From: kgivon@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (karen lee givon)
Subject: Re: zionism in crisis
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 05:24:10 GMT

In article <74244@cup.portal.com> L-Bueno@cup.portal.com (Louis Alberto Bueno) writes:
>kgivon@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (karen lee givon) writes:
>>"wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com> writes:
>[...]
>>
>>I told you what I feel to be the main reason for discouraging
>>intermarriage.  
>
>	Hey, I'd like to hear it also!  Are you speaking of discouraging
>intermarriage for Jewish folk, or intermarriage in general?  Please, don't
>be shy...

Discouraging intermarriage in Judaism, in my opinion, is for self
preservation.  I've found that in many cases, Judaism is the religion
that takes the back seat in an interreligious marriage.  It eventually
becomes easier for the Jew involved to allow his/her child to follow the
religion of the majority.  It's too easy to be like everyone else. 
Anyway, this is my reason for disagreeing with Jews marrying non Jews.
 
>>>Muslims, Christians, and Buddhists do not constitute ethnic
>>>groups. Islam, Christianity and Buddhism are universalist belief
>>>systems which direct themselves to the human race at large
>>>without regard to ethnicity.
>>
>>Actually, Islam and Christianity have not only directed themselves to
>>the human race, but forced themselves on the human race.  Christianity
>>condemns all non Christians.  Islam does also, but to the extent that
>>Christianity does.  
>
>	I think you meant to say "not to the extent," right?

Right.  Sorry 'bout that.  

>	I agree, Christianity has been a scourge on the human race.  It's a
>Belief System (tm) perpetuated through money and violence, and the various
>conquests and inquisitions have surely left civilization bereft of many
>potential creative people.  

You're much harder on Christianity than I am.

Hmm... let me amend this to ALL religions, but
>certainly Christianity stands out in modern times.
>
>	Confused on my stand?  My mother is a catholic, so is my father.
>I'm an atheist.  I will not defend ANY religion.  You can label me
>"Christian" all you'd like, or a "self-hating Christian" but I would 
>prefer human being, if you don't mind. We can share *that* as a common 
>denominator, can't we? :-)

I'll label you whatever you want to be labelled.  
>
>>Maybe you should just stay away from us Jews if you have such
>>a problem with us.  I think we Jews would have been a lot better off
>>throughout history if more non Jews would have done this rather than try
>>to ram their beliefs down our throats (to quote a previous post of
>>yours). 
>
>	Therefore, Jewish people have not been known to wage wars based on
>their Belief System (tm)?  Remember, this is a question, not rhetoric, so
>please treat it as such.

If you mean self defense and self preservation then yes.  If you mean to
promote Judaism and force conversions then no.
>
>>>For instance, despite their ethnic and national differences,
>>>Irish Catholics, Italian Catholics, and German Catholics can find
>>>a common ground in their religious symbols.
>>
>>Ethiopian Jews, American Jews, and Yemenite Jews find a common ground in
>>their religious symbols.  What'our point?  
>
>	From what I have read of Ethiopian Jews in Israel, only a small
>number have been allowed to immigrate into Israel, while Russian Jews have
>been able to rain down aplenty.  I do understand that both groups have had
>great difficulty finding meaningful jobs and proper housing, but I've also
>understand that the Ethiopian Jews have been sequestered in the remote
>lands of Israel.  Care to comment?

I've seen Ethiopians all over Israel.  I believe there is a large
community of Ethiopians in Tiberius (?).  This is certainly not remote.
Ethiopians and Russians have been placed wherever there's room. 

>>>But how can Judaism provide a common ground between Israel and
>>>the nations, between Jews and other major ethnic groups, when it
>>>is centered so strongly on Israel and Jews alone?
>>
>>Who else should Jews center on?  We don't spend all our time and energy
>>worrying about other religions and whether or not they're doing the
>>right thing.  It is really not my business to criticize another religion
>>unless the beliefs directly affect me, and many beliefs do,
>>unfortunately.  
>
>	I believe the statement you've responded to is attempting to 
>indicate the perceived isolationism of Israel by the Western world. Since
>"ethnic groups" and not "religions" is the subject of the common ground,
>your response is misguided.  I do believe any nation, not just Israel,
>*should* be searching for a common ground between other nations. Using
>one's enemies as an excuse not to pursue such is simply thinly-veiled
>isolationism, and possibly at worst, xenophobic.

I really don't think my statement was at all xenophobic.  If you knew
anything about me, you'd know that I am anything but xenophobic.
>
>>>If there are ethnic elements in Islam which I have overlooked,
>>>please bring them to my attention. Islam does not strike me as
>>>being primarily ethnocentric in nature.
>>
>>Every group of people is ethnocentric.  A group would not continue to
>>exist without some degree of ethnocentrism.  That is a matter of human
>>nature.  It's a bit like rooting for your own school's football team.
>>Why would you root for another team?
>
>	I myself root for the Human Race team.  Believe it or not, some of
>us do think that all of us have a lot in common.  Not adhering to a
>religion or ethnic culture does not make you any less a proud individual
>that is part of this rich tapestry we call humanity.  Unless, of course,
>persecution or isolationism is what you're looking for as a way of life.

You have either misunderstood me or twisted my words.  If I have to
choose between my team and someone else's I choose mine.  I did not say
that one has to be part of a specific culture to be proud, but if you
if you are a member of a specific culture (which everyone is) you should
be proud of it, even if that culture has faults (which all do).
 
>>>In the bookstore the other day I took a glance at Joseph
>>>Telushkin's Jewish Literacy. He comments on page 625: "It is
>>>estimated that five to ten thousand non-Jews convert to Judaism
>>>annually in the United States." 
>>
>[...]
>>You know something, Wayne, it really isn't important to me whether or
>>not we have a large number of converts.  Judaism does not actively seek
>>converts as Christianity does.  This is one thing I like so much about
>>Judaism.  We don't sit around condemning others to Hell because they
>>don't have the same beliefs as we do.
>
>	What's wrong with you???  Jesus is the path to salvation! :-)

Uh huh...so I've heard (over and over and over again)  

>>>If Judaism is a modern universalistic religion that transcends
>>>ethnicity, this is clearly not a message that has gotten through
>>>to the world, as judged by its eagerness to convert.
>>
>>Is this important?  Would you like for us to go out on the streets and
>>hound people, begging them to convert?  Or maybe we should go door to
>>door.  Maybe r Rabbis should preach that the more heathens we convert
>>the better chance we have of getting to Heaven, (something I heard once
>>in a Baptist church)>
>
>	Different Christian-based religions describe differing paths to
>Heaven (or Paradise), depending on the interpretation of both Testaments.
>Your mileage may vary.

I said specifically Baptist, didn't I?  I'm sure there must be some
denomination of Christianity that does not involve evangelism.  (I could
be wrong about that)     
 
>>>Combining ethnocentrism with religion with nationalism strikes me
>>>as a volatile proposition. All three factors can be forces for
>>>great divisiveness in the world, separately and most assuredly in
>>>combination. Many of Israel's worsening problems are the product
>>>of its ideological presuppositions, concepts which perhaps need
>>>to be rationally examined more than emotionally defended in a
>>>knee-jerk fashion.
>>
>>Wayne, what do you want from us?  Do you want us to totally change all
>>aspects of Judaism so that more people will want to convert?
>>Christianity did this, didn't it?   Have you noticed that Judaism is the
>>oldest monotheistic religion?  Have you noticed that we have survived
>>attrocities that no other group has been subjected to?  We must be doing
>>something right, we're still here.  
>
>	I don't know what Wayne wants from what you define as "us," other
>than what he's asked for (rational examination of Israel's ideological
>presuppositions), but I know what I want; a non-emotional explanation of
>the ongoing brutalization of a non-Jewish people by a people who themselves
>were once brutalized.  Atrocities by any other name are still atrocities.

I assume you are talking about Palestinians.  Israel does not
"brutalize" them because they are non Jews, but for reasons of security
and, again, self preservation.  (I am not saying I agree with everything
Israel does) 

>>Keren
>>>---
>>>  OLX 3.01 31-2557  Lilys: In the Presence of Nothing
>>>--
>>>Channel 1 (R)   Cambridge, MA
>
>Regards,
>
>--Louis

Keren