HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: alisg@Msu.oscs.montana.edu
Subject: RE: HELP!
Reply-To: alisg@Msu.oscs.montana.edu
Organization: Montana State University
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 18:23:34 GMT

Several days ago I posted that I had enjoyed George Macdonald Fraser's
_Flashman_ books and asked for e-mail recommendations of something else. Here's
a summary of the replies:

From John S.: Fraser's _Mr. American_
              Thomas Berger, _Little Big Man_ (I've already read it, and 
                 heartily concur with the recommendation)

From Wayne C.: Patrick O'Brian's Aubrey-Maturin sea novels
               G. M. Fraser's MacAuslan stories

From Mary L.: Robertson Davies' _Murther and Walking Spirits_, plus a general
                 recommendation for anything else by Davies. I haven't read
                 this newest one, but I've read almost everything else and
                 agree with Mary -- even his not-very-good books are wonderful.

From Dave C.: Sharyn McCrumb novels involving Elizabeth McPherson

From Ted S.: Kenneth Roberts (I should have remembered! My bother's been trying
                to get me to read him for years :)
             Mario Vargas Llosa's "The War of the End of the World"
                (intriguing suggestion -- I loved Garcia Marquez's "100 years
                of Solitude," which is historical in a very odd way.)
             G. M. Fraser's _The Pyrates_

From Don Z (?): Robert Graves _I Claudius_, with a caveat not to accept the
                  "history" without reservations

Many thanks for the suggestions. I realized later that my post seemed to ask
for recommendations of other historical novels. I do enjoy them, but wasn't
interested in them exclusively. As much as anything, I enjoyed the humor and
iconoclasm of the _Flashman_ series.

Thanks again, folks.

george
alisg@trex.oscs.montana.edu
From: irwinke@storm.CS.ORST.EDU (Keith Irwin)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Cultural Appropriation and the New Age
Date: 24 Dec 1992 06:35:09 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Department, Oregon State University
NNTP-Posting-Host: storm.cs.orst.edu

tmaddox@netcom.com (Tom Maddox) writes:

> The work is usually divorced entirely from its original context and
> is in fact being offered for the esthetic pleasure of the urban dweller with
> (often significant) disposable income.  

> Next year, or the year after, I imagine these relics will no longer 
> be chic.  

More than likely, most consumers of 'ethnic/tribal' art are indeed using
their disposable income to purchase these items for their esthetic
pleasure.  There is, however, another kind of consumer, or rather, another
motivation behind the consumption.  I have talked to several small time
collectors and a couple of shop-owners who state that the primary reason
they sell/buy the art of the 'Exotic Other' is because of its 'spiritual
content.'

Buyers assume that small-scale, indigenous cultures have some kind of
premium on 'real' spirituality.  Everything they say, do, or make is seen as
being infused with a deep, spiritual significance which is lacking in
White Bread Euroamerican culture.  Therefore, some American--and
European--consumers buy these 'spiritually infused' articles in order to
possess something meaningful.  To paraphrase a shop-owner, this ethnic
stuff is desirable because it's more real.

I guess it's a story of spiritualizing consumption, and consumerizing
spirituality.  So, what may be no longer chic next year is accessing the
spiritual realm through the Other, though I doubt it.


Mary Smith-Nolan
(using irwinke@storm.cs.orst.edu)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: tmaddox@netcom.com (Tom Maddox)
Subject: Re: *Any* kind of r.a.b split, or at least a *serious* discussion
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 19:13:29 GMT

In article <1992Dec23.180850.26863@cbnewsd.cb.att.com> lew@cbnewsd.cb.att.com (lewis.h.mammel..jr) writes:
>In article <1992Dec20.091759.27869@netcom.com>, tmaddox@netcom.com (Tom Maddox) writes:
>> 	A *joking* attitude, it's called, and is easily recognized as such
>> by anyone with either a clue or a sense of humor.
>
>The boys throw stones at the frogs in jest, but the frogs die in earnest.

	Imaginary gardens with real toads?

	I don't think so, Mr. Mammel.  Whatever stones we exchanged on a
previous occasion (and there *was* a previous occasion, was there not? though
I don't remember the topic that provoked it), you seem to be doing quite
well--either that, or frogs post from the afterlife.

	Or, put it another way, any frog that dies from the stones thrown
on r.a.b. is at the very least taking itself far too seriously.

	An overwrought frog, as it were.  

	Sprout virtual wings, Mr. Mammel, and you perhaps will you will no
longer bump your froggy posterior.



-- 
				Tom Maddox
		    	    tmaddox@netcom.com
	"That's a bird bone, chair, Bob.  I don't know if I should sit there."
				Tom Waits
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: golub@nwu.edu (Robert Golub)
Subject: Sources for Internet books
Followup-To: rec.arts.books,misc.books.technical,alt.internet.services,comp.org.eff.talk
Organization: Northwestern University, Evanston, Illinois, USA
Distribution: inet
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 19:11:04 GMT

Sorry to have come into the book discussion late, but could someone give me
the complete references to The Internet Companion and The Whole Internet
(authors, publishers, etc.) and where they are being sold?

Thanks for your help!

-Rob
From: francis@oas.stanford.edu (Francis Muir)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Ngaio Marsh info requested
Date: 21 Dec 1992 16:54:50 GMT
Organization: Stanford Exploration Project
NNTP-Posting-Host: oas.stanford.edu

Jack Campin writes:

	Since (Ngaio) Marsh and the obnoxious Katherine Mansfield are 
	what are a large fraction of the outside world thinks of as 
	New Zealand's major literary products, this might well put off 
	people reading further, which would be their loss if they missed 
	out on Sargeson.  And I don't know a better way to counter that 
	than to say right out loud that Marsh is dull, derivative crap.

I imagine that not many people have seen Ngaio Marsh as NZ's counterpart
to Marcel Proust, but nevertheless she has clearly entertained and
amused a great number of people who read her genre. Kathleen Mansfield is 
quite another matter, and I'd be interested in finding out why Campin finds
her obnoxious. Is this something to do with politics? I haven't read the
collection of short stories in *THE GARDEN PARTY* for some time, but
now that you mention KM, I'll put TGP on my list of books to read again.

						RABworm
From: mtaranto@panix.com (Mark Taranto)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Reading as an addiction (Was: 92 in rabreview)
Date: 31 Dec 92 20:55:25 GMT
Organization: The Inner Clique


Somehow, I'm not surprised to discover that Mary Loveless keeps 
professors as pets.  At least she owns enough books to keep them well-fed.


Mark
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: eck@panix.com (Mark Eckenwiler)
Subject: Re: Non-rabelaisian farts
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1992 18:56:06 GMT
Organization: Superseding Information, Inc.

In <1992Dec28.154053.5439@eff.org>, mnemonic@eff.org sez:
>In article <BzyK2y.8wz@news.iastate.edu> s1mbm@isuvax.iastate.edu writes:
>
>>The humor of "The Miller's Tale," for instance is not "grounded"
>>in farts, even though Alison's fart is one of the central *events* of the
>>tale.
>
>I disagree. It's *the* central event, and the one you can count on
>students to remember if they remember "The Miller's Tale" at all.

Actually, this student recalls instead that it is a fart by Nicholas,
not Alison, which occurs at the tale's climax.


I will resist the urge to point out that my 2-month-old son Nicholas
was baptized yesterday; that the Greek Orthodox baptismal ceremony
begins with the exorcism of all fell spirits from the child; or that
he let flee a lusty fart -- a lingering spirit, no doubt -- upon
receiving his first communion.



-- 
They told me you had gone totally insane, and that your methods were unsound.

	   Mark Eckenwiler    eck@panix.com    ...!cmcl2!panix!eck
From: barclay@RAIL9000.gatech.edu (Barclay Blanchard)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Non-rabelaisian farts
Date: 27 Dec 92 00:06:27 GMT
Organization: Georgia Tech Research Institute

>> 	Mikw Godwin asks:
>> 
>> 		I'm trying to think of some non-Rabelaisian pieces 
>> 		about farting. Are there any?
>

Has anyone mentioned The Miller's Tale?  (I haven't been reading rab much 
lately.)


-- 
Barclay Elizabeth Blanchard    barclay@rail9000.gatech.edu
"I've been laughed at by some of the funniest people."
--Lissie, Alice Walker's _The Temple of My Familiar_
From: francis@oas.stanford.edu (Francis Muir)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: need: books on Henri Matisse (was Re: Great gift books for me!)
Date: 28 Dec 1992 00:52:46 GMT
Organization: Stanford Exploration Project
NNTP-Posting-Host: oas.stanford.edu

Keith Morgan writes:

	By the way Fiona, have you got tickets for MOMA already? I hear
	they're being scalped at horrendous prices due to the exhibit's
	popularity. 

I thought the scalping prices were rather reasonable. Less than $50.
Now there are few places in New York where you can get a good dinner for 
that price, so I'd say go; you'll never get another chance. MOMA should
have upped the price, of course. 

						RABworm

Oh yes. Books on Matisse. Forget it. Go and look at the pictures. Take
a dam' good look and then, maybe, peek at the books in a year or two.

						R
From: francis@oas.stanford.edu (Francis Muir)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Holiday reading
Date: 25 Dec 1992 17:34:46 GMT
Organization: Stanford Exploration Project
NNTP-Posting-Host: oas.stanford.edu

Marko Amnell writes:

	Some books I'm reading over the holidays:

		Leslie Lamport's LaTeX manual.  Professional level 
		typesetting on your PC. I'm sure you all use it already; 
		I want in on the fun.

One of the very, very few computer texts that are not written from within
the techie mindset. Lamport has a way with words that would make Eco
green with envy. He must have caught it from his mentor, Donald Knuth,
whose *The TeXbook* is the Old Testament to Lamport's New. 

								RABworm





Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: mnemonic@eff.org (Mike Godwin)
Subject: Re: Anne Rice Fan
Originator: mnemonic@eff.org
Organization: Electronic Frontier Foundation
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1993 00:19:46 GMT

In article <1992Dec31.183829.27566@genie.slhs.udel.edu> nancy@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Nancy Lebovitz) writes:
>In article <1992Dec31.102538.6308@eff.org> mnemonic@eff.org (Mike Godwin) writes:
>>
>>If the paperback of TALE OF THE BODY THIEF came out in 1988, one can
>>only wonder why they delayed the hardback until 1992. 
>
>Excuse me--I pruned the original too much. I think the question was about
>_Belinda_. In any case, that was the book I had in mind. 

The discussion touched both on BELINDA and on TALE OF THE BODY THIEF. 


--Mike



-- 
Mike Godwin,    |"I'm waiting for the one-man revolution
mnemonic@eff.org| The only one that's coming."
(617) 864-0665  |                           
EFF, Cambridge  |                   --Robert Frost 
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: kj@nwu.edu (Kathy Johnson)
Subject: Re: Flatulence (WAS Ngaio Marsh info requested)
Followup-To: rec.arts.books
Organization: Info Services, Northwestern Univ.
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 14:14:21 GMT

In article <168C57F1A.TROUTMAN@vmd.cso.uiuc.edu>, TROUTMAN@vmd.cso.uiuc.edu
wrote:
> 
> In article <1992Dec21.211949.24317@eff.org>
> mnemonic@eff.org (Mike Godwin) writes:
>  
> >In article <BzGyG6.2t1@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk> jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin) writes:
> >>
> >>"Tama" contains a
> >>Rabelaisian piece about farting ....
> >
> >I'm trying to think of some non-Rabelaisian pieces about farting. Are
> >there any?
> >
> >--Mike
> There is a Mark Twain short story, the name of which escapes me at present.
> It's *very* bawdy and hilarious.  I've been told it's in the most recent
> Library of America edition of Twain's work.  I've got a photocopy at home
> and can check the title if there's interest.
> Leslie T.
> TROUTMAN@VMD.CSO.UIUC.EDU


The Lookingglas Theatre just did a production of The Arabian Nights, a new
adaptation of The Book of One Thousand Nights and One Night.  They do
eleven of the stories, one of which is a classic farting scene (in which a
national holiday is finally proclaimed to honor a prince's world-class
(thank you Mr. Perot) fart.  The production just closed after an extended
run here in Chicago but the story would be worth reading.  Watching
audience reaction to a protracted fart was about as much fun as watching
the fart (all sound, nothing odiferous) in action.  

Happy Holidays rabbers.


Kathy Bates Johnson
Office of Information Systems & Technology
Northwestern University
kj@nwu.edu
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: msmorris@watsci.UWaterloo.ca (Mike Morris)
Subject: Re: Born in Bethlehem?
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1992 18:57:30 GMT

                                      Saturday, the 26th of December, 1992
                                    
Joseph O'Rourke writes:
  A. N. Wilson says in "Jesus: A Life" that it is extremely unlikely
  that Jesus was born in Bethlehem.  Even if one takes everything in
  the Bible as literally true, the birth in a stable remains pure
  myth.  It is not mentioned in any of the Gospels.

Huh? 
   ``And she brought forth her firstborn son, and wrapped him in
     swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger; because there was
     no room for them in the inn.'' [Luke 2.7, King James Version]

The word for ``manger'', or _phatne_, according to Liddell and Scott,
comes probably from _pateomai_, ``to eat''. I.e., a feeding trough.

In Matthew the wise men come to an _oikia_, a house. 

Now, I personally buy the probably mythical part---it being too good
a story, too consciously linked to (some of) the messianic prophecies
to be true---but the story is certainly to be found in the gospels.

                  Mike Morris
          (msmorris@watsci.uwaterloo.ca)
From: mtaranto@panix.com (Mark Taranto)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Stein and Hemingway (was: *Any* kind of r.a.b. split...)
Date: 26 Dec 92 18:49:49 GMT
Organization: The Inner Clique



hhenderson@vax.clarku.edu (Heather) writes:

[interesting and thoughtful response to Michael Wise deleted]


Good article.

Mark
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: jmc@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (John McCarthy)
Subject: Re: Education and the Environment by Gregory A. Smith
Reply-To: jmc@cs.Stanford.EDU
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University
	<C02rE0.CJ@news.iastate.edu>,<C0395J.Eow@watserv2.uwaterloo.ca>
	<C03JMs.Jy8@news.iastate.edu>
Date: 30 Dec 92 22:20:47

It is indeed commonsensical that degrading the environment hurts us all.
However, "understand the social costs of environmental degradation"
plus what was said in the direction of "not think of themselves as
individuals" all seems to have an additional agenda.  Perhaps I
would be mollified by a more detailed exposition of what is to be
taught and what the children are expected to do to demonstrate that
they have been suitably socialized.

Anecdote: My mother-in-law told me my seven year old son cried when
he heard I voted for Bush.  Loading up for bear, I asked him whether
the teacher had said anything suggesting that this wasn't a good
idea.  No, she hadn't said anything.  It was the other children.
To be expected in the Stanford community.  I told him that it wasn't
always a good idea to go by other people's opinions, but he was
already dismissing the whole subject.  I'll tell him some stories
about heroic nonconformists like Galileo.

Oh, well.  My two daughters are Democrats too.

Two questions.

1. What does McDonald see as the difference between education and
indoctrination?  If possible, give an example of what would be
improper indoctrination by a teacher in the environmentalist
direction.  What limits does McDonald impose on himself in preparing
material?

2. Tell more about the content of the material and how long it
lasts, etc.  What if a teacher doesn't agree with all of it?

--
John McCarthy, Computer Science Department, Stanford, CA 94305
*
He who refuses to do arithmetic is doomed to talk nonsense.

Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: eck@panix.com (Mark Eckenwiler)
Subject: Non-rabelaisian farts 
Supersedes: <1992Dec23.130603.8023@panix.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 13:09:24 GMT
Organization: Superseding Information, Inc.


Has anyone mentioned that Middle English chartbuster, "Sumer is icumen
in"?  I advert to the line "Bulluc sterteth, bucke verteth", which
means, roughly, "The bullock leaps, the buck breaks wind".

(Well, on second thought this is probably inconsequential, at least in
Heather's view.  I guess I'll have to go shove ungulate farts up my
ass, "a thing al rough and longy yherd".)



Mark "and it's *not* about summer" Eckenwiler
-- 
	     Every time you think, you weaken the nation.
				- attributed to Moe Howard

	Mark Eckenwiler    eck@panix.com    ...!cmcl2!panix!eck
From: francis@oas.stanford.edu (Francis Muir)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Mangled song lyrics (was: Cultural Appropriation and the New Age)
Date: 30 Dec 1992 16:35:52 GMT
Organization: Stanford Exploration Project
NNTP-Posting-Host: oas.stanford.edu

Joan Shields writes:

	John L. Scott writes:

		To my credit, I never had the same problem with Hark, 
		the herald angel.

	Gee, I always thought it was "Mark, the herald angel, sins..."

I think you mean:

	Mark, the [30 something]-year-old Angel...

Of course, you have to be a New Ager like Mark to appreciate this one.

							RABworm
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: dani@netcom.com (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Re: 92 in rabreview
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 18:12:20 GMT

pamela@sscux1.ssc.gov (pamela gurd):
>>...'and what is the use of a book,' thought
>>Alice, 'without pictures or conversations?'"
>
>Did you ever wonder what Alice meant by "conversations"? 

It never occurred to me to wonder until you asked.  Then I resorted to the OED.
The dictionary gives eleven definitions (she *could* have been questioning
the worth of a book without pictures or sex), of which the best candidate is:

"10. A kind of genre painting representing a group of figures."

-----
Dani Zweig
dani@netcom.com

   Aphorism is better than none.

Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: mgrimes@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Michael Grimes)
Subject: Re: Making notations in your books?
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 18:29:11 GMT

Does anyone listen to the British quiz show My Word on NPR ?  Dennis Norden
told a very funny story in a very dry, witty British way about people who write
in books, especially library books. I wish I had a transcription to post here.
Did anyone hear this story?
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: tmaddox@netcom.com (Tom Maddox)
Subject: Re: Judith Martin is too (was: Wits and Half-Wits)
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1992 02:10:09 GMT

In article <BzuIFF.3q7@NeoSoft.com> claird@NeoSoft.com (Cameron Laird) writes:
>In article <Bzs03t.KKH@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk> jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin) writes:
>>hhenderson@vax.clarku.edu quoted Tom Maddox:
>>> I'm much more concerned with whether people are being interesting, witty,
>>> enlightening, provocative.  In short, when it comes to public exchanges of
>>> the written word, I would hold up Oscar Wilde or Dorothy Parker as exemplars
>>> rather than Miss Manners.  
>Am I reading a different Miss Manners than everyone else? I
>regard her as with O. Wilde and D. Parker, not against.

	Perhaps so.  I withdraw the implication that Miss Manners is not
witty.  

>Maybe *that*'s the fundamental r.a.b. problem:  the nasty
>posters here have forgotten that great wit needs constraints--
>for example, those of grammatical elegance, superficial
>courtesy, objective correlatives, and so on--to be at its best.

	And maybe not.  While your presciption for "great wit" is both
concise and superficially plausible, it is suitable more to some idealized
18th century drawing room than to a late 20th century computer newsgroup.

	And in any case, both Dorothy Parker and Oscar Wilde could be 
discourteous when they felt the situation called for it.  For instance,
Ms. Parker's remarks in the guest book at Hearst Castle--I can't guarantee
the accuracy of the quote, which goes something like:

	Upon my honor,
	I saw a madonna
	Above the door
	Of the private whore
	Of the world's biggest son of a bitch . . .

Or words to that effect--which, no matter how you construe them, will not
count as superficially polite.

	In fact, the whole notion of holding up anyone in particular as 
exemplary for posting to r.a.b. suddenly strikes me as ludicrous.  Given the
actual _dramatis personae_ here--their incredible diversity of education, 
talent, diction, etc.--any such attempt can only be repressive.  So I'll
withdraw not only Miss Manners but also Mr. Wilde and Ms. Parker (though
I'll keep my high regard for them). 

>>I'd hold them up as exemplars, too.  People who produced a small output
>>with every superfluous word excised.  I suspect that Parker's collected
>>short stories amount to fewer words than some posters put out here in a
>>year.

	We are not writing short stories here, I would remind Mr. Campin.
More suitable grounds for comparison would be the cut-and-slash that 
apparently characterized Parker & Co. in more informal venues, from letters
to conversation.  
-- 
				Tom Maddox
		    	    tmaddox@netcom.com
	"That's a bird bone, chair, Bob.  I don't know if I should sit there."
				Tom Waits
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: elle@kimbark.uchicago.edu (Ellen Keyne Seebacher)
Subject: Re: Reading as an addiction (Was: 92 in rabreview)
Reply-To: elle@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 23:27:44 GMT

In article <1992Dec31.211322.6634@csusac.csus.edu> 
 yarnot@babbage.csus.edu (Jan Yarnot) writes:
>19, here.  Would have been more if I watched TV sports.

What she said.

--                    __
Ellen Keyne Seebacher \/             elle@midway.uchicago.edu
From: francis@oas.stanford.edu (Francis Muir)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Christmas Wish Fulfillment
Date: 22 Dec 1992 16:45:42 GMT
Organization: Stanford Exploration Project
NNTP-Posting-Host: oas.stanford.edu

Mike Morris writes:

	Martha usually avoids getting me books for Christmas. Because 
	I buy them anyway, or because she'll claim (exasperatedly) she 
	doesn't know what we have. Anyway, it means that when we were 
	just down to Indianapolis for a quarterly board meeting (the 
	family business---don't know what it says about The Economy, 
	but it's the first time we've managed a Christmas bonus in three, 
	four years) and a short visit with family, I managed to hit 
	Borders twice. Here's what I got:

      		_Autobiography_, J.S. Mill

Anybody who heads a long, long book-buying list with a book by man who 
took rustic Sunday walks with Peacock cannot be easily dismissed.

							RABworm


Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,news.answers,alt.fan.holmes
From: dani@netcom.com (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Re: 92 in rabreview
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 20:43:10 GMT

Jan Yarnot:
>I've had an eventful r.a.b. year.  I read some 220 books...

Whether I'm way over that or Not Even Close depends on what counts
as having read a book.  Does schlock sf count?  Does rereading favorite
schlock (sf and other genres) count?  Do children's books count?  How
about graphic novels?

-----
Dani Zweig
dani@netcom.com

   It was mentioned on CNN that the new prime number discovered
   recently is four times bigger then the previous record.
				-- John Blasik