Newsgroups: alt.dads-rights

I'll post this note in alt.dads-rights and mail a copy to Mr. Cage, I
don't have access to talk.abortion.  
I apologise for taking up as much bandwith as I already have with this
subject, I didn't intend to, but I couldn't allow Mr. Cage's attack to
go unanswered.

> -In alt.dads-rights, wreck@fmsrl7.srl.ford.com (R. Cage) writes:
> ->  In <16650009@hpnmdla.sr.hp.com> larryf@hpnmdla.sr.hp.com (Larry Ferreira) writes:
> ->  This is an anti-abortionist lie.  There is no such effect.
> ->  If you continue to claim otherwise, cite reliable medical
> ->  authorities (peer-reviewed papers in authoritative journals,
> ->  not Bernard Nathanson).
> -
> -I don't even know who Bernard Nathanson is.  I don't want to get into
> -a debate with you on the subject.  The 'burden of proof' argument goes
> -both ways, and statistics do lie.  All I know is that in studying the
> -effects on abortion I've run across what I've said above and I stand on
> -my above statements.
> 
> So, in what journals have you published your results?
> 
> Don't tell me you're relying on anecdotal evidence without
> any kind of statistical controls, and presenting this as
> a universal truth, now.  I'd be seriously disappointed.
>

I take it your question is not based on obtaining knowledge, but to be
used as a retorical putdown.

> 
> ->  >This also causes a lot of physical stress to the woman's body, not to 
> ->  >mention her mental stability.
> -
> ->  Physical stress:
> ->  Chance of death from abortion before 8 weeks:       1 in 400,000
> ->  Chance of death from abortion, 8-12 weeks:  1 in 100,000
> ->  Chance of death from full-term pregnancy:   1 in  10,000
> -
> -I wonder how many of the deaths caused by full-term pregnancy are caused
> -by improper medical care?  Again statistics can be made to favor whatever
> -way fits an argument.
> 
> Don't change the subject.  You were claiming abortion is stressful.
> (Half-truth.)  I supplied the other half of the truth.  Now either
> 'fess up or go away.

"'fess up or go away."  Another put-down argument.

Here are the statistics you 'asked' for.  Although I doubt they'll do
any good in convinceing you of how one sided your position is.  But first
let me re-state what my original position was and is:  Consequences of
abortion do exist, and women have the right to know what they are before
they choose abortion as their option.

Since, from the statistics above you chose to limit the time frame to
an eight week period, I deal with that.  About 95% of all the abortions
done are done by the 'Suction Curettage' method, and this is the method
used for pregnacies below the 12 week period.  It is the most commonly 
performed abortion.  The cervix is dilated, a hollow plastic tube with
a shape edge on its tip is inserted into the womb.  Suction is applied,
and the embryo or fetus is torn into a glass jar.  If the fetus is ten
weeks or older, the fetus may be too large to be completely sucked out
of the womb, in which case manual cutting and scraping is necessary.

Pregnancies developing outside of the womb are responsible for 12% of all
maternal deaths. <-- This is from the 'Annual Ectopic Totals Rose Steadily
in 1970's, but Mortality Rates Fell', and article from Family Planning
Perspectives, March/April 1983, p.253 

Studies have found that the risk of such a pregnancy is roughly doubled
for women who have had one abortion and multiplied up to four times for
women with two or more previous abortions.  <-- from  1. 'Ectopic Pregnancy
and Prior Induced Abortion' Ann Aschengrau Levin, et al, American Journal
of Public Health, March 1982, pg. 253;  2. 'Secondary Infertility Following
Induced Abortion', Lampe, et. al., Studies in Family Planning, Vol. 15,
No. 6 part 1. Nov.-Dec. 1984. (In Levin: op cit);  3. 'Ectopic Pregnancy'
M. Hern, T. Tomazevic, D. Seigel: In: Andolsek (ed): The Ljubjana Abortion
Study, 1971-1973. Bethesda: National Institutes of Health, 1974, pp.34-38
 (In Levin: op cit.);  4.  'The Relationshop Between Artificial Abortion
 & Extrauterine Pregnancy', C. Swazaki Family Planning Federation of Japan,
 1966, pp.49-63;  5. see 'The Relationship Between Induced Abortion an
 Outcome of Subsequent Pregnancies', Shai Linn, M.D., American Journal
 of Obstetrics & Gynecology, May 1983, pp. 136-140.

Pelvic infection is a common and serious complication of induced abortion.
It leads to fever and infertility.  One researcher says, "Pelvic infection
is a serious complication ... and has been reported in up to 30% of all cases"
-- 'Postabortal Pelvic Infection Associated with Chlamydia Tracomatis and
the Influence of Humoral Immunity', Stellan Osser, M.D., and Denneth Persson,
M.D., Andrican Journal of Obstetics & Gynecology, Nov. 1984, pp.699-703.

Other physicians have found that infections such as endomitriosis follow
approximately 5% of abortion porcedures.  And the risk of infection for
younger women is over twice that for older women.  1. 'Culture and Treatment
Results in Endometritis Following Elective Abortion' Ronald T. Burkman,
M.D., American Journal of Obstetics & Gynecology, July 1977, pp556-599
2. 'Morbidity Risk Amoung Young Adolecents Undergoing Elective Abortion',
Ronald T. Burkman, M.D., Fertility Control Center, Johns Hopkins Medical
Institutions, August 1984, pp99-105.

I could go on and on...
> 
> ->  Mental stress:  Post-partum depression is well-documented and
> ->  irrefutable.  "Post-abortion syndrome" cannot be demonstrated
> ->  reliably.
> -
> -Perhaps, but from personal experiences I seen it.
> 
> Have you?  A recent study found that teenagers who abort have
> *less* stress and go on to be *more* successful in school and
> remain off welfare than either teens who carry to term or those
> who turned out not to be pregnant.  Sounds anti-stressful to me.
> Also empowering, giving them a sense of self-worth and -control.
> 
Again your argument does not fit what I've seen.  I was a volunteer for
two years at a Pregnancy Crisis Center, where I started a male counseling
program.  Although I did not allow myself to counsel women, I was in constant
contact with volunteers that did.  For the women, the volunteer would
follow the case beyond either delivery, adoption, or abortion.  In the
case of abortion two paths are taken.  1. Get pregnant again, and start
a cycle of abortion, or 2. Deal with the emotional reasons which lead to
the pregnancy and the choice of abortion and end the cycle.

There have been studies which show the opposite results from which you
stated.  And, no doubt, there will be studies for a long time to come.
Abortion, as we know it today, is relativity new.  The long term effects
are yet to be seen.

> Has it occured to you that you are seeing stress from the attitudes
> of judgemental people such as yourself, or religious indoctrination?
> 

Yes, it has.  Yet in our society these things are real and they will be
around a lot longer than you or I.  We need to deal with these issues
in a sane and orderly way, not just rant and rave about how we feel.

Again all I'm saying is that the consequence of our choice ought not be
surpressed.  By knowing both sides of an issues its easier to make a choice
you can live with.

> ->  Abortion is both physically and mentally easier than not aborting.
> -
> -Dying is physically and mentally easier than living, so what!  I'm just
> -stating that abortion is not without its conquences.
> 
> Another half-truth.  If birth and abortion were the only two runners
> in a race, you'd claim that birth came in second while abortion came
> in next to last.  True, but hardly complete or in good faith.

I would say you are the one speaking in half-truths.  You took a neutral
position and turned it into an argument.

> 
> I'm cross-posting to talk.abortion.  Followups are directed there.

Larry Ferreira
Newsgroups: alt.dads-rights