HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: rws3n@astsun.astro.Virginia.EDU (Robert W. Spiker)
Subject: Re: What to do with Newbies? 
Reply-To: rws3n@astsun.astro.Virginia.EDU (Robert W. Spiker)
Organization: Department of Astronomy, Univ. of Virginia
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 05:23:53 GMT


sl7sg@cc.usu.edu writes:
>In article <1992Dec14.161705@karma.astro.Virginia.EDU>,
pcp2g@karma.astro.Virginia.EDU (Gilligan) writes:
>> 
>> Now I was on a game last night where a (assumedly) clued in person was
>> griping that there wasn't any clue in the game. What he did *not*
>> do was send out an ALL message to see who was listening and then talk 
>> to the team. He just griped. I would have been happy to take the advice 
>> of a Captain or whatnot, if he had chosen to give it. As it was, I wasn't 
>> in the mood to talk it out with him, but I think that griping is counter-
>> productive.
>
Yeah, what he said.  (Because I was on that game too.)

>	Could have been he had tried for quite a while to get people to get a
>clue, and finnally gave up, which usually degenerates into griping (yes, I
>admit it, I have griped, but only after I have tried to get clue).
>
Except that he didn't talk to any of us.  It's hard to get a clue from
someone who won't communicate with you.

Here's some advice from Lieutenant CasualPlayer to all those Fleet
Captains out there:

                       Clueless != useless.


Some of us would like to play well and contribute to the game, but
aren't sure what to do.  Those players who have played for a while
know what to do and when (like bombing planets, ogging bases,
etc.); those like us who haven't need some guidance.  So, PLEASE, if
it looks like your team is wandering around and not doing things, TELL
us what to do.  Don't complain that we're clueless when you really
mean useless. If you ask, the chances that we succeed may be slim, but
nonzero.  If you don't ask, the chances are exactly zero, and you end
up leaving the game in a huff (which helps no one).

Here's an analogy:

Wars and war games are usually run by colonels and generals and such,
because they have 20+ years of experience in the Army.  The
lieutenants, just out of the Academy, can follow orders well but they
aren't experienced enough to give orders to entire divisions.  After a
while they get promoted and can then lead divisions---and give orders
to the new lieutenants out of the Academy.

Perhaps if captains were to give clear orders, like "bomb Eri" or
"kill R9" everyone would be a lot happier.  I would feel happy DOING
something, even if I do it badly at first, and team leaders would be
happy that though their team may be inexperienced, it is not clueless.



Robert W. Spiker            rws3n@Virginia.EDU
Department of Astronomy     P.O. Box 3818, University Station
University of Virginia      Charlottesville VA 22903 USA
From: @soda.berkeley.edu ()
Newsgroups: rec.games.netrek
Subject: Re: What to do with Newbies?
Date: 16 Dec 1992 01:19:25 GMT
Organization: U.C. Berkeley, CS Undergraduate Association
NNTP-Posting-Host: soda.berkeley.edu

In article <1992Dec15.052353.14328@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> rws3n@astsun.astro.Virginia.EDU (Robert W. Spiker) writes:
>Perhaps if captains were to give clear orders, like "bomb Eri" or
>"kill R9" everyone would be a lot happier.  I would feel happy DOING
>something, even if I do it badly at first, and team leaders would be
>happy that though their team may be inexperienced, it is not clueless.

Hey!  Who said captains were clued?  Look at me, I'm a captain.  'nuf said.

And if you don't think only one case is not proof enough, oh I got plenty
more where that came from.  More like you need clued players telling you
what to do, not Captains or Flt Captains, etc...

mlee
One, Two, etc...
From: mlee@soda.berkeley.edu (Michael Lee)
Newsgroups: rec.games.netrek
Subject: Re: This has gone too far.....
Date: 14 Dec 1992 01:55:14 GMT
Organization: U.C. Berkeley, CS Undergraduate Association
NNTP-Posting-Host: soda.berkeley.edu

In article <1992Dec14.000555.14552@galileo.cc.rochester.edu> markiel@callisto.pas.rochester.edu (Andrew Markiel) writes:
>In article <1gfad5INNaps@agate.berkeley.edu> mlee@soda.berkeley.edu (Michael Lee) writes:
>>Why?  Forgive my ignorance, but the only great thing about them is that they
>>can carry 3 armies/kill (besides massive hull points and other minor details.)
>>So, maybe if your team was nearly kill flat, then use them. Of course use them
>>to bomb the planet down, but shouldn't you really have someone else, like in a
>>DD, take the planet?
>>
>Two reasons. First of all, if you have one person bombing the planet and
>another beaming down the armies, that's two people doing the job of one
>which is a waste of manpower. (You can also get disaster if you're going
>for an agri, and the planet pops between the AS bombing and the other
>ship beaming). Second, you often can't count on having a 2 kill ship to
>carry, since usually those are being hunted mercilessly. Taking with a

That's what I mean.  In cases where you have only one kill, then I see the
reasoning, but otherwise, shouldn't a DD take it, because of their speed?
Two people doing a job in an lps is nothing, you should really have half the
team going after the planet, escorting, etc.  I think assaults are just prime
ogg targets, and when I see one in an lps, and it has kills, then I highly
consider going after it.  If you time the drop right, you can get the drop,
right when the Assault is done bombing.  So in a sense, you do not have to 
worry about the popping of the planet before getting to it.

Oh well, that's how I'd consider taking a planet in an lps situation.

mlee
One, Two, etc...
From: fadden@uts.amdahl.com (Andy McFadden)
Newsgroups: rec.games.netrek
Subject: Re: Another Clue game, and weeding clue from non-clue
Date: 16 Dec 92 21:40:27 GMT
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA

In article <1gm796INNb0p@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> mcn@b62103.student.cwru.edu writes:
>  If you'd like a copy, send mail to: fadden@uts.amdahl.com. He maintains
>the software, and would be happy to mail people a copy if you send him
>proof of clue. (200 words or more describing various netrek situations, and
>what you do in them).

Somebody is going to die.

>-Mike Neuman (Guru)

-- 
fadden@uts.amdahl.com (Andy McFadden)
[ Above opinions are mine, Amdahl has nothing to do with them, etc, etc. ]
Newsgroups: rec.games.netrek
From: isae@IASTATE.EDU (ISU Boy !!!!!)
Subject: Re: Doorstop: running 24 clue hours
Reply-To: isae@IASTATE.EDU (ISU Boy !!!!!)
Organization: Iowa State University
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 04:32:03 GMT

In article <1gorspINNprk@matt.ksu.ksu.edu>, bo21307@matt.ksu.ksu.edu (VPC)
writes:
> Hello Netrekers:
> 	I kinda like the idea of the "clue" check on Doorstop, however,
> I think if you are ranked Flt.Captain or higher, you shouldn't have to
> answer there messages. (When I concentrate on taking planets/dogfighting,
> I read messages but I can't take my finger off to reply messages).
> 	This is just a suggestion, do not take it wrong...
> 

Hmm..  you believe rank == clue?   ;) I don't.


> 		C-YA all,
> 	
> 	VPC / aka WingCommander, Target_Practice, Yorick.
> 

-Rony
 isae@IASTATE.EDU
From: jwh@cs.bham.ac.uk (James Hawtin)
Newsgroups: rec.games.netrek
Subject: Name Scumming
Date: 14 Dec 92 13:58:59 GMT
Reply-To: jwh@cs.bham.ac.uk
Organization: School of Computer Science, The University of Birmingham, UK

We have had an attack of name scumming on our server here

say "ZZnew guy " so that it looks the same as another player on the list. Then they go
about destroying any cred you have... in my case I never had any so its not a problem! Perhaps server gods should change there code so that end spaces are removed from the
player name when it is recieved.


			James

Commodore wibble
From: mlee@soda.berkeley.edu (Michael Lee)
Newsgroups: rec.games.netrek
Subject: Re: What to do with Newbies?
Date: 16 Dec 1992 00:58:50 GMT
Organization: U.C. Berkeley, CS Undergraduate Association
NNTP-Posting-Host: soda.berkeley.edu

In article <1992Dec14.161705@karma.astro.Virginia.EDU> pcp2g@karma.astro.Virginia.EDU (Gilligan) writes:
>The situation will only get worse as more people find out about the game.
>Anybody can log onto bronco, from the Admirals to Ensign Guest. Perhaps
>a server that only lets in higher ranks than Lt Cmmdr or Captain is
>called for. 
>
That would be difficult as you would never achieve the rank of captain if you
are not allowed to play in that server before getting that rank.

Then, there's the possibility of letting them obtain rank on another server.
This wouldn't work since rank depends on relative ratings  vs everybody on that
server, so it would be difficult to judge between Captain at Doormat, I mean
Doorstop, or a commander at Bronco.  The commander at Bronco could be much 
better since competition is much worse at Bronco than at Doorstop.  (No offense
to Doorstop)

Also, you would get rank scummers, which are almost as bad as runner scummers.
We wouldn't want those things in our "clue games".

mlee
One, Two, etc...
From: markiel@callisto.pas.rochester.edu (Andrew Markiel)
Newsgroups: rec.games.netrek
Subject: Re: This has gone too far.....
Date: 14 Dec 92 00:05:55 GMT
Organization: U(r) AstroTheory Group

In article <1gfad5INNaps@agate.berkeley.edu> mlee@soda.berkeley.edu (Michael Lee) writes:
>In article <1gept8INN45e@girtab.usc.edu> echeverr@scf.usc.edu (5150) writes:
>>
>>Only a superb SC can ogg a clued player in a CA, IMO, unless the CA is taken
>>completely by surprise.  I (not to toot my own horn or anything) try not to
>
I've found that scouts don't og very well alone, although they can be
very helpful in getting behind an opponent to cut off their escape.
However, scouts can be very nasty if they can catch the opponent on a
planet, because at those slow warps the scouts warp 16 torps are
completely undodgeable. If you time it right, you can fly by at long
phaser range and unload 10 torps per second; even if they are all
detted, that's still a lot of damage. You have to get the timing just
right, though, but you can often do it since many people underestimate
how fast a scout can arrive, and gamble that they can beam up the armies
(or refuel) and still get away in time.

Alone in open space, though, they tend to whiff mightily.
>>
>>>BB - 	good for ... ok, almost all ships have a place in netrek.

I find that as a BB it's very difficult to get from one place to another,
so I only play BB's when there's only 1 place I want to be. That doesn't
happen very often (LPS, defending the front-line agri we just took,
crashing the home planet). Also, since I don't play them very much, I
tend to do very badly in them (which tends to make me not use them :-)
>
>>>AS - 	good for bombing mass quantities of armies and detting for
>>>		carriers.  good for ferrying mass quantities of armies.
>>
>>Also should be used above all else to take back your own core planets.
>
>Why?  Forgive my ignorance, but the only great thing about them is that they
>can carry 3 armies/kill (besides massive hull points and other minor details.)
>So, maybe if your team was nearly kill flat, then use them. Of course use them
>to bomb the planet down, but shouldn't you really have someone else, like in a
>DD, take the planet?
>
Two reasons. First of all, if you have one person bombing the planet and
another beaming down the armies, that's two people doing the job of one
which is a waste of manpower. (You can also get disaster if you're going
for an agri, and the planet pops between the AS bombing and the other
ship beaming). Second, you often can't count on having a 2 kill ship to
carry, since usually those are being hunted mercilessly. Taking with a
1 kill destroyer is risky because you generally need two trips, during
which you could get ogged, or the planet could grow before you can get
back. Better to have a 1 kill assault, who will beam down 3 armies. If
you get any decent bomb, that will be enough at least to neutralize it,
and even if the AS goes down, then anyone else can beam down 1 more army
with no danger of the planet growing.
>
>>5150
>
>mlee
>One, Two, etc...

-Grey Elf
From: tom@soda.berkeley.edu (Tom Holub)
Newsgroups: rec.games.netrek
Subject: Re: This has gone too far.....
Date: 16 Dec 1992 06:14:10 GMT
Organization: U.C. Berkeley, CS Undergraduate Association
NNTP-Posting-Host: soda.berkeley.edu

In article <1gmeb0INNjsn@charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu> tvangod@ecst.csuchico.edu (Skud the Great) writes:
)On ogging in a BB, it can be done and done effectively. They key is knowing just
)how long your fuel will last while cloaked, you dont need much in a BB to dust a
)destroyer that isnt watching. This just takes a lot of practise.
)The one bad thing, is a BB is not made to Planet take, it is way too slow.

I totally agree that BB's are the best dogfighting ship (assuming you
know how to fly one, which most people don't).  I tend to disagree with
your other assertions.  BB's are OK at ogging big ships (AS, BB, and CA),
but they have problems chasing and they don't blow up enough (the
main advantage a CA enjoys in ogging is that it's pretty easy to
blow up on the other guy if you line up right; in a BB you often wind
up alive far longer than you want to be).

I also don't think they're too bad for planet taking in medium-clue games.
If I'm heading to a planet and I'm not going to have to deal with more
than one ogger, I can go in a BB and stay uncloaked, waste the ogger
and take the planet.  Or go in and dogfight the dude, kill him and take
the planet.  I wouldn't try either of these manouvers in any other
ship.  In high-clue games it tends not to work as well because the
second ogger will take you out 'cause you run out of fuel, but in a
recent clue game Superman played a BB and took something like 10 planets,
so it's not impossible.  In low-clue games, of course, you can take 
planets in anything; I made Admiral taking planets in a BB.
 -Mojo
(former tank driver)
From: paulsen@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Brian Paulsen)
Newsgroups: rec.games.netrek
Subject: Re: Tom's* Scheduling Counter-Proposal
Date: 14 Dec 92 15:43:13 GMT
Organization: University of Pennsylvania

In article <1ggo7iINNh1v@agate.berkeley.edu> tom@soda.berkeley.edu (Tom Holub) writes:
>In article <wf9Jhja00VpNM3lkxR@andrew.cmu.edu> Kevin Michael Bernatz <kb32+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:

>)>   It's more work for the INL Council but it's
>)> still all pre-season work.  Captains will still have their 
>)> entire schedule laid out at the beginning of the season.
>)
>)This seems to be you're big gripe with other systems.. is that a correct
>)assumption?  Is you're main goal to make it easier on the captains?
>
>It is a major goal, yes, and it is the main problem I have with 
>the ladder and swiss systems.

The swiss system may have difficulties with scheduling.  Any ladder-based
system (like my point count) has NO such difficulties.  Games are scheduled
based on the teams finding times that are convenient.  Even the system that
you propose, Tom, has a greater scheduling problem than a ladder system.

Also, please reflect on this season about whether or not the council can
accurately rank every team.  Even you would not give LAR the credit they
deserved until late in the season.  Also, it took about half the season
for TAA to be properly ranked.  While it sounds nice to say that only a
few teams will be improperly ranked, I know that I'd be pissed if my team
was ranked wrong, and I know you'd be pissed if yours was, too.

> -Tom
From: von@cory.Berkeley.EDU (Steve Von Worley)
Subject: Re: This has gone too far.....
Organization: University of California, at Berkeley
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 01:34:47 GMT

In article <1992Dec13.004856.23139@galileo.cc.rochester.edu> markiel@callisto.pas.rochester.edu (Andrew Markiel) writes:
>In article <Mf_FBzi00awRI4f5l5@andrew.cmu.edu> tw1r+@andrew.cmu.edu (Timothy C. Worsley) writes:
>>
>>	I think that theme games like that are sort of fun.  I'm waiting for
>>woof to make his all SC vs all AS chalange.
>>
>>ZZnew guy
>
>Hmm. Unless the AS players are significantly better, I think the scouts
>will have an easy victory. In fact, I'm about ready to propose that the
>AS needs improvement, as soon as I decide what improvements it needs.

The AS has a special place in netrek, just like other types of normal
ships:

SC -	good for scoutbombing, ogging, taking.

DD - 	good for quick takes in games with rabid oggers.  good for
	dogfighting.

CA - 	good for almost everything. :)

BB - 	good for ... ok, almost all ships have a place in netrek.
		some people might say good for LPS's (or near LPS's).
		maybe for short escorting runs.

AS - 	good for bombing mass quantities of armies and detting for
		carriers.  good for ferrying mass quantities of armies.

The problem is, most people use the AS for the wrong reason; to carry
lots of armies to some distant planet.  AS's manuever and fly so slow
that they are ogg bait; they must be escorted.

Have fun flaming away!

Sandia
-- 
Steve Von Worley
von@cory.berkeley.edu
Computer Science Gradual Student
University of California at Berzerkly
From: echeverr@scf.usc.edu (5150)
Newsgroups: rec.games.netrek
Subject: Re: Addiction
Date: 17 Dec 1992 19:42:42 -0800
Organization: <censored>
NNTP-Posting-Host: girtab.usc.edu

In talk.bizarre, article <4fAFdqG00VpH0i=0s1@andrew.cmu.edu> Court Demas <court+@CMU.EDU> writes:
>I need a new addiction.  Any ideas?
>
>-lingus

Court needs our help, guys.

5150
mud, empire, maelstrom, street fighter ii, sonic the hedgehog (i & ii)
From: wildman@athena.mit.edu (Timothy Worsley)
Subject: Team BLOOD!!!
Organization: Massachvsetts Institvte of Technology
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 10:07:06 GMT


At the beginning of the semester, Netrek hit MIT like a ton of bricks.  After
trying unsuccessfully to introduce it for the last 2 years, someone got a
binary through and the results were impressive.

Also, someone began to form an MIT INL team.  I swooped down on the group
like a starving vulture and Team BLOOD was formed.  Composed of a core of
dedicated players, we met twice a week and practiced the basics - the bomb,
the ogg, the escort, the Base Ogg, phaser lock, etc.  Also, we arranged to
project my INL XGolem games onto a huge color movie screen so that the whole
group could watch and comment.  At first, they just tried to follow the
action.  Eventually, they provided a constant game commentary, including
the fateful "God.  You gotta be a real good escort to fly with Mr. Wizard"*
crack during the XG vs GB game.  I also arranged for them to sub into
XGolem games when we were low on players, and arranged a scrimmage against
the ulowell team.

Unfortunately, the core did not expand.  While there was a large contingent
of Netrek players on the MIT campus, they all sucked.  Because they had
not shown up to practice, and had not watched the INL games, they were not
really clued.  So we got together and talked it out.

	"If we play, what can we expect?"

	"Well, we've got the classic INL problem - nothing in our bottom 3
slots.  What does that mean?  It means we'll lose, and lose often.  We'll
lose to teams that play worse than us, through no fault of our own."

	The decision was reached to shelve Team BLOOD!!! for another
semester, until such a time as we can field 8 good players.

	This leaves 3 very good, very clued players without INL teams:

	Subby <madpit@athena.mit.edu>,
	choker <ranald@athena.mit.edu>,
	and Gyrfalcon <wchuang@athena.mit.edu>.

	They are off campus until January 6.  When they come back, you can
send them proposals.

	And me?  I'd like to announce that I'm accepting the invitation to
join the Team With No Name.  So I'll still be around.

--Timothy Worsley,
Warsong, Lumchan

*ObSubby
Organization: Doctoral student, Mathematics, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: rec.games.netrek
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 06:43:11 -0500 
From: Erik Lauer <el0g+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: This has gone too far.....
	<1992Dec13.013447.9491@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU>

von@cory.Berkeley.EDU (Steve Von Worley) writes:

In article <1992Dec13.004856.23139@galileo.cc.rochester.edu>
markiel@callisto.pas.rochester.edu (Andrew Markiel) writes:
>In article <Mf_FBzi00awRI4f5l5@andrew.cmu.edu> tw1r+@andrew.cmu.edu
(Timothy C. Worsley) writes:
>>
>>	I think that theme games like that are sort of fun.  I'm waiting for
>>woof to make his all SC vs all AS chalange.
>>
>>ZZnew guy
>
>Hmm. Unless the AS players are significantly better, I think the scouts
>will have an easy victory. In fact, I'm about ready to propose that the
>AS needs improvement, as soon as I decide what improvements it needs.

The AS has a special place in netrek, just like other types of normal
ships:

SC -	good for scoutbombing, ogging, taking.

.
.
.
>AS - 	good for bombing mass quantities of armies and detting for
>		carriers.  good for ferrying mass quantities of armies.
>
>The problem is, most people use the AS for the wrong reason; to carry
>lots of armies to some distant planet.  AS's manuever and fly so slow
>that they are ogg bait; they must be escorted.

(and of course the huge bombing that occurs sometimes)
The detting part is exactly why the AS might be OK against an all scout
team.  Admittedly the AS have a hard time getting a kill, but I would
think the scouts would have a hard time stopping the take - perhaps the
AS team could det the SC team flat out of fuel.  If the AS have a chance
it is the early bombing, hope to get enough of an early lead to hold on
for the duration.  Of course the whole game is a downhill stuggle, as
the AS lack scout bombers.


Erik
---=
Newsgroups: rec.games.netrek
From: bdhall@lucky.ecn.purdue.edu (Brian D Hall)
Subject: Re: Dogfight Size wars
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 01:37:07 GMT

In article <IfB62Sy00VB602h4Eb@andrew.cmu.edu> "Timothy C. Worsley" <tw1r+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
>Excerpts from netnews.rec.games.netrek: 20-Dec-92 Re: Dogfight Size wars
>Brian D Hall@lucky.ecn.p (1222)
>
>> 	Until we "cure" the TOTAL runnerscum attitude on fife, I believe the
>> mod will stay in place.  It's horrible to see 10 ships all in a circle 
>> spraying torps into the center and turn around to run.  Anyone got a better
>> idea to "cure" this problem?  We are open for suggestions.
>
>
>	Form a purdue INL team.  It seems that the second* fastest way to
>infuse clue to a server is to have a local INL team.  Witness IAState,
>Uwashington, USC, etc.
>
>* The fastest way is to have Terence come to your collage.
>
>ZZnew guy



	It's a great idea in concept, but I seriously doubt it would work 
(mostly due to scheduling problems).  I personally don't know of anywhere on
campus that 8 of us could get together and play.  The Elect. Engr. side of the
network here HATES NETREK WITH A PASSION, at least the server admin does.  
The SUNs that would need to be used are off-limits to games before 11PM (and
they keep watch -- background processing looking for port connections to the
more popular servers).  The other engineering departments are MUCH more 
understanding and do not restrict games as much.  So.... anyone in EE would
be hard pressed to find a machine to play on, and we would NOT be anywhere
near each other where we could talk.... so it would be much like an at-large
team.
	We barely have enough clue for a backbone at this time.  One of our
best (which, BTW, used to be one of your players), is leaving to return to CMU
in early Jan.   Sigh......

	I'm rambling (side effect of doing work AND writing this).

	I may TRY to put a team together.  I wouldn't be easy and I'm POSITIVE
that ALL of the responsibilities would be placed on me.  I'm not sure if I 
have that kind of time.  I'll have to think about it.


   Brian






Organization: Junior, Math/Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA