HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: bweiss@cs.arizona.edu (Beth Weiss)
Newsgroups: misc.kids
Subject: Tolerance (Re: 20/20 and Spanking)
Date: 9 Nov 92 22:04:32 GMT
Organization: U of Arizona, CS Dept, Tucson

jj, curmudgeon and all-around grouch) writes:
|> I have my differences with David's position, too, but I must say
|> that he shows tolerance for others viewpoints.  You are simply
|> OBLIGATED to have the same tolerance unless you are God and he is
|> a believer in your religion..

Nobody is _obligated_ to have tolerance for another's views if
that person feels those views are morally wrong.  

There are people who feel it is appropriate to discipline
children by hitting them with the buckle end of a belt.  Should
we tolerate that?  There are people who think proper sex
education is  best done by having sex with their child.  I don't
think we should tolerate that just because it's their "viewpoint".

I find David's position to be intolerable--he advocates teaching
obedience by violence.  I don't think my major goal as a parent
is to teach obedience--responsibility, perhaps, but not
obedience.  And I don't think parents should be teaching violence
at all.

--Beth Weiss
bweiss@cs.arizona.edu
From: dlin@weber.ucsd.edu (Diane Lin)
Newsgroups: misc.kids
Subject: Re:  20/20 and spanking
Summary: rebellion as healthy part of growing up
Date: 13 Nov 92 02:58:01 GMT
Organization: University of California, San Diego
NNTP-Posting-Host: weber.ucsd.edu

In article <1duqhkINNkqi@network.ucsd.edu> ivy@chem.ucsd.edu (Ivy Blumberg) writes:
>In article <1d6s18INN9uh@network.ucsd.edu> dlin@weber.ucsd.edu (Diane Lin) writes:
>>In article <1757@wtcp.DaytonOH.NCR.COM> pleeper@wtcp.DaytonOH.NCR.COM (Paulette Leeper) writes:
>>>In article <9211020046.AA23462@fieser.brynmawr.edu>
>>>chirlian@fieser.brynmawr.edu (L.E. Chirlian) writes:
>>>>
>>sometimes think that if people actually understood more about child
>>development, and the incredibly healthy aspect of rebellion, they
>>would be less inclined to take such behavior personally.  

>     Can you explain how rebellion can be "healthy"?

Well, Lisa wrote the above, but I'll give it a shot, since I believe
wholeheartedly in that opinion.  Basically, rebellion is a way for
children to assert their independence, and to separate from their
parents.  The form that the rebellion takes is another matter
entirely, and some forms are clearly not healthy (i.e. burning down
the family home in the middle of the night).  

>>On the one extreme, there is the authoritarian household, and on the
>>other, there is the permissive household, with little or no rules to
>>guide the children's behavior.  The permissive household also does
>>not serve children's long-term needs well, because the absence of
>>rules provides none of the structure children need (and crave, to an
>>extent) to learn acceptable from unacceptable behavior.

>It sounds like you are assuming anyone who spanks their child
>is the extreme authoritarian, how do you support this assumption?

For starters, the whole summary of the three major types of family
structures (authoritarian, permissive and authoritative/democratic),
is not my own personal theory.  Furthermore, I make no such
assumptions about spankers in my summary, so please don't read into
it more than is there.  

[rest of article deleted]


-- 
Diane C. Lin			"Live now; make *now* always the
dlin@weber.ucsd.edu	         most precious time.  Now will 
(Dylan's mom, 23 months)	 never come again." (ST:TNG)
From: twriter3@pencom.com (Denise Fischer)
Newsgroups: misc.kids
Subject: Re: How to help the "oops" of a family...
Date: 10 Nov 92 16:43:35 GMT
Reply-To: twriter3@pencom.com (Denise Fischer)
Organization: Pencom Software

In article <1dnigmINNasd@matt.ksu.ksu.edu> bets@matt.ksu.ksu.edu (Beth  
Schwindt) writes:
> Any suggestions on how to help Em deal with the constant teasing, and  
how
> to help convince Billy and Jo that their sister isn't a ready-made
> verbal punching bag and that she does have feelings?
> 
Continuing to refer to Em as the "oops" of the family continues
to perpetuate the problem. Unplanned or planned doesn't change
your rank in society and a family talk with Billy, Jo, mom,
dad, and Em would probably help remind everyone that Em isn't
a "ready-made verbal punching bag," nor is she any less a part
of the family by not being planned.

I hope mom and dad don't put up with the constant teasing from
Billy and Jo. Maybe they need to have this pointed out to them
by someone who sees the situation (like a trusted babysitter).
I know my feelings would be hurt if someone continually
referred to me either as an "oops" or an "accident," just imagine
what that does to a little kid!   :-(


Denise Fischer (Single mom to Ingrid, my wonderful surprise)
twriter3@pencom.com
Newsgroups: misc.kids
From: ishizaki@hplabsz.hpl.hp.com (Audrey Ishizaki)
Subject: Re: a new fun thread??
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 23:23:33 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Laboratories Palo Alto,CA

re: children not looking like their parents

I am of japanese descent and my husband is of mongrel european descent.
Our son (14 mo) has fair skin, grey/green eyes and reddish brown hair.

for one of our first well-baby visits, my pediatrician remarked to me,
"you know, nobody would think he's your son!".

when one of my relatives saw my son for the first time, he said, "look,
a haku-jin baby!" ("haku-jin" is japanese for "white person").

And I *do* worry about not being recognized as his mother (because I'm
asian, and he doesn't look asian).  I just don't know what to do about
it.  Actually, my husband's last name is Brown, mine is Ishizaki, so we
hyphenated our son's name (Ishizaki-Brown), partly so either of us would
be recognized as his parents.

audrey ishizaki
Newsgroups: misc.kids
From: AMY.UHRBACH@OFFICE.WANG.COM ("Amy Uhrbach")
Subject: Washing non-washable stuffed animals
Organization: Mail to News Gateway at Wang Labs
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 15:24:14 GMT

We did wash some that said surface wash only (got desperate after bouts with
dust allergies and a beloved Spot).  We washed only animals, in warm water,
short delicate cycle, then dried on low.  He turned out great!!  We DID have
an extra new Spot on hand just in case we ruined him...

Don't wash the toys with very long hair, however; they get all matted (our
lion's mane).
From: bloch@wupost.wustl.edu (Charlene Bloch Abrams)
Newsgroups: misc.kids
Subject: Re: large 2YO, large problems
Date: 6 Nov 1992 08:14:52 -0600
Organization: Washington University, St. Louis
Distribution: usa
NNTP-Posting-Host: informatics.wustl.edu

In article <1dbsajINN92k@early-bird.think.com> dari@think.com (Dorothy Whitehouse) writes:
>
>Now I understand that he is still too young to
>really understand the concept of sharing and with his size it is pretty
>likely that people expect a bit more from him because he looks so much

I don't think 2 years old is too ypung to understand sharing. I have a
2-yo who has been in a daycare centre since she was 8 weeks old who does
understand (though may not always implement!) sharing. Start him on the
concept of "turns". get a glass of water and sip, saying "my turn". Then
let him have some, saying "your turn", and so on. Let him know that this
is "sharing". Then try the sme thing with a toy he likes (take turns to
play with it). Next time he wants something you have, tell him he can't
HAVE it but he can SHARE it with you, and enforce it (i.e. take it back
after a while, letting him know that you're SHARING and it's now YOUR turn).

Talk to him about the other kids at daycare and let him know that the toys
there are for sharing too. Let your provider know that she should try to
enforce/encourage/teach sharing and turns too. At two, he's certainly old
enough to understand "Billy was playing with the truck. It's still his turn.
You can share the truck. It's not your turn yet, so give it back to him"
or something similar.

With constant encouragement (and demonstration) of sharing by you and your
son's care provider, he can and will learn to share (even though his
tendency when backs are turned may still be to grab!) and may even surprise
you with his eagerness to share (My daughter will often insist that I too
have a sip of milk or water or a bite of something that she has that I've
said is "yummy").

Good luck
Charlene

Newsgroups: misc.kids
From: elise@ticipa.pac.sc.ti.com (Elise Wade)
Newsgroups: misc.kids
Subject: Re: Backword Chaining: Was Dressing Self
Date: 12 Nov 92 18:45:39 GMT
Article-I.D.: ticipa.1992Nov12.184539.5486
Organization: Texas Instruments

In article <1689AC213.LISAS@pucc.Princeton.EDU> LISAS@pucc.Princeton.EDU (Lisa S Lewis) writes:
>I missed most of the discussion about self-dressing; I am assuming that it
>was mostly about the difficulty of getting kids to dress themselves with
>minimum help on busy mornings.
> 
>Anyway, I'm wondering if anyone who is teaching dressing skills is familiar
>with the technique often used with handicapped kids called backward chaining?
>It is perfect for teaching any complex skill.
> 
[.... deleted for brevity ...]
> 
>Lisa

Ah yes.  I am very familiar with this method, though the name is
new.  I've used it for years training dogs to do complex behaviours
-- like retrieving in a non-retrieving dog.  Its one of those techniques 
that works very well with young children as well.   Everyone doesn't
use this technique?  It's relatively easy & makes good sense.

Elise.
Newsgroups: misc.kids
From: sinnott@tc4.fi.ameslab.gov (Susan B. Sinnott)
Subject: Re: Need help with breastfeeding summary & thanks
Organization: Iowa State University
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 15:59:08 GMT

In article <209180004@hpcuhc.cup.hp.com> janeth@hpcuhc.cup.hp.com (Janet Helmbolt) writes:
>With all due sympathy to the mother who would like to continue nursing but
>her 10 month old will not have any part of it anymore, you may have to face
>the fact that in your previous life you were not a jersey cow.

Thanks for pointing this out. :-)  You are right, and if it doesn't work out
I won't be devistated or anything, but I feel that I owe it to both of us
to give it a really *good* try before I give up.  Part of the reason for
this is that when I posted for help, my son was only 10 *weeks* old and not
10 months, so he is still very young.

With regard to my "summary", I hope that I did not offend anyone with it,
and I apologize for not just listing the suggestions (as per a recent 
posted suggestion).  I thought about it, but felt that there was a lot of 
support and warmth in the posts that I thought the other mothers who had 
specifically asked for a summary deserved to see.  In the future, I might just 
email the long version to these mothers and just post a short summary to the 
net.  Once again, I'm sorry for wasting bandwidth.

The current update on my situation is this:  I have contact La Leche here
in town and am getting a supplementer from them.  I was going to get one
from a hospital in Des Moines, but I called before driving out there and
they said they would have to order some so I just went ahead and ordered
it from La Leche and should get it this Wednesday.  I'll let you all know
how it works out.  I am currently reading "The womanly art of breastfeeding"
that La Leche loaned me.

Thank you once more for all the email.  *Many* of the thanks that I sent
out in reply to the email bounced back, so if you are one of the kind
folks who emailed me and never got a reply, *thank you very much*!!

Susan Sinnott
sinnott@tc4.fi.ameslab.gov


Newsgroups: misc.kids
From: jbyrd@chpc.utexas.edu (Jan Byrd)
Subject: Re: Reluctant pooer
Organization: Center for High Performance Computing, Univ. of Texas System
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 92 21:57:57 GMT

|> In article <1992Nov10.023426.21116@cam.compserv.utas.edu.au>
|> J.Osborne@cam.compserv.utas.edu.au writes:
> What shall I do about my son Jack's 'difficulty'? He's 20 months old and
> appears to be trying as hard as he can *not* to do a poo.
>      ....
> I think I may have a behavioural rather than physical problem on my hands now.
> Jack still tries very hard not to do a poo, going ridgid and clamping his
> little bottom together when he feels something happening. A little bit comes
> out - just enough to aggrevate his bottom and keep it sore. He really doesn't
> seem to be trully constipated because the stools that do eventuate arn't hard.
> This straining/not straining makes him very unhappy, but at other times he
> seems quite happy.
> 
> Any suggestions? (And my apologies to Jack for talking about him like this in
> public!)
> 
> Jo

My oldest child had this problem also.  The pediatrician recommended prune
juice.  Maybe some kids hate it, but my son loved it, and it sure solved the
problem.  

An episode of painful constipation can scare a young child away from the 
potty.  They think they will just hold it and never have to go through that 
again.  The prune juice softened him up so much he COULDN'T hold it, and
since he HAD to go and it wasn't painful, it seemed to reassure him that it
was O.K. again.  It wasn't a big mess either.  I think it took about 6 oz
of prune juice to get things rolling again.

Jan
Newsgroups: misc.kids
From: judy@locus.com (Judy Leedom Tyrer)
Subject: Re: How to help the "oops" of a family...
Organization: Locus Computing Corporation, Los Angeles, California
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 21:06:23 GMT

In article <1dnigmINNasd@matt.ksu.ksu.edu> bets@matt.ksu.ksu.edu (Beth Schwindt) writes:
>
>I babysit (and have babysat at different times over the years) with a
>family with 3 children:  Billy, Joanna and Emily.  The age difference
>is 4 years between Billy and Joanna and 10 months between Jo and Emmy.
>Emmy was an admitted "oops" due to the fact her parents forgot that it
>*is* possible to get pregnant while you are nursing....Anyway...
>
>Billy and Jo pick on Em all the time about not being planned.  


Well, the writers of Roseanne had a wonderful explanation when DJ found out
he was an accident.

DJ:	Mom, was I an accident?
Roseann: No, you were a surprise.
DJ:	What's the difference?
Roseanne:  An accident is something that happens the you wouldn't want to happen
	again, and a surprise is something that happens and you're really
	glad it did.

Another alternative, if the family is Christian, might be to explain that
Mary wasn't exactly planning on Jesus' birth either.

You could even get theological and explain that Em is special because she is
the child God insisted be born to her parents, even though they didn't know
at the time they wanted her.

Or you could equip her with some one-liners about things that were planned
that didn't work out.  

"Charles Manson was planned and look how good he turned out."  or "They planned
the Edsel and it was a smashing success, NOT".  (okay, I'm flailing here,
but there must be some list of planned events that were disasters).

Good luck!


-- 
Judy Leedom Tyrer

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions"	- William Blake
Newsgroups: misc.kids
From: smb@ulysses.att.com (Steven Bellovin)
Subject: Re: "New Mothers Room" in the workplace
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 19:18:10 GMT
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories

In article <3167@ncr-mpd.FtCollinsCO.NCR.COM>, sbaum@margala.FtCollins.NCR.com (Susan Baum) writes:
> I am in the process of proposing to our company's personnel director and
> plant manager that we create a "New Mothers" room to provide breast
> feeding mothers with a decent place to express and then store their milk.
> Our corporate sales office already has such a room, complete with electric
> breast pump and mini refrigerator, table and chair, so at least the
> precedent has been set.
> 
> Does anyone know of any other companies which provided such a place
> (besides a stall in the ladies room!), and if so, what was provided in the
> room (refrigerator, pump, etc...) and suggestions on justifications for why
> this can be beneficial to the employer (i.e., encourage more women to
> return to work).

My wife, who also works for AT&T, went down to the Medical Department.
They were eager to co-operate, and let her use an examining room, their
refrigerator, etc.  There was only a problem once, when an emergency
patient was being treated in the room when she needed to go there.
Newsgroups: misc.kids
From: day_kevran@tandem.com (Kevran Day )
Subject: Chicken Pox Update and more...
Followup-To: misc.kids
Organization: Tandem Computers, Inc.
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 03:02:21 GMT

Well, thanks to everyone for their stories about newborns and
chicken pox.  I found 2 spots on Jason today, so it won't be long
until I can post my very own experience (whether Kylie gets it
or not).  The general concensus (including our pediatrician) is 
that Kylie most likely will not get CP since she's breastfeeding 
and I've had CP (so have the antibodies).  This is no guarrantee
but I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

On to other stuff.  Kylie at her 2 week checkup had gained over
1 lb and 1.25 inches.  Can I join the super mom cow club now???
;-) ;-) ;-)

My doctors instructions after the birth were a) plenty of rest
b) no lifting more than the baby's weight for 2-3 weeks and then
not more than 15 lbs for about 2 weeks.  Yeah, right!  Of course,
with a 2.5 YO I broke both rules the 1st day home.  Has anyone
out there with similar situation had any problems resulting from
basically ignoring the Dr's advice?  Like, is my uterus going to
fall out in two weeks? ;-) :-) (not that it would matter, since
Kylie was my last).  I was much more in need of a and b above
after my first was born.  This time, I don't really even feel like
I've just had a baby, but I'm curious.

Thanks again netters! 


Kevran (mom to Jason - 2.5YO and Kylie - 3WO)
day_kevran@tandem.com
Newsgroups: misc.kids
From: srb@aretha.jax.org (Susan Dewey)
Subject: Re: Brio/Thomas the Tank Engine
Followup-To: misc.kids
Organization: The Jackson Laboratory
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 92 18:39:45 GMT

In article <3859@master.CNA.TEK.COM>, judyd@rosebud.CNA.TEK.COM (Judy E.
Drake) wrote:
> 
> Since there seem to be a lot of Thomas the Tank Engine fans 
> (of all ages) out there, maybe someone will know the answer to
> this question:  
> 
> Is there a catalog that has Brio-compatible Thomas trains available 
> or am I hallucinating?


No hallucination. I believe that creative playthings has this and
other brio compatible train sets -- for less than the brio.
From: wang@optigfx.optigfx.com (Alice Wang)
Newsgroups: misc.kids
Subject: Sara Ride info needed
Date: 10 Nov 92 02:32:28 GMT
Followup-To: misc.kids
Distribution: usa
Organization: Optigraphics Corporation, San Diego

I'm looking for info on the product "Sara Ride"(sp?).
I've heard many good things about it in this news group
but I don't know if it's helpful for my situation.

Christine is getting pretty big to be carried around.
She hates the stroller.  David carries her around in
our Gerry backpack which she likes but for me, it puts
too much weight on my shoulder.  I found it much more
comfortable if I carry her with her kind of sitting on
my hip.  But when I do that, I'm only left with one
hand and I can only do it on my left side.

So can someone send me the number for Sara Ride? or
where I can look at one?

Please e-mail and I'll post a summary if enough interests.

Thanks in advance,
Alice Wang
Mom to Christine, 11 mo
wang@optigfx.com

P.S.  We've looked at the Tough Traveler carrier which
      looks good for hiking but I need something more
      compact for quick/small trip use.
From: millerm@oakhill.sps.mot.com (Mikemoe)
Newsgroups: misc.kids
Subject: Re: Things My Parents Did Right
Date: 12 Nov 92 14:48:28 GMT
Article-I.D.: oakhill.1992Nov12.144828.6872
Reply-To: millerm@oakhill.sps.mot.com
Organization: Motorola Semiconductor Products Sector


Yeah, I have great fondness for my parents' parenting...Granted,
I can easily think of things they did wrong...but so much more
they did right....


1) They loved each other dearly...I never worried about them getting
a divorce.

2) My father would throw the football with me, hit baseballs to me...
he was able to do this about 60-80% of the time that I asked him to.
Pretty good percentage, if you ask me.

3) My dad didn't let my mother do all the housework. My dad wasn't distant.
He didn't leave family-raising to my mother.

4) My mother gave us backrubs before bedtime sometimes. 

5) The trusted us if we proved trustworthy...

I could go on and on. I look forward to imitating my parents' techniques
of child-raising. No regrets here.

--Mike

---
+--------------------------------------------------------------+
| Michael Miller   millerm@oakhill.sps.mot.com                 |
| (512) 891-8582   Motorola - Semiconductors  Austin, TX       |
+--------------------------------------------------------------+
| Better not take a dog on the space shuttle, because if he    |
| sticks his head out when you're coming home his face might   |
| burn up.  -- Deep Thoughts by Jack Handey                    |
+--------------------------------------------------------------+
From: davids@hpsdde.sdd.hp.com (David Schwantner)
Newsgroups: misc.kids
Subject: Re: 20/20 and Spanking
Date: 6 Nov 1992 17:20:16 -0800
Organization: Hewlett Packard, San Diego Division
NNTP-Posting-Host: hpsdde.sdd.hp.com

In article <1992Nov6.164135.8725@dcs.qmw.ac.uk> arodgers@dcs.qmw.ac.uk (Angus H Rodgers) writes:
>>A parent needs to be a childs external control until they can help the child
>>develop its own internal controls.
(lots of deleting, hopefully none of it context material, for brevity)
>
>Also, I'm worried by your use of the word "need" in this context, because
>why didn't you write, "A child needs its parent to be ... "?. Be careful
>that you are not using control of the child as a substitute for *self*-
>control. by re-externalising, in the shape of the actual child, your own
>(disowned) internal child. (This could get very psychoanalytical ...)

Very good point about making it a need of the child and not of the parent!!
If I am just fulfilling my own egotistic or whatever needs, it doesn't serve
the child the way that they deserve in my love for them. I will try to 
rephrase it (and rethink it as I apply it!):

A child needs their parent to be an external control until they are helped  
to develop their own healthy internal disciplines and controls.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
David Schwantner - Hewlett-Packard - San Diego Site
Internet : davids@hpsdde.sdd.hp.com / davids%hpsdde@sdd.hp.com
Slow path: 16399 W. Bernardo Dr., San Diego, CA 92127, USA
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Disclaimer: All opinions expressed here are the sole resposibility of the  
author, and therefore are neither shared, owned, nor payed for by H-P. 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: tigger@satyr.Sylvan.COM (Grace Sylvan)
Newsgroups: misc.kids
Subject: Re: Long-sleeved Onesies
Date: 11 Nov 92 08:51:39 GMT
	<srb-091192120652@tarma.jax.org>
Followup-To: misc.kids
Distribution: na
Organization: Sylvan Associates

In article <srb-091192120652@tarma.jax.org> srb@aretha.jax.org (Susan Dewey) writes:

   Our very favorite onsies were actually called Piluchas (sp?) and sold at
   JC Penny. They have snap up fronts, with an around the crotch flap that
   snaps at the waist -- ideal for dressing while the child is in your lap. 
   They come in neat designs or plain colors. Cost: 2 for ~$8.

Just as another data point - I really disliked these, because I was
often wanting to put pull on pants on the baby with the snap crotch
shirt, and the extra fabric and snaps at the waist didn't seem to work
well with the pants waist.

-- 

Tigger (Grace Sylvan)                Mom of Katherine Yelena, 8/8/89,
tigger@satyr.sylvan.com              Corey 1/31/91; we loved him so,
                                     Robin Gregory born 2/28/92

 "It seems to me that our large goal is to find the ways to help our
 children become humane and strong."
 
              - Dr Haim Ginott quoted by Adele Faber & Elaine Mazlish