From: Bill.Carlson@p0.f18.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Bill Carlson)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Messianic Judaism 4 Of 4
Date: 24 Jul 92 01:11:06 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/18.0 - Midrash, Denver CO


          -=> Quoting Robert A. Levene to Bill Carlson <=-
 RAL> From: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (Robert A. Levene)
 RAL> Date: 22 Jul 92 16:58:42 GMT
 RAL> Organization: Johns Hopkins University
 RAL> Message-ID: <9207221658.AA07490@aplpy.jhuapl.edu>
 RAL> Newsgroups: alt.messianic
 RAL> 
 RAL> In article <139283.2A6C6A4B@paranet.FIDONET.ORG> you write:
 > RAL> Other movement leaders have ties to the Assemblies of God church,
 > RAL> and even the Jews for Jesus movement.
 >
 > Those who go by the title "Messianic Jews" come in all forms.  All the
 > way from what you'd consider very "Reform", to very "Frum".
 RAL> 
 RAL> Where does "ordained Christian minister" fit into the scale of Jewish
 RAL> belief and practice?
     I'm not concerned with where one studies, but who they are now.
     What if I told you I'd studied with the lubavitchers; so you now
     will consider me a hasid?!
 > But all these are just side trips.  The point is: either Y'shua is the
 > Messiah; or He isn't.  We believe He is.
 RAL> 
 RAL> That's not the point.  The point is "If you believe in the tenets
 RAL> of Christianity, why do you deceptively pretend to be a legitimate
 RAL> Jewish group rather than Christian?"
     Because at first, in the foundation of Messianic Biblical Judaism,
     in the 1st century; the group was Jewish!  As was the Belief
     system, the daily walk, etc....  Even though many of the roots of
     Gentile Christianity are founded upon a Judaic base; the folk have
     added to that foundation, {all too often}, a pagan structure.  We
     don't agree with this digression[s]; and advocate returning to the
     simple life-style of our fore-fathers who were also Believers.
     And since we are Jewish, we call ourselves Jewish!  WOW!  What a
     shocking revelation!  We are guilty of saying who we are: Jewish
     Believers in Y'shua as Messiah.  And you'll have shame on us for
     telling people what we are?!  What's wrong with this picture?
 > So, let me ask you: if He is; what would truly be your response, -
 > that is if you did believe that He was Messiah ben-Yosef?
 RAL> 
 RAL> If the queen were male, she'd be the king.
      That is true.  And so, you don't know the Biblical responce when
      Messiah ben-Yosef is revealed?
 > What would HaShem have to do in your life to prove that to you.
 > Just curious.
 RAL> 
 RAL> Neither you nor I may put G-d to the test in such a manner, nor in
 RAL> this age of hester panim could we even prove that He were behind it
 RAL> rather than chance, human action, or an as-yet-unknown phenomenon.
       Oh; so you are saying then that HaShem left us without proof from
       Tanakh, and even halachah, on how we would recognise the Messiah?!
            That's all I'm asking.  Let me re-phrase that for you: What
       instruction did HaShem leave, that if Y'shua had done, or even
       now would do for you personally, that would prove to you that He
       is the Messiah?

... 012 And El*him said: Let Us make man in Our image, after Our... 210    
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