From: dgp@atlas.wustl.edu (Don Porter)
Subject: Re: Fetal Heartbeat (Re: Supreme Court)
Organization: Washington University, St. Louis Mo.
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 03:49:31 GMT

>}<1992Jul21.004136.9063@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> (Galen J. Hekhuis) writes:
>}> I thought we went over this before.  In the majority of abortions, 
>}> there isn't even a "heart" to stop beating.  

<1992Jul21.163226.12832@wuecl.wustl.edu> (Don Porter) writes:
>} My sources say different.  Rather than argue the point directly, I'll 
>} simply ask you:  When does the human heartbeat begin?

<1992Jul21.190634.5054@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> (Galen J. Hekhuis) writes:
> To be brief, the heart develops at a slightly variable time.
> Exactly when it becomes a "heart" is dependent largely on 
> your definition of "heart."  

Of course.  I'd hoped to avoid playing semantic games, though.
That's why I did not ask about the "heart" per se, but about the 
heartbeat.  You know, the rhythmic twitching of cardiac muscle that 
begins in the fourth week (i.e. after three weeks have passed) of 
gestation and doesn't cease until death.

> I've asked around here, and 
> they say 14 days is stretching it a bit, to say the least.  
> But I have also heard it asserted in this group that the 
> heart is developed in 14 days.  Though I don't believe that,
> lets go ahead and use that figure for the sake of argument.
>
> You say your sources don't agree.

My sources agree with everything you've said so far.  This seems
like a good time to post them:

From _A Child I Born: The Completely New Edition_, by Dr. Lennart 
Nilsson and Dr. Lars Hamberger.  Delacorte Press/Seymour Lawrence,
New York, 1990.  ISBN 0-385-30237-1, p. 75.
====================================================================
  "As early as three weeks after fertilization, parts of the
future human body can already be identified. ...
  "The embryo still does not look human.  When the menstrual
period is just over a week overdue, a head is barely perceptible
surrounding the brain, with a large, gaping mouth opening.  
Immediately below the head, the embryonic heart is beginning to 
be formed and to beat."
====================================================================

The title of the following section (p. 77) is "The heart starts
beating".  On page 79, there is a photo of an embryo.  The caption
has the title "Four weeks" and in the description says "Its
heart pumps blood to the liver and into the aorta."  So by the end
of the fourth week, there is not only a heartbeat, but actually
blood for it to pump.  The heart is actually performing its
circulatory function by this time.

If this layman's refernce is not good enough for you, Bruce 
Cameron has posted a similar (though more phrased in medical
jargon) description with more technical references.

My second source is the root of our disagreement:
__________________________________________________________________
From: eeb1@ellis.uchicago.edu (e elizabeth bartley)

The percentages were for women obtaining legal abortions in the U.S. 
in 1985.  Source: U.S. Dept. of Health and Human Services, Centers for 
Disease Control.  

Weeks gestation   Percent of abortions
  8 and under             50.8
     9-10                 26.2
    11-12                 12.3
    13-15                  5.9
    16-20                  3.9
  21 and over              0.8
____________________________________________________________________

Obviously, I can not speak for Gregory Clausen, but when I use
"abortion" here and when I see "abortion" used here, there is
no doubt in my mind that what is being discussed is induced 
abortion.  If this usage is good enough for the CDC, it's
good enough for me.

In order to get to "the majority of abortions", we have to
go all the way up to 8 weeks, several weeks after there
is a beating heart for the abortion to stop.

[ At this point Galen goes on at some length pretending he
doesn't understand that "abortion" commonly means "induced
abortion" (Or does he really think all the picketers are
protesting natural wastage?).  He then goes on to accuse
Clausen of playing semantic games to produce a catchy slogan. ]

>I would suggest, however, that "abortion" is hardly the 
>"cut-and-dried" term that many people wish it were.  

Actually most of us participating here seem to be able to use
it without any trouble.  You are the one who seems to be having
difficulty.  From this end it looks like you are the one
playing semantic games, simply for the opportunity to call
a political opponent an ignorant liar.

I'm sorry, Galen.  I thought you were simply trying to correct 
an error of Clausen's.  I didn't know you were setting yourself
up to go on a semantic safari against the "life begins at
conception" crowd.  If I'd known that was your game, I wouldn't
have played.

But since it seems to be so important to you to make the point
that many, many conceptions don't lead to babies, and many
don't even get to have beating hearts, I'll help you out.
Here's something posted last year which confirms exactly that:

__________________________________________________________________
From: tas@pegasus.com (Len Howard)

Just to get some hard data into this discussion, at the Feb 19, 1991 
postgraduate course on Perinatal Medicine, Daniel R. Mishell Jr., MD
Professor and Chairman of the Department of OB/Gyn at USC presented
a repeat of one of his favorite topics, Recurrent Pregnancy Loss, Why
does it happen?
   The first slide is always a Life Table for Intrauterine Mortality
in the Human (per 100 Ova exposed to risk of Fertilization)

The bottom two lines are:
     Live births (including birth defects)         31%
     Natural Wastage                               69%

16% are not fertilized, 15% fail to cleave, and 27% fail to implant for
31% failure in the first week.  By 14 weeks, 32.4% are continuing as
normal pregnancies (and 67.5% have passed off in some fashion or another)
__________________________________________________________________

|   Don Porter | dgp@saturn.wustl.edu | Washington University in St Louis   |
|  "The effect of liberty to individuals is, that they may do what they     |
|   please; we ought to see what it will please them to do, before we       |
|___risk congratulations." -- Edmund Burke._________________________________|
Newsgroups: talk.abortion,alt.birthright,alt.abortion.inequity