From: idacrd!nick@uunet.uu.net (Nick Patterson)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Theravadha/Mahayana/Zen (was pleasure from food)
Date: 22 Jan 1993 18:23:22 -0800
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> I think one can enjoy food and not attach to
>the pleasure. 
>nick@ccr-p.ida.org Nick Patterson 

>>Sure one can, the enlightened one :-)
>>And before you can do that you 're gonna need a lot of Theravadhin
>>practice :-) Have you ever practice Zen? I think their practice,
>>contrary to their beautified words in books, is very disciplinary
>>and ritualistic much more than the notoriously conservative
>>theravadhin. If you go to buddhadasa's monastery for a practice, it'll
>>change all your preconception about theravadhin. There, you'll be
>>fed two delicious and healthy vegetarian meals a day. No rule, no
>>ritual, no discipline, no one will ever tell you to do this or
>>do that, you're supposed to be your own master, if you have questions,
>>fine, go ask him and go back to thread your own path.

>>Buddhadasa was the first one in Thailand who translate Zen sutras
>>into Thai. His monastery sports a Zen garden as well as a statue of Avalo-
>>kitesavara Bodhisattava (of the Mahayanist). He was of the opinion that Zen
>>is not Mahayana but a revolt against Mahayana. And, a Western
>>scholar  (can't remember who) once said 'certain form of theravadha
>>buddhism practiced in Thailand is the Zen of Southeast Asia.' I think
>>the scholar meant it to be 'the forest tradition.' To me, this is a
>>dishonor. I think they are better than Zen :-) Seriously, I think
>>they (the theravadhin) have a very balanced approach since they
>>employ all means possible to liberate the mind from the slavery of sense
>>, from the brute force technique of asceticism to the lofty intellectualism. 
>>It's like American footbal :-), if you have a balanced ground and air
>>attacks and with a good defense, chances are you will win the ball game.

>>One thing i notice about conservative/liberal label scholars have
>>attached to hinayana/mahayana buddhism is that
>>the conservative hinayanist wants no divinity while
>>the liberal mahayana wants to deify the buddha. This is quite
>>opposite to C/L in Christianity. And the hinayanist is democratic
>>in allowing each individual thread hir path out while the
>>mahayanist wants to force all into mass-enlightenment :-)

>>fstawit@icomp01.lerc.nasa.gov (Tawit Chitsomboon)

Reply: 
I think this thread is worth pursuing, but I would
like to begin with some cautionary words.   I very much
want to avoid sectarian wrangling here.  I'm a practicing
Zen Buddhist but only have the highest respect for what I know
about Tawit's tradition.  He and I are each trying to follow the 
Dharma, and even if our routes are not identical:
"Many paths lead to the gateless gate".
We surely share far more than divides us.
Here for instance is a quote from Dogen Zenji giving
instruction on meditation that could
I think easily be from a Theravadhin master:		
"When a wish arises note it, and when you have noted it let it go!
As you practice a long time, you forget all attachments, and
come before yourself in concentration."



Let me begin by trying to answer the question "is Zen Mahayana?"
Well, certainly Zen historically originated in the Mahayana
and I can think of no Zen masters who did not regard themselves
as solidly in that tradition.  For instance just to quote from
the top of my head from Hakuin Zenji's song of zazen:

As for zazen practice in the Mahayana,
There aren't words of praise enough...

What about my own practice?
1) I say the (Mahayana) great vows daily before zazen.
2) The heart sutra is vital to my practice.

I thought that made me a Mahayanist! If not that's OK, 'cos
labels really don't matter.

Is formal Zen practice "disciplinary and ritualistic"?
I guess so.  But I have found in my practice that external
constraints can aid internal freedom.  That's what seems to
matter.

Finally, do I (a liberal mahayanist?) want to deify the Buddha?
Certainly not!

Now a question for Tawit.  Do you ever sit in a group?  If so how
do you avoid discipline and ritual?

Nick