From: snodgras@lclark.edu (Bil Snodgrass)
Subject: Re: Gays in the Military..what nobody is talking about:
Organization: Lewis & Clark College, Portland OR
Distribution: usa
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1992 15:51:04 GMT

In article <1992Nov21.144901.17238@athena.cs.uga.edu> tedr@athena.cs.uga.edu (Ted Kalivoda) writes:
>In article <1992Nov18.223342.11374@galileo.physics.arizona.edu> krueger@galileo.physics.arizona.edu (Ted Krueger) writes:
>
>>Now we get to the real reason why gays want to be in the military.  They 
>>want to take showers with men so they can see a bunch of naked men's 
>>bodies.  Get a clue!  The reason why men do not shower with women is 
>>because the women feel self conscious.  This is also why gays should 
>>not shower with straights.  The straights will feel self conscious.  But 
>>oh!  I forgot!  Straights are not a minority, so their feelings are not 
>>taken into account.
>>
>>Ted

We already shower with naked heterosexual men, in high school, gyms, and
the military......  Get real!  

It is easy for me to draw the line sexually as a Gay man, to know when
someone says he is het. to respect that line.....It seems like the hets.
though are worried about their gray area on the topic manner....

>
>I do think Ted has something here...something the top media folks have not
>discussed to my knowledge, and especially I do not see any headlines in
>papers over the issue.  


Is is a real issue?  This already is happening.  We also go to the same
bathroom as het. men.....surprised?  If a heterosexual is hit upon 
sexually by a homosexual then perhaps the hete. male could charge 
sexual harrasement on the Gay man?  

>
>	*Sexual Attraction:  Men do not shower with women in the military
>because of various reasons, one of them being because of sexual attraction. 

The reason is because hete. men have a hard time controlling themselves, look
at all the rapes they are involved with when it comes to women....Oh 
you are a Rush fan, I forgot, rape is a myth brought on by the feminazies!!!

>Analogously, why would one want to allow for Men who are sexually attracted
>to Men shower together? 

WE are already there.

 The common response to this question is, "Give me a
>break, sex is not the complete focus of gay men, and they have much sense
>than to stare at other men sexually in the showers."  

Sexual harassement I tell you.  The guy being stared at can claim 
sexual harassment on the job.


>	Pat Schroeder responded this way on a national news show, but why
>did no one ask her, "Well Pat, how would you feel if 20 men took a shower
>next to you?"  From a straigt perspective, this is quite analogous.

This is so stupid.  I mean women are taught that way.  Look at the difference
between most women's public showers and men's public showers.  The women 
many a times have doors or curtins.  Men...we have open spaces for miles.
We are taught not to be uncomfortable in the showers with other men.

  The
>straigt man feels a bit conscious about being looked upon in a sexual manner
>by another man.

Get use to it.  It is alright for your leader, Rush baby, to make
comments about women in a sexual manner, but not men on men.  One
of my favorite things is to be behind a cute guy on the street who
turns me on and have him turned on by a woman in front of him who he
is staring at......it is so ironic, this double standard!!!

  Now, another anology...how would you straight men feel if
>you took an open shower along with 20 young women?

Again this is a social thing......instilled on all of us in our
societies attempt at double standards for men and women.

  From the gay
>perspective, it must be an apporpriate analogy.  When we begin to look at it
>from this perspective, can we not see the difficulties that come to bear?
>

Well I go to plenty Gay bathrooms and have nothing sexual turning me on!
I go to gay showers and behave myself (gyms not baths).  Hey a shower is
a shower unless it is with my lover.  Gay men do not like men just because
they have a dick.  Straight men think that is all it takes for us
to turn on.  Well it isn't...


When I lived in Europe I would quiet often be in places where men and
women shared bathrooms...no problem.  I know of dorms on college campuses
where women and men share bathrooms...I think some of you guys out
there are really worried you would like to be played with in the
shower.  Well don't worry I am not volunteering!!

>====================================          
>Ted Kalivoda (tedr@athena.cs.uga.edu)
>University of Georgia
>UCNS/Institute of Higher Ed. 
>
>


Bil Snodgrass III
Newsgroups: alt.rush-limbaugh,talk.abortion