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Date:         Mon, 28 Sep 1992 12:26:00 EST
From:         "DRCV06::GRAHAM" <GRAHAM%DRCV06.decnet@DRCVAX.AF.MIL>
Subject:      Perfected forever without purgatory.

Hebrews 10:14 says that Jesus is perfecting or has perfected forever, those
who are being sanctified.  So, while we may be in a process here in our
m mortal lives, in the eyes of God, we are already and forever perfect.  No
pennance, no purgatory, no works of any kind can alter that.

Any act, no matter how small, no matter by whom, other than the atoning
shedding of the blood of God's Son can contribute in getting us one
angstron closet to the throne.  This also applies in regard to prayer for
the dead.  Pray all you want, it may do you good, but, the final
destination of the elect was written in the Book of Life before the earth
was created, Revelation 17:8.  The destination of the rest, well, what can
I say.  Theirs is fixed, too.  The parable of the rich man and Lazarus
shows that there is no mercy to those in hell.

At the end of Romans right, Paul says that he is convinced that nothing,
life, death, whatever, can separate him from the love of God.  This
assurance is possible for every Christian.  No child of God need fear
purgatory, hell or even the slightest whisp of a chance he could lose his
salvation.

Dan Graham
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Date:         Tue, 6 Oct 1992 14:37:46 CDT
Reply-To:     bradk%isdgsm@rtsg.mot.com
From:         "(Brad Kaiser)" <bradk%isdgsm@RTSG.MOT.COM>
Subject: Re: Security of salvation?

Jesse Carnes writes:

>> "Exegetically" irritated to the point of distraction ;

Jesse, at the risk of irritating you even more, I would like to hear
your *detailed* exegesis of Lk 12:41-48 and Heb 10:26-31.  Note: not
just a one or two sentence dismissal, but a detailed discussion.  If
you don't have time now, don't worry about it.

(Disclaimer: these are only the passages I have available right now.
Nothing in this email should be construed as any committment on my
part not to challenge Jesse with other, similar passages in the
future, when I get around to finding them!)

In Christ's Peace,

Brad Kaiser
(bradk%isdgsm@rtsg.mot.com)

	  Those who trust in Him shall understand truth,
	  and the faithful shall abide with Him in love;
	  Because grace and mercy are with His holy ones,
	  and His care is with His elect.
		    -- Wis 3:9 [NAB]
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Date:         Thu, 1 Oct 1992 07:55:13 EDT
From:         Bernice Tennant <U1A9A@WVNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Dead men choosing.
              GRAHAM%DRCV06.decnet@DRCVAX.AF.MIL

Good morning Dan.  You might be blind, but sometimes you sure can see.

Love you brother in Christ, Bernice
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Date:         Thu, 1 Oct 1992 07:04:50 CDT
From:         Jesse <NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Bill C. where are you??

Dear Bill ;

I wanted to write you by E-mail but as I am on Bitnet and not Internet,
I do not know what your address is.
Please write me with your E-mail address included so that I can speak to you
about my motives with the questionaire.



Jesse
From: GRAHAM%DRCV06.decnet@DRCVAX.AF.MIL (DRCV06::GRAHAM)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Vote, what vote?
Date: 28 Sep 92 16:23:00 GMT
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After reading the initial few posts on the idea of a two or multi tiered
list, I lost interest because I like the list as it is.  Now, I see a post
mentioning vooting on various options.  Did I miss something crucial in the
interim?  Is there an official vote on this subject, or is it something
informal?

If it is formal, and Steven or Madge are counting, then I think I need to
be informed, and gently whipped, maybe, for ignoring the posts.

Tell you what, if I blew it, just send the wet noodles through the mail and
I'll hit myself with them.

Dan Graham
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From: pmoloney@maths.tcd.ie (Paul Moloney)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: IS GOD EVIL?
Date: 30 Sep 92 10:26:04 GMT
Organization: Somewhere in the Twentieth Century

bradk%isdgsm@RTSG.MOT.COM ((Brad Kaiser)) writes:

>Something else to consider: the English language has changed greatly
>since the time of the KJV.  In reading it, or Shakespeare (for example),
>it's important to remember that back then, ordinary English men and
>women really spoke like that in everyday life.

>Today, we hear "repent" and think of "repenting from sin".  Back then,
>it's not at all clear that the word necessarily had that connotation;
>it may well have meant just "to change one's mind".

This still suggests that God is an imperfect being. After all, surely
he should have known the correct course of action to take the first time?

P.
-- 
moorcockheathersiainbankshamandcornpizzapjorourkebluesbrothersspikeleepratchett
clive  P a u l   M o l o n e y    "I'm pretty witty and you're itty bitty    pe
james  Trinity College, Dublin     And isn't it a pity the city can't see?   vr
brownbladerunnerorsonscottcardprincewatchmenkatebushbatmanthekillingjoketolkien
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Date:         Tue, 6 Oct 1992 10:05:24 EDT
From:         Bernice Tennant <U1A9A@WVNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Can of worms

Pride goeth before a fall.
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Date:         Mon, 28 Sep 1992 14:20:00 EST
From:         "DRCV06::GRAHAM" <GRAHAM%DRCV06.decnet@DRCVAX.AF.MIL>
Subject:      Dead men choosing.

To carry Jesse's thought a little further, (no, we haven't collaborated),
you might read Phil. 1:29 and 1 Cor 4:7.  In the former, Paul says that
both belief and suffering are gifts.  Apparently, suffering for the name of
Jesus is a gift, may we be so blessed. (I mean it.)

In the second text, Paul is addressing the issue of boasting in spiritual
things.  He declares that they have nothing (spiritually) that they did not
receive.  This must include their belief, and, for that matter, their
ability to believe.

I provide a down to earth example.  I am blind.  In front of me is a
terminal screen with (I think) green dots dancing around on it.  Try as I
may, there is no amount of willing that will cause me to see that screen.
I can will it all I want, no good at all.  My will, while still
functioning, is useless in this matter.  The issue with the word and works
of God is even worse, not only can we not see Him and the Kingdom, we are
hostile to it.  It is as though I hated my terminal and didn't even want to
see it, though seeing it might provide great benefit.  In my blindness, I
cannot even see the benefit that might be derived by seeing the terminal.

Likewise, in Ephesians two, Paul tell us that we were dead, read without
life, in our trespasses and sins.  My eyes are dead.  You can shine all the
light into them you want, and they will not work.  The same for one who is
spiritually dead.  He or she cannot, by any act of the will, open their
spiritual eyes, only God can do that. You can shine all the Bible and
prayer and doctrine you want into them, but until and if God chooses to
open their eyes, they are as blind as I.

When Jesus said that the dead should bury their dead, he was referring to
the spiritually dead burying the physically dead.  His concern was not with
the spiritually dead.  Elisha's servant saw the situation at Dothan with
the natural eyes.  He was afraid that they would be killed.  Elisha prayed
that his servant's eyes should be opened, and they were, revealing the
hosts of heaven on the surrounding hillsides.

My friends, you can fight this all you want, but the bottom line will
always be that man's natural state is blindness to the things of God.  To
tuen a phrase:  Unless God open the eyes, they labor in vain who prop up
the eyelids with sticks.

With love to all,
Dan Graham
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Date:         Mon, 28 Sep 1992 14:22:40 EDT
From:         MKLINE%VDH.BITNET@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU
Subject:      Re: heaven

Subject: Re: heaven

Does God just wave a magic wand and make us pure?  If so, why do we
still have an attachment to sin?  Is sanctification not a process, and a
difficult one at that? When you ask for forgiveness, do you instantly
receive freedom from a desire to sin?  Do you not rebel against God at
times?  Do you have a perfect hatred for sin and a perfect love for God?
 If not, then you are not pure.  God cleanses us and purifies us, but
the promise makes no mention of when or how.  Certainly we are cleansed
in a juridical sense; we no longer are condemned.  But the effects and
symptoms of sin remain.  The war is one, but the battle is not yet over.
 Again I would quote 1 Cor 3:12.  All of our works will be subject to
fire; the wood, hay, and straw will be burnt up, but the gold and
precious stones will remain.  This is purification, and it isn't God
waving his hand over us and making the wood, hay, and straw instantly
disappear.

MAKS> The 1 Cor 3:12 judgement is for what we did on earth, and is as
      instant as any judgement. This isn't a baking process...

      WHY did you witness to your neighbor? Because you wanted her
      saved? Because you knew Jesus wanted her in heaven? Then this
      "work" is one of gold or silver and will stand.

      If you witnessed to her so she would think you were a nice
      person or perhaps a better deal on your rent or something
      like that? Then even if she did accept Jesus, which is good,
      that "work" was one of hay, wood, or straw and it will be
      burnt away.

      The tragedy is if you spend your life doing everything just
      for yourself, or because your church says so, or because
      if makes you feel good and not because of your love for
      Jesus Christ. You could end up standing naked before Christ
      with nothing to offer. You're saved sure, or you wouldn't
      be there, but you are naked with nothing to give to the
      One who saved you and gave His life for you.

      The gold and precious gems are your crown for a job well
      done which we will take off and lay at his feet declaring
      Him to be the only one worthy. Gives me goose pimples
      thinking about it.

      Glory to the Lamb of God! Who is, Who was, and is to come!
      King of Kings! And Lord of Lords! Only You are worthy!
      Praise Your Holy Name! Hosanna to God!

      Whoops. Got carried away... :-)
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Original_To:  CHRISTIA
Original_cc:  HUTTER
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Tue, 6 Oct 1992 09:42:00 N
From:         Wolfgang Hutter <HUTTER@DULRUU51.BITNET>
Subject:      Sue Kay (was male/female/God)

In a message of Tue, 6 Oct 1992 08:19:48 SAT
Received on Tue,  6 Oct 92 08:45 N
zane of dhahran <FACN34B@SAUPM00.BITNET> wrote:

> You ask about Sue Kay.  It is a pun on the Greek word for "soul."

This pun won't work if you pronounced "psyche" the right way. The
Ypsilon is pronounced like a German "ue" umlaut. And the Chi like a
German "ch". - Ah yes, and don't leave out the "p" at the beginning...
;-D

Sorry, but I just had to show you that German is indeed worth learning!

Wolfgang <><
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Date:         Fri, 2 Oct 1992 13:22:01 -0500
From:         Tim Rolfe <rolfe@DSUVAX.DSU.EDU>
Subject:      Romans 14:1 to 15:13

Considering the tone of some of the postings here, might I suggest
reflection on ANOTHER part of Paul's letter to the Romans, 14:1 through
15:13 --- a section that seems to have appreciably fewer advocates than
the earlier chapters.

Remember that dietary issues in the first century church were every bit
as important then as questions of Justification and Mary are to us.
--
                                              --- Tim Rolfe
                                           rolfe@dsuvax.dsu.edu
                                            ROLFE@SDNET.BITNET
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Date:         Thu, 1 Oct 1992 07:49:20 EDT
From:         Bernice Tennant <U1A9A@WVNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Sinless Perfection

Jesse,

When we confess to others, they can pray for us and remind us not to sin.
They cannot heal us.  Only God can heal.
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
From: iain@ee.ryerson.ca (Iain Campbell)
Subject: Re: Why did Jesus Die?
Organization: Ryerson Polytechnical Institute, Toronto
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 14:04:26 GMT

In article <CHRISTIA%92092403585911@ASUACAD.BITNET> MKLINE%VDH.BITNET@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU writes:
>Subject: RE: Why did Jesus Die?
>
>
>From--------- "(Ian Nelson)" <ian@BVSD.CO.EDU>
>
>iain@ee.ryerson.ca (Iain Campbell) writes:
>
>>>So that leads me to today's question: if Jesus was without sin, and if death
>>>results from sin, why did Jesus die?  Why was he killable?
>
>>With respect, is this not surely one of the fundamental points of the
>>Christian faith?  Jesus was killable because God chose it to be so.
>>See Ro.8:1-5.
>
>But He didn't really die. He came back and thus defeated death.
>
>MAKS> But he did die. He had to so that we could be forgiven. But,
>      death could not hold him. And yes, he GAVE His life because
>      no one, no thing had the power to take it.
>
>      As the song says,
>     "He could have called 10,000 angels,
>      to destroy the world and set Him free,
>      He could have called 10,000 angels,
>      but He died alone, for you and me."
>
>      Praise God, that He died that we must live. We deserved
>      DEATH, but he took that penalty, for me, for you.
>
>Maks

**AMEN**

"In this is love, not that we loved God but that he loved us and sent
his Son to be the atoning sacrifice for our sins." - I John 4:10
                  ^^^^^^^

or, as Charles Wesley wrote:
"Amazing love, how can it be that Thou, my God, should'st die for me!"


Iain
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1992 19:52:40 EDT
From: Kurt Ludwick <KEL111@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: Rush, a Christian?

In article <CHRISTIA%92092818265631@ASUACAD.BITNET>, Lon Mendelsohn
<LMENDELS@CMS.CC.WAYNE.EDU> says:

>Aside from the fact that Mr. Limbaugh is a conservative shill, how
>do you know that he is a Christian?

There is a chapter in his new book titled something like 'Religion and
America (or Religion and Gov't): they DO go together'.

I forget the wording, but he often states on his show, as he does in his
book, how outrageous it is that God is illegal in public schools.

He has stated on his show, and I _think_ in his book (I'm not sure, I'll have
to read that part more closely) that he is a Christian.  He does, however, make
allowances for readers who don't believe in the Bible -- explaining his views
in other ways which don't rely on scripture.   He isn't an -intensely- reli-
gious person.

Well, I hope that's an adequately confusing answer.  I'll make it more
vague by request; I don't have time to be specific or be sure about quotes
from the book.  Suffice it to say that yes, Rush is a Christian.

------------
Kurt Ludwick
------------
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Date:         Sat, 3 Oct 1992 14:04:07 CST
From:         Ian Williams <iwilliam@AU.ORACLE.COM>
Subject: Re: males vs females and God
              92 10:48 am

Hi!

Its not a real big issue with me, however it occured to me that it might
be easier for a female to accept the 'love' of Jesus in an easier sense
than it would be a man!..

I know Jesus loves me and I love him. but could a woman be 'in love' with
him? Is that Blasphemous??


---------------------+-------------+-----------------------------------------
Ian Williams         |    _--_|\   |      Internet: iwilliam@au.oracle.com
Oracle Systems       |   /      \  |	  Phone	  : +61 8 239 3900
Adelaide, Australia  |   \_.--*_/  |
                     |         v   |
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Date:         Sun, 27 Sep 1992 12:31:28 EDT
From:         MKLINE%VDH.BITNET@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU
Subject:      Legislating Morality

Subject: Legislating Morality



From a segment of the next New Age post. This asks a very good question.

    Josh: There are those that constantly confront me with this message,
it's "Josh, you have no right to regulate the morality of someone else."
The church, the schools, the government, society has no right to
legislate morality when it comes to sex. And then they'll say something
like this, "What happens behind closed doors between two consenting
adults," and any 12 year old kid will tell you he's a consenting adult,
he's an adult, "What happens between two consenting adults behind closed
doors, the state, the government, the church, society, the culture, the
school, the university, has absolutely nothing to say about it."

    Now that sounds good, but IF THAT IS TRUE, then when they walk out
behind those closed doors, why do they demand MILLIONS UPON MILLIONS and
now BILLIONS of taxpayers PUBLIC dollars for AIDS research? For sexually
transmitted disease research? Why does Planned Parenthood ask for
MILLIONS of PUBLIC funds for abortion and condoms and everything else, IF
the government has no say so to what happens behind closed doors?

    I always thought "No taxation without representation." and the whole
culture is involved. Is it a private act between two individuals behind
closed doors? If it is then you have to explain away that I was able to
take all the different government figures and work out that for aid to
dependant children and things from teenage pregnancy, for sexually
transmitted disease expense of the government and taxpayers, for AIDS
expense research and the cost to society and everything else, IT'S
COSTING THE US TAXPAYER RIGHT ABOUT $73 MILLION A DAY! Our culture, our
economy cannot survive that, especially when you add the cost of drugs
onto it. Just drugs and sexually transmitted diseases can destroy this
economy. It's too much of a drain.

Maks.
From: AMZIMM01@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU (Angela Zimmerman)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: To Stephen Kingston
Date: 5 Oct 92 16:32:25 GMT
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Item Retrieval Assistant, DADS
Phone: 588-6757

I tried to send this private, but it bounced back.  Could you give me
some sources on the British Israelites (thanks, Darren, for the refs. about
the Worldwide Church of God!)?  I'm (hopefully) going to do my religion
paper on this group since neither I nor my religion professor had ever
heard of them and I'm having trouble finding many sources about them.
Thanks!
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Date:         Tue, 29 Sep 1992 16:11:49 CDT
From:         Tom Brewer <NOTTMB@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Purgatory: Justice or Works?

Eric:

About your post:
> NO -- you obviously are totally missing the point.  _NOTHING_ is being
> added to the atonement of Jesus Christ.  Purgatory has nothing to do
> with soteriology!  It has to do with SANCTIFICATION.

This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the
law, or by the hearing of faith?

Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by
the flesh?
Gal 3:2-3

> Again, and again, I will point out:  Scripture makes it clear that
> though we are forgiven of our sins, we must STILL suffer for them.  We
> reap what we sow, we will be repaid according to our works, forgiveness
> or no! David was forgiven by God, but his son still died.  Paul said
> that he fills up in his own flesh what is lacking in the sufferings of
> Christ.  Scripture says that "love covers over a multitude of sins."

If Scripture makes it clear about Purgatory, then please, you make it clear
for the rest of us. There's a difference between David suffering the
consequences of his sin and the RC version of a post mortum deep fryer.

Sanctification is also by GRACE, and grace alone.

Tom Brewer
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Date:         Mon, 5 Oct 1992 07:43:33 EDT
From:         Frannie <FBURKERT@KENTVM.BITNET>
Subject:      re: my place in heaven

Hi Carol,
   It has been a long time since I've got in contact with you but I had to
comment on "Your place in heaven".  It is early morning here and work is not
where I want to be right now.  But I read your posting and I thought that your
analysis of your concept of heaven was wonderful.  I believe you are correct.
I believe that heaven will be much like what this world would have been sans
sin. As the old hymn says"What a day that will be when my Saviors face I see."
How willing I will be to bend my knee to HIM who died for me.
   Thanks Carol for starting out my day by reminding me for my new how that's
being built and where the mortgage was paid in full many years ago.
                                                         Marinatha,
                                                                 Fran
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Date:         Tue, 29 Sep 1992 23:48:48 EDT
From:         MKLINE%VDH.BITNET@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU
Subject:      Focus on the Family

Subject: Focus on the Family

My Linda attended a seminar tonight on getting involved in government.

One of the things that they said was "Check the sources of your
information. If it's the TV, the newspapers, US News, etc. change your
sources. They don't give the Christian perspective on anything."

They did like "New Dimensions" magazine. It's $29.50(yeagh) for a year
and has a toll free number, 800-231-8819. I have no interest in them.
I found out about them because a brother sent me a copy of it with an
article on Planned Parenthood and the MILLIONS they make spreading
their propaganda.

In the front cover of my first copy they show some of the past issues.
They covered things like: The New Racism; Is Israel Being Sacrificed:
South Africa: Time Bomb; Party Animals - An inside look at the outrageous
way Congress spends your money; Stand By Me (Gulf War); Star Wars Strikes
Back; This is your brain. This is your brain on pop culture. Any questions?;
Cop Bashing; Abortion INC.

They also favored the newsletters and magazines from Focus on the Family.
She couldn't remember what else they might have recommended.

Anyhow, for what it's worth.
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Date:         Thu, 1 Oct 1992 08:06:19 EDT
From:         Bernice Tennant <U1A9A@WVNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: heaven
              MKLINE%VDH.BITNET@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU

On 09/28/92 at 14:22:40 MKLINE%VDH.BITNET@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU said:
>Subject: Re: heaven





>      Glory to the Lamb of God! Who is, Who was, and is to come!
>      King of Kings! And Lord of Lords! Only You are worthy!
>      Praise Your Holy Name! Hosanna to God!

>      Whoops. Got carried away... :-)

Lets get carried away once in a while or even more often.  I have heard
that God likes it.  smile
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