From: stephen@orchid.UCSC.EDU ()
Newsgroups: ca.politics
Subject: DISGUSTING = WRONG.
Date: 12 Oct 1992 19:09:12 GMT
Organization: Santa Cruz
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: orchid.ucsc.edu
Summary: Majority - bigotry - co-opt

In article <1992Oct12.165256.3516@netcom.com> phil@netcom.com (Phil Ronzone) writes:
>In article <1992Oct11.231240.20626@gordian.com> mike@gordian.com (Michael A. Thomas) writes:
>    >Um Phil, what do people's attitudes toward homosexuality have
>    >to do with *anything*. People's bigotry is not a validation
>    >of anything. I have little doubt if we interchanged the word
>    >"Italian" for "homosexual" you'd be the first to howl in
>    >protest that this is no voting matter.
>
>
>Interesting. If peoples *attitude* is something along the lines that *you*
>don't like, it's "bigotry".

We need to look closely at the definition of bigotry and also how people may 
hide it their bigotry, even from themselves.

Bigot- A person who is rigidly devoted to their own group, religion, race or
politics and is intolerant of those who differ.

And the keyword here is intolerant- meaning to have the inability to tolerate
differences in ideas, opinions, or beliefs.

>Now THAT attitude is true bigotry.

Which attitude are you talking about- yours or his (the poster).

>How long have you held this arrogant world viewpoint?

Well well now there is a hint of bigotry.

>A large number of people find homosexuality disgusting, disagreeable,
>or abhorent. There is no right or wrong on that, and is has little to
>do with bigotry.

Well I beg to differ on your use of words- disagreeable is probably OK in
terms of you relating it to 'there is no wrong or right', but we should
be careful about disgusting or abhorrent since these words connote a
quality of right and wrong.  Abhorrent - to regard with 'horror' or
loathing, disgusting - offensive...  these words are used in ways that
bring about value judgements (right or wrong) in other people's minds.
Disagree as a word does not tend to do this or cause us to think in
terms of right or wrong... I disagree about the color shoes you are wearing
with your pants- doesn't project right or wrong.  If I substitute the
word disgusting, then it takes on another meaning about my personal
judgement in relationship to right and wrong.

>
>Secondly, to correct your narrow mindedness, it wouldn't bother me one bit
>if Italian was substituted homosexual.
>
>Your basic trouble, it seems from reading your posts, is that being dislike
>for an attribute worries you a great deal.
>

Well actually if we look at the word attribute- yes it would worry me if someone
is attacking me based upon a particular attribute of mine... being black, being
a woman, being tall, being bald...  If we confront a person based upon an 
attribute which is superficial and then try to tie that to something which may
have substance, then we get into trouble. 


>You;d be a lot more happy if you didn't let YOUR happiness depend on the
>opinions of others. Then maybe you'd stop trying to use force to "make"
>people like you (or your cause).
>

You are right- one should not, but if others are using conditions of attitudes
and attributes to attack someone, in private or in public, then it is the right
of that individual to stop that person from doing that via the process of
education or counterpoint arguing or to bring about changes that stop this
type of attack.  

>
>First of all -- I'm not a bigot. Stop equating any aspect of dislike with
>bigotry. Secondly, I have every right to co-oipt anybody into anything
>(that is moral).
>

(That is moral) this is a very sticky statement, it reeks of the potential for
bigotry... you do not have a market or a hold on 'what is moral'. To use some
examples of what people think-  Hilter thought he was moral, Saddam probably thinks
that he is moral, the Iranians believe they are moral.  It is our individual
versions of morality and how we apply them that takes us to the doorstep of
bigotry and hatred.

>
>
>If you are doing something that a large number of people find disgusting,
>then either stop it, or live with it.
>
>

So - I suppose that blacks in the South during the times when it was disgusting-
to have them sit in the front of the bus, sit in an all-white restaurant, drink
from an all-white water fountain, or walk on the same sidewalk as white people,
well that was just disgusting (at the time circa early 1900's).

Therefore from your logic we should conclude, that if a majority of people find
something disgusting- IT MUST BE!

So we must stop it = no advancement or social positive evolution. or live with it =
no advancement or social positive evolution.  

These are certainly creative solutions aren't they?  And yes I say this in a 
sarcastic tone...
>
>
>-- 
>phil@netcom.com (Phil Ronzone)
>
Newsgroups: ca.politics