From: indu@iss700.Columbia.NCR.COM
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
Subject: WHY PAKISTAN NEEDS AN ORIENTATION PROGRAMME
Date: 20 Aug 92 22:01:45 GMT
Organization: NCR Corp, E&M-Columbia, Columbia, SC
Originator: indu@iss700

From: rohan@nmc.cit.cornell.edu (Rohan Oberoi)
Subject:  The Case of The Missing Akhand Bharat @ s.c.i.


>> Does 14th August mean nothing to us?
> Yes.
Well don't project your views as a majority view and decide for the majority.
Your response could be     YES as-far-as-I'm-concerned (which any way is a
screwed up view)

>> Does a nation lose its claim on its territorial parts that try to sperate for
>> time being?
> If they form a new nation and are recognised by the United Nations, then we do
> lose any territorial claim we might have had over them.
>> But what about its HISTORICAL links with BHARAT?
> What about our HISTORICAL links with Britain ?  Should we petition them to send
> us a viceroy ?
 Logic accepted.  Had we been under British rule since the begining
 (again what is termed as  begining?  To the day you can track back your
  historical roots) we could have asked them  to do so.  As I have pointed
  if **YOUR** historical background starts from the British then you may
  remain in that bondage. As a matter of fact then you would not be the
  first one to be that way. Indian communists had already set an Ideological
  precedence. 

  As far as a HINDU is concerned his historical existence dates from the
  ages of KRITA YUGA ( millions of years before RAMA).

>> Right from the ages of Ramayana our links have been established with IRAN, 
>> AFGHANISTAN, BANGLADESH, NEPAL, CEYLON, THAILAND etc. Can these be severed
>> by some religio-fanatical upsurge(as in case of PAKISTAN) or by some weak
>> leadership guidance(in case of BHARAT)?
> Try to keep gibberish off the net.  Are you saying we should annex all these
> countries as well as Pakistan ?  By the way, you may not know this, but Bharat
> is another name for India.  We have not been separated from "BHARAT".
Who is speaking of OUR seperation from BHARAT? For the same "HISTORICAL REASONS"
as have explained above it is more appropriate to call our country BHARAT than
INDIA. Also BHARAT is more to the context, as INDIA is just a post-independence
creation or a medieval age word coined some foriegn souls who could not 
pronounce Sindhu, Indus etc,.
If you would like to call the A-NATION'S-RE-UNITY as an annexation of the 
smaller territories by the bigger territory   you are free to say so. Its 
JUST-YOUR-CHOICE-OF-WORDS. As for the gibberish-ness let the NET decide it.
You don't refree it.

>> Does PAKISTAN gaining its Political 
>> Independence mean that we lose claim on all our Historical Landmarks like
>> LAHORE (maharaj Ranjit Singhs Capital), Western Punjab Provinces, Sind regions,
>> Rivers and rivulets  Sindhu which had their repectable place since the Vedic 
>> age?
> We do not lose the cultural ties we have with these places.Pilgrims from India
> still visit many "holy" sites in Pakistan.As to RanjitSingh and the Vedic Age,
> the fact that Ranjit Singh once ruled Lahore has no more relevance than the
> fact that Akbar once ruled Delhi.  Also, Ranjit Singh had no political ties to
> the Indian Government, which and this may be news to you -did not exist at the
> time.

DO YOU MEAN TO SAY THAT CULTURAL TIES IS JUST A VISIT BY A BUNCH OF PILGRIMS
ENTERING INTO PAKISTAN OR ANY SUCH PLACE UNDER-TIGHT-SECURITY OR WHAT-SO-EVER?
I view cultural ties as living together, thinking together, moving together, 
sharing the same problems, and many more things which cannot unfortunately
be explained under this topic. 
WHO IS TALKING OF Ranjit Singh and Govt. Of India. As I had already pointed your
all this unclear views would be cleared if you start thinking in terms of 
BHARAT. When you basically think in terms of INDIA and GOI your history starts
with 1947 or if your are a bit knowledgeable then from the BRITISH rule or
at the most form the Muslim rule. BROADEN YOUR VISION and TRY TO KNOW THE 
DEPTH OF YOUR ROOTS.

>> I believe that PAKISTAN is still an integral part of Great Indian culture and
>> heritage.
> If you mean a common cultural heritage, you're right.  If you mean a national 
> identity, you're wrong.  Period.

WHY NOT A NATIONAL IDENTITY? CHANAKYA STUDIED IN A UNIVERSITY in the BORDERS
of AFGHANISTAN, INDIA, PAKISTAN. MADRI, GANDHARI, KAIKEYI and many others
are from these areas infact going even further to IRAN. THESE LANDS WERE INDEED
the PART OF BHARAT.

>> In such cases one should never forget the examples which Jews and Germans have
>> set before us.
> Whatever you say.
SAY THAT YOU CANNOT COMPREHEND

>> Bharath was once a world leader, VISHWA GURU.  Its culture had spread from
>> Siberia to Australia, from Indo-China regions to SOUTH America. It is this 
>> spirit we should remember. The sad incidence of pertition should be taken as
>> a wrong in the history and one should forget that and try to restore our
>> GLORIOUS HERITAGE
> I presume this is merely a call to cultural and economic arms, not a call
> for the annexation of Siberia, Australia, Vietnam and/or South America. 
> (By the way, there is no evidence whatsoever of pre-colonial Indian influence 

Again YOUR MYOPIC VISION and lack-of-depth is showing itself off. As for the
evidence of Pre-colonial Indian influence 
   - Ganesh puja was a regular practice in Russia, Siberia, South America, 
     and Indo-China parts. Mind you these are some of the places I can just 
     remember of a very big list and ....< lot more >.
     (Ref: INDIA and Its Contribution to World Culture and History)
     This ref. book is really interesting and pretty resourceful. 
     Well if I start to produce you the evidence of "pre-colonial Indian
     Influence" then I may have to replicate hundreds of those evidences quoted
     in this book and other related works.
     People are trying to unearth the roots behind the advent of ISLAM 
     which link back to Hinduism. SHIVA puja was done In those parts of
     of Gulf area, Turkey etc. There are a few people who have already started
     collecting documentary evidence and other historical proofs. The main 
     masjid in Turkey's capital( honestly donot remember) is called the MASJID
     of SIVAS (even today). The Islamic religious stone in Islamic religious 
     places was a SIVALINGA, even remains as a sivalinga.

     /* There are theories in Kerala (sorry, cannot provide you authentications
     I just heard but could not find material on this) saying JesusChrist
     came to BHARAT and learnt about Hinduism and Buddhism. (Christian
     sources) */

> on Siberia, Australia or South America.  Moreover, the Vietnamese do not 
> vote BJP.)

   - WHO IS SPEAKING OF BJP? AND Your that last sentence cannot explain what
     your thought actually process is.

>> Some times it does pain the way our pakistani brothers try to project their
>> so called PAKISTANI identity.
> I fail to see why, unless they should try to do it in Sringar.
  NOW YOU CAN TRY TO SEE 

>> If they feel that their NATION has taken its birth in 1947 then they are lost
> Pakistan did become a nation in 1947.  You seem somewhat lost yourself.

  It depends on how you try to define your nation and its History. Its only
in History books and on some documents that PAKISTAN had formed as a nation
in 1947. But those people were there ( may not be the same very composition
as were there before 1947).
>> These people have taken all the pains of the Invaders barbarianism and 
>> stopped them at the FRONTIERS of BHARATH. Are we that gratitudeless to 
>> forget all those sacrifices?
> I don't remember them stopping at our frontiers in 1947, 1965 or 1971.
> We did, however, do them the courtesy of stopping at their frontiers, and
> they don't seem all that "gratitudeful" to us for that...


This is the SOMEWHAT-ACCEPTABLE portion of your logics. As I have been trying 
to say and average Pakistani is a lost soul. He doesnot know about his past
( his National glory). Even if he knows this history he is unable to identify 
himself with this. This identification with a nation's past is not a simple 
stuff. For example I cannot expect you to change over the night. It is more 
than a life's process. If you try to start this process of learning about your
past, your history then slowly your next generation is set for the next step
continuing. And this goes on. In fact the same has heppened with PAKISTANIS.
(some what inversely). They have been dis-oriented with their nation, and the
events leading to division is a culmination of this DIS-ORIENTATION process 
which took place in the last one-thousand years. 

Paki-people have gone down in the history defending Indian territory from
Sakas, Greeks, and barbaric groups.
   In the past ten centuries, they were going down in the religious attacks from
their non-easstern frontiers ( mostly from the Islamic block of regions)
and in their process of resistance they lost and were converted. So an 
average pakistani whom you see today is an effect of this process. Even Indian
muslims belong to this category. That is the reason they cannot identify with
the country TODAY. Five hundred years back though these Hindu-to-muslim
converts were initiated into this process they were not as disoriented
as today. The reason again is the same.
   So to reverse this trend we need to initiate a process which will continue
over some period to come. 


>> Now it is our turn to serve them and bring them out
>> of their chaotic life and give them a sense of Direction
> If you think the average Pakistani is dying to have us reward his ancestors'
> blameless suffering by taking him back into the fold of the Indian Union, try 
> to win an election in Pakistan on that plank.
   ---  ACCEPTED. HENCE TRY TO INITIATE A PROCESS AS MENTIONED ABOVE --

>> As a person with this past we should try to merge back and try to achieve
>> the final of  UNDIVIDED BHARAT ( AKHAND BHARAT).
> As a person with this little intelligence you should not have a mainframe 
> account.
No Comments on your intellectual levels. Its for yourself to realise your 
depth. I can just help you in that direction by providing where you basically 
go wrong.

> ****************************************************************************
> Rohan Oberoi
> ("These opinions are not my own, I just made them up.")
> ****************************************************************************

+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
|  The views expressed above are on my personal basis.                 |
|  They ARE NOT MADE UP, but are formed after lot of research and      |
|    are based on rationale                                            |
|  No Group or  Organization   can be held responsible for the above   |
|                                ( for those in quest of truth .......)|
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan