From: genetic+@pitt.edu (Dr. Dave)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: The Monthly Cecil Fielder Thread
Date: 6 Sep 92 21:26:32 GMT
Organization: Department of Industrial Engineering

Thus spake fester@island.COM (Mike Fester):
>
>>Of course.  And the Tigers scored all those runs because of the outstanding
>>performances of Whitaker, Phillips, Tettleton, Fielder, Fryman, and a few
>>good role players.  Giving Fielder all the credit simply because he's the one
>>who ended the rallies is absurd.
>
>"Ended the rallies"? Hmm. Doesn't SEEM like Fielder had 130+ Sac Flies each of
>the last 3 years. Perhaps you could post those numbers for us.

I meant "ended the rallies" as in "was the last of the several pieces that
caused that particular run to score", not "prevented further scoring".  I see
no reason why Cecil should get special credit for making his contribution after
being set up by Whitaker/Phillips/etc., as opposed to making it at the start
of a rally.

>In the "Oh by the way" category, Fryman had a worse OBP AND SLG than Fielder 
>last year (and the year before). In 1990, Fielder had the highest SLG and OBP 
>on the team. (Yes Dave, higher than Whit, etc). 

I know.  If you go back and read what we've been saying, nobody here has any
problems with Cecil's performance in 1990.  He was a close second behind
Henderson in offensive value that year, and an outstanding offensive force.
The problem is with people who seem to think that nothing has changed since
then...

>in runs. This year (a bad year for Fielder) 

EXACTLY.  That's what we've been trying to get some people to admit.  It
is a bad year for Cecil, RBI tallies notwithstanding.

>his OBP is about the same as 
>Fryman's (~10 pts less) his SLG is higher (~20 pts), so if Fryman's having an 
>outstanding year at the plate, Fielder must be as well. 

Either that, or Fryman must play a key defensive position.  Like shortsto

Let me summarize my position, to avoid further confusion.  Cecil Fielder has,
over the past three years, amassed tons of RBIs by a combination of three
factors:

	1. The guys who bat ahead of him have great OBP, and get themselves
	   not only on base but also into scoring position at a very high rate.
	2. Cecil (usually) has a high slugging average, although it's down
	   quite a bit over the past two years.
	3. Cecil has had a rather higher SLG with men on base (and RISP) than
	   in other situations.

Now, I believe that (1) is clearly not Cecil's fault, and I also believe that
there is no evidence that (3) is Cecil's fault above and beyond (2).  That
argument is technical, and has been presented before, and if you don't buy
it I can't help that.  Which leaves (2), by which measure Cecil is getting
less and less impressive every day.  In 1990, he was awesome.  In 1991 he was
quite valuable (though not a legitimate MVP candidate).  This year, he is very
mediocre, especially when you factor in his "defense".

-- 
      David M. Tate      | From my dugout sleep I fell into the Game
 dtate@unix.cis.pitt.edu | And I crouched in the circle while my insides froze
 Randall 'Chico' Jarrell | One out from death, one hit from dreamt-of glory
"Death of a Pinch Hitter"| I woke to 'Strike One!' and the nightmare sliders...
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball