From: bkoike@sdcc13.ucsd.edu (Bryce Koike)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: game vs reality simulation
Date: 2 Oct 92 14:37:57 GMT
Article-I.D.: sdcc12.38888
Organization: University of California, San Diego

In article <1992Oct1.133721.4073@news.columbia.edu> jhk6@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (John H Kim) writes:
>In article <38826@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> bkoike@sdcc13.ucsd.edu (Bryce Koike) writes:
>>	I would like to point out that a 15 HT is not just "better
>>than average."  A 15 HT is most likely VERY better than average if
>>not (at the very least) EXTREMELY better.  People like this are
>>probably VERY rare and are definitely going to stand out in their
>>field.  (In this case, this person is one of the hardiest, healthies
>>people alive...)
>
>	This seems like a fine definition, but it is clearly not what 
>GURPS says. Read the attribute table descriptions. 

	I think that this has been gone over before and it's quite
obvious that the attribute table descriptions are wrong.  It is very
obvious, however, that a character with a 15 stat is well-above
average and stands head and shoulders above the average folk.  18 is
considered the absolute maximum for humans in GURPS (without some
sort of strange augmentation, I suppose) and I seriously doubt that
any of us here have met a human being that could be considered to
have an 18 statistic.  (Well, we can all argue that Einstein and
Stephen Hawking have 18 IQ's, etc...whatever.)

>	Now, of course, one can say it is the table descriptions which 
>are wrong rather than the dying rules - but I think that the dying 
>rules are unrealistic even if these people are rare. 

	I don't think that you understand.  These are quite possibly
THE hardiest people you've ever met and will ever meet.  Period.  If
it's any consolation, I'll whip out my books tonight and run some
sample combats and try to kill a couple 15 HT guys and see what
happens.  This is all ignoring GM's discretion and the like, of
course  (which, in the end, is the ultimate game rule of all...)
	Being THE hardiest people you've (and anyone else) will ever
meet, they're definitely going to stand out.  They can take more
damage, they tend not to be phased by damage, and yes, they can
withstand more damage.  There have been in the past many stories
(I'm talking about real stories) about people who SHOULD have died
based on their injuries, but lived for hours.  While this may seem
unrealistic to you, it happened in real life, so who am I to argue?

>	My problem is not so much from a game balance standpoint, but 
>rather from believability standpoint. The first GURPS game I was in, 
>we were faced with a hijacker who we literally emptied our pistols into, 
>and we were seriously worried that we would run out of ammunition before 
>he dropped. At this point, the GM called a halt, and after that session 
>we revised the rules to something much harsher: roll HT minus the number 
>of hits you are negative to stay concious at negative HT, and a cumulative 
>-1 per death check after the first. 

	Well, I'm not going to apologize for your lacking combat
skills.  (No offense intended here...read on)  The fact is that in
combat, people tend to aim for the HEAD or the VITALS, and not the
chest.  They are aiming with intent to KILL a person.  You and your
friends were just firing wildly, greatly reducing any chance you had
to kill the guy.  Next time, remember to fire for the vitals or the
head (the head's a nice double-whammy...guy has to roll to stay
conscious and if you do enough damage, he's got to roll to stay
alive as well).
	I continuously tell my players that I'm using hit locations,
but they continuously ignore me and so I end up waking them up by
seriously injuring their characters in what seemed to be a "minor"
gunfight save for one thing:  all the bad guys aimed for vital areas
with intent to kill the players.  They finally managed to mop up,
but they weren't in very good condition afterward...
	[and in my opinion, a successful shot to the vitals or the
brain and the like pretty much ignores first aid rolls.  You can
stop external bleeding, but internal injuries will continue...]

>	This was fairly neccessary since ours was a sci-fi game which had 
>a number of 'genies': genetically engineered types, who often had very 
>high levels of ST and HT - but not engineered enough to justify being 
>unable to stop them with a revolver. 

	Again, I'll try out a few combats and see what "really"
happens.  The main points are the shoot for the vitals or the head.
A "chest" hit means that your shot was not well-placed enough to
penetrate an organ.  The bullet hit bones and glanced off, etc.

>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>John Kim                    | Alice: "But if I wasn't real, I shouldn't be 
>jhk6@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu | able to cry."  Tweedledum: "I hope you don't
>Columbia University         | imagine those are *real* tears."