From: sbate@atl.ge.com (Stephen)
Newsgroups: alt.angst
Subject: Re: No meaning
Date: 06 Jan 93 15:58:49 GMT
Organization: ATL
Reply-To: sbate@atl.ge.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: mary.atl.ge.com
In-reply-to: llama@tramp.cc.utexas.edu's message of 05 Jan 93 14:53:21 EST

In article <86193@ut-emx.uucp> llama@tramp.cc.utexas.edu (sine nomine) writes:
> and the cosmos is in better shape than we are. so what? do you really
> *want* to live forever?

Well, I guess it depends on your definition of "living". No, I
wouldn't want to live my present carnal life forever. But, as for
long-term conscious existence in general... sure, why not? (Actually,
this response is a cop-out to a very good question. To be honest, I'll
have to contemplate your question further.)

> : Just ask yourself, "what difference will it make in 1000 years if...".
> : I've had great success with this approach.
> 
> it's a great approach until you turn it on its side and start saying
> "it won't matter in 100o years, so why bother?"

That's an excellent question. Answering this question is a prerequisite
for using the technique I described. What's your answer?

> : Acknowledging your fate doesn't save you. It only gives you the
> : *possibility* of escape. Without realization of the "terror of the
> : situation", escape is impossible.
> 
> i don't know. if people are born and live their lives and think
> they're happy, if they go to work and go home and watch tv then screw
> the spouse if it's thursday and go to sleep only to get up and do it
> all over again and they think they're happy, who am i to tell them
> they're not? we each choose our own form of escape. the life i
> described sounds frightening to me, but some people *want* that. they
> deal with angst by ignoring it. how can i decide whose happiness or
> contentment is "real"?

I'm not saying we should analyze other people and decide if their
happiness is "real". Most of us don't know if *we* are happy. We have
to start with ourselves. How do you decide if *your* happiness or
contentment is "real" or just imagined or simply conditioned response.

Yes, we each choose our own form of escape. We are like innocent
people in prison waiting for execution. The prison administrators
given an ample supply of drugs and other paraphernalia to numb our
consciousness so we don't cause trouble.  If we don't take these drugs
voluntarily they are either forced on us or our execution is expedited
in order to manage a difficult prisoner.  We are constantly told
there is no parole or appeals, so we should just try to be happy with
the situation as it is.  However, the few prisoners that partially
awake from the stupor and realize their fate will naturally feel a
great deal of angst. At this point, they have a choice (i.e. the angst
is sign that they are conscious enough to have the *possibility* of
"real" escape). They can either go back to "sleep" and dream they have
escaped or they can start planning a "real" escape.

My original message is not for people who *don't* feel angst. I was
writing to the people that *do* feel angst and are trying to understand
it's significance rather than trying to avoid it.

> i'd say that people who've put themselves in a state where they don't
> care if life pleases them are doing what makes them think they're
> happy. i phrased that badly in the original; i should have said "i try
> to live a life that is pleasing to me." that *is* in my control; if i
> am doing things that make me unhappy, i can try to find ways to change
> them. it's hard a lot of the time and sometimes it takes years to
> figure out what i need to change, but it's my life and i can do things
> that affect it.

I feel the same way. It's a difficult problem. First, we have to know
what makes us happy. Second, we have to determine what changes need to
take place to make us happy. Third, we have to implement the changes.
Knowing what makes us happy is difficult because we consist of many
contradictory wishes and attitudes. What makes us happy today may make
us angry tomorrow. Often, we don't know ourselves well enough to know
what needs to change to make us happy. Once we do know, few actually
have the self-will to make the changes. Usually, we are "overcome by
events" and fall back into our conditioned behavior patterns. In my
opinion, the best advice is the Socratic injunction to "know yourself".
For some people (myself included), this self-knowledge is extremely
anstful but (IMO) no real personal growth can be achieved without self
study.

> : Do you feel the same way about people in abusive relationships,
> : dead-end jobs, self-destructive chemical dependencies, etcetera?  All
> : these situations "suck". Should people just insist on enjoying them
> : anyway? I don't think so.
> 
> i didn't say that i admire people who stagnate in situations that
> suck. i said that i admire people who acknowledge that at base, life
> is a bitch. to paraphrase m. scott peck, that life is difficult is one
> of the greatest truths, and once you truly accept it, you partially
> transcend it. once you accept that life sucks and stop railing at the
> universe because your life has been hard and unfair, you can get on
> with *doing* something instead of just being angry and petulant and
> expecting that life should be easy. people who've managed that are
> people i admire and want to learn from. all of that is unrelated to
> particular situations.

I completely agree with both you and Peck. A person won't be able to
accept that life is a bitch, unless they first *know* it is.  Usually,
the first indications of this knowledge are a feeling of angst. Avoid
the angst, and there is no transcendence. There is no conscious action
to do anything about it.  That's the point (at least the main point)
I've been trying to make.

Thanks for the good discussion...

--
Stephen