From: "micky wong" <micky.wong@canrem.com>
Subject: chinese manifest destiny
Reply-To: "micky wong" <micky.wong@canrem.com>
Organization: Canada Remote Systems
Distribution: soc
Date: 30 Dec 92 07:41:59 EST

In Article: <1hikkkINNrlt@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>
   Subject: Chinese Manifest Destiny
      From: jxl43@po.CWRU.Edu (Jianfeng Li) writes:


>In a previous article, Richard_Robb@mindlink.bc.ca
>(Richard Robb) says:

>>Jianfeng Li writes:
>>
>>> To China, being the super power for over 15 centuries(from -300 to
>>> +1,200),chinese enjoied a far more advanced society than the rest
>>> of the world.
>>
>>"Super power"?  Nice dream.  China, throughout its history, has never been
>>more than a regional power at best, and it has barely been able to control
>>even the territory it now claims as its own.  China has had extremely little
>>political or military power over people outside its own borders - hardly a
>>"super power."

>
>Dear Richard,
>Actually I have a even better picture about the past of China. Since Sir
>Needham of England believe in that chinese had the lead from -300 to
>1200,I took the data from him. I hoped more people would be convinced.
>Unfortunately you are not.

Joseph Needham is a remarkable scholar who spent his lifetime to study
the history of Chinese Science and technology, but what he said about
the Chinese lead in technology during that period does not equate to
"super power".
One may ask, what will happen, if Alexander the Greek(356-323BC) or
Caesar's Roman legions(100-44BC) had a chance to meet their counterpart
in China, who will be the winner?  :-)

However, I'm amused by your complete trust in Joseph Needham's, an
Englishman's words, in sharp contrast to Beijing's distrust and anger
towards another Englishman Mr Chris Patten... :-)

FYI, between 300 BC - 1200 AD, China went through more than 10 different
dynasties, numerous emperors, it did enjoy periods of prosperity during
some of the Tang dynasty, and later some of the Han dynasty, but at other
times, China was mostly in war, among themselves, or fighting "barbarian"
neighbours. During those wars, China was not always the winner.

>I do agree on one fact with you. That is we chinese were not aggressive
>on international affair. We used to build wall( the great wall) to
>protect ourself.We have no intention to steal/take other people's
>fortune.

I don't know which Ah-Q invented this above rhetoric, would you call
Qin-Shihuang, who had defeated and conquered the other six warring
kingdoms, who had also started and built most of the Great Wall during his
reign, as someone who was not aggressive?
Who had no intention to steal/take other people's fortune?  :-)

For the Han Chinese, if we really are as nice as you have indicated, can
you explain, why most China's minority races are today living in harsh
habitat? Many of them are living in the rugged mountainous regions? :-)

To say the least, I don't think that many Tibetans in exile will agree
your above view.   :-)

>We call our countary the center because our ancestor believe we
>were the one which had been civilized. Our ancestor hoped that their
>behavior would affect the rest of the world,in return all races would
>have a happy life. Of course that was a dream, even our ancestor had
>never realized it to themself fully. But they did have such a dream.

Look at some posts from some of our compatriots, with some very uncivilized
behavior,such as paying regards to other netters mothers... etc...
(is it an indication that the people's behavior are the reflection of the
behaviors of the government?), Here is work for those who study social
psychology.  :-)
I would say, that today's Chinese have a lot to learn from the rest of
the world.

I think it was Confucius who had said: "Li3 Shi1 Er2 Qiu2 Yu1 Ye3"
(When the code of conduct is lost, we need to learn from foreigners)
Only if we had listened to our wise ancestors....

Lines deleted for brevity.

>After more than 500 years of struggling in humiliation, it seems
>history will experience another turning point.

FYI, up until 1800 AD, China was still a formidable power, by any standards
then. The true humiliation to China did not begin until Opium War, which
was in 1840.

>During the past little more ten years ,we chinese quadrupled our GNP.
>Take a conservative point of view(from the west world), we will have
>another fourfold quantum leap before 2000. Within 30 years,our total
>economic power will be about the same to the rest of the world.

Wonder why you are so readily agreeable with the conservative view
from the western world? :-)

The sad reality is, after China had quadrupled the GNP after 10 years
of miraculous economic reform, China still need international charity
for the education of China's next generation.

And worse, the latest news about seven thousand teachers in Sichuan,
who had not been paid for seven months, and the money was misused by
some CCP cadres.... If those corrupted CCP officials dare to misuse these
teacher's salary, what else they would not dare do?

Chinese Government has left the responsibility of Higher University
Education to the "foreign investment"!

This is shamefully irresponsible for the Chinese government, because
anyone with common sense understands, to provide university Education
is a very expensive yet mandatory undertake for nation building,
there are no profit can be expected.

Where to find these many foreign suckers to fund the great needs of
China's universities? As long as CCP allows those corrupted officials
to rob the fruits of economic reform, there is no hope to reform China's
education system, which is in dire crisis!


>People can label the above prediction as my dream( include some of
>the leading figures from E.C., U.S.). And if China does turn the
>prediction(good will of those respectful western economicists)

Most progress did start from dreams, no one is labeling you for anything,
and you need not to quote westerners to support your own view, otherwise
there could be more numerous westerner who do not share your view.
If you really believe those "leading figures from E.C., U.S.", "those
good will from respectable westerners", you need to read the articles in
the latest issue of "The Economist"... It had just presented another view
regarding China's economic growth.

>into reality, there is one thing which I think I can promise to the
>rest of the world on behalf of my countary men,

I don't think that you are in position to make promise for anything,
On behalf of the Chinese people ? Did you ask the Chinese people with
some kind of referendum?

We had enough trouble with DXP's promises of "One Nation, Two System"
about HongKong, if Deng's promise have so far failed to show any
promising future, what make's your promise will be better than his? :-|

>we will not force anyone to do anything against their will.
>However if anyone dare to try to knock our door with whatever guns
>again(like starting from about 1700,the western world did to accumulate
>the funtune),they had better think it more than twice.

The CCP did use Tank and Machine guns to force CCP's will against the
wills of all those tens of million's Chinese people who went to the
streets in the Spring of 1989.....   :-|

You are forgetting that no one had tried to knock China's door with
anything for the past 40+ years, the only exception may be CCP's dear
brother North Vietnam.....

I thought today's China welcomed anyone to knock her door with money. :-)

Your date is wrong again... at 1700 AD, China was a very strong military
and economic power.
1697: Outer Mongolia became part of China,
1720: Qing's army suppressed a rebellion in Tibet.
1723: Qing's army conquered QingHai
1760: Qing's army conquered Southern part of Tian Shan(East Turkistan),
1787: Qing's army invaded Vietnam.
1803: Qing appointed King of Vietnam.

For any nation which has a bad memory about it's own history, or
lacks the will to face it's unpleasant past with honesty;
it's future outlook can be dubious.


Lines deleted for brevity.



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