HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: wce@hogbbs.scol.pa.us (Bill Eichman)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: ASTRAL PLANE
Date: 15 Sep 92 20:48:10 GMT
Organization: The Heart of Gold BBS, Lemont PA

cal@otter.hpl.hp.com (Colin Low) writes:
> There has been a lot written about it, and my experience tallies closely with
> written accounts. It has occurred sporadically and with increasing frequency
> since I was ~20. The initial step is that I `wake up' in my sleep, often
> as a result of dreaming lucidly. Sometimes I find I am paralysed, and in the

A good report, Colin-- though perhaps I only call it good because it 
describes well experiences and states which I recognize...;-)

My experience, however, is that the so-called "magickal astral 
projection" almost never is as clear and 'real' as the 'lucid dreaming' 
variety of obe-- I base this on my own work and studies I've done on 
other experienced practicioner's work with "astral projection".

Are they the same thing? I don't think we have enough info to know.

Any _Proof_ experiences in your 'lucid' OBE's? That is, bringing back 
information you shouldnb't have been able to access, or anything like 
Monroe's "pinch"?

>  
> The reality isn't one-for-one with the real reality. Some people make strong
> claims about being able to observe one-for-one, and I see no reason to doubt
> them, but I find my experience filled with intrusive elements which I
> don't seem to be able to discriminate at the time. I can manipulate the
> reality by willing, and on occasions I've been able to make different bodies
> for myself, make things appear etc. I'm continuing to experiment, and sometim
> I have a go at visiting people.
> 
I understand completely, and my experiences tally with yours. 

With so-called "magickal astral projection", the 'reality' through which 
you travel is even odder than in the 'lucid OBE'-- in a sense, it's more 
solid than the "strange, realer-than-real, but dreamlike and changing" of 
lucid OBE, in it's own peculiar way, but at the same time is much more 
insubstantial and hazy.

Both types are very dreamlike, in their own peculiar ways.

> 
> I must emphasise that no amount of desperate willing has been of any help
> in procuring OBEs. I'd suggest the following, based on what I've read and
> my own experience:
> 

Thanks for the effort you made in writing those descriptions. 

Later, Bill
From: v085r6qm@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Erin D Markle)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Dreams of Lucid type
Date: 10 Sep 92 04:58:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41


      Another flood of thought from a guy with a wicker
dam:
      Does anyone work with lucid dreaming in their
practice? I've had a slight increase of the number of my
lucid dreams as of late. (perhaps from the time I've recently
spent in the sky with diamonds...) When I'm mid-dream I
experince the total VR type enviornment control thing. Though
the context of the dreams are still very normal night-time
dramas with typical dream symbols and so forth, they seem
to be very different than the L dreams I used to experiance.
The difference I think, is not in the dream state, (in which
I love flying,) but in the waking state. I've become much
more lucid at "normal" moments of solitude. Sometimes if I'm
walking somewhere in the waking state where I had spent 
L dream time, the sensory recall I experince is striking.
I don't want anyone to think that I'm talking of the mastery
of flight because of some cool dreams, but because of the
-near- complete recall, and the nature of lucid dreaming,
it seems that the same sense of control might possibly be
of use to magickal practice. 
     Of course this brings us to the controversial problem
of intentionally induced lucid dreaming techniques. Has
anyone had success? I haven't been trying at all, but I'm 
going to start. The object, of course, being greater 
sensory recall. I know that coming back from a heightened
state often requires something of a formal recognition of
your return, (a major potential pitfall with hallucinogens,)
but somehow waking up and striking a gavel doesn't seem
like a very good option to me. AGAIN, anyone have a working
technique?

                       - Friend of Erin, who is in fact,
                                           not Erin.

(I don't know if SUNY @ Buffalo would take exception to 
my using her account. What the hell, it's in the fan now
if it ever is... my name is Erich. That's a load off)
From: billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: power points in france
Date: 4 Sep 92 22:27:55 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA

kc3u+@andrew.cmu.edu (Kerwin Yap Chua) writes:
: The theory that I have heard is that there is a protective net around
: the earth which has several *dents* in it.  These dents actually reach
: down to (and possibly into) the earth, forming the said power points,
: not all of which are marked (like Stonehenge, the Pyramids, etc.).  The
: net is supposedly made from some form of energy that sensitive people
: can percieve (and manipulate? I have a hard time dealing with all of
: these monuments and the like precisely built upon these points).  my
: information is rather vague, and I'd like to be enlightened along with
: everyone else if someone knows what the dickens I'm talking about.

There is a lot of controvery about power points, much less ley lines.
I do not recall reading about various monuments being built on any
power points. I do recall reading claims that some of the monuments
are built on, or near, ley lines.

What would be the purpose of this protective net? Is there supposed to
be some sort of supernatural thingy out there that would otherwise have
a jolly time psychically zapping the talking apes that enhabit this planet?

Bill
From: cal@otter.hpl.hp.com (Colin Low)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1992 08:42:35 GMT
Subject: Re: Shielding <was: Re: Empathic question>
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Laboratories, Bristol, UK.
Newsgroups: alt.magick

Amanda Walker writes:


>So, does anyone else out there use tensor calculus as a magical tool?

Good grief! ONLY when my shields are differentiable manifolds.

As tensors are geometric objects with mathematically tractable behaviour
under coordinate transforms, I prefer to to use mathematically intractable
objects on non-differentiable (but continuous) manifolds - keeps the
opposing Black Lodge of psycho-geometricians busy while I do a curvilinear
transform on their own shields and slip in at the poles.

As far as attacks go, non-abelian groups never fail - your opponent tries
to apply the inverse to your operation, and ends up somewhere different
from where they started.

Should be some smileys somewhere, but I used them up over the weekend.

Beam me up Scotty.

Colin 

P.S. see the Smalltalk Blue Book for real magical insights.



Organization: Sophomore, Physics, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Date: Mon,  7 Sep 1992 10:44:53 -0400 
From: Shawn Clayton Knight <knightster+@CMU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Shielding

>So, does anyone else out there use tensor calculus as a magical tool?

Actually, yes.  I visualize the shape of the continuum and how my Will
influences the various fields in that continuum ... being a physics
major this requires less of a leap of faith than many ... I visualize
magic as the "fifth [sixth, seventh] basic force.

-shawn

Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson)
Subject: Re: The pentagram
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 22:05:15 GMT

Tagi@cup.portal.com (Tagi Mordred Nagashiva) writes:
: 
: Dart:
: 
: I get the feeling that Inverted, Point Down, Upright, and Point Up, are
: ALL fairly easy terms to understand, and I HOPE that everyone reading 
: this group
: knows what all of them mean.  If not, inverted means point down, and upright
: means point up.
: 
: 
: Response:
: 
: This is what I dispute as both fallacious and ignorant.  What if I take
: the 'correct' position to be point-down?  Then 'inverted' means point-up,
: and so on.  It is an implied fundamentalism where none exists.

Agreed. It also implies a dualism that does not necessarily exist.

Bill
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: shaman@cix.compulink.co.uk (Leo Smith)
Subject: Re: anger
Reply-To: shaman@cix.compulink.co.uk
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1992 21:09:38 +0000

If you can face the reflection of your own anger you may use it
safely to do whatever you want.

If you can't - youl'd better be good then hadn't you?

Leo
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: lib1p@rosie.uh.edu (Tammy Stark Blandino)
Subject: Re: Psychic Defence. Help needed
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: University of Houston
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 02:28:00 GMT

In article <199209130331.AA01592@intercon.com>, amanda@INTERCON.COM (Amanda Walker) writes...
>lib1p@rosie.uh.edu (Tammy Stark Blandino) writes:
>> NO ONE CAN HURT YOU UNLESS *YOU* LET THEM!!!!!
> 
>Not counting physical attack or coercion, I agree.  However, having been on 
>the receiving end of physical assault, I assure you that there are indeed 
>people who can and will hurt you without your permission.

This was in response to a non-physical attack.  Stay with the story.

NO ONE CAN HURT YOU UNLESS *YOU* LET THEM!!!!!!!  I too have been
on the receiving end of attacks. (non-physical)  Boy do I have a story
to tell
(but at another time).  That one sentence is your strongest defense
against such attacks.  SOME THINGS HAVE TO BE BELIEVED TO BE.
By believing that no one can hurt me I build up my defenses so that
no one can hurt me.  Their attacks bounce off my shields add back
at them (three fold).  NO ONE CAN HURT ME....UNLESS....my defenses
have a weakness.  That weakness is believing they can have a weakness

This has been a very powerful tool for me.  I have not had *ANY*
problems since I learned this routine.


Amanda, this person was looking for help versus psychic attack.
My statement was in consideration of that requested for help.
Please keep to the subject.

And by the way, even in physical attacks....NO ONE CAN HURT YOU
UNLESS YOU LET THEM.  Note the conditional.

B*B

Tammy
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: chambers@hal.emba.uvm.edu (Christopher A Chambers)
Subject: A question about reasons for Magickal effectiveness
Organization: University of Vermont, EMBA Computer Facility
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1992 21:05:53 GMT


  I have recently been reading the book _Liber_Kaos_, by Peter J. 
Carrol. I found the chapter on Chaos Magick Mathematics to be 
very interesting and thought provoking. Basicly, he states that 

  M = G * L * (1 - A) * (1 - R)

  Magick = Gnosis * Magical Link * (1 - Conscious Awareness) * 
           (1 - Subconscious Resistance)

  Pm = P + (1-P)M^(1/P)

    Pm = Probability of event occuring considering magical effects
    P = Standard probability of event occuring

  I was wondering if anyone else had read this book, And what their
opinions were.

  Although I find the theory interesting, I have allways followed
the Silva (Superficial or not, I still found it to be invaluable) 
concept of Faith = Desire, Belief and Expectancy as the effectiveness
of an operation. It has allways seemed to be very acurate in my personal 
experience. 
  Also, Although letting myself get too attached to an outcome has indeed
seemed to sabotage my effectiveness, I have allways been aware of what
I was trying to accomplish (no sigils or strange encoded mantras) which
would imply an (1-A) factor of about .1 which should completely negate 
all effectiveness. But, it has been my experience that this has not 
been so.

  To conclude, I am just asking for other peoples opinions, and suggesting 
that the nature of what is needed for an effective magickal operation
would make a good topic of discussion.


-- 
   ####################################################################
   |        Christopher A. Chambers         | All that we can not see |
   |       (chambers@hal.emba.uvm.edu)      | we call invisible.      |
   |    Computer Science Graduate Student   |   -- The BUGGLES        |
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: joshua@coombs.anu.edu.au (Joshua Geller)
Subject: Re: power points in france
Organization: Computer Services Centre, Australian National University
Date:  7 Sep 92 13:36:47 GMT

eburke@aludra.usc.edu (Kethry) writes:

>>It's funny that someone brought up the cathedral sites in France.  I've
>>been following this conversation for a little bit and was about to ask 
>>if there was anything going on in the sites.  

these geomantic sciences did survive more-or-less intact in europe 
into the so-called 'middle ages', as did most ancient science 
(though a lot was only known after being retransmitted into
europe through arabic translations). the great age of cathedral
building dates from the time when carious dominicans and franciscans
were heavily involved in esoterica generally so....

as an aside, things didn't start get really bad for diverse religions
and magickal types (in europe) until the albigensian crusade.


>[visions in rheims]

>asked my teacher about it all she said was,"Hmm, I figured that would happen,
>thanks for telling me."  I just wanted to know a little bit more about it...
>Thanks....

your teacher is probably just trying to appear all-knowing. 

josh

Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: jasonp@cunix4.Prime.COM (Jason R. Pascucci)
Subject: Josephus
Organization: Prime Computer, Inc.
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 19:02:56 GMT

Hi, kids. 

Does anybody have significant knowledge of a Royal Jewish bible scholar 
named Josephus (Approx)? From my minor checking, he was a liason to 
Nero at one point.

Anyways, the story is like this:

As many of my good stories tend to start off with....I had a 'Dream',
about three weeks ago. 

I don't recall all about the dream, but one part is VERY vivid.
A Virgin was harmed (or something) and was being helped by,
in my mind, a St. Joseph. (No, we didn't do introductions,
this is the name which springs to mind...most likely due to my
RC background...). 

The bad guy, Josephus, was walking toward the girl, as
Joseph was trying to pick her up and carry her to (what
was most likely) safety. This Josephus had all the makings
of a b-movie monster (mottled, brown, stiff-legged walking, 
limped). He walked past me, and I wish I could say that I 
opened a tower of light, and used the force to erect an immobile
barrier between Josephus and his victim. I didn't. I
reached down from behind him, and held him back by his testicles,
(In my defense, this was a move I learned in Karate 
years back, which predates my magickal 'training'.) 

He was, as many of us would be, stunned, and it appeared
to gave enough time for Joseph and the Virgin to escape. 
However, I felt a boney hand reach up from behind me,
and do the same thing to me. (Silly me for not watching
my back.) It was Death, and he said exactly one word,
in a low, resounding voice he always seems to have. "Gone.".

And then I woke up, in a slight sweat, with my testicles
pulled up into my body cavity. Bleah. 

Anyway, three weeks later later, Labor Day Weekend. I decided, spur of 
the moment, to spend part of the weekend in Maine. I wandered by a used
book shop, and was walking around, looking. I stepped past a glass 
case, and came to a screaching halt. Little warning lights
went off in my pattern-matcher, and I looked closer. There was,
in a two volume set, with the title on the spine: Josephus. Sigh.
I had the proprieter open the doors, and pull out the book.
I skimmed through it, and was nearly ready to buy it,
when I looked at the price. Ouch. The truth is, I didn't
feel it a necessity to buy it, but it's existance amused me. 
(I didn't end up buying it...I'm hoping somewhere down the line
to pick it up in a much less pristine format.)

So, that's the story. As with all my stories, I'm not looking for 
interpretations of my dreams, please. If you feel you absolutely must 
say something, email me...I'd have to have everybody see
my dirty laundry, like my unresolved oedipal complex...oops. Anyways...

What I am looking for is more information about this Josephus
character. 

Thanks. 

-- 
Jason R. "I've stopped being suprised at anything." Pascucci 
jasonp@primerd.prime.com
From: friday@netcom.com (Carol Anne Ogdin)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Shielding
Date: 7 Sep 92 16:58:08 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)

In <199209070444.AA10298@intercon.com> amanda@INTERCON.COM (Amanda Walker) writes:

>... I came to an interesting realization.  In magic, a 
>primary limitation is that you can only accomplish what you can 
>conceptualize.  After all, you can only do on purpose what you can hold in 
>your mind in the first place. ...

>The sensory mode(s) and particular models you use are irrelevant; how well 
>you can use them to focus your will and attention is what matters.

I'm not quite so sure sensory mode(s) and models are irrelevant.  What you've
discovered is that people's metaphors are often self-limiting...and the meta-
phors they chose are often governed by those very sensory mode(s) and parti-
cular models.  Part of what I use magick for is to expand my own repertoire
of possible models, for personal flexibility is one of the keys to success
in virtually any endeavor.

>So, does anyone else out there use tensor calculus as a magical tool?

Gee, I've never considered it.  I'm just a dumb high-school dropout who never
learned how to *spell* "tensor calculus," much less figure out what it IS.
But, then, on the other hand, have you ever used The Toliliquey as a magical
tool?
-- 
---   ---   ---   ---   ---   ---   ---   ---   ---   ---   ---   ---
    - Friday -                 "How're ya doin', ole lady?"
      friday@well.sf.ca.us     "Hey, it's another good day above ground!"
      (Carol Anne Ogdin)
From: eddie@hermes.oit.unc.edu (Edward M. Averett)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Shielding
Summary: Commentary, geometry, models, personal perspective
Date: 7 Sep 92 19:40:10 GMT
Organization: Voodoo Gnostic Church of All Worlds, Reformed

In article <199209070444.AA10298@intercon.com> amanda@INTERCON.COM (Amanda Walker) writes:
>The sensory mode(s) and particular models you use are irrelevant; how well 
>you can use them to focus your will and attention is what matters.
>
>So, does anyone else out there use tensor calculus as a magical tool?
>
I have a strong tendency to use mathematical concepts, especially geometrical,
when describing some of what I do.  But then I also use chemical, physic(al),
and poetical just about as much.  My college major of computation theory as 
viewed from a mathematical perspective rather than a CS one (mostly) also has
contributed to some of the ways I explain magick.  

The "sensory modes(s) and particular models" are indeed irrelevant.  When 
doing most of my work these days I don't use them at all anymore.  This makes
it doubly difficult to stop, go back, look at something in a new way, and
try to translate or describe it to others in a meaningful manner, but it does
have other advantages.  When I do use tools these days, it's almost always
as an extension of what I'm doing "behind" the tools, that act as indicators
to anyone I might be doing magic with. This can include myself on those
occasions when I feel that (for a variety of reasons), I want or need to 
be more explicit and overt about what I'm doing.  Externalizations
can be a good method of discipline, and reviews of the basics are always in 
order.   
  
So what do I do when I'm not using a particular model?  Good question. As 
soon as I stop to examine the process, I modelize it.  Can't help it.  Any 
model I pick then becomes dependent on the environment I'm trying to model
*to*.  This is one of the reasons I don't really draw concrete distinctions
between magick (however you spell it), paganism rituals, shamanism, taoist
sorcery, faith healing, modern physics, psychology, or whatever your furry 
little heart can imagine.  

Ultimately, I perceive myself as living in a 
magical universe, all bound up together.  What this means, to me and to 
others, is highly dependent on who I am talking to, and which universe I 
am trying to model.  Since I'm not a solipsist, and I do believe in the 
objective reality of "other minds/souls" at least, and I don't believe in 
an "absolute concrete reality" in general, this has interesting effects on
how I relate to the world at times. (In a vain attempt to forstall certain
angles on this, I certainly don't walk in front of cars, and please don't
bite me on the leg.  I believe in my physical reality to the extent that
it is pragmatic to do so, this doesn't mean that I believe that it operates
as a "higher level of truth" than my metaphysical reality (whatever either
of those two things are, you know -))).

			-eddie@legba.oit.unc.edu 
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe)
Subject: Re: The pentagram
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 21:11:02 GMT

Tagi@cup.portal.com (Tagi Mordred Nagashiva) writes:

>Lots of nice postings about pentagrams [and Easter?? :>].  A note to
>the unwary:

>'Inverted' and 'upright' imply a 'correct' orientation of the star.
>If you want to be seen as a fundamentalist or an ignoramus, please
>use these terms. ;>  Otherwise, I suggest what some others have taken
>to use: 'point-up' and 'point-down'.  Adios!

Well, I read Tarot before I did any serious reading on CM, and long before I
came up with the idea of using the inverted pent for grounding.  Because of all
that Tarot experience, it will always be most natural for me to use upright and
inverted.  Somehow, I don't think that that makes me either fundie or ignorant,
just pragmatic.  It seems to me that demanding that everyone conform to ones own
personal whims of language is much more fundie than my terms.


              Merry meet, merry part, merry meet again,
                               Br'anArthur

Queer, Peculiar, and Wyrd! :-)

******************************************************************************
Newage is hypoallergenic spirituality--
it's for people who are allergic to the word religion.
                                   --Jon Jay Obermark
From: ijd@hplb.hpl.hp.com (Ian J Dickinson)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Dreams
Date: 8 Sep 92 08:26:29 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Laboratories, Bristol, UK.


>>>>> On Sep, 7, Tygress wrote:

> Do most people think of Dreams as Prophetic?  Usually only
> recurrent ones?
I have had precisely one prophetic dream.  About a year ago, I dreamt one
night of a young girl (about 8 years old) standing on the side of the road
as I went past on my bike.  The next morning, as I cycled to work, I passed
the particular spot that I had dreamt about.  The girl was there.  She was
standing about 2 metres away from the exact spot, and there was a car
missing from the dream scene, but it was unmistakably the same girl.  The
whole thing only lasted a few seconds.  Not much as prophecy goes, but it
freaked me at the time!  I don't have recurrent dreams as such, but I do
dream recurrent themes.  Recently I have been dreaming of death and
rebirth.  My money's on these being symbolic, not prophetic this time ;-)

> Is it possible to have a Teacher reach you thru Dreams?
Yes.  And the teacher is ... yourself.

> Curiously, -- Laura

Blessings,
Ian.

|Ian Dickinson    HP Labs Bristol (Knowledge Based Programming Dept)   England|
|Email: ijd@hplb.hpl.hp.com    | Enough if something from our hands have power|
|   These opinions are mine,   | To live and act and serve the future hour    |
|  and not (necessarily) HP's  |                                 - Wordsworth |
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson)
Subject: Re: You REALLY aren't going to like this.
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 04:30:43 GMT

usr77@pil.UUCP writes:
: 
: Write Rogue X on this issue, not me, unless you have connections in
: Sewickley, PA, in which case contact them... wouldn't it be nice if
: the Xtians planning this attack ran into an ambush?

No. But it would be nice if the trouble-makers, with press following
them, couldn't find anyone.

Bill