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Date:         Tue, 26 Jan 1993 16:00:00 EST
From:         "Toby Fenwick, Middlebury College" <TFENWICK@MIDD.BITNET>
Subject:      Macedonia
Comments: To: politics@ucf1vm.bitnet

Dear Netters,

        I did not want to get into this argument, as it is becoming too
emotional and the reasoning on both sides is lacking. As I see it there are a
few really important questions that need to be asked: If we are able to answer
these questions in a rational considered manner, then we are well on the way to
solving these questions. I will refer to the Nation whose capital is Skopje as
Macedonia (Skopje) to differentiate between the Greek province of the same
name; I intend no slight to either side in this but merely to differentiate
between them.


1.      Who has the right to decide the name of nations other than their own?

2.      Does Macedonia (Skopje) pose any kind of threat to Greece?

3.      Has Greece any legitimate territorial claims over Macedonia (Skopje)?

4.      Is Macedonia (Skopje) endargered by the Greek economic blockade?

5.      Would the recognition of Macedonia (Skopje) prove an unacceptable drain
        on the national character of Greece, and if so why?

        IF the answers to these are trivial (as I suspect thay may be), then we
should go to the UN Charter Article 1 and study the idea of non-interference in
other nations' affairs. IF the answers show that the Skopje poses a threat to
the fabric of the Greek State, then we should pinpoint why and find a way of
solving them. The current state of affairs is appaling and discrediting all of
those involved. I hope that this puts the discussions back in the real world;
the suffering of the Balkan peoples should be intolerable to all members of the
international community. (I also have a flame-proof suit on, and I'm preparing
to duck.)

Cheers!


Toby

________________________________________________________________________________
Toby Fenwick                                    TFENWICK@MIDD.BITNET
Middlebury College                              TFENWICK@MIDD.CC.MIDDLEBURY.EDU
(802)-388-3711 ext 4069
________________________________________________________________________________
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Date:         Thu, 28 Jan 1993 20:51:32 MET
From:         Grzegorz Albinowski <caius@II.UJ.EDU.PL>
Organization: Institute of Computer Science, Jagellonian University Cracow
Subject:      Re: the right
Comments: To: POLITICS@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu
              93 3:45 pm

>>
>> I hope you understand also that, as you consider yourselves a
>> "rightist," and want to disassociate your opinions from the Nazis,
>> I, as a "leftist" do not want the authoritarian governments of
>> China, Russia, Cuba and the Warsaw Pact to be associated with my
>> beliefs.
>>
>> Is this understood?




Someone (I don't remember who) said that "rightist" and "leftist"
describe civilised forms of governments. So let's, for a moment, assume all
those Nazis, Soviets, Cubans are just barbarians. And let's discuss
civilised solutions.

You say you are leftists. You must have some sort of political and/or economic
programme. What do you mean? Tell me: what do you like or dislike in our world.
What do you want to leave as it is? What do you want to change?

I'll tell you what I think.

>> Dave

Caius
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Date:         Wed, 27 Jan 1993 16:25:25 EST
From:         Kerry Stephenson <KSTE@PURCCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Hillary & Health Care
              27 Jan 1993 15:51:19 -0400 from <DEMON@DESIRE.WRIGHT.EDU>

Brett':

Didn't mean to hurt your feelings (but take it like a man :-) ).
It's just that I thought it was an Article of Faith amongst
the conservative listmembers that Jay Steven Sultan is the
ideal we all seek to emulate (especially when he is not present).

No harm intended.  Besides, as we all know, since I am a woman
I have a perfect (not to say "divine") right to be both
fickle and illogical.

Ciao,
     --NINAR Kerry
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Date:         Sat, 23 Jan 1993 19:42:00 EST
From:         "Toby Fenwick, Middlebury College" <TFENWICK@MIDD.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Bushwhacking Saddam

Dear Brett,

        If you seriously believe that there was not a Nintendo side of the war
in the Gulf, then why did the military keep the pres in the Press [cess] Pools
with out the ability to go and really find out what was happening in Iraq. The
muzzling of the press in the way that it occured was designed to dehumanise the
suffering of the Iraqis and the fact that smart bombs were not that good and
that they were not the majority of the munitions dropped over Iraq.

Just a thought......


Toby
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Date:         Wed, 27 Jan 1993 09:57:02 -0400
From:         The Integral Differential <DEMON@DESIRE.WRIGHT.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Reagan's legacy and the politics of the SC
Comments: To: POLITICS@OHSTVMA.ACS.OHIO-STATE.EDU

>
>I know...they must be magicians or something...for the last decade they've
>shown a remarkable ability to legislate their morality for the rest
>of us. :)
>-T.

        And how will they legislate something that never comes before them for
review?

Brett'
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Date:         Wed, 27 Jan 1993 10:20:24 EST
From:         todd pukanecz <CCCS@VTVM1.BITNET>
Subject:      Hillary & Health Care

I find the ruckus over Hillary's appointment to the head of the Health
Reform task force to be very humorous.

Any task force, and Clinton's cabinet, must contain alot of FOBs.
(Why would he use EOBs?)  These must be people Billy knows, or at least
knows of, but more importantly, they must be people that he trusts.
That this circle of people contains a number of minorities does not
speak poorly of the man.

The "AK was 48th in education" is a useless statistic, so sticking
that on Hillary's AK education reform is not germane to the discussion
of health care reform or the task force.

The HCTF is to initiate the legislation for health care reform, so it
is not inappropriate for a number of lawyers to be involved.  Billy C
made health care reform a cornerstone of his campaign, and his presi-
dency, as well as being a crucial factor in deficit reduction.  It
is the President's but that is in the sling here, so he needs someone
he can trust totally to head this task force.

Is it possible that all the fuss over Hillary's appointment is because
she is <gasp> a woman?
    toddddddddddd

=========== Wake up John Doe.  You're the hope of the world! ===========
--------     /^^\    ---- Todd Pukanecz ----   ----  CCCS@VTVM1  ----
-----      /      >   --- Ag. Econ. DPL --- "If you lie on your back and
---  /\_ / @       \   -- Virginia Tech --   cry in your pillow you get
-  /________________>   - Blacksburg VA -    tears in your ears."
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Date:         Thu, 28 Jan 1993 07:51:14 EST
From:         K=A*T <MEC038@UKCC.UKY.EDU>
Subject: Re: "On Gay Rights ..."

On Wed, 27 Jan 1993 12:24:00 EST Carl A. Lahetta said:

>   A homosexual act is a homosexual act.  Besides, if gays and pedophiles are
>   different then what about NAMBLA.  To NAMBLA both sex and gender are
>   important.

A heterosexual act is a heterosexual act.  Therefore,
all heterosexuals are rapists.  And what about all
those evil men who molest young girls.  To them both
the sex and gender (what ever that means) are
important.

Teah, what about THEM, Carl.

How is your lunch, Carl?  Is all the housework done?

>Carl---+

--KAT
From: SPRG0002@TULSAJC.BITNET (Robert Moss)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Subject: Uncl: Corporate America (was Re: Uncl: class discussion)
Date: 26 Jan 93 15:50:13 GMT
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Comments:     Resending note of Tue,
              26 Jan 1993 10:38:03 GMT from Dunstan_Vavasour
              <dunstan@GEC-EPL.CO.UK>
Comments: To: politics@ohstvma.bitnet

*** Resending note of 01/26/93 10:32

>It doesn't matter who you blame, what matters is that companies which
>are in terminal decline are left to die and have their place taken by
>new and better companies,...
>Dunstan.

If you're betting that IBM is 'terminal', I'd like to get in on some
of that.  What kind of odds are you offering?

---Robert
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Date:         Sat, 23 Jan 1993 21:03:15 -0700
From:         Dom Maddalone <DMADDALONE@UH01.COLORADO.EDU>
Subject:      Re: smoke smoke smoke that cigarette
Comments: To: POLITICS@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu

Ramon, your friendly Dictator <R_ALEMAN@UPR1.UPR.CLU.EDU> writes:

> >> Smoking or non-smoking, the number one cause of death of human beings
> >> in America today is pre-natal dismemberment.  1.5 million per year.
> >> And climbing.
>
> >    Pre-natal?  Pre-BIRTH human beings?  Please give me your definition of
> >a human being.
>
>         Oh, no! Not again.... Red alert! Red alert! Prepare for incoming
> onslaught of abortion messages. Mr. Sulu, raise shields. Chekov, lock in
> the "delete" phasers...

    You're probably right.  I withdraw the question.

    Dom Maddalone, dmaddalone@uh01.colorado.edu
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Date:         Fri, 22 Jan 1993 16:25:04 -0400
From:         The Integral Differential <DEMON@DESIRE.WRIGHT.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Ms. perception
Comments: To: POLITICS@OHSTVMA.ACS.OHIO-STATE.EDU

>
>So who's the most likely new AG nominee?  And what exactly was it about Zoe
>Baird that got people so *very* het up?
>
>Kerry

        Her apology came across the same way as Bush's explanation of how he
related to the common person.

Brett'
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Date:         Tue, 26 Jan 1993 20:39:15 EST
From:         Tim Johnson <ST402711@BROWNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: 7-11 guide

>He gets a ton of case names, citations, and page numbers.  Otherwise,
>the outcome is predictable "my excerpts do not include the relevant
>phrasing" (see reference to his 7-11 guide in post of Jan 13).  Just
>make sure you are fair, and jump his case when he doesn't answer my
>list in a single day.

  Well, I'm sure you can best him.  I'd just be more sure
if I could see a single one of those tons of citations you
plan to offer.  Still, empty threats are impressive...for
a little while.

                     -Tim
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Date:         Tue, 26 Jan 1993 15:03:38 PDT
From:         Stan Jacobs <JACOBS@125LAW1.LAW.UCLA.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Health Care Reform
Comments: To: POLITICS@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu

>
>  since she is a relative that she could not be paid (Nepotisim law passed
 after
>  the JFK administration I suppose) So in a few words, she is doing this as a

Nepotism law signed by a resentful LBJ against JFK's selection of
little brother Bobby as Attorney General  (best explained by Jack
Nicholson, in HOFFA, when he says, "At least I didn't have to get my
f(*&ing brother elected President just so I could get a f*&%ing job!")

Ironically, the best position for Hillary--prohibited by this law--
would have been as Attorney General.  That is where she is most
qualified.  (Certainly not in health care, and as we've seen in
Arkansas, not in education...)   The L.A. Times also had another
article this morning about Hillary's mother--  somebody Rodham--
being disappointed that Sandra Day O'Connor beat Hillary to the
Court.  Interesting... to say the least.

--Stan
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
From: jhalat@csfb1.fir.fbc.com (James Halat)
Subject: Re:      Re: A renewal of my argument about "rightism" ...
Reply-To: uunet!csfb1!jhalat
Organization: First Boston Corporation
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 19:46:22 GMT

This is for: Caius

The Nazi's were reactionary:
   They wanted order returned to what they perceived as the original
   most perfect form:  the Arayan Tribe.  The focus on Purity through 
   eugenics is enough proof of this.

The Nazi's were conservative:
   They suppressed and/or censored ALL of the artists in ALL of the
   art forms allowed to remain in Germany. Music, Painting, Sculpture,
   Theatre, Movie Making, Writing, etc.  Again, this was done to insure
   preservation of what they perceived to be the desired original
   existing order.  No dissidents need apply.

The Nazi's were to the extreme right:
   Extremely reactionary; extremely conservative.

The Nazi's were fascist:
   They were a dictatorship of the extreme right with a belligerent 
   nationalism, with a merging of state and business leadership.

The Nazi's failed:
   Otherwise this exchange of thoughts and ideas would not be
   happening.



cheers-
jim

-- 
James Halat                    e-mail:  uunet!csfb1!jhalat          
The First Boston Corporation   -- I speak only for myself --
New York City                     


























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Date:         Fri, 22 Jan 1993 07:35:07 CST
From:         "rufus t. firefly" <U9AA@SDSUMUS.SDSTATE.EDU>
Subject:      Re: 12:01 PM
Comments: To: POLITICS@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu

> From rufus t.:
>
> >empower america - kemp '96
>
> I get it now! Seeing as the republicans ruled over the great realignment of
> wealth in America to a small privileged few, their '96 slogan makes sense!
>

    one of three things is behind this statement; ignorance of facts,
blatant stupidity, or a blind hatred for anyone and anything labelled
"republican" or "conservative". i kinda figure it's mostly the last.

> "KEMP" doesn't just stand for Jack - it's a veiled slogan:
>
>         "Keep Everybody Monetarily Poor"
>
> Kinda nice to know they won't get the chance to implement it, isn't it?
>
>
> -T.

   i heard this a while ago, dunno where. appropriate, i think . . .

   "republicans want to make everyone equally rich. democrats want to
make everyone equally poor."

rtf
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Date:         Wed, 27 Jan 1993 12:11:12 EST
From:         K=A*T <MEC038@UKCC.UKY.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Gennifer says: [who cares]!
              27 Jan 1993 10:54:08 -0400 from <DEMON@DESIRE.WRIGHT.EDU>

On Wed, 27 Jan 1993 10:54:08 -0400 The Integral Differential said:

>> But Clinton did not *admit* anything either (except the Mario
>> reference and that it was basically him on the tape).  And many
>> tape-analysts said that the tape had been "doctored"
>
>        Except that show where Hillary said she had forgiven him....
>
>Brett'

I saw the show.  Bill admitted to no specific sin and
Hillary did forgive him but for an unspecified
behavior.

Let's offer some substantive facts or drop this.

--KAT
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Date:         Sun, 24 Jan 1993 01:50:28 EST
From:         Kerry Stephenson <KSTE@PURCCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      V Elections

Mornin':

Could somebody please e-mail me the results of the Virtual Elections,
so I know who to overth- I mean, petition for redress of grievances?

Sorry about my dropping out like that.  It all had to do with Ross
Perot's daughter's wedding, a compromising photo of Fergie and
Di, and the State Department's search for my mysteriously missing
birth certificate (which itself is missing several crucial lines.)

Remember:  You never know who might be watching.  TV, I mean.  Honest,
  I meant TV.

--NINAR Kerry
==========================
I am a rock; I am an island.  I never returned Maya Angelou's phone
  call, and I never met the woman.  I have no idea what she was
  talking about, and I've contacted a lawyer.
From: RIGEORGE@VASSAR.BITNET (Rick George)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Subject: Re: Health Care Reform
Date: 26 Jan 93 16:12:42 GMT
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>What let me get this straight the Secretary of Defense is on a task force for
> health care reform, I'm sorry but, I"m not up to date on the new cabinent
> appt's (I have a very bad memory) Isn't Lee Aspen Defense Secretary, I know
> Lloyd Bentsen, is Treasur Secretary, I can understand that, but a defense
> secretary, well if that's the case why doesn't Warren Christopher join them,
> (Sec of State for people like me) What's the logic if you don't mind explainin
   g
> to me, furthermore, as chair of the task force, Mrs.. Clinton is held directly
> responsible, with the exception of bad faith and mockery, what's the official
> liability if she doesn't produce?


Who's who on the President's task force on health care:

Hillary Rodham Clinton--First Lady
Carol Rasco--domestic policy adviser
Ira Magaziner--senior policy adviser
Judy Feder--headed Clinton's health care transition
Lloyd Bentsen--Secretary of the Treasury
Les Aspin--Secretary of Defense
Ron Brown--Secretary of Commerce
Robert Reich--Secretary of Labor
Donna Shalala--Secretary of Health and Human Services
Jesse Brown--Secretary of Veterans Affairs
Leon Panetta--Director of the Office of Management and Budget
Robert Rubin--economic policy adviser
Laura Tyson--chairman of the Council of Economic Advisors

Why did Clinton put people like Bentsen and Aspin on the task force?  Perhaps
to show the importance that he has assigned to the issue.

I'm not sure what you mean by what is Hillary Clinton's "official liability"
if she doesn't produce as chair of this task force.  Ultimately, it is
Bill Clinton's name on the marquee and if an important task force fails
in its assigned task, he gets the blame for that.

...Rick
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Date:         Mon, 25 Jan 1993 13:30:38 -0500
From:         MCW001@ACAD.DRAKE.EDU
Subject:      Re: Rush Limbaugh & Politics
Comments: To: POLITICS@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu

NINAR Kerry writes:

>If, indeed, those who follow Rush are in great number, AND we assume
>that they are in agreement with him on matters of politics, we must
>then take into account the possibility that his brand of conservatism
>is more influential than certain people would like to believe.

>You seek to assume that, because (in your mind) his ideas are not of
>high quality, his influence is small.  That is neither an accurate nor
>a wise assumption.
        If anyone in this conversation is bearing the burden of inaccurate
or unwise assumptions, it would have to be you Kerry.  YOU think that
because I disagree with nearly everything he says, I necessarily dismiss
the fact that he can be influential and can have a large following.  You
couldn't land farther from the truth without a deeply concentrated
effort.  The central problem I (and others) have with your repeated
citings of his mass appeal, is that you imply that as some sort of
vindication for your postion (and his).  Just because there are a lot
of people who agree on the same things and have the same tastes
does not prove correctness or falsity- it simply means that a lot of
people agree on the same things and have the same tastes...

>Political power is of such a character that quality of candidate,
>importance of issues, and wisdom have little to do with outcome.
        Uhh, exactly, Kerry.  But doesn't that kinda hit Rush where he lives?

>Intellectuals dismiss the hopes and dreams of those they consider
>less pedigreed... At their peril.
        Been reading a little too much Pol Pot these days?  And, again, aren't
you hoisting yourself by your own petard with this comment?

                        Travlr
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Date:         Thu, 28 Jan 1993 11:40:23 CST
From:         fred <CCHILDER@UNMCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Inquiring minds want to know

Since Brett' has looked at penthouse on at least one occassion, does
that make penthouse a conservative magazine? Does that mean that Brett'
approves of/condones exploitation of women? Does Rush share your tastes
in literaure? :)

This disclosure could seriously jeapordize your efforts to become a
buddy with the right wing members.

fred
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