HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: gmclucki@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Gemma McLuckie)
Subject: Re: civil war connections
Organization: The Ohio State University
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 18:21:06 GMT

In article <1992Sep4.151849.20159@tss.com> burke@tss.com (Jim Burke) writes:
In my own family, there is the story of my great-great-grandfather, Moses Burk
e.
>He decided to join the Union army.  One day he received word that his wife had
>given birth to their new baby, so he hid his rifle and went back home for a
>couple of weeks to see his wife and baby.  When he got back he was arrested
>and put in the brig for two weeks.  He didn't get in trouble for going awol,
>but rather for losing his rifle.  Turns out somebody discovered his rifle and
>turned it in.  It was a big no-no to lose your rifle so he did two weeks on
>bread and water for it.

Gosh, what a great story about Moses Burke going home to see his baby and 
losing his rifle! I guess it shows how homesick these guys were, and
how important their families were to them.  It also puts another light on the
stats about desertions.

And it seems that the Army is the Army, no matter what era you talk about.  You
get in trouble for violations of the wierdest regulations.

Thanks for sharing it.
Gemma McLuckie
Newsgroups: alt.war.civil.usa
From: gmclucki@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Gemma McLuckie)
Subject: Re: smoothbores, foriegn soldiers and enlistments
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 20:19:30 GMT

In article <Bu0KCz.F1s@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> tbarnes@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (
thomas wrentmore barnes) writes:
>   Did Florence Nightingale visit the U.S. before or during the ACW or
>had she died by then? I can't remember.

Hum-m-m. Good question. My memory is that Nightingale's health was broken in 
the Crimea, and when she returned she was more or less an invalid.  I don't 
think that she visited the U.S. However, that could be incorrect.

Have you ever read about Mary "Mother" Bickerdike, who created her own 
one-woman field hospital in the western theater?  After one battle, she arrived 
with blankets for the wounded, and a small amount of food. When she ran out of 
blankets, she packed men in straw to keep them warm and stretched the food into 
a watery soup.  The soldiers credited her efforts that night in saving many men 
from freezing to death.

I always picture her as a clone of my grandmother and my Aunt Irene --
country women with physical strength and the ingenuity to make do with very
little.  I'll have to read up on Mother Bickerdike again. It's been too long.

Gemma McLuckie
From: cjt1@ellis.uchicago.edu (Charles Ten Brink)
Subject: Re: smoothbores, foriegn soldiers and enlistments
Reply-To: cjt1@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 21:47:23 GMT

In article <1992Sep3.201930.1091@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> gmclucki@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Gemma McLuckie) writes:
>Hum-m-m. Good question. My memory is that Nightingale's health was broken in 
>the Crimea, and when she returned she was more or less an invalid.  I don't 
>think that she visited the U.S. However, that could be incorrect.

She took to her bed in 1857, and died in 1910, but continued to be a very
active campaigner for nursing education and better care for the British
army.  I find no mention of her ever visiting the U.S.

>Have you ever read about Mary "Mother" Bickerdike, who created her own 
>one-woman field hospital in the western theater?

A fascinating character; she always refused to talk about her work after
the War, saying that she served in many battles, did the work of one 
person, and tried to do it well.  Does anyone know of any good books,
articles, etc., about her?  I've reason to believe that my g-g-
grandmother worked with her in Corinth, Mississippi, so I would like
to find out more.
--Chuck



-- 
D'Angelo Law Library         "The dogmas of the quiet past are
cjt1@midway.uchicago.edu      inadequate to the stormy present. . .
uclcjt1@uchimvs1              We must disenthrall ourselves."
Newsgroups: alt.war.civil.usa
From: morphy@cco.caltech.edu (Jones Maxime Murphy)
Subject: Re: What the FAQ?
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 23:01:02 GMT

whale@leland.Stanford.EDU (Stephen Schmidt) writes:

>>KILL away, white man. The truth lives on.

>Note that Mr. Murphy implies a racial cast to his opinions by assuming
>that his opponent must be white. I know that's not true for at least one
>of the people he's been flaming.

Not all Negrophobes are white, I agree.
Jones
-- 
Jones M Murphy Jr                                        (212) 602-4375
NatWest Investment Bancorp, National Westminster Bank PLC
100 Wall Street, New York, NY10005                   FAX (212) 269-0113
Newsgroups: alt.war.civil.usa
From: morphy@cco.caltech.edu (Jones Maxime Murphy)
Subject: Re: Jones Murphy and the charter of this group
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 19:36:53 GMT

bjm1@Ra.MsState.Edu (Bobbie J. Mann) writes:

>I don't mind Jones' opinion, quite the contrary, I want to know his opinion
>and thoughts, but I don't want to hear them the way he presents them.  I don't
>want him "preaching" to me or talking down to me.  As one poster (i forgot who,
>sorry) mentioned earlier, the tones of his posts tend to turn people away
>rather than have them listen.  It did for me.  I chimed in on the flag thing
>to give me opinion, and shots were fired back thicker than those in the Hornet's
>nest in Shiloh.
>I want his opinion, just in a more civil (ughn) tone.

My posts are calibrated to the posts I respond to. You can count on that. Try
not talking down to me, and you'll find that I won't rip you to shreds. 
Otherwise....
Jones
-- 
Jones M Murphy Jr                                        (212) 602-4375
NatWest Investment Bancorp, National Westminster Bank PLC
100 Wall Street, New York, NY10005                   FAX (212) 269-0113
From: zursch@whizkid.wpd.sgi.com (Jeffrey B. Zurschmeide)
Newsgroups: alt.war.civil.usa
Subject: Re: Smoking the peace pipe
Date: 28 Aug 92 22:40:49 GMT
Reply-To: zursch@whizkid.wpd.sgi.com (Jeffrey B. Zurschmeide)
Organization: SGI TechPubs

In article <1992Aug28.201156.7582@leland.Stanford.EDU>, Stephen Schmidt writes:
>What can you do when the person insists on making smart-ass comments in his
>alleged peace messages?
>Steve Schmidt			<><		   whale@leland.stanford.edu
                                        ^^^
Steve, what does the above symbol in your .signature mean?

JZ 
Newsgroups: alt.war.civil.usa
From: morphy@cco.caltech.edu (Jones Maxime Murphy)
Subject: Re: Industrialization
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 18:44:33 GMT

whale@leland.Stanford.EDU (Stephen Schmidt) writes:

>Several people have made comments regarding the date of the beginning of
>industrialization in England.
>  Industrialization began in England sometime around the early 1600's (one
>cannot pin down an exact date, obviously) with the development of the putting-
>out system of production, and the rise of intercity trade in commodities (as
>opposed to raw materials). These two developments marked the beginnings of
>specialization of individuals and regions into manufacturing particular
>commodities, forming industries (hence the name). Thus, the Mayflower era

This is a curious and interesting viewpoint. It means that Western Africa was
also industrialized when the Europeans arrived.

>is somewhere around the beginning of industrialization.
>  I think some people are confusing the beginnings of industrialization with
>the development of large factories, which occured starting around 1750. The
>development of factories occurred considerably after the development of an
>industrial structure.

But that is what is referred to as the Industrial Revolution, I'm afraid. Your
definition is reasonable but unconventional.
Jones
-- 
Jones M Murphy Jr                                        (212) 602-4375
NatWest Investment Bancorp, National Westminster Bank PLC
100 Wall Street, New York, NY10005                   FAX (212) 269-0113
From: bjm1@Ra.MsState.Edu (Bobbie J. Mann)
Newsgroups: alt.war.civil.usa
Subject: Re: Jones Murphy and the charter of this group
Date: 27 Aug 92 05:40:23 GMT
Organization: Mississippi State University

zursch@whizkid.wpd.sgi.com (Jeff Zurschmeide) writes:

>Folks, 

>   I've been reading the posts from Jones M. Murphy with some interest, as
>I'm sure the rest of you have been, too. Some of you have even had your
>blood pressure raised by his posts and have put him in a kill file. 

>I think Jones raises many good points about the nature of the Civil War
>and the nature of our nation's history. I don't see why it gets 
>people so hot under the collar. 

>You don't have to agree with every point he makes or every word he says
>to see the truths he is trying to get at.  Read his words to understand
>the truth as he sees it. His point of view is shared by millions of people
>in this country, and deserves serious consideration. 

>In particular, his point about the deaths due to slavery far outpacing
>those between 1861 and 1865 is very well taken. 

>I think Jones has made excellent points and has served as a conscience
>for this group. A voice that will not let us forget or "back-burner" 
>the millions of slaves and free blacks who were involved in the Civil
>War and the events that led up to it. Those people need a voice in any
>discussion of this war, and Jones is our voice. I wouldn't expect that voice
>to always speak in pleasant tones. 

I don't mind Jones' opinion, quite the contrary, I want to know his opinion
and thoughts, but I don't want to hear them the way he presents them.  I don't
want him "preaching" to me or talking down to me.  As one poster (i forgot who,
sorry) mentioned earlier, the tones of his posts tend to turn people away
rather than have them listen.  It did for me.  I chimed in on the flag thing
to give me opinion, and shots were fired back thicker than those in the Hornet's
nest in Shiloh.
I want his opinion, just in a more civil (ughn) tone.

Roland
(Bobbie is my wife...this is her account)

>JZ
Newsgroups: alt.war.civil.usa
From: casper@vxcrna.cern.ch (CASPER,DAVI./PPE)
Subject: Re: Jones M. Murphy and the charter of this group
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: European Organization for Nuclear Research, CERN
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1992 12:06:00 GMT

In article <1992Aug28.151047.1@cc.uvcc.edu>, jeromema@cc.uvcc.edu writes...
>In article <1992Aug28.130948.1@cc.uvcc.edu>, jeromema@cc.uvcc.edu writes:
> 
>Let me say, like Jeff Zurschmeide, that, although I accept Jones Murphy's posts,
>I don't necessarily go along with his presentation of them in all cases.  I don't
>think that slamming is appropriate, and that the discussion needs to remain civil.
>In the same vain, I don't appreciate the responses of individuals like Dave Casper,
>who appears to have taken it upon himself to lash back at Jones Murphy.

If you have been following this discussion, which is admittedly difficult, you
will remember that I started out by agreeing with Jones.  Then I suggested he
moderate his tone in a manner which would be more effective at having a
topical discussion and focus attention on whatever valid points he may
make rather than his rudeness and arrogance.  His responses in every case have
been to hurl back invective and insults.  Enough is enough.  Turning our
collective cheeks to Mr. Murphy apparently doesn't work, so now I am telling
him he can plant a big fat kiss between a certain two of mine.


Dave Casper
CERN - Geneva
casper@vxcrna.cern.ch
From: jthoppers@OCTAVO
Newsgroups: alt.war.civil.usa
Subject: Re: Aiming at flagbearers.
Date: 3 Sep 92 13:29:12 GMT
Reply-To: jthoppers@OCTAVO

There can be a case made for the tactical significance of shooting/
capturing the enemy colors in civil war battles. The colors were unit 
markers, telling you where you were supposed to be in the din and smoke. 
That's why the flags need to be large and bright. If the colors are shot 
down (and the color bearer with them) or captured, it makes it more 
difficult to position units, and makes it harder for officers to see where 
their men are. Furthermore, there are numerous accounts of units holding their 
fire until they could make out an opponents colors, particullarly early in 
the war when there were a variety of uniforms, including Union units in 
grey and Confederate units in blue (note: my use of the word unit is in
the general and not military sense).

P.S. Yep, it was the defeat of the legions of Varus in the Teutoburger 
Forest, by Germanic tribes under the command of Hermann (Ariminius) 
which led to the loss of three standards. The emperor Augustus was so 
outraged by the loss that he stormed through the imperial residence in 
Rome shouting, "Varus, give me back my eagles!" .
Newsgroups: alt.war.civil.usa
From: whale@leland.Stanford.EDU (Stephen Schmidt)
Subject: Re: Smoking the peace pipe
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 92 20:11:56 GMT

In article <1992Aug28.194003.14064@cco.caltech.edu> morphy@cco.caltech.edu (Jones Maxime Murphy) writes:
>jthoppers@OCTAVO writes:
>
>>Gentlemen,
>>I do not doubt that all of us possess ample gifts of intellect and 
>>expression. Is there any chance that we might call a truce in honor 
>>of those gifts and our interest in a common period of human history?
>
>By all means. I'd be happy to stop insulting my hapless opponents if they stop
>insulting me.

What can you do when the person insists on making smart-ass comments in his
alleged peace messages?


-- 
Steve Schmidt			<><		   whale@leland.stanford.edu

"We have met the enemy and he is us" - Walt Kelly
Newsgroups: alt.war.civil.usa
From: morphy@cco.caltech.edu (Jones Maxime Murphy)
Subject: Africans: The Biggest Ethnic Group in America??
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 22:43:56 GMT

whale@leland.Stanford.EDU (Stephen Schmidt) writes:

>>The absence of AFrican History courses in your University is not surprising,
>>although Africans are the largest ethnic group in the US. It is a continuation
>>of the great American race war on the intellectual front.

>Africans are by no means the largest ethnic group in the United States.
>Larger ones are Germans, English, Irish, and Hispanic. You can't even claim
>this to be racist, since the history of white aggression is at least as bad on
>the Hispanics as on the Africans.

That's absurd, since white Hispanics started slavery! Hispanic is a silly term,
fully analogous to calling me Anglo-Saxon since I was born in the British 
Empire. Perhaps you mean Native Americans/Mestizos/Zambos(Black/Native).

According to conservative Negro Thomas Sowell's "Ethnic America:A History", 
AFricans are the largest ethnic group in the US, followed by the Germans and
the English. This is despite the massive undercounting of Africans which the
Census Bureau admits to doing every year.

>Also, Asians will catch and pass Africans sometime in the next 10 years or so.

This is quite unlikely, based on Sowell's numbers. Latin Americans look to be
the closest to catching Africans, since all the other groups have lower
birthrates.

>>That's neither here nor there, as far as this discussion is concerned. Between
>>1625 and 1775, England vastly expanded it's colonizing and enslaving, stealing
>>a vast amount of wealth and labor from other nations. That was key in securing
>>the explosive growth of industry in England.

>Again I find this view excessively narrow. It was a key, but it was not the
>only one.

I said it was "key", not "the only" key. Without it the English would have been
forced to work, and it's fate would have been uncertain. What's so narrow?
Jones
-- 
Jones M Murphy Jr                                        (212) 602-4375
NatWest Investment Bancorp, National Westminster Bank PLC
100 Wall Street, New York, NY10005                   FAX (212) 269-0113
Newsgroups: alt.war.civil.usa
From: KARLIN@BNLCL6.BNL.GOV (P.L. Cowan)
Subject: Re: Howard
Summary: Howard's role at Gettysburg.
Keywords: Gen. O.O. Howard, Gettysburg, Union Army
Reply-To: COWAN@ANL.GOV
Organization: BROOKHAVEN NATIONAL LABORATORY
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 14:21:21 GMT
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.23

In <5521@ucsbcsl.ucsb.edu> tecump@ucsb.edu writes:

: 
: O.O. Howard was a good officer.  he just happened to be commander
: of the XI corps, the hardest luck regiment in the Aof the Pot. which
: always happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.  
: 

If my posts reflected a negative judgment of Gen. Howard abilities, I regret
it. My original point was that I have noted a difference in the performance of
the Union Army as a whole at Gettysburg relative to previous battles, in that
they were better able to adapt and recover from mistakes (whether made through
bad judgement or "hard luck"). The history of the Union Army in the east prior
to Gettysburg was that when mistakes were made by their commanders (as is
inevitable in war) the subsequent decisions only seemed to exacerbate the
situation. At Gettysburg mistakes were made, but were reasonably well
compensated for. If Howard made a mistake in committing either too many or too
few troops to the north of town (as many before me have argued), he did (with
Hancock's help) make the best of a bad situation by reforming on the best
available defensive position.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
P. L. Cowan	Please send replies, comments etc. (no flames thank you) to 
COWAN@ANL.GOV 	(I'm posting this from a friend's account)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: alt.war.civil.usa
From: jmm@world.std.com (Jones M Murphy)
Subject: Re: Pride goeth before the fall (and hopefully Jones Murphy will too)
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 00:55:25 GMT

hubcap@hubcap.clemson.edu (System Janitor) writes:

>morphy@cco.caltech.edu (Jones Maxime Murphy) said:
>My SATs were perfect, kiddo.
>My intelligence dwarfs yours, whitey.
>(I) make so much more (money) than you.
>(I am) smarter than you are and better educated,
>Choke, spew, dribble, gack, cough, BARF!

But wait. Casper the friendless goat writes:
>My SATs were higher than yours, negro.
>I won lots of writing awards.
>My intelligence dwarfs yours, negro.
>You're a wall St larva, I'm probing the fundamental forces of the universe.
>Physicists make more that investment bankers on Wall St.

Where's the barf, Mr Janitor? Ah, swallowed it all up. Oh, well....

>Dude. You are clinical. You need some help. I bet you keep your
>terminal screen really clean so you can see yourself in it. If you are
>going to continue spewing your drivel in this group, do you think you 
>could stick to the subject? You have actually made intelligent points
>several times along the way (probably read them somewhere :-).

Hey, Casper, I hope you're listening....

>I can get alt.fan.murphy created for you if you'd like.

Why gee, thanks...
Jones
-- 
********************************************************************************

Jones M Murphy, Jr
Associate, Derivative Products Group
Newsgroups: alt.war.civil.usa
From: trev@hubcap.clemson.edu (Trevor Bauknight)
Subject: Re: What the FAQ?
Organization: Jes Grew Carriers -- Metaphysical Bunko Squad 
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 01:20:07 GMT

morphy@cco.caltech.edu (Jones Maxime Murphy) writes:

>I did *not*. The ideals of the USA were not nearly as explicitly racist as 

Actually, I asked you if you would not question the legitimacy of the USA
with the same ease as you dismissed the legitimacy of the CSA, since the
USA is, even today, filled with extreme hatred and oppression of blacks,
and the first think Jones ever wrote in response to me was something like
"Agreed...point well taken."

>somewhat under the table. The CSA had no such reservations.

Frankly, I'm surprised that you would rather racism be "under the table"
rather than out in the open where you would at least know who your enemies
were...
 
Trevor Bauknight         trev@hubcap.clemson.edu    ...gatech!hubcap!trev
 
                                                     +-----------+
                                                     | _> ###    |
                  fish on                            |     |     |
                                                     +-----------+
Newsgroups: alt.war.civil.usa
From: whale@leland.Stanford.EDU (Stephen Schmidt)
Subject: Re: Industrialization
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 92 20:38:07 GMT

In article <1992Aug27.184433.23445@cco.caltech.edu> morphy@cco.caltech.edu (Jones Maxime Murphy) writes:
>whale@leland.Stanford.EDU (Stephen Schmidt) writes:
>
>>Several people have made comments regarding the date of the beginning of
>>industrialization in England.
>>  Industrialization began in England sometime around the early 1600's (one
>cannot pin down an exact date, obviously) with the development of the putting-
>>out system of production, and the rise of intercity trade in commodities (as
>>opposed to raw materials). These two developments marked the beginnings of
>>specialization of individuals and regions into manufacturing particular
>>commodities, forming industries (hence the name). Thus, the Mayflower era
>
>This is a curious and interesting viewpoint. It means that Western Africa was
>also industrialized when the Europeans arrived.

I don't think that Western Africa had developed the regional specialties, and
I'm pretty sure they didn't have the putting-out system of production.  My
knowledge of Western Africa is sadly limited (no courses in African economic
history here, which I'm sure will displease Mr. Murphy) so if Mr. Murphy
can post some further information he can probably convince me otherwise.
>
>>is somewhere around the beginning of industrialization.
>>  I think some people are confusing the beginnings of industrialization with
>>the development of large factories, which occured starting around 1750. The
>>development of factories occurred considerably after the development of an
>>industrial structure.
>
>But that is what is referred to as the Industrial Revolution, I'm afraid. Your
>definition is reasonable but unconventional.

The original poster mentioned industrialization, not the Industrial Revolution.
The idea of an Industrial Revolution has been significantly downplayed in
the last ten years. The stylized facts used to be that England underwent a
major change in the mid 1700's, but on close examination that turned out
not to be true; the changes leading to industrialization were not
"revolutionary" but were introduced over a period of 150 years or so, between
about 1625 and about 1775. The research on this is all from the 1980's, so
people who went through school before then wouldn't have caught it unless
they keep up with the economic history literature. My definition wasn't
conventional in 1980, but has since become so. It hasn't worked its way
down past the academic community very far, I guess. It will as people start
re-writing the textbooks.
-- 
Steve Schmidt			<><		   whale@leland.stanford.edu

"We have met the enemy and he is us" - Walt Kelly