HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: seann@igor.tamri.com (Sean Nelson)
Subject: Re: health care industry woes
Organization: Toshiba America MRI Inc, S. San Francisco, CA.
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 92 18:56:15 GMT

It used to be that hospitals were run by churches, charities, cities
and so forth. This system seemed to be primarily concerned with fixing
people and less obsessed with $. Now that the dreaded villains LegalMan
and Mr. NumbersRacket have invaded the arena to make as much of a killing
as they can, the cost to society and Joe Consumer in particular have gone
through several roofs : IN LITIGATION AND BUREAUCRATIC SMOKESCREENS WE TRUST.

Nothing of real value is produced by these activities. Nobody is healed
any more quickly, nothing is done more efficiently. A truly ethical medical
examining board (!= AMA) would clearly have a more positive effect on the
standards of medicine practised than several cadres of self serving lawyers.

The Insurance companies are busy making $ from misery while contributing
nothing at best. This is the very definition of immorality. It is also
highly inefficient.

Look at the billing system they have instituted : a) Go to the
Doctor. Present Insurance card. b) Receive Service. c) Get bill from
Doctor. d) Ignore bill from doctor till e) insurance statement arrives,
e) wait till second bill from doctor arives and finally f) pay doctor.
When purchasing insurance the combination of LegalMan & Mr. NumbersRacket
is creating a contract so full of small print, exclusions, provisions, riders
and so forth that it is becoming increasingly difficult for any of us to know
exactly what it is we are actually paying for.

This is NOT an area which is well suited to the profit motive.
Yes, this is rapidly becoming an ad for Kaiser, who are break even.

Providing goods at a profit to this arena does seem reasonbile idea.

And yes, I will admit that this last statement is somewhat self serving,
as I work for an MRI manufacturer. Admittedly, it makes not the slightest
difference to me if the business is break even or profit, so long as I
still have a job. Oh, yes, in reply t an earlier poster who suggested
that MRI machines become obsolete in a number of months : This is unadulterated
rubbish. Machines which we put in place several yaers ago are still producing
perefectly acceptable diagnostic images. This is true of all the other MRI
developers /manufacturers I know of. The newer machines do more in a shorter
time, but the older ones still work just fine.

Later .. . . .



-- 
Sean Nelson,  		
Toshiba America MRI	  What Me Worry ?
seann@igor.tamri.com
From: gld@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Gary L Dare)
Subject: Re: health care industry woes
Reply-To: gld@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Gary L Dare)
Organization: The Bates Motel
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 17:03:19 GMT

amichiel@rodan.acs.syr.edu (Allen J Michielsen) writes:
> ...
>on the 4th set (still unknown to her) and she was informed.  However, the
>Canadian system went back and has disallowed all coverage for treatment. 
>The cancer was so big, she is being punished for not getting earlier treatment.
>The hospital says they told her about the 3 earlier lumps, but there is no
>mention of it in her files, just a reference to the films being taken, and
>followup call to patient.  Nobody in Toronto wants to treat her, the 
>government won't pay, and she doesn't have other insurance...

The Canadian papers are very anti-government and salivate over stories
like this since our coverage is supposed to be no-cut.  I'd advise you
to have your friend call the Globe & Mail, the Toronto Star or (esp.)
the Toronto Sun (a very populist and muckraking tabloid a la the New
York Post).  However, I would caution that many times that reporters
have checked out these possible prize-winning pieces, they break down
in the face of hypochondria, etc.  Not that I'm saying that at all for
your friend, but this is page 1 news for any part of Canada, especially
Ontario which is are biggest and richest province.

>Sick canadians near the borders come over in droves for american treatment.

A lot of Canadians who live near the border are also further from any
of our major cities or towns.  Most of them are told to go to a nearby
American facility and spend their insurance there; OHIP has numerous
arrangements with places in New York State and Michigan.  Most of those
people are in areas too far from Toronto, and too sparsely populated to
support the investment of a private practicioner.

gld
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Je me souviens ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Gary L. Dare				Jesus Saves!
> gld@cunixd.cc.columbia.EDU 		Gretzky gets the rebound -
> gld@cunixc.BITNET			he shoots, he scores!
Newsgroups: talk.politics.medicine
From: starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Tim Starr)
Subject: Re: health care industry woes
Organization: UDel, School of Life & Health Sciences
Distribution: usa
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1992 06:58:59 GMT

In article <1992Nov21.190412.3717@news.columbia.edu> gld@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Gary L Dare) writes:
}
}In terms of the way the hospitals operate (I am only familiar with
}Mount Sinai Toronto and St. Boniface in Winnipeg) as well as our
}universities, let's say that they are "de facto" private.

Let's forget operations for a moment.  Who owns Canada's public hospitals?

}(-;).  So those hospitals and universities get public money, but they
}are autonomous.  Our PBS, the CBC and SRC (French), are also publicly-
}funded but autonomous ... considering how often they have dropped the
}drawers of the government-of-the-day federally or provincially, they'd
}need that safeguard to survive

This isn't autonomy!  That's like saying that welfare recipients residing in
public housing projects are autonomous because they're allowed to spend their
dole almost any way they want.  PBS has been a consistent critic of the
government, especially under the Reagan and Bush administrations, yet they
differ greatly from more autonomous networks.  PBS has the lowest staff
mobility, for instance.

Tim Starr - Renaissance Now! - Think Universally, Act Selfishly
starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu

"True greatness consists in the use of a powerful understanding to enlighten
oneself and others." - Voltaire
From: rkaplan@netcom.com (Richard Kaplan)
Subject: Re: Repealing medical licensure laws
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 02:28:44 GMT

In article <By519o.AnI@max.physics.sunysb.edu> sbpress@engws3
 (The Stony Brook Press) writes:

>I think that part of the problem is that the orthodox medicine does
>not acknowledge the fact that there is data to support alternative
>therapies, and go against some traditional therapies like chemotherapy.

To some extent you are correct, and it is unfortunately true
that "orthodox" medicine in 1992 tends to perhaps be too
conservative, traditional, and non-open minded.  However,
this is changing -- witness the increasing role accupuncture
is playing in "orthodox" medicine for chronic pain.

However, many homeopaths and other non-traditional medical
practitioners will take a small bit of "scientific" data
and then use this information to distort their abilities.
For example, though accupuncture may work for pain
in some cases, there certainly is no reasonable data to suggest
it works for asthma -- and if we were to allow accupuncture
to be more widly practiced by non-licensed practitioners,
we might see children with respiratory disease severely
mistreated.

If there is some specific non-orthodox medical treatment
which you feel (based upon objective evidence) should
be taken more seriously by orthodox medicine, please
share them with the net.
-- 
Richard Kaplan M.D.           Medical Software Exchange BBS
806 2nd St. SW # 104          (507) 281-1989 14,400 HST
Rochester, MN  55902          (507) 281-1689 Voice
PP-ASEL-IA     N4VRB          rkaplan@mayo.edu|netcom.netcom.com
From: gld@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Gary L Dare)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.medicine
Subject: Re: health care industry woes
Date: 21 Nov 92 20:24:02 GMT
Reply-To: gld@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Gary L Dare)
Distribution: usa
Organization: The Bates Motel

starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Tim Starr) writes:
>gld@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Gary L Dare) writes:
>}
>}This now becomes a matter of definitions ... while we have no hospital
>}corporations like Humana, all or most hospitals have great autonomy.
>}Like universities, they get a basic operating budget and collect fees
>}for services rendered.
>
>This is quite strange to me.  It's like saying that the University of
>California is private, when its a creature of the State, pure and simple.

I hate to nitpick here, but isn't the University of California at
least autonomous?  It is run by the Regents of U of C and collects
some pretty heft tuition with a lower in-state residents rate that
is subsidized publicly.  I don't know whether they get any basic
facilities budget, maybe I'll ask their VLSI CAD tools people next
time in case they know (I have irregular contact with them).  Much
of the money to establish U of C was probably public, but certainly
there would be private philanthropy involved there somewhere.  But
I do see the point that you're trying to make ... if just one penny;
but, that makes Columbia a "creature of the State" since we get cash
grants/funds/etc. outright and annually from New York State.

gld
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Je me souviens ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Gary L. Dare				Jesus Saves!
> gld@cunixd.cc.columbia.EDU 		Gretzky gets the rebound -
> gld@cunixc.BITNET			he shoots, he scores!
From: arosen@oregon.uoregon.edu (Ava Rosenblum)
Subject: When will something be posted?
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: University of Oregon
Date: 16 Nov 1992 19:09 PST  





Hi,  I am awaiting this new newsgroup with interest. When will an article be
posted?

			Ava R.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.medicine
From: delisle@eskimo.com (Ben Delisle)
Subject: newgroup talk.politics.medicine
Organization: -> ESKIMO NORTH (206) For-Ever <-
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 23:17:43 GMT

	From the Control message sent from uunet.

talk.politics.medicine is an unmoderated newsgroup which passed its vote for
creation by 137:26 as reported in news.announce.newgroups on 2 Nov 1992.

For your newsgroups file:
talk.politics.medicine	The politics and ethics involved with health care.

The charter, culled from the call for votes:

A newsgroup to discuss politics and ethics in medicine and related
sciences and fields. Topics may include discussions on whether:
medical care should be socialized; insurance be paid for by the
individual, the company, or the state; or if it is even mandatory.
They may also include discussions on ethics of cross-species transplants;
if fetal material should be used or not; government intervention  
into the health care choices of people (such as permitting (or not)
alternative medicine to coexist with mainstream medicine, nutritional
medicine, or preventive medicine); parental or individual (non)consent to
mandatory immunization or treatment that may violate ethical or religious
beliefs; euthanasia for terminal, vegetative, or severely crippled people,
be it voluntary or non voluntary; and the right to help or refuse care to
patients based on ability to pay, ability to help or care for them, or
based on any disease they may be carrying; or any other related topics.
From: rkaplan@netcom.com (Richard Kaplan)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.medicine
Subject: Re: Medical Insurance and Cost Efficency
Date: 24 Nov 92 02:10:46 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)

In article <By6t6B.FIG@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu
 (Herman Rubin) writes:

>add up.  Also, primary care physicians must have diagnosticians, not
>the present specialists, to fall back on.  These need not even be 
>physicians, but thinkers.  Thinking is greatly discouraged in our
>present society; medical plans seem to pay only for actions.

Here you are 100% correct.  Reimbursement for action
instead of thinking is at the root of a great deal of
the problems we have with our medical system today.
It's a shame that so many people recognize and agree
with this, yet nothing constructive is done about it.
Medicare's RBRVS system was a feeble and ineffective
attempt at this.
-- 
Richard Kaplan M.D.           Medical Software Exchange BBS
806 2nd St. SW # 104          (507) 281-1989 14,400 HST
Rochester, MN  55902          (507) 281-1689 Voice
PP-ASEL-IA     N4VRB          rkaplan@mayo.edu|netcom.netcom.com
From: hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin)
Subject: Re: What's the state of the art in computer simulation?
Organization: Purdue University Statistics Department
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 20:03:35 GMT

In article <By1ppp.F5y@acsu.buffalo.edu> v128pvry@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Christophe A Stoner) writes:
>In article <1992Nov17.172802.23906@access.usask.ca>, choy@skorpio.usask.ca (I am a terminator.) writes...
>>Can computer simulations reduce the amount of testing medical
>>procedures, drug usage, etc. on live subjects? There must be
>>difficulties in convincing the general public that a computer
>>can replace testing altogether, let along in getting such a
>>computer to run, but testing is expensive, time consuming, and
>>arduous. Computers might be used to decrease the testing
>>workload.



>The concept of computerized medical analysis of drugs is to improbable
>to be practical. The sheer amount of variables in an organism makes
>a computer simulation impractical. The  limitations on a computer,
>both memory space and CPU speed, make it only possible for the largest
>computers to simulate the simplest biological functions. The central
>problem is that biologist, and programers, do not fully understand all
>the variables in a single cell let alone the entire human body. Before
>we can do away with live test we must first be able to understand the
>minutest detail of the human body. The best computers can do, in my 
>opinion, is provide essential breakdown of data retrived from tests
>and decrease the time it normally takes to test/market a new drug.

I doubt that we will ever be able to completely eliminate testing on
live subjects, and not even on human subjects.  Computers can help far
more than Mr. Stoner believes; there are times that they are good enough
for many purposes even though they might not be able to simulate the 
biological functions.  We were doing a fairly good job of predicting
weather before the present quite poor simulations of global weather
became possible in real time, and we are still doing it more-or-less
the old-fashioned way.

There are other things which computers can do, but artificial intelligence
is not likely to be reached in the foreseeable future.
-- 
Herman Rubin, Dept. of Statistics, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette IN47907-1399
Phone: (317)494-6054
hrubin@snap.stat.purdue.edu (Internet, bitnet)  
{purdue,pur-ee}!snap.stat!hrubin(UUCP)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.medicine
From: carruth@mksol.dseg.ti.com (matthew carruth)
Subject: Re: An Approach to National Health Care
Keywords: entitlement national health care
Organization: internet
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 22:46:45 GMT

An interesting idea.  Would the accounts be free to earn interest? Otherwise 
they would be subject to taxation via inflation.

Why not put a million into it and let it be used for anything.  This would
allow everybod to retire young.  The governmet spends about $4000 per
person per year now.  The idea of a pension is not so radical....
-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My views are my own and do not reflect those of my employeers....
From: RSE32195@VAX1.UTULSA.EDU
Newsgroups: talk.politics.medicine
Subject: Clinton's health care plan
Date: 17 Nov 1992 14:11:34 -0600
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu


Would someone please send me a copy of Clinton's health care plan/proposal?
I have seen it posted before but didn't save it.

Thanks!  

Stefan Radloff
University of Tulsa
rse32195@vax1.utulsa.edu
From: v128pvry@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Christophe A Stoner)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.medicine
Subject: Re: Medical Insurance and Cost Efficency
Date: 21 Nov 92 18:29:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <1992Nov21.125630.136@genie.slhs.udel.edu>, starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Tim Starr) writes...
>I wouldn't contest the claim that an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of
>cure, but I don't think that the fastest-rising area of health care costs in
>the USA is what you cite, but rather administrative costs, which Milton
>Friedman (probably among others) has correlated with Medicare/Medicaid.  It
>follows Gammon's Law, that government involvement tends to increase the
>amount of paperwork too much (as I mangle it in paraphrase).
> 
>I also see sings of greater awareness of general health, yet our costs are
>still skyrocketing.
> 
I agree that the good deal of time and effort of valuble medical professionals
is wasted on the buracuracy of running a major medical center. In an attempt
to eliminate a few individuals who would defraud insurance companies, 
governmental or coorperative, the government has enabled measures that 
consume an inordinate amount of time. A doctor should not have to spend time
filling out insurance vouchers and other such nonsense when he could be
dovoting his time to the care for his patients and/or conducting ungoing
research.

		-Chris Stoner
Newsgroups: talk.politics.medicine
From: rkaplan@netcom.com (Richard Kaplan)
Subject: Re: Health Care & Malpractice
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 01:24:28 GMT

In article <1992Nov18.175202.25356@vexcel.com> dean@vexcel.com
 (Dean Alaska) writes:

>Are there any statistics that actually show whether malpractice is a
>significant part of medical expense in the U.S?  It would interesting to
>know just how much money is awarded for malpractice suits, whether

Far costlier than malpractice premiums are the fees a patient
pays when a doctor must practice defensive medicine and
order extra tests.  Unfortunately, the standard for medical 
malpractice is defined in the courtroom, ex post facto.






-- 
Richard Kaplan M.D.           Medical Software Exchange BBS
806 2nd St. SW # 104          (507) 281-1989 14,400 HST
Rochester, MN  55902          (507) 281-1689 Voice
PP-ASEL-IA     N4VRB          rkaplan@mayo.edu|netcom.netcom.com  
Newsgroups: talk.politics.medicine
From: danwell@IASTATE.EDU (Daniel A Ashlock)
Subject: Re: What's the state of the art in computer simulation?
Reply-To: danwell@IASTATE.EDU (Daniel A Ashlock)
Organization: Iowa State University
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 15:45:48 GMT

In article <1992Nov17.172802.23906@access.usask.ca>, choy@skorpio.usask.ca (I am
a terminator.) writes:
> Can computer simulations reduce the amount of testing medical
> procedures, drug usage, etc. on live subjects? There must be
> difficulties in convincing the general public that a computer
> can replace testing altogether, let along in getting such a
> computer to run, but testing is expensive, time consuming, and
> arduous. Computers might be used to decrease the testing
> workload.

   In order to do this the computer would need a relatively good model 
of the biochemistry of the spiecies to be drugged (and the spiecies
to be executed, if the drug kills parasites).  The computer that can
hold such a model may not exist yet.  The software know-how to build
the model, let alone get it to run in less that a millenium don't
even remotely exist yet.

   A person who could do that level of modeling could cure cancer or AIDS
without breaking a sweat; he would have to know that much about biochemistry.  

> 
> Henry Choy
> choy@cs.usask.ca

Dan
Danwell@IASTATE.EDU
Newsgroups: talk.politics.medicine
From: jstewart@alfred.carleton.ca (John Stewart)
Subject: Re: health care industry woes
Organization: Carleton University
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 15:09:09 GMT

In <1992Nov19.104730.24485@genie.slhs.udel.edu> starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Tim Starr) writes:

>In article <1ebbl2INNlu1@agate.berkeley.edu> sherw@ocf.berkeley.edu (Gregory Sherwin) writes
>}In an independent study comparing a Canadian hospital with an American one -
>}where there was approximate equivalence in skilled staff, specialization,
>}equipment, etc.  For handling just insurance FORMS, the Canadian hospital
>}had an office with 4 full-time staff members.  In the U.S. hospital - of
>}equivalent size as the Canadian one - they had dedicated an entire BUILDING
>}with 300 full-time employees to just paper pushing for the various
>}insurance companies.

>One possible contributing factor to this would be the fact that the government
>has "sovereign immunity" from liability, which cuts down the amount of
>malpractice suits it has to face when it coercively monopolizes medicine.

Governments in Canada are not immune from liability, they can be taken to
court just like any other organization/individual.  In the case of medical
malpractice, it would be the doctor and/or hospital that would be sued.
In general, liability is much less of a problem in Canada than it is in the
US.

>  Health
>care in England and Canada, where they have national health insurance, is
>rationed by line: people have to hurry up and wait in line to get any.

>This is why there's an "underground railroad" for Canadians in need of
>immediate treatment to get it in the States.

I've seen no evidence that Canadians in need of immediate treatment were
forced to wait in line.  There are waiting lists for some forms of elective
surgery, for example heart bypass operations.
-- 
John Stewart -- Computing and Communications Services, Carleton University
Internet: jstewart@ccs.carleton.ca or Mr.Canoehead@algonquin.carleton.ca  
"The average middle income family with two parents and children pays $2,945
more in Federal taxes than they would have under the tax policies in place
before the Tories first came to power in 1984."
Newsgroups: talk.politics.medicine
From: starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Tim Starr)
Subject: Re: health care industry woes
Organization: UDel, School of Life & Health Sciences
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 10:51:15 GMT

In article <1992Nov17.210153.27422@u.washington.edu> roth@math.washington.edu (John Roth) writes:
}Those who say we need more GP's must put forward some acceptable alternative
}to fee-for-service.  And sell this alternative to providers, payers and those 
}who believe doctors are not to be trusted.  Anyone seen such a proposal?

Why must we provide this?  Why must we have the government mandate a one-
size-fits-all policy for medical pricing?  Why not leave it up to the parties
to the contract, the providers, payers, etc.?  What business is it of the
government's to meddle with this?


Tim Starr - Renaissance Now! - Think Universally, Act Selfishly
starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu

"True greatness consists in the use of a powerful understanding to enlighten
oneself and others." - Voltaire
Newsgroups: talk.politics.medicine
From: starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Tim Starr)
Subject: Re: health care industry woes
Organization: UDel, School of Life & Health Sciences
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 10:13:33 GMT

In article <1992Nov18.210922.25246@aio.jsc.nasa.gov> hack@arabia.uucp (Edmund Hack) writes:
}I can't let this bit of folklore go unchallenged.  The American Medical
}Assn. has no direct control of medical licencing, medical education or
}any other aspect of medical practice. Licences in the US are granted by
}the states, via their own laws and procedures.

This may be true, but it fails to address the claim that abolishing
licensure would eliminate the oligopoly effects troubling medicine in the US
today.

Tim Starr - Renaissance Now! - Think Universally, Act Selfishly
starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu

"True greatness consists in the use of a powerful understanding to enlighten
oneself and others." - Voltaire
Newsgroups: talk.politics.medicine