From: silva@pangea.Stanford.EDU (Holly Silva)
Subject: Re: Loud irritating obtrusive American tourists, er, USENETters
Keywords: obnoxious loudmouthed bigotted culturally impaired USAian disgrace
Organization: Stanford Univ. Earth Sciences
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 19:29:06 GMT

Poser:
>Malone:
>ian@sinix.UUCP (Ian Malone) continues his little stormtrooper pavane in 
>soc.culture.usa and now really merits horse-whipping with barbed wire. I'll
>be utterly delighted to accomodate You there, boy:
>
>(Attention, Stupendous Man, Silva, this is exactly the type of poster that
>I have been alluding to earlier this year. So how do You like him?)
>
>
	Malone made a compleat (as you say) ass out of himself, as you
well know. He was hardly unprovoked however, something that none of his
critics have troubled to mention. Both Herr Margulis and the Afrikaaner
who began this thread qualify as obnoxious loudmouthed bigotted culturally
impaired (uncertain nationality) disgraces. So, why the Sturm und Drang
over the American flame-rebuttal only, hmmm?

Margulis:
>|>>Unfortunately many (probably not most) are. The basic problem, as far
>|>>as I believe, is with the totally inadequate system of education in 
>|>>the US. Thus you get all these undereducated americans that seem to 
>|>>be specifically bred to "do" Europe in 5 days or less.
>

[Flaming-twit rebuttal deleted]

Poser:
>What's Your point, boy, if You have any, that is?
>
	I'd venture to guess that his point, however ungracefully made, 
was that Herr Margulis displayed a truly contemptible, elitist propensity
for gross generalization. Malone's anger may have been prompted by the
the fact that he has encountered far too much fixation upon American
cultural/political flaws on the part of well-off Westerners, who
have their own histories of national disgrace and cultural myopia.
	What Margulis wrote was not in itself deserving of such a hot-
headed response. But after one hears this sort of shit repeatedly in
one's dealings with the educated elite of Europe, one begins to lose all
patience, and indeed, all respect for any voicing of European complaints
in regards to Americans.

>It is said that traveling, or going abroad, educates. With You I have to 
>conclude that it only reinforces mindless bigotry.
>
	Continuous exposure to relentless Yank-bashing does tend 
to reinforce and even create mindless bigotry in people who might
otherwise have broadened their horizons -- but I've really begun to 
believe that there is a sizeable class of Westerners who prefer it that
way. By that I mean a sizeable group of non-American members of the
monied 'Western' or 'First-world' elite who prefer their Americans 
rabid and right-wing, in order to despise us in safe and comfortable
political rectitude.
	This observation is not based on my brief read of soc.* groups
or rec.travel, but on roughly 15 years of adult life and travel in both
Europe and North America.

>|>Yea, those same asshole americans that saved you and everyone else's
>|>asses from the Nazi.  I seem to remember Switzerland being neutral.
>|>Yea, that would have lasted long.  You would have been a state of
>|>Bayern. 
>
>Naw, even the Nazis needed a tax-shelter and a haven for their illgotten
>gains. But then again history doesn't seem to be Your forte. Remember, boy,
>that the US had to be dragged kicking and screaming into WWII. Of course
>You don't remember that Rooseveldt won the '40s election on the strength of
>not getting into yet another European embroglio. Of course You don't know 
>that Germany declared war on the US and initiated hostilities. Of course 
>You forget the paltry little contributions of countries like the UK or the
>USSR. Of course!
>
	I've noticed recently in read a WWII thread in soc.culture.french
that the modern European view of the second _World_ War tends to be overly
euro-centric. The paragraph above is certainly in keeping with that trend.
Japan initiated hostilities with the US when they bombed Pearl Harbor on
December 7th, 1941. The other Axis powers declared war on us after
we'd declared war on Japan. For us, the war in the Pacific always took 
precedence over the war in Europe -- partly for the sake of vengeance, 
partly for real logistical reasons. Taking back the Pacific, island by
island, was more costly in terms of men and hardware than anything we 
did in Europe. (Dad lost his best friend at Guadacanal. He probably 
would have died there with him, but Dad was only 17 when they wanted 
to enlist, and his mother refused to sign. He served in the Coast Guard,
in PNG and the Phillipines. He brought back a helmet, painted it silver;
Mom used it to hold clothespins. I'll never forget the look which crossed
his face the day I asked him how he knew it was a Japanese helmet. He
told me 20 years later.) 
	As for our 'need to be dragged kicking and screaming into WWII'
frankly every nation should be so needy. One of the great tragedies of 
the post-war era is that our puffed up government _lost_ that need, and
began to regard itself as the world's policeman. 
	In regards to the UK, they suffered greatly to remain free
during the Nazi Anschlagt, much more greatly than they might have needed
to suffer, had Snivel Chamberlain not sold eastern Europe to Hitler in
Munich. Stalin likewise sacrificed his people in aligning the USSR
with the Axis early on in the game (we call it the Von Ribbentrop Pact).
Both the UK and the USSR had governments whose foolish 'appeasement' or
'containment' mentalities resulted in extra death and suffering for their
people once it became clear that the Nazi would be neither appeased nor
contained. In the face of continued Nazi expansionism the heroism of both
the British and the many peoples of the former USSR should not be denied.
Neither should the original complaisance and complicity of their governments
be forgotten. Particularly now when a similar pattern of behavior is
making itself known vis-a-vis the Balkans.
--
======================================================================
|| Holly Silva			I have nothing terribly clever to say||
|| Applied Earth Sciences	today.  You're in luck.		     ||
|| Stanford University						     ||
Xref: sparky soc.culture.usa:7073 soc.culture.canada:6243 soc.culture.british:12095