HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: bx573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alan H. Stein)
Subject: Re: BILL CLINTON ON ISRAEL AND THE MIDDLE
Reply-To: bx573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alan H. Stein)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 92 21:05:15 GMT


In a previous article, nabil@ncrcol.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM (Nabil Idriss) says:

>Well, one of the major concessions is the departure from the idea of
>liberating Palestine and accepting the WB and Gazza.

Funny, I haven't seen that concession made, and it's still part of the PLO
Charter.  (Or does the PLO not represent the Palestinian Arabs this week.?)
>
>If Rabin was correct in what he said last week on MCcneil Lehrer news
>hour that he is prepared to offer the Palestininas a first step self
>rule and elections on the next peace talks, it would be a good time
>to end of boycott. I would prefer to see a final solution before the
>end of the boycott.
>
Then, what concessions would you offer at this point?  Would you be willing
to stop stabbing Israeli women and children in the back, and just
concentrating on men?

>You make it sound like that building settlements in the territories was
>a right for Israel to do and they gave up this right for the loan gurantees.
>
Anything wrong with that?  Or are you in favor of apartheid?
>>
>>>>    o Eroded Israel's security needs by selling billions of
>>>>      dollars in sophisticated weaponry to Israel's Arab neighbors.
>>>>
>>>     * If the United States does not sell weapons to allies like 
>>>       Saudi Arabia then Britian will and the United States will
>>>       loose billions of dollars. After all they are allies and
>>>       they boost the economy of the Western world by lowering
>>>       the price of oil. 
>>
>>Where do you buy *your* gasoline? I pay $1.25/gallon, up from $0.98
>>last September.
>
>Did you notice how much the price of gasoline went up during the Gulf Crisis?
>$40+ a gallon which would make the gasoline price $2.50/gallon. If the OPEC wants
>to raise the prices to this range, they can. That is actually was the intention

>Simply NO! Jordan=Jordan=The Hashemites and Palestine=Palestine=Palestinians.

Please check the words of King Hussein and the PNC Charter, which disagree
with that.


>If I go to Jordan with a refugee passport to obtain a visa, they will spit in my
>face at the airport.
> 
Complain to the eastern Palestinian government then, not to us.
-- 
bx573@cleveland.freenet.edu----Alan H. Stein----stein@uconnvm.uconn.edu
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: davidba@carmel.technion.ac.il (David Ben_Ami)
Subject: Re: NUKE IRAQ
Organization: Technion, Israel Inst. of Technology
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 20:45:09 GMT

>Ilyess writes:
>Saddam couldn't care less about his people.. The U.S intentionally
>spared him to let him crash the shiites. So the war was not about
>Saddam and his little aggression, it is about Iraq and its resources
>and economic and military power, which if they fall in the hands of really
>hostile forces (to Israel that is) such as an independed  democratic
>

Who can be more dangerous to Israel than Saddam? 
I think America should have done what it did to Germany and Japan
after WWII de-Saddamization. create the first TRULY democratic Arab
regime in history. this regime would be naturally attracted to Israel
as it would not have any brainwashed and halfbaked notions about Israel.

I think that Bush had miscalculated to the disadvantage of Israel and
in the long run the whole world. He made the Hitler-Saddam analogy and
sjould have acted along the lines of it.

BTW, Israel was as surprised as the rest of the world when the
uni-lateral cease fire came to be.

David.
-- 
=============================================================================
  David Ben-Ami (irc: bigdav)      |   "I can resist anything but Temptation"
  s2780369@Techst02.Technion.Ac.Il |       Oscar Wilde
  davidba@Carmel.Technion.Ac.Il  davidba@Moav.Techniona.Ac.Il
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: goykhman_a@apollo.hp.com (Alex Goykhman)
Subject: Re: Muslims killed in Yeguslavia
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 22:36:00 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Corporation, Chelmsford, MA

In article <1411@yetti.UUCP> aboelaze@cs.yorku.ca (Mokhtar Aboelaze) writes:
>In article <Bt6pLM.IDD@apollo.hp.com> goykhman_a@apollo.hp.com (Alex Goykhman) writes:
>
>>    Mr. Aboelaze,
>>
>>    My postings were based on information provided by a general who was
>>    the commander the UN peacekeeping forces in Bosnia.  The general
>>    made his statements while appearing on McNeil-Lehrer News Hour,
>>    one of the most respected news program watched by millions of
>>    people in this country and around the world.
>>
>Wait a minute here, you said 
>                                                                       
>      Chances are, the grenades were launched from the Muslim-controlled
>      territory.  One thing is certain - the only beneficiary of the
>      attack was the Bosnian Muslim war propaganda machine.
>
>
>DID THE GENERAL SAY THIS ?

    When somebody on the show condemned the Serbians for using artillery
    against the mourners, the general made the following statements:

        the mourners were attacked with rifle grenade launchers, NOT 
        shelled by the Serbian artillery (implying that the attack 
        came from a close range)

        one should not rush to a conclusion blaming the attack on
        the Serbs

    A televised attack on the mourners strengthen the case for Western 
    intervention in Bosnia, something the Bosnian goverment had been
    requesting all along.

>>
>>    BTW, the general also repeatedly said that the best way to
>>    bring about peace in Bosnia was to put pressure on the Bosnian
>>    goverment who was refusing to negotiate with the Serbs in hope
>>    that the West would intervene militarily.  Hard to believe?
>>    Check the transcript!
>>
>The General said this, so what ? does this make it true
>just because the General said it

    I have little doubt what he said was true at the time, partly
    because of his position as a high-ranking UN official, partly
    because nobody ever challenged what he said.

    Today the Boston Globe printed an article saying that the Bosnian
    goverment had changed its position on the issue and was ready
    to accept cantonization of Bosnia.  I guess they realized there 
    would be no military intervention from the West.





-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Disclaimer: all opinions are mine.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: singer@uwovax.uwo.ca
Subject: Nettiquette Nonsense
Organization: University of Western Ont, London
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 22:40:06 GMT

Criticisms of an author who posts information on a book that is relevant to
this newsgroup are inane. I regularly receive valuable news about relevant
publications in other groups, often posted by t author and forwarded by the
group's administrators. Virtually the same thing. This is an information
medium, after all, despite the fact that so much of it is occupied by
hate-mongers and dunces of redundancy. After all, Dr. Werman's book was
published by an academic press, so it has already been refereed by qualified
scholars. I would hope that others who are good enough to get a book published
(that is relevant to this group's interests) would be kind enough to let us
know about it; such early notices are among the benefits of attending to this
groups's communications.--
From: stricher@masig.fsu.edu (Char Aznabul)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Sledgehammer Tactics
Date: 13 Aug 92 19:09:36 GMT
Followup-To: talk.politics.mideast,misc.headlines,talk.politics.misc
Organization: Murasami Labs

In article <1992Aug13.001658.23915@bony1.bony.com>, jake@bony1.bony.com
(Jake Livni) wrote:

> Has the US conducted more military exercises in the past with Saudi
> Arabia than with Israel?  Why should the Israelis be such poor
> partners, as compared, say, to the Saudis?

We train the Saudi pilots. We train their Ground Control Intercept
operators.
We train their AWACS people. 
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: bval@ilws61 (Valentine Bob)
Subject: Yitzhak Rabin, another the self-hating Jew
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 07:41:27 GMT
Organization: Intel
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4

Yigal brings up some interesting points in quoting the Israeli
newspaper articles about discrimination in the Knesset.

I don't doubt that such a situation exists and, though troubling,
I'm not sure what the alternatives are. 

The Israeli Arab population, though citizens, are bascially the
same "people" as the Palestinians, who are officially at war with
Israel, (PLO covenant etc.) and who are joined in that war by
all of Israels neighbors barring Egypt.

If one says that due to these reasons, there are legitimate security
concerns regarding the sensitivity of information that these people
are exposed to, then the counter argument is that you

	"condone discrimination", "would you support the U.S. internment
	camps for Japanese Americans in WWII" "support ethnic cleansing"
	"concentration camps"

and all sorts of other examples of "security related" justifications
for discrimination and worse.

Its not a comfortable situation. It would be nice if all the countrys in
the region (and/or world) practiced no discrimination.

I'm not prepared to make Israel become the first in the region, at least
before comprehensive peace with all the neighbors is acheived.

Which means, that Israeli democracy is compromised, for the cause of its
survival. This is a routine (and routinely abused) trade-off made by many
countrys in the world.

The special thing about it in Israel and other democracys is that, as
shown by Mr. Arens quoting these newspaper sources, it can receive press
attention and is subject to free public debate.

Bob
From: rivk@ellis.uchicago.edu (nora gayle rivkis)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: He Who Saves a Single Soul...
Date: 23 Aug 92 14:23:12 GMT
Reply-To: rivk@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations

In article <25106@castle.ed.ac.uk> egpv29@castle.ed.ac.uk (JHenderson) writes:
>In article <1992Aug23.074617.14487@cs.anu.edu.au> bdm@cs.anu.edu.au writes:
>=>
>=>In article 17077@rs.com, horen@rs.com (Jonathan B. Horen) writes:
>=>>
>=>>You're a voyeur. You have no personal, abiding interest in the Middle East.
>
>Of course most sentient beings would see this as evidence of impartiality.

They would? That's news to almost every legal system in the world. Look
up the term "standing" in a legal dictionary.

>=>I see.  The old "only people with a vested interest may comment" argument.
>
>Naah - if you had a vested interest they would simply accuse you of "bias".
>It's much simpler than that - *only the followers of Zionism may comment*.

I don't object to Nabil or Anisa commenting; I just argue with them
when they do. I recommend you don't try to call them followers of
Zionism; they might take offense.

-- 
"Light one candle for those who are suffering pain we learned so long ago..."
From: makowsky@enuxha.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky)
Subject: Re: Schmidling is simply wrong.
Reply-To: makowsky@enuxha.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky)
Organization: Arizona State University, Tempe AZ
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 00:10:20 GMT

In article <1992Aug12.155036.17166@usenet.ins.cwru.edu> bx573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alan H. Stein) writes:
 
# In a previous article, eggertj@moses.atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert x6127 g41) says:
 
# >I read an interesting account of the Liberty affair (you know, when
# >the Israelis bombed the USS Liberty during the 1967 Arab-Israeli war)
# >in the book
# >        AUTHOR: Steven, Stewart, 1937-
# >         TITLE: The spymasters of Israel / Stewart Steven.
# >     PUB. INFO: New York : Macmillan, c1980.
# >   DESCRIPTION: xxi, 329 p., [4] leaves of plates : ill. ; 24 cm.

# >According to Steven, the attack on the Liberty was by no means a
# >mistake.  (I know that has been hashed out on the net already, but go
# >on.)  The Israelis had been intercepting radio transmissions from
# >Cairo and rebroadcasting them to Jordan in a modified form, making the
# >war news sound like Egypt was winning.  This was an obvious attempt to
# >lure Jordan into the war, which succeeded.
 
# The fact that the unfortunate Liberty incident occurred several days
# -after- Jordan attacked Israel exposes the absurdity of these lies.

	So does the fact that the technology to pull off that radio
transmission substitution in real time did not exist at the time.  I
hope the author is not asking us to buy the theory that this was not
done in real time.  There is no way that could have been pulled off.
--

David Makowsky
makowsky@enuxha.eas.asu.edu
From: aboelaze@cs.yorku.ca (Mokhtar Aboelaze)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Muslims killed in Yeguslavia
Date: 15 Aug 92 18:32:16 GMT
Article-I.D.: yetti.1401
Organization: York University, Dept. of Computer Science

In article <keX8y5_00WB3Ip3Xw8@andrew.cmu.edu> re0x+@andrew.cmu.edu (Radu Eugen Edelstein) writes:
>I say:
>First,
>Serbs constituted a large percentage of Sarajevo's population (estimates
>are between 35% and 45%).  The war will end and it seems very likely that
>the Bosnians will win Sarajevo (with outside support).  What percentage of
>Sarajevo do you think will still be Serbs ?
>
>Rad

I don't know.

I just hope, that after this vectory you are talking about, the Bosnians
will not do a little bit of "ethnic cleansing", and if the serbs in B.H.
want to continue to live in there as Bosnian citizen, they should
be able to.

                                                                   
                                                                    
--Mokhtar Aboelaze   aboelaze@cs.yorku.ca
From: egpv29@castle.ed.ac.uk (JHenderson)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: He Who Saves a Single Soul...
Date: 23 Aug 92 12:01:46 GMT
Organization: Edinburgh University

In article <1992Aug23.074617.14487@cs.anu.edu.au> bdm@cs.anu.edu.au writes:
=>
=>In article 17077@rs.com, horen@rs.com (Jonathan B. Horen) writes:
=>>
=>>You're a voyeur. You have no personal, abiding interest in the Middle East.

Of course most sentient beings would see this as evidence of impartiality.

=>I see.  The old "only people with a vested interest may comment" argument.

Naah - if you had a vested interest they would simply accuse you of "bias".
It's much simpler than that - *only the followers of Zionism may comment*.


-- 
==================================================================
-Jeremy Henderson            |  Une souris verte
 egpv29@castle.ed.ac.uk	     |  Qui courrait dans l'herbe
==================================================================
From: karr@ukc.ac.uk (K.A.R.Razzooqi)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Answering Lady Anisa
Date: 15 Aug 92 21:26:53 GMT
Organization: Computing Lab, University of Kent at Canterbury, UK.

Anisa wrote an answer to my last letter,which I must admit was very informative of Anisas personality.She does not support me in judging here according to here
writings,thus she does.
I read here response three times(although it does not worth it) because I
did not want to rush my response.
I am not going to answer what she wrote because it is all rubbish and does not
depend on facts,most self created lies.And I do not think that it deserve an 
answer because the level of argument that Anisa is using is as low as here.
I had arguments with other people on the net (like Mr Jaber) and it never 
reached the level that Anisa reached,although we did not agree on many issues.
Also if Anisa had an argument surely the level of language that she used did
not convince me to respect here views.I always respect peoples view as long as
it does have a point to present without bad attacking language,even if I do 
not agree with them.
But I could not respect Anisas views because they lack the above.
Anisas response speaks for it self and I leave it to the reader to judge 
it for him self.
______________________________________________________________________________
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Article 44185 of talk.politics.mideast:
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Subject: Re: Israel: Chutzpah at the Negotiating Table
Organization: Aiken Computation Lab, Harvard University
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 16:58:57 GMT

In article <10316@sun13.scri.fsu.edu> stricher@masig.fsu.edu (Char Aznabul) writes:
>Adam Shostack writes

>+ Meet in the region, Cairo or Tel-Aviv should both be acceptable sites
>+ to all parties.  Why are middle East peace talks taking place in
>+ Washington?  Parties should negotiate with each other, not via Baker.

>Because nobody can agree on a place to meet that's acceptable to *all*
>the participants and still be in the MidEast??

Why on Earth would Cairo not be acceptable?  And whats wrong with
Tel-Aviv as a site? I can see problems with Jerusalem, but why not
Tel-Aviv, or Cairo?


Adam Shostack 					adam@das.harvard.edu

What a terrible thing to have lost one's .sig.  Or not to have a .sig
at all.  How true that is.      
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: goykhman_a@apollo.hp.com (Alex Goykhman)
Subject: Re: Muslims killed in Yeguslavia
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 14:58:33 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Chelmsford, MA

In article <1404@yetti.UUCP> aboelaze@cs.yorku.ca (Mokhtar Aboelaze) writes:
>In article <Bt579J.9ED@apollo.hp.com> goykhman_a@apollo.hp.com (Alex Goykhman) writes:
>>
>>
>>    Chances are, the grenades were launched from the Muslim-controlled 
>>    territory.  One thing is certain - the only beneficiary of the
>>    attack was the Bosnian Muslim war propaganda machine.
>>
>                                                                         
>Right, don't you know that blacks in South Arfica are responsible for
>apartheid, afterall, they are the only beneficiary of the whole
>world opposing S.A. govrnment.
>The Jews put theselves in gas chambers in Nazi Germany, afterall
>they are the only beneficiary of forming the state of Israel after WWII
>
>Mr. Goykhman. Chaneces are, you are sick.
>
>
>--Mokhtar Aboelaze

    Mr. Aboelaze,

    My postings were based on information provided by a general who was
    the commander the UN peacekeeping forces in Bosnia.  The general
    made his statements while appearing on McNeil-Lehrer News Hour,
    one of the most respected news program watched by millions of
    people in this country and around the world.

    You could easily obtain a transcript of the show and challenge
    me, or the general, on the substance, yet you chose to respond with
    an ad hominem attack on my persona.  Why?  Not because you are
    sick, but because, deeply in your heart, you know that the attack
    on mourners may have been staged by the Bosnian Muslims for
    propaganda purposes, and you are afraid of facing the facts.

    Alex

    BTW, the general also repeatedly said that the best way to
    bring about peace in Bosnia was to put pressure on the Bosnian
    goverment who was refusing to negotiate with the Serbs in hope
    that the West would intervene militarily.  Hard to believe?
    Check the transcript!



-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Disclaimer: all opinions are mine.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: nabil@ncrcol.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM (Nabil Idriss)
Subject: Re: He Who Saves a Single Soul...
Organization: NCR E&M Columbia SC.
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 92 14:39:06 GMT

In article <Bt7Lqy.4sD.1@cs.cmu.edu> clamen+@CS.CMU.EDU writes:
>In article <1992Aug18.204449.10608@ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM> nabil@ncrcol.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM (Nabil Idriss) writes:
>
>
>   In article <1992Aug17.140232.19511@rs.com> horen@rs.com writes:
>   >
>   >>                     Attention Israel Line Recipients
>   >>  
>   >>                         Monday  August 17, 1992
>   >>  
>   >>  
>   >> Peres Approves Israeli Arab Initiative to Bring Yugoslavian Orphans
>   >> to Israel
>   >>  
>   >> Today's AL HAMISHMAR reports that Foreign Minister Shimon Peres
>   >> yesterday approved the Muslim Rescue Committee's mission to bring
>   >> orphans from the embattled areas of Bosnia to Israel. In a letter
>   >> sent to the Muslim Committee, Peres said that he welcomes the
>   >> initiative of the members of the committee to save children from
>   >> the war torn areas without regard to religion or nationality. 
>   > 
>   >I'm waiting to see which of the Arab media report approval by
>   >the Foreign Ministers of the Arab League/GCC members to bring
>   >Jewish orphans from war-torn Bosnia-Herzegovina to their countries.
>
>   Why did you emphasize "Arabs" instead of "Moslem" countries? There is 
>   a lot of them like Pakistan, Iran, Azerbijan, Turkey.You also speak 
>   like you own the whole land of Palestine. Remember that it belongs to
>   Arab Moslems as well.     
>
>What about Arab Christians?
>
>--

Yes and Arab Christians too, but the above argument was based on bringing
Muslim orphans from Bosnia.


>Stewart M. Clamen			Internet:    clamen@cs.cmu.edu
>School of Computer Science		UUCP: 	     uunet!"clamen@cs.cmu.edu"
>Carnegie Mellon University		Phone: 	     +1 412 268 2145
>5000 Forbes Avenue			Fax:	     +1 412 268 5739
>Pittsburgh, PA 15213-3890, USA


-- 
Nabil Idriss                           |       FOR EVERY ACTION AN OPPOSITE  
NCR - Midrange Products Division       |       AND EQUAL REACTION.
      Columbia, South Carolina         |      
email: nabil@ncrcol.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM |
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: schultz@garnet.berkeley.edu (Richard Schultz)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: NOTES FROM A SEALED ROOM: An Israeli View of the Gulf War
Date: 14 Aug 1992 05:44:32 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: garnet.berkeley.edu

In article <14AUG199200421747@vms.huji.ac.il> rwerman@vms.huji.ac.il 
(ROBERT WERMAN) writes:

>_NOTES FROM A SEALED ROOM: AN Israeli View of the Gulf War_
>Robert Werman
>
>       Let me introduce myself.  I am Robert Werman, MD. . . .

Yes, but will Yigal Arens get a personally inscribed copy?
Inquiring minds want to know. :->

					Richard Schultz
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: grad@sparky.drad.umn.edu (Jonathan Grad)
Subject: Re: Scudbusters
Organization: University of Minnesota, Radiology Department
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 21:54:47 GMT

In article <EGGERTJ.92Aug13152818@moses.atc.ll.mit.edu> eggertj@atc.ll.mit.edu writes:
stuff deleted
>Remind me, is this the same Israeli AF that executed the infamous
>attack against the slow-moving, non-stealthy, and ill-defended USS
>Liberty?  A ship the Israelis couldn't identify after hours of recon,
>and didn't after three attack waves?  Or so goes the official story...
>
>Seems to me that either the Israelis aren't so hot at identifying and
>killing targets after all, or that the Liberty story as told in public
>is wrong.  Take your choice.
>--
>=Jim  eggertj@atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert)

What does the liberty have to do with anything?

The ability of the Israeli AF in 1967 is not relevant
in determining its ability in 1992.