From: 4224_5201@uwovax.uwo.ca (John LaRocque)
Subject: Re: Jack "King" Kirby: ripped off by Marvel
Organization: University of Western Ont, London
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 06:12:09 GMT

In article <Bzqy9C.Czq@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, tpjg9663@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Tom Johnston) writes:

>>Marvel and especially DC have made it very embarrasing for collectors
>>like myself who buy comics for the art and stories, and not the latest
>>media blitz or marketing campaign. And it is DC's view of comics that
>>pilfers out into the newspapers, the whole idea that comics are for
>>overgrown kids who forgot to grow up.

> Embarassing in what way?  Are you mocked and jeered by friends and
> relatives for your comic reading?  

I used to buy comics during my lunch break. I would sit down and read
the latest Marshall Law or something and I would get extremely lame
comments from people who know nothing about the medium, look right into
your face and say "you still collect comics". Like I said, the outside 
world (the REAL world) will ALWAYS perceive comics as a kids medium -
just look at the Death of Superman TPB flooding ordinary bookstores.
When you say comics - you may mean Maus or Cerebus, but they think
"oh, Death of Superman". In Europe, the publishers actually showcase
their artists' new stories. Comics are read by adults in Europe. Comic
art is considered real art in Europe. And looking at the training
of these guys - it just makes me cry. Even the bad stuff outclasses
your average superhero comic. 

Why, going into Quebec book stores (the French language ones) every
one stocks BDs (bandes dessinees). Mostly European imports and some
of the best American stuff. The adults have their own BD section as
do the kids.  And in the magazine shops you can buy the latest Vecu
or A Suivre.  Like I said, comics are taken seriously everywhere it
seems except the English speaking marketplace.

> If a creator doesn't feel appreciated at Marvel or DC, then he shouldn't
> work there.  Hasn't Mr. Aragones done about 100 issues of Groo for
> Marvel, now?  Surely he could find work elsewhere if he wanted.

Yeah, but Marvel can put his books in more comic shops everymonth. And
as an Epic book, he has a controlling interest in Groo. Lots of EPIC
stuff has been published by people other than Marvel. Not as restricive
as your generic Marvel product.

> And I am saying that your comparison is without basis.  I said this
> by offering the behavior you seemed to be advocating, that of
> buying all comics including those which I do not enjoy.  

Sorry. I am just trashing the view of comics as trash, based on the
mass consumtion of Marvel/DC stuff and the crap in the media, and
the people who actually go out and buy the stuff.

>>[...]  Are we supposed to kiss their
>>fragging feet because Miller and McFarlane and Jim Lee and Alan Moore
>>all made it big at the big two. Who is worshipping at what temple here?

> Don't know about you, but I'm not worshipping at any temple these days.
> I enjoyed the works of Miller, Moore, McFarlane, etc. at Marvel and DC
> and would not let feelings for those companies interfere with my
> enjoyment of the comics produced.

Nor do I. But don't be fooled into giving these guys credit where credit
isn't due. Sure they published the stuff - but in the end, it's Frank 
Miller, not Daredevil or the Mighty Marvel House of Ideas that they remember.

> OK; so your point is that Marvel and DC and comic shop owners
> and distributors promote only the garbage titles, right?  This
> is a point I agree with.  I've complained (perhaps overly much)
> about the lack of quality of Alpha Flight #104

You were suckered into buying that issue. HOHOHOHOHOHOHOHOHOHOHO!!!!! ( :-) )

> and the Superman
> Death issues.  It's a shame DC and Marvel couldn't have put out
> a better product to take advantage of all the hype, and attract
> older, more literate readers into the comic book hobby.

What do you expect? They are not interested in art, only profits. If they
cared about their fans, every couple of weeks Marvel would showcase their
talent (eg the Kubert boys) and let their artists meet the fans on behalf
of their publisher. They do that in Europe - but comics aren't just for
kids there either.

> I don't agree that the quality of comics is going to decline from
> its current level.  It's not as if the big 2 have been aiming for
> quality these many years, and have suddenly decided to treat the
> hobby as if it's for 12-year-olds only. 

Already is!

> But despite the fact that
> the largest audience targeted has been the 12-year-olds, some
> good books have been published, and I don't see why more shouldn't
> be published in the future.

Absolutely! But they are never marketed properly. We have a dealer
in London who will give you a certain discount on "popular" comics -
Marvel, DC, Valiant (yay, Barry Smith), Dark Horse (yay, Frank Miller),
Image (make mine Spawn!) - but will give you only half the discount
on "unpopular" comics like Bone or the Spirit. And
its all the distributors fault. They only favour "popular" titles -
and aren't ready every now and then to carry potentially "unpopular"
comics like Bone and give Marvel-style discounts. One reason Lobo gets
his cardboard "toilet" stand at the cash register and why Cerebus 
doesn't. The distribution system guarantees that only the Big 5 will
be published and spread across North America and why unknowns like
Canada's Lethargic Comics Krew won't. (I love Guy With A Gun!)

And then there are the dealers who start up stores and are told by
these distribution outlets that "only Marvel sells, don't order the
other shit". No wonder the good stuff never gets on the shelf. Comic
dealers are businessman, and many of them don't even read their own
comics, let alone order them. There are a few very good stores - 
like the Beguiling in Toronto. They MAKE MONEY by marketing NON-BIG-5
comics. We need more of them. Tell the dealers to get their heads out
of their asses and convince them that they can make money on non-big-5
comics. Pick up a copy of Advance Comics and look past page 50 to check
out all that great non-big 5 merchandise. If you like something, get
them to order it for you. If they don't - go elsewhere if you can.

I order my comics this way. "Hey, this looks neat. I want it". That's
why I have issue #1 of Bone and why thousands of others can't even get
the first printing. Same with the Barry Smith Valiants. Got Solar #1
right off the shelf. Just think - Diamond probably said - "Don't buy
Valiant - they're new and not reliable sellers like Marvel". Boy am
I laughing. "And you paid $20 for Solar #1, and I only paid $2". 
hahahaha. Diamond - up your ass. Look who's laughing now. HOHOHOHOHO

> Tom

Coming in February - Simpson's Comics and Stories, by Matt Groening!
Check it out!

John

-- 
***FEAR*AND*LOATHING*FEAR*AND*LOATHING*FEAR*AND*LOATHING*FEAR*AND*LOATHING***
**  John LaRocque       ** "If you're the new messiah... I'm going to be   **
**  marshall.law@uwo.ca ** the one to drive in the nails"   MARSHALL LAW   **
***FEAR*AND*LOATHING*FEAR*AND*LOATHING*FEAR*AND*LOATHING*FEAR*AND*LOATHING***

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