From: query@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Samuel Green)
Subject: Re: Walking her to the car.
Organization: Northwestern University, Evanston Illinois.
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1992 08:22:31 GMT

In article <1992Aug15.115026.9466@uoft02.utoledo.edu> dcrosgr@uoft02.utoledo.edu writes:
>In article <1992Aug14.222454.23867@news.acns.nwu.edu>, query@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Samuel Green) writes:
>> In article <1992Aug14.094118.9424@uoft02.utoledo.edu> dcrosgr@uoft02.utoledo.edu writes:
>>>In article <1992Aug14.100032.9183@news.acns.nwu.edu>, query@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Samuel Green) writes:
>>>> Oops, forgot to put this in my earlier message.
>>>> 	I will ask ANYONE who is going out at night (if I am around, of
>>>> course) if they wwant an escort.  Men and women.  Usually, the men will
>>>> decline.  Occasionally, the women will too.  I was told by a 'liberated' (I
>>>> have no idea what, exacvtly, they are liberated from) woman that she
>>>> thought that it was macho bullshit for me to offer to escort her.  She made
>>>> it home safely that night, but, since she was so 'liberated', she went out
>>>> many other times.  Eventually, someone saw her as a victim, and she was
>>>> mugged and raped.  I don't think being 'liberated' is a very good reason
>>>> for wanting to go out alone.
>>>
>>>She made her choices in terms of safety.
>> 
>> 	Actually, she made her choice in terms of feminist dogma.
>
>True. She let the latter dictate her decision on the former.
>
>And we are both about to get flamed big-time.

	Oh, well.
>
>>>
>>>
>>>> 	Since that has happened, I now usually INSIST on escorting a woman
>>>> to where she needs to go.  If she refuses, I will usually follow her from a
>>>> distance of about a block, and then run up to her if it seems like
>>>> something may happen.  Maybe thats wrong, if theyt said I should not go,
>>>> but, hell, I would rather be stubborn and called a jerk or worse, than let
>>>> someone get attacked.
>>>
>>>To force someone else to accept your viewpoint is wrong, and that is what you
>>>do by not permitting her the autonomy of deciding whether she wants to walk
>>>home alone. Why don't you at least be honest, walk up to a woman, and say, "I am
>>>wlaking you home whether you like it or not. You can't refuse, because I'll
>>>just follow you at  distance all the way home. You have no choice. Let's go."
>>>
>> 
>> 	I have, in the past said that to people.  And, more often than not,
>> they thanked me later for my concern.  Of course, I have been insulted or
>> called an alarmist, a macho pig etc..  But, I am willing to risk insult if
>> it means helping someone else avoid something worse...
>
>You are not merely risking being called names, you are decding for toher people
>what is best for them and what they WILL do--You WILL be escorted, like it or
>not.
>

	Actually, I cannot see how I am preventing anyone from doing
anything.  I will not stop someone from going anywhere or doing anything, I
just follow along at a distance, and leave when they get to their
destination.  If I tried to prevent someone from, say, going into a bar, I
would feel like a total schmuch, because THEN I would be telling them what
they should do.  As it is, I am not doing anything like that.  
	Also, note, that police serve much the same function as I do.  The
cruise around looking to help people who are in trouble, or going to the
scene of a disturbance.  They actually interfere far more than I do, since
they WILL actually accost someone and tell them that they shouldn't be
around the area.  They do this in the form of trying to help someone.  

>> 
>> 
>>>You know, it would be interesting if police cruised by, she waved them down,
>>>and said that you wanted to go home with her, but when she declined, you
>>>followed her out anyway, and she is worried YOU are planning on raping her.
>>>
>>>You could earn yourself a record with this behavior, as well as scare a lot of
>>>women.
>>>
>>>Grow up. Let other people choose their life's course.
>> 
>> 	I usually do, I just don't in the matter of letting them do
>> something that is so dangerous that they might not get a chance to learn
>> from it.  If someone wants to do something that I dissagree with, more
>> power to them.  As long as they will at least have the opportunity to
>> realize that it was either a mistake, and learn from it, or realize that it
>> was not a mistake.  It is kind of hard to learn from your errors when you
>> are dead...  And, I think that getting attacked because you chose to go it
>> alone is not an experience that is necessary.  It can be prevented, or at
>> least the risks made smaller.
>> 	As far as tho police picking me up, I am aware of no laws in which
>> it is illegal for a person to walk down the same street as someone...  Yes,
>> the cops COULD harrass me, but, what can they arrest me for?  Record?  My
>> ass.  I could say the truth, that I am worried about his/her safety in
>> these parts, and that s/he refused an escort, so I decided to watch out for
>> him/her, or I could just lie and say that s/he is just paranoid and I have
>> never met them in my life.  Anyway, if I were to be arrested for that, then
>> I would worry more about the cops record after that than mine.  It's not a
>> crime, you know.
>
>You meet a woman at a party, talk to her, offer to "take her home", when she
>declines your offer, you follw her home anyway.
>
>You think the police will not look at YOU as a rapist?
>
>You think that they will not arrest you for SOMETHING? (Refusal to cooperate
>with a police officer in his/her official duties, followed by resisting
>arrest.)

	From about 50 to 100 yards away I am not violatine her space.  I am
not in ny way a threat to her, unless I either run at her or have a gun.  
	I agree, though, that it could be alarming or suspicious.  Okay,
then, no problem.  The police decide to pick me up.  They make up some
bullshit charge.  They arrest me.
	They then, after I make a phone call, have several people at the
police station (people from tha party.  After all, if I am alone with a
woman, there is no real reason for her to decline my offer to walk her
alone, no?) who will attest to my story about my offering the woman an
escort home, her refusing, and my saying to someone that I am going to
follow her to make sure she gets home safely.  But, lets say that they do
not buy it.  Okay, then...
	I will go to see a judge to see whether or not the case even needs
to go to trial.  The judge has NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER (unless the police
fabricate some, and, what would be the point of that?  More paperwork, AND
an increased risk to them if it ever becomes proven that they fudged
evidence) on which to reccommend a trial.  But, lets say he does (either he
wasnt convinced by the witness who testify as to my intentions or the
police lied)
	We go to trial, and, at the trial, my defense attorney points out
my past record with nary a mark, except for, of course, the few letters of
commendation I recieved for upstanding citizenship for when I assisted
shore patrol while off duty, the 10 or so letters I recieved in
appreciation for the crime prevention lectures and assistance I gave to
others while on duty.  
	Basically, before I go on with this (and I will not, unless it is
necessary for someone to see that there really isnt much that legally can
happen to me for just walking down the same street, between 50 and 100
yards from someone etc etc) I just want to point out that my past record,
the fact that I *always* tell people (at least 5, or if there arent that
many there, I will tell them all) that I am going out to make sure that the
person gets home safely, combined with the fact that I have made NO
threatening moves, combined with the fact that she would probably not flag
down the police if she saw me (Perhaps she would think that she had left
something at the party?) and so on...   Then, finally, combine that to the
fact that police would not bother trumping up charges when it is pretty
obvious whats going on, unless I bahaved like an asshole to them or was
otherwise obnoxious...
	Oh, yes, let us also not forget the one other thing that would make
your scenario pretty impossible:  Most women who say that they are raped
are not believed *ESPECIALLY* if they say it was someone they had met
earlier.  It is sad but true, that this happens, but, sometimes it does
protect an innocent person.  Now, considering also that even if she said
that she never met me, that I ave witnesses who would attest to the fact
that she had indeed met me at a party, or whatever, I don't think that it
would get much farther than the police either telling me to go home or them
dropping me off at the party and asking around.  
	Sorry to all the people who got the point here, I just wanted to be
sure that DC also got it, so I am forced to make sure that I explain as
many of the statements as possible.  Seems that I cannot take any amount of
comprehension for granted.


>
>You worry about THEIR records? You think someone with a cam-corder will be
>there to record your conversation with them? When you are before the judge,
>they will tell their story, you will tell yours, and you will be found guilty.
>
>DO NOT KID YOURSELF! Judges and juries both view a police officer's testimnoy
>as being much more honest that they accused who is claimng "They made it up!"
>
	Since I above showed why it would (barring a Quantum Miracle) not
come to a trial, why should I need to, anymore?  Hell, if it did come to a
trial, yes, I would think that they would have reason to worry.  Remember,
ever since LA people have been a little less likely to accept the word of a
cop.

>> 
>>>
>>>> 	As far as following the guys who walk alone, I usually will do that
>>>> too, just in case.  Anyone can get jumped. I have been attacked a few
>>>> times, and in one case, I was lucky enough to have been spotted by a friend
>>>> and helped out.  
>>>> 	Call me stupid, but, I am willing to take a risk that I have been
>>>> informed about and trained to deal with (as much as you can be prepared for
>>>> an attack, I guess) if it means that someone who may or may not have been
>>>> trained as well might be in danger.  I don't think this makes me a hero, or
>>>> anything like that, I just think that it gives someone else a better chance
>>>> of avoiding an attack.
>>>> 	Sam
>>>
>>>Gee Sam, where you ever attacked while walking BACK from one of your
>>>involuntary escort trips? Don't you realize ALL you are doing is taking the
>>>odds someone else will be a victim and transferring them to you?
>> 
>> 	1) NONE of my trips are involuntary.  I do them because I feel the
>> necessity to.  I am happy to do them.  And, yes, I do realize trhat I am
>> adding a risk to myself, and, if you look rather closely at the paragraph
>> of mine above (the one that you quoted in your response) you would see that
>> I acknowledge the increase of risk to myself, for the reason that I have
>> had some training that most have not, and based on my past experiences,
>> have used that training to lessen my risks a bit.  I am willing to take a
>> chance on something happening to me BECAUSE I FEEL THAT I WOULD BE BETTER
>> ABLE TO DEAL WITH IT THAN SOMEONE ELSE.  
>
>I am gald we all have Sam to protect us from our own folly!

	Hey, if more people were willing to do something, other than whine
about the futility of escorting someone, that is, there might be less need
for me or anyone else to escort people.  
>
>>>
>>>I mean, if that is what you want to do, it is a free country, knock yourself
>>>out. Just don't act surprised when it happens, 'cause you are making yourself a
>>>prime candidate for sharing experiences with the woman in your first paragraph.
>>>
>> 
>> 	Hey, like I said, I have been attacked several times, with varying
>> intents, and I am still alive, healthy, and happy with life.  I know the
>> risks, and I accept them.  No one is putting a gun to my head and forcing
>> me to escort people.  
>
>Right. You merely force other people to accept YOUR views.
>
>
>>>DC
>> 
>> Sam
>> 
>> PS:  SInce, after reading my words in the above paragraph, where it says
>> that I understand the risks and so forth, and I feel better able to deal
>> with an attack situation, and also seeing my response, restating my
>> position on that, could you, DC, please not use the "Don't you know
>> the risks?  Dont you realize that all you do is increase your personal
>> danger?" idea anymore.  I have answerred it several times in language that
>> is fairly unequivocal, and I would preferr a discussion on this more
>> appropriate to this forum, rather than just being told that I am waiting to
>> become a victim...  I think that I know this, and, also, like I said, I
>> think that I am more prepared to deal with that situation, if it comes up
>> again.
>> 
>
>I am fully aware that you know the risks. What you are not aware of is that you
>are forcing other people to accept your views by forcefully escorting them.
>
>DC


	As I stated above, l do not see how my following someone at a
distance (and, you cannot claim that you did nto know this, as one of your
major points was related to how the police would treat me because I was
following someone...) effects their choices?  Now, if someone told me point
blank that they *WANT* to be mugged/raped/otherwise attacked, then yes, it
*WOULD* be interfering if I helped prevented this.  But, since I doubt
anyone would want the attentions of an attacker, I say, sheah, RIIIIGHT.
	Also, just to restate the above, I do *NOT* tell people that they
should not do something (and, just because I tell someone that they should
not do something, does that mean that I am preventing them from doing it?)
I caution people against going out alone, and I insist on escorting them.
If they then refuse, I follow them.  Simple.  They get the idea that they
havent been escorted, and I have helped them.  I havent forced anyone to
take any actions that they do not want to do.  Quite simple.

	Sam