From: khan@ces.cwru.edu (Mansoor Khan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
Subject: URDU KEE KEHAANEE -- KHAN KEE ZEBAANEE
Date: 6 Nov 1992 08:38:20 GMT
Organization: Computer Engineering and Science, Case Western Reserve University
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: king.ces.cwru.edu


>>> ......
>>Hmm! I guess by this definition there is no such thing as Pakistani cluture,
>>>or Indian or Islamic culture ... not that I do not agree with you .... I'm 
>>>just wondering which culture do I belong to !  and the rest of 8 million 
>>>(?) Karachites!  Any thoughts on that?
>>
>>	adopt to sindhi language and culture.
>>
>>Mirza Ilyas

>In other words, through out my own culture and take on someone else's.
>Why???????????????????
	Mirza Ilyas is ofcourse trying to be funny. But, learning
	Sindhi and adopting good things from the Sindhi culture
	will not hurt anyone. I mean what is wrong in learning
	an extra language which is so close to Urdu anyway.
	If people who speak Urdu as their First language can learn,
	and speak English, and those living in Panjab or Serhed can
	speak Panjabi and Pashtoo, why cant those who live in 
	Sindh try to learn Sindhi. In fact, those kids who went
	to school in 1980's learned sindhi for quite a few years
	( will someone correct me on this?)
   Dont they have to pass  an exam on Sindhi for Secondary School Certificate	   exams( Class X). So Native Urdu speakers will learn Sindhi eventually. 
	They do not need orders from Mirza Ilyas.
	And sahabzaaday, why do you think that you have to throw
	your own culture to learn Sindhi.


>sahibzada rafay khan [ i am a sindhi but with my own definition]


	I think the whole discussion started when Ali Haveliwala was 
	mentioning some post about Urdu being a culture or not.
	It is a historic question. It is a political question.
	but please do not make it phuddaa baazee question.

	Few Points:

	Urdu is not owned by any one. In Urdu, I will say keh Urdu
	kisee kay baap kee Jaagir Nahin.

	Urdu does not define a Race. In fact, by the very definition,
	Native Urdu speakers are MIX of several races.
	In fact one is not a native urdu speaker unless he is a mix.
	OR unless she is a mix. To be fair :-)
	Just think about the name URDU. It means Cantonemnet, lashkar,
	camp; What does it all mean. When People from 
	Iran, Arabia, Afghanistan, Bukhara, tashqand, samarkhand
	came to land of Gangaa and Jamnaa, they needed  to communicate 
	with the people who were their before them. 
	So among Urdu speakers you will find people who are originally
	pathans, iranis, hindustanis( people of the land between gangaa
	and jamnaa), bukharis, and panjabis. I am sure almost
	every body got surprised at this last thing. Panjabis.
	Ever been to Dehli Mercantile Society. EVEr wondered who 
	are these people. I mean who founded the once posh Dehli
	Mercantile Society in Karachi. Who are Dehli-Panjabi Saudagaraans.
	If anyone of them reading the net right now, please put
	your comments. But until then let me say, that these
	are those panjabis who went to Dehli centuries ago and 
	are Urdu Speakers now. But by their race, they are panjabis.
	If you go to Kanpur( right inside U.P.) you will find
	there are Panjabis living there for centuries. They are 
	all Urdu speakers. Ever heard of Najibabad in U.P. Ever
	wondered who lives there. Well, Najib was a rohilla Sardar.
	So who were these Rohilaas. Pathans, who else. So ofcourse,
	Urdu speakers, who lived in najibabad are pathans.
	Imam Bukhari of Dehli's Royal Mosque. HE is Urdu speaking, Right?
	sure, but his ancestors came form Bukhara. 
	Ever heard the term UP-kay-Pathaans. They are all Urdu speaking.
	But what is their race? I mean who cares!
	Lets go to Bhopal. Same mix. When you go to Bihar, you
	find The same situation.
	Todays average Urdu speaker is safe to assume that he/she
	is a mix of origianal hindustani plus so many other races.
	In Bengal, You find people like Navab Slaeemullah?
	Was he a Bengali by race. No! But whatever was his race,
	he spoke Urdu. Khwaja Nazimuddin of Bengal. Khwajas in
	Bengal? What was his race. What was his mother tongue.
	HE did represent Bengal though.
	How about Urdu Speaking Bengalis of Panjab  background?
	Hasan Shaheed Suhrawardy is an example. Will someone from
	Multan confirm this. 
	Hasan Shaheed Suhrawardy and his cousin( Begum Shaista Ikraamullah)
	were good example of Mixup I am talking about.

	Lets go south now. The Deccan. Nizams were Uzbeks. Muslims
	in Deccan before Nizams were mostly of Irani origin and ofcourse
	local Telgus etc. With Nizams came Pathans and later Arabs.
	And then Panjabi Muslims. 
	NAvab Bahadur Yar Jang is the most famous Urdu Speaking Hyderabadi
	of Pathan origin. 
	Ghulam Muhammad (ex-Governor General of Pakistan) is the most
	famous Urdu Speaking Hyderabadi of Panjabi origin.
	Chicago's huge Hyderabadi community has amazingly high number
	of Pathans in it. 

	During Mughal time, Governors/Navabs and other officers
	were shuffled around all the time. No matter where they originalyy
	came from, north or south, east or west, they had to speak one common
	language. This happened for hundereds of years. and we got Urdu.
	So the navabs and zamindars in todays panjab, are not 
	of panjabi race necessarily. same is true for zamindars of
	UP and navabs of Bengal.
	Urdu was a language of communication between the Beaurucrates,
	army, and business people. This was true 200 years ago in
	that days India. It is today the case with urdu in pakistan
	and hindi( in India).
	Urdu( or Hindi) is a mixture of old North Indian languages,
	Persian, Turkic languages, arabic, English, Portugese,
	and French. 

	Majority of people who speak Urdu as their first language
	were concentrated in Avadh, Dehli, and Agra region.
	This was in addition to Hyderabad, Bhopal, andBihar area.
	Due to the fact that Dehli, Lucknow, and Hyderabad
	were center of Muslim Power for centuries, Urdu flourished
	in these areas.  Now, wrong or right,  Urdu Culture is
	sometimes associated with Dehli and Lucknow, and to
	some extent with Hyderabad( in Deccan).
	But, remember, Urdu Culture is a mix of several cultures.
	The real name of the language itself explains the story!

	Zabaan-e-Urdu ===> The Language of the Cantonement/Camp/Army.

	So Urdu speakers should not waste their time over things like
	whether they should learn/adopt Sindhi.
	Learn the Language, take the good things from Sindhi Culture,
	ignore the short-comings of Sindhi culture.
	This is the key to success. This is the Definition of Urdu people.
	If I may be allowed to use this word.......

Mansoor Khan
Cleveland,Ohio.

P.S.  For those people, who have inquired about the dirty jokes,
      I will start doing that again, pretty soon.
	Innallaha-ma'aa-saabrin.
	Bechaa loge, Sabar kaa daaman haath say naa ch'horo.