HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: higgins@fnalf.fnal.gov (Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey)
Newsgroups: sci.space
Subject: GEO coverage, aurorae (was Re: SPS fouling astronomy)
Date: 17 Aug 92 11:25:02 GMT
Organization: Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory

In article <1992Aug15.224819.15041@dartvax.dartmouth.edu>, Frederick.A.Ringwald@dartmouth.edu (Frederick A. Ringwald) writes:
> Trees could block objects near the horizon, but come to think of it,
> you'd have to be above latitude 82 degrees, which is more northerly 
> even than Point Barrow, to get completely away from the
> Con-Ed-stellation. GEO is about 6.6 Earth radii away, and 
> arctan(6.6) = 81.4 degrees (My thanks to Mike McCall from Rutgers 
> for pointing this out.); atmospheric refraction will give 
> another 34'.

This is the reason the youthful Arthur C. Clarke recommended three
geosynchronous comsats.  Two don't *quite* cover the world.
 
> And I never saw the aurora from Alaska; I saw it from Arizona. 
> (The famous 1989 March display: no kidding!)

I was in Texas that night (at a conference where I met Dennis Wingo),
and *could* have seen it, but nobody told me. :-(  The Tevatron
tripped mysteriously, but we haven't been able to pin that on the
magnetic storm-- the Tevatron trips mysteriously all the time.

There was a swell display visible from Chicago in March 1991, though. 
Nearly busted my dialing finger phoning everybody north of fortieth
parallel... Kalamazoo still hasn't forgiven me for waking them up on a
cloudy night.

Bill Higgins                      | "[Theatregoers], if they did not
                                  | happen to like the production,
Fermi National                    | had either to sit all through it
Accelerator Laboratory            | or else go home.  They probably
                                  | would have rejoiced at the ease 
                                  | of our Tele-Theaters, where we 
Internet:  HIGGINS@FNAL.FNAL.GOV  | can switch from one play to 
                                  | another in five seconds, until we 
SPAN/Hepnet:      43011::HIGGINS  | find the one that suits us best."
                                  | --Hugo Gernsback predicts
Bitnet:      HIGGINS@FNAL.BITNET  | Channel-Flipping in 
                                  | *Ralph 124C41+* (1912)
Newsgroups: sci.space
From: tomk@netcom.com (Thomas H. Kunich)
Subject: Re: Home made rockets
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 92 17:14:12 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
Distribution: world,local

In article <1992Aug19.234101.1@stsci.edu> hathaway@stsci.edu writes:
>into little brass containers, stick lead plugs in the ends for projectiles 
>and SELL the stuff to all sorts of people to use in things called "guns".  
>"(according to the U.S. General Accounting Office) 138,490 Americans 
>have been killed or wounded over the last 10 years by gun-wielding 
>_children_ under _six_ years of age."   Definitely Just Not Worth It.  

iMaybe you ought to distinguish between 'killed' and 'wounded'. I don't
believe you have the correct figures there.

Of course, you miught mention that 500,000 have _died_ over the
last 10 years in automobile accidents. Perhaps we ought ot simply
outlaw automobiles of all sorts because they cause deaths.

Newsgroups: sci.space,sci.astro
From: ralph.buttigieg@f635.n713.z3.fido.zeta.org.au (Ralph Buttigieg)
Newsgroups: sci.space
Subject: Re: SPS and light pollution
Date: 11 Aug 92 17:10:16 GMT
Organization: Fidonet. Gate admin is fido@socs.uts.edu.au

Original to: Wreck@Fmsrl7.Srl.Ford.Com
 to wreck@fmsrl7.srl.ford.com (R. Cage), via *IXgate 3:713/602

 w> Ground-based solar is available only during daylight, and has
 w> seriously reduced availability in the winter months at higher
 w> latitudes.  This requires long-distance transport or long-term
 w> energy storage, which would be real nice to have anyway; we
 w> don't.  SPS is there almost all the time, and its out-periods

 We don't have long-distance transport the same way we don't have
 a SPS system- no one has built one yet. There is a very serious scheme
  to build a world  wide power grid. Its proponents belive all
 the technology is already available. Superconductors would be nice, but
 not required.
 My sugestion is that the Space power people should look at this first.
 Microwave mirrors in Space could play a very important role in
 transcontinental electicity transmission.

 ta
 Ralph

--- Maximus 2.01wb
 * Origin: Vulcan's World-Sydney Australia 02 635-1204 (3:713/635)
Newsgroups: sci.space
From: cej2421@ultb.isc.rit.edu (C.E. Johnson )
Subject: Request: Sex in Space
Originator: cej2421@ultb
Organization: Rochester Institute of Technology
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 19:07:48 GMT

There was an article posted a few years ago dealing with experiments
on sex in space.  If anyone has a copy of this, please forward it to
my address. 

-- 
Carl E. Johnson                        'Tis not the drinking that is   
Rochester Institute of Technology       to be blamed, but the excess. 
carl@nick.csh.rit.edu                                   - John Selden
From: tjn32113@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Thomas J. Nugent)
Newsgroups: sci.space
Subject: Re: Beanstalks, Tethers - something I forgot to mention
Date: 13 Aug 92 20:18:29 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana

tjn32113@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Thomas J. Nugent) writes:

>Another possibility I forgot to mention along with space fountains was
>a variant of a launch loop.  You have, oh say six platforms above the
>Earth, moving such that they stay above the same point - but lower than
>GEO.  This normally can't happen, but if you have a huge "loop" around
>the Earth, of pellets, each of which sort of strikes each platform and
>bounces(??) in such a way as to maintain its altitude, and continue on to
>the next platform.  It's been awhile, so I don't remembert this in detail
>At some point, the pellets are boosted, to keep up their speed.  If anyone
>wants a better description, I could look up the info.  (I really should 
>know this, though.)

That was a really lousy description.  After a conversation last night, things
have been cleared up.  

The item I'm talking about is sometimes referred to as a "Jacob's  ladder".
Imagine a rope spinning fast enough that it maintains a circular shape.
Now imagine it big enough and fast enough so that it is "sitting" around
the Earth.  Now "hand" a platform on it in various places - the outward
force on the 'rope' due to its spinning will support a mass on it.  You
would of course want to balance masses on opposite sides of the planet and
have some station keeping devices in  use.  To keep the platforms above a
point on Earth, put the 'rope' in a polar orbit, then precess it (actually,
you might be able to have it in an inclined orbit and precess it) so that
it stays above the same places on Earth.  The rope is actually either a
huge metallic ribbon, or a series of pellets.  These are deflected 
electromagnetically to produce the supporting force on the platforms.

"The future is a race between education and catastrophe."
		- H.G. Wells 
-- 
"To be average scares the hell out of me." -- Anonymous
Tom Nugent		e-mail: tjn32113@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu
Newsgroups: sci.space
From: richard@csi.on.ca (Richard Martin)
Subject: Re: Seeding Mars with life
Organization: Carp Systems International, Kanata, ON
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 14:25:37 GMT

In article <9208120143.AA07834@cmr.ncsl.nist.gov> roberts@CMR.NCSL.NIST.GOV (John Roberts) writes:
>
>-From: knapp@spot.Colorado.EDU (David Knapp)
>-Subject: Re: Seeding Mars with life
>-Date: 11 Aug 92 15:38:58 GMT
>-Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
>-In article <20625@sbsvax.cs.uni-sb.de> dietz@cs.rochester.edu writes:
>->Even the "vent" organisms are exploiting the chemical gradient set up
>->by photosynthesis (they oxidize the reduced chemicals coming out of the
>->vents), and are therefore not completely geothermally powered.
>
>-The do not comsume photosythesized materials. (at least according to National
>-Geographic...)
>
>I think the point Paul's trying to make is that the organisms take advantage
>of oxidizing chemicals (perhaps oxygen among them) produced by photosynthetic
>life. I don't know enough on the subject to confirm or deny that. I have
>read that some bacteria get their energy by some chemical change in iron
>compounds, and that others get it by converting one sulfur compound to another,
>and it would be helpful if Paul would comment on whether both of these are
>tied in with compounds produced by photosynthesis.
>John Roberts
>roberts@cmr.ncsl.nist.gov
Please forgive me if I make any glaring errors, but I have read about a type
of bacteria which carries out anaerobic respiration.  I think it is more
dependent on sulphur than on Carbon, and I don't think it makes any complex
hydrocarbons.  These organisms developed on Earth, but were superseded by 
photosynthetic species.  They still exist, but I'm not sure where.
(What a mess of half-remembered rumours--Mrs. Bartle would kill me!)
Richard.
Newsgroups: sci.space
From: brettvs@hardy.u.washington.edu (Brett Vansteenwyk)
Subject: RE:  ... and other space development
Reply-To: brettvs@u.washington.edu
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Distribution: na
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1992 06:08:46 GMT

>Subject: SPS feasibility and other space development
>I heard some interesting news today.  The NASA Marshall Space Flight Center,
>the birthplace of our Saturn Class dreams has awoken the giant.  The only
>test stand in the West that was ever used to hold down a Saturn Class rocket
>for a full up test firing of the Saturn V first stage is about to rumble again!
>*************************************************************************
>Revive the Saturn V!
>*************************************************************************

This, along with the comment (I have forgotten the attribution here) "Everyone
knows what the ALS should eventually look like, a Saturn V clone" has me
wondering if this is somehow tied to ALS activities (like someone has actually
moved from paper chases to hardware).  Some of the questions I have here may
not be answerable if this is the early stage of some project, but in hopes of
starting a thread, here goes:

1.  Has anyone identified the most likely engine configurations possible with
a Saturn V clone ("ALS") launcher?  Do we intend to build the same giant, or
a smaller version with, say, a 3-engine configuration?  Is the design of an
F-1 so specific that it will only tolerate a 5-engine cluster (resonances and
the like).

2.  Are these the 1.5M lb generic F-1's or are they the 1.8M lb ones developed
not long before the development was halted?

3.  Is adapting tooling for building engines an easier job (more standard
parts?) than generating tooling for the rest of the launch vehicle?

4.  Will the costs of a Saturn V like vehicle actually come down if there were
a production line?  It seems true for various other rockets, but will there
be factors that will always require special care?

5.  Using an F-1 will imply a design philosophy that is variant with what has
prevailed in recent years.  It would seem that the vehicle has a whole booster
stage, and does not really depend on strap-ons.  Or---could you develop a
strap on booster with an F-1?

6.  How easy is it to refurbish a used F-1 considering that it burns RP-1?
If I remember right the high temperatures will crack the fuel into a gunk
that is tough to remove from the tubing.

7.  It sounds as if the intent right now is to be able to build the engine
now as it was built back then.  Is this a good idea?

		--Brett Van Steenwyk

Newsgroups: sci.space
From: aws@iti.org (Allen W. Sherzer)
Subject: Re:  Saturn dreams
Organization: Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 12:26:45 GMT

[Dennis writes about using F-1's for a series of vehicles from MLV to HLV]

>That is the reason that is backed up by the same market dynamics that Allen
>pursues.  

Not quite the same Dennis, your only going half way. You are using existing
technology and continuous improvment to reduce cost but your still having
the govenrment pick the winner.

If your approach is actually cheaper then in a free market somebody will
do it.

>My only argument with Allen is that the HL Delta and Atlas is
>fundamentally limited to his next step.  

Actually that is only because I only view them as interm verhicles. We
could use them until the SSTO concept works. There seems little doubt
that the technology needed for SSTO is either here now or we are only
a few % away in terms of materials and engines.

   Allen

-- 
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Allen W. Sherzer | "If they can put a man on the Moon, why can't they     |
|  aws@iti.org     |  put a man on the Moon?"                               |
+----------------------246 DAYS TO FIRST FLIGHT OF DCX----------------------+
From: gary@ke4zv.uucp (Gary Coffman)
Newsgroups: sci.space
Subject: Re: NASA statement on Earth Data System proposals [NTE 92-71] (Forwarded)
Date: 15 Aug 92 16:20:25 GMT
Reply-To: gary@ke4zv.UUCP (Gary Coffman)
Organization: Gannett Technologies Group

In article <===yk+h@rpi.edu> strider@acm.rpi.edu (Greg Moore) writes:
>In article <1992Aug13.043115.27308@news.arc.nasa.gov> yee@trident.arc.nasa.gov (Peter E. Yee) writes:
>	[stuff deleted for brevity's sake and Mike's sake]
>
>>	As prescribed by NASA source selection regulations, 
>>the evaluation of proposals included a "most probable 
>>cost" analysis of each proposal as reflected in the 
>>"best and final offers" submitted by the offerers.  
>>Despite NASA's repeated attempts during the solicitation 
>>and evaluation processes to encourage the submission of 
>>realistic cost estimates, the government's analysis 
>>clearly indicates that the offerers significantly 
>>underestimated the cost of the respective technical 
>>approaches.  Accordingly, NASA is unwilling to select an 
>>offerer for further negotiations leading to award of a 
>>contract.
>>
>	Now, am I reading this right?  Every submitter said they 
>could do it for around $X and NASA and the government is saying,
>oh no... you can't do it for $X, it's a lot more than that!  Until
>you say it will cost more we won't award the bid.
>
>	It seems to me that if EVERY contractor said they could do
>it cheaper than the government says it will cost, maybe the 
>contractors know something?  After all, I'm sur they are in there
>to make money, not lose it.
>
>	I can understand if one company was way low.  In that case,
>sure you probably don't want to go with the lowest bidder.  But if
>EVERY company is way low? Come on.
>
>So, please, if I'm misunderstanding this, please let me know why
>the goverment wants to spend more money?
>(And no, the answer is not that every company is using Soyuz. :-)

A thorny problem the government faces in all cost plus development
contracts is the practice of low balling the original figure then
jacking up costs as the program progresses. With a cost plus deal
a company can't lose at this game. NASA has decided in this case
that it doesn't want to play the escalation game and get embarressed
in fromt of Congress yet again when huge cost overruns appear down
the road. They're telling the bidders that their lies are too blatent
this time and NASA isn't going to play.

They could put the project out as a fixed price procurement, but that's
risky in a developmental project. They could end up paying out a lot of
progress payments and not wind up with a system that met their needs.

Gary
From: jg90@castle.ed.ac.uk (J Gourlay)
Newsgroups: sci.space
Subject: Educational Information
Keywords: Educational Info Schools Sources Help
Date: 13 Aug 92 14:11:53 GMT
Distribution: sci
Organization: Edinburgh University

I was wondering if anyone could help out a friend of mine. She is a
school teacher about to embark upon a SPACE project with her pupils and
was wondering if any organisations out there had school information
packs which they sent out free to interested schools. Ideally such
information should be targeted at the 8 to 10 year old age group and it
will be used by all of the school eventually. If anyone can help out
e-mail me or put my address for correspondance to the relative
department.
             Thanks in advance,
                     James Gourlay
                     Dept. of Physics
                     University of Edinburgh
                     Kings Buildings
                     Mayfield Road
                     Edinburgh
                     U.K.
                     (jg90@uk.ac.ed.castle)
From: ruca@pinkie.saber-si.pt (Rui Sousa)
Newsgroups: sci.space
Subject: Re: Deep-sea Diving on Europa
Date: 19 Aug 92 13:05:03 GMT
Organization: SABER - Sistemas de Informacao, Lda.

In article <memo.578693@cix.compulink.co.uk> sbirkett@cix.compulink.co.uk (Stuart Birkett) writes:
Path: pinkie!dec4pt.puug.pt!inesc.inesc.pt!mcsun!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!usc!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!eff!ibmpcug!pipex!demon!cix.compulink.co.uk!sbirkett
   Newsgroups: sci.space
   From: sbirkett@cix.compulink.co.uk (Stuart Birkett)
   Reply-To: sbirkett@cix.compulink.co.uk
   Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1992 18:25:09 +0000
   Sender: usenet@gate.demon.co.uk
   Lines: 13


>      Marc Barrett writes.......


>     > Many scientists and science fiction writers have speculated
>     > about the possibility of life in the depths of the oceans on
>     > Europa.

>   What are the oceans of Europa composed of?

>   Stuart......

Mostly water, based on what the Voyagers have seen on Europa's surface
(water ice). The ice crust should be a couple of kilometers thick, so
explorers should look for cracks or they would have to dig a lot... :-)

Rui Sousa
-- 
*** Infinity is at hand!                               Rui Sousa
*** If yours is big enough, grab it!                   ruca@saber-si.pt

                All opinions expressed here are strictly my own
From: ccoprmd@prism.gatech.EDU (Matthew DeLuca)
Newsgroups: sci.space
Subject: Re: Energiya's role in Space Station assem
Date: 14 Aug 92 12:56:20 GMT
Organization: The Dorsai Grey Captains

In article <1992Aug14.123208.13141@iti.org> aws@iti.org (Allen W. Sherzer) writes:
>In article <1992Aug13.225903.5705@ke4zv.uucp> gary@ke4zv.UUCP (Gary Coffman) writes:

>>Name *one* major military procurement that
>>proceeded on a fixed price basis with *no* adjustments. 

>The ATF prototype
>LACE
>RME
>DC-X

We've procured DC-X's already?  How did the first launch go?

(For the sarcasm impaired: these aren't procurements.)
-- 
Matthew DeLuca                      "I'd hire the Dorsai, if I knew their 
Georgia Institute of Technology      P.O. box."
Office of Information Technology                - Zebediah Carter, 
Internet: ccoprmd@prism.gatech.edu              _The Number of the Beast_
From: cecil@physics.unc.edu (Gerald Cecil)
Newsgroups: sci.space
Subject: Re: With telepresence, who needs people in orbit?
Date: 21 Aug 92 15:26:13 GMT
Reply-To: cecil@physics.unc.edu
Organization: University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.

In article 14146@iti.org, aws@iti.org (Allen W. Sherzer) writes:
>If and when we ever get it, come back and ask us again. For myself,
>I will juge it to be here when you allow a surgeon to do a heart bypass
>on you by teleoperation with a 1/10 second delay. If you live, we can
>talk about it
If we restricted ourselves to things that exist, this newsgroup would be
pretty thin.  What *will* the crew of SSF be doing, other than keeping
themselves alive (& putting rats into centrifuges)?  Are there NASA
plans for teleoperation of SSF before permanent occupation?
---
Gerald Cecil 919-962-7169  Dept. Physics & Astronomy
U of North Carolina, Chapel Hill, NC 27599-3255 USA
-- Intelligence is believing only half of what you read; brilliance is 
   knowing which half. ** Be terse: each line on the Net costs $10 **
From: eder@hsvaic.boeing.com (Dani Eder)
Newsgroups: sci.space
Subject: Re: SPS feasibility / Astrophysical Engineering
Date: 18 Aug 92 14:04:26 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Boeing AI Center, Huntsville, AL

gary@ke4zv.uucp (Gary Coffman) writes:

>Numbers could be 2X either way. That's still a near *planetary* body
>we're talking about plating with solar cells in any case. That's so
>unreal I'm surprised *anyone* would seriously consider it.

I'm working on a book that discusses DISMANTLING planetary bodies
(and rebuilding them more to our liking, sigh - all that wasted
mass inside planets doing nothing more useful than holding
atmospheres down, sheesh what poor design).

(1) The energy required to dismantle a planet is 0.6Mgr, where
M is the mass, g is the surface gravity, and r is the radius.

(2) If we calculate the amount of solar energy falling on a
planetary body, and relate it to the disassembly energy, we can
derive a natural time constant: how long will it take to dismantle
a planet using the sunlight falling on an area the size of the
planet?

In the case of the Moon and Mercury they both come to around 300,000
years.

Of course, there is no reason you have to be limited to the
physical area of the planet.  If you surround the Moon with a
cloud of SPSs extending 20,000 km in radius with an optical density
(area fill factor) of 10%, then you have 14 times the energy, and
the disassembly time drops to 22,000 years.

If you are really in a hurry, consider the following: Long tether
based mining conveyors.  They scoop up material from the Lunar
surface and lift it to high altitudes, where it is sent off to
wherever you wanted the stuff.  The upper ends are not bound
by the surface area of the Moon, and have much greater radiating
area.  Let us say that the upper ends function as heat engines
with a rejection temperature of 1000K.  If your thermal cycles are
40% efficient, then you can genrate nearly 30 suns of power
to run the conveyors.  If the collecting area of the upper
ends of the tethers amounts to 100 times the area of the Moon,
then we have a total power available of 3000 times the solar
constant per unit area of the Moon, and the disassembly time is
on the order of 100 years (at 100% efficiency).

Methods of disassembly include:

(1) Large body impact

Messy, but quick.  Don't let the pieces re-coalesce into a body
again.

(2) Big bomb(s)

Again, messy.

(3) Spin up to orbital speed.

You collect stuff off the equator that is now orbital.

(4) Boiloff

Good for removing pesky atmospheres, takes longer to evaporate
planet.  Use lots of concentrated sunlight

(5) Mining

Mass drivers, tethers, etc.


For those who are wondering why I am considering such stuff --
Understanding how such large scale engineering might be done can
tell us what to look for around other stars in the search for
life in the Universe.  

Dani

-- 
Dani Eder/Boeing/Advanced Civil Space/(205)464-2697(w)/232-7467(h)/
Rt.1, Box 188-2, Athens AL 35611/Member: Space Studies Institute
Physical Location: 34deg 37' N 86deg 43' W +100m alt.
***THE ABOVE IS NOT THE OPINION OF THE BOEING COMPANY OR ITS MANAGEMENT.***
Newsgroups: sci.space