From: REXLEX@fnalf.fnal.gov
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Eternal Security?
Date: 30 Jul 92 07:49:00 GMT
Organization: Fermilab

In article <Jul.29.04.54.14.1992.26592@dartagnan.rutgers.edu>
rowland@tne01.tele.nokia.fi writes:
>
>This goes too far since it is implied that enlightenment is synonymous with
>regeneration which it is not.  Regeneration is a unique work which admits
>no degrees (you are either regenerate or you are not).  The Ephesian 
>christians were without a doubt regenerate but Paul prays that they may
>receive further enlightenment (Eph 1:18).  It does not necessarily follow
>that profession of faith means possession of Christ. 
>
No, whatI'm saying is that in this context and in this epistle, that is how it
is being used.  I'm not formulating a doctinal definition which would require
all references to agree, I'm just trying to explain this passage.

>Is this as clear cut as it is here suggested ?  Check out Matt. 27:34 where
>"tasted" is one step short of "to drink" (i.e. one can taste something and
>yet not digest and derive nourishment from it).  I do not for a moment
>suggest that Christ did not die.  He did die.  But, the point here is that
>to hang the whole exegesis on this one word has its problems.
>
ibid

>
>Bear in mind that Mark 6:20 states that even Herod enjoyed the preaching of
>John the Baptist !!  I've yet to read of anyone who argues that Herod was
>at any point a true believer.
>
ibid
>
>The point of course is whether, as Rex says, this passage actually 
>teaches that a regenerated individual can fall into apostasy.
>I think not for two reasons :
>
>1.  this is contrary to the many clear texts which teach otherwise 
>John 10:27-29 being a case in point.

Wait -ok I get it, you're equating apostasy with loss of salvation? The
Johanian passage you quote would argue against this.  However, I'm not equating
the two.  As clh says, maybe I just have a wrong emphisis or some such thing.  
>
>2.  this very passage goes on to present the opposite case.  Heb 6:17-20.
>Read it for yourselves.  Isn't it so that the 'heirs of the promise' have
>hope, and that this hope is 'an anchor of the soul', 'sure and steadfast'.
>Heb 6:9 should alert us to the fact that there is a contrast here.  How
>could the Apostle say that he is 'convinced of better things concerning
>you, and things that accompany salvation...' salvation....' if atheirs
>could 'fall away' ?
>
Again, I'm not equating it with the loss of salvation.  Also, v17-20 are
outside this particular parenthetical.

>The inevitable conclusion must be that the subjects of Heb 6:4-6 were
>never regenerate.  

     How shall I answer you?  Would you accept my testimony?  Probably not. 
You'd probably say that I wasn't regenerated the first place.  My falling away
was just a continuation after having a taste.  Experience can amount to
nothing, of that I'm sure of.  However, I accepted Christ in 3rd grade, then
moved from my circle of influence and led a non-Xian life until my 2nd year in
the USAF. It was then that I recommitted my life to Christ.  Previously,
anytime someone tried to converse with me about the things of God, I'd simply
turn them off. In fact, the day prior to my flight to Hawaii, two guys came
through the barracks and tried to talk with about "Jesus." Give me a break will
you.  I don't want to hear this stuff.  However, it wasn't by direct human
involvement that I came to "see the light."  I was on my TDY assignment in
Hawaii (I know, life is tuff) working 36 hr days.  I was by myself and
hopelessly strung out on drugs.  I loved the stuff and it was cheap.  But one
day leaving my room, I noticed in the waste basket outside my door, that
someone had thrown away Pearl S. Bucks "Story Bible."  I picked up and started
reading.  I haven't put it down to this day, though I have matured to more
literal translations.  The point is that no individual could have influenced me
to turn me around, they only had the opposite effect.  But God, in His good
time, and by His good will, saught me out and turned me around Himself.  Had I
lost my salvation -no.  There was still an eclipsed fellowship during those
years, I just never whated to uneclipse thats all.  

because He first loved me,
Rex
>