HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: curt@ekhadafi.austin.ibm.com (Curt Finch 903 2F021 curt@aixwiz.austin.ibm.com 512-838-2806)
Newsgroups: tx.politics
Subject: Re: Bush Vetoes Stupid Education Reform Bill
Date: 12 Oct 92 22:15:06 GMT
Distribution: tx
Organization: IBM AWD, Austin

johniac@austin.ibm.com (John Iacoletti) writes:
>curt@aixwiz.austin.ibm.com (Curt Finch/131072) writes:
>|>      The bill lacks such Bush initiatives as $1M grants for
>|> experimental New American Schools and federal money to help low-
>|> income parents send their children to private schools (Stout,
>|> W.S. JOURNAL).

>81% of the private schools in this country are run by churches. 
>Churches get government subsidies galore through tax exemptions.  If
>they expect to get MORE taxpayer money, they should lose their tax
>exemptions and pay income tax as well.

Perhaps if this measly $1M had gotten through Congress for these
(certainly non-religious) experimental New American Schools, so we
could try something new for once, more private non-religious schools
would get some encouragement that the government is behind them.

Perhaps if these subsidies for poor kids got through, it would become
economically feasible for some non-religious schools to start up.

Congress didn't attach a 'no religion' rider to the bill and pass it.
They axed it because they are far more interested in making Bush look
bad than in fixing the schools.

>|> But it would establish several things Bush had
>|> sought, such as standards for key subjects, model tests and
>|> assessments, and increasing flexibility in government education
>|> programs (AP/Balto. SUN).

>Make no mistake:  Bush's real agenda is to Christianize the American
>Education system.  That's why he vetoed this.  "School choice" is just
>a smokescreen.

Bush does not strike me as a zealot Christian.  I think you have zero
evidence for this statement.  School choice worked in Harlem, it can
work in Austin.  Our schools are a mess, we need to try it.

Your comments fall right in the lap of the NEA like a gift from the
sky.  Don't give those assholes any more ammo.  They are against any
significant reform in the educational system, (except increased teacher
pay of course, and more administrators.)

The NEA just loves Clinton, by the way.

I don't want to see our school system 'christianized' either.  I just
want it fixed.  I'd be happy with a non-religious voucher system, but
the NEA and Bill Clinton don't want that either.

-- 
--
curt@aixwiz.austin.ibm.com (Curt L. Finch) | AIX NFS/NIS Field Quality 
My views are unrelated to those of IBM     |        Austin, TX
 -If you vote against Bush, be fair and throw out Congressional incumbents too-
From: jfh@rpp386.lonestar.org (John F. Haugh II)
Newsgroups: tx.politics
Subject: Re: Worker Productivity
Date: 10 Oct 92 02:33:17 GMT
Reply-To: jfh@rpp386.cactus.org (John F. Haugh II)
Distribution: usa,tx
Organization: River Parishes Programming, Austin, Republic of Texas

In article <1516@airgun.wg.waii.com> reed@rd08.wg2.waii.com writes:
>One surprise is Germany's low ranking.  The six weeks vacation that
>every employee in Germany is mandated by law might have something to
>do with that.  It just shows you that worker productivity and economic
>success and necessarily correlated.

I =knew= there was something else wrong with this statement when I
first looked at it.  This paragraph is what it is.  Notice that the
statistics that were given do not appear to be PER HOUR statistics,
but rather some "per year" figure.

The Japanese are notorious for working overtime, even when it is
illegal.  The Japanese "donate" time or some other story to keep
their employers from breaking the laws against working themselves
to death.  On the other hand, the Germans take off 6 weeks out of
the year.  The Japanese have 12 official holidays.  We have 11,
and one of those (Mother's Day) always falls on Sunday.

Now, if the Germans can get away with having some "productivity"
number be lower because they work 4 weeks less than we do, why
can't we have a lower "productivity" number because we work fewer
hours per week and have fewer national holidays than the Japanese?
With the average workweek being under 40 hours (Source: DoL), what
do you think the odds are that American workers "produce" those
results in some fraction of the total hours as those Japanese
workers?

The answer is simple - America Bashing is fashionable.
-- 
John F. Haugh II        [  TSAKC  ] | When Bill Clinton toured L.A. after the
Ma Bell: (512) 251-2151 [ DoF #17 ] | riots, instead of praising law abiding
!'s: ...!cs.utexas.edu!rpp386!jfh   | citizens who defended home and family, he
@'s: jfh@rpp386.cactus.org          | called for a ban on the tools they used.
From: jfh@rpp386.lonestar.org (John F. Haugh II)
Newsgroups: tx.politics
Subject: Re: BullShit
Date: 9 Oct 92 01:46:37 GMT
Reply-To: jfh@rpp386.cactus.org (John F. Haugh II)
Distribution: tx
Organization: River Parishes Programming, Austin, Republic of Texas

In article <1992Oct8.090615.16819@montagar.com> davidc@montagar.com (David L. Cathey) writes:
>In article <21677@rpp386.lonestar.org>, jfh@rpp386.lonestar.org (John F. Haugh II) writes:
>> The problem with not bringing it up (I didn't) or not responding to
>> statements that are made is if someone says "You don't know what it's
>> like to be poor because you've always been rich" - what are you going
>> to do?
>
>	Well, they may be right, but if they are going to use an argument like
>that to "prove" that my ideas are wrong, it won't work.  You might be offended
>by a statement like that and feel the need to defend yourself.  I do not.
>Just because they read something they may not like and respond in a knee-jerk
>reaction, doesn't make me feel like I have to lie to make them like me.

Well, when "they" are most of the liberals that read this group, it gets
kinda tiresome.  Besides, it doesn't matter if they are right or wrong, my
income is irrelevant to the discussion.

>	Anyway, do such an accusation give reason to lie?  You appearently
>think so, to your discredit.  Your idea that you would lie in response to
>avoid friction really destroys your credibility.  "I don't always lie" you
>may say, but how are we to know the difference?  You may actually believe in
>abortion, but it reduces friction with those around you to say you abhore it.
>You mirror those beliefs to stay in their good graces.  How can we tell?

I stated quite clearly when I "lie".  You seem to have some problem with
this.  If my income is none of your business, it doesn't matter what I
tell you - it was STILL none of your business.  Likewise, my position on
abortion is none of your business, and indeed, my arguments about abortion
do not hinge on my personal views on the subject.  It is not my belief
that abortion is wrong simply because I think it is wrong.

In the same manner, whether or not wealth redistribution is wrong has
nothing to do with how much income I earn.  Either my arguments are sound,
or they're not.  If I make $40K per year they will still be sound - even if
I get a raise all the way to $1M the next year.

At any rate, I've noticed no one is chastising James Berry for his severe
breach of etiquette, so this is the last from me on the subject.  Next time
I hear some interesting gossip I'll be sure to spread it around.  Seems
like gossip is quite acceptable in this group ...
-- 
John F. Haugh II           [  TSAKC  ]       UUCP: ...!cs.utexas.edu!rpp386!jfh
Ma Bell: (512) 251-2151    [ DoF #17 ]            Domain: jfh@rpp386.cactus.org
From: jfh@rpp386.lonestar.org (John F. Haugh II)
Newsgroups: tx.politics
Subject: Re: Bush Vetoes Stupid Education Reform Bill
Date: 10 Oct 92 02:37:44 GMT
Reply-To: jfh@rpp386.cactus.org (John F. Haugh II)
Distribution: tx
Organization: River Parishes Programming, Austin, Republic of Texas

In article <1992Oct09.152047.25890@watson.ibm.com> johniac@austin.ibm.com (John Iacoletti) writes:
>The other issue is teaching superstitious mumbo-jumbo to children before
>they've had a chance to develop their bullshit detectors.  I think it's
>immoral to lay that mind-trip on them.  You can teach your children
>whatever you want, but I think publicly-funded schools should be 
>restricted to teaching factual information.

You should study the current debate about the validity of homeopathic
medicine.  I've read a number of articles on the subject and it looks
like there is some validity to that form of mumbo-jumbo.

Moral:  Watch what you call mumbo-jumbo.
-- 
John F. Haugh II        [  TSAKC  ] | When Bill Clinton toured L.A. after the
Ma Bell: (512) 251-2151 [ DoF #17 ] | riots, instead of praising law abiding
!'s: ...!cs.utexas.edu!rpp386!jfh   | citizens who defended home and family, he
@'s: jfh@rpp386.cactus.org          | called for a ban on the tools they used.
From: susan@korova.uucp (Susan)
Newsgroups: tx.politics
Subject: Re: Chinascam
Date: Wed, 07 Oct 92 23:00:19 CDT
Organization: VHF void tube of the mind (713) 492-2783

> Well in this case he was careful enough to try to doublecheck this story.
> And it brought him to the attention of the government.
> And they confirmed the reports to him, as his column relates.  I don't 
> think he's lying.  And his report did galvanize a bipartisna group of 
> Senators to demand a Special Prosecuter to investigate and prosecute.
> They seem to feel there were some laws broken here.
> I have seen nothing to suggest in this particualr case that Anderson is 
> wrong or lying.  And in this case, the call for a Special Prosecutor is 
> not a democratic thing entirely. 
  
How do you know that Jack Anderson did any fact checking on this?  How do 
you know that he wasn't just reprinting some odd letter sent to him or 
letting an over-eager intern write a badly researched story?
  
And Senators will do anything if they thing they are being watched.
  
Of course, if you tell me how you happen to know -- then I have to figure 
out if you are in a position to know....


--
                          the korova milkbar
             land of the CHEEZ          home of the WHOPPER
                             713-492-2783
Newsgroups: tx.politics
From: mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539)
Subject: Re: BullShit
Organization: Texas Instruments, Inc
Distribution: tx
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 14:40:36 GMT

In article <1992Oct05.180233.28134@watson.ibm.com> johniac@austin.ibm.com (John Iacoletti) writes:
>In article <1992Oct3.042322.25896@mksol.dseg.ti.com>, mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539) writes:
>|> Seems to me that someone who
>|> states plainly that they will lie whenever it is convenient shouldn't
>|> be trusted even when they give sources.  After all, they could lie,
>|> selectively interpret, or selectively edit what they see.
>
>The nice thing about sources is you can look them up, and quite easily
>determine whether he is lying, selectively interpreting, selectively
>editing or whatever.

Assuming, of course, that you have that kind of spare time.  Some of
us have a living to earn.  Frankly, given what he's shown me, it seems
a good bet to simply assume that he is engaging in all those things
and work from there.

-- 
"Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live
 in the real world."   -- Mary Shafer, NASA Ames Dryden
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred.McCall@dseg.ti.com - I don't speak for others and they don't speak for me.
From: curt@ekhadafi.austin.ibm.com (Curt Finch 903 2F021 curt@aixwiz.austin.ibm.com 512-838-2806)
Newsgroups: tx.politics
Subject: ABOLISH U.S. DOED
Date: 6 Oct 92 21:35:16 GMT
Distribution: tx
Organization: IBM AWD, Austin


                   =====  EDUCATION '92  =====

*9   CALIF. SENATE RACE:  HERSCHENSOHN WANTS TO ABOLISH U.S. DOED
     Republican U.S. Senate candidate Bruce Herschensohn, who has
said he wants to dismantle the U.S. DoEd, has begun airing
television ads that say state schools would improve if the
federal government stayed out of education (Farragher, San Jose
MERCURY NEWS).
     Herschensohn says in the ad:  "Billions of California
education dollars go to Washington bureaucrats.  These dollars
could stay right here to serve our schools.  Better education
means more and better jobs."  He also says Washington bureaucrats
are "laughing at our false belief that they know best.  I plan to
change that." (Wildermuth, S.F. CHRONICLE, 10/3)
     Herschensohn has said Calif. taxpayers have sent $4B to the
DoEd for education and gotten back about $3B worth of programs,
according to the MERCURY NEWS.
     Rep. Barbara Boxer (D), Herschensohn's opponent for the
Senate seat, said the abolition of the DoEd would wipe out
billions in college loans, special education programs, and adult
and vocational education programs (multi).   But Herschensohn
said most of the department's programs could be returned to the
states and the remaining federal programs could be run by other
federal departments, the CHRONICLE writes.
     Boxer:  "Education is not a priority for Bruce Herschensohn.
Who is he trying to fool?  California voters know that he would
rather spend billions of dollars on wasteful weapons systems like
SDI than invest in one child's education from (preschool
programs) through college." (MERCURY NEWS, 10/2)



-- 
--
curt@aixwiz.austin.ibm.com (Curt L. Finch) | AIX NFS/NIS Field Quality 
My views are unrelated to those of IBM     |        Austin, TX
 -If you vote against Bush, be fair and throw out Congressional incumbents too-
From: davidc@montagar.com (David L. Cathey)
Newsgroups: tx.politics
Subject: Re: Worker Productivity
Date: 9 Oct 92 16:32:34 GMT
Distribution: usa,tx
Organization: Montagar Software Concepts, Plano TX

In article <21692@rpp386.lonestar.org>, jfh@rpp386.lonestar.org (John F. Haugh II) writes:
> In article <1516@airgun.wg.waii.com> reed@rd08.wg2.waii.com writes:
>>1989 Manufacturing Productivity from the Bureau of Labor Statistics
>>(Source 1991 World Almanac)
> 
> I think there is a stupid factory somewheres near by.
> 
	"Where ever you go, there you are" - Buckaroo Banzai

	If you have a better source, then name it.  You do not believe in
others refuting by vehement denial.  This is a valid measure of productivity,
agreed not encompassing all known forms of employment.  I'll bet if it
agreed with your position, you wouldn't utter word one.

> Not everything is "manufactured."  I, for one, haven't manufactured
> anything in 11 years.  Last time I checked I was still being paid.

	Farmers get paid to not grow crops.  Hmm...	
> -- 
> John F. Haugh II           [  TSAKC  ]       UUCP: ...!cs.utexas.edu!rpp386!jfh
> Ma Bell: (512) 251-2151    [ DoF #17 ]            Domain: jfh@rpp386.cactus.org
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 
David L. Cathey		                |INET: davidc@montagar.com
Montagar Software Concepts              |UUCP: ...!montagar!davidc
P. O. Box 260772, Plano TX  75026-0772  |Fone: (214)-618-2117
From: gak@n5abi.hou.tx.us (Gene A. Kennedy)
Newsgroups: tx.politics
Subject: John & Fred
Date: Tue, 06 Oct 92 22:40:03 CDT
Organization: Ham Radio Operator, Houston Tex.


>John writes:

>Mirroring disagreeable behavior is sometimes effective in demonstrating
>how stupid the behavior is.

>then Fred writes:

>In my experience, people who act like John does almost invariably
>dislike being treated as they so often treat others.  If they dislike
>it ENOUGH, they will often modify their behaviour once they figure out
>what is going on.  Of course, that assumes they are ABLE to figure out
>what is going on; not always a good assumption.

  What! Fred and John agreeing, in essence, on something? Both 
think that mirroring disagreeable behavior (here on the net) might 
somehow change that behavior.

  Actually, it should be no supprise that they agree on this. In 
matters of substance they may never agree, but in *style* they are 
all too often identical. 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
          Gene Kennedy - Ham Radio Operator, N5ABI - 
                      gak@n5abi.hou.tx.us
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
        Exculpatory, a nifty little word that meant confuse
           the hell out of the jurors. -- Stephen Coonts
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: tx.politics
From: hari@NeoSoft.com (Doug Andersen)
Subject: Re: Worker Productivity
Organization: NeoSoft Communications Services -- (713) 684-5900
Distribution: usa,tx
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 04:52:06 GMT

In article <1992Oct9.163234.16826@montagar.com>, davidc@montagar.com (David L. Cathey) writes:
> In article <21692@rpp386.lonestar.org>, jfh@rpp386.lonestar.org (John F. Haugh II) writes:
> > In article <1516@airgun.wg.waii.com> reed@rd08.wg2.waii.com writes:
> >>1989 Manufacturing Productivity from the Bureau of Labor Statistics
> >>(Source 1991 World Almanac)
> > 
> > I think there is a stupid factory somewheres near by.
> > 
> 	"Where ever you go, there you are" - Buckaroo Banzai
> 
> 	If you have a better source, then name it.  You do not believe in
> others refuting by vehement denial.  This is a valid measure of productivity,
> agreed not encompassing all known forms of employment.  I'll bet if it
> agreed with your position, you wouldn't utter word one.
> 
> > Not everything is "manufactured."  I, for one, haven't manufactured
> > anything in 11 years.  Last time I checked I was still being paid.
> 
> 	Farmers get paid to not grow crops.  Hmm...	
 
John's right.  American productivity is still higher than Japan, and (as I
said earlier) is growing much slower than Japan.  Check out the latest
(Oct 19th) issue of Fortune for four pages of stats on the productivity
issue (along with a number of other interesting economic issues).
 
I won't get further along in the gory details unless someone is really
interested.
-- 
Doug Andersen
hari@Sugar.NeoSoft.com
Newsgroups: tx.politics
From: hari@NeoSoft.com (Doug Andersen)
Subject: Re: Football Failures at Bowie Force end of Season
Organization: NeoSoft Communications Services -- (713) 684-5900
Distribution: tx
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 15:12:57 GMT

In article <4709@d75.UUCP>, curt@aixwiz.austin.ibm.com (Curt Finch/131072) writes:
>      "I am not a proponent of no-pass, no-play ... I believe it
> is imperative we emphasize academics, athletics, activities --
> the three A's.  They are all juxtaposition, side by side," said
> Bowie Principal Paul Strelzin (10/9).
 
And we wonder why our schools are in trouble.  Here's a principal who
thinks that spanish club and football are as important to a student's
future as good English skills and science.
-- 
Doug Andersen
hari@Sugar.NeoSoft.com
Newsgroups: tx.politics
From: mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539)
Subject: Re: gun(s) for carry in a car
Organization: Texas Instruments Inc
Distribution: tx
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 13:48:43 GMT

In <1992Oct12.195115.42496@watson.ibm.com> johniac@johniac.austin.ibm.com (John Iacoletti) writes:

>In article <BvsCoC.CCw@rice.edu>, kossack@owlnet.rice.edu (Jordan Marc Kossack) writes:
>|> 	Look, I'm not saying it is right, and you have my sympathy if  
>|>    you're hassled because you fit some police profile, but that's the 
>|>    way it works.  You're more likely to be stopped/hassled/searched if 
>|>    you look "suspicious" to an individual officer.

>That's not the way it SHOULD work.  "Probable cause" doesn't mean that
>some "pig" doesn't like the way you dress, or the color of your skin.


Quite true, but what do we do when it is shown (as it has been in at
least some cases, although I'm not familiar with what you're talking
about in Houston) that the 'profiles' WORK; i.e., that people who fit
a 'profile' (which happens to include race, without being restricted
to it) will be about 70%-80% 'hits'?  Is matching that profile then
sufficient 'probably cause' for further action?

[I know what my answer is in principle, but I'm rather curious about
how this group will come out.]

-- 
"Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live
 in the real world."   -- Mary Shafer, NASA Ames Dryden
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred.McCall@dseg.ti.com - I don't speak for others and they don't speak for me.
From: miller@hmsp04.wg3.waii.com (Griff Miller X7114)
Newsgroups: tx.politics
Subject: Re: Bush Vetoes Stupid Education Reform Bill
Date: 7 Oct 92 15:24:34 GMT
Distribution: tx
Organization: Western Geo. - Div of Western Atlas Intn'l Inc., Houston, TX

In article <1992Oct06.231458.33891@watson.ibm.com> johniac@austin.ibm.com (John Iacoletti) writes:
>
>Whatever.  The point is they have fewer expenses than secular private schools,
>who have to pay taxes, which is why most private schools are run by churches. 
>After all, they know a good deal when they see one.  Not to mention the access
>to lots of impressionable young minds to mold, thus ensuring years of
>future collection plate opportunity. 
>
But secular private schools are businesses, after all, with income. If a church starts
a private school, it's because they want to make available to their congregation and
(quite possibly) others a school that integrates academics and religion, not to make a few 
bucks. Sure, there are corrupt people out there who might, but in general churches open
private schools for the furtherance of the gospel.

Which is where the impressionable young minds come in. The idea is not to ensure future 
collection plate opportunity, but to teach these kids about Jesus.
>
>Oh SURE they are.  All they have to do is buy another parcel of land, or build a
>"charity" hospital, and they magically become "non-profit" (even if the parcel
>of land happens to have a revenue-producing theme park on it).
>
Well, I've never been to a church with a theme park. I think those must be pretty few and
far-between.

Church contributions are made in order to give back to God some of that with which he has 
blessed us. Naturally, God does not have checking account that we deposit it in every 
Monday morning. He trusts us then to use it properly - most do, some do not - to spread
even further the good news of Jesus Christ. Part of this goes toward building maintenance
such as water, electricity, gas, and general upkeep. The rest goes to various ministries,
like running a private school, charities, advertising, starting new churches, etc. My point
is that churches don't turn a profit, usually. People don't make money in the "church
business". I don't get more back from my church (monetarily) than I put in.
>
>They use the same police, fire protection, roads, etc. as any other business.
>
Well, I was actually talking about government funding for the private schools. As far as
local services go, it may be that churches do pay for that in some way. I'll have to see - 
I hadn't really thought about it. 

Incidentally, I think I'm missing your point on the roads part - how do churches use roads?
People use roads, yes, but churches?
--
Griff Miller - miller@monarch.wg3.waii.com - My opinions are mine, not Western's.
  "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge, but fools despise wisdom 
   and discipline."   - Proverbs 1:7