HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Steve Creps)
Subject: Confused Anti-Catholicism (was Re:      Re: Confused Catholicism)
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 16:26:26 GMT

In article <CHRISTIA%92093019434860@ASUACAD.BITNET> TOM BREWER <NOTTMB@LSUVM.BITNET> writes:
>EHHH? Please don't confuse me anymore. You say this is straight out of the
>Baltimore Catechism. Jesse tried to use that weeks ago and we were told it's
>not that authoritative. Now you use it. 

   I seem to recall that Jesse was not told that there was anything
wrong with the _Baltimore Catechism_ itself.  Rather, what was wrong
was Jesse's notion that it was _infallible_ simply because it bore an
_imprimatur_.  An _imprimatur_ is a statement by a bishop that a work
is free from doctrinal error, but the _imprimatur_ is not infallible
(i.e. the bishop or his subordinate who checked the work could have
possibly missed an error).  In fact, no bishop on his own (except the
Bishop of Rome) has the authority to make an infallible statement.

>Saint John Nuemann's catechism is the one that says specifically that only
>the Pope et. al. can forgive sins. I'm not making this up. Nuemann is making
>it up.

   If Neumann's catechism says that, it is correct, but either
ambiguous or taken out of context.  You have chosen to interpret it
incorrectly in the way that puts the Catholic Church in the worst
light, and in such a way that would be considered heresy by the
Catholic Church.  As I have said before, a more precise statement
would be that only the Pope, bishops, and priests have the authority
to forgive sins in God's name.  I wouldn't doubt that the catechism
elsewhere explains that the Pope, bishops, and priests have the
authority to act in God's name.

   Please believe us Catholics when we explain what our beliefs mean.
Otherwise all you are doing is setting up straw men.

-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
Steve Creps, Indiana University
creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: I John 3,6 & sin
From: bthurman@uncavx.unca.edu
Date: 28 Sep 92 11:01:05 -0500
Organization: University of North Carolina at Asheville
Nntp-Posting-User: bthurman

Does I John 3,6 perhaps imply that vision (heoraken) and experience (intimate
knowledge egnoken) belong to to the one who says (ho ... menon) in Him?  Do not
many attribute the force of a 'durative present' to the verb 'sin'
(hamartanei)?  Meanwhile, what does the Holy Ghost share on this with the
hearts of pious widows, many of whom cannot even read, much less suffer the
infection (or, perhaps more rarely, advantage) of linguistic subtleties?  May
one not find an awareness among them of the distinction between 'the old man
(=human) created in the likeness of the Christ' and 'the new man'?  Who sins,
the old man or the new man?
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Date:         Wed, 30 Sep 1992 16:53:16 -0400
From:         Eric James Ewanco <ewanco@MLO.DEC.COM>
Subject:      Re: Confused Catholicism

Excerpts from christia: 30-Sep-92 Confused Catholicism Tom
Brewer@LSUVM.BITNET (1548)

> > This cleansing comes through saving faith in Jesus and repentance.
> > Without repentance there is no forgiveness of sins; without forgivness
> > of sins, there is only condemnation.

> Which is it? Christ's blood or baptism? First you say baptism washes
> away sin. Now you say Christ's blood removes sin.

Baptism effects removal of sin by the power of the blood of Jesus by
participation in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ (Rom 6:3).
Baptism is the external sign; the blood of Jesus is what
soteriologically accomplishes it. Eph 5:26: "Christ love the church and
have himeslf up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing
with water through the word"  Eph 5:26. Acts 22:16: "Be baptized and
wash away your sins." Acts 2:38: "Repent and be baptized . . . for the
forgiveness of your sins." Baptism is a channel of grace by which we
receive the fruits of Christ's sacrifice.

But after baptism, how do we receive the fruits of Christ's sacrifice?
Through the blood of Christ -- quite literally, for unlike Protestants,
being cleansed by the blood of Christ is not an exercise in
visualization or guided imagery, it is a reality because we receive the
blood of Christ in the Eucharist, and so are quite literally cleansed by
the blood of the Lamb.

>  And then you say "we are really and truly righteous in God's eyes"!!!!
> Good Grief Charlie Brown! Are you now becoming a Protestant?

Wrong, Linus.  Protestant theology, at least Reformation thelogy of
Luther and I believe Calvin, stated that we are not truly righteous; we
are "declared" righteous, though in fact we are still unclean.  Luther
used the example of a dung heap covered with snow.  Protestants say they
are "covered" by the blood of Jesus -- that is, Jesus's blood hides our
sins.  Catholics say that the blood of Jesus CLEANSES us from our sins
and makes us truly righteous -- we don't merely appear righteous, we ARE
righteous.

> That means sanctification is by grace. Surely you don't mean that.

Don't know.  I may be in error using the term "sanctification" for what
I am talking about.

> And what about the Pope, bishops and priests who alone can forgive sins?

Here you are wrong.  The Pope, bishops, and priests do NOT forgive sins.
 Only God forgives sins.  The presbyterate has the power to administer
reconciliation and forgiveness; Christ alone forgives sins through the
ministry of the priest.

Eric
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Date:         Mon, 28 Sep 1992 21:25:19 EDT
From:         Lon Mendelsohn <LMENDELS@CMS.CC.WAYNE.EDU>
Subject:      Re: DEATH PENALTY- for or against?
              28 Sep 1992 09:52:15 -0500 from <superc@CONQUEST.KSU.KSU.EDU>

Shawn,

I have not come to a conclusion either way on the validity of the death
penalty, as I have seen strong arguments for it from both sides.

Shalom,

Lon Mendelsohn
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Date:         Fri, 2 Oct 1992 09:35:51 -0400
From:         Eric James Ewanco <ewanco@MLO.DEC.COM>
Subject:      Re: faith and works

Excerpts from christia: 2-Oct-92 faith and works carol nemec@FERRIS.BITNE (528)

> A thought on the discussion of faith and works, by William Booth, quoted
> in Christianity today.  From _ The Founder's Messages to Soldiers _.

You got that out of Christianity Today, I saw it in there! ;-)

I thought it was an excellent explanation;  it well says what I believe
about faith and good deeds.

Eric
From: MAM4161@RITVAX.BITNET (ANGUS PODGURNEY)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: signoff from Christia
Date: 5 Oct 92 20:47:55 GMT
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Please discontinue me from your list.
It is not because I have lost my faith, it is because I have limited space on my
    account and all the mail is rapidly filling it up.
                                        Thank you,
                                                Michael Martin
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Date:         Mon, 28 Sep 1992 23:54:51 -0400
From:         Vicky Chai <VCHAI@SMITH.BITNET>
Subject:      Songrette - Under Pressure?

(A word of caution: This song is pretty long.)


  PRESSURE POINTS

Lyin' here shakin' in my bed,
Wondrin' why this static in my soul.
Back and forth, I need a revelation,
On the edge and wondrin' where to go.
Well I'm fallin' out, fallin' out of touch now.
Should have spent more time with the Lord.
Overnight, suddenly I'm ready to listen.

Started back, several months ago,
Sliding by on a spiritual glaze.
I was blind, I didn't see it coming,
Unprepared, I lost it in the maze.
Well I've fallen in, fallen in the trap now.
Should have taken action long ago,
Should have been at His feet,
Where He said we should meet,
Resisting defeat.

Those pressure points,
Everybody has those pressure points.
And when the pressure is on
It points to where your weakness lies.

Now I see, it happens everyday.
Wastin' time I can't really afford.
Danger signs, a creeping independence,
Takes away from leaning on the Lord.
Well I've fallen off, fallen off the main line.
Need a fresh awakening in my soul.
I can never depend on yesterday's win
To carry me in.

Just because you're ridin' high,
Won't mean you always will.
The danger comes when you're standing still.

Those pressure points,
Everybody has those pressure points.
(But) when prepared, you'll watch your victory rise.


(Written by: Stormie Omartian, Michael Omartian)
(Copyright: See This House Music, '84)


"Be self-controlled and alert.  Your Enemy the devil prowls around like
 a *roaring* lion looking for someone to *devour*."  I Pet 5:8

"It is for *freedom* that Christ has set us free.  Stand *firm*,
 then, and *do not* let yourselve be burdened again by a yoke of
 slavery."  Gal 5:1


 In Christ, Who's *worthy* of
   ALL Glory,

        Vicky
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Date:         Wed, 30 Sep 1992 13:02:47 EDT
From:         Leo W <Leo_W@QM.CIRCA.UFL.EDU>
Subject:      Re>Death Penalty - for or against

Our Lord Jesus Christ was both for and against the death penalty.  Perhaps we
should follow His footsteps.

He was for the death penalty for sin.  The Lord instituted the death penalty
and willingly submitted to it.

He was against the death penalty for our sin.  He loved us.  The Lord suffered
and died in our stead, releasing us and giving us a new life, while maintaining
His standard of justice.

"God did this so that he could judge rightly and also make right any person who
has faith in Jesus" (Romans 3:26).

How many pro-death penalty and anti-death penalty Christians have considered
the cost?  How many would lay down their lives in an electric chair for a
beloved convict?  Talk about the death penalty is cheap.  With proper laws, it
would be possible to see both kinds of Christians in electric chairs,
glorifying their Lord in their deaths as they follow in His footsteps, either
submitting to the just penalty for their own sins or setting a loved one free
(dying in his/her stead).  This is the true pro-death/anti-death penalty
witness for Christ.

"No one takes it away from me.  I give my own life freely" (John 10:18).

Greater love hath no man/woman.

Yours in Christ Jesus,
Leo
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Date:         Mon, 28 Sep 1992 14:20:46 CDT
From:         Tom Brewer <NOTTMB@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Purgatory: Justice or Works?

Eric:

Quick questions (little time):

How much must the unbeliever contribute to be saved?
How many good works are enough to purify the unbeliever?
What are those good works to be judged by God for salvation?

Tom
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Date:         Mon, 28 Sep 1992 14:26:04 -0400
From:         "(Toni J. Benner)" <tjbenner@COLBY.EDU>
Subject: Re: Small group alert

Kerry, I don't think I  will have the time. I hadn't  responded because
I thought I  should have a few  weeks ago and didn't, so thought you
already knew  I couldn't manage  it. Anyway, thanks.
Toni B.
From: A16905@ITESO.BITNET
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: males vs females and God
Date: 2 Oct 92 16:54:37 GMT
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I am male and I find myself very confortable with Jesus as my lover and
Husband.

Shalom,
Memo.
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Date:         Mon, 28 Sep 1992 12:28:26 CDT
From:         Jesse Carnes <NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      CHOOSING Christ as dead men

Dear all on Christia ;

This is just a starter on the idea :

"How can a man or woman 'choose' Christ if they are DEAD
in their sins?"

Now, the problem is the old question of 'How do we put the horse in front
of the horse?'
Specifically, some people believe that we believe in order to be saved and
others say we are saved in order to believe.

I hold to the latter.
2 Corintheans 2 indicates that the unregenerate man who does not possess
the Spirit of God CANNOT receive the things that are from God.
Well, if we believe that the Gospel of Jesus and His substitutionary
deathfor sins is the Saving message from God, then HOW can DEAD
unregenerate people believe it without extrinsic aid from God?
The problem thickens as we see that Paul states also that those who
are perishing are blinded to the Gospel by the devil so that they cannot
believe it.

So, HOW can anyone believe the Gospel, much less the other things of
God, while they do not possess the Spirit of God AND they are also
blinded by the devil?

Can ANYONE who is blinded by satan and without POWER to receive Spiritual
things of God BE ABLE to CHOOSE Christ ... again is the Gospel message one
of those things of Spiritual things of God?

People do have a WILL but can it be employed when blinded and without
power to receive Spiritual things from God?



Jesse Carnes
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Date:         Thu, 1 Oct 1992 09:02:00 GMT
From:         Z_STAFF_CL@SOUTHAMPTON-INSTITUTE.AC.UK
Subject:      Further info on Mr. McELwaine's postings

Forgive the reposting, but I suspect you'd find this of interest - I recieved
it via another list.
If you remember, Mr McElwaine has posted a number of items to various lists
effectively portraying Christainity as brain-washing.


Carol L

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

From:     stephen clark <AP01@UK.AC.LIVERPOOL>
Subject:  Mr. McElwaine's activities on the Internet

I have complained to Wisconsin about the activities of the phantom poster,
Robert McElwaine, and received this answer. The best solution seems to be
to ignore him, and to ask listowners to ask him to cease and desist.

Stephen Clark
Liverpool
listowner PHILOS-L
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

     I would like to acknowledge receipt of your recent
complaint concerning materials that your Notes, Conference,
or Bulletin Board received from Mr. Robert McElwaine, one of
our students here at the University of Wisconsin - Eau
Claire.
    Mr. McElwaine's activities on the Internet closely
parallel similar activities here on campus in which he has
used every available public forum to promote his views.
Attempts to limit these activities have met with determined
and protracted resistance and litigation on his part based
upon his First Amendment rights under the United States
Constitution.  He contends that the readers of Conferences
or Bulletin Boards have no right to infringe on his right of
free expression.  However, he does acknowledge and accept
that the owners, moderators, or managers of Notes,
Conferences, or Bulletin Boards do have the right to remove
such material and to request that he not post any other
materials.  He has given assurances that upon receipt of
such a request that he will cease his activities.
          The fastest way to take care of the issue and to
prevent your Notes, Conference, or Bulletin Board from being
the recipient of additional communications from Mr.
McElwaine is to send him Email and request that he stop.
That Email should give your name and the name of the
Bulletin Board, Notes, or Conference you moderate or
control.  You should specifically state that you have the
authority to request that he cease and desist from any
further postings.  If you are not the administrator, then
you should forward this message to the individual who has
such authority and request that he/she contact Mr.
McElwaine.
     I would request that a copy of any correspondence with
Mr. McElwaine be also sent to me at CBRENNER@UWEC.EDU.   If,
after being requested to stop, he continues to send his
materials The University of Wisconsin - Eau Claire will take
steps revoke his Internet privileges.
     On behalf of the University of Wisconsin - Eau Claire I
would like to apologize for any inconvenience Mr. McElwaine
has caused and to thank you for helping us address the
problem.

Sincerely,

Charles J. Brenner, Director
Computing and Networking Services
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Date:         Wed, 30 Sep 1992 12:36:31 CDT
From:         Jesse Carnes <NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Why Did Jesus Die?
              29 Sep 1992 14:40:53 -0700 from <DRAKE@ASUCHM.LA.ASU.EDU>

Dear Mark Drake ;

My question is for all concerned ... Not just for you ... and no
I am not foisting a query towards your bodikin.


Jesse Carnes
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Date:         Wed, 30 Sep 1992 10:03:51 CDT
From:         Jesse Carnes <NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Right Standing with God?
              30 Sep 1992 08:51:52 -0400 from <ewanco@MLO.DEC.COM>

Dear Eric;

Geesum, Mowsum, Grayzum man ... just PICK one because ONLY ONE is the correct
answer.

This test/quiz thing is a thinker.
The question must be CAREFULLY examined so as not to misinterpret it.


Jesse
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Date:         Tue, 29 Sep 1992 20:05:00 EDT
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From:         Liz Moreau <EMOREAU@UMASSD.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Why Did Jesus Die?

>Question : "If the wages of sin is death and Christians die like other
>humans do, are Christians PAYING for their sins or even Adam's sin STILL?"

Indirectly we are paying for Adam's sin.  If he had not sinned there
would be no sickness, death, etc.  Although I'm sure he repented and
was forgiven and the sin was no more, there was still the result of
the sin to be paid .... cast out of the Garden of Eden.

I don't have my Bible handy to read the verse 'wages of sin is death'
in context, but I was wondering if we are talking here about spiritual
death or physical death.

As Christians, if we repent, we are forgiven but we still pay the
price sometimes.  Such as sexual immorality - could result in disease;
stealing could result in being arrested, etc.

Just some thoughts.

                                        Liz
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Via:      UK.AC.SOLENT; 29 SEP 92 16:32:44 BST
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Tue, 29 Sep 1992 16:33:00 GMT
From:         Z_STAFF_CL@SOUTHAMPTON-INSTITUTE.AC.UK
Subject:      RE: Divorce from Parents?

I read Lon's post with interest.
This case has been on TV over here.  One point that was raised was that the
natural mother abused the child and this was one of his reasons for wanting
out on a perminent basis.  Also raised was the amount of time he had spent
with foster parents when the mother had made no contact.

I don't know the truth of this case but I do wonder about the motives behind it.
1.  Are the foster parents using undue influence.
2.  Why is the mother suddenly interested.
3.  Is the child old enough to decide.
4.  Are the press making a meal out of it.

I am not a lawyer but I am aware that in a British court this would come up as
a custody case because of the way fostering works over here.

In which case, you'd have at least 3 parties contesting the case.
1. The parent
2. The foster parent
3. The child ( yes, they get a say in who they live with)  sometimes the child
    ha no representation but a judge is still obliged to consult and consider
    best interest.
4. The state - if there is an existing custody or ward of court order

As point 3 above is enshined in the 'new' Children's Act (it has been around
for about a year)  there are 2 main reactions over here.

"Well, trust the US to make a fuss, what's so special" or the "It is breaking
up the family, what do you mean it happens here"


If what I have seen is true, I think it is just the same old thing from a
different angle : child established in foster home, absent parent returns,
child settled doesn't want to leave, court goes with child's wishes and
stability.

I could be very wrong, but that is a gut reaction.

I don't think we can generalise about what is best for a child but a home
where he is stable and established and happy is sometimes the better place.
In such cases moving could be wrong.  We don't like splitting up families.
If the foster home had become his family, what is all the fuss about ?

If I have offended - forgive.  I am upto my ears in work but saw this in the
mail and have rattled off a quick response.  If any of the comments sound like
flames or me stamping on someone's closely held belief - it isn't meant that
way.


Carol L
z_staff_cl @ uk. ac. southampton-institute
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Date:         Thu, 1 Oct 1992 11:03:41 EDT
From:         Bernice Tennant <U1A9A@WVNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Heaven,

On 09/29/92 at 15:06:42 Jesse Carnes said:
>Dear Eric & Stephen ;

>From what I've seen of Romans and James, it seems that "Faith JUSTIFIES
>the man and WORKS VARIFIES the faith (as the real McCoy).

Verse unknown:  You will know them by their deeds.

>Jesse Carnes
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Date:         Fri, 2 Oct 1992 11:27:17 PDT
From:         ng910@TWINS.PNL.GOV
Subject:      Help I am confuddled....

Hello all,

	Well, I'm stumped.  I listen to people around me saying that the
Christian does not have to keep the laws of the Pent. (the 1st 5 books,
Canical law of the Jews) because of Christ.
	Yet, at the Sermon on the Mount (Mat 5: something or other, I think)
Jesus says that we are to keep all of the Law, and teach others to do the
same.  Later, Paul instructs the Church that their are only some of the
Laws - Not eating the blood of strangled animals, and a few others (sorry,
I could not find the referance, although I am sure I read it last night).
In yet other epistles, We are told Keep the law...

	It goes on back and forth like this and I am lost!!!

	Help! I really want to understand this issue.

Thanks,
Your Brother in Christ,

Dave
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