HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: tbloom@ub.d.umn.edu (Tom Bloom)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Pantheism (was: Explanation of Heresies)
Date: 11 Apr 92 06:32:57 GMT
Organization: University of Minnesota, Duluth. Information Services.

In article <Apr.5.01.49.32.1992.4877@dartagnan.rutgers.edu> rpitts@emperor.gatech.edu (Richard Pitts) writes:
>In article <Apr.3.03.13.52.1992.9452@dartagnan.rutgers.edu> MVS104@psuvm.psu.edu writes:
>>In article <Apr.2.00.23.14.1992.8611@dartagnan.rutgers.edu>, west@esd.dl.nec.com
>
[ lots of stuff deleted ]

>creation more than the Creator, who is blessed forever.)  This is very 
>similar to pantheism, where all is god.  And if all is god, how can one 
            ^^^^^^^^^        ^^^^^^^^^^
>god (man) have authority over another god (animal, plant, etc.)?

Your definition of pantheism is close, but not quite correct.  Yes, pantheism
states that all things are god, but the god is of a different sort than the
Christian God (at least the pantheism I follow).  God is present in all
things, as a divine interaction.  One doesn't have authority over other
things.  One respects the divinity all around yourself and conducts yourself
accordingly.

Not really a big deal, but I saw what you said and felt that it needed
clarification.
>
>Sincerely,
>Richard Pitts
>-- 
>rpitts@cerl.gatech.edu       |    
>Atlanta, GA                --|-- 
>                        -|-  |  -|-
>                         |   |   |

Jeff Schmidt
tbloom@ub.d.umn.edu
From: mib@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Michael I Bushnell)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: no title given
Date: 7 Apr 92 02:40:50 GMT
Organization: Free Software Foundation, Cambridge, MA

In article <Apr.5.03.47.06.1992.7870@dartagnan.rutgers.edu> amanda@visix.com (Amanda Walker) writes:

   This is not in the Torah, but I believe that it's in the Midrash.
   The text itself is called something like "The war of the Sons of
   Light and the Sons of Darkness."  It's referred to in Revelation,
   as well as in Judaic mystical literature.  If no one else can
   provide a more exact reference, I can probably dig it up.

   ["The war of the Sons of Light and the Sons of Darkness" sounds like
   one of the books from Qumran, or something Persian.  --clh]

It's one of the Dead Sea Scrolls from Qumram.  The title is given by
the editors, not the original, but is fairly descriptive.  The text is
an eschatological story, about the last day, not about any fall of
angels prior to the creation of the earth.

--
Michael Innis Bushnell	  | This is a virulent meme.  Whether or not you place
Email: mib@gnu.ai.mit.edu | this into your signature file is irrelevant.  You
Phone: (617) 625-4518	  | have already participated in its further trans-
			  | mission, and will doubtless continue to do so.
From: mib@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Michael I Bushnell)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: End times near?
Date: 10 Apr 92 02:57:20 GMT
Organization: Free Software Foundation, Cambridge, MA

In article <Apr.9.04.02.08.1992.16634@dartagnan.rutgers.edu> bresson@cbnewse.att.com writes:

   Although we do not know the time or the hour I would take it to be
   SOON : we are seeing things in our day and age that are a direct
   fulfillment of Biblical prophecies. From the fig tree take a lesson,
   for example, a literal state of Israel is highly significent.
   Knowledge of events happening around us ought to quicken us in our 
   walk with Christ, and to make the most of our time for the days are 
   evil: it is also a call for endurance.

Perhaps this is a new idea, but I hope not.  Why not see what Jesus
said on the subject of trying to figure out when the Day of the Lord
will come?

``But about that day and hour no one knows, neither the angels of
heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father....  Keep awake, therefore,
for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming.  But understand
this: if the owner of the house had known in what part of the night
the thief was coming, he would have stayed awake and would not have
let his house be broken into.  Therefore you also must be ready, for
the Son of Man is coming at an unexpected hour.... Keep awake,
therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour.''
		(Matthew 24:36, 42-44, 25:13)

If the Son of Man is coming at an unexpected hour, then why are you so
sure that we should expect it?  Be ready, watch, but always confess
ignorance.  We know neither the day nor the hour: in other words, not
only are we ignorant of the exact time, but we are also ignorant of
the general time.  


--
Michael Innis Bushnell	  | This is a virulent meme.  Whether or not you place
Email: mib@gnu.ai.mit.edu | this into your signature file is irrelevant.  You
Phone: (617) 625-4518	  | have already participated in its further trans-
			  | mission, and will doubtless continue to do so.
From: carlson@ab00.larc.nasa.gov (Ann Carlson)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Billy Graham and Catholics etc
Date: 7 Apr 92 02:47:01 GMT
Organization: NASA Langley Research Center, Hampton, VA  USA

In article <Apr.5.03.56.57.1992.8415@dartagnan.rutgers.edu>, ajackson@csr.uvic.ca (Ann  Jackson) writes:
|> In article <Apr.2.00.43.43.1992.8878@dartagnan.rutgers.edu>, our moderator writes:
|> >[I'm glad to hear that you think the crusade has had a lasting
|> >benefit.  As I'm sure you know, the Graham organization is unusual in
|> >the amount of work they put into involving local churches.  
...
|> >It's clearly a good idea, but I've always wondered how successful it
|> >actually is.  --clh]
|> 
|> A minister of my acquaintance described his experience of this just recently.
|> ...
|>  Every single person expressed
|> surprise (and typically a hint of embarassment) that a local church was calling
|> on them. They said things like "It was interesting to go, and I went up to see
|> what it was like" or "it seemed like the thing to do", but the idea that they
|> might have made a commitment or have some interest in doing something so absurd
|> as attending a church seemed to astonish them. 

Well, just to give another side to the story, we had quite a bit of success
with Graham crusades in my home area a few years back.  My church was involved
with one preaching crusade of his and also with the church follow-up work for
3 of his movies.  Of course, there are a large percentage of people who fill
out a card but change their mind by the time they get a follow-up call, but
we also had many people either join the church or return to the church as a
result of those campaigns.  They seemed to be particularly successful in 
reaching the people who were former church attendees but had drifted away for
some reason.  
-- 



************************************************      
*Ann B. Carlson (carlson@ab00.larc.nasa.gov)   *       O .
*MS 366                                        *         o  _///_ //
*NASA Langley Research Center                  *          <`)=  _<<
*Hampton, VA 23665-5225                        *             \\\  \\
*(804) 864-7050                                *
************************************************
From: davidbu@loowit.wr.tek.com (David E. Buxton)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Biblical Origins - Book list
Date: 14 Apr 92 07:16:13 GMT

A few days ago I posted a list of books supportive of the Bible
perspective as opposed to evolution.

clh protested that the topic has been a recent conflagration and
would just as soon see the flames die out for awhile.

So, rather than posting the list I'd like to offer that if you email
your request I'll email the list back to you.

I'm asking clh to email to me in posts that this posting instigates,
to email the response to me rather than posting it.

I don't care to post to alt.origins as I suspect that most folks who
would like the book list are turned off to alt.origins and don't
read the stuff posted there.

Dave (David E. Buxton)

[I think maybe Dave has a reasonable point.  A month or so ago, I
allowed something similar with abortion.  While I don't want a
detailed discussion here, I agree that going to the newsgroups may be
sort of a diffuse way of getting information for someone who doesn't
have much background in the subject.  So I think it might make sense
if a couple of people want to post bibliographies referring people to
books that they believe deal with the issue well.  While I'm not going
to allow substantive discussions of the issue, you can certainly
annotate the bibliography, and indicate what issues the books respond
to.  I will archive at least some of the postings, to help other
people who ask about these issues.  I do get questions now and then.
Also, if someone would like to prepare an FAQ for either creationism
or evolution, I'd be happy to email it to people who are interested in
the issue.  I'm not sure whether there's an official FAQ for
alt.origins or not.  --clh]
From: HOLFELTZ@LSTC2VM.stortek.com
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Father-Mother God reference
Date: 11 Apr 92 06:45:48 GMT
Organization: StorageTek SW Engineering

In previous posting by myself, there were concerns expressed that I
was stretching the scriptures.  In my humanness, I didnot include
the following:
 
The creation of man in the image and likeness of God is explained
in terms of procreation.  "A genealogy was kept of the CHILDREN of
God", it says, "And this was the book of the generations of Adam".
In continuing, it states that "God created man ... IN THE IMAGE of
HIS OWN BODY" and then gives a genealogy of Adam's sons, who are
LIKEWISE DESCRIBED as being born in the likeness and image of
Adam, WHO WAS THE SON OF GOD. PERIOD.
 
While prtraying God in such literally physical and human terms,
you cnannot say that we look like God without saying at the same
time He looks like us.  And if God looks like us, you cannot
escape the conclusion, that there must be both male and female
Gods, For that is precisely what human being are.  It is only natural
then, that the designation of "God the Father" would bring
to mind the question of "God our Heavenly Mother" and that they
people this earth with their own offspring.
 
The world did nott always have a Father God who stood alone without
His Mate.  At the beginning of time, there was a better day, a time
when both the Father and Mother stood side by side.
 
If we want to learn about our Mother in Heaven and Her absence
in religion, we must go back to the source of our cultural
beginnings--that is where we will find our answer--buried in
our sacred history.
 
Our first hurdle is our traditions.  They have only the power
of time, not necessarily truth, on their side.  For over a
thousand years, the orthodox religion has denied that God
has a body, let alone that God was both male and female
(see Ralph Patai's  THE HEBREW GODDESS p 7-8).
 
As an un-orthodox thinker, it is relatively plain to me that
both the Jewish and Christian orthodox world believe
in monotheism and that God can only be understood in abstract
terms--this is in contract to what I precieve the Bible to
teach--it teaches of Anthropomorphic Polytheism or one might
say Theomorphic Polytheism (John 17:1-2,4-6,9-10,20-24,26) and
that He might be known and understood.
 
[To Be Continued]
 
A Poor Wayfaring Stranger in a Strange Land,
 
 +-----------------------------------------------------+
 | Roger Holfeltz   -  The truth can be made up,       |
 |                     if you know how                 |
 |                                                     |
 |  My mind IS a terrible, terrible thing              |
 +-----------------------------------------------------+
 | Disclaimer: Not my employer's opinion; probably     |
 |             not your's either!                      |
 +-----------------------------------------------------+
From: sylvia+@cs.cmu.edu (Sylvia Berry)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Where did the story of Satan's fall, etc., come from?
Date: 10 Apr 92 03:33:35 GMT
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon

In article <Apr.2.01.07.52.1992.9189@dartagnan.rutgers.edu> davies@owlnet.rice.edu (Stephen Clark Davies) writes:
>
>	
>	I remember reading stuff like this in Milton's Paradise Lost.  I've
>no idea if this was the original story, though.  I don't have any basis for
>thinking that Milton's work was definitely inspired (ie., it's not in the
>Bible), but he did CLAIM that it was from a "muse" (I'm not even sure what
>that is!) that revealed God's word to him, I believe.  That is, I think Milton
>*thought* he was a prophet in the same sense that Paul believed himself to
>be.
>
>	For what it's worth.
>
>-- 
>+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
>|             Stephen "Mouse" Davies  --  davies@owlnet.rice.edu              |
>| Rice University:  The Best College Buy in America!  -- Money Magazine, 1991 |
>+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
This is my first time posting to soc.religion.christian. I was reading 
Revelation, and found the reference I think we are looking for. You have to 
read from REV 12:7-9 and it talks about a fight between Michael and his angels
and the dragon and his angels. Verse  12:9 says "And the great dragon was cast
out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole
world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

I just happened to come across it yesterday during lunch. I hope it helps.
The bible I found it in is a Holy Bible, processed by the Gideons International
I don't know if that makes some kind of difference.

A new soldier.
Syl

[As far as I know, the Gideons distribute standard translations without
modifying them.  I believe they distribute several different ones.  --clh]
From: kvk@questor.sw.stratus.com (Ken Koellner)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: What can Catholics it on Good Friday?
Date: 9 Apr 92 08:29:25 GMT
Organization: Stratus Computer, Software Engineering

Catholics arene't supposed to eat meat on Good Friday.

What is considered meat?

Beef, lamb, pork, etc are all meat.
Fish isn't considered meat right?

Is poultry (chicken, turkey) considered meat?

Please respond via email to kvk@sw.stratus.com.

Thanx,
-- 
Prohibition goes beyond the bounds of reason in that it attempts to control
a man's appetite by legislation and makes crimes out of things that are not
crimes. A prohibition law strikes a blow at the very principles upon which our
government was founded. - Abraham Lincoln
From: vancleef@nas.nasa.gov (Robert E. Van Cleef)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: re:Dislike of Christians
Date: 11 Apr 92 06:20:22 GMT
Reply-To: vancleef@nas.nasa.gov (Robert E. Van Cleef)
Organization: NASA/Ames Research Center

In article <Apr.8.04.44.30.1992.28558@dumas.rutgers.edu>, 
	jayne@mma.beltrix.guild.org (Jayne Kulikauskas) writes:
|> I have been learning that there is some good in humanism, communism, and 
|> every religion I've ever heard of.  I think that Christians should look 
|> for what is good, pure and true in other beliefs and recognize it as 
|> coming from God. We will be building bridges to others instead of making 
|> ourselves disliked.  We might even learn something.

  The Blessings of our Lord be upon you!
  To paraphrase our master:
	  "Today you are near to the Kingdom of Heaven."

You have clearly stated what I believe the Lord has been trying to
teach His people. (Or at least teach me <grin...>) On another network,
I've learned that the Baha'i believe that all religions that have love
and understanding as their basis began with divine revelation.  (They
recognize that revelation may have been "lost" along the way)

We, as Christians, need to look for the Hand of God in all creation,
and we need to look for the Spirit of Jesus in every person. Too 
many Christians spend their time worrying about doctrine, instead
of people. Jesus did not say "they will know you by your teachings."

Bob
-- 
><>  ><>  ><>  ><>  ><>  ><>  ><>  ><>  ><>  ><>  ><>  ><>  ><>  ><>  ><>
Bob Van Cleef 					    vancleef@nas.nasa.gov
NASA Ames Research Center			   	   (415) 604-4366
         Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty!
From: stevenst@iaserv.b1.ingr.com (Todd Stevens)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Christian and Non-Christian
Date: 7 Apr 92 03:09:20 GMT

>I had a question on 2 Corinthians 6.  It says that Christians should not be
>yoked with unbelievers.  I am confused as I have several non-Christian friends.
>I think that in order to convert people, we need to be together with other 
>people besides Christians.  Does this passage mean that we shouldn't do non-
>Christian things with them?

I believe the key to this passage lies in 7:1, "Since we have these promises,
dear friends, let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates
body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God".

We have Jesus' own example of associating with "sinners", while still 
maintaining his "holiness".  Paul is talking about being yoked, or in bondage
to an unbeliever, not about associations or friendships.  I know this passage
is often taken to the extreme to mean any kind of relationship (i.e., business 
partners, lenders, governments, etc.), but I think it refers to any 
relationship where the Christian has enslaved, or bound his actions to those 
of an unbeliever, where anti-Christian activity from the unbeliever 
automatically confers the same activity to the Christian.  Again, it gets
back to the passage just noted.  If this relationship does not allow a
Christian to "purify him/herself from everything that contaminates body
and spirit", then it will always work at odds with the Christian's goal of
perfecting holiness.

Todd Stevens
From: ceb@dbrus.unify.com (Caroline E. Bryan)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: All the canonized Saints?
Date: 17 Apr 92 02:14:10 GMT
Organization: /usr/lib/news/organization

In article <Apr.15.03.44.32.1992.4050@dumas.rutgers.edu> glennd@starconn.com (Glenn Davis) writes:
>I am looking for a list of ALL Saints (about 400 of them) canonized by the
>Roman Catholic Church, including the date of canonization.
>I need a recent list that includes St. Agnes of Bohemia (November 12, 1989). 
>The above information comes from:
>
>	Woodward, Kenneth L.
>	Making Saints: How the Catholic Church Determines Who Becomes a
>		Saint, Who Doesn't, and Why.
>	Simon and Schuster. 1990.
>
>But this book does not have a list, and the classic books (e.g. Butler's
>"Lives of the Saints") do not have the date of canonization.

"The Book of Saints", compiled by a bunch of RC monks in Oxford, England,
lists some 10,000 saints and beatas.  It was published in 1989 or so, so St.
Agnes would probably be down as a Bl. Agnes.  I got TBoS at a Catholic book
store and found it both enjoyable and very useful (my goddaughter, an adult
convert, found a 11th century saint who matches her perfectly and whom I've
never seen in any other list (St. William of Gillonde)).  Saints who were
struck from the List during the last housecleaning some years ago are in this
book, with the reasons why they are no longer venerated (mostly because of a
complete lack of evidence that they ever existed).  It's a bit sparse on pop-
ular legend but does set down any known facts (including the date of canoni-
zation).  The 400 or so saints in the General Calendar are specified by a
"GC" before their "days", but the other 9,600 have their own days as well.
The list includes Eastern Rite and Coptic saints as well, such as St. Cyril
of Alexandria.  The book is illustrated with paintings, statues, and stained
glass representations of saints; patron saints are identified; and specific
objects associated with saints are also listed -- so if you're confronted one
day with a painting of a saint stuck all over with arrows you can look up
"arrows" and find that it's probably St. Lawrence.


Carrie		ceb@dbrus.unify.com	x6244   ------------------------------+
|   "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then there will be   |
|   peace."					-- Anon.		      |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
From: scollins@lookout (Steven Collins)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Why we suffer.
Date: 17 Apr 92 02:30:03 GMT
Organization: U S WEST Advanced Technologies

In article <Apr.15.04.22.45.1992.4483@dumas.rutgers.edu> marquada@nextwork.rose-hulman.edu (David A Marquam) writes:
>
>  Where does the Bible suggest that only those with the "proper" 
>faith can survive in heaven?  Once we are in heaven, we are there to stay.   
>There are no dangers that will cause us to fall away from Him.  The Bible  
>says that "once we have tasted of the good life, we cannot fall back."  

I don't believe you'll find this in the Bible.  If you do,
please post the scripture.

There is a scripture that says something along the following:

If once we have tasted His good word, and have been partakers of
His Holy spirit, and have known the powers of the age to come,
and then fall away, it is impossible to renew such a one in 
repentance... 

-Steve

-- 
scollins@lookout.uswest.com
From: cs132102@cs.brown.edu (Simon Park)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Billy Graham carrying message from the Pope
Date: 14 Apr 92 07:54:44 GMT
Organization: Brown Computer Science Dept.

I'm sorry I ever started this thread. I originally posted about Billy Graham
and the Pope to inform people about this interesting cooperation and get some 
reactions to it. Some of the responses have been thoughtful and provacative
yet many seem like that people were simply looking for an excuse to criticize
Catholics or non-Catholics. I know that I am not blameless for I have added 
fuel to the fire with a couple of my own follow-ups. I feel that we, as 
Christians, have a long way to go before we are the church (in the loose
sense) that Jesus would want us to be. Perhaps someone who knows better 
could give us some good news of constructive work going on in the ecumenical
front.

Simon Park

...Okay, I'm off my soapbox now. B-)
From: hudson@athena.cs.uga.edu (Paul Hudson Jr)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Christian Poverty
Date: 14 Apr 92 07:54:25 GMT
Organization: University of Georgia, Athens

In article <Apr.13.01.31.22.1992.22937@dumas.rutgers.edu> jayne@mma.beltrix.guild.org (Jayne Kulikauskas) writes:
>To me it 
>means self-denial, a quality I believe essential for Christian growth 
>and closely linked to simplicity (poverty).

I don't think poverty and simplicity are interchangable.  Poverty could
actually work against simplicity.  If one lets his cloths rot off and  never
bathes, he could draw undue attention to himself.  One who wears smelly
rags to church when he could wear something more appropriate could draw
attention to himself.  Poverty could turn into a piety contest.  Pride can
even creep into poverty.

Didn't Paul write that he knew what it was like to be without and to have
plenty?  Paul was not always without.  I think simplicity is a very important
aspect to the Christian life.  We should be careful to let pride creep into
the way we dress, or to be laisivious, or over-indulgent.  I don't think
all Chritians should always live in poverty, but I do think we need to 
fast and pray from time to time, when we start to become over-indulgent,
for example after Christmas if we have stuff ourselves full of chocolate
and eaten a lot, it may be a good idea to fast and pray to put things into
perspective.  Paul recommended a fast for married couples not only from
food when they became to controlled by their fleshly desires.

Link Hudson.