HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jerpseth@sd.cadence.com (James Jerpseth)
Subject: RE: "We are not allied with any sect or denomination" - Really?
Organization: Cadence Design Systems, San Diego Center
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 17:09:58 GMT

Oh for the nievette of 6 months, to believe deep in my heart
that I, and only I, know how the 12 steps should be re-wriiten.
To be the only one qualified to re-write a program for millions
of people in my own image and needs.

Oh, to not have to listen to silent millions that have recovered
and made my recovery possible. To be able to ignore history and
all of the AA literature that says this battle over the word
God was fought long ago and resolved. (The 12 steps, as revised
by that discussion in 1938, are what we have today.)

Oh, to be new again, and beleive the fallacy of treatment
centers and well meaning "professionals" who would tell us that
all compulsive behaviour is identical and that we can all
sit together in one large happy circle identifying not with
each others particular disease, malady or illness but with humanity
as a whole. That it is our obligation to preach the 12 steps 
to all of humanity and save everyone from everything. Say
goodbye to the traditions and do things my way, or my therapist's 
way.

Oh, to be new again, what a dream, what a nightmare, a terrible time
of arrogance and mis-directed good intentions. Thank God it over!

James
From: amigan@cup.portal.com (Mike - Medwid)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Re: Rational Recovery
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 92 17:34:57 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world

I always ask this whenever RR comes up on this newsgroup.  Would someone
care to share their personal experience of what it was like, how they
got to RR and how life is now different/better or whatever since RR?  

I've seen folks talk up "The Small Book" and trash AA..yet I've yet to
see a single RR success story posted on the net.  Who knows..maybe after
RR people get "cured" and don't need to hang out on recovery oriented
newsgroups and "pass on the message".  I've seen aruguments about
why RR makes more sense than AA, how it's less onerous etc etc.  (Yet
the process of addiction certainly has to be one of the MOST
ILLOGICAL processes known to mankind!)  

For my money, bullshit walks while experience (believable, humble stories
of the recovery process) talks.  If there's a better/faster/easier 
way toward recovery..I want to hear about it.  But I want to hear about
how it actually functioned in the life of a real person.  Not how it
might work for someone hypothetically speaking.  Theory and addiction..
yawwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwn!  

-Mike
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: porta@wam.umd.edu (David Delaney Palmer)
Subject: Re: "We are not allied with any sect or denomination" - Really?
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 18:28:50 GMT

In article <1992Dec17.151753.18673@lambda.msfc.nasa.gov> puckett@lambda.msfc.nasa.gov (Jim Puckett) writes:
>porta@wam.umd.edu (David Delaney Palmer) writes:
>
>>	There are groups of recovering Pagans that use the 12 steps, but
>>we do not recite the Lord's pray.  IMO that prayer is outwardly biased 
>>towards Christianity.
>
>Recoverying Pagans - does that mean that they are recovering from 
>Paganism?  8-)
>
>i

No, it is a group of people recovering from chemical addictions
that have the saame spiritual beleifs.  The main difference is we pray to
many Dieties rather than just one; they include male and female ones.

-- 
***************************** porta@wam.umd.edu ****************************

                     Still looking for an interesting quote.
From: weiss@leopard.cs.uidaho.edu (P. Andrew Weiss)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Carrying the message and Step 12.
Date: 15 Dec 1992 01:42:30 -0600
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

You know, when I carry the message in the way I know how,
if I've got something that works, then people will see it.


And when I do, I don't have to worry about how other people
carry the message.  I've done my part, and a newcomer who
I think has been "sucked in" by the other person who carries
the message the wrong way, the newcomer can see that I have
something.  Or he doesn't.

But he makes the choice, not me.  If he chooses wrong, he
may fall flat on his face, then come to me afterwards.
Or go to the other guy after I screwed him up.

But you know, if I bad-mouth the other guy, what's gonna happen?

New guy may fall on his face.  He gets up and looks at me,
but does Phil have an answer?  No, Phil is too busy trying
to convince people that the other guy is bad.  So he goes
back to the other guy, or finds someone else.  Meanwhile,
Phil is left with himself.  Wondering why noone else can see
that I have the "right" way to carry the message.  And that
the other guy is definately the "wrong" way.

How do I know this?  Been there.  Tried it.  Didn't work.

Took me a while to "get the hint."

Phil W (recovered alcoholic in Moscow, ID)

Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: knight@santafe.santafe.edu (Bob Knight)
Subject: Re: Rational Recovery
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 92 04:31:32 GMT
Organization: Santa Fe Institute

I dunno.  Everything I've done, seen and heard tells *me* that without
a higher power in my life, my recovery isn't quality recovery.  The
solution, for me (funny, I shared this in a meeting not more than .5
hour ago) is NOT not drinking---it's concious contact with my higher
power.  That is the purpose of the directions for recovery---the
steps, and I find that without that contact, my life spirals out of
control and I lose my serenity.

I had a *real* hard time with the God thing, too.  While I was
drinking, I viewed people who believed in God as needing a crutch.
Well, I found that I needed it, too.

My $0.02 worth...perhaps RR works for some people.  I don't think it'd
work for me, and, right now, I KNOW AA works for me.

Ciao,
Bob 

Newsgroups: alt.recovery,alt.support
From: kpscarr@leland.Stanford.EDU (Karen Pelton Scarr)
Subject: Re: New in Recovery, need words on relatioships
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 92 21:21:13 GMT

In article <1992Dec16.192810.18999@athena.cs.uga.edu> heath@athena.cs.uga.edu (Terrance Heath) writes:

>	But I'm afraid to put my sobriety at risk this early on. I'm
>also afraid I'm going to end up a lonely, little old man who wears
>tweed and spends his days walking his absurdly groomed little dog. And
>I'm only 23.
>	Now that I've ranted and raved, does anyone out there have any
>helpful hints?  C'mon folx, here a newbie in need of your experience,
>strength and hope.

If you feel strong enough, go for it.  Not because you are afraid of 
ending up old and alone, but because what else can you do?  You have to
try it--you have to find out if it's something real.  You get hurt this
way--badly, and often--but there's no other way to find your soul mate.
That's what life's about--not avoiding life, but living it--not avoiding
hurt, but diving in, and getting hurt again, if need be.  Better to have
loved and lost than never to have loved at all.

P.S.  You might even find The One!
  
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: porta@wam.umd.edu (David Delaney Palmer)
Subject: Re: "We are not allied with any sect or denomination" - Really?
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 17:36:46 GMT

	There are groups of recovering Pagans that use the 12 steps, but
we do not recite the Lord's pray.  IMO that prayer is outwardly biased 
towards Christianity.

                                         Blessed be,
                                           David

-- 
call david@cscwam,cville,wor,avw
 -  a quote here
From: ssalter@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (-=[SLS]=-)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Re: Part II Sex & Love Addiction
Date: 15 Dec 92 16:19:51 GMT
Organization: OFSA


Thank you for posting those questions...I have been looking around for
those. I guess that pretty much substantiates that I don't qualify for
S&L addictions. I didn't think I did but being an alcoholic/addict I
imagine I can addict to just about anything! :)

Steve
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: porta@wam.umd.edu (David Delaney Palmer)
Subject: Re: Rational Recovery
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1992 03:04:41 GMT

In article <92353.204115U60703@uicvm.uic.edu> U60703@uicvm.uic.edu writes:
>
>
>Hello again.....
>
>But I have read that some of you are at odds with the program because of
>the incorporations of Christian overtones/closing prayer....
>
...
>
>In the Chicago area we have groups that are called Rational Recovery....
>which claims to be a recovery system w/out the "higher power"....
	I have attended RR meetings.  I find them helpful sometimes.
I do have problems with most of its philosophy.  IMHO RR goes in the 
complete opposite of AA.  For one thing, it tries to tell the person that
Alcoholism isn't a dicease, one can be totaly cured of it, and that you
don't need support from other people.  The "Small Book", which is RR's
big book, has too much of an angry tone.  To me, the book seems to trash
AA for the sake of trashing AA.  Although the author insists he didn't,
he wrote this book to express anger about the whole concept of AA.
I have also noticed that there seems to be a lack of compation towards
people who feel they need support from others.
	There are a couple of things I like about it also.  I like the the 
concept of having normal people as role models rather than other drunks althoughrecoverd drunks can help in some ways that normals can't, but not always.
The idea of treating your addiction as a voice who talks to you, and tells
you to take a drink is helpful because you can tell this voice to leave you
alone or "fuck off",which  is extremely empowering.  I think this only works
up to a certain point though.  For someone who has been drinking for 30yrs, and
is totaly addicted physically I don't think this approach will work. 
	Just my 4cents worth.
  
>Good luck w/upcoming Holidays to us all!!!
>
>ACOA joke:"I don't need to take this abuse from you, I can just go home for
>           the holidays!"  (he he...just a joke..lighten up...God..sorry! :)


-- 
***************************** porta@wam.umd.edu ****************************

                     Still looking for an interesting quote.
From: suhre@meltami.dsd.trw.com
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Separations
Date: 16 Dec 92 22:04:29 GMT
Reply-To: suhre@meltami.dsd.trw.com ()
Distribution: alt
Organization: TRW Space & Defense
Originator: suhre@meltami.dsd.trw.com


=====Begin post for Adria=====
Juan G:
     There has been much debate on whether it is best to separte
the alt.recovery into different groups.  Some people were told to go
right ahead and do it, but the people who told them that also said
that they probably wouldn't subscribe (well, not *all* the ppl said
that).
     Personally, I don't think many would be happy with the separation
because sometimes they just want to argue and will purposely say
nasty things in response to someone just to hurt (we all have our
our bad days, after all).  Some people seriously want to convince
everyone that their way is the right way.  I don't care.  I like
seeing all of it aired openly rather than mumbled and muttered
behind closed doors or whispered into hidden ears behind cupped
hands.
     Personal opinion only.

--Adria (dog@cornellc.cit.cornell.edu)
=====End post for Adria=======
-- 
Maurice Suhre
suhre@trwrb.dsd.trw.com
From: U60703@uicvm.uic.edu
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Re: Group Exclusivity?
Date: 19 Dec 92 02:32:54 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago

In article <1gqdhdINNs7a@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>, bu979@cleveland.Freenet.Edu
(Chris C. Raber) says:
>
>Welcome Carol,
>
>My name is Chris, I only read here occasionaly since my dial in line is so    !
>slow
>
>I am a recovering AA. Recently I have developed an awareness that some of my
>"defects" have more to do with unresolved ACOA issues. So i need that kind of
>forum as well. This feels like a safe place for me.
>
>
>CCR

 Hi CCR! Thanx for welcome......and I can vouch for unresolved ACOA issues...
In my group there are a core of about 20 regulars...apx 25% have come to
ACOA because even though the AA or Al-Anon helped them....a piece of the
puzzle was missing...and they found it with us :)

I am going on my 3rd year in ACOA....it has been a great deal of help.....

I hope you find that it can help you too :)

Carole
Newsgroups: la.general
From: bnc@portia.si.macsch.com (Brian Casey)
Subject: Re: Century Freeway completion
Keywords: Streets for People
Organization: The MacNeal-Schwendler Corporation
Distribution: la
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 92 16:43:13 GMT

My memory may be a little hazy, but didn't South Pasadena's
efforts to change/kill the 710 extension start getting serious 
about the time that Beverly Hills killed the extension of the
Glendale Fwy (S.R. 2) that was going to parallel Santa Monica
Blvd.?

Brian Casey
bnc@macsch.com
From: faigin@aero.org (Daniel P. Faigin)
Newsgroups: la.general
Subject: Re: Century Freeway completion
Date: 16 Dec 92 09:34:32
Organization: The Aerospace Corporation, El Segundo, CA
Distribution: la
	<1992Dec15.230915.28509@cheshire.oxy.edu>
	<1992Dec16.164313.9619@draco.macsch.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: soldan.aero.org
In-reply-to: bnc@portia.si.macsch.com's message of Wed, 16 Dec 92 16:43:13 GMT

On Wed, 16 Dec 92 16:43:13 GMT, bnc@portia.si.macsch.com (Brian Casey) said:

> My memory may be a little hazy, but didn't South Pasadena's efforts to
> change/kill the 710 extension start getting serious about the time that
> Beverly Hills killed the extension of the Glendale Fwy (S.R. 2) that was
> going to parallel Santa Monica Blvd.?

Well, if we're going to bring history into this thing, then there are a lot
more routes that got killed. The discussion of the extension of the Rte 7
(remember, that was the number before it became Rte 710) has been going on for
a long time -- the route's been on the map books since 1956. Other routes that
were proposed, and successfully killed include the following (this is from
memory):

Rte 2: The Beverly Hills Fwy, from Rte 170 to Rte 405

Rte 64: The Whitnall Freeway, from Rte 5 along Reseda Blvd/Chase, turning 90
degrees and following Malibu Canyon over the hill to Rte 1.

Rte 1: The Pacific Coast Fwy, along PCH from Rte 101 to Rte 10.

Rte 14: (don't know name) from Rte 5 to Rte 1 along Topanga Cyn, meeting Rte 1
at Sunset.

Rte 170: From the point at which Chuenga splits off all they way down Highland
to Rte 405.

Rte 238 (this may still be built someday): Running from Rte 5 near Grapevine
across the high desert to Rte 15.

Daniel
--
[W]:The Aerospace Corp. M1/055 * POB 92957 * LA, CA 90009-2957 * 310/336-8228
[Email]:faigin@aerospace.aero.org              [Vmail]:310/336-5454 Box#13149
		    "And as they say, the rest is compost"
From: Jeff_R_Lindstrom@cup.portal.com
Newsgroups: la.general
Subject: Christmas Charity
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 92 17:12:59 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)

With the Christmas season here, we should take a moment to remember
that there are many who are not doing as well as we.  Many are
children who, even though they are being fed, have little to brighten
their lives.

The Gifts of Joy program is designed to make Christmas more enjoyable
for children and their parents.  To participate, you need only send
an unwrapped gift suitable for a child aged from 0 to 14 years.

Please remember that toys are to be unwrapped, with no violent or
dangerous toys.

There are three groups directly supporting the program.  Names, phone
numbers, and addresses are included so you can mail, deliver, or
verify the program.

  
Veronica Barrios      (213)626-1227
Gifts of Joy 
LA Mission 
PO Box 5630 
Los Angeles, CA 90055-0630
  
or deliveries at 303 East 5th Street
  
  
Also:
Anne Douglas Women's Center
310 East Winston Street
213-614-0743
  
Parking entrance @
316 East Winston Street
  
  
  
An ABC soap opera is also collecting toys for the program.
  
General Hospital
Patricia Lynn Kuhlkin    (310)557-5674 ext. at Gen. Hospital
Gifts of Joy Program
ABC
4151 Prospect Ave.
Hollywood, CA  90027
From: robinson@jetsun.Eng.Sun.COM (David Robinson)
Newsgroups: la.general
Subject: Re: 710 freeway (was Re: Century Freeway completion)
Date: 11 Dec 1992 21:58:49 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Mountain View, CA  USA
Distribution: la
NNTP-Posting-Host: jetsun

In article <1992Dec11.164623.20305@draco.macsch.com> bnc@portia.si.macsch.com (Brian Casey) writes:
>The people in El Sereno don't like this idea, and I think the L.A.
>city council passed a law a few year ago that says no city park land 
>can be used for freeway construction in order to prevent it (since some of 
>the park land in the Arroyo would be taken for the Westerly route).

Actually I believe it is a federal law that federal highway money
can't be used to build a freeway over park land.  I don't think this
was created explicitly for the 710.  Although it effectively makes
the westerly route unfeasible.

	-David
From: dhampir@gallery.UUCP (the Dhampir)
Newsgroups: la.general
Subject: 710 Freeway
Keywords: 710,Long Beach,Freeway
Date: 17 Dec 92 20:37:20
Distribution: la
Organization: Night Gallery BBS Est. 1985 - OS9 L2 StG (818) 448-8529


 I appreciate South Pasadena's presiding opinion to be as "freeway-free" as
possible. I live in Duarte, which has a small stretch of the 210 Freeway and
the very northern end of the 605 Freeway. If any more freeway went through
it, it'd be a nightmare. (Try catching the 605 from the 210 when the change-
overs are closed. You have to exit at Buena Vista or Mount Olive and re-enter
at Mount Olive. A REAL drag.)
 
 However, I'm a proponent of the 710's completion. As a person who worked in
Alhambra for three years straight, I relished the emptiness of the 605 but
utterly feared commutership on the 10 Parking Lot. I have come close to being
involved in approximately FIFTEEN accidents on the 10, as opposed to ZERO on
any other freeway. At this point, I've used the 10 as much as I've used the
605, the 210, the 57, the 134 and the 5 approximately. The 10 is a dangerous
freeway; the stretch from Santa Monica to San Bernardino features almost two
accidents per day average and is known as THE worst freeway in the WORLD. I'd
rather drive it as little as possible.
 
 For people who are travelling to or from the San Gabriel Mountains vicinity
and either eastward or westward would really appreciate the completion of the
710. No more having to camp out on the 10 Parking Lot en route to the 101, 5
or 605 Freeways and no more heavy commuting on Fremont and Fair Oaks. 

 LAY THAT SLAB!
--
John Rigali - aka "the Dhampir"        | voice (eves. & wkends.) 818-358-0229
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Grassroots Commodore 8-bit computer supporter since 1981. Author of possibly
the world's largest BBS lists for C64/C128, Amiga and CP/M computers.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Odyssey: Dhampir                       | "...and you know you've got me
StGNet: dhampir@gallery                |  going! Will you pardon me? My
UUCP: dhampir@gallery.uucp             |  feelings are showing. I'm only
Inter- gallery!dhampir@abode.ttank.com |  saying what's on my mind.
  net: john370@southland.relay.ucm.org | - Kansas, "What's on My Mind"
Newsgroups: la.general
From: bkt@blacks.jpl.nasa.gov (Barrie Trinkle)
Subject: Re: Century Freeway completion
Keywords: Streets for People
Organization: Image Analysis Systems Group, JPL
Distribution: la
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 19:39:02 GMT

strnlght@netcom.com (David Sternlight) writes:


>Jim Lester says there isn't another town like South Pasadena in
>California. This is a piece of South Pasadena propaganda designed
>to be yet another attempt to block the freeway--they're trying
>to wrap themselves in historical status.

>The facts are otherwise. I've visited South Pasadena often, and
>shop there. It's nothing special.

OK, it's nothing special, so why do you keep going there to shop?
Since you're so vocal about how obnoxious they are, why doncha just
boycott the place?
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
..nothing is so fatal to maidenly delicacy of speech as the run of 
a good library.
				Robertson Davies, _Tempest Tost_
Newsgroups: la.general
From: ostubble@agsm.ucla.edu (Otha Stubblefield III)
Subject: Re: Century Freeway completion
Distribution: la
Date: 17 Dec 92 08:09:24 PST

foucault@netcom.com (Howard Arthur Faye) writes:

>In article <FAIGIN.92Dec16093432@soldan.aero.org> faigin@aero.org (Daniel P. Faigin) writes:
>>On Wed, 16 Dec 92 16:43:13 GMT, bnc@portia.si.macsch.com (Brian Casey) said:
>It's state route 138, and it technically exists. It starts in the west
>2 miles south of Gorman on I-5 becoming Avenue I through Lancaster

...it becomes Avenue D through Lancaster, combining itself with the
14 south until Palmdale Blvd.

Newsgroups: la.general
From: lester@soldev.tti.com (jim)
Subject: Re: Century Freeway completion
Summary: SoPas is worth saving
Keywords: Streets for People
Organization: Transaction Technology Inc.
Distribution: la
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 05:16:28 GMT

In article <1992Dec9.033732.17899@netcom.com> strnlght@netcom.com (David Sternlight) writes:
>There is a desperate need for the 710 linkup. It connects Pasadena and
>other cities with Long Beach and other cities. It will alleviate
>congestion in both places, and save much gasolene. Those cities' mayors
>have been pleading for the thing for years, but a few self-serving
						   ^^^
>South Pasadenans with influential friends have been using every trick
>in the book to block it for 20 or more years.
>As for the "residential areas" they've had 20-30 years' notice of
>the route, and instead of relocating they continued to build and buy.
  Why should anyone go along with forced relocation if they love their
  home and neighborhood?  SoPas is architecturally unique in California.
>This is one of the clearest cases in the country of a few imposing
>massive costs on the many by blocking the missing link.
  Huh?  I don't know which is sillier, "imposing" or "massive costs."
  How much is this freeway extension supposed to cost, per foot?
  The more freeways you build, the more you encourage gridlock.
>What is worse, those s.o.b.'s in South Pasadena blocked off their
>streets so the traffic couldn't flow over them in the natural
>pattern caused by the missing link. That city is one of the prime
>examples in the country of a few giving the finger to the many.
  Maybe they (in SoPas) feel infringed on by "the many" and would like
  to preserve their way of life.  The city is only a few square miles,
  so such a freeway would alter the entire city's existence (IMHO).
>If everybody did it, we wouldn't have power plants, highways,
>or any other public facilities we need.
  Yea...imagine...  Maybe we'd have clean, fast trains instead.  But the
  fact is, everybody did NOT do as SoPas is doing.  Some politicians sell
  out, some citizens don't care, and others believe a freeway thru their
  town will help them (more business, jobs, easier commuting).
  Frankly, SoPas is an endangered place.  There isn't another town quite
  like it in California.  I think their right to exist far outweighs the
  "right" of commuters to have a marginally faster way (at great taxpayer
  expense) to get to work.

Jim
Jim Lester  (an employee)               Citicorp slash TTI
90405  (310)450-9111, x2209             lester@soldev.tti.com
			 "Thunder is good, thunder is impressive,
			  but it is lightning that does the work."  - M. Twain
Newsgroups: la.general