HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: tpickett@auspex.com (Tom Pickett)
Newsgroups: rec.autos
Subject: Re: How to fight AAA?
Date: 18 Dec 92 16:03:13 GMT
Reply-To: tpickett@auspex.com (Tom Pickett)
Organization: Auspex Systems, Inc.  Engineering

In article <1992Dec18.003144.4376@newsgate.sps.mot.com>, 
mark@wdcwdc.sps.mot.com (Mark Shaw) writes:
> Three things work against you in this case:  
> 1) Why would State Farm pay for the damage when there is another company 
responsible
>    for the costs.
> 2) Having State Farm pay for the damage will bump your insurance premium by 
at
>    least 10% for the next three years.
> 3) Usually an insurance company will not "cut a check" for damages until 
they
>    are repaired.  They may give you 2/3 of the claim if you can demonstrate 
that
>    the car was sold or scrapped, however.
> 
> Apparently you have not had to deal with the concepts behind damage losses 
before.
> The sad truth is that you can never really recover the out-of-pocket or 
perceived
> losses following an accident, even if it isn't your fault.  The value of 
your
> car to you is usually always lower than it will cost you to replace it. 
> 
> If you really want to come out near even, bargain with the AAA that you 
will 
> accept another car of the same age, condition and mileage as the one you 
lost. 
> This may be hard for them to find, but I have seen this work for others in 
the past.
> The simple argument is:  "If my car is only worth $3000, then you should be 
able
> to go buy one for me for that price."  Aside from that, I think you are 
probably
> going to end up with $3000.


The concept behind insurance is very simple really:

They are under contract with you to return you to the condition
you were in before the accident occured.  Very simple.  If you can
demonstrate that $3000 will not return you to the condition you were
in prior to the accident then contact the State Insurance Board and
raise Hell.

The insurance industry is not entitled to give you "low blue book"
for your car, they MUST RETURN YOU TO THE CONDITION YOU WERE IN
BEFORE YOUR LOSS.

Triple A has been sued before for this kind of thing, and they will
back off befcause you are in the right.  

A few years ago I had a '78 Scirocco totaled -- it was the other drivers
fault.  AAA (actually CSAA) offered me $1500 for my car.  The cost of
replacement was about $3500 at the time.  I wound up having to explain
what I said above to the supervisor at the office, and I told him if
he didn't agree, I would be happy to discuss it with him and the 
Insurance board.  The adjuster wound up getting fired, and I got my
money.  It was the same deal - the adjuster immediately went on 
vacation.  Maybe this is a ploy to get you to agree immediately.

You might want go to your insurance company and let them fight it out
with AAA.


Tom Pickett 
tpickett@auspex.com or 74616.2237@compuserve.com
SHO  GOZE
Newsgroups: rec.autos
From: dbr2@cec2.wustl.edu (Dhruva Bollam Reddy)
Subject: Re: Stretch Hyundai
Organization: Washington University, St. Louis MO
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 01:26:46 GMT

I believe there's a company in the Dallas/Fort Worth area which specializes
in stretched Honda Civic sedans.
Newsgroups: rec.autos
From: kenny@osf.org (Kenneth Crudup)
Subject: Re: Last U.S. Made Corvette Slated for 1995
Organization: Open Software Foundation
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 21:17:57 GMT

In article <1992Dec15.113719.13044@bsu-ucs>
00bndaniels@leo.bsuvc.bsu.edu writes:

>The car is being councelled (sic) due to poor sales.  People I know buy cars
>for transportation.  Not just to let them set and collect dust.   

>Thanks for your time,
>B. Daniels		<- at least this time he spelled his own name right!

Next week, we work on spelling and line lengths, OK?

-- 
Kenny Crudup, Contractor, OSF DCE QA
OSF, 11 Cambridge Center, Cambridge, MA 02142	+1 617 621 7306
kenny@osf.osf.org			OSF has nothing to do with this post.
	  Religion: The longest-running gag ever played on Mankind.
From: rap@nnsgs50.tcom.stc.co.uk (Richard Porter)
Newsgroups: rec.autos
Subject: Re: Marcos??
Date: 18 Dec 1992 14:27:18 GMT
Organization: BNR Europe Limited
NNTP-Posting-Host: nnsgs50.lon40.nt.com

In article <1gq3dlINNkec@bnsgd245.bnr.co.uk> rap@nnsgs50.lon40.nt.com I wrote:

>All these models are
>available in closed (copue) and convertible (Spyder) versions.
Oops, coupe'

>Write to Marcos Sales Limited, West Wilts Industrial Estate, Westbury,
>Wiltshire, UK. I haven't got the post code or phone number with me but
>if I remember I'll post them tomorrow along with details of the Club
>Marcos representative in the US. If you do write to Marcos please
>mention my name!

Sorry, it should be:

Marcos Sales Limited,
153 West Wilts Trading Estate,
Westbury, Wiltshire.
BA13 4JN
United Kingdom

Tel. +44 373 864097 (voice) or 858052 (fax)
Speak to Jem Marsh or Chris Marsh

Club Marcos International US Rep.:
Stuart Chapman, 11642 Robinwood Blvd., Warren Mi 48093

>Richard Porter,
>Mini Marcos Owners Club
From: amh2@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (ALOIS M. HIMSL)
Newsgroups: rec.autos
Subject: RE: Flying speed traps
Date: 12 Dec 92 04:22:16 GMT
Organization: Lehigh University

The best way to speed and avoid tickets is to just be observant and pay
attention.  Some things you have to consider is that the police probably will
not be timing people from the air at night and during bad weather. I have
noticed that here in PA they only use this kind of enforcement on nice sunny
days, when the helicopters are very easy to spot anyway. So when driving in PA
or anywhere else, just take a quick gander in the sky. You will see them. As
far as radar traps are concerned don't drive fast if there are no cars in
front or behind you. If you want ot speed or have to speed use the other cars
and trucks on the road as shields for yourself. It works quite well. If,
however, you are driving at 4 AM just stay within the limit. I have only been
nailed once in my life and that was without a radar detector. I have learned
my lesson, but still feel that 70-75 is a nice cruising speed. Just be alert
and you will be OK. Also when driving in other states it is also helpful to
know what kind of marked and unmarked cars the police use. Here in PA the ugly
Chevy Caprice sticks out like a sore thumb.  They are very easy to spot.  The
bottom line is just keep your eyes open and stay alert.
Al Himsl
Lehigh University
From: jimf@centerline.com (Jim Frost)
Newsgroups: rec.autos
Subject: Re: Stolen Cars (once: Re: THE CLUB???? (Re: 48Hours (12/9)))
Date: 15 Dec 1992 16:08:08 GMT
Organization: CenterLine Software, Inc.
NNTP-Posting-Host: 140.239.3.202

cottle@b11.b11.ingr.com (Tim Cottle) writes:
>The local paper had a story in its Sunday edition from Mobile, AL, regarding
>an informal study done by a Mobile police officer who worked a lot of stolen
>car cases.  Most of the cars stolen in Mobile are stolen by teenagers, and are
>primarily used for joy riding; occasionally as get-away cars.

This may be typical in Mobile but I don't believe it's typical in a
lot of large cities.  In Boston we have both kinds(*) -- joy riders
and pros.  _The Boston Driver's Handbook_ (very humorous, and
remarkably accurate) has the following to say about cars prone to
theft by joy riders:

	If you were a fourteen-year-old car thief, you wouldn't steal
	just any car; you'd want to exhibit a certain amount of taste.
	So you'd look for a car with lots of chrome and glitter and
	enough power to chase a 747, like a high-powered late model
	American sports car.  You'd also want to sit in
	air-conditioned comfort (even in the winter) listening to your
	favority top-40 station on your victim's (hopefully) expensive
	stereo system.

That's not a bad description.  One thing to remember is that a joy
rider can typically be stopped by simple anti-theft devices such as
kill switches (*not* things like the Club which are obvious and can be
defeated by anyone in just a few seconds).  Anyway joy-riding thefts
have dropped in Boston over the years, possibly because of a general
population movement out of the core city.

The pros work differently, of course, and pros are who steal your
"average" cars day in and day out.  They typically steal cars that can
be reused for parts, which means the most popular cars over the last
two to seven years or so (that means that if you have a Honda you're a
prime target).  Nowadays in Boston pro thefts make up most stolen
cars.

Most other car-related thefts in this area are for items inside the
car, particularly expensive stereos or recently purchased items left
in the car.  I'm actually rather surprised that we don't hear a lot
about stolen car phones but I suppose they can't be resold.

jim frost
jimf@centerline.com

(*) Country *and* western :-)
Newsgroups: rec.autos
From: cka52397@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Slartibartfast)
Subject: Re: Is Japan being fair ? (1/2)
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 02:52:24 GMT

In article <1992Dec14.142954.29189@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com> c23st@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com (Spiros Triantafyllopoulos) writes:
>In article <1992Dec12.175048.15367@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> jnielsen@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (John F Nielsen) writes:
>>Is it wrong or unfair for Japan to support research and development?	
>>If there was something to invest government money in, research and
>>development would be the ticket.
>
>I agree. But R&D subsidies are one of the many things happening there
>starts thinking antitrust. A few examples have come forward, like the
>MCC in Texas or the USABC (advanced battery consortium) but by and large,
>they are the exception rather than the rule. 
>
>-- 
>Spiros Triantafyllopoulos                    c23st@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com

	I think that we can thank the ressurgeance (sp?) of the US chip 
industry on Sematech (is that the real name) the Industry consortium that
promoted outstanding quality and R&D and was subsidized by the GVT.  Maybe
we should be investing time & $$ in an industrial policy.  

	It would only put us on par with our rivals.
-- 
 Chintan Amin  The University of Illinois, Urbana Champaign  c-amin1@uiuc.edu
  "Public speaking is very easy!" <-- Quayle 10/88  ;-)
  "Unfortunately, the people of Louisiana are not racists" <-- Quayle, 10/12/90
NeXTMail Accepted  Go Illini *Holiday Bowl* Go Capitals Go Tarheels Go Cowboys
From: dbernard@clesun.Central.Sun.COM (Dave Bernard)
Newsgroups: rec.autos
Subject: Re: New car advice WANTED
Date: 11 Dec 92 19:47:21 GMT
Reply-To: dbernard@clesun.Central.Sun.COM
Organization: Sun Microsystems

In article 2506@merrimack.edu, moscaritolos@merrimack.edu () writes:
>I am out of college in the next year or so and I have been thinking about
>buying a new car....What I have been looking at are the new Jeep Wranglers,
>the new Pontiac Grand Am's, and the Buick Reatta's.  Could you guys tell me
>what you know about these babies...especially if someone owns one...
>
>Thanks...Steve M.


I have a '92 Wrangler... what is it you'd like to know?  Is it overpriced,
unreliable, problem-plagued, poorly-supported, poorly-appointed?  Yes.  Is it
a blast to drive, especially off-road?  Yes.

	Dave
Newsgroups: rec.autos
From: thomas@datamark.co.nz (Thomas Beagle)
Subject: Re: Emblems, names and meanings...
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 06:56:53 GMT
Organization: Datamark International Ltd.

In article <BzFuDM.n1A@news.cso.uiuc.edu> mchaffee@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Real Life?!?! HA!!) writes:

>In all, it appears the Europeans take things like the name badges more
>seriously, and are more constant than either the Japanese or the Americans.
>Wonder why.....

Well, Mitsubishi claim to have been using the three diamonds for a
long time. Am I the only one who likes the new Toyota logo? :-)

I think the other Japanese companies have been changing to 'graphic
badges' rather than 'name badges' because they are more versatile when
it comes to marketing and the like.

Badges and identity are obviously very important. I feel sorry for BMW
having to incorporate their traditional grill on all their cars - it
nearly turns the 850 into a joke!
-- 
    Thomas Beagle | thomas@datamark.co.nz           Work: 64 4 233 8186
Datamark Intl Ltd | thomas@cavebbs.welly.gen.nz     Home: 64 4 499 3832
 Technical Writer | Yes, I do have long ears, a black nose, and a tail.
Newsgroups: rec.autos
From: wesf@boi.hp.com (Wes Fujii)
Subject: Re: Garage Door opener. Rec. Needed
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 16:03:32 GMT
Distribution: rec
Organization: Hewlett-Packard / Boise, Idaho
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1.4 PL6]

Richard Holowczak (holowczk@rwja.umdnj.edu) wrote:
: I know some people talked about this a while back but, alas, the
: news server has gone and eaten them for good.  
: 
: Can anyone let me know what a good brand of garage door opener is?
: 
: I've seen some Stanley models down at the Home Depot for around $150.00.
: Are these any good and how difficult are they to install?
: 
: Also, are those automatic reverse sensors useful? We have several
: small kids in the area and I'd hate to see them mangled by the 
: garage door.

I think the net advise was that most liked their Genie, Chamberlain 
and Chamberlain OEM's (like Sears).  Stanley was the brand to AVOID.

All automatic door openers have reverse safety sensing although are
less effective when the door is *almost* closed due to mechanical
leverage in the door mechanisms.  You might want to install a set of
through-beam photo sensors on your system if you're really concerned.  

Wes Fujii
________________________________________________________________
      ___   ___ ___ 
     /  /  /  //  /
    /  /__/  //  /    A real motor is an Oldsmobile Rocket 455
   /  HURST //  /    "This is NOT the new generation of Olds"
  /  /  /  //  /_________
 /__/  /__//  //  _____  \
          /  //  /    /  /      Wes "BANZAI" Fujii
         /  //  /OLDS/  /          Boise, Idaho
        /  //  /____/  /      wesf@hpdmd48.boi.hp.com
       /__/ \_________/
From: qazi@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Aamir Hafeez Qazi)
Newsgroups: rec.autos
Subject: Olds Bravada
Date: 16 Dec 1992 05:30:32 GMT
Organization: Computing Services Division, University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
Distribution: na
NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.89.7.4
Originator: qazi@csd4.csd.uwm.edu


--If anyone cares, Olds just announced that it will discontinue production
  of the Bravada sport-utility vehicle at the end of the `93 model year.
  Source: USA Today.  Just more proof that every GM division can't produce
  every type of car to satisfy every customer.

--Aamir Qazi


-- 

Aamir Qazi
qazi@csd4.csd.uwm.edu
--Why should I care?  I'd rather watch drying paint.
Newsgroups: rec.autos
From: eliot@lanmola.engr.washington.edu (eliot)
Subject: Re: Four wheel drive Autos
Organization: clearer than blir
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 20:37:07 GMT

In article <hhelanto.724737417@vipunen.hut.fi> hhelanto@vipunen.hut.fi (Henri R Helanto) writes:
>you should go drive *the* quattro coupe some time.  it is 
>>a religious experience.
>
>	I wouldn't really say so. To me it was just another AWD, 2-door,
>	sporty car with average handling and fair performance. 
>	It corners neutrally (I suppose you mean Audi Quattro S2?
>	The old Quattro Coupe and Quattro S1's handle like s**t!!)

you should take my comments in a broader perspective.  i was referring
to the "old" quattro, yes, and am aware of its many flaws.  after all,
this is a 10 year old car.  anyway, this was the car that started the
whole performance 4wd revolution.  the "raw excitement" that i
referred to is not in comparison to the super-AWD cars that you lucky
europeans have; it is in comparison to all these quiet, refined luxury
coupes that are far too common around here.  the quattro occupies a
chapter in the history books.  it is far less well known or understood
here.  that adds to its specialness, i guess.

from the list of cars that you are quoting, you will see how deprived
enthusiasts are in the US..

>	Subary Legacy 200, SVX etc. are pretty much the

we have a 130 bhp legacy and a 160 bhp turbo legacy.  the svx is on
the brink of death.  the european legacy has far more power than the
one here.

>	Lancia Delta HF Integrale

not a single one of its many evolving models were ever imported.

>	Toyota Celica 'Carlos Sainz Edition' handles
>	like a Cadillac - it's not as comfortable but equally soft,

it's available but very rare.  

>	Sierra Cosworths 4x4 / Escort Cosworths oversteer a bit (feels

nope.

>	Nissan Sunny GT-R feels like a small car (because it _IS_

the only sunny (called sentra here) that people are excited with is
the fwd with VC model with a twin cam, normally aspirated 140 bhp 2.0
engine.  not quite a GTI-R.

>	a small car), Nissan Skyline handles great (4WS works!),

nope.

>	Dodge Stealth has the same feel as MB 4-matic (heavy and
>	terrible understeer)

yuck!  4000 pounds?  outrageous!

> Mitsubishi Galant VR-4 handles well

sold here briefly.  i think they've recently just pulled the plug on it.

>	For touring I would choose Subaru, Mitsubishi or Cosworth,
>	for rallying Integrale or Nissan, for track Cosworth or
>	Skyline. And for showing off, AUDI. I'm sorry to say that
>	but the car isn't quite as legendary as its name.

and i have said so myself.  but if you look at your list, the choices
here are extremely limited, which is why a 10 year old audi quattro
coupe would still make sense to a hard core enthusiast.


eliot
Newsgroups: rec.autos
From: cathy@cc.uow.edu.au (Cathy Nicastri)
Subject: Removing Tyre Rubber from Driveway
Organization: University Of Wollongong
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 92 02:12:52 GMT

Does anyone know how to remove tyre rubber from driveway


Thanks

Cathy@wampyr.uow.edu.au
From: sehat@iitinc.uucp (Sehat Sutardja)
Newsgroups: rec.autos
Subject: Re: HELP! Problem with Toyota Corolla
Date: 14 Dec 92 20:08:53 GMT
Organization: Integrated Information Tech.

From article <1992Dec14.150801.7497@bcrka451.bnr.ca>, by hemi@bcrkd12.bnr.ca (Hemi Thaker):
> 	I'm having a problem with my '86 Toyota Corolla SR-5.
> The first time the problem happened, I was driving at 120Km/hr
> when all of a sudden my engine died on me.  I still had electrical
> power, and could crank the engine, but it wouldn't start.  The
> engine did not sputter or cough when it died.
> 
> 	This problem has reoccured a few more times.  Every time,
> I have either been driving faster than 100Km/hr, or standing still.
> Again, after the engine dies, I can crank as much as I want, but the
> car won't start.  However, after 1 hour and 15 to 20 minutes
> later (yes, this exact), I can start the car, and it behaves as
> if nothing had happened.
> 
> 	As per Murphy's laws, this "feature" of my car is impossible
> to reproduce in front of or by the mechanic.  He had originally
> thought it was a faulty fuel pump, and replaced that, but the problem
> resurfaced two weeks later.
> 
> 	Got any advice for me?
> 
I had the same exact problem with my 84 SR5 (mine is carburated though). This
problem happened maybe about 10 times and finally it died for good while my
wife was driving it on the freeway. It turned out the Electronic Ignition 
module was shot. The dealer replaced it for free because Toyota had issued a
recall on that module.

-- 
Sehat Sutardja,

sehat@iit.com				| INTEGRATED INFORMATION TECHNOLOGY
					|
From: jslee@nrtc.nrtc.northrop.com (John Lee <jslee>)
Newsgroups: rec.autos
Subject: Re: THE CLUB???? (Re: 48Hours (12/9))
Date: 11 Dec 92 19:00:34 GMT
Reply-To: jslee@nrtc.nrtc.northrop.com (John Lee)

> hkk38381@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Arthur Kwok) writes:
>
>Did anyone watch the TV show 48Hours last night???
>In the show, they had a CLUB like lock installed in a car, and they invited
>2 ex-car thieves to demonstrate how to steal a car. In less than a minute,
>they cut the CLUB-like lock with a saw.  They didn't mention if it is
>THE CLUB or not. Is it very easy for the thieves to cut THE CLUB???
>I was considering to buy one.

I want to know how much of a kickback Capt Jack Claric gets for pushing
The Club while in uniform from some rinky-dink eastern small town PD.

His acting ability, I should add however, is improving. In his first spots
he was stiff and unrealistic, kind of a Floyd R. Turbo imitation (from
Johnny Carson).

The Club is useless.  By making it slightly more inconvenient to
steal a car in your absence, it now becomes easier for the thief to
wait for you to unhook all those spiffy goofy things like the Club
before taking your car from you.  The New Age term for this is
Carjacking.  So now you expose yourself to personal harm having the
car taken from you in your presence.  

What liability is there if someone used the Club as a weapon claiming
that by its name its secondary purpose is intended to be a blunt
striking instrument?  
JSLee
Newsgroups: rec.autos
From: dmunroe@vcd.hp.com (Dave Munroe)
Subject: Re: OLDsmobile name change
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 04:58:59 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard

Alan E. Asper writes:

>Although I doubt that Enzo had a daughter named 308GTB4 2+2, there was
>someone in his family named Dino.

Dino was his son.  The 308 GT4 was called a Dino when it first came out,
but in later years it was rebadged with the traditional Ferrari emblems.

-Dave

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
		"A Ferrari is a twelve-cylinder car"
							- Enzo Ferrari
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.autos
From: issa@cwis.unomaha.edu (Issa El-Hazin)
Subject: Re: News of '94 Accords?
Organization: University of Nebraska at Omaha
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 06:45:08 GMT

cka52397@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Slartibartfast) writes:

> There is a new Accord in '94 and Minivan based on the platform in '95,

And a sport-utility vechicle. The Accord is due next fall. Dual airbags
and a V-6 engine are expected. All are likely to be build in Honda's
plant in Marysville, Ohio.  


>-- 
> Chintan Amin  The University of Illinois, Urbana Champaign  c-amin1@uiuc.edu
>  "Public speaking is very easy!" <-- Quayle 10/88  ;-)
>  "Unfortunately, the people of Louisiana are not racists" <-- Quayle, 10/12/90
>NeXTMail Accepted  Go Illini *Holiday Bowl* Go Capitals Go Tarheels Go Cowboys 

Issa

From: leonglaw@hpsgm2.sgp.hp.com (Lawrence LEONG)
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 00:45:37 GMT
Subject: Re: Sales slime lies (was Re: Chevy truck doors)
Organization: HP Singapore
Newsgroups: rec.autos

In rec.autos, issa@cwis.unomaha.edu (Issa El-Hazin) writes:

| RZAA80@email.sps.mot.com (Jim Chott) writes:
|
| >In article <ByxHAn.2Aq@plato.ds.boeing.com>, sml@plato.ds.boeing.com
| >(Stuart Lewis) wrote:
|
| >{deleted details about Chevy trucks}
|
| I'm not sure what make of cars, but some nowadays use felcro (Yes, felcro) to
							^^^^^^

nit-pick:  velcro.

lawrence

Newsgroups: rec.autos
From: mchaffee@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Real Life?!?! HA!!)
Subject: Re: Honda Del Sol
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 02:23:23 GMT

darling@cellar.org (Thomas Darling) writes:

>dclayton@bnr.ca (Don Clayton) writes:

>In terms of styling, it really depends on whether you're looking forwards
>(Del Sol) or backwards (Miata).  The Del Sol makes reference to the Targa
>look but is very modern; the Miata is kind of a tribute to the British
>roadsters of yore (a good one at that, too).

Well, if the del Sol is the future of automobile styling, I guess I'm stuck
driving old cars.  The thing is butt-ugly!  Almost everybody I've asked about
this agrees with me; it's just not a good-looking car.  Usually Honda does a
good job of stylning their cars to be bland at the very worst; the del Sol is
distinctly unpleasant.

Besides, how can you compare a targa-topped car to a real roadster?  Well, the
Miata isn't a real roadster either; it doesn't have an SU fuel system, or a 
Lucas electrical system, or a tractor engine, or a live axle rear suspension
or.....

Progress.  Bleah.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael T. Chaffee        | mchaffee@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu  |  ______    
                                                       |  \    /   HATE
"I chased a rainbow down a one-way street.  Dead end." |   \  /  is not a
     - S. P. McCall                                    |    \/  FAMILY VALUE
----------------------------------------------------------------------------


Newsgroups: rec.autos