the performing arts --
>    and Carnegie Mellon's Drama Department is both -- have to take
>    their student actors' "personal mannerisms" into consideration.
>    It is a brute fact of life.  

> Just to belabor the point, I don't understand what "personal
> mannerisms" are being evaluated, how they can be objectively
> evaluated.  If you could explain, I would appreciate it.  I believe
> that the use of "personal mannerisms" was simply the catch-phrase for
> being asked to leave because the men were gay.

"Mannerisms" are an affectation which clouds the performance.  They
can, when executed well, add depth to a characterization.  Or, 
they can muddle the communication, in effect hiding the character
behind the mannerism.  If the audience starts to focus on the
affectations of an actor and not his role, the play is that much
closer to failure.  

Speaking hypothetical like:  if in every role he played, an actor
exhibited homosexual mannerisms (you used the word 'campy' - which
is even a step beyond mannerism - it is basically intentional
over-acting) - then the actor is probably a detriment to his
acting company, and deserving of dismissal.  Not on the grounds
of *being* homosexual, but on the grounds of failing to do his
job:  which is to communicate a role, *not* homosexuality.  

Perhaps the student fell into this category.

I very seriously doubt he was dismissed for being gay. Saying there 
are homosexuals in the theater community is rather like saying 
Frenchmen drink red wine, and that the Squirrel drinks young 
Frenchmen...

If the student did not 'flame' his way through every performance,
you have already brought up the most likely case:  he pissed 
someone off.  Again, pissing off a director or a producer type is
a very good way not to work in the theater, even if one is a very
succesful actor/actress.  Tallulah Bankhead, who 'made' the stage
version of Little Foxes (with what must be another of Dolphie's
fave queens 'making' the screen...) was a natural choice for a London 
rivival.  In fact, as the London revival came after Bette Davis
had delivered one hell of a performance, Bankhead was pretty much
the *only* stage actress who could pull it off.  And Bankhead was
very eager to do the part.  But... 

Lillian Hellman did not like Bankhead (despite the actress being
somewhat responsible for making Hellman rich, powerful, and a
'legend in her own time'). The play did not go on.

It's not pretty, but it is a 'brute fact of life.'

*X*
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: mike@gordian.com (Michael A. Thomas)
Subject: Re: discrimination at CMU
Organization: Gordian; Costa Mesa, CA
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 23:39:58 GMT

In article <CORWIN+.92Nov11153318@MORPHEUS.CIMDS.RI.CMU.EDU>, corwin+@CMU.EDU (Scott Safier) writes:
> In article <1992Nov11.182228.29647@gordian.com> mike@gordian.com (Michael A. Thomas) writes:
> Is a painter allowed to let their sexuality enter their work?  What
> about Maplethorpe?  What distinguishes an actor from these other
> artists?  I am not saying that every actor is appropriate for every
> role.  But to argue that a person can turn off their sexuality on
> demand is absurd. 

  But that's exactly their job. An actor is part of the performing
arts which is a very different animal that the visual or audible
arts.
  We are not talking about analogous situation here at all.
A painter/photographer is analogous to a writer not a performer. 
No one is saying that a writer should be stiffled on the basis
of their sexuality, or even that they shouldn't let their sexuality
be inbued in their work if desired. An actor on the other hand
has responsibility to the work he is performing. If he cannot handle
that he is not doing his job properly.
  This is no different than a jazz player whining that he can't 
get a gig with the New York Symphony, or Mick Jagger with the Met.
If you don't play to the programme, you don't deserve to get the job
- no matter how much you jazz is a part of your sole. 
 
> Are you and Arne planning on moving to Colorado sometime soon?

  Oh puleeze, hon. Admit it, Arne has you dead to rights here. 
 
>    > I find the implication that it is OK to force someone to deny their
>    > sexuality repugnant, and that is what I view as going on in Drama.
> 
>      But drama is absolutely about denying all sorts of things which
>    the individual actor is not. A good actor should be able to push
>    him/herself aside to play the roll. Providing we are talking about
>    mannerisms, this is not discrimination based on irrelevant characteristics.
> 
> This is total bullshit.  It is simply saying that certain fields may
> discriminate because they want to.

  Based on defining characteristics of the job? Of course. It cannot
be otherwise.

> How is what Drama is doing any different that the DOD ban.

  In every essential way. I cannot believe that you don't see
the distinction. Try this:
   1) Does acting affected change whether an order ought to be taken
      seriously in the Military?
   2) Does acting affected affect the believability of a characters
      portrayal by an actor? (remember Billy-Bob?)
-- 

		Michael Thomas	(mike@gordian.com)
	"I don't think Bambi Eyes will get you that flame thrower..."  
		-- Hobbes to Calvin
		USnail: 20361 Irvine Ave Santa Ana Heights, Ca,	92707-5637
		PaBell: (714) 850-0205 (714) 850-0533 (fax)
From: rjwill6@PacBell.COM (Rod Williams)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Boycott Colorado
Date: 6 Nov 92 23:56:04 GMT
Article-I.D.: PacBell.1992Nov6.235604.17792
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Francisco

> anthropo@carina.unm.edu (Dominick V. Zurlo) writes:
>> mush@craycos.com (Randy Murrish) writes:

>>>   Don't purchase Coors beer.
>>
>>I have to agree on this one.  Although Coors (the corporation) has
>>increased it's presence in the gay and lesbian community, Peter Coors
>>(I believe he is the CEO) is very homophobic and gave money to CFV.
>>Although my Grandfather was a Vice President of Coors, I've never
>>really liked their beer OR their politics.  FYI, Miller Brewing has
>>been a VERY big supporter of the community here in Colorado and gave
>>quite a bit of money to EPOC.  Buy Miller products and forget about
>>Coors.
> 
>Also for a little added incentive, this last year Miller signed 
>a contract agreement with the International Gay Rodeo Assoc. to be 
>their primary sponsor over the next 3 years, which means literally
>millions of dollars.    Miller is good, and this is bizzare since 
>saying this since I work in a drug and alcohol rehab center!

I'm well aware of both Coors' and Miller's courtship of the
L/G beer dollar.  It's worth reminding people that Miller has
its own corporate skeleton-in-the-closet: its parent, Phillip
Morris, is a generous contributor to one Senator Jesse Helms.

I tend to stick to local brews, such as Red Tail Ale from
Mendocino, CA., and Railroad Ale from Devil's Mountain Brewery
across the Bay, not to mention Anchor Steam Beer from right
here in SF (yum).  Guess I should inquire into their corporate
PCness...

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
rod williams -=- pacific bell -=- san francisco -=- rjwill6@pacbell.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: susan@cs.tufts.edu (Susan)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: after the fact de-muffing
Date: 10 Nov 92 21:58:19 GMT
Organization: Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory, Cambridge, MA,  USA


HI,
 
With all the post election talk, I seem to have posted
a few times already without every saying hello, I'm here...
 
Hello, I'm here!  :)
 
 
Unfortunately, my access to the net will be ending soon as I go on
the road to travel west.  Hopefully I will be back on the net soon
after settling in somewhere.
 
I was hoping before I go, to get from someone (e-mail is fine)
a list of references for coming out to parents (NC Chapel Hill region)
and a list of references of LGBO books (I have the movie list)
and as I posted before - friendly places along Interstate 40 West.
I will be spending several days in both Yuma, Arizona and Berkeley, CA
so places (clubs) there would be extra wonderful.
 
thanks bunches for the info and for being on the net.
It is always nice to have friendy places to turn.
 
Best of luck to ALL who are still in places with discrimination
(Cambridge has been wonderfull - though not without troubles)
 
-susan
 
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: ECL4JN2@MVS.OAC.UCLA.EDU (Jack B. Nimble)
Subject: Re: The Shoe Fits (was Re: Social Democracy)
Date: 6 Nov 92 01:24:42 PST

In article <mattm-291092100708@mcmelmon.apple.com>, on 29 Oct 1992 18:26:10 GMT,
mattm@apple.com (Matthew Melmon) writes:

>
>The tintinabulatingest totalitarian (but certainly *not* tightest)
>tinkerbell to trumpet a tune tenaciously tears into one Jack B.
>Nimble: 
>
Matthew, you are a wicked boy! But a most worthy successor to the wild
Sebastian Melmoth. He would be most proud.

>
>Melmothra, acc
>
        =Jack=
---

Jack B. Newsbaum                  No not one man, no not ten men,
Library Information Systems       Nor a hundred can assuage me.
University Research Library       I will have you!
ecl4jn2@mvs.oac.ucla.edu               - Steven Sondheim
From: mattm@apple.com (Matthew Melmon)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Apple's Stand on CO:2
Date: 11 Nov 92 01:22:11 GMT
Followup-To: soc.motss
Organization: Apple Computer, Inc.

In article <17899@autodesk.COM>, mickw@autodesk.com (Mick Washbrook) wrote:

> Do you make a habit of posting Apple's internal memos to the net?

Posting an 'internal memo from the lambda mailing list' to the net
is essentially a cross-post from the internal Apple network
(AppleLink) to the Internet.  It is not, per se, a cross-post
of official some official Apple memo (i.e. Sculley did not ask
homosexual employees to champion Apple's cause on the Internet),
as per the 'Note' at the beginning of the posting.

So what's the problem?

(ps:  I got swamped with people asking for the company's address.
It is:

Apple Computer, Inc.
20525 Mariani Avenue
Cupertino, CA  95014)

*X*
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: bob@dolores.Stanford.EDU (Bob Lodenkamper)
Subject: Re: Leftists Under Every Shrub (Re: Social Democracy)
Organization: Computer Systems Laboratory, Stanford University
	<1dls7lINNd2q@seven-up.East.Sun.COM>
Date: 9 Nov 92 18:58:55

In article <1dls7lINNd2q@seven-up.East.Sun.COM>
his@the-temple.East.Sun.COM (Howard Solomon - SunExpress Support
Engineer) writes:  

   In article 92Nov6150448@luciano.Stanford.EDU, robertl@luciano.Stanford.EDU (Robert Lodenkamper) writes:

   >One wonders which part of "Hold your nose and vote for Bill" is
   >unclear.

   As the originator of the phrase (which no longer needs to be in my
   subject line!), I think we have a problem with semantics here. 

I think not.  You and Mr. Nimble may have a problem with semantics.
You and I have differently calibrated sarcasm detectors.

   [rationale for voting for Clinton deleted, due to complete
   agreement on my part]

- Bob



Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: may@hpcesma.ce.hp.com (Elaine May)
Subject: Re: CO-2 Ammendment PASSES 8-(
Reply-To: may@hpcesma.ce.hp.com
Organization: HP Corporate Engineering - Palo Alto, CA
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1.4 PL6]
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 00:38:53 GMT

Rod Williams (rjwill6@PacBell.COM) wrote:
: > coren@speed.osf.org (Robert Coren) writes:
: >                                                     ...what it says
: >is that if a government agency, or for that matter any entity in
: >Colorado, *does* discriminate on the grounds of sexual orientation,
: >the victim has no legal recourse.
: Advertisements for apartment rentals or shares, job
: openings at LGB businesses, announcements of LGB events
: should read, "Heterosexuals Need Not Apply."

No, the people that drafted the amendment already anticipated this tactic.
The amendment specifically states that people cannot claim discrimination
based on sexual orientation for homosexual or bisexual activity, thus leaving
the loophole in place to prohibit gays from discriminating against straights.

--
Elaine May                               Hewlett-Packard Corporate Engineering
may@hpcesma.ce.hp.com		         Palo Alto, California
------------------- Hatred and Bigotry are immoral ---------------------------
From: elliott@courant.princeton.edu (Frank W. Elliott Jr.)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Social Democracy
Date: 7 Nov 92 00:57:55 GMT
Organization: Princeton University

In article <19921106003718ECL4JN2@MVS.OAC.UCLA.EDU> ECL4JN2@MVS.OAC.UCLA.EDU (Jack B. Nimble) writes:
>
>Another example  with which I have first hand experience is in the case
>of GLAAD/LA's (Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation/Los Angeles)
>criticism of Oliver Stone's movie _JFK_. At the time we pointed out that
>all the villains in the story were cast as gays whose lifestyle
>consisted of an orgiastic party after another when they weren't
>otherwise conspiring to assassinate the president. In fact, Stone even
>conflated a couple of characters who in real life were straight and cast
>them as gay in order to "simplify" the story line.  Meanwhile many of
>the character flaws of DA Jim Garrison, portrayed by Stone as a white
>knight in shining armor, were overlooked -- among which was that in real
>life he was a notorious homophobe who personally ordered the New Orleans
>police department to raid gay bars.
>
>Naturally, we received much criticism for our denigration of this noble
>effort to expose the monumental conspiracy. (Although GLAAD did not
>specifically address the question of the conspiracy itself, I might add
>that the story line had so many incompatible plot lines that the story
>was not even internally consistent). Here too, the leftist Uncle Toms
>were perfectly willing to condone homophobia when it suited their
>agenda.
>---
>
>Jack B. Newsbaum             You have rights antecedent to all earthly
>Library Information Systems  governments; rights that cannot be
>University Research Library  repealed or restrained by human law.
>ecl4jn2@mvs.oac.ucla.edu               - John Adams

Your point is well taken.  Clay Shaw was a well respected man in
New Orleans.  He was the person most responsible for the construction
of the International Trade Mart and the preservation of the Vieux
Carre; he was at the time the most successful and admired gay man
in New Orleans.  It is the opinion of most reporters who covered
Clay Shaw's trials as well as that of many people working for then
District Attorney Garrison that he wove the case against Shaw as
a fabric of lies so that Garrison could gain the fame necessary to run
for political office.  Because of his sexuality Shaw was the perfect
victim.  Garrison hounded Shaw literally to the grave.

Oliver Stone portrayed Garrison's conjectures about Shaw as fact.
This misrepresentation is beneath contempt.  The Left's defense
of Stone's movie was, to say the least, apalling.


-- Frank
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: jls2@teal.csn.org (Jeff Stoner)
Subject: Re: Boycott Colorado
Keywords: hate activism politics election christian
Organization: Colorado SuperNet, Inc.
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 23:18:24 GMT

In article <4450@wet.UUCP> charlie@wet.UUCP (Charlie GALVIN) writes:
>I don't read the newsgroups very often, so pardon me if this is
>duplicative.  But it's important for every person concerned about
>civil rights to consider boycotting Colorado in the wake of the
>passage of Amendment 2, which changed the state Constitution to
>prohibit "sexual orientation" from being included in state or local
>anti-discrimination laws.  It is now explicitly legal to discriminate
>on the basis of sexual orientation in Colorado.
>
>Please do not travel to or through Colorado, nor purchase any product
>or service from a company which has a major office there.  This means:

This means destroy the fledgling computer company I work for, allowing them to
let me go simply on the basis of Colorado's economy being badly wounded.
Fucking brilliant. Having no recourse on gay discrimination won't help much 
when you *really are* being let go for lack of money.

And the gay employees of United and Continental and Coors probably would
also appreciate those words.

No, Bay Area MOTSS-er's, help this and other gay Coloradans out by encouraging
your companies with presence in Colorado to help combat this disaster with
funds, letters of complaint, employee enlightenment, and anything else you
can think of.

-- 
====== Jeff L. Stoner === Boulder, Colo. ============ /\ = /\ ========== |
                                                 /\  /  \ /  /\  /\    --*--
   Home: jls2 @ bearhug.boulder.co.us         /\/  \/    /  /  \/  /\    |
   News: jls2 @ csn.org                    /\/  \   \  /\  /    \    /\
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: lygariba@unix.amherst.edu (LISA YVONNE GARIBAY)
Subject: Research request--help...
Summary: Request for books, articles, interviews, etc...
Keywords: Research stuff needed
Organization: Amherst College
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 23:23:37 GMT


Hello!  This is my first ever post on soc.motss, so I am a little nervous,
and am hoping that I get some good responses and no flames (please!).

I am a bisexual college student from the Texas/New Mexico/Mexico border,
and I am currently involed in doing a research project for my class on
Homosexual History.  The topic I want to work on is (very broadly; I haven't
really been able to narrow it down yet) basically about growing up gay,
lesbian or bisexual in the Southwest.  I want to talk about stuff like
the Catholic tradition in hispanic culture, American culture and ideals
v. Mexican culture, the family tradition in Hispanics and Catholics, etc...
Stuff like that that a homosexual/bisexual growing up and living in a place
on the border would have to deal with.

So, can anyone help me out?  Give me ideas for references, including books,
articles, interviews, magazines, journals, anything?  I would really appreciate
it.  Please send any and all ideas to:
        lygaribay@amh.amherst.edu
     OR lygaribay@amherst.bitnet.edu
     OR lygaribay@amherst.edu

The last address should be the most effective, but since our new system
has been having a nervous breakdown lately or something, it helps to try 
any of those addresses.

Thank you all ever so much; this will help a LOT.

BTW, soc.motss is a great group, and I'm glad you all are here.

Lisa :)

"This is my story, both humble and true
 Tear it to pieces and mend it with glue."
                              --John Lennon
From: jct@mips.com (Chris Thomas)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: too controversial for NBC
Date: 5 Nov 92 22:06:13 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Mips Technologies, Inc.
NNTP-Posting-Host: ecstasy.mti.sgi.com

>>This producer acknowledged that the network had already deemed
>>show's on abortion and gay-bashing as unacceptable for this season.

Actually, as I heard it on CNN's "Showbiz Today" yesterday, the ban
applies to *all* NBC entertainment programs this year, and not just to
"A Different World".

As for the gay-bashing thing... this might not be so bad!  *Nowhere*
does NBC say that gay themes are prohibited.  In fact, after seeing
far too many "innocent-person-gets-gay-bashed-and-we-spend-the-whole-
hour-singing-the-oppression-blues" episodes (not just on NBC, either),
I hope that maybe some producers will take the challenge to develop
gay-themed episodes with more positive and/or diverse topics.
-- 
Chris Thomas                                                (415) 390-4118
S4/7 b g+ l y+ z+ n+ o+ x-/+ a++ u v-/+ j++                jct@mti.sgi.com
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: jfh@netcom.com (Jack Hamilton)
Subject: Re: The New Yorker magazine supports Colorado!
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1992 19:57:25 GMT

In article <1992Nov07.055938.26636@boy.com> robert@boy.com (Robert A. Swirsky) writes:
>The _New Yorker_ magazine, with (I suspect) a large gay readership,
>supports Colorado by using a 'fulfillment service' in Boulder to
>process subscriptions.
>
>Write them (20 West 43rd Street, New York NY 10036) and complain.
>Tell them to find a subscription processing service in another state.

I suppose that if you were feeling combatative, you could write "Stop
supporting Colorado businesses" on the subscription cards in magazines and
mail them in, along with an anonymous note to the magazine's editorial
offices saying what you were doing and why.  It costs about quarter apiece
to handle those things, doesn't it?  Sometimes I think I get a thousand of
them a month, almost with Colorado fullfilment services.   

That's probably postal fraud or some such crime, so of course I wouldn't
recommend that anyone do such a thing, nor would I admit it if I did it
myself.  I might even use gloves when I filled out the cards.



-- 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Jack Hamilton   jfh@netcom.com   P. O. Box 281107   SF, CA   94128-1107
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: gary@isis.cgd.ucar.edu (Gary Strand)
Subject: Re: Colorado Amendment 2: The First Fatality
Organization: Climate and Global Dynamics Division/NCAR, Boulder, CO
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 17:05:39 GMT

tc> Tom Christiansen
gs> Gary Strand

gs> Because I'm against legislating a particular morality, 

tc> Amendment 2 *did* legislate a particular morality.  Can't you see that?

  As do the ordinances of Denver, Boulder, and Aspen. Can't you see that? Why
  not leave personal moral beliefs where they are, personal, instead of making
  some views illegal, like the above three ordinances did?

--
Gary Strand                      Opinions stated herein are mine alone and are
strandwg@ncar.ucar.edu            not representative of NCAR, UCAR, or the NSF
From: laura@hoptoad.uucp (Laura Creighton)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Hot Pursuit
Date: 5 Nov 92 15:27:27 GMT
Reply-To: laura@hoptoad.UUCP (Laura Creighton)
Organization: Nebula Consultants in San Francisco

In article <1992Nov4.040940.1640@netcom.com> jfh@netcom.com (Jack Hamilton) writes:
>According to articles in several local newspapers, the budget director of
>the University of San Francisco, has been reprimanded for appearing in a 
>gay porn film.  The student newspaper has called for his dismissal. 

I live at the corner of Fulton and Stanyan.  On the east side
of Stanyan is USF.  On the west side is my house.

There has been no student activity, no posters, no signs, no 
*anything* indicating student protest for or against this.

If the student newspaper calls for this, they are not drumming
up popular student support.  And there is no dissadent end either
that is visible.  Nothing is happening.

Berkeley style protests are unlikely for USF, but I get to see
pleanty of signs and posters for far more unlikely, and to
me point of view, less important issues.  This one has been 
invisible.

My local cafeteria/coffee house is usually full of USF students,
and I asked around -- did you hear of this?
Nobody had heard.  Also nobody cared.  The one person who
really wanted dismissal hadn't heard, didn't care, but thought
that she could run the budget better.

-- 
    Since Ryan White was buried in April 1990, his grave has been vandalized
    *more than* four times.

    (this news courtesy Phil Paxton ipwp400@indycms.bitnet)

Laura Creighton 
toad@toad.com
hoptoad!laura
Newsgroups: soc.motss