Newsgroups: alt.feminism
Subject: Re: Winning by Violation (was: new group?)
From: moselecw@elec.canterbury.ac.nz (C.W. Moseley)
Date: 1 Sep 92 12:01:53 +1200
 <MUFFY.92Aug25143703@remarque.berkeley.edu> <p#bnmxf.payner@netcom.com>
Distribution: world
Organization: Electrical Engineering, University of Canterbury, New Zealand

warning: this is not a logically ordered post, you may have to read it twice to
get an understanding of it. sorry if this makes it hard to deal with.

johnh@geovision.gvc.com (John Hayman)
muffy@remarque.berkeley.edu (Muffy Barkocy)
payner@netcom.com (Rich Payne)
all write:

muffy> [Women-only spaces]...fear of men that some women who have been raped have.  

Rich> I can see where this would be a valid reason. For the record, I do not
Rich> see anything inherently wrong in such orginizations. But I do perceive
Rich> a bias that male only orginizations are wrong. And there seems to be no
Rich> corresponding bias about female only orginizations.
because most male-only organisations are `old school' patriarchal institutes.
Sports clubs generally included. The few mens groups I know of have no problem,
because our space is recognised by the women in our lives. However, to give
one example, I actively support forcing Businessmens Clubs to become co-ed,
because these are used as another way to keep women out of big business.

muffy> As far as reasons, one that I personally find convincing is the fear of
muffy>men that some women who have been raped have... rape of men
muffy>and whether they have similar needs or fears - do men feel that they
muffy>need a men-only rape counselling facility?

John> The majority of (reported) rapes of men are performed by men...
John> In the majority of cases women are unable to physically assault and rape
John> a man.  However, I believe
John> that women are capable of emotionally assaulting a man much more than they
John> realize.  I think (pure speculation feel free to flame) that men are as
John> afraid to seek conselling on the emotional abuse they receive as female
John> (change that--all) rape victims are to seek counselling.  

yes. ever been laughed at when you claim to be upset because of what your
(petite, feminine looking) girlfriend has just done (when you are obviously
upset). Been there. It seems now that she has two sorts of males in her life:
the ones she fucks, and the friends. You may not be both, foolish me for not
seeing this. after all a `real man' would never take that, or alternatively
would not even notice it... I got these responses, alright. Counselling was
`fun' as I needed a BiFriendly feminist male counsellor, these being in short
supply in Christchurch.

muffy> ...need a men-only rape counselling facility? 
Rich> This I cannot answer. But I suspect that admitting such a thing would be
Rich> a problem. Another observation, please do not take these the wrong way,
Rich> is that when many women have problems with a man, they get mad at -all- men.

funny how there isn't a corollary to `misogyny'. Is this the new `problem
without a name'? 

Myself, I went through a 6 month period of avoiding ALL hetersexual women as
potential partners after a disastrous relationship with one. It was definitely
abusive, and took me a while to work out that she was constantly beating me
over the head with my `typical male' actions whenever she wanted to get her
own way.

Rich> (from above)I have not seen a parallel situation in men when they have
Rich>  problems with woman. I am not sure that there is a parallel need.

it's there, but saying anything about it is very sexist at the least, usually
accusations of misogyny follow very quickly from those who don't physically
run away. Maybe it's just the people I hang out with, but this sort of thing
apparently needs to be `challenged', and I now have it pat: `louise did some
really nasty things to me, and your behavior reminds me very strongly of that'.
This is usually enough, we can talk about what she did, and why, but it is still
seen as my problem, me provoking her into acting that way.

MOZ