From: indu@iss700.Columbia.NCR.COM ()
Subject: ANSWERE THOSE QUESTIONS (was Re: Talaq over Phone)
Originator: indu@iss700
Organization: NCR Corp, E&M-Columbia, Columbia, SC
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 92 18:38:05 GMT

To: ahmed-shakil@cs.yale.edu
Subject: Re: Talaq over Phone (I recieved a personal Mail)

In article <1e1a3cINNek6@CURIE.SYSTEMSY.CS.YALE.EDU> you write:
>In indu@iss700.Columbia.NCR.COM () writes:
>
>> To: ahmed-shakil@cs.yale.edu
>> In article <1dsc13INN9s9@CURIE.SYSTEMSY.CS.YALE.EDU> you write:
>> >In indu@iss700.Columbia.NCR.COM () writes:

>> >Doesn't say much about the books you read or the people you talk to... :)
>>  Atleast I'm open to truth, from which ever source they come from. Even from 
>>  you. 
>
>Apparently not, as this article shows.  You completely ignore the facts I 
>presented.  

   Why should I take to your  opinions on Ahmed Deedat and Anis Shorrosh
   which by themself are based in T.V. talk shows? ;-)
 
>> >I can't believe you actually have the nerve to post anything by Anis
>> >Shorrosh.  Ahmed Deedat put him in his place so many times, and he
>> >keeps coming back for more.  I strongly recommend that you watch some
>> >of the videos of their debates in various parts of the world.  I
>> >almost felt sorry for Shorrosh at the end -- the guy just didn't stand
>> >a chance...
>> 
>> Cool. Even Anis Shorrosh talks about Anwar Deedat the same way. (Since I'm
>> no supporter of Anis, I'm not mush concerned with his interpratation.
>> All I 'm doing is to use his books for getting certain facts). Facts 
>> remain facts, whether spoken by Anwar Deedat or Anis Shorrosh. (By the way,
>> when my friend gave me this book and said - what have got with these two 
>> guys.  All we need is facts. Thats it.)
>
>Again, I suggest you watch the video tapes and you will see for
>yourself.  The name is "Ahmed Deedat," not "Anwar Deedat."  This is
>only the Nth time you mess up his name -- doesn't say much for your
>credibility...

  Shakil! Looks like you are out for petty arguments and trying to score
  some silly points, and over looking the actual contents. Go ahead man.
  For your odd crap here, READ THE ABOVE LINES AGAIN AND AGAIN till they  
  sink into your head.  Looks like you are over-obsessed with the effect of 
  Anis Shorrosh. Talk about facts. Have you got any mental block against 
  facts based on the SOURCE OF THE FACTS? Looks so. The way you are trying to
  beat around and are evading the QUESTIONS? Gas ?  Ha ha haa :-)

>> >>     The fifth wife - Zainab, His Adopted son's Ex-wife
>> >As far as I know, Islam doesn't allow "adoption" in the technical
>> >sense of the word, but it does allow fostering.  The two are not the
>> >same.  Your original claim was that he married his son's wife.  Now it
>> >suddenly has become his "adopted" son.  Do you really know what you're
>> >talking about?
>>    Why is it so suddenly?      Are you finding it hard to digest? How does 
>>    an Adopted son differ from "son"? When Muhammad himself conceded that 
>>    marrying a Son's wife is a thing is Unheard of? What about that?
>
>*You* are the one who suddenly changed his statement.  First you speak
>of his son.  Then you change it to "adopted son."  So you were wrong
>to begin with?  You don't know the difference between an adopted son
>and a real son?  I can't believe I'm actually having to explain this
> ...
>"adopted" child in Islam exists only in the sense of fostering, and
>this has nothing to do with biological relations.  Hence, marrying the
>ex-wife of an "adopted" son is perfectly legitimate.
>
>Is this really so difficult to comprehend?

   Not at all man. As per the well established systems known to me till date 
   in the world, generally speaking  there is not  much of a difference in 
   treatments offered to Son and Son.adopted. Any way, that is basically 
   not the  contention of this argument. I'm posing you those questions again.
   (By the way, when I posted the  original question  of gthe  various facts 
    I was talking I wrote this as on small point. Finally you have accepted that
    he has married his SON's wife (adopted). Stay cool now.)

>   1. Is Zeyd an Adopted son of Muhammad? (Or any relation ship, which
>      finally boils down to the present day understanding of "Adopted Son" 
>      concept.)
>   2. Is Zainab, Zeyd's wife?
>   3. By the time Muhammad went to Zeyd's house, was he already married to 
>      4 women?
>   4. Did Muhammad praise Zainab's beauty (whose transaltion was provided
       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>      in Anis Shorrosh's book; included in my previous posting)?
>   5. Did Zainab tell about this to her HUSBAND, Zeyd?
>   6. Did Zeyd immediately go and offer a divorce to his wife, so that Muhammad
>      can accept her as wife?
>   7. Did Muhammad say "It is a thing unheard of"? (at this stage; by the way, 
       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>      you have already said a YES to this, in your previous posting)?
>   8. And was he willing to marry or reluctant to marry (at this stage)
>
>   9. When did Allah reveal to Muhammad that, "He can marry more than 4 wives,
>      he should take Zainab, His wives are not allowed to marry anybody else
>      after Muhammad's death"? 
>      Was it before these incidents (above mentioned 7) or while this proposal
>      was under progress or after that?
>
 

   Your ingnoring these very basic questions  talk of the strength of 
   your  arguments.

   NOTE THE QUESTION NUMBER 3 and 7. Very important statements  which YOU
   are evading.

   I have this new question. So, can a guy marry his 
   foster mother? That is a woman who has adopted a small kid and
   brings him up?

   ( anyway thanks in advance for this info .)

>The footnote says:
>"Zayd's marriage with the Prophet's cousin Zaynab, daughter of Jahsh,
>did not turn out happy.  Zaynab the high-born looked down upon Zayd
> ....

  That foot notes  mean that they are that fellows interpretations. 
  ARE THESE WRITTEN IN QURAN or any of Islamic texts? 
  (Please answere yes or no. Then proceed with  your regular trash)

>>    I would like to make my personal assessment of Anis Shorrosh.
>All your questions are completely irrelevant if only you would
>understand the obvious facts above.

  Irrelevant or not is NOT your botheration. Why are you worried about how 
  I'm  going judge Anis Shorrosh?  I'm not like some of those guys who develop
  their opinions about literary stuff, seeing some T.V.Ads and sponsored shows.
  If you have the  nerve try  answering those questions?

>> >> IS Anis Shorrosh wrong in his RESEARCH on Islam? 
>> >Anis Shorrosh is pathetically wrong.  Just how wrong will become clear
>> >when you watch his debates with Ahmed Deedat.
>>   
>>   Where and why? I'm not much  concerned about Deedat-Anis debates or 
>>   T.V shows. ALL I WANT TO KNOW IS WHERE IS HE WRONG IN HIS FACTS?  I'm not 
>>   concerned about their interpretations w.r.t. to his  missionary
>>   objectives. 
>
>Please watch the videos, and you will see just *how* wrong he is in
>his *facts*.

                *******************************
>>   Where and why? I'm not much  concerned about Deedat-Anis debates or 
>>   T.V shows. ALL I WANT TO KNOW IS WHERE IS HE WRONG IN HIS FACTS?  I'm not 
>Please watch the videos, and you will see just *how* wrong he is in
                ********************************
  Shakil.  Just read the above two picked from the previous postings. Do 
  you make any sense atleast to yourself? 

>>     As  for your comment that Islam does not accept other faiths, but then  
>>     one is not forced to it  (in some previous thread) I'll be posting 
>>     the attacks carried on by Muhammad and  the destruction of Temples in 
>>     Mecca,  Medina and other places. Killings of Jews, who have refused to 
>>     take Islam. (I read some where that he broke off an Idol of Pigeon
>>     and got some 360 Idols broken). FROM THE VERY SAME BOOK, by Anis. 
>
>And you're PROUD of the fact that you're going to use the same
>book?????  Some people never learn...

   If you want to spread false hoods with your bullshit in between go ahead.
   The net is free for all.  If you want to have any credibility ANSWERE THOSE 
   QUESTIONS?

>Please be sure to talk about how the BJP is trying to dismantle a
>mosque in India.  And don't forget to tell us about how the Jews to

   Yeah! Yeah!! TRy pulling in evry damn argument where you think YOU can 
   talk on. First ansere those questions. And try to answere the article 
   the Battles undertaken by Muhammad. 
   
>this day maintain that historically, they lived best under the Moors.
>Make sure you don't leave out the fact that when the Jews fled from
>the Spanish Inquisition, they fled to Muslim lands because those were
>the only places the Jews were welcomed.  And while you're on the topic of

   Please man! there is a limit. India is the first  country in the  WORLD,
   where Jews could settle peacefully (500 years back).

>forced conversions, I'm sure you will not forget South and North
>America.

    Before all these, make yourself sure to answere the QUESTIONS, straight.

>-- Shakil Ahmed
-Indu.
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
|  My  views expressed above are made on a PERSONAL basis              |
|  No Group or  Organization   can be held responsible                 |
|                                ( for those in quest of truth .......)|
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