HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jrg@doc.ic.ac.uk (James Grinter)
Newsgroups: uk.misc
Subject: Re: Record shops (LPs)
Date: 14 Dec 92 16:28:57 GMT
Organization: Dept. of Computing, Imperial College, Univ. of London, UK
Distribution: uk
	<Bz4Grp.7q@jshark.inet-uk.co.uk>
NNTP-Posting-Host: owl.doc.ic.ac.uk
In-reply-to: joe@jshark.inet-uk.co.uk's message of Sat, 12 Dec 1992 01:14:12 GMT

In article <Bz4Grp.7q@jshark.inet-uk.co.uk> joe@jshark.inet-uk.co.uk (Joe Sharkey) writes:


   >A lot of people still complain that CD sounds "cold" or "artificial".
   >Well, yes, the old players did; the first CD player I bought (the
   >original Philips CD104) was pretty awful.  But each year's selection
   >of machines is audibly better than the previous year's; they're
   >catching up fast.

   I still use 1/4" tape - if it was good enough for the record company master,
   it's god enough for me.

This reminds me of something I have often puzzled over. Perhaps the
answer is so easy that I'm missing something, anyway - heregoes...

We're told, that the latest players are always getting better and
reading and playing the data from the CD more accurately. Does this
give the possibility that the data on the disc, when it was recorded,
could be incorrect too? Or are they saying that the recording
equipment has always been perfect, but we've only just fixed the
players?

James.
--
James Grinter, c/o Dept Of Computing, Imperial College, LONDON, SW7 2BZ.
Aeval({227406,131304,719166,950732,993440,1364628,1491756,1868584,1235232,;
2151480,2524368,2802876,2769312,2839886,3104325,1824},;
{|x,y| QQout(chr((x%2048)/y)+chr(int((x/2048)/y))) })
From: SJKlyne@cen.ex.ac.uk (S.J.Klyne)
Newsgroups: uk.misc
Subject: Re: Record shops (LPs)
Date: 15 Dec 92 18:24:54 GMT
Distribution: uk
Organization: Computer Unit. - University of Exeter. UK

Anyone who is interested in a mailing list that specialises in discussing
LP and analogue HiFi might like to know about "analogue-addicts"

send email to "analogue-addicts-request@maths.ex.ac.uk"

simon

--
Simon Klyne, Department of Mathematics, University of Exeter, England
email :    SJKlyne@vortex1.exeter.ac.uk
-- 
Simon Klyne, Department of Mathematics, University of Exeter, England
email :    SJKlyne@vortex1.exeter.ac.uk
Newsgroups: uk.misc
From: joe@jshark.inet-uk.co.uk (Joe Sharkey)
Subject: Re: Record shops (LPs)
Organization: Independent Network (UK)
Distribution: uk
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 01:14:12 GMT

In article <17imVB39w165w@mantis.co.uk> mathew <mathew@mantis.co.uk> writes:
>Oh, do be serious.  If people wanted to buy records, the manufacturers would
>make them.  They're only in the business to make money, after all.  Cassettes
>are analogue, noisy, and wear out just like records, but they're still made. 

Don't be silly, the industry works on profit margins, not what the customer
wants.  (See: "LP vs cassette, quality")

>What has killed records is that nobody wants to buy them except a few hi-fi
>bores spouting pseudo-science.

They're big, heavy and you can put 100 CD/cassettes in the space of 20 LPs.

Economics. Period.

>bores spouting pseudo-science.  And the reason for that is that LPs have no
>real advantages over CD, except that very high quality equipment to play them
>can be made more cheaply than an equivalently high quality CD player.

Linn-Sondek + SME + cartridge: best part of a grand - and this would be
(just about) mainstream.

"Decent" CD players are 150-200 pounds....

>Hell, I'm picky.  I spent quite a lot on my CD player, because I really could
>hear the difference between it and anything cheaper.  But as a medium, CD is
>good enough for me, and it was worth paying twice the cost of a good
>turntable to get the convenience benefits of CD.  I only have a few remaining
>records I haven't replaced with CDs; if you want, I'll sell 'em to you cheap.

I'll buy them!  A pound or so each, as you only listen to "industrial music"

I've too many LPs to consider moving - I couldn't afford to move to CD (or
DCC or...), even if I wanted to.

>A lot of people still complain that CD sounds "cold" or "artificial".  Well,
>yes, the old players did; the first CD player I bought (the original Philips
>CD104) was pretty awful.  But each year's selection of machines is audibly
>better than the previous year's; they're catching up fast.

I still use 1/4" tape - if it was good enough for the record company master,
it's god enough for me.

>mathew
>-- 
>You can communicate with me securely via PGP 2.1.  For information, send mail
>to pgpinfo@mantis.co.uk.  For a big block of keys, mail pgpkeys@mantis.co.uk.
>PGP public key fingerprint = B2 41 30 5F 5B 20 B9 D5  7C 8F 75 88 7C DA D8 C5
>


-- 
Joe Sharkey     joe@jshark.inet-uk.co.uk    ...!uunet!ibmpcug!jshark!joe
150 Hatfield Rd, St Albans, Herts AL1 4JA, UK     Got a real domain name
(+44) 71 629 5932          Mail or News (v32/v32bis): info@inet-uk.co.uk
Newsgroups: uk.misc
From: mathew <mathew@mantis.co.uk>
Newsgroups: uk.misc
Subject: Re: Record shops (LPs)
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 92 17:22:33 GMT
Distribution: uk
Organization: Mantis Consultants, Cambridge. UK.

steve@acorn.co.uk (Steve "daffy" Hunt) writes:
> And it's obvious why.  They know perfectly well that record-buyers
> don't stop buying music when records become unavailable.  They're
> forced into buying CDs instead.  The record companies don't lose out.
> So they save big $$$ by making one product instead of two.  And pass
> that saving onto the customer by keeping the price of CDs low -- NOT!

I bought an album on CD for #10.99.  Previously, I had bought it on tape for
#5.99, worn the tape out through repeated listening, bought it on LP for
#6.99, and worn the LP out through repeated listening.  Which was cheaper,
the LP and tape or the CD?


mathew
-- 
Lung cancer and arteriosclerosis.
For people who like to smoke.
From: wilcox@vax.oxford.ac.uk
Newsgroups: uk.misc
Subject: Re: Network Marketing
Date: 16 Dec 92 11:43:37 GMT
Organization: Oxford University VAX 6620

In article <GRC.92Dec8162711@bhars109.stl.stc.co.uk>, grc@stl.stc.co.uk (Gary Cook) writes:
> 
>  Who's had experience of Network Marketing ? Tell me about it, is it
> good/bad/safe/dodgy/legal/illegal .....
> 
For an object lesson in the dangers of network marketing, read the Biff cartoon
in the Saturday Weekend Guardian for a couple of weeks in November. You lose
all your friends and become a dinner-party bore.

> Anyone heard of an American company called NSA (into water/air filters
> etc..)
> 
I think they're rather less dodgy than the rest: they work on a sale or return
basis and commission is paid only to a fixed number of rungs in the ladder so
the goods are sold at a fixed price. Still, be very careful! (Information
probably garnered from You and Yours on Radio 4: they'll have a factsheet if it
was them.)
-- 

Stephen Wilcox             |   For Sale: Posts in British Government. Suit
wilcox@vax.oxford.ac.uk    |   outgoing American. Highest bids accepted.
From: fofp@castle.ed.ac.uk (M Holmes)
Newsgroups: uk.misc
Subject: Hawkwind on TV
Date: 15 Dec 92 14:57:20 GMT
Distribution: uk
Organization: Edinburgh University

I've heard that Hawkwind were on Anglia or East Anglia TV around a
couple of months back. If anyone has the piece on video, could they
please get in touch?

Cheers

FoFP
Newsgroups: uk.misc
From: steveh@orbital.demon.co.uk (Stephen Hebditch)
Subject: Re: Record shops (LPs)
Organization: TQM Communications, London, UK
Distribution: uk
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1992 12:23:51 GMT

In article <1739@lucifer.UUCP> rob@liciren.li.co.uk (Rob Clive) writes:
>BTW has anyone noticed what the average length of a CD recording is?
>Given that the maximum possible length of a CD is about 80 minutes it
>seems a rip off to purchase ones that have only 40 - 45 minutes on them.
>We seem to be paying out not only for the support of the record company
>but also for a lot of nothing.  Does anyone else think the same?

You mean you buy music by quantity not quality?

-- 
Stephen Hebditch  TQM Communications  steveh@orbital.demon.co.uk +44 836 825962
Newsgroups: uk.misc
From: mac742@cent1.lancs.ac.uk (Andrew Stoker)
Subject: Toasting
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 13:01:16 +0000 (GMT)
X-Received: by usenet.pa.dec.com; id AA27129; Wed, 16 Dec 92 05:01:32 -0800
X-Received: by inet-gw-1.pa.dec.com; id AA05282; Wed, 16 Dec 92 05:01:29 -0800
X-Via: uk.ac.lancaster.central1; Wed, 16 Dec 1992 13:01:03 +0000
X-To: uk.misc.usenet
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL13]
X-Content-Type: text
X-Content-Length: 182

We the willing
lead by the unknowing
are doing the impossible
for the unaware.
we have done so much
with so little
for so long
that we are now
qualified to
do anything with
nothing.
From: steve@acorn.co.uk (Steve "daffy" Hunt)
Newsgroups: uk.misc
Subject: Re: Record shops (LPs)
Date: 16 Dec 92 15:32:53 GMT
Distribution: uk
Organization: Acorn Computers Limited, Cambridge, UK
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8]

mathew (mathew@mantis.co.uk) wrote:
: The profit on selling 100 LPs is larger than the profit on selling 10 CDs. 
: If the customers really wanted LPs, there's no way the industry would be able
: to railroad them into buying CDs.

The reality of the situation is more like 10 LPs for every 100 CDs
sold.  The record industry would rather stop making LPs and
concentrate on CDs, even if it means sacrificing those sales
altogether - they can make more money from those pressing plants by
converting them to CD production.  In reality the situation is even
better for them - they know that they won't lose many of those sales,
as those people will reluctantly buy CDs rather than doing without the
music altogether.
-- 
				Steve Hunt	steve@acorn.co.uk
From: ccdarg@dct.ac.uk (Alan Greig)
Newsgroups: uk.misc
Subject: Re: Overtaking on the Inside
Date: 10 Dec 92 10:19:35 GMT
Organization: Dundee Institute of Technology

In article <1g56taINNp7f@bnsgd245.bnr.co.uk>, rap@nnsgs50.lon40.nt.com (Richard Porter) writes:
> In article <ByzvLF.KF0@fulcrum.co.uk> rct@fulcrum.co.uk
> (Richard Taylor) writes:
> 
>>Go and read uk.transport.
>>Regards,
>>Richard Taylor                  DoD #981                 (rct@fulcrum.co.uk)
>>Fulcrum Communications Ltd., Fordrough Lane, Birmingham, B9 5LD, ENGLAND.
> 
> Newsgroup uk.transport does not exist!

Well moan at your sysadmin.

-- 
Alan Greig                            Janet: Alan@UK.AC.DUNDEE-TECH
Dundee Institute of Technology	   Internet: Alan@DCT.AC.UK
Tel: (0382) 308810                 Int: +44 382 308810
              -- There is only one true conspiracy --
From: ccs@aber.ac.uk (Christopher "Jd" Samuel)
Newsgroups: uk.misc
Subject: Re: Surprisingly light on his feet
Date: 11 Dec 92 09:11:58 GMT
Organization: University of Wales - Aberystwyth - Prifysgol Cymru

In article <MARK.92Dec7102437@runningbear.edscom.demon.co.uk>
   mark@edscom.demon.co.uk (Mark Neale) doodled:

> In one of the Thomas Covenant books by Steven Donaldson, a giant is
> described as saying something in "a voice of annealed iron".  WOW.
> Soft, bendable and rather discoloured from the heat!

Acually, there is one point where that would have been appropriate,
in the near the end of the First Chronicles where Saltheart Foamfollwer
wades through the lava, bearing Thomas Covenant safely across.

I reckon I'd be feeling pretty annealed after that.. :-)

Chris
-- 
 Christopher Samuel, c/o Computer Unit, UCW Aberystwyth, Aberystwyth, WALES
  RFC: ccs@aber.ac.uk   UUCP: *!mcsun!uknet!aber!ccs   JNT: ccs@uk.ac.aber
          Deddf Iaith Newydd i Gymru | New Language Act for Wales
From: cc@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Chris Cooke)
Newsgroups: uk.misc
Subject: Re: Liberties (was Re: Transport subsidies - Was: Car Parking)
Date: 18 Dec 92 15:48:36 GMT
	<29333@castle.ed.ac.uk> <1992Dec16.123433.10838@vax.oxford.ac.uk>
	<29735@castle.ed.ac.uk>
Organization: Department of Computer Science, University of Edinburgh, Scotland

In article <29735@castle.ed.ac.uk> fofp@castle.ed.ac.uk (M Holmes) writes:

   wilcox@vax.oxford.ac.uk writes:

   >Look. None of us want people to lose their rights and freedoms. Indeed
   >many of us urgently want this country to be much freer and have more
   >regard for basic rights. But no-one (I think) apart from you believes
   >that National Health Care is the first step along the road to a police
   >state.

   Me neither. The point you start towards that is when payment towards it
   is mandatory on pain of imprisonment. The minute that happens, the
   government has the right to your property without your consent. 

They certainly have my consent; I'm perfectly willing to pay may National
Insurance contributions, thank you very much.  If you're not, shame on you.
--
	-- Chris. 	cc@dcs.ed.ac.uk   (on Janet, cc@uk.ac.ed.dcs)
From: snail@lsl.co.uk
Newsgroups: uk.misc
Subject: Re: Record shops (LPs)
Date: 16 Dec 92 11:00:03 GMT
Distribution: uk
Organization: Laser-Scan Ltd., Cambridge

In article <ag4TVB19w165w@mantis.co.uk>, mathew@mantis.co.uk (mathew) writes:
> steve@acorn.co.uk (Steve "daffy" Hunt) writes:
>> And it's obvious why.  They know perfectly well that record-buyers
>> don't stop buying music when records become unavailable.  They're
>> forced into buying CDs instead.  The record companies don't lose out.
>> So they save big $$$ by making one product instead of two.  And pass
>> that saving onto the customer by keeping the price of CDs low -- NOT!
> 
> I bought an album on CD for #10.99.  Previously, I had bought it on tape for
> #5.99, worn the tape out through repeated listening, bought it on LP for
> #6.99, and worn the LP out through repeated listening.  Which was cheaper,
> the LP and tape or the CD?

Just shows the power of marketing. Next year you'll be telling us about the
mini-disc player you've bought and the DCC drive you've got. Thats a total of
23.97 you spent on one piece of music, which I presume was a single album.
Value for money. Ah yes, it is a free market, I forgot.

In answer to the question, The CD was cheaper to the buyer, but very few
people will have gone through all formats before buying the tape, I just
find that remarkable.
-- 
snail@lsl.co.uk      

muso/unix joke: "which debugger do you use?"
                "I use dbx..."
                "Oh really, we use Dolby C..."
Motorola inside.
Newsgroups: uk.misc
From: eset08@castle.ed.ac.uk (J Strobridge)
Newsgroups: uk.misc
Subject: Re: Record shops (LPs)
Date: 17 Dec 92 20:24:26 GMT
Distribution: uk
Organization: Edinburgh University

So far as I remember there was a deliberate marketing attempt to ensure
that the production of CDs was targetted at a particular range of
people - i.e. those aged 25-45 in the middle income range who had been
vinyl collectors, or maybe just had one or two favourite records, and whose
record playing equipment was beginning to age.    This is why many of the
initial issues of CDs tended to be reissues of 60s or 70s music - ok I fell
this trap too - and people would also buy the new technology to go with
it.  Worked quite well I think!

2 queries though - why are CDs so incredibly much cheaper in the States
than they are over here (and in Europe too, import stuff from Europe is
desperately expensive)?

   -   is it just a sort of urban legend that each CD has a plastic
coating over the top - as protection - and that the life
expectancy of this plastic coating is about the same as any other
cheapish plastic before it begins to disintigrate?    I'm afraid this
may be a somewhat ignorant question - but if anyone can offer
reassurance on this I'd be glad to hear it!




jill
From: bsstrs@gdr.bath.ac.uk (T R Stickland)
Newsgroups: uk.misc
Subject: Re: Record shops (LPs)
Date: 15 Dec 92 15:32:40 GMT
Distribution: uk
Organization: School of Biological Sciences, University of Bath, UK

In the referenced article, mathew@mantis.co.uk (mathew) writes:
>evansmp@uhura.aston.ac.uk (Mark Evans) writes:
>> 
>> Tricky, the industry has tried very hard to kill the format off. 
>
>Oh, do be serious.  If people wanted to buy records, the manufacturers would
>make them.  They're only in the business to make money, after all.  Cassettes
>are analogue, noisy, and wear out just like records, but they're still made. 

Look at it like this:

can you think of a better way to get people to buy lots of new equipment
and new recordings (duplicating what they already have to varying extents)?

Selling people stuff that they already have - and wouldn't otherwise buy -
sounds like a pretty good incentive for _any_ industry to me!

tim

p.s. the idea that only expensive turntables beat CDs in terms of sound
quality is a myth.  If you buy Rega, Linn, etc then pound-for-pound you
get more sound value with the LP player.  You DON'T get things like
the convenience, gadgets (program track order, etc), and restistance to
incompetant handling if you go for LPs.  Your free choice, but the "LPs
for elitists" argument is total b*ll*cks!

-- 
# Tim Stickland # bsstrs@gdr.bath.ac.uk # A politician uses science like a    #
# School of Biology, Univ. of Bath,     # drunk uses a lamp post -            #
# Bath, BA2 7AY, U.K. # TEL +44 (0)225  # more for support than illumination. #
# 826826 x5864 # FAX +44 (0)225 826779  #  ('Wildcat', Donald Rooum)          #
Newsgroups: uk.misc
From: pete@beowulf.demon.co.uk (Peter Lynch)
Subject: Re: Speed freaks: some figure
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 92 20:49:53 GMT
Organization: home
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL3

martin.briscoe@almac.co.uk (Martin Briscoe) writes:
: 
: GT.I was under the impression that Volvos weren't significantly safer -
:   .just that they had such good advertising that they were perceived
:   .as safer - which is all that counts in this argument about inconsiderate
: 
: The Dept of Transport has published figures on road accidents the last 
: couple of years.  They showed that, as expected, heavier cars are 
                                                   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
: "safer" than lighter cars.  Volvos were about average for a heavy car 
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
: and there were several "safer" types.
: 
Safer for who? I'm sure they allow the occupants to walk away from 
more accidents, but are they "safer" for the person in the trabant
or whatever that just got flattened by a ton of iron. In the same 
way, if all cars were safer/heavier then the effect would be negated.
It's only because they are heavier than average (hence the comparative
I suppose) that it works.

Pete

-- 
..............................................................................
. demon is a commercial internet gateway .......... Pete Lynch               .
. providing access for unrelated users   .......... Marlow, England          .
................................................... pete@beowulf.demon.co.uk .
From: steve@acorn.co.uk (Steve "daffy" Hunt)
Newsgroups: uk.misc
Subject: Re: Record shops (LPs)
Date: 18 Dec 92 14:44:15 GMT
Distribution: uk
Organization: Acorn Computers Limited, Cambridge, UK
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8]

Rob Clive (rob@liciren.li.co.uk) wrote:
: >(2) won't work.  There's no motivation to replace your CDs with DCC; you can
: >    just tape them yourself.

: Don't think so.  Ever heard of Serial Copy Management?  The record
: industry *insisted* that copy protection hardware be built into every
: DCC.  After all, if you've got one gold mine (CD) why spoil the chances
: of another one (DCC).  So all those blank DCC tapes people buy will
: *really* be for recording bird song :-)

Not really.  SCMS specifically *allows* you to make digital copies of
CDs.  It only stops you from making copies of the copies.  This
compromise was reached by the music industry, the hardware
manufacturers and the blank tape manufacturers in a surprising show of
common sense.

: BTW has anyone noticed what the average length of a CD recording is?
: Given that the maximum possible length of a CD is about 80 minutes it
: seems a rip off to purchase ones that have only 40 - 45 minutes on them.
: We seem to be paying out not only for the support of the record company
: but also for a lot of nothing.  Does anyone else think the same?

Not really.  While the average length of albums is increasing, they
are mostly achieving this by including mediocre tracks that previously
didn't make it onto the records because they weren't very good.
-- 
				Steve Hunt	steve@acorn.co.uk
From: mathew <mathew@mantis.co.uk>
Newsgroups: uk.misc
Subject: Re: Transport subsidies - Was: Car Parking
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 92 16:43:36 GMT
Distribution: uk
Organization: Mantis Consultants, Cambridge. UK.

sb380@city.ac.uk (HOLT A D) writes:
> mathew <mathew@mantis.co.uk> writes:
> >That's nothing -- I have to pay for all the roads I *don't* use.  I never us
> >motorways, for example.
>
> I think you do use them (indirectly) - the beer you drink, the grain that is
> used to make that beer, the food you buy in the supermarket. All those travel
> by Motorway.

Then I indirectly use the roads in America -- does that mean I should
be taxed to pay for them?


mathew
-- 
Lung cancer and arteriosclerosis.
For people who like to smoke.
From: steve@acorn.co.uk (Steve "daffy" Hunt)
Newsgroups: uk.misc
Subject: Re: Transport subsidies - Was: Car Parking
Date: 15 Dec 92 10:15:20 GMT
Distribution: uk
Organization: Acorn Computers Limited, Cambridge, UK
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8]

Simon B Proven IE91 (sproven@cs.strath.ac.uk) wrote:
: When I was at school, the police advised us NOT to get a mirror because
: we might get impaled on it in an accident... (happended to one of the
: kids from our school as it happens...).

That strikes me as about as sensible as those people who say that
seatbelts are dangerous because they can trap you in a burning car.
Sure, there might a small number of cases of people getting impaled on
mirrors, but it can't be significant compared with the safety
advantage of being able to see what's behind you.  And if there is a
danger of impalation, it's a fault of a particular mirror design - I
can't see any way of "impaling" myself on my Mountain Mirrycle.

The police were pretty irresponsible saying that IMHO.  But then, I
don't have much faith in the police force at the best of times :-(

-- Steve
-- 
				Steve Hunt	steve@acorn.co.uk
From: fofp@castle.ed.ac.uk (M Holmes)
Newsgroups: uk.misc
Subject: Re: Transport subsidies - Was: Car Parking
Date: 14 Dec 92 13:16:11 GMT
Organization: Edinburgh University

[I lost the attribution, sorry.]

On the idea of road tolls and the charging for crossing other people's land..

>>>, with the penalty for non-conformance being that
>>>they be imprisoned in their own homes, or have access to their
>>>businesses cut off.

I'm glad to hear that you don't agree with people being imprisoned for
non-conformance. That's what happens for "non-conformance" with the
current confiscatory taxation scheme which I've been arguing against.
Welcome to the opposition!

FoFP
From: Alan.Holmes@brunel.ac.uk (Alan J Holmes)
Newsgroups: uk.misc
Subject: Re: Mailing lists from hell
Date: 15 Dec 92 13:38:37 GMT
Organization: Brunel University, West London, UK

In article <1992Dec14.101847.704@city.cs> simon@cs.city.ac.uk (Simon Brock-Gunn) writes:
>After my father died at the start of last year, various companies (mainly
>in the computing sector) carried on sending junk mail addressed to him.
>After a while, my mother became so annoyed with these that she got me to
>register his name with the Mailing Preference Service and to write to all
>the companies that had sent mail and ask them to stop.  A few months

>However, it seems there is a hard-core of companies that just don't want
>to listen.  My mother has now taken to calling the 0800 numbers on most of
>the literature that arrives in the hope that this will make a difference.
>However, for one of the companies - Olivetti - this has had the reverse
>effect:  After calling their 0800 number recently, an item of junk mail
>arrived last Friday with the following address label on the front:

>MRS BROCK-GUNN
>WIDOW - SEE COMMENTS
>(rest of address)

>Anyone got any suggestions?

What I have been doing, is to write on the envelopes, 'return to sender'
and put it back in the mail.  I do this in the hope that the originating
company will have to pay the return postage and get so fed up with
it that they do remove me from their lists.  I think it must be working
as the volume of junk mail has been getting smaller.

Regards

Alan Holmes