From: ghg@en.ecn.purdue.edu (George Goble)
Subject: Re: Concern For Ozone Depletion Clear, Knowledge of CFCs Mostly
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 92 20:01:15 GMT

In article <1740@airgun.wg.waii.com> miller@hmsp04.wg3.waii.com (Griff Miller X7114) writes:
>In article <1992Dec29.202248.21173@en.ecn.purdue.edu> ghg@en.ecn.purdue.edu (George Goble) writes:
>
>>The Lafayette
>>Indiana Ford dealer, wants $1000 for a 30lb cylinder of R-134a.
>
>That's ridiculous. Is there any reason why it should be so high? I mean,
>any good reason? Is R-134a that expensive to manufacture?

Yea, they all wanna make lots of money. R-134a takes 4 times the HF
(hydrofluoric acid) to make as does R-12.. Wholesale on R-134a is
around $9/lb  ($270 for a 30lb cylinder).  There is even some book out
claiming the whole ozone hole thing is a farce, drummed up by DuPont & ICI
(they funded the research?). Now chemical companies can get $10/lb for
"new" refrigerants, protected by fresh patents, and the economies of the
world are "stimulated" replacing hundreds of billions of $$$ in equipment!
CFC-12 (R-12) is only $.50/lb or so (less the ozone taxes, etc).
>
>>PAG oil is destroyed
>>by trace amounts of "chlorides", which includes Freon-12, and "sludges"
>>created in Freon-12 based systems.  "Flush", which is probably R-11
>>or R-113 (used to clean up systems in repair), also attacks the PAG
>>oil. 
>
>So forget ever retrofitting R-134a into an old R12 system.

It is gonna be interesting to see what happens.. Not puttin' -134a
in my car!

I have heard of others running 40/60 R-12/R-134a, in an R-12 system,
using R-12 mineral oil (no PAG oil). The 40% R-12 made the oil return
ok to the compressor.. The R-134a is not the problem, the PAG/ESTER oils
are the problem.  Running 100% R-134a in a R-12 system, with mineral oil,
will cause the oil to migrate to the evaporator and stay there, since
R-134a/mineral oil are not miscible with each other.  The compressor 
will then fail due to lack of oil.  There exist "oil separators"
for fixed equipment, which go in the compressor discharge line, drop
out the oil mist, and return it to the compressor suction line.. They
have a "toilet tank" ball float valve in them, so, I dunno if they 
could take the beating in a car.  A good oil separator would let R-134a
run in an R-12 system (with mineral oil).  In this mode, cooling would be
reduced by 25-30% or so, since -134a is less effecient, and head
pressures would be a little higher.

>
>>1% flush remaining in a R-134a system usually results in compressor
>>failure in < 1 week due to oil breakdown.  R-134a systems have no
>>"approved" flush I know of.. (why doesn't somebody try Isopentane?)..
>
>You're kidding (but I'm afraid you're not). You mean they are making
>AC systems that they haven't figured out a way to flush? Egad.

They are just making inline filters I think.  Also, they (Four-Seasons)
are recommending replacement of evaporators & condensers if they cannot
be cleaned up well enough.. mucho bucks.

>
>Why do you think isopentane would work?

Me & Bill Hardaway, and Deerr's Radiator used it all summer on A/C
flushing.. worked fine.. About 1/10 the price of R-11 (last summer),
probably 1/20 the price now.. Isopentane boils at around 80F, within
a couple of deg of R-11, it is a good solvent.  A 55 gal drum of it
was $460 (99% grade "pure"), from Phillips-66 in Borger, TX.  It is
flammable (like gasoline), so some precautions are in order, like blowing
it out with dry nitrogen, working outside, disconnect the battery, etc.
It should be safe for R-134a & PAG oils, since isopentane, C5H12,
contains no chlorine.  Also ODF 0.
>
>>
>>Wonder how long that wet system will last..?? 2-3 months?
>
>If that long. Then you have a compressor grenade on you and now
>you've got REAL problems.
>
>If what you say about R-134a is true then I see a farce far greater
>than the first GM R4 compressors in the making.

Yea, just think of all the money to be made...by the service industry..
sure sucks doesn't it?  WHen R-12 is gone, and if the blends (GHG/SUVA MP52)
are banned, I will use propane/isobutane in my cars...

>
>>Wonder how long ANY  NEW (non retrofitted) R-134a A/C will last once
>>the local mechanics try to service it?  As John DeArmond would say,
>>"Can't sticker shock happen twice [on the same car]"?
>
>I don't mean to be obtuse (again) but who is this DeArmond fellow?

jgd@dixie.com, the editor of Performance Engineering Magazine

>
>>I have heard several people in both the refrigerator and the Automotive
>>A/C industry, talk about rumors of manufacturers reducing warranties
>>on NEW R-134a equipment, they are scared of it.
>
>Oh, now there's a logical reaction. Gee, how about halting further
>production of R-134a systems until the problems can be worked out,
>instead of passing known junk on to the consumer? What a waste of
>everybody's time.

I agree.. but the folks with the $$$ control everything.. I think the
EPA currently "believes", that a R-134a "retrofit" only costs $200 or so.
Try going to any dealer, and asking him for a written quote on the cost
and parts list to retrofit YOUR car to R-134a, then ask about the
WARRANTY, if any.. we are estimating $1300-$1800 depending on the car,
which is a replacement of all parts touching refrigerant.. maybe
somebody has a "magic" PAG or ESTER oil which is resistant to CFC
contamination now.. but I sure haven't seen it.  50% cut in R-12 production
for '93 and another 50% cut in '94, gone at the end of '95.
>
>>I have also heard reports from IVY Tech in INDY, that mechanics are
>>getting skin burns after working on R-134a systems.  The PAFT
>
>To me, the cons of R-134a far outweigh the pros. It's ONLY advantage
>is that its ODF is 0. Why can't somebody use GHG12 or something similar
>in new cars? It's ODF is practically nil, yes?

GHG ODF is 0.04 (per car), DuPont SUVA MP52 is around the same, but it
needs most of the oil and drier changed to new types. GHG needs no changes.
Both are a lot less hassle than a R-134a conversion. R-12 ODF is 1.0

>--
>Griff Miller > miller@monarch.wg3.waii.com < use this for email.
>
--ghg
Newsgroups: sci.environment,talk.environment