From: lairdb@crash.cts.com (Laird P. Broadfield)
Subject: Re: Privileges and Rights. (was: Re: GORE...)
Date: 5 Oct 92 20:03:35 GMT

In <1+bp!-p@dixie.com> jgd@dixie.com (John De Armond) writes:
>lairdb@crash.cts.com (Laird P. Broadfield) writes:
>>Hmmm.  Okay, again, I'll agree with you.  Glad to do so, in fact.  
>>I would "defend to the death" your right to operate a vehicle on your
>>own, wholly owned property.  However (I'm not entirely comfortable
>>with this argument, but it follows) as an owner in joint tenancy
>>(with you, and every other citizen) I (and my fellow citizens) have
>>chosen to make rules about what you may do on *our* property.  

>Though I have restudied the Constitution and am now somewhat satisfied
>the government has the authority to own property, I don't accept the 
>notion of all of us owing a little piece if it.  If so, then I want my
>little chunk out of the center of I-75 so I can set up a toll booth!

No more than you can walk into the local ARCO and say "I own 100 shares
of Atlantic-Richfield; That's *my* gas pump."  Sounds like a frivolous
example, but it's *exactly* analogous to what I mean.

>Our government is a representative republic with a government as an 
>entity separate from the people, though of the people, by the people, etc.

In the particular example we began with (government discrimination) I
would again hold that yes, the government is entirely separate from the
people, although it exists by the authority of the people, and may employ
some of the people.  In the same way (to use my analogy again) I may be a 
shareholder of AR, with some voting power through which I may elect the
directors, who are empowered by a covenant between us (bylaws) to employ
people in the pursuit of our goals (mission statement.)  Read citizen
for shareholder, elected officials for directors, and Constitution
for mission statement and bylaws, and the sentence works just as well.

>It is this entity that we have allowed to grow out of control to 
>pass things like the 55 mph speed limit and gun control laws.

The key point being: "we have allowed".  

>>I
>>would hope that we would make rules only about those things *likely*
>>to cause harm to a great number of us (your fellow owners) such as
>>operating a giant, powerful machine without training.

>Somewhat agreed, though none of this affects driving being a RIGHT.
>Judging traffic laws SHOULD be according to the same standards as are
>held against prior restraint and other enumerated rights.  The 
>whole concept of the 9th and 10th amendments is to clearly define the fact
>that the enumerated rights in the Bill of Rights are a subset of a 
>citizen's rights.

Yes, BUT.  Under the citizen-shareholder concept, we are regulating your
activity on common property; you are welcome to exercise your right to
your heart's content on your own property.  (I'm still not entirely
happy with this position, but it's not because the concept is flawed, 
it's because my "fellow" citizens are a bunch of blithering irresponsible
idiots.  But that's a subject for another day....)

>>I would infinitely prefer to have virtually no rules about what you
>>may do, and intervene only when you *have* caused harm (i.e. a tort)
>>but apparently my co-owners don't feel that way.

>Judging by how many people ignore traffic laws, the entity called government
>is not very responsive to the will of the people.  So what else is new?

Nonsense.  The entity called government has done exactly what the people
told it to do.  The fact that most of them are too lazy to vote their
share, too irresponsible to consider the issues involved, and so forth,
is not material.  OTOH, the fact that the government thus elected has
noticed this, and begun to abuse this lack of oversight bringing us
closer and closer to a fascist/socialist state de facto under a 
capitalist de jure system, just brings us individual citizens
closer to either fleeing (where to?) or to the second and third boxes.


-- 
Laird P. Broadfield     lairdb@crash.cts.com    ...{ucsd, nosc}!crash!lairdb
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