From: kls4344@ritvax.isc.rit.edu (Person in flux)
Subject: Re: Hating Men with Full Force
Reply-To: kls4344@ritvax.isc.rit.edu
Organization: Rochester Institute of Technology
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1992 21:05:32 GMT

In article <1992Aug24.225136.8890@lmpsbbs.comm.mot.com>, 
bhv@areaplg2.corp.mot.com (Bronis Vidugiris) writes:
>)>>Melinda Shore - Cornell Theory Center - shore@tc.cornell.edu - writes:
>)                                                                        
>)>>I am not surprised that there are women who hate men.  What
>)>>surprises me is *which* women hate men.  No, it isn't the
>)>>radical feminists or the lesbian separatists who make sweeping
>)>>and general anti-male statements, it's the heterosexual housewives
>)>>and the rather ordinary, run-of-the mill women who engage in
>)>>outrageous male-bashing.  And it's the men who behave in the
>)>>most disgustingly sexist manner who are confused and angered by
>)>>it.  Ironic, huh?                                                     

>I'm not convinced that Shore is anywhere near correct.  

I disagree; I think she *IS* correct.

>There really are a
>lot of vocal and highly visible lesbian/radical/cultural (take
>your pick) separatists who hate men (or at least bash them at every
>opportunity) around.  

"Vocal" and "highly visible" should not be confused with "a lot."  There are
*some* who hate/bash men, and opportunities to hate/bash abound, given the
prevailing climate among us.  I'm not sure that hating/bashing is the way to
change things, though.

>Shore doesn't seem to acknowledge this.  How much and
>how seriously non-radical women bitch about men isn't really clear - neither
>is how much and how seriously non-radical married men bitch about women.
>Esp behind their respective backs (ie women to women about men, men to men
>about women).

Maybe these people are not as "serious" as Shore and I view them to be, but
this bitching has been going on for some time now.

>Interestingly enough, if you turn Shore's remark around, I tend to agree
>with it more.
>
>"I'm not surprised there are men who hate women.  What surprisies me is which
>men hate women.  No, it isnt the homosexuals - its the heterosexual husbands
>and divorced men who engage in outrageous woman bashing":

What I don't understand is why you would agree that this arrangement is
possible and Shore's original isn't.  For me, they are counterpoints to one
another, keeping each other alive.  My personal experience supports Shore's
remark; come and talk with the secretaries in my building, talk with the clerks
in the local chain grocery store, talk with the mothers who have both Ph.D.s
and small children.  Many put their men down.  I do see a chasm between men and
women, a situation where many women are just now gathering steam for taking
back whatever they want by first beefing about it.  I don't always agree with
their approach because I feel that bashing men to other people often serves no
purpose and I wish everyone would work to resolve conflicts and rough spots. 

>However, there are some homosexual men who do hate women, and it's not
>particular clear that it isn't simply the general prevelance of
>heterosexuality that makes heterosexual woman bashing more common than
>homosexual woman bashing.

I don't understand what you're saying here.

>Also, there is absolutely *nothing* like the organized politcial and directed
>male bashing that we see in politics today from the homosexual male front
>(or the non-homosexual male front, for that matter).  There aren't any male
>McKinnon's or Dworkins (IMO).

True, and I think this can be attributed to a general attack on "the
establishment" of white males who run government and corporations in ways
unsympathetic to others.  Time for a change, don't you think? 

Katie