HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jdporter@vax.oxford.ac.uk
Newsgroups: alt.games.tiddlywinks
Subject: Re: Welcome to alt.games.tiddlywinks
Date: 24 Jan 93 13:18:56 GMT
Organization: Oxford University VAX 6620

In article <947WBCN@cc.swarthmore.edu>, hankins@cs.swarthmore.edu (Luke Hankins) writes:
> heading@ccint1.rsre.mod.uk (Anthony J.R. Heading) writes:
> 
>> The complete rules (which tend to be modified slightly year) run to several
>>pages and make heavy reading. I guess we should post them anyway. That'll
>>teach you...
> 	Yes!  Punish me!  Please!  
> 
> 
> 	  Seriously, I'm curious... Please post.
> 
> 		-luke
> -- 
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Luke Hankins hankins@cs.swarthmore.edu |"Le coeur a ses raisons que la raison
> for(MyAge=0;!Dead;EnjoyLife);          |   ne connait point" -Blaise Pascal
> While not (EndOfLife) do Havefun(me);  |"...stay sane inside insanity..." -RHPS

Ay yes, well do you want the American rules or the English ones?  Unfortunately
there are differences.

Anyway, I fully agree with Antony that we should post the things, just so soon
as somebody comes along willing to spend an hour or two doing so.

Julian
From: ucca61b@ucl.ac.uk (Patrick J Barrie)
Newsgroups: alt.games.tiddlywinks
Subject: Re: Life
Date: 23 Jan 93 13:00:34 GMT
Organization: Bloomsbury Computing Consortium

rct@fulcrum.co.uk (Richard Taylor) writes:

>Your move.

Oh, all right then. Yellow: bring in.
Newsgroups: alt.games.tiddlywinks
From: rwtucker@starbase.mitre.org (Richard W. Tucker)
Subject: Re: wow
Organization: The MITRE Corporation
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 03:03:04 GMT

In <C1Guou.FEw@electra.alb.gvc.com> marcg@electra.alb.gvc.com (Marc Gauthier) writes:

>wow, tiddlywinks. i haven`t played that since
>i was 5 years old (1970). can you still buy these
>games? mine was a cardboard board with a little
>red plastic dish in the middle. is there such a thing
>as championship boards? (i.e. very large boards allowing
>many people to play at once?)

The tournament game of tiddlywinks requires quality equipment, which
is hard to come by.  In the USA, Milton Bradley dominates the
commercial tiddlywinks market.  Their equipment is far from suitable
for tournament play.  Right now the only source of quality felt mats,
pots, and winks is from one of the national tiddlywinks
associations--NATwA (North American Tiddlywinks Association) or ETwA
(English Tw. A.).

If you are interested in obtaining official equipment and you reside
in the USA, contact me.

 - Rick
Newsgroups: alt.games.tiddlywinks
From: lkahn@mitre.org (Larry Kahn)
Subject: Foul shot vs out of turn
Organization: The MITRE Corporation
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 13:31:57 GMT

Let me see if I have this straight.  Dave (red) and I (blue) are playing 
Jon (green) and Alan (yellow).   Blue has just gone, then Alan plays his 
yellow.  This is out of turn, and either the shot is accepted and blue now 
goes, or else the shot goes back and green shoots.  If this had been a 
singles game, it would have been considered a foul shot, and if accepted 
then it is red to go.  (This is not what Natwa had been doing for years 
but I think the new interperetation is probably more consistent).
   Returning to the pairs game, if it was Jon's turn to shoot and Alan 
shot green instead, is this a foul shot or out of turn?  Clearly if the 
shot is not accepted, Jon then will play green, but if the shot is 
accepted, which color plays next?  
     Larry

   -----------------------------------------------------------------------
   | Larry Kahn                       |                                  |
   | The MITRE Corporation            |   BE REASONABLE. DO IT MY WAY.   |
   | lkahn@mitre.org                  |                                  |
   |---------------------------------------------------------------------|
   |  These opinions may not coincide with my employer's (not that they  |
   |  pay any attention to an insignificant lackey like me, anyhow).     |
   -----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: purvis@vax.oxford.ac.uk
Newsgroups: alt.games.tiddlywinks
Subject: Introductory leaflets / Alleghany Airlines
Date: 26 Jan 93 14:07:11 GMT
Organization: Oxford University VAX 6620

I have copies of a two-page introductory leaflet to tiddlywinks if anyone would
like me to post some to them. It's not currently on a computer file, so I might
have to actually physically, like, use the Royal Mail or something, but they
still might get there. Somewhere I also have a few copies of a 12-page
rather-less-introductory booklet. E-mail me with your actual postal address if
you'd like either.

Also, I intend to produce an updated version of "Alleghany Airlines Book Club
Presents...".  If you don't know what that was (and, let's face it, there's no
reason on earth why you ought to), it was a compilation of twisted versions of
tiddlywinks. Many of these were fairly close to the original game whereas
others were more distant (e.g., they did not all feature tiddlywinks). The
original booklet, having been produced (I think) in the late-1960's, is rather
out-of-date now. Many of the variants it features are no longer played by
anyone, and lots of new games have sprung up. I'd be interested in details of
any interesting variant on the parent game that people might want to play. I'd
also be grateful for suggestions about a title for the thing.

Finally, I forgot to give my first name in my previous message. Sorry...

Andy Purvis
Newsgroups: alt.games.tiddlywinks
From: sachs@FID.Morgan.COM (Josef Sachs)
Subject: Individual Pairs in D.C.
Organization: Morgan Stanley & Co., Fixed Income Research Dept., NYC
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1993 05:31:52 GMT

I heard from Dave Lockwood a few days ago that an Individual Pairs is being
contemplated for D.C. (suburbs, presumably) February 13 or 20.  If anyone
wants to compete, they should contact Dave.
-- 
Josef Sachs                     \     Morgan Stanley & Co., Inc.
sachs@FID.Morgan.COM             \    1251 Avenue of the Americas
Fixed Income Research Department  \   New York, NY  10020 USA
(212) 703-7031                     \
From: ucca61b@ucl.ac.uk (Patrick J Barrie)
Newsgroups: alt.games.tiddlywinks
Subject: Gosh, look what's here!
Summary: Tiddlywinks articles, debates etc.
Keywords: tiddlywinks winks
Date: 21 Jan 93 13:00:35 GMT
Organization: Bloomsbury Computing Consortium


Gosh, well, yes, this is all very impressive. Last weekend's Cambridge Open
was won by Charles "Chuck" Relle, believed at 51 to be the oldest active
winker. Tournament positions and updated world ratings are available, but
I certainly don't have them.

Anyone intending to enter the Marchant Trophy should let me know, as it's
likely to have some action in February. (That particular tournament is only
open to teams based in the U.K.).

Finally can I have a quick survey on people's views on whether to change the
current failure to free rule. I'm wholly in favour of the American system 
(freeing on the first available turn), rather than the old-fashioned British
one (freeing on the first available shot), now that the new nominated rule
has come in. This is likely to be debated at the ETwA Pairs in April (and
even Winking World before that). If you have strong views, maybe you could 
make them known.

Happy brundling,
Patrick Barrie
(ucca61b@uk.ac.ucl)
From: heading@ccint1.rsre.mod.uk (Anthony J.R. Heading)
Newsgroups: alt.games.tiddlywinks
Subject: Re: New group
Date: 26 Jan 93 18:45:23 GMT
Organization: Defence Research Agency
NNTP-Posting-Host: amigos.dra.hmg.gb

Josef Sachs writes
> In case anyone didn't see the newgroup control messages, here they are:
> ...
> Would the authors of the above messages care to introduce themselves to  
us?

Well the latter was mine. And in your great spirit of introductions,
my name is Anthony, I'm 36-28-34, and I like animals. I hope to save
the world someday. I was also president of CUTwC in 1989-1990.

The former was courtesy of Julian Porter, perhaps the greatest
Secretary ETwA has ever known. I'm sure he'll introduce himself
anyway...

> I was wondering whether the two messages were the product of  
collaboration.
> It's just a bit weird -- I don't recall ever before seeing a USENET  
newsgroup
> newgroup'ed by multiple parties.

I think the confusion is yours - there is a long-running joke
that newgroup messages should take the place of votes in the alt.
hierarchy - i.e. a group should get 100 more of them than rmgroup
messages. This is, of course, not serious, but a couple of different
starting places at least helps the chances of propagation.

> 
> I'm a bit irked to see a winks newsgroup in the alt.games hierarchy.   
Wouldn't
> alt.sport have been far superior?

Arguably. It was discussed on alt.config for a while, as most people
noted - certainly Larry and Rick from your side of the pond. There is
an argument which says that the "sport" of winks will appeal mostly to
those who are interested in games, rather than being mixed up with
a lot of sweaty neanderthals who like ranting about wrestling. But
I don't suppose anyone else feels too strongly...

You're on fairly dodgy ground with your comparisons, particularly
video-games. How would you class virtual-reality tennis? And do
snooker and pool players insist on their activity being called a
sport?

Anthony
--------------------------------
Pugwash is not a water-game.
Newsgroups: alt.games.tiddlywinks
From: aargyle@sobeco.com (a.argyle)
Subject: Re: Ancient winker says hi
Organization: Sobeco Ernst & Young
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 17:06:33 GMT

In <C1J0oC.n2v@world.std.com> ddern@world.std.com (Daniel P Dern) writes:


>Any progress on the virtual reality winks project? :-)

Yow! Where can I FTP it? But is Virtual Winks as good as real winks?

                   -yours, almost virtually, A. Argyle-

Newsgroups: alt.games.tiddlywinks
From: ag129@cus.cam.ac.uk (Alasdair Grant)
Subject: Re: Failure to free (was Gosh, look what's here!)
Organization: U of Cambridge, England
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 10:20:44 GMT

In article <SACHS.93Jan26120453@rr5.FID.Morgan.COM> sachs@FID.Morgan.COM (Josef Sachs) writes:
>>>>>> On 26 Jan 93 11:14:45 GMT, ucca61b@ucl.ac.uk (Patrick J Barrie) said:
>	ucca61b> The previous rule was physically impossible in some
>	ucca61b> circumstances and exceedingly unfair in others.
>
>I'd be interested in hearing examples of either of these cases.

Impossible: green and yellow are in a Thorpe's ring, i.e. squopping
each other. There are no blues or reds on this pile. If blue/red fails
to free (by failing to bomb the ring), it is impossible to free by
moving a blue/red off the pile, as there aren't any. At least playing
a nominated wink gives some chance of green/yellow crashing the pile.

Unfair: small red (squarely) on small green on small yellow. Blue free
and pottable. It is better for red to deliberately fail to free, as then
even if it is taken off the pile, blue gets a shot before green, rather
than red playing the difficult freeing shot and risking freeing yellow.

I don't know what used to happen if the pile was simply in a state where
moving a single free wink wouldn't have freed any of the opponent's winks
(which isn't unusual). Did sufficient winks get removed until an opponent's
wink was free? If not, did the squopping colours get another n free turns?
From: rct@fulcrum.co.uk (Richard Taylor)
Newsgroups: alt.games.tiddlywinks
Subject: Life
Date: 21 Jan 93 08:18:45 GMT
Organization: Fulcrum Communications

Your move.

Regards,
============================================================================
Richard Taylor                  DoD #981                 (rct@fulcrum.co.uk)
Deceleration Trauma - hitting the ground after jumping off Canary Wharf.
============================================================================
Fulcrum Communications Ltd., Fordrough Lane, Birmingham, B9 5LD, ENGLAND.
Newsgroups: alt.games.tiddlywinks
From: ag129@cus.cam.ac.uk (Alasdair Grant)
Subject: Re: Failure to free (was Gosh, look what's here!)
Keywords: tiddlywinks winks
Organization: U of Cambridge, England
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 15:47:17 GMT

In article <1993Jan23.132331.30889@ucl.ac.uk> ucca61b@ucl.ac.uk (Patrick J Barrie) writes:
>>Also, the English rules are ludicrous as they stand. It is perfectly
>>legal, though outrageously unsporting, to play a pile shot in such a
>>way that no wink could possibly be freed, so it's silly to prevent the
>>playing of free winks, into the pot or otherwise.
>
>This is no longer the English rules (but may still be the American). In the
>English rules the only way to prevent a wink being freed is to make a Thorpe's
>ring of all winks and that constitutes the end of the game anyway!

I meant "deliberately play the freeing shot in such a wimpy fashion that
it would not succeed".  For example:

Big red is on little green, which is on little yellow.  Blue is free
and pottable.  It is red to free.  Red thinks about percentages and
decides that there is more chance of red freeing yellow in the freeing
shot, than when the opponents play it as a nominated wink (don't ask
me why).  So red just gives the big red a little tap and fails to free.

(Of course, this is where the absence of the nominated wink rule turns
a situation that is merely subtle into one that's grossly unfair.)

p.s. in a pairs game, who gets to play the nominated wink?
Newsgroups: alt.games.tiddlywinks
From: hostne@ucunix.san.uc.edu (N. Q. Host)
Subject: group
Organization: University of Cincinnati
Distribution: alt.games.tiddlywinks
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 18:57:27 GMT



well, i thought that this group was already made.. or  was that 
alt.shrinky.dinks????
Newsgroups: alt.games.tiddlywinks
From: rwtucker@starbase.mitre.org (Richard W. Tucker)
Subject: Re: Gosh, look what's here!
Organization: The MITRE Corporation
Distribution: global
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1993 22:11:13 GMT

>In article <1993Jan21.130035.26207@ucl.ac.uk>, ucca61b@ucl.ac.uk (Patrick J Barrie) writes:
>> 
>> Happy brundling,
>> Patrick Barrie

Now let's see.  "Brundling"?  There is a rare winking term, "trundle",
meaning to shove a wink under another one (i.e., sub).  So does
"brundling" mean trundling around breakfast or brunchtime?

 - Rick Tucker  rwtucker@mitre.org
From: heading@ccint1.rsre.mod.uk (Anthony J.R. Heading)
Newsgroups: alt.games.tiddlywinks
Subject: Welcome to alt.games.tiddlywinks
Date: 22 Jan 93 15:24:25 GMT
Organization: Defence Research Agency
NNTP-Posting-Host: amigos.dra.hmg.gb

Hello, good evening, and welcome: to a new group featuring
hours of topical debate on tiddlywinks... what's more -
we're serious. Well, not that serious. Certainly we'd all break
off for a pint or ten of beer or a quick strategy-break (a winks
term for... well, I'll come to that later).

Tiddlywinks had its renaissance in the mid-50's, when the modern
game was invented at Cambridge University in England. The critical
development was that of the "squop". If you can place one of
your counters (or "winks") to at least partially cover another wink,
the lower winks is deemed "squopped", and is effectively trapped
until rescued by another of the same team. This has surprising
repercussions. While, yes, you can win by getting *all* your
winks into the bucket (or "pot"), you must make sure that you
get them all straight in, without ever missing. If you fail, the
chances are high that your last wink will be squopped by your
opponent and remain trapped for the remainder of the game.
Outnumbered 12 to 1 (to a first approximation), you are placed at
an enormous tactical disadvantage, and the opposition can easily
arrange a win for themselves. This gives the game a depth which
is quite rare in games which include both strategic and physical
elements, such as croquet and snooker.

What you may observe now is "Outraged of London" objecting
strenuously to slight inaccuracies above. The complete
rules (which tend to be modified slightly year) run to several
pages and make heavy reading. I guess we should post them
anyway. That'll teach you...

Unless you live near Cambridge, Oxford or London (England),
St. Andrews (Scotland), Boston, Washington DC or Ithaca (US),
you're not likely to be able to rush out to join your nearest
club. But if you are interested in finding out about a
remarkably good game, let us know. If you do live near one
of the above mentioned places, then email me or any of the
contributors for details.

Anthony

heading@ccint1.rsre.mod.uk (Internet)
heading@uk.mod.hermes      (Janet)
-------------------------------------------
1  2  3  4  N     6  B
  Pitt the Elder  8  
Newsgroups: alt.games.tiddlywinks
From: lkahn@mitre.org (Larry Kahn)
Subject: Individual Pairs on the 13th
Organization: The MITRE Corporation
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 17:43:40 GMT

The Individual Pairs will be at my house on Feb 13th, starting at about 10 
(Jim, are you reading this?).  So far, likely participants are Larry, 
Dave, Rick, Jim, *, Bob, Marg, and Mac.  Joe, consider yourself notified, 
looks like you read this group more often than I do.

   -----------------------------------------------------------------------
   | Larry Kahn                       |                                  |
   | The MITRE Corporation            |   BE REASONABLE. DO IT MY WAY.   |
   | lkahn@mitre.org                  |                                  |
   |---------------------------------------------------------------------|
   |  These opinions may not coincide with my employer's (not that they  |
   |  pay any attention to an insignificant lackey like me, anyhow).     |
   -----------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: alt.games.tiddlywinks
From: sachs@FID.Morgan.COM (Josef Sachs)
Subject: Re: Ancient winker says hi
Organization: Morgan Stanley & Co., Fixed Income Research Dept., NYC
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1993 05:30:38 GMT

>>>>> On Thu, 21 Jan 1993 16:00:13 GMT, wand (Mitchell Wand) said:

	wand> I'm so glad somebody thought to create
	wand> alt.games.tiddlywinks .  I played for MIT 1969-1972.
	wand> Alas, I had to miss the MIT tiddlywinks reunion last
	wand> summer, so I'll take this opportunity to say hello to
	wand> all the former winkers out there.

I don't believe I've had the privilege of meeting you, but I wanted to salute
you publicly for your pioneering work with NATwA.  If it weren't for you, many
of us might never have enjoyed this princely sport.  We are truly in your debt.
-- 
Josef Sachs                     \     Morgan Stanley & Co., Inc.
sachs@FID.Morgan.COM             \    1251 Avenue of the Americas
Fixed Income Research Department  \   New York, NY  10020 USA
(212) 703-7031                     \
Newsgroups: alt.games.tiddlywinks
From: lkahn@mitre.org (Larry Kahn)
Subject: ETWA Singles to move?
Organization: The MITRE Corporation
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 13:03:39 GMT


I heard a rumor that starting in 1994 the ETWA singles will move to 
February.  Is this likely?

   -----------------------------------------------------------------------
   | Larry Kahn                       |                                  |
   | The MITRE Corporation            |   BE REASONABLE. DO IT MY WAY.   |
   | lkahn@mitre.org                  |                                  |
   |---------------------------------------------------------------------|
   |  These opinions may not coincide with my employer's (not that they  |
   |  pay any attention to an insignificant lackey like me, anyhow).     |
   -----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: wand@dec5120z.ccs.northeastern.edu (Mitchell Wand)
Subject: Ancient winker says hi
Organization: College of Computer Science, Northeastern University
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 16:00:13 GMT

I'm so glad somebody thought to create alt.games.tiddlywinks .  I played for
MIT 1969-1972.  Alas, I had to miss the MIT tiddlywinks reunion last summer,
so I'll take this opportunity to say hello to all the former winkers out
there.

I'm looking forward to reading this group.

--Mitch 
--
Mitchell Wand
College of Computer Science, Northeastern University
360 Huntington Avenue #161CN, Boston, MA 02115     Phone: (617) 437 2072
Internet: wand@ccs.northeastern.edu                Fax:   (617) 437 5121
Newsgroups: alt.games.tiddlywinks
From: sachs@FID.Morgan.COM (Josef Sachs)
Subject: Re: Failure to free (was Gosh, look what's here!)
Organization: Morgan Stanley & Co., Fixed Income Research Dept., NYC
	<1993Jan26.111445.29216@ucl.ac.uk>
	<SACHS.93Jan26120453@rr5.FID.Morgan.COM>
	<1993Jan28.102044.26001@infodev.cam.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1993 03:57:57 GMT

>>>>> On Thu, 28 Jan 1993 10:20:44 GMT, ag129 (Alasdair Grant) said:

	ag129> Impossible: green and yellow are in a Thorpe's ring,
	ag129> i.e. squopping each other. There are no blues or reds
	ag129> on this pile. If blue/red fails to free (by failing to
	ag129> bomb the ring), it is impossible to free by moving a
	ag129> blue/red off the pile, as there aren't any. At least
	ag129> playing a nominated wink gives some chance of
	ag129> green/yellow crashing the pile.

This suggests a new rule with the potential to really add some spice to
the game: if a pair becomes squopped-out, and all of its unpotted winks
are in piles that contain no unsquopped winks, the game ends and the squopped-
out pair is awarded all seven game points.  Rather like "shooting the moon"
in Hearts, isn't it?  Ob-smilies: :^) :^) :^)

Seriously, though, you misunderstand the NATwA rule.  It doesn't prescribe
manually moving free winks only, but rather the minimum number of winks
necessary to free a wink of the squopped-out pair.  They don't have to be
free winks, nor even winks of the non-squopped-out pair.  From TROFCT79:
 "If, after its first turn following the free turns, or after its first
  opportunity to shoot if there were no free turns, the squopping team
  has failed to free an opponent's color, the opponents may choose any
  one of its winks with the fewest winks on top, and the Umpire shall
  move any winks necessary to free it."

	ag129> Unfair: small red (squarely) on small green on small
	ag129> yellow. Blue free and pottable. It is better for red to
	ag129> deliberately fail to free, as then even if it is taken
	ag129> off the pile, blue gets a shot before green, rather
	ag129> than red playing the difficult freeing shot and risking
	ag129> freeing yellow.

In this case, I would hope that green/yellow would request a red do-over,
under the scrutiny of the tournament director, who would award green/yellow
seven points in the event that red did not make an honest-effort attempt to
free.  This is a case that begs for my suggested failure-to-free rule,
namely awarding all seven game points to the squopped-out pair.

	ag129> I don't know what used to happen if the pile was simply
	ag129> in a state where moving a single free wink wouldn't have
	ag129> freed any of the opponent's winks (which isn't unusual).
	ag129> Did sufficient winks get removed until an opponent's wink
	ag129> was free?

Yes; see above.
-- 
Josef Sachs                     \     Morgan Stanley & Co., Inc.
sachs@FID.Morgan.COM             \    1251 Avenue of the Americas
Fixed Income Research Department  \   New York, NY  10020 USA
(212) 703-7031                     \
From: hankins@cs.swarthmore.edu (Luke Hankins)
Newsgroups: alt.games.tiddlywinks
Subject: Re: Welcome to alt.games.tiddlywinks
Date: 22 Jan 93 23:55:29 GMT
Organization: Swarthmore College

heading@ccint1.rsre.mod.uk (Anthony J.R. Heading) writes:

> The complete rules (which tend to be modified slightly year) run to several
>pages and make heavy reading. I guess we should post them anyway. That'll
>teach you...
	Yes!  Punish me!  Please!  


	  Seriously, I'm curious... Please post.

		-luke
-- 
______________________________________________________________________________
Luke Hankins hankins@cs.swarthmore.edu |"Le coeur a ses raisons que la raison
for(MyAge=0;!Dead;EnjoyLife);          |   ne connait point" -Blaise Pascal
While not (EndOfLife) do Havefun(me);  |"...stay sane inside insanity..." -RHPS
Newsgroups: alt.games.xtrek