From: perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (Eric S. Perlman)
Subject: Re: Torture in Israel (was Re: The Hadith about...)
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 04:45:59 GMT

In article <1992Dec23.194400.3860@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> wmuhanna@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Waleed A Muhanna) writes:
>In article <1992Dec23.174634.13539@colorado.edu> perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (Eric S. Perlman) writes:
>>In article <1992Dec23.152007.966@cbfsb.cb.att.com> mmdh@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (Mazen Mokhtar) writes:
>>>Eric S. Perlman writes:
>>>
>>>>The situation of Palestinians may not be the best,
>>>
>>>  That is for sure.
>>>
>>>>but if you want to use the comparison then answer me these questions: where
>>>>are the gas chambers?
>>>
>>>  Instead, we have people burried alive by buldozers and houses of people who
>>>are not even suspect destroyed. People are expelled out of their country and
>>>their land and property is given to foreigners.
>>...
>>>
>>>  In the Negev desert among other places are camps where innocent people are
>>>incarcerated for extended periods of time without even a charge. They are
>>>subjected to torture from which they frequently die.
>>
>>and aunts who still bear the scars as survivors.  Second of all the 
>>charges of torture are way overblown.  The US's reports on human rights 
>>show this clearly. 
>
>Care to show which US human rights report "SHOWS CLEARLY" that the charges 
>of torture are "WAY OVERBLOWN"?  Or is this another of your gems?
>
>The 1991 (the most recent) US State Department report on human rights
>practices in "Israel and the occupied territories", which I have in 
>front of me, says:
>
>      ``In 1991 interntional, Israeli, and Palestinian human rights
>	groups published detailed credible reports of torture, abuse,
>	and mistreatment of Palestinian detainees in prisons and 
>	detention centers.  The practices reportedly included hooding;
>	deprivation of food, sleep, and sanitary facilities; forced
>	standing; confinement in a narrow, small space; slaps, blows
>	and beatings; and threats against the detainee or his family.
>	Most such abuses take place immediately after arrest and during
>	the first few days of detention and interrogation when detainees
>	are denied access for family members, attornies, and the
>	International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC).  The ICRC cites
>	this isolation period as an issue of great concern.
>
>	Aside from these forms of abuse, a Palestinian human rights
>	organization reported in detail eight credible cases of
>	electric-shock torture in the Hebron military headquarters
>	between April and September 1991.  Other allegations of the use
>	of electric shock in Hebron, bethlehem, and Ramallah (possibly
>	involving the same group of interrogators) were under
>	investigation at year's end.''

Indeed, the next paragraph also says that

	As a result of the reports alleging mistreatment during
	interrogation noted above, the IDF in 1991 instituted an
	internal investigation which recommended, among other things,
	that IDF personnel no longer be involved in interrogating 
	Palestinians.  The Ministry of Justice and General Security 
	Services (GSS, also known as Shin Bet) began a second invest-
	igation, but the results of their efforts have not been made
	public.  IDF authorities report that, of 16 complaints of
	mistreatment made against IDF interrogators, 8 were dismissed 
	after investigation, 4 are still under investigation, and the
	findings in the remaining 4 investigations were forwarded to the
	military prosecutor for decision.

I find it rather interesting that Muhanna did not quote this section.
Why?  The report shows, clearly, that Israel is not perfect.  Nor am I
trying to claim perfection for Israel.  However, it also shows that when
abuses happen in Israel, actions are taken to rectify the situation.
Cases are investigated, and prosecuted when necessary.  In addition,
top-level investigations occur when credible reports do come out - note
that my message was not meant as a blanket condemnation of all
Palestinian groups' reports as unreliable - and changes are made.  I
find it interesting, however, that the US state department's report does
anything but echoes Mr. Shavit's charges, which seem typical of charges
I've seen from organizations like the PHRIC.  Indeed, the State
Department's report, in other sections, not quoted by Muhanna, goes on
to mention in great deal the large numbers of guarantees available,
including writs of habeas corpus and the like.  

I don't agree with everything Israel does.  I've said this before, and
I'll say it again.  I disagree with the practice of torture.  But Israel
takes such things very seriously - as is shown by its investigation and
*prosecutions* of those involved in torture.  It's not the rule.  It's
the exception.  That's something that groups like the PHRIC will not
say; indeed, they say it's the exception, but the State Department's
report makes just the opposite clear (and yes, I too have the report
right in front of me).  

It's the combination of this, plus previous reports which have done
similar things (and, I should add - purely from memory - not given as
much credence to reports from, e.g., al-Haq), that was the basis of my
remark, which I stand by.  

As far as Ari Shavit's essay, I will withhold comments on a concrete
basis till I've read the essay and any replies which showed up in
subsequent issues.  Meanwhile, I'll end by echoing Harry Mamaysky's
comments relating to Ari Shavit's essay.  Harry - a very well-written
reply.

-- 
"How sad to see/A model of decorum and tranquillity/become like any other sport
A battleground for rival ideologies to slug it out with glee." -Tim Rice,"Chess"
     Eric S. Perlman 				 <perlman@qso.colorado.edu> 
  Center for Astrophysics and Space Astronomy, University of Colorado, Boulder
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.arabic