From: johnsd2@lib106.its.rpi.edu (Daniel Norman Johnson)
Subject: Re: IBM Funny
Reply-To: johnsd2@rpi.edu
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy, NY.
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 23:46:48 GMT

In article <1992Oct01.115048.11563@NeoSoft.com>, peter@NeoSoft.com (Peter da Silva) writes:
|> In article <terjer-300992093707@majestix.ifi.unit.no> terjer@ifi.unit.no (Terje Rydland) writes:
|> 
|> > Lets say that you are an "ordinary" user. You are in the program manager
|> > and you insert a diskette with a program and some data on it. The datafile
|> > is on the root level, but the application is three layers down in the
|> > filetree.
|> 
|> That's an implementation problem. I already *said* the implementation sucked
|> dead gerbils. I'd certainly rather use a Mac than a Windows box for real
|> work (and I recommend so). I'm talking about the GUI. You know... it's possible
|> to consider individual components of a system and discuss their merits
|> separately without getting emotional. At least I hope it is.

Oh, I very much doubt it! :) I mean, this is an .advocasy group... :)

Anyway, the implementation is what matters. If you want to talk
about a THEORETICAL windows, Fine. But you'll have to tell us
SPECIFICALLY what you are talking about. It isn't clear to me that
the Program Manager isn't included in what you were talking about....

|> 
|> > > Quick, on the Mac, what's the keyboard shortcut for "Print Draft"?
|> 
|> > That is not a standard choice, so it has no standard shortcut.
|> 
|> Who cares if it's standard or not, if you're using the program in Windows the
|> shortcut is presented to you every time you pull down the menu. And it's a
|> simple mnemonic. (probably ALT<FP>)

I suspect that that is (or should be) just plain print, no? On the Macintosh
that's command-P. Now, the reason for having standard command keys
is to avoid using the menus for certain common commands (quit, save);
you dont need to look i fyou have those commands memorized.

|> > > On the Mac, how do you tell just looking at the screen what programs you have
|> > > running?
|> 
|> > I use Applicon!
|> 
|> And this is a standard part of the system?

It isn't. pity. Under windowsm how do you tell just by looking at the
screen, what disks are mounted?

|> > > On the Mac, how do you get proportional scrollbars?
|> 
|> > I'm not sure what the extension is called.
|> 
|> Never mind. You don't. There's a hack that lets you get them on some
|> programs, but it depends on the programs using scroll bars in a particular
|> way.

Um, last time I checked Windows did not have proportional scrollbars
either. OS/2 does, tho. I dont know where your getting this
"particular way" stuff... if you use the standard scroll bar controls,
the proportional scrollbar hack works. If you write your own
code it doesn't (but this virtually never happens, since its doing
it the hard way)

|> > > On the Mac, can you move the menu bar down to where you're working on a large
|> > > screen?
|> 
|> > I use PopIT!
|> 
|> Another hack.
|> 
|> It's not part of Apple's GUI, and so it's not something the naive user you
|> were talking about earlier will come up with. This basically proves my
|> point: if the Mac GUI was so well designed, these hacks wouldn't be needed.
|> Other parts of the Mac system software are clearly superior to the way
|> Windows works, but the GUI is not one of them.

"... the way Wiundows works.." ? I thot we werent' talking about
implementation.

Anyway, several points:

a) Apple did consider proportional scroll bars for hte Mac, but droped them
because they confused new users. (a decision I personally disagree with)

b) How do you get the menu bar on a Windows app to come down to where
you are? Without shrinking the apps window or moving it down so that
the upper areas of the screen cannot be used?

c) It isn't as slow as you think; remember that you do not have to aim
at the menu bar vertically; the screen boundry stops your mouse so that you
can just flip it up there really fast and not worry about it.

Upshot: These hacks aren't needed. Some people just like them. Are there
comparable things for Windows, if you dont like the way Windows works?

-- 
			- Dan Johnson
And God said "Jeeze, this is dull"... and it *WAS* dull. Genesis 0:0

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