HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: padutton@wpi.WPI.EDU (Peter Alan Dutton)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: "Route"
Date: 12 Aug 92 12:55:49 GMT
Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute

In article <1992Aug12.104734.29915@usenet.ins.cwru.edu> bf455@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Bonita Kale) writes:
>
>Can this be right?  I grew up in the New York area, and always heard
>"route" rhyming with "pout".  As I got older, I discovered the "root"
>pronunciation of the word meaning a path, but the carpentry tool -always-
>rhymes with "pout".  (It's that thing that digs out gouges in wood, that
>your father wanted for his birthday.)
>

Where in the New York area? By me, if one said that "route" rhymed
with "pout", you may have just as well said "pop" for "soda". We 
don't cotton none to youse smart-alecky Midwesterners.

But then again, I don't hear "youse" much anymore. Believe it or not,
"yall" seems to be catching on (without the apopstrophe, of course,
in order to distinguish it from true Southern Speak), only because,
well, goshdarnit, it does make a nice simplified form of "you all".
I move we make "yall" the proper second-person plural pronoun and
be done with it.

(I'm not from Massachusetts, I only play one on TV)

Peter!
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: roger@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: Can I axe you a question?
Originator: news@nimaster
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 03:30:02 GMT

In article <1992Aug20.010300.15504@news.columbia.edu> gmw1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Gabe M Wiener) writes:
>In article <1992Aug19.175303.17134@Princeton.EDU> roger@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig) writes:

>>I'd be surprised to hear a radio announcer say "excape" (well, let's
>>say, one on WCBS or the like); but it's a colloquial pronunciation, and
>>all the tantrums in the worlds aren't going to make it go away.  In some
>>contexts it's shocking; in others, it's just fine.

>Why would you find it so shocking, Roger?  Everyone would understand what
>he meant.  Isn't *that* all that's important?

No.  What a silly idea.  Haven't you ever heard of style?  When I tune
to WCBS I expect a certain style.

When I listen to people talking on the street or in the office, I have
different expectations.  Don't you?


Roger
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Less versus Fewer: Victory at NPR!
From: thayes@desire.wright.edu
Date: 14 Aug 92 09:50:46 EST
Organization: Wright State University 



Hey!  I think we won one, finally!

In article <1992Aug13.174807.3862@avernus.com>, 
mgfrank@avernus.com (Marc G. Frank) writes:
> In article <BsvvC.EwF@news.cso.uiuc.edu> rmshair@chgvmic.vnet.ibm.com writes:
>>Is it time to give up on the distinction between "less" and "fewer?"
> 
> No!  Never give up!

NPR announcer Lynn Neary (sp?) introduced the weekly 
movie review this morning.  She said that the reviewer would complain that
two new movies had ... (drum roll) ... "fewer chills."

Does Lynn read a.u.e.?


> I've been thinking of buying a few supermarket chains just so I can
> actually see signs that say "7 items or fewer."

Might be bad for business -- no one would know what you mean!


BTW: I *don't* want to read that Lynn Neary should be referred to as an
"announcestress"!  "Announcetron," maybe...

-----ted hayes

Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: michaeln@cs.uq.oz.au (Bunweasel)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Someone kicked my Donkey...
Date: 18 Aug 92 18:28:19 GMT
Reply-To: michaeln@cs.uq.oz.au
Organization: Department of Computer Science, The University of Queensland


In article henry@netcom.com, henry@netcom.com (Henry Polard) writes:
>In article <1992Aug14.092528.19377@techbook.com> dant@techbook.com (Dan Tilque) writes:
>>This discussion reminds me of a somewhat contrived joke which depends on
>>the different meanings a Briton and an American would assign to the
>>sentence:

>>  I feel the perfect ass.
>Then there's this limerick, which only works in Yankspeak:

>There once was a pretty young lass
>Who had a most magnificent ass.
>'Twas not round and pink,
>As you probably think,
>But was gray, had long ears, and ate grass.

>I heard this in high school, some time in the pleistocene.
>-- 
 ________________________________________________________
>/ Henry  || We are such stuffe as dreames are made on;   \
>\ Polard || and our little life is rounded with a sleepe /
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I think it would work perfectly well in a Cestrian, Yorkish or equally
Northern accent.

-m.






]
From: met@ariel.its.unimelb.EDU.AU (Meteorology General)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Less versus Fewer OOPS(supermarkets)
Summary: I goofed
Date: 15 Aug 92 08:37:29 GMT
Organization: University of Melbourne Dept of Meteorology

In article <2955@ariel.its.unimelb.EDU.AU> met@ariel.its.unimelb.EDU.AU (Meteorology General) writes:
>My suggestion :   Up To ? items, where ? is (7,8,12,15) as suits the
>store.  The reason? -- it is about as short and shouldn't upset grammarians.
>Now to get stores WORLDWIDE to change, that is the challenge.  Perhaps if
>we suggest some advertising coup involving local primary (public / grade /
>you know 5-12 years) schools, the expense may be seen to be worthwhile.
               ^^^^^ old (age of the students, not years 5-12)
Sorry for the ambiguity.

Mick

mick@mullara.met.unimelb.edu.au         | Most people choose to be 
Michael Johnson                         | shaped by their past rather
Dept. of Meteorology, Univ. of Melbourne| than mould their future.
Parkville, Australia                    |
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english,soc.culture.canada,can.general
From: Nigel.Allen@bbs.oit.unc.edu (Nigel Allen)
Subject: Re: GAZETTE: THE WORLD 'REMARKS' OUR FRENCH-INFLUENCED ENGLISH
Organization: Echo Beach
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 01:36:10 GMT

I think a Quebec anglophone will use the word "scolarite" or "scolarity"
in one particular context: a teacher's salary is a function of the number
of degrees they have (expressed as years of scholarity; a Ph.D. is 
considered as 20 years) and the number of years of experience they have.

That is the only time a Quebec anglophone would say "scolarite", I think.

Nigel Allen
--
   The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the University of
     North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the Campus Office for Information
        Technology, or the Experimental Bulletin Board Service.
           internet:  bbs.oit.unc.edu or 152.2.22.80
From: pjh@eng.cam.ac.uk (Philippa Hogben)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: "Route"
Date: 13 Aug 92 14:12:00 GMT
Organization: cam.eng

dks@athena.mit.edu (dks) writes:

>By the way, in my original post that raised the question of how "route"
>is nowadays pronounced, I asked particularly for responses from England.
>Alas, I haven't seen any yet.  Silence is all very well at times, proud
>English, but at the moment I need your help!  Speak up, won't you, please?

O.K. then. here's one.

I pronounce route to rhyme with shoot, chute, hoot, root and so on.
I pronounce rout to rhyme with out, clout, pout, nowt.

To me, a router would be something which is used to rout not to route.

My dictionary (Chambers) gives the "e" in rout(e)ing as optional.

Hope this helps.

Philippa Hogben

pjh@eng.cam.ac.uk  (reverse if posting from Janet)

[Manual {or womanual (or personual...... do I _HAVE_ to be
"Politically Correct"?)} .sig added because my automatic one appears
to be broken.]
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: roger@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: Less versus Fewer: Victory at NPR!
Originator: news@nimaster
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 03:52:35 GMT

In article <1992Aug19.183447.3628@desire.wright.edu> thayes@desire.wright.edu writes:
>In article <1992Aug19.155514.27121@midway.uchicago.edu>, 
>goer@ellis.uchicago.edu (Richard L. Goerwitz) writes:
>> roger@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig) writes:

>>>>>No, you should have pointed out that "8 items or less" is flat-out
>>>>>*correct.*  And idiomatic.  And long-standing usage.  And standard.

>>>>.......NOT!

>>>OK, Gabe: meet you at the OED, or the reference grammar of your choice.

>> Gabe is just playing the adversary, needling the sorts of folks who
>> will find wanton disregard for the OED offensive.  

>*Great* line!

Could you explain it to me, then?

>> Incidentally, the OED is not strictly a prescriptive dictionary (as
>> I myself have been repeatedly reminded here), although there is an
>> obvious tendency to cite only the "best" sources (!).

>Roger's bombast of late indicates that the only authority he would see fit to
>revere would be himself.

Look, is this a smileyless joke or something?  I'm the only one here
*citing* authorities, and I've mentioned a stack of them.  Evans and
Evans, the OED, Jespersen, McKnight, Lounsbury; there, I've cited them
again.  

Of course, I don't *revere* them or anything.  But I study them, which,
they say, is even better.

Roger
>
>(To be fair, each of us is only a step behind him, though -- as Barbara
>Bush might say -- at least we'd be correct!)
>
>-----ted hayes
>


Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: henry@netcom.com (Henry Polard)
Subject: Re: The subjunctive
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 92 03:34:54 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)

In article <SLAGLE.92Aug13012257@sgi417.msd.lmsc.lockheed.com> slagle@lmsc.lockheed.com writes:
>
>Well, I think it means, "(May) God (pretty please) save
>the Queen (from marauders and natural disasters and the
>Heartbreak of psoriasis and the likes of Lloyd George)."
The technical term for this sort of mood is "hortatory" (the term
is related to "exhort". It's somewhat
like the subjunctive.  Unlike the imperative, where there's no overt 
subject "you" is not the implied one . E.g.:
	Eat your vegetables, or I'll take away your keyboard.
		is OK as an imperative, but:
	Have a nice day, or I'll take away your keyboard.
		is not OK as a hortatory sentence.	
Common hortatory sentences include:
	Let's go!
	Have a nice day!
	God bless you! 
-- 
 ________________________________________________________
/ Henry  || We are such stuffe as dreames are made on;   \
\ Polard || and our little life is rounded with a sleepe /
 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: campbell@redsox.bsw.com (Larry Campbell)
Subject: Re: "Route"
Organization: The Boston Software Works, Inc.
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 04:46:48 GMT


In article <1992Aug12.142601.25493@athena.mit.edu>, dks@athena.mit.edu (dks) writes:
> . . . I think the single phrase "paper route" has had more influence
> than anything else on how the r-word is pronounced in the USA.  Even
> within the usage patterns of a single individual, "paper route" seems
> to have a reified "r-out" existence, independent of all other occurrences
> and pronunciations of the r-word.  And since the "r-out" noun is so
> firmly ensconced, I suppose it seems natural that the verb form would be
> affected, given our propensity here in the US to indulge in the verbing
> of nouns, and, as with "router," even the *wrong* nouns!

Um, maybe in some (god-forsaken) locales...  but around here, when
I had my paper route, the term always rhymed with "paper shoot".
I never heard it pronounced any other way.
-- 
Larry Campbell             The Boston Software Works, Inc., 120 Fulton Street
campbell@redsox.bsw.com    Boston, Massachusetts 02109 (USA)
From: met@ariel.its.unimelb.EDU.AU (Meteorology General)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Less versus Fewer... time to give up?
Summary: NO
Date: 13 Aug 92 09:23:32 GMT
Organization: University of Melbourne Dept of Meteorology

In article <Bsvv1C.EwF@news.cso.uiuc.edu> rmshair@chgvmic1.vnet.ibm.com writes:
>Is it time to give up on the distinction between "less" and "fewer?"
>...
>          The PS/2 8511 Color Display has far less components than the IBM      
>          8512, contributing to higher reliability for the customer.
>
>--

My A$0.02 (and falling in value) is that we should certainly 
NOT lose this distinction.  The ability to reduce humans to 
objects can be useful!  I am firmly of the opinion that, if 
I am counting them then one group has fewer than another; 
if I am describing space/time then one group has/is less 
than another.

Mick J. 
mick@mullara.met.unimelb.edu.au         | Most people choose to be 
Michael Johnson                         | shaped by their past rather
Dept. of Meteorology, Univ. of Melbourne| than mould their future.
Parkville, Australia                    |
Xref: sparky alt.usage.english:6559 sci.lang:6514
From: hughes@daffy.cis.udel.edu (John Hughes)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english,sci.lang
Subject: Re: Can I axe you a question?
Date: 18 Aug 92 18:55:24 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Delaware, Newark

> In article <1992Aug17.004116.42389@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu> miner@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu writes:
> >
> >The form pronounced "axe" for "ask" is the original form.  Cf. Old
> >English _acsian_, i.e. /aksjan/ 'to ask.'  As often happens, an early
> >form remains here in the dialects.  It is the standard variants that
> >underwent the metathesis, or reversal, of the two consonants.
> 
> I really have to wonder if the "axe" in Black English Vernacular is really
> derived from _acsian_ or if it's just laziness in pronouncing "ask."

This is an interesting idea. I always thought that for the most part, people 
tend to learn the pronunciation, vocabulary, and syntax of their native 
languages from their parents and peers, and that knowledge is more or less 
unconscious and is applied automatically. But the above theory seems to sugges
that people, regardless of their immediate speech community in youth, know of 
the proper, inherently difficult language habits (which presumably reside in 
an ideal Platonic space) but can actually refuse to subscribe to those habits
out of some militant laziness. Also, in this theory, each generation begins 
anew with a pristine competence which is continually eroded by sloth, in an 
endless cycle which repeats itself for ages, often in amazingly similar 
patterns.

An arresting and revolutionary theory!


John
hughes@cis.udel.edu
From: gmw1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Gabe M Wiener)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: "Route"
Date: 14 Aug 92 18:53:02 GMT
Reply-To: gmw1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Gabe M Wiener)
Organization: Columbia University

In article <BsvF5x.DI@wpi.WPI.EDU> padutton@wpi.WPI.EDU (Peter Alan Dutton) writes:
>>In New York, that'd rhyme with "hoot," including the word router.
>
>Nope. "Route" DOES rime with "hoot", but "router", the carpentry
>tool, rhymes with "powder". But maybe that's the Eastun Long
>Island Subdialect of N'Yoark speak...

Well, I don't know much about carpentry tools, vut when you install one of
those nifty gateways in the computer center called "an internet router" or
you print postal barcodes with Carrier-Route numbers on them, it's "root"
and "rooter" and not "rowt" and "rowter"


--
Gabe Wiener - Columbia Univ.     "This 'telephone' has too many shortcomings 
gmw1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu       to be seriously considered as a means of 
N2GPZ in ham radio circles        communication. The device is inherently of
72355,1226 on CI$                 no value to us." -Western Union memo, 1877
From: baron@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Dennis Baron)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Usage: 'goes' for 'said'
Date: 21 Aug 92 20:00:30 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois

The latest variation on _say_ is simply a form of _to Be_:

He goes, "Did you ever hear of anything like that before?" And I'm,
like, 'Never!"

__

Dennis


debaron@uiuc.edu               (\                   217-333-2392
                               \'\             fax: 217-333-4321
Dennis Baron                    \'\           __________
Department of English           / '|         ()_________)
Univ. of Illinois               \ '/          \ ~~~~~~~~ \
608 S. Wright St.                 \             \ ~~~~~~   \
Urbana IL 61801                   ==).            \__________\
                                 (__)             ()__________)
From: ccjal@cc.newcastle.edu.au (John A Lambert)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Usage: 'go' for 'said' - second try
Date: 21 Aug 92 03:25:10 GMT
Organization: University of Newcastle, AUSTRALIA

In article <6166@lhdsy1.lahabra.chevron.com>, hillyer@rrc.chevron.com (Martin J. Hillyer,50-1267,(510)242-3123) writes:
> 
> Where did the usage `go' for 'said' come from?  Example I went into the store and I go, "How much is that doggie in the window?", and he goes, "$199.95 plus tax."  I seem to hear it all the time lately, even from educated people.  Is it a West Coast usage (I presume it hasn't shown up in the UK, yet).
> 
> Just curious.
> 
> Martin
> 
-- 
This hits my ear as a common Australian usage. I have no memory of its
being `new'.

John A Lambert
Centre for Literary and Linguistic Computing
The University of Newcastle NSW 2308 Australia
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english,sci.lang
From: schiller@tira.uchicago.edu (Eric Schiller)
Subject: Re: Can I axe you a question?
Organization: Center for Information and Language Studies / University of
	Chicago
	<1992Aug18.033717.13510@news.columbia.edu>
	<1992Aug18.223433.10095@math.ucla.edu>
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 23:10:02 GMT

Not to be forgetting "psketti"!
/s/ does seem to like to methatesize!

Eric Schiller
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: hau4@ellis.uchicago.edu (sven  hauptfeld)
Subject: Re: Can I axe you a question?
Reply-To: hau4@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 05:15:23 GMT

In article <1992Aug17.221445.172@midway.uchicago.edu> goer@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>asimov@wk223.nas.nasa.gov (Daniel A. Asimov) writes:
>>
>>And I often hear "et cetera" pronounced "ek cetera."  (This is 
>>mucus to my ears.)
>
>Foreign phrases always get mangled when borrowed.  It's just a mat-
>ter of degree.  We don't pronounce "et cetera" in a particularly
>Latin-like manner (even late Latin, I might add). 

That's not the point. The way "we" pronounce 'et cetera' is consistent with
the way Latin words are pronounced in English. But when somebody pronounces it
'ek cetera' (or, rather, 'exettera') it is clearly because they never read
but only watch TV, like Chancey the gardener ("Being There").

Similar is the origin of 'asterix' pronounciation - the only familiar similar
word is Goscini-Uderzo's Asterix the Gaule. Too bad, for two reasons: "Asterix"
is a damn good comic strip, and the word 'Asterix' is an obvious pun on
'asterisk'...

> Nor do the lib-
>erated souls who pronounce it "ek cetera."

They are "liberated" from thinking, a very popular form of freedom today.

Sven

Xref: sparky alt.usage.english:6582 sci.lang:6525
From: alex@phobos.math.ucla.edu (Alex Langley)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english,sci.lang
Subject: Re: Can I axe you a question?
Date: 18 Aug 92 22:34:33 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: UCLA Mathematics Department

In article <1992Aug18.033717.13510@news.columbia.edu> gmw1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Gabe M Wiener) writes:
>In article <1992Aug17.004116.42389@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu> miner@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu writes:
>>
>>The form pronounced "axe" for "ask" is the original form.  Cf. Old
>>English _acsian_, i.e. /aksjan/ 'to ask.'  As often happens, an early
>>form remains here in the dialects.  It is the standard variants that
>>underwent the metathesis, or reversal, of the two consonants.
>
>I really have to wonder if the "axe" in Black English Vernacular is really
>derived from _acsian_ or if it's just laziness in pronouncing "ask."

I doubt it's laziness, just a widespread case of metathesis.  Englist
is full of it.  How do you pronounce "prescribe" in fast speech?  Most
people I hear say [p@rskraib].  But we ain't lazy.  

>
>
>--
>Gabe Wiener - Columbia Univ.     "This 'telephone' has too many shortcomings 
>gmw1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu       to be seriously considered as a means of 
>N2GPZ in ham radio circles        communication. The device is inherently of
>72355,1226 on CI$                 no value to us." -Western Union memo, 1877



Alex Langley
alex@math.ucla.edu
UCLA Mathnet, 6221 MSA, 405 Hilgard, Los Angeles, CA  90024-1555, (310)825-2897
Opinions are my own, and do not represent those of the University of California.
From: maynor@Ra.MsState.Edu (Natalie Maynor)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: "Grammar"
Date: 21 Aug 92 10:49:02 GMT
Organization: Mississippi State University

gmw1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Gabe M Wiener) writes:

>But Roger, from what I've read, *you* are the only one arguing for a 
>distinction between a formal notion of "grammar" and the definition that
>is in common use.  

Nope.  I find it difficult to discuss language seriously when people are
using the word "grammar" in what I tell my students is the "street sense
of the word."  But that's ok, I guess, since it appears that not many
people in this discussion have much understanding of how language works
anyway. 

>Strunk & White may spend a lot of time on style, but many of its points
>are actually points of usage.

Where was it that I saw a hilarious listing of S&W's violations of its
own prescriptions/proscriptions?  I wish I had saved it.
--
   Natalie (maynor@ra.msstate.edu)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: Tom Christiansen <tchrist@convex.COM>
Subject: Re: Use of 'I' and 'me'
Originator: tchrist@pixel.convex.com
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 13:53:51 GMT
Reply-To: tchrist@convex.COM (Tom Christiansen)
Organization: Convex Computer Corporation, Colorado Springs, CO
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.


It may be interesting to observe that in Spanish, "entre" (between)
is specifically exempted from requiring object-case pronouns, thus
rendering "entre tu y yo" (betwen you and I) grammatical by definition.

--tom
-- 
    Tom Christiansen      tchrist@convex.com      convex!tchrist


    F u cn rd ths u cnt spl wrth a dm!