HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: billc@housing.msstate.edu (Bill Chapman)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: That P' word again
Date: 13 Oct 92 19:48:24 GMT
Organization: Housing Department, Mississippi State University

In article <01GPQUMQFZIA000EPC@LIFE.UAMS.EDU> BKCOBB@LIFE.UAMS.EDU writes:
>Date:         Fri, 9 Oct 1992 13:42:31 -0500
>From:         BKCOBB@LIFE.UAMS.EDU

>Now the Bible is pretty explicit about the responsiblity of Christians to evange
>   lize.
>Jesus, for example, gave a direct order to the Apostles to go into the world and
>    preach
>the Gospel.
>
>This brings me to another objection that I have to TULIP calvinism.  Evangelism
>   is
>a meaningless exercise if one accepts it.  As I understand it TULIP teaches that
>
>salvation or damnation has been a "done deal" from at least as far back as the
>creation of the world.  If so then evangelism doesn't matter as God is going to
>save who he's going to save and damn who he's going to damn and all the witnessi
>   ng,
>preaching, and listening to the Gospel in the world can't do a thing about it.
>
>And if you say we do it because God demands it I will say that God, being a God
>   of logic,
>cannot demand that we do illogical things.  (I use 'cannot demand' in the sense
>   of it
>being impossible for him to do so.)

After being away from the posts for awhile, I was surprised to find this 
topic still floating in my newsreader.  Brian, the problem I have with that 
part of your post quoted above is it puts logic above obedience.  I agree 
with you, that your statement is logical, as far as it goes.  But it just 
looks at part of the evidence.  The part it omits is that God commands us to 
preach the gospel to bring about the conversion of sinners.

Now, do we put logic first, or obedience first?  If we put obedience first, 
we find that we must preach the gospel.  And then we will see that the elect 
are the ones who come to salvation by means of the preaching.  This is also 
logical:  God foreordains the means, as well as the ends.  He foreordains 
both who will come to Christ, and how they will come.  If we start and stop 
with logic, we will not obey, but if we do not obey, we have only the 
promise of John 3:36:  "He who believes in the Son has eternal life;  but he 
who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on 
him."



--
Bill Chapman <BillC@Housing.MSState.edu>   (601) 325-2042
Computing Consultant <wcc1@Msstate.bitnet> P.O. Box 1262
Dept. of Housing & Residence Life          Mississippi State, MS  39762
From: U1A9A@WVNVM.BITNET (Bernice Tennant)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Prayer Request
Date: 13 Oct 92 12:26:54 GMT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU

Mom is back in the hospital.  She is still losing blood somewhere.  They want
to do bone marrow test and colon cancer test.  Your prayers that these test
will be negative and the bleeding source will be found would be much appreci-
ated.

Your friend in Christ, Bernice
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Organization: Emory University - Atlanta, Georgia, USA
X-Acknowledge-To: <LIBSAC@EMUVM1>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Wed, 7 Oct 1992 05:12:53 EDT
From:         "SHELBY A. CROSS" <LIBSAC@EMUVM1.BITNET>
Subject:      REPLY TO PRAYER REQUEST-PHILLIP

DEAR PHILLIP!!!

Greetings in  the name of our  Lord and Savior Jesus  Christ. Just remem-
ber in Isa.  65:24 Before they call  I will answer; while  they are still
speaking I will hear.
Dear Heavenly Father,
Dear Heavenly Father - Abba Father,
We thank you and  praise you for all you have done for  us. We also thank
you for  this promise that  before Phillip even had  a request for  a job
that you had already prepared a way  for him. We now touch and agree with
Phillip in faith  that you have provided  a job for him and  that he will
also be used to  minister to others on the job.  Please give Phillip wis-
dom and knowledge to work to your  glory and honor. In Jesus name we pray
Amen.  PRAISE THE LORD!!!

Your sister in Christ,

Shelby Cross ---- Atlanta, Georgia
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Wed, 7 Oct 1992 07:37:51 EDT
From:         Bernice Tennant <U1A9A@WVNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: mail got lost - males and females

I don't believe in God as a male.  A Father yes.  THis does not mean male when
God is Spirit.  (The Father) We can not totally know God because of our
weaknesses.  His being is beyond our comprehension.  I have no problem thinking
in him as masculine or even as appearing as male, but I know that God the
Father is Spirit and God the Son has a male body and the Holy Spirit has
an un-nameable power but I see some danger in discussing the male versus female
understanding of God. Please consider that it could have  the potential to be
highly explosive and unrewarding and argumenative.  We have enough material in
the bible to discuss and learn from.  Please, let us discuss what God has given
us in scripture.  There is enough there to last beyond our lifetimes.
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Wed, 7 Oct 1992 08:04:32 CDT
From:         Jesse Carnes <NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: That P' word again
              6 Oct 1992 21:08:52 -0500 from <BKCOBB@LIFE.UAMS.EDU>

Dear Brian ;

Could you give me an exegetical rebuttal to my exegesis?
In other words, you say my modus operandi of exegeting Scripture is way
out of bounds (in that it is Calvinistic).
How so?? Show me my error in Hermeneutics ... could you please?


Jesse Carnes
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X-Delivery-Notice:  SMTP MAIL FROM does not correspond to sender.
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Tue, 13 Oct 1992 19:15:32 EDT
From:         Lon Mendelsohn <LMENDELS@CMS.CC.WAYNE.EDU>
Subject:      Churches in Pittsburgh

Folks.

I will be attending a work-related conference in Pittsburgh over the last
weekend in October.  Would anyone be able to recommend a relatively accessible
evengelical church?  I will be staying fairly close to the downtown area,
so walking or reliable bus distance would be preferred.  Thanks...

Shalom,

Lon Mendelsohn
From: LINNEA@LIBRARY.HEALTH.UFL.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: Randall Terry's brochure
Date: 15 Oct 92 15:51:35 GMT
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X-Delivery-Notice:  SMTP MAIL FROM does not correspond to sender.
Priority:     normal
X-mailer:     Pegasus Mail v2.3 (R4).

Sorry! Wish I did though.
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Thu, 8 Oct 1992 16:03:41 -0400
From:         Eric James Ewanco <ewanco@MLO.DEC.COM>
Subject:      Re: Security of salvation?

Excerpts from christia: 8-Oct-92 Re: Security of salvation? Jesse
Carnes@LSUVM.BITNE (206)

> Eric ;

> The question is not whether certain sins can be committed AT ALL, but
> rather, can REGENERATE Christians who sins were Imputed to Christ commit
> these sins, much less the "Unpardonable Sin?"

So, ok, as unregenerate people we have no free will and are unable to do
good, that is, we cannot avoid sinning.

When we are regenerated, the tables turn, and instead of having no free
will to do good, we have no free will to do bad.  We gain no free will,
we're just toggled in the other direction?

So you have this minister who brings many people to God and gives
awesome teachings and you learn to trust in him and he's a wonderful
help for your faith.  All of a sudden, ten years down the line, he
commits adultery.  Oops, gee, guess he was never regenerated, never a
Christian in the first place, right?  But _you_ thought he was
regenerated, _he_ probably thought he was regenerated -- he even ACTED
like he was regenerated (is that possible? I thought the unregenerate
could do no good?).  So you can't really know if someone is saved,
because you never know if in the future they may sin and thus prove they
were never regenerated in the first place?

By the way, can anyone tell me why I'm all of a sudden not receiving ANY
of the mail I send to Internet lists back to me, though apparently
everyone else is getting them?

Eric
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Fri, 9 Oct 1992 15:26:29 MET
From:         "(Frank Bechhaus)" <bechhaus@LUCKY.LION.DE>
Subject:      Re: IMHO?
              7, 92 11:40 pm

> I've seen IMHO used several times since I signed on. Can someone tell me
> what it means?

                      I n
		      M y
		      H umble
		      O pinion

In Christ,
Frank


       ____
 __O ()     Thy word is a lamp  |  Frank Bechhaus |
/ /\_/ \    unto my feet and a  |-----------------|
 |\     \   light unto my path. | ><> ichthys ><> |
/ /      \  Ps 119:105          |-----------------|
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
From: creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Steve Creps)
Subject: Re: Questions for the Group
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1992 18:11:43 GMT

In article <1992Oct6.185222.1@cua.edu> 78witherspoo@cua.edu writes:
>		2. What is the "cult" of the Blessed Virgin Mary?
>		   (If anyone has any historical references or other
>		    info. that would be really cool!)

   First let's make sure we understand our terminology.  Tom has
correctly used the word "cult" here.  "Cult" or "cultus" is a word
related to "culture," and is a Catholic technical term meaning a
system of devotion.  Therefore the cult of the Blessed Virgin Mary
refers to devotion to her.  Devotion is given to Mary because it is
believed that Jesus has chosen her as a channel for His Grace, and
a way to be lead to Him.  Therefore, devotion to (not worship of) Mary
is an indirect form of worship of Jesus.

   Unfortunately the word "cult" has recently taken on a connotation
usually meaning some bizarre religion.  Until recently the word never
was accompanied by any images of strangeness, such as some of the more
obvious groups one may think of when one hears the word used today.

-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
Steve Creps, Indiana University
creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu
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Original_To:  JNET%"CHRISTIA@ASUACAD"
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Fri, 9 Oct 1992 09:41:00 CST
From:         PAIGE RICE 203 <SPR4663@TAMVENUS.BITNET>
Subject:      HOWDY

HI ALL!! PROBABLY MOST OF YOU DON'T REMEMBER ME BUT I SIGNED ON IN
THE SUMMER when I had more time and then school went and started on me!!!
GROSS!!! I just wanted to add my congratulations to Ian and his wife!!
It has been neat to see all the happy messages flowing on Christia about that.
Wouldn't it be nice if it was like that all the time!! Maybe someone else should
oops! have a baby! NO, I am not volunteering (sp?) Anyway, I pray you a healthy
and happy baby! =)    In His Love,
                                 Paige
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From: DIEFENBAK@TOPAZ.UCQ.EDU.AU (Ken Diefenbach)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: Hate mail?
Date: 14 Oct 92 22:59:00 GMT
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X-Delivery-Notice:  SMTP MAIL FROM does not correspond to sender.
X-Organization: University of Central Queensland
X-Vms-To: IN%"CHRISTIA@ASUVM.INRE.ASU.EDU"

Whoa there. Someone is looking at the speck in the I(or perhaps IP) and missing
the underpinning beam. This list has provided me with more support in the 10
months or so I've been on it than I've got through my local church, which is
(and has been for a long time) doing it tough because of following various
traditions and other causes.

I don't _agree_ doctrinally or philosophically with everyone on the list. I
don't expect to. We all have different views (or perhaps emphases if that's
the plural of emphasis) on the nature of God. But we share problems and joys,
ups and downs, failings and blessings.

God is using this list, we need to pray to keep it going. I guess the
attack is an indication of the value of this list. If it wasn't helping the
lives and faith of we subscribers, Satan wouldn't care less.

I'm praying.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ken Diefenbach                      Internet "K.Diefenbach@ucq.edu.au"
Associate Director (User Services)  Phone    +61 79 309747
University Computing Services       Fax      +61 79 361361
University of Central Queensland
Rockhampton MC 4702 Australia
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: CC19@SDSUMUS.SDSTATE.EDU (Joe Moore)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Teachings of Jesus
Date: 15 Oct 92 20:18:02 GMT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU

>  instead of acting as ministers, when there is a diversion of religion
>  from the service of God to the service of the church, when a 'chosen-
>  people' attitude prevails, the socialization of religion will have
>  fossilized truth and standardized worship, and lost the basic precepts

I think I'm hearing chords of universalism here.  The bible is very
clear that we are a chosen people, a royal priesthood--II Peter 2:9
or close in the NIV--sorry I don't have my Bible handy.

We should never raise the physical, earthly church up as an
institution to be worshipped, but not all men and women are part of
the true church.  The true church is made up of people who follow
Jesus Christ as saviour and Lord.  This is a relatively small
minority of all human beings.

Joe Moore
South Dakota State University
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
From: rpgrant@vax.path.ox.ac.uk
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: evolution versus creationism
Date: 13 Oct 92 16:18:12 GMT
Organization: Oxford University Molecular Biology Data Centre
Nntp-Posting-User: rpgrant

In article <EeqfqIi_NU00QGKWEu@irenaeus.mlo.dec.com>, ewanco@MLO.DEC.COM (Eric James Ewanco) writes:
> Excerpts from christia: 12-Oct-92 Re: evolution versus creati.. Mike
> Hartley@MATHS.UWA.O (2948)
> 
>> Certainly, the fundamentals of creation science are matters of faith -
>> namely that roughly 6000yrs ago, God created the world as per Genesis.
>> This is a non-negotiable in Creation Science.
> 
I agreed with most of Eric's reply, except for one little bit....

> 5,753 years old is overwhelming.  For example, light from certain stars
> takes millions of years to get to us, and we see it.  This means that
> the star was created over a million years ago.  Some people have
> posulated that God created the light en-route so it only _appears_ to be
> a million years old; I counter that this would mean that God intended to
> deceive us, which of course God would not do.

Is this really deceit?  There is an argument which says that God made the 
rocks with the fossils in them (I cannot remember who was the originator of 
this thought) - which is along similar lines.  However, what about when 
 Jesus turned water into wine at Cana, and fed 5,000 men 
(and countless women and children) in the hills?  Here, the wine would have 
appeared to be older than a few seconds - we all know that wine takes months 
and years to mature.  The bread and the fish that miraculously appeared (if 
one believes it was really a miracle, as I do) - they too would have had the 
appearance of age.  Was this deceit?  Why could not He have created the 
Universe with a similar appearance of age, if He wanted to?  And why would God 
not deceive us, if He wanted to humble us before His power and majesty?  I 
think it was Jeremiah the prophet who said "LORD, you deceived me, and I was 
deceived".  Just a few thoughts.   
> 
> Eric

In Him, 
Richard Grant
From: gjm11@cus.cam.ac.uk (G.J. McCaughan)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: Is God Evil?
Date: 10 Oct 92 16:03:24 GMT
Organization: U of Cambridge, England

In article <MepLj1W_NU00Q6q4sf@irenaeus.mlo.dec.com> Eric James Ewanco <ewanco@MLO.DEC.COM> writes:
>Excerpts from christia: 8-Oct-92 Is God Evil? Angela Zimmerman@ULKYVM. (330)
>
>> God was angry?  Maybe I'm mistaken, but isn't anger one of the Seven
>> Deadly Sins?
>
>Not righteous anger.  Recall Jesus and the moneychangers in the Temple.
>Scripture says, "Be angry but do not sin," implying that it is possible
>to be angry without sinning.
>
>Eric

Hmm. Every time I hear this example given, I want to reply: OK, so you'r
allowed to get angry like that every single time you are as sure your angry
actions are God's will as Jesus was then.

I'm sure there is such a thing as righteous anger, and God's perfectly within
his rights in exercising it (er, I bet he's really relieved I said that (-: ),
but we need to be very very careful that we don't use that as an excuse to be
unpleasant to people (in which I include shouting at them, kiling them, trying
to deprive them of their rights, and so on) just because we happen to be
annoyed.

I'm not suggesting, by the way, that Eric was advocating anything of the sort.
But this sort of thing we need to be very careful about indeed.
-- 
Gareth McCaughan     Dept. of Pure Mathematics & Mathematical Statistics,
gjm11@cus.cam.ac.uk  Cambridge University, England.    [Research student]
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Fri, 9 Oct 1992 12:48:34 CST
From:         A16905@ITESO.BITNET
Subject:      Prayer Request - CELAM

Hi Saints,

As you may know, today Pope John Paul II is flying to Santo Domingo to
celebrate the 500th aniv. of the arrival of Columbus to our lands. But that
is not all what he will do, he will start with the jobs of the 4th CELAM
(LAtin American Episcopal Conference).

Roman Catholic Bishops from all over the continent well meet to state the
pastoral guidelines that will direct our work for Jesus and our Brothers
and Sisters next 10 years.

Obviously this is important. Please pray so that the Lord's Will shall be
followed by our leaders and we can do what God wants all time.

Thanks.

Shalom,
Memo.
From: lcrew@andromeda.rutgers.edu (Louie Crew)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: Members of Christia
Date: 15 Oct 92 20:45:15 GMT
Reply-To: <lcrew@andromeda.rutgers.edu>
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.


Of course CHRISTIA has been a venue for hate mail.   

I have had a cross burned on my lawn for the same "offenses" that have 
provoked a steady stream of hate mail here on CHRISTIA; and the cross
burning did not hurt nearly so much because the pyromaniacs had had so
little opportunity to learn a better way to register their disagreements.
On CHRISTIA, persons have advanced degrees and far more than an average 
share of the world's goods.

Perhaps the worst lie we tell children is "sticks and stones may break my 
bones, but words will never hurt me."  The truth is nearly the opposite: 
bones can mend, but persons fare much less well rebuilding self-esteem.

HATE loses its major content if we restrict it only to gutter talk.
It is hate-filled time after time to talk about one's thoughtful faith 
journey with contempt, no matter how much it may be important to disagree.
The first time you express disagreement is fair enough.  When you never 
allow a person to speak about anything without calling attention to your
disagreement about the person's identity..... that is hate of a kind with 
the hate that lights the match of a cross on the person's lawn.

Having said that, I want to say much more strongly that I absolutely oppose
any attempt to restrict hate-speech here or anywhere else.  I will gladly
give my life if need be to protect anyone's right to burn a cross on my lawn,
or anyone's right to be filled with hate on CHRISTIA or at any other venue.

The best response to a bad idea is a good idea.
The best response to unkindness is kindness.
The worst response to a bad idea is to ban it.
The worst response to unkindness is unkindness.

Rejoice and be exceedingly glad.  For so persecuted they the prophets who
were before you.  

That is absolutely true.

Please call on me if I may help in any way to protect your freedom of speech,
all speech, not just that which has met someone else's approval.

Louie/Quean Lutibelle
 

-- 
  ==========================================================================
  Louie Crew, Assoc. Prof., Academic Foundations Dept., Rutgers U./NWK 07102
  lcrew@andromeda.rutgers.edu                                   201-485-4503
                            Closets are for prayer!
From: carlson@ab24.larc.nasa.gov (Ann Carlson)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: Members of Christia
Date: 16 Oct 1992 19:23:26 GMT
Organization: NASA Langley Research Center, Hampton, VA  USA
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: ab24.larc.nasa.gov

Sorry to continue on a thread you all probably thought had died a 
natural death, but I haven't been on Christia for the past 2 or 3
weeks and have only now seen the posts about hate mail.  

The reason I haven't been around is because I was very hurt by the
general attitude of contempt I felt that several of the regular
posters had toward those who disagreed with them over the issue
of homosexuality in the Church.  

There was much that was not simply an exchange of ideas or beliefs.
Some of us tried very hard to explain how we feel, what our 
experiences have been, what reasons we have for the beliefs which
are different than some of yours.  But how many times does one 
have to see the simple statement "you are wrong" before getting
the idea that this person isn't interested in anything I have to
say, has no respect for the integrity of my beliefs, or the sincerity
of my committment to God...  

Respect and love for another person isn't compatible with an attitude
of "I am right and you are wrong, and there is no room for discussion."
It speaks to me of contempt.  I mentioned a much respected teacher and
counselor, a person I have met and who treated me with great compassion,
dignity and respect (Bishop Spong).  I saw him slandered, discounted
without just consideration, and treated as the butt of an offensive joke.
Certainly, not everyone is guilty of this.  And many of you say you have
seen nothing which you think could be called hate.  Maybe not, but 
when you've been slapped in the face just so many times it becomes a
little difficult to see where people are drawing the line.

I am not implying that I think the discussions should be censored. 
I think Christia should be an open forum.  But those of you who 
feel that Christia is so loving and accepting might do well to think
about whether you would feel the same if you were one of the Samaritans
on the net.
-- 



*************************************************      
*Dr. Ann B. Carlson (a.b.carlson@larc.nasa.gov) *       O .
*MS 366                                         *         o  _///_ //
*NASA Langley Research Center                   *          <`)=  _<<
*Hampton, VA 23681-0001                         *             \\\  \\
*************************************************



-- 



*************************************************      
*Dr. Ann B. Carlson (a.b.carlson@larc.nasa.gov) *       O .
*MS 366                                         *         o  _///_ //
*NASA Langley Research Center                   *          <`)=  _<<
*Hampton, VA 23681-0001                         *             \\\  \\
*************************************************
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