Newsgroups: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: Re: Islam versus Religion  
From: Hakki_Kocabas@kcbbs.gen.nz (Hakki Kocabas)
Date: 23 Nov 92 18:44:47 GMT
Organization: Kappa Crucis Unix BBS, Auckland, New Zealand

> In article <10292326.44739.4299@kcbbs.gen.nz> Hakki_Kocabas@kcbbs.gen.nz (Ha
> Kocabas) attempts a response to thh following dialogue:  
>   
> [KK] [DD] In article <1992Nov20.142135.15324@sol.ctr.columbia.edu>   
> [KK] [DD] deniz@mandolin.ctr.columbia.edu (Deniz Akkus) wrote, among other  
> [KK] [DD] things:    
> [KK]     
> [KK] [DA] I think that Islam is a religion, not a way of life.    
>     
> [KK] [DD] I don't know what you learned about "religion", especially Islam, 
> [KK] [DD] but it WAS way of life, a culture, by definition!.     
>     
> [KK] [DD] It's when a way of life of a social group becomes an institution, 
> [KK] [DD] that is becomes a "religion" as we know it today. Just read the  
> [KK] [DD] Quran, it is a program for a way of life.     
>     
> [KK] Yeah let us read the Quran:    
>     
> [DD] Here is a summary of use of DIN=RELIGION in the Quran, a grammatical ma
>    
> Unnecessary material deleted.  
[Unnecessary material deleted.]  
  
> [KK] if you don't know how to use "UNIX", then how can you gain access    
> [KK] to UNIX-machine and utilize all the goodies of it ?    
   
> How about a UNIX User's Guide, a UNIX Bible, if you wish. Alternatively, som
> one could instruct you on how to gain acesss, a UNIX Guru perhaps!  
                                                       ^^^^  
that is an idea, but I'll come back to that in another occassion..;->  
  
> Gee...Mr. Kocabas, how can one possibly use UNIX without understanding the  
> Kernal? How can somebody drive a car without understanding the complex  
> chemical processes of combustion? Well, some of us do a good job at both!   
  
no..no..no..ask this: How can someone drive a car without knowing  
how to use the brakes....  
   
> [KK]  if you don't know how to use the words of language, then how can    
> [KK] you gain access to INTELLECT ?     
> [KK]    
> [KK] How can you ACCESS TO INTELLECT without a sound LANGUAGE ?     
>    
> Well, sir, you are trying here on UseNet...you tell us!  
    
> First all Mr. Kocabas, what you presented must have come from a different  
> discussion, for I have no idea what you are tyring to prove to me that eithe
> I didn't know or argued in opposition to. If you are angry at me for some ot
> reason, so be it, but please make sense in what you write. I have received  
> several very interesting emails as well as UseNet responses to what I wrote 
> on this subject -- you sir -- are a singular exception.  
  
don't be so paranoid, I am not angry with you...but read further..  
   
> My point was that Islam at least was a way of life. If you agree fine, if  
> you disagree that may be fine also, however, you will have to answer to the 
> Mullas.  
  
Your point is:  
  
'Islam' is 'religion'  
  
and   
  
'religion' is 'way of life'  
  
and also your point is  
  
> [KK] [DD] Just read the Quran,  
  
so let's read it again:  
  
Yeah let us read the Quran:  
  
Here is a summary of use of DIN=RELIGION in the Quran, a grammatical map:  
  
Allah (chosen/ordained) for you the DIN  
Allah (establish) for them their DIN  
Allh said: I perfected DIN  
           I have chosen for you al-Islam as DIN  
Allah send messenger with the DIN of truth that may cause it to  
prevail over DIN  
Allah said: people of scripture ! stress not in your DIN other than  
the truth  
would you teach Allah your DIN ?  
the DIN (for/with/of) Allah  
the DIN of truth  
pure DIN is for Allah  
making (their/my) DIN pure for Allah  
keeping DIN pure for Allah  
on the day of DIN the command is Allah's  
establish the DIN  
pharaoh said: Moses will alter your DIN  
according to king's DIN  
someone (follows/follows-your/slanders/may-seek-help-in-the-matter-  
of/set-purpose-for-the-right/denies/becomes-a-renegate-from-  
someone's) DIN  
give the lie to someone about the DIN  
(no-compulsio/no-hardship/to-gain-sound-knowledge/brothers/who-is-  
better) in DIN  
the day of DIN  
have they partners made lawful for them in their DIN that which  
Allah allowed not  
DIN will happen  
to war against someone on account of DIN  
(they-are-in-dispair-of/they-will-fight-till-they-made-you-  
renegates-from/they-assail) your DIN  
people of scripture (exaggerate-in-their-DIN/and-disbelievers-make-  
a-jest-and-sport-of-your-DIN)  
they take their DIN for pastime and jest  
(they-split-up/they-sunder) their DIN and become schimatics  
their DIN had (deluded/beguiled) them  
their partners make their DIN obscure for them  
it deceived them regarding their DIN  
if you are in doubt of my DIN  
  
List of ayats where "DIN" occurs:  
  
009.029, 001.003, 002.132, 002.193, 002.256, 003.019, 003.083,  
004.046, 007.029, 008.039, 008.072, 009.011, 009.033, 009.036,  
009.122, 010.023, 010.105, 012.040, 012.076, 015.035, 016.052,  
022.078, 024.002, 026.082, 029.082, 029.065, 030.030, 030.043,  
031.032, 033.005, 037.020, 038.079, 039.002, 039.003, 039.011,  
040.014, 040.065, 042.013, 042.013, 042.021, 048.028, 051.006,  
051.012, 056.056, 060.008, 060.009, 061.009, 070.026, 074.046,  
082.009, 082.015, 082.017, 082.018, 082.019, 083.011, 095.077,  
098.005, 107.001, 109.006, 110.002, 003.085, 004.125, 005.003,  
002.217, 003.073, 004.171, 005.057, 005.077, 009.012, 040.026,  
049.016, 005.054, 003.024, 004.146, 006.070, 006.138, 006.160,  
007.051, 008.049, 024.025, 024.055, 030.032, 010.105, 039.014  
  
See how "DIN" is hooked up to "MILLET" :  
  
004.125 who is better in DIN than one who surrendered ones' purpose  
to Allah while doing good and follows the MILLET of Abraham, the  
upright, Allah chose Abraham for friend.  
(ahsenu=better, esleme=surrendered, veche=pupose, muhsin=good,  
TEBEA=follow, MILLET, Abraham, hanif=upright, halilen=friend)  
  
002.120 and the jews will not be pleased with you, nor the  
christians, till you follow their MILLET. Say: guidance of Allah is  
guidance. And if you should follow their desires after the  
knowledge which had come unto you, then would you have from Allah  
no protecting friend nor helper.  
(jews, christians, TEBEA=follow, ILM=knowledge, veliy=friend(?),  
HEDA=guidance, HEVA=desires)  
  
022.078 ..he had chosen you and had not laid upon you in DIN any  
hardship; the MILLET of your father Abraham. He had named you  
muslims of old time and in this (scripture)...  
(dini-min-haracin=din-with-no-hardship, millet, Abraham, muslimin)  
  
006.162 say: as for me, my Lord had guided me unto a straight path,  
a right DIN, the MILLET of Abraham, the upright, who was no  
idolater....  
(hedani=guided, sratin-mustakim=straight-path, dinen-kiyemen=right-  
din, hanif=upright, mushrikin=idolater)  
  
  
I think there is enough examples here in the Quran which gives you  
a solid over-view how you can use this word "DIN" without ending up  
in the maze of metaphysicians' "DIN" ?! (Like D.Davidian)  
  
>   
> Are you saying that Islam is/was or is not/was not a way of life? Just answe
> the question. It is not metaphysical issue, but is quite an objective questi
  
If you were really keen to know the answer, then you wouldn't waste your   
time to ask me, but you would scan the Quran itself to figure  
out how the word 'Islam' is used in it.  
  
I am not here to give answers, remember....I am here to ask questions so  
that you may start using intellect=akil.  
  
by the way, tell me how do you say "Selam!" in armenian.  
  
  
> --   
> David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org "It has been ever thus in all things, son