HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: kgivon@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (karen lee givon)
Subject: Re: islam & ethnicity
Organization: Indiana University
Distribution: talk
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 06:10:51 GMT

In article <1993Jan21.1777.23054@channel1> "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com> writes:
>To: Danny Keren
>
>You accused me of ignorance about Islam thus:
>
> DK> Yet you know nothing about the Bible or the most basic
> DK> facts about Islam (such as it passing from the side of the
> DK> father).
>
>Waleed Muhanna, who may know more about Islam than you do,
>replied:
>
> WM> This is not true.  You should get your facts straight.  One
> WM> is not considered a Muslim just because his/her father
> WM> happens to be a Muslim. A child of a Muslim is assumed to be
> WM> a Muslim, just like the child of a Christian can be assumed
> WM> to be Christian. But, by definition, you are a Muslim if you
> WM> believe in the Islamic faith and uphold/perform the
> WM> *religious* duties of Islam (e.g., prayers, zakah);
> WM> otherwise you are not.  A non- practicing Muslims can
> WM> *claim* to be a Muslim, but that doesn't make him/her so.
> WM> Anyone can become a Muslim and there are no formal
> WM> procedures for conversion.

I was told that to convert one must recite that prayer that goes
something like:  There is no G-d but Allah and Mohammed is his prophet.
I was also told that the convert is asked what he knows of Islam and how
much he has studied before converting.  I see no problem with this.  Why
convert if you know nothing about the religion you convert to?  Also
I've heard that conversion for marriage is discouraged.
 
>So who has a better grasp of the facts about Islam, you or
>Waleed?

My information comes from a fairly religious Muslim.  I consulted him on
all the points I've made in my posts regarding Islam. 
 
>According to Waleed, a Muslim is defined by his religious beliefs
>and performance. Islam would not seem to constitute an ethnicity
>in any biological sense.

Again, my Muslim friend told me that one is considered a Muslim if one's
father is Muslim.  I know quite a few Muslims who follow very few laws
of Islam but still consider themselves to be Muslims, and as far as  I
know are considered to be Muslims by other Muslims.
 
>According to Israel, a Jew is defined by his or her matrilineal
>bloodline. Thus a Soviet Jew who is an atheist, and who may have
>descended from parents or grandparents who are atheists, is still
>a Jew.

Most of these Soviet Jews did not have a choice in the matter. 
 
>So what's the scoop?

Focus your reading on Islam for a week or so and then let us know :-)

Keren

>---
>  OLX 3.01 31-2557  A dialogue is when two people talk to themselves.
>--
>Channel 1 (R)   Cambridge, MA
>


Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Subject: Re: zionism in crisis
Organization: Aiken Computation Lab, Harvard University
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 19:40:33 GMT

In article <1993Jan22.1777.23089@channel1> "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com> writes:
>To: Karen Lee Givon

>Jews constitute an ethnic group in both the cultural and
>biological sense. Converts play a minuscule role in Jewish life.

	You have yet to define ethnic group.  You ignore the prominent
converts named here, becuase they do not fit your theory.

>But how can Judaism provide a common ground between Israel and
>the nations, between Jews and other major ethnic groups, when it
>is centered so strongly on Israel and Jews alone?

	Why is Judaism supposed to provide a common ground?  Judaism
does not claim to be a religion for everyone.  Other facets of Israeli
life can provide a common ground.  Things such as music, art, science,
etc.

>If Judaism is a modern universalistic religion that transcends
>ethnicity, this is clearly not a message that has gotten through
>to the world, as judged by its eagerness to convert.

	Judaism does not seek to convert people.  You seem to have yet
to grasp this simple fact.

Adam
Adam Shostack 				       adam@das.harvard.edu

"If we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors, we sure
wouldn't waste them on members of Congress..."   -John Perry Barlow
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:26398 alt.revisionism:986 soc.history:11053
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,alt.revisionism,soc.history
Followup-To: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: Re: Holocaust Almanac - Grafeneck: The Gassings Begin
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 93 16:48:56 EST
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world

In article <1993Jan23.090003.17193@oneb.almanac.bc.ca> kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay) writes:

>"Around Grafeneck signs were posted: `Danger -- Epidemic,' and all access
>was barred. The exterminations rose to an average of more than thirty a day.
>Since it was awkward, time-consuming, and too expensive to kill so many with
>drugs, Criminal Police Commissioner Wirth devised a method for mass
>extinction. The people, upon arrival, were undressed, given a one-minute
>physical examination, then herded into a shed whose walls had been mortered
>and sealed. Since many of these patients, removed from their accustomed

There are times when the simplest of events call all of one's
existential motives into question. It is not surprising, that 
Armenians collaborated with the Nazis.

 "Wholly opportunistic the Dashnaktzoutun have been variously
  pro-Nazi, pro-Russia, pro-Soviet Armenia, pro-Arab, pro-Jewish,
  as well as anti-Jewish, anti-Zionist, anti-Communist, and 
  anti-Soviet - whichever was expedient."[1]

[1] John Roy Carlson (Arthur Derounian), 'Cairo to Damascus,' 
    Alfred A. Knopf, New York, 1951, p. 438.
  
As a dear friend put it, the Tzeghagrons (Armenian Racial Patriots) 
was the youth organization of the Dashnaktzoutun. It was based in
Boston (where ASALA/SDPA/ARF Terrorism Triangle is located) but 
had followers in Armenian colonies all over the world. Literally
Tzeghagron means 'to make a religion of one's race.' The architect
of the Armenian Racial Patriots was Garegin Nezhdeh, a Nazi Armenian
who became a key leader of collaboration with Hitler in World War II.
In 1933, he had been invited to the United States by the Central
Committee of the Dashnaktzoutun to inspire and organize the 
American-Armenian youth. Nezhdeh succeeded in unifying many local
Armenian youth groups in the Tzeghagrons. Starting with 20
chapters in the initial year, the Tzeghagrons grew to 60 chapters
and became the largest and most powerful Nazi Armenian organization.
Nezhdeh also provided the Tzeghagrons with a philosophy:

 "The Racial Religious beliefs in his racial blood as a deity.
  Race above everything and before everything. Race comes first."[1]

[1] Quoted in John Roy Carlson (real name Arthur Derounian), "The
    Armenian Displaced Persons," in 'Armenian Affairs,' Winter,
    1949-50, p. 19, footnote.

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.'    (Sahak Melkonian)


Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Subject: Re: Be careful... The dirty plan...
Organization: Brown University Department of Computer Science
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 15:21:29 GMT

In article <1993Jan27.042952.14705@trl.oz.au>  a.Faris@trl.oz.au  writes:
 
# As far as I know, this concept of Israel extending to the Nile and Eupharates
# is something that the Religious figures who are members of the Likude party
# have called for. 

You obviously have no idea of what you are talking about. Firstly, there 
are hardly (probably none) Religious members in the Likud (unless Abu-Hatzira
is still there). It is definitly a party without any real religious affiliation.

# I beleive it has become part of the Likude party platform.

Then you believe wrong, and you are inventing insane lies. There is not
anything like this in the Likud platform. Do you think it is a reasonable
staretegy of debate to invent such insanities and post them? Is it
a productive strategy?

-Danny Keren.
From: rivk@ellis.uchicago.edu (nora gayle rivkis)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Freedom fighter or Terrorist
Date: 27 Jan 93 00:01:56 GMT
Reply-To: rivk@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago

In article <1k02j6INNqlp@manuel.anu.edu.au> bdm@cs.anu.edu.au writes:
>
>In article <1993Jan24.203408.25266@midway.uchicago.edu> 
>        rivk@ellis.uchicago.edu (Naomi) writes:
>
>[...most deleted by bdm...]
>
>>I am not claiming that Lechi was a decent, well-behaved
>>bunch of people who used minimum violence to achieve their aims. I'm claim-
>>ing I've more important things to worry about than a bunch of fruitcakes
>>who were generally so out to lunch that they couldn't achieve their aims
>>with or without it.
>
>I don't see the slightest reason to regard them as more (or less) 
>a "bunch of fruitcakes" than a score of other small terrorist groups, 
>including Arab ones.  They seem perfectly typical to me; believe
>otherwise if it makes you feel more comfortable.

Aside from the one detail of using violence only against their target
instead of against random people from third countries, I agree. But (a)
I do consider that an important distinction and (b) I don't in fact
pay a whole lot of attention or outrage to most of the Arab small terror-
ist groups. It's when they get large, competent and dangerous I start
bothering about them.
 
>Brendan.  

	-Naomi



-- 
Oseh shalom b'imromav, hu ya'aseh shalom, aleinu v'al kol Yisrael.
From: ehrlich@bimacs.BITNET (Gideon Ehrlich)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: leibowitz
Date: 27 Jan 93 18:46:45 GMT
Distribution: talk,world
Organization: Math department, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, ISRAEL

In article <6214@gumby.Altos.COM> drori@altos.COM (Ghiora Drori) writes:
>In article <4669@bimacs.BITNET# ehrlich@bimacs.BITNET (Gideon Ehrlich) writes:
>#
>#Leibowitz ideas about Israel and the Jews are about those of Yigal
>#Arens.
>#
>#Shalom    gideon Ehrlich   ERETZ YISRAEL
>
>Gideon Erlich is a well known right wing fanatic who's
> opinions about Jews are the same as those of Rehavam Zevi.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Gigi

I can hardly imagine the base of that Gigi for his strange statement.

But if "objecting leting the Arabs  murdering even a single Jew each
month"  , means being a  " right wing fanatic like Rehavam Zevi" then
I am happy with being defined so.

WE SHALL OVERCOME    gideon ehrlich   ERETZ YISRAEL

Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:26345 soc.culture.greek:12620 soc.history:11019
From: aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Shaqeeqa)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: islam & ethnicity
Date: 23 Jan 93 04:20:14 GMT
Organization: University of Colorado at Denver

[great arguments deleted]

>So, let's turn this around.  The Palestinians are being denied their 
>political and human rights, killed, deported, and terrorized (the occupation
>is the highest form of terrorism, IMHO) today.  The question now is this:
>are you willing to acknowledge the crimes and work to stop the injustices 
>against the Palestinian people which are being perpetrated, today, in Israel,
>by zionism (which is a setller colonialist movement) all in the name of
>world Jewry and Judaism?  Do you, Danny, support, and are you perpared to 
>work for, total and genuine equality between Jews and non-Jews who live in 
>Palestine/Israel today?


Just want to take this opportunity to say, we think you are wonderful,
Waheed.  :-))

>"the man dies in all who keep silent in the face of tyranny"
>			Wole Soyinka, Nobel Laureate.

Wow!  You've captured more than one person with this statement ...

Ya Salam!!

Anisa

Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:26421 soc.culture.greek:12685 soc.culture.turkish:15187 soc.rights.human:5031
From: drori@gumby.Altos.COM (Ghiora Drori)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: leibowitz
Date: 27 Jan 93 17:29:03 GMT
Reply-To: drori@altos.COM (Ghiora Drori)
Distribution: talk,world
Organization: Altos Computer Systems, San Jose, CA

#In article <4669@bimacs.BITNET# ehrlich@bimacs.BITNET (Gideon Ehrlich) writes:
##
##Leibowitz ideas about Israel and the Jews are about those of Yigal
##Arens.
##
##Shalom    gideon Ehrlich   ERETZ YISRAEL
#
Here is some more stuff about Leibowitz:

Born 1903 in Rega (Russia) at 16 he came to Berlin as refugee
and was excepted to the University of Berlin. Studied Chemistry
and received a Phd in Philosophy in 1924. In 1934 he received
his M.D after studying in Berlin, Keln and Bazell. Since 1935
Prof Leibowitz has been working at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem.
He worked in the Chemistry, Medicine and cancer departments. 
He also taught Organic Chemistry ... He is also a member and
lecturer in the department of Philosophy. 

And now to the juicy part. The commity which gave him the prize included
Prog Hayim Ben Shahar, Prof Abraham Ravnizki and Aharon Yariv.
I am not familiar with the first two's political opinions; but
Aharon Yariv if my memory serves me right was the head of the 
inteligence department of the IDF. A left wing fantic? hardly.
Gigi
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:26274 soc.culture.greek:12522 soc.history:10965 soc.culture.turkish:15001
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.greek,soc.history,soc.culture.turkish
Followup-To: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: 'Let no Turk remain in the Morea, nor in the whole world.'
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 93 21:44:46 EST
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world

In article <C1DxD9.EMs@news.cso.uiuc.edu> msg7038@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Michalis  Syrimis) writes:

>>Source: Pierre Oberling, "The Road to Bellapais: The Turkish Cypriot
>>        Exodus to Northern Cyprus", Social Science Monographs, Boulder,
>>        1982, ISBN 88033-000-7, pp. 81-84.

>Now, here's an unbiased reference. A book that does not
>have a single reference writen by a Greek author.

Poor "paliks". See you are "a visserian the revisionist".

Source: Pierre Oberling, "The Road to Bellapais: The Turkish Cypriot
        Exodus to Northern Cyprus", Social Science Monographs, Boulder,
        1982, ISBN 88033-000-7, pp. 81-84.

p. 10.

2. "The 'Past' in Medieval and Modern Greek Culture," in Speros
    Vryonis, ed., 'Byzantina kai Metabyzantina,' Vol I (Malibu,
    Calif., 1978), p. 158.

Ditto.

>So what's the story with the "Stavrinides" reference does it exist or not?

Just love it. Go out in the "library" and look. There you are: (P. 82).

>>Source: Zaim M. Nedjatigil, "Cyprus: Constitutional Proposals and
>>        Developments," (Nicosia, 1977), pp. 74-81.

>I 'll check this one out.

Palikalive.

>Serdar note that I changed news group name on the heading and
>now this will go to both social.culture greek and turkish.

No sweat.

>The palik with the palouk.

So, the Greek educational system is also in a shambles, 'MS.'
History shows that within the last 170 years, Greeks played that 
game twice: They used Istanbul Patriarch Grigorios in 1822 to 
instigate the Morea rebellion that resulted in the massacres of 
the Muslim people. Again, the Orthodox Patriarch Constantine V 
invited the Russian Czar Nicholas II to invade the Ottoman Empire 
'in the name of Jesus,' and save his flock from Ottoman rule. 

In the words of Professor Skiotis, "With savage jubilance, [the Greeks]
sang the words 'Let no Turk remain in the Morea, nor in the whole world.'
The Greeks were determined to achieve to 'Romaiko' in the only way they
knew how: through a war of religious extermination."

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.'    (Sahak Melkonian)


Xref: sparky talk.politics.soviet:10710 soc.culture.soviet:12382
From: gunars@spss.com (Gunars V Lucans)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.soviet
Subject: Re: CSCE minority commissioner on LATVIA
Date: 25 Jan 93 20:16:55 GMT
Article-I.D.: spssig.gunars.727993015
Organization: SPSS Inc.

goykhman@apollo.hp.com (Red Herring) writes:

>In article <1993Jan23.145409.1@cc.helsinki.fi> thietaniemi@cc.helsinki.fi (Tapani Hietaniemi) writes:
>>Instead of arguing about the minority situation on the Baltic
>>states with unsufficient information, it might be more fruitful
>>to read some evaluations on the situation that are made by some
>>third party or respected international organisations.
>>
>>Here a briefing of the standpoint of the minority rights commissioner 
>>of the Conference of Security and Co-operation in Europe:
>>
>>------------------------------------------------------------------
>>CSCE COMMISSIONER ON MINORITY RIGHTS IN LATVIA. CSCE High
>>Commissioner on Minorities Max van der Stoel told Latvian Supreme
>>Council Chairman Anatolijs Gorbunovs and Foreign Minister Georgs
>>Andrejevs that he had not observed any abuses of ethnic minority
>>rights of non-Latvians who are citizens of the republic,

>    Of course, because there no such a thing as a non-Latvian 
>    citizen of Latvia.  Even half-Latvians can't become 
>    a citizen.

That's sheer nonsense.  There is no such legislation nor is
citizenship in any way restricted to ethnic Latvians.

>    A couple of weeks ago I received a letter from somebody whose late 
>    mother was an ethnic Latvian and a citizen of Latvia (born there
>    before 1940, lived there all her life, and buried in Riga). 
>    That person is being denied citizenship because of non-Latvian
>    father.

Is this the same person you've mentioned in the past?  There are
several possiblities:

1) There are other reasons that you or your friend have not mentioned
why citizenship was denied.  Simply having a non-Latvian father is
not the reason.

2) Some public official is doing something illegal.  Although this is
certainly possible, it would be a relatively isolated case.
Otherwise, most of the non-Latvians who had citizenship in 1940 (25%)
and their descendents would have certainly mentioned something to one
of the human rights inspection teams (US, CSCE, CE, UN, etc) that have
been visiting the country every few weeks.

3) You or your friend are lying.

The only other possiblity is that there really is such legislation.
If so, please find out what it is and let us all know.  Do try to
verify it through some other channel.

>    However, it would be unfair to characterize Lhe Latvian
>    citizenship practices as being Nazi-like: the Nazis generally
>    recognized half-Germans as "volksdeutche" (sp?), did they not?

This doesn't deserve any particular response.

--
Gunars V. Lucans  --  gunars@spss.com  --  SPSS Inc, Chicago, USA
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
From: de@MOSCOM.COM (David Esan)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Ignorants from Kiev follow ignorants from Tallinn
Date: 28 Jan 93 15:39:29 GMT
Reply-To: "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" <TPS-L@INDYCMS.BITNET>

In article <93027.100308BAV2@psuvm.psu.edu> BAV2@psuvm.psu.edu (Boris A.
 Veytsman) writes:
>Dear netters!  We must counter-attack!  Let the American netters write to
>their Congressmen urging them to pass a law on Ukrainian spelling and
>prononciation!  The Ukrainians must say and write 'state [TEksas]',
>'[KhAdsonova protoka]', 'state [MishIgen]' etc!  Let the British netters
>urge their Parliament and Queen!  The Ukrainians must say and write '[Landn,
>yakyy ye stolytsya Inglendu]'!  Dear French, Austrian, Italian and Portugal
>netters!  Would not it be pleasant for you to hear [Pari, Vin, Rom, Lizhbon]
>from a passing-by Ukrainian?

Why bother?  We don't call cities by their correct names anyway.

In American English:

Paris has the last letter pronounced.
Firenza, Italy is Florence.
Moskva, Russia is Moscow.
Bareleen, Germany is Berlin.
Roma, Italy is Rome.
Lisboa, Portugal is Lisbon.
El-Kaheer, Egypt is Cairo.
And some seaport town in Syria is called Aleppo, and is nothing close to that
in Syria.

--
 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 -->     David Esan      de@moscom.com

 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: pv02@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (PETER VOROBIEFF)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Recalling in sorrow the boring memory of Mudlu the Undead
Date: 21 Jan 93 17:10:46 GMT
Organization: Lehigh University

In article <105872@netnews.upenn.edu>, sergei@upenn5.hep.upenn.edu (Sergei Borodin) writes:
>In article <1993Jan20.194717.81036@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu> pv02@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (PETER VOROBIEFF) writes:
>>Today my killfile was accidentally deleted, and, having entered 
>>talk.politics.soviet, I stepped into mudlu-dung again. This posting
>>contains absolutely braindead irrelevant junk thoughts that can
>>only be inspired by reading the foul mudlu forgeries, so please do
>>not read this. I type the stuff only to wipe the shit off my boots
>>with the paper on which it'll be printed, so I repeat: please don't 
>>read it.
>
> Wonderfull. My kill file was NOT deleted but due to 
> your willingness to 'wipe the shit' off *your* boots
> I had to step into that shit too. And I guess, not 
> only I. 

Everybody was warned THRICE not to step into the shit!

>
> It makes me wonder why, you people, are doing this?
> Who cares what the program will pick up from the
> database?  

Well... First, the mudlu won't post anything as a followup 
to my message, because its coordinator already knows better
NOT to argue with me, after I had some fun with it in news.admin.policy.
Second, as the abovementioned discussion in news.admin.policy
revealed, there is nothing that can be done about the mudlu
now legally, and the number of its postings has only weak dependence
on the number of followups, there is no harm if somebody throws
a mudlu-bait once more. Third, why U can tease the mudlu thing
and I am denied this right? $@)

Fourth, U must be extremely grateful for my not having flamed U 4 spelling
errors. Use a bloody blasted flaming spell-checker sometimes!

With best regards from the Lurking Beasts of the Forests of Gnoy who
have just finished feasting on the bloated corpse of a certain National
Guard Soldier near Scranton, PA and now turn their long bloodied muzzles
in search of the next victim.


-- 
---
Thus spake Kalmoth the Dreaded, Bane of the Forests of Gnoy.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.soviet,soc.culture.europe,soc.rights.human,talk.politics.mideast