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Date:         Wed, 27 Jan 1993 08:04:17 -0500
From:         finger@ADRA.COM
Subject:      Re: Sexual Discrimination

Mark Charalambous writes:

> Though what I will eventually submit has certainly benefited from the
> information gleaned from the responses and the reading I've done ("Mom's
 House,
> Dad's House", "Divided Children" by Michael Wheeler), I'm still in a quandary
> over this basic dilemma:
>  On the one hand, typical advice for fathers is "you *must* take the high
>  road". Don't rag too much about your ex as you may be seen as shrill etc.
>  I have heard this from virtually all quarters, so I believe there must be
>  more than a kernel of wisdom to this advice. However, on the other hand,
>  it is also true that courts are most likely to give custody to fathers ONLY
>  IN CASES WHERE THE MOTHER IS SEEN AS "UNFIT".  It seems that the father
>  *has* to denigrate his spouse, at least to the extent that she be perceived
>  as "unfit".

I got the same advice. My feeling is that it's as much for the lawyers
benefit as yours. If either of you get the judge angry, you'll pay the
price in this case and your lawyer will have problems with him/her in
the future. The high road is "safest" for you both. It's also the least
likely to get you custody IMHO.

In Massachusetts, the policy (unspoken, of course) is to award custody
to the father only in cases where there is clear neglect, physical (not
emotional) danger, or the child is older than 12 and states a
preference as my daughter did.


>So in the case where the mother is a fit mother by conventional standards,
>but a horrible human being otherwise -- particularly in how she abused the
>system to get temporary custody etc -- which path should a father take?
>My take on this so far is to try and accomplish both but wording it all so
>that potential damage to oneself is minimized, but to make sure that I get my
>story

I'm in exactly the same situation. My ex2b and her fiance are both
verbally abusive alcoholics but they never get really plastered around
the kids. The only thing I can do try to mitigate the damage during my
limited visitation time. ...and wait.

  - Alan
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Date:         Sat, 23 Jan 1993 10:26:58 -0500
From:         David Garrod <garrod@ECN.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject:      re: Guardian Ad Litem advice

I agree with Byron`s last paragraph.  I do not like to publish personal details
over the net, so I will just add the comment that if you say anything positive
about your ex with regard to love/caring for the child it may well come back
to kill your chances of custody.  Whatever negative you say will, in any case,
be discounted by the judge because of his personal prejudice towards the
mother.

  Do not give the opposition any ammunition to use for themselves or against
you.

David Garrod
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Return-receipt-to: "glover" <glover@msmailgw1.arlut.utexas.edu>
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Date:         Thu, 21 Jan 1993 08:50:03 U
From:         glover <glover@MSMAILGW1.ARLUT.UTEXAS.EDU>
Subject: RE: WIS. CS LAWs - Citing the judge

In a previous post, David Garrod says:

>     I point out again in this issue, that the judge did nothing wrong
>in Wisconsin.  He was merely following the law.
>    The beef is against the statute and the legislators for passing the
>statute, not the judge.
>
>    (And I hated to state the above.  I do not usually regard judges
>      as unbiased, highly intelligent people - merely, for the most,
>     people who could not make a decent living as attorneys.)
>
>David Garrod

Now for those who have seen the last two postings regarding identifying judges
and attorneys who make/support unfair biased rulings, let me summarize: (or go
back through your mail)

1) A suggestion was posted to start tracking judges and their decisions.
2) I responded with "Let's add attorneys to that list!"
3) A third party responded to me saying "Let's add social workers and
mediators"
4) Now we have David adding "Statutes and legislators"

I feel these are all good ideas and should be compiled on a county by county
basis. What we need to do is work together and get some support from a few
brave
and UNBIASED attorneys.

Some ideas for the work ahead:

1a) Compile a list of "Anti-Fairness" statutes for the area of interest,
county,
   state, federal.
1b) Review the voting records of the individuals responsible.
1c) Publish those records and distribute to the appropriate support groups

2a) Have people send information into a central clearing house giving such
    information as:
         His attorney's name & Bar #
         Her attorney's name & Bar #
         Judge's name and court
         etc.
         etc.
         etc.
3) Same for social workers
4) Same for mediators


Any Thoughts ???
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Date:         Tue, 26 Jan 1993 13:46:44 -0600
From:         CMSWALTERS@MINNA.ACC.IIT.EDU
Subject:      Re: Sharing personal experiences.

FREE people,

A large percentage of the traffic on this forum seems to deal with
custody/support issues for younger kids.  I hope some of you can
share suggestions which may help me deal with a somewhat different
issue involving older kids.

My kids are 15 (son) and 18 (daughter, in college away from home).
Support is really a relatively short-term issue.  The big problem
is that they are both very angry with me and will not even speak
to me on the telephone.  They see me as the bad guy because I
made the decision to end the marriage.  I understand that they
are angry and hurt.  I understand that they feel a lot of pressure
to be "loyal" to their mother, who they see as a victim.
I have tried to discuss with them the concept that they should
not feel guilty about the ending of the marriage, that they should
not take upon themselves responsibility for 'fixing the situation',
to no avail.  I have tried to point out to them that my relationship
to them is separate from my relationship with their mother.  This
has gone on for six months without any progress.  Since they will
not speak to me, I write to them on a regular basis but receive no replies.
How can I re-connect with them?  Have any of you worked through this
kind of situation?  How long does it take?  Thanks for any suggestions.


Eric

*****Ask.  People know.  How the world works is not a secret.*****
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Date:         Fri, 22 Jan 1993 09:08:56 EST
From:         kalrark%phu020.cis.smithkline.com@SMITHKLINE.COM
Subject:      Re: Citing the judges and attorneys

>With respect to:
>
>Some ideas for the work ahead:
>
>1a) Compile a list of "Anti-Fairness" statutes for the area of interest,
>county, state, federal.
>1b) Review the voting records of the individuals responsible.
>1c) Publish those records and distribute to the appropriate support groups
>
>2a) Have people send information into a central clearing house giving such
>   information as:
>         His attorney's name & Bar #
>         Her attorney's name & Bar #
>         Judge's name and court
>         etc.
>         etc.
>         etc.
>3) Same for social workers
>4) Same for mediators
>
>
>This is a good idea. I would need guidance on how to go about getting this
>information, but am willing to do work as time permits (time is at a high
>premium for me, as it probably is for all in midst of divorce/custody.
>
>Unquestionably the need is for organization and mobilization. This is our
>challenge in 1993 and beyond.
>
>Mark
>


Here are some suggestions along the same lines:

1) This effort should be addressed on a national level.  May be
starting from state level,
   but converging into a national project.  ----- UNITY.

2) A SUN or another used workstation be bought to be set up as a GOPHER
type server and
   be available over the Internet.

   Money? --  I pledge upto $1000 towords the purchase of such a machine.  After
 all
                I am a CP (so far) father.

3) This database server can have the data classified into different states.


Once we get going, I am sure that we can find funding sources to expand
such a effort.

Rama Kant Kalra
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Date:         Tue, 26 Jan 1993 16:39:03 U
From:         Oz Barron <oz_barron@PHARLAP.COM>
Subject:      Re: Statistics

                         RE>Statistics
>  Does anyone have any statistics for Massachusetts regarding
>sole custody female vs. male.  etc.

I have understood it to be on the order of 97% female getting physical custody.
 Joint Legal is the norm.  (At least we get that!)
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Date:         Mon, 25 Jan 1993 09:50:27 EST
From:         Byron=Bollas%HQ%Rational@VINES1.RATSYS.COM
Subject:      re: Finally, I got the primary custody.

CONGRATULATIONS, Rama! I'm sure we are alll VERY happy for you and your
children. Good luck!

Byron
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Date:         Tue, 26 Jan 1993 11:16:08 EST
From:         kalrark%phu020.cis.smithkline.com@SMITHKLINE.COM
Subject:      Sharing personal experiences.

>First off, I notice that postings of a personal nature -- about a member's
>specific case -- are in the minority.  I'm wondering if there is a policy on
>this? With regards to my topic, I feel confident that this type of anecdotal
>information is extremely helpful to all parents in custody battles. I hope that
>noone considers such personal postings a waste of bandwith.
>
>Mark
>

Mark, I favor sharing our personal experiences.  Along those lines I have
attempted to do so.  After all we want to learn from each others mistakes and
positive steps.  Given that no two situations are exactly same, but there
can be striking similarities.  Even though this list's intended purpose is not
group counselling, but I have noticed such an  effect through sharing personal
experiences here as well.

Rama Kant Kalra
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From: kkopp@uxh.cso.uiuc.edu (koppenhoefer kyle cramm)
Subject: Congressional E-mail
Summary: is there a list of congressional e-mail addresses
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 15:57:08 GMT
Keywords: congress, email, listing

  The first question is: Is congress on e-mail ?

  If so, where can I find a list of their addresses.  I am particularly
interested in Illinois congressmen.

 
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Date:         Wed, 27 Jan 1993 08:34:10 -0500
From:         David Garrod <garrod@ECN.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Congressional E-mail

    Seems to me one could U.S. Postal service mail a letter to a congressman
and ask for him/her to respond via e-mail, giving only your e-mail
return address.
    He then has the choice of not responding or sending e-mail.
Unless he anonymizes (sorry to invent the word) his mail, you`ve got
a return address, which could be sent out to our brothers and sisters
on this net...not posted for the whole world.

    What do you think?

David K. Garrod

P.S. Of course, one would request the e-mail response on grounds of
     efficiency and speed and for your electronic filing for record
     keeping!

     We should be able to catch a few of the idiots!
crabapple.srv.cs.cmu.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!news.sei.cmu.edu!tas
From: tas@sei.cmu.edu (Terry Ireland)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.free-l
Subject: test
Date: 27 Jan 93 15:13:07 GMT
Organization: Software Engineering Institute

This is a test post.  Please ignore.
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Return-receipt-to: "glover" <glover@msmailgw1.arlut.utexas.edu>
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Date:         Mon, 25 Jan 1993 09:01:24 U
From:         glover <glover@MSMAILGW1.ARLUT.UTEXAS.EDU>
Subject:      RE: 1993: Year of the Divorced Father

Simply a motion, I'll second it.
_______________________________________________________________________________
To: FREE-L%INDYCMS.BitNet@pucc.PRINCETON.EDU
From: Fathers' Rights and Equality Exchange on Fri, Jan 22, 1993 7:15 PM
Subject: 1993: Year of the Divorced Father
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<FREE-L%INDYCMS.BitNet@pucc.PRINCETON.EDU>
From:         Mark Charalambous <mc@VICORP.COM>
Subject:      1993: Year of the Divorced Father
X-To:         free-l@indycms.iupui.edu
To:           Multiple recipients of list FREE-L
<FREE-L%INDYCMS.BitNet@pucc.PRINCETON.EDU>

How about it? It would look good immediately following "Year of the Woman",
don't you think?
For those that might prefer "Year of the Father", or "Year of the NCP",
realize that a "Year of the Divorced Father" would focus attention on issues
relative to just "Fathers" and "NCPs" as a matter of course (laws are always
gender-neitral, and any focusing on the plight of divorced fathers would
automatically shine light on fathers in general).

What does it take to declare a "Year of...?"

--Mark
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Date:         Fri, 22 Jan 1993 14:58:11 U
From:         Oz Barron <oz_barron@PHARLAP.COM>
Subject:      Re: Re- email for Clinton/Go

                         RE>Re: email for Clinton/Gore
I just tried the address again.  I got the same bounced message when it was
pointed out to me that ..@compuserv*E* has an E at the end.  DOOOOOO!  So, I
resent it to ...@compuserve.com and got a message that the box is full.
*SURPRISE*  -not

I will keep trying it at intervals.

-oz
oz@pharlap.com
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Date:         Fri, 22 Jan 1993 10:25:30 -0800
From:         Paul A Vixie <vixie@VIX.COM>
Subject:      Re: Citing the judges and attorneys
              22 Jan 93 09:08:56 EST." <9301221437.AA14293@gw.home.vix.com>

>> 2) A SUN or another used workstation be bought to be set up as a GOPHER
>> type server and be available over the Internet.

anyone with internet access that wants to manage a gopher system
on gw.home.vix.com should send me mail.  i already host annie's
mailing list, i'm quite willing to host the judge/attorney database
if someone else is willing to do the work of managing it.
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Date:         Tue, 26 Jan 1993 21:28:56 PST
From:         Tim Kehres <kehres@IMA.COM>
Subject:      Re: What Message to Email Clinton/Gore ?
              25, 93 9:22 pm

> Being a foreign male graduate student victimized by the insane system
> biased against father, I do not know exactly what clear, loud, yet succint
> message we want to send VIPs.  Can we set up a message pool and
> establish several automated mail handling system nation/world-wide running
> 24 hours a day, 7 days a week ? I am sure we can get a few messages
> through each month if we automate the mail. I am willing to automate
> my email to Clinton/Gore if I have enough input. Any suggestions/advice ?

Seeing how Mr. Gore has been a major proponent of the NREN stuff, perhaps
we should suggest their staff attach themselves directly to the Internet
and do away with these silly Compuserve limitations.   At least that way
they will not be able to hide behind silly excuses that they have a full
mailbox.

On the other hand, the fact that they have any kind of email access is a
good thing, and it would be unfortunate if they elected to pull away from
it's use.  If an automated system could be put in place that would insure
that only one copy of a given message eventually was delivered, this might
be good.  Anything that acted to flood their mailboxes however would most
likely cause more harm to our causes than good.

Best Regards,

Tim Kehres
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Date:         Tue, 26 Jan 1993 15:45:20 U
From:         Oz Barron <oz_barron@PHARLAP.COM>
Subject:      Re: Re- Sharing personal exp

                         RE>Re: Sharing personal experi
eric> My kids are 15 (son) and 18 (daughter, in college away from
eric> home). Support is really a relatively short-term issue. The big
eric> problem is that they are both very angry with me and will not
eric> even speak to me on the telephone. They see me as the bad guy
eric> because I made the decision to end the marriage. I understand
eric> that they are angry and hurt. I understand that they feel a lot
eric> of pressure to be "loyal" to their mother, who they see as a
eric> victim. I have tried to discuss with them the concept that they
eric> should not feel guilty about the ending of the marriage, that
eric> they should not take upon themselves responsibility for 'fixing
eric> the situation', to no avail. I have tried to point out to them
eric> that my relationship to them is separate from my relationship
eric> with their mother. This has gone on for six months without any
eric> progress. Since they will not speak to me, I write to them on a
eric> regular basis but receive no replies. How can I re-connect with
eric> them? Have any of you worked through this kind of situation? How
eric> long does it take? Thanks for any suggestions.
eric>
eric>


Eric:

I am very sorry to hear your story.  My parents divorced when I was older (in
high school) and I too was very angry with my Father.  I wouldn't talk, or say
a word when he came by the house.  Nothing.  Part of this was my immaturity.
Part of this was his fault, part of this was my Mother's poisoning of my
feelings towards him.

Time went by.  A lot of it.  I grew up, he got better (Long term alcoholic) and
I moved 1100 miles away.  As time has gone on, my Father and I now have a very
good relationship.  It's not one based on frequent communication, but on mutual
respect.  I care about my Father very much and feel bad for what we went
through.  I think we had to though.  (Odd postscript, my parents remarried.
I'm still closer to my Father, even though I talk to my Mother all the time.
Life is strange, yes?)

My point?  Have faith.  Try to look to the future through the pain.  All I can
say is be there for them.  Don't give up.  At some point, they'll need you and
there you'll be.  Hang in.  We're all with you!

-Oz

"We're all the same schmuck"  -Lenny Bruce
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Date:         Fri, 22 Jan 1993 12:15:21 -0500
From:         David Garrod <garrod@ECN.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject:      Guardian Ad Litem advice

Here`s my 2 cents.

     I personally would not state anything positive about the x2b.

I know the instinct is to be fair and un-biased.  But why aid the enemy
and in the adversarial system the x2b is the enemy.

How I would behave in front of the children is an entirely different matter
from how to behave in the court context.  In front of the children I see
nothing wrong in praising the mother (even if you think she is a real bitch).

If you say anything positive about the mother to the GAL or in court, it will
come back to haunt you.....as she gets custody.

At the same time I would not go overboard criticising the mother....just a
few comments about lack of love for the children or lack of ability in whatever
she is not good at.

I would spend most of the time stressing your own good points.

David Garrod,

School of Hard Knocks  $40K + on attorneys and counting.
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Date:         Mon, 25 Jan 1993 16:19:24 U
From:         Oz Barron <oz_barron@PHARLAP.COM>
Subject:      Re: Sexual Discrimination

                         RE>Sexual Discrimination
AMEN!

You're right!  It seems only logical and fair that we take this step.  I mean,
we wouldn't want for there to be any sexual discrimination going on, right?

It seems so simple (in theory) that I am skeptical.  Will it really work?  Can
it be done?  To whom do I send my money (such that it is) to support this idea?
 Should we get the ACLU involved?  NOW (wouldn't that be great!)?

-Oz
oz@pharlap.com
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Date:         Thu, 21 Jan 1993 10:18:43 -0500
From:         David Garrod <garrod@ECN.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: RE: WIS. CS LAWs - Citing the judge

Re: lists of biased people.

     I believe it is appropriate to keep lists of incompetent AND good
attorneys and judges, and also to keep voting records of legislators.

That is precisely what the best father`s rights, children`s rights
organizations do.
However I believe this is only necessary on a local basis, not nation-wide.
(With possible exception of voting behavior of federal legislators)

     Parents And Childrens Equality (P.A.C.E.) has been keeping attorney
lists for about 6 years and hands out forms to all new members to give
comments about judges, their attorney and their ex`s attorney.
     P.A.C.T. of Lafayette has done the same.

     The Indiana Council for Children`s Rights keeps voting records and also
writes to legislators on a regular basis with position papers, asking
them to explain why they voted the way they did on certain bills. The I.C.C.R.
has also asked all prosecutors their position on enforcing the law regarding
visitation denial.   We are about to follow up this again to those prosecutors
that did not reply the first time.

     However, I cannot see how much of this information would be of any
use to anyone outside the state.  I do believe, very strongly,  in letter
writing, asking people to explain their positions, etc.  Note, I say asking
people to explain their positions, not just making comments about their
positions (that comes later after the idiots fail to explain).  You would
be surprised (or maybe not) how asking someone to explain their positions
has more influence on their positions than criticizing the position. (Makes
them think, I guess.)
     I also believe that any bad representation by an attorney or biased
judgment from a judge should be complained against to the state.  We have
had very little success in getting any response from judges.  That still
does not stop getting letters into newspapers asking and criticizing
publicly.

David Garrod
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Date:         Tue, 26 Jan 1993 16:01:20 -0500
From:         David Garrod <garrod@ECN.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject:      Statistics

     Does anyone have any statistics for Massachusetts regarding
sole custody female vs. male.  etc.

? ?
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Date:         Wed, 27 Jan 1993 11:56:30 U
From:         glover <glover@MSMAILGW1.ARLUT.UTEXAS.EDU>
Subject:      RE: N.O.M.

Can someone post the address(es) of N.O.M. ?
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