From: Mutant for Hire <mfterman@phoenix.Princeton.EDU>
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Re: Shaming men's sexuality
Date: 11 Dec 1992 20:13:31 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
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In article <1g90ojINN93a@agate.berkeley.edu>, cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese) writes:
>I don't know if you are a man (mutants I'll assume can be either sex
>;-)), but the only time I've ever heard anti-man jokes is from men who
>wants to use them to compare anti-woman jokes with.  You know, the old
>"The vibrator can't mow the lawn" and stuff like that.  I have NEVER
>HEARD a joke like that from a woman, but I have heard it many, many,
>many times from men when they tell an anti-woman joke and I tell them
>that it is tasteless.  They immediately say, "Well . . well . . well,
>what about this one?!?!?!" and proceed to tell some anti-man joke.  I
>think those things are better backlash ammunition for men than they are
>jokes for women.

Well, where I come from, I rarely hear the anti-male or anti-female
jokes, except for the occasional blonde jokes, which are often told by
blonde women who obviously are being ironic. And on a humor mailing
list I'm on, I saw one mailing with a huge pile of them. Not to mention
the "teddy bears are better than men" jokes, which I have seen appear
periodically, or the "cucumbers are better than men" and so on. So I
have an experience which is different than your own, doesn't make either
of our experiences invalid. (to counter a later point)

>And, yes, I said "I know."  Are you aware of how MANY men I know or have
>known?  I am not talking about two or three here.  And, while I may not
>have a distinct reference for this, my own life experience counts as
>real data; it's sad that life experience is not accepted unless it has a
>publisher's name and page number after it.

I know, but there are a lot of men out there that you problably haven't
met. Additionally, do you go checking all your male friends to see if
they like pornography? Could be a lot of nice people out there like
pcitures of nude people, its just something that doesn't come up in
conversation.

My experiences with pornography and treatment of women have totally
opposite data to your own, which is why I don't argue with your own
experience, but I'd argue with your generalizations. I think your
experience that the people you know to consume pornography tend to
have a less respectful view of women is valid, I disagree with your
generalization to all people who read erotica.

Of course, my sample is biased. While I know many people who are
considered "deviant" by the more puritant morals of American society,
the crowd has an explicit code of behavior about consentuality,
respect, concern for the partner's well being physically and mentally,
and so on. I know this crowd is different from the majority, indeed,
the majority of people who read porn may treat women like scum, but
the fact that these people are different than that norm is what makes
me feel that there doesn't have to be a connection.

Also, you write about porn as it was a single unified genre without a
redeeming features. This is like claiming all mystery novels are the
same and have the same attitudes towards men and women. There is a
tremendous amount of variation in any given subject. There is the stuff
sadly all to prevalent that degrades women. Then there is a bunch of
pornography that is written by women and not just for women.

I read comic books. The majority of comic books are written for
children and are about superheroes. The stuff that I read is not meant
children, and it is assuridly not about superheroes, (Cerebus et al)
and I have a severe problem explaining that just because the majority
of it is stuff that is lousy and I don't read, that all of it doesn't
fall into this category.

There is the possiblity that these men with lousy attitudes towards
women seek out material that reinforces those beliefs. This does not
mean that all the material in the very broad and sometimes rather
nebulous category called "pornography" is in fact stuff that places
women in degrading roles, it means that they are not interested in
seeking out the stuff that doesn't fall into that category. I seriously
doubt these men would go out and buy _Macho Sluts_. Therefore, the
problem lies not in the porn, but in themselves.
-- 
    Martin Terman, Mutant for Hire, Mean Ol' Top, Priest of Shub-Internet
    Disclaimer: Nobody else takes me seriously, why should you be the first?
mfterman@phoenix.princeton.edu mfterman@pucc.bitnet terman@pupgga.princeton.edu
"Sig quotes are like bumper stickers, only without the same sense of relevance"


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