HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: micha@ecrc.de (Micha Meier)
Subject: Re: homeopathy
Reply-To: micha@ecrc.de
Organization: European Computer-Industry Research Centre
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 12:33:18 GMT

In article 1hps9bINNdc6@rave.larc.nasa.gov, kludge@grissom.larc.nasa.gov (Scott Dorsey) writes:
>Now, personally I don't use homeopathic medicine, because I have a great
>problem with using anything whose mode of action is completely unknown.

I might be wrong, but isn't the mode of action of most usual medicaments based
merely on statistical evidence? I mean, e.g. "the substance X is known
to decrease the blod pressure", but are the reasons for this and all further
effects of this substance known? I guess not because the way of working
of the human organism as a whole is not completely known, there are
parts of the organism whose functions are partly or totally unknown, so IMHO
the only thing one can say about classical medicaments is that they have
a certain effect which may be statistically observed.

As far as homeopathy is concerned, I would say that its mode of action
is completely unknown and it is harder to reproduce it, because it has
different effects on different people. But you really cannot say that
the difference between homeopatic and allopatic medicaments is that the
effect of the latter is completely known and predictable.
The theory about energy imprints or vibrations or similar is, in my opinion,
not a very good one, as it explains one unknown with even more unknowns.
I prefer saying that the principle behind homeopathy is unknown, to developing
various crazy pseudo-physical theories about it.

I think that the effect of homeopatic medicaments cannot be purely
energetic. I would favor a theory based on information. Did anybody
try to apply Sheldrake's fields to homeopathy?

--Micha


---
Micha Meier			------------------------------------------------
ECRC, Arabellastr. 17		The opinions expressed above are private
D-8000 Munich 81		and may not reflect those of my employer.
micha@ecrc.de, Tel. +49-89-92699-108, Fax  +49-89-92699-170

Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative,sci.med
From: bsimon@elvis.stsci.edu (Bernie Simon)
Subject: Re: homeopathy
Organization: None. This saves me from writing a disclaimer.
	<1h7grbINNnoc@skat.usc.edu> <BSIMON.92Dec22130323@elvis.stsci.edu>
	<dunbar.725052578@beagle>
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 20:54:39 GMT

An osteopath is a physician who is taught bone manipulation as a
method of therapy. This manipulation is similar to chiropractic except
that osteopaths do not limit themselves to spinal manipulation.
Osteopaths also study the regular allopathic curriculum and most
practice solely as allopathic physicians and do not perform
manipulation even though they are taught it. A good summary of the
different types of alternative medicine can be found in Andrew Weil's
book "Health and Healing".

--
Bernie Simon	(bsimon@stsci.edu)		ad astra per aspera

Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative,sci.med
From: schumach@convex.com (Richard A. Schumacher)
Subject: Re: Orthomolecular Approaches to Medicine
Organization: CONVEX Computer Corporation, Richardson, Tx., USA
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 01:42:35 GMT
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

In <1h84lqINNbuq@charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu> fish@ecst.csuchico.edu (Kevin Haddock) writes:

[several howlers about Linus Pauling]

>If anyone has more precise information I would love to hear it.

You are grossly mis-informed about Pauling. Go pick up any biography
of him and read it, instead of spreading nonsense about him (such as
winning a Nobel prize for inventing "orthomolecular medicine").

Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
From: mrl@nerus.pfc.mit.edu
Subject: RE: Fibromyalgia
Organization: MIT PLASMA FUSION CENTER
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 15:28:19 GMT

In a previous article, blaisec@sr.hp.com (Blaise Cirelli) wrote:
>Fibromyalgia
> 
>Anybody out there have this diagnosis. I do and would like to share 
>information about treating this "syndrome". 

There is a Fibromyalgia mailing list.  I will include the info on that at the
end of this message.

>Have tried regular MD's; accupuncture; physical therapy; some homeopathy
>remedies that were self prescribed; etc.

I will forward you info that has been posted on the list and sci.med dealing
with treatment for it.  The basic treatment is a low dose of Elival plus
regular exercise.   It is thought that sleep disorders trigger it, so it is
important to get regular sleep.  The above treatment helps with that.

------------

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Mark London
MRL@NERUS.PFC.MIT.EDU
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
From: sdb@ssr.com (Scott Ballantyne)
Subject: Re: homeopathy
Organization: ScotSoft Research
	<1992Dec23.193956.24482@dgbt.doc.ca>
	<1992Dec23.225358.10256@das.harvard.edu>
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1992 23:47:12 GMT

In article <1992Dec23.225358.10256@das.harvard.edu> bochner@das.harvard.edu (Harry Bochner) writes:

   It is, of course, important to distinguish anecdotes from solid evidence.
   But as long as the person who posts the anecdote doesn't try to disguise
   it as something it isn't, I don't see any problem.

For determining whether or not something works, anecdotes are
worthless.  Yet anecdotes are powerful, more gripping that statistics,
and even experienced researchers have been known to be swayed by them.
Furthermore, not everyone understands the worthlessness of the
anecdote, as has been amply demonstrated by the many posting I have
read here today which present 'my experience' as proof of efficacy.

   There are other forums, such as sci.med, available for therapies that have
   been thoroughly researched. The purpose of this group, as I understand it,
   is to provide a forum where information about personal experiences can be
   exchanged. That includes anecdotal evidence.

You understand it differently than some of us. I thought it was for a
discussion of alternative medicine. This should include discussions of
effectiveness and safety, neither of which can be demonstrated by
anecdotes. Excahnges of personal experiences can be had in the soc.*
and alt.sex.* groups.

   Notice that this group is not in the sci (science) hierarchy.
   I don't think a demand for rigorous scientific method is consistent with
   the goals of the group.

I do not think that such a demand is out of place. Kaminski (the
originator of the group) assured everyone in the preliminary
discussions that technical/scientific discussions would be *welcomed*.
While expertise shouldn't be required, it is not out of place.

sdb
---
sdb@ssr.com
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
From: dean@vexcel.com (Dean Alaska)
Subject: Re: homeopathy
Organization: VEXCEL Corporation, Boulder CO
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 18:23:40 GMT

In article <1992Dec23.171758.3859@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> lfoard@Turing.ORG (Lawrence C. Foard) writes:
>In article <BSIMON.92Dec23071932@elvis.stsci.edu> bsimon@elvis.stsci.edu (Bernie Simon) writes:
>>If you read my first post, you would have seen that I listed several
>>double blind studies which show the effectiveness of homeopathic
>>medicines. Can you cite some studies which show that homeopathic
>>medicines do not work any better than placebos?
>
>Yes. Its called avagodro's (sp?) number :-)
>
>The delutions I've heard of being used in homeopathic medicine don't leave
>even a single molecule of the substance!
>
>If there was some substance left then it would make sense to ask about
>its effects.
>-- 
>------          Join the Pythagorean Reform Church!               .
>\    /        Repent of your evil irrational numbers             . .
> \  /   and bean eating ways. Accept 10 into your heart!        . . .
>  \/   Call the Pythagorean Reform Church BBS at 508-793-9568  . . . .

The mistake in using this to dispute homeopathy is the assumption that
homeopathic remedies "work" in a similar way to allopathic drugs.
Homeopathic remedies for infections do not kill the bacteria, they
reinforce the ability of the person's defensive capability to kill
the bacteria.

One possibility is that the dilution process (which is more complex
than just a simple dilution) modifies the matrix such that the
immune system believes it is seeing the actual ingredient.  The
exact operation of the immune system is still not known, so
alternative methods cannot be discounted.  The theory behind
Avogadro's number may challenge the part of homeopathy that involves
the microdose, but it does not disprove it.  Note also that the
microdose is not central to homeopathy.  It was a later addition
that was found to increase its effectiveness.  The Law of Similars
is the foundation of homeopathy.
-- 
==============================================================================
A thought for the holidays:
   "Wine is living proof that God loves us and likes to see us happy"
	- Benjamin Franklin			dean@vexcel.com
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
From: la1002@albnyvms.bitnet
Subject: Nutrition
Reply-To: la1002@albnyvms.bitnet
Organization: University of NY at Albany
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 92 22:19:29 GMT

I would cross-post this to the nutrition group, but don't know how,
so I'll try to post there also.
 
I need to know how much of the individual nutrients are necessary,
how manyy are recommended by RDA and how many are necessary according to
non-traditional medicines.
 
For example, I understand that the amount of protein required by RDA
and by non-traditional medicine is VASTLY different, with the RDA stating
a MUCH higher required amount.
 
As a new vegetarian, I need to know what I should be getting, what I was
getting, what I am getting and what I WILL be getting in my diet.  I 
can't really afford to see a nutritionist right now (not that I necessarily 
agree with what s/he may have to say).

Thanks in advance,
Clover
la1002@albnyvms.bitnet
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative,sci.med
From: phr@telebit.com (Paul Rubin)
Subject: Re: Orthomolecular Approaches to Medicine
Organization: Telebit Corporation; Sunnyvale, CA, USA
Date: 22 Dec 92 19:20:40

    [Linus Pauling] just about won a third Nobel for discovering the
    double helix of DNA but because of his fight against above ground
    nuclear testing he was labeled a subversive and not allowed to
    travel to France where they had powerful enough electron
    microscopes to allow him to do his research.  He speculated that
    DNA had structure something like a rope (which is pretty close in
    my opinion!).

    If anyone has more precise information I would love to hear it.

See "The Double Helix" by James Watson for more info.

Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
From: madhavn@madhavn.mentorg.com (Madhav Nerurkar)
Subject: Re: homeopathy
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 20:28:55 GMT
Organization: mentor
Keywords: 
Followup-To: 

This idea came up in a discussion with a friend whose wife has had a kidney
transplant. To suppress rejection of the foreign kidney she is regularly
given a drug called Cyclosplorin (not sure about spelling) by Sandoz. This
medicine suppresses immune response and from what I could gather, in a 
general way. 

It seems that at an abstract level the symptom this drug induces is the same
as in case of AIDS: suppression of immune response. Couldn't this drug then
be used, in infinitesimal doses, as a medicine for AIDS ? Has homeopathy 
been attempted for AIDS at all or is the immune response itself is the 
mechanism homeopathy relies on ?

I would appreciate comments and pointers.


Thanks, Madhav Nerurkar

Disclaimer: These are my opinions.
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
From: buzz@wccf.mit.edu (Sheila Gay Buzzee)
Subject: Cold and Flu treatment- questions
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Keywords:  colds, flu, treatment
Organization: MIT - Whitaker College
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 17:04:00 GMT

  Hello all.  I am new to the conference, and if I have missed discussion of 
remedies for colds and flu please send responses to me, not the net, since I 
don't want to create repeditive postings.

  That said, what seems to work for colds and/or the flu?  I have a cold now, 
and this is the first one in years and I can't remember what made them go away 
in the past.  I have the standard head congestion, sneezing, sore throat, and 
cough.  So far using a vaporizer at night and drinking herbal tea has provided 
slight relief, but I'd really like to stop sneezing and blowing my nose before 
I don't have any skin left!

  What works for you?

  Thanks,
    Sheila Buzzee

    Buzz@wccf.mit.edu
    617-235-8096
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
From: schumach@convex.com (Richard A. Schumacher)
Subject: Re: War cry of the scientific
Organization: CONVEX Computer Corporation, Richardson, Tx., USA
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 23:38:07 GMT
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.


>the disease itself and the medicine, herb or treatment. Rather the 
>treatment works to bring the body back into balance allowing it to correct
>the dis-ease naturally.

This sounded good, before people knew anything about how bodies work.
We have no such excuses today.


>Because there is an unclear relationship between the actual bacteria, virus,
>or whatever, and the medicine or treatment, there can never be the kind of
>'proof' that some of you are demanding (or at least I am led to believe
>based on my begining knowledge of such things).

Nuts. Anyone with no knowledge of computers can nevertheless be shown
that computers work. A complete explanation of mechanism, while helpful,
is not required to demonstrate effectiveness. It was easy to prove in the
1700s that limes or sauerkraut prevented scurvy, long before anyone ever
heard of vitamin C.



>Hell, you're all right, my asthma could have mysteriously disappeared all
>by itself. In a court of law, I wouldn't have a chance in hell of proving
>my case.
...
>My ND didn't suggest I stop using my inhaler. That would be foolish.

Right on all counts.


>Then again, this is all easy for me, I'm employed and well insured. I have
>choices. Many others don't

Now we get to the crux of the matter. Alternative medicines are fads for 
dilettantes, and last resorts for the desperate. What sane person with a
choice would treat, say, ventricular insufficiency or a tetanus infection
with alternative medicine? Alternative medicine types were getting hypnotised
for gout in the 1700s, buying magnetic corsets for treating backaches in the 
1880s, taking radium mud baths for abdominal cancer in the 1920s, and using 
Eastern medicine for everything at all times. The scams and self-delusions
change only in form, not in substance.


Sorry to be so cranky about this, but we should not tolerate loose talk and
careless thinking when peoples' health and lives are at stake. Some naif might
mistake some of what passes here for actual wisdom.

Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
From: schumach@convex.com (Richard A. Schumacher)
Subject: Re: homeopathy
Organization: CONVEX Computer Corporation, Richardson, Tx., USA
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 01:36:43 GMT
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.


Of course, the fact that homeopathic preparations have no value
beyond that of a placebo may have something to do with the
decline of homeopathy.
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
From: O1ADAMS@VM1.CC.UAKRON.EDU (Debbie Adams)
Subject: Pancreatitis
Organization: The University of Akron
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 03:33:56 GMT

My 14 year old son is in the hospital with an NG tube and IV's and the
works.  The diagnosis is Pancreatitis.  His amylaze (?) level was
1100 and I was told the normal is between 200 to 300.  The nurses and
doctor's seem to be stumped at why this happend.  He is very healthy
otherwise.  They said it is very uncommon in children.  (No he doesn't
drink, although you'd be surprised how many times I was asked that.  And
he doesn't have cystic fibrosis.)  The medication they're giving him
is working well.  The very next morning after he was admitted his
amylaze (?) level has come down to 500.  His tube is very far from
being clear though.  Does anyone have any suggestions how a 14 year
old could possibly get pancreatitis?  Also I would appreciate any
information on Pancreatitis.
 
Thanks...
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
From: rkaplan@netcom.com (Richard Kaplan)
Subject: Re: Asthma, adult onset
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 03:40:58 GMT

In article <1h7qpuINNk5q@grapevine.EBay.Sun.COM>
 greg@antizen.EBay.Sun.COM writes:

>As a hopeful future PA, I'm absolutely an advocate of Western medicine's
>modern emergency care. I do hold serious doubts as to the effectiveness
>of Western med. in terms of long-term health and healing. It's a shame
>that the AMA has taken such an unreasonable stand against alternative
>medicine despite years, even centuries of proven effectiveness.

What proof?

There is no doubt that Western medicine has much 
improvement to do in terms of research methodology
and organization of its medical literature.  However,
the clear and proud distinction of Western medicine is 
that its methods are under constant revision/improvement
due to a continual burdern of proof based upon public
scrutiny of published objective scientific data subject
to peer review -- something which, almost by definition,
alternative medicine does not do.


For an excellent discussion of this, see "A Critique of the 
Rationale for Cancer Treatment With Coffee Enemas and 
Diet" by Saul Green, PhD in JAMA 268(22):3224-3227.  I 
will be very interested in your comments.

On the other hand, if you can reference any scientifically
sound studies of alternative therapies which you feel
are inappropriately rejected by traditional medicine,
please provide appropriate references to the "proof."
No anecdotal reports or testimonials, please.  
-- 
Richard Kaplan M.D.           Medical Software Exchange BBS
806 2nd St. SW # 104          (507) 281-1989 14,400 HST
Rochester, MN  55902          (507) 281-1689 Voice
PP-ASEL-IA     N4VRB          rkaplan@mayo.edu|netcom.netcom.com
From: bochner@das.harvard.edu (Harry Bochner)
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
Subject: pennyroyal (was Re: Cold and Flu treatment- questions
Keywords: herb echinacea cold flu allergy congestion
Date: 30 Dec 92 22:11:03 GMT
Article-I.D.: das.1992Dec30.221103.803
Organization: Aiken Computation Lab, Harvard University

lwebb@sscvx1.ssc.gov (Lynn Webb [Auntie Lynn, to you]) writes:
> 1 part pennyroyal leaf          (for resp system, but also for flavor...

I've got a question on a side issue here:
My herbals say that pennyroyal can trigger miscarriage in pregnant women.
I figure that anything with that kind of effect on the (presumably?) hormonal
system is probably not something that adult women should use casually, unless
of course the hormonal effect is the desired one. I prefer to err on the side
of caution, but am I overdoing it here?

Just wondering how many people have used it without problems ...

-- 
Harry Bochner
bochner@das.harvard.edu
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
From: richter@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (C. Richter)
Subject: Re: Experience/studies on GLA/Evening Primrose Oil?
Organization: UTCS Public Access
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 13:24:12 GMT

In article <31DEC92.01070838@nerus.pfc.mit.edu> mrl@nerus.pfc.mit.edu writes:
>I was just curious if anyone out there is taking or have seen studies on the
>usefulness of GLA (fatty acid in Evening Primrose Oil.)  My holistically
>inclined MD loves to recommend it for all sorts of problems, and I wonder if it
>really works, and if so why we don't hear of it more in medical literature.  My
>wife takes it for PMS and to prevent breast cysts, but since she takes other
>supplements, it's hard to say if it helps or not.  Luckily there is a cheaper
>version of it now from Borage Oil, but I'm still curious.  Thanks.

There is an excellent review of GLA by David F. Horrobin, the man probably 
most responsible for bringing the virtues of GLA to the fore. 

Horrobin, DF 1990.  Gamma linolenic acid: An intermediate in essential fatty 
acid metabolism with potential as an ethical pharmaceutical and as a food. 
_Reviews in Contemporary Pharmacotherapy_ 1:1-45.


-- 
Conrad Richter                     richter@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca
Richters Herbs                     71550.3411@compuserve.com
Goodwood, ON L0C 1AO Canada        Tel 416-640-6677 / Fax 416-640-6641
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
From: sdb@ssr.com (Scott Ballantyne)
Subject: Re: Bates method (natural vision improvement)
Organization: ScotSoft Research
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1992 16:44:23 GMT

In article <1h7vu4INNfem@flop.ENGR.ORST.EDU> shreeved@ece.orst.edu (David Shreeve) writes:

       "The Art of Seeing" by Aldous Huxley
	---Yes!, this is the same Aldous Huxley of Brave New World fame
	   who did a good deal to popularize the Bates method in the 40s.
	   I guess he was near blind until he discovered Bates.

Huxley was not helped by the Bates method - he ended up nearly blind.

Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
From: bsimon@elvis.stsci.edu (Bernie Simon)
Subject: Re: homeopathy
Organization: None. This saves me from writing a disclaimer.
	<BSIMON.92Dec23071932@elvis.stsci.edu>
	<1992Dec23.171758.3859@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 19:12:54 GMT

In article <1992Dec23.171758.3859@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>
lfoard@Turing.ORG (Lawrence C. Foard) writes:

   >If you read my first post, you would have seen that I listed several
   >double blind studies which show the effectiveness of homeopathic
   >medicines. Can you cite some studies which show that homeopathic
   >medicines do not work any better than placebos?

   Yes. Its called avagodro's (sp?) number :-)

Saying the homeopathy can't work because it contradicts currently
accepted theory doesn't seem a scientific attitude to me. In fact, it
reminds me of the clerics who refused to look through Galileo's
telescope at the moons of Jupiter because they "knew" all heavenly
bodies revolved around the Earth. The scientific way to proceed is to
conduct clinical trials and see if homeopathy (or accupuncture, or
some other system of alternative medicine) works. Fortunately, the NIH
has recently allocated $9 million to conduct tests of alternative
medicine. So we will have some hard evidence on which to base our
opinions. 

--
Bernie Simon	(bsimon@stsci.edu)		ad astra per aspera

Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative