HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jerry@connection.prospect.com (Jerry Shekhel)
Subject: Re:   C= policy (Re: Apple problems "Home computer")
Organization: Molecular Simulations, Inc.
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1992 21:38:44 GMT

root@rkamiga.UUCP (Rick Kelly) writes:
>
>The bottom end of the PC market is so low now, that quality assurance is
>starting to suffer.  There are 386/486 pc clones being sold that can't run
>in protected mode due to timing and other problems.  The boards are being
>designed and slapped into systems as fast as they can make them.  The
>result is very cheap boxes that can run MSDOS, and that's it.
>

This is serious BS.  Nobody sells anything these days that doesn't run
Windows, which requires strict compatibility as well as protected mode
operation.  I don't know where you get this stuff.  If anything, the
quality of low-end clones has been getting better.  They all run Windows,
have large caches, and are expandable to at least 32MB RAM.

>
>They are
>being sold at such a low margin, and there are so many companies trying
>to undercut each other, that there will soon be a point where small clone
>companies will start dropping like flies.  The prices will ease back up
>to the DELL or Gateway level.
>

Ha!  We'll see...

>
>Rick Kelly		Rick's Amiga		Framingham, Mass.
>
--
+-------------------+-----------------------+--------------------------------+
| Jerry J. Shekhel  | Molecular Simulations | Time just fades the pages      |
| Drummers do it... | Inc.  Waltham, MA USA | in my book of memories.        |
|    ... In rhythm! |     (617) 890-2888    |              -- Guns N' Roses  |
+-------------------+-----------------------+--------------------------------+
|           ...! [ princeton mit-eddie bu sunne ] !polygen!jerry             |
|                            jerry@polygen.com                               |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
From: dano@usl.edu (Dan Stephenson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: The Under $10K Unix Workstation!
Date: 6 Apr 92 17:05:57 GMT
Article-I.D.: srl05.dano.702579957
Organization: Univ. of Southwestern Louisiana

kls30@duts.ccc.amdahl.com (Kent L Shephard) writes:

>In article <1992Mar28.014407.15858@cs.mcgill.ca> jerry@cs.mcgill.ca (Gerald (Jerry) KUCH) writes:
>*stuff deleted*
>>But, between the fact that there probably isn't an overwhelming number of 
>>people who want UNIX at home, and the fact that Commodore's marketing eats
>>goats, and the fact that NeXT in spite of all their hype isn't landing mach-
>>ines anywhere but in schools, it's pretty doubtful.

>Really?  No NeXT machines in the home.  I guess the one I have at home is
>just part of my imagination.  I guess the people I know that have them at
>home really don't. I guess the NeXTstation color that my sister ordered is
>not real.  I guess the NeXTstation color that one of my friends ordered
>is not real either.
>           Kent

Come now Kent.  You mustn't always take people claims of absolute
seriously all the time.  It was obvious to _me_, in any case, that
'[no next in home]' is merely suggestive of NeXTs extremely low numbers
(*AND*, to clarify this, 'low numbers' is in relative terms, since you 
take things with such a different POV from others)

-Dan
.


>--
>/*  -The opinions expressed are my own, not my employers.    */
>/*      For I can only express my own opinions.              */
>/*                                                           */
>/*   Kent L. Shephard  : email - kls30@DUTS.ccc.amdahl.com   */
--
Daniel Anthony Stephenson dano@nasa15.usl.edu das9674@usl.edu 
"I'm a staunch Independant.  Every time I think I am a Republican, they
 do something greedy, and every time I think I am a Democrat, to go and
do someting stupid." - Jay Leno from _60 Minutes_ interview 3/15/1992
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: jerry@connection.prospect.com (Jerry Shekhel)
Subject: Re: 040 and 486_ (bunch O' Kaka anyway)
Organization: Molecular Simulations, Inc.
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1992 16:58:15 GMT

lindblad@cc.helsinki.fi writes:
>
>Because we did not want to see which compiler generates the best code or which
>code generator on GCC is better but to see which CPU is faster - however it's
>my opinion, that you can not test the speed of different CPUs of different
>families with benchmarks or applications. All testing _must_ be done in theory.
>					   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Jarkko, I think we've finally hit the reason for all our arguing -- we're
not looking for the same thing.  You don't care about real-life performance,
and I don't care which chip's specifications look more macho on paper.  Let's
end it:  I agree that the 040 looks better on paper.  Unfortunately, it
doesn't seem to translate into a higher (integer) performance in real life.

>> know that GCC won't produce optimal 680x0 code, nor will it produce optimal
>> 80486 code.  However, the quality of its code will be indicative of (if not
>
>What if 68040 needs very much optimizing and 486 only a little and GCC
>optimizes as much on each CPU or vice versa.
>

You're speculating that GCC by default (no optimization) produces better
code for the 486 than the 68040.  Where did you get this idea?

>
>> That's stupid, Mike.  We could play these games for hours.  "Well, on the x86
>> you don't have to do any looping in order to copy or fill a block of memory."
>
>Well, the speed in which 68040 copies blocks is however quite good as there is
>new move16-instruction on it (it uses burst reads and burst writes to copy 16
>bytes) (well, of course the is a small performace hit becuse we need one or two
>instructions more to copy large areas, but still copying is very fast). Does
>486 have burst writes?
>

Yes.

>
>Jarkko Lindblad
>
--
+-------------------+-----------------------+--------------------------------+
| Jerry J. Shekhel  | Molecular Simulations | Time just fades the pages      |
| Drummers do it... | Inc.  Waltham, MA USA | in my book of memories.        |
|    ... In rhythm! |     (617) 890-2888    |              -- Guns N' Roses  |
+-------------------+-----------------------+--------------------------------+
|           ...! [ princeton mit-eddie bu sunne ] !polygen!jerry             |
|                            jerry@polygen.com                               |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
From: kdarling@garfield.catt.ncsu.edu (Kevin Darling)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Video Machine - Toaster Sales Killer?
Date: 9 Apr 92 22:40:59 GMT
Organization: North Carolina State University


 
   "The Video Machine can best be understood as a high-end Video Toaster.
 It takes standard video inputs and allows for full frame-by-frame editing.
   "Unlike the Toaster, which runs only on the Commodore Amiga and requires
 the NTSC video found in the US, the Video Machine is an add-in board
 for PCs and Macintoshes that also handles European PAL or SECAM inputs,
 allowing the editor to mix-and-match them."  

So says Newsbytes about the COMDEX debut of Munich-based FAST Electronic's
"Video Machine", an addon video editing, titling and special effects board.
The system is based on a new Philips video controller chip.  Other quotes:

The Video Machine is able to cut and mix live video.  It requires no extra
hardware such as TBCs or editing decks.  The video output and both inputs
accommodate FBAS and S-Video signals.  It can mix PAL and NTSC sources.

It includes an library of over 100 digital video effects, such as slides,
curtain effects, panning, scrolling, fades, splits, strobes, continuously
adjustable zoom and shrink, and negative and blue box effects.

Video Machine runs on any Mac II with the Apple 13" color monitor and at
least 4 MB main memory. It also runs on IBM/AT and compatibles with 16-bit
slot or PS/2 systems with MCA/640KB memory under DOS 3.3+ or Windows 3.0+.

Availability is slated for this December at $4000, with the price predicted
to drop dramatically as sales take off.

So, has anyone here seen this system at either COMDEX or the last CEBIT?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.games,comp.sys.amiga.misc,comp.sys.amiga.multimedia,comp.sys.amiga.graphics,comp.sys.amiga.hardware
From: gerald@seas.gwu.edu (Gerald G. Washington)
Subject: Re: Considering switching to IBM
Organization: George Washington University
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1992 02:28:05 GMT

chucks@pnet51.orb.mn.org (Erik Funkenbusch) writes:
>tron1@tronsbox.UUCP (Kenneth Jamieson) writes:
>>	(for the record, I also only have a A1000 from the 85/86 days)
>>
>>	And I can honestly say that there are almost no programs that
>>make use of any feature I don't have.
>>
>>	Yeah - here's something to be proud of! ( 1/2 :-) )
>
>Um... let's see here, i'll start naming them off the top of my head.
>
>ProVideo Post (requires 1 meg chip ram)
>Duluxe Paint (uses extra halfbrite)
>Prowrite 3.2 (has 256 color modes)
>Art Department Pro (has 256 color, Ham8, and other modes)
>Scala (uses 1280x200/400 modes and productivity modes i believe)
>Deluxe Paint IV (has 256 color, Ham8 and other modes)
>The countless number of PD, Shareware and Commercial programs that are either
>2.0 ONLY or have extended features under 2.0 such as
>Prowrite 3.2, TurboText, Cygnus Ed, BBX, WShell 2.0, PowerPacker 4.0a, etc..
>etc.. etc..  
>
>And this is off the top of my head.  Most of these are MAJOR apps too.

Curious.  How do you know his A1000 does not have these features?  There are
many upgrade paths for the A1000, including replacing its motherboard with
an A2000-type board.

-- Gerald
From: 01ksdavis@bsu-ucs.uucp
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: Re: Video Machine - Toaster Sales Kill
Date: 15 Apr 92 00:32:28 GMT
Article-I.D.: bsu-ucs.1992Apr14.193228.6388


	Guilty as charged-I initially took the side that it is vaporware, but 
had to face facts when my best buddy Elvis Presley bought one so he can use it
on the UFO fleet that he has been commanding ever since his supposed death. :-)
	I could, too, have been a writer!

	First of all, I think that you did make some good points.  As a matter
of fact, I would like to explain away some of them with the simple reasoning
that New Tek has been taking management lessons from Commodore.
	Example #1:  The folks at New Tek were going to make the awesome video
studio in a box for the Commodore Amiga, so they build it, and totally ignore
considering one of the biggest Amiga markets in the world (Europe) while they
are designing it.
	Example #2:  Version 2 of the Toaster and what I think is an
unjustifiable price hike.  As far as I can tell, the only added features of
Version 2 besides more DVEs is bug fixes.  Between version 1 and version 2,
there were Amiga users in Europe SCREAMING for a PAL compatible toaster. 
Again, their demands went ignored.  Meanwhile, the TBC industry is making mucho
deniro off of Video Toaster users along with the Accelerator industry.  The
price hike has also alienated many Amiga users from ever going into the Video
world-I came this close to buying a Toaster, and then they raised the price on
me and changed the carton it came in.  This whole price hike has shades of the
Amiga 2000 price hike that Commodore has gotten a lot of flack from, both here
in America, and abroad in Europe.
	Notice that example 2, mostly concerned with money, gets the most
flames from me.
	There should also be no reason why it wouldn't work on a bridgeboard
equipped Amiga, which provides a good reason to buy a bridgeboard, I suppose.

	Well, that's about as logical as I can get without any dinner.

	Only Amiga makes it possible?

	//
       // Kyle
    \\//
From: peterk@public.sub.org (Peter Kittel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: C= policy (Re: Apple problems "Home computer")
Date: 13 Apr 92 13:26:35 GMT
Organization: Public News & Mailserver, Commodore Germany PM UNIX, Frankfurt

tron1@tronsbox.UUCP (Kenneth Jamieson) writes:

>	Heh. With the var prices on SX motherboards under 200$ I would
>say 286's are effectively dead.

Well, but there are different markets. Commodore just only abandoned
the 8088 XTs, but now we have a brand-new 286 with 16 MHz, and it's
supposed to sell like h*ll.

-- 
Best regards, Dr. Peter Kittel  // E-Mail to  \\  Only my personal opinions... 
Commodore Frankfurt, Germany  \X/ {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!cbmger!peterk
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: gerald@seas.gwu.edu (Gerald G. Washington)
Subject: Re: Considering switching to IBM
Organization: George Washington University
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1992 02:38:30 GMT

wulf@elfie.async.vt.edu (Jake Rose) writes:
>For those of us with 2.04, there's also the NickPrefs preferences extension,
>which has a background image preferences program.  It blows wallp, tapestry,
>tapete, etcetera away.

Would you care to elaborate?  Not all of us have 2.04, yet.

-- Gerald
From: daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: Intel HW
Date: 16 Apr 92 23:52:42 GMT
Article-I.D.: cbmvax.30379
Reply-To: daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie)
Organization: Commodore, West Chester, PA

In article <1992Apr11.060632.14773@ux.acs.umn.edu> har@ux.acs.umn.edu (--SeebS--) writes:

>Perhaps Mr. Haynie can help us out here... What *is* the maximum airspeed
>of an unladen A3000?

African or European?
-- 
Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Amiga 3000) "The Crew That Never Rests"
   {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh      BIX: hazy
      "What would they do if I just sailed away?" -Jimmy Buffett
 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: philip@utstat.uucp (Philip McDunnough)
Subject: Re:  Mac OS just sucks -- "ease of use" = "lack of freedom"
Organization: University of Toronto, Dept. of Statistics
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1992 06:09:19 GMT

In article <1992Apr10.124525.7113@ms.uky.edu> justin@mik.uky.edu (Justin Sullivan) writes:

[ ]
>
>Word 5 is MORE then adequate for long technical documents. Word 4 was not.  
>(FrameMaker was, though)
>I am well aware of the fact that AMS has put their support behind TeX. That's  
>because TeX can be used on any platform, and it does the job. Word 5 would make  
>the job much easier, but not everyone uses a Mac. Most AMS members use UNIX  
>systems or mainframes of some sort, where text is the only way you have to  
>interact with the system (except for X). 

Most AMS members do not only use Unix systems. Many have Mac's and they use
Textures on it. Some have PC's and they use PC-TeX. The Amiga users use
AmigaTeX,etc...
 
I'm glad you've brought up FrameMaker. Go into equation mode and try to 
use various macros, change fonts,...It's hardly a joy using Frame for
mathematical documents and I have it staring at me on my NeXT as I type.

Let's see re Word 5.0 . How does it deal with equation numbering? Will it
update the numbers and the references to them in text? What about references,
bibliography,...I'm not convinced. There are many people who have Word
around here, and WordPerfect 5.1, and Ami Pro, etc...They all think it will
do the job, but in the final analysis it just doesn't. At the very least 
you should have mentioned MathWriter Pro on the Mac, as it has a chance.

Until I start seeing our secretaries and other math department ones
changing over from TeX I simply won't be convinced.

The reason for the AMS using TeX is not at all what you state. There is a
well developed sett of macros for TeX (AMSTeX and many others). TeX is a
typesetting language which speeds up the time from submission to 
publication. Just give me a few references which have been typed in Word. I
really think you are underestimating the difficulty of typing out a 
mathematical document.

Philip McDunnough
philip@utstat.toronto.edu

Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: torrie@cs.stanford.edu (Evan Torrie)
Subject: Re: Mac & IBM advocates read this!
Originator: torrie@Xenon.Stanford.EDU
Organization: CS Department, Stanford University, California, USA
Date: 10 Apr 92 03:02:31 GMT

skip@tacky.cs.olemiss.edu (Skip 'AdaX' Sauls) writes:

>Mac & IBM advocates:

>Just out of curiosity, what other newsgroups do you guys read?

  I don't read the ibm newsgroups, but I do read the mac/next/apple2
newsgroups, the c++ newsgroup, comp.arch, comp.benchmarks, 68K/88K
groups, plus a few others in and outside the comp hierarchy.
  I also happen to read a lot of magazines.
-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Evan Torrie.  Stanford University, Class of 199?       torrie@cs.stanford.edu 
Blasphemy is a victimless crime.                     NZ for the America's Cup!
From: om@dist.dist.unige.it (Mauro Migliardi. DIST University of Genoa. Italy. +39 010 3532709/510278)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: 040 and 486 and nap42487 knows nothing about CPUs.
Date: 13 Apr 92 13:17:55 GMT
Organization: DIST - Universita` di Genova, Italy

Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: 040 and 486 and nap42487 knows nothing about CPUs.
Summary: 
Expires: 
Followup-To: 
Distribution: 
Organization: DIST - Universita` di Genova, Italy
Keywords: 

In article <1992Apr12.235751.26074@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> nap42487@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (N. A. Patel) writes:
>I'll tell you wy the benchmarks are accurate. One,you seem to know exactly
>what my FP benchmarks do. Why don't you send me a copy of the source code

Nothing to do with this 040 vs 486 war, but does anyone here around knows
where is possible to find the source code of the mentioned benchs? Are they
PD? Does anyone who has them has the kindness of sending them to me via
E-mail? I'm interested in performance benchmarking and it would be helpful
to me to be able to sniff around those proggies.
Thanks in advance.

Bye.

[lot of stuff deleted]

--
*Mauro Migliardi,PhD student at Department*If I, as I'm not you, cannot know *
*of Comunications and Computer Science    *what you know, then you as you are*
*University of Genoa (ITALY)		  *not a fish, cannot understand the *
*E-mail om@dist.dist.unige.it		  *fishes' happiness. (Huei Tzu) *
From: gerald@seas.gwu.edu (Gerald G. Washington)
Subject: Re: 040 and 486_ (bunch O' Kaka anyway)
Organization: George Washington University
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1992 00:19:37 GMT

jerry@connection.prospect.com (Jerry Shekhel) writes:
>har@ux.acs.umn.edu (--SeebS--) writes:
>>[humorous stuff about 040 vs. 486]
[...]
>This from the dude who blasts my .sig for being irrelevant.
[...]
>Peter, do you actually believe your BS, or do you just use it for harrassment?
[...]
>You're missing a lot of things...

Hmm, what was Mr. Shekhel saying about arrogance...?

-- Gerald
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: davidme@qdpii.comp.qdpi.oz.au (David Meiklejohn)
Subject: Re: EISA vs. ZorroIII
Organization: Qld Dept Primary Industries
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1992 10:20:00 GMT

In article <1992Apr7.030106.14814@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> nap42487@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Nishith A. Patel) writes:
>mhw42412@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Michael Hwa Wu) writes:
>
>>Hi,
>>	If I'm not mistaken, EISA runs at about 8 Mhz.  MCA (IBM's 32 bit
>>architecture) runs at about 1/2 the speed of the cpu.  So a 33 Mhz 486
>>would have 16.5 Mhz slots ( I could be completely and utterly wrong ).
>>	So the only way a PC could get 33 Mhz, 32-bit wide busses is to
>>get an actual IBM PS/2 with a 66 Mhz processor.
>>.
>
>You are mistaken.

So are you.  (How's that for an elegant rebuttal - am too, are not, nyaah
nyaah!  :^)

>Where did you get these numbers?

He probably got them from a land known as "reality" - ever heard of it?

Here are the facts...

EISA will go quite fast, as in 32 MHz, until you plug in one of the old AT
bus cards that are so common.  The standard speed for the ISA (AT) bus is
8.3 MHz.  Many ISA systems have the option of running the bus faster than
that, but they can't go too much faster, or all those common things like VGA
cards, I/O cards and HD controllers stop working.

Now, the reason for existence of the EISA bus is that it's backward compatible
with ISA boards.  It was developed as an alternative to MCA so that people
wouldn't have to junk their old investment in ISA cards (and also so that the
clone builders wouldn't have to pay royalties to IBM  ;-).

You can run EISA fast, sure, but to do it you need all EISA boards, and that's
very expensive.  Suddenly PCs don't seem so cheap...

As for MCA, yes, it really does run at 16 MHz in most PS/2s, and in some of
them, it goes slower than that.  Faster implementations are possible, such as
in the RS/6000, but that's somewhat different, and we're talking about PCs
here.



-- 

David Meiklejohn                  | Internet : davidme@qdpii.comp.qpdi.oz.au
Computer Systems Officer, QDPI    | Fax      : +61 70 92 3593
Mareeba, Australia                | Voice    : +61 70 92 1555
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: leavitt@cheshire.oxy.edu (Thomas VanNess Leavitt)
Subject: Re: Intel HW
Organization: Occidental College, Los Angeles, CA  90041
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1992 22:26:44 GMT


24 bit color on the Amiga, as far as I can tell, is much more accessible
and less expensive and more widely used than on an IBM.

Thom
From: slvj6@cc.usu.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: 040 and 486_ (bunch O' Kaka anyway)
Date: 13 Apr 92 00:27:39 MDT
Organization: Utah State University

In article <1992Apr12.215857.2813@ctr.columbia.edu>, jerry@connection.prospect.com (Jerry Shekhel) writes:
> In article <1992Apr12.215747.1@cc.helsinki.fi> lindblad@cc.helsinki.fi writes:
>>
>>> Nish Patel   nap42487@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu
>>
>>Please, stop writing your clueless postings as you do not seem to know
>>anything about what your talking about.
>>
> 
> Ha!  And you do?!  Really Jarkko, you did *just* what Nish did.  You posted
> benchmarks which prove your point.  BTW, it's well known that HP's 040
> machines do about twice as well on benchmarks as other 040 machines.  They
> obviously found a way to optimize their compilers to fool the benchmarks.

Gee, or possibly they just generate better code perhaps?
Could it be that their compilers make everything run faster and not just
benchmarks?

Heavens no!
They don't have Intel processors!  
;-)

Pardon the sarchasm Jerry, but this is the type of response we have grown to
expect from you.

Lets see... what companies use the 040?  Apple, HP, ???...  of the people that
do use them, just who is more likely to invest more money on a better compiler?

The current Amiga compilers generate really poor code, and the Borland and
Microsoft compilers generate pretty good code by comparison.
I'm sure your happy to compare them.

What your saying is that it's fair to compair a good compiler with a rotton one
when doing benchmarks as long as it's in your favor, but it's annother matter
when the the competition is better.  Then it's fooling the benchmarks.

Just who's fooling who?

Now I remember why I can't stand reading c.s.a.a... it takes too long to shovel
the bull-s*** off my desk after reading the postings...

> | Jerry J. Shekhel  | Molecular Simulations | Time just fades the pages      |

James
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: justin@graphlab.cc.uky.edu  (Justin Sullivan)
Subject: Re:  Mac OS just sucks -- "ease of use" = "lack of freedom"
Organization: University Of Kentucky, Dept. of Math Sciences
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1992 20:46:15 GMT
X-Bytes: 

Bruce Albrecht writes
> Actually, with Soft-Logik's Hotlinks, you've got the equivalent of Publish &
> Subscribe, albeit with fewer applications supporting it.  I don't know how  
many
> apps support P&S yet, but it's probably still under 20.

Wrong.. QuickTime has over a hundred application followers. P&S has many more  
then 20.. :)

--
*******************************************************************************
* "Imagine sky.. High above, in Caribbean Blue.." <sigh>                      *
* The University of Kentucky doesn't pay well enough to share my opinions.    *
*******************************************************************************
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy