From: cblanc@pomona.claremont.edu (Muffavore)
Subject: Re: LSD and alcoholics posting on usenet
Organization: Multinational Corporations, Inc.
Date: 28 Dec 92 13:52:35 PST

In article <1992Dec28.094636.11709@news.acns.nwu.edu>, petersen@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Julie Petersen) writes:
> In article <1992Dec27.201453.1@pomona.claremont.edu> cblanc@pomona.claremont.edu (Muffavore) writes:
>>> Well, certainly one good experience isn't going to make someone
>>> suddenly wake up and never drink again. But it can be a powerful
>>> start just to realize there's something else 'out there'. One of
>>> the keys to AA is acceptance of a 'higher power'. This is much
>>> easier when one has experienced the higher power directly through
>>> LSD or MDMA.
>>
>>	The 'higher power' argument is nice; however, it's just substitution of
>>one addiction for another, and in the long run doesn't cure the more
>>intellectually active alcoholics.  Besides, you fail to address the point:  it
>>is a disease, whether physical or mental, and simply giving a substitute drug,
>>whether bullshit icon (gOD) or MDMA is not going to cut it.  
>>
> 
> I'm not sure I'm getting your point here... Are you implying that
> alcoholics never recover? I'm saying MDMA could be used to aide

	No, I'm saying that the way to treat alcohol is not to assign more
drugs to it as miracle cures.  That is bullshit, as is giving gOD (DOg) to the
poor fucks in treatment -- the only way is to face the problem, and I don't
think that hallucinogens are going to aid that (this is not from lack of
understanding, but too much understanding).  Alcoholics never do recover, in a
sense -- you are always an alcoholic, but you may not be drinking.  Do you
understand now?

> the recovery process, and you keep saying that I'm wrong because
> alcoholism is a disease. I don't see how the fact that alcoholism
> is a disease ('disease' is subjective term, how about 'biological

	Great.  Semantics.  Hey -- recovery is a subjective term, too, pal.  I
know some alcoholics who don't want to recover....

> difference') discredits the idea of using MDMA as part of working
> towards a solution. In the first place, MDMA can allow a person
> to look at themselves honestly. It can break down the defenses

	No, it can take away their inhibitions about doing so, which fosters a
dependency in itself.  Are you understanding yet?

> that an alcoholic uses to avoid seeing what they're doing to
> their life. And the nice thing is that at the same time that you

	I know quite a few who will admit openly that they are alcoholics, and
recognize that fact (that is, they're not just saying "oh yeah iman alcoholic"
and writing it off quantitatively) and do not want to change.

> see yourself clearly, you are more inclined to accept things for
> what they are. Acceptance is the first step towards recovery.
> 
> As for MDMA being 'substitution of one addiction for another',
> you saying this simply means that you don't understand MDMA. It
> may be many things, but almost nobody makes the claim that it's
> addictive, physically *or* psychologically.

	Anything is addictive psychologically -- I understand more
of this than you do, trust me...

> 
> For the alcoholic, alcohol is a very powerful drug, almost an
> opiate. Some people don't understand that alcohol affects the
> alcoholic differently than it does a 'normal' person (any
> doctors to back me up on this?). Using LSD or MDMA is not
> 'merely' replacing one drug with another. For an alcoholic who
> has been partaking of a powerful drug for all of his adult life,
> the high is very much an intergral part of life. It's got to
> be replaced somehow (there is a natural human need for feeling
> high, whether through religion, drugs, exercise, whatever). If
> the highly debilitating drug alcohol can be replaced with a
> drug that everyone agrees is way WAY safer, then that is a
> great accomplishment in itself. And if it is a drug such as
> MDMA which generally tends to be self-moderating, even better.
> And as the alcoholic awakens from the 'other'-oriented
> alcoholic high to the 'self'-oriented MDMA high s/he may
> discover a whole new world which allows them to leave
> behind the alcohol.

	What about the alcoholics who drink two beers a day?  I hear that MDMA
is neurotoxic; alcohol is as well, but at that level to a lesser degree.  For
one thing, I think you're talking hardcore alcoholic, in whose cases I doubt
your positive experience theory applies at all, and I doubt are treatable with
any drugs...MDMA or LSD might mmake them feel more alive, but they are still
going to need alcohol.  This is truth, something you've stated above -- I'm
saying that your treatment is bullshit, and that applying it makes as much
sense as applying leaches.  AM I coming through yet?

> 
> At the very least, there should be further research into the
> use of LSD and MDMA to treat alcoholism. Nothing else we've
> tried seems to work particularly well, any new approach
> should at least be studied, rather than pushed into a closet
> without giving it a chance. Personally I just think the
> government would rather have an alcoholic citizenry than
> an awakened psychedelic citizenry. Call me paranoid.

	Your stance is that of an absolute -- hallucinogens are good, alcohol
is bad.  Some people will always be alcoholics, and some will recover.  The
reason nothing has worked so far is that it's mostly tied up with that halfwit
bastard gOD, who has nothing to do with chemicals and is merely another useless
addiction -- I have yet to see a program I'd trust an alcoholic in.
	And some should stay alcoholic.

> 
> __________________________________________________________________________
> Jim Petersen         petersen@casbah.acns.nwu.edu          jp@darkstar.com
> 
>                 If mercy's in business I wish it for you-        
>              More than just ashes when your dreams come true.
> 
> 

Didn't figure it would be understood,

Muffavore
Organization: Freshman, MCS general, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA