HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: u894776@bruny.cc.utas.edu.au (James McCoull)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: yet more on the AA chipset...
Date: 20 Aug 92 12:21:12 GMT
Organization: University of Tasmania, Australia.

mlelstv@specklec.mpifr-bonn.mpg.de (Michael van Elst) writes:

>In <u894776.714264458@bruny> u894776@bruny.cc.utas.edu.au (James McCoull) writes:
>>	This is because CBM never put a games BIOS in the amiga.
>>	They shot themselves in the foot.
>>	With AA they shoot themselves in the face.

>Having a games BIOS would be the worst thing to do.. It doubles the task
>for any hardware manufacturer.. it would be used (with all its disadvantages)
>by other programmers as well. And the result would be just to please game
>programmers to continue their egocentric programming style ?
>BTW, do you think that HD installable games on MS-DOS use the BIOS to access
>the HD ?

Does anyone who reads .advocacy understand how games programs are written?
Many come from UK, where the AtariST is chosen to be the initial platform for
development - the developers do not have time to convert their programs from
a lower level bios style system to AmigaOS, it makes no economic sense.
The programs of course break on new amigas for the lamest reasons - not
egocentric programming, but lack of adequate documentation - and sample code.
The games programmers are there to make games, not to talk politely to the OS.

IMHO it is easier for CBM to make the decision for them by putting in a BIOS
rather than trying to train 1000+ amigaos ignorants.

What would you prefer? games working on A3000 but without multitasking - or
game not working on A3000 at all.
Sure to have game on A3000 + multitasking is great... but it would be foolish
to expect that from all programmers.
From: al158305@academ01.mty.itesm.mx (Gustavo Cordova Avila)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: Amiga 4000/Atari Falcon
Date: 21 Aug 92 17:27:07 GMT

jerry@connection.prospect.com (Jerry Shekhel) writes:

>Here we go again.

yes, here we go again...

>DIG.  

Coming soon to an Amiga near you (Kickstart/WB 3)

>Resource tracking.  

???

>A graphics system that supports splines, 

huh?

>paths, 

What?

>non-rectangular clipping, 

So?? Like you can't do that here!

>2-D transformations, 

jeeezzz... c'mon, give me a break.

>Adobe scalable fonts, 

We already have CG font support.

>etc.  

we already have etc:

>Multithreading.  

HAR HAR HAR! Listen, he brags to us because os/2 has multitreading!

>Named pipes.  

How about the pipe: device?  Or fifo: , or ip: (I use ip: ) etc etc etc

>Queues.  

We can add those easily.

>Binary compatibility with DOS and Windows executables.

why the hell would we want that?!? We're precisely trying to escape it
and you bring it up. How silly can you get?


>  Want more?

nope, nothing more, thank you.


-Gus
--
Gustavo Cordova Avila		| Majoring in Electronics & Computer Sciences
al158305@academ01.mty.itesm.mx	| "...I came from the Desert!!" (Sonora)
al158305@[131.178.4.10]		| RangerElf @ IRC (usually in #amiga)
From: ekolar@kiwi.ucs.indiana.edu (Erik S. Kolar)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: Amiga 4000/Atari Falcon
Date: 14 Aug 92 22:07:28 GMT
Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington

Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: Amigas, IBMs, Macs, OSes, etc.
Summary: 
Expires: 
Followup-To: 
Distribution: 
Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington
Keywords: 

In article <mykes.0c3f@amiga0.SF-Bay.ORG> mykes@amiga0.SF-Bay.ORG (Mike Schwartz) writes:
>Anyone know a store that has Macs, PCs, and Amigas right next to eachother
>on display so the customer can judge for himself which to buy?  How about
>Macs and Amigas together?  Or Macs and PCs?

Yes, the local C= dealer, Digital Arts, has a Mac II for sure, and I think they
have a PC too.  They are very hip to the Amiga, more so than any other C=
dealer I know.  They have a couple A3000s (one is a UX) on display, a CDTV,
a 500, and a 2000.  Toasters are all over the display window, and a lot of
MIDI stuff too - they seem to be really pushing multimedia.  As far as I can
tell, it is a family owned business, almost 2 years old, I think.  They would
get my vote as a "model" Amiga dealer.  Sadly, though, you won't find an Amiga
anywhere at IU except for the Toaster workstation in the Telecom dept. (as far
as I can tell).  Color Macs (IIsi, etc.) and PS/2s are all over the place in
the many public sites (easily >1000 of each machine here).  We also have the
NeXT, Sun, and Atari platforms, machines number <50 of each type, but they are
mainly for CS students or the curious.  IU is a major university, there are 
over 35,000 students.  There was a demonstration of a A3000UX last year, but
I don't know if it prompted any purchase decisions - we'll see when I arrive
later next week.
-- 
-=+> Erik Scott Kolar                                      ,_,             <+=-
-=+> Internet:  ekolar@kiwi.ucs.indiana.edu               /oo \  _.-.      <+=-
-=+> Bitnet:  ekolar@iubacs                               <>__| /- O O     <+=-
-=+> DISCLAIMER:  The opinions expressed are my own.      |  U|    \|      <+=-
-=+> I do not speak for Indiana University or UCS.     "What is it, man?"  <+=-
From: skip@tacky.cs.olemiss.edu (Skip Sauls)
Subject: Re: Atari Falcon Discount Supermachine  Re: Sydnes is gone?!!
Organization: University of Mississippi, Dept. of Computer Science
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 13:12:25 GMT

In article <1992Aug20.042024.21910@cgrg.ohio-state.edu> derek@cgrg.ohio-state.edu (Dariusz Bolski) writes:
>In article <1992Aug19.163556.14701@ra.msstate.edu> skip@tacky.cs.olemiss.edu (Skip Sauls) writes:
>>As for A3000s without hard-drives, probably not a great idea.  But given
>>the prices of large IDE drives, I'd like to be able to purchase an A3400
>>(or whatever they call it) sans hard-drive.  An A3400 without hard-drive
>>and CPU card could be a cheap way for users to get an AA machine and would
>>leave room for the third-party folks to supply CPU boards, hard-drives, etc.
>
>Commodore should at least give the possibility to buy A3000 without HD.
>When we were trying to buy A3000s for our new Amiga Lab we wanted A3000s with
>Ethernet instead of HD. They wouldn't let us. Thus we had to reduce the
>number of Amigas we could buy (fixed amount of money).
>HDs will be mostly useless (we relied on a fileserver) but we will not be
>able to educate as many new students on Amigas as we wanted.
>All in all, fewer people will get to know Amiga :-(

Agreed.  The bundled systems are great for some folks, but C= should let
the dealer do the bundling to make the prices more competitive.  I wish
that C= would offer an A3000 with no HD and a socketed EC030.  Let the
dealer add the HD, 881/882, true 030, monitor, RAM, etc.  C= could 
simplify their production lines, the price for a bare system would be
lower, and the third-party companies could benefit by supplying the rest
of the components.  Apple has taken this approach somewhat and seems to
be doing well with it.

>Dariusz Bolski


Skip Sauls
skip@tacky.cs.olemiss.edu
From: cpca@marlin.jcu.edu.au (Colin Adams)
Subject: Re: Why the A600? Some ZEN marketing VooDoo?
Organization: James Cook University
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 92 11:31:02 GMT

In article <1992Aug14.154043.524@seas.gwu.edu> gerald@seas.gwu.edu (Gerald G. Washington) writes:
>cpca@marlin.jcu.edu.au (Colin Adams) writes:
>>>What do you think? Why did C= release the A600?
>>
>>Low cost.  [...]
>
>Yeah, and it also keeps developers making ECS software instead of AA.

I don't really think so.  It is extremely easy to make your software
work with both chipsets.  Since 2.0 well written applications have
had to work with different screen types, and good programs should
work with the AA chipset.   It isn't hard to cater for the increased
palette etc. on machines with such features available.  As C= move
to RTG, all applications have to deal with such issues.

>-- Gerald

-- 
Colin Adams       Honours Student - James Cook University of North Queensland
  "And if I seem a little strange, well that's because I am." - The Smiths
From: das9674@usl.edu (Stephenson Daniel A)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: Crime & Death Penalty Re: Perot ? (the thread that won't die)
Date: 21 Aug 92 20:27:46 GMT
Organization: University of Southwestern Louisiana

In article <1992Aug21.194648.13142@uwm.edu> gblock@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Gregory R Block) writes:
>dusek@rtsg.mot.com (James Dusek) writes:
>: 	NO NO NO!!! We cannot kill an innocent post just
>: becuase it offends someone! Just think of the poor posts
>: offsprings, its parent. How would they feel? It's moraly
>: wrong to let a post die, it has every right to life.
>
>If he wanted it dead, he should have had an abortion while still
>editing.  Perfectly moral, perfectly legal.  After all, a post isn't a
>post until you save the text and hit "p".

Or :wq, s , depending on the case.

>
>Greg
>
>--
>(: (: (: (: Have you overdosed on smileys today?  Why NOT!?! :) :) :) :) :)
>(: "...and here's Clinton giving the correct spelling of bong-resin..."  :)
>(:	gblock@csd4.csd.uwm.edu			Gregory R. Block         :)
>(: (: (: (: (: (: (: (: (: (: (: (: (:) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)


-- 
Dan Stephenson das9674@usl.edu 
"Is it that Blake has a genius for leadership, or merely that *you* have a 
 genius for being led?" -Avon, from Blakes 7                           
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: pss1@kepler.unh.edu (Paul S Secinaro)
Subject: Re:    I am giving up on the Amiga
Organization: University of New Hampshire  -  Durham, NH
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 12:21:43 GMT

In article <1992Aug16.094148.3510@desire.wright.edu> fheitkamp@desire.wright.edu writes:

>	From what I've read on the standard and there are evidently two:
>	PCI (from Intel) and I don't have the name of other one handy.

It's the VESA VL-bus (VESA stands for Video Electronics Standards
Association, or something like that)

>	PCI sounds like it can be interpreted by the maker several ways,
>	each manufacturers' implementation may not be cross compatible.

I think PCI defines signals and protocols, but they haven't defined a
standard expansion connector yet (whereas VL-bus has).  As I
understand it, PCI was intended more for embedded chips, and wasn't
originally designed as an expansion bus that you could actually plug
things in to.

>       The
>	other one is more limited and probably has more chance of wide
>	compatibility.  BTW I'm definitely no Dave H., I just got that
>	message from the article.
>

Supposedly, Intel and VESA are trying to work PCI and VL-bus into one
standard, but I'm not sure of the details.

Paul


-- 
Niven's Law #14:   There exist minds that think as well as you do, but
                   differently.
Niven's Corollary: The gene-tampered turkey you're talking to isn't
                   necessarily one of them.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: pss1@kepler.unh.edu (Paul S Secinaro)
Subject: Re: Amiga 4000/Atari Falcon
Organization: University of New Hampshire  -  Durham, NH
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 21:18:46 GMT

In article <1992Aug18.164701.17958@ctr.columbia.edu> jerry@connection.prospect.com (Jerry Shekhel) writes:
>
>I was actually talking about the PC UNIX version of X11, not a DOS-based
>X server.  For PC UNIX, there is a fantastic version of X11.5 on the
>Internet, called X386 1.2E.  Excellent support for most SVGA cards, including
>special ET4000 speedups.  SVR4 binaries are available.
                           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

There are also binaries for Linux 0.9x and 386BSD 0.1, though I
wouldn't recommend these as end user systems.  Still too unstable.
You can probably also scrape up binaries for other popular Unices like
Esix and ISC.

Paul

-- 
Niven's Law #14:   There exist minds that think as well as you do, but
                   differently.
Niven's Corollary: The gene-tampered turkey you're talking to isn't
                   necessarily one of them.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: leavitt@cheshire.oxy.edu (Thomas VanNess Leavitt)
Subject: Re: ** NEW AMIGAS **
Organization: Occidental College, Los Angeles, CA 90041 USA.
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1992 21:31:41 GMT

In article <1992Aug21.004439.24674@news.iastate.edu> barrett@iastate.edu (Marc N Barrett) writes:
>In article <u894776.714318756@bruny> u894776@bruny.cc.utas.edu.au (Dream On) writes:
>>[I heard these rumours on the net - read at own peril]
>>
>>A600	68000+ECS+KS3.0		$199 US
>>A800	68020+AA+KS3.0		$399 US
>>A1000jr	68020+AA+KS3.0+HD	$650 US
>>A3400	68030+AA+KS3.0+HD	???? US
>
>   Wishful thinking, IMO.  Consider that Commodore still has not lowered the
>price on the cheapest of the A3000 systems (the A3000/16-40) to below $1500
                                             ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
                              no longer in production
                              price with 1960 $1889
                              wish CBM would sell w/o hd or monitor.

Would like a $1200 3000...

Maybe reason for 3000/16-40 phase out is intro of 3400?

 


>yet, even though the production and development costs of the ECS have been
>long since paid for.  I have no inside information on the prices of the new
>systems, but I personally think the initial list prices on the new systems 
>will be a bit on the high side, so as to more quickly pay development costs
>of the new systems and the AA chipset.  Remember that the AA chipset required
>the construction of a whole new fabrication facility, for the first time in
>Commodore's history -- even the A1000 did not require that a new silicon 
>fabrication facility be built.  So the sunk costs on the AA chipset (costs
>already incurred) will be higher than for any Amiga ever designed previously,
>the A1000 included.
>
>>Any ideas on the correctness of this information?
>>Obviously from the leaked specs on AA, its not that great!  But at these
>>prices who would complain!
>
>   Commodore is keeping the prices of the new systems pretty tightly held, 
>so I would take any rumors before their release with a big grain of salt.
>
>---
>| Marc Barrett -MB-  |  email: barrett@iastate.edu
>--------------------------------------------------
>   Coming soon to a theatre near you: "Honey, I Shrunk the Sales!", 
>   starring George Burns as Irving Gould.
>
>


Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: barrett@iastate.edu (Marc N Barrett)
Subject: Re: Amiga 4000/Atari Falcon
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, IA
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 04:17:28 GMT

In article <34248@cbmvax.commodore.com> daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) writes:
>>The US remains the center of the world's electronics industry.  Being in the
>>US gives Commodore's designers better access to companies like Motorola.  It
>>therefore makes sense to use the US as their design center, which it is at
>>the moment, even for machines sold in Europe only.
>
>That's very true.  Not only that, but there's very little chance that any
>significant number of engineers would be willing to move to Europe or Hong
>Kong.  You might figure that engineers are disposable items if you're building
>MS-DOS systems and Intel or C&T or whoever does most of the design work and
>zillions of BIOS hackers can be had for the tiny bit of software work necessary.
>C= couldn't possibly take that attitude.  Apple wouldn't even dare it -- while
>they're moving manufacturing to Colorado, they're still building up their
>California engineering buildings because they know most of their engineers
>wouldn't make the trip to Colorado.

   Unfortunately, Commodore has taken that attitude in the past, in particular
when the Los Gatos facility was closed.  I think everybody here wishes that
Commodore had not closed that facility, and had simply let Amiga development
continue primarily at Los Gotos and leave the West Chester facility for
developments not directly related to the AmigaOS or custom chips.

>
>>No, the Amiga is the only future Commodore have.
>
>I'm not sure they always did, but today management certainly believes that.  
>No question.  I picked up on back at the January '85 CES show when I first got 
>to play around with an Amiga.

   I wish that showed in the amounts of mney that Commodore is investing in
the future of the Amiga.  

>Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Amiga 3000) "The Crew That Never Rests"
>   {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh      BIX: hazy
>	"Work like a horse, drink like a fish"	- Psychefunkapus

---
| Marc Barrett -MB-  |  email: barrett@iastate.edu
--------------------------------------------------
     "Beware the ides of September..."
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: ahansfor@coal.wpi.edu (Andrew L. Hansford)
Subject: Re: 020 vs 030
Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute, Worcester, MA 01609-2280
	<1992Aug18.235421.22662@cheshire.oxy.edu>
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 19:01:27 GMT

>>>>> On 18 Aug 92 23:54:21 GMT, leavitt@cheshire.oxy.edu (Thomas VanNess Leavitt) said:

leavitt> EC030 costs $5 more than '020... that points up one major
leavitt> advantage... as long as the CPU is socketed, the machine is
leavitt> upgradeable at a later point.

leavitt> Thom

leavitt> What performance comparison of an EC040 vs. an '030?

leavitt> Thom

I believe the integer performance is increased.  That is the EC040 is about the
same as the 040 if no floating-point or MMU functions are needed. So
you get the six stage integer pipeline of the 040.

How the bus interface of the EC040 compares to the 040 I'm not sure.
I've heard that it is different enough to cause some concern but
really couldn't say.  EC is typically meant for embedded controllers
and integer only operation.  For the EC030 the MMU was eliminated,
for the EC040 the FPU and the both MMUs were eliminated.  

One problem is that the coprocessor interface that is in the EC030 and
030 is absent from the 040 and EC040.  Since the MMU and FPU were
built into the 040, no coprocessor interface seemed necessary.
(Someone correct me if I'm wrong on this) 

-- Andrew Hansford
   ahansfor@wpi.wpi.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: jerry@connection.prospect.com (Jerry Shekhel)
Subject: Re: Amiga 4000/Atari Falcon
Organization: Molecular Simulations, Inc.
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 14:36:04 GMT
X-Posted-From: connection.prospect.com
X-Posted-Through: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

addison@pollux.usc.edu (Richard Addison) writes:
>>
>>Here we go again.  DIG.  Resource tracking.  A graphics system that supports
>>splines, paths, non-rectangular clipping, 2-D transformations, Adobe scalable
>>fonts, etc.
>
>This sounds like PostScript.
>

Well, the OS/2 graphics library calls can be used on any graphics device (DIG)
including screens, printers, and whatever else you have drivers for.

>>
>>Binary compatibility with DOS and Windows executables.
>>
>Some might consider this to be a disadvantage. :-)
>

Nevertheless, it's a feature that is missing from AmigaDOS.

>>
>>Want more?
>
>Yeah.  How about a standard script language that developers could rely on
>being on all machines with OS/2?  The existing command line interface seems
>to be mostly a rehash of MS-DOS's.
>

Did I forget to mention IBM REXX/2?  It's in there!

>
>--Richard
>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: aa399@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Len Stys)
Subject: Re: Why the A600? Some ZEN marketing VooDoo?
Reply-To: aa399@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Len Stys)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 92 00:58:27 GMT


In a previous article, iank@microsoft.com (Ian Kennedy) says:

>Why the A600 now? All indications point to a release of new
>video chips (and maybe audio) by the end of the year. Perhaps
>as early as September, but I think not as I expect C= to
>release just more re-hashed old technology at that show.
>
>Again, why would they release this old-technology low end machine
>when they seem on the verge of releasing new technology. Do they
>think developers will code two versions of their products, one
>for the old A600 and one for the new AA systems? For applications,
>developers could release a dual-mode product that supports both
>old and new video just like they support a variety of video options
>now (DCTV, DMI...) but not the ever-volitile game market where low
>cost and speed of developmetn is stressed. Why release a game that
>only a few peopl can play. Only the "large" game developers could do
>this.
>
>You would think that C= would wait and release a whole bunch of
>machines low end and high end, all with the new chips and encourage
>developers to write for them while providing currrent users some
>sort of fiscally sound upgrade options.
>
>What do you think? Why did C= release the A600?
>-- 
>/* IanK@Microsoft.com		*/
>/* I want my 32bit chip set	*/
>
>


I keep telling you why.

Commodore did not expect Atari to release the Falcon so soon.

They figured they would release the A600 now, the other new Amigas
in the second half of next year and everything would be fine.

I'd even go as far to say that Commodore thought Atari would be
out of business by now.

You keep reading posts from Commodore employees for the last few
months stating that Atari probably isn't releasing anything that
will give Commodore problems.  They have underestimated their
competition.

Now, Commodore has speeded up getting their new computers out mainly
because Commodore users are complaining, the newspaper article,
and Atari's Falcon.

I think we will see these new computers in the beginning of the year.

Len

-- 
 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: das9674@usl.edu (Stephenson Daniel A)
Subject: Re: Sim Earth (was Re: Cheer Up)
Organization: University of Southwestern Louisiana
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1992 01:34:51 GMT

In article <1992Aug15.204927.25357@maccs.dcss.mcmaster.ca> rickan@maccs.dcss.mcmaster.ca (Mark Rickan) writes:
>In article <1992Aug15.030822.12110@usl.edu> das9674@usl.edu (Stephenson Daniel A) writes:
>
>>LAST TIME: Are you prepared to compare the Amiga SimEarth and the Windows 3.1
>>SimEarth?
>
>Sure. What do you want to know?
>

How are the graphics compared (using 640X480 VGA in Windows)?  Are any
of the features different?
Thanks-

>Mark
>
>-- 
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> = Mark Rickan                         ...!uunet!utai!utgpu!maccs!rickan = 
> = DCSS, McMaster University               rickan@maccs.dcss.mcmaster.ca = 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- 


--
*Dan Stephenson   das9674@usl.edu 
*"It reminds me of something Cally said. 'He who trusts cannot be
*betrayed, only mistaken.' It was a saying of her people.... Cally is
*dead. So are most of her people." -Avon, from _Rescue_ (Blakes 7)