HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: clavazzi@nyx.cs.du.edu (The_Doge)
Subject: Re: Heeere Doggy! (was Re: Last word on First name - Watson's)
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 93 22:41:30 GMT

In article <watson.726420350@space.sce.carleton.ca> watson@sce.carleton.ca (Stephen Watson) writes:
>ewadams@netcom.com (Ernest Adams) writes:
>> [Watson] kept a bull pup.
>
>I believe this is stated during his initial meeting with Holmes.  Is
>the animal ever mentioned again in the Canon?  Where did he keep it?
>It doesn't seem to have lived in their rooms at Baker St.
	As far as I know, Watson's pet is never mentioned again.  Perhaps it
ran away during the move?
The_Doge
From: mfh@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (mitchell.hansinger)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.holmes
Subject: Dates for the Holmes stories
Date: 6 Jan 93 14:34:06 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: AT&T


I would like to get a list of dates for all of the Holmes stories.  I would
like to know both the date it was written by Doyle and the date the story
was supposed to have taken place.  Also, if the date the story occurred is
figured from elements in the story itself, I would like to see the pieces that
were used to derive that date.

Please post this for all.

Thanks,

-Mitchel
From: ggg9y@poe.acc.Virginia.EDU (Garth G. Groff)
Subject: Re: _Punch_ and _The Sherlock Holmes Scrapbook_
Organization: University of Virginia
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 13:03:17 GMT

DOYLE AND PUNCH

An interesting fact to add to the mention of PUNCH is 
that Richard Doyle, ACD's uncle, was a principle 
illustrator with the magazine for many years.  After
he left PUNCH in a dispute over principles, Richard
Doyle enjoyed a successful career as a freelance
illustrator.

~S
--
Garth (Haridas) Groff
"Not yet famous author"
ggg9y@poe.acc.virginia.EDU         Chant "Govinda Bohlo Hare"
From: sharp@mizar.usc.edu (Malcolm Sharp)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.holmes
Subject: Re: Titles for all of the stories
Date: 12 Jan 93 15:11:50 GMT
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: mizar.usc.edu

You indicated these stories were available 'online'.  Where?
mss
Newsgroups: alt.fan.holmes
From: lafemina@acpy01.att.com (Tom LaFemina (CXNIXPT1))
Subject: Electronic Holmes
Organization: AT&T IMS - Piscataway, NJ (USA)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 14:51:09 GMT



I'm new to this group so excuse me if this question has been asked
already. Is there an ftp site that has electronic versions of all
the Holmes stories? If so I'd appreciate any info about it. Thanks.

--Tom


Newsgroups: alt.fan.holmes
From: misrael@csi.uottawa.ca (Mark Israel)
Subject: Re: Last word on First name - Watson's
Organization: Dept. of Computer Science, University of Ottawa
Distribution: na
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 93 18:45:07 GMT

In article <1993Jan8.170122.9668@cbfsb.cb.att.com>, mfh@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (mitchell.hansinger) writes:

>> Yes, Conan Doyle had a real-life friend named James Watson.
>
> This is a curious tidbit that I didn't know about.  Can you cite 
> some sources so we can investigate this?

   He's mentioned in a footnote to "The Man with the Twisted Lip"
in _The Annotated Sherlock Holmes_.  He should also be in the index
to many biographies of Conan Doyle.

misrael@csi.uottawa.ca			Mark Israel
Sunbeams brightly play, where Fancy's fair pavilion once is pight.
Newsgroups: alt.fan.holmes
From: ewadams@netcom.com (Ernest Adams)
Subject: Re: Last word on First name - Watson's
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 19:35:43 GMT

I suspect that the equation of "James" with the Scots "Hamish" is
W.S. Baring-Gould's reason for choosing "Hamish" as Watson's
middle name.

As I recall, however, the scene in "The Man with the Twisted Lip"
is one of considerable excitement -- they were jarred out of
late evening relaxation by the arrival of a very distressed woman.
As a proper housewife, Mrs. Watson would naturally be rather
flustered at receiving a visitor at such an hour.

Could it be that Mrs. Watson was having an affair, and in the
tension of the moment accidentally mentioned the name of her lover
rather than her husband? Perhaps she was thinking of him at the time.

The difficulty with this is that Watson was almost certainly a good
husband: caring, compassionate, and always checked with his wife before
gallivanting off with Holmes. On the other hand, we do know that he was,
by his own admission, lazy; smoked foul tobacco; and kept a bull pup.
Between these and this tendency of his to run off with that misogynist
friend Holmes at the slightest provocation, it *might* drive a woman
to seek a lover.

Could it be that one of the Mrs. Watsons did not die, but was (horrors)
DIVORCED by Watson?
From: misrael@csi.uottawa.ca (Mark Israel)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.holmes
Subject: _The Sherlock Holmes Scrapbook_
Date: 13 Jan 93 03:55:06 GMT
Organization: Dept. of Computer Science, University of Ottawa

In article <1993Jan12.132528.15943@cbfsb.cb.att.com>, mfh@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (mitchell.hansinger) writes:

>> [The Scrapbook is] A collection of early-20th-Century newspaper and 
>> magazine articles and ads about Holmes.  Edited by Peter Haining.  
>> It's a pretty good read.
>
> Are these articles and ads real ones which appeared in real newspapers

   Yes.

> Can you tell us more, it sounds rather interesting.

   Well, there's a serious pastiche called "The Adventure of the First-
Class Carriage" by Ronald Knox; the obituary I already mentioned; pieces
of literary criticism; an interview with Harry Baskerville (whose name
Conan Doyle appropriated for _The Hound of the Baskervilles_); letters
that people wrote to newspapers under Sherlockian pseudonyms; ads using
Sherlock to sell everything from travellers' cheques to razor blades....

misrael@csi.uottawa.ca			Mark Israel
Sunbeams brightly play, where Fancy's fair pavilion once is pight.
From: chrisley@oxford.ac.uk (Ronald L Chrisley)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Elven Anatomy
Date: 4 Jan 93 15:38:58 GMT
	<1993Jan1.064511.27715@dartvax.dartmouth.edu>
	<1993Jan4.015238.18695@leland.Stanford.EDU>
Organization: School of Cognitive & Computing Sciences, Univ. of Sussex
In-reply-to: alderson@cisco.com's message of 4 Jan 93 01:52:38 GMT


Couldn't one answer this question by looking at Tolkien's own drawings
of elves, e.g., on the cover of the Two Towers?  I'm not sure if that
one shows ears or not, but some of his drawings must...


--
Ronald L. Chrisley  ronc@cogs.susx.ac.uk
COGS, University of Sussex
Falmer, Brighton, BN1 9QH, UK
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: bergland@edb.uib.no (Magne Bergland)
Subject: Re: Music based on the ring
Organization: University of Bergen
Distribution: alt
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 14:37:31 GMT

In article <ROLAND.93Jan3152551@helicon.sics.se> roland@sics.se (Roland Karlsson) writes:

>There is a very good instrumental record based on the tale of the
>ring.  It is called "Sagan om Ringen" (Swedish for "Tale of The Ring")
>and is written by Bo Hansson.  Bo and som other is performing.  The
>record is released by Silence Records and has the number SRS 4600.
>Maybe hard to get for you foreigners, but it is good.

This was released internationally in the seventies (on the Charisma label) 
under the title "Music inspired by JRR Tolkien's The Lord of the Rings", and 
it shouldn't be wholly impossible to find second-hand copies, at least in 
Europe. 

I doubt if the new CD edition (which also includes some tracks from 
his earlier record "The magician's hat" ("Ur trollkarlens hatt")), and - 
allegedly - is remixed) is available outside Sweden. I have got the address 
of the record company (in Sweden) if anybody would be interested in trying 
to order it. 

I agree it's good!

 - Magne

Magne Bergland                             Bergland@edb.uib.no
Computing Centre, University of Bergen     TEL: +47 5 54 42 15
Edb-senteret, HiB, 5020 Bergen, Norway     FAX: +47 5 54 42 99
From: damiens@cco.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Bombadil
Date: 6 Jan 1993 07:04:03 GMT
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
NNTP-Posting-Host: punisher.caltech.edu

	Personally, I got the idea that T.B. was created with the world
with the song of the Ainur, but I don't think there is any concrete evidence.
But he did say that he was older than elf or acorn in _Fellowship_!

	As for free will, in the Silmarillion I believe it was said that
all things were bound by the Song of the Ainur -- the Doom of the Ainur and
Elves.  Except that the Gift of Men was precisely that they had the power
to break Doom and do things unexpected.  If halflings were human-relations
snuck in by Eru later on they might have shared that gift, therefore their
later significance.  I specifically recall that Men were doomed to die
precisely because they had enough free will to break Doom, and Eru didn't
want any specific man hanging around too long knowing that they would 
probably do nasty things with their gift.

	One thing that bothered me about the creation power of Darkness:
it is almost explicitly said that orcs are twisted elves, and therefore can 
breed, inheriting that ability from the Firstborn.  But what about trolls
and dragons?  If Melkor lacked access to the Secret Fire they should not
have been able to breed, only to be created individually by Melkor with his
own essence.  But dragons most definitely did breed!

			-- Damien R. Sullivan  [X-) Kiljoy]
42 | AIXELSYD | Phoenix (Brand shall return to Amber!) | Neo-anarchy now!
Just because it's been done before doesn't mean it's right. | "Nee!"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: 003166j@axe.acadiau.ca (JASON WILLIAM JARVIS)
Subject: Re: Bombadil
Organization: Acadia University
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 18:26:49 GMT

     I've been checking in every few days or so, specifically to follow the 
course of the discussion on the nature of jolly old Tom Bombadil, and I must 
say, it's raised my eyebrows.  While not quite as studied on Tolkien as 
probably 75 % of the other posters, one thing has repeatedly kicked me in 
the head - who cares what Bombadil is, or what, or who, he represents? The 
works of Tolkien are so enchanting because once you let yourself go, you 
become a being of Middle-Earth.  Why bother and to try and figure out why   
he's there, he just IS.  At times I've wondered whether I was studying a 
text from the Reformation, or a discussion on Bombadil.  Enjoy the figure of 
Bombadil for what he is, a mysterious character that provides an interesting 
aside to the journey of the hobbits.

Jason W. Jarvis
History Department
Acadia University
Wolfville, N.S.
Canada
From: rjs@citi.umich.edu (Robert J. Skrobola)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Gandalf as Olorin (was Re: Bombadil etc.)
Date: 8 Jan 1993 19:44:22 GMT
Organization: Center for Information Technology Intergration, University of Michigan
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: bodwin.citi.umich.edu

In article <MVOORHIS.92Dec31174735@granite.WPI.EDU>, mvoorhis@granite.WPI.EDU (Michael C Voorhis) writes:

|> The Unfinished Tales name Saruman as the Maia Curumo.  It is in the section

Actually, Saruman did not die. He has survived through the 4th, 5th,
and 6th age, and is the governor of New York. Might even get named to
the Supreme Court! 
			Rob



-- 
-----------------------------------------------------
Rob Skrobola      Institutional File Server Project
Normal Disclaimer: I speak only for myself
-----------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: schere@aix.rpi.edu (Mithrandir)
Subject: Re: Hobbits (was Re: Bombadil), and Maiar/N
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy, NY
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 03:07:13 GMT

As someone has already pointed out, there are various levels of power within
an 'order' such as the Maiar.  Some of the fire spirits were perverted, and 
became Balrogs.  Other maiar became cool like Sauron and Gandalf and Melian.
It is said in Unfinished Tales that Olorin first refused to go to Middle Earth
as he was weaker than Sauron and feared him.  

Also, and I am not sure where, Tolkien himself discusses the number and 
power of Balrogs.  In the Fall of Goldolin, there were hordes of them, yet
later Tolkien says there were only a few.  Obviously, the power of  a Balrog
depends on when the story it was in was written.    

Namarie,
Mithrandir

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Many are my names in many countries.  Mithrandir among the Elves, Tharkun to 
the Dwarves; Olorin I was in my youth in the West that is forgotten, in the 
South Incanus, in the North Gandalf; to the East I go not.
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: heinr@sci.kun.nl (Hein Ragas)
Subject: Yet again ICE!
Keywords: ICE
Organization: University of Nijmegen, The Netherlands
X-Newsreader: NN version 6.4.19
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 15:42:43 GMT

Remember the discussion a few weeks back about ICE's so-called
"fact-making" policiies? I dug up a MERP-module of them, "Riders of Rohan".
In this module is a specific "disclaimer", that is, to my knowledge,
included in _all_ MERP-modules and scenarios that ICE has published.

Here follows the actual text of the "disclaimer" :

     "Professor Tolkien's Legacy
      Each mosule is based on extensive research and attempts to meet
      the high standards associated with the Tolkien legacy. Rational
      linguistic, cultural, and geological data are employed. Interpretive
      material has been included with great care, and fits into defined pat-
      terns and schemes. ICE does not intend it to be the sole or proper
      view; instead, we hope to give the reader the thrust of the creative
      processes and the character of the given area.
      Remember that the ultimate sources of information are the works
      of Professor J.R.R. Tolkien. Posthumous publications edited by his
      son Christopher shed additional light on the world of Middle-earth.
      These modules are derived from _The Hobbit_ and _The Lord of the
      Rings_, although they have been developed so that no comflict exists
      with any of the other sources."

Unfortunately, this is included in the Guidelines, the part that everyone skips.
But, to my standards, ICE can make better guesses than I can, and I gleefully
accept anything they say as being part true, and part a guess which is better
than I can make one. 8)

Food for thought?

            Hein

Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: maclean@cs.mcgill.ca (Matthew SAMS)
Subject: re: Mushroom Thief
Organization: SOCS - Mcgill University, Montreal, Canada
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 17:14:23 GMT

I think that the whole point of this discussion is whether or not
stories which are orthogonal to the genre of Tolkien are suitable
for a.f.t. Personally, I feel that they are not.  It is not a question
of censoring a story but of submitting the story to an appropriate
newsgroup to which almost all readers of a.f.t may subscribe if they
so wish.

BTW, I have been enjoying tremendously all other threads in this
newsgroup.  I find that the signal to noise ratio is very high.


Matthew Sams				School of Computer Science
Jr. Systems Programmer			McGill University
maclean@cs.mcgill.ca			Montreal, CANADA
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: kelsey@jupiter.SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Mike Kelsey)
Subject: Re: Q: 'Illustrated Encyc. of Middle Earth' available?
Organization: Stanford Linear Accelerator Center
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 16:15:05 GMT

In article <1993Jan4.015148.18356@leland.Stanford.EDU>, alderson@cisco.com (Rich Alderson) writes:

[ ... about David Day's book; deleted ... ]
|> 
|> It's a re-working of his (late 70's) _A Tolkien Bestiary_, adding the
|> information from writings later than _The Silmarillion_.
|> 
|> Interesting, if mostly because it sometimes puts into a single entry things
|> which are scattered throughout the texts.  In other ways, it's irritating--
|> pointy-eared Hildebrant-style elves and the like.
|> 
|> Too bad it's in expensive hardcover.

It isn't just in hardcover.  I received a paperback edition (copyright 1991)
for Christmas.  (I also got the _Atlas_, which I found _much_ superior).
					-- Mike Kelsey

[  My opinions are not endorsed by SLAC, Caltech, or the US government  ]
"I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.  Attack ships on fire off
the shoulder  of Orion.   I've watched  C-beams glitter in  the darkness
near the Tannhauser Gate.  All these memories will be lost in time, like
tears in the rain."  -- Roy Batty
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 14:42:03 EST
From: Mumbles <JXD132@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Entish appearance in Silmarillion

Also, after Yavanna sees the need Aule's dwarves will have for wood,
she fears for her creations.  In consultation with Manwe, she says
the animals can run and protect themselves, but the plants can.  So they
(I would guess with Eru's help) make the "sheperds of trees".

--Jim
From: damm@diku.dk (Kristian Damm Jensen)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Galadriel at kinslaying
Date: 8 Jan 93 15:55:21 GMT
Organization: Department of Computer Science, U of Copenhagen

mvoorhis@granite.WPI.EDU (Michael C Voorhis) writes:

>In article <1icfpoINN8m6@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> ses2@po.CWRU.Edu (S. E. Stansfield) writes:
>>Some things seem to be evident though:
>[ ... ]
>>2) She was present at the kinslaying but was not a participant, this is the
>>reason that she was banned from Valinor.
>she did participate, in the defence of the swan-ships against the sons of
>Feanor, I think.

>>3) It is unclear wether she went with Feanor to middle earth or followed
>>Fingolfin.
>I believe she went with Fingolfin.  She didn't get along too well with Feanor,
>and went to Middle Earth for her own reasons.

If you wnat to resolve the story of Galadriel, you have to ask: What
version? Galadriel role changed very much in the development of the
history of Middle Earth. Yes, in teh earlier versions (those most
present in the Silmarillion) she went with Fingolfin and met Celeborn
in Doriath, later she met the newly arrived Celebron at Alqualonde and
left with him in his ship. But never did she side with Feanor.
-- 
Kristian Damm Jensen (damm@diku.dk)
"Life is like a sewer - what you get out of it depends on what you put into it"
- Tom Lehrer
From: laurence@cco.caltech.edu (Dustin Lee Laurence)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: New Story: Mushroom Thief
Date: 5 Jan 1993 22:03:29 GMT
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
NNTP-Posting-Host: sandman.caltech.edu

jchokey@leland.Stanford.EDU (James Alexander Chokey) writes:

>In article <C09Ds1.J2v@umassd.edu> s13989bc@UMASSD.EDU writes:
>>	In my personal opinion the mushroom thief story belongs in
>>alt.sex.stories or other such stomping grounds for ths kind of garbled filth.
>>Tolkien didn't create a world of bestialist and perverted hobbits.
>>Please excuse the very biased and tempermental form of this posting,
>>but Maggot was not a creep, and Tolkien's stories deserve more respect
>>than that which was given. Please don't demean him, his tales, the other
>>readers, or yourself with this insidious attack on a morally uplifting
>>chronicle.

>	This was a work of fan-fiction based on a character created by 
>Tolkien and it is certainly appropriate in a Tolkien fan newsgroup--  at
>least until such a time as we create a seperate alt.tolkien.fanfic.  Just
>because you found the story not to your taste does not give you the right
>to say that it is not appropriate here.  The story was not to my taste
>either, I'm certainly not trying to pretend it's not an appropriate posting
>for a group devoted to Tolkien fandom.  Please don't demean _us_ by setting
>yourself up as the Tribunal of Newsgroup Purity and declaring that certain
>types of postings do not belong here simply because you don't like them.

>	--  Jim C. <jchokey@leland.stanford.edu>

Sorry, Jim; I entirely agree with him, except more strongly.  That story was
no more appropriate here than anti-semetic rhetoric would be in a newsgroup
devoted to (and pro-) Judaism or a burning cross would be on public property.
People do have rights, as you note, but one of them is the right to exclude
offensive material.  The KKK may have the right to march and demonstrate, but
they don't have the right to surround someone else's home in doing so, or
harass people who do not wish to be harassed.

-- 
Dustin Laurence       "As sensitive and broad-minded humans, we must never
                       allow ourselves to be in any way judgmental of the
laurence@alice         religious practices of other people, even when these
caltech.edu           people clearly are raving space loons." -- Dave Barry
From: laurence@cco.caltech.edu (Dustin Lee Laurence)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Breeding Dragons (was Re: Bombadil)
Date: 8 Jan 1993 21:04:02 GMT
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
NNTP-Posting-Host: sandman.caltech.edu

pvs9@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (Praktikum Verteilte Systeme) writes:

>IMHO, orcs can breed as they are perverted children of Iluvatar.  Trolls,
>however, are perhaps no true living things, but animated stone figures.  (They
>don't seem to have free will, as orcs do.)

First of all, I don't see any basis for orcish free will except guesswork.
Treebeard does not list them among the "free" peoples; what he meant by
free peoples is also a matter of conjecture, but I personally believe that
it implies moral freedom.  Thus, I would say that orcs do not have moral
free will.  I don't remember any other mention of "free" vs. unfree peoples
that would clarify, but contrast the treatment of gollum and orcs.  Gollum
is in some sense "evil", but still retains moral free will --as did Saruman.
Orcs, OTOH, do not seem to.  The moral choice was made long ago, when some
elves listened to Melkor's lies.

Second, I recall the relevant phrase to go something like "Morgoth made
trolls in mockery of ents, much as orcs are made in mockery of elves.  If
I have remembered this correctly, then it's reasonable to assume that trolls
and orcs have the same moral status.  Certainly the trolls in the Hobbit act
similarly to orcs, with one appearing no more like an automaton than the
other.

As for the stone thing, I would not be surprised if T. had no thought of ents
when he had the trolls turn to stone in daylight in the Hobbit.  The "mockery
of ents" idea might have been a later idea, after the stone business had
already been stated.  The Hobbit was not originally meant to be part of M.E.,
after all.  A stone creature would logically be a mockery of Dwarves.

Alternatively, one could use the stone vs. wood difference between trolls and
ents to represent the difference between Eru's creatures and Morgoth's
corruptions; Tolkien clearly loved trees and growing things, and it is not
unreasonable that Yavanna's forest guardians would be partake of the nature
of a living thing while Melkor's mockery would partake of the nature of dead
stone.  The wood -> stone business could be simply part of the corruption
process.  The symbolism does not seem unreasonable to me, and would have been
more important than any suppossed difficulties in making one from the other.
Anyone willing to bet that Melkor could not possibly turn wood into stone?

>May Elbereth protect you.... Joerg Rhiemeier.  

-- 
Dustin Laurence       "As sensitive and broad-minded humans, we must never
                       allow ourselves to be in any way judgmental of the
laurence@alice         religious practices of other people, even when these
caltech.edu           people clearly are raving space loons." -- Dave Barry
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien