HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: shimoff@umbc4.umbc.edu (Eliot Shimoff)
Subject: The Cost of Living Jewishly (was Re: O-C-R debate)
Organization: University of Maryland Baltimore Campus, Academic Computing Services
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 18:04:20 GMT

In article <dfs.711993117@ro> dfs@doe.carleton.ca (David F. Skoll) writes:

>Remember, a real Jewish education in North America is quite expensive.
>There was an article in the NYT a while ago which showed how expensive
>it is to live a "full" Jewish life in NA - ie, complete adherence to
>Kashrut, sending kids to Jewish schools and Jewish camps, belonging to
>a Shul, participating in the community, etc. - and concluded that most
>Jews can't afford it.

Sorry, but I just don't believe it.  I don't know of any Jewish
day school or yeshiva that will refuse admission to a kid whose
family simply can't afford tuition.  I don't know of any synagogue
which will refuse membership or seats to a family that can't afford
it.  (I consider going to overnight camp a luxury, and the day camps
I know of will also readily cut fees if necessary.)

Living a full Jewish life is, I must admit, expensive.  Kosher
food costs more.  Yeshiva tuition is high, and going higher. 
Tzedaka takes a big chunk of income too.  But "can't afford it?"

I won't plead poverty, but in my community (Baltimore), lots of
Jews make it, even on relatively low salaries (we're not all
MDs, lawyers, Egged bus drivers, or even college professors).
How do they manage?  No maid service.  Old clunker station wagons.
No fancy vacations.  Inexpensive housing.  Limited eating out.
Pants with shiny seats.  ...

But I simply don't believe that there are many who truly want to
be obervant Jews (O,C, or R) who can't do so because of financial
considerations.

(The Orthodox, and maybe even the serious Conservative and Reform
communities are not economically self-sufficient; institutions depend on
financial support from people who would never themselves participate,
but that's a different issue.)
-- 
Eliot Shimoff                  |    n   n   n
   shimoff@umbc3.umbc.edu      |   X + Y = Z .  Easy to prove no solutions
Ashamnu, bagadnu, gazalnu ...  |   for n greater than 2.  Darn.  Can't fit
Better luck next year!         |   it into this little .sig file.  Oh well.
From: saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (samuel.saal)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: looking for an apt in J'lem
Date: 29 Jul 92 12:32:44 GMT
Organization: NetNews Readers Anonymous

In article <4079@bimacs.BITNET> ehrlich@bimacs.BITNET (Gideon Ehrlich) writes:
>In article <1992Jul24.165949.5732@elroy.jpl.nasa.gov>
>ejk@coral.JPL.NASA.gov (Elya Kapelyan) writes:
>>In article <1992Jul24.155128.11311@nynexst.com>, schwartz@nynexst.com
>>(Steven Schwartz) writes:
>>|> In article <1992Jul24.131308.6019@cbnewsl.cb.att.com>,
>>|>saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (samuel.saal) writes:

>>|> > In article <22013@venera.isi.edu> arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens) writes:

>>|> > >Just to remove any possible doubt, Gilo is in the occupied territories.

>>|> > >Yigal Arens       USC/ISI
>       ^^^^^^^^^^        ^^^
>>|> > Isn't USC in US-occupied Mexican territory?        Sam Saal

>>|> No, Sam, it's in the European-occupied Native American territories.

>>|> Steven H. Schwartz          Expert Systems Laboratory

>>       No, both of you are wrong.  It is Human-occupied Buffalo territories.

>Do Sam, Steven and Elya have any proof that
> Yigal is NOT a Mexican, a Native American or a Buffalo ?

While I suspect a buffalo might have difficulty typing (darn thos split
hooves) thus making me pretty certain he is not of that species, I have
no such evidence for the others. I won't comment on the possibility of him
being some other, lower, form of life.
-- 
Sam Saal      homxb!saal OR saal@homxb.att.com
	Vayiftach HaShem et Peah Ha`Aton
From: mitch@novavax.UUCP (Mitch Silverman)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Anti-Orthodoxy (was Re: O-C-R debate)
Date: 30 Jul 92 19:04:29 GMT
Reply-To: mitch@novavax.nova.edu (Mitch Silverman)
Organization: Nova University, Fort Lauderdale, Florida

In article <dfs.712256069@ro> dfs@doe.carleton.ca (David F. Skoll) writes:

>So.  The best thing (IMO) is to ignore flames against Reform or
>Conservative movements, because you cannot argue with someone
>convinced he know's G-d's viewpoint.  Instead, just keep doing what
>you believe is just and right.  Don't let it get to you!  Most of the
>Orthodox Jews I know are a lot more tolerant than the few
>flame-throwers who stir up scj.

Indeed.  The Chabad Lubavitch rabbi in Sarasota, where I go to school,
is quite pleasant, and rather willing accept the existence of other
points of view--all I can ask, really.  As he puts it, we're all Jews.
The fact that I hew to a rather "progressive" view of Judaism (I'm a
Reconstructionist with humanitic tendencies) doesn't faze him--much.  I
once mentioned to him that I had been bar-mitzvahed by a female rabbi
(something I take pride in--in 1978 there were few).  His response, a
few minutes later, was to mention a _reform_ synagogue in Venice (about
30 miles south of Sarasota) which has a female assistant rabbi.  He even
offered to put me in touch with them.  He even had me to dinner at his
home--_after_ I told him I didn't believe in a supreme being.  (Of
course, he asked me (rather incredulously)  if I was serious--I don't
really think he can accept such a belief.
 
Mind you, this is a man who believes that men and women cannot daven
together (the reason that I've never attended services at the local
Chabad Lubavitch synagogue).
 
So anyway.  Rabbi Steinmetz and I disagree--unsurprising.  But we get
along rather well, all things considered.  That's what's important.
 
I'm sure that his tolerance of my radcical ideas had nothing to do
with my getting his PC clone to boot from the hard drive again (the
COMMAND.COM was trashed.)  8-)  Tzedaka?  Why not.
 
Mitchell L. Silverman
Student, New College of the University of South Florida
mitch@cfraix.cfr.usf.edu
mitch@novavax.nova.edu
From: analyst@netcom.com (David Sternlight)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: society as the basis for religion (was Re: What is Jewish religion?)
Date: 21 Jul 92 18:03:28 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)


  > Any guesses about the next trends that will move Reform?          

A robot minyan? A minyan via modem?

:-)

-- 
David Sternlight        David Sternlight Inc.        email:analyst@netcom.COM
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (samuel.saal)
Subject: Re: Travel on Tisha B'av
Organization: NetNews Readers Anonymous
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 12:55:40 GMT

In article <Brv3Fu.K3n@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca> aryk@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca
(A.J.S. Nusbacher) writes:

>At least the person in question is on a transatlantic flight!

>The worst part about travelling on Tisha ba-Av is not being able
>to smoke on North American flights!

Is smoking some sort of new way of adding commemorative affliction?
-- 
Sam Saal      homxb!saal OR saal@homxb.att.com
	Vayiftach HaShem et Peah Ha`Aton
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: er@iscp.Bellcore.COM (Elie Rosenfeld)
Subject: Re: Helping anyone?
Reply-To: er@iscp.Bellcore.COM (Elie Rosenfeld)
Organization: Bell Communications Research (Bellcore)
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 92 16:20:49 GMT

In article <1992Jul30.213341.12289@wam.umd.edu>, aap@wam.umd.edu (Alberto Adolfo Pinkas) writes:
|> However, I believe that if we want to stop another Holocaust, Israel will not
|> help us. The only thing that will help us is to fight against the roots of
|> anti-semitism and segregation. And, to do that, we cannot do it alone.
|> It is my feeling that we should stop thinking We first. We should think: All
|> together to end discrimination. All together to make a better world.

How do we fight anti-semitism and segregation?  By assimilating?  By doing
our best to eradicate all differences between Jew and Gentile?  That's been
tried already, by German Jews earlier in this century.  The Nazis didn't seem
to be interested in fine distinctions as to who was assimilated and who wasn't.

Opposing anti-semitism, without directing positive efforts towards helping
other Jews, is not enough.  It's like the old joke - "OK, I'll marry the Czar's
daughter"  "Good, now all I have to do is convince the Czar!"  We would be glad
for anti-semitism to stop - it's the anti-semites who aren't in a hurry.

Jew hatred has been around since the time of Pharoah and Moses.  It will
probably never go away.  If we don't support one another - by viewing Jewish
causes as our primary responsibilities, by making sure that Jews will never
again be without a homeland of their own to go to - who, then will support us?
-- 
Elie Rosenfeld      |  "Ronald Reagan??  The ACTOR??
Bellcore            |   Then who's *Vice* President - Jerry Lewis?!"
Piscataway, N.J.    |  "Marty, he's in a '46 Ford, we're in a Delorean;
(908) 699-8800      |   he'd rip through us like we were tinfoil!"
From: dic5340@hertz.njit.edu (David Charlap)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: What is Jewish religion? (long...)
Date: 22 Jul 92 17:57:27 GMT
Organization: New Jersey Institute of Technology, Newark, N.J.

In article <1992Jul22.031658.8291@access.usask.ca> choy@skorpio.usask.ca (I am a terminator.) writes:

>Why must a Jew practice Jewish principles? You wouldn't demand a person
>born in a tribe of cannibals to practice cannibal principles would you?

If he wants to consider himself a cannibal, he certainly must practice
cannibalism, mustn't he?  

If a person denies the existance of Jesus, he really can't call
himself a Christian, can he?

There are certain things at the core of every movement.  One can not
deny them and still be one with the movement.


-- 
   |)  David Charlap           "I don't even represent myself
  /|_  dic5340@hertz.njit.edu   sometimes so NJIT is right out!.
 ((|,)
  ~|~  Hi! I am a .signature virus, copy me into your .signature file.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: lerner@cs.columbia.edu (Michah Lerner)
Subject: Re: What is Jewish religion? (long...)
Organization: Columbia University Department of Computer Science
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 18:52:03 GMT

>>   Judaism is like a geometry. I believe that there are various axioms that
>>   are the basis, for example:

     Judaism is nothing like geometry.  The Torah is given by HaShem.  Every 
     letter and crown in it is absolute truth,  and we have the mission to
     understand and practice it.   On the other hand, geometric axioms are
     formed by man to express our observations about the world,  and may be
     found incorrect.  Maybe the sum of the angles in a triangle is NOT 180.
     Perhaps parallel lines DO intersect.  This is precisely why mathematics
     is such a useful method for understanding the world model;  we can 
     define the axioms and see what devlops. 
--
/M
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (samuel.saal)
Subject: Re: Why I gave up on my People (was Re: Another Holocaust)
Organization: NetNews Readers Anonymous
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 12:11:08 GMT

In article <+2nm80#.madhaus@netcom.com> madhaus@netcom.com (Maddi
Hausmann) writes:

>Interesting range of responses.  Maybe the word I meant to use
>is "predictable."  The usual close-minded "the whole world is
>out to get us" band of hate-mongers, and a few more enlightened
>souls, so it looks like a mix of 50/50.

Thanks for improving my vocabulary.  Until I read this I didn't know that
the opposite of "enlightened soul" was "close-minded 'the whole world is
out to get us' band of hate-monger."
-- 
Sam Saal      homxb!saal OR saal@homxb.att.com
	Vayiftach HaShem et Peah Ha`Aton
From: rdtst+@pitt.edu (Richard D. Thorne)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: O-C-R debate
Date: 27 Jul 92 20:22:34 GMT
Organization: University of Pittsburgh

| Seriously, you expect 50% of a Jewish community to send their kids to
| a Jewish day school?  When free education is available in the public
| system?  For me, it's a matter of economics, and to a certain extent,
| principle.  I would hesitate to send my kids (if and when I have any)
| to a Jewish day school because I want them to have contact with other
| people of different races and religions.
| 
| --
|                      |         | "Step up and shake the hand
| David F. Skoll       | ||||||| |  Of someone you can't stand,
| |_ _ _  __   __ _ __ |  \\V//  |  You can tolerate him if you try..."
|  / |  | |_|   | |  | |  __|__  |  -- Tom Lehrer, "National Brotherhood Week"
| _____|________________________________________________________________________
| 
 
       It's hard to arrange exposure to different races and religions and
     only limit it to exposure (as opposed to immersion).  Children will
     meet other people from outside the Jewish community as a
     matter of course.  My children go to mini-day camps during the
     summer (sponsored by the zoo, local museums etc.), but they
     attend a Jewish day school.  True it is expensive, but considering
     what the parents of my peers (who are from O families) had to
     sacrifice it is a trivial inconvenience.  Jews in this country are
     fortunate that they live in such a easy country.  The best way to
     show our thanks is to utilize our opportunities to raise Jewish
     children to its fullest extent.
 
              Richard Thorne rdt@med.pitt.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: boaz@concerto.lcs.mit.edu (Boaz Ben-Zvi)
Subject: Re: What is Jewish religion? (long...)
Reply-To: boaz@lcs.mit.edu
Organization: Laboratory for Computer Science, MIT
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 18:24:00 GMT

In article <1992Jul28.123835.26959@tudorct.com>, shdan@tudorct.com (Dan Shimoff) writes:
|> How do mohels get their first gigs?  I had heard that they practice on
|> stillborns, but even so, a real live kicking baby is probably a different
|> experience.
|> 
|> Has anybody ever been told when arranging for a mohel "Uh.  I'm new to
|> this so you get a special rate."?  Or something similar?. 

My kids mohel (I did the actual cut, but he arranged everything) told me
that he studied mohalut (he's actually a hazan) in Jerusalem, and got his
first practices on Arab kids in Jerusalem and also accompanied another mohel
to some briths in Israel. I guess that the other mohel alleviated any worries
by introducing my guy as a "mohel from AMERICA !!" :-)

-- Boaz

===============================================================================
  _              _            __         __ ___  _ _   __ ___    ____      ___
 /_) _  _  __   /_) _   __ __ _/    o     |   |   \| __ |   |     /    \ |   |
/__)(_)(_|__/  /__)(_'_/ /   /__\/_(        __|_ __\    | __|_     \  __\| __|_
          __)                                           |                      
===============================================================================
 Boaz Ben-Zvi <boaz@lcs.mit.edu>     MIT Addr: NE43-526   Tel: (617) 253-6212 
===============================================================================
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: eggertj@moses.atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert x6127 g41)
Subject: Re: Anti-Orthodoxy (was Re: O-C-R debate)
Reply-To: eggertj@atc.ll.mit.edu
Organization: MIT Lincoln Lab - Group 41
	<	<1992Jul25.232940.13047@wam.umd.edu>>
	<	<1992Jul26.031539.16521@midway.uchicago.edu>>
	<	<1992Jul26.043801.24901@wam.umd.edu>>
	<FAIGIN.92Jul27081249@soldan.aero.org> <dfs.712256069@ro>
	<3982@novavax.UUCP>
Date: 30 Jul 92 23:40:06

In article <3982@novavax.UUCP> mitch@novavax.UUCP (Mitch Silverman) writes:
>   The fact that I hew to a rather "progressive" view of Judaism (I'm a
>   Reconstructionist with humanitic tendencies) doesn't faze [a rabbi]--much.
>   ... He even had me to dinner at his
>   home--_after_ I told him I didn't believe in a supreme being.  (Of
>   course, he asked me (rather incredulously)  if I was serious--I don't
>   really think he can accept such a belief.

What brand of Judaism doesn't allow the existence of a supreme being?
--
=Jim  eggertj@atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: dfs@doe.carleton.ca (David F. Skoll)
Subject: Cannibal jokes (was Re: What is Jewish religion? (long...))
Organization: Dept. of Electronics, Carleton University
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 16:21:06 GMT

In <1992Jul23.124344.16899@cbnewsl.cb.att.com> saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com
(samuel.saal) writes:

>"I hate my mother-in-law!"
>"Add a little salt," said the second cannibal.

Did you hear about the cannibal who passed his friend in the woods?

--
                     |         | "Step up and shake the hand
David F. Skoll       | ||||||| |  Of someone you can't stand,
|_ _ _  __   __ _ __ |  \\V//  |  You can tolerate him if you try..."
 / |  | |_|   | |  | |  __|__  |  -- Tom Lehrer, "National Brotherhood Week"
_____|________________________________________________________________________
From: aparekh@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Ashish R. Parekh.)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: test
Date: 24 Jul 92 02:28:42 GMT
Distribution: soc.culture.indian
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin TX

This is a test.....
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: madhaus@netcom.com (Maddi Hausmann)
Subject: Re: Why I gave up on my People (was Re: Another Holocaust)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 92 18:05:11 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 

Interesting range of responses.  Maybe the word I meant to use
is "predictable."  The usual close-minded "the whole world is
out to get us" band of hate-mongers, and a few more enlightened
souls, so it looks like a mix of 50/50.

By the way, for those I put in the hate-monger camp, descent from
Holocaust survivors is not automatic membership to your point of
view.  My father and his family escaped in 1938.  Many of their
relatives did not.  Their Jewish relatives in the United States
refused to take the children (e.g. my dad) in 1933.  

What I learned from this is that there is no limit to the greatness
or vileness of human nature; free will is everywhere.  My father
was rescued by a non-Jew in France who helped him join the Underground.
Should I conclude from this that all Jews are selfish, since my dad's
relatives wouldn't save the kids, and that all non-Jews are wonderful,
since one endangered his own life by helping my dad?  If I used the
kind of reasoning that you hate-mongers did about the world, I would
have no choice but to conclude this.

The world is not as black and white as you see it.  And I firmly
believe that by expecting the best of people they will rise to the
challenege.  The flip side is if you expect the worst, as you do,
you will get exactly what you looked for.

My hope for you is that someday you will be capable of joining
the human community as well as the Jewish one.  But until more of
you start doing so, it's clear there isn't much of a place for
me in your community.  I prefer one of support for all rather than
attacking outsiders.  Be aware that your actions contribute to
the departure of others who have made the same decision I did.  If you don't
care about the rest of the world, at least care enough to stop your
own community from dying off.  Seriously, haven't you asked yourself
why so many American Jews leave the community, intermarry, convert,
what-have-you?  I really believe that this despicable attitude
contributes to it.  I am not asking you to ignore our history, I
am asking you to learn from it.  There is a middle ground between
complete love/forgiveness and total distrust.

-- 
Maddi Hausmann                madhaus@netcom.com
Humorist, Satirist, Tech Writer.  Take your pick.

Centigram Communications Corp, San Jose California  408/428-3553
From: ranen@huey.cs.huji.ac.il (Ranen Goren)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Mafdal and the Government
Date: 29 Jul 92 10:06:45 GMT
Organization: Mail to News Gateway at Wang Labs

In article <l68mi3INN3od@appserv.Eng.Sun.COM>, janiceg@marvin.Eng.Sun.COM (Janice Gelb) writes:
|> I was just wondering if this the first time the Mafdal has not been
|> part of the Israeli government ...
|> 
|> ********************************************************************************
|> Janice Gelb                  | (415) 336-7075
|> janiceg@marvin.eng.sun.com   | "A silly message but mine own" (not Sun's!)
|> ********************************************************************************

Well, actually there was: the United government which was formed in
1988 included only Licud, Labor and Shas.


-- 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: hillel@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (hillel.e.markowitz)
Subject: Re: Death Penalty & Jewish Law
Organization: AT&T Federal Systems
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 14:36:20 GMT

In article <1992Jul30.021338.26993@wixer.cactus.org> lazarus@wixer.cactus.org (Michael Lax) writes:
>In article <5674@nosc.NOSC.MIL> mgross@halibut.nosc.mil (Michelle K. Gross) wri
>tes:
>>Last week's Torah portion, Pinchas, which was read at synagogues all
>>over the world seems to support the death penalty for the described
>>circumstance.
>
>
>
>And what about "Thou Shalt Not Kill"?  Last time I checked, _that_ came from
>the Bible, too.  And while supporters of the death penalty can play nifty
>semantic games which somehow differentiate between the meaning of "kill" and
>"execute", both actions are the taking of human life.


The translation of "Lo Tirzach" is Do Not Murder.  THere is a
distinct difference between "murder" and "kill".  In your comment
above you neglected to mention that war, and self defense are also
the "taking of human life".  The Torah does not forbid the taking
of a life under specific circumstances.  The definition of "murder"
is the taking of human life outside the circumstances in which the
Torah requires it (such as executing a murderer or in self defense).

Note that I said requires, not allows.  Allows implies that it is
up to you for some reason to kill or not kill.  The cases in the
Torah involve a situation where you do not have the option.

_______________________________________________________________
| Hillel Markowitz        |    Im ain ani li mi li             |
| H_Markowitz@att.com     |    Veahavta Leraiecha Kamocha      |
|_________________________|____________________________________|
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: dsg@cbnewsm.cb.att.com (david.s.green)
Subject: Re: Refrigerators In "Stranger Among Us" (SPOILER)
Organization: AT&T
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 18:16:30 GMT


I heard that one of the original suggestions for the title was:

"Dances With Jews"


:-)

David S. Green
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: clmn@ellis.uchicago.edu (Bill Coleman)
Subject: 990 Tax Filing Requirement for Day Schools
Reply-To: clmn@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Department of Economics
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 21:48:03 GMT

This question is directed to anyone involved in the management of a Jewish
day school.

Most non-profit organiuzations are required to file annual information
returns to the IRS on Form 990.  Most schools must attach Schedule A to
their Form 990.  An exception to the filing requirement exists, however,
for certain religious organizations and schools affiliated with same.  It
is not clear whether day schools qualify for exemption to the filing 
requirement.

This has become an issue locally and I am trying to find out whether day 
schools elsewhere either file Form 990 or have obtained an opinion that they
are exempt.  I could really use some help.  Please respond either to s.c.j
or private e-mail.  In the latter case, confidentially is assured.  Thanks.


-- 
Bill Coleman
clmn@midway.uchicago.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish