From: fester@island.COM (Mike Fester)
Subject: Re: Will America fall?
Organization: /usr/local/rn/organization
Distribution: na
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1992 16:00:35 GMT

In article <1992Apr8.005256.4868@leland.Stanford.EDU> underdog@leland.Stanford.EDU (Dwight Joe) writes:
>In article <22524@dog.ee.lbl.gov> yjhbhc@dante.lbl.gov (Joe Huang) writes:
>>...
>>This is the complete opposite of everything I have heard. The great
>>majority of Chinese gangs in the U.S. are extensions of gangs in 
>>Hong Kong, notably the Triads. The recent increase in Chinese gang 
>>activity in the U.S. could be related to 1998 as the gangs try to 
>>build up their power bases abroad.  Most gang recruits are young 
>>immigrant youths unable to adjust to life in the U.S. and end up
>>drifting on the fringes of Chinatown life. These gangs prey strictly 
>>on other Chinese, and have little to do with either the legitimate
>>or criminal elements of the non-Chinese world. 

So far this is true here in San Francisco. Of course, the Chinese and
Vietnamese gangs are often lumped together for various reasons. I would
slightly disagree with your staement about "unable to adjust to life in the
US" though. As with other immigrant groups (Italian, Irish, etc) many new
immigrants want the good life as fast as possible, and gangs look like a
step in that direction to some. 

>The FBI report from the New York Times noted that the Chinese gangs
>were on the upswing as the most dangerous Asian gangs in this country.
>They have started to move from preying on other Chinese to non-Chinese
>Americans.

Not here. There are turf wars between Chinese and Vietnamese gangs here
though.

>>Dwight Joe's comparison of the prevalence of Chinese gangs to 
>>the absence of Japanese gangs in the U.S. as another sign of
>>Chinese depravity is completely ludicrous. Hasn't he ever heard 
>>of the yakusa? Japanese criminal activity, if anything, is even

>Wrong spelling.  It is ya-ku-za.

>>more organized and connected with legitimate elements than the
>>Chinese!

>This is a ludicrous comparison.  Mr. Huang is comparing Japanese
>gangs in Japan with Chinese gangs in the USA.  USA is not the
>home turf of Chinese but is fast becoming one.  A fair comparison
>would be between Chinese gangs in Hong Kong (and other unfortunate
>strongholds of Chinese society) and Japanese gangs in Japan.

As I will point out later, the yakuza are much stronger in Japan than the
Triads are in Hong Kong. And the yakuza seem to be strong in Hawaii and
Guam, and seem to be gaining some strength in Thailand and Singapore.

>Chinese gangs in the USA should be compared against other Asian

Chinese gangs in the US should be compared to other gangs in the US, period.
This has nothing to do with being "Asian" and everything to do with being
a gangster.

>gangs in the USA.  The FBI report made no mention of either Korean
>or Japanese gangs in the USA.  Why?  Could this have something
>to do with the virulent Chinese culture?

It probably has to do with the large number of Chinese immigrants, compared to
the number of immigrants of those other groups you mention. New immigrants
tend to be more susceptible to gang activity for several reasons, among them
  They are poorer and feel the police will not adequately protect them.
  They know if they shut up, they will probably be left alone.
  There are always new recruits coming out the immigrant ranks for reasons
    Mr Huang and I have pointed out.
  They feel that if they work hard, their children (if not they themselves) will
    move out of those neighborhoods, leaving the problem behind.

This was true of the Irish (read some history of New York of the late 1890s;
some of those gangs were as violent as the more famous Mafia), it was true
of the Italians, and it is true of the Chinese, Cubans, Mexicans, and of 
any group which sends a lot of immigrants to the US.

Actually, the yakuza are said to be very strong in Hawaii. And Mr Huang is
right about the yakuza being very strong in Japan. In many large companies,
in fact, there is an officer whose job it is to deal with the yakuza, to
pay them off so that the annual share holders meetings will go more smoothly,
to 'convince' reluctant subcontractors to see things the right way, etc. And
if you are following current news out of Japan, you might be familiar with
the Sagawa Kyubin scandal - the Sagawa company 'loaned' $700 MILLION dollars
to yakuza groups to 'influence' legislation. This scandal looks like it will
easily top the Recruit scandal that forced Takeshita to resign. Mr Huang is
also right about the Chinese gangs being from Hong Kong, and not mainland
China, though I am also told there are connections with Macao, Singapore, 
Thailand, and taiwan among some of them.

It might also interest Mr DJ to know that, up until very recently, the Japanese
police refused to cooperate with international police in sharing information
on yakuza activities. The rationale given: if they are not in Japan, they are
not yakuza! It has only been with the recent surge (by Japanese standards) in
drug arrests and smuggling in Japan that the police have seen the need to
cooperate with InterPol, the FBI, etc.

>As I've said before, the model minority concept might apply to
>the Japanese-Americans and Korean-Americans, but it certainly doesn't
>apply to Chinese-Americans.  A visit to Chinatown should convince
>you.  (I've been told by a couple of Chinese to stay away from
>Chinatown, a very unsafe place--"thanks" to Chinese culture.)

I must remember to tell that to the thousands of residents and tourists in 
the neighborhood, as well as my wife. We all seem to be laboring under the 
delusion that a walk around the neighborhood (such as our stroll last night)
is a perfectly safe thing to do. The BIG problem in any of the 3 Chinatown's
in San Francisco, as everyone will agree, is traffic/parking.

Mike
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