From: mara@panix.COM (Mara Chibnik)
Subject: Re: my two cents about on
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Organization: (getting there)
Date: 25 Dec 92 04:17:52 GMT

The issue is how it can be that women-only groups might be okay but
men-only groups aren't.

goid@zooid.guild.ORG (Will Steeves) wrote:
   >>>Perhaps this was true of only men's groups in the past, but with the
   >>>growing power base in the women's movement, it seems that the same
   >>>suspicions can now also be drawn about women-only groups...
I said:
  >>I had in mind institutions like Harvard, Princeton, and Yale.
  >>The Century Club.  Assorted sports clubs.  Business and
  >>professional organizations (like Rotary International)
  >>that had explicit charters restricting membership to men.
mfterman@phoenix.princeton.EDU (Mutant for Hire) writes:
 >You forgot the Boy Scouts. :)

No, I didn't forget them.  I was talking about institutions of
unquestionable established power.  That is the whole issue.  And
that is why your comments are vacuous:

 >The problem is, that any group with restrictive membership allows
 >social events where people can form connections and make deals that
 >cut off people outside of that gender.

Exactly.  Historically, the groups with the power have included men
and excluded women, which is precisely why men-only groups have
fallen under suspicion.

 >It is worth pointing out that there are Organization/Society of/for
 >Women <insert professional class> designed for the betterment of women
 >in various professions that tend to be dominated by men. One may
 >argue quite reasonably that these groups are designed to help
 >women deal with the problems of being women in a field where their
 >gender is a detriment, but the real question is whether there is
 >any legal reason why a similar organization for men could not be
 >allowed without disallowing ones for women in a non-gender-biased
 >law?

Is this a question or a statement?  The power imbalance associated
with gender has not been eliminated.  Even Clinton never seriously
considered a woman for Secretary of State or Secretary of Defense--
because women don't look right for those jobs.  Those are men's
jobs-- still.  That's why men-only groups are still suspect.

 >Also, women talk about all these women-only groups that make them
 >feel safe and free to interact socially, but I also see other women
 >feeling good about breaking open some male-only social organization
 >such as one of the Princeton eating clubs. What if men want to have
 >a male-only space that they feel is safe from women?

It happens, and it is acceptable when it looks to most of the world
as though the group in question isn't likely to become a back-stage
power base.

  >>I would be most interested to see a comparable list of powerful
  >>institutions on local, regional, national and international levels
  >>that forbid access to men.

 >Your whole argument is based on the fact that women are less powerful
 >than men, hence women-only organizations can't do any of the things
 >that male-only organizations can do. Remembering that one should never
 >confuse virtue with lack of opportunity to sin, the question is as
 >women improve their status will this situation always be the case?

I'd be most grateful to see the world reach that stage, thank you.

 >Also, if we are to have any pretense of equality under the law,
 >laws about exclusionary organizations have to be written in such
 >a form that distinct genders aren't written, we have to have some
 >sort of policy on single-gender groups. Which way should the law
 >fall, for or against them?

This is the dilemma, of course.  But it isn't the topic I was
discussing.  Men's gyms have been networking power bases.  As I said
in my last article, Living Well Lady doesn't cut it.
--

  Mara Chibnik
  mara@panix.com                Life is too important to be taken seriously.



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