HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: shaig@Think.COM (Shai Guday)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: US Teargas firm faces suit for West Bank deaths
Date: 8 Oct 1992 13:00:29 GMT
Organization: Thinking Machines Corporation, Cambridge MA, USA
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: merlin.think.com

In article <22591@venera.isi.edu>, arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens) writes:
|> Forwarded from another mailing list:
|> 
|> in a landmark decision, judge william standish denied the
|> motion of federal laboratories of pennsylvania and its parent
|> company transtechnology of los angeles to dismiss the case on the
|> grounds that it raised a ''political'' question the court is not
|> competent to decide.
|> 
|> it charged that the companies sold cs gas to israel despite
|> their knowledge that israel's use of their product had resulted in
|> several civilian deaths during the palestinian 'intifida' which
|> broke out in dec. 1987.
|> 
|> a number of palestinians reportedly asphyxiated after cs
|> canisters were thrown into their homes. despite this, the
|> companies continued selling the gas to israel, according to the
|> ccr.
|> 
|> ''u.s. companies should be held liable when they knowingly
|> assist in the commission of gross human rights abuses, whether
|> those abuses occur in the u.s. or abroad,'' said ccr attorney and
|> university of pittsburgh law professor, jules lobel.

I don't understand a few points here:

1.  Is the charge that FedLab sold its product after it had known
that it was being used in a manner that had resulted in some deaths
and this continued business resulted in further deaths?  If no
further deaths resulted after the original consignment then I fail
to see what the LEGAL basis for the charge might be.

2.  According to this ruling, would someone injured by a US
made weapon be liable for this if the weapon was sold to the
injuring party by the US company?

3.  On who is the burden of proof in this case? FedLab must prove
they had no prior knowledge that would have prevented the sale,
or the ccr must prove that FedLab knew about misuse and
continued to trade.

Sounds to me like this is going to open up a whole can of
lawyers/worms.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay)
Subject: MEQ #9: Begin on Haifa, 1948.
Organization: Australian National University
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 13:31:26 GMT



      MEQ #9.  Begin gives a rather different Haifa story.

   The legend of Dir Yassin helped us in particular in the saving of
   Tiberias and the conquest of Haifa.  The British commander at Haifa
   announced the evacuation of his forces at the end of April.  The
   Haganah knew the date and mobilized its forces for the decisive clash.
   At the request of the Haganah North Regional Commander Irgun units,
   commanded by Amiel, also went into action, and were ordered to capture
   a fortified enemy building dominating Hehalutz Street, the main artery
   of Hadar Harcarmel.  Our men launched a sudden, surprise attack--and the
   building was captured.  Our men were loudly cheered by the inhabitants
   of Hadar Harcarmel.  They then went on to Wadi Nisnas, captured the
   whole Quarter and continued to advance towards the purely Arab Quarter.
   Meanwhile the Haganah was carrying out successful attacks on other
   fronts in Haifa.  All the Jewish forces proceeded to advance through
   Haifa like a knife through butter.  The Arabs began fleeing in panic,
   shouting: "Dir Yassin!"

   Source: Menachem Begin, The Revolt (W.A. Allen, 1951) page 165.
   Elsewhere (page 337) Begin speaks of Irgun attacks on Haifa as
   early as December 11, 1947--only 12 days after the UN partition vote.
   It is interesting to compare this Irgun version to the "official"
   Israeli version which says the Arabs of Haifa left despite attempts
   to get them to stay.  As usual, both versions contain some truth.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Middle East Quotes is an occasional series of quotations on Middle
East history.  The editor does not necessarily approve of the sentiments
expressed in quotes, nor will he necessarily join in any discussion
they engender.  Contributions are welcome but will not necessarily be
accepted.  Full sources are essential.      Brendan McKay.
From: jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk (JHenderson)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Serbia etc.
Date: 15 Oct 92 09:47:08 GMT
Organization: Edinburgh University

In article <1992Oct14.203600.1@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu> bgdv706@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu (Noam Tractinsky) writes:
~
~	In a previous post, Message-ID: <26595@castle.ed.ac.uk>
~	Date: 6 Oct 92 13:29:11 GMT,  Henderson wrote:
~                                    
~Article in todays "Guardian":
~
~Serbs court Jewish veterrans as 'natural allies'
~
~.
~.
~.
~The Belgrade government has consistently sought the [Jewish Friendship]
~society's support in the Croation conflict. Statements from the organization 
~have lent moral justification to the Serbian cause, while television
~appearances by Mrs. Mandic and composer Enrico Josef - famous for his
~description of Serbs as "celestial people" - have reinforced the belief
~that Jews are Serbs natural allies.
~.

and later...

~> =>#Obviously, to point out that those posting condemnations of the Serbian
~> =>#actions do not speak for the whole Jewish community, and to highlight
~> =>#the natural affinity of the proponents of "ethnic cleansin".
~
~	Danny:
~> =>I see. So now *Jews* (in general) are 'proponents of "ethnic cleansin"'.
~ 
~	Henderson:
~> Only the most tortured mind could deduce that I claimed that Jews in general
~> are proponents of ethnic cleansing.
~
~	Only the most tortured mind could _not_ deduce that you claimed
~	that Jews in General are proponents of ethnic cleansing.

I realise that logic is not your strong suit, Noam, but can you try to point
out which part of my posting makes any reference, explicit or implied, to
my beliefs regarding "Jews in general"?

I think it's fairly clear that *some* Serbs are proponents of ethnic cleansing,
as are(were) *some* Jews. To claim that I said otherwise is simply dishonest.
Perhaps I should have expected that.



-- 
===Jeremy Henderson===jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk=          

"Telling people how to think doesn't work. They always have stupid
 ideas of their own."
From: bx573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alan H. Stein)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: casualties during the Intifadah
Date: 13 Oct 1992 02:05:36 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: bx573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alan H. Stein)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


I wish to correct just a few of Ms. Aldoubosh's errors.

In a previous article, aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Anisa Alnoor
Aldoubosh) says:

>I guess Mr. Stein wouldn't say how many Palestinians have been murdered
>by his fellow Israelis ...

Being an American, I do not have "fellow Israelis."

>either through Undercover Squads or through the
>typical terrorist measures used by the Occupational Forces to squash
>the intefadeh.

The numbers I estimated included those Arabs who died while violently
resisting capture by the undercover squads.  Since there are no "typical
terrorist measures" used by the IDF, the latter figure is obviously 0.

>It wouldn't be to his advantage to uncover these figures.

See above.

>It's always
>better to blame fellow Arabs and to suggest that their deaths were
>caused by rock-throwing children and teenagers, in their resistance to
>the Occupation of their homes.

There's a saying, "people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones."  If one
wishes to fight violently, then one shouldn't complain if those you are
fighting against act to protect themselves.

When children throw rocks, molotov cocktails, etc., it's appropriate to
treat them as violent individuals, not innocent children. 
-- 
bx573@cleveland.freenet.edu----Alan H. Stein----stein@uconnvm.uconn.edu
From: ehrlich@bimacs.BITNET (Gideon Ehrlich)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: EGYPT: LET MY PEOPLE DIE - we hate Jews !
Date: 15 Oct 92 08:25:00 GMT
Organization: Math department, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, ISRAEL


In article <4279@bimacs.BITNET> ehrlich@bimacs.BITNET (Gideon Ehrlich)
the key word reffused was missed, sorry. here is the corrected article:

>About 1000 Egyptians died in the earthquack at Cairo and nearby
>cities, several thouthands are still buried under the ruins many of
>them still alive.
>The Egyptian army has no spectial tools for saving their still alive
>brothers, neither the knoledge who to do it.
>The  tractors and buldozers they are using kill a lot of those still
>alive under the ruined buildings.
>Israel has many well trained and equipped units for such jobs.
>Including units of trained dogs for discovering persons (dead and a
>live within the ruins ) .
>Those units saved many Russians in a similar case 2 years ago.
>
>Israel offer Egypt the help of those units.

>Mubarek the president of Egypt REFUSED allowing those Jewish saving
                                ^^^^^^^
                                ^^^^^^^
> groups stepping on the holly Egyptian soil.
>
>Egyptians continue to die.

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: michaelp@ifi.uio.no (Michael Schalom Preminger)
Subject: Re: EGYPT: LET MY PEOPLE DIE - we hate Jews !
Organization: Dept. of Informatics, University of Oslo, Norway
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 21:36:35 GMT
Originator: michaelp@conway.ifi.uio.no


In article <4279@bimacs.BITNET>, ehrlich@bimacs.BITNET (Gideon Ehrlich) writes:
> About 1000 Egyptians died in the earthquack at Cairo and near by
> cities, several thouthands are still buried under the ruins many of
> them still alive.
> The Egyptian army has no spectial tools for saving their still alive
> brothers, neither the knoledge who to do it.
> The  tractors and buldozers they are using kill a lot of those still alive under the
> ruined buildings.
> Israel has many well trained and equipped units for such jobs.
> Including units of trained dogs for discovering persons (dead and a
> live within the ruins ) .
> Those units saved many Russians in a similar case 2 years ago.
> 
> Israel offer Egypt the help of those units.
> 
> Mubarek the president of Egypt allowing those Jewish saving groups
> stepping on the holly Egyptian soil.
> 

I missed the news today and didn't exactly understand from this article:
Did president Mubarak allow israei troops helping save egyptians, or did he not.



> Egyptians continue to die.
> 
> And I am wondering: suppose the Israeli saving units had arrived,
> and suppose yjey will be about to save some Egyptians will those
> Egyptians agree to be saved by Jews?
> Or are they saying now:
> " Those who are going to die bless you you the  ceasar! "

????????????????????????

> 
>    Shalom       Gideon

Michael

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: kshammou@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Khaled J Shammout)
Subject: Re: casualties during the Intifadah
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 22:12:34 GMT

> (Manu)

     Tsk, Tsk, Tsk, please read the previous articles on the subject of the
Zionist/Israeli expulsion of the Palestinians.

Wa Salam
--------------
Khaled J Shammout
From: davidba@carmel.technion.ac.il (David Ben_Ami)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: MEQ #9: Begin on Haifa, 1948.
Date: 15 Oct 92 10:33:23 GMT
Organization: Technion, Israel Inst. of Technology

>In article <bdm.718637486@cs.anu.edu.au> bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay) writes:
>>
>>
>>      MEQ #9.  Begin gives a rather different Haifa story.
>>
>>   The legend of Dir Yassin helped us in particular in the saving of
>>   Tiberias and the conquest of Haifa.  The British commander at Haifa
>>   announced the evacuation of his forces at the end of April.  The
>>   Haganah knew the date and mobilized its forces for the decisive clash.
>>   At the request of the Haganah North Regional Commander Irgun units,
>>   commanded by Amiel, also went into action, and were ordered to capture
>>   a fortified enemy building dominating Hehalutz Street, the main artery
>>   of Hadar Harcarmel.  Our men launched a sudden, surprise attack--and the
>>   building was captured.  Our men were loudly cheered by the inhabitants
>>   of Hadar Harcarmel.  They then went on to Wadi Nisnas, captured the
>>   whole Quarter and continued to advance towards the purely Arab Quarter.
>>   Meanwhile the Haganah was carrying out successful attacks on other
>>   fronts in Haifa.  All the Jewish forces proceeded to advance through
>>   Haifa like a knife through butter.  The Arabs began fleeing in panic,
>>   shouting: "Dir Yassin!"
>>
>>   Source: Menachem Begin, The Revolt (W.A. Allen, 1951) page 165.
>>   Elsewhere (page 337) Begin speaks of Irgun attacks on Haifa as
>>   early as December 11, 1947--only 12 days after the UN partition vote.
>>   It is interesting to compare this Irgun version to the "official"
>>   Israeli version which says the Arabs of Haifa left despite attempts
>>   to get them to stay.  As usual, both versions contain some truth.

This Quote is irrelevant to the question of Haifa refugees.
Nobody contested the point that the Jews fought to conquer the city.
Nowhere in Begin's account I see intent to expell the Arabs. It indeed
validated the point that the Arabs feared for their skins and ran away.
There is no hint to the desire to repeat Dir Yassin in Haifa from Begin
or the Hagana.

David.
-- 
=============================================================================
  David Ben-Ami (irc: bigdav)      |   "I can resist anything but Temptation"
  s2780369@Techst02.Technion.Ac.Il |       Oscar Wilde
  davidba@Carmel.Technion.Ac.Il  davidba@Moav.Techniona.Ac.Il
From: rdtst+@pitt.edu (Richard D Thorne)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: To Yigal Arens
Date: 16 Oct 92 01:26:39 GMT
Organization: University of Pittsburgh

|     Whom do you think I respect more:
|           A) a person (such as Yigal) who's overcome prejudice and learned
|              to love and repect his enemy (and talk the truth about them);  OR
|           B) a person (such as yourself) who always lies about the truth and
|              is soaked with hatred?????
|
|     Need I provide you with the answer?
|
|Wa Salam
|--------------------
|Khaled J Shammout
|
      If only the Palestinians could exhibit such love for their own
   collaborators.

R. Thorne
From: kshammou@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Khaled J Shammout)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: EGYPT: LET MY PEOPLE DIE - we hate Jews !
Date: 15 Oct 92 22:03:27 GMT
Organization: The Ohio State University
 H. Stein) writes:


     I'm sick and tired of jumping into conclusions based on mere ASSUMPTIONS 
(which were first introduced by Gideon Ehrlich in article 52537 in which he 
assumes that Egyptians would rather die than have Jews rescue them.)
     If one wants to go ahead and assume, he could come up with very 
interesting stories (may be called MYTHS).
     Any way, the point is YOU do not know why Egypt have refused Israel's
assistance (if that is the case).  But one reason would come to mind is that,
from the second day of the quake, it was too late to find any persons alive
(after they had rescued that lucky lady).  So why should they require the
assistance of teams that would have nothing to do but stand by and be a
hurddle. What was left to do was simply clean the rubble and bury the
dead; and Egypt would be able to do that.

Wa Salam
-----------------
Khaled J Shammout
From: peewee@infoserv.com (Philip Stromer)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Violence mounts in southern Lebanon
Keywords: UPI report
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 92 15:29:00 PDT
Distribution: talk.politics.mideast
Organization: Moon Macrosystems

Thanx for the UPI report, Brad.

Kol Yisrael also reported on the event, but they do a much more
objective job of reporting.

I'm particularly interested in following the UPI, now that the Saudis
have bought them.  I wonder if they'll ever publish anything from,
say, Anisa, about Saudi repression of women.  Highly doubtful...

--Philip Stromer--

"If there's one thing worse than a right-wing chauvinist book-burner,
 it's a left-wing feminist one."

"A liberal is someone who wants to legalize sodomy and ban fireworks."
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: naftaly@supergas.dazixco.ingr.com (Naftaly Stramer)
Subject: Re: EGYPT: LET MY PEOPLE DIE - we hate Jews !
Reply-To: naftaly@dazixco.ingr.com
Organization: Dazix
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1992 15:47:28 GMT


In article <1992Oct15.220327.21164@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>, kshammou@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Khaled J Shammout) writes:
>
>     I'm sick and tired of jumping into conclusions based on mere ASSUMPTIONS 
>(which were first introduced by Gideon Ehrlich in article 52537 in which he 
>assumes that Egyptians would rather die than have Jews rescue them.)
>     If one wants to go ahead and assume, he could come up with very 
>interesting stories (may be called MYTHS).
>     Any way, the point is YOU do not know why Egypt have refused Israel's
>assistance (if that is the case).  But one reason would come to mind is that,
>from the second day of the quake, it was too late to find any persons alive
>(after they had rescued that lucky lady).  So why should they require the
>assistance of teams that would have nothing to do but stand by and be a
>hurddle. What was left to do was simply clean the rubble and bury the
>dead; and Egypt would be able to do that.
>
>Wa Salam
>-----------------
>Khaled J Shammout

In the last quack in what was then the Soviet Union Israeli special units were 
invited by the goverment and helped saving lifes even after 2 days after the
quake. 

---
Naftaly Stramer (303)581-2370, FAX (303)581-9972    Intergraph Electronics
Internet: naftaly@dazixco.ingr.com                  6095 Spine Road    
UUCP: ..uunet!ingr!dazixco!naftaly  	            Boulder, CO 80301
Please excuse my English
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Subject: Re: July chronology
Organization: Brown University Department of Computer Science
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1992 18:42:01 GMT

[Anisa's article deleted]

That's funny, I remember some of these incidents involving battle
with armed Palestinians, in which IDF soldiers were also killed
and wounded. Somehow this wasn't mentioned.

-Danny Keren.

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Subject: Re: Alan Dershowitz on Bosnia
Organization: Brown University Department of Computer Science
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 14:46:23 GMT

arf@ddsw1.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling) writes:

It would be a great help if you put the ">" sign before *every*
line of the original posters. What's the problem?

# Article 48984 (47 more) in talk.politics.mideast:
# From: aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Anisa Alnoor Aldoubosh)
# 
##I came across an interesting newspaper article recently on the conflict in 
##Bosnia, from the most esteemed writer, Alan Dershowitz:
# 
#         "What's happening in Bosnia is horrible, but it's no Holocaust"
# 
# It did't take him long to get to exhonerating Israel of its barbarous 
# treatement of Palestinians, did it?   I suspect he would have a hard time 
# convincing the Palestinians in the Israeli torture camps that things are any 
# better that at Auschwitz.

You just keep making these absurd and insulting remarks, and then
you whine when people respond in anger. In Auschwitz, more than a 
million people died in the course of 3 years or so, and for no
reason at all but their race. In the Intifada, less than a thousand
people died, during violent riots which also cost the lives of about
a hundred Israelis. There is no comparison.

##We shouldn't compare on the same level, but we should not reduce
##the severity of it either because it is not at the same level.
# 
# Let's keep in mind the fact that people who question the absolute number of 
# Jews murdered by Hitler, after being smeared and slandered, are reminded that 
# the number really is not the issue.  It is never the issue until some other
# group wants a little pitty... then they are subjected to Dershawitz's 
# pathetic whining.

It is not that they "question the absolute number of Jews murdered by
Hitler", it is that they deny there was a Holocaust, deny that there
was a plan to exterminate the Jews, and give a number which is about
10-15 percent of the real number of victims. According to them, the
real villains of the war were the US and Britain, and the Nazis were
a bunch of great guys who had the war "forced on them" and would
probably win it if they didn't spend so much time and money in building
hospitals for elderly Jews and children. According to them Hitler
was "the greatest leader of the century, greater than Churchill and
FDR combined, the best thing that could have happened to Germany". I
am not dostorting anything by the way, these are direct quotes from their
writings.

# Remember, he is also the guy who claims that Jonathan Pollard is just a poor 
# misunderstood Jewish boy.

I don't think he said that. I think he said that Pollard was punsihed
more harshly than people who committed similar, or even worse, acts.

-Danny Keren.
From: ehrlich@bimacs.BITNET (Gideon Ehrlich)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: casualties during the Intifadah
Date: 15 Oct 92 08:42:29 GMT
Organization: Math department, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, ISRAEL

In article <4072@copper.Denver.Colorado.EDU>
aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Anisa Alnoor Aldoubosh) writes:

>Gideon, we are sorry to hear about the deaths of Amazya ben-hayim and
>Rachel Weiss.

Murdering Amazya ben Hayim and burning a live Rachel Weiss and her 3
kids is the very aim of organizasions like the Plo , Throwing the
weel-chairof Klighoffer off the Akila Laura, without taking him off
that chair before is just a nother action of that same line.
When you Anisa constantly support those murdering organisations I
have a problem:
 Should I consider your suport to the PLO as a fake action in order to
be accepted by your Arabiam friends, Or should I consider youre sorrow
about Amazya, Rachel, her kids, Klinghoffer, .....   as a fake.
Please help me to come to a solution to the problem.

>I don't want to continue counterposting from these tragedies on the
>painful and humiliating deaths of other people, both Arab and Israeli

Please don't mix a death of a victim with the failoure of the criminal
to murder even more.

>because it only brings further bitterness and bad feelings between
>the posters.

How sweety it sound!

>The point of my questioning Alan Stein's sensitivity is because he
>denies any link to Palestinian murders by undercover Israeli units

Those units do not murder, they prevents murders from murdering by
aresting them, sometimes the murderers try murder the soldier and
in that case the murderers are nutrelised for ever.

>At least I acknowledge and respect the deaths of innocent people

So support any activity to stop such murders - stop the Arabian death
groups.

gideon


Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast