HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: spb0457@rigel.tamu.edu (SubGenius)
Subject: Re: Neuromancer
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: Texas A&M University, Academic Computing Services
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 16:59:00 GMT

Roger Squires writes...
>	I must say I still prefer the virtual world presented in
>	Vernor Vinge's classic novella _True Names_ to Gibson's.
>	The fantasy aspect is emphasized more, and the atmosphere
>	of the novella is less depressing.

+---------------------------------------SubG----------------------------------+
Which is perhaps a good argument for Mr. Vinge's story being `popular fiction,'
and _Neuromancer_ being a canidate for `literature'-hood (or would that be
"`literature'-ship"?)
But let's not get into that discussion again.
+---------------------------------------SubG----------------------------------+

>	Do you mean earlier than _N_?  Recall that _MLO_ is a 
>	sequel to _N_.

+---------------------------------------SubG----------------------------------+
Thanks for the tip.
My point was that although _Mona Lisa Overdrive_ holds together (in my opinion)
as a novel better than _Neuromancer_ does, _Neuromancer_ is still a more
impressive work because in addition to being a damn good bit of fiction, it
more or less defined the field of "cyberpunk" sf, whereas _Mona Lisa
Overdrive_, also a damn good read, is merely a novel in the field of
"cyberpunk" sf.
Although I'd hate to overstate the case by grandiose metaphor, it's sort of
like Johnson's _Dictionary_.
+---------------------------------------SubG----------------------------------+


>       There is also a volume of short stories,
>	_Burning Chrome_, which has stories featuring, e.g., the
>	Molly Mr. Sub. refers to, which is not bad.

+---------------------------------------SubG----------------------------------+
Sorry mate;  can't parse your banter there.
+---------------------------------------SubG----------------------------------+

[deletia]

>Roger Squires













Yours etc.,





SubGenius

Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: fi@grebyn.com (Fiona Webster)
Subject: Re: Hey, you that bought the Madonna _Sex_ book...
Keywords: Madonna,_Sex_
Organization: Grebyn Timesharing
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1992 22:16:55 GMT

Lon Ponschock writes:
>==>  I would like to know if any purchasers of the Madonna book, 
>_Sex_,  feel ripped off.
>	Do you think it was worth good value for the money esp. 
>regarding the content, leaving aside the workmanship etc?

An oddly phrased question, huh, folks?  If you leave aside the
form, and pay attention only to the content, what's the content?
The only "informational value" of this book--that is, what it says
about our culture, blah-blah--can be had without buying it.  Past
that, I didn't know there *was* any content that could transcend
its form, in this particular opus.  Do tell--if there is.

							--Fiona
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,sci.philosophy.meta
From: mnemonic@eff.org (Mike Godwin)
Subject: Re: Wittgenstein, P.I.
Originator: mnemonic@eff.org
Organization: Electronic Frontier Foundation
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1992 20:57:19 GMT

In article <TORKEL.92Nov21194533@bast.sics.se> torkel@sics.se (Torkel Franzen) writes:

>  So where did the "problems in the use of language" come from?

I think it came from another of my postings. It wasn't meant to be taken
as a quotation or near-quotation.

>  Wittgenstein didn't labor against metaphysics, hard or otherwise. I think
>you're really talking about Carnap...

Never studied Carnap, so I doubt this. Perhaps I'm really talking about
Ms. Anscombe, whose translations of Wittgenstein I relied on. If you can
demonstrate that Wittgenstein was not deeply critical of metaphysics, I
will happily admit my error here.


--Mike



-- 
Mike Godwin,    |"I can solve this Orient Express thing without
mnemonic@eff.org| breaking a sweat. It's that simple."
(617) 864-0665  | 
EFF, Cambridge  |                           --Hercule Perot
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,sci.philosophy.meta
From: jmc@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (John McCarthy)
Subject: Re: Wittgenstein, P.I.
Reply-To: jmc@cs.Stanford.EDU
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University
	<1992Nov17.125404.4312@eff.org>
	<1992Nov19.225129.18766@aplcen.apl.jhu.edu>
Date: 20 Nov 92 08:34:30

>For Wittgenstein, P.I., the world is all that is the case.

Goddamn lawyers.
--
John McCarthy, Computer Science Department, Stanford, CA 94305
*
He who refuses to do arithmetic is doomed to talk nonsense.

Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,sci.philosophy.meta
From: cash@convex.com (Peter Cash)
Subject: Wittgenstein and metaphysics was: Wittgenstein, P.I.
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 17:18:03 GMT
Organization: The Instrumentality
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

In article <gall.722534917@yorku.ca> gall@nexus.yorku.ca (Norm Gall) writes:
...
>I have had this argument many times before with many different people.
>W was not a metaphysician, nor can his writings be standardly
>construed to be metaphysical.  Only in a soft minded way can his
>positions be considered to contain a metaphysical position, i.e. if
>_any_ statement about existence counts a a metaphysical claim.

Perhaps this is as good a time as any to ask a couple of (related)
questions that have been bothering me: exactly what characterizes a
"metaphysician"? What, precisely, is "metaphysics"?

Once I have come to understand the answers to these questions, perhaps I
will be able to judge for myself whether or not Wittgenstein was a
metaphysician. As things stand, I have not seen anyone demonstrate a
sufficiently clear grasp of this (possibly spurious) discipline to allow me
to decide the question.

As best as I can tell, there are those who think that Wittgenstein broke
with the philosophical tradition in some fundamental way, and this makes
them say, "Wittgenstein was not a metaphysician". Often, they mean
something like, "Wittgenstein was not a quack"--because they think
metaphysicians practice a sort of quackery. I can't seem to find anyone
who thinks metaphysics is a valuable discipline, and who insists that
Wittgenstein was a practitioner of the art. But then again, the only people
who will admit to being metaphysicians are palm readers and crystal gazers.

In the absence of any really solid notion of what constitutes "metaphysics"
in the sense in which it can sensibly be said that Wittgenstein was or
wasn't a practitioner, I really don't see the point of this debate.





-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
             |      Die Welt ist alles, was Zerfall ist.     |
Peter Cash   |       (apologies to Ludwig Wittgenstein)      |cash@convex.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,alt.horror
From: grimaldo@tokyo.seri.philips.nl (Emilio Grimaldo)
Subject: Re: Dean Koontz
Organization: Philips Semiconductors, The Netherlands 
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 16:58:32 GMT

meg@syrinx.umd.edu (******** Meg *******) writes:
: Could someone send me a complete listing of his books? I know I've seen some
: such list before, but of course I didn't save it at the time. Thanks.
: 
: -Meg
: meg@syrinx.umd.edu
 
 I do not have it but if you look into the cover pages of any of his books you
 will see a complete (as of time of printing...) of his novels.

--
NAME:    D. Emilio Grimaldo T.                                   _/_/_/_/
EMAIL:   grimaldo@tokyo.sce.philips.nl                        _/_/_/ 
ADDRESS: PO Box 218,BE-543,5600 MD Eindhoven,The Netherlands   _/_/_/_/ 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
     * * PERSONAL OPINIONS AND THEREFORE NOT REPRESENTING MY EMPLOYER * *
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Earth's largest project is also going wrong: humanity..." -me
"To love is to smell the fragance of a soul's inner beauty..." -me
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: mtaranto@shearson.com (Mark Taranto)
Subject: Re: The Secret Agent
Organization: Yale CS Mail/News Gateway
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 20:49:19 GMT

 
 
Francis Muir writes:
 
	Ron, Ron, don't you know that you're going to start Little
        Markie off on his rant about that dreadful Forster thing?
 
Sorry -- I'll try to be less predictable in the future.

I'll stop talking so much about HOWARDS END when you read the damn book.

Mark

Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: hoosiers@carson.u.washington.edu (Mary Loveless)
Subject: Re: good novels about gay lifestyle
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 18:47:02 GMT

In article <1ehbapINNp65@agate.berkeley.edu> srubio@garnet.berkeley.edu (Steven Rubio) writes:

I remembered, after posting my recommendation, that not all of RMB's
books are about gay life.  The mysteries, co-written with and narrated by
her cat, are heterosexual in focus.

>I second the recommendation of Rita Mae Brown.  I have taught
>_Rubyfruit_Jungle_ a couple of times, and students love it.  It's funny
>and an "easy" read; it has Huck Finn echoes and refreshing honesty.

>Steven
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mary Loveless
All my opinions are self-righteously my own
"Common sense and politics don't mix, m'dear."  Heron Carvic
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,sci.philosophy.meta
From: gall@nexus.yorku.ca (Norm Gall)
Subject: Re: Wittgenstein and metaphysics was: Wittgenstein, P.I.
Organization: York University
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 21:37:19 GMT

cash@convex.com (Peter Cash) writes:

|In article <gall.722544249@yorku.ca> gall@nexus.yorku.ca (Norm Gall) writes:
|>Well, as a philosopher, I can tell you that many amny professional
|>philosophers consider metaphysics not only a valuable (and profitable)
|>endeavour, but would dismiss all else as mere philosophical
|>masturabation suitable for the corner bistro, but not the hallowed
|>halls of the University.

|Hmm. That probably accounts for why I have such a hard time understanding
|what such professional philosophers say.

Yes. Indeed.  Me too.

|>In a nutshell, metaphysics concerns itslef with what is actually the
|>case about the world independent of humans, human investiagtion, and
|>human reasoning.  of course, you'll get a plethora of differeing
|>definitions and descriptions, but, it seems to me, it always boils
|>down to 'what is _really_ the case!??!'

|Not very helpful, that. What do you mean by "independent of humans, human
|investigation, and human reasoning"? I would suppose that a private
|investigator does concern himself with what is the case (in more than one
|manner of speaking). Are the activities of Sherlock Holmes metaphysical?
|Why or why not? But the activities of the metaphysician _are_ metaphysical,
|I suppose. Why, I wonder?

Well Holmes is worried about things with a certain theory of the way
the world is.  He tests the theories against what he finds in the
world.  Metaphysicians are not worried about facts of the world...
more like facts of possible worlds.

|And you say Wittgenstein wasn't concerned with "what is the case". (Except,
|I suppose, in his misspent youth.) What's the opposite of this kind of
|concern; what is it to be unconcerned with what is the case? 

Well, he was concerned with what is the case.

But he was more concerned with the grammar of language (not grammar in
the sense of english grammar, but logical grammar)  Logical grammar
describes the way concepts 'interlock' and exclude one another.  A
good reference for this is 

Rundle, Bede. Grammar in Philosophy. (Basil Blackwell: Oxford, 1979)

good luck

norm gall
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: mtaranto@shearson.com (Mark Taranto)
Subject: Re: Wittgenstein and metaphysics was: Wittgenstein, P.I.
Organization: Yale CS Mail/News Gateway
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 18:57:06 GMT

cash@convex.com (Peter Cash) asks:
 
> Perhaps this is as good a time as any to ask a couple of (related)
> questions that have been bothering me: exactly what characterizes a
> "metaphysician"? What, precisely, is "metaphysics"?
 
The answer, like the question "What is Philosophy" seems to be a moving
target.  Historically, Metaphysics has included Ontology, Cosmology, and
Epistemology.  Ontology is concerned with the nature of existence,
Epistemology with the nature of knowledge, and Cosmology with the nature
of the universe.
 
My view of Philosophy is that much of what was once considered Philosophy
got split into other areas of study.  It happened with Mathematics in
the 5th Century BC, with Physics in the 17th Century, with Psychology
around the turn of the century.  There is a lot of overlap between
work done in the Philosophy of Language and certain areas of Linguistics.
 
So, too, has Metaphysics changed.  Consider Cosmology.  What kinds of
questions does one have concerning the nature of the Universe?  Some
are best answered in Physics and Astronomy, others in Theology.
 
In LANGUAGE, TRUTH & Logic, A.J. Ayers tries to define away metaphysics.
He admits that there are important questions in each of the areas mentioned
above -- but claims that all of the interesting work is now done outside
of Metaphysics, and what is left over is worthless.
 
So -- to the question of whether or not Wittgenstein was a metaphysician,
the answer depends on how you want to define it.  By Ayers' definition,
the answer is "No."  But I feel that his distinction is a word game,
and using the classical definition -- we all are.
 
Mark
From: kasprj@jec322.its.rpi.edu (Jim Kasprzak)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Balls etc. (was Madonna's new book)
Date: 18 Nov 92 16:07:16 GMT
Article-I.D.: rpi.y7x1qp=
Reply-To: kasprj@rpi.edu
Organization: The Big Wedge

In article <17NOV92.17123812@vax.clarku.edu>, hhenderson@vax.clarku.edu writes:
|> 
|> There is that story about the American general whose forces were 
|> surrounded by Germans during the Battle of the Bulge, and who,
|> when the Germans demanded his surrender, responded "Balls!" 
|> (or in the bowdlerized version, "Nuts!").  This always struck
|> me as admirably brief.  However, I later read somewhere that he 
|> really said "Fuck off!" which is much more to the point.
|> Any of the military historians on rec.arts.books recall the name
|> of this monosyllabic general, or know more about this story?
 
 The way I heard the story, it was General Anthony McAuliffe of the 
101st Airborne. He recieved a rather succinct note from a German 
liason which read as follows:
 
 To the American Commander:
     
  Surrender.
 
 The German Commander.
 
 McAuliffe regarded this note with a "you can't be serious" look, and
proceeded to write his reply:
 
 To the German Commander:
 
  Nuts!
 
 The American Commander. 
 
 The German envoy, not being familiar with the phrase, asked the 
general just what "nuts" meant. McAuliffe, who was really losing 
his patience by this point, said "It means 'fuck off'!" Apparently
this phrase was within the messenger's knowledge of English, as he
then dutifully delivered the note back to the German headquarters.
McAuliffe proceeded to get on with the business of winning the war,
which he regarded as rather more important than eloquent writing.

------------------------------------------------------------------
     __  Live from Capitaland, heart of the Empire State...
 ___/  | Jim Kasprzak, computer operator @ RPI, Troy, NY, USA
/____ *| Sam Adams,Spaten# Life is too short #Hudson Lager,Beck's 
     \_| Pilsener Urquell#to drink cheap beer#Pete's Wicked Ale
      ====  e-mail: kasprj@rpi.edu or kasprzak@mts.rpi.edu
From: amnell@klaava.Helsinki.FI (Marko Amnell)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Sunday Times BOOKS
Date: 20 Nov 92 23:11:39 GMT
Organization: University of Helsinki

In article <28455@castle.ed.ac.uk> jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk 
(Jeremy Henderson) writes:

>In article <1eh0g9INNej2@morrow.stanford.edu> francis@oas.stanford.edu 
(Francis Muir) writes:

>~The OBSERVER and SUNDAY TIMES are particularly pleasant adjuncts to the
>~trad Brit Brekker, but because it is Sunday eaten in bed courtesy the
>~Little Woman.
>
>I'm afraid that you are sadly behind the times, Fido. Under the stewardship
>of the absurd Andrew Neil, the Sunday Times has become an over-sized
>tabloid, purveyor of mindless tittle-tattle concerning the royal family,
>and other nonentities. The Sunday morning dilemma now concerns the Observer
>and the Independent On Sunday.

This is actually the awful truth.  But the BOOKS section is still a good
way to keep up with what's up in UK publishing.  I freely admit it doesn't
cover the absurd cost of paper as a whole in the Nordic countries.  I use
the rest for toilet paper -- it feels nicer than the Guardian Weekly...

-- 
Marko Amnell
amnell@klaava.helsinki.fi
Graduate Student in Philosophy
From: peace@camelot.bradley.edu (Laura Wasko)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Need Don Marquis poems
Keywords: archy mehitabel
Date: 15 Nov 92 21:20:48 GMT
Organization: Bradley University

Someone recently posted a poem from Don Marquis' _archy and mehitabel_
collection here, and if that person or another who has this book could
email me two of the poems, I would highly appreciate it.  I'm considering
several lines from them for an epigram for a poem I'm writing.  My college
library does not have the book and I don't really have time to wait for
interlibrary loan, since the poem is for a creative writing class and is
due in a week.  The poems I am looking for are the one about the death of
freddy the rat and the one about the moth (I believe it's a moth--could be
some other insect) who flew into a candle flame.  

Thank you very much for your trouble--

Laura


      Laura Wasko  peace@camelot.bradley.edu  Thomas Carlyle said it best:
     "The mad primeval Discord is hushed; the rudely-jumbled elements bind
  themselves into separate Firmaments: deep silent rock-foundations are built
  beneath; and the skyey vault with its everlasting Luminaries above; instead
   of a dark wasteful Chaos, we have a blooming, fertile, heaven-encompassed
   world.  I could too now say to myself: Be no longer a Chaos, but a World."
From: ian@spider.co.uk (Ian Heavens)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Madonna's new book
Date: 17 Nov 92 19:56:11 GMT
Organization: Spider Systems Limited, Edinburgh, UK.

In article <1e9a82INNg3u@emory.mathcs.emory.edu> mworley@mathcs.emory.edu (Meg Worley) writes:
>In article <1e8kelINNpfc@morrow.stanford.edu>, francis@oas.stanford.edu (Francis Muir) writes:
>
>> Really? Since young women carry about 400 of the little rascals around
>> with them in one stage or another (my ObGyn knowledge is pretty rusty),
>> it would seem that "eggs" would not be appropriate. To confuse things
>> a bit, in slang Spanish "balls" are called "uovos", eggs.
>
>"Huevos", Fido, "huevos."  Not yet recovered from that last evening
>spent with La Lollabrigida?  Or was it La Cicciolina?

Is this not a feature of Mexican as opposed to Castilian Spanish?

pedantically,

ian
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: mnemonic@eff.org (Mike Godwin)
Subject: Re: Maddona's new book
Originator: mnemonic@eff.org
Organization: Electronic Frontier Foundation
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1992 23:10:31 GMT

In article <1992Nov22.134006.9328@iccgcc.decnet.ab.com> lieser@iccgcc.decnet.ab.com (Ed Lieser) writes:

>Howard Stern.

Howard Stern what? Did you read the original posting?


--Mike



-- 
Mike Godwin,    |"I can solve this Orient Express thing without
mnemonic@eff.org| breaking a sweat. It's that simple."
(617) 864-0665  | 
EFF, Cambridge  |                           --Hercule Perot
From: amnell@klaava.Helsinki.FI (Marko Amnell)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Surreal Novels About WWII
Date: 23 Nov 92 10:59:54 GMT
Organization: University of Helsinki

In <98744@netnews.upenn.edu> weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu 
(Matthew P Wiener) writes:

>No one seems to have mentioned Joseph Heller CATCH-22 yet.  Or Kurt
>Vonnegut SLAUGHTERHOUSE FIVE.

Ahem.  Only on the first two lines of my initial reply to Mr. Ronsen.
Please read posts before you comment.  I seem to recall that we've
already been through this in sci.math, Mr. Wiener.


-- 
Marko Amnell
amnell@klaava.helsinki.fi
Graduate Student in Philosophy
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: carl@class.gsfc.nasa.gov (Carl F. Hostetter)
Subject: Please suggest: fiction about Amish
Followup-To: rec.arts.books
Organization: NASA/GSFC
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 23:39:50 GMT

I would like recommendations on good books, preferably fiction, but
non-fiction is also acceptable, that have a Pennsylvania Dutch/Amish
setting and convey the Amish way of life. Also, can anyone
recommend a particularly good guide to the Pennsylvania Dutch dialect
of German?

Thanks!

|===================================================================|
|         Carl F. Hostetter      carl@class.gsfc.nasa.gov           |
|                                                                   |
|                    Ars longa, vita brevis.                        |
|          The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne.            |
|  "I wish life was not so short," he thought.  "Languages take     |
|  such a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about."  |
|===================================================================|
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Souls in the First Circle
From: zeleny@husc10.harvard.edu (Michael Zeleny)
Date: 15 Nov 92 18:33:50 EST
Organization: The Phallogocentric Cabal

In article <1e6jrdINN7ha@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> 
br105@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Jeffrey A. Del Col) writes:

>Why put Tsvetaeva and other poets in the first circle of Hell?
>Because that's where Dante puts all the great pagan poets.  It's
>a nice scene; Homer and the others come to greet Dante and welcome
>him as a peer; then they engage in a little chit-chat among equals.

Has anyone asked, in addition to yourself?

>Just a trifling  allusion, that's all.

The cognate term you are looking for is "trivial".

>J. Del Col
>-- 
>Jeff Del Col      *   DECONSTRUCTION--- the critical method invented      
>A-B College       *                      by Procrustes  
>Philippi, WV      *                             
>                  *         

cordially,
mikhail zeleny@husc.harvard.edu
"Un de mes plus grands plaisirs est de jurer Dieu quand je bande."

Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: nickles@sage.cc.purdue.edu (john a nickles)
Subject: Re: "Authors in Popsongs" quiz
Organization: Purdue University Computing Center
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 03:57:38 GMT

My personal favorite has always been:
 "I've been Ayn Randed, been branded
  A Communist 'cause I'm left handed!
  That's the hand they use --
  Well, never mind. . .

 A Simple Delistry(sp) Phillipic (sp) 
  Simon and Garfunkel

John A. Nickles
Standard Disclaimer:
LEFT HANDERS: THE DINKY MINORITY


Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: jlc5f@poe.acc.Virginia.EDU (Jean L. Cooper)
Subject: Ft. Lauderdale bookstores
Organization: University of Virginia
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 20:02:08 GMT

I'll be in Ft. Lauderdale FL for about 3 days at
the beginning of December.  Does anyone know of
some good used bookstores there?  Thanks.
--
Jean L. Cooper    (BITNET: JLC5F@virginia.edu   CIS: 70253,1114)
"The true University of these days is a Collection of Books." 
                                           --Carlyle
From: francis@oas.stanford.edu (Francis Muir)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: [UPI] Library attacked for buying Madonna's Sex book
Date: 16 Nov 1992 11:52:30 GMT
Organization: Stanford Exploration Project
NNTP-Posting-Host: oas.stanford.edu

John Nagle writes:

	Yeah, for $50 it ought to be better bound.  I expect a 
	paperback version once hardback sales run down.

You miss the point. The binding is the book, or a major part of it.
It probably does not belong in any library, not because of any problems
with its content, but because it isn't a book. It is, literally, an
"objet d'art".

							Fido