From: han@anadolu.michigan.com (hasan.b.mutlu)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.turkish,talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.soviet,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe
Subject: It Would Be More Suitable To Make A Comparison Between,...'Spiros.'
Date: 8 Apr 92 05:21:00 GMT


<9204070130.AA11881@kocrsw06.delcoelect.com>
c23st@KOCRSV01.DELCOELECT.COM (Spiros Triantafyllopoulos)

>Standard Mutlu answer. The issue remains, Hasan. What does the stock
>market of Greece have to do with a discussion about the Kurds? Is it
>that hard to explain? 

The question remains: Has the political system intervened to achieve
the 'right degree' of limitation in inequality, 'Tri*?' Indeed, during 
the last 10 years, Turkiye (Turks, Kurds,...) registered a great success
with regard to the economic restructuring. A sound economy, ready
to be integrated to the world economies, has emerged, succeeding to
the faltering one, witnessed in the '70s. And what makes this
transformation more peculiar is the fact that, unlike the Southeast
Asian countries, it has been brought about in a virtually democratic
environment. Therefore, it would be more suitable to make a comparison
between Turkiye and, say, Greece, who share the same democratic values,
rather than the Southeast Asian countries, to highlight what Turkiye
accomplished within a short span of time. Fair enough, 'Spiros?'

>I am not interested in debating the Kurdish
>issue. All i saw was [...Kurds....] Turkey has more stock market than
>Greece [....Kurds & Dead People....]. 

You are not sticking to the original article. Sleep on that one and
try it again tomorrow.

>If you want to be technical, what
>is your complaint? Your note [i.e. the original to which I responded] 
>was not a complaint against anyone. Therefore to what, and when, 
>did you complain? 

Why not quote the original article posted on the subject, then?

>'Habit' means I have done so in the past. Like most people, I work for
>a living and do not spend hours typing stuff on the net (i.e. i am not
>a habitual usenet poster by any means).  And I have never had the
>pleasure of discussing anything with you so far, so spare us the
>rhetoric of 'habitual straw man generators'.  '

All your comments to the contrary, this point has not been addressed
properly. 

>You conveniently ignored
>most of my post and figures comparing the Greek and Turkish economy,
>concentrating more on things like the spelling of my last name and
>coffee and your PPP figure.

That's the whole point you invariably miss. Use my own words and
scholarly references rather than ascribing yours to me or quoting
'funny' sources. 'World Almanac?'       

>So please explain, Oh Kind One, what does the Greek Stock market 
>have to do with the Kurdish issue? It is a simple answer. It does,
>_______________________________. [ ] It doesn't, and was used 
>out of context because _______________________________________[ ]. 

Already done; See above.

>Again, no answer, just the standard methodology, find one figure and
>stick to it till yer' blue in yer' face.

Perhaps the correct stance would not, in fact, hold up? Sorry, but
your argument falls flat on its face.

>> 1. Average annual growth rate of GNP per capita: 9.6%

>Impressive. From what base, i.e. what is the GNP per capita? My figures
>said $1300 in 1987, so in three years (1990) it's around $1700. 

Nope. One should utilize the 'average output per person in dollars adjusted 
to PPP.'

>For Greece,
>the 87 figure is $4350, for 1990 it is $6900, translating to a 16% a
>year growth rate.

This one was pretty miserable. Greece has never witnessed the speedy 
population growth, since its population remained almost the same as 
it was in the 1960s. Indeed, the population of Greece increased by one 
million only over the last three decades while Turkiye's population has 
doubled in the same period. You have deserved to have a cup of Turkish 
coffee.

>> 2. Average annual energy production growth rate: 8.9%

>Then how come Greece, which imports quite a bit of its energy from
>Yugoslavia/Bulgaria, has much higher per capita production of energy?
>(33B KWH for 10 mil people vs. 46B KWH for 56 mil?)  (must be the
>milder weather or all these Solar water heaters in Greece :-)).

The same is true for almost every metric that invokes 'per capita' 
as a basis. This is the point we seem to disagree about.

>> 3. Share of Education: 18.1%

>How come there's 30% illiteracy rate? 

Read Parlakbilek's article and observe Turkiye in the year 2000.

>> 4. Share of Economic Services: 22.1%

>Cool. We got more. (nya nya nya nya)

Keep searching for ways to protect your ego.

>> 5. Average annual growth rate of exports: 15.3%

>Mighty impressive, though you ignored my paragraph about Turkiye used
>as a prime cheap labor source. Are you proud of all the $1.99 Kmart
>"made in Turkey" 100% cotton shirts? 

One should be proud of Turkiye's competitive position in ceramics, 
processed food, tourism, textiles, unprocessed food/fruit, contracting, 
livestock, leather products, glass, rubber, ship building, petrochemicals,
cement, iron and steel. Fair enough?

>> 6. Average annual growth rate of imports: 10.3%

>Quite high! any austerity/import restrictions to help keep money in
>Turkiye as opposed to it going outside? and with a 70% inflation a year?

That is the result of watching Greek TV too much. Exports are
continuously increasing, despite elimination of all kinds of
incentives. The imports which have been completely liberalized,
are also growing accordingly. Due to the chronic current accounts
deficit, it is highly probable that Greece will see itself constrained
to ask creditor countries to reschedule its foreign debts which
doubled during the tenure of 'Papandreou.' 

>> 7. Share of 0-14 years old in population: 35.4%
>> 8. Share of 15-64 years old in population: 60.3%

>So Turkiye has lots of young people. What do you do with the old ones? 

They are witnessing and enjoying a real miracle. 

>> 9. Crude birth rate per thousand population: 30

>Nothing to be proud of. Not that Greece's 2 per 1000 is
>any prouder either.... 

But, Turkiye, notwithstanding the high population growth, has
been able to achieve a sustained growth rate not less than 6
percent over the last decade. The speedy population growth
may provide some small scale advantages as well.

>> 10. Crude death rate per thousand population: 8

>No comment. 

Your privilege.

>> 11. Average annual growth rate of urban population: 3.4% 

>Nothing to be proud of.

I am forced to disagree.

>> 12. Urban population as a share of total population: 47%

>Hmmm. Same as in Greece. Nothing to be proud of.

Your opinion; hardly fact.

>> 13. Government budget deficit as share of GNP: -4.0%

>Now that's something to be proud of. Seriously.

Turkiye's budget deficit accounts for 4 percent of the GNP, by
far less than that of Greece. As for the foreign capital inflow,
Turkiye is also faring much better than Greece.

>> 14. Energy consumption per capita: 822 kg. of oil equivalent.

>No figures provided for competing country. I provided figures for all
>my data for both sides. Why did you ignore the fact that Turkiye,
>being 6 times the size of Greece, has LESS private and commercial
>vehicles? or passenger miles? or airports? ports? commercial flights?

It is so nonsensical. The sectors, at which Turkiye is aiming, are as
follows: Processed food, electrical machines, optical measuring
devices, plastic materials, packaging and pressing, wood products
and paper, production of electronic inputs, development of the 
financial sector, production of design, ship building and disassembly.
Have you ever heard of the 'Southeast Anatolia Project?'

>> 15. Life expectancy at birth: 64 years

>Greece's is 75. Again, figures  for things like availability of medical
>care to all citizens (or visitors for that matter), hospital beds, 
>doctors, etc. conveniently ignored.

You have been arguing with yourself; the issue was to become competitive
in world markets.

>> 16. ...

>Number of TV's, VCR's, phones, airline passenger miles, ..... ???????

Today, there are more than one million color TV units in the country.
More than one million sets are exported yearly, all of them being
produced locally. This is the best evidence of what Turkiye has achieved
in the field of telecommunications. I therefore venture to say that Turkiye
is ahead of Greece as far as the television networks and services 
are concerned. And all these foregoing achievements have materialized
despite a high population growth.

>> GNP per capita? 

>Here we go again...

Is that not the crux of my argument?

>> is, $3,000 - $5,999. 
>> 
>> Source: 'International Economics: Theory and Policy' by Paul R.
>>         Krugman and Maurice Obstfeld, Harper Collins Publishers,
>>         1991, (second edition).
>> 
>> In terms of 'Annual Output Per Person in Dollars Adjusted to 
>> Purchasing Power Parity,' Greece is in the same category with 
>> Turkiye.

>You don't get it, do you, Hasan? is the Output Per Person in Dollars
>Adjusted to Purchasing Power the only benchmark you can judge an
>economy by? 

It is the best evidence...

>I asked for GNP figures, and you keep parroting something
>else because it supports your theory. I presented several figures
>which do not support your theory, and you chose to ignore them. Who's
>'straw-man'ning who?

Why not take several classes in 'International Economics?' But, please 
not in USC or Berkeley.

>Now, for the last time, would you comment on this:
>GNP:	Greece: $6900		Turkey: $1700		[1990].

You don't get it - do you? It is 'meaningless.'

> Get a cup of Turkish coffee, 'Triantafyllopoulos.' By the way,
> how do you remember your last name?

>If you had devoted a bit more in actually talking to Greek people as
>opposed to flaming them left & right, you'd know by now that Greek is
>infinitesimally simpler than most other languages to spell once you
>know how to pronounce it.  Trianta means thirty, only one way to spell
>it. Fyllo means petal, hence no mispelling with filo (filos=friend).
>Triantafyllo actually means rose. So far no chance to mispell. 
>Poulos is the generic Greek suffix meaning son-of. 

Wow.

>As for coffee, I
>prefer Folgers. 

Is it safe?      

>> Hasan B-) Mutlu [plus obligatory Road Kill signature]. 

>PS: I saw from the message header that your message has been cross-posted
>across half the known universe. I trust my message was cross-posted as
>well? I stated quite clearly that I have no access to other news
>groups. If my message was cross-posted in its entirety, I complement
>you or whoever did it. 

Sometimes forgetting can be a blessing. You wouldn't want to 
remember everything that ever happened to you, and have all
that 'info' clogging up your mind.

>If not, so be it. As David Bowie said, "It's
>hard to be a Saint in the City".

Do not take life seriously; you will never get out of it alive.

Hasan B-) Mutlu

                     'Kill Turks and Kurds wherever you find them 
                      and in whatever circumstances you find them. 
                      Turkish children also should be killed as 
                      they form a danger to the Armenian nation.' 
                                     (Hamparsum Boyadjian - 1914)

Newsgroups: soc.culture.turkish