HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mikel@Apple.COM (Mikel Evins)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re:  Aikido, jujutsu, aiko-jutsu, etc...
Date: 23 Nov 92 01:31:03 GMT
Organization: Apple Computer Inc., Cupertino, CA

In article <1ejvliINN6g5@male.EBay.Sun.COM> scheid@danzan.EBay.Sun.COM writes:
>
>I would suspect that most peoples have ground fighting & the like
>The real question is if there is a Chinese style which literally
>practices lots of constriction techniques on a partner as well as
>applying asundry headlocks, armlocks, leglocks and combinations
>of the three?

Well, as I say, the style we practice are not specifically
throwing styles or locking styles; rather, the various styles
have different strategic emphases, often using such techniques.
It's common in our forms practice, one-on-one technique practice,
and in sparring to see people attmpting chokes, arm-bars,
wrist-locks, flying scissors, leg-locks, arm-sweeps, foot-sweeps,
standing knee-locks, hip-throws, projections, pins, rolls,
dives, and so on.

>Still, to say that a Chinese style has some throws is not the same
>thing as getting on a Judo or Jujutsu mat and taking 50-100 throws.
>Even Karate has some throws, but the practice is pretty limited.

I dunno; over the past four weeks of our Down and Ground class
I estimate I've taken roughly 200-400 falls. On concrete without
a mat, as a matter of fact, although we have do a carpet. I
have one unpleasant bruise on my right knee, but I didn't get it
in Down and Ground class; my co-instructor executed a nasty
takedown in some Tai Chi sparring.

>So, back to my original comment; I see the relationship between what
>I term Yawara and Chin Na (they are basically one and the same except
>the Japanese have [IMO] a greater emphasis on stability). I do not know
>nor have seen any emphasis on Throws, Constrictions, and Grappling which
>is prominent in Jujutsu (Judo) in Chinese styles. I would say that 
>these Japanese arts are basically independent of Chinese styles. Any
>similiarity might be coincidental. 

That may well be.

>Indeed, many throws and constriction
>techniques are 20th Century Japanese origin. Grappling has been influenced
>by British/American catch wrestling.

As it turns out, a couple of my students are wrestlers; they
certainly help to keep Chin Na practice interesting. They also force
students to practice good technique in foot sweeps if they
ever hope to knock them down. Wrestlers seem to have quite
good balance.

Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: don@helix.nih.gov (donald seto)
Subject: book                             
Organization: National Institutes of Health, Bethesda
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 22:01:17 GMT

if anyone's interested, i just got a flyer (#RF-1) from Asian World
of Martial Arts, Inc.  selling hardback copies of musashi's
book of five rings for $10.95   215-925-1161      800-345-AWMA
 
--
don@helix.nih.gov
301-402-0580   Bldg10/Rm8D14    NIDDK/NIH       Bethesda, MD  20892
From: rtravsky@news.uwyo.edu (Rich Travsky)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Iron Palm Training
Date: 15 Nov 92 17:56:14 GMT
Organization: Banzai Institute

In article <1992Nov14.045039.23503@ucsu.Colorado.EDU>,
   fcrary@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (Frank Crary) writes:
> In article <1992Nov9.162255.21988@awdprime.austin.ibm.com>
  rob@austin.ibm.com writes:
>>If anyone has any information on Iron Palm Training ie back issues
>>of magazines, books, seminars, or legitimate instructors in the USA
>>please post the information in a followup article.
> 
> Well, since no one else seems to have a good description to offer, I
> might as well post what little I know:
> 
> The training is, apparently a combination of a herbal medicine applied to
> the palm and slapping/hitting/striking a heavy sack of rice. The intention is
> to harden and strenghten the skin of the palm, so as to increase the
> damage done to an opponent by a strike, and decrease the damage done
> to the striker's palm. I'm sure there is something I'm leaving out, 
> but...

My only reference on this topic ("Iron Palm in 100 Days", by Lee Ying-arng;
a most quaint little book) also goes into the necessities of meditation
and chi cultivation (among other odds and ends). Deviation from the proper
training can result in harmful side effects, and the book has the 
obligatory Story Of Someone Who Did It Wrong, and suffered ill health as
a result.

Rich Travsky                  Division of Information Technology
University of Wyoming         rtravsky@corral.uwyo.edu
"We tottered together upon the brink of the fall. I have some knowledge, 
however, of baritsu, or the Japanese system of wrestling...I slipped 
through his grip..."  _The Return of Sherlock Holmes_
From: princecr@mala.bc.ca
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Kicking with instep vs. ball
Date: 16 Nov 92 16:39:55 -0700
Organization: Malaspina College

In article <1992Nov14.180637.16596@relay.nswc.navy.mil>, snorthc@relay.nswc.navy.mil (Stephen Northcutt - K31) writes:
> Danny Julian writes
> 
> The reason I ask this is because alot of the people that use the 
> instep 
> use pads to prevent injuries, but pads don't exist in "actual" fights.
> 
> Hmmm.  Do take your shoes off for these "actual" fights?
> 
I usually try to use the lowwer shin rather than instep or ball of the foot. 
From experience I found that whereing the instep pads helps protect agaist
getting stomped and an elbow blocking the a round house kick that clubs the
instep.
The ball of the foot has many important applications but toes sprain easily
some times.
Blocking is also easier with the shin that with the instep or the ball.

chris.
From: turini@gdls.CSCTMD.COM (Bill Turini - CSC @ GDLS)
Subject: Tournament & Business Software
Keywords: Tai Kwan Do, software, karate
Organization: Computer Sciences Corp. @ General Dynamics
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 12:19:20 GMT

I have recently become involved with a local Tai Kwan Do studio whose main
goal is to teach students in an attempt to keep them off drugs, etc.  This
is an almost non-profit company and we parents have formed a "booster club"
in an attempt to better the organization.  We currently have 500+ students
in all classes.  

We are badly in need of software to manage the tournaments and the studio
business.  I would like to find something already written in an "open"
language, e.g. Paradox, DBIV, etc. so that I can customize it, if necessary.

If need be, I'll end up writing something with the instructors help.  But
it would be faster if we could get something off the shelf.

Any leads to a software package, or ideas, would be a great help.  Please
mail directly, as I don't frequent this group.

Thanks in advance, and sorry if this is in a FAQ, just point me to it.

Bill

+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Bill Turini			           Chief, Technical Systems Support   |
|									      |
| Computer Sciences Corporation   		turini@gdls.csctmd.com	      |
| Technology Management Division					      |
| MZ 435-02-33		                                                      |
| 6000 E. 17 Mile Road                          (313) 825-8810 Voice          |
| Sterling Heights, MI 48313			(313) 825-8764 FAX	      |
|       "Doing the right thing is more important than doing it right."        |
|                            R. Wamsley, 1991                                 |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
-- 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Bill Turini			           Chief, Technical Systems Support   |
|									      |
| Computer Sciences Corporation   		turini@gdls.csctmd.com	      |
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: akif@sequent.com (Aki Fleshler)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Determining the winner of a "friendly" inter-arts duel.
Keywords: inter-arts sparring
Date: 16 Nov 92 16:52:21 GMT
Article-I.D.: sequent.1992Nov16.165221.19867
Organization: Sequent Computer Systems Inc.

In article <1992Nov15.133056.20661@ms.uky.edu> taddiken@ms.uky.edu (scott taddiken) writes:
...
>I certainly hope the "Getting to grappling range" thread doesn't die right
>away.  Todd titilated me by saying that some Chinese styles have very clever
>ways of closing the gap while receiving minimal punishment.  I'd be very
>interested to hear about some of those methods.  Also, do aikidoka agree with
>Todd's assertion that the aikido methods of getting into grappling range are
>so specifically oriented to aikido techniques that they would not be
>particularly useful to, say, an Olympic wrestler who finds himself in a
>fistfight?  
	
	No, I don't.

> Precisely what technique do you think might be helpful?

	The way I see it, all of the "aikido methods of getting into grappling 
	range" amount to little more than [sic] making body-to-body contact
	whilst neutralizing the opponent's striking potential (either by
	stuffing it or by guiding it out of harm's way). Body-to-body contact
	here can include strikes and slams as well as grabs and throws. True, 
	there are some very style-specific taisabaki (evasive movements), with
	footwork as fussy as you wanna be; but in essence they are simply 
	either direct or turning movements, and in the kind of combat 
	we're discussing, the precise kata of most dojo practice could give 
	way to a more adaptive style (i. e., suitable for "an Olympic 
	wrestler who finds himself in a fistfight").

-- 
Aki Fleshler                                  * akif@sequent.com
Sequent Computer Systems Inc.                 * (503) 578-4570
15450 SW Koll Parkway, RHE2-775               * FAX (503) 578-7569
Beaverton OR 97006-6063                       *
From: burdickd@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Dakin Burdick)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: 10th Dan & Badass Karate Bullshit
Date: 15 Nov 92 22:10:34 GMT
Article-I.D.: usenet.Bxs2xn.AC7
Organization: Indiana University

Regarding older martial artists...

I have met several older instructors who have back or knee injuries
that don't allow them to practice the arts they love (my own
instructor, for example) but they remain a wellspring of knowledge.
I'm currently writing my dissertation on the martial arts and I've
compiled a 180 page bibliography of the arts, so every once in a while
I think I'm pretty studly in the amount of m.a. knowledge my brain
contains.  Then I go talk to my instructor and he STILL is able to
teach me.  After all, he's studied martial arts for 30 years, three
times as long as me, and I still have a ways to go before I match
him.  I find the fact that he and other older martial artists are
still working out to be very inspiring.  I certainly believe
older martial artists deserve our respect, not only for their
accomplishments but also for what they can teach us.

Now if I were to get into a fight with one of these guys (why?),
and they were stupid enough to fight me unarmed (unlikely) in
a fair and open fight (even more unlikely and stupid), then I
could probably beat him.  There are a few fortunate souls who
manage to preserve their health/strength/speed into old age
(Sig Kufferath comes to mind), and I might have more trouble
with them.  But I still think that my instructor could whup me
(I live in Indiana; "whup" is Hoosier for "defeat", derived from
the Old American, "whip"; ie. "I whipped him.") if he used a 
weapon, and I think he could find a suitable weapon fairly easily
in a street environment (If not, he could always use a kubotai
or a cane).

Comments?

Dakin
burdickd@silver.ucs.indiana.edu
From: mikel@Apple.COM (Mikel Evins)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re:  Aikido, jujutsu, aiko-jutsu, etc...
Date: 23 Nov 92 18:39:24 GMT
Organization: Apple Computer Inc., Cupertino, CA

In article <4253@unisql.UUCP> wrat@unisql.UUCP (wharfie) writes:
>In article <74585@apple.apple.COM> mikel@Apple.COM (Mikel Evins) writes:
>>and in sparring to see people attmpting [...] flying scissors, leg-locks, 
>>standing knee-locks, [...] dives, and so on.
>
>	How do you practice these techniques safely?

It depends on what kind of practice you are talking about.
Take the flying scissors as an example. In the down and ground
class we begin by showing students how to slowly maneuver into
position to apply the scissors (it turns out that, in terms
of physics, this is actually quite a bit more difficult than
just hurling yourself into the technique, but it's a lot
easier psychologically). They start out supporting the scissors
on a willing opponent with both hands on the ground. The
person receiving the technique is learning how to fall in the
technique while acting as the attacker's crash dummy. We gradually
work our way up to applying the scissors by jamming the opponent's
guard as we jump into position. The worst injury I've seen
so far in this practice is a very slight bruise on an attacker's hip,
and a slight bruise on a 'crash dummy's' (padded) elbow.

Later in one-on-one waza-style practice, students will more-or-less
reproduce this approach. In free-sparring we keep a correlation between
the student's advancement and the intensity of sparring. Beginners
start out sparring, but at half speed or less, and the only allowed
contact is for foot sweeps, grabs, and deflections. As students
advance, they begin to try more of these techniques, their
skill and coordination improves, and they are working with 
people who are better at defending and at falling.

The worst injuries I've ever heard of in the system were a dislocated
shoulder from a trapped punch, a foot sweep that landed
its receiver on his head, and a broken leg when a large, strong
student tried to stop a smaller, but more experienced student's
sweep. I can't think of any other serious injuries at all in
all the time since 1981 that I've been associated with the system.
Much more common are jammed toes and fingers.
From: cobra@ziggys.cts.com (Ron Lee)  619/262-6384
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Kicking with instep vs. ball
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 92 23:43:20 PST
Distribution: world
Organization: Ziggy's Den Of Iniquity, East of East SD CA

princecr@mala.bc.ca writes:

} > 
} > Use of the shin (as I've seen in only a couple posts--I'll have to try it 
} > next Tuesday night) will spread that energy over an even wider area.
} > 
} > Again, as the cliche' around her goes: "It depends on what you're trying 
} > to accomplish."
} > 
} > Best Bet:  Experiment--see what's right for YOU
} > 
} 	It's true that it depends on what your trying to accomplish.
} but about this area stuff,  the Tiba's crosssection is triangular (more or
} less) The impact area using the shin will be less than the impact area of the
} instep.
} 
} chris.
} 


Thank you.

I Think I stand corrected--physiologically....
However, my contention is that the practitioner using the shin
is using a greater _length_ of an extremity, along the run of the shin
as opposed to the smaller length of the instep (from ankle toward the 
toes).

I didn't really think about the protruding shape of the shin though.

Then again, the instep (as I stare at mine now) looks kinda like a 
lopsided triangle, too.  And if you kick with the knob of the first 
toe-bone (some-kind-of tarsus?) does that acheive a relatively
equal point as the shin?

Sorry if this gets into another thread.....


              cobra@ziggys.cts.com - BBS (619)262-6384
                 Ziggy's Den Of Iniquity
From: david@xlnt.com (David Johnson)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Hsing I Kung Fu
Date: 16 Nov 92 17:56:09 GMT
Article-I.D.: xlnt.1247
Organization: XLNT Designs, Inc (XDI)

In article <1992Nov6.185306.3511@seas.gwu.edu>, yfkimura@seas.gwu.edu (Yusuke F. Kimura) writes:
> 	I've always been interested: what's the real difference between the >so-called "hard" martial arts, and the "soft" ones, like Hsing I or Tai Chi or >even Aikido?

What is so soft about xing yi?  At my school, we strike, kick, throw and
joint lock with speed and power.  We do a lot of strength and endurance
conditioning also.  My teacher grew up and learned in Taiwan and said
the xing yi practice there is much more rigorous than what he puts
us through.  Some of the senior students are even
preparing for a full contact tournament to be held in Taiwan.

Again, what is so "soft" about xing yi?

-- 
David Johnson
XLNT Designs, Inc. (XDI)
david@xlnt.com
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: yy@cbnews.cb.att.com (alan.j.lapenn)
Subject: Re: Humor, at NH tournament
Organization: AT&T
Distribution: na
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 11:25:17 GMT
Summary: yup funny commercial name it is.

Ya, that's what it is.



In article <BxtMy9.87n@max.physics.sunysb.edu>, gene@max.physics.sunysb.edu (Eugene Tyurin) writes:
> In article <1992Nov16.105548.7064@cbnews.cb.att.com> yy@cbnews.cb.att.com (alan.j.lapenn) writes:
> >
> >I was at the Northern Shaolin Karate Assn. tournament  in Concord, NH this 
>                        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
-- 
Alan LaPenn      att!mvuxd!yy          .signature not found!
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: bburgar@cix.compulink.co.uk (Bill Burgar)
Subject: What are the purposes of Forms ?
Reply-To: bburgar@cix.compulink.co.uk
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1992 13:05:00 +0000

Hitesh C. Patel (phd07@uk.ac.keele.seq1) writes:
>Hi!,
>         I have not been reading this group regularly.
>So apologies if this question has been discussed before.
>        Basically, I want to know what are the purposes of forms ?.
>I do not see why there is so much emphasis on them. How can it help someones
>ability as a martial artist ?. Finally, how should one perform a form ?.
>That is, do you picture an oponent in front of you while performing ?.
>


The forms act as a library for the techniques of a style. They are practiced
in sequence so that all of the techniques are remembered. The way they
are practiced now in most places around the world means that they are
devalued because the techniqes from the kata are not practiced individually
against an opponent. Initially, you will be taught simple applications
for the movements so that you can learn to visualise the opponent properly.
As you progress you will learn more effective applications. When you
perform a kata, sometimes you should think of an opponent other times you
should concentrate on your technique.


Bill Burgar.
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: ek@patty.gud.siemens.co.at (Ernst Krudl)
Subject: Re: Chi
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 08:25:59 GMT
Organization: SIEMENS Austria Corp., A-1100 Wien, Gudrunstr. 11
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5

According to my teacher Taiji and Qigong always should match the
following pattern:
Idea, breathing, movement.
Example: wave, wind, movement of water.
(Not or maybe serious: First you have the idea to post, then you breath
astonishingly at the information, and then you move to post yourself).
First of all is the idea, and most important, weak idea, weak practise.
Secondly: breathing watching/control is always involved, as a main source
of moving/transforming Qi.
Third: a strong idea and coordinated breathing always creates movement
of Qi (Ki in Jap., Prana in India), movement may be inner or/and outer.

Lawrence Galante has an article in his book on TAICHI on the
simmilarities of Yoga and Taijiquan. Breathing control and coordination
with movement is one of them. Developing of Qi/Ki/Prana is another.



Ernst Krudl, Vienna, Austria (ek@patty.gud.siemens.co.at)

Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: Andy Hudson (a908301@tiuk.ti.com)
Subject: What are the purposes of forms ?
Organization: Texas Instruments
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 15:59:47 GMT

phd07@keele.ac.uk (H.C. Patel) Writes:
>Basically, I want to know what are the purposes of forms ?. 
>I do not see why there is so much emphasis on them. How can it help someones
>ability as a martial artist ?.

I study Tang Soo Do which is a traditional art and incorporates
many forms. I see the forms as a way of developing a students
balance, and helps them to "get the feel" for the various 
techniques. I've also found that forms help the student to 
control their breathing. I found that when I first began doing
forms I was getting out of breath by the end of each form. You
begin to learn how to control your breathing thus conserving 
energy, this will also benefit you when sparring.
 
>Finally, how should one perform a form ?.
>That is, do you picture an oponent in front of you while performing ?.

Yes, I find the best way to perform a form is to imagine there is an opponent
in front of you. 

---
Andy Hudson (a908301@server1.tiuk.ti.com)

    - NE TE CONFUNDANT ILLEGITIMI ! -
From: aaron@cse.ucsc.edu (Aaron Emigh)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: subject
Date: 20 Nov 92 19:56:20 GMT
Organization: University of California, Santa Cruz (CE/CIS Boards)
NNTP-Posting-Host: oak.ucsc.edu

In article <memo.758371@cix.compulink.co.uk> bburgar@cix.compulink.co.uk writes:
[...]
>I think you will find reading Jack Dempsey's (world boxing champ) most
>interesting. He developed what he called the Jolting punch and it is 
>exactly as you have described. I can't remember the name of the book
>but I'm sure you should be able to order it at your local bookshop.

The book is called, if memory serves, "Championship Fighting: Explosive
Punching and Aggressive Defense."  I think the publisher is Centerline
Press.  It's an informative book, definitely of interest to karateka.

>Bill Burgar.

Aaron Emigh
aaron@iit.com
aaron@cse.ucsc.edu
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: stark@dwovax.enet.dec.com (Todd I. Stark)
Subject: Re: question about history of different styles
Summary: A quick answer
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Date: 18 NOV 92 15:16:56    


gamiddle@math.uwaterloo.ca (Guy Middleton) writes...
>I'm trying to get some understanding of the differences in approach, and the
>history of, jujutsu, aiki-jujutsu, aikido, and judo.  As far as I can tell,
>they all are derived ultimately from jujutsu, but I'm not sure of how modern
>versions of each are related.

Hard to generalize today about either lineage or principles.  Martial arts
in the U.S., for example is like a supermarket of styles.  Some modern styles 
are related simply by having copied from each other, or from an older ryu, and 
others are variations derived from the same root ryu.  Judo and Aikido come 
from different traditional styles, Aikido having been Morihei Ueshiba's 
synthesis of his learning and largely Daito-Ryu, and Judo having been Jigoro 
Kano's synthesis from a wide variety of popular 19th century jujutsu schools.  

Most Aikijutsu/Aiki-jujutsu is more or less derived from the Daito-Ryu,
or other practices of the tradition popularly attributed to the Takeda
lineage.  

>In any case, it would be great if somebody who knows all these styles would
>like to comment.

I have no such claim to knowledge, this is just information I've picked
up from casual research.  No doubt parts are open to different interpretation.

							kind regards,

							todd
+-------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Todd I. Stark				  stark@dwovax.enet.dec.com |
| Digital Equipment Corporation		             (215) 354-1273 |
| Philadelphia, Pa. USA                                             |
|    'Reason is no substitute for Passion, nor Passion for Reason.' |
+-------------------------------------------------------------------+
From: robinson@cogsci.Berkeley.EDU (Michael Robinson)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: some questions
Date: 17 Nov 1992 21:30:51 GMT
Organization: Institute of Cognitive Studies, U.C. Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: cogsci.berkeley.edu

In article <41113@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> ph2sct@sdcc14.ucsd.edu (Dzu Nguyen) writes:
>also they both have the same opinions of other arts namely they see their
>own art as the best....it has gotten to the point where they cannot talk to
>each other about martial arts without quarrelling.

Well, then I guess they need to grow up.

>i would appreciate it if somebody could help me out! this problem is
>not going to escalate but it isn't helping their friendship out and
>it is impossible to talk with them (i've tried many times).

You probably have to wait for them to grow up.



-- 
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Michael Robinson                          UUCP:   ucbvax!cogsci!robinson
                                        INTERNET: robinson@cogsci.berkeley.edu