From: steven@spxtech.qc.ca (Steve Potter)
Newsgroups: can.politics,soc.culture.canada,can.followup
Subject: Re: Americans on English schools in Quebec (Was: Quebec)
Date: 16 Nov 92 15:14:32 GMT
Organization: Securiplex Technologies Inc., Montreal, Canada
X-Bytes: 8666

From article <1992Nov14.201820.20492@msuinfo.cl.msu.edu>, by mousseau@paun02.pa.msu.edu (Normand Mousseau):
> 
> In article <2AFFC58C.3AF4@telly.on.ca>, evan@telly.on.ca (Evan Leibovitch) writes:
> 
> |> In article <1992Nov4.115614.3846@spxtech.qc.ca>
> |> 	steven@spxtech.qc.ca (Steve Potter) writes:
> |> 
> |> >Is it your belief that English must be suppressed in Quebec or French
> |> >will die?
> |> 
> |> Steve, I'm surprised you're still asking this question, even rhetorically.
> |> 
> |> Of *course* this is the main underlying belief behind the sign laws, the
> |> education laws, and the desire for ever-increasing power over immigrants'
> |> choice of language and adopted culture (which you have experienced
> |> personally).
> |> 
> |> Haven't you realized by now that Quebecois have taken the lazy way out
> |> of their cultural dillemas? It's far easier to repress English than to
> |> encourage French, it's cheaper for the provincial government, and it
> |> has the (unspoken but very real) aspect of revenge. A lot of francophone
> |> Quebecois who support these repressive measures, take some obscene comfort
> |> believing that the English in Quebec are finally getting a dose of what
> |> they've been doing to Quebecois francophones for generations.  Of course
> |> this doesn't make it right, but it's one hell of a rationalization.
> |>
> 
> 	Je ne crois pas que les quebecois aient pris la voie de la facilite. 
> l'Office de la langue francaise a fait, par exemple, un excellent travail dans
> la recherche et la promotion d'expressions francaises a utiliser au lieu d'anglicismes.  Le travail est tellement bon que la France s'y refere tres souvent quand elle veut pousser un nouveau terme francais.

They also have officials dragging businesses through the courts for not
obeying notices to tear down their "offensive" English commercial signs.

There is another office whose work is to find ways to replace English place
names with French ones (we've discussed that one before).

There is also an office responsible for determining the "eligibilty" of
children for instruction in English.

>  Le cinema,
> la litterature ainsi que les spectacles quebecois sont d'un calibre international et sont soutenus, en partie, par le gouvernement du Quebec.  La comparaison entre la vigueur des industries culturelle quebecoises et celles du Canada anglais ressort vivemement en faveur du Quebec.  Ou est donc la paresse
> proclamee ci-haut ?

English language films are permitted in Quebec for a limited period until
a French dubbed sound track version is available (I think - correct me if
i'm wrong).

There are some very positive measures that could be taken to encourage and
develop the use of French in Quebec WITHOUT resorting to repressive and
unacceptable violations of civil liberties and human rights and freedoms.

Quebec uses both types of tools.

It is believed to be politically beneficial for a prospective election
candidate in Quebec to be seen to be anglo-bashing or exacting revenge
on the English of today for the "sins" of the English of the past.

The fact that there are some positive steps being taken to encourage the
use of French in Quebec does not change the fact that there are some
repressive measures also being taken that are undesirable and unacceptable
in a civilized democracy (which Quebec is not :-( )

> 
> 	Il ne faut toutefois pas rever en couleurs.  L'attirance de 
> l'anglais et des Etats-Unis est forte, aussi bien pour les nouveaux 
> immigrants que pour les Quebecois de souche (i.e. de deuxieme et + 
> generation).

Not least for people coming here whose roots are already firmly established
as English!

To suggest that the attraction of English for people coming to this province
is a threat to the French language and culture in Quebec, however, is a myth!

>  Le Canada anglais doit en savoir quelque chose...  Aussi,
> les mesure incitatrices ne sont malheureusement pas suffisante pour 
> garantir l'integration des immigrants.

Please quote figures and source - I think you have been misinformed!

>  Il faut faire clairement comprendre
> que le francais est necessaire pour survivre et s'epanouir au Quebec.
>

Then one would be stupid not to have one's children learn French.

That French is needed to do well in Quebec should be reason enough to have
one's children learn the language - and learn it well.

That is not a reason for denying access to English schools (where French can
be learned very well as a second language in immersion programs in ever
increasing demand here) from English speaking children - or anybody else's
children for that matter.
 
> 	En ce qui concerne l'esprit de revenche.  Il n'y a pas si longtemps qu'il est possible de se faire servir en francais dans les grands magasins du centre-ville de Montreal.

Well the tables have turned! Haven't they?

>  Et ceux qui se rappellent l'humiliation subie alors
> ne peuvent pas l'oublier si facilement.  De plus, il me faut revenir sur la
> situation des minorites francophones hors-Quebec.  Il ne me souvient pas
> avoir lu de complaintes a propos de leur situation sur ce reseau.

The Quebec government has not got a good a record for defending the rights of
french canadians outside Quebec with regard to their demands for access to
official language minority education for their children either !!!!! :-(

> Or, leur
> situation est autrement plus catastrophique que celle de la minorite anglaise
> Quebec.  Mais, n'oublions pas que c'est le sort de la langue anglaise au
> Canada qui est en jeu.  Pour revenir a l'esprit de revanche, je crois qu'il existe sous une certaine forme et ne pourra disparaitre qu'avec le temps. 
> Mais il n'est pas la source des programmes de protection du francais mis en
> place dans les dernieres annees. 
> 

That is debateable.

> |> Part of the reason I voted no, was because the CA proposed to legitimize
> |> this laziness. The whole reason for entrenching the Distinct Society in
> |> law, is to give some legal legitimacy to existing and future cultural
> |> repression. Rather than change 178, or continue to invoke the NWC on it,
> |> Quebec would most love to have it declared legitimate by changing the
> |> guidelines for legitimacy.
> |> 
> |> While languages from Bengali to Yiddish to Mandarin to Czech flourish in
> |> Canada merely because of the will of those who speak it, it is ironic that
> |> French in Quebec can seemingly survive only by repressing other languages.
> |> 
> |> -- 
> |>  Evan Leibovitch, Sound Software Ltd., located in beautiful Brampton, Ontario
> |>          evan@telly.on.ca / uunet!utzoo!telly!evan / (416) 452-0504
> |>          "IBM's three letters are probably EBCDIC for CYA" - Nik H.
> |> 
> 
> Je crois, mon cher Evan, que c'est exagerer un peu que de dire que le Bengali
> fleuri au Canada.  Quand a-t'on vu un roman canadien publie en Bengali ?
> Il serait plus juste de dire que ces langues survivent dans leur communaute ethnique mais ne servent plus, malheureusement, a etendre et developper la culture qu'elles supportent.
> 
> Il m'est egalement impossible d'accepter les mots "repression" et "laziness".

"repression" is certainly appropriate.

"laziness" is not, IMHO.

> N'oublie pas que le Quebec est tout pres d'un centre d'attraction culturel
> international: les Etats-Unis et que l'anglais, comme langue internationale,
> est aussi extremement attrayant.  Les mesures de protection et de promotion
> du francais doivent donc se faire sur deux plans: revalorisation d'une
> culture quebecoise et protection du francais.

Unfortunately, "protection" in Quebec seems to include trampling on individual
rights and liberties. In this thread, by denying access to English schools for
12,000 or so English children living in Quebec:-(

>  En ce qui concerne la culture,
> il n'y a pas de doute que nous avons reussi a concerver une cultre forte
> et originale la ou le Canada anglais a echoue.  En ce qui concerne la
> protection de la langue.  La communaute anglaise n'a pas besoin de s'en 
> faire pour le moment, mais qui sait pour combien de temps.

Neither the English, nor the French language need "protection" IMHO.

There is no reason why English speaking children should not be allowed to
attend English school in Quebec. Where they can learn French, naturally,
as a second language - and learn it well.

-- 
  ///==================================================================\\\
  ||| Steve Potter:         steven%spxtech@CAM.ORG                     |||
  ||| Expertise/Experience: Computer Systems Engineering / Real Ale /  |||
  |||                       Politics in Education in Quebec            |||
Newsgroups: can.politics,soc.culture.canada