HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: pajerek@telstar.kodak.com (Don Pajerek)
Subject: Re: What is United States of America like?
Reply-To: pajerek@telstar.kodak.com (Don Pajerek)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corp. - Telstar
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 15:54:45 GMT

In article <VEAL.576.725051472@utkvm1.utk.edu> VEAL@utkvm1.utk.edu (David Veal) writes:
>In article <Bzo279.JFC@unix.amherst.edu> pdchapin@unix.amherst.edu (PAUL D CHAPIN) writes:
>
>>David Veal (PA146008@utkvm1.utk.edu) wrote:
>>: In article <BzM8u5.JM3@unix.amherst.edu>
>>: pdchapin@unix.amherst.edu (PAUL D CHAPIN) writes:
>>: 
>>: >Jyrki Kuoppala (jkp@cs.HUT.FI) wrote:
>>: >

[stuff deleted]

>>: >: I hear reports of proposed legislation to required every telephone or
>>: >: other communication network operator be required to build taps for the
>>: >: Government on all equipment.
>>: >:
>>: >Tapping a phone is not that difficult.  It can be done anywhere.  This country
>>: >requires a court order in all but a few extreme cases.
>>: 
>>:         There's been far too much "Oops, you mean we were supposed to get
>>: a court order?"  Anyway, what with the advances in technology, it is getting
>>: harder and harder to do taps.  That's part of the big stink over encryption.
>>: Even if they can do the taps, they want to be able to read the communications.
>
>>If the court order isn't obtained, the evidence can't be used.  
>
>       Really?  But you know what the amusing thing is?  You know what you 
>need to get a court order these days?  An anonymous tip will do it in most 
>cases.  What protection is a court order that is that easy to get?
>


Not to mention the 'good faith' exemption just granted by the Supreme
Court not too long ago. Basically, this says that tainted evidence can
still be used, if the police can demonstrate a 'good-faith effort' to
follow the rules.


>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>David Veal               University of Tennessee Div. of Cont. Education


Don Pajerek

Standard disclaimers apply.
Newsgroups: alt.activism,alt.politics.usa.misc,talk.politics.misc
From: VEAL@utkvm1.utk.edu (David Veal)
Subject: Re: What is United States of America like?
Organization: University of Tennessee Division of Continuing Education
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 23:23:56 GMT

In article <1731@emoryu1.cc.emory.edu> libwca@emory.edu (Bill Anderson) writes:
>bud@mtek.com (Bud Hovell) writes:
>: 
>: [Contrary to evident popular opinion, "individual liberty" has never
>: been threatened on the occasion that *guilty* people end up in the
>: dock! This may not be the politically correct view, but it is a fact,
>: no less.]
>: 
>: If evidence obtained by search fails to evidence any such guilt, then
>: no harm has been done to individual liberty. If it *does* sufficiently
>: (to convince a jury) compel conviction, then neither has individual
>: liberty been harmed, since such liberty can only be exercised by all
>: when actual criminal behavior by the few is prosecuted.
>
>I sincerely hope that armed police officers never break down
>your door, throw you to the ground, handcuff you, terrify 
>your children and destroy your possesions, only to find later
>that they have made a mistake.  If they do, however, please
>be assured that they will apologize very nicely.

	No, they won't apologize.  Not nicely.  Not ever.  You'll
be doing well to get them to admit "mistakes were made."  That's because
it they *do* admit they screwed up, they're basically making an admission
of guilt which will haunt them at the inevitable civil trial.

    
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David Veal               University of Tennessee Div. of Cont. Education
                         Information Services Group
PA146008@utkvm1.utk.edu  (Mail to VEAL@utkvm1.utk.edu will bounce.)
Newsgroups: alt.activism
From: bob1@cos.com (Bob Blackshaw)
Subject: Re: What is United States of America like?
Organization: Corporation for Open Systems
Distribution: world 
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 16:43:18 GMT

In <1992Dec23.004028.23837@nntp.hut.fi> jkp@cs.HUT.FI (Jyrki Kuoppala) writes:

>In article <bob1.725046465@cos>, bob1@cos (Bob Blackshaw) writes:
>>Sorry Mark, I'm not blind to the faults of our government, nor am I blind
>>to areas where things can be improved. It's simply that I can't recall the
>>last time (or any time) when I stuck my nose and mouth into the internal
>>affairs of Finland, The United Kingdom, or the countries of any of the
>>other U.S.'s self appointed critics. If that pisses them, or you, off
>>try and imagine how upset I will be.

>Perhaps that's at least partly because the Finnish government has not
>pressured the country you live in to institute a drug prohibition, is
>not trying to change the patent and copyright legislation of it, is
>not forcing the country to conform to the Finnish ideas of export
>regulations, is not in the habit of invading other countries and shoot
>some people to kidnap their heads of state and engage in other acts of
>terrorism, does not hold the world's biggest nuclear arsenal (I
>think), and so on.

While the claims of who won the Cold War are debatable, would you rather
we had simply let the communists develop the biggest nuclear arsenal?

As to pressure re drugs, they don't do it with my knowledge or consent,
as I think the so-called 'war on drugs' is/was a mistaken way of going
about the problem.

What about other countries pressuring us on GATT to weaken our laws
regarding pesticides in farm produce, etc., these same countries
who put on such a big show in Rio?

Copyright laws? Sure, lets just let the rest of the world rip-off
our inventions and work. I mean why not, we've got enough money
as it is.

As to the invasion of Panama - sure someone blew it, but if I'm
expected to have sympathy for Noriega, don't count on it. Also,
I seem to recall a few of our people - university teachers and
news reporters who were held someplace for a few years through
the efforts of a 'foriegn government' (even though they hid
behind the Hezbollah (sp?).

Hey! We aren't perfect and have been known to screw up on occasion.
But on the one hand the rest of the world says we should go in
here with the army, we should go in there with the marines, then
when we do we're in deep s**t. Isolationism begins to sound
better every day.

What you are doing is sure a funny way of going about getting the
results you seem to want. If I thought the policies of the Finnish
government vis-a-vis the U.S. were strange, I would not post in
soc.culture.finland in quite the way you have. If you get a few
folks backs up, don't be surprised.

>//Jyrki

Bob.

Newsgroups: alt.activism,alt.politics.usa.misc,talk.politics.misc
From: pdchapin@unix.amherst.edu (PAUL D CHAPIN)
Subject: Re: What is United States of America like?
Followup-To: alt.activism,alt.politics.usa.misc,talk.politics.misc
Organization: Amherst College
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL7]
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 15:14:13 GMT

Mark Ryan Miller (zitsky+@CS.CMU.EDU) wrote:

: |> : I see the U.S. vice president saying "No I don't know that atheists
: |> : should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered
: |> : patriots. This is one nation under God."  This during his campaign,
: |> : and he is later elected president.
: |> 
: |> A comment almost no one here ever heard of.  He is also about to become
: |> a former President.
: |> : 
: 
: I just had to say that I disagree with virtually everything in the above
: response.  As for the last quote, it was from President George Herbert Walker Bush, and the conversation was with a reporter from an Atheist organization.
: It is well documented.  I can provide info, or you can look through some of the last few weeks messages on the atheist newsgroup.

I'm not questioning the quote.  Bush is a big enough twit to say something
like that.  I'm just not sure that it tells you anything about this country.
He wasn't elected because of that quote.  I'm a political junkie and I never
heard of it until the this year.
Newsgroups: alt.activism,talk.politics.misc,ca.politics
From: harelb@math.cornell.edu
Newsgroups: alt.activism
Subject: re: Email to congress
Date: 3 Jan 93 06:45:00 GMT
Nf-ID: #N:9301030643.AA09401@tba.msi.corne:90508477:000:656
Nf-From: math.cornell.edu!harelb    Jan  2 22:45:00 1993


From: harelb@math.cornell.edu (Harel Barzilai)
Subject: re: Email to congress

You can call the congressional switchboard and voice your opinion by
asking for your representative's office.

Tell your representative you want them to make it possible for the
public to send them email.

*********************************
Local number of U.S. Congress switchboard          (202) 224-3121
*********************************
[When you reach the Capitol Hill switchboard, simply ask to be
connected to the office of the Member, Senator or committee you
want to reach. Please call during normal business hours on the
East Coast.]
*********************************
Newsgroups: alt.activism,alt.politics.usa.misc,talk.politics.misc
From: bob1@cos.com (Bob Blackshaw)
Subject: Re: What is United States of America like?
Organization: Corporation for Open Systems
Distribution: world 
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 17:47:45 GMT

In <BzMDI7.7JI.2@cs.cmu.edu> zitsky+@CS.CMU.EDU (Mark Ryan Miller) writes:

>In article <BzM8u5.JM3@unix.amherst.edu>, pdchapin@unix.amherst.edu (PAUL D CHAPIN) writes:
>|> Jyrki Kuoppala (jkp@cs.HUT.FI) wrote:
>|> 
>|> : I hear reports of kids trained to inform to the officials about their
>|> : parents.
>|> 
>|> That's plan silly.

[ deletia]


>It's amazing to me that citizens of the US will not doubt that crimes occurring
>in other countries are wrong, but when someone tries to tell them of questionable activities in their own country, they shrug it off, ignore it, or tell someone they must be lying or have false information.  The 'sense of security and trust' here is sometimes scary.

Sorry Mark, I'm not blind to the faults of our government, nor am I blind
to areas where things can be improved. It's simply that I can't recall the
last time (or any time) when I stuck my nose and mouth into the internal
affairs of Finland, The United Kingdom, or the countries of any of the
other U.S.'s self appointed critics. If that pisses them, or you, off
try and imagine how upset I will be.

REB

>--Mark
Newsgroups: alt.activism,alt.politics.usa.misc,talk.politics.misc
From: pajerek@telstar.kodak.com (Don Pajerek)
Subject: Re: What is United States of America like?
Reply-To: pajerek@telstar.kodak.com (Don Pajerek)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corp. - Telstar
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 17:01:32 GMT

In article <1992Dec23.020652.18270@mtek.com> bud@mtek.com (Bud Hovell) writes:
>pajerek@telstar.kodak.com (Don Pajerek) writes:
>
>>Supreme Court, led by that friend of individual liberty, William
>>Rehnquist, doesn't agree.
>
>Left again. The power of the IRS to make such seizures was certainly
>*not* promolgated by the Rehnquist Court. That issue was settled at
>a time before either of us was born,


My reference to the Rehnquist Court was sparked by several decisions
they have made which tend to increase the prosecutorial powers of the
state as against individual liberty. For example, the 'good faith'
exception to the exclusionary rule.


>bud@mtek.com ... uunet!m2xenix!mtek!bud ... bud@rigel.cs.pdx.edu


Don Pajerek

Standard disclaimers apply.
Newsgroups: alt.activism,alt.politics.usa.misc,talk.politics.misc
From: bob1@cos.com (Bob Blackshaw)
Subject: Re: What is United States of America like?
Organization: Corporation for Open Systems
Distribution: world 
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 17:36:32 GMT

In <BzKr67.E6G@demon.co.uk> gtoal@pizzabox.demon.co.uk (Graham Toal) writes:

>In article <1992Dec19.232619.6118@nntp.hut.fi> jkp@cs.HUT.FI (Jyrki Kuoppala) writes:
>:I hear reports of kids trained to inform to the officials about their
>:parents.
>:
>:I hear reports of proposed legislation to required every telephone or
>:other communication network operator be required to build taps for the
>:Government on all equipment.
>:
>:I hear reports of proposals for mandatory registering encryption keys

>...

>I heard a report today (in the Times) of the US locking people up (free
>citizens - ex prisoners who've served their time; not people detained
>under whatever your equivalent of The Mental Health Act is) just in
>case they *might* commit a crime in the future.  The Times mentioned
>someone called Vance Cunningham.

The Times? Is that like the National Enquirer? For the love of Pete,
why does everyone in the world suddenly become an expert on this
country after reading some looney article in a newspaper, any news-
paper? Sounds like the proverbial crock to me.

>Whereas I can understand locking up dangerous psychos who've sworn to
>kill again on their release, in a Mental Health institution, locking up
>freed men who say they want to go straight, in a criminal prison,
>indefinitely, smacks of a totalitarian state.

>You'd better watch it America - you're taking on all the attributes
>of your old enemy Russia, and are in danger of losing any remaining
>repect from the rest of the world.

One stupid article and we're bound for hell, just like that! Well,
better watch it Britain, the way the RF is screwing up, you all are
bound for Republicanism. 
>G

REB

Newsgroups: alt.activism,alt.politics.usa.misc,talk.politics.misc
From: jkp@cs.HUT.FI (Jyrki Kuoppala)
Subject: Re: What is United States of America like?
Reply-To: jkp@cs.HUT.FI (Jyrki Kuoppala)
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 00:43:40 GMT

In article <BzM9Eo.Jvt@unix.amherst.edu>, pdchapin@unix (PAUL D CHAPIN) writes:
>I just realized where you got this item.  The UN Secretary General wants the
>US to do this.

No, it was from U.S. newspaper reports copied to usenet (somewhwere in
the somalia group I think).  The U.S. troops were saying they have a
duty to seize khat when confronted.

//Jyrki
Newsgroups: alt.activism,alt.politics.usa.misc,talk.politics.misc
From: aforum@moose.uvm.edu (autonome forum)
Subject: please...no more LaRouche fascist crap!! ok?!
Organization: University of Vermont -- Division of EMBA Computer Facility
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1993 12:09:02 GMT

What more need be said???

Fight fascism!!!!
Beware of LaRouche fascist front-groups!!!

Newsgroups: alt.activism,talk.politics.misc,ca.politics
From: jkp@cs.HUT.FI (Jyrki Kuoppala)
Subject: Re: What is United States of America like?
Reply-To: jkp@cs.HUT.FI (Jyrki Kuoppala)
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 00:30:59 GMT

In article <Bzo279.JFC@unix.amherst.edu>, pdchapin@unix (PAUL D CHAPIN) writes:
>:        I take it, then, that you've missed all the news reports on children
>: turning their parents in, usually for drug abuse, sometimes for other things?
>
>That wasn't the claim.  The claim was that they were "trained".  This implies
>a program of instruction.  That's plain silly.

"Silly" is not quite the word I would use.  Perhaps "fascist" or
"totalitarian".  A quote from Message-ID <1gqi26INN1vk@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>:

From: craig@mainstream.com (Craig Peterson)
Subject: kids turning in their parents
To: home-ed-politics@mainstream.com (Multiple recipients of list)

[ .. ]

"I told the police over the phone and in person that I wanted my
parents to get help,"  Darrin says.  "I thought the police would come
and get the drugs and tell them that drugs are wrong.  They never said
that they would arrest them.  It didn't say that in the video.

"The police officer held me by the shoulder and made me watch them put
handcuffs on my mom and dad and put them in the police car," he adds.
"The last thing my mom said to me was not to worry, that it was not my
fault, that she was sorry and that she loved me.

"I always thought police were honest and told the truth.  But in
court, I heard them tell the judge that I wanted my mom and dad
arrested.  This is a lie.  I did not tell them that."

Darrin sys he believes drugs are wrong and will never do them, but he
will never call 911 again either.

"I just don't want to hurt anybody again," he says.
Newsgroups: alt.activism,alt.politics.usa.misc,talk.politics.misc
From: gtoal@pizzabox.demon.co.uk (Graham Toal)
Subject: Re: What is United States of America like?
Organization: Cuddlehogs Anonymous
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 05:54:58 GMT

In article <bob1.725045792@cos> bob1@cos.com (Bob Blackshaw) writes:
:>I heard a report today (in the Times) of the US locking people up (free
:>citizens - ex prisoners who've served their time; not people detained
:>under whatever your equivalent of The Mental Health Act is) just in
:>case they *might* commit a crime in the future.  The Times mentioned
:>someone called Vance Cunningham.
:
:The Times? Is that like the National Enquirer? For the love of Pete,
:why does everyone in the world suddenly become an expert on this
:country after reading some looney article in a newspaper, any news-
:paper? Sounds like the proverbial crock to me.

Actually, The Times (of London) is probably the world's most respected
newspaper.  It's not one I like a great deal as it's politics are too
right-wing for my taste; I prefer the (Manchester) Guardian myself. But
it's about as far from the National Enquirer as you can get.

:One stupid article and we're bound for hell, just like that! Well,
:better watch it Britain, the way the RF is screwing up, you all are
:bound for Republicanism. 

I take it this means you *haven't* heard about these cases?  Surely not
(voluntary, of course) press censorship in action?

:REB

G
Newsgroups: alt.activism,alt.politics.usa.misc,talk.politics.misc
From: bob1@cos.com (Bob Blackshaw)
Subject: Re: What is United States of America like?
Organization: Corporation for Open Systems
Distribution: world 
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 16:57:07 GMT

In <1992Dec23.004340.23957@nntp.hut.fi> jkp@cs.HUT.FI (Jyrki Kuoppala) writes:

>In article <BzM9Eo.Jvt@unix.amherst.edu>, pdchapin@unix (PAUL D CHAPIN) writes:
>>I just realized where you got this item.  The UN Secretary General wants the
>>US to do this.

>No, it was from U.S. newspaper reports copied to usenet (somewhwere in
>the somalia group I think).  The U.S. troops were saying they have a
>duty to seize khat when confronted.

I saw this in the Washington Post (not that I believe everything I
see in the Post :-/). However, I also saw an interview with one
of the 'technicals' (is that how you spell bandit these days?) last
night and he was saying something to the effect that they chew this
stuff until they get real high and then go out and shoot up the
town. So who are we to believe? Some claim it is just like our
coffee break, some claim it is a lot worse. The expression on
that'technical's' face was enough to convince me of the latter
view. BTW it was on PBS and it was not the sort of show that
the government would have done, if you get my drift.

>//Jyrki

Bob.
From: gtoal@pizzabox.demon.co.uk (Graham Toal)
Subject: Re: What is United States of America like?
Organization: Cuddlehogs Anonymous
Distribution: world 
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 06:04:53 GMT

In article <bob1.725046465@cos> bob1@cos.com (Bob Blackshaw) writes:
:Sorry Mark, I'm not blind to the faults of our government, nor am I blind
:to areas where things can be improved. It's simply that I can't recall the
:last time (or any time) when I stuck my nose and mouth into the internal
:affairs of Finland, The United Kingdom, or the countries of any of the
:other U.S.'s self appointed critics.

Your nose personally, or your countries?  The US has certainly interfered
in the UK (and no doubt Finland) regularly over the years.  Do you want
a list?

The reason that we damned furriners sometimes point out the shortcomings
of your state (apart from a certain smug satisfaction in retaliation
to the way we've had your constitution rammed down our throats for
years as being so morally superior) is that at some remove from your
daily affairs we perhaps see more clearly the woods where you see only
trees.

By the way, you're welcome to criticise the oppressive right-wing govt
we have over here, who pull many of the stunts that your recent right-
wing oppressive govt has been pulling for years.  It'll be an interesting
experiment indeed to see if your new administration can make some
difference to these abuses of power (eg WOD) or if it's entrenched at
such a low level in the hierarchy that no amount of good will from the
top will change things...
G
From: pdchapin@unix.amherst.edu (PAUL D CHAPIN)
Subject: Re: What is United States of America like?
Followup-To: alt.activism,alt.politics.usa.misc,talk.politics.misc
Organization: Amherst College
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL7]
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 15:11:33 GMT

David Veal (PA146008@utkvm1.utk.edu) wrote:
: In article <BzM8u5.JM3@unix.amherst.edu>
: pdchapin@unix.amherst.edu (PAUL D CHAPIN) writes:
: 
: >Jyrki Kuoppala (jkp@cs.HUT.FI) wrote:
: >
: >: I hear reports of kids trained to inform to the officials about their
: >: parents.
: >
: >That's plan silly.
: 
:        I take it, then, that you've missed all the news reports on children
: turning their parents in, usually for drug abuse, sometimes for other things?

That wasn't the claim.  The claim was that they were "trained".  This implies
a program of instruction.  That's plain silly.

: 
: >: I hear reports of proposed legislation to required every telephone or
: >: other communication network operator be required to build taps for the
: >: Government on all equipment.
: >:
: >Tapping a phone is not that difficult.  It can be done anywhere.  This country
: >requires a court order in all but a few extreme cases.
: 
:         There's been far too much "Oops, you mean we were supposed to get
: a court order?"  Anyway, what with the advances in technology, it is getting
: harder and harder to do taps.  That's part of the big stink over encryption.
: Even if they can do the taps, they want to be able to read the communications.
If the court order isn't obtained, the evidence can't be used.  It's called
the exclusionary rule, I believe.  Authorities have got enough to do to spend
much time gathering evidence they can't use.
: 
: >: I hear reports of a war being declared and fought in USA - a war
: >: against "drugs", with the Bill of Rights being the major casualty.
: >:
: >Bullshit.  The Bill of Rights is alive and well.
: 
:         No, the Bill of Rights is dead and buried.  There are wisps of the
: first still hanging around for, I would guess, sentimental value, but the
: second through the tenth are, for all practical purposes, gone completely.

Then why are conservatives still screaming tha the police had be handicapped
by it?  The only one I know that could be questioned is the interpretation
of the due process clause.  Everything else is doing fine in my neighborhood.

Newsgroups: alt.activism,alt.conspiracy
From: arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee)
Subject: Re: Rape After Rape After Rape
Organization: Johns Hopkins University CS Dept.
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1992 23:15:14 GMT

In article <1992Dec26.214057.5493@panix.com> gcf@panix.com (Gordon Fitch) writes:
>Atrocity stories can be believed only when they describe
>both, or all sides, as committing the atrocities, or when
>the perpetrators and the reporters are from the same side
>(e.g. My Lai 4).

Obviously all those Jewish reports of Nazi atrocities in WWII should have been
discounted then, since they didn't also describe Jews as commiting atrocities
on Nazis, right?
--
"the bogosity in a field equals the bogosity imported from related areas, plus
the bogosity generated internally, minus the bogosity expelled or otherwise
disposed of."  -- K. Eric Drexler

Ken Arromdee (arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu, arromdee@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu)
Newsgroups: alt.activism,misc.activism.progressive,soc.culture.arabic