From: dnelson@icaen.uiowa.edu (David Nelson)
Subject: Re: Religion and a Denial System
Organization: Iowa Computer Aided Engineering Network, University of Iowa
X-Newsreader: NN version 6.4.19
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 15:34:36 GMT

Let me start out by saying that I left a fundamentalist Christian cult
a couple of years ago.  I'm still not finished dealing/processing
those issues, but I can share with you some of what I've figured out.
So much of the cult stuff plugs into abuse issues, so much so that
it's uncanny.  

I'm not stating that I think TJ is in a cult - not at all - but I am
noting that most churches have cultish tendencies.  And groups can
have cultish tendencies *without* being damaging.  So, one can see
cultish/dysfunctional traits in even the Roman Catholic Church but
that doesn't mean that it's necessarily damaging -- it's not an
either/or issue, but a matter of degree.

anon.95@pax.tpa.com.au (TJ) writes:
>I've been feeling quite upset over having no ( <=2 ) real friends within
>my faith. It's terribly depressing, because it is such an important part
>of my life. I pulled out my ACOA materials a little while ago, and it
>suddenly occured to me; the vast majority of people I'm seeing in church or
>other Christian fellowship are either in denial, or are not in denial but
>go into a denial mode when they're in church.

>... These are good people,
>but I wonder...

I don't know about "good" (I'll let The Naz make that call) but in my
experience a lot of church-goers are good intentioned, yet all too
human, and being so all the inner needs that create defense mechanisms
still are operative in church.

>Am I running into trouble because I'm surrounding myself with remote
>people who never want to get below the surface because they are
>unwilling to deal with their own feelings of inadequacy?

A lot of churches propogate a blame-based/shame-based system.  As
such, it is by definition dysfunctional.  In other words, if there's a
lot of blame flying about, it's bleeding *impossible* to avoid the
ACOA/codep behaviors you have noticed.

So, yes, many church members are going to be in denial and display
compartmentalized thinking and will avoid real emotional intimacy and
honesty.  Many people can't afford to admit their "sinful" thoughts
(even to themselves) lest they deem themselves "damned."

Many people join fundamental churches *because* they offer simple
answers to the complexity of modern life.  Many of those who join such
churches *already* are mentally rigid - for many of them religious
faith is an analog to alcohol for an alkie.  Many of those people
*need* to be told how to think and they need to pretend that they are
The Chosen, or whatever -- there are many motivations -- but the
generalized effect is like that of a dysfunctional family.


>a) Who do you trust, with secrets or anything? I mean, if they're in denial
>about their own feelings, even if they give me good advice they (meaning
>potential friends) will never let down their guard, so how can we build
>trust?

If these people are operating within a blame-based system, then
they're already tormented by their own "sinfulness."  They aren't
likely to welcome honesty in the form of questioning the faith or
admissions of "sinful" desires and thoughts (such as anger, lust,
doubt, envy, and other uncharitable emotions).

In short, you probably can't trust them.  

The long answer is that it's just like in the rest of your life: you
have to test people on an individual basis.  You can't assume that
they're emotionally trustworthy simply because they're in your church.
If you *do* assume that, then you are displaying the cultish trait of
"Dispensing Existence" and its accompanying hypocrisy of applying
different standards to those inside the group.


>b) Do people who are in denial not share? I.E. maybe no one's close to
>anyone. Or am I screwed up because I want to share at a deep level with
>people?

No, people in denial don't share; they run from intimacy because
opening up would reveal the truth.  A person who feels guilty can't
afford to reveal his "sin."  (I don't know why, as 1 Jn talks about
confession, cleansing, and forgiveness, but it just works that way in
a lot of groups.)

The ACOA traits are designed to *prevent* intimacy and to avoid taking
risks.  Dysfunctional systems are rigid and predictable; intimacy
demands flexibility and fosters growth.  

No, you're not screwed up for wanting intimacy - it's a sign that you
are growing/healing.  But it isn't a reasonable expectation to look
for intimacy from members of a dysfunctional system - it would be akin
to throwing pearls before swine and getting yourself revictimized.
This is much like the experience of survivors who prematurely confront
their abusers or attempt to visit parents after they themselves have
been growing - things like change and pointing out that emperor is
naked are most unwelcome.  Such a person would get a strong backlash
in the form of shame and (verbal and non-verbal) messages that say
"shut up!  Be perfect!"


>Click. I think one of the reasons I'm so mad at them is because I feel the
>"remote-niks" are like my dad. Or maybe I'm mad because they're not
>smotheringly abusive like my mother. Or...?

One of the attractions of church is the authoritativeness.  Churches
often promise answers to life as well as the comfort of being relieved
of responsibility (i.e., just obey the pastor and he'll be accountable
to God for your soul).

And *I* got mad because they promised me "love" and a heavenly family,
but never delivered.  They promised acceptance, but delivered shame,
rejection, and isolation - all those lovely emotions I grew up with in
my family of origin.


>c) Where are all the healthy evangelical Christians? I mean, there have to

Beats the livid, green shit out of me!

>be *some*. But that question makes me wonder if they're all fine and it's
>healthy for them to avoid someone like me. No. Jesus didn't come for the
>healthy, He came to heal the sick and set the captive free. We're supposed
>to be Christ's presence in the world now. Without being codependent, we
>need to be willing to reach out to others, and that includes fostering an
>attitude that it's ok to need help (excuse the theological ramblings).

I agree, Jesus (as well as Smith Wiggleworth and countless others)
came to heal the sick.  One answer I came up with was that they are
(many of them) faking it - hoping that *acting* righteous will somehow
imbue them with righteousness.

But the short answer, IMO, is that they *aren't* healthy
psychologically if they avoid intimacy.  Who should a believer find
*more* trustworthy than a brother or sister in Christ?  No one, I
should think - but I never found it to work that way, even with
Christians from other churches.  Behind the facade of "Christian"
charity, I found a great deal of judgmentalism, perfectionism, and
their Siamese triplet, blame.  No one is quicker to criticize than
someone who feels guilty and inadequate himself.  <sigh>


>d) Am I making myself sicker by going to church meetings and pretending
>everything is all right and making small talk and all when everything is
>not all right?  Why isn't there anyone I feel I can share with?

It sounds to me like you're feeling the constriction that comes with a
dysfunctional system - you're possibly finding new inner truth about
yourself but the church group non-verbally requires everyone to "don't
worry, be happy!"  I don't know if that's 'sicker' or not - but you
might be happier if you can find friends who will validate your real
self instead of requiring of you a consistently problem-free facade.

I don't think it's possible to grow when being bombarded with shaming
messages. 


>I'm very confused. Please excuse if this is all an unholy (hah!) mess;
>I'm trying to be healthy. BTW, this isn't all the fault of others. I've
>covered up quite well. Of course, when I have shared in the past, I've felt
>2' tall afterwards, getting the "of course we care, don't bother me" look,
>and feeling like I should have worked this al out years ago.

I disagree if you're saying that it isn't the doing of others.  A
great deal of your confusion *does* lay with the system itself - they
say one thing, but do another.  Or, at the very least, the Bible says
one thing, but they're not doing it.

I know the feeling well - confusion and shame.  Is this how you want
friends to treat you?  (I'm sure not.)  IMO, love (*real* love) is a
package deal and if someone loves me, they're going to listen to me
and validate my feelings, even if those feelings include unpleasant
things like unbelief, anger, grief, lust, fear, and confusion.
Certainly, one doesn't discuss inner feelings with just anyone, but I
would personally want my church fellowship to include *someone* who
cared enough to talk it out!  I've seen a lot of church members who
will be patient for about six months, and after that they seem to
expect you to "grow up" and be a trouble-free, *contributing* member. 

I have since chosen to make my spirituality a personal thing - a
hybrid/synthesis of other beliefs including many of the principles
stated in the Bible.  My experience has been that more people in 12
Step meetings *live* their beliefs than those in many churches.
That's not a blurp in favor of **Anonymous groups, but just stating
where I found some sincere support for what faith I've managed to keep
in the aftermath of my cult experience.


**********************************************************************
*     Any attempt to impose        David L Nelson (Screaming Fist)   *
*     your will on another            dnelson@icaen.uiowa.edu        *
*     is an act of violence.           anon-1454@twwells.com         *
*        -Mahatma Gandhi               an1096@anon.penet.fi          *
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