From: ninjam@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Marty)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Jeet Kune Do
Date: 30 Aug 92 05:56:52 GMT
Organization: University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
Originator: ninjam@csd4.csd.uwm.edu

Hi all.  I was going to stay out of the convo on this because my
postings on JKD usually mean a whole night's worth of writing. :)
But I saw some things being mentioned that I felt should
be addressed so people aren't mislead.


aalmague@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Alejandro E Almaguer) says:
Subject: Re: Brandon Lee and Company....



>Speed is not the main emphasis of JKD rather simplicity.  Quoting "The Tao of
>Jeet Kune Do," :
>
>         The art of Jeet Kune Do is to simplify.  Jeet Kune Do does not
>         beat around the bush.  It does not take winding detours.  It
>         follows a straight line to the objective.  **Simplicity is the
>         shortest distance between two points**. 

While your point is true, simplicity (or conversation of movement as it
is sometimes refered to) is only one aspect of it.  Simplicity is
essential in JKD, but is not the overall "emphasis".  Simplicity
(conservation of movement), centerline theory, speed, etc., are
all tools that lead you to the expression of JKD which is the
ultimate goal.  They work hand in hand.  One does not dwell on
an aspect individually to "describe" or express their JKD
otherwise they become bogged down in as much a hinderance
as those that do not acknowlege that aspect to begin with.

Also, I noticed you took certain liberties with your quote.  Those
are actually from two differen't paragraphs on page 12.  In doing
so you have changed their meaning and have misslead people on here.
The original paragraphs follow below:

"Jeet Kune Do does not beat around the bush.  It does not take winding
detours.  It follows a straight line to the objective.  Simplicity
is the shortest distance between two points."

Again, we see here that the intent was to describe one aspect of
JKD.  It simply says that a JKD person will always go for the
simplist route when doing a technique.  Instead of doing a
triple tornado kick trying to confuse the opponent and land
one of the kicks, a JKD person might fake to draw protection
away from the area and then follow through with a simple
kick to the area they want to hit.

The second paragraph that was melded together in the original post
is the following:

"The art of Jeet Kune Do is simply to simplify.  It is being oneself;
it is reality in it's "isness."  Thus, isness is the meaning -- having
freedom in it's primary sense, not limited by attachments, confinements,
partialization, complexities."

This paragraph goes far above that of "technique" in saying that
Jeet Kune Do strives to conform to you, to make you and likewise
the art, a full expression of yourself.  In doing so, you are not
confined into doing things that would limit your potential growth
or bog you down with thoughts that are unnecissary to you as
an individual.  Hence "you" do not become a product of the
art, the "art" becomes a tool to express "yourself".

While I and many of the other people on here appreciate you taking
the time to answer the question asked on here, please do not 
alter information from a source to fit your needs.  Many times
it will not preserve the meaning of the original source and
many other times misslead other people as can be seen above.

If you look thru the Tao, you can find about 10-20 other paragraphs and
phrases that start with "Jeet Kune Do is.." or "The art of Jeet Kune
Do is...".  There is a good reason for this.  First off, is that
each individual description attempts to describe what JKD strives for.
Nowhere in the book is there one catch all phrase to describe JKD.
If there were, then you wouldn't need the book in the first place.

Second, you have to realize that this book is NOT a bible of JKD.
Bruce had started to write a book to describe JKD but never finished
it.  Upon his death, his friends and family thought it would be
a waste to loose all this valuable info.  So they took what little
he had of the book, and added his mounds of reference material and
personal notes to it.  As is stated in this excerpt from the intro
by Linda Lee:

"Bruce had decided to finish the book in 1971 but his film work kept
him from completing it.  He also vacillated about the advisibility of
publishing his work because he felt it might be used for the wrong
purposes.  He did not intend it to be a "how-to" book or a "learn
kung fu in 10 easy lessons" book.  He intended it as a record of
one man's way of thinking and as a guide, not a set of instructions.
If you can read it in this light, there is much to be aware of on these
pages.  And, you probably will have many of questions, the answers
to which you must seek within yourself.  When you have finished
this book, you will know Bruce Lee better, but hopefully you will
also know yourself better."

also most importantly:

"Now, open you mind and read, understand, and experience, and when you've
reached that point, discard this book.  The pages are best used for 
cleaning up a mess -- as you will see".

So as you can see, the book was a collection of his thoughts.  BUT,
they are only his thoughts he happened to put on pen.  That is
why much is incomplete, or does not follow in a smooth flowing order.
This is also why Linda said what she did above about seeking your
own answers to questions raised from the book. 
Some of it was copied right out of his personal reference notes,
so it may have it's own personal context.  In fact, on some of
the pages they have a picture of the original notebook paper it
was taken off of, so that you can see where it came from.
And because of the fact that much is from his notes, you are
not given a full explination of certain notes or pages. 
For example on some pages bruce lists just about every possibility
of hiting and kicking, along with diagrams of all angles of
possibilites of movements with the limbs.  One must take this
for what it was for Bruce.  Reference material.  Just because
he had all these possibilites down does not mean he advocated
using all of them.  In fact there are many put down that
he did not.
On other pages there are copies of his notes with various striking
points drawn out, or differen't strategies he was working out on
paper.  Some of which grew later on, or others that he totally
changed his reasoning on. This aspect is not presented in here.
And on other pages there are even direct copies of paragraphs or
diagrams out of books by Edwin L. Haislet, Julio Martinez Castello,
Hugo and James Castello and Roger Crosnier, that Bruce had
copied into his own notes while working on his own ideas.

Because of all this, the book is rather much like a museum.  It gives
you a taste of the person.  The tools he used, the thoughts he
had, and the planning and direction that all went into what he
was and where he was going.  

To treat it as a "bible" or as a definitive description of JKD
rather than what it is..........a "source" and "reference" of knowlege
.....a book that gives you a flavor of what JKD was about and gives
you many of the ideas involved with it........to look at it as
all cut and dry fact would be to become part of the "Bruce Lee
Cult".  Those group of people that follow on every word he says
and every move he did as a definition of what should be done.


If one was to try and get a full scope on JKD from a reference
standpoint, I would also advise picking up the other 4 books
that go in the series and that are meant to compliment the Tao.
It's a series of 4 books that are entitled "Bruce Lee's Fighting
Method".
The Tao can be seen of as the theory and philosophy behind what
Bruce did, and the 4 BLFM books can be seen as his physical
representation of that philosophy and theory.  Again, the
keyword here is HIS.  Certain moves, etc. in the BLFM are
there purely as examples as they only worked for
him because of certain variables that part of him as an
indvidual.


>Bruce felt tha
>t one should simply hit one's opponent.  No fancy stuff.

Actually, Bruce felt that one should be direct in dealing with
the matter at hand and expressing oneself.  Not to beat around
the bush.  If the situation called for getting out and
running away, then do it and do not worry about your ego
or not proving yourself.  If a punch to the opponents
body would stop him from completing a kick he had initiated,
rather than blocking it and then going on witht he confrontation,
then do it.  All these represent differen't levels of "simplicity"
and the concept goes far beyond just the technical level that
you seem to suggest.  The matter at hand decides what is direct
and what is not.  Not the art itself.

>There's much more to it than that, however.  You should read his book
>The Tao of Jeet Kune Do.  It gets very philosophical in regards to some things
>and is at times hard to understand, but no MA should go without reading it.

Definitely true, but again, see the earlier discussion in this posting.
Also, philosophy is hard to understand unless it is explained.  Many
of Bruce's students had the philosophy explained to them.  Bruce
was against the "mystical" aspect of Martial Arts, and the "Well, I'll
explain it to you when your ready (which is always 7 years later)" thing.
But to the outside world, he was very adamant at them not knowing
everything about JKD.  This is part of the reason he asked his students
not to spread JKD and teach it to a wide base.
Getting back to the philosophy issue, much of the philosophy is actually
very simple in nature.  But without the luxury of someone to explain
it, it becomes a barrier to those seeking to understand it with out
working towards it and discovering it yourself.  This also serves the
purpose of what Bruce had asked of his students, but has also become
the downfall of JKD in the modern world.

>As far as SPEED, Bruce was like lightning.  Yet, he said speed without proper
>timing is useless.

And structure, and coordination, and purpose, and.....

There's alot more to it than just timing.  All of the above and much
more go hand in hand with speed.  Bruce also stated that.

>Since he had both timing and speed, the faster his
>punch the greater the force he inflicted on his opponents. 

He also had the proper structure in which to issue the speed, the
proper coordination in which to direct it, etc.
Timing serves as a compliment to coordination and purpose. By 
definition, Timing does not make a punch more powerfull.
What Bruce was talking about was in a combat situation.  You can
have all the power in the world, but if you are not able to
time it to land that powerfull and fast hit, it means nothing.


>More simply put
>JKD works best at higher speeds.

No Way.

Tell me, if some of the philosophy behind JKD is to use what works
best for you, and your some 80 year old guy walking down the street,
how is trying to use speed an expression of this?

JKD is for anyone, whether they are 10 years old or 90, male or
female.  Why?  Because it is an expression of you the individual.
There is no set kata that you use, and that you must do this way
or that.  There are no attributes that you "must" have in order
to do it.
In fact, Bruce used to say that himself.  If you can dig up
any videotapes of his appearances on Hong Kong talk shows,
you'll see him mention this.  He would also bring along
Brandon to demonstrate this.  Here's an excerpt from an interview 
with Brandon:

            When Brandon Lee was 5 years old, his father would take him
          along to talk shows and let him break a few boards with his
	  bare fist.
	    "We used to have a little routine we'd do," Lee now recalls,
          22 years later.  "I'd stand next to him holding his hand,
	  and my dad would be going on about how it didn't matter
	  how large you were to learn the matial arts."
	    "'Size is not a determining factor in one's ability as a 
          martial artist,' he would say.  At which point I'd get him
	  in a wrist lock and bring him down to the ground."



>The simplicity in the techniques facilitates
>this.

No way.  What many of the principles facilitate, are to give people
an edge, expand them to their potential, and bring them out of a
confrontation a total winner.  Speed can be applied to this,
but is thought of as an individual advantage.  Not a
neccessity and not something that is implied.

And which techniques are you talking about?  You see, that's a big
problem with many of the people today, including in JKD.  There
are no "set techniques".  Many people seem to take what Bruce
did as the law.  The curriculum he used to teach, as the law.
They've taken everything and turned much of it into a set style.
To be in JKD, you must do this type of kick, punch like this, move
like this.  Many of them winding up looking like little Bruce Lee
clones, only in reality they are a mere shadow of the truth.
While it is true in fact, that many of the techniques represented
are the best way of expressing the desired goals in JKD for 
everyone, the techniques themselves are not a neccessity.
And many times there is a better way of doing something structure
wise.  Just because Bruce promoted a certain way of doing something
and did it this way in the curriculum, does not mean that is where
the buck stops.  Even Bruce's personal expression of the theories
(his physical techniques) were constantly changing.  By standardizing
in the way they have, many of todays JKD people have stagnatized
this growth.

Because of all this, JKD has itself become part of the very same
classical mess that the originator seeked to seperate himself from.

>>	I have a video catalog that avertises JKD tapes by some guy named
>>Jerry Poteet.  Does anyone know who he is and whether he is "one of the most
>>Knowledgeable JKD men alive" (quote from D. Inosanto according to this
>>catalog).  The series consists of 5 tapes 45 min. each.
>>
>>
>>-F.
>
>Read Bruce's book before you buy the tapes.  
> 

Poteet is one of the Oakland people, so he is knowlegeable.  The only
problem being that you will most likely be getting a tape that
shows his personal JKD rather than an instruction in overall JKD
itself.  The problem with a tape on JKD is that your limited
to the persons understanding of JKD in relation to themselves.


My advice to F. and everyone else out there?

Get the Tao, and get the Bruce Lee Fighting Method books.  Stay away
from trying to understand JKD or seeking true JKD.  You won't find it.
Instead use the knowlege you gain to promote yourself and help you
with your own ideas and to form your own understandings.  
In this itself, you will embody much of the essence of what was JKD.

> 
>                                           Alejandro Almaguer


Marty

Do
From: mwong@hpcc01.corp.hp.com (Marilyn J Wong)
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1992 22:31:24 GMT
Subject: Re: Movie Review:  Rapid Fire
Organization: the HP Corporate notes server