From: underdog@leland.Stanford.EDU (Dwight Joe)
Subject: Re: Comfort girls?
Keywords: rape of nangking
Organization: Miners for a Heart of Gold
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 92 02:59:21 GMT

Before I start, I should introduce some notation:

-ge = ethnically speaking (i.e. genetically)
-cu = culturally speaking
-ci = speaking in the sense of citizenship

So, a Chinese-ge can be Japanese-cu but American-ci; in other words,
an ethnic Chinese can be an American citizen but live life according
to the values and standards of Japanese culture.

In article <1ho168INN1cv@agate.berkeley.edu> jcliu@four-lab4.Berkeley.EDU
(James C. Liu) writes:
>In article <1992Dec28.214852.25986@leland.Stanford.EDU> underdog@leland.
>Stanford.EDU (Dwight Joe) writes:
>  >On the other hand, the Chinese gov't has gone to great lengths to
>  >verbally crucify the Japanese gov't and Japanese people in Chinese
>  >textbooks of WWII, even to the point of exaggerating facts.  Case in
>  >point:  massacre in Nanjing.  There is considerable dispute as to the
>  >number of people actually killed, but the Chinese insist on 200,000
>  >deaths.  The American tribunal in Japan at the end of the war officially
>  >concluded that only 20,000 were killed.  (I am more inclined to believe
>  >the American side.)
>Mr. Joe, you've seemed to be blinded by your obvious despisement of 
>the Chinese

Perhaps, Mr. Liu can explain that to my Chinese-ge friends, who (by the
way) are Western-cu.

I suspect that Mr. Liu is Chinese-cu; he has already admitted to being
Chinese-ge.  It seems that Chinese-cu Chinese-ge are virtually the only
people who insist that a Chinese-ge must necessarily be Chinese-cu.
Yes.  Rednecks and Klansmen have the same view.

Chinese-cu and rednecks are unable to see people as individuals who
are free to choose whatever culture (or set of values) that they
desire.

People like Mr. Liu are unable to distinguish between culture (behavior)
and ethnicity (genetics).  Mr. Liu translates my criticism of Chinese-cu
culture and society into hatred of Chinese-ge.  Only a Chinese-cu would do
that.

> or at least your feeling of racial superiority of the
>Japanese.

This too is typical of many of the mealy-mouthed comments made by
Chinese-cu people.  Namely, they think that criticism of Chinese-cu
culture translates, also, to advocacy of the "racial" (quotes intended)
superiority of the Japanese-ge or Caucasians-ge.  What morons.

It is also indicative of Chinese-cu that they consider the Chinese-ge
to be a distinctive "racial" group, as distinct from the Korean
"racial" group and the Chinese "racial" group.  I suspect that Mr. Liu
was born overseas; his thinking certainly suggests such a possibility.

> The numbers of dead are not so important.  What is more
>important is that descendants of those that commit atrocities be

No.  The implication in this statement is b*llsh*t.

Chinese-cu tend to use the term "descedants" and "ancestors" very
loosely.  Certainly, all the descendants of the Japanese who committed the
atrocities is a very small group if we use the term "descendants" as
as defined in the West.  For example, the descendants of Mr. Liu would
be his children.

However, Chinese-cu use the term "descendants" to mean all those in a
"racial" (quotes intended) group.  They mean that all the Japanese-ge
bear shame for what other Japanese-ge did.

In other words, the "sins of the father become the sins of the children".
This contrasts starkly with the Western view.  I am not responsible,
am not worthy of praise for, and am not guilty of the actions of another
person; the person who committed the action is responsible.

Chinese-cu think otherwise.  By the way, Chinese-cu Chinese-ge people apply
"the inheritance of guilt concept" to everyone except Chinese-ge people.
This is fairly typicalm, too.

>educated sufficiently so they will take up the responsibility to
>preventing it from ever happening again.  

See what I mean?

This is total b*llsh*t.  I don't see why Japanese-ge people have special
responsibilities because of what other Japanese-ge people did.  The only
thing that Japanese-ge children should be taught is accurate history that
depicts events in all its proper dimensions.  That's all.

However, we all, not just the Japanese-ge, have responsibility to ensure
that atrocities never happen again.  This is not a responsility that
accrues specially to the Japanese-ge.  We _all_ have this responsibility.

It's too bad that Chinese-cu people don't understand.  Western-cu Chinese-ge
people understand.  Actually, virtually all Westerners-cu understand.
It's mostly the Chinese-cu that are ignorant.

>>(In fact, if you look up the massacre (in Nanjing) in Encyclopedia
>>Britannica, you will find that it lists the figure to be 20,000 -
>>200,000.  In other words, don't believe the Chinese claims.)
>But does the encyclopaedia also mention what the total cost in human
>lives was during the 8 years of occupation?  Again, numbers published by
>the communists may not have as much credibility, but the more important
>issue is that the Japanese recognize that their military, their
>government, and their own sons who went to war were capable of such
>atrocities and for the Japanese to insure it never happens again.

The Japanese-ge have greater knowledge, despite the twisted efforts
of the Japanese-cu gov't to hide history, of what happened in WWII than
the Chinese-cu have of what happened in this century.

Almost no Chinese-cu know that the Chinese-ge killed more than 75 million
people in this century--let alone admit it.

>>Curiously, Chinese textbooks, vindictive as they might be toward the
>>Japanese, never mention the 75 million (and more) people that the Chinese
>>have killed in this century.  There is no mention of the Tibetans that
>>were murdered.[1]  There is no mention of the 20,000 Taiwanese murdered by
>>the Kuomitang (KMT).  There is no mention ...  Well, you get the picture.
>Certainly the KMT, CCCP, and others in China's history have been just as
>corrupt, inhuman, and atrocious.  Does this make it right for Japan,
>supposedly a developed nation and democracy to lower itself to the same
>level as a poor nation with an autocratic government?  No.  Two wrongs
>don't make a right.

This paragraph is typical of Chinese-cu people.

Perhaps, Mr. Liu should go back to my original post.  At no point did
I use Chinese-cu ignorance and cruelty to justify the Japanese gov'ts
efforts to hide history.

I was responding to Ms. Tongue's request on how the Japanese-cu and
the Chinese-cu viewed WWII.  That's all that I was responding to.
At no point did I use Chinese-cu barbarism to justify what the Japanese-cu
gov't is doing.  The only thing that I added was that despite Chinese-cu
vilification of the Japanese-ge, the Chinese-cu don't mention that they
killed 75 million people--including 20,000 Taiwanese.

Experience has shown me that _only_ Chinese-cu people would then conclude
that I was justifying the Japanese-cu gov'ts efforts to hide history.
Again, for the 3rd time (to the Chinese-cu jerks), I did not say any
such thing.

_Only_ Chinese-cu people would make this kind of erroneous extrapolation.
They really are ignorant.

>  >It's curious that although the same number of people were killed 
>  >(in Taiwan) by the Chinese and (in Nanjing) by the Japanese, the Chinese
>  >textbooks are silent are the former and maniacal on the latter.
>No, not the same number.  You yourself are taking the extremes and not
>presenting truly accurate numbers.  why aren't you again presenting the
>range of numbers?  You take the extremes which make the Chinese seem 
>worse.  Your tactics are obvious.

Only to Mr. Liu.

My point is that the Chinese-cu are just as disgusting as what they
claim the Japanese-ge to be.

>  The killings of the Taiwanese by the
>occupational forces, although wrong were the result of a perceived 
>military need to destroy an enemy's ability to fight back, the rape of
>Nanjing was not recognized as of having any military significance.  It
>was a "joy ride" by the Japanese Military to see how many "Changaroo"
>they could rape, hunt and kill in a short time.  I don't want to be
>perceived as demunitizing the actions of the KMT, but the actions of the
>Japanese were ethically and morally more inhuman than a calculated
>military action.

Come on.  Do we really need to post the Newsweek article about
the Chinese-cu massacre of Taiwanese-ge?

The Chinese-cu gunned down a grandmother sellling cigarettes, claiming
that she was a subversive.  Oh Chr*st.  How is that "a calculated
military action"?

By the way, I don't see how "death by Japanese-ge machine gun" is more
inhuman than "death by Chinese-cu machine gun".  I also don't see
how "rape by Japanese-ge" is more inhuman than "rape by Chinese-ge".

Just leave it to a Chinese-cu to say that Japanese-ge brutality is
worse than Chinese-cu Chinese-ge brutality.  To Westerners-cu, they
are both equally disgusting.  But then, Chinese-cu culture has always
been a little different (an understatement in the utmost).

>  >[1] According to the December 26, 1992 (plus or minus a day) edition of
>  >the San Francisco Chronicle, 10 Tibetans have just been sentenced to
>  >5-to-9 years of prison by a Chinese tribunal.  They have been accused
>  >of crimes against the state.  1 of the prisoners is a commoner who
>  >believed in Buddhism.
>How convenient that the AP or UPI who really don't understand Chinese
>history or culture report and sell these syndicated biased stories to

Typical Chinese-cu comments to anyone who says anything critical about
Chinese-cu society.  This is basically a variation on

        You don't really understand Chinese-cu history or culture.
        That's why you are saying such critical things.  _I_ know Chinese-cu
        culture; it's in my blood.   What you are saying is totally distorted.
        Believe _me_.

This and its variations (like Mr. Liu's statements) is basically said by
Chinese-cu people to anyone who dares to criticize Chinese-cu thinking.

Think about this.  If you accept Mr. Liu's thinking, then you can
never criticize Chinese-cu society.  Why?  Because anything or anyone
that is used as a source of criticism is automatically negated since
they "don't really understand Chinese-cu history or culture".

How stupid can you get?  But this is typical Chinese-cu thinking.

>only too willing newspapers.  Most scholars from China, Taiwan, and Hong
>Kong that I've met see don't perceive the Bhuddist monks as so

That doesn't surprise me.  See above.

>holier-than-thou as do westerners.  They have varying opinions of course
>on the rights and wrongs of the communist government, but the news
>stories in the Chronicle wouldn't be what I consider accurate.

Well, if the Chronicle isn't good enough, then how about a quote
from page 17 of the "Far Eastern Economic Review", November 12, 1992?

          Peking is also aiding the 'one China' advocates.  Chinese
          politburo member Li Ruihan told editors of Taipei's two
          pro-government newspapers in Peking on 29 October that China
          would use any means to prevent the independence of Taiwan.
          'We would not hesitate to shed blood,' Li said, according to
          the United Daily News.

Note that the Chinese-cu made these comments, not in Oct. 29 1952, but
in October 29, _1992_!

Imagine what Chinese-cu jerks would say if Japan had said that it "would
not hesitate to shed blood" in the event that Okinawa declares its
independence.  Yep.  Those Chinese-cu jerks would make the same kind
of nasty, filthy, mealy-mouthed comments that occasionally spill into
soc.culture.japan from soc.culture.china, soc.culture.taiwan, and other
rubbish newsgroups.

Of course, the Chinese-cu are silent about Mr. Li's comments.  In fact,
some of them openly support killing Taiwanese-ge in order to suppress
self-determination.  Don't believe me.  Just peek into soc.culture.china,
soc.culture.taiwan, etc.

Go figure Chinese-cu culture and society.  I haven't.  It sucks.

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