HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jle@locus.com (John Elghani/10000000)
Subject: Re: Targetting civilians (HYPOCRICY)
Organization: LC
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 06:45:19 GMT

In article <42469@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> revans@euclid.ucsd.edu (Ron Evans) writes:
>
>	It has indeed been emphasized that Islam calls for the respect of
>	innocent civilian lives.  This may explain why, as Scuds 
>        rained down on Israel, TV cameras captured Palestinians
>        jumping up and down on rooftops yelling, "This is a
>        sacrilege!"
> 
><4658@copper.Denver.Colorado.EDU> aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Shaqeeqa) writes:
>
>
>>Saddam did not have the authority under
>>Islamic law to declare jihad, and furthermore, Islam does not have
>>anything to do with the Gulf War, Scuds, or Palestinians.  
>
>
>
>	This helps emphasize my point, which is that
>        people in Hamas (and those Palestinians on the
>        rooftops) who claim to be Islamic are in fact hypocrites.

Lets see.  Did Ron Evans, a peacefull Jew, get upset at the deadly
bombardment of the US on Iraq, especially against the civilians,
or the have-no-say soldiers?  I doubt it.

Did you ever criticize the terrorist government of Israel for 
its bombardment of refugee camps, randomly?  I doubt it.

If you justify the bombardment of israeli jets of Lebanon, in any
form, then you should not blame the Palestinians (EVEN THE MUSLIMS)
for seeing the SCUD as a relief against their oppressor.

Your state ,israel, claims to bomb Lebanon's cities because
they include terrorists.  AND IRAQ bombed Tel AVIV because it includes
terrorists as well.  The terrorist in TEL AVIV, is a common terrorist
of islam and arabism in the land of Hamas and Fatah.  Saddam and 
Fatah are arabists, and Hamas is islamic.

Therefore, the bombing of Lebanon is equiv. to that of the SCUDS,
but the SCUDS were much less effective against innocents.

A single israeli bombing trip in 1981 (Al fakhane massacre), killed around
1000 palestinian civilians and 2 PLO fighters in 15 minutes.

jle

>-- 
>Ron Evans (revans@math.ucsd.edu)


Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Israeli soldiers kill Palestinian boy
Organization: The Department of Redundancy Department
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 92 17:18:54 GMT

Apparently Brad/Ali:

>>Please note that there is a difference between a police officer who is
>>trying to maintain peace and order and a soldier who is trying to
>>maintain a military occupation. I feel sorry for the soldiers who are
>>made to go abroad and oppress people by command of their government but
>>I applaud the action of the Palestinians. Soldiers engaged in military
>>duty on foreign soil (the Occupied Gaza Strip) must expect to die. I

Too bad for those Imperialist U.S. Marines in Somlia, huh?  
Yankees out of Africa? 

>>Brad Hernlem (hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU)

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com              10 years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions. standard of a failed President.
From: jcg@teradata.com (Jonathan Gingerich)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Israeli soldiers kill Palestinian boy
Date: 11 Dec 92 20:39:44 GMT
Reply-To: jcg@tdat.teradata.com (Jonathan Gingerich)
Organization: Teradata Corp., El Segundo, CA

In article <1992Dec9.233632.8706@ennews.eas.asu.edu> makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky) writes:
>...
># What "riot"?  The "police riot"?  The Muslims gathered to counter-protest
># were deliberately or accidently tear-gassed and responded by driving the
># militia from the plaza but not before one of there number was shot dead.
># The crowd then stayed in the plaza until it was stormed by the militia using
># automatic fire which killed the rest of the victims.
>	You have to be kidding.  They had pre-positioned huge rocks to
>throw on Jewish worshipers below.  It was a planned and pre-meditated
>attack.  Only a miracle prevented Jewish fatalities.

For David I suggest another session with his therapist, for the rest of you,
rest assured that issue has been discussed at length previously and not only
is everything David asserts untrue, it was shown so by the Israeli judicial
inquiry.

Jon.
"They should be given medals"
- a poster referring to IDF troops convicted of warcrimes.
From: aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Shaqeeqa)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Targetting civilians
Date: 14 Dec 92 03:10:01 GMT
Organization: University of Colorado at Denver

>What is wrong with believing in the principles of Islam, Ron?  Your
>suggestion that we should be carbon copies (or brainwashed) by
>Islamic doctrine only promotes your ignorance and bigotry. 

I mean, of course, that jle and I do not hold the exact same
thoughts concerning Islamic doctrine as do millions of other
people.  We are not carbon copies even if we express similar
feelings and perspectives.  (Hey, at least we have the courage
whereas so many others are afraid of expressing it - for fear
of being stereotyped by you and others.)  I didn't mean to
suggest that belief in pure Islamic doctrine means being brainwashed!

Anisa

	"So if you see me acting strangely, don't be surprised ..."
From: revans@euclid.ucsd.edu (Ron Evans)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Targetting civilians
Date: 14 Dec 92 05:37:07 GMT

<4674@copper.Denver.Colorado.EDU> aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Shaqeeqa) writes:


>Your suggestion that we should be carbon copies (or brainwashed) by
>Islamic doctrine only promotes your ignorance and bigotry.  (Hey,

	Allow me to clarify.  Some here have pointed out that Islam
	deems it wrong to kill innocents, while others here have
	stated that the Scud attacks were consistent with Islamic
	principles.  I am interested in what the consensus is (if
	any), and how this apparent contradiction can be
	reconciled).

>I guess its no secret by now that you dispise Islam.) 

	There are many aspects to Islam that I find quite beautiful.
	I confess to despising certain facets of Islamic Law,
	particularly the harsh, outmoded punishments for victimless
	crimes.
-- 
Ron Evans (revans@math.ucsd.edu)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: bob1@cos.com (Bob Blackshaw)
Subject: Re: Dual citizenship, US-Israel. (was Re: Kahane's philosophy)
Organization: Corporation for Open Systems
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 19:34:08 GMT

In <1glj5tINNr1u@early-bird.think.com> shaig@Think.COM (Shai Guday) writes:

>Just one further question:

>How does the U.S. State Dept. regard the following scenraio:
>A is a citizen of FOO.
>A becomes a naturalized citizen of the US and swears his allegiance to the US.
>FOO's laws state that FOO's citizens can not give up their citizenship.

>One the one hand, he isn't a dual national, but on the other hand he is.

Substitute Canada for FOO. You get naturalized here in the U.S. and
renounce all previous allegience. However, Canada does not recognize
this and insists that to renounce your citizenship, you must appear
in person at a government passport office or embassy. So you are a
dual citizen, even if you pledge allegience with the best of
intentions. No sweat, since Canada and the U.S. are unlikely to
get to shooting at each other (despite some of the dingbats you
see posting on the net :-) ).

REB
From: jle@lear.bos.locus.com (John Elghani)
Subject: Re: Deportation vs. Murder
Organization: LC
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 22:01:15 GMT

In article <1gvbffINNo7s@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman) writes:
>
>   There has been much talk about the deportations in the context
>of their political significance.  I wonder why terrorist activity
>and murders on the part of Arab terrorists directed Israelis, are
>not regarded as politically significant?  There seems to be a bit
>of a double standard here.


Not true.  Remember, the Palestinians are under the brutal occpation
of israel.  2 years a go, you seemed to justify the killing of Iraqi
soldiers by the Kuwaitis because the iraqi soldier is an occupier, 
and the Kuwaiti is under occupation.  Now you don't  see it; YOU  
ARE THE ONE WITH DOUBLE STANDARDS.

>   A man is kidnapped.  A short time later, his body is found out
>on the side of some road, dumped like a bag of garbage.  The body

But if he was an occuping Iraqi soldier in Kuwait, you wouldn't have
a problem with that, right?

>indicates that he was bound and repeatedly stabbed to death.  The
>murder was carried out by an organization sworn to kill Jews.  It
>is a terrorist organization with hundreds of members.  They swore
>an oath to try to kill Israelis whenever and however they can.
>
>   They are rounded up and booted out of the area.  They received
>money and clothing, and then were shown the door.  This eviction,
>this kicking out of terrorists is being procalimed as cruel.  But
>there has been not one word of protest from a single humanitarian
>or human rights group about kidnapping an innocent man, tying him
>up, and repeatedly stabbing him to death.  Why does the world say
>nothing about this act, but moans about the eviction of those who
>have sworn themselves to perform such acts?
>
>  Have you 'humanitarians' no standards?  Are you so biased as to
>give tacit approval to such a torturous and sadistic murder?  Why
>do you care more about the murderers than you do the victim?  Are
>you indifferent to bloodshed if the blood being shed is Jewish?
>
>   Jews are also human beings.  Many of you may not think so, but
>we are.  Is it acceptable to kidnap someone, bind him, and murder
>him by repeatedly stabbing him, if he is a Jew?  Mr. Toledano did
>not ever kill anyone.  He was not a murderer.  But he was killed.
>He was butchered like a piece of cattle.  And yet you who yell at
>the world about the eviction of people sworn to commit such acts,
>you say nothing about this man's death.
>
>   The concept of human rights is one that should apply to people
>universally.  Furthermore, if one considers deporting a person to
>be worse than murdering a person, one has a distorted view of the
>severity of these to actions.  Would YOU rather be given clothing
>and money, and be kicked out.., or would you rather be kidnapped,
>tied in rope from head to toe, and be knifed to death?


Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: jle@lear.bos.locus.com (John Elghani)
Subject: Re: Can anyone answer a real quick, simple question?
Organization: LC
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1992 05:40:18 GMT

In article <cubsfan.724814873@camelot> cubsfan@camelot.bradley.edu (Michael Silverman) writes:
>The United Nations condemned Israeli expulsion of Palestinians from
>the Occupied Territories.
>
>My question...why did the UN not condemn the acts of terrorism
>which *led* to the expulsions?
>Can anyone (pro or anti -Israel) answer this?

I wonder myself, did the UN ever condemn the occupation of Palestine, 
which really led to this.

As to pro and anti israel, no one with a human heart can ever be pro 
israel.

jle
From: astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein)
Subject: Re: Israeli soldiers kill Palestinian boy
Organization: NYSERNet, Inc.
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 14:35:59 GMT

bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay) writes:

>I can't seem to interpret this in any other way than that Palestinian
>violence against Palestinians somehow justifies Israeli violence
>against Palestinians.  Despite seeing this presented as an argument
>quite a lot of times, I am still at a loss about its logic.
>Perhaps you can explain it?

Israel, as the administrator of the territories, has the
responsibility to try to maintain peace and security there.  An
impossible job, obviously.  I have yet to seen Israel initiating any
violence, although they obviously must use some measures that are
stronger than politely saying "please stop throwing stones, molotov
cocktails and hand grenades" in order to do anything about the rampant
Palestinian Arab terrorism and violence.

-- 
Alan H. Stein   -----  AJIN   -----  astein@israel.nysernet.org
From: revans@euclid.ucsd.edu (Ron Evans)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Deporting "Agitators"
Date: 14 Dec 92 09:47:12 GMT

<Bz8Gx7.I51@world.std.com> wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire) writes:

>And let's keep in mind that the "law" under which Palestinians
>are living in the occupied territories has been described by
>Israelis themselves as "Nazilike." (These are the same laws that
>the British used to oppress Jews before the founding of Israel.)
>No person in his right mind and with self-respect would live
>under such laws without violently resisting them. 

	Does this mean that the Palestinians in the West Bank
	were not in their right minds during the 17 years following
	the Jordanian annexation of 1950?





-- 
Ron Evans (revans@math.ucsd.edu)
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:23600 talk.politics.soviet:9788 soc.culture.europe:10541
From: michael.polymenakos@factory.com (Michael Polymenakos) 
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.europe
Subject: Because, no (*Turk*) left alive in (* x-Soviet Armenia *)
Date: 16 Dec 92 21:02:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Invention Factory's BBS - New York City, NY - 212-274-8298v.32bis
Reply-To: michael.polymenakos@factory.com (Michael Polymenakos) 


(*
Ted Schuerzinger writes:
>Remember -- Argic is a computer program.  It can keep up this crap
>endlessly if we let it.  If we just ignore its racist claims, it should
>shut up -- it will have nothing to respond to.
>
>--Ted Schuerzinger
*)

There has to be a way out.... I think my good friend (* Tri* *) tried
with /* */ style comments and failed. But (* MUTLU *) is written in the
(* KEMAL *) language, where the crescent-and-star characters are used
for comments! This has got to work!

(* Michael *)
                                                                                                                         
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Israeli soldiers kill Palestinian boy
Date: 13 Dec 1992 07:09:05 GMT
Organization: Australian National University
Distribution: world
Reply-To: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au
NNTP-Posting-Host: 150.203.23.70

In article 22288@colorado.edu, perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (Eric S. Perlman) writes:
>In article <1602@tdat.teradata.COM> jcg@tdat.teradata.com (Jonathan Gingerich) writes:
>>In article <4570@bimacs.BITNET> ehrlich@bimacs.BITNET (Gideon Ehrlich) writes:

>>>  A mericans. please inform us what an American soldier is expected to
>>>do if he is stoned at Somally ?

>>Leave.

>While I don't often side with Gideon Ehrlich, in this case I am forced
>to.  Jonathan, the UN mandate given to the multinational forces
>currently operating in Somalia does allow shooting back if resistance is
>met.  Anyone who doesn't think that stoning doesn't fall under the
>category of possibly deadly force needs to re-think their position.
>Under the UN mandate, the US (or any of the other nations') forces would
>be justified in countering resistance.  [..rest deleted..]

I can't believe my eyes.  If American soldiers start killing Somali 
children (I include younger teenagers) who throw stones at them
there will an international outcry like you have never seen.

>I sometimes have a hard time believing how naive people can be.

You said it.

>     Eric S. Perlman 				 <perlman@qso.colorado.edu> 

Brendan.




Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: zmbenhal@netcom.com (Zeyd M. Ben-Halim)
Subject: Re: Can anyone answer a real quick, simple question?
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1992 05:38:57 GMT

In article <cubsfan.724814873@camelot> cubsfan@camelot.bradley.edu (Michael Silverman) writes:
>The United Nations condemned Israeli expulsion of Palestinians from
>the Occupied Territories.
>
>My question...why did the UN not condemn the acts of terrorism
>which *led* to the expulsions?

Because the deportation is an act of STATE and is illegal under INTERNATIONAL
law. The murder of the border guard is illegal under Israeli law and it is
up to that state to deal with it according to it's laws.
If the UN condemned every murder in the world it would take forever.
The fact that state in this case engaged in deportation/collective punishment/
No due process of the law is against the Geneva convention whichever way you
interpret it. If you think that the UN is picking on Israel it is because it is
the ONLY occupying force in the world today.
If Israel ended the occupation and gave the palestinians the same rights the
jewish population have (no less and no more) the whole problem could be reduced
to isolated incidents by fanatic individuals and not a state policy.

Zeyd

>
>Can anyone (pro or anti -Israel) answer this?
>
>
>--
>cubsfan@camelot.bradley.edu
>
>NOTICE:  I lose this account in a few days, so *please* direct all replies
>to my new address: --->>   cubsfan@oread.cc.ukans.edu
>
>"One likes to believe in the freedom of baseball" - Geddy Lee
From: bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: McGuire caught lying, and his response.
Date: 19 Dec 1992 13:35:04 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: thor.ins.cwru.edu


From Wayne McGuire...

#To: Mark Ira Kaufman
#
# MIK> This is the SECOND TIME you claim that you have received
# MIK> hate mail from me!  YOU ARE A LIAR!  You've NEVER gotten
# MIK> one piece of mail from me in your life.  I HEARBY GIVE YOU
# MIK> UNRESTRICTED PERMISSION TO REPOST ANY MAIL THAT YOU HAVE
# MIK> RECEIVED FROM ME. Please realize that if you do not post any
# MIK> mail received from me, this group will realize what a lying
# MIK> piece of garbage you are.
#
#Why Monsieur Kaufman, you have just provided us with a wonderful
#example of the kind of hate mail I am referring to. 

    The truth is that you have publicly claimed that you received
    mail from me.  You lied.  And you got caught.  Now you put on
    this lame act of pretending that you were refering to posting
    publicly in the group, when you were calling it 'mail.'  Even
    YOU are not that stupid.  And we are not stupid enough to buy
    your little charade.  You lied and got caught.  If you had an
    ounce of class, you would apologize for the lie.  Please stop
    insulting the intelligence of those in this group.
                                                   
    And if you really ARE so stupid that you do not know that the 
    word 'mail' means MAIL, you should not be allowed onto usenet
    until you know what you are talking about.

    So tell us Wayne.  Are you corrupt or stupid..., or both?
From: jle@lear.bos.locus.com (John Elghani)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Israeli soldiers kill Palestinian boy
Date: 19 Dec 92 08:00:36 GMT
Organization: LC

In article <1992Dec17.214707.26971@bony1.bony.com> jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni) writes:
>In article <1992Dec13.060357.2435100@locus.com> jle@locus.com (John Elghani/10000000) writes:
>>Do you think those people are throwing rocks out of joy?  Especially,
>>since they know they could get shot and killed right before the
>>rock lands.  IT IS FREEDOM FROM AN OPRESSOR- GOT IT?
>
>How many times have we seen Arab mothers say that they are proud to
>have borne children who will die in the name of the greater flory of
>Allah?  Perhaps joy has something to do with it, after all.  

Come-on Jake, you are smarter than that, I thought!!
To die for the name of God is to fight those that opress the muslims,
attempt to block the expansion of belief in God, fight islam
just because it is islam, or a fight for your very right.

Those children that are getting killed are fighting opression and 
are attempting to regain their right from an occupier.

If you are right, muslims should kill themselves for joy, then why
do they wait for israel to kill them,  they can put themselves
on fire.

jle

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Israeli soldiers kill Palestinian boy
Organization: LC

In article <1992Dec17.214707.26971@bony1.bony.com> jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni) writes:
>In article <1992Dec13.060357.2435100@locus.com> jle@locus.com (John Elghani/10000000) writes:
>
>>Do you think those people are throwing rocks out of joy?  Especially,
>>since they know they could get shot and killed right before the
>>rock lands.  IT IS FREEDOM FROM AN OPRESSOR- GOT IT?
>
>How many times have we seen Arab mothers say that they are proud to
>have borne children who will die in the name of the greater flory of
>Allah?  Perhaps joy has something to do with it, after all.  

Come-on Jake, you are smarter than that, I thought!!
To die for the name of God is to fight those that opress the muslims,
attempt to block the expansion of belief in God, fight islam
just because it is islam, or a fight for your very right.

Those children that are getting killed are fighting opression and 
are attempting to regain their right from an occupier.

If you are right, muslims should kill themselves for joy, then why
do they wait for israel to kill them,  they can put themselves
on fire.

jle
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: nabeel@sce.carleton.ca (Rosignolo)
Subject: Re: : Homosexuality in Islam
Organization: Carleton University
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 22:06:40 GMT

In <42467@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> revans@euclid.ucsd.edu (Ron Evans) writes:

" 	Irrelevant: stealing and killing are not victimless crimes.
" 	Yes, a lesbian could fight her sexual urges, but why
" 	should she have to?  Similarly, a white woman could fight  
" 	her urge to marry a black man, but why should she have to?   
"         Just because racists find miscegenation indecent?

   The society is enough a victim. As long as you are a member of the society
you have to be positive. If you want to live on your own, you can go in the
desert or mountains and live however the hell you wish.

" 	One can work to overturn bigoted laws.  Witness the
"         US Civil Rights movement.

   That is possible where there is no god. God exists in a Muslim universe.
Besides, the U.S. government has to keep people shut up by this freedom as
long as it uses the hell out of them as everybody knows. It is just another
bargain.

             _
 |\_________(@)= |CENSORED|    The above is fiction. I hope you enjoyed it!
   \_\  --/ _/                      
     \=====/       "wa lI qalamon  fI 'onmolI  'in hazaztohO            
        ||            famA  .duRunI   'aLA  'ahoZa   lmohaNadA
        ~~          'i_thA .sUla fawqa .Tirsi waq^o .sarIrihI
                     fa'iNa  .sulIla  lmashrafiYi  lahO  .sudA" 
                                           -- ibn Sana' Al-Mulk