HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: grant@bluemoon.use.com (Grant DeLorean)
Subject: Re: Parents of slain youth continue signature drive in U.S.
Keywords: Yoshihiro Hattori's parents have mush for brains
Organization: Blue Moon
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 92 01:05:01 GMT

lvc@cbnews.cb.att.com (Larry Cipriani) writes:

>Copyright 1992 by <UPI>; may not be reproduced without permission.

>Reposted with permission from the ClariNet Electronic Newspaper newsgroup
>clari.news.issues.  For more info on ClariNet, write to info@clarinet.com
>or phone 1-800-USE-NETS.
>-- 
>	TOKYO (UPI) -- The parents of a Japanese exchange student shot dead in
>October presented U.S. Ambassador Michael Armacost Tuesday with a
>petition calling for tighter gun control laws in the United States.

 I am sorry for their tragedy, but what the hell right do they have
to tell us what to do?

>	``We want the Americans to discuss whether possessing guns is really
>necessary,'' she said.

 We have, it is.

>	Armacost assured the Hattoris the U.S. government would continue to
>strive to improve mutual understanding and promote exchanges between
>Japan and the United States.

 At least his was a reasonable reaction it seems...

-- 
\   Grant DeLorean  - IHMSA & NRA Life Member -  (grant@bluemoon.use.com)   /

        Good leaders being scarce, following yourself is allowed.

Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: booth@mdd.comm.mot.com (Greg Booth)
Subject: Re: Royal Newfie Constabulary
Organization: Motorola - Mobile Data Division; Richmond, BC
Distribution: na
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 21:45:17 GMT

In <1992Dec18.210637.13138@mdd.comm.mot.com> booth@mdd.comm.mot.com (Greg Booth) writes:


>While it is the the Royal Newfoundland constabulary is not
>armed with firearms consider the following:
				 ^^^^^^^^^^
			
>The cops asked some time ago to carry firearms, and were
>denied.

>The only member of the RFC to be killed in the line of duty,
>was killed by a 2x4 wielding striker during a 
>labour dispute about 20 years ago.

>Newfoundland has the highest firearms ownership in Canada.

>Newfoundland has the lowest homicide rate in Canada.


>All in all a very peaceful place.


>-- 
-- 
Greg Booth BSc                    |     /_____________________________
BCAA-PCDHF-BCWF-NFA-NRA-IPSC-BCFSS|@====|_____________________________>
Motorola Mobile Data Division     |     \
booth@mdd.comm.mot.com cgb003@email.comm.mot.com
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: PA146008@utkvm1.utk.edu (David Veal)
Subject: Re: Guns and Age
Organization: The University of Tennessee, Knoxville
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 04:45:49 GMT

In article <1992Dec20.191033.16825@u.washington.edu>
chrispy@hardy.u.washington.edu (Chris Prince) writes:

>I don't know much about guns, but I'm very curious.  I have attempted to learn
>about gun control (especially with handguns) and find it very hard to get
>much help because I'm not 21 yet.

       Hmm.  You shouldn't have any problem finding out about guns, regardless
of your age.   Try your local library if all else fails.  (Or if you're
really desperate, just hang around here.  :-)

>Why must you be 21 to get a handgun?

       Because the federal government said so.  It makes about as much sense
as the requirement you be 21 to purchase alcohol, but you can vote and
be drafted at 18.  This produces some amusing situations, like 18 year
old sheriffs and deputies having to have their parents go buy them their
service revolvers.

>I can walk into any gun shop and by a shotgun, cut off the stock and barrel
>and it would be just a dangerous as any handgun, even as easy to conceal.

        More dangerous.  A *lot* more dangerous *and* more lethal.

>This seems that it is just a waste of time to even have an age restriction
>and besides, it's to easy to get a handgun off the street anyway.

        That's the theory anyway.  There's a good argument to be made for
restrictions on minors, but I really don't see one for the 18 vs. 21
gap.
        You, by the way, I believe, can buy long guns at 18 in most places.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
David Veal     Division of Continuing Education Information Services Group
               University of Tennessee, Knoxville
               PA146008@utkvm1.utk.edu
From: bb063@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Christopher J. Crobaugh)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
Subject: Help on NEJM info
Date: 11 Dec 1992 20:07:45 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: slc4.ins.cwru.edu


Does anyone have the complete text of an article that I THINK
(I'm not 100% sure) that I got off this BBS about the middle of
April, 1992, which refuted the findings of a "study" published
in the December 5, 1991 issue of the New England Journal of
Medicine? This is NOT the Edgar Suter MD article, I have that
one. THis was ANOTHER article that refuted the NEJM premise 
that gun bans in DC brought down the homicide rate. I would
appreciate any help that any one could bgive me.
-- 
bb063@Cleveland.Freenet.Edu  Chris Crobaugh - (216) 327-6655 (V)
"Those who would sacrifice essential liberties for a little 
temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." B. Franklin
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: romingk@pell3l0.alleg.edu (Karl Rominger)
Subject: GUN CONTROL WEANIES
Organization: Allegheny College
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 18:28:42 GMT


I must just say I am amazed by how uneducated and illogical the arguements  
for gun control are.  But then again it would be hard to argue for if you  
had to use reasoning and hard facts

From: Mark.Hockings@f824.n102.z1.fidonet.org (Mark Hockings)
Sender: NewsMeisterII@mcws.fidonet.org
From: starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Tim Starr)
Subject: New Libertarian Gun Control Book
Summary: "The Samurai, the Mountie, and the Cowboy" 
Organization: UDel, School of Life & Health Sciences
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 10:59:08 GMT

There's a new book out that some may be interested in:

THE SAMURAI, THE MOUNTIE, AND THE COWBOY

Should America Adopt the Gun Controls of Other Democracies?

by David Kopel

It's a libertarian public-policy book on gun control that takes an internation-
al, "multicultural" perspective.  Here's the jacket copy:

"Gun control remains one of the hottest topic on America's social agenda.
Increased violence, gang wars in metropolitan areas, and the prevalence of
guns in the United States frequently bring this debate to new crescendos of
public concern.  How can we find answers that maintain safety while protecting
individual liberty?  THE SAMURAI, THE MOUNTIE AND THE COWBOY offers a
compelling look at how other democracies have attempted to solve their own
gun problems, and what we can learn from these countries.

"A basic assumption of the Amercan gun-control movement - one which has
received far less scrutiny than it deserves - is that America is the only
modern nation without strict gun control and therefore the only country to
suffer unchecked violence.  Advocates of restricting or banning firearms
contend that the implementation of foreign-style gun controls would make
America safer and more civilized.  Are they right?  David H. Kopel thoroughly
analyzes how firearms laws actually work in democracies whose approaches to
gun control are frequently reccomended to the American public.  Kopel
explores the policies of Japan, Great Britain, Canada, Australia, New
Zealand, Jamaica, and Switzerland, placing them in their historical,
criminological, and cultural contexts, and offering observations on the
advantages and disadvantages of incorporating them into U.S. law.  After
examining America's 'gun culture,' Kopel proposes a responsible firearms
policy that makes sense for the United States.

"David B. Kopel, an environmental lawyer in Denver, Colorado, was an assistant
district attorney in New York City.  He also serves as associate policy
analyst with the Cato Institute in Washington, D.C., and as a technical
consultant to the International Wound Ballistics Association."

I've read the chapter on Japan, which is very interesting, and am most of
the way through the second one on England.  So far, so good.  The bit about
"responsible firearms policy" triggers habituated skeptical responses, but
I figure Cato wouldn't publish a gun-grabber book, and it's fairly critical
of gun controls thus far, so it may be worth your while to buy it and
read it.

However, Laissez-Faire ain't carrying it that I know of.  Only Freedom's
Forum is: 415-864-0952; VISA and MASTERCARD orders accepted.  Price: $28.95
plus shipping.

Tim Starr - Renaissance Now! - Think Universally, Act Selfishly
starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu

"True greatness consists in the use of a powerful understanding to enlighten
oneself and others." - Francois Marie Arouet Voltaire
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: vince@cadence.com (Vince Gibboni)
Subject: Re: Andy Freeman vs Random House Dictionary (was: Nabbing a car thief)
Organization: Cadence Design Systems, Inc.
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 01:17:45 GMT

andy@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (Andy Freeman) writes:
> (Scot Thorstad) writes:
>
>>  The 1984 (latest edition) of the Random House dictionary defines
>> Saturday Night Special as "a cheap, small caliber handgun that is
>> easily obtainable" of whiich there are many around. 
>
> The Random House Dictionary is wrong on this one.  They often lack the
> technical knowledge to "define" terms and go with something that
> sounds good, but is wrong or basically meaningless.
>

    Nonsense. Random House is dead right on this one (BTW, 1984 is not the
    latest edition). I have total incontrovertable proof of this: J.J. gave
    this definition of "saturday night special" in episode of "Good Times". 
    Okay, not good enough for you ? Well, how about the Lynyrd Skynyrd song 
    "Saturday Night Special"; I can't actually remember much (many?) of the 
    lyrics right now, but clearly their definition of Saturday Night Special 
    was very similar to that of Random House.


--
                                                         vince@gda.cadence.com

    Man, you should have seen them kicking Edgar Allen Poe
        - John Lennon
Xref: sparky talk.politics.guns:25446 soc.men:21401
From: ataylor@nmsu.edu (Nosy)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns,soc.men
Subject: Re: Vigilantes
Date: 18 Dec 92 16:06:57 GMT
	<1992Nov29.184727.26008@dg-rtp.dg.com>
	<DRW.92Nov29203351@euclid.mit.edu>
	<1992Nov29.235623.12219@newstand.syr.edu> <Bz4pq0.Eq2@acsu.buffalo.edu>
	<1992Dec12.194841.8580@henson.cc.wwu.edu>
	<1992Dec15.221623.9319@lmpsbbs.comm.mot.com>
Organization: NMSU Computer Science

<In article <1992Dec15.221623.9319@lmpsbbs.comm.mot.com> bhv@areaplg2.corp.mot.com (Bronis Vidugiris) writes:
<   In article <1992Dec12.194841.8580@henson.cc.wwu.edu> n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio) writes:
<   )v117pdg8@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (DEMIAN) writes:

<   )>Why is it that America has the highest 
<   )>rates of homicide in the world?  
<   )
<   )	It doesn't and isn't even close.  Try Egypt vs US, Cairo vs NYC, or
<   )	Mexico vs US.
<   )
<   )Some 10.9/1,000 people die by homicide 
<   )>each year in the U.S.
<   )
<   )	Closer to 9 per 100,000.<

<   I happen to have some data - a secondary source quoting Interpol,
<   International Crime Statistics, vols 1983-84 - apparently a 1984 survey.

	There is a problem with the data; some nations, such as	
	France, regard crime information as a state secret.
	Thus, they may well under-report.
	
<   This has crime rates of selected countries, and shows the US as the
<   leader in actual homicides of all listed at 7.9 per 100,000.  [Most
<   countries include attempted homicides in their data - the interpol
<   data separates it out into attempts and actual where possible.]  Data
<   for 'attempts' in the US was not available from my source.

<   Egypt has 1.0 homicides per 100K and 1.5 attempts.  Mexico isn't listed.

	Egypt may have 1.0 homicides per 100k *reported*, however
	the actual number must be much higher, if my Egyptian
	friends from Cairo are to be believed.

	Mexico isn't listed probably because their information
	on homicide is far from complete and not for foreigners
	inspection.

<   Northern Ireland has 4.0 homicides and 19.8 attempts, 

	Then terrorist killings must be recorded as something
	other than "murder".

<Chile has 5.8 homicides and 6.3 attempts.  
<Our nearby neighbor Canada has 2.7 actual
<and 6.3 attempts (all per 100,000 population).

	Note that the Canadian low homicide rate *pre*-dates
	their gun-control laws.
From: fiddler@concertina.Eng.Sun.COM (steve hix)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
Subject: Re: Guns, Registration, and the Second Amendment
Date: 14 Dec 1992 23:46:47 GMT
Organization: Sun
NNTP-Posting-Host: concertina

In article <1992Dec12.162424.8845@mic.ucla.edu> mdeering@agsm.ucla.edu (Michael Deering) writes:

>Kalifornnia, in another of its continuing desparate efforts to buy another 
>coat of polish for the cheap brass that is the reality of the Golden State, decreed
>that ALL motor vehicles, even those which are NEVER on the public roads, must
>be registered.  They no longer allow vehicles stored on private property to
>be exempt from registration fees.  

This is known hereabouts as "revenue enhancement".

Another tool used to achieve the same end is to neglect to send out the
normal annual notice of registration renewel (the which includes the
required registration fee...which seems to increase by a random amount
each year).

Once you fail to pay the required registration (which amount will be unknown
to you) fee on time, you get to pay the fee plus a penalty.

Revenue enhancement. Look for future opportunities to contribute.


--
-------------------------------------------------------
| Some things are too important not to give away      |
| to everybody else and have none left for yourself.  |
|------------------------ Dieter the car salesman-----|
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: shaffer@achilles.ctd.anl.gov (Michael A. Shaffer)
Subject: Re: Ruger bashing
Organization: Argonne National Laboratory
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 18:31:40 GMT

[discusion of Ruger' letter to NRA deleted]

His being misquoted is believable however the letter did not address
his support for bans on magazines larger than those used in his rifles.
I would like to hear more about that.

				mike
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: mjp@austin.ibm.com  (Michael J. Phelps)
Subject: 20/20 
Originator: mjp@bwa.kgn.ibm.com
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 92 13:49:11 GMT
Reply-To: mjp@vnet.ibm.com (Michael J. Phelps)
Organization: IBM Kingston NY


i called ABC and got the address:

 Capitol Cities/ABC inc
 20/20 Newsmagazine
 147 Columbus Ave
 New York, NY 10023

Oh, and one more note - our letter was going to take the reporter (John Martin?)
to task for carelss firearm handling (while he was playing with one of the
handguns that they obtained, he carelessly swung it around, at one point it was
pointing at the camera) but my wife convinced me that it would get us nowhere..

-- 
Michael Phelps, (external) mjp@vnet.ibm.com ..
                (internal) mjp@bwa.kgn.ibm.com .. mjp at kgnvmy         
 (and last but not least a disclaimer)  These opinions are mine..       
From: post@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (David Post)
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 06:40:55 GMT
Subject: Re: Important Dates in the Gun Banning Movement
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Fort Collins, CO, USA
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns

Does anybody remember the felon survey that showed that about 80% of
convicted felons got their guns without buying them from a dealer?

Could someone provide a hard citation for that.  I would like to include
some real data in a editorial, but I won't do it until I have verified that
it exists.

Thanks.

David Post  davep@hpfcpp.fc.hp.com  hplabs!hpfcla!post
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: osan@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (Mr. X)
Subject: Re: The basic problem with anti-gun nuts.
Organization: Twilight Zone
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 18:16:43 GMT

In article <1992Dec12.030733.6186@desire.wright.edu> jchristian@desire.wright.edu writes:
>
>Think you need a doctor, Kevin.  Sounds like you're foaming at the mouth.

	Really.  This is a bit uncalled for, I think.  Kevin has not 
	said anything untoward, not has hemade any clear offering of
	insult to anyone.  Why then are you responding like this?
>
>How did this turn into a political discussion?  Don't think you're going to
>find too many sympathetic people with your "Damn-I-Love-Guns" approach.

	Speak for yourself.  Such an apparently narrow view on the subject
	would do well to perhaps listen and learn a bit before biting
	someone's head off and trying to label in a less than flattering
	manner.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: betz@gozer.idbsu.edu (Andrew Betz)
Subject: Re: For gun control? No not really.
Organization: SigSauer Fan Club 
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 22:27:01 GMT

In article <105170@bu.edu> merritt@macro.bu.edu (Sean Merritt) writes:
>for $100.00 not $300.00. In Massachusetts it retails
>for $300.00 that's what Wayne paid at a rifle store.

he should have located a friendly FFL and paid a $25 markup to
the FFL.  centerfire systems has SKSs for about $120.

>The ammo he obtained via mail.

this is not a big deal.  he could have purchased the ammo at
k-mart.  

>Up to that point he did nothing against Mass. or U.S. law.

i don't know if that's true or not.  did he have his bartley-fox
card (i.e., "you ain't got the card, you got a year in jail")?

>He got 9 clips off, 10 rounds per clip, in under an hour.
>The weapon was not modified by Wayne so it was semi-automatic.

huh?  9 clips at 10rounds/clip = 90 rounds.  i don't know
what "under an hour" is, so i'll assume 30 minutes.  that
equates to one shot every 20 seconds!  hell, i can reload
a single shot breechloader faster than that!  semi-automatic
is irrelevant here.

>Killing two wounding four. He put the gun down and surrendered.
>
2 dead out of 6 total casualties = 33% fatality rate.  good thing
he wasn't using a 12-gauge.  it would have been 4 or 5 dead and
1 wounded instead.

>If we do not limit availabilty than I must assume it
>remains as easy for any person as it was for Wayne
>to get his gun. Being only 18 he would have had more
>trouble getting a six pack.
>
sean, we already have limited availability, at least as far as
requiring age limits and so forth.  complete gun BANS in places
like washington, d.c. haven't exactly slowed down the murder rate.
the fact is, if the bad guys want guns they're going to get them.

>My position then is I shall arm myself. I will protect
>myself and the ones I love. I also want to put a 
>fully automatic weapon on my vehicle(to protect against
>Car-Jacking), I further want to install  various 

i respect your right to defend yourself, but be careful about
full-autos and so forth.  there are a heap of hoops you need
to jump through when it comes to full-autos.

drew 
--
betz@gozer.idbsu.edu
*** brought into your terminal from the free state of idaho ***
"Now I am become death, destroyer of worlds." - Oppenheimer
From: kennejs@a.cs.okstate.edu (KENNEDY JAMES SCOT)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
Subject: Re: Andy Freeman vs Random House Dictionary (was: Nabbing a car thief)
Date: 15 Dec 92 00:11:17 GMT
Organization: Oklahoma State University, Computer Science, Stillwater

Somebody (I lost track of who) writes:
>> Now, Tim, what exactly is a "Saturday Night Special"?...
                  ^^^^^^^
Tim replies:
>a cheap, small caliber handgun that is easily obtainable

>Tim

Let me get this straight;  A "Sat. Night Special" is, according
to you and the Random House Dictionary:

1) a handgun  (fairly clear, I hope)

2) cheap

An average handgun runs about $350-$600.  This is from WalMart, "Discount
City".  So would it be reasonable to say that a "Cheap" handgun would cost
less than $300?  This does mean cheap as in inexpensive, doesn't it?

3) small caliber

Gee, I suppose a .38 special or .380 ACP would qualify as small caliber.
After all, these are pretty much mouse guns, considered by most as
barely adequate for shooting people.  Then again, .357 magnum shoots 
exactly the same bullets.  Not many call the .357 mag wimpy. 
------- --- ----

4) easily obtainable

Gun stores are easy to find.  Also, individuals sell guns all the time.
Pretty much you just have to fork over the cash, they hand
you the gun.  Buy at a gun show or from an individual and there's not
even the paperwork that takes about two minutes to fill out.  Sure,
it's not exactly 24-hour we deliver Handguns-R-Us but it is still pretty
easy to obtain a handgun.  Just about any garden variety gun is easy
to find.    

So, the problem with this definition:
I bought a S&W .38 special revolver for $150.  Handed the guy a check
(didn't even have to use cash) and he handed me the gun.  He had a dozen
more just like it.  It fits the above definition just fine.
However, I don't think most people would call it a "Sat. Night Special"!
Why?  It's a target revolver!  It has adjustable sights, extra long 8 3/8 "
barrel, and is a well built, quality, nice looking, super accurate gun.

Even if $150 is too expensive to be a SNS, there are cheaper guns still
that are still ok quality.  Like a Taurus or a Rossi.  Think of them as
Fords and Chevies instead of BMW's.  

It just seems to me that the definition is far too sloppy to be very
meaningful.  The above defintion seems to apply to nifty target guns as
well as crappy homebuilt guns.  You know, pieces of water pipe taped to
a board with a nail to fire the cartridge.

So, Tim, what exactly is a "Saturday Night Special"?

I'd be glad to come up with examples that are even cheaper.

-- J. S. Kennedy
kennejs@a.cs.okstate.edu
Oklahoma State University
Home of "Pistol Pete", our lovable mascot.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: hes@unity.ncsu.edu (Henry E. Schaffer)
Subject: Re: Bad cops - a perfect example
Organization: North Carolina State University
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 00:06:53 GMT

In article <1992Dec16.231632.24380@elroy.jpl.nasa.gov> Minh Lang <minh@inst-sun1.jpl.nasa.gov> writes:
>In article <cm=rr9f@dixie.com> John De Armond, jgd@dixie.com writes:
>...
>> ...   Maybe one of his belligerant
>>victims will put one right between his eyes one day.
>
>I  agree.
>
>  == Minh ==

  Oh shit!  What kind of idiotic over-reaction is this?  The
police officer clearly was being a bit over-protective and/or
thin-skinned, but wasn't engaging in any of the really bad stuff
which John has mentioned many times.  The "victim" in this case
was acting poorly.  Whether my sympathies lie with the "victim"
or the police officer is less important than understanding that
this is a judgement call over a minor item, and minor items do
not justify shootings.  This is not a "perfect example" of a
"bad cop" because this minor item doesn't show that he's a "bad
cop".

  I agree with John that poor behavior by an officer increases
the chance that the officer (and other officers) will get shot,
but I emphatically disagree with John's and Minh's implication 
that minor items like this could possibly justify a shooting.

--henry schaffer