HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
X-Envelope-to: CIRCPLUS@IDBSU.IDBSU.EDU
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.circplus
Date:         Mon, 25 Jan 1993 14:25:00 MST
              <CIRCPLUS@IDBSU.BITNET>
From:         Nancy Dymock <NANCYD@ECCLAB.MED.UTAH.EDU>
Subject:      LIST INFORMATION REQUEST

Is circplus still an active group?  We have not recieved mail for some time
now.

  -Thanks,
     Circulation Staff
     Eccles Health Sciences Library
     University of Utah
     Nancyd@ecclab.med.utah.edu
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Date:         Fri, 22 Jan 1993 16:06:27 EST
              <CIRCPLUS@IDBSU.BITNET>
From:         Mary Kay <R1MKB@AKRONVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: ATMs in libraries
              21 Jan 1993 10:45:05 -0600 from <katea@UNLLIB.UNL.EDU>

Kate, are there any legal ramifications to consider? will the library be
libel if someone looses their card or is mugged, etc? (I am asking these
just off the top of my head....) It is something to consider...I am not sure
I would want one in my library, but maybe somewhere in the building..We are on
the west end of campus and the bank is in the center of campus. Having a remote
ATM would be a nice convenience...good luck..let me know what you find out.

Mary Kay Ball
Univ. of Akron Law Library
Akron, Ohio 44325--where it is getting colder...brrrrrr.....
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Msg-Class: ALL-IN-1 V2.3 BL8-4 Rev. AAC 20-Dec-1988
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.circplus
Date:         Thu, 21 Jan 1993 09:03:01 -0500
              <CIRCPLUS@IDBSU.BITNET>
From:         "Emily Batista" <batista@A1.RELAY.UPENN.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Circ journals

I thought that there was a fairly new journal devoted to circ/access
issues, from Haworth Press.  I thought it was announced a couple of years
ago at an ALA meeting.  I don't remember the name of the journal, but
Access was in the title, I believe.  The editorial staff solicited article
ideas for the first issue.  has anyone seen it?

Emily Batista
From: LWLMAW@UBVM.BITNET (mary ann wachowiak)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.circplus
Subject: Re: Change for copiers.
Date: 21 Jan 93 16:46:09 GMT
              <CIRCPLUS@IDBSU.BITNET>
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Our Xerox machines model 5042 make change for $1.00 themselves.  And
though we still get asked for  changed for 5 and 10's it is far less
then it was before.

Mary ANn Wachowiak
Law Library
SUNY at Buffalo
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Date:         Thu, 21 Jan 1993 15:21:31 EST
              <CIRCPLUS@IDBSU.BITNET>
From:         Sheryl Owens <sowens@MAGNUS.ACS.OHIO-STATE.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Circ/Access Services Discussion Group Mtg in Denver
              SLAUENWHITE" at Jan 21, 93 12:39 pm

     Never!  We have to haave someone to look up to!  I've also suggested an
electornic version.  I really don't care which, just that something exists.
Thanks.

>
> On Sheryl Owens suggestion for a print version of CircPlus:
> Great idea !
> Don't forget us Canadians, eh ?
>
From: blackwoods@vms.csd.mu.edu
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.circplus
Subject: MLS debate rages on
Date: 28 Jan 1993 19:37:30 GMT
Organization: Marquette University - Computer Services
Reply-To: blackwoods@vms.csd.mu.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: vmsa.csd.mu.edu

While the Library of the Future may, indeed, not look like that of the past 
or even today, I need to be convinced that working in Circ would ever require
an MLS degree. I'm not even convinced that Reference Librarians or Catalogers
need MLSs. (How's that for subversive thinking.) I think that,as far as
Circulation is concerned, it depends on whether the site is Academic or 
Public. It MAY be appropriate that in a University Library, some higher level
of education would be desirable, if only to help the Circ worker or super-
visor better understand the environment. However, on the pure mechanics of
the job, something as "grand" as an MLS wouldn't be necessary. I come from
a school of thought that Librarianship is not a true profession but a skilled
trade. A College education would be desirable for this trade but after that
a prospective librarian would be "apprenticed" to a Master Librarian. Call
me medieval but I believe that the work world could benefit from the old
guild system. Libraianship would definitely benefit. Such a system would   
value experience as first among many qualities essential to a productive 
worker.
Steve Blackwood
Marquette University
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.circplus
Date:         Wed, 27 Jan 1993 13:11:00 EST
              <CIRCPLUS@IDBSU.BITNET>
From:         GEFFNER@SJC.BITNET
Subject:      freedom of speech

On every list I join it seems as if certain members take on the list
moderating task for themselves, telling other members what is
appropriate or not for the group to discuss.  Whether chatting is or
isn't permitted on this list, or whether discussions on professional
credentials are a waste of time is for the moderator to decide I
believe.  Frankly, the volume of mail is very low here compared to
other groups, although I realize some sites are charged for each
piece.  It is ironic that those in a profession which defends free
speech and freedom of ideas uses professionalism as an excuse to
limit discussions they find uninteresting/threatening.

While, I do myself try to respond personally to many messages rather
than to the group, should a subject arise for group chatting,
such as a television portrayal of circulation, even a minor flaming,
I will not feel constrained from participating due to someone's
personal opinion.  Frankly, users can use the DIR command in mail
to get a list of the subjects and can delete so-called inappropriate
pieces at will.  Also, some people may be sending this mail accidentally
by typing reply instead of send.

Let's try to practice the tolerance we supposedly stand for.

Ann Williams, Circulation Supervisor
Saint Joseph College

P.S.  By the way, feel free to complain any time you wish--it's your
right to express your feelings and to act upon them, just as it is
mine, although I do not have an MLS!
From: blackwoods@vms.csd.mu.edu
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.circplus
Subject: MLS degree
Date: 28 Jan 1993 14:22:09 GMT
Organization: Marquette University - Computer Services
Reply-To: blackwoods@vms.csd.mu.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: vmsa.csd.mu.edu

Although Mojave Rusty is usually all "wet" politically, his serious post
about whether one should pursue an MLS is right on target. An MLS       
education can at least have the value of exposing one to other facets of 
libraries. On the other hand, as Rusty says, if you have no need and/or
desire to pursue an MLS degree, don't bother. You can always take a course
in an area of interest: your employer may even pay for it!
Steve Blackwood
Marquette University
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.circplus
Date:         Fri, 22 Jan 1993 19:12:04 LCL
              <CIRCPLUS@IDBSU.BITNET>
From:         Bob Jones <BJONES@UNF1VM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: ATMs in libraries
              21 Jan 1993 10:45:05 -0600 from <katea@UNLLIB.UNL.EDU>

I don't know about Nebraska, but in Florida a remote ATM must either be
owned/licensed/bonded by a chartered bank or the institution must
qualify as a banking institution (or equivalent) in accordance with
specific rules.  Is your library 'rich' enough to maintain the
thousands of dollars it takes to stock such a machine? ... and the
bookkeeping ...and the security ...and the responsibility ...and
the maintenance ...and the refunds for malfunction ...and the armored
truck to carry the money to/from the bank ... No way would I
undertake such a project|

Bob Jones   (904) 646-2552 : SUNCOM 861-2552 : FAX 904-646-2719
Head, Public Services Division, and Library Systems Coordinator
University of North Florida Library              P.O. Box 17605
4567 St. Johns Bluff Road, South         Jacksonville, FL 32245
BITNET: BJONES@UNF1VM  ::   INTERNET: bjones@unf1vm.cis.unf.edu
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Date:         Mon, 25 Jan 1993 15:44:24 EST
              <CIRCPLUS@IDBSU.BITNET>
From:         Penelope <P-MYERS@TEMPLEVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: ATMs in libraries
              21 Jan 1993 10:45:05 -0600 from <katea@UNLLIB.UNL.EDU>

We just had installed in our main library, it was on orders from the University
Business Office.  We weren't initially thrilled, however it's been great ( for
library staff particularly!).  There really have been no problems.  It is not
a deposit site, therefore the transactions are quickies, and there's no trash
from deposit envelopes.  There's a large sign on the machine that tells them
to call the bank if there's a problem.  There is very rarely a line and if
there is it moves quicly.

Penelope Myers
Temple University
215 787 7901
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Date:         Fri, 22 Jan 1993 10:59:00 CST
              <CIRCPLUS@IDBSU.BITNET>
From:         "Linda R. Cobbs" <COBBSL@BAYLOR.BITNET>
Subject:      A Good Friday to All

Fellow "Circie's" -- of whatever political persuasion of whatever degree!

Have a good Friday.  I am feeling mellow since I do not have to come to
work tomorrow -- unless a crisis comes up (and it probably will!)

I did vote in November, but I cannot remember who I voted for.  I
mean...the candidates forget their campaign promises; so why should I
bother to remember their names!

I like cats and chocolate.  I do have an MLS, but that's not the
qualification that is most important for my job.  I am completely and
certifiably insane; therefore I have endured for 15 years in a position
that absolutely no one in his right mind wants!

And, Bill, (the mad bicycle rider?) I ride and adult tricycle since I never
mastered the skills needed for a 2-wheeler!

Have a good weekend, y'all!

Linda Cobbs
Baylor University
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Date:         Thu, 28 Jan 1993 11:51:52 -0400
              <CIRCPLUS@IDBSU.BITNET>
From:         BILL SLAUENWHITE <BSLAUEN@AC.DAL.CA>
Subject:      Re: freedom of speech

How right you are Ann ! (and I don't have an MLS either )

Bill Slauenwhite
Circulation Supervisor
Dalhousie University
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Date:         Fri, 22 Jan 1993 18:47:59 EST
              <CIRCPLUS@IDBSU.BITNET>
From:         CXSN000 <CXSN@MUSICA.MCGILL.CA>
Subject:      Overdue fines

At McGill University, Montreal, Canada (the Harvard of the North)
fines are:

Reserves:     1/minute
Circulation:  25/day for general collection
             $1.00/day for recalls and for periodical vols.
             no maxiumums

Suzy Slavin, Social Sciences and Humanities Library
recently returned from exchange at Griffith University in Brisbane
(perfection) Australia.  It was great......

cxsn@musica.mcgill.ca
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.csg-l
Date:         Tue, 26 Jan 1993 08:45:20 EST
From:         "Bruce E. Nevin" <bnevin@CCB.BBN.COM>
Subject:      Gaian PCT

[From: Bruce Nevin (Tue 930126 08:31:56)]
(From Greg Williams (930126) ) --

A number of months ago I tried to show (though "showing"
something involves 2-part harmony) that control systems of a
given order (e.g. cells) are necessarily oblivious to the means
by which they implement ECSs and their perceptual signals,
hierarchies of perceptual control, etc. in control systems of the
next higher order (e.g. animals and plants).  The same principle
applies to the Gaia hypothesis.  The means and terms of feedback
are obscured for us, through evolutionary selection, because if
they became more evident to us as perceptions they might become
controlled perceptions, which would ruin us as constituents of
the (postulated) higher-order control systems.  Disclosing what
is going on behind this veil must be undertaken very carefully.
The bicycle might fall over (our participation in effecting
perceptual control in a control system of order Gaia, as
byproducts of our individual control in face of ecologically
coordinated environmental disturbances).  If humans be analogous
to cortical brain cells, the analog of epilepsy might ensue for
gaia.  Indeed, we may be in the fringes of that now.

All of which is not proof of course, but only an argument for
the plausibility of the hypothesis.

        Bruce
        bn@bbn.com
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Date:         Tue, 26 Jan 1993 21:54:39 -0700
From:         Ed Ford <ATEDF@ASUACAD.BITNET>
Subject:      CSG Conferences

from Ed Ford (930127:2153)

Gary and Greg, thanks for the input.

Our CSG conferences - What's happened over the years is that we
have become a close family, and the sense of closeness is something
very special.  As a very practical person with a non-scientific
mind, at first I was at a loss and overwhelmed by what was being
talked about.  It was the patience and kindness of the scientists
in the group that helped me not only to understand PCT, but feel a
part of the CSG.  It has been with the help of others that I've
been able to take PCT and use it in my own day to day work both as
a consultant in schools, corrections, etc. and in my counseling
practice.  What I'm trying to say is that it never occurs to CSG
members to look down at someone because of their limited abilities
or understanding of CSG or to segregate them into another group.
Everyone accepts you and respects you, even as they differ or
challenge what you say, but urging you along, showing all kinds of
confidence in your ability to learn more.  A mutual respect and
need for each others talents for the benefit of all has grown
evident over the years.  For those like myself, that's a powerful
experience.

Ed Ford ATEDF@ASUVM.INRE.ASU.EDU
10209 N. 56th St., Scottsdale, Arizona 85253  Ph.602 991-4860
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Date:         Mon, 25 Jan 1993 10:25:57 -0800
From:         Marken@COURIER4.AERO.ORG
Subject:      Nice Guy?

[From Rick Marken (930125.1000)]

Bill Powers (930125.0800) --

>Rick Marken said "If (as I suspect) all they want is impressive
>surface appearances (the Disneyland syndrome?) then we don't need
>to waste our time ..."

>And you [John Gardner] said
>>Ouch.

>I say ouch too. Look before you leap, Rick.

See. I'm not really that nice.

My only excuse is that I had no specific person in mind when I
referred to "they". I also didn't mean to imply that there is anything
wrong with wanting to create impressive surface appearances; I
would like to be able to do it myself.  I was just trying to point (not
jab) to the difference in emphasis (that I see) between current
robotics (as I understand it) and the PCT approach to robotics
(such as it exists). The current approach to robotics seems to be
oriented towards building machines that produce certain perceptions
(surface appearances) FOR THE ROBOTICIST. The PCT approach
would be oriented toward building robots that produce certain
perceptions FOR THEMSELVES and, as a side effect, produce
interesting perceptions for the PCTer. Another way to look at this
is that the PCT approach would be to find perceptions which, if they
were controlled by a robot, would tend to produce the
"impressive surface perceptions" desired by the PCT roboticist.

So I apologize to John Gardner for creating the disturbance that
caused the "ouch". My comments were not aimed at you (or anyone
in particular). They were just a clumsy attempt to distinguish the
goals of PCT from what I might mistakenly believe to be the goals
 of robotics.

Best

Rick
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Phone: +1 602 963 6474
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Date:         Sat, 23 Jan 1993 04:30:16 GMT
From:         rljackson@ATTMAIL.COM
Subject:      Bill... PCT demos for a Mac?

[from Ray Jackson 930122.2130 MST]

for Bill Powers

Bill,
I was over at Ed Ford's house today, and during my visit, he showed
me your crowd, arm, and demo 1 and 2 software on his PC. This
was the first time I had seen these AMAZING demonstrations, although
I had heard them mentioned many times on the Net. The illustrations
provided by the demos are both enlightening and thought-provoking;
I'm still thinking about them.

I am very interested in obtaining this software for future learning,
teaching, and reference -- if it's available in a MAC format. If
it's not in the Mac format, is there something I can do to help make
that happen? Also, is there a summary of sorts explaining the
specifics of the software and how to use it?

Thanks Much,
Ray

********************************************************************
Ray L. Jackson
3613 W. Saragosa St.
Chandler, AZ 85226
rljackson@attmail.com
********************************************************************
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Posted-Date: Wed, 27 Jan 93 07:52:50 -0800
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Date:         Wed, 27 Jan 1993 07:52:50 -0800
From:         Marken@COURIER4.AERO.ORG
Subject:      Re: meeting publicity

[From Rick Marken (930127.0730)]

Bill Powers (930127.0100)--

>This is a bit difficult because I'm trying to avoid rejecting
>anyone who would like to attend while sort of discouraging
>attendance by people who may have a completely wrong idea of what
>we're interested in (like that guy who posted a request for help
>with his traffic problem). I should think that anyone on CSG-L
>would certainly know enough to judge whether the meeting would be
>worth attending, and would fit right in. You don't have to agree
>with us, but it's always better if you understand exactly what
>you're disagreeing with. And you don't have to be an expert in
>control theory either to be taken seriously.

>Let's hear a few other opinions. Then you do what you think is
>best.

I like the self-selection process for meeting attendance. I
would really like to see more dissenting opinions at the
meeting (though it's not like we all sit around and nod in
agreement). But, as Bill said above, it's really best to have
people who understand what they are disagreeing with. So I
would vote for just making it known that CSG-L (and related
publications) exists; if, after reading it for a while, any-
one feels that they would like to learn or contribute more
(or set us straight) by attending a meeting, then that would
be great.

Avery Andrews (930127.1710) re: Abbs and Winstein in
M. Jeannerod (ED) Attention and Performance XIII,Hilldale,
Erlbaum, 1990

>I had a look at it, and didn't find the discussion about speed silly
>at all.

I probably based my statement on scanning the article and
seeing a few statements about "motor programs". I'm glad
if they said some sensible stuff about feedback timing; now
if they could only get the idea that feedback is what is
controlled.

Best

Rick
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Date:         Thu, 21 Jan 1993 13:51:25 EST
From:         mmt@BEN.DCIEM.DND.CA
Subject: Re: Multiple directions; arm models

[Martin Taylor 930121 13:40]
(Bill Powers 930121.0830)

>I can see perceptions being made of individual contributions from
>many individual direction-detectors aimed in different
>directions, but when it comes to output the available directions
>are limited to the degrees of freedom of the arm.

Of course.  But which basis functions should be used to describe those
degrees of freedom need not be fixed over time.  That's the basis of the
attention-fluctuation argument, after all.  We used to be well agreed on
that.  Even if the output directions were fixed over time, it is highly
unlikely that they would be fixed to a particular x-y direction in a plane
at some arbitrary orientation with respect to the head and body.

>Exactly orthogonal control is not necessary; if there is a slight
>deviation from a 90-degree angle between the axes, motion in one
>axis simply disturbs the other axis a little, and the control
>system on the other axis cancels the disturbance by normal means.

Naturally.  No problem.

>>So, to enhance the model, I would put more ECSs, which look at
>>error in different directions, rather than impute to the human
>>an ability to rotate the space.
>
>You'd better work out an example; this just looks like a great
>opportunity for conflict to me.

Well, it's the kind of conflict you have previously called "muscle tone."
Not entirely a bad thing.  In a well distributed network, there's conflict
all over the place.  We know that, and (in my view) it prevents the
hierarchy from getting frozen, keeping at least a low level of reorganization
going.  It's the equivalent of annealing in conventional neural networks.
Helps the control hierarchy from getting stuck in local minima.

>>If one does make a model with more ECSs, there are more degrees
>>of freedom with which to fit the data, which makes it more
>>difficult to determine whether the new model is an improvement
>>over the old.
>
>Slow down. First demonstrate that such a model would work at all.
>Then worry about degrees of freedom.

I think Rick is doing that.  If he isn't, I will, using his stack, the
revised version of which he has kindly sent me (but I haven't got it
onto the Mac yet).

Martin

PS. Re Durango: would it be helpful to propose a voluntary fund for the
purpose of subsidizing students to attend?  I assume that the fee you set
is calculated to allow for the three subsidies provided that you get the
anticipated number of attendees.  If you had an additional fund you wouldn't
need to worry about how many people come.  I'd be happy to contribute, and
I would be surprised if you didn't find a few more.
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