From: payner@netcom.com (Rich Payne)
Subject: Re: Self Appreciation (was: Re: Elle MacPherson causes rape?)
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
Distribution: usa
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1992 19:18:37 GMT

In article <1dpfsmINNpr2@hp-sdd.sdd.hp.com> teri@sdd.hp.com (Teri Tracey) writes:
>In article <1992Nov6.165051.25204@cbnewsk.cb.att.com> krw@cbnewsk.cb.att.com (keith.r.smith) writes:
>
>>  If you _know_ that you are doing the best
>>that you can with what God gave you, then you have no reason to feel
>>inadequate next to anybody.  In a word _attitude_.  
>
>The thing is, though, most men are brought up to think this way, and women are
>not.  

Odd, I was not brought up this way. In fact, I was wrong for anything
and everything I did or did not do. Terribly confusing that. Took years
to get over it and gain self confidence. But self confidence is not something
that comes from the outside. BTW, you get -feedback- from those around
you, not self-confidence. If you lack SC, you may require positive feedback
to feel confident. Feedback is very important, it lets us know where we
stand, and (if we allow it) when we have problems. Those who lack SC
may run from all feedback which is not positive, causing problems, or
allowing small problems to grow into big problems. This may well be
the cause of the end of my current relationship. She has no problem telling
me what bothers her, but she does not even want to hear about what bothers
me. 

> It goes back to that "men do, women are" dichotomy which unfortunately
>permeates our society.  

Funny, this was just brought up, in the context of humor. And it was not
universally accepted. 

>                       Men receive their credibility and worth through 
>what they *do*.  Women receive their credibility and worth through their 
>*appearance.*   

I do not think this is true. The latter is politically correct however.
How do you know that this is true? Where did you come by this knowledge?

>                 Men are automatically given credibility whereas women 
>are asked to demonstrate capability.  

Sorry, I worked long and hard for whatever professional credibility
I may have, often against great resistance. How many men do you know who
get this automatic credibility? Where do they work? Maybe I should
seek employment there. :^}

>                                       Not quite so much any more these 
>days, and this is a change many of us would like to see, but it's really 
>ingrained.  

I imagine many beliefs are so ingrained that they will be considered 
valid no matter what. 
 
>**Men (or anyone) who have never experienced the type of societal pressures 
>that many women do, usually **don't understand** what it's like to be a 
>woman and to be bombarded by Madison Avenue's images of the ideal woman.**   
>You really *don't* have any idea, although you *think* you do.

But these same women understand what it is like to be a man, bombarded
by similar advertising. 
 
>I'm not sure how to bring people to that understanding, either.   You can't
>understand what it can be like to grow up female.  It's not just "stepping 
>into her shoes for a few-second thought experiment."  It's living her 
>life of Vogue magazines and MTV videos and Woman's Day--whether she 
>consciously chooses to accept these messages or not!

Many women do not. How is this possible? My girlfriend (possibly ex) does
not wear makeup, never bothered me.

And many women will tell in detail what it is like to grow up male. How 
do they know? Or, how can they know what it is like to be male, while men
cannot know (similarly) what it is like to be female?
 
>I hope your message is not for us to "stop whining, if you just tried harder, 
>you'd become CEO/earn more money/feel better about yourself."  No, I'll 
>just go back to my room that my parents filled with stuffed animals rather
>than erector sets, do my home ec homework, iron my mini skirt and polish
>my heels that impede my ability to even walk, and play with my Barbie that 
>reinforces my belief that "math is hard."

I rather doubt that you grew up with such a barbie. 
 
>If anyone out there agrees with me...how about some email or something...
>
>Teri Tracey              "When people are free to do as they like, they
> San Diego, CA            generally imitate each other."                   
>  teri@sdd.hp.com  
>=============================================================================

Rich

payner@netcom.com



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