HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU (Brad Hernlem)
Subject: Re: A pragmatic view of the deportation
Reply-To: hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU (Brad Hernlem)
Organization: North Carolina State University
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 19:11:48 GMT

In article <Bzo3w2.99n@imag.fr>, maler@pelvoux.imag.fr (Maler) writes:
> When Israel will withdraw from some part of the occupied 
> territories, there would be an inter-palestinian struggle 
> for getting into power. Nobody wants the extreme islamists
> to win. If the deportation will, in some sense, contribute
> to the victory of the mainstream PLO over the islamists
> than it is a historically positive act, regardless of the
> personal sorrow one may feel towards the deported and their
> families.

I don't think it is anybody's business how the Palestinians choose to
govern themselves. They don't have democracy now but you are concerned
that if Israel lets them govern themselves they may not have democracy
then (or may not have the government that YOU like). Why not give them a
chance? 

It is extremely conceited and arrogant to argue that a people should
remain in submission because if they are granted freedom they might not
be able to take care of themselves! 

As I said before, (from BBC reports) most of the Palestinian deportees
are well-educated people. They are professionals in such areas as
teaching, medicine, law, and engineering. These are examples of people
who can help build a Palestinian country. Deporting them only
exacerbates your false concern.

> It is very stupid to judge such events against the standards 
> of those parts of the world where borders have already been 
> established and ethnic conflicts settled, either by clear
> separation, assimilation or genocyde - as has been the case
> in western Europe and north America. 
> 
> 
> -- 
> ===============================================================
> Oded Maler, LGI-IMAG (Campus), B.P. 53x, 38041 Grenoble, France
> Phone:  76635846  Fax: 76446675   e-mail: maler@vercors.imag.fr
> ===============================================================

Brad Hernlem (hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky)
Subject: Re: Israel's deportation of over 400 Palestinians
Reply-To: makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky)
Organization: Arizona State University, Tempe AZ
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1993 16:55:50 GMT

In article <1i6gdjINNmd4@agate.berkeley.edu> ph111-bx@violet.berkeley.edu (;;;;7202) writes:

# In article <1992Dec24.183747.25193@das.harvard.edu> adam@endor.uucp
# (Adam Shostack) writes:

# ->In article <1992Dec22.091054.24186@Princeton.EDU>
# niepornt@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (David Marc Nieporent) writes:

# ->Quoting somewhat out of context here:

# ->>(Basically, I view this as pretty analagous to the US interment of
# ->>Japanese-Americans during WW2, actually.  The government there, too,
# ->>said there was an imminent security threat because a war was going on.
# ->>Many of the people arguing this may even have believed it sincerely.  It
# ->>didn't make the actions right, however.)

# ->This analogy, is like comparing apples and oranges.  The basic
# ->difference between the actions of the US government and the Israeli
# ->government is that the Arabs living in Gaza pose a demonstratable and
# ->definite threat to the Israeli population.

# ->The Americans of Japanese ancestry who were thrown into camps had
# ->shown no propensity to oppose the American war effort.  Many of them
# ->were second and third generation American citizens.  There were no
# ->instances that I know of of Japanese-Americans spying for the Imperial
# ->Government.  This is in stark contrast to the fact that there were
# ->Germans who spied for the Reich, although German-Americans were never
# ->jailed en masse.

# ->Please note that I am not defending the deportations.  I am merely
# ->trying to point out that David's analogy is fundamentally inaccurate. 
 
# In both cases the internees and deportees were denied due process in time of
# war and instead summarily interned or deported following neither trial nor
# conviction.  The degree to which each group was/is held in suspect is
# immaterial.

	This is plain and simply misleading.  What was being debated was
not the degree to which each group was/is held in suspect as you
claim, but the degree to which they were/are a threat.  You are
discussing apples and oranges.

# Whether you're not liked because of your last name or the shape
# of your eyes, or because of your political positions or suspected acts, if the
# threat you pose to the state is such that extreme measures, i.e. internment
# or deportation, are warrented, then you deserve your day in court to confront
# and defend against the evidence of your alleged "demonstratable and definite
# threat" BEFORE sentence is carried out.

	Not if going through this imposes an unacceptable threat to the
population.  And if you believe otherwise you are being both wrong,
impracticle, and suicidal should you ever be faced with such a
situation.
--
	There are three types of people in the world.  Those that are good
at math and those that are not.

makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU (Brad Hernlem)
Subject: Re: american opinion
Reply-To: hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU (Brad Hernlem)
Organization: North Carolina State University
Distribution: talk,world
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 15:29:15 GMT

In article <1992Dec30.092817.132@vms.huji.ac.il>, backon@vms.huji.ac.il writes:
> In article <bill.725662121@castor>, bill@cognet.ucla.edu (William M.
Eldridge) writes:
> > hm@cs.brown.edu (Harry Mamaysky) writes:
> >
> >>In article <bill.725596124@bcserv>, bill@bcserv.wustl.edu (Eldridge
(Bill)) writes:
[...]
> >>|> Perhaps you should look at pictures from Iraq or Sarajevo, and then
> >>|> give me a definition of "ravaged".  Israel sat tight, and now
> >>|> expects to be paid very handsomely for it. (or did - there is a
> >>|> question of whether having the loan guarantees now dooms the
> >>|> peace process more than any other act).
> >
> >>Well, what is your point? Yes, Israel was very patient.
> >
> > My point is that Israel was not "ravaged" in the Iraq war.
> 
> I see. A few hundred million dollars in damages is not *ravage*. Whole
> neighborhoods demolished by SCUD missles is not *ravage*. Interesting.
>  
> > This is just trying to blow up the sympathy level for Israel
> > to get more money.  Everybody else in the world PAID during that
> > war.  Israel feels it deserves a profit.
> > (Casualties?  Ten?  Oh my.)
> 
> Oh my ! How Christian of you ! But then again, you know how JEWS are when it
> comes to profit :-)
> 
> 
> > --
> > {{{{ bill eldridge           310-206-3960                x          
}}}}
> > {{{{ bill@cognet.ucla.edu    310-206-3987 fax           xxx         
}}}}
> > {{{{ ~more, ~better, ~faster [80's motto]                x          
}}}}
> > {{{{ ~hot, ~toxic, and ~shallow [90's motto]                        
}}}}
> 
> 
> Josh
> backon@VMS.HUJI.AC.IL
> 

I would just like to point out that it was neither Israel nor Saudi
Arabia which suffered most from Iraqi scuds. Iran has been the greatest
victim of Iraqi scuds. Tehran alone was showered with hundreds of scuds.
The total cost of that war to Iran is estimated from $100 billion to $1
trillion (depending upon your source and how you do the accounting) and
1 million lives. Furthermore, the only victims of Iraqi chemical weapons
have been Iranians and Iraqis. This is no comment on Israel itself but
rather on the world's view of things; Germany gave several $100's of
millions of dollars to Israel during the Gulf War because it felt guilty
for helping to build Saddam Hussein's chemical weapons capability. One
wonders why the money should have gone to Israel instead of the real victims.

Brad Hernlem (hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.arabic
From: astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein)
Subject: Re: Deportee Mistaken Identity
Organization: NYSERNet, Inc.
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 03:12:36 GMT

cl056@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Hamaza H. Salah) writes:
>The New York Times, Dec 28, 1992

>"The Israeli newspaper Haaretz, citing army officials, said today
> that 6 of the 415 deportees were victims of mistaken identity and
> should not have been exiled.

> Oded Ben-Ami, a spokesman for the Defense Ministry, said that he
> was not aware of any "mistakes" in the deportation process, but
> that the families of the deportees could raise appeals.

> Taher Shriteh, a Palestinian journalist who works for several news
> organizations, including the New York Times, was taken to the
> Lebanese border with the other Palestinians last week and nearly
> deported.  After releasing him, Israeli officials said his seizure
> had been a mistake."
>                                                      
Thank you for pointing out that, when Israel makes a mistake, it
rectifies it.  Thus we can all be sure that any of those deported in
error will be permitted to return when the error is realized.
-- 
Alan H. Stein                     astein@israel.nysernet.org
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:24358 talk.politics.soviet:10073 soc.culture.greek:11950 soc.culture.europe:10893 soc.history:10442 soc.culture.soviet:11676
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,soc.history,soc.culture.soviet
Followup-To: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: "Turkish children also should be killed," ordered 'Boyadjian'.
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 92 19:51:15 EST
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world

In article <6603.2b405a7b@hayes.com> msieweke@hayes.com writes:

>First, Syrdar is not an AI program.  Syrdar has an automated program

Well, does it change the fact that during the period of 1914 to 1920, 
the Armenian Government ordered, incited, assisted and participated 
in the genocide of 2.5 million Muslim people because of race, religion
and national origin?


          'Kill Turks and Kurds wherever you find them and in 
           whatever circumstances you find them. Turkish children 
           also should be killed as they form a danger to the 
           Armenian nation.' (Hamparsum Boyadjian - 1914)


Serdar Argic

                     'This war quickly developed into one of extermination. 
                      We closed the roads and mountain passes that might 
                      serve as ways of escape for the Tartars [Turks] and 
                      then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: ifaz706@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu
Subject: Re: jewish fundamentalism
Organization: University of Texas @ Austin
Distribution: talk
Date: 24 Dec 92 12:26:43 CST

In article <1992Dec24.1777.21545@channel1>, "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com> writes:
> To: Alan Stein
> 
> Packet: CHANNEL1
> Date: 12-24-92 (02:56)             Number: 21537

		[...]

> Btw, can you you clarify something for me? Why do emotional
> Israeli supporters around here repeatedly try to pass of as
> factual statements remarks that can easily be refuted from
> well-documented sources? 



	I guess they do it for the same reasons that emotional
	haters of Israel do. Emotional people usually don't
	let facts stand in their way. I'll never forget, for
	example, your assertion that Harkabi was the head of 
	the IDF Intelligence under Begin. 



How many times do they have to be burned
> before they realize that the best path is to stick to the truth?
> Every time they are caught out in misstatements and falsehoods,
> their credibility sinks yet another notch lower. At this point
> the Israeli lobby has virtually no credibility in Western
> democratic circles with an IQ above room temperature, precisely
> because it has been caught in telling so many lies.


	The important thing is to tailor your credibility to
	the IQ of the audience. Then again, you can always
	claim that the IQ in Western democratic circles is 
	a (by)product of the ISraeli lobby activities, can't
	you?

                                                    
		[...]


Noam
 


Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:23945 talk.politics.soviet:9927 soc.culture.greek:11799 soc.culture.europe:10733 soc.culture.bulgaria:1998 soc.culture.soviet:11453 soc.rights.human:4648
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,news.admin.policy
Followup-To: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: Wishing does not make it so.
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 92 23:00:20 EST
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world

In article <kbibb.725579561@maui> kbibb@maui.qualcomm.com (Ken Bibb) writes:

>Don't forget the postings to articles on Thanksgiving turkey.  And I had
>a completely unrelated followup to the aforementioned article.

Perhaps I should treat you as imaginary. I see you are preparing
the groundwork for yet another retreat from your ridiculous claims.



Serdar Argic

                     'This war quickly developed into one of extermination. 
                      We closed the roads and mountain passes that might 
                      serve as ways of escape for the Tartars [Turks] and 
                      then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein)
Subject: Re: Israel and the Fourth Geneva Convention (was: Israeli Nazism?)
Organization: NYSERNet, Inc.
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 03:21:27 GMT

wmuhanna@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Waleed A Muhanna) writes:

>  The UN Security Council unanimously passed many resolution
>(most recently a couple of weeks ago) in which it reaffirmed the ``the
>principle of the inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war'', 
>and in which it affirmed the applicability of the Fourth Geneva Convention 
>of 1949 to ``all Palestinian territories occupied by Israel since 1967,
>including Jerusalem,'' and strongly condemned Israel's violations of said 
>coventions.  

The fact that the Security Council resolution referred to the
territories as Palestinian, when they legally belong to nobody and
their disposition must be determined by negotiations, says something
about how impartial the Security Council is.
-- 
Alan H. Stein                     astein@israel.nysernet.org
From: fedimit@wisipc.weizmann.ac.il (Dan Nabutovsky)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Sgt-Mgr Nissim Toledano found murdered
Date: 27 Dec 92 16:17:16 GMT
Organization: Weizmann Institute of Science, Computation Center.

In article <1992Dec19.213320.0112314@locus.com> jle@lear.bos.locus.com (John Elghani) writes:

>You should not criticize israel's behavior, whatever they do is selfdefense,
>and whatever the oppressed palestinians do is criminal.  They paralized
>and almost em-blinded Ahmad Yaseen, it's OK.  They shoot children
>in the streats, its ok.  No one is expected to fight back. As one
>of their more honest says:  The teritories are not occupied, they are
>leberated.  You should know what you're dealing with Sister.  PEACE
>AND OCCUPATION DON'T MIX.  HANAN ASHRAWI CAN FLUSH THE TOILETE WITH
>HER PEACE EFFORT CRAP.  THESE PEOPLE ARE INTERESTED IN BIGGEST ISRAEL.
>ISRAEL IS TOO LITTLE NOW TO BE SUFFICIENT FOR ALL IMMIGRANTS AND
>BELIEFS.

You should not criticize moslem's behavior, whatever they do is selfdefense,
and whatever the aggressive israelis do is criminal.  They brutally and
sadistically killed Nissim Toledano, it's OK.  They attack children
in the streets, its OK. They leave bombs at supermarkets, it is OK.
No one is expected to fight back. As Arafat said:
We want Palestine instead of Israel, not near it.
PEACE AND TERROR DON'T MIX.  FEISAL HUSSEINI AND HANAN ASHRAUI
CAN FLUSH THE TOILETE WITH THEIR PEACE EFFORT CRAP.
THESE PEOPLE ARE INTERESTED IN DESROYING ISRAEL.
ISRAEL IS TOO LITTLE NOW TO GET SOME PART OF IT TO ENEMIES.

Dan.
From: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Israel must return the deportees!
Date: 2 Jan 1993 04:58:52 GMT
Organization: Australian National University
Distribution: world
Reply-To: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au
NNTP-Posting-Host: 150.203.23.70

In article 92Dec31094039@underprize.think.com, rlk@underprize.think.com (Robert Krawitz) writes:

>In article <533@owl.ukc.ac.uk> dat@ukc.ac.uk (D.A.Turner) writes:
>   Most of the territory of Palestine was seized in 1948.   Three  quarters
>   of  a  million  Palestinians were driven from their homes, in an "ethnic
>   cleansing" similar to what is now going on  in  Bosnia.
							     
>The Arabs left their homes in response to calls from the *Arab* states
>that were attacking Israel.  They were told (by the Arabs, not by
>Israel) that they could move back in as soon as Israel was destroyed.
>That didn't happen.  They took their chances on that, they lost.

    "Had such a blanket order (or series of orders) been given, it
    would have found an echo in the thousands of documents produced
    the Haganah's Intelligence Service, the IDF Intelligence Service,
    the Jewish Agency's Political Department Arab Division, the
    Foreign Ministry Middle East Affairs Department; or in the
    memoranda and dispatches of the various British and American
    diplomatic posts in the area (in Tel Aviv, Jerusalem, Haifa,
    Amman, Beirut, Damascus, and Cairo); or in the various radio
    monitoring services (such as the BBC's).  Any or all of these
    would have produced reports, memoranda, or correspondence
    referring to the Arab order and quoting from it.  But no such
    reference to or quotation from such an order or series of
    orders exists in the contemporary documentation.  This
    documentation, it should be noted, includes daily, almost
    hourly, monitoring of Arab radio broadcasts, the Arab press
    inside and outside Palestine, and statements by the Arab and 
    Palestinian Arab leaders."
    [B. Morris,  Tikkun, Jan/Feb 1990, p80]

Or, to put it more simply:  BULLSHIT!

Brendan. 

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.arabic
From: hm@cs.brown.edu (Harry Mamaysky)
Subject: Re: The Hadith about Muslims killing the Jews / Hamas vs. Sunnah
Organization: Somewhere East or Somewhere West
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 16:05:21 GMT

In article <1992Dec17.223519.29718@cbfsb.cb.att.com>, mmdh@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (Mazen Mokhtar) writes:
|>  [much deleted]

|>   If the person is a soldier on duty, whose job is to oppress and to contribute
|> to the killing of innocent Palestinians on command, I don't see what the
|> problem is. Should the French have refrained from killing Nazis?
|> 
|> 
|> Mazen Mokhtar

First of all, do not compare Israelis to Nazis. This is
flagrantly anti-Semitic and offensive. Furthermore, there is
absolutely NO basis for such a comparison. Israel is the moral
opposite of Nazi Germany in EVERY way.

Secondly, Israeli soldiers are not there to kill Palestinians, as you
claim. They are there to protect fellow Jews. When the safety of the
latter no longer remains in question, Israeli soldiers will have no
reason to defend their fellows. They won't, unlike Nazi trash,
persecute people merely because they are different.

Harry.
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:24093 soc.culture.greek:11874 soc.culture.europe:10803 soc.rights.human:4669
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,soc.rights.human
Followup-To: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: Re: Turkish minority in Greece ????
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 92 00:34:32 EST
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world

In article <1992Dec25.002410.22517@informix.com> rika@informix.com (Rika Tsitsinia) writes:

>	I personally am against calling them Muslims. Let me explain.
>    About 1/3 of the 100,000 Muslims of Thrace identify themselves as
>    ethnically Turkish. The rest are gypsies and Pomaks. But, Greece,
>    by insisting on calling all of them Muslims without singling out
>    those that are ethnically turks, actually drives the rest to
>    identify with Sadik and Faikoglu who are not really representing
>    them.

>	I believe that Greece should let those that ethnically identify
>    themselves as Turks do so freely and publicly. Putting all the
>    Muslims of Thrace in the same bag hurts Greece. Alas, divide and
>    conquer is a technique that we seem to be unable to grasp. We need
>    to get the British to teach us some lessons.


And I can never resist all that truth and beauty.


Serdar Argic

                     'This war quickly developed into one of extermination. 
                      We closed the roads and mountain passes that might 
                      serve as ways of escape for the Tartars [Turks] and 
                      then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: odkahn@eos.ncsu.edu (OPHER DANIEL KAHN)
Subject: Re: WHY?
Organization: North Carolina State University, Project Eos
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1992 21:29:07 GMT

In article <1992Dec27.155842.19790@wisipc.weizmann.ac.il> fedimit@wisipc.weizmann.ac.il (Dan Nabutovsky) writes:
>>What do people want in the middle east? Why are they not satisfied?
>>Why hasn't a solution been found?
>
>   Because Moslem fanatics want to destroy Israel,
>and Israel doesn't want to be destroyed.
>
>   Dan

And if you believe its as simple as that I have some real-estate you may
be interested in...  This type of statement would sure make history books
very short and simple.  Too bad real life is much more complicated!

-- 
 Opher D. Kahn 
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Data
Organization: The Department of Redundancy Department
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 92 23:44:48 GMT

In article <1992Dec20.101641.8448@netcom.com> zmbenhal@netcom.com (Zeyd M. Ben-Halim) writes:

>SO WHAT? The implication is that more people were kill by the Palestinians than
>by the Israelis does not absolved the state from the killings. A state is held
>to higher standard than random individuals. 

Correct, but it sure sheds some light on the kind of behavior that
Arabs inside (and outside) of Israel routinely engage in.  Put into
this light, Israel is dealing with an extremely murderous and unruly
bunch of people, not engaging in some "brutal occupation".

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com              10 years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions. standard of a failed President.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein)
Subject: Re: Deportation of Palestinians
Organization: NYSERNet, Inc.
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1993 22:24:13 GMT

jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk (Jeremy Henderson) writes:
>Right. I think it's plain enough that people who will defend the punishment
>of a group of people without any trial, on the basis simply of the beliefs
>they are alleged to hold, will support just about anything. 

The terrorists were not deported on the basis of their beliefs;  they
were deported (temporarily) because of their role in promoting murder,
violence and terrorism.
-- 
Alan H. Stein                     astein@israel.nysernet.org
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast