From: 16-Nov-1992 1103 <hakim@bigq.enet.dec.com>
Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai
Subject: Reply to "Question about Baha'i" in soc.religion.islam (2/2)
Date: 16 Nov 92 16:03:53 GMT
Article-I.D.: ogicse.46063
Organization: -

Continuation from part 1:
 
IC>3. Currently on soc.religion.bahai there's a thread about reconciling
IC>   Islam an Christianity. One major sticking point is the crucifixion
IC>   and resurrection -- the Bible says "Christ both died, and rose, and
IC>   revived" (Romans 14:9) 
 
NJ>The Bible also says:
 
NJ>'Remember that Jesus Christ of the Seed of David was raised from
NJ>the dead according to MY gospel.' (II Timothy 2:8) 
NJ>[Spoken by Paul, emphasis mine.]
 
NJ>'And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, [specifically, a
NJ>'false prophet'], shall be put to death ... ' (Deuteronomy 13:5)
 
NJ>'And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be put
NJ>to death, and thou hang him on the tree [eg. crucify him]:  His
NJ>body shall not remain all night upon the tree but thou shalt in
NJ>any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of
NJ>God;) that thy land be not defiled, which the Lord thy God
NJ>giveth thee for an inheritance.' (Deuteronomy 21:22-23)
 
NJ>Basically, if anybody bothers to read their Bible, they will find
NJ>that PAUL is the ONLY ONE who preaches the resurrection and
NJ>divinity of Jesus (AS).  Paul's teachings contradict the rest of 
                            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
NJ>the Bible, so one might well ask who is lying, Paul or everyone
   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
NJ>else?
   ^^^^

There is no need for anyone to have been lying. Perhaps the issue is
misunderstood. Actually Paul brings some sense into understanding the
rest of the Bible based on the Qur'anic prescription.
 
IC>   while the Quran says "and they did not kill
IC>   him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so" (Women
IC>   4:157) -- and the Baha'i say that this is due to a misinterpretation
IC>   on the part of Muslims, pointing out the disagreement between Muslim
IC>   scholars, etc. and saying that Isa p.b.u.h. *did* die on the cross
IC>   but that the Jews were simply not responsible for Allah let them, or
IC>   that they were only able to kill his body but not his soul, etc. (For
IC>   details see soc.religion.bahai.) What is the Muslim response to
IC>   this? 
 
NJ>Nevermind the muslim response, how about the intelligent one?
				  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 

How about an intelligent response Nicholas?

NJ>The Qur'an basically says that Jesus (AS) was neither crucified,
NJ>nor did he die, and that he was taken up ALIVE to Allah (SWT),
NJ>the same way Enoch and Elijah were taken up.  This is what the
						 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
NJ>words say.  
   ^^^^^^^^^

I hope you realize that you are implicating the most literal EQUALS the 
most intelligent in your reply. The most literal meaning of a particular 
arrangement of words -which is quite apparent to the eyes- is not 
necessarily the most intelligent one my friend. Don't you agree? 

NJ>If Jesus (AS) DID die on the cross, then this
NJ>contradicts the words of Allah (SWT):  'Nay, Allah raised him up
NJ>unto himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise....'[4:158]
NJ>Allah (SWT) doesn't say 'the Jews' didn't kill him, Allah says
NJ>THEY' didn't kill him.

Nicholas, you place too much faith in the appearance than the meaning.
Please consider the following:

"When Christ appeared, the Jews rejected Him, although they were expecting 
His manifestation and in their temples and synagogues were crying and
lamenting, saying, "O God, hasten the coming of the Messiah!"  Why did 
they deny Him when He announced Himself? Because they had followed ancestral
forms of interpretations and were blind to the reality of Christ.  They had 
not perceived the inner significances of the Holy Bible.  They voiced their 
objections, saying, "We are expecting Christ, but His coming is conditioned
upon certain fulfillments and prophetic announcements.  

Among the signs of His appearance is one that He shall come from an unknown
place, whereas now this claimant of Messiahship has come from Nazareth.  We
know his home, and we are acquainted with his mother. 
Second, one of the signs of Messianic conditions is that His scepter would 
be an iron rod, and this Christ has not even a wooden staff. 
Third, he was to be seated upon the throne of David, whereas this Messianic
king is in the utmost state of poverty and has not even a mat. 
Fourth, He was to conquer the East and the West.  This person has not even
conquered a village.  How can he be the Messiah? 
Fifth, He was to promulgate the laws of the Bible.  This one has not only
failed to promulgate the laws of the Bible, but he has broken the law of the
Sabbath. 
Sixth, the Messiah was to gather together all the Jews who were scattered in
Palestine and restore them to honor and prestige, but this one has degraded 
the Jews instead of uplifting them. 
Seventh, during His sovereignty even the animals were to enjoy blessings and
comfort, for according to the prophetic texts, He should establish peace to
such a universal extent that the eagle and quail will live together, the lion
and deer would feed in the same meadow, the wolf and the lamb would lie down 
in the same pasture.  In the human kingdom warfare was to cease entirely;
spears would be turned into pruning hooks and swords into plowshares.  Now we
see in the day of this would-be Messiah such injustice prevails that even he
himself was sacrificed. How could he be the promised Christ?" And so they 
spoke infamous words regarding Him.

Now inasmuch as the Jews were submerged in the sea of ancestral imitations,
they could not comprehend the meaning of these prophecies.  All the words 
of the prophets were fulfilled, but because the Jews held tenaciously to
hereditary interpretations, they did not understand the inner meaning of the
Holy Bible; therefore, they denied Jesus Christ, the Messiah.  The purpose 
of the prophetic words was not the outward or literal meaning, but the inner
symbolical significance.  For example, it was announced that the Messiah was 
to come from an unknown place. This did not refer to the birthplace of the
physical body of Jesus.  It has reference to the reality of the Christ -that
is to say, the Christ reality was to appear from the invisible realm- for 
the divine reality of Christ is holy and sanctified above place. 

His sword was to be a sword of iron.  This signified His tongue which should
separate the true from the false and by which great sword of attack He would
conquer the kingdoms of the hearts.  He did not conquer the physical power of
an iron rod; He conquered the East and the West by the sword of His utterance. 
He was seated upon the throne of David, but His sovereignty, was neither a
Napoleonic sovereignty nor the vanishing dominion of a Pharaoh.  The Christ
Kingdom was everlasting, eternal in the heaven of the divine Will. By his
promulgating the laws of the Bible the reality of the law of Moses was meant. 
The Sinaitic law is the foundation of the reality of Christianity. Christ
promulgated it and gave it higher, spiritual expression. He conquered and
subdued the East and West.  His conquest was effected through the breaths of
the Holy Spirit, which eliminated all boundaries and shone from all horizons. 
In His day, according to prophecy, the wolf and lamb were to drink from the
same fountain.  This was realized in Christ.  The fountain referred to was the
Gospel, from which the water of life gushes forth.  The wolf and lamb are
opposed and divergent races symbolized by these animals.  Their meeting and
association were impossible, but having become believers in Jesus Christ those
who were formerly as wolves and lambs became united through the words of the
Gospel. 

The purport is that all the meanings of the prophecies were fulfilled, but
because the Jews were captives of ancestral imitations and did not perceive the
reality of the meanings of these words, they denied Christ;  nay, they even
went so far as to crucify Him.  Consider how harmful is imitation.  These were
interpretations handed down from fathers and ancestors, and because the Jews
held fast to them, they were deprived. It is evident, then, that we must
forsake all such imitations and beliefs so that we may not commit this error. 
We must investigate reality, lay aside selfish notions and banish hearsay from
our minds. - 

		`Abdu'l-Baha,  "Promulgation of Universal Peace", p. 198

						Part 2 of 2

Please accept my apologies for the length of this reply.

Warm regards

Kamran Hakim