From: rivk@ellis.uchicago.edu (nora gayle rivkis)
Subject: Re: BILL CLINTON ON ISRAEL AND THE MIDDLE
Reply-To: rivk@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 15:18:40 GMT

In article <1992Aug26.132051.8356@dscomsf.desy.de> Hallam@zeus02.desy.de writes:
>In article <1992Aug25.011556.7264@midway.uchicago.edu>, rivk@ellis.uchicago.edu
>(nora gayle rivkis) writes:
>|>In article <1992Aug24.144701.20071@dscomsf.desy.de> Hallam@zeus02.desy.de
>|>writes:
>|>
>|>>Would it not be more reasonable to accept that the Mufti and Shamir are not
>|>>representative of the people they lead? 
>|>
>|>Yes. I'll drop both halves if you will.

Ignoring this part, aren't you?

>|>>In the case of Shamir there is a point
>|>>to the debate since he is still nominal leader of a political party. 
>|>
>|>Look at your own previous sentence, Phil -- and drop it, as you yourself
>|>requested. But wuit this double standard whereby you can say "we should
>|>stop talking about either of them" and then right away go and talk about
>|>one of them.
>
>At no time have I ever claimed that Shamir is in any way representative of the
>Israeli people. Since most of the Israelis I meet consider Shamir to be at best
>mentaly deficient, this would be a ludicrous statement.
>
>However Shamir is reperesentative of the Likud party, or at the very least
>demonstrates the sort of person they are prepared to tolerate as leader.

As I hear it, they're working on getting rid of him as party leader too,
but because of the way the party structure works, it's difficult and time-
consuming. You might want to recall, for comparative purposes, how long it
took for the Republican party to stop supporting Nixon.
>
>|>You will note, while you're at it, that Shamir was recently kicked out
>|>of national office by a massive margin.
>
>Yes and in the hope that it might assist in continuing  this happy circumstance
>I will continue to dredge the skeleton's out of Shamir's closet.

Then, in the hope that it might assist the movement of the Palestinian
people away from the principles of the Mufti, we will continue to dredge
the skeletons out of *his* closet. Or everyone can just shut up about
both of them, which would be a lot easier.
>
>If someone on the net wants to start claiming that the Mufti was not a fascist
>then I would be quite happy to engage in the debate. 

Go argue with John Elghani, Yigal, Jeremy, and a couple of other people,
then, who last I saw were indeed claiming precisely that.

>Since it is only in
>Shamir's case that there are some who deny that participating in an offer to
>collaborate with the NAZIs should disqualify him from holiding any sort of
>office this is the only area in which there is debate.

No. There are indeed people who, if not actively trying to demonstrate
that the Mufti was not a Nazi collaborator, are actively claiming that
this should make no difference in the way history looks at him and is
unimportant and ought to be swept under the rug. Therefore it is required
by intellectual honesty that one equally dredge up *all* the skeletons
people are trying to hide, about both of them, or none at all.

>Phill Hallam-Baker

	-Nora
-- 
"Light one candle for those who are suffering pain we learned so long ago..."

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