From: cramer@optilink.COM (Clayton Cramer)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: No Wise Man here (Re: *Any* kind of r.a.b split, or at least a *serious* discussion)
Date: 29 Dec 92 00:28:10 GMT
Organization: Optilink Corporation, Petaluma, CA

In article <1992Dec25.173805.6739@spdcc.com>, dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer) writes:
> In article <1992Dec25.091537.28480@nevada.edu> wwhitman@nevada.edu (MICHAEL WISE) writes:
> >I don't feel I was in error when I characterized Stein as a fat, lazy 
> >lesbian with a serious grudge against the more successful Hemingway.[...]
> >That she was fat, that she was a lesbian, is hardly in dispute;[...]
> >I consider these to be facts, and on a literary subject.
> 
> Snort.  Goodness, why didn't you go all the way and say she was a
> "fat, lazy, Jewish lesbian..." or a "fat, lazy Jew"?  That she was
> fat, lazy or Jewish is hardly in dispute, right? 
> 
> Listen, pal: if you say that someone is a "fat, lazy X", it is generally
> assumed that "fat", "lazy" and "X" are each of them insults, and you don't
> get to weasel out of this by denying that this was your intention, unless
> you are a politician, which I guess most petit academics are.  I don't
> think that people would feel comfortable reading a line like "fat, lazy Jew"
> in any kind of post on r.a.b which pretends to be something other than
> hate speech, and I invite those who glossed over your own delicate phrase
> to ask themselves what the difference is here.  I also don't know why people
> -- 
> Steve Dyer

The analogy that Mr. Dyer seeks to draw here is that "Jew" and "lesbian"
are somehow comparable terms.  They are not.  A better analogy would be
"alcoholic" and "lesbian."  Both are, whether the result of genetics or
post-birth damage, choices that a person makes.  In much the same way,
I have a genetic tendency towards being overweight, but it is my choice
whether I choose to stuff my face and look like a boysenberry to the
detriment of my health, or exercise some self-restraint on my eating
habits.

Both alcoholism and lesbianism are important traits to know about if we 
wish to understand a writer's mindset and ideas.  I suppose that, for 
some types of writing, a writer's religious tradition might also be 
appropriate to remark upon as well.  (I would, however, be quite
skeptical of the appropriateness of the remark if it were put in such
a derogatory form as "dirty lazy Jew.")

Tell me, Mr. Dyer, if a writer had written a book that purported
that men sodomizing eight year old boys was shown to make the boys
happy, healthy, well-adjusted, and successful, would you consider it
"hate speech" to accurately describe the writer as a homosexual?  Might
it have some significance in assessing that writer's objectivity?

Note: not all homosexuals believe in sodomizing little boys, but
Mr. Dyer knows full well that there are plenty of homosexuals who
don't have a problem with it.  Mr. Dyer had the misfortune to suggest
in soc.motss that there was something a little sleazy about NAMBLA's 
interest in the location of little boys, and was flamed to a crisp
for insulting NAMBLA.
-- 
Clayton E. Cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer  My opinions, all mine!
C++ is to C, as lung cancer is to lung.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books