From: jbw@ponder.csci.unt.edu (WEST JASON BRUCE)
Subject: Re: Ken's 4-Hit Touch of Death (and Bison's scissor...)
Organization: University of North Texas, Denton
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 21:03:28 GMT

In article <BzD0E9.GoH@news.cso.uiuc.edu> cw21219@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Crying Freeman) writes:
>jbw@ponder.csci.unt.edu (WEST JASON BRUCE) writes:
>
>>In article <tmorris.724503021@bruny> tmorris@bruny.cc.utas.edu.au (Tim Morris) writes:
>>>> [Stacks of unrelated stuff the last guy didn't bother deleting, deleted]
>>>
>>>>   Talk about missing the damn point.  FOr the last time I am whining about
>>>>nothing.  I am simply stating the lack of balance in Ken/Ryus ability to
>>>>kill you off one hit.  Not "take half your energy" - but kill you. And Ryu's
>>>>3 hit does stun if you do it right.  I was just getting so sick of everyone
>>>>calling Bison "cheap" when Ken/Ryu obviosly have more unbalanced abilities.
>
>Why do you insist that only Ken/Ryu have the ability to kill you w/ combos?
>There are plenty of characters who can do this. I play Guile and
>know that if you land a four fierce combo on your opponent, you
>can do another and they'll usually be either dead, or left with
>a sliver of energy. IMO Guile's combos are second only to Ken's.

  Plenty? - Ryu/Ken/Guile is plenty?  Anyway, the point is Bison doesn't have
that ability so he gets some cool moves.

[observations deleted]
>>>manouvers, it's just that any other character that relied on these
>>>techniques to win would also be flamed just as Bison is.  If someone
>
>>   Everything you mentioned can be mimicked by most other characters.
>>Ken can short kick/throw.  Or HK then throw.  But you can reverse this
>>so you don't call it cheap.  You don't know how to reverse Bison - so
>>you call him cheap...it's that simple.  In the old days of classic
>>when ticking started it was "SOOOO CHEAP!" - then counter throwing and
>>counter ticking evolved...and everyone "ok, that's cool".  
>>   It's the same thing with Bison.
>
>I personally don't feel anything is cheap. But I do feel that your
>arguments that Ken/Ryu have some sort of unfair advantage is ridiculous.

REREAD, and THINK this time:
>>>>   Talk about missing the damn point.  FOr the last time I am whining about
>>>>nothing.  I am simply stating the lack of balance in Ken/Ryus ability to
>>>>kill you off one hit.  Not "take half your energy" - but kill you. And Ryu's

Did I say something was cheap?  Did I say there was an unfair advantage?
Is english your second language?  What the hell.

>Sure, I believe they're some of the best characters in the game, but
>so what? They're not unbeatable. I believe you have mentioned that

   I don't know.  So what?  Really, they arn't unbeatable?  You are another
master of the obvious.

>Dhalsim is your main character. As Dhalsim you should at WORST be
>even with Ken and Ryu, and if you were half decent, you should have
>an advantage over them. You can jump up and drill them during the delay
>in their fireballs, you should have no problem throwing them after

   Ken *maybe*, Ryu no.  People here can dp you out of that quite easily.
If you do it too quick your feet will hit the Fb and you will just fal down.
Anyway, there are much better tactics anyway.

>the HK because of the long range throw... What are you complaining about?r

REREAD what I told you to REREAD above.  You will notice the phrase "For
the last time I am whiming about nothin."  I'm sorry you are incapable of
reading.

>>>challenges with Ken, then in the back of your mind you're wary of
>>>the 4-hitter, bun Ken will rarely land this combo on you if you're
>>>any good.  Sure, it's not balanced that he has the potential.  But
>
>>   Now THAT is funny.  Ken/Ryu won't hit you with a flying fierce "if you're
>>any good" - but Bison can flame/throw you.  Sorry man, Bison's ticks are
>>*much* easier to avoid.  With Ken/Ryu that one mistake can cost you 
>>the round.  With Bison you get to try to reverse, then try again, and
>>again, and again.
>
>I've played Bison a bit, and no you CAN'T throw after he torpedoes. There
>is a split second delay, even when you are in the corner. Try it. Play
>Bison, do a fierce torpedo into your opponent in the corner and while you
>are torpedoing, hold the joystick straight up. You will usually (not ALWAYS)
>be able to jump up, avoiding the throw.

  READ DAMMIT!  HOW HARD IS IT!?!  I said if Bison flames and THROWS YOU then
you suck...not that you should be able to throw him always.  BUT, if he
does a strong flame (which is the only one he can throw you after) then
you can easily reverse throw.
  And, he can jump in the corner, but so what?  He is a sitting duck floating
above you - pick your favorite move.

>Also, how do you avoid the torpedo when you are on the ground in the middle
>of the screen, say, after a throw?

   If you have fallen you must suffer an extra 4 ticks of energy from Bison.
Much like with Chun Li's lightning kick or Honda's hundred hands or Blanka's
electricity.  All these moves make you take damage when you fallen - unless
you dp out of it or something (which you can do to the flame also).

>>>with Bison, the cheese is flying thick and fast from the word go
>>>until the end of the round, no matter who wins.  I'm just thankful
>
>>   Do me a favor and attakc Bison from the proper distance with flying 
>>roundhouse kicks.  Tell me how poerful he seems.  Throw in a couple
>>throws after a blocked kick.  Bison sucks.
>
>What's this crap about Bison not being able to counter throws? He's
>got one of the longest range and powerful throws, IMO. When I play
>Bison, I counter throw better than I do with Guile. 

  You truly are incapable of reading arn't you?  I said repeatedly jump in
on Bison with roundhouse kicks and tell me how powerful he seems. [meaning
this renders him useless].  Then, when Bison is trying to gain distance
and is worried about position you toss in a throw.  Of course he can
counter throw you - everything can be countered.

>>>that I can pick Guile or Ryu and beat most Bison's, imagine what
>>>it's like for the intermediate players who don't stand a chance.
>
>>   Any half-decent Z can kill Bison.  And any intermediate other character
>>should be able to beat an *intermediate* Bison.  Now, if the Bison is 
>>*good* - then you will have to be *good*.  That's how it works with
>>everybody.  But I can honestly say I've never been beaten by a Bison of
>>less skill than I.
>
>I have played Bison and beaten players more "skilled" than me. Heck,
>I've probably played Bison only a total of 20-30 times ever, and have
>beaten people way more "skill" and experience with their characters.
>Why? He's not that hard to play. If you know how to scissor kick,
>know when to use the torpedo properly, then you are a *good* Bison.

  The guys you played, by definition, didn't know how to play v. Bison then.
He is such a boring a shitty character that most people don't play him -
so most people don't play against him.  

>Are you sure you know what the "CHEESE" really is? This is one of the
>ugliest techniques, but quite effective, esp against certain characters.
>The "CHEESE" only occurs when the opponent is trapped in the middle
>of the "playing area" (away from the corners.) Usually it starts when
>Bison throws the opponent into the middle of the playing area. Bison
>then torpedoes at the opponent (who is still down) As soon as the
>opponent gets up, he's  stuck in a block and takes maybe 3-4 blocked
>clicks of energy. As soon as Bison comes out of the torpedo (which is
>in the opposite corner, but a few inches away from the opponent, so
>he can't counter) he does another fierce torpedo. This does usually
>6 blocked clicks of energy, and he can repeat it again.

   WHAT!  Have actually ever died due to this?  This trap is probably about
1/50th as difficult to get out of as a Ryu fireball trap.  If you are
really getting desperate and "don't have time to jump or anything" then
PUNCH!  You get nabbed a few times but eventually you will nail him in the
head.  When you do, try not to get into this rare position again.

>Yes, you can dragon punch out of it, but what if you are not Ken/Ryu?
>This is especially effective against Blanka. The torpedo is fast enough
>that you do NOT have time to stop it when it is coming back at you.

   So you have died from this?  Since you "can't get out".  PUNCH!  Or, better
yet - roll at his ass as he is leaving your body.

>That is the true "CHEESE". I myself didn't believe it until I actually
>saw it done, but yes it is UGLY!

   Doesn't work man.  

>>And this skill to damage ratio is crap:
>>  How hard is a 3 hitter stun combo with Ryu?  It took me about an hour
>>to get down.  It takes a lot longer than that for Bison to learn
>>spacing/timing and all that stuff for his moves.
>
>It took me a few days to "master Bison". I've been playing Ken on and off
>for a few months (never seriously) but I STILL can't do the four hit
>combo. I bet there are lots of Ken players who have been playing the
>game since the classic SF2 came out and still can't do four hit combos
>consistently.

  YOU ARN'T A MASTER BISON - get that into your head.  Being able to do
some brain-dead stuff back and forth does not make you a master.  Being
a master means you play well against all characters under different
circumstances (at the VERY least).  You beat master Kens/Ryus/Guiles
with your Bison?

>Yes I can do the 3 hit combo with Ryu (I assume you mean Roundhouse,
>forward, fireball) but this is NOT a stun combo. It will only stun if 
>you hit before the combo.

   No, I meant fierce fierce fireball and it does stun.

>Your arguments are just totally ridiculous. In terms of becoming a "master"
>Ken/Ryu are probably the hardes to master. The problem with Bison is
>that there are too many scrubs making him look bad. The favorite character

   Please.  Ken/Ryus have been around since SFI (the moves anyway).
I would say Ken,Ryu, and Guile are the *only* characters that HAVE BEEN MASTERED
by anyone.  Maybe a few others.  Now, does that make those characters harder
to master or easier?

>of scrubs is definitely Bison. You just have to remember, these are the
>same players that can't hit you with an aerial roundhouse if you were
>just standing there. They learn how to torpedo and come in with a feeling
>of power. 

    And they're a joke.

>>Ciao...
>
>
>>                                              - Jason
>
>-- 
> Kenneth C. Wang	| University Of Illinois Champaign-Urbana	
> 			| Internet: c-wang@uiuc.edu			


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