HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: romeo@niagara.Tymnet.COM (Michael Stimac)
Newsgroups: rec.railroad
Subject: Re: Condensors and turbines (Was: Re: compound locos (was Re: High Speed Rail Query))
Date: 11 Nov 92 17:52:17 GMT
Organization: BT North America (Tymnet)

In article <urf.721208138@sw2001> urf@icl.se (Urban F) writes:
>smb@ulysses.att.com (Steven Bellovin) writes:
>
>>Has anyone ever tried building a locomotive that tried to recondense
>>water from the steam?  It would seem that a closed cycle would be
>
>Certainly. There must be lots of examples I don't know about, but
>the one I think of now is the North American class of turbines. It
>was not successful, due to the complexity of the condensor system.
>

What do you mean by "the North American class of turbines"?

The Pennsylvania Railroad as well as the Chesapeake and Ohio
Railroad had steam turbine locomotives. Pennsy had a single
example, and I believe C&O had one or two examples. The
Pennsy and C&O engines were very different, the Pennsy being
direct (gear) drive and the C&O being turbine/electric.

In no sense did these locos comprise a "class", that term
being restricted in railroad parlance to groups of similar
engines on a given railroad.

In any case, the Pennsy turbine, class S-2, did not have a
condenser. Exhaust steam was vented to the atmosphere.

The Pennsy S-2 was not successful, however the reason had
nothing to do with "the complexity of the condensor (sic) system".
Rather the difficulty was that the turbine required too much
maintenance working in the 'dirty' environment of the coal
dust, ashes, roadway dirt, etc. The engine otherwise met
its ambitious design goals in terms of performance, efficiency
of fuel use, etc.

I have no information regarding the success/failure of the
C&O turbine(s), perhaps this is the loco which failed due
to the condenser.

Michael Stimac
-- 
Michael Stimac
(415) 355-8889
romeo@tymnet.com
These opinions are not necessarily anyone's but my own.
From: sfsmith@pennsas.upenn.edu (Sandy F. Smith, Jr.)
Newsgroups: rec.railroad
Subject: Re: Amtrak's future under a Clinton administration
Date: 5 Nov 92 22:49:19 GMT
Organization: University of Pennsylvania

OK, here's two cents more on the subject.

On gas taxes:  Yes, he promised not to raise them during the campaign, but
I suspect that this is a promise he will have little difficulty breaking --
after all, Paul Tsongas (in the Democratic primaries) and Ross Perot (in the
general election campaign) have already softened the ground for this idea,
and besides, most of the electorate is convinced their taxes are going to go
up anyway (*including* a sizable fraction of those who voted for Bush).  Sold
as part of an "investment" strategy, it should be relatively easy for Clinton
to sell a gas tax hike with a portion dedicated for non-highway surface
transportation.

High-speed rail: I suspect Bruce Nordman is on target about where the first
high-speed line in the US *will* be built, for the reasons he cites, but
perhaps it *ought* to be built along the Philadelphia<->Chicago axis; three
of the four states through which this line would pass have already funded
studies of high-speed rail networks built *without* Federal participation,
and could probably dust off their plans quite quickly if money from Washington
were to become available.  Expect the electrification of the New Haven-Boston
portion of the NEC to be completed sooner, as well.

Local transport:  Dare we hope for a *serious* revival of Federally-assisted
rail projects in cities?  I for one am willing to hold my breath waiting for
this to come to pass; we can probably also look forward to increased funds
for rebuilding existing networks.  I'm sure several people at 714 Market
Street are already beginning to hyperventilate.  On the other hand, we most
likely will not see a return to the days of Federal *operating* subsidies
for metropolitan transport -- at least not in the first Clinton term.

I received some e-mail from a fellow rec.railroader noting that Amtrak can
probably pull out its "wish list" now that an Arkansas Traveler is on his
way to Washington.  Not having followed Amtrak closely of late, I'd be curious
to hear what goodies they'd like to have.

__________________________________________________________________________
Sandy F. Smith, Jr. _____________>>New address: sfsmith@mail.sas.upenn.edu
Graduate Division, School of Arts and Sciences, University of Pennsylvania
16 College Hall, Philadelphia, PA 19104-6378.  (Opinions mine, not Penn's)
 
Time for Bill Clinton to get off the bus and hop on board the train!
Newsgroups: rec.railroad
From: Prime Mover Software Development <U93_PTUPACZE@VAXC.STEVENS-TECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Railway Age?
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
Organization: Indiana University
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 22:22:39 GMT
X-Vms-To: IN%"rec.railroad@silver.ucs.indiana.edu"

In response to Ernest Robl's post:

The associate editor of Railway Age, Bill Vantuono, is a good friend of mine. 
I posed the question of copyright infringement to him, and he told me that 
Simmons-Boardman's copyright lasts only 31 years. Therefore, all Railway Age 
magazines prior to 1961 are public domain (however, the reprinter can 
copyright the reprints). So legally, it all checks out.

I think my friend will probably be doing the reprints. I'll let everyone know 
as to how much he'll ask for them. They will be COMPLETE magazines (not 
selected articles).

    - Paul Tupaczewski
      Stevens Tech
      Hoboken, NJ
      u93_ptupacze@vaxa.stevens-tech.edu

Newsgroups: rec.railroad
From: CZ94 <CZ94@MUSICA.MCGILL.CA>
Subject: D&H (was Re: Amtrak's future under a Clinton ...)
Organization: McGill University
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 15:36:50 GMT

In article <m9k1_=b@rpi.edu> kasprj@isaac.its.rpi.edu (Jim Kasprzak) writes:
>
> * Upgrading of the old D&H line from Albany to Montreal. Who owns it now?

Canadian Pacific.

>Could Amtrak acquire it?                                                the

I doubt it very much.  I've heard that CP sees a lot of potential
for increasing cross-border freight traffic on this line, particularly
container traffic between U.S. ports and Canadian destinations.

>The Adirondack between Albany and Montreal has
>worst on-time record of any train in the Northeast. Something should be
>done about it. A high-speed corridor from Montreal to NYC would be my
>ultimate pipe-dream goal here, but that'd take lots of work.

I've heard that while the D&H does a very poor job for Amtrak, the
Soo Line, also owned by CP, has one of the best on-time records of
Amtrak contracting railroads.

Tom Box
CZ94@MUSICA.MCGILL.CA

Newsgroups: rec.railroad
From: msb@sq.sq.com (Mark Brader)
Subject: Condensing locos (was: compound locos (was Re: High...))
Organization: SoftQuad Inc., Toronto, Canada
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 92 10:04:34 GMT

[Please change the Subject when you change the subject!]

> > Has anyone ever tried building a locomotive that tried to recondense
> > water from the steam?
> 
> Yes.  This was a particularly good idea in arid regions like South Africa,
> where such locos came into common use.

And on the London Underground.  Or more precisely, on its predecessors
the Metropolitan Railway and the Metropolitan District Railway.  These
railways used condensing steam locomotives from their inception in 1863
and 1868 respectively, until their electrification in 1905.
 
> The problem is that the surface area of the heat exchanger needed for
> the condenser is huge!  You end up having to build a huge tender with
> sides made of lattices of condenser tubes.

The Metropolitan and District condensing engines didn't even have
tenders; they were tank engines.  (Most if not all of them were 4-4-0T's.
You can see an example at the London Transport Museum, and many books
on railway history which include the Underground in their scope have
a picture of them.)  The exhaust steam was simply led back into the
water tanks to condense there -- as long as the water was cold, there
was apparently enough suction.

These engines could also release steam in two ways: in the usual way
from the chimney, which was done whenever the train was not in a tunnel,
and also from the water tanks, which was done if they got too hot.
The big difference from the South African operation is that in London
the hot water from the tanks was discarded at the end of each trip, and
fresh cold water put in!

At least one other British underground railway used condensing engines.
This was the Mersey Railway, now part of BR, from Liverpool to Birkenhead.
Their engines were 0-6-2T's (or at least one of them was), with the
same general arrangement as the Metropolitan ones as regards the steam.

The *original* plan for working the Metropolitan Railway, by the way,
was a locomotive whose fire would burn only when it was not in a tunnel.
The idea was that it would then heat up a brick firebox lining which
would keep the water boiling all the time.  It was thermodynamically
absurd; the prototype built in 1861 (nicknamed "Fowler's ghost" after
the designer) was declared a failure after only a few tests.
-- 
Mark Brader, Toronto	"Those who mourn for 'USENET like it was' should
utzoo!sq!msb		 remember the original design estimates of maximum
msb@sq.com 		 traffic volume: 2 articles/day" -- Steven Bellovin

This article is in the public domain.
Newsgroups: rec.railroad
From: msb@sq.sq.com (Mark Brader)
Subject: Re: European trains
Organization: SoftQuad Inc., Toronto, Canada
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 92 08:54:08 GMT

> One of the things I try to tell people in the U.S. about European
> trains is that there are basically two different types of trains
> in Europe, with only minor overlap between the two:  Fast trains
> that efficiently connect the major cities and slower trains that go
> through great scenery. ...
> On my trips to Europe, I always try to divide my time between the 
> two types of trains.  I admire the fast trains for their technology,
> but I like the slower trains for their scenery and the small towns
> they take me to and through. ...

Yes, I agree exactly with this.

> A Eurail pass is equally valid on both kinds of trains.

But this is not exactly right.  In Switzerland, there are many routes
of the "slow, scenic" type where Eurailpasses are not accepted.  And
in Spain, conversely, Eurailpasses are not accepted on the newest
and fastest train they have: the AVE.

(I will say that these are the only two significant exceptions I know of,
within the countries that accept Eurailpasses at all.)
-- 
Mark Brader, SoftQuad Inc., Toronto  |	Rocket, 1829: The first 30 mph train.
utzoo!sq!msb, msb@sq.com	     |	TGV-A, 1989: The first 300 mph train.

This article is in the public domain.
Newsgroups: rec.railroad
From: strike@steam.rome.ny.us (Strikemaster)
Subject: Re: compound locos (was Re: High Speed Rail Query)
X-bbs-room: Network Rail Forum (room #104)
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1992 08:55:00 EST

smb@ulysses.att.com (Steven Bellovin) writes:

>Has anyone ever tried building a locomotive that tried to recondense
>water from the steam?  It would seem that a closed cycle would be
>of great interest, given how quickly steam engines need to refill
>their water tanks.

South African National Railways operated condensing locomotives for years.
I'd give you references from TRAINS magazine for the articles on one called
the "Red Devil", but they're still in shipping containers from the move.
From: pierson@cimcad.enet.dec.com (Dave Pierson)
Newsgroups: rec.railroad
Subject: Re: Why do New England Express trains slow down...
Date: 13 Nov 92 15:02:05 GMT
Article-I.D.: engage.1992Nov13.150739.11687
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation

In article <1992Nov11.212235.22444@icaen.uiowa.edu>,
saevans@l_cae06.icaen.uiowa.edu (Scott A Evans,,,) writes, in part:

>From article <lg2sgqINNhg9@news.bbn.com>, by rnewman@bbn.com (Ron Newman):
>> ....when passing through certain stations that they do
>> not stop at, such as Stamford and Bridgeport, Connecticut?

>Some towns have laws prohibiting trains from going through their 
>borders at above a certain speed.

	In this instance, all the trackage is elevated & grade separated.  (Thru
	those cities.  Grade separated elsewhere.  I suspect in this case it is
	a matter of not blowing unsuspecting Metro North customers off the
	platforms.  As others have noted, this is a twisty bit of railroad, not
	really suited to high speed operation, especially in certain area.

thanks
dave pierson			|the facts, as accurately as i can manage,
Digital Equipment Corporation	|the opinions, my own.
40 Old Bolton Road		|I am the NRA.
Stow, Mass		01775	pierson@msd26.enet.dec.com
"He has read everything, and, to his credit, written nothing."  A J Raffles
From: bob@1776.COM (Robert Coe)
Newsgroups: rec.railroad
Subject: Re: Why do New England Express trains slow down...
Date: 12 Nov 92 04:44:48 GMT
Distribution: ne
Organization: 1776 Enterprises, Sudbury MA

rnewman@bbn.com (Ron Newman) writes:
> ...when passing through certain stations that they do
> not stop at, such as Stamford and Bridgeport, Connecticut?
> 
> Seems like they could gain 10 minutes or more on their
> schedules if they zoomed through these stations at full speed
> instead of crawling through them at what seemed like 20 mph.

The last time I was on the NEC, they were doing some bridge work, and two of
the tracks were closed.  So on some of the stations between NY and NH there
were no express tracks.  That might account for a slow order through Stam-
ford.

At Bridgeport there's a very bad curve.  When I was in college in the late
50s, the night train from Washington hit it too fast and rolled down the em-
bankment.

   ___            _                                           -  Bob
   /__) _   /    / ) _   _
(_/__) (_)_(_)  (___(_)_(/_______________________________________ bob@1776.COM
Robert K. Coe ** 14 Churchill St, Sudbury, Massachusetts 01776 ** 508-443-3265
Newsgroups: rec.railroad
From: lip@s1.gov (Loren I. Petrich)
Subject: Re: SNCF in UK
Organization: LLNL
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 20:12:31 GMT

In article <1992Nov6.174914.8338@bcrka451.bnr.ca> dewi@bnr.ca (Dewi Williams) writes:

>Can anybody comment on the rumour that SNCF (French National Rlys)
>are proposing to purchase the London-Edinburgh line when the latter
>gets privatized?

	I haven't heard of _that_ one, but that would be politically
embarrassing, something like the Japanese acquisition of some major
American company.

	But on the plus side, mayby they'll run TGV's.

Newsgroups: rec.railroad
Newsgroups: rec.railroad
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 11:14:17 -0500 
From: Jason Paul Togyer <jt3y+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Hopping trains for a ride
	<1dq993INNhdd@master.cs.rose-hulman.edu>

Just a brief comment:

I used to hang out at MK Tower on CSX's Western Subdivision in
McKeesport, Pa.  During my junior year of high school, we had one day in
January where we got two feet of snow, and school was cancelled.  I woke
up that morning with the intention of going down to MK, but the roads
were so bad I changed my mind.

In that evening's paper, I found out that a number of kids (who, of
course, were also out of school for the day) had tried to jump onto a
tri-level auto rack.  The last one to try to climb on slipped and fell
under the wheels of the train.  Of course, the crew didn't know and
continued on their way and the op didn't know because he was inside the
tower by then OS'ing the train.

The girl laid there until her "friends" were able to jump off the train
and go home to call the police.  She ended up losing the lower halves of
her legs.  She's damn lucky she didn't lose her life.  I understand that
she had to go through quite a bit of counseling.

On a lighter note:

I have a friend from Virginia who grew up along the NS (old Interstate
Railroad).  His father still works for the railroad, and he says that
they get a lot of hoboes riding their coal trains--only they're
immigrants!

In one case he particularly remembered, he watched a coal drag pass with
a young Asian man and his bicycle riding on the back of a hopper.  As
the hopper passed my friend's father, the man smiled and waved at him. 
He waved back, and then called the railroad police to have the man put
off at the next town.

Later that day, another coal train passed my friend's dad going in the
other direction, and on one of the cars was the same guy, smiling and
waving.  For that gentleman's sake I hope he got where he wanted to go
before the railroad police caught up with him.
  
--Jason Togyer
     Carnegie Institute of Technology
     Pittsburgh, Penn.

**"The moral of the story is: don't count your boobies before they've hatched."
       --James Thurber
            'THE UNICORN IN THE GARDEN'
Newsgroups: rec.railroad
Subject: Re: U.S. railroad maps
From: bob@1776.COM (Robert Coe)
Date: Thu, 05 Nov 92 08:05:05 EST
Distribution: na
Organization: 1776 Enterprises, Sudbury MA

pierson@cimcad.enet.dec.com (Dave Pierson) writes:
> Personally, I have found the Rand McNally maps to sketchy for detailed use, 
> if there is much trackage in the area (I am thinking of trying to find Rot-
> terdam Junction, NY, the rail junction, as opposed to the town/village.  We
> never were sure we did find it...).

New England and upstate New York (and, I suppose, other areas as well) are
covered by books of township maps that show detail down to the level of 
street names.  These maps do show railroads, often including even lines that 
have been out of service for many years.  The lines are not always labelled 
correctly, but in most cases it's not too hard to figure out what they really
are.  Around here, the map books are available in most bookstores.

   ___            _                                           -  Bob
   /__) _   /    / ) _   _
(_/__) (_)_(_)  (___(_)_(/_______________________________________ bob@1776.COM
Robert K. Coe ** 14 Churchill St, Sudbury, Massachusetts 01776 ** 508-443-3265
Newsgroups: rec.railroad
From: pierson@cimcad.enet.dec.com (Dave Pierson)
Subject: Re: Misspelling of "Amtrak" (was Re: Metroliners)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 13:21:43 GMT

In article <jwj2.16.720839532@po.CWRU.Edu>, jwj2@po.CWRU.Edu (Jermaster)
writes..

>In article <122200174@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM> wbrill@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Warren Brill)
writes:
>>This could get re-e-e-a-a-a-l-l-ly ugly:

>>            And if Amtrak starts selling souvenir backpacks,
>>            would they be Ampacks or...
>>            And would your Amsna(c)k be in an Amsack or...
>>            If the caboose came back, would it be an Amhack or...
>>            Do you put your baggage on an Amrack or...
>Or if Amtrak started playing heavy metal on its trains, would it be called
>Amthrax?

	Uhuh.  Some years ago i was exploring Cleveland, Ohio, AMTRAK station.
	I realized the green things around it must be AMbushes.  Have you
	noticed how many railfans are AMbivalent about the AMbling speeds
	AMTRAK achieves?
	8)>>
thanks
dave pierson
Maynard, Mass		01754	pierson@msd27.enet.dec.com
"He has read everything, and, to his credit, written nothing."  A J Raffles
Newsgroups: rec.railroad
From: crh@wam.umd.edu (Craig Hinners)
Subject: Re: NEC ramblings
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1992 16:01:21 GMT

In article <61814@mimsy.umd.edu> mangoe@cs.umd.edu (Charley Wingate) writes:
>Dave Pierson writes:
>
>>Caught MARC local to Gaithersburg, odd to find myself on a powered Budd RDC
>>set.
>
>They just keep on going; a couple years back, MARC got some "fresh" ones
>from NJT.  If you are lucky, 8913 will show up, still in B&O paint.
>

The RDC's are used on the Brunswick line to do the "against the flow" runs.
MARC has one outbound train in the morning and one inbound train in the
afternoon which carry at the most 30 or so people.  These are the trains
covered by the RDC's (with a few exceptions).  They usually use three
cars but I think they could probably handle the load with one!

Incidentally, late this past summer in July or Aug. (can't remember which),
the afternoon inbound RDC set had a fire in one of the cars at the Rockville
(two before Gaithersburg) station.  I just happened to have my scanner with
me and was only a few blocks away so I happened by.  Seems some oil leaked
into some part of the a.c. system where it shouldn't have been and ignited
some insulation.  Only 20 or so people on at the time and they all evacuated
safely.  Not much damage, but it created a lot of smoke and charred up the
car some.  About a week afterwards, some politicians started freaking  
because some insulation from the car was found to have contained asbestos.
People started jumping to conclusions about lung cancer, the passengers 
were going to get sick, etc. etc.  Can't remember what became of it, altho 
it was a classic case of over-reaction.....

Sorry, can't remember the # of the unlucky RDC...

Craig Hinners
crh@wam.umd.edu
From: dtm@castle.ed.ac.uk (D Muxworthy)
Newsgroups: rec.railroad
Subject: Re: SNCF in UK
Date: 9 Nov 92 13:00:11 GMT
Organization: Edinburgh University

In article <1992Nov6.174914.8338@bcrka451.bnr.ca> dewi@bnr.ca (Dewi Williams)
writes:
>
>Can anybody comment on the rumour that SNCF (French National Rlys)
>are proposing to purchase the London-Edinburgh line when the latter
>gets privatized?

It cannot be literally true.  The UK Government's proposals, which in any case
are likely to be thoroughly mangled by the House of Commons before they are
finalized, for a national authority to maintain the tracks and for companies
to bid to provide services. 

Since the fees the track authority will require are far from being known, the
most any potential service provider can do at present is to commission a
tentative feasilbility study.  There have been rumours that SNCF were
interested but I understand that they have been denied.  At one time the
Virgin group were said to be interested in leasing or buying three IC-125s to
run a London-Edinburgh service but this has come to nought, as has an actual
privatized London-Edinburgh-Aberdeen service whereby a bus company rented two
seating coaches (painted in the bus compnay colours) attached to the back of a
BR sleeper service and sold tickets, provided stewards and services etc
separately from BR; patronage has been minimal. 
David Muxworthy