HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: smith@ctron.com (Larry Smith)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: The rec.arts.{comics.}manga wars continue
Date: 13 Apr 92 14:04:13 GMT
Reply-To: smith@ctron.com
Organization: Cabletron Systems, Inc.

In article <axolotl.702879000@syzygy>, axolotl@socs.uts.edu.au (Iain Sinclair) writes:
>rec.arts.comics          
>rec.arts.comics.manga   .... manga is subordinate to comics.
>                        .... manga are derived from comics.
>                        .... manga are less than comics.
>                        .... manga are a subset of comics.
>
>rec.arts.comics
>rec.arts.manga          .... manga sits alongside comics.
>                        .... manga is an equivalent art form to comics.
>                        .... manga and comics are of equal importance.
>
>
>No value judgement?
>Iain Sinclair   axolotl@socs.uts.edu.au                             ne cede.

I knew it.  Iain, you are just, plain, 100%, wrong, wrong, wrong.  The
hierarchy means nothing of the sort, not nobody, not no how.

It boggles my mind to think exactly how wrong you are.

This is an INDEXING scheme, rec.arts.comics.manga says only that manga are
some species of comics, which is exactly what they are.  Look at the heir-
archy you are already working with?  Is "comics" subordinate to "arts"?
Are they derived from "arts"?  are they "less than" "arts"?  It might be
argued they are a subset of arts, but no more so than manga is a subset of
comics.

Get this idea out of your head or there will be no rational debate on the 
matter.  There will be many flames, much heat, and a big, fat NO vote that
will kill your group no matter where you think it ought to be.

No, it isn't a value judgement.  I will make allowance for your apparent
inexperience with the net and not call you an idiot for making such a state-
ment.  But if you continue to hold with this idea, then an idiot you will
certainly be.

Larry Smith (smith@ctron.com) No, I don't speak for Cabletron.
-------------------------------------------------------------
I have come to the conclusion that one useless man is called a "disgrace",
that two are called a "law firm", and that three or more become a "Congress".
Date: 13 Apr 92 03:17:39 GMT
From: axolotl@socs.uts.edu.au (Iain Sinclair)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.arts.manga
Reply-To: axolotl@socs.uts.edu.au
Organization: University of Technology, Sydney

geoffb@coos.dartmouth.edu (Geoff Bronner) writes:
 >This would remove the vague 'rec.arts.comics' infavor of the more common
 >.misc and would place your precious 'manga' on the same level as the evil
 >western comics you dislike so much.

Beg pardon?  None of the proponents of rec.arts.manga has denigrated comics
in any way.  While it's true that there is little overlap in readership,
we're only pointing out that the media are -different-, and warrant separate
treatment in the namespace.

I anticipate that rec.arts.comics readers (and sci.lang.japan readers,
and rec.arts.anime readers, and soc.culture.* readers, et al) would get a
lot out of rec.arts.manga,  and would do well to vote for its creation.


--
Iain Sinclair   axolotl@socs.uts.edu.au                             ne cede.
From: jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.arts.manga
Date: 8 Apr 1992 14:42:39 GMT
Organization: UT Health Science Center Houston

In article <8APR199215101438@vms2.iscs.nus.sg> limkiong@vms2.iscs.nus.sg (Twas brillig, and the slithy toves...) writes:
>In article <1992Apr7.145126.12954@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu>, wald@theory.lcs.mit.edu (David Wald) writes...
>>  1) If the CFV is for rec.arts.manga, I will vote against it.
>I really hope u will keep ur mind open on the subject until the CFV.

I'm with David: if it's rec.arts.manga, it gets a NO vote from me; if it's
under rec.arts.comics, then it gets a YES vote. Simple. There's been no
argument so far that's even *tried* to explain why manga aren't comics; just a
lot of assertions that they're different. Maybe I'm uninformed. OK, fine:
inform me.
-- 
Jay Maynard, EMT-P, K5ZC, PP-ASEL | Never ascribe to malice that which can
jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu      | adequately be explained by a .sig virus.
         "Grow up children. Purchase lives." -- Geoff Collyer
From: duane@thismoment.EBay.Sun.COM (Duane Day)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: 2nd RFD: SCIA ( Is a new CFV really needed ?)
Date: 13 Apr 92 18:55:01 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Mt. View, Ca.
NNTP-Posting-Host: thismoment.ebay.sun.com

In article <1992Apr13.180314.26965@cbnewsi.cb.att.com> alok@cbnewsi.cb.att.com (alok.vijayvargia) writes:
>> 
>> (One wonders in passing why the "failed" verdict would require a 2/3
>> majority.)
>> 
>
>Because it is like overturning a veto. I am vetoeing the new RFD/CFV
>as the proposer/vote-taker of the first RFD/CFV which is being questioned.
>To overturn my veto, at least 2/3 of the votes should be against my 
>position.

Great - now Alok fancies himself President.

I eagerly await his announcement that he has promoted himself to "God".

Give it a rest.

--

Hypocrisy is the vaseline |UUCP: ...!sun!EBay!thismoment!duane
of political intercourse. |INTN: duane@EBay.sun.com
   -  Billy Connolly      |USPS: 2550 Garcia Ave. M/S M3-76, Mtn. View CA 94042
Newsgroups: news.groups,soc.culture.indian.american,soc.culture.indian
From: alok@cbnewsi.cb.att.com (alok.vijayvargia)
Subject: Re: 2nd RFD: SCIA (A violation of net guidelines)
Organization: AT&T
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1992 00:25:42 GMT
Followup-To: news.groups

> In article <CKD.92Apr6184721@loiosh.eff.org>, ckd@eff.org (Christopher Davis)
> says:
> >
> > Alok> == alok.vijayvargia  <alok@cbnewsi.cb.att.com>
> >
> > Alok> While I maintain that the initial reasons for taking it off the
> > Alok> official list were the problems associated with its name, I would
> > Alok> also like to point out that whatever the reasons for earlier SCIA
> > Alok> group to be not official, the current RFD is a clear VIOLATION of
> > Alok> the net guidelines.
> >
> >This is incorrect; in the case of an invalidated vote, a revote is *not*
> >contraSpafual.  The precedent was set quite effectively after the first
> >rec.arts.sf-lovers reorganization vote...
> >

Then the precedence should be reexamined.

Violation here is in posting the second RFD for SCIA before six months
have expired.

Furthermore the previos vote of SCIA HAS NOT BEEN INVALIDATED YET.
Not officially. Why ?  I believe it is because the objections are 
either trivial or simply objectionable enough not to invalidate
the previous vote.

> >--
> >Christopher Davis <ckd@eff.org> |    ECONOMIC OBSERVATIONS DEPARTMENT
> >System Manager & Postmaster     |  "There's always something going out of
> >Electronic Frontier Foundation  |      business in Central Square."
> >+1 617 864 0665  NIC: [CKD1]    |   -Rita Marie Rouvalis <rita@eff.org>


Alok Vijayvargia
From: frye@cerl.uiuc.edu (G. David Frye)
Subject: Re: creation of eunet.aviation
Organization: UIUC Computer-based Education Research Lab
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1992 21:59:17 GMT

In article <6351@lib.tmc.edu> jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard) writes
about the practice of flaming non-US writers for generalizing discussions to
include European aviation issues.

>Geoff Peck's netiquette posting specifically discourages this. I would suggest
>a reply flame (via email) to the miscreants, and then ignoring them. I'm sorry
>that there are people who would drive others away from this group because of
>their nationality. Perhaps someone who has been engaging in such flamage could
>attempt to defend themselves?

I did this privately, on one or two occasions, but not because the participant
was non-US -- rather because the posting was irrelevant.  I gave it up because
it didn't work and because it was misinterpreted as nationalism.

I believe that a newsgroup of this magnitude requires frequent reminders to
its participants to KEEP THE DISCUSSION ON TRACK.  A thread which begins as a
specific question about application of a US FAR is not enhanced by telling the
requester how it's done in some other country XYZ.  I think the idea of "neti-
quette" works in both directions -- it's important to build an international
community of aviation enthusiasts, and this newsgroup is a crucial tool, but
rec.aviation is also a specific source of specific information to individuals
who come here to ask specific questions to which they seek specific answers.
Sometimes, in my darker moments, I wonder if our non-American posters lose
sight of that need out of a desire to "be a part of it all."

G. David Frye
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
INTERNET: frye@cerl.uiuc.edu   NovaNET: frye / s / nova   PHONE: (217) 333-7439
   reminder:  I post all email flame back to the newsgroup that generated it.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: news.groups,news.admin
From: gberigan@cse.unl.edu (Life...)
Subject: Re: BENDING THE GUIDELINES IS BAD NEWS
Organization: Ursa Minor Beta, 402-476-8047 @ 2400
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1992 00:22:11 GMT

peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) writes:
>gberigan@cse.unl.edu (Life...) writes:

>>The precedent was already set when rec.games.video made split out the
>>rec.games.video.arcade group.  A conditional statement was made
>>regarding the results there.  And the vote and newgroup went through.

>I missed that one. Could you elaborate?

When it was to be split, the ballot elements were "create
rec.games.video.arcade" and "rec.games.video.home".  If both passed,
r.g.v was to be rmgrouped.  If only .arcade passed, r.g.v would stay.
If only .home passed, nothing would be done (I raised hell over that,
but it was already in the CFV, and that condition was never met, as
.arcade passed and .home failed).

Not the same type of conditional, but a conditional none-the-less.

--
  ///   ____   \\\       | CAUTION:
  | |/ /    \ \| |       | Avoid eye contact.  In case of contact, flush
   \\_|\____/|_//        | mind for 15 minutes.  See a psychiatrist if
       \_)\\/            | irritation persists.  Not to be taken
gberigan `-' cse.unl.edu | seriously.  Keep out of sight of children.
From: hades@coos.dartmouth.edu (Hades)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.arts.manga
Date: 8 Apr 92 14:34:41 GMT
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH

albertw@netcom.com (Albert Wong) writes:

>What's more efficient? rec.arts.comic.manga or just rec.arts.manga?
>Should all the manga translations go under
>rec.arts.comics.manga.translations?  It has the potential of being
>very ineffecient.

    The efficiency I'm talking about is in regards to organizational
efficiency. If groups are put into proper sub-hierarchies, it makes it
easier for your sites new admin to control how the groups get to your
site. It makes it possible for them to select an entire hierarchy, or
not, with only one statement, instead of a statement for each group.
(Please note: I am not a news admin, and I really only have a passing
knowledge of how these things work, but I'm pretty sure this is the
case) 
    As for r.a.c.m.translations... is there a alt.manga.translations? If
not, then what makes you think there will be a r.a.c.m.translations. You
are talking about subgroups of a group that doesn't even exist yet.

>And you mention that a name doesn't have any intrinsic value, so
>what's wrong with rec.arts.manga?  It's just a name, ya know. ^_^

    See my comments about organization above.
--
-Hades  (Brian V. Hughes)   | Common Taxpayer Q&A: Q. If I use the 1040 how
 hades@Coos.Dartmouth.Edu   | do I indicate my preference for the Elvis stamp?
 Mac Database Developer     | A. You write THIN ELVIS or FAT ELVIS in the box
 Dartmouth Medical School   | "Spouse's Social Security #." -Dave Barry
From: gritton@alaska.caedm.byu.edu (Jamie Gritton)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RESULT:  soc.religion.mormon fails 135: 169
Date: 13 Apr 92 18:47:53 GMT
	<1992Apr13.175451.4542@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu>
Reply-To: gritton@byu.edu
Organization: Brigham Young University, Provo UT USA

arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee) writes:

>It doesn't matter in this case, but how can one be certain this was indeed an
>attempt by one person to stuff the ballot box?  In the case of
>misc.activism.progressive, a large number of votes were received from the
>same site (actually a gateway), and these votes too were all the same.  Suppose
>mordor is a gateway of some type, and the people a mailing list all of whom
>voted no?  (This would explain the one yes vote.  Perhaps the votes arrived in
>minutes because the gateway only forwards its mail at specific times, and the
>forwarding time is the time listed on the message.)  Or suppose the people on
>the machine are some sort of class or organization, and their teacher/leader/
>whatever suggested they all vote no?

   That's a possibility, though I don't think it's a likely one.
The key point is that it doesn't matter in this case. Had it affected
the outcome of the vote, I would have held off discounting the votes.

   I may end up holding off anyway. I notice that the results were posted
to soc.religion.christian,talk.religion.misc, but not news.announce.newgroups,
news.groups. It may be that David Lawrence doesn't like that judgement
and thus has held off posting. Hmm... I'd better talk to him about it.
--
James Gritton - gritton@byu.edu - I disclaim
From: lazlo@triton.unm.edu (Lazlo Nibble)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: rec.arts.comics.manga is anomalous and misleading.
Date: 9 Apr 92 07:34:04 GMT
Article-I.D.: lynx.awrj5+=
Organization: Living in a satellite fantasy, waiting for the night to end.

axolotl@socs.uts.edu.au writes:

>> The best-known Western reference on manga (Fredrick Schodt's MANGA!
>> MANGA!) refers to manga as "Japanese comics" in the title. 
>
> Yeah, then goes on to explain that they're nothing like comics, with
> much stronger influences from indigenous art forms.  Go away and read it
> before you post another article. 

Have done, several times.  Schodt makes it VERY clear that while the
medium's origins and (usually) subject matter are different from that in
the western comics tradition, their forms and presentation are exactly the
same.  If you want the manga group to focus on the form's ties to Japanese
cultural history, create rec.arts.japan and put it *there*.  Otherwise:
they walk like comics, they talk like comics, they smell like comics -- so
they're *comics*.  

>> This is an international net.  From the point of view of the vast
>> majority of people on the net, "manga" refers only to one kind of comic
>> book -- namely the Japanese kind. 
>
> Also the HK kind, the Taiwanese kind, and the increasingly large number
> of Western comics with manga influences. 

Conceded.  So now you can explain to me again why these Japanese,
Taiwanese, and Hong Kong comics aren't *really* comics (They're MANGA!)
and therefore don't belong in the comics hierarchy.   

>> since manga are a type of comics ... 
>
> Wrong, wrong, wrong.  Comics and manga are as different as boxing and
> martial arts.  

Goddammit all to hell, "comics" means "PRINTED STORIES TOLD PRIMARILY
THROUGH VISUAL IMAGERY," not "OVERMUSCLED SUPER-TYPES IN LONG UNDERWEAR
WHO BEAT UP ON EACH OTHER".  Manga are comics just like boxing is a
martial art.  *Why* is this so *difficult* for you to *understand*?

--
Lazlo (lazlo@triton.unm.edu)
From: limkiong@vms2.iscs.nus.sg (Twas brillig, and the slithy toves...)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.arts.manga
Date: 8 Apr 92 12:54:00 GMT
Article-I.D.: vms2.8APR199214543734
Organization: National University of Singapore Dept. of Computer Sc.
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <CKD.92Apr6161106@loiosh.eff.org>, ckd@eff.org (Christopher Davis) writes...
>So push for rec.arts.comics => rec.arts.comics.misc.  It'll probably
>happen sooner or later anyway.

This is highly unlikely to happen. Do you know how many people read that group?
Can you imagine the screams that will echo throughout the net if this is
proposed?

>*All* comics and comic-like media (strips, etc) should be in one
>hierarchy: rec.arts.comics.*.

Why is it even under arts? Why not rec.comics? Then we can have :

rec.comics.western (or US)
rec.comics.manga
etc... etc..

>The fact that the root group is "rec.arts.comics" rather than
>"rec.arts.comics.misc" is a historical accident that can be easily
>corrected.

Not unless Usenet is a tyranny.
From: jkim@jingoro.Eng.Sun.COM (Jun Kim)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: rec.arts.comics.manga is anomalous and misleading.
Date: 15 Apr 92 01:57:41 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Mt. View, Ca.
NNTP-Posting-Host: jingoro

In article <1992Apr14.200500.17240@u.washington.edu> gwangung@milton.u.washington.edu (Just another theatre geek.....) writes:
>In article <kum54nINNsji@exodus.Eng.Sun.COM> jkim@jingoro.Eng.Sun.COM (Jun Kim) writes:
>>In article <1992Apr13.203326.9375@daimi.aau.dk> rorschak@daimi.aau.dk (Jesper Lauridsen) writes:
>>>  If I was to buy some mange in this town (placed in non-english country)
>>>I would go down to shop called "comics".
>>Personally speaking, I can't find my manga outside of Japanese bookstores.
>
>	Considering where you are, you're not looking very hard.

Ok, I couldn't find KOR, Sesame Street (no not the one with B. Bird), 
and Maison Ikkoku at my friendly neighborhood comics shop.  I used to
live in Berkeley, and in my experience, I haven't been to a better comics
shop than the ones there.  They don't have the titles I mentioned there.

I visit several comics shops up and down the San Francisco Penninsula
looking for several comics titles there, and I don't find the titles
I mentioned above there.

Where I did find these titles were at the various Kino(something or other)
stores in the various J-towns around here, as well as a Japanese gift
shop in San Jose.

I looked _very_ hard for these books.  They were _very_ hard to find.
They are not obsure titles either.  Just rather popular and hard to keep
in stock.  

I was just relating my experience.  If you could find those titles in the 
stores I looked through, then yes, I didn't look hard enough.  Having never 
seen those titles there though (and yes, I frequent comics stores enough
to keep up to date on my titles and to look for lost back issues) I
don't consider those stores a source for my manga.

Now, the obvious next point will be to say that those stores do have the
various translated versions of a few titles.  Two things here.  First is
that many are either abridged or cut short.  To make a small analogy,
it would be like abridging or cutting short the "Watchmen".  Secondly,
the translation leaves certain things to be desired.  Depending on your
tolerance of these two points, you might find those translations fine.

If I like the titles enough, though, I usually get both.  Usually, I find
subtle or blatant changes, mistakes, edits, etc.  It's kind of like
watching a movie on network TV after having seen it on the big screen.  You
usually find differences.  

Anyway, that's the reason why I can't find the manga I want in comics stores.
(Oops, ran longer than I wanted...)

 
--
Jun Kim                                         jkim@jingoro.Eng.Sun.Com
Sun Microsystems                               
Mountain View, CA                            "..ck me gently with a chainsaw"
From: jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: creation of eunet.aviation
Date: 13 Apr 1992 23:55:06 GMT
Organization: UT Health Science Center Houston

In article <1992Apr13.215917.21733@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> frye@cerl.uiuc.edu (G. David Frye) writes:
>I believe that a newsgroup of this magnitude requires frequent reminders to
>its participants to KEEP THE DISCUSSION ON TRACK.

So far, so good.

>A thread which begins as a
>specific question about application of a US FAR is not enhanced by telling the
>requester how it's done in some other country XYZ.

Here's where we part company. Not only am I interested in how it's done in
XYZ, but that may actually have relevance in the US, especially if the reason
it's different is because of the different environments in the two or because
the other country is following the ICAO rules and the US isn't.

>I think the idea of "neti-
>quette" works in both directions -- it's important to build an international
>community of aviation enthusiasts, and this newsgroup is a crucial tool, but
>rec.aviation is also a specific source of specific information to individuals
>who come here to ask specific questions to which they seek specific answers.
>Sometimes, in my darker moments, I wonder if our non-American posters lose
>sight of that need out of a desire to "be a part of it all."

I don't think that someone who's looking for specific information is hindered
by postings that aren't directly relevant to their question; I might suggest
that a new thread is warranted (by nuking the References: line and/or changing
the Subject: line), but that's the extent of it. Besides, is it really fair of
us in the US to flood the rest of the world with US-specific postings and get
unhappy when they post other-country specific info?
-- 
Jay Maynard, EMT-P, K5ZC, PP-ASEL | Never ascribe to malice that which can
jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu      | adequately be explained by a .sig virus.
         "Grow up children. Purchase lives." -- Geoff Collyer
Xref: sparky news.groups:10336 rec.arts.sf.movies:3314
From: fuzzy@athena.mit.edu (Pinkdex - TNG)
Newsgroups: news.groups,rec.arts.sf.movies
Subject: Re: New Mutants: Kid Dynamo Chapter 1
Summary: General Apologies
Keywords: craven, abject, embarrassment
Date: 15 Apr 92 12:20:04 GMT
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology

Many, many apologies to the readers of the above referenced groups.
I've only used this newsreader for about three years and have never made
such a mistake... I thought I was sending a clean new message, not
something that sucked a newsgroups: line from a previous message.

The previous message I sent would have annoyed ME if I had seen it
posted to either news.groups or rec.arts.sf.movies; it is entirely
inappropriate!!!

Apologies, again. This was not intended to be some sneaky way to get
people to read a story they wouldn't be interested in. Aaaaargh.


--
**(Connie Hirsch  still: fuzzy@athena.mit.edu no longer: chirsch@lotus.com)**
        Oh life is a glorious cycle of song/ A medley of extemporanea       
   And love is a thing that can never go wrong/ And I am Marie of Roumania.    
						-Dorothy Parker
From: worlds@dogstar.Colorado.edu (Mud Admin)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD:  rec.games.mud.{tiny,diku,announce}
Date: 17 Apr 92 02:20:33 GMT
Article-I.D.: colorado.1992Apr17.022033.9382
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder

rsnyder@fergie.dnet.ge.com (Bob Snyder) writes:
>rec.games.mud.announce (moderated)
>rec.games.mud.social -for discussion of social aspects of all muds
>rec.games.mud.lp -already exists
>rec.games.mud.tiny
>rec.games.mud.diku
>rec.games.mud.misc -for general discussion not appropriate to any one group
>rmgroup rec.games.mud
>Comments?

I'm in support of the above.

>rec.games.mud.adventure -for discussion of adventuring aspects of all muds

I don't really think this is a good classification for a group.  It would
get a lot of crossposting with the lp and diku group, and probably with
the misc group as well, and I don't see that it is needed in the first
place.

>rec.games.mud.admin -for discussion on admistering a mud

I think this sounds like a great idea, but I'm not sure if there is
the traffic to support it.  I agree that we should be talking about
these things, but we don't seem to be.  Whether or not a separate
group would spur the admins of various muds along or not is a good
question, but I'm not sure that it justifies creating a group.
If it comes to a vote, though, I would probably support it :).

Sulam
-- 
| This article is the individual opinion of a TMI Admin.
| The Mud Institute: dogstar.colorado.edu (128.138.248.32) 5555
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| TMI serves as an information and development center for LPmuds.