From: jp@tygra.Michigan.COM (John Palmer)
Subject: Re: Hasan B Mutlu
Organization: CAT-TALK Conferencing Network, Detroit, MI
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 92 06:54:01 GMT

In article <1992Aug28.042245.18758@usenet.ins.cwru.edu> by403@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Spiros Triantafyllopoulos) writes:
"
"In article <1992Aug27.034946.23143@tygra.Michigan.COM>,
"root@tygra.Michigan.COM (Charlie Root) writes:
">Our site fed anadolu, the site from which Hasan Mutlu posts. As of this
">time, because we are in a temporary location without adequate phone lines
">the feed to anadolu and our other downstream sites are suspended. I don't
">know what route he is using to get out his messages to the net, but it 
">is not through our site. His use of the name "anadolu.MICHIGAN.COM" is a
">temporary misnomer, although it isn't permanently terminated.
"
"The 'temporary misnomer' had been posting (forging) articles thru the
"post-usenet@ucbvax.berkeley.edu for several weeks, and kept posting
"till (probably) the powers that be at Berkeley pulled the plug,
"probably yesterday. History will show whether this will work.
"

Posting through the UCBVAX gateway is not automatically a "forgery"
And, as I've expalined before, the site anadolu has our permission to
use "MICHIGAN.COM". I have informed the admin at anadolu,
however, that it would be
wise to discontinue using MICHIGAN.COM until we get inbound lines 
again as all mail to that site will bounce. That, I left up to the
admin at anadolu. What part of Mutlu's postings are you considering 
forgeries??


">When his feed gets reactivated, I will inform him that we will not tolerate
">so much crossposting like he has done before. I have been informed that 
">he has posted to groups like news.admin and alt.politics.clinton, which are
">in my opinion, inappropriate places to discuss the Armenian-Turkish 
">debate. 
"
"And I am sure you will expect him to listen. Now, about that bridge in
"Zilwakee :-). Seriously, now. He did not listen before, and he has
"several accounts canned to prove it. What makes you think he will
"listen to you? Will you be willing to remove his account and lose
"him as a customer if he does not (when he will not, that is) cooperate 
"and act rationally?
"

First of all, lets get something straight. As I understand it, Mr. Mutlu 
is NOT the sysadmin at anadolu. You talk as if he and the admin are the
same person. They are, as I understand it, not the same person.

"Will your site also not tolerate smoke-and-mirror headers, commonly
"used by Mutlu and Company? Some pretty conclusive evidence was
"presented earlier that anatolia.mn.org was used to send articles to 10
"or so news groups, appearing to have originated from
"anadolu.michigan.com, but in reality coming out of other hosts... 
"

As I've said before, we can attach conditions onto the use of our 
domain name. Those conditions will not impede freedom of speech but
will respect the USENET communities wishes. (Ie: Only post to 
appropriate news groups).

">Free Speech is fine, and we support it, but to insure an orderly net, 
">topics must be placed where they belong. 
"
"
"Free Speech is fine, and we support it also, but to insure an orderly
"net, topics must be placed where they belong, and effort must be taken
"to ensure that the net is not used as a cheap media for (for lack of
"better terms) 'furthering one's causes'. The net did not tolerate the
"various headhunters, commercialization efforts, or other abusers.  Is
"60 messages a day, each and every one filled with insults, insults, and
"more insults, and posted to 10 groups, Free Speech? If so, Bring Back
"the Headhunters! Bring back the Commercializers! B1FF, ARF, and B-Cpu
"can't be far behind.

Understood. Remember, like I said, nothing is coming THROUGH our site. 
He's only posting it with our address in the path header so as to 
receive mail back. (The kind of mail he probably gets, I'm sure he 
doesn't want). Again, I will be discussing with him and the admin at
anadolu, the appropriate groups for the discussion of the Turk-Armenian
issue. Respecting such a list will be a condition that will have to 
be met if posts with our domain name will continue to be sanctioned. 

"
">Several sites have tried to email-bomb  Mutlu's site in the past few
">days. The efforts were thwarted and the result was one suspended college
">student and one who, after repeated abuses was THROWN OUT of college.
">Several others are under investigation by their sysadmins.
">
">May I remind you all that email-bombings fall under the Federal Computer
">Fraud and Abuse Act as well as most state laws and laws in most western 
">nations. Our site will prosecute those who tie up our network links
">with terrorist traffic.
"
"I wonder if you'll prosecute people who tie up the net with useless,
"forged-headers-galore, crossposted-to-eternity articles, using their
"$20 a month subscription to your machine to 'further their cause' via Usenet.
"I also wonder if people posting from non-existing, non-traceable
"hosts will also be 'prosecuted'.
"
"For the last year at least, Mutlu has easily accounted for half or
"more of trafic to soc.culture.(greek turkish soviet), soc.history,
"talk.politics.mideast, etc etc etc. Another 25 per cent or so were
"articles of people posting Mutlu related material. These articles were
"propagated to all over the civilized world, all costing Mutlu 20
"dollars a month (or whatever). How about the cost to the rest of the
"world? News.lists stats had Mutlu consistenly among the top 10 Usenet
"posters, second only to automated weather statistics postings.
"

So far, I haven't seen any "forgeries". The crosspostings, I have seen.
I am addressing that issue now. They won't be tolerated, if they are
out of bounds of reason. As for posting from non-traceable hosts, There
is nothing I can do about that, but I oppose it.
 

">Any e-mail to "anadolu.michigan.com" will end up coming right back to
">the sender as I've deconfigured that site from our mailer. Also, checks
">at our ISP's mailer will alert their staff and we'll bounce that mail
">back to you. At this time, due to problems at our end, YOU CANNOT 
">REACH MR MUTLU AT ANADOLU.MICHIGAN.COM. 
"
"At no time to my knowledge we have been able to reach Mutlu at the
"address above.  Mutlu would not cooperate or adhere to commonly
"followed practices in Usenet, such as posting to relevant news groups,
"following up by e-mail if possible, avoiding cross-posting, and using
"non-flammable material for his articles. After michigan.com stopped
"providing feed to anadolu.michigan.com, the whole issue of emailing
"there is a non-sequiteur as, as we all know, we can't send mail to non
"existing hosts.
"

anadolu.MICHIGAN.COM is a valid hostname, its just temporarly inaccessible
due to problems on our end. It would be the same if SMTP send you back
a message saying "HOST NOT REACHABLE FOR 20 DAYS - MAIL BEING RETURNED". 

">Lets all just respect each other's rights and stay away from the nasties. 
"
"In a Mutlu context, the use of the word respect is an oxymoron. He has
"not respected any of the policies or principles upon which Usenet was
"founded 12 years ago. He has used just about all the tactics in the
"book (forger headers, posting from non existing hosts, insults,
"intimidation, ignoring pleas to stop, using the net for personal
"propaganda, forging host names/user ids, generating tremendous volumes
"of repeated material, posting tremendous volumes of copyrighted
"material (yea, he references them properly, too)), and everything else
"I can think of to 'further his cause' at everyone else's expense.
"
"Sure, he has a right to post. But the rest of the net has a right NOT
"to be subjected to the practices above. Enough is Enough. 
"
"I can understand your position; he's your customer and as such you
"want to keep him satisfied. But please think of the consequences to
"the rest of the net of what Mutlu does thru your system. It is your
"right to have him as customer, it is his right to post as much as
"he wants to wherever he wants, and it is our (collectively I hope)
"right to complain ad infinitum about him.... 
"

Mr. Mutlu is not a customer of mine. He his a user on a system which 
receives a feed from our site. Again, he is NOT POSTING THROGH OUR
SYSTEMS. At this time, he is basically advertising our site as a 
return path to his system for e-mail purposes. Although mail will 
bounce, thats because of difficulties at our end, not because his 
system doesn't exist. ("his system" == "the one he posts from"). 
 
Again, don't complain to me. I have no control over him. I will be
discussing with him and his admin, the appopriate use of crossposting
if they are to continue to have permission to use our domain in said
postings. Thats all that I can do.
 
John Palmer.


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