HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: abrodnik@watdragon.uwaterloo.ca
Subject: Who is (was) right? (Was: B-H is NO place for IWN)
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 19:18:09 GMT

Excuse my ignorance please, , but somehow I don't understand
something. Namely:

In article <192f1pINNk30@pollux.usc.edu> aabdalla@pollux.usc.edu (Ahmed Abd-Allah) writes:
>In article <1992Sep14.153449.6354@sol.ctr.columbia.edu> deniz@mandolin.ctr.columbia.edu (Deniz Akkus) writes:
>>
>>fought against the Turks on the side of the British in WW1.  Never mind
>>that they rebelled against the Khalifa.  So much for Islamic

			[ some stuff deleted ]

>You speak the truth - but only historically.  Religiously, the Qur'an condemns
>disunity.  The Prophet has specifically condemned the Muslim who is apathetic
>to the sufferings of other Muslims.  The sin is worse as the amount of 
>responsibility grows, i.e. the political leaders of the Muslim countries 
>are the ones most accountible.

If I understand correctly, the Qur'an condemns a "disunity". But to
get into a state of disunity, there has to be two sides. Each of them
has its own "right". How to reach unity now? Which sight is (more)
right than the others? If we return to WWI example, why would
Turks/Arabs be more correct than the others? Can somebody explain me
this, please?

Best regards,

Andrej
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Date: Saturday, 12 Sep 1992 18:35:59 CDT
From: <U15231@uicvm.uic.edu>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
Subject: Re: Bosnia's recent successes
 <alanf.716017533@bruce.cs.monash.edu.au>
 <1992Sep9.160223.24443@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu>

In article <1992Sep9.160223.24443@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu>, jngreen@nyx.cs.du.edu
(Joel Green) says:
>
>In article <alanf.716017533@bruce.cs.monash.edu.au> alanf@cs.monash.edu.au    n
>(Ala
>Grant Finlay) writes:
>>mmokhtar@attmail.com (Mazen Mokhtar) writes:
>>
>>>  After suffering major defeats, the Bosnians appear to be scoring some
>>>successes against the Serbs. Does anyone have the details?
>>
>>to hold onto.  Sorry to be so pessimistic but the Serbs have got the old
>>Yugoslav defense system behind them.  Even the UN would have a hard time
>>defeating them (remember Vietnam).
>
>Of course the UN would have a hard time defeating them .. they are a peace
>keeping force who only carry light machine guns.  If a force was sent to
>defeat them however, I'm sure it wouldn't be too much trouble defeating
>them (remember Iraq).
>
>

Why not simply lift the UN arm embargo against Bosnia-Hercegovina and arm
Bosnian forces. Bosnians are willing to fight and if they will be equiped
like Serbian criminals nobody will be needed to protect them.

But the UN policy against Bosnians is the most cynical one in recent
times. They fear "more violence" but I think there are some other agendas
here.


Zlatko



Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
From: fes9s@faraday.clas.Virginia.EDU (Frank Erick Sellin)
Subject: Re: Bosnia's recent successes
Organization: University of Virginia
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 14:35:12 GMT

In article <ivan.716057885@stat> ivan@ph.albany.edu (Ivan Auger) writes:
>jngreen@nyx.cs.du.edu (Joel Green) writes:
>
>>In article <alanf.716017533@bruce.cs.monash.edu.au> alanf@cs.monash.edu.au (Alan Grant Finlay) writes:
>>>mmokhtar@attmail.com (Mazen Mokhtar) writes:
>>>
>>>>  After suffering major defeats, the Bosnians appear to be scoring some
>>>>successes against the Serbs. Does anyone have the details?
>>>
>>>to hold onto.  Sorry to be so pessimistic but the Serbs have got the old
>>>Yugoslav defense system behind them.  Even the UN would have a hard time
>>>defeating them (remember Vietnam).
>
>>Of course the UN would have a hard time defeating them .. they are a peace
>>keeping force who only carry light machine guns.  If a force was sent to
>>defeat them however, I'm sure it wouldn't be too much trouble defeating
>>them (remember Iraq).
>
>This is an absurd comparison.  It is very different to occupy a country
>and then try to keep a presence there - the correct analogy is indeed
>"remember vietnam or 2nd world war".  The problem is that the Serbs live
>in the countryside (since they are mostly peasants), and the Muslims
>leave in the cities - thus even thinking about dividing Bosnia into a
>muslim region and a serb region is very difficult, there is no clear
>line.
>
>What nobody says, is what about the rights of the Serbs in Bosnia to
>self-determination - just as Bosnia's majority of muslims and croats
>were encouraged to declare independence from Serbia.  This does
>not imply that I approve of the Serbian occupation and their actions
>in Bosnia - on the contrary.  Neither do I approve of some of the
>muslim actions in Bosnia - such as firing to Serb forces next to
>UN headquarters in Sarajevo which puts UN personnel in danger
>(I have a "selfish" interest in this since my mother is deputy civil
>chief and chief legal counsel with the UN peacekeeping forces).
>
>Ivan Auger
>ivan@stat.ph.albnay.edu
Right on, Mr. Auger. Vietnam is an analogous comparison.  Yugoslavia, if
anywhere, virtually perfected the modern guerrilla war.  Mountainous, with
access to the sea and interested parties to all sides who can send
supplies, Yugoslavia (or rather, what's left of it) can boast a more
effective record in the Second World War per capita than just about
any other country I can think of.  These people tied down 35 German
divisions.  Add to that the fact that Tito transformed Bosnia-Hercegovina
into a thousand military stockpile facilities of staggering amounts of
stuff, in preparation for any post -1948 Soviet threat, and we have
a virtual hornet's nest here. There is not going to be any clear and
flat terrain turkey shoot a la Iraq.

Frank Sellin, University of Virginia.

P.S. The centuries old ethnic conflicts are a proposition that
goes without saying ...


Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
From: svedja@lysator.liu.se (Dejan Ilic)
Subject: Re: Bosnia's recent successes
Organization: Lysator Academic Computer Society, Linkoping University, Sweden
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 12:33:16 GMT

I`m a Serb interesen in some things..

I would like to get a comment about following

1) The Muslims attack on UN soldiers (Two french soldiers kiled)
2) The Muslims attack useing UN positions (Ukrainian soldiers wounded)
3) Wouldn`t the muslims attack the serbs if an peace-making force would attack the serb positions. I would use the situation if I was a officer !!! Then the peace-making army wouldn't be peace-making but THE OPPOSITE by putting gasoline on the fire .
4) Why does everybody refere to the muslims as Bosnians when most of the soldiers/fighting forces are poeple born and living in Bosnia-Hrecegovina. In that meaning everybodu in the three biggest parties could be called Bosnians.
5) Why did EC recognise Bosnia-Hercegovina when they knew it would bring a war to the country. The breakup process in B-H had already started in an non-fighting way with talks between Serbs/Croats/Muslims. By recocnising B-H as one country the Muslim president got all the power over WHOLE B-H by EC way of seeing. Then the Muslim leader didn't have a reason to compromise exept to remove the danger of war.
6) Where does the Muslims get the arms for the more and more frequent counter attacs in sarajevo ?? And why does the world blame serbs for fighting there even when Muslims attack ? I've heard noone saying to the Muslims to stop fighting in sarajevo.

Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna,soc.culture.african
From: avrat@engin.umich.edu (Ali Kodal)
Subject: Re: B-H is NO place for IWN
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 92 00:56:36 EDT
Organization: University of Michigan Engineering, Ann Arbor

In article <1992Sep14.161632.7214@ee.eng.ohio-state.edu> rached@sample.eng.ohio-state.edu (Rached Zantout) writes:
>You have to differentiate between Muslims and the so called "Islamic Countries".
>Those countries you call Islamic Countries are ruling their people with other



You have to differentiate so called muslim who they think they are muslims
because their birth certificate say so . Some them here criticize the
muslims in Bosnia without making any help. it is sad.

Ali Kodal
.


Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
From: hayes@granite.ma30.bull.com (Patrick Hayes)
Subject: Re: Bosnia's recent successes
Organization: Bull HN Informations Systems Inc.
Date: 11 Sep 92 08:52:34 GMT

arnsenad@me.utoronto.ca (Senad Arnautovic) writes:
>Vietnam is indeed analogous comparison with the analogy:
Ok so far...

>Bosnia freedom fighter = Vietkong and Serbians = Americans.
>And history has shown who won despite huge American over-power.
Excuse me??? How did you come up with this given that Serbs in BH are the RURAL
population, and the Muslims the citydwellers! The present military situation
reflects this as well: the Serbs control much of the countryside/highground,
while the Muslims control the cities/valleys. Looking back on Vietnam, for as 
long as they were present, american (and allied - we weren't the only ones
there, people) forces controlled every urban center larger than a small town,
while the VK roamed the countryside/jungles/marshes.

>So, in this Balkan war, nacionalist Serbians will eventually
>loose against Bosnians (Muslims, Croats, loyal Serbs) despite all
>former Yugoslav army help in weapons and manpower,
They've already lost. So have the "Bosnians (Muslims, Croats, loyal Serbs)".
No one is going to "win" this war, neither side has the resources to force the
other into submission quickly. It has degraded into a mutual guerilla war.

>since they are aggressors and they have taken Bosnian land.
               ^prime
recent events have shown that no-one is lily white anymore...

>Just like Germans  who occupied Yugoslavia and people (Serbians, Croats,
>Muslims, etc) fought them because Bosnia is not a German land, so
Simple huh? How about the Ottoman invaders, still simple?

>are Chetniks (nationalist Serbs) being fought, because Bosnia
>is not Serbian land either. Just give the Bosnians the wright weapons
>and no western military intervention is needed.
*Callous mode on*
International society doesn't really care who wins as long as the problem(*) is
confined within the pre-breakup borders. BH is not percieved to be the big
danger, Kosovo/Macedoine is. Conflict in these two could pull in Albania or
Greece.
*Callous mode off*

Pat
(*) Problem: combat,refugees,pictures of starvation/slaughter, etc...
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
From: abrodnik@watdragon.uwaterloo.ca (Andrej Brodnik (Andy))
Subject: Re: B-H is NO place for IWN
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 23:38:14 GMT

In article <1992Sep14.213252.12331@cbfsb.cb.att.com>, mmokhtar@attmail.com (Mazen Mokhtar) writes:
> In article <1992Sep14.180231.9427@sol.ctr.columbia.edu> deniz@mandolin.ctr.columbia.edu (Deniz Akkus) writes:
> 
> >  Even in the absence of civil war, I don't believe that they are going to
> >have it as easy as say Iran (the only country in the list you have with a
> >predominantly Islamic population)
> 
>   Each of Albania, Lebanon, Iran and Bosnia has a majority Muslim population.

Hm, Muslims represent a relative majority of population in B&H. I.e.
there is less than 50% of those whose nationality is Muslim (and even
much less of those with muslim faith).

> >I again see nothing in history to
> >believe that Shiites and Sunnis would unite against Christians.  
> 
>   Look again. This is not a Shia vs Sunni issue. The issue is innocent
> Bosnians being killed and displaced because they are Muslim.

Hm, does that mean war against Croatians as well? In this case Muslims
are minority in B&H.

> >No it is not.  I also care about Bosnian Muslims.  However, I care about
> >all the civilians whose lives are disrupted by needless and pointless
> >civil war, be they Muslim, Croat, or Serbian.  For it takes only a few
> >callous people to start and foment a war.
> 
>   In this conflict, there is a clear aggressor and a clear victim. Support
> the victim. If you won't, then at least let the victim defend himself, don't
> join the aggressor by condemning self-defense.

Yes, but victims are also Croats and, nevertheless, also Serbs. Do you
know what is the number of Serbs still in Sarajevo, who are dieing
under shells of their compatriots? It's not that simple as it seems.

Best regards,

Andrej

Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
From: cicic@cc.uow.edu.au (muris cicic)
Subject: long live
Keywords: Bosnia
Organization: University Of Wollongong
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 92 02:00:13 GMT

Dear Bosnians and Herzegovinians,

long live independant and sovereign B&H.  Don't be frustrated and desperate,
we will survive and prosper.  Our fight will be long and hard, but justice
and humanity are with us.  Therefore, we will win.  Fight each of you as hard
as you can, fight ignorance, misunderstanding, false interpretations.  Don't
call on history, ethnic origins, myths and grandparents: call humanity,
democracy, right for self-determination and universalism.  The killers and 
criminals, that have attacked us, will defeat themselves.  We have to be 
patient enough, we can't get loose anything more.  

Keep going and fighting.  Don't waste your time with Serbian fascists, the only
way for survival is fight them.  They may destroy all, but our spirit stays.

OVO JE RAT PAPAKA PROTIV RAJE - NIKAD TO NE ZABORAVITE.

Muris Cicic
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
From: mmilicevic@spike.psc.scarolina.edu
Subject: Re: B-H is NO place for IWN
Reply-To: mmilicevic@spike.psc.scarolina.edu
Organization: Univ of S Carolina College of Sci and Math
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 92 02:10:33 GMT

Ridha, sorry but you don't understand the issue. I'm from Sarajevo where I
lived for 28 beautiful years, my family is there, all my friends are there...

You just don't understand.

MLADEN
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
From: abrodnik@watdragon.uwaterloo.ca
Subject: Re: B-H is NO place for IWN
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 15:39:39 GMT

In article <1992Sep14.052956.6276@ee.eng.ohio-state.edu> rached@blanc.eng.ohio-state.edu (rached) writes:
>
>While you are trying to divide Muslims
>Serbs are wiping them out indiscriminantly. All the above rhethoric did not serve 
>you.

And what if _you_ are trying to divide them? What if this is the fact?
IMHO, and my based on my personal experience with number of Muslims
this seems much better observation.

>If you had defined yourself as a Bosnian I would have 
>respected your ideas but to take the name of a religion and leave its basic 
>principles ? that's cheating.

Hm, do you have a copyright on word "MUSLIM"? Or is it copyright on
word "muslim"? What about "Muslim"? Doesn't this remind you on some
other dispute concerning Macedonia? Role of which side are you
picking?

>You are either a Muslim and thus our brother and we have to help and protect
>you or you are a Bosnian and thus we will see if it is in our INTERSET to 
>help you, otherwise we sit and watch like the west is doing.

Aha, in other words, if you are not muslim, go to hell and I don't
care what will happen to you. Thank you very much for explanation of
your humanity, or better "muslimanity". I'm only wondering what would
think in such case poor people from Bangdesh (for example) say if
international society would think if the similar way...

Regards,

Andrej



Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
From: svedja@lysator.liu.se (Dejan Ilic)
Subject: Re: Bosnia's recent successes
Organization: Lysator Academic Computer Society, Linkoping University, Sweden
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 15:36:05 GMT

<U15231@uicvm.uic.edu> writes:

>In article <1992Sep9.160223.24443@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu>, jngreen@nyx.cs.du.edu
>(Joel Green) says:

>Why not simply lift the UN arm embargo against Bosnia-Hercegovina and arm
>Bosnian forces. Bosnians are willing to fight and if they will be equiped
>like Serbian criminals nobody will be needed to protect them.

Why not lift the embargo from all parties in the war and let them kill each other. That way you would remove the question for at least 50-100 years..
-- Do you realy think it works that way ? And don't you think it would make even a bigger disaster.

>But the UN policy against Bosnians is the most cynical one in recent
>times. They fear "more violence" but I think there are some other agendas
>here.

I think they are trying to stop the conflict in an neutral way. They have allready destroyed Serbian economy if you would feel better that way.
>Zlatko



Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
From: ivan@ph.albany.edu (Ivan Auger)
Subject: Re: Bosnia's recent successes
Organization: University of NY at Albany
Date:  9 Sep 92 16:58:05 GMT

jngreen@nyx.cs.du.edu (Joel Green) writes:

>In article <alanf.716017533@bruce.cs.monash.edu.au> alanf@cs.monash.edu.au (Alan Grant Finlay) writes:
>>mmokhtar@attmail.com (Mazen Mokhtar) writes:
>>
>>>  After suffering major defeats, the Bosnians appear to be scoring some
>>>successes against the Serbs. Does anyone have the details?
>>
>>to hold onto.  Sorry to be so pessimistic but the Serbs have got the old
>>Yugoslav defense system behind them.  Even the UN would have a hard time
>>defeating them (remember Vietnam).

>Of course the UN would have a hard time defeating them .. they are a peace
>keeping force who only carry light machine guns.  If a force was sent to
>defeat them however, I'm sure it wouldn't be too much trouble defeating
>them (remember Iraq).

This is an absurd comparison.  It is very different to occupy a country
and then try to keep a presence there - the correct analogy is indeed
"remember vietnam or 2nd world war".  The problem is that the Serbs live
in the countryside (since they are mostly peasants), and the Muslims
leave in the cities - thus even thinking about dividing Bosnia into a
muslim region and a serb region is very difficult, there is no clear
line.

What nobody says, is what about the rights of the Serbs in Bosnia to
self-determination - just as Bosnia's majority of muslims and croats
were encouraged to declare independence from Serbia.  This does
not imply that I approve of the Serbian occupation and their actions
in Bosnia - on the contrary.  Neither do I approve of some of the
muslim actions in Bosnia - such as firing to Serb forces next to
UN headquarters in Sarajevo which puts UN personnel in danger
(I have a "selfish" interest in this since my mother is deputy civil
chief and chief legal counsel with the UN peacekeeping forces).

Ivan Auger
ivan@stat.ph.albnay.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
From: mad-2@kub.nl (C. Wekx)
Subject: Re: Bosnia's recent successes
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 92 16:12:41 GMT
Organization: Tilburg University, Tilburg, The Netherlands

kurwa anyat!

-- 
"Uta'lom az ege'sz huszadik sza'zadot" La'szlo' Lugosi/Fero' Nagy

Constantijn Wekx
email should be addressed to: mad-2@kub.nl
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
From: murthy@ssdws13.asl.dl.nec.com (Vasudev Murthy)
Subject: Re: Bosnia's recent successes
Organization: NEC America, Inc. Irving, Texas
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 16:43:49 GMT

In article <GHt-Km_@engin.umich.edu> avrat@engin.umich.edu (Ali Kodal) writes:
>In article <1633@lysator.liu.se> svedja@lysator.liu.se (Dejan Ilic) writes:
>>All have the right to get weapons when the feel threat by some other side but nobody should use humanitarian transport to get arms.
>>
>>Do you think that simmular things that you described didn't happend with the role attacker/victim reversed.
>
>
>I think smuggling weapons is OK if the UN (which is tool of emperialist
>west) puts embargo to you
>
>Ali Kodal

Really? What are you doing here in the Imperialist West?
WHy not go back to the Islamic Society you came from? Oh,
"to get an education"? Then you'll go back and fight the
evil West?


Vasudev


-- 
Vasudev Murthy             Any opinions expressed are strictly  
murthy@asl.dl.nec.com      my own  and have nothing to do with
(214) 518-5031             Advanced Switching Lab, NEC America, Inc.
1525 Walnut Hill Lane Irving TX 75038
From: aabdalla@pollux.usc.edu (Ahmed Abd-Allah)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
Subject: Re: B-H is NO place for IWN
Date: 14 Sep 92 16:36:09 GMT
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: pollux.usc.edu

In article <1992Sep14.153449.6354@sol.ctr.columbia.edu> deniz@mandolin.ctr.columbia.edu (Deniz Akkus) writes:
>>It is better for you to be part of a Muslim Ummah than to be part of a nationality
>>that has no nation. 
>

[stuff deleted]

>I don't see why the 'Islamic Brotherhood' is that interested in Bosnia.

Partly because Bosnia is interested in the Islamic Brotherhood.  Here in LA
the Bosnian community is maintaining a very high profile at many Islamic
events of which I have personally attended two.  The first was a joint event
with Bangladeshi Muslims.  What do Bangladesh and Bosnia have in common?  The
second event I attended was on Bosnia (with ample reference to Albania as 
well), Lebanon, and Iran.  What do Bosnia, Albania, Lebanon, and Iran have in
common?

The answer to both questions is that Muslims are the plurality of the
population in these countries.

>And I do not buy the argument that it is feeling for the muslim
>brothers.  Being part of an Ummah did not work for the Arabs when they

The Arabs were fools then and they still are for the most part.  Since when
is chopping off your own head a smart thing to do?  Incidentally, I am an
Arab (Egyptian).  Please try and justify the Arabs' actions in WW1 as being
Islamic - you cannot: the Qur'an orders us to stay united and we broke that
order.

>fought against the Turks on the side of the British in WW1.  Never mind
>that they rebelled against the Khalifa.  So much for Islamic

No, NOT never mind: since you understand that they 'rebelled' against the
Khalifah, then surely you understand that they were wrong to do so.

>brotherhood.   
>>You are either a Muslim and thus our brother and we have to help and protect
>>you 
>This is hypocritical at best.  I could come up with a zillion examples

[good examples deleted]

You speak the truth - but only historically.  Religiously, the Qur'an condemns
disunity.  The Prophet has specifically condemned the Muslim who is apathetic
to the sufferings of other Muslims.  The sin is worse as the amount of 
responsibility grows, i.e. the political leaders of the Muslim countries 
are the ones most accountible.

>Spare me.
>Deniz Akkus deniz@ctr.columbia.edu

It is a depressing life today for Muslims (and I don't know if you are Muslim).
The absence of a Khalifah puts all the Muslims 'in sin' to the extent of their
ability to change the situation - including me (so I am not fingerpointing).
But just because some of my forefathers had the blind audacity to destroy the
already weak unity the Muslims enjoyed does not mean that I am absolved from
caring about other Muslims around the globe, and from trying to restore the
unity to the best of my ability (admittedly small :-).

One last innocent reason for caring about Bosnian Muslims:  I have found them
to be just like other Muslims in that they make very good friends...  Is that
a bad thing?

Ahmed A. Abd-Allah