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Date:         Mon, 21 Dec 1992 12:33:30 -0500
From:         Dan Harling <harling@ROADRUNNER.PICTEL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Operation Pest.

> Date: 21 Dec 1992 11:14:10 -0600 (CST)
> From: "Scott D. Weberg" <sweberg@GARFIELD.WES.ARMY.MIL>
> Subject: Re: Operation Pest.
> To: Multiple recipients of list CHRISTIA <CHRISTIA%ASUACAD.BITNET@asu.edu>
>
> Dan Harling writes:
>
> ---------------
>  Christians in movies and on TV are actually being portrayed in a
> *positive* light on occasion (rather than as zealous maniacs) for the
> first time in years.
>
> ---------------
>
> ...  Many of the "bad things" that are shown by the press about
> Operation Rescue are examples of groups or, even worse, individuals
> who are acting on their own, without direct leadership from Randal
> Terry.  They are commited to an ISSUE or a CAUSE, when they should be
> commited to CHRIST.  They are led only by their personal convictions
> and emotions, when they should be led by the SPIRIT!  They make
> Randal Terry (and all Christians) look bad.

I wasn't referring to O.R.'s press coverage in particular, but the
popular portrayal of Christians in general, as a result of perceived
association with such groups.  These groups slander Christ, as well as
his followers, when they act inappropriately "in the name of Jesus."


> This brings me to a question about the above statement.  I don't go
> to many movies, and I don't watch TV as much as I used to.  Could you
> please give me some examples of TV shows and movies that have
> portrayed Christians properly?  I can only think of one movie that
> portrayed Christians fairly well (Sister Act) and no TV shows.  In
> fact, there is a new Steve Martin movie being advertised where he
> plays a con-man evangelist whos just in it for the money and the
> scam.

My statement was based on my general perception from watching TV and
seeing movies, not on a list I have been keeping.  I have heard people
cite examples in which Christians are *not* portrayed as self-
righteous, hypocritical, or insane, but I didn't write anything down.
My observation is simply that Christians seem to be portrayed more
sympathetically by the media than they were in the cynical period in
the 70's and 80's, after the "Jesus movement" had quieted down.

Events like the televangelist scandals (yes, *plural!*) merely
reinforce that popular view of Christians in general, by association.
I wish folks would just stop and think before they do things like
this.
____________________________________________________________________________
Daniel A. Harling                        (harling@pictel.com)
PictureTel Corp.             Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of
Peabody, MA  01960                   PictureTel Corp. (so there!)
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Date:         Tue, 22 Dec 1992 13:27:32 -0600
From:         jim coen <coen@ACC.WUACC.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Operation Pest.

Russ,
    Go ahead and be EXCITED about becoming a "daddy". There is no greater
thrill on earth!!
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Date:         Mon, 21 Dec 1992 16:20:51 EST
From:         Marissa Ratcliff <MRATCLIF@UGA.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Operation Pest.
              21 Dec 1992 14:26:33 -0600 from <coen@ACC.WUACC.EDU>

Dear Jim,

   Studies have shown that a lot of women have abortions because of failed cont
raception.  However, those same studies show that failure was due to improper u
se of the contraceptive, not because of a defect in the product.

   Also, many people ignore the failure rates of contraceptives.  The pill is 9
9% effective, so most women ignore the fact that they could easily fall into th
e 1% failure population.  As a matter of fact, health clinics suggest the use o
f two contraceptives, instead of just one, for this very reason.

   To me, however, the main reason abortion is used is because society has chan
ged the perception of pregnancy.  Pregnancy is being represented as a disease t
hat requires a cure, not as a natural consequence of sexual intercourse.  Hence
 the development of "pregnancy vaccines."  From what I have read and understood
, these "vaccinces" build up antibodies in the woman's immune system that will
attack a fertilized egg like it would a virus.   When you treat pregnancy as a
disease, you lose the human element that would make most people stop and think
twice about the procedure they are contemplating.

    Also, I believe that the fears of teenagers are being used to convince that
 they should have abortions.  "If my mother finds out I'm having sex, she'll KI
LL me; I can't use contraceptives-what if my parents find out? They'll have a f
it!  I can't tell them I'm pregnant; they'll kick me out the house."  Studies h
ave shown that only 1% of teenage girls would possibly face physical violence a
t home as a result of pregnancy.  Of course parents freak out when their 15 yea
r old daughter gets pregnant.  Of course parents are disappointed when their 17
 year old son becomes a father instead of going to college.  But studies show t
hat parents, after the initial shock, would find some way to be supportive of t
heir children during an unplanned pregnancy.

    Sorry, didn't mean for this to drag out so long.  Just some of my views and
 opinions...


Marissa Ratcliff                 Document Delivery
University of GA                 Science Library
Athens, GA
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Date:         Wed, 23 Dec 1992 11:33:27 EST
From:         Marissa Ratcliff <MRATCLIF@UGA.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: RE:BABIES & STUFF-RUSS

Dear Christia,

   All this talk about babies and Christmas has made me think a lot about my mo
ther and my own birth.  I'll tell you why...

   My mother was 39 when she discovered she was pregnant with me.  My parents a
lready had five sons; the youngest being nine-years-old at the time.  My parent
s also were using contraceptives.  They did not expect or desire any mor
e children.  In addition parents were recovering, finacially
, from my father being in the hospital for a year. (He had been badly burned in
 a household accident.)

   To top it all off, my mother's placenta dropped at five months.  She was in
serious danger of a miscarriage.  She was ordered to bed for the rest of the pr
egnancy and they started to force-feed her, intravaneously.  At seven months, t
hey told my mother she would have to deliver immediately.   They warned my fath
er that I probably would die and there was a good chance that my mother would a
lso.

   Now here comes the good part:  My mother was to have a C-section.  On the wa
y to the delivery room, a voice tells the doctor, "No C-section.  Have the chil
d delivered naturally.  It will be okay."   The doctor listened, and after inte
nse labor, my mother gave birth to a 3.5 lb little girl.  They baptized me imme
diately(my family was Catholic at the time), but the doctor calmly placed me ne
xt to my mother and said, "Count all her fingers and all her toes; she's perfec
tly formed."

   When I hear society telling us to give up so easily, then I see my parents a
nd the life they have led, the odds that they struggled against, I pray that I
can be at least half as strong as they were and are.

   My parents beat every odd in the book, but it wouldn't have meant a thing if
 God hadn't given us His Son to even the score up for the world and given us a
reason to believe the fight is worthwhile.

   With that, I wish you all a Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays, and a Blessed N
ew Year.   See you all first week of January.


Marissa Ratcliff                 Document Delivery
University of GA                 Science Library
Athens, GA
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Date:         Thu, 31 Dec 1992 02:56:06 EST
From:         JEK@NIHCU.BITNET
Subject: Re: C S Lewis on the Holy Spirit

Ian quotes C.S. Lewis:

 > 'The union between the Father and the Son is such a live
 > concrete thing that this union itself is also a person' ..
 > 'What grows out of the joint life of the Father and Son is a
 > real Person; it is in fact the Third of the three Persons
 > who are God'..
 > (Mere Christianity, Chapter - Good Infection)

and then says:

 > I dont know about you, but that seems to be a pretty way off,
 > far out and just about erroneous view of the Holy Spirit. He is
 > not just some wishy washy manifestation of the Love between the
 > Father and the Son, He is GOD!  CO-EQUAL with the Father and
 > the Son, a person in his own right, not the result of
 > something.

Ian says of the Holy Spirit:

 > He is GOD! CO-EQUAL with the Father and the Son, a person...

Lewis agrees completely. He says (as quoted above):

 > a real Person... the Third of the three Persons who are God.

Ian says:

 > a person in his own right, not the result of something.

Here we must distinguish. The Son is co-eternal and co-equal
with the Father, but yet we say that the Son is begotten of the
Father. We note that this does not mean that the begetting is an
event in time. Rather, it refers to an eternal relationship.
Similarly, we say that the Holy Spirit "proceeds from the Father."
(see John 15:26), referring to an eternal relationship.

 Yours,
 James Kiefer
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Date:         Tue, 22 Dec 1992 09:19:42 EST
From:         Marty Helgesen <MNHCC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Oh dear (3X)

Jon,
I think Gareth was suggesting that Jesus should be the best known
Christmas character.  Since I try to assume the best about people
unless they provide evidence to the contrary, I will hope that the
context of the original question indicated that it referred to
fictional characters, not real, historical persons like Jesus.

Marty Helgesen
Bitnet: mnhcc@cunyvm   Internet: mnhcc@cunyvm.cuny.edu

"Experience beats in vain upon a congenital progressive."
        --  C. S. Lewis
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Date:         Tue, 22 Dec 1992 13:13:24 -0600
From:         David Richmond <richmond@UTDALLAS.EDU>
Subject:      David 'n' Vicky --- Update

Hi Guys,

        Sorry I haven't been active in a while. Been _way_ too busy. (-:

        For those of you who remember me & Vicky, I thought I'd let you
know that Vicky is flying to Dallas this evening to spend the holidays
with me & my families: natural family & church family, that is. (-:

        A couple at church are being kind enough to let Vicky stay at
their house while she's in town.  They live a few blocks from where I
live, so it's an ideal arrangement.  Everyone at church is really excited
about finally getting to meet her after having heard so much about her.
(For those of you who don't know us, I should mention that last June I
received a prophetic word through my pastor about Vicky. It turned out
that she had specifically asked the LORD to confirm in that way that our
feelings for one another were in His plan for our lives).

        I hope everyone out there in Christia land has a happy, joyous
holiday season. I _know_ I will. (-: I also hope that this will be a
Christmas in which everyone who calls on the name of the Lord Jesus will
have a completely renewed relationship with Him. (-: (-:

        Merry Christmas,

                David Richmond
From: FACN34B@SAUPM00.BITNET (zane of dhahran)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Responsibility and final actions
Date: 22 Dec 92 10:38:30 GMT
Organization: King Fahd University of Petroleum and Minerals, S.A.
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X-Acknowledge-To: <FACN34B@SAUPM00.BITNET>

Darren,

      Going "e-mail mode" - love, zane.
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Date:         Wed, 23 Dec 1992 10:49:31 CST
From:         Carol Slingo <slingo@CASBAH.ACNS.NWU.EDU>
Subject:      Merry Christmas

I hope everyone has a great Christmas.

May the love of Christ be with you all.

Carol
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Date:         Tue, 29 Dec 1992 20:09:00 PDT
From:         SWILBURN@GONZAGA.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Assisted suicide

This "Assisted Suicide" sounds more like an attempt to try to help someone
to overcome a problem of negativity using reverse psychology.  If you have
ever seen the movie "Pump Up the Volume" there is a scene where a pirate
radio disc jockey talks to a teenage boy on the air who is thinking of
killing himself.  The disc jockey made a mistake with his advice and the boy
shot himself in the head.  Suicide is not an easy topic to deal with.  In
the case of the boy in the village, he was given a choice; but not because
his friend wanted him to die, but because his friend wanted to help him to
change his negative attitude.  I feel that the friend who handed him the
gun should have been more careful, but I also feel that he should not have
been prosecuted for his actions.
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Date:         Thu, 31 Dec 1992 16:12:14 EST
From:         JEK@NIHCU.BITNET
Subject:      Feast of the Holy Name (1 Jan)

THE CIRCUMCISION OF CHRIST, OR, THE HOLY NAME OF JESUS (1 JAN)

On January 1st, we celebrate the Circumcision of Christ. Since we
are more squeamish than our ancestors, modern calendars often list
it as the feast of the Holy Name of Jesus, but the other emphasis is
the older.  Every Jewish boy was circumcised (and formally named) on
the eighth day of his life, and so, one week after Christmas, we
celebrate the occasion when Our Lord first shed His blood for us. It
is a fit close for a week of martyrs, and reminds us that to suffer
for Christ is to suffer with Him.

PRAYERS (traditional language):
   Almighty God, who madest thy blessed Son to be circumcised, and
   obedient to the law for man; Grant us the true circumcision of
   the Spirit; that, our hearts, and all our members, being
   mortified from all worldly and carnal lusts, we may in all
   things obey thy blessed will; through the same thy Son Jesus
   Christ our Lord.

   Eternal Father, who didst give to thine incarnate Son the holy
   name of Jesus to be the sign of our salvation: Plant in every
   heart, we beseech thee, the love of him who is the Savior of
   the world, even our Lord Jesus Christ; who liveth and reigneth
   with thee and the Holy Spirit, one God, in glory everlasting.

PRAYERS (contemporary language):
   Almighty God, who caused your blessed Son to be circumcised,
   and obedient to the law for man; Grant us the true circumcision
   of the Spirit; that, having been cleansed in body and mind from
   every sinful desire, we may in all things obey your blessed
   will; through the same your Son Jesus Christ our Lord.

   Eternal Father, who gave to your incarnate Son the holy name of
   Jesus to be the sign of our salvation: Plant in every heart, we
   pray, the love of him who is the Savior of the world, our Lord
   Jesus Christ; who lives and reigns with you and the Holy
   Spirit, one God, in glory everlasting.
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Date:         Tue, 22 Dec 1992 13:20:34 EST
From:         "SHELBY A. CROSS" <LIBSAC@EMUVM1.BITNET>
Subject:      RE:PRAYER REQUEST-KEITH

Dear Keith,

We will be in prayer for you and your family.  We also extend our sympathy
for the death of your grandmother.

Dear Heavenly Father,

We ask you to comfort this family and be with them through this difficult time.
Give them Your strength, love, and peace.  Father we thank you for the home
going of this beautiful grandmother.  She is looking at you face to face now
and let the family know that someone to love you lend to us on earth.  She
was lent to Keith and his family and was such a dear one to them.  We praise
You Father that she was indeed ready to live with You and that we give You all
the glory and honor. In Jesus Name we pray.  Amen and Amen.

Your sister in Christ,

Shelby--
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Date:         Wed, 23 Dec 1992 21:25:29 EST
From:         "Michael A. Kline" <MKLINE@VDH.BITNET>
Subject:      Fresh Infilling

This morning Elizabeth called for Rachel. She wasn't up. It was almost
10:00. I was a little upset. She called a bit later and Rachel was
finally up, talked to her and went over to visit.

Later, Rachel, Elizabeth, and I went to get mom a book, Greatest Poems
from one of the malls. On the way Rachel was saying to me, "Life is
wonderful, God is wonderful, today is wonderful, Christmas is wonderful,
everything is wonderful." I gave her a weird look.

She said, "You're probably wondering why I'm acting so strange. I stayed up
all night and read the Book of John. Isn't it a neat book? I so love God.
Did you know God said xxxxxxxx? Did you know He said xxxxxxxx? Did you know
Jesus said xxxxxxxx? Isn't it wonderful?"

On her own, she's rededicated her life to Christ. New converts! Go figure!

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day by day, little things, both good and bad, never cease to amaze me.
You "do your best and commit the rest." Thank you, Lord. This is a real
Christmas present.

Maks.
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Date:         Mon, 28 Dec 1992 19:25:28 EST
From:         "Michael A. Kline" <MKLINE@VDH.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Operation Rescue, Meet ACT UP...
              28 Dec 1992 16:38:44 -0600 from <coen@ACC.WUACC.EDU>

On Mon, 28 Dec 1992 16:38:44 -0600 jim coen said:
>I hope some sanity will return to these discussions. When a person is trying
>to argue with a fool, the fool is arguing with one too.

Pr 12:15 - The way of a fool is right in his own eyes; but he that harkeneth
           unto council is wise.
Pr 14:16 - A wise man feareth, and departeth from evil: but the fool rageth,
           and is confident.
Pr 17:10 - A reproof entereth more into a wise man than an hundred sripes
           into a fool.
Pr 20:3  - It is an honour for a man to cease from strife: but every fool
           will be meddling.
Pr 23:9  - Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom
           of thy words.
Pr 26:4  - Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like
           unto him.
Pr 26:12 - Seest thou a man wise in his own conceit? There is more hope of
           a fool than of him.

Take care and read well. These apply to all of us, some perhaps more than
others, but there are still words of wisdom in Proverbs.

Maks.
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Date:         Mon, 21 Dec 1992 15:53:00 CST
From:         RussN@SSECMAIL.SSEC.WISC.EDU
Subject:      Re: Lightening up/Christmas humor

>In the window of a wig shop, a sign said "Ears pierced free, while you wait."
>David said, what do you do if you don't want to wait?  Can you leave your
>ears there and come back later?

Ken Davis, a Christian comedian, made a joke about this type of sign in a
window years ago... His punch-line was "No, I don't need them (his ears) now,
I'll be back in half an hour..."


Russ Neumeier
SSEC, UW-Madison
Madison, WI -- sixty-two square miles surrounded by reality
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Date:         Tue, 22 Dec 1992 08:21:40 CST
From:         Chris Reed <CCCHRIS@MIZZOU1.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Responsibility and Final Actions
              22 Dec 1992 08:50:00 +1000 from <DIEFENBAK@TOPAZ.UCQ.EDU.AU>

Ken, if what you were doing while you reflected on your memories of your "Pa,"
was rambling, then please, ramble on like that anytime!
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Date:         Mon, 28 Dec 1992 16:17:00 CDT
From:         "Love does not subtract, it multiplies." <HOLZMAN@FNAL.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Operation Rescue, Meet ACT UP...

Me:
>According to the article, they were attempting to "disrupt the worship
services
>by trying to drown out the church's minister."  Note that this was a Free
>Methodist minister leading the action at a Presbyterian Church, not members
of
>the congregation, not even concerned bretheren approaching the minister to
>speak.

Robert:
<Speaking to a minister during a service and being drowned out is not what ACT
<UP does.

How you read a group of people trying to drown out the Presbyterian minister as
speaking to a minister, or a Methodist minister speaking to a Presbyterian
minister is beyond me.

Dan
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Date:         Thu, 24 Dec 1992 10:10:43 -0700
From:         "John W. Woolley" <jww@EVOLVING.COM>
Subject: Re: Fresh Infilling

Oh, what a blessing, brother!  We all rejoice with you -- and I'm sure
Rachel's going to have lots of really heartfelt joyful prayers going
up to the throne of grace for her tonight and tomorrow.  Thanks for
sharing this!

-- Fr. John
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Date:         Fri, 1 Jan 1993 20:11:14 CDT
From:         Ian Williams <iwilliam@AU.ORACLE.COM>
Subject:      CS LEWIS - SCREWTAPE REVIEW

Well today I started and finished 'The Screwtape Letters' by CS LEWIS.

For those not familar with the book, it deals with letters from a
senior demon to a junior demon giving advice on how better to torment the
junior demons 'patient'.

All in all the book was very enjoying, and very much stuck to the theology
expressed in Mere Christianity.

The major impression I got from the book is that it is a worthwhile if not
'easy' read..

My major problem with the book is the huge Armeniesm (sp?) undercurrent
in the theology. The demons themselves did not know for sure the salvation
state of the person in question. No born again experience of any sort was
noted, just that the person had become a christian.
Never throughout the whole book was any indication of any eternal security
noted (and I do not think to put it down to authors license).
It seems to me (and I may be wrong) that CS LEWIS had a rather shaky idea
of being saved. One was a christian when one gave in and believed in God,
and if HE was good enough to make it through to the end of his life, then
he was finally saved... It had a strong current of the human being good
enough, never Jesus being good enough... It seemed starved of Grace.

All in All it was a good read, but really offered little hope in its theology
for people who do not believe in Grace in the extent of its ability to keep
one saved through the performance of Jesus Christ, and not us humans, who
are no more able to keep our shoe laces tied than to make it to heaven..


---------------------+-------------+-----------------------------------------
Ian Williams         |    _--_|\   |      Internet: iwilliam@au.oracle.com
Oracle Systems       |   /      \  |      Phone   : +61 8 239 3900
Adelaide, Australia  |   \_.--*_/  |
                     |         v   |
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