From: terryk@encore.com (Terence M. Kelleher)
Subject: Re: Rebuttal/Anecdote/Respect!
Organization: Encore Computer Corporation
Date: 10 Apr 92 09:51:58


In article <lomasm.702837921@p4.cs.man.ac.uk> lomasm@p4.cs.man.ac.uk (M91) writes:

   The debate-cum-flamewar-cum-vitriol has been fun and in some
   cases very amusing. However, I'm disappointed in the lack of
   intelligence shown for conducting/concluding the arguments -
   especially considering the self proclaimed super-intelligence
   of one of the contestants.

Arguments can be like television programming.  They drop to the lowest
level of participant rather than rising to the highest, or even up to
the average.

Personally, I would not consider the upper 2% to be
"super-intelligence".  I do not consider myself in the same
intellectual leauge with Albert Einstein, Buckminster Fuller or
Richard Feynman.  If I was only in the top 2% in baseball skill, that
would not get me a place on the bench of a AA farm team.  

   The present multiple threads of (intelligent?) abuse and "you
   said so-and-so and meant so-and-so" is of little value,
   childish, and proves that Mensa does not mean maturity, good
   sense, or `being logical'. Is it that "intelligence is inversely
   proportional to high passions (and multiple mega-flaming)"
   an excuse?   (Evidence required ofcourse :-)

I would not make the assumption that intelligence and high passions
relate.  I think it would be more valid to assume that those of less
passion just don't want to jump into a flame war.  Seems like good
judgement on their part.

No, Mensa does not mean maturity or good sense.  The criteria is quite
restricted.  You need a good test score.  Nobody is asked to prove
that they are the masters of their own minds to join.

   ********************************************************************

   I am very interested in all the protagonists summarising their
   views (coherently in less than 99 lines each), with some indication
   of hard evidence where necessary (or if just personal views).

   ********************************************************************

- As a Member of Mensa, I take it personally that the group is accused
of racial discrimination.  This accusation has come base only on 1-
Anecdotal information regarding the racial makeup of the group and 2-
References to studies done in the early 1960's on the cultural
fairness of intellegence tests.  

In response to 1:
Even if real facts were presented to back this up, it does not imply
that Mensa activly discourages membership to anybody based on race.

A am the publicist for testing and membership for the "Mensa of the
Southern Tier of New York" local group.  I have been given no
instructions by the group to avoid advertising to minority groups.  I
send test notices to radio stations and newspapers that specifically
target minority listeners and readers, and also a newspaper
specifically targetted to women.  I believe this demonstrates a active
attempt to avoid discrimination of women and racial minorities.

In response to 2:
I am in no position to judge these tests, but it appears from their
posted credentials, people who should know these issues very well have
sufficiantly rebuked this accusation.

   ** NOTE: `Personal views/feelings' are acceptable. **
   ... we are Human after all!

   My respect for some on this net is now very low, and my opinion of
   Mensa unchanged from the `bunch of childish elitists' stereotype.

Mensa is not immune from "childish elitists".  Just because they are
louder than the voice of reason, it does not follow that they are in
the majority.

   You have your chance to redeem yourselves and possibly even convince
   me that Mensa is worth joining.

I would not suggest this as a good forum in which to judge Mensa.  I
would suggest you contact the LocSec of Mensa in your area, get a few
copies of their newsletter, to see what they are doing, and attend a
couple normal Mensa functions.  It is the individual members in your
area that will define what Mensa is there, and there is no way that
anybody who hasn't been with that group can tell you what to exect.

--

                                 +----------------+
Terence Kelleher              +--+-------------+  |
Encore Computer Corp.         |  | E N C O R E |  |
terryk@encore.com             |  +-------------+--+
607-687-2644                  +----------------+

Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa