HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: smoliar@argon.iss.nus.sg (Stephen Smoliar)
Subject: Re: Re: tonality and modern music
Reply-To: smoliar@iss.nus.sg (Stephen Smoliar)
Organization: Institute of Systems Science, NUS, Singapore
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1992 23:32:35 GMT

In article <LwXguB1w165w@student.business.uwo.ca>
r4smith@student.business.uwo.ca (Richard Smith) writes:
> I think that by and large it is the substructure that makes 
>post-tonal music so much more difficult for many to appreciate. The tonal 
>system acts as a magnificent organizing device that is dynamic--it 
>creates tension and release through time. A good tonal composition is an 
>argument with a resolution. Without tonality as a structuring device 
>composers have to turn to other means in order to create a sense of 
>growth--for instance texture, density, activity, etc. It takes training 
>and a lot of exposure to appreciate these elements, especially since they 
>are subordinated to tonality as organizing devices.
>
>Serial music was a noble experiment and produced some great works, but in 
>the end it was a failure because most listeners don't have perfect (or 
>even relative) pitch so couldn't recognize pitch organization to save 
>their souls. Hardly any non-trained musician has the musical memory to 
>appreciate the other serialized parameters.
>
I think that any experiment which assumed that recognizing pitch organization
was fundamental to listening was doomed to failure.  However, I do not think
very many serial composers based their experiments on that premise.  The REAL
experiment had to do with how one could modulate tension and release without
depending on formulaic dispositions towards tension and release which were
packaged into tonality.  Many approaches to this problem succeeded admirably.
The less successful probably deserve to be forgotten.

Of course, there is ANOTHER line of experimental inquiry which followed on the
heels of atonality.  This one concerned the question of whether or not the
listening experience should NECESSARILY be such a modulation of tension and
release.  Cage was perhaps the first significant pioneer to approach listening
as an alternative kind of experience.  More recently, much of minimalism is
based on the idea that gradual process is a viable alternative to the
resolution of tension.  Once again, the inquiry has led to all sorts
of experiments, most of which are probably best forgotten.  However,
some have been successful enough that the mind behind the ear will never
be the same again.
-- 
Stephen W. Smoliar; Institute of Systems Science
National University of Singapore; Heng Mui Keng Terrace
Kent Ridge, SINGAPORE 0511
Internet:  smoliar@iss.nus.sg
From: ca_ac@gsbacd.uchicago.edu
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re:Brahms Violin Concerto
Date: 17 Nov 92 09:23:47 GMT
Article-I.D.: gsbacd.1992Nov17.032347.1

In article <1992Nov15.153350.9061@cronkite.ocis.temple.edu>, zorro@picasso.ocis.temple.edu (John Grabowski) writes:
> Can anyone out there recommend a really passionate performance of the Brahms
> Violin Concerto.  I've already heard Stern/Ormandy on CBS and Perlman/Giulini
> on Angel, plus a few by relatively obscure East European orchestra whose names
> escape me now.  They are all lacking for some reason or other.  I've also heard
> a live TV version by Nadja Salerno Sonnenberg, and am tempted to get her
> studio recording, but I've found she's not as exciting in the studio.
> 
> Also, a friend whose musical opinion I respect says Anna-Sophie Mutter's with
> von Karajan on DG is disappointing as well.  I thought that would be 
> definitive.
> 
> Any suggestions?

I can tell you the recordings of this concerto that I like (of course I haven't
heard them all!). I am not sure what you mean by "passionate", however none of
the ones you mention would be my primary recommendations. This concerto is
mostly played as a lyrical work - as opposed to dramatic - and so most of the 
recordings are quite lyrical in style.  My favourite version is Arthur
Grumiaux's 1958 recording with the Concertgebouw Orchestra under Eduard
Van Beinum. I am not sure this if this is available on CD but it definitely
should be made available if it is not. The rapt concentration and lyricism
of Grumiaux in this performance makes listening to this recording a truly  
delightful experience. Note that Grumiaux's later performance with Colin 
Davis is available on Philips' Silver Line Classics and exhibits some of the
same qualities. I, however, find that it lacks some of the magic of the earlier
performance. Grumiaux plays Joachim's cadenza in the first movement.
 If you want a more dramatic version of the concerto then try, as some of the
other netters have suggested, the Heifetz/Reiner/CSO recording on RCA, which is
a full 5-6 minutes shorter in length as compared to most of the recordings 

available. Heifetz is absolutely masterly here. This is definitely a disc 
worth getting. My only reservation about the performance is the cadenza 
(Heifetz's own) which IMHO is not very distinctive: I much prefer the Joachim.
 I also like Krebbers version with the Concertgebouw Orch. under Haitink. This 
is a lyrical performance as well and its available on Philips at budget price.
The remastering has made the orchestra sound somewhat shrill in parts but
otherwise this is a highly recommendable disc though compared to Grumiaux '58
version Krebbers seems much too deliberate at times. If you want a Stern
performance, I like his mono version with Beecham and the Royal Philharmonic
Orchestra better than the version with Ormandy. His playing is much tighter in
this performance and even though the playing times are almost identical on the
two versions the older performance somehow seems more coherent. This version is
available on Sony's "Isaac Stern Collection".

				                 Alak Chakravorty.
From: mgresham@dscatl.UUCP (Mark Gresham)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Bassoonists?
Date: 23 Nov 92 16:50:25 GMT
Reply-To: mgresham@dscatl.UUCP (Mark Gresham)
Organization: Digital Systems Co,  Atlanta, Ga

In article <84125@ut-emx.uucp> amadeus@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Susan Harwood Kaczmarczik) writes:
>
>Here I am, standing up to be counted -- someone who not only plays but
>actually has a degree in bassoon performance.  There are more of us
>out there, but I do understand your frustration.  Especially since
>most of the answers to your plea so far seem to consist of bassoon
>humor by non-bassoonists.  :)
>
>So what parts of the repertoire do you particularly enjoy? (Answering
>the Mozart concerto is not allowed.) I'm partial to baroque music
>myself, especially the Vivaldi concertos and sonatas by Boismoitier,
>Bertoli and the like.

I don't play bassoon, but did play *at* it many years ago.
My question in response to the last paragraph is what bassoon
repertoire of the current century is particularly enjoyed by
bassoonists?  (Besides the bassoon music of Hindemith.)


Cheers,

--Mark Gresham

dscatl!mgresham@gatech.edu

==========================


Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: Considering 4'33''
Originator: news@nimaster
Reply-To: roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig)
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 16:07:33 GMT

In article <1eb2neINNecj@MINERVA.CIS.YALE.EDU> ronthal-adam@yale.edu (Adam Ronthal) writes:
>In article <1D9cuB2w165w@sys6626.bison.mb.ca> kevin@sys6626.bison.mb.ca (Kevin Scott) writes:

>>Why would anyone issue a RECORDING of this?  It would seem that it should 
>>exist in performance only.

>>As long as the performer enjoys himself...

>I saw this on CD once.  You'd have to be a fool to buy it. Or have money to
>waste.

Me, I *listen* to CDs; just seeing them does little for me.

Now, as you may not know, Adam -- not that we haven't discussed this in
detail right here in rec.music.classical during the past two weeks --
4'33" need not be performed in silence.  One can make a performance of
the piece that includes all kinds of sounds.

And finally, get real.  A CD holds as much as 80 minutes of music.  What's
one short piece more or less, even if you don't like it?  Would you buy
a CD of Rite of Spring plus Miraculous Mandarin plus 4'33"?  

Roger
>Adam
>
>-- 
>   /|\  /|~\   Adam M. Ronthal BR'94    |    ronthal-adam@yale.edu	
>  /-| \/ |_/   P.O. Box 607 Yale Stn.   |    ronthal@minerva.cis.yale.edu
> /  |    | \   New Haven, CT   06520    |    ronthal@pop.cis.yale.edu
>
From: velde2@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Francois Velde)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Why not a rec.music.contemp group?
Date: 20 Nov 92 14:23:20 GMT
Organization: HAC - Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore

Time to kill this thread.
And time for an apology.  I initially posted the question, with a semi-humorous
intent. The French often have a hard time distinguishing sarcasm and humour,
I suppose I share that flaw.  My intention was really to ask: if early music
is set in a separate newsgroup, why wouldn't contemporary music be too? I 
have been given the answer: r.m.early is for technical discussions of how
to make a lute by hand.  I did not mean the question as a "get out of my 
newsgroup", but it sounded like it. Again, apologies.

I am the Obtuse, the Obstinate, the Retrograde. I booed Stravinsky's Bird
of Fire, I decried Mahler's outrage, I boxed the ears of young long-haired
hoodlums at the Paris premiere of Tannhauser, I despised Mozart for the 
dissonances of his quartet, I broke my cane on the back of some ignorant 
defender of Pergolesi. Faithful to the dead gods, stalwart soldier of the
arriere-garde, lost in blissful enjoyment of obsolete monuments.

Thanks to all, who displayed more tact and consideration in their replies,
than I did in my posting.  I will try to follow discussions of modern music.
After all, this group offers a unique chance to be persuaded that music did
not stop in 1945. 

I will *not* remove /4'33''/j from my kill file, however  :-)


-- 

	Francois Velde
From: dgold@basso.actrix.gen.nz (Dale Gold)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: bass info
Date: 20 Nov 92 23:23:22 GMT
Organization: New Zealand Symphony Orchestra

Quoted from <BxxHrA.9Gq.1@cs.cmu.edu> by hsmoliar+@DB1.SPEECH.CS.CMU.EDU (Harold Smoliar):
> In article <92319.123708GSRGAAO@TECHNION.BITNET> you write:
> >   I am a double bass player in this isolated country of Israel,
> >and I have run out of resin for my bow. 
> >   Could somebody out there send me Kolstein's address, so I could write them
> >for a current catalogue. I know that double bass resin is not a subject
> >you can talk endlessly about, but I need some badly.  Any help would
> >be very much appreciated.
> 
> Samuel Kolstein and Son Ltd.
> 795 Foxhurst Road
> Baldwin  NY  11510
> 516-546-9300
> 
> or
> 
> Lemur Music Inc
> PO Box 5201
> Bloomington  IN  47407
> 
> My colleagues in the bass section reccomend both and say that the prices may
> be better at Lemur.

Be sure to ask Lemur for a catalog, and bear in mind that Murray Grodner
(the owner) won't accept credit cards or send you your rosin unless you
have enclosed *exactly* the right amount of money.  The prices are
generally very good, but can be offset by the hassles and delays involved
in figuring out the postage, insurance, etc.

Cheers,
Dale
--
- dgold@basso.actrix.gen.nz
- Korokoro, New Zealand
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: gmw1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Gabe M Wiener)
Subject: Re: Schirmer's (was Re: Looking for a source for composer prints)
Reply-To: gmw1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Gabe M Wiener)
Organization: Columbia University
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 03:11:47 GMT

In article <1992Nov17.200800.1@eagle.wesleyan.edu> phoogenboom@eagle.wesleyan.edu writes:
>>>Anyone know a good source for prints of composer portraits?  I'm looking for
>> I bet Schirmer's has them, too.
>
>To what are you referring when you say "Schirmer's"?

Schirmer's is a music vendor in New York City.  I'm not sure if they are
(still) connected in any meaningful way to G. Schirmer & Co., but I suspect
they still have ties.


--
Gabe Wiener - Columbia Univ.     "This 'telephone' has too many shortcomings 
gmw1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu       to be seriously considered as a means of 
N2GPZ in ham radio circles        communication. The device is inherently of
72355,1226 on CI$                 no value to us." -Western Union memo, 1877
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: jwa@vipunen.hut.fi (Jyrki J Wahlstedt)
Subject: Re: tonality and modern music
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland
	<1eh92dINNit1@calvin.usc.edu> <1992Nov20.011139.3275@math.ucla.edu>
Date: 23 Nov 92 02:24:33

In article <1992Nov20.011139.3275@math.ucla.edu> pugh@pico.math.ucla.edu (David Pugh) writes:

>.... or could it be because they can't bloody sing it? Melody is like
>a tune - you know, hummable. Ever tried humming Stockhausen? Maybe
>note patterns would be a fairer description. I don't think Karlheinz
>could write a melody to save his life!

  I can not tell the source, but I've heard that nowadays Stockhausen
  won't write anything he can't whistle.

  Well, I don't know his abilities as a whistler:-)
--
!
!	Jyrki Wahlstedt
!		Jyrki.Wahlstedt@hut.fi
!
!  Our life is no dream, but it should and will perhaps become one.
!
From: chem91@Elroy.UH.EDU ("Bill Harrison (713)-743-2789")
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: NYC record stores
Date: 15 Nov 92 19:50:32 GMT
Reply-To: chem91@Elroy.UH.EDU
Organization: University of Houston
NNTP-Posting-Host: elroy.uh.edu


Hi...  I'm off to New York City next week, and would like to check out some 
record stores while I'm there.  I'm especially interested in obscue labels and
imports, rather than cheap prices, *per se*.  Where are the good stores?

Please e-mail or post as you prefer.

Thanks,
Bill


+ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\               /~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Bill Harrison,            \             /       "Be as radical as... |
| University of Houston, TX  >-----------<         reality itself"     |
| CHEM91@JETSON.BITNET      /             \                V. I. Lenin |
+ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~/               \~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
From: HS99@music.mus.polymtl.ca (S. Guimont)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Query : English Madrigals
Date: 19 Nov 92 07:09:55 GMT
Organization: Ecole Polytechnique de Montreal

Hello,
      I try to find some enregistrements of English Madrigals songs.
I put here some name of compositors (Byrd, Bateson, Farnaby, Mundy,
Bennett, Morley, Pilkington, Wilbye).  I know many CD about Byrd,
but all others ???

Thanks!

Regards,
          S. Guimont
          RDI - Research and Development Informatik
From: diarmuid@uniwa.uwa.edu.au (Diarmuid Pigott)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Respighi's Fountains of Rome
Date: 20 Nov 1992 18:11:52 +0800
Organization: The University of Western Australia
NNTP-Posting-Host: uniwa.uwa.edu.au
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5

bellmann@qut.edu.au wrote:
:   In Respighi's score of "Fountains of Rome" the two harps are marked
: "ad libitum". I grew up with the Toscanini version and got to consider
: the harps as absolutely essential, specially in the last section. It was
: very disappointing for me to get Dutoit's CD and find no harps at all.
: Next I tried Ozawa, just in case he had a different idea but missed again.
: Does anybody know of a CD version of the tryptic that includes the harps?

Yes: the glorious Dorati version on Mercury. 
From: zornow@hpcc01.corp.hp.com (Claudia Zornow)
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 00:00:10 GMT
Subject: Re: Clarinet construction
Organization: HP SSD R & D
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical

fred-mckenzie@ksc.nasa.gov (Fred McKenzie) writes:

> It seems to me that making one out of any material that is significantly
> different from ebony, creates a distinctly different instrument.  It would
> be interesting to be around in 100 years, to see how things turn out!

It's the same situation with reeds.  There have been many
attempts to make them out of synthetic material (e.g. 
plastic, or plastic-coated cane), but none have been
successful, at least not to the point of acceptance
by professional clarinetists.  Clarinet players (and
oboists and bassoonists) are still slaves to Arundo donax.

Claudia
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: Looking for a source for composer prints
Originator: news@nimaster
Reply-To: roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig)
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 16:00:09 GMT

In article <1992Nov17.035139.13356@news.columbia.edu> gmw1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Gabe M Wiener) writes:
>Anyone know a good source for prints of composer portraits?  I'm looking for
>prints such as the standard portrait of Bach (the one where's holding a sheet
>of music paper), 

The Hausmann Portrait.  btw, there's a canon on the sheet of paper.

>the painting of Mozart and Nannerl at the piano with Leopold
>standing with his violin, etc. 

Patelson's sells this sort of thing.  Give 'em a call.  No number handy,
but they're on 56th St, just behind Carnegie, not that you don't know 
that, Gabe...8-)

I bet Schirmer's has them, too.

Roger
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: hsmoliar+@cs.cmu.edu (Harold Smoliar)
Subject: Re: Batons in period orchestras (was Re: More Haydn)
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 19:42:46 GMT

In article <1992Nov17.203151.20954@athena.mit.edu> ridgway@athena.mit.edu (Lee Ridgway) writes:
>I'm not sure who made the baton a standard fixture for orchestral conductors

>
>Interestingly, several conductors of modern orchestras are moving away from
>constant use of the baton: Ozawa, Masur, Mehta are ones I think of immediately.
And David Zinman.

Harold Smoliar
English horn, Pittsburgh Symphony
Piano, Symphony Jazz Quartet
From: basinski@biosci.arizona.edu (Mark Basinski)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Soler sonatas: reccomendations?
Date: 18 Nov 92 22:56:53 GMT
Followup-To: rec.music.classical
Organization: Univ. of Arizona

I noticed that Alicia de Larrocha is playing a couple Soler things on here
upcoming NYC performances, so perhaps she might record them soon? if she
hasn't already?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mark Basinski      Internet: basinski@biosci.arizona.edu
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: conrad@brahms.udel.edu (Jon Conrad)
Subject: Re: Schoenberg's Gurre-Lieder
Organization: University of Delaware
Distribution: na
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 21:11:38 GMT

In article <1992Nov17.043452.25160@cs.ucla.edu> pierce@lanai.cs.ucla.edu (Brad Pierce) writes:

>Please recommend a CD version of Arnold Schoenberg's "Gurre-Lieder".

Easy.  Chailly, conducting the Berlin Radio Orchestra and assorted
choruses, with Siegfried Jerusalem, Susan Dunn, Brigitte Fassbaender,
and Hans Hotter.  On London.

Wonderfully well recorded, extremely well sung, MAGNIFICENTLY conducted.
Nobody else strings all the good bits into one ongoing line like this.

I've heard all the recordings (I reviewed this and another new recording
of it for the NY Times last year).  This one beats 'em all.  Including
the yet-to-be-released Mehta, taped at live performances one of which I
attended.

Jon Alan Conrad
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical

mvalinis@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Michael J Valinis) writes:

> OK, folks, here is what you've been waiting for -- the schedule of 
> TubaChristmas performances for 1992.  I give only the cities and dates here; 
> for exact times and places, e-mail me & I'll give you more complete info.

> ...
> CALIFORNIA
>   Arcata/Eureka - 12/13
>   Fresno - 12/13 & 19
>   LA - 12/8
>   Sacramento - 11/28
>   San Diego - 12/18
>   Santa Barbara - 12/5
> ...
> Whew!  That's all folks!

No it's not.  

    San Jose - 12/5  (e-mail me for details)

Claudia
zornow@hpcc01.corp.hp.com
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: svenn@staff.cs.uit.no (Svenn Hanssen)
Subject: BEST Recordings??
Organization: University of Troms
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 18:04:32 GMT


Best recordings?
----------------
There has been a lot of discussion about which recordings are the
best when it comes to Mahler, Beethoven and Tschaikowsky. Lots of 
interesting stuff to be read, and some not so interesting. Deryks 
guide to Mahler gives a good intro to the Mahler collection (thank's
Deryk - you made a "Mahlerian" out of me ;-), but are there any 
similar guides to the other composers symphonies? If so; where? If 
not; would it be a good idea to put together one for each composer? 
(probably limited to their symphonies only)

I know this will always be a matter of taste but, as a novice to
classical music, I at least would appriciate such a guide - no matter
how biased it might be!!! And why not? Then it would be up to the 
reader of the "guide" to find out which recording he likes most.

"The right performance will make you shiver with pleasure, the wrong 
one may ruin your opinion!"

-- 
Svenn
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: hal@radio.wkar.msu.edu (Hal Prentice)
Subject: Re: El Salon Mexico 
Organization: Broadcasting Services, Michigan State University
Distribution: na
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 14:31:03 GMT

In article <1992Nov14.011355.17747@bnlux1.bnl.gov> schroede@bnlux1.bnl.gov (gary l. schroeder) writes:
>From: schroede@bnlux1.bnl.gov (gary l. schroeder)
>Subject: El Salon Mexico 
>Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1992 01:13:55 GMT
>
>This may be a silly reason to post, but... I recently piked up some
>amazing recordings that simply blew my socks off.
>
>Has anyone out there got Copland's "El Salon Mexcio" on Deutche
>Grammaphone (431 672-2 GH), conducted by Bernstein featuring the NY
>Philharmonic?  Yaaaa!  The drum thumps at the end of that little Latin
>American ditty (the hat dance?) is enough to make you cry.  This must be
>one of the most sonically impressive recordings that I've ever heard,
>not to mention one of the best renderings of this particular piece.
>Comments from anyone else?
>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Gary L. Schroeder  		|  
>schroede@bnlux1.bnl.gov         |        It's a pomaceous life. 
>Brookhaven National Laboratory  | 

The DG Bernstein/Copland is very good, especially when one considers it is a 
concert recording (of course, all Bernstein's late recordings are concert 
performances.)  For my money, I've always been impressed with the Mercury 
Living Presence recording of "El Salon Mexico" with the Minneapolis Symphony 
Orchestra/Antal Dorati.  The original LP was truly awesome (incredible 
bass!.)  It has been reissued on CD (Mercury 434 301-2).  The recording is 
analog stereo dating from December, 1957.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Hal Prentice, FM Program Manager      Michigan State University
WKAR-FM, 283 Communication Arts Bldg  East Lansing, MI 48824-1212 USA
Internet: hal@radio.wkar.msu.edu      Bitnet: hal@radio.wkar.bitnet
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: jeffw@or.credence.com (Jeff Winslow)
Subject: Re: Why not a rec.music.contemp group?
Organization: Credence Systems Corp. Beaverton, OR
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1992 03:03:13 GMT

Francois Velde (velde2@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu) wrote:
:  Am I the only one who has little interest
: in contemporary music (say, post-1945), and who is at wits' end
: to devise an appropriate kill file? 

Generally speaking, new groups arise because the people who will be using
them want them, not because someone else wants to force them out of where
they are.  There are exceptions, but they don't make good analogies for
post-1945 music.

I'm sorry, but I have very little sympathy. I don't particularly care for
all the recording-related articles that make up the bulk of traffic here; 
I'd much rather talk about the music itself. But the group doesn't exist
for my personal convenience. 

						Jeff Winslow