HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: barry@uts.amdahl.com (Barry Needham)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Why a sawed-off shotgun?
Date: 28 Aug 92 20:34:49 GMT
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA


vanetten@unix.cie.rpi.edu (John S. Van Etten) writes:

#Clayton Cramer writes about short-barreled shotguns:

##  Such
##shotguns were used in trench warfare by U.S. soldiers, much to the
##consternation of the Germans.

#I've seen this at least half a dozen times both in t.p.g and here.
#And I've e-mailed a couple of people about this and both ignored me.
#So I'm going to throw it out to rec.guns in general and ask if
#*anybody* has a reference to short-barreled shotguns used in the
#military.  The trench guns of WWI and WWII (including Win M97 and M12,
#Stevens M520 and M620, etc., etc.) all had 20-in. barrels, which is a
#full 2 inches over the limit.  Even the current issue Mossberg M590
#has a 20-in. cylinder tube with 2-3/4" chamber, as per the original
#spec.  The military has *never* used a "trench gun" with a short
#barrel, at least not by that name.  Is there something I've missed?  I
#think a few people seem confused about the US vs. Miller decision,
#unless I am. :-)

The USNC issued 870s with a folding stock and 14 inch barrel in Vietnam.

Barry.

-- 
Barry Needham          barry@uts.amdahl.com          USA (408) 992-2527
From: n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Is a pocket gun really a pocket gun?
Date: 31 Aug 92 17:10:19 GMT
Organization: Western Washington University

swkmorri@nuscc.nus.sg (Perry Morrison (Dr)) writes:

#IS it really possible to carry a resonable calibre (.38, .45, .357)
#handgun in your trouser pocket with reasonable concealment and
#safety?

#I've always wondered whether there would be an advantage in having
#a snub nosed revolver (bobbed hammer) carried there rather than in
#a holster. In a really desperate situation perhaps you could fire from
#within the pocket (hopefully missing the family jewels)? In addition,
#wouldn't reaching within a very baggy trouser pocket be a little more
#surruptitious than reaching for a conventional holster?

#What are the pros and cons of this method of carry?

	I've always taken "pocket carry" to mean a jacket pocket, which
_is_ reasonable for a compact revolver or pistol.

My Jennings J-22 will fit in a trouser pocket with comfort, allowing me
to pull it out and hit someone over the head with it in an emergency.

(^8

Jim D
From: gswst@gl.pitt.edu (Gary S. Wachs)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Firearms in Austin, TX
Date: 28 Aug 92 15:07:32 GMT
Organization: University of Pittsburgh, Electrical Engineering


Howdy folks,

I'll be living in Austin for the rest of the year and so I called the
Sherrifs department to find out what the county or district rules were.

Travis County does not have a carry permit licence, they said.  There's
no way a civilian can carry for self-defense.  

It's okay to lock your gun up (unloaded) in the trunk to take it to
sporting events, though.

The Officer I spoke with indicated that the laws relating to this 
subject are extremely diverse and complicated throughout Texas; this
would explain why, up until now, I had the impression that firearm
laws were relatively lax through the state.  Not so!

Anyone know more, I'de be much ablidged if you let me know!



_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_
| Gary S. Wachs (412) 363-4242      + University of Pittsburgh, EE Department |
| U.S.Mail: 1353 Cordova Road,      + "If you endeavor to answer every ques-  |
| Pittsburgh. PA 15206-1430.        + tion ever put to you, remember to change|
| Internet: gswst@unix.cis.pitt.edu + your watch's battery regularly"... me   |
-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-
From: cramer@optilink.com (Clayton Cramer)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Why a sawed-off shotgun?
Date: 1 Sep 92 13:16:19 GMT
Organization: Optilink Corporation, Petaluma, CA


In article <Btoytt.KnI@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, cbl@uihepa.hep.uiuc.edu (Chris Luchini) writes:
# In article <11931@optilink.UUCP>, cramer@optilink.com (Clayton Cramer) writes:
# #The purpose of such a gun is to kill at short range, especially under
# #conditions where careful aim isn't possible.  This can be legitimate
#                   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
# 
# #(such shotguns are used by the U.S. Marshall's Service for protecting
# #witnesses from professional hit men) or illegitimate (armed robbery
# #with such weapons is pretty common).
# 
# 	Sigh. You've bought into the myth that got them banned in the
# 	first place. Take your cylinder bore (ie your non-rifled slub
# 	barrel or 'riot' barrel) with any shotshell you care to use
# 	and pattern it. Put up a 4'x'4 sheet of paper and fire a
# 	round at it from 6 feet. You will get a ~2-4" hole. At
# 	10 yards, the pattern is somewhere between 10-20". Yes, Virginia,
# 	you still have to aim.
# 
# *1110 W. Green/Urbana IL 61801/217-333-0505/cbl@uihepa.hep.uiuc.edu 

I didn't say you didn't have to aim -- but less care is required.
The pattern gets wider as you reduce the barrel length.  It's
never going to be a 180 degree spread, but increasing the 
pattern from 20" to 30" at close distances may mean the difference
between a hit or a miss, or between a minor injury and a major
injury.

Obviously, reduced barrel length also means reduced distance that
the shot will be deadly.


-- 
Clayton E. Cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer  My opinions, all mine!
Alcohol prohibition didn't work; drug prohibition doesn't work; gun
prohibition won't work.
From: jheath@fieldofdreams.npirs.purdue.edu (Jim Heath)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Differance between .40 and 10mm
Date: 25 Aug 92 21:19:45 GMT
Organization: Center for Environmental and Regulatory Information Systems, Purdue University

#From article <9208242007.AA11222@gatech.UUCP>, by acw@sbmsg1.UUCP (Alvin White):
# ## I was talking to a friend the other day here at work who claims he owns
# ## a lot of guns.  During our conversation he said that .40cal and 10MM are
# ## the same thing. 
# #
# #The .40 S&W and the 10mm are the same *bullet* but the casings are much
# #different from each other.  The .40 S&W case is not actually a shortened
# #10mm case.  The 10mm cartridge has much thicker walls and it uses a large
# #pistol primer, whereas the .40 uses a small pistol primer.
# # 
# #Like the .38 Special and the .357 Magnum, you can fire a .40 S&W in a 10mm
# #pistol, but not vice versa.
# 
# Please be careful with this kind of advice.  The 40S&W is perfectly
# safe to fire in a 10mm revolver.  This is acceptable.  The 40S&W
# will also fire in most 10mm auto-loaders.  This is not recommended.
# The explanation of the differences in the cartridges themselves is
# excellent.  The longer case of the 10mm is the reason it is not
# recommended to fire a 40S&W in a 10mm auto-loader.  Depending on
# where the particular pistol headspaces, a 40S&W may or may not
# function in a 10mm pistol.  Not only may it be unreliable, it
# may also be unsafe.
#

I haven't seen one of the 10mm revolvers, but, since the
cartridges both headspace (?) on the front of the cartridge,
wouldn't there be a problem with the .40S&W being too short?  Or
would you get by by using full moon clips?  BTW, has anyone had
any experience with the 10mm revolver?

And another question, I have an S&W 25-5 (Long Colt).  If I get
some "full moon" clips, can I fire .45 acps in it? 
-- 
"Land of song, said the warrior bard,           Jim Heath
Though all the world betrays thee.
One sword, at least, thy rights shall guard, (The Minstrel Boy)
One faithful harp will praise thee."         (Thomas Moore)
From: james@csn.org (Jim Phillips)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: From jimf@iwtdr.att.com (James R Fehrenbacher)
Date: 31 Aug 92 17:10:30 GMT
Organization: Colorado SuperNet, Inc.

In article <9208282235.AA22064@spsgate.sps.mot.com> rigg@ssdt-tempe.sps.mot.com (Dana Rigg) writes:
## Anyone have any experience with those portable machines for throwing
## clay targets? There are several different brands running around 30
#
#To be honest, I bought my thrower so long ago (5 years?) that I can't
#remember the brand (it was nothing fancy though).  
#When throwing targets, the whipping action caused the whole
#machanism to jump around, breaking the target before it left the arm.
#
#Solution:  I took the mechanism off of the steel platform, and bolted it
#to a piece of plywood.  

I also bought mine so long ago that I can't remember the brand.  The
jumping around problem seems to exist in all of the non professional models.
I cured mine by bolting it to an old tire complete with rim.  It's a little
heavy and doesn't store as neatly but at least I dont have to try to 
pound or screw anything into the Colorado Rockies.  

So far the fanciest solution I have heard of is the fellow that constructed
a mount that slid into the receiver hitch on his pickup truck.

I don't have problems with any targets breaking.  Not any of them at any
time.  Well maybe when the hit the ground :-)

james
From: kemasa@ghost.hac.com (Kemasa)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: CA gun laws -- in cars (waS Re: Travelling help)
Date: 28 Aug 92 20:34:32 GMT
Organization: Natural Order Nature Experiments (N.O.N.E.)


In article <1992Aug26.180114.24528@ttinews.tti.com> hollombe@polymath.tti.com (The Polymath) writes:
#...
#As a practical matter, you're not likely to need them in any of the major,
#or even minor, hotels.  I'd check them into the hotel safe (in locked
#containers -- no need to worry the staff).
#...

Have you read Ayoob's book "In the Gravest Extreme"? He tells of several
situations that happen in a hotel room. I don't recall where they occured,
but the point is that it can happen anywhere. I doubt that you would
need them, but then again that is true in general. How many times
have you *needed* a gun? If it is the one time that you don't have
one you will have a problem.

While I don't tend to carry a gun around with me all the time, I think
that if you have one with you it makes sense to have it with you rather
than locking it up (which I would not want to do as I am not sure how
safe motel safe would be.
-- 



						 Kemasa.

Insanity is the best defense.

Sierra Club Leader	NRA Life Member		Pro-freedom	Pro-choice

e-mail address: kemasa@ghost.hac.com
From: malodah@pbhyf.pacbell.com (Martin A. Lodahl)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: stupid shooter tricks
Date: 1 Sep 92 20:33:11 GMT
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA


This subject has brought back a flood of memories.  Working at a rifle 
and pistol range is a great way to see a lot of careless gun handling.
Most of these memories involve incredible thoughtlessness, and an
apparent inability to imagine what consequences could be.

My first day at the range it was freezing cold and too foggy to see
the backstop.  As far as I was concerned, if you couldn't see the
whole journey of the bullet, the range was closed.  No one had 
shown up to shoot anyway, so I set up the "range closed" and 
"man downrange" (this was a few years ago) signs in front of the
firing line, and went down to the butts to put away the rifle targets.
As I stepped out of the target house, WHOOOOMM!!  I heard the bullet
hit the backstop just to my left.  I screamed like an Inquisition
victim and dove back into the blockhouse.  Silence.  Then I heard
an engine start, and a car scrabbled out the driveway and down
the hill.  I found a still-warm .270 case at the firing line ...


The blockhouses had steel doors, and were padlocked when no one
was there (most of the time).  The nearest neighbor was a couple of
miles away.  Vandalism was not uncommon.  One day, I found the spoor
of a particularly thoughtless vandal.  I could see where he stood,
shooting holes in the door with his .45 auto.  He worked his way
around the edges of the door, and then apparently decided to try the
center.  He got that one back.  There was a dent in the door, the 
dust was knocked off where the steel had flexed inward then popped
back out, and there was a splash of blood amid the footprints, with
a light drip-trail back down the driveway.  He left behind the empty
cases and a paper sack of reloads.  Poetic justice, I'm tempted to
think ...

-- 
= Martin A. Lodahl    [DoD, AHA, NRA]  Systems Analyst, Pacific*Bell =
= malodah@PacBell.COM		Sacramento, CA, USA     916.972.4821 =
= If it's good for ancient Druids, runnin' nekkid through the wuids, =
= Drinkin' strange fermented fluids, it's good enough for me!!  8-)} =
From: jgd@dixie.com (John De Armond)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Is a pocket gun really a pocket gun?
Date: 2 Sep 92 19:04:34 GMT
Organization: Dixie Communications Public Access.  The Mouth of the South.

jheath@fieldofdreams.npirs.purdue.edu (Jim Heath) writes:

##From article <1992Aug31.041043.17914@nuscc.nus.sg>, by swkmorri@nuscc.nus.sg (Perry Morrison (Dr)):
## IS it really possible to carry a resonable calibre (.38, .45, .357)
## handgun in your trouser pocket with reasonable concealment and
## safety?

#I think the pocket in question is generally a coat/jacket pocket
#rather than a pants pocket although back pocket carry is not too
#uncommon.  

In my case, "pocket  carry" is just that, one of the front pockets in
my trousers.  If the .22 mag is accepted as a defense round (it is for
me), then the North American Arms 5 shot pocket revolver is just the
ticket.  I can hold the entire pistol cocealed in my fist.  There is
no evidence of a gun being in my pocket even when sitting.  And when
I find myself in a threatening situation, I can simply put my hand
in my pocket, grab the gun and be ready for trouble in an instant.

Think about this for a moment.  If you're walking in an area that makes
the hair stand up on your neck, you can have the pistol cocked and
ready to go while still in your pocket.  If, say, a mugger confronts
you, no particular move to get the gun is necessary.  Simply withdrawing
your hand from your pocket puts the pistol in the ready to fire 
position.  The element of surprise is on your side.  If the first shot
does not stop him, the second one will or at least you'll have
time to run.  I personally don't care about accuracy or pointability
or all that other stuff the gun rags talk about for the simple
reason that if I'm far enough away from the perp that I have to 
take aim, I'm gonna be running instead.  No shootout at the OK corral
for me.

To me the pocket pistol is the difference between being armed and only
carrying a pistol.  That pistol in the cocealed holster is not of 
much use when you have your hands on your head.

John
-- 
John De Armond, WD4OQC               |Interested in high performance mobility?  
Performance Engineering Magazine (TM) |
Marietta, Ga                         |Interested in high tech and computers? 
jgd@dixie.com                        |Write me about PE Magazine
Need Usenet public Access in Atlanta?  Write Me for info on Dixie.com.
From: rboudrie@chpc.org (Rob Boudrie)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Beretta 92 problems
Date: 30 Aug 92 14:09:19 GMT
Organization: Center For High Perf. Computing of WPI; Marlboro Ma

#
##b. [I am aware that the cracked frames in the armed services trials 
##    were attributed to "hot" ammo.]
#
#Tired old allegations deleted.

The DOCUMENTED allegations are that the slide in numerous military guns
firing hot ammo broke in such a manner that the rear portion of the 
slide flew to the rear, sometimes hitting the shooter in the face 
causing injury.

Fact #1: New beterra 92 series guns have a safety system in place to
         catch the broken rear part of the slide if it breaks off.

Fact #2: There is no recall for guns without this safety, and Beretta
         will not update older 92's even if the customer wants it.


#Old stories die hard.  I'd suggest that you look up the article on the subject
#in the American Rifleman (sometime in the last year).  Suffice it to say that
#when you subject a gun to a steady diet of proof-load pressure rounds, it
#may let go after a while.  No one else's guns handle that, either.

True, *however*, I have yet to hear of ANY other handgun which, short of
"blow up the gun" loads, sends a major portion of the gun flying directly
into the shooters face if the gun is "worn down" by large quantities of 
hot ammo.  I'd much rather risk shooting thousands of rounds of hot 
ammo out of a Glock than a Beretta.

#
##
##
##c. Does the 92 feed the popular hollowpoints without jamming?  
#
#Yep.  It feeds very reliably.  

So does mine.

#
##d. If you had to do it over again, would you choose the 92?
#

Nope; I'd buy a Glock.

#For a full sized gun, it is as reliable as they come.  Yes, I'd do it again.
#
#
#
#-- 
#
#Stan Young                                {emory, slammer}!pecanpi!syoung
#
From: kknox@logdis1.hq.aflc.af.mil (Kevin P. Knox)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: RE: Colt Sporter Models and Prices
Date: 26 Aug 92 02:14:19 GMT


#From:           rigg@ssdt-tempe.sps.mot.com (Dana Rigg)
Subject:        Re: Colt Sporter Models and Prices


# Perhaps some gun stores do sell the Competition HBAR in this fashion
# but I don't think it comes from Colt this way.  The handle is
# detachable with a weaver base milled underneath.  It doesn't come
# with the scope or rings (at least mine didn't).  The detachable
# handle allows you to switch quickly between iron sights and a scope.
# Because the handle comes off, the scope is not mounted high but at a
# more comfortable level.  You can also use weaver mounts!

Nay nay.  I just checked Southern Ohio Gun's latest sale paper.  They
are a Colt distributor and the HBAR comes from the factory with the
detachable handle.

# BTW, I paid $709 (+ tax) for mine last Friday.  It rained all
# weekend though so I didn't get to go out and play :-(

SOG's price on their HBARs are $649.95 dealer cost.  Rainy weekends
with a new outdoor toy are a real bummer!

Thanks. --- Kev

==(*)==  ==(*)==  ==(*)==  ==(*)==  ==(*)==  ==(*)==  ==(*)==  ==(*)==
|  Kevin Knox, Assistant DDN NSC            KKNOX@192.12.64.3        |
|  WPAFB 2046 Comm Group, BCTF                                       |
|  DSN 787-4088                  KKNOX@LOGDIS1.HQ.AFLC.WPAFB.AF.MIL  |
|                                                                    |
| "Time flies like an arrow............. Fruit flies like a banana!" |
|                                                                    |
|   "My opinions are my own and should  probably stay that way!"     |
==(*)==  ==(*)==  ==(*)==  ==(*)==  ==(*)==  ==(*)==  ==(*)==  ==(*)==
From: post@hpfcso.fc.hp.com (David Post)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Beretta 92 problems
Date: 2 Sep 92 20:55:23 GMT

PAUL N. RITTER:

 >                                    Anyway, their Baretta 9mm was U.S. made,
 >  and after every 3,000 rounds the armorors replace the slides and stuff. They
 >  said that the problem was with shooting 9mm carbine through the pistols. The
 >  instructor has one of his own and never had a problem with it. He claimed to
 >  have put around 6-8000 rounds through it.
 >    My point being, shoot the correct ammo through your guns, and you should
 >    never have a problem with it.

This bring to mind two questions:

Does this mean that the US military has you routinely firing the wrong
ammunition in your sidearm?

How can you tell the difference between 9mm carbine and 9mm parabellum?

OK, THREE questines:

What is 9 carbine used for in the military?

David Post  davep@hpfcpp.fc.hp.com  hplabs!hpfcla!post
From: minh@inst-sun1.jpl.nasa.gov (Minh Lang)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Ballistic software for Mac??
Date: 25 Aug 92 21:20:01 GMT
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory

Hi, I'm looking for a program that can calculate and plot bullet
trajectories
for any particular bullet/caliber/load combinations. I would appreciate
any
info.  Thanks.

  == Minh ==
From: HYD@PSUVM.PSU.EDU
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Info on Springfield P9's needed
Date: 2 Sep 92 19:05:02 GMT
Organization: Penn State University

Can anyone tell me about their experiences with Springfield P9s? Are they
reliable out of the box? Also how is their out of box accuracy? Do they compare
well to the original CZ-75s? I have a friend who is considering buying one and
would like to know if they are a good buy.

                                          Thanks,  Paul
From: efk00@cd.amdahl.com (Eddie Kieger)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: WANTED: Info &/or FAQ on getting FFL in CA
Date: 26 Aug 92 21:43:18 GMT
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA


Howdy:

I was told by an acquaintance (FFL holder) that the feds now require 
state approval for issueing FFLs (or something like that). Is there 
a FAQ about getting FFLs in CA?? Any other info would be appreciated 
as well.

Thanx, Eddie 

Don't tread on me..........................................I bite
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Eddie Kieger                             efk00@cd.amdahl.com 
For Pay:      System Design Engineer     Amdahl Corp.
              Bringing you better mainframe computers
For Fun:      "River Rat"                SBU-XI SPECWARGRU1 (USNR)
              Bringing hellfire and brimstone to a river near you!
From: erudnick@pica.army.mil (FSAC-SID)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: 13mm Mauser T-gewer
Date: 31 Aug 92 22:01:54 GMT


For Art Breslau

The T-Gewehr was the Tank-Gewehr anti-tank rifle. The Tank und Flieger
Abwehrwaffe was a machine gun firing the same cartridge intended to
be used against tanks and aircraft, as the name implies.

I have a live round; if you need dimensions let me know. I'll also think
about what more common cartridge you can use as a starting point.

I also have ONE primed but unfired case, so if you're desperate... :)

Drop me a line.


Ed Rudnicki     erudnick@pica.army.mil     All disclaimers apply
Protect the Second Amendment - boycott Ruger products
"That's not true," Bill hissed to his lawyer. "The facts are-"
"Don't worry about facts, Bill, no one else here does. Facts can't
alter this case."       -"Bill the Galactic Hero" Harry Harrison
From: jamison@hobbes.Corp.Sun.COM (& Gray)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: .40 s&w questions
Date: 26 Aug 92 22:58:12 GMT
Organization: Fun Microsystems, Inc.

In article <1992Aug25.235550.21651@nsc.nsc.com> nsc!jrr@decwrl.dec.com (Jerry Roe) writes:
   In article <9208191756.AA17991@relay1.UU.NET> gonzalez@bbn.com (Jim Gonzalez) writes:
   ##has taurus come out with a model 96 clone yet?
   #
   #Yes.  There was in an ad for it in American Handgunner, several months
   #ago.  It's designated the model 100, as I recall.  One thing about it,
   #and I think this is true of all Taurus clones of the Beretta, is that
   #they have a 3-position safety-decocker.  I forget the ordering of the
   #positions, but remember misgivings about hitting the safety too hard in
   #a tense situation and ending up with weapon unable to fire.

   Hmm.  I don't own any DA semi-autos, but when you have a DA pistol and
   de-cock it, isn't all that's required to fire it just simply pulling the
   trigger through?  

What Jim was referring to was a potential problem with the
decocking Taurus PT-92's.  The safety lever has three positions:
up for safe, straight for fire (like older 92's), and a third
lower position that decocks.  On mine at least, the lever does
NOT spring back to "fire" after decocking, but rather stays
in the lower position, which is essentially a second safety
position.  I don't think I would push it down that far in wiping
off the safety, but then I haven't been in any stressful
situations with it yet (knock on wood).

			-- Jamie


--
Jamie Gray, jamison@Eng.sun.COM        "I am the milkman of human kindness;
Sun Microsystems, Mountain View, CA     I will leave you an extra pint"