HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: gary@ke4zv.uucp (Gary Coffman)
Newsgroups: sci.space,talk.politics.space
Subject: Re: Redefining failure, space camps, & other changes of subject
Date: 29 Sep 92 13:35:39 GMT
Reply-To: gary@ke4zv.UUCP (Gary Coffman)
Organization: Gannett Technologies Group

In article <1992Sep27.230817.23400@techbook.com> szabo@techbook.com (Nick Szabo) writes:
>
>The stated goal being a flight every week, the actual result being less
>than a flight per month.  Of course, we're allowed to redefine that
>endlessly as well, just as we're allowed to decrease the functionality
>of the space station, increase its cost from the promised $8 billion
>to over $100 billion, and use accounting gimmickry and clever arguments
>to say, "hey, that's what we planned all along!"  I was there when
>the promise was made, so let's not dredge up the Boeing accounting -- SSF 
>was sold as an $8 billion project, in disregard of what Boeing 
>engineers actually projected as the costs, information that was 
>not made available to me at the time. We were shamefully involved 
>in promoting the wrong numbers, because we were operating by wishful 
>thinking; we didn't bother to think critically and ask the right 
>questions. Similar NASA/NSS figures on astronaut projects in the 
>future should be con sidered against this history of deceit.

$100 billion for Fred is a bit higher than other sources claim, but
it's in the ballpark for *life cycle* costs of the station. That's
roughly $3.3 billion a year over 30 years, or roughly 1/5th of NASA's
yearly budget. NASA doesn't present life cycle cost figures to Congress
when it sells a program. It only shows the upfront hardware costs,
neglecting launch costs. Thus we currently are hearing about $200 million
science probes that don't include the $180 million launch cost or the
continuing DSN costs, data reduction and analysis costs, etc. Life cycle 
costs of science probes such as Magellan and the Voyagers would be much 
higher than their advertised program costs too. We've got to take a new 
costing strategy when looking at new start programs so we'll have a better 
idea of how they'll effect continuing budgets. Then we've got to do a much 
harder job, we've got to estimate the value of the continuing *returns* made
available to us by the new capabilities. That's a slippery number to
pin down with research facilities since specific discoveries can't be 
predicted well in advance of start of operations. The common wisdom says
that research facilites almost always pay off, though not necessarily
soon or in expected directions. They are precisely the kinds of risks
that government is designed to undertake. The projects with guaranteed
returns can safely be left to private enterprise.

Gary
Newsgroups: sci.space
From: fcrary@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (Frank Crary)
Subject: Re: PUTTING VENUS IN AN ORBIT SIMILAR TO THE ORBIT OF THE EA
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1992 16:43:05 GMT

In article <270@mindlink.bc.ca> Alan_Barclay@mindlink.bc.ca (Alan Barclay) writes:
>In a previous message you said that mars' gravity was too light to hang on the
>lighter gasses, thus the atmosphere is thin.  Titan, a moon of Saturn is
>slightly smaller than mars and has an atmospheric density twice earths at the
>surface.  How do you explain that? :)

Actually, that isn't the primary reason for Mars' thin atmosphere. But
a planet's ability to retain gases has to do with both temperature _and_
gravity. If a gas molecule's thermal velocity is greater than the 
planet's escape velocity, it will be lost (very rough approximation).
Lighter gases have higher thermal velocities at the same temperature, so
they are more easily lost.

                                                   Frank Crary
                                                   CU Boulder
From: PHARABOD@FRCPN11.IN2P3.FR
Newsgroups: sci.space
Subject: What is this ?
Date: 5 Oct 92 14:38:15 GMT
Article-I.D.: cs.BvnLD2.4EC.1
Distribution: sci
Organization: [via International Space University]
X-Added: Forwarded by Space Digest
Original-Sender: isu@VACATION.VENARI.CS.CMU.EDU

Topcoat writes (3 Oct 92 19:49:15 GMT):

>>Not necessarily, since the altitude displayed on the F-16's Westinghouse
>>APG-66 radar display screen (upper right hand corner) has only two
>>digits. 07 means 7000 + or - 500, 12 means 12000 + or - 500, etc...
>>So in this report, 7000 could be 6501, and 6000 could be 6499.
>>
>>J. Pharabod

>Looks like bad data, was the source a pulse doppler radar or pulse?

What do you mean by "source" ? If it is the radar which registered the
echoes, it was a Westinghouse APG-66 (a fairly common model for F-16),
in air-to-air mode, with radar range selected 10. If you mean the target,
that is the question.

>                                                                    If
>this was FAA "primary" data I'd call it jitter and disregard

The Belgian military did not call it jitter, and did not disregard.
There are several other records (there were several lock-ons that night).

J. Pharabod
From: ktl@wag.caltech.edu (Kian-Tat Lim)
Newsgroups: sci.space
Subject: Re: Wealth in Space
Date: 5 Oct 1992 07:26:46 GMT
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena, CA
Distribution: sci
NNTP-Posting-Host: sgi1.wag.caltech.edu

In article <1992Oct3.183327.7587@cs.rochester.edu> dietz@cs.rochester.edu (Paul Dietz) writes:
>In article <BvJ5Ks.J4x.1@cs.cmu.edu> pgf@srl01.cacs.usl.edu ("Phil G. Fraering") writes:
>> Anyone have any comments on large flimsy structure mass spectrometers?
>
>The problem there is that you then need to make the *magnets* really
>large.

We've got really large magnets in space: the Earth's magnetic field,
or Jupiter's, or the Sun's.

Objection #1: The fields are relatively weak.
Solution: Increase the path length, and decrease the ion speed.  Not really
	a problem given lots of vacuum.

Objection #2: Nonuniformity and instability of field.
Solution: ???  I think this one's a show-stopper, unfortunately.  If we're
	dealing with well-separated masses, perhaps large collection buckets
	can compensate for instabilities.

Objection #3: Even with a 100-mile-long spectrometer, you still can't get
	throughputs in the tons/year range.
Solution: ???  I think this one's a show-stopper, too.

-- 
Kian-Tat Lim (ktl@wag.caltech.edu, KTL @ CITCHEM.BITNET, GEnie: K.LIM1)
Ex-System Manager, Materials & Molecular Simulation Center, Caltech
Henry Spencer left-of-|, Steve Lamont p*, Margaret "*" Puckette signature fan
Newsgroups: sci.space
From: baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov (Ron Baalke)
Subject: Re: Pioneer Venus (Re)Entry
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.3-4   
Reply-To: baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 11:40:13 GMT

In article <44815@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU>, jmcd@cea.berkeley.edu (John McDonald) writes...
> 
>I read in the weekend paper that they had determined that
>the Pioneer Venus orbiter had run out of fuel to maintain
>an orbit.  They predicted that it may enter Venus' atmosphere
>this week.  

It looks like the spacecraft will enter the atmosphere on October 7 
(Wednesday) and burn up on October 8 (Thursday).  Ames Research Center is
collecting science data from the spacecraft as it passes over the top of
the atmosphere.  
     ___    _____     ___ 
    /_ /|  /____/ \  /_ /|     Ron Baalke         | baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov
    | | | |  __ \ /| | | |     Jet Propulsion Lab |
 ___| | | | |__) |/  | | |__   M/S 525-3684 Telos | Einstein's brain is stored
/___| | | |  ___/    | |/__ /| Pasadena, CA 91109 | in a mason jar in a lab
|_____|/  |_|/       |_____|/                     | in Wichita, Kansas.
Newsgroups: sci.space
Subject: LIST OF SPACE LAUNCHES WANTED
From: pols051@csc.canterbury.ac.nz
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 01:55:43 GMT
Organization: University of Canterbury, Christchurch, New Zealand

I may be visiting the United States in 1993.   Since childhood I have had a
lifelong interest in space exploration, and for this reason I would like to
time my visit to Florida so that I can watch a shuttle launch.   
Please could someone e-mail to me a list of the proposed schedule for
such flights for 1993.   Also, are there any other interesting or historical 
flights (shuttle or otherwise) taking off from any other part of the United 
States that might be worth watching?

Also, I may be visiting Europe and several states of the CIS.   Does anyone
have a list of Russian launches during this period and information on how I
might get to see them?   Alternatively, are there any other historic or
significant launches anywhere else in the world?

Thanks to anyone who can help me on this.

Andrew Hoy
Political Science Department
University of Canterbury
Christchurch, New Zealand.
From: bluelobster+@CMU.EDU (David O Hunt)
Newsgroups: sci.space
Subject: Re: Russia's OPERATIONAL Starwars Defense System
Date: 30 Sep 92 21:54:31 GMT
Organization: Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA

Whatever he's smoking, I WANT SOME!




David Hunt - Graduate Slave |     My mind is my own.      | Towards both a
Mechanical Engineering      | So are my ideas & opinions. | Palestinian and
Carnegie Mellon University  | <<<Use Golden Rule v2.0>>>  | Jewish homeland!
====T=H=E=R=E===I=S===N=O===G=O=D=========T=H=E=R=E===I=S===N=O===G=O=D=====
Email:  bluelobster+@cmu.edu    Working towards my "Piled Higher and Deeper"

"Out there is a fortune waiting to be had; do you think I'd let it go you're
mad - you got another think coming!" -- Judas Priest
Newsgroups: sci.space
From: sysmgr@king.eng.umd.edu (Doug Mohney)
Subject: Re: Nick Szabo Disinformation debunking (Re: Clinton and Space Funding)
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 92 18:04:24 GMT
Organization: Computer Aided Design Lab, U. of Maryland College Park
Reply-To: sysmgr@king.eng.umd.edu

In article <27SEP199216051882@judy.uh.edu>, wingo%cspara.decnet@Fedex.Msfc.Nasa.Gov writes:

>I changes my mind slightly while writing this.  Fission will be the tech of
>choice in Cislunar Space and Fusion for everthing else. We ain't gonna
>have either one if you keep pushing it back into the future with unsupported
>statments. 

I can't believe I just read this. Eco-political considerations will keep
fission out of near-earth space. If you've got fusion, you've got fusion for
everywhere, unless I'm grossly missing something on the byproducts of a fusion
plant verses the neuroticism which must go into place to make sure a fission
plant doesn't end up in the atmosphere.


                 Play in the intelluctual sandbox of Usenet 

  -- >                  SYSMGR@CADLAB.ENG.UMD.EDU                        < --
Xref: sparky sci.space:13822 news.answers:3189
From: steinly@topaz.ucsc.edu (Steinn Sigurdsson)
Newsgroups: sci.space
Subject: Re: Nick Szabo Disinformation debunking (Re: Clinton and Space Funding)
Date: 29 Sep 92 14:03:12
Organization: Lick Observatory/UCO
	<27SEP199216051882@judy.uh.edu>
	<1992Sep29.170516.11468@cs.rochester.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: topaz.ucsc.edu
In-reply-to: dietz@cs.rochester.edu's message of 29 Sep 92 16:56:33 GMT

In article <1992Sep29.170516.11468@cs.rochester.edu> dietz@cs.rochester.edu (Paul Dietz) writes:


   Wingo posted the following:

   > No we are not still mining huge amounts of coal. We are mining less
   > coal today than in the seventies.

   This is quite wrong.  From the 1992 World Almanac:

	   Year	US Coal Production (million metric tons)
	   -----------------------------------------------

	   1990	       1035.9

Did you know that if this coal was put into 100kg bags and dropped
on people's heads there is enough there to squish the entire World's
population twice over! ;-) And that's just US production!!!
	Stop the production of this criminally dangerous product
Right Now!

|  Steinn Sigurdsson	|I saw two shooting stars last night		|
|  Lick Observatory	|I wished on them but they were only satellites	|
| steinly@lick.ucsc.edu |Is it wrong to wish on space hardware?		|
| "standard disclaimer"	|I wish, I wish, I wish you'd care - B.B. 1983	|

Newsgroups: sci.space
From: tholen@galileo.ifa.hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen)
Subject: Re: Toutatis impact in 2000 AD? (was Re: Help !)
Organization: Institute for Astronomy, Hawaii
Distribution: sci
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 23:14:06 GMT

Nick Szabo writes:

> BTW, how much does this year's close approach to the earth perturb
> Toutatis' orbit, and what is the worst-case magnification between 
> errors in this year's expected flyby distance and that in 2000?

I'm not sure how you want to measure the perturbation, but one way of
doing it is to say that if you use a strictly two body ephemeris from
an epoch prior to the close approach, then at close approach the ephemeris
error would be about 900 arcsec.  The error goes down afterwards because
the topocentric distance is increasing; the linear error in the position
of the asteroid would remain rather large.

If nobody obtains astrometry during the upcoming close approach (extremely
unlikely -- the planned radar data alone would suffice), then yes, the
error would be magnified by the time of the even closer approach in 2004.
However, the uncertainty in the 2004 close approach will actually be reduced
by the December close approach, just from the astrometric data acquired.
Newsgroups: sci.space
From: rich@theophilus.msfc.nasa.gov (Rich Krum)
Subject: Re: anybody got an analysis of the perot space
Reply-To: rich@theophilus.msfc.nasa.gov
Organization: Boeing Computer Support Services
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1992 19:40:56 GMT

Suggest that you buy/borrow a copy of the book that Perot wrote:

United We Stand
How we can take back our country
Hyperion, New York
No ISBN number

I got mine from one of the Ross Perot campaign headquarters for $4.95.

Read that before the flames start.....

--rich

---
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"My opinions are my own, and my employer (Boeing Computer Support Services)
 denies any responsibility for me, all opinions in general, and anything 
 I may say, do, or be otherwise associated with outside of work for them.
 -- Use at your own risk, your mileage may vary, no news is good news."

 REPLY TO:  rich@troll1.msfc.nasa.gov     PLEASE KEEP IT "G" RATED
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroups: sci.space
From: shafer@rigel.dfrf.nasa.gov (Mary Shafer)
Subject: Re: Hypersonic test vehicle proposed
Organization: NASA Dryden, Edwards, Cal.
	<Bv7oyD.Erp@news.cso.uiuc.edu>
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1992 02:01:05 GMT

I just thought I'd mention that the engineer mentioned in the HALO
article, Ken Iliff, is my husband.

And to tie this to another thread, I've just been made HL-20 Chief
Engineer at Dryden.  Langley Research Center is the Lead Center for
HL-20, of course.

--
Mary Shafer  DoD #0362 KotFR NASA Dryden Flight Research Facility, Edwards, CA
shafer@rigel.dfrf.nasa.gov                    Of course I don't speak for NASA
 "There's no kill like a guns kill." LCDR "Hoser" Satrapa, gunnery instructor
                       "A kill is a kill."  Anonymous
From: rabjab@golem.ucsd.edu (Jeff Bytof)
Newsgroups: sci.space
Subject: Re: Blue Danube
Date: 1 Oct 1992 22:26:41 GMT
Organization: sio
NNTP-Posting-Host: lutherlab.ucsd.edu
Keywords: Blue Danube PanAm

>For some strange reason, I have visions of sleek Pan Am
>(RIP) 'liners slowly spinning across a starfield.  Have I gone nuts, or should
>I put up my 2001 tape for a while?
>--

I'd say for about 100 years.

Jeff Bytof
rabjab@golem.ucsd.edu
Newsgroups: sci.space
From: mike@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG (Mike Smithwick)
Subject: Re: Psalms from outer space?
Organization: SF-Bay Public-Access Unix
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1992 18:56:38 GMT

In article <1992Oct1.141210.1@fnalf.fnal.gov> higgins@fnalf.fnal.gov (Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey) writes:
>Trivia time:
>
>A friend has stumped me with the following question:
>
>>  Which Psalm was it that was read from space by an astronaut?        
>>My mom was wondering  (she guessed Psalm 8).                          
>
>The best I can come up with is that some passages from Genesis were
>read byt the Apollo 8 crew on Christmas in 1968, but I have no record
>that they read Psalms or any other part of the Bible.
>
>Can anybody do better than this?

It was Jim Irwin who quoted Psalms 121:1 on EVA 3 (I think) of 
Apollo 15 as he was preparing to leave the lunar surface. THe
verse went : I lift up my eyes to the hills, from whence cometh my help..."

He then said that he got a lot of help from Houston as well.

mike


-- 
"There is no problem too big that can't be solved with high explosives"-Rush

Mike Smithwick - ames!zorch!mike
From: yamauchi@ces.cwru.edu (Brian Yamauchi)
Newsgroups: sci.space
Subject: Re: Don't forget  Other Guy(was Re: Von Braun -- Hero, Villain, or Both?)
Date: 6 Oct 92 05:00:16 GMT
	<Bvno5o.C9u@zoo.toronto.edu> <1992Oct5.192844.6175@coe.montana.edu>
	<5OCT199216375494@judy.uh.edu> <1992Oct5.183016.1@fnalf.fnal.gov>
Organization: Case Western Reserve University
NNTP-Posting-Host: sartre.caisr.cwru.edu
In-reply-to: higgins@fnalf.fnal.gov's message of 6 Oct 92 00:30:16 GMT

In article <1992Oct5.183016.1@fnalf.fnal.gov> higgins@fnalf.fnal.gov (Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey) writes:
>In article <5OCT199216375494@judy.uh.edu>, st17a@judy.uh.edu (University Space Society) writes:

>> I happen to know a number of the surviving Germans and each and every one
>> of them have worked far beyond their retirements to continue to work for our
>> planet having a space faring civilization.  [...]

>I am sure there are those behind the Rust Curtain who answer the same
>description.  I for one would like to know more of their story.

There is a good book on the Soviet space program in general, and
Korolev in particular, titled _Russians_in_Space_.  The author's name
is something like Evgeny Riabchoff.  (I'm undoubtedly mangling the
spelling...)
--
_______________________________________________________________________________

Brian Yamauchi			Case Western Reserve University
yamauchi@alpha.ces.cwru.edu	Department of Computer Engineering and Science
_______________________________________________________________________________
Newsgroups: sci.space
From: wingo%cspara.decnet@Fedex.Msfc.Nasa.Gov
Subject: Re: Controversy over V-2 anniversary
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: University of Houston
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1992 03:33:00 GMT

In article <SHAFER.92Oct3174732@ra.dfrf.nasa.gov>, shafer@rigel.dfrf.nasa.gov (Mary Shafer) writes...
>On 29 Sep 92 15:57:34 GMT, higgins@fnalf.fnal.gov (Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey) said:
> 
>Bill> Apparently the fact that the A-4 was a nasty weapon that killed lots
>Bill> of people overshadows the importance of the anniversary.  
> 
>Bill> In this country, the Confederate Air Force is allowed to tell us what
>Bill> a great plane the B-17 was without visible interference...
> 
>The B-17 wasn't built by starving slave labor.  The factories weren't
>filled with representatives of the "mongrel" subhuman races that could
>be worked without food or heat or hygiene until they dropped dead or
>were hung "pour encourager les autres".
> 
>I was just looking at the V-2 in the NASM yesterday.  (Fascinating the
>way that they used an oversized bicycle chain to move the fins.)  The
>display has some rather understated remarks about the fates of the
>work force and it is eloquently silent about Werner von Braun's role
>in obtaining and using these peoples.  Looking closely at some of the
>factory photos, with the emaciated workers, is rather nasty.
> 
>--
>Mary Shafer  DoD #0362 KotFR NASA Dryden Flight Research Facility, Edwards, CA
>shafer@rigel.dfrf.nasa.gov                    Of course I don't speak for NASA
> "There's no kill like a guns kill." LCDR "Hoser" Satrapa, gunnery instructor
>                       "A kill is a kill."  Anonymous
> 

Von Braun had no role in the Miettlework factory. They actually had no 
role in the V2 outside of the development of the rocket and qualifying
it for use. The rocket team was at Peenemunde and no slave labor was used
there.  Also, the rocket team was part of the German Army not the SS as
some on other nets have stated. The team defected when the SS tried to 
take over near the end of the war.

If you really want to press the point and be so high and mighty about it
then why did we use the rocket team to build our rockets? Krafft Erike
was instrumental in the Atlas design and the Von Braun Team were instrumental
in the development of the Redstone, Jupiter, Saturn I and Saturn V.  The
rocket team was a spoil of war that we took from the Germans. In past wars
the spoils were the wealth of a nation.  The spoils that we took in WWII were
the most valuable of all, technology. The Ampex tape recorders and our entire
television industry was taken from the Germans and developed by us after the
war. The Russians took the manufacturing technology of the Germans, 
ripping up entire factories and shipping them to Russia, including the 
Miettlework factory for V2's.

There are many other examples of things that we use and rely on every day
that came from that sorry episode in history. No ones hands are clean and
to beat this horse without an understanding of the history is to grossly
distort reality. 

Dennis, University of Alabama in Huntsville
From: clj@ksr.com (Chris Jones)
Newsgroups: sci.space
Subject: Re: NASA Daily News for 10/02/92 (Forwarded)
Date: 4 Oct 92 17:23:06 EDT
Reply-To: clj@ksr.com (Chris Jones)
Organization: Kendall Square Research Corp
In-reply-to: henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer)

In article <BvJAuw.8FE@zoo.toronto.edu>, henry@zoo (Henry Spencer) writes:
>In article <1992Oct2.195759.18661@news.arc.nasa.gov> yee@trident.arc.nasa.gov (Peter E. Yee) writes:
>>... MacLean will be the third
>>astronaut from the CSA to have flown on a shuttle mission.  The first,
>>Patrick Baudry, flew on Discovery in June 1985 on the STS-51G mission.
>>Roberta Bondar was next, flying on last January's STS-42 mission, again
>>aboard Discovery.  (On Wednesday, Daily News erroneously reported
>>MacLean would be the second CSA astronaut to fly.)
>
>Okay, now it's Marc Garneau's turn to be annoyed by botched NASA reporting.
>Maybe on the third try they'll get it right.

Baudry, as I recall, was the second French astronaut, and the first to be
launched by the US.

I grew up tremendously impressed by NASA as a can-do, nearly super-humanly
competent organization.  Seeing this, and the error-riddled press release
"honoring" John Young from several days ago, and various other official
releases which garble reality brings home quite clearly that this NASA is not
that NASA.  It's both sad and infuriating.

--
Chris Jones    clj@ksr.com
Newsgroups: sci.space
From: borrel@dhhalden.no (Borre Ludvigsen)
Subject: Automated mail > file cat & decoding ?
Reply-To: borrel@dhhalden.no (Borre Ludvigsen)
Organization: Ostfold College
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 09:56:21 GMT

Automated mail > file cat & decoding ?

We need a shell script, program, gizmo that reads a mail spool file, recognizes a  
series of uuencoded images (which are not necessarily in the right order), extracts  
them, cats them in the right order, strips headers and decodes. 

Tall order?

We're running the Internet anonymous ftp site for the NOA/NESDIS wxsat waffle server  
being run by the System Support Group. Images are fed over as mail. They're not  
always in the right order and other type of mail will be interspersed. It would of  
course, also be useful to have other, plain mail automatically saved too. Ideally,  
we're looking for a mail reading agent with an IQ high enough to see the difference  
between text and uuencoded binary and to know what to do with it. Ie. read, sort,  
convert and sluice it to the right directory of anonymous ftp account.

If anyone has any tips, scripts or code that they think might help, we'd be  
etarnally grateful.


Kjell Are Refsvik <kjellr@dhhalden.no>
&
Barre Ludvigsen <borrel@dhhalden.no>