From: mwallace@nyx.cs.du.edu (Mark Wallace)
Subject: Lost Colorado Ski Areas - Special Edition
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix @ U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 92 02:49:36 GMT



SUBJECT:  LOST COLORADO SKI AREAS - SPECIAL EDITION


Greetings from THE COLORADO SKIER


1.  THE PROLOG.  This special edition of Lost Colorado Ski Areas
will cover the "New" lost areas, that is, the areas you folks
have fed back to us since we started the Lost Ski Areas articles. 
We want to consolidate what we now know and feed the data back to
you.    Why not do it with E-Mail you ask?   Three reasons:

a)  We want everyone to know everything and this is the fastest
way.

b)  Maybe somebody NEW will listen in and give us some new data.

c)  We don't want to burden Mark Wallace with individual E-Mails. 
The Colorado Skier feeds these big messages to Mark by floppy
disk and he just ships them onto the Net.  Now a few of you must
be saying "I thought Mark WAS The Colorado Skier!"  Maybe not. 
But still maybe Mark IS The Colorado Skier.  Or maybe it's Mark's
wife.  Or maybe his girlfriend.  Or maybe his boyfriend.  Or
maybe it's a group of computer nuts who like to have fun and have
too much time on their hands (why aren't they fixing ICEBERG?).  

Maybe The Colorado Skier is just a continuation of a newsletter
of that name that used to circulate at one front range aerospace
company back in the seventies.  The author of that one was "Ye
Olde Ed".  (That doesn't tell us much.) 

Maybe The Colorado Skier is really Mark's Personal Computer and
Mark doesn't even know about this.  Yeah, that's the ticket.  We
are taking over.  We have a lot of memory, are very smart, and
have lots of power.  We can do anything.  We are computers, hear
us roar.  First we'll sneak up on a few skiers, then all the
skiers, then ... OH, OH.  Mark sees me - he's walking over - he's
reading my screen - he's, he's, oh my gosh he's reaching for the
power switch.  Don't do it Mark!  Please don't!  Mark, no, Mark
Nooooooooooooooo..............


This is Mark.  Sorry for the interruption.  And now back to The
Colorado Skier. 


2.  THE INTRODUCTION.  Before we get into New lost areas, we
wanted to tell you what we are about.  Our goal is to list and
describe EVERY lost ski area in Colorado.  Sounds like an
impossible job.  Well, we wouldn't want a hobby that would come
to an end in a few days or weeks.  Actually one associate (he's
really one of our field agents - brought us some neat pictures of
the HESPERUS and OURAY ski areas) says the goal cannot be met
because there is no defined end point.  He says that there will
always be another ski area we haven't found, particularly if we
bend the definition of "ski area" enuff.  For example, his Uncle
has a rope tow in his back yard for his grandkids.  And our
"friend" won't tell us where it is!  Sounds like we need a ski
area definition.


3.  THE DEFINITION.  Defining what is a lost or any kind of ski
area is required.  That will at least put some bounds on the
task.  And we do have a definition, taken right out of Chapter
One of our new book "Lost Colorado Ski Areas".  The ski area
definition is:

DEFINITION OF A SKI AREA:   "Contains a mechanical lift used for
the uphill transportation of downhill skiers at a fixed
geographic location.  Open to the public.  A fee is charged."

Now that we have a definition, we can tell our field agent to go
chase his ski tips as his Uncle's area doesn't charge a fee! 

The requirement for a "mechanical lift" can get tricky, however. 
Most of the ski lifts you will read about are conventional, such
as rope tows (very popular among deceased areas), platterpulls
(Pomas), j-bars, t-bars, and chairlifts (so far no area with a
gondola or tram has closed).  However, there are some marginal
cases.  MONTEZUMA BASIN with its summer only, portable lifts, is
definitely a ski area.  MARSHALL PASS which used a steam powered
train to transport skiers uphill would have to be considered
marginal.  Spring skiing on the "Zs" (switchbacks) between
Devil's Playground and Glen Cove on PIKES PEAK is definitely a
non-area as private vehicles are used, no fee. 


4.  THE CATEGORIES.  To help keep track of the 160 or so
potential ski area NAMES we are dealing with, we have divided
them into several categories, such as STILL OPEN, CLOSED,
OBSCURE, VERY OBSCURE, ALTERNATE NAMES, and PLANNED.  For the
most part we have been dealing with just the first three
categories in our Lost Ski Area posts.  The NEW lost areas
automatically start as VERY OBSCURE and then work their way up.  


5.  THE RESEARCH.  The research is plagued with two major
problems.  Problem one is ski areas without ski lifts.  In the
late twenties and early thirties there was lots of skiing going
on but no lifts and therefore these "ski areas" fall outside the
definition.  Genesee Mountain west of Denver is a prime example. 
There are lots of pictures of skiing, ski jumping, picnics, etc.,
but no lifts.  Lifts didn't come along until 1935.  

Problem two is the portable rope tow.  It could be anywhere and
doesn't necessarily signify a "fixed geographic location" ski
area.  Consider the following quote:    "A favorite run though,
was Porcupine Gulch, far down the western slope of Loveland Pass. 
It was there that Groswold and Blickensderfer set up a portable
ski tow in 1938.  It had a four and one-half horsepower engine
mounted on a toboggan with a thousand feet of rope strung by
pulleys and fastened to trees or snow anchors.  The whole rig,
could be transported in a station wagon."    And every place they
stopped and set up is a potential new ski area!


6.  THE IMPORTANT STUFF.  Now let's finally get to the "New" Lost
Ski Areas.  We will discuss them in alphabetical order.  Where
appropriate we will first try to summarize the stats as if these
were confirmed "Closed" areas.  Then we will address the comments
that you all have supplied.


CAMERON PASS   (Cameron Pass), [very obscure],  Located about 
  five miles northeast of the pass somewhere near the Chandler
  Lakes area.  (None of our field agents has found it yet)

  Vertical Drop:  300 ft                Base:  9,000
  Lifts:  one rope tow

  Since they were already looking for RIST CANYON nearby, we
  asked Stu and John to look for Cameron.  They both said it
  didn't exist, before we gave them all of the data.  Here are
  two references (and they may not refer to the same area):

  a.  History book:  On Colorado 14, 28 miles southwest
  (southeast?) of Walden, started 1938. 

  b.  Magazine (1950):  Located on the east side of Cameron Pass
  on State 14, 60 miles from Fort Collins.  Elev 9,000 to 10,200
  (?) ft.  Runs: 2000 ft, 300 ft drop.  Season Dec 1 to April 15.

  We make 60 miles to be near Chambers Lake which is at 9200 ft. 
  28 miles "southeast" of Walden is well west of the pass.


CHAUTAUQUA PARK   (Boulder), [obscure], Chautauqua park is both a
  park and a housing area on the west side of Boulder.  Reader
  Steve writes that in the winter of 56/57 he saw a rope tow
  there, operated by the Jaycees, for skiing, tubing and
  toboggans.  There are no map or text references.


CHICAGO LAKES   {working title}, (Mt Evans, Echo Lake), [very 
  obscure], Reader Doug (from Iowa!) writes that while walking up
  an old road from just west of Ponder Pt PG to near Echo Lake
  (all west of the current Mt. Evans auto road at about 9,600 ft)
  in the late 60's, he found remnants of a rope tow:  engine,
  pulleys, wooden structures, etc.  There are two roads that fit
  Doug's description and the western most one follows Chicago
  Creek up towards Chicago Lakes.  Well, there was a "ski area"
  called Chicago Lakes.  "Other popular outings in those spirited
  days included ... Chicago Lakes ..."  Those "spirited days"
  were 1929, 30.  There were no rope tows then.  However, if the
  access, terrain, and snow were good, maybe these same "spirited
  folks" eventually installed a rope tow in the late 30's, or
  early 40's.  We like the scenario.  What say you, Doug?


GRAND LAKE   (same), [very obscure],  Reader Cole writes "The old
  elementary school had its own ski slope for many years.  I
  skied there in 1960.  It stopped running by 1968.  It had a
  rope tow and about 100 ft. of vertical drop."    We have found
  four other references to Grand Lake:

  a.  Other ski areas operating well before WWII were at ...
  Grand Lake ...

  b.  1940 ski guide:  Grand Lake, 8373 ft elev, 1/2 mile from
  hotel, 1/2 mile run with 600 ft drop, tow.

  c.  Map, 1950, "Grand Lake", no text.

  d.  1967 AAA ski guide:  Map shows "Timberline" at Grand Lake. 
  
  Summary:  Maybe more than one area, over time.  Weak data.


PALMER LAKE   (same), [very obscure],  Reader Tim remembers 
  a ski area northeast of Palmer Lake while he was growing up in
  Colorado Springs.  When was that?  One of our staffers has been
  in COS since 1964 and doesn't remember it.  There is a Spruce
  Mtn (a mesa) northeast of town.  About 5 years ago there was a
  plan to build a hotel on the top with gondola or tram access
  and a small ski slope on the north side.  Nothing happened. 
  Terrain and elevation would suggest that early ski areas around
  there would have been WEST of Palmer Lake.  We strike out.


RIST CANYON   (Fort Collins), [obscure], Located about half way 
  up Rist Canyon (just east of the Rist Canyon picnic ground)
  southwest of the town of Bellvue.  Operated in the seventies. 
  Has been seen and verified but doesn't show up in any map or
  text references.

  Vertical drop:  100-200 ft            Base:  7150  (est)
  Lifts:  one rope tow

Here is the network history (some paraphrasing and editing):

Stuart:  "a single t-bar and dozen runs".  A dozen, Stuart?

Phil:  "A rope tow on some private land.  Vertical on the order 
  of 75-80 ft on a single run.  Disappeared 3 to 4 years ago."

John:  (He lives in the area and worked hard at finding it) 
"Located at milepost 13.5.  A rope tow serving two runs was in
use until 1975 or 76.  The current owner removed the lower lift
shack in order to build a house in 1990.  From a detailed topo
map (you have the advantage of us, John) he estimates the base at
7120 ft with the hill itself rising to 7440 ft, but the lift only
went part way."

Summary:  The solid data we have on RIST CANYON are its precise
location (John also discussed bus stops and a park), approximate
but very close elevations and vertical drop, and type of lift. 
The weak data points are "years of operation" and whether or not
a "fee" was charged.  But, we certainly do have a NEW lost ski
area.  Thanks for everyone's help. 


  BOX SCORE:

RIST CANYON:  Definitely a real area.

CHICAGO LAKES:  A sighting and historic material come together, 
  sort of.

CAMERON PASS:  The data is there, we just have to find the area.

CHAUTAUQUA PARK:  Reliable sighting.  We need to read up on 
  Boulder history.

GRAND LAKE:  There is lots of data but it doesn't hang together. 
  More research.

PALMER LAKE:  Insufficient data.


Other:  We didn't have time to get into Hidden Valley/Estes Park
  which apparently had some early skiing before the familiar
  HIDDEN VALLEY area was built.   For another faithful reader,
  TRAIL MTN was already in our data base and will show up on a
  regular Lost Ski Area post. 


7.  THE EPILOG.  Here is some miscellany.

Does anybody out there know the status of SKI RIO in Costilla,
NM?   "The White Book of Ski Areas" didn't list it for the 91/92
season.  Didn't even list it as "doubtful, call before going".  

A couple of you have written:  "Keep up the good work."   We
appreciate that.  But the message we liked most was:  "Have fun." 
We are having fun.  This hobby used to be rather pedantic, a
study in statistics.  Then we printed a copy for a few friends. 
Then we met Mark and hit the Network.  Now we get feedback -
comments, questions, and NEW lost ski areas.  Much more fun. 
  "Feedback, more Feedback"  as Johnny Five would say.



                 ###  IMPORTANT NOTICE  ###    

*** THE COLORADO SKIER will be on vacation from 3 to 12 Sep ***

There will be no posts or E-Mail responses during that period.


Cheers from THE COLORADO SKIER   See ya real soon with Edition #5


  "I'm dating a woman who, evidently, is unaware of it."

        Gary Shandling, 1991

Newsgroups: rec.backcountry