From: nelson_p@apollo.hp.com (Peter Nelson)
Subject: Re: Fundamental dilemma for welfare
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 13:54:52 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Corporation, Chelmsford, MA

In article <dliebman.1oxy@terapin.com> dliebman@terapin.com (David Liebman) writes:
>In article <BvB6EL.KF4@apollo.hp.com>, nelson_p@apollo.hp.com (Peter Nelson)
>writes:
>>
>>  While it is certainly the case that we need to reform and improve
>>  education, it is not at all obvious to me that issues like "state
>>  versus private" or "expenditures per pupil" or "student:teacher
>>  ratio" are significantly relevant.    Rather, I would look at
>>  issues like class discipline, academic standards, homework, 
>>  attention span, days of school per year, and similar issues.
>
>class discipline and attention span are directly related to class size.

  This is EXACTLY what I was complaining about when I commented that
  Usenet posters like to discuss these issues as though they're all
  theoretical and there's no empirical data!   If Liebman's comments
  were true then Japan and South Korea, which have much larger average
  class sizes than the US would have more discipline problems.  In fact
  they have fewer.  
                 

>perhaps you have a child, or have associated with the child of an
>acquaintance?  you would likely have found that, with yourself and
>one or two children, you could maintain an appropriate level of order
>and garner a reasonable amount of attention.

  I have no children but I have 7 siblings and 2 siblings-in-law so
  I have lots of nieces and nephews, as well as many friends who have 
  children.  There is a great deal of variation in how well-behaved
  the kids are.   Dinner behavior is a good metric: some children
  sit quietly and converse politely at dinner, finish what's on
  their plate and ask to be excused when they're done.  Others get
  up and down, run around, turn on the TV, etc.   

  It is very clear to my wife and I who have observed and discussed
  this topic at great length, that those families with the latter
  sort of children *tolerate* it; they either don't try to put a
  stop to it or only do so half-heartedly.  On the other hand we
  haven't entirely rejected the possibility that they had earlier
  tried harder to do so, and were/are defeated.   Those families
  with well-behaved children have very clear, unwavering expectations
  for their childrens' behavior. 


>and, peter, to forestall any further gratuitous insults, and to
>restore your faith in the enlightenment of usenet participants,
>i should tell you that i've spent a fair bit of time studying
>early-childhood psychology and education, in university, as an
>occasional volunteer and observer in classrooms and day-care
>centers, and through the daily reports of my lover, who is a
>teacher, which you are not.

  Maybe, but psychology, with an emphasis on developmental psych. 
  was my undergraduate major and I also did volunteer and observer
  work in classrooms, and my wife was a third-grade teacher for
  7 years.   


  Anyway, you still haven't made your case that class-size is
  a major determining factor of academic achievment or discipline.
  Or maybe I'm misunderstanding your thesis:  perhaps you are
  suggesting that American children are uniquely bad or delinquent
  and NEED smaller class sizes and more individual attention to
  compensate for this.  But if this is the case then I would
  suggest that rather than using the schools to correct the flaws
  in the culture, US parents should shape up. 

  The bottom line is still the empirical one: other countries have 
  bigger classes, less funding, and state schools, and still pro-
  duce better educated, better disciplined chidren than the US.



---peter