Newsgroups: bit.listserv.pacs-l
Date:         Fri, 9 Oct 1992 13:19:48 CDT
From:         Public-Access Computer Systems Forum <LIBPACS@UHUPVM1.BITNET>
Subject:      Settling of the Internet

4 Messages, 161 Lines
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From: Gordon Dohle <DOHLE@Vax2.Concordia.CA>
Subject: Re: Settling of the Internet
Congratulations to Elizabeth Lane for her succint statement about
reasonable user interfaces. It should be posted in every computer
science classroom.

Gordon
Dohle@vax2.Concordia.ca

*======================
extract:
There are an awful lot of users out there who most definitely have a
problem using the networks as they now stand. Perhaps you have already
developed solutions to these problems. However, if the solutions fail
to solve the problems of those users, *as they perceive their problems*,
are they really solutions? If I write documentation or design an interface
that users don't feel comfortable with, it doesn't matter how well I
think I've done...I still don't have a successful product. Until we start
designing systems for the *users*, rather than for the designers, I think
we still have a problem. Us "self-proclaimed information professionals"
are often trying to mediate this conflict between the needs of the users
and the expectations of the designers. To dismiss the first as either
nonexistent or unimportant (by virtue of naivete  or any other criterion)
seems to me to be willfully ignorant, and excessively close-minded. To
dismiss the efforts of those in library science and other fields to
improve access to information (which is, after all, the major purpose of
our profession) seems to me to be downright ridiculous.

---
*----------------------------------------------------------------*
| Elizabeth Lane                   Internet: elane3@ua1vm.ua.edu |
| University of Alabama            BITNET:   ELANE3@UA1VM        |
*------
From:         Claudia Lynch <AS04@UNTVM1>
Subject:      Re: Settling of the Internet
>I like Claudia Lynch's comments about the and find them a refreshing
>change from the laments about how hard everything is.  But I was puzzled
>by the reference to the note in the On-Line box (p. A17, 9/30/92) of
>the Chronicle of Higher Ed.  When I looked up the entry, it described
>Stumper-L, a bitnet list for exchange of problem questions among
>Reference librarians.  This seems to be an effective and practical use
>of the Internet, and I don't see what it has to do with the grandiose
>plans of others to organize and codify the internet.
>Jim Morgan
>MORGANJ@INDYVAX.BITNET  MORGANJ@INDYVAX.IUPUI.EDU

I wasn't commenting on the SUBJECT of the note - Stumper-L - but rather
the style that it was written in. It was obviously a press release from
someone who didn't have a clue about networking and was written in, from
my perspective, an embarassingly naieve tone. I would liken it to someone
who had no experience with telephones, discovered them, and then tried to
explain them to others (who have had previous experience with them).

I don't know, maybe I expect too much from people. I was rather dissapointed
that the _Chronicle_ didn't edit the note a bit to fit the level of
expertise of the general readers of that section.

Claudia
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From:         Claudia Lynch <AS04@UNTVM1>

The problem is that people DO have to master arcane something or other.
There are many skills associated with using computers. I agree that we
should all be working to make things more "user friendly." If I didn't,
I wouldn't be in the business I'm in [Documentation Services for an
Academic Computing organization].

What I was attempting to comment on [boy do I wish I still had that
original message] was the "we are here to save the Internet" tone I
felt was being implied in part of the message. I was trying to point
out, somewhat sarcastically, that there has been a lot of documentation
produced about the Internet, BITNET, etc. before last summer. What makes
last summer memorable, for me at least, is that NOW people are trying
to make money off of it. Is this good?

Making money is, certainly, not inherently bad, but it can be if it
gets out of hand. I guess I don't really see the difference, except in
your wallet, of being told "ftp to site xyz and get this really neat
document" and "go to BDALTON and buy this really neat document that used
to be free but now costs $35." Both sets of instructions may require
clarification " you need to type ftp ftp ... and then type anonymous ..."
or "take 35E north until the xyz exit, take a left, etc." Continuing the
analogy, once you learn how to ftp documents you can do it quite handily,
even if you need to keep a "cheat sheet" with you. Once you learn the
way to get to BDALTON you can pretty much go whenever you want to,
although you may need to hold on to your instructions. If someone drew
you a map, you may have to remember the "arcane" rule of mapmaking that
puts North at the top of the paper...

>I think it's unreasonable to say "You don't have the right to complain,
>since you haven't struggled with the system, and finally mastered it
>the hard way, the way I had to." (And although that may not be what
>Claudia meant ...
>
That's right I did not mean that. What I DID mean was - look around a bit,
talk to people, join other lists, maybe even buy a document of two if
you feel a need before you jump in with both feet claiming "there's no
documentation out there, WE need to write some."
>
>... Us "self-proclaimed information professionals"
>are often trying to mediate this conflict between the needs of the users
>and the expectations of the designers. To dismiss the first as either
>nonexistent or unimportant (by virtue of naivete  or any other criterion)
>seems to me to be willfully ignorant, and excessively close-minded. To
>dismiss the efforts of those in library science and other fields to
>improve access to information (which is, after all, the major purpose of
>our profession) seems to me to be downright ridiculous.
>
Ironically, you appear to be accusing me of what I was objecting to -
i.e. "Library Scientists, don't dismiss the efforts of the people on the
nets who came before you, who have been attempting - for quite some time -
to improve access to information (which is, after all, the major purpose
of many people's professions)."

Claudia Lynch
*------
From: jaffe@scilibx.ucsc.edu (Lee Jaffe, Microcomputer & Network Services)
Subject: Re:  Settling of the Internet

Like most things, there are at least two sides to the case.  Most people
on the net more than a year learned how to do it by trial and error with
a few useful hints as they went along.  They didn't take a class, there
were no commercial manuals and the services were a lot less friendly. I
will admit to a certain impatience with folks arrived lately on the scene
who immediately begin by complaining about how hard it is and expect
someone to be able to show them everything they are going to need to know
in about an hour.  I'm not beyond sending someone a tip or a bit of quick
instruction when I can, but I have two thick binders of guides and manuals,
a 3MB HyperCard stack of Internet/Bitnet addresses and another 10MB of
documents and utilities that I have accumulated over the years.  When you
have learned the hard way, it is difficult and sometimes just plain
frustrating trying to share that experience with someone that doesn't
seem to appreciate what it took for you to be able to do this.

I didn't originally like the pioneer/settler analogy but it has its points.
The more recent arrivals may be complaining about how cold it is and just
because we survived the winter of '89, doesn't mean it isn't cold.  Just
because we remember when this part of the world was nothing but wilderness,
doesn't mean that this town couldn't use a school and a church and wouldn't
it be really nice if the railroad would come through here.  And maybe gun
fights in the middle of town just don't make sense anymore.

But, to go back to the other side of the story, the Internet is still largely
wilderness.  It is being tamed and civilized, but slowly.  There are some
comfortable enclaves such as Gopher where you really can't get hurt.  But
if you venture out on your own, beyond familiar territory, you take some
risks.  That's going to be the reality for quite some time.  I think that
my status as an "expert" has less to do with my knowledge of the system and
more to do with the fact that I don't worry that something is going to go
wrong and I'm not often daunted by what I don't understand.  As far as I
am concerned, that's the perfect attitude for exploring the Internet.  For
others, it makes more sense to wait until a territory is "settled" before
venturing out.  Peter Lyman, speaking at ALA a couple of years ago, said
that the Internet was experiencing a clash of cultures.  I think that this
is just another case of that experience.

--- Lee Jaffe
    UC Santa Cruz
    jaffe@scilibx.ucsc.edu