From: stucki@retina.cis.ohio-state.edu (David J Stucki)
Subject: Re: pesach and easter (resurrection day)
Originator: stucki@retina.cis.ohio-state.edu
Organization: Ohio State University Computer and Information Science
	<1992Apr9.195129.13635@portland.mdc.unisys.com>
	<STUCKI.92Apr11133800@retina.cis.ohio-state.edu>
	<1992Apr14.140846.23885@portland.mdc.unisys.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1992 03:18:25 GMT

In article <1992Apr14.140846.23885@portland.mdc.unisys.com> tom@portland.mdc.unisys.com (Tom Albrecht) writes:

   In article <STUCKI.92Apr11133800@retina.cis.ohio-state.edu> stucki@retina.cis.ohio-state.edu (David J Stucki) writes:

   >This is absurd. Virtually every aspect of the modern Passover is full of
   >deep symbolisms that point to Jesus as the Messiah. ...

   When you see these "Christ in the Passover" presentations what you are
   looking at is the creative way some folks have interpreted the various
   parts of the rabbinic Passover service and squeezed them into the Christian
   message of salvation through the blood of Messiah.  They have invented
   correlations between the components of the Passover and the life of
   Messiah.  But, again, this is pure speculation and invention.  Except for
   the items specifically identified in the Bible - the bread symbolizing the
   body of our Lord, and the wine symbolizing His blood, and the lamb pointing
   the the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world - the other items
   (eggs, the three matzoh, the "hidden" matzoh, The Elijah chair, etc.) is
   all speculation.

I am not referring to a "Christ in the Passover" presentation! I am referring
to the Passover as it is observed by non-messianic Jewish people. These
correlations are not the product of some strained twisting or reworking
of the traditional service, but are 'hit-you-in-the-face', transparent,
and obvious relationships that any Christian would see if he were to 
observe a traditional (non-messianic) service (not jsut a presentation).

   Now, don't get me wrong, such presentations can be used to bring Jewish
   folks to faith in Messiah, but let's not confuse the issue.  The rabbinic
   tradition of Passover which most folks celebrate today is not entirely
   consistent with the revealed word of God.  In fact, I would go so far as to
   suggest that any Christian who celebrates a rabbinic Passover using
   rabbinic prayers and symbols is being no more faithful to God's revealed
   will that a person who celebrates Easter.  Both are extra-biblical
   ceremonies.

There are many non-biblical elements to the modern service. However, I find
it interesting that these non-biblical elements have relationships to the
christian story that are just as strong as the biblical elements.


   >There is no indication that he CHANGED the Passover
   >service, he merely added some interpretations and explanations.

   I personally don't find any scriptural support for this notion.  I find a
   significant change from the old covenant Passover to the new covenant
   Lord's Supper.  The simple fact that uncircumcised Gentiles were now
   included in the Lord's Supper show one key change from old to new.  Also,
   the change from a yearly feast to a weekly celebration of the resurrection
   is also important.  The fact that we don't use a ritually sacrificed lamb
   anymore, but only celebrate with the bread and wine.  The lamb pointed
   forward to the shed blood of Christ.  Once that blood was shed, the need
   for the bloody lamb symbol gave way to the wine representing His blood.
   There is to be no more shedding of blood under the new covenant.

None of the things you have enumerated were initiated by Jesus. They are
hinted at in later parts of the new testament as elements of the early
church's services. Many of the modern elements of the "Communion" service
in its various forms (depending on denomination) are as extra-biblical
as the things you describe above.

   >   If you want to learn the true meaning of the sacrificial death of
   >   Christ, I would suggest you read some of the early Church fathers
   >   on the subject of the eucharist. They are the ones who taught
   >   us about the true meaning of
   >   all these events on the life of of Messiah.  You should also be apart
   >   of a fellowship which has frequent (weekly!!) communion.
   >
   >If you want to learn the true meaning of the sacrificial death of
   >Christ, I suggest you read the Torah, the Prophets, and the Writings.

   And stay away from the rabbinic traditions.  Jesus promised His Holy Spirit
   to the apostles of His Church, not to the rabbis.  The church fathers
   inherited the teaching of the apostles in regard to the celebration of the
   eucharist.  They are a rich source of understanding about the person and
   work of Jesus Christ in our redemption.

Church history and tradition is no more reliable than rabbinic
traditions. This is indicated by the restriction of the canon to 1st
century writings of a small group of people. I would hesitate to say
that modern celebrations of "Communion" are any more faithful to God's
revealed will than any Christian who celebrates a rabbinic Passover or
a person who celebrates Easter.

dave...

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There is no place in science for ideas,
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and there is no place in semantics for meanings.  -- W.V. Quine
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