Date: Tuesday, 7 Apr 1992 18:50:42 CDT
From: Howard Wachtel <U13054@uicvm.uic.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: IQ and religious belief
 <92089.165024U13054@uicvm.uic.edu> <1992Apr2.163656.29639@hobbes.kzoo.edu>

In article <1992Apr2.163656.29639@hobbes.kzoo.edu>, k080093@hobbes.kzoo.edu
(Josh N. Vander Berg) says:
>
>In article <92089.165024U13054@uicvm.uic.edu> Howard Wachtel
><U13054@uicvm.uic.edu> writes:
>>In article <1992Mar26.215349.23769@hobbes.kzoo.edu>, k080093@hobbes.kzoo.edu
>>(Josh N. Vander Berg) says:
>>
>>[lengthy discussion of G-d versus gravity]
>>
>>>Now, as for God, I have no evidence of its existance.
>>
>>   Neither do I or does anyone else, but some of us choose to believe
>>nonetheless.
>
>Well, I choose not to believe in things that I have no evidence for.

   You seem to have a strong belief in atheism, which you have no
evidence for.

>If you
>so like to believe things that you have no evidence for, here's one for you:
>There are invisible pink fairies at this moment excreting intangible urine on
>your forhead.  You asking me to believe in God, is the same as me asking you
>to believe in the fairies.

   You should read my statement more carefully.  First of all, I am not
asking you to believe in G-d.  I couldn't care less whether you believe
in G-d or not.  The religion that I subscribe to does _not_ proselytize
or actively encourage conversion to it.  You and other atheists posting here
actively trying to encourage monotheists to abandon our beliefs in favor
of atheism.  I am reacting in the same way I would react to someone
who comes knocking on my door asking me to join their church--forget
it, you will have no success in converting me.

   Secondly, your "fairies" analogy is childish, and makes a mockery of
organized religion.  Most religious people would not ask you to accept
anything so ridiculous (although there are no doubt some notable
exceptions to this, and it is these exceptions who turn people off
to organized religion).

>
>>>I see people that
>>>believe in all sorts of different gods, each equally plausible in a
>religious
>>>context.  It would take much more faith for me to believe in a god, than it
>>>does for me not to.
>>
>>   Why is that so?  I would think it would take as much faith to believe
>>one way as the other, considering one cannot make this choice based on
>>"evidence" (at least physical evidence).
>>
>No, it takes a lot less faith to not believe in something you have no evidence
>for.

   That would possibly be an argument for agnositicism, but as an atheist
you are believing the denial of existence of a deity, which you also have
no evidence for.
>
>>>Thus, in lieu of any evidence to the contrary, I do not
>>>believe.
>>
>>   This argument is commonly used by atheists to convince non-atheists
>>of their viewpoint, but I find it unaccceptable.  There isn't any more
>>evidence for atheism than for monotheism.  Deciding between the two has
>>to consider factors other than physical evidence, because there cannot
>>be any.  For example, do you think that the disadvantages of believing
>>in G-d outweigh the advantages?
>
>And there is not any more evidence for christianity than there is for
>Buddhism, or native American religion, or Shintoism, etc....

   No, there isn't.

>I merely take
>the position that requires the least amount of faith on my part, that is,
>disbelief in a god, until sufficient evidence to the contrary manifests
>itself.

   Your position requires a hell of a lot of faith.  You want me to accept
that the universe and all that exist came into being purely by accident,
which I find very hard to swallow.
   As I said before, this is not a matter of evidence or lack therefor--
we are not talking about mathematics or science here, but something
less exact and more nebulous.
________________________________________________________________
Howard K. Wachtel              University of Illinois at Chicago
U13054@UICVM.CC.UIC.EDU        Phone (312) 975-7970