From: dadams@cherry.cray.com (David Adams)
Subject: Sourdough Digest
Followup-To: dadams@cray.com (David Adams)
Originator: dadams@cherry
Organization: Cray Research, Inc.
Date: 10 Apr 92 15:52:56 CDT


Someone suggested that I should try posting the weekly digests
from the sourdough mailing list.  I thought I could do it on
a trial basis and see if it was well recieved.




DATE: 03/30/92
TIME: 13:45:22
Subject: rising

From: abirenbo@rigel.hac.com (Aaron Birenboim)

   Do most of you use a bakers yeast to rise sourdough breads,
or can/should I depend on the sourdough culture for rising.

  aaron


Editor:
	Since I often throw in the first $0.02, many of use religiously
	avoid comercial active dry yeast when cooking with sourdough.
	Comercial bakers yeast will speed up the process, but you 
	pay in terms of flavor and texture.  This bias in philosophy
	shows up in the FAQ files.  (At least the ones I wrote.)

DATE: 03/30/92
TIME: 16:38:43
Subject: Re:  rising

From: crs@beta.lanl.gov (Charlie Sorsby)

> From: abirenbo@rigel.hac.com (Aaron Birenboim)
> 
>    Do most of you use a bakers yeast to rise sourdough breads,
> or can/should I depend on the sourdough culture for rising.
> 
>   aaron
> 
> 
> Editor:
> 	Since I often throw in the first $0.02, many of use religiously
> 	avoid comercial active dry yeast when cooking with sourdough.
> 	Comercial bakers yeast will speed up the process, but you 
> 	pay in terms of flavor and texture.  This bias in philosophy
> 	shows up in the FAQ files.  (At least the ones I wrote.)

Here's another 0.02:

Me too...  I will use commercial yeast or I will use sourdough
starter but not together.

Best,

Charlie "Older than dirt" Sorsby				"I'm the NRA!"
	  crs@lanl.gov


DATE: 03/31/92
TIME: 09:33:32
Subject:  Science and Lore

From: Michael Cerreto <mcerreto@BBN.COM>

Not alot of new info; but interesting nonetheless. There is a great deal
more factual matter of general interest to bakers that I hope to quote soon.
After borrowing this book from the library and bringing it to work, 
two co-workers and myself went to the local bookstore and each purchased a 
copy!


>From the wonderfully informative text:

	On Food and Cooking; the Science and Lore of the Kitchen

		by Harold McGee

		Sour Breads   page 313

	Sourness in bread was long considered a serious defect, usually
the result of poor yeast or letting the fermentation stage go on too long.
In poorer areas of northern Europe, where rye bread was the rule, sourness
was more acceptable. 

	Sourdough bread proper, the wheat bread associated with San Francisco, 
is another story, though it also begins with a kind of deprivation. Gold miners
in California and Alaska did not have access to fresh supplies of yeast and had
to revert to the ancient method of using a piece of leftover dough to start 
each new fermentation. Eventually, the "mother-dough", or "starter", would come
to be dominated by the microflora characteristic of the local area: 
contamination by airborne spores would dilute the initial yeast population.
Breads with different mothers, then, would have different compositions. This
may explain why it is reputedly difficult to keep sourdough starters from
"deteriorating", or changing microbial content, when they are brought to other
parts of the country. Chicago's atmosphere is just not the same as 
San Francisco's.

	A group of Bay Area scientists has analyzed the microflora of sourdough
and come up with some interesting results. To begin with, the predominant yeast
in sourdough is not the usual baker's yeast, Saccharomyces cerevisae, but rather
Saccharomyces exiguus (exiguus means small or scanty; cerevisiae means 
"of beer"), which thrives in very acidic environments and, unlike baker's yeast,
cannot metabolize maltose at all. The acid responsible for the sour taste - 
about 75% is lactic acid, the rest acetic - is produced by a group of bacteria
that has an absolute requirement for maltose and so would be unlikely to grow
in a dough populated by baker's yeast. The several strains of bacteria involved
are all very closely related to each other but not to any other known species,
and so the investigators have dubbed them Lactobacillus sanfrancisco. They do
best at a temperature of about 86 degrees F, 30 degrees C, and a PH of 3.8 and 
4.5 (ordinary bread is more like 5.5). Starters that have been maintained for 
decades appear to be very resistant to contamination, and it is thought that 
some sort of antibiotic action, analogous to that of the Penicillium molds in
cheese, may be involved.


	

DATE: 03/31/92
TIME: 09:44:40
Subject: Re:  rising

From: Cheryl Valentine <oopcv@trex.oscs.montana.edu>

I was recently given a sample of 100-year-old starter.  Curiously enough,
I ran across a recipe last night that calls for 3 cups of starter.

Now, my question:  is it true that feeding a starter more than 1 or 2 cups of
flour at a time will kill it?  Can I take my 3/4 cup of starter and feed it all
three cups of flour + water at once?  I'm afraid if I kill the 100-year-old
sample it'll feel like murder--came across with the pioneers, y'know!

Cheryl

Editor:
	You can always grow it in stages, no?  I mean add 2 cups of flour
	and three cups of water (which is enough for any recipe I've ever
	needed) and then when it has grown some add more flour and water.
	(I would think you could add a gallon at that point.)

	When I am reviving a culture I always start with a very small
	amount of water and flour like about 1/2 cup of each.  When
	that gets going good I add more stuff.

DATE: 03/31/92
TIME: 16:40:11
DATE: 03/31/92
TIME: 16:40:18
Subject: packaged yeast vs. sourdough

From: Lawrence Allen Hite <lah1l@dayhoff.med.Virginia.EDU>

> 
> From: crs@beta.lanl.gov (Charlie Sorsby)
> 
> > From: abirenbo@rigel.hac.com (Aaron Birenboim)
> > 
> >    Do most of you use a bakers yeast to rise sourdough breads,
> > or can/should I depend on the sourdough culture for rising.
> > 
> >   aaron
> > 
> > 
> > Editor:
> > 	Since I often throw in the first $0.02, many of use religiously
> > 	avoid comercial active dry yeast when cooking with sourdough.
> > 	Comercial bakers yeast will speed up the process, but you 
> > 	pay in terms of flavor and texture.  This bias in philosophy
> > 	shows up in the FAQ files.  (At least the ones I wrote.)
> 
> Here's another 0.02:
> 
> Me too...  I will use commercial yeast or I will use sourdough
> starter but not together.
> 

Well, I never add packaged yeast to my sourdough, but then again I don't use
packaged yeast anymore (so I guess the point's moot!).  The way I figure it,
when I bake something I'll plan it out far enough in advance that I don't
need to get it finished three hours after I start.  I don't need the speed of
commercial yeast.  I now routinely use the starter when baking for two
reasons.  First, why pay for those packages of yeast when you already have
an abundant supply, and second, by universally using my sourdough starter
it gets fed more often and I run less risk of having it become overrun with
a commercial strain of yeast (because it simply isn't in my kitchen).  When
I don't necessarily need that sourdough taste I simply don't let the second
proof go for as long.  The only problem is in cutting down on the liquid
from some recipes.  If the recipe calls for no water, then you have to cut
down on milk (or whatever).  I sometimes worry about adversely affecting
taste or texture but nothing's come out inedible yet :-).

Larry Hite
lah1l@virginia.edu