From: f43703a@nucc.cc.nagoya-u.ac.jp (SUPRATIC GUPTA)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.islam
Subject: *no subject*
Date: 12 Nov 1992 00:51:30 GMT
Organization: MIT Artificial Intelligence Lab
Reply-To: f43703a@nucc.cc.nagoya-u.ac.jp (SUPRATIC GUPTA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: wookumz.gnu.ai.mit.edu
Originator: gwydion@wookumz.gnu.ai.mit.edu

Reaply To: eoahmad@ntu.ac.sg (Othman Ahmad)

SUPRATIC GUPTA (f43703a@nucc.cc.nagoya-u.ac.jp) wrote:
: Can any one tell me where it is writen in Quran that a 
: Muslim cannot convert to other religion? Can any one
: enlighten me why (Some wrote so) that all muslims should
: kill a person who has come in and out of Islam 3 times?
: Is it written in Quran?

I have not met those verses yet but I've read some references of apostates
being executed in hadith but the circumstances were different. It was 
mocking Islam in the thick of war.


> So it means that it may not be a real part of ISLAM???

: 
: How do a person become Islamic????

Just believe sincerely that
"there is no god but Allah", and
"muhammad is a messenger of god".

: 
: If your son doesnot say that he is your son, then does
: it mean that he not your son. Just because some one
: doesnot beleave that Mohamad is a Prophet, still follow
: every thing he said is a non-muslim. I know that this is
: written so in Quran (Obviously because Mohamad conved it)

I have read a lot of verses of the quran, I do not recall reading this.
But I do know that there are a lot of muslims even before muhammad is born.

But there is a class of muslims called followers of muhammad. 
GUPTA    > You mean there are other classes of muslims also. 
           Thanks then I belong to the other class. I may
           be from a different class, still I am a muslim, 
           not a KHAFIR.

>From my understanding, there are believers of god(muslims) who are recognised
as eligible to go to heaven, such as followers of Isa, Musa, and countless
other prophets(nabis) and messengers(rasuls).

GUPTA    > Can these people marry with each other? 
                     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

The current definition of muslim is the follower of Muhammad. How can you be
a follower if you do not even believe he is a prophet?

GUPTA    > If that is a DEfination it is then your problem.
           It is a local problem. Not a universal one. Any
           way I belong to the other class of muslims. 



I do not really understand what you mean by
 still follow every thing he said ,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
If you really" follow everything he said , then you surely believe that he is
a prophet, otherwise why should you follow.

GUPTA    > I faced this question in email too. I beleave that
           mohamad said is true because I had exactly the same
           principles before ISLAM was introduced to me. It  
           really does not matter to me if Mohamad is a Prophet
           or not. (out of discussion : Similarly it doesnot 
           matter to me if JESUS was a son of GOD or not. Neither
           does it matter to me if ADAM and EVE existed and had
           undergone that event of test. I only care about what
           Jesus or Mohamad has taught us. Why fight over things
           that donot effect our life?)


Let me attempt to predict what I think you try to mean:

"Someone can do whatever is put down in the messages of Prophet MUhammad,
and yet he is still not considered to go to heaven",

To answer that, I just mention that the quran recognises that there are other
prophets apart from those mentioned in the quran.
	I rarely hear saying from muslims that to go to heaven you must be
a muslim, because we are strongly forbidden to say that, it is all UP TO GOD.
ALLAH can do what HE PLEASES.

GUPTA   > To mention the funny thing,(I don't know about you)
          Many muslims call non-muslims(One who doesnot want to
          say the Mohamad is a Prophet or not, not necessorily
          they say that Mohamad is not a Prophet, It just doesnot
          matter to them, ) as KHAFIRS. Remember that Mohamad had
          once said that even within muslims there will be 96 (not sure)
          sects, and only one will reach heaven. From this many
          conclude that all non-muslims are KHAFIRS and will go
          to Hell.



	THE ONLY emphasis is that by being a muslim, it is so much easier,
especially with the guidance and support of Prophet MUhammad. 

GUPTA  >   Not every people is interested in the easiest path.

: Can just one sentence of mouth be make so different to
: God. Do you really beleave that God will send me to hell
: just Because I said that I don't care to know if Mohamad is
: a prophet or not. Please note that I had never said Mohamad
: is not a Prophet. I said I don't care. But I fully respect
: him. I follow all his words. What a funny thing. Still I
: am not a muslim. 
: 
: How do any one really convert to a MUSLIM. Just by words.
: Hold a sword, make him say that he believes so. Then again
: hold a sword to say the reverse. So he has converted 3 times.
: Then Kill him???????

Then the killer deserves to be executed.

GUPTA   > Some one said that if you say that you beleave in Allah
          and if you say that you beleave that Mohamad is his 
          Prophet. Any way how can one speak about what is there
          in the heart. After that Islam is to be learnt like a research.

          Some one else said that if one converts in and out 3 times
          any muslims on sight can kill him. He didnot say about the
          situation of conversion.

          Some one else said that many people during Mohamad's time
          just before getting Killed would  raise there hand and say
          I accept Islam. And then he became ISLAM.

          I caombined all these three statement to frame the Question.
          Here the killer is not a part of question. Here the status of
          the other person is in question.

Conversion is up to god not up to humans.
There is no compulsion in religion.
 I do not understand why you miss this very important facts.
 If you do not even recall this simple statement, you are not interested
 in the TRUTH, rather to believe YOUSELF.
	How could by just words imply that you have concented? It must come
from your heart. You do not have to say it to anyone just believe that
"there is no god but Allah". Then you are saved somehow at least for the
moment that you believe this phrase.
	Why do you think muslims say this phrase thousands of times in their
lives.

GUPTA   > because they don't have self confidence. They waste there
          time repeating that words. It will help this world, if
          do some voluntary work, like going to a village and teaching
          people at that time. Poor people need your help.

If you really want to know the truth, then you'd better find out more. The
most practical one is to study the quran and phrases of Prophet MUhammad.

GUPTA    > I am doing my master course. I will start reading from March.

If you believe in the quran, then you'll know that MUhammad is just one of
the prophets, and he does not convey anything new, just to straighten things up.	The next step will be to believe that
"muhammad is a messenger of god". 
As to whether you'll go to heaven or not, it is up to your furhter actions,
to reinforce your "beliefs". SAying it is only the very first step, not the
only step.
GUPTA   >  I replied to to that question many times. I care for his
           teachings , I respect him. I don't care if he is a Prophet or
           not. But please not that I never say that he is not a Prophet.

--
Othman bin Ahmad, School of EEE,
Nanyang Technological University, Singapore 2263.
Internet Email: eoahmad@ntuix.ntu.ac.sg
Bitnet Email: eoahmad@ntuvax.bitnet

          WITH regards,
          I am sure I have hurt many of you reader. But please
          bear the pain and try to see what really I want to say.
          SUPRATIC GUPTA