HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: khalid@bu-bio.bu.edu (Rasheed A. Khalid)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: SOC.RELIGION.ISLAM.AHMADIYYA
Summary: Let's discuss and not quarrel
Date: 7 Nov 92 05:33:14 GMT
Organization: Biology Department, Boston University, Boston, MA, USA

In article <1992Nov6.163553.3513@HQ.Ileaf.COM> edb@Ileaf.COM (Ed Blachman) writes:
>How about calling the newsgroup for Ahmadi Muslims
> soc.religion.ahmadiya-islam?  That way it would have the
> world 'islam' in the name, which seems to be of great im-
> portance to Ahmadis, without being placed as a subgroup of
> soc.religion.islam, which seems to be of great importance
> to non-Ahmadis.
>
>Just a suggestion.
>
>Ed Blachman	edb@ileaf.com	(or)	...!uunet!leafusa!edb

Great idea, but I've also suggested the following to both Ahmadis and
non-Ahmadis:

1.  Since Ahmadis claim that they are the true Muslims
and that non-Ahmadis are not, they should be allowed
a newsgroup with the name soc.religion.islam.ahmadiyya,
or the one that Ed suggests above, if they accept it, and

2.  Since non-Ahmadis have the same claim of being true
Muslims as opposed to Ahmadis, they too should be
allowed a newsgroup soc.religion.islam.non-Ahmadiyya.
Under the present name (soc.religion.islam) Ahmadis
may raise the fair objection that their religion, Islam
is being misrepresented by non-Ahmadis who they consider
non-genuine Muslims.  Therefore, they may argue in
favor of changing the name of soc.religion.islam, since
they are not represented there in spite of being Muslims
themselves.  I think such an objection from Ahmadis would
be fair -- I wonder why it has not yet been voiced from
their side!

In this way the quarrel should, in principle, be settled,
as both groups claim to be Muslim; Ahmadis claim to be
Ahmadis and non-Ahmadis claim to be non-Ahmadis.  Straight
logic holds, that they should accept the idea of two clearly
defined groups if they have brains in their heads -- just
kidding, guys, don't take it personal -- I sometimes lose
mine, not now, though!

Regards,
Rasheed.

Newsgroups: news.groups,news.admin.policy
From: stanley@skyking.OCE.ORST.EDU (John Stanley)
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Organization: Oregon State University, College of Oceanography
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 01:05:37 GMT

In article <1992Nov10.210742.16005@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov writes:
>stanley@skyking.OCE.ORST.EDU (John Stanley) writes:
>>"You guys" consists of everyone on the net. Including you. Everyone on
>>the net had a chance to voice their opinion. The results of that voice
>>said "Yes, rename this group."
>
>Please speak in accordance with the facts. 

I spoke a fact.

>"Everyone on the net *who could
>figure out that there was a vote going on* had a chance to voice their
>opinion."

Everyone on the net had the opportunity to know there was a vote going
on. Thus, by your statement, you admit that everyone had a chance to
vote. 

>>>That's unfounded and untrue. I refuse to rmgroup it and that's the way it
>>>stands. If you don't like it, run a vote. <grin> 
>>Why bother. If you don't like the results, you will just ignore it.
>
>That's no fairer then what you folks have already done.

That is a great deal less fair. You are taking a unilateral action.
Honoring the result of a vote is following the expressed will of the
net.

>>The users have spoken. 
>
>Not all of them. Not yet. 

All of them that chose to speak, spoke. Neither you nor I can speak for
those who choose not to, nor can we assume what they do or do not want,
nor can we assume why they did not speak when they had the chance. You
claim that it is because they did not know they could. The only reason
they would not is if they chose to ignore the information that told them
they could vote. That is not the same as not being told.

Xref: sparky news.groups:20291 rec.music.synth:17732
From: jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard)
Newsgroups: news.groups,rec.music.synth
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Date: 5 Nov 1992 17:58:09 GMT
Followup-To: news.groups
Organization: UT Health Science Center Houston

In article <Bx96HD.5rF@unix.amherst.edu> twpierce@unix.amherst.edu (Tim Pierce) writes:
>Discussion of new groups and group reorganizations goes on in
>news.groups.  RFDs and CFVs proposing the change are crossposted to
>the groups that they affect.

...as happened in this case.
There were two RFDs and two CFVs posted to rec.music.synth. Those needing
verification can get the file with the archived messages from ftp.uu.net, in
/usenet/news.announce.newgroups/rec/rec.music.makers-newgr.
-- 
Jay Maynard, EMT-P, K5ZC, PP-ASEL | Never ascribe to malice that which can
jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu      | adequately be explained by stupidity.
     We survived Jimmy Carter; we'll (probably) survive Bill Clinton.
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: dkl@xcluud.sccsi.com (David Leikam)
Subject: Re: Re. soc.religion.islam.ahmadiyya-moderated.
Organization: Greater Montrose UFO Appreciation Society & Data Haven
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 16:28:49 GMT

In article <1992Nov5.205322.181@otago.ac.nz> amjad@otago.ac.nz writes:
>
  [ 168 lines of 4-deep nested quoted articles omitted...]
>
>Well done Nasir Jamil.
>Amjad Tariq, New Zealand.

   Amjad, please tell me why it was necessary for you to requote the ENTIRE
article to this group, merely to express your agreement with it? This is
what we call "wasting bandwidth".
 
   What's worse, the entire article contains not a word that is relevant
to the purpose of news.groups. All of it should've been confined to the
Islam newsgroups.

  Oh, never mind, I've given up expecting any of you to confine yourselves
to the issues relevant to creating the new group. If I spot any more
of these lengthy, misposted diatribes, I don't plan to read all the
way to the end just to find some banal comment about "well done" at the
end.
 
  I plan to just junk them unread. And I plan to vote "no", unless someone
manages to return this discussion to issues of group-creation, convinces
me we need this group -- and doesn't do it at the bottom of a 200-line
utterly irrelevant quotation.


-- 
dkl@xcluud.sccsi.com | My company doesn't know Usenet exists, and my boss
and other places,    | would have kittens if he thought I spoke for them.
even more unsavory.  | My opinions are better than theirs anyway.
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: cbnorman@cayley.uwaterloo.ca ()
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.games.frp.campaign
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 22:26:39 GMT

In article <1da04lINN2a1@MINERVA.CIS.YALE.EDU> randall-joshua@yale.edu (Joshua Randall) writes:
>In article <Bx7pts.48A@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu> cbnorman@cayley.uwaterloo.ca () writes:
>>I've never said FidoNet was Usenet, infact I've said it isn't.  My only purpose
>>for drawing on my FidoNet experience is to say that other people besides 
>>myself, hundreds infact, enjoy reading electronic campaigns.  The fact that
>>FidoNet is not Usenet is irrelivent (infact, it's kind of silly for you to
>>point out the obvious).
>
>Hoo boy, now you've done it...
>
>BROIL MODE ON
>
<much incompetant cooking deleted>

>In fact, people who read FidoNet probably have *less* of an idea of
>what is good and what is not that those who don't!
>
<I just had to leave this flame in, as it is truly classic>

>You say "other people besides myself, **HUNDREDS** infact, enjoy
>reading electronic campaigns" (emphasis gleefully added).  Hundreds of
>people read the BBS posting I was on.  But let me make this very
>clear.  There are over 1 million people who read UseNet.  That is
>*four* orders of magnitude greater than your pathetic "hundreds".
>

Perhaps you should review some of your basic math skills Josh.

Yes, over one million people read UseNet.  I'm sure that less than 1% of
them read rec.games.frp.*.  I haven't seen this as justification for its
deletion (or the deletion of any other newsgroup)

More importantly, as you have so gleefully pointed out in the past, FidoNet
is small beans compared to UseNet.  There are far less people reading Fido
than are reading UseNet.  Since hundreds this "far less number of people"
enjoy reading electronic campaigns, it follows (perhaps you should take
a logic course too) that it is likely that many hundreds (perhaps thousands)
will enjoy reading electronic campaigns on UseNet.

Some advice: Next time you reply to one of my posts, sit down and think it
over for awhile.  It is bad strategy to gleefully present facts which
strengthen my argument.

Have a nice day.

Xref: sparky news.groups:21215 rec.games.netrek:9563
From: horde@reed.edu (Mr. Heiji Horde)
Newsgroups: news.groups,rec.games.netrek
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.games.netrek reorganization (long)
Keywords: RIDICULOUS.  SIMPLY RIDICULOUS.
Date: 11 Nov 92 18:33:31 GMT
Organization: Twisted Genius Rehabilitation Center, a Division of MHE

In article <1992Nov10.225916.25749@ncsu.edu> jecoleb@eos.ncsu.edu writes:

>adc@tardis.cl.msu.edu (Alan D. Cabrera) spooges:
>>rec.games.netrek.d
>>Discussion about netrek which does not fall into any of the other 
>>netrek groups' categories. No articles should be cross-posted to 
>>r.g.n.d and any of those other groups.

>Or the Wrath of Alan will overtake thee and spank thee with a ruler.
>By the way, what's to stop people from using rec.games.netrek.d as 
>rec.games.netrek was used, and just posting everything there 

Whoa...I didn't see that bit about "No articles should be cross-posted"
  the first time around. Where do you come from Alan?
You know, I read the rec.arts.startrek.* groups, and believe me, there
  are some times when cross-posting is appropriate.

	-KreelScum/KnightRaven

==============================================================================
  Mr. Heiji Horde   (Unix Systems Programmer, Reed College)   horde@reed.edu
     All insane acts are done in affiliation with Madd Hacker Enterprises
            "Everything I say and do is being recorded by the FBI."
Newsgroups: news.groups,rec.music.synth
From: igb@fulcrum.co.uk (Ian G Batten)
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Organization: Fulcrum Communications
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 09:16:15 GMT

In article <1992Nov5.211256.352@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov writes:
> There are people out there who cannot vote due to the fact that the BBS
> that they echo the group on has no email facilities. Is the vote really
> open to anyone out there? How do THEY vote? 

ALL votes ever held are invalid by this argument.

ian
From: sbog6936@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Bin Ong)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: soc.culture.singaporean
Keywords: Singapore, cultural, newsgroup
Date: 11 Nov 92 16:00:27 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana

escmar@ntu.ac.sg (Mar Siew Cheong) writes:

>Proposed Newsgroup's Name
>=========================
>  soc.culture.singaporean

>Type
>====
>  Unmoderated

>Charter
>=======
>  A newsgroup where topics relevant to the development of Singapore, in
>  the areas of science, technology, education and culture can be 
>  discussed.

>Purpose of the Group 
>====================
>  *  Discuss topics relevant to the development of Singapore.
>  *  Provide an avenue where general information about Singapore
>     can be obtained.

>Newsgroup Creation
>==================
>  The discussion for this group will last from Monday, Nov. 9, 1992
>  until Friday, Dec. 4, 1992. The discussion should take place in 
>  news.groups. All followups should be under this same title heading.

>  I am now inviting all netters in general and Singaporean netters in
>  particular to take part in the discussion. Any suggestions, comments
>  or problems may be included in the discussion or sent directly to
>  escmar@ntuix.ntu.ac.sg

>  At the end of the Discussion Period, voting will be held. The rules on
>  how to vote will be posted here as well.

>Thanks for your attention,
>-- 
>Mar Siew Cheong (staff)		Bitnet: escmar@ntuvax.ntu.ac.sg
>Division of Instr. & Control	Internet: escmar@ntuix.ntu.ac.sg 
>Nanyang Technological Univ. 	Tel. (off.): (065) 799-5635
>Nanyang Avenue S2263, Singapore

I think the creation of a specific group for Singapore is unwarranted at 
this moment. First, present access to the net is limited to an elite few,
students and staff at colleges, or those who knew about the group and
are now working. The govt had done enough to create a socioeconomic
elite, ie the graduates; I think it wouldn't be fair for us to create
a technological elite.
Secondly, although a focused discussion is healthy, it is also important
to have diverse input. True, perspectives of Singaporeans who are or had
been abroad is different. Yet, we are also bound (subconsciously) by
our cultural and socioeconomic values. Currently, the S.C.A. draws a
varied and diverse audience, and I personally find that stimulating.
And finally, how about action? Sure we could talk about all the world
under the sun. But comes down to it, what shall we do after all is
said and done?
If there is something to be discussed, I think the S.C.A. is fine as
is right now. There is a wide audience, and certainly, it has done
fine.


Bin Ong
Univ of Illinois
From: gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Date: 12 Nov 92 00:13:55 GMT
Reply-To: gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen)
Organization: Metrosoft

In article <1992Nov10.212940.24971@daimi.aau.dk> rorschak@daimi.aau.dk  
(Jesper Lauridsen) writes:
> gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen) writes:
> 
> >In article <BxE3sC.M0z@unix.amherst.edu> twpierce@unix.amherst.edu (Tim  
> >Pierce) writes:
> >> In article <1992Nov6.214300.3100@metrosoft.com> gvh@metrosoft.com  
> >(Gordon Van Huizen) writes:
> >> 
> >> >In article <BxACry.BI2@unix.amherst.edu> twpierce@unix.amherst.edu  
(Tim  
> >> >Pierce) writes:
> >> >
> >> >> The very fact that the CFV was crossposted to rec.music.synth was  
by
> >> >> definition an indication that that group was involved.
> >> >> 
> >> >Evidence to the contrary has been posted.
> >> 
> >> Oh, *really*?  I eagerly await to hear all about it.
> >> 
> 
> >If you're actively following this thread I'm certain you must have  
already  
> >read it. Or did you happen to miss it? Naw THAT cou'dn't happen, we've  
> >already read how you don't miss a thing.
> 
> The headers of the RFDs and CFVs have been posted several times. It's 
> obvoius from those that they were crossposted to rec.music.synth. What
> is your "evidence to the contrary"? 

One more time. There is evidence to the contrary of your statement that  
the fact that it was posted there means that the group was involved. I  
don't believe I have ever stated that the cross-posts were not made. 

This was asked and answered days ago.
-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------
Gordon Van Huizen           vox: 619.488.9411  fax: 619.488.3045
Metrosoft                   gvh@metrosoft.com [NeXTmail welcome]
----------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes)
Subject: Re: RFD: Should rec.music.makers.synth stand as a group name?
Reply-To: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov
Organization: Jet Propulsion Lab - Pasadena, CA
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 07:14:36 GMT

ljnelson@unix.amherst.edu (Laird Nelson) writes:
>> As a clearly biased member of this discussion, I am asking for a volunteer
>> neutral vote taker to run the vote. It would be impossible for me to run
>> it as it stands now. 
>Were it to pass, would you honor it?  I think not.

Whatever the outcome of this vote I would indeed honor it. 
-- 
Dave Hayes - Network & Communications Engineering - JPL / NASA - Pasadena CA
dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov       dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov         ...usc!elroy!dxh

Wisdom (n.) - 1. Something you can learn without knowing it.
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes)
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Reply-To: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov
Organization: Jet Propulsion Lab - Pasadena, CA
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 21:25:00 GMT

cathyf@is.rice.edu (Catherine Anne Foulston) writes:
>Well, let's suppose for a moment the subject line had been something
>that attracted the attention of all rec.music.synth readers who saw
>it, and they all voted.

If that had been the case, the rename would have never passed. 

>what you do.  Even if all rec.music.synth readers voted, which would
>probably never happen, that would not be the will of the entire
>readership.

Not of USENET, but at least of the people affected by the change.

>2) Something other than the will of the entire readership.  How do you
>want to do it then?  The current system?  You seem to have problems
>with it.  Something else?

The system definately needs changing. I'm working on it, believe me. 

>I'm not trying to flame you or anything in this article.  You clearly
>have problems with the current process and I am just curious how you
>think votes should be done.

It's not so much votes, but you'd think that people would allow for 
some flexibility in these kinds of decisions. A lot of it is 
the attitude of news admins about the voting process. 

A lot of people dropped away from r.m.s when they heard about the name 
change...they aren't big flamers or posters like me (and I'm not so big)...
but they really didn't like the fact that some non-participants got to 
decide where they continued their discussion so they cut themselves off
from it all. Is that what the net wants to happen?

A lot of people said "I mailed my vote in but it wasn't counted". 
Most news.admins say "Tough". Is that what the net wants to happen?

It's not just a small collection of computers exchanging articles
anymore. It's a whole village of people. If we keep alienating those
who are ignorant or meek, what are we becoming?
-- 
Dave Hayes - Network & Communications Engineering - JPL / NASA - Pasadena CA
dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov       dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov         ...usc!elroy!dxh

The most important service rendered by the press is that of educating people to
approach printed matter with distrust. 
Newsgroups: uk.net,news.groups,soc.culture.british
From: streater@unixjr.SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Tim Streater)
Subject: Re: RFD: Should UK groups be sent to UUnet?
Organization: Stanford Linear Accelerator Center
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 05:12:54 GMT

In article <1992Nov10.151340.7885@pixel.kodak.com> dj@ekcolor.ssd.kodak.com (Dave Jones) writes:
>
>Stick to the status quo.  Remember, Yadallee awaits those who broadcast
>rashly!
> 
I would be quite interested to see uk.politics, also uk.jobs (or is this a
null set? he asked wittily). Are you really that bothered about Mr. Yadallee?
Remember much earlier in the year we saw off much worse: Termite!

Sn.
From: starfish@stein.u.washington.edu (Sarah Skovronsky)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: comp.society.folklore unmoderation
Date: 9 Nov 92 17:54:23 GMT
Article-I.D.: u.1992Nov9.175423.26770
Organization: University of Washington

dave@frackit.UUCP (Dave Ratcliffe) writes:

[discussion that has been answered by other posts deleted]

>> The alt.folklore.* hierarchy is alive and well. 

>A debatable diagnosis. Alive, certainly. Well? Hmmmmmmm....

Thank you for your extreme concern, but perhaps it would make more sense
for the CURRENT readers of the alt.folklore.* groups to decide whether or
not their groups need "help," or need a "promotion."  Aside from the fact
(reasons given in other messages) that there is no need to move the group,
I think a lot of the opposition to the move is because the idea was from
some "whiny outsiders" who can't read the group and thus know little of
the "personality," or what have you, of the group.  The current readership
of the af groups doesn't appreciate being told what to do and how to do it
by someone who just wants a little piece of the action himself. 

>> "Promote" is a bad choice of word. 

>Maybe in your world. ANYTHING outside of the alt.* hierarchy is a promotion.

As above:  Thanks, but no thanks.

-- 
************************************************************************
*            Sarah Skovronsky     starfish@u.washington.edu            *
* "Sample my FIST, you community theater reject!"  --TV's Frank, MST3K *
**********fnord!********furrfu!********hi-keeba!********meep!***********
From: rsk@gynko.circ.upenn.edu (Rich Kulawiec)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: rec.music.makers.*: chronology and comments from the vote-taker.
Date: 9 Nov 92 02:18:20 GMT
Organization: GSP Whitewater Slalom Racing Team

In article <1992Nov8.221114.5147@metrosoft.com> gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen) writes:
>In article <96646@netnews.upenn.edu> rsk@gynko.circ.upenn.edu (Rich  
>Kulawiec) writes:
>> I should also point out that I received no correspondence from anyone
>> objecting to the "Subject" line while the vote was taking place.
>
>That's because most people affected didn't know it was taking place.  
>(Circular argument).

I'm not prepared to conclude that that's the reason that I didn't
receive any correspondence on the matter, because I don't have any
evidence for it.  (Other explanations are possible: apathy, agreement
with the actual subject line, mail failures, and so on.)  I just stated
the observation as I made it.  I will augment that observation by
pointing out that at least one of the people who has made numerous
objections to the "Subject" line after the conclusion of the vote was
aware of it at least two weeks before the end of the vote (I know this
because he submitted a vote at that time).

---Rsk
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: chip@tct.com (Chip Salzenberg)
Subject: Re: Music Group Reorg Disagreement (was Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored)
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 20:36:30 GMT
Organization: TC Telemanagement, Clearwater, FL

According to gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen):
>In article <2B018780.5A49@tct.com> chip@tct.com (Chip Salzenberg) writes:
>> There _is_ some (very low) minimum level of knowledge required
>> to participate in the newsgroup creation process.
>
>The hurdle is a little high, IMO. To you it isn't because you live and  
>breathe this stuff.

Well, then, I guess I just expect a little more.  So be it.

>> If people _don't_ know things, then that's _their_ fault, not mine.
>
>Couldn't you spend *some* of your time making it easier for those people  
>instead of alienating them?

What nerve.  Why do you think I took the time to write "What Is Usenet?"
-- 
Chip Salzenberg at Teltronics/TCT  <chip@tct.com>, <73717.366@compuserve.com>
                 just another elitist Usenet administrator
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: short@asf.com (Lee Short)
Subject: Re: My experience
Summary: try a mailing list
Organization: Hughes ASF
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 16:58:21 GMT

In article <BxHoGz.4p0@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu> cbnorman@cayley.uwaterloo.ca () writes:
>
>Despite all the statements I have heard saying that UseNet and FidoNet are
>nothing alike...that's a bunch of bullshit.  The mechanics of UseNet are
>different, the organization of UseNet is differerent, the look of UseNet
>is different, but the *readers* are the same.  The discussions going on in
>rec.games.frp.* are no more intelligent, or moronic, or focussed, or 
>unfocussed, than those going on in the Fido RPG echos.  

No one ever said that there were *no* similarities between FidoNet and
Usenet.  What they have said, and you have steadfastly refused to
understand, is that there is at least one significant difference:
size.  Because you don't understand this difference, you fail to see
how much of a waste of net resources your proposed newsgroup would be.

And the telling blow against your proposal is that there is a perfect
vehicle for what you want to accomplish, but you just don't have
enough net experience to know it.  That vehicle is the mailing list.
I would strongly suggest that you read news.lists until the monthly
postings on mailing lists comes up, read it, and consider setting up a
mailing list.


Lee
-- 
short@asf.com              The mystery of government is not how Washington
Lee Short                  works, but how to make it stop.  -- P.J. O'Rourke
Software Janitor        I speak for none of the many steps in the food chain
Hughes Training, Inc.         between myself and General Motors corporation.