HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: uad1221@dircon.co.uk (David Lomax)
Subject: Re: Cameras on roads/motorways
Distribution: uk
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 09:48:43 GMT


But how do they work? I mean I assume they use some sort Doppler 
type effect to measure speed but I could think of a million 
(well two or three actually) of possible problems with this. 
For example is the beam narrow or wide? If it is narrow it would 
have to track the car so that you did not get spurious results
from vehicles cutting the beam at the angle etc. If it wide, 
it may take in several vehices (maybe in different lanes). What 
happens if you have a steady (bumper to bumper) stream of fast 
moving traffic? Does it believe it should be taking loads of 
photos or just give up the ghost.

Do you see what I'm getting at here? When one of these speed 
guns are operated by humans they can be selectively directed, 
ensuring no other intervening obstacles and made to track the 
vehicle pretty accurately (the human points it at the vehicle).

I'm sure these cameras have all these problems sussed, but I'm 
just interested to know how!

Anyone any ideas?
David Lomax

P.S. Believe it or not, I don't want to know all of this because 
I want to find a way of breaking the law and getting away
with it. Honest! ;-)
From: ercm20@festival.ed.ac.uk (Sam Wilson)
Newsgroups: uk.transport
Subject: Re: Let me into the asylum please!
Date: 16 Dec 92 13:23:36 GMT

mcramm@dct.ac.uk (McRamm) writes:
> Well it's finally happened - I've seen what has to be the *stupidest* use
> of road transport yet.
> 
> Travelling back to Dundee from Malvern I passed a wide HGV on the Motorway,
> nothing unusual there, except for its load. 
> 
> The damn thing was carrying a BR loco. So musch for the statement in the
> House of Clowns yesterday that the government is committed to getting
> heavy loads back onto rail. How do they hope to manage it when even BR use
> road transport to shift their loco's around?

It may not be *that* stupid.  One possibility is that it was going
somewhere (or returning from somewhere) without rail access (e.g.  a
scrap yard, though I don't know that BR commonly use any on the most
likely routes between Malvern and Dundee).  Another possibility is that
it was seriously broken.  One of the problems with the railways is the
loading gauge, i.e.  the maximum cross section things can be without
hitting bridges, platforms, signals, other trains, etc..  Locos tend to
approach the limits of the loading gauge quite closely (and it's
different on different lines!).  If a loco breaks down very badly it's
difficult to find anything small enough and strong enough to put it on
so that the ensemble can stay inside the loading gauge.  In that kind of
case, if the thing can't be fixed on site, it's conceivable they'd take
it by road. 

Sam
From: pip@muppet.bt.co.uk (Philip Rutter DNM22)
Newsgroups: uk.transport
Subject: Re: Motorway lane closures
Date: 15 Dec 92 18:01:08 GMT
Reply-To: pip@muppet.bt.co.uk
Organization: British Telecom
NNTP-Posting-Host: oliveoyl.muppet.bt.co.uk

In article 2820@lsl.co.uk, snail@lsl.co.uk () writes:
>
>Me. I sit in the outside lane at the same position as I would have on the inner
>lane. Why? To stop people (behind me) cheating the other people in the queue.
                                       ^^^^^^^^
Driving isn`t a game or a race is it ? :-)

Anyway I believe (from listening to some radio programme or other)
that this practice is actually -illegal-. Could someone either confirm
or deny this ?

Personally I have taken to staying in my current lane and filtering in 
as late as possible (say in the last 200m). This is as a result of 
seeing several cases of a single line of traffic 2 miles long backed 
up -past- the previous junction when there was free space in outside 
lanes. This merely exported the queue onto another road.
I am however quite prepared to change my behaviour for the general 
good if I see a strong argument to do so. (I haven't yet :-))

---
------------------------------------------------------------------
|        Philip Rutter,  Network Management Department           |
| BT Labs, Martlesham Heath , Ipswich, Suffolk IP5 7RE, England  |
| e-mail : pip@muppet.bt.co.uk    |    phone  : +44 473 648134   |
------------------------------------------------------------------
From: das@castle.ed.ac.uk (D Stewart)
Newsgroups: uk.transport
Subject: Re: Let me into the asylum please!
Date: 16 Dec 92 13:55:18 GMT
Organization: Edinburgh University

mcramm@dct.ac.uk (McRamm) writes:
> Well it's finally happened - I've seen what has to be the *stupidest* use
> of road transport yet.
> 
> Travelling back to Dundee from Malvern I passed a wide HGV on the Motorway,
> nothing unusual there, except for its load. 
>> 
> The damn thing was carrying a BR loco. So musch for the statement in the
> House of Clowns yesterday that the government is committed to getting
> heavy loads back onto rail. How do they hope to manage it when even BR use
> road transport to shift their loco's around?
>
It was unlikely to be BR that was shifting it. Many loco's/coaches etc
which are condenmed are sold to scrap dealers. It is up to them to transport
them. Often the loco's/coaches are not in a fit state to travel by rail. 
Some condemned vehicles are cut up on site, however many contain asbestos
and have to be cut up in specialised buidings.



- David Stewart -
D.A.Stewart@ee.ed.ac.uk
Newsgroups: uk.transport
From: jfid@mfltd.co.uk (James Fidell (x5320))
Subject: Re: Cameras on roads/motorways
Organization: Micro Focus Ltd., Newbury, UK
Distribution: uk
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 14:47:51 GMT


In article <20730@acorn.co.uk>, steve@acorn.co.uk (Steve "daffy" Hunt) writes:

> Do they really use visible flash?  I would have thought infra-red
> would be more sensible - but perhaps that's not possible because
> of the material number plates are made from, or because they
> want to use the same film stock during the day.
> 
> Anyway, the temptation to build a flashback device is enormous...!
> 
> -- Steve
> -- 
> 				Steve Hunt	steve@acorn.co.uk

The idea is sound, but the GATSO machines take 2 pictures, 0.5 sec. apart,
so you need some way of coping with this - charging one flash in that sort of
time period might not be on, so you probably need two flash lamps.

So far, the best solution I have seen is a number plate which has the numbers
made out of the same material as the backing, so that they reflect far more of
the light than a standard one.  There's an interesting test in Fast Bikes
Jan 93 issue.  I've heard that this sort of number plate is illegal, but I
don't imagine that the chances of getting caught are high.  If you get caught
on film and the picture shows that you were attempting to avoid being
photographed, then you face as possible charge of "attempting to pervert the
course of justice", anyway.

How about some mechanism to blank out or remove the number plate, driven
by a radar detector ?

James.
-- 
 "Yield to temptation --             |
  it may not pass your way again"    |     jfid@mfltd.co.uk
                                     |
        - Lazarus Long               |              James Fidell
From: snail@lsl.co.uk
Newsgroups: uk.transport
Subject: Re: Motorway lane closures
Date: 16 Dec 92 12:08:55 GMT
Organization: Laser-Scan Ltd., Cambridge

In article <1gl6h4INN1fp@nemesis.muppet.bt.co.uk>, pip@muppet.bt.co.uk (Philip Rutter DNM22) writes:
> In article 2820@lsl.co.uk, snail@lsl.co.uk () writes:
>>
>>Me. I sit in the outside lane at the same position as I would have on the inner
>>lane. Why? To stop people (behind me) cheating the other people in the queue.
>                                        ^^^^^^^^
> Driving isn`t a game or a race is it ? :-)

I never said it was a game or a race. This selective quote completely loses
the context in which the phrase was written. The 'cheating' implied was
'queue jumping' which quite simply is selfish behaviour, which as most of
you on the net know, I don't like.
-- 
snail@lsl.co.uk      

muso/unix joke: "which debugger do you use?"
                "I use dbx..."
                "Oh really, we use Dolby C..."
Motorola inside.
From: ken@aiai.ed.ac.uk (Ken Johnson)
Newsgroups: uk.transport
Subject: Re: getting to Oxford
Date: 17 Dec 92 11:12:32 GMT
Followup-To: /dev/null
Distribution: uk
Organization: William's Wonderful Wonky Widget Warehouse


In article <1992Dec15.121730.14733@infodev.cam.ac.uk>
acb@cast0.ast.cam.ac.uk (Amanda Baker) writes:

#  Why is going via *Reading* the best way to get to Oxford when both
#  Oxford Citylink and (so I hear) the Oxford Tube run direct buses [...] ?


Because you get to go on a train, dunderhead.

steamily, Ken Johnson


-- 
Son, all the pretty, intelligent,      || Ken Johnson                           healthy young women are taken.         || A I Applications Institute
It's a basic rule of the universe,     || 80 South Bridge                       and if you don't like it,              || Edinburgh,  Scotland   EH1 1HN
go somewhere else.                     || Phone 031-650 2756   Fax 031-650 6513
               -- my dad  1906-1992    || E-mail ken@aiai.ed.ac.uk
From: Alan.Holmes@brunel.ac.uk (Alan J Holmes)
Newsgroups: uk.transport
Subject: Re: Let me into the asylum please!
Date: 17 Dec 92 12:12:27 GMT
Organization: Brunel University, West London, UK

In article <29630@castle.ed.ac.uk> ercm20@festival.ed.ac.uk (Sam Wilson) writes:

>It may not be *that* stupid.  One possibility is that it was going
>somewhere (or returning from somewhere) without rail access (e.g.  a
>scrap yard, though I don't know that BR commonly use any on the most
>likely routes between Malvern and Dundee).  Another possibility is that
>it was seriously broken.  One of the problems with the railways is the
>loading gauge, i.e.  the maximum cross section things can be without
>hitting bridges, platforms, signals, other trains, etc..  Locos tend to
>approach the limits of the loading gauge quite closely (and it's
>different on different lines!).  If a loco breaks down very badly it's
>difficult to find anything small enough and strong enough to put it on
>so that the ensemble can stay inside the loading gauge.  In that kind of
>case, if the thing can't be fixed on site, it's conceivable they'd take
>it by road. 

The only breakdown which would stop a loco from being transported by rail
would be an axle breaking, otherwise the loco could be towed.

Regards

Alan Holmes
From: ian@pharaoh.cyborg.bt.co.uk (Christmas Crocker)
Newsgroups: uk.transport
Subject: Re: Speed limit signs/ signs that 'cry wolf'
Date: 11 Dec 92 13:42:45 GMT
Distribution: uk
Organization: large

A.J.Robinson@lut.ac.uk (Alan Robinson) writes:


>1)  Going out of a village (30 mph) into the country up a 1 in 7 hill
>there is a 90 degree bend. Just BEFORE this bend ('cos THATs where
>they've GOTTA GO according to THE BOOK) is a pair of our friendly 
>white signs with black bars. Just how you could go through
>these signs up the hill at 60 unless you had the road and about 300bhp
>to yourself I dont know. Why couldnt they put the signs furher up 
>the hill (eg on a straight bit) ? 

Why ?  It seems pretty convoluted logic to say that speed limits should
reflect the speeds that cars are capable of.  Ans what of those people
who do have powerful cars ?  Oh, I see, you want to punish them...

>I think this sort of thing sometimes leads to a distrust of signs,
>eg 'bad bend' chevvrons. Im sure you can think of horrendous bends
>that are just over the brow of a hill and as tight as a very tight
>thing, with no chevvrons at all  or a very few at best, and other
>bends that you could take at the speed limit that have more
>chevvrons than a thing with very many chevvrons.

These dangerous bend signs with advisory speeds were erected when cars
still ran on crossply tyres and had drum brakes all round.  They are
antiquated and should be ignored most of the time.  Most people recognise
this fact, but they don't seem to be able to apply that logic to speed
limits in general.            

Ian.
-- 
Ian Crocker 					ian@cyborg.bt.co.uk
From: rap@nnsgs50.lon40.nt.com (Richard Porter)
Newsgroups: uk.transport
Subject: Re: Let me into the asylum please!
Date: 16 Dec 1992 13:38:28 GMT
Organization: BNR Europe Limited
NNTP-Posting-Host: nnsgs50.lon40.nt.com

In article <1992Dec16.121218.2524@dct.ac.uk> mcramm@dct.ac.uk (McRamm) writes:
or was it Angus M. Marshall?
>Well it's finally happened - I've seen what has to be the *stupidest* use
>of road transport yet.

>Travelling back to Dundee from Malvern I passed a wide HGV on the Motorway,
>nothing unusual there, except for its load. 

>The damn thing was carrying a BR loco. So musch for the statement in the
>House of Clowns yesterday that the government is committed to getting
>heavy loads back onto rail. How do they hope to manage it when even BR use
>road transport to shift their loco's around?

Do you know if it was a BR locomotive? It was more likely to have been a
withdrawn loco which had been sold to a preserved railway which may not
have been rail-connected. Even if the destination was rail-connected road
transport may have been cheaper than the exorbitant fees which BR charges
for moving locos around the country.

Another possibility is that you may have seen one of the refurbished Class 20s
which were sold to TML and which were quite unnecessarily sent by road. This
particular problem has now been resolved, I understand.

Richard
From: mcramm@dct.ac.uk (McRamm)
Newsgroups: uk.transport
Subject: Let me into the asylum please!
Date: 16 Dec 92 12:12:18 GMT
Organization: Dundee Institute of Technology

Well it's finally happened - I've seen what has to be the *stupidest* use
of road transport yet.

Travelling back to Dundee from Malvern I passed a wide HGV on the Motorway,
nothing unusual there, except for its load. 

The damn thing was carrying a BR loco. So musch for the statement in the
House of Clowns yesterday that the government is committed to getting
heavy loads back onto rail. How do they hope to manage it when even BR use
road transport to shift their loco's around?

-- 
 Angus M. Marshall, MCRAMM@DCT.AC.UK,amarshal@mcs.dund.ac.uk, (+44 382) 308600
Then I was gone, and in my place - a cat with green eyes.
    )     <-- Cheshire Smiley?
From: tjo@its.bt.co.uk (Tim Oldham)
Newsgroups: uk.transport
Subject: Re: Services on motorways
Date: 14 Dec 92 12:44:06 GMT
Organization: BT Group Computing Services, Birmingham, UK

In article <20717@acorn.co.uk> steve@acorn.co.uk (Steve "daffy" Hunt) writes:
>Ian G Batten (igb@fulcrum.co.uk) wrote:
>: In France, there are many service stations on the motorways.  They are
>: clean and have excellent food, by and large.  (May I recommend the
>
>I'll second that.  

It's a good job that some UK conglom has just bought a chain of French
service stations, then.

	Tim. ``Double egg and beans''
-- 
Tim Oldham, BT Group Computing Services.       tjo@its.bt.co.uk
``Sounds good to me''
From: jst@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Julian Turnbull)
Newsgroups: uk.transport
Subject: Re: National Speed Limit Applies
Date: 17 Dec 92 13:24:29 GMT
Reply-To: jst@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Julian Turnbull)
Organization: Department of Computer Science, Edinburgh University

In article <1992Dec10.150302.5118@gdr.bath.ac.uk> bspahh@gdr.bath.ac.uk (Andrew Henry) writes:

>I normally take it as meaning 70ish.  However, a couple of 
                 ^^ i.e. the "national speed limit sign"
>years ago a Friend of a Friend got nicked for doing 70 mph
>on the A74 on the way up to Glasgow.  He was driving a 
>minibus and that meant that the limit was 60 mph instead.  
>I'd never heard of this, but then I don't drive minibuses 
>very often. Is this an urban legend or a Scottish 
>interpretation of the law ?

Neither.  This is for real, and UK-wide.

Individual classes of vehicle can have their own speed limits (which, to
confuse the issue further, may vary with the type of road you're on).  For
motorcycles, cars, and car-derived vans (intended to let through things like
Escort and Astra vans, but not Transits and the like), you're OK, but if you
drive anything else (or tow anything) you'd better do your homework first.  As
your FOAF found out, the limit for a minibus (technically, a Large Passenger
Vehicle) on the A74 is 60 mph; for an HGV, it's 50.

Some vehicle classes have overall maxima as low as 20 mph.  I think the old
3-wheel Invacars had this restriction.  Naturally, the speed limit which

In days gone by, the RAC handbook used to have some pretty good information
on motoring law - far more complete and detailed than the stuff in the back
of the Highway Code.  Don't know if it still does.

Julian.

-- 
| Julian Turnbull,                               | Phone: +44 31 650 5124
| Department of Computer Science                 | JANET: jst@uk.ac.ed.dcs
| University of Edinburgh, Edinburgh EH9 3JZ,    | Everywhere else:
| Scotland, U.K.                                 |        jst@dcs.ed.ac.uk
From: bspahh@gdr.bath.ac.uk (Andrew Henry)
Newsgroups: uk.transport
Subject: Re: Speed limit signs/ signs that 'cry wolf'
Date: 12 Dec 92 17:26:14 GMT
Distribution: uk
Organization: School of Biological Sciences, University of Bath, UK

In the referenced article, des@inmos.co.uk (David Shepherd) writes:
>In article <1992Dec9.160930.1126@lut.ac.uk>, A.J.Robinson@lut.ac.uk (Alan Robinson) writes:
>> 
>> While were on the subject of speed limits etc, has anyone noticed
>> any patently absurd placing of signs/setting of limits ?
>[deleted...]
>
>the flip-side of this is what happens when you visit a country
>where the signs do give accurate info. i can remember several years
>ago coming off an autobahn in germany and finding that, to my
>surprise, the 60kph speed sign was serious as the slip round turned 
>into a viciously tight corkscrew. 

One solution in this case is not to have stupid cloverleaf junctions
for Autobahns but thats another argument.  

On the German equivalent of A roads around Hannover, I found that where
there was a bend where you had to take care, they would set a speed
limit about 200 yards either side of the corner.  The limit would be
set very close to the speed that you could just get through the corner
with an ordinary car.  What really annoyed me was that after the
corner, you could have a clear straight road with a silly speed limit
for a couple of hundred yards.  The problem isn't that I'd be delayed
for a couple of seconds.  Its that accelerating out of a slow corner is
one of the safer places to overtake.

Another point is that there was a tendancy to trust the road signs and
not to judge your own safe speed for your vehicle in the prevailing 
conditions.  I much prefer "SLOW" road markings.

			Andrew  Henry
Sempre  Gilles					bspahh@gdr.bath.ac.uk
From: ianking@nnsgs52.lon40.nt.com (Ian King)
Newsgroups: uk.transport
Subject: Re: National Speed Limit Applies
Date: 17 Dec 1992 14:58:25 GMT
Organization: Northern Telecom Europe Ltd
Reply-To: ianking@lon40.nt.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: nnsgs52.lon40.nt.com
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8]

Julian Turnbull (jst@dcs.ed.ac.uk) wrote:
: In article <1992Dec10.150302.5118@gdr.bath.ac.uk> bspahh@gdr.bath.ac.uk (Andrew Henry) writes:

: Individual classes of vehicle can have their own speed limits (which, to
: confuse the issue further, may vary with the type of road you're on).  For
: motorcycles, cars, and car-derived vans (intended to let through things like
: Escort and Astra vans, but not Transits and the like), you're OK, but if you
                                 ^^^^^^^^
Sorry... I had to smile....:-)..... I dont know what they put in Transits
these days but it must be rocket fuel..... here I am on the M1 in the 
middle lane at around 70mph overtaking traffic in the 'slow' lane when
a Transit comes hammering up the 'fast' lane.... and I seem to be
going backwards............

Actually what really surprises me is the speed of these little light vans; the
Bedford/Renault 5/Citroen Visa type. The drivers must have their right foot
flat down against the floor!

By the way I always thought the speed of HGVs on motorways was 60mph. Now if
this is so and they are fitted with Tachographs then why doesnt the DoT
prosecute more drivers for exceeding the limit? I suppose the answer is that
they don't have enough staff to check everybody. But surely since most HGVs
travel at 70-75mph all they have to do is take their pick. Incidentally
coaches/buses are now definately limited to 70mph.... you can always tell by
the queue behind them in the outside lane :-)

Regards...
.........Ian
          M1/M25 commuter
--
ADVANCE MICRO COMPUTERS LTD & Wolverton Rail | EMAIL: ianking@amicro.demon.co.uk
 PO Box 362, Olney, Nr. Milton Keynes,       |   or   ianking@lon40.nt.com
  Bucks, MK46 5ES, ENGLAND, UK.              |                ^^^^^^^^^^^^ UK not USA
   TEL: +44 (0)234-711615 FAX: +44 (0)234-240976 MOBILE: +44 (0)831-535618
Newsgroups: uk.transport
From: pete@tecc.co.uk (Pete Bentley)
Subject: Re: Cameras on roads/motorways
Organization: T.E.C.C. Ltd, London, England
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5
Distribution: uk
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 14:20:46 GMT

Steve daffy Hunt (steve@acorn.co.uk) wrote:
 >> Pete Bentley (pete@tecc.co.uk) wrote:
 >> : Speed sensors for Traffic Master.  [...]
 >> 
 >> Waste of technology.  
Yup.  Quite a nice bit of marketting if it takes off, though...making
money out of the lemmings by selling them something they think is
a solution, when in fact all it does is tell them the problem.

 >> I believe it only covers the M25 and its approaches.  
I believe it now covers big stretches of M1, M3, M4 and some major
`A' roads.

 >> You get far more useful information with a cheap C.B.
Really?  Is it actually possible to get useful information that way?

 >> Just think of all those harassed commuters peering at the little
 >> screen while they drive bumper-to-bumper round the fast lane of the
 >> M25.  Eeek.
 >> 
Frightening.  I saw one in an office the other day.  I have good, uncorrected
eyesight and I had to virtually stick my nose against the glass to
figure out what was displayed.  F*** knows what it would be like in
a car in bright sunlight.

Pete.
From: daves@comp.lancs.ac.uk (Dave Stow)
Newsgroups: uk.transport
Subject: Re: What are those white squares in M-way lanes for?
Date: 13 Dec 92 21:26:43 GMT
Distribution: uk
Organization: Department of Computing at Lancaster University, UK.

In article <Bz3L70.1oz@kings.demon.co.uk> lls@kings.demon.co.uk (Lady Lodge Systems) writes:
>Having been nicked by a VASCAR equiped car this year.......

Aha - another one... August before last for me!

>You might tell from the above that I'm a little cynical about VASCAR;

Yeah - me too.

HAving been done for doing 100.5 mph - I lost my license for 28 days.
(As well as being fined!)

So is VASCAR accurate to 0.5%? Hah! I think not... Having driven
80 miles just to go to court, arrived at the allotted 9:45 and then
spent until _4:20pm_ just to spend about 8 minutes in court I was
more than a little miffed.

Particularly as they ban _on_the_spot_ so you can't drive yourself
home... (Luckily I had a friend who had driven me over.)

I should have made a fuss I guess, but I wasn't expecting to lose my
license. Also - my insurance practically _doubled_. And now it is a
almost impossible for me hire vehicles as well. 

All for 0.5 of a mph? Time the traffic police got real - I got no
brownie points for giving people lifts, moving people's belongings
around for them, for never drinking _at_all_ when driving...

Anyway - [descend hobby horse]

Have a good Christmas, but watch yer speed!

Dave
From: ian@pharaoh.cyborg.bt.co.uk (Christmas Crocker)
Newsgroups: uk.transport
Subject: Re: Speed limit signs/ signs that 'cry wolf'
Date: 11 Dec 92 13:44:35 GMT
Distribution: uk
Organization: large

simon@pharaoh.cyborg.bt.co.uk (Simon) writes:

>All these things lead one to distrust the signs on principle which makes 
>things all the more dangerous when there is a real hazzard.
						    ^^^^^^^

As in Bo and Luke Duke ?

Ian.
-- 
Ian Crocker 					ian@cyborg.bt.co.uk