From: Tagi@cup.portal.com (Thyagi Morgoth NagaSiva)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: my probs with the FAQ
Date: Thu,  5 Nov 92 14:33:36 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
  <1cpgekINNg15@darkstar.UCSC.EDU> <68716@cup.portal.com>
  <1d6vd9INNcg7@darkstar.UCSC.EDU>

9211.05 e.v.

The troglodyte killer (ttk) writes:

Interesting that you'd contrast Rosicrucianism and 
philosophy..  Rosicrucians have always stood for the development 
of one's own philosophies.


Response:

Many people 'have stood for' such high-minded goals.  I'm sure that
there have been very competent Rosicrucians at some point in history.
I have not, however, met many (any?) who struck me as either intellectually
adept and/or open-minded.  I've not really looked, either, so this may
be my own difficulty.
 

ttk:

I don't even know if AMORC has an "official history" which 
they tell their members.  I was told this by my fiancee's mother, 
who would not lie to me.  Ever.


Response:

There is, of course, a difference between lying and simply being mistaken.
I would not suggest that your fiancee's mother was lying, but she could
be misinformed and/or mistaken.  Certainly my experience leads me
to assume so, until shown otherwise.
 

ttk:

They haven't escaped financial realities..  It costs money to 
run an organization like this, even if their officers don't get a 
penny of it.


Response:

It wasn't the 'financial realities' that I was referring to, but
the seemingly dogmatic material I've seen administered by AMORC
to its recipients.  This is admittedly third-hand, however, as I've
never either been a member or have I seen the actual instruction
materials, only been subject to the rantings of Rosicrucian fanatics.

Not all of them were ignoramuses (mi?) either.  Most, however, were
content to make assessments of the darker sides of subjects such as
'magick' and the like based upon what their 'fraternal brothers and
sisters' told them.  In this you seem quite ready to participate.
 

ttk:

The Rosicrucian Library isn't about Rosicrucian philosophy.  
It's simply where all the literature goes that has been donated to 
the order by well-to-do members (royalty among them) for the past 
300 years or so, and literature donated to the order by affiliated 
bodies and other friendly/related organizations (Martinists, 
Freemasons, et al).


Response:

Ok, but the style of the organization will dictate who will donate
literature to it.  If it is dogmatic, we can expect that the types
of books contributed by people who frequent such an organization will be of
a similar calibre.
 

ttk:

As I said, my fiancee is an ex-coloumb of the order and has 
told me much.  Although I can't repeat any of it here.  


Response:

Care to explain what an 'ex-coloumb' is?  I'm interested.
 

ttk:
     
Really?  I wasn't trying to be logical, and I wasn't trying 
to apply anything taught to me from AMORC or anyone else.  As in 
my other replies, I am saying what I feel, how I am motivated, and 
the first-order causes of these feelings and motivations.


Response:

My comment was sarcastic.  I haven't seen much logic in Rosicrucian
expression.  You struck me as fitting quite well into the throngs of
people who seem to find their dogma meaningful.

I'll note that I feel hurt by dogmatists and that I sometimes express
this hurt via computer by bashing organizations and those who either
associate themselves with them or represent them directly.  My comment
about you was somewhat out of line but did indeed express my bias
against AMORC regarding its dogmatism.
 
     
ttk:

I do feel uncomfortable having the order bashed on the basis 
of the actions of one person (me) who hasn't even been taught much 
by that order..  I have been influenced by people who are involved 
with AMORC, and when advice is given to me from an AMORC 
ex-lodgemaster I'm inclined to follow it, but the implications 
that 1) AMORC is responsible for my behaviour, and 2) AMORC is 
some sort of sleazy dogmatic money-making scheme hardly do the 
organization justice.


Response:

You are but a straw which has unleashed quite a strong feeling of
resentment about/toward AMORC and all it represents to those of my
ilk.  You seem to be quite capable of separating yourself from
these feelings, and so need not take much of this personally.

My reactions are not solely based upon my interactions with you.  They've
been a long time building and are associated with ALL organized religions.
Those who follow the will of others (ex-lodgemaster or no) are doomed
to slavery and the hell that this entails, AMORC or no AMORC.

1) I never assumed that AMORC was responsible for your behavior, but
I did note that your behavior was very representative of those who
I've met in the past that associated themselves with AMORC.

2) AMORC may not be sleazy, but in my view (until shown otherwise, and
I'm happy to listen/spend time with local people who'll show me) it IS
a dogmatic organization whose sole purpose is indoctrinalization,
socialization and the making of long-term bucks.  Please, I invite anyone
to show me evidence to the contrary.
     

ttk:

I understand that these implications are made by people to 
whom undermining my statements by any means possible is more 
important than speaking truth, but I'm disturbed by the 
possibility of these statements biasing someone who'd never heard 
of AMORC before this thread started up.   


Response:

I don't think this comment is fair (yet understand why it may have been
made).  In the least, I am speaking my truth.  I claim no truth beyond
my experiences and these are at variance with your words.  I welcome
your difference of opinion, hope to find out MORE about AMORC and similar
organizations through this exchange and others (as I said, I have a few
friends who are involved very heavily with it) and would appreciate
some sort of argument which contradicts my experiences thusfar.

I hope that this thread and these comments DO bias someone who reads them.
I hope that they bias someone to look VERY carefully at ALL social
organizations with which one becomes associated.  I hope that they bias
someone to criticize EVERY aspect of organized religion for what it is,
question the authority of all members of religious organizations, and
look very skeptically at ALL claims of wisdom, truth and knowledge.  

I've found that most individuals and organizations which intend to
represent such authorities are extremely lacking in either humility
or openness and hope that this will change at some point (or that I
begin to find more who have these qualities, if nothing else).

 
ttk:

Maybe when the dust has settled people'll be sufficiently sick of 
flaming that they'll get some good done instead.  In the meantime, 
though, I do have my classes and I might not be able to post as 
often as I like.


Response:

I think that what qualifies as a 'flame' may not be what we've had 
much of thusfar.  I haven't noticed TOO many comments regarding your
intelligence, your mother, your racial heritage or your private
parts. :>  What Josh and many others have said so far has seemed
to fall into the category of either 'relevant feelings' or 'acidic
questions' (exhibiting the deep feelings which some have regarding
AMORC and organizations like it).  
     

ttk:

[...for the most part you've put your]
finger on the pressure points of this issue (if something as 
nebulous as this thread can be considered an issue) and applied 
enough pressure to make people notice.


Response:

Thanks, I think.  By the way, I saw your post in another newsgroup
which explained your name (the troglodyte killer) and liked it very
much.  If you'd care to email an explanation of that code you use
in your sig, I'd appreciate it, though I'm told that it is somewhat
controversial.  Interesting at least.  

Silence = Death indeed.  :>

Isn't one of the vows of the Sphinx, according to Western Mystery
traditions 'Silence'??  How would this apply?


Thyagi
======================================================

 
"The Lord is my shepherd, I shall not want
He makes me down to lie.
Through pastures green he leadeth me the silent waters by.
With bright knives he releaseth my soul.
He maketh me to hang on hooks in high places.
He converteth me to lamb cutlets,
For lo, he hath great power, and great hunger.
When cometh the day we lowly ones,
Through quiet reflection, and great dedication,
Master the art of karate.
Lo, we shall rise up,
And then we'll make the bugger's eyes water."

Roger Waters (Pink Floyd), Animals: Sheep, 1977.
Newsgroups: alt.magick