HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: scs@lokkur.dexter.mi.us (Steve Simmons)
Subject: Re: Wolfe, "Book of the New Sun"
Organization: Inland Sea
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 92 11:41:39 GMT

firth@sei.cmu.edu (Robert Firth) writes:

>In article <1992Aug11.035102.249632@cs.cmu.edu> lindsay+@cs.cmu.edu (Donald Lindsay) writes:

>>Urth is the eldest of the Norns, who represents the past.

>No, that's a fairly late mistake by the Icelandic commentators.

But it's the definition used by Wolfe.  Or so he says in "Castle of the
Otter."
-- 
 "Voodoun is a very interesting religion for the whole family, even those
  members of it who are dead."
		-- "Good Omens", by Neil Gaiman and Terry Pratchett
Xref: sparky rec.arts.sf.written:11050 rec.arts.sf.science:2481
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,rec.arts.sf.science
From: mfriedma@uucp (Michael Friedman)
Subject: Re: Are the Moties us?
Organization: Oracle Corporation
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 23:19:33 GMT
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by an unauthenticated user
              at Oracle Corporation.  The opinions expressed are those
              of the user and not necessarily those of Oracle.

In article <1992Aug13.064855.24107@ee.eng.ohio-state.edu> rob@watney.eng.ohio-state.edu (Rob Carriere) writes:
>In article <1992Aug12.201344.6642@oracle.us.oracle.com> mfriedma@uucp (Michael
>Friedman) writes: 
>>Has it occurred to anyone else out there that the Moties are really
>>not all that different from us?

>>Until something happens to forcibly restrain humn breeding I would
>>expect to see a continuing trend that brings us closer and closer to
>>the Motie model.

>>Comments?

There is a negative correlation between wealth and birth rate.  Why?
Probably for the following reasons...

1.  The richer you are, the more likely you are to have access to
contraceptives.  

2.  The rich need less redundancy in their families to be sure of
reaching a given target.

3.  The rich are more likely to be educated to have fewer children.

4.  If you're dirt poor you aren;t that much poorer with 6 kids than
with 2.  If you're rich you are much poorer.

None of these factors produce any kind of evolutionary pressure to
have fewer kids if you are rich.

Moreover, the rich are dying out.  In some rich countries the birth
rate has dropped below the replacement rate.

As various poor people become rich and hit the factors I list above
their birth rate decreases.  The ones whose birthrate decrease least
will have a larger proportion of children in the next generation.
Therefore, as time goes on, the negative correlation between wealth
and birthrate will get smaller.  In fact, I predict it will become
positive.

The best check of this would be actual populations, for example
various ethnic groups in the US over the past 100 years using census
data.  

-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am not an official Oracle spokesman.  I speak for myself and no one else.
From: u9161910@cs.uow.edu.au (Gareth William Omeara)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Author Polls -- Gordon R. Dickson
Date: 21 Aug 92 02:42:19 GMT
Organization: Dept of Computer Science, Wollongong University, Australia

Here are some votes for previous polls:

PHILIP K. DICK
	+3 Time out of Joint
	+2 UBIK
	+1 Man in the High Castle
	-1 The Ganymede Takeover

ROBERT A. HEINLEIN
	+3 Stranger in a Strange land
	+2 The Green Hills of Earth
	+1 Friday
	-1 To sail beyond the sunset

ARTHUR C. CLARKE
	+3 The City & the Stars
	+2 10 billion names of God  (can't remember if that is the
					exact title but it's close)
	+1 Rendezvous with Rama
	-1 Rama II

C.J. CHERRYH
	+3 Rimrunners
	+2 Merchanters Luck
	+1 Downbelow Station


META-POLL FOR AUTHORS
	1. Philip K. Dick
	2. Robert A. Heinlein
	3. William Gibson 
	4. Harry Harrison
	5. Philip Jose Farmer
	6. C.J. Cherryh

How about posting the results of the meta-poll?It would be interesting
to which authors are read by readers of rec.arts.sf.written .

Gareth.
u9161910@wraith.cs.uow.edu.au
From: juha.veijalainen@compart.fi (Juha Veijalainen) 
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Gardens of Rama as pa
Date: 15 Aug 92 15:37:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: ComPart BBS, Helsinki-Finland, +358 0 506 3329 (14 lines V.32bis)
Reply-To: juha.veijalainen@compart.fi (Juha Veijalainen) 

Jon Brinkmann wrote:

JB>> does anyone know, if the book "Gardens of Rama" (A.C. Clarke) is
JB>> available as paberback in the UK or the US?
JB>
JB>I checked a few weeks ago at Waldenbooks.  They're educated guess is
JB>that the paperback edition will be out in time for Christmas.

Garden of Rama is available as a paperback.  I bought it from a Helsinki 
department store last week.  Publisher is 'Orbit', ISBN 1 85723 020 5, and 
suggested list price in UK 4.99 GBP.

---
 . WinQwk 2.0 a#152 . Mielipiteet omiani/Opinions personal/Facts suspect
                                                                                            
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Subject: Re: Recommendation on Fantasy Epic Novels
Reply-To: whheydt@PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 16:20:34 GMT

In article <1992Aug13.134611.21821@wri.com> novak@wri.com (John M. Novak) writes:
>In article <1992Aug13.065149.17953@neptune.inf.ethz.ch> qvortrup@inf.ethz.ch
>(Michael Qvortrup) writes:
>>"The Magic of Recluse" (can't remember the author) also seems very promising
>>but only the first volume is out.
>
>It's by L.E. Modessit (hope I got the spelling right!)  The second book
>(actually something of a prequel) is out in hardback - "The Towers of the
>Sunset", as I recall.  I enjoyed these a lot.  He has also written a fair
>amount of SF that is quite good as well.

Having just read _Magic . . ._, I find that Modessit has *almost*
enough imagination to write an excellent work.  His twist on the usual
assignment of color to mode of magic is rather nice.  His division of
how magic is done is good.  The line where the hero is annoyed at the
villian for using dramatic gestures is really elegant.

There were two things about the book I found rather jarring--and very
much antagonistic to 'suspencion of disbelief'.  The first is his
standard unit of distance for travel (I mean . . .  really . . .
"kay"?).  The second was when the city named Jellico was named.  This
later jarred because I have a mild interest in military history and
Jellicoe was the British commander at the only Fleet Action in World
War I--the Battle of Jutland.  Not a name one expects to find in a
fantasy novel.

	--Hal
-- 
Hal Heydt                    |    "Boycott Time-Warner"
Analyst, Pacific*Bell        |         --J. Danforth Quayle
510-823-5447                 |    "... kill all the lawyers."
whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM    |         --William Shakespeare
From: dant@techbook.com (Dan Tilque)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: in the FAQ (was Re: Go to alt.fan...
Date: 21 Aug 92 09:44:33 GMT
Article-I.D.: techbook.1992Aug21.094433.5223
Organization: Pseudopolis Yard

ecmtwhk@ccu1.aukuni.ac.nz (Thomas Koenig) writes:
>tittle@ics.uci.edu (Cindy Tittle Moore) writes:
>
>>This is not to say "Don't Post" about these authors, this is simply to
>>warn you to expect some flamage if you do.  Ignore the flames.

Cindy, I'll take your suggestion under consideration.  It sounds good,
but I'd like to think about it for a while.

>
>That second part actually sounds like a good idea to me. Are the single-
>author mailing lists in the FAQ yet?

No they aren't.  While I mention some other groups, I deliberately
avoided trying to be comprehensive about listing all groups that have
some relevance to sf.  The reason for this is that it's difficult for me
to keep up with all the changes that the net undergoes.  Especially the
alt groups.

There is another FAQ which is posted to most of the r.a.sf hierarchy and
describes the purpose of the various newsgroups.  I can't remember if it
describes groups outside the hierarchy or not.  It seems to me that that
might be a more appropriate place for this topic.

---
Dan Tilque    --     dant@techbook.com

P.S.  If anyone wants to take over being keeper of the FAQ, let me know.
It's not as easy maintaining it with my current net access.
From: blumb@sage.cc.purdue.edu (Bill Blum)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Go to alt.fan...we don't want you(was Re: rec.arts.sf.written FAQ)
Date: 19 Aug 92 20:03:26 GMT
Organization: Purdue University

In article <Bt8voI.Dz0@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> ericg@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (Eric Chris Garrison) writes:
>In article <1992Aug19.181500.545@kakwa.ucs.ualberta.ca> aaron@space.ualberta.ca writes:
>>Perhaps something that should be added to the FAQ is something akin to the
>>following:
>>"Many popular authors are not held in high esteem by most of the r.a.sf.w
>>crowd.  In particular, coming out with positive comments about Piers Anthony,
>>Anne McCaffrey, or David Eddings is likely to stimulate responses on the order
>>Go away and don't come back unless
>>you have some _real_ SF to talk about.  Thank you."
>/* sarcasm on */
>Gee, what a great idea!  Yeah, and we can also add a list of all
>the authors we *do* like to the FAQ.  Yeah, we can have only stuff
>all of us like!  And I bet YOU know all the BEST, REAL SF there
>ever was!  I nominate aaron@space.ualberta.ca to be the moderator
>from now on, HE *obviously* knows his SF!  We'll talk about stuff
>HE likes, and tell all those poor deluded schmucks to go to hell!
>/* sarcasm off */
>Look, this is a PUBLIC forum for discussing written science fiction
>and fantasy.  Not just "real" SF.  Not just "classic" SF.  Not
>just YOUR idea of what is good, not just what is MY idea of what 
>is good.  I think it is awfully pompous of you to presume to 
>decide what is not _real_ SF.  Why don't you create a newsgroup
>"rec.sf.written.real" with a charter clearly defining "real SF",
>and then YOU can go away and not come back unless you have some-
>thing civil to say.  Thank you.

Well said, Eric.  Very well said.

Tell you what, I'll start saving this newsgroup to a file, printing it out,
and sending it to people like Gardner Dozois, editor of IAsfm.  If anyone
knows his SF, it would be Gardner.

Besides, define "true, real, honest-to-goodness SF".
I think maybe SF should stand for "speculative fiction" instead of science 
fiction.  The distinction between fantasy and science fiction is becoming
blurrier by the week.

If "aaron" is so knowledgeable about SF, why doesn't EVERY r.a.sf.* reader
send him a copy of their favorite author's work, and ask for a DETAILED
explanation, page-by-page, of why it is good or bad.  I'm gonna go hunt for
a box big enough to ship my copy of the L Ron Hubbard Dekalogy.  BUT, I can
either pay for my books, or pay postage. :(  Oh well.
 
-- 
William Blum            * FIAWOL: Fandom Is A Way Of Life
blumb@sage.cc.purdue.edu* Member, National Association of Rocketry
turk182@delphi.com      * Aspiring Science Fiction Author
--    Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.  --
From: jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com (Jim Mann)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Author Polls -- Cordwainer Smith
Date: 17 Aug 92 16:28:29 GMT
Reply-To: jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com

In article <1992Aug12.180847.11023@highlite.uucp>  
yarvin@highlite.uucp (Curtis Yarvin) writes:
> In article <w-3m0-c.dani@netcom.com> dani@netcom.com (Dani Zweig)  
writes:
> >Choosing among Cordwainer Smith's top half dozen stories is hard,
> >almost arbitrary.  The '-1' entry is easy, though:  I can't think
> >of anything he wrote that merits it.  I can't think of any other
> >science fiction author with such a *solid* corpus.
> 
> When discussion comes round to the Golden Age, I often find myself
> wondering if I'm living in the same consensus reality as the
> rest of you blokes.  I haven't read much by Smith - an anthology
> or two - but everything I've seen has been, if an improvement on
> E.E. Doc, mindbogglingly awful.  Without exception.

Yep, I guess you are living in a different reality.  Smith is
certainly not "Golden Age."  Most of his stuff (with Scanners
Live in Vain as the major important exception) was published
in the 1960s.  Which Smith stories did you find so awful?

> 
> I wish I did like Cordwainer, really.  It'd be so pleasant being
> able to claim that the entire genre is going downhill without a
> paddle, not a decent jot written since 1953, overrun by decadent
> hacks, corrupted by capitalism & soiled by socialism, etc, etc -
> with a straight face.

How does any of this enter into a discussion on CORDWAINER Smith,
who is probably closer in many ways to Alfred Bester, Samuel
Delany,  and Robert Silverberg (if he's close to anybody) than any 
pre-1953 writer?  Are you sure we're talking about the same 
person?

> 
> How do you all do it?  Perhaps I could convince myself through
> practice, devotion, and forced multiple rereadings of _The Skylark
> Of Space_?  Would a subscription to _Analog_ help?

Again, how does Analog or The Skylark of Space enter into 
the debate.  I don't know if Smith ever had anything published
in Analog (Campbell probably wouldn't have liked some of the
stylistic innovations.)  Most of his work was published by Fred
Pohl, I believe.


--
Jim Mann            
Stratus Computer   jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com  
Xref: sparky rec.arts.sf.written:11202 rec.arts.sf.misc:2622 news.answers:2562
From: bfish@sequent.com (Brett Fishburne)
Subject: Help finding a trilogy
Followup-To: rec.arts.sf.written
Organization: Sequent Computer Systems Inc.
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 92 14:54:53 GMT

My wife was listening to National Public Radio and the book reviewer highly
recommended "The Man Who Never Missed" (which is supposed to be a trilogy).
I have never heard of this series and couldn't find any references to it in
my local library.  My wife did not get the author, but she did write down
the name when she heard it, so she is fairly confident that the series name
is correct.  Have any of you heard of this series?

-- Brett
bfish@sequent.com
From: tittle@ics.uci.edu (Cindy Tittle Moore)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Yet Another Misleading Cover
Date: 13 Aug 92 23:48:36 GMT
Reply-To: tittle@ics.uci.edu (Cindy Tittle Moore)
Organization: ICS Dept., UC Irvine

In <hoahosth.15.713745691@halls1.cc.monash.edu.au> hoahosth@halls1.cc.monash.edu.au (ANDREA HOSTH) writes:

>>To this I would also add _The Deed Of Paksenarrion_.  The cover is very
>>interesting, and seems to be accurate.

>Yep. Both the combined trilogy and the first novel individually (Sheepfarmer'
>s Daughter) of this series feature Paks in full plate on a horse, looking
>Paladin-like. (Unfortunately Paks never rides anything bigger than a pony
>until the second book, so I guess this isn't wholly accurate, but what the
>hey). It is, however, one of the few female-fantasy novels which resist the
>tits-and-ass/Red Sonja's chainmail bikini approach completely.

In a similar vein to the last comment, check out Louis Cooper's Indigo
series.  The first four books have a wonderful pen and ink/watercolor
illustrating the covers, which is very accurate.  Alas, the last two
books have succumbed to portraying her as REALLY RED HAIRED and
WEARING BIKINIS.  Not to mention GLAZED PANICKED LOOKS whereas the
early ones portray a competent woman with an edge of dispair.  The
contrast is really striking and I'm pissed that they switched
illustrations like that in mid-stream...

--Cindy



--
Cindy Tittle Moore

Internet: tittle@ics.uci.edu       | BITNET: cltittle@uci.bitnet
UUCP:     ...!ucbvax!ucivax!tittle | Usnail: PO Box 4188, Irvine CA, 92716
Xref: sparky rec.arts.sf.written:10979 rec.arts.sf.science:2454
From: mst@vexpert.dbai.tuwien.ac.at (Markus Stumptner)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,rec.arts.sf.science
Subject: Re: Are the Moties us?
Date: 13 Aug 92 13:40:01 GMT
Organization: DB and ES Subdivision, TU Vienna

From article <1992Aug12.201344.6642@oracle.us.oracle.com>, by mfriedma@uucp (Michael Friedman):
> Up until quite recently the optimum genetic strategy for a human
> female was to have a few kids and concentrate on them.

Um, are you joking?  Look at underdeveloped countries today.  These
mimic the situation as it used to be in the industralized countries in
the past.  You need as many children as possible to have some survive.

> 4.  Women having more kids
 
We have completely the opposite effect.  The higher the living
standard, the lower the birth rates.  This is a common phenomenon for
all industrialized nations.  If you don't need kids to care for you
when you're old, a lot of the incentive for having them is gone.  If
you want some, the same number will survive for a smaller number
actually born.  If you have effective birth control, a lot of people
will save the money and time by not having children.  People are not
completely controlled by instinct.  This alone is sufficient to break
the us-as-moties theory - the moties don't have birth control.
-- 
Markus Stumptner                                mst@vexpert.dbai.tuwien.ac.at
University of Technology Vienna                 vexpert!mst@relay.eu.net
Paniglg. 16, A-1040 Vienna, Austria             ...mcsun!vexpert!mst
From: STU_GLMCELHA@VAX1.ACS.JMU.EDU (Greg McElhatton)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V17 #411
Date: 12 Aug 92 21:44:27 GMT

Re BARDIC VOICES--yes, each book will be a seperate entity.  While
the second book is a standard fantasy story, the third (The Nightengale
and the ?) will be a re-telling of Hans Christian Anderson's fairytale
The Nightingale.
From: dani@netcom.com (Dani Zweig)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Murphy: The Catswold Portal (spoilers)
Date: 20 Aug 92 18:47:01 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)

Shirley Rousseau Murphey is the author of a number of competent, but not
exceptional, young-adult fantasies, including the Dragonbards Trilogy and
the Ring of Fire Quintology.  The cover describes "The Catswold Portal" as
her first adult novel, but it isn't.  It's juvenile fiction with some
adult fiction plot elements.

The Netherworlds are a group of subterranean lands where magic works,
modern technology doesn't, and the denizens are Elves, Dwarves, Harpies,
Griffons (no, it's not Xanth)...and a race of were-cats called the
Catswold.  There lives our heroine, a girl with a mysterious past, adopted
by an enigmatic Wise Woman, and hidden from the Evil Queen.  Amazingly,
it turns out that the girl spoilerspoilerdontsayididntwarnyouohtoolate
is the Lost Princess of the Catswold, and has the potential power to
destroy the Evil Queen.

The adult portions of the book are located at the other end of the tunnel
linking the Netherworlds to California, where dwells a recently bereaved
artist (did I mention casually, in passing, that the Evil Queen absolutely
forbids the creation of any images of herself?) who finds himself adopted
by a young cat.  (The wish-fulfillment possibilities inherent in being
able to deal with a man sometimes as a young woman and sometimes as a cat,
without his knowing it, are obvious and, for Murphy at any rate,
irrestistable.)

Will the Lost Princess regain her throne and overthrow the Evil Queen?  Will
the Artist regain his lost Art?  Will they find True Love?  That would be
telling (the obvious).  It's not a bad book.  Those of you who have enough
free time to spend four hours reading "not bad" books may want to read
this one.

-----
Dani Zweig
dani@netcom.com

   If you're going to write, don't pretend to write down.  It's going to be the
   best you can do, and it's the fact that it's the best you can do that kills
   you! -- Dorothy Parker
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: grendal@iat.holonet.net (Grendal)
Subject: Re: _Tigana_ question
Organization: HoloNet (BBS: 510-704-1058)
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 04:14:52 GMT

sef@kithrup.COM (Sean Eric Fagan) writes:
: In article <darknite.714030847@camelot> darknite@camelot.bradley.edu (John S. Novak III) writes:
: >>>>SPOILERS

  sef> Who knows, maybe Brandin and his love will be born again in Fionovarr,
  sef> and : live and love there.

  Maybe. Do you think they're echos of Lisen and Amairgen ? Is that
  what they'll become ?
  I also agree, GGK should write more.

  grendal@holonet.net
Xref: sparky rec.arts.sf.written:11234 rec.arts.sf.science:2562
From: merritt@provolone.bchem.washington.edu (Ethan A Merritt)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: What are the best fantasy books involving dragons?
Date: 13 Aug 92 23:00:40 GMT
Article-I.D.: u.1992Aug13.230040.27826
Reply-To: merritt@u.washington.edu
Organization: University of Washington


In article <7830@lee.SEAS.UCLA.EDU>, kwilliam@maclab01.seas.ucla.edu
(William Kuan) writes:
|> 
|> 	Any recommendations on fantasy books involving dragons? I feel
|> like reading a good book that involves dragons as main characters in the
|> story, but have been unable to find one that really gets my attention. I
|> have already read the Earthsea Cycle by Ursula K. LeGuin, which I believe
|> depicts the best dragons I have yet read, intelligent and mysterious. I
|> have also read the Lord of the Rings and the Hobbit, but other than these
|> stories I don't recall any other memorable characterizations of dragons.
|> How about Vance's Lyonesse Trilogy? Is it any good?

Barbara Hambly: Dragonsbane (ISBN 0345315723 pbk.)
		fantasy masquerading as grimy reality, and a serious look
		at the seductions of dealing with dragons
Ursula LeGuin:	"The Rule of Names" in The Wind's Twelve Quarters
		one you might have missed
Diane Duane: The Door Into Fire (oh dear, I hope I have that title right!)
		including a marvelous conception of dragon-chess involving
		geological faultlines and mountain roots as "pieces"!

Don't believe all those who advise heading for the McCaffrey shelf - not that
her books aren't readable, but they don't at all fit your request for dragons
as main characters.  Pern is lousy with dragons all right, but they might as
well be helicopters for all the personality they show on their own ('scuse
me while I don my dragon-flame shield :-)

					Ethan A Merritt
From: kwilliam@maclab01.seas.ucla.edu (William Kuan)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: What are the best fantasy books involving dragons?
Date: 12 Aug 92 16:30:32 GMT
Reply-To: kwilliam@maclab01.seas.ucla.edu (William Kuan)
Organization: SEASnet, University of California, Los Angeles


	Any recommendations on fantasy books involving dragons? I feel
like reading a good book that involves dragons as main characters in the
story, but have been unable to find one that really gets my attention. I
have already read the Earthsea Cycle by Ursula K. LeGuin, which I believe
depicts the best dragons I have yet read, intelligent and mysterious. I
have also read the Lord of the Rings and the Hobbit, but other than these
stories I don't recall any other memorable characterizations of dragons.
How about Vance's Lyonesse Trilogy? Is it any good?
From: jim@thinkage.on.ca (James Alan Gardner)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Request: James P. Hogan's net.address...
Date: 14 Aug 92 16:13:37 GMT
Organization: Thinkage Ltd.

In article <1992Aug13.105935.27141@nwnexus.WA.COM> elf@halcyon.com (Elf Sternberg) writes:
>
>   This is a pathetic attempt to get my hands on the net address of
>James P. Hogan, writer of The Genesis Machine and The Past Through
>Tomorrow.  Please?

If Mr. Hogan doesn't reply to this himself, I hope no one else
does either (unless they check with Mr. Hogan first).  Anyway,
to get any writer's address, mail an appropriate letter to a company
that has published something by that writer.  In the letter,
suggest why you would like the address...or better yet, just
send whatever comments or questions you wanted in the first place.

		Jim Gardner, Thinkage Ltd.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written