From: kv07@IASTATE.EDU (Warren Vonroeschlaub)
Subject: Re: What is consciousness?
Reply-To: kv07@IASTATE.EDU (Warren Vonroeschlaub)
Organization: Ministry of Silly Walks
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 23:09:42 GMT

In article <Xg68TB13w165w@kalki33>, kalki33!system@lakes.trenton.sc.us writes:
> kv07@IASTATE.EDU (Warren Vonroeschlaub) writes:
[This was mainly to find out how far the term "consciousness goes, so there is
lots of stuff deleted, as the answers are not pertinent to the continuation of
this dicussion]
>>  Q3: Is a simulation of life on my computer conscious?  It can be made to ac
>>just like the real thing.
>
>>  Possible objection to Q3: Artificial life is not conscious because it is ru
>>on an unconscious device.  It is made of the unconscious, so it is unconsciou
>>
>>  Counter-argument: Atoms are unconscious (they do not seek pleasure or pain,
>>they do not eat or sleep), yet conscious beings are made of atoms.  How is th
>>different?
>
>The body of the being is made out of atoms, but the consciousness of the
>being is not. There is a categorical difference between the
>consciousness and the matter it inhabits, like the difference between
>the car and the driver of the car. Of course, a car may be modified to
>appear to drive "by itself" with a suitable computer installed along
>with robot servos, or whatever. But the engineers who do this still know
>that the car has no driver and cannot act independently.

  But so why cannot "consciousness" exist for the life forms simulated by my
computer?  If consciousness is independant of matter than the fact that they
only exist in the computer should not be a barrier.  I would really like to
know: what _exactly_ is it that makes them consciousless?

>>  Q4: If I was capable of manufacturing an exact duplicate of a human being,
>>would that duplicate be conscious?  If so, how accurate do I have to be?  Cou
>>this be done by a simulation in the computer?
> 
>No, the exact duplicate of the human body would not be conscious. And
>this is a big "if" anyway, considering that scientists do not have any
>idea how to manufacture even a single cell. In fact, they have not even
>identified everything that is in a cell!

  Why wouldn't it be conscious?  You said that a virus was conscious, it
wouldn't be too hard to manufacture a virus (I'm willing to bet it will be
technically achievable within the next ten years if it isn't already).

  Now, let us say I have made this manufactured virus.  It would not be, in any
way, distinguishable from the real thing (right down to the atomic structure). 
What is it about the real virus that makes it conscious and the man made one
not?

  If you cannot give a clear separation then you have your answer why science
doesn't address the concept of consciousness by your definition: it is not well
defined.

>The point is that consciousness is not a function of matter, it is
>matter that is a function of consciousness. Your watch, your computer,
>your simulation program, and the body you build are all produced by the
>action of your consciousness. They are products made from matter under
>the direction of your consciousness. Of course, you did not personally
>create the raw materials from which these things were constructed, you
>simply engineered them. The raw materials themselves were produced by
>the action of another consciousness, the "Superconsciousness" (God).

  Hold on.  My body is "produced by the action of" my "consciousness" as far as
I can understand your definitions.  Does this mean that my consciousness
inhabits the alife programs I write?  Or does it mean that my consciousness is
not really associated with my body (which means that consciousness would not be
associated with life, a contradiction with your previous statements).

>Material analogies may help in understanding consciousness, but
>consciousness cannot be reduced to a material phenomenon.

  I didn't ask if these were a consciousness, I asked if the _had_
consciousness.  If you misunderstood could you go back and check your answers.

 |  __L__
-|-  ___  Warren Kurt vonRoeschlaub
 |  | o | kv07@iastate.edu
 |/ `---' Iowa State University
/|   ___  Math Department
 |  |___| 400 Carver Hall
 |  |___| Ames, IA  50011
 J  _____