HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jsvrc@rc.rit.edu (J A Stephen Viggiano)
Subject: Re: Liquid fueled model rocket
Organization: RIT Research Corp
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1992 17:17:51 GMT

In article <6623@transfer.stratus.com> cdt@sw.stratus.com (C. D. Tavares) writes about the Vashon / Estes Cold Power line:

>Let's not be historical revisionists, no matter how politically correct.
>This product line died out long before anybody ever heard about holes in
>the ozone, and for a much better reason -- they stunk, and they didn't sell.

Yes, they stunk. (Point well taken; no argument from me.) As I mentioned,
difluorodichloromethane (AKA Freon (R) 12) has a specific impulse somewhere
between small and nonexistent. Let's see: the fuel came in a 15 ounce (ca 4
Newton) can, and you could get about five (let me know if I'm being optimistic)
flights out of one can. That's 1,25 N of propellant to produce an impulse of
5 N-sec, so the specific impulse of the stuff is a whopping 4 seconds. Compare
this figure to that of ca. 80 seconds for Black Powder, and ca. 200 seconds
for Composite, and ca. 440 seconds for the LH2-LOX propellant for the Space
Shuttle's main engines.

In layman's terms, they stunk.

But, historical revisionism??? Political Corectness??? Moi??? Never!!! I must
protest this assult upon my character!!! And, as anybody who knows me will
tell you, I am indeed a character.

Perhaps the line lived for a little longer in New Jersey than it did in Texas,
which, I believe, is where CD was at the time, because of the regulations. And,
sure, the things stunk and everybody knew it, but they did seem to hang on
until the beginning of the great CFC scare, which was about '74. No, there
weren't any holes in the ozone layer at the time, and we thought the people
talking about the inevitability of same were like Chicken Little telling us
the sky was falling, (they were saying the same things about the SST Concorde
just a few years before), but the CFC scare did seem to be a final nail in
the coffin for cold power, at least in New Jersey.
From: pfeiffer@nmsu.edu (Joe Pfeiffer)
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
Subject: Re: Cox rockets?
Date: 5 Oct 92 15:35:29 GMT
	<19920923104807.Roger.Wilfong@umich.edu>
	<LARRY.92Sep24100015@peak.psl.nmsu.edu> <BvGF7K.AMA@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>
Organization: NMSU Computer Science

In article <BvGF7K.AMA@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> ntaib@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Iskandar Taib) writes:

   If there was one thing worse than a Cox plastic C/L ship, the 
   Testors McCoys were it. I remember someone brought a little
   Sopwith Camel  once. It was about peanut scale size - 12-14" 
   span and had a Testors McCoy .049 in the nose. The control han-
   dle had two holes where your fingers went. We got the thing 
   started, and it just sat there on the concrete, not even taxi-
   ing.

Geez, I'd completely forgotten that one.  You got the engine started?
That's better than I ever did...

-Joe.
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
From: <Roger.Wilfong@umich.edu>  (Roger Wilfong)
Subject: Re: Working SRB's - Take 2
Organization: UofM Hospitals
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 16:52:00 GMT

In Article <BvCLv0.AAr@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> "ntaib@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Iskandar Taib)" says:
> In article <1992Sep18.144734.390@HQ.Ileaf.COM> hal@HQ.Ileaf.COM (Hal Wadleigh) writes:
> 
> >It was a very impressive demo rocket--especially
> >with magenta tempura in the chutes for good smoke puffs.
>               ^^^^^^^
> 
> I don't get it.. deep fried beets hanging from a parachute?  9-)
> 
They have to be deep fried - the ASPCA gets mad if we fly live biological 
payloads.
From: tim@nebula.key.amdahl.com (Tim Nicholls)
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
Subject: Robert H. Goddard - Born 110 Years Ago Today
Date: 5 Oct 92 19:25:43 GMT
Reply-To: tim@nebula.key.amdahl.com
Organization: Amdahl


	On this date (October 5) in 1882, Robert Hutchings Goddard was
    born in Worcester, Massachusetts (about eighty kilometers west of
    Boston).  Goddard launched the world's first liquid-fueled rocket
    in March of 1926 in Auburn, MA, along with many other contributions 
    to the development of modern rocketry.  Goddard died in August of 
    1945.


Tim
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
From: jsivier@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Jonathon Sivier )
Subject: rule of thumb for launch angle
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 15:00:12 GMT

>> In article <1992Sep28.045902.10967@cs.umb.edu>, mrubin@ra.cs.umb.edu (Mark Rubin) writes...

[stuff about parachutes deleted]

>> >Any help would be greatly appreciated along with any tips on judging
>> >the wind and how far the rocket should be angled into it - as well
>> >as predicting where the rocket may land.

    A rule of thumb that I have been using with some success is to adjust the
launch angle depending on the speed of the rocket relative to the speed of the
prevailing wind.  I use a simulation program to predict the maximum velocity
of the rocket and a pocket wind speed guage to get an idea of the curren
wind speed.  If the velocity of the rocket is sufficiently greater than the
wind speed (I've been using a factor of 10), then the rocket will not weather
cock very much at all since the relative wind will be nearly parallel to the
rockets flight path.  In this case you may want to angle the rocket into the
wind.  If the rockets speed is low it will weather cock noticably, so don't
angle it into the wind, launch it straight up, it will angle into the wind on
it's own.

    So far I have only used this to determine whether to angle the launch or
not.  It should be possible to work out a table which would tell you what angle
to launch at depending on the relationship between the rockets velocity and the
wind speed.  I'll give it some thought.

Jonathan

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jonathan Sivier               |  Secretary, Central Illinois Aerospace |
|  jsivier@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu      |  NAR #56437                            |
|  Flight Simulation Lab         |  Tripoli #1906
|  Beckman Institute             |  Home Address:                         |
|  405 N. Mathews                |    5 The Summit                        |
|  Urbana, IL  61801             |    Champaign, IL 61820                 |
|  217/244-1923                  |    217/359-8225                        |
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: hack@arabia.uucp (Edmund Hack)
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
Subject: NAR Competition: HELP!
Date: 5 Oct 92 16:34:41 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Lockheed ESC, Houston

I have volunteered to plan and coordinate some competiton for the NAR
section here in Houston.  I am planning on running 2 meets next calendar
year (probably in April and September or November). I need pointers on
who I contact to get all the paperwork set up with the NAR. These will
probably be "Open" meets so we can include the Dallas Section and any
others in Texas.


Thanks!

By the way, my first cut at the April meet is the following:

Open Spot Landing (easy for kids - lots of families in our club)
A Parachute Duration (easy to fly, we have a big field.)
B Helicopter Duration (This may be controversial.)
B Streamer Duration (Again, easy for kids.)
B Boost Glide (I love B/Gs. Any event I run will have B/G.)
D Eggloft Duration (replace B/G with eggloft in above statement.)

No altitude events due to lack of tracking comm equipment and experience in
the club. I hope to get someone to locate the club's tracking equipment
and set it up for the meet for practice. I also wanted to fly "easy"
events that we could use to ease back into competition.  We have a big
field here (at JSC, where NARAM has been), but I wanted to keep the
events on the "small" side to limit recovery problems.  No sub-A events
as a method of placating some of the "all rockets must be big" guys. I
also avoided scale this time due to judging, I don't want to have any more 
hassles than necessary. In any case, I doubt I'd have anything but sport
scale at our meets.
-- 
    Edmund Hack - Lockheed Engineering & Sciences Co. - Houston, TX
  hack@aio.jsc.nasa.gov - I speak only for myself, unless blah, blah..
   Papoon for President - You Know He's Not Insane! - Endorsed by the
  American Friends of the Martian Space Party, League of Winged Voters
From: cdt@sw.stratus.com (C. D. Tavares)
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
Subject: Re: NARAM SUMMARY????
Date: 5 Oct 92 17:33:20 GMT
Organization: Stratus Computer, Inc.

In article <19921002165451.Roger.Wilfong@umich.edu>, Roger.Wilfong@umich.edu writes:
> > 1/4A Parachute Duration Multi-Round, to be changed to 1/2A if 1/4A's
> >                go off the market.
> > 1/2A Streamer Duration Multi-Round
> I hope the contest board changes these two events.

> > 1/2A Cluster Altitude (provisional event)
> I assume that this will be changed if Apogee's 1/4A's are unavailable.

> > A Payload
> Not a bad choice for a small field, but judging from NARAM-33, they better 
> order multiples of the trophies.  There will be a lot of ties.

> > D Dual Egg Lofting Duration (provisional event)
> ELA is a better event.

Hey, Roger, YOU want to hold this one?
-- 

cdt@pdp.sw.stratus.com      --If you believe that I speak for my company,
OR cdt@vos.stratus.com        write today for my special Investors' Packet...
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
From: Jim Cook <J.Cook@ENS.Prime.COM>
Subject: Re: parachute 101
Reply-To: <J.Cook@ENS.Prime.COM>
Organization: Prime Computer, Inc.
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 19:37:28 GMT

In article <JASON.92Oct1112816@ab20.larc.nasa.gov> jason@ab20.larc.nasa.gov
(Jason Austin) writes:
>In article <1992Sep30.144200.1539@HQ.Ileaf.COM> hal@HQ.Ileaf.COM (Hal
Wadleigh) writes:
>-> The "3-lobe" shroud line arrangement is, indeed, the best method for making
>-> a minimum of differences in shroud line length in a hex parachute.  When
you
>-> attach the 'chute to the nose cone or swivel clip, put your finger into
each
>-> loop and tug the 'chute from the middle.  This evens out the differences in
>-> shroud length so that your finger is now the middle of each loop.
>-> 
>-> Other hints:
>-> 1. Use fisherman's snap swivels for your attachments.  It lets you store
>->    'chutes separate from rockets and helps prevent fouling due to spin at
>->    deployment.
>
>	This works pretty good as long as you use pretty hefty ones
>for large rockets.  The snap when the chute opens can break small
>ones. 

Personal experience: 

I've never had a small snap swivel break on a small rocket.

On the other hand, on an NCR 1/4 scale Patriot (about 2.5 lbs.), I did "break" 
a mondo snap swivel.  It broke when the ejection/parachute deployment tugged
the wire loop so hard as to pull the free end out of the snap closure, taking
out some of the bends in the wire in the process.

Bottom line: go with what works for you.

Jim
From: leadfoot@bigbootay.sw.stratus.com (Mark Curtis)
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
Subject: Re: Cox rockets?
Date: 1 Oct 92 20:49:38 GMT

In article <BvGF7K.AMA@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>, ntaib@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Iskandar Taib) writes:
|> In article <LARRY.92Sep24100015@peak.psl.nmsu.edu| larry@peak.psl.nmsu.edu (Evil Engineer doin' it the Cowboy Way) writes:
|> 
|> |Which brought up a question for me, too. Can anyone tell me if I am 
|> |wrong or just remembering things from a little kids view? Back in the late
|> 
|> If there was one thing worse than a Cox plastic C/L ship, the 
|> Testors McCoys were it. I remember someone brought a little
|> Sopwith Camel  once. It was about peanut scale size - 12-14" 
|> span and had a Testors McCoy .049 in the nose. The control han-
|> dle had two holes where your fingers went. We got the thing 
|> started, and it just sat there on the concrete, not even taxi-
|> ing.

Same here.  McCoy was bad news.

|> Don't remember - most of the nicer Cox plastic kits are gone. There was a 
|> Miss America P-51, a Stuka, a Spitfire, a Sopwith Camel, a Fokker bipe and 
|> a Rivets Formula 1 that I remember from the early 70s. None of these are 
|> available anymore. They came up with a line of styrofoam planes one year. 
|> And the PT-19 I bought back in 1984 didn;t fly like the one I flew in 19-
|> 74 - the engine seemed weaker since it had those funny twin exhaust ports.

I had one of the new styrofoam planes in 1980 and it flew great!  Well at
least compared to the Rivets and Stuka I had earlier.  The thing flew fast
enough to get real aerodynamic drag on the control lines.  It climbed real
well.  Three feet of take off roll max when tuned properly.  The newer
twin port engines seem to be a noise concession or something.
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
From: salmon@cfht.hawaii.edu (Rick Salmon)
Subject: Drag coefficients for Estes rockets
Organization: University of Hawaii
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 07:11:01 GMT

Does anyone have drag coefficients for Estes model rockets?  Can
a single coeeficent be used at all speeds, does anyone know ?

Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
From: maine@altair.dfrf.nasa.gov (Richard Maine)
Subject: Re: Rogers Aeroscience Programs?
Organization: NASA Dryden, Edwards, Cal.
Distribution: na
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1992 01:29:58 GMT

On Thu, 1 Oct 1992 18:24:53 GMT, hack@arabia.uucp (Edmund Hack) said:

Edmund> I am considering getting the CD/CP/Altitude prediction programs for the
Edmund> IBM PC from Rogers Aeroscience.  Anyone have any comments pro or con?
Edmund> Any pet peeves or kudos for them? Do they produce correct results?

I'd say they are reasonable.  Not great, but they do the job.  His first
release had an abysmal user interface, but it got a complete rework
and is ok now (looks like he brought in somebody else that actually did
work on the user interface, whereas the first release looked like the
typical thing you get from somebody that may know how to code the
algorithms but doesn't know what a user interface is).

I wouldn't trust the transonic drag figures, but that's not the fault of
the program.  I don't much trust any method for transonic drag prediction.
(Note a natural prejudice on my part.  I work in the business of doing
flight data measurements - the fact that predictions are too often
wrong is what makes my job necessary, and that's on "real" airplanes
where millions of $ have been spent on doing the predictions).

Pet peeve.  The current version has obnoxious copy protection.  It puts
junk directories on your hard disk as part of the protection scheme.
This is one of the kinds of protection schemes that make backups useless.
If you ever crash your hard disk, you will have to beg for a new
program disk because the protected stuff won't restore properly
from your backups and the original disk will refuse to install a
second without first "uninstalling" the first one, which you will
no longer be able to do.

I really dislike that kind of copy protection scheme.  Luckily this
one is implemented crudely enough that you can get around it with
the aid of nothing more than a write protect tab and a few judicious
disk swaps - no code hacking required.

--
--
Richard Maine
maine@altair.dfrf.nasa.gov

Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
From: <Roger.Wilfong@umich.edu>  (Roger Wilfong)
Subject: Re: NARAM SUMMARY????
Organization: UofM Hospitals
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1992 20:54:00 GMT

In Article <6974@transfer.stratus.com> "cdt@sw.stratus.com (C. D. Tavares)" says:
> > > > > Next NARAM will be in Fredrick, Maryland.
> 
> I finally found the letter.
> 
> 1/4A Parachute Duration Multi-Round, to be changed to 1/2A if 1/4A's
>                go off the market.
> 1/2A Streamer Duration Multi-Round
I hope the contest board changes these two events.  With 60 second MAXes in 
first three rounds (120 if 1/2A PD) there are going to be a lot of people in
the fourth, fifth and sixth rounds.  (My NARTREK Bronze streamer flight was 
almost a minute with a 1/2A in rotten air using a stock Estes BT-5 model and 
12" of crep.)
   
> 1/2A Cluster Altitude (provisional event)
   
I assume that this will be changed if Apogee's 1/4A's are unavailable.
   
> A Payload
   
Not a bad choice for a small field, but judging from NARAM-33, they better 
order multiples of the trophies.  There will be a lot of ties.
   
> B Helicopter Duration
> B Rocket/Glider
> C Super-Roc Altitude
> D Dual Egg Lofting Duration (provisional event)
The only problem with ELD is that you use a big chute for a long duration.
If you come down fast enough that you break the egg(s), you're probably not
competitive any way.  ELA is a better event.
   
> Sport Scale
> R&D
> 
From: bo@hpfcmgw.FC.HP.COM (Bo Viger)
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 16:35:06 GMT
Subject: Re: Guidance
Organization: HP Fort Collins, CO
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets

>cdt@sw.stratus.com (C. D. Tavares) writes:
>
>In article <1992Sep23.131021.1465@HQ.Ileaf.COM>, hal@HQ.Ileaf.COM (Hal Wadleigh) writes:
>> I noted when I re-entered the hobby a few years ago that the NAR safety code
>> had changed from disallowing "targets on the ground" to disallowing "targets.
>> 
>> Perhaps the "hit the kite" meets were a reason for this change.
>
>I can tell you for sure that it was these meets that focused our attention
>on the loophole.  But we weren't so much worried about people targeting
>kites as things like aircraft (both real and model).

We share a launch site with RC hobbists in an out-of-town (actually, middle-
of-a-wheat-field) "failed" commercial development; read: isolated asphalt
road, no buildings, no trees.

They typically stay around their end of the road, and us around ours. ONE of
those guys, however, insists on flying directly overhead of our launchers
over and over again (4-5 times last Sunday). Now this wheat field's about
1 mile on a side, and we're 1/4 to 1/2 mile away from this dude, but he 
just won't "buzz off"! 

Now we would NEVER seriously consider doing this, but everytime he flys over,
the jokes start to rip like: "Quick, Bo, prep your Phoenix!" or "Hey, Lee,
is that (NCR) Patriot ready to fly, yet?!" and visions of "track, launch,
home and impact" bring big smiles to our faces.....

Bo Viger
Tripoli #1864
From: cdt@sw.stratus.com (C. D. Tavares)
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
Subject: Re: NARAM SUMMARY????
Date: 29 Sep 92 01:56:02 GMT
Organization: Stratus Computer, Inc.

In article <28SEP199215370988@vx.cis.umn.edu>, soc1070 writes:
> In article <6807@transfer.stratus.com>, cdt@sw.stratus.com (C. D. Tavares) writes...

> >Imagine for a moment that you are doing check-in duty.  Some fellow
> >comes up to you flying E Altitude with an E-to-G casing installed in
> >his model.  "It's loaded with an E24, trust me."  Pop quiz: can you 
> >foresee any problems that you don't have today with disposables?

> I would have to look at the charred runes of one of my relaods, but
> there might be a way to tell *after* the model is returned by 
> examining the internals. Maybe the CD could mark the outside of the
> insulating sleeve - that usually comes back pretty much in one piece.

Do you want to assign an expert engine pathologist to working returns
all day?  The S&T Committee has tried to autopsy engines in this fashion,
and we don't believe it can be accurately done.  You also don't want any
"solution" that requires disassembling the engine at check-in, since this
is quite likely to unseat O-rings and tape diaphragms.  We've had this
happen at S&T from simply replacing bad igniters (on many reloads, you
have to insert the nozzle over the tail of the igniter, because the
head won't fit through).
-- 

cdt@pdp.sw.stratus.com      --If you believe that I speak for my company,
OR cdt@vos.stratus.com        write today for my special Investors' Packet...
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
From: billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson)
Subject: Re: Wadding
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 18:11:43 GMT

hack@arabia.uucp (Edmund Hack) writes:
: In all the recent discussion on baffles for ejection charge protection,
: a passing mention was made of using cellulose insulation instead of the
: usual TP wadding, lettuce leaves or fiberglass.  I assume that this is
: just the stuff available in bags at Home Depot/Builder's Square that
: looks like partially digested and dried newspaper?  I'm building my
: first HP rocket (LOC Graduator) and any light and low cost replacement
: for Estes/Quest TP is attractive.

Welcome to HP rocketry.

Yes, that is it. A bag of it will last you for years. It is all I use
any more. 

Bill
From: dmu5391@hertz.njit.edu (david m utidjian esc stnt)
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
Subject: Re: Sunsite ftp archive
Date: 30 Sep 92 16:26:15 GMT
Article-I.D.: njitgw.1992Sep30.162615.15223
Organization: New Jersey Institute of Technology, Newark, N.J.

In article <29SEP199212485588@vx.cis.umn.edu> soc1070 writes:
>Has anyone else had problems with the ftp archive? The first time I 
>uploaded stuff, it went fine. Today I was going to send text files
>of the last Picayune but wouldn't accept the upload.

Yeah I have had problems with sunsite....
I ftp'ed anonymously to sunsite yesterday.... there was nothing
in the uploads directory.
I tried to get some of the programs from the /pub/.../.../r.m.r
directory and was told "permission denied".

There may be stuff there but we can not get it.

There is a bunch of stuff missing from the old archive on calvin,
I will be happy to upload what copies I have, if and when sunsite
becomes funtional.

>Tim Harincar				Kill Your Television.			

David Utidjian
From: hrbob@ixstar.ih.att.com (R.E. Wiersbe)
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
Subject: Prang Film Update
Summary: We are experience technical difficulties, please stand by....
Date: 5 Oct 92 19:37:41 GMT
Article-I.D.: cbfsb.1992Oct5.193741.13189
Distribution: na
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories
Originator: news@cbnewsb.cb.att.com

After numerous attempts to copy "The Prang Film" it has become obvious that
my equipment (and a couple of other people's too) just won't cut it. Bob Kaplow
tells me the tape works fine on his machine, I can't get it to stop rolling
and jumping on the machines I tried. When I find the time I'll go to Bob's and
try it there, and I'll see if I can find a video place that could do it cheap.
(I work with switching systems, not video equipment - which is part of the 
reason this is taking so long.)

Bob Wiersbe 	NAR# 44588	hrbob@ihlpb.att.com
From: cdt@sw.stratus.com (C. D. Tavares)
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
Subject: Re: Drag coefficients for Estes rockets
Date: 30 Sep 92 17:27:10 GMT
Article-I.D.: transfer.6889
Organization: Stratus Computer, Inc.

In article <salmon.717837061@cfht.hawaii.edu>, salmon@cfht.hawaii.edu (Rick Salmon) writes:
> Does anyone have drag coefficients for Estes model rockets?  Can
> a single coeeficent be used at all speeds, does anyone know ?

Not really possible.  The Cd depends heavily on the smoothness of
your finish.  You can easily get a 2x or even 3x reduction on the
same kit, depending how well it's finished and built.  Things like
fin crookedness will also cause it to vary.  But yes, a single Cd
is good for all speeds (it may vary in the supersonic region, but
you won't get there with an Ester kit).
-- 

cdt@pdp.sw.stratus.com      --If you believe that I speak for my company,
OR cdt@vos.stratus.com        write today for my special Investors' Packet...
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets