From: Babak Mohajerin <B.MOHAJERIN@qut.edu.au>
Newsgroups: soc.religion.islam
Subject: Re:  Qur'an, Bible and crucifixion
Date: 19 Nov 1992 01:04:58 GMT
Organization: MIT Artificial Intelligence Lab
Reply-To: Babak Mohajerin <B.MOHAJERIN@qut.edu.au>
NNTP-Posting-Host: spiff.gnu.ai.mit.edu
 7:38 am
Originator: gwydion@spiff.gnu.ai.mit.edu

> babak@orac.crissp.qut.edu.au (Babak Mohajerin) writes:
> 
> >1) The Islamic experts show no general agreement on this account
> ...........
> >These are the out right leaders in the Schools of Islamic Though and Theology
> >and fail to come with a uniform or agreeable account of the event.
> 
 nabeel@sce.carleton.ca (Nabeel Ghuzlaan) replies:
>    The name of the person has no significance and most probably those
> commentators got it from Israelite stories, so in no way has this
> anything to do with Islam's position.
> 

If you tend to justify the matter as far as the history is concerned
then you are bound to face with some problems. These narrative discripencies is
one reason. Why is it the case that the out right leaders in the
Schools of Islamic Though and Theology fail to come with a uniform or
agreeable account of the event? How can you establish an Islamic
position if you tend to ignore the descripencies amongst Its scholars?

> >2) On the other hand there are other scholars who have pictured the event 
> >in accordance with the Bible:
> 
>    This is unlikely, because it is common sense that souls can not be
> crucified and I do not think that anyone claimed to have crucified
> Jesus' (PBUH) soul.
> 
Well I can not agree most. However, this is the path that some of the
scholars have taken to harmonise the account and you may refer your
comments to them. By the way, Mulla Mohsen Fayz Kashani is one of the 
most outright leader and scholors of Shi'et Islam. 
(of course you know that).

Please consider these points:
1) Where else in Qur'an talks about the likeness shown? It only
appears in 4/155.
2) Qur'an talks about the story of many biblical and non-biblical
prophets. What happened to Jesus after  the likeness was shown?
There is nothing about it. It is a silent subject or non-existant one.
3) Do you find any other part of Qur'an that supports the literal
interpretation of 4/155? the answer is NO.
4) How did Jesus die? according to Qur'an we do not know? No Holy
Qua'an does not mention anything after that.
5) All of these problem occur if 4/155 is taken literal.
6) Jesus ascended to Heaven. (see my previous notes for the reference). He
is expected to return at the promised time. Historically, it was
assumed that he will return not as a dead but alive because he was never
killed or crucified and I showed here that he like anyone else
surley must have died. So the argument of second return as a support
for literal interpretation of 4/155 is not a valid one. Because this
will strongly contradict with the cocept of "ku'llo naf-sen
tha'e-ghatal mout" (Every body will surely die). If He is still alive
and continue to live after the Judgement Day.

>Do they mention that it already happened? According to Sahih
>Hadiths and some interpretations of Koran, Jesus is coming back, 
>so if you take God's word not to raise the dead before the Judgement 
>day, he has to be still alive.

I am offering you an example:
well let's have a close look. Elija was the promised one of the Jews
to return before Messiah: "I will send you the prophet Elija" (Malch 3:3)
in Matthew 11:14 Jesus clearly mentions that Elija was John the
Baptist."He is the Elija who was to come". But when they asked John
the Baptist if he is the Elija he said "I am not" (John 1:27)
In one instance Jesus says he was the Elija (in spirit and divine
potency) and in the other instance John the Baptist himself says that
he is not the Elija (in phyysical bodily sense). There is no
contradiction or ambiguity here. Please think about it. The "returned"
Elija of the New Testament was not the same bodily Elija of the Old
Testament.

> >5) From the Writings of the Baha'i Faith:
> >[Baha'i Faith is a World Religion, came to its existence some 150 years
> >ago. Some of the Baha'is teachings include the oneness of mankind, 
> >unity of God, religion as a source of unity and harmony and harmony 
> >between religion, science, and reason. Baha'i Faith is the only 
> >independent religion which acknowledges the divinity of 
> >Qur'an and that of Islam]
> 
> >      The crucifixion as recounted in the New Testament is correct.
> >      The meaning of the Qur'anic version is that the spirit of Christ
> >      was not Crucified.  There is no conflict between the two.
> >      (From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an
> >       individual believer, July 14, 1943, quoted in Lights of
> >       Guidance, Second edition, p. 491)
> 

This is my main assumption that Qur'an is all pure word of God.
However, assumption of 4/155 can not be taken literal. (You can not
take everything literally in Qur'an, such as creation in 7 days,..
because of its conflict with external evidences. So because Qur'an is %100
correct and Jesus was crusified (or killed by the Jews and we know
that from the history) therefore we
have to suspend the liteal meaning of 4/155 in favour of a harmonizing
solution. And my solution was what FAYZ KASHANEE sugested long time ago that
the reality of Jesus was not crucified. That is, His cause, His
revelation and His Gospel (good news) was not perished. You thought
FAYZ says His spirit was not crucified. that was what he ment by
spirit, not His "Rooh". By the revelation and spirit I ment the
spriritual spiring time which came about by the appearence of Jesus.
The spiritual regeneration of mankind by lending their ears to the
sweet sented melodies of the All-Merciful calling uopn them from His
heaven of eternity. I ment the revitalisation of the laws and moral
teachings of God till the coming of the Rasul'u'llah. This is what I
ment.

>Despite that Bahaism is not recognised in Islam, the style of
>interpretation of Bahaism resembles those of Ahmadis and Xians 
>and is very far from the style of Koranic interpretations. 

Not worth commenting

with regards
-- 
     Babak Mohajerin,

Queensland University of Technology,
        AUSTRALIA

B.MOHAJERIN@qut.edu.au
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