From: turpin@cs.utexas.edu (Russell Turpin)
Newsgroups: sci.med
Subject: Where Robert Greenstein goes wrong  (was: Hypothyroidism)
Date: 12 Jan 1993 10:26:32 -0600
Organization: CS Dept, University of Texas at Austin
NNTP-Posting-Host: im4u.cs.utexas.edu
Summary: Not all simple concepts are true.

-*----
I wrote:
>> ... Tell us, Robert, had traditional Chinese medicine even
>> characterized the biochemical function of the thyroid?  Did
>> they have any way to measure thyroid function?  Did they
>> distinguish hypothyroidism from other diseases with similar 
>> symtoms?  Did they know anything of its causes? 

In article <1993Jan11.222905.9161@island.COM> green@island.COM (Robert Greenstein) writes:
> No. No. No. and No. THe Chinese medical system does not treat 
> "Western" diseases. That is, diseases with Western medical
> labels attached to them. ...

Hypothyroidism occurs all over the world.  There is no reason
to think that hypothyroidism progresses or responds differently 
depending on the label attached to it.

> ... CHinese medicine certainly knows the effects of the 
> remedies.  THe signs and symptoms improve, and the patient
> gets better. WHy is that such a difficult concept to grasp?

The concept is simple.  But there are two problems.  The first is
that Robert Greenstein has no way of knowing what he claims.  In
order to know this, he needs to have in hand some studies that
shows for the "signs and symptoms" that include hypothyroidism,
treatment by some traditional Chinese remedy functions better
than a placebo.  Do you have this, Robert?  If not, then the
notion is simple, but we have little reason to believe it. 

But even if the Chinese remedy is effective in *some* cases, a
second problem arises: it may not be effective for
hypothyroidism.  Modern medicine has a finer categorization of
diseases than older traditions.  In *addition* to describing
signs and symptoms, it is able to measure a variety of internal
anatomic problems, physiological functions, and biochemistry
states that frequently elucidate many *different* causes for the
same kinds of symptoms. 

For all Robert Greenstein knows, the Chinese remedies for the
"signs and symptoms" of hypothyroidism work for every cause of
these "signs and symptoms" *except* hypothyroidism.  He has no 
way of knowing because no studies of this have been done.  

-*----
In understanding the workings of the human body and various
disease processes -- indeed, in understanding *any* natural
phenomenon -- one wants to account for as much of the empirical
data as possible.  Robert Greenstein tends to treat different
traditions as if they had incommensurable languages.  This is the
kind of philosophical drivel that comes from those who read
too much new-age bullshit (or who read Derrida too shallowly).

Translations are possible, and because of this, so are
comparisons between different traditions.  In fact, many basic
"signs and symptoms" are common between the different medical
traditions.  The recognition that one often feels lousy at the
same time that one has a fever or breaks out in spots does not
require so much theory that it is likely to be missed by *any*
medical tradition.  Moreover, modern medicine -- thanks to the
modern advent of science that some peole would just as soon
ignore in these discussions -- makes distinctions that were
impossible in former traditions.  The "signs and symptoms" used
by the ancient Chinese (or ancient Hellenes) are not wrong, they
are just not enough.  And just as we have finer distinctions for
the empirical data, we also make finer distinctions in evaluating
the evidence. 

The concept Robert Greenstein advances is simple.  Unfortunately,
there is little reason to think it is as true or as useful as he
asserts.

Russell