From: farkas@wrl.dec.com (Keith Farkas)
Newsgroups: rec.photo
Subject: Summary of Canon EOS 10s vs Elan vs Pentax PZ1 vs Nikon 8008s
Date: 29 Jul 92 04:13:07 GMT
Organization: DEC Western Research Lab

More than a week ago, I posted a request for comments regarding the merits
of the Canon EOS 10s, ELAN, Pentax PZ1 and Nikon 8008s. What follows are
extracts of the mail I received from the following people:

Robert Groom     - robert@labtam.labtam.oz.au
Gordon Henderson - gordon@meiko.co.uk 
David Jacobson   - jacobson@cello.hpl.hp.com
Dan Liddell	 - dan@netcom.com 
Timothy E. Rapp  - terst1@unix.cis.pitt.edu
Benson Wen 	 - queeph@hing.LCS.MIT.EDU

For those of you wondering, I eventually decided on a Pentax PZ1 for several
reasons:

1) I have a number of simple K-mount Pentax lenses that I will be able to
   use with the PZ1 until I am rich enough to purchase their auto-everything
   equivalents.

2) I desired a camera with a built-in flash and a depth-of-field previewer;
   the Nikon 8008s does not have a flash and I found the depth-of-field preview
   cumbersome on the Canon ELAN.

3) Loyalty to Pentax -- not really

4) The Pentax felt less bulky than the Canon and was lighter than the Nikon
   especially after the 4 AA cells were installed in the 8008s.

  keith farkas (farkas@eecg.toronto.edu	or farkas@pa.dec.com)

 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------   

> One of my questions was regarding the 's' that many manufacturers include
> in the model numbers of their cameras ... I said 

>>	Most manufacturers seem to offer a XXX model and a XXXs model; 
>>	to what does the 's' refer?

+ I'm not sure.  But when Nikon added spot metering to the 8008 they called
  it the 8008s. (David Jacobson) 

+ The 's' indicates that the SLR includes a built-in flash
  ('S'peedlite) (Timothy E. Rapp) 

+ The use of the 's' in the name is non-standard.  For the 8008/8008s
  the s indicates faster AF motor, focus tracking, & spot metering.  
  For the F4/F4s it means the extended battery pack.

  For the 10/10s the s is the American version, sans dateback.
  For the Rebel/RebelS the S means with flash on board. (Benson Wen)


		>>>>> General Comments on Cameras <<<<<

+ DEPTH OF FIELD PROGRAM MODE -- I asked about the usefulness of the
  depth-of-field program mode on the Canon EOS 10s. Several people commented
  that they found this feature fun but not that useful. David Jacobson said
  that he would prefer d-of-f markings on a lens to any automatic system.  I
  agree with his preference, yet unfortunately, for some reason Nikon,
  Pentax, etc have decided to exclude all such markings from the lenses that
  work with the automatic SLR cameras. Ideas?

+ BACKLIT DISPLAYS -- some felt that it was quite useful especially for
  twilight photography but the majority felt that it (a) wasted battery
  power, and (b) could be easily done without -- a flash light works well
  instead :-).

+ METERING TYPE -- I mentioned in my original post that the Canon EOS 10 did
  not offer spot metering. Some felt that "Spot metering is wonderful" (Dan
  Liddell) while others felt that partial metering can nearly as effective
  and thus spot metering is not a "need-to-have" feature.

  Timothy E. Rapp wrote
  
      "The Elan has partial metering of 6.5% of the viewfinder, the 10s has
      partial metering of 8.5%.  Partial metering is very similar to spot
      metering, and superior in some instances.  Partial metering works
      through the lens and is adjustable with use of zoom lenses.  Smaller %
      is closer to spot metering."

+ RELIABILITY -- I mentioned that I have had a Pentax K1000 (brass body) for
  years and have found it to be indestructible. Generally people felt that
  all the major manufacturers are producing reliable cameras and thus
  reliability is not really an issue.

  Robert Groom wrote

     "A good friend of mine has just bought a Z1 (=PZ1) and my first
     impression is that it's much lighter and more "plasticky" than I would
     have expected for a camera aimed at the advanced amateur/"pro" market.
     My EF28-80L USM lens alone weighs more than her Z1 and 35-70 lens
     combined! :-)"

  I asked a salesman at a reputable camera store about the durability of the
  modern camera bodies. He said that he had never heard of anyone having any
  problems with the bodies giving out, cracking or fracturing. He reminded
  me that the plastics being used are not your low-cost variety. A fellow
  customer then perked up and said "After all bullet proof glass is made from
  plastic ..." :-)

	>>>>> Regarding the Nikon 8008s, David Jacobson writes <<<<<

  I have the 8008 and like it very much.  You have to decide for
  yourself whether or not a built-in flash is a must have.  They tend to
  be red-eye prone.  But they would be very nice if you want to travel
  light or want fill-in flash.  
 
  The down side of flash is all cameras with built-in flash (except
  maybe for the Nikon 5005, which I doubt you want) use lithium
  batteries.  That is a big plus for the 8008.

	>>>>> Regarding the Canon EOS 10s and ELAN <<<<<

In Ben Wen's first piece of mail to me, he said that he prefers the ELAN over
the 10s. When I asked why, he supplied the following comprehensive list

 >> What's good <<
 
  * MUCH better AI Focus--the 10s hunts forever even in moderate room
    light.  The Elan was right there, on par or better than an N8008s which
    supposedly focuses at -1EV

  * Better design of user interface--I could switch focus modes, drive
    speed, and exp comp while looking through the viewfinder.  Drive speed
    and exp comp are particularly hard to switch on the 10s.  Manual mode
    is painless, no stupid button to hold down when selecting shutter
    speed (or aperture).  And yea! a quick control dial!

  * 3 metering patterns, and it's selectable--None of that thumb button
    stuff.

  * Exp. comp. bar graph in viewfinder. (see below)

  * quiet.

  * DOF check with a zoom was more correct--As you zoomed, the diaphragm
    compensated to maintain a constant f-stop (within physical limits and
    all EOS' reports it if it changes).  With the 10s you had to release
    the button and press again.  In fact I've always liked the fact that
    the EF mount provided this "real aperture" feature, even though I
    don't presently have a zoom.

  * A better flash--zoom head, rear curtain sync, red-eye reduction,
    variable power.

  * A more useful 3fps motor drive--I've never found the need to rely on
    the 5fps the 10s gives.  Shoot a roll of 36exp faster than you can
    load it?  No way, sounds like a crutch to me; y'gotta learn to
    anticipate that decisive moment and snag it.

  * A backlit viewfinder display--It even has three or four light
    levels, selected to match the scene brightness!

    Also, at a photo show I had the opportunity to check out side-by-side
    the 10s, Elan, and 1 each with a 28-80L f2.8-4.0.  I got news for you.
    the Elan's AF topped out in "lowest contrast" test (No AF assist
    light).  Otherwise they were all similar.  (I didn't check the 1's
    4.5fps AI Servo claim).  The zoom was set to the wide end to allow the
    1's crossed sensor to operate.  (Both the 10s' and the Elan's AF chip
    focuses crossed contrast with all lenses, the 1 requires f2.8 or
    faster.)

 >> What's wrong: <<

  * Metered manual isn't full info--I mean, DUH! why put a bar graph in
    the viewfinder if you don't use it for metering!!?  Somebody at
    marketing had a louder voice than the engineers.  This has pissed me
    off since I looked into the EOS line.  Only the top-o-the-line EOS-1
    and the bottom-o-the-line Rebels have it?!  Geez.

  * No leader out option for rewind--Again DUH!  And I do change film
    mid-roll a lot.

  * No interchangeable screens--I sure would like a microprism on the
    Elan for Manual focus.  

  * No backlit top deck.


		>>>>> Regarding Pentax Cameras <<<<<

Gordon Henderson wrote:

  I've just upgraded (or downgraded) my K1000 to a Z10.

  I had a 28-80 zoom on the K1000, and got the same lens for the Z10, but
  with the AF & power zoom functions.

  With the Z10 in manual mode, I feel that its exactly the same as the
  K1000. (only, the meter on the Z10 is a spot-meter in manual mode - you
  can press the "hyper" button in manual mode & the camera works out the
  exposure time for you, based on it's 6 segment metering system)

  I must admit that I like the autofocus feature. It's fast and accurate.
  Doesn't work in the dark though!

  The built-in flash is good for a fill-in flash. I havn't really
  excercised it in real dark conditions. (GN 12/100asa if I remember
  correctly)

  The one feature I don't like on my Z10 is that when it is in auto
  mode, I have no idea what shutter speed & f-stop it is using. 

Robert Groom wrote:

  I recently purchased the PZ1 myself and have been very pleased with it.  I
  previously had a Pentax ME which I got many years ago, and got good use out
  of it.  I have been very impressed with the PZ1 and the Pentax Functions
  really do add to your flexibility.  I'm not familiar with the other cameras
  you mentioned so I can't help you there.