HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: maarrrk@ruapehu.Caltech.Edu ( Mark Alan Erickson)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Aikido(Re: Crush and maim (was: How to choose...))
Date: 14 Apr 92 17:09:17 GMT
Article-I.D.: ucsbcsl.4172
Reply-To: maarrrk@ruapehu.ece.ucsb.edu ( Mark Alan Erickson)

In recent postings to rec.m-a some very good points about Aikido are
raised.  As a lurker and aikidoka I'd like to respond to some of the comments.

First, I'll be the first to agree that we do practice techniques that are
responses to fully, perhaps dangerously, committed attacks, rather than
cagey (say like a jab) attacks;  also, many of us have attacks that aren't
all that great, say, compared to a good shotokan reverse punch.

The point about SOME aikidoka lacking courage of their convictions
is a very good one;  I think it stems from the fact that many people
who practice, shall we say, more percussive arts give the impression
that they believe that unless the defender can destroy the attacker 
the defense is inferior.  I'd have to say that as a battlefield or back 
street combat art that is a valid viewpoint.  I myself strive to avoid 
conflict and hope that I'll never have to actually throw someone in a 
serious fight.  On the other hand, If I do anytime soon, I'll probably 
damage the attacker (perhaps even with a punch or elbow strike) since 
I'm not good enough yet to execute flawless techniques, and I'll want
to survive the attack.

It is important to realize that  Aikido is derived from techniques that 
were designed to quickly incapacitate trained, sometimes armed, opponents on 
the battlefield in feudal Japan. In the recent republication of
Budo, O'Sensei's (Ueshiba Morihei, the founder of Aikido) 1938 how-to, 
there are still many strikes evident.  The techniques in the book aren't 
really different from those taught to us in class today.  What I think  
O'Sensei did when he created Aikido was specifically modify and develop 
techniques in order to give the Aikidoka the option of not damaging the 
attacker.  The potential is still there, however.  In response to 
an attack, an accomplished aikidoka can respond with the attitude that,
"You've attacked me;  I MAY have to hurt you,"  rather than, "I WILL
have to hurt you." 	 

I'll finish by noting that recently I was uke for my sensei as he
demonstrated a technique for the class (ryotetori tenshi-nage), and
while explaining a point about the technique he "forgot" to hold
anything back.  The wave of power that literally engulfed me was
truly incredible.  Fortunately, my ukeme (falls) are pretty good, so
I survived unscathed.  I was left with a newfound appreciation
for the power that can be developed by the martial path that I've 
chosen to follow. 

It may take me thirty years to develop that kind of power, but I've
got a lifetime...

Finally, when considering criticism of other styles of martial arts,
remember that, "The mountain does not chide the river for being lowly,
nor does the river disparage the mountain for being immobile."

--maarrrk
From: minhtri@ccc.amdahl.com
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: 2 questions
Date: 8 Apr 92 16:16:51 GMT
Organization: Amdahl Corporation - Macrocode Development


1.  The most effective areas to aim your kick is the solar plexus, and the
ribs.  In addition you can also attack the opponent's leg by aiming at the thigh, about 1 foot above the knee on the side.  It's not practical to attack the front of the knee (unless the opponent keeps his knees locked, which is
very unlikely).  Now, about not having time to stretch before a real fight, 
if you aim at those points that I mention above, you'll find that you do not
have to stretch as much.  In addition, why do you think your master makes you
stretch every day?  If you spend about 30 minutes each day for stretching, 
believe me, in roughly 3 - 5 years, you do not need to do any more stretching.

2.  What should go through one's mind while sparring?  Nothing should go
through your mind while sparring.  You are supposed to pay attention to 
your opponent.  Look at your opponent in the eyes, not at his feet nor the 
center of his body.  Before your opponent attack you, he will glance at the 
point that he is aiming at.  You can verify this for yourself.
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: sasso@flounder.phy.anl.gov (John F. Sasso)
Subject: Re: On choosing a martial art
Organization: Argonne National Laboratory
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1992 22:58:43 GMT

In article <1992Apr10.194432.12814@nic.unh.edu> D_NOLAN@unhh.unh.edu (David J Nolan) writes:
>
>Ahem.
>
>I see a lot of Aikido branding going on out there ;>
>
>...I see a lot of people "wondering where to start" in the MAs
>and I have to leave my $0.02
>
>First of all, I see some people wanting Jiu-Jitsu or Aikido 
>"techniques" because they don't want to damage people.
>
>Any technique (with minimal exceptions) can be used to either
>subdue an opponent without permanent damage OR kill them, OR
>worse.
>
>Aikido demonstrations usually are an impressive display involving
>three our four attackers each taking their turn against a 
>competent practitioner; they usually wind up either politely 
>guided to the mat or tumbling off in another direction, up 
>agian, attacking again, and the cycle continues until it's clear
>nobody is going to touch the bad boy in the middle.  ;<
>
>Ever throw someone who *didn't* know anything about landing (except
>that you DO INDEED hit the planet)??  Most muggers and assailants
>I've dealt with don't have the first clue what to do when their a**
>is traveling faster than their head (and higher).
>

Aikido demonstration are one thing.  Have you actually practiced in 
an Aikido class?

Why do experienced Aikidoists "flow" with the attack?  Simple.  It's
that or be seriously damaged.  If your up in sankyo or nikyo
(I know, the ohmygodmywristdoesntbendthatway tachniques three or
two) you will not struggle with the attack if you want to be able
to practice again.

People (on occasion, I don't want to Flame here) complain that
Aikido Uke (the one thrown) do not resist the throw.  Maybe this is
for the OPPOSITE reason that most think.  They do not resist because
in Aikido we do not "pull our punches," as it were.  Every throw
and twist is practiced (past beginning level) for full effect.
Take a nose dive, or have your nose broken.

We practice with weapons.  Jo and Bokken.  That weapon is swung at
Nage's head.  There isn't even any concept of pulling the blow if
Nage does not get out of the way.  (Again, not for beginners!)
Everything is full tilt.

The first thing to learn in Aikido is how to survive in a non-beginner
class.  Then you can start learning technique.


						John F Sasso




-- 
"The only way to true inspiration is the study of TedDo.  And lots
of MauMau, of course."  The Elvis Lectures
"I am not the False Bob, I am a free man."  The Book of FalseBobs
"Since the introduction of MauMau, HP sales have skyrocketed." Book of MauMau
From: mary@Cayman.COM (Mary Malmros)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Taekwondo
Date: 6 Apr 92 13:37:24 GMT
Organization: Cayman Systems Inc., Cambridge, MA
In-reply-to: Kevin_Deane@mindlink.bc.ca's message of 4 Apr 92 22:08:47 GMT


In article <11240@mindlink.bc.ca> Kevin_Deane@mindlink.bc.ca (Kevin Deane) writes:

   Those of you who are interested in Taekwondo will want to read this.  There are
   two magazines out that have excellent articles about TKD.  They are very well
   written and seem to be very accurate.  The magazines are Taekwondo Times and
   Inside Taekwondo.  This months TKD Times gives an excellent history of TKD and
   the misconceptions of it being called Korean Karate, which it isnt.  So pick up
   a copy today.  If anyone wants to know where they can get a copy send me a
   message and I will give you phone numbers or fax numbers to order it.  Each is
   2.75US.  


I agree re: TKD Times, but I read the first issue of Inside Taekwondo and
thought it was solid Cheez Whiz (Velveeta?).  Jumping turning side kick
to the head as a counter to a reverse punch, INDEED!  

Anyway...my impression (from that one issue, granted, haven't bought
any more) was that Inside TKD was the _Black Belt_ of the taekwondo world.
--


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Mary Malmros     | Cayman Systems Inc, 26 Landsdowne St, Cambridge, MA 02139
 mary@cayman.com  | Phone 617-494-1999  Fax 617-494-5167  AppleLink CAYMAN.TECH
From: twcaps@tennyson.lbl.gov (Terry Chan)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Dougie-Poo
Date: 16 Apr 92 22:23:47 GMT
Article-I.D.: dog.22772
Reply-To: twcaps@tennyson.lbl.gov (Terry Chan)
Organization: Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.3.12.117

In article <1992Apr11.203048.25152@walter.cray.com> radner@cray.com 
	(Lauren Radner) writes:
 +>In article <1992Apr8.205312.8062@uwm.edu> ninjam@csd4.csd.uwm.edu writes:
 +>
 +>allready, come over to Milwaukee tap your foot three times 
 +
 +.... I thought it was "click your heels three times"... oh, no, wait...
 +        ....that was to get to *Kansas* ....

No, no, Lauren.  It's supposed to be "Knock 3 times on the ceiling", 
otherwise it's twice on the pipe.


Terry "Music is my life" Chan
--
================================================================================
INTERNET:  twchan@lbl.gov              BITNET:  twchan@lbl.bitnet
  "I think it's stupid. We collect all these business cards, and it turns
                    out nobody wants them."
From: Kay Stanley
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Meaning?
Date: 9 Apr 92 18:31:56 GMT
Organization: UNC OIT CS

>In article <1992Apr4.214555.28668@u.washington.edu>  
>ngqtuan@milton.u.washington.edu (Tuan Nguyen) writes:
>>  Last night, when we were in the sitting position doing sort of like
>>meditation before MA class, it suddenly occured to me that I don't know why
we
>>are doing what we usually do.  I mean we have to sit down on 

I have been doing a lot of reading about meditation and its effects on  health.
 One book I came across explained the posture this way:

 "Formal Zen Meditation Instructions:
        ...The important thing is to find a posture that is comfortable for
you.  Although the research suggests that the full or half-lotus position is
the posture with the least muscle tension for experienced Zen masters, it is
usually not the most comfortable for those in the West who are beginning to
practice meditation.
         Further, the studies of Akishige and his colleagues have suggested
that the attitude of the meditator is more important than the actual physical
posture or the environment.  Alpha brain waves occurred in subjects who had the
'right' attitude, even if they were not in the lotus position.  Conversely,
those who were in the lotus position, but without the right attitude, did not
evidence alpha brain waves."
  Shapiro, Deane H.  _Meditation, self-regulation strategy and altered state of
consciousness: a scientific/personal exploration_, 1980, pp. 122-23. 
(references:  Kapleau, _Three Pillars of Zen_, 1967, and Akishige, Y.,
_Psychological studies on Zen_, 1970.)

Actually what was described as sort of like meditation seems to be just that: 
I was surprised when I asked my instructor about it six  months ago.  He said
that we aren't trying to do zazen (formal meditation) at all; we are  trying to
clear our minds and prepare for class and (after class) for going back into the
world.  

I always thought of the (kneeling) position as a means of discipline - mind
over body.
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: geg@beep.mis.semi.harris.com (Gregory E. Garland)
Subject: Re: Taekwondo
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1992 02:38:29 GMT
Organization: Manufacturing Systems, HSS

In article <65216@apple.Apple.COM>, mikel@Apple.COM (Mikel Evins) writes:
|> 
|> Countering a reverse punch:
|> 
|> Evade outside the punch, touching the outside of the
|> arm lightly to cause the opponent to slightly overbalance.
|> As she compensates by shifting her weight, fake a sweep
|> to the leading leg. When she shifts her weight backward
|> and lifts her front foot to evade the sweep, pretend to
|> shove her over backwards. Of course, she'll try to
|> prevent the shove with a straight punch to your face,
|> so forward flip over her head, alighting behind her.
|> Now pivot and cause a burst of chi to explode from your
|> outstretched hand, knocking her on her face.
|> 

yeah, right, like anyone in their right mind would use a forward flip
over someone in a self defense situation.  you obviously have to add
a half-twist as you're going over so you are always facing your opponent.

jeez, the advice some people give out on this group...

-- 
Greg Garland - Alive, occupying space, and exerting gravitational force

MS 62-024, Harris Semiconductor Sector, PO Bx 883, 
Melbourne  FL 32905.  geg@beep.mis.semi.harris.com

"Never let the facts interfere with your perception of reality."

Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: nkraft@bkhouse.cts.com (Norman Kraft)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: RE: Black Belt (not what you think)
Date: 7 Apr 92 00:15:30 GMT
Organization: Argus Computing
X-NewsSoftware: Amiga GRn V1.28 2/25/92 (Beta) by Mike Schwartz

I've been sort of following this thread with something less than 
enthusiasm, but I ran across something today that seems applicable.

Someone may have already added this bit of info, but in the September,
1989 issue of Black Belt (I know, the "b" word...), Joe Lewis mentions
in his "Front Kicks" column (subbing for Wallace) that he received his
black belt on Okinawa in just 3 months. The seven months usually quoted
for his black belt actually is the combination of 4 months at a school
he quit, then 3 more (starting from white) at another. Upon acheiving
this status, he then returned to the US and proceeded to take first 
place in black belt sparring and black belt forms at the 1966 US 
Nationals in D.C., proceeding then to become one of the most successful
competitors of all time.

The point here is not to say so much that "if Lewis did it, it must be
okay", but to reiterate the idea that a black belt, in and of itself,
has very little meaning. The value placed on the achievment is entirely
context dependent, and the effectiveness of the achiever is all a 
matter of what you intend to use it for.

Obviously, in the case of Joe Lewis (who, incidentally, went to the 
same school that Bill Wallace did), natural talent, desire, a study
of boxing, and 7 months of training was all he needed to reach his
immediate goals. More power to him and those like him! If the martial
arts isn't about achieving personal goals, I don't know what it is
about. In my book, it certainly isn't about achieving other people's
goals.

Just for reference, it took me almost 4 years to earn my TKD black
belt, then another 6 or so after that for an equivalent status in
Choy Li Fut. I don't know anyone personally who gained a black belt
on a one year program, so I suppose my above thoughts are probably
purely theoretical. So shoot me. ;)

Norm.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Senior Partner				   UUCP  : ucsd!crash!bkhouse!nkraft
Argus Computing 			   GENIE : N.KRAFT3
San Diego, CA				   PORTAL: nkraft@cup.portal.com

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: poore@ds9.scri.fsu.edu (David Poore)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: 2 questions.  Please read.
Keywords: stretching, sparring
Date: 8 Apr 92 13:14:51 GMT
Reply-To: poore@ds9.scri.fsu.edu (David Poore)
Organization: Florida State University

In article <1299@hydra.bucknell.edu> cammarta@bucknell.edu (aaron cammarata `93) writes:
[Yah! Someone wants an opinion!]
>and the danger of a sprain or tear is much higher.  How do you cope?  Any special ideas out there?

Welll...this will be a different perspective that your style would
apparantly offer. Use your hands. I'd prefer not to expose myself by
kicking unless they're already on the ground! ;) Then again, I'm not
much of a kicker. But you get my meaning...

>	When sparring, what goes through your head?

I like 'teachers foot'. ;) Lots of stuff: rather like I think a dog'd
brain works (you know, food, scratch, bark, pant, run, food). Relax,
breath, elbows down, straighten up, breath, relax, ad infinitum.

David Poore
poore@ds9.scri.fsu.edu
From: psc@sei.cmu.edu (Peter Capell)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Dougie Wougie
Date: 9 Apr 92 12:50:15 GMT


Doug, everyone knows that you're a spite-filled, bitter old man who just
loves to torment these young bucks.  Good fer you by cracky.

P.S. Let me take the baton: The likelihood that a 21-year-old American
     knows anything of substance about Chinese martial arts is basically
     nil.
Organization: The American University - University Computing Center
Date: Wednesday, 8 Apr 1992 19:15:43 EDT
From: Guy Hadsall <GHADSAL@auvm.american.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Naval Academy Tournament
 <AdsF54_00WBM4_0lRo@andrew.cmu.edu> <1992Apr08.194905.1777@eng.umd.edu>

Did anyone go to the Naval Academy TKD/Karate Tourney last weekend?
Our school sent a team, but from what I can gather these guys/gals
from the academy were *aussome*.   Someone was videotaping it for
prosperity I guess, would be nice to get a copy.

Some one commented that in their opinion and that which is published, the Naval
Academy's team is in the top five in the country.  One is headed to the
Olympics in Spain.

What are your opinions comments, and if you've sparred with a "swabbie"
on the mats what was your inmmpression?


Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: radner@cray.com (Lauren Radner)
Subject: Re: Which is most effective? Point/Edge weapons.
Organization: Cray Research, Inc.
Date: 11 Apr 92 21:44:09 CDT

In article <1992Apr10.111829.770@gacvx2.gac.edu> karsten@nic.gac.edu (Karsten Hendrick) writes:
>True enough.  A katana is the ultimate blade.  The problem one has
>when pitting any other weapon besides a katana (or tachi, naginata)
>against a katana, is that the katana can typically cut through the
>alloys used to make other weapons, as well as any armor someone might
>be wearing.  Shock-jackets (bullet proof vests that stop high-
>powered rifle shells, even .475 supermagnums) are probably the only
>personal armor that would stop a katana.

Just a semi-related anecdote, for fun:

This reminds me of a story my archery coach told me about a fellow archer
who was also a policeman, and a discussion he had with some fellow officers.
They were certain a bullet proof jacket could stop one of his arrows and
he couldn't convince them they were wrong. They got well into the "Prove it!"
stage and one officer in particular demanded to be shot at, while wearing
a bullet proof jacket. The archer-cop, knowing better, refused, but agreed
to shoot at the jacket positioned on a human-form dummy. The challenge was
on. Off to the range... The archer-cop unleashed the arrow and it went
*in* and *through* and *out* the back of the bullet proof jacket. The "Oh
yeah? Shoot at ME" officer turned pale as a sheet. The point being (no
pun intended) that a bullet has to cut through threads whereas an arrow
point noses them aside. 

-Lauren

Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: sasso@flounder.phy.anl.gov (John F. Sasso)
Subject: Re: Crush and maim (was: How to choose...)
Keywords: Crunch, Break, Ow!
Organization: Argonne National Laboratory
Distribution: na
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1992 01:34:45 GMT

In article <s5u4uINNi80@agate.berkeley.edu> robinson@cogsci.Berkeley.EDU (Michael Robinson) writes:
>
stuff deleted

>By the way, this was a counter to a wrist grab.  This to me illustrates the
>difference between a combat art and a self-defense art like aikido.  On the
>battlefield, you want to ensure that it is safe to turn your back on your
>opponent, and you want to accomplish this as quickly as possible. In a
>self-defense situation, however, you only want to neutralize a confrontation,
>and you want to accomplish this with as little fuss and bother as possible. 
>
>

Well, I guess I can forget those minor variations to standard Aikido 
technique that my Sensei taught me that turn them into quick death for
the attacker.  ;-)  Most have to do with guiding uke's head into the ground
in a rather violent way.  Particularly effective on concrete.  Yuck.

						John F Sasso



-- 
"The only way to true inspiration is the study of TedDo.  And lots
of MauMau, of course."  The Elvis Lectures
"I am not the False Bob, I am a free man."  The Book of FalseBobs
"Since the introduction of MauMau, HP sales have skyrocketed." Book of MauMau
Organization: Sophomore, Social & Decision Sciences, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1992 18:33:14 -0400 
From: "Albert Y. Hong" <ah2p+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Multiple oppnents

In the multiple attackers dicussion I see that everyone has a good point
and I see the validity in both attacking the weakest or the strongest,
attacking as many as possible, running and other tactics.
It is very easy to say what to do when you are not in the situation, but
when you are at that spot you are fighting for your life.
 I think a lot of people are missing a very important mentality of
martial arts. 
Being strong is not always the best way out of the situation. If a group
of people decide to attack one person we can see that they're not going
to end it with out using weapons.
And in a street fight it is very hard to handle more than 3 people,
because these people are not fighting for points.
At this point of my life(20 years old) I personally would escape. But,
in the worst situation I was taught not to start a large scale fight. If
there is a large scale fight the group will usually use some sort of
weapon against you. No matter how trained you are it is hard to avoid
mutiple weapons when fighting.
Choose the toughest one and stick with him and try to end it as quickly
as possible.
If you are able to hurt the leader, you won't have to run away nor fight
every single guy at the spot.
* I personally carry tear gas when I go out.  I strongly recommend it. I
feel confident because I know that I will be able to handle mutiple
attackers.
Hey, this could be the answer. Carry mace.

Sincerely yours,	albert hong
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: ninjam@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Marty)
Subject: Re: Mulitple attackers
Originator: ninjam@csd4.csd.uwm.edu
Organization: University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1992 01:37:48 GMT


In article <1992Apr13.213202.10718@cs.brown.edu>, tac@cs.brown.edu
(Ted A. Camus) writes:

> 
>   In Aikido, which arguably has a more martial tradition behind it,

  Oh oh...another one of those "all the other arts are for good looks"
  flame wars about to begin....


>   If any other arts seriously train 
>   against multiple opponents, I'd like to hear about them 

How About any form of Kung Fu, TKD, Kali, and just about every other
martial art out there?  I've never heard of an art that doesn't
train you for multiple attackers.  Granted, some do it sooner than
others, but they pretty much all incorporate it.  And there are plenty
of people who also supplement their personal training with training
against multiple attackers.


>   (*) An advantage of many Aikido strikes, for ex. shomenuchi (== sword hand 
>       to forehead), is that they can be done with full force safely.

Not to cut down Aikido, but there are planty of full force strikes
in other martial arts that can done just as safely.


Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts