From: russ@wpg.com (Russell Lawrence)
Subject: Re: Should humans assign "status"?
Organization: WP Group
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1992 04:03:21 GMT

In article <BvGKrH.I9H@wpg.com> russ@wpg.com (Russell Lawrence) writes:
rl> The existence or non-existence of universal absolutes has no bearing
rl> on the discussion.   It's a cop-out, Rich.

From article <1992Oct1.222738.23594@pixel.kodak.com>, by young@serum.kodak.com:
ry> Oh?  From what?  If there is no absolute from which your ethics
ry> spring, then I am free to develop my own.

You're free to develop your own ideas, but their truth or falsity
won't be alterred by the existence or non-existence of "cosmic"
absolutes.   As an example, you could argue that it's ok to kill
animals with black fur, but not-ok to kill animals with beige fur.
Do you think such arguments would make sense simply because there
is or isn't a universal absolute?

ry> The cop-out here is your continued failure to supply any answers to
ry> the very questions I've been asking regarding the source of your
ry> ethics.  I'll ask them again, just in case you've [conveniently]
ry> forgotten again: ...
ry>
ry> 1. Define "meaning" as you've used it in this discussion...

Sure Rich.  Here's my definition (once again) for anyone who
didn't see it when I posted it in response to your previous queries:

=====================================================================
From article <1992Sep4.151731.19369@pixel.kodak.com>, by young@serum.kodak.com:
ry> The question asked you to define "meaning" as you've used it in
ry> this context.  You have not yet complied.  You have, instead,
ry> continued to resort to using the term without defining it.  You've
ry> said that a "meaningful existence" isn't possible without sentience/
ry> sapience but you have yet to tell us exactly what constitutes a
ry> "meaningful existence."

I replied:  Message-ID: <Bu2Jno.7Bx@wpg.com>
These terms are defined in the dictionary, Rich.  "Sentience" 
designates sensory abilities, namely the ability of an entity to 
gather information about its own being as well as its 
environment.  "Sapience" designates the cognitive abilities that 
permit an entity to process and analyze information.  The word,
"meaningful", is a catch-all term that designates significance 
or purpose.

Let's review the ethical importance of "meaningful" existence. 
Without the qualities of sentience and sapience, existence would 
be perceptually and cognitively meaningless to a ball-bearing, 
and hence it would be impossible to deprive it in any way.  We 
could do it no harm if we whack it with hammers, or melt it down, 
or deal with it as we choose.  On the otherhand, existence is 
meaningful to a healthy chimpanzee, who possesses the ability to 
perceive his own being as well as the world around him.  Hence, 
we ought to think about the impact that our actions may have on 
him or her.  
=====================================================================

ry> 2. Who, or what, gave you the authority to assign status to non-human
ry>     species?

Sure Rich.   Here's my response.

From Message-ID: <BuuEID.6I7@wpg.com>:
=====================================================================
ry> 2. By what authority do you presume to assign "status" to non-human species
ry>    based on sentience/sapience?

I don't assign "status", Rich.  The meaning/significance that 
life has for other entities is dependent on their 
thinking/feeling faculties, not on my perception of those 
faculties.  To the extent that I recognize that a being thinks or 
feels, I'm not "assigning" attributes, but recognizing the 
attributes that exist within the being.  
=====================================================================

ry> 3. By what absolute, significant-to-all-species criteria do you attach
ry>    ethical importance to the death of some species and not others?

What species did you have in mind, Rich?

ry> 4. Why, if your criteria are not absolute, am I 'wrong' to develop my
ry>     ethics [in this area] using some other criteria?

As I said, you're free to develop your own ideas.  Whether they'll
make sense or not is another matter altogether.

-- 
Russell Lawrence, WP Group, New Orleans (504) 443-5000
russ@wpg.com   uunet!wpg!russ
Newsgroups: talk.politics.animals