From: jpsb@NeoSoft.com (Jim Shirreffs)
Subject: Re: Your own words, of course != bigot
Organization: NeoSoft Communications Services -- (713) 684-5900
Distribution: usa, world
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 00:06:02 GMT

In article <1992Dec30.173753.11993@ux1.cts.eiu.edu> cfthb@ux1.cts.eiu.edu (Howard Black) writes:
>In article <C01x89.MC1@NeoSoft.com> jpsb@NeoSoft.com (Jim Shirreffs) writes:
>>
>>Do you get the feeling that I disapprove of homosexual sex?  
>>Does that make me a bigot?  I don't think so. It is my
>
>    I do.
I guess we will simply disagree here
>
>>contention that anal intercouse is WRONG, men butt fucking other men is
>>not a cute idiosyncrasy. It is a serious pervertion of the human body, 
>>and the human soul, both in form and function. I cann't believe that 
>
>    You say.  Who cares?  It doesn't affect you, so mind your own business.

	This is a good point, and I intend to do just that, I am tried of 
	being flamed, the issue seems to be to emotional for rational 
	discussion. I intend to leave this thread, I just wanted to answer 
	Susin's post. I'll answer any redirects to this one, but I am 
	tired of this little war. Everyone has had thier say, including me.
>
>>society is even debating this issue. If homosexual sex is simply abnormal
>>when how come we don't see our dogs (male) and cats (male) giving one 
>>another head? 
>
>    I have seen dogs and other animals, especially monkeys, do just that.
	Really? I never have, but monkey see monkey do.
>
>>If I am correct that homosexual sex is wrong am I still am bigot?
>
>    Since it's a value judgement, the question has no basis.

	True those that disagree with me will call me a bigot 
	those that don't won't.
>
>>If homosexual sex is not wrong then it should have the same moral
>>standing as heterosexual sex, then what? Group sex, sex with animals
>>sex with dead people, sex with children, etc. If you are going to break
>
>    Grouping gay sex with these things is a very old tactic.  Don't do it.
>It makes you look dumb.
	I didn't think that the grouping was fair to the gay community
	but my knowlegde of gays is slight, left over from childhood,
	I'll withdraw all but the group sex. If I'm wrong I'm sure you
	will correct me.
>
>>a 2000 year old precident, you better have a very good reason. And you
>
>    "Precident [sic]"?  I hope you're not referring to a specific religion,
>or its tired old handbook, since the world is comprised of many different
>religions and beliefs, and I'm sure you're too open-minded to assume that
>yours is "the only way".
>
>>had better be prepared to demostrate the correctness of your view.
>>Simply calling me a bigot does nothing for your argument. Ive been called
>>alot worse. Prove to me that butt fucking is a legitimate expression of 
> ^^^^^^^^^^
>    Not surprising.
>
>>love between two men. Prove to me that society will not be harmed by the
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>    OK.  It occurs untold times each day between male couples who love each
>other.
> 
>>further erosion of our J/C moral The issue here is not tolerance, 
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>    "Our" J/C moral??!!  How dare you speak for anyone other than yourself.
>Get a grip and mind your own business.  You J/C types are often really
>pushy and self-righteous, you know that?

I might be wrong but I thought that most Americans shared a J/C morality
>
>>homosexual have acheived a great deal of tolerance towards thier life
>>style. Not satisfied with the tolerance society has towards gays, they
>>now want thier deviant acts legitismized. Well your are simply asking 
>
>    Yeah, society has lots of tolerance. :-(  I won't waste my time
>pointing out the obvious to the closed-minded.
>
I am not nearly as closed minded as you think, when I joined this 
discussion I tried to communicate my views and my beliefs *without*
deliberate insult to anyone. I was radicalized by the barrage of flames
which came my way. No fun. I reacted in kind. But back to the point
It is my understanding that gays are not persecuted in this country,
the only institutional barrior that I know of the is ban in the military.
Am I wrong? 

>>to much of this old straight conservative. I will listen, but don't 
>>expect me to roll over.
>
>    I don't know what you mean by "roll over".  However, some
>open-mindedness and/or "let-and-let-live" thoughts would be nice, esp. from
>(I assume) a Xian.
>
What is an Xian?

How about a little open mindedness for my beliefs? I am not
afraid to admit I'm wrong, I do it all the time :( but I will not
be hammered into submision. Address my concerns in an intelligent
manner and you just might make a friend out of me.

My concern via vie this issue is that it will contribute to the further
decline of ethical standards in this country. Our (sorry) morals are 
laughtable. Practically evryone I know cheats on thier expence reports,
practically everyone I know make false insurance claims, practically
everyone I know has commited adultry, we all lye, most cheat and alot
of us steal. People call me stupid because I don't do most of the above!
We as a soceity *need* axioms to base our behavior on. I use J/C morality,
I'm sure you also have a ethical standard, proably not to different from
mine. Lensman argues that behavior should be based on law, I argue that
law should be based on the shared values of those ruled by the laws. 
I also argue that those shared values should be pasted on to future
generations. What you are asking me to do is to place on the same moral
plan any two people that declar themselves a couple as I would a married
heterosexual couple. I have a problem with that.
>
>-- 
>   ******************************************************************
>     Howard Black                             cfthb@ux1.cts.eiu.edu
>     Department of Chemistry                  Eastern Illinois Univ. 


jim shirreffs

i speak for myself and only myself
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc