HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: roholdr@ccu.umanitoba.ca (R Ross Holder Jr)
Subject: Re: The Bible - why oh why?
Organization: University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Canada
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 17:43:13 GMT

In <BruKKJ.GAF@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> joshua salter <jsalter@silver.ucs.indiana.edu> writes:


>	Attention all christian flamers: It's just a book. A good book, yes.
>Fun to read. (I liked Lord of the Rings better, though; Sauron is much niftier
>than Satan). The answer to why you exist, and why nature works like it does
>cannot be found in a book written by people. Christ was a person, (if he
>actually existed), not some Godson. How do I know this? Because if Christ was
>the son of God, & the Bible was written by him, (or from his teachings), &
>God is perfect, (always right), - than the sun and everything else goes around th
>the earth.
>(Don't ask how do you know or request quotes, because I haven't got
>the exact reference and it is in there.)

Hmmmm...sounds to me like you're asking me to have faith in that it's there.
;-)

					 Listen, people! Life is scary, it is
>the human condition to question every precept of their existance, most of you
>were raised christian and have deeply ingrained LEARNED beliefs, but you can
>overcome them.

Oh good Lord.  What?  Do you think we just sit here complacently believing
anything and everything a priest/minister/clergyman has to say?  Of course
it's human nature to question - and it has been common to question in
Christian churches ever since Martin Luther.  I have difficulty with simple
faith in God's existance myself, sometimes.

		 Christianity is a crutch, a useful one, but it is only for
>giving hope to the otherwise hopeless, and righteousness to the insecure. 
>The Bible says that the meek shall inherit the earth, well that says something
>about the people who wrote it.

Yes.  It says they were writing an inspired prophecy - no, not that they were
politically ambitious.

				 Give up your crutches, embrace science &
>philosophy. And if you won't, or can't, assume for 1 minute that God is dead.
>That is the least you can do, for the cause of logic & reason, the true tools
>of humanity.

Ironically, I don't think God could agree more with the last part this remark.

 ---------------------------------------------------------------
|R. Ross Holder, Jr.             | Home Address:                |
|(roholdr@ccu.umanitoba.ca)	 | 410-424 River Avenue         |
|Department of Philosophy	 | Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada   |
|The University of Manitoba	 | R3L 0C6   PH#: (204) 478-1744|
 ---------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: alt.satanism
From: gnaftuly@mail1.cis.umn.edu (Gene Naftulyev)
Subject: Re: Are there any real Satanists on here?
Organization: University of Minnesota
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1992 17:40:00 GMT

Well I thank all of the people that DID reply to my question about satanism...
and I agree, it seems that there is no one single agreed upon definition...

However I have also received some messages that are less than cordial...

First I is a quote from a message I received in email, I will not identify
the person since he did use email, however he said the following...
___________________________________________________________________
am I going to make an attempt to answer your question.  Here is my
advice, wait a month, then just read the group for a while and KEEP
YOUR DAMN KEYBOARD QUIET UNTIL YOU CAN ASK AN INTELLIGENT QUESTION.
___________________________________________________________________

Now I don't know about this group, maybe you have rules other than the rest
of internet, but it seems to me that asking a question that is central to the
topic of a news group is the MOST appropriate question for that news group..

If on alt.fan.howard.stern I ask "who is howard stern?" I would probably be 
flamed for not knowing a little, but I would get a reply... the same on just
about any other group... when someone sends email and says I woun't answer
your question and furthermore shut up and don't bother me, I would hope that
that person is not a representation of the news group as a whole... (at least
intellectually speaking)

also Reuben Radding sis the following,


Anyway, we don't owe you an explanation.


--
================================================================
|  Reuben Radding         rdr@panix.com       cmcl2!panix!rdr  |


Well, certainly not, however it is awfully boring to have a newsgroup and NOT
talk about it...especially for someone who just joined in... hey I am a 
pagan, a fellow heathen if you will, and you treat me worse then most Xtinas...

Well anyway, tanx to thouse that did have intelligent answers...

Newsgroups: alt.satanism
From: rdr@panix.com (Reuben Radding)
Subject: Re: xians here
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1992 03:12:51 GMT
Organization: Disorganization Datorganization

In <1992Jul24.040021.13124@njitgw.njit.edu> rhr9081@hertz.njit.edu (Ray Rich) writes:


>	Well, since discussion seems to have gotten around to whether or not
>to allow xians here, I must cast a vote for YES.  My reasons are as follows:
>	1) Breaks up the usual "My Satanism is better than yours, naah naah
>naah" debates.
>	2) We don't want to stoop to their level and censor dissenting views.
>	3) They make us look good.

>	Remember, this newsgroup is frequented by non-Satanists.  Our own
>resident christian soldier, evan marshall, has done more to make Satanism look
>good than I ever could.  I find that the xians that do frequent here help us
>to reinforce our points against christianity.
>	They are predominantly closed-minded, bigoted individuals.  While they
>may or may not be representative of the norm, they go a long way towards making
>the Satanist arguments valid.

>					Raymond H. Rich
>					"And I saw a path to Hell,
>					 Even from the gates of heaven..."


Well, I've already stated my case here, but I'll just say that
I see no purpose in exhaustively arguing with xtians. Who are
you hoping to convince Ray? If our arguments are valid they are
so without any assault from xtians like Evan. If our ideas don't
stand on their own independantly (I know mine do) then what the hell good
are they? 

You are of course free to waste your time with them, but I won't
do it, having spent long hours doing just that for too long.
A little encouragement goes a LONG way with these oafs, 
and if we continue to be baited into pointless discussion
of THEIR philosophy, not OURS, then this newsgroup will become
merely a xtian playground. Perhaps it's time I started that mailing
list?

--Reuben

 
-- 
================================================================
|  Reuben Radding         rdr@panix.com       cmcl2!panix!rdr  |
|==============================================================|
| ******************* Marrou / Lord in 1992 ****************** | 
Newsgroups: alt.satanism
From: merlyn@digibd.com (Merlyn LeRoy)
Subject: Re: Sin but still go to heaven?
Organization: DigiBoard Incorporated, Eden Prairie, MN
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 06:56:20 GMT

marshall1198@iscsvax.uni.edu writes:
>How are you sure that there is no God?  Do you have evidence to support your
>viewpoint?  Obviously, the Bible is not fiction.  It gives accurate accounts of
>civilizations from the past.

It also has people rising from the dead and walking on water.

If accurate mentions of other civilizations are your criterion,
does this mean you think other ancient writings that mention
real places & events is real?  I'm thinking of various Egyptian
writings that thanks their gods for winning battles & so forth.
Egypt really existed, they really won these battles, so their
gods must exist too, right?

---
Merlyn LeRoy
Newsgroups: alt.satanism
From: kaide@cayley.waterloo.edu (Kevin D. G. Aide)
Subject: Re: Sin but still go to heaven?
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 21:19:53 GMT

In article <1992Jul21.002923.25154@shearson.com> pmetzger@snark.shearson.com (Perry E. Metzger) writes:
>In article <1992Jul20.101623.5676@iscsvax.uni.edu> marshall1198@iscsvax.uni.edu writes:
>>
>>Read the Bible that God the Almighty inspired.
>>
>
>There don't seem to be any that god inspired. Given the fact that
                                                         ^^^^
>there is no god, why should I treat the bible as anything else other

>than a work of fiction, no more interesting than the Koran, the

>Bagivad Gita, The Lord of the Rings, or any other similar work of

>fiction?
>
>

Who has proven this to be a fact?
Newsgroups: alt.satanism
Subject: RE: LOST IN THE BIBLE
From: cse0935@desire.wright.edu
Date: 25 Jul 92 20:58:04 EST
Organization: Wright State University 

THE LOST BOOKS OF THE BIBLE , I HAVE HEARD THIS CALLED THE "NAG HAMMADHI
LIBRARY". THE REASON FOR THE LOSS OF THESE WRITINGS LIKE THE GOSPEL OF THOMAS
AND THE GOSPEL OF MARY MAGDELENE WAS PRIMARILY BECAUSE THE EARLY XTIAN FATHERS 
WANTED TO SUPPRESS THE IDEAS OF THE AGNOSTICS, A GROUP THAT HELD DIVERGENT
IDEAS. THIS IS ABOUT ALL I CAN ADD TO THE DISCUSSION. I AM CERTAIN THAT OTHERS
SHARE DIFFERENT OPINIONS.
CSE DANIEL (HE WHO SPEAKS IN ALL CAPS)

Newsgroups: alt.satanism
From: locklin@henry.ece.cmu.edu (Scott Locklin)
Subject: Re: xians here
Organization: Electrical and Computer Engineering, Carnegie Mellon
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 03:07:41 GMT


They try to save the soul, we try to save the mind... Its like trying to
convince an astrologer in sumeria that the sun is the center of our solar-
system and the earth is a ball hurtling through the void...

Do you realize that lots of these born-again xtians believe that the earth was
created 6000 years ago??!! I had an Electrical engineering (student) roomie
who was born-again actually believes this!!! This is an "educated" guy!!!
The depth of their ignorance astounds me...

"the world is in a nightmare from which it is desperately trying to awaken"-
Siddhartha (sp?) buddah

-Scott
From: moon!cyberden!impmat@well.sf.ca.us
Newsgroups: alt.satanism
Subject: Satan
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 92 23:56:19 PDT
Organization: Indescribable Creations

All Satanists are Christians.  All Satanists believe in a higher power.  
Most Satanists are painfully conventional and uninteresting.  I am not a 
Christian.  Therefore I can't be a Satanist.  In order to be a Satanist 
you must believe in God.  For the most part people who can allow 
themselves to believe in God are boring and conventional.  This is why 
most Satanists are boring and predictable.  People who believe in Social 
Darwinism are not neccessarily Satanists.  They tend to be a little more 
interesting than Satanists(Christians).  Good Night.

__________________________________________________________________________
   |       /         |\
   | H E   \ Y B E R |/ E N       [ moon!cyberden!impmat@well.sf.ca.us ]
From: marshall1198@iscsvax.uni.edu
Newsgroups: alt.satanism
Subject: Re: Sin but still go to heaven?
Date: 21 Jul 92 10:14:04 -0500
Organization: University of Northern Iowa

In article <1992Jul21.002923.25154@shearson.com>, pmetzger@snark.shearson.com (Perry E. Metzger) writes:
> In article <1992Jul20.101623.5676@iscsvax.uni.edu> marshall1198@iscsvax.uni.edu writes:
>>
>>Read the Bible that God the Almighty inspired.
>>
> 
> There don't seem to be any that god inspired. Given the fact that
> there is no god, why should I treat the bible as anything else other
> than a work of fiction, no more interesting than the Koran, the
> Bagivad Gita, The Lord of the Rings, or any other similar work of
> fiction?

How are you sure that there is no God?  Do you have evidence to support your
viewpoint?  Obviously, the Bible is not fiction.  It gives accurate accounts of
civilizations from the past.  There is more proof in your average library to
prove the existance of Christ than there is to prove the existance of Abe
Lincoln.
> 
>>Your heart is hardened.
> 
> And your reason isn't functioning. Soon, however, nanotechnology will
> make clearing out athrosclerotic plaques a routine medical procedure.
> Restoring reason to a mind, however, is not something they will be
> able to do for you. I'm afraid you'll have to suffer indefinately.
> 
Are you sure that your's is?  What's to say that you just haven't looked into
it.  Just denying the existance of God doesn't make Him not real.  I can deny
that you exist, but in truth you do.  If you are sure that there is no God,
then why do you go through so much trouble to look in newsgroups about
spirituality?

> 
> --
> Perry Metzger		pmetzger@shearson.com
> --
> 		  Just say "NO!" to death and taxes.
> 			 Extropian and Proud.

* Evan Marshall
* marshall1198@iscsvax.uni.edu

Newsgroups: alt.satanism
From: pmetzger@snark.shearson.com (Perry E. Metzger)
Subject: Re: QUESTIONS
Organization: /usr/local/lib/news/organization
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 22:14:30 GMT

In article <1992Jul23.122444.5752@iscsvax.uni.edu> marshall1198@iscsvax.uni.edu writes:
>I have many questions now.  First which is WHY?  Why have you forsaken,
>not-followed, or not cared to think about --- God?

Because he doesn't exist. Given that he doesn't exist, its not any
more possible to forsake him than it is to forsake the easter bunny.

--
Perry Metzger		pmetzger@shearson.com
--
		  Just say "NO!" to death and taxes.
			 Extropian and Proud.
From: timf@microsoft.com (Tim Fleehart)
Subject: 'scuse me
Date: 23 Jul 92 16:45:35 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corporation

'scuse me, but did I wander into a christain newsgroup by mistake?

What's all this crap about chist doing in this newsgroup?

Tim
Newsgroups: alt.satanism
From: rdr@panix.com (Reuben Radding)
Subject: Re: Lavey's Book - Information Wanted
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 05:17:16 GMT
Organization: Disorganization Datorganization

In <Bs2JA2.H2s@casper.cs.uct.ac.za> ibarrett@casper.cs.uct.ac.za (I G Barrett) writes:

>I was wondering if Lavey's book or something similar (perhaps a list of the
>beliefs/ideas stated therein) was available in electronic form.  As far as 	I'm aware The Satanic Bible is still banned in this country and I'm a little
>wary about ordering a copy from the publisher.  Does anyone know what goes
>on the outside of a package from a publisher, i.e. does it have full details
>about what book is contained therein?



If you order your copy from the publisher, AVON BOOKS, I am certain
there will be no information on the outside of the package other than
the statement: "BOOKS." Is the Satanic Bible the subject of an actual
legal ban or is it merely shunned? And what country is this you're in?

And, no, the Satanic Bible is not currently available in electronic form.
AVON has the exclusive rights to publishing it, in any form.

--Reuben

 
 
-- 
================================================================
|  Reuben Radding         rdr@panix.com       cmcl2!panix!rdr  |
|==============================================================|
| ******************* Marrou / Lord in 1992 ****************** | 
Newsgroups: alt.satanism
From: hoagy@ais.org (Matthew Rupert)
Subject: Re: THIS NEWSGROUP
Organization: Kampus Krusade for Kush
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 22:00:52 GMT

marshall1198@iscsvax.uni.edu did speak previously, and did say thus:
>It seems that before this flaming discussion on God in this newsgroup, there
>was nothing but stupid and moronic postings.  (Hence why someone asked if there
>were any real satanists out there.  And look, there are...now.)  If the goal of
>satanism was to be as stupid as possible, then why go through the trouble of
>creating a newsgroup?  Obviously, there were some deeper things to be discussed
>here than someones sexual fantasies, etc...  Satanism does involve
[snip]

Yea yeah yeah...we said this numerous times...everytime we go to
the xian newsgroups, we get CENSORED and REPRIMANDED because our
viewpoints don't agree with the "holier-than-thou" attitude displayed
over there.  We're asking that we not have "god is here - no he's not"
debate here  If you cannot input on the topic of satanism without the
"you're gonna burn in hell!" crap, kindly don't do it.

So, if all the xians here cannot abide by this simple request from all
of us who are not xian, kindly don't comment. I wouldn't mind xseeing
this group moderated, so you may feel the other side of being censored.

But, I've never known anyone to say xians are not anti-censorship.
Newsgroups: alt.satanism
From: pmetzger@snark.shearson.com (Perry E. Metzger)
Subject: Re: Sin but still go to heaven?
Organization: /usr/local/lib/news/organization
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 22:21:03 GMT

In article <1992Jul21.101404.5707@iscsvax.uni.edu> marshall1198@iscsvax.uni.edu writes:
>In article <1992Jul21.002923.25154@shearson.com>, pmetzger@snark.shearson.com (Perry E. Metzger) writes:
>> In article <1992Jul20.101623.5676@iscsvax.uni.edu> marshall1198@iscsvax.uni.edu writes:
>>>
>>>Read the Bible that God the Almighty inspired.
>>>
>> 
>> There don't seem to be any that god inspired. Given the fact that
>> there is no god, why should I treat the bible as anything else other
>> than a work of fiction, no more interesting than the Koran, the
>> Bagivad Gita, The Lord of the Rings, or any other similar work of
>> fiction?
>
>How are you sure that there is no God?  Do you have evidence to support your
>viewpoint?

Don't we have things a bit backwards here? You're the one who can't
prove anything and has a burden of proof present. Do you have proof
that there is no 12 foot tall purple bunny rabbit behind you that
disappears whenever you turn your head? No? Then why don't you believe
in the purple rabbit?

>Obviously, the Bible is not fiction.  It gives accurate accounts of
>civilizations from the past.  There is more proof in your average library to
>prove the existance of Christ than there is to prove the existance of Abe
>Lincoln.

Find me some. ANY evidence to support the existance of christ. Go
right ahead. Find me a single historical account of his life by a
contemporary primary source outside the bible. Find me one single
contemporary Roman historian who mentions him. Contemporary, mind you.
No accounts based on third hand reports from 150 years later. I know
of one, a letter from a Roman, who mentions, obliquely, a sect that
had an executed leader of the right name; fairly weak evidence.
I defy you to find anything better whatsoever.

The bible is NOT history.

>Are you sure that your's is?  What's to say that you just haven't looked into
>it.  Just denying the existance of God doesn't make Him not real.  I can deny
>that you exist, but in truth you do.

>If you are sure that there is no God,
>then why do you go through so much trouble to look in newsgroups about
>spirituality?

I don't go through much trouble. Once in a while I find it amusing to
debate with the odd fool, so I do it. However, there isn't any god.
--
Perry Metzger		pmetzger@shearson.com
--
		  Just say "NO!" to death and taxes.
			 Extropian and Proud.
Newsgroups: alt.satanism
From: bp822@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Laura Bost)
Subject: RE: LOST IN THE BIBLE
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio, (USA)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 92 03:46:16 GMT


There is also a book you can find in most bookstores (or request
a special order) called _The Books of Eden_ (or something close),
which includes the previously quoted non-canonical stories.  I
don't remember whether it includes the story of how Biblical
canon came to be - but that's what libraries are good for.
From: roholdr@ccu.umanitoba.ca (R Ross Holder Jr)
Newsgroups: alt.satanism
Subject: Re: Lost Books of the Bible
Date: 24 Jul 92 17:26:36 GMT
Organization: University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Canada

In <1992Jul24.040610.14955@njitgw.njit.edu> rhr9081@hertz.njit.edu (Ray Rich) writes:


>	While this techinically may belong in another newsgroup, I thought
>I'd try my luck here.  Has anyone read it and do you recommend it.  I've 
>heard a few excerpts from it, and think that if what is contained therein is
>true or at least supported by some historical reference, it may be of great
>interest to Satanists.
>	Included within (from what I've heard):
>	
>	- A passage where Jesus, playing on the Sabbath, creates clay figures
>	  which he proceeds to bring to life.  A fellow child tells him that
>	  it isn't right to do that and jc proceeds to kill him.

This is a slightly different version of the story from a Christian pseudo-
gospel that was told me by a Lutheran minister many moons ago.  In it,
Christ, while in school, was part of a class instructed to create clay
pigeons.  Another child approached Christ and confidently declared that his
pigeon was better.  It was here that Christ caused his pigeons to come to
life.

>	- A passage where jc is walking with joseph when a young boy accident-
>	  ally runs into him and knocks him down.  "As thou hast laid me down,
>	  so shalt thou fall," jc says, "nor to ever rise."  And the boy falls
>	  down dead.
>	- Info on who ordered what portions to be stricken from subsequent
>	  versions of the bible and why.

I have no information about these.  They certainly don't sound very Christ-
like, though, do they?

 ---------------------------------------------------------------
|R. Ross Holder, Jr.             | Home Address:                |
|(roholdr@ccu.umanitoba.ca)	 | 410-424 River Avenue         |
|Department of Philosophy	 | Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada   |
|The University of Manitoba	 | R3L 0C6   PH#: (204) 478-1744|
 ---------------------------------------------------------------
From: pmetzger@snark.shearson.com (Perry E. Metzger)
Subject: Re: Sin but still go to heaven?
Organization: /usr/local/lib/news/organization
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 22:22:24 GMT

In article <BrrCL5.BAK@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu> kaide@cayley.waterloo.edu (Kevin D. G. Aide) writes:
>In article <1992Jul21.002923.25154@shearson.com> pmetzger@snark.shearson.com (Perry E. Metzger) writes:
>>In article <1992Jul20.101623.5676@iscsvax.uni.edu> marshall1198@iscsvax.uni.edu writes:
>>>
>>>Read the Bible that God the Almighty inspired.
>>>
>>
>>There don't seem to be any that god inspired. Given the fact that
>                                                         ^^^^
>>there is no god, why should I treat the bible as anything else other
>
>Who has proven this to be a fact?

Got any counterevidence? A lick of evidence (outside of the bible,
which is just a work of men and which is at least partially fiction)
for the existance of God?

--
Perry Metzger		pmetzger@shearson.com
--
		  Just say "NO!" to death and taxes.
			 Extropian and Proud.
Newsgroups: alt.satanism