HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ambidge@ecf.toronto.edu (Chris Ambidge)
Subject: Re: Liberty (was something relevant about CO-2 long ago...)
Organization: University of Toronto, Engineering Computing Facility
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 15:48:14 GMT


Piglet and Alan, among others, have been debating gender-neutral
language of late.  Here is some of the discussion:

[Alan]
>>>My daughters don't much care that a lot of their reading refers to
>>>"he" and "him" - they have enough self-esteem to realize that
>>>its just a lack of a good English language second-person-neutral
>>>pronoun.

[Piglet]
>>Well, goody for them.  I do care.  I guess I just don't have
>>enough self-esteem.  Or maybe it's that I finally do.
>
[Alan]
>Maybe.  Maybe not.  Or, perhaps focusing upon gender-language
>isn't as important an issue as other, more pressing demands?
>

As George Orwell pointed out in Nineteen Eighty-Four, language and
how we speak  *does* have significant impact on how we humans think.

Then again, to those who think "man" and "mankind" and the rest
are "inclusive", one can ask, what is wrong with  this sentence:

	"Man, being a mammal, breastfeeds his young"

It just doesn't work in late-20th-century English.  The  language
is a living thing, and cannot/should not be fossilised or chipped
into stone for all time.  

Some things have to go, and some things have to be/are being changed.
I agree with some of these suggestions:

>>Now, I say that language works for us, not we for it.  It's time
>>there was a neutral pronoun in English.  Along with a neutral
>>reference to "man" in the sense of "mankind", and so on.  All
>>such constructs as "poetess" "actress" "sculptress" "authoress"
>>should be shot at dawn and burned in effigy.  Along with "Miss"
>>and "Mrs.".
>>
>>
>>Piglet
>
>Then propose something, and start a campaign to get people to use
>it.  Howzabout these:
>
>	woman		womyn
>	his/her		just substitute the plural "their"
>	him/her		herm

>	He/She		Sheesh
>	Edwin Newman	Edwin Newperson
>

The last two I personally don't like -- sheesh because it means
something else, and Newperson because it's  a proper noun (initial
capital, and all that).  It's also trivialising something that is
quite serious.

There are areas around here (North York [suburbs of Toronto] Board
of Ed, for instance) where they and their are accepted as 
words for singular persons, not exclusively for the plural case.
This gets some pedants in a hissy fit, but that's *their* problem.

Chris
-- 
Chris Ambidge / ambidge@ecf.toronto.edu / ambidge@ecf.utoronto.ca  
   chemical engineering / university of toronto
   200 college st / toronto ON / M5S 1A4 // 416 978 3106
From: muffy@remarque.berkeley.edu (Muffy Barkocy)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: Roy's "consenting" slave
Date: 14 Dec 92 11:56:53
Organization: Natural Language Incorporated
	<1992Dec9.182752.21052@harlqn.co.uk>
	<1992Dec9.220722.19483@bcrka451.bnr.ca> <s882916.724315458@otto>
NNTP-Posting-Host: remarque.berkeley.edu
In-reply-to: s882916@otto's message of 14 Dec 92 06:44:18 GMT

In article <s882916.724315458@otto> s882916@otto (Vikki POLLARD) writes:

> You men just don't get it huh?

We *people* "get it"; we just don't *agree* with it.  I'm also a woman,
in case no one has noticed...*grin*.

Muffy
--

Muffy Barkocy                      | ~Can you tell me how much bleeding/it
muffy@mica.berkeley.edu            |  takes to fill a word with meaning and/
"amorous inclinations"? Aha! I'm   |  how much how much death it takes/to give
not "not straight," I'm *inclined*.|  a slogan breath?~ - Bruce Cockburn
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: seamus@ravel.udel.edu (James G Dilmore)
Subject: Re: Moms, and getting them back (was Re: Coming Out: The Report)
Organization: University of Delaware
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 18:03:27 GMT

In article <1992Dec11.155543.2255@cbnews.cb.att.com> eleanor@cbnews.cb.att.com (eleanor.j.evans) writes:
>
>I really need a hug.  Or 20.
>
>Piglet...
hugs and sympathy.
I know the feeling, I have mongo fights with parents at times.
I just really leaves me feeling shity
so empathy to you too
strong tight hugs
hugs



-- 
Jim Dilmore - seamus@brahms.udel.edu   or  dilmore@che.udel.edu 
               SILENCE = DEATH                I'm not a puzzle piece 
This is not a black and white world,          don't try and fit me in.
to be alive I say the colors must swirl- Live.     The Origin.
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: cjmchale@dsg.cs.tcd.ie (Ciaran McHale)
Subject: Re: Attack of the Seperatists (was Re: Roy's "consenting" slave)
Organization: DSG, Dept. of Computer Science, Trinity College Dublin
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 12:34:36 GMT

In <s882916.724315912@otto> s882916@otto (Vikki POLLARD) writes:
>I've been called many things in my life elf but never a seperatist. Shit
>I don't think a married woman fits the bill of a separtist. And
>I wish you and other people would read what I write. I thought I made it clear
>that my posting only commented on Roy's situation. I have no opinion of
>your life and I DID NOT say that my opinion is a blnaket one that refers
>to ALL S&M r'ships.

It would help people follow the thread if you could quote a bit of
context from the post which you following up. For example, in the above
posting I don't know who it was that called you a seperatist.

Also, the email address in the header of your postings is "s882916@otto"
which I doubt is valid. Please get it fix and/or put your email address
in a .signature. (I wanted to email this to you rather than post it, but
I couldn't.)


Ciaran.
-- 
---- Ciaran McHale (cjmchale@dsg.cs.tcd.ie)
\bi/ Department of Computer Science, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland.
 \/  Telephone: +353-1-7021539 FAX: +353-1-6772204
Xref: sparky soc.bi:16542 soc.motss:52264
From: broughton@lambda.usask.ca ()
Newsgroups: soc.bi,soc.motss
Subject: Re: Canada - was Re: Age of Consent??
Date: 14 Dec 1992 19:06:19 GMT
Organization: University of Saskatchewan
Distribution: world
Reply-To: broughton@lambda.usask.ca ()
NNTP-Posting-Host: lambda.usask.ca

In article <manz.723840668@ee.ualberta.ca>, manz@ee.ualberta.ca (Brett {Druid Queen} Manz) writes:
|>In <1fg6iiINNak8@access.usask.ca> broughton@lambda.usask.ca () writes:
|>
|>>manz@ee.ualberta.ca (Brett {Druid Queen} Manz) writes:
|>>...
|>>|>On the original topic, last I heard the age of consent still isn't equitable.
|>>|>16 for straights, 18 for LesBiGays.  This may have changed recently, but I'm 
|>>|>not sure.
|>
|>>If you read the FAQ, you would know that the current situation is as follows in
|>>Canada:
|>
|>I don't need to read the FAQ.  I live in Canada.

If you have the facts wrong, it doesn't matter where you live.

|>>The age of consent for sex for anyone is 14 years of age.
|>
|>Are you sure of this?  I was almost positive that it was 16.

I am *ABSOLUTELY* sure of this.

|>>If you are below age 14 but at least age 12 you can consent to sex with anyone
|>>who is 2 years (or less) older than you.
|>
|>>Under the age of 12 the law does not specify what you can't do.
|>
|>>The only exception to the above is that the age of consent for sex for anyone is
|>>18 years of age if:
|>
|>>1. one of the people involved is in a position of authority over the other
|>>   person.
|>
|>>2. money is involved. (YES, prostitution is LEGAL in Canada over the age of 18;
|>>   however, solicitation is NOT legal.)
|>
|>>3. anal sex is involved.
|>
|>These restrictions are nullified if the persons involved are married.  Thus
|>the inequity.

This is hardly a significant inequity since very few couples -- gay or straight
-- are going to get married before they are 18 years of age just so that they
can have anal sex, etc.

Darrell
From: vashti@concave.cs.wits.ac.za (Vashti Galpin)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: Pins
Date: 16 Dec 92 09:44:03 GMT
Article-I.D.: concave.vashti.724499043
Organization: None to speak of

In <BzBDvI.EIo@news.udel.edu> eowyn@brahms.udel.edu (Zoe Antonia Velonis) writes:
>So Merry Christmas
>Happy Kwaanza
>Happy Hannukah
>Merry Winter Solstice

>Merry Summer Solstice (for those of you in the So. hemisphere)

Thanks for remembering the hemispherically disadvantaged (but I'll be
overcoming that next year, more info to follow later).

>THINK SNOW!!!!!!!!!

Well outside it's about 27C, so I don't like it's likely to snow, but it
would be really interesting if it did.

>Happy New Year!
>and a whole round of *hugs* and *snuggles* and *squeezes* to everyone out
>there!

And the same to you *hug*
                                                                ____ 
                                                                \bi/ 
Vashti (popping out of her work-imposed exile to waste           \/
hundreds and thousands of dollars, pounds and rands to
tell everyone about the weather in Johannesburg)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: litterst@pecan.cns.udel.edu (The Assasin's Guild)
Subject: Re: Moms, and getting them back (was Re: Coming Out: The Report)
Organization: University of Delaware, Newark
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 00:59:29 GMT

In article <1992Dec11.155543.2255@cbnews.cb.att.com> eleanor@cbnews.cb.att.com (eleanor.j.evans) writes:
>>In article <1g6a6bINNnpm@agate.berkeley.edu> rsr@soda.berkeley.edu (Roy S. Rapoport) writes:
>
>>>It's nice to have my mom back. 
>
>I remember recently boasting here about the great relationship
>between my mom and I...whom the ghods will strike down, and all
>that....  I just had the ugliest fight with her last night, and
>now I'm not going home for Christmas (for the second time in
>my life--and the first time was over 10 years, and I was in
>another country---Scotland, in fact...).
>
>I really need a hug.  Or 20.
>
>
>Piglet...

*HUG*HUG*HUG*HUG*HUG*HUG*HUG*HUG*HUG*HUG*HUG*UG*HUG*YGUH*GHUG*UGHG*HG*UHG*GUH*
*HUG*HUG*HUG*HUG*HUG*HUG*UGH*HG*HUG*HUG*HUG*HU*HG*HUG*HUG*HUG*HGU*HGU*HGU*HUG*

	Howz that?  I'm going home for Christmas but only because I have no
	choice.  I hope things get worked out.  

					Steve
-- 
| The Assasin's Guild           |  No matter how subtle the wizard...     |
| c/o Stephen C. Litterst       |   A knife between the shoulder blades   |
| kyraan@bach.udel.edu           \   will always cramp his style.         |
|_litterst@freezer.cns.udel.edu___\_____________Stephen Brust_____________|
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: dwells@lonestar.utsa.edu (Darren . Wells)
Subject: Re: Introduction, or De-Muffining
Organization: University of Texas at San Antonio
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 18:25:57 GMT

In article <1992Dec12.012308.19404@athena.cs.uga.edu>
 wells@athena.cs.uga.edu (Scott Wells) writes:
>
>Says the Wells in Georgia:
>
>Dammit. It was my out-coming that started this string. *sniff*
>And no-one is coming to *snuffled gasp, sniff* see me.

Is this an invitation?  *flirt flirt*

>Scott
>
>6'3", dark short hair, brown eyes, bisexual, and horny as ....
>                       ^^^^^
>
>And is everyone so tall around here ?

With any luck.  (no offence to anyone who might not be tall)
This _would_ be quite an interesting group . . .

Darren
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: sa121@cl.cam.ac.uk (S. Arrowsmith)
Subject: Re: A question about Stephen M. Conley
Reply-To: SA121@phx.cam.ac.uk
Organization: Glad to be Sad
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 17:00:22 GMT

In article <1992Dec11.104107.24400@dcs.warwick.ac.uk> gothick@dcs.warwick.ac.uk (Matthew B. M. Gibson) writes:
>gtoal@ibmpcug.co.uk (Graham Toal) writes:
>
>>In article <Bz1wG5.6FL@cck.coventry.ac.uk> idx009@cck.coventry.ac.uk (the Crisco Kid) writes:
>>>Sorry, I *still* don't believe in the existence of political parties
>>>with any principles other than "We want to be in power".  Alice
>>>Cooper was right.
>
>>Monster Raving Loony Party.  They don't want to be in power.
>
>Which is a great shame - They're possibly the only party I really trust... ;-)
>
Particularly true if their local candidate happens to be the landlord of 
your local.  That's *real* community politics.  OK, so it's not my local
anymore (I've moved), but at least he beat the Natural Law party candidate
(do they count for wanting to be in power or not?  Hard to tell....)

--
\S
SA121@phx.cam.ac.uk  | There's nowt |"And in this moment, I need to be needed
(and elsewhere)  ___ | so queer as  |"When my self-esteem is sinking,
                 \X/ | folk....     |"I like to be liked" -- Peter Gabriel
From: winsor@geek.NoSubdomain.NoDomain (js)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: Another one with a problem...
Date: 20 Dec 92 21:56:35 GMT
Organization: Texas Instruments Incorporated, Austin
NNTP-Posting-Host: geek.teng.ppd.ti.com

In article <3LaZVB9w165w@Micor.OCUnix.on.ca>, panda@Micor.OCUnix.on.ca (Elizabeth Holden) writes:
|> jcf@world.std.com (Joseph C Fineman) writes:
|> 
|> > And to hell with people who demand that you call yourself this or
|> > that.  "Identity" (in the psychological sense) is an idiot
|> 
|> Huh?  Why?  I think the notion of "identity" is important because to each 
|> of us our self-image is important.  If someone *else* tries to define 
|> your identity by attaching a label, that's something different and 
|> doesn't mean a thing.  But defining oneself.... well, it's part of 
|> knowing yourself - trying to put it in words and concepts - and to most 
|> people I've observed, this is fairly important to coping with the world.  
|> Understanding oneself and relating to others in view of this 
|> understanding.

"Know thyself?  If I knew myself, I'd run away!"

js
Xref: sparky soc.bi:16979 soc.motss:53211
From: mls@panix.com (Michael Siemon)
Newsgroups: soc.bi,soc.motss
Subject: Re: Liberty (was something relevant about CO-2 long ago...)
Summary: oy vey!
Date: 21 Dec 92 02:35:22 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Unix & Internet, NYC

In article <BzKx7n.9Aq@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu> dbshapco@napier.uwaterloo.ca (Brad Shapcott) writes:

>>Not in my experience, she doesn't.  However, she has observed that the
>>most clueless, inappropriate, and nonsensical suggestions are proposed
>>almost exclusively by men.

>So?  Do you educate them or slap them around?

Yes.  (or ignore them.)  Why does every twit-in-need-of-education think
that HE is so much the center of the universe that there is some NEED
for the rest of the world to coddle him?

>The first twenty-something years of my life (and I'm under thirty, so take
>that as the majority of my life) were spent in a mode something like this.
>[This might hurt us all a bit].

Not really -- there are certain "growing pains" that are expectable.
These are inflicted rather haphazardly on all of us: some people have
it "easy;" some don't.  What the young find hard to comprehend is that
this process is about as interesting as a 13 year old needing a new
pair of jeans.  However agonizing your OWN ill-fit to society might
be, it is mostly your OWN look-out to find the clues you need.  You
will find many of good will to hand you a clue, like a silver rose
-- but if you galumph around *demanding* one, you won't get it.
-- 
Michael L. Siemon	"We honour founders of these starving cities
mls@panix.com		 Whose honour is the image of our sorrow ...
			 They built by rivers and at night the water
			 Running past the windows comforted their sorrow."
From: as010b@uhura.cc.rochester.edu (andrew david simchik)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: Singing Queers
Date: 20 Dec 92 17:46:20 GMT
Organization: University of Rochester - Rochester, New York

In <BzKF1E.BwL@demon.co.uk> gtoal@pizzabox.demon.co.uk (Graham Toal) writes:

>In article <1992Dec20.065657.12837@galileo.cc.rochester.edu> as010b@uhura.cc.rochester.edu (andrew david simchik) writes:
>:In <1992Dec18.072152.5307@cltr.uq.OZ.AU> yal@cltr.uq.oz.au (Yvette Lian) writes:
>:[lots of queer musicians' names]
>:I heard rumours about Sarah MacLachlan, and don't forget the Depeche boys
>:(at least Martin, and Vince Clarke now of Erasure).
>:Pet Shop Boys, too.

>But remember folks, *don't* include that certified heterosexual Jason. :-)

>G

Terribly ignorant, I know, but to whom are you referring?  (Jason??)

Drewcifer
-- 
***************************************************************************
** Andrew David Simchik, registered Scorpio ************* SCHNOPIA! *******
***************************************************************************
as010b@uhura.cc.rochester.edu
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: Albert-Lunde@nwu.edu (Albert Lunde)
Subject: Re: Lurkers
Followup-To: soc.bi
Originator: lunde@casbah.acns.nwu.edu
Reply-To: Albert-Lunde@nwu.edu (Albert Lunde)
Organization: Ministry of Silly Walks
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 05:09:12 GMT

In article <fgr2f1@rpi.edu> 
 safarj@rebecca.its.rpi.edu (Jonah Emanuel Safar) writes:
>rsr@soda.berkeley.edu (Roy S. Rapoport) writes:
>>Then again, it's the net.persona issue again ... I have no idea how exactly
>>I'm coming off, in terms of my personality ... I've had two or three cases
>>when people approached me in some forum or another, talked, then said "You
>>know, I'm really glad I gathered up the guts to talk with you.  You're not
>>nearly as intimidating as I thought you'd be."  Intimidating? Me? Dear God
>>... 
>
>Roy, intimidating? <Cleans out his ears.> Yer right, I don't believe it...
>When I think of Roy, I get this image of a big fluffy type person at a
>keyboard.  Intimidating if you get between him and the power switch mayhaps,
>but still... In the words of the Hitchiker's Guide: "Mosty harmless."
>Hrm.. now, about this sudden spate of people recognizing me, mind telling
>me what is going on?  And what is this about I rep?  I deny having one!
>(What is it?) <Grin> [...]
>-Points (In a rather strange, silly mood... must be lack of sleep.) 

Maybe some people are seeing the top and others are seeing the bottom,
or otherwise accessing alternate personas. Let's see what we
can bring out do to bring out Roy's big fluffy persona... ;)

Any suggestions...

-- 
 Albert Lunde         | Interfaith  |     *Y*Y*      "A branch on the
 Albert-Lunde@nwu.edu |  Bisexual   |      *Y*        tree of life"
                      |  Feminist   |.......|.........................
From: cyan@uhura.cc.rochester.edu
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: NOTICE - Details of the March on Washington
Date: 17 Dec 92 20:05:11 GMT
Organization: University of Rochester (Rochester, NY)

In article <1992Dec17.063917.2263@news.acns.nwu.edu> Albert-Lunde@nwu.edu (Albert Lunde) writes:
>I am struck, as a bisexual, by the fact that transgender people
>are taking the heat that bisexuals were taking not so long
>ago.

Albert, as  a transgendered person (and bi as well), being "dumped-on"
bothers me as well. It doesn't surprise me though ... as the saying goes,
"Shit rolls down hill". A while back, I had a black friend who surprised
me by declaring a general racist hatred toward Vietnamese people. At that
time, I thought that my friend, as a member of a supressed minority, would
have an understanding of what it was like to be stomped on and have compassion
for other suppressed minorities. I feel a similar attitude prevails amongst
the LesGay community towards T* folk. It's not a hatred per say, more of an
"embarrassment".

>I have been told by les/gays and les/gay-supportive folk (on occasion)
>that saying "gay, lesbian and bisexual", would inevitably lead to
>including transvestites, transexuals, BSDM folk (or various others).
>
>I don't think this is inevitable, and indeed there may be some elements
>of self-fullfilling prophecy involved.
>
>At the same time, I'm a lot more comfortable with the process that
>produces a wide-open "queer" movement (recruiting allies ;)...
>than a process that would say "We got ours, let's slam the door."
>
>"First they came for the transgenders"...
>
>Will I have nothing to say?
>

I agree with you and support the idea of a wide-open "queer" movement.
I've personally made some progress by contacting the campus Gay Lesbian
Bisexual Friends Association, about including T* folk in both their
outreach campaign and membership. I had a fabulously positive response
back! I'll be working with them to get this off the ground. It really
does feel good. My local T* support group is trying to form a liason
with a LesBiGay positive church (Metropolitan Community Church). The
church is offering us meeting space as well as welcoming us to their
activities. There is hope!

Thanks for the support Albert!

Sherri Christopher
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: dwells@lonestar.utsa.edu (Darren . Wells)
Subject: Re: Introduction, or De-Muffining
Organization: University of Texas at San Antonio
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 02:46:39 GMT

In article <Bz9Jwt.Ez6@cck.coventry.ac.uk>
 idx009@cck.coventry.ac.uk (the Crisco Kid) writes:
>
> Not so tall I have to stand on a box to see anything other
>     than their crotch.

(although this might have its advantages . . . )

>    Kay

BTW, Kay, I have been cut-off from the net for a few days, and I can
tell that I have missed quite a bit here.  Are you still thinking about
coming to Texas?  (hopeful look, tail wagging)

Or at least hitting the Northeast metime around the week of the 5th
(when I am on vacation, and free to jet-set around the world)?

*stifled giggle*

Darren
(praying for a modem to magically fall out of the sky, perhaps from
Santa's sleigh?)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: dbshapco@napier.uwaterloo.ca (Brad Shapcott)
Subject: Re: Liberty (was something relevant about CO-2 long ago...)
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1992 20:00:22 GMT

In article <1992Dec18.194804.2371@tc.cornell.edu> shore@dinah.tc.cornell.edu (Melinda Shore) writes:
>I forgot, in my previous posting, to thank all you Big
>Smart Men for explaining to us Poor Addled Women exactly
>how to go about achieving gender parity.  Thanks!

Why this place has become a magnitude more unfriendly since I was last
reading soc.bi, I can't exactly tell.  But it could be exactly things
like this.  You want some respect and credibility, you tell us *your*
perspective and *your* opinion.  It can't be divined out of inflammatory
posts like this.

Obviously you are pissed off about something.  That anger though is
clouding whatever message you might be trying to put across, and making
it difficult for me not to go into a defensive posture.

Why can't men understand or comment on gender parity?  Why does every 
attempt to do so have to be characterized as condescending and arrogant?
What difference does the gender of the person who pens or mouths the
rhetoric or ideologies make?

Seemingly, a whole hell of a lot of difference.

>--
>       Melinda Shore - Cornell Theory Center - shore@tc.cornell.edu

If men seem clueless, perhaps it is because most who are struggling with
these issues are ten years behind.  A part of your mind would do us a
world of good better than the back of your hand.  People who are struggling
with new ideas often appear sophomoric, arrogant and intellectually
akward and the worst possible thing to do is to discredit them as worthwhile
people because of this learning process.


Brad
Newsgroups: soc.bi