From: awerling@nmsu.edu (WERLING)
Subject: Re: BofA and UW can now support discrimination against blacks and Jews
Followup-To: alt.discrimination,chi.general,alt.atheism,alt.politics.homosexuality,rec.scouting
Organization: NMSU Computer Science
	<AWERLING.92Sep3151559@dante.nmsu.edu>
	<1992Sep4.024603.18373@cbnewsl.cb.att.com>
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 00:28:42 GMT

In article <1992Sep4.024603.18373@cbnewsl.cb.att.com> stank@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (Stan Krieger) writes:

- First  of all, the referenced article, and others like it, are totally
- inappropriate for rec.scouting.  I have asked the most blatant of those
- who have abused rec.scouting for the purpose of publishing and advertising
- the gay rights agenda to please stop doing so and observe the rules
- of netiquette that (1) restricts postings to be consistent with the
- group's purpose, and (2) asks that crosspostings be limited to those
- news groups that are relevant to the discussion.

Yo, Stan.  BSA started this mess.  You wrote me one of those
ridiculous letters too, and have yet to respond to my reply.  To say
that arguing about the BSA's anti-gay rule is inappropriate to
rec.scouting is a blatant case of trying to avoid the issue.

- There are CLEARLY two schools of thought on the whole issue.  The
- one being plastered over the net by gay rights advocates is that
- sexual preference should be a ZERO factor is determining a person's
- suitability for anything.  The other view is that homosexuality is
- immoral and thus is most certainly a factor is determining a person's
- suitability to work with children.  And  the FACT is that nobody's
- view is going to change!!  And the second FACT is that BIGOT, BIGOT,
- BIGOT is going to be answered with just as loud DEVIANT, DEVIANT,
- DEVIANT.

Peoples' views do change, thank g*d, and that's why we have to keep
discussing this.  You, personally, can pull out if you want.  But
don't tell us not to talk about it just because you're insecure about
your position.  Gay people can be *great* with kids.  I know I am.
And guess what?  I've never once tried to molest one!  What a concept!
And I've never once tried to make 'em into faggots!  WOW!  I bet YOU
can't believe that!

- So folks, let just cool it on rec.scouting and let BSA provide a
- program for the boys based on decent, proper, positive, moral
- values and attributes.  

Hmmmm.....like tolerance, acceptance, and love of your fellow human
beings?

Naw, you must be referring to your pseudo-agenda: keeping your kids
safe and heterosexual.  I bet if they turn out to be gay, you'll blame
us "gay activists."

- If you want to join, you know the rules;
- specifically, that you agree to live by the Scout Oath and Scout
- Law.

And agree to NOT be who you really are.

- Now-

- Andrew Werling writes:
- >
- >Guess what, Karen.  Kick out a gay scoutmaster, what are you teaching
- >your children?  That it's okay to bash people for NO reason!

- NO, what you're teaching the children is that adult leaders are expected
- to present POSITIVE values to children, and we've already been through
- this time and time again on rec.scouting.  You've made you statement,
- you've gotten your answer, and I'm very sorry it's not the answer you
- want to hear, but it doesn't change reality.

Reality?  *Knock*knock*....anyone in there?  What do "positive values"
have to do with banning gay leaders?

- >The BSA policy is not a rule, it is an abomination.  To enforce that
- >abomination is discrimination, it is hateful, it is a crime against the
- >rights of individuals universally.

- Oh yeah, I forgot.  Decency and morality aren't politically correct
- anymore.  

What's indecent or immoral about homosexuality?  AND-AND-AND by
*who's* glorious "standards" are we working with anyway?

- I'm very sorry that you've chosen a lifestyle outside
- the mainstream, 

Duh.  I didn't choose it.  It's the hand I was dealt.  That means I
have to play with it.  Unfortunately, there are people like you who
believe that in life you can just shuffle through the poker deck and
pick your own cards.

Did you pick yours?  Did you sit down, despite all natural urges, and
say, "I think I"ll be a straight boy" ???

- and while it is your personal right, it doesn't
- mean that it's morally correct or morally acceptable, which is the
- ONLY issue that's relevant on rec.scouting.

If morally correct (ack!!!!) or morally acceptable (double-ack!!!!) is
what you wanna discuss on rec.scouting, then I take issue with your
definition of both terms.  Therefore, again, it is relevant on your
precious rec.scouting.

- >And WHAT do you think has been forced on gays and lesbians in this
- >country? 

- They made their choice, and they're entitled to the protection of
- our laws, but what does that have to do with BSA and rec.scouting?

I was RESPONDING.  Besides, there is nothing about choice involved
here.  OH, but I've already said that (a billion f*cking times).

- >Heh.  If you succeed at curing your heterosexuality, let me know. 

- There's nothing to cure; it's consistent with our society's moral
- standards.  

So was (is?) racism.  So was (is?) sexism.  Slavery, too!  It's okay
to conform to "society's moral standards," even if it means being a bigot?

- Why should we want to cure it (but again, this is not
- appropriate for rec.scouting; it's a gay rights, not a BSA,
- issue).

Many boy scouts are gay, and people like you are telling them that
there's something about their being gay that makes them unfit to be scouts.

- >As a homosexual, I'm demanding the same rights bigots like you already
- >have.  If getting married, NOT being bashed, having the same financial
- >benefits as you constitute "behavior," then so be it.  

- And why is the above appropriate for rec.scouting?  BSA doesn't
- define "spouses", "survivors", or "dependents".
 
Once again, I was responding.  The post has BSA relevance, *even*if*
not 100% of it fits every newsgroup it's crossposted to.

Stan, this is not a world of absolutes.  Start discussing the issues
and quit hiding behind this illusion that we can just disagree and be
happy.

--
Andrew Werling   awerling@nmsu.edu   yip@rever.nmsu.edu
"Jesus is coming, look busy."
          --from a button I bought in an Albuquerque bookstore.
Newsgroups: alt.discrimination,chi.general,alt.atheism,alt.politics.homosexuality,rec.scouting