From: young@alw.nih.gov (Jeff Young)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.animals
Subject: Re: Wolves vs Men
Date: 7 Apr 92 15:58:08 GMT
Organization: National Institutes of Health, Bethesda, MD

{Excerpts from mail: 7-Apr-92 talk.politics.animals #4859.. 
young@alw.nih.gov (2920)}


{In article <1992Apr6.193729.14884@wpg.com>, russ@wpg.com (Russell 
Lawrence) writes:

|> Jeff Young writes:

jy> 2) Two deer walk into the woods.  The first is more experienced 
jy>    with the sights, sounds and smells of man, the second is not.  As 
jy>    soon as the first detects the presence of man, it freezes, points 
jy>    its ears on high, lifts its neck so as to get a better look 
jy>    around and a better smell of the air.  Seeing this, the second 
jy>    deer imitates the behavior.  If this is a false alarm, the first 
jy>    deer will lower its head and continue to browse, if not, it will 
jy>    bolt.  If it bolts, you can be sure that there is something or 
jy>    someone in the area.  As the first bolts the second will follow.  
jy>    The second has had enough time to take in the same stimuli as the 
jy>    first, and therefore, learns by example what is to be avoided in 
jy>    the woods.  

> 

> Russell Lawrence writes:

rl> Perhaps, but if the sound of gunfire is the key stimulus, how do 
rl> you account for the claim made by Mike Linan that deer are more 
rl> "fearful" at the conclusion of hunting season than at the beginning.
rl> It seems to me that deer, like horses, would become desensitized to
rl> the sound of gunfire with regular experience.
> 
From article <1992Apr6.151525.3767@nlm.nih.gov>, by 
young@alw.nih.gov (Jeff Young):

jy> The difference is "they don't shoot horses."  Deer are the
jy> targets, horses are the transportation.  To illustrate, my
jy> dog will hunt all day for me. He will stand on a bird to
jy> wing and shot.  Were I ever to take a shot at him and he
jy> knew it, he would probably not hunt with me and perhaps
jy> anyone else, again.  

> 

> Do dogs and deer have the perceptual ability to see speeding bullets?
> If not, how would a deer/dog know that you've taken a shot at them?

My dog does, he runs faster than them too.  Leaps tall...

Well, the earth moves as a bullet hits the ground in their general vicinity,
the bullet makes a loud noise on impact, it changes its trajectory and continues
on its way, and etc.  If you've ever had someone throw something at you,
say a snowball or a rock, while your back was turned you've had a similar
experience.  The object doesn't need to hit you squarely for you to know
that it was thrown, and from which direction it was thrown.


Although I haven't had cause to see this, I have read (in hunting journals)
that often when a deer cannot tell from which direction the projectile
(often an arrow) came, it will remain motionless, straining for some cue
from its surroundings.  The explanation is that the deer, not knowing 
which way to run, would rather not run towards its attacker and so will
wait for some  indication of the attackers location.


|> 
> Of course, the deer/dog might know, for a brief instant, if you hit him 
> squarely in the chest, but in such a case, "learning" is no longer
> an issue.
> 


Right.


jy> Fear of gunfire is a problem with hunting
jy> dogs, in some cases they need only associate the gunfire
jy> with something unpleasant in a single experience and may 
jy> take years to get over this fear.  
 

> How is a young deer supposed to know that another deer, elsewhere
> in the forest, has died at the sound of the bang?  How is a horse 
> supposed to know that other horses, outside their field of view,
> are not keeling over everytime a loud noise is heard?  


The same way that you would know that a fellow human had been hit
by a bullet, you wouldn't.   If that fellow human was walking some
ten to twenty yards away; you heard a loud noise and your friend 
fell, you might have an idea that you were in danger.  Deer are social
animals and often band together, traveling from feeding sight to 
feeding sight.  Even bucks will travel together outside the mating
season.  Certainly young animals spend enough time with at least
one adult to learn what dangers exist in the forest.


jy> Gunfire is a stimulus, not the key stimulus - I didn't mean
jy> to suggest that it was. 

> 
> What's the key stimulus, and how are such key stimuli presented
> to deer?


Does there need to be a key stimulus?

If there is one, I couldn't tell you what it was.  If I had to guess at
what the deer's keenest sense was, I would guess the sense of smell
followed, at some distance by the sense of hearing.  I don't believe
that a deer's vision is much better than human vision (in daylight).
> 
> -- 
> Russell Lawrence, WP Group, New Orleans (504) 443-5000
> russ@wpg.com   uunet!wpg!russ
-- 

___________	

	jy
	young@heart.dcrt.nih.gov

}


--
___________	
	jy
	young@heart.dcrt.nih.gov
Newsgroups: talk.politics.animals