From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish
Subject: Re: Nazi camps
Date: 29 Sep 92 18:50:26 GMT
Reply-To: roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig)
Organization: Princeton University
Originator: news@nimaster

In article <1992Sep29.154513.28006@sarah.albany.edu> pawel@tethys.ph.albany.edu writes:
>>In article <1992Sep28.194855.28003@Princeton.EDU>, roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig) writes:
>>>In article <1992Sep28.160512.14104@sarah.albany.edu> pawel@tethys.ph.albany.edu writes:

>>>For a Christian to marry a Jew was a good think to do as long as
>>>partner was baptized.

>>And, vice-versa, it was OK for a Jew to marry a convert to Judaism.
>>Jews, however, do not generally allow conversion for the *purpose*
>>of marriage, which makes a certain amount of sense, given the amount
>>of commitment it takes to live a piously Jewish life.

>    From your statement I understand that it is not quite vice-versa,
>since "Jews do not generally allow conversion for the *purpose*
>of mariage".  It seems to me that in Catholic church (although I am
>not an expert, I am not Catholic) conversion for the purpose
>of marriage is accepted and even encouraged as a mean to "save a soul".

Correct.  Jews, however, do not believe that they have a monopoly
on fitness of the soul, that is, "The righteous of all nations will
have a place in the world to come."  (Talmud)  Accordingly, they don't
worry about "saving souls" the way Christians (who do believe in that
monopoly) do.  

>>>  This problem was relevant only for religious people and it is not clear
>>>to me whether assimilation has to mean a change of religion.

>>As an expert on the subject (i.e., the descendant of several generations
>>of assimilated Jews, some of them from Poland), I can categorically
>>say: no.  My great-grandfather was quite assimilated, and was both 
>>a leading lawyer in his town (serving all kinds of people) and the 
>>president of the synagogue.  He resigned that post after his daughter
>>married a Gentile, but remained highly respected in the community/
>>communities.

>   We have agreement here.

I should add that one can be both assimilated, to some degree, and
Orthodox.  Many orthodox Jews shave their faces and cut their sidecurls,
for instance.  Some read books with a Christian bent, or listen to
Christian music.  (Others would consider all these activities forbidden.)
An orthodox Jew we all know is Leonard Nimoy -- doesn't fit the
stereotype, does he?

>>>  The same is true about the participation in culture: both cultures
>>>(Jewish and Polish) were strongly rooted in their respective religions,
>>>thus full participation in the culture meant to large extent accepting
>>>the religious tradition (even without accepting the actual beliefs).

>>Not in urban life in the 20th century.  Educated citizens of Warsaw
>>were quite able to get along with one another on a basis unrelated to
>>church.  There was the opera house, the coffee house, the place of
>>business, and plenty of other secular crossroads.

>    "Urban life in the 20th century" is general statement. To narrow
>our discussion I would like to point out that you are right as far as
>larger cities in pre-39 Poland are concerned.  Such life was possible
>(cofee houses and so on) in the "European" cities.  Unfortunately,
>the situation was not quite the same in the small cities (stetl), not even
>mentioning rural Poland.  Life in such places was focused around
>the synagogue/church which was the center of the social life.
>Atheism was hardly tolerated.

That's OK; atheists couldn't tolerate village life, either...8-)

But you get my point: we recently heard that 1938 Warsaw was 30%
Jews, a considerable number.  Most of them were connected to the
secular culture that arose in the 19th cnetury, as were most of the 70%
who were Gentiles.

And it wasn't only Warsaw.  My father's family came from Gliwice
(Gleiwitz in those days); his relatives lived in Katowice, Cracow,
and other such places.  Small towns had their bourgeoisies, too; 
this was true all over Europe.

>>>One has to understand the difference between traditional, national
>>>cultures and contemporary secular pop-cultures (as for example US culture
>>>to large extent).

>>And, to a pretty large extent, urban culture back then, too.  Religion
>>faded among the bourgeoisie all throughout the 19th century; this was true
>>most obviously in Western Europe, but also elsewhere.  Secular culture,
>>based to a great extent on music and art and commerce, replaced religion
>>to some extent.  Once Jews were allowed by law to break out of the ghetto
>>and take part in the new public culture, many of them did.

>  You make very good point about art as a replacement of religion
>in bourgeoisie's life in XIX and early XX centuries.  You are right
>too that it was most obvious in Western Europe.  Unfortunately, most
>of Poland was rather backward then (vast majority of the population
>was rural, only recently (XIX century) freed from serfdom) and
>not exposed to the secular culture.  The same was true about the Jewish
>population in Poland - it remained mostly untouched be the Jewish  
>elinghtment in XIX century and remained in the informal ghettos
>under influence of not necessarily progresive rabbis (whatever
>"progresive" means).

Good point.  But the huge Jewish population of Poland included 
hundreds of thousands of more-or-less assimilated Jews, and *they* 
were often the target of anti-Semitic attacks, not least for being
"uppity."

>  You write "once Jews were allowed by law to break out of the ghetto
>[...] many of them did".  We shouldn't forget that for multiple reasons
>most of the chose not to do so.  You certainly know the reasons,
>so I will list only few of them: own tradition, observation of religious laws,
>which made the participation in the modern life nearly impossible, and last
>but not least hostile environment, which to large extent has to be classified
>as anti-Semitic.  Nevertheless, anti-Semitism in Poland hardly ever
>called for the violence (unlike German or Russian), it was rather
>an expression of xeonophobia and economical frustration.

I'm not sure what makes those two things mutually exclusive...   

But remember also that the vast majority of the German measures of
1933-39 were *also* non-violent.  Most could be termed "administrative."
True, the SA would beat up Jewish-looking people when they could get
away with it, but this was a tiny fraction of the non-violent evil of
the years before the war.

>>>  If you think about the assimilation as a participation in economical
>>>life of the country there were NO FORMAL obstacles for Jews in pre-IIWW
>>>Poland. 

>>But, as we have read, licensing boards and similar gateways became closed
>>to Jews in the 1930's, and de facto discrimination in the universities
>>was also heavy.

>  I agree, discrimination in Poland in late 30's became tolarated
>by the goverment. Nevertheless you have to keep in mind
>that Poland remained DEMOCRATIC country until 39, the opposition to
>the intolerant laws was strong, elections were held and so on and NO
>discriminatory laws were adopted by the goverment.

Noted.  On the other hand, the US Constitution has had its XIVth Amendment
since 1866, but it wasn't used much before the 1950's.  (I'm referring
to the Equal Protection clause.  For that matter, most ofthe Bill of
Rights wasn't taken very seriously before the 20th C, either.)

>  I do not want to diminish the meaning of the shameful practices,
>but the picture was not entirely gloom.

Not entirely, no.  But the very fact that the mere existence of Jews
called forth a "Jewish Question", and that even in 30%-Jewish Warsaw,
anti-Semitic parties held a huge number of seats in the local government,
points to the fact that Polish attitudes and establishmentsdid not make
the evil work of their conquerors any harder.

>  Neither should we take the whole situation out of context.  If
>I had to live in this part of Europe in between-wars period
>I would certainly chose Poland, not Germany or USSR  (Czechoslovakia (sp?)
>was even better place to be, but the Jewish community there was
>rather small :-).

Small?  The Jewish life of Prague was small????  Look, *Germany* only
had about half a million Jews in 1933.  And over half of those emigrated
or escaped.

If I had to make such a choice, I'd choose Germany, simply because the
economic situation of German Jews was such that emigration was far easier
when the time came.  Only 37% of Germany's Jews perished in the Holocaust;
what was the percentage for Poland?

Roger
Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish