HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.circplus
Date:         Thu, 17 Dec 1992 15:56:30 MST
              <CIRCPLUS@IDBSU.BITNET>
From:         Dan Lester <ALILESTE@IDBSU.BITNET>
Subject:      CHAT: ejunkie/listowner returns, sorta
              13 Dec 1992 23:02:22 GMT from <trumpins@ALEXIA.LIS.UIUC.EDU>

On Sun, 13 Dec 1992 23:02:22 GMT Barbara Trumpinski said:
>>Just check the time of the message.  If it is outside of
>>usual working hours, you will know that you are reading the words of one
>>with a 'digital' dependency problem.

   this is during 'working hours' but i'm on sick leave....

>what is REALLY scary is netting before breakfast...during break...as
>soon as you get home from work...before bed...and in the middle of the
>night when you get up to go to the bathroom and  get a drink of water.

   i do all of those, except the last....unless i can't get back to sleep.

>i can do this....i have a dec vt-52 sitting on my kitchen table.

   well, i have a 486/66 and 14.4k modem sitting in front of me, in
the 'home office'.  8-)   does make life simpler....though am more than a
little behind in email....have had two eye surgeries since thanksgiving,
and probably shouldn't be looking at the screen THIS much even....but....
when you got the habit......

dan

*****************************************************************************
* Dan Lester                          Bitnet:   alileste@idbsu              *
* Associate University Librarian      Internet: alileste@idbsu.idbsu.edu    *
* Boise State University                                                    *
* Boise, Idaho  83725                 BSU and I have a deal: I don't speak  *
* 208-385-1234                        for them and they don't speak for me. *
*****************************************************************************
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.circplus
Date:         Fri, 18 Dec 1992 08:19:45 CST
              <CIRCPLUS@IDBSU.BITNET>
From:         "R.A. PUTZKE" <RUPD@RICEVM1.RICE.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Don't accept collect calls
              16 Dec 92 10:09:30 CST from <MARTIN@ricevm1.rice.edu>

Ginny-
      I need more details on this.  I would like to know who this happened to
or what university experienced this.

                                    thanks, R. A. "Ivan" Putzke
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.circplus
Date:         Thu, 17 Dec 1992 07:01:00 EST
              <CIRCPLUS@IDBSU.BITNET>
From:         GEFFNER@SJC.BITNET
Subject:      Creativity

Our professional staff members who work during "closed" periods/holidays
get comp. time.  However, our hourly staff gets paid according to college
rules: that means they get double time and 1/2 for the day.  Thus, we hourly
workers tend to enjoy working the holidays (plus there's nothing to do in
public services except chat since almost no patrons showing up; maybe next
time we'll bring in a VCR!)

Our one problem is closed periods that don't count as a holiday.  Our director
was recently on the phone arguing with payroll about paying a Sat. worker for
the day plus for the hours she worked.  It did get through: perhaps whoever
is in charge of the library budget would authorize the additional money.

I thought the pizza idea someone mentioned was pretty good.

Ann Williams
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.csg-l
Date:         Tue, 15 Dec 1992 19:28:22 EST
From:         mmt@BEN.DCIEM.DND.CA
Subject: Re: PCT and war

[Martin Taylor 921215]  Back on the Internet, with 70 unread messages!
(Bill Powers 921213.1730)

>>Escalation is always a problem, witness what is happening in
>>the cities. Just exactly why I want to have better decision
>>making in Govt AND in Defense.
>
>Yes. Control theory shows why conflicts tend to escalate. It is
>the nature of conflicting control systems to raise their opposing
>outputs to the maximum possible level. The only permanent
>solution is to resolve, not win, the conflicts.

Why, then, do most species stop fighting short of lethality, whereas
humans are among the very few who don't?  The argument from integrating
output would seem to suggest that all species should fight to the death
in the case of an unresolvable conflict (can't both have this doe).

Giving up seems to be the most common way of ending conflicts.  One
participant "decides" that winning is unlikely, and concedes.  Humans
are considered wimpish, cowardly, poor specimens, if they follow that
sensible rule.  I would have thought that if humans have more levels of
control systems in their hierarchy, they would be more able to avoid or
resolve conflict than would other species; at least a naive application
of HPCT would seem to lead to that conclusion.

Martin
From: TBOURBON@UTMBEACH.BITNET (Tom Bourbon)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.csg-l
Subject: RE: N/A and Oslo
Date: 16 Dec 92 14:43:00 GMT
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Original_cc:  TBOURBON

From Tom Bourbon (921216  09:40 CST)

Dag Forssell (921216  09:38)

No, Oslo is where they give the prizes for the unheard of in science.
And to think, I was gicing my grown children a hard time about their
declining knowledge of geography!  Glad to have someone like you who
will go ahead and tell me my geographic fly is unzipped!

Warm regards,
   Tom Bourbon
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.csg-l
Date:         Tue, 15 Dec 1992 01:07:01 -0600
From:         Tom Bourbon <TBOURBON@BEACH.UTMB.EDU>
Subject:      Re: War and PCT

From: Tom Bourbon  (921215  00:48)

[gabriel to powers 921214 11:35 CST]

>Subject:      PCT and war

Actually, this is a request for information.  The following remark
occurred during your musings in "PCT and war:"

>How do you learn to spot those small mistakes soon enough without
>millennia of Darwin backing you up? Increasingly critical problem
>when communication works faster, and those who have been applying
>PCT in advertising agencies have a substantial hand in deciding
>who gets to be president and C in C. Perhaps it was better when it
>took three months to go from Oregon to Washington to kick butt of
>elected rep.

"... those who have been applying PCT in advertising agencies have
a substantial hand in deciding who gets to be president and C in
C."

I collect citations of PCT and I am always looking for new areas in
which PCT is applied.  I have not seen, perhaps because I never
looked for them, applications of PCT in advertising.  I would like
to add that specimen to my collection.  Can you provide a few
specific citations and examples?

Until later,

Tom Bourbon                             e-mail:
Magnetoencephalography Laboratory       TBOURBON@UTMBEACH.BITNET
Division of Neurosurgery, E-17          TBOURBON@BEACH.UTMB.EDU
University of Texas Medical Branch      PHONE  (409) 763-6325
Galveston, TX 77550                     FAX    (409) 762-9961 USA
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.csg-l
Date:         Fri, 11 Dec 1992 17:52:00 CST
From:         TJ0WAH1@NIU.BITNET
Subject:      conceptual and perceptual EVs

[from Wayne Hershberger]

Rick and Bill:

      (Bill Powers 921210)  You (Rick Marken 921209) made a good
      point to Wayne: "What's wrong with guessing that there is an
      EV that is distinct and causally a priori to the process of
      perception if the assumption works?"

What is wrong is supposing that the conceptual EVs are not part of
the model of the perceptual process!  The light-ray tracings in
Bill's little stick man simulation comprise an integral part of
what works!  And, if this screen were not luminous you wouldn't be
perceiving this.

This is not to say that our perceptual EVs (what you refer to as
the things perceived to be "out there") need correspond to the
conceptual EVs in our scientific models, but only that the
perceptual EVs and the conceptual EVs are lawfully related to each
other (I gather we agree fully on this point).  That relationship
is the basis of empiricism.  It is this lawful relationship that
allows us to use our perceptual EVs to test our conceptual EVs in
scientific experiments.  Science does not address the question of
whether our conceptual EVs (making sense of the immanent order)
correspond to those of some divine conceiver (God or Boss).  Not
only does the immanent order have many more degrees of freedom
than we can perceive, it may have more degrees of freedom than we
can conceive.


Mark Olson (re: 921210)

If you are asking whether we control subjective or objective
variables, I would say both: perceptual EVs, considered
immediately, are subjective, but they are also, potentially,
objective.  Further, if the control of an objective physical
variable (i.e., a conceptual EV) by the simultaneous control of
two subjective variables involves conflict between the latter
subsystems, the subsystem controlling the "more objective"
subjective variable will tend to dominate and/or reorganize the
other one.

If you are looking at something through a wedge prism, your gaze
will be directed toward a displaced virtual image of the object.
And if you reach out slowly to touch it, you will start reaching
out toward the virtual location, but only until you can see your
hand--thereafter you will begin to align the retinal images of
your hand and the object like Bill's little stick-man.  Further,
if we do this repeatedly, the "error" during the initial part of
the reach will diminish--and when the wedge prisms are removed a
negative aftereffect is observed.

Warm regards, Wayne


Wayne A. Hershberger             Work: (815) 753-7097
Professor of Psychology
Department of Psychology         Home: (815) 758-3747
Northern Illinois University
DeKalb IL 60115                  Bitnet: tj0wah1@niu
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.csg-l
Date:         Wed, 16 Dec 1992 15:58:07 EST
From:         Avery Andrews <andaling@FAC.ANU.EDU.AU>
Subject:      Re: Presenting PCT

[Avery Andrews 921216.1551]
 Rick Marken (921215.2000)

I agree that statistics without models is not nice if there is a reasonable
prospect of doing better.  But I also think that just complaining about
it doesn't accomplish much. Like, it hasn't, has it?

Perhaps, naively, I think that if people see concrete prospects for doing
better in areas (*not* methodologies, but big questions, like `how do
people manage to get their hands to their coffee cups', or `how do people
manage to give and get directions for getting to places) that they are
interested in, they might go along.  But then the powers of obscurantism
are deep and potent, so maybe they won't.

Back to my Xwindows fun & games (I've managed to animate a vertical bar,
moving horizontally -- a *long* way from a working arm, but here's hoping
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.csg-l
Date:         Sun, 13 Dec 1992 16:00:41 PST
From:         Ray Allis 5-3583 <ray@ESPRESSO.BOEING.COM>
Subject:      Re: Olive Branch

[Ray Allis - 921213.1530 (pst, that's how I can respond to a future message.
 :-)]

> [gabriel to powers 921213 16:52 CST]

> If you want, let's debate off line, but perhaps just let it drop.

I'd like very much to see this sort of conversation continue.  Of
course I understand that this may be impossible because such
'tangential' traffic may strain many people's budget for e-mail storage
and cost.  But I'm interested in the differences in philosophies (as in
"How does the world work?") developed by people with differing life
experiences, and it seems to me this insight should help illuminate
your (our) attempts to build actual real-world models.  After all, it's
_minds_ that we're trying to understand isn't it?

> Happy Christmas, and much delight in all the good things of life,
> including the grandkids.

Indeed.
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.csg-l
Date:         Wed, 16 Dec 1992 16:05:22 PST
From:         Ray Allis 5-3583 <ray@ESPRESSO.RT.CS.BOEING.COM>
Subject:      "a hierarchical network of control systems" ?

[ I am still often surprised at how little an abstract tells you.  And it's
  fascinating how a small variation in word choice and arrangement can
  allow a large variation in interpretation.  Is it possible that
  Harry Klopf is talking about anything like HPCT?  Is he already on this
  net?  Ray Allis 921216.1600 ]

>                        Alife Digest, Number 091
>                     Wednesday, December 16th 1992
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 16 Dec 92 12:43:41 JST
> From: degaris@etl.go.jp (Hugo de Garis)
> Subject: SAB92 Report, Hugo de Garis (ETL, Japan)
>
> Dear ALifers,
>                 Here is a report on the recent SAB92 conference in Hawaii.
> Hope you can use it in your ALife email network.
>
> Cheers,
>         Hugo de Garis.
>
>                              SAB92 Report
>
> Simulation of Adaptive Behavior SAB92 Conference, Hawaii, 7-11 Dec 1992.
>
>                                   by
>
>                           Hugo de Garis
>
>                     Electrotechnical Lab (ETL)
>                               Japan

[ couple hundred lines removed ...Ray]

> Harry Klopf's (Wright Lab) "Modelling Nervous System Function with a
> Hierarchical Network of Control Systems that Learn". (Part of) Abstract -
> "A computational model of nervous system function during classical and
> instrumental conditioning is proposed. The model assumes the form of a
> hierarchical network of control systems. Each control system is capable of
> learning and is referred to as an associative control process (ACP). Learning
> systems consisting of ACP networks, employing the drive reinforcement learning
> mechanism (Klopf 1988) and engaging in real time, closed loop, goal seeking
> interactions with environments, are capable of being classically and
> instrumentally conditioned, as demonstrated by means of computer simulations".
> This paper felt important, and that it made more than the usual incremental
> contribution to the field. Klopf's neural network hierarchies actually LEARN.
> If there had been a best paper award, my vote would have gone to Klopf.
>
> End of ALife Digest
> *******************
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.csg-l
Date:         Wed, 16 Dec 1992 09:10:52 EST
From:         Avery Andrews <andaling@FAC.ANU.EDU.AU>
Subject:      Presenting PCT

[Avery.Andrews921216.09109]
 (Rick Marken (921214.2200))

 > I think both of these comments represent the same misconception about
 > PCT --

I disagree.  If someone accepts (a) that they don't understand
feedback as well as they thought they dud (b) feedback mechanisms are
much more central in the organization of behavior than is generally
supposed, the rest follows.  E.g. that it's a significant achievment
to predict tracking behavior for one whole minute, that we ought
to try to find out what Aplysia is controlling for, etc.  Even if this
assessment is overly optimist, surely people who have begun to suspect
 the truth of (a & b) will be more sympathetic reviewers of PCT
papers, & more likely to recommend funding of this kind of research.
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.csg-l
Date:         Fri, 11 Dec 1992 12:53:32 -0600
Comments:     Warning -- original Sender: tag was cziko@UX1.CSO.UIUC.EDU
From:         "Gary A. Cziko" <g-cziko@UIUC.EDU>
Subject:      Perception

[from Gary Cziko 921211.1544 GMT]

Bill Powers (921210.1900), thanks so much for explaining how:

>We can set up a model
>environment in which there are several variables -- "v's." The input
>function can produce a perceptual signal that is any weighted sum of
>these variables, arbitrarily weighted. Then we can set up the output so
>that it affects these variables either positively or negatively as
>required for negative feedback, but all by the same amount, proportional
>to the integral of the error signal. This control system will proceed to
>control its perceptual signal just as if there were a single external
>variable corresponding to it. If any or all of the v's are disturbed,
>singly or in any combinations, the perceptual signal will be maintained
>close to the given reference signal by an appropriate change in the
>output effects on all the variables. . . .

>So this control system experiences an entity in the environment that
>does not in fact exist there. It is creating the entity. Nevertheless,
>the behavior of the environment is lawfully and reliably related to the
>perceptual signal, as long as the form of the input function remains the
>same.

Bill, I can't believe that this was staring me in the face all the time and
I never realized it.  Have you made this point explicitly before?  If so,
how did I miss it?

This will go a long way to help me start sorting out my problems in
understanding how perception works, particularly concerning its bottom-up
vs. top-down nature and the issue of whether perceptions are "transmitted"
from the environment to us via our sense organs or "constructed" deep in
the brain (I think the answer is both "neither" and "both").

Rick (Marken), do you remember how at the Indiana PA meeting in 1990 you
were wondering how Ed Ford could say that we create our perceptual world?
I believed you grabbed a chair and made comments about how you couldn't
arbitrarily create or "uncreate" its perception.  Isn't Bill's comment
directly related to this issue.--Gary


------------------------------------------------------------------
Gary A. Cziko                    Telephone: 217.333.8527
Educational Psychology           FAX: 217.244.7620
University of Illinois           E-mail: g-cziko@uiuc.edu
1310 S. Sixth Street             Radio: N9MJZ
210 Education Building
Champaign, Illinois 61820-6990
USA
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Date:         Sun, 13 Dec 1992 08:52:50 -0700
From:         "William T. Powers" <POWERS_W%FLC@VAXF.COLORADO.EDU>
Subject:      Camma and alpha coactivation

[From Bill Powers (921213.0845)]

Avery Andrews (921213) --

Avery, you also asked for a source on the combining of gamma and
alpha reference signals for the Little Man model.

A reference is McMahon, Thomas A.; _Muscles, Reflexes, and
Locomotion_ (Princeton, NJ; Princeton University Press, 1984).
See Chapter 6, Reflexes and Motor Control, subhead Coactivation
of Alpha and Gamma Motor Neurons (p. 148). " ... so the
experiments are in harmony with the idea that both alpha and
gamma motor neurons are excited by higher motor centers at the
same time."

I think that gamma outputs are also involved in autonomic
reflexes, but don't want to get into that kind of detail.
-------------------------------------------------------------
Best,

Bill P.
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From: bnevin@CCB.BBN.COM (Bruce E. Nevin)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.csg-l
Subject: Melius ex errore
Date: 17 Dec 92 17:15:53 GMT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU

[From: Bruce Nevin (Thu 921217 12:25:14)]

For when PCT becomes part of the academic establishment, here is
a nifty motto, perhaps to be graven over the gothic entrace to PCTU,
lifted (I am told) from the medieval schoolmen:

        Melius invenitur veritas ex errore quam ex ignorantia

"It is easier to arrive at truth from error than from ignorance."

The communication quandary is how to get an audience from the
confort of vested ignorance (ignoring) to the productive
discomfort of error.

        Bruce
        bn@bbn.com
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Date:         Thu, 17 Dec 1992 13:43:10 CST
From:         URROBERT@ECNUXA.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Harnad's reviews
              at

[From Dick Robertson] (9212.17)  A loud Amen to Bill's comment on Harnad's revus
(I hope this gets through, the machine just went around the corner by itself.)
I do think there is something in and of itself that is interesting and worth
study in the way that people with established status fight to keep anything new
from being accepted.  Wouldn't it be fun to have a survey of the system concepts
of those people?
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.csg-l
Date:         Mon, 14 Dec 1992 09:55:26 EST
From:         Avery Andrews <andaling@FAC.ANU.EDU.AU>
Subject:      Re: Neural integrators; protecting muscles

[Avery Andrews 921214.0955]
 (Bill Powers (921213.0730))

>Yes, there are actual neural integrators. Given the sudden
>appearance of an input signal of constant frequency, some neurons
>will produce an output frequency that slowly rises, eventually
>reaching an asymptote (a leaky integrator).

Okay.  But is it actually known that real arm control works this way,
rather than, for example, controlling perceived angular velocities.

Avery.Andrews@anu.edu.au
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.csg-l
Date:         Sun, 13 Dec 1992 17:02:39 EST
From:         Avery Andrews <andaling@FAC.ANU.EDU.AU>
Subject:      arm2 docco remarks II

[Avery Andrews 921213.1700]

On the basis that the arm documentation ought to be reasonably self-contained,
it would be good to add a sentence or two c. pg. 16 explaining what the
integration factors is1,2,3 are doing.  Is there any actual evidence that
there are such integrators in the arm control circuitry?

Avery.Andrews@anu.edu.au
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Date:         Fri, 18 Dec 1992 12:31:43 -0500
From:         psy_delprato@EMUNIX.EMICH.EDU
Subject:      Feedback Is Too Delayed

[FROM: Dennis Delprato (921218)]

Two more impediments to mainstream experimental
psychologists' giving serious consideration to PCT:

1. Widespread thinking of two basic choices: (a) central
control and (b) closed-loop (or input or sensory or peripheral
feedback) control, plus, of course, the eclectic combination
of the two.  According to this thinking, the closed-loop theory
is that sensory "information" from one movement serves to
instigate the next movement.  There may even be a comparator
involved (e.g., Bernstein).  Now, none of this has anything to
do with PCT--the very idea of central vs. peripheral control
is by the boards.  But, I do not believe PCT theorists have
done a good job of addressing how their approach departs from
this sort of  very elementary, widely entrenched thinking.

2. One of the most frequently-heard reasons for ignoring
feedback control (in framework of above) is that feedback is
too slow relative to the speed of movements that can be made.
Can anyone cite me a publication in which this issue is
directly addressed from the standpoint of PCT?  I am
looking for a coherent presentation that is data-based.

Dennis Delprato
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