From: craig@cattnts (Craig Campbell)
Newsgroups: can.general,can.politics,soc.culture.canada
Subject: Re: When do we stop being outsiders? (WAS Re: The Journal on ...)
Date: 1 Apr 92 17:32:45 GMT
Organization: AT&T / NCR Canada Ltd., Toronto, Canada

In article <9643@s3.ireq.hydro.qc.ca> beaurega@ireq.hydro.qc.ca (Denis Beauregard) writes:
>In article <29D5E035.469B@telly.on.ca>
>   Evan Leibovitch (evan@telly.on.ca / uunet!utzoo!telly!evan)

>quoted article <1992Mar27.153519.4099@watserv1.waterloo.edu>
>     by        heckman@kingcong.UWaterloo.ca (Gerald Heckman)

>1800's : map of Quebec is done with English names throughout all
>the area that were not yet settled under the French regime.
>The reason why Eastern Townships and Outaouais are full of English-named
>towns.

>1840 : using Durham report as a base, a new union.  Unilingual English
>from 1840 to 1848.

>1885 : Murder of Louis Riel by Canadian government.

>about 1890 : Francos have no right in Manitoba.  No school, no service.

>1917 : Ontario Rule XVII : no school in French

I'm sorry, but I have some trouble worrying or feeling guilty about things
that happened when my grandparents were young (May they rest in piece) or
before they were born.  It is ancient history.  Interesting, perhaps, but 
of little relevance.

>1950's : censuses of Quebec are microfilmed.  Location names are only
>documented in English.

What, a name is not a name?  What is the english name for Quebec city?
If every location was actually given a name both in french and english, then
this is government sillyness at a real high!!  (I have to admit, I would be
annoyed if the government tried to change my name.)

>1955's : there are phone books of some Quebec area only in English.

Well, I suppose that could be annoying.  I've never actually tried to read
anything but names and numbers from phone books, and again, I'd hope both
names and numbers are outside the boundaries of a language.

>1975 : I get no right to see my data in French in Federal Electoral list.

Is there more data there than your name and address?  (seriously, that's all
I can recall seeing.  What else does the government know about me?)

>Until 1976 and law 101 : a French-speaking could not get higher than
>a subaltern job in many English-directed companies in Quebec

"could not get higher"?  That is an interesting phrase.  Why could a "French-
speaking" [person] not get higher?  Inability to communicate with the parrent
company?  Board of directors?  Or was it a vicious nasty plot? :-)

It has been my observation that companies are most interested in the bottom
line ($$$$), and that there is a deafening indeference to other matters
(for example culture).  If you can do the job, then generally, you have as
likely a chance as anyone else.

>1982 : constitution rapatriment without the approval of Quebec

And you feel I had a say in it?!  I had no problem with the Queen.
Our governments are way out of control, with screwed up priorities, but
that is a completely different topic.

In their (half hearted at best) defense, the government acted within the
rules and boundaries of the day.  Perhaps one or more of the players just
didn't like the rules?  (We all have to play within the rule, even when we
don't like them.)

>1992 : the trials judged in French are still not used in canadian
>jurisprudence.

I had not heard (or thought about) that.  I have also heard (unconfirmed
rumor at best) that some of the courts in Quebec use "Napoleonic Law"
(Correct term?) meaning that the accused must prove their innocence.  
Is this true, or just utter rubbish?

>1992 : Canadian opinion is still against any special power for Quebec.

Canadian opinion (as far as I can see it) is against special power for anyone!
We are all equal.  Why should any one specific group be given special power
which is denied to all the other groups?

>1992 : some anglo ministers in Quebec want elimination of the part of 
>Law 101 forcing English-directed companies to stop racism against
>Francophones (like forcing a company to have francophones on director
>seats).  Maybe it is better for economy that the French-Canadian
>never get a director position?

If this law results in reverse racism, then it is racism
none the less.  Why should an inferior cantidate be given a job I am more
qualified for just because the inferior cantidate is [white|black|english|
french|catholic|jewish|protestant|male|female|short|tall|fat|slim|etc]?

>Actually, racism is more directed against French-speaking than against
>Anglo-Canada.

I had no idea it was a balance type thing.  I thought the goal was no racism,
not equal amounts.

>Francos are some 5-6 millions in a see of 250 millions
>of English-speaking and they can challenge the 250 millions language!
>Are we that powerful?

Huh?  As an english speaking canadian, I have no fear of anyone challenging
my language.  Other languages exist, and I am impacted by them, but not
frightened, hurt, or offended.

I don't believe that anyone wishes to erradicate the french language or
culture.  I do suspect that some groups are fostering that fear for their
own personal gains.  

Is the fear of this so great in Quebec, that its citizens must do exactly
what they accuse their enemies(?) of doing, just to survive.
"In our struggle, we became like that which we despised."
Are equality, freedom, and liberty to be overridden by cultural fear?

Why don't other cultures in canada also have this fear.  I have some personal
experience with German, Italian, and some Oriental cultures and have never
detected any fear of their culture dieing.

>On another hand, I feel the Anglo-Quebecois are afraid of a revenge.
>They know we were so often victim of injustice that they are
>afraid we act like they would.  If we were preparing a revenge,
>why is the Durham township still existing on Quebec map?  It was
>so easy to rename it.

Wow, people are really afraid of their neighbors in Quebec, just because
of the language they speak?  Tell them to seek professional help.

>Almost no calendar published by an Anglo-Canadian company say that 
>June 24 is Quebec National Day.  This includes many calendars 
>distributed inside Quebec.

Well, for one Quebec is not a nation.  For another, the calendar's already
have John the Baptist (St. Jean de Baptiste Day (Quebec) ) on the calendar.
(My office calendar has the French spelling.)

>Junk mail from Toronto is addressed with PQ as Quebec abbreviation
>while Quebec based companies uses QC.  By no mean will the English
>Canada (notwithstanding how it is defined) accept that even on
>mailing address Quebec has other right that being a province.  That is,
>it won't remove the P because it means Province and if we remove it,
>Quebec will believe it has the right to secede.

I wouldn't base much of an argument on junk mail addressing (I'd just like
to figure out how to rid myself of the stuff).  I thought the abreviation
for Quebec was Que. as the one for Ontario is Ont, etc.  I have never seen
a short form that started with a P to indicate province.  Wierd.

I think you read too much into this.  Removing a P (which I never knew existed)
will allow Quebec to believe it has the right to secede?  Quite a stretch
of logic and reason.

>Federal forbids any publishing of documents proving that Quebec
>secession can be done economically.  Last year, C.D.Howe institute
>got a blame for such a document.

Perhaps because it can't be done economically.  I don't know.  But if Quebec
did leave, they could definitely take their share of the national debt with
them.

>Recently, a Ottawa university published a work demonstrating that 
>Native were better treated in Quebec than in TROC.  Why the impression
>of opposite shown by canadian press?

Perhaps there were other studdies, done by other reputable organizations
concluding the opposite.  It is not uncommon for various studies to 
contradict each other.  Especially about things that are subjective, such as
"How well you are treated".

>-- 
>Denis Beauregard        beaurega@ireq.hydro.qc.ca
>Mes opinions sont personnelles, pas celles de mon employeur.
>My opinions are mine, not those of my employer.
>Promoting use of QC as logical abbreviation for Quebec 
(I still like Que. :-))

Is it possible, that English Canada is being used as a scapegoat for all
the woes in Quebec?  Nothing, including Canada is perfect.  

I have no support for national multilingualism.  Provide services in 
languages appropriate to the area/region.  (You know, if there is a demand,
then make a supply.  Not this supply whether there is a demand or not.)
This applies to english as well.  If there is no english presence, then 
why waste money by doing stuff in english?

What ever happened to people just being nice to each other?  You know
"neighbourly, friendly, tolerant"?  Perhaps it was just an urban legend.
Too bad.  Sigh...


-- 
Craig Campbell		|	These opinions are entirely the result of a 
Systems Engineer	|	small butterfly crashing into the far side
NCR Canada,		|	of the planet.  Chaos Rules.
an AT&T Company		|	I speak for no one, except, possibly, myself.
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