HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jeffo@uiuc.edu (J.B. Nicholson-Owens)
Subject: Re: A4000 Specs? Who knows.
Reply-To: jeffo@uiuc.edu (J.B. Nicholson-Owens)
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1992 07:26:41 GMT

David Meiklejohn writes
> Flexibility means being able to add either SCSI or SCSI-2 on either a
> Zorro II or III card to the system. The user gets to decide what sort of
> HD interface they want, what performance they want, and how much they
> want to pay.  Remember the complaints that the SCSI in the A3000 is only
> SCSI-1?  As I said,  giving people freedom of choice is what
> flexibility is all about.  All you really want on the motherboard is
> the lowest common denominator, which for hard drives is IDE. 

If that is flexibility, why not go back further into technology and use  
some even more ancient format?  People who are in the market for this  
A4000 are probably professionals who are interested in things like video  
or sound.  These people have money and for them having to shop around to  
get a simple SCSI-2 capability is a hassle.  I think it's nothing more  
than a cop out in the old 'stretch the dollar even further' tradition that  
Amiga hardware developers know so well.

It worked with the Amiga 1000, barely, because it was new and aimed at the  
mass market.  HAM graphics, an incredibly ugly hack to get around the fact  
that faster chips for video should have been used to overcome the fact  
that only a certain amount of data could be grabbed from memory in a  
cycle, is an excellent example of this.  It's ingenious only in that it  
makes the most of the shoddy resources at hand.  If I'm going to get  
something to use for professional quality video, I would want things like  
24-bit video everywhere, all the time, no tricks, no gimmicks.  HAM and  
other video tricks like it (including that totally unusable high-res HAM  
[you can't multitask with it!  It goes against the very nature of the  
machine!  What a dumb idea.]) should be trashed for real video output.

SCSI-II is where the action is at in terms of high-quality hard drives  
that are available everywhere.  IDE was nice years ago, but now it's a  
has-been.

Flexibility is nice, but a system that isn't competitive won't even be  
considered by professionals as anything but a toy.
-- 
-- Jeff (jeffo@uiuc.edu)
-- no NeXTmail please
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: das9674@usl.edu (Stephenson Daniel A)
Subject: A4000 not in States?
Organization: University of Southwestern Louisiana
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 18:57:58 GMT

I called the Amiga dealer in town and asked 'Do you carry the Amiga 4000,
and hwo much doe sit cost. '

The guy at the other end of the line said 'Huh? The what?'
I said' The Amiga 4000'.

At this point he groaned and said that he wished magazines didn't get
people hyped up about new products.  He said that he would expect it for
a long time - perhaps a year.  He said that only VERY recently was the
040 A3000T made avaialable to him.  He said there WERE selling in 
Europe, but that it took a good while for them get get FCC approved in the
US.

So, how many US Amigans gonna rush out and get their A4000s now?
The dealer suggested 'You could go to Europe and get one but...'

Andbody hear about this?
-- 
*Dan Stephenson   das9674@usl.edu  
*
* "To conquer death, you only have to die,..."                   
*                             -Jesus , from _Jesus Christ Superstar_
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: ccb8m@uvacs.cs.Virginia.EDU (Charles C. Bundy)
Subject: Lots of code?
Originator: ccb8m@onyx.cs.Virginia.EDU
Organization: University of Virginia Computer Science Department
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 23:26:44 GMT

jerry@connection.prospect.com (Jerry Shekhel) writes:

>mikeh@starnine.com (Mike Haas) writes:
>>>
>>>As sophistication goes up, so does the chance of bugs.  Are you rational
>>>enough to see this?
>>
>>Sure, so I can tell how sophisticated my OS/2 program is by how
>>many bugs it has.  Okay.
>>
>
>That's a moronic comment, Mike.  Greater sophistication implies greater
>code size, which in turn implies a higher chance of bugs.  It doesn't work
>backwards; take a logic course.

Had to comment on this :)  Jerry, Jerry, Jerry ... If greater code
size implied a higher chance of bugs, why do we use High Level
Languages?

   1) HLL's have a one to many lines of code generation facility,
      whose premise is:

   2) Reducing programmer errors through machine generated, verifable
      code.

Your 'logic' fails, because the # of lines of code does not imply
human introduced bugs, (libraries/toolkits..etc... have to be taken
into account).  Also, depending upon the programming methodology
in use, QA/program correctness should be verified before a
SINGLE line of code is written, (Check out E. Dikstra).  I realize
that many companies don't practice software engineering, but that
doesn't excuse the lack of discipline.  Therefore your comment to
Mike is moronic, Jerry.  (As an aside check out the aerospace
industry where MILLIONS of lines of bug free code are busily keeping
fly-by-wire vehicles/probes/satellites etc... humming along on
critical missions.  And YOU think OS/2 is complicated? Hahahaha!)

>>>
>>>1)  Make sure you know what you're talking about or your posts will
>>>    degenerate into threads of correction after correction.
>>>    I'm not saying you don't entirely know what you are talking
>>>    about, just there are some things that are in error.
>>
>>What bogus information have I conveyed?  When I'm guessing, I
>>say so.
>>
>
>What bogus information?!  Practically everything you've said, especially
>the stuff about what's impossible, overly expensive, overly buggy, overly
>bloated, etc., on PC's.

IMNSHO, you are either pretty biased or playing devil's advocate too
much yourself.  'Practically everything'  Hmm don't you flame back at
people for not coming up with 'concrete' evidence when they make
these kind of sweeping remarks about YOUR drivel?  

Charles C. Bundy IV
ccb8m@Virginia.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: das9674@usl.edu (Stephenson Daniel A)
Subject: Re: The BOOK that will CHANGE YOUR LIFE
Keywords: book, paper, wood biproducts, gerbils
Organization: University of Southwestern Louisiana
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 02:28:37 GMT

Gawd that was funny, Dan.  It sound like a cross between those
Time-Life books and an ad for Dianetics. :-)
-- 
Dan Stephenson                                           das9674@usl.edu
" BERLIN WALL FALLS.  3 BORDER GUARDS LOSE JOBS.  CLINTON BLAMES BUSH! "
        -George Bush, '92 Republican nomination acceptance speech
From: kuch@reed.edu (Jerry Kuch)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: SCSI Vs. IDE?
Date: 6 Sep 92 00:21:04 GMT
Article-I.D.: reed.1992Sep6.002104.11590
Organization: Reed College, Portland, OR

In article <65330@cup.portal.com> thad@cup.portal.com (Thad P Floryan) writes:
>In article <1992Sep5.020858.11399@gbrmpa.gov.au>
>storage@gbrmpa.gov.au (FTP Storage A/C) writes:
>
>|  In article <copes.715597537@pride> copes@pride.cs.curtin.edu.au (Simon Cope)
>|  writes:
>|  >
>|  >BTW, last week I read a comparison test between 14 486/50's.  They all ran 
>|  >around 400-500k sec on the Hdisk tests
>|  
>|  What a crock of shit, my 386/33 with IDE pulls around 850k/s.
>
>What a pathetic piece of shit (the 386/33); my 68020/20 with SCSI "pulls"
>1.5Mbytes/Second tested on 50MB and 100MB files.

Be fair now.... who built the mechanisms?  What types of drives are we 
talking about here?  In general, on equivalently fast mechanicals, SCSI
seems to be faster on long file reads than IDE...  IDE sometimes wins out
on smaller files though.

But.... in the final analysis... you're right.  850kB/sec is okay, but it's
hardly anything to get really hot and bothered about.

-- 
Jerry Kuch (t-gerldk@microsoft.com) | "Sic Gorgianus Allos Subjectatus Nunc."
  "I was wrong to play God.  Life is precious, not a thing to be toyed with.
   Now take out that brain and flush it down the toilet." - Montgomery Burns
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: ggiles@cie.uoregon.edu (Gregg Giles)
Subject: Re: The Reason Why A3000 Owners Are MAD!
Organization: University of Oregon Campus Information Exchange
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 92 02:49:14 GMT

In article <BuLAt2.310@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG> mike@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG (Mike Smithwick) writes:
>>
>P.S. I originally bought my C-64 for $625. Maybe I should sue the bastards
>and get my money back.

   And I paid $599 for my bare-bones Amiga 500 some years ago. Funny, I don't
feel used that they now cost $299. I sold it and then upgraded. Simple. If you
don't have the money to upgrade, you don't have the money to upgrade.
   Just remember people (not you, Mike <grin>), when you bought your Amiga,
there was no contract with a clause that said: "Commodore shalt supply you
with fair, free, significant upgrades." It's a business, not a charity.

-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gregg Giles (Dynamix, Inc.)                 BIX: ggiles 
All opinions expressed are my own.          Internet: ggiles@cie.uoregon.edu
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: ggiles@cie.uoregon.edu (Gregg Giles)
Subject: Re: Commodore Announces CD Solution Promotion
Organization: University of Oregon Campus Information Exchange
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 92 18:50:41 GMT

In article <1992Sep11.163752.9329@news.iastate.edu> barrett@iastate.edu (Marc N Barrett) writes:
>
>   Some prophet you are.  When Commodore makes a bad decision like this, of
>course I am going to flame it.  This policy sucks.

   As much as I hate to do this in public, here goes:
   Marc, it is my considered opinion that you are a bozo. I've been following
.advocacy for a couple of months, and in the last week, you've truly outdone 
yourself. If you have nothing positive to say once and a while, SHUT UP.
   Yes, Commodore does things every now and then we think are beyond stupid -
even for Commodore. Yes, the Amiga is not where most of us would like it to
be. But Commodore has to face fiscal reality, and Barrett-economics isn't going
to make their problems go away. 
   So stop getting up and flaming everything that you don't like, especially
on a worldwide forum. Take some pills and get a life before you have to start
working in the business. It'll do you a world of good.


-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gregg Giles (Dynamix, Inc.)                 BIX: ggiles 
All opinions expressed are my own.          Internet: ggiles@cie.uoregon.edu
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: danaf@lib108.its.rpi.edu (Frank R. Dana Jr.)
Subject: RE: New Product Opinions
Reply-To: danaf@rpi.edu
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy, NY.
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 14:37:52 GMT

(In response to the discussion on A4000 slots... I don't feel like quoting and
hand-deleting 10000 lines...)

Or, how about this... since the A4000 slots will probably be mounted on a
daughterboard, which will fit somewhere in the tower (god, I HOPE it's a
tower...), how about Commodore sells it SEPARATELY? You could simply put in
two daughterboards... one standard equipment, with the Video slot, 4 Amiga 
slots, whatever, then a SECOND daughterboard (if you get the urge...) with 
either more Amiga slots, some PC slots, etc...

Iz goot?

-- 
/////////////////////////[[[[[[[[[[]]]]]]]]]]\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
(718)             (212)                        (516)             (518)
=======Amiuser============Frank R. Dana, Jr.============Doc Ami=======     
--------My opinions rarely reflect those of any sane person,----------
	   living, dead, or undead... that's gonna CHANGE.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: mlelstv@specklec.mpifr-bonn.mpg.de (Michael van Elst)
Subject: Re: Interlace video (Was Re: PC (OS/2) / Amiga debate)
Organization: Max-Planck-Institut f"ur Radioastronomie
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1992 00:29:29 GMT

In <1992Sep6.221221.25652@ctr.columbia.edu> jerry@connection.prospect.com (Jerry Shekhel) writes:
>I'm not sure what you're trying to say here, but my friend has a nice
>1024x768 multi-sync monitor, and his SVGA card can display that resolution
>in interlaced or non-interlaced mode (as can most SVGA cards).  We tried it
>both ways.  You couldn't convince either of us in a million years that the
>interlaced mode is easier on the eyes; in fact, the non-interlaced mode is
>rock-solid, and the interlaced mode is practically unbearable.

You saw a probably 60 Hz non-interlaced vs. a 30Hz interlaced display.
A 60Hz interlaced display would have been even more stable.

Regards,
-- 
Michael van Elst
UUCP:     universe!local-cluster!milky-way!sol!earth!uunet!unido!mpirbn!p554mve
Internet: p554mve@mpirbn.mpifr-bonn.mpg.de
                                "A potential Snark may lurk in every tree."
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: davidme@qdpii.comp.qdpi.oz.au (David Meiklejohn)
Subject: Re: Interlace video (Was Re: PC (OS/2) / Amiga debate)
Organization: Qld Dept Primary Industries
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1992 02:17:17 GMT

In article <18cd50INN57u@matt.ksu.ksu.edu> nan@matt.ksu.ksu.edu (Nan Zou) writes:
>
>I thought I'd mention that both XGA and 8614/A are NON-interlaced at
>640x480 (standard VGA resolution), but interlaced at 1024x768 (for reasons
>beyond my comprehension).

Bandwidth.  Non-interlaced requires that the dot clock go twice as fast.  Think
about it - it's not easy to double the amount of data going out in the same
amount of time, so the solution, forced by the technology of the time, was to
halve the effective frame rate.

>The ATI 8514/A clones fixed that.

That, and improved monitor technology - we were buying SVGA cards that could
do 1024x768 non-interlaced before monitors that could handle it were cheap
enough to be worth buying.


-- 

David Meiklejohn                  | Internet : davidme@qdpii.comp.qdpi.oz.au
Computer Systems Officer, QDPI    | Fax      : +61 70 92 3593
Mareeba, Australia                | Voice    : +61 70 92 1555
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: cpca@marlin.jcu.edu.au (Colin Adams)
Subject: Re: Upgrade path from A3000 -> A4000? Ask at WOC!
Organization: James Cook University
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 92 02:48:17 GMT

In article <92257.115643JBK4@psuvm.psu.edu> <JBK4@psuvm.psu.edu> writes:
>Not pin compatible but what about installing it on a ZorroIII Card or through
>the CPU slot.  I'd even go for a mother-board swap if it wasn't outrageously
>priced.

It isn't going to work in a Zorro III board without software to remap
accesses to the custom chips through the MMU.  Even then the card would
have to produce its own video output to the monitor. 

Can't everybody stop moaning?  We knew the new machines were coming and
that there was going to be a *very* good chance they wouldn't work
without a new motherboard, you had your chance to try and sell an 
old machine.

>JK

-- 
Colin Adams       Honours Student - James Cook University of North Queensland
  "And if I seem a little strange, well that's because I am." - The Smiths 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: suopanki@zombie.oulu.fi (Heikki Suopanki)
Subject: Re: More AmigaWorld Lies
Reply-To: suopanki@phoenix.oulu.fi
Organization: Unixverstas Olutensin, Finlandia
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 23:31:19 GMT


>>>>> On 5 Sep 92 00:29:22 GMT, marv@pnet51.orb.mn.org (Marv Gordon) said:

> For your information mark EUROPE consists of more than just FINLAND!

Really?  I never figured that out....

--
   Heikki Suopanki          *     Mother stands for comfort
   suopanki@phoenix.oulu.fi *     Mother will hide the murderer
   University of Oulu       *     Mother hides the madman
   Finland                  *     Mother will stay mum
From: TomK@cup.portal.com (Tom R Krotchko)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: Re: Re: J Miner sleeping w/ Steven Jobs
Date: Tue,  8 Sep 92 17:46:39 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
  <65237@cup.portal.com> <53034@dime.cs.umass.edu>

>>Never been any such thing as an infinite loop. Never has been, never will be.
>
>        On the contrary:  at any given moment, there are an infinite number
>of infinite loops being executed.
>
>        I dare you to prove me wrong.  Nyaaahh.

There's an infinite number of monkeys in the next room who are sending a letter
with a proof.

TomK@cup.portal.com
Tom Krotchko
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: skip@tacky.cs.olemiss.edu (Skip Sauls)
Subject: Re: aga chipset for amiga
Organization: University of Mississippi, Dept. of Computer Science
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1992 04:27:35 GMT

In article <1992Sep16.033923.15200@newshost.unh.edu> ggg@kepler.unh.edu (Gregory G Greene) writes:
>>>How many games out there use HAM mode?  I know of Pioneer Plague and
>>>Links.  Are there that many more?
>>
>>I'm not much of a game player (due to my horrible skills more than anything
>>else :-) and can't answer your question.  But I would like to know why do 
>>you care if there are any games that use HAM mode?  You have stated that
>>you have a nice PC and that you prefer the games on it to those that you
>>have seen on the Amiga, so why should games on the Amiga concern you?  The
>
>Can't a person ask just for general information?  Anyways, the 
>Amiga concerns me because I was hoping for an affordable system from CBM.

Sorry if I sounded like a jerk, but after all of the BS that MB has
spewed over the last few days my trigger finger on my flame-thrower
is a bit sensitive.  I guess I took your original post to be flame
bait as it seemed you were worried that there might be more HAM mode
games for the Amiga than VGA games for the PC.  I wish that were the
case, but I guarantee that it is not.  :-(

>What happened to all the rumors of the mid-range machines?  Are they 
>vaperware?  The A4000 is nice, but a low priced mid-range AGA system would
>have appealed to a much larger audience.  IMHO

I agree entirely, and I'm sure that Commodore will be addressing this
issue in the near future.  The best non-official explanation that I've
hear is that the ROMs are not ready and therefore it would be impossible
to introduce an MMU-less 020 machine right now.  I believe that C= has
designed the A4000 with lower-end lower-cost models in mind.  While it
is a really nice machine, it is more like the high-end of a series of
low-end AGA equipped Amigas.  Hopefully we'll know more soon.

>							G.Greene

Skip Sauls
skip@tacky.cs.olemiss.edu




Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: nwickham@nyx.cs.du.edu (Neal Wickham)
Subject: Re: A4000 Specs? Who know
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 92 19:35:24 GMT

In article <1992Sep9.093539.27793@news.iastate.edu> barrett@iastate.edu (
Marc N Barrett) writes:



>In short, my expectations at least are for simply common sense. I don't
>know about others, but my demands and expectations are not unreasonable.


Gosh damn he's funny.  His "damands and expectations"!  :)  Anyone care
to guess what Marc's ideal woman would be like. ...maybe one of them
mailorder brides from the Philippines;  if she could lift and carry
two hundred pounds that is.  :)   ...and perhaps be well trained in the
art of foot massage.  Then maybe... just maybe!!


                            
                                  NCW


Xref: sparky comp.sys.amiga.advocacy:23332 comp.sys.amiga.hardware:14981 comp.sys.amiga.misc:13543 comp.sys.amiga.emulations:3840
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.hardware,comp.sys.amiga.misc,comp.sys.amiga.emulations
Subject: Re: High Density drive for the Amiga???
From: lkoop@TIGGER.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU (LaMonte Koop)
Date: 7 Sep 92 01:15:18 -0600
Reply-To: lkoop@TIGGER.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU
 <1992Sep6.172057.27665@wam.umd.edu>,<1992Sep7.050410.23512@newshost.unh.edu>
Organization: St. Cloud State University, St. Cloud, MN

In article <1992Sep7.050410.23512@newshost.unh.edu>, ggg@kepler.unh.edu (Gregory G Greene) writes:
>>   Well, there's a reason why alot of us don't read comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
>>   the big reason is that we read these groups to learn about new amiga stuff
>>  and more things about the hardware and software already out and comming for
>> it. I am ABSOLUTELY SICK and tired of going through these newsgroups just to
>> hear about OH IBM 
>>   is this and Atari ius that and can your amiga do that? And all the flames
>>    on this great machine from all sorts of people who have
>>    never used the thing. I absolutely hate comp.sys.amiga.advocacy now.
>>    It sucks rocks because it has been taken over by everybody except
>>   amiga owners who just come right along saying, your machine sucks.
>
>	Am I reading the same group as you?  I see plenty of Amiga owners
>   bashing PC's as well.  
>
>
>>  Don't they have anything better to do? I don't see a bunch of amihga
>>  owners going to comp.sys.ibmpc or something and flame them. What's the
>
>	You should have read one of the pc.misc groups about a month ago,
>   a couple of Amigadroids did just this.  So don't go claiming that Amiga
>   owners are innocent of starting flame wars in other groups.
>
>							G.Greene

    This is true, and it is quite unfortunate.  However, it is getting a bit old
to see the derogatory, and quite childish term 'Amigadroid' being used these
days.  Such terms are usually found in high-school to pre-high-school
surroundings, and do nothing to possibly ebb the unneeded hostility which tends
to float around this newsgroup.

                 ----------------------------------------
           LaMonte Koop -- SCSU Electrical/Computer Engineering
 Internet: lkoop@tigger.stcloud.msus.edu -OR- f00012@kanga.stcloud.msus.edu
              "You mean you want MORE lights on this thing???"
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: PC Imagine Was: IBM lamers at their worst - uiuc siggraph meeting
From: alanb@sdl.mdcbbs.com (Alan Braggins)
Date: 10 Sep 92 16:12:51 GMT
Organization: Shape Data (Division of EDS), Cambridge UK
In-reply-to: copes@cs.curtin.edu.au's message of Thu, 10 Sep 1992 06:50:36 GMT

>>>>> On Thu, 10 Sep 1992 06:50:36 GMT, copes@cs.curtin.edu.au (Simon Cope) said:

> I heard somewhere that Impulse is going to release a PC version of Imagine.
> Sort of makes your skin crawl, but they could sell heaps more copies, and a 
> bunch of 486/50's would be good for rendering, even if you can't record direct
> off one.  So you would still need an amiga, or an  expensive standards
> convertor card for one.  Anyone care to substantiate this?

They are, at least according to their last newsletter.
Suggest you keep your Amiga as a really neat computer, and get a 486 as
a dumb but powerful (and cheap) rendering engine. Promises they won't ever 
stop supporting the Amiga.

Estimated shipping date October 1st, offer of $100 dollars for existing 
Imagine owners who want to pre-order now. $495 otherwise.

"Yes we can ship it discreetly. No one will ever know that you are using
the PC for anything other than a doorstop." - I guess they know how
enthusiastic Amiga owners can be.

--
Alan Braggins, Shape Data (A Division of EDS Ltd), Cambridge, UK +44-223-316673
   "Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced."
 "My employer does not necessarily share my views - but I'm working on it."
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy