HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: dmast@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (David Mast)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Spanish Scouting
Date: 14 Apr 92 17:45:15 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Purdue University Computing Center


	I apologize to the gentleman who posted the request about 
Spanish scouting.  I was in the midst of replying via email, but
got interrupted and lost the address.  So, I hope you are reading
this.  

	I went to spain in 1990, and my family was very involved in
Scouting.  They call their troops "Scouts" just like here, but wtih
the usual spanish accent.  However, the BSA troops there work alot
closer with a group called the Guias.  As far as I could tell, it was
a group not unlike the Girl Scouts.  I am not sure if they are associated
or not.  
	However, I returned with a couple of Scout books and memorabilia. 
Their scout books are not nearly as extensive as USA books.  They are
more like advancement guidebooks.  They have the different levels of 
Scouting and such, but less of the descriptions of whole subjects
like astromomy, plants, etc.  Anyhow, I know they had the equivilent
of Eagle Scout, but the rest of the system was a little different.  I 
noticed there that they emphasized the world Scouting a lot more.

Each person had the purple world emblem, and it was a very important part
of the uniform.  Anyhow, if you would like some better answers or more
specifics, you'll have to wait until I get back home for the summer (on
May 3) and I'll look at my scrapbook and the manual I brought home.

I hope I was able to help.........
----------------------------------------------------------------------


"Climb high, climb far.  Your goal the sky, your aim the star."

David Mast
dmast@mentor.cc.purdue
au074@freenet-in-a.cwru.edu (summer address at Case Western Freenet)
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Date: Thursday, 9 Apr 1992 02:12:06 CDT
From: ALLAN H. YAMAKAWA <U43367@uicvm.uic.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: Who signs off on Tenderfoot - 1st Class?

In article <1992Apr8.190605.3213@porthos.cc.bellcore.com>, mpb@troy.uucp
(27331-bunz) says:
>
>Subject: Who signs off requirements for Tenderfoot-1st Class?
>Newsgroups: rec.scouting
>
>20 odd years ago, my Troop had the PLs do most of the sign off, but
>in my sons troop, only the SM or other adult signs off any thing.
>Their justification was that if the Scouts sign off, it really didn't
>amount to anything since the Scouts would let their friends slide.
>
>I tend to be of the opinion that the Adults are there to ensure nothing
>catastrophic happens, to help pickup the pieces when minor problems
>occur, provide suggestions when mistakes are being made through the
>Senior Scouts, and to provide guidance and suggestions when asked.  I
>think my fellow leaders would like for this to be the case, but aren't
>sure how to get there.
>
>So, if in addition to letting me know who does the sign off, also try
>to give me a feel for who runs your Troop - All Scouts, Mostly Scouts,
>Scouts and Adults, Mostly Adults, All Adults.  For those that have
>been successful in moving toward more Scout leadership, who did you do
>it?
>
I don't mean this to sound as flip or condescending as it'll look in
print...but the best place to look for advice on how to do this is the
SCOUTMASTER'S HANDBOOK.

Your instincts are correct, of course.  Scouting is boy-run with adult
guidance.  If kids let other kids slide, that's an issue of TRUSTWORTHY
about which your kids obviously need some good adult guidance.  They
don't get more trustworthy by not being trusted and by having adults
remind them constantly that they don't trust them.

Enough soapbox from me.

Develop a cadre of good junior leaders.  Forbid hazing, elitism, and
bullying.  Encourage helpfulness and caring.  Reward trust.

And then be proud of what you've done.
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: dpfabie@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (David Paul Fabie)
Subject: Re: Vigil Honor in the OA...
Organization: Computing Services Division, University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1992 19:18:31 GMT

In article <1992Apr8.053151.25031@afterlife.ncsc.mil> smb@afterlife.ncsc.mil (Steve M. Burinsky) writes:
>As a former NE-5A chief, I have to take exception to that!  Don't you think
>that's a bit pretentious?  I have been active with Delmont Lodge #43 for
>15 years and don't think that I would single out any one of the old or new
>NE-5A lodges as the "leader".

Such modesty!  I have heard tales of Delmont Vigils.  Even here in East 
Central Region Delmont's status as a "leader" in Northeast Region is
somewhat known.  (Aside from Wippit's Vigil jamborees)

Dave Fabie
Vigil Chairman 1986-87
Black Eagle Lodge
Transatlantic Council

>-- 
>
>Steve M. Burinsky
>smb@afterlife.ncsc.mil


-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
David Paul Fabie                   * "Remember! Editors never reject.  We
University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee  *  merely select." - David Kirby
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: johnh@prism.CS.ORST.EDU (John Holeman)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: B.S.A. Belief in God Requirement
Date: 11 Apr 92 05:49:42 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Oregon State University, Computer Science Dept.

When will people stop taking the exact wording the the BSA handbook as writing
in stone?  The handbook is distibuted to a population with a majority of 
Christians.  The word God is therefore used in a Christian sense.  Again, I
am a recent Eagle scout and I was not asked to prefess a belief in God.  When
the scout oath was written, it was for a primarily Christain population.  So,
when you see the word God in scouting it is appropriate to replace it with 
what is appropriate to your beliefs.  If you belive God = {} then, that 
particular part of the scout oath is meaningless.

When I attended our council JLT camp, there was a non-denomination chruch 
service which, for lack of anything else to do, I attended.  The speaker
said something which I think sums up a good compromise for this whole arguement

"It isn't what you believe; it is that you know what you believe, and that you
live your life accordingly".

Think about it.  I think that it adequately sums up the meaning of the 12th
point of the scout law and oath.

John Holeman 
Eagle Scout
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: kadie@herodotus.cs.uiuc.edu (Carl M. Kadie)
Subject: Re: B.S.A. Belief in God Requirement
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept. of Comp. Sci., Urbana, IL
Distribution: usa
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1992 01:15:23 GMT

johnh@prism.CS.ORST.EDU (John Holeman) writes:

>When will people stop taking the exact wording the the BSA handbook as writing
>in stone?
[...]

The worst offender seems to be Mr. Love, BSA Chief Scout Executive.

- Carl
--
Carl Kadie -- kadie@cs.uiuc.edu -- University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
From: daveh@compnect.UUCP (Dave Hultberg)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: BSA: Eagle in Jeopardy
Summary: Court of Honor should at least be postponed
Keywords: eagle BSA theft
Date: 14 Apr 92 16:05:48 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Compnect, Harrisburg, Pa.

In article <1992Apr11.070912.11906@muddcs.claremont.edu>, jallen@jarthur.claremont.edu (Jeff R. Allen) writes:
> There is an boy in our troop that has just recently gotten his Eagle
> scout rank. The boy's application has been approved by the National
> Office and he has received the patch and certificate in the mail. He
> was planning on holding a Court of Honor in May.
> 
> The problem is that he was caught stealing recently by the Sherrif's office
> that he works in in connection with his Explorer Post (A law enforcement/
> search and rescue post). Apparently the office had been losing things, and
> set a trap for the scout.
> 
> This is the first thing the boy has ever done wrong. It is undeniably
> wrong, and pretty stupid, to steal from the police. The Sherrif wants
> his Eagle scout award taken away. My opinion is that he should keep
> the rank, but that there should be no Court of Honor immediately, possibly
> at all. I feel this way because I think the Eagle Rank is irrevokeable
> once National has awarded it. Yet, I feel that there would be no _honor_
> in a court of honor under these circumstances.
> 
> What would you do? Has anyone out there ever dealt with this sort of
> problem? What might the National Office say about this?
> 
I agree with your feelings on the matter.  You didn't say whether or not
the boy has been charged or convicted of theft.  In any case what the
sheriff wants is not really an issue.  If the Eagle rank was earned
prior to his current troubles, i.e. was not obtained by fraudulent
means, it should not be revoked.  I have no idea what national's policy
is, but IMHO it would require a conviction on the charges before they
would do anything.  The boy is innocent until proven guilty.  But, even
if he is convicted of a crime after the Eagle rank is earned, he still
earned it.  I also agree that a court of honor would be inappropriate
while charges are pending, but if they are dropped or if he is found
innocent then the boy is entitled to one if he still wishes it.  If he
is convicted of the thefts I can't see where it would be appropriate to
hold a court of honor.  To go back and revoke an Eagle that was rightly
earned based on subsequent conduct is wrong in my opinion.

Dave Hultberg Eagle Class of '67
Cubmaster Pack 196 Keystone Area Council









-- 
Dave Hultberg Snail Mail: 1407 Concord Rd., Mechanicsburg, PA 17055-1955
Packet: KA3UZR @ K3WKK.PA.USA.NA Fidonet: 1:270/101.28 Usenet: daveh@ka3uzr.UUCP
daveh@compnect.UUCP or Dave_Hultberg@p28.f101.n270.z1.fidonet.org 
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: rcashman@cs.ulowell.edu (The Jester)
Subject: Re: It'd Be A Shame
Organization: University of Massachusetts at Lowell Computer Science
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1992 22:21:31 GMT

In article <1992Apr15.132616.6572@wpi.WPI.EDU> entropy@banzai (Lawrence C Foard) writes:
>In article <1992Apr14.133347.23005@porthos.cc.bellcore.com> mpb@troy.uucp (27331-bunz) writes:

[Stuff about how deranged society is and how cowardly and dishonest Boy
 Scouts are.]

>If you want to see real honor and bravery go ask some GBL's about there life
>stories. Would you have the guts to go on after being kicked out of your
>house, beaten up, had friends killed, lost jobs, just because you refused to
>live a lie?

Let's not let this degenerate into a "my daddy's bigger than your daddy"
argument.  My four-year-old brother has arguments with his friends that
sound a lot like this drivel.  "If you want to see a REAL Ninja Turtle,
take a look at Donatello!"

>My GBL friends have more honor than any scout will ever know.

Please don't post this inflammatory bullshit here.  I don't know your
friends, and you don't know me or the rest of the scouts/scouters in
the world, so keep your judgements to yourself.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brett Cashman (The Jester)			    	rcashman@cs.ulowell.edu

"There's a place I like to hide,
 A doorway that I run through in the night."		- Geoff Tate
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: poli2031@waikato.ac.nz
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: Need Help on trip to London
Date: 12 Apr 92 21:27:15 +1200
Organization: University of Waikato, Hamilton, New Zealand

In article <1992Apr10.114342.26873@spectrum.xerox.com>, bollman@zap.wrc.xerox.com (Jim Bollman) writes:
> Troop 125, Williamson New York is planning a trip to London England in
> 1993.  We need a cheap place to stay close to transportation for getting
> around London from February 12th to 20th.  This will be a trip for boys
> 14 and older.  If anyone has any ideas or contacts let me know.
> 
> Our troop made this trip 3 years ago but the same arrangements are not
> open this year.
> 
> If any troop is passing through our area we would be glad to help you
> find a place to stay.  Williamson is about 3 hours East of Niagara
> Falls, on Lake Ontario. 
> 
> Jim Bollman
> Committee
> 
A suggestion - what about BP House in London?  If it is still open for
accommodation, it would also be an educational stay for them as they could
learn about where scouting began.  I stayed there for a short while about 10
years ago and it was comfortable and cheap.  Any British scouts/scouters coming
forward with suggestions??

J Lim

Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: fester@minuet.cc.purdue.edu
Subject: United Way
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 92 20:19:29 GMT

Here's something I pulled from another newsgroup. I felt
it would be applicable here.....I'm not commenting on it,
it speaks for itself.

================ inserted article below ====================================

"Copyright 1992 by UPI.
Reposted with permission from the ClariNet Electronic Newspaper newsgroup
clari.group.gays.  For more info on ClariNet, write to info@clarinet.com or
phone 1-800-USE-NETS."


	SAN FRANCISCO (UPI) -- The United Way of the Bay Area carried through
its threat Wednesday, and cut off future general funds to the Boy Scouts
of America because of the group's ban on gay Scouts and troop leaders.
	However, the umbrella fundraising group said it would continue to
allow contributors to earmark funds for the Scouts under its Donor
Choice plan. Last year, the United Way raised more than $57 million, of
which the Boy Scouts received $849,000 in allocations and $326,000 in
Donor Choice funds.
	``The United Way deeply regrets that the six local Boy Scout councils
will no longer participate as funded members of The United Way based on
current limitations imposed by their national charter,'' said Charles
Lynch, the local United Way chairman.
	``The Boy Scouts will, as previously agreed, be allocated general
funds raised during the 1991 campaign for distribution through June,
1993. They will not be eligible for future general fund allocations
until such time as our policies are in alignment,'' Lynch added.
	Blake Lewis, a spokesman at Scout national headquarters in Irving,
Tex., said the local Scouts would look for funding elsewhere.
	``We will go out and obtain the funding necessary to continue a
program for the young people of the Bay Area,'' Lewis said. ``We will do
it in a way that will allow us to operate in a manner we feel is proper.
We currently are looking at several funding strategies.''
	The feud between the two agencies boiled over in January when United
Way warned that the Boy Scout councils of San Francisco, Marin, Alameda,
Contra Costa and San Mateo counties risked losing their funding if they
did not open their membership to all children.
	Despite the fact that individual Scout groups in the San Francisco
area have been critical of the ban, United Way said it could no longer
fund them because of the agency's anti-discrimination bylaws.
	The charity group is not the only agency that has taken aim at the
ban. The San Francisco Unified School District has told local Scout
leaders they can not use the city's schools for afterschool meetings
because of the stand.


Xref: sparky rec.scouting:919 alt.atheism:8423
From: hayes@ddemo3.aero.org (Brian Hayes 74-35 x65129)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting,alt.atheism
Subject: Re: B.S.A. Belief in God Requirement
Date: 15 Apr 92 01:30:24 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Hughes Aircraft Company; El Segundo, CA

In article <1992Apr14.135922.12624@m.cs.uiuc.edu> kadie@herodotus.cs.uiuc.edu (Carl M. Kadie) writes:
>hayes@ddemo3.aero.org (Brian Hayes 74-35 x65129) writes:
>
>>I do not recall the news story, but I would like to write this:  The 
>>BSA-atheist incident could have been avoided if the people involved 
>>had been a bit more thoughtful (particularly a bit wiser).  I see
>>it as a case of stubborn kids and supportive but foolish parents.  It would
>>have been nice if a scout master or scout executive had explained to them 
>>that "It isn't what you believe..."
>[...]
>
>For a person who doesn't believe in God, to swear to God, is to lie.
>Would you swear to Zeus? Would you promise to be reverent when you are
>not?

1.  Does BSA policy require you to swear to God (or a god)?  Or, is this 
an infered interpretation?

>I read what you wrote as: "I see it as a case of kids who will not lie
>and supportive but foolish parents. It would have been nice if a scout
>master or scout executive had explained to them that 'It is OK to lie'."

2.  Thank you for pointing out my poor use of the word stubborn.  At first I 
thought that "will not lie" was an incomplete substitution for "stubborn"; 
but, after refering to the dictionary, I judge it to be a fair substitution.
I do not believe people should lie about there beliefs.  Thus, I wish to 
retract the word "stubborn" from my statement and replace it with 
"obstinate."  I do believe the parties involved in this incident were 
obstinate. 

3.  Secondly, I'm sorry you interpreted my statement as saying that a scout
representative should have explained that "It is OK to lie."  
The statement "It is OK to lie"
does not have the same meaning as the quote "It isn't what you believe; it is 
that you know what you believe, and that you live your life accordingly" 
(especially given the original context of the quote).  This quote, "It isn't
what you believe...," could be a possible definition for "being reverent."


I found it useful to descope the incident in question here.  I see it as two
parties in an organization in disagreement over a definition.  
This definition is being takento literally by those involved.  
The parties have failed to comprimise because they have both failed to 
1) understand the intent of the defintion (and, thus, a wise interpretation of 
the definition) and 
2) the intent of the orginization in question.  
This happens all to often in life: at work, at home, and in other organizations.


Carl, thank you for stating your interpretation of what I said.  It allowed me
to maturely accept your remarks without bad feelings.


In following this subject I find there are two issues:
1)  Interpretation of policy.
2)  What the policy should be.

-- 
<<<<<<<<<< Brian Hayes hayes%bh_ddemo3@hac2arpa (310) 616-5129 >>>>>>>>>>>>
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: Dakin Burdick <burdickd@copper.ucs.indiana.edu>
Subject: Re: Proposal? (girls, atheists, sexuality)
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1992 21:36:47 -0500

In article <1992Apr7.233424.14974@ulowell.ulowell.edu> rcashman@cs.ulowell.edu (The Jester) writes:
>
>The topic of debate (for those of you who have lost focus) is whether
>or not homosexuality conforms to the traditional family and religious
>ideals that the BSA encourages.  Nobody has presented a rational arg-
>ument why it does, so my position on the matter remains unchanged.

No, the topic is defining "traditional family and religious ideals."
If we take you at your word, we are supposed to ignore the fact that 
the world changes around us.  When the Scouts came into existence,
most of the nation was still agricultural, Jim Crow laws were in
effect, women were just getting the vote, anti-Semitism was rampant,
and Catholics were thought to be loyal to the Pope first, America 
second.  The Scouts challenged those contemporary beliefs and proposed
that everyone was welcome to the Scouts, as long they accepted moral
codes to live by (which at that time assumed Christian beliefs).

Shouldn't the Scouts grow/change with changing times?

Dakin
burdickd@copper.ucs.indiana.edu
From: mayne@sun16.scri.fsu.edu (Bill Mayne)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: Proposal? (girls, atheists, sexuality)
Date: 8 Apr 92 13:03:11 GMT
Reply-To: mayne@sun16.scri.fsu.edu (Bill Mayne)
Organization: SCRI, Florida State University

In article <1992Apr08.034519.12993@CS.ORST.EDU> johnh@prism.CS.ORST.EDU (John Holeman) writes:

>Nor does the BSA discourage atheism.  It encourages the boys to come to terms
>with their beliefs and take their place accordingly.  God is used as a 
>generalization for the embodiment(sp?)of those beliefs.  Whether that God
>is God = Jehova or God = Allah or God = {}...

If this was true there would be hardly any argument. I'd still disapprove
of the mandatory use of the word "God", but if I could promiss "to do my
best to do my duty to the Empty Set and my country". I'd feel silly but not
hypocritical. Anyway, a word which means anything the speaker wants it to
means nothing. Why insist on the word?

My argument here is not that BSA policies are wrong, though I clearly
believe that they are (on a few points), but that Mr. Holeman has
misstated them.

>...  When a Scout realizes what his beliefs are, then
>it is his place to uphold and carry out the duties mandated by that belief.  
>BSA does not mandate those beliefs.

When a scout realizes his beliefs include atheism he is booted out if
he carries out the duty of telling the truth which may still be part
of his beliefs. Some troops and councils are lax about the rules, but
those are the rules which have been vigorously defended in rec.scouting
and by the BSA in court.

When anyone realizes what his or her beliefs are then it is proper to
uphold and carry out the duties mandated by that belief. This may include
not falsely or duplicitously affirming contradictory beliefs. Note for
the English languge (and/or logic) impaired: Swearing to "do my duty to God"
when I believe that God={} is duplicitous at best. I consider it closer to
outright lying. More precisely I believe in a standard of truthfulness in
which there is little difference between duplicity and lying, a standard
which would seem to be much higher than that inculcated by the BSA or
practiced by Bill "I never broke the laws of my country" Clinton. Gee, I
wonder if Clinton was a Scout.

Don't you read the newspapers or watch television news shows? Boys have
been refused membership in Cub Scouts for not being willing to say they
believe in God. The national BSA leadership is fighting in court to
keep that policy in force. Others have been refused the rank of Eagle
after having earned it in troops which didn't ask questions. There have
also been lawsuits over that. And atheists who tell the truth, the whole
truth, and nothing but the truth about their beliefs can't be adult
leaders, at least if BSA rules are followed.

Bill Mayne
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: bkgray@Chaos.mcs.kent.edu (Brian Gray)
Subject: Re: games
Organization: Kent State University
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1992 00:38:37 GMT

In article <1992Apr16.233620.4268@sol.UVic.CA> fell@sol.UVic.CA 
(Stuart Fell) writes:
>Does anyone have any good indoor game suggestions.  Our troup has
>boys of such different physical builds that the games need to be fair
>to the boys...
>
>Any good wide game suggestions??

The National Camp School book for Project COPE directors has many games
which don't rely (only) on physical ability.  It also has a list of
other resources.  Other than attending the course or copying the book
from someone who did, I don't know you would get a copy.  Might try
your region office or National.

You might also contact your local 4-H office (County Extension Service).
They have a very extensive library of resources.


brian


Newsgroups: rec.scouting