HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mr@delfin.com (Mark Rosenberg)
Subject: Bream & Williams (was Williams & sight reading)
Reply-To: mark@delfin.com
Organization: Delfin Systems, Sunnyvale CA
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1992 00:56:46 GMT

In article <1992Nov17.162953.8366@jarvis.csri.toronto.edu>, elf@dgp.toronto.edu (Eugene Fiume) writes:

|> 
|> There's much to admire in Williams, but when it's all said and done I find
|> myself reaching for a Bream CD more often.  That's probably an unfashionable
|> thing to admit to.  

Although I do like John Williams and am certainly impressed by his technique,
I am sometimes less than ecstatic about his interpretation. One of the
more popular Weiss pieces, a Passacaglia that most transcriptions have
in D is recorded on both Williams' The Baroque Guitar and Bream's Baroque
Guitar.

I have not seen Weiss' tablature so cannot speak to whether the liberties
Williams takes are excessive or not. My limited understanding of historical
practices leads me to believe that much if not all of his rhythmic
flexibility is within the bounds. Eight note passages are transformed
into dotted rhythms, impeccably executed ornaments are tastefully added,
and a "rousing" accellerando closes the piece.

After all is said and done, I much prefer Bream's much less flashy
interpretation. He takes the piece at a much more deliberate tempo and
within a much less flexible rhythmic framework uses subtle rubato, dynamics,
tone color changes to shape each phrase. To me, Bream's interpretation has
a sense of lingering on and savoring the music while Williams seems to be
in too much of a hurry.


-- 
Mark Rosenberg
internet:mark@delfin.com
phone: (408) 562-1126	fax: (408) 748-1140
snail: Delfin Systems, 3000 Patrick Henry Drive, Santa Clara, CA 95054-1814
From: fisher@majestix.cs.uoregon.edu (John Merlin Fisher)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical.guitar
Subject: Buying Guitars
Date: 22 Nov 92 20:45:47 GMT
Article-I.D.: cs.1992Nov22.204547.28404
Organization: University of Oregon Computer and Information Sciences Dept.

Hello all,

I am interested in getting a classical guitar, but I know nothing about
them. I own a steel-string Takamine, and while it does great for folk/rock,
campfires, and the like, it doesn't lend itself real well to classical,
which I have been leaning toward lately. I am not after a real expensive
guitar - just something that plays nice, and will last a good while. I
recently saw some used guitars, in great condition, made in Mexico. I don't
recall the brands. They were selling for $100-$150. Are these pieces of
junk, or will these last me for a while? Are there any brands I should
consider/not consider?


Thanks for the help,
John
From: radams@cerritos.edu
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical.guitar
Subject: Re: Need a Recomendation
Date: 20 Nov 92 00:57:50 GMT
Organization: Cerritos College, Norwalk CA

In article <1992Nov19.160346.1098@bnr.ca>, 
loyola@bnr.ca (Nelson Loyola) writes:

> Could someone please recomend a good classical guitar book?

I recommend finding a good teacher first. This may eventually end up in
some FAQ but if you have a good teacher then it hardly matters what book
you use (maybe the teacher will have her/his own materials). Now, the
question may follow, "how do I find a good teacher?". I hope others will
contribute to answering this since I don't want to slight this topic but
I will try to answer this potential question a little bit here. Years ago,
I used to teach classical guitar in a music store ('70's and early '80's)
and there was another guitar teacher who dabbled a little in classical but
taught other styles mostly. I noticed that he was getting more classical
students than me at one point and I was real curious about this since I
had a B.M. degree in classical guitar performance and had performed and
taught classical guitar for some time and had studied under fine teachers
and performers. So I asked a sales person in the store who handled most of
the inquiries about guitar lessons  how he handled the calls. I was then
charging only $10 a half hour and the other teacher $7. Well, you may have
guessed it, he would answer an inquiry concerning guitar lessons by saying
"Yeah sure we teach guitar here, we have two teachers: one charges $10 a
half hour and the other charges $7 a half hour, and they are both great,
so which one do you want?". Needless to say, I corrected this ridiculous
situation by having him mention my background briefly and not quote prices
over the phone.  But my point is this, when looking for a good teacher,
you can't bargain shop like you were going to Kmart. Look first to the 
background including education (musical, guitaristic, etc), find out if they 
can play. Mark Twain once said that "he who can does, he who cannot teaches" 
but in a practical subject like guitar playing, technique, musicianship, it 
takes one who can do it to teach it, at least to some reasonable degree of
proficiency.

> I'm thinking of eventually taking lessons after I build up the dexterity
> in my  hands.  Does  anyone  have an  opinion  on this or should I start
> right away with taking lessons?
> 

If you try it on your own, you may end up with faulty hand positions or
incorrect habits that have to be undone, causing frustration for teacher
and student alike. 


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
	Roger Adams
	radams@cerritos.edu               To those in whom love dwells,
	Cerritos College                  the whole world is one family.
	11110 Alondra Blvd                             A Hindu Proverb
        Norwalk, California 90650
	USA        		          292 Dwapara :-)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: basinski@biosci.arizona.edu (Mark Basinski)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical.guitar
Subject: Re: Yngwie Malmsteen
Date: 17 Nov 92 18:00:27 GMT
Followup-To: rec.music.classical.guitar
Organization: Univ. of Arizona

In article <1992Nov17.040010.28833@unlv.edu>, xanadu@t-bone.cs.unlv.edu
(Thomas Wilson) wrote:
> Are we not allowed to discuss modern composers, then?  The key to 
> his music is he doesn't limit himself to the music and instruments 
> of the ancient greats.  He has taken the classical style in a new 
> direction, and there's nothing wrong with applying technology to 
> enhance the energy.  His speed is his passion.  (Granted, he is 
> arrogant, but so, I've heard, was Mozart). 

  I'm sorry, but I just can't seriously consider Yngwie a "modern
composer". Yes, the guy has great electric chops, but in terms of 
musicality, it's pretty banal stuff. If all it takes to impress
you is fast playing, cool. I find his stuff pretty tedious after
about a minute...

  I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "he has taken the classical
style in a new direction"..what he does has nothing to do with the
classical style in the strict meaning of the word (that is, in the
style of Mozart, Haydn, and pre-late Beethoven). In the broader sense
of "art music", he is not particularly imaginative (he's good at
imitating Paganini), and not particularly interesting.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mark Basinski      Internet: basinski@biosci.arizona.edu
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical.guitar
From: quigley@acs.ucalgary.ca (Martyn Thomas Quigley)
Subject: Re: Re: Williams and the Romeros
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 92 03:21:51 GMT
Organization: The University of Calgary, Alberta

markc@hydra.maths.unsw.EDU.AU () writes:

>I heard Williams play the Chaconne in concert a couple of years ago. He had
>no difficulty with the scale passages at all. In fact he flew through them.
>at amazing speed, maintaining that famous crystal like clarity. You should
>keep in mind that Williams is a notoriously lazy guitarist, who relies on
>his extraordinary technique to see him through when he has not been doing
>a lot of playing. Case in point. Williams stayed with Peter Calvo, who 
>now runs the Australian Institute of Music, a few years ago. He was to give
>a performance of the Orange Juice concerto. Williams did not practice at all
>in the days before the concert. He played a couple of scales on the day,
>then went out and gave a note perfect performance. He is the only guitarist
>I know of who can do that. [.....]

Yes, quite so.  Mike Watson (of the Spanish Guitar Centre in Bristol) told
me of the time Williams was performing in Bristol, and staying with Watson.
Apparently, about 3 hours before the performance (no practice that day,
of course) Watson suggested tootling down to the hall, but Williams 
wouldn't be budged.  Eventually, they got to the hall about 10 minutes 
before kick-off time, Williams put on his paisley shirt (this *was* in 
the early 70's), picked up his box, did a quick hammer-and-snap up and 
down the fretboard and went on stage.

Another story.  About 10 years ago I saw a tv documentary on Andre Previn.
He had written a guitar concerto and invited JW down to his country
home.  Previn showed the ms to Williams and suggested he might want to 
look at it for a few weeks before getting together again to try it out.  
Williams got Previn there and then to play the piano reduction, Williams 
picked up his guitar and *never having seen the score* just *sight read* 
the entire concerto, which was still in ms form and not arranged nor 
fingered for guitar.  Previn said afterwards that it was the most 
astonishing display of musicianship he had ever seen in his life.  And
Previn is a world-class pianist himself.

Mart
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical.guitar
From: xanadu@t-bone.cs.unlv.edu (Thomas Wilson)
Subject: Re: Yngwie Malmsteen
Organization: UNLV
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 92 03:43:48 GMT

In article <basinski-121192131440@lully.biosci.arizona.edu>  
basinski@biosci.arizona.edu (Mark Basinski) writes:
> In article <92317.092043KAP118@psuvm.psu.edu>, KAP118@psuvm.psu.edu  
(Kevin
> Polcovich) wrote:
> > 
> > Yngwie Malmsteen. Any Comments on style, music, etc.?
> >                        Just Wondering.....Kevin
> 
>   what, is Yngwie a classical guitarist? The ony stuff I've heard from  
him
> is the kind of super-speedy techno-whiz plectrum playing that adolescent
> males seem to get a particularly big kick out of - not particularly
> interesting musically, at least not to me. Does he play classical
> guitar? I'm sure you can get some discussion on him in alt.guitar
>  
-------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
--
> Mark Basinski      Internet: basinski@biosci.arizona.edu

You obviously have not heard his renditions of Bach, Beethoven, Pagannini, 
or his _Rising_Force.  He was first schooled in classical guitar (Bach 
and Pagannini especially) before he started writing this super-speedy-
blah-blah-whatever-you-call-it.  His sister is a classical flutist, 
and she and a symphony orchestra are featured on his latest album, 
_Fire_and_Ice_.  I would imagine the guy knows more classical pieces 
than you, so think before you post!  Many people said the same thing 
about Nicoli Pagannini in his day. 

				-Tom 
				(progressive neo-classical, 
				but classical nonetheless)
\________________________________________________________________________/
				"All I Want is Everything" -Y. Malmsteen
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical.guitar
From: uswsp@mathcs.emory.edu (William S. Pittard {EUCC})
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical.guitar
Subject: Classical ==> Jazz Fingerstyle
Date: 18 Nov 1992 17:44:44 -0500
Organization: Emory University
NNTP-Posting-Host: emory.mathcs.emory.edu
Keywords: guitar, jazz


I played classical guitar for quite a while before I moved to
jazz fingerstyle. This isn't to imply that its a natural progression
(pardon the pun) but the appeal of improv was overwhelming to me.
In any event I found the skills I had learned as a classical player
to be invaluable as I made the transition. Those hours of playing
scales really paid off although I did have to revisit harmony
theory more in depth to figure what to play over certain progressions.
The right hand exercises in classical guitar are great preparation for
any fingerstyle since the classical pieces seem to require more
rigorous right hand technique than  many of the jazz arrangements.
Also the legato exercises in the classical studies make it all the
easier to put out "flowing" melodies in a jazz piece.

One thing my classical studies did not prepare me for was the 
need to know many different ways to play chords. Sure I was encouraged to 
analyze what I was playing but I was way too busy getting the
fingering down and worrying about right hand technique to
care about the Ab diminished I was playing over. Chord knowledge
is power- in any form of music but certainly in jazz.

One piece that really translates well to the jazz sound is Debussy's
"The Girl With The Flaxen Hair". I learned this piece while playing
classical and only later realized that it had endless possibilites
in the jazz world. Of course, if you are a stickler for the classical
sound , then you probably won't like it. One other piece that is good
for fingerstyle is "The Mysterious Barriacdes". Its not necessarily
suitable for the jazz treatment but it sounds great (at least to me) on
a steel string. (Both of these pieces can be found on one of 
Christopher Parkening's records). One thing I thought was funny is that 
jazz players call most fingerstyle pieces "chord melody"
pieces whereas classical players really don't make much distinction
between rhythm and lead voices since its something you are always
contending with.    

-- 
Steve Pittard {EUCC}
Emory University, Atlanta, GA 
Internet: uswsp@mathcs.emory.edu   BITNET (non-domain): uswsp@emory
UUCP: { sun!sunatl, gatech }!emory!uswsp
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical.guitar
From: elf@dgp.toronto.edu (Eugene Fiume)
Subject: Re: Williams & sight reading
Organization: Department of Computer Science
Date: 17 Nov 92 21:29:53 GMT

In article <basinski-171192111111@lully.biosci.arizona.edu> basinski@biosci.arizona.edu (Mark Basinski) writes:

>				He told us of the premiere of his
>Toronto guitar concerto a couple of years before. Basically, Brouwer 
>wasn't able to get *any* of the music to Williams until just a couple
>of weeks before the performance, and from what Brouwer said that night,
>he couldn't get the last movement to WIlliams until the day before, so in
>the premiere performance, Williams was basically sightreading this stuff,
>really fast and difficult scale passages, and nailing it. Brouwer was
>conducting, and said he was just astounded at how well Williams played,
>and that during the last movement, at one point he looked over at 
>Williams, furiously wailing, and Williams half-glanced at Brouwer, and
>smilingly muttered "you bastard!" under his breath without dropping a
>note...

There's a retrospective film of Guitar 88 (correct year?  the years are
blurring together) held in Toronto, which shows some of the rehearsals and
some of the performance.  One could feel the tension that must have
pervaded the rehearsals, knowing that no one really had time to learn their
parts.  The relationship between Williams and Brouwer appeared warm and
respectful.  It's obvious that Williams was seeing most of the music for
the first time that week, and his capacity to finger difficult passages at
first reading was amazing.  Considering guitarists are generally thought to
be bad sight-readers, it is nice to see a guitarist among the very best
sight-readers.

There's much to admire in Williams, but when it's all said and done I find
myself reaching for a Bream CD more often.  That's probably an unfashionable
thing to admit to.  The question of live performances is another issue
altogether though.
-- 
Eugene Fiume, Dynamic Graphics Project
Department of Computer Science, University of Toronto
elf@dgp.toronto.edu, (416) 978-5472
From: radams@cerritos.edu
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical.guitar
Subject: Angel Romero plays Aranjuez on TV
Date: 20 Nov 92 18:50:03 PST
Organization: Cerritos College, Norwalk CA

I just saw a videotape of Angel Romero playing the Aranjuez concerto
on PBS. Angel is incredible to watch and I intend to view it several times
more as a guitar clinic. He started playing around 2 or 3 years of age
under the tutelage of his father Celedonio Romero which most of you already
know. What you may not know is that he does not kick back and rely on
natural talent like other guitarists who were born with a guitar in their
hands. A student of his says that Angel is quite fastidious at checking all
aspects of his technique daily, checking sound, finger curvature, finger
motion etc. etc.  The work he does really shows in the perfect confidence
(almost swaggering confidence) and relaxed attidude he projects while he
performs, having room to enjoy himself (some critics might even say he is
a bit cocky but I would refer to it as just enjoying himself). This is not
easy when you are playing the Aranjuez at a virtuoso tempo, televised live
in front of an large audience. He played solidly and nearly flawlessly (were
talking live folks, not a studio recording). I'm told that he makes a living 
on this piece and he plays it like he owns it. It may play on PBS in other
areas (it was shown in California 11-13) soon or perhaps some of you have
seen it. 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
	Roger Adams
	radams@cerritos.edu               To those in whom love dwells,
	Cerritos College                  the whole world is one family.
	11110 Alondra Blvd                             A Hindu Proverb
        Norwalk, California 90650
	USA        		          292 Dwapara :-)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: steyn@cs.rochester.edu (Gavin Steyn)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical.guitar
Subject: Re: Help out a new guy
Date: 19 Nov 92 00:56:22 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Rochester

In article <basinski-181192144631@lully.biosci.arizona.edu> basinski@biosci.arizona.edu (Mark Basinski) writes:

>		* the "ringing-through" sound is actually fairly dissonant (technically
>	    speaking) and to "early-renaissance-ears" might have been considered
>	    very ugly and to be avoided!

This might actually be an argument that Mudarra intended the sound to
ring through.  According to some liner notes (I think), he wrote an
introduction to the piece that says that although it may sound dissonant,
the performer should keep playing it, and he will eventually come to
like the sound.  (Sounds a lot like modern composers :-) )

Gavin Steyn
steyn@cs.rochester.edu
"So he's had the lifelong ambition of reversing the polarity of the earth?"
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical.guitar
From: tom@cpac.washington.edu (Tom May)
Subject: Re: Yngwie Malmsteen
Organization: Center for Process Analytical Chemistry, UW
	<1992Nov17.034348.28278@unlv.edu>
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 08:00:09 GMT

In article <1992Nov17.034348.28278@unlv.edu> xanadu@t-bone.cs.unlv.edu (Thomas Wilson) writes:
>You obviously have not heard his renditions of Bach, Beethoven, Pagannini, 
>or his _Rising_Force.  He was first schooled in classical guitar (Bach 
>and Pagannini especially) before he started writing this super-speedy-
>blah-blah-whatever-you-call-it.  His sister is a classical flutist, 
>and she and a symphony orchestra are featured on his latest album, 
>_Fire_and_Ice_.  I would imagine the guy knows more classical pieces 
>than you, so think before you post!  Many people said the same thing 
>about Nicoli Pagannini in his day. 

What really annoys me is that he doesn't credit all the composers he ripped
off on "Yngwie J. Malmsteen's Rising Force" (don't know about his other
albums).  It just says "All Compositions, Lyrics, and Arrangements by
Yngwie J. Malmsteen".  My opinion of Yngwie drops a bit further every time
I find out that yet another cool section is actually ripped off and
uncredited classical.  I think it's too bad that 99.9% of metalheads
will never know where that music really came from and never be inspired
to listen to it or play it.

P.S. When I saw Yngwie many years ago, one of the opening bands chided
the audience, most of whom were sitting as opposed to banging their heads
or whatever, for sitting down by saying "Hey, are you guys into Beethoven
or something?"  And then Yngwie starts his show with Bach's Tocatta and
Fugue in D minor.
--
Tom.
From: seifert@netcom.com (Rich Seifert)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical.guitar
Subject: Re: Help out a new guy
Date: 19 Nov 92 02:53:31 GMT
Article-I.D.: netcom.1992Nov19.025331.28433
Distribution: usa
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)

In article <basinski-181192144631@lully.biosci.arizona.edu>, basinski@biosci.arizona.edu (Mark Basinski) writes:
> In article <1992Nov17.201710.324@netcom.com>, seifert@netcom.com (Rich
> Seifert) wrote:
> >
> > I think that what most people (including myself) like about this piece 
> > are those beautiful dissonances ringing through. This requires playing
> > the dissonant arpeggios cross-string (1-2-3, and occasionally 4).
> > 
> > What is interesting is that the original tablature indicates that this
> > is NOT what was intended! Mudarra shows those arpeggios done by 
> > changing the left hand fingering on the SAME string, which of course
> > eliminates any ringing through. 
> > 
> > We are left with a decision on maintaining the intent of the composer,
> > or going for the most beautiful (to our ears) sound. I (any many
> > others) opt for the latter, but it is just interesting to note that
> > this is more OUR sensibilities than the composer's.
> > 
>  Don't forget that the original publications were kind of like today's
>  "E-Z Guitar" methods, in that they were intended for a non-professional
> market, and much of the music in them is fairly easy (though there are 
> plenty of exceptions to that too!). There is also other issues:
> 	
>   * the "ringing-through" sound is actually fairly dissonant (technically
>   speaking) and to "early-renaissance-ears" might have been considered
>    very ugly and to be avoided!
> 

I agree. The dissonances we "love" must have been quite distasteful to their
ears. Mudarra himself said, "...From here to near the end there are some
discords, if played well they do not sound bad." (per Noad) Obviously,
he was excusing himself for using dissonance!

>   *  the kind of strings they had might not have sustained enough to have
> 	    the same kind of effect?
>

Hmm. Probably true with gut strings, especially under lower tension.
 
> 
>The music deserves to at least be studied with the original fingering, to 
> see if you can get the feel of what the composer wanted, but if you like
> the campanella effect (and it was used by other lutenists/guitarists of the
> period, Sanz in particular), then play it that way.
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here I disagree. First off, de Mudarra was mid-16th century Renaissance.
The Fantasia in question was published in 1546. Gaspar Sanz was mid-late
17th century (almost 150 years later), and is typical of the Spanish
Baroque guitar composers. The campanella is a widely-used effect in
Baroque music, but I have not seen it much (or at all) in the Renaissance.



-- 
Rich Seifert                    Networks and Communications Consulting
seifert@netcom.com              (408) 996-0922
                                (408) 996-2860 FAX
"... specialists in Local Area Networks and Data Communications systems"
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical.guitar