HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: allen%asylum.cs.utah.edu@cs.utah.edu (Allen Sanderson)
Subject: Re: Cairns, Flags, and Fixed Wands
Date: 27 Jul 92 15:02:39 MDT
Organization: University of Utah CS Dept

lowrie@convection.engin.umich.edu (Robert Byron Lowrie) writes:
>
>If a route is so heavily traveled as to compel someone to construct cairns,
>then cairns are justified to help keep most people to the same path, and
>therefore minimize the clibmer/hiker's environmental impact.

I think there is something missing here or is it me.

I always though cairns were constructed to mark the proper way when a
trail was NOT visible.  So if "If a route is so heavily traveled as to
compel someone to construct cairns are justified to help keep most
people to the same path".  This implies that when multiple paths
exist we should build carns along the proper one.  I always thought
that you put sticks, rocks, brush on the trails you did not want to
use and outlined the proper trail with a single rock border on either
side of the trail.

>Do you suggest we also kick over those nasty "Short-Cutting Causes Erosion"
>signs?

Naw because no matter how well a trail is outline with rocks or old
short cuts covered over some bozo will run down the hill.


Although I have been harping on cairns I have had the pleasure (?) of
using trial marking during several winters in the backcountry of
Yellowstone.  These makers are bright orange "flags" placed on trees.
In the winter they are fairly visible.  Sometimes they are 10 feet up
other times they are at your knees.  You will see one of them, move your
head 2 inches and it is gone.  Sometimes they are a pain in the ass
sometimes they give you warm feeling.  (Like when we got disorientated
in a big meadow during a blinding snow storm because of magnatite
reversing our compasses).

Cairns and markers have their place in backcountry but in my mind they
do not need to be obtrusive as I have seen them.  Big cairns are not
justified because of snow fall (how months of the year are people
skiing in places like the Lost World Plateau or Unita Mts. as Eirc and
I were over the weekend.  Further, I find cairns on the tops of a
mountain or along a trail saying I was here to be rather sad.  (Well
unless it was a first ascent and you did not bring your camera to
prove you were there first).  Why not put your initals in the trees as
some insist on doing ?  It is the same thing.

Wilderness is an area were man is suppose to be a visitor and as such
we should seek to minimize our impact, visual and other wise.  Come,
take pictures, leave only footprints.

Allen R. Sanderson

Salt Lake City, Oootah


"Pucky lads, a wee bit over their heads"

	Doug Scott after encountering two climbers
	on Denali suffering from exposure.
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: brant@seq.uncwil.edu (AT-Dreamer)
Subject: Zippo lighters and White Gas
Organization: Univ. of North Carolina @ Wilmington
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 17:26:49 GMT

It is a marriage made in heaven.  A zippo lighter on a camping
trip is great since it can always be filled with stove fuel,
assumeing your useing white gas or even auto gas.
-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Worlds may change, galaxies disintegrate /brant@seq. | Move your Butt Stimpy 
but a woman always remains a woman.     / uncwil.edu | it's a Higher Mammal! 
- Kirk, "Conscience of the King,"      / "Chuck"     |  - Ren Hoek           
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: lwvanels@athena.mit.edu (Lucien W. Van Elsen)
Subject: Re: Archive format at mit.edu
Reply-To: lwvanels@MIT.EDU
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 15:41:14 GMT

brant@seq.uncwil.edu (AT-Dreamer) writes:
>   What is the deal?
>   I don't understand all the junk in front [_89_90_3].......
>   why?

Spaces and other characters in the title of the posting that would be
potentially problematic in filenames are replaced by underscores.  The titles
of Eugene's FAQ postings start with something like [l/m 4/15/92], so you'll
see the filenames of the archives starting with something like [l_m_4_15_92].

	-Lucien
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: stgprao@xing.unocal.com (Richard Ottolini)
Subject: Re: Chevron - People Do? (sometimes)
Originator: stgprao@xing
Organization: Unocal Corporation
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 23:27:12 GMT

In article <1992Jul28.140209@usho29.hou281.chevron.com> jrgma@hou281.chevron.com writes:
>     OK, I'm off of my soapbox. Before the flames begin, maybe 
>someone can answer one question for me. I have recently travelled 
>quite a bit throughout areas in North America, primarily Texas, 
>Colorado, Alberta and the southeast U.S. Why is it that the only place 
>in all these travels where regular LEADED gasoline is readily available 
>at every pump is California? Just curious.

It is changing rapidly; only about half do now.  So CA has lots of 30+ year
old cars on the road which cause most of the pollution and accidents.
But this is not a backcountry topic.
From: eugene@wilbur.nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: NOTE: Bigfoot/Sasquatch Information
Date: 22 Jul 92 22:44:30 GMT
Organization: NAS, NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA

Do you honestly think that a Government incapable of keeping sex scandals,
the raising of a Soviet sub, stealth programs, etc. as secrets could
manage to keep something like this secret?

If yes:
I have a big red bridge and some land in Florida I would like to sell you.

--eugene miya, NASA Ames Research Center, eugene@orville.nas.nasa.gov
  Resident Cynic, Rock of Ages Home for Retired Hackers
  {uunet,mailrus,other gateways}!ames!eugene
Second Favorite email message: Returned mail: Cannot send message for 3 days
A Ref: Mathematics and Plausible Reasoning, vol. 1, G. Polya
Xref: sparky rec.backcountry:5658 rec.travel:10811
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry,rec.travel
Subject: Touring/camping in Central N.S.W., Australia
From: Aron Eisenpress <AFECU@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Date: Tuesday, 28 Jul 1992 16:34:35 EDT
Organization: City University of New York/ University Computer Center

We are thinking of winding up our upcoming Australian visit with an overnight
stay in Warrumbungles N.P., especially after reading a post a while back that
said "... The scenery is absolutely spectacular, and it'll be
a fabulous chance to see Australian wildlife outside a zoo. I
went camping there four years ago just before Christmas, and had
herds of kangaroos outside my tent in the morning and evening,
rock wallabys, goannas... oh yes: and insects galore!"

We're not thrilled about the insects or about the distance from Sydney,
as we have only 4 days (3 nights) and would like to spend some time in
the Blue Mountains too (and our traveling style is more meander than rush).
Is it worth the extra driving time, or is there another park closer to
Sydney that you'd recommend?  And where could we rent a tent and sleeping
bags en route?  Advise and thoughts are appreciated.

-------

 -- Aron Eisenpress, City U of NY
    (AFECU@CUNYVM.BITNET, or AFECU@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU on the Internet)


P.S. My spelling checker suggests I change "EDU" in my address to "EMU" :-)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: rjk@iastate.edu (Russell J Kraemer)
Subject: Re: Dutch Ovens in the backcountry
Keywords: cookbooks, favorite recipes, and tips
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, IA
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1992 19:26:59 GMT

In article <171@future.sbc.com> js0998@future.UUCP (Cam Spillman) writes:
>In article <63905@hydra.gatech.EDU> gt3930b@prism.gatech.EDU (NICHOLS,STEVEN MALCOLM) writes:
>>Hi,
>>
>>I recently got a dutch oven and I was wondering if anyone else out there
>>uses one.  [...]
>>I imagine I'll be
>>using mine on canoeing/rafting trips, and perhaps car camping in primitive
>>campgrounds.  
>
>A word of advice from an old Boy Scout friend of mine.  When backpacking
>with a dutch oven, it's important to remember... pack it with the pointy
>little legs AWAY from your back  ;')

No, No, there is a better method.  Fall in love, have a child, let them
grow, feeding them well so they get Real Large(tm), and make them
carry it in their pack.  My father seems to swear by this method.

-- 
rjk@iastate.edu                 

I think therefore I.......shoot, was I saying something?
From: rgoldman@deepthought.unm.edu (Ruth Goldman)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Report on Colorado trip
Date: 31 Jul 92 20:51:33 GMT
Distribution: rec.backcountry
Organization: The University of New Mexico, Albuquerque, NM

Hello everyone!
A while ago I asked for suggestions on hiking in the San Juan mts in
Colorado and I want to thank everyone (belatedly I'm afraid) for their
helpful suggestions.  We ended spending 3 weeks in the South San
Juans.  We were fortunate enough to have a friend's cabin to use as a
base camp and did 2 3-day backpacking trips in the South San Juan
Wilderness and 1 4-day trip in the Weminuche Wilderness.   In addition
we did a number of day hikes in the South San Juan Wilderness.  WE
were staying near the little town (and I mean little) of Platoro.  We
got rain or hail almost every day (as well as lots of horrific thunder
and lightning) but despite this fact we had a great time.  We saw over
one hundred elk, many deer, marmots, and a number of large birds (one
eagle).  We did not see any other backpackers in the South San Juans
and didn't see any people on many of our day hikes either.  The
wildflowers were almost at their peak and further enhanced the
spectacular scenery.  I was ready to stay there and hike forever.  So
if you're in the area, be sure and check out the South San Juans!  

The two highlights of our trip (besides seeing all the wildlife) was
hiking across the Continental Divide Trail on Mt Hope (in the
Weminuche) which offered 2and 1/2 miles of spectacular views and
climbing to the top of 13,172 foot Conejos Peak where we looked down
at many of the areas we had hiked and backpacked in.

ruth
From: asmcclan@gothamcity.jsc.nasa.gov (Andrew S. McClanahan [DH4])
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Cairns, Flags, and Fixed Wands
Keywords: cairns
Date: 30 Jul 1992 22:10:29 GMT
Organization: Software Technology Branch - NASA/JSC
Originator: asmcclan@gothamcity


Most of my hiking has been in the Chihuahuan desert where cairns are a welcome site.  This is the first I have heard of destroying them.  Normally the problem is that they need to be rebuilt.  Many of the trails follow drainages, which get scourged by the thunderstorms.  I have built a few myself as reassurance when returning by the same route.  Ironically, most of them I have a hard time finding to tear down on the return trip.  A lot of my trips are solo and off trail.  I rely primarily on my map reading



 skills.

I can understand destroying cairns above timberline, but in the desert they are very helpful.

One final note.  After spending 4 days in the new Big Bend Ranch State Natural Area, the ranger asked me about any problems following the route, which is marked by cairns.  He mentioned that groups of volunteers built the cairns.  They have to be supervised because there had been incidents of valuable archeology sites unknowingly destroyed for building materials for the cairns.

Scott McClanahan
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: eugene@orville.nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya)
Subject: Re: Waterproofing Boots (was Re: Summery of Nike fabic boots...)
Organization: NAS, NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 92 21:58:11 GMT
Distribution: usa

In article <1992Jul23.204034.28745@athena.mit.edu> misterl@athena.mit.edu
(Lawrence P Lubowsky) writes:
>In article <1992Jul20.174235.28361@mitem.com> unger@mitem.com
(Tom Unger) writes:
>>resole them.  In the long run you may save money on them.  I have
>>learned how to waterproof my leather boots so that I can walk through
>>water (for a short way) and still have dry feet.  (The secret is _not_
>>snow seal.)
>
>So what's the secret?

The real secrets are:
1) prevent water from entering the top using something like gaitors.

2) Get boots with a minimum of seams.

3) Don't sweat.

Even Fletcher published this decades ago.

--eugene miya, NASA Ames Research Center, eugene@orville.nas.nasa.gov
  Resident Cynic, Rock of Ages Home for Retired Hackers
  {uunet,mailrus,other gateways}!ames!eugene
Second Favorite email message: Returned mail: Cannot send message for 3 days
A Ref: Mathematics and Plausible Reasoning, vol. 1, G. Polya
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Yellowstone trip report - long
From: P.B.Halverson@massey.ac.nz (P.B. Halverson)
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 92 00:41:06 GMT
Organization: Massey University, Palmerston North, New Zealand
X-Reader: NETNEWS/PC Version 2c

Hi,

If you hike to the top of Grand Targhee, it seems like you can almost 
reach out and touch the Tetons.

On a clear day that is.

Cheers,

Phil
From: igb@fulcrum.bt.co.uk (Ian G Batten)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: no tent works 3 days in the rain
Date: 22 Jul 92 09:27:24 GMT
Organization: Fulcrum Communications

>>>>> On 22 Jul 92 02:44:53 GMT, tut@cairo.Eng.Sun.COM (Bill "Bill" Tuthill) said:
Bill>  After the first night, condensation builds up on the inside of the
Bill>  rainfly.  After the second night, this condensation completely soaks
Bill>  the fabric of the inner tent.  After the third night, your sleeping
Bill>  bag is wet all over.  Usually I pack up and leave before spending a

We sat out a long wet period in the Pyrennees in our Wild Country Super
Nova.  I wouldn't care to analyse which of the effects you describe
didn't take place, but I suspect that US tents have slight heavier
inners because they are often used without the fly.  This presumably
makes them more likely to hold dampness.

ian
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: geek@media.mit.edu (Chris Schmandt)
Subject: Virgin forest in New Hampshire?
Organization: MIT Media Laboratory
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 02:22:25 GMT

I read somewhere that there is a small stand of virgin timber in
the Whites in New Hampshire, I seem to recall reference to a place
called "the Bowl" on Whiteface (or one of the southern mountains
near the Sandwhich range).

Can anyone confirm this, or give me more info?

chris

(You folks in the northwest see what its like back here?  We used to
have a stand nearer Boston but it went in a hurricane not so long ago.
Keep it while you can!)
From: jerry@siesoft.co.uk (Jerry Webb)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: MSR Whisperlite
Date: 22 Jul 92 16:03:28 GMT
Organization: Siemens Nixdorf Information Systems Ltd.
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4

franki@prso.pttnwb.nl (Frank van Ierland) writes:
> Coleman fuel is also widely availeble isn Dutch camping shops. (Ok that
> is just a verry tiny part of europe).

Coleman fuel is sold in most camping shops in the UK. Parafin is usually
sold from small pumps at the side of the forecourt in petrol stations (eg
Esso service stations).
   I used my MSR Whisperlite International with ordinary 4 star (high
octane) petrol in Norway for three weeks last year; the only problem I
found was that petrol burns with even more soot than parafin/kerosene
until it starts to vaporise correctly - took about five to ten minutes
to get the stove alight each time! 
   I changed the jet after that trip to the spare you can buy for burning
parafin. The new jets cost about $1 from Field&Trek in the UK - you want
the 'K' jet - it has a 'K' stamped on it in fact; the hole in the jet
is a different diameter for kerosene use rather than petrol use. Parafin
is _cheap_ in the UK: about 45p for 1.5 litres. Coleman fuel costs
about ten times as much for the same quantity, and you have to drive all
the way to the camping shop to buy a tin. I would stick with parafin 
every time. It's less volatile than Coleman fuel too so you don't explode
in a ball of flame if your MSR pump seperates from the Sigg bottle you
are using for fue while you are cookingl :-)

Anybody tried the MSR WaterWorks filter yet? This costs about 135 pounds
in the UK ... I think we might be being overcharged by the sole
importers. :-(

Jerry

--
===============================================================================
"A mountain is a geological wave ... we are the _real_ surfers"       
                                        -  "The MTB Way of Knowledge", W. Nealy
===============================================================================
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: watson@pioneer.arc.nasa.gov (John S. Watson - FSC)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Bigfoot
Date: 28 Jul 92 22:24:24 GMT
Organization: NASA Ames Res. Ctr. Mtn Vw CA 94035

In article <1992Jul27.061117.22273@nezsdc.icl.co.nz> derek@nezsdc.icl.co.nz (Derek Tearne) writes:
> Wasn't there a new mammal discovered very recently (within weeks).  A friend
> caught the end of the news item but I unfortunately missed it.

Today's headline in the San Jose Mercury News  (July 28, 1992)
tells of possiblity of the discovery of a previous unknown 
(to western science) type of goat a in remote section of 
northern Vietnam/Laosian boarder.  Also some fish and birds.
I just scaned the article, but there is a picture of a fellow
holding the sculls of two said goats, the proment feature
being very long strait horns.  They have apparently not found
any living goats yet.

BTW, if I see more than one Bigfoot, do I report seeing "Bigfeet" 
or "Bigfoots"? :-)

John S. Watson, Civil Servent from Hell          ARPA: watson@ames.arc.nasa.gov

HOMEBREW NAKED! --- Ursus cerevisiae nudium  (The Bare Beer Bear)
All right, then, I'll GO to hell"  --- Mark Twain
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: smmyers@pbhyg.PacBell.COM (... .. ...)
Subject: Re: Dutch Ovens in the backcountry
Reply-To: smmyers@PacBell.COM (... .. ...)
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 18:59:24 GMT
Keywords: cookbooks, favorite recipes, and tips

In article <1992Jul20.224125.24856@src.dec.com> reimer@src.dec.com (Dean Reimer) writes:
>I use to bury the dutch oven under the fire before I started it.  You can bake
>apple pies, cakes, ect.
>
>Dean

     Don't forget Backcountry Pizza.  Mmmmmm.


Sean
From: pan@bambam.spt1.sbi.com (Paul Pan)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Summery of Nike fabic boots, story, and
Date: 21 Jul 92 13:19:02 GMT
Reply-To: pan@bambam.spt1.sbi.com
Organization: Salomon Brothers, Inc. - Arbitrage Support

>Many authors/experts declare that Gore-Tex in boots is a waste.  One reason
>is that it can't possibly breathe out more than a fraction of the sweat
>your feet are going to generate.  The second is that the intense flexing
>footware undergoes and the exposure to all sorts of muck will degrade it in 
>short order.  

>For that matter, there doesn't seem to be any treatment that will keep 
>ordinary leather/fabric footwear waterproof for more than a few hours
>of exposure, let alone waterproof and half-way breathable.

>Some things you just have to live with.

Merrell recommends a spray on treatment called Tectron made by some folks out in CA.
It supposedly provides waterproofing while maintaining a decent amount of 
breathability. Unfortunately, depending on use, it has to be re-applied 
about every 6 months. They have an 800 number if anyone wants more info :

800-289-2583



---

Paul L. Pan	(pan@daffy.sbi.com)
From: rickh@ems.cdc.com (Richard Herwig)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Goin' to Alaska
Keywords: Alaska
Date: 28 Jul 92 13:10:25 GMT
Organization: Empros Systems International, a division of CDC

Well, we*re finally going to do it.  3 weeks in the big A.  So far the only
plans in cement, or should I say perma-frost ;-)  are to spend 6 days
in a National Forest Service cabin in the Chugach Mountains, sittin* on my
hinder, fishin*, readin*, and emptyin* the *ol bit bucket (sorry, I*m a
programmer |:-(   ).

My S.O. and I are also (maybe) planning to get up to Denali and drive around
the triangle (the road east of Denali, south to Valdez, west to Anchorage).
Anybody got any suggestions for fun things to do, to go?  We'll drive and/or
hike if we have to.  

Any suggestions on fishin* gear?  A firend sez **I did all my fishin* with
Little Cleos and Panther Martins**  Remember, all this gear has to be on
our backs ):-(

Any other babblings will also be appreciated!

TANKS 


<:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:>
 Richard F. Herwig            | email: rickh@ems.cdc.com
 EMPROS Systems International | Facility Code: PLY068   
 2300 Berkshire Lane North    |
 Plymouth, MN 55441  USA      | "U mess with the mOOse, u get the antler!"
<:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:>
From: carmanr@lafcol.lafayette.edu (Carman Robert (picro))
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Bigfoot
Summary: Not the zebra
Date: 22 Jul 92 18:45:03 GMT
Organization: Lehigh University

Derek Kirkland wants to know how anyone could think the zebra was unknown
to science until the 1930s. I think the animal in question is not the zebra
but the okapi, which was not identified and described as a species until 
1900. It lives in the rain forests of Uganda and Zaire. It also has some
stripes, hence the probable confusion. The last large, terrestrial mammal
to be identified, the okapi is practically the mascot of the so-called
"cryptozoologists," who like to cite it as inferential proof that there
may be other significant and as-yet unidentified animals out there, even 
on land--e.g., Nessie, the Lake Champlain monster, the Loch Moorar monster,
mkolome-mlembe (sp.?), yeti, and, of course, our old friend Bigfoot, not 
to mention the Jersey Devil. It is all nonsense, of course. About 30 years
ago the intellectual godfather of this foolishness, a Belgian named Bernard
Heuvelmans, published book called "On the Track of Unkown Animals," in 
which he described a number of such animals awaiting discovery, including 
an ape-sized New World monkey, giant ground sloth, giant armadillo, an
unknown large cat in the Andes, and assorted others. He was so confident of
some that he assigned tentative taxonomic identifications. Interestingly,
in the decades since that exercise, not a single one of his candidates 
has emerged from the mists of mythology, even though the African and 
Amazonian rain forests (the favorite hideouts) have been much more 
thoroughly explored. But anyway, it wa'nt the zebra. It was the okapi.
A bit far afield for rec.backcountry, so I apologize. On the other hand,
if old Bernie is ever going to be vindicated, let's hope see it first
here.
on this net.
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry,rec.climbing
From: blagdon@engin.umich.edu (Kenneth James Clark )
Subject: Re: Cairns, Flags, and Fixed Wands
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 92 12:15:59 EDT
Organization: University of Michigan Engineering, Ann Arbor

I haven't seen such a vigilante mentality in a long time.  I'll
give you two reasons why you shouldn't knock over cairns WITHOUT
GETTING APPROVAL FROM THE RANGERS FIRST.

First, the people who put up the cairns (assuming they weren't the 
rangers and they didn't have permission) were complete assholes.  Leave
only footprints.  Don't make unnecessary changes.  If you knock over
cairns, you're no better.  No one (beyond the rangers) has a right to
make lasting changes to the backcountry.  If you don't like the cairns,
talk to the rangers and get their permission to take some out.  They're
charged with protecting the backcountry, not you.

Second, if you folks take out too many cairns, some peon is going to
head out there, get lost, nearly die, then report back to their 
legislator who will pressure the rangers to "improve" the trail.
Is that really what you want?  You'll end up turning some beautiful
places into amusement parks.  

No, I don't like most of the trail signs I see.  If you don't like them,
talk to the rangers, volunteer to remove excess cairns, get guidelines
on which to leave and which to remove, and follow the guidelines.  Don't
assume that you are enough of an authority to do what you please.  That's
the same stupidity used by the folks who put up cairns every 20 ft and
carve their initials into trees.

Ken
From: billf@hpcvra.cv.hp.com (Bill Faus)
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 15:34:53 GMT
Subject: Re: Virgin forest in New Hampshire?
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Co., Corvallis, OR, USA