From: spk@uk.ac.aber (Stephen Kingston)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: Security of salvation?
Date: 12 Oct 92 16:49:13 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Dept., University of Wales at Aberystwyth.

NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET (Jesse Carnes) wrote:
> Dear Stephen ;
> 
> Would you indeed LIKE to lose your Salvation?
> Is that want you desire??

Of course not.
> 
> Look, just do this  ... Tell me in context, what Jesus is saying in John
> 6:38-40 and from John 10 when He says that they shall NEVER die.
> What do His words mean in context?
> you are at liberty to exegete these if you wish.

Okay, my view is as follows (some will no doubt disagree).

6:38 - Christ shows in this passage that he has come not to do his will 
but rather to do his Father's will. He is wholly submitted to the Father,
and we see in such great passages as John 17 that it is Christ's will only
to glorify God in his ministry.

6:39 - Now we see what the Father's will truly is. It is the will of the 
Father that Christ should save sinners to God's eternal glory. The cross 
is central to all of Christ's work because it is through the cross that 
he achieves the Father's will and thus completes his own work. It is 
through the cross that God is glorified, and the Spirit also glorifies
Christ (again see John 17). 

But who are to be saved? Not every man on Earth, but rather all of those 
who are given to Christ. Not one of those who will be saved by Christ 
will be lost. At the last day, all those who are saved through the work 
of Christ at the cross will indeed be saved. Thus we can speak of an elect
who will be saved and who will never lose that salvation. (See my ONCE
SAVED essay for more details on this).

40 - Now we see which group constitutes the elect. "All who seeth the 
Son, and believeth on him". The phrase "believeth on him" can imply 
more then a simple mental acknowledgment of the existance of Jesus. In 
fact, contextually it must do, for otherwise these words of Christ would
be a nonsense.

What Christ says in effect is all who believe that he is "God's annointed
one", the Christ, the redeemer, the one who takes away the sin of the 
world.

Those who can see that Jesus had God's divine seal of approval (as 
demonstrated by his ressurection), those who make a decision to follow
him (on the human level at least), those to whom God has revealed the 
truth of the message of Jesus Christ's work for them on the cross. These
people are the elect. It is by the gracious gift of this knowledge, 
this faith, that God has saved them.

All who believe - all who have faith - will be raised up on the last 
day. We are saved by faith, and once saved we will always be saved.

This is my (very brief) exegesis of John 6:38-40. It would be wholly 
wrong of me to suggest that is anywhere near all that I could draw 
from those verses, but it certainly provides a starting point for a
more thorough work.

Now you suggest I do the same for John 10. If I did so I would be 
here all night, but I think you get the message which I wrote in my 
original post, that I believe in the perseverence of the saints, as 
do you.

That is not to say all people share our conclusions. 

You believe in the limited atonement, whereas I do not. I do not then
say that I am convinced you are simply blind to plain scriptural truth.
There are some verses which might lend credence to such a theory. (You
might review Craig Johnson's excellent post if you still have it).

No, I know that you are an honest and sincere Christian. You are 
seeking to know God's truth and apply it in your own life, and that 
you sincerely believe the atonement was limited to the elect. Now I
have come to a different conclusion. We can discuss those differences,
but we should be careful to acknowledge that the point of view of 
other people may be closer to the truth then our own.

I am not, of course, talking about fundamental truths such as the 
deity of Christ, or justification by faith alone. These are beyond 
dispute; but the extent of the atonement, and the perseverence of 
the saints are two theological points which have more to do with 
assurance then justification. I firmly believe my position to be 
correct, but I will not deny that other views can be validly held.

This is what I was saying in my previous post.
> 
> Jesse Carnes

Stephen.
-- 
Gweleis i rac neb nym gweles pop annwyl. ef diwyl yneges. Gweleis i pasc.
(I saw the one above all men,  he saw me;  he, the beloved of his people,
who fulfills his mission. I saw Easter.) "Yspeil Taliesin" ---Taliesin---
spk@uk.ac.aber --- spk%uk.ac.aber@nsfnet-relay.ac.uk --- Stephen Kingston