HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: linville@garfield.catt.ncsu.edu (John W. Linville)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: Oh my God! Help my friend not buy an IBM!
Date: 16 Nov 92 22:33:02 GMT
Organization: Computer and Technologies Theme Program, NCSU, Raleigh

In article <1992Nov13.080654.874@nrlvx1.nrl.navy.mil> dyer@nrlvx1.nrl.navy.mil (Doug Dyer) writes:
>So you can "get" co-processor boards, but the amiga's are standard and
>integrated into the design - imagine if the sound-blaster was standard from day
>one in every pc.  See the advantage :)

Sarcasm on;

Yeah!  Then, everytime I needed a PC to use as a printer server, or a word
processor, or a CAD station, or anything else beside a game or 'multimedia'
machine, I would still have to pay for the extra cost of sound hardware.  That
sounds like a great idea!  Then, the MacIntosh and the Amiga wouldn't be the
only two computers that made you waste money to get sound hardware whether
you needed it or not.

Sarcasm off;

Give me a break!  The fact that the PC doesn't come with everything-but-the
kitchen-sink is a strength in many cases.  The only time you should have to 
pay for all that sound and graphics muscle is if you really need it.  If you
do need it, the Amiga is a decent deal on the low end, but for high-end work,
PC peripherals are usually cheaper and often they are better supported and
more 'state-of-the-art.'  How long did the Amiga wait for AGA?

Finally, for those who devalue high processor speeds, try getting 30-40 back-
ground processes running and then tell me how well your Amiga compares to my
PC running OS/2.

John W. Linville
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
|   John W. Linville                 Amateur radio:  KD4KHC                   |
|   #include "std_disclaimer.h"      E-mail:  linville@catt.ncsu.edu          |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
From: pss1@kepler.unh.edu (Paul S Secinaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: Oh my God! Help my friend not buy an IBM!
Date: 20 Nov 1992 21:32:22 GMT
Organization: University of New Hampshire  -  Durham, NH
NNTP-Posting-Host: kepler.unh.edu

In article <By14Bx.4tw@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> kodak@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Jason 'KodaK' Balicki) writes:
>Does OS/2 have it's own GUI or not?  If it doesn't then you NEED to run 
>Windows (and therefore DOS) in order to get a GUI.  I would assume that
>OS/2 doesn't need to run Windows otherwise.  With Amiga there is no need
>to run a GUI other than the native.  Let's stick with native apps ok?
>And chill out on the flame button OK?  Christ, let's be civilized.  :)

The native OS/2 GUI is called the WorkPlace Shell (WPS).  This is a
new shell that first appeared in version 2.0.  Prior to 2.0, OS/2 used
a different GUI (Program Manager, or something like that), but it has
always had a GUI since, I think, v1.2 or so.

The reason many OS/2 has Windows emulation is not for the GUI (which
many feel is far less capable than WPS), but to have access to the
larger application base that Windows has.  This is the same reason
that Amiga users use Amax or bridgeboards.  Native OS/2 software uses
the WPS, and has no need to touch the Windows emulator.

Paul




-- 
Paul Secinaro
pss1@kepler.unh.edu
Synthetic Vision and Pattern Analysis Laboratory
UNH Dept. of Electrical and Computer Engineering
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,alt.sys.amiga.demos
From: oahvenla@snakemail.hut.fi (Osma Ahvenlampi)
Subject: Re: Programming
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland
	<OAHVENLA.92Nov15135840@lk-hp-4.hut.fi> <1e6dbmINNh75@ub.d.umn.edu>
	<mwm.2npl@contessa.palo-alto.ca.us>
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 09:19:21 GMT

In article <mwm.2npl@contessa.palo-alto.ca.us> mwm@contessa.palo-alto.ca.us (Mike Meyer) writes:

>In <1e6dbmINNh75@ub.d.umn.edu>, rfentima@ub.d.umn.edu (Robert Fentiman) wrote:
>> In article <OAHVENLA.92Nov15135840@lk-hp-4.hut.fi> oahvenla@snakemail.hut.fi (Osma Ahvenlampi) writes:
>> My concepts of
>> programming include modularity, usability, serving the purpose for which
>> it written.  ANY language can be used to accomplish these tasks.

>BZZZT. You should try programming in ANSI minimal BASIC. You'd change
>your tune.

I was not quoted in this. Why is my name here?

>> Oh, and comments like "Amos is a *ROTTEN* introduction language are
>> staying on that topic?  The discussion started when someone said
>> basically that AMOS Sucks.  There is NO single topic on this thread.

I was not quoted in this. Why is my name here?
>No, this discussion started when someone said "AMOS sucks; it's not
>system compliant". You immediately said "Oh no, more of the AMOS is
>only good for games. It is system compliant" lately you've been
>avoiding that, and trying to imply that it's good for beginning
>programmers. I'll agree that it's probably better than C. However,
>that doesn't make it _good_ for beginning programmers.

I said that AMOS is not system compliant. I am ashamed of that, as I should
have known what it leads to. I still think so, but please, lets stop this
thread. Nothing can be solved by it anymore.
--
Osma Ahvenlampi  -  oahvenla@snakemail.hut.fi   * Workstation power for micro-
All my opinions are not necessarily really mine * computer price: Amiga := FUN
From: grr@cbmvax.commodore.com (George Robbins)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: Re:The falcon's super.. NEW!
Date: 15 Nov 92 23:59:59 GMT
Reply-To: grr@cbmvax.commodore.com (George Robbins)
Organization: Commodore, West Chester, PA

In article <1992Nov15.064627.23036@rmece49.upr.clu.edu> raist@rmece02.upr.clu.edu (Ricardo Hernandez) writes:
>        Jeff Young's way of saying
> 
>       BS, WHERE IS THE FALCON????? DELAYED???? TSK, TSK.
> 
>    Guys, the FALCON has its merits (when it FINALLY exists!), and yes,
> I am not going to deny that having SCSI-II, built-in microphone, DSP,
> etc. is not nice.  I am one of those that the more features the better.
> 
>    But so far I have encountered with some "Falcon design problems".  Like
> , for example, the 68030 stalls when a DMA takes place, the Video slows
> the CPU, seems like the 68030 can't use the "burst mode", etc.  Those
> are things that I don't see on the A1200, not to mention that the A1200
> EXISTS.  

I would point out that, the A1200 processor can be slowed by video DMA
and that since a 68020/EC020 doesn't have burst mode, it's no different
that a 68030 with burst mode disabled.

On the other hand it is shipping in Europe and should be shiping in
the US fairly soon, so the performance and design issues are definable.

Much of what has been posted here about the Falcon seems to be rumor
and confusion with some leavening of information based on developer
and demo units.  Many of the features/faults cited here have been also
been flawed due to either confusion about the Falcon or the A1200.

>    I think that where the Falcon will shine is on sound.  I think it is
> a *very nice keyboard* and it's price is worth it.  Problem is that for
> games (specially action games) the A1200 will kick ass, and is one of
> those things that home-computer peole love.  And the Falcon's not here...

Could be.  The A1200 wasn't designed as a "Falcon killer", the design
was complete and on it's way to production before all this Falcon noise
get started.  Some of the Falcon spec's sound better, but the A1200's
out the gate first and has a stronger software base.  Over the long
haul, I would wonder if the Falcon could compete pricewise or if Atari
would have to ditch some of those features for a "STf" stripped down
Falcon...

-- 
George Robbins - now working for,     work:   to be avoided at all costs...
but no way officially representing:   uucp:   {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!grr
Commodore, Engineering Department     domain: grr@cbmvax.commodore.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: leavitt@cheshire.oxy.edu (Thomas VanNess Leavitt)
Subject: Accelerators, and CPUless Amigas...
Organization: Occidental College, Los Angeles, CA 90041 USA.
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1992 21:13:56 GMT

Say I want to spend $1200 on a 3000/16/40 and $829 on a 25mhz '040
accelerator (my credit card will stretch that far)... will I be able
to by a CPU less 4000 logic board, or use my accelerator on a 1200
when I get a bit more money and these systems become available?

Thom
leavitt@cheshire.oxy.edu
From: root@rkamiga.UUCP (Rick Kelly)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re:  Notebook Computers Dominate Comdex
Distribution: world
Date: 21 Nov 92 17:22:04 EST
Organization: Rick's Amiga

In article <1992Nov20.161639.6403@tc.fluke.COM> kurt@tc.fluke.COM (Kurt Guntheroth) writes:
>barrett@iastate.edu (Marc N. Barrett) writes:
>>   The obvious questions are: when is Commodore going to develop a notebook
>>Amiga???  Will it be when the growth of notebook sales has slowed and some
>>other technology is the cutting-edge in the industry?  And when will Commodore
>>jump into the pen-based computer market?  
>>---
>>| Marc Barrett -MB-  |  email: barrett@iastate.edu
>
>As usual MB doesn't get it.
>
>Commodore is in the low-manufacturing-cost computer business.  When
>notebook displays are as cheap as CRTs, commodore will be in.  When there
>is no price penalty for portability, commodore will be in.  And when and
>*if* pen based computing stops being a niche and finds some mainstream
>customers, commodore might get in, but I wouldn't bet the ranch on pen
>computing if it were my company.
>
>Commodore is comfortably differentiated from IBMPCs already with its
>streamlined multitasking OS and fast graphics.  Eventually Windows-NT will
>stabilize, and maybe graphics chips powerful enough to offset the slow way
>Windows interfaces to memory will be created.  Then Commodore will have to
>do something new to differentiate themselves.  But not now.

Check out BusinessWeek for November 30, 1992.

The article: 'The great digital hope' could be a heartbreaker

Subtitle: Apple's hype of 'personal assistants' leads to disappointment


The jist of the article is that consumer really aren't interested in paying
$1000 for the Newton.  They are hoping to sell directly to corporations.

They won't be shipping in first quarter 1993.

The industry expects that a real PDA market won't open up until 1995, and
that prices will have to drop to less than $500, preferably as close to
$300 as possible.

Eckard Pfeiffer, president of Compaq is quoted as saying, "at this point
PDAs are good headlines but little else".

In Silicon valley PDA is said to mean "probably disappointed again".

The article compares PDAs with pen-top computers, that were supposed to be
selling billions of dollars worth by now. ( 1990 projections )

My feeling:

A PDA is just to big to fit in a pocket, and who wants to carry it around in
their hand all day, especially when it is not as flexible as a notebook
computer.

Products such as the Casio BOSS, Sharp Wizard, and HP 95LX are good
productivity tools that are available today at a reasonable price.

As the article says, hand-writing recognition software is still error prone,
and I wouldn't want to pay even $500 for a device that has a buggy interface.
It would be like buying a computer where the keyboard only works 90% of the
time.

--
Rick Kelly		Rick's Amiga		Framingham, Mass.

		think!unixland!rmkhome!rkamiga!root
From: pjotr@ludd.luth.se (Peter Sj|str|m)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: Falcon Spec's [per Comdex handouts]
Date: 23 Nov 92 12:51:47 GMT
Organization: Lule} Tekniska H|gskolas Datorf|rening - Ludd

In <37220@cbmvax.commodore.com> grr@cbmvax.commodore.com (George Robbins) writes:

>Atari Falcon030 Specificiations

>System Architecture

>o Independent address and data buses for increased performance.

	Never laughed this much for a long time!!!

	Seriously, has anybody ever built a computer with one common
address/data bus?

		/Peter
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: jejones@microware.com (James Jones)
Subject: Re: The piracy argument to end all arguments....
Organization: Microware Systems Corp., Des Moines, Iowa
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 09:04:12 GMT

In article <92322.143017CMS129@psuvm.psu.edu> CMS129@psuvm.psu.edu (ChrisSlothman Stoy) writes:
> The answer to question 2 (which is what most of the people here seem to be
>arguinng about) is not as clear.  There is no standard morality for the human
>race.

True, but some things seem to be fairly uniformly deprecated, e.g. murder and
theft.  Software "piracy" falls in the latter category.

>accept returned software after it has been opened.  Guess next time I'll go
>over to my friends house and just get a copy of the game and if I don't like it
>then I can just erase it. No loss.

No loss...until you find that nobody's bothering to write any new software
for you to steal because they know you'll rationalize stealing it.  (I'm
using "you" here the same way you used "I" in the quoted text, not intending
to imply that the quoted poster has ever stolen any software.)

	James Jones
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: jerry@mickey (Jerry Shekhel)
Subject: Re: Oh my God! Help my friend not buy an IBM!
Organization: J. Random Misconfigured Site
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 12:15:28 GMT
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
X-Posted-From: yorvic.york.ac.uk
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

David Meiklejohn (davidme@qdpii.comp.qdpi.oz.au) wrote:
: 
: > Bash the competition along with the people that use it.
: 
: These observations are only about *most* Amiga and PC users.  I haven't seen
: anyone say that ALL PC users are ignorant, but, an awful lot of them are...
: 

I haven't seen anyone say that ALL Amiga users are arrogant, but an awful
lot of them obviously are...

: 
: David Meiklejohn (also known as davidme@qdpii.comp.qdpi.oz.au)
:

Jerry J. Shekhel				jerry@msi.com
Spending a week working in the UK!
From: jbickers@templar.actrix.gen.nz (John Bickers)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: Oh my God! Help my friend not buy an IBM!
Date: 22 Nov 92 17:21:59 PST
Organization: TAP

Quoted from <1992Nov20.121528.12870@sol.ctr.columbia.edu> by jerry@mickey (Jerry Shekhel):

> I haven't seen anyone say that ALL Amiga users are arrogant, but an awful
> lot of them obviously are...

    "Arrogant" is a word that is easily chucked around with no
    meaning, just like you're doing here.

> Jerry J. Shekhel				jerry@msi.com
--
*** John Bickers, TAP.                   jbickers@templar.actrix.gen.nz ***
***    "Radioactivity - It's in the air, for you and me" - Kraftwerk    ***
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: skip@tacky.cs.olemiss.edu (Skip Sauls)
Subject: Re: Falcon Spec's [per Comdex handouts]
Organization: University of Mississippi, Dept. of Computer Science
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 02:44:50 GMT

In article <37220@cbmvax.commodore.com> grr@cbmvax.commodore.com (George Robbins) writes:

<Falcon specs deleted>

>o Super VGA: 640x480 256 colors. [2]
>o True color 16-bit mode; allows display of up to 65536 colors.
>o Accepts external video sync signal to allow high-quality genocking.
>o Overlay-mode for easy video titling and special effects.
>o Optional overscan.
>o 262,144 possible colors. [2]
>
>[2] most folks would consider this VGA not super-VGA

Well, I'm probably asking for trouble arguing with a C= engineer :-), but
anything more than stock VGA is SVGA.  There is no real standard for SVGA
(unless you count VESA, which is a dog) and it is nearly impossible to 
write an application guaranteed to run on any SVGA board without including
a bunch of different drivers.  Windows 3.x can help, but the performance
under that pseudo-OS is so bad that it is better just to trash it.

Some of the more common SVGA resolutions are 640x400, 640x480, and 800x600
and 1024x768 in up to 256 colors, provided enough VRAM is present.  There
are a few boards with the 32k and 64k color modes, but they are even less
likely to be compatible across boards.  I've been working with a new 24bit
SVGA board at work and it will only make things worse.

So, the Falcon can claim SVGA, although it is not that super.  The AGA
Amigas can also claim SVGA, but people will wonder why there is not a
1024x768 mode and why the 800x600 mode flickers.  Oddly, the box that
my A4000 came in has check boxes for VGA and SVGA, with the SVGA box
marked.  Why?  I guess some marketdroid thought that one up.  :-)

BTW, George, is there any chance of an 040 board for the A1200?  The 040
in my A4000 could heat a room, even with that old Kawasaki cylinder head
that you guys used for a heat sink.  :-)

>George Robbins - now working for,   work:   to be avoided at all costs...
>but no way officially representing: uucp:   {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!grr
>Commodore, Engineering Department   domain: grr@cbmvax.commodore.com

Skip Sauls, Amiga Advocate
skip@tacky.cs.olemiss.edu
Organization: The Leader Desslok School of Diplomacy
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 00:55:15 EST
From: Mark 'Mark' Sachs <MBS110@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: NEWTEK: WHAT HAPPENED?

In article <1992Nov19.050929.14127@rmece49.upr.clu.edu>,
raist@rmece02.upr.clu.edu (Ricardo Hernandez) says:

>   NewTek: WHAT HAPPENED TO YOU?  I remember all your artistic and wild
>'DemoReels'....  Isn't there any 'AGA-demo reel?', any DigiView updates
>for the AGA? Since DigiView digitizes internally in 21 bits - 2.1
>million colors- just changing the software for AGA would be a snap...

>  Where's your upgrade?  No words?  Announcements?

If you want my opinion -- I think NewTek's metamorphosed into a bunch of
corporate weasels.

I would be delighted if someone could show me wrong, but I'm afraid it's
the case. They've lost their creativity, lost their spark, lost their style,
and just generally lost it.

 "But Dr. Radium, was that necessary?" "Rez, _everything_ I do is necessary."
[Your blood pressure just went up.]        Mark Sachs IS: mbs110@psuvm.psu.edu
DISCLAIMER: If PSU knew I had opinions they'd probably try to charge me for it.
From: Paula_Lieberman@amicol.UUCP (Paula Lieberman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: === 1200 Releases this Week ===
Distribution: world
Date: 15 Nov 92 16:53:31 EDT
Organization: Amiga Colony BBS

re article by Jay Philips: I knew several people who had max'ed out the
memory on A2000s!  As for people with more than 6 MB on '030 Amigas:  Leo
Norton locally is one, I've met Dave Haynie and some other Commodore
engineers, I've got some acquaintances who are Toaster users, I'm sure
Carlos Caicedo has more than 6 MB of RAM.

The point about an '030 and VM via, e.g., GigaMem, is that one does NOT
have to install lots of additional RAM to have the benefit of large amounts
of virtual memory -- with an '030 and VM, someone can run 24 bit
superbitmaps through ADPro, run Imagemasters on similarly large fiels,
etcl.  without having to  HAVE 20 or 30 MB of RAM!!


-- Via DLG Pro v0.992

Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: dconnors@gucis.cit.gu.edu.au (David Connors)
Subject: Re: Programming
Organization: Griffith University, Brisbane, Australia.
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 92 00:59:14 GMT

ccspad@sunlab1.bath.ac.uk (Paul Dale) writes:

>I deleted the poster reference because it could have been a number
>of people.
>>
>[stuff deleted]
>>But I guess it's OK for use as a learning language or a toy programming 
>>language.
>>

>I've been following this thread with some interest and this sums
>up what I think the real issue is about. It's not whether AMOS is
>good or C/asm is better, it's all about peer acceptance. AMOS users
>don't need to defend AMOS to anyone. C/asm users don't need to rubbish
>AMOS. What's the point ? It's programming snobbery, an extension of
>all the other religous type computing wars that fly around the net
>year after year to no end. 

>The type of inference above is purely an attempt at asserting superiority
>over a peer in a very public and large forum. The obvious message is
>that toy programming languages are for toy programmers, not serious
>guys. Maybe, maybe not, it *really doesn't matter*. It certainly doesn't
>contribute much to anything. Condescension like this statement (and this
>article ? :-) always provokes waste of space articles.

Consider which languages best facilitate structured programming, which
languages are supported by CASE tools and then look at C and Amos. Both of
these languages support very little in the way of formal structure. Amos
totally misses out on the idea of modularity while Assembly dips out on
data hiding. How anyone can work in either of those two is beyond me. 

Still, assembly has its applications for speed critical things, and Amos
is fun to knock up a quick game but I certainly would do any applications
programming in either.


   Dave Connors - D.Connors@sct.gu.edu.au     Griffith University, Australia
 - -- ---=-==-=================================================-==--=--- -- -
     " I'd rather have bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy. "
                               - Unknown 
 - -- ---=-==-=================================================-==--=--- -- -
From: kar5@po.CWRU.Edu (Kevin A. Roll)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mike Meyer vs. AMOS
Date: 16 Nov 1992 01:21:12 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: kar5@po.CWRU.Edu (Kevin A. Roll)
NNTP-Posting-Host: slc12.ins.cwru.edu


>The latest salvos fired by Mr. Meyer remind me of the classic division in the
>Amiga world. Most technically-inclined folks who bought Amigas can be placed
>into 2 groups:
>
>A)  People who really like Unix boxes. The Amiga isn't quite as good as a
>Unix box (to them), but it's cheaper and the OS gives it some similar
>characteristics (multitasking etc). This group dominated the Amiga scene
>from '85-'8?. Members of this group are often middle-aged professionals
>with a computer-related job. They had their first computer experience
>with mainframes or minicomputers.
>
>B) Ex 8-bitters (C64, Atari800, etc). This group was attracted to the Amiga
>not for its OS (which was buggy was hell anyway for a long time) but for its
>superior custom chips (superior at the time :-)). This group sees computers as
>the world's greatest toy, and love to hack, play games, write demos, etc.
>After the release of the A500 and subsequent success in Europe this group
>comprises the majority of Amiga programmers.

I like these categories.... why doesn't everyone send me mail and I'll
tally up how many "Type A" vs. "Type B" people we have on this board...
(I'm type B)


-- 
AMIGA///| Zeta |  / |/  | | | | | \ /  |\ | | |\ |\ \ / |
    /// | Psi  |  \ |   | |\| |\|  |   |/ | | |/ |/  |  | These are a few
\\\///  |      |  / |\  | | | | |  |   |  |_| |  |   |  | of my favorite
 \XX/   |      |  S  K  I  N   N   Y   P   U  P  P   Y  | things...
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: linville@garfield.catt.ncsu.edu (John W. Linville)
Subject: Re: Oh my God! Help my friend not buy an IBM!
Organization: Computer and Technologies Theme Program, NCSU, Raleigh
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 03:37:29 GMT

In article <1992Nov17.125650.1704@msus1.msus.edu> martin@TIGGER.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU writes:
>>I'm talking about editors, games, word processors, networking software, drawing
>>programs, etc along with clocks, calculators, etc.  I am running 31 of them
>>right this minute, and the foreground process is essentially just as responsive
>>as with almost nothing else running.
>
>
>and all the background tasks are dead in the water.... 

Well, considering that the networking software was transfering files, the games
were playing themselves, the clocks were going, and the music players were
playing, I'd say that not all of them were dead in the water.

John W. Linville


+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
|   John W. Linville                 Amateur radio:  KD4KHC                   |
|   #include "std_disclaimer.h"      E-mail:  linville@catt.ncsu.edu          |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy