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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Date:         Wed, 30 Dec 1992 12:13:54 PST
From:         Jonathan Fisher <jfisher@NETXWEST.COM>
Subject:      Re: nambla
Comments: To: POLITICS@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu

Brett' broaches an interesting topic...
> >> Sam said ...
> >> I think it's unfair to mention NAMBLA in a company of unsavory groups.
> >> I believe that there is nothing wrong about loving children (that's
> >> all NAMBLA is about). It is wrong to molest children, but not to love
> >> them, even sexually. NAMBLA is created as a support group for people
> >> who are attracted to children. It is not a cabal of child molesters.
> >>
> >> Sam.
> >>
> >I don't know about the rest of you, but this whole paragraph is a
> >mass of contradictions to me.  Please explain to me how one could
> >have sex with children but not be molesting them.
> >Jonathan
>
>         It would depened on whether you thought people of a certain age were
> competent to make such a decision.
>         On a broader subject, just when should we treat kids like adults?
 I've
> known some 16 year olds that were more mature than people twice their age.
>         What about two 17-year olds that have sex?  Two 15-year olds?  Who is
> doing the molesting in that case?
>
>         Personally, I think the blanket coverage of everyone below 18 as being
> irresponsible (in the legal sense) to be incorrect, but can't think of any way
> around it.  Kids do need protection against those who would defraud or harm
> them, but then again everyone does.  When can we determine that a person can
> make their own decisions?  There is no test for it.  In today's world, I'd
> argue that most 16 year olds are mature enough to make their own decisions.
>
>         Perhaps what we need is a "declaration of adulthood" that people can
> make at whatever age they want, defaulting at 21.  That way it's up to the
> individual to decide.
>
>         I'm aware that people can go to court now and achieve the same thing,
> but that's a bit of trouble for everyone to go through.
>
> Brett'
>
Interesting thought.  First to apply to the initial paragraph by Sam. Nambla
talks specifically about sex with children, i.e. they don't feel that the
government ought to be involved and that people ought to make up their own
mind, regardless of age.  I think that is dangerously mistaken.

Now to the more general topic, when does one become adult enough to make
adult decisions.  When I think about this question, it's usually when I
hear about a 15 year-old charged with some vicious murder.  I think to myself,
what causes someone to do that?  Like that 14 year-old girl who is in the
news now who wrote in her diary that she suffocated her 4 year-old sister.
What is going on in her mind?  Does she have to be treated like an adult
and serve serious time in a federal institition with real adults or
should she serve some time in juvenile prison.  I think of the "wilding
case" in New York where a bunch of teenagers brutally raped and nearly
beat to death a jogger and then expressed no remorse.  Do they get juvenile
prison or time in a federal institution.  I don't know.  I think that they
way most laws run is probably the best way.  Somewhere around 15, the courts
examine whether the person is mature enough to know what they were doing and
if so, they are tried as an adult. In other words, on a case by case basis.
This seems to be the best way.  But I have rambled.
Brett' talked about sex between teenagers.  Despite laws on the books in
many states, it's pretty obvious that teenagers have sex.  What about sex
between a 19 year-old and a 15 year-old?  I don't
know.  Sex between a 25 year-old and a 15 year-old?  Getting tricky.  Sex
between a 35 year-old and a 15 year-old?  I think that it's wrong, but
where's the line?
I agree with you Brett', "the blanket coverage of everyone below 18 as being
irresponsible" is incorrect.  But, I too, can't think of anyway around it.

I can't abide your "declaration of adulthood" though.  I am sure that when
I was very young (13, 14), I would have thought that I could be an adult.
Especially since I had a bar mitzvah, which in Jewish tradition and maybe
law in Israel, I don't know, says that you are an adult.  Maybe if one could
get a couple of adults to certify that the person in question is mature
enough....
But then I think (not to get too off-track but..) there should
be a "certification of not-ready-for-adulthood".  These could be given to
anyone who is definitely too immature to deal with the real world.  That
could be fun!

Jonathan
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