HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: naftaly@supergas.dazixco.ingr.com (Naftaly Stramer)
Subject: Re: Rebel attack kills 5 Israeli soldiers, wounds 5 more
Reply-To: naftaly@dazixco.ingr.com
Organization: Dazix
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 18:00:50 GMT


In article <Nov.22.03.56.03.1992.10835@caip.rutgers.edu>, marwang@caip.rutgers.edu (Marwan Gharaybeh) writes:
>horen@netcom.com (Jonathan B. Horen -- [408] 736-3923) writes:
>
>>In article <Nov.13.14.52.22.1992.8862@caip.rutgers.edu> (Marwan ) writes:
>	
>>I think you misunderstood Shai's comment. That is, it is villagers --
>>and not children. Children, unfortunately, are the ones who have be
>>used (and abused) in these kind of terrorist games.
>
>Terrosist ???  Games ???? ... What is your definition of terrorism ?!!!
>I do not know too much about international law but I think that 
>a hero fighting  invaders to his own country is definetly NOT A 
>TERRORIST. When France was occupied by Nazi germany, the Nazis
>counted the inner resistance as terrorists and "saboutagists". The
>question is, How can those freedom fighters be counted within your list
>of TERRORISTS please please please please tell me how ?!!!!!
>
>Or maybe ... Lebanon is another part of israel that its god have
>
>--Marwan

So how come those "hero fighters" are not trying to push Syria out of Lebanon, 
especially after the Syrian announcement  from last week that they are not going
to leave Lebanon for a long time?

---
Naftaly Stramer (303)581-2370, FAX (303)581-9972    Intergraph Corporation
Internet: naftaly@dazixco.ingr.com                  Electronics Division    
UUCP: ..uunet!ingr!dazixco!naftaly  	            5101 Spine Road
Please excuse my English			    Boulder, CO 80301
From: c23st@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com (Spiros Triantafyllopoulos)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: More Pseudo Scholars in Action defending the Ottomans
Date: 22 Nov 1992 01:15:37 -0600
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic, actually AT&T's very own Hasan B Mutlu) writes:

> >How's this different from the forced religion changes caused by the
> >angelic Ottomans (tm)? 
> 
> Is this the "perlman-ian" of the week? The following observations by 
> Westerners were written in French by Ahmet Cevat: 

Does it make it more credible if it is in French, Mutlu? Is Mr. Ahmet Cevat 
a Turk or not? Nah, he's a Turk alright, but he's objective (in French!)

(* [Many patronising statements] These facts demonstrate that Muslim
(* countries provided spiritually far better living conditions than Christian
(* countries."[1]

And, 

(* On account of this, the autonomy of minorities in Turkey is better and 
(* more complete than any in the most advanced European countries."[2]

And,

(* Turks never oppress anybody on account of his religion. [3]

And, 

(* "In that vast and calm country of the sultan, all religions and nations are
(* living together peacefully. [4]"

Of course, "(*" is Turkiye's very own..... But some of Djevat's stuff was
actually written by A. Ubicini.... Any info on Signor Ubicini, Mutlu?

(* [1]  Ah. Djevat, "Yabancilara Gore Eski Turkler," 3rd ed. (Istanbul, 1978),
(*      pp. 70-71.
(* [2]  Ibid., p.91.
(* [3]  Ibid., pp. 214-
(* [4]  Ibid., pp. 215-216.

As usual, I won't challenge your statements above. I'll just challenge
you to produce a NON-Turkish source for any of the stuff above. I am
sure  I can read BAGDHAT NEWS or IRAQI FREE PRESS and see "objectivism"
all over the place about Iraq winning the MOTHER OF ALL WARS. But coming
from a country where freedom of expression is questionable at best 
newspapers being collected before publication,  movies, poems, Kurdish
language, etc all censored/forbidden until very recently, etc) I'd have
a hard time accepting Djevat Bey as anything other than a career paid
propagandist. 

> Serdar Argic

Surely, you jest.

Spiros


Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: tb13@ellis.uchicago.edu (leon joel gross)
Subject: Re: MEQ #23: Mufti meets Fuehrer [REVISED]
Reply-To: tb13@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 17:40:34 GMT

In article <1ei7nuINNp1n@manuel.anu.edu.au> bdm@cs.anu.edu.au writes:
>I have changed the wording of the note to make it less prone to 
>misunderstanding.
>
>      MEQ #23.  Der Fuehrer und der Grossmufti.
>
>   The Grand Mufti first thanked the Feuhrer for the great honor of
>   a personal reception.  He further wished to take the opportunity
>   to express his gratitude on behalf of the entire Arab world...
>
>   [Excerpts from a meeting between Adolf Hitler and Haj Amin
>   Husseini, Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, on 28 November 1941.
>   The notes were taken by Dr. Paul Otto Schmidt, a translator
>   in the Foreign Minister's Secretariat.]
>   [lots of stuff deleted]

Part of the discussion of this involved the transation of the German to
English.

Does anybody know if
	the Mufti understood German?
	if the translator translated for him in to English or Arabic?
	if there are equal ambiguities in Arabic?

Leon Gross
I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV.
From: bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Jonathan Pollard...
Date: 21 Nov 1992 17:27:35 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: thor.ins.cwru.edu


   Jonathan Pollard is a man who is condemned to prison, for the
rest of his life.  He was condemned to this fate for passing off
intelligence information to Israel.  It has been noted that this
data involved the increased efforts by Iraq to increase chemical
and biological warfare capabilities.  Much of the buildup in the
areas of Israeli civil defense was due to information which came
from Jonathan Pollard.  Our government's reaction to Pollard was
not only swift, but stunningly cruel.  And the sentence that was
handed down for his espionage was beyond previous sentencing for
similar crimes.  Israel is an ally of the United States.  It has
always been an ally.  In spite of the hysterical reaction on the
part of Mr. Casper Weinberger, Pollard NEVER committed the crime
of treason.  This dispicable crime is the act of selling secrets
to the enemy.  It is a crime that is considered so grave that an
individual can be put to death for it.  It is the crime that was
committed for years by the Walker family.  The Walker family was
engaged in the selling of defense secrets to the USSR for eleven
years.  The nature of what they sold to the Russians was of such
a comprimising nature that defense experts stated we wouldn't be
able to undo the damage for years.
   Jonathan Pollard provided information which the United States
had PROMISED to provide Israel anyway.  What he gave to our ally
in the mideast was information necessary for Israel to provide a
measure of security for itself.  In no way did Pollard engage in
any sort of activity against our country.  And yet he received a
sentence equal to that of those who have committed treason.
   Jonathan Pollard is a criminal.  He engaged in espionage, and
was convicted of this crime.  And though, as a Jew, I am glad he
did it, he must be recognized as a criminal.  As it is noted, if
you can't do the time, don't do the crime.  But the time must be
somewhat proportional to the crime.  The wrath of Weinberger was
enough to bring the weight of the federal geovernment down on an
individual who would never knowingly harm his country.  His fate
was the same as that of a genuine traitor's.
   I am at a loss to come up with what can be done at this point
in time.  But I do know that Jonathan Pollard must never be left
to rot away in prison, as if he was an American back-stabber, as
if he was a traitor like the Walker family.  We must continue to
seek a solution to this miscarraige of justice.  
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:22227 soc.culture.jewish:20304
From: eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf)
Subject: Re: Jonathan Pollard...
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 01:13:44 GMT

dan@jonas.berkeley.edu (dan graves) writes:

>In article <By4urF.1vn@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf) writes:
>|> 
>|> There is a difference between working against the U.S. for the benefit of
>|> Israel and protecting Israel by passing information which is crucial to her
>|> and not hurtful to the U.S.  Pollard felt that this information, which related
>|> to Iraq's chemical weapon program, was crucial to Israel - he simply acted his
>|> consciounse as both a good American and a good Jew.
>|> 
>|> Ed.

>The decision was not his to make.  If his conscience is clear because
>he felt he did the right thing, this does nothing to change the fact
>that he commited treason and compromised the security of the United 
>States.  As to his punishment: in sensible countries, traitors
>are executed.

What "sensible country" are you from?  What kind of damage did he do, exactly?
How does it compare to the damage done by the Walkers who didn't receive
punishment nearly that of Pollard.  Had the country not been Israel and had
Pollard not been a Jew, we would never have even heard of the case, just like
we haven't heard about all of the other British, French, and Egyptian spies
caught in the U.S.

>dan

Ed.

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein)
Subject: Re: Taif and Syrian withdrawal
Organization: NYSERNet, Inc.
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1992 02:40:05 GMT

gmeltzne@jarthur.claremont.edu (Goof) writes:

>In article <Nov20.175807.52756@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> bh437292@lance.colostate.edu writes:

>>	He said Hezbollah was among other Lebanese factions fighting the
>>Israeli occupation of southern Lebanon. ``This is a legitimate right for
>>every citizen in any country,'' he said.
>>	``If the French people had the right to resist the Nazi occupation,
>>why it is not the right of the Lebanese to resist the Israelis?''
>>Khaddam said.

>	Funny, they have a right to resist Israel, which occupieds 
>a small strip of Lebenon, but not to resist Syria, which Occupies the
>vast majority of Lebenon.  
>	Geoff

To add to the humor, they also have no apparent desire to resist the
Arab terrorists who have destroyed their country and whos attacks on
Israeli civilians are the only reason Israel ever came in to begin with.
-- 
Alan H. Stein   -----  AJIN   -----  astein@israel.nysernet.org
From: aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Shahzaadee)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Malik Shabazz, Islam and Anti-Semitism...
Date: 23 Nov 92 02:36:10 GMT
Organization: University of Colorado at Denver

In article <1992Nov18.031147.6811@panix.com> lkk@panix.com (Larry Kolodney) writes:
>In <1992Nov16.142553.15082@cs.brown.edu> dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) writes:

###Irrelevant.  This was a reaction to the creation of a self-declared
###Jewish state on land occupied by a signficant perccentage of non-Jews.

##Why is the expulsion of 800,000 Jews from Arab countries "irrelevant"?

#Because it happened after (and as a reaction to) the expulsion of the
#Palestinians from what became Israel.


[Etc. etc. etc.]

Excuse me for intruding, but what exactly does all of this have
to do with Hajj Malik Shabazz, Islam, and Anti-Semitism.

Funny how these threads get so carried away!

Could you please refer to the original subject matter or change
the name of the topic?

Shookran jazeelan.

Anisa

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf)
Subject: Re: Jonathan Pollard...
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 00:55:34 GMT

dan@jonas.berkeley.edu (dan graves) writes:

>In article <1ek55qINN6du@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>, bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman) writes:
>|> 
>|>    Jonathan Pollard is a man who is condemned to prison, for the
>|> rest of his life. 

>Rightly so; he is a traitor.  
>He sold top secret information about the security
>of this nation.  What was to be done with the information is 
>irrelevant.  Who he sold it to is irrelevant. He compromised the
>security of his country, therefore he is a traitor
>As far as i am concerned, he is lucky he was
>not executed.

How does information regarding Iraq's chemical weapons capability and sat.
photos of the PLO's headquarters in Tunis hurt U.S. security?  And, yes, it
does matter to whom the information is sold - there is a difference between
passing info to an ally and to an enemy.  Even if you don't think so, the U.S.
government does since they give out different sentences for spies for allied
countries and spies for enemies.

>dtg

Ed.

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Another Missed Opportunity
Date: 15 Nov 1992 23:57:34 GMT
Organization: Australian National University
Distribution: world
Reply-To: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au
NNTP-Posting-Host: 150.203.23.70

In article 18321@ennews.eas.asu.edu, makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky) writes:
>In article <1e4kihINN2f3@manuel.anu.edu.au> bdm@cs.anu.edu.au writes:

># In article 4966@ennews.eas.asu.edu, makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky) writes:

># >In article <1dijq5INNdgj@manuel.anu.edu.au> bdm@cs.anu.edu.au writes:
># ># Haha, I guess you didn't li[k]e the line "Jewish terrorists copied Arab
># ># terrorists", eh?  Btw, FTI says Deir Yassin was on the highway too.

># >	What line?  Not that I care.
 
># p354 and p387, respectively.

>	Of which?  FTI or M&F (NOT THAT I CARE).

I don't care either (at last we found something to agree on!).
However, just to continue this boring stream, both refs are to FTI.
The first quote actually reads 'There were "one or two occasions"
when it was said that "The Jewish terrorist groups...copied Arab
Terrorism,...especially at [the Arab village] Deir Yassin" in 1948..'.

Brendan.


Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: faris@sarcasm.trl.OZ.AU (Aziz Faris)
Subject: Re: MEQ #17: Ben-Gurion on Israeli expansi
Reply-To: a.Faris@trl.oz.au 
Organization: Telecom Research Labs, Melbourne,Australia
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 21:03:35 GMT

In article <1992Nov16.172820.16188@dazixco.ingr.com>, naftaly@supergas.dazixco.ingr.com (Naftaly Stramer) writes:
|> 
|> Israel occupied the Golan Hieghts only after Syria joined Egypt in a war against
|> Israel in 1967. 
|> 
|> 
 Israel wanted that war so badly that it would have invaded Syria regardless.
 Fortunately for Israel, you had people like Golda Meyer and Moshe Dyan who
 were patient and allow the Arabs to make a mistake.
 
 Israel invaded Lebanon in 82 because it wanted south Lebanon and could not
 wait for another war since the Arabs became smarter and avoided conflicts
 at all cost.
 
 A.Faris
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: MEQ #17: Ben-Gurion on Israeli expansi
Organization: The Department of Redundancy Department
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 92 16:33:21 GMT

In article <1992Nov17.210335.27283@trl.oz.au> a.Faris@trl.oz.au  writes:

> Israel invaded Lebanon in 82 because it wanted south Lebanon and could not
> wait for another war since the Arabs became smarter and avoided conflicts
> at all cost.
> 
> A.Faris

"The Arabs became smarter and avoided conflicts at all cost"???
You must mean like the Intifada in Jordan in which nearly 10,000
people were killed in one month, the PLO invading Lebanon, Iraq
attacking Iran, Iraq overruning and raping Kuwait, the PLO and Hamas
assasinating each other inside Israel in their own InterFada...  One
shudders to think what it might be like if the Arabs WEREN'T so
careful to avoid conflict. 

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com              10 years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions. standard of a failed President.
From: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Ashwari on Labor versus Likud
Date: 20 Nov 1992 08:44:37 GMT
Organization: Australian National University
Distribution: world
Reply-To: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au
NNTP-Posting-Host: 150.203.23.70

Interviewer:  
  Has the change of government in Israel made any appreciable
  difference for you?

Ashwari:  
  Well, initially it didn't make much difference because the Labour
  government immediately picked up where the Likud left off, but
  gradually we felt there were distinct changes that had to deal
  first with their willingness to actually negotiate on serious
  issues, which the earlier government did not want to do.  It was
  very clear that they did not want ... to negotiate on issues of 
  substance.  And, number two, they are not using ideological diction 
  or semantics that call for instance the occupied territories
  "Judea and Samaria".  They call it "territories".  They mention the
  unmentionable, for instance they call us "Palestinians" [smile]
  rather than "inhabitants of the territories".  This is the semantic
  level, I know, but at the same time they are beginning to explore
  areas of legislation and land that are essential to us and I think 
  that this is the most significant change.

[From long interview on Australian television, Nov 18 1992.  A senior
member of the Israeli delegation was also interviewed.  Both people
seemed to be far more optimistic than I expected.]

Brendan.
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Jonathan Pollard...
Date: 22 Nov 92 19:21:35 GMT
Organization: Aiken Computation Lab, Harvard University

In article <1en5q1INNlrd@manuel.anu.edu.au> bdm@cs.anu.edu.au writes:
>In article 1elri7INN896@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu, bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman) writes:

>>   Jonathan Pollard is a criminal.  He engaged in espionage, and
>>was convicted of this crime.  And though, as a Jew, I am glad he
>>did it, 

>I will save this for the next time you flame someone for suggesting
>that American Jews have dual allegiance.

>>         he must be recognized as a criminal.  As it is noted, if
>>you can't do the time, don't do the crime.  But the time must be
>>somewhat proportional to the crime.  
>
>I agree, and from what I've heard his penalty was harsher than other
>people received for similar things.  That is not acceptable, but it's
>a problem not limited to politically sensitive matters, nor to the US.

I'll save this for next time you suggest that Zionists should not
point out the behavior of other countries to justify Israeli actions.

>>His fate was the same as that of a genuine traitor's.
>
>Lots of traitors believe they are acting in the best interests of
>their own country.  Even if Pollard believed that (which is not
>clear to me) he is still a traitor.

His fate was worse than that of several genuine traiotrs, like the
Walker family, who sold secrets to the Soviets for years.

Adam



Adam Shostack 					adam@das.harvard.edu

What a terrible thing to have lost one's .sig.  Or not to have a .sig
at all because of elections.  How true that is.
From: zmood@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: : Rebel attack kills 5 israeli soldiers ...
Date: 17 Nov 92 18:38:46 +1100
Organization: Computer Centre, Monash University, Australia

In article <Nov.13.14.52.22.1992.8862@caip.rutgers.edu>, marwang@caip.rutgers.edu (Marwan Gharaybeh) writes:
> shaig@Think.COM (Shai Guday) writes:
> 
>>In article <Nov.12.13.22.59.1992.8164@caip.rutgers.edu>, marwang@caip.rutgers.edu (Marwan Gharaybeh) writes:
> 
>>I would like to point out one thing.  If the Hizbollah operates from
>>within villages, and is supported by the local populace, then how innocent
>>are these villagers?  If I am giving you food and shelter, doesn't that
>>violate my non-combatant status?
> 
> Let me go with your logic for a minute and see where this leads to. You
> are implying that the civilians are responsible and should be slaughtered.
> For example if we have a 6 year old boy living in a village where some of
> those resistanse heros live, then the Israeli vampires should thrive on
> this young boy's blood. Taking this screwed up logic why do we hear this
> loud critisim about terrorism since you say that civilians and militery
> are at the same level of responsibility ?!!!
> 

No, they should not harmed but yes, they are responible for their own actions.
The villagers, I would assume, know the nature of Hizbollah's activities and
therefore if they were to aid or give food and shelter to it members must
accept some risk, given the militant nature of Hizbollahs activities. However,
as the villagers are not involved in either Hizbollah's decision making process
or its guerilla activities, their harm should be avoided. 
	Irrespective of the knowledge of the villagers, Hizbollah should
refrain from involving potentially innocent villagers in their activities. Not 
everything is justifiable in the name of resistance.

As a point to remember, while the death of lebanese civilians is deplora-
ble so to is the deaths of Israeli civilians due to Hizbollah rocket attacks. 

May be the saying  " In war, nobody is innocent " is true ?  
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Subject: Re: MEQ #17: Ben-Gurion on Israeli expansi
Organization: Brown University Department of Computer Science
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 04:33:40 GMT

a.Faris@trl.oz.au  writes:

# Israel wanted that war so badly that it would have invaded Syria regardless.

A devastating argument. "If I wouldn't have come running to you with
the knife in my hand, you would have kicked my ba**s anyway".

# Fortunately for Israel, you had people like Golda Meyer 

Eh? Levi Eshckol was prime minister then, not Golda.

# and Moshe Dyan who
# were patient and allow the Arabs to make a mistake.

Fortunately, Israel had a strong army, so the prophecy of then PLO
leader Shukairy "we will let the surviving Jews return to Europe,
but my estimation is that non will survive" didn't fulfill.

-Danny Keren.


Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf)
Subject: Re: MEQ #17: Ben-Gurion on Israeli expansi
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 00:48:43 GMT

faris@sarcasm.trl.OZ.AU (Aziz Faris) writes:

>In article <1992Nov18.171803.14775@dazixco.ingr.com>, naftaly@supergas.dazixco.ingr.com (Naftaly Stramer) writes:
>|> 
>|> So now you became a furtune teller. Can you please tell me when I am going to win
>|> the lottery?

>After I win it.

>|> 
>|> The only reason Israel invaded PLO lend (now Lebanon) in 82 was the PLO forces 
>|> there and the terrorists attacks they launched against Israel. As for the Arabs
>|> being smarter to avoid conflicts, I hope this will continue so we will finally
>|> have peace in the area.

>Keep on wishing. Peace is only possible once Israel honors all outstanding UN
>resolutions and stops its Zionist and expansionist policy.

The same UN resolutions which I assume you are refering to also call on the
Arabs to make peace - something which they refuse to do.  Try being just a 
little bit objective here.

>A.Faris

Ed.
From: marwang@caip.rutgers.edu (Marwan Gharaybeh)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Personal question for Anwar (was: RE "Childish" ...)
Date: 21 Nov 92 18:13:17 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

anwar+@cs.cmu.edu (Anwar Mohammed) writes:




>Anisa, I'll support you 100% in your fight against such childishness!

A personal question for Anwar ... Anwar, after reading several of
your posts, I came to realize that you might be semi-educated.

Question is: Anwar ... Are you sure that you are an original Kuwaiti?

--Marwan
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast