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From:         Undetermined origin c/o Postmaster <POSTMASTER@SIUCVMB.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Comments :

          Katie Schmitz, kls4344@ritvax.isc.rit.edu, here:

          Omer guesses that mainstream communities will be more likely to
          learn sign language if a visible deaf population is present.  This
          is only partly true, as Rochester, New York (home to <55,000 deaf
          people, the largest per capita population in the United States of
          deaf people), demonstrates.  Yes, Rochester probaby has more than
          the usual share of interested, concerned hearing people who've
          taken the time and energy to learn sign language.  This stems
          partly from the presence of NTID and the Rochester School for the
          Deaf and partly from the social connections inevitable in human
          relations:  deaf people know hearing people and can influence them,
          which means that the more deaf people there are, the more hearing
          people they contact.  I still think that mainstream (i.e., hearing)
          society in Rochester feels slightly distant from deaf residents,
          which is something I'm not sure is completely eradicable.  But I do
          rejoice in small victories, lest anyone think I'm cynical.

          The success stories Omer cites, to which I would add the Martha's
          Vineyard community way back at the turn of the century (correct me
          if I've got my dates wrong), are ungeneralizable microcosms; the
          mainstream in most non-rural cases simply is too large to influence
          so easily.

          Katie
From: 11CWATT@GALLUA.BITNET (Keith Watt - Gallaudet Dept. of Education)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.deaf-l
Subject: Re: Cochlear implant failures
Date: 17 Oct 92 01:43:17 GMT
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Omer -

>We all know the term 'oral failures' - meaning people who are deaf and
>were educated orally (lipreading and speech).  However it did not work
>out for them, and they grew up deprived of both sign language and real
>knowledge of the language used by the society in which they are.

Actually - in the U.S. at least - historically an "oral failure" was
someone who was educated using the manual method.  A minor point, I
suppose...

Take care..
Keith

===============================================================================
Keith Watt                              |
Gallaudet University                    | "Exit, pursued by a bear."
Department of Education                 |     Stage direction in Shakespeare's
                                        |     _The Winter's Tale_ (1611)
BITNET:                                 |
11CWATT@GALLUA.BITNET                   |
===============================================================================
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Date:         Thu, 8 Oct 1992 12:24:00 +1300
From:         IS30124@OTAGO.AC.NZ
Subject:      hello - bio

Hello folks!

Here is my bio.....

NAME: Barry Kirkland
AGE: 22
ADDRESS: 324 Brighton Road, Green Island, Dunedin, NEW ZEALAND.
OCCUPATION: Bachelor of Commerce with Honours student, majoring in Information
Science (or Systems)
ONSET OF DEAFNESS: Birth
DEGREE OF DEAFNESS: Profound
CAUSE OF DEAFNESS: Rubella in Mum.
WHY I JOINED DEAF-L: Just curious, wanted to see what was being said in the
forum. I thought I might get some interesting info this way.
COMM STRATEGY: Sign language with the deaf people in NZ. Writing down on pad
with hearing, also a little typing on the computer.
WORST THING: Little or no participation in discussions, talks. Not being able
to use the phone like everyone else does.
BEST THING: No probs with noise like jackhammers, hammers, construction trucks.
PERSONAL HEROES: John Kirwan (An All Black rugby player - an All Black is a New
Zealand national rugby team player), Martin Crowe (NZ cricket captain),   if
you need an internationally recognised figure, then Florence Nightingale is one
of my heroines (she greatly improved hygiene in medicine). Laurie Mains - All
Black coach. JF Kennedy is a bit of an USA hero to me. otherwise, sorry no USA
heroes.
PEOPLE I DON'T LIKE: Politicians (always break promises), bureaucrats,
criminals, financial parasites like Allan Hawkins of Equiticorp (now Equiti
CORPSE) - a similar USA figure is Donald Trump.
MOTTO: Get the most out of life.

I visited the USA in May 1992 for 31 days. It was a really enjoyable trip. I
looked at 4 uni's with facilities for deaf students. I haven't decided which
one I will go to next year or in 1994 if my family ever comes up with the money
to pay for the study.

QUESTIONS: The only question I have is: does anyone knows research authorities
for proving that only the best deaf lipreaders achieve 20-30% understanding of
what someone says to them? I just need the authority author name, journal, etc.

Have a nice day,
Barry Kirkland.
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From:         Undetermined origin c/o Postmaster <POSTMASTER@SIUCVMB.BITNET>
Subject:      RE: Hype

          Katie Schmitz, KLS4344@ritvax.isc.rit.edu, here:

          Lew Golan, in rebuttal of the phrase "deaf people can do anything
          except hear," lists a number of occupations that most deaf people
          would have some (if not a lot) of difficulty doing well and then
          adds that the phrase is meaningless in the context of the list.
          He's right, but I think he's reading the phrase too literally.

          Pardon my neophyte naivete, but I'd like to believe that like any
          slogan, that phrase will be read in the spirit with which it was
          originally written.  After all, let's be realistic and agree that
          no single person, even equipped with all five or six senses to the
          nth degree, can do everything.

          In addition, as Vicki Brown has noted in other posts, context is
          everything when considering whether something is a handicap or
          someone is capable or incapable of doing something.

          *AND* why not just enjoy a sense of solidarity that the phrase can
          impart to receptive participants?

          Katie
From: vlb@MAGIC.AUX.APPLE.COM (Vicki Brown)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.deaf-l
Subject: entertainment recommendation (largely near East coast)
Date: 15 Oct 92 18:02:00 GMT
Reply-To: vlb@apple.com
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU

You've probably heard of The National Theatre of the Deaf; have you heard of
the Little Theatre of the Deaf?  It's a smaller company designed to bring the
NTD experience to children and families.  If you get a chance to see them, I
recommend it.  There are now two companies - one based in Connecticut and the
newest in Los Angeles.

They were in Mountain View California last night.  We took a
(hearing/non-signing) 8-year old to the performance - she enjoyed it.  The
audience was about half (to 1/3) adults, the rest kids.  Everybody loved the
performance.  It was fast and funny.  One of the best parts came when the
performers asked audience members for suggestions to act out.  The 5 cast
members then performed: a train, a camel, seals, a VCR, a washing machine, and
a fire truck.

They will be in - Albany NY (Jan 8)
		  Cooperstown NY (Jan 10)
		  Columbia MD (Feb 14)
	 	  Falmouth MA (Apr 4)
		  Newtown PA (Apr 16)
		  Wilmington DE (Apr 19)

I've got the locations and box office phone numbers; if anyone wants them send
me Email.  Or you can get:
- more West coast performance info from The Music Center (213) 972-7693
- general information from NTD (203) 526-4971 (V),  (203) 526-4974 (TDD)

Vicki Brown
A/UX Development Group       Apple Computer, Inc., Cupertino, CA
Internet: vlb@apple.com	     AppleLink: VICKI.BROWN
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.deaf-l
Date:         Thu, 8 Oct 1992 20:46:43 EST
From:         A249000 Mike Wilson <A249@NMUMUS.BITNET>
Subject:      RE:PC as TDD?

Hello Bill, The Telephone office, here at NMU, Converted a PC to be used
as both a TDD and communications device for the blind. It's my under-
standing that the board and software are IBM products.
Mike Wilson, beseiged student up north.
From: MUTH_M@CUBLDR.COLORADO.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.deaf-l
Subject: Re: hype
Date: 16 Oct 92 16:50:00 GMT
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I disagree with Adam Skwersky... Deaf and Hard of Hearing can do anything!
I am DEAF... I believe that I can do anything except hear... I can do anything
a normal hearing person would do, I can eat, run, sleep, read, write, communi-
cate and have a understanding what life means itself...
I grew up believing that my deafness cannot get in the way in anything that I
can do in the world.  Perhaps, someone gave you the discouragement that deaf/
Hard of hearing cannot do anything.  In the society that I live in, the deaf
community is doing anything-I am talking about ANYTHING-they can to be treated
the same as hearing people.  But, they never forget the fact that they are DEAF.
How dare you insult I.king jordan... HE has the guts to do ANYTHING in the world
Michelle Muth         MUTH_M-------
From: ishbeld@CIX.COMPULINK.CO.UK (Ishbel Donkin)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.deaf-l
Subject: Re: politicians
Date: 16 Oct 92 21:14:00 GMT
Reply-To: ishbeld@cix.compulink.co.uk
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Bosco/Paul

It's quite hard to recall particular names of deaf people who've made
their mark in various UK spheres...there's Eric Sykes, comedian, for one.
Also I met a deaf man who started his own business simply to get into
a high-powered position in deaf politics, and he was/is successful in
both spheres!  Actually I think deaf people in business are few and far
between in the upper echelons and tend to hide the fact, in the UK.
Deaf people may be academically successful but then find that in the
outer world of business hard realities usually prevail, and they are
easily ignored when promotion comes up.

Pessimistic, maybe, but pretty true.  Maybe that's why there is so
much ill-feeling coming out in this conference - there's really
nowhere else to express it!  But that's no excuse...

And, Bosco, I liked your philosophical article/message...it does need
careful digesting, and it's amusing too!  More than one could say of
some of the recent mail on Deaf-L

Ishbel.
From: LEW@TAUNIVM.BITNET (Lew Golan)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.deaf-l
Subject: hype
Date: 16 Oct 92 22:32:54 GMT
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     Joseph's dictionary defines "hype" as:

>  4. extravagant promotion or advertising

     That's right.

>  We do not advertise or promote anything with the phrase.  Therefore,
>  #4 does not apply.

     You're kidding, aren't you? The phrase is pure, unvarnished
self-promotion.

Lew Golan, Tel-Aviv University <lew@vm.tau.ac.il>
From: 11MDESSERT@GALLUA.BITNET (Mark J. Dessert)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.deaf-l
Subject: BIO
Date: 14 Oct 92 13:57:30 GMT
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Hi!
     My name is Mark Dessert, I suppose it's time I bored you with a
little info regarding yours truly.  I am a student at Gallaudet
University in Washington, DC.  I transferred here last Spring from
Southern Connecticut State University where I had been attending part
time just to get the hang of being in a classroom again.  My Major is
Social Work, a far cry from the technical field I left, but it really
excites me!
     I count myself among the late-deafened.  I grew up hearing and
developed a progressive hearing loss in my mid twenties.  It went
undiagnosed until the Fall of 1991, when I was finally bestowed the
label:  "Bilateral Meniere's Disease."  My hearing would fluctuate from
day to day, so I really wasn't certain whether I was deaf or hard of
hearing.  Last month, though, my "good" ear took a nose dive and now I
cannot hear any speech at all without my hearing aids.  With my hearing
aids in, I hear much noise, but my speech discrimination isn't worth
considering.  I am learning Sign Language and taking Speechreading
therapy and have returned to College to pursue what I expect can be a
most rewarding career in the field of Social Work.  Currently, my
interests are with the Department of Mental Health and Hospice work, but
who know when that may change?  I think I shall keep this short, but
I may include more about myself from time to time when I toss my
opinions into the pot.  Gotta' run now, time for class!


(PS Steve:  Thanks for the welcome aboard!  *smile*)

                                    Mark
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.deaf-l
Date:         Sat, 10 Oct 1992 06:37:59 -0400
From:         "(Seth Gordon)" <sethg@SILVER.LCS.MIT.EDU>
Subject:      disability
              1 Oct 1992 21:55:11 IST <9210061502.AA09555@silver.lcs.mit.edu>

    [Regarding deceiving deaf children in ways that gives them
     a right to be pissed off]
    Lew says:
    Yeah, it's like people who tell a deaf child that she isn't
    hearing-impaired or disabled or whatever -- just "different."

I presume your word processor crashed before you had time to type
out the phrase "differently auditorially abled."  :-)

As for not telling deaf children they're disabled:

Within Deaf culture, deafness is not a disability.  But since oral
communication skills are important within mainstream culture, within
mainstream culture, deafness *is* a disability.

I personally wish that everyone in the US had access to e-mail, and
that ASL were taught in mainstream grade schools alongside art, music,
English, and other forms of expression.  If this were the case, then
deafness *might not be* a disability.  (Would there be a Deaf
Culture?)  Or maybe signing would only be considered appropriate
in certain situations--between lovers or close family members, for
instance--and deaf people who relied on sign would *still* be at
a disadvantage.

Saying "deafness is not a disability", period, implies that there is
some Complete List Of Disabilities, drawn up by God or Natural Law,
and by golly, deafness *isn't* on The List.  Ain't no such animal.

I also wonder how *hearing* people who *do* identify themselves as
disabled feel when confronted with the statement "deafness is not
a disability."  I picture a man in a wheelchair thinking, "What's
the matter?  You're too good to hang out with us cripples?"

--
seth gordon ... <sethg@silver.lcs.mit.edu>   ... .sig under construction;
mit bs '91  ... learning ctr 4 deaf children ... pardon the inconvenience

P.S.: L'shana tova (Happy Jewish New Year).
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.deaf-l
Date:         Wed, 7 Oct 1992 07:55:38 -0400
From:         Miriam Clifford <DMIMI@ECSVAX.BITNET>
Subject:      RE:Handicap Digest # 2949

In regard to meeting the deaf person's needs in a mental health setting.

With ADA in force, mental health clinics, hospitals, etc., have a clear
responsibility to meet needs with an interpreter or whatever is necessary.

However, few have made provision for this.  I've looked into the situation
in North Carolina (of course, this is a state responsiblity usually), to
find that there are very few situations in the State where a deaf or hard
of hearing person can get mental health help that is appropriate for them.

There is one residential unit in one mental hospital that has an interpreter
present at least part of the time.  What happens to anyone else with such
needs I don't know.  I could get side-tracked here with a question of
what happens to an older person who is either misdiagnosed as mentally
incompetent when he/she is deaf or hard of hearing, or who has both
conditions.  But, let me not digress.

When the mental health facility's staff was asked how many deaf/hoh people
they served, they said "none".  To which I replied, why should anyone come
to you when you can't provide service to them?  "Oh" they said.

Now, in North Carolina, the state Division of Mental Health and the State
Division for the Deaf and Hard of Hearing are collaborating to provide a
variety of services for us.  Which requires that deaf and hard of hearing
people remain active in demanding such services, whether that behavior is
popular or not.

dmimi@ecsvax.uncecs.edu  dmimi@ecsvax.bitnet
Miriam (Mimi) Clifford; 2535 Sevier St, Durham, NC 27705; 919-489-4821
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From: 6751W964@KENTVM.BITNET (Lisa Wear)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.deaf-l
Subject: (no subject given)
Date: 13 Oct 92 20:51:28 GMT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU

Adam,
     I don't if I missed your message or not.  Somehow I erased a whole day
of messages.  I hope yours was not part of it.  I am eagerly waiting for
a reply concerning "HANDS".  I hope I didn't miss it. Sorry if I did.
                                                Lisa
                                                6751w964 kentvm
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Date:         Thu, 8 Oct 1992 09:56:37 EDT
From:         Alan Goldschen <ajg@SEAS.GWU.EDU>
Subject:      Re: hello - bio
              "CXLNVD@RITVAX.BitNet" at Oct 7, 92 11:54 pm

This is very good question and I have my own wonders:

> arry Kirkland says:
>
>
>
> QUESTIONS: The only question I have is: does anyone knows research authorities
> for proving that only the best deaf lipreaders achieve 20-30% understanding of
> what someone says to them? I just need the authority author name, journal,
 etc.
>
>
> Thanks for asking this question, I have wondered this myself.  It seems like
> a piece of folklore myself.  I know I can read about 85% of words on the lips,
> am profoundly, prelingually deaf, and when people spout that "20-30%" number
> it seems unproven a figure to me since it has gained so much currency.  Not
 that
>     I am knocking anyone's need for sign language, but I *do* like to have my
> facts straight and be able to quote facts knowing that I have the sources to
> back Barry and I up!
>
> Ciao!
>
> Chris Lehfeldt
>

Be careful of the context you are trying to read into here.  I have heard
of the 20-30% word recognition for nonsensical ISOLATED WORDS only.  That
is, which word is said: pan, man, ban or tan?

The word recognition rate goes up if you have full context of the sentence
and the topic of discussion.

Sorry to but in, but I felt that we need to know what the original question
is.  Are we recognizing words, nonsense words, using a sentence, etc?

Now I would also like to know the papers too :)


-------------------------------------------------------------
Alan Goldschen                       e-mail: ajg@seas.gwu.edu
Department of EE and CS              Graduate Student
George Washington University
801 22nd Street N.W.
Washington, D.C. 20052
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.deaf-l
Date:         Fri, 9 Oct 1992 16:55:40 +0200
From:         Omer Zak <XLACHA1@WEIZMANN.WEIZMANN.AC.IL>
Subject:      Re: hello - bio
              9 Oct 1992 10:29:00 +1300 from <IS30124@OTAGO.AC.NZ>

Re: the political situation in New Zealand:
I see some striking parallels (and profound differences as well) to the
situation in Israel:
Here too people speak about reform of the electoral system - to go from
essentially multiparty to two-party systemhe present system is purely
proportional and people want to make it partially regional.  However, I
think the system has become de-facto two-party one (plus few other
small parties).
The health system here is in need of restructuring as well.
The unemployment rate is high (11%) but it is due to immigration.
The former minister of finance claimed that new jobs were being created
at record rate.
                                                 --- Omer
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.deaf-l
Date:         Thu, 8 Oct 1992 15:44:18 BST
From:         Bosco Keown <KEOWN@WINVMC.VNET.IBM.COM>
Subject:      The Guinness Book of Lipreading Feats. NOT!

Ref:  Misc....

Come off it, folks. Lipreading accuracy is a function of many
things:

     context
     lipreadability of speaker
     expressiveness of speaker
     attentiveness of lipreader
     complexity of subject
     lighting
     concentration
     hirsuiteness of speaker's face
     familarity of speaker to lipreader, and vice versa
     .
     .
     ad nauseum

So "30-35 percent" and "80-85 percent" are just meaningless
nonsense. No scientist in his right mind would publish such
misleading information without carefully listing the conditions
and constraints under which the figures were obtained.

I can lipread most people 100 percent some of the time; other
times I fall short, still other times I can't lipread them at
all. Usually if I really WANT to lipread them I can do so, and more
than adequately. It's all a matter of concentration and making
sure the other criteria for effective lipreading are observed.

To say I can only lipread 35 percent is what is said is to say
that Mickey Mouse will be President of the United States. Anyway,
last time George Bush said "Read My Lips", more than 35 percent
obliged at the polls...either they could lipread, or they *thought*
he said "No New Taxes". :-)

Bosco.

John Bosco Keown,
CICS Workstation Products      | VNET     : KEOWN at WINVMC
IBM UK Laboratories, Ltd.,     | IBMIPNET : keown@harpo.hursley.ibm.com
Hursley Park,                  | Internet : keown@winvmc.vnet.ibm.com
Winchester, England.           | BITNET   : KEOWN at VNET
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