HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: scottj@magic.dml.georgetown.edu (John L. Scott)
Subject: Re: Homeschooling (was  Re: Education and the Environment by Gregory A. Smith)
Followup-To: rec.arts.books
Organization: J. Random Misconfigured Site
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 13:38:31 GMT
X-Posted-From: iamac-1.dml.georgetown.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In article <1id95nINNdbc@agate.berkeley.edu>, spp@zabriskie.berkeley.edu
(Steve Pope) wrote:
> Actually it's the homeschoolers who have a conservative
> social agenda, not the educators who have a liberal one.
> 
> I was reading (article in New Yorker, Nov 9 1992) about
> how the recently failed anti-gay initiative in Oregon
> (measure 9) had as part of its initial constituency
> "150,000 homeschoolers".   Bleahh.

Therefore, Mike Morris, Heather Henderson, and I, as homeschool advocates,
must be in favor of anti-gay initiatives, right?  Different people
homeschool for many different reasons.  A large percentage are religious
fundamentalists who homeschool for religious reasons, and many of these do
indeed have a conservative social agenda.  As an atheist libertarian, I
have no problem with gays and would never support discriminatory
initiatives.  There are many homeschoolers who find such measures as
disgusting as you do.  Making such generalizations about homeschoolers is
as ludicrous as claiming that all Oregonians are homophobes because some of
them supported Measure 9.

> So you don't like the schools in Sonoma County.  You
> are free to move out of the state, y'know.

True.  He is also free to live in the county and complain about it.  He is
also free to homeschool.  I have never understood the "Love it or leave it"
mentality.

--John L. Scott
From: rachel@phsbbs.princeton.nj.us (Rachel M. Kadel)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Computers not a substitute for books
Date: Thu, 07 Jan 93 21:18:53 EST
Organization: Princeton High School, Princeton, New Jersey

freek@phil.ruu.nl (Freek Wiedijk) writes:

> koosman@UTKUX1.UTK.EDU (Toby Koosman) writes:
> >This is a poor defense of technology from my view, demonstrating the sorry
> >pass we've come to on account of sound reproduction technology, in that the
> >normal way to appreciate music is assumed to be, not witnessing musicians
> >playing their instruments before you, but hearing recorded music.  
> >
> >Not that this is analogous to the digitalization of books.
> 
> You mean that listening to story telling is superior to book
> reading?
> 
> Freek
> --
> Third theory of Phenomenal Dynamics:  The difference between
> a symbol and an object is quantitative, not qualitative.

Of course!  Of course, when you can get it, a truly skilled storytelling 
session is ever so much more rewarding than reading a book.  There are so 
many additional dimensions in a telling of a classic story by a good 
storyteller.  Even reading a book aloud between two (or more) people is 
preferable as an experience to reading it to one's self.  Solitary book 
reading has become more prevalent mostly as a matter of convenience:  You 
can read what you want to read when you want to read it, rather than 
waiting to find someone to share it with.  (Don't get me wrong:  I spend 
most of my spare time [Ha!] reading to myself, and have for many years.)

                                        Rachel Meredith Kadel

There's an infinite number of monkeys at the door wanting to show us the 
script to Hamlet they've worked out...The school won't even LISTEN to me 
, much less let me speak for it...rachel@phsbbs.princeton.nj.us
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: abl@cybill.inesc.pt (Antonio Leal)
Subject: Re: Bookstores in London?
Organization: INESC - Inst. Eng. Sistemas e Computadores, LISBOA. PORTUGAL.
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 14:56:00 GMT

botteron@pop-tarts.ai.mit.edu (Carol J. Botteron) writes:

   Is there a list of London bookstores?  

   If so, I'd appreciate it if someone could email it to me or repost it.

   In case there isn't, any recommendations?  All kinds of books!


Get off the tube at Charing Cross Road, and range a few hundred
yards north and south.  There's Murder One, Foyles, Books Etc.,
Waterstone, and numerous second-hand and discount places.

The best (largest & better organized) store is probably the
University Dillon's, which is a little bit farther north, on a side
street leading to Tavistock Square.

--
Antonio B. Leal		| IST / INESC
+351.1.310 0300		| R. Alves Redol 9, 1000 Lisboa
abl@inesc.pt		| Portugal
From: cramer@optilink.COM (Clayton Cramer)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Homophobia (really not about  Homeschooling)
Date: 12 Jan 93 20:40:20 GMT
Organization: Optilink Corporation, Petaluma, CA

In article <1993Jan7.205354.28083@nas.nasa.gov>, wismith@amelia.nas.nasa.gov (William R. Smith) writes:
> John Ewing writes:
# 	I correct this misunderstanding every time I see it.
# 
# 	The intent of these measures was not to take away "equal
# 	protection" from some "minority" groups.
# 
# 	The intent is to prevent certain people, that exhibit
# 	"certain behaviors" (read: "any unique behavior at all that
# 	one choses to engage in -- e.g.  reading mystery novels"), from
# 	gaining an unfair advantage under the law that the rest of the
# 	population does not enjoy (the behavior being focused
# 	on here is sexual activity with another of the same sex).  
# 	
# The Oregon Measure was quite a bit stronger than that.  It declared
# that "reading mystery novels" was wrong and devient behavior and 
# required that no one in public schools be allowed to teach otherwise.

And doubtless the reason it failed.  Many conservatives opposed it
because, unlike Colorado's initiative, Oregon's Measure 9 was not
laissez faire -- it required the government to DO something.  The
last thing the world needs is more government action.

# William Sburgfort Smith



-- 
Clayton E. Cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer  My opinions, all mine!
"When freedom destroys order, order will destroy freedom." -- Eric Hoffer
Not a goal, just a statement of reality.
From: jzimm@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Joann Zimmerman)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Byron
Date: 11 Jan 93 00:37:46 GMT
Organization: UT Art History
X-UserAgent: Nuntius v1.1

Francis' mention of Ada Lovelace by way of _The Difference Engine_
reminds me of a question I was intending to ask anyway:

What is a good critical biography of Byron? I'd like something fairly
recent that discusses both the man and his works.
--

"They like sitting around reading all the books there are. And then they 
love arguing about them. Some of those arguments go on for millenium 
after millenium. It just seems to keep them young, for some reason, 
arguing about books." -- Julian Barnes          

Joann Zimmerman (jzimm@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: lew@cbnewsd.cb.att.com (lewis.h.mammel..jr)
Subject: Re: _Science: Good, Bad, and Bogus_ (was Re: Self-knowledge of bookstore workers & others
Organization: AT&T
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 05:10:13 GMT
Summary: Thank you
Keywords: curious areas of ignorance

In article <1993Jan7.000624.17601@blaze.cs.jhu.edu>, callahan@biffvm.cs.jhu.edu (Paul Callahan) writes:
> lew@cbnewsd.cb.att.com (lewis.h.mammel..jr) writes:
> 
> >I guess you're referring to The_Irrelevance_of_Arthur_Conan_Doyle,
> >in which MG advances the theory that Doyle COULDN'T have written
> >the Holmes stories because he's so obviously undevoted to rationality.
> 
> >Is this as crackpot as it seems ? I've never heard of this elsewhere.
> >Also, MG notes that it is commonly accepted that Cervantes didn't
> >actually write Don Quixote. Is this true ?
> 
> I kind of thought (call me naive) that Gardner was joking.

Call who naive? After another look, I'm sure you're right.
He starts off with the Cervantes stuff, which is an obvious
joke - unless you read it very sloppily ( ahem. ) There are
some serious sounding statements later, but the cues are there.

Also, it's The_Irrelevance_of_Conan_Doyle ( no Arthur. ) 
It was a reprint from some "Baker Street" rag, so that's another
cue. I was partly misled by the general debunking context of
the collection.

Let's see, any other excuses? Well, the print was really tiny :-)

I'm glad I mentioned it! Thanks.

Lew Mammel, Jr.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: msmorris@watsci.UWaterloo.ca (Mike Morris)
Subject: Re: Homophobia
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 01:47:12 GMT

                                   Sunday, the 10th of January, 1993

Mike Godwin asked:
    Should they be allowed to fire an employee if they discover he's Jewish?
    What if they feel that Jews undermine their "flaming fundie image"?

I said:
  I think I've already said that they should be ``allowed'' to 
  do this, yes.

Mike responds:
  In that case, I find it easy to imagine a reinstantiation of the 
  Nuremburg race laws.

Ahh, Godwin's Rule? There is a politics where the existence of a Right
is purely a limitation on the power of *government* to violate it,
not a warrant for government to force what the majority thinks is
that Right's equal exercise on individuals.

Personally, I think the claim of this warrant for some out
of the whole package of non-discrimination and civil rights
laws, has guaranteed an extra twenty years of racial tension
in the States.

                 Mike Morris
          (msmorris@watsci.uwaterloo.ca)


Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: peterc@sour.sw.oz.au.sw.oz.au (Peter Chubb,x114,6982322,3982735)
Subject: Re: academic settings
Organization: Softway Pty Ltd
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 93 04:26:01 GMT
Originator: peterc@sour.sw.oz.au

And there's always Dorothy Sayer's `Gaudy Night', set in a Women's college in 
Oxford.

Peter C.
From: mlf@unlinfo.unl.edu (mary flaglelee)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Malcolm X-speeches
Date: 8 Jan 1993 22:48:10 GMT
Organization: University of Nebraska--Lincoln	
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: unlinfo.unl.edu
Keywords: Malcolm X

Did a search of the U. library and found these two books.  I also have
been looking for a book of Malcolm's Harvard speeches, but didn't know
the name or publisher.

Malcolm X Talks to Young People:  Speeches in the US, Britain, and 
Africa
Published:  New York, Pathfinder Press, 1991

The Speeches of Malcolm X at Harvard
Published:  New York, W. Marrow, 1968

mflagle@grasplink.unl.edu
From: hoosiers@carson.u.washington.edu (Mary Loveless)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Abulafia
Date: 4 Jan 1993 22:33:13 GMT
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
NNTP-Posting-Host: carson.u.washington.edu

In article <1993Jan1.000324.17371@midway.uchicago.edu>
elle@midway.uchicago.edu writes: 

>>[Sean Philip Engelson posts for a friend, 
>>  on the Kabbalist Abraham Abulafia]
>
>I am deeply humbled.  I thought Abulafia was one of Michener's
>invented characters in _The Source_; I should go back and see which
>of the other characters I thought fictional actually existed.
>
>Those I knew were real include Kings David and Herod; General/Emperor
>Vespasian; Flavius Josephus; Queen/Saint Helena.  Those are just from
>memory -- I'm probably missing a couple.
>
>Ellen Keyne Seebacher \/             elle@midway.uchicago.edu
>Anyone else here as devout admirer of _The Source_ as I?  I first read
>it at age ten (both the book and I, as it happens), while laid up for
>a week with a severe allergic reaction.  I've been rereading chapters
>from it ever since, and I'm sure I'd put it near the top of any Top Ten
>(or Five) list I might construct.

I no longer have _Lucia in London_, or _The Worshipful Lucia_.  I am
convinced that in one of these, someone has a spirit guide named Abulafia.
Perhaps a more concentrated effort to replace the missing volumes?

Mary Loveless  hoosiers@carson.u.washington.edu
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
All of my opinions are self-righteously my own and **certainly** have
nothing to do with the University of Washington.
*"Too much of a good thing can be *wonderful*."  Mae West
*"I wonder how I'd look in *Madonna's* underwear."  Zippy the Pinhead
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: s1mbm@isuvax.iastate.edu (michael bruce mcdonald)
Subject: Re: Paul Johnson (was Paglia)
Reply-To: s1mbm@isuvax.iastate.edu
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, Iowa
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 10:18:24 GMT

In article <1ijesiINNiav@phakt.usc.edu>, rhogan@phakt.usc.edu (Ron Hogan) writes:
>Tim Starr writes:
>in response to Ron H>
>>}It's like the Albert Goldman school of intellectual history-- not so much
>>}sunlight being the best disnfectant as dragging historical figures through
>>}the mud.
>
>>They dragged themselves through the mud.  Johnson just exposed it.
>
>That, of course, hinges on whether or not we agree on the nature of 'mud'.


"The progress toward totalitarianism arose, and continues to arise, because of
society's refusal to be shit!"   --Kathy Acker, "left" postmodern writer of
                                                unusual fiction


"The intellectuals Johnson degrades are great precisely because they were
willing to explore the mud."     --mbm






>The main thing, which Mike has pointed out as well, as that a good number
>of the incidents with which Johnson indicts his subjects aren't relevant
>to the core of their intellectual output, in the same way that Albert
>Goldman's biographies of Elvis and Lennon contribute little, if anything,
>to a serious discussion of their cultural contributions.
>
>To pick an example that Johnson ignores (at least I think so, it's been
>a while since I read the book): Norman Mailer stabbed one of his wives,
>treated a lot of people like shit, and sponsored the release of a guy
>whose later actions proved that he should not have been let out of prison.
>
>(the guy's last name was Abbott, I forget the full name.  Mailer read some
>of his writing, and urged for his parole.  Less than a month after that
>parole was obtained, Abbott killed another guy)
>
>Does any of this have anything to do with Mailer's talent as a writer?
>
>Ron
>of course, it can lead to an interesting
>interpretation of "The White Negro".
>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: wismith@amelia.nas.nasa.gov (William R. Smith)
Subject: Re: Celebrating McGonagall
Organization: NAS, NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 93 16:13:56 GMT

John McCarthy writes:

	Sorry, but I am always caught out in ignorance of Monty Python. 
	Is there a Cliff's Notes to Monty Python.



I have a book called "All the Words" which has the scripts for many
of the Monty Python routines.  The shows are much funnier than the
scripts.  Hard to imagine a "funny walk contest" without having seen
a sample, what?

I read a couple of my favorites and gave up.  Could be useful for
settling r.a.b. arguments though.


Notice the book reference?



William Sburgfort Smith
Intel, SSD

Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: emma@Csli.Stanford.EDU (Emma Pease)
Subject: Re: Whatever happened to the LOORSWALOB???
Organization: Stanford University CSLI
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 00:17:24 GMT

In <C0pI63.776@cck.coventry.ac.uk> cei308@cck.coventry.ac.uk (Jet Girl) writes:


>Hey folks...

>I've been on my Christmas vacation over the past three weeks and I get
>back and find that the LOORSWALOB seem to have disappeared!!!!

>What has happened????  Did they all get married to IBM salesmen after all???

>Oh well...back to reading some of the books I got for Christmas - Radclyffe
>Hall's "The Well Of Loneliness" is particually good...

We are reading books as we were soundly berated for not having enough
books in the discussion.  I've read "Cranford" by Elizabeth Gaskell on
the recommendation of a fellow Loorswalobian so there to those who
thought we weren't discussing books.

Last Saturday I bought "Evelina" by Fanny Burney and "Lusiads" (for
something historical and because it was also mentioned in a recent rab
article); I'm not far enough in either to make a recommendation yet.
I decided to read "Evelina" now for several reasons (a) I recently
read a book on George III which used her diary as a source, (b) on my
last trip to England I visited Samuel Johnson's house in London and
Fanny Burney was mentioned in several places, and (c) the book was
prominent on the shelf I was browsing over.

From the parlour of,

Emma
emma@csli.stanford.edu
From: bh419@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ted B Samsel)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: "Ex" Catholics (was Re: 92 in rabreview)
Date: 5 Jan 1993 11:52:51 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


How about "My God does the hanky panky"?
  (a lapsed Lut'ran>
-- 
Ted....
From: sjbuckle@minster.york.ac.uk
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Quiz question
Date: 4 Jan 93 12:37:23 GMT
Organization: Department of Computer Science, University of York, England

Does anyone know the answer to the following question, which has appeared in a
newspaper quiz ?

   Who wrote the racing mystery "Point Break" ?

We haven't been able to find a book of that name and I doubt it can refer to
the recent film of the same name. The question may be misprinted because there's
a book called "Point Blank". If anyone knows any better, or any different, I
would be very grateful if they could E-Mail their information to
sjbuckle@minster.york.ac.uk. Thanks very much.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: serdar@fawlty8.eng.monash.edu.au (Serdar Boztas)
Subject: Re: academic settings
Organization: Monash University, Melb., Australia.
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 04:15:38 GMT

Malcolm Bradbury's _The History Man_.

Serdar
-- 
Serdar Boztas 
serdar@fawlty8.eng.monash.edu.au 
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: msmorris@watsci.UWaterloo.ca (Mike Morris)
Subject: Re: Homophobia (really not about  Homeschooling)
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 04:48:41 GMT

                                     Wednesday, the 6th of January, 1993

Laurie Mann writes:
 That's impossible to say for sure.  I would have voted against either
 had I lived in either state.  But you're being extremely...ummm...precise
 about this.  I would rather live in a society that didn't demand that
 subgroups be mentioned with regards to laws.

But, the precision is very, very important. It concerns the distinction
between something that is a right and something that is not a right.
Since I believe this distinction has a moral basis (call it Natural
Law, if you like Locke's usage), and that it is not a mere democratically
agreed-upon convention, I would cast my vote, insisting that this
distinction be maintained---i.e. I would care about the precise wording
of the measure.

As I've said, I've heard the two measures characterized a number of
times now, in very different ways. Gay friends have been up in arms about
the measures as actively discriminatory against the rights of gays (but
not able to give precise detail), and then I've heard right-wingers
on the radio characterizing either measure as merely denying special
privileges to gays (also not giving precise detail).

  However, there has been LOTS of bashing on the basis of religion,
  on the basis of sex, on the basis of race, on the basis of ethnic origin, on  
  the basis of age, and, yes, on the basis of sexual orientation.  Since these  
  abuses still happen, I guess we need to state in our laws that we really DO  
  MEAN that you shouldn't discriminate and get away with it legally.

Umm, again, precision is lacking. For one thing, I don't see the slightest
thing wrong with discrimination on the basis of religion. I dislike
religious fundamentalists particularly. I also claim that this is a very
reasoned and reasonable dislike. And of course it all depends
on what one means (precisely) by ``discrimination''. I don't advocate
that religious fundamentalists should be deprived of, say, their
right to life. But I also don't think the laws ought to require me
to hire one (to associate with one against my better judgment). And
I'll be damned if the laws are ever going to require me not speak ill
of them.

                      Mike Morris
               (msmorris@watsci.uwaterloo.ca)
From: cooneys@gw.wmich.edu
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: academic settings
Date: 12 Jan 93 23:22:12 EST
Organization: Western Michigan University

> 
>   JL> Can anyone recommend other books set in academia? [Besides SMALL
>   JL> WORLD] Any genre will do.  I'll post the list.
> 


I don't think anyone has yet mentioned two of my favorites 
(though I admit it's quite a few years since I reread them):
THE GROVES OF ACADEME by Mary MacCarthy, and PICTURES FROM 
AN INSTITUTION by Randall Jarrell.

And isn't Malcolm Bradbury's EATING PEOPLE IS WRONG an 
academic novel? I believe so ...

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
               -- Seamus Cooney, Graduate Director
		  Department of English
		  Western Michigan University, Kalamazoo, MI 49008
		  e-mail: COONEYS@gw.wmich.edu
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: TROUTMAN@vmd.cso.uiuc.edu
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: ISBN information wanted
Date: 5 Jan 93 15:49:35 GMT
Article-I.D.: vmd.16B4D8A37.TROUTMAN
Organization: C.C.S.O.


 
In article <cfGNmO200WBM81eEsP@andrew.cmu.edu>
lc1r+@andrew.cmu.edu (Lori Cole) writes:
 
>Surprisingly, not all library databases include ISBN's, even when one
>asks for the full record!  I did editorial assisting/annotating for the
>soon-to-be-published updated American Historical Association _Guide to
>Historical Literature_ where I had to search for ISBN's for a
>preliminary list of entries and it was a very frustrating process.
>Hence Mr. Stoddard's rather glib answer is not really very useful, much
>less accurate.
>
>Lori Cole
 
Well, all I know is that searching ILLINET Online (garcon.cso.uiuc.edu 620
or 128.174.5.58 620) by ISBN is very easy.  All you do is enter "F I" followed
by the ISBN number.  A search like:
 
F I 014004387X
 
produces:
 
     Davies, Robertson, 1913-
     Fifth business / Robertson Davies. :New York: : Penguin Books,
1977.
     266 p. ; 18 cm.
     The first of three linked novels, the others being The manticore,
1972, and World of wonders, c1975
     ISBN  014004387X
      I. Title.
     ocm02-985352
 
With the capture facility on, one could create a nice little database
without having to enter lots of data.  ILLINET Online has over 8 million
records, so it's quite large.
 
Leslie Troutman
Music User-Services Coordinator
University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
EMAIL: TROUTMAN@VMD.CSO.UIUC.EDU
VOICE: 217-244-4071
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: sanjiva@ecrc.de (Sanjiva Prasad)
Subject: Re: Celebrating McGonagall
Reply-To: sanjiva@ecrc.de (Sanjiva Prasad)
Organization: European Computer-Industry Research Centre, Munich
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 22:31:31 GMT

Um, excuse the ignorance, but is McGonagall the poet that a Certain British
TV Program once did a feature on?  The Scots poet who wrote such masterpieces
as  "If ye lend me fiyve bob till Thursdae..." ?


--
Sanjiva Prasad,  Guest Magus				E-mail: sanjiva@ecrc.de
European Computer Industry Research Centre		Off: +49 89 92 69 91 58
Arabellastrasse 17					Fax: +49 89 92 69 91 70
8000 Muenchen 81, Germany				Res: +49 89 16 33 59
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer)
Subject: Re: Paglia (was: Cross-Writing)
Keywords: Paglia (again!), rape
Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting, Cambridge MA
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1993 06:09:23 GMT

In article <1993Jan10.012031.15616@cheshire.oxy.edu> rooney@cheshire.oxy.edu (Michael Sean Rooney) writes:
>	How can knuckling under to a purported biological determinism
>ever be empowering to anyone?  Holding that men "just can't help themselves"
>(which is precisely what Paglia's position amounts to) rather gives the
>lie to Heather's putative liberalism (cf. the exchange with Steve Dyer).

I don't get the sense that Paglia is saying that; she's trying for something
a bit more nuanced.  At no point does she absolve men from moral respon-
sibility for their actions.

-- 
Steve Dyer
dyer@ursa-major.spdcc.com aka {ima,harvard,rayssd,linus,m2c}!spdcc!dyer
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books