HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: foster@mtechca.uucp (self.attribute:=major_arcana[0].name)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Are there any pagans in Orange County?
Date: 10 Apr 92 14:44:39 PST
Organization: MAINTECH, A division of Volt Delta Resources, Inc. Orange, CA

In article <4405@radian.UUCP>, markbr@radian.UUCP (markbr) writes:
> In article <29DA364A.22910@orion.oac.uci.edu>, cortese@hepxvt.ps.uci.edu 
> (Janis Maria Cortese) writes:

Janis> I am living near Los Angeles, one of the largest cities in the 
Janis> whole frigging country, and one known for its crackpot population.
Janis> Why is it that everybody else knows where all these conferences 
Janis> are and has plenty of assemblies and festivals to go to?  I'm 
Janis> getting very irritated at not having anyone to network with.  I 
Janis> love paganism ... but I'm starting to get sick of doing it alone 
Janis> Goddamn it,
Janis> Janis

Mark> Well, obviously you're in the wrong part of CA. Go north, young 
Mark> lady! .. I've heard it said over & over, and it seems to be true: 
Mark> if you love SF, you'll hate LA, & vice versa. Been to LA 3 times 
Mark> ... & SF *once*.  Guess where I keep *wanting* to go for more 
Mark> than a day (hint: somewhere north of Orange Co.)

After puzzling over this message and the thread in which it appears 
(science fiction conventions), I figured Mark is using "SF" to refer 
to San Francisco and not to Science Fiction. His hint is not very 
useful, since both Los Angeles and San Francisco are north of Orange 
County. San Francisco is considerably further west, though.

Northern California is not completely wonderful for people with non-
mainstream values. There are active hotbeds of Xtian conservatism,
KKK chapters, redneck farmers, and country-western radio stations all
over the place. It's safest for pagans, or indeed for any sane person,
along the coast (including the eastern edge of the Bay), in large cities 
and near university campuses, both Cal State and UC.

I am surprised that Janis has not found anything or anyone to her liking
in the Laguna area. She might try posting a notice on the bulletin board
at Farenheit 451 bookstore. Laguna Beach is twelve miles or so down the
highway from UC Irvine. The bulletin board at Mother's Natural Foods and
Vegetarian Restaurant in Costa Mesa might help also, and is much closer 
to UCI. I'm not saying that either of these places will be any help, since 
the one board will have mostly messages about gay rights rallies and the 
other for animal rights rallies, but they are the closest thing to paganism 
I can think of. Mother's has a book section that has lots of cosmic-yoga-
consciousness-rainbow-LynneAndrews-mandala-unicorn junk amid the vegan 
cookbooks. It's probably not very pagan, but better than nothing.

Try also the bulletin board at Rutabegorz Restaurant in Fullerton (not the 
one in Tustin) and the coffeehouses that have sprung up near the intersection 
of Harbor and Newport Blvds: Blue Marble, Deidrich's and Alta.

Sorry for posting all this local stuff to the world, but my machine
won't let me limit news to California.

-jeff "the canyons in eastern OC probably hide a few pagans" foster
From: cortese@hepxvt.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
Subject: Re: Worship of the Greek gods
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: 13 Apr 92 18:19:18 GMT

In article <UdtpFaS00aw682YEd5@andrew.cmu.edu> wt0b+@andrew.cmu.edu (William Henry Timmins) writes:
>>In the course of a month, s/he will probably eat a little something from
>>most areas of the world, irregardless of season.  We seem to grow taller,
>>have sturdier skeletons, and live longer too.
>
>	Actually, there is good evidence that before agriculture was invented,
>humans were sturdier and longer lived/healthier than at any other point
>in history.
>	Reasons? Agricultural societies tend to foster systematic malnutrition.
>Also, hunter-gatherer lifestyles tend to spur the body to grow bigger
>and stronger than other lifestyles. And hunter-gatherers tend to have a
>better diet than others.

The "bigger=better" bit isn't necessarily true.  You don't have to be
bigger to be stronger.  Sometimes a small, thin body is eminently more
well-suited to a person's environment.  Witness the Bushmen -- they're a
lot smaller than we are, and with my big body (5'8") -- and light skin
-- I wouldn't be as able to survive in the Kalahari as they are. 

>	The only problem with hunter-gatherers, compared to modern
>civilization, is that they have no networks to help them survive, and
>their lack of medicine renders them sensitive to disease and trauma. On
>the other hand, modern man has a large list of degenerative disorders
>caused by our lifestyle.
>
>I recommend The Paleolithic Prescription for more information.
>
>-Me

I will.

Blessings,
Janis

Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: ai210@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Josh Steier)
Subject: Re: warfare and women
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio, (USA)
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 92 04:16:13 GMT


Unfortunately, the contention of Janis that there was no mass
environmental damage before 3000 years ago does not correspond to
historical fact. The Harappa-Mohenjo-daro civilization created a huge
desert in Gujerat and Sind that was originally the most productive 
of its agricultural areas. 

Their habit of building complex cities with baked bricks led to
the deforestation of the Indus valley. This produced floods which
necessitated the rebuilding of the cities, which required more wood
to fire the kilns. This produced a vicious cycle wherin each succesive
rebuilding of Harappa was inferior to the previous one, until the 
Aryan invasion in about 4000 BC put an end to the whole affair.

Since all surviving indegenous Indian religions are matriarchal, the
assumption has been made that Harappa was a matriarchal society. Their
language has not been translated, and the Aryans in typically Indo-
European fashion have
not left much to go on.

be well
josh
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson)
Subject: Re: alt.pagan survey
Organization: Hewlett-Parkard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1992 23:56:31 GMT

: >Yes and no. As you yourself posted, a person could be an atheist and still
: >be pagan. As such - religion is not involved. Also, why couldn't a person
: >be Judaic, Christian or Islamic and still be pagan? What do you call a  
: >person who practices the Christian faith but also practices Witchcraft,
: >for example? Or an Islamic person who also believes in other gods?
: 
: As I understand them, Judism/Christianity/Islam are exclusive sets.
: These religions proscribe that an adherant does not behave in the
: manners that you have described.

They are only exclusive in the eyes of some of the adherants of the
particular faith. The religious texts may say otherwise. For example,
in Christianity there is a commandment "Thou shalt have no other god
before me". Now, many Christians believe that this means that there
is only one god and you are prohibited from worshipping or believing
in any others. This is not what the commandment says - it simply
commands that the Christian God be the primary god at the top of the
heap. It says nothing about what you may do with "lesser" gods.

I would guess that Judaism and Islam are similar. 

Please keep in mind that what the leaders of some sect say is proscribed
does not make it so to all of the general faith. I see no reason that a
person has to be a member of one of the highly organized Christian/Islamic/
Judaic sects to be considered a member of that religion. 

Bill
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson)
Subject: Re: "experiments"
Organization: Hewlett-Parkard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1992 19:33:23 GMT

krikket@meltdown.chi.il.us (Doug Krick) writes:
: In article <EdsBhdG00WBM081=x3@andrew.cmu.edu>, de0t+@andrew.cmu.edu (Daniel S.
: >>It's not only "not the best of experiments", it's not an experiment at
: >>all.  What prediction are you testing?  The fact that someone who is
: >>told to feel something in their hand is likely to report feeling
: >>something in their hand?  And what is the control?  This is frankly
: >ludicrous.
: >>
: >>You ought to realize that this sort of plainly silly discourse tends to
: >>reinforce the perception of skeptics that the majority of psi-believers
: >>are incapable of thinking clearly about the subject, and are ignorant
: >>of the basics of the scientific method.
: 
: You're right.  Those "experiments" were NOT scientific experiments designed to
: show HOW magic workes.  They were off-the-cuff things to show that it DOES. 
: Because they were off-the-cuff, they were lacking things like controls.  Feel
: free to add your own, etc.  It's just supposed to be a STARTING BLOCK, not the
: end result, as many people here think!  (Also, since just about all of my
: science was given to me at the H.S. level, I am admittantly NOT the best
: person to devise a completely scientific experiment.  I admit this.  Can
: someone out there design one for us?)

I see you don't understand either. Those experiments do not show that magic
works. They would only show, at best, that some people may be susceptible
to suggestion.

... deleted ...

: I am not an advocate of "Psychic Hotlines" and the like.  95%+ of them are
: pure crap.  If you can devise an experiment that is completely scientific, I'd
: like to see it.  The problem here is that magic does not contradict the laws
: of nature.  Most skeptics expect to see blatent violations of the universe's
: laws.  That's not going to happen.  I'm not out to prove HOW magic works, just
: that it DOES.

No, sceptics just want proof of an occurance. This means that you can say
what will be done and then do it. It also means that other will independently
be able to duplicate your experiment. No "laws of nature" need to be violated.

Good luck with the proof - there are people who have spent their whole lives
in the attempt to prove that magic exists. So far, no proof has been produced.
Until it is provided, the skeptics will continue to either doubt the existance
of magic or to reserve judgement until more evidence is forthcoming.

Bill
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: rickheit@dragon (Erich Rickheit KSC)
Subject: Re: Sacrifice
Frankie: Nothing...why, do you think I should?
Organization: University of Lowell Computer Science, Lowell MA
Brad: What have you done with Janet
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1992 15:39:28 GMT

I'm going to stick by my guns (so to speak)

In article <29EB6400.482@noiro.acs.uci.edu> cortese@hepxvt.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese) writes:

>We are arguing semantics here as to whether or
>not the universe "sacrifices" for us.  The universe does what it does,
>and remains ignorant of whether our language and perceptions classifies
>it as a sacrifice or not.  It will continue to do what it will do,
>regardless of how our semantics classify it.

As I mentioned before, I'm a pantheist. (In my experience, most pagans are
pantheists or animists who behave as polytheists for reasons of semantic
convenience) In essence, I believe that the universe has will, and that the
acts the universe commits are willing acts.

One of the central principles of magic is that the perceptions of the
magician do indeed affect (or even effect) the rest of the universe; that
is, that the will of the magician is part of the will of the universe. And
since everything that is is part of the universe, everything partakes of
this will; ie, this divinity.

When you eats, something dies for your continued life. This is a willing
act; the dying animal or plant sacrifices itself for you (not, as you seem
to have interpreted me, that you are sacrificing the animal)

As I've noted, the theme of sacrifice runs very deep in the central stories
of pagan faiths, in all that I know of (which was the question I asked 'way
back when. Are there pagans without this sacrifice theme in their faith? How
do they reconcile themselves to the divinity of the world with this idea?)
Sacrifice is the central aspect of divinity. Even the English word is from
the Latin "to make sacred."

You include an applauded rant on the "pain must equal pleasure". I agree,
but I don't think we're talking about the same subject. It's not the
sufferring or loss that are significant, it's the contribution to the
divine; that's why stories or songs are appropriate sacrifices. When a
person gives fruit or meat to the gods, s/he is performing magic for the
sake of the divinity immanent in the gods; and for most people, the gift
must be real for the magic to be real. They are not doing so to make
their life difficult per se, they are doing so because the giving is
important. It is important because it mirrors the gift they are given by the
divine sacrifice.

I don't know you well enough to know your sacred stories. Is there a theme
of sacrifice in them? Meditate on it for a while, then come back to this.

			yerz,
-- 
			Erich the hahaha Mad
rickheit@hawk.ulowell.edu     AT&T: 508 453 1753  : USnail : Erich Rickheit KSC
         "Here, my ice lolly's melted --          :          85 Gershom Ave, #2
          You really _are_ the devil!"            :          Lowell, MA 01854
From: nc313127@wvnvms.wvnet.edu
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Questions burn Blue
Date: 9 Apr 92 20:37:33 GMT
Organization: West Virginia Network for Educational Telecomputing

Again(The sounds of panic flame-throwers charging),  I have some questions
for you all out there.  I have have a number of helpful reponses to my last
list of question, and am hoping for more discussion on them, but even I find it
hard to keep up with my mind and all its racing quetions.  I will disclaim
first though that I am not sure of any of my sourcesAnd if a do speak a untrue,
it is from either from the general ignorence of curiosity or from some garrbled
memory inside my overcrowded head.

	1)  Jim Morrision(of the Doors) was, and don't let all the movies and
	books fool you, a practicing shaman and a pagan.  In many of his poems
	(he was a poet not a rock-n-roll star) Jim mentions "The Lords who are
	secret among us."  I have heard other references to some secert "lords"
	who are not gods, but may be just as dangerous.  I think Blake and a
	few others mention them as well.  Alot of Jim's stuff is, from my
	undertanding baced on native americian beliefs(i don't know what tribe)
	I know it is pretty comic-booky and conspirital but I was just
	wondering if anyone has ever heard anything?(this question is probably
	get me toasted for sure)

	2)  Anyone have any suggestions on using the Tarot in rituals?

	3)  Speaking of rituals, anyone know I good one or two man ritual for 
	Baltine(sp?)?  I may have a friend who will join me, but though he is a
	pagan, he is not dedicated to any paticular religion and is considering
	Joining me for my ritual.  If not, I will be doing it alone but have
	been unhappy with my past self-designed rituals.

	4)  What religion is the "Land of Summer Twilght" linked with?  During
	meditaion once I some how arrived there for a short time.(I know, "see
	Alt.magick, but I can't get that one so I am asking your help) 
	Unfortunately I have not been able to return and would accept any
	advice.

	I will apreciate all reponses, though please be gental with the Flames.

		
					Azure	"Sometime the ignorance of my
						 intelligence scares me!"

	"Religion is the creators believing in the 
	 created which inturn created them."
	
	"Time is a spiral/ space is a curve/ 
		I know you get dissy/ but try not lose your nerve!"
From: rickheit@dragon (Erich Rickheit KSC)
Subject: Re: Sacrifice
Frankie: Nothing...why, do you think I should?
Organization: University of Lowell Computer Science, Lowell MA
Brad: What have you done with Janet
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1992 21:13:16 GMT

In article <29EB1C79.22977@noiro.acs.uci.edu> cortese@hepxvt.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese) writes:
>In article <1992Apr14.014502.15534@ulowell.ulowell.edu> rickheit@dragon (me) writes:

>But (and I am not saying you're wrong -- just asking the question) it
>seems like it's much more of a sacrifice for the animal involved. 

Well, yes. For the plant, too. As well the yeast, or fungus, or whatever.

A less wise-ass answer is to remind you that the animal being sacrificed is
typically a domestic animal, the raising of which takes as much time and
sweat as the raising of grain or fruit, and is therefore as much of a
sacrifice.

>I prefer to simply spend my time as well as I can...

My question was actually not whether there are pagans who do not perform
sacrifice, but whether or not the theme of sacrifice was universal (in the
pagan area)

>And it seems to me to be circular reasoning to say that the universe
>sacrifices for us.  If the universe does give us things, then if we are
>a part of the universe too, the universe gets it back when we partake.
>Kind of breaking even when you loan yourself money.

>And besides, I really do go for the "an it harm none" jazz.  That "none"
>is mighty inclusive!

(My difficulty in speech is due to being a pantheist who practices as a
polytheist for semantic? heuristic? reasons. I'll try another tack.)

Well, my feelings on 'an it harm none' are well known, but:

How do you reconcile 'harming none' with the act of eating, unless you
accept that the creature (animal, plant, whatever) being eaten is willingly
sacrifying its life for yours? Do you imagine that you are at the top of a
tree of sacrifices, that you are exempt from the essential act of divinity?

>>			yerz,
>Mine?

Yep, yours. You have to share it, though.

-- 
			Erich the hahaha Mad
rickheit@hawk.ulowell.edu     AT&T: 508 453 1753  : USnail : Erich Rickheit KSC
         "Here, my ice lolly's melted --          :          85 Gershom Ave, #2
          You really _are_ the devil!"            :          Lowell, MA 01854
Organization: University of Maine System
Date: Tuesday, 14 Apr 1992 01:12:01 EDT
From: Ailsa N.T. Murphy <IO81409@MAINE.MAINE.EDU>
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: starting a CUUPs chapter

i've decided to start a CUUPs chapter locally, as i know
the interest is out there, and the last person to attempt
it gave up, due to lack of response (he didn't advertise).
i plan to advertise, putting up flyers everywhere i know
pagans can be found.  i know U/Us have no trouble with
pagans, but most pagans, i would be willing to bet, ahve never
heard of U/Us.  any ideas on how to explain the U/U church
and CUUPs in a few words on a flyer?

please do NOT email answers!  my mail buffer is full to bursting
already...
                                              -ailsa
From: cortese@hepxvt.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
Subject: Re: Worship of the Greek gods
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: 10 Apr 92 21:39:26 GMT

In article <1992Apr10.062125.24252@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> pciszek@isis.cs.du.edu (Paul Ciszek) writes:
>cortese@hepxvt.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese) writes:
>
>>Why does everybody always assume that the Neanderthals DIED OUT?  They
>>were as much human as any Cro-Magnon.  Is it just possible that they
>>interbred or something?
>
>You may have something here; the name "homo sapiens neanderthalus" implies
>that they are merely a different variety, not a different species, but
>we really don't KNOW what their breeding status was.  However...
>
>>I once heard something that made sense to me.  If you got a Neanderthal
>>and dressed them up in modern clothing, you probably wouldn't give them
>>a second glance.  But an Australian aborigine?  THEM you'd look at.  And
>
>This I disagree with.  Supposedly the Ns were a "cold weather adaptation"
>of the human form.  Their faces were shaped differently than those of any
>modern human population, and supposedly their hands were better suited for using
>cruder tools without handles.  I suppose though, that if any had survived
>to modern times they would merely have been considered another "race" in
>the contemporary sense of the word.

Which is not a problem.  It is postulated that Asian features developed
as a result of a brief exposure to extreme cold; I'm talking FEATURES
here, not coloration or anything like that.  The deposits of lipids
around the eyes and the broad nose and other features would be great for
avoiding frostbite of sensitive organs. 

>
>>So why this problem with Neanderthals?  It's called interbreeding,
>
>OK, but this would mean that you side with the "polygenesis" folks rather
>than the "out of Africa" school.  Neanderthals predate "anatomically modern"
>humans, and none have ever been found in Africa.  Thus, if we are descended
>from Neanderthals, then development eveloution was not limited to a single
>continent.

But, if you acknowledge the existence of Neanderthals as separate from
the humans in Africa, then you are ALREADY supporting what you call
"polygenesis" and saying the people came from more than one source.  I
can't presume to talk about that.  What I take issue with is saying that
the Neanderthals died out.  That seems to me to be a pretty tremendous
assumption amde on the basis of, "Well, they didn't LOOK like us, so
they weren't us, and our ancestors must have just been better-adapted
than they were."

Blessings,
Janis C.


Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: trd54583@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (green spleen...)
Subject: Re: Seeking Polish Witches
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1992 19:35:56 GMT

Hmm, well, my grandmother still lives in the motherland. }:) She lives in
a little farming village and...well...farms. While I have not seen or heard
of anything like what your grandfather did, I know that many "pagan" tradi-
tions still remain. Many still plant and harvest according to the moon, etc.
The people are "very" Catholic, however, but the old traditions exist.
Some of these traditions are intertwined into the religious faith of people.
One example I can think of off the tip of my head (or the top of my tongue };)
is St. John's Night (Summer Solstice). There are many little neato cool things
people do. For example, girls through bouquets into a pond to somehow figure
out who will get married first. (I forgot exactly how they do this - my Polish
school teachers would be ashamed :)
 Anyway, I'd have to agree that he was practicing some kinda (Polish folk)
 magick. Oh well, I'll post more if I think of anything.
 *please excuse any babbling in above quote - I just had an exam*

			Peace and Pickles,
-- 
"1984 has past, forget about Big Brother
 Welcome to the 90's, where the government's
  your mother."            -Scatterbrain
-Tom Dobrowolsky--LunarWolf---trd54583@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu--(AntiKrist@uiuc.edu)-
From: xcz13@isuvax.iastate.edu
Subject: as
Reply-To: xcz13@isuvax.iastate.edu
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, Iowa
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1992 01:12:38 GMT

I to apologise it wasnt nesesary for me to be as nasty as I was-I had just
read a letter that was mailed to me that was rather nasty(from a dif. group)
I do have a tendicy to be a bit sensitive at tim. Thank you for the 
apology

ELF-KIN
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: xcz13@isuvax.iastate.edu
Subject: sp
Reply-To: xcz13@isuvax.iastate.edu
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, Iowa
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1992 19:30:26 GMT

elf-kin is disgraphic-look it up-it is not being silly nor is it ignorince
he that can not think beyond acusations to concidere the possability that
something might have a legit cause as an actual disability is in all 
actuality probably as ignorint or more ignorent then they claim the uthere
to be.

ELF-KIN	true wisdom is knowing that you dont know everything
		true wisdom comes from discovering your limits 
		true wisdom is excepting the limits of utheres
		true wisdom comes from understanding
From: c2mxcox@FRE.FSU.UMD.EDU
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Hi, I'm new here...Merry meet!
Date: 9 Apr 92 03:39:55 GMT

I know of a good source of Celtic history, lore, legends, and magick.
The book is: _Celtic_Magic_, by D.J. Conway (Llewellyn Magick Series)

Anyway, I'm a relatively new Solitaire, and I'd like to learn more about
the Craft.  I'd like to find more sources of knowledge, preferably cheap! :)
There's not many sources here in Frostburg, but over the summer, I'll be
in Baltimore, and there should be some stores there.

Thanx for any advise!
Blessed*Be,
Taliesin (Brian Byrd)