HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: geg@beep.mis.semi.harris.com (Gregory E. Garland)
Subject: Re: ki and science
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 20:39:59 GMT
Organization: Manufacturing Systems, Harris Semicondutor

In article <1992Dec14.145521.22216@sei.cmu.edu>, psc@sei.cmu.edu (Peter Capell) writes:
|> 
|> You're right, I'm expressing a prejudice.  But hell, test my hypothesis that
|> you will be shunned if you take the notion of chi seriously in 99% if all
|> American scientific institutions.  If you work in one, try it out.  Propose a
|> study to verify the existence of chi in your home institute and see what
|> happens.  My presupposition is that you will be ridiculed.  It is highly
|> predictable.
|> 

My presupposition is you'll be asked "What are you going to measure?"; 
followed closely by "What has this got to do with micro-Kelvin physics/in-
organic chemistry/materials science/etc.?".  It's not ridicule as much
as it is the realization that this type of study isn't what they spent
10 years of college and post-grad work for.  Give somebody an effect that
will make a different number come up on their detection and analysis
equipment and you'll have people flocking to your door. 

-- 
Greg Garland - Alive, occupying space, and exerting gravitational force

MS 62-024, Harris Semiconductor Sector, PO Bx 883, 
Melbourne  FL 32905.  geg@beep.mis.semi.harris.com

"Never let the facts interfere with your perception of reality."
From: wrat@unisql.UUCP (wharfie)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: stranglehold
Date: 15 Dec 92 15:52:51 GMT
Organization: UniSQL, Inc., Austin, Texas, USA

In article <1992Dec15.010741.331@craycos.com> sog@craycos.com (Steve Gombosi) writes:
>Wharfie, this whole thread started out as a "self-defense" query, not
>as a treatise on strangulation methods. 

	Yeah, well, this _is_ Usenet...  At least the Subject: has _some_
relation to the content...

>Any karateka will tell you that a haymaker is a technically 
>inept, slow, easily blocked attack. That doesn't mean it won't hurt 
>you. If some 200 lb lunatic actually *hits* you with one, you are going
>to go *down*. Period. The same is true of the "front choke." Since

	I think the front "choke" is safer, since if the haymaker hits
you you'll get hurt but even if the guy actually latches on to your
throat you won't get hurt unless you stand there for a while...  (#include
usual disclaimers about 450 pound ex Green Berets on drugs)

>isn't a 4th dan in Judo), it's incumbent on those of us who are practicing
>for something *other* than sporting applications to be able to handle it.

	Sure, practice with it.  **All** I've been trying to say is that
this particular attack should be easy for anyone with minimum training
to deal with.  Even of the guy actually gets the "hold".  It's a very
ineffective attack...
								wr
From: ian@csc.liv.ac.uk (Ian Finch)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: TRUE MARTIAL ARTIST (was: Van Damme and Seagal)
Date: 11 Dec 92 21:25:52 GMT
Organization: Knee Deep in Sky High
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8]

K.W.Pang (kwp@ukc.ac.uk) wrote:
>
> What are you talking about???? 
> Have you seen the British Shotokan Ace Terry O'Neil  ??  He is a 
> superb Martial Artist and also a Body Builder.
>
Well, he's well-built but he's not the size of a competitive body builder.

> He is fast and powerful!
>
This I believe, but I'm sure I read an interview with him where he said that
he'd lost some degree of movement.  If you build up your chest and arms, there
are simply positions you can't put your arms in because there is muscle in
the way.  Also, I think that he stopped competing seriously, before he started
building up.

I'll see if I can dig out the interview on this point (unless I imagined it
all).

> Body Building builds bulk BUT doesn't necessarily make you a bad MA!!!!!!!
>
You have to train in the right way.  You can build up a flexible, powerful
physique, but you can also lose out if you train the wrong way!

Just my thoughts,
                   Ian
--
 //                             //
 // ian@compsci.liverpool.ac.uk //
 //                             //
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: ek@patty.gud.siemens.co.at (Ernst Krudl)
Subject: Re: Ki and science
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 09:36:52 GMT
Organization: SIEMENS Austria Corp., A-1100 Wien, Gudrunstr. 11
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5

I have come across an article where Qigong MAsters had their external
Qi investigated by scientific methods. This was done in CHina, I believe.
One Qigong Master was found to radiate fine particles, the other ultrared
(not infrared, the other side of red) radiation. The article did not give
details on the equipment used. 
I wonder if there are investigations of that kind known to anybody in more
detail or if there are done any in Western states.
Once some classes of QI expression are identified on an accepted level,
biofeedback training might accelerate the investigation.
I personally would like this kind of serious game, put some hardware in 
my PC, the sensors on the other side of the room, and see if I can reach
any.
So I suggest the Qi masters should provide their Qi, and the siencemasters
their equipment.

Ernst Krudl, Vienna, Austria (ek@patty.gud.siemens.co.at)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: bburgar@cix.compulink.co.uk (Bill Burgar)
Subject: Describing techniques in words - Yuk!
Reply-To: bburgar@cix.compulink.co.uk
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 22:11:00 +0000



Does anyone have a neat way of describing techniques without a great long
description in words. i.e. some form of ascii short hand notation that
is clear. If not can we develop one? Something that everyone here can
learn to use so that we can discuss more technical concepts without being
too badly misunderstood.


Any ideas + has it been tried before and given up on - it may be rather
difficult!!!


Bill Burgar.
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: nigel@ietech.demon.co.uk ("Nigel G. Backhurst")
Subject: Prickett Sensei
Distribution: world
Organization: IE Technical Services Holland
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 02:16:50 +0000

First apologies to a number of people who have sent me mail in the
last six weeks.  I have only recently go my net link re-established
after moving to the Netherlands.  As a result I found myself with
a considerable amount of E-Mail to answer.  A large part of this though
related to Prickett Sensei and requests for information.  As so many
people had E-mailed me, I thought it would save time and also kill
some rumours if I put a notice out on the net.

Prickett Sensei died in England last month.  I recieved news of his
death on the 11th of November.  He had been ill with a heart condition
for some years, but in the last couple of years his conditions had got
much worse.

He was due to go into hospital for a heart transplant and was expecting
to go in as soon as a suitable heart became available.

Pricket Sensei was one of the leading teachers of Aikido in England.  Not
only on a technical level but also on the philosophical and meta-physical
level.  More importantly he had a major influence on the thinking and ideas
of many martial artists both inside and outside of Aikido.

For many years he refused to graded above his third Dan, most associations
who knew him recognised him as being above grade and 4th and 5th Dans
would regularly turn up on courses when they knew he was teaching.

There is not really much more I can say, or information I can give, not
know being in contact with the English Martial Arts scene.  All I can
do is repeat the words of Simon Ford-Powell when he phoned me to give me
the news:

    We have lost a great master and a good friend.



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Nigel Backhurst ( nigel@ietech.demon.co.uk )
Koggestraat 10D, 3028 VX Rotterdam, Netherlands
IE Technical Services Holland, Deventerstr 150, 7321 CE Apeldoorn, NL
---------------------------------------------------------------------
From: acharya@HYDRA.ROSE-HULMAN.EDU
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Hal Roach and his contribution to martial arts
Date: 18 Dec 1992 21:12:38 GMT
Organization: Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology
Reply-To: acharya@HYDRA.ROSE-HULMAN.EDU
NNTP-Posting-Host: hydra.rose-hulman.edu

mccreary@sword.eng.hou.compaq.com (Ed McCreary) says:
Sorry, but Hal Roach died just a few months ago.  I believe
Billy Crystal did a tribute to him during the last Oscars.
I was amazed that he was still alive.

You'd be hard pressed to find someone who had more influence 
on comedy that he did.

	all fine and dandy, but could he have beaten bruce lee is
	what i want to know.

	-mukund 
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: nlund@kodak.com
Subject: Re: martial arts info
Originator: lund@viper
Organization: Eastman Kodak
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 92 23:19:10 GMT

In article <1992Dec10.163217.2910@walter.cray.com> radner@cray.com (Lauren Radner) writes:

>In article <4332@unisql.UUCP> wrat@unisql.UUCP (wharfie) writes:

>> And from aiki*
>>practice, where techniques are too dangerous to practice against full
>>resistance.  

>I'll let the aiki* folks defend themselves. (Can I watch?)

Huh?  I didn't know we were under attack.  I thought he had given us a
big complement.

After all, isn't he saying that aiki* techniques are more effective?

If you can safely practice a technique full power, against a resisting
opponent, then it must not be a very effective technique, eh?  :-)

OK, Lauren, if it'll make you feel better, I'll pretend that was an attack,
and I'll pretend that it warrants a defense.  :-)  But I'll disguise it as
advice to the person who first asked for help.  :-)

Based on my experience, I would recommend either Jujutsu, or, if you can
find it, Aiki Jujutsu.  These martial arts are based on the principle of
Ju, or yielding.  As a result, size and strength are not as important as
in some other arts.

Judo and Aikido are two modern offshoots of these martial arts, but, by
_definition_, are not martial arts.  :-)  How'm I doing Lauren?  :-)

They are, by _definition_, martial _ways_.  They are not designed for
combat, or self defense.  They are _designed_ to provide a _way_, or
_path_ toward self betterment, or, _enlightenment_.

Nevertheless, since they do have a curriculum that is based on some very
effective combat styles, the astute student may find many techniques that
are still applicable to self defense, especially in Aikido, where the
the techniques have not been modified to make them safe enough for
_competition_.  :-)  How's that?  Has he tapped out yet?  :-)

Really, Lauren, I didn't know you were into voyeurism.  :-)

For any of you that are currently reaching for the 'F' key, with flames
in their hearts, I would like to point out the many smilies, and would
like to assure you, that this was written with a big smile on my face,
and that I have the utmost respect for _every_ style.  :-)

(smile, life is too short anyway...  :-)
Nate
nlund@kodak.com
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: kevin@pages.com (Kevin Sven Berg)
Subject: Re: A western scientific look at Ki
Organization: Banzai Research Institute
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 18:29:41 GMT

In article <1992Dec17.043458.9486@reed.edu> mnoell@reed.edu (I'm done  
dammit!!!) writes:
> 	Please pardon my ignorance and skepticism, but can anyone document
> these episodes in which a mother lifts a car to save her child?  

On one of the America's Funniest Home Emergency Videos (or facsimile)
they showed one man lifting a crashed helicopter off another man so that 
he could be pulled from underneath. Ok, so it's not a car, not a baby, and not 
a mother...


-- 
Kevin Sven Berg               /    /    /    /  P /  a /  g /  e /  s
kevin@pages.com              /    /    /    /    /    /    /    / 
Pages Software Inc.         /    /    /    /    /    /    /    /   
San Diego, CA.               `    `    `    `    `    `    `    `
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: ek@patty.gud.siemens.co.at (Ernst Krudl)
Subject: Re: Ki and science
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 07:49:54 GMT
Organization: SIEMENS Austria Corp., A-1100 Wien, Gudrunstr. 11
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5

My remarks on qi investigation led to an interesting thread-cascade 
anyway.
What I read was a translated and modified excerpt from:
The Four Major Mysteries of Mainland China" by Paul  Dong,
Prentice Hall, Inc., Englewood Cliffs, NJ 07632.

The scientific approach in the University of Shanghai was not to find
the Qimeter, but to test QigongMasters, when they said they were
in a Qi-state. Measure of the infrared radian, make the aura of the
hand visible on a picture and then compare it to an average person and
thus maybe find a connection to present day science.

Ernst Krudl, Vienna, Austria, Europe (ek@patty.gud.siemens.co.at)
From: gee@col.hp.com (Ken Gee)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Finishing techniques
Date: 17 Dec 1992 15:13:59 GMT
Organization: HP Colorado Springs Division
NNTP-Posting-Host: rs11.col.hp.com

	When I was in my early 20's, I consumed large amounts of PCP.  While
I never became a raving madman (In fact, I have sincere doubts that the drug
causes behavior that doesn't already potentially exist while straight), 
I would ocassionally cause myself injury that I would not become aware of until
later.  Most joint locks do rely on pain for effectiveness; at least the ones
used in Aikido do.  Someone who does not feel pain and has a sense of invulner-
ability is not going to be susceptible to these techniques.  Picture, if you
will, a fingerlock, nikyo, or sankyo on someone who doesn't care if the joint
breaks.  Someone on PCP could just allow the joint to break on his way after
you. That arm or hand may be useless afterward, but he will still be able to
do you damage with the other one.
	The only thing that would be surely effective would to be to remove 
his ability to come after you, which would probably require destroying at
least one of his knees.  PCP usually adversely affects one's coordination, so
it isn't likely he will be able to hop after you very fast.
	While I don't regret that period of my life, I'm very happy to have
survived it.

Ken
Xref: sparky rec.martial-arts:15593 talk.politics.guns:25109
From: das@unislc.uucp (David Shorten)
Subject: Re: where to buy a CLUB for my car
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Organization: Unisys Corporation SLC
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 20:28:51 GMT

Brian T. Murray (lauren@quip.eecs.umich.edu) wrote:
: 
: The trial of four police officers who beat motorist Malice Green
: to death with MAG-LITE-type flashlights is going on in Detroit right
: now.  There has been some discussion of regulating such flashlights here.
: 

And this trial isn't national news?   I've never heard of it.  What
are the published facts of the case?

Dave S.
From: acharya@HYDRA.ROSE-HULMAN.EDU
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: A new improved look at yakking, rec.m-a style
Date: 18 Dec 1992 14:18:16 GMT
Organization: Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology
Reply-To: acharya@HYDRA.ROSE-HULMAN.EDU
NNTP-Posting-Host: hydra.rose-hulman.edu

mary@Cayman.COM (Mary Malmros):
clockface (e.g., standing in a fighting stance, left foot forward, 
attacker in front of you at 12:00, yak yak yak).  It seemed to work
                                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

	there you go with that tibetean angle. what happens if one
	of them moves?

	-mukund
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: geg@beep.mis.semi.harris.com (Gregory E. Garland)
Subject: Re: Judo Esoterica
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 21:29:47 GMT
Organization: Manufacturing Systems, Harris Semicondutor

In article <1gnui0INNjlc@bHARs12c.bnr.co.uk>, dsr@bnr.co.uk (D.S.Riches) writes:
|> In article <1992Dec16.112755.5720@ms.uky.edu> taddiken@ms.uky.edu (scott taddiken) writes:
|> >One of the two fundamental principals of judo is "Maximum Efficiency,
|> >Minimum Effort."  "That sounds exactly like my art!" I hear you exclaim.
|> 
|> [stuff deleted]
|> 
|> >Move around slowly and loosely, as if in some somnolent randori.  Throwee
|> >picks three times to push strongly (or whatever he's supposed to do).
|> >Thrower throws on the third.  In the throws where throwee is supposed to
|> >do that silly overhead strike, instead have him take one grip and make
|> >a huge grab at an over-the-back grip with the other hand.
|> >
|> >I've said enough. :)
|> >----------------------------------------------------------------------
|> >Scott Taddiken, University of Kentucky
|> >
|> 

I'd tend to agree with you that there's too much wasted time and motion
in the way the traditional Judo/Jiujitsu katas are done by most people
nowadays, but I _like_ that "silly overhead strike". :-)  It really 
develops your sense of timing and distance to slide by the attack and
effortlessly spin the uke over onto his back; it's almost an Aikido-ish
like feeling.

|> I'd be interested in some advice on countering this guy anyway.
|> 
|> He always gets a grip by pulling down on my RH with his LH and putting
|> his RH over my back.  He is much stronger than me even though he's only
|> 16 [don't I just hate it!!].  His speciality is counters and with his
|> upper body strength and grip I always get turned by his hands more than
|> anything else.  When he has his grip his body is always at 90 degrees
|> to mine so I only have his RHS to look at (besides the mats, as he's
|> always pulling down).  Taniotoshi and Taitoshi fail miserably due to
|> the hand turns.  The closest I get is a sort of Yama arashi or
|> seiotoshi by means of my long leg getting over his knee and hopping in
|> (but this usually means I fall from a greater height :-)
|> 

I play a lot of people like this, and usually i'll take the underneath grip
they're giving me.  When they reach over the back with, say, their right
hand, i'll reach under their armpit with my left arm as far as i can. I'll
stick my left shoulder in their armpit and grab him around near his left
shoulder blade if they'll let me. Moving him around in a mainly counter-
clockwise fashion should give lots of opprotunities to start some combination
going with a applying some leg technique such as sasae tsuri komi ashi or
kosoto gake to his right leg.

-- 
Greg Garland - Alive, occupying space, and exerting gravitational force

MS 62-024, Harris Semiconductor Sector, PO Bx 883, 
Melbourne  FL 32905.  geg@beep.mis.semi.harris.com

"Never let the facts interfere with your perception of reality."
From: dwarf@lusty.tamu.edu (J. A.Shoemaker)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Ki and science
Date: 16 Dec 1992 16:06:12 GMT
Organization: Los Alamos National Laboratory, NM
NNTP-Posting-Host: lusty.tamu.edu

In article <1992Dec14.093652.3157@siemens.co.at> ek@patty.gud.siemens.co.at (Ernst Krudl) writes:
>I have come across an article where Qigong MAsters had their external
>Qi investigated by scientific methods. This was done in CHina, I believe.
>One Qigong Master was found to radiate fine particles, the other ultrared
>(not infrared, the other side of red) radiation. The article did not give
>details on the equipment used. 
   I don't think that what you say is possible. I am a physicist by training
   (nuclear physics) and there is no way a person can "radiate" detectable
   particles from his body without being killed by the radiation. (radiation
   is isotropic so that if there is something coming out you can detect you can
   bet that there is something staying inside that you cannot. 

   I have no idea what this  ultrared radiation that you are talking about is 
   supposed to be. Is it ultraviolet? Doubtful since the person would die of 
   cancer. Is it lower wavelength than red? Radio waves maybe. I can 
   understand where he could produce infrared or even radio waves since those
   are within the energy realms of biological proceses.

   Just goes to show that most of what you hear is suspect. 

   My perception of chi/ki is biomechanical. Chi is learning to apply
   your physical self in a manner more efficiently than otherwise you would
   The sensations of chi have to do with feeling the realignment of your
   biological processes, such as improved blood flow and muscle coordination.
   My opinion of applications of chi at a distance is the same as my 
   impressions of other "psychic" phenomenon at a distance, skeptical.
   I am more impressed with the Great Randi's attempts to show how attepmts
   to show their "powers" can be done equally well by a stage magician.

>I wonder if there are investigations of that kind known to anybody in more
>detail or if there are done any in Western states.
>Once some classes of QI expression are identified on an accepted level,
>biofeedback training might accelerate the investigation.
>I personally would like this kind of serious game, put some hardware in 
>my PC, the sensors on the other side of the room, and see if I can reach
>any.
>So I suggest the Qi masters should provide their Qi, and the siencemasters
>their equipment.
>
>Ernst Krudl, Vienna, Austria (ek@patty.gud.siemens.co.at)



			The Evil Dwarf from Hell

dwarf@lusty.tamu.edu
What do I know, after 12 years of MA, I am still a white belt.
From: taddiken@ms.uky.edu (scott taddiken)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: stranglehold
Summary: Warfie knows what a stranglehold is.
Date: 15 Dec 92 16:16:01 GMT
    <1992Dec12.013515.6182@desire.wright.edu>
Organization: University Of Kentucky, Dept. of Math Sciences

In article <1992Dec12.013515.6182@desire.wright.edu> jchristian@desire.wright.edu writes:
>
>If you've never experienced a really good stranglehold, try to get someone to
>perform it on you.  If you feel like your throat's being mangled after just one
>second, then the other person is doing it right.
>

Warfie is more than capable of defending himself, but might not this time out
of humility.  Insinuating that Warfie hasn't ever experienced a really good
stranglehold is like insinuating that Germans drink watered down beer.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Scott Taddiken, University of Kentucky
From: azw@aber.ac.uk (Andrew Michael Woodward)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: thrust versus slash -- a SEAL's response
Date: 18 Dec 92 08:09:53 GMT
Organization: University of Wales, Aberystwyth

>>> >> Expert MA knife fighters will _typically_ slash, not thrust.  Thrusting
>
>	Only if the 'expert MA knife fighter' has no idea what he is doing.
>
>chris
>
>	

This is a seriously dangerous mistake to make. One very effective use of a 
knife involves short slashes to the hands and arms to disable the defensive
capability of the opponent. Only then, when it is completely safe to do so,
will the attacker close for the finish.
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts