From: grant_jo@ripple.enet.dec.com (Joel Grant)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk
Subject: RE: PBS Special
Date: 19 Nov 92 16:01:30 GMT
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation


In <92324.021738U54778@uicvm.uic.edu> Alan Rogers writes:


|Of course, for brevity's sake, Bruce is leaving out 1) the Zfilm shows
|JFK droping his hand down just before being occluded by the sign and
|Connally turning his head to his right; 2) the audio tape puts it
|here (arguably, of course); 3) reading  Josiah Thompson's compendium
|of most of the witnesses testimony on when the first shot was heard;
|4) there was testimony to the effect that there should be a 2 second
|lead time to the reactions to when the shots actually were fired.
|If this is true and we see JFK reacting as he comes from behind the
|sign, then the first shot has to be long before 237.

	Perhaps for brevity's sake you leave out the fact that
	the dictabelt tape tells us nothing at all about the
	timing of the shots since it was not recorded at the
	time of the assassination and it was not recorded at
	Dealy Plaza.  And for what it's worth, there is plenty
	of testimony to the effect that the first shot hit
	the pavement, just like Donahue says, though I don't
	believe this shot deflected and hit Tague and I don't
	believe JFK's assumption of Thorburn's Position was a
	reaction to the shot.

|And there is some evidence to show that the fragment that hit Tague
|came from a bullet striking the curb only a few feet away from him.
|This would destroy a scenario that only places one shooter at the
|6th floor window.  The pro-WC arguments against this always avoids
|this by trying to place the bullet strike further away.

	This does not "destroy" the single shooter, 6th floor TSBD
	scenario.  Read Shaneyfelt's testimony; he didn't believe
	the pavement was hit by a whole bullet because the 
	nick on the curb was too small.  It certainly wasn't
	a FMJ bullet that hit the curb as no traces of copper
	showed up in the spectrographic analysis.  Given the fact
	that a fragmenting bullet by definition deflects from it's
	"true" course, Tague's position is consistent with a 
	pavement strike from the largest, unrecovered fragment
	from the head shot.

|Take note that the time behind the sign translates to .9 seconds.
|Try this yourself.  JFK can just barely make this movement in that
|time but note that the Zfilm shows him moving his arms up to his
|upper chest and I discern a stiffining and straightening of his upper
|torso at the same time.  These movements don't lend themselves to
|believing that he had moved forward first and then back straight.

	I don't think he did move much forward; his natural
	position in the limo was inclined forward.

	
|As for Connally, he certainly was rotated slightly to his right while
|in the jump seat just before he is occluded by the sign but no where
|near enough to be lined up if we are to pay close attention to the
|NOVA graphic to get the right angle.  Compare this to his position
|at 237 where he, his wife and his doctor all place the *second* shot.

	JBC and Nellie both place the strike at 234.  

|It is damn near perfect alignment and all his subsequent reactions
|fit.  Hair splayed, shoulder droppiing, mouth opening.  Also note,
|his hand which has been holding his big Texan hat is now below sight,
|probably near his left leg.  Can you believe all that claptrap about
|his being able to still hold his hat after his wrist bone has been
|shattered?  Have you ever seen the xray? Shattered is the word.

	
	The evidence of the z-film seems to show that in fact
        the hat was knocked out of his hand.  But Dr. Gregory
	has testified that he believes it is eminently possible for
	Connally to have held on to the hat even after having been
	struck.  Dr. Wecht believes it was not.   

	How do you account for the fact that, prior to 237, his
	arm is hanging limply, hinged *above* the wrist?

|And I wouldn't be distracted by the pro-WC argument that he testified
|that he wasn't aware of it til later the next day.  This unawareness
|makes perfect sense if he distracted by the collapsed lung and
|shattered rib.  It does not make sense if you are trying to place
|all these things happening while he is sitting unperturbed before 237.

       I agree with respect to his unawareness, but the "pro WC" argument:

1. Shows Governor Connally was not 100% aware of what was going on
in the limo; he was fallible and human like every other witness.
2. Puts the lie to those (like Groden and Livingstone) who think
the wrist was hit by a separate bullet. 


|   And while I'm at it, I would not be distracted by the "delayed
|reaction" WC argument.  Of course, people have tales to tell of when
|they were hit by a bullet and didn't realize it.  But looking closer
|at these tales, we can generally put them into two categories: 1)
|those whose tension and awareness were so hightened by their situations
|that their attention was focused away from their wound such as in war
|or in a violent street scene; or 2) their wounds were so superficial
|that they weren't immediately noticed; no collapsed lungs or
|shattered bones in the bunch.  Neither of these conditions were
|present in that presidential limo.

	Wound ballistics experts and army surgeons would disagree
	with you but I feel the point is moot.  Connally's reaction
	to the passage of CE399 is instantaneous with respect to
	his involuntary movements, and delayed less than a half
	a second with respect to semi-voluntary movements.  The
	gross external reaction of his upper trunk is caused by
	his reaction to the pneumothorax; his lung would not
	have collapsed until he tried to take his first breath.
	It is at this point that he cries out in pain.  Compare
	with Kennedy's wound reaction, which was instantaneous
	because it involved a severe neurological trauma to the
	area of the sixth cervical vertebra.  

	You might notice that by 230 already Connally is starting
	to collapse.  The hat is coming down; he is turning to
	his right; his right shoulder is moving downwards; and
	his right arm is splinting the movement of his 
	shattered rib.


|The pro-WC side always makes a bug fuss about this flattening, as if
|we are talking about a mangled bullet.  The flattening when seen from
|the side is very slight.  If you look at the bullet examples that hit
|a comparable bone head on, the nose is greatly misshappen.  If 399
|hit Connally's arm bone sideways, I would expect it to show much
|more flattening than what we see.  And the argument that it was slowed
|down by going through two bodies has to face up to the fact that it
|still had enough power to traverse his body, break his rib, shatter
|his wrist and go on to his leg bone.  This doesn't sound like a
|bullet that has been appreciably slowed down.

	The flattening has been reproduced experimentally and when
	flattened precisely like CE399 approximately 2 grains of
	lead protrude from the base of the bullet.  CE399 is also
	slightly bent on the long axis.  It has lost that 2 grains
	of extruding lead; where do you think it went?  Come to
	think of it, where do you think CE399 came from?  Do you
	really think there is sufficient evidence to conclude that
	someone (one of THEM) planted it on Connally's stretcher
	at Parkland?  Even though such an action would require
	a time machine on the part of Conspiracy Central?  (see
	below, `multiple out')

	The SBT does not say that CE399 hit Connally's arm sideways.
	It says the bullet was tumbling and hit the top of his
	wrist while traveling mostly backwards.  That's why it left
	the lead in the wrist.  The entrance wound here is *larger*
	than the exit wound.  How do you explain that, if not by
	a tumbling bullet?  The wound in the thigh is quite 
	punctate, indicating that the bullet ended up butt-end
	first.

	As for the velocity of the bullet, there is a correlation
	between how rapidly a bullet is moving and how much damage
	it does and has done to it.  Experiments have shown 
	repeatedly that the damage to Connally's wrist and thigh
	would have been much greater had it not been slowed
	considerably en route.  A bullet moving 400 fps, e.g., is moving
	pretty fast and you wouldn't want to get hit by it.
	But that is still a pretty sluggish velocity for a fmj
	bullet, which is why the penetration of the thigh was
	shallow.  The slowing due to having passed through Kennedy
	and having hit Connally tangentially (slowing the bullet
	that much more) explains why Connally still has a wrist.

|>I think the fatal head shot is *much* better researched by Donahue in
|>Mortal Error, and the chapter on the 'magic' bullet should be skipped.

	Sure, let's just "skip" contrary arguments.

|I agree.  Although I will concede that bullets can do funny things,
|none of the various explanations have been comprehensive enough to
|convince me that some version of the official line is probable.  They
|always begin to sound valid until you add the factors that they ignore
|or avoid.  They then fall apart.

	As long as you approach this with a political view ("the
	official line") I suggest you will continue to overlook
	the entirety of the evidence.  In your presentation above
	you do not address any of the experimental approachs,
	either with respect to velocities or damage.  It is
	the "unofficial line" [ ;^) ] that suffers from a need
	for adding all the factors.  Parenthetically, it is
	clear that virtually the entire second gunman arguments
	prosper only to the extent that they can incorporate
	wildly different standards of evidence, though I 
	believe that you personally make honest efforts to
	avoid the perpetual `multiple out' arguments favored
	by paranormalists and conspiracy theorists.

|I must state that I don't feel that the factors presented in this
|post are the weakest part of the case against the SBT.  It is the
|determination of whether LHO could have fired fast enough to have
|separately shot JFK and Connally with two separate shots that I find
|has strong enough weight to it to merit further probing.
|This factor comes to us mainly from Lattimer by way of Joel Grant's
|keyboard but is mentioned from sources other than these two.
|It is ironic that we can all (us anti-WC) discount so much of what
|the FBI presented us and not question its findings that 2.3 seconds
|was the absolute minimum firing time between shots as if it was
|gospel.

	The FBI firing tests have been validated by other testers.
	They are based upon the use of the scope.  The HSCA
	found that it took only 1.66 sec between shots if the
	shooter used iron sights.  But even if we could demonstrate
	that Oswald or anyone else could have fired the rifle 
	twice in the amount of time you postulate for the wounds
	to JFK and Connally, I would find it very difficult to
	believe that Connally was hit by a pristine bullet.

	Connally's wounds just are not consistent with being
	struck by a stable bullet moving in the area of 2,000 fps.
	This isn't just my opinion.  This is a demonstrated 
	experimental result.  The scar on his back is fully two
	inches (about 5 cm) long, consistent with Shaw's immediate
	post-operative statement.  And so on.  The appropriate
	way to approach a question like this is experimentally.
	And that approach demonstrates the unlikelihood that
	Connally's wounds were caused by a pristine bullet.

|I have been concentrating on this factor in my research of late. I
|posted an item some months back which dealt with LHO's abillity
|with a rifle.  I was immediately unsatisfied with it and have
|pursued this area much further; foraging through the 26 volumes,
|rereading the authors who touch upon this and even calling authors
|on the phone for clarification.  I will begin to present this
|material in forthcoming postings soon.

	I look forward to seeing it.  En passant, check out
	his ability to fire C2766 three times in 8.3 seconds
	and see what you come up with.

|As far as I'm concerned, the SBT is still garbage.  The real
|question is whether LHO was a good enough marksman to hit the
|victims separately with two shots.

	I always like to see creative approaches but I most
	certainly disagree that the SBT is garbage.   

Joel Grant (speaking on his own behalf)