From: HOLFELTZ@LSTC2VM.stortek.com
Subject: Re: B. Thiering and her new book
Organization: StorageTek SW Engineering
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 22:57:10 GMT

In article <1992Jul28.021354.17046@newsroom.utas.edu.au>
Tim.ONeill@english.utas.edu.au (Tim O'Neill) writes:
 
>
>In article <thurston.712260648@phyast.nhn.uoknor.edu>, thurston@phyast.nhn.uoknor.edu (Tad Thurston) writes:
>>
>>
>>
>> Hey, has anybody read Barbara Thiering's new book called Jesus and
>> the Dead Sea Scrolls?   I just bought it and scanned it through, as well
>> as being familiar with the PBS special that gave her theory some lip
>> service.  Does anybody have some good refutations to her theory?  It
>> sounds pretty good and thorough to me, but I am interested in hearing
>> some critical discussion by those much more knowledgeable in the field
>> than I am.
>>
>> Lemme have it!!!
>
>It's total crap. I've been reading on the origins of christianity
>for some years now and I've read some really stupid stuff (eg
>'Holy Blood and Holy Grail'), but having just finished Thiering's
>'Jesus the Man' I'd have to say she wins the prize for the greatest
>load of unadulterated bullshit I've ever read.
 
I too have read about the origins--big deal.
 
>For those who aren't in the know, Dr Barbara Thiering is a part-time
>lecturer at Sydney University here in Australia.   ...
> ...                                         she claimed that the scrolls
>are contemporary with Jesus, that Jesus is the person that is refered to
>in them as the 'Wicked Priest' while the leader of the scrolls community,
>'the Teacher of Righteousness', was John the Baptist. She claimed that
 
REisenmann also said the same thing several years ago.   Coinage usage
and textual content show that the DSS were indeed contemporary with
Jesus.  The difference between (RE) and (BT) is that (RE) felt that
Paul with the wicked priest while Jesus was the teacher of righteousness.
 
Essenic tradition, as viewed by (RE) has a much wider application than
just the Qumran group, that the (Q) were just one of several factions
which overlapped.  Within this definition, Jesus fits well as an
Essene--so to John the B and Paul.  The whole Essenic tradition revolves
around family pre-eminence in the Jewish community (ie the Davidic Kingship
or Messanic belief, as well as the other messanic expectations.
 
(RE) was the driving force behind the disclosure of the DSS away from the
RCC cartel that held them etc.  Now I don't care if either he or (BT) is
right; but there were certain ties between the Jersulam Community and the
Qumram folks and that Christianity had its foundations in the Essenic movement.
Which was a movement of works, not of faith.  This explains alot of
the Biblical problems of saving by faith or works.  James the Just,
borther of Jesus, believed in works; whereas Paul, the missionary,
found it easier to gain converts by requiring faith only.
 
>the gospels were written in a kind of code, which could only be read
>if you had the right key (she, of course, had the key). Using her
>'pesher technique' Thiering proceeded to explain that such events as
>the Virgin Birth and all the other miracles never actually occured,
 
Nice twist!  All miracles can be explained, if you know all the facts,
just like all magic, if you know the tricks.  Pesherism is not new,
the Egyptian were one of several master of it in their religious
writing.
 
Virgin birth?  What is a virgin?   Todays virgin is a world apart
from then.  You should already know, in those days, a virgin was
a young girl who had not given birth to a child.  Not one who had
never experienced sexual involvement.
>
>   ....     ....
>
>Most of the controversy after the ABC documentary was over her denial
>of basic christian doctrines, and the debate fast became one between
>christians and Thiering's supporters. What seems to have been
>ignored is that all non-christian scholars consider Thiering's
>ravings to be total bullshit as well.
 
What group of scholars?   I don't live in Australia (but I've
been there--nice place) so I don't know the controversy of basic doctrine
denial, but I can tell you this, early day Christianity is nothing like
current day Christianity (I'm not sure current day desires capitalization)!
>
>All was quiet on the Thiering front until earlier this year when she
>released a new book, 'Jesus the Man'. Before I read it I was aware of
>her theory's general outlines, but rejected it on the grounds that
>the scrolls are dated to two centuries before Jesus. She has arguments
 
Condemn before investigation--nice!  I can copy the early American
caliography, does that mean I lived 200 years ago!  Get real!  It
not how the text is printed, but the contents within the context
of known history thats important. (RE) has shown that to be the
case.
 
>against the accepted dating of course, but they are seriously flawed
>and have been universally rejected by scrolls scholars.
 
(RE) hasn't.  In fact his suggestions are proving to be true.  (BT)
dates are based upon (RE).
 
>  <<  ....... >>
 
These deleted comments were covered in another post.
 
>    ...                              Before I read her book I thought
>she was a scholar who had got a bit carried away. Now, I can quite
>honestly say that i wouldn't rule out the possibility that she is
>mad: the book is really that bad.
 
Tell us how you really feel.
 
>If anyone really wants me to post a more detailed critique, as well
>as information on why her re-dating of the scrolls is total crap I
>will do so.
 
Please do so!
 
>            Until then, my advice to christians and fellow non-christians
>alike is'Avoid Thiering's stuff like the plague (unless you want
>a damn good laugh)
>Tim O'Neill
 
And I say, READ IT!
 
 
A poor Wayfaring Stranger [some say, a Strange One] in a strange land,
 
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