HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: cranmer@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: The Middle Pillar ritual, help needed
Date: 29 Jul 92 15:30:11 EDT

 Hello,

 I hate to nitpick, and I'm sorry to pick on poor B.A., but...

>One other caveat: while there are some folk, for example Crowley, who say
>that these Hebrew letters, names, and other correspondences are part of the
>inherent nature of the universe, .......

I actually think that Crowley thought just the opposite.  I don't have my
copy of _Magick_in_Theory_and_Practice_ handy, but didn't he mention somewhere
therein something to the effect of:

{paraphrase on}
I recall one acquaintance telling me (one who should have known better)
that the universe is 'built' according to the Kaballah.  This is the worst
type of misunderstanding.
{paraphrase off}

Or something to that effect.  Didn't he say something similar at the start
of Liber O : These are just concepts!  We're not going to say anything about
their actual physical existence or not.

On a semi-related note, I have a question about the version of the Middle
Pillar ritual B.A. posted.  Does anyone know where the god-name for Daath
came from?  It's not supposed to have any correspondences as such, right?

						- Steve Cranmer
From: ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe)
Subject: Re: Goal of Magick
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 14:27:13 GMT

(David Tomlinson) writes:

>I have been working on (in my head) an idea about the 
>goals of metaphysical techniques around the world, and it 
>would seem to me that the first goal of all 'Magickal
>Systems' is to stop the internal dialogue ie. your thoughts, 
>and the second is to obtain control over your dreams.

>Is this making it too simple?

Yes, this is too simple.  There is no simple generalisation which applies to
all magical systems.  The book, _Good Magic_, which is a complete system of
Spellcraft in the Naturalist Realm of magic, has nothing in it about stopping
the internal dialogue or controlling dreams.  (It is also the only *single book*
which I have found which completely explains any one system of magic, such that
someone with no prior experience can read it and use it without *ever* needing
another source for an entire life's magical work.  It is not a style of magic I
happen to practice, but I respect the author's work greatly.)

It sounds like your description best fits what I call Sorcery, which is a
Mentalist category.  (Gods, I really ought to get that essay on taxonomy done!)

              Merry meet, merry part, merry meet again,
                               Br'anArthur

Queer, Peculiar, and Wyrd! :-)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: lever@voyager.corp.sgi.com (Karen Lever)
Subject: Free Classes in Tantric Meditation
Followup-To: poster
Originator: root@voyager.corp.sgi.com
Keywords: consciousness, meditation, Enlightenment
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc.
Distribution: ba
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 08:37:57 GMT

Free intensive workshops will be offered in the Bay Area:

Stanford University                       U.C. Berkeley
    Thursday, July 30                         Monday, August 3
    Thursday, August 6                        


Topics include: Meditation, Buddhism, Power, Balance, Wisdom,
Enlightenment, Personal Happiness, Reincarnation, Career Success
and Miracles.  Classes consist of discussion and meditation, 
and are designed for individuals age 29 and under. 

Stanford classes will be held in the Escondido Village Center 
(next to the E.V. office), from 7:30 to 9:30 p.m.

U.C. Berkeley classes will be held in Wheeler Hall, Room 223,
from 7:30 to 9:30 p.m.

Additional classes will be offered in the Bay Area this summer
and fall.  For information, please call 415-995-4721.
From: u9038752@cc.uow.edu.au (roger bolton)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: The Middle Pillar ritual, help needed
Date: 28 Jul 92 03:10:47 GMT
Organization: University Of Wollongong

Thanks to those who emailed me.  The middle pillar ritual was described
as an essential warm up exercise for Hyatt's version of western tantra.
The whole book is a combination of crowley/golden dawn magick, kabbala
tarot and tantra.
I may be able to get hold of those books others mentioned, they are
usually availible, but cost lots of $$$ as theyv'e all been imported.
If it wasn't too much trouble and someone could email or post a
instructions for  the ritual (I don't know how long it is, not too long
I hope), that would be a vast help.
If its too long, I'll go find it somewhere.
thanks either way
eldritch
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: erc@unislc.uucp (Ed Carp)
Subject: Re: Kali-Ma (was: Re: The REAL art of Tarot)
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4
Organization: Unisys Corporation SLC
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 17:14:49 GMT

aaronk@county.lmt.mn.org (Aaron Kurland) writes:

: born 3 months[!!!!] premature).  She has the strength and will of many.  If 
: she had been an boy she almost certainly would have died.

Why is that?
-- 
Ed Carp, N7EKG		erc@apple.com	<-- preferred email address!
"In wildness is the preservation of the world."  - Henry David Thoreau
** Member, Linux port team - uucp division ** :)   801/269-8125
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: eshin@ddsw1.mcs.com (Eshin-Fun)
Subject: Re: Possible to Obtain magic powers>?
Organization: ddsw1.MCS.COM Contributor, Chicago IL
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL3
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 09:35:22 GMT
X-Disclaimer:  Material posted in this article is the sole responsibility of
                the poster and does not represent MCSNet or the system owners.

>>jds2@po.CWRU.Edu (John D. Specht) writes:

: I have a household pet, a black cat named snowball, who is certainly not my 
: master. We have a simple relationship: I provide some of his food, and he
: gets information for me.


Then why post? Ask your cat.


: >: That is what I have learned from Zen.<<

: Sounds like L.Ron Hubbard's "The sole drive of the individual human is to
: reproduce." I didn't agree with him, either. I will not counter the storm's 
: effort to spend itself, only the direction and timing.


Then either go back to (since you speak in past tense) or stay with Zen.


Remember, that before one can write on a blackboard covered with chalk
marking, one has to erase what is on its surface first.


: I think I would find being all-powerful INTENSLEY boring. That's probably one
: of the few reasons I'm not. The only limitation of the individual are the ones
: he/she chooses. (Richard Bach, _Illusions_) As for the part about "what
: to really do to begin with" um, I would leave that decision to the individual,
: as you cannot force your choices into another's skull without something on
: the order of a crowbar or baseball bat.


You flatter yourself! What makes you presume that you are so capable to make
that choice?



: > My power is only limited by my limitations,.........
: >: 
: >: 
: >: The greatest gift is self.<<


Narcissus though so too. But he got lost in the imagery of "his" own
reflection, whilst Echo helplessly stood by.

Perhaps I may bore you with these metaphors. Fine, but though it is in
"self" that may be the answer; CONCEIT is its downfall.

: >
: I have no integrity in the social sense of the term. I would as easily kill 
: a lady as kiss her, depending on the necessary behavior. (What _I_ decide is
: necessary.) And I have no appreciation for that which does not benefit me 


Did you learn this from Zen too?



: I will offer information, I cannot guarantee how it will be interpreted, or
: used. Every individual's perceptions are tainted by every previous 
: perception, and making the individual aware of this is a great first step
: in enlightenment.

Ahh! we are back to the blackboard full of scribble.


: I was (I thought) incarnated to help others, enjoy life, and occaisionaly 
: consume excessive quantities of alcohol.


Ahh! we are back to Ron Hubbard!


: I can't guess, having never been there.
: >
: Excuse me if I'm getting a little silly, I was trying to lighten this 
: dreary mess up a bit.
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^

Why ask a question when you already have foregone its conclusion?


Stay with your cat. He has better questions...


Eshin-Fun

: 
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe)
Subject: Re: The Middle Pillar ritual, help needed
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 22:24:57 GMT

cranmer@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu writes:

> Hello,

> I hate to nitpick, and I'm sorry to pick on poor B.A., but...

>>One other caveat: while there are some folk, for example Crowley, who say
>>that these Hebrew letters, names, and other correspondences are part of the
>>inherent nature of the universe, .......

>I actually think that Crowley thought just the opposite.  I don't have my
>copy of _Magick_in_Theory_and_Practice_ handy, but didn't he mention somewhere
>therein something to the effect of:

>{paraphrase on}
>I recall one acquaintance telling me (one who should have known better)
>that the universe is 'built' according to the Kaballah.  This is the worst
>type of misunderstanding.
>{paraphrase off}

>Or something to that effect.  Didn't he say something similar at the start
>of Liber O : These are just concepts!  We're not going to say anything about
>their actual physical existence or not.

Well, p. 8 of _Magick_ includes:
"Now there is a traditional correspondence, which modern experiment has shown
to be fairly reliable.  There is a *certain natural connexion* between certain
letters, words, numbers, gestures, shapes, perfumes, and so on..."  [emphasis
mine]
p. 9:
"Now the conceptions of Magick are themselves profoundly mathematical.  The
whole basis of our theory is the Qabalah, which corresponds to mathematics and
geometry.  The method of operation in Magic is based on this, very much the 
same way as the laws of mechanics are based on mathematics."
p. 375:
"It is immaterial whether they [the Sephiroth, etc.] exist or not.  By doing
certain things certain results follow..."
It is obvious from the last quote (I obtained the quotes by opening the book 
at random) taht Crowley doesn't claim that they are necessarily real, so my 
phrasing is off, but he does claim that the corresponces work no matter what.
So, in Crowley's opinion, the Kabbalah is not necessarily real, but it is
automatic.  IMO, it only works if you already are programmed with it.  I hope
this clarifies my intention.

>On a semi-related note, I have a question about the version of the Middle
>Pillar ritual B.A. posted.  Does anyone know where the god-name for Daath
>came from?  It's not supposed to have any correspondences as such, right?

I was wondering about this myself...does anyone know?  Oh, and the color too...
it is the same as Yesod in this exercise.  That seems strange to me.

              Merry meet, merry part, merry meet again,
                               Br'anArthur

Queer, Peculiar, and Wyrd! :-)
From: dantonio@magick.tay2.dec.com (David D'Antonio)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: rosicrucians
Date: 28 Jul 92 16:15:55 GMT
Reply-To: dantonio@flashy.tay2.dec.com
Organization: None to speak of...


In article <13126.2a745caf@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu>, cranmer@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu writes:
|>Bill Nelson (billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com) writes:
|>
|>>winstel@kit.uni-kl.de (Rainer Winstel) writes:
|>>: Is there anybody who knows the Order of the Rosicrucians. The girl-friend of 
|>>: a friend is worshiper of this ancient group.  
|>>: I would be happy to get some informations.
|>>
|>>Ancient? I believe the earliest informtion is from around 1870? The Rosy
|>>Cross Order is certainly not ancient.
|>
|>  Although the actual extant groups (AMORC, Golden Dawn, etc.) were born
|> in the late 19th century, the concept of a Rosicrucian brotherhood goes
|> back much farther.
|>
|>  The document "Fama Fraternitatis" was published in 1614 in Cassel, and
|> there was, I belive a companion document called the "Confessio" (sp?)
|> published a year later or so.  These publications discussed the discovery
|> of the tomb of Christian Rosenkreutz (who supposedly lived in the late
|> 1300's - early 1400's), the founder of the order.

For what it's worth, there is a Time/Life book (part of the Mysteries
of the Unknown series) [yea, like that's WHY it's unknown, 'cause it's
a mystery :-] called _Secret Sects and Ancient Knowledge_ that
discusses the history of various and sundry sects including the Order
of the Rosy Cross and it's descendents/off shoots. While Time/Life
may not be the best source, this seemed pretty reasonable. BTW, there
was another book called _The Chemical Wedding of Christian
Rosenkreutz_ (modern spelling).

|>  On a pseudo-related note, I saw a book called (something like)
|> _Rosicrucian_Cosmo-Conception_ in an occult bookstore recently.  It
|> is a reprint of a book from the early 1900's, and described one version
|> of the rosicrucian philosophy.  I was turned off by this book for 2
|> reasons:  (1) Its heavy literalist-Christian doctrine, and (2) its
|> classification of "Aryan" peoples as one step above other races on the
|> evolutionary ladder!  I kid you not!   OBJECT LESSON:  be aware of what
|> "brand" of rosicrucianism you are getting into.  From my experience,
|> the Golden Dawn took some of the better ideas from the rosicrucians
|> and left the closed-mindedness at the door.

In general the "original" Rosicrucians had a very tolerant,
open-minded, classless attitude. Various groups got very upset at
this, notably the Roman Catholic Church and tried to stamp them out.
(the Rosicrucians as well as the beliefs :-) Later incarnations of the
Rosicrucians emphasised and changed some of these attitudes. In other
words, don't judge a philosophy by it's offshoots.

|>                                  Steve Cranmer

DDA

--
dantonio@magick.tay2.dec.com -or- dantonio@sword1.enet.dec.com
  I've tried to dance with what life had to hand me
    My partner's been pleasure, my partner's been pain
				-Stevie Nicks
From: J.W.Lockhart@massey.ac.nz (J.W. Lockhart)
Subject: Re: Angels
Keywords: angels
Organization: Massey University, Palmerston North, New Zealand
X-Reader: NETNEWS/PC Version 2c
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 92 21:33:07 GMT

Re The Angels query:

For a different perspective Billy Graham's book angels should be available in
any shop selling orthodox Christian literature. Please don't flame me and tell
me angels are not a Christian concept as I am simply adding to the list of
references. From a Christian perspective angels seem to keep in the 
background in the present day. I agree with the poster who mentioned that
they lack wings. Though they lack bodies they appear as though they have 
human bodies. I have friends who think they have met one though I haven't.

  John
Xref: sparky alt.magick:3497 alt.pagan:7302
From: gryphon@openage.openage.com (The Golden Gryphon)
Subject: Re: BLACK CROWS
Organization: Open Age, Inc.
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 17:11:48 GMT

cipher@lacerta.unm.edu (Rev. J. B. Bell) writes:

>In article <84093@netnews.upenn.edu> blewis@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Benn L. Lewis) writes:
>>
>>
>>        I could use the help of the internet for this one:
>>
>>        OK, i was on the phone with this female (who has a serious
>>boyfriend) and this crow flew up to my window and started
>>pecking on the screen-  DOES THIS MEAN I'M GONNA GET LUCKY????
>>
>>        is it a sign or something?
>>
>>blewis@eniac.seas

>I'm sorry to be the one to tell you this, but it definitely means that
>you are going to have your pecker (you see, the "pecking" of the crow,
>traditionally a bad omen) removed with a french-fry maker, probably by
>the "female's" boyfriend.

>                          With best wishes for your recovery,

>                          --Rev. J. B. Bell
>-- 
>"Before you shoot off your mouth, try placing your foot in it.  At least
>that way, you'll know _why_ you shot yourself in the foot."

>           --Lefty (lefty@apple.com)

You know I'm a little disappointed with the responses to this message.  Someone
else beleives they have a mystical experience, and you people all just make
fun of him.  I would honestly be interested to know what typical signicance
is attached to large black birds.  Mystically speaking. 

I hear a lot of people in the pagan/mystic community bemoaning the fact that
everyone hates them, and how misunderstood they are.  Well look at the kinds
of replies you are giving out.  People don't have to accept you for what you
are!  People can easily reject you and call you murderers and rapists.  If you
want to be understood you need to educate the mind blind masses.

I'm expecting lots of FUN (NOT!) messages from people.  I will not get into
a flame war.  I will discuss this seriously.  I'll even have a heated
discussion with you if you disagree.  Public or Private.  Email or News.

-- 
The Golden Gryphon 				gryphon@openage.COM
Solve a man's problem and he has 1 less.        No incumbents in 92.
Teach a man to think, and all his problems are less.
Openage - The Premier SCO UNIX integrator in the Washington D.C. area
From: mascdb@gdr.bath.ac.uk (C D Burdorf)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: The Middle Pillar ritual, help needed
Date: 30 Jul 92 16:46:18 GMT
Organization: University of Bath, England


>
>On a semi-related note, I have a question about the version of the Middle
>Pillar ritual B.A. posted.  Does anyone know where the god-name for Daath
>came from?  It's not supposed to have any correspondences as such, right?
>

Darth Vader
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: erc@unislc.uucp (Ed Carp)
Subject: Re: Possible to Obtain magic powers>?
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4
Organization: Unisys Corporation SLC
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 01:22:21 GMT

jds2@po.CWRU.Edu (John D. Specht) writes:

: I can't reason based on what I don't know, or don't believe in, so I don't
: try to. Most of the 'ways' I have seen for getting at 'past life' or 
: 'higher consciousness' are about 10% inspiration, 90% imagination. I know
: there are some serious practitioners out there, but they're not the ones
: getting press and TV.

There are several pracitioners around that have done impressive things.  In
my experience, reasoning doesn't always lead to belief, or vice versa.
If there is just one valid experience, would that be enough?

: >: How did you discover these rules? Again I would argue that what you have found
: >: to be your truth may be not so true for those not sharing all of your
: >: previous experiences.
: >
: >It is one of several common themes running through (1) NDEs, (2) regressive
: >hypnosis sessions, and (3) most ancient religious texts.
: 
: 1) What's an NDE? 2) Regressive hypnosis, see 10%/90% comment above. 3) Ancient 

NDE = Near Death Experience.

: religious texts: so If I write a book that's good enough to be around in 2k 
: years, and it happens to be religious fiction (*quickflame*: Ain't it all?),
: then would that be an 'ancient religious text' which could be accepted as
: fact?

There are many religious texts around the world that can be verified with a
high degree of accuracy, and which tally well with our own experiences today.
(The christian bible seems to not be one of those, however).

: >: >Killing will generate a large amount of disharmonious karma.  Kissing her, in
: >: >some circumstances, may also generate disharmonious karma.
: >: 
: >: If a man has roamed the country, doing much bodily harm for some time, and 
: >: I have an opportunity to end this destruction, I will. I consider the 'karma'
: >: (if you want to call it that) of the world, rather than my own, and in fact,
: >: I would benefit from that act, having made the world a better place.
: >
: >I don't want to get into a long-winded discussion of karma, since this
: >more properly belongs on talk.religion.newage.  Tibetans believe that
: >*any* killing, justified or not, beings undesirable karma on the perpetrator,
: >while Buddhism (and several other religious) do not.
: I guess I took _Lords_of_Light_ too seriously. :)

Uh, whatever *that* is...
-- 
Ed Carp, N7EKG		erc@apple.com	<-- preferred email address!

801/      "This is the final task I will ever give you, and  it  goes
269-      on  forever.   Act  happy,  feel happy, be happy, without a
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe)
Subject: Re: Angels
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 15:44:52 GMT

harris@drvax3.msfc.nasa.gov (Mitch Harris) writes:

>I'm not sure if this is the right group to post in, but here goes:
>Has anyone read " A Book of Angels", & if so, do you believe in them?
>Has anyone had an experience which might be construed as an encounter
>with angels?
>Thanks!


I have not read that book, but I have seen the Senior member of our Community
pull it down as a reference.  That book certainly has no effect on our views on
Angels, since the Senior member only got it in the last few years.

Both the Senior member and I accept angels as real, independent spirit- beings.
They do not have wings, or any other sort of bodies, except in our limited human
minds.  We both experience them fairly often, he more often than I.  It is 
sometimes quite interesting to be having a conversation with him and to be 
aware that he is having another part of the conversation with someone (not
somebody) else in the pauses in his speech.  It is also sometime quite 
annoying. :-)  Our Community's general awareness of and openness to angels,
etc., is why the folk band which consists almost exclusively (5 out of 6) of
members of our Community has written a song called "Sing From a Book of Angels".
The song lists Mike and Gabe in the chorus, and Raph and Uriel show up in one 
of the verses.  Please note that there is half of a Christian in the band.
Angels do not belong to Christianity or to any dogma.

              Merry meet, merry part, merry meet again,
                               Br'anArthur

Queer, Peculiar, and Wyrd! :-)
Newsgroups: alt.magick