Newsgroups: comp.org.decus
Subject: Re: EXECUTION of DECUS Standards
From: tp@mccall.com (Terry Poot)
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 14:59:55 CST
Reply-To: tp@mccall.com (Terry Poot)
Distribution: usa
Organization: The McCall Pattern Co., Manhattan, KS, USA
Nntp-Posting-User: tp


In article <18DEC199210275598@rover.uchicago.edu>, frank@rover.uchicago.edu
(Frank - Hardware Hacker - Borger) writes:
>In article <1992Dec17.160250@mccall.com>, tp@mccall.com (Terry Poot) writes...
>>.....
>>Sounds like you need more conferences. Proper use of conferences and subject
>>lines should allow you to easily select the issues you are familiar with. ...
>
>	You miss my point. With DCS, I as the sender make one decision on
>	who should read the message.

I'm not suggesting email be prohibited. If you want to discuss something
privately with a specific person, use mail

>                                     With NOTES, everybody who happens to
>	read NOTES would have to access that conference and actively decide
>	if they wanted to read that note.

(Preface: I've only used notes at symposia, so forgive me if I mis-remember how
it works. I have used the original notes program that VAXnotes was cribbed from,
but I don't know how similar they are anymore.)

First, everyone who uses notes will have already decided which conferences they
want to read (of course, they can change that list at any time), so you have
already limited your audience to those who are interested in the general topic
area. From there, they simply look at all the subject lines and read those
things that seem of interest. This isn't terribly hard or inconvenient. Of
course, it only makes sense to post something of potential interest to people
interested in that topic area. If you specifically want to reach 3 specific
people, and nobody else, you use email. However, policy shouldn't be arrived at
that way.

>	Also, Notes doesn't auto-forward. My DCS mail is automagically forwarded
>	to my VAX mail account here. I don't have to pour thru 40-odd news
>	groups to glean 3 or 4 really pertinent messagews.

I don't know about notes but news can be easily forwarded to a user's home
machine. If the news-notes gateway is properly robust, it can even be used to
forward to a remote notes system, and vice-versa. This has been done
successfully with the UIUC notes software from which VAXnotes is derived in
concept, if not in code.

>>No. But then I might not read a conference devoted to symposia, and probably
>>wouldn't read an article entitled:
>> 
>>Deadline for DECUS store for Spring '93 symposium
>
>	But what if you read the same note/article in alt.decus.symposia, 
>	alt.decus.store, alt.decus.DAARC, alt.decus.L&T, alt.decus.VAX,
>	alt.decus. .... (well you get the idea.) DCS handles the equivalent
>	of cross-posting to multiple groups much better. I 1 message, not N.

Then you should complain to the maintainer of your news software, because it is
broken. Any modern news software will show you a given article exactly once, no
matter how many groups it is posted to. Have you actually used news? What
software do you use? I don't know of one that gets this wrong, on unix or VMS.

>>And the "open" ones are only open to those with DCS access.
>> 
>	And to ones on DECUServe.

Don Roberts refutes this. I'm not on either, so I'll have to let you argue it
out. But his statement corresponds with the impression I've gotten from others,
and yours doesn't.

>	Actually, NOTES is much better than Ness in one respect. Instead of
>	Subject lines and "In response to... types. when you have an entirely
>	new topic, you start a new stream of notes with note nn.0 Subsequent
>	RESPONSES to the seed note are entered as nn.1, nn.2, etc.

Yes, many people prefer that interface. Given sufficient gateways, nobody should
have to choose. 

>	So When I read a notes stream, I get things all new notes presented
>	to me sorted by topic AND IN CORRECT CHRONOLIGICAL ORDER. You ob-
>	jected to mail coming in in chronological order. How many times have
>	you seen news postings where the response to one note appears before
>	the original item at your location because of posting delays? Does
>	it screw up the sense of the note? For me it dose.

For me it isn't a big problem. For one thing, the problem isn't as bad as it
used to be, with a large and extremely fast internet backbone. But if a response
comes in and I haven't yet seen what it refers to, and if I can't figure it out
from there, I simply mark the article as unread and come back to it later when
the preceding one has arrived. My newsreader presents them right next to each
other, of course, so I just read the later one first.

BTW, on unix there are threaded news readers that reportedly will reorder
articles into the proper sequence, and will even track branching conversations
properly (keeping the branches separate so you can read one at a time). They do
this using only the data in the news articles. So notes isn't even inherently
smarter. Threaded newsreaders beat out notes in the area where notes is always
touted as being superior. (I haven't used one of these, so this is all
hearsay.)

>>A properly fine-tuned hierarchy can successfully trade off number of groups
>>with the amount of traffic in each group. 
>
>	Show me a well tuned newsgroup on the net, and I will agree with you.

Those of us who use VMSnet think it's OK. The reason altnet and usenet are such
gawdawful messes is that there is no mangement. Historical mistakes are never
corrected. On VMSnet, we move things around as it makes sense to us. One reason
VMSnet is considered successful, btw, is that all decisions are made in the
open, right on VMSnet, open to anyone who cares to read vmsnet.admin, and not by
a committee that doesn't solicit input from users. I've even had users request
that I solicit less input and just do things, because they trusted me to do the
right thing. I daresay that hasn't happened to many of the leadership of DECUS.

>>email can always be used to talk to a limited number of people, 
>
>	Correct. That's what DCS is best at. Steering committee level etc.

But decisions shouldn't be made that way. Everyone involved with the group that
that steering committee steers should have the opportunity to comment on the
issues affecing the group. That doesn't mean that you turn over control, it
means you discuss everything on a newsgroup or notes conference so those who are
interested can express their opinions. But the steering committee makes the
decisions. However, after all the dialog goes by, they'll be making more
informed decisions.

>>but decisions made in email are by definition closed.
>
>	Well, my favorite sig works that way. The steering committee makes
>	the decisions. They are closed in the sense that everbody and their
>	uncle on the Net doesn't get to vote, however the decisions are (by
>	my definition,) still open if the RESULTS are posted to an open
>	NOTES conference.

This is generally referred to, I think, as management by fiat. Most management
and/or quality analysts out there are saying that this is the worst way to do
things. There's nothing open about a decision made be a small number of people
and then presented as a fait accompli to those affected by the decision. 

>	Although DCS and DECUServe are on different processors, both are
>	accessible from the DECUServe end. To preclude giving everyone with
>	a DCS account free DECUServe access, (with no connect costs,) those
>	with DCS accounts can only access the limited DCS notes conference.
>	However anyone on DECUServe can access any of the DCS conferences,
>	provided that they are not closed.

The theory sounds OK, but again, according to Don Roberts' posting, it sounds
like only some of the open DCS conferences are available on DECUServe.

>>The whole point of notes and news is to help manage a large base of
>>>information. In my estimation, news at least (don't know about notes) does a
>>>pretty good job of this. 
>
>	I use both. IMHO Notes does a much better job because it does a better
>	job of sorting various conversation threads, mainly because I can start
>	a new thread, (equivalent to creating vms.xxx.pdp11.IAS) without having
>	to go to the gods of the net and beseach them to start it for me.

A newsgroup is equivalent to a conference, not a conversation thread.
Conversation threads are generally identified by subject line in most
newsreaders, or using a combination of subject line, attribution lines and the
makes me think that you've never used a decent news reader. A good news reader
will present articles grouped by subject, and will only show you an article once
no matter how many groups it is posted to.

BTW, it would probably take a week to a week and a half to create
vmsnet.pdp-11.ias, assuming that there was sufficient interest to justify doing
so. Do you create new conferences on DCS so rapidly that this would be a
problem? Of course, usenet is a whole different ballgame, but then, I'd never
suggest submitting DECUS newsgroups to the control of a disinterested community
by placing them in usenet or altnet. 

Please understand the distinction between news and usenet. The former is a
software and communications technology, the latter is a particular application
of that technology. Basically the same as the relationship between VAXnotes and
DECUServe.
--
Terry Poot <tp@mccall.com>                   The McCall Pattern Company
(uucp: ...!rutgers!depot!mccall!tp)          615 McCall Road
(800)255-2762, in KS (913)776-4041           Manhattan, KS 66502, USA
Newsgroups: comp.org.decus