From: drk@melodian.cs.uiuc.edu (Dave Kohr)
Subject: Re: does david kohr KNOW an ad hominiem?
Organization: CS Dept., Univ. of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 21:24:53 GMT


In short, the problem is that drieux apparently does not know the meaning
of the term "ad hominem":

drieux writes:
> You pull out one fact about which KIM has good reasons to hold his
> opinion, and seek to use the TarBrush of AntiCommunism on him....

Setting aside for the moment the problem that there simply is no "fact" at
issue, drieux, what *precisely* does it mean to use the "TarBrush of
AntiCommunism" on someone?  How does it relate to pointing out that
someone's admitted biases might influence their selection of evidence and
their conclusions, which is ALL THAT I HAVE DONE?

Is there perhaps a related treatment involving the "TarBrush of
ProCommunism" which involves accusing those who point out abuses by the
former South Vietnamese governments of admiring and supporting the
Communist regime in the North, despite the UTTER ABSENCE of evidence to
that effect, AS YOU YOURSELF have done? Might one infer just a HINT OF
HYPOCRISY in your various accusations?

> I call you out for trying to be cleaver with an ad hominem attack

Let's see, drieux, my on-line Oxford English Dictionary has this definition
for "ad hominem":

	A phrase applied to an argument or appeal founded on the
	preferences or principles of a particular person rather than on
	abstract truth or logical cogency.

Keep in mind that I was making an "argument" (not an "appeal", because I'm
not saying anything like, for example, "Nobody should believe Kim's
postings"--but this distinction isn't that important) that Kim's admitted
biases will be reflected in his postings, and that readers who wish to get
a less biased picture should therefore take them into account.  This is an
argument which I don't think anyone will dispute.  What I was NOT doing was
saying, for example,  "Kim's statement that Ho Chi Minh had no sex life is
wrong because Kim is anti-Communist".

Now drieux, just what historical point in Kim's postings was I attempting
to refute via "ad hominem"?  What specific bit of evidence or reasoning of
his was I answering?

Let me give you a hint: THERE WAS NONE.

All I was doing was pointing out that he has a clear bias, and that it
should be taken into consideration when reading his posts if one is to get
a less biased picture of things.

So the definition of "ad hominem" just DOES NOT APPLY.

WHY DON'T YOU GET YOUR F*CKING DEFINITIONS STRAIGHT BEFORE YOU START
INSULTING PEOPLE!!!

As I have said several times before, give your fingers a rest and give your
brain a workout instead.

> you do not like the fact that I TarBrush you with being a Stooge of
> Communism.

Not only have you not established in the least that I am a "Stooge of
Communism", YOU ARE USING AD HOMINEM YOURSELF!  A superb example of
hypocrisy.

> Sorry that you are so slow in your thinking that i must explicitly draw
> it out for you.

AND YOU DREW IT WRONG!

In this instance, I am "slow" only to accept a conclusion which is simply
wrong.

In this instance, you don't even know the meanings of the terms you are
using to insult people.  So on top of inflicting on us your regular
mindless insarcastic drivel, YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT YOU'RE SAYING!

> I have tried to point you in the direction of corroborating evidence in
> the written medium in western sources, that will support kims position,
> and you wish to avoid all the facts and hold to the fantasies that were
> popular during the AntiWar movement.

Did it ever occur to you that I AM ALREADY FAMILIAR with the evidence Kim
has presented, but simply DO NOT REACH THE SAME CONCLUSIONS?

Your statement also begs the question of which "fantasies" of the anti-war
movement I have actually espoused; my postings certainly bear no relation
to the things of which you have unjustifiably accused me thus far.

> You shot yourself in the toe, now limp on out....
>
> ciao
> drieux

To the contrary, I think it is you whose glaring ignorance has been
revealed.
-- 
Dave Kohr     CS Graduate Student     Univ. of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Work: 3244 DCL, (217)333-6561  Home: (217)359-9350  E-mail: drk@cs.uiuc.edu
                   "One either has none or not enough."
Newsgroups: alt.war.vietnam,talk.politics.misc