From: gary@ke4zv.uucp (Gary Coffman)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,sci.environment,talk.environment
Subject: Re: Subsidies for Roads and Cars in the USA
Date: 14 Oct 92 16:30:09 GMT
Reply-To: gary@ke4zv.UUCP (Gary Coffman)
Organization: Gannett Technologies Group

In article <1992Oct9.001224.11296@s1.gov> lip@s1.gov (Loren I. Petrich) writes:
>In article <1992Oct8.042236.25686@ke4zv.uucp> gary@ke4zv.UUCP (Gary Coffman) writes:
>
>>The debate centers on whether it is more cost efficient, and individually
>>liberating, to switch from automotive transportation to some mass alternative.
>>The indications are that wherever cars are available, most people choose
>>to use them in preference to alternatives.
>
>	You would never know it by how many people use some
>public-transit systems. Gary Coffman, if you ever visit the Bay Area
>someday, try riding BART, especially during commute hours, and you
>will see _lots_ of counterevidence. Even a lot of car owners prefer
>not to drive sometimes, especially when it comes to driving long
>distances every day.

I've ridden BART *once*. I don't intend to do so again. I don't have
the ridership stats for BART versus freeways, but my eyeball estimate
is that BART carries about one freeway lane worth of passengers. Seems
your idea of "a lot" and mine differ.

>The indications are that wherever
>>mass transit operates, it runs at a loss.
>
>	And so do the various road-building and -maintaining agencies.
>They are about 38% subsidized.

If you can show that roads are 38% subsidized by *non-road users* I'll
be interested. Otherwise I would just say that it doesn't matter
*which* pocket the money comes from as long as it all comes out of
the same pair of pants, and that pair of pants occupies a car seat.

>	And on a sufficiently comfortable system (usually a train),
>you can get a lot of reading done. Gary Coffman, you'll never believe
>how much reading I've been able to do on BART, reading I'd never be
>able to do if I had to drive. My only serious annoyance is that BART
>just isn't big enough for my convenience; I eagerly await an extension
>to Livermore.

You'd never believe, Loren I. Petrich, how car sick I get when trying
to read on a moving vehicle. Not to mention how dangerous it is to
look at a book instead of the drug addicts and winos sharing the 
rail car. 23 people have been *murdered* on MARTA this year alone.

>	Even car owners use BART and other public-transit systems; it
>saves a hassle of a drive. And it allows their cars to last longer.
>I've seen BART parking lots packed with cars, and the same thing
>happens at other commuter-train park-and-ride lots. Gary Coffman, why
>don't you see how MARTA park-and-ride lots do some time. And even
>carpoolers and vanpoolers like not having to drive long distances
>every day.

Well, Loren I. Petrich, I have looked at MARTA park and ride lots,
all 8,000 spaces. They're usually about half full on weekdays. That's
about 1/2 of one freeway lane saved by a $30 billion dollar system.
That's MARTA's cost since 1969 when it was started. The newest MARTA
station, the Bankhead station, is closed because there is insufficient
usage to justify operating it. The $40 million station, and the $75
million dollar rail extension to it are rusting away in the weeds
next to I-20.

Show me a US subway system that *breaks even* on it's *operating*
costs, never mind construction cost. MARTA fares cover only 10%
of *operating* cost. The other 90% is looted from the highway trust
fund and a 1% general sales tax. This time the money is coming from
pairs of pants that aren't sitting in MARTA seats.

Gary
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc