HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: aleks@cray.com (Aleksander Mazur)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish
Subject: Re: On Polish Anti-semitism
Date: 6 Oct 92 13:13:54 GMT


In article <1992Oct6.034520.19759@gagme.chi.il.us> anton@gagme.chi.il.us (Andrzej Borowiec) writes:
>In article <1992Oct2.093426.29019@walter.cray.com> aleks@cray.com (Aleksander Mazur) writes:
>>
>>
>>
>>I wouldn't generalize also in that area. There are several examples
>>of complete assimiliation even in single generation of immigrants
>>that came to Poland after WWII. I know examples like that among
>>Greeks and Chileans. I think that the main reason of that was that
>>those immigrants did not try to form separate communities, didn't
>>even try to organize themselves separately. I guess looking
>>in the history for Jews it was unacceptable behaviour. Separatism
>                                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Unacceptable? To whom?
>

I do not think that my text leaves any doubt in that area. Read it
again,
especially that part: "for Jews it was unacceptable behaviour".
Doesnt it answer your question even before it was asked ?

>>was the way to avoid assimiliation.
>
>So it was. What about it? Would it matter in a really tolerant
>society whether some group tried to assimilate or not?
>>

Well, it also says (if we agree on the fact of separatism) whether minority 
was so tolerant.  Do you think that among prewar Jewish community
there were no nationalistic feelings ?  And if there are two
trade unions organized strictly along ethnic background, when
difficult economic conditions occur, how can you say which side
was (more) wrong struggling and fighting second, competitive trade union ?


>A. Borowiec

A. Mazur
Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish
From: lbs@tkmhp4.physik.uni-karlsruhe.de (Lech Borkowski)
Subject: wies spokojna
Reply-To: lbs@tkm.physik.uni-karlsruhe.de
Organization: University of Karlsruhe, Germany
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1992 06:21:32 GMT

In article <1992Sep25.134102.126308@rrz.uni-koeln.de> akb01@rrz.uni-koeln.de (Damian Nocon) writes:
>In <Bv1tur.FD4@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca> pindor@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (Andrzej Pindor) writes:
>
>[....]
>
>>Panie Damianie, niech sie _Pan_ obudzi! Czy Pan w ogole czyta gazety i jakie?
>
>Hi Andrzej (jezeli Pan sobie zyczym, zebysmy przy formie "PAN" zostali -
>co moim zdaniem "in Networks" nie jest konieczne, prosze przy pomocy
>"R" mnie o tym powiadomic, okidoki ? Na razie pozwole sobie formy "TY"
>uzywac). W odpowiedzi na Twoje pytanie, czy czytam gazety, musze Ci odpowie-
>dziec - TAK. Jakie? Chetnie bym odpowiedzial rowniez na to pytanie, gdyby
>nie to, iz:
>
>1) Watpie, czy w Stanach czytacie niemiecka prase

 Ooops, alez Damianie, Andrzej pisze z Toronto! Czyzby
uczulenie na USA? :-) Jak mowia Amerykanie, a Freudian slip... :-)

 A prase niemiecka czytamy. Przeciez jest to najlepsza prasa
na swiecie. Jak bum cyk cyk. 

>2) Wymienienie tutaj paru tytulow byloby poprostu reklama dla tych
>   czasopism, co jest a) do unikniecia
>                      b) za co bym ani jednej marki nie dostal!
>3) Poza tym jest to moja nietykalna prywatna sfera, ktorej nikt bez mojej
>   zgody nie moze naruszuc!.

 Keine Sorge. Jak tylko ktos bedzie chcial cie ruszyc, to mnie
powiedz, ja znam gosci, co wiedza jak zrobic porzadek z kazdym
takim klientem. Eine kleine Bum-Bum i spokoj. 

>>A w telewizji kiedy to ostatni raz Pan ogladal wiadomosci? A moze oglada
>>Pan tylko 'Star Trek: New Generation' i sie Panu epoki pomylily?
>
>Penetrant - musze stwierdzic !   Ale ostatni ..... obojetnie!

 Hmm... to slowo na P... ostatni czy nie, nie ma sprawy, nikomu
nie powiem ;-)

>Damian Werner Nocon
>Medicine Data & Telecommunications Networks      

 Lech Stanislaw Borkowski
 Stowarzyszenie Badaczy Zjawisk Nadzwyczaj Ciekawych
 Ekspozytura Rejonowa w Gainesville
 LBS@NEPTUNE.PHYS.UFL.EDU
From: pawel@tethys.ph.albany.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish
Subject: Re: Nazi camps
Date: 29 Sep 92 18:19:50 GMT
Article-I.D.: sarah.1992Sep29.181950.29813
Reply-To: pawel@tethys.ph.albany.edu
Organization: SUNYA School of Public Health, Albany, NY

In article <1992Sep29.162737.25504@galois.mit.edu>, lenivch@minkowski.mit.edu (Witold Biedrzycki) writes:
>
>In article <1992Sep28.160512.14104@sarah.albany.edu> pawel@tethys.ph.albany.edu writes:
>
>>  If you think about the assimilation as a participation in economical
>>life of the country there were NO FORMAL obstacles for Jews in pre-IIWW
>>Poland.
>
>Not quite. Numerus clausus was a formal obstacle (after all, one cannot
>practice law without having a law degree). Also, at one point the
>kosher butchers were close to being licensed out of existence.
>Perhaps someone might have data on government contracts, but I wouldn't
>be surprised if Gentile businesses were favored (incidentally, this wouldn't
>be that different from the practices of some US city governments, or
>the government of Quebec - not that I approfe of eiither).
>
>Witold Biedrzycki
>

  I do not know what was the formal status of numerus clausus
and whether it was actually introduced.
  The story of kosher butchers was slightly more complicated.  As far
as I recall the law which was introduced required some kind of
lincense and was based on hygene considerations, although I agree
that it was directed against kosher butchers - this requirements
were difficult to meet for them.

  I only wanted to stress that one should distinguish between the
common practice and official policy - usually the earlier tends
to lag behind the latter.  (Example from US: in the city I live in
I heard many times and was adviced as well that should I plan to
start a business it would be reasonably to register as a Democratic
Party voter ...).

                                           Pawel Penczek
Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish,soc.culture.jewish
From: avr@cbnewsj.cb.att.com (adam.v.reed)
Subject: Hiding Jews and Governments-in-exile
Organization: AT&T
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1992 13:05:49 GMT
Followup-To: soc.culture.jewish
Keywords: Shoah Effiectiveness of Governments-in-exile Protecting Hiding Jews

Krzysztof Kniaz, University of Pennsylvania writes:
> In article <1992Sep23.223104.9483@cbnewsj.cb.att.com> avr@cbnewsj.cb.att.com (adam.v.reed) writes:
> > I don't have time to look up the dates right now, but according
> > to the sources I remember, they each responded within a week of
> > the first promulgation of anti-Jewish measures (the Polish
> > government-in-exile took over 3 years). In any case, they
> > responded fast enough to effectively deter their local
> > anti-Semites from doing what the Polish ones did. With the sole
> > exception of Poland, I don't know of a single Nazi-occupied
> > country with an anti-Nazi government-in-exile, in which there was
> > even ONE recorded incident of anti-Jewish blackmail or violence
> > by persons or organizations not affiliated with the Nazi
> > occupation authorities or with their local puppets. Since you
> > seem fond of historical details, I would like you to try to find
> > even one such incident outside of Poland, if you can.
> 
> Let's see...I'm sure you are familiar with the story of Anna Frank?
> Do you perhaps know , why she had to go to Auschwitz? Yes, because
> someone informed police about her. ...
> Are you satisfied with my example?

Sigh. My posting had to do with the relative effectiveness of
deterrence by governments-in-exile. I specifically asked for an
example (1) of blackmail or violence, that is, actions in which
the perpetrators can be identified by the victim, and punished
by resistance organizations affiliated with the
government-in-exile; (2) by persons or organizations not
affiliated with the Nazi occupation authorities or with their
local puppets, and thus not able to count on them for protection
against retribution by patriots.

Anonymous denounciation, such as may have been responsible for
the arrest of the Frank family, clearly fails to meet criterion
(1); action by Dutch policemen on the German payroll clearly
fails to meet criterion (2); neither tells us much about the
relative effectiveness of steps taken, by governments-in-exile
and their affiliates, for the protection of hiding Jews.

Incidentally, the question of whether the Frank family were
anonymously denounced, or tracked down through detective work by
local employees of the German SD, was never solved. See

Harry Paape: The Betrayal. Chapter 3 in David Barnouw and
Gerrold van der Stroom, eds.: The Diary of Anne Frank - The
Critical Edition (1986), english translation New York: Doubleday
1989, ISBN 0-385-24023-6.

				Adam_V_Reed@ATT.com
From: tr2g+@andrew.cmu.edu (Thomas Richardson)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish
Subject: Help!
Date: 1 Oct 92 18:07:04 GMT
Article-I.D.: andrew.Yemuv8i00UhB85dpQN
Organization: Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA


I am trying to contact A. Waskiewicz, who is in the History Institute in
Warsaw. The E-mail address which I have, was designed to be used from
the UK, and used the Earn gateway -

         uk.ac.earn-relay::plearn::andwas

The system that I am now on is linked to internet, and does not seem to
incorporate gateways, can anyone out there help?

Many thanks in advance,

Thomas Richardson
Carnegie-Mellon University, Pittsburgh
Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish
From: dobo@cs.UAlberta.CA (W. Dobosiewicz)
Subject: 1922 Polish parliament
Organization: University of Alberta
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 04:55:06 GMT

I have been asked to post the distribution of seats in the Polish
parliament in the prewar period.
I found rather quickly the results of the 1922 election. I speculate that
subsequent elections were more or less the same, as far as the number of
Jewish members is concerned.

Here they are:
total 444 seats
Block of minorities	16% of votes, 66 members
Jewish parties not participating in the block:	4.6%	18 seats.

When the parliament convened, a "Jewish circle" was organised, made of 34
members. These were exclusively people elected from minority/Jewish lists.
There were several people of Jewish origin that were elected from the
socialis list (PPS) and the communist list (NPR at the time).

The "block of minorities" was a most curious concept, as it grouped
Jewish, German, and Ukrainian parties. While the combination seems
strange, I find it quite hard to imagine a pop telling his followers to
vote for a Jewish candidate, and, in the next village, Jews voting for a
Ukrainian nationalist.
I am sure that 20 years later, most of the involved regretted their past
association.

If there is a true need for results of later elections, I might look for
them. As I said, I doubt whether they are any different as far as Jewish
participation is concerned.

W. Dobosiewicz (yet another idiot, according to Roger L., the wise man)
Xref: sparky soc.culture.polish:3019 soc.culture.jewish:17188
From: avr@cbnewsj.cb.att.com (adam.v.reed)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: On relativity of sources
Summary: NO misreading Gutman and Krakowski....
Date: 6 Oct 92 17:45:22 GMT
Followup-To: soc.culture.jewish
Organization: AT&T

In article <91688@netnews.upenn.edu>, kkniaz@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Krzysztof W. Kniaz) writes:
< Thanks to Adam Reed I have read the book of Gutman and Krakowski 
< "Unequal Victims. Jews and Poles during World War II" no less than 
< twice. Below you may find yet another `misreading' of it.

Not a misreading - indeed, I agree with everything you say in
your posting, and I applaud your contributions to this
discussion. My earlier reference to a "misreading" of G&K's
"Unequal Victims" only had to do with your apparent treatment
of K's observed frequencies in a partial sample as though
they were population totals. I certainly don't think that a
difference of opinion would be a *misreading*. And in this
case, I don't even disagree with your opinions...

< 2. Even more significant point is not, what there *is* in the book, but 
< what has *not* found its way into it. G/K display a very soft touch on 
< the Communists which is easy to understand since, according to them, the 
< Communists were the only organized underground group the Jewish 
< partisans got assistance from.
< 
< However, it is a relatively common knowledge in Poland that the 
< Communist underground engaged in killing Jews, too. There is a 
< particularly grim story of an AL commander, a certain Grzegorz 
< Korczynski, who ordered the execution of a whole Jewish partisan unit in 
< the Lublin region in 1944. Korczynski became later general of the 
< Polish People's Army, vice-minister of defence, and became `famous' 
< once again in 1970, when he ordered a massacre of protesting shipyard 
< workers in Gdansk.
< 
< I tried to find Korczynski's name in G/K book's index and failed. An 
< overlook? Not quite. I have checked the index of another book of Shmuel 
< Krakowski "The War of the Doomed: Jewish Resistance in Poland, 1942-44" 
< (New York: Holmes and Meier, 1984) and there I found both Korczynski's 
< name and the very incident, although described in a very veiled 
< way. Somehow what was known by Krakowski has not found its way to the 
< book of Gutman and Krakowski, despite the latter's broader scope.

In "The War of the Doomed" Krakowski documents the fate of another
Communist, von Kleindorf, who took over a GL unit that included
several Jews. After von Kleindorf ordered the murder of several
Jews, he was shot by a Jew from his own unit. The fact that G&K
("Unequal Victims") goes easy on the Communists may have to do
with the political sympathies of its other author.

				Adam_V_Reed@ATT.com
Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish
From: krzystek@carson.u.washington.edu (Jerzy Krzystek)
Subject: "Spojrzenia" nr 44 - spis tresci
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 23:50:40 GMT

______________________________________________________________________
                                            ___
             __  ___  ___    _  ___   ____ |  _|  _   _  _  ___
            / _||   ||   |  | ||   | |_   || |_  | \ | || ||   |
           / /  | | || | |  | || | |   / / |  _| |  \| || || | |
         _/ /   |  _|| | | _| ||   \  / /_ | |_  | |\  || ||   |
        |__/    |_|  |___|| | ||_|\_\|____||___| |_| |_||_||_|_|
                          |___|
_______________________________________________________________________
 
    Piatek, 2.10.1992.                                      nr 44
_______________________________________________________________________
 
W numerze:

   Zbigniew J. Pasek - Historia Polski dzien po dniu. Pazdziernik
    Adach Smiarowski - Ogloszenia nie bylo (wywiad z Jerzym Mirskim)
  Jurek Karczmarczuk - Podroz do Panstwa Srodka (dokonczenie)
       Tomek Sendyka - Tatry leza na Wschodnim Wybrzezu
 Tadeusz Chrzanowski - Polacy, Polonusy i Polusy a historia
       Pawel Penczek - Zdziwienie (list do red.)
     Slawomir Mrozek - Epilog
_______________________________________________________________________

Prenumerata: Jurek Krzystek. Numery archiwalne dostepne przez anonymous
FTP, adres: <tirana.berkeley.edu> (128.32.123.30), directory:
/pub/VARIA/polish/dir_spojrzenia


Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish
From: pawel@tethys.ph.albany.edu
Subject: What The Poles could have done
Reply-To: pawel@tethys.ph.albany.edu
Organization: SUNYA School of Public Health, Albany, NY
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 92 13:51:36 GMT

In article <1992Oct1.130046.4396@cbnewsl.cb.att.com>, you write:
>In article <90593@netnews.upenn.edu> kkniaz@eniac.seas.upenn.edu
>(Krzysztof W. Kniaz) writes:
>
>>From: "The Forgotten Holocaust" by Richard C. Lucas, University Press of
>>Kentucky, Lexington, 1984.
>
[...]
>>Uprising had a real influence not only in stimulating the
>>resistance in other ghettoes and camps, but also in encouraging the
>>activity of the Polish underground."
>
>I'd say not only embarrassment, but shame, as well.  After all, the Jews,
                                                                 ^^^^^^^^
>with the few weapons they had, lasted longer in Warsaw than did the whole
                                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Polish army a few years earlier.
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>Feh.
>-- 
>Sam Saal      kingfish!saal OR saal@kingfish.att.com
>	Vayiftach HaShem et Peah Ha`Aton

  Bravo, Sam !  And please, tell us, do you know what you are talking
about or you just try to aggravate people ?

  If you wanted to prove that it doesn't make sense to continue 
the discussion with you you've got the point !

                                              Pawel Penczek
From: dobrowol@husc8.harvard.edu (Pawel Dobrowolski)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish
Subject: TEST (sorry...)
Date: 2 Oct 92 21:24:34 GMT
Distribution: soc.culture.polish
Organization: Harvard University Science Center


Sorry for the inconvinence, this is just a test.  I forgot
how to use this system over the summer.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish,soc.culture.jewish
From: akb01@rrz.uni-koeln.de (Damian Nocon)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish
Subject: Computery do Polski
Summary: OK
Keywords: Wywoz, clo, zezwolenia
Date: 6 Oct 92 14:50:20 GMT
Organization: Regional Computing Center, University of Cologne, F. R. Germany


Hi,
pare pytan:
czy ktos z was orientuje sie jakie warunki trzeba spelnic, zeby moc
wywiez computer do Polski?

Z czesci, ktore w chalupie gdzies po katach lezaly zbastlowalem 
komputer (z i80836-40) ktory to chcialbym kuzynowi podarowac.
Jak wyglada to na granicy:
    musze sie o jakies pozwalenia starac (na wywoz - jezeli tak,
                       to jakie, i dla ktorej strony?)
    czy jest clo na computer (jezeli tak, to ile?).

Za szybkie odpowiedzi z gory dziekuje....

ciaooooo, Damian
Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish
From: aleks@cray.com (Aleksander Mazur)
Subject: Re: Mniejszosci
Date: 28 Sep 92 11:48:08 CDT


In article <1992Sep27.210435.7823@gmuvax2.gmu.edu> azaleski@gmuvax2.gmu.edu (Andrzej Zaleski) writes:
>>w sumie masz w Twoim postingu racje, tylko ....
>>Tutaj nad Renem (in Koeln am schoenen Rhein ...grinss)
>>Bawarczycy nie sa w cale tak milo widziani.
>
>To zawsze tak jest. Pewnie dlatego, ze maja wyzszy standard
>zycia, zyja w bogatszej czesci RFN.
>W Polsce np wielu ludzi deklaruje sie jako wrodzy tzw Warszawiakow. 
>Kompleks prowincji i tyle :-)

Do takich wypowiedzi rzeczywiscie dochodzilo, ale glownie na
wczasach, kiedy spotykali sie prowincjonalisci z warszawiakami.
A przyczyna lezala glownie w tym, ze w odczuciu prowincjonalistow
warszawiacy uwazali sie za cos lepszego, i czasami nawet dochodzilo
do dawania lekcji dobrych manier. Smieszna sprawa, nic wiecej.

>A propos sytuacji mniejszosci w Niemczech i w ogole nastawienia 
>Niemcow do Polakow jako mniejszosci (zeby nie zaogniac problemu,
>nie powiem, co ja osobiscie mysle o emigrantach w tamta strone;
>naturalnie z wyjatkiem tych, ktorzy rzeczywiscie maja pochodzenie
>niemieckie)

Nie bardzo rozumiem dlaczego. Uwazam tylko, ze tam powinni
trafiac ludzie o sposobie myslenia podobnym jak Damian i wiele
spraw ukladaloby sie znacznie lepiej. Rzecz w tym, zeby szukac
wszedzie przyjaciol a nie wrogow, o ktorych najlatwiej.

> Niemcy powinni ZNACZNIE bardziej twardo zapobiegac
>lamaniu prawa wobec Polakow przebywajacych w Niemczech czasowo,
>czy na stale. W Polsce teraz niektore ugrupowania polityczne
>zaczynaja wygrywac ludzi haslami: jak wy nam, tak my wam. Mowie
>calkiem serio: wygrywaja ludzi, bo dostaja free argumenty, ktore
>ich nic nie kosztuja. Tak do 1989 roku NIE BYLO. A wiadomo: znacznie
>latwiej jest zlemu zapobiegac, niz leczyc jego skutki.
>
>Andrzej Zaleski
>

Ale takze nie zalezy zapominac o dosyc glupawym kierunku w polskiej
polityce, jaki zapoczatkowany zostal wraz z upadkiem rzadu
Olszewskiego. Nawet niektorzy czolowi alianci z koalicji tego
rzadu wypowiadali sie pozniej, ze sami byli zainteresowani upadkiem
tego rzadu poniewaz "niebezpiecznie zblizal sie do Nato". Jesli takie
politykierstwo bedzie przewazalo i do glosu beda dochodzili ludzie,
ktorzy nawet zainteresowani byli jak najwiekszym szumem w odniesieniu
do Litwy (hajze na Kowno i Wilno), to nic dobrego z tego nie
wyniknie. Nawet w UD i ZChN obecnie silnie zaznaczaja sie koncepcje
Dmowskiego kiedys nazywane endeckimi calkowitego zblizenia z Rosja
ktora przeciez nalezy sie spodziewac bedzie trwala w chaosie przez
szereg dziesiecioleci. Nie mam nic naprzeciwko jak najwiekszemu
zaangazowaniu handlowemu Polski ze wschodnimi sasiadami ale brac
przyklad trzeba z Zachodu. Jezeli wciagniecie Polski do Nato jest
uwazane za grozbe a nie zbawienie to nalezy tylko takiego
politykierstwa wspolczuc. Jest to polityka bezsensowna i bez
szans na kontynuacje wobec jednoczenia sie Europy i niewatpliwie
dazenia do zjednoczenia z Europa beda w Polsce coraz silniejsze.
W tej sytuacji perspektywa rozwoju relacji polsko-niemieckich
ukladac sie bedzie jak najlepiej.

A. Mazur
From: aleks@cray.com (Aleksander Mazur)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish
Subject: Re: Nazi camps
Date: 29 Sep 92 19:35:05 GMT


In article <1992Sep29.162737.25504@galois.mit.edu> lenivch@minkowski.mit.edu (Witold Biedrzycki) writes:
>
>In article <1992Sep28.160512.14104@sarah.albany.edu> pawel@tethys.ph.albany.edu writes:
>
>>  If you think about the assimilation as a participation in economical
>>life of the country there were NO FORMAL obstacles for Jews in pre-IIWW
>>Poland.  Again, you were free to chose your buisness partners
>>and for both sides it was often seen as a discrimination (for example
>>in Warsaw's stock market German was spoken until 1923).
>
>
>Not quite. Numerus clausus was a formal obstacle (after all, one cannot
>practice law without having a law degree). Also, at one point the
>kosher butchers were close to being licensed out of existence.

I do not understand how possibly it can happen anywhere. If somebody
is a kosher butcher and is licensed as a butcher, how can he be
licensed out ? Should state license kosher butchers separately ?
That is above and beyond my imagination.

>Perhaps someone might have data on government contracts, but I wouldn't
>be surprised if Gentile businesses were favored (incidentally, this wouldn't
>be that different from the practices of some US city governments, or
>the government of Quebec - not that I approfe of eiither).
>
>Witold Biedrzycki
>

I heard about complaints from Jewish community in the US that
state does not intervene when somebody advertises himself
as a kosher butcher and it is not completely true. But still
it seems to me that state cannot be involved so deeply 
in those details since there is separation between the state
and religions. Simply government offices cannot become
experts in problems of religious nature. I noticed some
problems in Quebec of language nature that can be assumed
unconstitutional but I still don't know about any state
preferencial treatment of religion. If someone has any data
on that I would be interested to read about that.

A. Mazur
Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish