From: hancock@inland.com (Tom Hancock)
Newsgroups: comp.os.vms
Subject: Help with text windowing packages: summary
Date: 28 Sep 92 19:08:03 CST
Organization: Inland Steel Company; East Chicago, IN

	Two weeks ago I requested some information on screen
design/forms packages.  Here is a summary of the replys.  First the
original post: (My comments/edits appear within brackets:[])

--------------------------Original Post------------------------------------
	I am planning to replace the screen design/forms package
that we use here.  Does anybody have experience with the available text
windowing packages out there?  The products I have under consideration
(so far):

Product		Producer
-----------------------------------------
DataWindows	Greenleaf Software
Vermont Views	Vermont Creative Software
C-Scape		Liant
Panel Plus II	RoundHill
Vitamin C	Creative Programming

Requirements:

* Must be able to develop applications that will function the same way
  under VMS, DOS and VAXeln with no [application] source code changes.

* The ability to display graphics in a window on the same screen as text.

* Screen design tool available or included.

* Source code available or included.

	Anything good to say about any of these?  Anything bad?  Other
pointers to articles, newsgroups, packages?  Please E-mail and I will
summarize and post.
	Thanks in advance.
						Tom
-----------------------End of Original Post-------------------------------
==========================================================================
garry@kirk.retix.com (Garry Star) replied:

I found that Vermont Views didn't have a version that would work
in DOS with the Watcom C/386 V9.0 (which we must use for other reasons).
Greenleaf did not have their Unix version shipping yet...
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anders Thulin ath@linkoping.trab.se replied:

>
>Product		Producer
>-----------------------------------------
> [ ... ]
>C-Scape		Liant

>	Anything good to say about any of these?  Anything bad?  Other
>pointers to articles, newsgroups, packages?

There was an article by Ian Ashdown in C User's Journal about a year
and a half ago, which gave a fairly good summary of the capabilities
at that time.

I have used it for a short while about a year ago. It is solid, and
works more or less as they claim.  The only negative thing I have
found is that C-Scape decides about look-and-feel policy. If you don't
like the look-and-feel provided you can't change it (unless you're
prepared to rewrite code.) But this appears to be true for all
packages, even though they seldom say so.

Of course, things may have change since then.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tim Frost <tim@rcsl.demon.co.uk> replied:

We have a free demo disk (DOS + Windows) for PANEL Plus II.  Call 
our USA sales office on (708) 690 3737 if you would like a copy.  

We only support graphics modes on the PC, not on Unix or VMS 
systems.  PANEL Plus II basically handles text data entry, menus,
pop-ups, scrolling regions, etc.  On the PC we can operate in
graphics mode through various graphics libraries, which you can use 
to display graphics alongside your text or in separate windows.  
The workstation versions use a terminal emulator such as Xterm; in 
many environments the Xterm support includes mouse support.  Full 
library source code is included with PANEL Plus II, including 
variants for all supported systems. A screen designer is also 
included; there is a restricted version of this on the demo disk.

If you have any specific questions, please send me E-mail.

:::: Tim Frost :::::::::::::: Roundhill Computer Systems Limited ::::
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Marlborough SN8 1SU England ::::
:::: tim@rcsl.demon.co.uk :::::::: +44 (0) 672 84 535 (fax: 525) ::::

[Please note that Mr. Frost represents the company that produces
 PANEL Plus II.  T. Hancock ]


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Projet2 Famus <famus2@dmi.usherb.ca> (Steven Woolgar) replied:
Hi,

I've used C-Scape extensively.  The product has a very steep learning curve
but the generated APP is great.  I left them when Liant bought the product.

Just before they started upping their prices and introduced this BULLSHIT
preferred client thing.  That means that people who never call for tech
support (those unwilling to pay a yearly fee) are never told about upgrades
because they haven't paid the couple of hundred US dollars for tech support.

Documentation was incomplete at best.

Source was included, I don't know what has happened since Liant (IBM lovers)
took over.

The source was well commented/layed out.

Speed was good.

Code size was large, but I want to recompile using MSC 7 p-code, this
should really help.

If you have any other specific questions, mail me...


Steven Woolgar
CHUS-FAMUS
e-mail: famus2@dmi.usherb.ca

PS

I've also used H.I.M, which is the worst piece of shit I have
ever used, even briefly!

----------------------------------------------------------------
levin@world.std.com (Levin F Magruder) :

When I was just a beginner in C, I got and learned C-scape.  A
beginner can use it. (It used a lot of function pointers, but
as I recall it explained how to use them...)  It is flexible.
There were some bugs in the date routines, but that was a long
time ago, they're probably fixed.  

I haven't used it since version 2.

[and in another message: T. Hancock]


I've forgotten your message by now (24 hrs have gone by)... It seems like
you were looking for something high end.  If that's not necessary, 
I have just picked up a freeware package which seems adequate for basic
menus made from linked lists.

It does not have field handling capabilities like c-scape.

I wish I had $600...		[So do I!  Luckily, I'm spending the
company's money, not mine.     T. Hancock]

---------------------------------------------------------------------

 johnb@searchtech.com (John Baldwin) replied:


   I reviewed several text windowing libraries for a previous employer,
   about 2.5 - 3 years ago.  Limited to the list you gave (since I don't
   know about cross-platform availability):

   Product		Comments
   -------------------	----------------------------------------------------
   Vermont Views	Easily the most mature of the list.  It has been
			around for a long time and they just keep on making
			it better.  It was hard to memorize the function
			names though --- they were a bit counter-intuitive.
			I had used this library (then called Windows for C)
			before on a project for a consulting firm in [1987].
			This is the top-seller in the MSDOS world.

   GL DataWindows	Second-largest seller in the MSDOS arena.  Quick,
			slim code.  The function names were more intuitive
			to me and the team.  I ended up selecting it for
			this reason, and because I wanted to use several
			libraries without mixing vendors.

   Panel Plus II	No experience.

   Vitamin C		Somewhat negative hearsay evidence from others.

   C-Scape		Avoid!!  The last time I examined this, it was, in my
			opinion, VERY SLOW clunky code.  It seemed to have
			been developed in a workstation environment and then
			ported to MSDOS.  It simply did not exploit the
			machine well enough.


   Assuming that "Vermont Views" and "DataWindows" meet your
   platform/portability requirements, I could recommend either one.
   They meet the rest of your requirements and are stable and robust.


Hope this helps!
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
============================================================================

	My thanks to all who responded.  We have not decided on the specific
package we will use, yet, but your input is well appreciated.
	Thanks again.

							Tom
-- 
hancock@inland.com          |My company and I agree:
Tom Hancock -- Assoc. Engr. |    I speak for myself, and not the company!
<i> Inland Steel Co. <i>    |
Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.unix.misc,comp.misc