HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: rtaraz@realsoon.WPI.EDU (Ramin Taraz)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: 9mm shootings (2)
Date: 13 Dec 92 23:12:31 GMT
Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute, Worcester, MA 01609-2280

callison> #Come on, of course if you put something in the barrel or at
callison> the end of #itand shoot a blank, the
callison> (what-ever-in-the-barrel) will fly, kinda #like a bullet!!
callison> #the gases comming out of a blank probably have the same
callison> speed and #pressure as a regular bullet shooting out a
callison> bullet, the only #difference is that they dont shoot
callison> anything.  #now, stand a few feet (maybe a few yards) away
callison> from the barrel and you #wont feel a thing, other that the
callison> sound and maybe a shockwave!  #please correct me if I am
callison> wrong.

callison> OK. You're wrong. :-) Blanks contain, if I'm not mistaken, a
callison> wad to take up the space normally taken up by the bullet.
callison> This wad is then fired out of the barrel at a velocity
callison> higher than said missing bullet (due to its significantly
callison> lower mass). So, in a .44Magnum blank we're talking, what,
callison> 2000fps? That's about a mile every 2.5 seconds or so (I
callison> think; I never did learn feet->miles conversions...), or is
callison> it a mile every 1.5-2 seconds? Anyhow, it's _fast._ It's
callison> much faster than the winds in a tornado (about 150mph, give
callison> or take, for a decent sized twister), and a tornado is
callison> capable of sending a daisy through a telephone pole. (I had
callison> a friend who'd actually seen this, when he went on a damage
callison> survey after a fairly average size tornado. He was suitably
callison> impressed :-) If you get hit with a projectile of any size
callison> at that velocity, it's gonna hurt. 

ok, let me take another shot at this. Just to see how many YOU ARE WRONG
replys I will get!

But due to the small mass, the object comming out of the barrel will
slow down pretty fast.  And that is what I was trying to say, from a
few feet away, that little piece (wax or what ever it is) will slow
down and wont hurt you as much.



callison> very hard substance, it's _probably_ not going to penetrate
callison> very well (the daisy has the advantage of being a thin,
callison> stiff projectile), but if it hits a weak spot, say, your
callison> temple, at close range, watch out...  Besides, at close
callison> range, you're going to get a non-negligible powder burn from
callison> the escaping gases/burning residue...


Of course, from a close distance (lets say point blank) it will
penetrate.
From: dnewcomb@whale.st.usm.edu (Donald R. Newcomb)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Denver Police shoot man
Date: 12 Dec 92 00:19:21 GMT
Organization: University of Southern Mississippi

In article <RTARAZ.92Dec10135616@bigwpi.WPI.EDU> rtaraz@bigwpi.WPI.EDU (Ramin Taraz) writes:
#You always can not see the police specially if you are in a tense
#situation. The police should really give the suspect a chance to
#respond to the new factor (police beeing on the seen).  The first
#thing to do when you hear a freeze is to turn around and see who said
#it.  that seems to be the most comon _reflex_, and usually in tense
#situations people don't think, they act on reflexes.

This incident was told to me as having occured to officer Hoda in Gulfport,
MS. It is hearsay but probably more factual than NBC news.

The officer responding to a call, challenged a man who was trying to break
into the rear door of a van. The suspect wheeled quickly discharging a
shotgun directly at the officer's chest. It is fortunate that the perp.
was a good shot, because the shot pattern was almost exactly centered
in the officer's body armor. With four broken ribs and severe soft tissue
damage, the officer returned fire with his service automatic, shooting
the perp. twice (once with one 15 round magazine, once with a second).
With things like this going on, I can understand why  the police have
a "shoot first" attitude. It ain't right but dead cops ain't right either.

When the judge questioned the officer why he thought it was necessary to
put 30 rounds into his assailant, the officer is said to have replied,
"Well your  honor,  he already shot me once, and it hurt. I didn't want
him to shoot me again."

BTW, the assailant's attack was effectively brought to an end and he
was taken into custody and delivered to the city morgue. So, I don't
think we need to hear any more about 9 mm not being good enough for
police work.
-- 

Donald R. Newcomb                * Life only admits two states: 
dnewcomb@whale.st.usm.edu        * growing and dying. So what,
newcomb@usmcp6.bitnet            * if I've put on a little weight?
From: vojak@icebucket.stortek.com (Bill Vojak)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: RE: guns in movies/tv
Date: 15 Dec 92 00:54:12 GMT
Organization: Storage Technology Corp.

C08926RC@WUVMD.Wustl.Edu (Rob) writes
##What kind of gun is a Gyrojet? Haven't heard of it here in the UK. What ammo
## does
##it use, muzzle velocity, etc? Email me with any wisdom.
#
#The Gyrojet was available as a handgun or a carbine back in the 1960s.
#The round it fired was basically a miniature rocket.  I can't post
#numbers, but I remember reading that it achieved peak velocity about
#50 feet downrange.
#
#One of the original inventers is producing new ammo for his baby, and
#it sells for $41/box of either 6 or 10 rounds (I don't remember).
#Original ammo starts at about $10/round.
#
#You can see a Gyrojet in use in an old James Bond film (memory lapse -
#can't remember the title offhand), or in Jay Leno's recent film,
#'Collision Course.'


 You mean Mr. Jay "HCI" Leno who during this film demonstrates some of
 the worst gun handling methods possible. (Cocks the revolver ever
 time he draws it.  Keeps his finger on the trigger of said revolver
 the entire time it's out of his holster)  I'm glad Jay Leno belongs
 to HCI.  Given his handling of firearms, the world will be a safer 
 place if HE doesn't own a gun!

                                Bill Vojak
                                Bill_Vojak@stortek.com
				NRA, ILA,
                                Colorado Firearms Collation

------------------------------------------------------------
The CBS Nightly Propaganda With Dan Rather. (RATHER NOT!)
The CBS Nightly Propaganda With Dan Rather. (RATHER BIASED!)
------------------------------------------------------------
From: n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: blow-back = harsher felt recoil?   (also CGtHandguns)
Date: 15 Dec 92 23:35:27 GMT
Organization: Western Washington University

My hypothesis is that yes, blow back action results in
a greater felt recoil that the same loads would have in
a revolver or a locking action of some kind.

The reason, I'd guess, is that in a revolver or in a pistol
where the slide is locked to the frame during the instant
of firing, you have the entire weight of the gun (frame + slide)
to dampen the felt recoil, whereas in a blow-back gun where the 
slide is not locked to the frame, only the weight of the frame itself 
is  putting up a solid resistance to the forces of pain.

The way I was thinking about it was: that felt recoil stems from

~((bullet mass*vel)**2)    
attenuated in the various guns by one of following:

(revolver)		 1/~(mass of entire gun)
(locked breech pistol)   1/~(mass of entire gun: frame, slide & all) 
(blowback pistol)	 1/~(mass of frame, etc, + only some
			fraction of slide mass)

Is this right? ( I seek to invoke the knowlege of John B. and
others here)
 
I was thinking about the subject while going over a great
book by Zelman and Neuens: Consumers Guide to Handguns, 1986,
which is a consumer reports type examination of 65 pistols
and revolvers available at the time.   It is a refreshing 
contrast to gun mags, and like CR, it has a chart showing how
they measure up to each other in a variety of areas, and also
an overall rating: what stinks and what doesn't, in their opinions.

Out of the 65, 10 got a "don't buy this gun" rating, and 36 got a 
"bad value" rating.   When's the last time you saw that in G&A?

It's a worthwhile buy, imo, and I hope they come out with a current
addition.

Anyway, in the recoil dept, some this got me on that track:
Recoil			Action		Recoil			Action
		.380s					.38s
Severe	18oz	AMT	blowback	Mod. 	21 oz	Taurus  revolver.
Severe	24 oz	Astra	blowback	Mod.	24.5 oz	Armscor
Mod.	20 oz	Bersa	blowback	Mod.	21 oz	RG
Mild	21 oz	Colt	locked		Severe  17 oz	Colt	
Severe  23 oz	PPK/s	blowback	Severe	17.5 oz	Charter	
		9mms			Severe	19 oz	S&W
Severe	26 oz	Det.	blowback
Mod.	28.5 oz SIG 226 locked	
Mod. 	30 oz	Star 	locked
Mild	34.5 oz	Berreta locked

Total weight seems not to be the biggest factor.
JD
From: grey@futon.SFSU.EDU (Herbert Leong)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: New Jersy Gun Laws
Date: 19 Dec 92 15:20:14 GMT


Does anyone knw waht the gun laws in NJ are like? I am visiting  
relatives in Verona and would like to bring over some firearms.

Some of the ones I am considering (will most likely bring only one or  
two): 


Colt Sporter, 16 and 20 inch barrels (.223 rem)
PWA commando (colt ar-15 look-a-like with 16in barrel) (.223 rem)
Ruger mini-30 (762x39mm), mini-14 ranch (.223 rem), 10/22  (.22 LR)  
(10/22 most likely will be the only one I bring--most harmless  
looking one I have :)
Springfield Armory M1A (.308 win)
Browning Citori (12 ga)
Mossberg 500 trophy slugster (12 ga)
Marin camp-9 (9mm) and model 94 (.44 mag/special)
IMI TimberWolf (.357mag/.38special)

Are any of the above considered "Evil" (TM) by New Jersy law?

(with my luck, they all are... Oh well, my relatives just won't be  
able to shoot (read: Abuse:) my rifles then... heh)

/herb leong
--
grey@futon.sfsu.edu
grey@wet.com

[Paste Standard Disclaimer Here]
From: post@hpfcso.fc.hp.com (David Post)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: 9x18 Makarov
Date: 15 Dec 92 13:30:05 GMT

Joseph Chow:

 >Couple monthes ago someone posted "Try Hanson", 
 >Anybody know "Hanson"'s Addr. and Phone# ?

Hanson Cartridge Company
244-246 Old Post Road
Southport, CT  06490

1(203) 259-5424

David Post  davep@hpfcpp.fc.hp.com  hplabs!hpfcla!post
From: bbx!bbxrbk!russ@unmvax.cs.unm.edu (Russ Kepler)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Rossi .357
Date: 17 Dec 92 12:17:46 GMT
Organization: /etc/organization

In article <9212151902.aa18352@claudius.pica.army.mil> erudnick@pica.army.mil (FSAC-SID) writes:
#James Douglas Del-Vecchio writes:
##What I _really_ like, above and beyond any other S&W revolver, is the
##625 3" or 4". The best caliber in the world, seemingly well made,
#
#I thought the 940 was the only 9mm revolver S&W makes :)

No, they made the 547 as well.  Nice revolver, but the extractor star
is prone to breakage.  I know because I have one - it was too cute to
pass up.  Shoots well too.

-- 
Russ Kepler, posting from home   bbxrbk!russ@bbx.basis.com
Will hack unix for food
From: rtaraz@realsoon.WPI.EDU (Ramin Taraz)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Denver Police shoot man
Date: 13 Dec 92 23:12:32 GMT
Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute, Worcester, MA 01609-2280

#>>>> On 12 Dec 92 00:19:21 GMT, dnewcomb@whale.st.usm.edu (Donald R. Newcomb) said:

It ain't right but dead cops ain't right either.

But most of time it is the cops that will be put on the stand.
I have respect for cops and what they do (although my car got towed
last night!!) I think they should be train more. 

If a cop is in a safe postions (behind a car or something, somewhere
that at leasts protects him a little) he could give the suspect a
little time to get his act together and then shoot.

dnewcomb> When the judge questioned the officer why he thought it was
dnewcomb> necessary to put 30 rounds into his assailant, the officer
dnewcomb> is said to have replied, "Well your honor, he already shot
dnewcomb> me once, and it hurt. I didn't want him to shoot me again."

I am not a great shot but I think I will be able to hit a person from
20 feet at least 5 out of 30!  (I dont know how many I could hit with
a couple of lead shots in my chest though!)


dnewcomb> BTW, the assailant's attack was effectively brought to an
dnewcomb> end and he was taken into custody and delivered to the city
dnewcomb> morgue. So, I don't think we need to hear any more about 9
dnewcomb> mm not being good enough for police work.  -
             
	good point!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|\///\\\/\///|                rtaraz@wpi.wpi.edu                /  Is today \ |
|\\//\\//\\//|       1988 EX500 (missed dearly until spring)    | a good day| |
|\\\/\///\\\/|       DOD # 0740  ||  Taurus PT-92AF             \  to die?  / |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: TTC103@PSUVM.PSU.EDU
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: If I was stranded on an Islanded & could only have 1 gun.. (was Re
Date: 12 Dec 92 00:20:00 GMT
Organization: Penn State University

Ruger Mini-30 (7.62x39) in stainless steel and a case of winchester soft point
ammo.
From: parker@cac.washington.edu (Michael Parker )
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Colt 1911 .45 ACP Manual - Please -
Date: 17 Dec 92 12:17:43 GMT
Organization: UW Computing

I own a generic Colt .45 ACP (a kit gun - with some Colt parts....random
Brazilian slide.....a reciever).  Anyway, it has been sometime since
it was assembled and seems to work fine.  In my immense wisdom, I 
completely disassembled it, cleaned it, and now am having a very difficult
time re-assembling it

Can somebody please recommend to me a very good book that covers just
about everything I could possible want to know about the 1911.  Stuff
from assembly to disasemmbly, part specifications and so on.

Please email responses.

Thanks,

Michael Parker

-- 
****************************************************

Michael W. Parker                       
Client Services/Student Consultant
Accademic Computing Center, HG-45
University of Washington
Internet:  parker@u.washington.edu 

****************************************************
From: fist@iscp.Bellcore.COM (Richard Pierson)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: RE: A gun in the home (UPDATE!)
Date: 17 Dec 92 18:59:32 GMT
Organization: Bell Communications Research (Bellcore)

The same people who sell those fire safes for home also
sell one that goes between the studs in a wall. It has
a 3 number combo and costs $90.00 complete. Takes about
10 minutes to cut the sheetrock and stick it in place with
4 screws. Just unlock it every nite before going to bed
and put it in the closet out of sight (above the doors is
a good spot)
-- 
##########################################################
There are only two types of ships in the NAVY; SUBMARINES 
                 and TARGETS !!!
#1/XS1100LH	#2/10/10/92
Richard Pierson E06584 vnet: [908] 699-6063
Internet: fist@iscp.bellcore.com,|| UUNET:uunet!bcr!fist  
#include <std.disclaimer> My opinions are my own!!!
I Don't shop in malls, I BUY my jeans, jackets and ammo
in the same store.
From: hes@unity.ncsu.edu (Henry E. Schaffer)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: dealing with a police officer
Date: 12 Dec 92 00:19:25 GMT
Organization: North Carolina State University

In article <viking.723973300@vincent1.iastate.edu> viking@iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson) writes:
# ...
#	Personally, I would place both hands behind my head and interlock
#the fingers when I got out of the car and before mentioning the gun.  This
#shows I am willing to cooperate.

  An NC Ass't Atty General (and ex-police officer) told me that when
talking through the drivers window that having both hands grasping
the steering wheel at 12 o'clock was a good non-threatening posture.
(While NC doesn't have CCW, one can have a firearm unconcealed in
the car.)

--henry schaffer  n c state univ
From: davidst@microsoft.com (David Steckler)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: AMT backup .380
Date: 15 Dec 92 23:34:20 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corporation

In article <6034@rosie.NeXT.COM> trose@NeXT.COM writes:
#
#
#I am looking for a small pocket pistol for occasional carry
#when belt carry isnot available.   I read an article on the 
#AMT .380 "backup".  The article was very positive.   From I
#have heard there first version of the backup was unreliable
#(the SA version).  Supposedly this new version (DA only) does a better
#job w/ QA.   Has anybody had any experince with the AMT?  I would like
#to decide soon so that I can get the pistol for under the tree!!
#

(Mr. Moderator, is there any chance of getting a FAQ in the near future? The
subject of gun recommendations comes up all the time)
	[MODERATOR: Yup!!! Finally ... I have an automated faq service
	 for firearms *now in test* here on campus.  Of course, once the
	 technology is completely shaken out, it will require lots of
	 volunteers to help shake out the many technical topics .... anyway,
	 posters who formulate nice, informational summaries on pet topics
	 should keep a copy yourselves so you have something to contribute
	 when we make the call for faq contributes.... :-)  ]

Let me repeat myself again: AVOID THE AMT BACKUP, EVEN THE DA MODEL.
Get a Walther PPK(/S) or a Colt Mustang. You'll be a lot happier. Check out
the discussion from a few months ago (and a few months before that, etc.)
for more discussion of small .380's. There's an ftp archive out there
somewhere(???); look through it. 

The basic line on AMT Backups (as well as my personal experience) is that
some of them work and some of them don't and you won't know which kind
you got until you get to the range. I traded mine in for a Walther PPK/S and
am very happy with it.

	...Dave
From: hes@ncsu.edu (Henry E. Schaffer)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: .32 H&R Magnum Brass ?
Date: 12 Dec 92 00:19:45 GMT
Organization: North Carolina State University


  Does anyone know where this can be purchased (other than as
part of Federal ammo?)

--henry schaffer  n c state univ
Xref: sparky rec.guns:18135 misc.forsale:33449
From: snguyen@orion.oac.uci.edu (Desperately Seeking Sarah!)
Newsgroups: rec.guns,misc.forsale
Subject: Timberland Ultralite hunting boots forsale
Date: 15 Dec 92 00:55:25 GMT
Followup-To: rec.guns
Organization: University of California, Irvine

I have a brand new pair of Timberland Ultralite size 10 forsale.
It's black leather and waterproof. Bought it last year for $150 
(plus tax) and never used it.  

Please email with offer if you're interested.

Son Nguyen
snguyen@uci.edu
(714)856-8415
From: C08926RC@WUVMD.Wustl.Edu (Rob)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: RE: A gun in the home (UPDATE!)
Date: 15 Dec 92 13:30:17 GMT


Thanks to all who replied to my 'A gun in the home' post.  Here's
what happened since then....

It seems I misunderstood my wife - she is now encouraging me to get
a pistol safe, and she doesn't mind me teaching my daughter at the
proper time.  She just doesn't want my daughter to know where the
guns are.

Here's the catch - she does not want a safe that uses a Simplex-type
lock.  What she wants me to get is a Bio-Scan safe - the kind that
scans your fingerprints.  I found their ad, which states that they
start at $157.95.  The maker is Bedford Technologies.

Does anyone have more info on these safes?


Rob
From: viking@iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: More newbie questions
Date: 16 Dec 92 03:09:03 GMT
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames IA

donb@igor.tamri.com (Don Baldwin) writes:

#For folks with kids, I was wondering how they handle the toy gun debate.
#[...] but I'm not sure how I feel about toy guns.  Part of me
#thinks that (my) kids should not have any (that they should have no slightest
#indication that guns are toys), part of me thinks it's a non-issue.  What
#do other people out there think?

	It's a non-issue.  Kids are remarkably adept at determining what is
a play toy and what is real, despite using your best Snap-On wrenches as
drumsticks.  It seems to me that they can be taught at a very early age
what is a real gun (do not touch) and what is a play gun (have fun).  This
is often reinforced by the play gun being given to them and kept in their
toybox, while the real gun stays in Daddy's closet safe.

	Give them a toy gun.  Then (after safe-ing it) let them hold your
real gun once.  Ask them what the differences are.  In addition to the
uncomfortable (to the child) weight, they will usually mention that the
real gun is dangerous, will kill, etc...

	I see a strong similarity between this issue and parents who
griped about violence in Warner Brothers cartoons, and in both instances
I feel the intelligence of the kids was taken far too lightly.  Certainly
kids aren't mature and should not be trusted with the responsibility of
gun ownership, but a plastic cap-gun or dart gun is entirely different,
and they know it.  I also note that the parents will be the only ones who
can tell just when their child is mature enough to handle the
responsibility of playing with any possibly dangerous toy or tool.

< Dan Sorenson, DoD #1066 z1dan@exnet.iastate.edu viking@iastate.edu >
<  ISU only censors what I read, not what I say.  Don't blame them.  >
<  "This isn't an answer, it's a pagan dance around a midnight fire  >
<   written in intellectual runes." -- Rich Young                    >
From: ryanm@stein.u.washington.edu (Ryan Mcneilly)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Use of Lethal Force in the Defense of a loved one.
Date: 12 Dec 92 00:19:29 GMT
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle

In article <viking.723973300@vincent1.iastate.edu> viking@iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson) writes:
#ryanm@stein.u.washington.edu (Ryan Mcneilly) writes:
#
##I earlier posted an answer about this question taking the above position
##but not stating it clearly.  I agree fully with the imediate above.  If
##you are asked to get out for any reason then inform the officer and expose
##the weapon (DON'T REACH FOR IT).  --Ryan
#
#	"Good afternoon, officer.  What seems to be the problem?  I
#didn't come to a full stop back there?  Certainly I'll show you my
#license and registration.  Get out of the car?  Of course.  Just so you
#don't get suprised, I have a Colt 1911 in a shoulder holster under my
#left armpit, and the permit is in my wallet in my right rear pocket.
#You're welcome to examine each -- I don't want to cause you any problems."
#
#	What do you bet you're given a warning?  It's amazing how a
#polite person does when clearly guilty but keeps the officer from having
#a bad day.  Make their life easy, and they'll return the favor most times.
#
#	Personally, I would place both hands behind my head and interlock
#the fingers when I got out of the car and before mentioning the gun.  This
#shows I am willing to cooperate.
#
#< Dan Sorenson, DoD #1066 z1dan@exnet.iastate.edu viking@iastate.edu >
#<  ISU only censors what I read, not what I say.  Don't blame them.  >
#<  "This isn't an answer, it's a pagan dance around a midnight fire  >
#<   written in intellectual runes." -- Rich Young                    >


I would agree fully with your suggestion.  Thanks for completing my point :)

--Ryan

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
  Ryan McNeilly                    Internet: ryanm@u.washington.edu
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

"You can't deal from a position of weakness"  --Alfred Thayer Mahan
Moral:  Protect the 2nd Amendment!

My comments and opinions are my own and nobody elses!!!!!