HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: hughes@dogwood.botany.uga.edu (wayne)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science
Subject: Re: Psychohistory
Date: 10 Apr 92 05:59:29 GMT
Organization: Botany Department - U of Georgia, Athens
Cc: hughes

In article <1992Apr09.160916.14693@onetouch.COM> csmith@onetouch.COM (Craig Smith) writes:
>I have a major gripe with Foundation's Psychohistory.
>It is based on the gas laws, which say that while the actions of a single
>atom are not predictable, a large enough quantity of gas is highly predictable.
>Asimov took this and applied it to people to make pychohistory.
>The problem is, that every major turning point was predicted by Harry Seldon,
>but the actual change was accomplished, not by masses of humanity, but
>by a single person!
>

    1.  The solutions to *problems*  were accomplished by individuals who
	understood the structure of society as predicted by psychohistory.
	The structure of society as predicted by psychohistory was 
	motivated by the masses of humanity, except in the case of the
	Mule.  And later, by the Foundations, which understood how to
	manipulate it.   

	The stage was set by the masses.  The storyline could be mani-
	pulated to some extent by those individuals and small groups
	who understood it.

    2.  Asimov presented psychohistory largely as a serious proposition,
	(at least in terms of the stories).  We were seduced into 
	believing that it was real and that the events which occurred
	as predicted were not merely coincidental.  I've always
	wondered if it wasn't a joke on his readers.


	wayne
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science
From: jdnicoll@watyew.uwaterloo.ca (James Davis Nicoll)
Subject: Re: Dyson Sphere
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1992 00:28:31 GMT

In article <1992Apr11.042042.12230@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> tbmg9061@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Thomas B MacIukenas) writes:
>
>You can add this to the lengthy list of problems with Dyson spheres:
>
>Some kind of system is needed to hold the thing up.  Spinning doesn't
>work for spheres, since the top and bottom will cave in.

	What about stepped-ringworlds, each with a slightly smaller radius?
Granted, you still need some sort of obital correction system and either the
rings must rotate at different rates or have different gravities (The low 
centrifugal effect rings need to be air-tight or air-free). The polar rings 
would recieve light at high angles which might be a problem.
   
>And you
>can't use a system of free flyers, all of which are in stable orbits,
>because you could never work out a system of interlocking orbits which
>would guarantee no collisions (and that's ignoring gravitational effects
>between the flyers!). 

	Perhaps a small number of collisions per year are acceptable in
dyson spheres, just as they are in our transit systems. Zero risk society
appears unlikely to me.

>(radiation pressure systems won't work[...]

	Why?

								James Nicoll
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science
From: nickh@CS.CMU.EDU (Nick Haines)
Subject: Re: Parallel Universes
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 92 16:44:13 GMT
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon University
	<1992Apr15.215637.8148@ugle.unit.no>
Originator: nickh@VOILA.VENARI.CS.CMU.EDU

In article <1992Apr15.215637.8148@ugle.unit.no> stig@Lise.Unit.NO (Stig Hemmer) writes:

   This question isn't just directed to Jonathan but to anyone who think
   they know the answer.

Me! Me!

   If I have understood things correctly the MWI people state that
   nothing really significant happens when you do a measurement.

Right. By making a measurement you can determine which universe you
are in (or, rather, exclude a set of universes from the set you know
yourself to be in).

   If this is so, how does they explain the recent experiments where
   measurement one place are affected by whether or not a measurement is
   made elsewhere?

The result of both measurements is determined by the `choice' of
universe made at an earlier time (ie by which universe was selected
when the two particles in the EPR experiment were interacting).

Nick Haines nickh@cs.cmu.edu

(I can't remember the math of the EPR, so I could be wrong).
From: psga@acad2.alaska.edu
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.marketplace
Subject: re: wanted
Date: 11 Apr 92 16:56:37 GMT
Organization: University of Alaska


I am interested in acquiring any hardback copies (ex-lib copies) of any of the
Heinlein juvenile novels. i.e. FARMER IN THE SKY, RED PLANET, SPACE SHIP
GALILEO, SPACE CADET, STAR BEAST.
I can be contacted at.


                                      Address
                                     G.Antoni
                                     HC33,Box3070
                                     Wasilla. Alaska 99687





















lo
l
lo
exit




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yes
[yes]


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post
dir
From: ggurman@cory.Berkeley.EDU (Gail Gurman)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.marketplace
Subject: WANTED:  Baycon Memberships
Date: 6 Apr 92 14:46:42 GMT
Article-I.D.: pasteur.1992Apr6.144642.23094
Distribution: ca
Organization: University of California, at Berkeley

We need two memberships for Baycon.  If you have one (or two) to sell,
please send email to ggurman@cory.Berkeley.EDU 
		  or repnomar@leland.Stanford.EDU

Thanks.

Gail and 
/Janet
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.marketplace
From: azahn@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Anna L. Zahn)
Subject: Space Gamer Magazine Wanted  Issue  #48
Summary: Wanted Space Gamer Mag Issue #48
Keywords: magazine,wanted,space-gamer
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1992 18:16:33 GMT


I'm looking to purchase issue #48 of this magazine.

Someone had one in a for sale list about a week ago but
I let the article get away.
If you're out there please email me. Thanks

 Anna L. Zahn               /\ |\| |\| /\        Illinois State Water Survey
 Just me speaking, and I am a small minority.    2204 Griffith Drive       
 40 5 59 N Lat. 88 14 30 W Long.                 Champaign, Illinois 61820-7495
 (217)-333-8099                       a-zahn@uiuc.edu OR azahn@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu
-- 
 Anna L. Zahn               /\ |\| |\| /\        Illinois State Water Survey
 Just me speaking, and I am a small minority.    2204 Griffith Drive       
 40 5 59 N Lat. 88 14 30 W Long.                 Champaign, Illinois 61820-7495
 (217)-333-8099                       a-zahn@uiuc.edu OR azahn@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.marketplace
From: wsm26@cas.org (Wayne Mills)
Subject: Books for sale
Organization: Chemical Abstracts Service
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1992 16:13:25 GMT

Here's some SF paperback books I'd like to sell.
The best reasonable offer gets them, buyer pays shipping.  Anyone
interested?

All are in nearly new condition.  No cover creases and mostly smooth 
spines.  Maybe a little wear around the edges of covers here and there.


Piers Anthony:    "Bio of a Space Tyrant", Avon, $3.50 cover price

Chris Claremont:  "Firstflight", Ace, $2.95 cover price

L. Ron Hubbard:   "Mission Earth #9:  Villainy Victorius", Bridge 
                   Publications, $4.95 cover price

L. Ron Hubbard:   "Mission Earth #10: The Doomed Planet", Bridge 
                   Publications, $4.95 cover price

Jean Lorrah:       "ST:TNG Metamorphosis ("The First Giant Novel"), 
                   Pocket Books, $4.95 cover price

William Shatner:  "Tekwar", Ace, $4.50 cover price


I also have a couple other SF books, and also some gothic novels by
Dean R. Koontz, Anne Rice, Stephen King, etc.  If you're interested
I'll put them on a list and send it to you.  One Koontz book is
hardback, all the rest are paperback.

BTW - does anyone know what was Asimov's last published book?  Just
curious...

---------------

    Sam:   What's the good word, Norm?
    Norm:  Plop, plop, fizz, fizz.
    Sam:   Oh no, not the Hungry Heifer...
    Norm:  Yeah, yeah, yeah...
    Sam:   One heartburn cocktail coming up.

---------------
Wayne Mills
BITNET: <wsm26@cas.bitnet>  or  <wsm26%cas.bitnet@cunyvm.cuny.edu>
INTERNET: wsm26@cas.org
UUCP: ...!osu-cis!chemabs!wsm26
From: mjh@cs.utexas.edu (Michael J. Hall)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.marketplace
Subject: Re: Asimov lost
Date: 8 Apr 92 01:09:52 GMT
Organization: U Texas Dept of Computer Sciences, Austin TX
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu


>Who's left?

Clarke and Bradbury...
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Date: Wednesday, 8 Apr 1992 12:32:35 CDT
From: <U19807@uicvm.uic.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.marketplace
Subject: Wanted: BUG JACK BARRON by Norman Spinrad

I'm looking for a good or better quality copy of Norman Spinrad's BUG JACK
BARRON. Except for the shape the book's in,I'm not particular-I'll
consider hardback or paper,original or reprint. Please send information
on the edition of your copy (including condition) and price to the following
address(es) below:

      ** Chris Krolczyk,esq.  * DISCLAIMER: My opinions are in **
      ** Maniac-at-Large      * no way endorsed by the Univer- **
      ** U19807@UICVM.BITNET  * sity of Illinois at Chicago.   **
      ** u19807@uicvm.uic.edu * So there. Nyaah.               **
Organization: Freshman, Architecture, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.marketplace
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1992 18:45:13 -0400 
From: Jackson Tam <jt38+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Star Frontier Minatures

Hi,
Does anyone have unpainted Star Frontiers minatures they want to sell?

Jackson
From: erics@ocf.berkeley.edu (Eric Schaffer)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.marketplace
Subject: SF/Fantasy Books For Sale
Date: 11 Apr 1992 19:48:07 GMT
Organization: ucb
Distribution: na
NNTP-Posting-Host: lightning.berkeley.edu

Science fiction and fantasy books for sale.  

For more details please contact Eric Schaffer at 510 549-0124, or 
send email to 'erics@ocf.berkeley.edu'.
From: sdh5@po.CWRU.Edu (Scott D. Hurley)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.marketplace
Subject: Asimov lost
Date: 6 Apr 92 19:36:19 GMT
Article-I.D.: usenet.1992Apr6.193619.5610
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio, (USA)


Isaac Asimov died this morning, April 6, 1992 A.D.

Who's left?
-- 
Though it will take me to Forever's Rim,
I sail through the reaches of Time's Twilight Dim.
Questing for Knowledge, on Night's Darkest Sea,
Bound for those shores enshrouded by Mystery.  --Thaliaer's Oath
From: yamauchi@cs.rochester.edu (Brian Yamauchi)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.marketplace
Subject: Wanted: Trigon Disunity by Kube-McDowell
Date: 6 Apr 92 21:57:50 GMT
Organization: University of Rochester


I've become a fan of Michael Kube-McDowell after reading
_The_Quiet_Pools_ (and also _Alternities_), and I'm trying to get hold
of a copy of his Trigon Disunity trilogy: _Emprise_, _Enigma_, and
_Empery_ (which have apparently gone out of print).

If you have a copy (in good condition) that you would like to sell, or
know where I could order one, I'd appreciate hearing from you.
--
_______________________________________________________________________________

Brian Yamauchi				Robotics Applications Development
					Boeing Aerospace Operations
yamauchi@cs.rochester.edu		Kennedy Space Center
_______________________________________________________________________________
From: ecl@mtgzy.att.com (Evelyn C Leeper +1 908 957 2070)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.reviews
Subject: THE MISSING MATTER by Thomas R. McDonough
Date: 9 Apr 92 20:37:03 GMT
Organization: University of Alaska Computer Network


                    THE MISSING MATTER by Thomas R. McDonough
                        A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper
			 Copyright 1992 Evelyn C. Leeper

        This book is sitting on my review stack staring at me, saying, "Okay,
   now that you've read me, say something about me."  The problem is I don't
   know what to say.  (All right, you out there who just said, "But you've
   never let that stop you before"; I heard that!)

        Well, I'll start with basics.  This is the third book in the "Next
   Wave" series packaged by Byron Preiss.  Each book consists of a novel based
   on some hard science concept, prefaced by a short science article on the
   subject by Isaac Asimov (though his recently-announced retirement may change
   that), and followed by a somewhat longer science essay by a "real"
   scientist.  The first two novels were RED GENESIS by S. C. Sykes and ALIEN
   TONGUE by Stephen Leigh. Now, somewhat delayed from its originally announced
   release date, is the third volume, THE MISSING MATTER by Thomas
   R. McDonough.

        The science concept behind the novel is that of "black matter," or
   "missing matter." That is, it has been postulated that there isn't enough
   matter in the universe to explain the physical laws.  So where is this
   "missing matter"?  McDonough *seems* to be saying that it's stuck in parallel
   universes and that there are planets traveling between (among?) these
   universes.  I say "seems" because none of this was very clearly stated or
   shown in the novel itself; I conclude this only because of the essays.

        And that may be one of the problems with packaging THE MISSING MATTER
   this way--a perfectly good novel which could stand on its own is turned into
   a novel appearing to illustrate some point in physics, and not to do it very
   well.  The story is that of a Plutonian colony which discovers a planet
   moving towards our solar system and sends a team to explore it.  Once on the
   planet, however, the team finds itself traveling between universes, because
   that's what the planet is doing.  It's a good old-fashioned adventure story,
   with interesting characters (well, okay, the bureaucrat is a bit two-
   dimensional, but think of her as comic relief), and works far better as a
   story if you don't try to learn physics from it.  As with the others in this
   series, if you like the sort of science fiction of the 1950s but with better
   characters and up-to-date (i.e., non-outdated) science, you'll probably
   enjoy THE MISSING MATTER.

   %T      The Missing Matter
   %A      Thomas R. McDonough
   %C      New York
   %D      January 1992
   %I      Bantam Spectra
   %O      paperback, US$4.99
   %G      ISBN 0-553-29364-8
   %P      297pp + 8pp +53pp

Evelyn C. Leeper   |   +1 908 957 2070   |   att!mtgzy!ecl or ecl@mtgzy.att.com
From: csmith@onetouch.COM (Craig Smith)
Subject: ISAAC ASIMOV HAS DIED!!
Organization: MCS/OneTouch, Inc.
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 92 13:28:04 GMT

I just read in the paper this morning that Dr. Isaac Asimov has
passed on.

A moment of silence, please.

-- 
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
::Craig Smith                                             csmith@onetouch.COM::
::Columbus, OH                                      ...!uunet!onetouch!csmith::
::"Life is a fulltime occupation."--Gene Kalman                              ::
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.misc
From: kasprj@vccsouth03.its.rpi.edu (Jim Kasprzak)
Subject: Re: Coolest SF Character (was Re: Even more things vs.things)
Keywords: coolest, sf, character, Blake's 7, Avon, Picard, Cat
Reply-To: kasprj@rpi.edu
Organization: The Big Wedge
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1992 06:22:10 GMT

 
 Even though this is extremely silly, I may as well put my vote in for the
coolest SF character. In my opinion, there's no contest: it's Niven's 
Beowulf Shaeffer. The Stainless Steel Rat makes a good runner-up.
------------------------------------------------------------------
     __  Live from Capitaland, heart of the Empire State...
 ___/  | Jim Kasprzak, computer operator @ RPI, Troy, NY, USA
/____ *| Why can't people stop taking things so seriously? 
     \_| "All I want is to have my peace of mind" - Boston   
      ====  e-mail: kasprj@rpi.edu or kasprzak@mts.rpi.edu 
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.misc,rec.arts.sf-lovers
From: orange@alfred.carleton.ca (Paul Vallee)
Subject: Re: ASIMOV
Organization: Carleton University
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1992 19:48:12 GMT

I heard a great quote from the master on the news, and to anyone who has
the exact phraseology of it, I'd appreciate it if you posted it!

It went a lot like this:
"I'm not afraid of dying, because I never had an idea I didn't write
down."  

I'm eager to know the exact wording, thanks for your help...



orange@ccs.carleton.ca ------- Paul Vallee ---- 542429@acadvm1.uottawa.ca
------------Home: (613)569-1068 --------- Work: (613)995-6921------------
"We have to shout above the din of our Rice Krispies..."     - The Police
"My Canada includes Quebec."  <-- If you believe it, say it!
From: pp8851@sjfc.UUCP (Pamela Principe)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.misc
Subject: Heinlein(Lazarus Long)
Date: 9 Apr 92 19:23:21 GMT
Reply-To: pp8851@sjfc.UUCP (Pamela Principe)
Organization: Saint John Fisher College, Rochester, NY

Important question follows about Heinlein and the Lazarus Long series of
books. Please feel free to post or e-mail.


 





















Why doesn't Lazarus ever go back and get Dora(his great love from _Time 
Enough For Love_? He has the time travel at his disposal. And to me Dora 
was the only woman (besides his mother) that he truely loved without 
reservation. 




Pamela
From: krebs@remus.rutgers.edu (Michael Krebs)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.misc
Subject: Even more things vs.things
Date: 7 Apr 92 03:23:29 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

Ok, since I posted Aliens vs :terminator,predator, robocop and permutations 
of the above. I think I either missed some of the replies or no one posted any
so here goes another one: The Thing (from another world) vs. The blob.
Sure, thing can become anything it touches, but can it overwhelm the blob and
kill it ? could the blob just absorb the thing before the thing got too big?
Would they both just realize that they were meant for each other and get
married? If the latter occured, who'd be best man? (easy:any cthulu god) .
Actually the hardest question is who'd be the bride or groom.

    Also, what about DEEP THOUGHT vs. DATA ?

Finally, who's the coolest S.F. character. Not most powerfull or strongest or
anything like that , just the Coolest Person In Sci-Fi.

My vote goes to either Zaphod Beeblebrox or Han Solo (they're both are just too
cool). Runner-up would have to go to Hudson from Aliens, he got real cool
towards the end ,too bad he got killed.*sigh*

By the way, that proposes another question that has been bugging me since I saw
Aliens. When Ripley went back to get Newt, in the book she encountered Burke
,but not Hudson, he was abducted only a few minutes before Burke ???

If the above was already dealt with already, TOUGH , I'm new to this NewsNet 
thing SO THERE.

    ^^^^        ^^  ^
   I OO I
   I  \ I     AHHHHHGH!!!!!     You know, you look a lot better with makeup
    \<>/                                               -Steve Dallas
    III 
 / \(|)/ \
|   \|/   |
     I
From: ap1i+@andrew.cmu.edu (Andrew C. Plotkin)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.misc
Subject: Re: Denial of Humanity
Date: 15 Apr 92 14:33:45 GMT
 <1992Apr12.200327.17432@midway.uchicago.edu> <1992Apr13.042023.5971@sbcs.sunysb.edu><1992Apr15.005437.16098@hsv3.uucp>
Distribution: usa
Organization: Senior, Math/Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA

Excerpts from netnews.rec.arts.sf.misc: 15-Apr-92 Re: Denial of Humanity
Mike Van Pelt@hsv3.uucp (1893)

>  So, preservation of (their) life is a given.  Hard work,
> well, interstellar travel isn't easy, so either they have this one,
or they stay home glued to the 3V set and don't contact us.

What if they are vacuum-dwellers and just drift around a lot? What if
their technology is advanced enough that they joy-ride? 

> But certainly there would have to be some
> standard of sexual behavior that provided for the propagation of the
> species and the care of the young, whether their system otherwise looks
> anything like any of ours or not.  

    Propagate the species, but not necessarily care for the young --
that's mammalocentrism (:-). For another species, morality might be
"throw all babies in the river and let the strong ones come home in ten
years". Or even "kill and eat all babies after the second". 
    Give *any* standard of behavior and a sufficiently devious SF
writer, and you can probably come up with a species and environment that
will rationally behave that way. (With the obvious exception of
immediate mass suicide -- except that I once wrote this story... never
mind.) Therefore, any absolute galactic morality is going to be so broad
that it will be almost useless as a concept.

> (Of course, much of our current
> society's sexual behavior neither provides for the propagation of the
> species nor for the care of the young.  As Robert Heinlein pointed out,
> this is self-correcting in the long run.)

Really? Both recreational sex and erotic literature (to name two
examples) have been around for millenia, and neither show any signs of
going away. (Despite the best efforts of a vocal minority.)

--Z

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the borogoves..."
Organization: Ryerson Polytechnical Institute
Distribution: na
Date: Wednesday, 8 Apr 1992 14:03:06 EST
From: the Lurker <ACPS7146@RyeVm.Ryerson.Ca>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.misc
Subject: Re: ASIMOV
 <1992Apr7.124133.17876@fwi.uva.nl>

The Toronto Star wrote that the cause of death was kidney failure



Jim.
From: kinnema@wkuvx1.bitnet (Mark Kinney, Attorney at Chaos)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.misc
Subject: Isaac Asimov
Date: 6 Apr 92 18:12:41 GMT
Organization: Western Kentucky University, Bowling Green, KY

For those who may not have heard:

Issac Asimov died this morning of heart and kidney failure.

-- 
Mark Kinney [KINNEMA@WKUVX1.(BITNET)(WKU.EDU)] | Don't just eat a hamburger,
PhoneNet: (502)745-4246	  (Bowling Green, KY)  | eat the HELL out of it!
This has been a test. If this had been an actual emergency, you'd be dead.
Quote of the Week: "Quaker-pop Rice Sparkies and Quaker-pop Wheat Sparkies,
	those delicious, nutritious breakfast cereals shot from guns!"
				-- Negativland, "Guns"
Xref: sparky rec.arts.sf.misc:1302 rec.arts.sf-lovers:1010
From: sacass@unix1.tcd.ie (stephen andrew cass)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.misc,rec.arts.sf-lovers
Subject: Re: ASIMOV
Keywords: asimov, death dealers, foundation
Date: 8 Apr 92 08:44:47 GMT
Organization: Trinity College, Dublin

In <702672044.18388@minster.york.ac.uk> prh-b@minster.york.ac.uk writes:

>wjs@doc.ic.ac.uk (William Joseph Sharp) writes:
>>I heard on the news last night that Isaac Asimov was dead. Can anyone confirm this, or
>>offer any more info, such as why did die? Had heard he was not all that well, but
>>that he's dead ...
>>
>>Bill
>>


>...all in all it's put quite a dampner on the day...

Goodbye Asimov. Thankyou for all the enjoyment you have given me over
the years. Rest well in peace.
Stephen


>-Paul
From: stong@ariel.its.unimelb.EDU.AU (Simon Tong)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.misc
Subject: Re: Coolest SF Character (was Re: Even more things vs.things)
Date: 13 Apr 92 23:47:28 GMT
Organization: University of Melbourne


	Trent 'the Uncatchable' Castanaveras from  _The Long Run_ by D.K.Moran

 Anyone who had gone through what he did and still maintained a sense of humour
 and compassion has to be pretty cool.

 I am dying to know more about him and Denice, when is the third book going to
 come out ?????

 What have you been doing Mr.Moran ?  Hope you are working on the 33 volumes of
 _The Tale of the Continuing Time_.                   

Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.misc,rec.arts.sf.written
From: abb3w@fulton.seas.Virginia.EDU (Arthur Bernard Byrne)
Subject: Re: Isaac Asimov
Organization: University of Virginia
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1992 15:34:22 GMT

In article <1992Apr7.032404.5689@constellation.ecn.uoknor.edu> gmcmanus@reepicheep.gcn.uoknor.edu (Gary McManus) writes:
>Is he really dead, or is this another of Doug's hilarious jokes?

	He is not dead... he has merely ceased to be mortal.
	****SIGH****

AB^2
Xref: sparky rec.arts.sf.misc:1393 rec.arts.sf-lovers:1021