HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: rpg@world.std.com (r goldsmith)
Subject: Guidebooks to Bavarian, Austrian Alps
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Distribution: rec
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1992 18:57:13 GMT


I'm planning a vacation to the Bavarian Alps, and the neighboring
Autrian peaks, in early-mid October.  I would like to do some
hiking/easy climbing and am looking for some English language
guidebooks.  I have access to plenty of German language guides (though
recommendations are welcome).  Since I can read these only very
slowly, I'd like to find something in English to supplement them.
Neither REI nor the AMC, nor the publishers I've talked to has been
able to help.  Any idaes?

Reply to:
rpg@world.std.com

Thanks!
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: ghill@dot.cs.colorado.edu (Gregory Hill)
Subject: chalk
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 04:59:16 GMT

It's all been said, but not in one place yet. so here goes. I'll
keep it simple, and work off of bill's list (modified somewhat, in
an attempt to be non-judgemental):

	1.) Chalk lets you climb harder routes. 

	2.) Chalk is highly visible. 
	    2a.) chalked holds can indicate the route.

        3.) Holds frequently used without chalk get greasy. 
	    3a.) holds frequently used with chalk are less greasy
	         if you are using chalk yourself; if you are not
	         using chalk then they are very greasy.

	4.) Non-climbers are involved.
	    4a.) Access issues are involved.

Now, some people seem to have positive associations with some of these
points, while others have negative associations with the same points,
hence the disagreement. For example, Bill's version of #2 is "chalk is
ugly", while others like to see chalk on routes. Depending on how you
weight the issues, there is a lot of room for argument, and I don't see
any easy resolutions. However, I do think #4 is important and it has been
the least mentioned in all the postings. Not just from the standpoint of
preserving access, but also because it is important to avoid being overly
self-centered as climbers.
From: rgo@druhi.att.com (Ron Olsen)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: My final chalk talk
Keywords: flagellating the moribund equine
Date: 10 Sep 92 04:24:34 GMT
Reply-To: r.g.olsen@att.com
Organization: AT&T Bell Labs, Denver CO

Some final thoughts about chalk:

1.  I am not convinced that chalk destroys the rock.
    Noted climbers such as Pat Ament and John Sherman
    strongly recommend using chalk while bouldering to
    prevent degradation of the rock from grease and sweat.

2.  I use chalk sparingly; mostly on lead, only in hotter
    weather when my hands get sweaty, mostly on climbs near
    my ability limit.

3.  I don't routinely use chalk on wet footholds; only as a last
    resort when there is no alternative and I'm facing a dangerous fall.
    I would much prefer to find an alternative sequence or grab pro to get
    by a wet spot than chalk a foothold.  Wet chalk may be worse than
    wet rock, but dry chalk is better.   Backing off, grabbing pro,
    or bypassing the wet spot are not always possible.
    
4.  I am currently experimenting with X-factor as an anti-perspirant instead
    of chalk, and have used colored chalk often in the past.

5.  I'm not fooling myself about why I use chalk and all other
    modern climbing technology:
    it let me climb more safely, more enjoyably and
    at a higher level of difficulty.

    Putting purity of style above avoiding
    probable injury is foolish and irresponsible;
    it's only a game, after all, albeit a potentially deadly one.
    The ultimate in bad style, to me, is getting yourself or
    your partner injured or killed.

    Please don't infer from this that I favor retro-bolting
    existing routes or chipping holds; I emphatically do not.

	Ron Olsen
	Boulder, Colorado
	r.g.olsen@att.com
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: sspely@uta.fi (Pekka Lylykorpi)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: HB Wales and Kamet addresses?
Date: 14 Sep 92 11:54:19 GMT
Distribution: rec
Organization: University of Tampere, Finland

My friend is starting a climbing shop and would like to get
contact with these companies too. Anybody knows their addresses
(mail, tel or fax)?

Pekka Lylykorpi

Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: ekp@mcnc.org (Edward Pavelchek)
Subject: Re: chalk
Organization: Good place for a disclaimer
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 00:43:55 GMT

More opinions on chalk - personal history - a non chalker for 9 yrs in
the NE, I succumbed to chalk my first summer in NC, I just couldn't
handle not being able to stand on builder problems I coasted through
earlier.  Not having an outstanding variety of problems available,
backing off 3 grades was not a good option.

Habit - yes, it becomes a nervous habit.  I go chalkless occasionally
and it bothers me.  In the past, I could fiddle nervously with
protection instead.  Fewer options that way now.

Liking it - modern face routes rarely have any visual line, unlike
previous cracks or aretes.  On non vertical 5.11, there is no route
visible without chalk, now that the bolts don't shine.  Perhaps some
modern climbers have become Pavlovianly conditioned to associate chalk
with climbing, chalk smears with great routes? (The more, the more
popular, the better?)

Ugly  - yes, it's ugly.  Even more so when it is overused.  I tried a
Bison ball, and have switched to making my own from the toes of
discarded panty hose, a plentiful resource.  Other socks will do.
This dries the hand, but doesn't replace the feel of the rock with the
familiar, reassuring feel of chalk. Too bad.  It does leave far less of
a trail.  Putting chalk in a sock also gets rid of these 
chalk explosions, areas where somebody dumped and covered 5
square feet in white.  Painting foot holds, or directions, or the best
point to lunge for is going way too far in my opinion. It's now
not even an unintended byproduct of climbing, but intentional
defacement. Chalk is not particularly temporary under hangs at the New,
for 10 months at JTree, or at Smith.

Adventure - after starting at the Gunks, I convinced occasional people
to go up to the Daks.  It was a very different feeling, and I became
convinced that routefinding was the problem, and the source of the
adventure, though still typically only 20 minutes from a highway.
Someone reading from Alaska is entitled to scoff, but the feeling of
adventure is where you make it, and though your mileage may vary, the
chalking and bolting of miles of cliffs reduces this dramatically.
In fact, it seems to me that sport climbing is destined for artificial
walls, since the amount of overhanging pocketed rock is pretty limited,
and sport routes get eaten up so much faster than traditional ones.

Summary - Please use chalk minimally.  Use a sock.  Don't paint, don't
dump.  Let's hope for some positive reports on X-Factor, or some
successor.  Try to see the rock.  If it's moves that really turn you
one, the best are in the gym.
-- 
Ed Pavelchek   ekp@mcnc.org
But I make a profit of 3 1/4 cents an egg by selling them for 4 1/4
cents an egg to the people in Malta I buy them from for 7 cents an egg.
Of course, *I* don't make the profit.          Joseph Heller, Catcha 22
From: j_elison@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Jeff Elison)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 20:59:48 GMT
Subject: Re: Reasons for using chalk
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Fort Collins, CO, USA
Newsgroups: rec.climbing


< lots of stuff from Bill Wright deleted >

First of all Bill, statements like "Of course!!!  What an imbecile!" and
"this idiot" don't warm me to your arguements.  This sounds like talk from
a fourth grader or a politician.

You state:
> My only point is that chalk is ugly.  That is my only gripe against it.

Then you turn around and say:
> But the marks weren't my main point.
> My point is that people use chalk to climb a higher rating.  That's all!

So at this point, you have confused me.  Which is your "only" or "main"
point?  No wonder Michael was confused.

Then we get into ego:
> I said that the reason chalk is
> used is to climb a higher number.  This is ego related.

Not necessarily.  Consider other reasons:

- I like to climb 5.11 whether it is 50 degrees or 80 degrees out.  Maybe
  that is impatient, but I've got a full-time job, a wife, and a new baby.
  I only climbed 9 days this year before last week's 9-day climbing vacation.

- I have a lot of 5.11 and 5.12 climbs on my to-do list.  I want to do them
  because they are beautiful, challenging routes.  Not because I want to
  impress Bill Wright.

- I want to challenge gravity, not my own body secretions.  Hey I was blessed
  with sweaty hands.  If I was asked the famous question "Why do you climb?",
  I wouldn't say "to overcome sweat".

- I like the consistency of grip.  I use a guidebook so that I know what I'm
  getting into.  I use good gear to decrease the chances of gear failure.
  I use chalk to decrease the chance of greasing off.

Back to your other main points.  Yes, I can climb harder routes with chalk
on some days.  Yes, it looks ugly on some rock.  Yes some climbs can be
seen by tourons who might care about chalk.


And on the lighter side, this reminds me of an old joke for smokers:

I used to use two blocks a day, but now that my hand is in a cast I've cut
way back to just one block a day!

Just a joke.  The cast has been off for 3 months and I don't (usually) use
two blocks a day.

Mort (driving to the rock is worse than chalking it!)

Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: bruceg@Cadence.COM (Bruce Gustifson)
Subject: Re: Rope condition questions
Organization: Cadence Design Systems, Inc.
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 15:36:49 GMT

In article <1992Aug28.190939.7203@ac.dal.ca> rclarke@ac.dal.ca writes:
>Is there a rapel device that dosen't twist the rope because I'm getting tired
>of unwinding my rope after every climb I do.

  A sticht plate is a device which doesn't impart much twist to the
rope. The problem with this is that most plates I've seen are made
for 2 different rope sizes. ATC should be good for this also.
************************************************************************
"Would you believe it if you     |             MY KARMA
saw it with your own eyes?"      |           JUST RAN OVER
   Asked the woman               |            YOUR DOGMA
"That depends"                   |               -Dolly Rosicrution-
    Replied I                    |	
***********************************************************************
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 23:50:10 EDT
From: jim bowers <FQV@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: Stone Mt, GA (was Atlanta Climbing)
 <eric.716591950@milton>

In article <eric.716591950@milton>, eric@milton.u.washington.edu (Eric Hirst)
says:
           a bunch of stuff about a great potential climbing area
      turned into a tacky tourist trap.

 There is a little known but potentialy great climbing area - chimney
rock NC that has also been turned into a tacky tourist trap.  A really
cool granite pinnicle that would be one of the most classic climbs in the
east has had concrete poured over the top of it, a railing surrounding
the top and a bridge from the near by cliff (it's sort of a mini lost
arrow type pinnicle) to access it.  What's really tacky is that they
have an elevator that takes you to the top of the 300 ft cliff.
The cliff itself has truely awesome climbing potential all over.
The access fund should buy the place and get local climbers to rip
out all the crap they built into this cliff - it would be money well
spent.
                              Jim Bowers
From: eao@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Ed Ogle)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 02:13:47 GMT
Subject: Guide service: IAS
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Fort Collins, CO, USA
Newsgroups: rec.climbing

Does anyone out there in notes-ville have any experience with guided trips
put on by International Alpine School in Eldroado Springs, CO?  I am 
interested in hearing about peoples experiences with them.  I am particulary
interested in their ski trips.

Thanks,
Ed		     eao@hpeseao.fc.hp.com
From: tom@afthree.as.arizona.edu (Thomas J. Trebisky)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: Ego's and Chalk, a walk down posting lane
Date: 10 Sep 92 17:38:44 GMT
Organization: University of Arizona, Tucson, AZ

brodesky@td2cad.intel.com (Michael Brodesky) writes:

>From Bills posting's this year we know he uses spider mits.

    What in the world are spider mits?

>And that he is just a 5.10 climber.
		^^^

I have to laugh!  I feel pretty good when I can lead a 5.10 pitch.
    (Actually I feel pretty good when I lead a 5.9 pitch.)

>Should we stop using camming devices beacuse they make it
>easier to do pure crack climbs.

At least it is healthy to realize that climbing is just a game
with sometimes silly rules.  I sometimes do feel I accomplish something
when I protect a pitch with only passive equipment.  (Not that I strive
to do this, it is usually in retrospect:  "Hey, I just made a no-friends
ascent of this one!").

Or the comment, "When I began climbing, back before people had friends."

On the subject of chalk, I remember following one fellow, who I think was
using an old sleeping bag stuff sack for a chalk bag.  He could
get his arm into the bag up to the elbow, clouds of chalk dust would
swirl about.

    Think about it, it will put the chalk thing in perspective.  :-)
--
	Tom Trebisky	ttrebisky@as.arizona.edu
...."There's no sense in being precise when you don't even
.... know what you're talking about." 
                       - John von Neumann
From: rob@cygnus.com (Rob Savoye)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: Climbing Matterhorn
Date: 14 Sep 92 00:51:45 GMT
Organization: Cygnus Support -- +1 415 322 3811
In-reply-to: anvick@hpscit.sc.hp.com's message of Tue, 8 Sep 1992 21:03:10 GMT

In article <51420004@hpscit.sc.hp.com> anvick@hpscit.sc.hp.com (Janet Anvick) writes:

   My husband, Scott, is looking into what it would require to climb the 
   Matterhorn.  Since we were in Switzerland this past month, he asked at
   the climbing school in Zermatt the cost of a guide.  At that time he
   was told ~$600 and a guide would be needed for each person in the party.
   I have not read rec.climbing before now.  I was wondering if anyone has
   climbed the Matterhorn and what it entailed.  My husband has just started
   to get into climbing and plans to do a lot of climbing/mountaineering 
   over the next 2 years in preparation.


When I was there in '86, a guide was ~$350 I was told. Since myself
and my climbing partner where both experienced we never considered
hiring one. I got this $$$ figure from and American Tourist. The
"Tourist" route is usually done by taking the cable car up to the
restaurant. From there it is an eay walk to the Hut. You can get a
bed/food/beer! in the hut. Most of the guided parties start around
2am. Unless you like rockfall, I suggest you start before them. It is
possible to wait until dawn and still make the climb, but with
everybody above you, it rains rocks. The best routes are from the
Italian side, which is impossible (slow) to get to from Zermatt. If
you do the "climb" itself of the tourist route it is not very
difficult. There are many bolts. At one point there is a 4ft wide
aluminum sidewalk bolted to the rock to replace a beautiful 5.8
traverse. The steep spots quite often have knotted ropes on them.

Personally, we hiked in the 12km from Zermatt to do the a north face
route but cut our climb short after getting involved in a rescue. (he
didn't make it, killed by stonefall). The scene at the Matterhorn made
me swear off Switzerland forever.It reminded me of DisneyWorld. There
are many beautiful mountains in the Alps to climb. For a real
experience I would recommend one of them instead. I'll never
understand the lull of the Matterhorn.
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: richk@tera.com (Richard Korry)
Subject: Replacing Friend Trigger
Organization: Tera Computer Company, Seattle, WA
Distribution: na
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 00:42:16 GMT


I am replacing the trigger on my #4 Friend(tm). Has anyone found a
good way to keep the metal wires that you insert into the cams from
coming out? The factory has a way to make the end slightly wider than
the hole. I replaced one a long time ago and just bent the wires but
the other method seems neater and more elegant. Any ideas?
	richard
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: mueller@isibee1 (Dani Mueller)
Subject: Re: Reasons for using chalk
Organization: Swiss Federal Institute of Technology (ETH), Zurich, CH
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 15:40:24 GMT



What's your problem about chalk? Here in Switzerland we use the
new transparent chalk. What ever the colour of the rock is, you
can't see anything.


daniel at ethz switzerland
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: ekp@mcnc.org (Edward Pavelchek)
Subject: Customs duties
Organization: Good place for a disclaimer
Distribution: na
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 20:44:58 GMT

I asked about Customs duties for goods coming into the States from
Canada, specifically MEC.  I received only one response, admitting
paying duty on ropes several years ago, on the order of 10%.  He
thought that items under $100 were duty free.

Summary:

Actual experiences
1) Some Rocks and Tricams - duty free
2) Two travel packs, ~$115 Cdn each - 25+% duty
3) Ropes, ~10%

Phone call research 
Customs 1) Polyamide items duty free
Customs 2) Plaited and braided synthetics 9%
Customs 3) Unsolicited gifts <$50 duty free

There is a 6" thick bible of customs classifications, subject to
considerable interpretation.

I don't blame MEC for not wanting to act as a source on Customs duties,
but think that a free limit might have been noted by them in the
catalog, since most of their international business must be the US.
-- 
Ed Pavelchek   ekp@mcnc.org
But I make a profit of 3 1/4 cents an egg by selling them for 4 1/4
cents an egg to the people in Malta I buy them from for 7 cents an egg.
Of course, *I* don't make the profit.          Joseph Heller, Catcha 22
From: trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU (wayne trzyna)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: Leading on 9mm?
Date: 7 Sep 92 16:38:56 GMT
Organization: Colorado State University, Computer Science Department

In article <1992Sep2.071849.28499@news.uit.no> paale@stud.cs.uit.no (Paal Ellingsen) writes:
>My question is: is it safe to lead on a single 9mm, as long as you don't get any
>long runouts? Accoording to the technical spesifications, a good 9mm can take
>more UIAA-falls than my old 10.5mm, but are there any good arguments against
>using a 9mm for leading?

Yes.  Consider sharp edges and/or abrasive surfaces.
-- 

-Wayne Trzyna
 trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: jrb@Ingres.COM (John Black)
Subject: Re: Reasons for using chalk
Keywords: save your butt
Organization: Ingres, an ASK Company, Alameda CA 94501
Date: 9 Sep 92 23:08:23 GMT

eric@milton.u.washington.edu (Eric Hirst) counter-rants:
>billw@ace.mentorg.com (Bill Wright) rants:
>
>>In that situation a fall is a possibility.  Falling is ALWAYS a possibility!
>>Chalk doesn't change that!  It just moves the grade where a fall is imminent.
>
>Chalk makes routes a little more consistent, with their guidebook grade and
>with their level of seriousness as assessed from the ground.  If I threw in
>
This is true, but whether it's desirable is another question.  Marking each
key hold with paint would make grades more consistent too because the people
with poor routefinding ability (or, as I prefer to describe myself, 
"routefindingly challenged") wouldn't be so severly disadvantaged.  Really,
though, Bill's point is still valid: chalk makes climbing easier.  Making
ratings more consistent is just an effect.

>>Why don't you just face the facts
>>that you climb with chalk so you can tick a higher number?
>
>OK, but those higher number climbs can be a lot of fun.  That's why I wear
>shoes and place pro.  I get some serious jollies when I make those "I can't
>believe I'm making these moves" moves.
>
Absolutely!  We've had these discussions for years on rec.climbing/rec.back-
country: chalk is an aid just like shoes and pro and spider mitts and topos
and beta, etc.  It's all a matter of how you choose to climb; Bill doesn't
allow himself chalk, but uses spider mitts.  I use chalk and not spider mitts.

>>Chalk is evil and ugly (Paraphrased)
>
>So are many of my climbing partners. I figure the aesthetic questions are
>moot by the time we show up anyway.
>
:-)

>was unearthed from a thick mass of lichen and moss in the first place, I
>rarely feel my wilderness ethics surging to the forefront.  Perhaps if I
>had the luxury of Yosemite over Washington, my attitude would be different.
>
You should see the Yosemite route I'm working on... :-(

>Also, my girlfriend scoffs at chalk, but she's so dainty that her hands never
>sweat.
>
This is a physical attribute; some people are luckier than others.  You are
probably taller and stronger than your girlfriend (a sexist assumption, I
realize).  Climbing is a game we play and your body is the hand you're dealt.
I ended up with a big butt and weak fingers, so I get to spend to spend my
weekends trying to haul the former up with the latter.

>I agree that it's great to get on a route with no little or no evidence of
>human activity, and am extra careful about dipping in such circumstances.
>
Sounds like we're in violent agreement.  ;-)


john//
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: scott@hpcvccl.cv.hp.com (Scott Linn)
Subject: Re: Reasons for using chalk
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 22:46:21 GMT

Has anyone tried X-Factor instead of chalk?

--

Scott Linn
scott@hpcvccl.cv.hp.com
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: billw@ace.mentorg.com (Bill Wright)
Subject: Climbing Death on Mt. Temple
Originator: billw@ace
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 19:51:35 GMT
Reply-To: bill_wright@mentorg.com
Organization: Mentor Graphics 
Keywords: 
Followup-To: 


I just heard on the radio (Paul Harvey) that some guy from Colorado
fell 4000 feet while trying to climb Mt. Temple near Lake Louise in
the Canadian Rockies.  I don't have any more information, but would
be interested in what route he was on and the circumstances.  I think
the East Ridge of this mountain is a "50 Classic Climb."


-- 
             Bill Wright / bill_wright@mentorg.com

                  "When in doubt, run it out!"
From: unger@mitem.com (Tom Unger)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: boots
Date: 6 Sep 92 05:55:59 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: MITEM Corp

In article <1992Aug31.163800.6224@morrow.stanford.edu> AS.MSW@forsythe.stanford.edu (Marc Whitney) writes:
Be sure to try on the boots with the socks you will
>wear.  Related to warmth is altitude.  Some inner boots swell a
>little at higher altitude with the result that circulation could be
>cut off.  (REI was sued about this a couple of years ago!)

The feet also swell up a little.  Becuase plastic boots are unyeilding
there is a slightly higher incident of frostbite in plastic boots than
in leather climbing boots.  Be sure they are not too tight.

Tom Unger
Newsgroups: rec.climbing