HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: warren@nysernet.org (Warren Burstein)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: society as the basis for religion (was Re: What is Jewish religion?)
Date: 22 Jul 92 03:54:44 GMT
Reply-To: warren@nysernet.org
Organization: Mail to News Gateway at Wang Labs

In <LERNER.92Jul21174434@division.cs.columbia.edu> lerner@cs.columbia.edu (Michah Lerner) writes:

>Well, here we are again.  The term "ultra-orthodox" is horrible and
>derogatory, as if it says "excessively".  How about just "Orthodox"?
>Is there a better term?

I don't know if there is a better English term (Charedi works in
Hebrew), but if one is going to already make distinctions beyond
just "Jew", it seems that "Orthodox" tries to cover too much territory
and that some additional qualifier is needed.
-- 
/|/-\/-\       The entire world		Jerusalem
 |__/__/_/     is a very bitter signature virus.
 |warren@      But the Kibo
/ nysernet.org is not all that concerned.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: rayman@cupid.uucp (25142-rayman)
Subject: Re: Linguistic Purity (was Re: Hidden agenda?)
Reply-To: rayman@cc.bellcore.com
Organization: Bellcore, Livingston, NJ
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 92 13:45:49 GMT

In article <4043@bimacs.BITNET> ehrlich@bimacs.BITNET (Gideon Ehrlich) writes:
>
>the Eretz-yisrael-talmud is written in Hebrew.
>
>
>Shalom   Gideon Ehrlich   Eretz Tisrael
>
The Talmud Yerushalmi (Jerusalem Talmud), is written in Palestinian
Aramaic (this is what the linguists call it).

Moshe Rayman
rayman@cc.bellcore.com
From: warren@nysernet.org (Warren Burstein)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: society as the basis for religion (was Re: What is Jewish religion?)
Date: 23 Jul 92 10:31:12 GMT
Reply-To: warren@nysernet.org
Organization: Mail to News Gateway at Wang Labs

In <14k4i9INNe65@darkstar.UCSC.EDU> sutin@helios.ucsc.edu (Brian Sutin) writes:

>How about Turbo-Orthodox?  Has a nice, modern ring to it, no?

No, that term refers to people who can say every word in the
traditional siddur at speeds that the non-Turbo cannot attain.
-- 
/|/-\/-\       The entire kitchen		Jerusalem
 |__/__/_/     is a very narrow carrot.
 |warren@      But the chef
/ nysernet.org is not worried at all.
From: drukier@crisium.geop.ubc.ca (Gordon Drukier)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Multiple Hechshers
Date: 30 Jul 92 01:08:17 GMT
Organization: University of B.C. Geophysics & Astronomy

rwerman@vms.huji.ac.il (ROBERT WERMAN) writes:
>They even give hechshers on bottled water, to my mind unbelievable.  

Someone knowledgable about these matters told me that water bottlers
sometimes buy used equipment from dairies. 

If you want processed food, you have to worry about how they did the
processing. Anyone for a Jewish back-to-the-land movement?
-- 
Gordon 
drukier@geop.ubc.ca (Internet)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (samuel.saal)
Subject: Mohel (was Re: What is Jewish religion?)
Organization: NetNews Readers Anonymous
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 13:24:41 GMT

In article <1992Jul24.143106.3549@cbfsb.cb.att.com>
hillel@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (hillel.e.markowitz) writes:

->Please note that nowhere does it say a professional mohel must
->perform a bris just as nowhere does it say that a professional
->Rabbi must certify kashrus or a Doctor is the only one to heal.

->In all case, we turn to the appropriate expert in the field because
->he knows how to do it properly and what is involved.  THat is why
->we use a mohel, he has studied and practiced and is an expert at
->both the halachik and medical aspects of milah (and both are
->required).

->There are a number of doctors who will get a mohel in for a
->circumcision (even of nonJews) as an operation because of their
->expertise (if only based on sheer numbers).

And, quite frankly, when cutting that area, I'd want the most experienced
cutter I could find.
-- 
Sam Saal      homxb!saal OR saal@homxb.att.com
	Vayiftach HaShem et Peah Ha`Aton
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: alondon@oracle.uucp (Adam London)
Subject: Goodbye
Organization: Oracle Corporation, Chicago, IL
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1992 07:34:19 GMT
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by an unauthenticated user
              at Oracle Corporation.  The opinions expressed are those
              of the user and not necessarily those of Oracle.

I have been a reader of this newsgroup for almost 2 years now and as a third
generation Reform Jew it had been my hope that I would be able to learn
something from my more 'book' educated cousins.  But, this last round of
Reform bashing has driven me to the point where after this message I will be
unsubscribing from this newsgroup.  I do not do this lightly - who would
not develop a tougher mental 'skin' after reading this newsgroup for two
years?! - but I will no longer tolerate the many anti-Reform posters.  But
before I go, I wish to share a few thoughts.

Many of you have gone out of your way to alienate, misunderstand, blindly
criticise, hastely judge, and trivialize any and every Reform Jew and anything
that these individuals may have to say.  Many of you feel you are doing the
right thing and are totally correct in your judgements, but completely fail to
evaluate, understand or accept as valid other posters feelings or beliefs.  All
that seems to happen here is that any Reform Jew's message is likely to kick
off a series of increasingly hostile attacks upon this poor individual's
believes and values.  Frankly, I am no longer willing to put up with type of
behavior.  If this was my house I'd throw all of you out and tell you never to
return.  But since this is not, I will leave and never return.

I send this message in the vain hope that one of you will read this and it
will make you evaluate not this message but yourself and your own words and
actions.  I, as a Reform Jew, do not ask you to change your own belief system,
but to learn to accept others and their beliefs.

Goodbye.

Adam London
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: dfs@doe.carleton.ca (David F. Skoll)
Subject: See you in September
Organization: Dept. of Electronics, Carleton University
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 19:40:38 GMT

Well, I'm off until September.  Today's the last day of my job, and
in September, I return in my new persona as a graduate student.

It's been fun.  Shabbat Shalom to everyone, and please excuse me
for going out with a bang. :-)

Regards,

David F. Skoll

Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: lazarus@wixer.cactus.org (Michael Lax)
Subject: Re: Death Penalty & Jewish Law
Organization: Real/Time Communications
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 92 02:13:38 GMT

In article <5674@nosc.NOSC.MIL> mgross@halibut.nosc.mil (Michelle K. Gross) wri
tes:
>Last week's Torah portion, Pinchas, which was read at synagogues all
>over the world seems to support the death penalty for the described
>circumstance.



And what about "Thou Shalt Not Kill"?  Last time I checked, _that_ came from
the Bible, too.  And while supporters of the death penalty can play nifty
semantic games which somehow differentiate between the meaning of "kill" and
"execute", both actions are the taking of human life.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: rivk@quads.uchicago.edu (nora gayle rivkis)
Subject: Re: Anti-Orthodoxy (was Re: O-C-R debate)
Reply-To: rivk@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 17:31:50 GMT

In article <1992Jul31.162759.27127@porthos.cc.bellcore.com> er@iscp.Bellcore.COM (Elie Rosenfeld) writes:
>In article <1992Jul30.204110.17057@midway.uchicago.edu>, rivk@quads.uchicago.edu (nora gayle rivkis) writes:
>|> I can think of several things the Orthodox do that Reform thinks is
>|> wrong:  ....
>|> ..... Eating meat from animals that, while
>|> they may have been slaughtered according to the requirements of kashruth,
>|> were not treated in a humane fashion when they were alive, is another
>|> example.
>
>Are you implying that Reform mandates (or at least urges) vegetarianism?
>Or that they have a form of Hachgacha that ensures that all animals eaten
>by Reform Jews were treated humanely throughout their lives?  Or do you
>just mean that Reform opposes cruelty to animals?  If the latter, then that
>is not a valid example of a difference between Reform and Orthodox.

Reform does encourage vegetarianism or very careful research into the
source of the animal products you are buying, to ensure that the animals
were treated humanely throughout their lives. My synagogue bulletin board
runs articles on which products to avoid and lists of which brands are
considered acceptable.

>Elie Rosenfeld      

	-Nora
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (samuel.saal)
Subject: Re: the conversion can of worms, again (was Re: Anti-Orthodoxy ...)
Organization: NetNews Readers Anonymous
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 17:14:28 GMT

In article <dfs.712504378@ro> dfs@doe.carleton.ca (David F. Skoll) writes:
>In <1992Jul30.130347.11477@cbnewsl.cb.att.com> saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com
>(samuel.saal) writes:

>>That or the
>>Orthodox would have to start demanding much more careful geneological
>>record keeping.

>That's true.  But why should they shift their burden onto a secular
>government, 85% of whose constituents are not Orthodox?  Keeping track
>of such things is not my problem, it's yours. :-)

This lack of concern exhibited initially by the Reform leaders, and now
filtering down through the laity, is a prime example of the divisiveness of
the patrilinial descent.
-- 
Sam Saal      homxb!saal OR saal@homxb.att.com
	Vayiftach HaShem et Peah Ha`Aton
From: weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Anti-Orthodoxy (was Re: O-C-R debate)
Date: 31 Jul 92 18:57:03 GMT
Reply-To: weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener)
Organization: The Wistar Institute of Anatomy and Biology
In-reply-to: rivk@quads.uchicago.edu (nora gayle rivkis)

In article <1992Jul31.181615.2965@midway.uchicago.edu>, rivk@quads (nora gayle rivkis) writes:
>The definitions of fit and unfit species, the rules regarding the
>health condition of the animal, and the rules regarding method of
>slaughter are the minimum that most Reform Jews I know keep and the
>minimum most Reform Rabbis I know require.

Do they also reject bacon eating converts from their less strict brethren?

I don't think you mean "require".  I think you mean "speak positively on".
-- 
-Matthew P Wiener (weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: jeybbu@ritvax.isc.rit.edu
Subject: Re: What is Jewish religion? (long...)
Reply-To: jeybbu@ritvax.isc.rit.edu
Organization: Rochester Institute of Technology
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 17:54:41 GMT

I would like to disagree with David Kaufmann that labels are 
meaningless.  

First of all, without labels there would be no way to be sure of
the heksher on what we eat

More to the point, as this conference points out, there are lots of
subgroups within kal Israel.  It is haredi enough to tell the players with a 
program, much less without them.  
We don't need aspersions in the form of labels, however.

O_C_R_R is pretty crude and may say more about where one pays dues than where one practices.

I'd also like to put in a plug for the usefulness of labels even in the
Orthodox spectrum.  MOdern Orthodox is not a label for ritual
improvization as an attitude toward observance, and interaction with 
the world today.  There is not a single halakah on the use of Television
on Thursdays.  Some Orthodox will permit it, others say never.  They are
both justified by reasonable, observant, Shulcan Aruch following
sources. 

The same difference based on label can be found in the smaller world of
Chasidsim.  My experience is that Satmer and Labovich may be equally
observant, but very different in attitude.  The labels help create
informed and aware relationships.  

It may be like the apples we send our family each year for Chanukah.

In Atlanta, GA there are really only two kinds of apples in the stores
at that time of the year - eating and cooking.  The farmer that sends
the apples is in New York state and up here every apple has its own name.
Johnathan,  Spy, MacIntosh, Granny Smith, the whole batch.  If you know 
what the labels mean, you can find the one that you like best and that
will be best for eachtask.  So too with Jewish culture.  Just as each of the 
tribes had its own strengths, our many tribes today have strengths and
occasional failings.  

Lets not turn useful, and honest labels into slurs and slander.

Like it or not,

kal Israel chaverim,  

Juilan Yudelson
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: er@iscp.Bellcore.COM (Elie Rosenfeld)
Subject: Re: Death Penalty & Jewish Law
Reply-To: er@iscp.Bellcore.COM (Elie Rosenfeld)
Organization: Bell Communications Research (Bellcore)
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 92 16:51:02 GMT

In article <1992Jul30.112558.1894@lmpsbbs.comm.mot.com>, markr@mot.com (Mark) writes:
|> In article <1992Jul30.021338.26993@wixer.cactus.org> lazarus@wixer.cactus.org (Michael Lax) writes:
|> >And what about "Thou Shalt Not Kill"?  Last time I checked, _that_ came from
|> >the Bible, too.  And while supporters of the death penalty can play nifty
|> >semantic games which somehow differentiate between the meaning of "kill" and
|> >"execute", both actions are the taking of human life.
|> 
|> It doesn't say anywhere in the bible 'thou shalt not kill'. (nor does it say
|> execute)  What it does say, is, 'thou shalt not murder'.
|> 
|> In the original hebrew, it uses the phrase 'Lo Tirtzach' (murder)
|> and not the phrase 'Lo Taharog' (kill).
|> 
|> You must have last checked a really long time ago to mix the two up.
|> 
|> Mark

Here's a good way to remember the difference: Confusing "Thou shalt not murder"
with "Thou shalt not kill" is like confusing "Thou shalt not steal" with
"Thou shalt not earn money".
-- 
Elie Rosenfeld      |  "Ronald Reagan??  The ACTOR??
Bellcore            |   Then who's *Vice* President - Jerry Lewis?!"
Piscataway, N.J.    |  "Marty, he's in a '46 Ford, we're in a Delorean;
(908) 699-8800      |   he'd rip through us like we were tinfoil!"
From: wfraker@uoft02.utoledo.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Hebrew vocabulary cards and sunday school teaching
Date: 22 Jul 92 10:31:20 EST
Organization: University of Toledo, Computer Services

I visited a family in Pittsburgh quite awhile ago, and while
I was there they showed me a set of Hebrew vocabulary cards. There
was at least 300 in the set. I've looked all over and can only
find the same type of cards for Russian, German, French and Spanish.
Does anyone know where I could get a set in Hebrew?

Also Starting in September I am going to be teaching a sunday school
class for 2nd grades. If anyone else has taught sunday school before
I'd like to know any interesting ways you used to maintain the interest
of the children in the class and any type of resource materials you used
and where to buy them.

Thanks!
Wendy Fraker
wfraker@uoft02.utoledo.edu
From: saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (samuel.saal)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: prices (was Re: What is Jewish religion?)
Date: 29 Jul 92 12:17:59 GMT
Organization: NetNews Readers Anonymous

In article <1992Jul28.175007.20979@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca>
jgoldber@todah.chem.utoronto.ca (Joel Goldberg) writes:

>In article <1992Jul28.123835.26959@tudorct.com> shdan@tudorct.com (Dan
>Shimoff) writes:

>>Has anybody ever been told when arranging for a mohel "Uh.  I'm new to
>>this so you get a special rate."?  Or something similar?. 
>   Yes. A new mohel will often give a cut rate.

I always thought prices were cheap enough: $5/hour ... plus tips.

-- 
Sam Saal      homxb!saal OR saal@homxb.att.com
	Vayiftach HaShem et Peah Ha`Aton
From: mgross@halibut.nosc.mil (Michelle K. Gross)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Death Penalty & Jewish Law
Date: 29 Jul 92 19:38:16 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Naval Ocean Systems Center, San Diego

Last week's Torah portion, Pinchas, which was read at synagogues all
over the world seems to support the death penalty for the described
circumstance.
--Michelle
mgross@nosc.mil
From: rubinoff@linc.cis.upenn.edu (Robert Rubinoff)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: "Bar-Mitzvah" terminology
Date: 31 Jul 92 14:29:03 GMT
Organization: University of Pennsylvania

In article <3982@novavax.UUCP> mitch@novavax.nova.edu (Mitch Silverman) writes:
>[...] I had been bar-mitzvahed by a female rabbi

No you weren't.

A "bar mitzvah" is simply a Jewish male, of sound mind, who is 13 years old or
older.  There is no ceremony or ritual required to become a bar mitzvah; you
simply have to live long enough.

There is a general practice of celebrating the fact that someone has become a
bar mitzvah by giving him an aliyah, usually the maftir aliyah so that the new
bar mitzvah can read the haftarah.  The bar mitzvah may also do other things
such as the actual torah readings and leading some or all of the services.
None of this in any way involves a Rabbi doing anything *to* him.

Presumably what you meant is that a female Rabbi trained and/or supervised you.

I realize that I'm being a bit pedantic, but I always get upset when I hear
people talking about "being bar-mitzvahed" as if the ceremony itself confers
some status.  (Of course, it can have a profound emotional effect, especially
on someone who has an "adult bar-mitzvah ceremony", but that's a different
matter.) 

    Robert
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: bf957@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Barry H. Rodin)
Subject: Re: 5% bugs in ketchup!
Reply-To: bf957@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Barry H. Rodin)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 92 15:06:12 GMT


This seems to have implications for the kashrus of ketchup,
and other vegetable products.

Any comments?

In a previous article, ar467@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Robert C. Jamieson) says:

>Article 811 of alt.ketchup:
>Newsgroups: alt.ketchup
>From: johnm@cajal.uoregon.edu (John Martin)
>Subject: Re: Bugs in ketchup
>Organization: Institute of Neuroscience, University of Oregon
>Date: Thu, 23 Jul 92 07:43:35 GMT
>
>In article <BrssoF.8qs@ecf.toronto.edu>, ricegm@ecf.toronto.edu (George Matthew Rice) writes:
>
>>Well the point is one of my teacher used to work for Heinz and 
>>he said that they were allowed to include up to 5% bug in their
>>ketchup.
>>   It made sense to me. You would use your best to sell as whole tomatoes 
>>then next best would be canned, and the dregs of the crop would
>>be used to make the blood of the Gods.
>
>
>I don't know the exact amount, but yes, this happens in America, too.
>The Food and Drug Administration (anybody else find it interesting that
>they lumped these two together?) has a list of the allowable contamination
>for various foods (write them and they'll give (sell?) it to you).
>
>The amounts are much higher for processed foods such as our beloved
>ketchup.
>
>That's what gives in added nutritional value, though!
>
>

Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: shimoff@umbc4.umbc.edu (Eliot Shimoff)
Subject: Re: O-C-R debate
Organization: University of Maryland Baltimore Campus, Academic Computing Services
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 19:28:01 GMT

In article <1992Jul24.170856.17664@midway.uchicago.edu> rivk@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>> But I would teach my children myself
>>>rather than send them to an Orthodox *anything*; I have about the same
>>>degree of appreciation for and agreement with Orthodox religious the-
>>>ory as I do for Christianity, and I wouldn't let my kids grow up being
>>>trained by either one.


And subsequently clarifies:
>It isn't hatred; it's irritation and disagreement, ...

Well, that's a heck of a strong way to express irritation and disagreement,
but that's USENET in action. :-)



>but my tools for interpreting Torah are Aristotelian syllogism
>and Occam's Razor, and halacha uses neither.

Halakhic Jews use Remington's razor, or perhaps Norelco's, but
never Occam's.  (Sorry, but _someone_ was going to write it. :-)).
Remember, in any event, that Occam's razor whould be used to sharpen
the wit, not whittle away at the imagination.

> I don't accept anyone's
>authority on questions of law, and although I do accept advice to the
>point where my practice is closer to Modern Orthodox than to Reform a
>lotof the time, I will not let anyone try to teach my children that the
>correct way to interpret the text is to let somebody else, whether a
>modern Rabbi or an ancient sage, do it for you.
>

Regardless of one's position in the O-C-R spectrum, isn't this an
interesting rejection of expertise?

I feel that way about art, poetry, and much of the humanities; I
don't know much about X, but I know what I like.  I attribute my
position on these issues to ignorance, and the sense that I don't
think art, poetry, etc. are all that important to me.

Judaism is, however, important to me.  And, I assume, it is important
to you.  Do you reject _all_ expertise (Reform and Conservative as
well as Orthodox)?  I assume that you do not necessarily reject expertise
in other areas of endeavor (e.g., medicine, math); how (and where) do you
draw the distinction?   Doesn't it take a great deal of knowledge
(and hubris) to go off on one's own like that?   (I'm asking, not
attacking.  Honest.  I'd attack you on the Orthodoxy - Christianity
parallel, but not on the rest.)

-- 
Eliot Shimoff                  |    n   n   n
   shimoff@umbc3.umbc.edu      |   X + Y = Z .  Easy to prove no solutions
Ashamnu, bagadnu, gazalnu ...  |   for n greater than 2.  Darn.  Can't fit
Better luck next year!         |   it into this little .sig file.  Oh well.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (samuel.saal)
Subject: Re: Why I gave up on my People (was Re: Another Holocaust)
Organization: NetNews Readers Anonymous
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 14:07:30 GMT

In article <_-jm_ah.madhaus@netcom.com> madhaus@netcom.com (Maddi
Hausmann) writes:

>I hope most of the Jews reading this group are more enlightened
>than David, and that the "Us first, everyone else last or not at all"
>attitude I grew up with is purged from the collective consciousness.

OK!  I'm converted!  Help me to enlightenemnt. Please! I have $100 to
give to charity.  To which 10,000 charities should I give a penny?
Oh?  You mean I still have to decide?  I wonder if giving 2 cents to
one will be more helpful than 1 cent to two.  Or maybe $10 to ten will
be even better.  But now I have to pare down the list even more.

Tell you what.  For now, I'm going to bias my concern (and giving) to
Jewish organizations and efforts until non-Jews give 1/10th to Yeshivot
and other Jewish organizations what I _already_ give to them.
-- 
Sam Saal      homxb!saal OR saal@homxb.att.com
	Vayiftach HaShem et Peah Ha`Aton
From: aaron@kesher.UUCP (Aaron Schmiedel)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: society as the basis for religion (was Re: What is Jewish religion?)
Date: 26 Jul 92 04:56:53 GMT
Organization: KESHERnet International - Dallas, TX

In article <14k4i9INNe65@darkstar.UCSC.EDU> sutin@helios.ucsc.edu (Brian Sutin) writes:
>
>How about Turbo-Orthodox?  Has a nice, modern ring to it, no?


No.. it's passe' these days.  Now it should be HYPER-ORTHODOX.  Or even
HYPER-JEWS.                 

Hmmm... would that make non-observant Jews HYPO-JEWS?




-- 
| Aaron D. Schmiedel            |  All my opinions represent what is right  |
| KESHERnet International       |  and true.  Just ask me....               |
| The Jewish Computer Network   |       <aaron@kesher.lonestar.org>         |
| Voice: (214) 239-1941         | ...uunet!convex!egsner!sdf!kesher!aaron   |
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish