HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: gklein@uoft02.utoledo.edu (Gary Klein, bear at heart)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: OCA launches _new_ petition drive
Date: 13 Nov 92 01:37:39 GMT
Organization: Univ of Toledo

In article <1992Nov9.065740.15794@u.washington.edu>, niteowl@stein.u.washington
   .edu (Dan Dreiberg) writes:

> 	Well I think that everyone should sign this petition. In fact
> I think it's such a neat idea that everyone should sign this petition
> at least 20 or 30 times. And why limit it to signing your own name? 

     Paraphrasing the words of the reknowned former mayor of Chicago,

"Sign early & sign often"
--
                                    "Not your average Leathered Librarian"
Gary Klein,   Business Librarian,  (Univ of Toledo)           * * * * 
PO Box 12650             Toledo, Ohio    43606-0250            *   *   
(w): 419-537-2629        fac2813@uoft01                          *   
(h): 419-243-2740        fac2813@uoft01.utoledo.edu       B4 t+ w- g s+ k
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: crombie@iisat.alt.ns.ca
Subject: Gay Sailor Reinstated
Organization: Public Access UNIX
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 05:01:32 GMT

First saw this on the evening news on a Detroit TV station, where the
announcer treated it like it was the worst travesty of justice he'd
had to tell everyone about this week...

Don't tell anyone where ya got this...

        LOS ANGELES (AP) _ The Pentagon said Tuesday it will reinstate
 a homosexual sailor to comply with a federal judge's order.<
        The Pentagon decision came shortly after U.S. District Judge
 Terry Hatter in Los Angeles ordered the navy to reinstate Keith
 Meinhold of Palo Alto, Calif., to his previous position by Thursday
 morning. He said that if the navy refused, it would be banned from
 filing future motions in the case.<
        In Washington, Pentagon spokesman Pete Williams said the navy
 has agreed to reinstate Meinhold and will swear him back into the
 navy on Thursday.<
        Hatter on Friday issued a preliminary injunction requiring
 the navy to reinstate Meinhold, 30, to his job at Moffett Naval Air
 Station south of San Francisco while the judge considers the merits
 of the case.<
        But when Meinhold showed up at the base Monday, he was turned
 away.<
        In reaffirming his order Tuesday, Hatter said, ``This is not
 a military dictatorship. It is not the former Soviet socialist
 republic. Here, the rule of law applies to the military . . . even
 to the commander-in-chief.''<
        Hatter said there was a likelihood Meinhold could prove his
 claim that the ban violated the Constitution's equal protection
 clause and provisions that prohibit punishment of a particular
 class of people.<
        The Canadian military recently said that homosexuals will
 no longer face discrimination in the Armed Forces. The Federal Court
 also ruled that restrictions on gays in the military are contrary
 to the Charter of Rights.<
        <

-- 
Kevin Crombie		Public Access Unix
UUCP:  {dalcs,ulowell}!iisat!crombie
From: misek@solbourne.com (Steve Misek)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: What to do about Colorado
Date: 6 Nov 1992 16:02:53 -0700
Organization: Solbourne Computer, Inc., Longmont, CO  USA
NNTP-Posting-Host: marvin-gw.solbourne.com

 ::  > Were folks in Colorado complacent?
 :: 
 :: Another possible difference: Colorado is much more sharply divided,
 :: politically, into urban liberal sophisticates clustered around Denver
 :: (self-styled, anyway) and rural conservative ... uh ... is "rubes" too
 :: inflammatory?  Denver is the city that gave us two, count 'em, TWO liberal
 :: presidential candidates in one election year (Gary Hart and Patricia
 :: Schroeder).  The rest of the state, however, has a lot of people
 :: driving pick-up trucks with shotgun racks, if I may stereotype slightly.
 :: 
 :: Any Coloradans or Oregonians care to comment on this?
 :: 

sure.  If you want to generalize:
In general, Boulder and Denver are very liberal.
Colorado Springs is military/government contracts.
Pueblo is industrial (old steel mills)
Ft. Collins, well, uhhhmmm, is not very describable.
Greeley accidentally got stuck in the '50's.
Mountain communities:
	either are resorts (anything goes)
	or mining communities (depressed economically)
Western slope is just quiet, western values.

All of these communities are glued together by the small towns inbetween.

Its very very difficult to generalize about Colorado.  Those people who
come from other states usually comment about how friendly we folks are.
I know lots of people who still don't bother to lock their cars or homes.
Shopkeepers are generally very chatty.  Boulder folk (of which I am one)
are still accused of being stuck in the '60s... (when we move the office
next week my commute reduces to a quick mountain bike ride down the canyon).

steve.
misek@solbourne.com
misek@parcplace.com
Newsgroups: soc.motss,soc.bi
From: shawn@thor.atd.ucar.edu (Shawn Copeland)
Subject: Re: Boycott of Colorado
Organization: National Center for Atmospheric Research, Remote Sensing Facility
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 19:19:13 GMT

In article <5NOV92.11183097@enh.nist.gov> aberson@enh.nist.gov writes:
>In a previous article, shawn@thor.atd.ucar.edu (Shawn Copeland) wrote:
>>	Shawn B. Copeland
>>	National Center for Atmospheric Research
>
>Wow!  Someone from NCAR.  I don't know if you are a meteorologist,

Nope.  Electrical Engineer.

>but some friends and I have been trying to get together an informal
>group of LGB meteorologists

Well, unfortunately I don't fit into the LGB category.  I read
the group soc.bi mainly because my wife and some close friends
are bisexual, and because I am interested in commentary about 
things like amend #2.

Good luck in your search for LGB meteorologists.  I'm sure it's
only a matter of encoutering the right people.

>I have let my bosses know that I will not be able to travel to Colorado
>to do any work with NCAR because of the vote.  They have been supportive.

Very good.  I hope that a large boycott effort can be mounted, even though
it will have adverse effects on the economy I live in... the majority of
the voters here voted for amend. #2 and I would like to see some retribution
applied.

>Take care,
>Sim
-- 
	Shawn B. Copeland
	National Center for Atmospheric Research
	NCAR  Mail Stop MAR, P.O Box 3000, Boulder, CO 80307-3000
	Internet: shawn@thor.atd.ucar.edu
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: fisher@ncselxsi.uucp (Chuck Fisher)
Subject: Re: Military info needed
Keywords: military
Organization: National Computer Systems, San Jose, CA  95131
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 20:21:22 GMT

In article <1992Nov10.214659.11764@cs.uwp.edu> powilait@cs.uwp.edu (John Powilaites) writes:
>I'm looking for any information regarding the ban of gays & lesbians from the
>armed forces in the United States.  Specifically, there was recently someone
>reinstated at a base in Florida by some judge, but was refused entry at
>the base and was transferred to Washington.
>Thanks in advance for any info that you have to offer.
>Please, if possible send the info in email to powilait@cs.uwp.edu.

You're probably refering to Keith Meinhold of Moffett N.A.S. in
Mountain View, California.  Keith had come out last spring on ABC TV
and was terminated from the US Navy a short time later.  He filed suit
and a Federal court judge in Los Angeles issued an order to have Keith
reinstated at his old job.  Keith was refused re-entry at the gate
with the court order in-hand on Monday.  His attorneys promptly sought
a contempt of court citation from the judge.  The net result is that
the "top brass" are allowing Keith to report to duty on Thursday.

Local media have given this case a lot of coverage, including Clinton's
expected executive order rescinding the ban when he is inaugurated in
January.

Chuck
-- 
Chuck Fisher                                        (800) 359-7997 Work
ncselxsi system administrator                       (415) 964-2819 Home
uucp:  ...!netcom!ncselxsi!fisher
Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.politics.homosexuality,co.politics
From: gary@colossus.cgd.ucar.edu (Gary Strand)
Subject: Re: Colorado Amendment 2: The First Fatality
Organization: Climate and Global Dynamics Division/NCAR, Boulder, CO
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 05:39:51 GMT

tc> Tom Christiansen
gs> Gary Strand

gs> nor should refusing to hire a (gay/black/veteran/woman/Jew/Japanese-Amer-
    ican/Catholic/grandmother/bachelor) for a job that I have.

tc> Are you sure??

  Yep.

  I don't see the reasoning behind the "discrimination is bad except in these
  cases: whites, males, straights, non-handicapped, &c" as legitimate. Either
  all discrimination is bad, or all of it isn't bad. Whether or not the state
  should be brought in to resolve these issues is another matter entirely.
  And, of course, the cost of the resentment created in non-protected groups.

--
Gary Strand                      Opinions stated herein are mine alone and are
strandwg@ncar.ucar.edu            not representative of NCAR, UCAR, or the NSF
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: may@hpcesma.ce.hp.com (Elaine May)
Subject: Re: Colorado tactics
Reply-To: may@hpcesma.ce.hp.com
Organization: HP Corporate Engineering - Palo Alto, CA
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1.4 PL6]
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 20:19:05 GMT

Michael Agney (kanga.caltech.edu!magney) wrote:
: I know that, were I not the rational being (:-) that I am, I would 
: be somewhat frightened by a full-barrel attack on my state just 
: because "a bunch of faggots" (not my opinion, repeat, NOT MY OPINION) 
: were a little displeased by the results of a referendum.
We are not "a bunch of faggots a little displeased by the results of a
referendum".  We are decent, upright citizens who are deeply offended
by the efforts of an ignorant few to legislate bigotry.  Some of us happen
to be gay or lesbian.  Others of us have gay or lesbian family members
(sister, brother, mom, dad, son, daughter) or co-workers and friends.
Others of us wonder when these bigots will come after us because we
don't believe the same way they do.  

: Education is better 
I agree completely.  Hope you are able to learn something from this exchange.  
--
Elaine May                               Hewlett-Packard Corporate Engineering
may@hpcesma.ce.hp.com		         Palo Alto, California
------------------- Hatred and Bigotry are immoral ---------------------------
From: solovay@netcom.com (Andrew M. Solovay)
Subject: Re: Lesbian Myths (was: Re: Gender Parity)
Organization: International Irony League -- Death before smileys!
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 02:34:10 GMT

In article <1992Nov11.233919.23073@tc.cornell.edu> shore@dinah.tc.cornell.edu (Melinda Shore) writes:
>[]
>Well, we know that Solovay is a misogynist and an idiot,
>so any statistics he coughs up should be filtered accordingly.

Wow! I'm famous!

You forgot the bit about "and he poisons the wells", but I'll
assume that was an oversight.
-- 
Andrew M. Solovay    "I've learned a secret about keeping house... after
                      four years, the dust doesn't get any thicker."
                                        --Quentin Crisp
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson)
Subject: Airfare (was Re: Good news, Good news, Bad news and revenge)
Organization: Madison Academic Computing Center, UW-Madison
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 92 13:39:30 GMT


In article <1992Nov5.071618.10645@netcom.com>
rich@netcom.com (Richard Poppen) writes:

>Upshot:  If you can go somewhere else for a comparable price on the same
>airline, you can move your trip and lose only $25/person.

Certainly true with United.  When I had to abort my planned trip
to SF in September, my agent told me to just hang onto the ticket,
which in effect becomes a coupon worth $25 less than I paid for it,
usable as cash toward any trip with United for up to a year.

-- 
Jess Anderson <> Madison Academic Computing Center <> University of Wisconsin
Internet: anderson@macc.wisc.edu <-best, UUCP:{}!uwvax!macc.wisc.edu!anderson
NeXTmail w/attachments: anderson@yak.macc.wisc.edu  Bitnet: anderson@wiscmacc
Room 3130 <> 1210 West Dayton Street / Madison WI 53706 <> Phone 608/262-5888
From: black@sybase.com (Christina Black)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Huzzah!
Date: 4 Nov 92 17:44:34 GMT

Well, I'm trapped behind a slow news feed, so I'm going to spend a few
days rejoicing over the election results while reading lots of
pre-election jitters on motss.  Sigh.

But . . .

WE WON!  I'm particularly ecstatic -- I'm now represented by an
African-American Democratic congressman (Ron Dellums, a long-time
progressive stalwart), two Democratic woman senators, and a Democratic
president and vice-president.  California voters rejected some heinous
welfare cuts, though other state propositions didn't go as well.

There are now an African-American woman and a Native American man in the
senate.

Measure 9 went down.

Not everything's perfect, but I'm an awfully happy camper.

Maybe democracy *does* work.

-- Chris
black@sybase.com
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: mdrayton@sr.hp.com (Mike Drayton)
Subject: Re: Moonshine, the election, and you
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Santa Clara Division
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1.1 PL5
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 23:40:46 GMT

Jess Anderson (anderson@macc.wisc.edu) wrote:
> 
>   We *are* planning to get more of it from you between
> now and then, too.
> 
> -- 

      Pay, Melmon, Pay!

Mike Drayton      mdrayton@sr.hp.com       Hewlett-Packard Co.
                                           Santa Rosa, California
From: dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Colorado's Amendment 2
Date: 5 Nov 92 09:15:15 GMT
Article-I.D.: spdcc.1992Nov5.091515.6836
Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting, Cambridge MA

In article <1992Nov5.021230.29953@macc.wisc.edu> anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson) writes:
>Heil Himmelmac, the antipode: "I work for a living; I don't think."

Well, there's plenty of evidence for the latter.  Why should we
trust his say-so on the former?

-- 
Steve Dyer
dyer@ursa-major.spdcc.com aka {ima,harvard,rayssd,linus,m2c}!spdcc!dyer
Xref: sparky soc.motss:47327 alt.politics.homosexuality:7132 co.politics:1903
From: shore@dinah.tc.cornell.edu (Melinda Shore)
Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.politics.homosexuality,co.politics
Subject: Re: Colorado Amendment 2: The First Fatality
Date: 13 Nov 92 00:09:04 GMT
Organization: Cornell Theory Center

In article <1992Nov12.221645.25826@ncar.ucar.edu> gary@colossus.cgd.ucar.edu (Gary Strand) writes:
>  My ideal world would contain no such protections for anyone. If you want to
>  fire me because I'm white, male, and het then that's your right. If I want
>  to fire you because you're female, gay, bi, a poor dresser, whatever, then
>  that should be my right.

Again, easy for you to say.  As a white male, you're pretty
much guaranteed not to encounter that kind of discrimination.

>  The man who committed suicide wasn't a teenager, and I would be hesitant to
>  use reasons for teenage suicides as proof of some sort of fault with society.
>  Teenagers commit suicide for puppy love, because they have bad skin, because
>  they don't get good grades, because Dad didn't let them have the car, and so
>  on. Teenagers are, for the most part, so emotionally immature and insecure
>  about themselves that they can commit suicide for incredibly bizarre reasons.

They do, indeed.  But there are patterns, and such a large
percentage of young people apparently killing themselves in
distress over sexual identity ought to at least give you
pause before you dismiss it.  Gay people are treated incredibly
badly in our culture, and if you doubted it before consider
Colorado's passage of Amendment 2 and the number of people
who voted for Oregon's Measure 9.  Teenagers are particularly
insecure and when you consider the limited exposure teens have
to real gay people in the context of the consistently negative
light in which gay people are portrayed, you can't seriously
claim that realizing that you're gay as a teenager would not
be a source of tremendous anxiety.
--
           Hate is not a family value.  Boycott Colorado

       Melinda Shore - Cornell Theory Center - shore@tc.cornell.edu
From: harris@gallium.cs.unc.edu (Trey Harris)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Gay Sailor Reinstated
Date: 14 Nov 92 02:27:23 GMT
Organization: The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill

In article <1992Nov11.220327.15209@spdcc.com> dyer@spdcc.com (Steve
Dyer) writes:
>In article <1992Nov11.181717.19012@draco.macsch.com> Bryan J.
Blumberg <bjb@macsch.com> writes:
>>     The hypocracy continues since Pete Williams is the gay
>>assistant secretary of defense.
>
>No, he's just a spokesperson.  He's also a civilian.

The press usually attributes him, "Pete Williams, Pentagon spokesman,"
but he _is_ in fact an assistant secretary of defense.  And yes, he is
a civilian, but so are Dick Cheney and the other assistant secretaries
of defense.

>P.S.: Did anyone catch Clinton's V. Day speech in which he _said_
>	he'd issue an executive order revoking the military's ban
>	on gay people?

Yes, but I did see one thing that I wondered about.  In my local paper
(the Durham _Herald-Sun_) President-elect Clinton was quoted as saying,
"I don't think some destructive behavior should disqualify people.  My
position is we neeed everybody in America that has a contribution to
make."

This doesn't seem to jive with other things I have heard Clinton say
about the issue. He's never said that homosexuality is "natural," but
"destructive behavior" is something I've never heard him describe it
as.

Does anyone have the full text of his speech?  I certainly hope that
they quoted wrong or out of context.

Trey Harris
--Stranger in a Strange Thread!
From: laura@hoptoad.uucp (Laura Creighton)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Social Democracy
Date: 5 Nov 92 13:54:25 GMT
Reply-To: laura@hoptoad.UUCP (Laura Creighton)
Organization: Nebula Consultants in San Francisco

One of the problems with laws designed to fix social problems
is that there is no review of them.  I'd like a constitutional
ammendment which requires all laws to be passed with a
mandantory date, which could be less, but could not be longer than
10 years to review.

People are pissed about discrimination.  People pass AA laws.
AA laws do not fix discrimination, while tons of people
rest secure in sanctimonious guilt-ridding that they have
done something.  Any real solution languishes unheard.
The reasons that AA has not worked  are not addressed.
People who dislike AA are assumed to be racist.  Meanwhile
a large fraction of the poor Black community, not helped
by AA shoot each other.  The solution is a *War on Drugs*.
(Poverty and racism isn't enough of a burden for Blacks 
to bare -- they are all crazy drug users as well.)

The whole idea of a ``war on drugs'' is stupid.  But the
users and sellers of drugs, knowing that there was was
declared on them, decided, quite reasonably, to arm
themselves.  So more people die, and the solution is
to spend more money on the ``war on drugs''.

Never is there any evaluation of whether the policy works.

If you oppose the drug-war then you must be a drug addict,
you cannot be objecting to a policy because it does not
work and costs a ton of money.  No review.

Provided people who were well-intentioned started a policy
it is impossible to kill it when it prooves to be useless
and costly.  The people who oppose the useless and costly are
all held up as ideological jerks... and we stagger along.

Get review of all laws.

Then we can see if laws we passed to do some social good
did any.  Or were just well-intentioned failures.

-- 
    Since Ryan White was buried in April 1990, his grave has been vandalized
    *more than* four times.

    (this news courtesy Phil Paxton ipwp400@indycms.bitnet)

Laura Creighton 
toad@toad.com
hoptoad!laura
From: raffin@fhr.ma30.bull.com (Patrick Raffin)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Colorado Addresses
Date: 6 Nov 92 00:01:32 GMT
Organization: Bull HN Information Systems Inc.

[this is my own, French, non-English speaking but in-the-USA-since-3-months
 point of view]

If I may post something here .. ("We've all grown up in the United States")

About Clinton:

 I'm happy that you elected him. I hope he will do for the U.S. GLB people
 what Mitterrand did for us in France in 1981 (abolishing discriminating
 laws, lowering age of consent from 18 to 15, ...). Some of Clinton ideas
 seem almost socialist (health care, peace corps, ...): for me, this is
 a Good Thing.

About Colorado: what a sad thing... And if Clinton doesn't succeed well
 enough, in 4 years, perhaps there will be the same backlash than what
 will happen in France this spring: after 12 years of socialism, people
 are tired (both voters and politicians), the economic results are not
 as good as they could be, so the right wing is likely to win the next
 elections. In the meantime, socialists are afraid to lose even more
 votes, so they postpone all new measures such as domestic partnership.
 To make things even worse, in France, the only gay weekly newspaper,
 Gai Pied, has just stopped its publication; and France Telecom, the French
 telco, is unplugging "obscene" gay Minitel services, for "moral" reasons. 
 If Clinton doesn't win his economic battles, the same things could happen
 here; and then there could be more than just one "Colorado"... 

So, fight back now ! Enjoy the beginning of a new President to obtain as
 many civil rights laws as possible, before it is too late. In France, the
 election of Mitterrand made it that GLB people had nothing more to fight for
 (I simplify things), so they got dis-mobilized.. until AIDS. And now,
 ACT-UP is the only organization left to fight for us in France.
--
Patrick RAFFIN, raffin@fhr.bull.com 
  __       Just a French tourist,
  \/       doesn't speak English, nor Unix
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: Charlie Fulton <charlie@isis.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Colorado tactics
Organization: Ctr for Advanced Rsrch in Oppressive Binarisms
X-Useragent: Nuntius v1.1
     <1992Nov04.212119.11492@ux1.cts.eiu.edu> <cornell.720911311@vivaldi>
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 15:52:38 GMT

In article <1992Nov4.205811.2937@PacBell.COM> 
Rod Williams, rjwill6@PacBell.COM writes:
>Seems to me that all LGB employers in Colorado should
>dismiss their heterosexual employees forthwith.

I don't think that playing into the "homosexuals-
discriminate-against-heterosexuals" lie will
accomplish anything.

If the amendment were worded such that "sexual
orientation" itself was insufficient cause for
a discrimination suit, then these victims of
heterophobia would have no legal recourse.  That
would be a hoot. As we all know, that loophole
unfortunately doesn't exist.

Charlie
From: markm@ogicse.ogi.edu (Mark Morrissey)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Twice Fucked (Colorado gays)
Date: 10 Nov 92 22:49:23 GMT
Article-I.D.: ogicse.45618
Organization: Oregon Graduate Institute (formerly OGC), Beaverton, OR

In article <1992Nov10.163430.10754@panix.com> mara@panix.com (Mara Chibnik) writes:
>
>And how come nobody thought of flaming _me_, huh?  (Oh, sorry;
>that's a different thread.)

I wish I could remember the exact words (and I am far too lazy to go
look), but I was left with the impression that Mara had said that OR:9
was measurably worse than CO:2 and that the other article said that
CO:2 wasn't so bad when compared to OR:9.  I prefer that both are vile
and evil, but that OR:9 goes further in its vile, evil agenda.

I know that it is asking too much, but if we could all watch our
phrasing for a while so as not to make it look like Colorado got a
good deal in comparison to OR:9...

Words count.  It was the words that did in Measure 9, not the intent.
And that's what hurts.

--mark
--
Mark Morrissey           One Hatred to rule them all.  One Hatred to find them.
markm@cse.ogi.edu        One Hatred to bring them all and in the darkness bind
                         them.  In the land of Bigotry where the Shadows lie.

Newsgroups: soc.motss