HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: sdoe@nmsu.edu (Stephen Doe)
Subject: Re: iq<->religion: connection?
Organization: New Mexico State University
Distribution: world,public
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 00:47:30 GMT

In article <1992Dec28.224544.782@prime.mdata.fi> iikkap@mits.mdata.fi (Iikka Paavolainen) writes:
>In article <2934646808.0.p00168@psilink.com> p00168@psilink.com (James F. Tims) writes:
>>Here is a brief summary of some studies, which I am sure will interest
>>no one on this thread.  For every study there is the counterargument
>>that it proves nothing. 
>
>[studies deleted]
>
>Thank you *very* much, the posting was very resourceful.
>Nice to see people who bother to post info they have.

Yes it is.  It would have been nice if you had done the same, instead
of flaming the people who asked you to do so.

SD
Xref: sparky alt.atheism:24824 talk.religion.misc:25009 alt.pagan:14866
From: cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
Subject: Re: Bible translations, or Does God Speak Latin?
Newsgroups: alt.atheism,talk.religion.misc,alt.pagan
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Keywords: Catholic, Latin, Bible
Date: 3 Jan 93 23:08:07 GMT

In article <C09stH.J02.1@cs.cmu.edu> drake+@cs.cmu.edu (Drake) writes:
>
>Yes...saying Masses in English was, I think, one reason for the Church's
>downfall; when they were in Latin, they were beautiful, they were
>mysterious, and they were powerful.  Now every Tom, Dick and Harry can
>actually understand what the priest has really been saying all these
>years, and it doesn't sound so nice anymore.

I sure as hell hope you're being sarcastic, but in case you're not . . .

Are you nuts?  Where the hell is the beauty in hearing someone babble
gibberish at you and sitting there bored for an hour while he does it,
with his back turned to you all the time?  How the hell am I supposed
to gain enlightenment if I can't understand what the hell is being said?
Excuse me, but any church is MADE UP of Toms, Dicks, and Harrys, and
even a few Janes and Marys, and it's about goddamned time they could
understand what was being said.  If is hearing stuff babbled at you that
you don't understand means "power" to you, then just get plowed and read
the dictionary backwards.  

You make it sound like the "downfall" of the church is due to something
like, "Damn!  Now that they can actually UNDERSTAND us and know what
we're up to, they don't like it!"  Too bad.

Blessings,
Janis  

Newsgroups: alt.atheism,talk.religion.misc
From: drake+@cs.cmu.edu (Drake)
Subject: Re: Christian racism
Keywords: Christian racism depiction of christ
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1993 10:32:18 GMT

martin@cs.curtin.edu.au (Martin Dougiamas) writes:

>Other things that bother me is the complete absence of any mention
>in the bible of things happening in other great civilizations of
>the world.  Do the Pyramids crack a mention?  Is there a single
>reference to the great achievements of the Chinese?

It's all right, Martin.  Other great civilizations get back at them by
rarely mentioning anything in the Bible.  The Egyptian captivity and
exodus goes unmentioned in Egyptian records.  The cruci-fiction finds no
support in Roman records and is even contradicted by Jewish records.
It's about par for the course for them, I imagine.

-- 
Love and Laughter,             | NOTE: Private mail must go explicitly
Xeper and Remanifest,          | to drake@seismo.soar.cs.cmu.edu
                       DRAKE   | or it'll bounce back to you...
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
From: mam@jcnpc.cmhnet.org (Mike A. McAngus)
Subject: Re: Quotes from the Bible.
Organization: Homebrew Virtual Reality Labs
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 08:09:20 GMT

HEATHER LEE FYFFE (910773f@axe.acadiau.ca) wrote:
: In article <BzCy0o.1v8@apollo.hp.com> stave@apollo.hp.com (Joel H. Stave) wri
tes:

[deletion of another round of the pi=3 argument]

:   >>|> The sun revolves around the earth
: >Somewhere it mentions that God stops the sun in the sky.  It didn't
: >say that the sun *seemed* to stop moving in the sky, so it must be
: >literally moving, so it must go around the earth, rather than the
: >earth move around a stationary sun.
:
:
: Yeah, that's what it says, in Joshua (I don't know offhand exactly where).
: Once again though, remember that this was written by a man (Joshua himself I
: believe, though I may be wrong), and for all the evidence he saw, the sun
: stopped moving.  I'm sure we all, as children, thought the sun moved until
: someone explained to us how WE are the ones moving... Well, noone had
: explained it to Joshua, as noone had figured it out yet.  This statement by
: a man is again no reason to conclude that God thinks the sun revolves around
: the Earth.
:
:
: >
: >One thing to note.  In the various arguments that I have had with
: >people who believe the bible word for word, they invariably interperet
: >what it says and twist the meanings to fit the facts.  In *no* case
: >have I ever been able to get them to admit that they are twisting the
: >words and not taking it literally any more.  The above interpretation
: >of the pi = 3 problem is a perfect example.
:
:
: You're exactly right.  People will often twist the words to suit their own
: meaning,  However, this is not necessary.  Taken in historical context, most
: seeming questions explain themselves away.
:
:
: Buzzard

Since you're one for looking at the historical context, why is it that no-one 
else noticed that the sun stopped turning on its axis?  For some people they 
would have noticed that the day was extra long, while others would have 
wondered why the dawn didn't arrive.

Mike McAngus
-- 
(mam@jcnpc.cmhnet.org) I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the 
whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law
respection an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise 
thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State." Jefferson
From: David.Rice@ofa123.fidonet.org
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Satan, of course
X-Sender: newtout 0.05 Dec 30 1992
Date: 01 Jan 93  10:50:04

Who: locklin@titan.ucc.umass.edu (Scott Locklin )
What: <1992Dec29.042329.24708@sol.ctr.columbia.edu>
 
SL> "Organization: Campus Crusade for Cthulhu"
 
Great organization. Do you accept non-virgins?
 
SL> "I am curious. David Rice challenged some fundie bigot to
SL> produce some decent example of "Satanic Crime" (i.e. use of
SL> fundie children for firewood, child molestation, snuff-cults
SL> etc) other than the examples cooked up by Mike Warnke &
SL> company's collective imagination. He promised it (if we
SL> treated him nicely) by the end of december.
SL>
SL> I am curious; did this joker come up with the goods? I'd like
SL> to hear the "facts"!
 
I've kept my eyes open looking for the promissed material, but
it hasn't crossed the bit-stream, or I missed it. If he sent it
to my e-mail box, I most likely WILL lose it, as the box is
deleted every few hours or so (dunno why).
 
My concern, and one of the issues I wished to address, was his
claim that a member of his church fled her Satanist husband,
bringing her daughter with her, to his church, because her
husband planned on sacrificing the daughter to Satan, with the
help of his Satanist buddies.
 
This woman fled to CHURCH?!?!? Not the nearest law enforcement
office?! I find this tale to be quite a bit unbelievable. Yet I
am eager to examine the evidence.
 
What the Pro-Satanic-Conspiracy Christians fail to understand is
that most law enforcement officers dearly love to help women and
children out of danger--- that's why they're in the profession.
If they would go to the police department and say "My husband is
a murdering Satanist and he wants to kill my little girl," they
will not tell her to get lost.
 
The way it was explained to me is that Christians do not report
Satanic sacrifices to law enforcement becase law enforcement is
part of the Satanic Conspiracy.
 
I have found several murders commited in Satan's name, though one
must span several decades to find a dozen. I have found a hundred
murders, maimings and beatings in the name of Jesus for every
like crime in the name of Satan. In the child molestation department,
Christian clergy leads the field third only to Daddy and Monny's
boy friend. Jews are the lest likely, right next to atheists.
 
In my next "Satanic Crime" post I'll post the statistics, and
how they were compiled.
 
SL> -Scott

--- Maximus 2.01wb
From: czl30@duts.ccc.amdahl.com (Chris Lee)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Re: Is Santa Claus God?
Date: 27 Dec 92 07:06:31 GMT
Reply-To: czl30@DUTS.ccc.amdahl.com (Chris Lee)
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA

In article <1992Dec23.174006.5982@cs.tcd.ie> ahmed@cs.tcd.ie (El-Habbash Ahmed) writes:
>
>Isn't this a lie to say that God is impossible thing ?
>All these things within ourselves and around us do not tell that there
>is a possibility of a creator !!!???
>

Not a good start. First define "God". Before you call atheists liars,
just think how you would like it if I called followers of your religion
liars for saying that your particular god exists, and on your board.

You'd better be prepared for some serious flamage.

>
>Ahmed.

And what created your creator?

Chris
Newsgroups: alt.atheism,talk.religion.misc
From: drake+@cs.cmu.edu (Drake)
Subject: Re: Removing "god" from morality.
Keywords: justice
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 03:28:20 GMT

jmunch@hertz.elee.calpoly.edu (John Munch) writes:

>ultimate conclusion. I agree that children and young adults are still
>going through a lot of mental development, and some people never
>develop understanding of the value of "just" behavior. To me this lends
>to my argument that the parent needs to continually explain the value
>of just behavior, answer the child's questions, and set a good example.

In most circumstance, just behavior leads to benefits to the actor (even
if it be avoidance of detriments).  There are some circumstances where this
is not true.  Do you propose teaching the illusion that just behavior is
somehow inherently good, regardless of the situation?  The "children and
young adults" do not need to somehow advance beyond egoism; it is desirable
that they comprehend the ways in which just behavior will benefit them.  Is
this what you are saying?

>This means teach the child that they are responsible for the 
>consequences of their actions.

In most cases, they are.  In some cases, they will not be or will not need
to be.  What benefit is gained by taking responsibility where doing so will
not benefit yourself?

>know what thy right hand doeth." Basically, I agree that for people who
>are too weak or lazy to think for themselves, religion is a good
>alternative. I hope there is someway to help them strengthen mentally.

Yes, I believe you are correct...there is a way to help them, but it requires
that they want to be helped.  Most people in the situation you describe don't
even want to think for themselves.  The German soldier of Nazi Germany
expressed their thoughts well: "We Germans are so lucky.  We are free from
freedom."  You might find _The True Believer_ by Eric Hoffer to be a good
basic study on this phenomenon.

-- 
Love and Laughter,             | NOTE: Private mail must go explicitly
Xeper and Remanifest,          | to drake@seismo.soar.cs.cmu.edu
                       DRAKE   | or it'll bounce back to you...
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
From: sieferme@stein.u.washington.edu (Eric Sieferman)
Subject: Re: Is Santa Claus God?
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 20:42:26 GMT

In article <1992Dec23.174006.5982@cs.tcd.ie> ahmed@cs.tcd.ie (El-Habbash Ahmed) writes:
[snip]
>
>>Maybe it paves the way to believing in other impossible things 
>>later in life -- like God, fer instance.
>
>Isn't this a lie to say that God is impossible thing ?

Not a "lie"; maybe a mistake, if one makes an honest error.
Whether God is an "impossible" thing depends upon how
"God" is defined.  How do you define "God"?

>All these things within ourselves and around us do not tell that there
>is a possibility of a creator !!!???

No.  And even if one postulates such a supernatural "creator",
it is far from obvious which (if any) religious tradition
best represents this "creator".

-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------
       A Lie is still a Lie, even if you believe it.
---------------------------------------------------------------
From: onar@hsr.no (Onar Aam)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Re: YO! READ THIS (not an answer, a question) (WAS: Re: Truth)
Date: 21 Dec 92 13:31:18 GMT
Organization: Rogaland University Centre

>|> 
>|> 1.	There is only one Truth.  One way the universe was created, one
>|> correct way to believe, one way to be Right.  
>|

If there are any absolute truth then the only one must be that there are no
such thing as absolute truth.



Onar.
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
From: simon@dcs.warwick.ac.uk (Simon Clippingdale)
Subject: Merry Christmas Saudi Arabian Style (from s.r.i)
Organization: Department of Computer Science, Warwick University, England
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 17:24:40 GMT

Thought y'all might find this article, culled from soc.religion.islam,
interesting. Those threads they have over there with titles like "Is it
OK to kill <insert group here>?" always tickle me (anyone remember the
stuff about dropping homosexuals off cliffs?).

Ho ho ho, as we say around this time of year.

***************************** begin quoted article ****************************

Newsgroups: soc.religion.islam
From: spectre@uiuc.edu (Ian)
Subject: Is it okay under Orthodox Islamic teaching to kill non-Muslim dakwa people?
Originator: zeeshan@occs.cs.oberlin.edu (Zeeshan Hasan -Moderator)
Organization: Oberlin College Computer Science
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 20:07:47 GMT
X-Posted-From: occs.cs.oberlin.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

Asalamulaikum.

I read this article (included below) today. I have heard sentiments
from American Muslims that it's not proper under Islam to kill dakwa
people of other religions (unless they attack you physically). Is this
an orthodox Islamic belief, or is it just a reflection upon the fact
that these Muslims who voiced this opinion are Americans, and American
culture cherishes religious freedom? If American Muslims (or Muslims of
any other nationality for that matter) have proofs (scripture) to back
up that position, or if others have proofs to back up the other
position, could you email me with them? Thank you.

Wassalam,
Ian

------ Ramos appeals to Saudi Arabia king for Filipino preacher

MANILA, Philippines (UPI) President Fidel Ramos Tuesday appealed to Saudi
Arabia's King Fahd to pardon a Filipino born-again preacher scheduled to be
hung on Christmas Day in Riyadh.

``I wish to make a personal appeal to Your Royal Highness to spare Oswaldo
Magdangal from execution,'' Ramos said in a letter to the monarch. ``As you
know, 25 December is observed as a universal day of peace and forgiveness. I
believe that the significance of the season would not be missed by Your Majesty.''

Magdangal has been accused of preaching the Christian faith in Saudi Arabia,
a Muslim country. Aside from Ramos' letter, the government also instructed
the Philippine ambassador to Saudi Arabia to help secure Magdangal's release.
-- 
---                                      Xtrek is lovely, dark and deep.
God is gracious = Yahya = Yochanan =        But I have promises to keep,
Johannes = John = Jean = Jan = Ian     And megs to write before I sleep,
Internet: chai@cs.uiuc.edu             And megs to write before I sleep.

**************************** end quoted article *******************************

Christmas Cheer

Simon

The Truth is the Truth even if you choose to ignore it. Discuss.
-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
          "If only his fear were of the eternal flames of hell
             perhaps he would open his mind up to reality."
        -- Dennis Bednarek on talk.religion.misc, 16 Dec 1992
From: joeb@arden.linet.org (Joe Beiter)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Re: iq<->religion: connection?
Date: 29 Dec 92 19:52:46 GMT
Distribution: world,public
Organization: The Courts of Chaos

In article <1992Dec28.115039.22563@prime.mdata.fi> iikkap@mits.mdata.fi (Iikka Paavolainen) writes:
>In article <1992Dec28.044250.11398@nmsu.edu> sdoe@nmsu.edu (Stephen Doe) writes:
>>You have IQ scores on 1000 people?  You have an accurate idea of how
>>religious every one of these 1000 people are?  If you've done such a
>>study, great, tell us more.  But I hope these are not just
>>"impressions" you have gained from casual observations.
>
>Being very interested in psychology, I like to 'analyse' people I meet. Using
>the method of elimination on the masses is an easy process.
>

So what are you trying to say?  That there was no IQ<-->Athesim study actually
and that you just said this to see what kind of responses you'd get?


-- 
|-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-|
|Joe.Beiter@arden.linet.org               The Long Island Network Project   |
|The Courts of Chaos Semi-Public Access   Long Island New York: USA         |
|-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-|
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
From: joeb@arden.linet.org (Joe Beiter)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Re: The Bible As A Rorschach
Date: 2 Jan 93 03:28:22 GMT
Organization: The Courts of Chaos

In article <76031@apple.apple.COM> mikel@Apple.COM (Mikel Evins) writes:
>In article <1992Dec30.234815.25495@arden.linet.org> joeb@arden.linet.org (Joe Beiter) writes:
>
>You'll have to either specify which atheists you are talking about
>or define 'so convinced' then, because the level of conviction
>varies from one atheist to another.

the ones that are convinced there is no God.

>>The point (and suggestion) was that the apostles fudged the story of the
>>Christ and his ressurection.  We would not be talking about "Shiites dieing
>>for their faith" but we'd be talking about people dieing for something
>>they knew was a lie or comprimised truth.  BIG DIFFERENCE.
>
>Nevertheless, I don't think it is so well established that people
>would not die to defend a fudged story that martyrdom can be
>used as proof that a story wasn't fabricated. More precisely, I
>would want to see very convincing evidence that people will never
>die to defend a fabricated story before I would consider such an
>argument to be compelling.

True I could be wrong.  I just can't see the motive.  I could see maybe
one or prehaps even a couple of related insane acts like that but not 15.

>>There is only one reality.  Someone is wrong (be they atheist or Christian or
>>muslum).
>
>Do you have a compelling argument that there is only one reality, or
>are we meant to take the assertion on faith?

hmmm actually no.  Just personal observation.  Science is devoted to
that subject isn't it?  Seeking the true nature of things over the perceived
one?  Once people said reality was a flat world that the universe revolved
around.  Later we found out reality was something quite different.

this could get quite messy but *I* see it as the root of the issue.  Atheism
presents one reality while Christianity (at least for me) presents another.
The way I see it, toss out the philosophical 'perspective' crap then only
one is right (or both are wrong).

>I think one can go further than this. Given that God knows what sort
>of interpreters we are, he must be a lousy communicator.

assuming it was not intentional........



-- 
|-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-|
|Joe.Beiter@arden.linet.org               The Long Island Network Project   |
|The Courts of Chaos Semi-Public Access   Long Island New York: USA         |
|-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-|
Newsgroups: alt.atheism,talk.religion.misc
From: scruggs@zeus.franklin.edu (Kevin Scruggs)
Subject: Re: THE MIND OF THE BIBLE BELIEVER
Organization: Franklin University (Columbus, OH)
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1992 15:32:50 GMT

In article <1992Dec25.062535.15984@nmsu.edu> usenet@nmsu.edu writes:
>
>Well, I just posted part 5 of the series, which is the final article.
>(On Xmas Eve yet!  But if I hadn't finished it now, I probably never
>would have.)  It occurs to me that many who might be interested in
>this series may miss some of the articles, due to being away during
>Xmas.  If you let me know I'll e-mail you copies of any of the
>articles you might require; or perhaps I should re-post the relevant
>articles after the beginning of the new semester, for those who won't
>return until then.  At any rate, I'm looking forward to any comments
>people might have on the ideas contained in this summary.
>
>SD
	If there is an atheist/christian archive site(s) you might want
to upload the whole thing there...



-- 
	|||				...Your future hasn't been written yet.
       / | \				   No one's has. Your future is what 
    =Mysh+Krysa=			   you make it...    
							   -Emmet L. Brown-
From: bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Robert Beauchaine)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Re: IQ scores
Date: 29 Dec 92 05:46:31 GMT
Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Beaverton,  OR.

In article <ednclark.725159573@kraken> ednclark@kraken.itc.gu.edu.au (Jeffrey Clark) writes:
>bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Robert Beauchaine) writes:
>
>
>
>Why, what's wrong with posting IQ scores? 

  There's nothing wrong with it.  It's merely a self defeating form
  of argument.  Many will immediately turn you off if you quote your
  score and no one has asked for it.

> What is wrong is implying that
>this figure somehow makes you a superior person or that the figure somehow
>lends weight to your argument.

  Which is invariably how invoking your IQ score is viewed.

/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ 

Bob Beauchaine bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM 

"Look, I tried the cat experiment.  On the third trial, the cat was
dead.  On each of the subsequent 413 trials, it remained dead.  Am I
doing something wrong?"
			James Nicoll

Q.  How many Heisenbergs does it take to screw in a light bulb?
A.  If you know the number, you don't know where the light bulb is!
From: martin@cs.curtin.edu.au (Martin Dougiamas)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Genital-grabbing
Summary: Here's a good one...
Keywords: humor
Date: 1 Jan 93 17:36:45 GMT
Organization: Curtin University of Technology

I was just browsing through the bible (Good News version) and came
across this little gem:

"If two men are having a fight and the wife of one tries to 
 help her husband by grabbing hold of the other man's 
 genitals, show her no mercy; cut off her hand."
	- Deuteronomy 25:11-12

Wonder if the bloke who penned that one had any personal grudge
he wanted to have sorted out?  :-)

Martin
--
Your eyes are weary from staring at the screen.  Your eyelids feel very heavy.
You feel sleepy. Notice how restful it is to watch the cursor blink. Close your
eyes. The opinions stated above are yours. You cannot imagine why you ever felt
otherwise.  When you awake you will follow up this post and enthusiastically
agree with it.  Then you will send all your money to martin@cs.curtin.edu.au.