HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: donb@igor.tamri.com (Don Baldwin)
Subject: Re: Policing Ourselves
Organization: TOSHIBA America MRI, South San Francisco, CA
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 92 18:11:01 GMT

In article <20AUG199208485574@lims01.lerc.nasa.gov> spzkny@lims01.lerc.nasa.gov
(JAMES ZAKANY) writes:
>I see nothing wrong with a gun safety program that issues a license that 
>certifies that the carrier is competent to operate a firearm!  In fact, I 
>see everything right with it.

I might agree, if said certification gave you the legally recognized right
to carry a handgun on your person.

   don

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Where are we then?  The religionists are the enemies of liberty, and the
friends of liberty attack religion; the high-minded and the noble advocate
subjection, and the meanest and most servile minds preach independence;
honest and enlightened citizens are opposed to all progress, whilst men
without patriotism and without principles are the apostles of civilization
and intelligence.  Has such been the fate of the centuries which have
preceded our own?  and has man always inhabited a world like the present,
where nothing is linked together, where virtue is without genius, and genius
without honor; where the love of order is confounded with a taste for
oppression, and the holy rites of freedom with a taste for law; where the
light thrown by conscience on human actions is dim, and where nothing seems
to be any longer forbidden or allowed, honorable or shameful, false or true?
        - de Tocqueville
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Don Baldwin  -  Software Engineer  - e-mail to:  donb@tamri.com
From: cdt@sw.stratus.com (C. D. Tavares)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
Subject: Re: Clinton and Suicides, injuries, and Vigilantees.
Date: 19 Aug 92 22:49:53 GMT
Organization: Stratus Computer, Inc.

In article <5442@ssc-bee.ssc-vax.boeing.com>, simnet@ssc-vax.boeing.com (Mark R Poulson) writes:
> The newspaper article kept giving quotes which were inconsistent, but I think
> what they tried to say was:
> 
> 	1) Guns availability doesn't CAUSE suicidal tendencies.
> 	2) People who have suicidal thoughts can quickly grab a convenient
> 	  firearm and blow themselves away successfully.
> 	3) If a firearm is not readily available, then other less successful
> 	  methods will be tried. Eventually they get it right and succeed or
> 	  are treated for their "illness".
> 	
> 	Conclusion: Taking away all the guns will give your child a better
> 	chance of not committing suicide giving you more time to identify
> 	the problem and get it treated.

A side excursion.

About five months ago, I read (somewhere) a SF story in which an alien
society, which is extremely well-adjusted (no wars, no violence, etc.)
is examined by humans who want to know how they got there.  Finally, one
of the aliens tells them.  At birth, each of their children is outfitted
with a voluntary suicide device.  It's triggered by a combination of 
movements that are impossible to do accidentally, or for anyone else to 
do, but can be done at will by the owner in seconds.  It's removed only
after the child makes it to maturity.

According to the alien, this system purged their race of all the unstables
and those prone to violence (including two out of four of the alien's own
children).  On the other hand, it got rid of a great deal of their
genuises and artists.  There are a couple other surprises in the story
which I won't spoil, for those of you who want to read it.  (Which may
be hard, unless somebody else here recognizes the story, because I don't
remember its name, or where I read it!)
-- 

cdt@pdp.sw.stratus.com      --If you believe that I speak for my company,
OR cdt@vos.stratus.com        write today for my special Investors' Packet...
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: gray@hawkmoon.mn.org (Bill Gray)
Subject: Re: CLINTON NEW TEXT: GUN CONTROL
Organization: Demi-Public System (One of the Eternal Champions); Eagan, MN, 55123-2507, USA
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1992 06:29:13 GMT

viking@iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson) writes:

>	If this is true, I may just vote for Bush.  Why?  I planned
>on voting Libertarian, but if this extreme is what the Clinton/Gore
>ticket can assure me, perhaps I'm better off voting so they lose
>rather than so all of them get the message?  There's always '96 for
>voting Libertarian, but by then what else will I have lost if my
>vote didn't help defeat what we all saw?

>	This is going to require some serious soul-searching.

Yeah, me, too.  I thought there was *no* way I'd vote for Bush again--
until I saw "what rough beast slouches out of Little Rock to be born."

Right now, I'm thinking I'll vote for the B man if it looks tight, and
for Marrou if it looks certain either way.

Since I'm in the People's Republik of Minnesotax (TM), it would take
a direct order from Beelzebub Himself to get these folks to vote for a
non-socialist.  Which means Bush has little hope of carrying this god-
forsaken tundra, which means I can probably vote for Marrou safely
anyhow.

Which means I'll probably barf in the voting booth.

Bill

-- 
gray@hawkmoon.mn.org
This site gets a fair news feed, but e-mail is more reliable. . . :-(
"Veni, vidi, vomiti!"  -- the ghost of Tom Jefferson on reading the Brady Bill
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: earlw@Apple.COM (Earl Wallace)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
Subject: Time to Fight
Date: 19 Aug 92 00:35:21 GMT
Organization: Bit Flippers, Inc.

Has anyone else noticed that it's not safe to be in your home lately?  You
could be in the shower, hear some noise, get your gun, walk into the hall
and end up dead when the cops shoot a dozen holes in your naked body.

Since when did our government feel it was ok to drop in my home anytime
they wanted and if I act surprised, I'm dead.  What's wrong with the 
"we have you surrounded, come out with your hands up" routine?  Why is 
it now a requirement to break down the door and start shooting?  Isn't this
"house rape?"  What next?  Drag people out in the street and shoot them,
execution style?  What the heck.  Shoot the dog just for laughs.  Hang the
kids by their toes.  Rape the daughter in front of her parents.  Why not?

Can't happen here you say?  Sure it can.  Easy.  Just keep giving the power
away by the buckets to the right people and you will see a new world order
you wish to God weren't true.  You can either fight it out in your home,
in the streets or with letters and votes, but you must fight.  You no longer
have a choice in the matter.  Sitting on the sidelines is going to get you
or your family killed by the criminals or the government sooner or later.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: alane@microsoft.com (Alan Ezekiel)
Subject: Re: ACLU question
Date: 13 Aug 92 03:02:12 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corporation
Distribution: usa

kadie@m.cs.uiuc.edu (Carl M. Kadie) writes:
>
>I'm just curious, how many NRA's members support all civil liberties?

I am a member of the NRA, and will be a member of the ACLU on the day
that they decide to support the civil liberties guaranteed by *all*
the amendments, including the second.

                               -- Alane --
   /-----------------------------------------------------------------\
  /   NOBODY shares my opinions,    |    "I am a jelly doughnut"      \
 /    especially not my employer    |    -- President John F Kennedy   \
/-----------------------------------------------------------------------\
From: dont@execu.execu.com (Don Thompson)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
Subject: Re: Concealed Carry Bill in Texas?
Summary: Concealed Carry Bill in Texas
Keywords: CCW concealed carry
Date: 19 Aug 92 18:04:11 GMT
Organization: Austin Dev. Center, Comshare Inc.



mikey@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Strider) in article 41286 asked...

#A few weeks ago a bill was introduced in the Texas Legislature to establish
#a CCW permit system in Texas.  Unfortunately, I only got the ten-second
#liberal-media-oriented "let's just mention it, but give no specifics, and never
#bring it up again" news report, so I don't know what is going on with it.
#Does anyone have more information on this, perhaps even text and/or specifics?

What I heard is that it any person could apply except known psychos, convicts, 
and druggies. It would cost $150 and you would have to pass a class and 
background check. Who gives the class and BG check I don't know. 

Apparently this same bill was tried last year and passed the senate but 
didnUt even get a vote in the house. Word is that it will probably 
pass because of the Killeen episode. At least a few people testified 
that they left there weapons in the car because of the current law.
No doubt the shooter would have been dropped in short order had 
some of the customers been pack'n.

It's also in response to the fact that up to 70% of Texans already carry
loaded weapons in their vehicles and many otherwise upstanding citizens
carry concealed or open without permits. What are you going to do, 
arrest the whole state?

Our local liberal rag didn't even cover it that I could see.

I'll be one of the first in line if it passes. 

Speaking of this, it's also common in the semi-rural and rural communities
( less so in the cities ) for a loaded weapon ( long gun or hand gun, 
take your pick ) to kept in a teenagers car. Johnny turns 16, get a license,
get dads old pickup and a gun. No big deal. No problem.


I wonder how long it will take for the Brady bunch to have a 
conniption fit?
-- 
________________________________________________________________________________
Don Thompson                        |   I may be opinionated, but at least
Comshare Inc. dont@execu.execu.com  |   my opinions are my own.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: romigr@iccgcc.decnet.ab.com
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
Subject: CLEVELAND KIDS
Date: 20 Aug 92 10:16:14 EST

ONE THING OF INTEREST IN CLEVELAND OHIO.
	THE NEWS PAPER ALONG WITH THE HELP OF TV IS CALLING FOR GUN CONTROL
TO STOP THE KILLING OF KIDS BY GUNS.  WHERE THEY ARE MISLEADING THE PUBLIC
IS THAT AN 18-20YR OLD "KID" KILLED IN AN ARMED ROBBERY ATTEMPT IS INCLUDED 
IN THERE NUMBERS AS "KIDS" KILLED BY GUNS.  WHILE A FIREARM ACCIDENT IS
TRAGIC, SHOULD BE ADDRESSED, AND DOES HAPPEN, 18-20YR PUNKS COMMITING CRIMES
SHOULD NOT BE COUNTED AS A CHILD KILLED WITH A GUN.
	I WISH THE MEDIA WOULD NOT BE BIASED. UNLESS ONE VERIFYS THE NUMBERS
AND WHERE THE AGES,AND FACTS ARE CONCERNED ONE WOULD THINK CHILDREN IN
CLEVELAND DIE BY ACCIDENT WITH A GUN EVERY DAY.

				RDR 
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: aj336@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Pat Weber)
Subject: Re: No charges filed in SWAT killing
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio, (USA)
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 92 13:34:00 GMT


rom: rats@cbnewsc.cb.att.com (Morris the Cat)
(mutual stuff deleted)
I said:
What can you do? Drive to the police station & shoot it up? Sniper
away at cops on the hiway? None of that will change from the state
imposing its forcefull will on you or me.

Morris said:
>Like Hell. Do you think that IRA attacks on police stations in Northen
>Ireland has altered the perception of the government on how easy and
>painless it is to screw with folks without getting a bit of your own
>medicine in return? Hell, in LA, police stations became barricaded
>after the LA riots... damn right they figured for the moment, pissed
>off people were perfectly willing to attack the government.

We have no IRA in the US! The pissed off people left no effect
and did not attack the government, only the local cops.

You've made an important distinction  - the armed individual
versus an armed group. As an individual, the cops will bust your door
down (ala COPS, 911), shoot you and anyone who dares oppose them. They
use overwhelming force - a standard police tactic - makes you think twice
about picking up that pistol.

When guns are banned (I predict), gun owners like you and me will be
'visited' individually by the BATF and given the 'drug lord/crack house'
treatment. They'll have news clips of us being arrested, with our
evil guns displayed on the tables. The public will view us as
criminals. They DIVIDE & CONQUER - how will your gun ownership
protect you?
From: gt1111a@prism.gatech.EDU (Vincent Fox)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
Subject: Re: FREE 1-YEAR NRA... enough allready!!
Date: 13 Aug 92 04:35:03 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology

In <cthong.713669756@sfu.ca> cthong@fraser.sfu.ca (Christopher Thong) writes:

[ranting deleted]

>the cops meanwhile are only a 20 second phone call away.
>keep your gun in your pocket? ... ha... funny.

Why? Sig makes a nice little .380 auto that fits nicely in one's
front pocket, on good trousers. Would be a bit difficult with overly
tight jeans though. Pretty pricey though, at.... $650 I think?
I have on occasion carried a little Jennings .22 semi-auto. Wouldn't
help much, and judging from experience would probably jam. But a shot
or two fired, hit or no, would make the bad guys run for it I think.
They aren't going to take the time to look closely too see if it's a .44
or a .22.  Armed victim = scram-time.

>you obviously watch a lot of clint eastwood movies.

I don't see what this has to do with the above. Is this a stream
of conciousness kind of thing? I usually only get giggles out of 
old Eastwood movies. I mean, carrying around those Civil War era
revolvers with black powder, no rifling, and actually hitting people
more than 10 feet away? People never understand when I grimace or laugh
during some unbelievable feat of pistol shooting like that which runs
rampant through modern excuses for action/adventure entertainment.
Die Hard II and any Lethal Weapon are some of the worst examples.
A trip to the range, shooting with the best of hardware, under calm conditions
usually clears things up for them. I did like "Quigley Down Under"
which I saw recently. Most Westerns hold up the ridiculous idea that
everyone in the West carried pistols, or that they were good for much.
A good rifle on the other hand, was a surer and deadlier companion.

Not that I wish to give up pistols, mind you. The fact that a pistol
isn't really very deadly doesn't change the fact that it's mere presence
and handiness can make criminals think long and hard. A guy I know
claims he was being attacked while (foolishly) walking his date
back to the MARTA train at night. All he had to do was move his jacket
aside, and our previously very brave criminals went the other way pronto.
Naturally, this kind of thing makes no headlines since a crime was *prevented*.

>i accept points of view from all gun enthusiasts and people who feel
>for whatever reason they NEED a gun . (protection? okay. ) 
>you just learn to accept that as i accept your views , i don't have
>to agree with them , and i'm only speaking as another curious human
>being with some questions and points of his own wh feels that he isn't
>the ONLY one in this country who shares this opinion.

No, you keep changing your tune. Your earlier messages were quite insulting
as to why any citizen should have *any* need for a gun. Now you berate
people for responding, without acknowledging either your earlier views
or that your have changed your opinion?

-- 
The War on Drugs is just part of the War on the US Constitution. 
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: hollombe@polymath.tti.com (The Polymath)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
Subject: Re: I joined today
Date: 18 Aug 92 00:14:10 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: The Cat Factory

In article <92225.15515134AEJ7D@CMUVM.BITNET> <34AEJ7D@CMUVM.BITNET> writes:

}... it is generally not a wish move to
}divide one's forces in the middle of a battle.
}
}General Custer knew that. ...

Er ... Do you think you could come up with a less depressing example?

The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe, M.A., CDP, aka: hollombe@polymath.tti.com)
Head Robot Wrangler at Citicorp                   Turn the rascals out!
3100 Ocean Park Blvd.   (310) 450-9111, x2483     No incumbents in '92!
Santa Monica, CA  90405
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: feustel@netcom.com (David Feustel)
Subject: Re: No charges filed in SWAT killing
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 92 14:35:35 GMT
Organization: DAFCO: OS/2 Software Support & Consulting

Just a reminder: the original reason given for noknock raids was to
prevent people from flushing drugs down the toilet. 
-- 
Dave Feustel N9MYI <feustel@netcom.com>
---
Given Civil Seizure, from the DEA's point of view, winning the War on
Drugs would be killing the Goose that lays golden eggs.

It's also hard to tell which group is up to more no-good: cops or
crooks.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: alane@microsoft.com (Alan Ezekiel)
Subject: Re: democratic platform
Date: 14 Aug 92 17:43:57 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corporation

Andy Freeman has managed to write one of the most content-free pieces
of deceptive trash I have seen since I read the last HCI 43:1 statistic.

Let's take a quick look at his post, just for the amusement value:


>andy@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (Andy Freeman) writes:
>
>    Several people, including myself, told him
>how to get a copy of the survey results under discussion; he blew us
>off.
>
>I don't know about other people, but I usually ignore demands for
>information that has been provided multiple times.

Perhaps Andy hoped that I had forgotten what he wrote last month.
Fortunately, I have not.  Here is the post to which he is referring, in
which he supposedly "told me how to get a copy of the survey results":

| Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
| From: andy@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (Andy Freeman)
| Subject: Re: The NRA meets the AMA
| Message-ID: <1992Jul9.174752.11128@CSD-NewsHost.Stanford.EDU>
| Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1992 17:47:52 GMT
| 
| alane@microsoft.com (Alan Ezekiel) writes:
| >It is interesting information.  But with all due respect to Alan
| >Gottlieb, I do not consider the CCRKBA to be an unbiased source
| >of information
| 
| CCRKBA isn't the source, it is merely publicizing the results of a
| survey conducted by others.  I posted instructions on getting the
| results directly from them some time ago; feel free to check whether
| or not CCRKBA mispreported them.

So you see, Andy told me last month that he had posted that information
"some time ago".  Did he really expect me to go searching back through
thousands of t.p.g. articles looking for an old posting of his?  Without
even knowing the subject line, the approximate date, or any other
references which would enable me to find the article?

This month, he is *still* saying he posted it earlier... and now he's
flaming me for refusing to look at evidence which he HASN'T EVEN GIVEN
TO ME!

I would ask for an apology, but we all know Andy won't admit fault
even if he's wrong.


And of course, there is the sideshow issue of names:

>>Andy, you are welcome to call me Alan.  Or "Mr. Ezekiel", if you
>>truly must.  But I would appreciate not being called "Ezekiel" --
>>it's rude.

>My use of last names is neither inappropriate nor hostile.

I didn't say it was either inappropriate or hostile.  But I do find
it rude.  Since calling me "Ezekiel" brings you no benefit, and only
serves to annoy me, why do you persist in doing it?

Could it be, perhaps, that you would rather annoy me with petty
trivialities than debate real issues?  Or even (god forbid!) help
me to LEARN SOMETHING?

                               -- Alane --
   /-----------------------------------------------------------------\
  /   NOBODY shares my opinions,    |    "I am a jelly doughnut"      \
 /    especially not my employer    |    -- President John F Kennedy   \
/-----------------------------------------------------------------------\

Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: draughn@iitmax.iit.edu (Mark Draughn)
Subject: Re: Assult Dogs!
Organization: Illinois Institute of Technology
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 92 23:28:22 GMT

In article <1992Aug13.170310.19873@interlan.Interlan.COM>
urbin@interlan.Interlan.COM (Mark Urbin) writes:
>In article <1992Aug6.091552.9630@iitmax.iit.edu> draughn@iitmax.iit.edu
>(Mark Draughn) writes:
[...]
>>I propose a law against such "assault-style" dogs.
>>It should be against the law to import, sell, breed, or possess
>>     (a) any German Shepherd, Akita, Rottweiler, Doberman, or Pit Bull,
[...]
>   There is already a loud noise of this type going on in the UK.  Rottweilers
>are getting a lot bad press in particular.  I think there has been legislation
>put foward to ban the things.

I'm not surprised.  There was a lot of Pit Bull bashing right here in
the U.S. a couple years ago.  I think there was some talk of banning
them.

Note that "Pit Bull" is a nickname for a type of mean-looking Terrier.
However, "Pit Bull" isn't a very useful term in legal matters because
it's not a recognized breed of dog; it's a vague description that can
be used meaningfully only in casual situations, similar to the usage
of "Sports Car," "Hot Babe," or "User Friendly."  Or "Assault Weapon."
-- 

Mark Draughn    | <draughn@iitmax.iit.edu> or <SYSMARK@IITVAX> on BITNET
----------------+ Academic Computing Center, Illinois Institute of Technology
+1 312 567 5962 | 10 W. 31st Street, Chicago, Illinois  60616
From: bressler@iftccu.boeing.com (Rick Bressler)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
Subject: Re: Political Assasinations (Was: No charges filed in SWAT killing)
Date: 21 Aug 92 19:25:21 GMT
Organization: Boeing Commercial Airplane Group

/ iftccu:talk.politics.guns / jgd@dixie.com (John De Armond) /  2:53 pm  Aug 20, 1992 /
cescript@mtu.edu (Charles Scripter) writes:

>Of course, this requires real police work, not the gun-happy, cowboy,
>kill-'em-all,let-God-sort-'em-out mentality rampant today.  If you think
>I'm kidding, find a way to sit in a ready room sometime and listen
>to these goons talk about getting horny during and after a raid.

Not a flame or anything, nor should this be construed as support for 
illegal police tactics, BUT this is (one of the) normal reactions 
to extreme stress and danger.  Research your subject.   

Just because it seems unusual to you, sitting before your terminal, 
doesn't mean it is abnormal.

Nor is a highly emotional outburst unusual.   You have probably managed to 
tune in on a 'real life' reaction to a real life danger situation.

For what it's worth, I pretty much agree with John's views on the WOD,
but this was a murder/robery investigation...

Rick.