HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: news@wolves.Durham.NC.US (The Wolfe of the Den)
Newsgroups: news.admin.policy
Subject: Kill File stupidity? (was: Jim Bowery's offensive posting
Date: 16 Dec 92 02:41:49 GMT
Followup-To: news.admin.policy
Organization: Wolves Den UNIX
X-Md4-Signature: ce5cdd8a8ff4972fe80a5971a2a307bc

In <1992Dec14.131003.8145@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov writes:
>jgd@dixie.com (John De Armond) writes:
>>Carl's appointed himself world-wide guardian of politically correct free
>>speech.  Best way to handle it is to simply put him in your kill file.
>
>Hmmm....looks like more ELITISM (post only what we think you should post)
>from news admins. Way to go Mr De Armond.

Dave:
	Are you seriously proposing that a person who is reading news
does NOT have the right to be selective about what they read?

	Are you serious in proposing that a person receiving news has to
read all 40+ megabytes of message traffic that passes by each day?

	Are *you* reading every message that is generated by every
person anywhere on the net that comes through your site every day?

	Oh?  You don't subscribe to every newsgroup on the machine?
Pray tell, how is not subscribing to a newsgroup different from dropping
a topic or other filtering command into a kill file?

	Your consistency is absolutely amazing.      NOT!  

-- 
Usenet Net News Administrator @ The Wolves Den  (G. Wolfe Woodbury)
news@wolves.durham.nc.us  news%wolves@cs.duke.edu  ...duke!wolves!news
"The flame war is a specific Usenet art form." --me
[This site is not affiliated with Duke University. (Idiots!) ]
Newsgroups: news.admin.policy
From: kadie@cs.uiuc.edu (Carl M. Kadie)
Subject: Re: Jim Bowery's offensive posting
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept. of Comp. Sci., Urbana, IL
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 05:03:32 GMT

In article <Bz7AoC.HAJ@cs.uiuc.edu> kadie@cs.uiuc.edu (Carl M. Kadie) writes:

>CAF-News has had several articles about how much news admin should
>enforce the charters of unmoderated newsgroup. I'm enclosing
>references to those articles.

stanley@skyking.OCE.ORST.EDU (John Stanley) writes:

>Who is CAF-News, and who put them in a position of authority over all
>news admins? I.e., who cares what CAF-News thinks news admins should be
>doing?

CAF-News is just newsgroup alt.comp.acad-freedom.news. It neither has,
nor claims, authority over any news admins. Its articles, like the
articles in news.admin.policy, are just the opinion of their authors.

- Carl

ANNOTATED REFERENCES

(All these documents are available on-line. Access information follows.)

=================
caf
=================
* About the CAF mailing lists (and newsgroups)

A description of the comp-academic-freedom-talk mailing list. It is a
free-forum for the discussion of questions such as: How should general
principles of academic freedom (such as freedom of expression, freedom
to read, due process, and privacy) be applied to university computers
and networks? How are these principles actually being applied? How can
the principles of academic freedom as applied to computers and
networks be defended?

=================
=================

If you have gopher, you can browse the CAF archive with the command
   gopher gopher.eff.org

These document(s) are also available by anonymous ftp (the preferred
method) and by email. To get the file(s) via ftp, do an anonymous ftp
to ftp.eff.org (192.88.144.4), and get file(s):

  pub/academic/caf

To get the file(s) by email, send email to archive-server@eff.org.
Include the line(s) (be sure to include the space before the file
name):

send acad-freedom caf
-- 
Carl Kadie -- I do not represent any organization; this is just me.
 = kadie@cs.uiuc.edu =
Newsgroups: news.admin.policy,news.groups
From: durrell@pinball.arcade.uiowa.edu (Bryant Durrell)
Subject: Re: Folklore, synth, and guidelines
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 02:36:32 GMT
Organization: University of Iowa

In article <1992Dec14.214523.12455@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov writes:
>I'm not assuming anything about IQ. I'm simply pointing out that they didn't
>know that the synth-L list would drop away because of this.

Ah!  Light dawns!

So, Dave, as part of your proposal to "make things clearer" you feel
that it should have been mentioned that the synth-l list would drop
away if the vote passed?

How exactly did you expect the vote-takers to know this?  Did the
owner notify them?  Did *anyone* know?

Anyways, add this to the list -- all proposals *must* include every
possible effect of the change proposed.  All of 'em.  And if 
anything happens that you didn't include as a possibility, you 
gotta go back and redo the vote.

-- 
Bryant Durrell					   durrell@chop.isca.uiowa.edu
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                 I feed on the flesh of the living, and I vote.
From: karish@pangea.Stanford.EDU (Chuck Karish)
Newsgroups: news.admin.policy
Subject: Re: Folklore, synth, and guidelines
Date: 14 Dec 1992 21:29:34 GMT
Organization: Mindcraft, Inc.
NNTP-Posting-Host: pangea.stanford.edu

In article <1992Dec13.090624.3957@sq.sq.com> msb@sq.sq.com (Mark Brader) writes:
>I realize these are rhetorical questions, but as the poster of the
>proposal in question I'd like to point out that I also posted a
>separate article as a pointer to it, with a Subject line that *did*
>mention the group whose effective renaming was proposed.  So the
>parallel with, uh, a certain earlier situation is imperfect at best.

I disagree.  This is exactly how the system is supposed to
work:  the CFV posting is an official announcement, and
people who read it are welcome to expand on its
implications for the benefit of other readers of the
affected group(s).

In fact, Dave Hayes did notice the CFV he's been
complaining about, but did not post an article to warn
other readers of rec.music.synth that some changes might be
in store.
--

    Chuck Karish          karish@mindcraft.com
    (415) 323-9000 x117   karish@pangea.stanford.edu
From: michael@afterlife.ncsc.mil (Michael of Nebadon)
Newsgroups: news.admin.policy
Subject: Meanwhile, back at news.admin.policy (Was Re: That "Hitler" was an amateur)
Date: 15 Dec 92 17:24:14 GMT
Organization: The Great Beyond

In article <9212142237@zuma.UUCP> sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic) writes:
>In article <8107@lib.tmc.edu> jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard) write\
s:
>>And another thing: Is there anyone else out there who finds Carl's
>>practice of including voluminous references in _every_ article he
>>posts as annoying as Hasan B Mutlu/Serdar Argic's similar practice?

Not having experienced the "Hasan B Mutlu/Serdar Argic" practice
before, I couldn't comment. I can now say that I _do_not_ find
Carl's practice of including "voluminous references" as annoying as
Serdar Argic's "similar" practice.

>I think that a succinct article containing useful timely information
>merits posting to the newsgroups. Perhaps it's too much to hope that
>you will open your mind to Muslim people's sufferings, but it's worth
>pointing out.

[ ... ]

If Serdar Argic's idea of a succinct article is a 200+ line submission
crossposted to six groups, I count myself lucky that we hang around
different parts of the Usenet. I can only hope this wasn't a
representative example of what he normally posts. He even seems to be a
subscriber to the how-to-win-friends-through-inflammatory-subject-lines
school of thought. On, well...

For the record, I don't really have a problem with Carl's posts. If
you don't want to read the references you can just move onto the next
post. It _is_ a little jarring to be following a discussion and suddenly
a post appears which doesn't really participate in the discussion. The
fact that it may provide background for the discussion (and, hopefully,
will help the discussion to build on what has already been discussed
rather than rehash old arguments) makes up for the jarring, IMHO.
Maybe Carl could work on his segue-ways into the references to make
then smoother. ;-)

Anyway, as long as your newsreader supports kill files, Carl's posts
shouldn't be any problem to you (as long as no one replies to them
anyway ;-) ), so let's put this one to bed, okay?

michael@afterlife.ncsc.mil
From: hartman@ulogic.UUCP (Richard M. Hartman)
Newsgroups: news.admin.policy
Subject: Re: Folklore, synth, and guidelines
Date: 17 Dec 92 18:49:18 GMT
Organization: negligable

In article <1giubuINN3jk@morrow.stanford.edu> karish@pangea.Stanford.EDU (Chuck Karish) writes:
>
>In fact, Dave Hayes did notice the CFV he's been
>complaining about, but did not post an article to warn
>other readers of rec.music.synth that some changes might be
>in store.

And yet, someone else DID, so even Dave's negligence doesn't
really affect the outcome.


		-Richard Hartman
		hartman@ulogic.COM

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
"Badges?  I don' got to show you no stinkin' badges!"

Newsgroups: news.admin.policy
From: ckd@eff.org (Christopher Davis)
Subject: Re: Folklore, synth, and guidelines
Organization: Electronic Frontier Foundation Tech Central
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 19:53:19 GMT

DH> == Dave Hayes <dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov>

 DH> What's wrong with trying to equalize the awareness levels of the 
 DH> other "ignorant and therefore vulnerable" newsgroups? Or to fight
 DH> for their sake?

Nothing, except that you didn't do it when you had a chance (before and
during the vote).  You assumed that it wasn't necessary, and you were
wrong, and now you're trying to undo the vote instead.

Maybe I should have complained louder about the manga vote.  Maybe I should
have screamed and screamed when rec.music.phish came up.  I didn't, they
passed, that's life.  Or at least USENET.
--
Christopher K. Davis      | ``Usenet seems to run much like the Kif (or,
<ckd@eff.org>   EFF #14   |   for the TV generation, Klingon) high command.
System Administrator, EFF |   Whoever takes action and can be heard wins.''
+1 617 864 0665  [CKD1]   |   --Peter da Silva <peter@ferranti.com>
Newsgroups: news.admin.policy
From: joemays@bsu-cs.bsu.edu (Joseph F. Mays)
Newsgroups: news.admin.policy,alt.censorship,alt.comp.acad-freedom.talk
Subject: Re: Jim Bowery's offensive posting
Date: 14 Dec 92 21:00:45 GMT
Organization: Dept. of CS Ball State University Muncie IN

In article <Bz979o.588@cs.uiuc.edu> kadie@cs.uiuc.edu (Carl M. Kadie) writes:

>I am happy to report that I do not favor for "completely unrestricted
>free speech."

You don't/aren't?  What restrictions would you place on free speech?  Why
are you happy to report this?

Joe


Newsgroups: news.admin.policy
From: jbotz@mtholyoke.edu (Jurgen Botz)
Subject: Re: Jim Bowery's offensive posting
Organization: Mount Holyoke College
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 18:01:15 GMT

In article <8107@lib.tmc.edu> jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard) writes:
>And another thing: Is there anyone else out there who finds Carl's practice of
>including voluminous references in _every_ article he posts as annoying as
>Hasan B Mutlu/Serdar Argic's similar practice?

Not me.  I find them useful... and if you don't, you don't have to read
them.  However, one thing I do find annoying is people who keep attacking
Carl simply for the oppinions he holds and his practice of presenting them
reasonably and with solid documentation supporting his position.  People
like that /really/ annoy me... 

--
Jurgen Botz                  |   Internet: JBotz@mtholyoke.edu
Academic Systems Consultant  |     Bitnet: JBotz@mhc.bitnet
Mount Holyoke College        |      Voice: (US) 413-538-2375 (daytime)
South Hadley, MA, USA        | Snail Mail: J. Botz, 01075-0629
Newsgroups: news.admin.policy,news.groups
From: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes)
Subject: Re: Folklore, synth, and guidelines
Reply-To: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov
Organization: Jet Propulsion Lab - Pasadena, CA
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 21:45:23 GMT

jfurr@nyx.cs.du.edu (JKF) writes:
>>Hey...choose your names carefully! Try "innocent novices unaware of what a
>>name change can do" instead of "clueless idiots"...unless that was a freudian
>>slip of the fingers of course. (Betraying your real feelings?)
>No, my real feelings on this issue are that this is one of the most
>pathetic examples of making a mountain out of a molehill that I've ever
>seen.  You're assuming that the average rec.music.synth reader had an IQ
>about that of the common woodchuck (no flames from rec.humor.oracle.d
>people, please),

I'm not assuming anything about IQ. I'm simply pointing out that they didn't
know that the synth-L list would drop away because of this.

>and that it truly makes a difference whether we stick the
>word "makers" in there or not.  

If it were truly a transparent change, I wouldn't care eather. Synth readers
are learning the hard way about USENET. That's just as pointless as arguing
about the name.

>>guidelines or newbie docs or anything. This is a REAL BIG CLUE that people
>>in that group are uncommonly aware of USENET politics...unlike 80% of the 
>>groups out there now. 
>>Which proves my points about elitism exactly...or let me use a better word...
>>FAVORITISM. Think about it. 
>I did think about it, Dave.  I think you're right, too.  Elvis _is_ alive
>in Paraguay training commandos to storm the Bastille and free Napoleon.

Cute. Dodge the concept and then the issue. Fair enough.

>Let the issue drop.  Please.

Why? 
-- 
Dave Hayes - Network & Communications Engineering - JPL / NASA - Pasadena CA
dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov       dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov         ...usc!elroy!dxh

Do not take life too seriously; you will never get out if it alive.
Newsgroups: news.admin.policy
From: jaapjl@tab00.larc.nasa.gov (J Lee Jaap)
Newsgroups: news.admin.policy
Subject: Re: Folklore, synth, and guidelines
Date: 14 Dec 1992 15:48:56 GMT
Organization: AS&M Inc
Reply-To: J Lee Jaap <J.L.Jaap@larc.nasa.gov>
NNTP-Posting-Host: cmb00.larc.nasa.gov
In-reply-to: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov's message of Mon, 14 Dec 1992 12:57:56 GMT

In article <1992Dec14.125756.7888@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes) writes:

   What's wrong with trying to equalize the awareness levels of the 
   other "ignorant and therefore vulnerable" newsgroups? Or to fight
   for their sake?

Well, do it.  Talk is so much hot air.
--
J Lee Jaap <J.L.Jaap@LaRC.NASA.Gov> +1 804/864-2148
    employed by, not speaking for, AS&M Inc, at
         NASA LaRC, Hampton VA 23681-0001
Newsgroups: news.admin.policy
From: jgd@dixie.com (John De Armond)
Subject: Re: Jim Bowery's offensive posting
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 92 05:28:40 GMT
Organization: Dixie Communications Public Access.  The Mouth of the South.

stanley@skyking.OCE.ORST.EDU (John Stanley) writes:

>In article <Bz7AoC.HAJ@cs.uiuc.edu> kadie@cs.uiuc.edu (Carl M. Kadie) writes:
>>CAF-News has had several articles about how much news admin should
>>enforce the charters of unmoderated newsgroup. I'm enclosing
>>references to those articles.

>Who is CAF-News, and who put them in a position of authority over all
>news admins? I.e., who cares what CAF-News thinks news admins should be
>doing?

Carl's appointed himself world-wide guardian of politically correct free
speech.  Best way to handle it is to simply put him in your kill file.

John
-- 
John De Armond, WD4OQC               |Interested in high performance mobility?  
Performance Engineering Magazine(TM) | Interested in high tech and computers? 
Marietta, Ga                         | Send ur snail-mail address to 
jgd@dixie.com                        | perform@dixie.com for a free sample mag
Need Usenet public Access in Atlanta?  Write Me for info on Dixie.com.
Newsgroups: news.admin.policy
From: emcguire@intellection.com (Ed McGuire)
Subject: Re: Newsgroup creation guidelines (was Re: Folklore, synth, and guidelines)
Organization: Intellection, Inc.
	<JAAPJL.92Dec14104856@cmb00.larc.nasa.gov>
	<1992Dec15.200011.18509@watson.ibm.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 15:45:11 GMT

In article <1992Dec15.200011.18509@watson.ibm.com> strom@Watson.Ibm.Com (Rob Strom) writes:

   Multiple changes should only be placed on a single ballot if no
   more than a single existing group or hierarchy of groups is
   directly affected by the change.  A group is directly affected by
   the change if a successful "yes" vote would change the name or the
   charter of that group.

   The RFDs and CFVs for name changes and reorganizations should
   be clearly labelled in the Subject line with the acronym RFD
   or CFD and the name of the newsgroup or newsgroup hierarchy
   which would be directly affected by the proposed change.

This second paragraph is fine.  However, multiple ballots created by
the first paragraph would needlessly complicate multiple hierarchy
renames, especially in the case where some renames are only meaningful
when others are successful.  I would suggest duplicate posts of the
same ballot with different subject lines in each affected hierarchy.
This solves the problem and allows for clear Subject: lines.

   As a reader of news, you should be alert to RFD or CFV
   messages which mention newsgroups or newsgroup hierarchies
   which you read.  If the reorganization votes pass, these
   groups may get new names.   There will be a transition period
   when some articles will appear in the old newsgroup and others
   in the new newsgroup, since some site administrators will not
   merge or alias the old and new newsgroups. 

This is a good suggestion, but readers depend purely on the actual
ballot for instructions.  If they read a document on how to
participate in voting, fine; but as an addition to the guidelines as
you suggest, this will be an ineffective warning.  However, most of
the paragraph legitimately belongs in the ballot document.  What about
including a sample ballot as an appendix to the guidelines with this
text included?
-- 
Ed McGuire                   1603 LBJ Freeway, Suite 780
Systems Administrator/       Dallas, Texas 75234
 Member of Technical Staff   214/620-2100, FAX 214/484-8110
Intellection, Inc.           <ed@intellection.com>
Newsgroups: news.admin.policy
From: chip@tct.com (Chip Salzenberg)
Subject: Re: Newsgroup creation guidelines (was Re: Folklore, synth, and guidelines)
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 19:16:23 GMT
Organization: TC Telemanagement, Clearwater, FL

According to strom@Watson.Ibm.Com (Rob Strom):
>The published guidelines on Subject lines imply that people reading
>news have a limited amount of time, and are justified in skipping
>over articles whose subject lines don't indicate relevance.

Your use of the word "guidelines" is misleading.  In this discussion,
"guidelines" refers specifically to the guidelines for newsgroup
creation and renaming, also known as "How To Create a New Newsgroup."

In future, please refer to articles by their names.

The below quote is not from _the_ guidelines.

>These guidelines say:
>
>  The subject line of an article is there to enable a person with a limited
>  amount of time to decide whether or not to read your article.

Yes, that's why the Subject line exists.  But it can't always achieve
its worthy purpose, because there's no one criterion for a person's
wanting to read a given article.  In other words, what's important to
me about an article won't necessarily be important to you.

In brief: Specific requirements for subject lines may help the
situation, but they won't cure it.

>Multiple changes should only be placed on a single ballot if no more
>than a single existing group or hierarchy of groups is directly
>affected by the change.

Okay by me.

>The RFDs and CFVs for name changes and reorganizations should
>be clearly labelled in the Subject line with the acronym RFD
>or CFD and the name of the newsgroup or newsgroup hierarchy
>which would be directly affected by the proposed change.
>
>For example:  Subject: RFD: rec.ham-radio.* reorganization

Sure.  That's how I labelled the first comp.unix.* reorganization,
except I spelled out "CALL FOR DISCUSSION" and "CALL FOR VOTES".  And
yet there were _still_ people claiming not to have known about the
vote, and whining about its results.

Conclusion, once again: Specific requirements for subject lines may
help the situation, but they won't cure it.
-- 
Chip Salzenberg at Teltronics/TCT  <chip@tct.com>, <73717.366@compuserve.com>
  "you make me want to break the laws of time and space / you make me
   want to eat pork / you make me want to staple bagles to my face /
   and remove them with a pitchfork" -- Weird Al Yankovic, "You Make Me"
Newsgroups: news.admin.policy
From: chip@tct.com (Chip Salzenberg)
Subject: Re: Folklore, synth, and guidelines
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 14:12:35 GMT
Organization: TC Telemanagement, Clearwater, FL

According to msb@sq.sq.com (Mark Brader):
>I also posted a separate article as a pointer to it, with a Subject
>line that *did* mention the group whose effective renaming was
>proposed.

Well, somebody did the same thing with the synth vote, too.  Just
because the _proposer_ failed to post such an article doesn't mean
that the r.m.s readership wasn't warned.

Let me echo Joel's comments: Thanks, Cathy, for a wonderful analysis.
-- 
Chip Salzenberg at Teltronics/TCT  <chip@tct.com>, <73717.366@compuserve.com>
  "you make me want to break the laws of time and space / you make me
   want to eat pork / you make me want to staple bagles to my face /
   and remove them with a pitchfork" -- Weird Al Yankovic, "You Make Me"
From: jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard)
Newsgroups: news.admin.policy
Subject: Re: Jim Bowery's offensive posting
Date: 14 Dec 1992 10:53:52 GMT
Organization: UT Health Science Center Houston

In article <Bz8Gpw.D3B@cs.uiuc.edu> kadie@cs.uiuc.edu (Carl M. Kadie) writes:
>stanley@skyking.OCE.ORST.EDU (John Stanley) writes:
>>Who is CAF-News, and who put them in a position of authority over all
>>news admins? I.e., who cares what CAF-News thinks news admins should be
>>doing?
>CAF-News is just newsgroup alt.comp.acad-freedom.news. It neither has,
>nor claims, authority over any news admins. Its articles, like the
>articles in news.admin.policy, are just the opinion of their authors.

Much as I hate to admit it, John has a point. ("There is no idea so good you
cannot find a fool supporting it." -- Larry Niven) Carl, the site in question
is _not_ an academic site, and so academic freedom does not apply. Further,
your position in favor of completely unrestrictred free speech is not
representative of anything outside the academic community, and is
controversial even there. Who appointed you guardian of academic freedom,
anyway?

>ANNOTATED REFERENCES

And another thing: Is there anyone else out there who finds Carl's practice of
including voluminous references in _every_ article he posts as annoying as
Hasan B Mutlu/Serdar Argic's similar practice?
-- 
Jay Maynard, EMT-P, K5ZC, PP-ASEL | Never ascribe to malice that which can
jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu      | adequately be explained by stupidity.
  "All [Windows] NT has is a lot of journalists fooled." -- Brian Button
Newsgroups: news.admin.policy