From: opus@cbnewsc.cb.att.com (robin.g.kim)
Subject: Re: Flight Sims Inferior on Amiga?
Organization: AT&T
Distribution: na
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 18:45:58 GMT
Summary: Falcon 3.0 vs. Fighter Duel (LONG)

In article <1992Sep5.022108.6449@gn.ecn.purdue.edu> seifert@gn.ecn.purdue.edu (Michael S. Seifert) writes:
>In article <yury.02sm@bknight.jpr.com> yury@bknight.jpr.com (Yury German) writes:
>>In article <1992Aug29.213046.24952@gn.ecn.purdue.edu> seifert@gn.ecn.purdue.edu (Michael S. Seifert) writes:
>>>Fighter Duel?  This is a poor example of an amiga flight simulator and should
>>>not be used in the same breath as Falcon 3.0.  Although the null modem play
>>>(its one saving grace) makes for a lot of fun, the lack of graphics is 
>>>reminiscent of old C-64 sims.
>>
>>Mike I must strongly disagree with you on that!!!!
>>
>>Figher Duel is the best flight simulator I have seen. If you are looking
>>for pretty pictures then you better go look somewhere else... but the
>>words simulator describe reality. And Fighter Duel is the best SIMULATOR I
>>HAVE SEEN!
>>
>>	And trust me I have seen plenty of them.
>>	If I understand correctly Jaeger software is going to include
>>scenery and things like that for people who want to sacrifice frame rate
>>in their 2.0 version.
>
>OK, lets try and get some things straight... To be a flight simulator,
>you must simulate flight.  (Hey, I'm not a supra-genius because of my
>stunning looks...)   To do this, I feel its important that the player,
>pilot, or whatever should feel like he's flying.  With NO graphics, their
>is no simulation.  Yes, the flight model is realistic, but this is the 
>least of the simulations duties.  F-18 had a terrible flight model,
>but when flying around the bridges and the bay, it felt like you were
>actually flying and diving, etc.   Fighter duel feels far too remote...
>it feels like a video game.  

I disagree.  See my comments below.

>AND the opponent sucks.  Sucks, sucks,sucks....  What youre left with is
>a nice flight model, and a very nice two player, over-modem game.

I agree completely.

>Falcon 3.0 has a flight model as realistic as can be created for a jet still
>in operation.  Yes, its a bit slow, but the way hardware progresses (about
>1000 times faster than software), its in for the long haul...  Fighter
>duel isnt in the same class.  Accept it.
>
>mike seifert, supra-genius

I used to play Fighter Duel, before I sold my A3000.  It was one of my all-time
favorite games, having played many since I bought my A1000 in 1986.  I now
have a 486/33 (yes, I'm a slimy, stinking, defector), and play Falcon 3.0
and Aces of the Pacific.

As a total package, Falcon 3.0 simply blows away Fighter Duel.  Its depth is
unbelievable, and its scope is greater as well.  Though Falcon 3.0 is
(in MY opinion) a better overall game, I still really miss Fighter Duel.
Why?  The accurate flight model.  Falcon 3.0 has an excellent flight model,
but it only kicks in above 300 knots.  Below that, the flight model is
pretty lame.  Aces of the Pacific's flight model doesn't begin to compare
to Fighter Duel's, though its graphics are far superior.

Mike, I don't think we really have a DISAGREEMENT, here, just a difference in
taste.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but to you, a "simulation" must have enough
atmosphere so you can suspend your disbelief and think you really are there.
Fighter Duel doesn't do it for you, because the graphical cues are lacking.
I suspect the majority of the flight simulation market feels the same way
you do, relegating Fighter Duel to a relatively small niche.

For me, the flight model, resolution, frame rate, and sound effects are
more than enough to make me feel like I'm really flying, especially against
a human opponent (Hi Jeff!).  Carrier landings are also a lot of fun.  The
only other game that really gave me a feel for what it's like to slowly
descend with a nose up attitude to a touch down due to a high angle of
attack is Birds of Prey.  Even then, the feel of Fighter Duel is much more
fluid, and less "quantized."  By that, I mean there are no stable equilibria;
you must constantly make tiny adjustments.  Though I have never flown an
airplane, this is what I imagine it would be like.

Fighter Duel Pro is supposed to be out soon, which is supposed to include
more scenery, more airplanes, lots of nice bells and whistles, and
significantly better enemy AI.  An IBM version may or may not be planned.
If one comes out, I'll certainly get it.

Both Fighter Duel and Falcon 3.0 have their places in the market.  The latter
has a much bigger place, but it doesn't completely subsume the former.  The
few things that Fighter Duel has that Falcon 3.0 doesn't seems to strike
a chord with some people, hence the games's relatively small but devoted
following.

Rob
ihlpy!opus@att.att.com