HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: stormcrow@genie.geis.COM
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Banned heraldry symbols
Date: 15 Sep 92 01:05:00 GMT
Organization: The Internet

To the Rialto, greetings.
 
After standing on the sidelines for most of the heraldry discussion,
I now feel that it's time for me to throw in my two-bits.
 
I believe that the banning of the oft-mentioned symbols is justified
due to the opinions of the general (non SCA) population.  Having
fought many people over the image of Dungeons & Dragons over the
years, I have seen what use of symbols causes misunderstanding to
most people.  The image of D&D was tarnished (destroyed) by the
symbols displayed on the covers of the books, as well as references
to demons (never mind that your characters were out to destroy
evil).  I can see the same thing happening to the SCA if anything
resembling sanction is given to pentacles.  While I (and many
members of the SCA) recognise the other connotations of them, most
people don't.
 
While I don't approve of pagans, I've learned to ignore religion
when jugding a person's character (many of my friends are athiest).
However, most people don't and I don't have to go through getting my
parents (and friends) acceptance (grudging though it is) for the SCA
like I did for AD&D.
 
 --------------------------------------------------------------------
 Scott K. Ellis                     | All opinions here are my own.
 GEnie   : StormCrow                | No one else would want them
 Internet: StormCrow@GEnie.geis.com | anyway.
 --------------------------------------------------------------------
 
From: Dave.Aronson@f120.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Dave Aronson)
Sender: Uucp@blkcat.UUCP
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Late Night Noises (was Pennsic Land Allotment)
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1992 00:28:42 -0500

I wrote:

 DA> Partying, or non-partying?"
 DA> "Partying."
 DA> "Period, or non-period?"
 DA> "Non-period."
 DA> "Fighting, or non-fighting?"
 DA> . . .
 DA>
 DA> B-)

tip@lead.aichem.arizona.edu (Tom Perigrin) replieth:

 TP> Then, you assign people a position in orthonormal  N space,  using the 
 TP> values of discrimiantors above.  This defines the location of their camp 
 TP> in N space.

 TP> we need to [...] perform
 TP> a N to 2 projection...   This can be done by using a principal component
 TP> analysis to define those two axis which will result in 
 TP> a N to 2 projection
 TP> that maintains the maximal seperation of all clusters of un-like people, 
 TP> while allowing for some interpenetration (use appropriate protection!) 
 TP> of people with similar interests.

 TP> The only small problems that I can see are;
 [...]
 TP> I think this plan has a lot to offer,  and I humbly 
 TP> await your accolades and approbations.

Ah, but most of your problems are based on an assumption that it will all be in
Real Reality.  A move to Virtual Reality will have multitudinous benefits:

 - Far more space to expand into
 - Easier "tuning out" of the 3 AM Doumbek Patrol
 - Ability to participate in the 3 AM Doumbek Patrol w/o pissing people off
 - Instant Replay if spode talk made you miss something at a bardic circle
 - Garb will last longer, and won't need to be packed as economically
 - As big a pavillion as you want - and you CAN afford a period (design) one
 - More uniform blow calibration at the battles
 - Marshalls and spectators won't have to keep at a distance from battles
 - Better weather (even if the shade of blue in the sky is a touch odd)
 - Shorter lines for the showers
 - Safer sex

With all the computer talent around this 'group, it shouldn't be TOO hard to
arrange.  Set up some sat links and even the Lochacians can easily attend, tho
that nasty half-second delay will play hob with their fighting....


Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: christer@sue.komunity.se (Christer Romson)
Subject: Using period words to refer to mundanities
X-Unparsable-Date: Mon, 7 Sep 92 16: 48 MET DST
Organization: The Internet
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1992 14:52:12 GMT

Lothar:
> I like to use words that ignore or conceal an item's modern origins,
> rather than coming up with a cutesy term that points out the fact that it
> is strange and that I am trying to hide the fact. (Ex. wagon instead of
> dragon for car, garderobe instead of portacastle).

Godfrey:
> Anyone have any other examples of this type of thing

Gate guard for troll. <Whatever a person who arranged feast for his master
was called in English in period> for autocrat. News letter editor for
chronicler. Chronicler for someone who writes chronicles rather than
historian. Children for smalls. Telephone for far speaker (telephone isn't
more period, but if i have to mention them it won't point the fact out as
much as far speaker does). Music for bard in the box. 
 ----------------------------  
  |\  | |   /|   | |\  \ | /   
  | \ | |  * |  /| | >  \|/    SCA: Lindorm Eriksson, Nordmark, Drachenw., East
  |   | |\   | / | |/    |     Mundane: Christer Romson, Stockholm, Sweden.
  |   | | \  |  /| |\    |     Email: christer@Sue.KOMunity.Se
  |   | |    | / | | \   |   
  |   | |    |   | |  \  |   
 ----------------------------

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman)
Subject: Re: Courtesy (was Re: awards recognition)
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1992 20:10:31 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

Greetings from Arval!  Corun wrote:

> If Courts of Chivalry are useless what can we as SCAdians do to promote a
> greater sense of the need for courtesy? ... I mentioned to Aryk that we
> could try awarding some small trinket on the local level, encompassing
> all groups, not simply Baronial and above, and conversely some form of
> chastisement. 

I don't think that official institutions can effectively encourage courtesy
or discourage discourtesy.  Rewards and punishments haven't made a great
deal of difference to date; I don't expect them to make much difference in
the future.  The only solution I can see is to teach by example.


Along the way Corun also wrote:

> In one case there is a ritual banishment of a knight that takes place in
> one kingdom during every coronation, but that person is still a knight
> (having been reknighted elsewhere) and  still active in the SCA. I don't
> know if that person still acts the same way that caused him to be
> unknighted in the first place and subsequently banished in perpetuity.

This is a clear violation of Corpora: A king can only banish one of his
subjects.  Since the gentle involved has not lived in that kingdom for many
years, the Crown _cannot_ banish him.  Furthermore, all banishments from
the realm (which last only one reign) must be formally justified to the
Board of Directors.  Since this is not done each reign, this is a further
violation of Corpora.  I would argue that this sort of travesty only
contributes to the problem: Rather than letting an old problem die away in
peace, this kingdom has chosen to force it to live on.  They have
institutionalized hatred.

===========================================================================
Arval Benicoeur                                       mittle@watson.ibm.com
From: Alex_Hart@mindlink.bc.ca (Alex Hart)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: safety for marshals (was: Re: Town Battle at the War)
Date: 7 Sep 92 17:27:38 GMT
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada

I personally have been marshalling tournies and wars for about 6 years now in
An Tir,and although I have been in the thick of things,the only problem(if you
can call it that) I have had is the occasion arrow hitting me instead of the
fighter it was aimed at. There have been no instances that I am aware of of any
marshall being mistaken for anything but what he\she is.Some of us wear
baldrics and some tabards,and the very junior marshal on the sides may not wear
anything,but be carrying a staff of some sort.The recognition surely must come
from the fact that marshalls are not armoured ? The staff also protects you
when coming up behind a fighter,but I always inform a fighter that I am a
marshall in such cases.
All of which is I suppose a long winded way of saying " why fix what ain't
broken ?"

Alastair The Eastern Traveller
Lions Gate,An Tir
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: PAULB@saturn.uark.EDU ("Paul A. Byers")
Subject: same sex consorts
Organization: University of Arkansas
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 15:27:10 GMT

I'm for it! It would double my chances of sitting the thrown. I've
even been told of french brothers who set the thrown togather in
period. I've even got a few 'brothers' to fight for and to fight for
me.

As far as insperation as it says in the christon bible (I'm badly
paraphrasing here.) 'no greater love hath man, than to lay down his
life for a friend.' And the christon bible is period!

I have to work on a letter to the BOD. All the fighters I talked to
this weekend though it was a good idea too. ('cept for Misterss Arial
who already has this advantage. i.e. she fight for Syr Valence or Syr
Haladar and they fight for her. Doubles her chances.)

Pavel
Calontir







Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: corun@access.digex.com (Corun MacAnndra)
Subject: Pennsic XXII Autocrat
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 14:04:57 GMT

Greetings unto the Rialto from Corun MacAnndra.

Last night I had the pleasure of dining with Lady Elaina, she who will be
War Autocrat for Pennsic XXII. We discussed the many threads that have been
occuring on the Rialto regarding Pennsic, paying the Autocrat, etc., and
she is very interested in further comments from the Rialto. She has just
gotten access to Compuserve, and will doubtless begin posting things here
herself soon. Until then, she has asked me to post her mailing address so
that she may begin compiling the many ideas that have come across here.
Therefore, she may be reached at the following address;

        Joann Peek
        608 Carroll Sq. #2W
        Elk Grove Village, IL 60007

She would be grateful of any correspondence any, on or off the Rialto, care
to send her regarding Pennsic.

In service,

Corun


-- 
===========================================================================
    Corun MacAnndra     |      But what if this hadn't been
  Dark Horde by birth   |        a rhetorical question?
    Moritu by choice    |                            C. Nelson
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 12:44:56 -0400 
From: Gretchen Miller <grm+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Same Sex Consorts

May I suggest a reason  for opposite sex consorts that has nothing to do
with  their romantic involvement or lack thereof?

Royalty are supposed to be a representitive and example for us all. 
With a same sex couple on the throne, a full half of the kingdom is left
without an example. Additionally, many people feel uncomfortable
speaking of certain things to members of the opposite sex, so having
different sex royals means that, if such matters must be broached on the
royal level, they can be discussed with the Royal of the same sex.

I'm a little disturbed by the arguments with this because I've been
seeing a lot of:

"If I actually won a tourney, I can't do what I want"

as an underlying tone ...Maybe I'm misinterpreting....Maybe I've heard
to much both personally and rumorwise of "If I win tourney, I get to do
what I want". (Like the "I shouldn't have to travel out of town to get
crowned because that would be too traumatic for me" statement that a
prospective royal was rumored to have made recently).  I'd like to see
an accompaning discussion of "What IS the role of royalty in the SCA,
and how best to fulfill that role".

toodles, margaret
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: aryk@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (A.J.S. Nusbacher)
Subject: Hired chef (was Re: Pennsic Land Allocation
Organization: University of Toronto -- Hart House
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 22:59:32 GMT

In article <1992Sep8.223357.13248@access.digex.com> corun@access.digex.com (Corun MacAnndra) writes:

>I've never heard of an SCA group hiring professional cooks. I'm not disputing
>you, I've just never heard of such a thing. To me, half the fun of being 
>in the SCA is researching a thing and doing it myself to the best of my
>ability.... 

The Canton of Rising Waters (since made a barony) in St. Catharines, Ontario,
used to routinely hire a professional chef.  The meals weren't always models
of authenticity, but 1. sometimes hardworking volunteers make unauthentic
meals, and 2. the food was always very good, and never jarringly modern.  The
bottom line for them was that nobody in the group was interested in being
chief cook.  They wanted to have an event with a feast (practically mandatory
in Ontario, at least at that time), and so they hired this guy.

>.... I think that the point here is
>not that we couldn't, but that groups in general usually don't have enough
>money to spend on doing the events they want, much less on teachers. 

Some groups pay money for a nice hall.  Some pay money for a good chef.  Some
pay money for good meat for the feast.  Everybody sets priorities.  Surely
a group could decide that some proportion of the event fee could go to bring
a teacher in.  The folks in Ottawa bring a Western knight over every couple
of years to teach figting, for instance.  Who wouldn't mind having Janet
Arnold brought over from England for a seminar?  Who wouldn't mind doing some
fundraising or paying a few bucks more for admission?

Aryk Nusbacher
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: corun@access.digex.com (Corun MacAnndra)
Subject: Re: Pennsic Land Allocation
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 22:37:21 GMT

In article <Bu9zH7.3G0@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca> aryk@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (A.J.S. Nusbacher) writes:
>Any chance of seeing an abstract of Pennsic statistics?  I would be particularly
>keen on seeing stats on kingdom allegiance.
>
>Aryk Nusbacher

One of the reasons that we've had computers the last two years is to provide
just such demographic information. I don't know what the actual policy is
for distribution, but this year's Trollocrat (and next year's Autocrat) is
coming out here this weekend. I'll ask her for you. If it's postable and
available, I'll post it here if there's enough interest. Otherwise I'll
contact you through email.

In service,

Corun


-- 
===========================================================================
    Corun MacAnndra     |      But what if this hadn't been
  Dark Horde by birth   |        a rhetorical question?
    Moritu by choice    |                            C. Nelson
From: dew@ecl.psu.edu (Dur, Aga-Khan)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Institutionalized Courtesy 
Date: 11 Sep 92 23:07:33 EDT
Organization: Orluk Oasis

Greetings from Dur!

When last we heard Arval say...
>Greetings from Arval!  Dur wrote:

>> Arval writes (and claims knowledge of law) that the ritual banning of
>> Angus is a wrongful act and institutionalizes hatred.

>If anyone would like to see the passages of Corpora which clearly state
>that the Crown can only banish its subjects, and that every banishment from
>the realm must be reviewed by the Board, I will be happy to send them to
>you.  They are unambiguous.

This particular kingdom is clearly stating that should this disenfranchised 
party return to the "jurisdiction" of the subsequent monarch that the person 
in question is not welcome (for whatever reason).  Saying (as you do) that 
this is "wrong" will only express you opinion (which you probably like to do), 
and will in no way ensure that "justice will be done".  So much for 
posturing...

>> This is no worse than what you, Arval, have been party to in the past.  

>Dur, I know you love to sound mysterious, so I won't insist that you
>justify this statement.  If you are simply reminding me that I've done dumb
>things from time to time, I'll not disagree; anyone who would claim
>otherwise of himself is a fool.  If you choose to elucidate, be my guest:
>I've apologized for my mistakes before and I expect I'll do it many more
>times.  If you prefer to pretend to the enigmatic wisdom of the Sphinx, I
>won't spoil your party.

>If, however, you suggest that by virtue of having made mistakes I am
>disbarred from recognizing the errors of others, then I will courteously
>disagree.

Me, mysterious?  

Arval, if you think that getting an award (any award) reduced the amount of 
clay in your feet, then don't jump (to conclusions).  You have been sounding 
pompous, self-righteous, and stuffy lately.  (Bertram is a proud papa, and 
therefore is excused for the moment, while Tuckass could be a mama any moment 
now...)  

As to your last comment, since when is making mistakes a virtue?  It is 
usually considered a humanizing factor for most folks, but then mistakes by 
you might be virtues...

Salam
-- 
Dale E. Walter     |Dur of Hidden Mountain          
dew@ecl.psu.edu    |Orluk Oasis on the War Road (of Aethelmarc)

"I'm the Baron!  Ya gotta loath me!"
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: schuldy@progress.COM (Mark Schuldenfrei)
Subject: Re: Pennsic prices
Organization: Progress Software Corp.
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 18:20:50 GMT

Corun wrote:
  And finally, the pre Pennsic information flyers that go out to the Knowne
  World. I don't know what the circulation of the TI is, but I'd guess they're
  close to the same.

and Hal answered:
  I rather doubt the circulation is *that* high . . .  :-)

It's a pretty large number, Hal.  The Pennsic Information book is about
the size of a regular Pikestaff, and is sent for free to every resident
of the East Kingdom and Middle Kingdom.  I think the residents of some
other groups get it too (Atlantia, Meridies?  Ellisif, you sent it, can
you comment?)

	Tibor
--
Mark Schuldenfrei (schuldy@progress.com)
Organization: Doctoral student, Industrial Administration, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 09:51:49 -0400 
From: David Schroeder <ds4p+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Baby Announcement!

Good gentles,

Siobhan (Leigh Ann Hussey  leighann@sybase.com) writes --

> Congratulations to the proud parents!  However, I am reminded now of
> Bertram and his lady (whose name I do not know).  Hai, Bertram!  That
> little one see daylight yet?

Ummm...  that _was_ our announcement.  Many thanks to all the folks
who sent us their good wishes.  Little Elizabeth Kori Guildroy Schroeder
(we're still not sure what SCA name she'll use, since the nearly one
year old daughter of BMDL's baron and baroness is also named Elizabeth --
someone suggested 'Elizabeth the Second' but that would be out of period!
Perhaps it will be just 'Kori' until she gets old enough to choose her
own name).  My lady is Eromene Aspasia of Constantinople and mother
and daughter are both doing quite well.  Even 'Dad' is hanging in there!

Our best -- Bertram (and Eromene and 'Kori')

Oh -- talking with Eromene, we've decided to use either 
      "Kori Constantinopolou"  (the Greek form) or
      "Kori of Constantinople" (the English form)
      [I may, at times, refer to her as "'Beta' of Bearington"
       (from 'Eliza-beta' -- though it would have worked better
        for a second child! ;-) ]

+-----------------------------------------------------------------------+
Bertram of Bearington                                      Dave Schroeder
Debatable Lands/AEthelmearc/East               Carnegie Mellon University
INTERNET: ds4p@andrew.cmu.edu                         412/731-3230 (Home)
+------------------------ PREME * Press On * PREME ---------------------+
      "He indulged in every excess, yes in each licentious whim..."
From: rday@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Robert E Day)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Wicca and the SCA
Date: 15 Sep 92 14:22:33 GMT
Organization: The Ohio State University

In article <1992Sep15.072650.4876@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu> carl@silver.lcs.mit.edu
(Alexander of Kiev (mka Carl Alexander)) writes:
>Tadhg writes [I'm not sure who "D" is]:
>
>> D> My original design for my arms, I will not bore you with the
>> D> blazon (if I could even remember it), centered around a rack of stags
>> D> horns and a 'plate', or full moon. It was refused for being to
>> D> blatantly 'Pagan'. I do not think I need make any more comment than
>> D> that.
>>
>> Sure you do . . . you need to tell me who "refused" it, so
>> I can explain to them How Things Are Supposed To Work.
>>
>> First, look up the registered arms of Duke Sir Talymar gan y Llwyn and
>> Duchess Eislinn the Patient, for some examples of how to register armory
>> using "pagan" symbolism.

His Grace's badge(see below) was originaly refused because it(with the 
household name) were too pagan.

>> Next, resubmit; and, if necessary, appeal. Tell 'em Tadhg sent you....

He did just that. & it passed.(thou it could have been because he was king.;))

>Tadhg is, of course, entirely correct here:  your local herald
>blew it.
[...]
>Just for reference:
>
>Eislinn the Patient (Device):  Sable, a doe at gaze guardant
>argent atop a sun Or.
>
>Talymar gan y Llwyn (Badge):  Sable, a stag's head
>couped between in pale a plate within the stag's attire and
>a crescent argent.
>
>Talymar gan y Llwyn (Device):  Sable, a stag trippant
>to sinister argent, between its antlers a bezant, in sinister
>base an increscent argent.
-- 
If the price that I must pay to obtain my *  Robert E. Day/Syr Otto von    *
freedom, is to acknowledge that the Gov-  *  Schwartzkatz, Shire Mugmort   *
ernmet was granted the power to infringe  *  Barony Middle Marches,        *
on them, then I am not free. Paul Anderson*  Middle Kingdom                *
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: vader@meryl.csd.uu.se ("]ke Eldberg")
Subject: Prince of Thieves wrongos
Organization: The Internet
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 20:25:07 GMT

Greetings from William de Corbie!

Corun MacAnndra writes:

>The Oxford English Dictionary defines fiction and fantasy thusly;

...(near-identical definitions follow)...

>They sound very similar to me.

The OED is clearly incomplete here. When speaking of literature, the
word "fiction" refers to non-documentary works in general, whereas
"fantasy" is a special genre of fiction. A book of historical fiction
is an imagined story which happens in the real historical world, whereas
a fantasy book takes place in an imaginary world created by the author,
or a world which is intentionally and openly different from our reality.

The Prince of Thieves clearly belongs to fiction, not fantasy. When
Hollywood spends millions of dollars to make a movie on a medieval
theme, it is sad to see many unnecessary and sloppy mistakes. The SCA
is an educational society; a movie like Prince of Thieves spreads
misconceptions about our period. Many people who see it will assume
that it really depicts medieval realities. It certainly is legitimate
for us to point out the more serious errors.

>Then why pick nits?

To prove that I know my nits from my nots. :-)

>Then perhaps this subject would be better discussed in a forum for films.
>I believe the subject has been exhausted here for some time.

I commented here because there was already one other long thread about
this particular film, which proves that several gentles in this forum
like to talk about it. The Costner Robin Hood is probably the most
talked-about movie in the SCA since "Monty Python & the Holy Grail".

If you think that it is wrong to discuss it here, I trust that you
intend to post a similar comment to those who are following the
"recast" thread? After all, that has bee going on much longer than
this one.

William
Organization: Computer Operations, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA