HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: genetic+@pitt.edu (Dr. Dave)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Cecil signs :-( :-( :-(
Date: 21 Jan 93 16:35:12 GMT
Organization: Department of Industrial Engineering

Thus spake cmk@athena.mit.edu (Charles M Kozierok):
 
>(David Grabiner) writes:
>> Thomas M Loughin writes:

>>> But is a firstbaseman who slugs 50 points above average more or less
>>> valuable than a shortstop who does the same (everything else held at
>>> average)?  What about 50 below.  

>>Offensively, the difference is the same; if your shortstop slugs 50
>>points below league average for a shortstop, while your first baseman is
>>50 points above, your team offensive totals will be the same as if both
>>players were league average.  One extra hit provides the same number of
>>runs, no matter who gets it.

>true, but i don't think that was Thomas's point. the question was
>rather "how much more valuable than an average 1B is a 1B who slugs
>50 points higher than average?" vs the same for a shortstop. 

But this is the same question.  Regardless of defensive position played, 
being x points of OPS above the league average at that position will contribute
the same number of marginal wins to the team record.

>the 
>value of a player relative to the mean should be (partly) based on the number
>of standard deviations from the mean. 

Why?  That will tell you how *rare* that performance is (and thus, to a degree,
how hard to replace it is), but not how much it contributes toward winning
right now.

Consider:  Mark McGwire's performance last year was many standard deviations
above the mean for AL first base, but was less than twice as valuable (in
terms of marginal wins) as the contributions of John Olerud, who was only one
or 1.5 standard deviations above the mean.  You get diminishing returns to
scale as you move up the "rareness" chart.

>and if the variance for SS
>is less than for 1B (and it probably is), then a SS who slugs 50 points
>over average is a more valuable commodity relative to other SS's than
>a 1B slugging the same amount over average.

Right, and is equally easy/hard to replace, but he's *not* contributing as
much (on offense) to winning.



-- 
       David Tate        |"Something there is that doesn't love a wall,
 dtate@unix.cis.pitt.edu | That sends the screaming liner over it 
 Prof. of Story Problems | And spills the bleacher-dwellers from their seats."
 Member ORSA, TIMS, SABR |  	"Fenway Wall", Robert Frost          
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: snichols@adobe.com (Sherri Nichols)
Subject: Re: Sandberg (was Re: Ty Griffen)
Organization: Adobe Systems Incorporated
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 22:28:45 GMT

In article <1993Jan22.122112.13976@bsu-ucs> 00bjgood@leo.bsuvc.bsu.edu writes:
>In article <2272@blue.cis.pitt.edu>, genetic+@pitt.edu (Dr. Dave) writes:
>> Thus spake 00bjgood@leo.bsuvc.bsu.edu:
>> 
>>>There was talk of moving Ryno back to third when Griffen got
>>>to the majors. He was thought to be THAT good. Well anyway Ryno became more
>>>than just a former MVP, he bacame the premier second baseman in history 
>> 
>> Hee hee.
>> 
>> Do they really believe this in Chicago?  Talk about parochialism...
>> 
>So who do you think was better? And please don't say Joe Morgan.

Too late, I already did.

But in any event, why do you think Ryne Sandberg is better than Joe Morgan?

Sherri Nichols
snichols@adobe.com
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: rstimets@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (robert and stimets)
Subject: Re: NL Schedule format
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 21:09:08 GMT

In article <1993Jan27.173159.4253@convex.com> gglover@convex.COM (george glover) writes:
>Excuse me for not remembering, but will someone out there please tell me the
>schedule format being used in the National League this year.  I know it is
>not the same as last year, and it is not like the American League.

It is the "balanced" 12-13 schedule.

RStimets
From: nissim@mary.fordham.edu (Leonard J. Nissim)
Subject: Re: Lefty Grove....
Organization: Fordham University
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 21:27:00 GMT
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Distribution: usa
X-Posted-From: mary.fordham.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In article <21631@ucdavis.ucdavis.edu>, 
ez027993@dale.ucdavis.edu (Gary She's Making Eyes Huckabay) writes...
> 
[intermediate post deleted] 
>In my opinion, Lefty Grove is the BEST pitcher in the history of baseball,
>bar none.  I don't think Young, Ruth, or Clemens deserves to be ranked 
>ahead of him, as you imply here.  Perhaps Clemens WILL deserve that at some
>point, though.
> 
>Grove...
> 
>Played 17 years in the bigs, and led the league in ERA 9 times in those
>17 years.  His career ERA of 3.06 is AMAZING when taken in the context of
>the era in which he played.  Clemens' career ERA of 2.89, when taken in
>context, is roughly comparable, perhaps not quite as good.
> 
>(Source: TB II.)
> 
>Of course, Grove played with Philadelphia, too, so there's that to consider,
>but I don't think anyone, with the exception of Koufax, has the peak
     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>value of Grove, and I don't think anyone comes close to the career value.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 

Bravo!! Thank you.  I was about to post a nasty response telling you to look 
at Koufax's stats for 1962-1966 (he retired after the '66 season with elbow
problems) but you have obviously done so already.  

An honest question:  Koufax pitched all home games in the LA Coliseum in 
1958-1961, which was obviously a gross, horrible place for left-handed
pitchers to face right-handed hitters.  Do there exist "normalized" stats
for Koufax for this period?  One would have to have his home and road 
records separately, and an adjustment for park effect would have to done
on the home record only.   

> 
>-- 
>*   Gary Huckabay   * "Well, with the Benzinger signing, I think you'd have  *
>* "Dabbling around  *  to agree the Giants have gone a long way towards      *
>*   the Gajarsky    *  plugging their outfield holes.  He's a switch hitter  *
>*       tree."      *  with power." - Walt Gray, Ch. 3 sports director.      *

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Leonard Nissim, notorious Dodger fanatic     (nissim@mary.fordham.edu)  
Disclaimer:  "I speak only for myself."   
World Championships:  Brooklyn-----1955   
                      Los Angeles--1959  1963  1965  1981  1988
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: C Robert Claydon <cclaydon@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>
Subject: Winter Work-out Reports (was: Todd Zeile)
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 05:34:26 GMT
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11]

RE:
Regarding trading Ziele, I think this is the year to keep him.  I've been
reading that (for the first time) he spent the whole winter working out and
training.  Pagnozzi was on KMOX the other night and mentioned that Zeile
has bulked up, is in great shape, and is looking at '93 as his year to
prove something.



Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm..... well, might be promising, might not.  I remember about '88 
or '89 when it was reported far and wide that Willie McGee was doing special 
winter work-outs.  One local sportswriter in Columbus went so far as to say 
he'd have years to top the ones Eric Davis and Darryl Strawberry had just had 
(not shabby, if you look back).  Well, not only did McGee not have a career 
high in homers, he didn't even hit 15 if memory serves, and spent a good part 
of the year on the DL...  so, the moral of the story is reports such as this 
are dubious predictors, at best, of upcoming performance.  (BTW: the 
sportswriter who made that prediction is now the editor of the Arts, 
Entertainment, Fashion, etc (ie: fluff) part of the paper... 8^).
Rob
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
:C Robert Claydon                  :"Men do not reject the Bible because:
:cclaydon@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu: it contradicts itself, but because :
:the Ohio State University         : it contradicts them."--E Paul Hovey:
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
From: wall@cc.swarthmore.edu (Matthew Wall)
Subject: Re: Lee Stevens to the Expos
Followup-To: rec.sport.baseball
Organization: Hi, I'm Matt, and I'm...a Boston Red Sox fan
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 21:14:29 GMT

My guess about the reason players might have no-trade clauses to Montreal
are

(1) players are ignorant...recall the statement by one of the Braves
(Nixon? Jordan?) about being afraid of going out in Toronto because he
didn't speak the language (I got friendly responses in Montreal with bad
french or good english even on St. Jean Baptiste day...maybe the Brave
didn't speak English too well.)

(2) it's a small-market city for endorsements, visibility, etc.; this, we
know, *does* affect a player's value on the free agent market as well

(3) the fans are very nice and pretty knowledgeable in Montreal -- but
pretty quiet most of the time, and the stadium is the pits (don't rag on
me, Montrealers, I've spent many a game in the Big O as an erstwhile Expos
fans and the stade with the roof on it is objectively the most depressing
place I've ever watched a ballgame, other enclosed parks included). This
may give the *FALSE* impression (no flames!! It's FALSE impression, OK)
that Montreal fans just don't care as much about the game.

(4) The players can't read half their clippings or do half the TV
interviews, so they feel less important


- Matt
---------------------------------------------------------
This space left intentionally blank until spring training.
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: eebonar@sn01.sncc.lsu.edu (Dave Bonar)
Subject: Re: Alex Cole's defense ... a question.
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.3-4   
Reply-To: eebonar@sn01.sncc.lsu.edu
Organization: News and Views from LSU
Distribution: na
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 13:48:28 GMT
Nntp-Posting-Host-[nntpd-19312]: sn01.sncc.lsu.edu

In article <1993Jan26.135052.4584@wvnvms.wvnet.edu>, cc007001@wvnvms.wvnet.edu writes...
>I was recently reading an article on rec.sport.baseball.fantasy where
>Dave Bonar commented that Alex Cole is not good defensively in center.
>I realize that he had a low fielding percentage in 1991 but everything
>else that I have seen indicates (to me) that he had good range.
> 
>> Rank Year   Player          DA 
>>   1  1991 Johnson, Lance   .639
>>   2  1991 White, Devon     .629   Looks like Devo's rep is deserved.
>>   3  1991 Pettis, Gary     .601
>>   4  1991 Cuyler, Milt     .594
>>   5  1991 Cole, Alex       .593   Here's a surprise!
>>      ...
>>  ??  1991 League           .573
>>      ...
> 
>So is Cole's reputation based on his errors alone?

	Cole's defensive rep. might well be based totally on his errors.
I don't have the defensive average or range factor info around (for any
years of interest) so I'll admit that I basically repeated what I've heard
on Cole (I haven't seen him play nearly enough to have an idea).  

Dave
__________
Dave Bonar
eebonar@lsuvax.sncc.lsu.edu
__________

Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: hora@ecf.toronto.edu (HO ROBERT ANDREW)
Subject: Re: schofield to the jays
Organization: University of Toronto, Engineering Computing Facility
Distribution: rec
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 22:02:27 GMT

In article <199325.4235.54100@dosgate> "drew carley" <drew.carley@canrem.com> writes:
>
>DM>Gee, if I were a Jays fan, and thank god, I'm not, I'd be worrying about
>DM>their third and fourth starters, too.  And maybe their second starter.
>   PUH...LEASE!The only pitcher that wasn't in the starting rotation
>   last year when the Jays became the best team IN THE WORLD is Dave
>   Stewart(not a bad addition don'tcha know)As far as Lee is concerned

They may have been on last year's staff but last year, Morris and Stottlemyre
were the fourth and fifth best starters on the team.  With Cone and Key
gone, Morris and Stottlemyre move up to number two and three on the
depth chart; somehow, I don't think this is making the rest of the AL East
quiver in their boots.

>   he was playing so far above his head offensively last year he was
>   suffering from permanent nosebleeds.Schofield will certainly be a
>   welcome and settling addition to the left side of the infield.

Hmmmm.  A 30 year old shortstop coming off arm surgery with a career
OBP ~.300 and career slugging a few points higher.  Not much of an
addition in my book.


>   I too thank God that you are not a Jays fan!BTW who do you like?
>
>Drew Carley,Toronto Canada
>---
>  DeLuxe 1.25 #2177  Silly Rabbit;Tricks are for Hookers
>--
>Canada Remote Systems  - Toronto, Ontario
>World's Largest PCBOARD System - 416-629-7000/629-7044


-- 
Robert Ho
Univ. of Toronto
hora@ecf.toronto.edu
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: fls@econ.duke.edu (Forrest Smith)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: 1993 MLB WS odds
Date: 26 Jan 93 14:44:03 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Duke University; Durham, N.C.

>Excerpts from netnews.rec.sport.baseball: 22-Jan-93 Re: 1993 MLB WS odds
>by ajsmith@ualr.edu 
>> I dunno I have this fantasy of seeing Florida and Colorado fighting it out
>> in the NLCS (hey stranger things have happened!)
               ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Such as ? ? ?

>Just curious.

A bad actor got elected President.
-- 
   __  __                                     
  |__ |__                             %  
  | |  __|  fls@keynes.econ.duke.edu  %  See what the bears in the
    |__                               %  back room will have.
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: prb@chinet.chi.il.us (Paul Botts)
Subject: Re: Change the game?
Organization: Chinet - Public Access UNIX
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 17:15:56 GMT

In article <1993Jan26.194254.1@ulkyvx.louisville.edu> pjtier01@ulkyvx.louisville.edu writes:
>In article <roney.728014794@sfu.ca>, roney@selkirk.sfu.ca (Chris J. Roney) writes:
>> Greg Ridsdale <greg_ridsdale@ausqm1.sps.mot.com> writes:
>> 
>> 
>>>I am in favor of either no DH or both leagues using the DH.  The current
>>>system is awkward for both teams in the Series and the All star game.  
>> 
>> (stuff deleted)
>
>What's so awkward about it?  I think it's one of the interesting quirks
>of the game and I see [no] harm in continuing it in its current split form.
>                                                              P. Tierney

I agree! And I thought I was about the only fan in the world who thought
that about it.
From: hhenderson@vax.clarku.edu
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: RE: Morgan vs Sandberg
Date: 27 Jan 93 16:11:56 GMT
Organization: Clark University

Jim Mann wrote:

>While I think race sometimes enters into it, I don't think this
>is prevelant as several people have implied.  I think
>"telegenic" IS a bigger part of it, but this is NOT limited to
>white players.  Look at Kirby Puckett.

And Barry Bonds.  He's about as telegenic as you can get.

Heather
HHENDERSON@vax.clarku.edu
From: bspencer@cs.mcgill.ca (Brian SPENCER)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: 1993 MLB WS odds
Date: 21 Jan 93 21:38:15 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: SOCS - Mcgill University, Montreal, Canada

In article <21JAN199315485325@mary.fordham.edu> nissim@mary.fordham.edu (Leonard J. Nissim) writes:
>                        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>Cruel, very cruel.  Probably you have not gotten over the 1981 NLCS, 5th
>and deciding game, 9th innining, Rick Monday steps up to the plate ...      
>
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Leonard Nissim, notorious Dodger fanatic     (nissim@mary.fordham.edu)  
>Disclaimer:  "I speak only for myself."   
>World Championships:  Brooklyn-----1955   
>                      Los Angeles--1959  1963  1965  1981  1988
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Talking about cruel: Did you have to remind us Expos fans of that 
day 8-( . The homerun that almost killed a franchise. No kidding. 1993
just might be the first year that Expos fans have been enthusiastic
about the team since that Rick Mon...Mon...Mon...I can't say his
name...homerun. And to think L.A. destroyed the Yankees in the WS that
year. That was one World Series I couldn't watch. If someone mentions
Steve Roger's name to an Expos fan, even today, all they remember is
that homerun. Sigh.

Brian SPencer
Organization: Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 07:35:32 -0500 
From: Ken_Ziolkowski@transarc.com
Subject: Jerry Don Update


  Hey, have you guys been sleeping or what.

  No one noticed that Miami signed the one and
only Jerry Don Gleaton to a minor league contract.

  And the Pirates thought he was washed up.

  Heh.

  Has there been any rumblings in the vicinity of
Fleer, Texas?  Maybe rumours from the Acker Ranch.
Or secret workouts at the U of Texas?

  If Jerry Don can attempt a comeback, wny can't our
man, the Ackmeister.

KZ
From: Timothy.J.Young@dartmouth.edu (Timothy J. Young)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Followup to TWO topix....
Date: 29 Jan 93 01:35:39 GMT
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH
X-Posted-From: InterNews1.0a5@newshost.dartmouth.edu

In article <21892@ucdavis.ucdavis.edu>
ez027993@dale.ucdavis.edu (Gary King's X Huckabay) writes:

> 
> Not.  Kelly, Hall, and Mattingly?  Welcome to mediocrity.
> 
> +I would love nothing better than for the veterans on the Jays to falter and the
> +Yankees come in second or first.  But in order for the Yankees to contend,
> +Steinbrenner has got to let the team gel without his influence.  That, I
> +believe, is the main problem.
> 
> Mattingly at first, Showalter in the dugout, Steinbrenner in the owner's box,
> and BERNIE watching GERALD play?  Ick.

Exactly! There it is. Those free agent signings won't help either.
Jimmy Key is a mediocre pitcher, Spike Owen is a mediocre (at best) SS,
they've got mediocrity all over the infield (Mattingly - not what he
used to be, Gallego, Owen, Kelly/Velarde/soembody in some combo) AND at
catcher (Nokes, Stanley.) If O'Neill is more successful than I predict,
if Tartabull stays healthy, if Key does a good job in N.Y., if somebody
takes charge in the infield, it can happen. I'm not saying it won't.
But as of now, I think that Toronto and Baltimore have better chances.
I wouldn't count out Cleveland or Milwaukee either. 




-Tim Young, Dartmouth College, Class of '96
The opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of Dartmouth
College, its students, or anyone else.
"Not everyone can carry the weight of the world..."- R.E.M.
From: ez027993@dale.ucdavis.edu (Gary Prisoner Huckabay)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Tom Tippett and Defensive Average
Date: 26 Jan 93 17:05:34 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Shells of Agony - the Wartime Diaries of Mr. Peanut.

Steven Jascourt writes:

>Does this mean Tippett is aware of DA? The range ratings he assigned for PTP
>the past several years have been abominable, both compared to DA and the
>subjective judgements of astute observers, but this year's ratings look
>pretty good. Do you (Sherri or Dr. Dave or anyone else) know how he came up
>with range ratings in the past and what he did differently this year? 

When I talked to Tom and others at PtP, I was told they just use range 
factor for defensive ratings.  Also, I wasn't aware the '92 PtP player
disk was out.  Any word on 5.0?

Also - Player disks just don't serve any purposes for our league.  They
come out WELL after we need them.  The DTBL staff does all the research and
data entry, and produces the data disks within *3* days of the end of the
season - I don't know why PtP can't do the same thing.  That's four people
working as volunteers.  I expect a company would be able to do it easier.

Also for the PtP 5.0 wish list - send me things you'd like to see added
or removed from PtP 4.03 before the next release, and I'll be happy to pass
that information along to Mr. Tippett.

LIKE DEFENSE BEING VALUED LESS! 

hard grounder between first and second
Baerga dives
he gloves it
he gets up
and throws to first for the out.

I get tired of seeing that 8-10 times per game.


-- 
*    Gary Huckabay    * "If money....if love was in...your life....it's run    *
* "Where the HELL is  *  out...got to realize it's time...Confusion...delusion *
*   the new Living    *  alive in destitution...if it could only be different..**   Colour album?!?"  *  if only you could run away from it." - J. Gaskill.    *
From: hora@ecf.toronto.edu (HO ROBERT ANDREW)
Subject: Re: Best BB simulators (was RE: EWBB)
Organization: University of Toronto, Engineering Computing Facility
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1993 03:08:57 GMT

In article <1993Jan23.184546.1@ulkyvx.louisville.edu> pjtier01@ulkyvx.louisville.edu writes:
>In article <C1A7y0.HA5@acsu.buffalo.edu>, v393qp56@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Viktor Brenner) writes:
>> I am asking about what simulations out there are best and most complete.
>> I have APBA, which is a good simulator but requires additional purchases
>> to 
>
>These responses refer to Tony Larussa's Ultimate Baseball

<list of positive attributes of TLUB deleted>

>The game is an excellent simulation.  As I've mentioned before on this line, 
>you can buy extra disks at $15 a pop which have all of the actually stats 
>of the actual players for a given year.  There are disks for '90 and '91 
>with '92 coming out shortly.  You can play seasons of 162 or 81 games, or
>1, 2, 3, and 4 game round robins.  Also, there are "Great Teams" player
>disks which I have not purchased.  I've had this game for a few years and
>I love it, but I am interested in a new one so I would appreciate suggestions.
>
>                                                             P. Tierney
>



Anyone planning on getting Tony Larussa's Ultimate Baseball might want to
wait until later this year when the 256-colour version is released.  Besides
the graphics improvements, I believe there will be other changes/additions to
the system.  If you want more info, I think there's a preview for it in
the latest issue of Gamebytes magazine (which is available via anonymous ftp
at wuarchive.wustl.edu).
-- 
Robert Ho
Univ. of Toronto
hora@ecf.toronto.edu
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: donl@iscp.bellcore.com (Don Locrasto)
Subject: Re: Playoffs
Organization: Bellcore
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 93 14:16:51 GMT

An article in today's (1/21) Newark (NJ) Star Ledger said that
niether CBS or NBC was interested in another round of playoffs,
NBC saying that the LCS hasn't "sold out" in about 5 years,
and that the extra round would be a "cable or local TV thing"
(or something like that).

Don LoCrasto
From: 93jll@williams.edu (Jennifer Lehoczky)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: 1993 MLB WS odds
Date: 24 Jan 93 17:05:27 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Williams College, Williamstown, MA
NNTP-Posting-Host: hancock.cc.williams.edu


Frankly, the best pick in there looks to be Cleveland. Contender
potential at long odds. Why hasn't anybody pointed them out? Frisco,
Texas, KC have more of a shot?!

Houston looks good too, but money still has to be on Atlanta, even
with the short odds.
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball