HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ag055@yfn.ysu.edu (Ward Chanley)
Subject: Re: Women and Men Witches
Organization: Youngstown State University/Youngstown Free-Net
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 03:20:24 GMT


Daniel, I'm not denying that there may
indeed be woman-hating Queers around
(Burroughs is a good example, I hadn't
thought of that).  You said that you
knew "many" Gay men that would disagree
and, even though it was probably a joke
it was THAT inference that I objected
to...

And it has nothing to do with the ratio
of Gay men to straight men in the
society.  It has to do with an old
homophobic assumption that Queers as a
species don't like girls, find them
icky and generally run around with
arms aloft saying things like "drop
the fish"; on the contrary, most
(an overwhelming majority, in fact) of
Gay men that I know (myself included)
adore women, and women adore us.

If you know all that many Gay men with
other ideas, get a new circle of 
acquaintances.

--
From: alizard@pil
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: another anti-gay measure eats it
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 92 20:24:19 PST


The infamous Measure M in Concord, CA (anti-gay initiative, the usual crap
about making it illegal to pass anti-discrimination measures, etc.) got
struck down by a local court, and it appears that the City Council, despite
the presence of a member of the Traditional Values Coalition will not
appeal. 

It was apparently virtually identical to a measure that was passed somewhere
in So. Cal. that also got trashed. 

Blessings...
                                                 A.Lizard
====== 93 ====== mea saurus, mea saurus, mea maxima saurus! ====== 93 ======
                  (slogan contributed by Jessica McGeary)
Mail to me should be sent to:       |  There are no fnords in this sig file.
alizard%tweekco%boo@PacBell.COM     |  autoreply to address I posted this
     ^^^ preferred site ^^^         |  from only if you want to wait a
PacBell.COM!boo!tweekco!alizard     |  solstice or two for my answer.
alizard@seer.mystic.com             |              Kallisti!
^^^use ONLY if all else fails       |  PGP2.0 public key available on request
Organization: University of Maine System
Date: Friday, 20 Nov 1992 11:02:41 EST
From: <IO20393@MAINE.MAINE.EDU>
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Women and Men Witches

A reading suggestion..._The Skeptical Feminist_ by Barbara G Walker
She's a bit anti-men at times, but it's definately a thought-provoking
book!
Blessings,
amy rae
From: dhardin@bbn.com (Dawn Hardin)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Scummy behavior of pagan males
Date: 16 Nov 1992 19:04:35 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Host: bbn.com

In article <1992Nov16.102307.44819@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu>, kumagic@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu (Stephen R. Figgins) writes:
> Some examples within and without the community.
> 
> A prominent pagan couple announced their divorce this year.  Reasons
> given, their relationship for the last few years had become physically
> abusive, arguments culminating with him beating up her. 

[examples of scummy behavior deleted.]

> I can think of plenty more, these just leapt to mind as examples of
> men's scummy behavior both within and without our community.  I would
> be interested in hearing others examples of men's scummy behavior
> within the pagan community.   Or am I the only one who notices this
> stuff?  It has been said that men within the pagan community were
> different than men outside the community in their relations to women.
> I have said this is not very true.  What do others think?

A pagan cat once puddled in my laundry.  In fact, more than once.  At first,
he only puddled if he didn't get his catnip, but then I started storing the
catnip with my other herbs in my altar.  That's when he discovered valerian.
I used to think Fluffy got hyper on catnip -- on valerian, he used to 
throw himself from the top of stair railings onto my ankles.  He'd get
frantic trying to get into my altar.  The little SOB broke the horns off
of my horned god, and when that didn't work, he started pissing on my
altar. 

Anyway, I think that a lot of pagan cats (and dogs too - no bigotry here)
have really scummy behavior.  It's hard to admit that your familiar wets
on your ankle, steals fries off your dinner plate, and sits on your face
when you sleep, but how many of us have put up with this kind of behavior?  
I bet we all have and just won't admit it.  That's why I'm a sheep 
supremacist.  I've never had a sheep sit on my face.

(Stephen -- I hope you laugh and don't take this as mockery.  OK, I hope
you don't take it as *too much* mockery.)

Dawn

Joseph Campbell gave me hope and now I have been saved.
"Folk Song" by Bongwater
From: ksm@abb-sc.abb-sc.com (Ashley)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Guns & self defense
Date: 19 Nov 92 18:55:30 GMT
Organization: Kaos Laboratories


In article <1eeihdINNil6@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>, bz269@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (James D. Del Vecchio) writes...
> 
> 
>	If you are the same person who posted about considering a first
>time handgun purchace around the time of the riots, and had the story about


	Don't know who that was, didn't see the posting. It wasn't me, though.


>	Even if not, I have a hard time believing that "potent", "spurt",
>etc. above,  came from any place other than your own imagination.  

	Well, I posted a reference to my experience in the gun shop as an 
illuminating reference and if you have a hard time believing it, then you don't 
have to. Doesn't matter to me if you do or don't.


>    "...and then my greasy dentist fondled the shaft of his dental tool
>that he wanted to use on me and talked about how deep it could "probe" 
>my "orfice".  Not as "penetrating" as his drill, mind you, but it can 
>really "fill my cavity" I think he said.  Just sick.  Those dentists
>are all the same."

	Oh please. Be a reasonable person and not a self-rightous jerk, won't 
you? You might make some friends that way. Honestly, you should find something 
better to do with your time than insulting me. Life's more fun when you are not 
picking fights and making enemies.



				- Ashley



	"It's an illusion of life, the whole cause of our demise.... "   -   DCD
From: cn573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ray Henry)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Care and Feeding of Staves
Date: 15 Nov 1992 19:41:54 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


Regarding the care of staves, I like lemon oil for softer woods.
Hardwoods can normally fend for themselves quite well. (Stay away
from lemon *juice* however. A friend of mine got the two confused
and did not get good results.)

Antryg
(No cute sigfile yet.)
From: c1741@moncol.monmouth.edu (MICHAEL CARSON)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: the US elections...
Date: 18 Nov 92 16:58:22 GMT
Organization: Monmouth College, W. Long Branch, N.J.  07764

In article <1992Nov11.083707.29169@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com> billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson) writes:
>altheimm@nextnet.csus.edu (Murray Altheim) writes:
>
>: argument. The incidents of both automatic and semi-automatic weapons
>: abuses (such as the schoolyard killing in Stockton, California a few
>: years ago, the Texas restaurant attack, or the recent schoolyard incident
>: in Sacramento, just to name a few I'm familiar with) involve non-hunting
>: style weapons, ie., automatic or semi-automatic weapons designed for
>: military use. 

	If you are so terribly familiar with them, which one involved automatic
weapons?
	At least in the Texas incident, the death toll would have been MUCH
lower if there had been ONE armed, trained and responsible citizen in there.

>: I still fail to see ANY argument justifying public access
>: to these weapons. 

	I believe I just made an argument for the possession of at least some
weapons.  Full-auto weapons are justifiable for the same reason as say a TV.
Both are non-essentials, that cause enjoyment in the owner.  Granted the
full-auto weapon is more dangerous, but I am unaware of ANY crimes committed
using legal full-auto weapons.  ILLEGAL and SEMI-auto, sure.  But most of the
crimes commited with them would be possible, and not significantly more
difficult with common home chemicals.

>: And this ignores the issue that many semi-automatics
>: can be easily modified to become automatics; in fact, there are small
>: pamphlets on how to do so.

	The ease of conversion is debateable.  The POSSIBILITY of
conversion is a case of corporate irresponsibility.  Most semi-auto versions
of full-auto weapons simply have a part or two removed, to lock them
into semi-auto firing,  These parts, unless other measures are taken,
can be replaced.  Colt is one manufacturer who had this problem, with their
M-16/AR-15 line.  Recently, they started selling their Sporter model. It is
an M-16, with the requisite parts removed, and a chunk of solid metal 
built into to ensure that the parts cannot be replaced.

|o|\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/|o|
|o| Of Course I speak  |      michael carson       | Carpe Diem, Man.        |o|
|o|  only for myself.  | c1741@moncol.monmouth.edu | Carpe Vitam, too.       |o|
|o| Would YOU let me   +---------------------------+-------------------------|o|
|o|  speak for you?!?  |      All flames to: nobody@moncol.monmouth.edu      |o|
|o|\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/|o|
From: gnome@flash.ATC.Olivetti.Com (Gary)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: That GUN flame --
Date: 20 Nov 92 02:23:59 GMT
Distribution: na

I've always found it funny that the people who are the least
trusting in the government and it's actions also happen to
be the most rabidly into gun control (banning.)

On one hand, they'll whine about the millions of witches
killed in times past, they'll be outraged about institutionalized
abuse and killings in other supposedly civilised countries,
but they will always insist that things like that can't happen
here because a piece of paper says it can't.

And Pat Robertson was running for president...

Gary

(
 :->=
(
From: ksm@abb-sc.abb-sc.com (Ashley)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Guns & self defense
Date: 17 Nov 92 18:16:27 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Kaos Laboratories


In article <1992Nov17.100728.7415@csus.edu>, gharlane@nextnet.csus.edu (Gharlane of Eddore) writes...


> Don't count on it.   On at least a couple occasions in my life, I
> stayed alive solely because I happened to be carrying a semi-automatic 
> pistol and be competent in its use.  When you're faced with a GROUP
> of armed scum, unless you're as fast as greased lightning, a 
> revolver simply won't do the job.   If I hadn't been carrying a 
> nice old Model 1911A-1 Colt, I'd have gotten killed. 

	You have made a very effective argument for being armed, but I noticed 
something that was missing. Most of the situations you describe are avoidable. 
The psychotic ex-whatever turning up armed at the door is an exception, but 
Camille Paglia was correct in her example that you don't walk down a dark 
alleyway alone if you don't want to get assulted. 
	I'm *not* saying that this is what you did, but it is true and knowing 
how *not* to get into a voilent situation is the first thing they teach you in 
many marshal arts and self-defense classes. I have found this to be very 
usefull and cannot imagine putting myself in a situation where I was going to 
be surrounded by gun toting thugs. 

	The other thing I'm noticing about a number of the posts here is the 
chest thumping. I'm *not* talking about anyone in particular, I don't want to 
point any statements out, but I have noticed a lot of the descriptions and 
diatribes being posted remind me of adolecent males talking about their dicks. 
Handguns, rifles, machine guns, all described with loving joy. These are 
weapons for killing people we are talking about! Just keep that in mind. It's 
starting to sound as bad as my trip to the gunshop where a greasy man fondled 
the barrel of a gun he wanted to sell me and talked about how fast it could 
"spurt" bullets. Not as "potent" as his gun of course, but it can really 
"spew out the lead". Just sick.



			- Ashley 
		(probably out of my depth, but I don't care)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: ag055@yfn.ysu.edu (Ward Chanley)
Subject: Re: Women and Men Witches
Organization: Youngstown State University/Youngstown Free-Net
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 15:02:43 GMT


Wholehearted agreement.  YOu mentioned Margaret Thatcher, who is an obvious case
of a woman who adpoted "male" strategies to succeed in a male-dominated
area.

----------

That comment is central to my whole 
point: in a patriarchal society, you 
will undoubtedly find women operating
within a patriarchal model in order to
remain empowered.  I question the auto-
matic assumption, however, that in a 
culture operating from a matriarchal 
conciousness that women will need to
adopt "male" behavior in order to 
accomplish anything.

Daniel has repeatedly made the point
that women are equally capable of the
"power-over" abuses of which I accuse
patriarchy; this isn't surprising,
since these women are operating within
a patriarchal structure of empowerment
and thus feel the need to play by its
rules.  If we eliminate the patriarchy,
we're not setting up a new "power-over"
structure, we're CHANGING those rules
alltogether.

Blessed Be,
Ward

--
From: alizard@pil
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: re: women and men witches
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 92 04:01:44 PST

Re: Re: Women and Men Witches
 
> From: ag055@yfn.ysu.edu (Ward Chanley)
> Newsgroups: alt.pagan
> Subject: Re: Women and Men Witches
> Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 03:08:39 GMT
> The only mistake the Matriarchy made 
> was in assuming that their sons would
> never take up arms against their
> mothers.  When violent overthrow 
> happened, the life-affirmative, art
> creating cultures of the Goddess were
> unprepared to deal with such violence.
> War was never their thing; art, music
> and worship were.

Actually, the Goddess cultures were taken over via invasion from the outside,
this does not mean that they didn't have warriors, just that they were not
equipped to resist attacks from cultures whose primary focus was war. 
The number of people in favor of armed self defense around here indicates that
we have learned to some extent from the mistakes of our spiritual ancestors.
                                                 A.Lizard
====== 93 ====== mea saurus, mea saurus, mea maxima saurus! ====== 93 ======
                  (slogan contributed by Jessica McGeary)
Mail to me should be sent to:       |  There are no fnords in this sig file.
alizard%tweekco%boo@PacBell.COM     |  autoreply to address I posted this
     ^^^ preferred site ^^^         |  from only if you want to wait a
PacBell.COM!boo!tweekco!alizard     |  solstice or two for my answer.
alizard@seer.mystic.com             |              Kallisti!
^^^use ONLY if all else fails       |  PGP2.0 public key available on request

Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: holzman@fnalno.fnal.gov (Daniel B. Holzman)
Subject: Re: Women and Men Witches
Organization: Fermi National Accelerator Lab
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 21:59:32 GMT
X-Posted-From: fnalno.fnal.gov
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In article <92325.110241IO20393@MAINE.MAINE.EDU>, <IO20393@MAINE.MAINE.EDU> 
writes:
> A reading suggestion..._The Skeptical Feminist_ by Barbara G Walker
> She's a bit anti-men at times, but it's definately a thought-provoking
> book!
> Blessings,
> amy rae

I've read it.  She's one of the people I would point to as an example of
Matriarchy as a power-over system.

-- 
Daniel B. Holzman                    | Eight Words the Witch's Rede Fufill:
HOLZMAN@FNAL.BITNET                  | An It Harm None, Do What You Will
HOLZMAN@FNALC.FNAL.GOV.INTERNET      |
                                     | All Acts of Love and Pleasure are
Love doesn't subtract,               | Her Rituals
   it multiplies    - Heinlein       |
                                     | Speak the Word.
Disclaimer:  Fermilab's far too large to have an opinion, let alone mine.
From: mkkuhner@phylo.genetics.washington.edu (Mary K. Kuhner)
Subject: Mikey
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 20:28:43 GMT


I wanted to share a heartwarming experience from the Community Full Moon
celebration last night.

The ritual was quite late in getting started, and I was sitting on the
floor listening to people chat when a little boy, maybe 5 years old, ran
over to me and sat down on my lap.  "What's your name?" he said and put
his arms around me.

I was quite startled; I told him my name, and asked him his.  "Mikey!"
he said with a big grin, and ran off to hug someone else.  As it turned
out, the ritual was about 45 minutes late, and during that time
practically everyone in the room got to play with Mikey.  It turned out
he liked to play tag, and to be swung or spun around in the air.  He'd
come up between two people who were talking and take their hands, and
expect them to swing him up in the air.  After about the fourth time,
when my arms were beginning to get tired, I told him he was a pig.
After that when he swung he'd go "oink, oink!" with great delight.

Once in a while he'd become frightened or dizzy from being swung, and
run back to cuddle with his mother (one of the Elders of the community)
for a few minutes.

When we practiced square dancing he was right in there dancing with
us--underfoot, and rather a hazard, but obviously enjoying every moment
of it.  He also sat through the ritual very nicely, carrying his
cup of cider with obvious care, and helped pick up the used cups
afterwards.

I've never met such a wonderful child, and I have to say--if the
pagan community can raise children like Mikey, and treat them so
well they retain that trust and love, there's hope for us yet.

Mary Kuhner mkkuhner@genetics.washington.edu
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: uphrrmk@Msu.oscs.montana.edu
Subject: Re: could someone with Covenant of the Goddess contact me?
Reply-To: uphrrmk@Msu.oscs.montana.edu
Organization: Montana State University
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 00:20:22 GMT

In article <gate.VgqcuB1w165w@pil.UUCP>, alizard@pil writes:
>
>I mean specifically someone from the San Francisco East Bay area...
A. Lizard! A. Lizard!!!!!
   This has nothing to do with Sam Francisco, (Though I'd love to see it!)
I just wanted to say thank you for the letter you wrote me about a month or so
ago.  I tried to mail you, but for some reason it wouldn't go through.
It was such a lovely , cheering letter about so many women with actual brains
on the net.  I felt so badly that I couldn't say thank you, so I say it now.  I
hope you' ll be able to read this soon.
         As for everyone else, hiya!  I'm back!!!

                   !Besos! @ * @
                           [___]  (A  silly face drawing)

>thanks                             La Mort.
>blessings
>                                                 A.Lizard
>====== 93 ====== mea saurus, mea saurus, mea maxima saurus! ====== 93 ======
>                  (slogan contributed by Jessica McGeary)
>Mail to me should be sent to:       |  There are no fnords in this sig file.
>alizard%tweekco%boo@PacBell.COM     |  autoreply to address I posted this
>     ^^^ preferred site ^^^         |  from only if you want to wait a
>PacBell.COM!boo!tweekco!alizard     |  solstice or two for my answer.
>alizard@seer.mystic.com(backup site)|              Kallisti!
>
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: feathers@eskimo.com (Cheryl Owen)
Subject: Re: rats
Summary: *sniff* my rats died...
Organization: <<< ESKIMO NORTH (206)-FOR-EVER >>>
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 15:30:14 GMT

  Yeah, some of my rats died under anesthesia in a vet's office.  They
had developed growths; the growths themselves were non-cancerous and not
painful, but the vet advised that they would continue to grow and the 
rats would be more comfortable with the growths removed.  Well, I dunno
if "metabolically challenged," i.e. dead, qualifies as "more
comfortable."  After several episodes of that, I came to the conclusion
that rats either don't deal well with anesthesia or that vet wasn't very
skilled at determining the proper amount to give so small an animal.
  All my other rats save one eventually died of cancer.
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: markbr%radian@natinst.com (markbr)
Subject: Re: Guns & self defense
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 22:32:14 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: n.o.y.b

In article <JJAS.92Nov22123350@acs.nntp-read.bu.edu> jjas@acs.nntp-read.bu.edu (Jason Stephenson) writes:
>I will tell you why criminals commit crimes: why murderers murder and why
>rpists rape> because it is perfectly natural for the human animal to do these
>things.  

Nope. Sorry. You are implying that they are *all* done for the *same* reason,
which simply isn't true. Is the person who kills, in the course of a robbery,
the same as someone who says, I don't like this person, I'll figure out how
I can kill them & not get caught, the same? Suppose the robber was holding up 
a bank, because their family needed medical care, and couldn't afford it? Or
suppose it was a Muslim in Bosnia, whose people hadn't been able to get food
in weeks, and he had a chance to get some from the Serb "paramilitary"? In
that case, is starving someone else "natural"?

>For the 60,000 years that our species has existed we have raped and
>killed as a matter of course, a matter of survival.  Now, in the last one 

Sorry again. Rape, as a matter of survival? *EVERY* study *I* ever heard of
says that rape has nothing, even, to do with sex: it is power over, for
someone who feels powerless.

>thousand years some philosopher decides that killing is 'bad' and that we must
>not kill any longer.  So, someone is going to tell me that 60,000 years of

The last thousand years? As far as I know, killing, excepting, of course, war
and judicial murder, has *always* been bad. Check out the code of Hammurabi,
from, what, 1500-2000 (or was it older) BCE.

>biological programming is 'wrong?'  Humans are violent by nature.  You cannot

Bullshit. I *personally* *never* been in a real fight in my life, and I grew
up in a neighborhood that was 95% black, anb rough, by the time I was 10.
And no, I don't crawl.

>tell me that our ancestors who hunted animals with masses of over ten times 
>that of a Homo sapiens were not ferocious.  Remember, all they had for a weapon
>was a poiinty stick or broken rock.  We have changed little in these 60,000

Those animals, they stampeded over cliffs (the preferred method). Remember,
cattle weigh a lot more than wolves, too.

>years.  On the inside, in the deepest part of our brains, we are the same
>animal.  What has changed are our external condidtions of living and our con-
>scious level of thought.  But our desires, our needs, our instincts remain
>esentially the same.  If you want a psychological explanation for rapes and 
>crime and how our unnatural living conditions affect the human brain in an
>adverse manner read Freud's _Civilisation and its Discontents_.  I will tell 

What I know about that book, though I have not read it, is that Freud comes
to the conclusion you do, but is afraid to take the next logical step: that
society must be changed.

>you this, humans are not, by nature, peaceful.  Sixty thousand years of non-
>evolution prove that we remain ferocious predators.  You might also want to 
>read Desmond Morris', _The Naked Ape_.
>
>	Jason

	mark
Newsgroups: alt.pagan