HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
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Date:         Thu, 9 Apr 1992 09:09:16 EDT
From:         Michael Cammer <cammer@AECOM.YU.EDU>
Subject:      Re: historically accurate TV
Comments: To: HISTORY@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu
              Apr 8, 92 9:36 am

Lenny Abbey writes:
>
> Denis, I don't understand the connection between "Southern womanhood" and
> advocacy of the slavery principle in the South.
>
> Lenny
>
See Genovese(s) on political economy of slavery.

--
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Date:         Wed, 8 Apr 1992 09:35:22 +1000
From:         Marion Diamond <med@LINGUA.CLTR.UQ.OZ.AU>
Subject: Re: Immigrant Literature
Comments: To: HISTORY%RUTVM1.BITNET@pucc.Princeton.EDU

Further to my posting on immigrants and what they read:
I recommend:
John M MacKenzie: Imperialism and popular culture (NY: St Martin's Press, 1989)
John M MacKenzie: Propaganda and empire: the manipulation of British public
opinion 1880-1960 (Manchester University Press, 1984)
and particularly:
J.M.Powell: Mirrors of the New World: images and image-makers in the setlement
process (Canberra, ANU Press, 1978)

Marion Diamond
med@lingua.cltr.uq.oz.au
From: rbp@SUTRO.SFSU.EDU (Robert B. Pasker)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Subject: Re: Seeking suggestions for Am. History Course Books
Date: 8 Apr 92 16:05:54 GMT
Article-I.D.: sutro.9204081605.AA27850
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Comments: To: HISTORY%RUTVM1.BitNet@pucc.princeton.edu
              at Apr 8, 92 10:17 am

> Mike McCarthy writes
>         I am seeking suggestions for supplementary reading books -- essay
> collections, novels, secondary sources, etc., but not textbooks -- for a
> 300-level (Junior) survey course on American History Since 1877.
>         All help is appreciated.

while not strictly what you're looking for, a halfway point between a
textbook and supplimentary material is wheeler & becker, _discovering
the american past: a look at the evidence_, (new york: houghton
mifflin, 1990).  each chapter has a problem staement, historical
background, a descritpion of a type of historical methodology to be
used with the accompanying evidence, the evidence itself, [good]
questions, and an epilogue.

an excellent work on the red scare is stanley kutler, _the american
inquision_ (new ywork: hill & wang, 1989).  it has 8 essays on
different people who were affected by the witchhunts.

moses rischin's _the promised city_ (cambridge: harvard u. press,
1977) is a wonderful book on the immigration of jews into new york
(1870-1914). also john higham's _strangers in the land_ (new bruswick
NJ: rutgers, 1988) is an excellent account of post civil war american
nativism.

maya angelou's _i know why the caged bird sings_ (ny: random house,
1988) is an excellent account of one girl's experience with black
migrations and its effects.

angela y. davis's _women culture & politics_ is another excellent 1st
person account of 20th C afro-american culture/experience.

i've got plenty more.  what topic areas?

- bob pasker
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Date:         Tue, 14 Apr 1992 12:58:18 -0700
Comments:     Warning -- original Sender: tag was FERRILL@CAESAR
From:         Arther Ferrill <ferrill@U.WASHINGTON.EDU>
Subject:      re: Latin word
Comments: To: History <HISTORY%RUTVM1.BITNET@uwavm.u.washington.edu>

On Tue, 14 Apr 1992 14:29:03 CST, Pilgrim wrote:

>     Can anyone tell me the meanings of the word "admitti?" It would seem to
> bea form of "admisso," but I cannot figure out what form; nor can I find in
> the Vulgate. Thanx for your help.
>
Isn't that the passive present infinitive--to be admitted?
Art Ferrill
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Date:         Fri, 17 Apr 1992 12:27:25 EDT
From:         508-392-2990 Dave Davis <daved@WESTFORD.CCUR.COM>
Subject: Re: Clinton's Platform is . . .?
Comments: To: History <HISTORY@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu>

Lenny Abbey <LABBEY%GTRI01.BITNET@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu> writes,

>      1.  Does anyone know what Clinton's platform is?

I have the 3-4 page flyer from the campaign folks. I called and asked.
Beyond that, there may be position papers, but I think there's mostly
speeches.

>      2.  Does anyone else have the feeling that the press is
>          deliberately ignoring his reluctance to discuss his
>          platform.  Or are they for some reason refusing to
>          report on his platform in spite of the fact that he
>          has revealed it?

The general shape of the Clinton program is readable, I'd say. My guess
is that it's too early for media to start us chewing on it. They've got
papers to sell; the platform is only interesting once. The primaries are
the story, until after California. Then the covention. Then Labor Day
(nothing happens). Then all hell breaks loose.

If I get five e-mail responses asking me to post the position paper
to this list, I will. Arbitrary justification: It will be 'historical'
soon enough, one way or the other. We could try and talk about the
historical context of the 'platform' (in its current incarnation)...


	Dave Davis

Random QOTD:

All goods look better when they look like gifts.
		GKC
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Date:         Mon, 6 Apr 1992 08:07:40 -0500
From:         mlove@UX1.CSO.UIUC.EDU
Subject:      Re: Latin Dictionary
Comments: To: History <HISTORY@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>

TO:  Lynn Nelson

I would appreciate a copy of your Latin-English word list.
Sharon D. Michalove
Academic Advisor, Department of History, UIUC
309 Gregory Hall, 810 South Wright Street
Urbana, IL  61801
217-333-4145
mlove@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu

******************************************
"There is, indeed, no single quality of the cat
 that man could not emulate to his advantage."
        	       	       	       	   Carl van Vechten
*******************************************
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Date:         Fri, 17 Apr 1992 14:16:00 EDT
From:         DGPAZ@CLEMSON.BITNET
Subject: Re: Clinton's Platform is . . .?

 I have read all sorts of news stories and op-ed pieces on
Clinton's policies (not to mention Bush's, Brown's, Buchanan's,
Tsongas', Duke's) in the _New York Times_, the _Greenville News_,
the _Anderson Independent-Mail_, _Time_, _Newsweek_, the
_Washington Post_ weekly edition, the _New York Review of Books_,
and the _Nation_, and I have heard numerous reports on both
"Morning Edition" and "All Things Considered."

PLEASE, PLEASE, DO NOT POST CLINTON'S POSITION PAPERS, OR ANYONE
ELSE'S, ON THIS LIST.

Denis Paz
Department of History
Clemson University
South Carolina, U.S.A.
dgpaz@clemson.bitnet
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Date:         Mon, 6 Apr 1992 14:53:00 EDT
From:         "Glenn R. Greene" <U953117@RUTADMIN.BITNET>
Subject:      Visiting Ireland

Hello everybody,
  Let me apologize for using the list in this way but I don't seem to
be able to deliver my mail directly to those folks in Ireland whose
addresses I've pulled off the list.
  Anyway, I'm going to Ireland next week to investigat my heritage
and have as much fun as possible, and I'm looking for some first hand
views on historical sights, goods pubs, interesting events happening
during Holy Week, or anything else that might be interesting to do
or see.  My trip is very free form but will be in the south western
area of the country, including Galway, Cork, Kerry, Kilarney, etc.
  Maybe this can spur a discussion of Irish history, and since I'm
not asking for donations I won't feel too guilty about using the
list like this.

                                             Thanks,
                                             Glenn Greene
                                             Rutgers University
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Date:         Wed, 8 Apr 1992 19:53:38 CST
From:         LHNELSON --UKANVM <LHNELSON@UKANVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Latin Word List, FTP Malin, etc.

My apologies to those of you who tried unsuccessfully to utilize MALIN.
I won't burden you with the intricacies of what seems to have happened,
but I will confer with kuhub as soon as possible to rectify it.

Lynn

Lynn_Nelson
Department of History
University of Kansas
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Date:         Mon, 6 Apr 1992 14:43:21 -0500
From:         mlove@UX1.CSO.UIUC.EDU
Subject:      Re: History through Films
Comments: To: History <HISTORY@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>

 for stuff with a
>similar tone there's a wonderful movie by Eisenstein named after its
>hero that I'm blanking on right now - incredible Russian revolutionary
>socialist cinema with a very famous and awesome cavalry vs. footsoldier
>battle on ice at the end - Rubelov??

The film is Alexander Nevsky with the score by Prokofiev.
Sharon D. Michalove
Academic Advisor, Department of History, UIUC
309 Gregory Hall, 810 South Wright Street
Urbana, IL  61801
217-333-4145
mlove@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu

******************************************
"There is, indeed, no single quality of the cat
 that man could not emulate to his advantage."
        	       	       	       	   Carl van Vechten
*******************************************
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Date:         Mon, 6 Apr 1992 18:37:53 -0400
From:         Agnes Kruchio <kruchio@EPAS.UTORONTO.CA>
Subject:      Re: Latin Dictionary
Comments: To: HISTORY@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu
              "mlove@UX1.CSO.UIUC.EDU" at Apr 6, 92 8:07 am

>
> TO:  Lynn Nelson
>
> I would appreciate a copy of your Latin-English word list.
> Sharon D. Michalove
> Academic Advisor, Department of History, UIUC
> 309 Gregory Hall, 810 South Wright Street
> Urbana, IL  61801
> 217-333-4145
> mlove@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu
>
> ******************************************
> "There is, indeed, no single quality of the cat
>  that man could not emulate to his advantage."
>         	       	       	       	   Carl van Vechten
> *******************************************
>
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Date:         Tue, 7 Apr 1992 08:09:54 EDT
From:         Ken Koester <MAINT2@ERS.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: films & history

On Mon, 6 Apr 1992 13:36:00 EDT <DGPAZ@CLEMSON> said:
>On Mon, 6 Apr 1992 08:13:07 PDT bob pasker <halfdome!bob@APPLE.COM> said:
>
>> contemporary novels are wonderful ways to understand a time period or
>> an issue. ... they're untrue, but they tell us
>> about the times.  when reading such works we have to be able to
>> discern the truth from the fantasy, but if we ignore literature as
>> history we lose an important tool.
>
>I could not agree with you more. The trick is to read the novels
>from a grounding in the history of the society that produced the
>novels.
>
Sounds like circular reasoning to me:  you read history in order to be able
to read a novel in order to understand history in order to. . . .  Actually,
I don't think you gain as much from this process as you'd like to think.
Jane Austen is a perfect example:  read all her works, written in the first
decade and a half of the 19th century.  You will find exactly 1 oblique
reference to the Napoleonic wars.  Surely the times were more concerned with
them than THAT.  One could argue that the great authors create timeless work
thus are less suited for this endeavor than the lesser ones, rooted in time;
still, you don't get a whole lot out of the effort.

>Some literary critics would disagree strongly with this view, of
>course. They would maintain that the text should be studied in
>isolation from the society, and even from the author. Some critics
>also would deny the possibility of discerning truth from phantasy.
>Some would say that the author is dead.
>
>Denis Paz

More likely, they would assert the primacy of the TEXT, as it is the artifact
in question.  There was a movement early in this century that seemed to want
to study anything but the text--hence the reaction.  The most famous counter-
blast I can think of is an essay against the "intentionalist fallacy" that all
good little grad students had to study thoroughly (as of the mid '70s--no doubt
this is as passe as everything else).  Note that literary criticism and analy-
sis is an entirely separate field of intellectual endeavor with its own rules
and aims.  (Note also I haven't even mentioned the dreadly words, Structuralism
deconstruction, and Derrida.)
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Date:         Wed, 8 Apr 1992 08:49:27 EDT
From:         Jim Cocks <JACOCK01@ULKYVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Grant the Incompetent
Comments: To: HISTORY%RUTVM1@RUTVM1.RUTGERS.EDU

>Isn't it true that one of the central formative characteristics of our current
>President is -- loyalty to old friends?

Yep, and the previous one too.  Maybe I ought to prepare myself for tombs to
Reagan and Bush.  They would of course be memorials to the great Grenadan
War and the Great War to Reseat the Emir of Kuwait.   Todays delusions and
fantasies are tomorrows realities :-)

 Jim Cocks
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Date:         Mon, 6 Apr 1992 11:54:38 PDT
From:         "Robert B. Pasker" <rbp@SUTRO.SFSU.EDU>
Subject:      Re: films & history
Comments: To: HISTORY%RUTVM1.BitNet@pucc.princeton.edu
              "DGPAZ%CLEMSON.BitNet@pucc.princeton.edu" at Apr 6, 92 1:36 pm

dennis paz wrote:
> Some literary critics would disagree strongly with this view, of
> course. They would maintain that the text should be studied in
> isolation from the society, and even from the author. Some critics
> also would deny the possibility of discerning truth from phantasy.
> Some would say that the author is dead.

that's why they teach literature :-)

what's worse, imho, is that there are people who study history and
will not accept literature as a source.

-bob
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Date:         Wed, 8 Apr 1992 20:30:00 EST
From:         BROWNH@CTSTATEU.BITNET
Subject:      social history

I must admit that I have not been following the thread on social history
closely because of other preoccupations, but my impression is that there
is no real consensus what it is. Certainly, the French social history
that emerged at the beginning of the twentieth century is quite differ-
ent from the German definition. Whether Dan Foss is correct in his as-
sumption that world history and social history are soul mates depends
a great deal on just what we mean by social history. Having said this,
however, perhaps it can be said that social history is in some way a
totalizing history, one that brings into consideration all possible
factors to establish their systemic (the French would say synchronic)
relation. Without implying my agreement with this conception of social
history, at least there is the implication that if one takes into con-
sideration all influences and all constraints, that doing so requires
a scope that is global in extent. If event A is one's concern and to
explain it one considers the influence of B, and then to explain B we
bring into consideration D, we end up with a sort of indeterminant in-
teractionism that might indeed be global in scope, but utterly meaning-
less. Incidentally, I don't think the only alternative to this problem
is a crude reductionism, but that's another story.

Haines Brown  (brownh@ccsu.ctstateu.edu)
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Date:         Thu, 9 Apr 1992 18:53:47 PDT
From:         bob pasker <halfdome!bob@APPLE.COM>
Subject:      history & literature
Comments: To: HISTORY%rutvm1.BITNET@cunyvm.cuny.edu

>Ken Koester wrote"
>The point is that trying to learn about history and/or society from reading
>great literature is likely to lead you to rather bizarre lacunae.

i never said great literature.  i said literature, full stop.

>The wars
>obviously were not important to what Austen wanted to write about, but they
>were ENORMOUSLY important to the times.

why were they so ENOURMOUSLY important to the times?  this is the
classical anachronism: they're important to YOU, so you think they
were important to the times. before you go off half-cocked, i will
believe your 'ENOURMOUSLY important' claim if you do the following:
(1) precisely define 'important', i.e. how many people had to spend how
much time thinking about the effects of the war before you would call
them important (or theoretically testable measurement you care to
provide.)  (2) prove that your definition of importance is not
anachronistic, i.e. show that all the people of the time had the same
definition of importance as you do.

>As for =Madame Bovary=, the bourgeois society that Flaubert is writing about
>emerged more from Napoleon III than I, I should opine.  Further, the book is
>primarily about one individual's spirit, *not* a society, emergent or
>otherwise.

go back and reread the book.  read it with the intent of trying to
understand the roles of and the relationships between emma, charles,
homais, m. roualt, robert, etc.  understand the subtext.  figure out
what flaubert was trying to say about the church, and about bourgeous
values.  read flaubert's biography and find out why the book was
banned and flaubert charged.

>Are you really serious about trying to learn about the times?

do you think i believe that bovary tells what life was like in france?
of course not, no body does.  does it gives clues to some of the
problems of bourgeouis society?  does it tell us what people wore,
what kind of houses they lived in, what kinds of relationships people
had?  of course, with a caveat.  you cross-correlate the evidence to
other sources.  thats the job of a historian.

>Pick up second or third rate writers.  Almost by definition their works are
>firmly time-anchored, unlike the greats.  A much richer source of info.

again, by whose definition?  yours, perhaps?  'accepted' definition? bah!

--
-- bob pasker: {bob@halfdome.UUCP | rbp@well.sf.ca.us | rbp@sutro.sfsu.edu}
--        San Francisco State University -- Department of History
--
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Date:         Mon, 6 Apr 1992 13:36:00 EDT
From:         DGPAZ@CLEMSON.BITNET
Subject:      Re: films & history

On Mon, 6 Apr 1992 08:13:07 PDT bob pasker <halfdome!bob@APPLE.COM> said:

> contemporary novels are wonderful ways to understand a time period or
> an issue. ... they're untrue, but they tell us
> about the times.  when reading such works we have to be able to
> discern the truth from the fantasy, but if we ignore literature as
> history we lose an important tool.

I could not agree with you more. The trick is to read the novels
from a grounding in the history of the society that produced the
novels.

Some literary critics would disagree strongly with this view, of
course. They would maintain that the text should be studied in
isolation from the society, and even from the author. Some critics
also would deny the possibility of discerning truth from phantasy.
Some would say that the author is dead.

Denis Paz
Department of History
Clemson University
South Carolina, U.S.A.
dgpaz@clemson.bitnet
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Date:         Tue, 7 Apr 1992 09:32:11 METDST
From:         George Welling <welling@GUFALET.LET.RUG.NL>
Subject:      Re: Visiting Ireland
              6, 92 2:53 pm

>   Anyway, I'm going to Ireland next week to investigat my heritage
> and have as much fun as possible, and I'm looking for some first hand
> views on historical sights, goods pubs, interesting events happening
> during Holy Week, or anything else that might be interesting to do
> or see.  My trip is very free form but will be in the south western
> area of the country, including Galway, Cork, Kerry, Kilarney, etc.
>   Maybe this can spur a discussion of Irish history, and since I'm
> not asking for donations I won't feel too guilty about using the
> list like this.
>
>                                              Thanks,
>                                              Glenn Greene
>                                              Rutgers University
>

I think you  should take more time. Me and my wife did the same area on
bicycle some years ago in about five weeks. Gives you a better opportunity to
come to the real small villages and take in the country. (And the longer you
stay the better the ratio of rain-days and dry days gets). Bit if you ever
decide on cycling there, be sure to put mountain-gears on. Those hills are not
so high, but they are very steep.
In almost all the "bed and breakfast" places we stayed there were pictures of
the pope (and usually still John XXIII) and John F. Kennedy, beside some
madonna. First question we always had to answer was if we were married.
If you can got to the Glenn of Aherlow (I don't know if that's spelled right),
it's beautiful. If they had better weather, I would go more often to Ireland.



--
===============================================================================
|   __   __            || George M. Welling         ||   __   __              |
|  /  '-' (         ,, || welling@let.rug.nl        ||  /  '-' (         ,,,  |
| {  I I ||||||||||[::]|| dep. Alfa-Informatica HCI || {  I I ||||||||||[:::] |
|  \__.-._(         '' || University of Groningen   ||  \__.-._(         '''  |
| tel : +31 50 63 5474 || The Netherlands           || fax : +31 50 63 4900   |
===============================================================================
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Date:         Mon, 6 Apr 1992 11:38:00 EST
From:         SHSILVER@IUBACS.BITNET
Subject:      Historical Accuracy

Although it was said that a realistic Mediaeval film could
not hold the attention of the audience because it would be
boring for modern audiences to witness a medieval plotline,
this only holds true in the cases of a film based on
Mediaeval literature.  The motives and actions of historical
people were the same then as they are now.  If you permit
historical inaccuracies under the guise of "its only a play/
film", soon you have people believing that it is accurate
history.  A case in point is any Shakespeare play labelled a
history (whether its the previously mentioned Henry V or the
notorious Richard III), which are invariably good drama but
bad history.  Unfortunately, people frequently mistake what
Shakespeare wrote with what "actually" happened.

       O
       |
0{XXXX}+====================>  Steven H Silver
       |                          SHSILVER@ucs.indiana.edu
       O                             Indiana University
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Date:         Tue, 7 Apr 1992 14:13:53 EST
From:         PATODZIA@SUVM.BITNET
Subject:      History & film

       The movie <Lady Jane> starring Helena Bonham-Carter contained some
good acting and fine film craft, but the historical content was badly
distroted.  The romance bewteen Lady Jane Grey and Lord Guildford Dudley
was wholly fabricated.  The last scene of her last words on the scaffold
was disrespectful, and inane.  The film has her cry out for her husband.
She probably hated him, and her last words were directed at Christ.  She
was quite the zealous Protestant.  The filmmakers obviously missed the
point  of her short life.  I'm not much on religion, but I was insulted
by this film for creating a false earthly love to replace a young woman's
love for her god.  What a shame.
                                 P. A. Todzia
                                 IST
                                 Syracuse University
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