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Date:         Tue, 28 Jul 1992 16:44:33 EDT
Reply-To:     Bill McGarry <wtm@sheldev.shel.isc-br.com>
From:         Bill McGarry <wtm@sheldev.shel.isc-br.com>
Subject:      Handicap Digest # 2834
X-To:         LHCAP <l-hcap@VM1.NODAK.EDU>

                             THE HANDICAP DIGEST

                                 Issue # 2834

                           Tuesday, July 28, 1992

Today's Topics:


                                ******

                           Blink Talk Digest # 668

                          Re: Artic and sounding b
                          Re: Talked to xerox yest
                               Re: Nls And nfb
                        Re: using readcom with speech
                          using readcom with speech
                         Re: Punctuation and Speech
                          Re: nfb bbs censorship??
                                 Re: Spanish
                             Re: WP Office help
                          Re: nfb bbs censorship??


                                ******


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------



Subject: Re: Artic and sounding b
From: David.Tanner@f168.n129.z1.fidonet.org (David Tanner)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:129/168 - Braille Bank BBS, Pittsburgh PA


[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

 * Reply to msg originally in Blinktalk

 -=> Quoting Barbara Akin to All <=-

 BA> Hi!
 BA> I saw a message on here, but didn't remember who it was
 BA> from that some one had a Sounding Board and Artic software
 BA> for sale.
 BA> I would be interested, please if you read this, and you're
 BA> the one selling it, do leave me a message here, orcall my
 BA> business at 602-468-9852
 BA> Thank you.

     Barbara, if you really did see someone selling Artic software for use
on a SoundingBoard please do me a favor and don't buy it!
     There is no version of Artic software that will work with a
soundingboard synthesizer.  I'll stake my 8 years of experience in the
access technology field on that statement. Artic never has and probably
never will work with a SoundingBoard.
     D. T.

... The last thing I saw was this Big Blue Wave!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10

--
Uucp: ..!uunet!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!168!David.Tanner
Internet: David.Tanner@f168.n129.z1.fidonet.org




------



Subject: Re: Talked to xerox yest
From: David.Tanner@f168.n129.z1.fidonet.org (David Tanner)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:129/168 - Braille Bank BBS, Pittsburgh PA


[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

 * Reply to msg originally in Blinktalk

 -=> Quoting Christopher Hill to David Tanner <=-

 CH> I had an interesting conversation with Xerox yesterday.
 CH> You were right on the discover software not supporting the
 CH> mod25 scanner.  I also found out some more interesting
 CH> news.  Discover had been out since last year, and the lady
 CH> there (sales) told me that they planned on producing a
 CH> Windows version at the beginning of next year.  Oh boy, I
 CH> bet that'll do some fast scanning :-(

 CH> I wonder how the new ver of Arkenstone would work under os/2?
 CH> Later..
 CH> Chris

Chris, from a number of people I have talked to since the recent
conventions I am beginning to wonder whether the best idea is to buy
Window Bridge or Screen Reader for OS2 and get Calera's Word Scan software
at a much cheaper price than the Arkenstone software.  Since Arkenstone
has decided to hang their future on Windows then we may as well go buy
their commercial product for windows and use it with Window Bridge that is
already out or with Screen Reader, which will soon be out.
     Who knows, until all the new products are out on the market for a few
months and get put to the real test I don't think anyone knows how this
thing is all going to pan out.
     I spoke with another producer of one of the top speech packages
around who indicated that his company is getting very close to having a
speech software for windows.  That brings to 6 the number of speech
producers that I know of that are now actively working on solving the
access to windows problem.  The person I talked to today seems to feel
that by this time next year we will all be using Windows.  I don't know,
but the race is getting real interesting.
     D. T.

... The last thing I saw was this Big Blue Wave!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10

--
Uucp: ..!uunet!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!168!David.Tanner
Internet: David.Tanner@f168.n129.z1.fidonet.org




------



Subject: Re: Nls And nfb
From: Ron.Denis@p0.f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Ron Denis)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:129/89.0 - BlinkLink, Pittsburgh PA


[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

C.A.  books with the arkinsone ...

I have only scanned three or four books so far though my intentions
were to do more.  Time is always a problem.  I don't thing the lack
of a book edge is a problem and apparently neither does Kurzweil
ass they are offering regular scanners with some models.  My
complaint with the arkinstone is that the scanner that is standard
is too small to lay out legal sized paper or a "big book" open
faced.  With smaller books, I generally scan as a batch reading
later.  A book placed flat in a "decolumnized mode" will do two
facing pages at once and do them quite well.  I got Arkinstone
intending to use it on books and haven't been disappointed although
it ain't perfict.

     Ron

--
Uucp: ..!uunet!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!89.0!Ron.Denis
Internet: Ron.Denis@p0.f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org




------



Subject: Re: using readcom with speech
From: Ron.Denis@p0.f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Ron Denis)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:129/89.0 - BlinkLink, Pittsburgh PA


[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

Tim,

When I had the same problem, I merely set up an hyperactive window
to handle it.  I have a set file for this, quite simplistic
actually, but effective.  Unfortunately, it is for vocal eyes
version 2.0.  I don't think it would help much.  Make you own.  It
won't be hard just cover the page portions you want and save the
set.

     Ron

--
Uucp: ..!uunet!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!89.0!Ron.Denis
Internet: Ron.Denis@p0.f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org




------



Subject: using readcom with speech
From: Eric.Bohlman@p3.f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Eric Bohlman)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:129/89.3 - BlinkLink, Pittsburgh PA


[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

 TC>  TC> aI just got my copy of the new rfb quarterly catalog on disk including
 TC> the read.com program. i'm using it with vocal-eyes 1.1. the problem I'm
 TC> having is that i have to keep going in to Review mode to read  the
 TC> screen.
 TC> I had the same problem when using it with my asap demo and my version
 TC> of tiny talk. However, when I used read.com with soft vert 4.5 b, (and

Is your version of Tinytalk old enough that pressing Page Down initiates a
cursor read that flushes speech?  If so, that's been fixed for some time now.

--
Uucp: ..!uunet!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!89.3!Eric.Bohlman
Internet: Eric.Bohlman@p3.f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org




------



Subject: Re: Punctuation and Speech
From: Carla.Campbell@p0.f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Carla Campbell)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:129/89.0 - BlinkLink, Pittsburgh PA


[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

DA> She has a KPR and uses its DEC-Talk for speech with her
 DA> computer.  She has tried both Artic businessvision and JAWS.
 DA> She doesn't like the way it reads.  She says it doesn't sound
 DA> natural.  She doesn't want to pronounce the punctuation marks,
 DA> period coma, etc., but she does want the system to pause
 DA> noticably, breaking up things into sentences.

Hmm... I haven't heard Jaws and Artic BV with a DECTalk, so I'm hard
pressed to know how much (or little) they do pause at punctuation.  I do
know that those settings are a *pain* to change on the DECTalk, even if
your software will allow you to use them without overriding the DECTalk
settings.  I also remember that a lot of DECTalk/Flipper users used to
say that they liked the way Flipper handled inflection and pauses better
than any other speech software with that synthesizer.  I don't know if
that still holds true, but I do remember it pausing rather nicely with
Flipper and it might be worth her looking into a demo copy jsut to see
if it does what she want it to do.

There's also a "pass through all ASCII characters to synthesizer"
setting which allows you to bypass Flipper's control of some speech
parameters.  If the natural Flipper pause weren't enough and you could
figure out the stupid escape codes to use to re-define the DECTAlk
pauses, this *might* help by allowing the DECTalk control of how the
".", "," and so on are pronounced.

                                                --Carla

... Read what I mean, not what I write!

--
Uucp: ..!uunet!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!89.0!Carla.Campbell
Internet: Carla.Campbell@p0.f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org




------



Subject: Re: nfb bbs censorship??
From: Carla.Campbell@p0.f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Carla Campbell)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:129/89.0 - BlinkLink, Pittsburgh PA


[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

Hi, David.

Thanks for taking the time and thought to respond.

 DA> Carla,  Your point of examining the article to learn about what
 DA> others think of us is an interesting and good one, although
the   DA> BBS isn't necessarily the best place to do that, and certainly
 DA> isn't the only place where it can be done.

Nope, it isn't the only place, I know.  But it *is* a very grass-roots
communication medium on which rank and file can be heard as clearly as
they can write; as clearly  as anyone else. (one of the things I've
always liked about BBSs.) and I thought that organizational image might
be something which rank & file members might be especially qualified to
discuss, since they are the ones who really go out into the
"communities" and recruit, impress, depress, and otherwise interact with
non-members.

Sure, the head offices hear the voices of the people who feel strongly
enough to write letters or make nasty phone calls, but do they hear the
voices of the people who are, as I said, *potential members*?  Do they
know what *they* think?  Seems to me that the NFB-Net would be a prime
place to receive feedback on members' encounters and discussions with
non-members.

 DA> You state that internal debate is not tolerated.

Hey, wait! In the interest of responsible reeporting, I didn't "state"
that.  I stated that that is what I have been told by ex-members and
current members.  I have no means by which to "state" it, outright,
having not been a member who tried to debate anything/got supressed.
I'll get back to you if I ever am in a position to know for certain.
(I predict I'd last about a week. ;-) )

DA> Once
 DA> a matter has been voted upon and a resolution is passed, public
 DA> debate is tolerated, but private debate goes on all the time.

I suppose I am a little confused.  It's ok to "debate" a matter, once it
has been resolved and a policy has been set on it?  Up until that time,
who decides what will go on the ballot to be voted *on*? I dunno.... I'm
sort of into democracy, and while I understand the need for a united
front and a public face on things, I have a difficult time understanding
where the NFB/its members draw the line between "public" and "private,"
when it comes to debating issues and policies before they are set in
stone.

 DA> Dr. Jernigan has called me up any number of times, or asked me
 DA> when I am in his office, what I thought about this or that.

Did you ever disagree with him?  Did it matter? (this is not meant as an
attack. I am merely personally curious.) I also wonder if Joe Blindguy
in Kalamazoo's opinions matter.  You, after all, are well-known to the
officers and are an integral part of the organization, so I am hardly
surprised that you have been asked for opinions-- especially in areas
where you have an existing reputation for knowledge.

DA> He
 DA> does regularly and systematicly gather opinions on a variety of
 DA> subjects.

I'm glad to hear it.  That partlly answers my question, above; though I
still wonder from whom the opinions are gathered.

DA>   I was also able to sit in on part of the NFB Board
 DA> meeting this past Thanksgiving and I can assure you that things
 DA> were debated vigorously and thoroughly.

Again, I am unsurprised that such debate does take place behind closed
doors at such a high level.  Of *course* it does.  Cloning hasn't been
perfected yet and so people are bound to have some differences of
opinion.  It's the level at which it seems to occur (and, again, I say
"seems", as I have only second-hand perceptions to base mine upon) which
would concern me.

 DA> You as an employee of Telesensory can't say or do what you want
 DA> without impunity.  It is the same for the NFB or any other
 DA> organization.

oops. a coupla points here:

1. I'm not an employee of TeleSensory these days. I quit my job there at
the beginning of the year.

2. I don't think of a corporation and an interest group/consumer
organization in the same way at all.  To keep one's job, in many
organizations, it is true that one must "toe the party line" in public
(and sometimes in private, too.)  But that is no longer as true as it
once was.  More enlightened companies are listening closely to their
employee's criticisms; especially those of the "front-line" folks who
meet the customers face-to-face.

It is in the interest of the company to maintain a policy prohibiting
public criticism of the company.  it is not done because it is in the
interest of the employees, per sae. (though it could be argued that what
is in the interest of the company is in the interest of the employees,
this argument will only go so far when you consider that the company may
not *know* its best interests.)

But should a non-commercial, non-corporate  organization have a "best
interest" separate from the best interest of its members, in the same way
a corporation does?  I thought the organization *was* its members. "of"
the blind and all that.

The "members" of a company are its stockholders.  The "members" of an
organization are, presumably, everyone who pays their dues.

                                                 --Carla

... Read what I mean, not what I write!

--
Uucp: ..!uunet!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!89.0!Carla.Campbell
Internet: Carla.Campbell@p0.f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org




------



Subject: Re: Spanish
From: Carla.Campbell@p0.f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Carla Campbell)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:129/89.0 - BlinkLink, Pittsburgh PA


[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

 BB> you know if most of the grade two braille contractions mean the
 BB> equivalent word in other languages, such as Spanish?

No, they do not.  The grade 2 contractions are used differently in
different languages, representing the most commonly-used character
combinations and words, as they (mostly) do in English.   There would be
little use, for example, in "wasting" a symbol on a letter combination
which is not used in a language.  Also, since many of the whole-word
symbols (there's a word for those... waht is it?) do not start with the
same letter in other languages, they would not "make sense" if they
meant the same thing in those languages. ("Gd", for example, would not
make a lot of sense as the abbreviation for "bien.")  Some of the grade
2 symbols stand for accented letters when six-dot Braille is used (in
eight-dot Braille, these characters are handled differently.)

... Read what I mean, not what I write!

--
Uucp: ..!uunet!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!89.0!Carla.Campbell
Internet: Carla.Campbell@p0.f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org




------



Subject: Re: WP Office help
From: Carla.Campbell@p0.f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Carla Campbell)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:129/89.0 - BlinkLink, Pittsburgh PA


[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

 WS>      What does slash nk do?

The command "WP /NK" when used to start WordPerfect causes WP to write
everything through BIOS.   I mean everything-- your input, the entire
status line... Everything.

That's how many speech programs used to make WP speak: they'd create
silent windows which covered the first 24 lines of the screen and one
which blocked off the last partof the status line and run WP with the
"/nk" command line option.  WP's status line (the first part with the
"Save Document?", "SRCH" and other such prompts and information) would
speak, since it was not silenced.  Input and the "Pg/Ln/Pos" information
would be silent, except when responding to the speech program's commands
(arrow keys, window reading, etc.)

Since the advent of monitored windows, the /nk switch has lost its
usefulness in most cases.

... Read what I mean, not what I write!

--
Uucp: ..!uunet!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!89.0!Carla.Campbell
Internet: Carla.Campbell@p0.f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org




------



Subject: Re: nfb bbs censorship??
From: Carla.Campbell@p0.f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Carla Campbell)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:129/89.0 - BlinkLink, Pittsburgh PA


[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

 WS>      Carla, if you don't join any organization of the blind,
 WS>      then how do you know that your opinions would not be
 WS>  respected?

I have been a member of one of the organizations, albeit breifly.  I did
not feel that I, or the local group was accomplishing enough to warrant
the time and effort it took to participate.  I felt that my voice could
be heard more clearly when I spoke alone, for myself.

Just because I do not consider that either of the organizations
represents my views or needs does not mean that I do not express my
views and needs in other ways.  True, it would be a more powerful
expression with the strength of numbers behind it, but as it is, I feel
that the energy I have available to spend on blindness issues
accomplishes more in the way of getting *my* opinions heard than would
that same energy if I spent it with one of the organizations.  I am one
voice, but I am one voice speaking my own words.

I would feel very differently about it if I were not active as an
individual.  I do not like the notion of taking a free ride on the
efforts of others any more than you do.  I certainly appreciate the
countless hours and abundant energy which has gone into legislation and
PR -- the work done by both of the major organizations in the past--
from which I now benefit.  (As you noted, for example, I have only been
using a dog guide for nine years-- well I know that it was once far more
challenging than it now is, however.) I have done my reading and my
talking and my listening.

That work was not done, however, for my gratitude, nor was it
undertaken with a view to "paying" others to undertake different causes
down the road.  It was done to accomplish what it accomplished.  No, we
cannot allow that hard work to go to waste-- but by using the freedoms
it gave us and by vigorously defending them as an individual, I feel
that I am paying as much as would be expected of me by most of the
people who fought for what I consider to be my "rights" today.

I do appreciate waht has been done for me by others. That doesn't mean,
however, that I feel that the work being done today by the organizations
is as meaningful to me as the work which was done in the past.

I do rather resent your painting an image of me as a thankless young
person (I'm twenty-seven, for the record), riding on the accomplishments
of others.  I owe the people who paved my way a great deal of thanks,
but nothing more.  I do not owe them a life of commitment to whatever
causes they now hold holy if those are not my causes. Rather, I choose
to respect them and their actions by appreciating them, and enjoying the
freedom which they intended to gain for me as well as for themselves in
their struggles.  I put much energy into maintaining the freedom for
which others fought, as well-- using that freedom responsibly and
productively.

I write letters, educate people I meet about my abilities and do my best
to let them know that I mean to represent only myself in these actions--
that not all blind people are like me; not all of us want or need the
same things I want (and more often do *not* want) and need and not all
of us like to be treated the way I like to be treated...  I am
persistant and diplomatic in reminding people of my abilities and my
rights and my humanity.

 WS> If you all don't wake up, and after some of us older people
 WS> pass away, things could go back to where they were fifty and
 WS> sixty years ago.  It is a lot easier to keep it than to have to
 WS> win it back.

YOur point is well taken.  I repeat that I do not believe, however, that
this is what either of the two major organizations are currently
*doing*.  Simply adding my voice to a chorus of "yes"s will not uphold
the results of your battles if that is not what is being *done*.  True:
if I wante dto spend a lifetime, many hours a day/week, I might be able
to make a change in an organization such that it was fighting what I
think to be the important battles.  But remind me, here, if you would,
who was supposed to benefit from the efforts of people in the past to
make it easier for me to simply live my life, blind or not?

Not Everyone should have to be politicians. Otherwise, whom do the
politicians fight for?  Some people enjoy it. I do not.

Much as I always say anyone who does not vote has little cause to
complain about election results, I do not feel that the person who does
not run for office must therefore remain silent about the issues.  I
"vote" on the issues as an individual.  My vote is not, perhaps all that
important, but I feel that it would be lost as a mere number if I pooled
it with those of others who believe things which I do not.

The things which I feel to be the important issues today (employment,
equal access to education, public perceptions and attitudes) are either
not being actively addressed by the organizations or are being addressed
in ways which I believe to be either counter-productive or
inappropriate.  To return to the dog guide example: I certainly would
have put my energy into promoting freedom of access to public places for
dog guide users.  But, just as I would not have dedicated myself to a
movement to allow dog guides to sit in airplane seats or eat at
restraunt tables or which would have required that public facilities
provide kennels for them to be kept in outside, I will not put my energy
into promoting what I feel are often unwise or ineffectual  policies,
today.

                                                 --Carla

... Read what I mean, not what I write!

--
Uucp: ..!uunet!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!89.0!Carla.Campbell
Internet: Carla.Campbell@p0.f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org




------






                                ******

                  End of Issue # 2834 of the Handicap Digest

                                ******
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU