HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: sharonc@meaddata.com (Sharon Crichton)
Subject: Re: Scores from Centerville, OH (and mini-review)
Organization: Mead Data Central, Dayton OH
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 14:45:58 GMT
Reply-To: sharonc@meaddata.com
Distribution: na

In article <BruGHM.H6J@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, cs50665@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Enter Scogman) writes:
|> 
|> What pieces or the corps doing this year??  Sorry if this is a redundant
|> question, but I haven't had a chance to see any shows and just joined
|> the alt.drumcorps.

I thought about just emailing a reply, but I decided to post just to avoid
all those "me too!" posts in case anyone is reading and also wants to know.
I can only give you what was in the souvenir book for Centerville last night.
(don't have the whole book - I only stole the score sheet page out of my
friend's so that I could record the scores)

Limited Edition: "Give My Regards to Broadway" "Ballod of Sweeney Todd"
                 "Comedy Tonight" "Send in the Clowns" "Overture of Overtures"

Bluecoats: "Eleanor Rigby" "The Long and Winding Road" "Penny Lane" "A Day
           in the Life" Show is titled _A_DAY_IN_THE_LIFE_

Velvet Knights: "Brazil" "Kodo Thunder" (great drums!) "Trepak" "Hungarian
                Rhapsody #2" Show is titled _MAGICAL_MYSTERY_TOUR_

Glassmen: "The North Wind" "Madre de la Tierra" "Escapades of Pan" Show is
          titled _A_CHILD_REMEMBERED_

Dutch Boy: "Unforgettable" "Avalon" "Beauty and the Beast" "Festival de Ritmo"
           Show is titled _PRIME_CUTS_-_THE_BEST_OF_TODAY_

Cavaliers: "Gavorkna Fanfare" "Cornish Dances" "English Dances" "Peterloo
           Overture" Show is titled _REVOLUTION!_

Crossmen: "Begin, Sweet World" "Appalachian Morning" "The Four Elements"
          "Rain Forest" "Journey Under the Sun" Show is titled _SONGS_FOR_
          PLANET_EARTH_

-- 
Sharon Crichton         *****************   Mead Data Central
sharonc@meaddata.com    **HAPPY! HAPPY!**   P.O. Box 933
uunet!meaddata!sharonc  **  JOY! JOY!  **   Dayton, OH 45401
                        *****************   FAX: (513) 865-1655
Newsgroups: alt.drumcorps
From: pae@blackcat.stortek.com (Phil Earnhardt-x8236)
Subject: Re: competitive spirit (was Re: Bridgemen)
Summary: ...and Tee shirts
Organization: Storage Technology Corp.
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 16:37:37 GMT

In article <1992Jul27.202415.15158@vaxeline.ftp.com> kal@vaxeline.ftp.com (Kelleigh A. Lewis) writes:
>All this discussion reminds me of a tee-shirt the Cadets sold at their boothe 
>a couple of years back [...]:

The Scouts said this in their own magical way on a T-shirt a few years
back:

Brad, a Scout member, is out on a heavy date. Brad's girlfriend, pushing him
away, says: "Gee, Brad, I thought you told me scoring wasn't important."

I guess you had to be there...

That shirt, and Sun Coast's "teach them quick before they think" shirts take
my prize as the best Tees of the 80s.

>		Kelleigh

--phil
From: jvbutera@grad00.math.ncsu.edu (Jeffrey V. Butera)
Newsgroups: alt.drumcorps
Subject: Re: Charlotte NC Show
Date: 31 Jul 92 15:48:33 GMT
Organization: NCSU Mathematics Dept.

>Bob

Hey Bob- did you go to the Charlotte Show by any chance?  I haven't
seen you post about it so I gather not.  Anyway, there was a car
who let their lights on.  TAG: GURU-1 or something like that.  Figured
it might be yours...... -\
>                        |
>--                      |
>-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=V=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>-=- Bob Berry -=- Net-Guru's Inc.        ! rwberry@hubcap.clemson.edu   -=-
>-=- Teach them quick, before they think. ! 803-654-7623 || 803-656-1076 -=-
>-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-


-- 
Jeff Butera <> Math Grad Student, N.C. State <> jvbutera@math.ncsu.edu

DISCLAIMER: My views are my own and I'll be a big N.C.State Wolfpack 
fan as soon as hell freezes over.  Until then... Go Clemson Tigers! 
Newsgroups: alt.drumcorps
From: kal@vaxeline.ftp.com (Kelleigh A. Lewis)
Subject: Re: Drills and Drillwriting
Organization: FTP Software, Inc., Wakefield, MA
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 13:35:56 GMT

In article <1992Jul29.133138.3756@vaxeline.ftp.com> kal@vaxeline.ftp.com (Kelleigh A. Lewis) writes:
>In article <5DiNoB2w165w@willard.UUCP> dawson@willard.UUCP writes:
>>DER107@psuvm.psu.edu writes:
>>
>>Well, no, I didn't work under Zingali, but I did actually get to meet him.
>>I remember standing in the stands at Miami to watch Garfield's encore.....
>>One would have thought that he'd seen enough... but the man was absolutely
>>orgasmic over every move in the show.  Most amazing!  Was he so in love
>>with his own work, or was he deeply mired in appreciation for Garfield's
>>execution?  Perhaps someone from that era that actually worked with him
>>knows...
>
>>>>I marched under George, and my fiance wrote and taught with him. George
>put his heart and soul into everything he did! He loved and was hopelessly
>devoted to the activity and writing drills. There are many drill writers out 
>there that do it for the money, or some other reason...George did it for the
>kids! George Zingali was an artist, and just as a painter, or a sculpter would
>love his art, George loved his drills!
>
> my $.02
>
>  Kelleigh
>
>  I'm sorry, I should've added that as much as George adored his work, he
adored the people that put his art into motion! He had nothing but respect for
the members of any organization that put in as much time and devotion as
drum corps people do, and of course the members that could actually do what 
he wrote! :-)



Newsgroups: alt.drumcorps
From: pae@blackcat.stortek.com (Phil Earnhardt-x8236)
Subject: Re: Bridgemen
Organization: Storage Technology Corp.
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 22:23:53 GMT

In article <1992Jul24.144645.26044@porthos.cc.bellcore.com> tmv@blitzen.uucp (26129-vandewater) writes:
>Well, I can continue to bash Phantom once again but the above statement
>says it all for me....can someone defend this corps?  Then again, in
>Phantom's defense, they did come in second in 89, and without SCV
>they would have won...but is that the way you want to win finals?
>Sorry about all the Phantom bashing, but THEY DESERVE IT!!  I'm concerned
>that they are not educating their members on the value of competition...

I don't know if there's really anything worthwhile to pursue with this thread.
My interpretation of the law or Drum Corps Karma says:

	If a corps is obsessed with winning, they will destroy
	themselves in the process.

I don't see Phantom doing that. Last year, they really had fun presenting
their program. Winning was important, but it wasn't everything.

As an example, I remember talking to some members of Florida Wave in 1987,
when they were 13th. There was extreme bitterness from the members I talked
with. I was clear at that point that the Wave probably wouldn't ever make
Finals, at least not without a big change in corps management.

Contrast this with the Blue Knights in 1990 -- I talked with several kids
after their 13th place performance. They said that they thought that they
could have made finals, but that they had improved over their 1989 placement
and were eventually going to make it. No bitterness. Extreme politeness. And a
sense of *purpose* in what they had accomplished in 1990. Casey Smith is doing
some great stuff in Denver.

This is not to say that some Finalist corps represent themselves better than
others. Perhaps Phantom would benefit from a bit more decorum. Maybe a major
New Jersey corps could benefit, too. I don't know.

Judging the corps' performance on the field is hard enough; let's not start
off-field judging, too!

>Tom

--phil

Apologies to any fans of Phantom, Florida Wave, Cadets, or Blue Knights that I
upset with this message. 

Newsgroups: alt.drumcorps
From: peteo@Ingres.COM (THE OLDER I GET, THE BETTER I USED TO BE)
Subject: Re: Oldtimer new to network
Summary: 
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.4-b1  
Keywords: 
Organization: ASK Computer Systems, Ingres Product Division
Date: 22 Jul 92 16:15:17 GMT

In article <1992Jul20.203139.23999@hubcap.clemson.edu>, rwberry@hubcap.clemson.edu (Robert W Berry)           writes...
>hall@cs.uidaho.edu (Kelly Hall) writes:
> 
>>How about:
>>Pacific Blue - Vancouver, BC
> 
>Was this the corps with the top hats.  The came to the Midwest one time
>in the early 80's.  If this is who I think it is, they performed at our
>home show in Belleville, IL.
> 
>>Conquistadors - South San Francisco, CA
> 
>I remember them, I use to get them confused with the Mandarin until I
>saw some of their members up close.  They did fairly well in Class A60 a
>few years back.

Yup, I remember these guys. I marched with them in '80, then went to SCV 
in '81.  A couple times in '81, some buddies (that marched in Conquistadors)
and I went back to Con..dor practices and tried to recruit a couple of others.
We were banned from coming to any other rehearsals.  It was weird...they
(the Con..dors) looked at us in awe 'cuz we had made it into SCV.  What a 
head trip. Reflecting back, I realize that we were wrong in doing this, but
it seemed that Con...dors were kind of a feeder corps for BD and SCV since
all of out instructors were alums of either of these two corps AND a lot of
Con...dor people went to BD or SCV.


Pete Ohno
SCV '81, EUPH Platoon

PS.  Mike Rodriggs if you read this, send me mail!  Luv to hear from you...



> 
>>Wow.  A lot of corps have come and gone!
> 
> 
>Sad but true.
> 
> 
>Later,
>Bob
> 
>-- 
>-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>-=- Bob Berry -=- Net-Guru's Inc.        ! rwberry@hubcap.clemson.edu   -=-
>-=- Teach them quick, before they think. ! 803-654-7623 || 803-656-1076 -=-
>-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Newsgroups: alt.drumcorps
From: owens@claven.cambridge.ibm.com (David Owens)
Subject: Re: Show Results Winchester KY
Reply-To: owens@claven.cambridge.ibm.com (David Owens)
Organization: IBM Technical Computing Systems, Cambridge, MA
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 16:09:58 GMT

In article <e0UP03Eg44=800@amdahl.uts.amdahl.com> nih00@amdahl.uts.amdahl.com (NEIL) writes:
>Show Results Winchester KY
>26 July 1992
>
>1	86.9	Santa Clara Vanguard	All Captions
>2	82.1	Velvet Knights
>3	72.1	Mauraders
>4	72.6	Boston Crusaders
>5	64.5	Magic of Orlando
>
>
>Neil   -SCV-

Is there a typo in the scores or in the placements here?  (or did Boston
get a penalty?)  

Has anyone seen the Mauraders in person and want to comment on their show?


Dave Owens BAC 85-88
(Boston staff member who can't wait to join the corps in Allentown for the
rest of tour)

==============================================================================
   David Owens                    VMID:        DAVIDO at CAMBRIDG
   SVS Multiplatform Development  IBMNET:      owens@disney.cambridge.ibm.com
   IBM Research                   Internet:    owens@claven.cambridge.ibm.com
   101 Main Street                Disclaimer:  I am not a spokesman for IBM.
   Cambridge, MA 02142

   You are only young once, but you can stay immature indefinitely.
==============================================================================
Newsgroups: alt.drumcorps
Subject: Caption scores from POC? Anyone know 'em?
From: cputnam@vax1.umkc.edu
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 17:48:31 GMT
Organization: University of Missouri - Kansas City

I know this is a little late, but does anyone happen to have the caption break
downs?  I know who won the captions, but does anyone know where the other corps
placed or their scores in the captions (i.e.-Star won percussion, but how close
were the Devils to them)?

Thanks for the help.

I'll be at Springfield this Wed (August 5th) with BK and Phantom.

Post to you later.

IRC nick-BlueDevil

Newsgroups: alt.drumcorps
From: bfhalls@vela.acs.oakland.edu (HALLS BRADLEY F)
Subject: First Circle
Organization: Oakland University, Rochester MI.
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1992 04:55:14 GMT

Greetings...I have been lurking in the shadows for a few weeks and was
coaxed out of hiding by my friend Pete McKinney and all of the competition
stuff regarding Phantom's somewhat offbeat attitude toward the activity.
(I marced PR in '83-'84, and Devs '85. Have taught Cavies drumline since
'88, although I am more of a consultant now than anything.) I pretty much
vented myself on the phantom thing in my previos post, so I'll get on
with the matter at hand: The Metheny thing. The arrangement we played
in '85 was in 11/8, but I suppose the original could be in 22 or something...
Metheny is really a genious with phrasing. The meter is easiest to understand
by listening to the hand-claps, as the rest of the parts are a little 
difficult to find a beat to. The part went something like this:

oxx ox oxx ox ox oxx oxx ox ox (3-2-3-2-2-3-3-2-2).

The x's are the hand claps, and the spaces were added for clarity.
If it looks a little intimidating, don't worry... it took us a while
to figure it out, too.

BTW, after reading this newsgroup for a while, I would just like to
say how refreshing it is to read well written material from intelligent
people. Glad to be here!

-- Brad Halls (no .sig file yet.. still working on it.)

Newsgroups: alt.drumcorps
From: jvbutera@grad00.math.ncsu.edu (Jeffrey V. Butera)
Subject: Judging.....
Organization: NCSU Mathematics Dept.
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 18:30:49 GMT

OK, my interpretation of judging:

Most judges are quite well educated (musically speaking) and fair and
honest.  however, sometimes I question wether judges are completely 
unbiased or pay close attention to corps scores in previous shows.
Case in point: POC held (July 24ish?) and I see Madison and Blue Devils
about four days later.  Their scores?  both within 0.2 of POC scores.
Now my only though was that Madison pulled off a great performance and
managed to go on AFTER the Devils, yet didn't make up any of the 2.0ish
difference between them.  

Any thoughts out there?


-- 
Jeff Butera <> Math Grad Student, N.C. State <> jvbutera@math.ncsu.edu

DISCLAIMER: My views are my own and I'll be a big N.C.State Wolfpack 
fan as soon as hell freezes over.  Until then... Go Clemson Tigers! 
Newsgroups: alt.drumcorps
From: hall@cs.uidaho.edu (Kelly Hall)
Subject: Re: '79 rememberances--oldtimers
Organization: University of Idaho CS Dept.
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 20:00:35 GMT
X-Posted-From: leopard.cs.uidaho.edu
X-Posted-Through: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In article <14942926@um.cc.umich.edu> R.Vincent.Lamb@um.cc.umich.edu writes:
   Wasn't 1979 the year that
   Madison used the "Tromboniphone" bugles during Granada Smoothie?
   They had an interesting sound.  The only other corps to use them
   was San Jose Raiders in 1982.

DEG (maker of lousy bugles and other instruments) had a sales brochure
showing a happy 27th person playing a tromboniphone bugle.  '80 was the
first year all sorts of odd DEG bugles came out - including the alto (like
a soprano but more bass-sounding) and the flugel.  Maybe my corps got a bad
batch of flugels, but all three of ours were so flat that we had to tune
the entire line to the flatest of the flugels (which always had there sides
all the way in).  What junk.  (Maybe it was the brass lacquer finish?  We
went with gold horns instead of silver in Renaissance).

Anyone remember the Sergeant Perrer-ish bugle SCV or Phantom had at their
promo booth in Birmingham in '80?


--
Kelly Hall == hall@leopard.cs.uidaho.edu
no disclaimer, no cute quotes
Newsgroups: alt.drumcorps
From: cs50665@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Enter Scogman)
Subject: Re: Scores from Centerville, OH (and mini-review)
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 13:36:57 GMT


What pieces or the corps doing this year??  Sorry if this is a redundant
question, but I haven't had a chance to see any shows and just joined
the alt.drumcorps.

Chris
-- 
                   +  Quick to judge, quick to anger
 cs50665.uxa.cso.  +  Slow to understand.
    uiuc.edu       +  Ignorance and prejudice
		   +  And fear walk hand in hand.
Newsgroups: alt.drumcorps
Subject: Re: competitive spirit (was Re:Bridgemen)
From: cputnam@vax1.umkc.edu
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1992 20:02:15 GMT
Organization: University of Missouri - Kansas City


Phil wrote in his posting about competitiveness that any corps that is obssesed
with winning will destroy themselves.  I would have to disagree with that and
turn to my good friends, the Blue Devils. for an example.  Let's face it, there
is no corps out there (not even the infamous Phantom Regiment) that strives for
victory as much as the Devils.  

In a back issue of Drum Corps World (June 14, 1985), on pg. 7, Peter Byrne
writes of the Devils while touring with Suncoast in '84:
	"[conversing with a Devils' soprano he once taught] 'How do you think you're
gonna do?'
	"'We're gonna win.'
	"'You sound pretty definite about it.'
	"'I am definite.  We're gonna kick ass tonight.' [World Championships
night, while they were warming up to go on]
	"'I believe that, you sound great.  But how do you know Garfield won't
be even better than you?'
	"He looked at me uncomprehendingly.  'It doesn't matter what Garfield
does.'
	"What he didn't say, what he didn't have to say was, 'This is the Blue
Devils, man.  It doesn't matter what anybody else does.  This is the Blue
Devils.'"

Later on:
	"But I met that same kid a month or two after Atlanta.  I congratulated
him on what I though was a remarkable performance [2nd behind Garfiels by .1]
	"'We shoulda won,' he moaned
	"'I don't know, Garfield was awfully good that night.'
	"'Yeah, maybe they were, but they weren't as good as us.  We shoulda
won.'
	"The Blue Devils were a great corps in 1984.  But to him and probably
most of the people associated with the Blue Devils, 1984 was a disappointment,
a failure."


Well, that's it for copying, but let me make my point real quick now.

The Blue Devils have always been cocky (I could see it in them when they
marched on the track getting ready for retreat at Omaha this year), and they
always shoot for number one.  They would seem to me to be disappointed with
anything less than a first place.  But the Devils are also, without question
the most consistent corps in the history of DCI (18 years in the top 5 and 17
of the last 18 years in the top 4-'91 being the exception).  They have that
drive but are not destroying themselves.


Well, enough of my opinion.  But I do agree with Phil that the drive to be
number one shouldn't make a great performance like Phantom's '89 show turn to
animosity towards others.  Phantom should have won that year, but I can still
listen to and watch their show and love it all.

Any Devils members out there that could tell us more, please????

IRC nick-BlueDevil
Newsgroups: alt.drumcorps
Subject: Defending BD's honor (Re: Comments on POC (YEH STAR!))
From: cputnam@vax1.umkc.edu
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 06:46:58 GMT
Organization: University of Missouri - Kansas City

In article <1992Jul27.160555.3147@ducvax.auburn.edu>,
cogwynn@ducvax.auburn.edu writes:
 
> 2. Blue Devils
>    I hate the damn dice! Sorry. I thought it put to much clutter on the field.
>    They used them well it just gave me a headache to try to watch. Awesome
>    horns, horrible drums, and a raunchy guard. That about covers it.


I hate to disagree (actually I don't), but did you not watch their show or are
you just wallowing in too much self-pity because the Devils kep whipping SCV?

My first problem is this: You write these great reviews of VK, and Freelancers,
and SCV.  But then the Devils, the corps that could win it all, get this little
three line review.  Of those three lines, 2 of them are devoted to the dice. 
Maybe it's just me, but "Awesome horns, horrible drums, and a raunchy guard"
doesn't quite sum up the Devils' show this year.

Next: The drums are the same ones that have already tied your precious SCV
Dumline this year.  They aren't too bad and I am curious what they did that was
so horrible.  My impression was that they were much improved over last year and
quite superior to SCV.  Now, I'm not a percussion expert, but my friend, who
teaches percussion and is quite well versed in percussion, thought that the
Devils should have gotten the high percussion award on the 21st.  This was the
same night they played against Star.  Star did, of course, win the high
percussion title at Preview.  This means to me that the Devils' drums are at
least pretty good.

Next: Raunchy Guard????  What did they do to be raunchy?  I saw nothing that
should offend anyone.  Maybe if you have been locked up in a convent for the
past 40 years.  But most of us have seen Dirty Dancing or Lambada.  That is as
raunchy as they get.  To me, they were just being the dominant force they are. 
Using their talents to their fullest.

Well, I feel much better now.  I don't want to stir up controversy (i.e.-the
Star thing and now this), but I must defend my favorite corps!!

Anyone agree or disagree with this????

IRC nick-BlueDevil
From: cogwynn@ducvax.auburn.edu
Newsgroups: alt.drumcorps
Subject: Re: Metheny and marching
Date: 24 Jul 92 02:28:28 GMT

In article <92205.124014MHUGHES@MIAMIU.BITNET>, MHUGHES@MIAMIU.BITNET writes:
>  
> I haven't bothered to do it yet, Phil, but have you (or has anyone) figured
> out the meter (or mixing of meters) in "First Circle"?
>  
> Mike

 Give me a few days I'll se what I can do. I know there's an arangement
 somewhere in the music building.

 Chris
Newsgroups: alt.drumcorps
From: bfhalls@vela.acs.oakland.edu (HALLS BRADLEY F)
Subject: Re: Thanks Brad (Blue Devil Brad)!
Organization: Oakland University, Rochester MI.
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 23:40:51 GMT

In article <1992Jul26.201058.1@vax1.umkc.edu> cputnam@vax1.umkc.edu writes:
>
>Brad, thanks for the info.!!!!!  I love the Devils and have always wanted to
>hear from someone that has marched with them.  Please keep it coming.
>
>You said you marched in '85 and I was curious why (if you happen to know) the
>Devils' switched to a little more big band style that year.  They played Latin
>Jazz before that and then went back to it in '86.  Why was this?
>
>Do you know any good Devils stories?
>

Well, I guess I wo call it big band, although it certainly was a
new direction as far as the music selection was concerned. The opener
was "Life Raft Earth", a piece written for jazz band by someone at North
Texas State. The middle part of the show was all ELP, which I guess I
would call "pop rock", albiet pretty creative rock. The closer was another
jazz piece written by Pat Metheny, the recently discussed "First Circle".
(Does anybody know where that name came from? I think I saw a book once
with the same title).

I don't really know why the staff decided to go in a new direction that
year, but I was glad they did. I think the devils have missed some pretty
great music that would work well for them because they are nervous about
straying outside of "proven territory". It would have helped had we won that
year, but the victory in 1986 sealed it. I think they felt "why fix it if
it ain't broken?", and were hesitant to experiment with new forms of music
after that.

Stories? How much time have you got? How about when the food truck burned
up with all the drums in it? Got to go now, but will go into more detail
in a later post if anyone is interested. Was Mike Fath in Cavies that year?
The first show after the big fire was at their show.

Later,  -Brad.




-- 
^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^
Brad Halls                                "Still looking for witty quote."
Computer Science Grad Student              -me         
Oakland University
Rochester, Michigan
bfhalls@vela.acs.oakland.edu

^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^
Newsgroups: alt.drumcorps
From: ck10322@china.medtronic.com (Cameron Kaszas)
Subject: Some remembrances from '79 (oldtimers...)
Organization: Medtronic, Inc., Minneapolis, MN
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 21:50:54 GMT