From: arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee)
Subject: Re: The Marching Morons
Organization: Johns Hopkins University CS Dept.
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1993 02:08:30 GMT

In article <pete.726020217@extro.ucc.su.OZ.AU> pete@extro.ucc.su.OZ.AU (Peter Alexander Merel) writes:
>>If foreign countries with debts to the US would use weapons to try to negate
>>their debt, there would be a lot of disadvantages to them.  These disadvantages
>>would outweigh the advantages of not having a debt.  But they would not
>>outweigh the disadvantages of complete eradication of the country in a few
>>generations, 
>We're not talking about "complete eradication of the country". We're talking
>about permanently reducing population pressures within the country so as to
>benefit its inhabitants.

I rather doubt the foreign country would see it that way--and of course if they
_see_ it as a threat, they'll _act_ as though it's a threat.

>>I'm suggesting that in a world where secret groups freely spread sterility
>>viruses to foreign countries, dictatorship suddenly becomes a lot more
>>advantageous.  
>You're suggesting that demagogues will use such a "threat" to seize power? 
>Again, if that were true, wouldn't it apply to HIV?

In some ways, it does.  There's lots of political propaganda about HIV, all
the way from KGB allegations, not so long ago, of secret Western labs down to
accusations by American minorities that Jewish doctors spread it.

>>Since such groups can act only without a world dictatorship,
>>the effect of such groups is to increase the stability of a dictatorship,
>>relative to democracy.
>I don't see why clandestine sterillizors couldn't operate within 'a world
>dictatorship'. A dictator might see such things as tools with which to preserve
>order - dictators seem to be much fonder of eugenics and such than democracies
>are.

Approved sterilization programs would of course flourish in dictatorships,
but it's rather unclear that those would be programs even you would support --
it's not hard to imagine a dictator completely eradicating an ethnic group by
forcibly keeping the cure from them.  This problem isn't even limited to _big_
dictatorships; if Turkey, for instance, could only afford to keep 10% of its
population fertile, do you really think the Kurds will get any fraction of
that 10%?

>>Even if the dictatorship does not take over the whole world, it still benefits
>>if it can take over enough of the world to 1) have enough captive scientists
>>to force to provide a cure, or 2) have enough captive scientists to force to
>>provide another sterility virus to use against the dictatorship's enemies.
>If a dictatorship wanted to outbreed its "enemies" it could simply pump up
>the pro-large-family dogma; but in an age of mass weaponry, outbreeding your
>'enemies' is not an effective military strategy.

It is harder to get scientists, as opposed to soldiers, by outbreeding your
enemies, but you can use the soldiers to take over places that _do_ have the
scientists you need.

>>The sterility virus has essentially the same effect, with respect to politics,
>>as a weapon which directly kills the victims instead.
>I'm afraid I don't see that. A weapon which strengthens your enemy and leaves
>him fully capable of retaliation is not a very effective weapon, imho.

What's the difference, then, between releasing a sterility virus that your
enemy can only afford to cure 10% of its people of, and dropping bombs that
kill 90% of your enemy's population, in the long term?  One would expect the
enemy to react similarly either way.

The weapon also weakens the enemy in a fundamental sense: "we won't sell you
enough cures to cure even the 10% you can afford, since we don't like your
government's policies on this other issue that has nothing to do with
population.  But we'll sell you at a loss, to cover 20%, if you decide to do
_just_ as we say...."
--
"On the first day after Christmas my truelove served to me...  Leftover Turkey!
On the second day after Christmas my truelove served to me...  Turkey Casserole
    that she made from Leftover Turkey.
[days 3-4 deleted] ...  Flaming Turkey Wings! ...
   -- Pizza Hut commercial (and M*tlu/A*gic bait)

Ken Arromdee (arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu, arromdee@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.science