From: exuasqa@exu.ericsson.se (Asem Qaddoura,xt-dk,1209)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.islam
Subject: Re: "Halal Meat" or "Jew Kosher Meat"
Date: 26 Aug 92 20:24:38 GMT
Organization: Ericsson Network Systems, Inc.


In article 26326@life.ai.mit.edu, ahaque@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu (Abul Haque) writes:
>In article <2AUG199211052104@iago.caltech.edu> exuasqa@exu.ericsson.se (Asem Qaddoura,xt-dk,1209) writes:

>>[Postmarked: 28 Jul '92 ]

>>In article 0m7mb731@csv.warwick.ac.uk, esrmp@warwick.ac.uk (Lami Kaya) writes:
>#
>#Dear netters,
>#
>#I would like to ask your views on a situation which puzzled
>#and disturbed me.
>#
>#I have friend here. He seems to be very 'strict' in his diet.
>#Such as checking each product if there is any harmful/unlawful
>#preservatives and other ingredients (we try to do the same).
>#.... and he tries to be a "devout" muslim...
>#
>#The thing which puzzled and disturbed me is that; Last night
>#we had a discussion regarding 'halal meat' and Jew "Kosher meat".
>#He pointed out that he prefers Jew Kosher than so called
>#'halal meat' from indian and Pakistani butchers here. The logic
>#which he is using is that if Jew say it is "Kosher meat"
>#it is certainly "Kosher meat" and lawful to eat, but he does not
>#trust Pakistani or Indian butchers in the way they slaughter
>#the animal and so their meat is not lawful for him.
>#
>#He was not buying and eating meat for long time. Despite there are
>#many butchers being around, who sell "halal meat". Last night
>#when I saw him eating a meal which have mince-meat in it, then the
>#discussion started. Then he explained that he found a shop, that sells
>#"Jew Kosher(sp?) meat". I hope you got the point...
>#
>#I argued a little bit, but before going further, I wanted get your
>#opinion on the matter.
>#
>#This question and discussion is absolutely intended to find the truth.
>#This question may seem simple or irrelevant to some, but I think it is
>#worth to spent some time on it.
>#
>#Peace be upon all who seek and follow the divine guidance.
>#
>#Lami

>>Salam to All Muslim Brothers/Sisters:

>>Lami, It seems that your friend here is being very careful, which is a good 
>>thing. But the issue I have, he maybe should keep his opinion to himself. Why 
>>he does not trust Pakistani or Indian butchers in the way they slaughter the 
>>animal and so their meat is not lawful for him????? Is it because he saw them 
>>slaughter in an unlawful Isalmic way, or is it that he does not trust them.
>>If he saw it with his own eyes, that is different.  But if he does not trust his
>>muslim brothers then he should review his opinion, then if his decision still 
>>the same, that is just a personal decision.  

>	I also have the same suggestions for your friend.

>>Islam allows us to eat the food 
>>of the people of the book(Jews, Christians), knowing that their food does not 
>>contain any pork or Alcohol.  This is something written in the Quran, should 
>>always be accepted unless we have a solid evidance that those people of the 
>>book/Muslim butcher do not follow the rules of slaughtering.  

>	Allah allows us to eat the food of the people of the book. So
>	why we have to isolate only pork and alcohol? Beacause Allah
>	prohibited us to eat pork and drink alcohol. Even though Christians
>	eat pork and drink alcohol and we are allowed to eat the food of
>	the people of the book but we can not eat pork and alcohol.

>	Allah Prohibited us to eat the meat over which the name of Allah
>	is not mentioned at the time of slaughtering. Is this restriction
>	not universal? You want to say that under certain circumstances
>	we do not need to follow this commandment? 

	AsSalam Alaikum brothers/sisters:
	First of all, please accept my apology for the mistakes I made/make.
	This issue(meat/food of the people of the book is an important issue)
	The fact is:
		Allah (SW) prohibited us to eat the meat over which the name 
		of other things/people is mentioned at the time of the slau-
		ghtering.  This means, any animal slaughtered for the sake of
		something/somebody or with a name other than Allah's name
		then this meat is haram(prohibited-unless a person is dying of 
		hunger and it was the only choice available).
		The above restrcition is universal for all circumstances except
		what is mentioned above.
		
		



>>Please remember 
>>that they don't mention the Name of Allah before they slaughter their animal, 
>>and that was already known by Allah and his prophet Muhammed(SAAW).

>	You are saying that Allah and his Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) knew
>	that they (the Christians) don't mention the Name of Allah before
>	they slaughter their animal, therefore, even though we Muslim are
>	not allowed to eat the meat of an animal which is slaughtered
>	without the name of Allah, we are allowed to eat their meat since Allah
>	said: "...The food of the people of the Book is lawful unto you...".
		
		According to Hadieth, such meat(from the people of the book)
		was brought to muslims, but the muslims told the Prophet that
		the name of Allah was not mentioned on the animal, he said
		"Say Bism-e-llah (by/with the name of Allah) then eat".
		The Prophet(SAWS) did not question the method of which the
		animal was killed, was it shot(no shooting at that time), 
		or was it slaughtered,..etc.

>	With the same reasoning Allah and his Prophet (pbuh) knew
>	that they (the Christians) eat pork and drink alcohol, therefore,
>	even though we Muslims are not allowed to eat pork and drink alcohol,
>	we can eat pork and drink alcohol since Allah said: "...The food of
>	the people of the Book is lawful unto you..." and pork is their food
>	and alcohol is their drink and Allah knew about it.

>	Is there any flaw in the above logic?  

		I can't give fatwas on this and I don't know!!!
		But what I am saying is exactly what you said at the of this 
		article:
		>	..we have to isolate only pork and alcohol? Beacause Allah
		>	prohibited us to eat pork and drink alcohol. Even though
		>	Christians eat pork and drink alcohol and we are allowed 
		>	to eat the food of the people of the book but we can not 
		>	eat pork and alcohol.
		
		Dear brother,
		I personally rather to eat Halal meat, and I do get it slaughtered,
		But, if I visit a muslim brother who invited over for dinner, I am
		not suppose to ask(accoding to Islam) him where/how did he get his
		meat.
		Yes, the issue is not clear, and it prefered by some scholars to
		eat meat came through an islamic butcher/shop.  But, it is not 
		that easy to call something haram/halal in such a way!!!!
		A Muslim can not take one verse from the Qura'n or Hadeith of the
		Prophet(SAWS) and ignore the others reagrding the same issue.


>>There are rummers that the slaughter places in the US don't drain the blood, 
>>or they shoolt the animal, but until now it is all rummers and no solid proof.

>	Suppose they don't drain the blood of the animal or they kill the
>	animal by shooting then what is the problem? Allah also knew that
>	they may, one day, will not drain the blood and shoot the animal
>	and may adopt some other things (which may not be in conformity with
>	the prescribed methods suggested by Allah and His Prophet(pbuh)),
>	therefore, there should not be any problem eating those, since,
>	according to you, whatever they do Allah already knew about it.

		I think I explained this above.  The question is: we that
		Allah knew everything before their creation, now can we
		say that the verse that says the food of the people of the
		book is not valid any more??
		There are conditions, etc. but it is not me who will say
		that their meat is haram??
		At this time, almost every town has a small Islamic shop
		that sells halal meat, the owner of the shop is muslim,
		and we should not question his honesty......
		

>	Dear brother, can you explain the following verse of the holy
>	Qur'an:

>	   Eat not of (meats) on which Allah's name hath not been
>	   pronounced: that would be impiety. But the evil ones ever 
>	   inspire their friends to contend with you if ye were to
>	   obey them, ye would indeed be Pagans. [6:121]

>	Who are the 'evil ones'? Who are 'their friends'? Who are 
>	'with you'? And finally who will be Pagans? And why?

		This verse is related to other verses and hadieths.
		If you look at the Tafseer(i.e. Ibn Katheer), it says
		that there are three openions, I don't want to say what
		they are because I am afraid in translating it with a 
		different meaning. Please refer to such book for details.
		But , the conclusion I came up with is that we can not say
		halal or haram for the meat(not pork) coming from the people
		of the book.  I hope the tafseer will answer your questions
		above.  Please note that translation to English is not 
		sufficient to specify the details of this verse.
		
		Yours In Islam,
		Asem
		PLease forgive my spelling mistakes.


>	Abul L. Haque
Newsgroups: soc.religion.islam