HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: barry@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca (Barry G. Adams)
Subject: Applying for jobs
Keywords: jobs, math, AMS Notices
Organization: Dept. of Computer Science, Laurentian University, Sudbury, ON
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 19:05:41 GMT

The latest Notices of the AMS (July/August 92) has a short article
called <<Applying for Jobs: Advice from the Front>> by Annalisa
Crannell that might be useful.  There is also a list of references.

Barry Adams (barry@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca)
From: kaminsky-david@CS.YALE.EDU (David Kaminsky)
Subject: Jobs and politics
Organization: Yale University Computer Science Dept., New Haven, CT 06520-2158
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 18:52:13 GMT


mkh@pacific.uucp (michael hamilton) writes:
>    Vote Clinton and Gore.  Here are the jobs.


	My first reaction is to explain that Gore is
really a nitwit who picks issues that smell good today
without having any clue about the science that underlies
them.  I'll resist :-).  Please keep political chatter
to the politics newsgroups.

David


Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: maniattb@cs.rpi.edu (Bill Maniatty)
Subject: Re: Interview Experiences?
Distribution: world, local
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 19:29:02 GMT

In article <1992Jul27.120921.4314@bb1t.monsanto.com>, tjfeue@bb1t.monsanto.com writes:
|> In article <1992Jul26.051430.1083@cco.caltech.edu>, peri@cco.caltech.edu (Michal Leah Peri) writes:
|> > maniattb@cs.rpi.edu (Bill Maniatty) writes:
|> > 
|> >>Some things to try to avoid are talking about money too early in the interview
|> >>process (almost never on the first interview), 
|> 
|> Absolutly...  Always try to  1) put money discussions to the very last
|> and 2) try to get them to make the offer.  If you want to get an idea
|> of what they are thinking, ask about the salary range for the position.
[Lots of good stuff deleted]

Just an aside, if the salary your looking for is nearer to the top of the salary
range, you could top out your salary range in a year or two and get stuck.
It is better to come in at the low end of a higher salary range, as the Job
experience is generally better, and room for advancement is greater.

Bill

-- 
|
|	maniattb@cs.rpi.edu - in real life Bill Maniatty
|
From: moore@theory.chem.ubc.ca (Brian Moore)
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
Subject: Re: Interview Experiences?
Keywords: interview, acadmics, industry
Date: 22 Jul 92 17:45:40 GMT
Distribution: world,local
Organization: University of British Columbia, Vancouver, B.C., Canada

In article <22JUL199211242595@vtcc1.cc.vt.edu> merolajs@vtcc1.cc.vt.edu (JOSEPH S. MEROLA DEPT OF CHEMISTRY VPI&SU) writes:

>... For the last position
>we filled (this year) some 30-40 of those applications came from people
>who responed to an ad without really reading it:  they were not in the
>proper area.  ...

This really drives me crazy when I hear people say this over and over.
Really, does it not occur to anyone that most people 
don't respond to such ads unless they have exhausted *all possible
avenues* in the exact area of their specialty?  I suppose you could
argue that there are better ways of going about it once you've reached
that point (I'd be interested to hear ideas--short of just giving
up).

--
Brian Moore
Chemistry Dept.  University of British Columbia  moore@theory.chem.ubc.ca
From: duggan@cc.gatech.edu (Rick Duggan)
Subject: Re: An open letter to Joseph
Organization: College of Computing
Distribution: world, local
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 04:38:29 GMT

In article <MCINTOSH.92Jul21201321@helena.rice.edu> mcintosh@rice.edu (Nathaniel McIntosh) writes:
>In article <1992Jul21.232132.25772@news.acns.nwu.edu> drt@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Robert Toreki) writes:
>|>  I just received a phone call from Joseph Dunphy in which he
>|> threatened to sue me for libel in a most bellicose manner.
>|> ...
>
>This brings up an interesting legal question. The word 'slander'
>refers only to speech, 'libel' only to the printed word. A newsgroup,
>however, doesn't exactly fall into the category of the "printed word".
>Can we even apply the word 'libel' at all?

I just checked my Webster Encyclopedia: One Volume Edition, and
it states that libel is "a false and malicious statement in writing
or other durable form (such as on film), tending to injure the
reputation of a living person ...In US law the truth of the statement
creates a valid defense in an action for libel."

I would venture to say that the network would probably be considered
a durable form.  Most sites have automatic expiration of articles,
but they are usually available for at least a few days.

-rick

"Random acts of violence just don't do it for me anymore.  It must be
 maturity." - Cactus Jack WCW Saturday Night 07/04/92
Rick Duggan | duggan@cc.gatech.edu | CS1410 TA - Section A
Office Hours (CC 103): Tue 1:30-3:00 Thu 1:30-2:30
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Date: Tuesday, 21 Jul 1992 02:07:09 CDT
From: <U53644@uicvm.uic.edu>
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
Subject: Re: What kind of support do grad students in different fields get?
 <1992Jul20.132611.11952@ncsu.edu>

My general impression has been that Electrical Engineering Departments don't
have a lot of teaching assistantships, but far more research assistantships
than most other departments. Again the reasons are obvious : Math has a large
number of non-Math students taking lower level courses, allowing for more
Teaching assistantships. Industry often asks for help in R & D from the
universities (hence the RA-ships). (BTW, if anyone asks you to drain a
capacitor - YOU SAY NO. You don't want to know what might be in that fluid).
Arguably, the EE students are getting a better deal (it's like getting paid to
do your homework).

Major caveat - in Math departments, there often aren't enough undergrads to go
around (Indiana was unusual in having a bumper crop). "Enough" means a large
enough number for almost all of the grads to get support. Class sizes can get
rather large, and you might need more than you might think. If you do get one,
though, a $5 - 6 thousand/yr. stipend + fee waiver is typical. Some schools in
Texas went noticably higher than that, but they might have to cut back on
support now.

                                                Joseph B. Dunphy
From: tjfeue@bb1t.monsanto.com
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
Subject: Bad children, no career!
Date: 22 Jul 92 19:41:14 GMT
Article-I.D.: bb1t.1992Jul22.134114.4301
Organization: Monsanto Company, St. Louis, MO

Boy, was I excited when this newsgroup first appeared...  Now I'm sick
and tired and disgusted.  If spoiled, whining children is all that
our grad schools can turn out now, I'll surely not hire any of them!
You'll never *HAVE* a career until you grow up and that doesn't seem
likely for most of you in the near future.  Yup, give me a mature 
undergrad that I can train.  I often look to the net for prospects to
pass on to our recruiter...  This newsgroup is the *LAST* place I'd
look for candidates!  If you waste bandwidth like this, I can imagine
what you'd do to research money. 

  TED FEUERBACH   Scientific Systems Consultant  Trilogy Consulting, Inc. 
  Lake St. Louis, MO        (314) 537-6603       tjfeue@bb1t.monsanto.com
  Disclaimer:  The opinions expressed herein are MY OWN and obviously not
  the opinions of Trilogy, Monsanto or either of my two ex-wives.
From: jtien@venice.eng.uci.edu (Joe Tien)
Subject: Re: Interview Experiences?
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
Reply-To: jtien@venice.eng.uci.edu (Joe Tien)
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Distribution: world, local
Date: 24 Jul 92 17:01:15 GMT

In article <pptx7x=@rpi.edu>, maniattb@cs.rpi.edu (Bill Maniatty) writes:
|> 
|> Some things to try to avoid are talking about money too early in the interview
|> process (almost never on the first interview), disclosing your current salary,
|> your marital plans/status (employers may overlook you if you are perceived as
|> being on the ``mommy track'' and single men are viewed as willing to work longer
|> hours, and are sometimes preferred over married men), and any plans you have
|> for further education (many places do NOT want you to pursue higher education
|> even on your own time and out of your own pocket - some employers feel that you
|> will move on, or command a higher salary with the training, so they block it).
|> 

That's a very interesting point about pursuing higher education. I wonder how
such perception change with different company size and level of education of 
the candidate (ie, if they think an MS is enough and don't want anyone to go for
a PhD, etc)

Any comments on that?

Joe Tien
From: england@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (julie england)
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
Subject: Re: NO MORE %$#@* E-MAIL ABOUT THE JOB SITUATION
Date: 21 Jul 92 21:43:43 GMT
Organization: Indiana University

In article <1992Jul21.160130.20027@cc.gatech.edu> duggan@cc.gatech.edu (Rick Duggan) writes:

(bunches of stuff deleted)

I think that Joseph was originally trying to make the point that
if you are _expecting_ to be able to pursue a research or academic
career, the chances are quite slim.  Perhaps the conflicts in recent
discussions have arisen due to the misunderstanding or over-
generalization of "science" careers, which are dependent upon
the specific field you are in.  Then again, I may be way off-base.

I think nit-picky points from everyone about what exactly was said
or not said, who is or is not lying, etc. are irrelevant. Personally,
I appreciate someone telling me that I'd better know exactly what 
I want and what my chances are before I blindly go into graduate
school expecting to land the job (career) of my dreams after I get
my degree.  If I should adjust my career goals, I want to know about
that.

I also _very much_ appreciate the posts from Rob which say that 
you shouldn't give up all hope.  These comments are just as
insightful and necessary.

>You are not welcome here, sir.  Finally, your diatribes have outweighed
>your useful postings.

Flaming and personal attacks are usually not welcome anywhere, from
anyone, either, but lets not be too quick to banish people who may
have something usueful to say.  I have learned a few things from 
following this discussion.

Just my $.02.  Followups to alt.flame? ;)

Julie
-- 
*-------------------------------------**-------------------------------------*
| Julie England, Database Coordinator || Workshop in Political Theory and    |
| england@silver.ucs.indiana.edu      || Policy Analysis, Indiana University |
*-------------------------------------**-------------------------------------*
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: moore@theory.chem.ubc.ca (Brian Moore)
Subject: what to do?
Organization: University of British Columbia, Vancouver, B.C., Canada
Distribution: na
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1992 00:57:27 GMT

Well, I agree that arguing about whether it was worse in the 70's
than now is pointless.  But calling us all 'bad children' and 
'whiners' is hardly productive either.

Let's suppose that it was as bad (or worse) then.  The obvious
corollary of this is that the people of that generation who went
through it must have some very illuminating experiences to share.
Are there any people who went through this previous bad job market for 
scientists who have any helpful comments about how to get through
the current situation?

For example, if you had to make a major career move, how did you go
about it?  For those who stuck it out in their chosen fields, how
did that go?  Were you indeed able to remain in a 'holding pattern'
in a post-doc or other less-than-optimal job until things got
better?  When things did get better for academic jobs in science 
(I don't know when this was, exactly), how did you fare trying to
find a job--were the more recent grads able to find a job easier
than you because you were 'damaged goods?'

Perhaps most importantly, what about general philosophy--did you
feel like you held on too long to the thing you really wanted to do,
or bailed out too early?  What advice would you give to the current
generation of recent grads. trying to find jobs--should we get out
now, and try to do something more saleable than science, or was
it worth it to try and stick it out?

I know that I won't get through the current situation without a lot
of help, and I'm asking for that help. 

--
Brian Moore
Chemistry Department, University of British Columbia  
moore@theory.chem.ubc.ca
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Date: Tuesday, 21 Jul 1992 15:07:09 CDT
From: <U53644@uicvm.uic.edu>
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
Subject: Re: I don't get references for those who don't check them
 <YAMAUCHI.92Jul20234533@cyan.cs.rochester.edu>

Actually, Brian, the papers of late have been carrying stories asking about
what haapened to that shortage, in light of all of the recent graduates who
haven't been getting work. The New York Times did an article on that very
recently. You might try reading something that has been published recently, or
you might try reading the whole sentences present, not just the parts you'd
like to see.

ALSO NOTE : As I'll apparently have to say until I'm blue in the face to get
through to idiots like you,

        THE JOB SHORTAGE I REFERRED TO WAS ONE IN THE PURE SCIENCES.
        COMPUTER SCIENCE IS NOT ONE OF THEM. I SAID SO IN MY POSTS.
        ONE OF THE SPECIFIC REMEDIES I RECOMMENDED WAS TO TAKE COURSES
        IN APPLIED AERAS.

        WHAT AM I SUPPOSED TO DO WHEN SOMEONE IS TOO GOD DAMN STUPID TO
        READ WHAT I ACTUALLY POSTED BEFORE COMMENTING ON IT ?

Does anyone wonder why I'm not bothering to do that library search. As Brian
here has just beautifully proven, if you post a reference, noone who asks for
them seems willing to bother looking them up before responding.

But, to give the full quote by that local radio announcer (Roe Conn on WLS),

      "Stupid people will do stupid things, and will die in stupid
       ways."

I.e. Some people choose to be idiots, and you should just accept that. If
     someone is dumb enough to go bungee jumping, or for that matter, try
     to enter the job market without the skills demanded because they
     couldn't hold back from having idiotic knee jerk reactions long enough
     to hear anyone say anything, don't worry about it. What happens to them
     is not your problem, and they really don't deserve any better than they
     get. If you people can't be reasoned with, go with God. I don't care.

Those of you who can be, and sent more reasonable responses (and actually
bothered to read what I was saying BEFORE commenting on it) - Thanks.
Your kind words and support were truly appreciated.

As for the rest of you - I take time out of a frighteningly busy schedule
to post some words of advice (mainly about what you CAN do to get work),
so that you wouldn't have to learn these things the hard way, like I did.
I put my own projects behind schedule doing so. And how am I repayed for this ?
I get my reader filled with abusive letters from people who simply parroted
anything Robert Toreki of Northwestern had to say, and refused to even check
when I indicated that what I had actually said had been misrepresented.

Fine. No problem.

                                         Joseph B. Dunphy



PS, whoever feels like continuing to be this way, please put me in your
    kill file. A businessman who was interviewing me for a job once
    confessed to me that he found a lot of my colleagues to be, as he put it
    "a royal pain in the ass". I was upset then. I'm understanding now.
From: otten@icase.edu (John Otten)
Subject: Re: An open letter to Joseph
Organization: ICASE/NASA Langley
Distribution: world, local
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 12:43:51 GMT

In article <1992Jul22.043829.27937@cc.gatech.edu>, duggan@cc.gatech.edu (Rick Duggan) writes:
>In article <MCINTOSH.92Jul21201321@helena.rice.edu> mcintosh@rice.edu (Nathaniel McIntosh) writes:
>>In article <1992Jul21.232132.25772@news.acns.nwu.edu> drt@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Robert Toreki) writes:
>>|>  I just received a phone call from Joseph Dunphy in which he
>>|> threatened to sue me for libel in a most bellicose manner.
>>|> ...
>>
>>This brings up an interesting legal question. The word 'slander'
>>refers only to speech, 'libel' only to the printed word. A newsgroup,
>>however, doesn't exactly fall into the category of the "printed word".
>>Can we even apply the word 'libel' at all?
>
>I just checked my Webster Encyclopedia: One Volume Edition, and
>it states that libel is "a false and malicious statement in writing
>or other durable form (such as on film), tending to injure the
>reputation of a living person ...In US law the truth of the statement
>creates a valid defense in an action for libel."

I am not sure (I am NOT a Lawyer :-), but I think that the plaintiff must prove that
injury was actually done AND that the statements were actually INTENDED to do injury
in order to win a libel suit.

I could ask my girlfriend (who *IS* a Lawyer, and a clerk on the Va. Court of Appeals),
but this whole thing is too silly, and I have better things to talk to her about...

John
otten@icase.edu
From: twc@svcs1.UUCP (Ted Chan)
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
Subject: Re: Interview Experiences?
Date: 26 Jul 92 00:29:26 GMT
Distribution: world, local
Organization: Silicon Valley Computer Society, Sunnyvale, CA

From article <1992Jul24.170406.10543@colorado.edu>, by ejh@khonshu.colorado.edu (Edward J. Hartnett):
> In article <1992Jul24.020955.29781@cco.caltech.edu> jeffp@cco.caltech.edu (Jeffrey E. Prisbrey) writes:
>>This sounds trivial, I know, but:
>>
>>A curriculum vita is usually pretty long.  I have been told that this
>>can be a problem, that people in the real world (tm) don't like
>>resumes longer than a page.
>>
>>Some of the people here have experience hiring -- what are your veiws
>>on resume length?
>>
>>thanks,
>>
>>jeffp
>>.
> 
> 
> I have my resume on one page, it's pretty crowded, so I had to drop off
> one job, but I figure it's better to get it on one page. Then I have another
> page with publications attachted with a paper clip. In America I think it's

This is precisely the right format.  Where publications are nontrivial,
these should be noted on a separate page.  I work in a research and
development firm.  We usually have a series of interviews or a gang
interview.  Long winded resumes are viewed with great skepticism because
thet raise the spectre of "resume padding" to cover a lack of relevant
experience.

A short resumes is effective if it is conveys relevant experience but
also piques the reviewer's interest enough to wish to interview the
job candidate.  So the rule is to be concise, but not to leave out
the important details, i.e. major wins...   

Also, due to the ubiquity of computers and laser printers, it is imperative
that the resume look "professionally" published.  The document should also
be spell-checked and grammar-checked.  Bad communication skills definitely
leave a SERIOUS negative impression.  In the commercial R&D industry, you'll
eventually have to transfer your technology to someone else, so do remember
to keep those English skills sharp, even if you happen to be an immigrant...

--twc@legal.uucp (immigrant and proud of it)

**************************************************************************
*  I have found a truly wonderful proof which  *  UCB Mathematics 1983   *
*  this margin is too narrow to contain.       *  Standard Disclaimer(s) *
**************************************************************************
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From: bwood@diva.Berkeley.EDU (Blake Philip Wood)
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
Subject: Resume length (was: Interview Experiences?)
Keywords: Resumes
Date: 24 Jul 92 13:41:44 GMT
Distribution: world, local
Organization: /etc/organizaton
NNTP-Posting-Host: diva.berkeley.edu

In article <1992Jul24.020955.29781@cco.caltech.edu> jeffp@cco.caltech.edu (Jeffrey E. Prisbrey) writes:

>A curriculum vita is usually pretty long.  I have been told that this
>can be a problem, that people in the real world (tm) don't like
>resumes longer than a page.

Keeping it to one page is probably important in non-technical fields,
less so at the technical Bachelors level, and not expected at all
at the Ph.D level.  However, even at the Ph.D level, it looks bad
to list every insignificant job you ever held.  At any level, if you
have two pages worth of good technical work, by all means make your
CV or resume two pages long!


-- 
                 Blake P. Wood - bpw@ctxsys.lanl.gov (505) 665-6524
                 Group P-1, MS-E526, LANL, Los Alamos, NM  87545
From: jtien@venice.eng.uci.edu (Joe Tien)
Subject: Re: Interview Experiences?
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
Reply-To: jtien@venice.eng.uci.edu (Joe Tien)
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Distribution: world, local
Date: 28 Jul 92 01:00:59 GMT

In article <!kyxwml@rpi.edu>, maniattb@cs.rpi.edu (Bill Maniatty) writes:
|> In article <1992Jul27.120921.4314@bb1t.monsanto.com>, tjfeue@bb1t.monsanto.com writes:
|> 
|> Just an aside, if the salary your looking for is nearer to the top of the salary
|> range, you could top out your salary range in a year or two and get stuck.
|> It is better to come in at the low end of a higher salary range, as the Job
|> experience is generally better, and room for advancement is greater.
|> 

Just one thing, how do you know which end of the salary range you are in? Seems 
to me the company wouldn't want to have that kind of information floating around
since employees may start comparing salaries.

Joe Tien
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: peri@cco.caltech.edu (Michal Leah Peri)
Subject: Re: Interview Experiences?
Keywords: Resumes
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Distribution: world, local
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 01:22:59 GMT

crawford@church.mitre.org (Randy Crawford) writes:

>I suspect most people never really 'read' a resume.

Unfortunately, this seems to be true of most resume writers as well.
Before you send out yours run it through the spell checker *twice*,
have your mom (or someone else competent) read it for grammer errors,
put it down for 24 hours, and then check it *thoroughly* again!

						--  Michal

Newsgroups: sci.research.careers