HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: Re: Food in sea novels
From: kmwheeler@ualr.edu
Date: 8 Sep 92 18:59:07 GMT
Organization: University of Arkansas at Little Rock

In article <1992Sep4.174636.22200@u.washington.edu>, grimoire@byron.u.washington.edu (John Greer) writes:
> 
> 
> I haven't tried this one yet, nor do I have a "translation", but it
> apparently produces some sort of primeval bouillon cube.  Anyone out
> there done something of this sort?
> 
> --Sara Greer
> (by way of her spouse's account)
> 

My great-grandfather was something of an adventurer/prospector, and my
family has told me stories of his travels.  He would boil coffee until
nothing remained but a thick goop, dry the goop, cut it into squares
and have instant coffee.

I seemed to have inherited some of his adventuring tendencies, but the 
only 'traditional' expedition food I make is hardtack.

Keith
From: Pat.Churchill@bbs.actrix.gen.nz
Subject: Re: galingale (aka galinga)
Organization: Actrix Information Exchange
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 04:57:45 GMT


You will also see the powdered formn around in the Conimex spice range
(and others) where it is also called *laos*
-- 
| The floggings will continue until morale improves
| Pat.Churchill@bbs.actrix.gen.nz (Pat Churchill, Wellington, New Zealand)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: as571@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (William J. Emblom)
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: Help: Food on Tall Ships?
Date: 15 Sep 1992 05:58:29 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


Okay, here is a scenario for all you historical reenactment folks.
Tall ship, early 19th century, crewed by 20, including captain, 
a two-burner galley, and no refrigeration.  What kind of meals can
be prepared to feed 20 people?

The above is the problem that my sister is facing.  I'd appreciate
any references that address the question of how people were fed on
early sailing vessels.  The local library doesn't have such info 
listed.

If possible, could people reply to me privately at the address 
below?  

Thanks,

Kate Emblom
kemblom@ucs.indiana.edu
kemblom@silver.indiana.edu

--
From: hooverb@h.cs.wvu.wvnet.edu (Bruce Hoover,Armstrong)
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: Re: galingale (aka galinga)
Date: 10 Sep 92 03:11:06 GMT
Originator: hooverb@a.cs.wvu.wvnet.edu

Galangal is a rhizome (like ginger). If you are really lucky, you may
find it fresh at a good oriental grocers. I suspect that you can also
keep it alive and growing, just as you can with ginger. (Sand in a dark
place, etc.). 

My local International Grocer quit carrying the fresh, due to lack of
demand, but the dried slices cost 99 cents for a two ounce package. As
noted earlier, though, be sure to soak it before using!

Bruce Hoover
From: genetic+@pitt.edu (Dr. Dave)
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: Re: toxins in food
Date: 7 Sep 92 14:52:56 GMT
Organization: Department of Industrial Engineering

Thus spake leighann@sybase.com (Leigh Ann Hussey):

>Along this line, I've often wondered.  How do people discover that foods
>that require an immense amount of processing to make them good to eat,
>actually are good to eat?  What possesses them to take the time to
>figure out how much processing it takes?  Simple hunger is probably not
>the answer, when other, more easily and immediately eaten foods are
>around.  

I think, in most cases, you've hit the nail on the head.  These discoveries
are made when there *aren't* any other foods available.

The one that has always fascinated me is the olive.  It takes a great deal
of culinary abuse to turn a fresh olive into food.  Your example of tapioca
is, of course, even more extreme.

Do you happen to know the geographic origins of tapioca-eating?  Or an
approximate time when it began?  Is it pre-historic, like the olive?


-- 
      David M. Tate      | From my dugout sleep I fell into the Game
 dtate@unix.cis.pitt.edu | And I crouched in the circle while my insides froze
 Randall 'Chico' Jarrell | One out from death, one hit from dreamt-of glory
"Death of a Pinch Hitter"| I woke to 'Strike One!' and the nightmare sliders...
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
From: klier@iscsvax.uni.edu
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: Re: Quote in my .sig
Date: 15 Sep 92 13:24:18 -0500
Distribution: world
Organization: University of Northern Iowa

ciaran@aldhfn.akron.oh.us (Skip Watson) writes:
> 	Hops was a plant whose use spread rather rapidly. It turns up in a
> lot of things due its preservative abilities. It not only makes it way
> into ale, but also mead, herb teas, poor wines, and even food. And for
> some reason the English loved the taste of it.

BTW, there are exactly two genera in the Cannabaceae (Cannabinaceae if
you must), the marijuana family.

One is Cannabis, with 1 species, C. sativa.   Marijuana or hemp.

The other genus is Humulus, hops, with 4 species.  Humulus lupulus is
common (or brewing) hops.

Both Cannabis and Humulus have nice resin-secreting trichomes (plant
hairs)-- the "active ingredient" in both cases is in the resin.
Don't know if anyone has tried substituting Cannabis in flavoring beer,
but I'll bet it's been tried...

Botanically yours,

       Kay Klier
From: leighann@sybase.com (Leigh Ann Hussey)
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: Re: Food in sea novels
Date: 4 Sep 92 19:51:03 GMT
Organization: Sybase, Inc.

In article <17uav6INNc8s@agate.berkeley.edu> cozzlab@garnet.berkeley.edu writes:
>with a chicken which is stuffed with a quail which is stuffed with a lark,
>etc., all wrapped in a piecrust and sealed with melted fat.  The outside
>would get rather moldy during the long voyage, but you carved open the
>pie and the meat inside was still good.  AT LEAST, THAT WAS THE THEORY!
>

It's more than theory; I've proven it in practise.  The idea of sealing
up meat in a blanket of grease is the same as behind "potted" meat.
It'll harden your arteries just to look at the stuff, but the grease
certainly seems to keep untoward things out.  Might harbor anaerobic
bacteria, I suppose, but I'm still eating off my pot of pork and haven't
gotten sick from it yet (though I get sick _of_ it sometimes, which is
why it's taken me a while to get through it...;-)

Cheers,
	- Leigh Ann


Leigh Ann Hussey                                      leighann@sybase.com
"Turkeys, heresy, hops and beer / All came to England in the one year."
What year was it?
Answer: 1520
From: leighann@sybase.com (Leigh Ann Hussey)
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: Re: Mead recipes?
Date: 3 Sep 92 17:05:25 GMT
Organization: Sybase, Inc.

In article <6004@transfer.stratus.com> jsco@buzzardroost.az.stratus.com (Jeff Scott) writes:
>I have made a few batches and while they taste wonderful, how does one  
>know what "traditional mead" is supposed to taste like? Is there a  
>commercial product that you can buy to compare the homemade against?
>

There are two that I know of, Gibson's (which I prefer) and Chaucer's
(which is a little too heavy for my taste).  I've seen them occasionally
at Liquor Barn, but I think that's only a local chain...

Slainte!
	- Leigh Ann

Leigh Ann Hussey                                      leighann@sybase.com
"Turkeys, heresy, hops and beer / All came to England in the one year."
What year was it?
Answer: 1520
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
From: delwiche@sunflower.bio.indiana.edu (Charles Delwiche)
Subject: Re: Help: Food on Tall Ships?
Organization: Biology, Indiana University - Bloomington
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1992 00:49:06 GMT

In article <193u25INNebe@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> as571@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (William J. Emblom) writes:
>
>Okay, here is a scenario for all you historical reenactment folks.
>Tall ship, early 19th century, crewed by 20, including captain, 
>a two-burner galley, and no refrigeration.  What kind of meals can
>be prepared to feed 20 people?
>

I highly recommend Richard Henry Dana's _Two Years Before the Mast_.
I don't know if it is currently in print, but it should be available
in both full and abridged form in any decent library.  It is a 19th
century account of life on a tall ship, makes for very entertaining
reading, and the book itself is of historical significance (it sparked
a reform of the merchant marine).  I'm not actually certain it talks
about what they ate, but I seem to recall a section describing their
food.



-- 
-------
Charles F. Delwiche, Dept. of Biology        |"We admit no more causes...
Indiana University, Bloomington, IN 47405    |than such as are both true
                                             |and sufficient." I. Newton
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
From: dadams@cray.com (David Adams)
Subject: Re: Olives!!
Reply-To: dadams@cray.com
Organization: Cray Research, Inc.
Date: 14 Sep 92 10:27:51 CDT

Someone asked how any body could have stumbled onto the proper use of 
olives...


I suggest that perhaps it was an afterthought to the brine curing process
wherein it would have been found that other not particularly wonderful
or immature fruits and vegitables could be made into rare treats by
pickling or brine curing.  

In other words people began trying to store more familiar fruits & vegies
for winter use by brine curing.  Then it is found that bitter immature
cukes and other immature fruits come out wonderful.  The next and nearly
obvious step would be to try other fruits that are otherwise bitter,
like olives.


---
--David C. Adams  Statistician  Cray Research Inc.  dadams@cray.com
___________________________________________________________________
       Old Sourdoughs never die.  They just ferment away.
From: anvil@ducvax.auburn.edu
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: Down Hearth/Spit Dogs?
Date: 8 Sep 92 14:31:37 GMT

A book I read sometime ago about cooking before the "modern" stoves and ovens
stated that down hearth cooking was the one of the leading causes of death
among women second only to childbirth. Why was this? Smoke inhalation? Heat?
Overwork? Also how widely used were spit dogs? (Dogs in wheeled cages 
trained turn the cage like a hamster,in order to turn the spit on which the
joint roasted.)

Thanks
John Sugg
Waverly,Alabama USA
From: leighann@sybase.com (Leigh Ann Hussey)
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: Re: Boiled Pudding Question?
Date: 3 Sep 92 17:16:19 GMT
Organization: Sybase, Inc.

Origins: I'm not certain.  I have a few theories, which I'll get into in
a minute.

Cloth: muslin, or linen.  Reasonably fine.  I actually do my Yule
pudding in a ceramic "basin" -- basically a glorified bowl.

Re: Jello: What is meant by "pudding" in this case is entirely different
than what you're accustomed to.  My Yorkshire grandmother's plum pudding
recipe contains: flour, bread crumbs, dried fruit, brown sugar
("demerara"), baking powder.  All it really is is a sort of steamed
cake.  Think of the traditional Boston Brown Bread.



Right.  Theories about puddings, which is actually theories about Why
English Cooking Is As It Is (IMNSHO):

When most of the population of the Isles lived in the country, on farms,
the usual methods of cooking were much as you may see them in recreated
Colonial places like Old Sturbridge Village, at an open hearth:
roasting, baking, stewing, frying, etc.  The Industrial Revolution
prompted a mass exodus from the country to the cities, where conditions
were much more close, people didn't tend to have a nice big hearth to
cook on.  What they did have was a stove.  What can you do on a stove?
Fry and boil.  Baking had to be done off the premises (see Dickens'
CHRISTMAS CAROL for this -- the Cratchitt's goose is done at the baker's
down the road).  Anyway, that's why so much of the food you get in
England nowadays is fried or boiled.  However, you can still get the
good stuff out in the country.

To the point: you have this dough.  You want to cook it.  You don't have
an oven, you have a stove.  You're accustomed to boiling things.  You
think, "Well, why not?" and you wrap your dough in a cloth to keep it
from dissolving in the water, and you boil the blessed thing.  If you're
frugal, you use the pudding broth for something as well (though, maybe
not for shaving, like in the old song "Get up and bar the door").

Anyway, enough rambling for now.  If folks want, I'll post Grandma
Hussey's plum pudding recipe...

Cheers,
	- Leigh Ann


Leigh Ann Hussey                                      leighann@sybase.com
"Turkeys, heresy, hops and beer / All came to England in the one year."
What year was it?
Answer: 1520
From: leighann@sybase.com (Leigh Ann Hussey)
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: Quote in my .sig
Date: 9 Sep 92 18:36:30 GMT
Organization: Sybase, Inc.

Okay, I've had sufficient numbers of people tell me that the couplet in
my .sig is wrong, that I feel compelled to answer in this forum rather
than to each one individually.  The general feeling of the folks mailing
me is, "But beer is much older than 1520."  The short answer: what was
known (at least in England) before 1520 was ALE.  BEER started out life
as hopped ale.  Nowadays, even a hopped brew can be called ale.  The
distinction is, it seems to me, practically religious.

If there is sufficient interest in the story, I'll bring the book in and
type in the whole story (which is actually fairly interesting).  But in
brief: in ALE AND HEARTY by Alan Wykes (London: Jupiter Books Ltd., 1979)
he relates the story of how the local brewers got up in arms about the
adulteration of ale with "weedes", and wrote letters to their Lords
Mayor requesting that such practises be banned.  Seems that as long as
you didn't call it "Ale", you could put whatever you wanted into it.

Anyway, there you are.  Further details on demand.

Cheers,
	- Leigh Ann


---------------
Leigh Ann Hussey                                      leighann@sybase.com
"Turkeys, heresy, hops and beer / All came to England in the one year."
What year was it?
Answer: 1520
From: anvil@ducvax.auburn.edu
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: Re: Down Hearth/Spit Dogs?
Date: 9 Sep 92 11:46:36 GMT

When I first heard the term spit dog I too thought they meant fire dogs/
andiron. But since then I have come accross several references to the spit
turner spit dog and have even seen a couple of drawings to suggest the
apparatus. I'll try to get to the library this afternoon and look up my 
references agiain. They also used a apparatus called a spit jack or clock
jack. This could be wound like a clock and through spring tenison turn the 
spit for a numbers of hours. These were not common though,I saw one made
recently by Peter Ross the Williamsburg,Va Blacksmith. He said it involved a
tremendous amount of manhours to make. What I was wondering was how widely
used was the spit dog method?

Regards
John  
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
From: u734120@bruny.cc.utas.edu.au (John Lamp)
Subject: Re: Olives!!
Organization: University of Tasmania, Australia.
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1992 05:18:07 GMT

leighann@sybase.com (Leigh Ann Hussey) writes:

>In article <5552@blue.cis.pitt.edu.UUCP> genetic+@pitt.edu (Dr. Dave) writes:
>>The one that has always fascinated me is the olive.  It takes a great deal
>>of culinary abuse to turn a fresh olive into food.  Your example of tapioca
>>is, of course, even more extreme.

>Oh hey!  Oh hey!  I'm so glad this came up.  Listen, a neighbor of mine
>has an olive tree, and they said I could come and take some olives.
>Also, I have a friend who has pits from the olive tree which Athena is
>purported to have planted on the Acropolis.  So, here are two questions:

>1) How do I prepare a non-cured olive pit for planting?

>2) How do I cure a fresh olive?

>Oh boy, I can hardly wait for the answers.  I've been sitting on this
>one for a couple of years with no clues.

>	- Leigh Ann

Green Olives
------------

1 Use fresh, plump and unbruised olives
2 Place olives in glass jar and cover with water.  Place a clean cloth and
plate on top of the fruit to ensure olives remain completely submerged.
3 Change water each day for five days.
4 Make up a brine solution consisting of 125g of cooking salt to four cups
of water.
5 Add one cup white vinegar to three cups of brine.
6 Carefully pour a light film of cooking oil over the surface of the brine
and vinegar.
7 Screw lids onto preserving jars.
8 Store in a cool dark place for 2-3 months before using.
9 The olives may then be eaten straight from the brine. If too salty for
personal taste, soak in water for 24 hours before eating.


Black Olives
------------

1 Use fresh, plump and unbruised olives
2 Place fruit in a glass jar and cover with three cups brine solution and
one cup malt vinegar. (Brine as above 125g salt 4 cups water)
3 Carefully pour a light film of cooking oil over the surface of the brine
and vinegar
4 Screw lids onto jars
5 Store in cool dark place for 3 months before using.
6 The olives may be eaten straight from the brine. If too salty for
personal taste, soak in water for 24 hours before eating.

Propogation of Olives
---------------------

Growing from seed is not the best way to go.  Beware - trees grow up to 6
metres high, and take many years to come into fruit.  Popular varieties in
Australia are Sevillano, Manzanillo, Mission and Verdale.

--
   _--_|\             John Lamp, originating in Hobart, Tasmania
  /      \                 Phone: 002 23 1366 - Fax: 002 34 5685
  \_.--._/                   email: u734120@bruny.cc.utas.edu.au
        v <-----------------------------------------------------
From: jtn@nutter.cs.vt.edu (Terry Nutter)
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: A bit of a Lark?
Date: 12 Sep 92 18:52:35 GMT
Followup-To: rec.food.historic

Hi, everyone.  John Sugg writes,

>I have come accross several references of the eating of larks during the 
>Middle ages. How were they prepared? One reference mentions a pie made of
>larks. What do they taste like? Are larks eaten today? In one of Blacksmith
>books there is a device called a lark spit which was a long handled fork
>mounted rack made to sit on the hearth and roast whatever was impaled on the
>fork. I assume that larks were the impalee. Any comments on this subject 
>would be appreciated.

Larks were definitely eaten in the middle ages.  Hieatt and Butler's
_Curye on Inglysch_ presents two actual historical menus for royal
feasts ("Thys is the purveanse of the feste for the kynge at home
with the lord spenser..." and "Thys is the porweaunse for the fest
for the kynge at home for his owne table") from MS Socin V.III.11 
from the 14th C; both list roasted larks.  They also reprint four more 
menus that represent general suggestions for meals for a given time 
of year (as opposed to records of particular meals) that mention
larks, usually roasted.

Taillevent provides the following recipe, taken from Scully's edition,
#45:

	Menus oiseaux.  Roasted Small Birds, such as larks, quail, thrush,
	and others.  Plucked dry without water then remove the gizzards
	and the viscera, then boil them a little (var: sear them in a
	clear flame), and mount them on a spit with their heads and
	feet, sideways and not lenghtwise, and put between every two
	of them slices or rashers of bacon or slices of sausage and
	bay leaves; and fill the bellies of the birds with a mixture
	of good rich cheese and beef marrow; they are eaten with fine
	salt and they are served at table between two bowls or between
	two plates.  In a pasty, with cream cheese in their bellies.

I've eliminated the typestyle changes that indicate variance among
MSs; but the stuffing, e.g., is present in some and absent in others.

Lots and lots of recipes call for small birds, without specifying 
variety.  Others call for other birds we don't normally think of 
eating today (thrushes come immediately to mind).

I've never eaten larks, so I don't know what they taste like.  I've 
never seen them on offer today, but then, there's lots of places I 
haven't been.  ;^}

Cheers,

Terry Nutter     Blacksburg, VA     jtn@vtopus.cs.vt.edu     (703)552-1598
From: leighann@sybase.com (Leigh Ann Hussey)
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: Re: toxins in food
Date: 4 Sep 92 19:46:14 GMT
Organization: Sybase, Inc.

Along this line, I've often wondered.  How do people discover that foods
that require an immense amount of processing to make them good to eat,
actually are good to eat?  What possesses them to take the time to
figure out how much processing it takes?  Simple hunger is probably not
the answer, when other, more easily and immediately eaten foods are
around.  I'm thinking specifically of tapioca, which is fatally toxic 
through the umpteen steps it takes to detoxify it, right until the one
point when it suddenly stops being toxic (or at least, this is my
understanding of it).  Who the hell discovered that tapioca was
eventually edible, and how many people had to die beforehand?

Just wondering...

	- Leigh Ann


Leigh Ann Hussey                                      leighann@sybase.com
"Turkeys, heresy, hops and beer / All came to England in the one year."
What year was it?
Answer: 1520
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
From: dcleek@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Dick Cleek)
Subject: Re: Down Hearth/Spit Dogs?
Originator: dcleek@csd4.csd.uwm.edu
Reply-To: dcleek@csd4.csd.uwm.edu
Organization: University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 13:04:28 GMT

From article <1992Sep8.093137.3318@ducvax.auburn.edu>, by anvil@ducvax.auburn.edu:
> Overwork? Also how widely used were spit dogs? (Dogs in wheeled cages 
> trained turn the cage like a hamster,in order to turn the spit on which the
> joint roasted.)
> 

I don't know about spit dogs, but dogs and sheep were used fairly commonly
in 19th century American farms to turn small wheels for grinding and
such.
-- 
..........   .........................         .......................
: |_|\/\/ :   Dick Cleek                        dcleek@csd4.csd.uwm.edu
:.centers.:   Univ.of Wisconsin Centers         dcleek@uwcmail.uwc.edu
From: haynes@cats.ucsc.edu (Jim Haynes)
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: Re: Olives!!
Date: 15 Sep 92 07:27:49 GMT
Organization: University of California; Santa Cruz
NNTP-Posting-Host: hobbes.ucsc.edu


Or perhaps when the goddess Athena gave mankind the olive she also
explained how to prepare it for eating.
-- 
haynes@cats.ucsc.edu
haynes@cats.bitnet

"Any clod can have the facts, but having opinions is an Art."
        Charles McCabe, San Francisco Chronicle
From: hiscrp@nuscc.nus.sg (C R Pennell)
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: Quote in my .sig
Date: 15 Sep 92 00:48:01 GMT
Organization: National University of Singapore

PLEASE will someone tell me how they know that Turkeys (heretical or
otherwise) reached England in the early sixteenth century? And what is
this heresy everyone is talking about. PLEASE, I can hardly sleep at
night.

Richard Pennell History NUS
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
From: hiscrp@nuscc.nus.sg (C R Pennell)
Subject: quote in my .sig
Organization: National University of Singapore
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 23:45:13 GMT

Yes, yes, but what about the Turkeys? - Heresy being excluded because of
subject area of this group!	

Richard Pennell, History Dept., NUS
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
From: aryk@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (A.J.S. Nusbacher)
Subject: Re: Down Hearth/Spit Dogs?
Organization: University of Toronto -- Hart House
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 22:04:24 GMT

In article <1992Sep8.093137.3318@ducvax.auburn.edu> anvil@ducvax.auburn.edu writes:
> Also how widely used were spit dogs? (Dogs in wheeled cages 
>trained turn the cage like a hamster,in order to turn the spit on which the
>joint roasted.)

Perhaps the term is a confusion with "fire dogs", a sort of andiron upon
which a fire was built.

The idea of using a dog in a wheel to turn a spit sounds pretty unweildy.

Aryk Nusbacher