HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jaapjl@tab00.larc.nasa.gov (J Lee Jaap)
Newsgroups: news.admin,news.groups,rec.music.synth
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Date: 9 Nov 1992 15:05:15 GMT
Organization: AS&M Inc
	<1992Nov6.235752.25016@jato.jpl.nasa.gov>
	<BxBq1w.7Cu@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>
Reply-To: J Lee Jaap <J.L.Jaap@larc.nasa.gov>
NNTP-Posting-Host: cmb00.larc.nasa.gov
In-reply-to: ksdavis@silver.ucs.indiana.edu's message of Sat, 7 Nov 1992 02:10:44 GMT

In article <BxBq1w.7Cu@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> ksdavis@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Karleenus Schwartz Davis) writes:

   In article <1992Nov6.235752.25016@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov writes:
   >jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard) writes:
   >>About the only thing that can be done about this netwide is to honor the
   >>results of the vote, as a large number of admins will be doing exactly that.
   >
   >And a smaller number won't.

   And those that don't are responsible for splitting the group.  If
   that's what they want, that's what they get.  If they want the group
   to stay together they will all comply with the results of the vote, at
   the same time, and the changeover will go smoothly. 

And perhaps change the Guidelines (if deemed necessary by the net) to
avoid such a problem _in the future_.  I suggest that the current
Guidelines have been followed and that the vote not be invalidated due
to wishful thinking.

Dave, why didn't you go campaigning (or informing) in r.m.s during
the vote?  Or complain during the RFD that your friends in r.m.s
weren't participating?
--
J Lee Jaap <J.L.Jaap@LaRC.NASA.Gov> +1 804/864-2148
    employed by, not speaking for, AS&M Inc, at
         NASA LaRC, Hampton VA 23681-0001
Newsgroups: news.admin,rec.music.synth
From: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes)
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Reply-To: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov
Organization: Jet Propulsion Lab - Pasadena, CA
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 20:36:19 GMT

fenner@postscript.cs.psu.edu (Bill Fenner) writes:
>The problem here is that there is an understanding gap.  It seems that Dave's
>position is that the people who are getting the newsgroup through the gateways
>that, for some unknown reason, are not going to change the name of the
>newsgroup they're gatewaying, are being left behind.

That's correct, but not complete. Let me present some calm points
(for a change). I claim all of the following to be my position. My position
is subject to change based on new data or arguments. 

Given:

1) As a direct result of the name change, r.m.s lost some good people. 
2) As a direct result of the name change, r.m.s lost the ability to be
distributed through at least one gateway.
3) I found the vote to adhere to the letter of the guidelines but not the
spirit of them. It has been admitted in this thread that the voter population
was skewed unfairly against the constituents of r.m.s...however the skewing
was not against the guidelines. 

My position is then:

1) The r.m.s issue should be revoted upon. (An RFD is sitting in Mr. 
Lawrence's mailbox.)
2) Blind adherence to an incomplete guidelines set is alienating many net 
users. This issue needs to be addressed.
3) Voting procedures should not assume that lack of responsiveness is due
to chosen ignorance. There are many new net users. This issue needs to 
be addressed. Revotes, in particular, need to be allowed. 
4) The entire procedure of renaming and removing groups needs to be
addressed so that the issue is made as clear as is humanly possible to
the constituents of existing groups.

Again, this position is subject to change. I don't pretend to be inflexible,
but I will admit to stubborness.

>start gatewaying the new group.  Dave: if the gateways switch, so that everyone
>still has the same access to the group, then do you still have a beef with it?

As I've said above, yes. However, I realize that everyone here is burning out 
on these flames, and there's a lot of people who'd just as soon see me drop 
this entire issue. My compromise is to only answer the more rational posts 
from here on in such as yours. Everyone else take this to email.

I will continue to champion the issue of r.m.s. and I am working on changes 
to the guidelines as we flame. I do not intend to drop this issue at all. 
-- 
Dave Hayes - Network & Communications Engineering - JPL / NASA - Pasadena CA
dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov       dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov         ...usc!elroy!dxh

   A man appointed to be judge has been killed without a knife.
Xref: sparky news.admin:8467 rec.music.synth:18233 news.groups:21147
From: arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee)
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Organization: Johns Hopkins University CS Dept.
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 19:55:31 GMT

In article <1992Nov10.035035.8967@pony.Ingres.COM> rca@Ingres.COM (Bob Arnold) writes:
>It's perfectly clear that Rich Kulawiec did an honest and careful call
>for votes.  Can we simply drop any/all assertions to the contrary?

No.  This is precisely what is in dispute, and by definition cannot be clear.
--
"the bogosity in a field equals the bogosity imported from related areas, plus
the bogosity generated internally, minus the bogosity expelled or otherwise
disposed of."  -- K. Eric Drexler

Ken Arromdee (UUCP: ....!jhunix!arromdee; BITNET: arromdee@jhuvm;
     INTERNET: arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu)
Newsgroups: news.admin,rec.music.synth
From: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes)
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Reply-To: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov
Organization: Jet Propulsion Lab - Pasadena, CA
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 20:41:31 GMT

stanley@skyking.OCE.ORST.EDU (John Stanley) writes:
>Of course. That is why the CFV was posted to that group. It was posted
>there, people have said they have seen it, and archives have shown that
>it was. The users of r.m.s had just as much chance to vote as anyone
>else. 

Again the two critical points: 
1) the subject line was not clear
2) The first page of the CFV had no mention of r.m.s

This served to skew the voter population unfairly. Yes it was within
the compliance of the guidelines. No, it was not equitable. 

>I thought we were dealing with a rational person who could accept it
>when he was shown that there was no inequity. Or who would prove this
>inequity instead of just continuing to shout that there is one.

I just did. Let's stick to the topic...we've been flaming enough.
-- 
Dave Hayes - Network & Communications Engineering - JPL / NASA - Pasadena CA
dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov       dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov         ...usc!elroy!dxh

   The foolish reject what they see, not what they think;
	     The wise reject what they think, not what they see...
Xref: sparky news.admin:8377 news.sysadmin:1388 news.admin.policy:196 alt.binaries.pictures.erotica.d:8902
From: rsk@gynko.circ.upenn.edu (Rich Kulawiec)
Newsgroups: news.admin,news.groups
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Date: 10 Nov 92 01:29:00 GMT
Followup-To: news.admin
Organization: GSP Whitewater Slalom Racing Team

In article <1992Nov10.002728.5233@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov writes:
>Demonstrably and admittedly false. I cite this example as one. The voter
>population was skewed. 

The newsgroup creation guidelines do not place any requirement on the
voting population, i.e. anyone may cast a vote.  The term "skewed"
is semantically null in this context, because there is no such thing
as a "non-skewed" voting population.  Voting populations consist of
people who decide to vote: there is no litmus test for eligibility.

---Rsk
Xref: sparky news.admin:8285 news.sysadmin:1361 news.groups:20251 alt.config:6653
From: craig@ec.uwa.oz.au (Craig Richmond - division)
Newsgroups: news.admin,news.sysadmin,news.groups,alt.config
Subject: Re: "general" is a bad name for a newsgroup
Date: 5 Nov 1992 07:13:11 GMT
Organization: The University of Western Australia
NNTP-Posting-Host: decel.ecel.uwa.edu.au

Nigel.Allen@launchpad.unc.edu (Nigel Allen) writes:

>If you have a local newsgroup called "general", you will sometimes find
>articles from other sites in that newsgroup. These articles will normally
>have been cross-posted to general (by which the original poster meant
>their *own* general newsgroup) and to a more widely-distributed group.
>These other-site posts to general can confuse your users. (In fact, if you
>check general on your own site, you may find some fairly shrill arguments
>about the U.S. presidential election that were cross-posted to soc.singles
>and general.)

I think the general news group is one that c-news or nn create
automatically which explains why so many sites end up with it.  Also,
choosing a name like cs.general is also a bad idea because it confused me
for quite some time how the only things that ever appeared in our own
cs.general newsgroup were from exotic locations outside the department and
also parts of threads that were not in the group either.  I eventaully
cottoned on to what was happening when one of the aforementioned articles
was someone testing his theory of cross-posting :-)

Craig
--
Craig Richmond.  Computer Officer -  Dept of Economics (morning) 380 3860
  University of Western Australia    Dept of Education (afternoon)
craig@ecel.uwa.edu.au Dvorak Keyboards RULE!  "Messes are only acceptable
if users make them.  Applications aren't allowed this freedom" I.M.VI 2-4
From: hartman@ulogic.UUCP (Richard M. Hartman)
Newsgroups: news.admin
Subject: Guidelines discussion: RFD
Keywords: Pornography Legal Child Porn
Date: 7 Nov 92 19:10:09 GMT
Organization: negligable

The (rather large and vociferous) discusison about the rec.music.synth
thing has spawned one legitimate question that I can tell (and, no, I
don't think it should invalidated the outcome of a vote taken under
the guidelines as they stood at the time.  ex post facto and all that...)

Is a msg w/ the subject line "RFD: ...." a sufficiently clear means
of notifying a group about a change that may affect them?  The initials
RFD, CFV etc are clear to the news admins in new.groups who have read
the guidelines and are watching for such things.  But using INITIALS
to try and get the point across to a bunch of musicians that got on
the net to talk about synthesizers may not be clear.

Should the messages that are posted to the affected groups have
more detailed, unobfuscated "Subject:" lines?  e.g. (1/2 :) ) :

	> Subject: Your news group may be renamed!!! Speak up NOW!

		-Richard Hartman
		hartman@ulogic.COM

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty.

Newsgroups: news.admin,news.groups
From: chip@tct.com (Chip Salzenberg)
Subject: Re: Dave, stop using "news.groups" straw man
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 14:46:12 GMT
Organization: TC Telemanagement, Clearwater, FL

According to dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov:
>Most people don't have time to remain glued to news.groups. 

Dave, please repeat after me:

  "No one need read news.groups all the time.
   That's what news.announce.newgroups is for."

Okay?
-- 
Chip Salzenberg at Teltronics/TCT  <chip@tct.com>, <73717.366@compuserve.com>
   "I am truly as big a genius as all other Rush fans." -- Bruce Bufalini
Xref: sparky news.admin:8425 news.groups:20926 rec.music.makers:10839 rec.music.synth:18148
Newsgroups: news.admin
Subject: Re: Bathroom monitor Re-dux ...
From: emcguire@intellection.com (Ed McGuire)
Date: 6 Nov 92 01:16:49 GMT
Organization: Intellection, Inc.

In article <Bx66D9.BFF@ibmpcug.co.uk> gtoal@ibmpcug.co.uk (Graham Toal) writes:

   Now now Mathew, you're <plonking> again.  In British law at least as it
   applies to paper mail, the letters belong to the recipient as *many*
   court cases have consistently attested (usually when the love-letters
   of famous authors are published by the recipients in their dotage).

As I understand U.S. law, letters are also the property of the person
who received them.  However, the author still holds the copyright,
just as for any other creative work.  In the U.S., the person who
received the letter may thus make copies for personal use only.
Publishing the letter would be a violation of copyright law, and
potentially grounds for a lawsuit.

Extended to e-mail, this is the basis for the convention that one
seeks permission before posting or forwarding a letter.  Whether the
extension to e-mail has been tested in court, I do not know.  Also,
having not read any British law, I have no idea whether copyright law
exempts letters in your country.

Regards, Ed
-- 
Ed McGuire                   1603 LBJ Freeway, Suite 780
Systems Administrator/       Dallas, Texas 75234
 Member of Technical Staff   214/620-2100, FAX 214/484-8110
Intellection, Inc.           <ed@intellection.com>
From: smithj@hpsad.sad.hp.com (Jim Smith)
Newsgroups: news.admin
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Date: 5 Nov 92 02:03:08 GMT
Article-I.D.: hpsad.23670001
Organization: no risk to you!

In news.admin, dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes) writes:

    <...>
    As a news admin and a reader of rec.music.synth, and noticing that the
    vote passed by one measly vote (there were 101 more yes than no votes)
    I am officially stating my intent to NOT honor the newgroup for 
    "rec.music.makers.synth" and to keep alive the "rec.music.synth" newsgroup.

    <...>
    I also encourage other news admins out there to look into this problem as an
    example of an officially sanctioned act that will turn out to inconvienence
    a lot of people. This is bogus, folks.

This would be WONderful, if everyone does it.  But what if some sites drop
rec.music.synth and the traffic gets split?  Is there anything that can be
done about this netwide?  

It really has been a devastating month for the rec.music.synth crowd, and
it's sad to see the group dissipated by this incursion.

	    - Jim Smith  smithj@hpsad.sad.hp.com
From: jfh@rpp386.lonestar.org (John F. Haugh II)
Newsgroups: news.admin
Subject: Re: Bathroom monitor Re-dux ...
Date: 8 Nov 92 03:42:01 GMT
Reply-To: jfh@rpp386.cactus.org (John F. Haugh II)
Organization: Los Tejanos SCUBA Club and Beer Joint, Austin, Tejas

In article <mJuNTB7w165w@mantis.co.uk> mathew@mantis.co.uk (mathew) writes:
>irving@Happy-Man.com (Irving_Wolfe) writes:
>> Well, that's awfully silly of you!  If there's no explicit
>> agreement regarding non-disclosure, received e-mail is the property
>> of the recipient to do with as he wishes.
>
>Bullshit.  Go and read news.announce.newusers.

This convention exists in part because people post parts of mail
messages out of context, or have altered text and there is no
way of authenticating the text as original.

In the case of John De Armond, he has been posting mail that he
received without permission throughout this tiff.  Posting his
mail is simply equal treatment.  Much of the mail he has sent
people has been either vile and mean-spirited, or particularly
insightful in a warped sense.  In newsgroups where hate-mail is
much more common (such as soc.women or soc.men), this "outing"
of hate mail senders is openly sanctioned (or at least it was
the last time I hung out in some of those groups).

Since John De Armond has taken to threatening people with their
jobs, it is only appropriate that we post his mail so that other
people can see what an unbalanced monster he is.
-- 
John F. Haugh II                  [  TSAKC  ] !'s: ...!cs.utexas.edu!rpp386!jfh
Ma Bell: (512) 251-2151           [ DoF #17 ]        @'s: jfh@rpp386.cactus.org
Newsgroups: news.admin,rec.music.synth
From: chip@tct.com (Chip Salzenberg)
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 14:28:48 GMT
Organization: TC Telemanagement, Clearwater, FL

According to dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov:
>I'll say it again: "what about the users of rec.music.synth? Don't you care
>about them?"

What about them?  I don't think they're being harmed at all.  It isn't
that hard to insert ".makers" into a mail<->news gateway control file.

>I thought I was dealing with rational folk who might have a chance of 
>perhaps considering that maybe there was an inequity in how it was handled.

Without adherence to procedure, Usenet becomes alt.  No group's users
would be well served by such a degeneration.
-- 
Chip Salzenberg at Teltronics/TCT  <chip@tct.com>, <73717.366@compuserve.com>
   "I am truly as big a genius as all other Rush fans." -- Bruce Bufalini
Newsgroups: news.admin,news.sysadmin,news.admin.policy,alt.binaries.pictures.erotica.d,sender
From: dave@frackit.UUCP (Dave Ratcliffe)
Newsgroups: news.admin
Subject: Re: Lary Lippman dealing with jgd@dixie.com
Date: 5 Nov 92 15:17:02 GMT
Organization: Data Factory Services, Harrisburg, Pa.


 In article <x#9p83b@dixie.com>, jgd@dixie.com (John De Armond) writes:
 > hansk@aie.nl (Hans Kinwel) writes:
 > 
 > >There has been a repost of an article by Larry Lippman dealing with
 > >jgd@dixie.com in sci.electronics. It's called "lippman archives".
 > 
 > >I encourage anyone who's interested in jgd's true nature - in case you
 > >havn't had enough already - to read it. It's quite amusing...
 > 
 > Yeah, and you see what happened to Larry the Lid too, don't you?

Truly tasteless John. But then it IS you we're talking about. 


-- 
 ...uunet!wa3wbu!frackit!dave -or-                       |  Dave Ratcliffe  |
 frackit!dave@uunet.UU.NET -or- dave@frackit.uucp -or-   |  Sys. <*> Admin. |
 vogon1!compnect!frackit!dave@psuvax1.psu.edu            | Harrisburg,  Pa. |
Newsgroups: news.admin,news.software.readers,comp.mail.elm
From: henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer)
Subject: Re: can C-news and mail be distributed in binary form ?
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 22:09:47 GMT
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology

In article <1992Nov10.213219.951@victrola.sea.wa.us> vince@victrola.sea.wa.us (Vince Skahan) writes:
>I'm interested in whether it's theoretically possible, assuming
>some standard setup (directory structure, domainized headers, etc.)
>to come up with a binary-only distribution of C-news, newsreaders,
>and 'elm'.

There should be no problem with C News if you're willing to settle on
a standard setup for things like the directory names.  They need to be
compiled in, but most other things (e.g. host name) don't.
-- 
MS-DOS is the OS/360 of the 1980s.      | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
              -Hal W. Hardenbergh (1985)|  henry@zoo.toronto.edu  utzoo!henry
Xref: sparky news.admin:8484 news.sysadmin:1426 news.groups:21288 alt.config:6828
From: jon%vector0.SAC.CA.US@sactoh0.SAC.CA.US (Dazed N. Confused)
Newsgroups: news.admin,news.sysadmin,news.groups,alt.config
Subject: Re: "general" is a bad name for a newsgroup
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 92 11:18:48 PST
Organization: Vector Zero

flee@cs.psu.edu (Felix Lee) writes:

> > If you have a local newsgroup called "general", you will sometimes find
> > articles from other sites in that newsgroup.
> 
> Either: 1. all newsgroup names must be globally unique;
>     or: 2a. sites can carry "different" groups with the same name.

     What about:

          3. allow a selective "no-crossposting" flag for certain
               newsgroups.

     Hey, Waffle can do it.

alt.flame      /solo
general        /solo


--Jon

   jon@vector0.SAC.CA.US                     Life is like a kiwi.
   citrus.SAC.CA.US!vector0!jon

Newsgroups: news.admin,news.groups,rec.music.makers,rec.music.synth
From: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes)
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Reply-To: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov
Organization: Jet Propulsion Lab - Pasadena, CA
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 07:48:50 GMT

rca@Ingres.COM (Bob Arnold) writes:
>It's perfectly clear that Rich Kulawiec did an honest and careful call
>for votes.  Can we simply drop any/all assertions to the contrary?

I never asserted anything like that, for the record.

>This mess would not have happened if Rich (remember, he did an honest
>and careful job) had mentioned r.m.synth in the CFV/CFD subject line.  

Agreed. 

>Dave - let me try to make a constructive suggestion:
>Find out who is responsible for these guidelines, and make a constructive
>effort to work with those folks to get them improved so that CFVs and CFDs
>have to have the affected groups in the subject line.  That should be
>a simple improvement that would help future votes.

I am working on some guidelines changes. They may not be what is expected,
but the intent is to diminsh the flamefests over newsgroup creation AND
to give users more say so over what happens to their group in the process. 

>Under the circumstances, I'd suggest to Dave that he acknowledge the
>validity of the vote, and send out his own CFV and CFD to rename it
>back to r.m.synth.  I assume that Dave would do an even better job than
>Rich, thanks to what we've all learned from this experience.

I cannot acknowledge the validity of what I know to be wrong in spirit. 
I will acknowledge that the guidelines are flawed, and I will acknowledge
that the letter of the law was upheld. There is a RFD in Mr. Lawrence's
mailbox. 

>I'd like hope that these words will have a calming effect on what is
>about to become a flamefest.  

ABOUT to? Where have you been? 8)
-- 
Dave Hayes - Network & Communications Engineering - JPL / NASA - Pasadena CA
dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov       dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov         ...usc!elroy!dxh

   "It is a dragon, destroyer of all," cried the ants. 
                                   Then a cat caught the lizard.
Newsgroups: news.admin
From: minmin@astec.co.jp (Masato Minda)
Subject: sendme kscgw -- I'm sorry.
Keywords: sendme
Organization: ASTEC, Inc. Tokyo, Japan
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 12:26:19 GMT

I had been sent this control message, and several others in WORLD-WIDE.

    Control: sendme kscgw
    Newsgroups: control
Path: pipex!uunet!sun-barr!sh.wide!wnoc-tyo-news!astecgw!minmin
    From: minmin@astec.co.jp (Masato Minda)
    Subject: sendme kscgw
    Message-ID: <BxH8Ly.H7x@astec.co.jp>
    Organization: ASTEC, Inc. Tokyo, Japan
    Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 01:39:33 GMT
    Lines: 1418

Please ignore. I'm sorry about this.

minmin
-- 
minmin;  Masato Minda;  System Software Dev. ASTEC, Inc.;  <minmin@astec.co.jp>
From: pashdown@javelin.sim.es.com (Pete Ashdown)
Newsgroups: news.admin.technical
Subject: NNTP full pathname fix?
Date: 12 Nov 92 18:57:54 GMT
Organization: Evans & Sutherland Computer Corp.

Last time I updated CNEWS there was some patch to fix the problem with
nntpsend not seeing where articles are truly located due to the local path
change in the batch files.  Now I can't find this patch, does anyone know what
I'm talking about?
-- 
		       "I'm Slash man, Slash!" - Slash

DISCLAIMER: My writings have NOTHING to do with my employer.  Keep it that way.
Pete Ashdown    pashdown@slack.sim.es.com    ...uunet!slack.sim.es.com!pashdown
From: tom_limoncelli@warren.mentorg.com (Tom Limoncelli)
Newsgroups: news.admin.technical
Subject: Re: Help needed with INN
Date: 7 Nov 92 04:11:37 GMT
Article-I.D.: milk.1deuosINNdv1
Organization: Mentor Graphics -- IC Group

In <BLYMN.92Nov6201946@siren.awadi.com.au> blymn@awadi.com.AU (Brett Lymn) writes:

>I have installed inn recently and have it up and running...sort of.  I
>am having a lot of pain with my innd seemingly stalling after is has
>run the news.daily script.  What seems to happen is that after the

If you post the output of "innctld mode" and
"find /usr/lib/news \! -user news -ls"
(assuming you put your history, etc. in /usr/lib/news) we'd be
able to help you more.

Tom

-- 
Tom Limoncelli -- tal@warren.mentorg.com (work) -- tal@plts.uucp (play)
   X.400 is the mail system of the future.  Let's keep it that way!