From: pnsf01dw@UMASSD.EDU (Dennis J. Wilkinson)
Subject: Re: Hangmans Noose
Reply-To: pnsf01dw@UMASSD.EDU
Organization: UMASS DARTMOUTH, NO. DARTMOUTH, MA.
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 16:15:17 GMT

In article <1h0vrmINNon0@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>, ad980@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Paul S. Wolf) writes:
>
>In a previous article, smackinnon@mta.ca () says:
>
>>In article <arklein-181292133511@minos.pica.army.mil>, arklein@pica.army.mil (Arnold S. Klein) writes:
>>>I,ve heard that it is against scout policy to make, or show how to make a
>>>hangmans noose to scouts, is this true?
>>>
>>>Arnold S. Klein at Armament Reasearch, Development and Engineering Center
>>>(ARDEC) E-Mail arklein@pica.army.mil
>>	I though it was against the law to make a noose.
>>qshawn
>>
>>
>As far as I know, there is nothing illegal, nor is it against OFFICIAL BSA 
>rules to make or teach how to make nooses.  HOWEVER, no Scouter I know will
>teach the noose, nor let the boys make them.  They are not Knots used for
>any legitimate scouting purpose.

Ditto here. I've never seen any proof to the rumors that the hangman's noose is
"illegal" or "against policy" - but I agree that it's a bad idea to teach the
knots to Scouts (considering that unless it's being used as a rather morbid
decoration, it's useless and potentially dangerous).

Just some knot trivia... (Mr. Scoutcraft kicking in again... sorry)

You almost always teach scouts a variant of the noose, sometimes unwittingly.
The slip knot (as it's commonly tied, with the standing part slipped) is
technically a noose, while a true slip knot has the end slipped. 

What we in the good ol' USA call a square knot is really a reef knot (check with
a Brit or two and ask them what a square knot is... you'll probably get a SQUARE
knot! At least, that was my experience from Natl. Camp School...) When rigged
ships were the most common, the reef knot was probably responsible for the
deaths of more sailors than any other... if tied to join two lines or ropes that
were to be used for hauling or lifting. The reef knot isn't designed to bear
weight (it's for closing packages, really) and under a heavy load will do one of
two things - slip completely, or break (it weakens line severly). Use a sheet
bend for joining lines (even if they're DIFFERENT sizes!)

The "shoelace bow", depending on how it's tied, is either a doubly-slipped reef
or a doubly-slipped "granny" knot.

Once upon a time (and probably sitll) knots that were physically identical but
tied in a different way were given different names. Check out the reef and
miller's knot for an example (at least I think it's the millers knot... it's ben
a while).

Some people call a variant of the hangman's noose the "Boy Scout coil" --
sometimes seen in a slightly twisted form on a new coil of clothesline or
sashcloth.

No two Gordian knots are alike, at least in principle.

If you're a knot buff (especially a decorative knot buff or a rigging buff)
check out _The Ashley Book of Knots_ by Clifford Ashley. It's a fairly old book,
so it won't include specialty knots that evolved with kernmantled rope (like
the Alpine Butterfly or the Prussik) but it does have a thousand knots or so,
with directions for tying and illustrations by the author. Also makes a great
Christmas present for your favorite Pioneering counselor.... ;-)

--Dennis


----------------------------------------------------
Dennis J. Wilkinson, II  (pnsf01dw@umassd.edu)
University of Massachusetts Dartmouth - Design/CS Project

The opinions reflected in this post are MINE!!!! ALL MINE!!!!!