HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: gswst@gl.pitt.edu (Gary S Wachs)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.startrek.current
Subject: Re: "The First Duty" **SPOILERS**
Date: 8 Apr 92 20:07:11 GMT
Organization: University of Pittsburgh

Spoilert!


Good episode.  Excellent, much needed character development for Wes.

(apologies for improperly quoted material):

In article <1992Apr8.005459.24885@uunet.uu.net> kyle@uunet.uu.net (Kyle Jones) writes:
>
> > What type of punisment is not advancing with your class in a
> > military acadmey?
> > 
> > A severe one, especially for a "wunderkund" like Wesley. Every
> > one knows that you have severly messed up. So you are now of
> > lesser rank than your former fellow classmates. You also
> > become subject to EVERY concievable type of practicle joke
> > known to exist.

the council did not impose this "punishment" to cause Wes social strife in
the guise of practicle jokes, put-downs, insults and shunning.  
They wanted to make an example of him to others.  They want to remind students
that rules are rules, no matter how major your squadron is, and that those
rules exist for good reason.  If you break them, you fail and get held
back a year.  It won't affect his academic standing because he's still
highly intelligent and "always gets an A".  Getting held back a year
is the student's version of of an officer being demoted.  It is a setback,
albeit temporary.

>Teaching them humility does sound like a good idea, but making
>them waste time retaking courses is asinine.

It is not clear whether he must retake the exact same courses again or
whether he will simply be required to take additional electives (in which
case it is probably the best thing for him considering his apathy regarding
literature , the classics and history).  

Humility is not "taught".  humility is experienced by real-life experience.
I think Wes does need some development there too, for obvious reasons (I
also liked it from a development-standpoint when he fumbled in the Nanites-
episode)

>  The punishment
>should fit the crime.  Make them admit their hubris...  make 'em
>wear a scarlet A or something.

Now that would be humiliation just for the sake of humiliation, which is
cruel and unusual for a young student facing as many arduous challenges and
decisions as Wes is.  Have a heart.


I wonder what the punishment (if any) would have been had they succesfully done
the Cor*&# Starburst?  They would already have graduated with great honors and 
delighted the crowd, yet the Academy would still have to inflict a tough
punishment to set a precident for the NEXT squadron who may try something
like a Zambelli SuperNova.  They may all have been expelled on the spot.

Gar
From: ccmk@lure.latrobe.edu.au
Newsgroups: rec.arts.startrek.current
Subject: Re: more Kobiyashi
Date: 14 Apr 92 14:41:03 GMT
Organization: VAX Cluster, Computer Centre, La Trobe University

In article <1992Apr14.063807.16528@acsu.buffalo.edu>, v075q5fr@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Scott J Gorcey) writes:
>...
>      Okay, you're arguing for the "Look at these horrible situations,
>      Kirk must have dealt with them and made the realisation then,"
>      but we never SAW him sit down and say it out loud; and the next
>      episode he was unchanged.  
> 
> In article <1992Apr13.215222.28077@uunet.uu.net>, kyle@uunet.uu.net (Kyle Jones) writes...
>>I think the wirter of ST:TWOK missed completely on the
>>significance or rathr the lack thereof in the Kobiyashi Maru
>>test.  KM was a ST:TWOK invention, so it isn't all that
>>surprising that it doesn't fit into the rest of Trek.  It can be
>>discarded as still leave TWOK as a fabulous movie and clearly the
>>best of the Trek movies.
> 
>      I would ammend that to: I think you choose not to acknowledge
>      the significance the writer (credited: Jack Sowards; in reality:
>      Nick Meyer, Harve Bennett and J. Sowards) was portraying because
>      the way you see Kirk he MUST have made that realisation already.
> 
>      That's a valid rejection of part of the premise, I guess.  But
>      remember that it is rejection of what the movie is telling
>      us and that my point of view is from accepting what the movie
>      is telling us.  
> 
>      There is no solid (i.e, Kirk sitting down and doing what he
>      did in the scene with David at some point during TOS) evidence
>      that Kirk DID make that realisation during the tv episodes because
>      he never made one during the tv episodes.  
>      All we have is TWOK telling us that he NEVER MADE ONE.  It's 
>      believe their word or not.

Sorry, but there is a sort of example.  More to do with sex, though.
In REQUIEM FOR METHUSELAH Kirk is emotionally shattered because he lost
the robot bimbo to Methuselah (I know, sounds stupid if you haven't
seen it, but it isn't a bad episode).  Kirk moans and groans so much
Spock takes pity on him and uses a Vulcan mind-meld to make Kirk
forget the bimbo.  There was every indication Kirk was going to remember
the bimbo in the worst possible way into the next episode.

I wonder how many times Spock has made Kirk forget truamatic events?
Maybe it is all Spock's fault?   Maybe all those rumours about them are
true?  Maybe I am just going stupid trying to second guess over 50 different
writers for over 80 TOS episodes and movies?  Maybe the whole Star Trek
universe is not even real.  Gasp!

Mark Kosten
(ccmk@latrobe.edu.au)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.startrek.current
From: edc@evolution.bchs.uh.edu (edward s. chen)
Subject: Re: Kobyashi and Kirk
Organization: Little to none, or maybe not......
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1992 00:36:07 GMT

In article <1992Apr15.221510.726@uunet.uu.net> kyle@uunet.uu.net (Kyle Jones) writes:
>nathans@coos.dartmouth.edu (Nathan Shafer) writes:
> > Where does this come from, btw, that he found out about the
> > simulation beforehand? he only reprogrammed it after having taken it
> > three times, not prior to his first time taking it!
>
>I thought I either heard it in the movie or read it in the
>novelization.
>
>ccoprdj@prism.gatech.EDU (Jorge Diaz) writes:
> > If that's the case, then he faced death in the simulation three times.
> > How can you say he refused to take advantage of what they were offering
> > him?  He took advantage of it three times!
> > 
> > Then he said, "Enough is enough!  I'm going to beat this *$#*% thing!!!"
>
>This would be a rather glaring incosistency and would utterly
>kill the scane with David at the end, so clearly something else
>must have happened.  Maybe Kirk reprogrammed the simulation three
>times?
>

The way it worked is that Kirk refused to accept the "no-win" scenario.
He took the test once.  He lost the simulation.  Rather then accept there
is no way to win, he thought of it as a giant videogame, where there must
be *a* correct answer.  He asked, and then took it a second time.  After 
being destroyed again, the academy folks probably said "Look Kirk, you
can take this as many times as you want, but you'll NEVER win."  Kirk
refused to accept this.  He refused to accept that there are some situations
which he could not triumph over.  Thus, the third time and the re-programming.

The number three is not canon, but from the "Kobiyashi Maru" novel.  In the
movie, Spock says "You took the test several times, and as I recall, your 
final solution was, shall we say, unique"

<ESC>
-- 
I want a short-haired girl (who) sometimes wears it twice as long
                                               -- George Harrison
From: AUJDW@ASUACAD.BITNET
Newsgroups: rec.arts.startrek.current
Subject: Wesley and Alexander
Date: 14 Apr 92 17:33:53 GMT
Organization: Arizona State University

I think that Wesley and Alexander should be both ejected into
space

I can't stand either of them, and I really wonder why the producers of
TNG keep putting in these little snobby brats who think they can act.

Wil Wheaton and who ever the hell plays Alexander belong on sesame
street, and not on my favorite TV show, except mod
MOnday night football, which I should then tape the show. . .

I HATE WESLEY, and I HATE ALEXANDER, I want them DEAD!!!!

if you are with me, please respond.  I hope I am not
the only one out there who hates these pre-puberty,
New Kids on the Block loving brats.

Jeremy
From: brown@vidiot.UUCP (Vidiot)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.startrek.current
Subject: Boothby and First Duty
Date: 6 Apr 92 04:11:24 GMT
Article-I.D.: vidiot.3228
Reply-To: brown@vidiot.UUCP (Vidiot)
Organization: Vidiot's Hangout


Did anyone else notice that the scene that was being shot while ABC was on
the set was missing?  Boothby appeared to be talking to Wesley, but Boothby
and Weslsey never showed up on the screen.

Is it me or am I blind.
-- 
      harvard\     att!nicmad\          spool.cs.wisc.edu!astroatc!vidiot!brown
Vidiot  ucbvax!uwvax..........!astroatc!vidiot!brown
      rutgers/            INTERNET:vidiot!brown%astroatc.UUCP@spool.cs.wisc.edu
                                   brown@wi.extrel.com
From: s892024@minyos.xx.rmit.oz.au (Richard A. Muirden [GA])
Newsgroups: rec.arts.startrek.current
Subject: Re: _Disinherited_ opinions (Re: New TOS Book ... info)
Date: 16 Apr 92 06:34:31 GMT
Organization: RMIT Computer Centre, Melbourne Australia.

mueller@cage.eng.mcmaster.ca (Edna Mueller) writes:

>chip@tct.com (Chip Salzenberg) writes:

>>Spoilers
>^L
>>I found the errors in contintinuity distracting.

>>Just after Wesley signs off his communications with Kirk on the...
>            ^^^^^^
>	       WHAT??????

>	Has the little weasel gone through a time warp or 
>	something?  Please tell me it isn't so.

It isn't so.

This is Commodore Bob Wesley (seen in TOS "Ultimate Computer") commanding
the Lexington. Not Wesley Crusher or any (we hope) close relative or
ancestor.

-richard.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Richard Muirden,                       | Also final year Computer Science
Systems Administrator (unpaid - gasp!) | Student, RMIT. Shostakovich Freak!!
Wesley College, Prahran Campus,        | Star Trek fanatic on the side.
Melbourne, Australia.                  | mail: s892024@minyos.xx.rmit.OZ.AU
mail: ram@lionet.wesley.OZ.AU  IRC: GA | phone: +61 3 820 1429 (home)     
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
     My opinions are my own, not even Spock could work them out!!
From: jgardner@convex.com (John B. Gardner)
Subject: Re: Kobyashi and Kirk
Summary: Kirk sees, learns, wins
Organization: Engineering, CONVEX Computer Corp., Richardson, Tx., USA
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1992 01:50:01 GMT
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

In article <1992Apr16.054818.22374@menudo.uh.edu> edc@evolution.bchs.uh.edu (edward s. chen) writes:
>
>Kirk cheated.  Period.  Possibly the first in a long string of "Kirk destroys
>computer" stories. :-)  But he never learned the lesson the simulation was
>supposed to teach!
>

I believe Kirk is the only one who *did* learn the lesson!

Failing, and winding up dead in the process, is a no-win.  Isn't the
simulation teaching "don't give up!", no matter what?  If Kirk had laid
down, accepted failure, would that have made him a "better" Captain?
Hell no.  The simulation both gave the lesson and proved in the process
that Kirk will not and *should* not, accept defeat.

Think of all the subsequent prediciments in which Kirk's "never die"
attitude saved lives.  Teaching someone that failure is acceptable is
ludicrous.  Kirk was the first to "pass" the simulation.

But then, I'm a little biased ;-)

-- 
   /\ /_  _    jgardner@convex.com
   \//_//_/
   /     /     "Poor is the man whose pleasures depend
  /    \/       on the permission of another" -Madonna
Newsgroups: rec.arts.startrek.current
Newsgroups: rec.arts.startrek.current
Subject: <None>
From: jmumper@cstp.umkc.edu
Date: 6 Apr 92 16:26:49 -0600
Organization: UM - Kansas City, Computer Science

In article <72088@netnews.upenn.edu>, 
  chaim@linc.cis.upenn.edu (Chaim R. Dworkin) writes:
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spoilers for "Cause and Effect" follow:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>
>
>
>
>
>
> 
> Last chance!
> 
>   
> 
>>So how does another SF ship (the Bosun) get stuck in this loop for ---
>>what was it? --- 75+ years without figuring out that: 
>>       A) they were stuck in this loop --- from observing extreme
>>          deja vu among all the crew and
>>       B) they ought to try something (ANYTHING) in order to escape
>>          the situation.
>>I find it hard to believe that common sense has changed that much from
>>the time of TOS to TNG.  Alternately, I suppose every fleet must
>>have one ship with a completely incompetent crew.
>>
> 
> How could they experience deja vu when they are only in the loop for 36
> seconds?  It appeared to me that the Bosun entered a time distortion
> and exited 80 years later then 36 seconds later collided with the Enterprise.
> It was the explosion of the E that caused the looping effect and sent
> the E back over a day in time but the Bosun was sent back into the distortion,
> and jumped ahead in time to the point of exiting the distortion, and crashing.
> So the Bosun's loop was every 36 seconds while the E's loop was over a day.
> 
> 
> 
> Chaim R. Dworkin
> chaim@linc.cis.upenn.edu

  Careful now!  If the Bosun's time looping was caused by the Enterprise, then
they would only have been through the loop as many times as the Enterprise had.
Since the Enterprise only went through something like 17 times, the Bosun's
loop must have been quite a bit larger than 36 seconds in order to burn off
75+ years!  17x36(seconds) <> 75+ years!

  Of course, this all assumes that the Bosun's problems were caused by the
Enterprise.  Maybe the Bosun was trapped previously, and the Enterprise's
appearance changed the trap.  ie: shifted the Bosun from one loop to another.

  Or, perhaps the bosun was caught in a temporal rift that threw it into the
future, just in time to collide with the Enterprise.  In that case, maybe the
Bosun only went through the loop 17 times, and maybe each time was only 36
seconds.  In other words, the Bosun didn't lose 75+ years in the loop, it lost
them by being flung forward in time.

  But, it is impossible for the Enterprise to be the cause of the Bosun's 75+
year loss.  Obviously, the Bosun was trapped (or flung forward) before the
Enterprise was even built!
Newsgroups: rec.arts.startrek.current
From: apearlma@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Andrew Pearlman)
Subject: Re: Lacarno = Kirk (Spoilers "1st Duty)
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1992 02:53:46 GMT

In article <1992Apr07.120357.25839@orionsci> goodwin@orionsci.UUCP (Ben Goodwin) writes:
>In article <1992Apr5.182703.14439@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> apearlma@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Andrew Pearlman) writes:

>>Kirk couldn't deal with the no-win scenario at that time and neither could
>>Locarno.
>>
>>Andy Pearlman
>
>Um, what are you talking about?  Kirk reprogrammed the computer to let
>him win, but he didn't expect to get away with it.  He was just angry
>and decided that he was going to show the instructers that he wasn't
>willing to accept the no-win scenario.  His reprogramming was very
>clever and I would secretly commend him for it and then make sure nobody
>ever found out what he had done.

His reprogramming violates the honor code, is breaking and entering,
probably destruction of school property.  I find Kirk's action rather
petty actually.  At least Locarno's action showed he was trying to be
one of the best pilots ever.


>As for Locarno, you make no sense.  Locarno was a legend in the academy
>already because he had lead the team to some sort of victory at an
>air show.  He was unsatisfied and risked the lives of his team mates

Then explain why Picard says he would become a legend had he pulled it off
in front of the assembled audiences for commencement.  He's a legend to
the members of the academy, but not to anyone else.

>Your comparison between Kirk's reprogramming the Computer in Kobyashi
>Maru and Locarno's foolish actions makes no sense. Locarno was not in
>a no-win scenario.

Tell me a possible action that Locarno can take without resulting in
a probable expulsion?  Coming foward at the beginning is not acceptable.
Sounds like a no-win to me.

Andy Pearlman




Newsgroups: rec.arts.startrek.current
From: aelman@Xenon.Stanford.EDU (Adam Elman)
Subject: Re: Picard remembers Starburst (minor TFD spoiler)
Organization: CS Department, Stanford University, California, USA
Date:  8 Apr 92 23:08:06 GMT

lllowen@netcom.com (lllowen) writes:

>In article <aelman.702602908@Xenon.Stanford.EDU> 
>aelman@Xenon.Stanford.EDU (Adam Elman) writes:
>>
>>Or _maybe_, just _maybe_, it was a legend at the school and common
>>knowledge among the cadets.  There are a lot of examples of stories
>>being passed along from one class to another at colleges -- why should
>>Starfleet Academy, especially as a military-style academy, be any
>>different?  Picard probably knew of the "legend", and Geordi's mention
>>of the coolant interlock happened to click with his memory of this
>>story, and he realized what the Nova squadron had been trying to do.
>>
>>It seems perfectly reasonable to me that someone moderately familiar
>>with the methods and history of the flight team at Starfleet Academy
>>-- which it is perfectly reasonable to assume that Picard was --
>>should remember a routine that spectacular with so many cues.  

>I would think that if that were the case, the Superintendent would have
>thought of that during the hearing.  I am not arguing your point, because
>I do agree that it might be a SF legend, but the hearing committee should
>have figured out that's what they were attempting IF it were a "legend."
>--

>-Lon   (lllowen@netcom.com)

Ah, but they did not have the information about the coolant interlock
during that testimony.  Geordi and Data found the information --
Picard was the first and perhaps only person they told.

Adam Elman
aelman@cs.stanford.edu
Newsgroups: rec.arts.startrek.current
From: v075q5fr@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Scott J Gorcey)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.startrek.current
Subject: "Time's Arrow" - The Cliffhanger
Date: 8 Apr 92 10:52:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41


     Does anyone get the idea that this one could be really
     brilliant, dry, witty, fun, even dramatic as hell?  Or
     that it could finally be something even worse than
     the TOS hippy episode ("Spock's Brain" was at least
     unintentionally funny.).  No middle ground?


          ^Hot Damn, That Pie Was Good!^
                     Common Phrases Heard at
                     RR Diner #32.

          ^Scott Gorcey, v075q5fr@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu^
Newsgroups: rec.arts.startrek.current
From: ij59@vaxb.acs.unt.edu
Subject: Re: Picard remembers Starburst (minor TFD spoiler)
Organization: University of North Texas
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1992 01:51:01 GMT

In article <+61tkj@rpi.edu>, plutnj@aix.rpi.edu (James Matthew Plutnicki) writes:
> In article <aelman.702602908@Xenon.Stanford.EDU> aelman@Xenon.Stanford.EDU (Adam Elman) writes:
>>ij59@vaxb.acs.unt.edu writes:
>>
>>>In article <1992Apr5.204636.23645@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu>, rvc40592@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Bob Cadman) writes:
>>>>I hope this works:
>>
>>>>... did you notice how when Geordi told Picard about the
>>>>valve (or whatever) being opened, Picard immediately knew exactly what
>>>>it was they were doing?  Isn't that just a wee bit to convenient?  (I
>>>>was also wondering if anyone remembered how long they said that 
>>>>maneuver had been banned at the academy ... 100 years?)
>>
>>>  If Picard has actually immediately remembered the Starburst, that may indeed
>>>have been a little too convienient, but that isn't necessarily what happened. 
>>>When I heard Geordi (was it Data?  can't remember) announce that Wes had opened
>>>his "coolant interlock" my first thought was "Oh, they were trying to do
>>>skywriting in space."  Well, not being a Starfleet Academy graduate :), I
>>>didn't take it any further than that.  But Picard could have come to a similar
>>>conclusion and gone and looked it up in the computer, finding the Starburst.
>>
>>Or _maybe_, just _maybe_, it was a legend at the school and common
>>knowledge among the cadets.  There are a lot of examples of stories
>>being passed along from one class to another at colleges -- why should
>>Starfleet Academy, especially as a military-style academy, be any
>>different?  Picard probably knew of the "legend", and Geordi's mention
>>of the coolant interlock happened to click with his memory of this
>>story, and he realized what the Nova squadron had been trying to do.
>>
>>It seems perfectly reasonable to me that someone moderately familiar
>>with the methods and history of the flight team at Starfleet Academy
>>-- which it is perfectly reasonable to assume that Picard was --
>>should remember a routine that spectacular with so many cues.  
>>
> Or, how about this.... Picard tried the exact same thing and that is
> what Boothby was talking about.  Maybe that is the big secret that
> Picard is hiding.
> 
> Or Not...
> 
>      ...Jim (the Q-Man) Plutnicki
> |FQT 1.10| I want to live forever. So far, so good!
> 

  Well, this was brought up about Kirk also with the same problem: All five
cadets died in the last attempt.  (Not to mention it was 100 years ago; Picard
isn't _that_ old yet ...)

 
 (Stupid message editor won't copy my .sig right, oh well...)

               ij59@vaxb.acs.unt.edu    Scott Miller/Mira-Sukotto
From: ccoprdj@prism.gatech.EDU (Jorge Diaz)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.startrek.current
Subject: Re: What happens to BOSEMAN now in TNG-Time Line?
Date: 8 Apr 92 14:17:55 GMT
Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology

In article <1992Apr7.190817.415@cmkrnl.com> jeh@cmkrnl.com writes:



>Like he said..

>Time travel into the future causes no paradoxes -- and, as Larry Niven pointed
>out (you know, sometimes I think that *everyone* who wants to make comments on
>time travel episodes should be required to read his "Theory and Practice of
>Time Travel" first; see the _All the Myriad Ways_ collection),

Oh, is this the authority on time travel?

I'll bet this guy really knows what he's talking about, eh?

>time travel into
>the future need involve nothing more than suspended animation techniques and a
>very reliable, durable time capsule.  WHich is, in effect, what the Boseman
>became for her crew. 

How can you say time travel into the future causes no paradoxes?  What if
they hadn't traveled into the future?  Those 400 or so crewmembers would
probably have had children, who would have had children.  Who knows, one of
them may have been an ancestor of Soong.  But now that they aren't there,
they can't have those children, effectively changing the past of the people
in TNG.


-- 
Jorge Diaz                       | If winning is not important, then Commander,
Georgia Institute of Technology  |    why keep score?
Office of Information Technology | 
ccoprdj@prism.gatech.edu         |                     - Worf -