HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: keys@starchild.ncsl.nist.gov (Lawrence B. Keys)
Newsgroups: rec.autos
Subject: Re: Before Buying Japanese.
Date: 8 Jan 93 12:50:44 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: National Institute of Standards & Technology

In article <1ii9c7INNqnr@transfer.stratus.com> cdodson@beast.cac.stratus.com writes:
>In article <thzr00h@lynx.unm.edu> bhjelle@carina.unm.edu () writes:
>> In article <1993Jan6.185357.28923@oakhill.sps.mot.com>  
>rvkl60@aus18a25.sps.mot.com (Tom Mathes) writes:


>But I like my Saturn (SL2) because it's *fun to drive* - handling,  
>acceleration, braking, steering feel, lateral seat support all combine
>to make the Saturn infintely more exciting that the "please everyone"
>Accord and Civic "blandmobiles".
>
>It's kind of like well-constructed and reliable 16v VW . . .



               NOT!



>Craig Dodson (Stratus Computer)
>cdodson@beast.cac.stratus.com

                                                  .  
                                                 /                
Larry                            __/    _______/_                 
keys@csmes.ncsl.nist.gov       /                  \               
                          _____     __     _____    \------- ===
            ----------- / ____/   /  /   /__  __/              \
         /     ___    /  / ___   /  /      / /    ____          |
        |    /      \/ /__ /  | /  /__  __/ /__ /       \      / 
        /___         \_______/ /_____/ /______/            ====OO
            \       /                           \       /         
                -                                   -
       ---------------- FAHRVERGNUGEN FOREVER! --------------------            
            The fact that I need to explain it to you indicates
            that you probably wouldn't understand anyway!
       ------------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroups: rec.autos
From: sharen@iscnvx.lmsc.lockheed.com (Sharen A. Rund)
Subject: Re: Taurus #1 in US
Organization: Lockheed Missiles and Space Co.
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 93 21:52:40 GMT

In article <1993Jan8.151944.19766@gssec.bt.co.uk> squigg@gssec.bt.co.uk (Stephen Quigg) writes:
>In article <1993Jan8.055151.1810@julian.uwo.ca>, morton@gaul.csd.uwo.ca (Brent Morton) writes:
>|> In article <1ihrg7INN5th@agate.berkeley.edu> neff@diva.Berkeley.EDU (Robert Neff) writes:
>|> >In article <buck.726418367@granite> buck@granite.ma30.bull.com (Ken Buck) writes:
>|> >>dbernard@clesun.Central.Sun.COM (Dave Bernard) writes:
>|> >>>According to last year's sales figures, Taurus edged out the Accord as 
>|> >>>the US's top-selling car model, and Ford wasted no time in giving itself
>|> >>
>|> >>all this stuff about "who sold the most" is kind of irrelevant anyway.
>|> .........(more deleted)
>|> >I would tend to agree, that in Ford's case, the motivation was to be
>|> >able to brag about the best selling car in America for 1992 in their
>|> >1993 advertising, as well
>|> >as market share and over-supply reasons.  The end of year promotions
>|> >cost them something like $2500/car.  Sounds like it was a good time
>|> >to buy one.
>|> 
>|> -- Brent
>|> morton@artifis.gaul.csd.uwo.ca
>
>-- 
>
>	If you got such a good deal on the Taurus , this will surely be
>reflected in the very poor residual value of the car , so you'll probably lose
>money in the long term , and If you just paid the full price for the Taurus ,
>then you'll find the value of your car has dropped as well ...... so nice one
>Ford for shafting all your loyal customers in one fell swoop ......

sorry, your logic isn't

-- 
________________       __        ________________   "They that can give up
\_________      \     /_ \      /      _________/  essential liberty to 
 \_________      \_____/  \____/      _________/  obtain temporary safety
  \___________________      __________________/  deserve neither liberty 
                     /______\                   nor safety."  
ALL disclaimers apply ....                           --Benjamin Franklin
From: jr4q+@andrew.cmu.edu (Jason M. Roth)
Newsgroups: rec.autos
Subject: Re: Before Buying Japanese.
Date: 11 Jan 93 13:06:07 GMT
Article-I.D.: andrew.0fITpTy00UzxE37dJz
	<thzr00h@lynx.unm.edu>
Distribution: na
Organization: Junior, Architecture, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA

>or similar. Some of us are looking for reliability, safety,
>good MPG, low maintenance costs. I have a Honda Civic that
>I am very happy with. In 2.5 years, if has never failed to
>start (even a single attempt!), or needed any repairs of
>any kind. It gets close to 40 mpg. I wouldn't trade it for yours.

Well, I had an '87 Pontiac Grand Am, and in 92k miles I don't ever
recall starting troubles; big deal. Around 80k it had problems w/ the
distributorless ignition (in the rain) that I fixed myself (I know, it
sounds odd that it started w/ ign. probs, but that's part of the point);
that's it. The mileage wasn't even close (ca. 25, auto, hard driving),
but I wouldn't dispute that for a moment. Oh, yeah, someone brought up
safety: I hit a parked car @30+ mph (it was raining, I wasn't paying
attention, I was an idiot), wearing belt (of course) but no bag, and got
not one bruise; try that in a Honda.

 Has anyone else noticed (Newsweek or some such did an article on it
10-91) that US cars now virtually match Japanese for quality (as
measured in actual repairs, not "feel", which is suspiciously
subjective), and beat them in size, cost, and, on average, fuel economy,
yet half the country insists that only a redneck idiot would buy US? I'd
say that someone buying a Tercel these days is in the same mindset as
someone who bought a Dodge 600 (or whatever) in the early 80s. He wants
to buy a car made in a certain country, and won't consider the other
option. The human brain is marvelously adept at justifying its
prejudices, including justifying its justifications (to itself and
others). What's the difference between "Japanese piece of shit" and
"American piece of shit"? Good question....

JMR
HSK
Newsgroups: rec.autos
From: strollo@ssd.kodak.com (Larry Strollo)
Subject: Re: GEICO's Laser Guns
Organization: Eastman Kodak
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 93 22:38:05 GMT

In article <0fIjNRG00iV3Q1pmNw@andrew.cmu.edu> Steven Ritter <sr0o+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
>>
>>I don't have any problem with GEICO donating laser guns to police. If
>>they think that this will reduce claims (and thus their costs), then
>>this is exactly what they should be doing.

I hope you'll excuse me, but I don't believe for an instant that this is the
reason why they are doing this.  How about this reason - each GEICO insured
driver that gets caught speeding gets his rates increased.  So the more units 
out there catching people, the more money GEICO makes (not to mention the
states - but that's a different scan).  Regardless of any humanitarian 
propaganda they might spew, this is in the best interest of their bottom 
line.  Period.


LMS 



-- 
===============================================================================
Larry Strollo                                             strollo@ssd.kodak.com
Eastman Kodak Co. Rochester, NY 14653-9005                       (716) 253-9822
===============================================================================
Newsgroups: rec.autos
From: dclayton@bnr.ca (Don Clayton)
Subject: Re: Before Buying Japanese.
Reply-To: dclayton@bnr.ca (Don Clayton)
Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd.
Distribution: na
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 22:42:57 GMT

In article <1ikijvINNkpi@transfer.stratus.com>, cdodson@beast.cac.stratus.com (R. Craig Dodson) writes:
|> >Misc Saturn vs. Honda stuff deleted . . .
|> 
|> 
|> > A one or two year life time *proves* nothing.  Wait until they've been around
|> > for 10 years like the Accord, and we'll see what they prove.
|> 
|> It proves that they are at least on the right track. I'm not going to drop  
|> names, but there are many cars that have had problems from the moment they
|> hit the showroom floor. 

Granted, but just because GM can finally build a car that doesn't fall apart
when it hits the pavement does not mean they are as good as Honda.  It just
means they are not as bad as they used to be.

|> > |> But I like my Saturn (SL2) because it's *fun to drive* - handling,  
|> > |> acceleration, braking, steering feel, lateral seat support all combine
|> > |> to make the Saturn infintely more exciting that the "please everyone"
|> > |> Accord and Civic "blandmobiles".
|> > 
|> > I don't know about the SL2, but the 2 door model is pathetic when it comes
|> > to handling, acceleration, braking and steering feel.  Up here it Canada they
|> > sell for $15,000 + options, which is the same price as an Eagle Talon, Isuzu
|> > Impulse, Acura Integra and MX-3, all which easily out handle and perform it - 
|> > no contest (check ANY magazine and drive them).
|> 
|> Bzzt. Thanks for playing pocket-rocket trivia. We have some lovely parting
|> gifts for you . . .
|> 
|> Pathetic handling acceleration and braking ? Are you kidding ?  I'll give you
|> the fact that the Talon (in turbo awd form) would make an SC look silly, but
|> at least down here it's a few more $1000's for one. As for the Integra,
|> I regularly "rat race" a friend with a '90 RS and I have *no* trouble
|> out accelerating, out braking and *way* out handling him. The MX-3 ?
|> Sorry, it can't even break into the 8's in 0-60 (R&T 9.3 sec), compared to the
|> SC's 8.6.  And the Impulse ? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA You think the Saturn has
|> a noisy engine ? 

My non-turbo and non-awd Talon will also make you look silly, as will the Impulse
(I own/owned both and blew away many many Saturns).  The MX-3 and Integra are just
as fast (at least according to my magazines) and easily outhandle the Saturn.

What you have there, my friend, is a nice slow econo with 2 doors - nothing more.

Don Clayton
a.k.a. Admiral Maverick, DM of the Drow
My brain, my thoughts, my words.
"I'm all lost in the Supermarket.  I can no longer shop happily.
 I came in here for the special offer, guaranteed personality."
From: keys@starchild.ncsl.nist.gov (Lawrence B. Keys)
Newsgroups: rec.autos
Subject: Re: AudiWatch Update (Tm) #8
Date: 6 Jan 93 19:20:49 GMT
Organization: National Institute of Standards & Technology

In article <1993Jan6.061901.11735@sactoh0.sac.ca.us> mfolivo@sactoh0.sac.ca.us (Mark Newton-John) writes:
>In <C0CLoE.5xI@Interlan.com> powell@interlan.interlan.com (Glen D. Powell) writes:
>
>
>>THIS WEEK
>
>>...Toyota is said to be working on a narrow-angle V6 similar to the VR6
>>VW's installed in the Corrado and Passat.....  2.5 liters and 4-valve
>>heads with SOHC, HP unavailable.
>
>>Geee, the Japs are copying another company's successfull idea!, Ed.
>
>
>For crying out loud, why in the HELL did you have to make that kind
>of cracker racist remark? What a jerk. If you think that Volkswagen
>AG is so good with their ideas, then why did they let the Wankel
>patents go public dmain??? Shit, those idiot Germans had it, and
>couldn't make the damn thing work. If anything, Mazda helped keep
>that company alive in the 1970's when they came up with such
>"successful ideas" like the....   411, the 412, VW-Porsche 914...
>
>Toyota has been making four valve engines for their Corollas for
>YEARS before Volkswagen decided to get a brain fart of their own
>and make a four valve. If German manufacturers are so "high-tech",
>then why do PEDESTRIAN Toyota Corollas have twin-cam, four-valve
>engines, and all you can get on a bloody Passat is some asthmatic 2
          ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^           >liter with a single cam and two valves per cylinders?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Where did you get that information from!  The Passat came to these
shores with a 2.0 16v engine (that`s 2 cam's and 4 valves per cylinder).
This engine, while not a beast in the Passat, certainly shouldn't be
characterized as "astmatic".  This is the same engine that is standard
on the 1990-present 16v VW Golf GTI and Jetta GLI.

BTW, the 1993 Passat GLX has the VR6 engine which means that a 4 cylinder
engine is not the only "bloody" engine available in a Passat. Another
example of "misinformation"!
 

                                                  .  
                                                 /                
Larry                            __/    _______/_                 
keys@csmes.ncsl.nist.gov       /                  \               
                          _____     __     _____    \------- ===
            ----------- / ____/   /  /   /__  __/              \
         /     ___    /  / ___   /  /      / /    ____          |
        |    /      \/ /__ /  | /  /__  __/ /__ /       \      / 
        /___         \_______/ /_____/ /______/            ====OO
            \       /                           \       /         
                -                                   -
       ---------------- FAHRVERGNUGEN FOREVER! --------------------            
            The fact that I need to explain it to you indicates
            that you probably wouldn't understand anyway!
       ------------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroups: rec.autos
From: bill@uluru.tandem.com (Bill Norcott)
Subject: Re: Warranties and driveway maintance.
Keywords: warranty maintanence.
Reply-To: norcott_bill@tandem.com (Bill Norcott)
Organization: Tandem Computers, Inc.
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 22:36:29 GMT

In article <1if9d5INN519@faatcrl.Faa.Gov>, frankc@tgf.tc.faa.gov (Frank Coffman) writes:
|> While auditioning a new Plymouth Minivan as a prospective buyer, I popped
|> the hood and asked the salesman about the location of the oil filter.  He
|> told me to forget about changing oil myself because it would void
|> the super-dooper powertrain warrenty if I did my own oil changes.
|> 
|> Is this correct or was he trting to divert my attention from a hard-to-get-at
|> filter?
|> 

Sounds like a complete crock to me, ask them to show it to you in
writing.  The Moss-Magnuson Act made it illegal for car manufacturers
to force you to do routine maintenance at the dealer or use OEM parts
to get warranty coverage.

-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------|
Bill Norcott			GUARDIAN POSIX project
Tandem Computers, Inc.		
10600 N. Tantau Avenue		PHONE:  (408) 285-3253
Cupertino, CA   95014		EMAIL: norcott_bill@tandem.com
From: rhaar@albert.cs.gmr.com (Bob Haar)
Newsgroups: rec.autos
Subject: Re: Why is US engine technology so retrograde?
Date: 8 Jan 93 13:54:59 GMT
Reply-To: rhaar@albert.cs.gmr.com
Organization: G.M. Research Laboratories

In article lkpk2eINNeo4@exodus.Eng.Sun.COM, tut@cairo.Eng.Sun.COM (Bill "Bill" Tuthill) writes:
|>Could someone please describe the technology tradeoffs between
|>large-displacement (mostly US) engines, and multi-valve engines
|>with smaller displacement?  I'm wondering whether US technology
|>is just behind, or whether I'm missing something.
                             ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Mainly that the U.S. and European markets are different. I don't
mean to knock the European and Japanese multi-valve engines -
there is some first rate engineering there. But for many U.S.
drivers, they solve the wrong problem.

Multi-valve, OHC engines tend to produce more peak power for a
given displacement, but they have a much narrower power band. 
Making effective use of this requires a 5 or 6 speed manual
and lots of shifting. And you cannot get the low end torque
that gives quick accelleration off the line. 

Large displacement, push rod engines produce more torque
at low speeds and a much wider powerband. 

Both approaches are good in the correct applications. But you don't
abandon a technology such as push-rod engines that works fine just
because there is some no whiz-bang design.

|>
|>When Ford needed a DOHC engine for the Taurus SHO, they just had
|>Yamaha build it.  I know Saturn produces some very nice SOHC and
|>DOHC engines, but GM doesn't seem to use these anywhere else in its
|>product line.  And Chrysler still produces mostly pushrod engines.

You are right that GM doesn't use the Saturn engines in other car lines
today, but GM does have several other DOHC multi-valve engines.

	Quad Four 2.3 liter L-4	(160 HP in  '92 Grand Am)
	3.4 V-6 (210 HP in '92 Grand Prix)
	LT-5 5.7 liter V-8 (405 HP in '93 Corvette)
	Cadillac Northstar engine
	Olds Aurora engine

(sorry I don't have any HP numbers for the last two.)
	
	



---
  	Robert Haar               InterNet : rhaar@gmr.com 
	Computer Science Dept., G.M. Research Laboratories
DISCLAIMER: Unless indicated otherwise, everything in this note is
personal opinion, not an official statement of General Motors Corp.
From: tt300zx@milton.u.washington.edu (twin turbo 300zx)
Newsgroups: rec.autos
Subject: Re: BMW318i vs AccordEX vs InfinitiG20 vs AcuraGS-R
Date: 9 Jan 1993 05:13:07 GMT
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
NNTP-Posting-Host: milton.u.washington.edu
Keywords: n

>I sure enjoy driving my beamer over a Honda Accord!  I've had a BMW318i
>for 7 years (older model) for 125,000 happy miles.  I've had very little
>mechanical problems although the maintainence is a bit pricy.
>Karen

	my opinion on this: BMW318i > AccordEX
			    AcuraGS-R > InfinitiG20
			
			    GS-R is slight better than 318i.
			    (VTEC)		        (?, NORMAL)

	    ZZZZZ ZZZZZ  ZZ      ZZZZ    ZZZ  ZZZZZ ZZ   Z     
	   ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ    ZZ ZZ   ZZ Z ZZZZZZ ZZ  Z    
	     ZZ    ZZ   Z ZZ   ZZ  ZZ  ZZ  Z    ZZ  ZZ Z      
	     ZZ    ZZ     Z   ZZ   ZZ ZZ   Z    Z   ZZZ        
	     ZZ    ZZ    Z    ZZ   ZZ ZZ   Z   Z    ZZZ        
	     Z     Z    ZZZ   ZZ  ZZ  ZZ  ZZ  ZZ    ZZZ        
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	    ZZ    ZZ      ZZ  ZZ ZZ   ZZ ZZ ZZ     Z  Z        
	    ZZ    ZZ      Z   ZZ Z    ZZ Z  ZZZZZZZZ  ZZ       
	    ZZ    ZZ  Z  Z     ZZ      ZZ   ZZZZZ Z   ZZ       
	              ZZZZ                       Z             
Newsgroups: rec.autos
From: mzimmers@netcom.com (Michael Zimmers)
Subject: Re: Car dealers
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 00:35:44 GMT

In article <1993Jan6.110906.3693@csdvax.csd.unsw.edu.au> patrick@csdvax.csd.unsw.edu.au writes:

>Toyota dealers have nothing to do with Toyota. Toyota is a manufacturer
>_not_ a vendor. 

This is technically true, but a very poor attitude for the manufacturer
to take.  I know of no other end-user commodity in which the maker gives
the suppliers the latitude that the carmakers give their dealers.  And
whether valid or not, most customers will associate the maker with the
dealer.  Were I a carmaker, I'd be living in my dealers' shorts, making
sure they weren't sullying my reputation and damaging future revenue
prospects.

The day of the quick-buck artist is thankfully ending.  There are many
examples of what I call the "Nordstrom Experience," in which customers
are willing to pay premium prices for quality product and service.
This should be especially true in the car market, where people only
buy once every few years.  I for one look forward to the decline of
Stevens Creek Toyota and Oak Tree Mazda in favor of dealers who care
about their reputations.
-- 
Michael Zimmers                                    |  Home:  408 996 1984
SoftHelp                                           |  Work:  408 996 1965
Software Solutions for Open Systems                |  Data:  408 996 1974
Newsgroups: rec.autos
From: rabson@oxford.ac.uk (David Rabson)
Newsgroups: rec.autos
Subject: Ford models
Date: 9 Jan 93 13:49:41 GMT
Organization: Oxford University Computing Service, 13 Banbury Rd, Oxford, UK
Originator: rabson@black

In the recent discussion of Ford's more popular models, there was no
mention of the Fiesta line.  What notice I've taken of them on the street
here suggests that Fiestas, with engine capacities starting at 1.1 L,
run slightly smaller than the Escorts and look a little less fancy.

Are the Fiestas not sold in North America?  Is there something wrong
with them?

Also could someone explain what these "lines" are in the first place?
Superficially, some Fiestas look more like Escorts than they do like
other Fiestas.  Both Fiestas and Escorts seem to come in two-door,
hatchback, four-door, and van-size varieties.  Some Fiestas have
frivolous decoration and names like "Flight" or "Popular."  What does
all this have to do with the underlying car?

David Rabson
soon to move to New Mexico and expecting to have to buy a car
Newsgroups: rec.autos
From: hhm@cbnewsd.cb.att.com (herschel.h.mayo)
Subject: Re: Before Buying Japanese.
Organization: Chicago Home for the Morally Challenged
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 14:56:44 GMT
Summary: 94

In article <1ieju0INNre5@cronkite.Central.Sun.COM>, dbernard@clesun.Central.Sun.COM (Dave Bernard) writes:
> Alan Denney writes:
> 
> >If you don't like the Saturns, fine, but many drivers who appear to have done 
> >far more exhaustive comparisons than you prefer the Saturns.  If rumors 
> >about the 1994 models are true, I'll end up owning one myself in a year or
> >two.  Meanwhile, I'm glad my mom got out of her deathtrap Accord into an SL1,
> >so I don't have to work on the damn Accord every few months anymore.
> 
> I hadn't heard... what are the rumors about the 94 models?
> 
> 	Dave
> 


They are trying to make them more like Japanese cars :

1. The body will be made of soft steel that will show outer rust within 
   two years, and major rust holes in three, and life- endangering structural
   corrosion in four. 

2. They will raise the price of replacement parts 500% so you can pay 
   $350 for a muffler.

3. They will narrow the wheel base so that the car will roll over 
   more easily. 

4. A portion of the profits from every car will be paid to car magazine 
   writers in the form of "consultation fees" to insure that they will
   ignore any flaws in the Saturn, inflate performance figures, and 
   create a big hoopla about any minor problem with cars built by
   other companies. 


                                               Larry Mayo
From: frankc@tgf.tc.faa.gov (Frank Coffman)
Newsgroups: rec.autos
Subject: GM Minivans to be discontinued?
Date: 11 Jan 1993 18:30:18 GMT
Organization: FAA Technical Center, Pomona, NJ	
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: offserv2.faa.gov
Summary: <subject>
Keywords: minivan

I'm completing my first cut of test driving the various minis, and today
the Ford sales rep told me that the GM Minivans were being discontinued
next year.  Any truth to this, or more sales BS ?


--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
| Frank Coffman          |FAA Technical Center, Mail Stop ACN-400c | 
| frankc@tgf.tc.faa.gov  |Atlantic City Int'l Airport, NJ 08405    |
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Xref: sparky rec.autos:31521 rec.autos.tech:17729
From: kucharsk@solbourne.com (William Kucharski)
Newsgroups: rec.autos,rec.autos.tech
Subject: Re: What is the resonable oil comsumption?
Date: 11 Jan 1993 19:11:54 -0700
Organization: Solbourne Computer, Inc., Longmont, CO
Distribution: usa
NNTP-Posting-Host: anthrax-fddi.solbourne.com

While reading article <1993Jan11.152320.16193@dg-rtp.dg.com>, I noticed that
brownr@hydra.rtp.dg.com (Randy Brown) said the following:
 >I would not call 1 quart/1000 miles normal for any reasonably new car.

How about an RX-7?  :-)
-- 
| William Kucharski, Solbourne Computer, Inc.     | Opinions expressed herein
| Internet: kucharsk@solbourne.com   Ham: N0OKQ   | are MINE alone, NOT those
| Snail Mail: 1900 Pike Road, Longmont, CO  80501 | of Solbourne Computer, Inc.
| President, "Just the Ten of Us" Fan Club        | "Dittos from Longmont, CO"
Newsgroups: osu.for-sale,rec.autos