HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: renglish@cello.hpl.hp.com (Bob English)
Subject: Re: Bronstein - Deep Thought Games
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 21:00:14 GMT
Organization: Hewlett Packard Labs

worley@hplabsz.hpl.hp.com (Bill Worley) writes:
: These games are fast, fun, and not-so-serious...

If I might add my own perspective...

David has been playing very sharply, in many cases more sharply than the
positions warrant.  Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.  On more
than one occasion, David achieved positions that he felt very good
about, but then was unable to find a win within the time limit.  In some
cases the wins were there, in some cases they were not, but he was happy
to create the chances.

He told me many times that he has a great deal of respect for
chess-playing computers.  Many times, he said that if he were playing a
human, he would know that he was winning, because the human couldn't see
the position any better than he could, but he was always a little unsure
against DT, because it defends so well.

--bob--

P.S. On the closing blunder, he said Qf5, and I played Q to bishop 5.
My apologies to everyone watching the game who missed what should have
been a fine finish.
Newsgroups: rec.games.chess
From: dimmen@hsr.no (Kjetil Dimmen)
Subject: Re: Bronstein - Deep Thought Games
Organization: Rogaland University Centre
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 13:46:19 GMT

In article <1992Nov16.234132.25548@hplabsz.hpl.hp.com>, worley@hplabsz.hpl.hp.com (Bill Worley) writes:

	[deleted]
> 
> Incidentally, the words:
> 
> "D.  - some people say I have too high
> self-esteem.  They may be right, but at least I have good reason to."
> 
> which appeared at the bottom of the games posting were not from David,
> but from the poster (Kjetil Dimmen).  A statement of this sort would be
> totally out of character for David.

The abovementioned sentence is indeed my current .signature. (And should be
read with an ironic smile on your lips.) The "D" refers to the first letter
of my last name. I did not at any moment consider that this could be
interpreted as a reference to David. If any such misinterpretation has been
made, I apologize. And while I'm at it, I'd like to thank David for these
fantastically entertaining games. Thanks.
-- 
D.    - Some people say I have a too high self-esteem.
They may be right, but at least I have good reason to.
Newsgroups: rec.games.chess
From: hwr@intercal.com (Hanon W. Russell)
Subject: Review: Inside Chess
Organization: Chessnews list (chessnews-request@tssi.com)
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1992 00:17:27 GMT


                           INSIDE CHESS
                        November 23, 1992
                        Volume 5, Issue 23

The latest issue of "Inside Chess" finishes its coverage of the 
Fischer-Spassky match. Games 23-30 are covered with thorough 
annotations; they are great and underscore the main and 
continuing strength of "Inside Chess" - Reportage of the games 
and personalities of the royal game on an unequalled schedule of 
every two weeks.

Alas, this is offset by Yasser's rather incredible assertion in 
the second paragraph of his editorial on the first page that 
Bobby is indeed the world champion?! One gets the distinct 
impression that this matter is presented by the editor just as 
the beer commercial which ends "It's it and that's that!" Yaz, 
despite all this, you and the Seattle staff put out a great 
magazine. Please, come back to us.

IM Jon Tisdall has a good report of the recently completed 
Nordic Zonal held last July and August in Ostersund, Sweden. 
Norwegian GM Simen Agdestein finished first ahead of Swedish GM 
Ferdinand Hellers and Icelandic GM Johann Hjartarson.

This issue is also chock full of ads, and this is good. It shows 
that the publication is beginning to attract financial support 
from a source other than subscriptions. Of particular interest 
is a full page ad heralding the "Yasser Seirawan Chess School 
for Children" at Marian College, Fond du Lac, Wisconsin, June 19 
through June 26, 1993. We will try to monitor this development 
and report back with further information.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
INSIDE CHESS, PO Box 19457, Seattle, WA 98109
    Editor: GM Yasser Seirawan
    Managing Editor: Michael Franett
    Associate Editor: IM John Donaldson
    Frequency of publication: Bi-weekly, 26 times/year
    Page size: 8.5"x11"
Regular departments:
    Editorial
    Letters
    Inside News
    Tactics by IM Nikolay Minev
Subscription information (U.S. subscriptions):
    6 months, 13 issues, $25
    1 year, 26 issues, $45
    2 years, 52 issues, $80
    3 years, 78 issues, $110
-----------------------------------------------------------------
This review reflects the opinion of and is proprietary to Hanon 
W. Russell. Copyright 1992 Hanon W. Russell, All Rights Reserved
From: mginsbur@rnd.GBA.NYU.EDU (Mark Ginsburg)
Newsgroups: rec.games.chess
Subject: Re: gaprindashvilli's strengt
Date: 16 Nov 92 15:58:31 GMT
Article-I.D.: rnd.32720
Organization: NYU Stern School of Business

Newsgroups: rec.games.chess
Subject: Re: gaprindashvilli's strengt
Summary: 
Expires: 
Followup-To: 
Distribution: 
Organization: NYU Stern School of Business
Keywords: 

Bill Hyde writes:
>
>	I don't think your experience means much.  In the Cochrane, white
>	gets two pawns, deprives black's king of easy shelter, gets
>	a broad centre, etc.  We don't have to agree that it is sound
>	to agree that it's a long way from white starting without
>	a knight.
>
>	My USCF rating (two years old) was 2159 and I'd be happy to
>	receive knight odds from a GM, in a series of games played for
>	a reasonable stake.  I'm sure I'd manage to lose a substantial
>	fraction of the games, but not half.  Of course I'm talking
>	about tournament time controls here - at speed chess or even
>	G/30 the knight would count for much less.
>
>	On the other hand if like you I was defending the black side
>	of the Cochrane against the chowmeisters, I'd consider myself
>	lucky not to lose every game.  Even if white doesn't quite
>	have enough compensation (debatable) it's just the kind of
>	complex position where the superior judgement and analysis
>	of a GM/IM crushes the likes of us.
>
>						Bill Hyde


Bill is correct.  As I said before, IM Larry Kaufman ran a better 
experiment where six masters (avg. rating about 2340) took on six
experts (avg. rating about 2030), spotting the exchange (masters took
off QR, experts took off QN).  Since some of the masters could not
alter their style to suit the odds, the masters lost rather one-
sidedly, 2-4.

As for the current status of the Cochrane, IM Bernard Zuckerman wants
to play me a blitz match, he'll be black, and he thinks the Cochrane
is totally unsound.  I'm not so sure:  cf. _Chow_ article, "Stormy
Petroff" - I think Vitolinsh-Dautov is the last word and that's
about =/+.

-IM Mark Ginsburg
Newsgroups: rec.games.chess
From: "gordon mazur" <gordon.mazur@canrem.com>
Subject: gaprindashvilli's strengt
Reply-To: "gordon mazur" <gordon.mazur@canrem.com>
Organization: Canada Remote Systems
Distribution: rec
Date: 16 Nov 92 23:47:53 EST

In article <1992Nov12.120340.17373#husc3.harvard.edu>, fry@zariski.harvard.edu (
David Fry) writes:
In article <199211.4184.12671@dosgate> "gordon mazur" <gordon.mazur@canrem.com
 writes:
 >All this is irrelevant though. I don't think Fischer could give N odds to
 >any one over 1900 then or now. I don't think he would lose every game, but
 >I'm sure he would lose every match.

> This is a little crazy. I won't argue about 2300's versus Fischer
> minus knight, but 1900?? Either you're underestimating Fischer (or any
> GM), overestimating a knight, or overestimating what it is to be a
> 1900 player.  I'm a 1900-2000 player, I know Fischer would whip my butt
> easily without a knight.
>

EK>I have to agree that a knight probably won't do an A player any good
EK>against a player of grandmaster strength. I happened to be in the
EK>same room with the  three "Chow meisters" Illya Gurevich, Mark Ginsberg,
EK>and Joel Benjamin. I was silly enough to challenge Mark's opinion that
EK>the Cochrane gambit was not unsound. I took the black side (the side
EK>that gets the knight) and proceeded to lose something like 31 games
EK>in a row (the "chowmeisters" taking turns drubbing me). I still don't
EK>quite believe in the Cochrane, but I have a lot better idea of what a
EK>strong player is. My rating is now 1972 and peeked at 2095. They didn't
EK>have much trouble with me...

EK>                                        -Ed Knowles

OK ok I went to far. But I still don't think you have to be 2300 to be
able to beat a G with a N. Maybe the magic # is 2000. But the Cocharane
at blitz isn't exactly the same thing Ed. To begin with you've got 2
P's & a safer K.                             gordie
---
  SLMR 2.1a  
--
Canada Remote Systems  - Toronto, Ontario
World's Largest PCBOARD System - 416-629-7000/629-7044
Newsgroups: rec.games.chess
From: rivin@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (Igor Rivin)
Subject: Re: Fischer - Polgar/Kasparov update
Organization: Computer Science Department,  Stanford University.
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 23:22:35 GMT

In article <1992Nov19.173847.21921@cbnewsj.cb.att.com> edd@cbnewsj.cb.att.com (ed.knowles) writes:
>[...]
>
>FLAME ON
>   To suggest that two respectable grandmasters who have competed fairly
>    and with integrity should be cheated out of their shot at the world
>   championship by some racist has-been is unconscionable and ignorant.
>FLAME OFF
>
>

While I feel no great sympathy for Fischer's politics, they have
absolutely nothing to do with his right, or lack thereof, to compete
for the world championship. Likewise his age (as in "has-been") is
hardly relevant. I believe that ad hominem attacks such as yours show
at least as much ignorance as you attribute to others.






Newsgroups: rec.games.chess
From: clinto@sys-mgt.mentorg.com (Clinton Wittstruck)
Subject: The Chess Show
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 02:41:45 GMT
Distribution: oregon
Organization: mentor_graphics
Keywords: show
Followup-To: 

An invitation for all cable subscribers in the Portland Oregon metropolian
area to watch "The Chess Show" Friday Nov. 20th 8:30-9:30pm on public access
cable channel 11 (in most areas).

clinton_wittstruck@pdx.mentorg.com
producer
From: peskin@staff.tc.umn.edu (Yury Peskin)
Subject: Re: pawn promotion
Organization: University of Minnesota
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1992 00:52:48 GMT

In article <19413@ucdavis.ucdavis.edu> lim@toadflax.cs.ucdavis.edu (Lloyd Lim) writes:
>There are situations where you might want to promote to a knight.
>Are there any reasons why you'd promote to a bishop or rook?
>The obvious answer is no, but I wanted to check to make sure.

Hello.  Here is a position where promotion to bishop is the only winning
method:

8 k . . . . . . .
7 b . . . N . . .
6 K . P . . . . .
5 . . . . . . . .
4 . . . . . . . .
3 . . . . . . . .
2 . . . . . . . .
1 . . . . . . . .
  a b c d e f g h

p.s. According to the story White drew, overlooking 1 c7 Bb8 2 c8B!.

>
>+++
>Lloyd Lim                    Internet: lim@cs.ucdavis.edu
>Lim Unlimited                America Online: LimUnltd
>330 W. Iris Ave.             AppleLink: LimUnltd
>Stockton, CA  95210-3738     CompuServe: 72647,660


-- 
==============================================================
We The Willing, Led By The Unknowing, Are Doing The Impossible
For The Ungrateful.  We Have Done So Much For So Long With So
Little, We Are Now Qualified To Do Anything With NOTHING.
Newsgroups: rec.games.chess
From: "gordon mazur" <gordon.mazur@canrem.com>
Subject: deept-bronstein game 18
Reply-To: "gordon mazur" <gordon.mazur@canrem.com>
Organization: Canada Remote Systems
Distribution: rec
Date: 23 Nov 92 00:45:17 EST

In the 18th Deep Thought - Bronstein game, the folowing position
would have been reached without the final operator input error.
      +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
      | r |   |   | k |   |   | r |   |  8    Black is up a piece for
      +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+       2 pawns & has White's K
      | p |   |   |   | n | p |   | p |  7    & Rh1 tied up nicely.
      +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+       Black however is tying up
      |   |   |   | p |   |   |   |   |  6    a lot of his own forces
      +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+       to accomplish this.
      |   |   |   |   | P |   |   |   |  5    I was interested in what
      +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+       the winning plan would be.
      |   |   |   | P |   |   |   | q |  4
      +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+       Black threatens Ne7-g6-f4
      |   |   | P |   |   | P | p | b |  3    Bh3-g2xh1. White not only
      +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+       has to prevent this by
      | P | P |   |   | B |   |   | n |  2    taking on f4 with his B he
      +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+       has to have the B backed
      | R |   | P | Q |   |   | K | R |  1    up else it's over quickly:
      +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+       25.ed6? Ng6 26.Be3 Nf4
         a   b   c   d   e   f   g   h        27.Bf4 Qf4 (Qe3 mate next)
                                              28.Qc1 Nf3 29.Bf3 Qf3
when A) 30.Rh3 Qf2 31.Kh1 g2 32.Kh2 g1=Q Mate
     B) 30.Qd2 g2 31.Rh2 Qf1 33.Rf1 gf1=Q Mate

Putting the Q in front of the B with 26.Qd2 prevents this but leaves
White even further from untangling ie: 26...Re8 27.b3 Nf3 28.Bf3 g2
29.Bg2 Re1 & it's over.

So from the diagram the following sequence is more or less forced:
25.Be3 Ng6 26.Qd2 h6 (The Be3/Qd2 setup clears the 1st rank for the Ra1
& is prefferable to a setup with Qc1) White now has to be able to prevent
a possible Qh4-e7, Ng6-h4, Bh3-g2xh1 so we seem forced a little further:
27.Bh6 Kd7 28.Bg5 Qh7 when Black still plans Ng6-h4 & there is little
White can do to prevent it: 29.Re1 Nh4 30.Bh4 Qh4 31.ed Kd6 32.Bd1 Nf1
when both A) 33.Qc1 g2 34.Rh2 Nh2 35.Kh2 Bf5
          B) 33.Rf1 g2  lead to a quick end.

This analysis leaves plenty of room for improvement but can anyone save
DT from from it's ultimate fate of toast?
---
  SLMR 2.1a  
--
Canada Remote Systems  - Toronto, Ontario
World's Largest PCBOARD System - 416-629-7000/629-7044
Newsgroups: rec.games.chess
From: mike@uhunix.uhcc.Hawaii.Edu (Mike W. Burger)
Subject: Living Chess
Organization: University of Hawaii
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 23:20:51 GMT


	The idea of living chess is very old. Edgar Rice Burroughs
in his 10 (or 11 depending upon how you count them) books about the
empires on Mars, described in detail a game called Jetan (spelling
may be a bit off, it has been a long time).  This was basically
chess, but as I recall played on a 10x10 board.  It was played in
two versions, a boardgame version for recreation, and a full size
version using living armies in an arena for mass entertainment.
	It was definately bloodsport.  After each move involving
a "capture", there was a fight either to first blood drawn, or
to the death depending upon the importance of the game, for who
retained control of the square.  There was an appendix in the
fifth book of the series "The Chessmen of Mars" which described
each of the pieces and how they moved.  The game was "played" by
each army commander who occupied the equivalent place of the
King.  I blieve the objective was not to capture the King,
but another piece identified as the Princess.
	It would be interesting to find out if a live "chess"
game has ever been played in reality to the death.  It is an
obvious idea.  Given the prediliction for bloody recreations of
the middle ages, such a game may have been organized and played.
From: carsten@pizza.fb10.tu-berlin.de (Carsten Schultz)
Newsgroups: rec.games.chess
Subject: Re: Endgame databases
Date: 17 Nov 1992 16:40:09 GMT
Organization: ZRZ/TU-Berlin
Distribution: world
Reply-To: carsten@pizza.fb10.tu-berlin.de (Carsten Schultz)
NNTP-Posting-Host: pizza.fb10.tu-berlin.de

Herbert Pohlai E185/1 +43158801/4464 writes
> In article <1992Nov16.234338.2241@cs.cornell.edu>, chinch@cs.cornell.edu  
(Shirish Chinchalkar) writes:
> |> Can someone tell me how much space is needed for the endgame  
databases
> |> (for instance 6 piece endgames). If I understand correctly, an  
endgame
> |> database is a table of "number of moves to mate" for each position  
involving
> |> the given pieces (in case of pawns, promotion needs to be  
considered). If
> |> that is indeed the case, for a 6 piece endgame (with no pawns), the  
number
> |> of positions is approximately 2*10*64^5, exploiting symmetry in  
placing first
> |> piece and considering W to move and B to move as two different  
positions.
> |> Assuming 1 byte per position (some endgames require 200+ moves), we  
are
>                                                ==================
> 
> You have to compute only up to the first capture, then switch to
> another database. This way, only few positions require more than 40  
moves.
> (As far as I know, KRkn is an example. Anyone out here with exact  
figures ???
> 
> But the length of the endgame is not relevant at all;

Well, you get a log n factor.

> only the positions are stored with pointers to other positions.

You don't need any pointers. Knowing the number of moves needed to mate or  
get to an easier (less pieces) won game is necessary. And you can restrict  
the stored positions to, say, black to move.

> So you have only 2 pointers/position (white/black's optimal  
continuation);
> the length of the pointer chains does not affect the memory usage.
> 
> |> talking of approximately 20 Gbytes of storage. Isn't this too much?  
How have
> |> KRNknn databases been constructed?
> |> 
> |> Also, for 5 piece endgames, it would require approx 300 Mbytes of  
storage for
> |> each endgame. Can these databases be compressed significantly? Can  
someone
> |> give me a few numbers illustrating space requirements?

I was recently able to play with nearly all 5 pieces endgames. They took
2 CDs.

> |> 
> |> How many research/commercial computers use such databases? Are only
> 
> The program CheckCheck (sp?) for MSDOS PCs (commercial product) uses  
such databases. It was tested in the german magazine 'Computerschach und  
Spiele'
> some time ago.
> 
> |> non-trivial endgame databases stored? (since several endgames have
> |> a large material imbalance).
> |> 
> |> Thanks.
> |> 
> |> Shirish.
> 
> -- 
> Herbert Pohlai     herbert@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at

Indeed the data on the CDs I mentioned above are not copyrighted.  
Unfortunately I forget who published them.
Isn't there a nice soul out there on the internet having a spare CD ROM  
and wanting to set up an endgame server?

Carsten
From: lim@toadflax.cs.ucdavis.edu (Lloyd Lim)
Newsgroups: rec.games.chess
Subject: Re: pawn promotion
Date: 22 Nov 92 01:36:23 GMT
Organization: Department of Computer Science, University of California, Davis

In article <19413@ucdavis.ucdavis.edu> lim@toadflax.cs.ucdavis.edu (Lloyd Lim) writes:
>There are situations where you might want to promote to a knight.
>Are there any reasons why you'd promote to a bishop or rook?
>The obvious answer is no, but I wanted to check to make sure.

OK, thanks everyone for flooding my mailbox reminding me about stalemate.
I get the point now, thanks.

+++
Lloyd Lim                    Internet: lim@cs.ucdavis.edu
Lim Unlimited                America Online: LimUnltd
330 W. Iris Ave.             AppleLink: LimUnltd
Stockton, CA  95210-3738     CompuServe: 72647,660
Organization: Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
From: wp01jst1@ucsbuxa.ucsb.edu (John Tomas)
Newsgroups: rec.games.chess
Subject: Re: Fischer's Strength
Date: 23 Nov 92 21:49:22 GMT


As I recall, Korchnoi didn't even have 20 seconds left when he played
55 Be4?: he was down to a few seconds.  None of the blunders in FSII
were produced in time-pressure of that sort.  More important than the
tactical blunders were the positional mistakes which F made during the
match.  I think you would have a hard time coming up with as many in 
all of the world championship games played in the last 20 years!
From: wp01jst1@ucsbuxa.ucsb.edu (John Tomas)
Newsgroups: rec.games.chess
Subject: Re: Fischer's strength
Date: 15 Nov 92 19:57:39 GMT


Really Bruce, the ability to assess chess strength is directly related
to chess results: because that is what you are asking for, not chess
strength at all when you ask for titles etc.  If you can demonstrate to
me that there is such a relationship (not suggest it, but *demonstrate*
it), then I would be happy to agree with you that the things you are
asking for are central.  But in fact I know an FM (2340 FIDE) who 
suggests regularly that players without his "qualifications" know more
about chess (or at least as much) than he does.

Secondly, I suggest that you reread Sven's posting since you clearly
didn't understand it very well.  I see nothing in it to suggest that
Sven was calling Yassar's integrity in to question.  He did not claim
that Yassar was deliberately inflating his opinion of F's play for 
personal gain.  What he said was that Yassar tends to ignore elements
which don't fit into his notion of Bobby's place.  He is hardly the
only commentator to suggest this.  I myself believe it, and I have the
utmost respect for Yassar.  I have my own blind spots.
From: nash+@cs.cmu.edu (Richard Nash)
Subject: Searching For BF on Cinemax
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 14:07:36 GMT

This morning while flipping through the chanels and eating my Wheaties I
noticed an interview of a guy standing in front of two people playing blitz.
I paused to watch. From what I gather the interviewee was the author of
Searching for BF. They talked about the movie breifly, I think I missed most
of the interview.

Anyway, the only new news that I heard is that it will be opening early
next year.

Rich
-- 

Richard V. Nash
nash@vi.ri.cmu.edu
Newsgroups: rec.games.chess
From: jrb@Ingres.COM (John Black)
Subject: Re: pawn promotion
Organization: Ingres, an ASK Company, Alameda CA 94501
Date: 20 Nov 92 18:58:35 GMT

>>In article <19413@ucdavis.ucdavis.edu> lim@toadflax.cs.ucdavis.edu (Lloyd Lim) writes:
>>>There are situations where you might want to promote to a knight.
>>>Are there any reasons why you'd promote to a bishop or rook?
>>>The obvious answer is no, but I wanted to check to make sure.
>>>
>>
>>I would guess that you might want to promote to a rook or a bishop to avoid
>>a stalemate that might occur if you promoted to a queen.
>>
>>-David Oliver (doli@troi.cc.rochester.edu)
>>
>

The most beautiful underpromotion problem I've ever seen is the Saavedra
example (which I won't describe... it's quite well-known).  A highly contrived,
but interesting puzzle was composed by Ernest Pogosyants:

				
   +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
 8 |   |...|   |...|   |...|   |...|
   +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
 7 |...|   |...| P |.P.|   |...|   |
   +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
 6 |   |...|   |...|   |...|   |...|   
   +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+  
 5 |.P.|   |...|   |...|   |...| p | 
   +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
 4 | b |...|   |...|   |...|   |.p.|    
   +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+   
 3 |...|   |...|   |...|   |.k.| P |  
   +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ 
 2 |   |...| P |...|   |.p.|   |...|
   +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+   
 1 |...|   |...|   |...| B |...| K |  
   +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ 
     a   b   c   d   e   f   g   h  


The solution follows (try and solve it if you want)...

1.  d8(N)  Be8      (White couldn't make a queen because of Bc6+)
2.  a6     Bg6
3.  e8(R)  Bxe8     (if 3. e8(Q) then 3. ... Be4+ leads to stalemate!)
4.  a7     Bg6
5.  a8(B)

and White wins!!  All three underpromotions in the same puzzle! 

john//
jrb@ingres.com
(1695 USCF)
Newsgroups: rec.games.chess