From: btiffany@pbs.org
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: (old) Question For Rob Levene
Date: 25 Sep 92 10:46:30 EDT
Organization: PBS:Public Broadcasting Service, Alexandria, VA

HM = Hillel Markowitz
RL = Rob Levene
BT = Bruce Tiffany

RL> So, if a pro-lifer says "I now support the Roe v. Wade right to
RL> abortion on demand" can he now say "I'm still pro-life,
RL> I've just changed this one belief?"

BT>Sounds to me like you just admitted that rejection of Yeshua is *THE*
BT>characteristic of modern Rabbinic Judaism.

BT>Was this a Freudian slip?

HM>No, what he said was that the whole complex of beliefs implied by
HM>the term Judaism *causes* the rejection of y'shu as the moshiach.

Are you intentionally offending us by insisting on the term "y'shu"?  Or
do you just not care that it's worse than calling our mothers whores?

HM>The analogy to someone who accepts Roe vs. Wade is that it is
HM>impossible to say that you accept "just this decision" and every
HM>other aspect of thought on the matter is the same.  Before this
HM>acceptance can take place a great many fundamental ideas must have
HM>changed.  That is why Rob is asking the question (above) in the
HM>form he did.  That is, people did not sit down and say, we do not
HM>want to accept this belief (in another deity) so we wil recast our
HM>principles to ensure this.  Rather the principles of Judaism (which
HM>were already fundamentals) were analyzed and it was found that we
HM>cannot accept this belief because it contradicts our fundamental
HM>principles.

It seems to me the analogy is alike if one accepts your assertion that
acceptance of Yeshua is tantamount to rejecting Judaism (!), since accepting
Roe v. Wade is tantamount to accepting abortion.  So if accepting Yeshua is
to Judaism what accepting abortion is to being pro-life, then just as
rejection of abortion characterizes the pro-life movement (after all,
that's what it's all about: rescuing the unborn and stopping abortion, although
recently it has been forced to oppose euthanasia, since that has now come
into the field [BTW, the pattern was that way in Germany, too: first abortion
became OK, then euthanasia, and eventually as the conscience of the nation
became increasingly blunted through step-by-step acceptance of these things,
it got to the Jews]), so rejection of Yeshua characterizes Rabbinic Judaism.

RL>No, it's an effect of rejecting principles of Judaism and accepting
RL>principles of Christianity.

You mean rejecting one principle of Rabbinism (i.e., rejection of Yeshua
as Messiah), and accepting Biblical Christianity/Judaism.

RL>Neither is opposition to Roe. v. Wade *THE* characteristic of the
RL>pro-life movement.

But rejection of abortion *is* THE characteristic, and Roe v. Wade means
complete acceptance of abortion.

And rejection of Yeshua is THE characteristic of Rabbinic Judaism, and
trusting Him as Messiah means accepting Him.

RL>  They oppose other abortion bills as well, it's
RL>just that Roe v. Wade is the best known, just as Jesus was one of the
RL>best known false messiahs (with regard to Judaism).  Furthermore,
RL>opposition to pro-abortion bills is an *effect* of beliefs such as "life
RL>beings at conception so abortion is murder" and "murder is morally
RL>wrong."

It's not merely rejection of Yeshua, it's rejection of those Jews who accept
Him.  If what you're saying were true, then you would accept Jews who accept
Yeshua just as you accept Jews who accept Schneerson, who quite obviously
is no Messiah at all (nor ever will be).  It's not as if Rabbinic Judaism
rejects false Messiahs, and Yeshua happens to be one of those.

Which of those false messiahs ever was "honored" with a curse, and which
followers of false messiahs were likewise banned from the synagogues and
officially cursed as part of the liturgy?  No, this honor is reserved only
for the *real* Messiah!

RL>However, accepting RvW indicates a rejection of pro-life tenets, just
RL>as accepting Jesus as a 'man-god vicarious sacrificial messiah to
RL>atone for original sin' indicates a rejection of Jewish tenets
RL>and acceptance of Christian tenets.

[Rabbinic Jewish tenets, not Jewish tenets.  You should try to be more
accurate!]

In the same way, accepting Yeshua means rejecting many of the tenets of
Rabbinism regarding the Messiah, which were developed in opposition to
Messianic Judaism long ago.

Of course, you're trying to cast the whole analogy as if it were "tenets
of Judaism" vs. "tenets of Christianity".  

RL>So I ask,
RL>  Can a person fully support Roe v. Wade and call himself officially
RL>  "pro-life?"  If so, why?  If not, why not?

Trick question.  My reply is that RABBINIC JUDAISM IS NOT BIBLICAL JUDAISM,
so we don't care what the rabbinic tradition -- which post-dates Biblical /
Messianic Judaism -- says about Messiah Yeshua.

Rabbinic Judaism (which you incorrectly insist is defacto Judaism) is
characterized by rejection of Yeshua as Messiah.  This is not merely *a*
characteristic, it is an overriding characteristic, as evidenced by the fact
that any Jew who accepts Yeshua is rejected by the Rabbinic Jewish community,
because the RJ's reject Yeshua.  This rejection is characteristic of
Rabbinic Judaism.

You can talk all you want about analogies and false messiahs, but the proof
is in the actions.  Actions speak louder than words.  If Rabbinism is not
characterized by rejection of Yeshua, then I expect you to welcome all
Messianic Jews into your synagogue and renounce the curse against Yeshua and
all His talmidim.  If you will not do this, then don't go telling me Rabbinic
Judaism is not characterized by rejection not only of Yeshua but of all those
who belong to Him.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
		Surely our griefs He Himself bore, and our sorrows He carried;
     /\		... He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was
____/__\____	crushed for our iniquities; the chastening for our well-being
\  / || \  /	fell upon Him, and by His scourging we are healed.  All of us
 \/--++--\/	like sheep have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own
 /\  ||  /\	way; but the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all to fall on
/  \ || /  \	Him. ... By His knowledge the Righteous One, My Servant, will
----\--/----	justify the many, as He will bear their iniquities.
     \/							-- Isaiah 53
		Bruce Tiffany