HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: bennett@deepthought.unm.edu (Paul Bennett)
Subject: physical vs nonphysical
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 92 22:28:16 GMT
Organization: Dept. of Math & Stat, University of New Mexico, Albuquerque
Distribution: alt.consciousness

       In the recent discussion bearing the title RE: Views of Consciousness,
it is clear to me that there are several differing ways that various people`
are thinking about this discusssion. To see this interaction is extremely
interesting. When I used the terms physical vs nonphysical originally, i
had in mind an immediate personal view of reality, not a social one. 
       That is, the interaction of individual with objects of the senses,
but also dreams, beliefs, things like that. I do not consider dreams, etc.,
as vehicles to explore other realms of consciousness. For my point is
this: when I am in dreams, I cannot ususally tell the difference between
dream reality and ordinary reality. Thus, my consciousness is not
apparently different when I dream. It is for this reason that I consider
these things to be all in one realm of consciousness (begging the question
of what consciousness really is... we haven't answered that one yet... ;)).
       There does seem to be a social conciousness. But if you look carefully,
it seems that this is rooted in a tacit agreement that we will all understand
that there is such a thing, and follow its apparent rules of behaviour,
religions, etc. blah blah. There may in fact be no such thing, or rather,
that this thing is all in our heads so to speak, and merely an illusion.
(I don't really know for sure. When I understand the illusion, I suspect that
I will, but at that point, why talk about it, as it supposedly will be clear..
;).)

       One problem here is that "physical" and "nonphysical" are not well
defined words. Moreover, we each have differing ideas regarding their
apparent meanings. Curious, no?

       In closing, please keep up the discussion, RE: views of Consciousness.

       
* Paul Bennett                   There is always a greater truth.
* bennett@gauss.unm.edu          "Live now. Death is inevitable."-Anonymous
* These are my own opinions, and not those of dept.
Newsgroups: alt.consciousness
From: mcgrath@cs.uiuc.edu (Robert McGrath)
Subject: Re: Satisfaction
Reply-To: mcgrath@cs.uiuc.edu
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept of Computer Science
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 22:56:13 GMT

In article <1992Nov23.114635.10400@muppet.bt.co.uk>, ianr@muppet.bt.co.uk (Ian Robertson DND3) writes:
|> 
|> 	Please help / advise. I am finding little in my life that gives 
|> satisfaction. I [...] I [...] I [...] feelings of others [... I] am 
|> [...]I [...]but [I] am [...] My [...] I [...] I [...] my 
|> Love and light have been replaced by the soft dark void. Its all very 
|> well saying get out meet people - I 've tried , 
|> [...]I [...] I [...] many worse off than myself, [...] I [...] my 
|> [...] dosent help [me] either. I [...] I [...] I [...] I [...] 
|> What to do who to trust ? I [...] I [...]
[...]
|> 	In fear of Madness
|> 		Ian

What in the world dos this have to do with alt.consciousness?

You want some serious advice?  Try thinking about something other
than 'I'.  Can you say three sentences in a row without using the
words 'I', 'me' or 'my'?

Another word of advice.  Don't accept advice from USENET news
groups.  Thats the stupidest thing I ever heard of.

-- 
  Robert E. McGrath
  Urbana Illinois
  mcgrath@cs.uiuc.edu
Newsgroups: alt.consciousness
Subject: Re: views on consciousness
From: Stafford@Vax2.Winona.MSUS.EDU (John Stafford)
Date: 23 Nov 92 10:13:47 -0600
Followup-To: alt.consciousness
Distribution: world
Organization: MSUS

In article <1992Nov19.175306.29289@m.cs.uiuc.edu>, mcgrath@cs.uiuc.edu
(Robert McGrath) wrote:
> 
> So how about this suggestion -- human perception and inference are
> well known to be limited, biased, and prone to errors of many types.
> Many normal cognitive/perceptual 'heuristics' may, in some situations, 
> 'yield' apparently impossible events.  In addition, emotionally laden
> beliefs, such as specific religious beliefs, will color and influence
> the interpretation of such 'impossible' events as may be experienced.
> 
> Perhaps "meta-physical" events are cognitive illusions, and
> exist only in the "folk physics" each of us uses as an everyday
> model of the world we operate in.

'Intuition' seems to fall into this catagory of 'meta-physical'
events.  Would you agree that intuition has often inspired and
lead efforts to verify the tentative belief to yield acceptable
(even hard) scientific assertions?  Many scientists and others
who work in the hard-logic areas will admit to being driven by
intuition.  

What this may indicate is that we have access to knowledge of the
workings of the universe which we are not yet sophisticated enough to
know directly -- that consciousness is at point in our evolution
an animal sense of a 'relationship' with the universe which is
sensed but unknowable.

john stafford
Newsgroups: alt.consciousness
From: hughg@brutus.ee.su.oz.au (Hugh Garsden)
Subject: Re: I like consciousness
Organization: University of Sydney, EE Dept.
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1992 00:38:08 GMT

In article <kf45PTu00WB80IYGcD@andrew.cmu.edu>, lord+@andrew.cmu.edu (Tom Lord) writes:
...
|> Explanations like this bother me a little, because they rely on terms
|> that are a bit vague or misleading.  If we could truly suspend all of
|> the effects of our previous training -- turn off all our mental models
|> of the world, then we would be like infants

This assumption has been discussed in transpersonal psychology and is called
the pre/trans fallacy. Very simply, it goes like this -

Suppose we have 3 objects, A, B, and C.  We then claim the following: A is not
B, C is not B, so A and C must be the same. Obviously this is incorrect.

The definitive discussion is in a paper called "The Pre/Trans Fallacy", by Ken
Wilber, Journal of Humanistic Psychology, 1982. The title comes from the way
pre-personal, pre-egoic, infantile states are often confused with
trans-personal, trans-egoic, superconscious states. Some people (eg. some
materialists) think that everything claimed to be superconscious is really
infantile, whereas others (eg. some New Agers) think that everything which is
infantile is really superconscious. In both cases it is because they decide
that all things which are not mental and egoic must be "one thing", like
saying that if I'm not in Sydney then I must be in London.

-- 
Hugh Garsden
University of Sydney
hughg@ee.su.oz.au
From: farris@ruhets.rutgers.edu (Lorenzo Farris)
Newsgroups: alt.consciousness
Subject: Re: Meditation and Software Development
Date: 16 Nov 92 02:12:36 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

In article <1992Nov13.170823.23433@gtech.com>, trp@gtech.com (Tom R. Peterson (consultant)) writes:
:Has anyone given much thought to the relationship between meditation
:and focused creative processes like software development:
: - Why would it be foolish to consider such activities to be
:   a substititution for meditation?
: - Should a person meditate more when a burst of such things are
:   being done, or less, or is there a relationship?
: - Suzuki (Zen Mind, Beginners Mind) suggested that Westerners will
:   need to find thier own way.  Is the relationship between 
:   conciousness exercises and focused work activity a primary issue, 
:   or is it a trap to even make this association between meditation
:   and the goal of improved productivity & creativity?
:I don't know much about all this, but have pondered the balance a bit...

As a matter of fact, I was once told that software development is an
excellent career for a meditator. Apparently, certain kinds of
software development, especially relational databases and artificial
intelligence, train the mind in the same way as the detailed
visualizations Tibetan monks perform. Also, developing software is one
of those tasks which it is easy to lose oneself in, good for the be-
here-now bit, and keeps the mind sharp. 

Sitting meditation and daily work are supposed to go hand in hand, one
enhancing the other as a meditation.

I can't back any of this up, I just throw it out for your
consideration. :-).
			Lorenzo
-- 
"Once upon a time men were possessed    ******************************
by devils. Now they are not less        *  Lorenzo Farris            *
obsessed by ideas" -CG Jung             *  farris@ruhets.rutgers.edu *
					******************************
Newsgroups: alt.consciousness
From: robg@citr.uq.oz.au (Rob Geraghty)
Subject: Re: views on consciousness
Organization: Prentice Centre, University of Queensland
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 03:32:23 GMT

serb@polisci.umn.edu (Scott Erb) writes:

>The discussion about physical vs. non-physical is interesting, but perhaps 
>we simply make the discussion based on our sensory abilities.  If we can see 
>or feel something, it's physical.  Or, to move on a bit, if our instruments 
>can measure it, it's physical.  What is beyond our senses (which capture 
>only a small band of energy anyway) or our instruments (which are improving, 
>but in a way limited by our present knowledge) is called non-physical, or 
>meta-physical or whatever.

So how about this suggestion - many (maybe not *all*) phenomena now
claimed to be meta-physical are *real* but not explicable with current
technology and theory.  What would people have thought 200 years ago if
you showed them a laptop PC? ("What? An IBM?" ;-P)  How about what Clarke
said - "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from
magic" - perhaps "meta-physical" events are simply events that our
technology is not sufficiently advanced to explain.
(to look at Clarke's assertion another way...)

Rob

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rob Geraghty               | 3 things are important to me 
robg@durian.citr.oz.au     | The gift of love, the joy of life
CITR                       | And the making of music in all its forms
From: Stafford@Vax2.Winona.MSUS.EDU (John Stafford)
Newsgroups: alt.consciousness
Subject: Re: I like Zen (was Re: I like consciousness)
Date: 23 Nov 92 19:06:09 GMT
 edu> <kf45PTu00WB80IYGcD@andrew.cmu.edu> <Nov.23.11.58.02.1992.22974@ruhets.rutgers.edu>
Followup-To: alt.consciousness
Organization: MSUS

In article <Nov.23.11.58.02.1992.22974@ruhets.rutgers.edu>,
farris@ruhets.rutgers.edu (Lorenzo Farris) wrote:
> 
> In article <kf45PTu00WB80IYGcD@andrew.cmu.edu>, lord+@andrew.cmu.edu (Tom Lord) writes:
> 
[...]
> 
> :Personally, i've taken the message of zen to be this: all of our
> :scripts, models, and stock behaviors are there in our brains.  They
> :are not the product of will that brings them to bear -- they are
> :well-worn paths through the statespace of brainstates -- they are
> :potential wells.  The nice thing about these paths, and our brains in
> :general, is that they are self-optimizing.  
> 
> I disagree with this statement. Based on my observations of my self
> and many other people, they are pretty random in whether they improve
> or not. 

True!  A fellow I knew 20 years ago studied Zen for years until he felt
he had gone to the center, achieved Satori.  He went on a trek to visit
his mentor to ask a great question.  After all those years and the trek
he met his mentor and asked "Can one have achieved satori and still be
an asshole."  The response was a smiling nod.

(This guy is the president of a large computing company now.  In fact,
one of you may work for him.  True story.)
From: mcgrath@cs.uiuc.edu (Robert McGrath)
Subject: Re: views on consciousness
Reply-To: mcgrath@cs.uiuc.edu
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept of Computer Science
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 21:08:58 GMT

In article <Stafford-231192100136@stafford.winona.msus.edu>, Stafford@Vax2.Winona.MSUS.EDU (John Stafford) writes in part:
|> 
|> 'Intuition' seems to fall into this catagory of 'meta-physical'
|> events.  Would you agree that intuition has often inspired and
|> lead efforts to verify the tentative belief to yield acceptable
|> (even hard) scientific assertions?  Many scientists and others
|> who work in the hard-logic areas will admit to being driven by
|> intuition.  

Yes, creative people are often inspired by 'intuition', which
are ideas that one has no clear idea where they come from.

|> What this may indicate is that we have access to knowledge of the
|> workings of the universe which we are not yet sophisticated enough to
|> know directly -- that consciousness is at point in our evolution
|> an animal sense of a 'relationship' with the universe which is
|> sensed but unknowable.

Hardly. Much of mental activity is 'unconscious'.  There is nothing
inherently 'meta-physical' about becoming aware of ideas or images
that you can't exactly account for, as you are not normally aware
of much of your own mental activity.  

It seems that sometimes people can draw conclusions or create ideas 
without being aware of the process.  This is hardly a startling 
discovery, psychologists have been aware of this for over a century.

Attributing this to "workings of the universe which we are not
yet sophisticated enough to know directly" shows a definite lack
of knowledge of how human mental activity actually works.  Perhaps
you should learn something about how ordinary humans work before
you speculate about things you suppose to be human abilities.

-- 
  Robert E. McGrath
  Urbana Illinois
  mcgrath@cs.uiuc.edu
Organization: Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
From: ycheung@uhunix.uhcc.Hawaii.Edu (Yat Lok L. Cheung)
Subject: What are the differences between Toshiba XM-3201B & XM-3301B?
Organization: University of Hawaii
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 22:45:26 GMT


subject says it all...  I would appreciate your input.  

Thanks in advance,

<Lawrence>...
ycheung@uhunix.uhcc.hawaii.edu

Newsgroups: alt.cd-rom
From: buck@ra.nrl.navy.mil (Loren Buchanan)
Subject: Kodak Marketing
Followup-To: alt.cd-rom
Summary: General comments
Keywords: Kodak
Organization: Naval Research Lab, Washington, DC
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 21:35:32 GMT

I just got a packet of stuff from Kodak in response to my phone call to 
them a few weeks ago.  In it was stuff on Photo CD Access Developers
Toolkit, PhotoEdge Software, Renaissance Design Software, Volume 1 Issue
2 of Kodak's Desktop Developer News, and then a whole bunch of stuff on
their Writable CD.

I found it interesting that Kodak gives no credit to any other company
(particularly Philips).  The spec sheet for the PCD Writer 200 is real
similar to the spec sheet for the Philips CDD-521 (specs are identical,
advertising copy has been somewhat rewritten).  The photo of the drive
has the Photo CD logo, but nowhere do they mention that it can write
Photo CD disks.

Included in the package was last years press release about MCI using
this technology to deliver phone bills to its large customers.  The
reason MCI even thought about using write once CDs is from earlier Kodak
annoucements about PhotoCD.  When will I be able to buy the software to
do meet my needs, probably by this time next year!  

I can't blame Kodak for going slow in getting all of these various parts
out to market becuase I fully believe that Kodak is betting its entire
future on digital imaging, and they can't afford to make mistakes.  So
have every confidence that when I actually get a Pro Photo CD and Photo
CD Portfolio it will work correctly, but I find the wait irritating.  I
also hope I don't have to buy the PRO PIW 4200 (I don't need the scanner,
and I already have a Sun workstation).  I guess my only hope of getting 
stuff earlier, is if I can become a beta tester.

I am glad I am not in marketing, and I am also glad that I am not involved
in product development (otherwise I wouldn't be able to complain).

B Cing U

Buck

-- 
Loren Buchanan (buck@curie.nrl.navy.mil) | #include <standard.disclaimer>
NRL Code 5842, 4555 Overlook Ave.        | #include <computer.graphics>
Washington, DC 20375      (202) 767-3884 | #include <electronic.music>
Phone tag, America's fastest growing business sport.
From: grtorlba@sumax.seattleu.edu (George Torralba)
Newsgroups: alt.cd-rom,bit.listserv.cdrom-l
Subject: Daisy-chain(able) CD-ROMs: Which ones?
Date: 16 Nov 92 01:06:02 GMT
Organization: Seattle University

Are there CD-ROM drives, other than those using SCSI, that can be
daisy-chained?  Of course, I'm only considering those drives that are less
expensive than the SCSI drives.  Also, I'm almost set on getting the
Sony CDR-535 but am concerned about the small (8K?) buffer.  Should this
concern me?  This would be my first CD-ROM drive and as such, I would like
to be able to use it for a variety of applications (i.e., some multimedia,
photo-CD, and as a BBS drive) so I can whet my knowledge on CD-ROM
applications/uses.  Any input would be helpful. 


George

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Email  : grtorlba@sumax.seattleu.edu
  Phone  : (206) 781-7622 (with voice mail)
  USMail : George R. Torralba, 8728 Phinney Ave. N. #8,  Seattle, WA  98103
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroups: alt.cd-rom
From: kemp@convex.com (Phil Kemp)
Subject: How to use Panasonic CD-ROM on mac??
Summary: Looking for drivers for panasonic cd on mac
Keywords: cd rom mac panasonic matsushita
Organization: CONVEX Computer Corporation, Richardson, Tx., USA
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 16:56:21 GMT
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

I would like to be able to use my Panasonic CD-ROM from my peecee on
my mac at work. I've hooked it up and scsi probe finds it.. I've tried
the apple cd drivers but they don't see the drive.

Where can I get drivers for md cd-rom?

Any help is appreciated.
PK

--
Phil Kemp			Voice:(214)-497-4671
CONVEX Computer Corporation
Richardson, Texas		Internet:kemp@convex.com
From: daniel.campbell@cccbbs.UUCP (Daniel Campbell) 
Newsgroups: alt.cd-rom
Subject: Is There a Sound Card wit
Date: 21 Nov 92 01:48:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Cincinnati Computer Connection BBS - Cincinnati, OH - 513-752-8248
Reply-To: daniel.campbell@cccbbs.UUCP (Daniel Campbell) 


SB>Does this card exist?
SB>
Sound Blaster makes such a card..has a MIDI output/input...has a CD-ROM 
connection. Call EGGHEAD software...800-EGG-HEAD. They have the whole 
Multi Media package Sound Card and CDROM Drive for $399. Includes MS
Bookshelf for Windows 3.1.                    

--- WinQwk 1.30 #177
                                                                        
Newsgroups: alt.cd-rom
From: ncpmont@angelo.amd.com (Mark Montgomery)
Subject: Re: Toshiba XM-3301TA specs?
Organization: Advanced Micro Devices, Santa Clara, CA
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 16:15:12 GMT

In article <BxxK30.4w9@darkside.osrhe.uoknor.edu> wee@darkside.osrhe.uoknor.edu (Operator) writes:
>Could some kind soul please post some specs for the 
>Toshiba XM-3301TA CD Rom.  Thanks.
>
>
>-- 
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Huy Nguyen                        | "It's not nearly enough to survive,
>wee@darkside.uoknor.edu           |  But to live." - M.M.
>-

I'm not 100% sure what you want as I think 'XM-3301TA' is a bios title
instead of a model but if you are interested in the XM-3301B (internal),
TXM-3301E (external), TXM-3301P (portable) drives the specs are:
- Capacity, mode 1	=	599 Meg
- Capacity, mode 2	=	683 Meg
- User data block,mode1	=	2048 byte
- User data block,mode2	=	2336 byte
- Data rate, sustained	=	150 Kb/S
- Data rate, burst	=	1500 Kb/S
- Access time, average	=	325 ms
- Access time, maximum	=	480 ms
- Interface		=	SCSI 2
			Regards,  Mark
---
Mark Montgomery - Networks R' Us		| Disclaimer : Yes, it's mine!
Advanced Micro Devices, Networks Products Div.	|______________________________
P.O.Box 3453, Mailstop 45			(408) 987-2368
Sunnyvale, CA. 94088				(mark.montgomery@amd.com)
Newsgroups: alt.cd-rom
Subject: CD-SPEEDWAY
From: bruce.drake@pcb.batpad.lgb.ca.us (Bruce Drake) 
Date: 18 Nov 92 14:56:00 GMT
Reply-To: bruce.drake@pcb.batpad.lgb.ca.us (Bruce Drake) 
Distribution: world
Organization: The Batchelor Pad PCBoard ~ Long Beach, CA ~ +1 310 494 8084

To: ebascosv@CLASS.ORG

For Amy Van Brunt

Dear Amy,

ES>Does anyone have any experience with this or other programs designed 
ES>to increase the speed of cd-rom drives?  My single drive hitachis and
ES>a 6 drive Pioneer could sure use a little speed.

Yes, we have been using it on a single drive system that is essentially a 
CD-ROM server on our network, though it is also a workstation.  We find 
that it does work well, however, like most cache software it is relatively 
dumb and only works on a least recently used algorithm and doesn't keep 
stats on repetitive access, which is really what you would want for a 
database or directory, for example. But the price we paid was reasonable 
and the overhead in disk space is reasonable too, so we are sticking with 
it.

If you are unclear on how it works, drop me a line and I'll be happy to 
give you more info.

Bruce

bruce.drake@pcb.batpad.lgb.ca.us



---
 . WinQwk 2.0b#0 . Unregistered Evaluation Copy
                                                            
Newsgroups: alt.cd-rom
From: sb380@city.ac.uk (HOLT A D)
Subject: Re: USENET Thought Police [was Re: CD ROM INC. CATALOG REQUESTS!]
Organization: The City University
Date: 18 Nov 92 16:05:42 GMT

jbg@sdc.boeing.com (James Glidewell) writes:

>In article <1992Nov13.015047.7517@Bang.UUCP>, bam@Bang.UUCP (Bret A. Marquis) writes:
>|> In this case, some tiny Colorado vendor posts a planetwide advertisement
>                      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>|> for their products.
>|> 
>|> Bret Marquis (on the net since '81)
>|> crash!bang!bam

>Well, I don't know about their volume, but CD-ROM, Inc. has the largest selection
>of CD-ROM titles I have seen from ANY vendor. Their catalog is a real resource,
>even if you don't choose to buy anything from them.

>Upon reading the CD-ROM Inc posting, it was immediately obvious to ME that they
>did not have the slightest idea that they were not supposed to post commercial
>postings here. And that they were flame-bait for sure.

>So it seems to me that a call for hate email was not only rude, but completely unnecessary.

>-- 
>Jim Glidewell
>jbg@sdc.boeing.com or jbg%sdc@atc.boeing.com
>I do NOT speak for the Boeing Company.

My complaint is much simpler, I haven't received the catalog that I asked for!
(or is it delayed in trans-atlantic mail?)

Andy

Andy Holt // City University // London EC1V 0HB // UK
From: daniel.campbell@cccbbs.UUCP (Daniel Campbell) 
Newsgroups: alt.cd-rom
Subject: Multi-media Kits (IBM)
Date: 21 Nov 92 01:56:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Cincinnati Computer Connection BBS - Cincinnati, OH - 513-752-8248
Reply-To: daniel.campbell@cccbbs.UUCP (Daniel Campbell) 

    So what I am looking for is suggestions as to CDROM/Soundcard pack
MC>I am looking at the Creative Labs Multimedia upgrade.  Does anyone hav
MC>specs/prices on this? 
  
Mike, Check out Creative Labs Multi Media Kit...Call 800 EGG-HEAD 
software...Kit includes Sound Blaster Pro Card, CD-ROM drive, and MS 
Bookshelf for Windows...$399.                 

--- WinQwk 1.30 #177
From: 00arcarmicha@leo.bsuvc.bsu.edu
Newsgroups: alt.cd-rom
Subject: GENESIS
Date: 17 Nov 92 17:59:57 GMT
Organization: Ball State University, Muncie, In - Univ. Computing Svc's



  HAS ANYONE HEARD ABOUT THE NEW GENESIS GAME?

  IT IS APPARANTLY GOING TO USE THE CD ROM TO CREATE 
  
  MORE IN DEBT AND ACTION PROGRAMS.  SOUNDS COOL TO ME
Newsgroups: alt.cd-rom