HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: stank@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (Stan Krieger)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: What's the role of the Pack Committee Chair vs. Cubmaster
Date: 31 Aug 92 15:54:26 GMT
Article-I.D.: cbnewsl.1992Aug31.155426.23063
Organization: Summit NJ

>I am curious how different packs split the work between the committee
>chair and the cubmaster.  I was just "promoted" to cubmaster, and the
>formerly ineffective cubmaster has moved into committee chair as a
>"temporary".  
>
>My first concern is to rebuild pack leadership.  This is especially
>important as the pack has not recovered from the loss of the old pack
>leadership of 1.5 yrs ago and I'll be moving up to Boy Scouts in
>March.  I'd hate to see the pack fall apart.

For the one year that I was active in Cub Scouts (5th grade Webelos
Leader), the way I saw it done was that the Pack Committee handled
all the support tasks, while the Cubmaster handled anything directly
related to the boys.  Our Troop does it the same way.

The result was that the Cubmaster recruited the Den Leaders, while the
Committee Chair recruited the Treasurer, Blue and Gold Dinner Chair,
arranged for meeting space for the Pack meetings, etc.

One final thing-  I personally believe that the Committee Chair should
be given visibility because, to most of the parents and all the kids,
the central figure is the Scoutmaster (and they don't even know about
the Troop or Pack Committee).
-- 
Stan Krieger                     All opinions, advice, or suggestions, even
AT&T UNIX System Laboratories    if related to my employment, are my own.
Summit, NJ
smk@usl.com
From: buboo@alf.uib.no (Ove Ruben R Olsen)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: Okay, rec.scouting take two...
Date: 1 Sep 92 07:15:16 GMT
Followup-To: poster
Organization: University of Bergen, Norway

USENET DISCLAIMER: Some of the contents in this posting may contain
		   material that you, as a reader, find offensive. 
		   This is not intentional. Do not flame. If you want
		   to flame do it in private mail. 

Carl M. Kadie writes:

>About turning things around. Since 90% of the current articles are
>about policy then why don't we keep the policy discussions in
>rec.scouting and create a new rec.scouting.wisdom for discussion of
>local tips and experiences?  (I assume you would vote against this
>reorganziation.)

Most of the policy discussion is about BSA policy. It's amazing how
the scouting in the USA is so much on the "war path". I wonder how
those people can teach their scout to be "FRIENDLY" (4th item on the
BSA scout law). 
Taken from "The Scoutmaster Handbook", BSA, 1990:
   A Scout is FRIENDLY. A Scout is friend to all. He is a brother to
   other Scouts and all the people of the world. He seeks to understand
   other. He respect those with ideas and customs that are different
   from his own. 

And some pages ahead:
   A Scout is CLEAN. A Scout keeps his body and mind fit and clean. He 
   chooses the company of those who live by these same ideals. He helps
   keep his home and community clean.
I belive this is saying something like: If _*YOU*_ do not find yourself
comfortable with your currenct company you should change, it is not
_*THEIR*_ fault that you feel as you do.
If you become sick at work, you go home. Your collegues (SP??) is still
at work.

>I think the fairest reorganization, and one that we could both vote
>for, would be to replace rec.scouting with two new newsgroups (say,
>rec.scouting.policy and rec.scouting.wisdom).

Good idea, but I would rather prefer:
    rec.scouting.policy.bsa	- BSA, and BSA only.
    rec.scouting.policy.misc	- Others. Minimal BSA stuff.
    rec.scouting.wisdom		- Non political.

\Ruben.
(L{/o}v{o^a}s/Fyllingsdalen Speidergruppe, Bergen, Norway - EUROPE)

-- 
        Ove Ruben R Olsen a Gnarfer and VI user. EMAIL: ruben@uib.no. 
     Maintaining the EX/VI-archive and a couple of the Comp.Editors FAQs.
    People that are ignorant tend to live a frustrated life, at least when 
     it comes to editing - But I do belive this is a general rule in life
Xref: sparky rec.scouting:2600 alt.discrimination:3999 chi.general:868 alt.atheism:15946 alt.politics.homosexuality:5539
From: kenk@sdc.com (Ken Konecki)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting,alt.discrimination,chi.general,alt.atheism,alt.politics.homosexuality
Subject: Re: BofA and UW can now support discrimination against blacks and Jews
Date: 26 Aug 92 13:35:19 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Systems Development Corporation

In article <1992Aug24.170749.6911@microsoft.com> philipla@microsoft.com (Phil Lafornara) writes:
>However, for the BSA to accept money from the United Way, which was
>designed to allow contributions to non-religious, non-discriminatory
>organizations, is reprehensible.

No it's not.  The United Way is free to do whatever it damn well pleases
with its money, and the Boy Scouts are free to accept funds from whatever
source it feels appropriate.  It is no more reprehensible than you
accepting money from your employer.

Cheers,
    -Ken K
-- 
Ken Konecki
e-mail:kenk@sdc.com    -or-    ...!uunet!tellab5!sdc!kenk
"I just found out that the brain is like a computer.  If that's true,
then there really aren't any stupid people.  Just people running DOS."
Newsgroups: rec.scouting,alt.discrimination,chi.general,alt.atheism,alt.politics.homosexuality
From: arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee)
Subject: Re: BofA and UW can now support discrimination against blacks and Jews
Organization: Johns Hopkins University CS Dept.
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 23:36:38 GMT

In article <1992Aug28.030524.11674@cbnewsl.cb.att.com> stank@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (Stan Krieger) writes:
>Unlike legitimate minorities, a person's sexual
>behavior, as well as such other anti-societal behavior such as
>commune living, drug usage, or religious cult membership, is a
>person's choice.  A person whose ancestors are from Japan or
>Africa didn't have a choice.

It's true that homosexual behavior is a choice.  To practice Judaism is also a
choice.  Is it therefore OK to exclude people who practice Judaism?
--
"the bogosity in a field equals the bogosity imported from related areas, plus
the bogosity generated internally, minus the bogosity expelled or otherwise
disposed of."  -- K. Eric Drexler

Ken Arromdee (UUCP: ....!jhunix!arromdee; BITNET: arromdee@jhuvm;
     INTERNET: arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu)
Xref: sparky rec.scouting:2744 alt.politics.homosexuality:5621
From: me
Newsgroups: rec.scouting,alt.politics.homosexuality
Subject: Re: BofA and UW can now support discrimination against blacks and Jews
Date: 1 Sep 92 22:20:10 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network

In article <hill.715369256@galena12> hill@rtsg.mot.com (Karen Hill) writes:
>anthropo@carina.unm.edu (Dominick V. Zurlo) writes:
>>So, gay or straight, doesn't matter in this instance.
>
>So what we have here, is that anything is ok (moral, whatever) as long as
>someone believes it is and prescribes to that kind of behavior or belief?

Note the "in this instance." As someone being gay cannot adversely affect
another person, then it isn't not Ok.... Now, if you believed that it
was perfectly Ok to go out and kill people, then it would NOT apply, as
killing people (oddly enough) also affects them..... 
This blows your reasonong out of the water....

>
>So that must mean that there are no longer any absolutes. Nothing is absolutely
>right and nothing is absolutely wrong because someone, somewhere believes it
>is ok.

See above.....


>> 4).So, you're fairly rigid in your beliefs.  Then if you don't like the 
>>scoutmaster/other leaders in a troop, find another one.  Troops split 
>>over smaller issues than this continually.  if a troop has a gay leader, 
>>and you don't like that, find a troop that doesn't have one.  There are
>>definately enough troops to do that.  Just as you;d attend another 
>>synagogue.    >-- 
>
>Ok...say you have a scout troop where X ( where X is a significant portion of
>the troop) number of scouts and their parents do not prescribe to 
>homosexual behavior. Say also that the scout leader is gay. Who should
>leave...all those "homophobe" scouts and their families or the
>gay scout leader? Who chooses who's rights are more important here? If
>either side leaves, discrimination can be claimed.

Neither should necessarily leave. Just because the SM is gay in this
situation, doesn't mean that the "significant portion" of the troop
has to be gay... Just because a SM is black/Methodist/a smoker doesn't
mean that the troop boys/parents have to be black/Methodist/smokers...

That's what tolerance is about.......

Tom Cronin
Eagle Scout who believes what the BSA preaches (but doesn't practice...)
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
 ______    Thomas Cronin         "Extinction is not something to contemplate;
(______)   CEE/Theatre Eng.       rather, it is something to rebel against."
   ||      Purdue University      from _The_Fate_of_the_Earth_ by J. Schell
   ||               "Trinitrotoluene is an educational toy." - me
-=NUKE=-      cronin@ecn.purdue.edu or fester@minuet.cc.purdue.edu
From: johanl@Siri.Unit.NO (Johan Lars Haavardtun)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Norwegian National Jamboree 93
Date: 31 Aug 92 07:25:54 GMT
Organization: Norwegian Institute of Technology

Hello everybody.

The planning for the National Jamboree is well away, and I thought I should use this group to
announce the event. The text is a copy of the letter that the Guide and Scout Association send out.
If you have any question contact me or the head office(addr. se below). I think we should have some
more information ready sometimes during september.

----
The Norwegian Guide and Scout Association (NSF) will hold their national jamboree at Ingelsrud
campsite in Eidskog community 100 km. east of Norway's capital city, Oslo. The jamboree will be from
July 31th to August 7th 1993.

This will be the fourth national jamboree held by NSF since the formation of our joint organization
for boy scouts and girl guides in 1978.

About 15000 guides and scouts are expected to participate. The campsite is located just 5 km. from
the swedish border in beatiful surroundings in a big forest with lot of lakes. An ideal cite for
wild-life scouting-experiences. The camp fee will be about 1000 NKr.

We will at a later stage return with more detailed information about the programme and registration
deadlines.

For further information, please write or call:

Norges Speiderforbund
Ovre Vollgate 9
0158 OSLO, Norway
Tel: 47 2 42 26 60
Fax: 47 2 42 07 04

----
I'll send out some more information when it's ready.

Johan.

-- 
Lars Johan Haavardtun                              | Email: johanl@protek.unit.no
Division of Production Engineering                 | Phone: +47 7593808
University of Trondheim, Rich. Birkelandsvei 2 b   | Fax  : +47 7597117
N-7034 TRONDHEIM                                   | Telex: 
Newsgroups: rec.scouting,alt.discrimination,chi.general,alt.atheism,alt.politics.homosexuality
From: hill@rtsg.mot.com (Karen Hill)
Subject: Re: BofA and UW can now support discrimination against blacks and Jews
Organization: Motorola Inc., Cellular Infrastructure Group
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 18:40:55 GMT

kutem@turtle1.Berkeley.EDU (Jon Kutemeier) writes:

>First of all, I'd like to see any quantitative analysis that proves that
>homosexuality is a learned behavior. If it is learned, and most gays and
>lesbians grow up in a straight family or environment, then where did they
>learn it from (and don't tell me that they were "molested" by some old
>man down the street, it just doesn't wash)?

On the other side of the coin, I'd like see quantitative analysis that
proves that it is not a learned behavior. There are lots of influences in
our society.  If anyone with low self-esteem and low self-worth manages to
find a person or group that will make him feel important and powerful, that
person will gravitate toward the other person or group and tend to follow
those practices that raise his ense of worth in the eyes of the others.

>Finally, Get off your high horse. Who are you to judge a person's humanity?

I'm not judging anyone. I'm saying that everyone should be treated with
justice and dignity based on their humanity and nothing else. 

-Karen Hill
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: edelheit@smiley.mitre.org (Jeff Edelheit)
Subject: What's the role of the Pack Committee Chair vs. Cubmaster
Organization: The MITRE Corporation, McLean, VA
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 13:39:21 GMT

I am curious how different packs split the work between the committee
chair and the cubmaster.  I was just "promoted" to cubmaster, and the
formerly ineffective cubmaster has moved into committee chair as a
"temporary".  

My first concern is to rebuild pack leadership.  This is especially
important as the pack has not recovered from the loss of the old pack
leadership of 1.5 yrs ago and I'll be moving up to Boy Scouts in
March.  I'd hate to see the pack fall apart.

Jeff Edelheit		email:  edelheit@mitre.org
The MITRE Corporation	voice:  (703) 883-7586
7525 Colshire Drive	FAX:	(703) 883-1397
McLean, VA   22102
Xref: sparky rec.scouting:2759 alt.discrimination:4082 chi.general:932 alt.atheism:16366 alt.politics.homosexuality:5634
From: mycroft@hal.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Charles Hannum)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting,alt.discrimination,chi.general,alt.atheism,alt.politics.homosexuality
Subject: Re: BofA and UW can now support discrimination against blacks and Jews
Date: 28 Aug 92 08:58:05 GMT
Organization: /etc/organization


In article <1992Aug24.214806.819@rtsg.mot.com> yorton@rtsg.mot.com
writes:
>
> Thirty years ago there would have been people saying that a black
> man would not have made a good role model.  Why?  Because of bigotry.
> And that is *learned* behavior.

How can one assert that sexual orientation is predetermined, but
bigotry is learned?  What's the conceptual difference?  They are both
forms of discrimination, one accepted, the other not.

-- 
 \   Charles Hannum, mycroft@ai.mit.edu
 /\  White heterosexual atheist male (WHAM) pride!
Newsgroups: rec.scouting,alt.discrimination,chi.general,alt.atheism,alt.politics.homosexuality
From: hill@rtsg.mot.com (Karen Hill)
Subject: Re: BofA and UW can now support discrimination against blacks and Jews
Organization: Motorola Inc., Cellular Infrastructure Group
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 19:37:56 GMT

yorton@turtle11.rtsg.mot.com (James J. Yorton) writes:

>Not really.  If the scout leader is *forced out* because of, say his
>minority status, that's a form of discrimination.  Parents have every
>right to have their child associate with whom (or without whom) they wish.
>If they don't like their child to have a gay scout leader and they
>decide to pull that child out of that troop, how is that discimination?
>They're pulling the child out *voluntarily*.  I'll use an example I used
>before: Thirty some years ago, some parents wouldn't have wanted their
>child to be near a scout leader who was African American.  Who should leave?

So the scout leader's rights are more important than the scouts rights because
he is a leader or because he is an adult or because he is gay and supposedly a
minority now?

>C'mon, it's the same as the military ban.  It is said that some people
>would have trouble working/living in close quarters with gay soldiers.
>(Years ago the same argument was used with blacks too.)
>Should we boot out that soldier, despite their outstanding service
>record and contribution to this country, or should the person who
>is homophobic or racist leave or be reassigned?

Does being homosexual exclude one from obeying the rules and adhering to
the standards of the organization to which they have chosen to belong?

>This whole thing could be solved if the individual who is prejudiced
>would find out why they harbor those feelings with regards to
>something that is really nobody's business.  Then nobody would have
>to leave.

If it's nobody's business, then why is there such a huge gay/lesbian movement
and why is there a gay rights agenda and why are their "rights" to behave as
they please being forced on society. If it's nobody's business, then 
it should not even be an issue. 

>Whether it's racism, sexism, anti-Semitism, or homophobia,
>bigotry is bigotry no matter how you slice it.  It is a
>learned behavior and it can be unlearned.

Certainly true. Any behavior can be learned or unlearned. Homosexuality is
a behavior and can be unlearned as well as learned. 

Let us not forget that what the gay/lesbian movement is asking is for
rights based on their behavior and not their humanity.

-Karen Hill
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: philipla@microsoft.com (Phil Lafornara)
Subject: Re: Okay, rec.scouting take two...
Date: 31 Aug 92 18:34:19 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corporation

In article <1992Aug30.214203.14552@bernina.ethz.ch> macman@bernina.ethz.ch (Danny Schwendener) writes:
>
>I suggest splitting the group into rec.scouting.policy (which should
>cover all national and international policies of the different scouting
>associations) and rec.scouting.wisdom, where more "technical"
>information can be exchanged. 

     The former suggestion seems reasonable to me - the name is
clear and fairly unambiguous.  The second, though, has a connotation
that I'm not comfortable with - specifically, that everything posted
to rec.scouting.policy is somehow not "wisdom".
     Why not just create rec.scouting.policy and leave the current
newsgroup for the miscellany?

					-Phil

-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Phil Lafornara         				1 Microsoft Way         
philipla@microsoft.com				Redmond, WA 98052-6399 
Note:  Microsoft doesn't even _know_ that these are my opinions. So there.
Newsgroups: rec.scouting,alt.discrimination,chi.general,alt.atheism,alt.politics.homosexuality
From: mccalley@rtsg.mot.com (Phil McCalley)
Subject: Re: BofA and UW can now support discrimination against blacks and Jews
Organization: Motorola Inc., Cellular Infrastructure Group
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 21:48:55 GMT

hill@rtsg.mot.com (Karen Hill) writes:

>kutem@turtle1.Berkeley.EDU (Jon Kutemeier) writes:

>>First of all, I'd like to see any quantitative analysis that proves that
>>homosexuality is a learned behavior. If it is learned, and most gays and
>>lesbians grow up in a straight family or environment, then where did they
>>learn it from (and don't tell me that they were "molested" by some old
>>man down the street, it just doesn't wash)?

>On the other side of the coin, I'd like see quantitative analysis that
>proves that it is not a learned behavior. There are lots of influences in
>our society.  If anyone with low self-esteem and low self-worth manages to
>find a person or group that will make him feel important and powerful, that
>person will gravitate toward the other person or group and tend to follow
>those practices that raise his ense of worth in the eyes of the others.


On the issue of whether or not it is learned, it seems to me that it must
be.  Surely if it was genetic, it would have deselected itself along time
ago.  It would be some trick for them to reproduce.  Unfortunately for 
them, AIDS is deselecting them anyway.  Sad, but true.
-- 
....................................................... Phil McCalley
From: mwilson@orl.mmc.com (Mark Wilson)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: What's the role of the Pack Committee C
Date: 1 Sep 92 14:01:40 GMT
Reply-To: mwilson@orl.mmc.com
Organization: Martin Marietta Orlando

In article 25518@nmrdc1.nmrdc.nnmc.navy.mil, rdc30@nmrdc1.nmrdc.nnmc.navy.mil (LCDR Michael E. Dobson) writes:
>One thing I've always been taught in Leaders Training is that the Cubmaster
>and Den Leaders work for the Committee and thus the Committee Chairman is
>probably the most important position in the Pack. 

The most important members in the pack are the boys. I believe, and teach, that
the most important leadership positions in the Pack are the Den Leaders since
they have more direct contact with the boys. This is not to belittle the 
contributions of the other leaders. Effective pack leadership is a team effort
and there should be more than enough work and recognition to go around. We just 
need to remember that the focus needs to be on the boy. The first line on any Pack
job description should be: "Assist the Den Leaders and Cubmaster in presenting
the Cub program to the boys."

BTW, The first line for District, Council, Regional and National positions 
should read: "Assist the unit leaders in presenting the Scouting program to the 
boys." I don't know if that's the way it really reads, but it should. It seems
that Scouters at these levels somtimes get caught up in a 'chain of command'
thing and lose sight of the objective of the movement.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Mark Wilson 
Eagle Class of 1974
SM, Troop 565, Deltona, FL
Newsgroups: rec.scouting,alt.discrimination,chi.general,alt.atheism,alt.politics.homosexuality
From: ecl@cbnewsj.cb.att.com (Evelyn C. Leeper)
Subject: Re: BofA and UW can now support discrimination against blacks and Jews
Organization: AT&T
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 15:32:06 GMT

Using simple substitution on Stan Krieger's remarks, I get:

This equating of practicing Judaism with legitimate minority groups is by
no means a "fact", but rather is simply part of the Zionist rights agenda
(and like everything else about this discussion, this has also been
said already).  Unlike legitimate minorities, a person's religious
behavior, as well as such other anti-societal behavior such as
commune living, drug usage, or other cult membership, is a
person's choice.  A person whose ancestors are from Japan or
Africa didn't have a choice.

I think I speak for a number of parents who feel, plain and simple,
that we would be totally derelict in our responsibilities if we allow
any adult in a position of leadership over our children to express or
imply, in any way, that deviant non-Christian religious behavior (as defined
by our society's standards) is "acceptable" or "proper" if that's the way
the child "feels".  Despite our best efforts as parents, it may happen
that our children do choose a non-Christian, religiously deviant lifestyle,
or some other abhorent lifestyle (such as entering into a marriage that's
forbidden by the child's religion), but under no circumstances will I allow
any adult leader to give any sort of impression to my children that
such a lifestyle is "ok".  This is the bottom line of this BSA issue,
and I'm very sorry that it conflicts with the Zionist rights agenda, but
I'm also sure it conflicts with the ADL agenda and with the agenda
of religious proseletyzers; so what?

(end of substitution)

Would someone like to explain how this differs in any logical fashion
from Stan's argument?  It's clearly as persuasive--millions died from
such rhetoric, and Jews above all others should recognize it as the
hate-mongering that it is.

I'm sorry, Stan, but there are already many adult leaders--not in the
BSA, perhaps, but in life--who give the impression that a "gay
lifestyle" is okay, and far better than preaching hate and exclusion.
No, I take that back--I'm not sorry.  I thank God that there are people
like that whose lives prove you wrong.

Evelyn C. Leeper  |  +1 908 957 2070  |  att!mtgzy!ecl or  ecl@mtgzy.att.com
--
"IQ describes how big your gas tank is, but it doesn't tell if you're
running on empty." -- Harvey Newstrom (hnewstro@x102c.ess.harris.com)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: dadams@cray.com (David Adams)
Subject: Re: What's the use in having this group???
Reply-To: dadams@cray.com
Organization: Cray Research, Inc.
Date: 28 Aug 92 12:22:08 CDT

In article 7915@maths.tcd.ie, pmoloney@maths.tcd.ie (Paul Moloney) writes:
|wjh0265@tamsun.tamu.edu (William Hobson) writes:
|
|>Funny that Carl Kadie would be the first to reply to my post - He's #1 on my
|>KILL file!!!
|
|Not a very good KILL file you have there, is it?
|
|P.

KILL file doesn't stop email.

---
--David C. Adams    dadams@cray.com
___________________________________________________________________
       member--Minnesotans for Global Warming.

Xref: sparky rec.scouting:2664 soc.motss:37438