HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mattm@apple.com (Matthew Melmon)
Subject: Re: discrimination at CMU
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 18:13:33 GMT
Organization: Apple Computer, Inc.
Followup-To: soc.motss

In article <1992Nov12.124751.1544@macc.wisc.edu>, anderson@macc.wisc.edu
(Jess Anderson) wrote:

> >Telling an actor to carry himself in a 'manly' way during
> >the course of a part is *not* the same thing as telling the
> >actor to change the way he lives his *own* life.
> 
> The flaw in this argument resides in the fiction "manly
> way."  Actors, incidentally, include women.
> 
> >Where is the conceptual difficulty in that?
> 
> I didn't go too fast for you, I hope.

Stick to politics, Anderson.  That women also act has no bearing on
the fact that a *male* student, told to act *manly*, is *not* being
told to change the way he lives his own life.  There is no fiction
in that statement, your willful inability to process it notwithstanding.

*X*
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: jtroxel@carson.u.washington.edu (Joseph Troxel)
Subject: Re: How to prevent anti-gay laws
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1992 03:31:25 GMT

In article <1992Nov13.232057.638@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> tls@Virginia.EDU (Thornton L. Staples) writes:
>It seems to me that we are dealing with an applied philosophy and
>rhetoric problem
>at the core of this issue. First of all, we have two groups (one on
>either side)
>that have a definite opinion, with an ethos to support it. There are
>the
>good guys (that's us) and the bad guys (Mabon and his ilk). Neither
>group will be
>easily convinced to change their stand. The campaign is being waged on
>that large,
>wishy-washy group that we will call Everybody Else. The bad guys
>developed a simple
>message that they can sell with a question: "Do you think that gays
>should have
>special rights?" The good guys know, of course, that this is predicated
>on a 
>misrepresentation of our position; we want protection of our existing
>rights.
>Political campaigns of the last 12 years have shown that Everybody Else
>doesn't 
>necessarily bother to question the question, they answer it and vote. It
>seems to 
>me that we somehow need to gain control of the question and re-state it.
>
>I appologize if this seems ponderous and/or pompous, but it seems to me
>that
>we are (at least on one level) dealing with a very simple but powerful
>problem.
>Polls point out pretty clearly that when Everbody Else is asked the
>question 
>"Should gays have equal rights?" they tend to think that we should.
>Admittedly, 
>there are major caveats to this, like Everybody Else tends not to want
>us teaching
>their kids, but we don't have the luxury of fighting for the details. We
>are 
>fighting for our broad, basic rights. We don't have the luxury of
>fighting
>with our idealism, we are fighting a nasty, pragmatic battle against
>lies. I
>don't understand why it needs to be so difficult, but it obviously is.
>
>I guess this doesn't really lead anywhere, but I feel better for having
>written it. I also feel better for not being a muffin anymore. Thanks
>for 
>listening.
>
>Thorny Staples 
>

Ponderous? Pompous? Not at all. Thank God someone finally got past the
bickering and said something coherent. Please keep it up.
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: nelson@reed.edu (Nelson Minar)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: How to prevent anti-gay laws
Date: 8 Nov 92 10:24:59 GMT
Article-I.D.: reed.1992Nov8.102459.19808
Reply-To: nelson@reed.edu (Nelson Minar)
Organization: Reed College, Portland, OR

I must confess I sort of resent Shawn's representation of queer people
as narcissistic queens who only help themselves..

In article <1992Nov8.064250.4696@nevada.edu> balistik@big-brother.nevada.edu (Shawn Hicks) writes:

>What I have never seen was a group of queers sponsoring highway
>cleanup, helping the elderly shop for groceries, volunteering at the
>local zoo, participating in county fairs, sponsoring grants to local
>public radio, etc.

There are several reasons for this. First of all, queer groups *do* do
these things. PFLAG tried to get on a highway cleanup program, for
example - they were denied the right to use the word "gay" in the
little sign by the roadside. The problem is sometimes bigotry - we
aren't allowed to be openly queer when we do these things.

And queer people *do* do these things - lesbians and gays are
overwhelmingly represented in volunteer organizations. Seriously. It's
so well know, that the lesbian volunteer is a cliche. The problem here
is visibility - folks just don't realize that nice Susan who helps
feeding the homeless is lesbian.

>Kenny Kerr, a famous drag artist who performs on the strip, had his
>home firebombed and the words "die fag" were painted on his driveway.
>Two nights later the Jewish Antidefamation League, and the NAACP held
>a rally on the steps of the burned home protesting the
>discrimination.  Not one single queer organization was there with them.

I suspect this particular case is specific to wherever Kenny Kerr
lives in. At least here in Portland, the Lesbian Community Project
(among others) consistently shows up at all anti-discrimination
events. There was an enormous queer presence at the 2 year anniversary
of Mulegata Seraw's death (the Metzger related murder).

>Someone mentioned coalition building in an earlier post.  Maybe it's
>time to reach out from behind the "pink" curtain and look for other
>organizations who support us.

I agree with what you are saying, in principle. We need more people to
realize what good citizens most lesbians and gays are. I don't agree
with part of your message, though, this "pink curtain" idea. We don't
create the pink curtain - others do. It's a daily struggle to tear it
aside.
                __
nelson@reed.edu \/                   Finger nelson@reed.edu for my public key
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: jakec@ralvmm.vnet.ibm.com (Jake Coughlin)
Subject: Re: Size of LGB Vote
Originator: jakec@ralvmm.vnet.ibm.com
Date: Fri, 06 Nov 92 13:19:56 GMT
Organization: IBM T. J. Watson Research

rjwill6@pbsdts.sdcrc.pacbell.com (Rod Williams):
> 2.4 percent of those polled identified themselves as
> homosexual or bisexual, but Murray Edelman, the poll director,
> believes this was an undercount.

well, he's right.  my exit poll did not ask if *i*
were LGB.  it asked if i had a friend or relative
who was LGB (i guess my boyfriend counts.)  and, i
did fill out the entire form.
-- 
Queer Without A Cause!
Jason Coughlin ( jakec@ralvmm.vnet.ibm.com )
"I find myself suddenly in the world, and I recognize that I have one
right alone: that of demanding human behavior of the other." -- Fanon
From: jns@elea.umd.edu (J. N. Shaumeyer)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Re: Lesbianville on 20/20
Keywords: soc.lesbian, soc.muffdiver, soc.dykes, soc.pimply.teenaged.boys
Date: 6 Nov 92 18:59:05 GMT
Organization: Militant Homosexual Lobby, Gay Lifestyles, Inc.


Caroline Jean Lee (cjlee@netcom.com) wrote:
 
> Perhaps instead of creating a separate group, we could request that
> the men in this group (no lack of those!), in particular the regular
> postrs, make more of an effort to post about issues/news relevant to
> lbo  women and take more of an interest in those threads.  

A good suggestion, and I could try.  But Caroline,
I feel a bit painted into a corner, and don't know
quite how to get out.  If I try to take more of an
interest [in a visible way] by posting more in one
of these threads, then I run the risk of being just
another male voice, swamping out the women's voices.

I'll repeat what I've said before: I like the mixed
company.

I have some hope of shifting the balance slightly;
a lesbian of my acquaintance on campus is just
discovering electronic resources, and I hope to
recruit her to soc.motss this very afternoon.

Which leads me to ask the following.  I would like
to tell her more about the sappho mailing list and
other resources which might be of interest to her
but which I know little or nothing about.  If one
of you would care to introduce her to things of
possible interest to her, perhaps you could drop
me a note which I will pass on, and introduce you.

--jns
From: misek@solbourne.com (Steve Misek)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: COLORADO -- facts without misspellings
Date: 6 Nov 1992 14:05:45 -0700
Organization: Solbourne Computer, Inc., Longmont, CO  USA
NNTP-Posting-Host: marvin-gw.solbourne.com



Lets try this again... I didn't realize my brain was on hold when I typed
it in, and the number of misspellings drove me crazy...  :-)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Many people wrote back to me and asked for more facts, and asked what they
can do.  I called The Equal Protection Campaign (EPOC) and asked them exactly
that question, the following summarizes that information.  Also, PLEASE! call
your local community papers and fax them this information so that we can get
this information to as many people as possible.

1. PLEASE CALL OUR GOVERNOR AND VOICE YOUR SUPPORT

	Gov. Roy Romer
	303-866-2471

	The other side is inundating him with calls, we need to turn the
	tide.  Romer is VERY supportive of our campaign, and needs to hear
	from people in our state and other states that he is supported.

2. Please follow that up with a note to the Governor, to thank him for
	supporting our cause.

		Governor Roy Romer
		136 State Capitol
		Denver, Colorado   80203

3. The current campaign was fought by EPOC (Equal Protection Campaign)
	If you would like to support their campaign (The No on 2 campaign)
	they'd love to hear from you (and funds would be appreciated as well)

		EPOC
		P.O. Box 300476
		Denver, Colorado   80203

		303-839-5540 (office)
		303-839-1361 (fax)

		Make checks out to: EPOC

4. The next campaign will be fought in the courts.  Lambda legal defense has
	already started gearing up for the colorado and national fight:

		Lambda Legal Defense Fund / Colorado Initiative
		CLIP (Colorado Legal Initiative Project)
		P.O. Box 44447
		Denver, Colorado  80201

		Make checks out to: Lambda Legal Defense/Colorado Initiative

More information as I receive it:

steve misek
misek@solbourne.com
misek@parcplace.com
From: danny.ingram@business.gatech.edu (Danny Ingram)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Calendars
Date: 10 Nov 92 16:30:44 GMT
Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology

Just because my nerves need a short break from the CO2 crisis, I'd like to
propose a new, equally important topic - skin calendars for 1993 - afterall, 
who wants to pass through an entire year without the much needed monthly 
change to the new hunk-of-the-month.  After going through dozens of the 
targeted calendars at the gay bookstores, I finally found THE perfect calendar 
for me at the local Hallmark shop - Men of Summer, 1993.  Having nervously
purchased my find while the young woman carried on a lengthy conversation 
about my militar id, I trotted home rady to begin a new year with 12 
luscious young gentlemen on the beach.  

                                   Danny Ingram

Hopeless romantic still looking for the fantasy of the endless summer while
hoping my long-haired lover is not waiting in Colorado.
From: mdrayton@sr.hp.com (Mike Drayton)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: ""The Hidden Sailor""
Date: 9 Nov 92 21:48:11 GMT
Article-I.D.: scd.BxGxwB.JIG
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Santa Clara Division
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1.1 PL5

aberson@enh.nist.gov wrote:
> 
> In a previous article, anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson) wrote:
> > 
> >In article <38291@hoptoad.uucp> laura@hoptoad.UUCP (Laura
> >Creighton) writes:
> > 
> >>(Sim Anderson -- are you there!  Inquring minds *REALLY WANT
> >>TO KNOW!*)
> > 
> >Especially those of us you've married to him.  It's certainly
> >not that I wouldn't, you understand, though his boyfriend
> >might object, and possibly Mr. Aberson himself might.
> 
> He couldn't possibly object, Mr. Andraberson.  The more the merrier,
> you know.

How 'bout "The more, the married-er?"
-----
Mike Drayton      mdrayton@sr.hp.com       Hewlett-Packard Co.
                                           Santa Rosa, California
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: sbgreene@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Steven Greene)
Subject: Re: Lesbian Visibility on Roseanne
Originator: news@nimaster
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 19:57:43 GMT

In article <1992Nov11.110758.23595@hemlock.cray.com> steven@cray.com (Steven Levine) writes:
>Even more intriguing
>to me, her cosmetologist lover was played by Morgan Fairchild.

Yes, my favorite Morgan Fairchild quote is something along the
lines of, "What happens if the virus goes airborne?"  She uttered
this beaut in a fundie anti-gay propaganda video a few years back
(referring to HIV, of course).

Maybe this is her way of doing penance.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steven Greene     <greene@choice.princeton.edu>     NeXTMail welcomed
"Only people who die very young learn all they really need to know
in kindergarten."--Wendy Kaminer

Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: TMCCART3@ua1vm.ua.edu
Subject: Clueless people and the ACLU
Organization: The University of Alabama, Tuscaloosa
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 02:25:19 GMT

After a generally discouraging couple of weeks at the law school I attend,
topped off by a hateful picket of Bill Rubenstein's speech here, I was
glad to get a message from a professor I know that she is trying to re-
activate the ACLU chapter here. So I met with her and an ROTC student from
the undergrad campus, and we talked about how to get things going again.
 
Later, in the parking lot, I was talking to this student, and he wants the
group to focus mainly on a school funding lawsuit pending in Alabama. I told
him that was fine, but there are other issues that need to be addressed,
like the hostility I saw against gays when Rubenstein was here.
 
He cleared his throat, looked kinda uncomfortable, and said (as Dave Barry
would say, I'm not making this up), "Well, I don't really know how I feel
about all that. After all, it (ho-mo-sekkksss-al-itee, he meant) *is* im-
moral and against the law..."
 
Perhaps he's acccidentally stumbled into the wrong organization, hmmm?
 
HELP ME! Where's Amnesty International when someone needs to escape from
The Deep South?
 
 _______________________________________________________________________
|    "Be frank and explicit with your lawyer...It is his business to    |
|             confuse the issue afterwards." -- J.R. Solly              |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------------|
| __ Tracey McCartney            University of Alabama School of Law __ |
|_/______________________tmccart3@ua1vm.ua.edu______________________/_|
Xref: sparky soc.motss:47357 alt.politics.homosexuality:7146 co.politics:1912
From: ckincy@mcs213c.cs.umr.edu (Charles Kincy)
Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.politics.homosexuality,co.politics
Subject: Re: Colorado Amendment 2: The First Fatality
Date: 13 Nov 92 07:47:24 GMT
Article-I.D.: umr.1992Nov13.074724.12047
Organization: University of Missouri - Rolla

In article <1992Nov12.221645.25826@ncar.ucar.edu> gary@colossus.cgd.ucar.edu (Gary Strand) writes:
>ms> Melinda Shore
>gs> Gary Strand
>
>gs> It does not deny homosexuals equal rights. It denies the the ability of
>    the state to create quotas for gays, or give gays minority status, and 
>    it denies gays the use of the legal system to correct alleged cases of 
>    discrimination. It does not permit gay-bashing.
>
>ms> The essence of it is that it legalizes discrimination.  It says that there
>    is no legal recourse for gay men, lesbians, or bisexuals if we are fired
>    from our jobs, thrown out of our housing, lose custody of our children,
>    etc., simply for *being* gay.
>
>  My ideal world would contain no such protections for anyone. If you want to
>  fire me because I'm white, male, and het then that's your right. If I want
>  to fire you because you're female, gay, bi, a poor dresser, whatever, then
>  that should be my right.

Or black, or Mexican, or Jewish, or Mormon?  

Well, see, it would be nice to be able to extend FOA privledges to
everyone.  But, unfortunately, a few people cannot handle the responsibility
of this privledge.  So, we have to create "protected minorities" in order
to keep people from being steamrolled by those who abuse their FOA
privs.  I don't like it any more than you do, but it's necessary.

Really, what right do you have to fire someone who is bi or gay?
What does that have to do with their work performance?  Or even their
personality? 

>  Also, there's more than the legal system for seeking recourse. The boycott
>  you're promoting is one example. I have no problem with it, even though I
>  voted against #2.

Well, at least you have some redeeming qualities.  

[...teen suicides...]

Most teens commit suicide due to extreme emotional trauma.  I think
the point Melinda was making was that 30% of the time, this trauma
was caused by society's persecution of homosexuals.  If you were 
an emotionally troubled teen, faced with sure and certain persecution
for the rest of your life, suicide would be an attractive alternative.
And some are drawn by that attraction.  What a waste.

>  In any case, I don't recall many blacks committing suicide because of the
>  racism they suffered, and it's a lot easier to bash blacks than it is to
>  bash gays.

Could you elucidate?  It sounds like you're saying that it's easier
for *you* to bash blacks than to bash gays.  And I just don't want
to believe that.

cpk
From: snodgras@lclark.edu (Bil Snodgrass)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Pink dollar, red circle slash...
Date: 5 Nov 92 15:35:19 GMT
Article-I.D.: lclark.1992Nov5.153519.19910
Organization: Lewis & Clark College, Portland OR

In article <Bx8zz7.89B@apollo.hp.com> krevy_b@apollo.hp.com (Bob Krevy) writes:
>In article <1992Nov5.142734.24841@wam.umd.edu> lovegod@wam.umd.edu (Donald Andrew Agarrat) writes:
>>In article <1992Nov5.101922.16183@lclark.edu>  
>>snodgras@lclark.edu (Bil Snodgrass) writes:
>>} Here is what I would like to see.  When entering into a 
>>} business I would like for the owners to place a sign on the 
>>} door which depicts a Pink Dollar Bill.  This would mean that 
>>} this owner is happy to service the GBLO community!
>>
>>Okay.  What if L.L. Bean has a chain of stores and we NEVER  
>>found out where there money was going?  As long as they would  
>>have that little Pink Dollar Bill, they would still be taking  
>>our money.
>>
>>To put it simply, I spread my money around to different shops.   
>>If anything ugly comes out about them, I wouldn't feel as bad as  
>>plunking my money down into one ...
>>
>>Donald
>
>I've been thinking about this too.  I would like to see a widespread
>program of lavendar hearts (worn on lapel, printed on hardcopy items,
>etc.) that would signify support.  These would be worn by everyone of
>the same frame of mind (straight people as well as gays).  Supportive
>businesses may choose to affix a lavendar heart to their promotional 
>collateral, menus, etc., somehow.  
>
>Just a thought.


Good idea....we have to start now!  Yesterday, the day after I could
only have little bits of joy about measure 9 losing.  Once coming across
the river into town I looked at the skyline and I thanked God for
giving me my city back to me.  By the time I was over the bridge 
my stomach was all tense again and 1994 rang through my head.

Only twice has my life been so directly effected by an outside source.
Only one other time have I felt so helpless.  I felt like a 
calve going to slaughter.  I HATED being a victim.  I will never
be one again!!!!  I have added the word HATE to my vocabulary.  After
33 years of living on this earth I now can HATE.  I am so pissed about
my new found feeling.  

So we must start now.  We must slowly educate and show people just
how involved we are in their community.  Then they will see that our
communities are really one.  We had practically every government
official, organization on our side, papers on ourside, yet we won
by 57%!  Which is great but it has already fueled this terrorist
group!

But like Brent said, we are now the ones in power!  We are now
the ones who have been awaken and we will not go back to being 
victimized!!

Bil Snodgrass

(just looking for a few minutes of peace, I just want to let this
thing go for a minute, to live life for a moment in a non-defensive
manner!  They took that from me!  And God I am mad!!!!)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: mdrayton@sr.hp.com (Mike Drayton)
Subject: Re: Lesbian Visibility on Roseanne
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Santa Clara Division
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1.1 PL5
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 18:32:34 GMT

Michael S Ritchie (mritchie@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu) wrote:
> Re: Roseanne, does anyone know if Sandra Bernhard's movie _Without
> You I'm Nothing_ is out on tape yet?  

The world's greatest Sandra B. fan, my friend Pat P. in Sacramento, says
that the company which bought the rights to release the movie on 
videotape (I'm sure she knows the company's name; I don't) is having
financial trouble and doesn't want to make the investment to produce
and release it.  Sandra is PISSED!  

Mike Drayton      mdrayton@sr.hp.com       Hewlett-Packard Co.
                                           Santa Rosa, California
From: misek@solbourne.com (Steve Misek)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Gay Ski Week boycott? --NOT!
Date: 11 Nov 1992 13:09:51 -0700
Organization: Solbourne Computer, Inc., Longmont, CO  USA
NNTP-Posting-Host: marvin-gw.solbourne.com


 :: 
 :: >Does anyone know who sponsors the Gay Ski Week in Aspen, and whether
 :: >there is a campaign to boycott it?
 :: 
 :: I haven't heard of one yet.  IN yesterday's LA Times, though, some Aspen
 :: Tourist offical said that there wouldn't be a boycott by the 4000 or
 :: so GLBO* folks.  He stressed that GLBO* folks are welcome in Aspen.
 :: 

There currently is no campaign; and the word down from Aspen is
	Please Don't Boycott -- they're looking forward to 
	welcoming everyone back for the ski weekend...

Aspen is one of the three communities:
	Boulder, Denver, Aspen
that have initiated a law suit in the state supreme court to overthrow #2.

There have been articles in many of the local papers stating that Aspen
is looking forward to the weekend, and hope that participants aren't
frightened away by #2 and CFV.

steve
misek@solbourne.com
misek@parcplace.com

Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.politics.homosexuality,co.politics