HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: davidmh@is.su.edu.au (David Martin Hill)
Subject: Re: Transubstantiation and the Real Presence
Followup-To: aus.religion
Organization: University of Sydney
Distribution: aus
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 01:49:23 GMT

In article <ricko.720416400@ee.uts.EDU.AU>, ricko@ee.uts.edu.au (Rick
Jelliffe) writes:
 > At one stage, respect kept many people from having communion 
 > regularly. However the church encourages regular (preferable 
 > weekly, or even daily) communion: this is one reason why Mass
 > is often short (my local one takes 45 minutes on a Sunday, 
 > including 10 minute homily)--too long discourages frequent
 > communion.

Why not just spend time in prayer each day, talking and listening to God
and experience His presence in that way?

David M Hill
University of Sydney
davidmh@is.su.edu.au
From: ripng@halls1.cc.monash.edu.au (PAUL NG)
Newsgroups: aus.religion
Subject: Barcodes - 666
Date: 11 Nov 92 12:03:34 GMT
Organization: Halls of Residence, Monash University

Hi people, I'm back after a LONG absence from this group - about 
two and a half months - Chicken Pox followed quite a bit too 
quickly by the University exams, you see.  	
	The discussion on 666 has been really amusing.  I think Revelations 
may not be a predictive piece of work as much as it is a reference to the 
apostle John's times.  The signs revealed in that book are not predictions 
of things to come as much as they are references to conditions in the early 
church. 
   	At any rate I am not going to second-guess GOD.  If it comes 
it comes.  If it doesn't then until it comes it doesn't matter.
From: ricko@ee.uts.edu.au (Rick Jelliffe)
Newsgroups: aus.religion
Subject: Re: Transubstantiation again
Date: 9 Nov 92 03:32:05 GMT
Organization: University of Technology, Sydney
Distribution: aus
NNTP-Posting-Host: schutz.ee.uts.edu.au

jhb@maths.su.oz.au (John Brownie) writes:

>To state my objection again, I simply find it dubious that we haven't
>understood these terms correctly for such a long time, given that they
>appear to be key terms in theology.  If the correct meaning is as you
>claim, the translations of the Church Fathers should be changed, since
>they are then misleading.

That's what I thought you said. You know that, especially outside of a
tradition, the meanings of words meander over time. Its the job of
scholars to check sources for meanings of words (but not to make them up
by conjecture I'd suppose), and that seems to have happened in this case. 
Yes, I'd think it should be included at least as an explanatory footnote
in any new editions. 

-ricko
Newsgroups: aus.religion
From: chrisa@extro.ucc.su.OZ.AU (C. G. Albone)
Subject: Re: Heroin & Abortion (was Re: Uniting Church)
Organization: /etc/organization
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 11:26:07 GMT

In article <davidmh-061192123836@jenni.ucc.su.oz.au> davidmh@is.su.edu.au (David Martin Hill) writes:
>In article <1992Nov3.163749.1@csc.canterbury.ac.nz>,
>civl097@csc.canterbury.ac.nz wrote:
>> Let people ingest what they choose maintain their minds how they wish.
>
>Here, I disagree. The Bible tells us to have no other gods before the true
>living God. Anything which rules our lives to the point of addiction (eg:
>alcohol, heroin, sex, food(ie: glutony)) becomes a god, and takes first
>place in our lives, where God should be.

I am not sure that it would be the case that having a heroin habit would mean
that heroin would become the first thing in people's lives. Tobbacco smokers
can be christian, and still place God as the most important thing in their 
lives, and remember it is said that heroin is less addictive than tobbacco. I
am also certain that christians, because of their humanity need to eat, but at 
the same time are able to put God first so to speak.
>
>I agree that in a perfect world, God made everything for us to enjoy that
>he created for us on this earth, but once the creation starts to control us
>instead of the creator, we start to lose control. Alcohol is legal, and yet
>we have probably more problems in Australia with alcohol related crimes and
>deaths than we do for heroin. If heroin was to become legal, what is there
>to guarantee that it would be controlled any better than alcohol is at the
>moment. Sure it might be for the first 10, 20 or even 50 years, but how
>long will it take before every single parent working class 12 year old kid
>is using heroin? You could argue (and some have been, and I believe them)
>that if this was pure heroin it would be better than having them using
>alcohol, but do we really want themn using anything??

(1) alcohol has been in western society for a significantly huge amount of time,and even after all of that not everyone drinks, and out of those that do use
alcohol, not everyone is violent. So, I think I am inclined to argue that even
1000 yrs down the track after heroin was legalised we would still find people
that did not use it.

(2) Yes it would be nice if people did not feel the need to use drugs. 
It is most likely the case that people will continue to want to use drugs, for
whatever reason. This is basically just a result of human nature. I would argue
that maybe it is best to yield a little to nature for the sake of those who
find the need or wish to use the drug.
>
>I come back to the fact that this is not a perfect world (far from it) and
>will not be until Jesus returns again to rule (no man knows the day or hour
>Pastor Joe) as he intended from the beginning.

Hmm... I am not sure that this world could ever run particularly different to
now. Not unless the laws of nature change....

Maybe in another world...

___
Chris.

Newsgroups: aus.religion
From: jhb@maths.su.oz.au (John Brownie)
Subject: Re: Transubstantiation again
Organization: School of Mathematics and Statistics, University of Sydney
Distribution: aus
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 04:28:34 GMT

ricko@ee.uts.edu.au (Rick Jelliffe) writes:

>jhb@maths.su.oz.au (John Brownie) writes:

>>If Rick's assertion that "symbol" and "figure" meant something
>>different in the early centuries is correct, then the translators who
>>use them are guilty of inaccurate translation.  That seems to me to be
>>a dubious proposition.

>Surely as a linguist you believe that native use of a word is more
>authoritative than non-native-speakers' approximations? In Wycliff that is
>why all translations are checked with native speakers. Translations are
>always open to improvement as more historical information comes to light:
>if some Protestant scholars interpret a word one way, and Catholic
>scholars ferret around and find further information about how it was used,
>surely one can't just ignore it. What that means is you believe that the
>early Church Fathers spoke a private language different from general use,
>but mysteriously comprensible to the Reformers, in some reverse gift of
>tongues. 

Perhaps I was guilty of being unclear in what I said, but you seem to
have the wrong end of the stick.  In a previous post, you implicitly
claimed that the translations "figure" and "symbol" were incorrect,
since the terms as used by the Church Fathers did not mean what these
terms mean.  My last post was a reaction to this.

To state my objection again, I simply find it dubious that we haven't
understood these terms correctly for such a long time, given that they
appear to be key terms in theology.  If the correct meaning is as you
claim, the translations of the Church Fathers should be changed, since
they are then misleading.

Back to work...
--
John Brownie
School of Mathematics and Statistics   |    Wycliffe Bible Translators
University of Sydney NSW 2006          |    Graham Rd
Internet: jhb@maths.su.oz.au           |    Kangaroo Ground Vic 3097 AUSTRALIA
Newsgroups: aus.religion
From: gotch@titan.trl.OZ.AU (Rob Gotch)
Subject: Re: Barcodes and 666
Organization: Telecom Research Labs, Melbourne, Australia
Distribution: aus
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 00:22:33 GMT

In article <1992Nov7.000915.28094@marlin.jcu.edu.au>, ccla@marlin.jcu.edu.au (Lee Askew) writes:
> The other night I went to a Jeff Beachem(sp?) seminar on end times, and
> very interesting it was, well worth going!!
> 
> But a few things bothered me. He said that barcodes are based on the
> number 666.                                ^^^^^^^^
 
I'll attempt an explanation of this.

Some Christians desiring to translate the apocalyptic liturature concerning
the `mark of the beast' (Rev 13:11-18) believe that this mark is in fact
embedded within the existing international bar code system. If you look at
any bar code you will notice that there are three pairs of bars that stick
out below all of the others. There is one of these longer bars at each end
of the code and another one in the middle of the code. Each of these bars
represents the number 6, hence the three together represent 666. This then
is interpreted as akin to the mark which Rev 13:16 suggests will be placed
on the right hand or forehead, since verse 17 then states that without the
mark one cannot buy or sell.

Those holding to this idea of the mark believe that we are moving steadily 
toward a cashless society, where transactions will ultimately be enacted
by directly debiting accounts with no use of currency of any kind. They also
hold that it is a natural progression of this development that the magnetic
information stored on credit cards will one day be implanted under our skin
(probably on the hand).

This type of teaching tends to come out of Pentecostal traditions like AOG,
which place an emphasis on doctrines of end times matters, eg. tribulation,
second coming, millenium, judgement. It also may have limited support in 
revival groups of mainstream denominations.

Perhaps other netters could provide greater or more accurate detail than my
rather sketchy knowledge allows.

Grace to you,
Rob.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Rob Gotch (r.gotch@trl.oz.au)  | And the son of God died, which is immediately
Financial & Computing Services | credible because it is absurd. And buried, he
Telecom Research Laboratories  | rose again, which is certain because it is
770 Blackburn Rd Clayton Vic   | impossible.         Tertullian 160 AD.
Newsgroups: aus.religion
From: jimu@orthanc.cs.su.oz.au (James Uther)
Subject: Re: Barcodes and 666
Reply-To: jimu@orthanc.cs.su.oz.au (James Uther)
Organization: Basser Dept of Computer Science, University of Sydney, Australia
Distribution: aus
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 05:48:22 GMT

In article <c9037395.721271166@jupiter.newcastle.edu.au>, c9037395@jupiter.newcastle.edu.au (Helen Lee) writes:
|> So, does it matter if 666 is a basis for a barcode? Not really.
|> Would I mind if 666 was on my numberplate? Yes.

Oh, i dunno: A friend of mine (Strong evangelical, wants to go to Bible college)
has a car with numberplate DCLXVI, because the car is a beast :). 

|> Hooroo,
|> Helen.

james
Newsgroups: aus.religion
From: Simon@censis.utas.edu.au (Simon G. Greener)
Subject: Re: Transubstantiation again
Organization: CenSIS, Universiry of Tasmania
Distribution: aus
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 03:56:43 GMT

In article <ricko.720778263@ee.uts.EDU.AU> ricko@ee.uts.edu.au (Rick Jelliffe) writes:

>Surely as a linguist you believe that native use of a word is more
>authoritative than non-native-speakers' approximations? In Wycliff that is
>why all translations are checked with native speakers. Translations are
>always open to improvement as more historical information comes to light:
>if some Protestant scholars interpret a word one way, and Catholic
>scholars ferret around and find further information about how it was used,
>surely one can't just ignore it. What that means is you believe that the
>early Church Fathers spoke a private language different from general use,
>but mysteriously comprensible to the Reformers, in some reverse gift of
>tongues. 

Yeah, but I'll continue to push my barrow too. Interesting that 'chritians'
still think of the Real Presence doctrine as being a ROMAN CATHOLIC
doctrine only. That church whose liturgical language is still testament-
greek and who still speak, write, develop and live that *private*
language ALSO BELIEVE THIS DOCTRINE. Come on folks, cut out the 
WESTERN CHURCH myopia (and be freed of some of the western world's 
angst about nexus between linguistics, written words and truth). 
Rennaissance revival of the classical languages was only a short lived 
phenomena by the time the reformers arrived with their new ideas. They only 
had, at best, a newly acquired and academic understanding of Greek (this is 
not strictly the case with Latin I'll admit) so who do we trust to 
faithfully hand on the mind and desires of Christ? For this is partly, 
perhaps wholly, what the argument is about. 

Remember also that Coptic "Oriental" Christians - who separated from the 
church after Chalcedon in 451, and who have lived happily in Egypt and 
environs ever since with little connection to the Latin Catholic, Western 
Protestant and "Greek" eastern Orthodox churches - they still believe this 
doctrine. That is not a source of problems for their current dialog with the 
Orthodox: pity they will never be able to say this about their separated 
protestant brethren.......

In Christ
Simon Greener
Newsgroups: aus.religion
From: c9037395@jupiter.newcastle.edu.au (Helen Lee)
Subject: Re: Barcodes and 666
Organization: Uni of Newcastle, Australia
Distribution: aus
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 01:06:06 GMT

c8922369@jupiter.newcastle.edu.au (Leon James Garde) writes:

>ccla@marlin.jcu.edu.au (Lee Askew) writes:

[stuff deleted]

>>Could someone explain this?? Any explanation would be greatly
>>appreciated..
>yes, you are falling for a superstition based on the number 666.
>The number 666, is a 'natural' number, one after 665, and one before 667.
>Nothing more nothing less.
>Get that Lee, it is just a number, like 7, 13,  and 474746646453562542
Now here's the nice answer:
We should try not to confuse religion & superstition (altho, granted, some
'religions' are basically superstition). Lee, the number 666 does have
significance, but only in the context of its reference in Revelation. I suggest
that you read this section & differentiate this (single) application of the
number from any/every other application. (ie. Why is it significant? What
is the scope of its significance?)

So, does it matter if 666 is a basis for a barcode? Not really.
Would I mind if 666 was on my numberplate? Yes.
Why? Altho, 666 itself has no evil qualities, & altho the Biblical reference
to it confines its scope to one isolated application, the number *has* been
developed (*by man - by society*) to a common symbol of rebellion, Satan, evil,
etc. The number itself doesn't bother me; the fact that most people would
associate my numberplate with parading a Satanic symbol does.

[stuff deleted]

>Has coke acted to avoid this (pathetic) 666 rumour ?
Let's try to be civil at least, please.


Hooroo,
Helen.
--
My .sig by H. Lee. Brackets Miss, brackets. This .sig goes as follows and
begins now. All VAXes are thin at one end, much much thicker in the middle
and then thin again at the far end. That is my .sig, it is mine, and belongs
to me and I own it, and what it is too.            c9037395@cs.newcastle.edu.au
Newsgroups: aus.religion
From: davidmh@is.su.edu.au (David Martin Hill)
Subject: Re: Heroin & Abortion (was Re: Uniting Church)
Followup-To: aus.religion
Organization: University of Sydney
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 01:45:08 GMT

In article <1992Nov3.163749.1@csc.canterbury.ac.nz>,
civl097@csc.canterbury.ac.nz wrote:
> 
> An addict with an adequate supply of pure heroin and clean works could lead a
> reasonable life.

Agreed.

> A habit would cost about $2 per day if heroin was legal and most of the problems
> popularly associated with the habit would be non-existant.

Agreed.

> Those responsible for persecuting drug users in the hysterical way that is
> popular these days have a lot to answer for.

Agreed.

> Let people ingest what they choose maintain their minds how they wish.

Here, I disagree. The Bible tells us to have no other gods before the true
living God. Anything which rules our lives to the point of addiction (eg:
alcohol, heroin, sex, food(ie: glutony)) becomes a god, and takes first
place in our lives, where God should be.

I agree that in a perfect world, God made everything for us to enjoy that
he created for us on this earth, but once the creation starts to control us
instead of the creator, we start to lose control. Alcohol is legal, and yet
we have probably more problems in Australia with alcohol related crimes and
deaths than we do for heroin. If heroin was to become legal, what is there
to guarantee that it would be controlled any better than alcohol is at the
moment. Sure it might be for the first 10, 20 or even 50 years, but how
long will it take before every single parent working class 12 year old kid
is using heroin? You could argue (and some have been, and I believe them)
that if this was pure heroin it would be better than having them using
alcohol, but do we really want themn using anything??

I come back to the fact that this is not a perfect world (far from it) and
will not be until Jesus returns again to rule (no man knows the day or hour
Pastor Joe) as he intended from the beginning.

> Brandon Hutchison,University of Canterbury,Christchurch
>                   New Zealand

David M Hill
University of Sydney
davidmh@is.su.edu.au
Newsgroups: aus.religion
Subject: Barcodes and 666
From: John.Goldie@cmbbs.gen.nz (John Goldie)
Date: 09 Nov 92  17:09:22 NZD

Hi Lee,
I can explain the REAL reason that Jeff goes on about barcodes, it because he is PARANOID.   There is no link between barcodes and satan, Jeff and his bretheren want us all to stay locked in the past.   On a barcode (at least the bar code I am now looking at) there are 13 numbers, and there is no way you can divide 13 sensibly to get 666.
   
G-d bless,
John Goldie.

 * Origin: Enabling Christian Ministry *Auckland NZ* (3:772/120)
Newsgroups: aus.religion
From: rcribb@alfred.carleton.ca (Robert cribb)
Subject: Mormonism
Keywords: conversion, defection, committement
Organization: Carleton University
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 23:31:11 GMT

Carleton University (Ottawa, Canada) graduate student in journalism
writing a thesis on the basis of acceptance or rejection of the Mormon
message and its impact in modern society.
Anyone willing to speak on-the-record about their joining, leaving,
remaining faithful, or losing faith in the Mormon message and its
impact in your life, please contact me (Robb Cribb) via e-mail.
From: ricko@ee.uts.edu.au (Rick Jelliffe)
Newsgroups: aus.religion
Subject: Re: Barcodes and 666
Date: 9 Nov 92 02:53:48 GMT
Organization: University of Technology, Sydney
Distribution: aus
NNTP-Posting-Host: schutz.ee.uts.edu.au

ccla@marlin.jcu.edu.au (Lee Askew) writes:

>The other night I went to a Jeff Beachem(sp?) seminar on end times, and
>very interesting it was, well worth going!!

I used to know Jeff, and I certainly know the Pentecostal end-time teaching.

>But a few things bothered me. He said that barcodes are based on the
>number 666.

I am sad to say, but IMHO there are evangelists specializing in end-time
messages who deliberately will always try to find the most lurid slant on
everything, in order to bring out the cosmic conspiracy theory. And they
are often laughably wrong in their facts. For instance, Pastor Beachem's
mentor Barry Smith used to claim that the traffic flow cameras could 
look down into cars to see if any one had a bible on their back seat:
infrastructure for the anti-Christ. When a pentecostal flatmate of mine
(now a pastor) who worked as a parking inspector and had seen the control
room pointed out that they were (then) in B&W and low resolution, and in any
case at the wrong angle(!) Smith did not stop making these claims. 

I am NOT saying that anyone is dishonest, but I (an ex-CLC home fellowship
leader in Redfern) ended up deciding that there was an unhealthy turning
of a blind eye: letting the ends (converts) justify the means (crazy
assertionsi and untruth). A week of end-time mesasages in the form of a
crusade used to net over $10 000 in offerings: many Penties believe in a
modified prosperity doctrine where this is evidence that God is blessing
the message. (I take the amount based on another ex-flatmate who stole the
takings of a Barry Smith weekend: CLC and Frank Houston showed exemplorary
charity and forgiveness to him and his accomplices.)

I have heard so much bad logic, false facts, and spurious claims to
authority in various pentecostal end-times crusades that I would be very
wary about accepting much of it: concentrate on Jesus, his death and
resurrection and love. And give your money to charity, the starving and
the sick. 

-ricko
From: ricko@ee.uts.edu.au (Rick Jelliffe)
Newsgroups: aus.religion
Subject: Re: Transubstantiation and the Real Presence
Date: 9 Nov 92 02:51:01 GMT
Organization: University of Technology, Sydney
Distribution: aus
NNTP-Posting-Host: schutz.ee.uts.edu.au

davidmh@is.su.edu.au (David Martin Hill) writes:

>In article <ricko.720416400@ee.uts.EDU.AU>, ricko@ee.uts.edu.au (Rick
>Jelliffe) writes:
> > At one stage, respect kept many people from having communion 
> > regularly. However the church encourages regular (preferable 
> > weekly, or even daily) communion: this is one reason why Mass
> > is often short (my local one takes 45 minutes on a Sunday, 
> > including 10 minute homily)--too long discourages frequent
> > communion.

>Why not just spend time in prayer each day, talking and listening to God
>and experience His presence in that way?

Yes, and the Eucharist is an excellent way to to do this. 

-ricko
Newsgroups: aus.mail
From: rswiftrw@cc.curtin.edu.au (Rod Swift)
Subject: Re: sending mail to fidonet
Organization: -=[ Curtin University of Technology ]=-  Perth  Australia
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 05:57:02 GMT

In article <1992Nov7.220735.3980@ucsvc.ucs.unimelb.edu.au>, u5533129@ucsvc.ucs.unimelb.edu.au writes:
> Can anyone out there tell me how to send mail to a user on fidonet?
> 
> The address on fidonet is 3:632/350.2.  What is the address from the usenet?

FirstName.LastName@p2.f350.n632.z3.fido.zeta.org.au

Rod
-- 
|            . . .   . . . . .          "It leaves us galloping up Diarrhoea|
|        +  +  +     +  +  +  +  +                  Drive without a saddle."|
|    *   *   *       *   *   *   *   *                                      |
|R    o    d         S    w    i    f    t        -- Kryten from "Red Dwarf"|
+-----------------------------------+---------+-----------------------------+
|  Curtin University of Technology  |  Perth  |  RSWIFTRW@cc.Curtin.edu.au  |
From: u5533129@ucsvc.ucs.unimelb.edu.au
Newsgroups: aus.mail
Subject: sending mail to fidonet
Date: 7 Nov 92 22:07:34 +1100
Organization: The University of Melbourne

Can anyone out there tell me how to send mail to a user on fidonet?

The address on fidonet is 3:632/350.2.  What is the address from the usenet?

Thanks,

Peter Summers
Newsgroups: aus.mail
From: bernie@metapro.DIALix.oz.au (Bernd Felsche)
Subject: Re: News/Mail feeds
Organization: MetaPro Systems, Perth, Western Australia
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 92 05:24:21 GMT

In <1992Nov9.221116.5686@cs.su.oz.au>
   matthew@basser.cs.su.oz.au (Matthew Geier) writes:

> Im in the process of collecting information on how to connect my Unix
>machine to the net. 
> Ive got a response from APANA , but my attempts to mail DAILix bounced
>some where along the line..

Funny. You must have a network problem somewhere. Everybody
else seems to be able to get through to DIALix.

> Apart from APANA and DIALix , who else is in the business of supplying
>such feeds ?.

-- 
+-----+ Bernd Felsche                     _--_|\  #include <std/disclaimer.h>
| | | | MetaPro Systems Pty Ltd          /      \ bernie@metapro.DIALix.oz.au
| | | | 328 Albany Highway,              X_.--._/         Fax: +61 9 472 3337
|m|p|s| Victoria Park, Western Australia 6100  v        Phone: +61 9 362 9355
Newsgroups: aus.mail