From: cup.portal.com!Tagi%portal@uunet.UU.NET
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Sexuality and Religion
Date: 1 Oct 92 22:09:17 GMT
Article-I.D.: ogicse.43536
Distribution: world
Organization: ----

9210.01 e.v.


[I apologize for any mix-up of quotations and attributions.  The post to
which I am responding seemed to be mixed up.  I did my best to fix it and
quite possibly messed it up more in the process.  Certainly the words were
written. ;>  -  Thyagi]


In this post I think we have many wonderful perspectives represented.  I
do my best to stick to the Middle Way.  :>


[Karen M. quotes these people and responds.  I respond as moved.]

Somebody (I will call them 'X'.) quotes Marc quoting Toshi:

How often do you feel sexual desires and feelings?


Marc:

You are putting this in the context of things which are usually considered
negative. Is this meant to imply sexuality where somehow bad?
If so, I'd like to hear your reasons.

[Did we ever hear from Toshi on this?]


Karen M.:

..For the past several thousand years there has 
been an attitude that sex is bad in many of the world religions. 


Response:

This depends who you study with and who you listen to, but I agree that
there is quite a heavy focus on asceticism in its worst sense (i.e.
'sex is bad') in most major religions.


Karen:

It is
MY belief that we are here to learn how to be human in a spiritual way,
but not to deny that we are human. I think that we need to experience 
all there is to be human, through various methods of interconnectedness
and other ways.   


Response:

That seems reasonable, as long as one posits a 'reason for being'.
Your beliefs seem very Christian in tone as becomes more apparent later.


Karen:

"ONE" way to do this is through coupling in a 
sexual fashion. Between kundalini and tantra yoga is a beginning of what
I am actually talking about... 


Response:

This is unclear.  We are certainly speaking about sex.  You seem to be
suggesting that there are more and less 'spiritual' means of engaging
in sexual activity.


Karen:

if I was going to just be spiritual, why 
would I go to all the trouble of manifesting a body in a sexually defined
world? It seems to me that we are here to learn and experience something, 
not to avoid it.


Response:

I assume you meant this rhetorically, but I'm fairly bold.  Possibilities:
We might not be 'manifesting a body'.  There may not be anything
manifesting in any case.  Perhaps we manifested in order to write these
fascinating words here on this screen.  Maybe we manifested to learn how
to become unattached to sexuality.  Maybe we came here to learn how to
enjoy bodily form.  Maybe, just maybe, sexuality and spirituality AREN'T
two different things. ;>


X:

I don't know what Toshi will have to say about this, but some things occurred
to me. According to many spiritual traditions, the usual sorts of sexual
desires and feelings are considered in a negative way. Why? Because they
foster identification with the material body and ego in the heaviest possible
way.   ...


Karen:

Here we come to the fine points of the definition of the different levels
of the uses of sexuality. 


Response:

I agree with X's words above.  Karen's are beginning to strike me as somewhat
ascetic.  'Uses of sexuality'?  This makes it sound as if sexuality isn't
perfect just as it is.


Karen:

I think that rutting is not a positive thing
in that it is not likely to help one in one's spiritual path; it is
however a stress relief, and as such probably not negative in my view, 
except in very mundane circumstances. :-)  


Response:

Note the continued separation between 'spiritual' and 'mundane'.  This is
why I mentioned the heavy Christian bias, though I suppose some other
traditions equally use such terms.  

I wonder what 'mundane circumstances' would show 'rutting' to be a negative
thing.  Whether it helps one along in one's 'spiritual path' depends what
our attitude toward it is and how one sees one's partner (s) and oneself.


Karen:

As one gets farther along
the path, sexual bonding and merging is usually something that one wants
to do only with people of similar paths and levels of understanding.


Response:

I don't know that this is true.  It would seem that as one 'gets farther
along' one's path begins to break down and fuse into that of all else.
In such a case, perhaps you are correct because EVERYONE is then seen
to be following a 'similar path'.  My own experience leads me to think
more and more that the further I go I wish to come closest to That which
is most UNlike myself, That Other which understands all that I do not.


Karen:

To wit, it becomes something of a tool to sharing auras and learning
the other person and ones self. Sex can be draining and exhausting,
but if one participates with another of like vibrational level, it
can be invigorating and life-giving.


Response:

I'm not sure I understand this, but I think I agree.  Then again, when
sex becomes a 'tool' it quite often stops being spontaneous.  I tend
to like my sex unplanned, uncontrolled, and unconditioned.


X:
 ... In any case, those who engage in sex should do so for
the deliberate purpose of having a child, who would be raised by the parents
to become a spiritually progressive person whose main interest is spiritual
advancement and helping others make spiritual advancement. Arranging one's
life to accomplish this, before-during-and after the sex act itself is an act
of spiritual sacrifice, and in this context the enjoyment of sex is
spiritually legitimate. 


Karen:

Here is where I draw the line... this is part of the "old religions" 
that is not in my reality... it sounds also like some of the stuff
perpetuated by the Mormon church in some of its members. Yuck!! 


Response:

I tend to agree with Karen's assessment here.  X seems to be arranging for
us all a society much like Atwood described in her book, _Handmaid's Tale_.
Honestly, all this differentiating between 'sexuality' and 'spirituality'
would be quite amusing if it weren't so prevelant.


Karen:

Again
I reitterate that it is my belief that we are here to learn how to be
Human Beings not to deny our humanity. 


Response:

Or our divinity. ;>


X:

Even so, according to the progressive stages of life
outlined in the system of varnas and ashramas, at around age 50 or so, the
husband and wife would abstain from further sex and prepare themselves to
reach their spiritual destinations at the time of death.  


Karen:

Yeah, since hormonal activity is necessary to maintain a body over a 
long and healthy life, this would follow, that one should then prepare
for death... unless of course the person has evolved so far as to be
capable of stimulating his adrenal glands... this is very rare in 
the general populace...!!


Response:

Interesting.  It is my understanding that this story about sex-life
dropping off after a certain age is the most horrible of FICTIONS!
I hope, if this is indeed the case, that if this fiction is taken as
fact the two meet somewhere and have some tea.  Is either X OR Karen
near 50 and thus representing a view from EXPERIENCE here?

Go gonads go!!!


Note regarding my own preferences:

I like to think that the mundane and the divine are ONE.  Humanity/Nature
and God are One also, and the Buddha teaches me to find my connection,
as the Child of the Divine, to that perfect Oneness which transcends and
infuses all apparent separation.  Kali asks me to make love with Her.
She says that neither She nor I shall survive the experience, yet we
shall be together in eternal timeliness.

And yes, I think that something incredible worthwhile ('spiritually'?  yes)
can be achieved when one takes the time to engage in an afternoon's rutting.
Is sex bad?  Is God?  Is Buddha?  What DOES 'bad' mean, anyway?



Thyagi
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"So we'll go to the top of the toppest blue space,
The Official Katroo Birthday Sounding-Off Place!
Come on!  Open your mouth and sound off at the sky!
Shout loud at the top of your voice, 'I AM I!
ME!
I am I!
And I may not know why
But I know that I like it.
_Three cheers_!  I AM I!'"


Theodor Geisel   (Dr. Seuss)