HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: soc.history,soc.culture.yugoslavia
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 00:47:26 -0400 
From: Radu Eugen Edelstein <re0x+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Comment on Material From Trudjman's Book

>The truth is that the camp was organized as a ``labor camp'' with
>many field and factory units. To the camp individually and mostly
>in small groups of tens or one hundred persons, tens of thousands
>of unfortunate persons were brought but also released and shipped
>to labor camps in Germany.


Does anybody know what German "labor camps" is the Croatian
President reffering to ?  If my feelings are confirmed by an
answer I believe it is an act of malevolent insensitivity to use such
a remark.
Rad
From: ehudon@reed.edu (Elizabeth Hudon)
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Misconceptions similar to Richard III
Date: 23 Aug 92 06:51:41 GMT
Article-I.D.: reed.1992Aug23.065141.5607
Organization: Reed College, Portland, OR

This posting is prompted by a recent reading of Josephine Tey's _The Daughter
of Time_. (In which a fictional Scotland Yard detective debunks the image
of England's Richard III as the murderer of his two nephews.)

The book got me thinking about other historical misconceptions, mysteries,
and misrepresentations--particularly in British history. I'm sure there
must be other instances out there, but I can't recall any as sensational
or as prominent as the Tudor disinformation regarding Richard.

My hope is that someone (or several someones) in this newsgroup can recall
other incidents.
Newsgroups: soc.history
From: gadfly@cbnewsi.cb.att.com (Gadfly)
Subject: Re: England since 1688
Organization: AT&T
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 17:09:30 GMT
Summary: What a difference a few years make.

In article <1992Aug18.115850.10272@neptune.inf.ethz.ch>,
cohen@cumuli.vmsmail.ethz.ch (Mark Cohen) writes:
>                          ... The Glorious Revolution was peaceful in
> England consisting of William landing in Devon with some troops and
> marching mostly unopposed to London... 

Although just 3 years earlier the very popular Duke of Monmouth
attempted a similar coup, but his support and his army quickly
evaporated, and he was captured and executed, this latter none too
cleanly.

               *** ***
Ken Perlow   ***** *****
19 Aug 92   ****** ******   2 Fructidor An CC
            *****   *****   gadfly@ihlpa.ATT.COM
             ** ** ** **
...L'AUDACE!   *** ***   TOUJOURS DE L'AUDACE!  ENCORE DE L'AUDACE!
Newsgroups: soc.history
From: fester@island.COM (Mike Fester)
Subject: Re: Lehi and nazies
Organization: /usr/local/rn/organization
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 16:31:02 GMT

In article <1992Aug10.213907.23689@acuson.com> miklg@acuson.com (Michael Goldman ) writes:
>kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay) writes:
>
>>In article <92916@bu.edu> gene@cs.bu.edu (Gene Itkis) writes:
>
[Stuff about collaborating Jewish leaders deleted]

>>The difference, perhaps, was that some of the Jewish leaders managed to
>>dance the fenceposts, keeping the Nazis relatively happy while sabotaging
>>their efforts whenever they could get away with it. As I recall, Vilna was
>>noted as an example of that sort.
>
>	I recall a Jewish collaborator/leader like the one Mr. Itkis recalls.
>	My recollection is that he, like the Lodz ghetto leader wasn't aware
>	of the ultimate fate at first, and when he did realize that there
>	was no "so far and no further" for the Nazis he felt that his efforts
>	had only made life easier for the Nazis; hence suicide.  This came up in
>	a documentary on the Lodz ghetto, where people simply didn't understand
>	or want to believe that they were all destined to die.  The leader
>	kept saying 'If we don't cooperate withe the Nazis, it will only get worse.'

While not a Jewish leader, there was a prominant Jewish scientist named
Warburg (sorry, I forget his first name) who quite openly and apparantly
happily collaborated with the Nazis. He was a renowned biochemist, and
Hitler became convinced that he might be able to do some research into 
"immortality". I believe he was at one point accused of doing ersearch on 
humans, but I can't recall if anything was ever proven.

Mike
-- 
Disclaimer - These opiini^H^H damn! ^H^H ^Q ^[ .... :w  :q  :wq  :wq! ^d  X ^?
exit X Q  ^C ^? :quitbye  CtrlAltDel   ~~q  :~q  logout  save/quit :!QUIT
^[zz ^[ZZZZZZ ^H  man vi ^@  ^L  ^[c  ^# ^E ^X ^I ^T ? help  helpquit ^D  ^d 
man help ^C ^c help exit ?Quit ?q CtrlShftDel "Hey, what does this button d..."
Newsgroups: soc.history,soc.culture.nordic
From: cash@convex.com (Peter Cash)
Subject: Re: Vikings (Berserkers, mushrooms,missile weapons)
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1992 20:03:55 GMT
Organization: The Instrumentality
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

In article <16iainINNsli@agate.berkeley.edu> tedrick@whistle.Berkeley.EDU (Tom Tedrick) writes:
...[ about berserkers and 'shrooms]
>I would agree with the above, based on my own observations. I've long
>been sceptical about the mushroom theory. On the other hand, there is
>a long history of drugs being given to soldiers before battle (Tienanmen
>Square also, according to rumor).

Yes, there's a long tradition of _stories_ about this. But are they true? I
notice it's always the enemy that drugs his hapless minions so they attack
with fanatical frenzy--our boys just have a nip of bourbon to give 'em
courage.

I'd like to hear some corroboration of these stories--until I do, I'm going
to continue to doubt them. One reason I doubt them is that there aren't
that many drugs that would have the desired effects (rage, great strength,
etc.). Mostly, drugs make you unfit to be a soldier--so called
"psychedelics" will cause confusion (and fascination with such interesting
details as the wood grain on one's rifle stock); opiates cause somnolence,
and stimulants like cocaine make one euphoric (and much too happy to kill).

I'm not saying that there aren't drugs that might sometimes make a soldier
into a better warrior--just that they're not commonly known and available,
and not very reliable. I think it's much more logical to suppose that we
commonly underestimate the human potential for bestiality, and that we
don't need a pharmacological explanation for it.

>Enough time has passed for the "berserkers rage" to have been selected
>out of most of the Nordic population perhaps, but you can still detect
>its traces if you are fortunate enough to have some appropriate subjects
>available for purposes of observation :-) Also, I think women carry the 
>gene also, though it has a different effect on their behavior.

The "berserker phenomenon" is a documented fact: sometimes, people under
extreme stress will acquire super-human strength, and will focus all their
attention on the task at hand--be it killing, or single-handedly lifting a
car off a child.
-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
             |      Die Welt ist alles, was Zerfall ist.     |
Peter Cash   |       (apologies to Ludwig Wittgenstein)      |cash@convex.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Newsgroups: soc.history,soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.jewish
From: josip@src.umd.edu (Josip Loncaric)
Subject: Re: What makes Croatian culture superior to that of Serbs and Jews?
Followup-To: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Organization: Systems Research Center, Maryversity of Uniland, College Park
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 14:40:29 GMT

In article <1992Aug18.052416.19351@cs.yale.edu> pavlovic-milan@CS.YALE.EDU (Milan Pavlovic) writes:
>.... Yet the Croats continue to deny any policy of genocide 
>against Serbs and Jews in WWII? WHY? What makes you so superior that you can
>attempt to wipe out whole nations and then try to deny it?
>
>Milan 

Mr. Pavlovic, you are charging at windmills.  Ustashe policy of genocide 
was criminal and Croats know it -- I have certainly said so many times.
But your posting's logic is that

(WWII Ustashe) = (Croats in general in WWII) = (Croats in general today)

which is blatantly false because

(1) Croats had resisted Ustashe in WWII
(2) Croats today know what Ustashe did and reject it.

Now, we can argue ad infinitum about this, but the key point I'd like to
make is that peaceful coexistence and negotiated protection for all
groups was precluded by Milosevic's decision to push for war and "all
Serbs in one state".  To get war, his media used WWII-based arguments
and criminally constructed innuendo that the present Croatian leadership,
consisting of people who resisted Ustashe in WWII and won, *are* Ustashe.
Your posting shows how successful this warmongering propaganda was.

Josip

P.S. I'm tired of this subject...  and so are most readers...

Xref: sparky soc.history:7342 soc.culture.yugoslavia:7961
From: fsars@acad3.alaska.edu (Allen R Sparks)
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Re: Roman trivia
Date: 12 Aug 92 17:46:53 GMT
Organization: University of Alaska Fairbanks

In article <8154@sirius.ucs.adelaide.edu.au>, nick@iagu.itd.adelaide.edu.au (Nick Falkner) writes:
> I would say that your local newpaper is about to lead a movement against 
> carnivorous blondes and is doing some 'Mutlu'-style preparation.

You don't say!!  Those nice Turks actually killed animals and ATE
them?  === Al Sparks
Newsgroups: soc.history
From: jmc@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (John McCarthy)
Subject: Re: 50 Years Ago: Wednesday, 19 August, 1942
Reply-To: jmc@cs.Stanford.EDU
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University
	<1992Aug20.171146.1241@compu.com>
Date: 21 Aug 92 09:38:30

There are plenty of failed military missions, and often when a mission
fails somebody raises dark suspicions.  In a raid like Dieppe, the
most obvious suspicion is that somehow the Germans found out about it
in advance.  I believe that because the raid involved a large number
of Canadians, its failure has been blamed on British disregard for
Canadian lives, but I forget the details of the accusations.
--
John McCarthy, Computer Science Department, Stanford, CA 94305
*
He who refuses to do arithmetic is doomed to talk nonsense.
From: meyer@brahma.edsg.hac.com (Mike Meyer)
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Civil War:  Battle Hymn of the Republic
Date: 12 Aug 92 21:23:31 GMT
Reply-To: meyer@tcville.HAC.COM (Mike Meyer)
Organization: Hughes Aircraft Co., El Segundo, CA


Can anybody here either fill me in or point me to a reference about the
origin of the song "Battle Hymn of the Republic?"

When was it written?  Did it pre-date the civil war?  Was it written as
a propaganda song for the war?   Where was it first published or heard?

Who is this Steffe-Howe person, anyway?

The song "John Brown's Body" is a variant on the Battle Hymn; which came
first?  Was the melody already around (like "The Star Spangled Banner") or
was it composed?

Any particularly inspiring little stories about it, a la "The Star Spangled
Banner?"


Thanks in advance,

Mike Meyer
Mike Meyer				meyer@tcville.HAC.COM
Image and Signal Processing Lab		
Hughes Aircraft EDSG, El Segundo CA
"Shit happens, but it doesn't *just* happen." -- The Karma Police
Newsgroups: soc.history
From: pdunn@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Patrick L Dunn)
Subject: John Brown's Body
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 06:48:12 GMT

This song is attributed to Thomas B. Bishop, J. E. Greenleaf of the Boson Light 
Artillery, and to
a man named Gilmore who played it before the 12th Massachusetts Volunteer
Infantry.  Probalby the most popular verse was "We'll Hang Jeff Davis from a
sour apple tree."

The words to John Brown's Body:

John Brown's body lies a mouldering in the grave
John Brown's body lies a mouldering in the grave
John Brown's body lies a mouldering in the grave
His soul is marching on.

Chorus: Glory, Glory Hallelujah!
        Glory, Glory Hallelujah!
        Glory, Glory Hallelujah!
        His soul is marching on.

He's gone to be a soldier in the army of the Lord.
His soul is marching on.

John Brown's knapsack is strapped upon his back.
His soul is marching on.

His pet lambs will meet him on the way.
And they'll go marching on.

John Brown died that the slaves might be free
His soul is marching on.

We'll hang Jeff Davis from a sour apple tree
As we go marching on.

Now for the Union let's give three rousing cheers
As we go marching on.


PDunn
Newsgroups: soc.history,rec.arts.books
From: packer@amarna.gsfc.nasa.gov (Charles Packer)
Subject: Re: E.W. - Anastasia did survive!
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.4-b1  
Organization: Dept. of Independence
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 10:48:00 GMT

In article <1992Aug12.202332.13487@cs.ucla.edu>, reiher@ficus.cs.ucla.edu (Peter Reiher) writes...
>A recent book by a Soviet author who, for the first time, had access to
>materials hidden away in Russian archives, including Nicholas II's
>personal diaries and documents relating to the execution, is supposed to 
>pretty much nail the lid shut on the possibility of any of the Tsar's 
>children survived.  I got this information only from a review of the book, 



This is the same author who was on the "Today" show and said he 
believed there were survivors! And another book review, in "Book
World" of the Washington Post (Aug. 2) went on at length about how
his book reaches the conslusion that "not only might Anastasia
have survived, but so too might her brother..."

The book in question is "The Last Tsar", by Edvard Radzinsky.


Newsgroups: soc.history,soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: josip@src.umd.edu (Josip Loncaric)
Subject: Re: Irony continues in our history
Organization: Systems Research Center, Maryversity of Uniland, College Park
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 17:01:42 GMT

In article <1992Aug12.104602.14659@husc3.harvard.edu> stojanov@husc10.harvard.edu (Milan Stojanovic) writes:
>>In article <1992Aug11.184018.322@src.umd.edu> josip@src.umd.edu (Josip Loncaric) writes:
>>>
>>>On WWII in former Yugoslavia: A brief but clear chapter in:
>>>
>>>Wayne S. Vucinich: Contemporary Yugoslavia
>>>                   Univ. Cal. Press, 1969,
>>>                   Call Number: DR370.V8
>
> [...]
>
>I would ask now Mr. Loncaric to provide us with the relevant part from
>Vucinich'book where the ethnical composition of partisans is described, 
>so we can discus it further.  [...]

(1) You are free to look up the reference I've provided, but note that
    I've described the presentation therein as clear but brief.

(2) The ethnic composition of Partizans would be discussed in a more
    extensive presentation of WWII in former Yugoslavia.  I'd suggest
    you look up relevant entries in "Enciklopedija Jugoslavije".

(3) If you have a point to make, make it: you are completely free to
    claim whatever you wish.  But note that others may remain unconvinced,
    depending on what you say.
    
>Regards,
>
>Milan N. Stojanovic
>

Josip
From: jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin)
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: antisemitism in Eastern Europe
Date: 14 Aug 92 17:26:58 GMT
Reply-To: jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin)
Organization: COMANDOS Project, Glesga Yoonie

krzystek@milton.u.washington.edu (Jerzy Krzystek) wrote:
> You seem, however, to mix up two different periods (a lot of people do that):
> before 1939 and after 1939, as if nothing happened that year. Although the
> pre-war antisemitism could be the fertile ground for the behavior of some
> parts of populations towards the Jews during the war, in my opinion most of
> this behavior was purely opportunistic. The Nazis showed the way, and by a
> general brutalization of the life in the region incredibly lowered the price
> of a human life.  We have seen similar behavior in other parts of the world: 
> two (or more) communities seem to live peacefully for centuries and then
> when there is some trigger (usually a war) they jump to each other's throats.

True enough for most of Eastern Europe, but what about the Ukraine?
Petliura's pogrom campaign long predated the Nazis, and provided them
with a well-organized bunch of collaborators ready to help when they
invaded.

-- 
--  Jack Campin    room G092, Computing Science Department, Glasgow University,
17 Lilybank Gardens, Glasgow G12 8RZ, Scotland   TEL: 041 339 8855 x6854 (work)
INTERNET: jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk or via nsfnet-relay.ac.uk    FAX: 041 330 4913
BANG!net: via mcsun and uknet     BITNET: via UKACRL    UUCP: jack@glasgow.uucp
From: turrell@violet.berkeley.edu (David Turrell)
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Re: Roman trivia
Date: 13 Aug 1992 06:47:07 GMT
Organization: Cobol Pacific University
NNTP-Posting-Host: violet.berkeley.edu

In article <1992Aug10.221526.24281@acuson.com>
miklg@acuson.com (Michael Goldman ) writes:

>A local newspaper has a sort of "trivial facts" column and they mentioned
>two that seemed to me rather odd.  I wonder if anyone knows the truth
>or not of the following two:
>
>1.  Romans were vegetarians until the time of the emperors,
>
>2.  Prostitutes in ancient Rome were required by law to wear blonde wigs.

I saw the item about Romans being vegetarians in L.M. Boyd's "The Grab
Bag" column in last Sunday's SF Chronicle, but not the item about
prostitutes.

The Romans would be unlikely practitioners of Vegetarianism as a
cultural doctrine, although some might have abstained from meat by
choice or from want. I'm not aware of any dietary laws that would
indicate fear of flesh borne diseases or parasites, nor was there the
sense of sympathetic feeling towards animals that would have outlawed
meat-eating on moral grounds. Italian farmers did turn more to
ranching, although animal husbandry had been part of their agriculture
all along, after grain became unprofitable because so much was
supplied cheaply from the provinces as tribute. But Rome's empire
building began two centuries before the end of the republic, so that
wouldn't explain a sudden urge for Bar-B-Que at the establishment of
the empire.

The prostitutes of Rome, the Meretrices, were required to wear yellow
wigs or to dye their hair as part of a distinctive dress, required in
an attempt at regulation. The original Roman indignance at this type
of "service" did modify considerably with the influx of slaves from
the conquered provinces. It was a remarkably profitable profession;
the client had to give a good number of asses in payment and got just
a piece of one in return.

-David
Xref: sparky soc.history:7232 soc.culture.yugoslavia:7871
Newsgroups: soc.history,soc.culture.yugoslavia
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 01:08:23 -0400 
From: Radu Eugen Edelstein <re0x+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: <none>

What is the reason for Trudjman to quote the former inmate's
opinion on Jewish religion and character ?  Why did he feel it
was needed to include in his book such gross antisemitic remarques ?
Does Trudjman agree with the testimonies presented in his book ?
Are ther testimonies given by Jewish inmates that he quotes ?

I believe the two postings raise these questions and many others.
Definitely more information about Trudjman's book and his
opinions are needed, but the two passages in his book are signs that
many would interpret as antisemitism on the behalf of the Croatian
leader.
Rad
Newsgroups: soc.history,soc.culture.japan
From: jewell@mace.cc.purdue.edu (Larry Jewell)
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Re: What happened in 1419?
Keywords: "we shall not see them relit in our lifetime"
Date: 21 Aug 92 03:40:52 GMT
Organization: Purdue University

In article <171m7kINNetf@agate.berkeley.edu> sachs@lhasa.berkeley.edu (Rainer Sachs) writes:

>3. By just reversing pairs you get 1914.  I assume
>your friend knows 1914 as the famous year in
>which England for once had truly superb summer weather
>(well at least during May, June and July).

But don't Europeans traditionally take their holidays in August?  August that 
year was great, weather-wise, for taking large numbers of young men on outings.

(As I understand it, except for an occasional shower of artillery shells, there
was almost no precipitation.)

Larry J


-- 
#Larry W. Jewell (ex-USN)     WWII-L Listowner    jewell@mace.cc.purdue.edu # 
#"Sunday's horoscope is noteworthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly#
#unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life." #
#--"Your Horoscope," L.A. Evening Herald Express, Saturday, Dec. 6, 1941.   #
Newsgroups: soc.history
From: emma@Csli.Stanford.EDU (Emma Pease)
Subject: Re: England since 1688
Organization: Stanford University CSLI
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 16:01:15 GMT

In <1992Aug18.115850.10272@neptune.inf.ethz.ch> cohen@cumuli.vmsmail.ethz.ch (Mark Cohen) writes:

>Anne did not marry. The Elector of Hanover (George I of England) became king
>of England in 1714 after the death of Anne. He was the great-grandson of
>James I (and VI of Scotland).

Actually Anne did marry but had no surviving children.  James the II
(VII of Scotland), the king deposed, also had a son, James (aka the
Old Pretender), who was barred from the throne.

-ep


Newsgroups: soc.history
From: ewillims@unix1.tcd.ie (Emma Williams)
Subject: Re: E.W. - Anastasia did survive!
Organization: Trinity College, Dublin
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 15:19:32 GMT

In <1992Aug11.200113.16489@porthos.cc.bellcore.com> sad@dasher.uucp (22430s-downie) writes:


>Emma:  Could you keep me posted on anything you hear about the
>Romanov family.  I read everything I can .  In fact I have "The
>Riddle of Anna Anderson" by Kurth sitting right on my desk.  The
>book is very convincing, but it said that Nicholas II was shot in
>the head first.  Tatiana to protect Anastasia fell on top of her.  After
>all the shooting was done.  Anastasia moaned, at this point the
>soldiers decided to bayonnet her instead of wasting the time to reload. 
>During this chaotic time a soldier named Tschaikovsy was said to 
>have saved Anastasia.  They eventually married and she had his son.
>Tschaikovsky died from an illness shortly after and Anastasia tried
>to throw herself off a bridge so the story goes. . . . . 

>If what you heard is true, than there could be a 
>Romanov/Tschaikovsky child still
>alive.
>I feel sorry for Anna Romanov Tschaikovksy Anderson;she led a very tormented
>life.  

>There is another book called "The Last Tsar".  I forgot who wrote it,
>but the author was on the TODAY show.  He said it was possible that
>Alexi was still alive.    

>If you hear anything please let me know.

>Sharon
>908 669-3882
>dasher!sad

>P.S.  Anna Anderson was very bitter that Rasputin was murdered.


i	If I hear any more on this story I'll post it up to the group
so you and anyone else who is interested can read it!:)

Newsgroups: soc.history