HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: oleg@watson.ibm.com (Oleg Vishnepolsky)
Subject: Re: The least nationalistic nation
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1992 18:49:29 GMT
News-Software: IBM OS/2 PM RN (NR/2) v0.11 by O. Vishnepolsky and R. Rogers
Reply-To: oleg@watson.ibm.com (Oleg Vishnepolsky)
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

In  <1992Sep8.173250.19820@cco.caltech.edu>  patricia@cco.caltech.edu
(Patricia M. Schwarz) writes:
> ...
> American culture is picked at and analyzed by everyone, also, but we
> don't shout about it so.

American culture is misunderstood by newcomers from Russia as easily as
the Russian one by Americans. It takes equally long time to realize
that American culture has a lot more to offer than baseball and Oprah show.

> .. But I hope someday that pain will
> subside for you, and you can face life with less anger.

I am not angry, damn it !!

:-) :-) :-)

> ...
> -patricia

Good Luck with your project.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
From: oleg@watson.ibm.com (Oleg Vishnepolsky)
Subject: Re: Cultural differences (Was Re: Who Is Afraid Of Patricia Schwarz?)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 18:51:57 GMT
News-Software: IBM OS/2 PM RN (NR/2) v0.11b by O. Vishnepolsky and R. Rogers
Reply-To: oleg@watson.ibm.com (Oleg Vishnepolsky)
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

In  <LEONID.92Sep11104109@tuna.uchicago.edu>  leonid@tuna.uchicago.edu
(Leonid Andreev) writes:
> Aleksey Y. Romanov writes:
>
>    > There is one big SOVOK( and xSOVOK)/american cultural difference: we(SOVOKs and
>    > xSOVOKs)  are untolerant to the idiotism.
>
> And to all the other things in the world as well.
>
> Oleg Vishnepolsky writes:
>
>    > Russians are a lot less afraid of insulting each other during arguments...
>
> Are you really proud of it? ( I'm not trying to blame you, I just
> didn't get your point... )

Who said anything about being proud ? Are you proud that your last name
is Andreev ? Aleksey wanted to put some logic behind having a heated
argument and I helped him a bit.

If your real question is whether being reluctant to risk offending another
person at expense of miscommunicating with that person is good, my answer is -
it depends on many factors.

Oleg
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
From: avyfdvg@unicorn.nott.ac.uk (David Gatenby)
Subject: _Anekdoty_
Organization: Cripps Computing Centre, University of Nottingham
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 92 10:36:34 GMT

1.  Brezhnev is sitting in his office one day, dipping his index finger into a
dish of red ink and dabbing it on the centre of his forehead.  He repeats this
action for half an hour.  Gromyko, having seen this going on for all this time,
becomes too curious and enters Brezhnev's office. "What the hell are you
doing?" Gromyko asks Brezhnev.

[Apologies to non-Russian-speakers for punchline being in Russian, but the
punchline loses much in translation.]

Brezhnev replies: "Nu, v proshlom mesyatse ya byl v Indiyi, i mne skazala Indira
Gandhi, chto zdes' ne khvataet".

2. Question in final year Philosophy exam at Prague University. 
"Is the Soviet Union a friend or a brother?"
Answer: "A brother, because you can choose your friends."
 
An ex-Soviet pop group is on stage, testing its equipment before a concert. The
microphones are made in Voronezh, and the loudspeakers are made in Tbilisi. The
musician says into the microphone, "Raz, raz," and out of the loudspeakers
comes, "Adyn, adyn!" (ie in "Cyrillic," "AD61H, AD61H")
 
They'll have to do now until I go back to my flat and get my copy of
"_Decyat'_tycyach_anekdotov_."  BTW, have you heard the one about the 'plane
flying over the _pionersky_lager'_?

*David Gatenby, Dept of Slavonic Studies  *                           *
*University of Nottingham, University Park* "Rasslab'sya, otechestvo" *
*NOTTINGHAM, England NG7  2RD             *   (pun, not misspelling)  *
*                         avyfdvg@unicorn.nott.ac.uk                  *
From: RUBAN@hartford.bitnet ("Timur Y. Ruban")
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
Subject: RE: Re: Bulgakov
Date: 8 Sep 92 20:11:00 GMT
Reply-To: "soc.culture.soviet via ListServ" <SCS-L@indycms.iupui.edu>

From:         Igor Belchinskiy <bil@BURKA..AIX.KINGSTON.IBM.COM>

>Or how can one read M&M without knowing Bulgakov' biography
>or Russia reality in thirties?
>Or without knowing history of France in XII(?) century,
>"albigoitzy" (no dictionary at hands)?

Great topic for the discussion!!!  Actually, let's talk about "albigoitzy".
Probably you are reffering to the hypothesis, that Koroviev/Fagot was 'written'
in some ways from the one of knights of "albigoytzi".  There was dome some
research on backgrounds of Master, including an article in one of old "Context"
issues. I think we brought some of this issues from USSR, so I'll try to
take a look and post briefly some ideas.
  In this way there is another literature piece on similar topic, which being
fiction, at the same time can give some light on the events in France, when
"order of albihoitzy" was destroyed by the directions from Pope.  The name
of the piece is "Larez Marii Medichi".  Though it has a lot of 'outside'
things in it, it provides some interesting ideas on the topic.  There was
also made a movie by this book (as usually bad movie).

Tima.
From: verbit@brauer.harvard.edu (Mikhail S. Verbitsky)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
Subject: Re: Shafarevich
Date: 8 Sep 92 09:05:51 GMT
Organization: Sozialistische Patienten Kollektiv

In article <9209060047.AA13911@feds66.Prime.COM> "soc.culture.soviet via ListServ" <SCS-L@indycms.iupui.edu> writes:
>>Date:         Sat, 5 Sep 1992 05:07:53 GMT
>>From: "Mikhail S. Verbitsky" <verbit@COOLIDGE.HARVARD.EDU>

>He was a director of division (zaveduyushchij otdelom) of algebra,
>as he writes himself in his letter.

Man, don't play with words. There is a Russian post - DIRECTOR.
In MIAN, DIRECTOR was Vinogradov (famous author of Vinogradov
method in numbers theory), then DIRECTOR was Bogolyubov. 
Shafarevich was ZAVEDUYUSHCII OTDELOM, not DIRECTOR

>>	What he was never expelled from MIAN (Steklov institute)
>>	could be explained by two reasons: that he was "chlen-corr"
>>	(member-correspondent) of Soviet Academy and that
>>	current Steklov's director (Vinogradov => Bogolyubov)
>>	hold the same anticommunistic-antisovetic opinion as

>And antisemitic also. (I'm speaking of Vinogradov, not sure for Bogolubov.)
>Also, I don't really think Bogolubov held anticommunistic opinions then.
>(I'm sure now he does.:) Vinogradov _did_ hold them.

Bogolyubov is respected physicist (respected for his works
on applied mathematics by physicists, like Zeldovich,
that is). He was anticommunist 	and antisemite. There is a story 
about him and Vinogradov (who hated each other) that once
they have had a public quarrel and called each other
"ozhidovevshii academic Vinogradov" and "ozhidovevshii
academic Bogolyubov".

>>>If yes, were all "barely tolerated" people in such positions?

>>	Sakharov was.

>Sakharov was immediately fired not only from managerial position,
>but even from his institution, as soon as he went out of favor (end of
>60-ies). After several years, as everybody knows, he was even sent to exile.

And this is bullshit! Sakharov was sent to exile in 1980, when
he tried to criticize Afghan war. Before this time, he was
held in FIAN by ac. V. L. Ginzburg as a fulltime worker, and
was a head of a sector for several years in 70-ies. 

Misha.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
From: patricia@cco.caltech.edu (Patricia M. Schwarz)
Subject: Re: Bulgakov
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 11:07:48 GMT

>I guess you and you-like are not a communist but provide a best soil for
>blossom of communism. BTW you can find a lot of real communists who blame
>Stalin in the similar way for moving away from Lenin's road.

Lenin fostered the cult of terror. Stalin only used the tools he was given.

But I still don't understand your insistence.

But...maybe your whole life has been warning people about communism
and now there's nothing left to warn about.

You are safe. Relax. Stop listening for footsteps in the hall at 3am,
because they aren't going to come any more.

-patricia
From: SCATTONL@snycenvm.bitnet ("Linda H. Scatton")
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
Subject: Re: The least nationalistic nation
Date: 9 Sep 92 22:00:38 GMT
Reply-To: "soc.culture.soviet via ListServ" <SCS-L@indycms.iupui.edu>
Organization: State University of New York - Central Administration

I have always understood that what makes literature great is its universal in-
sights and human values.  That doesn't mean that each person from one culture
who reads and analyzes works from another culture identifies totally and com-
pletely with every line written by a writer from another culture, but just that
there are certain commonalities of the human condition which unite us and which
art can capture as no other medium does.  In fact, art is able to get at cer-
tain elements of the human condition that all of the sciences, technologies and
databases of the world can never penetrate.  (This is not to say that they
shouldn't keep trying, however.)  Great literature is rich enough to provide
for all human experience, and that is why, for example, those interested in the
possibility of Gogol's homosexuality have found another prism through which to
read his works; or those, like Ms. Schwarz, who is  conjoining tales of child
abuse and abuse at the hands of the Nazis, have identified common human threads
where others have failed to notice them.
  So, with respect to your example, I myself can't identify with Venichka be-
cause I've never been drunk, not to mention desperate to get booze before the
stores open, but there are many people out there who *can identify*, and they
are not all in the xSU!  For me, personally, therefore, Erofeev is not a favo-
rite, but I'm willing to agree with those who think he's a great writer because
he captures this feeling so completely.
  It's insulting and narrow-minded to claim that only insiders can take part in
the riches which world cultures offer us.  Try a little tolerance instead, - an
approach which is, unfortunately, in very short supply on this list.

Linda Scatton
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
From: bil@burka..aix.kingston.ibm.com (Igor Belchinskiy)
Subject: Re: et tu, Pushkin
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 92 14:18:45 GMT
Organization: Be. I am.

In article <9209090638.AA16664@feds46.Prime.COM> "soc.culture.soviet via ListServ" <SCS-L@indycms.iupui.edu> writes:
>Big, big news. It was not only Gogol, who was a pervert, but also Pushkin,
>as Helen Iswolsky clearly attests to in her _Soul_of_Russia_, p.72:
>
>" Pushkin was gay, lighthearted, and dissipated, but his destiny, the
>" story of his life and death, is marked with a mysterious beauty and
>" sadness."

But why should somebody read book with that title at all? :-)
You may find that Pushkin was a girl - sorry, a female, who sirvived
Napoleon rape at 13.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
From: didinsky@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (didinsky garry)
Subject: Re: The least nationalistic nation
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 22:34:16 GMT

There is something I don't understand.  What does "Red Heat" and "a real
russian man" have to do with each other?  On the same note, I don't think
most russian soldiers stand around and say "da-da" and "net-net" all day
long, as some american movies would lead us to believe.  

As for a "good" portrail of russians, I think "Moscow on Hudson" was not
too bad.  (I think Robin Williams is like totally great, like you know
what I mean.)  
				-Garry (Garik) D.

ps.  Patricia, I have a question for you: Do you think your revealing your
personal unfortunate background makes your statements more credible?  Or,
do you mension it so many times to make us feel bad for you?  Or, you just
want the whole world to know what you went through, so that others on the
network would come up with similar stories, and we all could sit around
and tell our stories?

I am not being trying to be rude, just trying to be psychological :-|
From: vadim@bolvan.ph.utexas.edu (Vadim S. Kaplunovsky)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
Subject: Re: writers interested in stories
Date: 9 Sep 92 03:25:39 GMT

In article <1992Sep4.062244.344@cco.caltech.edu> patricia@cco.caltech.edu  
(Patricia M. Schwarz) writes:
> Well, now that I have alienated some of you out there into thinking
> I am a "PC" maniac and a militant feminist (ask before shooting, please)
> I will announce my real interest in Russian culture.
> 
> I am co-writing a book with a Russian woman about the history of the
> underground culture in Russia. We plan to begin with Pasternak and
> "Dr. Zhivago," and finish with rock culture and finally Parliament
> Square. We are doing together, an American and a Russian, because
> well for many reasons, but maybe that's not important.
> 
Pat, I don't know where did you find a Russian woman dumb enough to go
along with this project, but don't let other Russian on your intentions
when you interview them.  They would think you are mentally diseased
and either refuse to talk to you or feed your some bizarre stories whose
connection to reality (or lack of it) you wouldn't be able to follow.

Seriously, you just don't have the background knowledge of Russian history
culture and life to be able to make any sence out of the sub-surface
cultural layers.

---
Vadim S. Kaplunovsky               | vadim@bolvan.ph.utexas.edu (internet)
Assistant Professor of Physics,    | VADIM AT UTAPHY (bitnet)
University of Texas at Austin.     | UTSPAN::UTAPHY::VADIM (SPAN/HEPnet Decnet)
From: Mike Stukalin
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
Subject: Re: Russian authors & books
Date: 15 Sep 92 14:26:00 GMT
Organization: Eastman Kodak Company, Rochester NY
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <9209142054.AA18845@feds66.Prime.COM>, "soc.culture.soviet via ListServ" <SCS-L@indycms.iupui.edu> writes...
>>From: "Yury M. Mukharsky" <muh@PHYSICS.BERKELEY.EDU>
> 
>>In article <NVmyqB1w165w@halcyon.com> novost@halcyon.com writes:
>>>  Does anyone know if A. Solzhenitsin's books have been published
>>>in Russia?  In particular, has <A Day in the Life of Ivan
>>>Denisovich> been published?
> 
>>It was not only published, it won Lenin's prise. I'm serious. It
>>was after XX party congress.
> 
>It didn't win Lenin award, it was only officially suggested for it.
>It was right after _XXII party congress.

The copy I had in Russia was a paperback published in 1962. I beleive
it was published by Noviy Mir (not in the magazine, but as a separate book)
From what I geather from "Bodals'ia Telenok S Dubom", Alexandr Twardowsky
was also trying to publish some Short Stories (Marfin Dvor, I think) in
Noviy Mir, but was denied. I doubt that Ivan Denisovich ever got any prize,
I know that it was nominated for some literary award, but quickly withdrown
from publication. By 1980's the book was highly illigal, stored at the bottom
shelf of our bookcase, wrapped in newspaper. BTW, it was the size of "popular'
then Vozrozhdenie, Malaya Zemlia an Celina, so I saw some people accurately
attaching the abovementioned covers to Ivan Denisovich. The whole concoction
was pretty neat :-)
Mike.S
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
From: bil@burka..aix.kingston.ibm.com (Igor Belchinskiy)
Subject: Re: Nastinessotry
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 92 14:13:35 GMT
Organization: Be. I am.

In article <SCS-L%92090823032519@INDYCMS.BITNET> "soc.culture.soviet via ListServ" <SCS-L@indycms.iupui.edu> writes:
>>Why are you being so nasty to me? I haven't insulted you.
>>
>>This makes me feel really bad. Please do put me in your kill file,
>>if I'm making such an unpleasant reaction in you.
>>
>>-patricia
>
>Pay no attention to the poor, dead souls who rave here from time
>to time and who, like Austria, have little to look forward to--
>except their past.
>
>-Mka

1.
Muzil, Doderer, Freud - I'm in a good company!!!
Oh, yes - and all historics of the world!!!

2.
Though - do you really think there is no future for 
both Russian and American culture - only past, past, past...?
Maybe you are right for American, but I would strongly disagree in Russian case.

3.
And where is Chichikov?

looking forward to past,
weepingly,
poor dead soul of igor
From: bross@splatter.nas.nasa.gov (Bill Ross)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
Subject: Re: Russian poetry
Date: 9 Sep 92 21:46:13 GMT
Reply-To: bross@splatter.nas.nasa.gov (Bill Ross)
Organization: Numerical Aerodynamic Simulation Facility NASA

From: bil@burka..aix.kingston.ibm.com (Igor Belchinskiy):

> And, I hope, net wisdom would be able to explain to stupid me,
> why people try to write about things they don't understand completely.


I have saved the explanation from another net exchange:


>> What use this all is remains to be seen.
>
> Agreed, but isn't random babbling the idea?


In another light, why do babies babble?



Bill Ross
From: AUSBROOK@UCS.INDIANA.EDU (Entropy Warrior)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
Subject: Re: The least nationalistic nation
Date: 9 Sep 92 20:30:37 GMT
Reply-To: "soc.culture.soviet via ListServ" <SCS-L@indycms.iupui.edu>

>American culture is misunderstood by newcomers from Russia as easily as
>the Russian one by Americans. It takes equally long time to realize
>that American culture has a lot more to offer than baseball and Oprah show.

Doesn't any "culture" include those folks who arrive and
"misunderstand?"  I mean they're there too, part of it all.
And the more the locals deny it, the more it seems reasonable to
infer that the new-comers are very important.

-Mka
From: muh@physics.Berkeley.EDU (Yury M. Mukharsky)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
Subject: Re: Philip Morris
Date: 14 Sep 1992 01:11:28 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: physics.berkeley.edu

In article <15101@mindlink.bc.ca> Robert_Broughton@mindlink.bc.ca (Robert Broughton) writes:
[Lot's of stuff about evil tobacco companies (aka drug pushers) deleted.

Listen, most dangerous thing in this life is life itself. Since
you have been to Russia, maybe you have heard that

"Esli vy ne zhivete to vam i ne umirat'".

Why don't you aim your energy against Hollywood producers, filling
brains of poor mankind with violence, and even more dangerous, stupidity.
Or again American communists, or again food companies, keep producing 
fat. Or again entertaiment industry in general, distracting workers
from productive work. Or against ... You name it, I'll find evil side in
it. Or if you turn it around, why do not you raise you voice for all-
world monastery or commune, where everything will be so neatly organized:
no povetry, no famine, no smokers, no fun. Oops, this is not supposed to
be in this ad. Unfortunately, attempt was made already. No success. Maybe
we did it wrong, want to try again, looking for subjects?

Yury.

Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
From: patricia@cco.caltech.edu (Patricia M. Schwarz)
Subject: Re: Gogol' etc.
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 09:58:38 GMT

>> From: Oleg Vishnepolsky
>>
>> Why the hell is Gogol's sexual orientation important ?

>You don't know why? Just listen:

>+ Thank God, above all, that you are a Russian. For the Russian, at the
>+ present time, there is a way; that way is Russia herself. If only the
>+ Russian loves Russia and everything there is in Russia! It is to this
>+ Love that God Himself now directs us. Without the maladies and suffering
>+ that have accumulated in such numbers in her, and of which we are guilty,
>+ not one of us would feel compassion for her. And compassion is already
>+ the beginning of love.
>+   [Selected Parts from the Correspondence with Friends,
>+   English translation, p.111-112]

>It is truly very important for them to counter this message.
>So, they have found the most relevant subject (well, next
>to the most relevant one, which is, of course, anti-Semitism).

I don't understand....why would his sexual orientation counter that
message? Aren't they independent?

Besides, Gogol wrote love letters to a definitely gay man. Thta's not
exactly a rumor, they're his words.

I don't think it matters to his credibilty on the subject of Russia.

Perhaps that fact that he did so much of his writing outside of
Russia might be more relevant to this paragraph.

Like I said, I'm interested in trying to understad him as an individual,
but his writing is a separate thing. 

-patricia
From: muh@physics.Berkeley.EDU (Yury M. Mukharsky)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
Subject: Re: DEMOCRATIC Estonia
Date: 7 Sep 1992 00:42:30 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: physics.berkeley.edu

>  thietaniemi@cc.helsinki.fi writes:
>
>>
>>The vast majority of applicants will be granted the citizenship (at least
>>90 per cent, when not 95 or more, but the process will take several
>>months). Excluded from the citizenship will surely be those involved
>>in the activities of the red army and KGB, and it goes without
>>saying, gangsters and such criminal elements.

Can you specify if Estonians involved in these activities, criminals and gangsters ...
 will be granted
citizenship? If answer is yes, that _is_ discrimination, if answer
is no, what are they going to do with them: damp them to Baltic sea or
to Russia?

Yury
From: fsdhp@acad3.alaska.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
Subject: M&M, antisemitism, &c.
Date: 10 Sep 92 11:50:32 GMT
Organization: University of Alaska Fairbanks

P.S. I forgot to include my name .... David Pennell
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
From: patricia@cco.caltech.edu (Patricia M. Schwarz)
Subject: Re: The least nationalistic nation
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 12:16:14 GMT

>>For instance, do you have to be Middle European to have feelings
>>about Kafka?

>I bet Kafka is much better understood by Communism and Nazism survivors
>that by anybody else. To get grip on understanding the Soviet system
>you need to start thinking in a Kafkian way.

Kafka never lived under Communism or Nazism, but he did live under
child abuse and wrote very eloquently about it in "The Trial,"

where there is a bed in the attic
and everyone must step on the bed in order to leave
but they just find a courtroom in the attic
when they try to leave
and everyone knows
every attic has a courtroom
and then you die of shame
guilty is the only
possible verdict
is to die of shame

You see, every night I wake up listning for footsteps in the hall
and I die of shame
and i know that my bed was a courtroom
where I was convicted of being innocent
convicted of being six years old and pretty and
wanting to be loved
but not doing that
but I had to otherwise he would cut off my feet with an axe
I had to do it
would you make your child do that?

it's five am now and my death sentence is late
maybe the case has been postponed
maybe i can make myself live one more day
in a world where fathers can make there children
do that

i really want to die

joseph k. doesn't know how lucky he is