HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: roger@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Expansion Boosting Stats??
Date: 20 Aug 92 19:26:43 GMT
Organization: Princeton University
Originator: news@nimaster

In article <92233.132930DGS4@psuvm.psu.edu> <DGS4@psuvm.psu.edu> writes:
>              1973-76          1977-80      Increase
>AL HR           114/team       135/team         18%
>NL HR           108/team       116/team          7%

>AL BA           .258           .267             3.5%
>NL BA           .255           .259             1.6%

>Just the fact that Peter Gammons brought up the subject makes me leery
>(AAAAGH, that reminds of how Tim Leary sabotaged the Orioles).  However,
>just on these few basic numbers, there does appear to be an effect.  I'd
>like to hear from the sabermetricians if there have been attempts to
>explain these effects, what those explanations entail, and still, if
>there is an effect, people's guestimations of who they think might have
>a MONSTER season next year.

Well, first yu have to look at the bigger picture, namely, what else
happened in baseball.  The DH is part of it.  Introduced in 1973, the DH
didn't have much effect at first, but the offense in the American league
gradually rose to a level higher than the NL by about 0.5 R/G, where it
has stayed ever since.  Some of the spread took place in 1977-80.

As I look again, I see that the spread started in small amounts.  73 and
75 had a 200-run difference, 74 and 76 hardly any at all.  76 was a
terrible year for hitting, in any case; Nettles led the AL with 32 HR,
and Jackson was 2nd with 27!!!!  (Five NL players had >= 27; Schmidt led
with 38.)

1974-77 was a weird time in baseball.  The balk rule change of '74 made
for many more SB, and for a while the AL had more SB/G than the NL; as
much as 20%.  This changed around 1977, and the NL soon had a commanding
lead in SB.
1976  NL 1364 AL 1690
1980  NL 1839 AL 1455 (14 teams, --> 32% less than the NL!)

In short, the AL was simply moving more toward the slugging offense.  SB
have since come back as well, btw.

If there was such a long-term effect, why was 1978 a relatively poor
year for offense in the AL?  77, 79, and 80 were much better, but
several hundred runs.  Seems to me like more than one effect working
here.


In general, I have found from looking at the stats of the five league
expansions so far that the expansion blip lasts only one year, and that
everything else can be explained by the other sources of variation that
baseball is heir to.

Roger
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: gritter@cs.purdue.EDU (Carl R. Gritter)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: 1992 r.s.bb Mock Expansion Draft - Update #2
Date: 12 Aug 92 22:15:54 GMT
Organization: Department of Computer Science, Purdue University

In article  <1992Aug12.175750.13011@news2.cis.umn.edu> kirsch@epx.cis.umn.edu (Dave Nobody Kirsch) writes:

>to the draft, with two exceptions (1) Players that were signed at age 19 or 
>older and have less than three years of professional experience are
>implicitly protected and (2) Players signed at age 18 or younger with less
>than four years of professional experience are implicitly protected.

Isn't it true that if a player that falls under category 1 or 2 is
brought up to the majors, he loses this "implicit" protection?

The Cardinals are leaving a Cuban pitcher named Arocha at AAA this
year for this exact reason.  For the same reason, the Expos will not
call up super pitching prospect Tavo Alvarez (now at AA -- would be a
bit premature anyways) until next year at the earliest.  If this were
not true, pitcher Chris Haney (now at Indy) would not have to be
protected even though he was on the Expos opening day roster.

Carl
From: usscoop1@bnr.ca (Chuck McCusker P015)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Peter Gammons: A Query
Date: 14 Aug 92 12:24:34 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Bell-Northern Research, BNR-RTP

In article <14AUG92.02542454@vax.clarku.edu>, hhenderson@vax.clarku.edu writes:
|> Peter Gammons must make a fair amount of money, writing for the
|> Globe and doing his thing on ESPN, so couldn't he buy himself a chin?

Or some lips.

Chuck Ross - A's in '92, done with mirrors.
From: ds2i+@andrew.cmu.edu (Donald Smith)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Left-Handed Knuckleballers??
Date: 21 Aug 92 17:35:44 GMT
Organization: Doctoral student, Urban and Public Affairs, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA




Rich Saveur, formerly of the Pirates system and recently called up by (I
believe) the Angels or Twins is a Left Handed Knuckleballer.  I saw
Saveur pitch for two seasons in Harrisburg and he's a real battler.
From: demers@cs.ucsd.edu (David DeMers)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Giants sweep Dodgers, Beck saves them all.
Date: 17 Aug 92 20:58:22 GMT
Organization: =CSE Dept., U.C. San Diego


P.S. The fourth game is today, so it hasn't quite been a sweep
yet.

-- 
Dave DeMers			 ddemers@UCSD   demers@cs.ucsd.edu
Computer Science & Engineering	C-014		demers%cs@ucsd.bitnet
UC San Diego					...!ucsd!cs!demers
La Jolla, CA 92093-0114	(619) 534-0688, or -8187, FAX: (619) 534-7029
From: paula@koufax.cv.hp.com (Paul Andresen)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Gross pitches no-hitter, Dodgers win
Date: 19 Aug 92 19:14:31 GMT
Article-I.D.: hpcvaac.1992Aug19.191431.9455
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA

In article <ncovey.714150951@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu>, ncovey@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (neil covey) writes:
|> After recieving two four-hit, and one five-hit gem(s) from their pitchers
|> and still going 0-3, the Dodgers finally managed to win a game when
|> Gross(!!!!?) pitched a no-hitter. If this is what it takes for the
|> Dodgers to win, a long year is just going to get longer.  

This reminds me of the Dodger teams of the 60's when a rally would consist of
Wills walking, stealing 2nd, getting sacrificed to 3rd, and coming home on a
sac fly.  

It may be apocryphal, but supposedly when Don Drysdale was once informed that
Koufax had pitched a no-hitter his first question was "Did he win?"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
              If you're really hip, the passing years will show.
                                           ......Tower Of Power

  paula@koufax.cv.hp.com   Paul Andresen  Hewlett-Packard  (503)-750-3511

    home: 3006 NW McKinley    Corvallis, OR 97330       (503)-752-8424
                            A SABR member since 1979
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: zappala@Xerox.com (Daniel Zappala)
Subject: Re: Mel's Enfant Terrible Todd (WAS Question-infield fly rule)
Reply-To: zappala@Xerox.com (Daniel Zappala)
Organization: Xerox PARC
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1992 21:16:45 GMT

In article <36878@sdcc12.ucsd.edu>, demers@cs.ucsd.edu (David DeMers) writes:
> 
> Er, well, usually the batter isn't Benito Santiago, and will
> run out the pop fly, thus almost certainly beating the relay.
> So with just a runner on first, it's very hard to turn a DP 
> on a pop fly.
> 

So have you ever seen an infielder drop a *line drive* on purpose, in order
to get a double play?


Daniel
From: gene@ok.sw.stratus.com (Eugene Loparco)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Oriole News
Date: 18 Aug 92 14:52:15 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Stratus Computer, Software Engineering

In article <1992Aug18.002650.20271@leland.Stanford.EDU> claudius@leland.Stanford.EDU (Nelson Lu) writes:
>In article <1992Aug17.235657.17683@leland.Stanford.EDU> paladin@leland.Stanford.EDU (Jason Gische) writes:
>
>>I don't undertand what's wrong with Eddie Murray's numbers.
>>Last I checked he was hitting around .260 but was in the top ten in the league
>>in RBI and in the top five in the league in doubles.   It's not his best season, but I sure wouldn't call it a poor performance.  Especially in a year that looks to be dominated by pitchers for the most part.
>
>A year dominated by pitchers?  Check Brady Anderson's and Rene Gonzales' career
>numbers vs. their numbers this year. :-)

Yes, I agree with the previous post.  I have no numbers to prove it except that
in my Rotisserie League every team ERA this year is well below last years and
all batting averages and slugging percentages are lower...

>
>Besides, when you are batting cleanup, it is not that difficult to be in the
>top 10 in RBIs!  Pete O'Brien had a thoroughly horrible season last season, but
>he had 81 RBIs.  Murray's OBP is pathetic, and that means that when he walks
>up there, *68%* of the time he will make an out.
>
>>Please leave Eddie alone.  He's been one of the few bright spots for us Mets fans.  Pathetic, I know.  At least he's not on the DL!
>
>You are getting the honest truth.  (And I don't think I provoked this one
>either.)
>
>Bobby Bonilla's contribution, despite injuries, was much greater than Murray's.
>(I am not even sure if Murray's contribution is positive.)  Magadan also did
>an excellent job.  Murray is *not* one of the Mets' more valuable players.

Two more guys who walk alot.


Just to clear it up, I am NOT an Eddie Murray fan.  Quite the contrary, I never
liked him much.  But he's still having a better year than Milligan, hands down.


-Gene
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: michaelh@netcom.com (Michael Hernandez)
Subject: Re: It is going to happen. (was Re: St. Pete Guppies 1993 lineup
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 92 22:44:15 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 
Summary: NOT!

In article <1992Aug20.214149.14622@bradley.bradley.edu> dave@bradley.bradley.edu (David Vessell) writes:
>michaelh@netcom.com (Michael Hernandez) writes:
>
>Bob Lurie is joining the movement to oust Fay Vincent in exchange for owner
>support of his sale of the Giants to Tampa Bay.  A Lurie aid either denied
>the report or declined comment.
>
BOB LURIE, through a spokesman, denied he has joined any group
that is attempting to remove Fay Vincent.  "San Francisco 
Chronicle".

>The city of St. Petersberg announced that it will sue the city of San
>Francisco if it attempts to interfere with the sale of the Giants.
>-- 
The City of San Francisco has announced it is currently investigating
the process by which BOB LURIE obtained permission to escape from
his lease early.  It seems that SF Law requires that all changes
to a city lease be approved by the parks commission...This process
did not take place.  Additionally, San Francisco has already 
initiated, through local Federal representatives, an inquiry that
could lead to an investigation of the legality of Major League 
Baseballs' exemption from antitrust.  

My point is this...The National League Franchise, called the 
GIANTS, currently resides in San Francisco.  Anything else 
that surrounds that fact, only lives in the world of 
speculation.;-)
>=========*davE*.....making the world safe for intelligent dance music.=========
>--(David Vessell)--(Bradley University Computing Services)-(dave@bradley.edu)--


-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
|michaelh@netcom.com             	   At the still point....       |
|SYSTEM V - MicroUNIX   	       	   There is the dance....       |
|(408) 241-0595 Voice		       ... And there is only the dance! |
|(408) 241-0371 Fax				T.S. Elliot		|
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: rstimets@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (robert and stimets)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: [baseball] baseball is boring
Date: 21 Aug 92 21:02:12 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Indiana University

In article <92234.010754IO20456@MAINE.MAINE.EDU> Ryan Robbins <IO20456@MAINE.MAINE.EDU> writes:
>paul@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Paul R Krueger) writes:
>
>>Everybody has their own reasons for liking whatever sports they like.
>>If you don't like baseball, fine. Get on the damn rec.sport(NOT!).pingpong
>>net. It stands to reason that most people subscribing to this net
>>like baseball so you really have no business spewing forth your opinion
>                  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>which most people probably don't really care about.
>
>The name of this newsgroup is REC.SPORT.BASEBALL. If Mr Chung wishes
>to post to the group to express his opinion that baseball is boring,
>then he can do so. He has every right to "spew forth" his opinion.
>Just because we all disagree with his opinion is no reason to tell
>him to get lost. He has every "business" to post to the group to tell
>us baseball is boring, just like it is our business to post to the
>contrary.
>
>Sorry, but I do care about Mr Chung's opinion. I want to know why
>fans of other sports believe baseball is boring.
>
>Are you saying, Mr Krueger, that if the majority disagrees with the
>minority then the minority may not speak and be heard? You have every
>right to argue against Mr Chung's opinion. You do not have the right
>to tell him he does not have the right to state his opinion, if only
>because the majority disagrees.

Perhaps Mr Krueger's wording was too strong, but his sentiment was 
appropriate.  This net is indeed called REC.SPORT.BASEBALL, but the
name could be REC.SPORT.BASEBALL.FAN just as well.  And for someone
to make such a remark with such obvious intent to IRRITATE as Mr Chung
did is uncalledfor.  I don't know what other groups Chung subscribes to
but suppose, for instance, that he regularly posts to ALT.NUDE.SUNBATHING.
Would you not think he'd be more than a little annoyed if some religious
moron wrote "Sunbathing is immoral.  God says so!" onto that net?
The immediate response is to tell him to press 'u' whenever he sees
the words ALT.NUDE.SUNBATHING and to mind his own business.

Now of course some folks would not want to react in this way:
a more rancorous sort would ask him to explain why he thinks sunbathing
is immoral with the clear intent of dismissing any supporting arguments
as folly, or with the hope of starting some inane, endless, thread, of 
boring and pointless argument as I'm afraid has just happened.

RStimets
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: luigi@sgi.com (Randy Palermo)
Subject: Re: Suncoast Monstrosity
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc., Mountain View, CA
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 22:23:41 GMT

In article <1992Aug14.081102.12985@leland.Stanford.EDU> altus@leland.Stanford.EDU (Steve Altus) writes:
>In article <1992Aug14.035541.18820@midway.uchicago.edu> clmn@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>>
Bunch of stuff on Florida and weather deleted
>
>i've been silent on this issue the whole time...i HATE domes, i HATE astro
>turf, and i like being able to see NL teams here while i'm at stanford (and
>have no plans to ever live in Tampa again)...but i must tell you, as one who
>has lived in both places very recently, no matter what the die-hard 
>Giant fans here say, from what I'VE seen i must admit that the fans in 
>Tampa/St. Pete deserve a team much more than the ones here...
>
Why do you say that the fans in Tampa/St. Pete deserve a team more then the
FANS in SF? Is it because they built a dome to steal a team from someone
else? That can be pushed through with a small minority of the population
and politics. Is it because the FANS of the Bay Area voted down the stadium
proposals? Couple of facts here: 

1) The FANS, most likely, voted for it. It was the non-fans who voted it
   down.
2) The Bay Area didn't get to vote on it, only selected cities. It is well
   documented that the majority of Giants fans do NOT come from SF.

What happens to your theory after the rose is off the bloom. The team
has been there for a few years, they're losing, the newness has worn off,
they have trouble attracting free agents because they play in dome or 
one reason or another, attendance is declining, etc., etc. Will the Tampa/
St. Pete area deserve the team more then? The point is: every area is 
going to have up times and down times. Fan support will be a function
of winning, marketing, dynamics of the region (recessions and such) and
uncontrollable elements such as weather, none of which is changable by
the fans. One of my bugaboos about the Giants is that they have done a
miserable job of marketing the team over the years and have failed to
develope a large fan base, therefore, if the team doesn't win and win
big attendance is down. It's not good enough to simply put a team on the
field. You have to give the fan more then that for the dollar. If they
don't do it in Tampa/St. Pete and attendance declines, someone will say
that they don't deserve them either. 

Give the Bay Area fans a break. In the face of what the Giants management
has given them, they should be given praise for their loyal support.

luigi
--
Randy Palermo   luigi@csd.sgi.com    Fax: (415)961-6502
Silicon Graphics Computer Systems, 2011 N. Shoreline Blvd Mt. View, CA 94039
"Play an accordion, go to jail. That's the LAW"
From: rc@hal.COM (Rolland Crunk)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Dream Team
Date: 12 Aug 92 19:25:08 GMT
Organization: HaL Computer Systems, Inc.
NNTP-Posting-Host: malibog.hal.com

In article <1992Aug12.174701.9780@adobe.com> snichols@adobe.com (Sherri Nichols) writes:
>In article <16be90INNeqd@malibog.hal.COM> rc@hal.COM (Rolland Crunk) writes:
>>I completely disagree. IMO David Cone is the best pitcher in either
>>league (yep even better than Roger Clemens). I wouldn't mention Drabek
>>in the same breath.
>
>Care to provide any justification for that opinion?  I'd be very interested
>in *why* you think David Cone is better than Roger Clemens.
>
>Sherri Nichols
>snichols@adobe.com
>
>

First of all don't get me wrong, I think Roger Clemens is an excellent
pitcher. That is exactly why I use him to compare with David Cone. 
I feel DC is now (this year) beginning to show what he is capable of
doing. You can't ignore his 194 strikeouts (8/2/92) (yeah I know
he gets to pitch against pitcher where RC doesn't). If one goes 
strictly by ERA then there are pitchers that are ahead of him (and
RC for that matter). Same goes for wins (gotta have an offense behind
you to win).

I'm not alone in holding this opinion.  One of the magazines (Sports or 
Inside Sports, don't remember) polled players on several issues (last spring),
one was "who is the best pitcher in the major leagues?". Yep RC was way out 
in front (43% or something like that), but guess who was second? DC was (9% 
if I remember correctly).

Granted I'm not a professional baseball player, but IMHO, I place
David Cone first and Roger Clemens second (considering only starters). 

rc
// Rolland Crunk
// HaL Computer Systems 
// rc@hal.com
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: hbrooks@uiatma.atmos.uiuc.edu (Harold_Brooks)
Subject: Re: the knuckleball
Organization: NSSL
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 15:40:25 GMT

In article <1992Aug19.183711.5292@cs.rose-hulman.edu> rickert@NeXTwork.Rose-Hulman.Edu (John H. Rickert) writes:
>
>In article <57167@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> poutsmaj@mace.cc.purdue.edu (unknown)  
>writes:
>> FYI:
>> 
>> A knuckleball does not have "no spin" as is a common misconception
>> (at least this is true for a *good* knuckleball).  If this were
>> true, it would not be possible to throw a knuckle-curve (a la Burt
>> Hooten).
>> 
>> I read many years ago in Scientific American (I think) that the "ideal"
>> knuckleball rotates once from pitcher to catcher to maximize aerodynamic
>> effects.  
>
>I recall reading the the best knucleballs execute a 1/4-rotation, a full  
>rotation equalizes the forces too much. But it has been a while since I've  
>read those books.

Chalk one up for Rose-Hulman!

Watts and Sawyer (1975) measured forces on baseballs in a wind tunnel as
a function of seam orientation.  Using the measured forces, they then did
some calculations as to the movement of a ~50 mph knuckleball.  They
found that the ball could be deflected from a straight path by up to 
0.3 m on its way to the plate if it spun only 1/4 times from pitcher to
catcher.  The deflection is much smaller by the time you get to 1/2 rev
(+/- ~0.05 m).  The problem with trying to throw a ball with ~0 spin is
that there is a torque on the ball due to the asymmetry of the flow
around the ball.  Exactly how slowly you can rotate a ball in practice
is not known.  

A good place to start for looking at the aerodynamics of balls is 
Mehta, R. D., 1985:  Aerodynamics of sports balls.  Annual Rev. Fluid
  Mech., 17, 151-189.

There have been a number of articles over the years in the American
Journal of Physics on the subject, most notably

Briggs, L. J., 1959:  Effect of spin and speed on the lateral deflection
  of a baseball;  and the Magnus effect for smooth spheres.  Am. J. Phys.,
  27, 589-596.

Watts, R. G. and E. Sawyer, 1975:  Aerodynamics of a knuckleball.  Am.
  J. Phys., 43, 960-63.

Weaver, R., 1976:  Comment on "Aerodynamics of a knuckleball."  Am. J. 
  Phys., 44, 1215.

There has probably been more work done on the cricket balls than on 
baseballs, but the techniques and issues are similar.  The differences
in number of seams and rules concerning what can be done to a ball
(e.g., 'shining' or scuffing, etc.) and how its thrown make up a large
part of the distinctions. 

Harold
-- 
Harold Brooks                    hbrooks@uiatma.atmos.uiuc.edu
National Severe Storms Laboratory/CIMMS (Norman, OK)
Andres Galarraga (Through 18 August)  .228 BA  .354 SLG  .271 OBA
28 H away from .300  8 HBP  8 BB    684+ PA w/o a sacrifice
From: ENVIRON@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Say it's so! Baseball in Tampa Bay!!!
Date: 12 Aug 92 21:13:44 GMT
 <1992Aug12.152248.6422@adobe.com>
 <92225.100627ENVIRON@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
 <1992Aug12.182523.11224@adobe.com>
Organization: Stanford Linear Accelerator Center

In article <1992Aug12.182523.11224@adobe.com>, snichols@adobe.com (Sherri
Nichols) says:
>
>[monstrous amounts deleted]
>
>And you see, I'm in love with the *game*.  The *game* is bigger than
>individual player or team.
>

     Hmm.  I guess I had never really thought about that.  If you don't have
any kind of emotional attachment to a team, I guess it doesn't matter where
they go as long as there's a team around.
     I could never feel that way about baseball, though.  I love the game,
but I love the teams I love more than that.  You say that having grown up
in a place about six hours by car from the nearest team makes you just
happy to have any team close by, but I don't see that.  I grew up six hours
from the nearest team, too... By plane.  Not too many opportunities for
major league baseball in Anchorage, Alaska.  We watched whatever CBS cared to
show us six times a year and got sterile news reports ala USA Today.  It's
been great to experience a home team... I can totally appreciate being able to
go to the games myself, read the biased local coverage, and actually care
whether or not the Giants win... Taking them away really sucks.
     Bummer you couldn't have been more into the Giants... IMHO, it makes
the seasons a lot more fun.

Brett
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: claudius@leland.Stanford.EDU (Nelson Lu)
Subject: Re: Phillies/Orioles Trade(Scarsone/Bell)
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 92 19:50:13 GMT

In article <23672@oasys.dt.navy.mil> hambric@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Stephen Hambric) writes:
>
>Let's qualify this:  clearly better in your opinion according to selected
>statistics.  In *my* opinion, Murray is a future HOFer who should have
>closed out his career in Balmer.

Even if that means blocking Randy Milligan?
>
>The E-man should have been worth a hell of a lot more than a steady
>set up man (in my opinion).  You're right though, the Tettleton trade
>was far worse and will live forever in Oriole infamy.  (Maybe when the
>Micker is a free agent he'll resign with the O's for megabucks).

Why is Murray worth more than a steady setup man?  At that time, he appeared
to be no better than an average first baseman, and since then, he has had one
below average season ('89), an excellent season ('90), a very poor season
('91), and a below average season ('92).  Do you really expect someone to give
up something significant?

===============================================================================
GO CALIFORNIA ANGELS!
===============================================================================
Nelson Lu (claudius@leland.stanford.edu)