From: fritz@hpfcbig.sde.hp.com (Gary Fritz (tmp))
Subject: Re: Amway
Followup-To: alt.business.multi-level
Reply-To: Gary Fritz <fritz@hpfcbig.sde.hp.com>
Organization: HP SESD, Fort Collins, CO
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1scd1 PL4
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 19:33:35 GMT

I don't BELIEVE this.  I wrote a long, considered reply to John Gregory,
and my newsposter ATE it and posted the echo you saw.  Sorry about that.

Now, what was it I was trying to say....  

======================

Well, I TRIED to redirect this thread to alt.business.multi-level...  *sigh*

I agree with John that this (misc.entrepreneurs) IS NOT the proper forum
for recruiting discussions and so forth.  COULD WE PLEASE MOVE THIS THREAD
TO A.B.M-L???

However, I **DO NOT** agree with John (and others) who categorically state
things like:

> Entrepreneurship <> MLM.
According to my Webster's, an "entrepeneur" is: 
  "one who organizes, manages, and assumes the risks of a business 
   or enterprise"

Now maybe MLM doesn't meet YOUR personal definition of "entrepreneurship"
(since we aren't "raising funds and creating SW products"), but it matches
what I do in MY business.

It's true that MLM distributors don't create their businesses "from scratch".
But I would contend most entrepreneurs don't either.  In most traditional
businesses the owner uses suppliers, marketing channels, etc., so he can
leverage their skills and concentrate on his OWN business.  The same is true,
albiet in a bit more structured/uniform way, in MLM.

Some of your differing opionion may stem from this picture of MLM:

> Trying to convince friends, relatives, or someone you just met to sell soap
> that they buy from you, that you buy from someone else, that (etc etc) is
> salesmanship (at best). 

Sorry, John, but I don't sell soap.  And I don't buy soap (or any other 
product) from N-1 levels to sell to someone else.  This is an outdated image
of MLM (which, unfortunately, some companies still follow).  As it happens, 
I work with a *company* that sells soap (and no, it's not Amway), but that 
is actually incidental to my major job function.  (You work for Lucid.  
Lucid sells software.  Do you sell software?)

Now admittedly this is not an exact parallel.  What I do in my company is
closer to sales (or, rather, sales management) than what you probably do.
But sales is the barest beginning of what my business is about.  Sales is
easy, even for a technoid like me.  But that's not where the big reward
(financial and otherwise) comes from in MLM.  You are paid the big bonuses
for management, training, motivation, helping people, and in general
*getting results through others*.  (And before you flame on that comment,
you should realize it's one of the classic definitions of "management"
in ANY field.)

In my view, the major difference between the job I had as a manager in
an HP software lab and the business I run now is that now I can recruit
others.  You seem to see this as an abhorrent practice; I see it as offering
people the same opportunity I have.  If they work as hard as I do, they have
the chance to do as well or better than I do.  That's not often true in
"traditional" jobs.  It's sure as HELL not true for a lot of the hard-working
but less-educated folks who are tearing up the track in MLM.

My company emphasizes giving everyone a chance for personal growth and
development.  I've seen enough people's lives turned around by the classes
Espial offers that I strongly believe in what they're offering.  So much so
that we're working toward becoming accredited trainers for the company
so we can offer it to others.  Yes, Espial is helping the environment.  
Yes, the financial rewards are good.  Those are both great.  But it's 
the chance to *help others* (and be well-rewarded for it; we're not saints)
that really pulls our chain.  Can you say the same about your SW products 
start-up?

(And in case you're wondering:  I got tired of working for someone else,
and quit HP last fall to concentrate on our MLM business.  Does that count
as "assuming the risks of a business or enterprise"?)


> My first experience with AMWAY was a call from an old friend who claimed to 
> respect my business sense and wondered if I'd like to meet with him and 
> "his partner" to talk over "a business proposition".  Well, my "business
> sense"  told me it was damn suspicious that he wouldn't disclose any details,

I completely agree that this demonstrates questionable business ethics.
It's one of the major reasons I'm not in Amway.  But this is a symptom
of Amway's particular situation, and some particular distributors within
that company.  Please don't damn an entire field because of the actions
of a few (even if dominant) players.  There are some of us out there
who are working to change the perception of MLM, and we don't appreciate
being thrown in with the problem-causers without fair consideration.
Doing so is nothing more than uninformed bigotry.


You can argue about whether you're a more "pure" entrepreneur or not,
but I really don't think it's germaine.  I agree we should not hold these
discussions in misc.e, but only because of the majority opinion of misc.e
folks that they'd prefer not to host MLM discussions -- NOT because of any
inherent inferiority of MLM.

Gary


Now, at the risk of repeating myself:  COULD WE PLEASE MOVE THIS THREAD
TO ALT.BUSINESS.MULTI-LEVEL???
Newsgroups: misc.entrepreneurs