HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: epperly@valeron.che.wisc.edu (Tom Epperly)
Subject: Re: New poll results
Organization: University of Wisconsin-Madison, Chemical Engineering
Date: 3 Sep 92 08:39:12
In-reply-to: bu008@cleveland.Freenet.Edu's message of 3 Sep 1992 07:34:18 GMT

In article <184f5qINNqqe@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> bu008@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Brandon D. Ray) writes:

   From: bu008@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Brandon D. Ray)
   Newsgroups: alt.politics.marrou
   Date: 3 Sep 1992 07:34:18 GMT


   [deleted a long message asking how we can get libertarian
   candidates included in public opinion polling]

   Could the LP possibly commission its own polls?  How mcuu
   How much does it cost?  

What about organizing a poll using this newgroups?  We could have
volunteers from around the country(hopefully) call some number of
people randomly selected from their phone book and report the results
via email to someone who will tally the results.  Is there someone out
there who knows how to do polling accurately who could help with this
idea?  Who knows we might even be able to get help from supporters of
the other candidates as long as they agree to report all replies.

				Tom
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom Epperly	University of Wisconsin-Madison		Chemical Engineering
(608) 262-8264	epperly@osnome.che.wisc.edu		Graduate Student
Member of the League for Programming Freedom(fighting software monopolies)
	For more info contact me or league@prep.ai.mit.edu
If you feel you must flame, please send email rather than posting.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: josh@planchet.rutgers.edu (J Storrs Hall)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.marrou
Subject: Re: patents and copyrights
Date: 29 Aug 92 21:43:01 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

ctm@ardi.com (Clifford T. Matthews) writes:

>... the "intellectual property rights"
>are not rights at all, in fact, "intellectual property" isn't property either.

>...let it be known, there are *some* libertarians who are quite thoroughly
>opposed to government granted monopolies, even when said monopolies pad
>said libertarians paychecks ...

Intellectual property rights are an incredibly interesting issue for
the libertarian philosophy, and I'm surprized there isn't more discussion
of them.  Personally, I'm in a similar position to Cliff, where I'm
a person whose living depends on the trade in ideas and inventions,
but who opposes patents.  I'm not so sure I oppose copyrights,
but I don't support them in their current form, either.  They are
the *major* roadblock to the Electronic Library of the Future.

Perhaps some scheme like Xanadu where one has right to income from
a work but not the right to prevent (apparent) copying.

--j
From: REE700A@MAINE.MAINE.EDU
Newsgroups: alt.politics.marrou
Subject: Re: Fully Informed Jury Association (Pamphlet)
Date: 1 Sep 92 14:00:16 GMT
Organization: University of Maine System


  I suppose there is such a possible (ok - probable) problem with FIJA.
But NAZI Germany had no such law to my knowledge, and still had such a
problem!  No law or lack thereof can truely and completely alter human
behavior.  Only the will of the "majority" to do what is "right"
(whatever that means) and the consequent social pressures on others
can have any consistent and lasting effect on human behavior.
  It has been stated (Heinlein ?) that the rate of social decay can
be measured by the rate of legislation...   I agree.  You can not
legislate proper behavior.

  Back to your example, before that happens, maybe the "niggers"
better get bigger guns <grin>.  Seriously, although this is a
valid concern and I'm not a sociologist, I have to believe that we are
at least beyond condoning such behavior, if not performing it.
   Jeff Andle
From: bu008@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Brandon D. Ray)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.marrou
Subject: Re: New poll results
Date: 3 Sep 1992 07:34:18 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: slc5.ins.cwru.edu


[deleted a long message asking how we can get libertarian
candidates included in public opinion polling]
 
Could the LP possibly commission its own polls?  How mcuu
How much does it cost?  

Newsgroups: alt.politics.marrou,alt.politics.clinton,alt.politics.bush,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.elections,talk.politics.misc
From: tom@genie.slhs.udel.edu (tom)
Subject: Re: PETITIONING WORK TO BE DONE - 39 LIBERTARIAN STATES
Organization: The Lab Rats
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 20:16:28 GMT

In article <mjc.715010074@NL.CS.CMU.EDU> mjc+@cs.cmu.edu (Monica Cellio) writes:

}Why the difference?  Do different states apply more stringent criteria to
}declare a signature valid?  Is the process more prone to errors in some
}states?  Is someone just making up these numbers?

i think the normal target is 40% more than required. but yes, some
states have stricted criteria than others. i think the states where we
are only looking for 20% more do not verify the signatures (other than 
counting) unless someone challenges the petition in which the challenger
has to pay to have them checked.
-- 
tom@udel.edu                                        ...!{gateway}!udel!tom
tom@genie.slhs.udel.edu           UDel: School of Life and Health Sciences

"Themes were useless; Destiny was here, and the foot pedals were bleeding."
Newsgroups: alt.politics.marrou,talk.politics.misc
From: yee@mipgsun.mipg.upenn.edu (Conway Yee)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.marrou
Subject: Re: Closing Bookstores?
Date: 2 Sep 92 21:19:49 GMT
Distribution: pa
Organization: University of Pennsylvania

tsf@CS.CMU.EDU (Timothy Freeman) writes:
>From Clarinet I hear that Attorney General Preate has closed some gay
>bookstores in PA because they violate state law.  Does anyone
>know which state law?  This sounds like an opportunity for another
>press release, although I don't have the enthusiasm to write it
>myself.

If this is the case I am aware of then it was in Philadelphia.  What
happened was that several adult bookstores were closed because of
"anonymous gay sex" in the video booths.  This was supposedly a move
to protect us from the spread of AIDS.  Apparently, gay men would
stick their penises through knotholes in the booths and get either
oral or anal sex.  I don't know about the rest of you, but I have
never seen a penis stuck at me when in a booth nor do I have recall
seeing a knothole.



-- 
411 Blockley Hall      |                    Conway Yee, N2JWQ
418 Service Drive      | yee@ming.mipg.upenn.edu    (preferred)
Philadelphia, PA 19104 | cy5@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (forwarded to above)
(215) 662-6780         |
From: gak@wrs.com (Richard Stueven)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.marrou
Subject: Re: Platforms compared:  R, D, L
Date: 28 Aug 92 20:32:35 GMT
Reply-To: gak@wrs.com
Organization: Wind River Systems, Inc.

Where can I find an on-line copy of the Republican platform?  I already
have the Libertarian and Democratian platforms.  If any other parties
have theirs available, I'd like to see them as well...

thx

gak			Der Herr Buergermeister gibt bekannt, dass ab
gak@wrs.com		Donnerstag Bier gebraut wird und deshalb ab
attmail!gakhaus!gak	Mittwoch nicht mehr in den Bach geschissen
107/H/3&4		werden darf.
From: sulkom@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Philandros)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.marrou
Subject: Re: Marrou and Avatar?
Date: 1 Sep 92 22:47:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <1992Aug30.234839.6620@usenet.ins.cwru.edu>, bu008@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Brandon D. Ray) writes...
> 
> 
>I don't know how much truth there is in what follows; maybe
>someone here can enlighten me.
> 
>A friend of mine who is a counselor specializing in rehab and
>readjustment of people who have been psychologically terrorized
>and conditioned by various "cults", such as the Moonies.  She
>recently told me that a colleague has passed on to her a brochure
>for a group called Avatar.
> 
>She is not sure whether Avatar fits into the definition of the
>cult that is commonly used in her professional community; it is
>hard to tell from just one brochure.  However, she says that a
>lot of the claims made in the brochure, the language used, the
>principles espoused, make it sound like one.
> 
>Included in the brochure is a list of notable public figures who 
>have gone through this group's training, and Andre Marrou is
>listed as having attained the "highest degree of enlightenment".
> 
>My friend finds this potentially disturbing, and so do I...if it
>is true.  Does anyone know what sort of an organization Avatar is?
>Does anyone know if Andre Marrou is associated with them?  As I 
>say, neither I nor my friend are convinced, as yet, that this is
>a dangerous, mind-control type of group.  She notes that it does
>not appear among the 3,000 such groups listed in her professional
>references, so it must be a fairly new group if it does, in fact,
>fall in this category.
> 
>Anyone have any info?

	Yes.  This is absolute nonsense.  I would be willing to bet
money that "Avatar" doesn't exist.  It is probably the product of
people who want to discredit Andre.  This sort of thing has happened
before.  The culprits could be other third party members, LaRouchies,
Objectivists, or others.

	Please, don't believe anything that can't be substantiated.


Mark Sulkowski
Newsgroups: alt.politics.marrou,alt.politics.clinton,alt.politics.bush,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.elections,talk.politics.misc
From: mjc+@cs.cmu.edu (Monica Cellio)
Subject: Re: PETITIONING WORK TO BE DONE - 39 LIBERTARIAN STATES
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 13:54:34 GMT

I'm curious about how the numbers are calculated for the number of raw
signatures required in each state.  Look at the following numbers:

>              required   collected   est. to go   deadline
>               (valid)      (raw)       (raw)

> Alaska          2035         600        3400      lawsuit
> Minnesota       2000        1200        1800      Sep 15
> Rhode Island    1000         900        1100      Sep 4
> North Dakota    4000        4400         600      Sep 4

In Alaska and Rhode Island, we are looking for approximinately twice the 
number of valid signautres.  In Minnesota we're only looking for half again,
and in North Dakota we're only looking for 20% over.

Why the difference?  Do different states apply more stringent criteria to
declare a signature valid?  Is the process more prone to errors in some
states?  Is someone just making up these numbers?

Monica
From: REE700A@MAINE.MAINE.EDU
Newsgroups: alt.politics.marrou
Subject: Re: patents and copyrights
Date: 27 Aug 92 15:11:31 GMT
Organization: University of Maine System


   Although Cliff could certainly make a convincing arguement against
patents & copyrights in general, and government support of them in
particular, I would not agree in the total demise of this system.  In
high tech, a company or individual (depending on their resources) can
tie up years of personal effort and expenses on a project that is
fundamentally different from anything previously done.  Without patent
protection, any Joe off the street can steal this intellectual property
and reap the profits instead of the creator, just by swift marketing.
   Although I agree that the government is the worst place for such
protection to come from, I maintain that some form of protection is
necessary.  Perhaps the patent could be replaced by the shotgun as a means
of protecting property? <grin>  I do not believe that anyone owns
nature (or whatever you want to call an existing or physically possible
arrangement of matter), however, some short-term protection of process
must be allowed.

   Jeff Andle,   Dept of Electrical Engineering & Lab. for Surface
                 Science and Technology,  U. Maine, Orono, ME.
From: v113mg59@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Ronald T Coslick Jr)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.marrou
Subject: Communitarianism
Date: 28 Aug 92 02:06:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41


What do you diehard libertarians think of the Communitarian 
movement now afoot?

If you haven't heard about it, check out articles in the Village 
Voice ("The Communitarian Manifesto," Aug. 18) and Utne Reader 
("Communitarian Manifesto," July/Aug '92).  Interesting that both 
of these essentialy leftist publications picked up on the 
linguistic similarity of "communitarian" and "communist".
(Not that I mean this to imply anything negative, but every 
healthy cynic knows how important names and slogans are today).

Communitarians feel that many of our nation's problems are the  
result of an overemphasis on individual rights which has lead to 
selfish and destructive behavior.  They attack the left for what 
they call "rights rhetoric", and the right for pushing capitalism 
which promotes self interest over community interest.  As the 
Village Voice said, communitarianism is an attack on both the 
'70s and the '80s, a movement which attempts to unify people of 
both bents by resolving fundamental idealogical conflicts between 
our two dominant political philosophies, all for the good of our 
"community".

Personally I think these people have come up with the wrong 
solutions to the right problems.  Anyone who can call a 
population of over 250 million a community simply is not being
realistic.  We do not have a single common interest.  We have not 
acheived successful truly successful governance in our society 
because we have not yet learned how to accomodate diversity in 
our population.  In my opinion, a step away from individual 
rights is a step in the wrong direction.  Many more of our 
problems would be solved by an educated and unbiased application 
of the harm principle to individual and governmental actions than 
by rallying the white middle class around the false notion that 
we are all one big happy family.

==============
RoN
v113mg59@ubvms.bitnet
Newsgroups: alt.politics.marrou
From: mlee@esd.dl.nec.com (Michael Lee)
Subject: PETITIONING WORK TO BE DONE - 39 LIBERTARIAN STATES
Organization: NEC America, Engineering & Support
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 17:39:56 GMT

Joe Dehn <Joe.Dehn@f418.n104.z1.fidonet.org>

27 Aug 92  06:40:24



        STATUS OF PETITIONING FOR MARROU/LORD TICKET

States where petitioning is going on or could be going on [5]:

              required   collected   est. to go   deadline
               (valid)      (raw)       (raw)

 Alaska          2035         600        3400      lawsuit
 Minnesota       2000        1200        1800      Sep 15
 Rhode Island    1000         900        1100      Sep 4
 North Dakota    4000        4400         600      Sep 4
 New York       15000       27000           0*     Aug 27
                                       ------
                                         6900


States where petitions have been submitted but we do not have confirmation of
sufficiency from the state [7]:

 Colorado, Connecticut, D.C., Kentucky, Missouri, Ohio, Virginia

States where no more petition-related work needs to be done to put
   Marrou/Lord ticket on the ballot [39]:

 Alabama, Arizona, Arkansas, California, Delaware, Florida, Georgia,
 Hawaii, Idaho, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Louisiana, Maine,
 Maryland, Massachusetts, Michigan, Mississippi, Montana, Nebraska, Nevada,
 New Hampshire, New Jersey, New Mexico, North Carolina, Oklahoma,
 Oregon, Pennsylvania, South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas,
 Utah, Vermont, Washington, West Virginia, Wisconsin, Wyoming
From: atfurman@cup.portal.com (A T Furman)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.marrou
Subject: Re: Fully Informed Jury Association (Pamphlet)
Date: Wed,  2 Sep 92 00:37:34 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
  <92245.100016REE700A@MAINE.MAINE.EDU>

Even though the jury has its roots in British-Saxon tribal law of
many centuries back, Germany in modern times has never had true
jury trials.

If you can get hold of _Hitler's Justice: The Courts of the Third
Reich_ by Ingo Moller (Harvard U. Press), in a library, say, there is
an introductory chapter by the translator that gives an overview of
the German court system.

The book is interesting in its own right, as a warning of how an
entire system of courts and law schools can become terminally corrupt.
You will learn how severe prison overcrowding in 1933 led to the
construction of Dachau.  "Concentration camp" was originally a
euphemism.  With someone promising to deal with prison overcrowding
here by means of "boot camps", it grows more relevant by the day...


    Alan T. Furman         | VOTE LIBERTARIAN!!  Marrou/Lord in 92!!
---------------------------+----------------------------------------
  atfurman@cup.portal.sig  |   (800)682-1776 for more information
From: josh@planchet.rutgers.edu (J Storrs Hall)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.marrou
Subject: Re: Why waste your vote?
Date: 26 Aug 92 04:29:23 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

rdubbs@cs.tamu.edu (Roger B. Dubbs III) writes:

>In article <Aug.24.21.55.59.1992.22903@foglet.rutgers.edu> josh@foglet.rutgers.edu (J Storrs Hall) writes:
>>So why does anybody vote in the first place?  After all, even if I
>>knew that one of the candidates would definitely give me one million
>>dollars if he were elected, it would only be worth one dollar for me
>>to vote for him. 

>Seems like my vote is worth $1M to me.  Especially if it is a dead heat.
>I just don't follow your $'s analogy.  Perhaps it is worth only $1 to
>the candidate?  Please explain.

Because your vote only has one chance in a million of affecting the
outcome.  Its like buying one of a million lottery tickets in a lottery
that pays a million dollars.  You could be sure of winning the prize
if you bought all the tickets, which means that if the tickets are 
one dollar each, you will come out exactly even.

Remember that you only have one chance in a million of affecting the
outcome; that means that if you don't vote at all, you still have 
a 499,999/999,999 chance of getting the million dollars.

Also remember that this is only for a dead heat; for an election where
the best polls are even a few percent skewed, your chances are *really*
tiny.

To put these numbers in somewhat gruesome perspective, your chances 
of affecting the outcome if you vote for an M.P.C are the same order of 
magnitude as those of being killed by lightning in a given year, while
the Libertarian vote is similarly comparable to being killed in an
automobile accident.

>If neither candidate troubles you (or they are equally bad) then a vote
>for the third party does make sense.  I am unsure the same is true if
>there is a lesser evil.

Again, even in a dead heat, your vote is so unlikely to affect the 
outcome that you almost certainly would have had a greater beneficial
effect by using the same time instead of voting, say, writing a letter 
to the editor of your local newspaper (or to Usenet!).

-j
From: potter@silver.usna.navy.mil (Mr. Jeff Potter (CADIG  STAFF))
Newsgroups: alt.politics.marrou
Subject: Voting for the enemy...
Date: 28 Aug 92 14:04:12 GMT
Organization: U. S. Naval Academy, Annapolis, MD
Originator: potter@usna


   Why vote for the enemy! If Adolf Hitler and Joseph Stalin are
the main line candidates and you know that your Libertarian
candidate could not win, would you still choose the 'lesser of 2
evils'? If you have any personal integrity at all you must vote
with your heart, win, lose or humiliation. Voting for someone
that you are philosophically opposed to is like prostituting your
integrity to the "voting majority". 
   I am convinced that no matter which of the two big candidates
win taxes will still be raised, and big brother will continue to
grow. This is the reality of pork barrel politics. At least if
you vote for the person representing the platform that you truly
believe in you will be able to sleep at night. The more Libertarians
that do this the more chance there will be that Libertarianism will
continue to grow.
   Don't follow the crowd. 

 Jeff
Newsgroups: alt.politics.marrou,alt.politics.clinton,alt.politics.bush,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.elections,talk.politics.misc
From: goldm@rpi.edu (Mitchell E. Gold)
Subject: Re: PETITIONING WORK TO BE DONE - 39 LIBERTARIAN STATES
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 20:11:51 GMT

How many petition signatures have been collected in total for the LP? Is it
over 100,000?
  -- Mitch Gold, sundance@rpi.edu
 
Newsgroups: alt.politics.marrou
From: tom@genie.slhs.udel.edu (tom)
Subject: Re: Fully Informed Jury Association (Pamphlet)
Organization: The Lab Rats
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 20:52:47 GMT

In article <1992Sep1.110729.16383@usenet.ins.cwru.edu> bu008@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Brandon D. Ray) writes:

}I am essentially sympathetic to
}the FIJA movement, but I have one *major* reservation:  What
}is the remedy if a jury decides that it shouldn't be a crime for
}white people to lynch niggers?  How does the state then carry out
}its responsibility to protect the individual rights of its black
}citizens?

i share your concerns about avoiding such obvious failures of the
justice system to function properly, but keep in mind that as jurors
WE ALREADY HAVE the power to nullify law. FIJA would not do anything
except make this fact more commonly known. since such incidents
are not very common now, i doubt that they would become a serious
problem. there are several mechanisms in place to prevent it.

consider the above scenario again: we have a klansman or similar racist
on trial for "lynching" a black person. there is probably at least one
felony charge such as assault with a deadly weapon, or battery being
brought against them. most people take crimes like this fairly seriously.

a jury will be selected from among the registered voters of the community.
if the area consists exclusively of white racists, the prosecution would
be insane not to move for a change of venue to a more demographically
normal area. if this isn't granted, it is probably grounds for an
appeal. next, the judge and attorneys for both sides get to question
potential jurors and reject some of them. if you still somehow manage to
get a 12 jurors who unanimously vote to acquit, then the system is so
corrupt it can't be fixed -- find everyone involved in trying the case and
shoot them!

if the jury can't reach a unanimous verdict of guilty (ie. a split
decision), the case will be tried again.

-- 
tom@udel.edu                                        ...!{gateway}!udel!tom
tom@genie.slhs.udel.edu           UDel: School of Life and Health Sciences
Libertarian candidate for Delaware House of Representatives, 23rd District

Newsgroups: alt.politics.marrou
From: tom@genie.slhs.udel.edu (tom)
Subject: Re: Platforms compared:  R, D, L
Organization: The Lab Rats
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 19:42:55 GMT

In article <1992Aug27.175113.21000@bnlux1.bnl.gov> bam@bnlux1.bnl.gov (Bruce A. Martin) writes:

}This was posted in other newsgroups but not here.
}(Part of the media blackout? 1/2 ;-)
}((No, just a result of it.))

i followed up an article that was posted to a.p.elections, and the bush
& clinton groups comparing just the D&R platforms. i didn't add
a.p.marrou because the last crossposted articles here started flame wars
that are mostly irrelevant to the marrou/lord campaign or libertarianism.

besides, everyone here has probably seen our platform before. and i
suspect that most of us read other groups now and then.
-- 
tom@udel.edu                                        ...!{gateway}!udel!tom
tom@genie.slhs.udel.edu           UDel: School of Life and Health Sciences

"Themes were useless; Destiny was here, and the foot pedals were bleeding."
Newsgroups: alt.politics.marrou,alt.politics.clinton,alt.politics.bush,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.elections,talk.politics.misc