From: gmark@cbnewse.cb.att.com (gilbert.m.stewart)
Subject: Re: T: To All MENSA Members...
Organization: AT&T
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 17:53:49 GMT

In article <1992Jul27.000857.3203@ncsu.edu>, sat@ailab.ncsu.edu (Scott Andrew Tai) writes:
> 
>      I think there is a major need for some kind of advocacy or activist 
> organization supporting intelligence.  Highly intelligent people are a 

This may be true, but the inertia of society has for a long time been
to provide "positive self-image" at the expense of demanding responsibility
for achievement.  Treating the symptom and not the cause.  I believe this
is currently on the wane, thankfully.  It's one of the side-effects from
realizing that resources are finite and somebody has to figure a way
out of problems rather than just patting themselves on the back and saying
how innately valuable we all are by merely having been born.  Sort of
like having a high IQ and doing nothing with it, I think.

> tremendous social asset.  From them society gets works of major importance
> that benefit all of us.  Yet for years we have been going through 
> anti-intellectual phases and anti-science phases.  Textbooks are being
> dumbed down and rewritten to accomodate social agendas.  Achievement tests

This is another symptom of "Johnny can't read.  So talk slowly."
Again, the current trend (hopefully it will continue) is to realize that
dumb=out-of-business.

> under the theory that sacrificing the intelligent is fine because it's
> not fair that they're smarter.  Society seems to be slipping into an

They are perceived as "those in power".  Simple minds tend to overgeneralize
and to find someone to blame.  That's why people joke about "killing yuppies"
as though it's some kind of "blow for the underdog".

> egalitarian phase and is denying differences exist.  If differences are 
> too great to pretend they're not real, then programs to level the 
> differences are initiated.  
> 
>      The problem with MENSA is the 2% rule, and it should be dropped.

I have no opinion on this currently, but don't see how this follows
from anything previously said.

> 
>      I have felt for some time that MENSA members can be roughly
> categorized into one of two groups.  Group A consists of those people
> whose lives are centered around a test score, and joined for the ego
> stroking they believe an elite organization can give them. Group B

Sort of like people in general from any group of any noted exceptionality.
Smart assholes exist, too.

> are those people who joined for more nobler reasons as stated in the
> MENSA charter.  The responses I've received were consistent with this
> grouping.  The telling point separating the groups is not whether they
> agreed with me or not; it's the approach they took when confronted with
> an idea challenging and possibly disturbing.
> 
>      One group put their fingers in their ears, closed their eyes,
> and howled insults and nitpicked trivial details.  The other was
> inquisitive, open-minded, and asked questions.  First group offered 
> nothing of substance, demanded sources supporting my claims, and gave 
> none for theirs.  The second group searched for where the truth was and 
> offered fresh points-of-view, in the process causing me to modify some 
> of mine.  This division always shows up when MENSA is criticized. 
> Group B people ask for more facts, sometimes express their own 

I'm having a hard time believing that this is a surprise to anyone.
Why would Mensa have a different reaction than a cross-section of any
other group on earth?  The problem with the human brain is not that it
needs to be smarter.  The problem is that it needs to be used in the
single way that it is different from most other mammalian brains.
It needs to be used to reason.  Get rid of all the self-help books,
books in the "inner child", books on "touching your feelings", books
on "blaming the other guy", dump some crap from the school curriculums
and teach reasoning to kids.  Before the Care Bears destroy Mr. Grim
Badguy with Love Rays, let the kids be exposed to logic.  Tell them
why you should behave in a positive way.  How to reason why it's
illogical to hate someone for being a member of a different group.
Not that it's Bad.  That it's impractical.  It doesn't work.
It's simply stupid.

> frustration, and are eager for discussions on how to make MENSA better.
> Group A people always say it must be due to sour grapes, then when you

It often is.  That's "human nature".  

> point out that you qualify, they then claim MENSA is really nothing
> more than a social club.  This last claim of joining for social reasons
> has always sounded hollow.  First, any area large enough for a MENSA
> chapter will also have any number of other clubs, and any interest
> club on an intellectual subject will be overloaded with intelligent
> people.  Second, unless one is a gross underachiever, anyone bright
> enough to qualify for MENSA will be surrounded by intelligent people
> at college or at work. Group A people join for ego reasons and bring
> nothing to the organization.

Here, as you might be aware, you make a generalization.  It is true that
a person MAY be surrounded by bright people at work.  It is also incorrect
to dismiss the social benefits of Mensa.  Further, it is my experience
that few general groups are "flooded with intelligent people".  It is
rare for someone to say "I don't have an opinion.  I don't have facts
on that subject."  I have often listened to discussions where the
participants have loads of opinions, thrust them out as facts, spewing
ignorant bile and wastes of bandwidth in the delusion that it constitutes
debate, when those with the most to say have the least information.
Stupid people appear to "flood into groups" the most.  Listen to a
talk show.  It is correct not to call them "discussion" shows.  Ask
most people what constitutes an "argument" and they'll say something
like "lotsa' hollering and stuff".

> When it is discovered the 2% rule is gone, and the lure for Group A 
> people is gone, and that MENSA is now living up to its full charter, 
> MENSA's appeal will broaden enormously.  The quality of the people won't

I don't know how you would go about describing a group like this.  What
would you call it?  "Smart Folks 'R' Us"?  Who decides?  For that matter,
how do you keep the "stupid" out and how would you decide?  Just as we
do on a personal level?  I can walk around and say, "Stupid.  Not stupid.
Stupid." myself, but this is my opinion.  For that matter, if what you
said about intelligent people being surrounded by other intelligent 
people is true, this group, or many like it, already exists.  I've been
to "Salons" -- discussion get-togethers at folks' houses -- and I've
found these people to be intelligent.  The fact is that the problem
is not that "smart" people don't already get things done.  The problem
is that stupid people do too.

> suffer, and may even go up, on average.  Members will now be active and 
> motivated, and the attitude towards MENSA by even non-members will 
> become one of respect towards an organization fulfilling a goal 
> important to society.
> 
>      Can this happen?  Don't know.  Can Group A people grow and become

These groupings are, of course, oversimplified and incomplete.  There
is obviously overlap and at least one other group, the group that likes
to party with higher concentrations of smart people.

> Group B people?  If not, does Group A outnumber Group B?  Will Group A 
> resist dropping the 2% rule?   The net reaches every branch of MENSA, 
> so this is a call for someone in every branch to start discussing 
> repeal.  I hope it can be done.

There's nothing preventing you from starting a group with the criteria you've
attempted to describe.  Certainly easier than describing it, in all
seriousness.  For that matter, starting to hold meetings (a' la the
salons) to brainstorm on that very topic and thus begin the formation
of a group is as simple as sending out invitations and making sure
you have snacks on hand for the evening.  You might even start a
Mensa SIG whose purpose is to discuss this AND to invite non-members
to join in.

Call it the Antimensa group and the SIG the Antimensig.

Any reason to party, any reason to argue a point, I say.

Go for it!

GMS
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa