HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: s1mbm@isuvax.iastate.edu (michael bruce mcdonald)
Subject: it seems to be about vision . . .
Reply-To: s1mbm@isuvax.iastate.edu
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, Iowa
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 07:10:17 GMT

Frankly, I'm much more interested in discussing books than getting into
a hopelessly long-winded virtual shouting match over a *review* of a book
that none of us has yet read.

I was going to let Dani Zweig's post just go by, but I'll just say this:
Zweig's post is impeccably logical if one accepts the initial premise, which
is that education used to be "value-free."  As that premise is profoundly
absurd, however, the rest of the edifice topples of its own accord.

Thanks to Mike Morris for the clarifying post; if nothing else, I feel that
I now know something about Morris's heartfelt concerns, and that Morris 
isn't just jerking the knee at the spectre of 'liberal' indoctrination.
I'm not sure that I can yet say the same for McCarthy or Zweig.

I must say, in closing, that I still cannot see from the review that was
posted how some of you can be so damn sure that the author's goals are to
indoctrinate rather than to educate.  At any rate, thank the deity of your
choice, the upcoming generation seems to have more sense than to deny the
cogency of the notion of caring for the environment, by and large.

michael mcdonald
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,misc.books.technical,alt.internet.services,comp.org.eff.talk
From: jmacphai@cue.bc.ca (James MacPhail)
Subject: Re: The Online BookStore Announcement: The Internet Companion
Organization: Softwords Research International Ltd., Victoria, B.C., Canada
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 92 10:15:25 GMT

>>> That still doesn't explain the part about it being a best
>>> seller when it just came out ;).
>>
>>What about the introduction by Al Gore?  It's signed:
>>
>>"Vice President Al Gore, August, 1992
>>
>>Hmmm, the authors knew it would be a best seller before it hit the
>>stores, *and* Al Gore knew back in August that he would win the 
>>election......
>
>Hmmm...my copy says "Senator Al Gore, August 1992"
>It's the first printing, October 92...
>

The best-seller part is no mystery. They just go out and buy their own book
in sufficient quantity to hit the volume mark. (Then re-sell them, I guess?)

Dunno about this election thing though... maybe it works on the same
principle? :-}

James MacPhail  jmacphai@cue.bc.ca  james@mirg2.phy.queensu.ca
From: BL.JYC@forsythe.stanford.edu (Jon Corelis)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Police Procedural  (Was Re: Sjowall & Wahloo)
Date: 28 Dec 1992 13:49:02 -0800
Organization: Stanford University
Distribution: usa
NNTP-Posting-Host: morrow.stanford.edu

   I've enjoyed police procedurals by:

   James Melville.  These concern a Japanese police chief called Otani,
and are very knowledgeable about Japanese culture.

   K. C. Constantine.  About a small-town police chief in the
Pennsylvania mining country.  I've expressed my opinion here before that
these are among the best novels of any genre currently being written in
America.

   Peter Lovesey.  Many of his novels concern a pair of police officers
working in Victorian London.  The atmosphere of the period is evoked
with meticulous accuracy.

   Robert H. van Gulik.  Series by a Dutch Sinologist featuring a famous
judge from Chinese history who was renowned for his ability to solve
crimes.

   Janwillem van de Wetering.  Interesting series about a pair of
contemporary Amsterdam police officers.

   H. R. F. Keating.  His series about Inspector Ganesh Ghote, Bombay
C.I.D., is one of the most entertaining around, with lots of Indian
local color.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: tmaddox@netcom.com (Tom Maddox)
Subject: Re: *Any* kind of r.a.b split, or at least a *serious* discussion
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 07:57:08 GMT

In article <1992Dec24.181422.19391@netcom.com> dani@netcom.com (Dani Zweig) writes:
>tmaddox@netcom.com (Tom Maddox):
>>In fact, if the majority were lunatic enough to conform to your 
>>restrictions, r.a.b. would become a very dull place indeed.  The implied
>>maxim of "do not offend, whatever the cost"...
>
>I don't recall offering any explicit restrictions, 

	Which is why I used the word "implied."

>>Again, if you understand the difference between speaking and
>>writing, you won't invoke this "defense."
>
>You had to, however awkwardly:
>
>>>>A *joking* attitude, it's called, and is easily recognized as such
>>>>by anyone with either a clue or a sense of humor.

	There's no invocation of the difference between speaking and
writing, either expressed or implied.  The recognition that someone is
joking can occur in either medium.  


>You shouldn't offend people unintentionally.  

	Sez who?

>It suggests an incomplete mastery of the medium.  

	No, as several people have pointed out to you, offense can be taken
where none was intended. 

>If you don't *care* whether you're as offensive
>as an Oscar Wilde or a Dorothy Parker, then the question becomes: are you 
>as witty as an Oscar Wilde or Dorothy Parker?

	The question to you, perhaps, and you'll have to make your own call,
but to me that is not the question, which was, rather, whom do you wish to
emulate?  That I or anyone else falls short of Wilde's or Parker's wit is 
hardly surprising, and even to ask the question is disingenumous.
-- 
				Tom Maddox
		    	    tmaddox@netcom.com
	"That's a bird bone, chair, Bob.  I don't know if I should sit there."
				Tom Waits
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: mnemonic@eff.org (Mike Godwin)
Subject: Re: Sjowall & Wahloo and other series
Originator: mnemonic@eff.org
Organization: Electronic Frontier Foundation
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 22:14:26 GMT

In article <1992Dec30.205213.25688@samba.oit.unc.edu> joan@med.unc.edu (Joan Shields) writes:

>They did a damn good job of it as well.  I enjoy the series because of the
>well-developed characters they aren't always one way or another ie:
>sometimes Lennart Kollberg can be an ass and sometimes you just want to
>shake Martin Beck - Gunvald Larsson is a very interesting character, a lot
>more complex than most of his fellow policemen realize.

It is a measure of how well they perform their job that readers of the
series are stunned when some minor characters, whom we've seen in the
early books of the series, are killed in a particular sudden and brutal
fashion. It was a very effective setup.


--Mike





-- 
Mike Godwin,    |"I'm waiting for the one-man revolution
mnemonic@eff.org| The only one that's coming."
(617) 864-0665  |                           
EFF, Cambridge  |                   --Robert Frost 
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: ssc@nwu.edu (Steven Chung)
Subject: Re: Morison (was Re: Retrospection of My 1992 Reading)
Originator: schung@casbah.acns.nwu.edu
Organization: Northwestern University, Evanston Illinois.
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 01:57:24 GMT

In article <C07FEG.IEL@watserv2.uwaterloo.ca> msmorris@watsci.UWaterloo.ca (Mike Morris) writes:
# I certainly haven't seen even an abridgment of Hakluyt in bookstores since
# I've started looking (but that's been only this year).

There is a Penguin Classics abridged Hakluyt.

Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: tmaddox@netcom.com (Tom Maddox)
Subject: Re: Stark Naked
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 09:25:46 GMT

In article <JMC.92Dec23183851@SAIL.Stanford.EDU> jmc@cs.Stanford.EDU writes:
>The _American Spectator_ lists as its law firm "Solitary, Poor, Nasty,
>Brutish and Short".

	I wonder which came first--theirs or the one in _Gravity's Rainbow_
named, as I remember it, Saltieri, Poore, Nash, de Brutus, and Short.


-- 
				Tom Maddox
		    	    tmaddox@netcom.com
	"That's a bird bone, chair, Bob.  I don't know if I should sit there."
				Tom Waits
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: kamorgan@athena.mit.edu (Keith Morgan)
Subject: The in-crowds of usenet
Followup-To: world
Keywords: opus dei, illuminati, rabble
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 17:44:02 GMT

The rabble who see this group as either elitist or infuriatingly
populist may be amused by the Dec. 26th *Economist*. In an article
entitled "The Good Network Guide" you will find, after explanations of
Yale's Skull and Bones, the Freemasons, the Communist Party, and other
elitist organizations, a section on USENET and Internet. The
*Economist* observes that "USENET ... was always populist" and that
while Internet's speciality is sharing software and services, "USENET
specialises in argument." The article concludes with the thought: "In
the high-tech world, if you're not on the net. you're not in the
know."

So, is this us: Populist, argumentative, and in the know?  

BTW, there's also an article on the history of censorship with mention
of Hodder & Stoughton's bowdlerization of Enid Blyon's "Famous Five"
books.  

Happy '93 all

Keith
--

Keith Morgan kamorgan@athena.mit.edu
In the end nothing could be said of his work except that it was
preposterous and true and totally unacceptable. Edward Whittemore
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer)
Subject: Re: No Wise Man here (Re: *Any* kind of r.a.b split, or at least a *serious* discussion)
Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting, Cambridge MA
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1992 04:32:40 GMT

In article <JMC.92Dec25115357@SAIL.Stanford.EDU> jmc@cs.Stanford.EDU writes:
>Still calling someone a `(fat lazy ,X) is a sin of minor proportions.

For some X. :-)

>I expect I have been called fat and lazy, though not to my face.  My
>second wife sometimes referred to me as "my fat husband" - most often
>when it was a question of climbing some mountain.

If someone should call me "fat and lazy" based on my hacker's physique
and my lack of mountaineering skills, I won't have much ground to
disagree.  If someone chooses to call me a "fat, lazy homo" in the
context of discussing my "oeuvre" (such as it is), I think that person
is sorely in need of better critical terms.  The insult misses the mark
(that it's also a fact is neither here nor there, since the intent is
not to describe but to disparage).  It also leaves the critic open to
charges that s/he has a bit of a problem with fat, lazy homos in
general, or perhaps even with all homos.

Anyway, I thought Michael stepped out of the fray with a perfectly acceptable
apology which managed to note that offense was taken without the requisite
display of dudgeon.  That alone is pretty classy.

-- 
Steve Dyer
dyer@ursa-major.spdcc.com aka {ima,harvard,rayssd,linus,m2c}!spdcc!dyer
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: kamorgan@athena.mit.edu (Keith Morgan)
Subject: Re: Stark Naked
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 16:35:28 GMT

In article <1992Dec23.233225.529@u.washington.edu> hoosiers@carson.u.washington.edu (Mary Loveless) writes:

>In the mid-70s, a UW law student told me that he had become acquainted
>with a trio of fellow students named (he swore it was true):  Swindler,
>Lawless, and Moneymaker.  Ah, if only they had set up a practice together! 
>
>Also, during that era, a pair of dental practitioners named Carey
>(brothers--did they go into auto mechanics later?), set up practice in the
>University district.  They immediately became known as the 'Dental
>Careys.'
 	I once had an optometrist: Dr B.D. Eagle

	Keith


--

Keith Morgan kamorgan@athena.mit.edu
In the end nothing could be said of his work except that it was
preposterous and true and totally unacceptable. Edward Whittemore
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: grant@clarinet.com (Grant Robinson)
Subject: Re: Non-rabelaisian farts were flatulence was Ngaio Marsh
Organization: ClariNet Communications Corp.
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 00:13:26 GMT

In article <1h8388INNj75@morrow.stanford.edu> BL.JYC@forsythe.stanford.edu (Jon Corelis) writes:
>In article <Bzo70n.39M@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk>,
>jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin) writes:
>
>>                                 An anecdote which I think comes from
>>Wilfred Thesiger's "Arabian Sands" suggests there may be such: farting in
>>public used to be deeply shameful in Arab society.  Thesiger describes
>>a man, X, who had the misfortune to fart at a banquet presided over by his
>>tribal chief, and went into exile as result.  Many years later, thinking
>>his disgrace had been expiated, he returned home.  On the edge of the town
>>he met a teenage boy, and asked him how old he was...  "I don't know, but
>>I was born in the year that X farted at the chief's banquet".  X turned
>>round and sadly went back into the desert.
>>
>
>   I've never read Thesiger's book, but there's a very similar story in
>the Arabian Nights, which in the Burton version is called I think "How
>Abu Hassan Brake Wind."

In the translation I have, it's titled "The Historic Fart."  I prefer 
Burton's title, and find myself wondering if the name Abu Hassan adds 
even more context in the native version.  Anyone know Arabic?
-- 
Grant Robinson -- ClariNet Communications Corp, Sunnyvale, CA 
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,alt.politics.homosexuality
From: zhu@athena.mit.edu (Erin Zhu)
Subject: Re: Fuck this thread (was Re: Morally good necessary possible sometimes possible reproductiveness)
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 06:53:10 GMT

In article <1992Dec21.222509.19819@dcs.qmw.ac.uk>
arodgers@dcs.qmw.ac.uk (Angus H Rodgers) writes:

>In <1992Dec21.212040.13717@athena.mit.edu>
>zhu@athena.mit.edu (Erin Zhu) writes:

>>>	So, Erin, it's up to you. Show us the warm, cuddly Mickey that melts
>>>your heart. 

>>Hey, the man's got a net.reputation to keep up, y'know? 

>Something like Darth Vader, isn't it?

Oh yes, every bit as dashing.

(did I say that?!?)

>Does he take the suit off in bed? :-)

It rather depends on the (possible) co-occupant of the bed, I think,
although I've never been able to verify that hypothesis myself.

>Anyway, thanks, Erin: this post of yours has made my day. Really! I 
>just keep re-reading it, and a daft smile keeps creeping over my face.
>It works every time.

What can I say, we try, we try... 

>(Or failing that, "The Collected Flames of Michael Zeleny", Vols. 
>I - XXVIII, would keep us addicts happy.)

Be careful what you ask for.  If I ever straighten out the little
Sparcstation at home, the 'net might just be threatened with the
complete volumn of flames of MZ in its entire splendor.  

(uh, why do I see people hiding?)

Oh okay, okay, I'll be a good girl and...

never mind.

  --Erin
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer)
Subject: Re: Project B.F.D. (was: An apology)
Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting, Cambridge MA
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 07:33:14 GMT

In article <1992Dec24.005928.8573@Cadence.COM> vince@cadence.com (Vince Gibboni) writes:
>    you've got this all wrong. The motive, I think, is not so much a noble 
>    protection of the trodden-upon as a selfish interest in not having every 
>    new, interesting, reasonably-clever poster sent scrambling off into 
>    oblivion after being scared (or pissed) off by, for instance, one of 
>    Tom's lapses into the literary equivalent of Torret's syndrome. (sp?)

Tourette's Syndrome includes an irresistable compulsion to emit
profanity at _inappropriate_ times.  Though it appears rarely in
females, perhaps you were thinking of Heather's most recent articles.

-- 
Steve Dyer
dyer@ursa-major.spdcc.com aka {ima,harvard,rayssd,linus,m2c}!spdcc!dyer
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: mnemonic@eff.org (Mike Godwin)
Subject: Re: Ngaio Marsh info requested
Originator: mnemonic@eff.org
Organization: Electronic Frontier Foundation
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 21:19:49 GMT

In article <BzGyG6.2t1@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk> jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin) writes:
>
>"Tama" contains a
>Rabelaisian piece about farting ....

I'm trying to think of some non-Rabelaisian pieces about farting. Are
there any?

--Mike



-- 
Mike Godwin,    |"I'm waiting for the one-man revolution
mnemonic@eff.org| The only one that's coming."
(617) 864-0665  |                           
EFF, Cambridge  |                   --Robert Frost 
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: mnemonic@eff.org (Mike Godwin)
Subject: Re: Project B.F.D. (was: An apology)
Originator: mnemonic@eff.org
Organization: Electronic Frontier Foundation
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 21:17:57 GMT

In article <1992Dec21.181401.6123@u.washington.edu> hoosiers@carson.u.washington.edu (Mary Loveless) writes:

>To those who drive a mental bulldozer but think of it as
>a sporty vintage car, and to those who who assume the mental vehicle is
>fragile and likely to break down in heavy traffic, when it actually
>accelerates beautifully and could survive a serious collision, I say: 
>Look at what you really have, in terms of thinking power, knowledge and
>background and celebrate it, don't use it as a weapon.  A volley ball,
>though.......?  

And I say: Mary never metaphor she didn't like.


--Mike





-- 
Mike Godwin,    |"I'm waiting for the one-man revolution
mnemonic@eff.org| The only one that's coming."
(617) 864-0665  |                           
EFF, Cambridge  |                   --Robert Frost 
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: tmaddox@netcom.com (Tom Maddox)
Subject: Re: *Any* kind of r.a.b split, or at least a *serious* discussion
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1992 22:13:31 GMT

In article <1992Dec23.225738.5298@cbnewsd.cb.att.com> lew@cbnewsd.cb.att.com (lewis.h.mammel..jr) writes:
>
>In article <1992Dec23.191329.10077@netcom.com>, tmaddox@netcom.com (Tom Maddox) writes:
>The boys throw stones at the frogs in jest, but the frogs die in earnest.
>> 
>> 	Imaginary gardens with real toads?

>I was thinking along the lines of, well, perhaps little psychic
>frogs that we all have within us ... Smurf pelts come to mind here, eh?

	Your metaphors are so mixed at this point that I cannot help you,
but you seem to be implying that bad remarks on newsgroups kill the smurfs
within (???).  If so, might I suggest that this is not a bad thing?

>> 	I don't think so, Mr. Mammel.  Whatever stones we exchanged on a
>> previous occasion (and there *was* a previous occasion, was there not? though
>> I don't remember the topic that provoked it), you seem to be doing quite
>> well--either that, or frogs post from the afterlife.

>Aha! See? You wouldn't remember, would you. And gosh, did I throw back ?

	"Gosh"?  Disingenuous, Mr. Mammel.  Of course you threw back.  You
perhaps even remember the topic.

>> 	Or, put it another way, any frog that dies from the stones thrown
>> on r.a.b. is at the very least taking itself far too seriously.

>The poor things just can't help themselves.

	Are the "poor things" at this point frogs or smurfs, and why should
we care whether they can help themselves?


-- 
				Tom Maddox
		    	    tmaddox@netcom.com
	"That's a bird bone, chair, Bob.  I don't know if I should sit there."
				Tom Waits
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,news.groups
From: patk@sr.hp.com (Patrick Kearney)
Subject: Re: The Folio Society (was: Re: *Any* kind of r.a.b split, or at least a *serious* discussion)
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 16:15:29 GMT
Organization: HP Sonoma County (SRSD/MWTD/MID)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1.9 PL6]

I've only got one Folio Society book: "The Quest for Corvo" which is
splendid, and one of the best biographies I've ever read.
--

**********************************     "Kill one man, you're a murderer.
Patrick Kearney			 *  	Kill a thousand, you're a hero.
C/O Hewlett-Packard		 *	Kill everyone, you're God."
1400 Fountaingrove Parkway       *                             - Rostand.
Santa Rosa, CA 95403.		 *
				 *
INTERNET: patk@hpwmsaw.sr.HP.COM *
TELNET: 577-3460                 *
**********************************
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: simpson@cactus.org (Randall L. Simpson)
Subject: Re: Non-rabelaisian farts
Organization: Capital Area Central Texas UNIX Society, Austin, Tx
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 05:26:57 GMT

In article <1992Dec28.195834.8065@eff.org> mnemonic@eff.org (Mike Godwin) writes:
>Stunned at the reaction to what I thought was a noncontroversial use of
>term "Rabelaisian," I stumbled to a nearby dictionary and found the
>following entry:
>
>Rab-el-lai-si-an. adj. Pertaining to or characteristic of Rabelais;
>broadly or lustily humorous.
>

The OED cites James Russell Lowell (from _Among My Books_):
	"(Skelton) was truly Rabelaisian before Rabelais"
 
-- 
*-----------------------------------------------------------------------------*
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: nadel@attatash.aero.org (Miriam Nadel)
Subject: Re: Reading as an addiction (Was: 92 in rabreview)
Organization: /usr/lib/news/organization
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 16:15:24 GMT

In article <1992Dec31.050130.24366@sophia.smith.edu> orourke@sophia.smith.edu (Joseph O'Rourke) writes:
>Seeing the astounding quantity of books some posters consumed in 1992
>makes me wonder if reading can be a type of (benign?) addiction.  This 
>may be an especially apt description of those who (compulsively?) read a 
>hundred genre novels a year, mysteries or science fiction for example.
>
When you talk about genre novels specifically, I think you might want to
ask what the purpose of reading them is.  Addiction isn't simply the regular
ingestion of massive quantities of a substance - the desire for escape, or
other psychological relief, is also implied in the world.  So I would 
classify reading trashy romances when I was in grad school and just
couldn't face working as addictive behavior, while reading a mystery a day
for sheer entertainment (given a sufficient amount of free time that I'm
not neglecting other pursuits) is not addictive.

>	Among those who are voracious readers, do you feel the
>equivalent of withdrawal symptoms when (for whatever reason) you cannot 
>read for an extended period? 


I can't imagine not reading for an extended period but I suppose I would
become intensely bored.

I do find that I become uncomfortable if I don't have enough books on hand.
When the unread stack dips to fifty or so, I will invariably find myself
rushing off to a bookstore.  

Miriam Nadel
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: kate@cactus.org (Katherine M. Catmull)
Subject: Re: Is a bimbo the modern name for hussy?
Organization: Capital Area Central Texas UNIX Society, Austin, Tx
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 21:58:50 GMT

In article <1992Dec21.171142.4541@u.washington.edu> hoosiers@carson.u.washington.edu (Mary Loveless) writes:
>In article <JMC.92Dec18145313@SAIL.Stanford.EDU> jmc@cs.Stanford.EDU writes:
>>John McCarthy, Computer Science Department, Stanford, CA 94305 says:
>
>>I'm beginning to get it.  Is a bimbo what a Valley girl become when
>>she drops out of high school?
>>>It seems that the use of bimbo to refer to males is not in popular
>>use.
>


My younger sisters (mid-twenties) use the words "bimbo" and
"slut" in a completely non-gender-specific way.

This was a surprise to me when I first heard it, though a pleasant
one. Maybe it's a New-ish Thing. They're both awfully cutting-edge.


Kate

-- 
- - - - - - - -
kate@cactus.org
Be the voice of night and Florida in my ear.
From: bh419@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ted B Samsel)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Good Westerns
Date: 29 Dec 1992 15:07:07 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


Last summer I read a book by a woman on the English faculty
at Duke that was (if I have percieved it correctly) a nostalgic
deconstruction of the Western as a genre; I can't recall the
title but the author makes a case for the Western being a
reaction to the 'overly parental' doctrine of social goodness
that was (and still is) rampant amongst those who would wish
to 'improve' society. (If that were possible).....
   The "well meaning" social improvers (for the causes of 
temperance, etc.) were (in her opinion) challenged by Wister's
THE VIRGINIAN and its offspring......The easterner brought
West to cure neurasthenia and thus adopt the Rooseveltian
"vigorous life is entangled in this....will continue later.
Mainframe going down.....
-- 
Ted....
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,sci.philosophy.tech