HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jcasella@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Joseph A Casella)
Subject: How Accurate is the Blue Book?
Summary: Have the dealers been lying to me?
Organization: The Ohio State University
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 17:14:10 GMT

This weekend I was shopping for a used car and had a number of interesting 
exchanges with several of the dealers.  The scenarios went roughly as follows:

The dealer would show me a car that had a sticker for 1.5-3 times book value 
and then ask me if I would pay $X for that car today.  I would say no and 
counter with a price below book value (I have a copy of the NADA prices).  The 
dealer would then tell me, of course, that he can't sell a car for that 
much--after all, look at what a cut he was giving me below the sticker price, 
which he claimed was the retail value of the car.

At this point, I would reply to the dealer that the price he was showing me was
not the book value of the car and I was not prepared to buy that car at his 
price.

Instead of trying to counter-offer or tell me why his car was worth more,
several of the dealers got mad, told me that they couldn't buy a car wholesale
at auction for what I said the book value was, and then, after telling me I
didn't know the auto industry, proceeded to give me an economics lecture on 
supply and demand.  (That is, except for the guy who looked at his blue book 
and, seeing I was right, threw the book across the room and stormed out)

Is there any chance that these guys weren't lying to me--that their wholesale 
prices were really higher than the blue book retail prices?  And, for that 
matter, how much leverage does using book value give you in negotiations with 
the dealer?  Should I let them know I know the prices or not?
From: kh@sei.cmu.edu (Kurt Haverstock)
Newsgroups: rec.autos
Subject: Re: Saab brakes
Date: 12 Aug 92 17:59:36 GMT
Organization: Software Engineering Institute

In article Re: Saab brakes of Wed, 12 Aug 1992 16:22:00 GMT andyc@hplsla.hp.com (Andy Cassino) writes:


>| My dealer here did not put the front rotors under warranty, but he DID put
>| it for my rear brakes.  Does that sound odd to you?
>|        
>
>Yes.
>
If we're talking about lifetime warranties, I don't believe I've ever 
seen rotors covered. I had a set of lifetime warrantied pads on an '82
Charger that ate brakes like popcorn, but the rotor warranty wasn't
offered.
BTW, I went back to Midas a total of four times for new pads when I
owned the car...makes you feel good to stick it to *them* every once
in a while. Interestingly, my rotors "absolutely needed replaced" every time
I went there, but magically passed inspection at my local garage.


Kurt
From: hbt@athena.mit.edu (Helen B Tatistcheff)
Newsgroups: rec.autos
Subject: Engine Break-In Again
Summary: What about variable valve timing?
Keywords: Civic Si
Date: 12 Aug 92 19:24:06 GMT
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology

Hi,

I have followed with interest the recent discussion on breaking in a new
engine.  If I don't go crazy with anticipation first I will be able to pick
up my '92 Honda Civic Si in a couple of days.

I wonder if there is anything special I should keep in mind when breaking in
an engine with variable valve timing.  I don't know that much about how this
particular engine works, but I read that the engine in the VX undergoes a 
change in valve behavior at around 5000 rpm.  If I break the engine in
carefully and never take it over 4000 rpm, then there is a whole range of
motion that the engine hasn't experienced by the time I deem it broken in
and start to really have fun.  

Should I worry about valves during break in or is most of the concern directed
toward the cylinders and pistons?

Anybody have advice?  I haven't had a look at an owners manual yet.

Thanks,

Helen

-----------
Helen Tatistcheff | Sometimes a shadow, dark and cold lays like a mist across
hbt@athena.mit.edu| the road.  But be encouraged by the sight ...
617-253-1670      | Where there's a shadow there's a light.         -Petra
From: gareth@lucifer.latrobe.edu.au (Gareth Davies)
Newsgroups: rec.autos
Subject: Re: Locking Lug Nuts & Broken Key: Suggestions?
Date: 14 Aug 92 01:06:03 GMT
Organization: La Trobe University

In article <1992Aug12.141707.25576@ra.msstate.edu> mrr1@Ra.MsState.Edu writes:
>
>I have a set of locking lugnuts (McGuard brand) that uses a squiggly shaped key (no
>serial number).
>
>The key is broken (shattered, but I have most of the pieces).  
>
>Any Suggestions for removing the locks?
>
>Thanks
>
>Mark
>mrr1@isis.msstate.edu

I lost the key to a set of locking nuts for my wheels once. I solved it by
sawing the offending locking nuts off with an angle-grinder (my favorite
tool)...

Crude but effective :-)

Have to be careful with the paintwork though...

Gareth.

-- 

gareth@lucifer.latrobe.edu.au 
Newsgroups: rec.autos,rec.autos.driving,rec.autos.sport,rec.autos.tech,rec.autos.vw
From: alopez-o@neumann.UWaterloo.CA (Alex Lopez-Ortiz)
Subject: Re: Production Delay (Was: Re: reliable cars
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1992 21:16:10 GMT

In article <1992Aug20.145025.14282@uwm.edu>, greis@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Gayla Ann Greis) writes:
> In article <1992Aug19.160444.4189@microplex.com> hsk@microplex.com (Harjeet Kalsi) writes:
> 
> >When the next generation Golf/Jetta make their debut in a few months here they
> >will have a new (finally!) diesel/turbodiesel 1.9 liter engine, that pumps out
> >as much horsepower and a lot more torque than there gas engines of a just a 
> 
> Ummm, in case any of you haven't heard, the release of the 1993 A3 body cars
> has been officially delayed until January now. In Mexico, the labor leaders
> are elected officials, and go to the table without the workers voting. Well,
> they signed a contract with VW, and then the labor decided they didn't like
> what the labor leaders worked out and so started rioting. VW locked the
> workers out, and shut down the plant, while the army was called in to stop
> the vandals, rioting, and looting. As it stands now, production has been
> stopped, and the introduction delayed until 1993. (Longer if this keeps
> up.)


The VW plant has reopened, and the production philosophy is now "japanese-
style". So you may expect the new Golf and Jetta to be here in January 93, 
and with better quality than before.


> 
> Eurovan, Corrado, Passat, and Cabriolet production is right on key though.
> The Passat GLX is *slightly* delayed though. For those who haven't seen it,
> the A3 Cabriolet is a *SWEET* looking car! Until the next time! Tschus!

-- 
Alex Lopez-Ortiz                              alopez-o@maytag.UWaterloo.ca
Deparment of Computer Science                       University of Waterloo
Waterloo, Ontario                                                   Canada
Newsgroups: rec.autos
From: matt@ra.oc.com (Matthew Lyle)
Subject: Value of Bentley S1?
Organization: OpenConnect Systems, Dallas, TX
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1992 02:33:25 GMT

Does anybody out there have any idea what the general
price range for a 1959 Bentley S1 type??

-- 
Matthew Lyle                                           matt@oc.com
Technical Support Specialist                           matt@utdallas.bitnet
West/SW/SE/Mid Atlantic Region (*Phew*)
OpenConnect System, Dallas, Texas                      (214) 490-4090
From: erich.lim@cutting.hou.tx.us (Erich Lim) 
Newsgroups: rec.autos
Subject: ECLIPSE PERFORMANCE PACKA
Date: 21 Aug 92 11:47:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: The Cutting Edge - Houston, TX - 713-466-1525
Reply-To: erich.lim@cutting.hou.tx.us (Erich Lim) 

  I think the total cost for the HKS- Stages 1,2, and 3 with labor will
run about $5,000.  A full-blown kit consists of stages 1-5 and result in
a change from the stock 10.5psi to 17.5psi. Here are the figures:

Stage 1:  HKS Hi Flow Factory Turbo Exhaust with optional Turbo Timer
          (211h.p.)  (11.5psi.)

Stage 2:  Stage 1 and  Electronic Valve Controller (EVC) and optional
          lightweight flywheels and Centerforce clutch
          (226h.p.)  (14psi.)

Stage 3:  Stages 1,2 and  Power Flow Air Filter and optional  HKS/Eibach
          suspension kit
          (236h.p.)  (14psi.)

Stage 4:  Stages 1,2,3, and  Programmed Fuel Computer (PFC) units,
          Modified Air Mass Sensor, High Volume/Pressure Fuel Pumps and
          Regulators, Sport Turbo Upgrades and optional Brake pad
          upgrades
          (281h.p.)  (17.5psi.)

Stage 5:  Stages 1-4 and Camshafts and optional Upgrade Computer chips
          and PFC Graphic Computer II.
          (290h.p.)  (17.5psi.)


If you need more info. you can call
St. Andre's
(714)891-1002
Garden Grove, CA 92645

  An HKS kit in an Eclipse or Talon WILL make a hell of a difference as
I have raced a couple with HKS modifications.  They are MUCH faster than
stock, even just the exhaust will make a significant difference and
provide for a much better sound.

Erich Lim
  Internet add:   erich.lim&cutting.hou.tx.us
                  
Newsgroups: rec.autos
From: samuels@mcclb0.med.nyu.edu (Herb Samuels)
Subject: RE: Limited Edition Miatas
Organization: NYU Medical Center, New York, NY 10016, USA
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 13:30:05 GMT

I have had a Mazda Miata (red) for almost three years and it is a
wonderful car to drive fast with ease.  When the Limited Edition came
out I was not impressed.  I think that the geen color is too dark and
the car looks unimpressive compared with the other Miata colors.  If
you like leather seats you can get aftermarket seats installed.  I
think that it unlikly that the limited edition is a good investment,
particularly if you pat a high price to buy it.  Now if the car had a
150 hp engine, that would be a different story.

Newsgroups: rec.autos
From: jay@oclc.org (Young Jeff)
Subject: Re: Saturn featured on cover of this weeks BUSINESS WEEK
Organization: OCLC Online Computer Library Center, Inc.
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL3
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 13:57:04 GMT

jay@oclc.org (Young Jeff) writes:
: joec@fid.morgan.com (Joe Collins) writes:
: : Business Week (a weekly magazine from McGraw Hill) has a major
: : story on the success of Saturn and what it means for GM.
: : They also have an editorial on Saturn. Saturn is apparently
: : backlogged with orders and cannot build them fast enough
: : to meet demand.
: : 
: : The net is BW feels that GM had better learn the lesson of 
: : Saturn's success but recognizes that GM, with scarce resources,
: : needs to allocate future funding carefully among Saturn, Chevrolet,
: : etc.
: : 
: : Stempel (Chairman) has some reservations since he thinks that
: : Saturn owners can simply graduate to bigger GM cars, i.e. Chevrolet, 
: : Oldsmobile, Pontiac, etc. BW disagrees with him.
: : 
: : BTW - I own a 1991 Saturn SC, and like it alot. 
: : 
: : Get the magazine - its good reading....
: 
: I recently bought a 92 Saturn SC and am very happy with it as well.
: I haven't read the article yet, but would like to comment on graduating
: to bigger GM cars.  FAT CHANCE IN HELL!  The Saturn fulfilled just
: about every requirement I wanted even better than the Japanese cars
: did.  That's why I bought it.  I am pleased it was built in America
: and that was a plus, but if they think I am back to American for good,
: they are sadly mistaken.  I will buy the best car for the best price
: even if I have to buy it from Satan Motors, Inc.  I am attending
: Saturn's open house for new owners tonight.  If the article is as
: you say, I will be sure to bring this up with them then.

Sorry to follow up my own message, but I must say that if I had to
put up with standard GM service departments, my Saturn wouldn't
have made the first cut on my car buying list.  It was difficult
to abandon my loving Honda service department, but I have high
hopes for Saturn service.  I hope I'm not disappointed.  Hear that GM?
-- 
Jeff Young

Opinions expressed are mine alone.
From: basiji@milton.u.washington.edu (David Basiji)
Newsgroups: rec.autos
Subject: Re: Locking Lug Nuts & Broken Key: Suggestions?
Date: 12 Aug 92 15:51:45 GMT
Organization: University of Washington

mrr1@Ra.MsState.Edu (mark r rauschkolb) writes:


>I have a set of locking lugnuts (McGuard brand) that uses a squiggly shaped key (no
>serial number).

>The key is broken (shattered, but I have most of the pieces).  

>Any Suggestions for removing the locks?

>Thanks

>Mark
>mrr1@isis.msstate.edu


I've heard of people pounding (impact) sockets onto the lug nuts
and spinning them off with a breaker bar.

Dave
.

-- 
David Basiji 
"C neophyte, Bioengineering Grad Student, Internet Personality"

email: basiji@u.washington.edu          
NeXTmail: basiji@larry.pathology.washington.edu

		"Whining is just anger coming out of a very small hole."
            --Stuart Smalley
From: jonc@dworkin.Amber.COM (Jon Cochran)
Newsgroups: rec.autos
Subject: Normal Cavaliers
Date: 14 Aug 92 16:45:48 GMT
Organization: Labyrinth II BBS


     So they don't have 190 ci of displacement.  But my RS is still a blast 
to drive, okay so I can't take everyone off the line, but just try to lose  
me in the corners.  And if that isn't enough, I'll just take my parents Saab 
when they aren't looking.
       So is there a cavalier club out there?  If not let's form one.

Newsgroups: rec.autos
From: johnsh@aix.rpi.edu (Hugh Johnson)
Subject: Re: Police Tauri
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy, NY
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 14:39:51 GMT

In article <1992Aug11.195605.595@skitzo.dseg.ti.com> dittman@skitzo.dseg.ti.com (Eric Dittman) writes:
>There's never been a Taurus/Sable with a 5.0L V8 (or any V8).  There was
>an early Taurus MT5 that had a 4-cylinder with 5-speed manual, but that
>was underpowered and dropped from the line.

Believe it or not, there were a select number of Tauruses produced in '87 or
'88 which had a 5.0 painfully shoehorned into its engine bay.  These V8
Tauruses were experiments to see if the SHO model -- just then being intro-
duced -- would fare better with the homegrown V8.  The conversion took too
much of the 5.0's spirit away, though, so it was never produced in large
quantities.  I've only seen one, and it was owned by a friend of mine in --
guess where? -- Dearborn.  Being an employee has its advantages.

>The automatic transmission for the SHO has been on-again-off-again for
>the past couple of years.  Has Ford definitely decided to bring out
>the automatic now?

Yes.  Or at least, closer than it has been.  An FYI in Car And Driver a month
or so ago reported that the '93 SHO will have an automatic as an option.  It
also stated that the Yamaha engine for '93 will be bored out to 3.2L (up from
3.0) for more low-end torque.  Waiting with bated breath...

===============================================================================
# Hugh Johnson                     # "What would this country be without this #
# Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute #  great land of ours?" - R. Reagan        # 
# Troy, New York                   #                                          #
======================================= "Sit down and shut up!" - G. Bush     #
# Internet:                           #                                       #
# johnsh@rpi.edu                      # "Don't forget to vot!" - D. Quayle    #
# johnsonhw%phvax.dnet@smithkline.com #                                       #
===============================================================================
From: dwjz@bnr.ca (Doug Zolmer)
Newsgroups: rec.autos
Subject: Re: ....Integra A/C and Headlights.......problem ?
Date: 12 Aug 92 20:05:23 GMT
Reply-To: dwjz@bnr.ca (Doug Zolmer)
Distribution: usa
Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd.

In article <1992Aug12.150529.20131@baarsa.bell-atl.com>, ddlz0hv@baarsa.bell-atl.com (Ravi Shankar) writes:
|> hi netters,
|> 
|> I have another question about my new Integra LS. Last night I was driving with
|> my A/C on and also my headlights were on. I hear a very small click sound ( only
|> when the A/C is on) and the headlights dim a little. Then I think the headlights
|> come back slowly to original brightness. Its a very slight decrease in brightness.
|> Anyway this click sound comes every 3-4 minutes and every time the headlights
|> dim. Does the A/C go on and off ? and each time it goes on does it draw power
|> from the battery( I thought the compressor drew power by a belt from the engine..
|> or something..I am guessing) and thus reduses power to the headlights ?
|> Anyone out there have any ideas. I noticed this just yesterday and have only
|> 600 miles on the car. The clicking sound is not very loud but one can hear it.
|> 
|> all suggestions welcome.
|> thanks in advance..

The click occurs when the air conditioner's compressor cycles on.  While
the compressor is running, it places a greater load on the engine, which
tends to make it idle a bit slower.  There's an idle-boost switch which
boosts the idle speed to make up for the increased load on the engine.
Also, when the compressor cycles on, it also places a greater load on the
electrical system.  There's a short delay between when the compressor 
cycles on and the engine's idle speed is boosted.  During the delay, the 
engine's idle speed is reduced, so the alternator turns a bit slower 
and you get a "brown-out" in the car's electrical system.

This is indicative of too small/weak a battery and alternator for the 
amount of load being placed on the system.  Since the high load is only
transient, Honda probably decided that is wasn't worth spending the
extra money for an electrical system with a higher load rating.

I had this same problem with my 1988 Honda Civic 4-door (automatic).
What was really annoying was that the compressor cycled on for 30 seconds,
then off for 20 seconds no matter what the ambient temperature.  So, every 
50 seconds my headlights dimmed.  Try this when it's cold and raining with 
the lights on, rear window defogger running, windshield wipers wiping, 
stereo blasting, heat turned up all the way - made for really dim 
headlights when the A/C cycled on!  If I didn't get rid of the car,
I probably would have put a 100 amp alternator in to replace the
stock 60 amp.

My 1992 Civic EX (5-speed) does _not_ suffer from this problem at all.
Of course, the regional rep. tells me that Honda made major design
changes to the A/C system for the new Civics and Preludes.  I imagine
that subsequent Honda/Acura products will also be better in this regard.

|> 
|> ravi
|> 
|> -- 

-- 
dwjz@bnr.ca  Voice: +1 613 763-8217  Disclaimer: my opinions only
From: romansks@unvax.union.edu (Steve Romanski)
Newsgroups: rec.autos
Subject: Re: Should I Buy a Saturn or a SkyLark?
Date: 17 Aug 92 18:15:11 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Union College, Schenectady, NY

cherkaue@ee.rochester.edu (Brian Cherkauer) writes:

>In article <2400034@hpsad.sad.hp.com> eric@hpsad.sad.hp.com (Eric Lucas) writes:
>>The Saturn does not need to be lubed as all its critical parts are sealed.  

>I have this "feature" on my '87 Escort.  The end result of which is that
>I have to replace my tie rod ends every 35000 miles.  Luckily, aftermarket
>suppliers have seen fit to put grease fittings on the latest set, and
>they should last much longer.  (Had the originals replaced under warranty,
>so I got the same lousy lifetime lubrication parts.  Just replaced those
>recently.)  But, hey, I saved about 80 cents worth of grease by spending
>$200 on parts.

>I'd like to think that Saturn wouldn't make the same mistake.  Maybe they
>have specially hardened parts or some such.  I hope.

>-Brian
>  cherkaue@ee.rochester.edu


Hey my 90 escort GT had the same option did you have to pay extra for yours


Do the new ones 92 & up have the same feature.

___________________________________________________________
Newsgroups: rec.autos
From: greis@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Gayla Ann Greis)
Subject: Re: Dealer Profit on Small Imports?
Originator: greis@csd4.csd.uwm.edu
Reply-To: greis@csd4.csd.uwm.edu
Organization: University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 15:08:47 GMT

From article <1992Aug20.133521.4832@sei.cmu.edu>, by sjb@sei.cmu.edu (Sandra Bond):
> 
> I've been looking at small imports, and two differents dealers (Ford Festiva
> and Dodge Colt) are both insisting that they only make about $250 each on
> these small cars.  I find this hard to believe.  What's the true story?

While I won't tell you what invoice is on the Colt, I assure you, the
markup isn't that much. If you don't believe me, go to the library and look
at what the markup is yourself. People seem to have lost sight of what
sticker prices are in the first place. The sticker price is the price of
the car. Invoice is what the dealer paid for the car (barring DCIs).
The dealer is in a wholesale situation, you're in a retail situation.
Auto prices in Europe are 30-40% higher than in the US, while interest
rates are approaching 15%. While most people feel that salesmen are slime,
do you work strictly on commission, only to have everything after several
hours fall through? (Because a customer shopped you, and felt they got a
better deal by $50!!!) Why do you feel you should be able to buy a car
for wholesale? Do  you really think that you are that special?
When a car is with minimal markup so you don't have to dicker, you still
want to make life hard. Arrrgh.

[=Useless rantings and ravings that fall upon deaf ears mode off now,
  because anyone reading this also feels that they should buy something
  for nothing and that someone trying to make a living is slime wouldn't
  understand anyway, and would do anything to make the salesman miserable.=]
From: za72@sdcc3.ucsd.edu (mo'money)
Newsgroups: rec.autos
Subject: Re: Does anyone like the new Prelude?
Date: 12 Aug 92 14:11:47 GMT
Organization: University of California, San Diego

In article <BsuH1z.Byt@news.cso.uiuc.edu> rra21220@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Rae R. Aranas) writes:
>I was just wondering what
>all of the rec.auto readers
>thought about the new 
>Honda Prelude 
>
>Looking for opinions,
>RRA

let just say the prelude was not in need of a new design
From:  (Eric Youngblood)
Newsgroups: rec.autos
Subject: Re: mobil/Valvoline synthetic oil
Date: 20 Aug 92 19:01:49 GMT
Reply-To: Peon w/o Email priv (Eric Youngblood)
Organization: Bell-Northern Research, Richardson, Tx

In article <1992Aug19.210401.25844@noose.ecn.purdue.edu>, rjwade@rainbow.ecn.purdue.edu (Robert J. Wade) writes:
|> i just put this in my quad4.
|> questions:
|> if i need to add oil at some point can i use ANY 10w30 to add or should i
|> only add mobil 1 synthetic 10w30?
|> 
|> i notice that every time i start my car the engine is noisy for about 1 second
|> and then instantly quiets.  with 'normal' oil i only noticed this on the
|> 1st start after an oil change(i assumed that was because the filter was not full yet etc.).  is mobil 1 so slick it drains off the engine parts to the pan in
|> seconds after shutdown?

I just put Valvoline's new 100% synthetic motor oil in my Pont 400 V8. I am using
the 10w-30 variety. Valvoline claims increases in horsepower and reduced operating
temperatures as well as signifigantly reduced engine wear.

Well, its been a couple weeks now. I can definitly notice a difference in the temperature. The engine runs a full 10 degrees cooler. It may be more but the 180
degree thermostat wont allow it to run lower. I have also noticed the starter
doesnt seem to labor as hard on early morning startups. As far as increased power
is concerned that is difficult to determine. If it is doing that it is probably
in the upper rpm ranges. So far I am quite pleased.


$0.02
Ericy
Newsgroups: rec.autos
From: mike%jim.uucp@wupost.wustl.edu (Mike Suter)
Subject: Attn all Stealth/3000GT owners: mailing list formed!
Summary: New Stealth/3000GT mailing list formed!
Keywords: stealth 3000gt mailing list
Organization: BITS, St. Louis, MO
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1992 17:38:08 GMT

If you would like more info/want to join, send a message to:

	stealth-req%jim.uucp@wupost.wustl.edu

We have actually had an informal email group going for some time, but
haven't organized into a real 'mailing list' until now.

We dont have any sort of set agenda, it's all informal.

Mike
-- 
mike%jim.uucp@wupost.wustl.edu
Xref: sparky rec.autos:20208 rec.autos.driving:4999