From: c23st@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com (Spiros Triantafyllopoulos)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: Equal PPP means Equal Living Standards, except for ....
Date: 12 Apr 92 13:27:13 GMT
Article-I.D.: kocrsv01.199204121327.AA21228

>  >Standard Mutlu answer. The issue remains, Hasan. What does the stock
>  >market of Greece have to do with a discussion about the Kurds? Is it
>  >that hard to explain?
>  
>  [...] Therefore, it would be more suitable to make a comparison
>  between Turkiye and, say, Greece, who share the same democratic values,
>  rather than the Southeast Asian countries, to highlight what Turkiye
>  accomplished within a short span of time. Fair enough, 'Spiros?'

Fair enough. Greece is not in Asia, has a different economy
than Turkiye, does not share Turkiye's 'democratic' values, etc. 

>  >If you want to be technical, what
>  >is your complaint? Your note [i.e. the original to which I responded]
>  >was not a complaint against anyone. Therefore to what, and when,
>  >did you complain?
>  
>  Why not quote the original article posted on the subject, then?

han> Here we go again. My complaint, and such it was, was directed at
han> your habit of editing my article in such a way as to leave you
han> with straw man arguments to knock down. If your arguments are
han> really sound and valid, then they can stand to be looked at
han> in the light of the complete statement to which you are
han> replying. Don't you think?

reading the text quoted han>, one would get the idea that 'Spiros' is a
habitual out of context paraphrasing S.O.B. The facts remain that this was
my first ever serious attempt at dialog with you in this forum, EVER.
Your statements imply that I have done this in the past to you on a more
or less constant way ("han>, your habit of editing my article in such a
way as to leave you han> with straw man arguments to knock down"), while
the truth is that this is the first time I have ever responded to one of
your messages. Fair enough, 'habitual victim' ???

>  >> 1. Average annual growth rate of GNP per capita: 9.6%
>  
>  >Impressive. From what base, i.e. what is the GNP per capita? My figures
>  >said $1300 in 1987, so in three years (1990) it's around $1700.
>  
>  Nope. One should utilize the 'average output per person in dollars adjusted
>  to PPP.'

Let me see if i understand this correctly. Is average output per person
in dollars adjusted to PPP something meaning that a Greek and a Turk have
the same purchasing power within their respective economies and countries?

If this is how I read it, could you explain the difference in things like
car registrations, TV ownership, telephones, airline miles travelled,
number of airports, etc that, presumably, since they are purchased with
salaries which adjust to be the same, should be similar for each country.
Please do not quote Prof. Unknown from Faraway State University, just a
SIMPLE answer to the following simple statement:

	if (ppp_Greece == ppp_Turkiye) {
		num_phones_per_capita(Gr) == num_phones_per_capita(Tu);
		num_cars_per_capita(Gr) == num_cars_per_capita(Tu);
    		num_doctors_per_capita(Gr) == num_doctors_per_capita(Tu);
		average_energy_per_capita(Gr) == average_energy_per_cap(Tu);
		average_age(Gr) = average_age(Tu);
		literacy_rate(Gr) = literacy_rate(Tu)
	}		

Is the statement above accurate or not? But I think I know the answer...

>  >For Greece,
>  >the 87 figure is $4350, for 1990 it is $6900, translating to a 16% a
>  >year growth rate.
>  
>  This one was pretty miserable. Greece has never witnessed the speedy
>  population growth, since its population remained almost the same as
>  it was in the 1960s. Indeed, the population of Greece increased by one
>  million only over the last three decades while Turkiye's population has
>  doubled in the same period. You have deserved to have a cup of Turkish
>  coffee.

If I read this correctly, Turkiye's per capita figures suffer because of a
population explosion over the last 30 years. That means that your country,
despite its industrialization, tremendous economic growth rate, planning,
etc has not been able to keep up with demand in providing education,
health care, or even telephones.

Let me rephrase that. Greece & Turkiye are compared to two families just
starting out, with the same incomes (PPP :-). Family number 1 makes one
child (and maybe not even that) and family number 2 makes 6, while #2's
income grows by a bit more than #1's income. (or in case of PPP, is same)

Would you care to guess which family will succeed at the end? No industrial
society I am aware of can get away with 3.4% population growth rates. It
is simply not possible. If that was not a problem, why would countries like
China or India promote (with different means) population control methods? 

I can not imagine what the population growth rate would be if health care
was more available, infant mortality was reduced and life spans improved.

>  One should be proud of Turkiye's competitive position in ceramics,
>  processed food, tourism, textiles, unprocessed food/fruit, contracting,
>  livestock, leather products, glass, rubber, ship building, petrochemicals,
>  cement, iron and steel. Fair enough?

If the average citizen can't afford them or because of the aphrodisiac
qualities of Turkish food the population has exploded and demand outruns
supply by a few orders of magnitude what good does it do to the average
Turk? That he has a job making these products for export at $0.19/hour?

I just got ahold of a copy of detailed world auto production data by
factory, country, and model.  There are many car/tractor factories in
Turkiye, 15 or so. Yet car output was something like 100,000 cars a year.
For all models. That translates to maybe 10,000 cars a year from a single
plant. Basic cars i.e. Otosan Taunus 1600 GL, 1960's vintage.  me on this.
Most car factories have been around for 5 years if not more, and most cars
are made from scratch Can you, a knowledgeable reader and writer of world
class economics (tm), explain the logic of running a car factory (that's
body, trim, engines, trannies, tires, batteries, etc) for such low
volumes? It can probably be sustained by either a) flexible manufacturing
(not likely) b) less demand, hence huge government subsidies, or c)
extremely low tech and extremely low wages, China style.  At the end
unless you pay prison wages it is cheaper to import than to make for such
low volumes. And don't defend it by saying it is still the beginning.  
Most cars made in Turkiye are older than I am. 

>  deficit, it is highly probable that Greece will see itself constrained
>  to ask creditor countries to reschedule its foreign debts which
>  doubled during the tenure of 'Papandreou.'

Gee, he now quotes names of real persons. I can't argue with that 
unfortunately. How come you did not quote Paparabilek's (sp?) name earlier?

>  >So Turkiye has lots of young people. What do you do with the old ones?
>  
>  They are witnessing and enjoying a real miracle.

Or they are not living long enough due to lack of medical care
(see average life spans of Gr/Tu, relate with average health care stats).

>  But, Turkiye, notwithstanding the high population growth, has
>  been able to achieve a sustained growth rate not less than 6
>  percent over the last decade. The speedy population growth
>  may provide some small scale advantages as well.

More China-style labor? Can you match China's $0.19/day wages?

>  >> 11. Average annual growth rate of urban population: 3.4%
>  
>  >Nothing to be proud of.
>  
>  I am forced to disagree.

No developed country has population growth rates that come close to 3.4%.
What will you do with all the Young Turks?  Will you need 'vital space'?

>  >> 12. Urban population as a share of total population: 47%
>  
>  >Hmmm. Same as in Greece. Nothing to be proud of.
>  
>  Your opinion; hardly fact.

The slums of Mexico City, Bombay, New Delhi, Instambul, or Cairo are 
a hard 'fact' that all Urban Newcomers encounter upon arrival.

>  >No figures provided for competing country. I provided figures for all
>  >my data for both sides. Why did you ignore the fact that Turkiye,
>  >being 6 times the size of Greece, has LESS private and commercial
>  >vehicles? or passenger miles? or airports? ports? commercial flights?
>  
>  It is so nonsensical. The sectors, at which Turkiye is aiming, are as
>  follows: Processed food, electrical machines, optical measuring
>  devices, plastic materials, packaging and pressing, wood products
>  and paper, production of electronic inputs, development of the
>  financial sector, production of design, ship building and disassembly.
>  Have you ever heard of the 'Southeast Anatolia Project?'

You have not answered the question. Quite normal for you. How many
'optical measuring devices' (tape measures :-)??) for a hospital bed?

>  >> 15. Life expectancy at birth: 64 years
>  
>  >Greece's is 75. Again, figures  for things like availability of medical
>  >care to all citizens (or visitors for that matter), hospital beds,
>  >doctors, etc. conveniently ignored.
>  
>  You have been arguing with yourself; the issue was to become competitive
>  in world markets.

At the expense of quality / duration of living? Didn't they try that in
China.... And you still have not explained how a 'developed' country has
such low figures for life expectancy, health care availability..

>  >Number of TV's, VCR's, phones, airline passenger miles, ..... ???????
>  
>  Today, there are more than one million color TV units in the country.

There's more than that in Greece, at 6 times less size. 

>  More than one million sets are exported yearly, all of them being
>  produced locally. This is the best evidence of what Turkiye has achieved
>  in the field of telecommunications.

Assembling TV's? Or do you make the entire TV (design, chips & tube)??

> I therefore venture to say that Turkiye
>  is ahead of Greece as far as the television networks and services
>  are concerned. And all these foregoing achievements have materialized
>  despite a high population growth.

Do you have (or plan to) free TV? Radio? Cable TV? CNN? MTV? Satellite TV? 

>  Why not take several classes in 'International Economics?' But, please
>  not in USC or Berkeley.
>  
>  >Now, for the last time, would you comment on this:
>  >GNP:Greece: $6900Turkey: $1700[1990].
>  
>  You don't get it - do you? It is 'meaningless.'

About as meaningless as numbers of TV's, phones, doctors, hospital
beds, literacy rates, infant mortality, teachers, vehicles, etc per capita.

>  Do not take life seriously; you will never get out of it alive.

Do not take soc-culture-* news seriously. You will never get laid. 

>  Hasan B-) Mutlu 		[plus obligatory road kill signature]
Xref: sparky soc.culture.greek:3260 soc.culture.europe:3673