Newsgroups: misc.education,soc.culture.african.american
From: mfriedma@uucp (Michael Friedman)
Subject: Re: What A White Person Learned in College About AfAm Culture
Organization: Oracle Corporation
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 18:45:03 GMT
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by an unauthenticated user
              at Oracle Corporation.  The opinions expressed are those
              of the user and not necessarily those of Oracle.

In article <y2kNVB1w165w@netlink.cts.com> galan@netlink.cts.com (Greg Gross) writes:
>mfriedma@uucp (Michael Friedman) writes:

>> In article <RZuaVB3w165w@netlink.cts.com> galan@netlink.cts.com (Greg Gross) 
>> >mfriedma@uucp (Michael Friedman) writes:

>> >> Let me point you to the examples of Catholics, Orientals, Jews,
>> >> Italians, and Irish.  All of these groups once faced prejudice in the US.
>> >> Does anyone remember the line from Blazing Saddles when the railroad
>> >> workers want to live in the town?  "We'll take the niggers and the
>> >> chinks but no deal on the Micks."  Also, unless you are a historical
>> >> ignoramus, you are aware of the anti-Catholic riots in the 1800s.

>> >> Today, although there are still problems, all five of these groups are
>> >> pretty much accepted into American society.  They intermarry with each
>> >> other and with the original WASPs.  No one seriously claims that they
>> >> need affirmative action or much in the way of special protection.

>> >> This was all done without Catholic Student Unions, Oriental History
>> >> classes, affirmative action for Jews, anti-discrimmination laws for
>> >> Italians, or anti-hate crime laws for the Irish.  And it has taken.

>> >I wonder why whites persist in lumping together every ethnic or religious 
>> >minority in the country and talking about their experiences as if they 
>> >were all alike?

>> I challenge you to find anyone who does this.

>Challenge accepted. Answer: Look in the mirror and at your own original
>post: "...Catholics, Orientals, Jews, Italians and Irish. All of these 
>groups once faced prejudice in the US."

Do you deny that statement?  If so you are totally ignorant of
American history.  This also does not lump all these groups together
and claim that their experiences were all alike.  The differences
range from the trivial (Orientals tended to settle in the West -
California and Hawaii whereas the other groups tended to settle in the
Northeast) to significant (Orientals were a racial minority.
Catholics were a religious minority.  Italians and Irish were ethnic
minorities who also belonged to a religious minority.  Jews were both
a religious and an ethnic minority.)

>> What you will find is people who compare different religious and
>> ethnic minorities and their experiences in order to draw more general
>> conclusions and make judgments about appropriate courses of action for
>> the future.

>> After all, if you aren't basing your conclusions about what ought to
>> be done on past human experience what are you basing it on?

>> >Catholics, Asians, Italians, Irish, Jews have all encountered their hare 
>> >of problems in the great American "melting pot," Michael, but please 
>> >don't try to sell me on the idea that all their experiences were equal in 
>> >scope or degree.

>> I never did.

>See above...again.

I challenge you to find a place where I say that their experiences
were equal in scope or degree.  I did not and you are lying if you say
I did.

>> >And for God's sake, don't insult people's intelligence 
>> >by trying to suggest that the oppressive legacy of ANY of them was the 
>> >same as ours, or even all that similar. 

>> The same?  Of course not.  Similar?  Definitely.  Moreover, the
>> situations they had to deal with, although very different from that of
>> Blacks 150 years ago, bears great similarities to the problems Blacks
>> faced from WWI or so until today.

>Such as?

Discrimminatory laws.  Widespread discrimmination by private citizens
and corporations.  A belief by members of the majority that members of
these minorities were intellectually inferior and inherently violent
and criminal.  Strong opposition by the majority to intermarriage.
Violent attacks by members of the majority with little or no police
response.

Good enough?

>> >The history says otherwise.

>What you believe is your problem. I know about the anti-Catholic riots of 
>the 1800s. I also know that the Ku Klux Klan originally included 
>Catholics on their hate list -- although when it came to lynching, they 
>usually showed a decided preference for dark meat...

Fair enough.  Although the Know-Nothings were a lot more significant
than the KKK as far as Catholics were concerned.  After all, when's
the last time we had an anti-Black riot by members of the majority?
(In other words, DC doesn't count.)

So explain why you disagree with me.
-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am not an official Oracle spokesman.  I speak for myself and no one else.
Newsgroups: misc.education