HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: flax@frej.teknikum.uu.se (Jonas Flygare)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Is Zionism a form of racism?
Date: 13 Dec 1992 15:43:11 GMT
Organization: Dept. of Control and Systems, Teknikum, Uppsala
Distribution: world
Reply-To: flax@mizar.docs.uu.se
NNTP-Posting-Host: frej.teknikum.uu.se

In article <1483500310@igc.apc.org>, cpr@igc.apc.org (Center for Policy Research) writes:
|> 
|> 
|> The story  in the beginning of this conference has been published in the
|> Israeli newspaper Hadashot 14. Sept. 1990 i0.
|> It was writeen in Hebrew by a racially pure Jew, a bona fide Israeli
---------------------------------^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Thank you! Thank You for showing your true beliefs. 
You mean there is such a thing as 'race', and even 'pure' and 'impure' 
race at that? Could you do me a favor and define the term 'race'?
I'd say that you just lost about all credibility you might have. 
I'd appreciate if you took your rubbish shomewhere else.
Are you so imbecile that you need to label humans by 'race' to be
sure you don't mistake 'them' from 'us'? Yagh! Is this Center for
Policy Research mayhaps sponsored by the IHR? Is that you Maynard?

You might (might, mind you) want to say that people have different
ethnic background, but that only tells me where they have their 
roots, culturewise. 

As long as people like you claim there are 'different' humans we will 
never get the human race anywhere.

Frankly, I'm disgusted.

Now, as for the rest of the story. You claim a lot of things. Can I
have references, please? Were they forbidden to apply for citizenship
like any non-jewish immigrant to Israel? The law of return is unique 
in that it automatically allows jews back to Israel, it does not
forbid others to move there. Any person emigrating to another country
may be denied entry. (Coming as a refugee is another matter, sorting 
under the country's _policy_ on that matter.) Would you mind sorting
out exactly _what_ you are striving at?


--------------------------------------------------------
Jonas Flygare, 		+ Wherever you go, there you are
V{ktargatan 32 F:621	+
754 22 Uppsala, Sweden	+
From: "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com>
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: burg survey
Date: 14 Dec 92 13:37:11 EST
Reply-To: "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com>
Distribution: talk
Organization: Channel 1 Communications

To: Josh Backon

Nice, informative post regarding the Burg survey.

Do you have the exact quote in which Burg retracted his
analogizing of Israeli with German racism? I don't doubt you for
a second, but it would be useful from a documentary standpoint to
get his words on the record as a counterpoint to the UPI clip I
posted.

I like your proposal for offering Palestinians Israeli
citizenship along lines similar to American practices. That might
be one possible solution to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.
Would Israelis buy it? Would Palestinians buy it? I wish they
would, but I doubt it.

 JB> I assure you Wayne that if residents of Roxbury attacked the
 JB> Irish residents of South Boston with ONE-TENTH the  ferocity
 JB> shown by the Palestinians here, there would probably be a
 JB> blood bath.

You're right there, Josh; it would be holy hell. But I suspect
the Irish residents of South Boston would by every means possible
try to avoid a situation in which they were attempting to hold
down a hostile alien population under a legal system as
oppressive as the Defense Emergency Regulations. I understand
that Israel doesn't want to be in this situation, but the facts
are that no human beings, if they are fully human, will endure
living under such a system for very long. Somehow a way has to be
found to give the Palestinians full human and civil rights
without imperiling Israel's security.
---
  OLX 3.0 31-2557  messianists: will blow up the world if laughed at
--
Channel 1 (R)   Cambridge, MA
From: "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com>
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: israeli racism
Date: 20 Dec 92 10:48:04 EST
Reply-To: "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com>
Distribution: talk
Organization: Channel 1 Communications

<knotes>

<o>#clip

<des>

     Former Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir says the Arabs
     have no respect for human life and enjoy murder. (UPI
     12/16/92)

<doctype>newswire article
<newswire>UPI
<date>December 16, 1992

<article>

<title>

FORMER ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER ACCUSES RABIN GOVERNMENT OF
CODDLING TERRORISTS

<body>

JERUSALEM (DEC. 16) UPI - Former Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir
accused the new Rabin government Wednesday of coddling
Palestinian terrorists, saying Arabs ''have no respect for human
life....They enjoy each murder.''

The hard-line Likud Party leader was ousted by Yitzhak Rabin in
June elections. He launched his blistering attack on the new
prime minister a day after troops discovered the body of a border
policeman who had been kidnapped and executed by militant
Palestinians from the Muslim fundamentalist Hamas movement.

''We are familiar with the Arabs for many centuries, from the
closest of contacts. We know that these people have no respect
for human life,'' Shamir said.

''They really like it, they desire it, they enjoy each murder.''

Shamir earned praise for taking Israel to the Middle East peace
talks that began in Madrid last year, but he was later rejected
by voters in part because of his inflexibility at the negotiating
table.

In an interview just days after losing the election to Rabin,
Shamir said he had hoped to drag out the talks on Palestinian
autonomy in the occupied territories for at least a decade.

During the opening Madrid conference, Syrian Foreign Minister
Farouk a-Sharaa called Shamir himself a terrorist, holding up a
wanted poster from the 1940s that carried the Israeli's picture.
At the time, Shamir was a leader of the Jewish underground, which
used terror tactics to fight the British mandate in Palestine.



=END=

</o>
---
  OLX 3.0 31-2557  A messianism addiction made him do it.
--
Channel 1 (R)   Cambridge, MA
From: arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Israeli soldiers kill Palestinian boy
Date: 17 Dec 92 03:15:11 GMT
	<1992Dec16.074456.14015@muddcs.claremont.edu>
	<1992Dec16.152557.26133@colorado.edu>
Organization: USC/Information Sciences Institute
In-reply-to: perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU's message of 16 Dec 92 15:25:57 GMT

In article <1992Dec16.152557.26133@colorado.edu> perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (Eric S. Perlman) writes:
>
> In article <1992Dec16.074456.14015@muddcs.claremont.edu> gmeltzne@jarthur.claremont.edu (Goof) writes:
> >In article <23066@venera.isi.edu> arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens) writes:
> >>
> >>"The claim is true"???  You [Perlman] claimed you "knew" of
> >>"numerous" such cases, and The New Republic is not exactly a neutral
> >>source with respect to Israel -- but no matter.  Let's see those two
> >>(2) cases.  Then we'll talk.
> >	
> >	This I find amusing.  In your above paragraph, you steadily lower
> >	the requirement to finding only one (1) example.  Now that Eric
> >	found one you require him to find 2 other.  Of course you probably
> >	don't count his example since the New Republic is "not exactly 
> >	neutral"  but somehow I expected you to discredit the source.
>
> Unfortunately, I expected this tactic from Dr. Arens.  When faced with
> facts, he either retreats, only to pop up later, after what's been
> stated has been forgotten, or attempts to discredit the source, based
> completely on innuendo.  If Dr. Arens wishes to impugn the source, I
> suggest he post a substantive reason why Mr. Emerson himself is a poor
> source.  Otherwise, considering that both the New Republic *and* the LA
> Times document this case - as witness Ron Evans' article on the subject
> - I think he is being seriously naive. 

What on earth are you talking about?  I made a brief comment about the
New Republic (are *you* saying it is even handed on Israel?), followed
it by saying that that didn't matter and that I was waiting for your
full response.

I can hardly imagine what in the substance of my message you found
objectionable.  More like you saw just another chance for a silly,
supposedly clever, attack.  I hope you had a good time.

--
Yigal Arens
USC/ISI                                                TV made me do it!
arens@isi.edu
From: c23st@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com (Spiros Triantafyllopoulos)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: re: Recalling in sorrow the victims of the supermarket massacre
Date: 17 Dec 1992 08:03:20 -0600
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Arxid) [The pride of AT&T, Hasan B Mutlu] writes:
re: Recalling in sorrow the victims of the Azeri Genocide.

(* >Having been in this country for 10 years (and having dealt with an almost
(* >infinite number of idiotic teenagers working as supermarket cashiers,
(* >all making cute remarks about Tri*'s name) I pretty much have learned to
(*  
(* Living things have been doing just that for a long, long time, "sipa of
(* delco". It's the "sipa" thing that I envy. Now, any comment?
(*  
(*      Armenian Soldiers Massacre Hundreds of Fleeing Families:
(*  
(*  'The Armenians just shot and shot. And they came in and started carving 
                                                                    ^^^^^^^
(*  up people with their bayonets and knives.'  A 45-year-old man who had been 
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
(*  shot in the back  said:' We were walking through the brush. Then they opened 
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
(*  up on us and people were falling all around. [...] 

Yea, one comment, Arxid Effendi... I just got a wonderful idea of what to
do the next time an idiotic teenager working as a supermarket cashier
makes cute remarks about Tri*'s name. How's this:

        Tri* Family Massacres Dozens of Supermarket Cashiers

'The Tri* family just shot and shot. And they came in and started
carving up teenage supermarket cashiers with their bayonets and
knives.'  A 15-year-old who had been shot in the back said:' We were
done weighting in the chickens and turkeys... Then they opened up on
us and people were falling all around. [...]

Any comments, Arxid Effendi?

Spiros
--
              ___        _____________________________
             |  o\__    | Ne mutlu anti-Argic diyene? | Beef: Real Food 
}}            \  __/ ___| Ne mutlu anti-Mutlu diyene! |       for Real People
}}}    ____   / /    \          (Old Turkish Proverb) |
}}}}__/}}}}\_/ /      \_______________________________| Feathers: Real Clothes
}}/  }}}}}}    \                                               for real Chicken
  \   }}}}   }}/                                              
   \__ }}____}/        Spiros Triantafyllopoulos        
      \ /              c23st@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com    
       |/_                                               
       '\               

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Israeli soldiers kill Palestinian boy
Date: 17 Dec 92 03:11:12 GMT
	<23066@venera.isi.edu> <1992Dec16.074456.14015@muddcs.claremont.edu>
Organization: USC/Information Sciences Institute
In-reply-to: gmeltzne@jarthur.claremont.edu's message of 16 Dec 92 07:44:56 GMT

In article <1992Dec16.074456.14015@muddcs.claremont.edu> gmeltzne@jarthur.claremont.edu (Goof) writes:
>
> In article <23066@venera.isi.edu> arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens) writes:
> >In article <1992Dec16.004724.8176@colorado.edu> perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (Eric S. Perlman) writes:
> >>
> >> In article <23061@venera.isi.edu> arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens) writes:
> >> >In article <1992Dec15.182856.23705@colorado.edu> perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (Eric S. Perlman) writes:
> >> >>
> >> >> ...  I do know that numerous
> >> >> PLO-affiliated activists who've stated even slightly non-standard
> >> >> opinions have been forced to seek protection from Israeli authorities
> >> >> not for being collaborators - which they're not - but just for speaking
> >> >> something that some party or other doesn't approve of.
> >> >
> >> >This often repeated claim is absolute nonsense, completely untrue.
> >> >...  Can you provide us ONE (1) example of a PLO-affiliated
> >> >activist who did no more than state a slightly non-standard
> >> >opinion, and as a consequence was forced to seek protection from
> >> >Israeli authorities?
> >>
> >> Steven Emerson, in the November 23,1992 edition of the New Republic,
> >> documented two such cases, Dr. Arens; I will be happy to post the
> >> information when I get home.  The claim is true.
> >
> >"The claim is true"???  You claimed you "knew" of "numerous" such cases,
> >and The New Republic is not exactly a neutral source with respect to
> >Israel -- but no matter.  Let's see those two (2) cases.  Then we'll
> >talk.
>
>  This I find amusing.  In your above paragraph, you steadily lower
>  the requirement to finding only one (1) example.  Now that Eric
>  found one you require him to find 2 other.  Of course you probably
>  don't count his example since the New Republic is "not exactly 
>  neutral"  but somehow I expected you to discredit the source.

Instead of looking for amusement, you would do better just to read what
postings say.  Mr. Perlman's claim was that "[He] do[es] know that
numerous PLO-affiliated activists who've stated even slightly
non-standard opinions have been forced to seek protection from Israeli
authorities".  I may have challenged him to find even one example, but
presenting such will only satisfy my challenge -- not even close to
documenting his *claim*.

Also, it was Mr. Perlman who "raised" me to 2.  I cannot help but notice
that his final inspection of the New Republic revealed that even they
could find only ONE (1).  And that one was from well over a year ago.
Pretty weak evidence for Mr. Perlman's claim itself, wouldn't you agree?

Is this amusing too?
--
Yigal Arens
USC/ISI                                                TV made me do it!
arens@isi.edu
From: gmeltzne@jarthur.claremont.edu (Goof)
Subject: Re: No Subject Line
Organization: Harvey Mudd College, Claremont, CA 91711
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 20:18:58 GMT

In article <1483500311@igc.apc.org> cpr@igc.apc.org (Center for Policy Research) writes:
>
>From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
>
>
>
>F O R      I M M E D I A T E     R E L E A S E
>=====================================
>
>We urge the international human rights community to endorse,
>support and disseminate the following call (with any necessary
>corrections or amendments). Its aim is to enforce the respect for
>humanitarian law and deter further commissions of war crimes by
>the Israeli government.  We would be thankful to obtain copies of
>any statements or letters of endorsement. The following call
>should be sent to all U.N. missions , the media and to members of
>parliament (in the U.S. to members of Congress).
>
>BEGIN OF TEXT:
>
>A Call for the Prosecution of Yitzhak Rabin for War Crimes and
>Crimes against Humanity

	That's right prosecute the man who represents the only
	chance for peace in the Mideast. Brilliant, absolutely 
	brilliant.



	geoff


>END OF TEXT
>
>The memorandum mentioned above can be found in
>- PeaceNet conference: mideast.levant and may be edited as
>needed.
>
>Center for Policy Research Post Box 1760 121 Reykjavik, Iceland
>Tel./Fax: (354)-1-26444
>
>17. December 1992


-- 
Email: gmeltzne@jarthur.claremont.edu            

A .sig?  A .sig? We don't need no stinkin' .sigs!
From: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Militant Foreign Nationalisms
Date: 14 Dec 1992 14:32:02 GMT
Organization: Australian National University
Distribution: world
Reply-To: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au
NNTP-Posting-Host: 150.203.23.70

In article 1gi2odINNdgv@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu, bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman) writes:

[stuff deleted]

>    You did not answer the question.

In article 1gi3f7INNdtt@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu, bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman) writes:

[SAME stuff deleted]
     
>     Thank you for answering the question.  

Kindly tell us why many of your postings are SO IMPORTANT that
we have to read them several times.   Are you on something?

Brendan.
From: arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Dual citizenship, US-Israel. (was Re: Kahane's philosophy)
Date: 17 Dec 92 02:14:34 GMT
	<Dec15.195516.63385@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU>
	<1glj5tINNr1u@early-bird.think.com>
	<Dec16.195218.16697@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU>
Organization: USC/Information Sciences Institute
In-reply-to: bh437292@longs.LANCE.ColoState.Edu's message of 16 Dec 92 19:52:18 GMT

In article <Dec16.195218.16697@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> bh437292@longs.LANCE.ColoState.Edu (Basil Hamdan) writes:
>
> In article <1glj5tINNr1u@early-bird.think.com>, shaig@Think.COM (Shai Guday) writes:
> |> Just one further question:
> |> 
> |> How does the U.S. State Dept. regard the following scenraio: A is a
> |> citizen of FOO.  A becomes a naturalized citizen of the US and
> |> swears his allegiance to the US.  FOO's laws state that FOO's
> |> citizens can not give up their citizenship.
> |> 
> |> One the one hand, he isn't a dual national, but on the other hand he is.
>
> I think this is exactly how the US State Department handles it,
> it just does not want to know about it, and won't do anytthing
> unless you clearly indicate an intent to be a foreign citizen
> as was the case in the Vance vs. Terrazas Supreme Court ruling.

I'm no legal scholar, but in the Terrazas case you mentioned, the
document signed in Mexico included an specific renunciation of US
citizenship.  That goes way beyond simply indicating one's intent to be
a foreign citizen.

There is no doubt that renunciation of US citizenship is possible
(although it may be revocable).  Terrazas may not have delivered the
document personally to the State Department, but did sign such a
statement.  A naturalized citizen who merely continues to make use of
the priveleges of other citizenships s/he holds (or even acquires new
ones< as in the other case you mentioned) appear not to be doing
anything to jeoperdize their US citizenship>
--
Yigal Arens
USC/ISI                                                TV made me do it!
arens@isi.edu
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.rights.human
From: makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky)
Subject: Re: Israeli Expulsion of 418 Palestinians
Reply-To: makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky)
Organization: Arizona State University, Tempe AZ
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 12:46:00 GMT

	[ I have deleted much of the article because I only wanted to
address one point - dlm ]

In article <1gqq8qINNgmf@agate.berkeley.edu> sag@hera.Berkeley.EDU (Steve Goldfield) writes:

# Under the fourth 1949 Geneva Convention, which covers occupied
# territories, the occupying power may not, under any circumstances
# whatsoever, expel residents from an occupied territory nor may it
# detain them without charges or imprison them outside the occupied
# territory. Collective punishment is also banned. It is also a clear
# violation of the convention to settle Israeli civilians in the West
# Bank and Gaza.

	First of all, the territories are not occupied.  They were
liberated by Israel in 1967.  However, there are some Jewish homes
(identified by mezuza holes - a mezuza is a Jewish ritual object) that
were stolen when all the Jews were either killed or expelled in those
territories that are occupied by Arabs.

	However, even if they are "occupied", the above is nonsense.
Throughout the entire evolution of the fourth Geneva convention,
including its official interpretations, it is clear that the Convention
does not prohibit all expulsions, despite the fact that the wording of
the convention may lead one to believe that.  As William Safire has
pointed out, the  convention only applies to Nazi style
massdeportations of innocent civillians.

	Now, even if this was a violation of the Convention, Israel (like
any other state) has to worry about the security of its own people
before even considering whether or not their actions meet any kind of
international law.  That is the obligation of any government.
--
	There are three types of people in the world.  Those that are good
at math and those that are not.

makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu
From: bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: TACIT APPROVAL?
Date: 18 Dec 1992 13:13:41 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: thor.ins.cwru.edu


   Can anyone help me?  I have been looking all over for any type
of criticism of Arab violence against Jews coming from the Muslim
community.  I have searched everywhere, looking for some example.
I have been trying to find some quote by a Muslim spokesperson or
Arab spokesperson condemning ANY act of violence or terrorism, if
the target was Jewish. And if, as I suspect, there does not exist
any such criticism, why not?
From: "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com>
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: israeli racism
Date: 20 Dec 92 10:48:04 EST
Reply-To: "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com>
Distribution: talk
Organization: Channel 1 Communications

If a recent former President of the U.S., like Ronald Reagan and
George Bush, had made the following public remark, can you
imagine the uproar?

     Ronald Reagan said Jews "have no respect for human life....
     They enjoy each murder. We are familiar with the Jews for
     many centuries, from the closest of contacts. We know that
     these people have no respect for human life. They really
     like it, they desire it, they enjoy murder.

It's extraordinary that someone who was just recently the highest
elected official in Israel, Yitzhak Shamir, can make a similar
statement about Arabs, with virtually no notice from the national
media in the U.S.

If the highest elected official of any other country in the
Western democratic world, a group to which Israel claims to
belong, had made such a statement, it would have been a huge
media event. If Margaret Thatcher had made this kind of remark
about the Irish, she would have been held accountable for it,
particularly by the media, even though the provocation from
particular Irish terrorists has been extreme (she has been a
direct target of their terrorism).

But Israel is a different case. The media are giving Shamir a
free ride, and are not asking tough and obvious questions about
how deep the racism runs in Israeli society if its highest
elected officials can make remarks like this with impunity in
Israel. To probe too deeply into this question could undermine
the whole foundation and rationale for American support of
Israel.

Any remarks that can be construed as anti-Semitic, however, like
Jesse Jackson's private comment about "Hymietown"--these become
full-fledged media events. Jackson was hounded about his remark
for years, as has been James Baker for his alleged indiscretion.
(One has to emphasize ALLEGED in this case, since the source was
Ed Koch.)

Flaming double standards, anyone?
---
  OLX 3.0 31-2557  Sort sources by credibility.
--
Channel 1 (R)   Cambridge, MA