HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.words-l
Date:         Thu, 16 Apr 1992 22:07:55 EDT
 <WORDS-L%UGA.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
From:         Thick headed <FDOLEZAL%UGA.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Reflections on the matter of language change
              16 Apr 1992 19:38:26 CDT from <fwp@CC.MSSTATE.EDU>

On Thu, 16 Apr 1992 19:38:26 CDT Frank Peters said:
>
>Funny thing about definitions...they use words.  So we can define the
>word 'slang' and then happily set about defining the words used in the
>definition...and so on.  And there's the tedium.
>
You assume way too much, sir.  If you wanted to play that game, fine;
but that was not my intention. NO. A simple working definition was all
that was required.
>Interestingly, many intelligent people manage to hold useful
>conversations without having to pause to define every fifth term.  It

I do not recall asking people to define every fifth word.

>is your seeming inability to do so that we find so frustrating.  One
>might almost suspect that you are being deliberately rather than
>accidentally thick headed.
>
More name calling.   It seemed to me that the discussion was tied to linguistic
argumentation; "slang" is ordinary language not technical; so I wanted to
find a common ground (rather than spinning wheels) in order to intelligently
discuss the problem.  Why not just say what you mean when you use the word
slang?  I cannot read y'alls minds.  BTW, I still do not know what was
meant by "slang".  Though, my GUESS is that it means something like "words
you cannot find in the dictionary".... though you cannot find 'morphosyntactic
and no one would call that slang...maybe jargon.
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Date:         Thu, 9 Apr 1992 15:28:59 CDT
 <WORDS-L%UGA.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
From:         "Natalie Maynor" <maynor%RA.MSSTATE.EDU@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
Subject:      Danes
Comments: To: words-l@uga.cc.uga.edu

I just logged back on because something one of my students wrote on
the test I'm grading reminded me of the quotation about Danes that I
said I wanted to give you.  This is from Wardhaugh's -An Introduction
to Sociolinguistics- in the chapter on ethnography/ethnomethodology:

"Several reports have recounted how Danes appreciate silence, being able
to sit in one another's presence for long periods of time without feeling
any need to talk and, indeed, finding visitors who insist on talking
constantly too demanding.  They feel no urge to fill up silences with
idle chatter." (p. 235)  And there are people of Danish extraction on
WORDS-L??

Here are a couple of other passages from the chapter that do remind me
of WORDS-L:

"... other people talk for the sheer pleasure of talking.  Fox (1974)
has described how the Roti, the residents of the southwestern tip of
the island of Timor in eastern Indonesia, consider talk one of the great
pleasures of life -- not just idle chatter, but disputing, arguing,
showing off one's verbal skills, and, in general, indulging in verbal
activity.  Silence is interpreted as a sign of some kind of distress,
possibly confusion or dejection." (pp. 235-236)

Quoted from Reisman (1974, p. 113) by Wardhaugh about Antigua: "In such a
system it is also true that there is no particular reason to find out what
is going on or who is talking before one starts oneself.  There is little
pressure to relate one's subject to any state of the group.  Therefore
it is also quite reasonable to arrive talking, so to speak, and the
louder onw does so the greater the chances that one is heard." (p. 236)

Yep.  WORDS-L sounds more like those last two cultures than like the
Danes.

   --Natalie (maynor@ra.msstate.edu)
     who logged back on to send this one posting and is showing great
     restraint by not reading any mail right now...
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Date:         Fri, 10 Apr 1992 16:21:00 CDT
 <WORDS-L%UGA.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
From:         "815 Stephen H. Karlson 753-6980"
 <TA0SHK1%NIU.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Pedant's Corner (was Russian speakers

Frank, not descended from any Civil War generals, asks if we could
add the Federal Reserve and the graduated tax to the list of
comminglings (that's the nicer word <wink>) of law with economics.

I say, sure.  Maybe we should ask the Czarina to put hand and
seal to a ukase.  Make it more official that way :-)

Steve Karlson

Get a good start and sail on the lifted tack.
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.words-l
Date:         Sat, 11 Apr 1992 11:28:13 CDT
 <WORDS-L%UGA.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
From:         Frank Peters <fwp%CC.MSSTATE.EDU@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
Subject:      Re: sad thought
Comments: To: words-l@uga.cc.uga.edu

In article <01GIP94Z14M8AXF4Q9@ACFcluster.NYU.EDU> "Aaron Dickey, The Happy
 Spore" <AXD7104%ACFCLUSTER.NYU.EDU@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU> says:
>                           Secondary education is, unfortunately,
>becoming a joke, unless you go to a private prep school, which is
>where any child I have will be going if I have to work five jobs to pay
>for it.

A word of warning.  In my (limited) experience private schools don't
provide a particularly better education than public schools.

I lived a block and a half from a private school growng up and several
of my friends went there.  Its true that they were made to read more
'classics' than my public school friends and me.  But they didn't
particularly seem to enjoy it more and I can't think of one who read
much outside of school.  In fact, they seemed to hate it more and
wished that they could go to public school where we weren't made to
read that junk.  And they had less preparation in the fields of science
and math.

My experience with college students (in a different part of the
country) pretty much confirms this impression.

Basically, I think private schools force students to read more but do
no better job of making them WANT to read.  Rather a hollow victory in
my opinion.
--
Frank Peters  -  UNIX Systems Programmer  -  Mississippi State University
Internet: fwp@CC.MsState.Edu  -  Phone: (601)325-7030  -  FAX: (601)325-8921
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Date:         Thu, 9 Apr 1992 16:53:15 EDT
 <WORDS-L%UGA.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
From:         Rita Marie Rouvalis <rita%EFF.ORG@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Cambridge pre-clam slam Raiment
Comments: To: WORDS-L@uga.cc.uga.edu
              the behinder I get" at Apr 9, 92 2:52 pm

> >        Jeans, white sneakers, and a white nylon windbreaker with
> >"University of Lowell" written in light blue letters on the front over
> >my EFF T-shirt.  I have a white flowered headband in my hair.  I
> >am short, medium build, and have longish auburn hair.
>
> 	Wow, I could have sworn I saw someone meeting that description at lunch
> 	this afternoon...

	Wudn't me; that be fur dam sur.  I haven't left the office
since I got here at 9am!


Rita
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Date:         Wed, 15 Apr 1992 13:54:56 CDT
 <WORDS-L%UGA.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
From:         "Natalie Maynor" <maynor%RA.MSSTATE.EDU@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Reflections on the matter of language change

> When you say "Language Change" are you including, say, phonological,
> morphological, etc. change?
> I cannot see how the 'needs' of the culture determine pronunciation
> I would question this notion in semantics also:  but grunting seems
> to be more in the morphophonosyntactic domain; thus the system simplifies
> in one domain,the "sound system", but must in turn get much more complex
> underlyingly (if one were to convey equal info.)  Is there INTENTIONALITY
> behind language change?

The statement that language change is not wrong (or bad) includes all
language change.  The statements that language changes to meet the needs
of its speakers would probably be restricted to certain kinds of language
change.  I agree that phonological changes are probably not related to
cultural changes.  Intentionality behind language change?  Not usually,
although it's not unheard of.
   --Natalie (maynor@ra.msstate.edu)
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.words-l
Date:         Thu, 16 Apr 1992 18:59:00 EST
 <WORDS-L%UGA.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
From:         "Aaron Dickey, still alive"
 <AXD7104%ACFCLUSTER.NYU.EDU@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Old Comedians (was )
Comments: To: WORDS-L@uga.cc.uga.edu

> (Bob Hope) is now quite predictable because his jokes (and their
> style) are so well known.

True, but Bob can get off some real zingers when he feels like it.  He
said quite a few hilarious things at Howard Stern's expense when he was
on Howard's TV show.

--Aaron
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.words-l
Date:         Tue, 7 Apr 1992 19:57:35 -0500
 <WORDS-L%UGA.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
From:         Nancy Harwood <harwood%TENET.EDU@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
Subject:      Re: budget sayings
Comments: To: English Language Discussion Group <WORDS-L@uga.cc.uga.edu>
Comments: cc: Multiple recipients of list WORDS-L <WORDS-L@uga.cc.uga.edu>

> > We've always used fuss-budget...and called our children at that age
> > wiggle-squirms.
>
> I've never heard of "wiggle-squirms."  I've always said and heard
> "wiggle-worms."
>    --Natalie (maynor@ra.msstate.edu)

So had I...my husband started using it to describe our daughters, who
were very good at wiggling (*and* squirming!)

ndh
(who should be sewing on a maternity dress for one of the grownup wiggle-
squirms, but isn't)
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Date:         Fri, 17 Apr 1992 00:02:00 EST
 <WORDS-L%UGA.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
From:         RKESSLER%RCNVMS.RCN.MASS.EDU@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU
Subject:      Cambridge photos
Comments: To: words-l@uga.cc.uga.edu

I expect to see photos of the Cambridge pre-clam get-together tomorrow.
Rita--you'll be able to e-mailize them, right? Where should I send them?
(And thanks for the $3 rebate--got it today.) -rod
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Date:         Wed, 15 Apr 1992 01:50:48 EDT
 <WORDS-L%UGA.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
From:         Rashmi Murthy <rashmi%CBIS.ECE.DREXEL.EDU@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
Subject:      Re: nouns
Comments: To: words-l@uga.cc.uga.edu

> >Nothing at all to do with sex, Bayla
>
> ---But I should think that "multiplication by itself" surely has "to do
> with sex" -- and if it can remain "unchanged," avoiding the blindness and
> insanity usually invoked as consequences, then it will be potent indeed,
> and some operator!
>
> --bayla
>

Ahhhh!  Clearly, it's time to log off when a smiley is needed to spot
the humor. :)

rashmi
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Date:         Tue, 7 Apr 1992 12:33:50 CDT
 <WORDS-L%UGA.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
From:         "Natalie Maynor" <maynor%RA.MSSTATE.EDU@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
Subject:      Net Goblins (was Re: Bomber Crews and PhDssdnd)
Comments: To: WORDS-L@uga.cc.uga.edu

> [received] Tue Apr  7 11:53:51 1992 <------
> Date:         Tue, 7 Apr 1992 09:57:35 CDT <------
>  [...]
> P.S. I'm happy to announce that the net goblins seem to have been
> subdued -- at least for now.

I spoke too soon.
   --Natalie (maynor@ra.msstate.edu)
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Date:         Thu, 9 Apr 1992 06:07:02 CDT
 <WORDS-L%UGA.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
From:         "Natalie Maynor" <maynor%RA.MSSTATE.EDU@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
Subject: Re: ODDS 'N' ENDS

> "Can I lay down with us?", obviously repeating our question of if she would
         ^^^^^^^^
As I said last night, we all (linguists included) have to put up with
crawling skin when language change is occurring.  Les's 27-month-old
daughter is acquiring "correct" grammar for her generation.  As a linguist
I know that there's nothing wrong with that.  The English of her generation
should not be expected to be the English of my generation.  Even Samuel
Johnson finally realized that -- although he continued to fight it.  It
took me a minute to recognize the point Les was making about "with us"
because I was too busy trying to convince my skin to stop crawling from
"lay down."  The linguist part of me was fighting with the other part of
me.  It's my non-linguist part that reacts with crawling skin -- like
Frank of Brown and preterit "sung."

>blew a job interview for a high school English position when I got into an
>argument with the ass. (pun intended) principal about the "need" for teaching
>grammar.  It never made a bit of difference in my reading or writing skills,
>except maybe the "i before e except after c" stuff, or at least any difference
>that I could determine.

People in rhetoric/comp can cite many convincing studies that have shown
that instruction in "grammar" does not improve writing skills -- at least
not for the typical writing student in high school or college.  As various
people have pointed out, professional writers usually do know a good bit
about morphology and syntax.  (I wouldn't put spelling in the same
category, btw.)
   --Natalie (maynor@ra.msstate.edu)
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Date:         Wed, 8 Apr 1992 11:56:00 PST
 <WORDS-L%UGA.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
From:         Lobstrosities Unite <CHRISS%CWU.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
Subject:      Re: CALLING ALL STUDENTS OF RUSSIAN

>That, of course, is a social judgment.  The concept of "grammar improvement"
>makes no sense linguistically.

>>come from a home where good English was spoken, you just DON'T learn the
>                        ^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Another social judgment, not a linguistic judgment.

>   --Natalie (maynor@ra.msstate.edu)

But just so no one is led astray, social judgements are not neither right nor
wrong.  They are conventions that society has decided, consciously or not, to
apply.

Speech is a behavior (the application of language is a behavior) and behaviors,
especially consciously applied ones, are always subject to judgement by your
peers, or by the society in which you live.

Linguistics is a secondary function of language.  Language would exist without
it and therefore the rules of linguistics, or what makes sense linguistically,
is secondary to what makes sense for a society.

Chris
From: gtoal@castle.ed.ac.uk (Graham Toal)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.words-l
Subject: Re: Happy Horoscope
Date: 11 Apr 92 15:18:36 GMT
Organization: Edinburgh University

In article <WORDS-L%92041110215928@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU> CGOODSON%UGA.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU (Carol Goodson) writes:
:>:I am beginning to feel a little resentful about all these *men* expressing
:>:dismay over Karen's age (41)... and it's not just that I recently turned 45,
:>:either.... I looked forward to reaching  40 for years...and the past years
:>:have been the best ever... I was right.
:>
:>
:>If it's any consolation, some of us prefer older women :-)
:>
:>G
:>(Toy boy of 31)
:
:
:***That's my point!  I don't NEED consolation!  (but I know you meant well)

You said you felt resentful - I thought that meant you needed consoled.

I didn't mean it as in 'a consolation prize for being 45'!

Graham
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Date:         Wed, 15 Apr 1992 13:53:25 CDT
 <WORDS-L%UGA.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
From:         Anne Harwell <aharwell%PANAM1.PANAM.EDU@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
Subject:      RE: Elvis stamp
Comments: To: WORDS-L@uga.cc.uga.edu

>as to which Elvis stamp the USPS should manufacture; the "young" Elvis or
>the "old" Elvis?  I have a hunch as to which one this group prefers, but

I vote for Vegas Elvis.

-abh
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Date:         Fri, 10 Apr 1992 10:13:08 +0200
 <WORDS-L%UGA.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
From:         torkel%SICS.SE@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU
Subject:      Re: ODDS 'N' ENDS
Comments: To: English Language Discussion Group <WORDS-L@uga.cc.uga.edu>
              09 Apr 92 09:27:49 -0500. <9204091435.AA08863@sics.se>

  Natalie says:

>Although what I've said works fine for the narrower definition of
>"needs," I would include the broader sense also -- the sense of what
>people perceive as their needs (things that might be considered
>"wants" rather than "needs").  What are these needs?  That varies.
>There's no single answer.  Why isn't there anything wrong with such
>a change?  Why isn't there anything wrong with changing class schedules
>to start classes at 8:15 instead of 8:00?  I can't see anything wrong
>with it -- except possible confusion at first (same is true for some
>changes in language -- e.g., knowing what somebody means by the word
>"disinterested" right now).

  These remarks don't answer the question I had in mind. Let me be a
bit clearer. It may be held that there is "nothing wrong" with any
"natural" change in human culture, since such changes just reflect
people's "needs". So, for example, if our current mathematics,
literature, and music just die and vanish, there is "nothing wrong"
with this. Now this is a perfectly comprehensible view, but I can't
see that anything that linguistics or any other scientific discipline
teaches implies that there is nothing wrong with such changes. Rather,
what "nothing wrong" means in this case, and how we should view such changes,
is a much broader question, rather philosophical in nature.

   On the other hand, it may be that you should be interpreted as saying
that certain kinds of changes in language cannot take place - e.g. the
collapse of English into a set of grunts (one threatening grunt, one
amorous grunt, etc). If so, I am curious to know what changes are assumed
to be possible, and on what grounds.

  The failure to clarify this point is what makes your statement that
language always evolves to meet the needs of the speakers so unsatisfactory.
This is also why I ask what you mean by "communication". A system of grunts
may be a perfect system of communication among people who "need" no other
means of communication, but does this imply that there is nothing "wrong"
with the transformation of English into a system of grunts?
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Date:         Sat, 11 Apr 1992 17:30:05 EST
 <WORDS-L%UGA.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
From:         Karen Kay <LL23%NEMOMUS.BITNET%UGA.CC.UGA.EDU@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
Subject:      RE: Pencils (was Re: TV)
Comments: To: WORDS-L@uga.cc.uga.edu

>      Since you don't have the same problems as Aaron, then obviously
> you aren't using a language for which you are 'directionally
> challenged'.  It is interesting that the responses were concerned with
> 'right-to-left' vs 'left-to-right', and totally ignored the question
> of whether the language's order went vertically or horizonntally.

Except Japanese also goes r-to-l--but only when it's vertical.

Even when I write English, I don't seem to have as much trouble as
Aaron.  Don't know why.

Karen
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Date:         Mon, 6 Apr 1992 06:17:42 CDT
 <WORDS-L%UGA.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
From:         "Natalie Maynor" <maynor%RA.MSSTATE.EDU@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
Subject:      Testing -- Ignore
Comments: To: words-l@uga.cc.uga.edu

This is a test...
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Date:         Tue, 14 Apr 1992 21:08:05 -0500
 <WORDS-L%UGA.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
From:         Nancy Harwood <harwood%TENET.EDU@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
Subject:      re:procrastination (wasRE:pencils (was RE: TV))
Comments: To: English Language Discussion Group <WORDS-L@uga.cc.uga.edu>
Comments: cc: Multiple recipients of list WORDS-L <WORDS-L@uga.cc.uga.edu>

> <I was skeptical, too, until the handwriting analyst pointed out the
> <signs which indicated procrastination...then I thought there just might
> <be something to it...I have this procrastination habit! :-)
>
> I have some great books about procrastination and its cure.  I'll send them
> to you as soon as I get around to reading them. :{)
>
> Les
> (who should be building _Coppelia_ about now, and some masks for a play I'm
> directing, and reading a student's script...)

I keep buying those books, too...and misplacing them before I find time
to read them.:-)
ndh
(who is *supposed* to be making out a test, sewing, and writing a
newspaper story, but is putting off all three by reading mail)
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Date:         Thu, 9 Apr 1992 15:27:27 +0200
 <WORDS-L%UGA.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
From:         torkel%SICS.SE@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU
Subject:      Re: Descriptive and prescriptive
Comments: To: English Language Discussion Group <WORDS-L@uga.cc.uga.edu>
              09 Apr 92 06:42:02 -0500. <9204091143.AA03875@sics.se>

  Natalie writes:

>There is nothing innately superior about "he doesn't."
>People who use "he doesn't" instead of "he don't" do not necessarily
>"think better" than people who use "he don't."

  But has anybody said that "he doesn't" is innately superior to "he
don't"? I hardly know what this would mean myself.
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Date:         Wed, 15 Apr 1992 16:33:30 EDT
 <WORDS-L%UGA.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
From:         CGOODSON%UGA.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU
Subject:      Re: sad thought

On Wed, 15 Apr 1992 14:01:00 EDT <BUHITELA@SUNYJCC> said:
>The "uncultured" classes tend to be "symboling rich", and the slangs they
>develop in one generation, at least the more successful of them, move into
>the "upper" classes and eventually make their way into dictionaries.
>
--and really add to and enrich what existed before...how right
you are....yet to us conservatives, it seems like torture, until we adopt
the new...and make it our own...
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Date:         Thu, 16 Apr 1992 23:00:00 EST
 <WORDS-L%UGA.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
From:         "Aaron Dickey, still alive"
 <AXD7104%ACFCLUSTER.NYU.EDU@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Yo-yo
Comments: To: WORDS-L@uga.cc.uga.edu

WBCN?  Isn't that in Cincinnati?  Or is that Boston?  Either way, that's
out of my reception area.

--Aaron
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Original_cc:  WHITERJ
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Date:         Thu, 16 Apr 1992 22:34:00 MDT
 <WORDS-L%UGA.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
From:         The Ronin <WHITERJ%MSCD.BITNET@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
Subject:      RE: Yo-Yo Ma!

Suggesteth    Anne Harwell <aharwell@PANAM1.PANAM.EDU>

>                                                            Who wants to try
> some IRC 2nite?

Anne,

     I am game, but I am unsure of the exact commands.  Something about
having to telent somewhere it I recall what I have read.

The Ronin
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Date:         Mon, 13 Apr 1992 15:04:00 EST
 <WORDS-L%UGA.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
From:         "Aaron Dickey, The Happy Spore"
 <AXD7104%NYUACF.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Hello???

Oh my...it seems to be MY links that are flubbed up.  I just realized
I'm just NOW getting mail from my up Bitnet WORDS-L link dated Apr 7!
Earlier chuckle withdrawn.  Boy, now I KNOW Internet is better.

--Aaron
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