HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: klaus@diku.dk (Klaus Ole Kristiansen)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: Psionics
Date: 24 Jul 92 07:51:18 GMT
Organization: Department of Computer Science, U of Copenhagen

dqk412@kepler.unh.edu (David Q Kennard) writes:

>Does anyone else out there think that SF technology is a copout of a
>world designer who cannot work within the framework of his own world's
>base principles to provide a good story/adventure/characterization?

>Dave Kennard

Probably. I don't, though.

Klaus O K
Xref: sparky rec.games.frp.advocacy:1342 rec.games.frp.dnd:2208
From: weeks@astroatc.UUCP (Pat Weeks)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy,rec.games.frp.dnd
Subject: 10% XP bonus
Date: 30 Jul 92 16:29:07 GMT
Reply-To: weeks%astroatc.UUCP@spool.cs.wisc.edu (Patrick Weeks)
Organization: Astronautics Technology Cntr, Madison, WI


	Hello All!  I was thinking again(I know it's dangerous...), but anyway.

	Characters with 16+ or better in their prime requisite get a 10% XP
bonus right??  WHY!!  I would think that a fighter with a 14 STR would gain
more experience from a battle than a 18/95 fighter.  I mean it LASTS MUCH
longer.  Thieves have better skills.  This makes it easier to succeed and they
get XP for it??  Priests I might be able to see because they have an opportunity
to cast more spells(active experience), but then again it's EASIER for them.  I
would think the more challenging it is the more XP you should get...  I propose
that one might get XP for lesser stats.  It would also make those persons with
less than wonderful stats get some kind of benefit.

	Comments?  Queries?  Bics?




						Ghostwheel Speaks...

Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
From: seurer@rchland.vnet.ibm.com (Bill Seurer)
Subject: Re: SF or FF (Future Fantasy)?
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 14:15:34 GMT
Reply-To: BillSeurer@vnet.ibm.com
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM Rochester

Basically every argument boils down to "Science Fiction is what *I* say it
is."  You can tell me that Star Trek, Star Wars, and etc. aren't SF until
you are blue in the face and I will still say they are (and someone else
will say that ST is and SW isn't and someone else will say vice-versa and
someone else will ...).

By the way, what does this have to do with role playing games advocacy?
-- 

- Bill Seurer     Language and Compiler Development      IBM Rochester, MN
  Internet: BillSeurer@vnet.ibm.com    America On-Line: BillSeurer@aol.com
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
From: dfrancis@tronsbox.xei.com (Dennis Heffernan)
Subject: Re: Psionics
Organization: Xanadu Enterprises Inc.
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 13:03:35 GMT

In article <13681@mindlink.bc.ca> Nick_Janow@mindlink.bc.ca (Nick Janow) writes:
|Psionics, as offered in many games, would have major implications for many
|facets of everyday life.  It would have social, political, economic,
|technological and military implications.  It would be on the order of us
|discovering a way to use quantum mechanics to send instantaneous messages, or a
|way to control gravity with a small, low-power device.  Does any rpg reflect
|this?
|
	Yes.  GURPS Psionics has a section on the effects of psionics on
society.  It could be larger (it could be a fragging doctoral dissertation,
too...), but it covers the important points.  Of course, it has a large
section on psi-technology and the implications thereof.

	You might also want to look at Zhodani and maybe Droyne culture in
Traveller, too.


dfrancis@tronsbox.xei.com   ...uunet!tronsbox!dfrancis     GEnie: D.HEFFERNAN1
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I don't understand why you make such a big deal out of everything...haven't
you learned; if it's not happenning to me it's not important?" -Murphy Brown
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: Psionics
From: a_copeab@ccsvax.sfasu.edu
Date: 26 Jul 92 17:04:43 CST
Distribution: world
Organization: Stephen F. Austin State University

In article <13710@mindlink.bc.ca>, Nick_Janow@mindlink.bc.ca (Nick Janow) writes:
> a_copeab@ccsvax.sfasu.edu writes:
> 
> Ahh, now I know why I felt that psionics should be dropped from Legacy.  I knew
> it didn't belong there, but I couldn't really explain why.  Now I see that
> psionics is a part of a particular background for gaming (or stories), and
> since it wasn't an integral part of the background the designer imagined, there
> was no need for rules to cover it.  If someone wanted to use the rule system to
> run a different background which did include psionics, he'd add rules to cover
> it, just as he'd add rules to cover a new technology he'd added (force fields,
> transporters or whatever).

	I will agree with this in part; if the writer is just tacking psionics 
on to the system, then it is silly. Psionics can and will have an impact on 
the campaign world (universe ?), unless it is exceptionally rare (and if its 
that rare, why include rules for it?). I don't think that psionics need be
integral to the background for it to be included, but it should be integrated
into the background, with a discussion of the social, technological, and legal
implications of psionics in the campaign universe. 

Brandon Cope

Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
From: bz978@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Charles E Gibbs)
Subject: Re: CHAMPS: Marksman....
Reply-To: bz978@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Charles E Gibbs)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 19:03:50 GMT


In a previous article, gil@smtc21.engr.scarolina.edu (Gil Young) says:

>I've heard about this Markaman fellow a couple of times from you
>all, and I remember seeing him in those goofy comic strips in the
>old Champions I, II, and III.  Just who the hell is he?

  The Marksman was the leader of one of the first campaign group known
as the Guardsmen.  Many of the people who played in that campaign went

on to write the first rules and supplements for that game, which is why
you see'em plastered in CHamps I, II, and III.  IF you want stats and
stuff, try to find the CHAMPIONS limited series by Eclipse or CHAMPIONS
comic book by HERO comics at a nearby comic book store.  That can explain
a little bit more.

C. GIbbs
From: Nick_Janow@mindlink.bc.ca (Nick Janow)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: Psionics
Date: 24 Jul 92 19:32:52 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada

a_copeab@ccsvax.sfasu.edu writes:

> It may not fit with 'hard' science fiction, but there are lots of SF books
> out there with psionics (or some derivative), so it *is* part of the genre.

Is psionics part of the SF genre, or is it mistakenly considered SF rather than
fantasy by people who have little or no science knowledge?  As well, psionics
are included in many SF stories, but the psionics isn't what makes the story
SF.  Psionics is an element used in SF and fantasy books (and probably horror
and many other genres), but is not really a part of those genres.  Most SF
stories with psionics that I can think of would still be SF stories if the
psionics were removed and several of those stories would be improved thereby).

Psionics can be a part of a particular SF _story_, such as Star Wars (though
it's more sci-fi than SF), and thus would have to be included in a game based
on that movie, but I don't believe that psionics is a part of the SF _genre_.

Ahh, now I know why I felt that psionics should be dropped from Legacy.  I knew
it didn't belong there, but I couldn't really explain why.  Now I see that
psionics is a part of a particular background for gaming (or stories), and
since it wasn't an integral part of the background the designer imagined, there
was no need for rules to cover it.  If someone wanted to use the rule system to
run a different background which did include psionics, he'd add rules to cover
it, just as he'd add rules to cover a new technology he'd added (force fields,
transporters or whatever).


I knew there was a good reason to discuss psionics!  :-)

--

Nick_Janow@mindlink.bc.ca
From: Nick_Janow@mindlink.bc.ca (Nick Janow)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: SF or FF (Future Fantasy)?
Date: 30 Jul 92 21:51:47 GMT
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Distribution: world

jhk6@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (John H Kim) writes:

> canders@isr.harvard.edu (Carl E. Anderson) writes:
> 
>+ Well and good, but fusion reactors and high-temperature conductors are
>+ somewhat closer to reality than things like psionics (which isn't to say
>+ that they can be extrapolated from modern science, just that they're more
>+ likely to appear soon).
> 
> On what basis do you judge this, if not from modern science? Perhaps they are
> easier to imagine than the others, but that does not mean that they are more
> likely to appear soon.

Improvements in materials and power technologies probably follow a relatively
steady curve (of whatever function), similar to computer memory density or
cost.  The curve doesn't take into account whether it's an improvement in
electrical conversion equipment or an application of muon-catalyzed fusion; the
future power/cost ratio has a significant probability of matching the projected
figure.  The same holds true for communication rates, material strength, etc.

A new basic force of the universe accessible only from a sentient brain doesn't
fit on any curve that I can think of.  It's not like discovering quantum
mechanics, unless psionics is limited to such small ranges, energies or data
rates that our present instruments haven't detected it yet.  It's not like
discovering W particles, unless psionics doesn't occur until the brain is
accelerated to near-c velocity or subjected to TeV energies.

No, I can see advances in fusion reactors or high-temperature superconductors
as having a probability that is calculable, even if at only a low precision,
based on plots of previous advances.  As far as I can see, there isn't anything
to base a probability for psionics on.  No, wait!  I can think of something.
Check history for claimed powers similar to psionics (magic, lost advanced
races, alien visitors, etc) and the number of them that proved to be true.  Use
that to determine a probability for psionics being discovered to exist.

--

Nick_Janow@mindlink.bc.ca
From: lundgren@vesta.unm.edu (Chad Lundgren)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: SF roleplaying--fave system (GURPS)
Keywords: GURPS, HERO, number crunching
Date: 22 Jul 92 05:05:25 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: University of New Mexico

(Richard Pieri/Stainless Steel Rat) writes:
 
>deb> GURPS: Okay for a cinematic campaign (had a blast w/ Cliffhangers),
>deb> but how does it hold up for hard sf?
 
>I'm partial against GURPS. People complain about number crunching in HERO,
>I complain about complicated number crunching in GURPS.

I find this hard to believe.  I've used both systems, and GURPS is 
much easier.  With GURPS, you *know* right away whether you've made
a roll or not; in Heros I had to consult a little chart to see if
the roll made it.  Could you give me some examples?  I don't mind a
few simple calculations *before* play; HERO requires you do some
*during* play.

I'll shut up now before I overdose on **'s.

> ICBMnet: 42 deg 1 min N, 71 deg 0 min W 

Now this I like.  But either you copied it or someone copied you.
-- 
Chad Lundgren:  lundgren@ariel.unm.edu BITNET:	lundgren@unmb.bitnet 
To my consciousness, they [people] are merely ascii files that show up on my 
computer every day. --Doug Quarnstrom
From: seawasp@vm2.cis.pitt.edu (Sea Wasp)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: Psionics
Date: 24 Jul 92 22:39:47 GMT
Organization: University of Pittsburgh
Originator: seawasp@pmax1.cis.pitt.edu

In article <13707@mindlink.bc.ca> Nick_Janow@mindlink.bc.ca (Nick Janow) writes:
>seawasp@vm2.cis.pitt.edu (Sea Wasp) writes:
>> Nope, I don't. First, any game designer SHOULD include psionic rules in an SF
>> game, for the sake of completeness.

>Ah yes, completeness.  That's a great reason for adding something.  Does that
>mean tacking on a gratuitous little section "for the sake of completeness",
>even if they're total garbage?  Does it mean doing a proper job of it, at the
>expense of time that could be spent improving other parts of the game?

	If it'll sell more units of the game that way, yes. That's why people
bother to write and publish games, you know.

	But to answer your question on a higher level, again, yes. Because what
YOU see as "garbage" and a waste of time is something that others will see
as very important and useful.

	Of course you can invent your own rules, but most people would rather
have as many of the things they want to use covered by the game that they
buy.

>> They're in SO many works of great import and have great potentialities.

>They're also in so many more works of great crap, and have great potential for
>spoiling a game.

	The same could be said of ANYTHING. Remember Sturgeon's law. 98% of
EVERYTHING is crap. If you use psionics... OR magic... OR high tech... OR
detailed combat systems... to EXCESS, or without attention to their 
ramifications within your game world, they'll spoil the game. ANYTHING will.
Psionics is no more or less "bad" in this respect than magic, warp drive,
or point-based systems.

>> I use Psi in my games and I have a consistent, logical, "scientific"
>> explanation for their existence, [...]

>Do you have a simple enough summary that you could post?  I've never seen a
>good explanation/justification for psionics before.

	Wish I could. But the explanation depends heavily on the major 
concepts that integrate my entire multiverse and I want to get them published
and copyrighted before someone else uses them...

                                 Sea Wasp
                                   /^\
                                   ;;;
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
From: eebonar@sn01.sncc.lsu.edu (Dave Bonar)
Subject: Re: CHAMPS: Marksman....
Nntp-Posting-Host-[nntpd-24383]: sn01.sncc.lsu.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.3-4   
Reply-To: eebonar@sn01.sncc.lsu.edu
Organization: News and Views from LSU
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 14:06:51 GMT

In article <1992Jul29.225456.24323@news.unomaha.edu>, PCHEM14@Zeus.unomaha.edu (FALL88) writes...
>gil@smtc21.engr.scarolina.edu writes:
>[about a x3 peneterating attack]
>> Ginsu is a martial artist in style only, a highly trained and 
>> disciplined warrior from another dimension where there is no
>> learning 'curve,' but rather a straight line.  Her triple pene
>> is a function of superb training and equipment, of an unearthly
>> level.  And though one could quadruple harden a couple using 3
>> points, I'm pretty sure no such thing exists even in the Champions
>> universe.  And yes, I do have a 'real' attack in Ginsu's multipower.
>> A 4d6 punch.  Or was that a 4 1/2d6 HKA?  I forget....  :)
> 
>Pull out your 4 1/2d6 HKA, and let your attack be dealt with by his
>defenses.  He can, and should, have quad hardened defenses in a game 
>where all you have to justify loads of penetrating killing is 'linear
>training.'

	I'd say the triple penetration is based more on the alien equip-
ment then on the training.  Assuming that Ginsu is the only being to come
to Earth from his particular dimension I'd say that Mechanon probably 
wouldn't have and quad hardened armor.  Why bother?  Now, after Ginsu meets
Mechanon for the first time he would be modified so as to included some
quad hardened armor (possibly only triple hardened depending on whether
I ruled that triple penetrating could be detected as being different from
"very" penetrating without comparing its effects versus various armors).

Dave
__________
Dave Bonar
eebonar@lsuvax.sncc.lsu.edu
__________
From: dfrancis@tronsbox.xei.com (Dennis Heffernan)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: SF or FF (Future Fantasy)?
Date: 28 Jul 92 17:09:00 GMT
Organization: Xanadu Enterprises Inc.

In article <13803@mindlink.bc.ca> Nick_Janow@mindlink.bc.ca (Nick Janow) writes:
|The problem is agreeing on terminology.  Does a romance novel become science
|fiction if you have the heroine drive off in a fusion-powered car?  Does an
|adventure novel become SF if you replace the hero's cutlass with a "light
|saber"?  Does a "spaghetti western" become a "Science Fiction Adventure" movie
|if you replace the revolvers with blasters?

	Yes to all of the above.

|Does anyone feel that this is too rigid or limiting a definition of SF?  Would

	I've always found it amazing that one can, with no real effort, come up
with an endless number of cretins who are ready to argue that any particular
work you point to does not have the SF nature.  Like all other forms of
genre fiction, SF is one of the ghettos of literature, but its adherents
like to act as if it were an exclusive high-rent district.


dfrancis@tronsbox.xei.com   ...uunet!tronsbox!dfrancis     GEnie: D.HEFFERNAN1
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I don't understand why you make such a big deal out of everything...haven't
you learned; if it's not happenning to me it's not important?" -Murphy Brown
From: thantos@wyvern.via.mind.org (Lord*Thantos Wyvern)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: Psionics
Date: 25 Jul 92 01:13:40 GMT
Organization: The Wyvern's Nest / Lawrenceville, GA

sjm8118@ritvax.isc.rit.edu writes:

>       Does anyone else out there think that psionics is the copout of a SF 
> world designer that cannot work within the framework of his own SF world's
> technology to provide a good story/adventure?

  Actually, I feel the  exact opposite.   Psionics can  add flavour  and 
  interest and that little extra mystery and randomness to an  otherwise 
  static universe.  The ability (or lack thereof) to percieve that which 
  is imperceptible can be the center of the plot, or (in admittedly more 
  difficult  a  fasion)  can  simply  be  another facet  of the  greater 
  technology.

  If one is willing to suspend  one's disbelief  enough to  take FTL  or 
  even cyberlimbs  in, then  is it  more difficult  to believe  that the 
  mind, the least understood organ of all time, is capable of more  than 
  menial computation?  Whether by great leaps of insight  (precognition) 
  or by  an ultra-quick  observation of  body signs  (surface telepathy) 
  some Psi might be technologically reproducable, but what  if the  more 
  fantastic  elements  are desired  to "fit  in" the  technology without 
  recourse to mysticism?  Psionics comes into play.

  Of  course,  if  its  simply  grafted   on  after   the  universe   is 
  conceptualized, its a hack and should be viewed as such.   To properly 
  integrate, Psi should be in the fabric of the universe.



---
thantos@wyvern.via.mind.org (Lord*Thantos Wyvern)
The Wyvern's Nest
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
From: PCHEM14@Zeus.unomaha.edu (FALL88)
Subject: Re: Reviews: Dangerous Journeys, Dreampark
Organization: University of Nebraska at Omaha
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 21:47:41 GMT
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.11

cbp@reef.cis.ufl.edu writes:

> DREAM PARK
> 
> Wow.  This is COOL.  Simple, fast-paced, cinematic gaming action!  Appealing
> graphics!  Terrific character options!  Neat, playable adventures!
> 
> Now, I don't know if I'd ever run a game of DREAM PARK using the actual
> Dream Park concept

The idea of roleplaying a person who's roleplaying idea kinda got to me too.
But I'd still like to try it.

> HERO/GURPS fanatics might wince at the simplicity of the rules, or they might
> study the magic/weapons/abilities to find opportunities to power-game (there
> have to be some, somewhere, right? :), but if you've ever wanted to run a
> multi-genre game and got sick reading HERO/GURPS, then this may be the game
> for you.  Buy now, ask questions later: this game looks FUN!

I bought it for the superhero option, since I more or less collect superhero
games.  Within that realm, I found Dream Park to look nice and clean.  How the
powers will mix with other characters (non-supers) I don't know.  I liked Dream
Park for simplicity, disliked it for not centralizing mechanics (as Hero would
have probably done).  Looks like a fun game.

I think I'd tell Hero players, "Don't expect much balance," and GURPS players,
"don't expect much realism," and both groups could have a good time.  And I
don't think Hero players sit there and try to figure out how to rules-rape as
much as you imply....

In any case, I find Dream Park unique enough to deserve checking out.  (One of
my problems with GURPS when it came out was that it felt like a cheap copy of
Hero, until I looked at the price and realized it was a expensive copy....)

-james
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
From: thornt_g@cs.uwa.oz.au (Sebastian Nobwit DeLaBler)
Subject: The BEST Superhero game
Organization: Dept. Computer Science, University of Western Australia.
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 02:29:59 GMT

M E Campbell writes:

> I'm sorry, but I refuse to play a game that cannot support a character
> walking across a room.

> "What are you talking about?" You ask?? Well take a look at this:

> There are two characters in a room  10 AP across. One can move at 2 AP
> a turn, the other can move at 3 AP. How many ap of time does it take for
> them to meet??

> If you can explain this to me without going into higher mathematics, I'll
> buy the system.

Ok, howabout this:

I assume you mean the characters are on opposite sides of the room and are
walking towards each other.

Add each character's movement speed together. 2 AP's + 3 AP's would probably 
still fall into the 3 AP range, but I would make it 4. 10 AP's of distance
at 4 AP's of speed would take 6 AP's of time. There you go. Maths worthy
of an Honour's degree.

What is so important about walking across the room anyway? Do comics focus
upon people walking across rooms? If such a situation was non-combat, then
does it really matter exactly how much time it took? If it was combat, 
couldn't you just say "you meet up with each other" and go on from there?
OK, ok, let's just say it WAS really important. Simply do what took me
a good 3 seconds to work out, and you have the answer.

I would have said that how the system handles in battles between many 
super-powered combatants with all manner of abilities and all kinds of
different power levels was a slightly more important factor than whether 
the game can "support a character walking across a room", which DC can
anyway. 

So, does this mean you'll buy it?

nobwit@tartarus.uwa.edu.au


Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
From: mb8p+@andrew.cmu.edu (Mark A. Baxter)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: SF roleplaying-fave system
Date: 21 Jul 92 14:45:36 GMT
Organization: Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA


   When recommending a system (or tearing one down) please don't just
say "Cool system" or "it sucks donkeys", explain in greater detail.  I,
for example, won't touch Robotech because I hate the character
generation system (It's Palladium, so you know it's bad) I don't care
for the combat system, and I find the concept of mega-damage ludicrous. 
(The building you're using for cover is vaporized, but thanks to that
fifty pounds of armor you're wearing you're OK).  Except that if I were
reviewing Robotech and/or the Palladium system (ala Rifts) I would give
much more detail.           Peace and New College,  Mark Baxter
Mark Baxter              |One is for sorrow,
<mb8p+@andrew.cmu.edu>   |Two is for joy,
ext #4690                |Three for a girl,
                         |Four a boy,
         I               |Five is for silver,
       Have              |Six is for gold,
         A               |And Seven's a secret
      Secret             |Never to be told.
From: doug@abby.chem.ucla.edu
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: ICE on the ropes
Date: 21 Jul 92 20:27:31 GMT
Reply-To: doug@abby.chem.ucla.edu
Organization: Department of Chemistry, UCLA

Yeah, SPI put out some damn good stuff (they put out some damn awful stuff,
too, of course).... sniff!

-Doug Gibson
 doug@abby.chem.ucla.edu

Neither UCLA nor the National Science Foundation has a clue what I am doing.
They just pay me to do it.

This is a properly spelled version of the mimetic signature virus.  Copy it
into your .signature file and join in the fun today!