HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: wwarf@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Wayne J. Warf)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Carrying Weapons Laws - Oklahoma, Arkansas, Missouri
Date: 17 Nov 92 13:16:07 GMT
Organization: Indiana University

In article <1992Nov16.162600.12840@hou.amoco.com> zwbm07@hou.amoco.com (Walter Moore) writes:
#I'm going to travel from Houston Texas to St. Louis Missouri and back again.
#I was wondering what the laws were concerning carrying handguns in/thru the
#states of Oklahoma, Arkansas and Missouri.  I know that I can carry in Texas while
#traveling. Any help would be appreciated.

I believe that in all of the states mentioned, concealed and open
carry is illegal. As seen in discussions on here, even the Texas
travelling exemption is vague and is likely to lead to, at least,
an arrest depending on the jurisdiction you pass through. Ark. has
a prohibition against ready availability, in a car or anywhere off
your own property. I think you may have to keep them in the trunk
on this trip.  Such laws are very distressing to me as I have
to attend an academic conference in San Francisco next week
and one in Dallas in December. I'm not looking forward to either.



-- 
 +--------------------------------------------------------------------+
 | Wayne J. Warf -- WWARF@ucs.indiana.edu -- I speak for myself only  |
 | Midterm Countdown-Bill and the Congress have to '94 to screw it up |
 +--------------------------------------------------------------------+
From: stimmel@rap.ucar.edu (Carol Lee Stimmel)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: self defense
Date: 19 Nov 92 21:06:09 GMT
Organization: NCAR, Research Application Program

I am considering purchasing a weapon for self-defense.  

What kind of weapon is recommended for this use, in
terms of portability, etc.

I would appreciate email responses, as I am not a
regular reader of this groups. 

thank you for your input.

-Carol L. Stimmel
stimmel@ncar.ucar.edu
From: boardman%cancer.unm.edu@lynx.unm.edu (Bob Boardman)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Armor Piercing rounds
Date: 20 Nov 92 22:32:57 GMT
Organization: UNM Cancer Center

In article <9211172159.aa29855@s.s.ms.uky.edu>,
         miles@ms.uky.edu (Stephen D. Grant) writes:
#
#Don't forget to try the .223 SS109 round.
#Althugh not a "true" AP round, you'll find that the carbide "pennetrator"
#does quite nicely. :)
#I have done some unscientific experiments using 1/2"-thick aluminum
#(a very HARD aluminum alloy I got from a factory. the plates were used in
#some sort of machinery fixtures) plates, one in front of the other.
#The SS109 and chinese 7.62x39 steel core will go through 3+ plates@ 25 yards.
#
	Well, I guess we can try some SS109 if we can find it, but I wasn't
  very impressed by it at a shoot a year or so ago - a couple of guys had
  just got some SS109, and were shooting it at a junk disk brake disk that
  we happened to find.  The disk was maybe slightly thicker than 1/4"
  (from memory), and their shots hitting it at a range of about 10 yards
  only made slight "smears" on the surface, with no penetration at all.
  (I know, this wasn't a very safe distance to be shooting at metal, but
  we had the disk slightly inclined against a sand backstop and we were
  shooting from behind a vehicle - don't try this unless you are willing
  to accept the obvious risks)

  (flame suit on):
	Then I demonstrated what a REAL rifle, rather than a mouse gun,
  could do - one 270 grain soft-point at 2700 fps out of my .375 H&H
  totally destroyed the disk - the side I hit was shattered into many
  very small pieces, and the rest was broken into larger ones  ;-).

  -Bob

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
|**I _AM_ a member of a well-regulated militia - self-regulated, that is!!!!**|
| Bob Boardman,Albuquerque,New Mexico - NRA LIFE, NMSSA, Zia Rifle&Pistol Club|
|        internet:boardman@cancer.unm.edu    bitnet:BOARDMAN@UNMB             |
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
From: chaos@merle.acns.nwu.edu (Michael A. Atkinson)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Answering the door at 11PM, without a gun. . .
Date: 21 Nov 92 23:35:01 GMT
Organization: Northwestern University, Evanston Illinois.

n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio) writes:

#chaos@merle.acns.nwu.edu (Michael A. Atkinson) writes:


##I have since come to grips with my potentially stupid tactical position of
##having opened the door, by rationalising that Mr. Kopelson is slightly
#
#Peepholes are a must.   If you don't have one, you ought to install
#one, it is well worth the effort.  My girlfriend used to not have one,
#and one time an unexpected knock came, and I was thinking, "this is
#crazy, why should I open the door when I don't know who it is?".
#
#It was just some solicitors, who wanted to make me get up so they
#would get the pleasure of hearing me quickly say "not interested" 
#and close the door.
#
#It is much better to have one.


My current apartment has peepholes, which I use.

My dad did one better.  Our front door is now a beautiful and *heavy*
(250lbs+) wrought iron openwork design.  He put me in charge of putting the
glass in it.  I bought bullet-resistant glass for it.

Now, I can walk right up to the outer door, and look through the glass and
see the entire scene, without endangering myself or my parents' house. 

This is straying from the charter - mebbe we should get back to tactics of
answering the door if you *are* armed.  Rule #1: Have a gun!

:-):-)

Mike


-- 
Michael A. Atkinson    | "I'll give you a call next time I pass
asbestos@nwu.edu       |  through your star system." 
                                        -- Cdr. William Riker
            A Libertarian and an NRA member.
From: rboudrie@chpc.org (Rob Boudrie)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Law Enforcement Only
Date: 16 Nov 92 23:10:05 GMT
Article-I.D.: chpc.1992Nov16.212422.13007
Organization: Center For High Perf. Computing of WPI; Marlboro Ma

In article <Yf1nfqS00WB70X2F5g@andrew.cmu.edu> sr2s+@andrew.cmu.edu (Seth Malcolm Redmore) writes:
#Hello folks!
#
#I have heard several different rumors about (well, only two, actually
#:) ) "law enforcement only" ammunition.
#
#Here they are:
#
#1) that the companies _do_ mean it, and dealers aren't supposed to
#sell to anyone but legit. "law enforcement"

Some of each.  Federal appears to mean it with the LE only 9mm
ammo - ever try to find a store which has 9BE-LE +P+ 9mm in stock?
I believe the reason is that the +P+ ammo is beyond SAAMI specs,
and Federal is concerned with liability if it is used in inappropriate 
guns.

Some other ammo (Thunderzap gimic hyper veliocity plastic ammo) had
a law enforcement only deisgnation but was readily sold to the public.

Also - remember the Cap Stun "5% to police / 1% to civilian" policy for
their pepper defense sprays?  This most certainly appeared to be merketing
hype to convince the police that the stuff being sold to them was so
good that "mere civilians" can't get it.
From: rboudrie@chpc.org (Rob Boudrie)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Baby Eagle
Date: 16 Nov 92 23:10:15 GMT
Article-I.D.: chpc.1992Nov16.215247.24107
Organization: Center For High Perf. Computing of WPI; Marlboro Ma

In article <BxoyMH.9E8@well.sf.ca.us> btm@well.sf.ca.us (Brian Millin) writes:
#
#Some references to the P9 and EAA on this thread - here's my $.02 worth.
#
#The P9 and the EAA Witness are both made by Tangfolio in Italy. Tangfolio
#owns about 30% of EAA. This is one of the reasons that the P9 may cease
#to be since Springfield Armory made a deal to use the Caspian frame.

Does anyone know if this deal applies to regular Springfield guns, or 
just $$$ jobs from the custom shop?  I am most interested, since it is
extremely unlikely that a "general distribution prodcution gun" could
survive the current Caspian pricing strategy (ie, $495 for frame, internal
frame parts and one magazine only;dealer price) and this may indicate
that this frame is coming down to a reasonable price.

#
#The parts are interchangeable between the P9, EAA witness, TZ75, Excam, etc.
#Since some had the sear safety and some (Excam GT41) have the decocker, you
#could theoretically take one of each and make two guns - one with a
#frame mounted sear safety AND a decocker, and one without ANY safety. No
#Glock references, please.
#
#Actually, I think they all have a firing pin safety like thy Series 80 Colt.

I don't think any of the P9's do (though the slide on a Springfield I saw had
a hold where they anticipated including this part but didn't).  One police officer
on the firearms committee for his agency told me the P9 was immediately ruled out
(and not even approved under the "personal weapons of approved models allowed"
program) because it lacked this safety.

#
#Brian Millin


Rob Boudrie
From: jagst18+@pitt.edu (Josh A Grossman)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Glocks
Date: 17 Nov 92 18:31:42 GMT
Organization: University of Pittsburgh


As far as function goes, the Glock is not true single action or double action,
I like to call it action and a half, with no external safety.  The colt is 
definantly single action with an external safety.

I personally have not experienced feed problems in either of my colts or my
Glock.  The Glock had a problem with soft primer hits (1 per 1000 rounds) so
I changed the springs (Wilsons, I think).  One of my colts had a slide disinter-
grate after about 5000 rounds (the pepole at colt were very good about fixing
it tho) the other colt is new, but no problems so far.

The big difference is size, I can easily conceal a full size government model
colt, but my glock is like a large brick!  The thing is huge!, but you don't
have to carry any spare magazines!

I would say that either gun is a good choice, but do you want an external
safety? Are you ever going to carry it concealed?  Do you really need 14
rounds in the gun?

Just my $.02

Later,
Josh A. Grossman
From: bbx!bbxrbk!russ@unmvax.cs.unm.edu (Russ Kepler)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Glocks
Date: 17 Nov 92 13:15:50 GMT
Organization: /etc/organization

In article <57hG025l2b3S01@JUTS.ccc.amdahl.com> efk00@cd.amdahl.com (Eddie Kieger) writes:
#
#In article <22398@drutx.ATT.COM>, ljb@parkcity.dr.att.com
#(BLO54620-BonhamLJ(DR2194)240) writes re Glocks:
##Jammed. (guy insisted on using lead reloads in violation of Mfgr's
##warning)
#
#This is unacceptable. My 1911A1 will feed Round nose lead reloads 
#FLAWLESSLY and it has never had ANY feedramp or throat work of any kind. 
#It also feeds semiwadcutters with only an occaisional jam (less than 1 
#in 100).

I've never seen anything in the Glock manual mentioning lead bullets,
and nothing on firing reloads beyond the obligitory warning that all
manufacturer's warnings.

#Is it possible to get a feed job done on a Glock to let it run lead bullets??

Not necessary.  I've fired a couple thousand 124 grain LRN bullets and
500 or so 115 grain SWC loads in a Glock 19 with no trouble and no
rework.

-- 
Russ Kepler, posting from home   bbxrbk!russ@bbx.basis.com
Will hack unix for food
From: HDFS1.acd.com!jbii@acd4.acd.com ( John O. Bell II )
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: fun things to shoot at
Date: 20 Nov 92 22:32:59 GMT
Organization: Applied Computing Devices, Inc., Terre Haute IN

#
#  I dont know about that, I got about 50 mail messages that said "DO NOT
#SHOT GLASS"
 ^^^^

   You accidentaly bring up a good point... don't drink and shoot. I know this
has probably been discussed already, but I'm just making sure... we just lost
a guy from my area here the other day because he and his buddy got toasted and
went out practice shooting... the guy tripped and fell right on top of his
gun as he was shooting... he thought he could be nifty by running towards the
target as he shot (he's a daisy pusher now :( ... ).


#
#So, I think I will pass on the glass stuff!
#
#-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#|\///\\\/\///|                rtaraz@wpi.wpi.edu                /  Is today \ |
#|\\//\\//\\//|       1988 EX500 (missed dearly until spring)    | a good day| |
#|\\\/\///\\\/|       DOD # 0740  ||  Taurus PT-92AF             \  to die?  / |
#-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sorry to bum everyone's day...

John Bell
From: n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Answering the door at 11PM, without a gun. . .
Date: 21 Nov 92 13:19:06 GMT
Organization: Western Washington University

chaos@merle.acns.nwu.edu (Michael A. Atkinson) writes:

#I have since come to grips with my potentially stupid tactical position of
#having opened the door, by rationalising that Mr. Kopelson is slightly

Peepholes are a must.   If you don't have one, you ought to install
one, it is well worth the effort.  My girlfriend used to not have one,
and one time an unexpected knock came, and I was thinking, "this is
crazy, why should I open the door when I don't know who it is?".

It was just some solicitors, who wanted to make me get up so they
would get the pleasure of hearing me quickly say "not interested" 
and close the door.

It is much better to have one.
From: mark@ll.mit.edu (Mark Sylvia)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Flintlock Picture FYI
Date: 19 Nov 92 21:05:47 GMT
Organization: MIT Lincoln Laboratory


   I have posted a nice jpg of a flintlock and accessories in 
alt.binaries.pictures.misc .  If you like let's post your best
guns/hunting images there.  Makes a nice background for us
desk bound shooters!
From: rtaraz@realsoon.WPI.EDU (Ramin Taraz)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: fun things to shoot at
Date: 19 Nov 92 15:05:45 GMT
Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute, Worcester, MA 01609-2280

#>>>> On 16 Nov 92 23:08:52 GMT, cvacura@uswat.uswest.com (V) said:

cvacura> Back in northern MN we used to have access to a farmers
cvacura> private land fill.  It was filled with thousands of potential
cvacura> targets and we didn't have to clean up.

cvacura> My personal favorite is to used glass jars or jugs.  Just
cvacura> fill them and screw the cap on under water so there is no air
cvacura> present.  I shot an apple cider jug at 150 yards with a .223
cvacura> FMJ.  The glass powdered completely.  All we found was about
cvacura> an inch of the thick handle.  The cap flew out of sight.

  I dont know about that, I got about 50 mail messages that said "DO NOT
SHOT GLASS"

So, I think I will pass on the glass stuff!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|\///\\\/\///|                rtaraz@wpi.wpi.edu                /  Is today \ |
|\\//\\//\\//|       1988 EX500 (missed dearly until spring)    | a good day| |
|\\\/\///\\\/|       DOD # 0740  ||  Taurus PT-92AF             \  to die?  / |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: freeman@eagle.sangamon.edu (Jay Freeman)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Anyone know a good source for .303 Brit.
Date: 16 Nov 92 01:09:15 GMT
Organization: Sangamon State University

I'm looking for surplus *non-corrosive* .303 British ammo. Preferably boxer
primed, but I'll buy Berdan if it's cheap enough :) 

Thanks, Jay

email: freeman@eagle.sangamon.edu
From: jheath@fieldofdreams.npirs.purdue.edu (Jim Heath)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Rifle in Defense (.308 penetration?!)
Date: 19 Nov 92 21:06:23 GMT
Organization: Center for Environmental and Regulatory Information Systems, Purdue University

#From article <01GR9PJA0L1C8WXXZI@HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU>, by zeleny@husc10.harvard.edu (Michael Zeleny):
# I will use my laser-sighted .308 SIG AMT, loaded with 20 rounda of
# frangible ammunition, unless I have no other weapon at my disposal.
# The 18" barrel makes it handy around corners, the softnose ammo will
# not penetrate decent drywall, and the laser makes it useful for point
# shooting.  The bayonet makes for a very significant advantage in close
# quarters.  Whenever overpenetration is not a concern, I will switch to
# a magazine loaded with FMJ surplus, as the wide availability of
# bullet-resistant clothing among certain antisocial types makes
# anything other than a head shot extremely problematic in the
# conclusiveness of its effects.  Otherwise I aim for the face.
#

Beg your pardon, but I'm pretty sure I have fired bbs and pellets
through drywall.  I know I have fired .357 mags through 2x4s (the
4" dimension).  Please test that .308 on some drywall at the
range and let us know. 
-- 
"Land of song, said the warrior bard,           Jim Heath
Though all the world betrays thee.
One sword, at least, thy rights shall guard, (The Minstrel Boy)
One faithful harp will praise thee."         (Thomas Moore)
From: reb@amc.com (Bob Brunjes)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Re: AMT .380, Colt Mustang, or other?
Date: 17 Nov 92 13:15:32 GMT
Organization: Applied Microsystems, Redmond, WA

In article <13400057@iftccu.boeing.com> bressler@iftccu.boeing.com (Rick Bressler) writes:
#
#/ iftccu:rec.guns / tiglath@scylax.boeing.com /  7:49 am  Nov 11, 1992 /
#
##I am sure many people enjoy single action guns, I am not criticizing
##them.  My point is that when superior technology becomes available
##you stick to older designs at your peril.  God forbid you ever
##had to confront a foe with a Glock 21 with 14 45 ACP rounds in his gun,
##with a 1911 model in your hand.  All things being equal you are
##in serious trouble.  It is fine to go to a competition with a 1911
##but to carry a gun cocked and locked all day, would make me real
##uneasy.
#
---------------deleted---------------------
#
#Seriously, If you feel that capacity is that important, there is a
#problem.  If you can't reliably hit on first shots you probably
#shouldn't be packing.  I've seen too many bozo's at the range shooting
#holes in the overheads because they couldn't control their large
#capacity firearms in rapid fire.  

I couldn't have said it better myself, and lord knows I've tried.

#                                 Besides, reloading shouldn't take more
#than 2-4 seconds.  If you are in a situation where you can't take a 4
#second brake to reload every 9 rounds, you are in a world of hurt.  I
#don't think the Glock is going to save you either.  Further, you should
#carry at least one extra mag for a host of reasons, even if you've got
#one of those new wizzer dizzer 100 round wonder nines.  

Do you, as I do, find it interesting that the most popular of these
almost-twenty-first-century pistols are chambered for almost-
nineteenth-century calibers?  Why is the pistol important to the
exclusion of area, mass, sectional density, velocity, energy, range,
and accuracy?  And this is coming from a guy who really _enjoys_
shooting some of the old-timers. 

---------------deleted-------------------

Bob Brunjes		Applied Microsystems Corp
			Redmond, WA
			reb@amc.com
From: morlan@afit.af.mil (Bruce W. Morlan)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: too much realoding
Date: 19 Nov 92 15:12:42 GMT
Organization: Air Force Institute of Technology

amirza@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (Anmar Caves) writes:
#are totally cleared away.  I tried the couple of drops of diesel in a
#2 liter bottle trick.  Hitting it with a .357 158gr JHP loaded to max
#loads had no effect other than to punch a couple of holes in the
#bottle.  I even tried warming the bottle and the fuel to no avail.

My understanding is that diesel is so hard to light off that even
tracer rounds may not do it.  Any confirmation?  

-- 
Bruce W. Morlan, Major, USAF             Air Force Institute of Technology
Dept. Department Head                    AFIT/ENC
Department of Mathematics                WPAFB  OH  45433
From: callison@essex.ecn.uoknor.edu (James P. Callison)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Rifle in Defense (.308 penetration?!)
Date: 21 Nov 92 13:19:37 GMT
Organization: Engineering Computer Network, University of Oklahoma, Norman, OK, USA

In article <01GRDPWV8U2O9LVHCQ@HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU> zeleny@husc10.harvard.edu (Michael Zeleny) writes:
#
#I may be in error regarding the name of the plaster-like substance
#which separates the rooms in a typical urban dwelling, but my 180gr
#softnose bullets certainly expand and stay therein, provided that the
#walls are of a seemingly standard double thickness.  An FMJ slug, on
#the other hand, will go right through, but stops in a brick wall.

In which country, or, more importantly, in which _part_ of which
country? Drywall is nothing like plaster; drywall is a very soft
material (somewhat harder than sheetrock, which is pressed gypsum)
which I can easily put my fist through, and hammers are notorious
for penetrating at the worst possible time. Somehow, I have a hard
time believing that a .308 can't penetrate a half inch of material
that a hammer will go right through...(actually, drywall is usually
less than a half inch thick, but...)

				James

James P. Callison       Microcomputer Coordinator        OU Law Library 
Callison@aardvark.ucs.uoknor.edu   /\    Callison@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu
	constellation!biglaw!callison@mailhost.ecn.uoknor.edu
DISCLAIMER: I'm not an engineer, but I play one at work...
	I feel lucky, I feel lucky yeah
	Hey Dwight, Hey Lyle, boys, you don't have to fight,
	Hot dog, I feel lucky tonight
			--Mary-Chapin Carpenter, "I Feel Lucky"
From: toby@carson.u.washington.edu (Toby Bradshaw)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Rifle in Defense ( was Re: Why are there no reliable semi-auto shotguns? )
Date: 22 Nov 92 23:55:32 GMT
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle

In article <By03rD.51z@constellation.ecn.uoknor.edu> callison@essex.ecn.uoknor.edu (James P. Callison) writes:

[Stuff about long-range defense shooting deleted]

#Lemme guess...you've never fired a pistol, right? Or a rifle at short
#range...
#A pistol at 10 yards will be every bit as accurate as a rifle, but
#the difference is that the pistol is going to put the bullets where
#you aim, while the rifle is going to put the bullets where they
#would be at one tenth of the way to their target (i.e. they'll be
#hitting high), because the rifle is sighted in for a much longer
#distance.

Actually, most centerfire rifles sighted in for maximum point blank
range on varmints and big game will strike low at 10 yards.  The
bullet first crosses the line of sight at about 25 yards, maybe a
little more with a scope-sighted rifle.  Before passing out the
condescension ("Lemme guess...") it pays to understand trajectory.

Toby Bradshaw
Department of Biochemistry and College of Forest Resources
University of Washington, Seattle
toby@u.washington.edu
From: cramer@optilink.com (Clayton Cramer)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: BATF info letter 11-16-92  (false info?)
Date: 19 Nov 92 15:13:44 GMT
Organization: Optilink Corporation, Petaluma, CA


In article <199211170447.AA14646@ucsu.Colorado.EDU>, fcrary@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (Frank Crary) writes:
# As I understand it, there are two restrictions: The BATF will not
# accept transfer tax payments on a fairly wide class of automatic
# weapons _and_ the outright ban on private possession of such
# arms made after 1986. There have been court rulings invalidating 
# the first restriction (if they won't _let_ you pay the tax, they
# can't arrest you for not paying the tax.) This applies to buyers
# in Colorado, Utah, Wyoming, Kansas, New Mexico and Oklahoma and
# to sellers in Northern Illinois. (By the way, even if you live
# in one of these areas, don't try it without talking to a lawyer...
# BATF may arrest you even if the courts will eventually throw out
# the case...) As far as I know, there has not been a court challange
# to the ban on post-1986 automatic weapons.
# 
#                                              Frank Crary

There has.  Farmer v. BATF? about two or three years ago.
We won at district court, lost on appeal, and the Supreme
Court wouldn't hear the appeal.  To be honest, it wasn't
a strong case.  The argument advanced was that Congress,
by saying that no machine gun would be made except "under
the authority of the U.S. Government" was saying that only
manufacturing done with approval by BATF was legal.  That was
clearly NOT what Congress intended.  I'm not surprised we
lost that one.



-- 
Clayton E. Cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer  My opinions, all mine!
"Foxes prefer rabbits with short claws." -- Nadja Adolf