HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: monaghan@cac.washington.edu (Tracy Monaghan {IS})
Subject: Re: What was the Apple of Discord?
Organization: UW Computing
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 19:20:16 GMT

In article <brein-300992092823@128.149.100.150> brein@gpvax.jpl.nasa.gov (Barry Rein) writes:
>Does anyone know about the Apple of Discord?  What did it do?  Who gave it
>to whom? For what?
>Please reply to alt.mythology, or directly to my e-mail address below.
>

(Disclaimer:  The following is based on faulty memory)

At a dinner party, attended by Zeus, Hera, Athena, and Aphrodite, Eris
(the god of discord who was NOT invited) tosses a golden apple onto the table.
On the apple is inscribed "To the most beautiful" (or some such).

Hera, Athena, and Aphrodite all claim the apple is meant for themselves,
of course.

Zeus being all-wise, would not get mixed up in this.  He sends Hermes to
find some (fool) to decide.

Hermes comes upon Paris, Prince of Troy, who is tending some sheep.  Hermes
convinces Paris to adjudicate this problem with a proviso from Paris:  The
three must disrobe so that he can judge fairly.  For some reason they agree
and come to him one at a time.

Each offers Paris various bribes.  Aphrodite promises the hand in marriage of
the most beautiful (mortal) woman, Helen.  Paris rules in favor of
Aphrodite (otherwise we wouldn't have a story, right?).

Paris sails off to Greece, escorts Helen back to Troy, and the rest, as
they say, is history.



------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tracy Monaghan: arithmetic-mean, melanin-deficient, gender-advantaged
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: mikeb@tvnews.tv.tek.com (Mike Boyce)
Newsgroups: alt.mythology
Subject: Re: Fire and Prometheus
Date: 6 Oct 92 11:58:39 GMT
Organization: Runciter Inc. makers of Ubik, the high priced spread.

In article <92279.164844U52539@uicvm.uic.edu> U52539@uicvm.uic.edu (--- BORYS ---) writes:
>
>    Can someone tell me the myth of Prometheus and how / why he stole fire?

Wow, good question man. Ya see, there was this dude Prometheus who was like
the ultimate in cool. And he saw that man-dudes didn't have fire but the
god-dudes (and dudettes) had mucho fiero. So like, Prometheus said to 
himself, why can't my friends the man-dudes have fire when it should be
free, the gods are totally bogus. So he sneeks some fire back to his mortal 
buds and says to not spread it around too much or like he could get busted. 
And they do!  (like we couldn't have seen that coming.) And the god-dudes 
are like royally pissed, for some reason. So they grab Prometheus and tie 
him up so this really big hungry bird can like eat his liver everyday, but 
it grows back at night so that Prometheus is living this really bad trip.
Wow is that a bummer or what? I think that those oldtime greek dudes were
telling us to be careful with fire no matter how cool it looks. Not sure
what the liver thing means. Hope this helps man.

I knew that high school mythology class would come in handy someday.
Be excellent to yourself and your myths.
Your bud,
Mythos Mega Kahuna

:^(=(v: Janus     0^| Cyclops     
Organization: Freshman, H&SS general, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: alt.mythology
Date: Fri,  2 Oct 1992 00:45:47 -0400 
From: "Adam M. Donshik" <ad2u+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: mystisism. and what follows


Two things.  One I am looking for more information about mystisism in
the Grecian society.  Two, what was the name, of the condemed man whose
punishment was to roll a rock up a hill for all eternity, and what did
he do?  O.k. next question, although it is not mythology, could anyone
give me a direction to move toward pertaining to Jungian psychology.

Now for something completely different.  Are there any good accounts of
the Parsifal legend, other than the Bulfinch's one?  

If any one could respond, I would be greatly abliged.

adam m donshik
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Date: Monday, 5 Oct 1992 17:25:40 CDT
From: ---  BORYS  --- <U18588@uicvm.uic.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.mythology
Subject: Virgins vs Women

      An interesting tidbit...

       To the primitive Man,  a female was considered a virgin until
she actually gave birth.  It did not matter how often or how early on she
had sexual intercourse.   This way of thinking that a woman becames
a "woman" is the effect of Judeo-Christian values and morals trying to
curb sexual 'promiscuity'
From: brein@gpvax.jpl.nasa.gov (Barry Rein)
Newsgroups: alt.mythology
Subject: What was the Apple of Discord?
Date: 30 Sep 92 16:32:15 GMT
Followup-To: alt.mythology
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory

Does anyone know about the Apple of Discord?  What did it do?  Who gave it
to whom? For what?
Please reply to alt.mythology, or directly to my e-mail address below.

Thank you very much in advance.

******************************************
*       Barry Rein                       *
*       brein@dsfvax.jpl.nasa.gov        *
******************************************
*       No clever comment.               *
******************************************
Newsgroups: alt.mythology
From: schrist@vms.macc.wisc.edu (Sara Christiansen)
Subject: Talamasca
Organization:  University of Wisconsin Academic Computing Center
Date:  1 OCT 92 16:23:00    


	I would be interested in the information about the female orders
attached to the Templars. Specifically those involved in fighting.

					Sara
					schrist@macc.wisc.edu
Newsgroups: alt.mythology
From: clu@linus.claremont.edu
Subject: Re: Cult of Saint Nicholas
Organization: Harvey Mudd College
Date: 6 Oct 92 20:23:12 PDT

In article <92279.165621U52539@uicvm.uic.edu>, ---  BORYS  --- <U52539@uicvm.uic.edu> writes:
>    I am studying Ukrainian/East Slavic Mythology and have come across
> some interesting stories about St. Nicholas.  Does anyone out there
> have any stories about St. Nicholas, such as the tales about his adventures
> in performing heroic tasks?
> 
> 
> inquiring mind....
> 
> Borys Bodnaruk
>   u18588@uicvm.uic.edu  or
>   u52539@uicvm.uic.edu

Are we looking for the same St. Nicholas who passed out gifts at the Yule
season?
Newsgroups: alt.mythology,rec.games.frp,alt.horror
From: swv3752@ritvax.isc.rit.edu
Subject: Re: Talamasca
Reply-To: swv3752@ritvax.isc.rit.edu
Organization: Rochester Institute of Technology
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 19:17:40 GMT

In article <Bv5q8D.Mun@nntp-sc.Intel.COM>, mdouglas@cad067.NoSubdomain.NoDomain (Maria Douglas ~) writes:
>In article <tapestry.717448958@camelot>, tapestry@camelot.bradley.edu (Brian Petree) writes:
> Alvin Valentine writes:
> 
>  >Anne Rice's book the Queen of the Damned mentions a secret sect
>  >affiliated with the Knights Templar called the Talamasca.  Did this group
>  >ever exist?  Have any clue about it?  Is it just a product of Rice's mind? 
> This brings up one more question.
> The Talamasca is a vital part of THE WITCHING HOUR also.
> With the seemingly in depth historical bases for Rice's work, are her
> works taking place in the same universe.
> Keep in mind that in one of the first two VAMPIRE novels she mentions
> Ramses the damned as being a vampire or something like one....then a
> book. 
> Anyone else feel this way?

I would assume that 'THE WITCHING HOUR', 'The Vampire Novels', and 'THE MUMMY' 
are set in the same world.  The head of the Talamasca (I forget his name) is
the same guy in both 'HOUR' and 'QUEEN', and vampires are mentioned in 'HOUR'.
In one of the Vampire books it is mentioned that there is an immortal who walks
the day by the name of Ramses.  Fairly conclusive proof that they are one and
the same world.  As I am in the Library here with nothing to do I might check
out the Talamasca.  I might suggest that anyone else who interested in this
might check Anne Rice's other non-fiction works.  Might be something in there,
she also has written under some psuedonyms, but like usual I have forgotten
what they were.

						 -Morning Reaper
Newsgroups: alt.mythology
From: scarrobi@shearson.com (Steve Carrobis)
Subject: Re: Talamasca
Reply-To: scarrobi@shearson.com
Organization: Lehman Brothers, Inc.
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 13:41:06 GMT

   I might suggest that anyone else who interested in this
> might check Anne Rice's other non-fiction works.  Might be something in there,
> she also has written under some psuedonyms, but like usual I have forgotten
> what they were.
> 
> 						 -Morning Reaper


well that would be nice .. but most of her non-fiction as u call it is PORN!

she writes und3er the name Anne Rampling.....

 enjoy people...

just a hint thats why her Vampire/mummy novels are so SSEXUAL in nature ... 

 Steve C.
From: kbest@doc.novell.com (Karl Best)
Newsgroups: alt.mythology
Subject: Re: It was mythical
Date: 2 Oct 92 13:53:30 GMT
Organization: Novell, Inc.

In article <1992Oct02.022625.100826@watson.ibm.com> yozzo@watson.ibm.com (Ralph  
Yozzo) writes:
> In article <1992Oct1.195146.5727@nntp.uoregon.edu> JBrandt@AAA.UOregon.EDU  
(Laurie E. W. Brandt) writes:
> >A trivia contest
> >   Please list the name of the thing that was mythical, who proved it to be
> I believe that "King Arthur" falls into this category.  There are a couple
> of recent books on the subject.  However, I do not have the titles handy.

The book is _The Discovery of King Arthur_ by Geoffrey Ashe (1985, Holt, New  
York, ISBN 0-8050-0115-8). (I just finished it, so its still at my desk.) Ashe  
is, according to the blurb on the cover, "The first to locate a plausible and  
historically recorded candidate." 

He has linked the Arthur of legend to a king Riothamus that is historically  
recorded, ~470 AD, who likely had a castle at Glostonbury and/or Cadbury  
(Camlann or Camelot), and took an army into Britanny where he met his end. He  
does a good job of linking the two, and gives examples of others in history who  
have had two names just to show that both names are equally valid. He doesn't  
do a very good job, though, of showing why Arthur, as opposed to anyone else,  
became such a big hero in legends and is popular to this day; Arthur/Riothamus  
was really just another of hundreds of local kings through the ages. 

--
Karl Best                              Far away, across the field
Novell Tech Pubs           ...  __o    the tolling of the iron bell
Provo, Utah  801-429-3428 ..   -\<,    draws the faithful to their knees
kbest@doc.novell.com      ...(_)/(_).  to hear the softly spoken magic spell
karl_best@novell.com                      -Roger Waters, Pink Floyd
Newsgroups: alt.mythology
From: jeb@cray.com (John Bergquist)
Subject: Re: Jung (was mystisism. and what follows)
X-UserAgent: Nuntius v1.1.1d9
X-XXMessage-ID: <A6F739CB69010A4A@oahu.cray.com>
Organization: Cray Research, Inc.
Date: 6 Oct 92 12:39:35 CDT
X-XXDate: Tue, 6 Oct 92 18:40:43 GMT

In article <1992Oct5.165123.18425@Csli.Stanford.EDU> Clayton Glad,
glad@Csli.Stanford.EDU writes:
>Jung believed neither that there is some nebulous central repository
>of human memory, nor that people are born with the archetypes and 
>symbols in question imprinted upon the unconscious (two common 
>misrepresentations).  Rather, he spoke of the collective unconscious
>as *potential*.  That is, it's just a property of human unconscious that
>it tends to produce these particular sorts of images, themes and symbols.
>
>So it's not so much what we "know in common" as it is a function of
>having the same unconscious potentialities.  In other words, we don't
>find Achilles to be a compelling character because our ancestors read
>about him for thousands of years, but because the story of the Hero
>is one which is naturally produced and recognized by our
unconsciousnesses.

Thanks.  That's an important distinction to make.

It's good to see some positive, helpful discussion on Jung in this group.
 Other basic books I would recommend are Jung's _Analytical Psychology: 
Its Theory and Practice_ (the Tavistock Lectures); _A Guided Tour of the
Collected Works of C.G.Jung_, by Robert Hopcke; _An Introduction to
Jung's Psychology_, by Frieda Fordham; and _The Psychology of C.G. Jung_,
by Jung's associate Jolande Jacobi.  The latter two books had Jung's
blessing, as stated in forewords by him.  The Hopcke book might be the
best place to start.  It's very readable and has clear,
easy-to-understand definitions and explanations of Jungian terms and
concepts.
From: U52539@uicvm.uic.edu (--- BORYS ---)
Newsgroups: alt.mythology
Subject: Fire and Prometheus
Date: 5 Oct 92 21:48:44 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago


    Can someone tell me the myth of Prometheus and how / why he stole fire?
From: cranmer@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu
Newsgroups: alt.mythology
Subject: Re: mysticism. and what follows
Date: 3 Oct 92 17:28:04 EDT

Hello,

Adam M. Donshik <ad2u+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes...

> Two things.  One I am looking for more information about mystisism in
> the Grecian society.

Hmm, do you mean mysticism or mythology?  If you mean the latter, there
are multitudes of good books around.  If you mean the former, try the
pre-Socratic philosphers (c. 500 BC) for some tradition-breaking thought.
Also check out the various mystery cults that flourished in Greece in
ancient times:  the Eleusian and Samothracian mysteries, the Orphic
tradition, and the Delphic oracle and its 'Pythian' mystery sources.
There is a new newsgroup, alt.religion.sabean, which our site still does
not carry, that may be of help here.

> Two, what was the name, of the condemed man whose
> punishment was to roll a rock up a hill for all eternity, and what did
> he do?

Well, I remember that Ixion was chained to a fiery wheel or something, but
I can't recall that guy.  Most of these stories involved some kind of 
'impudence' against Zeus, I believe.

> O.k. next question, although it is not mythology, could anyone
> give me a direction to move toward pertaining to Jungian psychology.

Although my first impulse is to recommend reading Jung himself, this has
two drawbacks:
 (1) he wrote *a lot*.
 (2) his prose can be a bit, hm, sleep-inducing at times.  Very dry.

There are many books out there that explain/extend Jung's ideas, so I
could recommend one of them.  But there is one book that Jung himself
worked on (and died in the middle of editing, if I have it right), that
was intended to be a 'coffee-table'-type book, with lots of color pictures
and things, that was designed to be a layman's introduction to Jung's
ideas about mythology and archetypes.  It was published anyway, but I
can't recall the exact name.  _The_Mythic_Imagination_ possibly?
Something like that.  It'll be the biggest and nicest-looking book in
the Jung section of a good bookstore or library.
 
> Now for something completely different.  Are there any good accounts of
> the Parsifal legend, other than the Bulfinch's one?  

Try _Parzival_, a  13th-century epic poem by Wolfram von Eschenbach.  There
should be a Penguin paperback version.  Joseph Campbell talks a lot about
this in the 4th volume of his _Masks_of_God_ series.
____________________________________________________________________________
   "Hold your fire -- Keep it burning bright,
    Hold the flame 'til the dream ignites --
    A spirit with a vision is a dream with a mission!"   - N. Peart

                                  Steve Cranmer
                                  cranmer@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu
Xref: sparky alt.mythology:1853 alt.horror:4267
Newsgroups: alt.mythology,alt.horror
Subject: Re: Talamasca
From: t00022@TIGGER.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU
Date: 3 Oct 92 09:34:42 -0600
Reply-To: t00022@TIGGER.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU
 <tapestry.717448958@camelot>,<Bv5q8D.Mun@nntp-sc.Intel.COM> 
 <1992Sep28.191740.6943@ultb.isc.rit.edu>,<1992Oct1.031916.5403@nntp.uoregon.edu>
Organization: St. Cloud State University, St. Cloud, MN

In article <1992Oct1.031916.5403@nntp.uoregon.edu>, JBrandt@AAA.UOregon.EDU (Laurie e. W. Brandt) writes:
>In article <1992Sep28.191740.6943@ultb.isc.rit.edu>,
>swv3752@ritvax.isc.rit.edu writes:
>> 
>> In article <Bv5q8D.Mun@nntp-sc.Intel.COM>, mdouglas@cad067.NoSubdomain.NoDomain (Maria Douglas ~) writes:
>> >In article <tapestry.717448958@camelot>, tapestry@camelot.bradley.edu (Brian Petree) writes:
>> > Alvin Valentine writes:
>> > 
>> >  >Anne Rice's book the Queen of the Damned mentions a secret sect
>> >  >affiliated with the Knights Templar called the Talamasca.  Did this group
>> >  >ever exist?  Have any clue about it?  Is it just a product of Rice's mind? 
>
>    This paticular group is in all probability a work of fiction, but like
>most modern fiction writers is based loosly on fact, very loosly.  I have
>just moved several hundred miles and my research books etc.is still being
>un packed. I have seen references to the female order attached to the
>Templers and who one of the prioress was.  There were a number of womens
>fighting orders during the middle ages. Would you be intrested in more of
>this material when I do find it?
>Pegasus

	I would like to hear more about these women's fighting order.
                                                       
                                                          Fledermaus


Xref: sparky alt.mythology:1828 rec.games.frp:25199 alt.horror:4179
From: rbhardin@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu (Ron Harding)
Newsgroups: alt.mythology,rec.games.frp,alt.horror
Subject: Re: Talamasca
Date: 28 Sep 92 16:42:18 GMT
Organization: University of Waterloo

Alvin Valentine writes:

   >Anne Rice's book the Queen of the Damned mentions a secret sect
   >affiliated with the Knights Templar called the Talamasca.  Did this group
   >ever exist?  Have any clue about it?  Is it just a product of Rice's mind?

The Knights Templar show up in "The Illuminatus! Trilogy" which I'm reading
now.  Does this mean that the Talamasca is a division of The Illuminati?
Geez, that damn Illuminatus thing just blows my mind more every day.

=============================================================================
 And the Germans killed the Jews          | Ron Harding
 And the Jews killed the Arabs            | rbharding@descartes.uwaterloo.ca
 And the Arabs killed the hostages        +--------------------------------- 
 And that is the news
 And is it any wonder that the monkey's confused?
          Roger Waters, _Amused_to_Death_
=============================================================================
From: lizi@ocf.berkeley.edu (Cosma R. Shalizi)
Newsgroups: alt.mythology
Subject: Re: mystisism. and what follows
Date: 4 Oct 1992 01:16:16 GMT
Organization: Vampire Research Group at Berkeley :)
NNTP-Posting-Host: whirlwind.berkeley.edu

In article <gemxDvW00WBOA8ruEs@andrew.cmu.edu> "Adam M. Donshik" <ad2u+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
>
>Two things.  One I am looking for more information about mystisism in
>the Grecian society.
   Try any standard history of philosophy - I'm partial to Russell, as my
.sig shows, but there are many other good ones, and Will Durant's _The Life
of Greece_ (vol. 2o f _The Story of Civilization_) is excellent.

>Two, what was the name, of the condemed man whose
>punishment was to roll a rock up a hill for all eternity, and what did
>he do?
   JUST THIS ONCE: The man was Sisyphos. He seriously annoyed the gods - who
ELSE condmens people to eternal torment in Tarterus? My memory for the
details is hazy, which brings me to the main point.
   THERE ARE LIBRARIES OUT THERE, YOU KNOW. You post from an edu site;
Carneige-Mellon, if memory serves. It should have a rather good one. There
are many, many, many handbooks, dictionaries, summaries, etc. of classical
and other mythologies. They can be used without taking up net bandwidth.
They give you the full story, usually with all the surviving variants, not
the bare outlines as cobbled together from half-a-dozen net.memories which
heard the tale years ago, and (in most cases) without layering seventeen
different implausible "meanings." Part of your fees are already going to
keeping those libraries going - even to replacing those reference books.
Do you want to throw that money away?
   Hmpf. Well, perhaps that was a bit grouchy, but really, is the idea of
looking things up really so recondite?
 
>O.k. next question, although it is not mythology, could anyone
>give me a direction to move toward pertaining to Jungian psychology.
   Eh?

>Now for something completely different.  Are there any good accounts of
>the Parsifal legend, other than the Bulfinch's one?  
   If you're into to that sort of thing, Joseph Campbell goes on about
Parsifal _ad nauseum_ in _Creative Mythology_. There's a Penguin 
translation of Eschenbach's (? sp?) _Parzival_ which is decent, but hardly,
IMNSHO, riveting.

>adam m donshik

	Cosma Rohilla Shalizi
	In Real Life: lizi@ocf.berkeley.edu
	larval physicist & recoved Campbell addict
THE STARS ARE RIGHT: CTHULHU IN '92! WHY SETTLE FOR A LESSER EVIL?
-- 
"Some savages are persuaded by the 'natural light' that it is their duty to
 eat people, and even Voltaire's savages, who are led by the voice of reason
 to hold that one should only eat Jesuits, are not wholly satisfactory."
-Bertrand Russell on Rousseau in _A History of Western Philosophy_, p. 694
From: mmussell@fmgu25.intel.com (Morgan Mussell ~)
Newsgroups: alt.mythology
Subject: Re: mystisism. and what follows
Date: 5 Oct 92 16:13:20 GMT
Organization: Intel Corporation, Santa Clara, CA USA

>  O.k. next question, although it is not mythology, could anyone
>  give me a direction to move toward pertaining to Jungian psychology.

Perhaps the best general intro is still _Man_and_his_Symbols, by Jung and
   Von Franz.  Contains about 4 long, informative and illustrated essays, 
   the first by Jung himself.  
   
I would also strongly recommend Jung's autobiography, _Memories, Dreams,
Reflections_.  Kind of gives the living experience behind the development
of his theories.  Pretend you are a young MD working at an asylum in an
uptight, pre-WWI Prussian culture, and you start having the same vivid
imaginal experiences you've heard from your schizophrenic patients --
what do you do?  Jungian psychology is what Jung did.  His way of trying
to make sense of the experience, and make room for the reality of the
psyche, in the psychology of a culture that had tried to shut it in the
basement for several centuries.

For anyone already grounded in the basics of Jungian thought, I'd strongly
recommend _Re-visioning Psychology_ (at least the intro and first essay), by
James Hillman, or _Archetypal Psychology_ also by him.

I find Hillman and some other "post-Jungians" taking up an important challenge
for depth psychology, in feisty, thought provoking, and challenging ways.  The
challenge is, how can the core of depth psychology be re-imagined to speak to
the needs of contemporary culture, when madness beyond the ken of Jung's
schizophrenics jumps at us every evening on the 6 o'clock news, and the secret
wet dreams of Freud's Viennese patients are the stuff of sitcoms, accompanied
by laugh tracks?

>Now for something completely different.  Are there any good accounts of
>the Parsifal legend, other than the Bulfinch's one?  

Someone already mentioned the prime original, _Parzifal_ by Wolfram von
Eschenback (sp?).  Also an earlier text, though not nearly as satisfying by
contemporary literary standards (coherent plot, etc) is _Peredur_, an episode
in the Mabinogian.  And I don't know if you can stomach or read through
Joseph Campbell's long and winding commentaries, but one of the best of those,
and one of the ones I could stomach and finish and enjoy, is on Parsifal,
comparing it with the legend of Tristan and Isolde, in _Creative Mythology_.


Morgan Mussell          mmussell@mcd.intel.com
Newsgroups: alt.mythology
From: JBrandt@AAA.UOregon.EDU (Laurie E. W. Brandt)
Subject: It was mythical
Organization: The Polyhedron Group
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 92 19:51:46 GMT

A trivia contest
Since the start of the the modern era (ca 1500) how many mythical places
and amimals have been proven to exist now or in the past. Such as the Okapi
or Troy.
   Please list the name of the thing that was mythical, who proved it to be
real and the date when that proof was first presented to the general
public.  this will allow others to follow up if they so choose.

Laurie E. W. Brandt 
Newsgroups: alt.mythology