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Date:         Sat, 2 Jan 1993 11:34:06 HST
From:         Len Howard <tas@PEGASUS.COM>
Subject:      Re: contributions
              11:35am)

Scott, your position is not only common but admirable.  The only
problem is that it is unrealistic.  We exist in the world.  Insurance
payments must be made on the church, and health insurance for the
clergy and staff, utility bills have to be paid, the organist paid,
the rector's car paid for, and on and on.  I can assure you from
experience on the vestry, that money (or lack of it) is one of the
major concerns of the church.  We do not discuss who gives what, in
fact the only figure I know is what I give, and what the average gift
and the highest gift is.  This comes from the computer printout.  All
else is privileged information known only to the stewardship chairman,
the treasurer and the rector.  But they MUST be aware of this.  Often
the first sign a rector gets that a family is having some sort of
trouble is that they stop paying their pledge on Sunday.  Nobody is
denied care because they don't pay, either.  But you have to become a
bit more realistic in your approach to stewardship.
Shalom,                      Len Howard
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Date:         Tue, 29 Dec 1992 09:49:02 -0700
From:         "Gordon C. Zaft" <zaft@CARITAS.COTDAZR.ORG>
Subject:      Re: My Christmas day with Geralod

[Err, sorry for the typo in the subject]

I, too, wound up seeing most of the Geraldo show that day, purely by
accident.

        I thought it was reasonably good.  I was pleased in particular
that the deacon who was on the show was careful to state that he was
not speaking for the Church.

GZ

--
* Gordon Zaft     Argus Consulting  4500 E. Sunrise #N-6, Tucson, AZ 85718
* zaft@caritas.cotdazr.org | noao.edu!coyote!caritas!zaft
                 Semper fidelis Christi et Vicarii sui.
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From: jbuffer@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (James J Buffer)
Subject: Re: Marrying a divorcee
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 01:23:44 GMT

In article <CATHOLIC%92122111205127@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU> esler@apollo.hp.com writ
es:
>I have some questions about canon law as it applies to the situation
>of a Catholic who wishes to marry a divorcee.  Can anyone tell me what
>the Church law is regarding to the following situations:
>
>A (never married) Catholic seeks to marry a divorcee who:
>
>        1. Is also Catholic and whose previous marriage was in the
>           Catholic Church.
Marriage is not possible unless the marriage can be shown to have been invalid 
from the beginning because of lack of consent, lack of due discretion, etc.
>
>        2. Is also Catholic and whose previous marriage was NOT in the
>           Catholic Church.
Generally, this is not a problem since the marriage is probably invalid due to 
lack of form. Catholics who have not left the Church by a positive act are 
bound to be married according to the form of the Catholic Church (in the 
presence of a priest or deacon with two witnesss). You'd need to obtain a 
declaration from the Marriage Tribunal that the previous "marriage" was 
invalid.>

>        3. Is non-Catholic and whose previous marriage was in the
>           Catholic Church.
>
Probably similar to #1, above.
>        4. Is non-Catholic and whose previous marriage was NOT in the
>           Catholic Church.
Depends. 

The Church presumes in favor of validity; that is, marriages are presumed to be 
valid unless it can be proven otherwise. This includes marriage of 
non-Catholics.
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Date:         Sun, 3 Jan 1993 00:58:15 -0700
From:         "Gordon C. Zaft" <zaft@CARITAS.COTDAZR.ORG>
Subject:      Re: Contributions

On Jan 2, 11:35am, J Scott Berg wrote:
} Subject: Re: contributions
} In a message of Thu, 31 Dec 92 20:16:36 GMT Fred Rump from home writes:
}
} > I'm so glad to see this. Way back in the early seventies the pastor of Our
} > Lady of Calvary church here in Phila, told me that he wanted a 10 year
} > contribution history in his computer records. I asked him why. His answer
 was
} > that if any member ever comes to him for help, he will not even ask why if
 he
} > can see that this person helped the parish on a regular basis over time. He
} > said he doesn't think he has the right to ask why the need for help when
 that
} > person never asked him to explain what he was donating money for.
} >
}
} I personally find these sorts of practices objectionable.  It seems to
} go directly against the principle that you should not give based on
} the benefits/praise that you expect to get from those around you.
} Jesus seems to spend a lot of time picking on the Pharasees because
} they do things that are inherently good for the praise that they will
} get from those who see them doing it.
}-- End of excerpt from J Scott Berg

Scott,
        I think you may be reading more into this than is there.  If
I understood what was said, the point wasn't that those who didn't
give wouldn't receive -- that wasn't it at all!  The point was that
the pastor wouldn't even ask WHY if the person had been giving to
the parish on a regular basis.  As I understand it, someone who hadn't
been giving would still probably receive aid but would be asked why
they needed it.
        In any case, paying by check is much more convenient for me
since it's easier to keep track of and thus deduct from my taxes.  I
just wish parishes could go to a 'direct-deposit' sort of scheme which
would get away from writing checks at all (maybe a little 'advice of
deposit' sort of slip could be deposited in the collection basket).

GZ

--
* Gordon Zaft     Argus Consulting  4500 E. Sunrise #N-6, Tucson, AZ 85718
* zaft@caritas.cotdazr.org | noao.edu!coyote!caritas!zaft
                 Semper fidelis Christi et Vicarii sui.
From: zerucha@shell.portal.com (Thomas E Zerucha)
Subject: Re: contributions
Keywords: money
Organization: Portal Communications Company -- 408/973-9111 (voice) 408/973-8091 (data)
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 03:34:56 GMT

To preempt some of the comments, and this may vary where you are, there are
certain policies in our dioscese that makes things less simple.  First, a
certain amount, I think it is percentage, of collections goes to the dioscese.
I can't withold the portion that goes to the dioscese.  They also have "quotas"
based on the average income of the parish (geographically).  I think it may
only apply to special collections like Peter's Pence, but the parishes are
expected to make up any shortfall out of regular sources.

For myself, I vote with my feet.  I cross dioscesean lines.  I give minimally
$20 in the collection.  (When I was in a choir I would spend time and money on
music and other supplies).  If there are supplemental collections, I give
generously.  And I donate directly to various other Catholic programs.

If they would do something to show me that I could feel comfortable attending
mass and contributing to my local parish I would be happy to come back.  I pray
for that to happen.  I have shed tears over the backsliding.  But until the
authorities decide to do something about the desertification I will not plant
seed.

(And the long drives gives me a chance to listen to catholic audio tapes in
my car, so perhaps it is a blessing in disguise).

---
zerucha@shell.portal.com - main email address
zerucha@fim001.ets.ford.com - work address
Thomas Zerucha / 24075 Lee Baker / Southfield MI 48075 - hardcopy
(313)594-4941 - work phone
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Date:         Thu, 24 Dec 1992 11:13:30 +0100
From:         Jean-Gerard Pailloncy <Jean-Gerard.Pailloncy@ENS.ENS-LYON.FR>
Subject:      Question About OR

        What is the Operation Rescue?

Geepie (France)
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Date:         Mon, 21 Dec 1992 14:05:21 -0500
From:         URSIC@ASTRO.CS.HH.AB.COM
Subject:      Re: Myth exposed!!!

Stephen Barr <15942@BRAHMS.UDEL.EDU> writes:
>       Dear JJ. Stories that make the Papacy the object of
>ridicule are not funny, and are worth exposing. I don't
>know why you regard religion as not a subject to be
>discussed seriously. As Chesterton observed, one does not have
>to be solemn to be serious. One can make a serious point
>in a humorous way. But frankly I do see what is admirable
                                  ^^
>about treating the most serious questions with frivolity.

I assume you meant "don't" above:-) ...and I guess I see the
most serious questions having valid solutions which are quite
the opposite of themselves individually (like a square root:-).
Whose Religion is right, whose politics, whose sex? ...and I
guess I get too suspicious when someone waves their answer
as the only "truth".

>    Frankly I don't care much what you think of all this, but there
>are other people who are reading these things. The kind of
>savaging that some liberals and Democrats are giving and have
>given my brother is a source of pain to me and to my family.
>I trust you were not indulging in a "dig" at me, or a cruel
>witticism. SOME THINGS ARE SERIOUS, GODDAMN IT, AND PEOPLE'S
>REPUTATIONS ARE AMONG THEM, whether my brother's or far
>more importantly that of the Popes.

Twas the Safire article I read (now that you mentioned his name). I don't
normally pay attention to many "XXX"gate articles, but the Barr name caught
my eye while scanning the paper. I suppose since it obviously causes you
a lot pain to recount, I probably shouldn't have brought it up, and I guess
your response indicates whether one ever gets used to negative press.
No, it wasn't meant as a dig, perhaps insensitve curiosity, but you should
know I'm an expert only at putting my foot in my mouth:-)
...but if it makes you feel better, as a representative of a liberal
Democrat, you can vent any anger on me:-) -J.J.
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Date:         Mon, 21 Dec 1992 01:02:02 -0700
From:         "Gordon C. Zaft" <zaft@CARITAS.COTDAZR.ORG>
Subject:      OR book reference

The book about Operation Rescue that I mentioned in an earlier post is:

        Operation Rescue: A Challenge to the Nation's Conscience
        Philip Lawler.  Our Sunday Visitor Press.  $5.95  506 pp

        Books may be ordered from OSV by calling (800) 348-2440, or
writing:

        Our Sunday Visitor
        200 Noll Plaza
        Huntington, IN  46750

GZ

--
* Gordon Zaft     Argus Consulting  4500 E. Sunrise #N-6, Tucson, AZ 85718
* zaft@caritas.cotdazr.org | noao.edu!coyote!caritas!zaft
                 Semper fidelis Christi et Vicarii sui.
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Organization: The American University
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Date:         Tue, 22 Dec 1992 15:03:28 EST
From:         Jim McIntosh <JIM@AMERICAN.EDU>
Subject:      Re: lay associates to holy orders
              14 Dec 1992 18:30:18 GMT from <mjsmith@CAC.WASHINGTON.EDU>

On Mon, 14 Dec 1992 18:30:18 GMT Martha Smith said:
>The Sisters of the Holy Family (Bay area) have a program of lay
>associates (both genders) who go through a year's formation (phone
>calls/ weekends etc) and then make commitments (for a year at a time, I
>believe) to religious service. During that year the associates maintain
>certain ties to the community of professed sisters. It is an interesting
>blend of lay and religious life - very appropriate to our time, I
>believe. Does anyone know of other similar programs?

Well, there's the Secular Franciscan Order -- a lay religious order. The
SFO is both a canonically recognized religious order, with a rule of life
approved by the Pope, and at the same time it is a religious order
composed of lay men and women. We are people who want to live the Gospels
in the way of St. Francis of Assisi, and who are called to live in the
world as lay people. We believe that Francis's total acceptance of the
Gospel Life is a message of importance to today's world.

If you are interested you should try and find a fraternity in your area.
You would go through a period of getting to know the order, followed by
at least a year of formation. Following this, if both you and the order
agreed you should, you would profess to follow the Rule for the rest of
your life.

For more information the following files are available via anonymous ftp
from ftp.american.edu: sfo.intro and sfo.rule, or you can send the
commands "GET SFO INTRO" and "GET SFO RULE" in the body of a piece of
e-mail to listserv@american.edu. If you have any specific questions, feel
free to write me at the address below.

Jim McIntosh, SFO (jim@american.edu)
The American University
Washington DC 20016-8019 USA
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From: zerucha@shell.portal.com (Thomas E Zerucha)
Subject: Re: R-movies in parochial school?
Organization: Portal Communications Company -- 408/973-9111 (voice) 408/973-8091 (data)
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 22:43:41 GMT

At least in movie houses, the R rating is supposed to prevent anyone under 17
from seeing the film without parental permission.  I think that should be
sufficient to REQUIRE parental permission in school.  I would press your case
and see if other parents have the same problem (to prevent each of 10 parents
being told "you're the only ones who complained").  Unfortunately, many
catholic institutions, including the schools, are picking up novel and trendy
fads and presenting them as state of the art instead of admitting they are
running experiments with unproven methods.  Parochial schools are rapidly
trying to out-innovate the public schools.  So in many cases the idea of
vouchers is actually moot.  If it is legal, the best course is home schooling.

---
zerucha@shell.portal.com - main email address
zerucha@fim001.ets.ford.com - work address
Thomas Zerucha / 24075 Lee Baker / Southfield MI 48075 - hardcopy
(313)594-4941 - work phone
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Date:         Fri, 1 Jan 1993 05:38:55 -0500
From:         mayo@CS.UTK.EDU
Subject:      "One Bread, One Body", Jan 2

                    Saturday, January 2, 1993
                           Saint Basil
                    Saint Gregory Nazianzen

I John 2:22-28              Psalm 98            John 1:19-28

                            TOMORROW

"Remain in Him as that anointing taught you." --I John 2:27

Tomorrow in our country we celebrate the Epiphany.  Most of the world considers
this the pinnacle of the Christmas season.  Tomorrow can be one of the greatest
 days of our lives because we may receive a much more powerful anointing from
the Holy Spirit.

We received the Spirit at our baptism and confirmation.  Therefore, we have
the anointing of the Spirit in our hearts (I Jn 2:27).  However, the Spirit
can be much more active in our lives.  Even the most "Spirit-filled" person
may be severely stifling the Holy Spirit (see I Thes 5:19; Eph 4:30).  If we
let the Spirit work freely in our lives, we'd be shocked by god's love and
power.

Tomorrow can be the day we let the Christmas Spirit, the Third Person of the
Trinity, give us a new Pentecost.  Then, with the wise men and women of all
times, we will be Jesus' witness even to the ends of the earth (Acts 1:8).
If we open our hearts and receive the full anointing of the Spirit, this
Christmas season will not be a mere diversion but a catalyst for leading
millions to Jesus.  May Epiphany be Pentecost.


Prayer:  Jesus, with the wise men, I prostrate myself before You and give You
         my life.  (Mt 2:2)

Promise: "Make straight the way of the Lord!" --Jn 1:23

Praise:  By the power of the Holy Spirit, St. Basil protected his diocese
         from heresy.
-----
From "One Bread, One Body", reproduced with permission.
 Nihil Obstat: Rev. Edward J. Gratsch
 Imprimatur:  +Most Rev. James H. Garland, V.G.
               Archdiocese of Cincinnati, August 17, 1992.
From: elendil@seashell.mintir.new-orleans.la.us (Edward J. Branley)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Re: Operation Rescue
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 92 08:28:47 CST
Organization: Seashell Software

Marty Helgesen <MNHCC@CUNYVM.BITNET> writes:

> In article <kom6VB2w165w@seashell.mintir.new-orleans.la.us>,
> elendil@seashell.mintir.new-orleans.la.us (Edward J. Branley) says:
>       <<Stuff omitted>>
> >Well, you can always build a kill file.  I stand by my statement.  Randall
> >Terry and Operation Rescue are pursuing a criminal path to stop what they fe
> >to be a crime.  This is a case where two wrongs do not make a right.
> >
> >
> >
> >|Edward J. Branley         elendil@mintir.new-orleans.la.us|
> >|Seashell Software, Metairie, LA            +1-504-455-5087|
>
> The abolitionists who operated the Underground Railroad broke the
> fugitive slave laws, and probably a bunch of other laws, too.
> Were they wrong to do so?
>

Well, Marty, I'll answer your baiting question with another:  was John Brown
right to commit acts of violence and to kill to further the abolitionist cause?

Have you read any of my posts?  I thought I had made it clear that I object to
Operation Rescue's use of violence to further their cause.  I apologize that I
have not made that clearer to you, since you would not be trying to bait me
with such comparisons if you understood my position.



|Edward J. Branley         elendil@mintir.new-orleans.la.us|
|Seashell Software, Metairie, LA            +1-504-455-5087|
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Date:         Wed, 23 Dec 1992 12:49:23 -0700
From:         "Gordon C. Zaft" <zaft@CARITAS.COTDAZR.ORG>
Subject:      Re: Operation Rescue

On Dec 22,  8:28am, "Edward J. Branley" wrote:
} Subject: Re: Operation Rescue
} Have you read any of my posts?  I thought I had made it clear that I object to
} Operation Rescue's use of violence to further their cause.  I apologize that I
} have not made that clearer to you, since you would not be trying to bait me
} with such comparisons if you understood my position.
}
}-- End of excerpt from "Edward J. Branley"

Ed, no one is defending the use of violence here.  OR members are pledged
to be nonviolent ( I will type in a copy of the pledge OR participants
are supposed to sign later).  If there has been violence by OR participants
at OR rescues, such violence is not approved of, encouraged, or condoned
by OR.

GZ

--
* Gordon Zaft     Argus Consulting  4500 E. Sunrise #N-6, Tucson, AZ 85718
* zaft@caritas.cotdazr.org | noao.edu!coyote!caritas!zaft
                 Semper fidelis Christi et Vicarii sui.
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Date:         Thu, 24 Dec 1992 10:58:12 -0500
From:         mayo@CS.UTK.EDU
Subject:      "One Bread, One Body", Dec. 27

                    Sunday, December 27, 1992
                    Feast of the Holy Family

Sirach 3:2-6, 12-14                             Psalm 128
Colossians 3:12-21                              Matthew 2:13-15, 19-23

                        PROBLEM-PARENTING

"He who honors his father atones for sins; he stores up riches who reveres
 his mother." --Sirach 3:3-4

Many people did not have good relationships in their youth with their fathers
and mothers.  They may have come from broken homes and/or suffered abuse or
neglect.  So few have been rightly parented that, if you are one of them,
stop reading this book and thank the Lord, for you have been truly blessed.
In contrast, those who have had less than ideal relationships with their
parents should:

    1. REPENT.  Don't look at the speck in your parents' eyes but at the plank
         in your own (Mt 7:5).  Go to Confession.

    2. FORGIVE.  Ask Jesus to give you the miracle of forgiveness for your
         parents (see Col 3:13).

    3. REACH OUT.  If possible, try to spend more time with your parents.
         Make the best of even the most difficult situations.

    4. PRAY.  Try to pray, not only _for_ your parents, but _with_ them.
         Even if you only pray an "Our Father" together, the Lord will use
         your prayer to bring reconciliation and healing.  If your parents
         are dead, pray for them and/or ask them to pray for you.

    5. ACCEPT HELP.  Everyone needs to be parented.  If you have not been
         fully parented, the Lord will send father-figures and motherly
         people into your life.  Accept God working through these people.


Prayer:  Father, complete my parenting.  Make me holy in my family.

Promise: "You children, obey your parents in everything as the acceptable
          way in the Lord.  And fathers, do not nag your children lest they
          lose heart." --Col 3:20-21

Praise:  Alleluia!  Praise Jesus the Christ Child!
-----
From "One Bread, One Body", reproduced with permission.
Nihil Obstat: Rev. Edward J. Gratsch
Imprimatur:  +Most Rev. James H. Garland, V.G.
              Archdiocese of Cincinnati, August 17, 1992.
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Fri, 1 Jan 1993 05:39:44 -0500
From:         mayo@CS.UTK.EDU
Subject:      Bread, One Body", Jan 3

                    Sunday, January 3, 1993
                            Epiphany

Isaiah 60:1-6                                   Psalm 72
Ephesians 3:2-3, 5-6                            Matthew  2:1-12

            SEEING IN THE DARK AND RISING IN THE LIGHT

"Nations shall walk by Your light, and the kings by Your shining radiance."
 --Isaiah 60:3

On this feast of Epiphany, the Lord commands us to "rise up in splendor"
(Is 60:1).  He has come into our lives, given us a new nature, and loved us
tenderly this Christmas season.  Considering all the Lord has done for us
and seeing the darkness that covers most of the earth (Is 60:2), we must
rise up to carry the light of Jesus.  We must not only follow the wise men
and women as they follow the star to Christ, but also follow them as they
take the gospel to the nations.

Rise up and witness for Jesus (Acts 1:8).  Rise up and make disciples of all
nations (Mt 28:19).  Begin with your family, friends, co-workers, and
neighbors.  Then reach out to your city, country, and world.  Rise up in the
splendor of evangelization. Put the gold of your possessions, the frankincense
of your prayer (see Rev 5:8), and the myrrh of your suffering at the feet of
Jesus for the spread of the gospel.

If you have a new nature in Jesus, you must rise up.  If you can see in the
dark, you must rise up.  Put every detail of your life at the service of
world evangelization.  See in the dark; rise in the light!


Prayer:  Father, make every part of my body and every detail of my life
         instruments for righteousness (see Rm 6:13).

Promise: "They prostrated themselves and did Him homage.  Then they opened
          their coffers and presented Him with gifts of gold, frankincense,
          and myrrh." --Mt 2:11

Praise:  Alleluia!  I prostrate myself before You Jesus.  You are the King of
         kings and Lord of lords.  Alleluia!
-----
From "One Bread, One Body", reproduced with permission.
 Nihil Obstat: Rev. Edward J. Gratsch
 Imprimatur:  +Most Rev. James H. Garland, V.G.
               Archdiocese of Cincinnati, August 17, 1992.
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