From: thietaniemi@cc.helsinki.fi
Subject: Re: More about bilingualism (Was: Baltic Russian-speakers
Organization: University of Helsinki
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 17:01:03 GMT

In article <1992Dec15.103608.3852@cs.chalmers.se>, tammet@cs.chalmers.se 
(Tanel Tammet) writes:
> In article <1992Dec14.143832.1@cc.helsinki.fi> thietaniemi@cc.helsinki.fi 
writes:
>>In article <1992Dec14.094708.16043@cs.chalmers.se>, tammet@cs.chalmers.se 
(Tanel Tammet) writes:
>>> In article <1992Dec13.232817.20011@enea.se> sommar@enea.se 
(Erland Sommarskog) writes:
>>>>Tanel Tammet (tammet@cs.chalmers.se) writes:


>>> Now my point in rejecting the bilingualism of the Finnish model is that
>>> total official bilingualism with Estonian and Russian, so that official
>>> documents have to be also filled in Russian, will be considered absolutely
>>> unacceptable by over 90% of the Estonian citizens. 
>>
>>Sorry, here we have a deep disagreement. Deep in my heart I think
>>that the bulk of Estonian citizens (if your estimation is correct)
>>is reactionary in this respect. And the documents SHOULD NOT BE FILLED
>>in Russian, the point is that they COULD ALSO BE FILLED in Russian
>>(a normal procedure in bilingual countries like Finland: there
>>are Finnish and Swedish and bilingual blank forms).
> 
> I would probably agree to that in cities on the eastern border which
> have been made predominantly Russian, like in Narva and Sillama"e,
> there were the option of filling all documents either in Estonian,
> Russian, or both.


And in Kohtla-Ja"rve, perhaps the most polluted town in Northern Europe.


>>> The existence of independent Estonia and the Estonian culture
>>> as a whole associates directly with the language.
>>
>>
>>Exactly. As that of the Finnish culture. Still, we are bilingual.
> 
> I am not certain about the meaning of "bilingual", except as given
> by law. When speaking about the widespread linguistic capabilities
> of people, there are more languages that two in Finnish and Estonian
> bilingualism. I expect that in Finland English is not spoken much
> worse than Swedish :-). 


I think that according to statistics, only 10-15% of Finns speak
both tongues fluently. Estonians should be more bilingual in this
respect, especially the men that have served in CA.

*********************Non-indo-european on*************************
SUOMESSA PUHUTAAN (inte enbart) SUOMEA!
*********************Non-indo-european off************************

>>> that, say, if 
>>> foreign passports in Estonia were to be filled both in Estonian and Russian,
>>> I'd maybe consider dropping Estonian citizenship. 
>>
>>Are you serious? Or maybe here is a misunderstanding: would you consider
>>dropping Estonian citizenship if foreign passports COULD BE FILLED
>>in Estonian and in Russian and the there were three languages printed in
>>the passports: Estonian - Russian - English?
> 
> I am more or less serious. I meant the hypothetic case where passports
> SHOULD be filled in both Estonian and Russian, with Cyrillic letters
> and all.
> 	
> Probably I would not want to be a citizen of such Estonia.
> 
> To me it would mean not bilingualism, but the first successful steps of
> real Russian domination in Estonia, with the predictable consequences
> in few centuries. There is an incredible difference between the
> expansionistic capabilities of Russia and Sweden, just look at the map.
> I am russophobic, defined as "afraid of the country called Russia", feeling
> insecure about Russian politics in the near and far future. 


Personally I am not RUSSOphobic, but russoANARCHOphobic, but I do understand
what you mean.


<deleted>

>>> I agree that this
>>> is perhaps unexpected to the outsiders 
>>
>>You are right! It is very difficult to legitimize such a feeling
>>in nowadays Europe.
> 
> What do you mean by "legitimization"? That it cannot have analogies?
> That it is against any international norms? That it is immoral?
> Notice that the objection is specifically against Russian, NOT against,
> say, English, German or French, etc.

It has analogies, but more "European" way of living is represented
by countries like quadrolingual Switzerland, bilingual Belgium,
Luxembourg and Finland.

And the great question of our generation is: how can the Russians
accept that they will be living "abroad", with the fear of some
Russians to be moved za granitsu. Russian bilingualism in some
neighbouring states might help the Russians to accept the new
situation.

 
> Of course I am against the United States of Europe, with
> the common citizenship, absolutely free movement of people and the
> central European authorities. 
>  
> It is an incredibly optimistic, oversimplified idea.


In this form it is oversimplified. Personally, I am FOR strong
European integration (even stronger than the Maastricht treaty,
which seems to be unsuccesful, unfortunately.:-(


> Just look at the weirdly strong reactions against the very few coloured
> people there are in Finland, with regular attacks against black asylum-seekers.

Hold it, there are no REGULAR attacks in Finland against the asylum-
seekers (as in Sweden) and no ethnic violence as mass phenomen (as
in Germany). But I am deeply pessimistic in this respect. There
will be: one generation will be lost with unemployment... :-(


> Fortunately there seem to be no analogous anti-foreign attitudes in Estonia. 


You are right indeed: in this respect Estonia is surprisingly clean!


> The arguments were mainly there to show that imaging full official
> Estonian - Russian bilingualism in Estonia is unrealistic.
> 
> Of course I can give further argumentation about what are the
> reasons and motives for that (basically that estonians would feel
> absolutely unsecure about the fate of the whole estonian state, culture
> and language), but this would be long. 


Well, if it doesn't destroy the work you are doing, I would love
to read your reflections on this subject. 

This antipathy against bilingualism is something that I just can't
understand in Estonia. There are other similar cultural features
that I find irritating: the attitude of Estonian men towards
women (Women's lib has lots to do in Estonia) and the Students'
Unions in Tartu/Dorpat, which resemble much of German Burschenschaften
I witnessed in Heidelberg. At least in Germany, they were centers
of reactionary activities.

thinks
the observer
Tapani Hietaniemi, Universitas Helsingiensis
                   urbs fennorum

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