HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: dlb5404@tamsun.tamu.edu (Daryl Biberdorf)
Newsgroups: tx.politics
Subject: Re: fetus vs. baby
Date: 31 Jul 92 12:16:27 GMT
Distribution: tx
Organization: Texas A&M University, College Station

In article <1992Jul30.215217.1421@technology.com> richard@technology.com (Richard Murphy) writes:
>Bans are always easy to push, because they look like you are doing something
>while the problem just changes form. I think the anti-abortion people could
>have cut the number of abortions drastically if they had just put their
>time into preventing unwanted pregnancies......

The last sentence shows a surprising level of ignorance about exactly
*what* steps the pro-life crowd is taking towards the goal of reducing
unplanned pregnancies.  Locally (Bryan-College Station area), to my knowledge
there is one pro-life pregnancy counseling center (on par, number-wise, 
with the one Planned Parenthood clinic that does not perform
abortions).  This counseling center provides counseling ranging from
disease counseling, chastity counseling programs, second virginity programs,
to regular pregnancy counseling.  These services are open to both
women *and* men.

Yes, they're geared toward showing people *why* it's better to remain
celibate until you're really ready to have children.  But it
is certainly an effort to curtail unplanned pregnancies.  Oh, I'm
sorry, you wanted us to be handing out condoms to sixth graders.

In addition the charter for an organization to run a maternity home here
has been signed, and fund raising is well underway.  (How many maternity
homes does Planned Parenthood run?  Every one I've seen is run by
pro-life groups, but maybe there are some that aren't.  Please
enlighten me.) 

Also, one of the most ardent pro-lifers I know is also a foster parent.
Right now they have one natural child plus the foster child.  The foster
child is black.  These parents are also considering adopting her (this
is not a trivial decision.  There are lots of repercussions to mixed-
race adoptions, and there is no way out of some of them).

Again these are just for starters.  Feel free to look around in your
own community.  You might be surprised.

Daryl
-- 
Daryl Biberdorf  N5GJM    dlb5404@rigel.tamu.edu  or  dlb5404@tamsun.tamu.edu
        "You're not messy.  You're organizationally impaired."
                _Real_Life_Adventures_, July 3, 1992 
Newsgroups: tx.politics
From: john@johniac.austin.ibm.com (John Iacoletti)
Subject: Re: separation of church and state
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 92 16:38:03 GMT
Distribution: tx
Reply-To: johniac@hwperform.austin.ibm.com (John Iacoletti)
Organization: IBM Advanced Workstation Division, Austin, TX

In article <1992Jul20.153509.10014@awdprime.austin.ibm.com>, huggins@dss1.austin.ibm.com (Jim Huggins         (8-8305)) writes:
|> For example, traditional
|> teachings on sex outside of marriage talk of the sexual act as "two people
|> becoming one" -- and the subsequent pain when that bond of intimacy is
|> broken haphazardly.  

The same pain can be experienced inside a marriage as well.  Marriage
is primarily a legal and social contract.  It doesn't guarantee that
people will be any more devoted to each other.  And sex, per se,
doesn't require any particular level of devotion anyway.  It's just
that some people like it that way.

|> I don't want this to digress into a discussion of premarital sex --
|> my point is that there are teachings on values in the Bible that 
|> have more of an explanation than "'cuz God said so", and could be taught
|> without problems.

The problem I have with teaching values is not that some values are
mentioned in the Christian bible, but that values are personal
preferences and there are no absolutes to be taught.  So what you end
up doing is dictating somebody's personal preferences to people who
may feel otherwise.  I don't see the value in doing so.

|> I find it a little ironic
|> that while the US seems to be striving for a value-less education,
|> the former "evil empire" is actively striving to teach "Christian"
|> values in its schools.

Whatever.  We don't have a monopoly on religious loons in the United
States.  Maybe they think if they please George Bush, he'll send
more money.

|> But this is where the catch-22 arises.  What should we teach about sex
|> in the public schools?  Religious fundamentalists will assert that
|> all sex outside of monogamous heterosexual marriage is wrong.  
|> Religious progressives will assert that sexual activity is healthy
|> and that all consensual, protected activities should be encouraged.
|> How do you resolve these two opposing viewpoints?  After all, each has
|> their own religious believes which, as you state, should not be 
|> taught against ... but there's no middle ground.

Sure there is.  You can teach about sex without making value
judgements about when to have sex or who to have sex with.  Each
person can interpret the information within his own framework of
values and lifestyle.  If a parent feels that even saying the word
"sex" is verboten, and prefers that his child learn about sex from his
buddies on the street, then he can still opt out of the class. 

-- 
John Iacoletti    IBM AWD Austin    Internet: johniac@hwperform.austin.ibm.com
        My opinions do not reflect the views of the IBM Corporation
     "Faith:  not *wanting* to know what is true." - Friedrich Nietzsche
From: jfh@rpp386.lonestar.org (John F. Haugh II)
Newsgroups: tx.politics
Subject: Re: Pro-Choice
Date: 31 Jul 92 12:42:59 GMT
Reply-To: jfh@rpp386.cactus.org (John F. Haugh II)
Distribution: tx
Organization: River Parishes Programming, Austin, Republic of Texas

In article <1992Jul29.202235.21414@oakhill.sps.mot.com> jcj6@ace3.sps.mot.com (james berry) writes:
>As far as King George is concerned,  This may be the straw that broke the
>camel's back.  It looks as if he will have lots of time to go home to Maine
>and fish after November.  

Actually not - the majority of Americans support abortion ONLY if the life
of the mother is at risk, or the pregnancy is the result of rape or incest.

The polling results are usually 90% against abortion on demand (that is,
90% opposed to the "unrestricted right to abortion") and 90% in favor of
abortion for rape, incest, or risk to life.  The other good news is that
the majority of pro-abortion people don't vote single issue.  (And neither
do the majority of pro-life people, either.)
-- 
John F. Haugh II                   | Life's Little Instruction Book:
Ma Bell: (512) 251-2151            | "#138.  Learn Spanish.  In a few years,
UUCP: ...!cs.utexas.edu!rpp386!jfh |  more than 35% of all Americans will speak
Domain: jfh@rpp386.cactus.org      |  it as their first language."
Newsgroups: tx.politics
From: john@johniac.austin.ibm.com (John Iacoletti)
Subject: Re: AIDS info to kids? (was Re: separation of church and state)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 92 15:40:24 GMT
Distribution: tx
Reply-To: johniac@hwperform.austin.ibm.com (John Iacoletti)
Organization: IBM Advanced Workstation Division, Austin, TX

In article <1992Jul22.204959.3476@NeoSoft.com>, rocky@NeoSoft.com (Joe Mullally) writes:
|> 	There's nothing wrong with driving cars, or drinking alcohol,
|> either. There _is_ a problem when any of these is performed by folks
|> w/o properly understanding the mechanics, purpose, and possible
|> consequences of the act(s). 

You tell me:  What is the "purpose" of sex?

|> This goes for adults, too, but we can say
|> with relative accuracy that most kids don't understand. 

If they can understand the possible consequences of driving a car,
they can also understand the consequences of having sex.  It's not
that hard.

|> >     "Faith:  not *wanting* to know what is true." - Friedrich Nietzsche
|> 
|> 	Naive at best, ignorant at worst.

Please explain your reasoning behind this assessment of the Nietzsche
quote.

-- 
John Iacoletti    IBM AWD Austin    Internet: johniac@hwperform.austin.ibm.com
        My opinions do not reflect the views of the IBM Corporation
     "Faith:  not *wanting* to know what is true." - Friedrich Nietzsche
Newsgroups: tx.politics
From: john@johniac.austin.ibm.com (John Iacoletti)
Subject: Re: AIDS info to kids? (was Re: separation of church and state)
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 92 15:47:05 GMT
Distribution: tx
Reply-To: johniac@hwperform.austin.ibm.com (John Iacoletti)
Organization: IBM Advanced Workstation Division, Austin, TX

In article <1992Jul21.185708.13293@NeoSoft.com>, rocky@NeoSoft.com (Joe Mullally) writes:
|> I don't think our public
|> school system has the right to override parental concerns such as yours,
|> even when overriding would benefit the majority of kids (IMO).

The answer to this is to allow parents to opt their kids out of sex
education.  And that is in fact what most school systems do.  This
way, you don't deprive "the many" of useful information in order to
placate the hung-up few.

|> Find out why kids make the choice to have sex, and try to change
|> those factors that lead to the act

Why?  There's nothing wrong with having sex.

-- 
John Iacoletti    IBM AWD Austin    Internet: johniac@hwperform.austin.ibm.com
        My opinions do not reflect the views of the IBM Corporation
     "Faith:  not *wanting* to know what is true." - Friedrich Nietzsche
From: jfh@rpp386.lonestar.org (John F. Haugh II)
Newsgroups: tx.politics
Subject: Re: HR 4983
Date: 31 Jul 92 12:43:55 GMT
Reply-To: jfh@rpp386.cactus.org (John F. Haugh II)
Distribution: tx
Organization: River Parishes Programming, Austin, Republic of Texas

In article <1992Jul29.224659.23393@watson.ibm.com> johniac@hwperform.austin.ibm.com (John Iacoletti) writes:
>          3: something that resembles a biological parasite in
>             dependence on something else for existence or support
>             without making a useful or adequate return.

3) sounds like a good definition for any child below 18.  You will be
killing your kids sometime soon, no?
-- 
John F. Haugh II                   | Life's Little Instruction Book:
Ma Bell: (512) 251-2151            | "#138.  Learn Spanish.  In a few years,
UUCP: ...!cs.utexas.edu!rpp386!jfh |  more than 35% of all Americans will speak
Domain: jfh@rpp386.cactus.org      |  it as their first language."
From: jfh@rpp386.lonestar.org (John F. Haugh II)
Newsgroups: tx.politics
Subject: Re: HR 4983
Date: 21 Jul 92 16:33:35 GMT
Reply-To: jfh@rpp386.cactus.org (John F. Haugh II)
Distribution: tx
Organization: River Parishes Programming, Austin, Republic of Texas

In article <6975@lib.tmc.edu> jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard) writes:
>Because if I can't see it, it is still biologically dependent on th host
>mother, and therefore not a separate individual.

If the plants and animals that you are biologically dependent on for
your continued survival decide that you must die, you will go quietly?

I hear the voice of a cow protesting your parasitical dependence on
its relations for your food ...
-- 
John F. Haugh II                   | Vida en La Republica de Tejas:
Ma Bell: (512) 251-2151            |  A Tejana woman, after spending the rent
UUCP: ...!cs.utexas.edu!rpp386!jfh |  money on the Tejas Lottery - "I can't go
Domain: jfh@rpp386.cactus.org      |  home, my husband will beat me up."
Newsgroups: tx.politics
From: john@johniac.austin.ibm.com (John Iacoletti)
Subject: Re: HR 4983
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 92 16:01:35 GMT
Distribution: tx
Reply-To: johniac@hwperform.austin.ibm.com (John Iacoletti)
Organization: IBM Advanced Workstation Division, Austin, TX

In article <1992Jul21.225849.20261@twisto.eng.hou.compaq.com>, darylb@sword.eng.hou.compaq.com (Daryl Biberdorf) writes:
|> Not really.  We usually define clinical death as being the absence of
|> heartbeat or brainwaves (or both), so doesn't it make sense to define
|> life (in humans) as the presence of both of these functions?

That presumes that a heartbeat or brainwaves were once present and
then stopped.  I don't think it makes sense to consider a fetus that
hasn't started a heartbeat or brain activity yet to be "dead".  It's
obviously a living organism.

-- 
John Iacoletti    IBM AWD Austin    Internet: johniac@hwperform.austin.ibm.com
        My opinions do not reflect the views of the IBM Corporation
     "Faith:  not *wanting* to know what is true." - Friedrich Nietzsche
From: curt@aixwiz.austin.ibm.com (Curt Finch/131072)
Newsgroups: tx.politics
Subject: "DON'T REMEDIATE, ACCELERATE"
Date: 29 Jul 92 16:58:44 GMT
Reply-To: curt@aixwiz.austin.ibm.com (Curt Finch/131072)
Distribution: tx
Organization: IBM AWD, Austin, TX


*3   L.A.'S 99TH STREET SCHOOL:  "DON'T REMEDIATE, ACCELERATE"
     The 99th Street School in Watts has adopted the "accelerated
school" approach to learning, where high standards have replaced
remedial curricula to boost student performance (Hilary Stout,
W.S. JOURNAL).  Their motto:  "Don't remediate.  Accelerate."
     Henry Levin, a professor of education and economics at
Stanford U, began accelerated school programs in 1986 under the
premise that remedial classes for low-achievers are "ineffective,
even damaging their educational progress," and that "all children
can learn well" if challenged.  His acceleration technique is now
operative in 150 schools in 17 states, with the number doubling
to 300 for the next school year.
     Sixth-grade students at the 99th Street School are taught
biology from a 10th grade text, read and perform the Rossini
opera "Barber of Seville" and read Shakespeare.  Children in
other classes get their spelling words from poetry, not
workbooks.  Others learn about the Constitution and the American
legal system.
     According to the JOURNAL, standards are set high with the
hope that children will rise to meet them.  A theory supporting
the program is "if fifth-graders are performing at third grade
level, don't give them third-grade work; they'll never catch up,"
writes the JOURNAL.
     Levin believes his method takes six years to be fully
effective, the JOURNAL writes.  One S.F. school went from ranking
65th out of 69 city schools to ranking 23rd after five years
following the program.  The 99th Street School has also seen
marked gains in its early stages:  Average reading scores for the
CA Test of Basic Skills rose from the 15.9th percentile in 1990
to the 23.4th percentile in 1991; math scores jumped from the to
the 34th percentile from the 22nd.
     Fourth-grade teacher William Sullivan noted the difference:
"The enthusiasm of the kids has picked up a lot." (7/30)
     For more information, contact Beth Keller, Stanford
University at (415) 725-3095.



curt@aixwiz.austin.ibm.com (Curt L. Finch) | AIX NFS/NIS Field Quality 
My views are unrelated to those of IBM     |       Austin, TX
     Argue for your limitations, and sure enough, they're yours.
Newsgroups: tx.politics
From: mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539)
Subject: Re: HR 4983
Organization: Texas Instruments, Inc
Distribution: tx
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1992 20:38:06 GMT

In article <21164@rpp386.lonestar.org> jfh@rpp386.cactus.org (John F. Haugh II) writes:
>In article <6943@lib.tmc.edu> jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard) writes:
>>In article <21154@rpp386.lonestar.org> jfh@rpp386.cactus.org (John F. Haugh II) writes:
>>>Choice means being aware that a child can be given to two loving
>>>parents, often with all medical and legal expenses paid.
>>
>>...and being able to choose not to do that, as well - either by keeping the
>>child, or choosing not to enslave herself for 9 months.
>
>When does the child get to make a choice?

When it turns 18, apparently.  Until that time, it will attend the
school its parents want, do the things its parents want, not do the
things its parents don't want.  Or so seems to be the position of some
here, judging by what they've said here.

>
>Oh.  The child gets no choice.  How does this differ from infanticide
>which, like abortion, was also legal in this country at the time of its
>founding?

Things without brainwaves probably can't really be considered a
'child'.  And there's your difference.  Now, if you're talking LATE
abortion, there is more justification required.

-- 
"Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live
 in the real world."   -- Mary Shafer, NASA Ames Dryden
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred.McCall@dseg.ti.com - I don't speak for others and they don't speak for me.
Newsgroups: tx.politics
From: john@johniac.austin.ibm.com (John Iacoletti)
Subject: Re: separation of church and state
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 92 21:26:15 GMT
Distribution: tx
Reply-To: johniac@hwperform.austin.ibm.com (John Iacoletti)
Organization: IBM Advanced Workstation Division, Austin, TX

In article <1992Jul24.132832.16541@oakhill.sps.mot.com>, carder@oakhill.sps.mot.com (Darrell Carder) writes:

|> One other simple moral value that seems to be missing today is Respect.
|> Respect of teacher.
|> Respect of parents.
|> Respect of the Police. (It's more like keep low so he doesn't see me, not me I wasn't speeding :)
|> Respect of others property.
|> Respect of the other person regardless of sex, race, ability.

Respect must be earned.  If you treat people with respect, they are
likely to treat you with respect in return.  Respect by mandate
doesn't work.

-- 
John Iacoletti    IBM AWD Austin    Internet: johniac@hwperform.austin.ibm.com
        My opinions do not reflect the views of the IBM Corporation
     "Faith:  not *wanting* to know what is true." - Friedrich Nietzsche
From: gordon@sneaky.lonestar.org (Gordon Burditt)
Newsgroups: tx.politics
Subject: Re: separation of church and state
Date: 21 Jul 92 04:36:40 GMT
Distribution: tx
Organization: Gordon Burditt

>|> This is nonsense, Jay.  What we are objecting to isn't the absense of
>|> "Christian values" but of ANY values.  Christian values would be a nice
>|> goal, but frankly students aren't even taught the simplest moral values.
>
>OK, specifically:  What simple moral values would you like taught that
>aren't currently being taught?  A list please.

How about all of the values in the State and Federal criminal codes?
(You don't have to go into great detail about things like distinctions
between 2nd and 3rd degree murder, nor make it sound like a catalog
of "neat things to do").

Maybe there is some teaching (in school) of "Thou shalt not kill (in
school)" but it's not sinking in, because students, teachers, and
administrators getting shot or knifed to death in school isn't that 
uncommon.

To that we can add some values that apply to the time spent in school
(these are probably taught but not enough):

No cheating on tests.  (Teachers get to set the rules for what is acceptable 
	and what is cheating on a given test, e.g. open-book vs. closed-book)
No weapons in school.  (Someone has to define "weapon" but guns, bombs,
	and certain kinds of knives qualify.)
No cutting class.
Wait your turn to speak in class.
No smoking, drinking, or taking drugs (except by doctor's prescription)
	in school.
No fighting in school (classes in boxing, wrestling, etc. being an
	exception).
Learn to get along with people of different sexes, religions, races, gang
	affiliation, sexual orientation, and ethnic backgrounds in school.  
	These differences are not an exception to the "no fighting" rule.
	You don't have to approve of them or their attributes, but you
	do have to get along peacably.
No sex in school.
No abortions in school.

					Gordon L. Burditt
					sneaky.lonestar.org!gordon
From: jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard)
Newsgroups: tx.politics
Subject: Re: separation of church and state
Date: 30 Jul 92 16:09:44 GMT
Distribution: tx
Organization: UT Health Science Center Houston

In article <1992Jul30.150536.15076@watson.ibm.com> johniac@hwperform.austin.ibm.com (John Iacoletti) writes:
>In article <1992Jul30.091451.16073@cactus.org>, cheselka@cactus.org (Michael R. M. Cheselka) writes:
>|> Respect is like credit, given out in modest amounts, to see if it is well
>|> placed.  Don't you think everyone is due some respect, until you see
>|> otherwise?
>Sure, but I hear people saying that we should respect a teacher just
>because he is the teacher, or that we should respect a police officer
>just because she is a police officer.  You're not entitled to respect 
>by virtue of your job description.

Sorry, but I must (respectfully :-) disagree.
I find Michael's model of respect as an account, with debits and credits, to
be a useful one. Teachers, police officers, and other authority figures get an
initial positive balance; they can either add to it or withdraw from it by
their actions. If the account goes negative, then guess what: I've lost any
respect for them.

You have to start somewhere. I find that dealing with folks I don't know goes
better if I show them some respect first.
-- 
Jay Maynard, EMT-P, K5ZC, PP-ASEL | Never ascribe to malice that which can
jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu      | adequately be explained by a .sig virus.
"Right now, because of you, this city is being overrun by baboons." "Don't
 you think that's the responsibility of the voters?" -- _Naked Gun 2-1/2_
From: mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539)
Newsgroups: tx.politics
Subject: Re: HR 4983
Date: 22 Jul 92 20:02:29 GMT
Distribution: tx
Organization: Texas Instruments, Inc

In article <21183@rpp386.lonestar.org> jfh@rpp386.cactus.org (John F. Haugh II) writes:
>
>Good.  Then you agree exactly with my position on abortion.  Any child
>with a heartbeat and/or brainwaves may not be killed without due process.
>That would put the upper limit on legal abortion at 5 to 8 weeks
>gestational age.

Well, not quite.  I don't really care if it has a heartbeat or not.  I
think it does need to have recognizably human brainwaves, though, to
be considered as a 'discrete' human being.  I think your numbers are
just a bit early to claim brainwaves, but if you like I can check with
someone who knows for sure.  

>
>I suspect you'd find far more support for this position than either of the
>"abortion on demand" or "no abortions ever" positions.

Probably so, but this issue winds up getting treated like gun control
by a lot of people.  ANY compromise is 'the thin edge of the wedge'.
Give any ground, and people won't stop until they have it all.

-- 
"Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live
 in the real world."   -- Mary Shafer, NASA Ames Dryden
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred.McCall@dseg.ti.com - I don't speak for others and they don't speak for me.