From: egl1@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu (Elizabeth G. Levy)
Subject: Re: U.S. Is Not Going to War in Somalia for any Good Reasons
Reply-To: egl1@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu (Elizabeth G. Levy)
Organization: Columbia University
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 15:25:22 GMT

In article <1gp1k5INNptg@CATHY.NA.CS.YALE.EDU> yarvin@cs.yale.edu (Norman Yarvin) writes:
>egl1@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu (Elizabeth G. Levy) writes:
>>>A communist rebellion is only suited for producing a communist state as the
>>>end product.
>>
>>This is true in a sort of tautological way.
>
>If you are going to respond, kindly respond to my full argument, rather than
>to the one sentence whose only function was to introduce it.

Apologies.  I was under the impression that I was responding by
arguing that the insurgents are seeking to replace or reinvent the
existing social system with one in which they would wield power.  To
effect this replacement, they would have to kill or silence the ones
that have (or are perceived to have) power.  This would be true of any
revolution, be it Communist, Fascist, Islamic Fundamentalist, what
have you.  Leninism was a blueprint for revolution, as it clearly
states the dos and don'ts of insurgency and the power structure that
would be created.  If you are following that blueprint, you will be
fighting a Communist insurgency (by definition) and will replace
existing social structures with the Leninist model of party
leadership.

>
>>  The thing about
>>Marxism/Leninism is that it provides a ready-made model and system to
>>revolt and fill in power vacuums.  It is generally easier to follow or
>>modify Lenin's notions of party leadership and social order than to
>>invent your own.
>
>But it is little easier than importing them from a western country.

No.  Western liberal democracies require hard work and patience.
Institutions most be formed and given legitimacy, and this is the work
of generations, not of a band of insurgents.  With Leninism, you have
the blueprint right there.  No assembly required.

>
>>  This is true for insurgents that are left out of a
>>nation's power structure, and must reinvent the social order if they
>>win
>
>Why would anybody reinvent the social order?

Because you are left out of the power structure, or because the
existing social order is perceived as unfair.

>Such enterprises are doomed to
>disaster anyway.  Humans are, intellectually, rather slow-moving creatures;
>one cannot change their entire supporting social system in the blink of an
>eye and still expect them to function well.

This is true of all political institutions, though.  As said early,
you cannot import Western liberal democracies, and expect them to
flourish overnight.

>>Perhaps not justify it, but it's possible to understand their
>>thinking.
>
>It's possible to understand everything.  Even the minds of communists.

Heh, heh.  That's the CS student in you talking ;-)

>
>>  Imagine yourself rebelling against a Western-sponsored
>>government in the 1960s, be it a relic of colonialism or something
>>more recent.  You're out of the power structure.  Leninism provides a
>>do-it-yourself blueprint for insurrection and for replacing the
>>existing power structure.  Further, to declare yourself a Communist
>>will get you military aid from the USSR or China, making things easier
>
>No, I wouldn't just have to declare myself a communist to get aid from
>them.  I'd have to send people for indoctrination in Russia, and I'd
>probably have to go there to be "educated" myself.  My troops would have to
>be instructed in Communist ideology too.  I'd probably have to let the
>Russians come over to my country to control, or at the very least observe my
>operation.  The Russians were not naive.  It was not possible to trick them
>into supporting a noncommunist revolution.

What would you do then, if you were a nationalist and wanted to see
Western influences out of your country?  (Actually, there are other
models of insurgency now.  In particular, the Iranian Revolution.)




--
The insane fear of socialism throws the bourgeois headlong into the
arms of despotism.
			-- Tocqueville, 1852
Newsgroups: alt.current-events.somalia