HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: aryeh@cash.ucsc.edu (Aryeh Friedman)
Newsgroups: alt.business.multi-level
Subject: Re: Why are you arguing/discussing?
Date: 11 Sep 1992 03:26:12 GMT
Organization: Marsnet
Distribution: na
NNTP-Posting-Host: cash.ucsc.edu

In article <1992Sep11.031037.11597@samba.oit.unc.edu> Eli.Mantel@bbs.oit.unc.edu (Eli Mantel) writes:
>If Aryeh has had a particular experience with MLM which is bad, that
>shows that he cannot be subjective about MLM, so his opinions about
>it should be discounted.
>
>On the other hand, if he has not had any experience with an MLM, then he
>is not qualified to speak on the subject.
>
>Thus, the only ones qualified to speak on the subject, and whose potentially
>negative comments should not be discounted, are those who have been successful
>with MLM!

	None of the above is true for the simple fact that you do have some
qualifactions if you have done your homework which I have done.  Also have
you head any real experince in foriegn affairs but your still qualified to
dissicuse it right.  Why shouldn't this hold true for MLM.  First I admit I
have no first hand experience with MLM, but I have done my homework.  Also
if you only allow the successes in MLM to speak you will get a very lopsided
point of view and then what is the purpose.   I also stand by everything I 
have said.

>Now can we *please* find someone to be an advocate of MLM and also be
>intellectually honest in discussing it?

	Judging from what you have produced so far it is not likely.
From: aryeh@cash.ucsc.edu (Aryeh Friedman)
Newsgroups: alt.business.multi-level
Subject: Re: Why are you arguing/discussing?
Date: 8 Sep 1992 06:25:46 GMT
Organization: Marsnet
NNTP-Posting-Host: cash.ucsc.edu

In article <1992Sep8.165744.10690@waikato.ac.nz> cdb@waikato.ac.nz (Craig D. Beere) writes:
>Well, there really is some sh*t flying, some of it lucid and coherent, some of
>it ... not.

	Agreed and sh*t well deserved I think!

>The only comparison I can make with this is discussions about religion.

	Maybe because MLM is a religon?!?!?

>Why is it that discussions about MLMs almost always exhibit the same qualities
>that discussions about religions generate?

	Because MLM are about as loyal as religour zelots.

>By these I mean, inablility to maintain a clear head, degeneration into personal
>attacks, dogmaticism, narrow-mindedness, repeating things often, etc.

I try but some of the outragour claims are to much to let go by.

>Why is it (for instance) that some people refuse to (or cannot) believe that
>MLM-ers are entrepreneurs and refuse to (or cannot) listen to arguments for the
>proposition?  

Refusing to believe has nothing to do with because they aren't.  Now I do listen
but for the reasons most of the propositions are bunk.

>Why do people even argue these points?  An argument as to whether XYZ or Amway
>is better is pointless!  It's like arguing whether apples or crankshafts are
>better.

We are comparin apples and apples here since you claim to be something your
not.
Xref: sparky alt.business.multi-level:445 misc.entrepreneurs:2726
From: ecrjbruce@economics.adelaide.edu.au
Newsgroups: alt.business.multi-level,misc.entrepreneurs
Subject: Re: Definition
Date: 8 Sep 92 05:43:31 GMT
Organization: Economics, University of Adelaide
NNTP-Posting-Host: eco.economics.adelaide.edu.au

In article <188cqaINNo4p@darkstar.UCSC.EDU>, aryeh@cash.ucsc.edu (Aryeh Friedman) writes:
> In article <1992Sep4.151050.28453@spdc.ti.com> serafin@epcot.spdc.ti.com (Mike Serafin) writes:
>>      entreprenuer : one who organizes, manages, and assumes 
>>                   the risk of a business or enterprise
> 
> This does not seem to fit MLM! If you can demostrate that you have the benefits
> as well as the risk I might shut up.

Look up Dexter Yaeger.  He is now a billionaire who started as an Amway
disributor.  He has expanded into many businesses - construction, real estate,
travel to name a few - yet he continues to build a very large and very
profitable Amway business.  That is an opportunity open to all distributors and
would seem to me that it's a benefit.  Maybe  you disagree?

regs

Rob

--
Rob Bruce    |  "What he had experienced was a .. dossier compiled by a sentient
             |   computer, nothing more"           William Gibson, `Count Zero'
From: uk09365@nx08.mik.uky.edu (robert i kesten)
Newsgroups: alt.business.multi-level
Subject: scentura
Date: 15 Sep 92 01:46:59 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: University Of Kentucky, Dept. of Math Sciences

Does anyone have any experience working for or dealing with
a MLM called SCENTURA CREATIONS (may also go by
SCENTSATIONAL CONCEPTS).  This company markets mens and
women's fragrances to salons, boutiques, etc.  I call
them "MLM" because they place heavy emphasis on
"office managers" recruiting new "office managers" to
expand the distribution.  The recruiter is then paid
based on his/her own sales and those of the managers he/she
recruits.  To become a manager, one must sell the product
and recruit 4 other people as manager trainees.

The company was founded by a man named Larry Hahn and is
HQed in Atlanta, GA.

Any info would be appreciated.

Robert K.
From: cdb@waikato.ac.nz (Craig D. Beere)
Newsgroups: alt.business.multi-level
Subject: Why are you arguing/discussing?
Date: 8 Sep 92 16:57:44 +1200
Organization: University of Waikato, Hamilton, New Zealand

Well, there really is some sh*t flying, some of it lucid and coherent, some of
it ... not.

The only comparison I can make with this is discussions about religion.

Why is it that discussions about MLMs almost always exhibit the same qualities
that discussions about religions generate?

By these I mean, inablility to maintain a clear head, degeneration into personal
attacks, dogmaticism, narrow-mindedness, repeating things often, etc.

Why is it (for instance) that some people refuse to (or cannot) believe that
MLM-ers are entrepreneurs and refuse to (or cannot) listen to arguments for the
proposition?  The language and arguments I have just read remind me of people
discussing whether Catholics or Anglicans (or Christians and Buddists) are
right!

Why do people even argue these points?  An argument as to whether XYZ or Amway
is better is pointless!  It's like arguing whether apples or crankshafts are
better.

{*******************************************************************************
** Craig D. Beere  (a.k.a. ++Byron)
** University of Waikato, New Zealand
** CDB@waikato.ac.nz
*}
{$I standard_disclaimer}
{$I witty_quote}
Xref: sparky alt.business.multi-level:454 misc.entrepreneurs:2745
From: aryeh@cash.ucsc.edu (Aryeh Friedman)
Newsgroups: alt.business.multi-level,misc.entrepreneurs
Subject: Re: Definition
Date: 8 Sep 92 22:20:37 GMT
Organization: Marsnet
NNTP-Posting-Host: cash.ucsc.edu

In article <1992Sep8.200658.7916@axis.dsg.ti.com> rbeck@mordor.dseg.ti.com writes:
>EXCUSE ME!!!  I am *NOT* an employee for the Amway corporation.  I wholly own and
>operate my own business.  I have taken on the responsibility of accounts
>receiveable, accounts payable, shipping, advertising, rent, etc...  As such, 
>according to the Internal Revenue Service, I am able to deduct expenses
>on a schedule C when filing my taxes.  My business consists of developing
>distribution networks.  When I started, 100% of the job was performed by me.  As
>my network grows, more of my "recruits" help me build more distribution networks.  

	Being an employee is not a legal status but a state of mind.  The state
of mind is I am doing this for someone else not I am doing it for my self, this
means that you can have respect for those higher to you but not to the extent
of taking orders about how do stuff.  Many employees run what look like 
independant out fits.  I exculde tradtional francising from the dissucsion 
though.  Also using words like recruits makes you sound like a personell 
mananger, a army recruiter, or a cult leader or ALL OF THEM.

>As an employee (yes I also have a JOB) I come into work each day, work 8-10 hours
>and receive a paycheck every 15 days.  If I don't perform my boss will terminate
>me.  He controls how much I'll make each year, when I can take my vacations,
>etc...

	This is a the tradtional form of employement but how about 100% 
commission sales.  Both are employement but the sales person is expected to
quit when it is not working out not get fired.

>If you believe I`m just a *well paid employee* 1) you're incorrect as I'm not on
>the Amway Corp payroll (I couldn't be a distributor if I were & I don't live in
>Ada Michigan) and 2) I already have one JOB and wasn't looking for another when I

	Funny since when did not living in the same town as you employeer really
matter.  I have employees scattered across the country.  As for payroll see my
sales person example.  #2 is more your preception then reality.

>Now, if you believe this is just a pyramid (the few at the top make all the money
>while those on the bottom do all the work) take a look at your org chart sometime.

	I own no more of my company then any other employee I did this
purposelly since I think the tradation way is f*cked.
Newsgroups: alt.business.multi-level
From: MIHOLMSTROM@finabo.abo.fi (Mikael Holmstr|m Fei)
Subject: PERKELE!!!
Organization: Abo Akademi University, Finland
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 06:01:57 GMT
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.20

(PERKELE is the most common among Finnish curses, and is very useful)


INFORMATION REQUESTED:

Does anybody have the address to a bookstore that sells any of the following 
books in paperback: (Preferably in Europe , but the US is ok also)

Failla.D. -How to build a large successful mlm....

Kishel & Kishel -Build your own network sales business-

Clother.P. -Multi-level marketing-

Hawkins.L.S. -How to succeed in network marketing-

Roller -How to make big money in MLM-

Scott -Success in MLM-

Klaybor -Be the best you can be in MLM-
Newsgroups: alt.business.multi-level
From: Marker Man
Subject: Re: Eli & Amway
Reply-To: Marker Man
Organization: The Original MLM
Distribution: na
Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1992 19:56:24 GMT

   Sheesh, what a closed mind!  Per your own "facts", don't you think it	
somewhat significant that Amway is the only MLM to have SURVIVED for over
30 years?  If it truly were a scam, don't you think that SOMEbody would
have shut them down by now?
   I also resent (as I'm sure the other Amway folks on the net do) being
called a crook, even in an offhand way.  The people I've sponsored know
that I've done THEM a favor by showing them this business - they have a 
route to freedom that they didn't have previously.	
   Man, go suck an egg!
Newsgroups: alt.business.multi-level
From: MIHOLMSTROM@finabo.abo.fi (Mikael Holmstr|m Fei)
Subject: HAMILTON COSMETICS??
Organization: Abo Akademi University, Finland
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 05:47:49 GMT
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.20

Does anybody have any information about a MLM called Hamilton Cosmetics

that works mainly in the US but is originally based in the UK??

iF YOU HAVE ANY INFORMATION Please E-mail (MIHOLMSTROM@ABO.FI)

hmh
From: hudson@athena.cs.uga.edu (Paul Hudson Jr)
Newsgroups: alt.business.multi-level
Subject: Mela-luka
Date: 8 Sep 92 17:18:17 GMT
Organization: University of Georgia, Athens

I am almost sure that I spelled the name wrong, but has anyone heard of a 
multi-level company called mela-luka that deals with soap and clean up products?
e-mail me. 
hudson@athena.cs.uga.edu
Newsgroups: alt.business.multi-level
From: fritz@hpfcbig.sde.hp.com (Gary Fritz (tmp))
Subject: Re: MLM books
Reply-To: Gary Fritz <fritz@hpfcbig.sde.hp.com>
Organization: HP SESD, Fort Collins, CO
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1scd1 PL4
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 03:54:23 GMT

steve@unipalm.co.uk (Steve Ladlow) writes:
: I am looking very seriously at starting MLM in 1993. 

Ooops.  I read that as "starting *an* MLM".  Sorry about that, Steve.

: How To Make Big Money In Multi-Level Marketing - Roller

This is the only one I recognize.  It's fairly good.  Probably the best ones
I know of are Don Failla's "How to Build a Large Successful MLM Organization"
(to help explain the concept) and Klaybor's "Be the Best You Can Be in MLM"
(to tell how to do it).

Gary
From: cfhammer@guvax.acc.georgetown.edu
Newsgroups: alt.business.multi-level
Subject: Re: Why are you arguing/discussing?
Date: 8 Sep 92 13:44:35 -0400
Distribution: world
Organization: Georgetown University

In article <Bu9MHy.K5J@fc.sde.hp.com>, fritz@hpfcbig.sde.hp.com 
(Gary Fritz (tmp)) reviews aryeh's (aryeh@cash.ucsc.edu) previous postings:

> Aryeh, do us all a favor and quit ranting in public.  If you have to rant,
> be polite enough to do it in private.  If you want to present your views
> in public, please show the courtesy and maturity of reasoned thought and
> coherent discussion, not ad hominem attacks and name-calling.

i second gary's review. for the sake of net.maturity (see my post a
week or so ago) . . . this is getting past the point of informational.

aryeh, perhaps you would tell us why you feel the way you do? did you
get bothered by folks trying to sign you up? or did you try the MLM
approach and not succeed? giving us your experiences might be more
constructive . . . and you might not want to keep fanning the flames
in misc.consumers or misc.entrepeneurs - they don't seem real interested.

aryeh, please remember that every individual's ethics (regardless of
business) is different. to assume otherwise is the basis of prejudice.

-ming
.sig under destruction
Newsgroups: alt.business.multi-level
From: curtj@sequent.com (Curt Jutzi)
Subject: Re: Food for Thought
Organization: Sequent Computer Systems Inc.
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 92 23:01:06 GMT

In article <188jnhINNqli@darkstar.UCSC.EDU> aryeh@cash.ucsc.edu (Aryeh Friedman) writes:

>As I have stated before the primary reason for starting a business should not
>be to make money.

	My Friend.. you have obviously not owned your own business. That may
	not be why you started the business, but you'll find that once you 
	have, it will (and should) be one of your primary goals. (of course 
	as long as your business decissions are made ethically and morally).
	
	If you have employees your obligation IS to make money.. There is 
	NO WAY to run a business for any length of time if your focus is not
	on making money.. 



-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
			"Business Is BOOMING !!"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
   __        __  /|      Curt Jutzi (Jutz)       Sequent, Inc.
From: 9125113g@lux.latrobe.edu.au (Mitch Davis)
Newsgroups: alt.oobe
Subject: Re: The "alpha" state
Date: 11 Sep 92 08:53:23 GMT
Organization: La Trobe University

In article <1992Sep10.164208.2380@javelin.sim.es.com> KHATCH@130.187.170.178 (kh) writes:
>In <1992Sep9.010424.15968@lugb.latrobe.edu.au> 9125113g@lux.latrobe.edu.au writes:
>
>> In the 14 years of the existance of this course, they have trained
>> 28,000 people.  They offer a complete money-back guarantee, which
>> apparently no-one ever exercises - I sure wouldn't because I feel I got
>> so much out of the course.
>> 
>> The first quarter of the course covers getting into the alpha state.
>> The rest of it teaches you really neat ways to use the alpha state to do
>> some incredible things.
>
>Who offers this course?

The company is called "Alpha Dynamics", and they hold courses throughout
Australia and SE Asia.  Apart from that, I don't know.

I cannot recommend it too highly as one of the best value-for-money
self-improvement courses I've done.  Very practical.

Mitch.
Newsgroups: alt.oobe
From: mneugeba@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu (Mike Neugebauer)
Subject: OBEs in general
Keywords: how, how long, steps
Organization: University of Waterloo
Distribution: alt
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1992 19:11:50 GMT

	Hello there good people.  I have been interested in OBEs for quite some time now, I have some books and read a lot about it.  However, I have never beenable to contact anyone who actually experienced one.  Can someone mercifully    give me some instructions on how to reach this exotic state of mind.  I am      really hot on that subject.  I want an OBE more than sex (wow!), I've tried to  accomplish this, but I don't believe that I had  the full instructions.   Thank you so much for any sort of advice, un




fortunately that is the only thing I can give you people in return.  Thanks again for your (hopeful) help. 

Mike.
From: wdb3926@zeus.tamu.edu (DAN)
Newsgroups: alt.oobe
Subject: Re: Need a good description of what one experiences.....
Date: 12 Sep 1992 04:59:00 GMT
Organization: Texas A&M University, Academic Computing Services
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article Marcelino writes...
>	Last night I went to sleep like most nights except something strange
>occured that I am not sure what to make of. During the course of my sleep
>I regained consciousness in my sleep and I was aware of this. Besides being
>aware of being conscious I was terrified at first of a loud crackling noise
>entering my ears as thou some kind of static electricity was being
>discharged and I felt my entireself fluttering or pulsating. I am not 
>completely sure if it was just in my head, but it seemed real.

This sounds familiar......fluttering and vibrating are the best words
that I can think of that best describe the beginning of an oobe.....
I'm not sure how "real" this "place" we go is during an oobe....but
hearing about the similarity of the experience of other seems to make
it more "real".

> Then realizing that I
>might be in the state which many of you say could lead to an oobe I began to
>put thoughts in my mind of seperation from the body except I lost control as
>well as my awareness and woke up later in the morning with the above in my
>mind. 

I remember that my first few oobe's were like this.....lack of control
of motion and thought.....afriad....  It could be that we actally
leave the body during the first few occurances but since the experience
is so tramatic we may just forget it.....just a theory.

>Can anyone explain or share exactly what does happen when entering an
>oobe so abruptly, so I can at least know if I am heading in the right
>direction.

All my oobe's are entered abruptly....i.e. are unexpected.  I've
never been able to enter one at will...although attempting to relax
for a long period before sleep seems to help.  Almost all oobe started
from sleep sometimes during a dream.  Dreams in which I am flying or
falling seem stimulate oobe's.

After the vibration and fluttering, weightlessness begins for me.
This is nice but was difficult to control in the beginning.  I remember
waking one night floating about 2 feet from the ceiling of my room
..rotating slowly....I re-entered my body quickly and sat up..."Whoa!"

Has anyone tried to put thier hand thru a wall or floor recently
during an oobe?  

Dan
From: 9125113g@lux.latrobe.edu.au (Mitch Davis)
Newsgroups: alt.oobe
Subject: The "alpha" state.
Date: 12 Sep 92 06:30:54 GMT
Organization: La Trobe University

To those people who wanted the name of the book with an alpha-like
technique in it; sorry, I looked and the book has gone walkabout.
I guess I should use alpha to sift back through my memory and find it!

Mitch.
Newsgroups: alt.oobe,talk.religion.newage
From: gst@spdcc.com (Gary S. Trujillo)
Newsgroups: alt.oobe,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Adolescent Questions
Date: 8 Sep 92 19:02:24 GMT
Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting

In article <19920907223122ESRLPDI@MVS.OAC.UCLA.EDU> ESRLPDI@MVS.OAC.UCLA.EDU
	(Ivan Ivanick) writes:

>   I just had a small synchronicitous experience (involving the list)

Hmm.  Sounds intriguing.  Maybe you could give us a hint?  :-)

> 1) Astronomically inclined as I was, I wanted a cheap way to travel to
>    the planets & see what they were really like, as well as other celest
>    -ial objects...

Hmm again.  I remember looking through some literature in my student days
put out by what appeared to me to be a semi-wacko group called "Eckankar."
One of the advertised features of their teachings was just this ability,
along with being able to travel to various realms of existence they talked
about, including one where you could examine the "akashic records."  Does
anyone know anything about this subject?

I'm cross-posting this article to "talk.religion.newage" in case anyone
there knows anything about this subject (for the benefit of those folks
who may not know, alt.oobe - (soon to be alt.out-of-body) is a newsgroup
dedicated to talking about out of body experiences (sometimes called OBEs
or OOBEs)).

> 2) I wanted to watch Denise Hausfeld get undressed for bed.

I guess this one rates a "Hmmmm!"  No comment.  :-)

Gary
-- 
    Gary S. Trujillo                             gst@gnosys.svle.ma.us
Somerville, Massachusetts               {wjh12,bu.edu,spdcc,ima,cdp}!gnosys!gst
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 00:53:51 EDT
From: <SRK8@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.oobe
Subject: Vibrations ??

From what I have read in the posts here, it seems as if vibrations occuring
in the body are a very good indication to the entering of the oobe-state.  I
dont know for sure if I am getting the RIGHT vibrations thou.  it is usually
a sensation starting in the back of the neck and extending sort of to the
rest of my body.  ok here is the problem, I usually relax and after
concentrating for say 15-20 minutes I can almost get these vibrations but
after that nothing ever seems to happen.  so can anyone point out what I
shud be doing ?

Kumar
Newsgroups: alt.oobe
From: KHATCH@130.187.170.178 (kh)
Subject: Re: Adolescent Questions
Organization: Terra Incognita
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 17:01:55 GMT
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.11

In <1992Sep10.010629.21435@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au> int766m@lindblat.cc.monash.edu.au writes:

> When in the astral form, you can go to any place you want, provided it is
> on the vibration or lower to the vibration your astral body is on. ie you 
> could go to venus, mars and other planets of our solar system, and infact
> you would find life on those planets. I suggest you go to venus first, as
> they are quite friendly there. Make sure you believe in being able to use
> "clairvoyance" as it is the only way to see the life on venus and many other
> planets, as they are of a higher dimension/vibration than us. Infact, most
> populi (?) is space are friendly, except for a tribe on mars. I am not sure
> how much damage they could do to the astral body, but better find out first.
> And yes they will also be able to see you, as your astral body vibration is
> similar to the virbration of their "physical bodies".
> 	Remember: on the astral plane, thought rules. You don't need a vortex
> to get about. Just thinking about a place should get you there. Similar, if 
> you believe (think) you can't do something, then you won't be able to.

Sascha,

    You seem to speak with an aire of ultimate authority about this subject.
This puzzles me. You have mentioned that you have never had an OBE, yet you
give authoritative instructions and explanations that contradict, often
drastically, the experiences of those who have regualr OBEs. May I ask what is
the source of your information?  I don't mean to flame, really. Everyone's
beliefs are their own property. I just believe that people should give higher
precedence to direct experience. 

-kh
Newsgroups: alt.oobe