HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: claudius@leland.Stanford.EDU (Nelson Lu)
Subject: Re: NL ROY: More Fuel for Debate
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 92 01:09:32 GMT

In article <6640@blue.cis.pitt.edu.UUCP> genetic+@pitt.edu (Dr. Dave) writes:

>>What I mean is...
>>
>>Eric Karros has some value this year, despite being below average.  How
>>much is that value?
>
>What value did he have?  He had some value in the sense that he was better
>than just playing 8 guys, or playing me at first base.  But, in the sense that
>other teams were getting more from their first basemen, he was *not* helping
>the Dodgers win.
>
>The baseline, as I see it, is a .500 winning percentage.  If everybody had
>the same talent, then everybody would expect to win half their games (though
>of course random variation would cause a more-or-less symmetric spread around
>81-81 records).  The way you win more games than you lose is by having above-
>average performances.  If a player is below average, he's helping you lose,
>relative to what other players at that position are doing.  If Karros's park-
>adjusted numbers are below average, then he's helping the Dodgers lose, and
>his value should be measured accordingly.

However, he has value in the sense that he is definitely above replacement
level.
>
>>By using MLV, the *more* Karros plays, the more he gets punished by getting
>>more and more negative MLV.
>
>That's because he's costing his team more and more games, relative to other
>first basemen, and other first basemen are the only relevant yardstick.

I feel the relevant yardstick should be...

How much production should we expect out of a player whom the Dodgers can
replace Karros with by picking someone off the waiver wire, signing a minor
league free agent, make a very minor deal, etc.  You'd get someone like Gary
Redus, most likely.  How much would Karros contribute over such a player?

===============================================================================
GO CALIFORNIA ANGELS!
===============================================================================
Nelson Lu (claudius@leland.stanford.edu)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: sckelm@iastate.edu (Steven C Kelm)
Subject: Pat Mahomes - Observations and Questions
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, IA
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 14:09:08 GMT

Last night WGN carried the game between the White Sox and Twins.  It was the
first time I had seen Mahomes since his recall from Portland.  As he did 
earlier in the year, he performed well without any baserunners on and was 
shaky when there were men on base.  However, I did notice some things that 
seemed odd to me.

1)  With a runner at first, Mahomes pitches from the stretch, obviously, but
    he noticeably crouches down; both knees bent, whole body closer to ground.
    He appears VERY tense.

2)  With more than one runner on, he pitches from a much more relaxed position.
    He doesn't crouch down, and looks much better. 

Under condition 1), Mahomes appeared very uncomfortable and threw some mighty 
fat pitches.  Do other pitchers have similar pitching stances that are 
dependent on where the runners are?  They probably do, but are less 
pronounced.  I'm assuming that he was doing this to help with a pick-off 
move to first. 

3)  Who calls the pitches for the Twins?  Is it Harper or Kelly/Such?  

This part of the game was fairly atrocious last night.  When the 
Sox had the bases loaded, Raines got nothing but fastballs.  The next
two batters, Thomas and Bell, also got nothing but fastballs that
they proceeded to hit very hard.  Following this, Such visited the mound,
and the next batter, Ventura saw a number for off-speed pitches before 
he popped up to shallow left field. Admittedly, Mahomes best pitch is
the fastball, but you have to keep the batters off-balance.  In any case, I 
still think Mahomes will become a very good pitcher in the near future, i.e.
next couple of seasons, as he learns to make the transition from thrower to 
pitcher.

As a side-note, the White Sox announcers truly pathetic.  

Steve Kelm

   
    
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: gerry@skatter.usask.ca
Subject: Re: Jack is a winner
Organization: University of Saskatchewan
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 23:17:53 GMT

From article <1992Sep30.022308.9055@midway.uchicago.edu>, by thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu (Citecheck Hell):
> six if the Jays don't win four out of five.  (God forbid the Trib could
> print a pennant race schedule--I know Milwaukee plays Seattle Tuesday
> and Wednesday, but I don't know anything about their last four games.)
> -- 

Just so you don't go off half-cocked and sue someone for mental anguish or
something here are the final games of the Jay's and Brewer's:

Brewers:
Thurs. Oct.1 Milwaukee at Seattle
Friday Oct.2 Milwaukee at Oakland
Saturday Oct.3 Milwaukee at Oakland
Sunday Oct.4 Milwaukee at Oakland

Jays:
Friday Oct.2 Detroit at Toronto
Saturday Oct.3 Detroit at Toronto
Sunday Oct.4 Detroit at Toronto

Your welcome.
--
Gerald Gryschuk            Saskatoon,Saskatchewan = a place with 9 months
gerry@sask.usask.ca           of hockey and 3 months of poor skating.
Go Habs!!!
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: The FASS Theatre Company <fass@math.uwaterloo.ca>
Subject: JAYS CLINCH!!!!!!!
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1992 03:13:17 GMT


Ladies and gentlemen the Toronto Blue Jays have won the American League 
East.  That felt good, so I'm going to say it again the Blue Jays won.  
The Brewers made a fantastic run at the title but the Jays stayed composed, 
and didn't choke or stumble or buckle under pressure.  The Jays won!

If you watched the game you know that despite Guzman's strong performance,
Tom Henke did his best to keep fans sitting on the edge of our seats.
Hell, I was on the edge of my balcony.  It seems the Jays always find
ways to keep it exciting. 

Can the Jays make it past Oakland?  Will Kelly Gruber bat his weight?
Will Jack Morris continue to get enough run support to hide his
"shoe-size" ERA uh I mean will he continue his clutch pitching performances?

Find out all this and more on the next episode of J.A.W.S.
						(Jays Attempt the World Series)



Lee.

Just when you thought it was safe to go back to the Skydome again....


Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: O1DOUG@VM1.CC.UAKRON.EDU (Doug Miller)
Subject: Re: Active Career HR Leaders, by Season
Organization: The University of Akron
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 05:40:31 GMT

   I seem to remember that going into the 64 season Duke Snyder had over
400 home runs, at least more than Mays 406, if you have the info could
you clarify.
From: kiviat@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Brian Kiviat)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Lighten up!(and Cy Young)
Date: 5 Oct 92 17:26:18 GMT
Reply-To: kiviat@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Brian Kiviat)
Organization: Carderock Division, NSWC, Bethesda, MD

In rec.sport.baseball, snichols@adobe.com (Sherri Nichols) writes:
>Enough already!
>I personally am rather tired of the whole stats vs. non-stats war.
>before posting, and ask "Is this about baseball?", and if it isn't, take it
>to e-mail.

Very well said.....If people would only follow that last comment...use
e-mail for flames please.

Now for the baseball commentary:
Mussina for Cy Young....18-5......5 leads blown by relief pitching...
3 of those were in the ninth inning.  Also his team rarely scored more
than three runs. He had a few 2-1 3-2 losses. If someone has his run
support stat, I'd be interested.  Morris.....ya kiddin' me ERA above
4.5......Eckersley only pitched in 80 or so innings...Give Eck the MVP
not the Cy Young.....Clemens....well...He's a Red Sox and I'm an O's
fan....(What is the singular of Red Sox...Red Sock?).....

   O
   I\   Brian Kiviat (301)227-1833       The people who know alot, and
   I \  kiviat@oasys.dt.navy.mil         the people who want you to
  /     David Taylor Model Basin         think they know alot. The hard
   \___________________________          part is discerning the difference
			     \\          between the two.
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: oxley@pdn.paradyne.com (Don Oxley)
Subject: Re: PIRATES AGIAIN!!!
Organization: AT&T Paradyne, Largo, Florida
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 12:01:00 GMT

In article <kelrH_S00WBOQ6ZH4o@andrew.cmu.edu> Eric Alva Dunmire <ed19+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
>
>
>CLINCHED 3rd STRAIGHT !!!!
>
>
>ANY QUESTIONS!!!!!!!!
>
>

Yeah.  How come they can't win the NL Championship?

Sorry, couldn't resist!!!!  :-)  


DonO

--
Don Oxley     |Internet: oxley@pdn.paradyne.com|"It is better to keep your mouth
AT&T Paradyne |UUCP:     uunet!pdn!oxley       | shut and appear stupid, than to
Largo, FL     |--------------------------------| open it and leave no doubt."
(813)530-8282 |  Opinions are mine, not AT&T   |               -Mark Twain
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: sgs@stein.u.washington.edu (Steven Smith)
Subject: Birthdays
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 23:59:58 GMT

Another installment from the datehead (thanks, Kurt, for the idea):

Baseball Birthdays

October 7
Chuck Klein, 1904 (HOF)
Jose Cardenal, 1943
Frankie Baumholtz, 1918
Grady Edgebert Hatton, 1922
Rudy Law, 1956
Phil Ortega, 1939
Bud Daley, 1932
Moses Fleetwood Walker, 1856

--Steve
-- 
 sgs@u.washington.edu             * 
 Steve Smith                      * "We want a pitcher, not a belly itcher." 
 University of Washington HR-20   *    			-- Bill Plummer
 Seattle, WA 98195                * 		
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: claudius@leland.stanford.edu (Nelson Lu)
Subject: NL ROY: More Fuel for Debate
Originator: claudius@leland.Stanford.EDU
Organization: DSG, Stanford University
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 92 03:45:03 GMT

According to my measure of expected runs above replacement level, here are the
top 10 NL rookie position players...  (But actually, I might miss a couple,
since I only did it for the players who have started 27 games overall, but
the top few should be correct.)

Reggie Sanders, Cincinnati	23.1
Moises Alou, Montreal		13.3
Dan Walters, San Diego		8.6
Eric Karros, Los Angeles	7.3
Wilfredo Cordero, Montreal	7.1	; it is amazing that he did this in
					; so little playing time
Jeff Kent, New York		6.6	; combined with Toronto stats
Eddie Taubensee, Houston	4.2
Carlos Hernandez, Los Angeles	3.9
Rey Sanchez, Chicago		3.8
John VanderWal, Montreal	2.7

===============================================================================
GO CALIFORNIA ANGELS!
===============================================================================
Nelson Lu (claudius@leland.stanford.edu)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: twhite@mozart.amd.com (Tom White)
Subject: Gammons' Awards
Keywords: postseason  award  Gammons  
Organization: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc.; Austin, Texas
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 92 03:23:07 GMT

Peter Gammons listed his postseason award predictions (choices?)
on SportsCenter on Tuesday.


           American League        National League

MVP        Dennis Eckersley       Barry Bonds
Cy Young   Dennis Eckersley       Greg Maddux
Rookie     Pat Listach            Eric Karros
Manager    Tony LaRussa           Jim Leyland


Really went out on a limb here.  The only surprise to me was Eck for
the AL MVP.  It's a pretty good choice, though, better than some RBI-fat
outeating slugger.  I think it's his only guess that is dead wrong.
I'm still hoping Clemens can collect the CYA, but it doesn't look likely
now.  Ah well, he's still got seven more years to win another half-dozen.


--
 Thomas White          |  I will   | 
 Austin, Texas         | make you  |     Rave On.  
                       |     a     |  
 twhite@mozart.amd.com | believer! |
From: ecaxron@ariel.lerc.nasa.gov (Ron Graham)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Lighten up!
Date: 5 Oct 92 20:30:00 GMT
Organization: NASA Lewis Research Center
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <92279.35226.6669030@LMSC5.IS.LMSC.LOCKHEED.COM>, 
     6669030@LMSC5.IS.LMSC.LOCKHEED.COM writes...

>------------------------- Original Article -------------------------
>>Enough already!
>>I personally am rather tired of the whole stats vs. non-stats war.  I'm
>>tired of being accused of all sorts of nefarious things, [...]

however,

>>this is an open, unmoderated newsgroup.  Anybody can say anything they
>>like.  That includes stat heads *and* non stat heads.  

Ah.  Well, it's one or the other, I suppose.  As we will see, it's fine
for you to say when it's "enough already," but not for me.  (Recall, I
asked Ms. Nichols and Mr. Maynard to "return to baseball" yesterday.)

>>occasionally, someone's going to say something you don't like.  That's
>>simply the nature of the net.

>Thanks for saying that, Sherri.  I would like to go a bit further, tho.
>If I am not mistaken...you were responding to a recent thread where there
>was a statement/rebuttal/refusal/denial/excuse about certain people being
>arrogant.  A certain poster was complaining about statheads being arrogant,
>unprofessional and name-callers...

That was me.  I stand by it.  Unless Ms. Nichols and Mr. Maynard will con-
vince me that their last argument was actually about baseball.

>The very people who were being complained about are the biggest reason that
>I even look at this newsgroup (besides loving baseball)  So what if Huckabay
>is arrogant (You are, Gary)  he's damn funny!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Then I guess I disagree with you.  I don't think he's so funny, either.
I look at this newsgroup because I want to talk about baseball, and because
I want to learn a little bit of what the statheads know.  I don't learn
anything from sarcasm.  When Ms. Nichols says, "if you don't like what's
here, go elsewhere," that's not much of an option for me, is it?  Where 
else are the statheads?

What she really means is, if I want to learn about what the statheads know,
I must sit down, shut up, and put up with anything these people darn well
want to say, about anyone at any time.  And I will not do that.  So come up
with a better option, and this time, don't couch it with obligatory baseball
content.

RG

"Mumble mumble fans in Cleveland mumble mumble baseball mumble 200 hits."
 -  Carlos Baerga, in a radio interview
From: steph@cs.uiuc.edu (Dale Stephenson)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: AL Rookie of Year Award?
Date: 29 Sep 92 22:36:38 GMT
Article-I.D.: pegasus.steph.717806198
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept. of Comp. Sci., Urbana, IL

In <1992Sep29.043819.9110@panix.com> spira@panix.com (Greg "Sarcasm Is A Way Of Life" Spira) writes:

>In <steph.717717072@pegasus.cs.uiuc.edu> steph@cs.uiuc.edu (Dale Stephenson) writes:

>>In <1992Sep25.050240.2328@panix.com> spira@panix.com (Greg "Sarcasm Is A Way Of Life" Spira) writes:

>>>But the basic "problem" with Lofton is this: the best centerfielder in
>>>baseball probably isn't worth as much defensively as the worst defensive
>>>shortstop.  

>>This seems too strong to me.  If we can use the concept of "replacement
>>level defense" for a moment, I would suspect the worst defensive shortstop
>>in the league would convert *less* plays into outs than his replacement
>>would, and is hurting his team defensively.  The best centerfielder in baseball
>>converts *more* plays into outs than his replacement would, and his helping
>>his team defensively.  So the best centerfielder would be far more valuable
>>defensively than the worst shortstop.

>My argument may be a bit strong, but I don't think its more than that.  I
>would definitely think that, say, 24 of the current major league shortstops
>would be worth more than the best defensive centerfielder.  Let's take
>real life examples.  Does Jeff Blauser, a horrendous defensive shortstop,
>have more defensive value than Devon White?

If we replaced Blauser with any other shortstop the Braves have, the Braves
would give up less hits.  So his net value to the Braves defensively is
negative.  Of course, the Braves would make less hits as well.  Normalizing
for position, Blauser's offense is almost on a par with Terry Pendleton.

Blauser has less defensive value to the Braves than does Otis Nixon (especially
if Deion isn't available).  However he's more valuable offensively than
Otis.

>I can't say for sure, but I wouldn't be surprised if he did.

>Interestingly, White was sent to the minors after posting numbers that
>would probably be acceptable for almost any shortstop but were not
>acceptable for the best centerfielder.

If we're going to normalize offensive numbers by position, why not normalize
defensive numbers?

--
Dale J. Stephenson |*| (steph@cs.uiuc.edu) |*| Baseball fanatic

  "It is considered good to look wise, especially when not 
   overburdened with information" -- J. Golden Kimball
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: brianj@hpcvcao.cv.hp.com (Brian Jung)
Subject: Re: Expos logo
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 01:20:39 GMT

In article <CB.92Sep28173954@tamarack13.timbuk>, cb@tamarack13.timbuk (Chris Brewster) writes:
|> 
|> the Expos logo makes no sense to me (that squiggly thing, not the way
|> they write the word "expos").  
|> 

I've pondered this one before and came up with a capital "M" for Montreal
preceded by a lowercase "e" (on the leading tail of the "M") for expos.

|> Chris Brewster
|> cb@cray.com

Brian
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: 6669030@LMSC5.IS.LMSC.LOCKHEED.COM
Subject: Re: Lighten up!
Organization: Lockheed Missiles & Space Company, Inc.
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 92 17:07:26 GMT

------------------------- Original Article -------------------------
>Enough already!

>I personally am rather tired of the whole stats vs. non-stats war.  I'm
>tired of being accused of all sorts of nefarious things, from calling a
>person a "dweeb" (which I honestly don't remember doing), to be insincere
>in my apology, to (horror of horrors) defending another netter.  Look guys,
>this is an open, unmoderated newsgroup.  Anybody can say anything they
>like.  That includes stat heads *and* non stat heads.  You don't like
>what's here, go elsewhere.  If you hang around, you have to expect that
>occasionally, someone's going to say something you don't like.  That's
>imply the nature of the net.

>That being said, I would hope that we could interact here in a more
>civilized manner.  Why don't we all, from now on, stop for a few seconds
>before posting, and ask "Is this about baseball?", and if it isn't, take it
>to e-mail.

>Obligatory baseball content: Zane Smith isn't on the post-season roster,
>according to my local paper.  Does anyone in the 'burgh have the list yet?

>Sherri Nichols
>snichols@adobe.com

Thanks for saying that, Sherri.  I would like to go a bit further, tho.
If I am not mistaken...you were responding to a recent thread where there
was a statement/rebuttal/refusal/denial/excuse about certain people being
arrogant.  A certain poster was complaining about statheads being arrogant,
unprofessional and name-callers...

The very people who were being complained about are the biggest reason that
I even look at this newsgroup (besides loving baseball)  So what if Huckabay
is arrogant (You are, Gary)  he's damn funny!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Vote Huckabay/Lunday on Nov 3.

------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------
Billy K.                           | "I think the perception of reality
6669030@LMSC5.IS.LMSC.LOCKHEED.COM | is more powerful than reality itself
                                   | And in this case, the perception of
Puckett '92                        | of reality is worse than reality
Avg.   Runs   Hits  Rbi            | itself."    -Andy MacPhail, 9/92
325    104    210  110   (yawn...)|
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: sckelm@iastate.edu (Steven C Kelm)
Subject: Re: Lighten up!
Followup-To: sckelm@vincent1.iastate.edu
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, IA
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 21:28:11 GMT

>Then I guess I disagree with you.  I don't think he's so funny, either.
>I look at this newsgroup because I want to talk about baseball, and because
>I want to learn a little bit of what the statheads know.  I don't learn
>anything from sarcasm.  When Ms. Nichols says, "if you don't like what's
>here, go elsewhere," that's not much of an option for me, is it?  Where 
>else are the statheads?
>
>What she really means is, if I want to learn about what the statheads know,
>I must sit down, shut up, and put up with anything these people darn well
        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>want to say, about anyone at any time.  And I will not do that.  So come up
>with a better option, and this time, don't couch it with obligatory baseball
>content.
>
>RG

It seems to me that if a person wants to learn about something, this is 
precisely what should be done.  Questions and comments should always be
welcome, but to argue at length with someone who is more knowledgible 
in a particular area is foolish.  It is one thing to want to learn something,
but quite another to desire to learn it only on your terms.  

Steven Kelm    sckelm@vincent1.iastate.edu
From: f67700241@violet.ccit.arizona.edu (Greg Franklin)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Joe Carter
Date: 3 Oct 92 21:30:59 GMT
 <1992Sep23.234320.1@violet.ccit.arizona.edu> <1992Oct1.133028.2203@vax1.mankato.msus.edu>
Distribution: world,local
Organization: University of Arizona
Nntp-Posting-User: f67700241

In article <1992Oct1.133028.2203@vax1.mankato.msus.edu>, sport@vax1.mankato.msus.edu writes:
> In article <1992Sep23.234320.1@violet.ccit.arizona.edu>, f67700241@violet.ccit.arizona.edu (Greg Franklin) writes:
>> In article <1992Sep24.051823.190@midway.uchicago.edu>, thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu (Citecheck Hell) writes:
>>> Carter's never had more than 709 PA in a season.  From 1986-91, he's had
>>> four seasons around 700 PA, one at 670, and one at 629.
>> 
>> Urrp.  You're right.  Shows you what happens when I forget my Franklin.
>> The point still stands though.  He gets a lot of chances to drive in
>> runs, and so 100 RBI is no big challenge.
> 
>I'm sorry, no matter how many channces he gets, if a man can drive in 100 RBIs
>every year consistantly, I want that man on my team, period.

Taken to the extreme, this is silly.  If you gave Tom Glavine 160,000 chances
at bat over a season, he could get 100 RBIs.

Actually, even though I consider myself a stathead, I agree with you.  A man
who can drive in 100 runs a season in today's game of baseball *would* be
good on my team, I think.

However, if he has as many negatives as Joe Carter, I would not bat him
3rd (maybe 6th or 7th).  I would not talk him up for MVP like the mediots
do.  And if I had enough sluggers already like Bonds, Bonilla, and Fielder,
I would trade his ass for a Brett Butler or Delino Deshields.

I don't think that a great accomplishment in one field implies "he's good,
period," which is what you're trying to say above.  I look for more
evidence than that.
-- 
Greg "Mockingbird" Franklin      Interviewer: "Sir, how do you spell relief?"
f67700241@ccit.arizona.edu               Dan: "R-O-L-A-I-D-S-E."

"[George Bush is] the most ruthless white man in the history of the planet."
	-- Richard Ben Cramer, author of _What It Takes_
"The President scores much better than Bill Clinton."
	-- Dan, comparing Bush's record of marital infidelity to Clinton's
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer)
Subject: Who is the best Red Sox 3B?
Organization: Cornell Univ. CS Dept, Ithaca NY 14853
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1992 14:19:03 GMT


Wouldn't expect there to be any question, would you?  Through last
Sunday, Cooper had a .711 OPS with Boggs at .714.  After last night, I
am sure Cooper has blown by Boggs!  Of course, Cooper has only had
~300 AB, while Boggs has chowed almost 500.  But I think the Boggs era
is through.  Over the last month, Cooper has hit .360+ with 4 HR!  He
has a fairly good eye at the plate, and has good doubles power.  And
he's still only 24.

Cooper isn't going to the HOF, but I think he deserves a real chance
at the job next year.  At this point, he isn't much worse than the
average *first* baseman offensively.  And you don't require quite
such a big bat at third.

Cheers,
-Valentine

-- 
Make outs, not walks!					tedward@cs.cornell.edu
Clemens four Cy Young!
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball