From: sadi@physics1 (Sadi Turgut)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: Re: SDPA Hypocrites Re: Islamic Hypocrites (was A commentary from Islamic Unity Magazine)
Date: 22 Aug 1992 16:03:06 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: physics1.berkeley.edu
Keywords: Boznian cleansing is bad, Armenian cleansing is good ? How about Azeri cleansing?

In article <1747o2INNp1j@agate.berkeley.edu> ceg@dec-4.CE.Berkeley.EDU (Carl E. Grigorian) writes:
>In article <172b5bINNh28@agate.berkeley.edu> sadi@physics3 (Sadi Turgut) writes:
>>In article <1992Aug18.175307.3411@urartu.sdpa.org> dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian) writes:
>>>In the past 70 years the Armenian population has been a majority (almost 80%)
>>>in Karabagh. This area was detached from Armenia along with Nakhitchevan and
>>>given to Azerbaijan by Stalin in a jesture to Ataturk.
>>
>> What happened to your Nakhitchevan campaign, sir? It wasn't so easy, was it?
>>Perhaps you should start to call it Nahcivan now.
>
>Come to think of it, Sadi, why don't they change the Armenian name of
>Nakhichevan to something Azeri and just erase any trace of it ever being
>an Armenian city? Nakhichevan literally translates in Armenian to
>"the place of first landdes" recentfering to Noah's Arch landing on the nearby
>mount Ararat.

 So what? Istanbul's old name was Constantinople, New York used to be called
New Amsterdam, ...blah blah. In that case there is not much difference from Nakhitchevan
to Nahcivan. Do you think this is erasing its history? As Davidian pointed out
before, Nahcivan is a mostly Azeri (80%) region. They call it in whatever way
they want to call it.
  Of course, my suggestion to Davidian was for good
intention. :-) In this way, he will be cured out of his dreams and he won't
suffer a lot. :-) Look at Greeks, you will see how do they suffer for
Cons*(whatever). :-)

>>>Armenians have been demanding simple human rights in Nagorno-Karabagh. For
>>>example, teaching Armenian in schools and freedom of religion. Azeris said no
>>>and Moscow backed them.
>>
>> And for some unknown reason, Nagorno-Karabagh appears to be more prosperous
>>economically than other parts of Azarbaijan. How come, Azarbaijan, backed by
>>Moscow, supplied economic aid to the region for 70 years?
>> Isn't the Armenian appetite for NK arise from NK's economical superiority?
>
>This is totally baseless. Economic superiority? Did they just just
>find oil under Artsakh/Karabakh and made it "economically superior"
>to the industrialized, oil producing regions of Azerbaijan? Or, did
>the prices of mullberies and sheep skyrocket? Here is what my handy
>Encyclopedia Britannica says about this economic region:
>
>"As the average altitude is 4900 feet (1500m), it is one of the
>areas in the republic where broken relief impedes the development
>of transport, industry, and agriculture. Agricultural production
>is concentrated in mountain valleys. Animal husbandry constitutes
>60 percent of the gross agricultural output..."
>
>So Sadi, now why don't tell me what basis you claim that Artsakh
>/Karabakh has a superior economy?

 By economic superiority, I didn't mean highly industrilized, oil rich, etc.
In terms of welfare of the people. Unemployment rate in NK was twice
lower compared to the other regions in Azarbaijan.
Or you can look at the numbers like industrial growth in the region.
All they say is that NK was much superior to most of the other regions
in xSU and Azarbaijan. Not in terms of economical strength, but in terms of welfare.
Then, doesn't it seem strange for Azarbaijan (backed by Moscow) to
let the regions' people prosper, while they supposedly deny simple
human rights?
 And of course, there is one economy advisor Aganbegian, who was in
the front rows of the people who demanded the union of NK with Armenia,
who said he thinks it's neccessary to join to Armenia for *economical
reasons*.

>>>Today, the Armenians in Nagoro-Karabagh ask nothing more EXCEPT that they not
>>>be depopulated of that area.
>>
>> And the Muslims of Nagarno-Karabagh want to RETURN to their homeland. And
>>they want to be able to LIVE in their homes.
>
>Sure Sadi. First, the 200,000+ Armenians of Baku and Sumgait which
>had to face Azeri pogroms and were evacuated will return to the rich
>suburbs they lived in, then the 15,000 Armenians of the Shahumian 
>districts "relocated" to Armenia by Soviet and Azeri OMON forces 
>will be returned to their villages. Then the 200,000 or so Azeris
>expelled from Armenia wilgo back to Armenia and resume the role
>they played in Armenian agriculture. Then we start worrying about
>the Azeris of Artsakh/Karabakh, ok? 

 So, you mean while Armenians in NK "ask that they not be depopulated,"
Azeris who used to live in NK cannot ask to return to their homes. Is this
what you say? How can the Azeris be blamed by "ethnic cleansing" then, if
they were the ones who were cleansed?

 By the way, I couldn't pass without commenting on what you wrote.
200,000+ Armenians were living in rich suburbs (and I guess most of
them had oil related jobs), but the 200,000 or so Azeris in Armenia 
were agricultural. Probably, you said these to imply that Armenians
lost more. But, there is something peculiar here. Weren't these
Armenians supposed to be oppressed? A while ago somebody mentioned that,
Production of Azeri oil machinary facilities were dropped a lot after the
Sumgait incidents. Does this mean that, Azeri Government (backed by Moscow)
in fact forced the Armenians to work in these facilities and live in
rich suburbs, while they denied this from the Azeris. What kind of
oppression is this?

 I am sorry but I have very serious doubts about this "Armenians being
opressed in Azarbaijan in the past 70 years" thing. For me, the basic
reason of the Karbagh problem is the "Greater Armenia" dreams. And, what
SDPA is saying now is mere unfounded propaganda to feed the unrelated masses.
He is still talking about "teaching Armenian in school" stuff.

 And one more thing. From the demands of Azeris in the 1988 Baku mitings:

" While there are no journals in Nahcivan Autonomous Republic for the arts and 
  literature; is it appropriate to the Nationalities policy of Lenin,
  to build large printing facilities in Hankendi (Stepanakert) to publish
  a large number of books/journals only related to the Armenian literature?
  Isn't this defying the social justice principle of our state?"

 What is this? Is it true that there were no Azeri journals in Nahcivan
related to the literature, while there were some (many) in Karabagh
for Armenians? Who is oppressed here?

>>>[FHM] Today, in the new world order, nations do not accept change in 
>>>[FHM] geographical boundaries and will not recognize usurpation of other lands 
>>>[FHM] by force.  Knowingly or unknowingly, Armenians trampled upon this 
>>>[FHM] internationally recognized principle and attacked Nagarno-Karabagh with
>>>[FHM] the idea of annexing it to Armenia. 
>>>
>>>You fool, Armenian LIVE in Nagorno-Karabakh, they didn't GO THERE!
>>
>> Muslims used to live in Nagarno-Karabagh, and they want to go there.
>>New Armenian Republic, provided Arms and soldiers to the ethnic Armenians
>>in NK, hoping that they will join to Armenia. In their campaigns, they
>>not only displaced the Muslims in NK, but also depopulated the areas
>>between NK and Armenia from its native population, in order to open
>>a corridor between the two regions. The people who follow the net will
>
>If you mean *all* the areas between Artsakh/NK and Armenia then you
>are both misinformed and misinforming. If else, you prove it.

 If else prove what?

>They depopulated one long 7 km road and one whole village, Lachin,
>after months of total blockade by the Azeris. If Lachin was such 
>civilian village, how did it manage to force a blockade on the
>whole of Artsakh/Karabakh for over six months?

 Oh. So Lachin was not a civilian village. So it was justified to
deport the people living there.
 Back to the original point. Is
Serbia justified to depopulate the regions between Serbia and
Bosnian Serbs? Isn't there a similarity here?

 Sadi Turgut
-- 
Disclaimer: My opinions are only mine. They are not necessarily
shared by the other members of my nation, ethnic group and/or religion.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.turkish,talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,soc.history