From: 01sybok@ac.dal.ca
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.college,soc.college
Subject: Re: Fraternities  was (Re: still more practical jokes
Date: 9 Apr 92 00:12:04 GMT
Organization: Dalhousie University, Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

In article <ktnapnINN614@network.ucsd.edu>, erwin@bend.ucsd.edu (Sean Erwin) writes:
> It's easy to say "we don't hate women, we don't attack them,"  etc.  But this
> is not the issue.  It's easy (for some) to abuse a woman, rape a woman, but
> later not think what happened is rape.  The *real* issue is whether fraternity
> members *respect* women.  Respect their views, their ideas: conceive of them
> as people, rather than sperm receptacles with lots of neat curves.  And I
> sincerely doubt that the majority of men in fraternities know what it is to
> respect women.  
> 
*Sigh*. Here we go again. O-kay, I'm going to say this one more time...
*are* you listening carefully?
All fraternities are different. Al men *in* fraternities are different. Each
human being is unique. You are making a generalization. I am a fraternity man.
I respect *everyone*. I try to remember that everyone is unique; everyone
 is defined be a million different experiences. Some of those are related to
sex. I respect tose experiences, and the differences they bring. Have I made
myself *quite* clear, or shall I tattoo it on your forehead so you can read
it every day?



> It is nearly impossible to rid one's self of racism without having a good
> friend of a race other than your own.  Only in this way can you hear opinions
> and views from a person who's life experience is vastly different than your own.
> And only if this person is your friend, usually, can you respect such views
> different than your own.  The same goes for tolerating people of different
> cultures, religions, and also of different sexes.

Maybe you should get rid of that classist attitude. Get a few fraternity friends
and *then* make a judgment. Even then, you will be making a silly and inaccurate
generalization, but at lease that judgement has a hope in hell of being 
slightly closer to the mark. I think anyone can see the hipocracy evident in
your posting. You apparently have no fraternity friends, you are making 
judgements and heresay, yet you give advice like the above. Maybe you should
practice what you preach.
> 
> If you are male, and you have never had a *very* close female friend, someone
> you have respect for because of what they say and do, it is unlikely that you
> have respect for women in general.  And how can you form such a bond in a
> fraternity, where all your friends are guys, constantly reinforcing your ideas
> that women are playthings rather than real people that need to be listened to.
> 
I find this ludicrous (sp?) and insulting. I have a load of female 
friends, but even if I didn't, my lack of female friends would not 
necessarily mean I didn't respect women. The bond I formed ith my brothers is 
different entirly from the bonds I form with my other friends; the bonds I form
with each of my friends is different from the bonds I have with all my other 
friends. Each bond of friendship is different. Each boerhood is different.
If you have exactly the same relationship with each of your friends, you must 
lead a boring life.

> I feel that this is the central problem with fraternities:  they are dens of
> old-world sexist ideals, places where progressive ideas die before they can
> even be thought of, where women are forcibly excluded, where respect for those
> of different sex, color, or culture has absolutely zero chance of forming, in
> short, places where the status quo in America reigns.
> 

We are *not* dens of old world sexist ideals. If we were, My chapter would not
 have held a benefit for the local battered wife shelter. If you knew any Phi
Delts, or if you had ever pledged, you'd know that one of the tests of a true 
Phi is the ability to respect the opinions of *everyone* regardless of race, 
sex, or creed. These are more than words for us. It's and ideal we strive for.
How can you make these silly generalizations? I'm torn here between blind
fury and laughter at your abysmal ignorance/abject stupidity. We do exclude
women, it's true. I make no apologies for that. We are a men's only club.
We do *not* exclude anyone else. If you are a male student at our university,
or any of our affiliates, we will give you a chance to join. I also notice
not *once* in this posting do you mention sororities, though they are as 
sexist as fraternities. Why is that?
Pledge a fraternity. Make your desision about *that* *Particular* fraternity.
Stop making silly generalizations. You are as bad as the sexist people you
are trying (pathetically) to slam.
I'm sorry this is so insulting, but I get a little upset when people make
a judgement about em when they have never met me. It's part of the reason I
try not to do the same.
Later
Mike
> ---Sean Erwin
> 
> -- 
> Ya down wit PDP?  (Yeah you know me...)