HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: dcrosgr@uoft02.utoledo.edu
Newsgroups: talk.rape
Subject: Re: Question for Scott
Date: 23 Jul 92 12:42:22 EST
Organization: University of Toledo, Computer Services

In article <1992Jul23.082617.156602@cs.cmu.edu>, garvin+@cs.cmu.edu (Susan Garvin) writes:
> In article <1992Jul23.072136.2998@leland.Stanford.EDU> farthing@leland.Stanford.EDU (ljf) writes:
> #In article <1992Jul22.235648.8867@uoft02.utoledo.edu> dcrosgr@uoft02.utoledo.edu writes:
> 
> ##
> ##Listen, you reported your incident. Great. Here's a cookie. It will go good
> ##with the additional degrading the police gave you.
> #
> #This is really low, DC.  It shows appalling insensitivity to what
> #happened to Goehring.
> #
> #If a woman had posted about the mistreatment she received after
> #reporting a rape, would you respond like this?
> #
> #(Why do I even ask a question like that?  You probably would, you're
> #probably proud of being insensitive.)
> 
> This person seems to be proud of being obsessed by rape, so
> no doubt he's proud of being insensitive as well.  

Or, perhaps, Susan, you failed to see that I was saying there was no way I
would want the additional disgust of having the police treat me the way they
treated Scott. He has posted they treated him grossly, and then he places a
burden on me to go through the same? And then he says that if the incident
should happen to wreck my life more becuase I report it than if I don't, that
is something I should live with.

And you say I am the insensitive one? Scott is stating that no one should ever
make up their own mind as to whether or not to report a rape, and I am
insensitive??? Jesus. Two months ago the prevailing posting was that part of
the healing process is where a woman decides to either come forward, or not.
Everyone agreed that it was her decision and hers alone. 

Then Scott comes forward and says that men are obligated to report being raped,
despite the fact they get treated worse than female rape victims.

What is the difference Susan? DO men have less autonomy than women?

As for being proud of being obsessed by rape, where do you get that logic from?
From the fact I subscribe to the same newsgroup as you? From the fact that
I post articles I come across so others may read them? Tell me Susan, 
what is it that makes you believe I am obsessed about rape?

As for being insensitive. Yes. That I am. But only to people who who, even
when they are presented with evidence that their beliefs are wrong, cling to 
their dogma.

So, you might as well keep me in your killfile (God, what a slam!) because
when someone keeps droning on with the same tired routine, and nothing to 
back it up, I will always be intolerant.

DC



> 
> Forgive me, if you will, for opting out of discussions with
> this piece of slime.  This really isn't the appropriate group
> for me to express my feelings toward him.
> 
> I guess I'll have to readjust the killfile again.  
> 
> Susan
From: dcrosgr@uoft02.utoledo.edu
Newsgroups: talk.rape
Subject: Time travel on talk.rape?
Date: 29 Jul 92 00:49:39 EST
Organization: University of Toledo, Computer Services

Are other system getting repeats posts from afew days ago, or is UofT02 screwed
up?

DC

Newsgroups: talk.rape
From: farthing@leland.Stanford.EDU (ljf)
Subject: Re: The reason for Rage
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 92 06:56:26 GMT

In article <rauser.711445371@sfu.ca> rauser@fraser.sfu.ca (Richard John Rauser) writes:
>   Karen is a fictional character but there are thousands of Karens all
>across Canada and the United States who suffer sexual abuse every day.
>And there are thousands of Jacks who feel the rage and emotional barreness
>that goes with it.
>
>    Jack went nuts. He lost it. When he saw his father kissing his sister
>he snapped. He bought a gun and executed his father. But he did more than
>just that. He also made his sister watch. When she tried to stop hiim he
>tripped her and pressed the gun into her face. When they were about to
>drive away he said, "You can bury him if you want." This wasn't a sincere
>offer; he was almost mocking her. He was disgusted with her. He couldn't
>understand why she would want the father to live.

The problem with this is that many incest victims (survivors if you
prefer) have very mixed feelings about the parent (or parental figure)
who molests them.  There are both love and hatred.

Think about it.  This is a parent who shelters you, looks after you,
says s/he loves you, feeds you, clothes you, talks with you, takes you
places, etc.  This is a dad who teaches you how to play baseball,
helps you with your homework, tells you what a great son you are, and
molests you on a fishing trip.  This is a mom who helps you with your
homework, buys you a Barbie doll, tells you what a wonderful daughter
you are, and molests you as she's bathing you.

It's not so cut and dry.  I think that's the hardest part--to know
that someone you love and who loves you would do something so
terrible, would betray your innocence and trust so horribly.
From: dcrosgr@uoft02.utoledo.edu
Newsgroups: talk.rape
Subject: Re: To amy young: Thank your lucky star ...
Date: 25 Jul 92 13:11:22 EST
Organization: University of Toledo, Computer Services

In article <1992Jul24.224422.1503@brtph560.bnr.ca>, kimmyd@bnr.ca (Kimmy Posey P920) writes:

> I'd rip his head off and ask questions later.  I don't know if you have ever
> been raped.  I hope not.  I doubt that you have judging from your attitude.
> I feel sure that if some 250 pound whacko drank a couple of gallons of beer and
> then broke into your house forced himself on you then you might think a little
> differently.  I hope it never happens.  But just a word of advice.  Be very
> careful about who you call an ignorant boob.  You never know who might be on
> the other end of the network.  It might be some 6'2'' tall, 225 lb. manic-
> depressive with less than 5% body fat and nothin' left to lose.
> 
> KimmyD

As I said, IMHO this person is beyond help.

I really suggest correspondence with him be severly curtailed, as this sounds
very much like a threat/cry for help. 

DC
From: kimmyd@bnr.ca (Kimmy Posey P920)
Subject: DC: Lay off buddy ...
Organization: Bell-Northern Research, BNR-RTP 
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 15:12:27 GMT

... you're gettin' off the subject and on my nerves.  I didn't come here to
debate the morality of war with you.  Hey man it's a bad thing.  And no I
don't feel those people invading home and hearth deserve to die.  It's just
a matter of them or us.  Basic survival.  Also I didn't save anything about
foreign invaders, I said foreign aggressor.  Bad Ol' Saddam Insane was
certainly (and still is) just such an aggressor.  By threatening the security
of not only our nation but the rest of the western world by seizing the
richest oil deposits on earth , he brought on his own destruction.  Rightly
deserved IMO.  You sighted many other cases but like I said none of that is
relevant to this subject area.

DC I am appalled that you would use words like "pussy" and "faggot/homo"  I
certainly haven't used that kind of language.  Of course I would come to the
defense of a man being assaulted.  I just don't think I would be as motivated.
Sorry, just the way I am.  I don't see the connection to this attitude and my
position on punishment for rape.  Pardon my density but maybe you could
enlighten me.  And thank you, but no, I don't think I would like to be shredded
by feminist.  

What d ya' say we lay off or at least de-escalate.  I mean I didn't even
address that last post to you yet you felt compelled to respond.  This crap
ain't helpin' nobody man.

KimmyD

P.S.:  If you are just lookin' for someone fight with, go pick on somebody
       your own size man.  Your beatin' me up to bad ...
From: dcrosgr@uoft02.utoledo.edu
Newsgroups: talk.rape
Subject: Re: The reason for Rage
Date: 21 Jul 92 13:49:47 EST
Organization: University of Toledo, Computer Services

In article <SCG.92Jul21085828@mentor.cc.purdue.edu>, scg@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Scott Goehring) writes:

> 
> So, you're right.  Homophobic cops make it unwise to report same-sex
> rape.  It's a fucking shame our police aren't interested in protecting
> the rights of all our citizens; only the ones they find morally
> upstanding.
> 
> Or were you talking about your own inability to deal with
> homosexuality?

Inability? No, I deal with them just fine. I ignore their rantings
and move on to issues that concern me. (Sorry, but life is too short
to get involved with everyone's plight.)

DC
From: scg@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Scott Goehring)
Newsgroups: talk.rape
Subject: Re: Homosepciesexist fantasies.
Date: 31 Jul 92 13:38:50 GMT
	<SCG.92Jul29180042@mentor.cc.purdue.edu>
	<1992Jul30.083253.9058@uoft02.utoledo.edu>
Reply-To: scg@mentor.cc.purdue.edu
Organization: Society for the Prevention of National Mudding Associations

dcrosgr@uoft02.utoledo.edu writes:

>That is correct, you are not gay. You are bisexual. It doesn't matter
>if you haven't had such experiences willfully.

Bullshit.  The mere fact that some shithead in Texas got the notion to
try to stick his dick up my ass (he failed, by the way - no
penetration) does not make me bisexual.  Sexual preference describes
what *I* want, not what others have forced upon me.

You remind me of my wife's grandmother, who believes that a man can't
be gay if he's ever had sex (even once) with a woman.  Such a man is,
in her opinion, obviously bi.  That's how she can manage to avoid
having to admit that my wife's father is gay.

>A teenage male who fantasies about sex with women all day long, but
>has never even kissed one, is heterosexual. A teenage female who
>fantasizes about nothing but sex with another woman (women) is
>homosexual.

A man who fantasizes about raping women all day long, but has never
actually done so, is a rapist.  A woman who fantasizes about nothing
but being raped is a rape victim.

>A man who has done nothing but screw women, but only fantasies about
>screwing men, is mostly gay. Ditto for the wanton woman who fantasies
>about women, but sleeps only with men.

A man who has done nothing but have consentual sex with women, but
only fantasizes about raping them, is mostly a rapist.  

Stop vacillating, DC.  First you insist that fantasies aren't the same
as actually doing it, and now you insist they are.  Make up your mind,
dear.

--
"in public debate our own citizens must tolerate insulting, and even
 outrageous speech in order to provice adequeate breathing space to the
 freedoms protected by the First Amendment."
	-- Justice William Rehnquist, in _Hustler Magazine v. Falwell_
Newsgroups: talk.rape
From: alyoung@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (amy young)
Subject: Re: Rape in any form ...
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 20:46:26 GMT

In article <1992Jul23.054658.3854@brtph560.bnr.ca> kimmyd@bnr.ca (Kimmy Posey P920) writes:
>I just subscribed to this group and after reading only a few of the b-zillion
>messages here I found myself compelled to make a couple of statments:
>
>  1) Anyone who commits a rape deserves death.  Period.

It is so much easier to just sweep the problems (or in this case, the
bodies) under the rug when there are problems, isn't it?  Granted,
I think that anyone who commits rape is sick and needs severe help,
but I do believe that even those who are spawned in this society that openly
promotes rape beyond the pc lip slapping can be helped, and as a
"civilized" society it is out duty to make every effort to do so. 

>  2) Anyone who has rape fantasies is sick and should seek professional help.

You simply overlook one fact:  if someone is voluntarily thinking of
having someone force them to have sex, it's overall a voluntary
action, now isn't it?  They are called "rape fantasies" because that's
what it would look like on the surface to someone if they were
recounted the story; it's not what it really is.  It's just easier
than saying someone is having a fantasy where they imagine many
different forms of domination blah blah blah.

>  3) Anyone who gets his / her cookies watching rape scenes on film refer to
>     item (2) above.

You're so open minded, aren't you?  I suppose that you are also
against every movie and television show that has any form of violence
in it, right?  It's a pretty simple notion that watching something and
doing something are two different things. 

>  4) Anyone who condones rape should refer to item (1) above.

Anyone who condones the killing of another in my book doesn't rate
very highly... 

>Rape is the most hideous crime that can be perpetrated on another human being.

One of them, yes.

>It is a form of twisted, savage, deviant, mal-adjusted behavior.  As a guy
>who's reason for living was brutally raped by 3 different animals in her

Ah, now we see the reason for the chip. 

>family on a daily basis from age 6 - 13, I am appalled by some of the things
>I have read here.  I can only hope that some of you will not one day have the
>person you love more than your own life tell you that every act of love that
>you have shown her (or him) for the last 13 years sickened her and she never
>wants you to touch her again.  All because some piece of non-human garbage
>forced it's perverted desires on her.

I hope that if she hasn't gotten help already that she do so, and I
also hope you do as well.  Good luck.

amy
-- 
"Quick to judge, quick to anger.... slow to understand. 
	       		Ignorance and prejudice, and fear, walk hand in hand."
              						--Neil Peart
-------------Me speak for my employer....?  bwaahahahahahahaha!!!--------------
From: snyeva01@uctvax.uct.ac.za
Newsgroups: talk.rape
Subject: Re: rape - lust apology
Date: 28 Jul 92 10:43:32 +0200
Organization: University of Cape Town

In article <1992Jul28.015659.7944@a.cs.okstate.edu>, boggs@a.cs.okstate.edu (BOGGS RICHARD GRAN) writes:
> snyeva01@uctvax.uct.ac.za writes:
>>I am very sorry, but it seems as if someone got hold of my password and had
>>some fun. The posting labelled "rape - lust" was not written by me Evan Snyman
>>and I totally dissociate myself from any such sentiment.
> 
> Not to say differrently, but you certainly must have just walked in on this
> person as they were Pnews'ing the article out.  You're article of appology was
> posted to the Net a mere 3 minutes and one second after the aticle you are
> appologizing for.
> 
> My guess, if I were making one, would be that you just posted that for fun to
> see what type of responses you could elicite.
> 
> But no hard feelings from me.  I believe you.  (whisper) But will they?
> 
> -- 
> Grant Boggs
> boggs@a.cs.okstate.edu
> Oklahoma State University
> Stillwater, Oklahoma

If you actually took the time (pun intended) you Shit (another pun intended)
you would notice that the time difference of three minutes occurs at twice in
the postings which followup to "rape - lust". Could this be mere coincidence or
is it merely a Russian plot to subvert the youth at university level by 
spreading disinformation causing chaos and giving rise to anarchy.
From: dcrosgr@uoft02.utoledo.edu
Newsgroups: talk.rape
Subject: Homosepciesexist fantasies.
Date: 29 Jul 92 13:35:12 EST
Organization: University of Toledo, Computer Services

In article <1992Jul29.151700.5678@leland.Stanford.EDU>, farthing@leland.Stanford.EDU (ljf) writes:
> In article <SCG.92Jul29084550@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> scg@mentor.cc.purdue.edu writes:
>>dcrosgr@uoft02.utoledo.edu writes:
>>
>>>The biggest difference I can think of is a woman can fulfill her
>>>sexual fantasies any time she wants. Men must wait for the woman to
>>>want to fulfill hers before they can fulfill theirs. 
>>
>>Doesn't it generally take two (or more) to fulfill a sexual fantasy?
>>How it is any different for women?  A woman needs a willing partner
>>(male or female), just as a man does.
> 
> I bet every hetero/bi woman who read that wondered just how she could
> get Tom Cruise to fulfull her fantasy.
> 

There is the key--many women focus not on so much what is being done as who is
doing it with them. They can have sex with any average guy, but they wait until
the right one comes along before they lose their inhibitions about going
through with it.

Ask you average 20 year old male how many women in the bar he would be willing
to go home with, and the number is going to be MUCH higher than if you asked
the average female how many of the males she would be willing to take home.

And if you live in a place where that is not true, please, please give me the
name of where this paradise is!

>>By the way, some of my sexual fantasies do not involve women in any
>>way.  Some require both men and women.  Please be careful not to shove
>>'sexual fantasies' into the heterosexual one-on-one mold.
> 
> Heterosexism in action.  "I'm straight, so everyone is."  And then
> straights wonder why lesbigay people see the need to point out that
> we're not straight.

No, we just wonder why every one of our statements which do not include all
sub-categories of possible alternative lifestyle variances get slammed by gays.
Jesus Christ, I left out the people who fantasize about porking dogs and
horses. Why aren't you also standing up for THEIR rights to be included in each
and every conversation???

Homospeciesexism in action? "I like other humans, so everyone does."

Shame on you! Why are you only standing up for your own sub-group? Isn't that 
what you attacked me for? Hmmmm??? Sounds kind of hypocritical to me.


DC

PS. I also left out people who do not fantasize at all. (Yes, they do,
according to studies, exist.) Perhaps I should have stated a warning that I was
talking about different-gender, same-species, fantasizing-humans, fantasies.
From: dcrosgr@uoft02.utoledo.edu
Newsgroups: talk.rape
Subject: Re: Rape in any form ...
Date: 24 Jul 92 07:34:30 EST
Organization: University of Toledo, Computer Services

In article <1992Jul24.030010.11481@samba.oit.unc.edu>, tenney@med.unc.edu (Charles R. Tenney) writes:

> 
> Of course, there is another kind of fantasy of being raped, in which one
> imagines what one would do if such-and-such happened.  After all, fantasy
> is the way we deal with hypotheticals, so if the hypothetical becomes
> real, we aren't blindsided, but have some idea how we want to deal with
> it.  DC's homosexual rape fantasies have involved murdering the rapist.
> (And I don't think that makes him a real murder threat.)

Whoa! Excellent post so far. Just one clarification. I do not now, nor have I
ever, nor will I ever, have any homosexual rape fantasies. (Unless, I were
to fantasize about being a woman with another woman, but that would surely
NOT end in anything other than bliss for BOTH parties.) The recent 
debate hinged upon a hypothetical situation, with the probable outcomes.

At no time was it my fantasy.


DC


Newsgroups: talk.rape
From: sheehan@pagosa.scd.ucar.edu (Tim Sheehan)
Subject: Re: Homosepciesexist fantasies.
Organization: NCAR/UCAR
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 17:27:04 GMT

In article <1992Jul30.083253.9058@uoft02.utoledo.edu>, dcrosgr@uoft02.utoledo.edu writes:
 > That is correct, you are not gay. You are bisexual. It doesn't matter if you
 > haven't had such experiences willfully.
 > 
 > A teenage male who fantasies about sex with women all day long, but has never
 > even kissed one, is heterosexual. A teenage female who fantasizes about nothing
 > but sex with another woman (women) is homosexual.
 > 
 > A man who has done nothing but screw women, but only fantasies about screwing
 > men, is mostly gay. Ditto for the wanton woman who fantasies about women, but
 > sleeps only with men.
 > 
 > Now, take the paragraph above, instead of "gay" in line three, insert
 > "lesbigay" or "bigayles" or "gaybiles" or whatever PC phrase you want inserted
 > in there, and the statement remains the same.
 > 
 > DC

I should probalby know better than to argue with DC, but here goes...

What are you basing these statements on? Is this some conventional wisdom
that I missed? Earlier this week, someone stated that our understanding
of fantasies today is where our understanding of masturbation was fifty
years ago. So have we taken a giant leap in the last day or so that I
missed? Help me out, I missed the last copy of the National Enquirer;^).


Now, I would like to extend this logic to another type of fantasy that has
been the topic of hot discussion in this group. Are any of the following
true?

1) A teenage male who fantasies about rape all day long, but has never
   committed one, is a rapist. A teenage female who fantasizes about
   nothing but being raped is a rape victim.

2) A man who has done nothing but screw women who consent, but only
   fantasies about screwing who do not consent, is mostly a rapist.
   Ditto for the wanton woman who fantasies about being raped, but sleeps
   with men only on a consentual(sp?) basis -- she is mostly a rape victim.
 
Now, take the paragraphs above, instead of "rapist", insert "potential
rapist"; instead of "victim" insert "probable victim"; instead of "man"
insert "woman"; and instead of "woman" insert "man."

It is agreed in this forum that rape is bad. It is not agreed whether
or not fantasizing about rape is good or bad. It is not agreed whether
someone who fantasizes about raping is a likely rapist. It is also
not agreed whether someone who fantasizes about being raped has a true
desire to be a victim.

If memory serves me correctly, you advocate that there is nothing about
having rape fantasies that that makes one a likely rapist or rape victim.
You believe that there is nothing inherently wrong in having rape fantasies.

Now, you are telling us that whether a person is heterosexual, bisexual,
or homosexual can be determined solely on the basis of fantasies? It seems
like you want it both ways.

-- 
-Tim-

sheehan@ncar.ucar.edu
From: dcrosgr@uoft02.utoledo.edu
Newsgroups: talk.rape
Subject: Re: Kathi's lies continue...
Date: 25 Jul 92 13:18:54 EST
Organization: University of Toledo, Computer Services

In article <1992Jul24.230604.18648@umbc3.umbc.edu>, cs611a10@umbc5.umbc.edu (cs611a10) writes:

>   Does anyone out there still have any posts with "violate" in it, and can they
> post who was the "REAL" author of the letter.  I'll place my bets its not 
> D.C. or any one else defending his side of the issue.
>   
>   DTB

Actually, I did do one with violate in it right after Kathi started to scream
about R.S.'s mis-understood fantasy reference. In it, I said that we all knew
R.S. was not really fantasizing about violating Kathi's body, but as she was
hyper-senesitive on the subject, he probably, out of sympathy for her
situation, should explain to her that he was not fantasizing about her at all.

Somehow, she warped this into me stating that I too was having lurid
fantasies about violating her body.

Go figure.

DC
From: pepke@ds1.scri.fsu.edu (Eric Pepke)
Newsgroups: talk.rape
Subject: Re: The Fallacy of Forgiveness (was: Re: Preface to Bible-Bashing of Gays)
Date: 24 Jul 92 20:25:43 GMT
Reply-To: pepke@ds1.scri.fsu.edu (Eric Pepke)
Organization: Florida State University, but I don't speak for them

In article <SCG.92Jul20134039@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> scg@mentor.cc.purdue.edu writes:
>There is a select group of people that I hate.  They are the people
>who sexually abused me and my wife.  I refuse to let anything or
>anybody tell me that I cannot hate these people.
>
>I personally think they deserve my hate, considering all the damage
>they did to us.

Whether you hate someone or not is, of course, up to you.

I hope that you realize, however, that hatred in and of itself has exactly 
zero effect on anybody outside your brain.  People outside your brain can be 
affected by your actions, but not by your feelings.  The only way your feelings
can come into play is if they affect your actions.  Even then, they affect you 
more directly than anybody else.

The decision to hate is better made on the basis of whether you deserve the
effects rather than on what the object of the hatred deserves.

-EMP