HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: lnh@soliton.physics.arizona.edu (sometimes a Wombat)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: The Marvelous Kit Smart (Was: The Marvelous Mr. E--- )
Date: 7 Oct 92 18:39:21 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Society for the Appreciation of Janni Lee Simner

Heidi Wolf writes of me:
>
>Kit Smart would add:
>
>For he counteracts the powers of darkness by his electrical skin and 
>glaring eyes.
>For he counteracts the Devil, who is death, by brisking about the life.
>For he has the subtlety and hissing of a serpent, which in goodness
>he suppresses.
>For he will not do destruction, if he is well fed, neither will he spit
>without provocation.
>For he is a mixture of gravity and waggery.
>For he can fetch and carry, which is patience in employment.
>For he can jump over a stick, which is patience upon proof positive.
>For he can spraggle upon waggle at the word of command.
>For, tho he cannot fly, he is an excellent clamberer.

For he can creep.

The original whole JUBULO AGNATO (I must have that title misspelled) is
a treat.  It gets very chaotic in places, and by the time he reached
the Jeoffrey section, Smart's antiphonal plan had pretty much broken
down and the texts on opposite pages are best read serially, instead
of interlinearly.  The Jeoffrey section is the best known because,
well, it's the best section.

If you can find it (not easy), it's well worth reading.

	Larry "The uses of insanity" Hammer
--

LNH@physics.arizona.edu     \   What can be seen, heard, and learned, 
idle singer of an empty day  \  this I prize. -- Heraclitus, #13
From: mattb@ctron.com (Matt Brown)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Exit Shakespeare....(enter Chaucer)
Date: 6 Oct 92 16:22:16 GMT
Reply-To: mattb@olympus.ctron.com (Matt Brown)
Organization: Cabletron Systems INc.

(Francis Muir) writes:

>John Barlett had it right. The only person he personally quoted in his 
>*Familiar Quotations* was Chaucer:

>	Go, litel bok...

>There is no other author in English English whose message is so populist
>and unphilosophical -- the two qualities that are essential for wide 
>acceptance in the British Isles.

My only disagreement with your excellent point is that Chaucer is far from
unphilosophical; it is just that the philosophical underpinnings do not
overpower the the story (with a few exceptions I'd need to research to
remember). In addition, there is a strong theological core to his work,
in spite of the scathing attacks on the various clergy. But none of this
dims the beautiful poetry and earthy narrative that brings to life each
of the pilgrims in the _Canterbury Tales_. Unfortunately, the _Tales_ are
so rich that his other works are often neglected, also in part because
they are not as "accessible" today. How many Literature students are even
aware of his "T and C" pre-dating Shakespeare's, for example?

>and the Prologue to the *Canterbury Tales* is a wonderful introduction
>to the tongue and manners of our times in so far as they do not change.

And might it be possible to find modern analogues to the Canterbury Pilgrims?

Pardoner = Jimmy Swaggert
Wife of Bath = ?
Miller = ?
Knight = ?
Nun's-Priest = ?
Friar = ?
...

Matt
From: Christopher.Carne@brunel.ac.uk (Christopher J Carne)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Once I put this book down, I could not pick it up again.
Date: 12 Oct 92 13:50:50 GMT
Organization: Brunel University, West London, UK

In article <CB.92Oct7150126@tamarack13.timbuk> cb@tamarack13.timbuk (Chris Brewster) writes:
>Eric J. Olson writes:
>
>   the one that
>   really killed me was Kuhn's "landmark" book in science, _On the Nature
>   of Scientific Revolutions_ or some such.  I was supposed to read it
>   for a class; I couldn't even get through the first chapter without
>   skipping paragraphs randomly.  He just drones on and on, repeating
>   himself for page after page without making much of a point.
>
>Actually he's making a relatively simple (to describe) but deep and
>powerful point about the nature of change.  Once you get his schema,
>further description might seem a bit redundant.  Kuhn's work has
>inspired lots of theory in other fields, I suspect including Stephen Jay
>Gould's concept of "punctuated evolution".  (I have to defend this book
>as it's one of my all-time favorites.  The title is "The Structure of
>Scientific Revolutions".)
>
>Chris Brewster
>cb@cray.com

Well, "The Structure of Scientific Revolutions" may be a landmark, but hey
its a bit long in the tooth by now, Both the philosophy and sociology of 
science (my field) have come a long way since Kuhn and I find it rather
disappointing that in scientists have read one book about their subject that
it is this one. In general, I find philosophy of science less interesting
than sociological approaches, when did you last see a philosopher lurking
round a lab trying to find out what scientist actually do. On the other
hand us sociologists are sometimes a little too resistant to philosophy.

Anyway, as this is r.a.b and not sci.philosophy my favourite books
about science are: 

'Representing and Intervening' - Ian Hacking. A good introduction.
'A Neurocomputation Perspective' - Paul Churchland. Fascinating blend
of the philosophies of mind and scince. Witty and readable, if not
always compelling.
'Social Epistemology' - Steve Fuller. An attempt to bridge the gap
between sociolgy and philosophy of science. Be warned this gut has read
everything! Feelings of awe and inadequacy guaranteed.

For the sociological approach there's:

'Science: The Very Idea' - Steve Woolgar. I have to mention this as the guy's
my supervisor. An easy introduction into the wild and wooly world of 
recent sociology of science. Provoking and irreverent. 


And I could go on and on ['You mean you haven't mean doing that already' 
quoth The Plain People of Netland] but this has little to no with
the original thread (but then what's new).


Be seeing you,


CHR$
From: posey@iies.ecn.purdue.edu (Edwin Posey)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Seeking: incisive essayists, any race, creed, or gender
Summary: dissenting opinion on Ellen Goodman
Date: 15 Oct 92 21:22:20 GMT
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network

In article <Bw59Cw.FpB@wsrcc.com>, alison@wsrcc.com (Alison Chaiken) writes:
> I advocate reading Ellen Goodman's books of essays, if newspaper
> columns can be called essays.  I am constantly amazed at her ability
> etc., etc. 
> 
> -- 
> Alison Chaiken 				alison@wsrcc.com
> (510) 422-7129 [daytime] 		or chaiken@cmsgee.llnl.gov
> Look if you like, but you will have to leap.
> 

I beg to differ on EG's incisiveness or lack or prolixity or whatever-
our smalltown paper runs her columns, and I am hard put to find
a comparison for her manner of dithering around an issue and then
coming down on all sides...probably just a mismatch of auras or
whatever.  For incisiveness and all the rest of the terms, give
me Mike Royko every time ...
From: jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk (Jeremy Henderson)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Once I put this book down, I could not pick it up again.
Date: 8 Oct 92 11:18:13 GMT
Organization: Edinburgh University

In article <Bvs8Jy.9Kz@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> nickles@sage.cc.purdue.edu (john a nickles) writes:
=>
=> My choice for great yet unreadable book is (hands down) Thomas Hardy's
=>Jude The Obscure.

I suspect that you have been trying to read it in the wrong frame of mind.
You should wait until a dear relative has died, or your girlfriend has
ditched you, put on some sombre music (Kindertotenlieder, Vier Letste Lieder
or something of the sort), hide all the knives, and *wallow*.

My nominations: Life, a user's manual; The man without qualities; Kristin
Lavransdattir...


-- 
===Jeremy Henderson===jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk=          Vommen
                                             Bladmagen
                                   Loepmagen
                        Naetmagen
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: jyc@leo.Stanford.EDU (Jon Corelis)
Subject: Re: Arthur Rimbaud, is that you?????
Organization: DSO, Stanford University
Date: 13 Oct 92 03:01:24 GMT

Brennan.J.Murphy.53@nd.edu (BRennan Murphy) writes:

>Has anybody seen Arthur Rimbuad lately?  

   I ran into him a few months ago in a truck stop near Chico.  He was
disguised as a rawboned Ozark Kallikak.  When I asked him how he was
doing, he took a long swig of corn liquor from the Mason jar he was
holding and said, "Ah'm a-gonna deliberately dee-range mah sainses, so's
Ah kin reach a highah app-prehension o' reality."
From: wojdylo@maths.uwa.oz.au (INFIDEL)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: argument from buoyancy (was ...from gravity)
Date: 10 Oct 1992 06:35:50 GMT
Organization: The University of Westrn Australia
NNTP-Posting-Host: madvax.maths.uwa.oz.au

francis@oas.stanford.edu (Francis Muir) writes:

>William R. Smith writes:

>	John McCarthy writes:

>		<<< description of baseball game deleted >>>

>	Excellent.  Now could someone post one for cricket.  I've 
>	never been able to figure that out.

>The Snodfart (woops! thats Stanford) Sanskrit Society is putting on
>a CRICKET & SAMOSAS bash at the Oval this Sunday, I believe. Be there.
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>I may be demonstrating my left-handers slow googly (or Chinaman as it
>is sometimes called).

>							Fido

Don't forget the Blunderbuss.

(And, no doubt, Fido'll lookout for them Paki leggies.)


I.

P.S.  Whether it's a Chinaman or not, a googly is understood to be "slow". 


(i.e. Fido bowls a wrong 'un here.)
From: cramer@optilink.UUCP (Clayton Cramer)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: The White Man's Burden of Proof - New words!!
Date: 15 Oct 92 20:31:28 GMT
Organization: Optilink Corporation, Petaluma, CA

In article <JMC.92Oct15004048@SAIL.Stanford.EDU>, jmc@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (John McCarthy) writes:
# How can a post to a newsgroup reek of cowardice?  Since no courage
# is required to post, how can a post reek of cowardice.  I suppose
# one can fear to offend, but Cramer doesn't seem to suffer from that.
# 
# By the way is everyone from Perth given to calling people who disagree
# with him fools and worse?  There's a guy, Gil Hardwick, who posts from
# Perth on sci.environment, and he also has an arrogant denunciatory
# style?  If so, maybe Michael Zeleny would be happier in Perth.
# 
# John McCarthy, Computer Science Department, Stanford, CA 94305

Not at all.  Mr. Zeleny has a larger vocabulary.  The other
similarities, though, are quite noticeable.
-- 
Clayton E. Cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer  My opinions, all mine!
Lesson learned from Gov. Wilson's signing of AB 2601: if you don't get 
your way, have a riot.  Next time, Gov. Wilson will cower appropriately.
From: kat@yaya.WPI.EDU (Flame's Passion)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Once I put this book down, I could not pick it up again.
Date: 7 Oct 92 19:37:26 GMT
Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute
NNTP-Posting-Host: yaya.wpi.edu

In article <7038@transfer.stratus.com> jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com writes:
>In article <1992Oct7.124735.21802@morrow.stanford.edu>  
>francis@oas.stanford.edu (Francis Muir) writes:
>> Barbara Hlavin writes (anent Joyce Carol Oates):
>> 
>> Now here we have the makings of one of the better threads in years.
>> Good books which are just too damn boring to read. I would  
>certainly 
>> include Charles Prolix Dickens, a lot of the Shagger Pagger, all of
>> Milton, &c., &c.
>
>I like Dickens and don't find him boring.
>

So do I, however, I have always contended that Dickens takes a nice 100 page
story and adds 400 pages of description to it.  I still enjoy him, but I 
find that I can't read several of his works in a row.  I usually read one and
not read another Dickens for several months if not a year.

kat
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: hhenderson@vax.clarku.edu
Subject: RE: John Gardner (both)
Organization: Clark University
Date: 15 OCT 92 23:44:39 GMT

John Gardner (the non-Bond one) wrote two books on the writing
of fiction -- THE ART OF FICTION and ON BECOMING A NOVELIST --
that I have found not only instructive, but inspirational.  He must
have been a great writing teacher, because even in the most general
of his musings I found principles that were able to guide me in my 
own work.  His book of essays, ON MORAL FICTION, is also excellent.
Gardner was very demanding when it came to fiction, and did not
suffer intellectual poseurs gladly.  Yet he had a sense of humor too.

I have difficulty reading his fiction, though; it doesn't "speak to
me" the way these other three books did.  I got through NICKEL
MOUNTAIN and admired certain aspects of it but not others.
My husband has read most of Gardner's fiction (but none of his non-
fiction) and recommends THE SUNLIGHT DIALOGUES.

Heather
HHENDERSON@vax.clarku.edu
From: joan@med.unc.edu (Joan Shields)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: letter about writing style (interesting and amusing)
Date: 7 Oct 92 19:45:13 GMT
Organization: UNC-CH School of Medicine
Originator: joan@ocean


From _Selected Letters of Raymond Chandler_ edited by Frank MacShane

from a letter to Edward Weeks from RC, January 18, 1943, in regards to an
article RC wrote for the ATLANTIC MONTHLY (March 1948) called "Oscar Night
in Hollywood"

"By the way, would you convey my compliments to the purist who reads your
proofs and tell him or her that I write in a sort of broken-down patois
which is something like the way a Swiss waiter talks, and that when I
split an infinitive, God damn it, I split it so it will stay split, and
when I interrupt the velvety smoothnes of my more or less literate syntax
with a few sudden words of barroom vernacular, this is done with the eyes
wide open and the mind relaxed but attentive.  The method may not be
perfect, but it is all I have.  I think your proofreader is kindly
attempting to steady me on my feet, but much as I appreciate the
solicitude, I am really able to steer a fairly clear course, provided I
get both sidewalks and the street between."

Thought this was interesting and amusing and just thought I'd share it
with y'all.

Joan
"I could feel her smile in my hip pocket."
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: zombolas@credence.com (Gene Zombolas)
Subject: Re: UK Book Search Firms Requested
Organization: Credence Systems Inc.
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 23:33:14 GMT

In article <1992Oct13.004848.7006@sctc.com> boebert@sctc.com (Earl Boebert) writes:
>Could some kind soul with access to the appropriate advertisments
>please email me the addresses of individuals or firms in the UK who
>perform searches for out of print books?  References or experiences
>with the firms appreciated but not required.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Earl (boebert@sctc.com)
>

There is a monthly magazine from England with articles, sales, and wants
ads.  Included are many ads for search services.  The price is $70 a year
including airmail shipping.  Their address is:

        Book & Magazine Collector
        4345 St. Marys Rd.
        Ealing
        London  W5 5RQ

-Gene Zombolas
zombolas@credence.com
From: lew@cbnewsd.cb.att.com (lewis.h.mammel..jr)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: James Bond
Summary: Avast!
Keywords: James, Bond, Fleming, Charteris, Saint, spy
Date: 9 Oct 92 20:28:46 GMT
Article-I.D.: cbnewsd.1992Oct9.202846.18998
Organization: AT&T

In article <1b1vq3INNa08@darkstar.UCSC.EDU>, saint@cats.ucsc.edu (Daniel Ira Bodenheimer) writes:
> The James Bond Phenomenon
> By Leslie Charteris
> 
> Published in the December 1965 issue of Diplomat magazine.
> 
> .................................................  I mean the type of 
> clanger which has a sailor talk about "getting to leeward of the stink" 
> when he means he wants to get away from it; .........................

Hmmm. Wouldn't a sailor naturally make this type of generalization?
At sea, literally "getting to leeward" would be the only available refuge.
In a perhaps more complex landlocked situation, any refuge at all
would be equated to the unique nautical alternative.


Just wondering.



Lew Mammel, Jr.
From: turkel@unixg.ubc.ca (Bill Turkel)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Clarification
Date: 15 Oct 1992 22:18:30 GMT
Organization: University of British Columbia, Vancouver, B.C., Canada
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: unixg.ubc.ca
Originator: turkel@unixg.ubc.ca


In a recent post I requested book recommendations for studies of
or by Rationalists, especially re modern thinkers.  I meant 'contemporary'
not 'modern', since, of course, philosophers from Descartes onward are
'modern'.  Thanks Mark.

Bill
turkel@unixg.ubc.ca
From: mossman@sag1.ssl.berkeley.edu
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Once I put this book down, I could not pick it up again.
Date: 12 Oct 92 15:42:28 GMT
Reply-To: mossman@sag1.ssl.berkeley.edu ()
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: sag1.ssl.berkeley.edu

Once again this weekend, I put down 'The Three Musketeers' and I know I won't pick 
it up again. I can't imagine anything worse than a boring adventure story. But I
got further this time, almost 100 pages and it seemed that action might break out
soon. Still, seemed like that on page 20. And page 40, and........

Amy Mossman
From: crawford@ben.dev.upenn.edu (Lauren L. Crawford)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Literature Students/Small World
Date: 9 Oct 92 19:34:46 GMT
Organization: University of Pennsylvania

In article <9OCT199210321496@portal.lasc.lockheed.com> le01167@portal.lasc.lockheed.com (Ron Nadel) writes:
>In article <92305@netnews.upenn.edu>, crawford@ben.dev.upenn.edu (Lauren L. Crawford) writes...

>>Also, I'd put the entire book "As I Lay Dying" in this category.  I didn't
>>enjoy it, but I knew it was good, even great.  It's not that I found it
>>boring or difficult to get through at all; I was riveted.  But that is
>>_not_ an enjoyable book.

>So, on what level is it enjoyable?  

IMO, none.  As I say, I didn't enjoy it.

>If you didn't enjoy it, was it great on some intellectual level?  

Yes, I think so.  And emotionally, too (as you go on to ask later in
your post).  I didn't enjoy it because it was a relentlessly grim tale of
a screwed-up family tearing each other apart; it was a bleak and
exhausting read.  But it's also an excellent book, a true work of art. 

I read some books for enjoyment, others for other reasons.  This one fell
in the second category.  



-- 
The trick of reason is to get the imagination to seize the actual world --
if only from time to time.     -- Annie Dillard, "An American Childhood"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lauren Crawford  //  crawford@ben.dev.upenn.edu
From: jjh00@diag.amdahl.com (Joel Hanes)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Seeking: incisive essayists, any race, creed, or gender
Summary: E.B. White
Keywords: irony wit compassion sensibility
Date: 16 Oct 92 17:23:34 GMT
Reply-To: jjh00@diag.amdahl.com
Organization: Amdahl Corporation  Sunnyvale California

E.B. White:
_One_Man's_Meat_
and (I think)
_Third_Tree_From_The_Corner_

some of these essays were originally published in the
(good, old, stodgy, pre-Tina) "New Yorker"

---
Joel Hanes
From: mtaranto@shearson.com (Mark Taranto)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Literature Students/Small World
Date: 7 Oct 92 21:31:03 GMT


le01167@portal.lasc.lockheed.com (Ron Nadel) writes:
 
> fuller@athena.cs.uga.edu (James P. H. Fuller) writes...
>> By contrast, W. H. Auden writes:
 
>>      As readers, we remain in the nursery stage so long as we cannot
>>      distinguish between taste and judgement, so long, that is, as the
>>      only possible verdicts we can pass on a book are two: this I like;
>>      this I don't like.
 
 
 
>>      I can see this is good and I like it;
 
        HOWARDS END -- E. M. Forster
        LOVE IN THE TIME OF CHOLERA -- Garcia-Marquez
 
>>      I can see this is good but I don't like it;
 
        WUTHERING HEIGHTS -- Emily Bronte
        A CONFEDERACY OF DUNCES -- John Kennedy Toole
 
>>      I can see this is good and, though at present I don't like it, I
>>      believe that with perseverance I shall come to like it;
 
        Anything by Thomas Hardy (said when I was younger).
 
>>      I can see that this is trash but I like it;

	THE ADRIAN MOLE DIARIES -- Townesend
        BORED OF THE RINGS -- The Harvard Lampoon
        THE HITCH-HIKER'S GUIDE TO THE GALAXY -- Adams
                (Aw -- come on, you know it's trash :-)
 
>>      I can see that this is trash and I don't like it.
 
        I either know, or imagine that the following fit this category:
 
                Most romance novels.
                A fairly high percentage of self-help books.
                Technical manuals from Digital Equipment or FOCUS.
 
 
> Actually, the quote sounds too theoretical and doesn't strike me as an
> accurate description of how we relate to books and/or expression
 
I think it fits pretty well.
 
Mark
 
 
 
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: francis@oas.stanford.edu (Francis Muir)
Subject: Re: Once I put this book down, I could not pick it up again.
Organization: Stanford Exploration Project
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1992 12:29:11 GMT

Anders Thulin writes:

	No votes for Meredith yet?  Diana at the Crossways.

I was hoping we'd never get around to Meredith. I see him as the Phil
Donohue of the mid-19th Century. You know, aren't women marvellous? and
all that crap. Some of his earliest poems were undoubtly written by his
then wife, Mary Ellen, who later had the good sense to run off with Henry
Wallis the painter (remember "The Death of Chatterton"?). Peter Acroyd's
*Chatterton* and Diane Johnson's *Lesser Lives* touch on these matters.

							Fido

Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: tyg@HQ.Ileaf.COM (Tom Galloway)
Subject: Borders Bookstores sold to K-Mart
Organization: Interleaf, Inc.
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 92 16:38:52 GMT

According to last Saturday's Boston Globe, Borders has been sold to 
K-Mart, who also own Waldenbooks and had been starting to get into
the megastore market with Bassett Books. The purchase price was a bit
unclear; the article mentioned that Borders had self-valued at $190 
million (presumably including their inventory tracking system subsidiary),
but it wasn't clear if that was the price paid by K-Mart.

tyg   tyg@hq.ileaf.com
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: mnemonic@eff.org (Mike Godwin)
Subject: Re: Literature Students/Small World
Originator: mnemonic@eff.org
Organization: Electronic Frontier Foundation
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 11:53:09 GMT

In article <14OCT199223413002@portal.lasc.lockheed.com> le01167@portal.lasc.lockheed.com (Ron Nadel) writes:

>Much as I like to be agreed with, I fear I have not made myself clear.
>Mia culpa.

I disagree. I think it's Woody's fault.


--Mike




-- 
Mike Godwin,    |"I can solve this Orient Express thing without
mnemonic@eff.org| breaking a sweat. It's that simple."
(617) 864-0665  | 
EFF, Cambridge  |                           --Hercule Perot
From: jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Summary of Suggested American Indian novels
Date: 12 Oct 92 14:54:35 GMT
Reply-To: jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin)
Organization: COMANDOS Project, Glesga Yoonie

gt0009b@prism.gatech.EDU (rahim) wrote:
>      Here is the list of all the suggested readings I have received
> concerning American Indian spirituality.  I thank all of you who
> have contributed to this thread...

One that nobody seems to have suggested already: James Houston's "Spirit
Wrestler", a fictional autobiography of an Inuit shaman.  It has a
convincing atmosphere (to me, anyway; I haven't been to the Canadian
Arctic) and balances the reality and fakery involved in shamanism rather
well.  Another of Houston's books is "Bisbee 17", a historical novel about
the Wobblies in the American Southwest; I didn't find this as good - the
historical sources tell some fine stories in their own right, and Houston
didn't add much to them.

-- 
--  Jack Campin    room G092, Computing Science Department, Glasgow University,
17 Lilybank Gardens, Glasgow G12 8RZ, Scotland   TEL: 041 339 8855 x6854 (work)
INTERNET: jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk or via nsfnet-relay.ac.uk    FAX: 041 330 4913
BANG!net: via mcsun and uknet     BITNET: via UKACRL    UUCP: jack@glasgow.uucp