HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: dic5340@hertz.njit.edu (David Charlap)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: What is Jewish religion? (long...)
Date: 29 Jul 92 16:10:58 GMT
Organization: New Jersey Institute of Technology, Newark, N.J.

In article <1992Jul28.015412.2021@cs.uoregon.edu> pdm@majestix.cs.uoregon.edu (peter d. mark) writes:
>>     The Torah is given by HaShem.  Every letter and crown in it is 
>>     absolute truth,  
>
>evidence please?  after years of reading s.c.j and numerous other books
>about judaism, i have yet to see a convincing demonstration of this.
...
>orthodox jews with whom i have
>discussed these questions invariably admit that they accept god's 
>existence and the god-given nature of the torah purely *on faith*,
>not reason or logic.

All religion has an element of faith.  There is no way to logically
prove the existance (or non-existance) of God, so all religion is
illogical by that definition.

>there is a basic misunderstanding here of what constitutes the 
>"correctness" of mathematics.  in mathematics, propositions are
>correct (within a given axiom system) if they follow logically from 
>the axioms of that system.  different formal systems may have 
>different axioms.

Just like in mathematics, there are certain axioms which must be
present in Judaism.  One of them (at least for the Orthodox, I'm not
going to state what others may or may not believe) is the axiom that
the Torah is God-given to Moses at Sinai.

Just like you can't disprove a mathematical axiom without altering the
system, you can't disprove a religious axiom without altering the
religion.
-- 
   |)  David Charlap           "I don't even represent myself
  /|_  dic5340@hertz.njit.edu   sometimes so NJIT is right out!.
 ((|,)
  ~|~  Hi! I am a .signature virus, copy me into your .signature file.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: nmiller@starbase.trincoll.edu (norman miller)
Subject: Re: Discovery
Organization: Trinity College, Hartford, CT.
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1992 13:28:15 GMT

The silly season is with us again and very clown, mountebank
and snake-oil salesman in the land is looking for suckers.
Not to mention the gullible fools who repeat the nonsense,
complete with sound effects (gee whiz, no kidding, wow).

Someone wrote the other day asking for precise details.  He 
will never get them.  He will ask for concrete examples of
some of these spectacular findings.  He will never get them.

The people behind this scam also have a controlling interest 
in supermarket weeklies.

Norman Miller
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: janiceg@marvin.Eng.Sun.COM (Janice Gelb)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Mafdal and the Government
Date: 22 Jul 1992 18:24:30 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Distribution: world
Reply-To: janiceg@marvin.Eng.Sun.COM
NNTP-Posting-Host: marvin


Thanks to everyone who responded with more details on the Mafdal and
the government (hi, Gideon!).  I'm afraid my original post was not
worded well -- what I MEANT to ask was whether this was the first time
the Mafdal had not been involved in the formation of a government
coalition; I knew they'd quit in a huff from time to time.

********************************************************************************
Janice Gelb                  | (415) 336-7075     
janiceg@marvin.eng.sun.com   | "A silly message but mine own" (not Sun's!) 
********************************************************************************

Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: mer@zurlvm1.bitnet
Subject: Re: Travel on Tisha B'av
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 92 07:31:37 GMT
Organization: IBM T. J. Watson Research

>
> A friend is travelling to Italy during the first week of August.  She is
> returning on Sunday, 9 August, which is Tisha B'av.
> When does she fast?  When does she stop fasting?  I think she is leaving
> Italy Sunday morning and arrives at Kennedy Airport Sunday afternoon.
> Does she start fasting Saturday night Italy time or does she wait until
> it is time to satrt fasting in NYC?  And does she end her fast New York
> time or Italy time?  She really would rather not fast more than she has
> to. (What a surprise!)
>
> Does anyone have an idea?
>

If she is healthy, she probably has to fast about 31 hours total. She starts
Italy local time, and ends New York Local time. Since an 8 hour flight causes
significant dehydration, she should eat lots of grapes on the day before.

If she can avoid traveling on Tisha B'av she should. (Shulchan oruch).

If she has health problems she should consult a Rabbi.

Moshe Rappoport
From: rubinoff@linc.cis.upenn.edu (Robert Rubinoff)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: The Cost of Living Jewishly (was Re: O-C-R debate)
Date: 28 Jul 92 20:05:51 GMT
Organization: University of Pennsylvania

In article <1992Jul24.180420.7764@umbc3.umbc.edu> shimoff@umbc4.umbc.edu (Eliot Shimoff) writes:
>Sorry, but I just don't believe it.  I don't know of any Jewish
>day school or yeshiva that will refuse admission to a kid whose
>family simply can't afford tuition.

It's not that simple though.  What if you can afford the tuition, but paying it
means the difference between living a comftorable life with a few luxuries and
between constant scrimping and saving and never being able to save any money to
protect against sudden expenses.  I'm not talking about being able to drive a
fancy car and go off to fancy resort vacations for a month.  I'm talking about
things like being able to go out to a restaurant once a month, or to go visit
family once or twice a year.

Around here, the tuition for day schools is around 6-8 thousand dollars; if you
have three kids that's $25-30K per year.  For a lot of people, this means the
difference between being comfortable and able to save a little and being
desparately short of money.  Yet I doubt that a family earning $50K or $60K 
would want or be able to get much of a reduction.

Let's put it another way: the cost of sending three kids to day school is more
than half of the average gross family income.  That means that day school is an
expensive luxury for most people.  I realize that costs are high, and I don't
know what the solution is, but tuition reductions are not an answer, not when
more than half of the families would need them.

   Robert
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: MASH@WEIZMANN.WEIZMANN.AC.IL (Michael Shimshoni)
Subject: Anti Searching for Truth (was Anti Orthodoxy, was...)
Organization: Weizmann Institute of Science, Israel
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 92 14:45:22 +0300

 In: <1992Jul27.183841.657891@locus.com>
 hayim@locus.com (Hayim Hendeles) demonstrates why Nora is so right:

>In article <1992Jul25.211027.7040@midway.uchicago.edu> rivk@midway.uchicago.ed
>>
>>Basic argument I have with Orthodoxy is one I've already stated: who
>>decides what the Law means. I don't accept Talmud as being handed down
>>directly from G-d, nor do I accept the decisions of rabbis, ancient or
>>modern, as definitive. I accept the results of my own logic as definitive,
>>with all the rest being advice -- maybe very good advice, but only advice,
>>which I can weigh as my judgement dictates and take or leave according to
>>my own reasoning. In a lot of cases, the conclusion I come to is the same
>>as the halachic conclusion; but that's not because I'm "following" hala-
>>cha. I don't *follow* anything.
>>
>>	-Nora

Hayim's claims  at length against  human logic  as opposed to  the one
version  he  KNOWS to  be  THE  TRUE  JUDAISM, just  justifies  Nora's
aversion of sending her as yet unborn children to O schooling.

I shall skip most  of Hayim's argument as he really  sums it up neatly
towards the end:

>Furthermore, according to your philosophy, there can be no such thing
>as Judaism. Assume there are 20 million Jews in the world (for the sake
>of argument), if every Jew were to adopt "Nora Gayle Rivkis-ian"
>philosophy, there would be 20 million opinions as to what is "correct"
>--- I think even you will agree that not everyone thinks the way you
>do.  With 20 million different variations of Judaism floating qround,
>one for every Jew in the world, how can there be anything such as
>Judaism?

I am not  Nora's spokesman but I  am sure she does not  think that her
detailed understanding of  every item is the only  possible one.  What
Nora seems to object to is that there  is a group (in this case the O)
who think that they are the one's who have a direct line to the source
of all wisdom, and from it they know the absolute truth.  I understood
Nora to say that  she is struggling with her logic to  the best of her
ability to discover for herself what it means to be a Jew or to follow
Judaism these days.  If something some  of the ancient sages said does
not make  sense to HER, SHE  will not accept it,  obviously not saying
that everyone else has to think like she does.  Yes, according to such
a philosophy there may be 20M Judaisms  or only one, if one accepts as
Judaism the  attempt of  every individual  Jew to  find his  own truth
within the history  of the way Jews developed  their outlook.  Hayim's
views, of  accepting blindly  the views of  the ancient  sages without
using one's own brain, was already condemned by Yishayahu 29, 13.

What  Hayim   and  those   who  think  like   him  call   teaching  is
indoctrination, and that no one who searches for truth can accept.

>Hayim Hendeles

 Michael Shimshoni
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: dfs@doe.carleton.ca (David F. Skoll)
Subject: Re: The Cost of Living Jewishly (was Re: O-C-R debate)
Organization: Dept. of Electronics, Carleton University
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1992 00:47:58 GMT

In <EGGERTJ.92Jul24224958@moses.atc.ll.mit.edu>
eggertj@moses.atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert x6127 g41) writes:

>Indeed, my neighbor doesn't go to synagogue because, she says, they
>charge too much.  Especially on high holy days.

Sigh.  I was talking about *membership fees*, Jim.  And the cost of
kosher food.  Got that?

No synagogue would turn away people from services because they don't or
can't pay.  I routinely attend synagogues on High Holy days without paying
or with only a nominal voluntary contribution.

>This is in contrast to most Christian churches, which are supported by
>voluntary contributions.

I think Mr. Eggert doesn't know what he is talking about.  Every synagogue
I know of is supported by voluntary contributions.  If Mr. Eggert has
a counter-example, I'd be interested in hearing it, or having him
personally acknowledge his error in making the above statement.

--
                     |         | "Step up and shake the hand
David F. Skoll       | ||||||| |  Of someone you can't stand,
|_ _ _  __   __ _ __ |  \\V//  |  You can tolerate him if you try..."
 / |  | |_|   | |  | |  __|__  |  -- Tom Lehrer, "National Brotherhood Week"
_____|________________________________________________________________________
From: dfs@doe.carleton.ca (David F. Skoll)
Subject: Re: O-C-R debate
Organization: Dept. of Electronics, Carleton University
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 18:45:25 GMT

In <1992Jul24.181710.9844@umbc3.umbc.edu> shimoff@umbc4.umbc.edu
(Eliot Shimoff) writes:

>Yup, people react differently.  But the rate of assimilation and 
>intermarriage in isolated Jewish communities is so high that you've
>got to admit that you were the exception rather than the rule. 

Yes.

[DSkoll]
>>For me, it's a matter of economics, and to a certain extent,
>>principle.  I would hesitate to send my kids (if and when I have any)
>>to a Jewish day school because I want them to have contact with other
>>people of different races and religions.
>>

>Given our (my wife and moi's) educational expectations, it was clear
>that only a day school could do the job.  But consider the cost-benefit-
>risk analysis.  How likely is it that public-school+Hebrew-school
>will provide an adequate Jewish education?

It depends on what you mean by "adequate."

>How likely is it that
>a day-school education will make it impossible for a kid to interact
>with kids of other races/religions?

Not impossible, just less likely.

>What are the costs and probabilities
>of either type of error?

Nobody knows!  You're claiming that a day school education is more
likely to lead to continued Jewish identity.  Maybe that's true, and
maybe not.  What we need is hard evidence before we can talk about it
intelligently.

>Twenty years ago, when relatively few Jewish kids attended day schools,
>lots of parents figured that public school plus the home atmosphere
>would be enough to ensure that the kids would maintain the parents'
>religious commitment.  There is an adjective appropriate to describe
>many of those people: heart-broken.  They guessed wrong, and they see
>their grandchildren wandering from the path that they (the grandparents)
>cherish.  My heart goes out to them, but I cannot help them.

But you're making the "post hoc, ergo propter hoc" fallacy, at least
until you have evidence that the lack of day school rather than the
general change in society has caused this wandering.

--
                     |         | "Step up and shake the hand
David F. Skoll       | ||||||| |  Of someone you can't stand,
|_ _ _  __   __ _ __ |  \\V//  |  You can tolerate him if you try..."
 / |  | |_|   | |  | |  __|__  |  -- Tom Lehrer, "National Brotherhood Week"
_____|________________________________________________________________________
From: faigin@aero.org (Daniel P. Faigin)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: What is Jewish religion? (long...)
Date: 22 Jul 92 20:06:53 GMT
	<LERNER.92Jul22135203@division.cs.columbia.edu>
	<FAIGIN.92Jul22113722@soldan.aero.org>
	<1992Jul22.184751.16753@cbfsb.cb.att.com>
Organization: The Aerospace Corporation, El Segundo, CA

On Wed, 22 Jul 1992 18:47:51 GMT, hillel@cbnewsf.cb.att.com
(hillel.e.markowitz) said: 
> Does this mean that you do not consider Reconstructionism (which is 
> a belief in "Judaism as Civilization") or Humanism (which I
> understand as fully secular) as nonJewish beliefs?  Again once you
> move the line, how do you stop?

Personally, I have trouble with Secular Humanistic Judaism, but not with
Reconstructionism. For the sake of argument, let's assume the following are
the major movements: Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, and Reconstructionist. Is
there a common set of beliefs to all of these.

According to one poster in the liberal judaism mailing list, Reconstructionism
can be described as follows:

   Reform's differences from traditional Judaism are both theological and
   liturgical.  Reconstruction finds it much easier to live within the
   traditional liturgical forms but thrives on reinterpreting the forms
   (including the words) to fit contemporary conditions.  Thus a
   Reconstructionist congregation can more easily encompass a range of
   opinions because the service is more traditional.  Reform makes its
   differences from traditional Judaism more visible (but is sometimes not as
   radical in its reinterpretations as is Reconstruction).

Daniel

--
[W]:The Aerospace Corp. M1/055 * POB 92957 * LA, CA 90009-2957 * 310/336-8228
[Email]:faigin@aerospace.aero.org              [Vmail]:310/336-5454 Box#13149
	  "You mean on top of everything else, this ship is rigged?"
	     King Ferdinand, of Spain to Columbus (Stan Freberg)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: jgoldber@todah.chem.utoronto.ca (Joel Goldberg)
Subject: Re: Discovery
Organization: University of Toronto Chemistry Department
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 13:06:42 GMT

In article <1992Jul31.001631.682370@locus.com> hayim@locus.com (Hayim Hendeles) writes:
>It's a shame you didn't hear the same lecture presented by a Mathematician.
>
>Unfortunately, a layman's description of the codes to a scientifically
>inclined individual does indeed sound like mumbo-jumbo.  The converse
>is also true; a mathematician's lecture to a lay audience will also
>sound like a bunch of mumbo-jumbo. It seems in your case, you were the
>wrong audience for the speaker.

 Haim: I asked a question about this when it came up in
 mail-jewish, and now i'll ask it here. The core result of the study
 is the two column gadol/yahrtzeit date correlation. In order for
 me to be convinced, I need to have guidelines of how I can choose
 two columns of data by myself. Providing me with any other specific set
 of two columns doesn't help me.

 I would also like to know whether the codes proponents are willing to
 put their money where their mouth is (if you will excuse the colloquism.)
 There are all sorts of places in the torah where there are spelling
 "mistakes" and we read the word differently. Also, in a recent parsha,
 we read a list of names and tribes, listed in a repeated formula. There
 appears to be a word missing. 

 I would like to know this: Would the codes proponents be willing to
 run their tests (and I know they jumbled breishit) on the corrected
 versions and calculate statistical significance for both. If the
 corrected version is more significant, will they be willing to replace
 the masoretic text with it?

 The proponents have got to make the statement of money --> mouth
 before the tests are run, and they've got to simultaneously provide
 me with the guidelines, so that I can be sure they haven't cheated
 by means of a prior running of the tests before their announcement
 of acceptance.

 I'm sorry Hayim, but failure to agree to this means the proponents
 don't really believe either.

 joel.

 I will be away until Monday negotiating personal status/citizenship,
 so email should probably be used if you want me to see a response.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: lms@TorreyPinesCA.ncr.com (Max Stern 310-524-6152)
Subject: Re: One question
Summary: More than a few Jews like blue, too
Organization: NCR (Torrey Pines Development Center)
Disclaimer: This posting does not neccessarily reflect the opinions of NCR.
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 92 23:53:01 GMT

In article <1992Jul20.222655.6226@bony1.bony.com> jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni) writes:
>In article <1992Jul16.182140.23796@ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM> nabil@ncrcol.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM (Nabil Idriss) writes:
>>In article <1992Jul14.142833.14079@news.cs.brandeis.edu> abrams@binah.cc.brandeis.edu writes:
>
>>>Sometimes the eye in the center of the hand is blue.
>>>I think blue is also thought to be lucky or
>>>protective, since many doors and windows in Jerusalem
>>>are painted blue.  Again, I would assume that people
>>>maintain these superstitious customs out of respect for
>>>their history and origins, not because they believe in
>>>the evil eye.  
>
>>The above is correct. They actually sell blue necklaces (sp?) in the 
>>middle east with the above description. I remember back home that 
>>if a family have a very beautiful daughter, a good neighbour will 
>>tell the mother of that daughter to go and buy a blue necklace
>>and put it on their daughter to protect her from evil eye. 
>
>Last year, while on a tour of the Abu Moussa monastery in the
>Judean Desert, I was told that blue was considered a protective color
>by the Greek Orthodox and that this was why the roofs of the monasteries
>in the desert are painted blue.  Did I get something wrong or is
>this idea also shared by North African or Arabic people?

This idea is certainly shared by more than a few Jews.  Visit Tzfat
('Safed') and look at all the window frames, door frames, etc., painted
blue.  Ask someone why they are that way.

Tzfat isn't the only place where this is done -- I think I saw it
somewhere in Jerusalem, too -- but it's at least one place where it's
very common.

Is this a kabbalistic minhag?
-- 

 |\/|  /_\  \/
 |  | /   \ /\                              lms@torreypinesca.ncr.com
From: news@netnews.upenn.edu (USENET News System)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Meaning of O U
Date: 24 Jul 92 17:38:05 GMT
Organization: University of Pennsylvania

trademarked symbol of the Union of Orthodox Congregations of America (I think
I've left out a word in the title), informally referred to as the "Orthodox
Union", or "O-U".  One of their many activities is to provide supervision of
food production to ensure that it is kosher; food that has been supervised by
them carries the "O-U" symbol.
From: rubinoff@linc.cis.upenn.edu (Robert Rubinoff)
Many other organizations also provide kashrut supervision and have their own
symbols, e.g. the Star-K (a "K" inside a five-pointed star), the "O-K", etc.

In addition, food may be labelled with a simple "K", which just means that
*someone* claims its kosher.  The use of the "K" may be because the supervising
agency or Rabbi doesn't have a trademarked symbol, because the company may use
different supervision for different plants or different production batches,
because the company may want to be able to change supervision without having to
reprint labels, because the company is doing its own "supervision", because the
company doesn't want a fancy symbol cluttering up their labels, or for who
knows what other reason.  (It's also possible that the "K" may not even be
intended as a kashrut claim; I've heard a story (probably apocryphal) about
someone who bought canned food marked with a "K", and then the next month found
the same item marked with an "L".)  The bottom line with a "K" is that you
can't tell who's standing behind the kashrut claim just from the label.  Of
course, usually if you contact the company they will tell you, and there are
lists published in various places that indicate the information for some
products.  (For example, Kashrus Magazine frequently publishes such lists; but
of course supervision can change without warning, so you have to be careful.)

   Robert
From: murray.bbs@cybernet.cse.fau.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Food
Date: 29 Jul 92 20:54:52 GMT
Organization: Florida Atlantic University, Boca Raton

> The Hamakor Judaica Catalogue has it (list price). You should be able to orde
> it or but it at any GOOD Jewish Bookstore.
> 
> --- 
>  * Origin: WORLDS LARGEST strictly JEWISH BBS - (718) 756-7201
> (1:278/610)
> 

Is yours a FidoNet BBS?
From: chaim@linc.cis.upenn.edu (Chaim R. Dworkin)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: New List "Israel-Mideast"
Date: 28 Jul 92 02:15:33 GMT
Organization: University of Pennsylvania


 
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Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish