HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: farmern@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Neil Farmer)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: questions
Summary: what are the rivers like in America?
Keywords: Grand Canyon kayak raft
Date: 14 Apr 92 12:16:04 GMT
Organization: Glasgow University Computing Science Dept.

Living in the UK I was interested to find out more about the kayaking and 
rafting in Nothern America.
We have very little rafting here as the rivers are of (fairly) small volume
and often narrow with tight gorges.Are all the rivers there paddled by both 
rafts and kayaks? is canadian canoing realy popular there? What are the realy 
famous rivers like, in volume and technical difficulty, and is the Grand Canyon
a good paddle for a kayak, how hard is this? Do you have 'waterfall rivers',
we have a 'classic' here in Scotland called the river Etive, a series of 
15-20 Waterfalls from 2+ -> 8/9 Meters (10-30 feet) and large splash pools!
Has anyone been out to Northern Norway? We are planning an expedition there next
summer (93) to paddle the rivers and climb some of the huge rock and ice walls
in the area.
Is Canoe Polo popular in America? Quite a following here and it is realy an 
excellent sport!	
Be interested to hear from you,

cheers Neil Farmer.
<farmern@dcs.Glasgow.ac.uk>
From: ead@netcom.com (Eric De Mund)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: seeking boundary waters canoe area info
Date: 17 Apr 92 03:52:55 GMT
Organization: netcom

rec.boats.paddle people,

i'm thinking about a canoe trip this spring. can someone send me info
on the boundary waters canoe area? their address and phone number
would be a good start. an ftp site with trip reports, etc., would be
even better.

thank you,
eric de mund
ead@netcom.com
From: lee@wang.com (Lee Story)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: Re: what kayak should I get?
Date: 16 Apr 92 14:14:29 GMT
	<1992Apr13.195554.12743@ncar.ucar.edu> <54560@hydra.gatech.EDU>
	<1992Apr14.171418.6531@colorado.edu> <kuohnsINNbbn@paris>
Distribution: usa
Organization: Wang Laboratories, Inc.


(a.e.mossberg) writes:
   It sounds like kevlar is probably the best material, but also most
   expensive.

Most expensive, yes.  Best, maybe.  Kevlar is much stronger and more
flexible than glass fiber.  This means you get a wonderfully light
boat (my Bigfoot is about 20 lb.), but in a bad pin it's more likely
to wrap and less likely to split apart and let you escape.
(Delamination is even more of a problem than with glass, though.)
And it's much harder to prepare Kevlar to accept a repair patch,
though compared to crosslinked poly it's a breeze.

Does anyone know how they stick the halves of Dagger kayaks together?
Melt the edges together??  (One fellow I paddle with occasionally had
his Crossfire split on the seam last year---Dagger replaced it without
much fuss.)
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Lee Story (lee@wang.com) Wang Laboratories, Inc.
              (Merrimack Valley Paddlers)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: brianj@bedrock.cs.umd.edu (Brian Johnson)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: Re: Wanted: Defense of Rafting
Date: 8 Apr 92 17:29:29 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Computer Science, Univ. of MD, College Park, MD 20742
In-reply-to: scs8@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu's message of 8 Apr 92 05:14:28 GMT

I can get paid to be a raft guide, and then buy a *newer* and even
*smaller* kayak with the cash - and still be on the water the whole time:-)
--
Brian Johnson                                       Computer Science Department
brianj@cs.umd.edu                                        University of Maryland
(301) 405-2725                                           College Park, Md 20742

  ...there are no strangers in this world, only friends who have never met...
From: chris@chinook.atd.ucar.edu (Chris Webster)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: Re: what kayak should I get?
Date: 13 Apr 92 19:55:54 GMT
Reply-To: chris@chinook.atd.ucar.edu
Organization: Research Aviation Facility, NCAR, Boulder, CO


The Dancer is a good beginner/intermediate boat.  You should be
able to get a used setup (boat, paddle, spray skirt, life jacket,
helmut) in reasonably good shape for about $600.  As for what boat
is best, I consider that fairly irrelevant.  Get a boat and learn
to paddle that boat, when you realize it's limitations, get another
one.  Some input on boats I have paddled:

Corsica:   High inertia boat (slow), very stable (weebles wobble but
           they never fall over).
Dancer:    Good all around boat, can't carve a turn for shit.
Crossfire: Responded most predictably compared to my slolam boat.
Excel:     Very fast, good performer.

Note: I have owned a Dancer & Corsica, Crossfire & Excel I only paddled
about an hour each.

If I were going to own only one boat, it would be the Wave Sports Excel
(Lazer if you are lighter than 160lbs).

--Chris
From: tut@cairo.Eng.Sun.COM (Bill "Bill" Tuthill)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: this year's rafts
Date: 10 Apr 92 22:35:03 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems Inc., Mountain View, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: cairo

Now that we've morally justified rafting, and the tupperheads have
wasted network bandwidth talking about new boats from Perception that
still don't surpass the Dancer, it's time for the annual Beer Consumer
Report on rafts.  Only 13-14' self-bailers are covered, since this is
the most versatile size, and since nowadays only poor folks have to
deal with non-self-bailers.  One nice thing we've discovered about a
self-bailer is that the baby can nap on the floor!

The Maravias wins all races, downriver and slalom.  That's because
they are the lightest and have the smoothest hulls.  However, note
that Sotars have the longest guarantee and are outlasting all other
brands in rental operations.  At this point the overpriced Avon is
definitely coasting on its reputation, although it is lighter than
equivalent Hypalon boats.  The new NRS boats (made in Mexico) are not
listed because of unknown fabric content and uncompetitive warranty.
Boats listed in order of size.

			Self-Bailing Rafts

		length	width	weight	tubes	center	construction	price
		-----	-----	-----	-----	-----	------------	-----
Hyside SB	12'11"	6'2"	125#	19.5"	34x40	Hyp 1050/1260	$2590
Sotar II	13'0"	6'2"	105#	19"	34x40	Lex 2000/3360	$3800
Avon Drifter?	13'0"	6'3"	110#	18.25"	35x40	Hyp  840/1680	$3995
AIRE 130	13'0"	6'4"	120#	18"	40x40	PVC 3300/6600	$2495
Marav. New Wave	13'6"	6'3"	 88#	17"	38x48	Ure 1200/1200	$2850
Riken Miwok SB	13'6"	6'8"	159#	19"	41x41	Hyp  840/1200	$3155
Marav. Williwaw	14'0"	6'8"	112#	20"	40x42	Ure 1200/1200	$3693
Sotar II	14'0"	6'8"	125#	20"	42x44	Lex 2000/3360	$4100
AIRE 143	14'3"	6'9"	135#	20"	41x40	PVC 3300/6600	$2695
Avon Adventurer	14'2"	7'1"	132#	20.25"	44x42	Hyp  840/1680	$4995
Hyside SB	14'3"	6'10"	153#	21"	44x44	Hyp 1050/1260	$3020

warranties	fabric	seams	workmanship
	Sotar	12 yrs	6 yrs	3 yrs		Lex = urethane on nylon
	Avon	10 yrs	5 yrs	1 yr		Hyp = 80% hypalon on nylon
	Maravia	 5 yrs	5 yrs	5 yrs		Ure = urethane-sprayed dacron
	Riken	 5 yrs	5 yrs	5 yrs		Hyp = 80% hypalon on nylon
	Hyside	 5 yrs	5 yrs	5 yrs		Hyp = 80% hypalon on nylone
	AIRE	 5 yrs	 ?	10 yrs		PVC-coated dacron over bladder
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
From: garnham@convex.csd.uwm.edu (David C Garnham)
Subject: Alden Ocean Shell
Originator: garnham@convex.csd.uwm.edu
Organization: University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1992 20:27:07 GMT


Is this boat still available?  I've heard nothing of it for about 20 years
but now have the conditions to use it.  I think it was made in Maine.  I'd
be interested in any shell-type craft made for use by amateurs in less than
placid water.

Thanks.
-- 
| David Garnham                Internet: garnham@convex.csd.uwm.edu          |
| Political Science Dept.      Bitnet  : garnham%convex.csd.uwm.edu@INTERBIT |
| University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee      (414) 229-4392/4221                 |
| P.O. Box 413, Milwaukee, WI 53201 U.S.A.                                   |
From: neff@diva.Berkeley.EDU (Robert Neff)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: Re: Wild & Scenic and River Preservation
Followup-To: neff@diva.berkeley.edu
Date: 17 Apr 1992 00:33:11 GMT
Organization: /etc/organizaton
Distribution: na
NNTP-Posting-Host: diva.berkeley.edu
Summary: I think it's a good thing

In article <kus2a4INNkcj@exodus.Eng.Sun.COM> tut@cairo.Eng.Sun.COM (Bill "Bill" Tuthill) writes:
>I'm starting to have doubts about the value of Wild & Scenic status
>for accomplishing river preservation.  Kayakers, rafters, and fishermen
>all have a common interest in preserving free-flowing rivers.  But all
>this means is we don't want dams, or channelization, or anything that
>the Army Corpse of Engineers desires to build.
>
...

I will not argue that there are problems with the administration of
wild and scenic rivers, though I must say, the access problems you
describe sound a bit like sour grapes.  That aside, we need ways to 
protect the rivers we treasure, and so far, this is about the 
best means we've found, short of routing the rivers through
National Parks.  There is a tremendous amount of money that
can be made in harnessing rivers, by diverting the water, or by
producing power.  Without the wild and scenic designation, or 
some equivalent, how do we keep the dam builders at bay?

-- Robert
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
From: jstewart@alfred.carleton.ca (John Stewart)
Subject: Re: Wanted: Defense of Whitewater Canoeing
Organization: Carleton University
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1992 03:38:34 GMT

In <ku1q4gINN2mv@exodus.Eng.Sun.COM> tut@cairo.Eng.Sun.COM (Bill "Bill" Tuthill) writes:
>So I'm wondering.  Why do people use canoes for whitewater?  On 
>the face, it seems pretty silly.  The canoe is an excellent craft
>for paddling across flatwater.  Its long hull design provides good
>tracking and excellent speed.  It holds lots of camping gear, and
>is easily portaged.  For chains of lakes nothing is better.

You are starting to answer your own question: these are all good reasons
to use canoes on routes that involve several days of travel and/or 
relatively long flatwater sections between rapids.  My choice for the
ultimate whitewater trip would be a multiweek trip down a wilderness
river in Northern Canada.  The canoe is clearly the best choice for
that type of trip.

>But for whitewater?  Come on.  You have to kneel on a part of the
>body that provides no natural cushioning.  This leaves your center
>of gravity high, thus reducing stability.  

   Kneeling can be uncomfortable, but the canoe is far more comfortable
between rapids because you can move your legs around.

   If you are carrying packs this helps lower the center of gravity (at the
cost of reducing your bouyancy).

>You only get to use a
>single-bladed paddle.  

   If you are paddling tandem you can do a brace on both sides of the
canoe.
   
>The thing is hard to turn, which is a major
>disadvantage.  Why not just cut off one hand?  It's unstable and
>hard to roll, even when redesigned for whitewater.

   Unquestionably this is where the kayak excels over the canoe.

>  It's too long
>to use in highly technical rock gardens.  

Personally, I prefer to paddle rivers that contain water.
-- 
John Stewart -- Computing and Communications Services, Carleton University
Internet: jstewart@ccs.carleton.ca or Mr.Canoehead@algonquin.carleton.ca  
"My Canada includes Quebec"
From: ee4grd@castle.ed.ac.uk (G Dods)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: Another Scottish paddler
Date: 15 Apr 92 14:52:59 GMT
Organization: Edinburgh University


	Having read this newsgroup for the first time today I was
pleasantly surprised to see another Scot (or at least another resident
of Scotland) that has the rare (amongst the paddlers I know) ability to
use a computer without breaking into a cold sweat and gibbering. I would
also like to know about rivers on the other side of the Atlantic, I've
seen some photos of rivers in British Colombia and they looked HUGE!
Haystacks as big as houses and stoppers you wouldn't enter without scuba
gear. They can't all be like that can they?

		Graeme Dods

P.S. A wee note to the other Scottish paddler:
	Were you in the canoe polo team that robbed us (Edinburgh
	University) of third place in the Scottish Universities
	Championships. I was the goalie then, and you lot got away with
	a good few obstructions that the ref turned a blind eye to!
From: pino@gammow.berkeley.edu (Jose L. Pino)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: Calling all UCB White Water Paddlers!!!
Date: 14 Apr 1992 21:32:24 GMT
Organization: U.C. Berkeley -- ERL
Distribution: ucb
NNTP-Posting-Host: gammow.berkeley.edu

Does a paddler mailing list exist here at UCB?

If not, I would like to start one.  If you would like to be on the list
please send me:

	Your name
	Type of boat (canoe, kayak, raft, etc)
	Class of white water you paddle

Thanks!
Jose

pino@ohm.berkeley.edu
643-5883
843-7837
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
From: scs8@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Sebastian C Sears)
Subject: Re: New Corsica
Reply-To: scs8@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Sebastian C Sears)
Organization: Columbia University
Distribution: na
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1992 19:58:19 GMT

In article <LEE.92Apr9123848@meercat.wang.com> lee@wang.com (Lee Story) writes:
>In article <1992Apr8.213642.7085@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu> scs8@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Sebastian C Sears) writes:
>	   Just a review for anyone who is wondering about this boat. 
>       [extensive comments on a Corsica]
>Thanks for the notes...only a couple of questions if you'd be so
>kind:  Were your comments about the original Corsica (fairly short but
>high volume), the new Matrix (fairly short, medium volume), or the
>Corsica S (about 6" shorter than the Matrix, a bit lower volume)?
>Also (extra credit:) how much do you weigh?
>
>I'm really interested, because I punched a hole in the bottom of my
>Dancer last weekend (rebar running a small dam), and am looking for a

	^^^^ Bummer!! ^^^^

	Just to answer some questions I've seen:

	The boat I've been talking about is the original Corsica.
	
	It is a pretty slow boat, but that hasn't bothered me yet.

	It turns very fast, regardless of what someone says... it gets into
	eddies fast! It would not be a good race boat, though, because the
	straight line speed leaves a little to be desired, and the high volume
	front would hit gates pretty easily.

	I think it's a really nice boat. I'm big (180#, 6'3") so it's comfort-
	able for me, and I have enough power to get it going fast. I almost
	like having to work hard to get it going fast, makes me feel like I
	have a little more control.

	And yes, it does side-surf like a maniac!! :-)

=Stanley, Idaho===============Sea-Bass Sears====================New York City=
   o  1979 Yamaha XS750|Perception      )    Corsica|     |       1985  Toyota
 _/\_>       Just ride!|->Hey,short  o /  new boat<-||~~~~~~\___       4Runner
O,> /O   e-mail: scs8@ |  ~^~^ (====<\/====) ^~^    ||_--____--_)   Just about
cunixb.cc.columbia.edu |Just  ~^~^~^ / ^~^~^  kayak!|  ()    () anything else!
   Just because you're paranoid, don't mean they're not after you -- Nirvana
==============================-->DoD #0516<--=================================
From: smay@hpdmd48.boi.hp.com (Scott Smay)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1992 15:40:51 GMT
Subject: Nice in theory, better in practice...
Organization: Hewlett Packard - Boise, ID
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle

Somebody writes:

	" She wisely chose to swim, rather than scrape her
head thru a strainer drop.  She easily made it to shore and walked down
to pick up her boat.  Rolling is nice in theory, but..."
                      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Rolling is even better in practice. There are bloody few situations where
it is wise to choose to swim. While inverted kayakers get hurt, swimmers
get hurt more and worse, generally. In the situation described here,
a good roll minimizes the time the head spends in the water and reduces
the chance of injury.

Swim when you're pinned, out of air, or when the only safe place to be is
on shore. Otherwise, just roll up.

My $.02.

scott smay
From: slzm9@cc.usu.edu
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: Wanted: Defense of Asshole Boaters
Date: 14 Apr 92 16:07:08 MDT
Organization: Utah State University

   O.K. I will get flamed for this I know but here goes anyway:

Where did all these recreational cowboys/gals come from? You know 'em
if you aren't one of 'em: they party at the put-in til 3 a.m. (I
got no problem with the partyin' except for the damn stereo which
is cranked until 3 a.m. if they don't pass out and leave it on), they
play their stereo at the take-out for the three hours that they are
there. When asked politely to turn it down a little they say stuff
like "who the fuck made you king of this river, dickhead."
   That's just at the ends of the run. While on the river they cut
you off in eddies if they're in a kayak or a squirt. They stay in
a hole as long as they can no matter how many people are lined up,
and have been lined up for 15 minutes, to get into the hole. They
try to cut into line while you aren't looking.
   If in a raft they just run you over and throw a beer bottle at
you while they are passing by. They take they're porta-potty on
the river to get by the ranger but never use it.
   They usually introduce themselves with the following line, "Whoops,
sorry dude."

   Is there anything that can be done? Sterilization programs of former
horse Rodeo winners? Mandatory lobotomies with the purchase of a
creek boat but no throw rope. Oh I guess they wouldn't need one.

   But seriously, I'm tired of these yahoos. I get to the put-in 
at about 8 p.m. I drink the mandatory case of beer, don't turn
on my stereo and go to bed about midnight. If you are one of these
Reagan/Bush era boaters that think they have no reason to answer
to anyone then speak up. What is wrong with a little common courtesy?
If there are 15 other people camped within 50 feet of you at the put
in then turn your stereo off at midnight. Buy a Walkman if you must.
We don't care what kind of music you listen to, we all have tunes we
like, we don't inflict them on you.

Ok, I'll step off the soap box. Anyone else out there seen more and more
of these jerks showing up on the river or is it just me? What can be
done?  Last weekend at Westwater I asked a person politely at 8 a.m.
on Sunday morning at the take-out to please turn down his stereo.
His answer was a flat, "No." Then he drove off with his companions
leaving his shuttle vehicle there. If I had any destructive inclinations
he would have had a sad surprise that evening about 6 p.m. when
I was sitting quietly at home about 400 miles away laughing quietly
to myself. But I don't so he got away with it. But if you are
one of these boaters think about it: what happens to your vehicle
while you aren't there? What happens when you need a save and your
buddies are long gone and the lady you told to fuck off last night, when
she asked you to turn down your stereo, is the only boater in sight?

   Think about it.

					Endo!Roll!Party!
							Zip

Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
From: zulauf@csn.org (Mike Zulauf)
Subject: Re: what kayak should I get?
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1992 17:14:18 GMT

In article <54560@hydra.gatech.EDU> gt4302c@prism.gatech.EDU (THOMSEN,AXEL) writes:
>Nobody has brought up the quality of the plastic from the different
>manufacturers. In my experience with the various boats from
>Perception, Prijon, Dagger and Wavesport (all owned by our outdoor club)
>the Prijons hold up the best. I've seen busted Corsicas and Lazers (the
>nose split open after a close encounter with a rock) and I've seen worn 
>out Perception boats (worn through underneath the seat). Daggers plastic
>seems to be pretty soft, too.

     Ah yes, that reminds me.  In my original post, I forgot to ask if
all the boats I should consider are plastic (polyuerethane?).  Are only
the more expensive boats fiberglass?  What are the advantages of fiberglass
over plastic?  What are the advantages of plastic over fiberglass>

                          Thanks,
                                 Mike Zulauf
                                 zulauf@orbit.colorado.edu

>
>Axel Thomsen
>Preserve Americas free flowing rivers!
>-- 
>THOMSEN,AXEL
>Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
>uucp:	  ...!{decvax,hplabs,ncar,purdue,rutgers}!gatech!prism!gt4302c
>Internet: gt4302c@prism.gatech.edu
From: tut@cairo.Eng.Sun.COM (Bill "Bill" Tuthill)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: Wild & Scenic and River Preservation
Date: 16 Apr 92 23:09:56 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems Inc., Mountain View, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: cairo

I'm starting to have doubts about the value of Wild & Scenic status
for accomplishing river preservation.  Kayakers, rafters, and fishermen
all have a common interest in preserving free-flowing rivers.  But all
this means is we don't want dams, or channelization, or anything that
the Army Corpse of Engineers desires to build.

Note that organizations promoting Wild & Scenic status are by and large
lobbying groups, who believe in the power of government bureaucracy to
save the environment.  The evidence indicates it may not work that way.
For instance, the Forest Disservice permits more clearcutting than is
practiced on (let's say) Weyerhauser's privately held land.  Also, the
Bureau of Livestock and Mining allows more overgrazing on public land
than most cattlemen (except the Navajo) would practice on private land.
So what's to make us think Wild & Scenic is any different?

In the past few years I've seen access problems increase after a river
segment is declared Wild & Scenic.  For example, the Chama now requires
permits, with no cancellation system.  A convenient 4WD campground 2/3
of the way down Giant Gap was closed, but not cleaned up, when the river
became W&S.  BLM rangers on the Merced are now hassling private boaters,
who they claim are all "pirate" commercial outfitters.  Permits are now
required for one-day kayak trips on the Tuolumne.

Access problems on many federally administered rivers are legendary--
7 year waits on the Grand Canyon, a 2% success rate for Selway permits,
a 5% success rate for Middle Fork Salmon permits, nudity and lifejacket
tickets on the Green and Yampa, etc.  At the same time, you can walk in
anytime and get a spot on a commercial trip.  It appears that W&S rivers
are headed in the same direction.  The only positive outcome I've seen
so far is that the Tuolumne was saved from hydro development.  W&S on
the lower Klamath is not going to save the upper Klamath.
From: mikeq@saab.CNA.TEK.COM (Mike Quigley)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: Re: Defense of Whitewater Rafting, was Canoeing
Date: 8 Apr 92 15:58:27 GMT
Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Redmond,  OR.

>For multi-day trips rafts are great.

Oh, I dunno. Me and my girlfriend regularly take weeklong trips in 2-person
inflatable kayaks (1 each), and live quite comfortably. Better bounce
than rafts and substantially less equipment hassle.  Plus, we get on the
more popular permitted rivers like the Middle Fork, and remote
low-flow rivers like the upper Owyhee, when rafts wouldn't stand a chance.
No people hassles. No campground hassles. No applying for permit hassles.

I can't understand why anyone would want to row a barge, er, raft.

Mike
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Planet Earth. Love it or leave it!
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Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle