From: garvin+@cs.cmu.edu (Susan Garvin)
Subject: Re: A crack in the iron curtain?
Keywords: From: decay@
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1992 18:14:29 GMT

In article <1992Aug16.154953.1952@midway.uchicago.edu> eeb1@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
#Keegan apparently wants to resume our flamewar over whether or not I'm
#a pro-choicer....

I have no quarrel with you calling yourself anything that you want.

I do have a problem with you defining "sides" and assuming that
many people who support legal abortion share your beliefs.

#In article <1992Aug16.134958.28706@crd.ge.com>
#james g keegan jr <keegan@crd.ge.com> writes:
##eeb1@midway.uchicago.edu writes to chaneyhall:
#
##-# But take Kaufman's ravings away, whether or not you
##-# take away yours -- please!  I'm embarrassed that
##-# he's on my side.
#
##i don't believe he is on your side, ms. bartley.
#
#I'd love to disown him, Keegan.  You too, frankly.  Unfortunately, I
#disagree with you and him over less than 100 out of 1,600,000 cases a
#year.  I think that constitutes "on my side."

I sincerely doubt that either Keegan or Kauffman share your
"disgust" for women who have abortions for reasons other than
the ones on your "approved" list.  I do not share that
feeling.  

##i believe mr. kaufman opposes legislation to restrict
##abortion.  you support such legislation.
#
#Why don't you post the rest of the facts, Keegan?
#
#I support legislation to restrict third-trimester abortions to cases
#where the mother's life or health is in danger and very major fetal
#deformities.

That's certainly legislation to restrict abortion.  

For many people, "pro-choice" means "I support a woman's
right to terminate a pregnancy."  For you, it seems to
mean "I support a woman's right to terminate a pregnancy
as long as I approve of the circumstances."  

I doubt that many people would be willing to waste their
time discussing this if you did not proudly proclaim
your stance in your .sig.  Believe me, if Holtsinger or
Chaney put "Pro-choice" in their .sigs, they would get
a similar response.

The broad definition of "pro-choice" is most commonly
used to argue that >70% of Americans are "pro-choice."
I wish that they would simply say that most Americans
support abortions in some circumstances.
If "pro-choice" includes people with opinions like yours,
then it also includes people with opinions like George
Bush.  

##i don't believe mr. kaufman has ever posted that he
##would punish women who have abortions. you have.
#
#I would enforce said laws with penalties to parties that broke them.

Again, that's certainly punishing women who had abortions
under the laws that you desire.

##i don't believe that mr. kaufman has ever suggested
##that there should be fewer abortion rights for stupid
##woman than for other women. you have.
#
#I don't recall saying this.
#
#I'd ask you to post the quote, which I'm sure you've saved.

I didn't save the quote, either, but I do recall your statements
about women who were too stupid to have an abortion within
the time frame that you would dictate.  I really don't think
that it's stupidity that you're punishing, I think it's
poverty.  I fully understood from our discussion of waiting
periods that you have no problem with punishing women for
being poor.

#However....  Since I'm sure you're going to continue posting articles
#like this, and I can't resist defending myself if I see them, and I
#have *NO* intention of being caught in a permanent flamewar with you,
#I'm creating a KILLfile just for you -- so I won't see it, anyway.
#
#So, people, if Keegan attacks me and I don't respond, it's not because
#he's right and I don't have a defense; it's because I didn't see the
#attack in the first place.

Forgive me if I don't believe you.  You responded to Keegan here,
and you had no defense.  You agreed with him.  Your multiple
announcements of your new killfile would be more convincing if
you hadn't accompanied them with an attempt to get in the
last word.  (And, yes, I know, you'll killfile me now, too.
I'm sure that people who care will realize that they're not
allowed to discuss your position.  I just doubt that many
people will care about avoiding your killfile.)

You're free to believe what you like and to label yourself
what you like.  I wish that you were willing to admit
that you are misleading people with your .sig, though.

Susan


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