From: strom@Watson.Ibm.Com (Rob Strom)
Subject: Re: Humanism (personal Experience)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 93 00:39:49 GMT
Organization: IBM Research

In article <141767.2B4B2887@paranet.FIDONET.ORG>, Bill.Carlson@p0.f18.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Bill Carlson) writes:
|> To: strom@Watson.Ibm.Com
|> 
|>  RS> Date: 5 Jan 93 17:16:19 GMT
|>  RS> Organization: IBM Research
|>  RS> Message-ID: <1993Jan05.171619.61515@watson.ibm.com>
|>  RS> Newsgroups: alt.messianic
|>  RS> In article <LJMORLY.93Jan5125542@polaris.utu.fi>,
|>  RS> ljmorly@polaris.utu.fi (Laura Johanna Manninen) writes: 
|>  
|>  RS> The context was that David Harwood claimed that I was giving
|>  RS> an ignorant misinterpretation of Christianity in claiming that
|>  RS> the Christian position was that one must believe in Jesus
|>  RS> to be saved.  He argued that the true meaning was that one
|>  RS> must lead a righteous life in the pattern of Jesus.
|> 
|>           But both are true.  

What?  Laura is right that one must believe in Jesus to be saved,
and David H. is also right that I am ignorantly misinterpreting
Christianity in stating that Christians claim one must
believe in Jesus to be saved?

As you probably know, we Jews rarely talk about "being saved".
That's very much a Christian style of speaking.  A Jew cares
about doing right, not about "being saved".  Almost always
when I hear a Christian talk about "being saved" they mean
"saved from hell".

|>      Faith is the "Door". -Then a hallway that
|>      one enters is a path of good-works/mitzvot as enabled by the
|>      Ruach HaKodesh; as says the New Covenant.  They go hand in
|>      hand.  For while it says: 'you are saved by grace through faith
|>      and not of works/mitzvot lest man should boast'; It also states:
|>      'faith without works/mitzvot is dead and stands alone.'

Are you saying that you believe faith in Jesus is a means to
the end of good works?  

Do you believe that faith is necessary
condition, a sufficient condition, or both?  

If you think it is a necessary condition, how do you explain
that non-Christians seem to be as capable of good works
as Christians?

Why do you
think people are more likely to boast about their good works
than about their faith?  That doesn't square with what
I observe in practice from Christians.

Don't you see how far your (Christian) view is from the
Jewish position, which is basically that one should
practice doing the good works?


|>  RS> And again here.  You see --- you're not just "a Jew who believes
|>  RS> in Jesus".  You believe in hell.
|> 
|>      So do the Lubbavitcher!  Read: The Tales Of The Baal Shem Tov.
|> 

The Lubavitchers do not teach that anyone will go to hell
for their unorthodox beliefs.  Laura believes that I will
go to hell for not believing in Jesus.  Chasidism and
Christianity are just miles apart.  If you disagree, give
me specifics.

|>  RS> You believe Paul's contention that salvation is "not from
|>  RS> yourselves".
|> 
|>      That is not just "Paul's contention"; Tanakh says the same thing;
|>      that Salvation is from HaShem; and that apart from Him there is
|>      nothing.

Can you be more precise?  



-- 
Rob Strom, strom@watson.ibm.com, (914) 784-7641
IBM Research, 30 Saw Mill River Road, P.O. Box 704, Yorktown Heights, NY  10598
Newsgroups: alt.messianic