From: Charles Scheiner <cscheiner@igc.apc.org>
Newsgroups: alt.culture.indonesia
Date: 18 Nov 92 21:15 PST
Subject: Re: Personal views on East Timor
Nf-ID: #R:80v11mb@rpi.edu:-1792615285:cdp:1741100005:000:11060
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!cscheiner    Nov 18 21:15:00 1992


This is a reply by Jose' BASTO (jb00@lehigh.edu) who doesn't have access
to this newsgroup.  Please reply to him by email.
-- Charlie Scheiner

>Reply to item written  1:04 pm  Nov 16, 1992 by andrean@cs.utexas.edu
>/* ---------- "Personal views on East Timor" ---------- */
... deleted

>What has been considered insults were :
>       - calling the government a facist regime
                                   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I never did that: you probably mis-read my posting about the fascist dictator
that ruled Portugal for 48 years (ending in 1974), and has the responsibility
of not having implemented a solid, peaceful decolonization of the Portuguese
colonies (in Africa, India, China and South-East Asia)

>       - calling the government Suharto's regime

Can you explain to me better why he did take power by a military coup, killing
thousands of people in the process, and still keeps 100 places for the
military in your Parliament... As far the news I got, he still is in power.

>       - calling the government dictatorial and oppressive

Do you want to call the Indonesian regime a democracy? A fair regime for its
population (no corruption and elite ruling)? Free press? No excessive use of
force by the government against peaceful opposition?

>These are all untrue to your average Indonesian. (again my opinion only)

I can tell you that your opinion does not coincide with many Indonesians I met
(they are a little afraid of speaking, because they love their country as much
as you do, and they want to return ... without having their names on the
blacklist of your "free" regime Secret Service...

>It sounds highly
>exaggerated simply because we feel we do not live in that kind of
>terror and chaos. In fact, I assume that most posters here have
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

If you behave like you are expected to behave from the regime, you don't have
to be afraid of nothing... and ABRI is everywhere to make sure that chaos will
never happen (as in Dili last year 12 November: is a peaceful demonstration
your demonstration of chaos?)

>a better economic status, which only suggests that we live quite
>happily, and do not feel that the government is facist, dictatorial
>and even opressive. In fact, most of us agree that the government
>has made it possible significant progress on how we live.

I hope you can use your stay in another country to open your eyes to the
world, and try to see that you can not compromise higher values for economic
benefit of a very few... You and me, being studying abroad, we can look to our
countrys from a different stand-point, please use this opportunity to look at
the issues from an intellectual basis, forgetting for a moment the nationalist
mind build by our countrys in our brains, since we are kids...

>What you refer to as such horrible characteristics of the government
>simply does not apply to most of Indonesia.
>All of the achievements of your so-called 'Suharto's Regime'
>is all forgotten just to pinpoint an unfortunate tragedy that
>happened in ET last year. You want to throw away 25 years
>of hard work just for 1 lousy mistake.

Excuse me, it was not <<just 1 lousy mistake>>. There are 17 FULL YEARS OF
LOUSY MISTAKES in cause here (since the invasion of E. Timor, and I don't
want to dig out other episodes on your recent History, because that is not
the issue).

Do you hosnestlly think that your government would did anything about the 12
Nov massacre, if not <<1 lousy mistake>> from Indonesian Security Forces
letting escape to outside the a video cassette  smuggled out by a very smart
British reporter?

The first reactions was of denial, trying to downsize the tragedy, and only
after the video had being broadcasted world-wide" did the Indonesian regime
feel pressed to do something (a puppet inquire, with 0 credebillity, and a
few months of jail for minor soldiers...

Please let me remind that your "fair" regime did condemn to a life sentence a
peaceful protestor, and several other E. Timorese students to 10 - 15 years
of prison, just for demonstrating ... If you can understand this "justice"
system, please do so, because it surpasses my capacities...

>Our view (my opinion only) is that the government is not in any
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I don't understand the "our view". Please explain.

>way :
>       1. Dictatorial
>       2. Facist
>       3. Oppressive
>       4. Imperialist
>       5. Communist
>       6. Non-democratic
>So *please* stop calling the Indonesian government those things, and stop
>degrading our government all the time.

I think the facts speak for themselves, please find the meaning of each of the
words you listed above (some I never used, but if you think they apply ...)
and compare with an independent source of the recent History of the Republic of

Indonesia. I do not started "name calling", I did just apply the adjectives I
found most convenient to describe the actions of your government (what they
do, not what they say ...).

I did try to get participation of your government, and I did receive some
material from Indonesia Embassy when I did invite then to be present in a
conference I organized at Lehigh University about E. Timor (they didn't send
nobody, tell me why), and I did make copies of their "facts-sheet" (with
money from Portuguese students), which I distribute together with the
information I gaved to the participants. After listen to the people that
REALLY HAD BEEN IN E. TIMOR (and I assuming you never did, accept my excuses
if I am wrong), your regime position became so false, the extent of the lies
they did put in print, that the result was not very good for the image of
your country (that sometimes gets confounded with the image transmitted by
your government, mistake that I am trying to avoid).

>These words are extreme, and you and I are well aware that extremists
>will always fight.

I am not an extremist, and I understand you too are not. Please present your
position why your Regime is not: "Dictatorial"; "Oppressive"; "Imperialist"
(these last 2 words I didn't use, but I glad you did bring them up, because
they are quite applicable to your government) and how is it "Democratic".
Using this approach, and keeping our heads cool we can have a mature
discussion about the issue. Please understand that is not enough to denies it...


>What I agree on is that some officials are still corrupt.
>But then what country doesn't have corruption, especially a developing one ?

... deleted...
>But now much measures have been taken to eliminate corruption,
>wanted renegade money swindlers are broadcast on public television
>requesting their arrest, which can take quite a portion of the time,
>I tell you.
>

I don't know Indonesia (and I think that I would be refused if I apply for a
Visa B-), so I will have to trust the Indonesian people to find a solution
for that problem. We too are figthing the some problem back in Portugal, and
even here, in the States, they have lots of problems (see S&L scandal
(Savings & Loans Bank problems), for example ...).

>---------------------------------------
>Ok, so here's the more important stuff.
>Second, some factual disagreements :
>---------------------------------------
>
>1) Diversity
>
>Tolerance is highly promoted and is very valuable in Ind.
>It's not just SIMPLE 'respect', is the whole concept
>of living together, integrating, and helping each other.

Please, present proofs of tolerance toward E. Timor, West Papua, or just
poor Indonesians in the docks of Jakarta... Maybee we are not speaking of the
same word - tolerance - or something is being lost by using a third language
- english - to communicate.

>You said respect the differences of people that make our big country.
>Respect is simply not enough. We are not planning on conservatively
>preserving our lives to ourselves, but in fact, we have to introduce
>a new way of living, that is, co-existing with each other over all
>the different and hundreds of cultures in Indonesia.
>
>And the government's plans is way beyond promoting 'respect'.
>We are promoting tolerance and 'integration', which you seem
>to object to.

What I object is to, by force, imposing integration to someone that DOES NOT
want to be integrated...

>2) Integration
>
>Integration means co-existing and living with one another as
>one people. You see it as destroying a people and oppressing
>factions. No way. We see it as the only way this country can survive.
>The only way the whole world can prevent wars, blah, blah, etc.

If integration is what Indonesia is doing at E. Timor, is not the way to go for

co-existence, is the way to destruction, is not the way to avoid
war, is WAR BY ITSELF.

>Integration IS possible, and I don't see it happening anywhere
>else in the world. This is what Indonesia is unique in, and
>must be taken into consideration if you mention 'Timor People'.

I see that for you integration justifies any costs in human lives, because the
way Indonesia is getting E. Timor "integrated" is to kill any opposition, or
just put them in jails. I never see anywhere in my History books a success in
experiences of destroying hundreds of years of culture, dialects and other
roots (the collapse of the Soviet Union, the Yugoslavia, and other recent tries

are examples that no State will survive against the will of the different
peoples that are oppressed to be part of it...).

In my opinion, what Indonesia is unique in the world is the means that its
Regime uses to keep its idealization of country, no matter the consequences
(in general, extremely violent ...).

About integration, please note that EEC is becoming a reality, between
countries so diverse as Portugal and Dannemark. We are having our troubles,
but for the first time in Human History an integration is being done because
we want to, not because an Army is forcing it to happen... We will see what
will be the result in Europe, I will do my best to make this dream came true,
BUT WITHOUT VIOLENCE, WITHOUT IMPOSITIONS OF ANY KIND and BEING FREE TO DEFEND
MY IDEAS WITHOUT FEARS.


>I will leave any conclusions up to you.
>I simply don't have time to continue this article :)
>
>Best regards,
>       Andre N.
>--
>Andre Nurwono               | "Ho, haha, guard, turn, dodge, parry, spin, ha,
>andrean@cs.utexas.edu       |  thrust... (BOINNNG!)"  - Daffy Duck

Best regards, Andre Nurwono, and I hope you can find some time to reply

Jose' Basto      | "Everthing that is, is based in everthing that was"
jb00@lehigh.edu  |                             Anonymous (I beleive ...)
******************
*
*    "Tudo o que e', assenta em tudo o que foi."
*                                            Ano'nimo
*
*     Jose' Barros BASTO; Address:11,Duh Dr Apt 222; BETHLEHEM, PA 18015-3732
*     Phone :(215)758-1846; Office:(215)758-4640;  FAX:(215)758-4886   U.S.A.

Newsgroups: alt.culture.indonesia