HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: archer@utkux1.utk.edu (T. Archer)
Subject: Rights
Organization: University of Tennessee Division of Continuing Education
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 13:51:57 GMT

In article <1992Jul22.225739.22409@leland.Stanford.EDU> farthing@leland.Stanford.EDU (ljf) writes:

>Could it be, no, no way!  Your homophobia or society's?  If it's the
>former, that's your problem.  If it's the latter, maybe you should be
>concerned about lesbigay rights.

Nope.  Individual rights, not lesbigay right.  Groups do not have rights, 
only individuals.

-=-=-
T. Archer  PA142548@utkvm1.utk.edu
University of Tennessee
"Vote Dempublican, it's easier than thinking." -- Unknown
-=-=-
Newsgroups: talk.rape
From: lazlo@triton.unm.edu (Lazlo Nibble)
Subject: Re: To Synth: Sexism not intended ...
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 92 07:19:59 GMT
Organization: Sporadic and incomplete

kimmyd@bnr.ca (Kimmy Posey P920) writes:

> . . . You see a man assaulting a women.  Kill him.  DO NOT PASS GO, DO
> NOT COLLECT $200.  Foreign aggressor threatens The State (including
> home, hearth, wife, children) destroy aggressor in-situ. . . . 

Yes, yes, we're all very impressed with the size of your penis.

Now put it away, Conan.

--
Lazlo (lazlo@triton.unm.edu)
From: kji+@SPEECH1.CS.CMU.EDU (Kathi Iannamico)
Newsgroups: talk.rape
Subject: old post/DC
Date: 23 Jul 92 15:47:25 GMT
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon
Originator: kji@SPEECH1.CS.CMU.EDU

Well, try as I might, I could not get my hands on the post which spoke
of "violating" bodies.  It makes no difference to me and to the others
who have written to me saying they remembered it.  It was there.  Denying
it was there does not change the reality of its being there.

So before you plan the parade route, note that I remember, a few other
people remember, and we all know you remember, regardless of much you
protest.
Newsgroups: talk.rape
From: farthing@leland.Stanford.EDU (ljf)
Subject: Re: Rape (what else?)
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 92 04:26:49 GMT

In article <1992Jul21.141426.8814@uoft02.utoledo.edu> dcrosgr@uoft02.utoledo.edu writes:
>In article <1992Jul21.153235.8496@leland.Stanford.EDU>, farthing@leland.Stanford.EDU (ljf) writes:
>> 
>> A person should not be forced to resort to physical repulsion in order
>> to convince someone that s/he does not want sex.
>> 
>> What I find interesting about this whole discussion (not just what
>> you've written, DC) is that we seem to be saying there are special
>> rules for sex, where some people believe that no means anything but.

>Yes, but your significant other has not handcuffed you and dragged you into the
>diner. Nor have they forced you to see Hudson Hawk. You consented by going in
>with them.

My point in those scenes was to say that if some hetero men are really
confused about date rape, they can behave sexually with the same
concern with which they behave in nonsexual situations.  I can't
imagine any man that concerned with date rape dating a woman and
ignoring her when she says no to Chinese food or a Bruce Willis movie.
Why ignore her wishes when she says no to sex?

>> Date rape is more often not "Well, I said no, but he insisted and I
>> felt helpless."  The date rapes I've heard and read of involved
>> victims being pinned down or beaten and raped.
>
>Insisting (if like pleading/begging) is not rape. Insisting with physical
>threats is. In my opinion.

Unfortunately, my wording of that first sentence says just the
opposite of what I meant.  I intended it to read that date rape is
more often not "Well, I said no, but he insisted and I felt helpless,"
but a pinning down or beating of the victim.

Newsgroups: talk.rape
From: boggs@a.cs.okstate.edu (BOGGS RICHARD GRAN)
Subject: Re: The reason for Rage
Organization: Oklahoma State University, Computer Science, Stillwater
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 92 17:49:36 GMT

scg@mentor.cc.purdue.edu writes to DC (I just felt a need to comment):

>Actually, I implied that you seem to have some problem with being
>potentially viewed, even if incorrectly, as homosexual.  Why?

I despise homosexuality in all its forms.  I'd never want to be viewed by others
as something that makes my own stomach churn.  [The cats out of the bag now.
This is really the _wrong_ forum for this discussion.  I will try my best not
to bore you with personal views on homosexuality after this post.]

>Why should I care if people suspect I'm gay?  The simple fact is, I'm

>In other words, you're afraid of being thought of as gay by idiots.
>Why do you place so much stock in the opinions of idiots?

The world is full of idiots.  More often than not, you end up working for
idiots.  What people think makes a big difference in how they treat you (man,
I can feel the flames coming from this one already!).

Again, not the forum for talk.homosexuality.  Remember, this is talk.rape or
supposed to be.  I quit on this subject.


-- 
Grant Boggs
boggs@a.cs.okstate.edu
Oklahoma State University
Stillwater, Oklahoma
From: scg@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Scott Goehring)
Newsgroups: talk.rape
Subject: Re: The reason for Rage
Date: 21 Jul 92 13:58:28 GMT
	<1992Jul20.000845.15481@leland.Stanford.EDU>
	<1992Jul19.213644.8762@uoft02.utoledo.edu>
Reply-To: scg@mentor.cc.purdue.edu
Organization: Society for the Prevention of National Mudding Associations

dcrosgr@uoft02.utoledo.edu writes:

>If it were a female who had raped me, I would consider going to the
>police.  If it were a male, DUE THE ADDED STIGMA OF HOMOSEXUAL
>OVERTONES, I would either move on with my life, or might decide to
>settle the matter myself.

I was raped by a man.  I didn't consider the 'added stigma of
homosexual overtones'.  I reported it to the police, who promptly did
nothing (besides keep me up until 4am that night with questioning and
such not).  Once they figured out I wasn't a girl (I was somewhat
androgynous in appearance at the time), they got this sorta 'ew, ick'
attitude and I suspect decided they didn't want anything to do with
the case.  Really stupid, considering that I didn't ask this guy to
try to fuck me.

Of course, this was in Texas.

So, you're right.  Homophobic cops make it unwise to report same-sex
rape.  It's a fucking shame our police aren't interested in protecting
the rights of all our citizens; only the ones they find morally
upstanding.

Or were you talking about your own inability to deal with
homosexuality?
--
"No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should
they be considered patriots.  This is one nation under God."
	-- President George Bush, Chicago, August 27, 1988
Newsgroups: talk.rape
From: holzman@fnalo.fnal.gov (Daniel B. Holzman)
Subject: <None>
Organization: FERMILAB
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 22:15:43 GMT
X-Posted-From: fnalo.fnal.gov
X-Posted-Through: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In article <SYNTH.92Jul27130810@deepthought.unm.edu>, 
synth@deepthought.unm.edu (Synth F. Oberheim) writes:
> Based on personal experience and observation -- namely, growing up
> around and being socialized with other males -- I've seen that most
> men visualize a scenario of simply "getting sex" at the expense of
> whoever is on the receiving end -- a purely selfish goal.  (And doesn't
> this also describe the "date rape" scenario as well?)  The image of

Well... no.  The usual reasoning I have heard from date-rapists and their
apologists have been along the lines of "he spent all that money, he had the
sex coming to him."
-- 
Daniel B. Holzman                    | Eight Words the Witch's Rede Fufill:
HOLZMAN@FNAL.BITNET                  | An It Harm None, Do What You Will
HOLZMAN@FNALC.FNAL.GOV.INTERNET      |
                                     | All Acts of Love and Pleasure are
Love doesn't subtract,               | Her Rituals
   it multiplies    - Heinlein       |
TEAM STAR Charter Member             | Speak the Word.
Disclaimer:  Fermilab's far too large to have an opinion, let alone mine.
From: dcrosgr@uoft02.utoledo.edu
Newsgroups: talk.rape
Subject: Re: The reason for Rage
Date: 23 Jul 92 12:22:41 EST
Organization: University of Toledo, Computer Services

In article <1992Jul23.062617.351@leland.Stanford.EDU>, farthing@leland.Stanford.EDU (ljf) writes:
> In article <1992Jul23.001744.8868@uoft02.utoledo.edu> dcrosgr@uoft02.utoledo.edu writes:
>>Somebody email him the name of the gay forum. Please. I am tired of explaining
>>to people the same thing over and over again. 
> 
> Look, DC, I fight anti-queer bullshit like yours where I see it.  If
> you came on here making racist comments about African Americans, I'd
> bitch at you about that.  And I won't let you weasel out of it by
> claiming this isn't the place for it.
> 

Look Farthing, I fight stupidity like your wherever I see it. If you had
read my post with any kind of intellegence, you would have seen I did not say
one thing that was anti-homosexual. DO whatever you like. I merely stated
their plight is not my plight as I have enogh in my life to worry about
without getting wrapped up in causes that simply do not concern me.

That is not anti-homosexual. That is selecting which battles you wish to
fight, and which battles you'll let other people fight. You want to fight
for gay rights, go for it. You will not see me stand in your way. You want
me to fight for gay rights? Yeah, right after you come over and wash my dishes.

DC



Newsgroups: talk.rape
From: dcrosgr@uoft02.utoledo.edu
Newsgroups: talk.rape
Subject: Re: Daniel: Spelling, targets, etc.
Date: 31 Jul 92 18:24:01 GMT
Organization: University of Toledo, Computer Services

In article <1992Jul31.145827.29320@brtph560.bnr.ca>, kimmyd@bnr.ca (Kimmy Posey P920) writes:

> 
> Yes blindly attacking a problem sometimes results in hitting the wrong target.
> In the case of rape however, the target which I am attacking blindly or other-
> wise is the rapist.  IMO this is the correct target.

Yes, but to date your only suggestion is public execution, even if innocent
people die.

That is a bit like firing a mchine gun at a man holding a hostage tightly.

What other suggestions do you have?


DC
Newsgroups: talk.rape
From: synth@deepthought.unm.edu (Synth F. Oberheim)
Subject: Re: rape - lust apology
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 92 02:58:37 GMT
Organization: SynthMedia Productions Ltd.: The Danes Call It Quality
	<1992Jul28.101457.202126@uctvax.uct.ac.za>
	<1992Jul28.101745.202127@uctvax.uct.ac.za>


>snyeva01@uctvax.uct.ac.za writes:
>>snyeva01@uctvax.uct.ac.za writes:
>> I am very sorry, but it seems as if someone got hold of my password and had
>> some fun. The posting labelled "rape - lust" was not written by me
>> Evan Snyman and I totally dissociate myself from any such sentiment.
>> I hope this will never happen again.
> 
> UNLUCKY Evan! ...

Evan> Sorry but I think I've got a bug here and will just have to kill
Evan> it...

I suggest you *change your password*.


===============================================================================
    :: :: :: :: ::     Synth F.    synth@deepthought.unm.edu    U S E N E T   
 :: :: :: :: :: :: ::  Oberheim    synth@yenta.alb.nm.us             in color!
===============================================================================
"Bula vinaka, beachside!"
From: dcrosgr@uoft02.utoledo.edu
Newsgroups: talk.rape
Subject: Re: The reason for Rage
Date: 22 Jul 92 11:45:55 EST
Organization: University of Toledo, Computer Services

In article <SCG.92Jul22091927@mentor.cc.purdue.edu>, scg@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Scott Goehring) writes:
> 
>>It is an easy way for them to dismiss what you are saying without
>>dealing with the issues you raise.
> 
> Just as it is an easy way for you to dismiss what I am saying without
> dealing with the issues *I* raise.

What issues do you want dealt with?

DC
From: kimmyd@bnr.ca (Kimmy Posey P920)
Newsgroups: talk.rape
Subject: DC: Stick to law, sap ...!
Date: 26 Jul 92 18:05:09 GMT
Organization: Bell-Northern Research, BNR-RTP

... and leave the psychoanalysis to the professionals.  I have a whole team of
folks with more degrees than a thermometer lookin' after my mental health and
they don't seem to think I'm beyond help thank you!  And furthermore I don't
threaten bub.  I don't need to.  Nor do I cry for help.  If I need help I just
pull out my wallet & buy some.  Sitting here I have an incredible urge to say
a ton of really nasty things about you.  However I realize from some of the
posts that I have read, man you already got plenty of people here that don't
care for you.  You sure don't need an enemy as bad as me.  Therefore I think
I'll just let you slide.  It's not worth workin' up a sweat over.

KimmyD
Newsgroups: talk.rape
From: sheehan@pagosa.scd.ucar.edu (Tim Sheehan)
Subject: Re: Rape experiences
Organization: NCAR/UCAR
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 18:48:20 GMT

In article <1992Jul26.213318.1@engr>, s_mesbah@engr writes:
 > In article <1992Jul26.201904.9599@midway.uchicago.edu>, tb13@ellis.uchicago.edu (leon joel gross) writes:
 > > In article <1992Jul26.144038.1@engr> s_mesbah@engr writes:
 > >>Looking for someone to share rape experiences with.  
 > >>
 > >>regards,
 > >>Sam
 > > 
 > > [leon's warning deleted]
 > >
 > > [Sam's post in soc.women deleted]
 > 
 > 
 > And another thing Leon!  What gives you the right to copy my notes from
 > soc.women over to talk.rape?  If I wanted my views on women expressed here I
 > would do it myself.  
 > 
 > regards,
 > Sam
 > 

One should not state publicly what one does not want to be public knowledge.

-- 
-Tim-

sheehan@ncar.ucar.edu

Xref: sparky talk.rape:1640 alt.sexual.abuse.recovery:5211
From: scg@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Scott Goehring)
Newsgroups: talk.rape,alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
Subject: Re: Info/resources on Ritual Abuse needed
Date: 21 Jul 92 13:47:39 GMT
	<1992Jul20.174152.8784@uoft02.utoledo.edu>
Reply-To: scg@mentor.cc.purdue.edu
Followup-To: talk.rape
Organization: Society for the Prevention of National Mudding Associations

dcrosgr@uoft02.utoledo.edu writes:

>What is 'ritual abuse'? Re-occurring, or done in rituals?

Abuse, frequently sexual, couched within the context of religious or
quasi-religious ritual.  Some cults have been known to practice the
sexual violation of children as part of their rituals.
--
"No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should
they be considered patriots.  This is one nation under God."
	-- President George Bush, Chicago, August 27, 1988
Newsgroups: talk.rape
From: silber@m.cs.uiuc.edu (Ami A. Silberman)
Subject: Re: <None>
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept. of Comp. Sci., Urbana, IL
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 21:50:11 GMT

>>> If it's a visualization of sex either with protest from the woman or with
>>> the woman being oblivious to any act taking place, it's a rape fantasy.

>dc> Olivious is not rape.

>Having sex with someone who is drugged up, unconscious or incapacitated
>is not rape ?

Not if they gave prior consent. Secondly, in the context of fantasy, consent
or lack thereof may be a non-issue. If in real life, I do not obtain someone's
prior consent, having sex with them while they are unconscious is possibly
rape. (It may not be in the case of existing couples where no indication was
given beforehand that such an experience would be non-welcome, but anyway...)
In a fantasy, I may short-circuit the whole question of consent or not.
My fantasy starts with me undressing this unconsious person and proceeding to...
Nothing in the fantasy about consent or non-consent, prior or not.
-- 
ami silberman - janitor of lunacy
	silber@cs.uiuc.edu
Newsgroups: talk.rape
From: kimmyd@bnr.ca (Kimmy Posey P920)
Subject: To Prof. Petschek on fantasization ...
Organization: Bell-Northern Research, BNR-RTP 
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 21:15:48 GMT

Thanx for the advice professor.  I will certainly consider it.  That close
friend is my wife of 11 years BTW.  However I believe you have mis-inter-
preted some of my statements to indicate that I don't respect psychiatrists
and/or psychologists / psychotherapists.  Nothing could be further from the
truth.  In fact if not for a whole team of such persons I would have taken
my own life after discovering the pain I had inadvertently caused my spouse.
Such persons are the tools through which the Creator will ultimately heal the
terrible wrongs done to her.  I applaud them and revere thier talents.  I also
realize that they are human beings attempting to understand a Super Human
creation.  The mind is not some tangible thing that can be quantified,
studied and reduced to a set of simple (or complex for that matter) rules.
Therefore the humans who treat it cannot say "in my expert medical opinion
rape fantasies are healthy and good".  They could however say something like:
"in my flawed, human, personally biased, best-guess opinion" etc.

In my own flawed, human, extreme personally biaed, never-having-been-raped,
totally unprofessional opinion, rape victims who enjoy fantasies about rape
in the aftermath, are still suffering from the original trauma.  I feel certain
that my wife *NEVER* has such fantasies.  I could be as wrong as wrong can
be but it seems intuitive to me somehow.  I mean rape is a violation of one's
very soul.  By definition it is an uninvited, unwanted, violent act forced on
a one person by another person(s).  When such a thing is enjoyed it ceases to
be rape at least in my opinion.  Therefore if a victim truly fantasizes about
being raped then she (he) is fantasizing about something that hurts them.
This type of self-destructive behavior is certainly not healthy.  At least I
would think so.

As far as people dreaming about raping and being raped and then being appalled
at engaging in such activities I totally reject the idea for the former and
whole-heartedly agree with the latter.  How could anyone who dreams about rape
be horrified by the idea?  Doesn't compute.  And *ANYONE* who is raped is
horrified whether they fantasized about it before hand or not. 

Hey if I've offended anyone with this tirade, especially a victim, then I am
deeply sorry.  Please forgive my ignorance and understand that I feel *VERY*
passionate about this subject.  I have known too many women who I cared for
deeply that have suffered this hideous atrocity and I believe that the stats
show us an enormous problem in our society.  As long as we continue to look
on the types of behavior that IMO promote or at least enhance the possibility
of rape / molestation those stats will keep on rising.  And along with it the
number of broken families and devastated lives.

Sincerely,

KimmyD
From: dcrosgr@uoft02.utoledo.edu
Newsgroups: talk.rape
Subject: Re: Rape in any form ...
Date: 30 Jul 92 08:04:40 EST
Organization: University of Toledo, Computer Services

In article <SYNTH.92Jul29120119@deepthought.unm.edu>, synth@deepthought.unm.edu (Synth F. Oberheim) writes:
> 	<SYNTH.92Jul28193941@deepthought.unm.edu>
> 	<1992Jul29.085038.9026@uoft02.utoledo.edu>
> Lines: 19
> 
> 
> dcrosgr@uoft02.utoledo.edu writes:
> 
> dc> Maybe after you explain, in scientific reasons, why you like or
> dc> dislike liver, in such a way that a person without any sense of
> dc> taste can understand it, you will have invented language that I
> dc> can then use to make you understand my preferences.
> 
> dc> Although, without telepathy, I don't think it can be done.
> 
> When you acquire the power of telepathy, be sure and get back to me,
> because speech and dialogue have become quite hopeless.

No, they were hopeless from the start, as one of us can not understand how to
relate his own emotions and tastes to those of others. My fantasies, and what I
get out of them, are no different than what you get out of yours.

It would appear that you will not be happy until I can quantify what you get
out of yours.

DC
From: hacksaw@cellar.org (Hacksaw)
Newsgroups: talk.rape
Subject: Critisizing the victim?
Date: 28 Jul 92 04:42:06 GMT
Organization: The Cellar BBS and public access system


 
  I agree that one never asks to be raped, and that it is never the victim's
fault. But, in some cases, I believe too much sympathy is given to the
victim; she comes out looking like a saint. Is it wrong to critisize her
too?
 
  I'll make this analogy. A guy owns and expensive car and is naive enough
to bring it into a the city. He locks the car, and goes off to do his 
business. Ten seconds later the car is gone. No doubt there was a crime 
committed here, and he didn't ask for it to be committed. We look at this 
guy as an idiot for bringing such a nice car into a high-crime area.
 
  I tend to look at some rape victims as "idiots" for putting themselves
into a situation. The girl, half-drunk, going into a guys apartment late
at night. The girl walking down a dark street wearing clothes that leave
nothing to the imagination. These are some instances that come to mind.
 
Any comments?


------
hacksaw@cellar.org (Hacksaw)
The Cellar BBS - (215) 654-9184
From: gseven@leo.unm.edu (Roy "Gary Seven" Corey)
Newsgroups: talk.rape
Subject: talk.rape?
Keywords: none
Date: 30 Jul 92 00:55:27 GMT
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque


  Well, I stopped reading this newsgroup for a week and had quite a bit
of catching up to do.  Midway through all those articles I had several 
posts welling up inside.  Now having finished reading the recent articles
I can't seem to remember what this all has to do with talk.rape.  Has
the .flame addendum failed to make it to our server?  The only thing I
can think to do now is flame DC (except that I usually agree with him, he
could use a challenge though, having read a variety of inept flames 
against him I might do it just to keep him in shape).

-- 
			   Live from Carina (@unm.edu)
			   Roy "gseven" Corey

	"Communication is the staple of an advanced society"
Newsgroups: talk.rape
From: holzman@fnalo.fnal.gov (Daniel B. Holzman)
Subject: Re: DC: Lay off buddy ...
Organization: FERMILAB
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 22:37:54 GMT
X-Posted-From: fnalo.fnal.gov
X-Posted-Through: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In article <1992Jul28.151227.13042@brtph560.bnr.ca>, kimmyd@bnr.ca (Kimmy 
Posey P920) writes:
> ... you're gettin' off the subject and on my nerves.  

Awww...


> I didn't come here to
> debate the morality of war with you.  

Then you go on to do exactly that.

> foreign invaders, I said foreign aggressor.  Bad Ol' Saddam Insane was
> certainly (and still is) just such an aggressor.  By threatening the security
> of not only our nation but the rest of the western world by seizing the
> richest oil deposits on earth , he brought on his own destruction.  Rightly
> deserved IMO.  You sighted many other cases but like I said none of that is
> relevant to this subject area.

What destruction?  Hussein (learn to spell, will ya?) still reigns in Iraq.
-- 
Daniel B. Holzman                    | Eight Words the Witch's Rede Fufill:
HOLZMAN@FNAL.BITNET                  | An It Harm None, Do What You Will
HOLZMAN@FNALC.FNAL.GOV.INTERNET      |
                                     | All Acts of Love and Pleasure are
Love doesn't subtract,               | Her Rituals
   it multiplies    - Heinlein       |
TEAM STAR Charter Member             | Speak the Word.
Disclaimer:  Fermilab's far too large to have an opinion, let alone mine.
Newsgroups: talk.rape
From: lazlo@triton.unm.edu (Lazlo Nibble)
Subject: Re: More on fantasies and discussing one or two (was) Re: Rape in any form ...
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 92 05:04:00 GMT
Organization: Sporadic and incomplete

synth@deepthought.unm.edu (Synth F. Oberheim) writes:

>> And just how many of these males you were socialized with have gone
>> into detail with you about their rape fantasies, Synth? 
>
> Uh, all of them.  They offered the details; I didn't have to ask.  It
> was mostly gleaned in casual male-bonding-type situations. 

As in, what?  Did they just "casually" mention in your presence that
they'd like to rape someone, or did they just say things that you chose
to *interpret* as rape fantasies?

> An "example or two"?  You must be joking. 

I must be -- you certainly haven't seen fit to provide any.

> And please note the disclaimer:  personal experience and observation.

Well either sidle up to the bar and share or keep your opinions to
yourself, son.  If you want to make generalizations you ought to be
be prepared to back them up with reasons why you think they're valid. 

--
Lazlo (lazlo@triton.unm.edu)
Newsgroups: talk.rape