From: chrz@tellabs.com (Peter Chrzanowski)
Newsgroups: soc.women,alt.feminism,soc.men
Subject: Re: Self Appreciation (was: Re: Elle MacPherson causes rape?)
Date: 19 Nov 92 01:08:10 GMT
Article-I.D.: tellab5.1992Nov19.010810.6250
Distribution: usa
Organization: Tellabs, Inc.

In article <1992Nov18.153348.6594@mr.med.ge.com>, wendy@sundown.mil.wi.us writes:
> Peter Chrzanowski (chrz@tellabs.com) wrote:
> >  
> > Has someone made claims of superiority?  Where, when?  Or do you mean
> > that because I consider this book is not only hateful but also laughably
> > bad then I must be a racist, sexist pig?
> > 
> 
> Peter,
> 
> This is turning into a flamewar. 

I discussed a BOOK.  I attacked a BOOK as hateful and badly written.
I did NOT attack you or your attributes.
    
 
> You are showing exactly how males act by having to win this disagreement.

If expressing my opinions is "winning" then I guess I've won.  Since you've
expressed yours as well, then I guess you've also won.  

Are you trying to put this into a "win/lose" framework?  If so, why?

And tell us, please, exactly how DO males act?

> You want to win???? OK, You win! You can now go off and say that you won.

Where/when did I ever express a desire to "win" ?  Why the nastiness?  
I'm sure I didn't say anything about YOU (or where you can go), only about
a certain BOOK.

> You may well be a racist, sexist pig.  I don't know you well enough to say. 
> Maybe someone else here on the net could enlighten us.

I may be a wife beater or a rapist ... perhaps someone could enlighten us.

I was responding to :
>  "I suppose you believe in everything she says is a myth. 
>   I would expect that as it maintains your superiority".

As though by saying this book was trash I was claiming superiority either 
for myself or for my gender and/or race.

I made no claims of superiority.  For that matter, I don't "believe in
everything she says is a myth."  Actually, I don`t believe in any of it.

From the book, "Women's Reality" (by Anne Schaef)  :
THE FIRST MYTH is that the White Male System is the only thing that exists...
THE SECOND MYTH is that the White Male System is innately superior... 
THE THIRD MYTH is that the White Male System knows and understands everything...
THE FOURTH MYTH is that it is possible to be totally logical, rational,
and objective"

I don't believe in the existence of a "White Male System".  Certainly a
thing which does not exist can neither be "innately superior" nor can
it "know and understand everything".  And I've never heard anyone other
than a certain Startrek character claim that it is possible to be totally
logical, rational, and objective (but that's hardly an excuse for being
illogical and irrational).  Thus, I believe in zero of her four "myths".

To me, statements like these appear to be personal attacks:
> "most males will not understand ... you certainly proved that......"
and
> "I would expect that [of you] as it maintains your superiority.

Was it your intent to attack me personally just because I disagreed 
about the worth of a book?  If this be "flamewar," who is flaming?

> I will say this. You are looking at this from one side only. I am starting
> to see it from the other side. Whether you believe it or not, women are 
> looked down upon in this society. Very few men treat them as equals. 
> 

This is an assertion which presumably reflects your beliefs, and perhaps
your subjective experience.  While obviously everyone has a right to their
own beliefs, to convince others it is necessary to present some evidence.


> I will no longer discuss the book with you. If you want to discuss 
> transexual issues, I will. But I think it's useless for us to continue
> discussing the book. 

If "discussing the book" means more personal attacks on me, or sweeping
generalizations and/or  attacks upon my entire gender, then I agree. If 
you want to talk about THIS BOOK then I hope you'll do so. 
Xref: sparky soc.women:19725 alt.feminism:4553 soc.men:19409