From: Steve.Gross@bbs.oit.unc.edu (Steve Gross)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Calvinism (was: *I* am THE way.)
Date: 18 Aug 92 00:13:09 GMT
Organization: Extended Bulletin Board Service

In article <13339@pogo.wv.tek.com> daveb@pogo.wv.tek.com (Dave Butler) writes:
>Steve Gross again promotes Calvinism:


---- REALLY DAVE, Are you quite through showing everyone here how
brilliant a debater you are.  I certainly am impressed.  I have never
forced anyone to become a Calvinist, as I am not a strict Calvinist.  I
believe  ** many ** of his ideas, but not all.  I do think that people are
predestined and foreknown.  That is not to say that we should all play
like Hitler, or skin people or whatever.  We have been given the Bible as
a sort of guidebook, and we should live by it.  As I have said many many
many times before, predestination only applies to Salvation.  In my
opinion, God foreknew all those whom he would choose.  Towards that end,
he sets people in situations where they will accept the gospel of his son
Jesus Christ.  If God foreknew everyone, and knew that some would resist
him despite all his efforts, then why should he put them in the situations
mentioned above?  I don't want to argue this point with you, as you seem 
to be poised for a fight which you would obviously protract with endless
quotes from people who I don't read, and have no desire to read.  I have
told you and everyone else what *** I *** beleive.  Not what is mandatory
for them to beleive to be saved.  Find someone else to argue with.
(sfg)

Steve.Gross




>> ---- This sounds dangerously close to New Age thinking Tom.  There is no
>> "path" to salvation, as some say there is a "path" to enlightenment.  God
>> either gives a person the salvation, or he doesn't.  There is nothing you
>> or I can do to attain it.  
>
>Steve have you ever considered the more mundane ramifications of your
>Calvinist philosophy? I mean aside from the fact that your god is specifically
>responsible for all evil on earth.  Since there is nothing anyone can do to be
>saved and further since your god's decision is in no way based on merit, and
>is irresistible, it doesn't matter what we do here on earth.  If we are good
>and are not chosen, we will go to the same eternal hell as if we were another
>Hitler.  Further still, if we are truly vile in this life and even torture,
>rape, skin people alive, and amputate body parts from anyone who we displeases
>us, that still would not guarantee our damnation, as salvation is not by
>merit; we can still have as much chance of being saved as anyone else.  Nor,
>if we are damned anyway, would our torture be any more severe for having been
>so repulsive; we will be tossed into the same lake of fire as those "unchosen"
>who have followed a saintly life. 
>
>A logical conclusion of your Calvinism should be stated as: 
>
>	"Be as vile as you like, it will have no effect on salvation; you 
>	can get to heaven anyway.  On the other hand, if you are not destined 
>	for salvation, at least you will have gotten some satisfaction for 
>	actually deserving hell, and maybe even punishing a few of the 
>	'chosen' who will celebrate your eternal punishment." 
>
>And this "celebration" of the damned seems endemic as to Calvinism, as even
>Steve states that salvation is not for all, as that situation where everyone
>is saved, would just not be "fun."
>
>Luckily for such my fellow man, I neither have the disposition necessary for
>such a life of hate, or give any credence to Calvinism so that I might
>convince others of its verity (it contradicts as much of the Bible as it
>supports). 
> 
>				Later,
>
>				Dave Butler
>
>    I'm sure that God could do something miraculous so that everyone would
>    become saved, but where is the fun in that?
>				Steve Gross
>
>    The sight of hell's torments will exalt the happiness of the saints 
>    forever.
>				Jonathan Edwards
>				Calvinist apologist
>
>   "The goodness as well as the happiness of the blessed will be confirmed and
>    advanced by reflections naturally arising from this view of the misery 
>    which some shall undergo, which seems to be a good reason for the
>    creation of those being who shall be finally miserable, and for the 
>    continuation of them in their miserable existence."
>				The Calvinist William King
>				"De Origine Mali" 
>
>   "God shall not pity them, but laugh at their calamity, The righteous
>    company in heaven shall rejoice in the execution of God's judgment, 
>    and shall sing while the smoke rises up forever."
>				Sermon from
>				Scot Calvinist Preacher 
>				Thomas Boston. 
>
>    ... when does it happen that Adam's fall irremediably involved so 
>    many peoples, together with their infant offspring, in eternal death 
>    unless because it so pleased God?
>				Calvin
>				Institutes
>
>    PS. It is only right to point out that there are Calvinists who manage
>    to dispense with some of the more distasteful attribute of Calvinism
>    without gutting the logic of Calvin, but do so by dispensing with hell.
>    Charles Hedrick believes  that in order to satisfy the biblical statement 
>    that his God wishes all should "come to be saved", that his god chooses 
>    everybody.  Publius on the other hand undercuts the horrors of Calvinism 
>    by dismissing Calvin's expectation of eternal torture; Publius expects 
>    oblivion rather than torture to be the fate of the unchosen.  


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