From: jeffjc@cs.mcgill.ca (Jeffrey CHANCE)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: Becoming aware
Keywords: the 'prison of belief'
Date: 12 Oct 92 14:18:05 GMT
Organization: SOCS - Mcgill University, Montreal, Canada

rlb@plex-1.ann-arbor.mi.us (Robin Billings) wrote:
>
>Thus, through manipulation of oneself, one attains that which is desired.
>In fact, this very manipulation of the self, which is born of thinking,
>is the problem from which one is so desparately seeking to become free of.
>Following a system and applying the teachings of a guru to oneself, one
>denies one's own natural inclinications and tendencies, suppressing onself,
>and never seeing oneself exactly as one is, without condemnation or
>justification; living one's life according to the instructions of another
>we will forever remain second-hand human beings.  The Earth is covered with
>an ocean of sorrow from millenia of this kind of violence toward others and
>ourselves.  Can all this violence, the need for beliefs and systems itself,
>come to an end?  The guru and his followers are the quintessence of violence.

This makes about 4 posts now in which you are putting down the guru-
disciple relationship. But, in a way you are doing this group a big 
favor because it has always been my belief that truth is arrived at by
contrasting opposing views.

Whether you believe it or not, there are people in this world who are
*meant* to approach God through a Guru-disciple relationship. Because
this is God's Will for these people, this is how they find the most
meaning and fulfillment in life, and all other lifestyles would be
inferior for them. 

The Guru-disciple relationship has nothing to do with violence, absurd.
The disciple is seeking for greater truth and happiness, but is also
aware of the imperfections and energies in his own life which work 
against his aspiration for truth and happiness. In this context he
seeks out that which can help him (ie. a guru). What the guru writes
in his books and says to his students is only one part of what the guru
is. The true God-realized Guru is also able to illumine and transform
the disciple on the basis of their inner oneness. 

If you were a first-year college student wanting to thoroughly 
understand quantum physics, would you seek out a teacher?


>Can we become free of dependency upon authorities altogether, grow up and
>become responsible for ourselves; responsible for understanding the roots
>of our own violence and fear, without depending upon anybody?  Is not the

Don't overestimate your own capacities, Ignorance is more alert than you
or I. Understanding yourself thoroughly in and out requires inner
illumination, and inner illumination is not something that can be had
easily and without effort. If you are willing to wait endless 
incarnations for complete illumination, fine. If not, a God-realized 
Master can help speed up this process. 

>very dependency itself part of the problem?  Tradition is violence.  Let
>us become free of the violence of tradition, of the millenial chain of
>beliefs, dogmas, doctirines, theories, manipulations, and all the ugliness
>perpetrated in the name of beauty.

One last point, please do not confuse traditional organized religion,
eg. the kind which inspired crusades, with a spiritual path involving
a God-realized teacher and his students. Also, be careful how you use
the word "dependancy". In a Guru-disciple relationship there is a
mutual dependancy in that each depends on the other for the relationship
to grow and prosper. In this regard a better way to put it is that
the Guru and the disciple work together.

Jeff
--------------------------------------------------------------
|    Jeff Chance                       | That to which you   |
|    Dept. of Chemistry                | give your attention |
|    McGill University, Montreal       | becomes stronger in |
|    MAIL: jeffjc@binkley.cs.mcgill.ca | your life.          |
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