HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: dp54@mc4adm.UWaterloo.ca (Rob Silcher)
Subject: Re: Hungarian GP
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 15:13:21 GMT

In article <thos.714101164@suite.sw.oz.au> thos@suite.sw.oz.au (Thomas Cohen) writes:
>In <1992Aug16.224815.29756@sequent.com> dafuller@sequent.com (David Fuller) writes:
>
>>>i wonder if there were fisticuffs in the beneton pits later?
>
>>Kinda doubt it.  But I do think that Billy Bob's seat will be open at
>>the end of the year.  Schumacher's clearly earned his spurs. 
>
>Schumacher's earned his spurs yes, but Brundle aint doing so bad
>either. He was being held up by Schumacher during various parts of 
>the race. There is now (after a fairly shaky start) little difference
>in speed between the Benetton Boys, and in finishing reliability.

Hmm... I'm not too sure about this. To me it seemed that Brundle caught up
to Schumacher only when Schumacher was being held up by Berger. When 
Schumacher had a large gap between himself and Berger he was able to quickly
pull away from Brundle. In qualifying it isn't too surprising for Schumacher
to be a second faster. For reliability Brundle has improved alot however my
money would still be on Schumacher to finish in the top three.

On another note, it appeared that Brundle had passed Schumacher and then
vice-versa duringce but we never got to see it. Is it possible that
the original pass never occured and the announcers were wrong? Some of the
camera shots were below par for this race IMHO.

 
>
>>I wonder if Nige and Gerhard will be speaking.  Berger, for my tastes,
>>tried a little TOO hard to squeeze nige on the two times Nige passed him.
>
>Was a little interesting there for a moment, wasn't it? Still, Nige
>didn't seem unhappy on the podium or in the press conference. 
>Was Berger driving another unequal car?
>
It sure seemed that he didn't have the power in the straights that Senna did.

Rob Silcher
From: pod@suite.sw.oz.au (Paul O'Donnell)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
Subject: Re: Proposal: rec.autos.formula1
Keywords: racing autos formula1 newsgroups
Date: 21 Aug 92 04:29:42 GMT
Organization: Softway Pty Ltd

In <1992Aug20.035251.12027@sequent.com> dafuller@sequent.com (David Fuller) writes:

>I'm willing to go through with the process of voting and dealing with
>the various postings to create a group for Formula 1.

Here we go again.........

First let me get this off my chest....

NO!!!!
NO!!!!
NO!!!!

Right, now for some rational discussion.

>I think that it's stifling discussion of a broad range of topics that
>should be discussed in a "sporting" automotive group.

>I don't have it in for F1 but I think that the group is suffering
>greatly from an unstated specialization.  Being a fan of a broad range
>of racing (hey, Sunday is racing day, I look at the F1 tape, I tune 
>into NASCAR, I go to as many events as I can, including prototype races),
>I believe I am not being well served by this group.

I have never counted the articles in the group and I agree that F1
gets more coverage than other forms of motorsport but its not
overwhelming. I'd be surprised if it was > 50%.  The cross-fertilisation
is good and provides an interesting perspective.

>I think that the F1 clan deserves its own sandbox and I am willing to
>facilitate this (boy am I going to regret this).

Why the F1 clan, why not some other clan?  I too am a motorsports
fan first and foremost.  I primarily watch F1 and GP bikes, I used
to follow Australian touring cars until CAMS stuffed it up but I
still have a mild interest.  I also have a mild interest in CART
(I watch Indy every year and occasionally other races).  I have very
little interest in NASCAR and almost no exposure to it other than
this group.  However I like to see all the racing articles in the
group.  I don't always read all of them but thats why I use nn.

>What do you say?

Go ahead and run the vote, at least the (hopefully :-)) resounding
no will kill this discussion for at least a couple months (until
the off-season when we all have nothing more substantive to argue
about).

-- 
Paul O'Donnell                           |"You're just saying that because
pod@softway.sw.oz.au                     |you don't understand art."
Softway Pty Ltd                          |
Phone: +61 2 698-2322 Fax: +61 2 699-9174|     - Jeremy Fitzhardinge
From: duane@cbnewsj.cb.att.com (duane.galensky)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
Subject: Re: Hungarian GP
Date: 19 Aug 92 19:48:19 GMT
Organization: AT&T

In article <1992Aug17.234207.11694@bmerh85.bnr.ca> myhui@bnr.ca (Michael Hui) writes:
>In article <1992Aug17.132532.26089@cbnewsj.cb.att.com> duane@cbnewsj.cb.att.com (duane.galensky) writes:
>>closer (recognizing that patrese was still out in front with
>>a commanding lead for a while there...let's face it, the
>>guy was desparate)
>
>I do not agree with your last sentence.
>
>Patresse demonstrated that he was as good as Mansell. That's why he was way
>out in front. It's just that he's a wee bit less consistent than Mansell.
>
>Of course, he would have assured himself a job next season if only he had won.
>

while i have a lot of respect for patrese, i just don't view
him as being in the same league as the top drivers.  i'm
sure he's a very nice person and all that, but if he were
as good as mansell, i'd think that he would have been still in
a close race for the title, which obviously he is not.

patrese was the perfect teammate for mansell because he really
presented no threat to him all season.  should mansell and
prost wind up driving together, you might expect to see a little
more arguing within the team, as prost will give him some
stiff competition.   i'm leaning towards the view that mansell
will retire, for this very reason...a competitive driver
in an equivalent vehicle might be too much for him to take
next season.   why not retire as champion instead?  he might
never have this opportunity again.

just my opinion, of course.

duane
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
Subject: Re: Rondel
From: loosli@bbs.mdcbbs.com
Date: 18 Aug 92 00:30:19 GMT
 <1992Aug14.165303.20907@hubcap.clemson.edu> <183085@pyramid.pyramid.com> <1992Aug15.104100.11941@neptune.inf.ethz.ch>
Organization: TRW SAFETY SYSTEMS/MESA
Nntp-Posting-User: loosli

In article <1992Aug15.104100.11941@neptune.inf.ethz.ch>, marti@nugget.inf.ethz.ch (Robert Marti) writes:
> 
> What I find interesting is that there was a Formula-2 team called Rondel
> in the early 1970ies.  They first fielded Brabham BT38s with drivers like
> Bob Wollek and Tim Schenken.  Later, they designed their own F2 chassis.
> I vaguely recall that they were even thinking of entering F1, but I don't
> remember what came out of it.  Also, I keep wondering if there wasn't
> a certain Ron Dennis behind the whole thing?
    
The very same Ron Dennis.  After the Rondel team folded, Ron formed the 
Project 4 Team.  It was from this that he bought McLaren Cars, which he renamed
McLaren International.  The chassis' are called MP4's for a reason.

Ben

 +=============================================================+
 | Ben H. Loosli         |                                     |
 | CAD Designer          |    Voice: (602) 396-1960            |
 | TRW Safety Systems    |      Fax: (602) 396-1285            |
 | P.O. Box 6129  (85216)| Internet: loosli@mdcbbs.com         |
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 +=============================================================+
From: myhui@bnr.ca (Michael Hui)
Subject: Re: McLaren's newfound speed
Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd., Ottawa, Canada
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 92 03:03:41 GMT

In article <1992Aug20.005537.2227@morrow.stanford.edu> jeff@pangea.Stanford.EDU (Jeff Freymueller) writes:
>that Senna's car setup was the best for getting a lot of speed out of the
>only corner that really mattered.

There's something illogical here. If the FW14 chassis is so good, then
it should generate better cornering force than the whole field given the
same rear wing setting. So I then extrapolate that the FW14's wing setting
should be less than everyone else's and still be equal to them all in
the small radius twisties. So I then further extrapolate that even if
the Renault engine is equal in power to the Honda, at the end of the
straight Team Willy's pride and joy (what joy? he never smiles) should
definitely be ahead of Team McLaren's pride and joy.

Since none of the above happened, I can only conclude that the FW14
was running far too much wing to be optimal for the course.

Michael MY Hui  myhui@bnr.ca  Ottawa Canada
From: tiok_kl@tac.fi (Kari Leminen)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
Subject: Re: Lotus scores points in Hungary
Date: 17 Aug 92 11:09:06 +0300
Organization: City of Tampere

In article <7s8mj4g.esprit@netcom.com>, esprit@netcom.com (Alan F. Perry) writes:
> Mika Hakkinen, driving for Lotus, got fourth place in the 1992 Hungarian GP.
> Unfortunately, Johnny Herbert got knocked out in the first turn.
> 
> Some big deal involving Nigel Mansell also happened.  Something about
> clinching the 1992 Driver's Championship.
> 
> alan
> 
-- 
     	Hakkinen had his chance on lap 74 when Berger was tryin' to
	overtake Ivan Capelli. Hakkinen tried to take both of them at
	the same time and stepped on gas pedal ,but Lotus Ford just 
	coughed and died. Rear tires locked and Lotus made 360 deg-
	rees spin but luckilly stayed on track. This have had to
        happen very quickly because Brundle in his Benetton just
	behind coudn't overtake Hakkinen.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
tiok_kl@tac.fi       Department of information technology     
Kari Leminen                      Tampere                    
                                  Finland 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
From: tomh@wes.on.ca (Tom Haapanen)
Subject: F1: Frank Williams (was: Driver-owned teams)
Organization: Waterloo Engineering Software
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 11:33:15 GMT

smithr@teecs.UUCP (Robert Smith) writes:
> Frank Williams must have changed if he's a p***k now. A friend of mine
> worked with the Williams team as pit crew in the early 70's and he had
> nothing but good words for Frank Williams. That was in the early days
> when Williams was struggling (before the Saudia-Williams combo gave Frank
> some money to play with) but people have changed before.

I don't have such personal experience, but I recall that at least in the
early '80s, when Alan Jones and Keke Rosberg won their championships in
Williams cars, there was very good rapport within the team.  And I think
this continued at least as long as Keke was in the team (end of the '85
season) -- and when Honda pulled the plug on Williams' engines in'87, there
was widespread public sympathy for Williams and antipathy towards Honda.

Has Frank Williams really changed that much?  Or is sponsor (Renault?) pres-
sure causing him to make "nasty" decisions like canning first Boutsen and
now (apparently) Patrese?

[ \tom haapanen  | "only bullfighting, mountain climbing and motor racing are ]
[ tomh@wes.on.ca |  sports -- all others are only games" -- ernest hemingway  ]
[ waterloo engineering software |     "to thine own self be true" -- polonius ]
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
From: rldg9062@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Luiz A. DeRose)
Subject: Re: Winning F1 at Hungary
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 22:25:15 GMT

rsm@doe.carleton.ca (Raul San Martin) writes:

>In <61Oj03iv62qN00@amdahl.uts.amdahl.com> nxn@uts.amdahl.com (David J. Nixon) writes:
>>onto the straight. To get by Senna, Mansell has to take the last corner
>>almost perfectly, while timing his move to be as close behind Senna at
>>the turn exit as possible. On the few real attempts he made, he didn't
>>get it close enough. Has anyone ever passed Senna down the front straight
>>at Hungaroring?

>Well, there was that exciting dispute between Senna and Piquet a few years
>ago. I can't remember precisely but I think it was Piquet in front and
>Senna chasing him on the Lotus. Anyone remembers?

>RSM.

That was very exciting indeed, I guess that it was in 1986, but as I remember, 
Senna was first, and Piquet was chasing him. Piquet was able to pass Senna at 
the end of the straight, and made the first turn in front of Senna almost 
sideways, like in a go-kart move. 

Luiz A. De Rose
derose@csrd.uiuc.edu
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
From: welty@cabot.balltown.cma.COM (richard welty)
Subject: Re: Cheap open wheel racing
Organization: New York State Institute for Sebastian Cabot Studies
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 16:23:01 GMT

In article <a#9mxcp.esprit@netcom.com> esprit@netcom.com (Alan F. Perry) writes:
>Is there any organization or location or formula or whatever where one
>can do some cheap open wheel racing?  I have no clue about what kind of
>open wheel racing is done in the U.S.

within the SCCA, the inexpensive open wheel stuff is F Vee (air cooled
VW basis), F440, and Club Ford (older formula fords.)

>Also, is there any place where relaxed slaloms/autocross is done?
>Every event that I have been to is so "professional" that I really
>don't feel comfortable since I am really more interested in
>practicing than competing at this time.

often there will be small local clubs whose events are less formal
than the SCCA; you'll have to look about a bit to find these.

richard
-- 
richard welty                            518-393-7228
welty@cabot.balltown.cma.com
  ``if you can read this, mario, you're too close''
    -- bumper sticker seen on a CART safety truck
From: dafuller@sequent.com (David Fuller)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
Subject: Proposal: rec.autos.formula1
Summary: Proposal for a new group for the Formula 1 clan
Keywords: racing autos formula1 newsgroups
Date: 20 Aug 92 03:52:51 GMT
Article-I.D.: sequent.1992Aug20.035251.12027
Organization: Sequent Computer Systems Inc.

I'm willing to go through with the process of voting and dealing with
the various postings to create a group for Formula 1.

I think that it's stifling discussion of a broad range of topics that
should be discussed in a "sporting" automotive group.

I don't have it in for F1 but I think that the group is suffering
greatly from an unstated specialization.  Being a fan of a broad range
of racing (hey, Sunday is racing day, I look at the F1 tape, I tune 
into NASCAR, I go to as many events as I can, including prototype races),
I believe I am not being well served by this group.

I think that the F1 clan deserves its own sandbox and I am willing to
facilitate this (boy am I going to regret this).

What do you say?
-- 
Dave Fuller		 	All opinions expressed are my own and not
Sequent Computer Systems	those of Sequent Computer Systems, Inc.
dafuller@sequent.com
From: rik@hplb.hpl.hp.com (Richard Beckett)
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 08:27:41 GMT
Subject: Re: McLaren technology
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Labs, Bristol, UK
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
Reply-To: rik@hplb.hpl.hp.com


	Just a little thought.
	I wonder if McLaren have more than just their arms up their sleves.
	They may be thinking :
	"OK we'll let this one go...but next year..."
	Who knows what they may be planning, building or secretly testing
	for next year.

	Cheers,


		RIK


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rik O'Chet, Bristol, England.		
Email: rik@hplb.hpl.hp.com		One's never alone with a Rubber Duck !
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: zlsiida@fs1.mcc.ac.uk (dave budd)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
Subject: Re: Senna in 1993
Date: 18 Aug 92 08:53:54 GMT
Organization: Manchester Computing Centre
Originator: netnews@uts.mcc.ac.uk

In article <1992Aug17.193109.29980@aio.jsc.nasa.gov> spenser@fudd.jsc.nasa.gov (S. Spenser Aden) writes:
>In article <Bt54Az.7u4@apollo.hp.com> johnf@apollo.hp.com (John Francis) writes:
>>In article <93845@bu.edu> nicos@cs.bu.edu (Nicos Kontopoulos) writes:
>>>Where did you people hear that Senna said he'd drive for Williams
>>>for free?

James Hunt said Senna said it to him.  I don't think Senna said it to 
anybody else (particularly Frank Williams)

+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
|           It all depends on the size of your ham sandwich           |
|  Dave Budd, MCC, Oxford Rd, Manchester, England   (44)061-275-6033  |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
From: hagood@sabre.den.mmc.com (Dave Hagood)
Subject: Re: Senna, Prost & Mansell
Organization: Martin Marietta Astronautics Group
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 17:16:19 GMT

In article <93949@bu.edu>, nicos@cs.bu.edu (Nicos Kontopoulos) writes:
|> 
|> [stuff deleted]
|> 
|> Drivers of the same team fighting for the championship doesn't seem very
|> exciting to me. It should be (equipment advantage eliminated), but with all
|> the politics in F1... I don't know.
|> 
|> 
|> What do you think about that?
|> 
	Well, what I have noticed in F1 is that there doesn't seem to be
that much _racing_ in it.  Most of the tracks F1 uses seem to limit
the passing opportunities, so what you see is a high-speed parade.  I
think the cars are marvelous technically, the drivers clearly have
abundant talent and courage, but the politics and various shenanigans
between drivers, team, and FISA detract from what the sport as all about.

	I prefer to watch the IndyCars, simply because you can expect to
see some knock-down, no holds barred, racing with the drivers swapping
positions several times a lap.

	Also, you don't see the flagrant blocking techniques in IndyCars
like you do in F1 (Berger squeezing Mansell, twice, in the Hungarian GP).
You don't see drivers taking each other out on the racetrack (Senna/Prost
in Japan 2 years ago).

	It's really a shame.  The concept of F1, with the multi-national
flavor to the teams and the tracks, the World Driving Championship, is
extremely appealling to me.  I just wish they did a better job at realizing
the potential...

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
									|
David M. Hagood			Martin Marietta Astronautics Group	|
									|
Voice:  (303) 977-9657		When in danger, or in doubt,		|
E-mail: hagood@den.mmc.com	Run in circles, scream and shout.	|
Fax: (303) 977-1530							|
									|
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
     static char *disclaimer = "My opinions, not Martin Marietta's."    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: duane@cbnewsj.cb.att.com (duane.galensky)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
Subject: Re: Senna & Prost to Williams. Mansell retires.
Date: 19 Aug 92 19:38:12 GMT
Organization: AT&T

In article <92230.001654A735FJO@HASARA11.BITNET> A735FJO@HASARA11.BITNET writes:
>Sorry, the subject line is not the news.
>It's just what I think.
>Now that Mansell has won the world championship finally,
>he will not want to fight for a seed in the Williams.
>Especially, as Williams looks like preferring both Senna and Prost
>over Mansell.
> 

but then again, senna and prost detest each other, in fact,
prost has said that he'd never drive with senna as a
teammate.

how about prost and schumacher?  hmmmm...

prost and al unser jr.?

duane
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
From: david@cerberus.bhpese.oz.au (David Masters)
Subject: Re: Sennas $0.00 offer
Organization: BHP, Newcastle, Australia
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 23:41:14 GMT

esprit@netcom.com (Alan F. Perry) writes:

>In article <1992Aug17.135524.12725@phillip.edu.au> t9014153@phillip.edu.au writes:
>>In article <1992Aug17.113711.12722@phillip.edu.au>, t9014143@phillip.edu.au writes:
>>> Can anyone confirm what James Hunt said at Hungary about Senna offering his
>>> services to Williams next year for free.
>>> 
>>> No salary seems an unbelievable statement for an driver the calibre of Senna.
>>I heard this too, so I guess money don't matter to him anymore..

>My understanding of Senna's financial situation is that his family was pretty
>well off before he ever started making money racing.  Also, I am sure he
>has earned enough money (how much has he made in the last few seasons) that
>he could take a year with pay.

>alan

Senna may not need a large _official_ salary package, because
these guys at the top make a fortune with private sponsorship
deals with the badges on the driving suits, etc. 
Also, I am sure marlboro would find some new way of paying 
their golden boy if he was strapped for cash.

david
-- 
David Masters, Group Leader - UNIX, 
BHP Information Technology, Newcastle, AUSTRALIA.
Internet: david@bhpese.oz.au        	     Phone: +61 49 402132
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
From: eliot@engr.washington.edu (eliot)
Subject: Will Mansell win the Hungarian GP?
Organization: University of Washington
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 21:45:21 GMT


I've been wondering about this for days now.. No doubt he's still got
the superior car, special fuel or not.  But since this is the race
that will clinch the title for him,  I was just wondering what kind
of pressures he is putting on himself and if he is going to be cool
enough to pull it off if things don't go as planned.  (e.g. if Senna
gets in front).


eliot
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
From: gbg@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (gerald.b.green)
Subject: Re: NASCAR at INDY??
Organization: AT&T
Distribution: na
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 18:39:59 GMT

In article <1992Aug13.152423.27380@cabot.balltown.cma.COM> welty@cabot.balltown.cma.COM (richard welty) writes:
>	.
>	.
>	.
>i'd be curious to see what kind of road course they end up with.
>i'm rarely enthusiastic about road courses built around ovals and/or
>drag strips; drag strip courses aren't so bad (sears point looks fun,
>and gateway in st. louis was suprisingly fun to drive as well), but
>i find the north road course at pocono terminally boring, and the road
>course at NHIS is more than a little strange.  on the other hand,
>the lower banking may make a design easier.  if they weren't putting
>the golf course on the east side, it might have been neat to take a
>road course across the back stretch briefly.  sigh.

I like both Pocono North and NHIS. They both keep you busy and
have a nice variety to them. I guess it's a matter of personal preference.

>richard
>-- 
>richard welty                            518-393-7228
>welty@cabot.balltown.cma.com
>  ``if you can read this, mario, you're too close''
>    -- bumper sticker seen on a CART safety truck

Gerry Green
Unix System Laboratories
gerry@usl.com

Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
From: s1055814@giaec.cc.monash.edu.au (Richard Miller)
Subject: senna
Organization: Monash University College Gippsland, Churchill, 3842, Australia
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 03:53:29 GMT

   If Senna is to go to Williams, as James Hunt says, Frank would be advised
   to buy a quality driver rather than a quality winger!Mansell is pricing
   himself out of the contest, obviously trying to match Senna's effort last
   year with McLaren.
   Mansell may be quick but only in a very good car! Senna has done much
   better in an uncompetitive car. By the way I am no fan of Senna but I
   am a fan of GOOD drivers.



   Flames are welcome......
                                    rich
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
From: shaman@cix.compulink.co.uk (Leo Smith)
Subject: Shumacher and Brundle
Reply-To: shaman@cix.compulink.co.uk
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 10:22:00 +0000

...For those speculating, Michael was extremely reasonable when
interviewed in the pits by Jonathan Palmer.

Roughly ...'I was trying for Berger, but he moved over on me and shut
the door, I had to brake hard and Martin was right behind me and
couldn't brake in time so he hit me and I think weakened the wing.
Then it came off'

No blame being placed anywhere. SHould Berger have given way? Should
Schumacher have not tried it on? Should Brundle have been further
back?

It looked like Martins brakes were not performing well anyway
especially towards the end.