From: cw@orion.uucp (C.W. Chung)
Subject: Re: Insensitive mainland chauvinist view. (Was: Who Cares 150 F-16s.)
Organization: Objectivity Inc.
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 92 02:31:12 GMT

    In article <1992Sep14.163750.2175@news.acns.nwu.edu> usenet@news.acns.nwu.edu (Usenet on news.acns) writes:
    >In article <1992Sep11.210312.2293@ms.uky.edu> gang@ms.uky.edu (Gang Li) writes:
    >> usenet@news.acns.nwu.edu (Usenet on news.acns) writes:
    >> 
    >> >As for the US civil war, if you had let all the black people vote then, I think  
    >> >the majority of the population in the south would have support Lincoln's  
    >> >decision. Do you know the difference? Think about it!
    >> 	Do you know even today, black people is till minority. Do you know
    >> 	how many of them vote today?

    >Well, the percentage of black in southern states were quite large at time of  
    >American Civil War. Even now, the percentage is still large in the south after  
    >many Eurpean immigrants settled in the US after 1990. Just for your  
    >information.

    >I believe all of them would vote at that crucial point which determined their  
    >fate.

    >Carl

Could someone help out in the facts and figures?  

Here is what I have from the world almanac: 

    population of continental USA in 1860
    # of white: 26.9 M
    # of black:  4.4 M

    urban:       6.2M
    rural:      25.3M

    median age of white: 19.7 !  (today is about 34)
		  black: 17.7 !  (today is about 28)

I don't have the breakdown of the population of the 11 states of
Confederates.  My estimate is that it is between 1/3 to 1/2.  Even
at 1/3, that will put the white population of confed. at
about 9 million - more than twice that of blacks.  [It should
be noted that if a voter has to be of 18 or 21 years old,
black would be more disadvantaged at that time as there
is a greater percentage of black below the legal age.

Well, of course, not all white will vote for salvery.  I suppose
there may be some black who may vote for slavery also [who happen
to have say, good masters].  Without an actual election, this
is all hypothetical.

However, it does pose an interesting hypothetical challege to
the theory that it is only those people who live there that
determine their own destiny.  In the case of American civil wars,
the south has declared their independence.  From the way
the war was fought by the South (and from population figures), 
could it be said that the Confederates have the support of the 
majority of their people?  If so, does the Union has the right to
'invade' the south, or should the south has its independence 
respected by the Union?

I don't have an smart answers, and I hope you all see that
the issue of 'self-determination' vs 'the terroritorial integrity
of a nation' is a very complex issue.  A lot of the factors
played an important role in the outcome: cultural, historical,
economic, geopolitical factors.  Many countries, generally regarded
to be democratic, still have to wrestle with the ethnic issues 
(e.g. Quebec in Canada, North Ireland in UK).  Appealing to
any one single principle probably would reduce the matter to
be too simplistic and ignore the complex context of the issue.

-cw-
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china,soc.culture.taiwan,soc.culture.hongkong