HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jvte@cs.few.eur.nl (Jan van 't Ent)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Vernor Vinge's new book...
Date: 21 Jan 93 16:47:00 GMT
Organization: Erasmus Universiteit Rotterdam

[_A Fire Upon the Deep_]
levine@symcom.math.uiuc.edu (Lenore Levine) writes:
 >...just came out in paperback; and I really enjoyed reading it.
Yes, me too. The setting is very promising for more stories, which
need not tie in very closely (so to speculate a little: for possible
new books it shouldn't be necessary to read all the previous stuff).
I also liked the various mixing and non-mixing aliens, and the 
general mix of technical SF versus good characters Vernor achieved.

 >P.S. Notice how well he's captured the flavor of the Net? I'm sure
 >that "Death to Vermin" guy's posted here before :-) . 
Yeah, well, on the one hand I liked it ... it was easily recognizable
(although I wouldn't know how non-net-users think about those postings),
but on the other hand I found it all too simple-sounding for such a
highly developed civilisation ... so it was both nice to read, and
irritating at the same time :-)

<Jan>
vantent@CVX.eur.nl - Erasmus Universiteit Rotterdam - Netherlands
From: mwd3@po.CWRU.Edu (Matthew W. Dempsey)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Memory,Sorrow and Thorn
Date: 24 Jan 1993 06:37:17 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: mwd3@po.CWRU.Edu (Matthew W. Dempsey)
NNTP-Posting-Host: thor.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, JeffS@cup.portal.com (Jeffrey K Seidel) says:

>Hi,
>   I've been reading this series by Tad Williams but things seem
>to have come to a halt since 'The Stone of Farewell'. Does anyone
>have any information on it? Did something happen to Tad Williams?
>I really enjoyed this series but book 3 has been a long time
>coming (Walden Books says they have no info on a release date
>and no title listed as an upcoming release). Any info would be
>appreciated.
>                                         JeffS
>

   The next book, To Green Angel Tower, will probably be out in March. 
Rumor has it the manuscript was over 1600 pages long.
-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Meddle not in the affairs of wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger.
From: mjw@ocf.berkeley.edu (Marshall Wang)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Aes Sedai (VERY LONG!)
Date: 27 Jan 1993 08:35:57 GMT
Organization: U.C. Berkeley Open Computing Facility
NNTP-Posting-Host: maelstrom.berkeley.edu
Keywords: Sedai, Templar, Masonry, Should be doing Work.  Must Study

In article <1993Jan27.012413.18616@cc.gatech.edu> erica@cc.gatech.edu (Erica Liebman Sadun) writes:

>* Will those damn bracelets dropped into the ocean be used next on PERRIN?

	I don't think this is possible.  True, the bracelets probably won't
be dropped into the ocean, but it won't be used on Perrin.  If I remember
correctly, it could only be used on a man who can channel.  Chances are 
that it'll be used on the other False Dragon who had escaped

>      Once the Dragon for remembrance lost. : Normal Going through Rhuidean
>      Twice the Dragon for the price he must pay. : His second dragon forearm

	Egwene had dreamed insect-sized dragons settling onto Rand's skin.
Does that corresponds to Rhuidean?  If it does, what is "the price he must
pay"?  Maybe he'll be marked yet again.

>      Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed. :Beats me

	I think there will be an eclipse on the day of the final battle:
The sun disappears, turning the day into night, and then reappears.  Two
dawns in one day.

>* Does SUIAN SANCHE stays stilled, and does LOGAIN?
>* Will LOGAIN be the next to draw Callandar?

>      Who draws it out shall follow after, : Logain
>      What hand can grasp that fearful blade? : only another channeler.

	The problem with figuring out who's going to draw Callandor is that
there are a only two known male channelers, and since we're told that Logain
have glories to come, he's the naturally candidate.  But another thought
occurred to me the other day... 

	Some people on the net reported that Jordan wishes to do a sequel
of "The Wheel of Time" after this series is over, set in the same world but
in a different time.  It's possible that he'll let Callandor sit in the
Stone until the time of the sequel.  I can't see Jordan bringing in another
male Aes Sedai this late in the series, and the taint on the male side of
the Power could be removed by whenever the sequel is supposed to take place.
Rand already have the most powerful sa'angreal in his possession, so he
really doesn't need Callandor.  And if by some chance that it's destroyed
at the end of this series, that would leave only Callandor as the most
powerful sa'angreal in the world.

	Of course, if Jordan decides to do a prequel instead, then this
theory is shot to hell...

	BTW, with the Seanchan's Court of the Nine Moons and Rand's 
"binding the nine moons to serve him", does anyone know how many moons 
there are in the WoT universe?

						Marshall Wang
						mjw@ocf.berkeley.edu
From: phydeaux@guru.med.cornell.edu (Dave Weingart)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: writing Styles
Date: 22 Jan 1993 15:00:34 GMT
Organization: CUMC
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: guru.med.cornell.edu

In article <1993Jan21.162345.1@ulkyvx.louisville.edu>, mwhatt01@ulkyvx.louisville.edu writes:
|> I am curious as to what this groups opinions are concerning writing
|> styles.  Do you like a writer who as a very clear style so that
|> you don't even notice it.  Or do you prefer writing that is highly
|> stylized.  

As long as it's a good read, I don't particularly care (if the author
"gets in the way" it bothers me, but other times, a given style of
writing (say Cordwainer Smith) is part of the attraction (of course,
I use one of my favorites as an example).

-- 
73 de David Weingart  KB2CWF    In the event I am captured or killed, the
phydeaux@cumc.cornell.edu       Cornell University Medical College and the
phydeaux@guru.med.cornell.edu   Department of Academic Computing will disavow
phydeaux@src4src.linet.org      any knowledge of my opinions.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: bk@analytikerna.se (Bengt KLEBERG)
Subject: Re: Tolkien's (and Donaldson's) style (was
Reply-To: bk@analytikerna.se
Organization: Analytikerna AB, Stockholm, Sweden
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 15:19:21 GMT

I remember a quote at the back of the first Covenant novel. Something
like ~"Donaldson is compareable to Tolkin at his best"~ . I always took
that to mean 'when Donaldson is at his best he is compareable to
Tolkin'. But then I don't like Donaldson.

---

Bengt KLEBERG		bk@analytikerna.se



Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: frankj@ifi.uio.no (Frank Tore Johansen)
Subject: Re: Vernor Vinge's New Book...
Reply-To: frankj@ifi.uio.no
Organization: University of Oslo, Norway
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 02:09:29 GMT
Originator: frankj@dyggve.ifi.uio.no


In article <C1DAJC.6E7@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, levine@symcom.math.uiuc.edu (Lenore Levine) writes:
> For examples, Vinge's Beyond humans come from so far in the future that they
> are not members of any current race (and there are hints that their
> genes have been extensively edited). Is it reasonable that the language
> they speak would so resemble Norwegian, or indeed, any Indo-European
> language? And yet, having them use words from a real language, one
> related to English, but one not many of us are familiar with, does
> give this world a feeling of reality that names and words from an 
> invented language would not. 

Except if you're from Norway 8)

But I enjoyed the book immensly.

-Frank.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: darknite@camelot.bradley.edu (John S. Novak III)
Subject: Re: Forsaken (Re: Aes Sedai)
Organization: Bradley University
Date: 27 Jan 93 07:42:33 GMT

In <1993Jan26.182946.7477@sfu.ca> knott@sfu.ca (Dave Knott) writes:

>Ishamael  - Presumed dead (Highly unlikely).
>	    Supposedly killed by Rand in the Stone of Tear
>	    Real name: Beidomon
>	    AKA: Ba'alzamon?

Wasn't Ishamael also known as the Betrayer of Hope?
If so, his _real_ name was given, of all places, in the Prologue
to TEotW.  Elan Morin  Tedronai.

>Moghedien - Beaten up my Nynaeve in Tanchico.
>	    May have escaped by completely moving into Tel'aran'rhiod.
>	    Brigette mentions that she is the most powerful Forsaken in
>	    the world of dreams and it is supposed to be possible to move
>	    your entire physical body into there.

Of _COURSE_!
(Smacks self on pointy little head.)
That's how she escaped-- I seem to remember a refence to the
effect that dream-walking didn't require channeling anyway.

She may even be able to un-still herself there.  Who knows?

>Rahvin	  - In Caemlyn. High adviser and lover(?) to Queen Morgase.
>	    AKA: Gaebril

Do we know this for certain?

--
"Where's my skull?"
          -Robert A. Crawford, 11-04-91
John S. Novak, III		darknite@camelot.bradley.edu
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: steevesm@woods.ulowell.edu
Subject: Re: Aes Sedai
Organization: University of Lowell
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 13:27:03 GMT

In article <1993Jan24.180034.29913@netcom.com>, dani@netcom.com (Dani Zweig) writes:
> erica@cc.gatech.edu (Erica Liebman):
>>1. Rand, the dragon, is the son of the wife of the brother of the king
>>who is the father of Lan.
> 
> Um, no.  That's Isam.  The reason Rand's father let himself be killed
> is that Isam has merged with Lan, who *is* related.  Rand is the son
> of Tigraine, queen of Andor, by an Aiel.

Rand's mother was a memeber of Far Dareis Mei.  I don't think that it was
Tigraine (could be wrong, tho...) who was the outlander who came to the
Aiel.
 
>>2. He has a brother who is part cousin of lan and part bad-guy/forsaken.
> 
> Right, Lan/Isam.

Lan is the son of the last king of Malkier.  Isam is the son of the *brother*
of Lan's father.  Isam was lost when Malkier was overrun by the Trollocs when
he was just a baby.  His mother was a Darkfriend, so it is pretty clear
which side Isam will be on if he ever appears ('course, I could be wrong).
 
-darkelf
-----
"I have no brother, am like no brother;
 And this word "love", which the greybeards call divine,
 Be resident in men like one another
 And not in me.  I am myself alone."
	-Gloucester, Henry VI Pt. 3
-----
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: levine@symcom.math.uiuc.edu (Lenore Levine)
Subject: Re: Vernor Vinge's new book...
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 23:02:50 GMT

jvte@cs.few.eur.nl (Jan van 't Ent) writes:

>[_A Fire Upon the Deep_]
>levine@symcom.math.uiuc.edu (Lenore Levine) writes:
> >...just came out in paperback; and I really enjoyed reading it.
>Yes, me too. The setting is very promising for more stories, which
>need not tie in very closely (so to speculate a little: for possible
>new books it shouldn't be necessary to read all the previous stuff).

I know he did write a short story in that setting; at least, it featured
the tines. I wonder if anyone remembers where that short story was
printed?

Lenore Levine
From: kers@hplb.hpl.hp.com (Chris Dollin)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Tolkien's (and Donaldson's) style (was Re: writing Styles)
Date: 27 Jan 93 09:36:25 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Laboratories, Bristol, UK.

In article ... bk@analytikerna.se (Bengt KLEBERG) writes:

   I remember a quote at the back of the first Covenant novel. Something
   like ~"Donaldson is compareable to Tolkin at his best"~ . I always took
   that to mean 'when Donaldson is at his best he is compareable to
   Tolkin'. But then I don't like Donaldson.

A friend of mine (Richard Pinch, to be exact) remarked that Donaldson is
certainly *comparable* to Tolkien.

He's much worse.

(This is what you get for consorting with mathematicians.)


--

Regards | "Always code as if the guy who ends up maintaining your code will be
Kers.   | a violent psychopath who knows where you live." - John F. Woods
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: steevesm@woods.ulowell.edu
Subject: Re: Mat (was Aes Sedai)
Followup-To: rec.arts.sf.written
Organization: University of Lowell
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 12:56:30 GMT

In article <1993Jan26.150344.4723@lmpsbbs.comm.mot.com>,  (David Ingham) writes:
> 
> What I was trying to say (and not doing a very good job of it) was that
> IMHO, Mat is not really reincarnated from anyone.  Wasn't Shadar Logoth
> (sp?) created during the trolloc wars? If so, it seems that to break the
> daggers bound on Mat, he was taken back to that time (spiritually of
> course), and the tie was severed.  As a result he seems to have memories
> and abilities from that time.

Yes, but his memories seem to go back much further than that, back to when
the Old Tongue was the main language.
 
-darkelf
-----
"I have no brother, am like no brother;
 And this word "love", which the greybeards call divine,
 Be resident in men like one another
 And not in me.  I am myself alone."
	-Gloucester, Henry VI Pt. 3
-----
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: bobm@Ingres.COM (Bob McQueer)
Subject: Re: writing Styles
Date: 25 Jan 93 19:21:58 GMT

In <1jptnuINNi71@gap.caltech.edu>,
	dated 22 Jan 1993 22:50:38 GMT,
	ojvind@chagall.cns.caltech.edu (Ojvind Bernander) writes:
> In article <1993Jan21.162345.1@ulkyvx.louisville.edu> mwhatt01@ulkyvx.louisville.edu writes:
> >I am curious as to what this groups opinions are concerning writing
> >styles.  Do you like a writer who as a very clear style so that
> >you don't even notice it.  Or do you prefer writing that is highly
> >stylized.  
> ....
> 
> I definitely prefer straight prose that where the form doesn't obtrude
> into your consciousness and disturb your line of thought.  The writer
> that tries to show off his poetic skill often overdoes it and the
> writing becomes overwrought.  A good example of someone who treads
> a fine line is Simmons in Hyperion.

It is a very fine line indeed.  I would not like to go on record as liking
dull, plodding, factual, "prosaic" prose.  On the other hand, I find it
terrifically annoying when the style is calling attention to itself.  This
does not mean that I don't appreciate certain writers for their styles -
on the contrary, I find a well turned phrase something that brightens my
literary day.  Good writers use style to enhance the reader's experience,
to add color and texture to their creations, in some cases using quite
unusual styles effectively.  Bad writers sometimes adopt odd styles as a
crutch.  In the first case, I tend towards critical words like "evocative"
and "insightful".  In the second case, towards words like "self-aggrandizing",
"intrusive", and "flatulent".

But the line IS very thin, and placement of it ultimately subjective,
depending on whether it worked for a given reader or not.  I agree that it
works for Simmons (although "Fall of Hyperion" was a disappointment, IMHO).
To take two writers well known as stylists, I find that I liked Crowley's
"Little, Big", and disliked the first book of Wolfe's "New Sun" tetralogy
(since I disliked it, I've never read the second).  In the first case, style
greatly enhanced the work for me, and in the second, intruded.  But I
think other readers could reasonably dislike both works on the grounds of
intrusive style, find both terrifically expressive, or like Wolfe and
dislike Crowley.
From: blakeley@student.msu.EDU (Christopher Blakeley)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Alternates
Date: 21 Jan 93 22:29:33 GMT

Is it possible to introduce the topic of Alternative Universes, as compiled
masterfully by Gregory Benford?

Chris
Blakeley

blakeley@studentb.msu.edu
From: mvp@netcom.com (Mike Van Pelt)
Subject: Re: Niven/Pournelle, continued
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 22:37:31 GMT

In article <1993Jan21.172641.26215@lambda.msfc.nasa.gov> puckett@lambda.msfc.nasa.gov (Jim Puckett) writes:
>Wow! All these different Niven male/female disparity thingies going on, and
>nobody mentioned the Grendels ... _eat_ the males ...
...
>How'd all you Nivenphiles miss that one/ Or did I miss your not missing it?

I didn't think of them because I was thinking of Niven's sentient
aliens... Are grendels sentient?  This wasn't entirely clear, but
the seemed to be on the non-sentient side of the line, though
maybe pretty close to the line.
-- 
Mike Van Pelt          | What happens if a big asteroid hits Earth?
mvp@netcom.com         | Judging from realistic simulations involving a
                       | sledge hammer and a common laboratory frog, we
                       | can assume it will be pretty bad. -- Dave Barry
From: as232@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Michael Lerner)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Riverworld (Farmer)
Date: 23 Jan 1993 02:11:09 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


I recently completed the first Riverworld novel, _To their Scattered Bodies
Go_.  The whole concept is intriguing, but unfortunately, my local bookstores
tell me the rest of the series (Starting with _The Fabulous Riverboat_) are
out of print!  How can this be?  Anyway, I've heard rumors the story goes
downhill from book 1: is it worth tracking it down?  Does he ever reveal the
secrets of the Riverworld, and does the main character from book 1 ever
triumph? (Are any of the later books even centered around him?)

Mike
-- 
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: max@west.darkside.com (Erik Max Francis)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Niven/Pournelle, continued
Date: 24 Jan 93 21:01:24 GMT
Organization: The Dark Side of the Moon +1 408 245 SPAM

jjxxjj@mixcom.com (Tom Damm) writes:

> >The Salmon are male, but if they can avoid being eaten then they
>      ^^^^^^^
> I know it's just a typo, but I kept saying "Salmon" to myself as I
> read this.  "Samlon" always came across as "Salmon."

Heh.  I read _The Legacy of Hereot_ to my girlfriend (who enjoyed it 
immensely), and she continues to this day to mispronounce the word 
"salmon" as _samlon_.


Erik Max Francis  -)(-  ..!apple!uuwest!max  -)(-  max@west.darkside.com   __
USMail: 1070 Oakmont Dr. #1; San Jose, CA  95117  ICBM: 37 20 N 121 53 W  /  \
Like strategic games of interstellar conquest? . . . Ask about UNIVERSE!  \__/
-)(- Omnia quia sunt, lumina sunt; all things that are, are lights. -)(-
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: tara@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Lady Johanna Constantine)
Subject: Re: Fan Fiction--Copyright Infringement? (LONG)
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 21:56:57 GMT

I am only active in Robin of Sherwood fanfic myself, and
had never thought of such legal problems, as Kip Carpenter,
the creator of the series, asks only that you do not write his
characters out of character (hence no "slash", and Gisburne turns
good stories aren't quite kosher).  He has a whole bookshelf of
'zines in his home, and even tribbed a poem to _Albion_, the largest
zine at the moment.

Don Bellisario has practically sanctioned one of the Quantum Leap
zines, and we all know how Roddenberry felt about them.  MZB does
her own sort fo pro zines, with the Darkover Anthologies, and I've
always enjoyed those (hell, they're only $5!  I've paid up to $30
for a zine!).

Most artists I've met have no objection to fanfic and zines except
when their characters are portrayed differently tahn they way they
wrote them.

just my .02

LJC
-- 
Lady Johanna Constantine* Tales and dreams are the shadow-truths that will
tara@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu   * endure when mere facts are dust, and ashes, and
Disclaimer - huh?       * forgot.      -Dream of the Endless (and Neil G.)
Church of Our Lady of the Perpetually Clueless, donations accepted......
From: jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com (Jim Mann)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Tolkien's (and Donaldson's) style (was Re: writing Styles)
Date: 26 Jan 93 14:59:16 GMT
Reply-To: jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com
Organization: Stratus Computer Inc, Marlboro MA
NNTP-Posting-Host: gondolin.pubs.stratus.com

In article <KERS.93Jan26100119@cdollin.hpl.hp.com>  
kers@hplb.hpl.hp.com (Chris Dollin) writes:
>    "X said" was replaced by, "X gasped," or "X whispered," etc. 
> 
> I'm not sure if this is taste, or convention (and if the latter,  
whether it be
> genre-specific or distributed through modern writing), but I find  
the
> multifarious ways of saying ``said'' to be more noticable (and  
objectionable)
> than repeated use of ``said''. That gasped, it should -- sorry, I  
prefer it to
> -- be used sparingly. (Using variants regularly tend to make them  
less
> effective.)

Almost every major literary critic, outside the field (such
as T.S. Eliot) and inside the field (such as James Blish), and 
almost every book on how to write, says to use "said," not
"gasped," "chortled," "whined," "tinned," etc. ad nauseum. 

--
Jim Mann            
Stratus Computer   jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com  
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: jlpicard@austin.ibm.com (Craig Becker)
Subject: Re: Riverworld (Farmer)
Originator: jlpicard@woofer.austin.ibm.com
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 21:00:40 GMT
Reply-To: jlpicard@austin.ibm.com
Organization: IBM Object Technology Products


In article <user-250193181351@hf-mac16.uio.no>, user@computer.uio.no (PC Jorgensen) writes:
> I recall that I found the three first books in the series all good, the
> first two very good, and the third a bit long-winded, but still OK. The
> two last were downhill from there, and Farmer shouldn't really have written
> no. 5. 
> 
> But you can do a lot worse sf reading than these 5 books. Try 'em.

Yeah. Bad P.J.Farmer is better than the so-called "good" stuff alot
of writers churn out.

Craig

Not the opinion of my employer.
-- 
-- "You will have the tallest,    Craig Becker, Object Technology Products --
--  darkest leading man in               Internet: jlpicard@austin.ibm.com --
--  Hollywood."                     IBM TR: jlpicard@woofer.austin.ibm.com --
--   - Merian C. Cooper to Fay Wray               VNET: JLPICARD at AUSVM1 --
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 23:00:29 EST
From: <CMH114@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Vernor Vinge's new book...

 Speaking of _A Fire Upon the Deep... (spoilers)...

























      What did yinz think of the the psychological theme? Kind of reminded
me of Dick's _Dr. Bloodmoney_. Vinge seems to be playing with characters with
severely compromised personalities. The Skroderiders discovering that they are
genetically/technologically programmed sabeteurs, Phrom tortured by his
artificial, puppet nature, the Sjandra Kei refugees dealing with the
destruction of thier culture, the unstable nature of the Tines pack-minds,
they all share a certain lack of mental integrity. Interesting that a 600pg
space opera plotted on the galactic scale is at it's  heart a psychological
novel.

Mitch Hagmaier
Sig still lost in Wastelands of Enormous State University
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written