From: daveb@pogo.wv.tek.com (Dave Butler)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Calvinism (was: *I* am THE way.)
Date: 20 Aug 92 20:43:44 GMT
Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Wilsonville,  OR.

It has been a long time since I have been criticized for presenting good
arguments and being willing to present references, but that is seems to be 
exactly what Steve Gross is complaining about:

> ---- REALLY DAVE, Are you quite through showing everyone here how
> brilliant a debater you are.  I certainly am impressed.  

and

>   I don't want to argue this point with you, as you seem 
> to be poised for a fight which you would obviously protract with endless
> quotes from people who I don't read, and have no desire to read....
> Find someone else to argue with.

Well if Steve Gross' indictment against me is that I use good arguments and
even present references, I can only hope that I am guilty as charged.

Now Mr Gross, you seem to assert that I am arguing against Calvinism simply to
argue, and also to pick on you and just generally piss you off.  You do not
seem willing to admit that I might be arguing against Calvinism, even your
pseudo-Calvinism, because I find it both flawed and even repulsive.  I am
sorry to relieve you of you illusions, but you are in no way important enough
to me, so that your merely voicing an opinion somehow mysteriously compels me
to persecute you.  When I find Calvinism presented as the "One True Way," I
react by showing both its logical flaws and logical results.  That is because
I consider the Calvinist doctrines to be flawed and repellent.  A god who
creates a race of billions, makes them incapable of doing good or of finding
salvation, and then chooses to torture the majority of them for all eternity
for that inability to do good or choose salvation, fits the definitions of
"vile" and "repellent" quite well.  In my judgement, such a god is no better
than the god of the Aztecs, who demanded living human hearts as sacrifice. 
Also, in my judgement, such a god is not worthy of worship; I could not give
obeisance to a god that condemns people to eternal torture, simply because, in
your words Mr Gross, there would be no fun in sending everyone to heaven. 

Now Mr Gross, you wish to terminate this discussion, and I feel that this is
probably a good thing, as you show to show neither the interest or ability to
having a coherent discussion on Calvinist beliefs, or for that matter even
your own pseudo-Calvinist beliefs.  Your own theology and oscillates wildly
between mutually exclusive Calvinist and Arminian doctrines.  As an example,
you recently stated:

> If God foreknew everyone, and knew that some would resist
> him despite all his efforts, then why should he put them in the situations
> mentioned above?  

This is a truly silly statement, as even you Mr Gross, have proclaimed that no
one can "choose god"; no one can even want to follow the Calvinist god unless
that god give us the saving grace necessary and sufficient to "want" to follow
that god. 

You also insist that in spite of the fact that only some can be saved, all
people, both the saved and the damned alike, should use the Bible as a guide:

> We have been given the Bible as a sort of guidebook, and we should live by 
> it.  As I have said many many many times before, predestination only 
> applies to Salvation.  

To me, your assertion makes no sense.  Why should those who are destined for
hell (not by their own choice), give a rip about a Bible given them by a god
who hates them so much that he will give them infinite torture.  Why should
the non-elect care what is in the Bible, or follow it?

Further Mr Gross, in spite of your recent denials of any proselytizing, you
*HAVE* condescendingly proselytized to the net. For instance, you proclaimed
that "liberality" (ie: Arminian thought) is:

    "not a gift from the Lord, for the enlightening of one's mind, but an
     extremely subtle trap for the weak minded."

and told us (and Mr Adam's in particular) that:

    "I hope that you will look into this area intellectually as well as 
     emotionally.  You will benefit, I'm sure."

And there is also the recent occasion you shouted on your keyboard to Steve
Adams, that salvation does not come from choice:

> --- Indeed He did give you an intelect Mr. Adams, but that plays no role
> in the  salvation process.  YOU HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH SALVATION.  IT is
> a free gift from God.   GIVEN by God, INITIATED by God, and COMPLETED
> by God.  You are not part of it.

This is definitely not a mere statement of position; it is very definitely
trying to convince others that your belief is the correct one.  In other
words, you were proselytizing.  You were not, as you recently claimed, merely
presenting your view for net perusal:

    "I have told you and everyone else what *** I *** beleive.  Not what is 
     mandatory for them to beleive to be saved."  

While it is true you have not stated that it is specifically mandatory, you
have labeled your position as being the true and beneficial position, and
labeled the opposing positions as being a trap for the weak minded.  Thus it
would be dishonest for you to claim that you were merely telling people what 
**** you *** believe.

Your blatant proselytizing is is what is drawing my opposition.  I am not
attacking you just for the fun of argument; I am attacking the position you
are (or were) proselytizing as I find it flawed and repugnant.  Now, if you
are no longer trying to present your position as being the "beneficial" and
correct position, then I see no reason to refute it.  If you now wish to
merely present your beliefs and make no claims as to verity, or proselytize
your belief, then aside from any fallacious argument you might present, you
may do so in peace.  On the other hand, if you do proselytize your position,
or use your theology to condemn others, then you will likely be drawn back
into this discussion on Calvinism. 
 
				Later,

				Dave Butler

    I'm sure that God could do something miraculous so that everyone would
    become saved, but where is the fun in that?
				Steve Gross