HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: curcija@medr0.ecs.umass.edu (Dragan Curcija)
Subject: Re: Stopping Another Holocaust
Organization: University of Massachusetts, Amherst
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1992 19:33:58 GMT

In article <1992Aug14.083239.14722@husc3.harvard.edu> stojanov@husc10.harvard.edu (Milan Stojanovic) writes:
>
>Mr. ( Dr.?) Curcija. please list them, so I can read them.
>Would you?  
>
>Milan

	Mr. Stojanovic is asking to list clear statements that the war in 
B&H is also war of agression from Serbia.  Well, there were so many
articles, reports, and clear statements about what is going on, not only in
B&H, but also in Croatia and the rest of former Yugoslavia, that I almost
find pointless giving any example.  It must be ultimate ignorance to
"innocently" ask about 'clear statements', and it remainds me of Mr. Milosevic 
and his "naive" look, when he repeatedly stated that Serbia is not in war,
and that there are no irregular units from Serbia.
	Now, instead of going back and spend so much time searching for
'clear statements' (was that you that refered me at one point to search
thru archives!?), I will rather reffer you to read latest Helsinki Watch
report with the names of 9 war criminals, where you can see who heads the
list of them.  That is the clearest statement so far about the agression
of Serbia in B&H.
	Let me state at this point (I did many times before, but let me repeat)
that I support the right of Serbian people to selfdetermination, as it was
granted to other nations through the recognition of secessionist republics, but
the way of agression that was chosen by the Serbian (now officially) war
criminal(s) is wrong and I violently oppose it.  Serbs in B&H will only loose
this way, and may never win their independence.

Regards,
Dragan

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Historia  Magistra  Vitae  Est
___________________________________________________________________________

P.S.  You can use simple Mr., thank you.  I am not so fond of professor,
or Dr. titles as some other seem to be. 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,eunet.politics
From: jdd1@cec1.wustl.edu (James Dimos Dimarogonas)
Subject: Re: EDUCATION SPECIAL: MAP OF THE WORLD
Organization: Washington University, St. Louis Mo.
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 22:07:57 GMT

In article <1992Aug18.195329.9777@sunbim.be> sk@sunbim.be () writes:
>to solve it's economic problems, and mess it created by moving in
>1920's 2 million people from Asia into North Greece, and deporting
>the original population which is Slavic by origin. Or maybe
>Greece is following the example of the big friend Serbia?

What is this?  If I recall corectly 2 million were the total number
of refugees. Only a part of that went to macedonia.  Can somebody please
check these numbers?  And further more there was no deportation of
slavic population.  There was an exchange of populations but that
was after the balkan wars, not in the 20's.  The same way slavs left
Greece, Greeks left the slavic areas.  This was by treaty.  As for
whethere the whole original population was slavic, that does not even
deserve an answer.
>
>Sasa.
>
>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
>= Sasa Konecni                     e-mail: sk@sunbim.be           =
>= BIM   sa/nv                      tel:    +32 (2) 759.59.25      =
>= Research & Development           fax:    +32 (2) 759.47.95      =
>= Kwikstraat 4,   B-3078 Everberg,    Belgium                     =
>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
>
>

Regards

James Dimarogonas 
Xref: sparky soc.culture.yugoslavia:8015 soc.culture.greek:7607 soc.culture.europe:7392
From: cjp8b@dayhoff.med.Virginia.EDU (Chris Penington)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.greek
Subject: Re: EDUCATION SPECIAL: MAP OF THE WORLD
Date: 19 Aug 92 01:33:11 GMT
Organization: University of Virginia


blah blah blah
>
>MACEDONIA WAS, IS AND WILL BE FOREVER GREEK!!!!
>
blah blah blah

MACEDONIA IS NOT GREEK

blah blah blah

IS

IS NOT

IS

IS NOT

Please stop cross posting your arguments about Macedonia to
soc.culture.australian


EDIT YOUR NEWSGROUPS LINE!!!!!!!!


Chris
-- 
Chris Penington (cjp8b@virginia.edu)             .A---------.        My
Biochemistry Dept., Box 440                     /o           `   Favourite
UVa Health Sciences Ctr,                       (_,           7   Marsupial
Charlottesville, Va 22908   (804)924-8210         \>~~~~~~z7
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: nyu
Subject: Re: Stopping Another Holocaust
Keywords: 
 
Organization: New York University
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 20:30:49 GMT

In article 14657@husc3.harvard.edu, stojanov@husc10.harvard.edu (Milan Stojanovic) writes:
> Just a finishing note on Mr.XX's posting.

No, not a finishing note at all. And it's XXX to you.

>  He did not produce a single
> argument up to now, excluding some highly illogical stuff about
> phones in Sarajevo ( source: his private communication with family, I 
> guess).  His only purpose is to avoid serious arguments and play
> on the emotions.  I understand that, since his emotions are
> running high, and he knows that he would not be able, together with
> the rest of the world to make Serbs live under Muslim rule once again
> ( or to that matter Croatian rule once again).

Ahhh. Here is the rub. In all its glory, here, exposed, is the rub.
This is the thing that drives all this rabid hatred and fear. In one
unguarded instant Milan let it out. I and the rest of the world will
not make Serbs live under Muslim rule ...ONCE AGAIN! Milan and the 
Serbian "irregulars" systematically targeting Bosnian-Herzegovinian
civilians are not fighting Bosnian Muslims. They're fighting the 
Ottoman Empire which had the audacity to defeat the Serbs in the 
12th(?) century. Now it all makes sense. I can rest easier now
knowing that tens of thousands of Bosnian-Herzegovinian civilians
are being shelled and driven from their homes because 7 centuries
ago they adopted the religion of a now defunct group (those Ottomans)
who had the unmitigated gall to humiliate Serbs. That I can accept.
I can rest now.





Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.turkish,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe
From: sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: UPI about detention camps
Date: 16 Aug 92 14:58:42 GMT
Organization: Enea Data AB

Once upon time Josip Loncaric (josip@src.umd.edu) said:
>Being blamed does not mean you are guilty.  In fact, Croats and Bosnian
>Muslims have all along been striving to make their detention policy follow
>the applicable conventions.  To ensure this, the ICRC has been conducting
>inspections, and recently reported that no major abuses were found.

But since then ICRC has published a report with fierce critique
against all sides. 12 camps on all sides had been expected, and
in all serious violation of the Geneva convention were reported.
(Which is not maybe not to surprising. I seem to recall being
mentioned that the Geneva convention was nothing never taught to
the conscripts in the Yugoslavian army. How could you then expect 
irregulars to know what is and even more follow it?)

-- 
Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - sommar@enea.se
Life is wonderful when the wonderlife is full
Xref: sparky soc.culture.yugoslavia:8173 soc.culture.greek:7805 soc.culture.europe:7559 eunet.politics:1098 soc.culture.bulgaria:1184
From: blazic@ecf.toronto.edu (BLAZIC Joseph R)
Subject: Can anyone tell me
Organization: University of Toronto, Engineering Computing Facility
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1992 22:20:02 GMT

Who is Alex Gilas (sp?)?  Apparently he was born in Belgrad and has written
a book about the stife in ex-Yugoslavia.

Joe Blazic
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis )
Subject: Re: Taiwan/China
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 17:16:24 GMT

macrakis@osf.org (Stavros Macrakis) writes:

>In the discussion on the name `Macedonia', I said:

>   The former government of Taiwan explicitly claimed to be the
>   legitimate government of all of China.

>In article <Bt57HL.BoC@news.cso.uiuc.edu> ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis ) writes:

>   According to many Taiwanize friends of mine, Macrakis's comment is
>   incorrect....

>Sorry, your Taiwanese friends are incorrect.  Until a few years ago,
>the `Republic of China' (which controls Taiwan) and the `People's
>Republic of China' (which controls the rest of China) each claimed to
>be the single legitimate government of all of China, including the
>island of Taiwan.  In fact, there were even `representatives' of the
>mainland provinces in the Taiwanese parliament.

 Nope, I asked other guys and agreed on same things. Yet, the analogy
 is very clear: they feel they are Chinese, but when you ask them they
 say they are from Taiwan.  Why something similar cannot happen with
 Skopjia?

>	-s

-- 
---> Panos Tamamidis
     University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
From: llugomir@napier.uwaterloo.ca (Lily Lugomirski)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: The Toronto Star: Bosnia Muslims Accused of Killing Their Own
Date: 23 Aug 92 03:16:13 GMT
Organization: University of Waterloo


The Toronto Star, August 22, 1992

Bosnia Muslims Accused of Killing Their Own
by Leonard Doyle

(Reproduced without permission.)

UNITED NATIONS - Some of the worst recent killings in Sarajevo, including
the massacre of at least 16 people in a bread queue, were the work of the
city's Muslim defenders, not Serb besiegers, U.N. officials and
seniour Western military officers said.

   They said the killings are being used as a propaganda ploy to win world
sympathy and trigger military intervention.

   The view has been expressed in confidential report circulating
at U.N. headquarters in New York, and in classified briefings  to U.S.
policymakers in Washington.

   All suggest the Sarajevo's defenders, mainly Muslims but including
Croats and a number of Serb residents, staged several attacks on their own
people in the hope of dramatizing the city's plight in the face of the
insuperable Serbian odds.

   They stress, however, that these attacks, though bloody, were a tiny minority
among regular city bombardments by Serbian forces.

   The reports recite a litany of gruesome events, from the bombing of a bread
queue on May 27 which killed at least 16 people, to the Aug. 4 explosion at
a cemetery while two orphans were being buried, and a "choreographed" mortar
salvo 30 seconds after British Foreign Secretary Douglas Hurd entered a
building for a meeting with the Bosnian President, Alija Izetbegovic, on
July 17.

   The mortar attack killed or wounded 10 bystanders.  A Bosnian guard of
honor for Hurd's security had already taken cover.

   U.N. officials believe the bullet that killed U.S. TV producer David Kaplan
near Sarajevo airport on Aug. 13 was unlikely to have been fired by a sniper
from distant Serbian positions.

   "That would have been impossible," one U.N. military officer said.
"That shot came in horizontal to the ground.  Somebody was down at ground
level."

   U.N. officials also say a Ukranian soldier, shot in the head and heart at
Sarajevo's Marshal Tito barracks on Thursday, was killed by "small arms
fire" - by implication the Bosnians.  That was confirmed yesterday by U.N.
military sources in Sarajevo.

   The officials were anxious to point out that they were not trying
to exonerate the Serbian side that has been besieging Sarajevo for months,
killing unkown number of Mulsim, Croat and Serb residents, as well as
carrying out "ethnic cleansing" - enforced population shifts - around the
city and elsewhere in Bosnia.

   But they expressed fears that the suspected self-inflicted attacks my not
augur well for U.N. forces who have to serve there.



***********************************************************************
llugomir@cayley.uwaterloo.ca           | "You know, I don't think math 
llugomir@descartes.uwaterloo.ca        |  is a science, I think it's a 
llugomir@napier.uwaterloo.ca           |  religion" -- Calvin 
************************************************************************
From: pnmideast@igc.apc.org
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Date: 18 Aug 92 23:31 PDT
Subject: Croatian War Relief Needs
Nf-ID: #N:cdp:1475300365:000:1840
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!pnmideast    Aug 18 23:31:00 1992


From: <pnmideast>
Subject: Croatian War Relief Needs

/* Written  6:40 pm  Aug 18, 1992 by gn:jsax in cdp:yugo.antiwar */
/* ---------- "Croatian War Relief Needs" ---------- */
Cc: igc!pnmideast
Subject: Croatian War Relief Needs

TWO CONCRETE APPEALS FOR UNUSUAL 
HUMANITARIAN HELP FOR BOSNA AND CROATIA


I. FOOD FOR CHILDREN IN SARAJEVO

We told with the physician from Sarajevo, who works in UNICEF and was 
one day in Zagreb. He said that the important help for Bosna in this 
moment can be some more quality foods, specially for children. People 
usually eat only bred, pastry, potato etc. They need foods like:

	% powdered milk
	% powdered eggs
	% multivitamin pills

You can to send this in Zagreb, on address of CENTER FOR PEACE, 
NONVIOLENCE AND HUMAN RIGHTS, with designation "For children in 
Bosnia". Also, if you are coming to Zagreb, you can bring something like a 
box of multivitamin pills.  With UNICEF and UNHCR offices in Zagreb and 
planes for Sarajevo every day, it is no problem to send these packages to 
Bosnia. This kind of moral support for people in Sarajevo, in the form of 
gifts from ordinary people from abroad and especially from Croatia, will 
be much appreciated. 

II. WINDOW-PANES FOR OSIJEK

Croatian town Osijek, with more then 100.000 inhabitants, was on the 
front-lines for nine mouths. It was continuously shelled with mortars, 
cannons and rockets. Many houses are damaged. They are often usable, but 
the big problem in next few months are the broken windows. Most of the 
windows are covered only with transparent plastic, which will not keep 
out the cold during the autumn and winter months.  About 210.000 m2 of 
window-pane are needed.

We appeal to you to collect this sort of help for Osijek. Contact us at the 
CENTER FOR PEACE, NONVIOLENCE AND HUMAN RIGHTS in Zagreb for 
details.




Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.greek
From: jdd1@cec1.wustl.edu (James Dimos Dimarogonas)
Subject: Re: Independent Slavo-Macedonia
Organization: Washington University, St. Louis Mo.
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 23:07:16 GMT

In article <MACRAKIS.92Aug19175839@next4.osf.org> macrakis@osf.org (Stavros Macrakis) writes:
>In article <1992Aug19.192929.27974@wuecl.wustl.edu> jdd1@cec1.wustl.edu (James Dimos Dimarogonas) writes:
>
>
>   ...As for their right to look after citizents of theirs abroad,
>   that is of course an undeniable right.
>
>They presumably also have the right to communicate with those they
>perceive as fellow Macedonians, although they have no legal
>relationship with them, just as Greek Consulates interact with ethnic
>Greeks who have never had Greek nationality (e.g. ethnic Greeks from
>Egypt, Turkey, etc.).
>
I stand corrected!  When I said citizents, I meant ethnic origin. 
When they become an independent country (their status now is a little
tricky, but "macedonia" or not they are a country in the making)
I don't believe that anyone in Greece will deny them the right to
interact with anyone that claims himself to be of their ethnic origin,
whatever that is.  My problem is when they speak for people that have
not made any such claim. 

As to whethere I would be worried by the existence of a slavic minority
that's absurd.  The goverement of Skopje claims that there are 150.000
"macedonians" in Greece.  For the sake of argument, lets assume that
it is true.  That represent's 1.5% of the greek population, or 6%
of the Greek Macedonia population. So the rest of Greek Macedonia
is 94%.  Even if you assume that there are another 4% gupsies and
vlachs (which is too high, but just for the sake of argument), it still
leaves 90% greeks!!!  Show me countries that have border provinces
with such an homogeneous population!!

Regards

James Dimarogonas 
Xref: sparky soc.culture.yugoslavia:7843 soc.culture.greek:7388 soc.culture.europe:7164 eunet.politics:1038 soc.culture.australian:3875
From: varnavas@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (varnavas constantine)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,eunet.politics,soc.culture.australian
Subject: Re: EDUCATION SPECIAL: MAP OF THE WORLD
Date: 12 Aug 92 16:53:16 GMT
Article-I.D.: news.Bsvqwu.Av2
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana

sk@groo.sunbim.be (Sasa Konecni) writes:

>	EDUCATION SPECIAL: MAP OF THE WORLD
>Reply-To: sk@sunbim.be ()
>Organization: BIM Everberg Belgium
>Date: Wed, 12 Aug 92 07:19:23 GMT
>Lines: 46

>	For the past fortnight, billions of television viewers around the
>world have watched a world record performance in Barcelona.
>	More nations than ever before have been competing at the 1992 Olympic
>Games under a bewildering array of national flags.
>	Today the Sunday Mail brings you an up-to-the-minute color map of the
>world, reflecting the political upheaval of borders and alliances not seen 
>since the carve-up of Europe at the end of the World War II.
>	
>	........

>	FORMER SOVIET UNION: Armenia; Azerbaijan; Byelarus; Estonia;
>Georgia; Kazakhstan; Kirghizstan; Latvia; Lithuania; Moldova; Nackhichevan;
>Russian Federation; Tadzhikistan; Turkmenistan; Ukraine & Uzbekistan.

>	EUROPE:
>	1) Albania; 2) Austria; 3) Belgium; 4) Bosnia/Herzegovina;
>	5) Bulgaria; 6) Croatia; 7) Cyprus; 8) Czech Republic; 9) France;
>	10) Germany; 11) United Kingdom; 12) Greece; 13) Hungary;
>	14) Italy; 15) Ireland; 16) Luxembourg; 17) Malta;
>	18) Macedonia; 19) Netherlands; 20) Montenegro; 21) Poland;
>	22) Portugal; 23) Romania; 24) Serbia; 25) Slovakia;
>	26) Slovenia; 27) Spain; 28) Switzerland.

>Contribution of Cvetan and Sonja

Macedonia did not participate in the Olympic games simply because it is not
recognized as an independent state.  So the columnist does not have
his/her facts straight by including Macedonia in the participating states.
Since I assume you know this fact, why do you post this information which you
know is false?
-- 
Constantinos Varnavas
University of Illinois
From: U45301@uicvm.uic.edu (Mary Jacobs)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: GORE TEXT: BOSNIA CAMPS
Date: 19 Aug 92 06:18:54 GMT
Article-I.D.: uicvm.92232.011854U45301
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago

CLINTON/GORE TEXT NOW POSTED ON ALT.POLITICS.CLINTON

SEND COMMENTS AND QUESTIONS REGARDING THIS INFORMATION TO THE
CLINTON/GORE CAMPAIGN AT 75300.3115@COMPUSERVE.COM
(This information is posted for public education purposes.  It does
not necessarily represent the views of The University.)
========================================================================
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
AUGUST 4, 1992


          Statement by Sen. Al Gore on Bosnia Camps

     Reports of atrocities in the Bosnian war have become a daily
fare of increasingly more disturbing proportions.  Word that
Serbian forces are operating secret detention camps where
helpless
and innocent people are kept under barbaric conditions, and where
they are subjected to torture and death at the whim of their
captors, must deepen our anger, our disgust, and our resolve to
take action to strop what is taking place.

     The full attention and authority of the world community must
be brought to bear.  Our government should take the lead to call
for a special session of the UN Security Council.  We should
propose that the Council issue an immediate demand that
international observers gain access to any place where prisoners
are held, that civilians be released to UN custody, and that any
military prisoners must be held under condition s defined by
international law.  That demand should be backed by a readiness
to take collective action, including the use of force.  The United
States should make clear that it is prepared to lend appropriate
support to any such action.  These atrocities are crimes under
international law, and steps should be taken at once to document
them, and to identify those who must ultimately be brought to
justice.

     What is happening in Bosnia to innocent people who are being
brutalized transcends our political differences here at home.
Governor Clinton and I will support urgent and appropriate action
by the Administration.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: ospahic@ddsw1.mcs.com (Olga Spahic)
Subject: Re: Radu's Doubts
Organization: ddsw1.MCS.COM Contributor, Chicago, IL
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 03:54:47 GMT
X-Disclaimer:  Material posted in this article is the sole responsibility of
                the poster and does not represent MCSNet or the system owners.

In article <1992Aug14.161652.8064@cmcl2.nyu.edu> nyu writes:
>
>Radu, the anti-semitism of Trudjman has never really been questioned
>(though I do have doubts about any translation that Milan Stojanovic
>presents)....

To alleviate some of your doubts, Milan is quoting from an official
translation of Mr. Tudjman's book. I am sure that you would also be able to
obtain your own copy of this translation, if you so desired... And if that
one is not good enough, then I suggest that you learn the language...
and then translate it yourself.

Further comment... there is no reason for Milan to misquote Mr. Tudjman...
Mr. Tudjman is not ashamed of his views... why else would he write a book
expressing them?



Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: tedwards@src.umd.edu (Thomas Grant Edwards)
Subject: Re: Serbian threats
Organization: Systems Research Center, Maryversity of Uniland, College Park
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 21:03:36 GMT

In article <1992Aug8.192309.22910@wuecl.wustl.edu> victor@jezebel.wustl.edu (Victor Wickerhauser) writes:
>From ClariNet (8-Aug-92) we have the following:
>  The self-proclaimed government of
>  the Serbian ``state'' in Bosnia warned that foreign military
>  intervention in the war-wracked republic could prompt Serbian attacks on
>  European targets... including nuclear power plants.

This self-proclaimed government must be stupid if they believe that
they can attack European targets outside of former Yugoslavia, and
remain non-vaporized.

I hope the people of the former USSR watch the stupidity of the ethnic
hatred based war in Yugoslavia, and learn what not to do from it!

-Tom



Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,eunet.politics,soc.culture.australian
From: hf@informatik.uni-kl.de (Harald Fuchs)
Subject: Re: Serbian Agression
Organization: Kaiserslautern University, Germany
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 14:46:53 GMT

> Let the Serbian people remember the lessons of Dresden.

Many people consider the bombing of Dresden as an allied war crime.
I hope you don't want to use the same methods as the Serbians in order
to teach them civilization.
--

Harald Fuchs <hf@informatik.uni-kl.de>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia