HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: amigan@cup.portal.com (Mike - Medwid)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: ACoA Work Review
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 92 21:08:02 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world

I feel confused.  I had my yearly review today at work.  It went very well.
I received their highest rating.  Yet when I left the review this afternoon
I acted as if I'd been shot down and berated or something.  I didn't feel
happy or a sense of pride in accomplishment..just vaguely sad and a little
numb.  This happens every year.  I've been home now a few hours and I
finally figured out what was going on for me.

Something about the review process feels traumatic.  Perhaps it's being
judged?

I am an ACoA and in my home there was no justice.  One day a certain
behavior would bring a firestorm of anger..and the next day it would barely
get a yawn.  Despite any evidence to the contrary..I view all evaluation as
whimsical, arbitrary and ultimately unfair.  Logically I know this not to be
so black and white..yet in my feeling, core beliefs, this is still how I see
it.  I see a bully and a tirant in a drunken stupor judging me based on
whatever the bottle is saying to him at the moment.  I see that no matter
what I say or do in my defense..it matters not.  There is but one voice that
matters..and that is the loud and threatening voice of the alcoholic.
Better to shut up, lay low..don't risk the wrath of dad.  It is a kangaroo
court, a concentration camp, a klan meeting.  Oh..this is a family..deeply
affected by alcohol.  

-Mike
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: dhawk@netcom.com (David Hawkins)
Subject: Re: "We are not allied with any sect or denomination" - Really?
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 15:43:35 GMT

With regards to the Lord's Prayer: that's up to each group. Some
groups use it, some don't.  In my area, here in California, it's
possible to find groups that don't use it and just attend those, if
that's my inclination.

In other words, it's not a mandate from AA World Services that causes
come groups to use that prayer -- it's the members of those groups.
They can change their minds if they wish.  

later, david
--
David Hawkins    dhawk@netcom.com  
"The chain which can be yanked is not the eternal chain." 
             -- Gordon Fitch
From: bruce.baer@factory.com (Bruce Baer) 
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Re: Step Twelve
Date: 17 Dec 92 01:30:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Invention Factory's BBS - New York City, NY - 212-274-8298v.32bis
Reply-To: bruce.baer@factory.com (Bruce Baer) 

JW>>12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps,
JW>>    we tried to carry this message to alcoholics,
JW>>    and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

JW>>Looks pretty straightforward to me.  ;-)

JW>Is pretty straightforward, but lately I've been becoming concerned about
JW>the difference between "carrying the message" and "shoving the message
JW>down people's throats."

Jerry,
     (IMHO) anyone who attemps to shove the message down someones throat
has somehow missed the "straight-forward-ness" of the step.

It states quite clearly: Having had a spiritual awakening as a result
                         of these steps
****As I understand it "These steps" mean steps 1-11, this implies
one has a clear understanding of alcoholism, the disease concept along
with it's primary symptoms and etc. One has worked the first 11 steps
over a considerable period of time.

**** Then there is a comma (,) to seperate the next part from the first:
 ,we tried to carry this message to alcoholics
***** The word "tried" is quite clear to all that comprehend the
english language and are sane. It means in this context to make an
attempt or make an effort. Forceing, cramming or shoving is nowhere
implied.
**** Then there is another comma (,) which brings us to the last but
hardly least important part:
 , and to practice these principles in all our affairs.
**** These principles ***** Honesty? The golden Rule? <G>
The list is endless here. Most of these principles have some what
to do with decency, respect, consideration, tolerance, wisdom, mercy,
faith and etc ad on infinitum. Things having to do with good civel,
moral, ethical and spiritual codes of conduct.
***Somehow forceing and shoving and cramming don't seem to fit this
picture. I stronly ""SUGGEST"" that this person has not an inkling
as to the first 11 steps and should be sent back for re-treading
so to speak. But, I seriously doubt this will do much good. This person
appears from your description to be smack in the middle of Self Will
Run Riot. The probable out-come of this is he or she will be soundly
trashed either physically or verbally via somebody else in the middle
of MY WILL BE DONE.  The rightous bear a heavy burden sometimes.

Not to change the topic - BUUUUUT, The end o this month am my
anniversary, 8 years clean & dry. HORRAY for me.  YEAH!!!

Also: Seasons greetings to all, no matter what flavor you be.
                                                         BAB

Do your friend a BIG, BIG favor, get him a spanish speaking sponsor
with time who works the steps, and - get him to attend some spanish
speaking meetings.
---
 . SLMR 2.1a . aaaoooggghhh......aaoogghhh......DIVE!  DIVE!
                                                                                                          
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: an3203@anon.penet.fi (Andrew)
Subject: More on "relationships"
X-Anonymously-To: alt.recovery
Organization: Anonymous contact service
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 10:10:11 GMT


We've had a bit of back and forth discussion about relationships
and getting into them "early" in sobriety and whatnot.

I just thought I would interject my two cents... or actually that
of the "Big Book."  Check out pages 68 - 70.  You'll find the
following there (emphasis is mine):

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From: weiss@leopard.cs.uidaho.edu (Phil Weiss)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: What!??!?  I'm not finished?!
Date: 15 Dec 1992 02:29:33 -0600
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

The twelfth step (yeppers, we're in December...) states: "Having
had a spiritual awakening as the result of the steps, we tried
to carry this message to alcoholics and to practice these principles
in all our affairs."

The text of the chapter describing how to do this step starts
off "Practical experience shows that nothing will so much insure
immunity from drinking as instensive work with other alcohlics."

That is a promise.

So I've got my spiritual experience in the bag.  I'm done, right?

Wrong.  Now I get to apply these principles for the rest of my
life.  Well, what does that mean?

It means that I must take those principles which I have been
talking about in meetings for a while, and actually do them.

Here are some of the principles I learned (this is by no means
an exhaustive list):

>From the "Doctor's Opinion": "You may rely absolutely on anything
they say about themselves."  So now I get to strive to do what I
say I am going to do.  No more "I'll pick you up at 7" and then
decide I would rather watch Murphy Brown.

>From "There is a solution": "Most of sense that real tolerance of
other people's shortcoming and viewpoints and a respect for their
opinions are attitudes which make us more useful to others."
I now listen when my sister goes off on one of her "Clinton's
anti-military" tirades.  I take the time to explain to a freshman
why you can't just flip workstation's off and on like a PC.

>From "How it works": "We avoid retaliation or argument." My dishes
get cleaned now.  Last year they piled up because I decided that
Mell wasn't doing his share, and he had decided that I wasn't
doing my share.  So we fought each other and left the dishes
uncleaned, hoping that the other person would break first.

>From "How it works": "Putting out of our minds the wrongs others
had done, we resolutely looked for our own mistakes."  Now I get
to admit that I was the one who failed to plan ahead, rather
than blame the person who was driving 20 miles/hour below the
speed limit in front of me.

>From "Into action": "Every day is a day when we must carry the
vision of God's will into all of our activities."  I now have the
power to live my life.  I can't ignore it.

And now the newcomer, both in the fellowship, and without, can
look at me when I talk to them and can say "There goes a man
with a real answer."  And he can talk to me and find out how
I found that answer.  If I just did the yapping at the meetings
like I used to, people would know.  But the fact that I have an
answer shows in my actions, both around the meeting rooms, and
in my daily life.

(continued in a second post)

Phil W (Moscow, ID)


Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: puckett@lambda.msfc.nasa.gov (Jim Puckett)
Subject: Re: "We are not allied with any sect or denomination" - Really?
Organization: NASA/MSFC
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 15:17:53 GMT

porta@wam.umd.edu (David Delaney Palmer) writes:

>	There are groups of recovering Pagans that use the 12 steps, but
>we do not recite the Lord's pray.  IMO that prayer is outwardly biased 
>towards Christianity.

Recoverying Pagans - does that mean that they are recovering from 
Paganism?  8-)

love and service,
jim p.
-- 
Jim Puckett    NTI    puckett@lambda.msfc.nasa.gov     
Madison,AL (205)461-4922  
i need to ask myself.....
***********         Would I rather be right, or happy?         ***********
From: weiss@leopard.cs.uidaho.edu (P. Andrew Weiss)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: AA tradition w.r.t. Christianity.
Date: 15 Dec 1992 01:33:29 -0600
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

A gentleman just piped up with a beef about how AA goes against
the saying espoused in the "AA preamble" and allies with a sect.

Any group may do whatever it wants.  Really.

What my sponsor tells me is that a meeting is supposed to be
a safe place to talk about sobriety.  For the unity of the group,
if that means we close with the "Lord's Prayer" it means we
close with the "Lord's Prayer."  Personally, I dislike the
prayer.

What concerns me though is the tendency of people to want AA to
do things the "right" way.  As in, the Lord's Prayer is
denominational, so we can't use it.  Wrong.  Only if the group
conscience is that we close with something else.

Recently, my home group just lost its last member who had more
than 10 years of sobriety.  She said the last straw was removing
the Lord's Prayer.  The group voted last Saturday to change from
Lord's Prayer to chairperson's option, Lords or Serenity.

Last year at this time, the group had about 10 members with more
than 10 years sobriety.  No we have none.  Why?  Because we had
a bunch of newcomers flood the group all at once who wanted to
do things the "right" way.  We didn't listen to the old-timers.
Cause goddamnit, it says we don't ally with a sect.  Or, gee,
those speakers don't agree with our brand of AA, so lets go to
a different format.

Well, now that our bleeding deacons are gone, what do we have.

RIght, they are bleeding deacons.  They were wrong to bail when
people didn't listen to them.  Just like the section in "AA comes
of age" on the 9th tradition.  They want their way.

But so did we.  And now I get to look at my part.  I get to ignore
the slights I perceive the old-timers gave us by leaving.  I
didn't listen.

The group didn't die in the ten years it closed with the Lord
Prayer.  People still came.  Now my home group is dying.  Ultimately,
it may recover.  This may be the for the best after all.  Maybe
the bleeding deacons will show up again and become "elder
statesmen."  But I believe we took God out of the group conscience
by not listening to the voices of others.

Take that into consideration when you feel that AA in your
area isn't done right.

Oh, by the way, in regards to the 6-month gentleman's rewrite
of the "How It Works."  Remember that AA has no opinion on cocaine
addiction recovery.  An outside issue.  On one hand, the gentleman
chides AA for allying with a sect, then he proposes a modification
to include an outside issue, which as I remember, is only a few
more lines down in the preamble he started to quote.

Phil W (the Moscow Idaho drunk)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: an2119@anon.penet.fi
Subject: Sex and Love Addiction
X-Anonymously-To: alt.recovery
Organization: Anonymous contact service
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 06:59:40 GMT

Sex and Love Addiction:
20 Questions for self diagnosis  (of 40)

1.  Have you ever tried to control how much sex to have or how often to see
someone?

2.  Do you find yourself unable to stop seeing a specific person even though
you know that seeing this person is destructive to you?

3.  Do you feel that you don't want anyone to know about your sexual or
romantic activities?  Do you feel you need to hide these activities from
others--friends, family, co-workers, counselors, etc..

4.  Do you get "high" from sex and/or romance?  Do you crash?

5.  Have you had sex at inappropriate times, in inappropriate places, and/or
with inappropriate people?

6.  Do you make promises to yourself concerning you sexual or romantic
behavior that you find you cannot follow?

7.  Have you had sex with someone you don't (didn't) want to have sex with?

8.  Do you believe that sex and/or a relationship will make you life
bearable?

9.  Have you ever felt that you _had_ to have sex?

10. Do you believe that someone can "fix" you.

11. Do you keep a list, written or otherwise, of the number of partners
you've had?

12. Do you feel desperation or uneasiness when you are away from your lover
or sexual partner?

13. Have you lost count of the number of sexual partners you've had?

14. Do you feel desperate about your need for a lover, sexual fix, or future
mate?

15. Have you or do you have sex regarless of the consequences (e.g. the
threat of being caught, the risk of contracting herpes, gonnorrhea, AIDS
etc.) ?

16. Do you find that you have a pattern of repeating bad relationships?

17. Do you feel like a lifeless puppet unless there is someone around with
whom you can flirt with?  Do you feel that you not "really alive" unless you
are with your sexual/romantic partner?

18. Do you feel that your only (or major) value in a relationship is your
ability to perform sexually or provide an emotional fix?

19. Do you feel _entitled_ to sex?

20. Do you find yourself in a relationship that you cannot leave?

If reading through these questions has brought home to you the fact that
your sexual activity, romantic behavior, or emotional involvements may be
suspect, what now?

First of all, rest assured that you are not alone--that many of us have
lived out addictive patterns highlighted by these questions, and have found
recovery through Sex and Love Addicts Anonymous.  If there are regular
S.L.A.A. meetings in your area, attendance at these meetings will bring you
into contact with recovering sex and love addicts.

In the event that you know of no such meetings, we encourage you to write
to:

S.L.A.A.
P.O. Box 529, New Town Branch
Boston, MA   02258
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Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: hballar@eng.clemson.edu (henry ballard)
Subject: Re: New in Recovery, need words on relatioships
Reply-To: hballar@eng.clemson.edu
Organization: College of Engineering, Clemson Univ.
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 16:11:51 GMT

 heath@athena.cs.uga.edu (Terrance Heath) writes
>	stuff deleted
>	I've been sober for about 5 months now, and I am (of course)
>dealing with a lot of things that I havent' dealt with sober before.
>One of them is my obsession with being (or not being) in a
>relationship. I know, I know, I know. I've heard it before "You should
>really avoid starting relationships early in recovery because you'll
>be experiencing a lot of raw feelings you've never dealt with before.
>You need to have a strong foudnation in sobriety first. etc., etc., ad
>nauseum.
>
>	more stuff deleted

My experience is that I am an obsessive person, relationships included. 
When I first heard of "no relationships for the first year" I took it 
to mean a license to screw around.  I found myself obsessing and being 
obsessed; and miserable, trying to hide from some people and following 
others like a sick puppy.  Eventually, I got into a relationship that 
almost caused me to use again.  I had some painful endings to 
relationships before I got clean, but the pain of getting out of a 
relationship was _so_ much more intense while clean. 

From some people practicing at having intimate relationships may be what 
works, but for me having a relationship with a higher power, sponser, and 
other people in a non-sexual way is what I need to work on now.  Why 
invite some one to your house when its still full of garbage?  I 
continually try to make myself feel good about me by external things, but 
if I want to be at peace with myself I must learn to live from the inside 
out instead of the outside in.

Since I've been in recovery there have been times that I have felt a peace 
and freedom that I have never known before.  This serenity was not due to 
being in a intimate relationship, but from working the steps, using a 
sponser, and learning how to be a friend to people in and out of recovery.  
I have also been so miserable that I couldn't stand it, from doing things 
my way and not heeding the experience of those who came before me.

For me staying out of relationships  for a year has been changed to staying 
out of relationships until I've worked the steps in their entirety with  my
sponser.  But that means turning my will and my life (including relationships)
over to my higher power.  More will be revealed.
	
---

Henry B.           My views not thiers.		hballar@eng.clemson.edu
_______________________________________________________________________
"We are often most in the dark when we are the most certain, and most enligthened when we are the most confused."                M. S. Peck
_______________________________________________________________________

Newsgroups: alt.recovery,alt.support
From: heath@athena.cs.uga.edu (Terrance Heath)
Subject: New in Recovery, need words on relatioships
Organization: University of Georgia, Athens
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 19:28:10 GMT


	OK. OK. OK.  I've heard from everyone on this. I've read about
it in the Big Book, Twelve and Twelve and some other books. I've
talked to my sponsor about it. Somehow or another I just can't deal.
	I've been sober for about 5 months now, and I am (of course)
dealing with a lot of things that I havent' dealt with sober before.
One of them is my obsession with being (or not being) in a
relationship. I know, I know, I know. I've heard it before "You should
really avoid starting relationships early in recovery because you'll
be experiencing a lot of raw feelings you've never dealt with before.
You need to have a strong foudnation in sobriety first. etc., etc., ad
nauseum.
	But now I find myself focusing on a particular someone with
whom I could have a relationship, maybe even a good one. I want to do
it, but at the same time I know that (With only 5 months under my
belt) I still have trouble dealing with everyday things, let alone all
the baggage that I know comes with relationships. (What am I talking
about!? I don't know anything about relationships! I've never been in
one! All I know about relationships I learned from reading self-help
books and from watching the Oprah Winfrey Show.).
	Yet, I'm also afraid that if I jump on this opportunity I
might miss out on something good (and I'm not convinced that the
chance will come back around again). I dunno. I've always been
neurotic about how much I hate being single. Maybe I'm buying into
this whole "relationships are the be-all and end-all of exsitance"
mentatlity.  I dunno.
	But I'm afraid to put my sobriety at risk this early on. I'm
also afraid I'm going to end up a lonely, little old man who wears
tweed and spends his days walking his absurdly groomed little dog. And
I'm only 23.
	Now that I've ranted and raved, does anyone out there have any
helpful hints?  C'mon folx, here a newbie in need of your experience,
strength and hope.
-- 
"Black men loving black men is THE revolutionary act!"
			-Joseph Beam_
Terrance Heath 
heath@athena.cs.uga.edu
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: ssw5356@ritvax.isc.rit.edu
Subject: Re: Thank you all very much.
Reply-To: ssw5356@ritvax.isc.rit.edu
Organization: Rochester Institute of Technology
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 17:41:42 GMT

In article <7116@ac13.cs.nps.navy.mil>, rpwhite@taurus.cs.nps.navy.mil (rpwhite) writes:
>I don't participate in the group very much, but I thought I'd take a
>minute to thank you all, and the people like you, who helped me make it
>through 13 years of sobriety in AA.
>
>THANKS!       You'er welcome...don't forget to pass it on.  Silvia W.
>
>Rich
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: puckett@lambda.msfc.nasa.gov (Jim Puckett)
Subject: Re: What!??!? I'm not finished?!
Organization: NASA/MSFC
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 16:40:19 GMT

weiss@leopard.cs.uidaho.edu (Phil Weiss) writes:

>The twelfth step (yeppers, we're in December...) states: "Having
>had a spiritual awakening as the result of the steps, we tried
>to carry this message to alcoholics and to practice these principles
>in all our affairs."

Phill goes on to list some 'principles'....
Nice stuff, but this step says 'these principles' & 'these steps' (not
'the' steps, as Phil misquoted 8-). It doesn't say 'some other principles
that you may can dig out of the text somewhere.' it says 'these principles'.

...and in the next paragraph, the BB sez 'the principles we have set down
are guides to progress.'

OK jim, whaddinahellya talking about?

..simple. Principle - 'a guide or rule establishing conduct, behaviour or
action.' The principles are the Steps. Twelve principles. Not 'the 
principles behind the steps' like those laundry lists folks like to put
out. It ain't our job to add anything to the Big Book, or to delete
anything. The First Principle is to admit that we are powerless over
alchol, that our lives had become unmanageable, etc. To practice these
principles in all our affairs means that there is no area of my life that
is to be divorced from the Steps - you know, the "i'm not supposed to do these
steps in buisness/home/etc, just in AA or in relation to alchol" attitude.

jim p.
-- 
Jim Puckett    NTI    puckett@lambda.msfc.nasa.gov     
Madison,AL (205)461-4922  
i need to ask myself.....
***********         Would I rather be right, or happy?         ***********
Newsgroups: alt.recovery