HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: pharvey@quack.sac.ca.us (Paul Harvey)
Subject: meaning of sustainer in America
Organization: The Duck Pond public unix: +1 408 249 9630, log in as 'guest'.
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 23:02:45 GMT

I ran across this little blurb in Restoration and Management Notes:

The California World-Renewal Tradition
Our story starts at the beginning of time. Our knowledge stems from a
race of Spirit Beings whose job at the beginning of time was to unravel
the mystery, to discover the ideal way of life on the newly created
Earth. By trial and error, intuition and feeling, they unlocked the
mysteries one by one. The Spirit Beings were followed by, and their
divinely wrought knowledge passed onto us, the Indian people of the
Klamath River. In exchange, we assumed responsibility to Fix the Earth
each year: to make the world over, thorough ceremonial re-enactment of
the Spirit Beings' first successful World Renewal; to set the world back
on its axis. Many of us today still subscribe to this belief. For us the
vision of the future is grounded in the responsibility of annually
fixing the world. We cannot conceive of a time when stabilizing the
world will become an irrelevant act.
	Julian Lang, Klamath Tribe, Introduction to "To the American
	Indian" by Lucy Thompson.

Now of course, Klamath River is in Northern California, but Klamath
River is everywhere, isn't it?
From: krikket@meltdown.chi.il.us (D. 'krikket' Krick)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Numbers
Date: 21 Aug 92 00:03:47 GMT
Organization: The Meltdown - A Team Star BBS

In article <LX2JPB1w164w@ailanth.UUCP>, ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com (Ailsa N.T.
Murphy) writes:
>krikket@meltdown.chi.il.us (D. 'krikket' Krick) writes:
>
>> In article <BsuMv5.DGA@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A.
>> Davis-Howe) writes:
>> >smayo@wang.com (Scott Mayo) writes:

{Much stuff deleted to save bandwidth}

>Pardon my anglo-saxon, but WHO FUCKING CARES??????  will you PLEASE quit
>cluttering up our newsgroup with this drivel and take it to someplace where
>discussion of christianity and the definition of christianity is appropriate?

I hate to dissapoint you, but I'd like to see a bunch of this conversation
taken elsewhere myself...  But it IS here, and a very blatent error was made in
logic, so I pointed it out.  Sorry if this doesn't make you happy...

>gobbling on and on and on and on about this completely irrelevant bullshit on
>the assumption that the people who don't like it can put it in their kill
>files is pretty rude to those of us who do not hav kill file capacity.

Some of us also do not have kill file capabilities...  And the question was
just thrown out, without thinking of Kill files in the least.  Geez, I hate to
dissapoint you this much...  (Scarcastic Grin)

>a christian is anybody who says they are a christian, a lesbian is anyone who
>says she is a lesbian, a witch is anyone who says they are a witch.  and if
>they also happen to be wierdos, fruitcakes, loonies, or just plain
>malevolant...  well, that's life.

Okay, I'll buy that kind of logic as well.

>now go be elsewhere.

Ooooh...  Does this count as my first public flame?  (Or at least it's the
first message I've received that had little but flammage content...)

Can we "make up and be nice now"?

Krikket               ! krikket@meltdown.chi.il.us ! USnail:3 Danada Square E.
a.k.a Doug Krick      ! Team Star Charter Member   !        Suite 246
Data ph# 708/665-9732 ! #include<std.disclaimers>  !        Wheaton, Il 60187
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Just another commentary on the sad state of affairs on our nation today.
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe)
Subject: Re: Numbers
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 05:38:34 GMT

manes@tandon.com (Dane Manes) writes:

>Wait!  Who ever said that Catholics where Christian?  Christians believe in 
>the legend of a man named Jesus about 2k years ago, and the Catholics believe
>in the Pope!  Not to mention all those virgins, martyrs, and saints and stuff.
>Looks pretty polytheistic to me!

This is just plain abusive.  It is also very misleading.  *All* of Christianity,
until quite recently had "virgins, martyrs, and saints and stuff".  And the
majority of Christians alive today also have those things.  Please get your
facts right before attacking.  Better yet, don't attack people's beliefs at all!

No "Merry meet"s for this kind of abuse!

Bran
From: mimir@milton.u.washington.edu (Al Billings)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: News Alert
Date: 22 Aug 92 05:43:04 GMT
Organization: The Friends of Loki Society


 Rob Meek was apprehended in New Mexico today by the police. He's caught
again.

Wassail,
Grendel

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Al Billings - Anthropology Undergrad - Admin for the Troth-l Mailing List | 
| SysOp of The Sacred Grove BBS (206)634-1980 -=- mimir@u.washington.edu    |
------------------------------ Cut Here -------------------------------------
begin 644 GRENDEL.PUB
MF58``1%^*@Q":6QL:6YG<RP@06S^`2N`$7JAHA^YG*D:W0:>,_,\N<XL-]7BN
LV+1/'DT4SH3V2$'*(9NAE_,+VB9R.4=@$9R.J1?CL3H!9@HR8+7DD3@%`!$%E
``
end
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
Subject: Re: Pagan music (was Re: New Thread: Pagan Fiction)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: 18 Aug 92 20:54:57 GMT

In article <1992Aug18.164756.29914@burrhus.harvard.edu> canders@isr.harvard.edu (Carl E. Anderson) writes:
>In article <2A904741.27799@orion.oac.uci.edu> cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese) writes:
>>Okay, let's get a little balmy, too.  Some of us like the feel of sun
>>on our skin and Medi sand between our toes!
>
>	Fair enough :) I remember a Classics major friend of mine who got a
>tape of Ancient Greek music.  Apparently there are some transcripts of
>ancient Greek tunes is mss.  and somebody arranged them for ancient Greek
>instruments and recorded it.  I haven't heard this myself, but apparently
>it does exist.                
>
>Cheers,
>Carl
>

I appreciate the information, but I have a feeling that I'm going to be
chasing this damned thing for the next couple of years.  Thanks a LOT.

Blessings and sincere thanks!
Janis
From: ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com (Ailsa N.T. Murphy)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: That Virgin Mary really gets around
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 92 13:25:37 EST
Organization: Ailanthus Project

lip@s1.gov (Loren I. Petrich) writes:

> In article <11190028@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM> reykja@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Reykja Sigurd
>
[three tiers (one attribution gone) of making fun of the virgin mary deleted]

i find all this rather odd, myself.  this thread, that is.  i had always
thought the mary sightings were very nice, rather moving.  proof that even
christians need the goddess.  if people are seeing the virgin mary, and more
people WANT to see her, why should we make fun of that?  if i thought she
existed, *I* would try to go someplace where i could see her in person!  why is
it that pilgrimages are subject to ridicule if people in OUR culture go on
them?  i think they're beautiful.

                                          -ailsa

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
     ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com                   ________
        I don't need a hero                Silence \      / Action
        I don't need a soldier                =     \    /    =
        I did when i was younger            Death    \  /    Life
        But now i'm so much older.                    \/
From: markbr@radian.UUCP (Mark Roth)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Pagan fiction, the "survey", & Heinlein
Date: 19 Aug 92 18:26:14 GMT

Merry meet, all. I'm *hoping* this method of posting works.

Re: Pagan fiction; no one has mentioned Evangeline Walton's series of four
books, which where novelizations of The Mabinogion. If I can remember, I think
they were titled _The Fate of the Princes of Dyffedd_, _The Children of Llyr,
(damn, can't remember the other two - if this post works, and I remember
tonight, I'll try to get all the names. Still, the author is spelled correctly.)
Also Patricia McKillip (all of her stuff, I think). 
More tomorrow.

Re: Heinlein; yes, as several other have said, he *wasn't a product of the
modern world (and he has been dead a few years now). Much of his eary stuff
is imaginative and well-written. Check out _The Rolling Stones_, or _Double
Star_. Try his stuff from a bit later, like _Glory Road_, or _Moon Is A 
Harsh Mistress_. Yes, he had problems. He also developed a brain tumor in
the early 70's; that was the period of *ALL* the crap he wrote (_The Number
Of the Turkey_, etc.) After he had the operation to remove it was when he
wrote _Friday_, which was vastly better than that 70's- period stuff. Still,
that wasn't great - it was three seperate stories, and ended stupidly (no,
I didn't believe when Doc Smith had the Red Lensman settle down for 20 years as
a PTA mom, and I didn't beleive when RAH did it. Job_, if you don't mind a 
more-or-less fantasy set in a Xian end-of-the-world (literally), is well-written
 and enjoyable (I read through the last third waiting for him to drag in
Lazerus Fucking Long and ruin it, and *he* *didn't*!). DON'T READ the crap from
the 70's, but, he is good, even if he is a product of the 20's and 30's.

That Stupid Survey: hey, guys (generic, all-purpose word), *I* replied to
them by email. If it don't bounce, they get it. Think they'll like my
new .sig quote?

	mark

/*___________________________________________________________________________*
 *  1.     How *DARE* you attribute these opinions to anyone else!           *
 *  2.     Would *you* claim opinions like these if they *weren't your own?  *
 *					                                     *
 *          	       	markbr@radian                                        *
 *___________________________________________________________________________*/

Several thousand years ago, a small tribe of ignorant near-savages wrote 
various collections of myths, wild tales, lies, and gibberish.  Over the 
centuries, these stories were embroidered, garbled, mutilated, and torn 
into small pieces that were then repeatedly shuffled.  Finally, this 
material was badly translated into several languages successively.

The resultant text, creationists feel, is the best guide to this complex 
and technical subject.

                    -- Tom Weller, *Science Made Stupid*
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: ceci@lysator.liu.se (Ceci Henningsson)
Subject: Re: gift to the sea
Keywords: here, fishy fishy...
Organization: Lysator Academic Computer Club, Linkoping University, Sweden
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 15:55:50 GMT

smayo@wang.com (Scott Mayo) writes:

>I came upon an article in the Boston Globe (that bastion of truth), and
>it reminded me of some topics raised in alt.pagan. I thought I'd share
>some thoughts here. It is an AP article, p.2 of the Aug 10 1992 Globe,
>entitled "Storm over a gift to the sea."
...

>I don't see a *substantial* difference, except in scale, between this
>statue's sacrifice and some things done in the name of magick and paganism.
>I find myself aghast, however, at the mindset of folk who will fling that

>amount of bread into the ocean to rot while folk are starving, in the
>Netherlands and elsewhere. Or that half a mil is being spent to pull this
 ^^^^^^^^^^^
>off. For what? Do they think the sea will notice or care? Or are they
>privately into point-disruption of local underwater ecologies?

Noone in the Netherlands is starving. The Netherlands is an
industrialized country in the north-western part of Europe. It shares
borders with Belgium, Luxemburg and Germany and has a Northsea coast.

--Ceci, still advocating geography lessons to everyone who posts on
        the WORLDWIDE net
--
=====ceci@lysator.liu.se===========================================
water-colour n. artists' paint mixed with water (not oil); 
			From The Oxford Guide to the English Language
===================================================================
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: New Thread: Pagan Fiction
From: canders@isr.harvard.edu (Carl E. Anderson)
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 92 16:27:39 GMT
Organization: Harvard University, Cambridge, MA

In article <1992Aug15.013101.15589@u.washington.edu> mimir@milton.u.washington.edu (Al Billings) writes:
>In article <1992Aug14.205339.27199@burrhus.harvard.edu> canders@isr.harvard.edu (Carl E. Anderson) writes:
>>
>>	I have always been entertained by Elizabeth H. Boyer's books.  Like
>>wise with Poul and Karen Anderson's Ys series.
>
> I've heard both good and bad things about Boyer's books. Just how good
>are they and accurate when it comes to mythology?

	Well, she doesn't delve very deeply into what you might consider
"high mythology" - gods and suchlike.  Most of her magic and otherworld
stuff operates at the folklore level.  To a certain extent she does play
fast and loose with things ...

BUT!  I feel she uses Norse elements in a creative way and very nicely
captures the spirit of the Scandinavian folk tradition.  Poul Anderson does
a very good job at reworking saga literature with his version of Hrolfs
saga kraka and other similar stories.  E.H. Boyer takes a different tack
using the materials and reinterpreting them to present an alternate world
that is not our Earth but a similar set-up.  She has added and expanded
details without breaking away from the old spirit - certainly no worse than
many a fornaldrarsaga!
	She has tended to be a bit wishy-washy about geography and exact
details from book to book (except in her four most recent, which are
actually a series).  The first one I read was The Elves and the Otterskin,
which is an interesting and amusing reworking of the Fafnir's
gold/Andvari/Ottar's expanding skin elements, familiar from the Norse
myths.

	Her books are not "pagan" in that they discuss particularly
neo-pagan things or points of view.  They do, however, have much to do with
Scandinavian folklore which I find rather more interesting, as far as
paganess goes.

Cheers,
Carl

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carl Edlund Anderson	            	"Hefi ek ok aldri sva reitt vapn
canders@isr.harvard.edu			at manni at eigi hafi vidh kommit."
OR
anderso2@husc.harvard.edu			- Skarphedhinn Njalsson 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------


Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: sallyb@qiclab.scn.rain.com (Sally Bowley)
Subject: Re: jet, ruby
Organization: SCN Research/Qic Laboratories of Tigard, Oregon.
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 07:37:17 GMT

In article <CMM.0.88.713648907.fannin@tortoise.cis.ohio-state.edu> fannin@news.cis.ohio-state.edu (elizabeth a fannin) writes:
>
>another topic:  in a fiction book i had some years back ruby is described as a
>defense against negative energy.  can't remember the title of the dang
>thing....anyone heard of this one?  (NOT that i am likely to own any rubies!!)

flicks open handy dandy book and reads..... ;-)

"ruby - this stone is oneof many that is thought to grow dark when
danger or negativity approaches it's owner or when illness threatens.
wether this was psychically viewed, symbolic or an actual change in
color or clarity of the stone is undetermined, but was probably a
psychic phenomenon. worn, the ruby was thought to convey
invulnerability, or protection against all foes, wicked spirits,
negativity, plague, magical manipulation and famine. it was also a
mascot of soldiers, guarding against wounds in battle, the ruby
strengthens the body's own psychic defense system when worn. the ruby
in the home guards it against storms and negativity, especially if
first touched to the four outside corners of the house."

there's more, but this related to your question!
blessings
sally
From: shava@hermes.oit.unc.edu (Shava Nerad Averett)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Magick Christians (was: Re: Numbers)
Summary: Shava goes fishing for Scott Mayo...;)
Date: 16 Aug 92 18:41:48 GMT
Organization: University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill

In article <24672@castle.ed.ac.uk> loki@castle.ed.ac.uk (A Kashko) writes:
>In article <2A8484B6.16398@noiro.acs.uci.edu> cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese) writes:
>>It is, however, revealing to read Hitler's private writings, where he
>>talks of things like "Jesus Christ was a holy soldier killed by the
>>demon Jews, and I must continue the noble fight in his place."  Hitler
>>was, by the way, a Roman Catholic. 
>
>	I guess, assuming these writings are genuine, this knocks the idea
>that Hitler was basing the Third Reich on Occultism, and had an inner cabal
>forming a new aryan religion (as suggested by Ravenscroft and others)
>on the head

Actually, the majority of occultism in Europe, from the renaissance thru
the recent past, was at least cosmetically Christian.  For example, Pico
della Mirandola's interpretation of the kaballah, which is the root of
qaballistic western ritual magick, was used to convert jews to christianity.

The 'occultist's,' or Hermetic scientists (contemporary term...) alignment
with Platonic philosophy put them out of favor with the Church, whereas 
the materialistic scientists (one hesistates to call them empirical at
that date) were aligned with Archimedes, of whom the Church officially 
approved.  Much of the scientific development and history of scientific
ideas of the renaissance thru the 'age of enlightenment' can be profitably
studied by contrasting the platonic vs. archimedian schools of thought.

Theology used to be known as 'the queen of the sciences.'  Where theology
moves, can magick be far away?  (she ducks...;)

-- 
Shava Nerad Averett				shava_averett@unc.edu
/*  all materials (c)1992, Shava Nerad Averett, and have nothing significant
    to do with the University of North Carolina, a mostly owned subsidiary 
    of the NC Legislature, a mostly owned subsidiary of the DOT.      */
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Another Pagan Movie
From: canders@isr.harvard.edu (Carl E. Anderson)
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 92 15:58:39 GMT
Organization: Harvard University, Cambridge, MA

In article <19427@drutx.ATT.COM> suelh@druhi.ATT.COM (Sue Hendrix) writes:
>Eric the Viking.
>
>A friend mentioned this one--we were surprised not to see
>anyone else come up with it.  Ragnarok, Valhalla, Hy Brasil,
>and lots of fun.  There is a lot of stuff about reality
>as a function of belief.  For instance, the Christian missionary
>can't see Valhalla as he doesn't believe in it.  (He's a great
>character.  Has managed to convert one person.  To Buddhism.)
>
>I know it got swatted by the critics--but I think they were 
>unequipped to appreciate it.  A fun romp.  

	Yes, this one is great fun.  Terry Jones also did a book of it,
orriented towards kids.  Lots of neat pictures.  The tone is not nearly so
raucous, and the plot is more involved and complex.  Check it out.

>           Subvert the dominant paradigm.

	Subvert the dominant paradigm?  But I _am_ the dominent paradigm.

.wicked.grin.

Carl

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carl Edlund Anderson	            	"Hefi ek ok aldri sva reitt vapn
canders@isr.harvard.edu			at manni at eigi hafi vidh kommit."
OR
anderso2@husc.harvard.edu			- Skarphedhinn Njalsson 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
Subject: Re: New Thread: Pagan Fiction
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: 14 Aug 92 23:52:34 GMT

In article <1992Aug14.205339.27199@burrhus.harvard.edu> canders@isr.harvard.edu (Carl E. Anderson) writes:
>In article <1992Aug13.184947.7664@lmt.mn.org> ciaran@county.lmt.mn.org (Ciaran Benson) writes:
>>>" In the grand tradition of the Pagan Movie thread, I thought I'd
>>>ask people for their favorite works of fiction with pagan
>>>themes."
>>
>>  C. J. Cherryh's "Rysulka" (sp?) trilogy, without question.
>>Matches my idea of how magic works in a pagan world, anyway.
>>
>

How about Jacqueline Lightenberg's Sime/Gen books?  I've only read one
of them, and it was okay, but I know they're popular, and I'm surprised
no one else mentioned them.  Then again, maybe they're not as popular as
I thought . . .

Blessings,
Janis
From: darsie@eecs.ucdavis.edu (Richard Darsie)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Pagan Music (Was Re: New Thread: Pagan Fiction)
Date: 17 Aug 92 21:13:19 GMT
Organization: University of California, Davis

In article <1992Aug17.165908.9244@burrhus.harvard.edu>, canders@isr.harvard.edu (Carl E. Anderson) writes:
> 

Tuneweaver has to weigh in on *this* thread!

> 
> 	Morris On - A. Hutchings, R. Thompson et al. do folk-rock versions
> 		of _real_ pagan (well, OK, pagan-derived) music: morris
> 		dances!

Yes this is pretty interesting stuff. I couldn't listen to it on
a regular basis, tho...

> 	The Tain - Horslips - Irish folk-rock outfit from the '70s musical
> 		version of the Irish literary masterpiece.  They're
> 		whacked, but it's kinda neat.

YES, YES!  These guys were great!  They did another rock opera
besides the Tain, one called "The Book of Invasions". Great stuff
and informative liner notes about the mythology.

   [others deleted]

Clannad has some good stuff. Before they got all electrified they were
one of the best of the true Celtic folk groups - very tight vocal
arrangements with incredible harmonies. Check out their older albums
"Dulaman", "Clannad 2" and "In Concert". They also did the soundtrack for 
the "Robin of Sherwood" TV series which figured in the Pagan Movie
thread...

One of my favorite "pagan" songs (don't know if it was overtly intended
so) is "Circle of the Sun" by Sally Rogers (I think)... It's sung in
a very chantlike manner:

   Babies are born in a Circle of the Sun,
   Circle of the Sun on their birthing day.
   Clouds to the north, clouds to the south,
   Wind and rain to the east and the west.
   Babies are born in a Circle of the Sun,
   Circle of the Sun on their birthing day.

   [rest of song deleted]

Please let's have more on this thread. Tuneweaver sends
blessings in advance!

> Cheers,
> Carl
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Carl Edlund Anderson	            	"Hefi ek ok aldri sva reitt vapn
> canders@isr.harvard.edu			at manni at eigi hafi vidh kommit."
> OR
> anderso2@husc.harvard.edu			- Skarphedhinn Njalsson 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Richard
(Tuneweaver)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: fannin@news.cis.ohio-state.edu (elizabeth a fannin)
Subject: pagan literature
Organization: The Ohio State University Department of Computer and Information Science
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 21:34:41 GMT

gee, i wondered when someone was going to mention susan cooper and lloyd
alexander!  

how about:  the owl service (have just blanked on the author), also sorta an
older kids' book;
 
the song of rhiannon, etc (gee, it's been a long time, i'll have to look in my
bookshelf for these authors)

song for a dark queen

lolly willowes, an old, old book which my friend libby read when she was
young, and which she later realized clued her in that she was a witch (i've
not yet found a copy to read, could be hard to do)

alan garner's weirdstone of brisingamen and moon of gomrath

more as i think of them....