From: faigin@aero.org (Daniel P. Faigin)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Orthadox Judaism and women
Date: 9 Jan 93 08:36:37
Organization: The Aerospace Corporation, El Segundo, CA
	<1993Jan8.231125.17773@netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: solarium.aero.org
In-reply-to: madhaus@netcom.com's message of Fri, 8 Jan 1993 23:11:25 GMT

On Fri, 8 Jan 1993 23:11:25 GMT, madhaus@netcom.com (Maddi Hausmann) said:

>>First of all, you must remember that from the point of view of the Orthodox,
>>their behavior is not sexist. Women have a set of obligations given by G-d;
>>men have a set of obligations from the same source -- and you don't question
>>the source. Rather, you are thankful that you have your set of obligations.
>>Neither set is more or less important -- all are important for the sanctity
>>of the world. You thank G-d each day that you have been given your
>>obligations.

> Your last sentence says that you thank G-d each day that you have
> been given your obligations.  

You didn't read what I wrote closely. I said that the Orthodox thank G-d in
this way. Personally, I am Reform, and I do not hold with the Orthodox
position. Like you, I do not feel the Orthodox approach is appropriate to this
day and age. However, unlike you, I recognize why the Orthodox feel the way
they do, and why FROM THEIR POINT OF VIEW they do not consider their behavior
sexist. 

> Perhaps you or another poster would
> care to explain why men thank G-d they were not created female,

From *MY* understanding, it is because if they were created female, they
wouldn't have the great honor of being obliged to study Torah. Torah is the
center of Orthodoxy.

> while women thank G-d that they were created what they were.  

Women say this IN ORTHODOXY because they have the great honor of providing the
support system necessary so that men can study Torah. I personally do not
agree with these prayers, but that is the Orthodox point of view.

> But sexism, defined as the assignment of roles, privileges, and 
> restrictions by sex, is still sexism.  A law or tradition can be
> sexist and still be useful.  It is the rigidity of the law or
> tradition I object to.

Then don't be Orthodox. I'm not. As Liberal Jews, we can recognize something
as sexist. When viewed from within the rigidity, it doesn't appear sexist
because the tradition provides an explanation that makes sense in the context
of the tradition.

In other words, although you and I may feel it is sexist, it is a pointless
argument to try and convince the Orthodox. It is simply part of their
tradition, has a place in their tradition, makes sense from their tradition.
It does devolve to the traditional R/C/O schism, and cannot be resolved.

> I posted a series of articles earlier explaining why I became
> disillusions with religion (I was brought up Jewish).  It was the
> sexism that started my unease and questioning.  I did some
> study.  So many of the laws and traditions seemed to apply to a
> society that no longer exists.

OK. I don't think that you'll be sucessful discussing this here (in s.c.j).
There is a general attitude in the newsgroup that leans towards the Orthodox,
and you'll rapidly fall into the O/C/R flamewar. I suggest you contact me
regarding the mail.liberal-judaism mailing list, which I run. If you can
phrase the question such that it does not say the Orthodox position is
invalid, but rather it was not right for you (and thus you moved to the
liberal side), I would welcome the contribution to the list.

> Let us examine the Purity Laws.  They proscribe physical contact
> between husband and wife for two weeks of every four.  The no-touch
> period is Days 28 to 12 of the menstrual cycle.  The most fertile
> point is Days 14 to 16, and sperm are volatile for 48 hours.  

As a Reform Jew, I don't hold or follow the ritual purity laws. I'm sure they
are rational from the Orthodox point of view, but I am not aware of the
argument (other than "G-ds word").

Daniel Faigin
Moderator, Liberal Judaism Mailing List.

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