HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mvishnu@morse.uwaterloo.ca (m vishnu)
Subject: Re: Vedas are NOT shit ( was  Re: Animal Sacrifice in Temples
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1992 22:46:44 GMT

In article <1992Sep04.213607.126603@ua1ix.ua.edu> ngopalas@ha15.eng.ua.edu (Nath S. Gopalaswamy) writes:
>In article <1992Sep4.180533.11661@engage.pko.dec.com>, thiyagarajan@mims.enet.dec.com (RT) writes:
>|> 
>|> 
>|> In article <42433@ogicse.ogi.edu>, partha@mse.cse.ogi.edu (R. Parthasarathy) writes...
>|> >Meenan Vishnu writes:
>|> > 
>|> >> but, hope that you don't treat this as a flame.
>|> >>There is a saying in coimbatore area.
>|> >>"saathathilE pee irukku, iruthaapale oothunu sonnana
>|> > 
>|> >Partha sarathy
>|> 
>
>
>Who the hell is this Meenan Vishnu guy? He is lucky that Hinduism is
 a tolerant 
>religion. If he had said that the Quran is like shit, he would be

First of all please learn to read news articles! (HINT: Count the
number of '>' characters).  AS I HAD WRITTEN 
RESPONDED EARLIER I DID NOT WRITE THE ABOVE LINE.  No one here is
talking about Hinduism.  People are talking about Animal Sacrifices.
So please do not act like a scatter-brain and start babbling.

>and if one has nothing decent to say, SHUT UP.  

You have to say that to Wendy O'Flaherty, one of the contmporary
Vedic scholar because I took my excerpts directly from her 
book. (Rig Veda)

>Nath.

Meenan Vishnu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil,soc.culture.indian,soc.culture.indian.telugu,alt.culture.kerala
From: shiva@b30.ingr.com (Shiva Shivakumar)
Subject: Re: ...... QWERTY keyboard designed by a tamilian ... ?
Organization: Intergraph
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 17:29:55 GMT

In article <kat.715619953@sybok> kat@doe.carleton.ca (Kathiravan Krishnamurthi) writes:
>In <1992Sep4.020918.4642@noose.ecn.purdue.edu> achanta@oats.ecn.purdue.edu (Achanta ) writes:
>
>>In article <1992Sep3.230459.28314@cs.wayne.edu> uds@wsu-eng.eng.wayne.edu (Seetamraju Udaybhaskar) writes:
>>>In article <1992Sep3.220304.6936@wuecl.wustl.edu> sp2@cec1.wustl.edu (Sundara Pandian) writes:
>>>> ( horse sacrifice ) is reported twice in Valmiki Ramayana, one by
>>>> Dasaradha and the other by Rama. Graphic details are given in the
>>>> same epic. Bhagavatham reports Prthu magaraja performing an aswamedha
>>>					^^^
>>>
>>>I wonder if the standard keyboard that everyone uses (called the 
>>>QWERTY keyboard) was designed by tamilians -- because the G and H
>>>are next to each other.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Seetamraju Udaya Bhaskar Sarma
>>>(email : seetam @ ece7 . eng . wayne . edu)
>>>
>>>To the members of SCT ---- ;-);-);-);-);-);-);-);-)
>
>>Our Seetam.... seems to have a problem with Tamilians. He never misses a chance
>>to take-off on them. Can anyone enlighten me on the source of the problem ?
>>Srini
>
>
>   Intolerance, lack of knowledge and perspective, sinking
>deep in the well of dogmatic hatred caused by inferiority
>complex etc.
>
>Kathiravan
>
>.

Che che! How can you say that ? You should be put in an I-RUN cage and placed
in a JOO. ..)

Mr. Kathiravan,

Do you know that the Telugu word for Tamizh is "aravam" meaning "unmusical".
Contrast this with Baaradhiyaar's "Sundara telungu".

Talking about such feelings between communities that share racial, cultural
and many other features, we should realize that the great Indian epic
MaGaabaratham is nothing but a glorious description of fights between brothers.

Jagadisan Shivakumarulu
From: mohan@tnds09.tele.nokia.fi (Lavanya-Mohan)
Subject: Re: reply to mohan
Organization: /user1/u1/mohan/.organization
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 08:09:14 GMT

In article <95965@bu.edu> hari@bass.bu.edu (hariharane ramasamy) writes:


   I wrote:

   President Lincoln gave a reason (that the government does not help some
   on the sweat of others) for which one must not rebel. But, you say that
   people shouldn't rebel for *any matter* at all! I don't see any sensible
   connection here.

   I would appreciate if you try to understand the sayings of great people,
   before you quote them.

   // Mohan

   ---------------------------------------------

   hari@bass.bu.edu (hariharane ramasamy) wrote:

   I meant that rebelling against the govenment on the basis of
   ethnic differences, for a separate country. if you have a genuine
   reason to fight for fight but it should not be a basis for
   asking a separate country. 

   hari

   ----------------------------------------------


Whatever you meant, quoting what President Lincoln said has still no sensible
connection at all to what you imply or mean! President Lincoln has clearly
pointed out a reason for which one must not rebel; and what you say has
nothing to do with the reason given by Lincoln. OK?

Leaving Lincoln's quote, if we just take what you mean, then I noticed that
Asokan has given a good reply already.

// Mohan


--
=  S. Lavanya-Mohan               E-mail:    mohan@tele.nokia.fi    =
=  Nokia Telecommunications       Telephone: +358-0-511 5671        =
=  Finland                        Telefax:   +358-0-511 5615        =
=====================================================================
Xref: sparky soc.culture.tamil:2176 soc.culture.indian:31101 soc.culture.indian.telugu:10
From: viswanath@draco.rutgers.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil,soc.culture.indian,soc.culture.indian.telugu
Subject: Re: Tamil, Sanskrit and North Indian languages
Date: 14 Sep 92 16:52:13 GMT
Followup-To: soc.culture.tamil
Organization: Rutgers University RUCS-Newark

In article <BuJ3En.FKn@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca>, selvakum@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca (C.R.Selvakumar - Electrical Engineering) writes:
> 
> Sanskrit : chaaTi, chaatta , chadda = 'pot',  
> Prakrit:  chadda ='oil vessel in a lamp'    Pali: chaaTi ='vessel,jar,measure' 
>                                              Bhojpuri: --------------
> Gypsy (european): chaaro ='bowl, pan'        Bihari : chaar(d) ='earthern 
>                                                       vessel for grain' 
> ----------------------------
and examples from various other Indian languages.

> R.L.Turner's acknowledgement of root: <--- Dravidian (Tamil:chatti, chaadi)
> 

English has a word 'shard' which I have seen used mainly in archeology;
it means "a broken piece of earthenware" according to the Oxford American
Dictionary.  I have not checked its etymology.  However (realizing fully
well that the similarity of sounds may be coincidental), may one suggest 
that there may be two similar roots, one Indo-European and the other
Dravidian?  

P.V. Viswanath
From: hari@bass.bu.edu (hariharane ramasamy)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil
Subject: reply to mohan
Date: 14 Sep 92 18:27:39 GMT
Organization: Boston University

From bu.edu!olivea!uunet!mcsun!news.funet.fi!funic!nokia.fi!newshost!mohan Sun Sep 13 20:08:31 EDT 1992
Article: 1914 of soc.culture.tamil
From: mohan@tnds05.tele.nokia.fi (Lavanya-Mohan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil
Subject: Re: a worthy article to read
Date: 13 Sep 92 12:33:18 GMT
Organization: /user1/u1/mohan/.organization

In article <95836@bu.edu> hari@bass.bu.edu (hariharane ramasamy) writes:

	   The following text is one of the shortest and best speech
	   of Abraham Lincoln. I reproduce with all respect as it 
	   might throw some light on today's problems.

	   December 6, 1864

	   On thursday of last week two ladies from Tennesse came
	   before the President asking the release of their husbands 
	   held as prisoners of war at Johnson's Island. They were put
	   off till friday, and were again put off to saturday. At 
	   each of the interviews one of the ladies urged that her
	   husband was a religious man. On saturday the President ordered
	   the release of the prisonersand then said to this lady
	   "You say your husband is a religious man; tell him when
	   you meet him, that I say I am not much of a judge of
	   religion, but that in my opinion, the religion that sets
	   men to rebel and fight against their government, because
                                                            ^^^^^^^
	   as they think, that government does not sufficiently help
           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
	   some men to eat their bread on the sweat of other men's faces,
           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
	   is not the sort of religion upon which people can get to heaven!"


	   In my opinion a President is yet to come who cared so much
	   for a country for his speeches not aroused the mighty sound
	   of clapping hands when delivered rather a deep thinking 
	   emotional silence among the crowd. I agree totally with
	   the President that people who fight against the country
	   based on religious or any matters are not the persons
                              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
	   who deserve a homeland.


____________________________________________________________________
President Lincoln gave a reason (that the government does not help some
on the sweat of others) for which one must not rebel. But, you say that
people shouldn't rebel for *any matter* at all! I don't see any sensible
connection here.

I would appreciate if you try to understand the sayings of great people,
before you quote them.

// Mohan
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


I meant that rebelling against the govenment on the basis of
ethnic differences, for a separate country. if you have a genuine
reason to fight for fight but it should not be a basis for
asking a separate country. 

hari

--
=  S. Lavanya-Mohan               E-mail:    mohan@tele.nokia.fi    =
=  Nokia Telecommunications       Telephone: +358-0-511 5671        =
=  Finland                        Telefax:   +358-0-511 5615        =
=====================================================================
From: thaya@Lise.Unit.NO (Thayanantha Balasundaram)
Subject: Re: kamban-Ramaayanam
Followup-To: m
Keywords: do not bore me
Organization: Norwegian Institute of Technology
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 92 18:12:36 GMT

In article <1992Sep5.173246.19770@hubcap.clemson.edu>, sdeepak@hubcap.clemson.edu (shankar deepak) writes:
 > Hi guys
 > 	I spoke to a travel agent in Colorado by the name of Elliots
 > Travel. He has offered me  a good deal on tickets to India. I want to know whether any of you have any experiences dealing with. I would be
 > grateful if you could provide me any info on his reliability.
 > 
 > Thanx
 > Deepak
 > e-mail:sdeepak@eng.clemson.edu
 > 	sdeepak@hubcap.clemson.edu
 > 


   is that kamban_Ramaayanam eller kumpan-raamaayanam

   kumpan :=: kumpakarnan
   
   bye
Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil
From: thiyagarajan@mims.enet.dec.com (RT)
Subject: Re: 09/03 0745  TOTAL OF 24 PEOPLE KILLED, 67 INJURED IN SRI ...
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 13:52:37 GMT

-Message-Text-Follows-

In article <Bu6K7H.MEF@mentor.cc.purdue.edu>, nish@cv1.chem.purdue.edu (Nishantha I.) writes...
>COLOMBO (SEPT. 3) XINHUA - A total of 24 people were  killed  and
>   The bomb attack against a civilian target was the second  dur-
>ing the past week by the LTTE, which is fighting in the north and
>east of the island country  for  the  establishment  of  separate
>state of minority Tamils.
>   The LTTE blasted a private bus at a bus stand in  Trincomalee,
>capital of the eastern province, killing 8 civilians and wounding
>another 26.
> 

All LTTE jalras, note-down this. Many more civilian killings by LTTE to come

RT
> 
> 
> 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil
From: pvr@argo.rice.edu (PVR Narasimha Rao)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil,soc.culture.indian,soc.culture.indian.telugu
Subject: Re: 'Sundara' Telungu (was Re: Telugu and Tamil)
Keywords: Telugu, Tamil and Telungu
Date: 15 Sep 1992 03:29:45 GMT
Organization: Rice University


In article <2AB52BF1.9962@news.service.uci.edu>, sundar@indigo1.hsis.uci.edu (M. Sundaramoorthy) writes:


|> 	Aside: I heard two explanations for the origin of the word Telugu.
|> 	(1). It is derived from 'tri linga' desam, language of the land of
|> 	     three lingams and 


The three lingas are "Sri Sailam", "Sri Kalahasti" and "Bhimeswaram".

There are some documentations of the words "trilinga desam" and "trilinga
bhasha" having been used in old shila_shasana's.

Also, in old poetry, we find "telungu" in the place of "telugu". The assumption
is "trilinga" became "telunga", "telungu", "telugu".

Even a few decades back, while writing "telugu", traditionalists used to put
an "ara sunna" (ardhaanuswaar - half nasal) between lu and gu, which means
there was a nasal between them and it was dropped in usage.


|> 	(2). 'thenugu' ie. sweet like honey.


|> M. Sundaramoorthy
|> sundar@indigo1.hsis.uci.edu


PVR
Xref: sparky soc.culture.tamil:1969 soc.culture.indian:30452
From: raj@utkvx3.utk.edu (S. KANAKA RAJ)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil,soc.culture.indian
Subject: Re: Religious Belief = Faith, a reply to S. Pandian
Date: 6 Sep 92 20:13:00 GMT
Organization: University of Tennessee Computing Center
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <lag0maINNlct@bathtub.cs.utexas.edu>,
raman@cs.utexas.edu (Raman Rajagopalan) writes...

>I am a Brahmin.  I enjoy doing my sandyavandanam.

Have you renounced all your material enjoyments? Are you mentally pure? Taking
bath a hundred times a day makes your body pure; but not the mind. Are you
giving spiritual guidance to people? Have you realized that ONE or alleast had
a glimpse of IT? Do you get your food as a compensation for doing pujas and
teaching spiritual lessons to common people so that they can understand that
Unknown? If you say yes to these, then you are a Brahmin which means one who
has realized the Brahman; otherwise, you are not a Brahmin. By calling yourself
a Brahmin, you are cheating yourself and also others which is more dangerous.
If you want to know about who is a Brahmin, read a book on Manu's (the first
Man) law.

No hard feelings.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Rituals are necessary only for the beginners; true religion does not need any.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
From: raman@cs.utexas.edu (Raman Rajagopalan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil
Subject: Re: more parallels: anti-vedic postings and missionaries
Date: 8 Sep 1992 11:08:10 -0500
Organization: CS Dept, University of Texas at Austin
NNTP-Posting-Host: bathtub.cs.utexas.edu

In article <1992Sep8.064418.930@wuecl.wustl.edu> sp2@cec1.wustl.edu (Sundara Pandian) writes:
>In article <laob2gINNnjs@bathtub.cs.utexas.edu> raman@cs.utexas.edu (Raman Rajagopalan) writes:


>>Let's stop these one-sided translations at least for that reason,
>>if nothing else, okay?
>
>    I will continue to post translations, critical articles and
> commentaries on vedas,brahmanas and related works. I will soon
> post what the popular stotras like Vishnu Sahasranama etc. say 
> on animal sacrifices ( yajnas ), castes ( varnas ) etc.,
>

I am not the only one who has found these translations offensive.
YOU as a group have been asked in a civil manner to desist; with
many unanswered arguments to support the claim that there is much
more good than bad in the works you critisize.  Also, I have pointed
out that many of the things you wish to reform have already been
reformed - vedic animal sacrifices are things of the ANCIENT past, for
example.

At this point I can only say that I am sorry that soc.culture.tamil
was created to allow you this chance to post all manners of
one-sided messages teeming with partial and in many cases, blatantly
WRONG information.

Besides, you write that you are not a religious person.  Then why
are you pestering me with your religious translations?  Why should
I believe that you will ever have anything positive to say on
religion when you are not even religious?

>
>>Kathiravan, Meenan Vishnu, and 
>>Pandian believe they are doing a service to all Tamils and Hindus 
>>by posting their translations of Hindu scripture. 
>  
>    Again I notice that you are categorizing me with Kathiravan
> and Meenan Vishnu. Are you playing a guessing game by guessing
> what I believe ? I won't reply any of your articles in future if 
> you categorize me with other writers of this net.
>>
>>- raman rajagopalan
>>

I am entitled to my opinions and methods of categorization as well.
If you are not doing a service (in your opinion), then why are
you intent on posting translations?  waste of my time and yours, I
submit.  The saying goes, "if the shoe fits, wear it"

>                                                          S.Pandian
>                                                   sp2@cec1.wustl.edu
>----------------------------------------------------------------------

- raman

Xref: sparky soc.culture.tamil:2214 soc.culture.indian:31271
From: sp2@cec1.wustl.edu (Sundara Pandian)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil
Subject: A short poem in Tamil : Vidiyal
Date: 9 Sep 92 20:52:46 GMT
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu


        vidiyal
       ----------
  kaththiyai chuzhatRinEn 
  pathinaaRadi thaandinEn
  vaanaththil paRandhEn
  mEgaththil aadinEn
  aanaal      
  paalkaaran bell chaththam kEttu
  ezhundhEn
  thookkam kettu.
                     - Vasishtha

--------------------------------------------------------------
 [ Posted by : S.Pandian ( sp2@cec1.WUSTL.edu ) ]
--------------------------------------------------------------
From: nas_ng@jsc.nasa.gov. (Naga Ganesan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil
Subject: Accessing Univ. Library??
Date: 11 Sep 1992 16:28:32 GMT
Reply-To: nas_ng@jsc.nasa.gov.
Organization: G.E. Government Services




Hi Netters,

  I am interested in accessing the library holdings of:

1) University of Pennsylvania, Philadelphia
2) Columbia University, New York
3) University of Wisconsin, Madison
4) University of Chicago
5) University of Texas, Austin

  If there are some telnet addresses, please email them to me:
nas_ng@gese03.jsc.nasa.gov

  Can we access RLIN or OCLC library catalogs ?

Thanx,

N. Ganesan
Xref: sparky soc.culture.tamil:1948 soc.culture.indian:30379
From: mvishnu@morse.uwaterloo.ca (m vishnu)
Subject: Carvaka  (was Re: Vedas are not SHIT)
Originator: mvishnu@morse.uwaterloo.ca
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 19:13:07 GMT


Carvaka
^^^^^^^

This is a materiliastic philosophy, very much opposed to the Vedic
practices.  It is also known as 'nastika' philosophy.  It's adherents
are vegetarian and holds the state law as the highest.

The origin of this philosophy can be traced as far as back as the Rig
Veda.  It is mentioned in the Epics as well as in the Dialogues of the
Buddha.  Even the Bhagavad Gita refers to it. [1]

The main work of this system, the Brhaspati Sutra (600 B.C) is not 
available.[1]

Here is a quote from the Sankara's Sarvadarsanasamgraha on Carvaka 
philosophy: (Taken from [1] "Indian Philosophy by Servappillai Radhakrishnan
page 233)

begin quote
------------------------------------------------------------------------
The fire is hot, the water is cold, refreshing cool the breeze of morn;
By whom came this variety ? from their own nature was it born.
And all this has been also said by Brhaspati--
There is no heaven, no final liberation, nor any soul in another world,
Nor do the actions of the four castes, orders, &c., produce any real
    effect.
The Agnihotra, the three Vedas, the ascetic's three staves, and 
    smearing oneself with ashes,
Were made by Nature as the livelihood of those destitute of 
    knowledge and manliness.
If a beast slain in the Jyotistoma rite itself go to heaven,
Why then does not the sacrificer forthwith offer his own father?
If the Sraaddha produces gratification to beings who are dead,
Then here, too, in the case of travellers when they start, it is
    needless to give provisions for the journey.
If beings in heaven are gratified by our offering the Sraaddha here,
Then why not give food down below to those who are standing on housetops?
While life remains let a man live happily, let him feed on ghee
    even though he runs on debt;
When once the body become ashes, how can it ever return again?
If he who departs from the body goes to another world,
How is it that he comes not back again, restless for love of his kindred?
Hence it is only as a means of livelihood that bramins have established
    here
All these ceremonies for the dead--there is no other fruit anywhere.
The three authors of the Vedas were baffoons, knaves, and demons.
All the well-known formulas of the pundits, jarphari, turphari, &c.,
And all the obscene rites for the queen commanded in the Aswamedha,
These were invented by baffoons, and so all the various kinds of 
    presents to the priests,
While eating of flesh was similarly commanded by night-prawling demons.
--------------------------------
end quote.

While I am not a nastika, I found its observations on the Vedas interesting.

Meenan Vishnu
From: raman@cs.utexas.edu (Raman Rajagopalan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil
Subject: Re: A CHALLENGE TO THE OPPONENTS OF CASTE BASED RESERVATIONS
Date: 15 Sep 1992 17:21:26 -0500
Organization: CS Dept, University of Texas at Austin
NNTP-Posting-Host: bathtub.cs.utexas.edu

In article <1992Sep14.202531.2871@coe.montana.edu> prem@cs.montana.edu (M.P.Premkumar) writes:
>>>Put in a nutshell here are my points:
>>> 
>>>1. The introduction of caste based reservations are justified.
>>>2. Their continuance is also justified.
>>>3. The percentages need to be reviewed and OC(Open Competition) needs to be 
>>>   widened.

>>RT
>
<forced to delete relevant material to be allowed to post successfully>

>But I had given my views then(in the midst of all that sniping)
>but no one cared to reply to me. 
>
>Forget the supporters atleast they can say "mounam sammatham". What about the
>opposers ? Where did they go ? Are they interested only in fighting but not
>interested in discussions ?  Or are they all supporting my views ?
>
>M.P.Premkumar

I had posted on this issue previously.  I was in the anti-reservations camp.
Your point Number (3) above takes into account my complaints about the 
reservation system. Nothing to object to here.  That's why I did not respond.
I suspect many others who were anti-reservations would accept your third
point as well, hence the lack of replies.

- raman rajagopalan
From: mohan@tnds05.newshost (Lavanya-Mohan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil
Subject: Re: Hypocracy.....in..
Date: 10 Sep 92 10:33:01 GMT
Organization: /user1/u1/mohan/.organization

In article <1992Sep9.122449.6166@engage.pko.dec.com> thiyagarajan@mims.enet.dec.com (RT) writes:

   > [Irrelevant stuff deleted ...]

   > Did vedas kill any inncocent people? Did vedas know of AK-47? If you can
   > provide any proof (may be sundara pandian or meenan may comeup with some
   > 'english' translation!)
   > Did vedas encourage killing fellow human beings?

Just a clarification! I do not know much about Vedas. But I have read in
MahAbAratham, that Lord Krishna himself guided Arjuna in the war and Arjuna
killed many (including his beloved teacher...); all with Krishna's guidence!
The principle is that a war for a just cause is justified. Krishna even
advised to Arjuna to do his "duty" in the war without any hesitance.

Whould you call Mr. Subash Chandrabose a terrorist?

Even Mahathma Ghandi justified using violence for women to escape from rape...

And what about killing as the last means of self defence....?

If killing is wrong whatever the circumstances are, then why almost all the
countries have armed forces for defence? Do you think it is to spread love?

If you sincerely search answers to all these questions..., well, you may im-
prove!

I don't encourage the use of violence, but all what I say is that the circum-
stances must be looked into...


// Mohan

--
=  S. Lavanya-Mohan               E-mail:    mohan@tele.nokia.fi    =
=  Nokia Telecommunications       Telephone: +358-0-511 5671        =
=  Finland                        Telefax:   +358-0-511 5615        =
=====================================================================
Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil