HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: tonyd@lclark.edu (Anthony Davis)
Newsgroups: or.politics
Subject: Re: America's jihad
Date: 15 Oct 92 12:59:40 GMT
Article-I.D.: lclark.1992Oct15.125940.29089
Distribution: or
Organization: Lewis & Clark College, Portland OR

In article <3730@master.CNA.TEK.COM> frankm@aspen.CNA.TEK.COM (Frank Miller) writes:
>In article <3727@master.CNA.TEK.COM> mikeq@freddy.CNA.TEK.COM (Mike Quigley) writes:
>>Okay, okay. Enough is enough already!
>>
>>Notwithstanding Oregon's attempt at ethnic cleansing (Meas. 9), how
>>long is this wacky religious jihad fad gonna last? 
>>
>>It's time we get back to our roots: smoke a little grass, drop
>>a little acid, travel cross-country in a magic bus named `Furthur.'
>>
>>Throw off all this anal retentiveness and plunk your twanger!
>>
>>
>>Mike
>>
>
>Ya know ... Ken Kessey lives in the hills in Southern Oregon 
>raising chickens.  Maybe he'd be willing to join up with you
>Mike ... 'The Merry Pranksters' could hit the road again!
>
>Jeez, after Measue 9 whats next ... the Inquisition?
>
>Earth-Piglet
>
>--
>Frank 'Scruff' Miller      "A Perl script is correct if it is halfway readable
>Tek CNA Division            and gets the job done before the boss fires you."
>frankm@master.CNA.TEK.COM   -Larry Wall

 i have heard reports that Ken Kesey is not a very nice man.

 Chunga Say : "Grow Your Own."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

i have lost my father to the industrial revolution... i must cry now...

tonyd
Newsgroups: or.politics,talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.libertarian
From: nelson@reed.edu (Nelson Minar)
Subject: Re: Measure 9 in Oregon
Organization: Reed College, Portland, OR
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 22:30:10 GMT
Reply-To: nelson@reed.edu (Nelson Minar)

In article <1992Oct7.181621.4432@sequent.com> gerrit@sequent.com (Gerrit Huizenga) writes:
>The sad part is that the "top lawyer" from the Heritage Foundation
>has evaluated the measure and claims that it is self-consistent and
>does not infringe on the U.S. Constitution.

exactly what this is a sad comment on is left as an exercise for the reader.

Another OCA lie - they claimed in the flyers they are dropping off at
people's houses that "there was a big boost for Measure 9 when NBC's
lawyers looked at Measure 9 and claimed it was constitutional." 

Only problem is, this turns out to be an outright lie. NBC's lawyers
never made any such judgement about Measure 9. NBC has asked the OCA
retract the statement. (anyone seen such a retraction? They're still
distributing the flyer..)

And remember - the communications director of the OCA was just found
guilty in civil court of assaulting a lesbian. I hate to sling mud,
but isn't this indicative what's going on here? 
                __
nelson@reed.edu \/  Look, over there, it's a real dog and it's really talking
Xref: sparky or.politics:284 talk.politics.misc:52659 alt.politics.libertarian:951
From: mdugan@oregon.uoregon.edu (Marianne Dugan)
Newsgroups: or.politics,talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.libertarian
Subject: Re: Measure 9 in Oregon
Date: 17 Oct 92 04:08:00 GMT
Article-I.D.: oregon.16OCT199221083911
Organization: University of Oregon
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <1688214239.PA146008@utkvm1.utk.edu>, PA146008@utkvm1.utk.edu (David Veal) writes...
> 
>>Go back and reread Mauberry vs. Madison (1803).  The Supreme Court
>>is the final interpreter of the Constitution and executive and legislative
>>branches are bound by its decisions.

Actually, it's Marbury, not Mauberry.

> 
>     The Supreme Court interpreted the Constitution to give the Supreme
>Court final interpretation over the Constitution.
>     Kind of amusing, and very, very scary, when you think about it.
> 
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
>David Veal     Division of Continuing Education Information Services Group
>               University of Tennessee, Knoxville
>               PA146008@utkvm1.utk.edu

I don't find Marbury scary.  What it actually says is "It is emphatically the
province and duty of the judicial department to say what the law is."  The
judicial department, not the Supreme Court.  And when it says "the law," what
it means is (another quote): "The constitution is superior to any ordinary act
of the legislature," and so "the constitution, and not such ordinary act, must
govern the case to which they both apply."  Is it that scary that we should
live by the Constitution above legislation?  Is it that scary that the purpose
of the courts is to interpret the Constitution?  What other reason is there for
the courts?  Why else have a three-branchgovernment with checks and balances?

Marbury pointed out why the constitution is the supreme law of the land:  "That
the people have an original right to establish, for their future govrenment,
such principles as, in their opinion, shall most conduce to their own
happiness, is the basis on which the whole American fabric has been erected. 
The exercise of this original right is a very great exertion; nor can it, nor
ought it, to be frequently repeated.  The principles, therefore, so
established, are deemed fundamental.  And as the authority from which they
proceed is supreme, and can seldom act, they are designed to be permanent. 
This original and supreme will organizes the government, and assigns to
different departments their respective powers.  It may either stop here, or
establish certain limits not to be transcended by those departments."

As we have it now, actually, the courts are in the vest pocket of the executive
branch, thereby overriding the "problems" (for the executive branch) raised by
Marbury.
Xref: sparky or.politics:234 talk.politics.misc:49944 alt.politics.libertarian:632
From: snodgras@lclark.edu (Bil Snodgrass)
Newsgroups: or.politics,talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.libertarian
Subject: Re: Measure 9 in Oregon
Date: 7 Oct 92 14:28:04 GMT
Article-I.D.: lclark.1992Oct7.142804.15188
Distribution: na
Organization: Lewis & Clark College, Portland OR

Not only does it contradict, but doesn't having gays seperated from
the rest of the population also make us a "recongized" class of 
people in the eyes of the Oregon Constitution?  I mean if 
you are going to single out a group of people then you recongize
these people as a "group" of people.
From: frankm@aspen.CNA.TEK.COM (Frank Miller)
Newsgroups: or.politics
Subject: Re: America's jihad
Date: 8 Oct 92 18:34:49 GMT
Article-I.D.: master.3730
Distribution: or
Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Redmond,  OR.

In article <3727@master.CNA.TEK.COM> mikeq@freddy.CNA.TEK.COM (Mike Quigley) writes:
>Okay, okay. Enough is enough already!
>
>Notwithstanding Oregon's attempt at ethnic cleansing (Meas. 9), how
>long is this wacky religious jihad fad gonna last? 
>
>It's time we get back to our roots: smoke a little grass, drop
>a little acid, travel cross-country in a magic bus named `Furthur.'
>
>Throw off all this anal retentiveness and plunk your twanger!
>
>
>Mike
>

Ya know ... Ken Kessey lives in the hills in Southern Oregon 
raising chickens.  Maybe he'd be willing to join up with you
Mike ... 'The Merry Pranksters' could hit the road again!

Jeez, after Measue 9 whats next ... the Inquisition?

Earth-Piglet

--
Frank 'Scruff' Miller      "A Perl script is correct if it is halfway readable
Tek CNA Division            and gets the job done before the boss fires you."
frankm@master.CNA.TEK.COM   -Larry Wall
Newsgroups: or.politics,talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.libertarian
From: bcapps@atlastele.com (Brent Capps)
Subject: Re: Measure 9 in Oregon
Organization: Atlas Telecom Inc.
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 16:02:12 GMT

In article <1079@bug.UUCP> stevef@bug.UUCP (Steven R Fordyce) writes:
>[President and Congress] pledge to support and uphold *the*
>Constitution, not the Supreme Court's interpretation of it.

Go back and reread Mauberry vs. Madison (1803).  The Supreme Court
is the final interpreter of the Constitution and executive and legislative
branches are bound by its decisions.
-- 
Brent Capps                          | 
bcapps@agora.rain.com (gay stuff)    | Hire people with hooks.
bcapps@atlastele.com (telecom stuff) | 
Xref: sparky or.politics:259 talk.politics.misc:51328 alt.politics.libertarian:826
From: stevef@bug.UUCP (Steven R Fordyce)
Newsgroups: or.politics,talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.libertarian
Subject: Re: Measure 9 in Oregon
Summary: The Constitution is everyone's business.
Date: 12 Oct 92 22:49:13 GMT
Reply-To: stevef@bug.UUCP (Steven R Fordyce)
Distribution: na
Organization: Handmade Designs, Salem, OR, USA

In article <1992Oct8.203848.17999@atlastele.com> bcapps@atlastele.com
(Brent Capps) writes:
>There are only 5 people in this country whose opinion matters on whether
>or not Measure 9 is constitutional, and they all sit at the US Supreme Court.
>No one else's opinion matters.  The Constitution *is* what a majority of the
>Supreme Court *says* it is.

I don't mean to pick on Brent here, because a lot of people feel this way,
but this attitude really irks me.  Take a look at the oath of office for
the President and Congress.  They pledge to support and uphold *the*
Constitution, not the Supreme Court's interpretation of it.  State office
holders pledge to uphold both the U.S. Constitution and their state
constitution.  I'm not saying that the courts aren't important or that they
should be ignored, but the executive has a duty to know and understand the
Constitution, and if he (I'm using "he" to mean he or she) believes he is
called on to do something unConstitution by an unConstitutional law, he
doesn't have to wait for the Supreme Court to rule.  He has a duty not to
do it.  And even after the Supreme Court rules, the executive still has a
duty to uphold the Constitution.  He can't do something the Supreme Court
say is unConstitutional, but he isn't so bound if they rule that it is
Constitutional.  There is nothing that says that he can take a higher
standard, a broader view of our Rights.  Just because they say it is
Constitutional, he is not forced to agree, and he still has a duty not to
act unConstitutionally as he understands it.

Likewise, the legislature or Congress has a duty not to propose or pass
unConstitutional laws.  They are oath bound not to do so.  They should not
just pass whatever they like and leave the question of Constitutionality up
to the courts.

In both cases I think the oath of office is largely ignored.  Congress, the
President, and state office holders ignor their responsibilities and leave
the Constitution to the courts.  This is not the way it is supposed to be.
But until we start holding our elected officials accountable, it won't
change.
-- 
orstcs!opac!bug!stevef          I am the NRA              Steven R. Fordyce
uunet!sequent!ether!stevef         . . .  	        Deer are for Dinner
Xref: sparky or.politics:252 talk.politics.misc:50746 alt.politics.libertarian:769
From: bcapps@atlastele.com (Brent Capps)
Newsgroups: or.politics,talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.libertarian
Subject: Re: Measure 9 in Oregon
Date: 8 Oct 92 20:38:48 GMT
Article-I.D.: atlastel.1992Oct8.203848.17999
Distribution: na
Organization: Atlas Telecom Inc.

In article <1992Oct7.181621.4432@sequent.com> gerrit@sequent.com (Gerrit Huizenga) writes:
>The sad part is that the "top lawyer" from the Heritage Foundation (the
>most influential political think tank in the U.S. having a significant role
>in forming domestic and foregin policy during the Reagan Presidency) has
>evaluated the measure and claims that it is self-consistent and does
>not infringe on the U.S. Constitution.

There are only 5 people in this country whose opinion matters on whether
or not Measure 9 is constitutional, and they all sit at the US Supreme Court.
No one else's opinion matters.  The Constitution *is* what a majority of the
Supreme Court *says* it is.

A majority of 5.

Do you feel lucky?  I'm not taking bets.
-- 
Brent Capps                           |
bcapps@agora.rain.com (gay stuff)     | I can view my employer from here
bcapps@atlastele.com (telecom stuff)  |
Xref: sparky or.politics:281 alt.rush-limbaugh:7613
From: plam@ohsu3b2.ohsu.EDU (Glen Plam)
Newsgroups: or.politics
Subject: Re: liberal activists
Date: 2 Oct 92 04:17:40 GMT
Article-I.D.: ohsu.1992Oct2.041740.666
Organization: Oregon Health Sciences University

>Measure 9 is the result of a government that has grown so powerful that it
>can dictate private virtue.  The question of whether it SHOULD dictate is
>considered by many as already decided, in the affirmative;  the only question
>now appears to be WHAT it will dictate.  It is almost humorous, in a cynical
>sort of way, that the weapons created in past decades to promote "correct
>progressive thinking" have been taken up by the opposition.  There is an
>enemy here, and it is not homosexuality or fundamentalism, but instead the
>totalitarian attitude that we have to make a public choice between them.
>
>Voting a resounding NO on Measure 9 is just a first step;  we must follow

I think we should all see what this Measure is.  Do we want a goverment 
telling us what is right or wrong.  We have asked the goverment in the past
to enforce moral codes for us.  This question strikes as the heart of something
we in this great nation have always look away from.  Males have always feared
being homosexual.  This plays into that fear in a big way.  I am hurt in a 
very big way that a group of white christain males are so full of fear about
what they believe in that they need the power of the goverment to enforce
what they believe.  
Xref: sparky or.politics:255 talk.politics.misc:51023 alt.politics.elections:16182
From: robart@agora.rain.com (Robert Barton)
Newsgroups: or.politics,talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.elections
Subject: Re: Measure 9 in Oregon
Date: 10 Oct 92 12:45:44 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Organization

In article <1992Oct6.173515.19852@SSD.intel.com> chrisbro@ssd.intel.com (Chris Browne) writes:
>	Does anyone have a copy of measure 9 that I could read?  I would like to 
>know what the wording is.


  The wording is in the Oregon Voters' Pamphlet, which just came out.
(How can you call over 200 pages a "pamphlet"?)

-- 
  the relevant guy
Xref: sparky or.politics:239 talk.politics.misc:50110 alt.politics.libertarian:675
From: al@qiclab.scn.rain.com (Alan Peterman)
Newsgroups: or.politics,talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.libertarian
Subject: Re: Measure 9 in Oregon
Date: 7 Oct 92 21:37:47 GMT
Article-I.D.: qiclab.1992Oct7.213747.7193
Distribution: na
Organization: SCN Research/Qic Laboratories of Tigard, Oregon.

In article <1992Oct7.181621.4432@sequent.com> gerrit@sequent.com (Gerrit Huizenga) writes:
>nancy@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Nancy Lebovitz) points out the fairly obvious
>self-contradicting justification in the proposed OR ballot measure 9
>for allowing one group of people to arbitrarily discriminate against
>another group without really doing a good job of describing the
>oppressed group.
>
>The sad part is that the "top lawyer" from the Heritage Foundation (the
>most influential political think tank in the U.S. having a significant role
>in forming domestic and foregin policy during the Reagan Presidency) has
>evaluated the measure and claims that it is self-consistent and does
>not infringe on the U.S. Constitution.

Are you sure this lawyer was not from the Heritage Party (or whatever
that last word was) which was the political party the OCA was
trying to create so Mabon could run for US Senator?  That would make
this "top" lawyer's opinion rather self-serving and probably worthless.

-- 
Alan L. Peterman                                 (503)-684-1984 hm & work
                       al@qiclab.scn.rain.com
It's odd how as I get older, the days are longer, but the years are shorter!
Newsgroups: or.politics,talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.libertarian
From: gerrit@sequent.com (Gerrit Huizenga)
Subject: Re: Measure 9 in Oregon
Organization: Sequent Computer Systems, Inc.
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 92 01:57:08 GMT

al@qiclab.scn.rain.com (Alan Peterman) writes:

>In article <1992Oct7.181621.4432@sequent.com> gerrit@sequent.com (Gerrit Huizenga) writes:
>>
>>The sad part is that the "top lawyer" from the Heritage Foundation (the
>>most influential political think tank in the U.S. having a significant role
>>in forming domestic and foregin policy during the Reagan Presidency) has
>>evaluated the measure and claims that it is self-consistent and does
>>not infringe on the U.S. Constitution.

>Are you sure this lawyer was not from the Heritage Party (or whatever
>that last word was) which was the political party the OCA was
>trying to create so Mabon could run for US Senator?  That would make
>this "top" lawyer's opinion rather self-serving and probably worthless.

Nope - this guy was really from the Heritage Foundation.  Perhaps the
additional caveat is that the Heritage Foundation is about as right wing
as right wing gets.  They are also a rather large, well funded group of
solid critical thinkers.  They just happen to put a lot of this smart
energy into things I disagree with.  The Heritage Foundation was founded
by former union buster and former John Birch Society member Joseph Coors.

A really interesting paper on the Far Right is The Oregon Witness, The
Journal of the Coalition for Human Dignity.  They can be reached at

Coalition for Human Dignity
P.O. Box 40344
Portland, OR 97240

It shows a lot of unexpected tight and loose connections between the OCA
and various national organizations (i.e. Pat Robertson's groups and
the David Duke family).

gerrit
From: mdugan@oregon.uoregon.edu (Marianne Dugan)
Newsgroups: or.politics
Subject: Re: America's jihad
Date: 15 Oct 92 17:27:00 GMT
Article-I.D.: oregon.15OCT199210272998
Distribution: or
Organization: University of Oregon
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

>>Ya know ... Ken Kessey lives in the hills in Southern Oregon 
>>raising chickens.  Maybe he'd be willing to join up with you
>>Mike ... 'The Merry Pranksters' could hit the road again!
>>
>>Frank 'Scruff' Miller      "A Perl script is correct if it is halfway readable
>>Tek CNA Division            and gets the job done before the boss fires you."
>>frankm@master.CNA.TEK.COM   -Larry Wall
> 
> i have heard reports that Ken Kesey is not a very nice man.
> 
>tonyd
> 

Actually, whether Ken is a "nice" guy is somewhat irrelevant; his role in
society seems to be to be "interesting."  I live in Eugene (Oregon) and have
been delighted with his performances in front of the Lane County Commissioners'
hearing on whether to allow the Grateful Dead to come play here (answer: yes,
but then Jerry got sick!) and with his bandleader role on a crazy float in the
Eugene Celebration Parade.  He's a prankster, not your buddy.

You should read his collection of stories, "Demon Box," which has one story
(true) about this Prankster wannabe who keeps coming to his door in the middle
of the night and the tragicomic story of how Ken tries to keep his life
semi-private and gently discourage the fun-loving folks who traipse up his
driveway.

Enjoy Halloween!
From: john@data.rain.com (John Mantey)
Newsgroups: or.politics
Subject: Re^2: America's jihad
Date: 9 Oct 92 20:18:15 GMT
Distribution: or
Organization: Microtek DSD, Hillsboro, OR

frankm@aspen.CNA.TEK.COM (Frank Miller) writes:

>In article <3727@master.CNA.TEK.COM> mikeq@freddy.CNA.TEK.COM (Mike Quigley) writes:

>Jeez, after Measue 9 whats next ... the Inquisition?

Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!!

(sorry Monty Python made me do it!  sue them)


-- 
John Mantey    john@data.rain.com                   Microtek International, DSD
               ...uunet!intelhf!percy!data!john     3300 NW 211th Terrace
Those who know what's best for us,                  Hillsboro, Or 97124
Must rise and save us from ourselves. -Rush-        503-645-7333 x321
Newsgroups: or.politics,talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.libertarian
From: jerryg@ssd.intel.com (Jerry Gaiser)
Subject: Re: Measure 9 in Oregon
Organization: Supercomputer Systems Division, Intel Corp.
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 16:55:57 GMT

In article <1992Oct7.132632.1990@genie.slhs.udel.edu> nancy@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Nancy Lebovitz) writes:
>In article <1992Oct6.180704.6214@scic.intel.com> sbradley@scic.intel.com (Seth Bradley) writes:
>>
>>                PROPOSED CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT
>>

Deleted to save bandwidth

>
>Isn't the first section in contradiction with the second and third?
>How can the state be sure it isn't supporting something that it
>can't recognize? How can it discourage something that it can't
>recognize? 
>
>Am I missing some technical use of language, or is the amendment
>just the equivalent of saying "we can have a law allowing us to
>be as nasty as we want without admitting it"?
>

Yep. Kind of scary, uh?

-- 
Jerry Gaiser                         NO on 9
         Usenet: jerryg@ssd.intel.com
        Fidonet: 1:105/380
           PBBS: n7pwf@n7pwf.or.usa.na
Newsgroups: or.politics,talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.libertarian
From: PA146008@utkvm1.utk.edu (David Veal)
Subject: Re: Measure 9 in Oregon
Organization: The University of Tennessee, Knoxville
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1992 03:54:45 GMT

In article <1992Oct15.160212.9894@atlastele.com>
bcapps@atlastele.com (Brent Capps) writes:

>In article <1079@bug.UUCP> stevef@bug.UUCP (Steven R Fordyce) writes:
>>[President and Congress] pledge to support and uphold *the*
>>Constitution, not the Supreme Court's interpretation of it.
>
>Go back and reread Mauberry vs. Madison (1803).  The Supreme Court
>is the final interpreter of the Constitution and executive and legislative
>branches are bound by its decisions.

     The Supreme Court interpreted the Constitution to give the Supreme
Court final interpretation over the Constitution.
     Kind of amusing, and very, very scary, when you think about it.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
David Veal     Division of Continuing Education Information Services Group
               University of Tennessee, Knoxville
               PA146008@utkvm1.utk.edu
From: mikeq@freddy.CNA.TEK.COM (Mike Quigley)
Newsgroups: or.politics
Subject: America's jihad
Date: 8 Oct 92 16:28:05 GMT
Article-I.D.: master.3727
Distribution: or
Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Redmond,  OR.

Okay, okay. Enough is enough already!

Notwithstanding Oregon's attempt at ethnic cleansing (Meas. 9), how
long is this wacky religious jihad fad gonna last? 

After all, a person can take only so much of family values and Ann Murray
videos before you become thoroughly stark-raving bored! Hell, in the end, even
the King of Milk and Cookies, Ricky Nelson, turned into a freebaser!

It's time we get back to our roots: smoke a little grass, drop
a little acid, travel cross-country in a magic bus named `Furthur.'

Throw off all this anal retentiveness and plunk your twanger!


Mike
From: dougc@htbawd.rain.com (Doug Carter)
Newsgroups: or.politics
Subject: Re: liberal activists
Date: 9 Oct 92 01:10:58 GMT
Article-I.D.: neon.BvtxyC.AGC
Organization: Merwin Software Services, Inc.

In article <1992Oct5.224636.13307@qiclab.scn.rain.com> drazil@qiclab.scn.rain.com (Devin Ben-Hur) writes:
>In article <BvJ1qB.5nM@neon.rain.com> dougc@htbawd.rain.com (Doug Carter) writes:
>>And you'd call the populace outside of Portland and Eugene a majority?
>>
>>Maybe they represent the *majority* of land... :-)
>
>Sorry, Dougie, but you need some facts.  The population of OR is about
>three million.  Portland accounts for about 1/2 million, Eugene is what,
>about 100-200K?  The rest of OR is the majority, and you better start
>getting damn worried about the prospects of Abomination 9 being passed
>this November.

Well, if it's facts your interested in, the Oregon state population is
~2.8 million and Portland (aka Portland Metropolitian Area) is ~1.5
million.

However, this fact is not the issue here. The issue, I'm sure you'll
agree, is that Measure 9 must be defeated. My real worry is the general
apathy to this measure. I'm sure there are plently of people who think 
Measure 9 is wrong, but won't even bother voting because it doesn't
directly effect them. 

Doug.

Nerds against Nine! It could have been us!