HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: dan@ennex1.eng.utsa.edu (Daniel Shelton)
Newsgroups: comp.dsp
Subject: Re: Email address of DSP product suppliers
Date: 23 Jan 93 22:50:14 GMT
Reply-To: dan@ennex1.eng.utsa.edu (Daniel Shelton)
Organization: Univ of Texas at San Antonio

In article <1993Jan23.134349.10170@jarvis.csri.toronto.edu>  
gao@eecg.toronto.edu (Xiangyang Gao) writes:
> 
> Dear Netters,
> 
> I found that email is the most attractive way of communication: fast, 
> economical, to-the-point, and easy-to-archive. However, it is not easy to 
> get email addresses since email is not very commonly used (at least not 
> as common as fax).
> 
> I volunteer to compile an email address for DSP hardware, software, and
> firmware vendors for the people on this net.
> 
> Enclosed is a start. Hope it will attract good responses.
> Contributions are cordially invited!!!
> Please give a brief description of their products. (I didn't have descriptions
> of products for two of the listed four vendors. I will add them later.)
> 
> Reply to gao@eecg.toronto.edu
> 
> Frank
> 
> The Math Works Inc.
> 24 Prime Park Way/Natick, MA 01760
> Tel (508) 653-1415, fax (508) 653-2997
> email info@mathworks.com
> 
> Zola Technologies, Inc.
> 6195 Heards Creek Dr., N.W.
> Suite 201, Atlanta, GA 30328
> Tel: (404) 843-2972
> Fax: (404) 843-0116
> Internet: ZOLA@AppleLink.Apple.com
> AppleLink: ZOLA
> Product: DSP Designer, a software package on MAC.
> 
> 
> Entropic Research Laboratory, Inc.
> 600 Pennsylvania Avev., SE, Suite 202
> Washington, DC 20003, USA
> Tel: (202) 547-1420
> Fax: (202) 546-6648
> email: esps@wrl.epi.com
> Products: ESPS and xwaves. Both run on unix.
> 
> Integrated Systems
> 3260 Jay Street
> Santa Clara, California 95054
> Tel: (408) 980-1500
> Fax: (408) 980-0400
> email: xmath-info@isi.com

  Ariel Corporation
  433 River Road
  Highland Park, NJ  08904
  Tel : (908) 249-2900
  Fax : (908) 249-2123
  e-mail : cnd@bruce.ariel.com
  Contact : Chris Dodge, Engineer
  Products : i860 products, 56000 products, 96000 products, TMS* productsorks.com
> 
> Zola Technologies, Inc.
> 6195 Heards Creek Dr., N.W.
> Suite 201, Atlanta, GA 30328
> Tel: (404) 843-2972
> Fax: (404) 843-0116
> Internet: ZOLA@AppleLink.Apple.com
> AppleLink: ZOLA
> Product: DSP Designer, a software pack
Newsgroups: comp.dsp
From: jeff@is.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp (Jeff McAffer)
Subject: Thanks!
Reply-To: jeff@is.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp
Organization: University of Tokyo / Object Technology International
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 10:18:55 GMT
Distribution: comp
X-Bytes: 1109

Recently I posted a bit of a rant fest about my frustrations with
ISDN.  I would just like to thank everyone who responded.  Nothing was
actually resolved but I understand better the cause of my
frustrations.

It would seem that I have fallen prey to the marketting gods who claim
that ISDN is here and has solved our problems.  It is indeed here (in
Japan its everywhere) but there are still problems.  I guess I was
expecting a flexible plug-and-play solution (ala analog modems).  I'm
sure that will come but it appears to be early days.  Also, perhaps I
was/am naive wrt the goals/role of ISDN.  I know what *I* want to use
it for but that does not necessarily map to other people's needs.

Anyway, thanks.  I have not lost hope but for now its not a reasonable
cost/performance deal.  I await anxiously the day when I can run a 4:1
(or better) compression scheme over dual 64kbit lines for a 512kbit/s
connection to my favorite local and not so local hosts.
--
ato de, |m        -- I have been told to send this but am on record as
                     not being responsible when the error is discovered
From: cpuig@infoserv.com (Carlos M. Puig)
Newsgroups: comp.dsp
Subject: New Matlab newsgroup
Keywords: Matlab software
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 93 17:08:19 PST
Distribution: world
Organization: Minimax Research Corp.

     There is a relatively new (1 or 2 weeks old) newsgroup devoted to
MATLAB: "comp.soft-sys.matlab".  It may not yet be available at all sites.



----
Carlos Puig, KJ6ST             cpuig@infoserv.com
San Jose, CA                   (408) 289-8174
From: babb@sciences.sdsu.edu (J. Babb)
Newsgroups: comp.dsp
Subject: M-Audio Capture & Playback Adapter Loop-Thru pgm
Date: 26 Jan 93 22:19:53 GMT
Followup-To: comp.dsp
Organization: SDSU - LARC
NNTP-Posting-Host: larc.sdsu.edu


Hi folks,
 Our school just got an IBM UltiMedia system
It comes with a M-Audio Capture & Playback adapter. Lacking an amp and
speakers, I want to pass audio from a laserdisc player to the card and have
the card route to the computer systems speaker. There's a test pgm that'll
do this loop-thru, but of course as soon as you quit the pgm...silence.
So, be on the look out!!     Thanx in advance.
Jeff.
From: ccdo017@bongo.cc.utexas.edu (David Kirk)
Newsgroups: comp.dsp
Subject: DSP project: spectrum reversal
Date: 26 Jan 1993 01:54:24 GMT
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin TX
NNTP-Posting-Host: bongo.cc.utexas.edu

I am beginning a DSP project and need some assistance as to which
direction I should head.

The project entails taking the frequency response of any signal after
it has passed through a simple filter (ie RC filter) and producing a
new signal which has its response reversed:

|				|
|------------  			|          ----------
|            \	       ----->   |         /		
|	      \			|        /
|	       \		|       /
|___________________ f          |_____________________  f

I know that taking the FFT will give the spectrum, but it would
be different for different signals. The only constant is the (analog)
filters response. My design should be able to take any signal of any
spectral make-up.

Any hints or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks, David
ccdo017@bongo.cc.utexas.edu
ccdo017@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu

Newsgroups: comp.dsp,comp.lang.c
From: dandrews@bilver.uucp (Dave Andrews)
Subject: Re: Is this a Legal Way to Access a Specific Address?
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 15:13:08 GMT
Keywords: DSP, C, ANSI, Fixed RAM

In article <4255@randvax.rand.org> edhall@rand.org (Ed Hall) writes:
>In article <1993Jan24.171455.9451@bilver.uucp> dandrews@bilver.uucp (Dave Andrews) writes:
>>   float *oc_ptr = (float *) ON_CHIP;
>
>Assignment
>of a properly-cast integer constant (usually in hex or octal format) to
>a pointer is not only legal, there are situations in writing device
>drivers where it is essential.  The value you state is the value you get,
>assuming there are a sufficient number of bits.  Of course, just what
>happens when you use this pointer is highly implementation-specific.
>But the construct itself is legal C.

Ah, but is it defined that "the value you state is the value you get"?
Or is this dependent on the implementation?  I don't have a problem
with casting integers to pointers and vice-versa, this is the sort
of quagmire you have to get into when doing e.g. device drivers.

I just was uneasy about the use of an integer as an initializer for
a pointer that referred to a type of other than unit size.  I'd feel
better about a pointer of type void.

If only I were the king of the world... <audible sigh>.

- David Andrews
  dandrews@bilver.oau.org
From: bentley@iit.com (Kurt Bentley)
Newsgroups: comp.dsp
Subject: Low-cost DSP boards
Keywords: 56001
Date: 22 Jan 93 20:52:21 GMT
Distribution: ca
Organization: Integrated Information Tech.

I saw a listing from a couple of years ago where a low-cost 56001 board was
being offered in kit form (for $250).  I have been unable to get in touch with
the guy and wonder if this is still available.  His email was curtin@well.uucp.
Anyone with info on this or other low-cost DSP boards (<$1000) please email me
at bentley@iit.com or post to comp.dsp.  Thanks in advance.

Kurt Bentley
From: prg@nessie.mcc.ac.uk (Pete Green)
Newsgroups: comp.dsp
Subject: TMS320CXX code for music effects by anonymous FTP ?
Date: 27 Jan 93 18:17:45 GMT
Organization: Manchester Computing Centre

I would like to know of any TMS320CXX code for musical effects that
is available by anonymous FTP. This is to be used to demonstrate
one aspect of DSP to an undergraduate class.

Many thanks,

Peter Green.


-- 
Peter R. Green ------- Tel:+44 61 200 4738 ---- Fax:+44 61 200 4019 -----------
  JANET: prg@uk.ac.mcc.nessie            INTERNET: prg%nessie.mcc.ac.uk   
    POST:  Lab A16, Main Bldg., UMIST University, PO Box 88, Manchester, UK
----------------------- #include <std.disclaimers> ----------------------------
Newsgroups: comp.dsp
From: bgc@eos.ncsu.edu (BRYAN GARNETT COPE)
Subject: Discrete Wavelet Transforms
Organization: North Carolina State University, Project Eos
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 18:23:32 GMT

I am interested in obtaining some good information about the theory and
application of Wavelets. In particular, I wish to design an algorithm which
will be based on the Discrete Wavelet Transform (DWT) to be implemented
on a DSP based subsystem. I would like to find some articles or source
code which describes DWT algorithms or specific applications of the DWT to
audio signals only. I have seen a lot of info. on 2-dimensional DWT for
seismic research, etc, but that's not what I want. Strictly audio 
applications. 

If anyone could point me to some good information or even better, source 
code which implements the DWT, I would be greatly appreciative!!!!!!!

Thanx in advance...

Bryan Cope
bgc@moose.ncsu.edu
bryanc@ralvm29.vnet.ibm.com
(MWave Hardware developer)
Newsgroups: comp.dsp
From: gao@eecg.toronto.edu (Xiangyang Gao)
Subject: Email address of DSP Vendors
Date: 28 Jan 93 02:45:27 GMT


Dear Netters,

Enclosed is a updated list of email addresses I have compiled. Thanks to those
who replied to my last call for info.

If you have any info, just email me: gao@eecg.toronto.edu.

Some important players, e.g., Spectrum, AT&T and Motorola, are missing 
from this list.

Frank Gao


-------------------------------------------

Analog Devices DSP
1 Technology Way
P.O. Box 9106
Norwood, MA  02062-9106
DSP Applications Assistance Line: 617.461.3672
DSP Fax Line: 617.461.3010
DSP Bulletin Board System 
(up to 9600 baud v.32): 617.461.4258
e-mail: dsp_applications@analog.com
Note: Also newly introduced:
The Signal Computing BBS:
617.461.4259
(up to 14.4kbps, MNP compression)

Ariel Corporation
433 River Road
Highland Park, NJ  08904
Tel : (908) 249-2900
Fax : (908) 249-2123
e-mail : cnd@bruce.ariel.com
Contact : Chris Dodge, Engineer
Products : i860 products, 56000 products, 96000 products, TMS* productsorks.com

BittWare Research Systems, Inc.
Inner Harbor Center - 8th Floor
400 East Pratt Street
Baltimore, MD  21202
Ph: 800-848-0435
Fax: 410-838-3204
BBS: 410-838-3205
E-mail: bittware@grebyn.com
DSP boards

Entropic Research Laboratory, Inc.
600 Pennsylvania Avev., SE, Suite 202
Washington, DC 20003, USA
Tel: (202) 547-1420
Fax: (202) 546-6648
email: esps@wrl.epi.com
email: info@wrl.epi.com
products: ESPS, waves+, ERS-2000, A/D and DSP Boards (Sbus,VME,SCSI)

Integrated Systems
3260 Jay Street
Santa Clara, California 95054
Tel: (408) 980-1500
Fax: (408) 980-0400
email: xmath-info@isi.com

The Math Works Inc.
24 Prime Park Way/Natick, MA 01760
Tel (508) 653-1415, fax (508) 653-2997
email info@mathworks.com

Texas Instruments Incorporated
P.O. Box 1443  M/S 737
Houston, TX  77251-1443
(713)-274-2320   (voice)
(713)-274-2324   (fax)
(713)-274-2323   (BBS  300-9600 N,8,1)
4389750@mcimail.com   (Internet email)
TMS320 family DSPs and their Assemblers, C Compilers, Simulators, and ICE.
 

Zola Technologies, Inc.
6195 Heards Creek Dr., N.W.
Suite 201, Atlanta, GA 30328
Tel: (404) 843-2972
Fax: (404) 843-0116
Internet: ZOLA@AppleLink.Apple.com
AppleLink: ZOLA
Product: DSP Designer, a software package on MAC.
Newsgroups: comp.dsp
From: johned@cix.compulink.co.uk (John Edwards)
Subject: Re: S-Bus C30 Boards For Sparcstation-2 With Sun OS 4.1.3
Reply-To: johned@cix.compulink.co.uk
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 15:00:00 +0000


Re: C30 SBus cards.

Loughborough Sound Images produce two SBus cards, with a C30 on them. 
The difference is that one has a SCSI interface and the other has a 
proprietary parallel I/O expansion bus, the specs are :

Single slot, upto 512 K words SRAM, optional analog / digital I/O 
modules, with either Successive Approx, or Sigma-Delta 16 bit 
sampling, or AES/EBU interfaces.

All the development tools (C, ASM etc) are available, including our 
debug tools and SPOX-API.

In Japan the distributors are MTT Electronics (phone03 5379 1971) or 
USA via Spectrum (508 366 7355). Alternatively you could contact LSI 
in the UK on (0509 231843).

I hope this has helped, please do not hesitate to contact me if you 
require any further assistance.

John Edwards
Newsgroups: comp.dsp
From: epayne@su102b.ess.harris.com (Ed Payne)
Subject: Who makes printed circuit boards?
Date: 28 Jan 93 03:53:04 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Harris Semiconductor, Melbourne  FL
Keywords: TMS320C31, inexpesnive, films


	I hope this doesn't seem too out of place, but it's DSP related. ;^)
Does anyone know of a company that makes Printed Circuit Boards cheap
that I can send CAD films of the layout.  I'm trying to build a custom
board using a TMS320C31 but it's definitely a home project, therefore the
"cheap" requirement.  I know of several around here in Melbourne, Fl but
in low quantities I'm hearing upwards of $1000.  I'm not in an immediate
hurray but I'm just getting prepared, especially if I have to save up
that much money.

Many THANKS!!!

Ed Payne

--
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
| ...To each other they will soon  | epayne@su102b.ess.harris.com    	  |
|    return. Destiny fulfilled,    | Harris Corporation	       	          |
|    the words will burn... an     | Melbourne, Fl                        |
|    eternal flame.                | 32902	 			  |
|                                  ---------------------------------------|
|	<|> Journey From Mariabronn - Kansas <|>			  |
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Xref: sparky comp.dsp:3096 comp.lang.c:20185
From: alan@elroy.Jpl.Nasa.Gov (Alan S. Mazer)
Newsgroups: comp.dsp,comp.lang.c
Subject: Re: Is this a Legal Way to Access a Specific Address?
Date: 25 Jan 1993 22:24:03 GMT
Organization: Image Analysis Systems Group, JPL
NNTP-Posting-Host: cogswell.jpl.nasa.gov
Keywords: DSP, C, ANSI, Fixed RAM

In article <1993Jan23.042626.991@verdix.com> scotty@verdix.com (Scott R. Chilcote) writes:
> 
>We're programming a device that has a RAM cache at address 809800H.
>
>Is it legal to address this memory in C as follows?
>
>#define ON_CHIP 0x809800
>
>int main(void)
>{
>
>   float *oc_ptr = (float *) ON_CHIP;

Excuse me, but the replies to this are getting silly.  The poster doesn't
have an int.  He has an integer constant.  Moreover, pointer arithmetic
doesn't apply here.  There is no arithmetic.  There is simply an assignment.
What he's proposing is fine.
-- 
 
-- Alan                        # Mountain Dew and doughnuts...
   ..!ames!elroy!alan          # because breakfast is the most important meal
   alan@elroy.jpl.nasa.gov     # of the day.
From: jcbhrb@nic.cerf.net (Jacob Hirbawi)
Newsgroups: comp.dsp
Subject: RE: Instantaneous Frequency Uing Phase of Unwrapped Analytic Signal
Date: 22 Jan 1993 22:37:02 GMT
Organization: CERFnet Dial n' CERF Customer Group
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: nic.cerf.net

In <1993Jan22.153135.17150@exlog.com> johnk@exlog.com  (John Kingman) writes:

[abbreviated]
> u(t)		signal of interest
> v(t)		Hilbert transform of u(t)
> p(t)		phase, p = wc*t + (wd/wm)*sin(wm*t)
> u(t) 		modulated signal u(t) = cos(p*t)
>
> In playing with this using discreet time series', I have found that in
> general, for deviation ratios (wd/wm) >= 1, the unwrapped argument of the 
> analytic  function, a(t), is NOT the same as the phase p(t)!  Another way of 
> putting this is:
>
>		v(t) .ne. sin(p(t))
>

There is no reason for the two be equal. The fact that the Hilbert transform of
cos(wt) = sin(wt) for *constant* 'w' really doesn't imply anything about the 
general case of arbitrary argument (such as p(t) = wc*t + (wd/wm)*sin(wm*t) in
your example). There are many ways to see this; look at the integral definition
of the Hilbert transform for example and notice how nontrivial it is to get
closed form Hilbert transforms. The usual interprestation of the Hilbert
transform as a "90 degree phase shifter" might be a little misleading here since
it shifts every frequency *component* by 90 degrees; the overall trasnformed
signal could be fairly different from the original. If the argument (p(t)) 
is "more or less constant" that is if (p(t) - wc*t) is a low frequency
signal then to some measure you can use the approximation: 
v(t) .approx. sin(p(t)). This approximation will of course get worse and
worse as your deviation ratio gets larger.


Jacob Hirbawi
JcbHrb@CERF.net
From: deh1@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (Darrel Herbst)
Newsgroups: comp.dsp
Subject: Re: Newbie Question
Date: 28 Jan 93 00:34:25 GMT
Organization: Lehigh University


I have some questions about these two sound boards, and using them for a
realtime signal processing of say, a guitar.  Or even as a home recording
device, if it is in fact, possible to do such a thing.

>If you do it for fun, sound blaster is quite adequate. But you
>are serious then I suggests using Turtle Beach or Pro Audio Spectrum 16.
>SoundBlaster did come out with their 16 bit ASP board. But again, when
>I check out their board, I don 't see they do a good job in shielding the
>analog ground plane.

My question is, I called Pro Audio and asked them how I could get some source
code to work with, but there's something like 2 weeks waiting time for an
answer to any 'technical' questions.  Does anyone know of anything I can work
with?  Either code, or documentation, it's not important which.  You see, I
haven't bought a sound board yet, and I'm trying to make the best possible
choice.

If anyone has any information on these two boards (where I can purchase, any
and all technical bulletins or other documentation) please let me know via
email or post.  I'm sure others might like some of this information.

Thanks a lot.
Darrel Herbst
deh1@lehigh.edu
-- 
           -------------------------------------------------
            Darrel Herbst : Lehigh University
            DEH1@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu
            215/758.1909
           -------------------------------------------------
From: e-hung@ampex.com (Eric Hung)
Newsgroups: comp.dsp
Subject: Re: TMS320
Keywords: help
Date: 25 Jan 93 18:32:52 GMT
Article-I.D.: ampex.C1FA6t.MJy
Organization: Ampex Corporation, Redwood City CA


TI has a BBS for you to download sample software. The # is
713-274-2323. They also offer some application articles. You
can call their customer support services at 1-800-336-5236.

I am a fairly experienced user of the C31. Currently I am 
using the C31 for audio time compression/expansion. Be sure
you have their newest HEX30 when you are ready to burn 
PROM.

Eric.
Newsgroups: comp.dsp
From: jcooley@world.std.com (John Cooley)
Subject: Joining ESNUG
Organization: The E-mail Synopsys Users Group (ESNUG)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 05:43:19 GMT


  If you're using the Synopsys Design Compiler and/or their ATPG product, you 
  might be interested in joining the E-Mail Synopsys Users Group (ESNUG).

  What we are is a group of hardware designers from all over the world who
  wish to trade experiences, bug reports and the techniques that we've
  found that work best in getting a design from a behavioral description
  to a final fully tested product.  This is a grassroots forum independent
  of Synopsys, Inc.

  A Sample of What We Discuss:

	- Known Synopsys Compiler Bugs    - Implementing Boundry Scan

	- Mentor related issues    - EDIF related issues

	- Hierarchical Compliations   - design_analyzer   - JTAG

	- How Various ASIC Vendors Model Their Macros.   - Clock Constraints

	- Using ATPG Tools   - The Best Way To Write State Machines in Verilog

	- Using VHDL   - System Simulation vs. Synopsys Friendly Code

	- Clever Workarounds to Known Pitfalls   - Testing Strategies

  In order to insure an open discussion, but yet keep our respective managers
  happy in having our company's projects remain SECRET, submissions to be 
  posted to the ESNUG mailing list can be stripped of identifying engineers 
  and company names if so requested.

  In addition, to further secure privacy and to avoid e-mail headers that
  are hundreds of names long, each mailing is a batch of singlely addressed 
  e-mail letters.

  If you want to join ESNUG, please send me e-mail to "jcooley@world.std.com"
  saying you wish to join and why.  (Please don't send a copy of this letter
  back to me, I know what you're refering to when you're writing.)

					- John Cooley
					  ESNUG Moderator

 ===========================================================================
 Trapped trying to figure out a Synopsys bug?  Want to hear how others dealt
 with it ?  Join the E-Mail Synopsys Users Group!  To join, E-mail me today! 
 ===========================================================================
      !!!     "It's not a BUG,    | Preferred Address: jcooley@world.std.com
     /o o\  /  it's a FEATURE!"   |    Backup Address: jcooley@miracle.com
    (  >  )                       |              (508) 429-4357
     \ - /       |   Snail Mail: P.O. Box 6222, Holliston, MA 01746-6222
     _] [_       |     "This here ain't no one's opinion 'cept my own."


Newsgroups: comp.dsp,comp.lang.c
From: wollman@sadye.emba.uvm.edu (Garrett Wollman)
Subject: Re: Is this a Legal Way to Access a Specific Address?
Keywords: DSP, C, ANSI, Fixed RAM
Organization: University of Vermont, EMBA Computer Facility
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 18:10:29 GMT

In article <1993Jan23.042626.991@verdix.com> scotty@verdix.com (Scott R. Chilcote) writes:
>
>Is it legal to address this memory in C as follows?
>
>#define ON_CHIP 0x809800

>   float *oc_ptr = (float *) ON_CHIP;

>Our device-specific ANSI C compiler lets us do this in order to address the
>on-chip memory, without a warning.  The emulator shows that it works.  I've
>looked in several textbooks, however, and I've never seen mention of setting
>a pointer equal to a constant in order to define a specific address.  Even the
>new K & R book doesn't mention if this is legal.

It is certainly "legal" in the sense that it is syntactically correct,
but the results of doing this are implementation-defined.  (Your
compiler manual should somewhere have a paragraph explaining what
precisely it defines this expression to mean.)  The ANSI C standard
*does* guarantee (I believe, not having a copy handy) that there is
some flavor of integer that can be cast back and forth to a pointer
type.  (Different kinds of pointers may require different kinds of
integers.)  I do not believe that you are guaranteed to get the same
integer back; i.e., (unsigned long)(void *)0xfe100004 is not
guaranteed to be == to 4262461444UL.

Some people prefer to use a union for type punning; i.e.:

union Pointer {
  void *vp;
  unsigned long ul;
  void (*vfp)();
};

However, I don't believe that this really buys you anything, although
it may eliminate warning messages on some compilers.  (As someone said
in this newsgroup, "A compiler is free to issue a diagnostic if it's
after five on Friday, or it's raining outside.")  The experts will
probably weigh in soon enough.

-GAWollman

-- 
Garrett A. Wollman   | Shashish is simple, it's discreet, it's brief. ... 
wollman@emba.uvm.edu | Shashish is the bonding of hearts in spite of distance.
uvm-gen!wollman      | It is a bond more powerful than absence.  We like people
UVM disagrees.       | who like Shashish.  - Claude McKenzie + Florent Vollant