HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: cbbrowne@csi.uottawa.ca (Christopher Browne)
Subject: Re: PQ SEPARATION
Organization: Dept. of Computer Science, University of Ottawa
Distribution: can
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 92 02:50:09 GMT

In article <charles.712350789@menaik> charles@cs.UAlberta.CA (Charles Jobagy) writes:
>golchowy@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca (Gerald Olchowy) writes:
>
>>Quebec has to write Canada a cheque for around $100 billion dollars
>>(plus or minus a few billion depending on the formula) before it can
>>separate...it will have to raise this money internationally in a
>>new Quebec currency...this should be a sufficient deterent to
>>separation.  Canada's (and Quebec's) huge debt basically make
>>separation a fiscally dubious proposition...
>
>Why would Quebec want the Anglophone debt?

Well, then, I guess that if they don't want any Anglo debts, then they
can't demand any of the Anglo assets...  Part of Montreal wouldn't be
in the new Quebec...  And it would be interesting to see the reaction
of Quebecois to the presence of foreign military bases within
Quebec...

Seriously, there has been a LOT of Federal monies sent into Quebec
over the years, whether through transfer payments, or to provide
Federal services to the people of Quebec.

If the Quebecois want to have those Crown assets, they're going to
have to take FULL responsibility for them.  Which would involve taking
responsibility for the debt used to finance things like the building
of buildings, bridges, and other things that were done by the Federal
government.

And there is NOT the choice of simply refusing the debt.
-- 
Christopher Browne
cbbrowne@csi.uottawa.ca
University of Ottawa
Master of System Science Program
From: audetf@Software.Mitel.COM (Francois Audet)
Newsgroups: can.politics
Subject: Re: Richard Holden & compulsory bi-elections
Date: 30 Jul 92 13:58:14 GMT
Distribution: can
Organization: Mitel. Kanata (Ontario). Canada.

In article clamen+@CS.CMU.EDU writes:
>Perhaps you don't read the right papers.  It got a lot of press in the
>Gazette.

I don't think the "Gazette" qualifies as a "right paper."   :-)

Furthermore, I don't live and Montreal, so I wouldn't read it anyways.

-- 
                                                       Francois Audet
                                                           '
                                      Telephone: (613) 592-2121 x1754
                          Internet: Francois.Audet@software.Mitel.COM
From: audetf@Software.Mitel.COM (Francois Audet)
Newsgroups: can.politics
Subject: Re: "F/E" versus "Bienvenue/Welcome"
Date: 23 Jul 92 12:40:47 GMT
Organization: Mitel. Kanata (Ontario). Canada.

In article thood@corvus.matrox.com (Thomas Hood) writes:
-Re-Action Quebec, in the Eastern Townships,
-has printed signs reading "Bienvenue/Welcome"
-that have been posted by many shopkeepers
-outside Montreal.  These signs are illegal.

Is this true? A sign saying Bienvenue/Welcome is illegal? If it is, it
is ridiculous (et honteux). Furhtermore, it is also stupid since it
makes the language laws look bad (even the good parts of the law).
-- 
                                                       Francois Audet
                                                           '
                                      Telephone: (613) 592-2121 x1754
                          Internet: Francois.Audet@software.Mitel.COM
Newsgroups: can.politics
From: stevew@teleride.on.ca (Stephen M. Webb)
Subject: Re: God Save your Queen
Organization: Teleride Sage Ltd.
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 14:44:02 GMT

>
>>>From article <Bs2uL0.AsI@ireq.hydro.qc.ca>, by beaurega@ireq.hydro.qc.ca
>>> Denis Beauregard writes:-
>>>>
>>>> [...the British performed "ethnic cleansing" in acadia in 1763...]
>>>

>>In article <1992Jul28.090039.21380@spxtech.qc.ca> steven@spxtech.qc.ca (Steven C. Potter) writes:
>>>
>>> [...the Normans invaded England in 1066...]
>>>

>beaurega@ireq.hydro.qc.ca (Denis Beauregard) writes:
>>
>> [...but the British invaded Scotland and Ireland and didn't impose
>>  any cultural restrictions or engage in deportation.  The Scots and Irish
>>  assimilated British culture.  We French North Americans need not
>>  feel grateful that the British allowed us to retain our heritage...]

In article <skenny.712363366@femto.engr.mun.ca> skenny@pico.engr.mun.ca (Shawn Kenny) writes:
>
> [...the British banned and persecuted Irish language and culture in 
>  Ireland...]

Okay let's summarize.

(1) The Normans invaded England in 1066.  They imposed the Norman language and
    culture on the Angles and Saxons (who had imposed their culture on the
    locals, who were descended from various other tribes, like the Picts,
    who had also ben invaded and enculturated by the Romans).  The Gaels of
    Cornwall and Bretagne were assimilated.

(2) The British invaded Scotland and Ireland, imposing their language and
    culture and engaging in mass deportations and persecutions of the
    indigenous population. Assimilation of the Gaels of Wales and Scotland
    was begun.

(3) The French invaded Normandy and Bretagne (Brittany), imposing their
    culture and language (there are still laws on the books outlawing
    native speakers in Bretagne).

(4) The French invaded northeastern North America, imposing cultural and
    linguistic hegemony.

(5) The British fought the French in Europe (and a few piddling battles
    in their North American colonies) and the French ceded their North
    American colonies to England.

(6) The British once again imposed their language and culture on the
    people living in Acadia and engaged in mass deportations, but allowed
    the people in Quebec to retain their language and culture.

(7) The French sold their remaining North American colonies to the United
    States for quick cash to continue fighting the British.  Many deported
    Acadians returned to Acadia.

(8) Independance movements have arisen in Scotland, Wales, and Quebec.
    Ireland gained it's independance in the 1930's.  The United States is
    gradually buying out the rest of North America.


The moral of this story:

- don't try and make people what they are not.


-- 
------- Stephen M. Webb -------

Ack!  I've accidentally broken my leg!  -- Ed the Happy Clown
From: steven@spxtech.qc.ca (Steven C. Potter)
Newsgroups: can.politics
Subject: Re: Bla, bla
Date: 21 Jul 92 17:59:58 GMT
Organization: Securiplex Technologies Inc., Montreal, Canada
X-Bytes: 1819

From article <CLAMEN.92Jul20233913@BYRON.SP.CS.CMU.EDU>, by clamen@CS.CMU.EDU
 Stewart Clamen writes:-

> In article <12329@audetf> audetf@Software.Mitel.COM (Francois Audet) writes:
> 
>    Well, in this case it is not perfectly OK to FORCE people to use one
>    particular language - by NOT PROVIDING generalized educational
>    opportunities to the francophone minorities of Canada (even when they
>    are not new to a province).
> 
>    I'm I not saying that it is perfectly OK. What I don't understand is
>    that vision of things were having a law forcing NEW arrivants to
>    Quebec to educate their kids in french is the worst crime in the
>    world, while just failing to generally provide facilities for
>    francophones outside Quebec is perfectly normal. Especially since
>    these people (in the west for example) have been living there for
>    ages.
> 
> I agree with you completely here.  Ontario, New Brunswick, and
> Manitoba have been working to improve the problem of first-language
> French education.  Pierre Rouleau keeps us up-to-date on the
> happenings in Alberta, where the system is in flux.
> 
> Every time I read a post on the language-thread, I am reminded of the
> Ontario laws that forbade French-language education, and the various
> laws (since ruled invalid) that made Manitoba, Saskatchewan, and
> Alberta unilingual (all three were previously bilingual).


   Why doesn't Quebec set a good example to the rest of 'em?

   It might be taken as an olive branch to some.

-- 
  ///==================================================================\\\
  ||| Steve Potter:         steven%spxtech@CAM.ORG                     |||
  ||| Expertise/Experience: Computer Systems Engineering / Real Ale /  |||
  |||                       Politics in Education in Quebec            |||
Newsgroups: can.politics,can.general
From: jdnicoll@watyew.uwaterloo.ca (James Davis Nicoll)
Subject: Re: Olympic Musing
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 15:13:26 GMT

In article <Bs2M4J.9I6@ireq.hydro.qc.ca> beaurega@ireq.hydro.qc.ca (Denis Beauregard) writes:
>>
>The point here is that the Federal government is constantly trying to
>use _propaganda_ in favor of Canada.  This is politics and there is
>no relation with the Olympic spirit.  What point, main of my posting,
>you just forget.

	In view of the events at the 1972, 1976, 1980, and 1984  Olympics,
it could be argued that politics is the main event at the Olympics.

	International sports are very political, although I personally
fail to see the linkage between the benefits of the various political-
economic systems and how well various sports figures perform. Orwell
had a nice essay on this, whose name entirely escapes me...

							James Nicoll
From: steven@spxtech.qc.ca (Steven C. Potter)
Newsgroups: can.politics
Subject: Re: Bilingualism at universities (was Re: Bla, bla)
Date: 29 Jul 92 13:11:23 GMT
Organization: Securiplex Technologies Inc., Montreal, Canada
X-Bytes: 609

From article <12416@audetf>, by audetf@Software.Mitel.COM (Francois Audet):

> [Stuff about U. of Ottawa and language of courses etc. deleted]
> 
> C'est bien beau se proclammer bilingue, encore faut-il l'etre
> rhealistement :-)
> 

  Could you provide your definition of 'bilingual', please, Francois.

-- 
  ///==================================================================\\\
  ||| Steve Potter:         steven%spxtech@CAM.ORG                     |||
  ||| Expertise/Experience: Computer Systems Engineering / Real Ale /  |||
  |||                       Politics in Education in Quebec            |||
From: beaurega@ireq.hydro.qc.ca (Denis Beauregard)
Newsgroups: can.politics
Subject: Re: "F/E" versus "Bienvenue/Welcome"
Date: 31 Jul 92 13:14:10 GMT
Organization: Institut de recherche d'Hydro-Quebec, Varennes, Canada

In article <30JUL92.12899420.0087@VM1.MCGILL.CA> CZ94@MUSICA.MCGILL.CA (CZ94) writes:
>A previous version of this posting got truncated somehow, so I'm
>reposting it.
>
>Article 63:  Les raisons sociales doivent etre en langue francaise.
                  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>Article 69:  Sous reserve de l'article 68, seule la raison sociale
>en langue francaise peut etre utilisee au Quebec.
>
>(Article 68 essentially says that both the French name and a translation
>can be used on labels of products sold both inside and outside Quebec.)
>
>Francois, you were surprised to learn that "Bienvenue/Welcome" signs
                                             ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>are illegal.  You don't know the law on corporate names.  You've
>never taken the time to read the French Language Charter, have you?
>And yet I'll bet you believe it's a great law.
>
>Tom Box
>CZ94@MUSICA.MCGILL.CA


Tom : Go back to your (lot of) documentation and bring in the right
reference!  Bienvenue/Welcome is _not_ a "raison sociale".

-- 
  \_\    Denis Beauregard  *  internet:beaurega@ireq.hydro.qc.ca
 /   \   Genealogiste officiel : Beauregard/Jarret/Jarest/Vincent
J   __>  Barthelemy Jarret (1471) -> Andre Jarret, sieur de Beauregard (1665)
\_.-===   -> Denis Beauregard (1992)                  Opinions ? Et pis non !
Newsgroups: can.politics,can.general
From: clamen@CS.CMU.EDU (Stewart Clamen)
Subject: Re: Olympic Musing
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon University
Followup-To: can.general
	<1992Jul27.154040.11394@spxtech.qc.ca> <Bs2M4J.9I6@ireq.hydro.qc.ca>
	<1992Jul28.010006.27816@csi.uottawa.ca>
	<SBO.92Jul28122448@froh.vlsi.polymtl.ca>
Reply-To: clamen+@CS.CMU.EDU
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 20:42:17 GMT
X-Posted-From: byron.sp.cs.cmu.edu
X-Posted-Through: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In article <SBO.92Jul28122448@froh.vlsi.polymtl.ca> sbo@vlsi.polymtl.ca (Stephane Boucher) writes:

     > Nntp-Posting-Host: prgv

     > But it is relevant, since you brought up Quebec nationalism.  Athletes
     > come from many COUNTRIES around the world.  There are no "provincial"
     > teams there.

   Aren't the Brittish sending various teams representing
   different regions of the whole country.

No.  (They do that for the Commonwealth games, though.)  Some British
colonies (British Virgin Islands, Hong Kong) do have their own
contingients though, as do some American colonies (US Virgin Islands,
American Samoa, Puerto Rico).
--
Stewart M. Clamen			Internet:    clamen@cs.cmu.edu
School of Computer Science		UUCP: 	     uunet!"clamen@cs.cmu.edu"
Carnegie Mellon University		Phone: 	     +1 412 268 2145
5000 Forbes Avenue			Fax:	     +1 412 268 5739
Pittsburgh, PA 15213-3890, USA
From: CZ94@MUSICA.MCGILL.CA (CZ94000)
Newsgroups: can.politics
Subject: Re: Fautes de francais (was Re: Monument to de Gaulle)
Date: 25 Jul 92 22:22:36 GMT
Organization: McGill University

In article <BryB65.AID@ireq.hydro.qc.ca> beaurega@ireq.hydro.qc.ca (Denis Beauregard) writes:
>In article <24JUL92.15725368.0070@VM1.MCGILL.CA> CZ94@MUSICA.MCGILL.CA (CZ94) writes:
>>In article <BrwCs5.MxJ@ireq.hydro.qc.ca> beaurega@ireq.hydro.qc.ca (Denis Beauregard) writes:
>>>In article <1992Jul23.210907.25640@spxtech.qc.ca> steven@spxtech.qc.ca (Steven C. Potter) writes:
>>>>
>>>>  Mr. Bouchard should take note:-
>>>>
>>>>  less - with or without Mr. Bouchard's approval.
>>>>
>>>
>>>BOUCHER et BOUCHARD sont deux noms de famille differents.  Meme s'il y a
>>>plus possiblement plus de BOUCHARD que de BOUCHER, il n'y a pas de raison
>>>de les meler.  A moins de vivre resolument en anglais sans attacher
>>>d'importance a ces faits folkhloriques que sont les noms des francophones.
>>>
>>Si je te comprends bien, Denis, quand Steve fait une faute de francais,
>>c'est parce qu'il est un mechant colonisateur britannique qui
>>meprise le fait francais au Quebec.  Mais quand toi, tu fais une
>>faute d'anglais, c'est parce que Steve et moi et la reine et le
>>general Wolfe, on t'opprime.  Dans un Quebec independant, tu
>>pourras t'epanouir intellecutalement, et tu ne feras plus de
>>faute d'anglais.  C'est a peu pres ca, ta position?
>>
>
>Completement a cote.
>
>En fait, dans le cas present, ce n'etait pas une faute de francais,
>mais la possibilite de melanger 2 personnes (3 finalement ;-)  )
>qui m'a fait intervenir.
>
Denis, tu a clairement suggere que la raison pourquoi Steve a melange
ces noms, c'est qu'il vit "resolument en anglais sans attacher
d'importance a ces faits folkhloriques (sic) que sont les noms des
francophones."  Toi, tu massacres allegrement la langue anglaise et
personne ne te le reproche, parce que tes idees nous interessent
et on sait que tu fais de ton mieux pour ecrire en anglais.  Je
ne vois pas pourquoi tu as prete de mauvaises intentions a Steve
quand il a fait un simple lapsus.

Tom Box
CZ94@MUSICA.MCGILL.CA
Newsgroups: can.politics
From: steven@spxtech.qc.ca (Steven C. Potter)
Newsgroups: can.politics
Subject: Re: Richard Holden & compulsory bi-elections
Date: 24 Jul 92 17:47:33 GMT
Distribution: can
Organization: Securiplex Technologies Inc., Montreal, Canada
X-Bytes: 895


  I have documentary evidence of Mr Holden's position on the access to
  schools question - as stated in the Quebec National Assembly. He
  supports my position.

  This is in total conflict with the position of the Parti Quebecois.

  How Mr. Holden can state that he would join a party so opposed to
  the principles of individual liberty and freedom after declaring his
  support for tearing up parts of Bill 101 is incomprehensible.

  There are many "odd-ball" characters under the Parti-Quebecois
  umbrella. (That's my personal opinion)

  Richard Holden is welcome to join them.

  
-- 
  ///==================================================================\\\
  ||| Steve Potter:         steven%spxtech@CAM.ORG                     |||
  ||| Expertise/Experience: Computer Systems Engineering / Real Ale /  |||
  |||                       Politics in Education in Quebec            |||
Newsgroups: can.politics
From: skenny@pico.engr.mun.ca (Shawn Kenny)
Subject: Re: Canada 125 - Politicaly involved?
Organization: Memorial University of Newfoundland
Distribution: can
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 13:39:36 GMT

sbo@vlsi.polymtl.ca (Stephane Boucher) writes:

>Somehow I feel that Canada 125 is going behond his mendate
>"to bring Canadians to celebrate Canada's 125 anniversary".
>One thing that keeps coming back to my mind is the
>"...Canada stay together..." somewhere in the theme song.

I too thought that those words were in the song, of which I am getting a
bit tired of hearing/seeing it everyday on TV, but I do believe the
phrase to which you are refferring is ".... sing together Canada".

>Am I the only one to think Canada 125 should have been more
>careful in their approach to avoid politics?


No. Add one more person to the list. :-)
--
=================================
skenny@pico.engr.mun.ca
St. John's, NF, CANADA
"Have a touton or do without'n !"
From: sbo@vlsi.polymtl.ca (Stephane Boucher)
Newsgroups: can.politics
Subject: Re: Education
Date: 27 Jul 92 20:56:27 GMT
	<SBO.92Jul25193352@froh.vlsi.polymtl.ca> <2A732A99.3DDA@telly.on.ca>
Organization: Ecole Polytechnique de Montreal

>>>>> On 26 Jul 92 22:43:34 GMT, evan@telly.on.ca (Evan Leibovitch) said:

  > In article <SBO.92Jul25193352@froh.vlsi.polymtl.ca>
  > 	sbo@vlsi.polymtl.ca (Stephane Boucher) writes:

  > >  > >You talk to people in french and they answer
  > >  > >you in english.
  > >
  > >  > What odd logic can use this statement as proof that these
  > >  > groups are not subject to state discrimination?
  > >
  > >  > If a merchant won't speak to you in the language of your choice, then
  > >  > don't buy from them. If enough customers act this way, then these
  > >  > businesses either:

  > >Evan? Is that you? A couple of months ago I posted a message
  > >asking people if I should by a product from a unilingual
  > >anglophone, and you basically said yes. So did most of the
  > >persons who answered my post.

  > I believe it was said (not just by me) that a number of factors were in
  > play when one chooses where to do business. If a unilingual anglo can sell
  > you an item for less than a francophone would sell it to you, there is
  > a decision to be made. Do you make the purchase that will encourage your
  > culture, or the one which will benefit your pocketbook?

  > How a merchant treats customers should *always* be a factor in whether
  > or not a shopper buys goods there. And I would certainly consider it to
  > a store's detriment if its personnel could not speak my language. It
  > could be a major factor, but not the only factor, in making a purchase
  > decision.

You also concluded your remark by saying something like:
"...So if he sells what you want, and he's the only one,
then buy it." You where essentially telling me to go buy it
somewhere else if I can, but otherwise to not make a fuss
over such a thing. Then you are suggesting to another netter
to simply boycott the involved merchant. You suddenly become
radical, while in the repply to my posting you suggested to
be rationnal.

  > >It sounds contradictory. Don't you think?

  > I have always believed that a francophone boycott of stores that wouldn't
  > offer service in French would be a more effective tool than using the law
  > to force them to change. I have postings almost two years old in which I
  > stated this opinion. Which posting of mine, specifically, was contradictory?

I don't have the posting archived. I'm going from memory.

  > But I'd rather have you reply to the original point, rather than change
  > the subject, don't you think?

Hmmm! the subject says "Education", and you where talking
about a merchants, among other things. Anyway, I was not
attempting to address the central point. I was merely
pointing out what I tought to be contradictory.

--
  ,                          ,                           ,
Stephane Boucher, ing. jr. | Ecole Polytechnique de Montreal
sbo@vlsi.polymtl.ca        | Tel: (514)340-5950
sbo@info.polymtl.ca        | Fax: (514)340-4078
Newsgroups: can.politics
From: evan@telly.on.ca (Evan Leibovitch)
Subject: Re: Education
Organization: Somewhere just far enough out of Toronto
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 00:26:17 GMT

In article <12391@audetf> audetf@Software.Mitel.COM (Francois Audet) writes:

>>>It used to be illegal to teach in french in
>>>a lot of provinces.

>>Yes it did. It isn't now.

>It's too late. The damage has been done and is irrepairable.

It's only too late for those whose minds have closed.

>]It always amazed me that the Quebec francophones who were so fascinated
>]by legislating English-dominated business away, had never thought of
>]boycotting them instead. The boycott is a perfectly legitimate tool to
>]implement change, and it infringies nobody's rights. On the other hand,
>]it *affirms* the rights of stores to operate -- and of people to shop --
>]in any manner they wish.
>
>Francophones (and latins in general) have always feel more comfortable
>with legislating, rather than letting the power to judges, monarchs

... or the Catholic Church? Got any more myths to share?

>]An organized boycott of English companies and stores who gave poor
>]service in French would have made most of them adapt the same policies
>]as the current language laws now force upon them. In might also have
>]encouraged a new generation of more-sensitive businessmen, anglophone
>]and francophone both, without restricting a thing.
>
>I have no doubt about that.

So you agree there *has* been a more sane alternative to the current
measures, except that vengenge and anger are presently  more important
to Quebcois society than reasonable long-term thinking?

>Unfortunately, we didn't have a Ghandi,
>and anyways, passive resistance is not our game... :-)

Didn't take a Ghandi, just someone who's more interested in equality
than pay-back.

And it isn't too late to change.

-- 
 Evan Leibovitch, Sound Software Ltd., located in beautiful Brampton, Ontario
         evan@telly.on.ca / uunet!utzoo!telly!evan / (416) 452-0504
   Said Captain Jean-Luc Picard to the tailor at his machine: "Make it sew!"
From: CZ94@MUSICA.MCGILL.CA (CZ94)
Newsgroups: can.politics
Subject: RE: Bilinguisme
Date: 23 Jul 92 13:52:38 GMT
Organization: McGill University

In article <12344@audetf> audetf@Software.Mitel.COM (Francois Audet) writes:
>
>Actually I don't think I've ever met any francophone with his high
>school education who wasn't reasonably bilingual.
>
I suppose this depends on how you define "reasonably bilingual,"
but I'd say there are a great many francophones with high-school
educations who are effectively unilingual.  Perhaps someone out
there has census figures?

Tom Box
CZ94@MUSICA.MCGILL.CA
Newsgroups: can.politics