From: muehlhau@en.ecn.purdue.edu (John Muehlhausen)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: ABSOLUTE MORALS, ETC.
Date: 15 Apr 92 00:03:29 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network

In article <GOEHRING.92Apr14152855@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> goehring@mentor.cc.purdue.edu writes:
>muehlhau@en.ecn.purdue.edu (John Muehlhausen) writes:
>>Lets face it, there are absolutes and they are worth proclaiming, one
>>of which is the salvation plan of the Bible.

The absolutes I speak of are those things which are an integral part of God's
plan.  The only reason we can put our finger on many of them is that they are
communicated to us by God through his word, the Bible.  They do exist without
the Bible, but they are harder to define.  They are those things which
mankind as a whole recognizes as "wrong" and "right" regardless of the social
climate or time frame.

These things do exist, but the proof is largely in the heart.  I can only say
that if one looks at all of the civilizations which have ever existed and
compare their morals (not customs, not religions) you will find that they are
_suprisingly_ similar.  Why would this be unless they are _absolute_ morals
which each person knows just because they are human?  Consider an interchange 
in which a one person has lied to another, and been found out.  Will the person
who has lied argue that lying is OK, or that they have a valid reason for
breaking an _absolute_ "rule".

These are morals, and not instincts, as I will attempt to show:  Instincts
are those things which we have a strong natural desire to do.  If someone
falls through the ice, the strong natural desire is to save yourself, while
the _absolute_ "right" is to try and save the other person, even if it puts
you at risk (which would be contradictory to "survival of the fittest").  We
see then that these _absolute_ morals are not the desire to do something, but
rather the desire to not do them but the "gut feeling" that one ought to.
Other such examples are found in every aspect of life.

Because all are not so obvious, "fundamental" Christians believe that the
Bible is where they are to be found, based on its uniqueness in the world of
literature _and_ its coherence with what people know to be true in their
heart.  They are not an issue though when speaking of salvation, because a
person is nat saved based on what they do.  Morals are only the indicator
that all need salvation; that all have fallen short of the Glory of God.
So why adhere to them?  As a part of God's creation they are beneficial to
the way we live our daily lives.  Some have more of an effect than others,
which is why some get harped on more than others.  I do not claim to be
living all of them all of the time, but when I do I am much happier.

>I do not see this at all.  I don't even accept the posit that there
>are moral absolutes.  Justify your claim for me, will ya?  

Does that help any?

>>If you cannot accept anything as fact then I wonder how sure you are
>>of your salvation.
>
>What do you mean by "salvation"?  What is it that I need to be saved
>from?  When answering, please keep in mind that I am not Christian and
>do not believe in the various myths regarding God, Jesus, Satan, ad
>nauseam.

OK, scratch God and all related "balogna" for a sec:  Why do you, as a
personal, creative, thinking, feeling inividual exist?  The answer to this
without religion is to make a minor mark on history and die.  Religious
persons simply believe that there is more to it than that, and they believe
this because God _has_ made himself evident in all creation.  "Be still and
know that I am God."  If you want we can get into a discussion about entropy 
and ordered energy and the personal aspect of God as seen in creation, but you 
can go out and get good books on this.

"Salvation" simply refers to the notion (in Christianity) of accepting God as
He has revealed Himdself to man and died for us as a man in order that He may
erase our sinful nature and "keep" us for the new heaven and the new earth.
This creation _chose_ to go awry, so as spiritual beings (in His creative
image) we are given a second chance.  This choice is crucial, because without
it we are all puppets and not beings who have chosen to be re-united with our
creator.  God cannot "keep" people who do not want Him.

>As far as accepting "anything as fact": I can accept as fact those
>data which can be clearly demonstrated to be true.  The existence of
>God is by no means such a datum.

The existence of God _is_ such a datum if you expand your toolbox of senses
which can prove something to include faith.  I know this might sound fishy,
but I do not believe a person can _know_ God exists without first accepting
that he does.  Read Hebrews 11 if you are genuinely interested.  When I first
decided to give Christianity a go I was not 100% convinced, but I believed
that it was true anyway.  This is what you may call a "leap of faith".
Looking back, having talked _with_ God (both prayer and answer) and having
felt the presence of the Holy Spirit in my life, I can say now that I am 100%
sure that God exists, and that the Bible is His word, and that He will
receive anyone who wants to renew the relationship that was designed to be a
part of our human experience.

"Thinking if I could see I would believe, then someone said believe and you
will see.  Sight unseen" - Petra



John M.
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc