HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: dwr2560@zeus.tamu.edu (RING, DAVID WAYNE)
Newsgroups: rec.games.board.ce
Subject: Re: Sting
Date: 11 Nov 92 23:50:00 GMT
Article-I.D.: zeus.11NOV199217501816
Organization: Texas A&M University, Academic Computing Services
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

cs161feu@sdcc10.ucsd.edu (Anthony Minkoff) writes...
>Okay, so what do *you* think the intention was?  I agree that the
>Katz Criteria have some problems, but it's the best interpretation
>I've seen so far.

I think the intention was to prevent STING from deliberately losing
tokens in order to get rid of his hand. But I can't think of any situation
which is so bad that 'involuntary' is required. I vote to ignore the word.

>Incidentally, I still haven't seen anyone address the issue of Sting
>vs. Insect.  Is there any way to resolve this, or should we add to
>the Sting power, "Do Not Use With Insect"?

Defender plays last.

Dave Ring
dwr2560@zeus.tamu.edu
Newsgroups: rec.games.board.ce
From: kcc@wucs1.wustl.edu (Ken Cox)
Subject: Re: Wrack (was Re: more questions)
Organization: Washington University, St. Louis MO
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 20:22:07 GMT

In article <1992Nov5.040921.9388@cbnewsh.cb.att.com> njs@cbnewsh.cb.att.com (nicholas.j.sauer) writes:
[ On the effect of a successful Wrack deal on the challenge sequence ]
>I remember the previous discussion because (as I recall) I started it.
>I have since spoken to Jack Kittredge about this power and have the
>answer (see below).

... which was that if the Wrack doesn't propose a deal, or if he decides
not to torture, the challenge continues normally; but once torture starts,
either the opponent agrees to the deal and the challenge ends with the
deal, or the opponent never agrees and the Wrack loses.

Thanks for the official ruling, our group will now play it that way.
Though the other way (the Wrack deal can occur IN ADDITION TO the normal
play of the challenge) added some rather interesting dimensions to the
power.

On the same topic, some posters have said that they let the Wrack change
his deal offer during the torture process.  Our group doesn't play this
way; once the Wrack makes his offer, it can't be modified.

Ken Cox
kcc@wucs1.wustl.edu
Newsgroups: rec.games.board.ce
From: michele@apex.yorku.ca (Michele Marques)
Subject: Re: Sniveler
Organization: York University, Help Services, CCS
	<1992Nov5.221956.6210@njitgw.njit.edu>
	<1992Nov6.162131.23495@Princeton.EDU>
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1992 07:35:05 GMT

In article <1992Nov6.162131.23495@Princeton.EDU> amlogan@room.Princeton.EDU (Adam Meredith Logan) writes:

   Suppose that Sniveler whines about having the most tokens in the warp in a
   game with Zombie.  Is there any way (short of Cosmic Zapping Zombie) to 
   prevent Sniveler from removing all its tokens from the warp?  Zombie's 
   tokens cannot go to the warp.

Well, if this isn't a two-player game, and the other player isn't
insect (and only involved in challenges against zombie), then there is
at least one other player losing tokens to the warp.  Sniveler can
only whine if he has the *most* tokens in the warp -- he can't whine
that he doesn't have the least.

		-- Michele

--
Michele Marques                      | UUCP: ....!utzoo!yunexus!michele
Computing Help Services              | Internet: michele@apex.ccs.yorku.ca
Computing & Communications Services  | Bitnet:   michele@yuorion
York University                      | Voice:    +1-416-736-5800
Newsgroups: rec.games.board.ce
From: jrrt@cbnewsj.cb.att.com (robert.l.mitchell)
Subject: History of (EON) winning Powers
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories - Lincroft, NJ
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 14:56:14 GMT

*
I've been keeping track of which Powers win in the games of COSMIC I've
played since I was introduced to the game in 1980.  Below is the list,
in order of winningest powers.  This is *not* meant to suggest that the
Powers that have won the most are the most powerful -- rather that the
Powers that have won the most are the favorites of the best players in 
my circle(s)...  We tend to allow players to draw some number of Powers 
and select some subset of those, so people can usually play with some
Power they like.
 
Only EON Powers are included here, and naturally, older
Powers are more heavily represented because they've been in more games
(although I'm surprised Philanthropist has never won).  One final comment:
multiple Powers, and Powers for joint winners, are all included, so one
cannot determine the number of games played from the data available.
 
Rob Mitchell
****************************************************************
Zombie         8    |    # Wins    # Powers with those wins
Mesmer         7    |     8            1
Miser          5    |     7            1
Oracle         5    |     5            2
Assessor       4    |     4            3
Butler         4    |     3           12
Visionary      4    |     2            8
Aristocrat     3    |     1           28
Disease        3    |     0           21
Mutant         3    |________________________________________
Negator        3
(No Power)     3    (This is either Powers were Hidden or Lost)
Schizoid       3
Silencer       3
Siren          3
Sniveler       3
Reincarnator   3    (one each as Judge, Laser, and Sniveler)
Sorceror       3        
Vacuum         3
Bully          2
Demon          2
Grudge         2
Mind           2
Pacifist       2
Prophet        2
Terrorist      2
Virus          2
Amoeba         1
Anti-Matter    1
Aura           1
Boomerang      1
Changling      1
Chronos        1
Clone          1
Delegator      1
Deuce          1
Diplomat       1
Dragon         1
Empath         1
Ethic          1
Extortionist   1
Filth          1
Force          1
Gambler        1
Hurtz          1
Insect         1
Judge          1
Laser          1
Macron         1
Magnet         1
Trader         1
Void           1
Vulch          1
Warrior        1
Wrack          1
From: phil@miracle.com (Phil Hill)
Newsgroups: rec.games.board.ce
Subject: Re: Sting
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 92 15:20:16 EDT
Organization: Miracle Computer Consultants

cs161feu@sdcc10.ucsd.edu (Anthony Minkoff) writes:
>dmccart@gomez.intel.com (D. J. McCarthy) writes:
>>I nominate Sting as the worst-phrased MCE power.
>>
>>
>>	"Whenever you lose tokens involuntarily, you may
>>	designate another player to lose them instead."
>>
>>
>>"Involuntarily"?  What does that mean?
>
>Agreed!  Unless this is clarified in a future issue of Encounter, I
>recommend it be put in the category of "Not Recommended for Use
>without Prior Understanding."
>
>Playtesters?  I'm sure this question must have come up.  How was it
>played?

This is one we didn't playtest, because at first glance it looked to be the
same as our 'Psycho' power.

I don't have the wording for 'Psycho' handy.  But if you drop the
'involuntarily' from the Sting description, it should fix the problem.

It's a good power, but it's not as bad as you might think.  The Sting tends to
not be invited to ally because you have no idea who he will go after next.  Also
never having a hand hurts a lot.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Phil Hill                     | "All you people in TV land,           |
| Miracle Computer Consultants  |   I will wake up your empty shells.   |
|                               |  Peak time viewing blown in a flash,  |
|                               |   as I burn into your memory cells.   |
| Email: phil@miracle.com       |  'cause I'm alive." - Peter Gabriel   |










Newsgroups: rec.games.board.ce
From: bradde@microsoft.com (Bradley Debroni)
Subject: Question regarding Sting
Date: 10 Nov 92 01:19:48 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corp.
Keywords: MCE Sting

I have a question regarding Sting. Quoting from the beginning of the
   Alien Power card (the Mayfair version, as shipped in MCE), the
   power reads "Whenever you lose tokens involuntarily, . . .".
   Now what exactly constitues an involuntary loss of tokens? Or
   another way of looking at it is to ask what constitues a
   voluntary loss of tokens? My impression is that losing tokens
   is always involuntary.

Thanks in advance.

Brad
Newsgroups: rec.games.board.ce
From: kevinpo@sco.COM (Kevin Pondy)
Subject: Ranking Powers
Organization: The Santa Cruz Operation, Inc.
Distribution: rec
Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1992 17:39:59 GMT


I am sorting the powers out between Very Strong, Medium, and Very Weak.
I was wonder what type of concensus there is on which powers are
overly strong and which ones are overly weak.
This is all based on a single power game.
A bunch of General groupings are fine too like the three the rules
mentions as easily abused are tops on the list.
Thanks,
  -kevin   kevinpo@sco.com
From:  (Spike)
Newsgroups: rec.games.board.ce
Subject: More re: 2-player game
Date: 10 Nov 92 20:04:53 GMT
Followup-To: rec.games.board.ce
Organization: GE Power Generation

I agree with Anthony that the two player rules are neat (almost a
different game from multi-player, able to stand on its own merit). 
I also agree that the rules are buggy and unclear. I haven't had a chance 
to read all his fixes (yet), but one thing that immediately caught my 
attention is the Regeneration issue. I would agree that regenerating 
a neutral power should not "cost" a challenge - otherwise, it's almost
never worthwhile to do it, and it's the only way neutral powers recover
tokens from the warp.

I have a question about another ambiguity I'd like feedback on. When you 
are defending a neutral power, you get to use their alien power. But do you

get to use your own as well? A friend of mine says no; you are, in effect, 
playing the role of that race, and should not have access to your own 
power during that challenge. I disagree, because it complicates the next
question.

When you are defending a neutral power, can you call yourself as an 
ally? Must you play an appropriate Destiny card? How about if you have
conquered or controlled that race?

Finally, when using the punt option, can any of you tell me the point of 
discarding your Destiny hand? After all, you are going to get three cards 
off the deck whether you discard your Destiny hand or not. If you're stuck 
with a mittful of your own color, at least your opponent doesn't have them
:-)

Spike (Not Jones)

===============================
Sigs? We don't need no steenkin' sigs!
Newsgroups: rec.games.board.ce
From: gkatz@csws4.ic.sunysb.edu (Gerald W Katz)
Subject: Re: Sting
Organization: State University of New York at Stony Brook
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 21:37:39 GMT

In article <1992Nov9.213518.6438@leela.cs.orst.edu> holcomg@atlantis.CS.ORST.EDU (Gordon Holcomb) writes:
>In article <BxGpM9.1vn@inews.Intel.COM> dmccart@gomez.intel.com (D. J. McCarthy) writes:
>>
>>I nominate Sting as the worst-phrased MCE power.
>>
>>
>>	"Whenever you lose tokens involuntarily, you may
>>	designate another player to lose them instead."
>>
>>Symmetrically, when does someone "voluntarily" lose tokens?
>>
>>
>If you Plague yourself!
>You agree to give up tokens in that flare that makes everyone discard each type   of card and 3 tokens.
>
>There are bound to be others.
>
>Gordon
>
>>--
>>| D. J. McCarthy
>>| dmccart@gomez.intel.com
>>| ...!intelhf!mipos3!modl01!dmccart

I would say that Sting could not force others to lose tokens when
he loses as offensive player because he voluntarily risked his tokens.
If you want to be picky that Sting HAS to make a challenge on his turn,
then he could Sting one token since he must put at least one token in
the cone, but any more were voluntary.  He may not Sting on his second
challenge because the second challenge is voluntary.  Also, Sting could
not Sting tokens when he allies because that too is voluntary, unless
he was forced by the Magnet.  As for failing to deal, only if his 
opponent openly declared that he did not want to deal is Stinging allowed.
Losing tokens by Wrack is voluntarily.  From Vacuum and Assassin, you
may Sting.  You may Sting as losing defensive player unless you are
Sting/Siren and used your Siren power.

New killer combo: Sting/Vacuum

Don't forget to tip the Butler!
					gkatz
Newsgroups: rec.games.board.ce
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 09:44:04 -0500 
From: "Joseph E. Beck" <jb8n+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Anyone else think some powers are TOO powerful....
	<40918@sdcc12.ucsd.edu>

>In another recent game, I got the Plant.  That was fun, especially
>in deal situations.  "I'll tell you what.  I'll give you a base in
>my system, and you give me a base where you have a base in *his*
>system.  Then next time I challenge him, I'll invite you to
>ally..."
Thanks for reminding me.  Plant, there's another one we threw out.
It's usually an all or nothing situation.  No one wants to let him get
started, but if he does he wins.


>Yes, until people decide you are too close to winning and start
>stomping you down to below three bases. Plus, if you do this
>constantly, people may not want to play with you ever again.
It's not that easy to just stomp someone down below 3 bases.  How many
challenge cards are there in the deck to attack them?  If you're close
to winning it may be very tough to remove their allien power.  As far
as never playing with this person again I'm glad I'm not in your CE
group.  Demon works best if you're aggressive and trying to be main
player, so I shouldn't do this because it gets other people upset?
I'd handle it by either removing the power, or not getting upset when
demon gets involved in every challenge since you didn't bother to
remove it.

>> VIRUS: even if you only put two tokens in a  challenge, it makes a 
>> whole lot of difference... allies would almost ally with four, since it
>> would almost guarantee a win... its like the "dont bother playing a
>> card" power.  
>
>Yes, until people decide you are too close to winning and start
>stomping you down to below three bases.
Do you have some edict that says "stomp player x to below 3 bases?".
Ok, take a deep breath and tell me how you stomp someone who has one
of the best 3 combat powers in the game (let me guess, have his
opponents be philanthropist-visionary and pacifist-xxx).  Ok, now do
it before he wins when he's close to winning.  It's very unlikely
you'll get to attack him enough times, and this is ignoring the fact
you may not win against Virus (who would think).  

> Also, Kickers go a long way towards negating the effect of this
>power.
Ok, Virus attacks with 3 tokens, assuming he has no allies (big
assumption) he has a kicker 3.  How many kicker 3's are in the deck?

> Mostly though, if you have
>three tokens in the cone, no allies ("We're not *stupid" is a popular
>phrase), and a four in your hand, virus dowsn't really help much.
Yes, but if a 4 is your highest card you'll soon be drawing a new hand
(unless you got totally screwed and a 4 was one of your best cards.
but this situation hoses anyone).  Also, can't Virus try to win the
game with someone so they have an ally with 3 tokens.  This turns this
pathetic situation for Virus (an attack card of 4 being his best) into
an attack 24, not too bad.  The best way is to get good combat powers.

	joe
From: glenn@sloth.ncsl.nist.gov
Newsgroups: rec.games.board.ce
Subject: Pentaform with Artifact and Setup Powers
Date: 12 Nov 92 20:47:48 GMT
Reply-To: glenn@sloth.ncsl.nist.gov
Organization: N.I.S.T
Posting-Front-End: Shinbun -- the OpenLook newsreader




I'm somewhat confused how to handle the pentaform when it comes with
setup and Artifact powers.  The possibilities are endless as are
the arguments.  Our solution the other night was to simply not allow
it and the pentaform just keeps picking until it gets 5 powers that don't
involve setup or artifacts.  Any comments?

Rob G.
glenn@osi.ncsl.nist.gov
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
| K. Robert Glenn, Computer Scientist |  glenn@osi.ncsl.nist.gov        |
| NIST                                |                                 |
| Bldg. 225/ B215                     |  "Developing OSI protocols      |
| Gaithersburg, MD 20899              |   bit by bit."                  |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------


Newsgroups: rec.games.board.ce
From: sean@visix.com (Sean E. Trowbridge)
Subject: Re: Sting
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 18:28:10 GMT
	<1992Nov11.025433.9356@muddcs.claremont.edu>
	<1992Nov11.135156.1834@cbnewsh.cb.att.com>
Organization: Visix Software Inc., Reston, VA

>>>>> On Wed, 11 Nov 1992 13:51:56 GMT, njs@cbnewsh.cb.att.com (nicholas.j.sauer) said:

  > In article <1992Nov11.025433.9356@muddcs.claremont.edu>, irilyth@fenris.claremont.edu (Josh Smith) writes:
>> 
>> But, since I haven't playtested it, what the hell do I know? Playtesters,
>> you've been invoked several times: how did you play this card, and what did
>> you think of it?

  > Alright, already!

  > This is the text of the Sting that we playtested (I still haven't got MCE
  > yet):

  > You have the power to substitute.  Whenever you lose tokens to the warp,
  > you may designate another player to lose them instead.  Your tokens return
  > to bases, and he chooses an equal number of his own to lose to the warp.
  > He then can draw one card from your hand for each token he lost.

  > We added the following sentance: You can not force a player to lose more
  > tokens than the number of cards you have remaining in your hand.

  > As you can see there was none of this involuntary token loss crap.  The
  > above is pretty much how we played the power and, is probably how I will
  > alter the power text to for my game.

The "involuntary" may have been added to clarify that Sting cannot
simply force someone to lose a token in exchange for taking a card from his 
hand (by "volunteering" to lose a token himself, and then using his power).

Or maybe there is some circumstance (other than the above) where you can
legally choose to lose a token.  (I can't think of any offhand, but I'm no CE
expert.) At any rate, I would say that voluntarily RISKING a token is not the
same as voluntarily LOSING a token.


--
Sean Trowbridge
Visix Software Inc.
sean@visix.com
From: dmccart@gomez.intel.com (D. J. McCarthy)
Newsgroups: rec.games.board.ce
Subject: Re: Anyone else think some powers are TOO powerful....
Date: 12 Nov 92 19:15:10 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Intel ASTG, Santa Clara, CA
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]

William John McNelis (stranger@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu) wrote:
> DEMON: i dont remember how this was phrased, but i think it lets you
> always  take over for the offensive player...
> Doesnt that make it almost impossible for anyone to get a base?!?!?

	Well, the original player might have asked for allies.
Besides, Demon is only used when the Demon player is not involved in a
challenge, so other players can get bases by attacking Demon.  It's
nasty, but not overly so.  Personally I think Siren (which does to
defense nearly what Demon does to offense) is a lot nastier.

> VIRUS: even if you only put two tokens in a  challenge, it makes a 
> whole lot of difference... allies would almost ally with four, since it
> would almost guarantee a win... its like the "dont bother playing a
> card" power.  

	You still need to play a card to make Virus work; it's just
that you don't need nearly as high a card as you normally do.

	Virus and all brute-force powers (Warpish, Warrior, etc.) all
have weaknesses.  Loser is my favorite, but there's Anti-Matter,
Pacifist, Calculator,....  It's no fun being a brute-force power when
Parasite or Sniveler are around, either.

--
| D. J. McCarthy                        The moving walkway is now ending;
| dmccart@gomez.intel.com                               please look down.
| ...!intelhf!mipos3!modl01!dmccart
Organization: Junior, Math/Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: rec.games.board.ce
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 18:43:14 -0500 
From: "Joseph E. Beck" <jb8n+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Sting

>It's a good power, but it's not as bad as you might think.  The Sting
>tends to not be invited to ally because you have no idea who he will
>go after next.
I think it would work in the opposite manner.  Simply announce:  the
first person who refuses to let me ally (you may wish to put a good
reason clause in) will be Stung for
the entire rest of the game.  If someone insists, carry out your
threat.  But it probably won't happen.  Basically:  the first person
to hose me will be hosed badly.  Works wonders.

>Also never having a hand hurts a lot
I don't know what you're talking about, this is a *good* side power
for Sting.  You draw a hand, immediately use all edicts even if of
marginal use, play kickers with high attacks/compromises.  Very
quickly you will only have junk.  So most of the time you lose your
junk and draw a new hand (looks good to me), only occasionally should
Sting give up good cards, and should almost never give up an edict.  
Draw hand.  Play edicts.  Make opponent lose tokens.  Draw new hand.
Looks good to me.

We don't permit Sting in our group.  The concensus here is that it's a
suped up Zombie.  Of course, this is the same expansion that brought
diplomat....

	joe
From: dmccart@gomez.intel.com (D. J. McCarthy)
Newsgroups: rec.games.board.ce
Subject: Sting
Date: 9 Nov 92 18:49:20 GMT
Article-I.D.: inews.BxGpM9.1vn
Organization: Intel ASTG, Santa Clara, CA
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]


I nominate Sting as the worst-phrased MCE power.


	"Whenever you lose tokens involuntarily, you may
	designate another player to lose them instead."


"Involuntarily"?  What does that mean?  If I am Sting, can I designate if:

 - I'm the attacking main player and lose?
   How about if it's my (mandatory) first challenge, I have terrible cards,
   	and I only put in one token?

 - I've allied with the losing side?

 - Magnet's forced me onto the (soon-to-be-)losing side, and I go in with
   	more than one token?

 - I play a Compromise card?
   How about if it's the only Challenge card I have?

 - Sniveler whines about having too many tokens in the warp, and another
   	player doesn't want him to take his out?


Symmetrically, when does someone "voluntarily" lose tokens?


--
| D. J. McCarthy
| dmccart@gomez.intel.com
| ...!intelhf!mipos3!modl01!dmccart
From: jb8n+@andrew.cmu.edu (Joseph E. Beck)
Newsgroups: rec.games.board.ce
Subject: Re: insect/wrack/void combo question
Date: 5 Nov 92 19:56:01 GMT
	<1992Nov5.061025.19726@muddcs.claremont.edu>
Organization: Junior, Math/Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA


10 most powerful powers?  Well, I'll ignore MCE (for obvious
reasons...)

In no particular order:
Pacifist -- Incredible combat power.  Works well against anything but
loser.

Wrack -- Any power that makes people *want* to attack you so you both
can profit is very cool.  Tends to win a lot of games.

Vulch -- Pretty obvious, before MCE edicts were the best cards (you
can argue for compromises) and well, he has lots of them.

Healer -- Tends to have people ally with him.  When someone can
promise "if you ally with me you won't go to the warp." he tends to
draw a lot of support (especially if he says "if you hose me you will
never be healed again, and follows up on it").  So you get good card
flow and allies.

Changeling -- Is useful in multi power games for messing up someone's
killer combo.  Additionally you have an advantage in the challenge
since they're now changeling (and down a power), and you have one of
their powers.  

Pentaform -- Getting 5 extra powers to place in any order is very
powerful.  Better IMO than keeping 1 power throughout the game.

They're the only ones that stand out in my mind.

Now the weakest (i.e. is having these powers a gain or a loss...)
Berserker -- Wow.  Now I can't make deals with anyone (this is useful
playing against visionary), but I can attack everyone's base on a
planet and remove them.  Boy, everyone likes me.  This "power"
restricts your abilities, and makes people less likely to trust you
(even less than normal people) and you don't fight much better.  I'd
rather have no power than this.

Macron -- Counting your tokens as 4 is kind of nice, but being only
able to gain 1 card as a defensive ally sucks.  And if assasin is in
the game (or anything that lets someone kill tokens of their choice)
you're just doomed.  Again, it's questionable if this is a plus or a
minus.

	joe