HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: leifmk@Lise.Unit.NO (Leif Magnar Kj|nn|y)
Subject: Re: Greg Bear Blood Music
Organization: The Bavarian Illuminati
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 92 15:17:03 GMT

In article <1992Dec13.001210.18257@highlite.uucp>, mike@highlite.uucp (Mike Wiik) writes:
 > CDOMS@VAX1.UMKC.EDU writes:
 > 
 > >Has anyone on this list read both versions of Blood Music?  That is
 > >the novel lenght and the shorter version (which I have from the _New
 > >Hugo Winners_ collection published in 1989).
 > 
 > From memory, the shorter version is essentially equal to about the first
 > half of the novel. 
 > 
 > I much prefer the novel version.
 > 
 
Well, sort of.  I'd say the short story approximates the second quarter of the
novel, and only from the POV of one character.  The novel (being longer, of
course) has more room for building up the background and characterization of all
involved, and it takes the plot and ideas *much* further.  I'd go with the novel;
it gives you everything the short story does, and several times more.

-Leif Kj|nn|y
leifmk@lise.unit.no
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: user@computer.uio.no (PC Jorgensen)
Subject: Sharyn McCrumb and fans
Followup-To: rec.arts.sf.written, rec.arts.sf.fandom
Organization: UiO
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 22:04:08 GMT

Sorry about reviving an old issue, but I didn't have the possibility to
post messages until now...

"Bimbos of the Death Sun" is one of my favourite books and pieces of
comedy. 
Although the fictional con is very gaming-and-costumes oriented, a
"straight"
literature fan [like me] could also find a lot of familiar stuff,
hilariously presented. [some of the characters are in fact very similar to
prominent Scandinavian fans, but since I do not know who's reading this,
I'll just keep
my mouth shut.... ;-)]

But there was something that struck me, and that was the emphasis on the
fans 
being so little successful in "the real world" [the famous filksinger
working as a hospital orderly, the con manager who's manager of a
supermarket's vegetables section,  and so on] and holding
"low-status"-jobs, despite their very intellectual (or rather: well-read)
appearance. And the main female protagonist 
once mourns the inability of fans to cope with  "real life".

At least in Norwegian fandom "it ain't necessarily so" - well, we have our
portion of nerds and weirdos, but a lot of us are moderately successful in
our professional lives as well (no government ministers or bigshot
businessmen among us, but that's not to be expected).

So - is this a real feature of American fandom?

This is from a Scandinavian viewpoint intersting, because:

a] a Swedish fan claimed retorically a couple of years ago that the
percentage of "human wreckage" [his example was - among others - people who

had been declared unfit for or objected to National Service (!)] in Swedish
fandom was much larger than in Swedish society as a whole, and

b] the PR manager of the last two Norwegian cons made a habit of appearing
in national newspaper and talk about those strange nerds that meet every
summer in the vicinity of the University, and about their being bullied at
school, dispised by members of the other sex, inability to cope with the
"Rat Race" etc. [One of these articles led to several embarrasing questions
from a femal co-worker, by the way :-)]

So, the topic is: are there more nerds in fandom than elsewhere? 

I myself must admit that the weirdest people that I have met, are fans or
have been, but I do not think that the unwordliness and nerdness some want
to postulate is so universal.

:-)

PC

--------------------------

It's only SF and fandom, but I like it

 - rolling stones paraphrase
From: weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Rama Reveiled by A.C. Clarke
Date: 17 Dec 92 15:36:55 GMT
Reply-To: weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener)
Organization: The Wistar Institute of Anatomy and Biology
In-reply-to: jseaver@bigwpi.WPI.EDU (Jason John Seaver)

In article <1gosinINN45m@bigboote.WPI.EDU>, jseaver@bigwpi (Jason John Seaver) writes:
>>>I, for one, absolutely refuse to look at the sequels.

>>Same here.

>I read Rama II before RwR, so hopefully you'll forgive me if I say
>the first seemed a bit pallid by comparison; I've got no doubt I
>would have been _really_ impressed if it had been the first one I
>read.

See what I mean?  The later Rama books kill the sense of wonder of RWR.
As the person whose complaint I responded to had noticed so accurately,
without it, RWR is pretty ordinary.

>       Rama II and Garden of Rama are really impressive if viewed as
>far-future technothrillers, rather than as an expansion of
>Rendezvous.

I'm sure they are.  I'd rather keep my intense awe for RWR and read
somebody else's impressive technothrillers.
-- 
-Matthew P Wiener (weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: julie@eddie.jpl.nasa.gov (Julie Kangas)
Subject: Re: Last of the Renshai (?)
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, CA
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 22:38:16 GMT

In article <BzBK1L.9pn@news.cso.uiuc.edu> jbeason@s.psych.uiuc.edu (Joseph E. Beason) writes:
>Not sure if I;m getting the title right, but I recently saw two Very Thick
>Books About Magic (VTBAM), and since I'd like some winter reading, has
>anyone any opinions? The first is titled something like Last of the Renshai,
>the second focuses on the wizards involved in the first book.  First book
>back cover erfered to warrior race which is almost (sole survivor) destroyed
>by a coalition of enemies.  Second about search for a replacement for one
>of four wizards that keep up some cosmic balance or something.
>
>Questions: is it more about warriors or magic, and are women interesting (like
>Jordan) or icky (like Tolkein, Heinlin, Asimov, etc, etc).
>
>Oops, maybe I should duck over that last comment.  

I enjoyed the first two books (The Last Renshai and The Western 
Wizard) and am anxiously awaiting the third.  Now, I'm not saying 
they are masterpieces like Jordan's books, but they are still very good.  
I've re-read each twice now and see no problems with more re-readings 
in the future.

I don't want to give any plots away, but the books are really as separate
you say.  The emphasis is on warrior skills in the first two books,
but the magic is there as a backdrop, you might say.  (Hmm, this is
vague.  Go read the books!)

As for the development of the women characters:  I thought Mitriam
was one of the better developed characters in the books, although
she definitely is not cast in the "traditional" female mold.  
So while there are more 'major' male characters than female ones,
the female ones are interesting, not 'icky' :)

Julie
DISCLAIMER:  All opinions here belong to my cat and no one else
From: c188-cr@po.berkeley.edu (Chua Hak Lien)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Auto-buy lists
Date: 18 Dec 1992 06:23:50 GMT
Organization: University of California, at Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: po.berkeley.edu

In article <BzFqAC.LuA@news.cso.uiuc.edu> tara@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Lady Johanna Constantine) writes:
>I will read anytjing in the TOR/ACE Fairy Tale Series edited by Terry Windling,
>ad I am looking forward to picking up _Snow White, Blood Red_.  
                                                    ^^^^^
Shouldn't that be Rose?

>LJC

Chua
+==+
Common sense is not so common.
			- Voltaire
From: mab@buphy.bu.edu (Michael Burstein)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Mike the computer (was Re: Rama Reveiled by A.C. Clarke)
Date: 17 Dec 92 15:53:05 GMT
Organization: Boston University Physics Department

In article <15DEC92.14395656.0077@UNBVM1.CSD.UNB.CA> O2NY@UNB.CA (O2NY000) writes:
>>>latest series. Heilein died and I was reading 'The Cat who walks
>>>through walls [....]
>>
>>>to be released already! I already have to deal with not knowing
>>>what happened to Mike the computer. Where will it all end?
>>
>>If you want to know what happened to Mike the computer, read Heinlein's
>>last novel, "To Sail Beyond the Sunset." If you don't want to read it,
>>then let me (or someone) know and I'll post or e-mail the info to you.





**possible spoilers ahead, if you have not read The Cat Who Walks Through
**Walls or To Sail Beyond the Sunset.






>Thanks Michael for the offer but I already read it. The book ends with
>Mike being rescued, I hope, but his and his rescuers utimate fate
>still unresolved. And what happens to Lazarus? Does he ever die?
>Dr. Pinero never released the results of his test, did he discover
>that he lives forever, or just a very, very, very long time? I sure
>hope there is a heaven, I sure have a lot of questions for RAH, Herbert,
>and several others.

I'm sorry, David, but I think you're still referring to The Cat Who
Walks Through Walls. That book does in fact end as you describe -- that
is, ambiguously. Now, on pages 39-41 of To Sail Beyond the Sunset,
Heinlein tells us exactly what happened after the end of The Cat Who
Walks Through Walls, and resolves the situation of Mike and his
rescuers.

As to how long Lazarus lives, etc., it's probably summed up best at the
end of To Sail Beyond the Sunset, where it is implied that Lazarus and
company live happily ever after.












-- 
Michael A. Burstein
Physics Department, Boston University         mab@buphy.bu.edu
590 Commonwealth Ave.                         (617) 353-9437 (o)
Boston, MA 02215                              (617) 735-9433 (h)
From: REYNOLDS@HOPE.CIT.HOPE.EDU ("That ended; so also may this")
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Eco-Catastrophe Novel Request
Date: 15 Dec 92 20:42:00 GMT

From:	HOPE::REYNOLDS     "That ended; so also may this" 15-DEC-1992 15:28:13.68
To:	IN%"sf-lovers-written@rugers.edu"
CC:	REYNOLDS
Subj:	Eco-Catastrophe Novel

A friend of mine who is not on the list has found that a book she's used for
a course (first-year college) has gone out of print--NATURE'S END by
Streiber and Kunetka.

Can anyone recommend a replacement--the idea is that the eco-catastrophe (does
not have to be the end of the world) is precipitated by a continuation or
extension of current trends (global warming, etc.).

Thanks.

William Reynolds
Reynolds@Hope
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,soc.history
From: stank@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (Stan Krieger)
Subject: Re: Civil War Alternate Histories
Organization: Summit NJ
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 04:40:54 GMT

>I'm not sure Lincoln wanted to do anything about slavery in the
>states where it existed, did he? He may have personally wanted
>to see slavery come to an eventual end and he may have used the
>power of the presidency to try to prevent its spread into new
>territories, but I doubt that he would have attempted to influence
>the institution in states where it existed. I also doubt he would
>have taken any extra-Constitutional steps like the Emancipation
>Proclamation, if the situation hadn't been forced on him by the
>exigencies of war.

While it's true that the above reflects what he said, remember too
that at the same time, he opposed the Crittendon Amendment (the
proposed 13th amendment, sent to the states on March 2, 1861), which
would've constitutionally protected slavery in the states where
it already existed.
-- 
Stan Krieger                 All opinions, advice, or suggestions, even
UNIX System Laboratories     if related to my employment, are my own.
Summit, NJ
smk@usl.com
From: dave@cs.arizona.edu (Dave Schaumann)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: New to SF
Date: 13 Dec 92 06:36:17 GMT
Reply-To: dave@cs.arizona.edu (Dave Schaumann)
Organization: University of Arizona

In article <HERMIT.92Dec6042803@am.ucsc.edu>, hermit@cats (William R. Ward) writes:
>Now a question to all the other readers of this: Can you please give
>me some ideas for authors to start reading next?  I've read most
>everything I can find by Niven, and would like to start exploring
>other authors, specifically ones who have similar talent and style to
>Niven, if there are any...

Well... it depends on what you like about Niven.


If you're interested in a well-fleshed "Future History", check out
the stories collected in _The Past Through Tomorrow_.  Some of it
is a bit dated, but it's good evidence why RAH holds the place in
the SF firmament that he does (IMHO).

Another descent hard-sf writer is Charles Sheffield.  A lot of his
early doesn't compare favorably with Niven, but _Summertide_ and
_Divergence_ (the first two books in the "Heritage Universe") are
pretty good.  There's a third book out, but I haven't read it and
don't recall it's name.

Many of his earlier stories are set in common "Future History"
(which may or may not be the same as Heritage), but these tend to
be a bit short on characterization.

Another series I've recommended before (with absolutely no response)
is a series of four books by Stephen Ames Berry:
  _The Biofab War_
  _The Battle for Terra Two_
  _The AI War_
  _The Final Assault_

They're probably all out of print by now, so you'll have to rattle
around the used book stores to find them, but IMHO it's well worth
it.  What're they about?  Space Opera on a sweeping scale.  The
first book is about first contact with a lost galactic (human)
civilization, which is fighting a loosing war against shape-changing
mind-sucking telepathic teleporting cannablistic insectoid biofabricated
creatures bent on the utter and complete extinction of the human
race.  (Note that that's not really a spoiler; most of the above
is set up in the first chapter!)

The following books... well, I can't really say more than the follow
the story without spoilers.

Oh, yeah.  _Gateway_, by Fred Pohl.  If you haven't read it, do
so immediately.  There's about 4 books that follow up on it with
(IMHO) decreasing enthusiasm, but _Gateway_ is a certifiable classic.
Comparable to _Ringworld_, _Dune_, _The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress_,
the _Foundation_ books, the _Robot_ stories, _Gateway_ is on the
all-time list of "must-read SF books".

-- 
You're traveling through another dimension -- a dimension not only of sight and
sound but of mind. A journey into a wonderous land whose boundaries are that of
imagination.  That's a signpost up ahead: your next stop -- the Twilight Zone!
From: ekho@cybernet.cse.fau.edu (amanda rothman)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Books by Jean Lorrah?
Date: 16 Dec 92 00:14:25 GMT
Organization: Cybernet BBS, Boca Raton, Florida

Elistan+@CMU.EDU (Mark Alan Lang) writes:

>     A while ago I read some Star Trek books by author Jean Lorrah. 
> ("Metamorphosis" in TNG, and "The Vulcan Acadamy Murders" and "The IDIC
> Epidemic" in TOS.)  I really enjoyed these, so I was wondering if she
> has written any other books.  Thanks is advance.

  Jean Lorrah has written quite a bit in science fiction.  I don't know 
if you've read _Survivors_, the prequel to _Metamorphasis_ by her.  She 
writes in fan fiction as well as professional.  I've seen stories by her 
in Blakes 7 and Star Trek, as well as other fandoms.  She also has 
written her own series of books which, unfortunately, I haven't been able 
to read yet; just ask your bookstore dealer for books written by her, and 
if they don't have them in stock, they can order them for you if you 
wish.  Pardon the rambling sentences; Post Final Exam shock. ;)  Enjoy!


      Yours in Time and Space,

                Ekho
From: ksand@apple.com (Kent Sandvik )
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: James P. Hogan
Date: 14 Dec 92 01:58:51 GMT
Followup-To: rec.arts.sf.written
Organization: (Evil Eye Creature from Mars, Inc.)

In article <1992Dec06.230343.12339@clarinet.com>, brad@clarinet.com (Brad
Templeton) wrote:
> 
> I think if you want to criticise the science of SF authors, Hogan should
> not be first on your list.  For example, I think he did quite a lot of
> research on the Two Faces of Tomorrow, and came up with a detailed treatment of
> AI that was considerably better constructed than any other I have seen.
> 
> Sure it was SF, and you can poke holes in it, but it was very good for
> a layman.

If I remember correctly Hogan is a former Sales Engineer for DEC...

Kent
-------------------
Kent Sandvik (UUCP: ....!apple!ksand; INTERNET: ksand@apple.com)
DISCLAIMER: Private activities on the Net.
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 20:13:27 -0500 
From: "Andrew C. Plotkin" <ap1i+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: LENSMAN?
	<1gapseINNhnh@agate.berkeley.edu>

Excerpts from netnews.rec.arts.sf.written: 11-Dec-92 Re: LENSMAN? Scott
Drellishak@soda.be (1632)

> What about (from memory): "cool your jets", "hipe!", "zwilnik", "space
> louse", [...]  *These* are examples of
really bad "futuristic" jargon. 

"Chill out," "mondo!", "hacker", "scuzzbucket".

I've heard each of those, from either myself or my friends, with no
sense of "silliness" at all. And god only knows what I'll be saying in
five years. Doc Smith's jargon can't *possibly* be any sillier than real
life.

> and the all-powerful Negasphere

That's meant to be scientific jargon. Scientific jargon is worse than
high-school jargon. (SQUIDS, quarks, Dirac sea, superstrings...) And how
is "negasphere" worse than "antimatter", the equivalent term in real
life? 

Now I admit that the prose in the Lensman books is generally bombastic,
gosh-wow, overdramatized, and not what I'd call "brilliant style." That
is indeed part of the fun. But it ain't the jargon's fault.

> not really science fiction -- they're adventure/fantasy/romance novels
> written with (rather clumsy) science fiction trappings

Urk -- that's getting into the "what is SF" thread, so I shall valiantly
withhold my strong disagreement. :-)

--Z

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the borogoves..."
From: lnh@soliton.physics.arizona.edu (sometimes a Wombat)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: ... LRH Trash.
Date: 10 Dec 92 20:33:12 GMT
Organization: Society for the Appreciation of Janni Lee Simner

cozzlab@garnet.berkeley.edu writes:
> 
> You can, of course, read the original by Dante: good translations exist
> by John Ciardi, Dorothy L. Sayers, and Barry Mandelbaum.  Ciardi is perhaps
> the easiest for Americans to read; Sayers has the best notes; Mandelbaum
> has the Italian opposite a facing-page translation.

I agree with this assessment.

> And all four of the above write better than Niven&Pournelle anyway.

Definately.

	Larry "Zoop!" Hammer
--

LNH@physics.arizona.edu   \  In the deserts of the heart 
sometimes a Wombat         \ Let the healing fountains start  -- Auden
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: bwebster@pages.com (Bruce F. Webster)
Subject: Re: QX and on green! (was Re: LENSMAN?)
Reply-To: bwebster@pages.com
Organization: Banzai Research Institute
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 03:59:53 GMT

In article <1giljcINNrgn@agate.berkeley.edu> cozzlab@garnet.berkeley.edu ()  
writes:
> In article <1992Dec14.120510.1@fnalo.fnal.gov> higgins@fnalo.fnal.gov (Bill  
Higgins-- Beam Jockey) writes:
> >
> >It's part of the fun.  From memory, in one of the books a character,
> >attempting to express the notion that Clarissa MacDougal is extremely
> >attractive, describes her as "a seven-sector callout."
> 
> And also, a blinding flash and a deafening report.
> 

My favorite bit of Smithese is the useful "never-to-be-sufficiently-damned",  
which I have used myself on any number of occasions (usually in reference to  
cars and operating systems). 

> 
> Who, if this thread goes on much longer, will yield to temptation and
> go dig out the books and read them again.
> 

Uh, I might. I just dug out all my SF paperbacks a week or two ago, putting  
them out after a move (the first I've had them all out in nearly two years),  
and paid attention to the Doc Smith novels (because of the threads here).  I  
appear to have lost _Triplanetary_ and _The Skylark of Space_ somewhere along  
the way (since they're the first of each series, I suspect they were loaned out  
and never retrieved); don't know if I can dig up copies at a local used book  
store or not.  ..bruce..

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bruce F. Webster             |  We hackers linger by our leading edge
CTO, Pages Software Inc      |  Forgetting what is pending in the cache
bwebster@pages.com           |  Till practice hurtles past us, and we crash.
#import <pages/disclaimer.h> |            -- Jeff Duntemann
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: dpn2@po.CWRU.Edu (Damien P. Neil)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Why Heinlein's folk want babies
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 22:20:29 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University
NNTP-Posting-Host: b63519.student.cwru.edu

In article <1992Dec16.174924.27043@maths.tcd.ie> mike@maths.tcd.ie (Mike Rogers) writes:
>In article <1992Dec15.052539.19090@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu>, pciszek@nyx.cs.du.edu (Paul Ciszek) wrote:
>>home, too.  No, the people you recruit for your colony expedition are those
>>who are determined to subsist and breed, again and again!  Many generations
>>later, when the new world is ready to start colonies of their own, guess
>
>Here we have a classic failure of vision. Ask yourself this, if you're the
>product of a totally advanced civilisation that can afford the massive 
>and sundry investments, and is possessed of the willpower, to "colonize"
>planets, then why the hell do you have to wait *nine* months for your
>'workers' to emerge. I'm sure vatgrown would be faster, cheper and altogether
>cleaner. Not to mention the greater social control allowed.
>
>In fact, if you're that advanced, why will you actually *need* human workers
>in vast numbers?

Perchance beacuse a continuing thread throughout Heinlein's works was the 
nobility and worth of humanity. Sure, it might be possible to ditch 
humanity. But why would you want to do this is the entire reason behind 
colonization is to advance humanity?

Heinlein was utterly against any form of "greater social control". In his 
books, independant thought was always one of the most important 
characteristics of his protagonists.

As for the need for human workers, this would seem to be fairly obvious in a 
colony situation given the framework of his books. The colonists did not 
have access to high technology. It was neither technologically nor 
economically feasable to make extensive use of artificial workers to aid in 
colonization.
-----
Damien Neil   dpn2@po.cwru.edu    "Until somebody debugs reality, the best
Case Western Reserve University    I can do is a quick patch here and there."
CMPS/EEAP double majoring masochist               - Erik Green
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: rebekah@netcom.com (Rebekah J. Jensen)
Subject: Bathroom reading
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 22:22:11 GMT

Hullo all!

Recently they've come out with "Bathroom Readers" full of general fiction,
etc. for the general public, what about some good bathroom reading for SF
lovers?  Does anyone out there have some suggestions of what would be good
material essential to any bathroom redecoration?  I'd think it would need to
be light and/or funny and short.  Or do you have a tried-and-tested
favorite? :-)
 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
|   Becky Jensen, Private Citizen           |   "Curiouser and curiouser..."  |
|        rebekah@netcom.com                 |   --Lewis, AIW                  |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~