HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: dvandom@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Dave Van Domelen)
Subject: JLA #72
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 03:03:15 GMT

Okay, after a rereading, here's the theory.

Doctor Dee, er, Destiny, dreams this issue.  But, due to one thing and another 
and having be in possession of Morpheus's gem for so long, this dream has a 
reality of its own, and the fascist JLA gets out and needs to be fought by the 
current team (the fight is mentioned in the recent Direct Currents).  Dr. Dee 
is using the JLA as they existed at the height of his career, since his grasp 
on reality has been rather tenuous since then.
     If you need to look for an equivalent story, I direct you to one of the 
old Sinkiewicz drawn FFs, where a child with massive powers creates evil energy
doubles of the FF.  In this case, the dreamer of the dream of death is capable 
to ascribing more than feverish hatred to his creations, and they become a 
Squadron Supreme/Justice Machine group, more subtly evil for all that they 
believe they are good.
     Now, one thing I don't know which might be the last piece of the puzzle 
needed is how Doctor Destiny got all mangled.  When he appeared in Sandman he 
was already crispy (yeah, that's the one issue of Sandman I have, what a 
coincidence).  If he was burnt as a result of the JLA accidentally overdoing 
his capture, that would explain why he thinks of them as fascists who will stop
at nothing to stomp out all supervillains, even if it means being worse than 
the villains they fight.  His exaggerated feelings toward the JLA would make 
them more vicious and more powerful than they really were, and allow them to do
patently impossible things (for them) like hurting Sinestro with a mere mace.
     One problem was that the lettercol was from *last* issue, and the preview 
blurb wasn't changed.
     Still and all, it was a great feeling to see something like this done 
without a big buildup and announcements about "Coming Soon!  The Dark'n'Gritty 
(tm) JLA like you've never seen them before!".  No big hype, just a story that 
makes you wonder where the last 50 issues you missed went to lead up to this 
one.  It's a device that can be clumsily done (as in X-Men with the 
introduction of Genosha), but this time it was well done, as the intention was 
to put the reader off balance.
     Dave Van Domelen, the radio is playing Jimmy Olsen Blues again....
Newsgroups: rec.arts.comics.misc
From: silbrmnd@acf3.nyu.edu (Darkmage)
Subject: Re: Sandman -- Brief Lives 7
Organization: New York University
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1993 07:16:17 GMT

morrow@fnalo.fnal.gov (Elmo the Stunt Elk) writes:

>	Another question:  Destruction expected Death and Delirium to show
>up earlier.  I infer from this that something therefore delayed them, but
>I couldn't identify any event in the sequence that led them to Destruction
>which did not follow exactly from the previous event.
>	I suppose Destruction might not be all that prescient, but it
>struck me oddly nonetheless.
>

I think it was more like, once Del and Morph started looking,
Destruction thought they'd find him a *lot* sooner, like we did.  :)
But then again, we had a few more hints than they did...

		-Darkmage

-- 
>"Once a boy becomes a man, he's a man all his life, but a woman is only
>sexy 'til she becomes your wife."--Al Bundy
>  
>elmo (morrow@physics.rice.edu,morrow@fnal.fnal.gov)
--
"And whut-- ah say...  Whut are _YOU_ALL_ goin' t' be doin'?"

"I...?  I shall stand around looking... moody.  And feeling...
 sorry for myself."
Newsgroups: rec.arts.comics.misc
Subject: Re: Anybody likes PITT? Youngblood?
From: <CM26ACCW@MIAMIU.BITNET>
Date: Tuesday, 26 Jan 1993 13:50:55 EST
Organization: Miami University - Academic Computer Service

Not that Dale's idea was spectacular but the inside cover
does say that he isn't responsible for the writing.
It lists a writer.
From: ejs16@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Eric Jaron Stieglitz)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.comics.misc
Subject: Re: Rec.arts.comics.vertigo
Date: 26 Jan 93 21:55:27 GMT
Reply-To: ejs16@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Eric Jaron Stieglitz)
Organization: Me, Myself, and I

In article <1993Jan26.202555.26060@wam.umd.edu> lecuyer@wam.umd.edu (Catherine L. LeCuyer) writes:
>
>Using  r.a.c.vertigo  is the only fair way of limiting what gets
>posted of the newsgroup. Otherwise you'd have a big fight over what
>is "mature". I think someone has already brought this up. It seems
>to me that what the Vertigo titles have in common besides the "mature"
>label is that they are about the supernatural rather than the superheroic.
>Maybe that should be the designation? r.a.c.supernatural? It would 
>allow comics like Spector, DR.S, and Mage (if we ever see it) to be
>discussed also.

Keep in mind that Marvel's "Midnight Son's" line is supposed to be 
supernatural. I have a feeling that many of the Sandman people would not 
appreciate having "Ghost Rider" in their heirarchy.

---
Eric Jaron Stieglitz   ejs16@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu
School: (212) 853-6883 
Home:   (401) 421-7479
Newsgroups: rec.arts.comics.misc
From: silbrmnd@acf3.nyu.edu (Darkmage)
Subject: Re: The Slightly Annotated Death #1
Organization: New York University
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 19:42:49 GMT

ROWJOSP@YaleVM.YCC.Yale.Edu writes:

>This is rather obvious, but no one else has mentioned it:
> 
>The opening of _Death_ #1 makes a rather nice contrast to Death's
>first appearance, in _Sandman_#8: the business about pigeons and
>St. Paul's is reminiscent of "Mary Poppins", but Mad Hettie is not
>the benign Bird Woman asking for "tuppence a bag"!
> 
>By the way, Sandman #8 took place in New York too; do you think
>Death has a particular prediliction for NYC, or does she just
>spend a lot of time there? :-)
>
Well, in Sandman #8 Death was in the Village; maybe she just feels more
at home, here.  Her look fits in better.  :)  (I'm sitting in the
computer lab accross from someone who looks like a Death wannabe, only
paler)  *8-)

			-Darkmage
 
>Yours, Si Rowe
>______________________________________________________________________
>"I think twinkle's a nice word. So's viridian. I once knew a lady
>   who had an imaginary fish."             --Delirium
> 
>"I'm on Aslan's side even if there isn't any Aslan to lead it. I'm
>going to live like a Narnian as I can even if there isn't any Narnia."
>                                           --Puddleglum the Marsh-wiggle
>                                            _The Silver Chair_ by C.S. Lewis
>email at: rowjosp.@yalevm.ycc.yale.edu
--
"And whut-- ah say...  Whut are _YOU_ALL_ goin' t' be doin'?"

"I...?  I shall stand around looking... moody.  And feeling...
 sorry for myself."
Newsgroups: rec.arts.comics.misc
From: arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee)
Subject: Re: Sandman Thoughts!!!
Organization: Johns Hopkins University CS Dept.
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 21:58:13 GMT

In article <rowjosp-220193005741@stiles-42-kstar-node.net.yale.edu> rowjosp@yalevm.ycc.yale.edu (Si Rowe) writes:
>The analogy I use is that most people have a binary or linear idea of
>truth: just two extremes. People disagree on what these extremes are.
>Each of these makes a line, or a plane; together, these are the sides
>of a multi-sided figure, which is ultimate Truth.

Perhaps each person's idea of truth is like a line or plane, but these lines
are not sides of the same figure at all.  Instead, some of them are sides of a
figure, and the others are unconnected lines that are not even in the same
place as the real figure, let alone connected to one another.

A metaphor is not a proof, just a tool for understanding.  It is useless if I
already understand, but disagree.

>> You can _say_ "the world was created
>> 5000 years ago, but was not created 5000 years ago", but the words, put
>> together, don't _mean_ anything.
>don't _mean_ anything according to *reason*. But reason is not the
>level the truest stories work on.

I already addressed this: yes, they _are_ true if by "true" you mean "serves an
important social function".  But that is not the kind of truth I am criticizing
them for, so to point out that the stories are true in that sense is
misdirected.
--
"On the first day after Christmas my truelove served to me...  Leftover Turkey!
On the second day after Christmas my truelove served to me...  Turkey Casserole
    that she made from Leftover Turkey.
[days 3-4 deleted] ...  Flaming Turkey Wings! ...
   -- Pizza Hut commercial (and M*tlu/A*gic bait)

Ken Arromdee (arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu, arromdee@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.comics.misc
From: mcollins@nyx.cs.du.edu (Killans - First And Last And Always)
Subject: Re: costumed vigilantes
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 93 13:43:20 GMT

In article <llrhfoINNl6b@news.bbn.com> leekil@bbn.com (Lee Kilpatrick) writes:
>mcollins@nyx.cs.du.edu (Killans - First And Last And Always) writes:
>
>
>>around dressed as a superhero calling himself 'Super Barrio' who acts as a
>>kind of figurehead for the poor people there fighting against the oppressive
>>government. He was actually featured in an early issue of Fleetway's Crisis,
>>a bizarre case of art imitating life imitating art...
>
>
>"Life imitating art (etc.)" -- I sure do hate this expression.
>Doesn't art, for the most part, imitate life, because that's what its
>basis is?  Most art that DOESN'T imitate life is usually pretty
>unpopular, since it would be so hard to understand.  And isn't art
>PART or, or AN ASPECT of life?
>
Most art that doesn't imitate life is pretty unpopular? Have you seen the sales
figures for Marvel recently? Or Mills and Boon? They are popular precisely
because they *don't* imitate life, but portray fantasies which break away
from 'real life'. It's called escapism, and it's one of the most powerful 
driving forces in entertainment (of which art is one aspect).

Actually the phrase was lifted directly from the editorial page of the 
relevant Crisis issue (somewhere around issue 8 as I recall), and is intended
is a word play on the usual expression - ART imitating life imitating art.
I agree, the usual expression is pretty trite.

Hmm, getting off the subject methinks...

Mike (imitating art...)
From: cknight@nmt.edu (Chris Knight)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.comics.misc
Subject: Re: MISC:  Missed Deadlines
Summary: You want it when?
Keywords: deadlines, Foglio, Buck Godot, What's New
Date: 25 Jan 93 22:13:59 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: New Mexico Tech

Anybody remember "Buck Godot",  I have the first (and only two) from Starblaze

These were supposed to be put out on a six month schedule.  That was in '87.

Then there is the "What's New" compilation.  Luckily this no longer counts as
it is finally being published. Yea

Chris Knight
cknight@nmt.edu
Still waiting for Kamandi #60, to find out what the Great Disaster really was.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.comics.misc
From: lecuyer@wam.umd.edu (Catherine L. LeCuyer)
Subject: Harlen Ellison
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Distribution: na
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 14:24:21 GMT

Did anyone else see HE's comentary on Superman on the Sci-Fi channel?
I thought it was dreadfully funny.

Cathy the .sigless
Organization: Junior, Math/Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: rec.arts.comics.misc
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 17:08:28 -0500 
From: "James D. Zelenka" <jz1j+@andrew.cmu.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: MISC: rec.arts.comics.vertigo

Excerpts from netnews.rec.arts.comics.misc: 26-Jan-93 Re:
Rec.arts.comics.vertigo Darkmage@acf3.nyu.edu (333)

> rac.vertigo sounds like a good idea; if you're posting something that
> falls into a grey area (like Lobo, or Spawn :), just post to both...
> eventually, we'll all figure out who likes what where... 

Uh, well, the point of rac.vertigo is that only discussion of Vertigo
books would go there, non-vertigo stuff would go to racm. Much like
x-books was split off; it's a well-defined, high-traffic subset of the
racm traffic. Unfortunately, just as splitting off x-books didn't
eliminate all superhero traffic from racm, likewise, racv wouldn't
eliminate all "mature" traffic. On the other hand, the rac.mature has
been kicked around before, and has been shown pretty clearly (IMO) to be
a non-useful distinction, with too much grey area.

Oh, yeah, and while racv might be a good idea, I say give it a couple
months to see how the imprint takes off. In the meantime, if everyone
would use headers like SANDMAN:, DEATH:, SHADE:, etc, life would be a
lot easier for everyone.

-jim
jz1j@andrew.cmu.edu

Organization: Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: rec.arts.comics.misc
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 10:36:33 -0500 
From: Jason Michael Borlinghaus <jbb9+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: PAD books this week (Hulk, X-Factor)
	<rlcarr.09zf@animato.network23.com>
Distribution: world

>In article <74259@cup.portal.com> Peter_A_David@cup.portal.com writes:
>> The Juggernaut's helmet is indeed "magic" in that it protects him from
>> any *psionic* attack.  That goes all the way back to his first appearance,
>> when they finally managed to stop him by Spider-Man teaming with the X-Men
>> to help rip his helmet off, at which point Prof. X put him down for the
>> count with a mental blast.
> 
>Not any more...
> 
>In Excalibur #3, Rachel takes Juggie down with a mental blast.
>Of course, she WAS (is?) Phoenix, and so was quite a bit higher
>up the power scale than Xavier.

In that issue Juggie had just escaped from a British prison and wasn't
wearing his suit's helmet which protects him from psionic attacks.

- Moose
From: Peter_A_David@cup.portal.com
Newsgroups: rec.arts.comics.misc
Subject: Re: PAD books this week (Hulk, X-Factor)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 93 03:56:43 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
  <1993Jan25.065926.5965@netcom.com> <C1EGAp.LEK@news.cso.uiuc.edu>

The reason that Rick doesn't simply call "Dial-A-Psychic" is part and
parcel of #399, in which Rick went charging through the Marvel universe
like a bull in a china shop, harranguing and insulting a number of the
major players in the MU.  I figured that he was rather self-conscious
about going back to someone like, say, Doc Strange, and saying, "Remember
how I shouted at you because you wouldn't bring Marlo back?  Well, I
allied myself with the Leader and *he* brought her back, but it got
screwed up and I was kinda hoping...?

That would sound just wonderful, wouldn't it.

Nah.  Rick's handling it on his own, best he can.
Of course, when Marlo's brothers show up to bring her back home, and Rick
protests and cleans their clocks for them, and the police are summoned, 
and they bring Captain America along to make sure the job gets done,
and then the Hulk shows up...

PAD
Newsgroups: rec.arts.comics.misc
From: dvandom@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Dave Van Domelen)
Subject: Squadron Supreme and Shi'ar Imperial Guard
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 05:32:50 GMT

While we're busy digging up SS stuff (BTW, SS is currently dangling at Project 
Pegasus, and Quaggy seems to have just been sucked into New Warriors' Light and
Darkness War thingy), let's look at the other DC team at Marvel: The Shi'ar 
Imperial Guard.
     Gladiator = Superboy and/or Mon-El
     Smasher = Ultra Boy, even has similar chest symbol (come to think of it,
          alot of the costumes were close rips)
     Hobgoblin = Cham in his cowled costume with purple skin
     Oracle = Saturn Girl with Mysa's old complexion.
     Quasar = Star Boy
     Astra = Phantom Girl, down to the ponytails
     Wolf = Timber Wolf
     Earthquake = Blok, kinda
     Electron = Lightning Lad
     Tempest = Another Lightning Lad
     Mentor = Brainiac
     Neutron(?) = Wildfire, down to the need for containment suit
     (can't recall the name) = Sun Boy
     Micra (? uncertain of name) = Vi with a weird hairdo and purple costume
     Titan (?) = Colossal Boy, even same interlac chest symbol

     I think I'm forgetting one or two other dupes.  There was no Cosmic Boy 
copy, and the later intros in X-Men #137 (Hussar, Manta, Warstar, Earthquake) 
didn't really have LSH counterparts.  But the group as first appeared was not 
just inspired by a the LSH as the SS was by the JLA, but rather was almost an 
exact duplicate.  And SO WHAT?  They're cool characters whatever the universe 
they reside in, and it's fun to see them from the "other side of the mirror" as
it were.  There's a little of the Hooded Ho'`od Win in all of us, and seeing 
the X-Men fighting the LSH would be really neato, but rather difficult to 
engineer.  Hence the Imperial Guard.  JLA versus Avengers never materialized, 
but the Squadron and the Nukebusters fill the void.  Want to see Magneto, 
Doctor Doom (or Ultron), Wolverine and Dormammu fight the JLA?  Read a story 
with the Extremists.  It's fun and no one gets hurt, not even the original 
characters that were copied.
     Dave Van Domelen, let's have the Shi'ar Imperial Guard fight the Dominator
strike team from the chambers....
Newsgroups: rec.arts.comics.misc
From: arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee)
Subject: Re: Sandman Thoughts!!!
Organization: Johns Hopkins University CS Dept.
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 03:30:54 GMT

In article <1993Jan20.234458.1@fnalo.fnal.gov> morrow@fnalo.fnal.gov (Elmo the Stunt Elk) writes:
>> 1)  Were the Endless created by God directly or came into existence as a
>>     side effect of his creations?  I'm under the impression that the
>>     Endless weren't created directly but were a side effect of his
>>     works.  The first created beings (with sentience) were the angels.
>>     As soon as God created the first angel, the side effect of that one
>>     act was all the Endless coming into existence.
>	Thematically, Sandman breaks down to "All stories are true". 

Is the story "all stories are not true" also true?

This question would of course only be a cute self-reference paradox were it
not for the fact that lots of stories _do_ deny the truth of others, and not
only that, this denial is a greatly emphasized, core part, of the story that
cannot simply be omitted.

I do expect coherence to some degree in my fiction.  Given the number of myths
that place great importance on the untruth of other myths, to say that all
myths are true, in any conventional sense of "true", fails the willing
suspension of disbelief test as much as a story where everyone sings songs
about the Vietnam War without there actually having been a Vietnam War.

There are also myths that don't _directly_ deny the truth of others, but
multiple myths which are "true" in the sense of serving important social
functions to their believers can still contradict factually: the world couldn't
have been created 5000 years ago while having existed billions of years, unless
you mean something unusual by "creation".  You can _say_ "the world was created
5000 years ago, but was not created 5000 years ago", but the words, put
together, don't _mean_ anything.

Sandman purports to present a universal myth while doing nothing of the sort,
and is based on fundamentally incoherent premises.
--
"On the first day after Christmas my truelove served to me...  Leftover Turkey!
On the second day after Christmas my truelove served to me...  Turkey Casserole
    that she made from Leftover Turkey.
[days 3-4 deleted] ...  Flaming Turkey Wings! ...
   -- Pizza Hut commercial (and M*tlu/A*gic bait)

Ken Arromdee (arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu, arromdee@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu)
From: cweir@morgan.ucs.mun.ca (Corey Weir)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.comics.misc
Subject: Re: Scourge Hit List
Summary: Here's a few of them...
Date: 25 Jan 93 19:58:41 GMT
Organization: Memorial University of Newfoundland


          The Scourge has killed many the supervillain in his day, among
these are Killraven, Commander Kraken, Turner D. Century, Mirage, the
Ringer, and Shellshock. He has also killed another Scourge, leading the
readers to believe in an army of Scourges. When you mentioned him going
after so-called higher class villains, such as the Shocker, I
remembered where you saw this. It was in the limited series, The Deadly
Foes of SpiderMan. Except that the Shocker only thought that the Scourge
was after him...Oh yeah, look for an appearance of the Scourge a couple
of years ago in an issue of West Coast Avengers where he tried to kill
Kraven the Hunter...that point is pretty much moot now, isn't it? Also,
later this year, all the secrets of the Scourge will be revealed in a
mini-series involving either Captain America of the U.S.Agent. That's
all I have for now, without my comic collection at the ready...As
always, I am...

                                                  Nomad
From: rawdon@colby.cs.wisc.edu (Michael Rawdon)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.comics.misc
Subject: Re: JLA #72 and a SERIOUS CASE OF DEJA VU!
Date: 25 Jan 93 00:10:42 GMT
Reply-To: rawdon@colby.cs.wisc.edu
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Wisconsin Computer Sciences Dept., Madison, WI

In <C19yBo.HEv@news.cso.uiuc.edu> tpjg9663@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Tom Johnston) writes:
>vanyel@camelot.bradley.edu (Alan Williams) writes:
>>>It was a lame issue regardless.  I picked it up because I remember
>>>the old JLofA and I liked the cover.

>>Oh, yeah, this is lame.  Real lame.  Right.

>Well
>  A)  The gratuitous violence didn't add anything to it for me.  eg The
>      mace (or morning star, whatever) to Sinestro's face

I thought it was effective.  Oh, well.

>  B)  It's a dream, so everyone can act out of character!  Oh boy,
>      what a great excuse for a writer incapable of writing anyone *in
>      character*

Gee, are you referring to:

1) Dan Jurgens, or
2) Keith Giffen and J. M. Dematteis?

(Exceedingly poor characterization was one major problem I had with the
Giffen/Dematteis JLA.)

On the other hand, I actually felt that many of the characters here were IN
character (within the constraint of the basic viciousness of the premise).
Green Arrow, Martian Manhunter, and Atom, to name three.  It read a lot like
an adventure of the old JLA to me, actually.

>  C)  No explanation is given for the events shown.  Were the events
>      worthwhile/interesting enough to carry the book on their own and
>      make up for the bad dialog?
>      IMHO, no, they were not.

This must be why it's only the first part of (at least) two:  The explanation
comes later.

>>This issue presented an interesting view of the JLofA that's as consistent
>>as it's ever been WRT their appearances elsewhere.  The biggest problem
>>team books have *always* faced is that any character who appears elsewhere
>>runs the risk of being inconsistently portrayed in the team book.

>As consistent as it's ever been?  Damning with feint praise, right?
>It may have been an interesting view of the JLofA, but it didn't
>quite cut it for me because of the characterization.  In fact,
>I'd recommend the Steve Engelhart issues as proof that the JLofA
>can be written with correct characterization by a writer of
>sufficient talent.

I thought this issue read quite a bit like an Englehart issue of JLA,
actually.

-- 
Michael Rawdon				  rawdon@colby.cs.wisc.edu
University of Wisconsin Computer Sciences Department,  Madison, WI

"Childbirth is NOT a miracle.  Life is NOT sacred.  When you have twenty
 thousand nomads huddled between two rivers in the Middle East and that's it
 for Homo sapiens, when one in five children is a live birth, one in ten
 living past the age of ten, THEN childbirth IS a miracle and life IS sacred.
 When the average age of a grandmother in Philadelphia's housing projects is
 twenty-five, to call childbirth a miracle is at least a tasteless joke and at
 worst a true obscenity."
				- Dave Sim, from Cerebus #142
Newsgroups: rec.arts.comics.misc