From: cse0115@uoft02.utoledo.edu
Subject: RE: Peace?
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.40    
Originator: Mughal@Romeo.Caltech.Edu (Asim Mughal -Moderator)
Organization: California Institute of Technology
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1992 04:48:00 GMT


In article <ktpb3jINNotg@crewcut.cs.utexas.edu>, hyder@cs.utexas.edu (Syed Irfan Hyder) writes:
> In article <1992Apr1.124747.6790@uoft02.utoledo.edu> cse0115@uoft02.utoledo.edu writes:
>>	The last I heard that attempts and some progress was being made towards
>>peace talks.  However there is one question in my mind.  Muslims believe that
>>all non-muslims are going to hell.  I feel that because of this, a number of
>>Muslims give the impression that they are superior to the rest of us
>>non-muslims.  
> 
> Let's clarify the position of Muslims:
> 
> Anyone (Muslim or Non-Muslim) who disobeys Allah and his injunctions,
> even after the "truth" has come to him, is going to Hell.

	Perhaps I should have said that Muslims believe that a large percentage 
of non-Muslims are not going to heaven.

[response deleted]

> 
> 
>>Also Israel is not officially recognised by a muslim nation
>>(that I know of).  With this attitude or appearance how can 
>>peace in the Middle
>>East be achieved.  A few Jews I spoke with are willing to 
>>give up some land for
>>peace as they did with Egypt.  
> 
> This is a "conflict" which must be decided on the basis of
> "justice" and "fair-play". Palestinians are definitely the
> aggrieved party. According to the "demands of justice", it
> is the right of an aggrived party to decide how much
> compensation is "just" for their "loss". If the "legitimacy"
> of "Israel" in itself is "disputed", how can anyone "recognize"
> it, until "justice" has been dispensed.

	You speak of justice and fair play.  What about the Jews being
slaughtered by the Nazis, what about the American Indians who were driven out
of their land,  and what about the millions of innocent people who have lost
homes or their lives as a result of war.  This is injustice.  The Palestinians
aren't the only ones to be treated in this way.

> 
>>What are Muslims willing to do for peace?
> 
> We are willing to set up a "court" where the parties involved
> bring their case and proof's thereof. On the basis of universal
> concepts of "justice" and "fairplay" we are willing to settle
> the "issue" __ provided all the "aggrieved parties" are
> allowed to present their case without restrictions. Even US law
> allows any citizen to file a claim and provide whatever
> proof they have without hinderance. Would you call it justice, if
> only an arbitrary number of citizens are allowed redress and others
> denied the due process? However if the aggrieved party itself 
> decides to limit the claimants, it is up to them.

	Are you willing to do this for the American Indians also?  I think this
idea is not very practical.

> 
>>
>>	As a Christian I understand the conflict between non believers and
>>believers.  However despite this conflict, Christians have live amongst
>>non-believers peacefully.  There is not one major Christian country.  The
>>U.S. was started by believers but they felt it was more important that the
>>country was not ruled by religion.  I feel this contrasts with many Islamic
>>states.
>>
> 
> History of the Islamic administration of "foreign lands" testifies
> to the fact that Islam has never persecuted the minorities. Tell me
> how many years Islam had been dominant in Jerusalem. See for yourself
> the number of churches, synogogues and mosques all side by side.
> If you look at the crusades takeover of Jerusalem, you will see
> how the foreign crusaders persecuted their own coptic christians,
> let alone Muslims and Jews. History says that the minorities
> were relieved to see Saladin take it back from the invaders
> [See "Islam" by John L. Esposito for more references]. The same
> living together in harmony of Muslims and other minorities is
> testified to other Muslim cities [See episodes on "Egypt" and "Iraq"
> in the docu. "Legacy" by Michael Wood, which aired on PBS some time
> back]

	Are you saying reports of violence against Christians by Muslims are
false?  This is not my point, but it was brought up.  In recent years the
Church has suffered much at the hands of Muslims and Communist alike.

> 
> I can give you other examples, where the minorities welcomed Islamic
> forces over their co-religionists. 
> The above doesnot apply to the modern Muslim states, which are
> ruled by Muslims and not Islam. It only applies to places
> where "Islam" was the rule of land, not a "sheik", king or dictators. 
> 
> 
> Just a friendly advice:
> 
> Please don't try to apply the lessons learned from the
> European experience of Christian Clergy on to Islam. One of
> the biggest reasons of misunderstanding about Islam is that
> West looks at it from the "perception of its own experience
> of Christian Clergy" and not from the perspective of
> what Islam and Islamic history has been! Islam and Islamic
> experience of "minorities" is diametrically opposite
> to the corresponding Western experience. So, if we
> do not try to apply conclusions derived from other
> places which have nothing to do with Islam
> and Islamic history, which are not even applicable, the 
> issues we now confront would be easier to resolve.

	Everything I have learned about Islam is from Muslim students and some
video tapes they presented to me to watch.  I have also heard (I believe this
is the correct name) Dr. Badawi, if the name is wrong I apologize but it has
been nearly a year since he spoke here.


-James

Newsgroups: soc.religion.islam