HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: clong@romulus.rutgers.edu (Chris Long)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: IQ Test?
Date: 8 Jan 93 07:20:13 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

In article <1993Jan7.234810.25718@julian.uwo.ca>, Eric Roberts writes:

> A billion years is not a long time at all, considering the time it would
> take for the species to reproduce, the mutations take effect (and for
> favorable to occur).

A billion years is a very long time.  Make some rough guesses as to
the average generation length G and to the amount of variation V per
generation, and consider (1+V)^{10^9/G}.

> Sure there may be some improvements, but every time a fav. mut.
> occurs in one area, the propability of another to occur that would
> still improve the system is smaller. 

I don't understand what you're saying.  Consider organisms with a
very short generation length, bacteria and viruses.  Where do you think
the AIDS virus came from?  It wasn't around 100 years ago.  How about
the drug-resistant strains of various diseases, e.g. tuberculosis?
That's evolution that's occurred recently.

>> You are aware of the recent bird migration results, right?

> I do not know what exactly you are reffering to... Be more specific.

Of course you don't.  Scientists have recently discovered that a
certain species of bird has changed it's migration path (to a more
amenable destination).  Since this is genetic in birds, that's another
recent example of evolution.

If you're a creationist, consider Adam and Eve, and then consider
the diversity among humans today, e.g. Asians, Africans, Europeans.
How did this come about if evolution didn't occur?
-- 
Chris Long, 265 Old York Rd., Bridgewater, NJ 08807-2618

Score: 0, Diff: 1, clong killed by a Harvard Math Team on  1
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: "James F. Tims" <p00168@psilink.com>
Subject: Missing Mensans
Organization: Semper Excelsior
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 06:41:47 GMT
X-Mailer: PSILink (3.2)

[rec.org.mensa FAQ...membership stats]

>  49% Christian, 3% Unitarian, 9% Jewish, 7% agnostic, 3.6% atheist,
>  9% no religion
>
[...]

And 19.4% what?  Did I lose a line or something?

-jim

Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: shapiro@cfsctc.enet.dec.com (Steve Shapiro)
Subject: Re: Membership Renewal ??
Organisation: SKS Computer Consulting, Inc.
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation - Marlboro, MA
Date:  7 JAN 93 10:00:57 EST


In article <1993Jan7.144828.11908@ryn.mro4.dec.com>,
shapiro@cfsctc.enet.dec.com (Steve Shapiro) writes...

Well, with all of that in mind, I want to get to the purpose of my message.

For the first time in the decade since I joined, I am seriously considering not
renewing my membership.

Over the years, the cost of membership has increased, increased and increased
with NO increase in benefits to the membership to justify the cost.

Maybe this is an old topic, but for me it is a current issue because it relates
directly to my renewing my membership (actually, the memberships for both me
and my wife).

The latest increase in dues is being attributed to the poor management and
subsequent high dollar loss for last years failed membership drive.

I hear stories of how 'brave' the AMC members are for voting for a dues
increase as it is supposedly political suicide. Well, to tell the truth, I am
sick of such activities as being considered brave. The brave thing to do, in my
opinion, it to be responsible to the membership and bite the bullet and
actually do things which will generate revenue responsibly.

From what I understand, we didn't go 'in the hole' with the loss. ie: we still
have cash in the bank, but not as much cash as they want us to have in the
bank. Well isn't that too bad (heavy sarcasm)? Heck, personally I don't have as
much money in the bank as I would like. But then I don't have the ability to be
as 'brave' as the AMC and demand that my employer give me a 30% raise so that I
can have the money that I want.

My second issue is with the supposedly non-political or non-partisan standing
of Mensa. For an organization which supposedly has no political opinions, they
seem to be putting an awful lot of partisan stuff into the Bulletin. I wouldn't
mind so much if they at least balanced it, or if historically they demonstrated
some sort of balance. However, the last several months have been blatantly
partisan and in fact, insulting to my own political opinions.

My bottom line is that I feel that Mensa is taking actions which are chasing
away current members and I (and my family) are soon to be included in that
category.

Regards,
Steve.

/*******************************************************************
* Steve Shapiro                 * All views and opinions expressed *
* SKS Computer Consulting, Inc. * are my own and are offered as-is *
********************************************************************
* Steve.Shapiro@f440.n101.z1.fidonet.org  BBS: (508) 664-6354 N81  *
*******************************************************************/

Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: roberts@gaul.csd.uwo.ca (Eric Roberts)
Subject: Re: IQ Test?
Organization: Computer Science Dept., Univ. of Western Ontario, London, Canada
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1993 19:52:00 GMT

In article <Jan.8.18.05.43.1993.21622@remus.rutgers.edu> clong@remus.rutgers.edu (Chris Long) writes:
>In article <1993Jan8.173044.23511@cbnewse.cb.att.com>,
>  gilbert.m.stewart writes:
>
>> That's pretty nasty, Chris.  Actually, I can see his point.  The first
>> time I went to a Mensa activity, I was disgusted by it.  Two guys in
>> particular.  Still don't know why they were so ornery.
>
>Hey, it says in my contract that I only have to be smart, not nice.
>If you want nice, that'll cost you extra.
Naa... it says in your contract that you must have a high IQ. I see 
nothing wrong with charging extra for being smart...:)
>
>I've never been to any meetings, but I do plan on attending the NPL
>meeting (the National Puzzlers League) this summer (although this isn't
>an IQ society).  The only reason I'd go to an IQ gathering would be
>if I knew people who were going to be there, and since I don't I don't
>plan on attending in the near future.
>-- 
>Chris Long, 265 Old York Rd., Bridgewater, NJ 08807-2618
>
>Score: 0, Diff: 1, clong killed by a Harvard Math Team on  1
From: mike_steiner@qm.claris.com (Mike Steiner)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: IQ Test?
Date: 12 Jan 93 20:41:27 GMT
Followup-To: rec.org.mensa

In article <1993Jan9.193909.9715@julian.uwo.ca>, roberts@gaul.csd.uwo.ca
(Eric Roberts) wrote:
> 
> In article <1993Jan9.150804.21659@cbnewse.cb.att.com> gmark@cbnewse.cb.att.com (gilbert.m.stewart) writes:
> >In article <1993Jan8.202654.9396@julian.uwo.ca> roberts@gaul.csd.uwo.ca (Eric Roberts) writes:
> >>In article <1993Jan8.171012.22397@cbnewse.cb.att.com> gmark@cbnewse.cb.att.com (gilbert.m.stewart) writes:
> >>>In article <mike_steiner-070193104411@192.35.50.131> mike_steiner@qm.claris.com (Mike Steiner) writes:
> >>>>In article <1993Jan6.214524.25582@julian.uwo.ca>, roberts@gaul.csd.uwo.ca
> >>>>(Eric Roberts) wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> I don't know of any way to predict performance, what I do know is that 
> >>>>> IQ tests fail to do so.
> >>>>
> >>>>SATs have proven to be a valid predictor of performance in the first year
> >>>>of college or university.
> >>>
> >>>Out of curiosity, Eric, what has been your personal experience with
> >>>IQ and SAT tests?  Do you have some information about any specific
> >>>examples of their failures?
> >>Do you have any of about them being successfull?
> >
> >Many universities use the tests for admission because of the correlation
> >between the scores and being able to complete studies.  And what about
> >your personal experience?
> I have seen many people whose ability did not correlate with scores
> obtained, or even with performance in school (at least not with
> my perception of their ability, which may be very inacurate).
> The question here is whether we are or not, using tests to determine the
> opportunities given to an individual, based on performance on a test, 
> that has not beebeen shown to predict ability.    

Statistically, the SAT and GRE have been proven to be good indicators of
first year performance in college or grad school, respectively.  They are
not perfect, which is why colleges also rely on grades and personal
interviews.

+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Now that I have a reader that can do .sigs, I can't think of a witty |
|one to put here, so I won't.  All normal disclaimers apply.          |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: jcooley@world.std.com (John Cooley)
Subject: Deaf Oriented IQ Tests
Organization: The E-mail Synopsys Users Group (ESNUG)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 06:12:42 GMT

In article CADS_COLE@GALLUA.BITNET (Kevin Cole; Washington DC) writes:
>
>Are there any decent IQ tests for deaf individuals?  The development of spoken 
>and hence written language, in a significant number of deaf folks, is somewhat 
>slower than that of their hearing peers...  
>
>Just a thought.

I'd be interested in hearing about the existance of such a test; not
because I'm deaf - it's more of a personal interest.

Way back in the stone age while in college, I lived one year in one of
the colleges theme apartments which had the theme of deaf living.  (There
were about 45 other themes one could choose: french language, sci-fi,
ancient greek, bible study, holography, pottery to name a few.)

Anyway, I went into this living situation with the expectation that since
deaf people couldn't hear, they're probably spend an inordinate time reading
and be great conversationalists once one learned how to do sign language.

Man was I WRONG!

I learned that deaf people had special difficulty understanding written
English because, to them, the letters and words made absolutely no sense
to a none hearing person!  (Try explaining words like "the", "inordinate",
"existential", "viscisitude", etc. using only your hands.  You'll see what
I mean.)

Turned out that deaf people tend to have their own world with their own
visually oriented language (with lots of local dialects) and that hearing
people don't always understand the nuances of that world (I've been told).

Anyway, what are deaf oriented IQ tests like?

                                                - John Cooley
                                                  LocSec, Boston Mensa


Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: roberts@gaul.csd.uwo.ca (Eric Roberts)
Subject: Re: IQ Test?
Organization: Computer Science Dept., Univ. of Western Ontario, London, Canada
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 04:18:38 GMT

In article <mike_steiner-070193170153@192.35.50.131> mike_steiner@qm.claris.com (Mike Steiner) writes:
>In article <1993Jan7.060255.2079@julian.uwo.ca>, roberts@gaul.csd.uwo.ca
>(Eric Roberts) wrote:
>> 
>> In article <01GT7GVXIZAAADDWGI@ccfvx3.draper.com> skh4161@mvs.draper.com (Kjeld Hvatum) writes:
>
>> >You're right if you're talking about the kind of small differences (130
>> >IQ vs. 140 IQ) that seem to be important to some people.  But if you're
>> >talking about 67 IQ vs. 143, your statement is very likely to be flat
>> >wrong.
>> >
>> I agree with you that there will be a difference between an individual
>> who scores 150 and one that scores 60. IQ tests tend to measure vocabulary
>> and problem solving skills, and an individual who does so poorly in both
>> of those areas, will not be able, without further training, to achieve
>> much. This in itself may not indicate low potential (unless the person
>> in brain demaged), but rather the fact that he was not educated in
>> the proper way. What we are now getting into, is a heredity vs enviroment
>> debate. (I am aware of the fact the studies have shown that IQ
>> can not be increased significantly, the largest increase I have ever
>> read about was 30-40 points, maybe the reason for this is that we are
>> not educating in the proper manner.)  
>
>More than likely it means that there is an inherent limit in each person. 
>If it were a matter of education, then wouldn't there be less of a
>differential between the highest and lowest measurements?
>
>> The difference between 60 and 150 may be great, but the difference between
>> 120-150 (or 150-180) is not, since both individuals have the basic skills
>> that are measured by those tests well developed (like vocab).    
>
>Interesting that you use a 30-point difference in both of those examples. 
>Studies have shown that if there is a difference of 30 or more points
>between two people, they have trouble communicating with each other.
>
Ah... that must be why we have trouble communicating... :)
Seriously: I have never seen such studies, plase give me some references...
The 30 point difference that I have used was quite arbitrary, it could 
have been 150-210.

>+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
>|Now that I have a reader that can do .sigs, I can't think of a witty |
>|one to put here, so I won't.  All normal disclaimers apply.          |
>+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
Orginization: Into complex forms is obviously impossible.
Date: Wednesday, 6 Jan 1993 09:49:59 EST
From: <FDMWINK@UCF1VM.BITNET> "Larry Wink"
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: IQ Test?
 <1993Jan5.211313.23465@julian.uwo.ca>

roberts@gaul.csd.uwo.ca (Eric Roberts) writes:

>Also if a fish evolved into a dog, where is the animal between the
>two? :)

Scientificall (sic) evidence submitted in partial fulfillment of the
requirement to prove the thesis that intelligent life has yet to evolve
on this planet.

 --Larry Wink
 Internet: fdmwink@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu <or> ljw@pro-magic.oau.org
 Bitnet: fdmwink@ucf1vm     Usenet: bbs-phaedrus@jwt.UUCP     GEnie: l.wink
    "Judge a man by his questions rather than his answers." - Voltaire
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: ehp@poe.acc.Virginia.EDU ("Didi Pancake")
Subject: Re: New sins
Organization: University of Virginia
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 17:51:16 GMT

In article <1993Jan10.222058.16966@cbnewse.cb.att.com> gmark@cbnewse.cb.att.com (gilbert.m.stewart) writes:
>
>Pardon my naivete', but I was under the impression that "sins" were
>defined by their being prohibited by the writings in the Bible.
>What does a separate list of sins accomplish, and how could the
>list of things considered sins change?  And is there a grandfather
>rule?  Would people be pulled out of Heaven because they did things
>that weren't sins when they got there?  Is there an extradition
>agreement?  I can picture the big line at the Pearly Gates, and
>Saint Peter yelling, "Yablonski, John!  Got some bad news for
>you, buddy."
>
>GMS


I seem to recall that there is a (religious) difference between "mortal"
sins and "venial" sins, and presumably the additions are in the "venial"
category.


--
|   Didi Pancake          |    Managing professionals                  |
|   ehp@virginia.edu      |                  is like herding cats!     |
|----------------------------------------------------------------------|
| All the usual disclaimers about the origins of these opinions apply. |
From: shapiro@cfsctc.enet.dec.com (Steve Shapiro)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: Membership Renewal ??
Date: 12 Jan 93 19:31:41 GMT
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation - Marlboro, MA
Organisation: SKS Computer Consulting, Inc.


Posted for griffidc@c-17igp.wpafb.af.mil

___________________

Steve, I can't post -- some constraint in my linkage to the main
system here on base -- could you please post this for me?  Thanks,
Colleen Griffith, Dayton Area Mensa

___________________

If I were running National as a business, there are a few options I
would at least look at.  First, why are we located on some of the most
expensive real estate in the country?  A move into the heartland would
a) lower rent, utilities, wages and salaries; b) provide greater
geographic access for those of us outside of NY; and c) I suspect,
broaden the editorial viewpoint.  I am a kneejerk liberal, I agree
with the bent of the current Bulletin, but I also have to admit that
I, and the liberal NY'ers, are a minority.

The second thing I would look into is hiring practices and purchasing
policies.  I have heard rumors, true or false I cannot say, that HQ is
run by some fine people who just happen to be related and/or worship
in the same congregation.  I only am familiar with Dayton.  I can't
say I have personally observed groups nationally, but I notice a
definite lack of minority representation in the membership.  It really
bothers me that/if the National Office has even less diversity.

                  From a procurement standpoint, I again have heard
rumors of poor specifications and noncompetitive bidding.  That sort
of thing could literally land me in jail.  (I spend your tax dollars
for a living.)

I too have considered nonrenewal.  The simple fact that I am on the
steering committee and treasurer of Dayton Area Mensa keeps me from
seriously contemplating that option.

Isn't it common sense that, if our membership is dropping, our central
organization should be shrinking?  Or am I naive? :-)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: gmark@cbnewse.cb.att.com (gilbert.m.stewart)
Subject: Re: IQ Test?
Organization: AT&T
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 16:50:43 GMT

In article <mike_steiner-070193102944@192.35.50.131> mike_steiner@qm.claris.com (Mike Steiner) writes:
>In article <1993Jan4.204851.17743@julian.uwo.ca>, roberts@gaul.csd.uwo.ca
>(Eric Roberts) wrote:
>
>> Yes, I do not believe in evolution, and I have yet to see any reason
>> why I should. There is plently of evidence against it.
>
>On the contrary; there is plenty of evidence for it.  There is precious
>little evidence against it.  Although the mechanism of evolution is not
>fully understood, that does not mean that evolution doesn't exist.
>
>Evolution happens.

You know, I find it surprising that no one has brought up the fact that
evolution, both natural and artificial, has been observed (unless I've
just overlooked some posts).  Now, you might argue that the observation
of the light- and dark-colored moths being selected in that forest where
the soot level increased (example from an old text of mine) is "selection"
but not "evolution", but frankly, there is no difference.  As for 
artificial evolution, the breeding of livestock, pets, and vegetation
proves that organisms can and do change with time, so why would anyone
doubt that it can happen?  For that matter, we can see changes in
human beings from century to century.  What is so improbable about
larger changes happening in billions of years?

On another point, why would it be so difficult to reconcile
religious beliefs with evolution?  If one were to assume that
there were a God, why would one have the audacity to question the
"right" method for an omniscient being to "create" or modify life?
It seems a bit ridiculous for a believer to question anything a
supreme being would do, particularly when "acceptance" would
otherwise seem to be a believer's strong suit.

Although I personally believe in evolution, I'm not saying that
anyone must believe in it as well, just that it doesn't seem too
hard to accept or justify.

GMS
From: ken@nate.UUCP (Ken Gacioch)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: IQ Test?
Date: 5 Jan 93 15:59:41 GMT
Reply-To: nate!ken@cs.rit.edu
Organization: HealthChex, Inc.

roberts@gaul.csd.uwo.ca (Eric Roberts) (I believe) wrote:
> [...]
> No proof has been presented that [intelligence tests] measure what they claim
> to measure. The evidence available is limited to a few correlations,
> mostly with school performace.
> [...]

One (somewhat tongue-in-cheek) definition among psychologists is:
Intelligence is that which is measured by an intelligence test.

Just thought I'd share that with the rest of the class.

   +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
   |   Ken Gacioch                    |     Be wary of strong drink.      |
   |   nate!ken@cs.rit.edu            |     It can make you shoot at      |
   |                                  |     tax collectors -- and miss.   |
   |                                  |                 - Lazarus Long    |
   +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
From: phil@miracle.com (Phil Hill)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: What new innovation, software or products do you want to see?
Date: 5 Jan 93 06:22:37 GMT
Article-I.D.: miracle.05Jan93022237
Organization: Miracle Computer Consultants

sehari@iastate.edu (Babak Sehari) writes:

>What type of new innovation, software or products do you want to be
>introduced to the market place.  No answer is stupid.  The things
>that might be unachievable to you, might be very easy to produce
>by others.  You could become part of history by initiating the process of
>innovation.
>
>Send your answers, along with it's possible applications to me via
>Email.  We might be able to produce things that you might never thought
>possible, for you. My Email Address is sehari@iastate.edu.
>
>Thank you.
>
>                       With highest regards,
>                            Babak   Sehari.

Personally, I'd like to see some software that stops ASSHOLES from posting
SHIT to every damn newsgroup.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Phil Hill                     | "All you people in TV land,           |
| Miracle Computer Consultants  |   I will wake up your empty shells.   |
|                               |  Peak time viewing blown in a flash,  |
|                               |   as I burn into your memory cells.   |
| Email: phil@miracle.com       |  'cause I'm alive." - Peter Gabriel   |
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: gmark@cbnewse.cb.att.com (gilbert.m.stewart)
Subject: Re: IQ Test?
Organization: AT&T
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 17:10:12 GMT

In article <mike_steiner-070193104411@192.35.50.131> mike_steiner@qm.claris.com (Mike Steiner) writes:
>In article <1993Jan6.214524.25582@julian.uwo.ca>, roberts@gaul.csd.uwo.ca
>(Eric Roberts) wrote:
>
>> I don't know of any way to predict performance, what I do know is that 
>> IQ tests fail to do so.
>
>SATs have proven to be a valid predictor of performance in the first year
>of college or university.

Out of curiosity, Eric, what has been your personal experience with
IQ and SAT tests?  Do you have some information about any specific
examples of their failures?

Also, I was wondering if you had any theories with respect to why
so many institutions use these tests even if they have been proven
worthless.  Thanks in advance.

GMS
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa