HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ez027993@dale.ucdavis.edu (Gary Prisoner Huckabay)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Morgan vs. Sandberg
Date: 25 Jan 93 20:01:53 GMT
Organization: Mr. Brazil, Ltd. (Home of the Mr. Peanut Impersonator.)

Deb T. writes:

>Why not let's try your comment this way: It is safe to say that Morgan is  
>the better offensive player, but that doesn't begin to make up the  
>defensive ground between them.

Well, how about because it's foolish, obtuse, and just generally counter-
productive?  First off, unless it's Dwayne Murphy vs. William Conrad
in center field does any position have such a huge defenisve disparity.

Second of all, what makes you think that Sandberg's defense is any better than
Morgan's?  Morgan could play D, folks.  Sandberg can, too, but I'm not
convinced he's even Morgan's equal, much less his superior.

I'll grant you this - Sandberg is white, he plays for the lovable Cubs,
and people have short memories.  But WHY does anyone think Sandberg is
CLOSE to Morgan?  Sandberg's decline has yet to occur, and he's still not
close to Morgan's career totals.

I'm not even sure Sandberg's superior to Lou Whitaker.

He's whiter, of course, and has those 'dreamy' looks.

>
>The discussion is about "premier second basemen" in sum and total, not  
>about "premier second basemen offensively." So why are so many posts  
>putting so much emphasis on the offensive comparison?

Because A) it's more tangible, and b) the difference is gigantic.

> It seems that the  
>position played is an important factor in the topic--after all, it's not  
>about "premier hitters" or "premier players no matter what position they  
>play." [Is DH a "positon"? ;-)]. So is the discussion downplaying (if not  
>outright ignoring or dismissing) Sandberg's position play?

Not at all.  In fact, I personally believe Morgan was a better defender than
Sandberg ever was or will be.  I'm not convinced Sandberg has ever been a 
dominant 2B in MLB.  There's always someone pretty comparable to him every
year - a Lou Whitaker, a Carlos Baerga, a Bill Doran (maybe stretching it
with him), a Julio Franco.

Sandberg is a great player.  Joe Morgan is one of the best 25 players of all
time.  The difference isn't small.



-- 
*    Gary Huckabay    * "If money....if love was in...your life....it's run    *
* "Where the HELL is  *  out...got to realize it's time...Confusion...delusion *
*   the new Living    *  alive in destitution...if it could only be different..**   Colour album?!?"  *  if only you could run away from it." - J. Gaskill.    *
From: nissim@mary.fordham.edu (Leonard J. Nissim)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: How long is thee season
Date: 26 Jan 93 13:57:00 GMT
Article-I.D.: mary.26JAN199309570939
Distribution: usa
Organization: Fordham University
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41
X-Posted-From: mary.fordham.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In article <93025.14081234EX5PH@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU>, 
Michael S. Matusiewicz <34EX5PH@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU> writes...
>Could anyone please answer me this question for the up and coming season.
>What day is it offically open and last day of the season.
> 
>thanks michael

Opening Day is scheduled for Monday, April 5.
The All-Star break is scheduled for Monday, July 12 to Wednesday, July 14.
The season is scheduled to end on Sunday, October 3.  
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Leonard Nissim, notorious Dodger fanatic     (nissim@mary.fordham.edu)  
Disclaimer:  "I speak only for myself."   
World Championships:  Brooklyn-----1955   
                      Los Angeles--1959  1963  1965  1981  1988
Trying not to remember 1992
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: wynblatt@sbgrad5.cs.sunysb.edu (Michael Wynblatt)
Subject: Re: All-time TIgers spring training report (ATAS)
Organization: State University of New York at Stony Brook
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 20:38:20 GMT

In article <1jjq8kINN3g1@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> dxf12@po.CWRU.Edu (Douglas Fowler) writes:
>                                    Detroit Tigers
>
>Starting Lineup                          Starting pitcher
>CF  Ty Cobb                                      Mickey Lolich
>2B  Charlie Gehringer                               Paul Splitorff

...lineup deleted

>Bench                                            John Hiller
>C Bill Freehan;                                 Schoolboy Rowe
>2B Damaso Garcia; LF/3B/1B Darrell Evans;
>RF/LF Kirk Gibson; SS/3B Rance Mulliniks; OF Harry Heilemann;
>OF Sam Crawford

I missed something.  When did Damaso Garcia play for Detroit?
And what about Sweet Lou?  Surley his numbers are better than Garcia's.

Michael


Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: wynblatt@sbgrad5.cs.sunysb.edu (Michael Wynblatt)
Subject: Re: Whitaker
Organization: State University of New York at Stony Brook
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 18:23:32 GMT

In article <1k4b0dINNt89@stimpy.css.itd.umich.edu> sweda@css.itd.umich.edu (Sean Sweda) writes:
>Ted Frank (thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu) wrote:
  stuff deleted
>>As for durability, he only played 153 games or more once in his
>>career.  We can probably also give him the 1981 strike year when he
>>played 109 games.  Sandberg has played less than 153 games only once,
>>1987, when he played 132.  I don't know how long Sparky has been sitting
>>Whitaker against LHP, but I'd still give Sandberg the durability nod.
>
>Point taken,  although I'm still inclined to view Whitaker's PA's as
>more a function of Sparky's managing style.  It started out with Sparky
>benching Lou against "tough" lefties, but as soon as the Tigers signed
>Tony Phillips, I think Lou has started only 1 or 2 games a year against
>lefties.  In fact, except for Fielder, I think Sparky tries to get
>everyone on the team about 7-10 games off a year.
>
>Unfortunately, there really isn't much data I can find on this.
>Most Tigers' regulars over the years I can check are either injury prone
>(Trammell, Gibson), or retired (Herndon, Lemon, Evans).  Here goes anyway --

stats for Fielder, Phillips, Fryman deleted

>Cuyler
>1991 154 G
>1992  89 G (benched)

I'm pretty sure that Cuyler missed most of those games because he was on
the DL. Remember that the Tigers got Pettis when Cuyler was hurt, and he
managed to get around 100 AB before missing most of September himself with
injuries (Pettis wasn't put on the DL because he was hurt after Sept 1 roster
expansion).  And Cuyler never came off the DL all that time.  It was pretty
scary watching Dan Gladden play that huge CF in Tiger Staduim, though Phillips
handled himself ok out there.

>Sean
>

Michael


Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: dkeisen@leland.Stanford.EDU (Dave Eisen)
Subject: Re: Lee Stevens to the Expos
Organization: Sequoia Peripherals, Inc.
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 93 00:06:27 GMT

In article <wall-210193160323@elvis.swarthmore.edu> wall@cc.swarthmore.edu (Matthew Wall) writes:
>My guess about the reason players might have no-trade clauses to Montreal
>are
>

My understanding is that the reason is: 

(5) Something about the tax laws works against playing for
the Expos. I don't know if the player's income is then
subject to bot US and Canadian taxes, or what the story
is exactly. I've just heard this given as a reason why
American ballplayers try to avoid playing for Canadian
teams.

Maybe somebody else can give a definitive answer on how the
tax situation differs when a player plays on a Canadian
team.


-- 
Dave Eisen                               Sequoia Peripherals: (415) 967-5644
dkeisen@leland.Stanford.EDU              Home:                (415) 321-5154
       There's something in my library to offend everybody. 
          --- Washington Coalition Against Censorship
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu (Ted Frank)
Subject: Can a Below Average Player Help a Team?
Reply-To: thf2@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 20:06:15 GMT

In article <2547@blue.cis.pitt.edu> genetic+@pitt.edu (David M. Tate) writes:
>On the other hand, Bichette will certainly not make the difference between
>contending and not contending, nor will he be a major box-office draw.  So,
>either they'll compete without him, or they'll not compete.  Either way, it
>makes no sense to sign an aging mediocrity.

This same kind of reasoning kept the Montreal Expos from winning anything
in the early 80's.  I don't think there's been a team since the big Red
Machine that had a starting lineup so substantital that they could survive
without any quality bench players, and the Reds actually did have quality
bench players, even if they didn't get any playing time.  So did the 
1961 Yankees.  The 1927 Yankees had some not-so-
great players, and no bench, but there's no one in the majors who is as
dominant as Ruth and Gehrig, so you can't build a team like that either.

Bichette might not make the difference between contending and not contending.
But a team wants to do more than contend -- they want to win.  And Bichette,
in some states of the world, might make that difference.  An aging
mediocrity?  Yes.  But certainly better than who would be getting those
200 at-bats if he weren't on the team.

Of course, you can't build your team around a Dante Bichette.  You build
your team around Bonds, Bonilla, Van Slyke, and Smiley, and then get a
Bichette to be the spit and glue when you can't sign 25 All-Stars to your
roster.
-- 
ted frank                     | thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu 
standard disclaimers          | void where prohibited
the university of chicago law school, chicago, illinois 60637
From: luigi@sgi.com (Randy Palermo)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Those Silly Jints
Date: 28 Jan 93 21:38:55 GMT
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc., Mountain View, CA

In article <2717@blue.cis.pitt.edu> genetic+@pitt.edu (David M. Tate) writes:
>
>Well, the San Fransisco Giants have just announced that Willie McGee will
>bat leadoff, and Barry Bonds will bat fifth.
>
I haven't agreed with this since the very moment I heard it. I was very
much hoping the McGee for LaValliere trade would go through. McGee hits
an incredibly soft .300 and walks about twice a month. 

The reasoning for hitting Bonds 5th had to do with a left, right, left, 
right situation. Dave Martinez with play center and hit 2nd. Yes, it blows
me away too. I would much rather have Bonds hitting behind Clark and in
frot of Williams. I hope this gets ironed out in spring training. I heard
part of an interview last night with Dusty Baker and his main goal is to
have a set lineup, unlike Roger Craig who used, I think, 136 different
lineups last season.

><insert derisive yet rude noise here>
>
Inserting noise NOW.

>Clearly, SF felt that it was important to make sure that McGee not only got
>more PAs than Bonds, but that Bonds didn't take PAs away from Matt Williams
>or Will Clark.
>
:^)

>Any guesses about who'll bat second?  Royce Clayton?  Robbie Thompson?  Kirt
>Manwaring?
>
Dave Martinez, however, I got a kick out of the Kirt Manwaring suggestion. 
It would be most excellent if Royce Clayton came on and pushed McGee down
to 6th or 7th where his .300 and low OBP wouldn't be so damaging.

luigi
--
Randy Palermo   luigi@csd.sgi.com    Fax: (415)961-6502
Silicon Graphics Computer Systems, 2011 N. Shoreline Blvd Mt. View, CA 94039
"Play an accordion, go to jail. That's the LAW"
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball,rec.sport.baseball.fantasy
From: wall@cc.swarthmore.edu (Matthew Wall)
Subject: Off season transactions update on ftp site
Followup-To: rec.sport.baseball
Organization: Hi, I'm Matt, and I'm...a Boston Red Sox fan
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 22:49:35 GMT

Thanks to Matt Nelson again for providing the updated list of off-season
transactions.

Complete transactions through 1/19/93 are now posted on the "little league"
ftp site

anonymous ftp to eucalyptus.cc.swarthmore.edu
cd /baseball/misc
get off-season-transactions.txt

- Matt

PS submissions always welcome to the ftp site...


---------------------------------------------------------
This space left intentionally blank until spring training.
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu (Ted Frank)
Subject: Misc. GABSB Observations
Reply-To: thf2@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 07:15:19 GMT

Andre Dawson, road stats, 1992:
73 for 290, 11 2B, 9 HR, 10 BB, 252/279/383.
He's going to miss Wrigley.  A lot.

I see that Jack Clark still has a potential useful (even in the 
Dave Tate sense) role on the Red Sox.  He hit a solid 295/460/421 
against LHP.  

Red Sox leadoff hitters hit 216/282/291.  
LA Dodgers #9 hitters hit 203/252/273.
The only AL lineup spot that did worse than Boston leadoff hitters were
Kansas City #9 hitters.

Every single spot in the Orioles lineup hit at least 11 HR.  None hit
more than 22.

The only team in the major leagues where runs scored was perfectly
correlated with how high one hit in the lineup was Houston.  Baltimore,
by comparison, went #1, #6, #5, #3, #8, #4, #2, #7/#9.

Pitchers hit 137/166/170.  Montreal had the best-hitting pitchers at
161/191/202.

Eight AL teams had better production from their first-basemen than
the New York Yankees.

GABSB inexplicably left Mulholland out of their stolen base reports.
I find that inexcusable.

Runners were 12/23 stealing second off of Tanana, but 9/9 stealing third.

The success rates for stealing third are remarkably successful.  Biggio
was 26/40 stealing second, just below break-even, but 12/13 stealing third.

The fielding stats are unreadable.

A lot was said how Boggs's stats had declined only because he wasn't
hitting at home, and true, his batting average was 30 points lower at
home, but he hit for more power and walked more often, so he had 44
more OPS points at home.  As per usual he hit more doubles at home than
on the road.

Prediction: Jody Reed won't manage a 600 OPS in his move to LA.

Has any MVP ever declined as precipitously as Kirk Gibson?


-- 
ted frank                     | thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu 
standard disclaimers          | void where prohibited
the university of chicago law school, chicago, illinois 60637
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: trn@warper.jhuapl.edu (Tony Nardo)
Subject: Re: GM Nicknames (was Re: Baines to Baltimore?)
Organization: Johns Hopkins University
Date: 21 Jan 93 14:10:14 GMT

> In article <AfLLb6z0BwxI4YejMY@transarc.com>, David_Stephenson@transarc.com
 writes:
> 
> genetic+@pitt.edu (Dr. Dave) writes:
> > Thus spake hbrooks@uiatma.atmos.uiuc.edu (Harold_Brooks):
> > >
> > >Gormanocy!?!?!?  What a wonderful word.  And I was worried that our
 language
> > >might be going stale.  For those netters in need of an adjective to
 describe
> > >their favorite (?) GM's performance, I respectfully submit Maxvillian.
> > 
> > Don't you mean "Maxvillainous"?  Or perhaps just "Maxvile"?
> > 
> 
> Ooooo, I like this!  We in Pittsburgh can attest to being Simonized by
> the latest Bucco signings!
> 

Here in Baltimore, we can listen to Eli Jacobs tell us how he wants to build
a winning team -- but after most winters, when we read over the transaction
list, we just shake our heads and say, "Elied.  Elied again."
--
Tony Nardo,		   INET: trn@warper.jhuapl.edu, trn@aplcomm.jhuapl.edu
 Johns Hopkins Univ./APL   UUCP: {backbone!}mimsy!aplcomm!trn
			    Any noun can be verbed.
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu (Ted Frank)
Subject: Re: 1993 MLB WS odds
Reply-To: thf2@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago
Distribution: na
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 23:42:42 GMT

In article <1993Jan22.152627.1@ualr.edu> ajsmith@ualr.edu writes:
>In article <1993Jan21.132431.24404@jarvis.csri.toronto.edu>, marwood@csri.toronto.edu (Simon J. Marwood) writes:
>> 
>> The following odds chart appeared today in the Toronto Star, and represents
>> the odds listed by the Flamingo Hotel sports book in Laughlin, Nev. The
>> odds represent the odds to win the 1993 WS:
>
>Scalpel! Scalpel.
>
>> 
>> Team		Odds
>> ----		----
>> 
>> Atlanta		3:1
>Rightly so the opening's odds on favorite to take it all.

Boy is that statement chock-full of errors.

First, "odds-on" means "better than even odds."  3:1 ain't odds-on.

Second, these are the odds to win the World Series.  Once you win
the division, you have a 50-50 shot of winning the playoffs, and
a 50-50 shot of winning the World Series.  That's 3:1 right there.
Are you really so sure of the Braves' chances that they're a 100%
shoo-in to win the division?  You're getting taken at 3:1 odds.

>> Toronto		4:1
>They were hurt by some dealings in the off season i wouldn't have put them so 
>high. maybe down in the 10:1

You're catching on.  None of these odds should be as high as they are.

>> Los Angeles	15:1
>15:1???? what did they do get rid of lasorda? :) (ouch)

Remember that LA is next door to Las Vegas.

>> NY Yankees	18:1
>With the additions of Boggs, Owen, Abbot, Howe (cringe the damn drugie) I'd 
>place the Yankees a little higher

I wouldn't.  This is the only reasonable odds on the whole chart.  Just
because everyone else is overvalued doesn't mean that you should overvalue
the Yankees.

>> Pittsburgh	25:1

>whatcha doing all the way down here?

Actually, this is another one that is just about right.  Maybe a little
overvalued, but not much.
-- 
ted frank                     | thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu 
standard disclaimers          | void where prohibited
the university of chicago law school, chicago, illinois 60637
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: gspira@nyx.cs.du.edu (Greg Spira)
Subject: Re: AVERAGE/GOOD values...
Organization: University of Denver, Dept. of Math & Comp. Sci.
Distribution: na
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 93 18:59:38 GMT

snichols@adobe.com (Sherri Nichols) writes:

>In article <1993Jan21.115544.1@stsci.edu> sandoval@stsci.edu writes:
>>   What are the AVERAGE avg/obp/slg values for each position?
>>That is, what are the values that are adequate?  And, as a
>>followup, what are the values that are GOOD, or well above
>>average?  

>My reference which has this is at home right now, but as a start, I can
>tell you that league averages for OBA and SLG are usually around .320/.380
>in the NL and .330/.400 in the AL.  But I really posted to tell you a
>reference which has this sort of thing: _The Great American Baseball Stat
>Book_, by Gary Gillette.  He published one last year, and I believe he'll
>be publishing one this year, too.  It's paperback, and under $20, I
>believe.  

As I mentioned yesterday, it's out, and $15 again.  I pushed this book last
year here, and I guess I'll do it again, though if you have the 3 STATS
books it really doesn't add all that much.  But its certainly the best single
book of data out there.

>(I make no money off this book, but I do have an interest in seeing it
>continue: I get my raw play-by-play data from Gillette, and as long as the
>book sells, he'll have enough money to keep collecting it, which means I'll
>be able to continue doing DA stuff).  

Yes, but one question: Why doesn't Gillette use DA in the book?

Greg 



Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: ekaas@cs.sfu.ca (Erik Kaas)
Subject: Braves in California in May?
Organization: CSS, Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Distribution: na
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 23:39:13 GMT


A friend and I will be visiting California in May. We'd really
like to see a MLB game, preferably a game involving the
Atlanata Braves (the best team in the world, I'm not Canadian :).

Does anybody have the schedule of the Braves in May, OR
a schedule of games played in May??? I'm looking for games played
in or around L.A. or San Fransisco.

Any info is welcome!

Erik KK
--
From: rsmith@strobe.ATC.Olivetti.Com (Russ Smith)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Phillies/Cards Trade Rumor
Date: 21 Jan 93 23:34:03 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Olivetti ATC; Cupertino CA, USA

In article <2296@blue.cis.pitt.edu> genetic+@pitt.edu (Dr. Dave) writes:
>The Zeile situation has been confusing me no end ever since the kid came up.
>I mean, here's a player with outstanding offense for a catcher, OK offense
>for a third baseman, and rotten offense for a first baseman.  So, by all means,
>let's never ever let him catch, but instead put him at third with an eye on
>maybe first eventually.

And now the always difficult task of admitting I was wrong. Those on the net
back then will possibly recall that I was all for moving Zeile to 3rd and
had a lengthy debate with Sherri who pointed out he was only a good hitter
for a catcher and would be below average. Well 2 years later its fairly
obvious that she was right and I was wrong. I still think he was not a good
catcher, but he is not a good 3B either, and likely will be not much better
if he does end up at 1b. In either case, his bat is only above average if
he is catching. Playing him at 3b does get him more games and more at bats
(which was a big part of why I supported it) but it has not really obviously
made him a better player(which I thought it would).

>What good is extending the gentleman's career if he's going to be below average
>*during* that career?  Let him catch, or trade him.

Of course Pagnozzi is a very good defensive catcher and the Cards would no
doubt cite that as a reason to keep him there and Zeile at 3rd or 1st. At
this point, the Cards problem figures to be scoring runs, so if they did 
move Zeile back to catcher, and could trade Pagnozzi(in a package most
likely) for a better 3B, I would support it. I like both players, but
the club needs better offense.

>>Their best 3B prospect is 19 year old Dmitri Young but he is likely to
>>start the year in AA, and the Cards doubt he is really a 3B. He is prone
>>to being a bit heavy, and 1B figures to be his future position.
>
>Pendleton's a bit o' chunk, too, but it doesn't seem to hamper him much...

I have not seen Young play, but I understand he is pushing 225 to 230 lbs
at just a shade over 6 foot tall. Scouts likened him to Kevin Mitchell
prior to the draft, great bat but a "big body" who would be likely to lose
his speed early in his career and be prone to weight problems. He played
shortstop in highschool but they had initially figured him for the outfield.
Apparently they think he will be too slow and 1B seems to be the most likely
spot for him(and probably the easiest to reach the majors if his bat is for
real).




Russ Smith
*******************************************************************************
"History proves again and again how nature exposes the folly of man"

                    "Godzilla"- Blue Oyster Cult
********************************************************************************




Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: rja@mahogany126.cray.com (Russ Anderson)
Subject: Twins minor league prospects (corrected)
Originator: rja@mahogany126
Organization: The 1991 World Champion Minnesota Twins!
Date: 26 Jan 93 09:56:45 CST


Baseball America's list of top Twins prospects (via Sid
Hartman's gossip column, with my added comments):

1) David McCarty: 1B-OF hit .271 for AA Orlando & .500 for AAA
	Portland. (#1 pick, June 1991)

2) Mike Trombley: RHP 3-2 3.30 ERA for the Twins.  A very good 
	curveball.  Struck out 5 in the first 2 innings vs Detroit.

3) Marty Cordova: OF hit .341 for Class A Visalia.

4) Scott Stahoviak, 3B hit .308. (#1 pick (1991?))

5) Rich Becker: OF hit .316.

6) Denny Hocking: SS hit .331.

7) Edgar Herrera: OF .347 for Elizabethton (Rookie League).

8) Todd Richie: (RHP?) 11-9 5.06 ERA for Visalia (#1 pick).

9) Alan Newman: (LHP?) 4-8 4.15 ERA for Class AA Orlando.  Nearly made
	the Twins lat year after an impressive spring training.

10) Dan Serifini: LHP #1 pick 1992, 1-0 (30 innings)in rookie league.

Some names not on the list: Pat Mears SS, Paul Russo 3B.

Mears was one of the 15 Twins protected from the expansion draft.
Andy McPhail says Mears or Hocking are the Twins SS of the future.

-- 
Russ Anderson    |  Disclaimer: Any statements are my own and do not reflect
------------------              upon my employer or anyone else.  (c) 1992
EX-Twins' Jack Morris, 10 innings pitched, 0 runs (World Series MVP!)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball