HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: fuller@athena.cs.uga.edu (James P. H. Fuller)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: COVINGTON CROSS
Date: 26 Aug 92 15:06:48 GMT
Organization: University of Georgia, Athens

In article <3439@ra.nrl.navy.mil> luther@i5160e.nrl.navy.mil (Luther) writes:
>Don't forget to tune to ABC tonight (Tuesday) at 10:00pm Eastern Time
>for the debut of COVINGTON CROSS, the new series set in
>Medieval England, starring Nigel Terry. 
>
>Let's hope it's good, and that it lasts.


     Arrrrgh!  The Brady Bunch visits Dallas in plasto-medieval drag.
I *did* hope it would be good.  Now I hope it dies instantly and terribly
but doesn't leave too much of a smell on the furniture....

                                                 -- jf


| James P. H. Fuller, Research Coordinator     Soil/Water Biology Laboratory |
|                                              Institute of Ecology          |
| work: fuller@athena.cs.uga.edu               University of Georgia         |
| home: (crom2 rejoins the bitstream one day)  Athens, GA U.S.A.             |
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,rec.arts.sf.science
From: chris@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Chris Casey)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,alt.fan.eddings
Subject: Re: COVINGTON CROSS
Date: 28 Aug 92 17:13:41 GMT
Article-I.D.: ut-emx.78591
Followup-To: rec.arts.sf.written
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin TX

>It was reviewed in today's Washington Post.  They said it was terrible. It's 
>about a widower with 4 boisterous teenagers straight out of 1992, and differs 
>from the usual boring sitcom only in the clothes worn and a generous sprinkling 
>of thees and thous.

Well, I must admit, I enjoyed it.  True, the characters weren't *completely*
original, but how perfect can they be?  A few of the dramatic scenes seemed a 
little cliche, which bothered me some, but other than that it was more than a 
nice swich from the typical stuff that's been on tv lately.  I enjoyed the humor & I thought the battle scenes were great (of course, I've always like 
swordfights more than gunfights, sooo....), & I'm really not sure how it could
be classified as a sitcom.  Anyway, these are just first impressions I got from
the premier, & hopefully those won't change after a few viewings.  


Chris
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: kennethm@terminus.gatech.edu (Kenneth Moorman)
Subject: Re: Tarot sf and fantasy
Organization: College of Computing
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 15:45:57 GMT

Another novel I haven't seen mentioned yet is 
_The Labyrinth Gate_ by Alis A. Rasmussen.  I'm about 90 percent
through with; it's fairly good.

			- Kenneth Moorman (kennethm@cc.gatech.edu)
From: djdaneh@pbhyc.PacBell.COM (Dan'l DanehyOakes)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Tarot sf and fantasy
Date: 26 Aug 92 18:18:50 GMT
Reply-To: djdaneh@PacBell.COM (Dan'l DanehyOakes)
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA

In article <1992Aug25.182123.25501@hsv3.lsil.com> mvp@hsv3.lsil.com (Mike Van Pelt) writes:

>Another one I haven't seen mentioned is "The Greater Trumps", by
>Charles Williams.  (Good luck finding it...)

Actually, I believe it's in print, from Eerdman's, in Grand Rapids.

		The Pavlov dog and the Schroedinger cat
		Side by side in my forebrain sat
		With Shakespeare's monkeys crowding in behind. . .
		. . . it's all in your mind.
			-- Visual Purple

Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, Net.Roach
My opinions do NOT represent Pacific Bell,
Professional Development, or anyone else.
But I'm willing to share.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,alt.fan.eddings
From: mhr@phoenix.irv.icl.com (MHR {who?})
Subject: Re: COVINGTON CROSS
Summary:  YES YES YES YES YES
Reply-To: mhr@al.irv.icl.com (MHR {who?})
Organization: ICL North America
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 18:28:17 GMT

If you missed it, it was IMNSHO EXCELLENT!  Well written, good humor,
good plot, superb cast (esp. Nigel Terry, who improves once again with
age).  I almost missed it, but my wife had it tuned in at just the right
moment.  Finally a TV show I can get hooked on again.

Of course, this is all hinged upon their ability to maintain the quality
displayed in the debut.  I may even tape it.

Cheers!

-- 
Mark A. Hull-Richter    UUCP:    ccicpg!al!mhr  In all things, restraint,
ICL North America       or: mhr@al.irv.icl.com    especially with respect
9801 Muirlands Blvd                               to posting articles and
Irvine, CA  92713       (714)458-7282x4539        doubly so for flames.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: mfterman@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Mutant for Hire)
Subject: Re: Books On Magic Vs Science
Reply-To: mfterman@phoenix.princeton.edu (Mutant for Hire)
Organization: Mutant for Hire, Inc.
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1992 15:14:42 GMT

Another pair of books which doesn't quite go the science vs magic
route, but comes close, is Bear's _Infinity Concerto_ and the sequel
_The Serpent Mage_, where the Sidhe practice magic, altering the
fundamental music of their dimension, while the humans having lost
their magic long ago, have learned to play along with the music of
their world. Of course, the lead character has to work with both...
-- 
    Martin Terman, Mutant for Hire, Mad Scientist, Priest of Shub-Internet
    Disclaimer: Nobody else takes me seriously, why should you be the first?
mfterman@phoenix.princeton.edu mfterman@pucc.bitnet terman@pupgga.princeton.edu
"Sig quotes are like bumper stickers, only without the same sense of relevance"
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: sdt8s@poe.acc.Virginia.EDU (Steve Tilson)
Subject: Donaldson's Gap Cycle
Organization: University of Virginia
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1992 23:48:06 GMT

I've tremendously enjoyed the first two books of this quintet
and am eagerly awaiting the next one. Am I alone in this?

Steve
--
You are a true believer. Blessings of the state, blessings of the masses.
Thou art a subject of the divine, created in the image of man by the masses,
for the masses. Let us be thankful we have an occupation to fill. Work 
hard...increase production...prevent accidents...and be happy. (THX-1138)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: u906451@bruny.cc.utas.edu.au (Agamemnon)
Subject: Callahan's Bar novels
Organization: University of Tasmania, Australia.
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 02:21:59 GMT


Does anyone know if Spider Robinson wrote any other Callahan's
novels other than _Callahan's Crazy Crosstime Bar_?

Please reply via e-mail
Thank you in advance,
Damien


--
Damien Saunders     (Gunnar Njalsson)
E-mail: u906451@bruny.cc.utas.edu.au
'He's got droid rot, He's waving a bannana about and calling it a
female aardvark' - Rimmer. From 'Camille': Red Dwarf series 4
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: aaron@space.ualberta.ca (Aaron Humphrey)
Subject: Re: Wolvertons "On My Way to Paradise
Reply-To: aaron@space.ualberta.ca
Organization: University Of Alberta, Edmonton Canada
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1992 18:33:39 GMT

weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener) writes:
: In article <1992Aug25.155814.18752@pbhyc.PacBell.COM>, djdaneh@pbhyc (Dan'l DanehyOakes) writes:
: >(Seriously:  OMWtP is a damn good book.  I refrained from reviewing it when
: >it came out because I'd just praised David Zindell's NEVERNESS -- also a damn
: >good book -- and didn't want to be accused of puffing for WotF winners' books.)
: 
: Personally, I've avoided reading WotF winners.

Well, I've been very impressed with the work of Ray Aldridge and R. Garcia y
Robertson that I've seen in F&SF and Asimov's.  And I've heard good things
about Robert Reed(who won under the pseudonym Robert Touzalin).

Which reminds me--one of my favourite WoTF stories was "The Book of Time" (I
think)by Camilla Decarnin(I think).  Has anyone seen anything else from her?
Her style was very reminiscent of Jo Clayton, whose books I usually enjoy.

--
---Alfvaen(a.k.a. Nysinra, rot13 Psycho)
"Je vais encore sortir ce soir-- Je le regretterai sans doute"
Current Album--Etienne Daho:La Notte, La Notte
Current Read--IASFM November '89
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,rec.org.sca
From: bs@gauss.mitre.org (Robert D. Silverman)
Subject: Re: COVINGTON CROSS
Organization: Research Computer Facility, MITRE Corporation, Bedford, MA
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 13:11:03 GMT

In article <1992Aug29.062720.8161@ccu.umanitoba.ca> thorntn@ccu.umanitoba.ca (Duncan Peter G. Thornton) writes:
:In <1992Aug28.191831.23811@enterprise.rdd.lmsc.lockheed.com> baylor@force.ssd.lmsc.lockheed.com writes:
:
:>In article <1992Aug28.162113.23261@samba.oit.unc.edu>, Ann.Feeney@bbs.oit.unc.edu (Ann Feeney) writes:
:

Stuff deleted.....


Why is this silly discussion of a (supposed) Middle Ages  *TV*  show
being conducted in a newsgroup devoted to *written* science fiction??

What has one got to do with the other?

Please edit your newsgroups line.
--
Bob Silverman
These are my opinions and not MITRE's.
Mitre Corporation, Bedford, MA 01730
"You can lead a horse's ass to knowledge, but you can't make him think"
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: firth@sei.cmu.edu (Robert Firth)
Subject: Re: Something Nasty in the Human Genome
Organization: Software Engineering Institute
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 12:46:55 GMT

In article <1992Sep3.031844.21399@news.eng.convex.com> cash@convex.com (Peter Cash) writes:

>Kind of intriguing...makes me think that information is encoded in the DNA
>in ways other than the direct code we know about. Hmmm...how about a
>fractal data compression algorithm? Maybe it's a picture of God?

Maybe it says something like

	This bioartifact is Copyright Sirian Biotechnology Ltd,
	GE 124,041.  Unauthorised reproduction prohibited under
	Galactic Code 774689231554, sect 666.
From: curtis@berkeley.edu (Curtis Yarvin)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Piers Anthony's Xanth Series
Date: 29 Aug 92 06:52:33 GMT
Organization: CS Dept. Snakepit - Do Not Feed.

In article <1992Aug29.035510.24961@openage.openage.com> ghost@openage.openage.com (Glenn Host) writes:
>
>Thanks for mentioning the latest Xanth book is out
>So long is between them I forget to make a special trip to
>the book store to pick it up.
>
>Too bad there aren't too many authors who can have fun with a book now -
>too many too serious writers. 

Bah.  Fun?  You ain't seen fun yet, buddy boy.  

Go find some Michael Kandel and stuff yer face.  Or, hell,
Lem! Pynchon! - and pray you don't choke.  

Fun?  You'll be shitting fun for a month.  And none of your
Anthony runs - warm & heavy & sweet enough to plant okra in.

c
From: 9032754@ul.ie
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Zelazny Bibliography wanted
Date: 27 Aug 92 14:28:27 GMT
Organization: University of Limerick, Ireland

Does anybody have a Roger Zelazny bibliography, I'm especially interested in
his second amber series.

E-Mail 9032754@itd1.ul.ie

Thanks.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: karls@aurora.physics.utoronto.ca (Karl Schroeder)
Subject: Gormenghast vol. 3
Summary: Titus Alone is worth readinG
Keywords: Peake, insanity  
Organization: University of Toronto Physics/Astronomy/CITA
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 14:40:08 GMT

When Mervyn Peake came to write the third volume of the Titus books,
he had begun to suffer from a neurological disorder which eventually
killed him.  However, the conception of the third book dates from before
this, and although he did not write it as well as he would have liked,
he did write what he intended.
   There are confusions, omissions, bad prose and so on throughout
Titus Alone.  It is not as good as the other two books.  Castle Gormenghast
is not present in the story, nor are any of its denizens whom we have
learned to love by the time we finish volume 2.  This is disappointing.
But the trilogy is partly about growing up, and putting fascinations
behind you.  Titus does this, and so there are strong thematic reasons
why he is out there in the bleak, unfriendly world described in vol. 3.
   ...I'll put it this way.  Gormenghast as a whole is a tremendous piece
of sustained irony.  Up until the very last page of Titus Alone, I thought
Peake had lost touch with his themes.  When I read the final page, I
was SO glad I had stuck it out.  I don't believe one can understand the
books without reading that last page, and everything leading up to it.
   In short:  although Peake's technical abilities failed him in the third
book, he knew exactly what he wanted to say, and DID say it.  It is a
tragedy that he was unable to say it as elegantly as he wanted. 
-- 
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Karl Schroeder                         |  karls@aurora.physics.utoronto.ca  
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: d_moran@pain.la.ca.us (Daniel Keys Moran)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Continuing Time
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 92 17:59:46 PDT
Organization: Public Access Info Network  (818/776-1447)

  Simon Tong (stong@ariel) mentioned that people were arguing about this 
over here -- this being the damn wall again.
  Relax, okay? Think whatever you like about it. David Gerrold thought 
that Trent had walked through the wall (and was pissed that I hadn't set 
up Trent's ability to do so more thoroughly); Amy Stout, my former editor 
at Bantam who I love and who is one of the very nicest people I've ever 
met, decided instantly upon reading the mss. that Trent had never walked 
through the wall, that it was a holograph set up by Ralf the Wise and 
Powerful.
  All I'm really inclined to say about it is, I ain't saying.
  I will say that one argument I've been told about is incorrect. Trent 
did not cut through the wall with an emblade, and then display a holof of 
the wall over the hole in the wall. The wall was solid. So ... either 
Trent walked through the wall, or Ralf animated a holo of him walking 
through the wall.
  It's not an accident, BTW, that all that setup regarding the holo 
theory is there. By the time of the AI War, Mohammed Vance has figured 
out that it was just a holo, and tells Trent so just before killing him.
  Whether that's a correct deduction or not, I ain't saying.
  Was told today by Betsy Mitchell at Bantam that "The Last Dancer" is 
scheduled for Fall '93. I wish it could be sooner, but it's out of my 
hands. However, next books in the series should come pretty quick on its 
heels.
  We now return you to your regularly scheduled arguing....

"There are no longer "dancers," the possessed. The cleavage of men into 
actors and spectators is the central fact of our times. We are obsessed 
with heroes who live for us and whom we punish . . . We have 
metapmorphised from a mad body dancing on hillsides to a pair of eyes 
staring in the dark." -- Jim Morrison, quoted in "The Last Dancer."
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: eliz@ai.mit.edu (Elizabeth Willey)
Subject: The "canon" of modern fantasy coming back into print?
Organization: MIT Artificial Intelligence Laboratory
Distribution: rec.arts.sf.written
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1992 21:03:56 GMT

Last year the (regrettably-covered) _The Worm Ourobouros_ was issued;
now a compendium volume of the other three Zimiamvian books is
reportedly on the way.

Peake's _Gormenghast_ trilogy is back out in attractive large-format
paperback.

Walton's Mabinogion-based fantasies appear to be coming out again,
re-issued by Collins or Collier (sorry, I was just skimming).

Have there been any other sightings of or mootings about more reprints
of fabulous classic fantasies of their ilk?  For example, I believe
_Lud in the Mist_ is currently OOP; Morris is always OOP, it seems;
Fletcher Pratt's non-de Camp stuff isn't around; Munn wasn't that
great but he was *different* and he's OOP; C. P. Gilman's _Herland_ is
OOP and so is most of Dunsany.  Arkham House has kept the Lovecraft
gang on a heart-lung machine driven by love for years, but only the
most accessible Lovecraft ever seems to get picked up by any
mass-market-minded house.

Publishers gotta love these books; they don't have to pay the authors
(or their estates) advances or royalties in most cases!  So where are
they?


Elizabeth Willey

[PS: Yes, I get _Locus_; no, I do not pore over the "forthcoming"
section in hopes that one of these will turn up]
From: dave@cs.arizona.edu (Dave Schaumann)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Books on Magic vs Science
Date: 26 Aug 92 01:10:06 GMT
Reply-To: dave@cs.arizona.edu (Dave Schaumann)
Organization: University of Arizona

In article <1992Aug25.131931.1@vaxa.strath.ac.uk>, ciar04@vaxa writes:
>Are there any books that dwell on the battle between magic and science? 
>I seem to recall seeing some (or at least one) books on this, but I
>don't seem to be able to find any at the local book stores.

Roger Zelazny had a book about 10 years ago called _Changeling_(?)
that is pretty much exactly that.  The sequal is called _Madwand_.
As I recall, it left room for more sequels, but I don't know if he
wrote any more.

-- 
What signature?
From: scratch+@pitt.edu (Steven J Owens)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Image (was Re: Continuing Time)
Date: 30 Aug 92 07:40:53 GMT
Organization: University of Pittsburgh

In article <FRANCIS.92Aug28093619@galois.dogwood.atl.ga.us> francis@dogwood.atl.ga.us (John Stracke) writes:
>In article <3022@ariel.its.unimelb.EDU.AU> stong@ariel.its.unimelb.EDU.AU (Simon Tong) writes:
>
>>What do people think of Moran's concept of using an "image" like 
>>Ralf and Johnny Johnny to represent a human in a computer 
>>network ?  
>>This is slightly different from Gibson's idea of a person being 
>>'inside' a matrix him/herself.  Do you think Moran's version is 
>>more attainable ?
>
>Try "attainable", period--Gibson's idea is not practical, simply on
>the grounds that brains think too slowly.  If a human (or genie) went
>into the Crystal Wind alone, the natives (web angels, AIs), could tear
>hir to shreds.  The Image reacts with the speed of the Wind.  At the
>same time, guided by a human mind, it avoids the flexibility
>difficulties that would probably plauge the ferrets in Brin's _Earth_.

	Well, my copies of Emerald Eyes and The Long Run are 1400
miles away, but if I recall correctly, the Image is essentially a
bundle of programs that preprocess network data into something 
slightly more intelligible to human minds, and act as the player's
hands on the network. 

	I've been trying to come up with a pithy phrase to describe
the relationship, which is sort of the inverse of a client-server
relationship, but nothing particularly comes to mind, except possibly
"agent", which is still an incomplete analogy.  The relationship is a
little fuzzier than what I've described, which is where the "magic" of
the player-image interaction comes in.

	Attainable?  Moran is certainly more into the technology than
Gibson is, witness the fact that he's on the Internet.  Gibson's first
two novels were written on a typewriter, his third on an Apple IIe.
Perhaps his vision is more attainable, but it's still a dream of the
far distant future.  Go hang out on alt.cyberpunk or Fidonet's SF-lit
echo (unless it's gone away in the last few years since I stopped
reading it).  They discuss the technological possiblities fairly
frequently.

Steven J. Owens
scratch@unix.cis.pitt.edu

(I wonder if anybody's ever shown DKM the mud-scene...)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: richard@csi.on.ca (Richard Martin)
Subject: Re: What are the best fantasy books involving dragons?
Organization: Carp Systems International, Kanata, ON
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 17:29:47 GMT

The _Silmarillion_ has a pretty vicious dragon too, if I remember
correctly.  Can't remember his name, though.
Richard.
-- 
Richard Martin               	richard@csi.on.ca
If I had anything witty to say, I wouldn't put it here.
Organization: The Leader Desslok School of Diplomacy
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 15:20:13 EDT
From: Norman St. John Polevaulter <MBS110@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Up in Flames anthology

Now, several months ago on this group (concurrent with Doug Merritt's
great cataclysmic ending for Brin's Startide Rising/Sundiver/etc. series)
there was mention of a possibly upcoming anthology, titled _Up in Flames_. In
it, writers of popular science fiction series were invited to turn their
universes upside down, a la Larry Niven's infamous "Down in Flames" story
outline.

Did I imagine this? Did it fall through? Or can we actually look forward
to it...?

[Your blood pressure just went up.]       Mark Sachs IS: mbs110@psuvm.psu.edu
       DISCLAIMER: If it ain't money, Penn State doesn't care about it.
   "Ladies and gentlemen, I've suffered for my music! Now it's your turn!"

(incidentally, since Asimov is dead he obviously can't contribute, but I'd
say _Foundation and Earth_ will do nicely for his entry. :-) :-o)
From: cougar@amiganet.chi.il.us (Chris Wagner)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Perry Rhodan
Date: 1 Sep 92 22:18:34 GMT
Organization: Amiga Network Information Systems

Hey! Are there any PR fans in the US?
Mail me!

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
     ____      ____   _____ ____ _____  |Chris Wagner, Stgt, FRG      |
    / __ \ __ /___ \ / ___// ___\\___ \ |Official free-lance HACK-MAG |
   / /_/ //_/    / // __/ / /__     / / |editor.                      |
  /_____/        \/ \____\\____\    \/  |>>cougar@amiganet.chi.il.us<<|
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,rec.arts.sf.science
From: gapdrr@gsusgi2.gsu.edu (Daniel R T Rothman)
Subject: Re: Moties and the prisoner's dilemma
Organization: Georgia State University
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 15:00:33 GMT

morlan@afit.af.mil (Bruce W. Morlan) writes:

>throopw@sheol.UUCP (Wayne Throop) writes:

>>I didn't see the notions of the iterated prisoner's dilemma's impact on
>>evolutionary thought applied to the question of the Moties and their
>>cycles, so I thought I'd post a line or two, since the idea seems
>>interesting.

>< Large and well done discussion of the prisoner's dilemma deleted >

>The formulation of the prisoner's dilemma is tricky.  IMHO, any payoff
>matrix that allows infection and eventual overcome of a pure defect
>strategy population by a TIT-FOR-TAT group probably is not a "true"
>prisoner's dilemma situation.  We could call this situation a
>pseudo-prisoner's dilemma.  The reason this is important is that
>often historical situations are labeled, "Prisoner's Dilemma" that
>are more likely pseudo-prisoner's dilemmas.  A prisoner's dilemma
>situation should be unstable for cooperation.  I believe that one
>of the referenced works gives the exact range of payoff ratios that
>result in a prisoner's dilemma.

I must most humbly disagree. The INDIVIDUAL, local payoffs have been
calculated to the Nth degree. This is true. But I seem to recall that
in studies of computer intelligence the prisoner's dillemma is often
used as the base problem for algorithm generation. The last time I
heard anything about it, the MOST SUCCESSFUL, in the long term, was
NOT an always defect strategy, but a tit-for-tat.

daniel rothman
From: jlpicard@austin.ibm.com (Craig Becker)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Continuing Time
Keywords: Continuing Time Trent Long Run
Date: 26 Aug 92 15:36:39 GMT
Reply-To: craigb@ot.austin.ibm.com
Organization: IBM Object Technology Products
Originator: jlpicard@woofer.austin.ibm.com


d_moran@pain.la.ca.us (Daniel Keys Moran) writes:

[lotsa stuff about Trent, Denice, and the Continuing Time deleted]

So, I still wanna know: did he walk through the f***ing wall or not?

:-)

Craig
-- 
-- "You can expect virtually      Craig Becker, Object Technology Products --
--  anything from a people who had      Internet: craigb@ot.austin.ibm.com --
--  nuclear weapons in the early      IBM TR: craigb@woofer.austin.ibm.com --
--  seventeenth century."                           VNET: CRAIGB at AUSVM1 --