HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: emcguire@intellection.com (Ed McGuire)
Subject: Re: soc.culture.native.american
Organization: Intellection, Inc.
	<ByzIAK.AH2@news.cso.uiuc.edu>
	<1992Dec10.072250.11037@gnosys.svle.ma.us>
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 18:08:41 GMT

In article <1992Dec10.072250.11037@gnosys.svle.ma.us> gst@gnosys.svle.ma.us (Gary S. Trujillo) writes:

   Can anyone who knows say whether creating
   soc.culture.native.american would create a functional
   soc.culture.native newsgroup as well?

No.

   If not, would we have to vote on its creation separately in order
   to activate it as a place for posting articles about non-American
   indigenous peoples?

Yes.  But a *.misc would be my preference.
-- 
Ed McGuire                   1603 LBJ Freeway, Suite 780
Systems Administrator/       Dallas, Texas 75234
 Member of Technical Staff   214/620-2100, FAX 214/484-8110
Intellection, Inc.           <ed@intellection.com>
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: atkinson@itd.nrl.navy.mil (Randall Atkinson)
Subject: Re: RFD: comp.security.email
Organization: Naval Research Laboratory, DC
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 00:47:53 GMT

In article <1992Dec17.130353.10823@news.cs.indiana.edu> Marc VanHeyningen <mvanheyn@whale.cs.indiana.edu> writes:

>>PROPOSAL:
>>  Create a new newsgroup: 	comp.security.email
>
>I would suggest that, since it pertains closely to computerized mail,
>and because the comp.mail hierarchy is more entrenched than the
>comp.security one, that a better name might be something like
>
>	comp.mail.security
>	comp.mail.secure
>	comp.mail.crypt
>	comp.mail.pem (*)

  I could live with comp.mail.security.  Not my first choice but it
would be reasonable.  I kind of dislike the other particular
recommendations you made because they are too limiting.

  Given that the VAST majority of the traffic is ALREADY in sci.crypt
and COMP.SECURITY.misc rather than being in COMP.MAIL.misc, it isn't
at all clear that putting the group in comp.mail.* is REALLY better
than putting it in comp.security.* in the minds of the actual existing
participants in the discussions.  (HINT: we really need to have
symbolic links in our newsgroup space for cases like this).

  Note that ~.security is a broader name than ~.secure and
deliberately so.  Firstly, it is not at all clear that any of the
packages PEM/PGP/etc are really "secure" and secondly the idea of the
charter was to have all encompassing discussions NOT ONLY of such
packages BUT ALSO security issues in regular email.

Ran
atkinson@itd.nrl.navy.mil

Newsgroups: news.groups,soc.motss
From: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes)
Subject: Re: DAVE HAYES MAY BE RIGHT!
Reply-To: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov
Organization: Jet Propulsion Lab - Pasadena, CA
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 00:39:55 GMT

hartman@ulogic.UUCP (Richard M. Hartman) writes:
>>This is a very weak argument. If Gordon did not know (as you admitted)
>>that he had a choice, you cannot very well say that he had a choice. 
>>You can even say that he can't have a right to vote if he doesn't know
>>how to vote.
>>That's extremely similar to when they gave African Americans a chance to 
>>vote but made it illegal to teach them how to read. 

>NOBODY AND NO ONE "refused to teach Gordon how to read".

I didn't say that. It was an analogy. 

>There were and are no artificial roadblocks in the way of user
>participation in voting.  In the historical situation you refer
>to there very clearly were -- the requirement that in order to
>vote one must prove that one could read combined with the illegality
>of teaching negros (the term of the times in question) how to read.

The requirement that, in order to vote, one must wade through lots
of seemingly irrelavent documentation (nowhere in which is mentioned
the initials CFV or RFD) is a roadblock enough. 

>So tell me, Gordon cannot read?  Because we refused to teach him how?
>This is the most preposterous claim you have yet made.

Learn to read yourself!

Look at your assumptions! I made no such claim that he couldn't read.

>To compare the current situation with the one you have selected
>is entirely inappropriate.

That I can see you thinking.
-- 
Dave Hayes - Network & Communications Engineering - JPL / NASA - Pasadena CA
dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov       dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov         ...usc!elroy!dxh

Show me a person who really knows what 'good' is, and I will show you that 
the person almost never uses the word.
Newsgroups: news.groups,talk.politics.misc,soc.motss
From: kherron@ms.uky.edu (Kenneth Herron)
Subject: Re: new newsgroup proposal:talk.politics.motss
Distribution: na
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 13:51:56 GMT
Organization: University Of Kentucky, Dept. of Math Sciences

allan@hico2.westmark.com (Allan Kugel) writes:

>According to some e-mail replys, a group talk.politics.homosexuality exists.
>However, having checked hico2's active and newsgroup files, that group
>does not exist HERE.

talk.politics.homosexuality isn't a valid group.  See the two-part
"List of Active Newsgroups" posted to news.lists.
-- 
Kenneth Herron                                              kherron@ms.uky.edu
University of Kentucky                                         +1 606 257 2975
Dept. of Mathematics     "Your ball goes over them, it sails off the edge into
a huge cauldren of fire-breathing dragons."  "And they call this a par three?"
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: PROPOSAL:  Yes votes >= 200+2*No Votes
From: peter@ferranti.com (peter da silva)
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 01:15:32 GMT
Organization: Xenix Support, FICC

In article <102414@netnews.upenn.edu> rsk@gynko.circ.upenn.edu (Rich Kulawiec) writes:
> I will not do the same: I feel it's my obligation to honor any and all
> votes received, no matter who they come from.

Why? All a vote is is an attempt to find out if:

	1. There is interest in the group.
	2. There is nothing wrong with the name of the group.

It is not a "vote" in the sense that you're using it. It never has been.
It is simply an interest survey. You, and the person I was originally
referring to, are acting as if it was like a popular election to public
office. It isn't.

A vote is not a privilege, nor a right, nor a responsibility, any more
than answering a telephone survey or calling in to a 900-number poll.
Thinking or acting as if there was some deeper political base to it all
is just going to mess you up.

In this case:

Throwing out a vote because the person involved is voting randomly is no
different than throwing out a survey form because it's unintelligable.
-- 
Peter da Silva                                            `-_-'
Ferranti International Controls Corporation                'U` 
Sugar Land, TX  77487-5012 USA
+1 713 274 5180                            "Zure otsoa besarkatu al duzu gaur?"
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: idoy@crux1.cit.cornell.edu (Mike Wilson)
Subject: Re: RFD: soc.culture.native-america
Organization: Cornell Information Technologies
Date: 14 Dec 92 14:10:54 GMT

brown@pollux (Daniel Brown) writes:

>We could always create "soc.culture.injun."  It's concise and unambiguous,
>and there's no need to create a new hierarchy.  (I'm joking, of course, and
>anyway, no PC person can flame me because I'm part Injun myself. :-))

>-- 
>Daniel W. Brown (brown@pollux.cs.uga.edu)

Hello Daniel,

The fact that you believe yourself to be "part Indian" (which part,
I wonder?) does not make you immune from racism.  Sometimes, self-
hating members of a race are the worst racists of all. A good
case in point is the movie "A Soldier's Story."  But history is
filled with such examples.

Second, race is not always the sole determining factor of whether
someone is a member of a native nation, just as race is not a 
determining factor of whether you are a citizen of France or of
Britain.  Often the distinction is cultural, not racial.

Finally, political correctness is not whatever you choose to call
it.  A healthy economy is politically correct, as George Bush 
discovered too late to stave off a humiliating defeat.  A right
to bear arms is politically correct, if the polls are any      
indication.  Charleton Heston politically correct? Mais oui!


Regards,

Mike

idoy@crux1.cit.cornell.edu
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: jfurr@nyx.cs.du.edu (JKF)
Subject: Re: STRAW VOTE ON NAME FOR NATIVE AMERICANS NEWSGROUP
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 92 06:42:36 GMT

In article <idoy.724099377@crux1.cit.cornell.edu> idoy@crux1.cit.cornell.edu (Mike Wilson) writes:
>jfurr@polaris.async.vt.edu (Joel Furr) writes:
>
>>Okey-dokey.  It's becoming increasingly clear that what we need here, to avoid
>>the "my name is best," "no it's not" stuff that's otherwise going to take a
>>native Americans newsgroup down in flames, is a straw poll.
>
>>Anyone want to volunteer to be vote-taker?
>
>>I'd suggest the following as possible names, with people of course being free
>>to suggest others:
>
>>soc.culture.native
>>soc.culture.native.american (recognizing that there is no soc.culture.native
>>                             group for this to hang under at present)
>>soc.culture.amerind
>>soc.culture.native-america
>>soc.culture.indigenous
>>soc.culture.???
>
>>Comments?
>
>Hello JFK,
>
>Since I began this, I'll do all I can to make it work, including
>taking a straw poll. (Unless there is an unstated etiquette about
>straw polls and RFD creators that I'm not aware of.)
>
>How long does one of these straw polls last?
>
>Thanks,
>
>Mike

Up to you.  I don't participate in them that often because nothing I've
given a fig about has come up in a straw vote.  Say a couple of weeks...
don't comment on the results as they come in, just let them pile up, then
report out the consensus.  If people aren't responding, repost the straw
vote call, I dunno.  I certainly think there's bound to be room for a
native Americans newsgroup on the net but don't really see a name that
makes me want to stand up and salute, so I hope you get a lot of input.

Newsgroups: news.groups
From: oneill@cs.ulowell.edu (Brian 'Doc' O'Neill)
Subject: Re: All your postings to this newsgroup might go wasted!
Originator: oneill@bigmax.ulowell.edu
Organization: University of Massachusetts at Lowell Computer Science
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 14:43:34 GMT


The vote was for the renaming of comp.binaries.ibm.pc.archives to
comp.archives.msdos.d. Apparently it just didn't get put into the
right list thar David Lawrence maintains. The CAM groups supersede
comp.binaries.ibm.pc.archives. All news managers should alias it to
comp.archives.msdos.d.

=======================================================================
Brian O'Neill - Systems Manager, Computer Science 	 (508) 934-3645
University of Massachusetts at Lowell
Internet: oneill@ulowell.edu		Moderator, comp.binaries.ibm.pc
From: hartman@ulogic.UUCP (Richard M. Hartman)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.games.cyber renaming and unmoderation
Date: 15 Dec 92 18:24:09 GMT
Organization: negligable

In article <1992Dec9.034530.8036@archtwr.tower.nullnet.fi> elandal@archtwr.tower.nullnet.fi (Ismo Peltonen) writes:
>Donald Tsang (tsang@cs.washington.edu) wrote:
>
>  I have no clear definition for cyberpunk. It's partially the attitude,

Wrong answer -- a clear definition should be part of the charter (yes,
I know it's not been written yet).  You should HAVE a written charter
that we can discuss, this seems more of a pre-RFD....

>:   SJG's Hacker is a board game, for example.  You would alienate
>:   people who only played these games, forcing them back into
>:   rec.games.board.
>
>  True. But boardgames are so far from roleplaying that I don't believe
>they belong to the same group.

Interesting.  We just promoted a proposed group from the smaller 
definition to the more broad one during it's RFD period -- finally 
passed as rec.games.mecha.

I am not really objecting to rec.games.frp.cyber, but if you already
have a more generic group, why go backwards?  The generally accepted
reason for a group split (which this would become) is high traffic
for one portion (frp) that swamps conversation of other aspects.

If I were you I'd change the proposal to just unmoderate r.g.cyber.
Part of what we wanted in r.g.mecha was the ability to talk about
other aspects than the frps (books, computer games, etc).  I'd suggest
taking that tack w/ a modified charter to r.g.cyber (there are certainly
a bunch of Shadowrun books -- which according to the restricted charter
couldn't be discussed because r.g.f.cyber would be ONLY for the frps....)

(I still gotta get r.g.mecha on my feed -- thanks for reminding me! :)


		-Richard Hartman
		hartman@ulogic.COM

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
glockh belvars: cannot recover
Xref: sparky news.groups:24655 alt.config:8035 alt.folklore.computers:18095 alt.fan.john-palmer:465
From: klein@egr.msu.edu (Jeffrey Klein)
Newsgroups: news.groups,alt.config,alt.folklore.computers,alt.fan.john-palmer
Subject: Re: RESULT: comp.society.folklore unmoderation fails 729:151
Date: 18 Dec 92 18:07:05 GMT
Organization: Michigan State University College of Stunt Piloting

In article <scs.724685791@wotan.iti.org> scs@iti.org (Steve Simmons) writes:
>klein@egr.msu.edu (Jeffrey Klein) writes:
>
>>In article <scs.724598988@hela.iti.org> scs@iti.org (Steve Simmons) writes:
>>>
>>>Before getting too excited, it's worth doing a bit of research . . .
>
>>Well, there was a cancel message sent.
>>Here's how it looked from umass.
>
>>>Control: newgroup comp.society.folklore
>>>Newsgroups: alt.config,comp.society.folklore.ctl
>>>Path: umassd.edu!nic.umass.edu!caen!destroyer!Tygra.Michigan.COM!news
>
>That's not a cancel, that's another newgroup setting it back.  It
>would have left the original message intact.

I -meant- that's how the -newgroup- looked....

Here's the whole cancel.


From msuinfo!caen!nic.umass.edu!umassd.edu!root Thu Dec 17 19:03:04 EST 1992
Article: 89268 of control
Control: cancel <1992Dec17.020219.23751news@tygra.Michigan.COM>
Newsgroups: alt.config,comp.society.folklore.ctl
From: root@cis.umassd.edu (System PRIVILEGED Account)
Subject: Re: newgroup comp.society.folklore
Organization: University of Massachusetts Dartmouth
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 04:52:53 GMT

Attempting to minimize the damage caused by this:

>Control: newgroup comp.society.folklore
>Newsgroups: alt.config,comp.society.folklore.ctl
>Path: umassd.edu!nic.umass.edu!caen!destroyer!Tygra.Michigan.COM!news
>From: news@tygra.Michigan.COM (USENET News Manager)
>Subject: newgroup comp.society.folklore
>Organization: CAT-TALK Conferencing System
>Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 02:02:17 GMT
>Approved: news@tygra.michigan.com (USENET News Manager)
>Message-ID: <1992Dec17.020219.23751news@tygra.Michigan.COM>
>
>As per voting.
>   FOR: 729
>   AGAINST: 151
>   FOR COUNT > 100? YES
See news.groups for details...
-- 
Michael A Stoodt  [MaS]      |        mumble mumble disclaimer mumble...
{stoodt,root}@cis.umassd.edu | "Will the last person to leave the planet
Comp&InfoSci, UMassDartmouth |  please turn off the sun?" - Mike Resnick


-- 
Jeff Klein             | "Happily, Ral doffs his outer clothing for a
Browsing Boy of the LNH|  refreshing dip in one of the dangerous 
klein@frith.egr.msu.edu|  chemical vats." - Ty Templeton 
Newsgroups: news.groups,alt.native
From: idoy@crux1.cit.cornell.edu (Mike Wilson)
Subject: Re: CALL FOR STRAW VOTE: NATIVE NEWSGROUP
Keywords: native, straw vote, concensus
Organization: Cornell Information Technologies
Date: 15 Dec 92 03:07:24 GMT

idoy@crux1.cit.cornell.edu (Mike Wilson) writes:

>CALL FOR A STRAW VOTE: NATIVE NEWSGROUP

In case anyone is interested, I would like to name of the
groups be
			soc.culture.native

because few people find it offensive, it doesn't have the 
military sound of 'indigenous,' and it doesn't have the 
anthropological (and often condescending) overtones 
of 'aboriginal.'

Mike

idoy@crux1.cit.cornell.edu
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: twpierce@unix.amherst.edu (Tim Pierce)
Subject: Re: All your postings to this newsgroup might go wasted!
Organization: Elitist Usenet Administrators, Turkey Division
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 06:57:47 GMT

In article <1992Dec18.173757.7781@vela.acs.oakland.edu> w8sdz@tacom-emh1.army.mil (Keith Petersen) writes:

>The continuation of the old newsgroup is disruptive to the operation of
>the new newsgroup.  The world shouldn't have to stop because someone
>goes on vacation.

It won't.  Posts will continue to appear in
comp.binaries.ibm.pc.archives, just as always.  (And, I might add,
just as they would even had David *not* gone on vacation.)  In a few
months, when David rmgroups this group, it will go away.

-- 
____ Tim Pierce                / 
\  / twpierce@unix.amherst.edu /               Rocks say goodbye.
 \/ (BITnet: TWPIERCE@AMHERST) / 
Xref: sparky news.groups:24601 alt.native:1471
From: hartman@ulogic.UUCP (Richard M. Hartman)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: what does it take to get someone to vote?
Date: 17 Dec 92 19:09:14 GMT
Organization: negligable

Dave (who needs no further introduction) Writes:
>rsk@gynko.circ.upenn.edu (Rich Kulawiec) Writes:
>>Those who have claimed
>>that "something is wrong" have, so far, not produced the slightest shred
>>of verifiable evidence.  I consider their claims baseless.
>
>We have provided evidence. The subject line was misleading (CFV: 
>rec.music.makers.* reorganization) and the vote topic was far enough
>down in the body of the CFV (greater than 21 lines) that it was probably 
>missed by those who have 24 line screens (a sizable percentage). 

Perhaps _a_ subject line was misleading (by your standards).  But 
we have also had posted the article ref # and subject line from an
article posted by an interested participant (more interested than
you apparently, since you did NOT post one) where the subject line
was perfectly explicit.  You seem to keep ignoring this one.


		-Richard Hartman
		hartman@ulogic.COM

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
"Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men?"

(sorry about the incomplete attributions -- this is a follow up
 to a follow up to the articles I was actually responding to...)
Newsgroups: news.groups,alt.native
From: emcguire@intellection.com (Ed McGuire)
Subject: Re: soc.culture.<whatever>.*
Organization: Intellection, Inc.
	<1992Dec16.202012.9338@gnosys.svle.ma.us>
	<BzDJx9.B1r@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 22:53:22 GMT

In article <BzDJx9.B1r@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> ksdavis@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Karleen S. Davis) writes:

   Another reason I am hesitating to support your suggestion is that the
   names of your proposed groups do not clearly indicate their content.
   To me, soc.culture.*.misc doesn't say "informational postings."  The
   other, soc.culture.*.d, does indeed say "discussion," but it's the
   type of discussion I was EXPECTING to find in the "misc" group.
   Correct me if I missed one, but it's not common to see a *.misc AND a
   *.d at the same level in a hierarchy.  They seem to mean the same
   thing.  

*.misc is used as a catch-all when there are other groups at the same
level.  For example,

	comp.dcom.lans.ethernet
	comp.dcom.lans.fddi
	comp.dcom.lans.misc

*.d is used to redirect discussion away from a non-discussion group
above it in the hierarchy.  Often the higher level group is moderated
to enforce this.  For example,

	rec.humor.oracle
	rec.humor.oracle.d

Other conventions may fit the NATIVE-L and NATCHAT mailing lists
better.  Here's a suggestion.

	soc.culture.<your-favorite>.announce (NATIVE-L)
	soc.culture.<your-favorite>.talk (NATCHAT)

*.announce is often, but not always, a moderated group.

Regards, Ed
-- 
Ed McGuire                   1603 LBJ Freeway, Suite 780
Systems Administrator/       Dallas, Texas 75234
 Member of Technical Staff   214/620-2100, FAX 214/484-8110
Intellection, Inc.           <ed@intellection.com>
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: paul@NeoSoft.com (Paul Hutmacher)
Subject: Re: How can I get my site to carry more groups
Organization: Greater Montrose UFO Appreciation Society & Data Haven
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 04:43:20 GMT

In article <1992Dec15.055722.27349@unvax.union.edu> lagrangj@unvax.union.edu (i'm a nut) writes:
>Well, golly-gee, don't you think the $17,000 I pay for tuition, not to mention 
>room and board money, is sufficient.  Considering that there are a couple 
>thousand of us paying tha tuition, I'd say so.


Reality check here.  Do you really pay 17k for tuition?  Is that per semester
or year?  Do you pay it out of your pocket or does Mom and Pop chip in a few
bills?  Inquiring minds want to know.

I submit you could buy a hell of a lot of news machine and newsfeed for 17k
a year.  Mail me half of that in advance and the balance in monthly install-
ments and I'll give you all the news you wish to read.

<snicker>


-- 
Paul Hutmacher                Houston, Texas               paul@NeoSoft.Com
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes)
Subject: Re: Give up, Dave, you've lost!
Reply-To: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov
Organization: Jet Propulsion Lab - Pasadena, CA
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 01:00:08 GMT

irilyth@fenris.claremont.edu (Josh Smith) writes:
>appears in the middle doesn't bother him at all. If it makes the elitist
>news admins happy to rename the group, fine; why does he care? He's not a
>namespace purity fanatic, he's a musician, and he doesn't care one bit what
>the namespace looks like.

But he would care if all of a sudden his traffic died, and not as many
people were out there as he'd known in the past. When he finds out that 
this is due to a newsgroup split, what's he going to do? If he complains
about it...he's flamed for being ignorant. 

If he'd known that this would happen, he'd have voted no. That's an 
ignorance that doesn't get cured by reading some documentation. That's
an ignorance that comes from lack of experience. 

That's why I'm flaming to this moment. 
-- 
Dave Hayes - Network & Communications Engineering - JPL / NASA - Pasadena CA
dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov       dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov         ...usc!elroy!dxh

   Knowledge is something you can use. Belief is something that uses you.
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: emcguire@intellection.com (Ed McGuire)
Subject: Re: DAVE HAYES MAY BE RIGHT!
Organization: Intellection, Inc.
	<1992Dec10.225305.12014@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> <8081@lib.tmc.edu>
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 17:11:31 GMT

In article <8081@lib.tmc.edu> jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay
Maynard) writes:

   a noted news.gropups.asshole like John Stanley

And I wondered if I was the only person leaning towards this
conclusion about John.  Is there a FAQ listing these assholes?  I
could sure use the warning next time . . . While I'm at it, will the
maintainer of the FAQ please add me to the list :)

Regards, Ed
-- 
Ed McGuire                   1603 LBJ Freeway, Suite 780
Systems Administrator/       Dallas, Texas 75234
 Member of Technical Staff   214/620-2100, FAX 214/484-8110
Intellection, Inc.           <ed@intellection.com>
Xref: sparky news.groups:24387 alt.native:1424