HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: c23st@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com (Spiros Triantafyllopoulos)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: More Pseudo Scholars in Action defending the Ottomans
Date: 22 Nov 1992 01:15:37 -0600
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic, actually AT&T's very own Hasan B Mutlu) writes:

> >How's this different from the forced religion changes caused by the
> >angelic Ottomans (tm)? 
> 
> Is this the "perlman-ian" of the week? The following observations by 
> Westerners were written in French by Ahmet Cevat: 

Does it make it more credible if it is in French, Mutlu? Is Mr. Ahmet Cevat 
a Turk or not? Nah, he's a Turk alright, but he's objective (in French!)

(* [Many patronising statements] These facts demonstrate that Muslim
(* countries provided spiritually far better living conditions than Christian
(* countries."[1]

And, 

(* On account of this, the autonomy of minorities in Turkey is better and 
(* more complete than any in the most advanced European countries."[2]

And,

(* Turks never oppress anybody on account of his religion. [3]

And, 

(* "In that vast and calm country of the sultan, all religions and nations are
(* living together peacefully. [4]"

Of course, "(*" is Turkiye's very own..... But some of Djevat's stuff was
actually written by A. Ubicini.... Any info on Signor Ubicini, Mutlu?

(* [1]  Ah. Djevat, "Yabancilara Gore Eski Turkler," 3rd ed. (Istanbul, 1978),
(*      pp. 70-71.
(* [2]  Ibid., p.91.
(* [3]  Ibid., pp. 214-
(* [4]  Ibid., pp. 215-216.

As usual, I won't challenge your statements above. I'll just challenge
you to produce a NON-Turkish source for any of the stuff above. I am
sure  I can read BAGDHAT NEWS or IRAQI FREE PRESS and see "objectivism"
all over the place about Iraq winning the MOTHER OF ALL WARS. But coming
from a country where freedom of expression is questionable at best 
newspapers being collected before publication,  movies, poems, Kurdish
language, etc all censored/forbidden until very recently, etc) I'd have
a hard time accepting Djevat Bey as anything other than a career paid
propagandist. 

> Serdar Argic

Surely, you jest.

Spiros
From: kahdieh@tartarus.uwa.edu.au (Kyan Ahdieh)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: soc.religion.baha'i
Date: 19 Nov 1992 07:40:26 GMT
Organization: The University of Western Australia
NNTP-Posting-Host: tartarus.uwa.edu.au
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5


Xref: sparky soc.culture.turkish:11843 talk.politics.mideast:22343 talk.politics.soviet:9044 soc.culture.greek:10766 soc.culture.europe:9702 soc.culture.soviet:10129 soc.rights.human:4250 soc.culture.yugoslavia:9621
From: c23st@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com (Spiros Triantafyllopoulos)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: More on forgeries and hidden identities of our feathered friend
Date: 17 Nov 1992 13:13:42 -0600
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

Deniz writes:
> I actually disagree. 90% of Turks that I know have expressed ridicule
> for Argic postings, or at least some annoyance that it was too much.
> But, there really seems to be nothing to do, how do you stop a forger?
> The mail is obviously forged, and there seems to be no way to stop a
> determined hacker from getting to USENET and flooding.  I think the
> easiest way to stop the Argic personality (for it is probably a bunch of
> people doing the postings) is to deprive them of the attention they
> crave.  How long do you think they will keep on posting if they received
> stony silence?

About a couple of years...

Next week I'll be posting some sample source code in comp.windows.x
or wherever. I'll call a variable Mutlu and another Argic. Wanna
bet Argic's powerful grep will catch it and prepare the appropriate
response? (not kidding, watch source groups for details).

I write an article about Poultry and he responds with his usual crap
about Greeks mistreating Dinosaurs. Now, my own home computer is on
the net, just like his. I could play the same kind of crappy tricks he
does to pretty much post anonymously; It ain't all that hard if you
have a feed that cooperates (and anatolia.mn.org DOES cooperate,
right, Ahmet?)  It takes extremely little effort to get uucp up and
running from a PC, took me the best part of 2 hours.

I write an article about buses in Greece, and, you guessed it, more
Mutlu crap. No big deal I guess. If the net administrators are busy
debating whether to call a group rec.music.synth instead of
rec.music.makers.synth (see debate in news.groups) they can bear a
few more KiloMutlus... Yo, Mutlu, I post quite a bit on rec.autos, too.

Anyhow... The man obviously has an ax to grind. Let him do it. It ain't
costing me anything. He and his employer (THE phone company) are getting
rich out of it. Can you imagine all these poor bastards with the
trailblazers paying to UUCP Hasan's crap? Chi-Ching!

(Oh, Hasan, how's Dho Nesve doing?)

Spiros
--
Spiros Triantafyllopoulos                    "I don't want to make money,
c23st@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com                 I just want to read News..."



Newsgroups: soc.culture.turkish
From: J.Theodore.Schuerzinger@dartmouth.edu (J. Theodore Schuerzinger)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.turkish,talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,soc.culture.soviet,soc.rights.human,soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: "Travesty International" and the Armenian genocide of 
 Azeris.
Date: 18 Nov 92 17:04:07 GMT
 <9211172122@zuma.UUCP>
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH
X-Posted-From: InterNews1.0a5@newshost.dartmouth.edu

Serdar--

You conveniently ignore the fact that one million (or so, I don't have
the exact number handy) Armenians were killed by the Ottomans toward
the end of World War I.  Trying to deny this is a lot like trying to
deny the atrocities of the Khmer Rouge or worse, like trying to deny
the Holocaust existed.

--Ted Schuerzinger
email: .zed@Dartmouth.EDU
"I should have realized it would be bad vodka when all the label said
was 'Russian Vodka'."

[Jewish readers who find it inappropriate that I compared the genocide
against the Armenians to the Holocaust may flame me by email.]
Xref: sparky soc.culture.turkish:11877 talk.politics.mideast:22368 talk.politics.soviet:9061 soc.culture.greek:10788 soc.culture.europe:9722 soc.history:9642
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.turkish,talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,soc.history
Followup-To: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: The growing wave of historical revisionism.
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 92 14:47:56 EST
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world

In article <1992Nov21.012401.1506@oneb.almanac.bc.ca> kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay) writes:

>It is nearly time for the Sendar to clone himself, in order to flood
>unsuspecting news spools with un-killed userid's... alas, your only hope is

More ridicule; I take it? Still not addressing the original points made.
The Dashnaktsutiun revolutionary party had embarked into action without
losing time; it had initiated massacres even before a treaty was signed
between the Ottomans and the Russians. General Tovmas Nazarbekov 
(Nazarbekian), who was responsible for the Armenian massacres of the Muslims
between 1914 and 1917, was appointed commander to the Armenian army. This
army was established with the approval of General Przhevalsky, the Chief of
General Staff of the Russian Caucasian Armies, and was composed of three
brigades. The first brigade was placed under the command of bloodthirsty
adventurer General Dro (Drastamar Kanaian) who had massacred Muslims in
1914 and 1915; the second brigade was placed under the command of Colonel
Silikian, and the third one under the command of Antranik who had slaughtered
more than 600,000 Kurds between 1915 and 1916. These armies committed massacres
against the Muslims.[1]

[1] A. N. Kurat, "Turkiye ve Rusya, 1798-1919" (Ankara, 1975), p. 364-371. 

Serdar Argic

                     'This war quickly developed into one of extermination. 
                      We closed the roads and mountain passes that might 
                      serve as ways of escape for the Tartars [Turks] and 
                      then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)

Xref: sparky soc.culture.turkish:11851 talk.politics.mideast:22351 talk.politics.soviet:9050 soc.culture.greek:10774 soc.culture.europe:9710 soc.rights.human:4254
From: mucit@cs.rochester.edu (Bulent Murtezaoglu)
Subject: Re: Ata-Turk - Trator or Ok dude?
Organization: Computer Science Department, University of Rochester
	<1992Nov23.045327.3630@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>
Date: 23 Nov 92 07:26:53

In article <1992Nov23.045327.3630@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> frasyid@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Fuadi Rasyid) writes:

> Reading an Ottoman text is not the matter of discussion, If I had studied
> I would have read it w/o any problem. My point in here was that
> every even average muslim should be able to read Koran which is same 
> script that was used during ottoman era, so we could assume that 
> literacy rate must be strikingly high. 

The old people that I know who can "read the Qu'ran" can look at the 
the script and recite it in Arabic.  IMHO there's got to be more
to reading than that as those people can't understand Arabic.
As for your assumption, I'd bet you're wrong.  I'd expect the 
literacy rate to be low, and the functional illiteracy rate to be
strikingly high.  I've also heard that the Arabic script is unsuitable
for writing Turkish, but I'd leave that to more knowledgable people 
to discuss (Mark maybe?).

> Hence there had to be another reason to abolish islamic scripture. 

I take this to refer to changing the alphabet.  It is patently fallacious
to suppose God has a preference for certain alphabets, so I don't know
what to make of what you seem to be saying.

> No need for being a scholar, to conclude  that the change was committed for 
> an evil purpose. 

Yup, you've established it beyond all doubt :).

> Clearly, it is abolished 
> to disconnect the tie between the young generation and islam. 

The young generation is quite happy to be able to learn to read and
write in a year.  I don't see anything un-Islamic about having an
easier alphabet.

> I think 
> defenders of him still scare to death witnessing the revival of islam 
> in Turkey again.

Any sane person would be scared of religious fanaticism if that's what
you're referring to.  Maybe you could tell us more about what this 
revival entails?  Or better yet, please do tell us what you'd like to
see Turkey transformed into.  Here's a short non-exhaustive summary of what 
I'd like to see changed in my lifetime:

- People ought to be able to dress as they wish in public schools (goes
both ways though).  

- Religion classes should be elective and be offered to the minorities too.

- All government support for mosques, religious high-schools etc. should
be stopped.  

- The office of religious affairs should be closed.

- The alphabet stays the same :).

What do you think?  I guess I'm after a secular state and freedom
of religion.  If you want the state to support/implement whatever
the popular conception of Islam is, we have a problem.  



>   F.R.

B.M.
From: spebcg@thor.cf.ac.uk (Mr B G Cetiner 92)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: Re: faith, technology and power
Keywords: listen everybody
Date: 23 Nov 92 11:10:46 GMT
Organization: University of Wales College at Cardiff
X-Mailer: Cardiff Computing Maths PP Mail Open News Gateway


In article <1992Nov21.043958.27223@ncsu.edu>, bbabdulk@unity.ncsu.edu (Bilisik Abdulkadir) writes:
| 
| ESKIDEN SAHIP OLDUGUMUZ VE SONRA  BATININ BIZDEN CALDIGI TEKNOLOJIYI BILGI BIRIKIMINI GELIN HEP BIRLIKTE CALISARAK GERI ALALIM. OGRETELIM DUNYAYA NE OLDUGUMUZU.

-OHAA..("oh"o "oh"o..pardon). Yaa oyle Abdulkadir beykardesim. Herifler 
-herseylerini bizden caldilar. Yoksa hepisinin icleri bos, SIFIRlar anasini 
-satiim. 

Sayin otomatik kavun Islam dusmanligindan dolayi kullanilan cumleyi 
dusunup tasinmadan hemen kinini kusuyorsun. Sayin Abdulkadir Bey Eskiden
sahip oldugumuz diyor sizin asagida yazdiginiz ve benim tamamini okumaya
tenezzul etmedigim ve sildigim RUBBISH te hayali olaylar hep 1900
sonrasinda geciyor. Siz de hic zaman mevhumu kalmamis.

Evet 1900 sonrasinda aslinda ilerleyebilirdik, uzaya ilk araci biz
gonderbilirdik. Fakat ah o basi ortululer, tesbihli takkeliler yokmu?
Tam otomatik kavun ve ekibindeki zihniyet ilk roketi yapti uzaya 
firlatacakti O da ne! evet roket bir basortusune takildi ve infilak
etti.

Ha . Ha .Ha.......



Geride kalan rubbish silindi....

| ABDULKADIR BILISIK

-"Abdul" Selim
Insanin sadece yuce yaraticisina kul olmasinin disinda degisik
putlar edinmesi ve tapinmasi her zaman olagelmistir. Insan kendi
nefsine ve zekasina da tapar, aynen otomatik kavunun yaptigi gibi.
Bakin Selimin Kulu anlamina gelen "Abdul"Selim yazmis.
Senin nefsine taptigini zaten biliyorduk Selimcik o lafi yazmana
hic gerek yoktu.

Beytullah
Xref: sparky soc.culture.turkish:11573 talk.politics.mideast:22149 talk.politics.soviet:8906 soc.culture.greek:10565 soc.culture.europe:9533 soc.culture.soviet:9937 soc.rights.human:4213 talk.politics.cis:34
From: J.Theodore.Schuerzinger@dartmouth.edu (J. Theodore Schuerzinger)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.turkish,talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,soc.culture.soviet,soc.rights.human,soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: Why was it easy to organize a genocide against 2.5 million 
 Muslims?
Date: 21 Nov 92 17:52:50 GMT
 <9211202037@zuma.UUCP>
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH
X-Posted-From: InterNews1.0a5@newshost.dartmouth.edu

In article <9211202037@zuma.UUCP>
sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic) writes:

> In article <SUOPANKI.92Nov19174504@stekt7.oulu.fi> suopanki@stekt7.oulu.fi (Heikki T. Suopanki) writes:
> 
> >> All reliable Ottoman historians describe how Armenians ruthlessly
         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >> exterminated 2.5 million Muslim women, children and elderly people of 
> >> Eastern Anatolia 

When talking about wars and alleged massacres, there aren't many
reliable reporters, especially when you're reporting on what your
enemies are doing.  Perhaps a better term would be "All reliable
Ottoman propagandists...."

> >When I read that passage the only conclusion is that the Muslim men did
> >leave Eastern Anatolia and let the women, children and elderly people die....
> >So Muslim men are cowards?
> 
> "Finos". Amazing creatures. With your level of understanding, I thought 
                              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Those who have no facts generally revert to ad hominem attacks.

> that I'd be nice and help you to get the point. 

> [some drivel deleted]
 
> 
> "Kazim Karabekir
> 
> It is recorded in official Ottoman publications that even before the
                    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
There's a reliable, unbiased source for you.

> [lots more drivel deleted]

> [1] "Ermeni Komitelerinin Amal...," p. 161, BBA, the Ministry of the
>     Interior, Directorate General of Security, K: 47, 22 November 1914.
>     It is also noted in the same file that there were wireless sets in
>     Armenian schools (17 November 1914).
> [2] "Ermeni Komitelerinin Amal...," p. 161; "Askeri Tarih Belgeleri,"
>     Vol. XXXII, 83 (December 1983), documents numbered 1899-1915.

So these are the sources?  These are about as biased as you can get. 
It would be a lot like trying to use only what Saddam Hussein gave the
UN inspectors and using that to "prove" there was no nuclear program in
Iraq.  Everybody knows something's being hidden.

Meanwhile, Serdar still denies the genocide against the Armenians....

Smiley-faces where appropriate for Serdar and the rest of the
humor-impaired.

--Ted Schuerzinger
email: .zed@Dartmouth.EDU
"Denial is not just a river in Africa."
(Stuart Smalley)
From: akyurek@cs.umd.edu (Sedat Akyurek)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: Re: Traps
Date: 18 Nov 92 05:59:46 GMT
Organization: U of Maryland, Dept. of Computer Science, Coll. Pk., MD 20742

In article <1ebv5cINNqb8@agate.berkeley.edu> hhrant@ocf.berkeley.edu (Helgge Minassian) writes:
>
>   If no one objects, traps will be set up to find all
>   the Mutlus on this net.  The more Multu posts, the
>   more information we will have on the e-mail sources.


I do not know what you have in mind but I STRONGLY OBJECT to this.
(Of course I don't know what difference does this make)

Who do you think you are, the net police ?

We have beared the trashes the 'ians' posted in this news group
and elsewhere, and posting articles is not your right only.


Sedat.
From: c23st@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com (Spiros Triantafyllopoulos)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: soccer question
Date: 18 Nov 1992 07:50:43 -0600
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

Hey folks,

I've seen lots of scores and info posted about Turkish soccer. I have
a couple of questions.

a. do you have professional soccer the way it is in other countries
   in Europe and elsewhere?

b. do you have major/minor league or A B C divisions? if so, do you
   have the same system where the last two teams in division A 
   are demoted to division B and the best two from B promoted to A?

c. can you have foreighners play for a Turkish team? if you do, do
   you?

I'd guess that the answer to all three is yes, but am not sure. The 
question came up in the office about rules and whether they're 
universal in countries participating in the European Cups etc.

Thanks,

Spiros
Newsgroups: soc.culture.turkish
From: bbabdulk@unity.ncsu.edu (Bilisik Abdulkadir)
Subject: Re: faith, technology and power
Keywords: listen everybody
Organization: North Carolina State University Project Unity
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1992 22:38:38 GMT
From: ega029@comp.lancs.ac.uk (Lami Kaya)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: Re: MAL BULMU$ MAGRIBI (was Re: Hz MUHAMMEDIN DOKUZ YASINDAKI...)
Keywords: islamic orthodoxy, religious tolerance
Date: 20 Nov 92 12:46:34 GMT
Organization: Department of Computing at Lancaster University, UK.

>Eger sen Taberi Tarihi, Ibnul Esir etc gibi tarih kitaplarini gormus veya 
>okumus olsaydin bu gulunc iddiada bulunamazdin. Sana islam hakkinda bilgin 
>yok deyince elimde 5 tane meal var deyip ortaya cikiyorsun. Islamiyet sadece 
>Kur'an dan veya mealinden ibaret degil bilesin. Eger peygamberimiz o devrin
>adetlerine aykiri bir davranista bulunmus olsaydi, yani yasca kendinden cok
>kucuk bir kizla evlenme adetini icat etseydi, sen saniyormusun o zamanin     
>munafiklari bunlari diline dolamayacakti. 

Hasan'in yukaridak yazdiklarini kendimce biraz cekingen bir yaklasim
buluyorum. Resulullah (SAV) eger birseyin hak olduguna inanmis ve oyle
kendisine bildirilmis ise cevrenin/toplumun reaksiyonu ne olacak diye
yapmaktan cekinmezdi. Yani munafiklarin ve kafirlerin negatif propogandasindan
cekinecegini soylemek yanlis olmaz mi? 

Islam yanlizca bir devre ve kabileye ait degildir. Resullulah'in yaptigi
ve soyledigi seyler butun muslumanlara ornek teskil ettiginden (bazi ozel
durumlari oldugu muhakkak) yukaridaki yaklasim bana Ingililzerin dedigi
gibi 'apolegetic' geldi. Allah ve Resulu bu zamanda Tarik Dursun, Kaya 
Guralp ve taifesinin bugun cikip onun evliliklerine ve hayatina dil
uzatabilecegini biliyordu ve bundan cekinmiyor. 

Kaya ve taifesi islamin ekonomik, sosyal, politik boyutlarini tartisip
ogreneceklerine kendilerince saldiracaklari bazi hususlara saldirmalari
onlarin neyin pesinde olduklarini gostermesi acisindan yeterli sanirim.


Kaya gibilerine fazla sinirlenip kizmayalim; Necip Fazil ne diyor:

Ey Dusmanim!
Gunduz geceye muhtac , bana da sen lazimsin

Lami

Selam, hidayeti arayip izlemeye caba gosterenlerin uzerine olsun
From: bbabdulk@unity.ncsu.edu (Bilisik Abdulkadir)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: Faith, Technology and Power
Date: 21 Nov 92 22:47:57 GMT
Organization: North Carolina State University Project Unity

Keywords: internal



Sayin dogan,

Birisinin "  yasam sorgulamasi " baslikli yazinizi yazmis oldugum "Faith, Technology and Power" baslikli yaziya cevab olarak dusunursuk , yazinizin clear olmadigi anlasiliyor.   Belirtmek istediginizi daha acik olarak yazarsaniz yanlis anlasilmaktan kurtulmus olursunuz.


Saygilar,


Abdulkadir Bilisik
MMRC
CML
Newsgroups: soc.culture.turkish
From: deniz@mandolin.ctr.columbia.edu (Deniz Akkus)
Subject: Re: DEniz Akkus'a
Organization: Columbia University Center for Telecommunications Research
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 18:54:30 GMT
X-Posted-From: mandolin.ctr.columbia.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In article <4939.9211201620@thor.cf.ac.uk> speeo@thor.cf.ac.uk (Mr Ercan Otemel 92) writes:
>
>
>
>Can you please define what the RELIGION is and what the RELIGIOUS
>FREEDOM is. You can also define SECULARISM if you like.
>

Religious freedom is being able to obey or not obey a religious system
of beliefs to the point of not interfering with someone else's right to
do so.  I would support Islamic or whatever dress for people who wished
to dress as such, but not enforcing such dress on all.  I would support
elective religion classes for all, but not mandatory classes.  I would
support a work establishment that allowed its employees to take breaks
for prayer but not one that forced its employees to pray.  I would show
respect for those choosing to obey the dietary requirements of Islam,
but would also not mind if someone chose not to keep such requirements.

Problem is, from both religious and non-religious groups, the wish to
make the others also conform.  So, if one does not like Islam, all those
wishing to obey Islam are condemned.  If one is religious, one
immediately starts trying to get all others to accept the full teaching
of Islam, with repercussions to the government and law.  

I don't think that Turkey is fully religiously free.  However whether or
not a democracy should allow for a rule that would end democracy is a
question.  That is, if Islamic government will cause problems and
discontent in those for which it proscribes less freedom -- that is,
women, Christians and Jews, can a democracy which claims equal rights
for its citizens allow such a government?  

I do not wish to discuss 'how Islamic government is actually very good
for women Christians and Jews if only they would see it as such'.  The
point is that most of the members of these groups feel that Islamic
government is not as good as a secular government for them, and they are
entitled to their opinion.  

So, coming back to religious freedom, if all one wants to do is to
practice Islam as a religion, for one's self, there is religious freedom
in Turkey.  You can go to your mosque, you can pray, you can keep to the
teachings of Islam.  If you are facing discrimination in government
positions or at school because you choose to obey Islam, you have my
support.  But, if you  see Islam as a political entity for the
material world as well as spiritual and if what you are wishing for is
Islamic government and its rule over the people of Turkey, we have a
problem.  Islamic government provides significantly different rights for
women and other religious groups.  Such a change, I am against.   

regards,
Deniz Akkus deniz@ctr.columbia.edu




Organization: Doctoral student, Chemistry, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA