HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: lmollett@lunatix.uucp (Laura Mollett)
Subject: Re: Dog Mythos
Organization: Lexington Public Access Unix. -KY- (606) 253-1481 
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1992 20:24:00 GMT

In article <1992Aug11.005214.12316@csl.sri.com> pcorless@cisco.com (Peter Corless) writes:
>In reply to post:
>From: z_coolidgeas@ccsvax.sfasu.edu
>Subject: Dog Mythos
>
[Original question deleted for band width considerations]

>In the Irish epic, the Ta/in Bo/ Cuailgne, the Ulster Hero got his name "Cu/
>Chulainn", which means "The Hound of Culann" by killing the fierce protecting
>dog of the smith Chulann.
>
>Later, in the Fenian cycle, Finn MacCoul obtains much help from his she-dog
>companion (who's name I can't remember off hand, sorry!)... This remarkable
>beast is capable of speech, and is as intelligent as a human.
>
>Dogs are regarded with honor in Irish mythology. They are the companions of
>men in the hunt and in war.
>
>Note that this is all Irish Celtic tradition; the continental Celtic
>traditions probably have distinctly different variations.

Yah, I'm sure they are very different, but as an interesting note, the early
French Arthurian tales (Chretien de Troyes) gives Arthur a very interesting
dog companion.  He (the dog) is important enough to be mentioned by name, etc.
I can't remember if Mallory also includes him or not.  That and the Morgan le
Fay/Morrigan and the Morrigan's important (and not terribly clear) part in the
Cuchulainn tales makes for some interesting comparisons of the two bodies of
myth (IMHO, of course) :).

It might also be interesting to note that in early depictions of witch's
familiars dogs are much more common than cats.  Since witch's supposedly
represent a debased (in the medieval period, I mean) form of Pagan religions,
and the familiars are their "demons" (an earthly representation of their
Gods, sorta like avatars?) then perhaps there is a good ancient reason for the
demons to appear in that form.

Different "dog" type names (like Cuchulainn) seem to be prevelent in the 
Celtic languages (I think) similarly to Art = bear being an important name.
And isn't a dog one of the forms forced on Gwydion by Math as a punishment
in the Mabinogion? (mebbe not, I only really remember deer and wolf, but I'm
sure there were three...guess I should go look it up :)

		Later,
			Laura Mollett


Newsgroups: alt.mythology,sci.anthropology
From: lmollett@lunatix.uucp (Laura Mollett)
Subject: Re: The creation of Eve
Organization: Lexington Public Access Unix. -KY- (606) 253-1481 
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1992 20:04:35 GMT

In article <92220.163812IDJDE@ASUACAD.BITNET> <IDJDE@ASUACAD.BITNET> writes:
>in response to the suggestion of a psychosexual interpretation of the creation
>of eve, i offer the following observation: the creation of eve has nothing at
>all to do with a psychosexual complex. it is a metaphysical insight. when we
>compare this, for example, with a hindu creation myth, taken from the chandogya
>upanishad, we find a curious parallel: in the beginning, there was the great
>self, neither male nor female, which suddenly thought, "I am," and immediately
>felt fear. then, born out of this fear, was a desire for another, so that it
>should not be alone. It split itself in half, therefore, one half male, and the
>other female. the male felt sexual desire for the female, and the female, being
>a female, decided to make it tough for him, and so transformed herself into a
>bull. he, too, turned into a bull, reproduced with her and created bulls. and
>this went on, until the whole of creation was produced. then, the great self,
>beholding his creation, said, "Truly, I am this creation."
	I wonder if you can give me an English book source for this myth?  It
sounds wonderfully like an example of what might be an Indo-European proto-myth
to coin a phrase <grin>, and while I've seen bits and pieces of it in what I
have of the Indian/Hindu myths (English translations), I've not seen anything
this clear (thanks :), nor did I realise it was a creation myth.  I'm 
interested in comparing it with the remainder of what might be a similar myth
in Norse and Celtic societies, i.e. the song "Two Magicians," the story of the
two swineherds who fought their final battle as the white and black (dun) bulls
in the Cuchulain myths, and even possibly the Norse cow who gave birth to 
(licked into being? I've forgotten exactly) Odin.  I think there are some
similar concepts in Greco/Roman, but I'm not as familiar with those.  Anyway,
if this is a part of a "cow-goddess" concept, and part of an original creation
myth, could lead new insight to compare, yes?
	Thanks very much,
			Laura Mollett
>--John david ebert
>mesa, arizona


Newsgroups: alt.mythology,sci.anthropology
From: rowanf@crc.ricoh.com (Rowan Fairgrove)
Subject: Re: The creation of Eve (Norse)
Reply-To: rowanf@crc.ricoh.com (Rowan Fairgrove)
Organization: RICOH California Research Center
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 92 19:46:20 GMT

helgi@wam.umd.edu (Helgi Torleif Dagsson) sez:

>  The offspring of 
>this union was Odhinn's stead, Sleipnir (the eight legged horse, who some
>have said represents a coffin being carried by the pall-bearers.  That 
>would make sense as Odhinn is a pyschopomp, but I have no sources for it
>at the moment.)  

My friend Leigh Ann kindly provides the following cite:

 Here's a ref from GODS AND MYTHS OF NORTHERN EUROPE, by
H.R. Ellis-Davidson.  "The eight-legged horse of Odin is the typical steed of
the shaman.  In his journeys to the heavens or the underworld, the shaman is
usually represented as riding on some bird or animal.  The character of the 
creature varies, but the horse is fairly common in the lands where horses are
in general use, and Sleipnir's ability to bear the god through the air is
typical of the shaman's steed...
   "Attempts have been made to account for the eight legs of Sleipnir
by likening him to the hobby horses and steeds with more than four feet that
appear in carnivals and processions.  A more fruitful resemblance seems to be
to the bier on which a dead man is carried in the funeral procession by four
bearers; borne along thus, he may be described as riding on a steed with
eight legs.  Confirmation of this is found in a funeral dirge recorded by
Verrier Elwyn among the Gonds in India.  It contains references to Bagri
Maro, the horse with eight legs, and it is clear from the song that this is
the dead man's bier.  The song is sung when a distinguished Muria dies.  One
verse of it runs:
	What horse is this?
	It is the horse of Bagri Maro.
	What should we say of its legs?
	This horse has eight legs.
	What should we say of its heads?
	This horse has four heads...
	Catch the bridle and mount the horse.
  The representation of Odin's eight-legged steed could arise naturally out of
such an image, and this in accordance with the picture of Sleipnir as a horse
that could bear its rider to the land of the dead."  (pp. 142-3 of the 1964
Penguin paperback edition)

Rowan Fairgrove
From: mc7b+@andrew.cmu.edu (Matthew Donald Celeskey)
Newsgroups: alt.mythology
Subject: Re: Qeutzcoatl
Date: 22 Aug 92 05:02:51 GMT
    <1992Aug21.211459.28241@sobeco.com>
	<1992Aug21.230326.7469@ms.uky.edu>
Organization: Freshman, Art, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA

Howdy howdy howdy

To beat a dead deity ~>

Quetzalcoatl was the name of an actual Toltec king/lord, I believe, who
was named after the Toltecan deity of creation and civilization. 
Eventually the two were regarded as one and the same.

His name is from the Nahuatl meaning feathered serpent.  The Maya had a
similar deity named Kukulkan, which means the same.

His mythological opposite (and, according to some sources, twin) was
Tezcatlipoca, god of sorcery and warriors.  He also had his roots in
Toltec mythology, but was later assimilated by the Aztecs and was often
paralleled with their tribal patron,  Huitzilopochtli.

The story of Quetzalcoatl's rule, as I understand it, goes as follows ->

Quetzalcoatl was a Toltec king who was admired by all as a wise, just,
and good ruler.  More importantly, he was considered an avatar of the
wise, just, and benificent god of the same name.  Due to the
longstanding feud between him and Tezcatlipoca, the latter came to
Tula/Tollan (the Toltec capital) for his revenge.

Quetzalcoatl had a beautiful daughter, and Tezcatlipoca dealt his first
blow through her.  Assuming the guise of a chili merchant, he sold his
wares in the street outside of the princess' window, without wearing any
clothes.  The princess was enchanted by his body and soon married him.  

Tezcatlipoca then intoxicated Quetzalcoatl and caused him to act in a
lewd and lecherous manner generally ill-befitting a wise,  just, and
benificent king.  When Quetzalcoatl came to the realization of what he
had done, he fled the city in shame with a few of his loyal servants.

After a long and treacherous journey in which all of his servants were
killed, Quetzalcoatl made it to the ocean.  At this point he either
immolated himself on a pyre and rose to become the morning star (Venus)
or sailed across the ocean on a raft made of serpents, promising to
return in the year of Ce Acatl (One Reed).

Tezcatlipoca then made short work of the inhabitants of Tula.

This myth could possibly be a mythologically enhanced story of the
Aztec's conquest of the established tribes of the Valley of Mexico.  The
reports of strange omens in the reign of Montezuma II made the
superstitious king paranoid, and Cortez' arrival in the year of Ce Acatl
utterly convinced the emperor (at first) of the Spaniard's divinity.  

Parallels between the wise, good, bearded Quetzalcoatl and the wise,
good, bearded Jesus are relatively easy to draw.  An interesting note is
that there is no definitive proof that the Pre-Columbian Aztecs
considered Quetzalcoatl as having light skin, although Post-Conquest
tales state it as a given.

Any further info I can provide will be gladly spewed forth.

Matt. 
Newsgroups: alt.mythology
From: yozzo@watson.ibm.com (Ralph Yozzo)
Subject: Re: desperately seeking odin
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 19:53:58 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

In article <121500001@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM> reykja@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Reykja Sigurdsson) writes:
>>Hi...I would be interested in gathering stories from Norse mythology -- 
>>specifically about Odin. Please pass along any you might happen to remember
>>offhand. I would certainly appreciate it. 
>>
>>thanks...
If you'd like a good laugh, then Douglas Adam's "Long Dark Tea-time of the Soul"
(I believe that is the title) includes stories about Odin and Thor (or the
Mighty Tor as Adams as Thor call himself)

Ralph Yozzo
From: monaghan@carson.u.washington.edu (Tracy Monaghan)
Newsgroups: alt.mythology
Subject: Babylonian myths
Date: 14 Aug 92 00:08:03 GMT
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle

Seeking references for 'good' english versions of Enuma Elish (sp?) and
Gilgamesh myths.

Thanks
From: tffreeba@indyvax.iupui.edu
Newsgroups: alt.mythology
Subject: Re: The creation of Eve
Date: 14 Aug 92 04:25:18 GMT
Organization: Indiana University

To HOLFELTZ2LSTC2VM.stortec.com:

As you did not show all the textual deletions you made in my posting
I saw no reason to do so on yours.

I have read some Babylonian creation myths and I don't think I will
do anymore before I find out if I am in a scholarly discussion or
caught up in some NewAge stuff.

I am most interested in the Marduk/asteroid belt bit.  My understanding
is that the asteroids in the belt are primordial planetismals that
_failed_ to accrete into a planet due to gravitational perturbations 
caused by Jupiter. (pg 207 _The Cosmic Voyage: Through Time and Space_
William K Hartmann, 1990-- other references available if neede)
Thomas Freebairn
From: ingria@bbn.com (Bob Ingria)
Newsgroups: alt.mythology
Subject: Re: The creation of Eve
Date: 12 Aug 92 21:34:50 GMT
 <1992Aug9.124232.12247@discus.technion.ac.il>
 <168407E67.HOLFELTZ@LSTC2VM.stortek.com> <1992Aug11.185721.774@kbsw1>
 <1992Aug12.114301.1@indyvax.iupui.edu> <92225.125915TIP@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
Reply-To: ingria@BBN.COM
NNTP-Posting-Host: bbn.com
In-reply-to: TIP@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU's message of 12 Aug 92 20:59:15 GMT

In article <92225.125915TIP@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> TIP@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU writes:

   This goes back to the question of what evidence there is supporting the idea

   that the original creation myth was aimed at suppressing the matriarchal
   religions and societies of the time (which seem to have been much more
   widespread than modern anthropologists will often have you believe).  Not only
   was the woman to be blamed for the fall from grace, but so was the snake,
   the standard symbol of the female priestesses power.

It's not so much that snakes are ``the standard symbol of the female
priestesses power'', so much as that they are chthonic (earth)
symbols.  Philip Jose Farmer's simple statement of the battle as being
between ``the guy in the sky'' and ``the woman in the ground'' is
pretty much on the money.  The attributes of Satan in the Christian
mythos are essentially derived from chthonian entities:

Satan as serpent - snakes are usually venerated by archaic and
	classical agricultural societies; cf. the snake cult of Minoan
	Crete; the sacred serpent on the Acropolis; the serpent of
	Athena, etc.

The pitchfork - cf the trident of Poseidon, ``the earth shaker'' and
``earth holder''

The horns - reminiscent of the horns of bulls (cf. the ``Horns of
Consecration'' of Minoan Crete and the whole Minoan/Mycenaean bull
cult), goats, and other symbols of fertility.

The hooved feet - cf. Pan, who provides a good avatar for the figure
of Satan.

-30-
Bob
Newsgroups: alt.mythology
From: csmiller@watarts.uwaterloo.ca (Craig Miller)
Subject: Camelot?
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 18:43:22 GMT

The other day I came across a tattered scrap of paper which read:
   camelot-request@castle.edin... (the rest was torn off :(  )

I think this is/was a mailing list re King Arthur and Arthurian Legend.
Does anyone know if this list is still alive?  If it is, would someone mind 
mailing me the rest of the address?

Thanks,
Craig.
csmiller@watarts.uwaterloo.ca
From: pcorless@cisco.com (Peter Corless)
Newsgroups: alt.mythology
Subject: Re: Dog Mythos
Date: 13 Aug 92 00:48:28 GMT
Reply-To: pcorless@cisco.com (Peter Corless)
Organization: Computer Science Lab, SRI International
X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message are those of an
	      individual at SRI International, and do not necessarily
	      reflect those of the company.

In reply to post:
From: mmussell@fmgu25.intel.com (Morgan Mussell ~)
Subject: Re: Dog Mythos

>There is the Welsh tale of Gellert, who was a dog beloved of Llewellyn.  One
>day Llewellyn returns from hunting to find his only son's room in a shambles,
>and Gellert covered with blood.  In a rage, LLewellyn draws his sword and
>kills the dog...only then to hear his son's cry, and discover, near the
>overturned cradle, a huge wolf who had jumped through the window, that
>Gellert
>had killed at great cost to himself.  It is said that Gellert's sad eyes at
>the last moment haunted Llewellyn for the rest of his life.  The dog was
>buried in great honor, and there is still a spot in Snowdonia known as
>Beth Gellert, or Gellert's Grave.

There was a French movie a few year's back regarding this legend; the dog
had become venerated as a Christian saint (!), and a priest came to the
village to investigate the heresy. I can't remember the French title, or the
title it was distributed under in English, but it was a great movie. Anyone
else seen it?

-Pete.
From: mmussell@fmgu25.intel.com (Morgan Mussell ~)
Newsgroups: alt.mythology
Subject: Re: aranrhod & a request for information
Date: 12 Aug 92 15:49:08 GMT
Organization: Intel Corporation, Folsom, CA

>From: lilorenzin@apollo.davidson.edu (...FLAME)

>i'm looking for information on the celtic goddess aranrhod.  in my copy of the
>mabinogion, she is tentatively identified with a minor character goewin, math's
>virgin footholder, raped by gwydyon & gilvaethy.  the two women being
>originally one is offered as an explanation for the parentage of dylan & lleu. 
>my question is therefor - does anyone know of information supporting the
>conclusion drawn by this translator? 

There are no other primary texts, only similar speculation.  I find the tale
extremely haunting, but also a bit maddening, like a picture puzzle missing
several key pieces.

I'm not happy with the identification of Goewin and Aranrhod, since the former
is relatively powerless, and Aranrhod is quite the opposite; ruler of her own
caer, and a great factor in Lleu's growth, as a "worthy opponent."

I've heard speculation that Aranrhod is pregnant by 1) An Otherworldly being,
especially from the sea, which accounts for Dylan's affinity with it, and 2)
she is pregnant by Gwidion, ie, brother/sister incest, which is sometimes ok
for Dieties.

Perhaps the thought I like best is that the Fourth Branch is a bit scrambled
in the theme of an aged ruler (Math) who will loose his kingdom, and/or life
when a young woman (Aranrhod) is won by a young man.  (Clear statement of this
theme in Kilhooch and Olwen).

One way or another though, I guess these are tales for the imagination, not
the fact-finding mind.  I like Evangeline Walton's novelizations for this
very reason, very respectful imaginative amplifications of the four branches.

Morgan Mussell  mmussell@mcd.intel.com

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

"I was born unemployed -- it's what God intends for me."  - U. Utah Phillips

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: alt.mythology
From: blz1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Betsy L Zucker)
Subject: Re: Dog Mythos
Reply-To: blz1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Betsy L Zucker)
Organization: Columbia University
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 22:02:42 GMT



Thompson Motif B331 "Helpful animal killed through
misunderstanding" is a very widespread folklore motif that often
involves dogs.	The dog (or ferret, or mongoose or other domestic
animal) saves a baby from a snake, then is mistakenly killed by
the baby's parent.  The story of Llewellyn's dog is even given
it's own motif number under this heading:  B331.2 'Llewellyn and
his dog'.  This motif is found in European literary sources
throughout the middle ages and is very common in India.  In addition
to being a literary tale *and* an oral tale, it also occurs as an
urban legend -- it is told as (and may in some cases even be) a
true event in contexts that vary greatly in time and space.

The motif is related to a number of other 'helpful animals'
motifs and also to humans caught in the same predicament -- e.g.
AT 516 'Faithful John' in which a servant helps his master but is
under oath not to speak and is killed by the master who
mistakenly believes the servant is harming him.

And yes, I too saw the way cool French movie based on the dog
motif. (was its English title 'The Sorceress'?)

Reference:

	  Thompson, Stith
	    1946  _The Folktale_.  NY: Holt, Rinehart & Winston.
	    Pages 64, 112, 264.


           %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
             Jeff Zucker  c/o  <blz1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu>
           %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%



Newsgroups: alt.mythology
From: kbest@doc.novell.com (Karl Best)
Subject: Re: mormons
Organization: Novell, Inc.
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 12:13:01 GMT

In article <1992Aug21.024055.2478@honte.uleth.ca> std_beaulieu@hg.uleth.ca  
writes:
> at the risk of sounding defensive....i thin you are a rascist 
>        church. the legend if i may so term it of the lamanites in the 
[stuff deleted]
>        sorry.......we're not like that any more just isn't true, it is 
>        part of fundamental church dogma and had not changed. (unless 
>        you're thinking of bringing out a new version of the Book of 
>        Mormon).

When I said "not anymore" I was thinking specifically of the 1978 revelation  
doing away with the prohibition of blacks receiving the priesthood. Yes there  
are still problems, especially with the status of women in the church and the  
treatment of intellectuals. The treatment of Native Americans is somewhat as  
you state.

Perhaps this thread might best be taken offline, unless of course alt.myth  
readers want to hear it. I'll email a more complete response.

-Karl

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Karl Best                              Far away, across the field
Novell Tech Pubs           ...  __o    the tolling of the iron bell
Provo, Utah  801-429-3428 ..   -\<,    draws the faithful to their knees
kbest@doc.novell.com      ...(_)/(_).  to hear the softly spoken magic spell
karl_best@npd.novell.com                  -Roger Waters, Pink Floyd
From: jblain@ac.dal.ca
Newsgroups: alt.mythology
Subject: Re: Dog Mythos
Date: 16 Aug 92 04:05:26 GMT
Organization: Dalhousie University, Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

In article <1992Aug11.202400.21418@lunatix.uucp>, lmollett@lunatix.uucp (Laura Mollett) writes:
> 
> Different "dog" type names (like Cuchulainn) seem to be prevelent in the 
> Celtic languages (I think) similarly to Art = bear being an important name.
> And isn't a dog one of the forms forced on Gwydion by Math as a punishment
> in the Mabinogion? (mebbe not, I only really remember deer and wolf, but I'm
> sure there were three...guess I should go look it up :)
> 
> 		Later,
> 			Laura Mollett
> 
> 
There were three, but the other was a wild pig, not a dog.
Incidentally, Arthur's dog was Caball or Caval.
-- 

	Jenny		Jblain @ ac.dal.ca
__________________________________________________________________________
	I was in many shapes before I was released:
	.....
	I was a path, I was an eagle, I was a coracle in seas;
	I was a bubble in beer, I was a drop in a shower;
	I was a sword in hand, I was a shield in battle.
	I was a string in a harp enchanted nine years, in the water as foam;
	I was a spark in fire, I was wood in a bonfire;
	I am not one who does not sing; I have sung since I was small.

						[from The Book of Taliesin]
Newsgroups: alt.mythology