HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes)
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Reply-To: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov
Organization: Jet Propulsion Lab - Pasadena, CA
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 23:32:46 GMT

barrett@daisy.ee.und.ac.za (Alan P Barrett) writes:
>Whatever.  My point still stands:  Your claim that they care about keeping
>the old name contradicts your claim that they don't care about the name.

Mish mash my points all you want. I've said it already. "They care
about the name but they don't care about the politics of news.groups. 
NOW some care about the politics of news.groups, but it's not because
they want to."

>Hmm.  I thought that your were claiming to be working on their behalf.  If
>so, how can you do so without knowledge of their arguments?  

I know their arguments. I was suggesting that perhaps you go to the source
of them, rather than to take my word for it (which most people don't do 
anyway). 

>> Here we disagree. Letter, yes. Spirit, no.
>Perhaps you could explain exactly what part of the spirit of the
>guidelines has allegedly been broken, and in what way it has been broken?
>Is it the part about giving notice to the affected groups?

Yes. The affected group was not given explicit and clear notice that their
group name would be changed. 

>I see that you chose to ignore some of the points that I thought were
>important:

Yup. I didn't know you thought them important. See how people differ?

>>> You have been saying that folk in rec.music.synth are harmed [...]
>>> It seems to me that you have not provided a good explanation of
>>> exactly *how* they would be harmed.

We've been over this before. Go back over the old posts. 

>>> You say that the vote did not reflect the wishes of the affected people.
>>> I claim that the entire net is affected by every vote, because every vote
>>> affects the namespace that we all share.  The entire net was invited to
>>> vote, and the vote reflects the wishes of the entire net.

I don't buy this on philosophical grounds. That's all I'll say on the matter,
otherwise we are both going to disagree. 
-- 
Dave Hayes - Network & Communications Engineering - JPL / NASA - Pasadena CA
dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov       dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov         ...usc!elroy!dxh

                      A poor man shames us all.
Xref: sparky news.groups:22477 news.admin.misc:373 misc.kids:28820 soc.roots:7715
From: pamela@sscux1.ssc.gov (pamela gurd)
Newsgroups: news.groups,news.admin.misc,alt.adoption,misc.kids,soc.roots
Subject: Re: RFD/CFD: soc.adoption
Keywords: adoption
Date: 19 Nov 92 21:01:02 GMT
Organization: Superconducting Super Collider Laboratory


Yes - please create soc.adoption so that more sites can carry it.

	Pam.
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: huggins@quip.eecs.umich.edu (Jim Huggins)
Subject: Re: A new posting for voters
Organization: University of Michigan EECS Dept., Ann Arbor, MI
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1992 02:09:55 GMT

In article <84080@ut-emx.uucp> andy@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Andrew Hackard) writes:
|huggins@quip.eecs.umich.edu (Jim Huggins) writes:
|>Anyone interested in working on a "How to Participate in Newsgroup
|>Creations and Renamings" document?  I don't know that I've got
|>the time to manage the effort, but I'd be willing to help.
|>I think it could be something to be added to the news.announce.newusers
|>postings.

As of right now, I'm holding back on this proposal, since someone else
(apparently with more time than I) is looking at all the relevant
Usenet documentation with the aim of seeing if a new document or
clarification of old documents can work.  Most everyone
who contacted me is working on that too, so I don't see any reason
to duplicate effort.

(Besides, I'm lazy.)

We return you to your regularly scheduled flamewar, already in progress.
-- 
Jim Huggins, Univ. of Michigan                          huggins@eecs.umich.edu
"You cannot pray to a personal computer no matter how user-friendly it is."
                                                          -- W. Bingham Hunter
From: cjones@dbaccess.com (Carl Jones)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: rec.sport.soccer.referee
Date: 18 Nov 92 16:43:30 GMT
Organization: Cross Access Corp., Santa Clara, CA
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4

I have seen no discussion here.
What discussion has been done, 
and that has mostly been YES!, YES!, YES!
has been done in rec.sport.soccer
which is where the people "are" who care
about this group.
I, too, am new at this newsgroup creation
thing, and have not followed such discussions.
So what are the issues, other than that 
enough people would like the forum created
for their use?
Carl Jones
-- 
Carl Jones                        INTERNET: cjones@dbaccess.com
c/o CROSS ACCESS CORPORATION      UUCP: {uunet,sgiblab}!troi!cjones
2900 Gordon Avenue, Suite 100     FAX: (408) 735-0328
Santa Clara, CA 95051             TEL: (408) 735-7545
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes)
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Reply-To: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov
Organization: Jet Propulsion Lab - Pasadena, CA
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 08:21:23 GMT

barrett@daisy.ee.und.ac.za (Alan P Barrett) writes:
>> I know their arguments. I was suggesting that perhaps you go to the source
>> of them, rather than to take my word for it (which most people don't do 
>> anyway). 
>You know their arguments?  Then why can you not explain them?

Because it does no good to anymore. 

>You want me to go to the source?  But (elsewhere) you have refused to
>identify the people who have allegedly left the group as a direct result
>of the name change.

Yup. I will not reveal email addresses unless asked. (Jrossi is the only
one so far that has done so) If I had more reason to trust that they
will not be similarly harassed as I have I might have revealed some of
them. Right now, there are 35 support messages, 16 counter-support messages,
and 2 threats sitting in my folders.
-- 
Dave Hayes - Network & Communications Engineering - JPL / NASA - Pasadena CA
dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov       dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov         ...usc!elroy!dxh

A person was frighteningly ugly. Once he was asked how could he go on
living with such a terrible face. "Why should I be unhappy?", answered
the man. "I never see my own face; let others worry."
From: stanley@skyking.OCE.ORST.EDU (John Stanley)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Date: 20 Nov 92 05:57:28 GMT
Article-I.D.: talon.1ehuo8INNg04
Organization: Oregon State University, College of Oceanography
NNTP-Posting-Host: skyking.oce.orst.edu

In article <1992Nov15.123502.11663@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov writes:
>So just why IS anyone paying attention to me? Hmm? :-)

Good question. Maybe they are hoping in vain that you might listen to
reason and stop whining about a result you didn't like.

>I'm not here to force you to listen to me. If you don't think I have anything
>to say, then don't listen. 8)

Which is it Dave? With one face you claim we aren't listening to you,
then with the other you tell us to stop listening.
From: randall-joshua@yale.edu (Joshua Randall)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RF(Informal)D: Standard RFD/CFV Format
Date: 16 Nov 1992 01:27:16 -0500
Organization: Yale University Science & Engineering UNIX(tm), New Haven, CT 06520-2158
NNTP-Posting-Host: minerva.cis.yale.edu
Keywords: RFD CFV formats guidelines votes

In article <1992Nov16.050533.18672@watson.ibm.com> strom@Watson.Ibm.Com (Rob Strom) writes:

[deletion]

>My proposal is to require the name of the group
>affected by a name change to appear in the subject
 ^^^^^^^^
>line of the RFD or CFV. [...]

Again, I must ask, who will decide which groups are affected, and how
will he decide?  Perhaps I have not made myself clear:  just as there
are now people claiming votes are invalid because they were not aware
a vote was taking place, in your proposed future arrangement, there
will be people claiming votes are invalid because their group was not
considered to be "affected" by the vote, and thus had no notification
posted to it.

-- 
Joshua E. Randall                       randall-joshua@yale.edu
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes)
Subject: Re: CFV? What's a CFV??
Reply-To: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov
Organization: Jet Propulsion Lab - Pasadena, CA
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 23:42:38 GMT

rorschak@daimi.aau.dk (Jesper Lauridsen) writes:
>>So there IS a standard of importance that is deemed to be "more important"
>>than others...
>Of course there is. My latest piece of pure nonsense in alt.fan.warlord is
>of less importance than Dave Lawrences list of ongoing votes in 
>news.announce.newgroups. Anyone with a different opinion is wrong.

Whoa! There it is! An example of what I am talking about:

> Anyone with a different opinion is wrong.

Here's true elitism in action, folks! Let it be known that Mr Lauridsen
is THE standard for thoughts, feelings, and actions. 

NOT!
-- 
Dave Hayes - Network & Communications Engineering - JPL / NASA - Pasadena CA
dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov       dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov         ...usc!elroy!dxh

       Love thy neighbor as thyself, but choose your neighborhood.
From: jaapjl@tab00.larc.nasa.gov (J Lee Jaap)
Newsgroups: news.groups,alt.flame.spelling
Subject: Reveil, hmmm (Re: DAVID LAWRENCE: Reveil the truth: S.R.I.A (CFV))
Followup-To: alt.flame.spelling
Date: 20 Nov 1992 22:48:48 GMT
Organization: AS&M Inc
Reply-To: J Lee Jaap <J.L.Jaap@larc.nasa.gov>
NNTP-Posting-Host: cmb00.larc.nasa.gov
In-reply-to: rafiq@rintintin.Colorado.EDU's message of Wed, 18 Nov 1992 18:01:53 GMT

In article <rafiq.722109713@rintintin.Colorado.EDU> rafiq@rintintin.Colorado.EDU (RAFIQ ANWAR) writes:

   Newsgroups: news.groups
   Message-ID: <rafiq.722109713@rintintin.Colorado.EDU>
   From: rafiq@rintintin.Colorado.EDU (RAFIQ ANWAR)
   Keywords: Call For Votes: S.R.I.A.
   Subject: DAVID LAWRENCE: Reveil the truth: S.R.I.A (CFV)
----------------------------^^^^^^
   Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
   Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 18:01:53 GMT

Why should Mr Lawrence veil the truth again?  (Surely Muslims know
what a veil is!)
--
J Lee Jaap <J.L.Jaap@LaRC.NASA.Gov> +1 804/864-2148
    employed by, not speaking for, AS&M Inc, at
         NASA LaRC, Hampton VA 23681-0001
Xref: sparky news.groups:21907 news.admin:8535
From: ggm@brolga.cc.uq.oz.au (George Michaelson)
Subject: Re: RFD: Should UK groups be sent to UUnet?
Organization: Prentice Centre, University of Queensland
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 06:55:34 GMT

You milquetoast weeds get our Australian groups, so why shouldn't we
get the chance to laugh at your parochialisms too? I long for uk.* to
see if the s:n ratio has improved since my absence (because of my absense?)

	-George
--
                         George Michaelson
G.Michaelson@cc.uq.oz.au The Prentice Centre      | There's no  market for
                         University of Queensland | hippos in Philadelphia
Phone: +61 7 365 4079    QLD Australia 4072       |          -Bertold Brecht
From: igb@fulcrum.co.uk (Ian G Batten)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: Hijacking of democracy Re: S.R.I.A.
Date: 18 Nov 92 10:07:01 GMT
Organization: Fulcrum Communications

In article <rana.722058332@rintintin.Colorado.EDU> rana@rintintin.Colorado.EDU (Nabeel Ahmad Rana) writes:
> And, I hate to tell you this that from the same article:
> "What is the Usenet":
> 
> ".... However, there is exactly one feature of Usenet that has
> a form of democracy: newsgroup creation."

Exactly.  A form of democracy.  I administer the news machines here.  I
receive a newgroup message.  I ignore it.  That is a matter between me
and my users and my management.  There is nothing that you, or anyone
else outside my company, can do about it.

All the democracy does is recommend to me that I should pay attention to
the newgroup message.

The same is true for all other Usenet sites.

ian
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: cbnorman@cayley.uwaterloo.ca (Bruce Norman)
Subject: Re: CFSV: Call for "Straw" Votes - Rec.games.frp.campaign
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 05:14:38 GMT

I wasn't trying to pull a "fast one" with my Straw Vote.  When it says 
discussion of campaign will continue if 100 votes were received, I mean
only if 100 positive votes are received.  

As for the issue of moderatorship, all references to a moderator in the
proposal should be ignored.  The "rules" will still be rules, with
or without a moderator.

Yes I am aware rules can not be enforced without a moderator.  However, 
GMs can be requested to remove players who violate rules, and GMs who
violate rules can be removed from the FAQ.

Newsgroups: news.groups
From: lwv26@cas.org (Larry W. Virden)
Subject: Re: RFD: comp.os.ms-windows.programmer.visual-basic
Followup-To: news.groups
Reply-To: lvirden@cas.org (Larry W. Virden)
Organization: Nedriv Software and Shoe Shiners, Uninc.
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 14:26:44 GMT

Well, I would guess that if you try anything EXCEPT for the above name,
your group will fail or cause major controversy since the above name is
exactly what the traditional name guidelines would say it should be.

1. currently, the following are the comp.os.ms-windows groups:

comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
comp.os.ms-windows.announce
comp.os.ms-windows.apps
comp.os.ms-windows.misc
comp.os.ms-windows.programmer.misc
comp.os.ms-windows.programmer.tools
comp.os.ms-windows.programmer.win32
comp.os.ms-windows.setup

2. There is nothing to indicate that visual-basic belongs at the same level
of naming as advocacy, apps, setup, etc.  In fact, if anything, it MIGHT be
argued that the name should be:

comp.os.ms-windows.programmer.tools.visual-basic

if indeed visual basic could not carry on in the programmer.tools group
itself.

3. As for the name being too long - as long as each part of the name is
> 0 and < 15 characters then the name isn't 'too long'.  It might be
long for someone to have to key in - if so, then they probably will quickly
figure out a way to write an editor macro, abbreviation, glossary, msdos
tsr macro, etc. to key it for them.  Or they could use an editor which
puts it into place for them.

-- 
Larry W. Virden                 UUCP: osu-cis!chemabs!lvirden
Same Mbox: BITNET: lvirden@cas  INET: lvirden@cas.org
Personal: 674 Falls Place,   Reynoldsburg, OH 43068-1614
Newsgroups: news.groups,news.admin.misc,alt.adoption,misc.kids,soc.roots
From: elle@kimbark.uchicago.edu (Ellen Keyne Seebacher)
Subject: Re: RFD/CFD: soc.adoption
Reply-To: elle@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 23:38:59 GMT

gix@mdd.comm.mot.com (Brian Gix) writes:
>This is a formal request for comments to create a group by the name:
>soc.adoption

No, it is not.  Please read the guidelines entitled "How to Create a
New Newsgroup" in news.announce.newusers; you haven't followed them.

>1) A request for discussion on creation of a new newsgroup should be 
>   posted to news.announce.newgroups...

--
Ellen Keyne Seebacher              news@uchinews.uchicago.edu
From: geoffb@coos.dartmouth.edu (Geoff Bronner)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.arts.fantasy
Keywords: fantasy RFD arts
Date: 17 Nov 92 15:59:07 GMT
Reply-To: geoffb@Dartmouth.EDU
Organization: Amos Tuck School
Disclaimer: I don't represent Dartmouth and Dartmouth doesn't represent me.


I have to agree with several previous posters. rec.arts.sf.written clearly
covers the discussion mentioned in this RFD.  My favorite magazine is
_Fantasy_&_Science_Fiction_ and I consider all of its content acceptable
for discussion in r.a.sf.written.

Also, where was the pre-RFD discussion of this idea? I didn't see anything
in any of the logical groups.

-Geoff
--
geoffb@Dartmouth.EDU - Computing Support Consultant, Tuck School of Business

Radio:    "No Funk, No Punk, No Junk. 99 Rock!"
Listener: "What? No advertisements?"
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: drew@snow.geology.wisc.edu (Drew Novick)
Subject: Re: rec.games.frp.campaign -- UNMODERATED
Organization: Dept. of Geology & Geophysics, University of Wisconsin - Madison
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 92 23:25:39 GMT

In article <Bxs0Ms.74I@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> ksdavis@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Karleenus Schwartz Davis) writes:
>cbnorman@cayley.uwaterloo.ca () writes:
>>Please note that effective immediately, rec.games.frp.campaign should be
>>considered unmoderated.  [. . .]
>
>Please post a revised proposal.  I can't imagine what the group will
>be like, combining your most recent proposal with this new information.  
>
>-sz

At this point I (who have been following the "discussion" regarding
r.g.f.campaign rather closely) have truly lost track of whether it is
unmoderated or still moderated.  By the last "official" RFD (which was
tacked on to the end of the straw vote [please don't do that, cbnorman, it
should have been two separate posts that dealt with different topics]) this
group was moderated.  Also, you have defended the moderated part of the
proposal claiming the trade-off between the faster turnaround time of the
unmoderated group was not worth the off topic posts that would be posted in
an unmoderated group.  

Please clarify the situation.

Drew Novick (drew@ice.geology.wisc.edu)
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: twpierce@unix.amherst.edu (Tim Pierce)
Subject: Re: CFV? What's a CFV??
Organization: Elitist Usenet Administrators, Stuff & Nonsense Division
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 05:34:51 GMT

In article <1992Nov17.235651.17091@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov writes:

>That may have been workable a few years ago, but the USENET consensus
>you describe doesn't actually represent more than a handfull of people
>in comparison with readership surveys. Lots of sites do NOT GET news.groups,

Honestly, I don't think that such sites should be taken seriously.
News.groups is among the most important newsgroups a site can receive.
If one chooses not to receive it -- or, for that matter, just about
any newsgroup in news.*, they have willfully forsaken their part in
the newsgroup creation/organization process.

Please, no comments about people who don't know the purpose of
news.groups, etc.  These sites are set up by *someone* with at least a
ghost of a clue how Usenet works.  Those people have a responsibility
to ensure that news.* gets fed to the target site.

-- 
____ Tim Pierce                / 
\  / twpierce@unix.amherst.edu /               Rocks say goodbye.
 \/ (BITnet: TWPIERCE@AMHERST) /
From: randall-joshua@yale.edu (Joshua Randall)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: misc.jobs.non-computers
Date: 18 Nov 1992 20:28:14 -0500
Organization: Yale University Science & Engineering UNIX(tm), New Haven, CT 06520-2158
NNTP-Posting-Host: minerva.cis.yale.edu

In article <1992Nov18.235813.8634@leland.Stanford.EDU> igj@leland.Stanford.EDU (Ian Glen Jacobs) writes:

[deletion--Mr. Jacobs quotes "David Russell" below]

>[...] I imagine employers don't post too many
>"non-computer" jobs because their post would just be "lost" among all
>the other posts, and many "non-computer" job hunters don't use this
>group for very long because it is so hard to find that 1 in 100 posts
>that may be appropriate. It is just a vicious cycle 
>which can only be remedied by the creation of a new group.
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

This seems to be a common misconception.  Creating a new group will
not "rememdy" the situation by causing displaced job seekers to flock
to the new group.  It will merely create a new group.

If there really are a lot of non-computer related job posts getting
lost, then why don't the users of that group try to encourage good
subject headers before creating a new group?

Let's look for small solutions to our newgroup problems before
spending the resources to create a new group.

-- 
Joshua E. Randall                       randall-joshua@yale.edu
From: mikel@networx.com (Mike Lempriere)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: misc.home.automation
Date: 18 Nov 92 01:07:52 GMT
Organization: NetWorx
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]

David Paigen (paigen@tfs.com) wrote:
: I have not seen much traffic on this topic, and I look in a number
: of places for it.
: 
: However, there is a mailing list that serves this need.  I doubt that
: a newsgroup is warrented.
[.sig deleted]

I'm interested in this topic, but would never have known where to look!
I had no idea anyone else out there cared about it!

This is one vote for such a newsgroup!
Newsgroups: news.groups,rec.music.makers.synth
From: gary@sci34hub.sci.com (Gary Heston)
Subject: Re: RENAME: Those against name change PLEASE READ!
Reply-To: gary@sci34hub.sci.com (Gary Heston)
Organization: SCI Systems, Inc., Huntsville, Al.
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 17:58:52 GMT

In article <1992Nov16.040047.16213@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov writes:
|chip@tct.com (Chip Salzenberg) writes:
|>According to dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov:
|>>chip@tct.com (Chip Salzenberg) writes:
|>>>Directing followups only to r.m.m.s is a puerile trick.
|>>I wanted to show that I was fair.
|>As opposed to excellent or good, perhaps?

|Ah HA! So you ADMIT that a "fair" vote is not necessarily "good"!

Congratulations Dave; this statement is so rediculous and so far
off base that you're joining the select few in my global KILL file.

Your behavior in misdirecting followups has nothing whatsoever to
do with the vote itself, nor did Chip make any admission of any sort.

Your conduct has degraded to or possibly below incoherence. I see no
point in reading it any longer, and suspect many others are past this
point also.

-- 
Gary Heston    SCI Systems, Inc.  gary@sci34hub.sci.com   site admin
The Chairman of the Board and the CFO speak for SCI. I'm neither.
"Data sheet: HSN-3000 Nuclear Event Detector. The [NED] senses the gamma
radiation pulse [from a] nuclear weapon." As if we wouldn't notice...
From: fenner@postscript.cs.psu.edu (Bill Fenner)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: This has nothing to do with .campaign.
Date: 15 Nov 92 21:12:39 GMT
Organization: Penn State Computer Science

In article <n0e6dt@ofa123.fidonet.org> Kay.Shapero@f524.n102.z1.fidonet.org writes:
|On second thought, with that ID I suspect you're Bruce Norman.  Could
|you PLEASE get your sysadmin to fix your setup so it stops dumping your
|name?

Rather, could you PLEASE get your USENET->Fidonet gateway to fix his setup so
it stops dumping Bruce's ID?

  Bill
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: chip@tct.com (Chip Salzenberg)
Subject: Re: Intentional ignorance of newsgroup creation
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 15:36:05 GMT
Organization: TC Telemanagement, Clearwater, FL

According to gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen):
>In article <2B07A7A2.A699@tct.com> chip@tct.com (Chip Salzenberg) writes:
>> According to gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen):
>> >4. The guidelines put forth in "How to create a new Usenet newsgroup"  
>> >   apply to group renames and deletions.
>> >5. A description of the voting process from the voters' point of view -  
>> >   not the vote-taker's.
>> 
>> Item [4] is factually incorrect; no one knows how to delete a
>> mainstream Usenet group...
>
>I added deletions because when you perform a rename you are performing an  
>addition and a deletion.

Then you shouldn't have said "renames _and_ deletions"; if you
consider a rename to be "really" an addition and a deletion, then
there is no such thing a a "rename" any more.  But that's a quibble.

>> Reading the instructions to the vote taker tells voters what they need
>> to know.
> 
>There is an amount of extraneous information in "How to create a new  
>Usenet newsgroup" for the user wishing to vote (not to mention an  
>innapropriate title from a voter's point of view).

Title, sure.  But I am not prepared to believe that it is even
possible to achieve, much less desireable to strive for, documents
with no "extraneous information".
-- 
Chip Salzenberg at Teltronics/TCT  <chip@tct.com>, <73717.366@compuserve.com>
                 just another elitist Usenet administrator
Newsgroups: news.groups,soc.culture.indian,soc.culture.pakistan,soc.culture.bangladesh