From: rescorla@rtnmr.chem.yale.edu (Eric Rescorla)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting,alt.discrimination,chi.general,alt.atheism,alt.politics.homosexuality
Subject: Re: BofA and UW can now support discrimination against blacks and Jews
Date: 8 Sep 92 23:13:03 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Rescorla for himself.

In article <pjt2nhg@zola.esd.sgi.com> livesey@solntze.esd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:
>In article <1992Sep8.144802.4475@cs.yale.edu>, rescorla@rtnmr.chem.yale.edu (Eric Rescorla) writes:
>|> In article <pit07d0@zola.esd.sgi.com> livesey@solntze.esd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:
>|> You would wish, would you not, that I try to obtain for you
>|> medical attention?
>
>There is a big difference between getting a qualified person to
>help, and insisting on helping yourself.
>
>I have no objection if someone wants to pray for me.   It's 
>when they want to coerce me to accept their help that I object.
There are some who would see forcing you to see a psychiatrist
in order to be "cured" as getting a qualified person to help.


>|> >    And the fact that you would want 
>|> >help in one situation does not let you assume that others
>|> >would want help in that situation, or qualify you to offer 
>|> >help.
>|>
>|> Then one is failing to apply the golden rule, Mr. Livesey.
>|> It states, quite clearly that one is to DO UNTO OTHERS AS YOU
>|> WOULD HAVE THEM DO UNTO YOU.
>
>But that's the whole point.   Unless you say "I would want help
>from any malicious or incompetent person who decides to interfere"
>then you are not doing unto others as you would have them do unto
>you.
No, Mr. Livesey. What a Christian would most likely say would
be "I would want Christians to try to save me." Which is,
naturally what they would be doing when they try to "help"
gay people.

>When you cut through the crap, the real problem with your argument
>is your formulation of the Golden Rule.  Instead of "Do unto others 
>as you would have them do unto you" you want it to say "If you
>claim to be willing to accept coercion in your own life, you may
>coerce other people".
I believe that that is what it implies, Mr. Livesey.

>But this is a hoax, for the people who claim "If I were Gay,
>I would want someone to make me straight" are *not* Gay.  They
>are not in the situation in which they claim they would want to
>be coerced, and never will be.
Irrelevant. Noone will ever be in precisely the same
situation as anyone else. The entire point of the Golden
rule is to have you put yourself in the position of another.
The question is what prescription one follows for doing this.
You and Mr. Webb propose one. I propose another.

>It's a bit like the Grand Inquisitor saying "If I were a 
>heretic, I would want them to burn me" or a Nazi saying "If
>I were a Jew I would want them to gas me".    But the Grand
>Inquisitor is *not* a heretic, and the Nazi is *not* a Jew,
>so their appeal to the Golden rule is not being made in good
>faith.
Actually, it's precisely like it.
Which is part of why I think the Golden Rule is pretty close to
useless. 
I simply don't agree that it's not being made in "good faith."
In fact, I have no clue what you mean by "In good faith". Please,
be so good as to prescribe a decision procedure.

I don't see what's any less legitimate about saying
"If I were gay I would want to be "cured"".
than saying
"If I were gay I would not want to be "cured"".

Please explain.
-Ekr








-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eric Rescorla, DoD#431 (Nighthawk S)              rescorla@rtnmr.chem.yale.edu
Former chemist now CM400 mechanic                 ekr@eitech.com(preferred)
                       I will hack Unix for food.
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