From: goathunter@wkuvx1.bitnet
Newsgroups: comp.os.vms
Subject: re: Re: Moderated VAX Info List?
Date: 26 Jan 93 20:32:27 CDT
Organization: Western Kentucky University, Bowling Green, KY

In discussing the mess that is comp.os.vms and trying to decide if
it's because of the newsgroup or the mailing list, tp@mccall.com (Terry
Poot) in response to Jerry Leichter writes:

>>My own feeling is that the root cause is that it is the NEWSGROUP side that is
>>to blame.  Flame wars are common on Usenet, even expected.  That attitude has
>>spilled over to the mailing list side.  But there are other factors at work.
> 
> Depends, I guess, on how you look at the causality. The problems, IMHO, are
> because info-vax is too large. It covers too broad a range of topics, and
> therefore has a large volume of users who don't all share the same interests.
> The volume almost certainly is attributable to the newsgroup. However, with a
> newsgroup, you solve these problems by subdividing into more focused
> newsgroups.
> 
While I agree with this...

> For example, on VMSnet, there is not only vmsnet.misc, which is directly
> comparable (in topic) to info-vax. You also have vmsnet.sysmgt for system
> management and vmsnet.internals (for internals, of course). Internals traffic
> doesn't go to vmsnet.sysmgt and vice-versa. This reduces the number of people
> and the volume in any one group, and the people in a group tend to have similar
> interests and (to some degree) levels of expertise. This reduces the likelihood
> of the sorts of flames we've seen here lately, which are caused by mixing
> newbies with seasoned (but intolerant) veterans.
> 
...I only partially agree with this.  When I created the MACRO32
mailing list, things were great.  There were no flames and there were
no posts that didn't belong there.  Once it was gatewayed to
vmsnet.internals, MACRO32 started getting a lot of traffic from people
who casually drop into a group and post questions that don't belong
there just because the "heavy-weights" hang out there.  Consequently,
some people stopped reading it.

Overall, the number of inappropriate posts to vmsnet.internals hasn't
been *too* bad, but it's been bad enough that I have refused, and will
continue to refuse, to gateway the Alpha version of MACRO32,
ALPHA-IDS, to a newsgroup.

Jerry wrote:

>>Call me elitist for saying so, but the newsgroup side has made it too easy for
>>people to jump right it.  Joining a mailing list takes a certain amount of
>>effort, and many people with only a tangential interest won't bother.  
> 

And Terry responded:

> Many with a direct interest won't bother, because they don't feel that a mailing
> list is a useful way to carry on such conferences. I'm certain I'm not alone in
> feeling this way.
> 
In many ways, I do prefer reading from NEWS, but for the groups I'm
serious about, I prefer the mailing list primarily for the reason
Jerry gave.

Terry wrote:

> The internals and TPU groups are good examples of focused groups that cover
> their areas better than comp.os.vms does, draw posters not particularly active
> on comp.os.vms, and aren't related to each other to speak of. We have some true
> tpu experts in vmsnet.tpu who aren't in this group (or hardly at all). The
> internals people are more active here than the tpu people, but not as much as in
> vmsnet.internals. I think this shows that comp.os.vms is too broad, as those
> constituencies left when they had a chance. Even the effects of the mailing list
> haven't managed to hold them here. 
> 
I despise reading comp.os.vms these days, but I have to at least scan
it because it's the only place that a lot of people post announcements
of updates to packages available from my FILESERV.  Many of them let
me know directly, but I sometimes add a package announced here to make
it more easily accessible to more people.  If I stop reading
comp.os.vms, I run the risk of getting behind on current versions of
some programs.

Hunter
------
Hunter Goatley, VMS Systems Programmer, Western Kentucky University
goathunter@WKUVX1.BITNET (or goathunter%wkuvx1.bitnet@UKCC.UKY.EDU)