HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Organization: City University of New York/ University Computer Center
Date: Wednesday, 6 Jan 1993 17:31:27 EST
From: <BOTGC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: newsletter

To all those who wonder about participatory nature of the "Nefilim Forum".
Yes, since the subscription is by invitation only, those who had not
participated at least once in discussions during the subscription period
of 10 issues would be phased out. We are happy to have things moving in the
right direction at last, and indeed we succeeded enough  to have Sitchin
subscribe to it.
Regards,
Vladislav
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
From: jeffp@netcom.com (Jeff)
Subject: Re: CONCLUSIONS RE:JOHN W
Organization: BeHereNow
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1993 00:20:49 GMT

In article <1695.37.uupcb@hal9k.ann-arbor.mi.us> victor.volkman@hal9k.ann-arbor.mi.us (Victor Volkman)  writes:
>-> Dear People: I don't believe Ethan will quite the group because I
>
>You mean "quit" the group.
>
>-> don't believe he is a quiter. You will hear from him again. At least
>
>Try "quitter".
>                                                                      

Sorry Vic,

email is supposed to be quick and dirty. It's not meant to be perfect
or spell checked. We all know how to use a dictionary or spell checker,
and depending on how anal you are, and how much you write, you can
be good or not too good at spelling. That is not the point. The point
is that how many people do you know that spell check their posts?

I don't.

Don't be correcting anybodies spelling on the net. It simply looks
unsophisticated (sp?);-)

Jeff-

DON'T BE WASTING BANDWIDTH IN THIS GROUP!
From: kpapai@rahul.net (Ken Papai)
Newsgroups: alt.california
Subject: Re: US murder capital is in Silicon Valley?
Date: 13 Jan 93 00:07:50 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: a2i network

In <ll6hb3INNi89@news.bbn.com> rnewman@bbn.com (Ron Newman) writes:

>I was surprised to read in a newspaper (Boston Globe 
>or NY Times, don't remember which) that the U.S. municipality
>with the highest ratio of murders to residents last year was...
>... East Palo Alto, California.
>Is there an unsolved serial murder spree going on there,
>or does that town just have a grossly understaffed
>police department after having seceded from the
>rest of Palo Alto?

East Palo Alto and Palo Alto are different towns, though they are adjacent.
East P.A. is pretty small, less than 50K people, and is very poor, and not
really "part" of Silicon Valley.  Luckily, Hwy 101 separates E. P.A. from
the rest.  East P.A.'s problem is poverty and drug dealing which bring on
high murder rates.
-- 
Ken Papai <kpapai@rahul.net>
From: mike@fionn.lbl.gov (Michael Helm)
Newsgroups: alt.california
Subject: Re: Cost of Living
Date: 9 Jan 1993 19:14:43 GMT
Organization: N.I.C.E.
Reply-To: mike@fionn (Michael Helm)
NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.3.128.60

Michael A Smith writes:
> 1/lb of freshly-rosted import coffee $6 - $10

Well the coffee's cheaper -- I guess we need it to make
up for the other stuff.
Newsgroups: alt.california
From: mperlman@nyx.cs.du.edu (Marshal "Airborne" Perlman)
Subject: Re: buying a car in CA
Organization: University of Denver, Dept. of Math & Comp. Sci.
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 93 21:21:01 GMT

Try a plce called SOUTHWEST AUTO LEASING
and tell them that I sent you..... (Marshal Perlman is me)....

There is one in West LA and one in Orange County... GOTO the LA one...
--
|o| Marshal Perlman                             Internet: perlman@cs.fit.edu |o|
|o| Florida Institute of Technology                              IRC: Squawk |o|
|o| Melbourne, Florida                                   Private Pilot, ASEL |o|
|o| 407/768-8000 x8435                            Goodyear Blimp Club Member |o|
From: mike@fionn.lbl.gov (Michael Helm)
Newsgroups: alt.california
Subject: Southland Internet access? (Re: S.F. Bay Internet Access?)
Date: 8 Jan 1993 01:39:48 GMT
Organization: N.I.C.E.
Reply-To: mike@fionn (Michael Helm)
NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.3.128.60

soulcatc@cyberden.sf.ca.us writes:
(a good description of a few of the bay area options)

What about Southern California, particularly San Bernadino area?
Newsgroups: alt.california
Subject: Re: Cost of Living
From: spang@calstatela.edu ()
Date: 11 Jan 93 17:59:56 PST
Reply-To: spang@calstatela.edu
Distribution: world
Organization: Cal State University, Los Angeles

$1.49	1 gallon of gasoline at Chevron station

50% off everything at Robinson in (Glendale and Pasadena)
because they are closing down.

$6.75	1 movie ticket at Edwards Theatre
$4.50	1 movie ticket bought with student ID at AMC Theatre



Sue

Organization: Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: alt.california
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 14:36:12 -0500 
From: Andrea Elizabeth Neill <an0q+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: jobs here

Are there any places in the state that are generally easier for someone
just starting out to get a job?  i'm thinking about going to San
Franscisco simply because I'm a writing major with experience in
television, publishing, and the toy industry, and it seems like S.F.
holds the most hope for me.  Any suggestions?

help help! please....
Thanks,
Sidney
Newsgroups: alt.california
From: msmith@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Michael A Smith)
Subject: Cost of Living
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1993 02:04:18 GMT

I have never been to CA, but would like to go.  All I hear about
in Ohio is how expensive it is.  How true is this?  Below I have listed
some prices I currently pay in Columbus.  If someone from the Bay Area,
LA, Sacramento, and San Diego could post some comparisions I would be
thankful.

 Rent(1 br + kitchen) $300
 Gas   $1.05/gallon (1/8/92)
 milk  $1.59/gallon
 compact disc $12.99
 entry fee for 10K race $12
 1/lb of freshly-rosted import coffee $6 - $10
 12" pizza with 2-toppings $7

( any other measures of price comparision would be helpful)
thanks, MAS
From: rnewman@bbn.com (Ron Newman)
Newsgroups: alt.california
Subject: US murder capital is in Silicon Valley?
Date: 12 Jan 93 22:25:39 GMT
Organization: Bolt, Beranek & Newman, Inc.
NNTP-Posting-Host: spcsun25.bbn.com

I was surprised to read in a newspaper (Boston Globe 
or NY Times, don't remember which) that the U.S. municipality
with the highest ratio of murders to residents last year was...
... East Palo Alto, California.

Is there an unsolved serial murder spree going on there,
or does that town just have a grossly understaffed
police department after having seceded from the
rest of Palo Alto?

-- 
Ron Newman		rnewman@bbn.com
Newsgroups: alt.california
From: CSMSETS@MVS.OAC.UCLA.EDU (CSMSETS)
Subject: Re: Chicken Boy Los Angles
Date: 12 Jan 93 14:23:47 PST

In article <73071@cup.portal.com>, on 6 Jan 93 19:55:19 PST,
TRADER@cup.portal.com (Paul Vincent McGinnis) writes:

>
>Are you talking about the guys in the chicken suit who stand in front of
>the Mexican chicken places like El Pollo Loco???
>
>Paul McGinnis / TRADER@cup.portal.com
>

Or are you talking about the Chicken Man, thats Bill Clinton....
From: kko@terapin.com (Kenneth Ko..)
Newsgroups: alt.california
Subject: Re: Parking ticket in CA
Date: 5 Jan 93 03:33:00 PST
Organization: BBS

If all else fails, you could always just try to convince the county clerk or
the judge that you weren't driving the car when the parking ticket was issued.
According to the law (I don't know the number, someone confirm this.), the
owner of the car is not liable for a parking ticket that his/her car receives
while someone else was using the car.  This is true even if the owner lent the
car to the person who got the ticket (for tickets that are NOT signed).  Of
course, only present this case if it were the truth, because perjury is
punishable by the law...  :)
From: pele@ucscb.UCSC.EDU (David J. Duffield)
Newsgroups: alt.california
Subject: Re: Cost of Living
Date: 9 Jan 1993 05:04:10 GMT
Organization: University of California; Santa Cruz
NNTP-Posting-Host: ucscb.ucsc.edu


In article <1993Jan9.020418.6788@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> msmith@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Michael A Smith) writes:
>I have never been to CA, but would like to go.  All I hear about
>in Ohio is how expensive it is.  How true is this?  Below I have listed
>some prices I currently pay in Columbus.  If someone from the Bay Area,
>LA, Sacramento, and San Diego could post some comparisions I would be
>thankful.
>
> Rent(1 br + kitchen) $300
> Gas   $1.05/gallon (1/8/92)
> milk  $1.59/gallon
> compact disc $12.99
> entry fee for 10K race $12
> 1/lb of freshly-rosted import coffee $6 - $10
> 12" pizza with 2-toppings $7
>
>( any other measures of price comparision would be helpful)
>thanks, MAS

I am at school in Santa Cruz (pretty much Bay Area) and grewup live in SD so...

Rent in SC:  closer to $500 looking at what friends are paying.
	SD:  ??? stay with parents--its free
Gas in  SC:  Paid 1.36/gallon today (fee cents more than last month)
	SD:  About 1.28 to 1.33 last month
Milk in SC:  little more
	SD:  stay with parents--its free
CD in   SC:  SAME
	SD:  SAME
10K     SC:  who knows.  its $30 at team for IM indoor soccer
	SD:  who knows.  Its about $50 a player for outdoor soccer team
Coffe   SC:  gee, i only drink tea :)
	SD:  free refills at McDonalds
12"2TPizz SC:  bout right w/out coupon (maybe one or two more)
	  SD:  SAME

If you plan to buy a house in San Diego or Riverside County, call Amerimac
Coastwide Mort in SD County.  They'll take care of you and tell them I sent
you so I can get a referral fee.  :)

-DJD
From: kpapai@rahul.net (Ken Papai)
Newsgroups: alt.california
Subject: Re: Cost of Living
Date: 9 Jan 93 04:52:21 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: a2i network

msmith@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Michael A Smith) writes:

>in Ohio is how expensive it is.  How true is this?  Below I have listed
>some prices I currently pay in Columbus.  If someone from the Bay Area,
>thankful.

> Rent(1 br + kitchen) $300
A nice neighborhood in the South Bay (San Jose to Palo Alto)
this rent is from $600 to $950

> Gas   $1.05/gallon (1/8/92)
Gas averages 1.29 at Exxon.

> milk  $1.59/gallon
???

> compact disc $12.99
$15.99

> entry fee for 10K race $12
$12 to $18

> 1/lb of freshly-rosted import coffee $6 - $10
It's better here and cheaper!

> 12" pizza with 2-toppings $7
It's better here, price? Doesn't matter.

>( any other measures of price comparision would be helpful)
Calif. income tax: 5 to 8% !!! ouch !!!
Auto regn: $300 out of state car fee
plus $200 to $800 per year depending on how nice your car is (value).

 
-- 
Ken Papai <kpapai@rahul.net>
Organization: The American University - University Computing Center
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 13:04:47 EST
From: Juan T. Avecilla <JA6769A@auvm.american.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.california
Subject: Re: buying a car in CA
Distribution: world

Rent a car!!! Getting a car in California is a good idea if you'll be there for
some time, certainly for more than a month or so. There are countless things to
consider that are plain hassles in buying a used car. Hassles such as getting a
smog test for the title and registration; going to DMV; getting insurance (this
is tricky as I know of no insurance company that temporarily insures for a
month or so); most of all, you need a California address for all the paperwork
for DMV. I say forget buying the car--there are numerous car rental specials in
the US (look around in the local papers, call a travel agent, ask around). And
don't forget you still have to sell the car at the end. DMV itself is the main
hassle (any other Californian will probably tell you the same). Best of luck in
your decision.

Jay A.
Another displaced Southern Californian.
Jay A.
From: fencil@chargers.msu.edu (Kollin S. Fencil)
Newsgroups: alt.california
Subject: Re: Chicken Boy Los Angles
Date: 8 Jan 93 12:12:25 GMT
Reply-To: fencil@chargers.msu.edu
Organization: Michigan State University
NNTP-Posting-Host: chargers.pp.msu.edu

An answer to Paul McGinnis because I couldn't reply to you for some reason:

Subject: Re: Chicken Boy Los Angeles

I'm talking about a twenty two foot high fiberglass statue of a "chicken boy'
who used to stand atop of an old chicken restraunt on Broadway near 5th Street.  And now there is company (i.e. Future Studios) who has put out a couple catalogs with chicken boy memorabealia and odd other "collectors" items.  Maybe there is a conotation behind chicken boy that I don't know but I've always taken it for what it was, a large statue that is too tall to live and too weird to die.
Newsgroups: alt.california
From: CSMSETS@MVS.OAC.UCLA.EDU (CSMSETS)
Subject: Re: Cost of Living
Date: 12 Jan 93 14:44:37 PST

In article <1993Jan9.182738.13195@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu>, on 9 Jan 93 18:27:38 GMT,
mperlman@nyx.cs.du.edu (Marshal "Airborne" Perlman) writes:

>
>Florida has a $600 impact fee to get your car registered....I told
>the lady to take a flying leap... heh... Don't forget, in California
>it goes by the VALUE of your car.. not by WEIGHT (like it does in a lot
>of places)...

Not completely true, if you are lucky enough (HA!) to have commercial
plates like I do (own a 4x4 or other truck) you pay weight fees in
addition to the standard registration.
        --Ed
Newsgroups: alt.california
From: mperlman@nyx.cs.du.edu (Marshal "Airborne" Perlman)
Subject: Re: Cost of Living
Organization: University of Denver, Dept. of Math & Comp. Sci.
Distribution: usa
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 93 18:27:38 GMT

Florida has a $600 impact fee to get your car registered....I told
the lady to take a flying leap... heh... Don't forget, in California
it goes by the VALUE of your car.. not by WEIGHT (like it does in a lot
of places)...

--
|o| Marshal Perlman                             Internet: perlman@cs.fit.edu |o|
|o| Florida Institute of Technology                              IRC: Squawk |o|
|o| Melbourne, Florida                                   Private Pilot, ASEL |o|
|o| 407/768-8000 x8435                            Goodyear Blimp Club Member |o|
From: cjackson@adobe.com (Curtis Jackson)
Newsgroups: alt.california
Subject: Re: Cost of Living
Date: 10 Jan 93 22:28:08 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Adobe Systems Incorporated, Mountain View

Some other hints for the Bay Area in particular:

1) If you only need one bedroom, or want something specific from an
apartment complex's facilities (pool, workout room, security doors, etc.),
then rent an apartment. Otherwise, rent a house. My wife and I were
renting a 1-br apartment for $750 (new renters were paying $800). We
rented a beautiful 3-bedroom house in a nice neighborhood with a great
backyard including trellised wysteria, etc. for $1000. House purchase
prices may be outrageous, but compared to apartments house rentals are
a good deal.

2) Many people out here share houses; mixed-sex platonic houses are
extremely common. Consider this option to save $$$ and get a nicer
place to live to boot.

3) Don't forget about the state sales tax! 7.5% (I think) statewide,
but 8.25% here locally.

4) Housing prices are very related to population density, which is
very related to commute distances. If you are willing and able to
work off-hours or staggered hours so as to miss rush hour, and are
willing to commute long distances (where long is relative but probably
a minimum of 20 miles each way), you can find a lot cheaper housing.

5) If you ride a motorcycle, you can cut your commute times way
down by using the carpool lanes legally and, if you choose and 
conditions warrant (they often do), lane-sharing when traffic is
crawling/stopped. I cut my commute at the height of rush hour
almost in half when I started riding.

6) You also didn't mention what you are paying for auto insurance.
It is quite high here, but not nearly as high as, say, New Jersey.

Gotta run; good luck!
-- 
Curtis Jackson			'91 Black Lab/Blue Heeler "Studley Doright"
cjackson@mv.us.adobe.com	'92 Collie/Golden "George"
DoD #721			'91 Hawk GT	'81 Maxim 650
"I'd rather die while I'm living than live while I'm dead." -- J. Buffett
From: renner@cs.tu-berlin.de (Peter Renner)
Newsgroups: alt.california
Subject: buying a car in CA
Date: 11 Jan 1993 15:49:10 GMT
Organization: Technical University of Berlin, Germany
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: reticuli.cs.tu-berlin.de

I am planing to get to California for 1 or 2 month in the summer.
As renting a car is quite expensive, we are planing to buy a real
cheap one. Has anyone experience with this ? How many will I have to
pay for a cheap second hand car and at what kind of places should I
buy it ? How many do I have to spend for insurance fees and what
else do I have to take care of ?

Greetings

Peter
Newsgroups: alt.california
Subject: Re: Cost of Living
From: Irianto Sukaton <is08+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1993 00:40:00 -0500 
Organization: Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA

Excerpts from netnews.alt.california: 9-Jan-93 Cost of Living by Michael
A Smith@magnus.a 
>  
> I have never been to CA, but would like to go.  All I hear about
> in Ohio is how expensive it is.  How true is this?  Below I have listed
> some prices I currently pay in Columbus.  If someone from the Bay Area,
> LA, Sacramento, and San Diego could post some comparisions I would be
> thankful.
>  
[specifics deleted]
>
> ( any other measures of price comparision would be helpful)
> thanks, MAS

The places in California that you mentioned would be more in line with
Boston, NY, and the DC/Baltimore area. There are places in California that
are more comparable --price-wise-- with Columbus which include cities in the
central valley like Merced, Modesto, Turlock and a host of other places
such as Napa and Watsonville.

I moved from Santa Cruz Ca to Pittsburgh Pa in '87 and I did not experience
a noticable change in my living expenses.



Rouli
is08@andrew.cmu.edu

Standard Discalimer: The views and opinions stated above are mine only
		     and do not reflect the views of CMU.


Newsgroups: alt.california
From: CSMSETS@MVS.OAC.UCLA.EDU (CSMSETS)
Subject: Re: Cost of Living
Date: 12 Jan 93 14:49:20 PST

In article <1993Jan9.020418.6788@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>, on 9 Jan 1993 02:04:18 GMT,
msmith@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Michael A Smith) writes:

>
>I have never been to CA, but would like to go.  All I hear about
>in Ohio is how expensive it is.  How true is this?  Below I have listed
>some prices I currently pay in Columbus.  If someone from the Bay Area,
>LA, Sacramento, and San Diego could post some comparisions I would be
>thankful.
>
> Rent(1 br + kitchen) $300
> Gas   $1.05/gallon (1/8/92)
> milk  $1.59/gallon
> compact disc $12.99
> entry fee for 10K race $12
> 1/lb of freshly-rosted import coffee $6 - $10
> 12" pizza with 2-toppings $7
>
>( any other measures of price comparision would be helpful)
>thanks, MAS
>

I think what you really have to do is compare income here and there
and weigh in the costs for different things.
      --Ed
Newsgroups: alt.california
From: mperlman@nyx.cs.du.edu (Marshal "Airborne" Perlman)
Subject: Re: Cost of Living
Organization: University of Denver, Dept. of Math & Comp. Sci.
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 93 18:25:47 GMT

msmith@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Michael A Smith) writes:

>I have never been to CA, but would like to go.  All I hear about
>in Ohio is how expensive it is.  How true is this?  Below I have listed
>some prices I currently pay in Columbus.  If someone from the Bay Area,
>LA, Sacramento, and San Diego could post some comparisions I would be
>thankful.

> Rent(1 br + kitchen) $300

Hahahahahah...trust me...california is a bit more. I am (and will always be)
a California resident, but I live in Florida now (to goto school), and 
the price difference is AMAZING. I can live like a king here... but even
as cheap as it is... California is better..

Good luck... and when I move back  in 4 years...you'll have to leave. <GRIN>
--
|o| Marshal Perlman                             Internet: perlman@cs.fit.edu |o|
|o| Florida Institute of Technology                              IRC: Squawk |o|
|o| Melbourne, Florida                                   Private Pilot, ASEL |o|
|o| 407/768-8000 x8435                            Goodyear Blimp Club Member |o|
Newsgroups: alt.california
Subject: Re: Yosemite
From: Christopher M Stanley <cs67+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Wed,  6 Jan 1993 17:15:21 -0500 
Organization: Graduate School of Industrial Administr., Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA

>I live in Sweden and I plan a trip to California.
>I'm interested in the National park Yosemite. Can anyone
>tell me about the possibilities of living there during
>the summer (august). Is it very expensive and fullbooked
>for months? And what is the best transportation from LA and
>how long will it take? Which month of the year is Yosemite
>most beautiful? Lot's of question, maybe you can answer
>some of them. / Marcus


Unfortunately August is the worst time to go to Yosimite.  The crowds
are horrible and it is VERY DIFFICULT get loging or campsites.  
I believe you can reserve campsites 8 weeks in advance? (is this right?) 

Last time I was there I hiked the backcountry.  It was absolutely
beautiful!  it was the week before July 4th.  I triked to make
reservations at a campsite on the first availible date and even though I
was the 3rd in line there were no campsites left.  Luckily there is
camping space for backcountry hikers.

The best time to go is before May 31 or after the 1st week of Sept.  If 
you like to hike this is the place to do it.  but get a backcountry
permit from the forest service.  Maybe someone out there has the address
or phone?  I don't know if there is any special people you can contact
comming from Europe but, in the U.S. You have to make reservations
through Ticketron (Ibelieve this is still true).  
One good thing, you are preparing in advance.  That's good.  One last
peice of advice - get as much information as you can as soon as you can.
And you might try your end, if you haven't already.  Sometimes packages
are available to foriegners that aren't available to us (kind of like
Eurail passes over your way).  
good luck

chris
Newsgroups: alt.california
From: ostubble@agsm.ucla.edu (Otha Stubblefield III)
Subject: Re: Parking ticket in CA
Date: 4 Jan 93 08:38:41 PST

gary@resumix.portal.com (Gary M. Lin) writes:

>markp@pro-palmtree.socal.com (Mark Panitz) writes:
>>I don't think the Police would be come to your door, and haul you off to
>>jail, but if you were stopped by a police officer for a traffic violation,
>>then you would be in danger of going to jail.

>No kidding, that's what happened to someone I know.  Spent three days before
>they cleared the paperwork before they let him go.

>- GL

Double no kidding.  I know someone who spent 9 days (he had a fight 
while he was there and got extra time). 

And, in answer to "Well, I really don't think our local police have the 
time to pick someone up.", the county actually "contracted" the Culver
City Police Department to drive over to my friend's Inglewood home 
(yes, Inglewood has their own PD, and no the ticket was not issued in 
either Inglewood or Culver City) and pick him up, at 8 in the morning,
no less!


Newsgroups: alt.california
From: klemets@klaava.Helsinki.FI (Tim S Klemets)
Subject: Re: Cost of Living
Organization: University of Helsinki
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 15:25:53 GMT

In article <1993Jan9.182547.13125@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu>
mperlman@nyx.cs.du.edu:

>the price difference is AMAZING. I can live like a king here... but even
>as cheap as it is... California is better..

That's so true.  There are no huge cockroaches around in California.
I guess it's too dry.

-- 

 * Expecting an awesome signature?  Boy, are you gonna get disappointed... *
 * ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *
 * tim.klemets@hut.fi       %  finger: @kaira.hut.fi                       *
From: mason@lclark.edu (Paul Mason)
Newsgroups: alt.california
Subject: Sports dynasties
Date: 11 Jan 93 23:37:27 GMT
Organization: Lewis & Clark College, Portland OR

I am so excited about the 49ers this year.  I think that their odds of
winning the Super Bowl are quite good, even if they did have have some 
problems on the sloppy field Saturday.  I have been a Niners fan all my
life.  It has been great following them through all their successes and I
think that every sports fan deserves to have a dynasty on their side at some
point in their life.
GO FORTY-NINERS ! ! ! ! ! ! !

Paul.
-- 
Newsgroups: alt.california