From: aabdalla@pollux.usc.edu (Ahmed Abd-Allah)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Ref: Why I am not a Muslim [was re: Why I am an atheist/Christian...]
Date: 26 Aug 1992 10:10:50 -0700
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: pollux.usc.edu

>Article 67643 of talk.religion.misc:

>From: adams@spss.com (Steve Adams)
>
>'Scuse me while I butt in here...
>aabdalla@pollux.usc.edu (Ahmed Abd-Allah) writes:
>>In article <1992Aug25.124732.7122@ac.dal.ca> hartigan@ac.dal.ca writes:
>>>In article <l9jcc3INN3hm@pollux.usc.edu>, aabdalla@pollux.usc.edu (Ahmed Abd-Allah) writes:

[stuff deleted]

>>I've pointed out in a couple of other articles that the Bible has enough
>>errors that it's incorrect to call it 'true.'  The Qur'an is free of these
>>errors because it is from God Himself - it is not even an 'inspired' word
>>of a man; rather it is direct Divine revelation.
>
>Exactly as the typical Christian fundamentalist will claim for the Bible.
>Your claims for your particular set of scriptures are not different than
>the claims of the average 'plenary verbal inspiration' (ie God dictated the
>Bible) evangelical.
>Why should your claim stand up more than theirs?

Because the Qur'an and the Bible are not the same book.  Therefore, it is 
quite reasonable to ask people to judge each book on its own merit.  The
Bible has some discrepancies; the Qur'an does not.  This, in a nutshell, is
why 'my claim' is different.  As to whether it 'stands up' or not, I can't
convince you or anyone else: I've tried to emphasize in my earlier posts the
necessity of reading the Qur'an for oneself.  Please do not misinterpret the
spirit of my post here: I do not intend to come off sounding arrogant or
derogatory, and I hope you understand that.

>>>heart in the religion of one's childhood. "As the twig is bent, so grows the
>>>tree."  
>>The prophet of Islam told us something very similar to your surprising 
>>insight: "Every person is born a Muslim.  It is only his or her parents
>>who change them into Christians or Jews."  Don't overanalyze this statement.
>>The best interpretation is that Islam is the natural state of human at birth,
>>and that as the human grows and gains the power of reason, the parents can
>>unduely influence the child to the wrong path.
>Neat.  Christ told us not to hinder the children from coming to the Kingdom
>of heaven.  But who's the stumbling block?  We won't settle that one...Heck,
>that argument has been going on since the beginning of Judaism, within
>Judaism itself.
>> Read the Qur'an.  It supersedes the Bible.  It can't hurt you.
>It superseeds the Bible only for those who believe that it is inspired
>text.  If I do not believe the Qu'ran is divine revelation, as you put it,
>then it means nothing more than the Bahgavad Gita, which I have also read.
                                                                 ^^^^
By your use of "also" I assume this means you read the Qur'an.  What did you
find - or not find?

>And which I do not find applicable as a religion, at least to me.
>>In Arabic poetry (and any poetry actually), the meaning is subservient to
>>the words.  In the Qur'an, the meaning is what is absolutely important.
>Just as in the Bible.  The message of the text is far more important than
>the set of words.
>>Have you read what the Qur'an says on things like war, worship, taxes,
>>marriage, divorce, creation, law, embryology, entertainment, rain,
>>work, and other things?  Does the scope of its coverage tell you something
>>about whether it is "mythological poetry"? 
>If one does not believe in a Supreme Being, ALL gods are mythilogical.
>That's just the way it is.  Just as most modern people hold that the
>various gods of Rome and Greece were myhts, so do atheists hold that
>God/Allah (they are the same guy - God of Abraham, after all) are myths.

No argument from me: if one is an atheist, then all religions may seem
like mythology to that person.  That is a personal decision for everyone,
and it is directly influenced by the number of different religions that
person may run into.  An honest decision ought to be made on each religion,
otherwise the person may have settled on atheism based on insufficient
information.  

>>	Do you know of any other religion so similar to what Jesus
>>	spoke of, and yet is also at peace with what our minds tell
>>	us of the natural world?  
>Yeah, real Christianity.  Jesus' message is exactly what you say.  Any
>corruptions over the ages are in the same category as the corruptions that
>have entered Islam...like the Ayatollah Khomeni and his gang, for example.
                               ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Please elaborate with specifics otherwise I can't respond to you.

>The Bible itself makes no claims to speak to science.  If we understand
                  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

No, it does.  Explain Genesis for me.  Keep in mind that the Qur'an does
cover scientific topics here and there - but the difference is that it is
free of any discrepancies.

>that it accurately represents God's relationship with Man, and the rules
>under which he would have us live, we have taken from the Bible what was
>meant to be given...
>
>It is not, IMHO, reasonable to claim, as some scriptural literalists do, that 
>the Bible is inerrant on ALL topics.  The Bible, like all literature, makes
>use of allegory, metaphor, poetry, simile, parables, etc.  Nothing wrong
>with that, and it doesn't mean that it wasn't inspired.  Even direct,
>plenary verbal inspiration can allow for allegorical and metaphorical
>stories!  God can do anything, don't ya know.

You're right again: the Qur'an too uses various allegories, metaphors, etc.
However, it is stretching it somewhat to call the story of creation in 
Genesis a parable.

Based on your points and mine, I would suggest that you first read the 
Qur'an so that perhaps we can have some common ground to stand on (I
attended Catholic high school, and have read most of the Bible).  However,
this is only a suggestion (and, again, take it in the best of intentions).

>Islam is no more entitled to special pleading than Christiaity.  If you get 
>to use special pleading, then so do Christians.

I have not used any 'special pleading', and in fact, I've tried to emphasize
that there is no need for this in Islam because the Qur'an is truthful.

>God Bless...

And on you too.  Peace.

> -Steve

Ahmed Abd-Allah
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc,alt.atheism