From: J5J@psuvm.psu.edu (John A. Johnson)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Re: WEEMBA and DABROSKI Angst (Was: Re: Achilles heels for religion?
Date: 6 Apr 92 17:47:25 GMT
Article-I.D.: psuvm.92097.134726J5J
 <92093.115540J5J@psuvm.psu.edu> <72428@netnews.upenn.edu>
 <92094.103824J5J@psuvm.psu.edu> <72562@netnews.upenn.edu>
 <92094.152745J5J@psuvm.psu.edu> <72835@netnews.upenn.edu>
Distribution: world,public
Organization: Penn State University

In article <72835@netnews.upenn.edu>, weemba@libra.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P
Wiener) says:
>
>In article <92094.152745J5J@psuvm.psu.edu>, J5J@psuvm (John A. Johnson)
>writes:
|>I'll consider you an atheist if you answer "YES" to the first question
|>below and "NO" to the second question:
|
|>1.  Are you a theist?
|
|>2.  Do you believe you do not have a relationship with God?
|
|>That's my acid test.

>I will not respond to this one either.
>>Your statement from the initial line of this post:
>>>>>Really now.  Who said I was a nonatheist?
>>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>suggests that perhaps you are not a nonatheist.  But, because you did
>>not come right out and say, "I am an atheist, and whoever said I was
>>a nonatheist was mistaken," you left room for doubt.
>
>That was my intention.

It seems to me that you enjoy confusing people by being evasive.

>My personal beliefs or lack thereof are irrelevant
>to the discussion--I want people to respond to my assertions and arguments,
>not what they think I might believe.

Whether or not you are an atheist is indeed irrelevant to your arguments
on many subjects.  However, whether or not you are an atheist is NOT
irrelevant to the question of whether or not you are an atheist, and
THAT is the question here.  My original post on this thread stated my
annoyance about seeing so many nonatheist postings when I logged in.
Your reply:  "Who said I was a nonatheist?" suggests that I might
be wrong to assume that you are a nonatheist.               ^^^^^
I'm trying to determine whether I was mistaken to suggest that my
screen was filled with postings from nonatheists.  You are not
helping at all to resolve whether I was mistaken or not.
>
>>                                                      I tried to
>>remove the doubt by asking you if you are an atheist.  You
>>refused to label yourself as such.  When people refuse to label
>>themselves, I assume the label does not apply.  Therefore, I
>>will continue to assume that you are not an atheist until you are
>>willing to say, "I am an atheist."
>
>Why don't you help me out?  Which God do I believe in?

Belief in ANY God will disqualify you from using the label "atheist"
to describe yourself.  Define God any way you wish.

Please note, however, that I'll still assume you are a nonatheist
unless you say that YOU do not believe you have a relationship with
God (defined any way you wish).  I clearly understand that many
Jewish people believe that all Jews have a relationship with God, even
if they deny God's existence.  You have refused to make clear whether
you are one of these Jews who believes he has a relationship with God
regardless of his belief in God.

I'm sure you remember how I pointed out that it is absurd for one and
the same person to profess disbelief in God and belief that he has
a relationship with God.  But a person who is fond of koans might not
be afraid to face such an absurdity.  Just wondering what your position
is.  And I will continue to wonder until you desire to make your
position on these issues clear.

If you fail to clarify your position, not only will I continue to assume
that you are not an atheist, I will begin to assume that you enjoy
obfuscation as an end in itseslf.

>If you're going to put the theist label on me,
>you're obligated to fill in some details, please.

Absolutely not.  The question is not what KIND of theist you are,
but whether or not you are an atheist.
Newsgroups: alt.atheism