From: n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio)
Newsgroups: soc.men,talk.rape,alt.sex,alt.sex.bondage,talk.politics.guns
Subject: Re: Vigilantes
Date: 12 Dec 92 19:48:41 GMT
Article-I.D.: henson.1992Dec12.194841.8580
Followup-To: talk.politics.guns
Organization: Western Washington University

v117pdg8@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (DEMIAN) writes:

>I am not a liberal.  I have taken Sociology and believe that the reason people
>commit crimes is that there is a serious lack of LEGITIMATE opportunities witn
>this country for a portion of the population.  The American dream is one of
>success, financial security, and prestige.  I believe that crime results when
>there is a lack of opportunities to achieving these goals of society.  This
>does not make me a liberal sociologist as many would claim.  I believe in
>punishment and retribution and I don't claim that this explains all crimes-
>violent or non-violent.

	(first an inflamitory response to your "I am not a liberal 
socioligist" disclaimer:
	The basis of sociology is that individuals are puppets, and that
the cause of individual behavior (and therefore the responsibility) is
the enviornment.  It is a field study based on "outside forces" theory.
The purpose of this set of theories, is to allow those people who make
their living from tax money to justify their own lives and give them
a sense of self esteem and purpose in their jobs (including, but not 
limited to, social workers, university soc. instructors, education majors 
and many others).)

>The question that continues to come to mind is "Are we safer by arming
>ourselves?"  I don't think so.  

	Look at the annual FBI uniform crime reports.  Those who resist
criminal attacks with firearms are less likely to be seriously injured
than those who fail to resist, or resist unarmed or with other weapons.

>Why is it that America has the highest 
>rates of homicide in the world?  

	It doesn't and isn't even close.  Try Egypt vs US, Cairo vs NYC, or
	Mexico vs US.

Some 10.9/1,000 people die by homicide 
>each year in the U.S.

	Closer to 9 per 100,000.

>We are a violent nation, and I believe that arming ourselves only
>contributes to this violence.  Another fact- more Californians die by knives
>than all Canadians by ALL means COMBINED.  This vigilante attitude only
>contributes to an already high crime rate.

>As mentioned before, I will, if the time comes, fight/use violence to DEFEND
>myself, but I won't take the law into my own hands just for the sake of gettng
>a criminal off the streets.  If the situation is that bad, why don't we

	Only a foolish person would say he would kill to get a criminal off
the streets.  Expect anything you say or write in a public forum to be used
against you in a murder trial.   The only legit reason to use deadly force
is to protect yourself or another person* from immediate physical harm, and 
to protect property in a few states in a few circumstances.

	Punishment is never a ligit reason to use deadly force.

*Cops can kill humans to protect police dogs.   In some states it is a
more serious felony to injure or kill a police dog than to injure or 
kill a human.

>pressure the government into doing something about it?  Maybe we need social
>change, new programs, etc...  Violence begets violence.

	Not to argue with you, but government is generally not capable of
doing anything for you that you cannot do yourself.

Jim Del Vecchio