From: shamshoo@shelley.u.washington.edu (Shams Hasan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
Subject: Re: Elite ..... My Foot!
Date: 10 Jan 1993 07:23:37 GMT
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: shelley.u.washington.edu
Summary: sure, now we are beating around the bush............
Keywords: Hang loose on the Caboose !

In article <1993Jan9.222614.15133@newton.ccs.tuns.ca> jamalin@newton.ccs.tuns.ca (Nadeem Jamali) writes:
>In article <1indj2INNduf@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> khan@ces.cwru.edu (Mansoor Khan) writes:
>>Nadeem Jamali writes....
>>
>>>In article <1il69oINNosn@shelley.u.washington.edu> shamshoo@shelley.u.washington.edu (Shams Hasan) writes:
>>>>In article <1993Jan8.155423.11614@newton.ccs.tuns.ca> jamalin@newton.ccs.tuns.ca (Nadeem Jamali) writes:
>>>
>>>.... (previous postings deleted)
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Not to suggest that Jam Sadiq Ali or his son Mashooq are not corrupt. The
>>>>>fact remains that Jam Sadiq's father Jam Kambhu Khan was the richest man in
>>>>>Sindh. Jam Sadiq never needed any money of any kind... and I'm sure his
>>>>>son doesn't either.
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Mansoor Khan
>>>>>>Cleveland
>>>>>>>					Saqib Mausoof 
>>>>>>
>>>>>Nadeem
>>>>>-- 
>>>>>Nadeem Jamali                                     jamalin@newton.ccs.tuns.ca
>>>>>						 
>>>>>School of Computer Science			  
>>>>>Technical University of Nova Scotia		  (902)420-7527  
>>>>
>>>>Dear Nadeem,
>>>>
>>>>If Jam Sadiq never needed any money, what was his accomplishments in the
>>>>public service ? May be you can throw some light on that. I think you seem
>>>>to have an inside track on the backgrounds of Vaderaas/Zamindaars.
>>>>
>>>>Also, while you are responding, please allow us the knowledge of where did
>>>>the richest man in Sind made his wealth and if you know, how ?
>>>>
>>>>I think many of us would like to know and may benefit by it. 
>>>
>>
>>>The family has been rich for generations... so it is not right to say that
>>>they became rich by bungling Government money. As regards how they 
>>	OK, they did not need the government money, but why did they 
>>	take  it. Why all these khandani riches are so greedy.
>>	What is the limit to their desire for wealth.
>>	WHy did he take rishvats if he did not need money. 
>>	Any Analysis?
>>
>
>You may be wrong there. Are you sure he did take the money?
>
>>
>>>initially became rich, before trying to answer this question I'll question
>>>its pertinence. Do we challenge people's right to be rich? We aren't communists
>>>are we? Similarly Sir Shahnawaz Bhutto was a rich person himself. These people
>>>had palacious houses before Z.A. Bhutto ever joined politics. Au contraire,
>>>people like Ghulam Mustafa Jatoi were no body before taking public office.
>>>I know this family a little bit more than others do. Ghulam Mustafa used to
>>>stand outside tapedars' offices with boxes of mangoes. Look at the progress
>>>they've made :)
>>
>>Jatoi is a strange dude. He has been with PPP, against PPP, with PPP,
>>against PPP, with PPP........ and it goes on.
>>
>>
>
>The interesting thing is that he is not even strange... he's become so
>predictable.
>
>>>What happenned to Karachi's parks? well, go ask the Jamaat-e-Islami. They
>>>were controlling KMC weren't they?
>>	I am not sure if KMC was being managed by jamat-e-islami in 1970's.
>>	It is 1970's, during Zulfiqar Bhutto's rule, that Jam Sadiq as
>>	Sindh's Vazeer-e-Baldiyaat sold parks etc. for plazas and apt. buildings	An example is a huge plot of land, which was marked as a park
>>	and sports ground, between M.A. Jinnah Road and Jamshed Road,
>>	before the Jail and after Islamia College and Dawood College,
>>	and across M.A.J. Road from Muslimabad.
>
>When you say "Jam Sadiq sold parks etc.", it reminds me of a guy in my class at
>Habib, Karachi. If I'm not wrong, it was Saleem Islam. Anyway, a few days
>after Bhutto's execution, he told me that Bhutto had sold Pakistan to USA...
>hence, he deserved a punishment :) I am not saying that Jam Sadiq was not
>a corrupt person. He was. But how do you mean that he sold the land. If I'm
>not very wrong, KMC is an elected body and the land that has been designated
>for parks and stuff cannot be sold without KMC's approval. Since KMC is 
>elected by Karachiites alone, they themselves are responsible for who they
>voted for. Why doesn't anyone blame Karachi Municipal Coorporation for anything.
>
>I know about the Kehkashan area in Clifton where most/all of the parks
>were sold during Zia's period.. and most certainly KMC was under Jamat.
>KMC gave permits to people for building highrises where they were
>prohibited. 
>
>>	It is close to where Green Wood, Little Folks, and Grand Folks
>>	school used to be. In early 1970's it used to be the
>>	PARAAO of khanaa-badoshs every year in winter time( I guess) for
>>	a short while. No more park there. No more Cricket ground there.
>>	Only apt. buildings and houses. Thanks to the Jam of whatever.
>>	One reason of all this bullshit going on in Karachi in last
>>	several years is the lack of sports and recreation facilities
>>	for the kids and youth. Instead of parks and play grounds
>>	they play on streets, get killed by car or a minibus driven
>>	by some poor driver..... and here we go, we have riots.
>
>That's an oversimplification. The main problem is that Karachiites in
>general do not have a civic sense. During riots and stuff they do not
>think for once that what they are breaking belongs to them... because 
>they know that it will be re-built anyway. They throw dirt on the streets,
>don't follow any rules while driving, don't even look before crossing 
>even a busy road like Shahrah-e-Faisal. Government spent so much money
>to build those pedesterian bridges for people's safety. No one uses them.
>They are fighting a war against the system. They try everything to 
>break the system... when it does break down, they start complaining. 
>And then we see the state of the city that was once the cleanest city in
>the world, the city of lights, Karachi.
>
>		me(n) jis shehr ke geet gaata raha
>		ab us shehr mai(n) kyoo(n) raha ja'ay na
>
>			sukhan dard ka ab kaha ja'ay na
>
>							[NOT ME]
>
>>	>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>Mansoor Khan
>>Cleveland, Ohio 
>
>Nadeem
>
>-- 
>Nadeem Jamali                                     jamalin@newton.ccs.tuns.ca
>						 
>School of Computer Science			  
>Technical University of Nova Scotia		  (902)420-7527  


Dear Nadeem Jamali,

You and Mansoor seem to be playing, hide and seek. You are hiding and Mansoor
seems to be seeking after whatever you are trying to hide.

Corruption comes from the top. If you donot believe in that, than you donot
understand the leadership quality of any kind that comes with being the
head/governor/director etc, of this and that.

Karachi is in Sindh. Jam of this and Jam of that, as well as others are people
of very large amounts of wealth and influence in Karachi and in other areas of
Sindh. How they make their wealth is still something of a mystery. 

Even if that wealth is coming down from generations, there has to be some sort
of taxation, and accountability made known to the general public.  That is what
is lacking and no amount of hide and seek can accomplish that.

Secondly, how many of these old money millionaires have educated the population
of Sindh, that includes Karachi, via schools, training centers, parks, 
recreation facilities, etc, etc, etc, all the parts that make a developed
and progressive society.

When the masses living in Liaqatabad, Lyari, Nazimabad, and other middle and
lower middle class areas donot get their voices heard, their representatives
given any authority in using Taxation and other revenue from Karachites,
their cars, motorcycles searched and stopped indiscriminantly by Police, and
they see the Jams of this and Jam of that partying obscenely in their
city castles and riding around in Pajeros with armed bodygaurds all over the
place, they get a little bit irritated.

Maybe you should go, like I did five years ago, and stay around these areas
and talk to the people who are in a no-win situation and know it too. Or
to a small basti in Sindh, and live like they live and not as a king, like I
witnessed when my good Vadera friend took me with beer/guns in the Pajero to
show off his Ghulaams/Slaves and gardens of this and that.

Please draw some inference from the reality, you guys, rather than living in
the past and blaming this and that.


Best Regards,
Shams Hasan.