HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: schlegel@cwis.unomaha.edu (Mark Schlegel)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Damnation
Date: 5 Oct 92 01:47:06 GMT
Organization: University of Nebraska at Omaha

cotera@aspen.ulowell.edu writes:

>The question of eternal damnation has arisen several times in this network.  I
>think I'd like to offer my thoughts about this because I've never seen them
>expressed by anyone in the universe.  As I see it death and hell are
>synonimous.  Quite often they are mentioned together, e.g. Rev. 1:18.  However,
>also in Rev. we see Christians in heaven.  I surmise from this that all
>non-Christians go to hell.  Before you flame me (pun intended) for this let me
>continue.  At Jesus' second coming He, along with all Christians, will rule
>over Israel for 1000 years.  Then everybody will be resurrected and judged
>according to their deeds.  Everyone whose name is not in the Book of Life will
>be thrown into the lake of fire.  Any comments will be greatly appreciated.
>--Ray Cote
                                **speculation**
                                
How about this, the bible was written to see who among humanity would believe 
in it against all reason and common moral sense, namely those that think it
is moral to punish people forever for being `wrong' about small points of
theology.  Actually it turns out the chaff he wants to throw out are these
people while at the end of the world he saves the unbelievers for their 
honesty.
From: cotera@aspen.ulowell.edu
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Damnation
Date: 3 Oct 92 06:29:40 GMT
Organization: University of Lowell

The question of eternal damnation has arisen several times in this network.  I
think I'd like to offer my thoughts about this because I've never seen them
expressed by anyone in the universe.  As I see it death and hell are
synonimous.  Quite often they are mentioned together, e.g. Rev. 1:18.  However,
also in Rev. we see Christians in heaven.  I surmise from this that all
non-Christians go to hell.  Before you flame me (pun intended) for this let me
continue.  At Jesus' second coming He, along with all Christians, will rule
over Israel for 1000 years.  Then everybody will be resurrected and judged
according to their deeds.  Everyone whose name is not in the Book of Life will
be thrown into the lake of fire.  Any comments will be greatly appreciated.
--Ray Cote
From: wong@rkna50.riken.go.jp (Wong Weng Fai)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Intro to Japanese Buddhism
Date: 5 Oct 1992 13:11:54 -0700
Organization: ----
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: sandman.caltech.edu

Hi Folks,

	This is a commercial ;-)

	I have just completed writing a simple introduction to Japanese
Buddhism. If anyone is interested, I can email him/her the Postscript file
which you can dump to your favourite Postscript printer for printing. But
I should say that there are Japanese Kanji in the thing and I am not sure
if it will print properly but anyway ...

	A friend of mine who published a local Buddhist newsletter in Malaysia
invited me to write this. It is not meant to be any formal or even a good
introduction for the subject is so wide. But someone once ask for this on the
net so I thought it would be a good idea to make it available.

	All criticisms and comments are welcome.

with Metta,

W.F. Wong.

Send you request to wong@rkna50.riken.go.jp and specify if you want it in
A4 or US Letter.
From: farris@ruhets.rutgers.edu (Lorenzo Farris)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: Enlightened Beings
Date: 27 Sep 92 20:17:14 GMT
Article-I.D.: qiclab.1992Oct1.155927.21308
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

In article <1a3on6INNlj3@sandman.caltech.edu>, dkarma@pro-nbs.acme.fred.org (Druta Karma) writes:
> >>In article <1992Sep21.174725.1182@sandman.uucp> farris@ruhets.rutgers.edu (Lorenzo Farris) writes:
> >>>. . .My own angst comes in when ...
(Druta includes long quote of characteristics of enlightened being from
Baghavad Gita, deleted for brevity.)
Thank you very much for putting so much effort into typing in this
passage.  But at best, all this can tell me is who is not enlightened.
How can I determine the motivation for a being's actions.  I can well
imagine situations in which someone looks like they are still caught
up in Maya, yet the reasons for actions may well be grounded in
enlightenment. Any actor will tell you that it is easier to act
intelligent when you are not, then to play a real idiot when you are
intelligent. How can we ever presume to know the ways of gods and
enlightened beings?
			Peace and Love,
				Lorenzo
-- 

"Ascetism can be a weakness, the	Lorenzo Farris
fulfilment of a desire, and due to 	farris@ruhets.rutgers.edu
a lack of real fortitude."
	-Hasan of Basra
From: dkarma@pro-nbs.acme.fred.org (Druta Karma)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: Soul
Date: 2 Oct 92 15:41:30 GMT
Organization: Pro-nbs.acme.fred.org -- San Diego, Ca (619) 571-0152

In <1992Oct1.151725.20563@qiclab.scn.rain.com>
pjm@cshl.org (Pat Monardo) writes:

>human consciousness is based on ignorance, through the process
>of karma. karma is a type of lambda binding which is dependent
>on something being unknown to operate. karma is like the lisp
>apply function, before application the lambda binding must
>take effect. binding is an association of name and form.

You are obviously conscious and you think you know something. You make a
distinction between knowledge and ignorance. You are consciously defining
ignorance as a state of consciousness. You are a conscious being, and
ignornace and knowledge are states of consciousness of which you become aware
and make statements about. There can be no karma without consciousness. Think
about it. 
>>
>>
>there is nothing that isn't emptiness.
>-- 
But that's something.

Druta Karma
----
ProLine:  dkarma@pro-nbs
Internet: dkarma@pro-nbs.acme.fred.org
From: farris@ruhets.rutgers.edu (Lorenzo Farris)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: Enlightened Beings
Date: 3 Oct 92 18:22:59 GMT
Article-I.D.: ogicse.43619
Distribution: world
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

In article <43584@ogicse.ogi.edu>, mcfarlan@zeno.math.washington.edu (Thomas J. McFarlane) writes:

-> Lorenzo  writes:
-> ->How can I determine the motivation for a being's actions.  I can well
[...]
-> ->enlightenment...  How can we ever presume to know the ways of gods and
-> ->enlightened beings?
-> 
-> Ultimately, you can never really know.  These are all relative
-> judgements and as such are subject to error.  The best we can do
-> is develop a presumption that someone is Enlightened or not.
-> How can we ever trust anyone about anything, for that matter?  
-> There is evidence of pure motivation, but, in the end, we just have 
-> to have faith and trust--or not.
-> 
-> Tom McFarlane

Exactly the point I was trying to make.  Thank you.
			-Lorenzo
-- 

"Ask me a riddle, and I [should] reply,       Lorenzo Farris
`Cottleston, Cottleston, Cottleston Pie'"     farris@ruhets.rutgers.edu
                -Winnie the Pooh          
[bracketed addition mine]
From: wong@rkna50.riken.go.jp (Wong Weng Fai)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Rinzai vs Soto Zen
Date: 5 Oct 1992 23:58:33 -0700
Organization: ----
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: sandman.caltech.edu

Hi,
	
	Here's my simplistic view about the differences between Rinzai and
Soto as they are in Japan today.

	Rinzai relies on both the koan and zazen. During a Rinzai sesshin
session ("intensive training"), the emphasis is on the koan. In a Rinzai
zazen, you also get hit from the front - twice :-P In China, Rinzai was the
biggest Zen school especially after the "5 families" was reduced to 2
(Rinzai and Soto) after Sung dynasty. There is a saying that goes something
like "Rinzai the world, Soto in a corner". Currently, the situation in Japan
is exactly the other way around (which I'll explain later). As a general 
"feel", Rinzai is more "high class". In Japan, Rinzai monks operates mainly in
the cities and courts. Not surprisingly, these monks are quite into tea
ceremonies, painting and the arts in general. Famous Rinzai masters include
Lin Zhi (the founder), Eisai (who brought it to Japan), Hakuin (who was
responsible for its popularity here) and, of course, D.T. Suzuki (who
introduced it to the West). 

	Soto (Cao-Dong) was named for Dong San and his disciple Cao San. Koans
are done away with in Soto Zen. The main emphasis is therefore zazen. The
sesshins in Soto are concentrated on zazen (quite severe if you ask me). These
guys hit you from behind and once per try. In direct contrast to Rinzai, Soto 
favours "other-worldiness". Dogen (who introduced it to Japan) hated 
politicians and politics and preferred the "quite mountain, deep valley" type 
of living. Rinzai, for example, sided with the military during WWII. (Not sure
what the Soto position was though.) They are therefore the more "vulgar" people 
(most of the monks were farmers) with their activities located in the rural 
areas. I once asked a Soto priest if he practice tea ceremony etc and his reply 
was "I'm a Soto priest; I'm just a poor farmer's descendent". Shinryu Suzuki is
said to have brought this lesser known form of Zen to the West.

	And don't buy the story that Zen don't rely on scriptures etc. Both
Rinzai and Soto Zen monks are expected to be experts (at least in chanting)
of some of the more popular sutras - the Heart and Kannon (Chapter 25 of the
Lotus) being the favourite. ;-)

	Hope that helps ...

Regards,

W.F. Wong.
From: farris@ruhets.rutgers.edu (Lorenzo Farris)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: Enlightened Beings
Date: 3 Oct 92 12:43:05 GMT
Article-I.D.: ogicse.43621
Distribution: world
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

In article <43576@ogicse.ogi.edu>, dkarma@pro-nbs.acme.fred.org (Druta Karma) writes:
> [long quote about how to find enlightened teacher deleted for brevity...]
> Druta Karma
> ----
> ProLine:  dkarma@pro-nbs
> Internet: dkarma@pro-nbs.acme.fred.org

I have been playing devil's advocate a bit, since I do agree that in
practice, this is how one would go about finding a teacher, for the
most part.  However, I will present several objections to this
presentation. 
The fact that someone presents all the external evidence, which is all
circumstantial, ultimately, just means they know how to act in a
fashion consistent with the texts they are following, nothing more.
(Deja vu...I have been having this discussion, but from the opposite
side, on talk.religion.newage :-)
Enlightenment is a state of awareness, and I can't directly see anyone
else's awareness field.
I was going to say, the right behaviour is a necessary, but not
sufficient condition.  But that's not even true.  Again, an
enlightened being has access to information most of us don't, and so
we cannot possibly determine the appropriateness of their behaviour.
The typical story in that line: a man leaps upon a passing woman in a
bad neighborhood and throws her to the ground. Most of us would jump
to the same conclusion here.  But that 'ruffian' saw that someone
else, out of sight to everyone else, was about to shoot her.  If the
knife comes, he is vindicated.  If it doesn't come, he has performed a
selfless act, yet will probably go to jail for it.

Regarding this line of succession stuff, having old guru's seal of
approval doesn't mean to me that new guru is definitely enlightened.
I would have to believe that old guru is enlightened first.  I don't
believe any line of succession is immune from degeneration through
the years. Furthermore, there is nothing to say that an enlightened
teacher might not arise independent of a lineage.  In principle, an
enlightened being will rediscover their enlightenment in each life
time, if they choose to come back.  The yogic seal of approval may or
may not apply to such a being, but they are enlightened nonetheless.

These are some considerations which I think make for a healthy
skepticism, when still starting with the premise of enlightenment.
For myself, these considerations cast me into a brief crisis, which
resulted in my starting up this aspect of this thread.
I still consider the search for an enlightened teacher a worthwhile
endeavor. I just don't want to leave my brain at home when I go
looking for hir.  (Note to zennies: don't pretend not to know what I
mean by this and go on about no-mind, etc. :-)

			yours in devilish advocacy
				-Lorenzo
-- 

"Ask me a riddle, and I [should] reply,       Lorenzo Farris
`Cottleston, Cottleston, Cottleston Pie'"     farris@ruhets.rutgers.edu
                -Winnie the Pooh          
[bracketed addition mine]
From: farris@ruhets.rutgers.edu (Lorenzo Farris)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: Becoming aware
Date: 27 Sep 92 19:52:16 GMT
Article-I.D.: qiclab.1992Oct1.155805.21221
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

In article <1a3oc9INNlb7@sandman.caltech.edu>, dkarma@pro-nbs.acme.fred.org (Druta Karma) writes:
> In <19q9g3INNn6s@sandman.caltech.edu>
> mw@ki.fht-mannheim.de (Marc Wachowitz) writes:
> 
> >Toshi Takeuchi <tt@wag.caltech.edu> wrote:
> >: How often do you feel sexual desires and feelings?
> >You are putting this in the context of things which are usually considered
> >negative. Is this meant to imply sexuality where somehow bad?
> >If so, I'd like to hear your reasons.
> >
As I understand it, other than the reasons which you find expounded in
exoteric sources, there are occult reasons for celibacy as well.
Many of the practices of renunciation, are, as much as for any other
reason, for the purpose of conserving energy for spiritual practice.
Every interaction one has with people involve exchanges of energy
If you are on the path, any interaction with people will tend to 
drain you of some energy, and lower your vibration.  Sexual
interaction has the most powerful such effect.  After sex, one will
have very strong energy ties with their partner.  They will have a
greater psychic access to each other.  And sex kicks in biological
conditioning which will take energy and attention away from the
spiritual pursuit.
Sex with the right attitude and intention is not bad per se, but one
must be aware of the cost to spiritual attainment.
And to further answer Mark's question, sexuality is not bad, but if
you are thinking about sex, and that's not what you are doing right
now, it seems you are wasting energy on fantasy and not living here
and now.  Sexual thoughts and desires are one of those canned programs
that needs to be modified and only run in full consciousness.

		Peace and Love,
			Lorenzo
-- 

"Ascetism can be a weakness, the	Lorenzo Farris
fulfilment of a desire, and due to 	farris@ruhets.rutgers.edu
a lack of real fortitude."
	-Hasan of Basra
From: tucker@mitre.org (William Tucker)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: Kundalini
Keywords: Re: Kundalini
Date: 3 Oct 92 18:54:42 GMT
Article-I.D.: ogicse.43618
Distribution: world
Organization: The MITRE Corporation, McLean, VA, USA

Hi -


You (Daniel A Rube) wrote the following:

For the past year I have been in a state of Kundalini release, at
some points the release has been massive and at others, negligable. 
One October afternoon last year I was sitting under some trees
by a small pond when a strong burning sensation started in my tailbone. 
Because I had some knowledge of eastern philosophy I knew what was
happening to me. But knowledge isn't enough. The force of the 
Kundalini has been active in me, which would be good except that
I am not very experienced in meditating. I can put myself into a 
state of relaxation in about five minutes, but after that I am
unsure as to where to go. 

Basically, I have one important question. How does one "open"
the Crown Chakra through meditation? This Chakra is by far and
away the most sensitive chakra of mine. It is as though energy
is backed up behind this chakra and cannot escape. If anybody
could help me on this it would be greatly appreciated. Also, if
anybody has had strange sensations on their spinal area and 
especially the tailbone, could you please post them? The force
of the Kundalini is strong and in people who have little ability
to control it, like me, some more writing on it may help.


I (William Tucker) would recommend:

Looking at Kundalini and the Chakras by G.L. Paulson
        and Wheels of Life by Anodea Judith.

Both of these are put out by Llewillyn Publications Inc. and are
very readable. There are other more eastern books available but
quite honestly these two are among the best that I've seen.
There's another by a man by the name I believe of Yamamoto put
out by Quest/Theosophical Publishing company by I can't remember
the name or title off hand that was also quite good, and 
"scientific." Basic techniques would include breathing/pranayama
exercises and certain yoga asanas, directed towards removing blocks
in specific areas. Hope this helps.

Wm T.

.standard disclaimer
From: lawder@ohsu.edu (Kathryn Lawder)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: AH Almaas (was: enquiry about an author ...)
Date: 5 Oct 1992 13:30:25 -0700
Organization: ----
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: sandman.caltech.edu

In article <43620@ogicse.ogi.edu> vvs3564@tamsun.tamu.edu (vishwas) writes:
>Has anybody read the book "Entering the Diamond way"?
>Yesterday I saw a videorecording of his program, but forgot his name.
>If anybody knows his name and his address (or how to contact him) 
>please send me e-mail message or please post on the newsgroup. 
>
>Thanking you all in advance ,
>
>vishwas.
I'm not positive, but I suspect you are referring to AH Almaas who has
published several books on what he calls "The Diamond Way".  I have 
read one of these books (Volume 2) and found it most interested and
useful.
 
The current issue of Gnosis magazine has an interview with Almaas (who
is based in the San Francisco Bay Area); have the mag but haven't read
the article, though I was interested to see a picture of this guy.
 
Anyway, the book I read overlapped quite a bit with the exposition of
truth as put forth by students of the Fourth Way (Ouspensky, Bennett,
Nicoll) to name a few.
 
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Kath                          Be More Than Food For The Moon
lawder@ohsu.edu                    Be What You Come Here For
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||

--
From: mcfarlan@zeno.math.washington.edu (Thomas J. McFarlane)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: Enlightened Beings
Date: 3 Oct 92 07:03:28 GMT
Article-I.D.: ogicse.43584
Distribution: world
Organization: University of Washington, Mathematics, Seattle

In article <1992Oct1.155927.21308@qiclab.scn.rain.com> 

farris@ruhets.rutgers.edu (Lorenzo Farris) writes:

>How can I determine the motivation for a being's actions.  I can well
>imagine situations in which someone looks like they are still caught
>up in Maya, yet the reasons for actions may well be grounded in
>enlightenment...  How can we ever presume to know the ways of gods and
>enlightened beings?

Ultimately, you can never really know.  These are all relative
judgements and as such are subject to error.  The best we can do
is develop a presumption that someone is Enlightened or not.
How can we ever trust anyone about anything, for that matter?  
There is evidence of pure motivation, but, in the end, we just have 
to have faith and trust--or not.

Tom McFarlane
From: adobe!usenet@uunet.uu.net (USENET NEWS)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: Enlightened Beans (was: Enlightened Beings)
Date: 6 Oct 1992 17:48:31 -0700
Organization: ----
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: sandman.caltech.edu

| I don't believe any line of succession is immune from 
| degeneration through the years.
				   -Lorenzo Farris 

There's a Zen story in which the cook is secretly given "the seal"
(the Dharma) and is cautioned to leave the monastery before the
head monk (who is in line to become the "official" successor when
the old roshi dies) finds out and tries to kill him.

Power corrupts. It is clear that the same self-serving forces that 
operate in the business world are also at work in the monastery,
or the ashram... Anyone who has penetrated even slightly into any
spiritual community knows that all is never as it seems on the outside. 
Spiritual aspirants do not necessarily leave ambition on the doorstep 
when they enter a teaching. And even wise men can have "blind spots" 
and can be deceived. The sincere seeker is always on his own, always 
reliant upon the guidance of the invisible forces that make this 
grandest of games possible at all.

			-Alan
From: jhong@nyx.cs.du.edu (james hong)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Buddhism vs Daoism
Date: 5 Oct 1992 13:07:16 -0700
Organization: ----
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: sandman.caltech.edu


hi, I'm writing a paper comparing/Contrasting buddhism and taoism.
Could anyone tell me the basic differences and similarities between
the two, especially if you practice either of them?

thanks alot,

James Hong

also, if you have any information you don't want to stick on the
net, you can email it to me at either this account or at
jhong@soda.berkeley.edu.  I prefer the second one.

Once again, thank you@
From: v003pakw@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Daniel A Rube)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Kundalini
Date: 3 Oct 92 04:48:00 GMT
Article-I.D.: ogicse.43585
Distribution: world
Organization: University at Buffalo

For the past year I have been in a state of Kundalini release, at
some points the release has been massive and at others, negligable. 
One October afternoon last year I was sitting under some trees
by a small pond when a strong burning sensation started in my tailbone. 
Because I had some knowledge of eastern philosophy I knew what was
happening to me. But knowledge isn't enough. The force of the 
Kundalini has been active in me, which would be good except that
I am not very experienced in meditating. I can put myself into a 
state of relaxation in about five minutes, but after that I am
unsure as to where to go. 

Basically, I have one important question. How does one "open"
the Crown Chakra through meditation? This Chakra is by far and
away the most sensitive chakra of mine. It is as though energy
is backed up behind this chakra and cannot escape. If anybody
could help me on this it would be greatly appreciated. Also, if
anybody has had strange sensations on their spinal area and 
especially the tailbone, could you please post them? The force
of the Kundalini is strong and in people who have little ability
to control it, like me, some more writing on it may help.

If anybody wants to write me personally, me e-mail address is:

rube@acsu.buffalo.edu
From: Roger Adams <RADAMS@cerritos.edu>
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: ego (was RE: Soul)
Date: 27 Sep 1992 00:36:50 -0700
Organization: Cerritos College, Norwalk CA
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: sandman.caltech.edu

In article <19vthkINNeoe@sandman.caltech.edu>, 
raj@globe1.att.com (Rajendra P Sharma) writes:

> 	There has been proposed various methods to "focus" the mind:
> 	      Mantra, Tantra, and Yantra.
> 	
> 	In the end though, one must find the source of this
> 	"spurious ego."
 	
Or surrender the ego (like the stick in the flame).  Surrender and enquiry
are two sides of the same coin.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
	Roger Adams
	radams@cerritos.edu               To those in whom love dwells,
	Cerritos College                  the whole world is one family.
	11110 Alondra Blvd                             A Hindu Proverb
        Norwalk, California 90650
	USA        		          292 Dwapara :-)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------