HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: moisan@cicb.fr (Herve Moisan -  stagiaire CICB)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: breton is an insular celtic yes !
Date: 8 Sep 92 07:11:05 GMT
Organization: CICB, Universite' de Rennes I, FR

for a long time, french historians want that breton language was directly
innate from ancient gaulois because of political reason : they wanted
to prove the ancient links between breton and rest of france...
But the breton language is not gaulois language but britannic language.
as a matter of fact, ancestors of bretons came from cornwall, wales
actual devon , these celtic people were purchased by saxons and pictes.

welsh and breton were the same language till year 1000, and the 2
countries live in the same cultural world.

there is an anecdot, during a landing of british in britanny land , 
around 1650, french and english army were distraught, as a matter of
fact breton soldiers received welsh soldiers with open arms when they
heard they sing the same war song !
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
From: cockburn@edieng.enet.dec.com (Craig Cockburn)
Subject: Re: Bonham
Organization: Digital Equipment Co. Ltd., Reading, England
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 16:18:29 GMT


In article <oops@vadier.gr.osf.org>, emcmanus@gr.osf.org (Eamonn McManus) writes...
>Aengus Lawlor <RBYAML@rohvm1.rohmhaas.com> writes:
>>I'm not sure you want to hear this, but, as far as I can remember, 'bonham'
>>is Irish for 'piglet'. (Though it is pronounced 'bonav' so logic tells me
>>that it should be spelt 'bonamh' but that's not how I remember it).
> 
>Bonham is a word used in English by some Irish people to mean piglet.
>The normal Irish word (at least in Munster Irish) is banbh, which is
>indeed pronounced as Aengus indicates.  I don't have access to a
>sufficiently good dictionary to be able to say whether "bonham" comes
>from some dialectic variant of this.
> 
Some related info:

From McBain's etymological dictionary of the Scottish Gaelic language
(out of copyright!)

++<banbh>, a pig, Ir. [banbh], E.Ir. [banb], W. [banw], Br. [banv], [bano],
  [*banvo-s].  The word appears as [Banba], a name for Ireland,
  and, in Scotland, as Banff.  M`L. and D. gives the further
  meaning of "land unploughed for a year".

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Craig Cockburn, Digital Equipment Co. Ltd, Reading, England.     Suas
  Internet: cockburn@edieng.enet.dec.com                           leis
  UUCP:..!decwrl!edieng.enet.dec.com!cockburn                      a'
                                                                   Gha\idhlig!
  Views here are my own, and are not necessarily those of Digital
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
From: walker@sun.soe.clarkson.edu (Graham Walker, 227 West Old Main,268-3847,)
Subject: Re: Scots or Picts (was Celtic alchoholism?)
Organization: Clarkson University
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 19:31:25 GMT

From article <1992Sep10.164021.29113@spider.co.uk>, by alisonjw@spider.co.uk (Alison J Wyld):
> In article <1992Sep10.154911.16900@news.clarkson.edu> walker@sun.soe.clarkson.edu (Graham Walker, 227 West Old Main,268-3847,) writes:
>>From article <1992Sep10.033849.13907@cos.com>, by cooper@cos.com (Gary Cooper):
>>As I read it the Picts were definately used a matrilinear system of
>>inheritance and may have been a matriarchal society (probably they were
>>neither very patriarchal or matriarchal). The celts tended to be a more
>>partriarchal society. This topic is well discussed in the book called
>>"Women of the Celts" by Jean Markel (sp?); that is Jean as in John).
>>
>>															GW
> The New Edinburgh History of Scotland Vol. 1. "Warlords and Holymen"
> argues that the Picts were Celts, who just picked up a different name
> at some stage.  It also argues quite convincingly against matrilinear
> succession.  You should probably check this out for balance.
> 
> Alison

My source (which I will provide later) isone of the present "experts" on the
Picts and he would agree that the Picts (from the latin Picti which
referred to the fact that men and women charged into battle naked and
painted) were P-celts, but as I remember he argues that they used a
matrilinear line of succession.

															GW
From: cindyd@paradise.Eng.Sun.COM (Cindy Derafshan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Celtic Celebrations
Date: 11 Sep 1992 16:41:02 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Distribution: world
Reply-To: cindyd@paradise.Eng.Sun.COM
NNTP-Posting-Host: paradise
Keywords: Beltaine, Samhain

I need help with the pronunciation of the words Beltaine and Samhain.
I've also seen them spelled Beltane, Beltine, Samain, etc. What's the
preferred spelling and pronunciation? I was told Samhain is "sow-an"
and Beltaine is "bel-ti-nuh". Is this correct? Does Beltaine have 3
syllables? Would you call Beltaine a Springtime celebration, and
Samhain a Fall celebration? Thank you.
From: mlhb@mammoth.dr.att.com (Sky Warrior)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Bonham
Date: 11 Sep 92 14:47:33 GMT

In article <oops@vadier.gr.osf.org>, emcmanus@gr.osf.org (Eamonn McManus) writes:
|> Aengus Lawlor <RBYAML@rohvm1.rohmhaas.com> writes:
|> >I'm not sure you want to hear this, but, as far as I can remember, 'bonham'
|> >is Irish for 'piglet'. (Though it is pronounced 'bonav' so logic tells me
|> >that it should be spelt 'bonamh' but that's not how I remember it).
|> 
|> Bonham is a word used in English by some Irish people to mean piglet.
|> The normal Irish word (at least in Munster Irish) is banbh, which is
|> indeed pronounced as Aengus indicates.  I don't have access to a
|> sufficiently good dictionary to be able to say whether "bonham" comes
|> from some dialectic variant of this.
|> 
|> ,
|> Eamonn

Interesting.  We had always thought it was a corruption of the French word
"bonhomme"  which means "good man".  This seemed to suggest possible Norman 
influence (you know 1066 and all that stuff).  The pronunciation seems to 
suggest it, since the "h" is silent.  Pardon my lack of knowledge concerning 
the Irish language, but is the "h" pronounced in the Irish word?

As for "Skye Warrior" ;-) don't think we weren't tempted.  The main problem
with that name was we were afraid someone would think my kennel would
have Skye Terriers in it instead of sled dogs (Alaskan Huskies).  I right now
have a humorous picture of a bunch of terriers pulling a sled ;-)
-- 
-----------------------------                                              
SKY WARRIOR aka MLH Bonham  | "Good tea.  Nice House." -- Lt. Worf
mammoth!mlhb@druhi.att.com  |----------------------------------------------
mlhb@drutx.ATT.COM          | SKY WARRIOR RACING KENNELS - Coming to an
                            | Iditarod near you!
-----------------------------
From: mmh@cs.qmw.ac.uk (Matthew Huntbach)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Cockney slang or prison talk
Date: 15 Sep 92 08:19:42 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Dept, QMW, University of London, UK.

From: davidson@ccrs.emr.ca (David Davidson)
>Are there any linguist-types out there who can suggest a reference on
>Cockney rhyming slang? I have also heard it refered to as "prison-talk".
>I am looking for a book which discusses origins etc.. and includes
>a glossary.

You'd do better to ask in soc.culture.british. Cockney
rhyming slang has nothing to do with things Celtic. In fact
the subject has been discussed a couple of times in s.c.b, and
sending your message there would probably elicit some sort of
glossary.

Cockney rhyming slang evolved more among market traders than
prisoners. It is still used to some extent, but the most
important thing which the twee tourist books that you can buy
on the subject don't mention is that the rhyming part of the
slang phrase is NEVER pronounced. Thus, for example, a cab is a
"sherbert" from "sherbet dab" (a type of sweet), but you would
never pronounce the "dab". In fact there are many slang phrases
which originated as rhyming slang but whose rhyming component
has been forgotten.

By the time the rhyming phrases make it into the twee tourist
books they're usually years out of date, since it changes at a
very fast rate.

The best book on London ways of speech is "The Muvver Tongue"
by Robert Barltrop. Sorry, I haven't seen it around for some
time, don't know if it's still in print, but Barltrop knows his
stuff (he also writes a column in the "Newham Recorder", a
newspaper that circulates in East London).

Matthew Huntbach
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic,soc.culture.china,soc.culture.esperanto,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.japan,soc.culture.misc,talk.religion.misc
From: smittie@beach.csulb.edu (Smittie)
Subject: Re: CALL OF THE QUR'AN TO THE PEOPLE OF THE BOOK
Organization: Cal State Long Beach
Distribution: usa
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1992 00:47:07 GMT

What does this OVERLY LONG post dealing with religions, neither of which are at
all prominent in Japan, doing in soc.culture.Japan? Looks like I need to add
another address to the kill file.

smittie
-- 
___________________________________________________________________________
GEnie, MCI, AOL:Smittie | If all of us were as smart as we think we are the
smittie@beach.csulb.edu |  current world problems would be yesterday's news.
________________________|___________________________________________________
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
From: rade@freia.inf.tu-dresden.de (Matthias Radestock)
Subject: Just a question...
Organization: TU-Dresden, Dept. of Computer Science, Germany
Distribution: soc
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1992 10:25:00 GMT

Maybe this is not the right place. But anyway, I'm transcribed to the Sinead
O'Connor mailing list. For almost 3 month we've been desparetly looking for
the lyrics to a song called 'Irish Ways'. Its first four lines are:
	Once upon a time ther were
	Irish Ways and Irish Laws
	Villages of Irish blood
	Waking to the morning
Unfortunatly not all lines are that easy to understand, but as it is an Irish
Traditional Song I hope that amongst the readers of this group is somebody
who can post me the complete lyrics or at least give me a hint where to find it

Thanks in advance


Matthias


Please reply to rade@freia.inf.tu-dresden.de










Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
From: moisan@cicb.fr (Herve Moisan -  stagiaire CICB)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Armorican people....
Date: 14 Sep 92 07:41:10 GMT
Organization: CICB, Universite' de Rennes I, FR

when Breton come in armorica, west of armorica spoke a gaulish dialect,
and breton and armorican could, understand themselves...
but there is a breton legend which say that bretons cut armorican people
tongues to keep their language pure....and displace armorican people in
actual normandy .
the truth is doubtless between 2 extrems...
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
From: walker@sun.soe.clarkson.edu (Graham Walker, 227 West Old Main,268-3847,)
Subject: Prehistoric Britain
Organization: Clarkson University
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 16:50:16 GMT

From article <1992Sep14.144805.20660@st-andrews.ac.uk>, by rm4@st-andrews.ac.uk (Rosa Michaelson):
> 
> And how come no one is interested in the pre-celts? Until the big 
> volacano errupted in Iceland aprox 5000 years ago there were loadsa
> (well atleast 60000) people reputed to live in those houses on piles
> round wet areas (both inland and by the sea) and WHO BUILT THE BROCHS and
> what were they for???

There was also a programme on PBS (NOVA I think) which talked about the
Red Ocker(sp) people of Maine, Nova Scotia, and Labrador (New
Foundland), and up into Greenland. It was suggested that these peoples
were more advance than their European contemporaries, and that
technology actually travelled fron the Americas to Western Europe via
the Arctic land. This I think was about 5000 to 4000 years ago and then
that culture "disappeared".

															GW
From: mmh@cs.qmw.ac.uk (Matthew Huntbach)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re:  What Clan and What Tartan
Date: 14 Sep 92 10:46:25 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Dept, QMW, University of London, UK.

From: morna@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Morna J Findlay)
>All she did was enquire about a tartan and you publicly insulted her.
>
>You could have expressed your views on the likelyhood or otherwise
>of her finding a Bonham tartan, and pointed out that in your and many
>others opinions, there was unlikely ever to have been a Bonham clan
>tearing about the heather in cute matching outfits without being so
>rude.
>
>I haven't seen you apologise for implying she was some kind of
>"sword and sorcery" ignoramus yet either.

A quick look through the British phone directories revealed
almost no Bonhams listed anywhere in Scotland (none at all in
the Highlands, about two apiece in Glasgow and Edinburgh), and
a scattering in England, with quite a big concentration in the
Midlands, often occurring in the form "Boneham".

So there you are, a useful bit of research done in less than
five minutes. All I am saying is that there are a few
elementary things one can do before jumping to the conclusion
that one's surname comes from the Celtic mists complete with
clans, tartans and other romantic attachments.

"-ham" is a very common (I think the most common) element in
English placenames, meaning just "village". Many English
surnames are derived from placenames, so unless there are any
strong indications to the contrary, one should assume that a
name like "Bonham" is standard English. I did find one or two
"Bonhommes" listed, but these is almost certainly on the line
"Smith" -> "Smythe", a fanciful mispelling based on false
etymology designed to hide a commonplace Anglo-Saxon name.

There are books showing the derivation of English surnames
available in most public libraries. I couldn't find one
immediately to hand, so I didn't go looking for one. Such a
book would explain precisely where this surname originated.

I didn't particularly mean to insult Mrs.Bonham, I merely meant
to express my exasperation at a common sort of message rather
in the same way that I sometimes react to people in
comp.lang.prolog who ask questions that could be answered by
picking up any introductory Prolog textbook.

I apologise to Mrs.Bonham for any suggestion that she is a
swords-and-sorcery fan (presumably I should now apologise to
swords-and-sorceries fans for suggesting that suggesting
someone is one is pejorative), she has made quite clear the
reason why on my system it said in capital letters that her
message had come from someone with the name of SKY WARRIOR.
Personally, I would suggest to her that if she intends to make
use of email for any more than recreational purposes it would
be a good idea to ensure that her messages are clearly marked
with her real name. After all, if I were to write to my bank
manager and sign myself "SKY WARRIOR", I don't think I'd have
much right to complain if he didn't take me seriously.

Matthew Huntbach
From: erck03@castle.ed.ac.uk (John Wexler)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Sheela-na-gig
Date: 14 Sep 92 09:27:55 GMT
Organization: Edinburgh University Computing Service

In article <1992Sep11.091700.14463@dcs.qmw.ac.uk>, mmh@cs.qmw.ac.uk (Matthew Huntbach) writes:
|> A "sheela-na-gig" is a carving of a woman displaying outsized
|> genitals, found in some ancient churches.
There's at least one in Scotland (I'm no expert - there may be dozens
for all I know).  It's high up on the external wall of the tower of the
church at Rodel (Harris).  I don't like attracting tourists to places
which are both beautiful and quiet, but in this case I feel quite safe.
It is not worth making the trip to see the pudenda.  Those few who can
figure out why it is worth making the trip, and who can actually achieve
it, will not overrun the place.

    John Wexler
    Edinburgh
From: cla04@seq1.keele.ac.uk (A.T. Fear)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Eagles Reaches Church of Asatru
Date: 5 Sep 92 11:09:59 GMT
Organization: University of Keele, England

From article <1992Sep4.170305.28830@octel.com>, by dfair@octel.com (Donald Fair):
>>  Celts were *not* a racial group -- ethnicity is defined by language
                                                               ^^^^^^^^
not so sure about this as a general rule - the Jews of ancient
Alexandria all spoke Greek, but regarded themselves as Jewish and were
so regarded by others. I believe something similar may be true mutatis
mutandis of the Chinese of Malaya

>>and cultural values, not some vague genetic poppycock.
                                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 
I also wonder about the latter a little. I don't want to subscribe to
neo-nazi theories of race, but I wonder whether total dismissal of this
factor is merely to submit equally thoughtlessly to today's ruling
liberal dogmas. The ancients seemed to worry a little about race, as the
protests of various poets about the Romaness of various individuals who
spoke Latin and shared Roman cultural values suggestively hints. The
Greeks were even hotter on this - but don't let that sneak over to
soc.culture.Greek please. The end point here is that even if genetics
can't determine race, a belief that it can enters into the nexus of
cultural factors that do so, so 'racial' factors can't be entirely dismissed.


> 	by historians all over Ireland that the Iberian Celts where
> 	the first settlers. Coming north to Ireland to find copper
> 	and leaving their markers the Ogham stones. Know what an
> 	Ogham stone is ??


Certainly do, just wondered where they crop up in Spain. If you know
could I have a reference please. Any suggestions of dates? All the Iberian scripts I've seen,
including Celtiberian and 'Tartessic', look, wait for it, rather runic
in appearance, but that no doubt is through ignorance on my part.


Andy
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
From: cockburn@edieng.enet.dec.com (Craig Cockburn)
Subject: Re: Kilt availability.
Organization: Digital Equipment Co. Ltd., Reading, England
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 22:41:38 GMT


In article <gehY06600j_jMUcxo4@cs.cmu.edu>, Dale.James@cs.cmu.edu writes...
>I've recently discovered that I am of Scottish ancestry, the MacPherson clan
>in particular.  I went to the Highland Games, a sort of Scottish heritage
>festival, in Ligonier, Pennsylvania this past weekend, and was looking at
>kilts.  Summer kilts were going for around $200-300, and heavy winter kilts
>were going for about $400-500.  Is there perhaps a more economical source
>for these?  My girlfriend (McClure of the clan MacCleod) is also interested
>in getting one.
> 
Don't waste your money on a kilt for your girlfriend. Kilts are only worn
by men, women wear kilted skirts. These have much less material in them
and so are quite a bit cheaper.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Craig Cockburn, Digital Equipment Co. Ltd, Reading, England.     Suas
  Internet: cockburn@edieng.enet.dec.com                           leis
  UUCP:..!decwrl!edieng.enet.dec.com!cockburn                      a'
                                                                   Gha\idhlig!
  Views here are my own, and are not necessarily those of Digital
Organization: University Libraries - Public Services, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 17:12:01 -0400 
From: "Barbara G. Jacob-McDowell" <bj00+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: What Clan but NOT what tartanCC: 
	<1992Sep14.104625.24711@dcs.qmw.ac.uk>

Sorry, I'm having a problem with my keyboard.

    My husband asked me to post this inquiry for him. He already knows
about his Scottish heritage, but wants to know more about his Irish
background. The family name is McDowell, and family legend has it that
at least one left Scotland to go to Ireland as one of the
"Gallowglasses" (?), dropped the "a" out of MacDowell at some point, and
his descendants emigrated to the US probably in the mid-19th century if
not earlier. John's confusion arises over where in Ireland his family 
may have settled, and whether they were part of the Doyles or the
McDoughals (not sure of the spelling--and yes, I know that there are
many variants). We were at the Pittsburgh Irish Festival this past Sat.
(I was telling stories), and John bought a video about the history of
the Doyles & McDowells from a vendor. (An absolute goldmine for whoever
thought up the idea--during the hour that we watched, I appreciated the
filmsplicing between the bits no doubt common to all such tapes no
matter what the name, and the bits on the Doyles and the ONE mention of
the McDowells.) John commented at the end that he felt more confused
than ever. We would appreciate any help.
    If you are a purist about these matters, and think it foolish of
people not to know already about their past--well, when families make
major moves, or there are unexpected deaths before information is passed
on, or a child is separated from parents for whatever reason, or there
is bitterness and a refusal to even admit to being part of a particular
heritage, sometimes the knowledge is lost. I think, considering some of
the major upheavals during this century and how many families,
especially in the US, do not have the deep roots in place and family
which have been more common in the past, that questions like these are
not always trivial. I know that my own quest for identity and
connectedness has not been lightly, insincerely, or romantically
undertaken. 
    Aren't you all glad I'm not asking if anyone can tell me info about
the family name of Jones, when I have no idea what part of Wales that
part of my
grandmother's family came from, and I know that it is a fairly common name?


Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
From: esharp@sage.cc.purdue.edu (Edwin Sharp)
Subject: Help w/ Irish Gaelic phrase
Organization: Purdue University Computing Center
Distribution: all
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1992 00:03:21 GMT

I am trying to find out how to write "With all my heart" at the close of a letter.  I have looked for a dictionary or phrase book in I.G, but I have not found any (big surprise).  Please E-mail or post here.  Also, is there a good book availible to self-learn I.G.?
Esharp@sage.cc.purdue.edu
From: mmh@cs.qmw.ac.uk (Matthew Huntbach)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Sheela-na-gig
Date: 11 Sep 92 09:17:00 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Dept, QMW, University of London, UK.

From: merritt@macro.bu.edu (Sean Merritt)
>On the new album DRY the band PJ Harvey(lead guitarist of the same name)
>has a son titled "Sheela-na-gig". Is this gaelic? If so what does it
>mean?
>
>The line in the song goes "Sheela na gig, you exhibitionist!"

A "sheela-na-gig" is a carving of a woman displaying outsized
genitals, found in some ancient churches.

Matthew Huntbach
From: halpin@vax.oxford.ac.uk
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: News: Druids invented by French cartoonist
Date: 8 Sep 92 11:17:39 GMT
Organization: Oxford University VAX 6620

In yesterday's Review section of the English Sunday Independent
there's an interesting profile of Garry Hynes, the artistic director
of the Abbey Theatre (with a suitable ``**** the begrudgers'' subtext,
as she seems to be getting a lot of stick from the Dublin
intelligentsia). 

The reason I bring it up here is something mentioned in passing in the
article, which piqued my interest: Hynes and others set up the Druid
Theatre in Galway, and according to the article named it after a
``character in the Asterix cartoon series''. 

Has anyone got the lowdown on this? Is all this celtic stuff a figment
of the imaginations of Goscinny and Uderzo???

yours,

Chaotix.

Brendan Halpin                    Email: HALPIN@VAX.OXFORD.AC.UK
Nuffield College                  Phone: +44 865 278642
Oxford OX1 1NF
United Kingdom
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
From: ray@philmtl.philips.ca (Ray Dunn)
Subject: Re: What is Ireland's national anthem? Is there one?
Organization: On the Brew.
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 05:25:00 GMT

In referenced article, skaamjm@ucl.ac.uk (Matthew Moore) writes:
>It still gets more of a cheer than the English nat
>anthem.

What exactly is that one then?
-- 
Ray Dunn at home    |    ray@philmtl.philips.ca    |    (514) 630 3749
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic