From: carroll@bifur.cis.udel.edu (Mark C. Carroll)
Subject: Re: Rashi's quote (was Re: Almah - Betulah)
Organization: University of Delaware, Newark
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 17:05:11 GMT

In article <LJMORLY.93Jan23122603@polaris.utu.fi> ljmorly@polaris.utu.fi (Laura Johanna Manninen) writes:
]In article <1jpcf1INNiui@terminator.rs.itd.umich.edu> jlove@ivrit.ra.itd.umich.edu (Jack Love) writes:
]] In article <LJMORLY.93Jan22181811@polaris.utu.fi> ljmorly@polaris.utu.fi (Laura Johanna Manninen) writes:
]] ]] Actually, Laura, li'valed is the rabbinic Hebrew niphal infinitive
]] ]] of the root yod.lamed.dalet.
]] ]
]] ]There's 'heh' in between, whereas in the above there isn't. And
]] ]what do you mean by rabbinic Hebrew ? 
]
]] Exactly. In rabbinic Hebrew, the letter "heh" is frequently elided.
]
]Oh. But it isn't one of the letters you can elide just like that...
]
]] This doesn't mean that in the particular citation you're looking
]] at we do have a nifal--I'd have to take the time to actually
]] look at the text and see whether there are variants, etc.
]
]Please do that.
]
]] As for what I mean by "rabbinic Hebrew": The term is a general
]] one suitable for all Hebrew following the close of the Biblical
]] period and until the beginning of modern and Israeli Hebrew.
]
]Oh, are there both modern and Israeli Hebrew ? What's the difference ?
]BTW I wouldn't call modern Hebrew "rabbinic Hebrew", since the Rabbis
]in Jerusalem where all the time making troubles for Eliezer ben Yehuda...
](Maybe they didn't want their students to start reading Tanach on their
]own...)

Well, as I understand it: Hebrew has been evolving through it's usage
for a long time. The end of that process is what is referred to as
modern hebrew.

When Israel was established, the language went through many changes as
it became a common-use language. The common-use language is Israeli
hebrew. It differs from the "Modern" hebrew in pronounciations, and
some of the grammatical constructs. (This is from memory, from an old
friend of my family who grew up in Yemen, speaking what he called
"traditional modern" hebrew, and had some trouble communicating when
he came to Israel because of the differences in pronounciation in
Israeli Hebrew.)

At any rate: there are differences in the language, and you've got to
be very careful when studying Torah that you don't impose modern/Israeli
meanings/interpretations on biblical hebrew.

]] A good point, Laura, but not necessarily. In the first place, you
]] are assuming that the nifal represents the passive voice.
]
]Well, here it does. 'Lehivaled' means 'to be born'. 

Support? (Proof by assertion doesn't work; we can go back and forth
forever where you say "It means this", and we say "It means that".
Provide some support, or some reference, or a citation that we can
verify to prove your point.


]...
]] hardly a passive voice construction! Because the nifal is 
]] much more flexible than your response would indicate, we would
]] have to look at your citation a bit more closely to see how
]] it might best be translated.
]
]I did already. And since others have also translated lamed-vav-lamed-dalet
]as 'to give birth', there shouldn't be any problems with that.

Again, support. 



]<grin] Thanks for your effort <grin]. Funny thing... I just read it 
]through and saw the meaning... As did a friend of mine who has lived
]in Israel for 20 years... 

And again, how about some support?  (Living in Israel doesn't make
anyone an expert on Biblical hebrew!)

	<MC>
-- 
[ Mark Craig Carroll <MC> ] You say you know no tricks, have no talents -
[ U of Delaware, CIS Dept ] Isn't everyone supposed to have their own?
[ Grad Student/Lab Hacker ] Yes, but few are obvious. Few draw notice to those
[ carroll@udel.edu        ] who posess them, like flags waving themselves.
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