From: kgivon@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (karen lee givon)
Subject: Re: zionism in crisis
Organization: Indiana University
Distribution: talk
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 20:30:10 GMT

In article <1993Jan22.1777.23086@channel1> "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com> writes:
>To: Karen Lee Givon
>
> KG> Wayne, I have not felt the least bit of respect from you.
> KG> All you have shown us is an obsession with proving that
> KG> Judaism is racist (on an inappropriate newsgroup I might
> KG> add).
>
>I have a very different perception of what is going on. Shai
>Guday made the flat assertion in here that Jews do not constitute
>a race in the biological sense. 

He was correct.

I challenged his assertion with a
>simple message that I had come across passages in my reading in
>which prominent Jews had argued otherwise. When challenged on my
>comment, I went ahead and produced the passages. Guday's remark
>triggered this whole thread.

What triggered his remark?  

>A few users here, particularly Danny Keren, went completely off
>the deep end and rapidly escalated what could have been a useful
>and interesting discussion into a carnival of hysteria. The
>well-documented quotes drove him right over the edge. 

I don't think Danny went off the deep end at all.  In your self
righteous view people should not get emotional about emotional issues.
We tend to get offended when someone seems to spend an incredible amount
of time and energy Jew bashing.  Sorry, we're human.

I just
>reread Isaiah Berlin's Against the Current the other day, and can
>produce many more quotes in this vein. You should read Moses Hess
>on this issue: his program for founding a Jewish state, which
>evolved into Zionism, was founded on the central proposition that
>Jews constituted a biological race. At its very core, Zionism was
>founded on racial concepts. This fact has enormous relevance to
>contemporary Mideast and Israeli politics. Ideologies have
>enormous consequences in the real world.

Ethnic concepts, maybe, but not racial.  As someone said in a recent
post (sorry I can't remember who) even the term ethnic is an
oversimplification.  
 
>So apparently what you want me to do is when I see a remark like
>that by Shai Guday which can be strongly challenged, just keep my
>mouth shut. Don't engage in free and open inquiry or try to
>explore the truth and set the record straight for fear of
>offending the sensibilities of folks like Guday, Danny Keren,
>Christ Metcalfe, or yourself.

You are offensive, not specifically because of what you say, but how
much of it you say, and because you seem to ignore the faults of other
groups in the Middle East.  (this is talk.politics.mideast)  

>Or take questions of alleged "motives." Apparently emotional
>pro-Israelists can post voluminously in here without any
>consideration of their motives, but anyone who wants to disagree
>with them on certain points has to pass a motive test. I assume
>their motive is a passionate concern for Israel. MY motive is a
>passionate concern for American interests in the Mideast and the
>world in general. 

And Jews are the only people in the Mideast that you can find any faults
with?  Americans have died as a direct result of Arab terrorism and the
only people you can find fault with are Jews? Amazing!

I care about Israel, but not nearly as much as
>I care about the U.S., and I make no apologies for my agenda. I
>am an American, not an Israeli.

You do not  "care" about Israel.  You are obsessed with it.   
 
>Love of Israel requires no explanations; love of America or
>concern for the world order does.

I can give you an explanation of my love for Israel if you like.  Also,
for my love of America.  I'm not sure what your definition of world
order is.  

>Or take Chris Metcalfe and Mark Ira Kaufman: they resent non-Jews
>inspecting Judaism too closely, but they want to reserve the
>right of Jews to rummage through any belief system, including
>Christianity or Islam, to their hearts' content, and turn up and
>loudly broadcast whatever dirt they turn up. 

I don't think Mr. Metcalfe or Mr. Kaufman spend as much time or energy
digging up "dirt" on other religions as you do on Jew  I said in another
post, beliefs held by other religions are not that important to us
unless they directly affect us.  Many beliefs in other religions do
directly affect us, or are applied to us.

Hamas's views should
>be publicized; those of Kahanists or Gush Emunim or even Shamir
>should be hidden away in the basement, out of sight of the prying
>goyim.

You've got the wrong person here.  I don't agree with Kahane or Gush
Emunim, so I don't really care what anyone says about them.
>
>What I see is a deep pool of irrationality and flagrant double
>standards on the part of many Zionists here. Their behavior is
>alienating me, and I know for a fact that it is profoundly
>alienating many other people in the world. 

Well, non Jews don't much like it when we Jews speak out or defend
ourselves.  They never have liked it...

The overall effect is
>more pathetic than outrageous: they give the impression that they
>can't stand on their own two feet as adults and survive a free
>and open give-and-take of views. They need to rely on any crutch
>they can find to prop them up or any handy diversion to turn
>attention away from substantive issues.

I've had many religious discussion with people of many different
religions.  I'm perfectly willing to discuss it freely and openly.  What
I do not like is when people judge Judaism.  I don't judge other
religions except in areas that directly affect Jews, such as evangelism.
You have this self righteous view that you think my religion must be a
certain way, and that you have a right to judge my religion.  If Judaism
is not harming you (as Christianity and Islam have Jews) then leave it
alone.  I'm not telling you not to study about it, but you have no right
to judge or condemn any religion.
 
>Israel and many of her more unquestioning supporters are
>currently in a state of free fall, and most of them are too blind
>to realize it. If you properly understand Clinton's foreign
>policy appointments, which are in the tradition of Carter's and
>Bush's concerning Mideast matters, you will realize that the free
>fall is going to grow much worse unless Israel is able soon to
>work out a decent living arrangement with the Palestinians,
>drastically reduce its dependence on American generosity, and
>settle down into a condition of normality with its neighbors and
>the rest of the world, as a state just like any other state.

Do you really believe that Israel does not want to settle down into a
condition of normality with her neighbors?  Do you think we enjoy these
wars?  Do you also tell Arabs that they need to settle down into a
condition of normality with their neighbors? (not just with Israel)

>Americans are growing exceedingly weary of the demands that
>Israel is making on our attention and on our Treasury. Israel and
>her supporters have just about exhausted all the good will they
>possess, and it will probably be impossible for them to replenish
>it.
>
>I've been in many discussions with Buddhists, Hindus, and Sikhs
>lately about the nature of their religions and beliefs. When I've
>frankly challenged their ideas in free and open inquiry, they
>NEVER lost their cool. They saw each challenge as an opportunity
>to make a friendly and effective presentation of their beliefs.
I told you that I don't mind questions.  I do mind judgements made by
someone who has not had the experience of being a Jew in a non Jewish
society. 
Did you tell
these Hindus you talked to that they are ethnocentric because they don't
allow conversion or intermarriage?  Is it important that they don't?  Is
it your business to challenge and judge other religions?  When studying
other religions one needs to keep an open mind and not judge on the
basis of of what you've read.  (or not judge at all)   

>Compare their approach to human relations with that of so many
>Zionists in this newsgroup. No wonder Israel is having so much
>trouble getting along with "the nations." Many Zionists seem to
>lack the most fundamental understanding of how to communicate
>effectively with the rest of the world. Instead of being cheerful
>and confident about their beliefs, and treating every challenge
>as an opportunity to make new friends, they are perpetually angry
>and defensive. 

I know that you probably think this is a cop out or that I'm avoiding
the issue but 1000 years of persecution and oppression does that to a
people.  You have bombarded this newsgroup daily with your Jew and
Israel bashing (and thats exactly what it was, not innocent questions or
even challenges, but bashing pure and simple) and then you can't
understand why we are offended and why we have an emotional response to
it.  Pogroms have started because of claims like the ones you've made.

And the deeper the hole they dig for themselves,
>the more they blame the problem on anyone but themselves.
>Anti-Semitism--the ignorance and depravity of non-Jews--is their
>explanation for everything that is going sour in their human
>relations.

Centuries of persecution makes people a lot more cautious in "human
relations".  

>If their beliefs are increasingly more difficult to defend in
>free and open discussion without relying on abuse and gimmicks
>and diversions, perhaps they should consider revising them.

You have a lot of balls to suggest changing a religion that has been
around a lot longer than the religions that you defend on here, and has
done a lot less damage in its much longer existence.

We shouldn't have to defend our beliefs, only explain them.  If you
don't agree with them that's your right.  You don't have to agree,
you're not Jewish.  I don't have to agree with Christianity, I'm not
Christian.  Christians don't have to defend their beliefs to me.  They
don't even have to explain them if they don't want to.  

Keren

>---
>  OLX 3.01 31-2557  Our style betrays us.
>--
>Channel 1 (R)   Cambridge, MA
>


Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:26317 talk.politics.soviet:10752 soc.culture.greek:12573 soc.culture.europe:11440 soc.history:10994 soc.culture.soviet:12438 soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna:1374 soc.culture.croatia:508