HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: Mike.Steiner@p1.f207.n143.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Mike Steiner)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: Who's in charge here?
Date: 12 Apr 92 08:56:13 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:143/207.1 - Sunnyvale Fido Conn, Sunnyvale CA


Sue Miller writes about "Re: Who's in charge here?" to All  [11 Apr 92 23:24]

SM> Ummmm, what's RIME? And yeah, it's definitely relative. I experienced 
SM> usenet first, compared to it fidonet seemed (and is) relatively 
SM> well-controlled and structured. Each has its advantages

RIME is another BBS network.  It is literally owned by one woman in the Washington,
DC area--she owns the software technology for Relaynet, and has complete control
over what BBSs are allowed in her network, what conferences are in the network
and who moderates those conferences.  She is known (behind her back) as the
Dragon Lady.

SM> In fact now that I think about it, I may (depending on resources) 
SM> look into the idea of setting up a point in my new location. 
SM> I seem to remember that fido was relatively popular in the UK. 
SM> Sorry to stray from Mensa. Anybody wanna talk about my test scores? 
SM> I got a 98% on my Wasserman!! (heheheh)

You should be able to plug into this forum there if you can get usenet access.
 There used to be some British boards on the Mensa Fido echo from over there,
but they dropped off it about 18 months ago.  Maybe you can stir up something
to get them back into it.
 
/207 143/207
--  
Mike Steiner
UUCP: uts.amdahl.com!kennel!207.1!Mike.Steiner
INTERNET: Mike.Steiner@p1.f207.n143.z1.FIDONET.ORG
"The views expressed above are those of Mike Steiner only."
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: michaelg@Xenon.Stanford.EDU (Michael Greenwald)
Subject: Re: Unbelievable Jump in GRE Score
Organization: CS Department, Stanford University, California, USA
Distribution: na
Date: 14 Apr 92 15:40:17 GMT

michaelg@Xenon.Stanford.EDU (Michael Greenwald) writes:

>zack@shorty.cs.wisc.edu (Zack Xu) writes:

>>    My question is:  have any of you had such an experience?  

[anecdote deleted]

Oops!  I left out the main point, although it was probably obvious
from the story.  Essentially, ETS wouldn't release her score until it
>rose< 300 points on the retest they offered (and it was far less than
a year).
From: roger@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: /T/T/T/ Tai and Lack of Fraud
Date: 5 Apr 92 23:40:06 GMT
Organization: Princeton University
Originator: news@ernie.Princeton.EDU

In article <1992Apr5.212130.12971@ncsu.edu>
 tai@ailab.ncsu.edu (Scott Tai) writes:
>roger@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig) writes:

>> Test scores are NOT inherently linked to race.

>> Not by a long shot.  

>> No study has ever shown that.

>False.  I know you're kinda isolated at Princeton, but get real... 

So name the study.  (Aside from things like the Yerkes studies of World
War I vintage Army Intelligence tests, which WERE culturally biased).  

Cite a study that shows INHERENT racial differences in test scores on
tests used nowadays.  

As for being isolated at Princeton,    

a) I'm not *at* Princeton.  I'm not currently an undergraduate, grad
student, or faculty member (though I have been all three).

b) Princeton is the home of Educational Testing Service.

c) I used to work there.  I've used their library.  It's extensive.

d) In the 11 years since I left ETS I've worked on more than one study
that involves the characteristics of test scores, including racial
breakdowns, and read countless more.  Have you ever read one?

e) My wife has studied intelligence testing, and has a Ph.D. in
psychology.  She tells me that your statements about testing are way off
base.  

Now, how about you tell us where you get your information from?

If I'm wrong about the above claim, then all you have to do is cite ONE
study in a posting.

Instead, what do we get?  "You're isolated," and "get real."

What are YOUR qualifications in this discussion?  What have YOU read or
studied concerning intelligence tests? Or Aptitude tests, or any other
kind of tests?  

By your statements, and your responses to requests for clarification,
it's very easy to assume an answer:
 -- You've never read anything authoritative on the subject.

 -- You don't care to.

 -- Your prejudices are enough for you.

 -- You have no interest in anything but spreading nastiness and
prejudice around here.

 -- You have a lot of growing up to do.

 -- Or perhaps you need professional help.  Anyone who posts dozens of
things in a row, most of them with NO content other than a smart-aleck
remark or an insult, very likely has a screw loose.  

 -- In ANY case, you need to read new.announce.newusers.

Roger

>---------
>Scott Tai
From: ts@cup.portal.com (Tim W Smith)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: Issac Asimov
Date: Thu,  9 Apr 92 08:17:25 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)

Phil Hill writes the following:
> Most of you know that Issac Asimov died earlier this week at the age of 72.
> Issac was a member of Mensa for many years.  (About two years ago, he
> decided to not renew his membership, citing poor health and that he was no
> longer seeing any benefit for remaining a member[Unable to attend functions]. 
> At the time, Mensa was probably getting more mileage from his membership
> [Did you know that Issac Asimov is a member!] than he was getting
> from us).  He was very active in Boston Mensa (my chapter - sadly way before
> my time) when Mensa was just being formed in the US.  He was also very active
> in New York Mensa.  He was renowned for leaching after young women at RG/AGs.

In "Asimov Laughs Again," he has a couple of Mensa stories.  Before the
first one, on page 139, he says,

	"I was a member of Mensa for many years; Mensa is an
	 organization of high-IQ people.  I never enjoyed my
	 membership, however.

	"In the first place, I found that high-IQ people can be
	 just as stupid as low-IQ people--much more stupid, in
	 fact, because they think they are bright.  They tend to
	 be mind-proud, veiw themselves as a persecuted minority,
	 and are, in general, unbearable.

	"The worst thing of all is that they are forever trying to
	 challenge each other, and I was a particular target.  The
	 young kids at Mensa were forever trying to shoot the old
	 man down, and I didn't want to play the game.  Eventually,
	 I simply resigned."

							Tim Smith
From: tai@ailab.ncsu.edu (Scott Tai)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: /T/T/ What is the purpose of this newsgroup and Mensa?
Date: 6 Apr 92 18:54:11 GMT
Reply-To: tai@ailab.ncsu.edu (Scott Tai)
Organization: NCSU Artificial Intelligence Systems Laboratory

jess%miracle@merk.com (Shi'nayne) writes:

> No, YOU come back when  you can offer some concrete facts to this group!!

Just following your example of cutting someone else's article and appending
one or two lines of text to it...

Sheesh!

---------
Scott Tai
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: rhs@world.std.com (Richard H Schwartz)
Subject: Non-sequitor, but interesting (was: A criticism)
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1992 23:51:18 GMT

choy@skorpio.Usask.CA writes:
>Suppose the universe is bound by physical laws. 

I can agree with this.  

>All of us are forced to act according to these laws. 

I can half agree with this.  As local concentrations of organized matter
and energy, we may be obliged to abide by lots of physical laws, but
our actions are allowed to create short-term increases in local concentrations
of matter and energy, and thereby defer the local effects of at least one 
physical law.  With this one exception, lots of structures have emerged,
and some of these further increase the ability to organize.  Add to this the
fact that some physical 'laws' are decidedly non-deterministic, and the
conjecture that our actions are 'forced' is severely weakend.

(Here I should point out that I'm interpreting the original post as meaning
that the state of the universe is pre-determined by physical laws.  Is this
what was intended?)

>Intelligence is just something we've
>concocted, not clearly either. Anyone who thinks he has
>intelligence is really fooling himself/herself/itself. 

Here's where I find non-sequitor.  If our actions are forced by physical
laws, we can't have just concocted intelligence or anything else.  It
would be concocted for us, or with us, but not by us.  And it would be
fooling ourselves only to deny its existance.

And if our actions are not forced, then the position that intelligence
exists when physical processes are able to plan and direct actions that
create further local increases in organization seems plausible.  So 
again nobody's fooling anyone (except Mother Entropy :-).

OK.  Thats at the level of the physical attributes that constitute
intelligence.  How about at the conceptual level?  Sorry!  I'm not in
a Metaphysical frame of mind today...  Anyone else?

BTW, "The Emperor's New Mind" is a really neat book with some interesting
ideas about intelligence.  I'm not sure if I remember the author... Roger
Penrose, maybe?  There's some fairly substantial math to get through in
the early chapters, and some fairly substantial physics in the late 
chapters, but I found that I was able to skim through the hard parts of 
both and still understand the book's central theme, which boils down to
something like this:  "Something non-deterministic at the quantum level
contributes some unknown thing to intelligence, and this contribution 
can impart certain insights into things that are not computable.  So, AI
is doomed to ultimate failure since there is no way for a Turing Machine to 
handle non-computable problems."

-rich
-- 
             Richard H. Schwartz, Scheduling Systems Inc.,
            1000 Massachusetts Avenue, Cambridge, MA  02138
                  (617) 864 8330; FAX (617) 864 8377
                          rhs@world.std.com
From: phil%miracle@merk.com (Phil Hill)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Issac Asimov
Date: 8 Apr 92 20:31:43 GMT
Article-I.D.: miracle.08Apr92153143
Organization: Miracle Computer Consultants

Most of you know that Issac Asimov died earlier this week at the age of 72.
Issac was a member of Mensa for many years.  (About two years ago, he decided to not renew his membership, citing poor health and that he was no
longer seeing any benefit for remaining a member [Unable to attend functions].  At the time, Mensa was probably getting more mileage from his
membership [Did you know that Issac Asimov is a member!] than he was getting from us).  He was very active in Boston Mensa (my chapter - sadly way before
my time) when Mensa was just being formed in the US.  He was also very active
in New York Mensa.  He was renowned for leaching after young women at RG/AGs.

So I was wondering if anyone has any good Issac/Mensa stories out there to
share with us.

We shall all miss the good Dr. Asimov very much.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Phil Hill                     | "All you people in TV land,           |
| Miracle Computer Consultants  |   I will wake up your empty shells.   |
| Email: phil%miracle@merk.com  |  Peak time viewing blown in a flash,  |
|  -or-  phil.hill@channel1.com |   as I burn into your memory cells.   |
| FAX:   (508)875-3297          |  'cause I'm alive." - Peter Gabriel   |
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: michaelg@Xenon.Stanford.EDU (Michael Greenwald)
Subject: Re: (T) INTELLIGENCE DEBATE: PART I
Organization: CS Department, Stanford University, California, USA
Date: 14 Apr 92 15:22:19 GMT

Mike.Steiner@p1.f207.n143.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Mike Steiner) writes:


>Michael Greenwald writes about "Re: (T) INTELLIGENCE DEBATE: PART I" to All
> [13 Apr 92 10:17]

>MG> Cyril Burt is now generally accepted as having perpetrated a 
>MG> fraud.

>The most recent evidence available throws doubt upon the allegations of fraud;
>however, not all the evidence is in yet.

You mean he was the >victim<, rather than the perpetrator, of fraud?  

I'm not well-versed in the details, so I probably have this all wrong.
Isn't it the case that Burt has at least one paper where the
distribution of the data points fits >exactly< with ideal statistical
distributions, and so was apparently constructed?  Didn't he list some
collaborators who were fictional characters (or who never existed)?
Didn't the correlation of IQ between pairs remain the same (to N
decimal places, where N>1) when he more than doubled the number of
twins sampled?

If you mean that it wasn't "fraud", in the sense of "deliberate" --
sure.  Most people assume that this was a result of some mental
illness.  If you mean, that the results were real; then I'm not sure
how to reconcile that with the circumstantial evidence above.

What's the most recent evidence?

(I should point out that it's quite possible that I have the facts all
jumbled, so perhaps they're not as damning as I am making out.  I
believe I acquired these from an article in the New York Review of
Books, sometime this year, and from The Mismeasure of Man.  Neither is
handy, and you might imagine both to have a political slant that would
tend to make them slight Burt.  I seem to remember both being fair
w.r.t. Burt, but I can't swear to it, and will certainly stand
corrected if I'm fuzzy here.)

> 
>/207 143/207
>--  
>Mike Steiner
>UUCP: uts.amdahl.com!kennel!207.1!Mike.Steiner
>INTERNET: Mike.Steiner@p1.f207.n143.z1.FIDONET.ORG
>"The views expressed above are those of Mike Steiner only."
From: Mike.Steiner@p1.f207.n143.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Mike Steiner)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Tai the Fraud
Date: 7 Apr 92 07:50:36 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:143/207.1 - Sunnyvale Fido Conn, Sunnyvale CA


Scott Tai writes about "Tai the Fraud" to All  [06 Apr 92 21:45]

>  -- Or perhaps you need professional help.  Anyone who posts dozens of
> things in a row, most of them with NO content other than a smart-aleck
> remark or an insult, very likely has a screw loose.

ST>  Hmm... anyone want to volunteer to help Mike Steiner? :) 

He meant you, you dumb shit.
 
/207 143/207
--  
Mike Steiner
UUCP: uts.amdahl.com!kennel!207.1!Mike.Steiner
INTERNET: Mike.Steiner@p1.f207.n143.z1.FIDONET.ORG
"The views expressed above are those of Mike Steiner only."
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: ehp@poe.acc.Virginia.EDU ("Didi Pancake")
Subject: Re: Books that last
Organization: University of Virginia
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1992 19:28:19 GMT

In article <1992Apr10.051706.3994@Princeton.EDU>
bathurst@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Bruce Bathurst) writes:  
> 
>(Stuff deleted...)
>
>With this assumption in mind, one can envisage the first adequate 
>substitute for the book.  (Adequate only, because it doesn't improve 
>upon the book.)  
>
>(More stuff deleted...)
>
>It is light to carry, and roughly 10 inches long, 8 inches wide, and 
>1 or 2 inches thick.  It is of very high quality, but inexpensive, 
>and folds open in the center to two flat, extreme resolution, 
>flickerless screens that appear as illuminated paper when activated.  
>Additional wish list of details deleted...)
>
>One advantage of the little electronic, or light, book is that it can 
>be read just as clearly in dim or no room light--this means outdoors on 
>a starry night.  
> 
>The economic possibilities of the light book (assuming the world has 
>an economy by then) would seem to exceed those of the computerized
>typewriter, or PC.  Scholars want it for obvious reasons, but everyone
>else wants it to read in bed.  
> 
>Bruce 

I would suggest that this might actually become a reality when we "solve"
the "problem" of using broadcast power instead of batteries or plug-in
cords. Last summer I heard Alan Kay give an interesting talk in which he
forecast that the next real breakthrough in making computing machinery
more useful and more accessible to the "man in the street" would be just
this. In fact, it would prove the next technological revolution because
of its affect on every facet of our industrial/information oriented
lives. When, instead of being wired for networks, buildings are wired for
broadcast power use, then the large storage capacities of current media
can be exploited in completely different ways.

Of course, you still have the problem of coming up with enough resources
to put all the data into machine-readable format to begin with. And
some library somewhere will always have to house the printed "back-up
copies"... :-)
--
|  Didi Pancake         |       "There is a great, red cheeseball        |
|  ehp@virginia.edu     |       of insanity in this picnic basket."      |
|------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|  All the usual disclaimers about the origins of these opinions apply.  |
Xref: sparky rec.org.mensa:2987 alt.atheism:8267
From: amitchell@mac.cc.macalstr.edu
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa,alt.atheism
Subject: Re: Brainwashing (was Re: IQ and religious belief)
Date: 10 Apr 92 09:00:46 -0600
Organization: Macalester College

In article <92099.100017J5J@psuvm.psu.edu>, J5J@psuvm.psu.edu (John A. Johnson) writes:

>>> graham writes:
>>>> Before I answer what do you mean by 'belief' and do you mean something
>>>> different when you say 'belief' and 'assumption'.
>>
>>In my search for a suitable definition, I'm finding that my assumptions tend
>>to
>>be much easier to renounce than my beliefs are.  Maybe I should go look it up
>>in Webster or something, but I'm trying not to be cheap about this.  I may end
>>up doing it anyway....
> 
> If you are going the dictionary route, better use the OED rather than
> Webster's.  But Graham is not asking what the dictionary means by
> 'belief' and 'assumption,' but what YOU mean.  You've put your finger
> right on the important connotative difference for us:  assumptions are
> much more tentative and subject to revision than beliefs.
> In our search for rationality, Graham and I attempt to remain as
> open as possible to intellectual reconsideration by employing
> assumptions rather than beliefs.

I know Graham is asking what *I* mean, and that's why I'm trying to be REALLY
careful and taking a long time to do this.  I'm trying to figure out EXACTLY
what I mean when I use the two terms.  Another difference I'm finding is that I
tend to make assumptions about things that can be proven, while what I call my
beliefs are usually about things that can't be proven.  For example, I don't
think it's possible to actually PROVE that 1+1=2, but I wholeheartedly believe
it, and make many assumptions that are based on that belief.

>>> However, Graham, you tend to state that you *believe* that all beliefs are
>>> irrational, not that you *assume* that all beliefs are irrational, and
>>> therefore, I think my question still applies.  I could understand if you
>>stated
>>> beliefs were *non*rational, but you don't.  I think all of this just boils
>>down
>>> to sticky semantics, though....
> 
> Indeed.  I think it is better to say that Graham and I DEFINE beliefs as
> irrational...

Yes, I think so as well, but in the past Graham has said that he *believes* all
beliefs are irrational.  Unfortunately, I can't pull up the information any
more because this newsgroup has been almost *completely* deleted by the Director
of Computing Services (AAARGH!).  As I said, it just boils down to sticky
semantics.

Allison
amitchell@macalstr.edu
amitchel@math.macalstr.edu

My beliefs are not necessarily those of anyone else here at Macalester --
especially the administration.....

If I don't respond to any more of these, it is because the director of
computing services has deleted this newsgroup from our files.  If you want
something to get to me, it's best to use e-mail, as I may not be able to read
or post to this newsgroup.
From: tai@ailab.ncsu.edu (Scott Tai)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: /T/ about "RE" in replies...
Date: 6 Apr 92 21:06:57 GMT
Article-I.D.: ncsu.1992Apr6.210657.4235
Reply-To: tai@ailab.ncsu.edu (Scott Tai)
Organization: NCSU Artificial Intelligence Systems Laboratory

tordm@vana (Tord Malmgren) writes: 

> could everybody replying to a posting PLEASE put a "RE:" in the
> subject line?! my kill file won't kill all stupid non-creative
> replies otherwise... especially from fidonet, my god...
		       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Tell me about it!

---------
Scott Tai
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: gmark@cbnewse.cb.att.com (gilbert.m.stewart)
Subject: Re: Illiteracy
Organization: AT&T
Distribution: na
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1992 15:13:05 GMT

In article <14142@claris.com>, Mike_Steiner@qm.claris.com (Mike Steiner) writes:
> In article <702450700.F00003@blkcat.UUCP>, Dave.Aronson@f120.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Dave Aronson) writes:
> > 
> > Mike.Steiner@p1.f207.n143.z1.FIDONET.ORG writes:
> > 
> >  MS> it would answer those who ask "What does Mensa do?"
> > 
> > The opposite of what the simple folk do, of course!  B-)
> 
> So what do the simple Mensans do?

Watch flame wars and giggle.

GMS
From: Mike.Steiner@f207.n143.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Mike Steiner)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: Use of this newsgroup (Was Re: TIME
Date: 8 Apr 92 00:57:49 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:143/207 - Sunnyvale Fido Conn, Sunnyvale CA

"Bifurcate?  What a disgusting thing to do in the middle of a
discussion. :)"
 
Life's a bitch, then you bifurcate.

/207
--  
Mike Steiner
UUCP: uts.amdahl.com!kennel!207!Mike.Steiner
INTERNET: Mike.Steiner@f207.n143.z1.FIDONET.ORG
"The views expressed above are those of Mike Steiner only."
From: Mike.Steiner@p1.f207.n143.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Mike Steiner)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: /T/T/ The 2% Rule
Date: 6 Apr 92 09:45:50 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:143/207.1 - Sunnyvale Fido Conn, Sunnyvale CA


Scott Tai writes about "/T/T/ The 2% Rule" to All  [05 Apr 92 23:55]

ST> phil%miracle@merk.com (Phil Hill) writes: 

> I will provide those figures after you supply the figures for the Cathoic
> Church, the Replician & Democratic Parties, Students at *YOUR* college,

ST> Those will be provided when they create a newsgroup. 

What the fuck does that have to do with it, asshole?  Oh, I get it--you're not
against Mensa; you're against a newsgroup about Mensa.

ST> Sheesh!

Exactly.
 
/207 143/207
--  
Mike Steiner
UUCP: uts.amdahl.com!kennel!207.1!Mike.Steiner
INTERNET: Mike.Steiner@p1.f207.n143.z1.FIDONET.ORG
"The views expressed above are those of Mike Steiner only."
From: Mike.Steiner@p1.f207.n143.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Mike Steiner)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Tai's Lies
Date: 6 Apr 92 09:56:36 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:143/207.1 - Sunnyvale Fido Conn, Sunnyvale CA


Scott Tai writes about "Tai's Lies" to All  [05 Apr 92 23:55]

>> Funny, I always thought the problem with them was their terrorist
>> activities and their spreading of hatred and lies and rumors and
>> intimidation.

 >ST> Problems rooted in their beliefs: hatred of certain groups of 
>ST> people.

 >Are you saying that Mensans have a hatred of certain groups of people
> and engages in terrorist activities against them?

ST>  No, I was referring to the Ku Klux Klan. (Do you have a reading 
ST> comprehension problem?) 

No, but you do--even with your own writings, asshole.
 
/207 143/207
--  
Mike Steiner
UUCP: uts.amdahl.com!kennel!207.1!Mike.Steiner
INTERNET: Mike.Steiner@p1.f207.n143.z1.FIDONET.ORG
"The views expressed above are those of Mike Steiner only."
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa