HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: vkunch@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Virginia P Kunch)
Newsgroups: alt.wolves
Subject: Re: Anyone out there interested in wolves?
Date: 6 Nov 1992 15:13:48 GMT
Organization: Computing Services Division, University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
Distribution: all
NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.89.7.4

The information is from the US Fish & Wildlife Service Alternative
Scoping brochure, Gray Wolf EIS.  I'm afraid I don't have the exact
date of publication, but it's somewhere between November 1991 and now.  The
topic is Wolf Recovery in Yellowstone:


"Gray Wolf Reintroduction issues identified by the public"

In April 1992, 27 open houses were held in Wyoming, Montana, and Idaho;
7 others were held throughout the US.  Over 1,730 people attended th3ese informational meetings.  To help identify wolf recovery issues, thousands of 
brochures describing wolf life history, wolf recovery and management, and
the EIS process were distributed.  Nearly 4000 people, representing all 50
states and several countries, commented on issues they wanted considered
in wolf recovery.  A report on those open houses and the issues identified
by the public was distributed in early July.  The public identified 31 
issues related to wolf recovery, reintroduction and management.

Issues receiving the Most Attention:

-wolf as a missing component of ecosystem
-livestock depredation
-compensation for depredations/private property rights
-cost in taxpayers' dollars
-effects on big game species
-alternatives not weakening the Endangered Species Act
-need for public education
-wolves' rights
-illegal killing of wolves and control strategies

Issues receiving Moderate Attention:

-land use policy and possible restrictions 
-non-consumptive use of wolves
-human health and safety
-range requirements of wolves
-value to local economy
-effects on hunting opportunities
-Federal subsidy of special interest groups
-State vs Federal authority
-exactly what are the Yellowstone National Park and central Idaho
   recovery areas?
   -relationship with existing wolves in Montana

   (I hate it when the computer does this...)

   Issues receiving Least Attention

   -consumptive use of wolves
   -spiritual/cultural issues
   -reintroduced wolves same as previous wolves?
   (subspecies issue)
   -what is a viable population?
   -effect of wolves on other predators
   -disease/parasites (to and from wolves)
   -hybridization
   -effects on other endangered species
   -animal welfare/dignity
   -will wolves really be delisted
   -travel corridors/linkages
   -need for research

   *** end article ***

   ...just thought some of you guys might be interested in what the
   general public thinks about all this stuff...

   -ginny kunch
   vkunch@csd4.csd.uwm.edu
From: jef9@po.CWRU.Edu (Joseph E. Faber)
Newsgroups: alt.wolves
Subject: Re: Wolf studies in Grad School
Date: 11 Nov 92 22:38:22 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: slc12.ins.cwru.edu


You are not going to find too many grad schools with programs
in wolf biology. You will probably not find too many jobs as a
"wolf biologist" either. The job market, and grad school 
positions no longer search for people interested in mammalogy,
herpetology, ichthyology, etc. Students are normally trained to 
study behavior and/or ecology and/or population biology. The key
is to search for a solid program in ecology, where several profs.
with different strengths do research. You will want to make sure 
that some of the professors study mammals (esp. wolves). The 
location may not be too important, because if you learn how to 
write grants and you meet the right people, you can travel
anywhere and study anything. I suggest looking at University
of Kansas and Michigan State for starters. Go to your library
reference section and look at the descriptors of different 
schools. Also, read the journal of mammalogy, to find out where
researchers are. Good luck.
Newsgroups: alt.wolves
From: jegm@cody.esd.sgi.com (Jim Morris)
Subject: Re: Name of artist?
Reply-To: jegm@esd.sgi.com
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc.
Distribution: all
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 19:01:10 GMT

I think the artist is Marguerite Fields.
A catalogue is available from her at (408) 732-0516

-- 
Jim Morris, Email: jegm@esd.sgi.com  Voice: (415) 390-5136
From: bgt@cbnewsh.cb.att.com (barbara.tongue)
Newsgroups: alt.wolves
Subject: Name of artist?
Keywords: wolves, indians, horses, etc.
Date: 8 Nov 92 13:21:50 GMT
Organization: AT&T

folks,

when on a business trip months ago, i found some remarkable pictures
of wolves and horses depicted with indian women.  i haven't located
them ever since, and unfortunatly don't remember the name of the
artist.

does anyone know?

thanx in advance,

-- 
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
%%   The Speaking Tongue, AT&T   %%  C Code.  C Code Run.  Run, Code, RUN! %%
%%       bgt@homxc.att.com       %%           PLEASE!!!!                   %%
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
Xref: sparky alt.society.anarchy:713 ba.politics:7050
From: miballar@leland.Stanford.EDU (Michael Ballard)
Newsgroups: alt.society.anarchy,ba.politics
Subject: Invitation to coffee
Date: 12 Nov 92 22:29:50 GMT
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA

December 5, Saturday, 8:00pm,

CRIMINAL SYNDICALIST COFFEEHOUSE

To be held at the ILWU Hall, 225 9th St., near Folsom,
San Francisco, Ca.

Tentative program includes:  music, Paper Tiger Television's documentary
on the End-Up, an open mic featuring personal stories, songs, and poems of
distress and sabotage on the job, "What is criminal syndicalism?" and 
of course food and drink.
This is a benefit for the new Queer Labor Focus-Group of Queer Nation.
 
-- 
Mike Ballard 
Time is money. Steal some today!
Don't just complain, organize! e-mail iww@igc.org  Ph: (415)863-WOBS.
From: tsa@cellar.org (The Silent Assassin)
Newsgroups: alt.society.anarchy
Subject: Stats for L vote
Date: 8 Nov 92 03:06:24 GMT
Organization: The Cellar BBS and public access system

Hey, does anyone have any stats on % of popular votes the Libertarians got
in any states?  From what I hear, many of the states didn't even count
'em...


Disclaimer: none. /earth is 98% full, please delete anyone you can.
tsa@cellar.org | weeks quote:"  Whenever 'A' attempts by law to impose his
moral standards on 'B', 'A' is most likely a scoundrel"-H.L. Mencken
"Mispelled?  Impossible!  I have an error-correcting modem."
Xref: sparky alt.society.anarchy:707 alt.society.revolution:529 ba.politics:7004
From: miballar@leland.Stanford.EDU (Michael Ballard)
Newsgroups: alt.society.anarchy,alt.society.revolution,ba.politics
Subject: Support Radical Queer Labor
Date: 11 Nov 92 21:48:10 GMT
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA

.Protest the firing of union activists and pwas
.Support Labor's right to free speech
.Build militant queer unionism

Upend the End Up!
Friday, November 20 at 10pm
Meet at the corner of 6th and Harrison in San Francisco for the picket,
protest, demo.

Endorsers:  Queer Nation, Teamsters Joint Council #7, Act Up San Francisco,
Workers Solidarity Alliance, Tom Ammiano.

For more info call (415) 863-9627

-- 
Mike Ballard 
Time is money. Steal some today!
Don't just complain, organize! e-mail iww@igc.org  Ph: (415)863-WOBS.
Newsgroups: alt.society.anarchy
From: cburke@nexus.yorku.ca (Carolyn Burke)
Subject: Re: Explaining anarchy to your friends?
Organization: York University
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 16:09:28 GMT


If i understand your position, you hold a desire for freedom and the
view that reacting to the might-makes-righters via their philosophy is
not the way to go.  A middle of the roader is that person who holds to
the former, but not the latter.  (Hope I've represented your position
somewhat :) )

My concern is that though an anarchist, I still want to live in society.
As there will probably not be any quick conversions of most everyone
else to a freer way of thinking, I am left coping with a world I never
would have created.

Without some positive or active resistence to the governments and pushy
neighbours of the world (with the hope of affecting a change for the
better), I don't believe I could survive.  Well I know I couldn't be
very happy with what I see as a passive solution.

I guess I'm asking whether there is a way for me to stop being a middle
of the roader, without losing any chance of happiness in this life.

  

-- 
........................................................................
...... C L Burke ... cburke@nexus.yorku.ca ... (416) 604 2235   ........
........................................................................
Newsgroups: alt.society.anarchy
From: damiens@cco.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan)
Newsgroups: alt.society.anarchy
Subject: Singularity
Date: 7 Nov 1992 07:54:18 GMT
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
NNTP-Posting-Host: punisher.caltech.edu

	As far as electronic intelligence and the Singularity goes,
even without actual *superior* intelligence true AI could still be 
totally unintelligble.  Imagine that it is possible to 'map' a human
brain, neuron for neuron, into a fiber optic/semi-conductor analog.  Note
that I am not talking about digital computers but a human brain using
optical/electronic neurons instead of the current biological ones.  Then
consider that neuron impulses move at about 120 m/s, while electrons
can easily move at 120 million m/sec.  Even if you heavily disadvantage
the electronic brain by postulating larger size, inefficiency of connections
and such you still get an intelligence speeded up at least 10,000 times,
and possibly a million times faster than human brains.  At the upper limit
one second for us would be a week and a half for the electronic brain.
Any comments?
			-- Damien Sullivan
	42	AIXELSYD	Kiljoy  X-)
Bill Gates is twice as rich as Ross Perot.  Any ideas....?
---------------------------------------------------------------------
From: alanf@cs.monash.edu.au (Alan Grant Finlay)
Subject: Re: Last Try on Forgery
Organization: Computer Science, Monash University, Australia
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1992 23:34:52 GMT

CrepeSuzette@Recette.de.cuisine writes:
>     I think that forgery has a lot to offer to anarchy. If one needs to do
>away with some kind of system, then one should exploit It's weaknesses
>until it collapses... What do you think about this?

The current network protocols are based upon cooperation.  Everybody knows
that any fool can forge mail.  A secure system could be built but it would
cost a great deal more and probably wouldn't be as flexible.  You seem to
be the kind of person that equates anarchy with vandalising telephone booths.
Electronic networks are one of the greatest anti-establishment weapons
(in promoting free speech and access to others) that we have!

,-------Alan Finlay, email: alanf@bruce.cs.monash.edu.au, phone: (03)565-5225.
|	Victorian Centre for Image Processing and Graphics,
|	Monash University, CLAYTON 3168, Australia.
|
`-------(Premature optimisation is the root of all evil.)
From: w2lee@argo.acs.oakland.edu (Walter Lee)
Subject: Re: Hypothetically speaking
Reply-To: w2lee@argo.acs.oakland.edu
Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, MI
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1992 02:09:01 GMT

In article <DRW.92Nov13164010@tarski.mit.edu>, drw@tarski.mit.edu (Dale R. Worley) writes:
>In article <1992Nov13.123849.49903@ccvax.ucd.ie> x551_003@ccvax.ucd.ie writes:
>   > What do you do about the > plight of the poor, And why?
>
>   Hand over power to factory committees, workers councils etc so that
>   we can have Anarchism.  (If only it were this easy).
>
>It isn't even that easy.  The people who don't have jobs would not be
>empowered by factory committees, workers' councils, or the like.  Such
>groups improve the lot of the workers by expropriating the facilities
>in which they work.  (Which may be a good or bad idea.)  But that
>mechanism is not available for those who do not have jobs.
>
>Dale

BINGO!

Industries in general are becoming less labor intensive.  This includes the
servant-sector industries.  So don't count on them to grow the job market.

Sooner or later we have to come to terms with the fact that labor and
productivity have less and less to do with each other.

The percentage of people who have something non-trivial to contribute to the
economy is shrinking.  I bet if the economy were under no luddite pressure the
unemployment rate would be a clear majority.  Maybe it will take MIT-types like
Dale and OU types like myself longer to become irrelevant.

But thanx to the Calvinist Work Ethic, workers are begging to be hired; and
begging their policymakers to give industries all kinds of tax and regulatory
breaks so they'll have the freedom to "create jobs".

Instead of giving the workers more control over the factories, give the
factories less control over the workers!

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Walter Lee    w2lee@argo.acs.oakland.edu

Don't blame me, I didn't vote!
Newsgroups: alt.society.anarchy
From: danny@athena.mit.edu (Daniel A Lagattuta)
Subject: Re: Exploitation
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 16:46:33 GMT

In article <MAD.92Nov3110345@spirit.clearpoint.com>, mad@spirit.clearpoint.com (Michael Davis) write
|> Dale,
|> 
|> You do not address the fundamental issues.  As I see them they are:
|> (1) In a historical sense, all capital comes from an expropriation of
|> unowned or communal resources, and (2) in a modern sense, labor is a
|> cheap commodity which is not rewarded in proportion to the value it
|> produces.  That a small minority should be rewarded for ancestral
|> theft does not make sense to me.  Capital `primes the pump' of
|> productivity;  it should get a fair reward for that, but perpetual
|> ownership of the majority of the value produced stretches the
|> definition of fair reward beyond the breaking point.
|> 
	I had a summer job.  I was paid money for it.  I put the money in a bank.
 The bank loans it to help start a business.  Where is the expropriation of
communal resources to supply that business with its capital?

	If my parents work hard so that I can be better off, is it right to stop
them and confiscate their accumulated capital?  Is that fair?  

|> Your statement that "Capital must produce *something*" is not even
|> always true.  What is produced by the capital invested by arbirageurs
|> who make bags of money investing on the spread between the buy and
|> sell prices of pork bellies on the commodities market?  By LBO mania
|> which has lessened but not stopped in the 90's?  "Efficiency of the
|> market" as an answer here is merely a tautology, so answer with some
|> other good...

	In the language of economists, investing in financial assets such as 
buying stocks from someone else should be called a transfer of assets rather than 
investment.  In economics, investment means purchasing capital, such as machine
tools or constructing a building.  Investing in financial markets is only
investment in economic terms when the money is going directly into new capital.  


	This is not to say that trading is a valueless activity.  Somebody has to
figure out at what price the supply of commodities and assets equals the demands.
Someone also has to help protect people against risk in the market and to help
the uninformed make better decisions about which assets to hold.  These are
highly valuable services (in $ terms) and that is why these people are paid lot
of money.

|> 
|> I support the right of people to get rich (hope to do so myself :^),
|> but hard work, or clever work, are the ways to do it, not by paying
|> others $4.25 an hour for services that are worth $10.
|> 
|> -mad
|> 
	If they were worth $10 then the Marginal Revenue Product of that unit of
labor is worth $10.  Marginal Cost is $4.25.  Marginal Profit is $5.75.  One will
increase labor employed until the Marginal Profit of each unit of labor is driven
down to zero.  Wage will then equal the Marginal Value of Work.  This is basic
microeconomics and explains why people who are being paid $4.25 are doing $4.25
worth of service, not $10.

					Daniel A. LaGattuta
From: GroundHog@FoxHole.ZigZag.edu
Newsgroups: alt.society.anarchy
Subject: Let me try again (i.e. forgery)
Date: 5 Nov 92 23:00:36 GMT
Organization: Still None Really


          Well, In my previous post, the From line still gave my e-mail
address. So I'm trying again.

         re-Cheers,

           H.
Newsgroups: alt.society.anarchy
From: kurt@eskimo.celestial.com (Kurt Cockrum)
Subject: Re: Making an FAQ for a.s.a (?)
Summary: real subject: confusion between means and ends
Organization: >>> Eskimo North (206)-FOR-EVER <<<
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1992 18:00:42 GMT

In article <1992Nov2.092540.26499@nntp.hut.fi> jkp@cs.HUT.FI (Jyrki Kuoppala) writes:
>In article <1992Nov1.192551.28803@eskimo.celestial.com>, kurt@eskimo (Kurt Cockrum) writes:
>>Well, Jyrki, how do you define "vote"?  Isn't "vote" just an individual's
>>contribution to a group decision (loose definition)?  Is it something
>>different, like "participating in a government-sponsored election" (strict
>>definition)?  If not, then what's the beef?
>
>I thought about something like "participating in a group decision
>which results are thought to be binding to others, even those who
>didn't vote".  That doesn't seem very compatible with anarchy.  If
>it's just contribution to a group decision, I'd have thought the word
>"opinion" would have been sufficient.  In my eyes, the word "vote"
>seems to imply that the results are though to be binding to even those
>who didn't vote.  A matter of semantics.

How about "participation in collective decision-making process" (i. e.
leave out the parts about "binding to others" which IMO contributes nothing
to the definition)? Voting is just one way of doing that.  Consensus is
another.  Opinions provide the ground or base for group processes.

[...]
>>There are all these hoary old myths about anarchists floating around,
>>and many anarchists seem to beleive in them.  Two such myths are:
>>o	anarchists are against organization
>>o	anarchists don't vote
>
>In a strict sens, I think that if "vote" has meaning such as I
>described above, voting is an act of support for coercion.  If it is
>just participation in group decision where the decision only has
>effect on those who vote, it is not.
>
>//Jyrki

In any *useful* system, it's possible to "saw off the limb you are sitting
on", so to speak.  I refer to self-referential or self-reflexive actions
which do direct or indirect damage on oneself.  Suicide is one example;
so is voting to imprison oneself.  While few people will willingly jump from
high places ordinarily, they can be gotten to do so by introducing a few
layers of obfuscatory abstraction between the act and the self-preservation
function, such as is done by religion and ideology.  Simply promise them
delights in a here-after (or some other nice-sounding "goodie") and *get*
*them* *to* *believe* *it*, usually by controlling and manipulating all of
their informational inputs beginning at
an early age.  The techniques are well developed.  By applying them
consistently, you can get people to willingly endanger themselves in almost
any conceivable manner for your cause, effectively overriding their builtin
self-preservation instinct.  Such people are pretty dangerous to others
(particularly free spirits), whether they vote or simply bash you over the
head.  Any paratrooper in any military unit in the world serves as an example.
-- 
kurt@grogatch.celestial.com (Kurt Cockrum)
 Nostalgic conservatives will soon be referring to the Bush Era as
 "those Halcion days of yesteryear".
From: glenne@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Neuromancer )
Newsgroups: alt.society.anarchy
Subject: Re: Explaining anarchy to your friends?
Date: 13 Nov 1992 22:19:08 GMT
Organization: Computing Services Division, University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.89.7.4

Ack!   I'm back...
 
Umm just two things I forgot to cover in the heat of the moment.
First why shouldn't you spend you life fearing death and letting
this dictate your values?   I've got news for you, death is
inevitable.  It's a given.  Accept it.  No matter how much
violence and coercion you use, you are going to die.  So you
might as well use NO violence and coercion, since it isn't
going to change the final outcome.
 
Second, yeah, meeting people's needs can be fulfilling, but
you were talking happiness.  A different animal.  Well again,
meeting people's needs is pretty wide open.  I guess it's your
job to find something that you could have a lifetime of fun
doing, that meets people's needs.  Fortunately I have done this.
I really love computers and learning about the brain, and whaddya
know, there's this new field, computational neuroscience.  I can
model the brain on computers to my hearts content, helping advance
medical and intelligence engineering discoveries without ever
having to do any animal experiments.  The pieces are really starting
to fall together.   Heck, I've even got an SO with a relationship
built on trust, and I can relate to Scott Ingram.  Things are
lookin' up!   And I could die today with no regrets.
 
Glenn                                    glenne@csd4.csd.uwm.edu
Newsgroups: alt.society.anarchy
From: woodgold@emr1.emr.ca (Cathy Woodgold)
Subject: Force is necessary?
Organization: Energy, Mines, and Resources, Ottawa
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 21:41:02 GMT

In article <1992Nov5.213348.14135@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> sanderso@nyx.cs.du.edu (Borogove) writes:
>I use only the force necessary to stop the attacker attacking me, and no more.

I am a (former) student of Aikido.  First of all, I would distinguish
between force and violence.  Force means pushing someone;  violence means
hurting them.  Although force is not polite in normal circumstances,
I see nothing wrong with using it against an attacker.

The philosophy of Aikido is that it is possible -- and (therefore)
morally required -- to meet any attack in such a way that neither
attacker nor attacked are hurt.  There are exceptions, if one person
or the other is not sufficiently skilled.  If the person being
attacked is not skilled enough -- well, they should have studied 
their Aikido better.  If the person being attacked finds it necessary
to, say, throw the attacker towards the floor, and the attacker
doesn't know how to land properly -- well, that's not the fault
of the thrower, if they tried to throw the person as gently as
possible given the nature of the attack.  It's analogous to the
situation where the attacker is running really fast at the other
person, who steps out of the way, allowing the attacker to run into
a brick wall.  OK, in that situation there was nothing they could
do to prevent someone getting hurt.  However, normally, there IS
a way to meet an attack and save both people.  Aikido is the art
of how to do this.  

Aikido is amazing;  it's full of things that seem paradoxical 
until you understand them (like being able to throw someone
to the floor without touching them).  Having studied Aikido a
bit, one can generalize some of the ideas into other parts
of life than hand-to-hand combat: for example, finding it 
easier to believe that a non-violent response in a war can
be very successful.  When you believe there is a way to do
something, you're well on the way to finding it.

Cathy  woodgold@seismo.emr.ca  Ottawa, Canada  My own opinions
Newsgroups: alt.society.anarchy
From: cardell@lysator.liu.se (Mikael Cardell)
Subject: Re: Last Try on Forgery
Organization: Lysator Academic Computer Society, Linkoping University, Sweden
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 12:44:17 GMT

Your forgery was not a total success. Consider this header that was
taken from your posting:
d
u!spool.mu.edu!news.nd.edu!mentor.cc.purdue.edu!noose.ecn.purdue.edu!news

See, here it says clearly that it comes from purdue.edu.

From: SubZero@UnderTemp.Really.Chilly
Subject: Last Try on Forgery

And here...


And even here...

Organization: If you're cooler, you're dead!
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 21:58:05 GMT

And if this date is correct and I have an account on perdue I would be
able to check who was on at the time. 

Better luck next time.


-- 
mikael cardell <cardell@lysator.liu.se>
      buddham saranam gocchami!
      dhamman saranam gocchami!