From: yohan@festus.ksu.ksu.edu (Jonathan W Newton)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Re: LIFE GOES ON UNTIL YOU DIE
Date: 25 Aug 1992 16:55:51 -0500
Organization: Kansas State University
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: festus.ksu.ksu.edu


In article <1992Aug25.172221.25816@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu>, csfed@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu (Frank Doss) writes:
>In article <17dldsINNc9t@apollo.ksu.ksu.edu> yohan@apollo.ksu.ksu.edu (Jonathan W Newton) writes:
>>
>>In article <1992Aug24.145552.28034@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu>, csfed@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu (Frank Doss) writes:
>>>In article <17aqs1INN9h5@shadow.ksu.ksu.edu> yohan@shadow.ksu.ksu.edu (Jonathan W Newton) writes:
>>>>
>>>>In article <1992Aug24.080325.526@maths.tcd.ie>, djohn@maths.tcd.ie (Derek John) writes:
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>I agree with your conclusion, but I don't see what there is to fear.
>>>
>>>Seems to me that the thing to fear about death is the loss of life.
>>>Life is all we have.  When I die, I will no longer be able to be with
>>>family and friends.  When I die, I will no longer be able to ...
>>>
>>
>>How is this bad or good?  How can nothing (i.e. the time after your death) be bad
>
>The problem is not the time after death.  It's the end of time before
>death that's the clencher.  When one loses that which he values to fill
>the time during life, the death is no longer to be feared.

I agree here.  I fear the act of dieing because of the physical pain it entails. 
To fear losing something (i.e. the good things in life) I'm not going to need
when I'm dead is totally irrational.


>
>>or good.  It just is (or isn't).
>
>From the point of view as someone who is currently living, loss of the
>status quo (life) could be considered bad.  The prospect of the loss of
>one's own life is not a favorable prospect if one has many things in
>life which s/he enjoys.

I never said death was a "favorable prospect".  Death means oblivion; death is
something I will never be able to experience therefore it is irrelevant.
(By death I mean the period when I am dead, not the time I am alive and dieing).

>
>>>
>>>Fear of death does not stem only from a fear of some mythical punishment
>>>in the mythical afterlife.  Fear can also grow from a fear of losing
>>>what one currently has.
>>
>>Should someone fear the act of losing something or or should they fear having to
>>endure the loss?  Say you know your going to die in an hour, are you going to
>>care if someone steals your wallet?  Are you mad because someone stole your
>>wallet or because you can't use it anymore?
>
>I think you are looking at this from the point of view of the dead.  Of
>course, a non-existant being (a dead human) would not--could not--care
>one way or another about being dead.  A live being (me) just wants (as
>irrational as it may seem) to live.

You seem to have the idea I hate life.  You are completely wrong.  I'm simply
saying that death is an irrelevant period of time that can be neither good or
bad.  I choose to live, because I view life as a "good thing".  I enjoy life, and
I do not consider that irrational.

>
>As for you wallet analogy...  I do not let some fear of losing my wallet
>(or rather the contents thereof) overly change the way I conduct my
>life.  I may refrain from leaving it on store counters, flashing the
>bills within to strangers, and so on.  However, I do not worry myself
>over the possibility that the wallet or its contents may be lost.  I
>shall continue to exist in any case.

No, you completely missed my point.  Which scenario would you care more about if
you lost your wallet:

1)  You know you're going to die in an hour.
2)  There's no reason you shouldn't live to a ripe old age.

I gaurantee that most people would care about case 2).  This is because you'll
have to experience the problems of losing your wallet.  My point is that death
makes the future after it irrelevant.


>
>Now, I do not worry myself over the possibility that I may die.  Because
>I cherish the things my life contains (compares to my ID and cash in my
>wallet), I take steps to avoid losing my life.  I do not step in front
>of big fast things.  I have stopped stepping out of flying aircraft
>without a parachute.  These are just minor adjustments to recreation.  I
>still enjoy a 1/4 pounder with cheese, seeking thrills, and other things.
>
>A dead me would be beyond caring about what happens to the body.  All
>that would remain of me would a slab of nasty meat and the memories of
>me held by those who have come in contact with me.  My dreams would be
>gone.  My doing would have ceased.
>
>The live me wishes to continue dreaming. The live me wants to continue
>doing things.
>
>As for shuddering at the thought of death... what a waste of time.  Time
>that could be better spent dreaming and doing.

I completely agree.


>
>>>If you have nothing that you cherish in life, then I could see why you
>>>would not fear death.
>
>I will continue the above thought.  I once knew a man who had terminal
>cancer.  He also cherished his intelligence.  He feared that once his
>brain was attacked by the cancer, he would lose his intelligence.  Once 
>that was gone, he would be a prisoner in a dank decaying cell.  The day 
>he learned the cancer had reached his brain, he gave up and died.  That 
>was August 25, 1988.  He lost that which helped him appreciate the fine
>things in his life... his wife (my mother), his children (my siblings
>and I) and his grand children.  He also lost the ability to learn more.
>
>He no longer could find anything to cherish.  He lost his fear of death.

In the future, I advise you not to bring personal experiences into the
discussion.  I will now say that life in and of itself is neither a good or bad
thing.  Life is only important when it allows us to experience happiness, and I
mean this in the long-term.  If I was in a situation where I was permanently
miserable, I would want to die, because life would cease to be a "good thing". 
For others to condemn someone for wanting to escape misery is to be extremely
selfish.

>
>>
>>My point is that if you won't be able to experience that loss, then why would
>>you fear that loss.
>
>Again, I say that you are looking at the issue from the point of view of
>a dead person.  This point of view is similar to wondering if an oak
>chair misses growing acorns.

What other point of view is there?


>
>Someone said that one should rationally look at the fear of death (or
>conversely the drive for life).  It has been asserted that a logical
>person would not fear that which will come no matter what.
>
>Well, the drive for life can be rationally and logically explained as
>well as the urge to reproduce.

That's true, and I'd be happy to discuss it.

>
>>Jon Newton
>
>
>-- 
>
>Frank Doss 
>The above stated words are my opinions and do not reflect the opinions,
>attitudes, or policies of my employer or any affilliated organizations.


Jon Newton
Newsgroups: alt.atheism