From: thietaniemi@cc.helsinki.fi
Subject: Re: Bilingualism - a good cause!
Organization: University of Helsinki
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 14:07:13 GMT

In article <1993Jan8.123946.20522@dcs.qmw.ac.uk>, mmh@dcs.qmw.ac.uk (Matthew Huntbach) writes:
> In article <1993Jan7.164927.1@cc.helsinki.fi> thietaniemi@cc.helsinki.fi writes:
>>
>>In article <1993Jan7.113100.28196@dcs.qmw.ac.uk>, mmh@dcs.qmw.ac.uk
>>(Matthew Huntbach) writes:
>>> In article <1993Jan7.083616.15949@jyu.fi> ryyti@jyu.fi (Jarmo Ryyti) writes:
>>>>Matthew Huntbach (mmh@dcs.qmw.ac.uk) wrote:
>>>>So you compare the asians of London with the russians of Estonia?
>>>
>>> Well, if I were to advocate treating Asians in the UK in the
>>> same way that Russians in Estonia are being treated, I would be
>>> accused of being a racist and fascist.
>>
>>You are yourself accusing Estonias of being racists and fascists.
>>And even without any argument. Which is a pity.
> 
> I was very careful to say "Estonia", meaning the government,
> rather than "Estonians" meaning the people. Clearly it would be
> wrong to say that individual Estonians are necessarily guilty
> of the prejudfice shown by their government.


Which prejudice? Empty accusations. Which is also a pity. 


>>The Russian language was the leading language in Estonian Socialist Soviet
>>Republic. The Soviet Union came to the country as an occupator and
>>the most important political offices were given to Soviet-educated
>>Soviet citizens, sometimes to sovietized Estonians.
> 
> Yes, I can very well understand why Estonians might feel
> bitterness against Russians, but I do not see this as a
> justification for reverse discrimination.


Which reverse discrimination? More empty accusations. Which... well.

 
>>And the position of Russian language in Estonia is still a strong one.
>>It's the Estonians that have received in last years the right to
>>use Estonian in all situations in everyday life, like in all shops,
>>visiting doctor and in railway stations.
> 
> Yes, and I would fully support and defend this right, and the
> right of *anyone* to use whatever language they like, that is
> precisely what I am arguing about. If there are a substantial
> proportion of people who are native to a country (and by
> "native" I would suggest born in that country, or normally
> resident in that country and accepted as citiznes of it) whose
> mother tongue is one other than the mother tongue of the
> majority, then I would suggest that the basic human right that
> everyone is treated as an equal means that they should have the
> right to use that mother tongue on all occasion, 


This right is granted in very few countries, unfortunately.
If you add the condition "on all occasions", then nowhere.


> and not to be
> dsicriminated against in any form because that is their mother
> tongue. We might argue over what is a "substantial
> proportionm", but I wouldn't put it above 10%.


Discussion is rather boring when concucted in this manner. I am
also against discrimination. You should at least give some evidence about
alleged "discrimination" done by the Estonian government before
accusing them of anything.

I have dealt with the existting progressive Estonian language legislation in 
this newsgroup in a detailed manner. If necessary, I re-post something.

with best regards
the observer
Tapani Hietaniemi, Universitas Helsingiensis 
                   urbs fennorum