HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis )
Subject: Re: Macedonia: Reality versus History.
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1993 05:24:38 GMT

dlatane@hibbs.vcu.edu (David E. Latane) writes:

>ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis ) writes:

>> Greece has never dealt with something called "autonomous Socialist Federal
>> republic of Macedonia."  It has only dealt with Yugoslavia.
>    Is that true? 

   Yes it is. At least, to the best of my knowledge.

>>>There is a relation--a geographic region.

>> Wrong.  There is no relation.  Not even geographic. 

>    Excuse me. If the lands now in former SFR macedonia are not part of the
>geographic region of "Macedonia" and if this name does not derive by tradition
>from the ancient Macedonia, well--I guess we can rewrite history.

 What tradition? How many different and irrelevant names did the area of
 Skopje have in the past?  There is no historical or geographical relation of
 Skopje with Macedonia.

 Now, if they like the name Macedonia so much, let them use it.  But we
 have to eliminate the confusion, and the points of probable disputes in
 the future.  This can be achieved in part by using a name that differenciates
 them from whatever has to do with Greece and Greeks.  Names like "Slavic
 Macedonia," "Vardar Macedonia," etc. could potentially do this.  We cannot
 have two "Macedonias."

 Of course, they have to change their outrageous flag.  They cannot proclaim
 that they have no relation with ancient Macedonians and at the same time
 use the symbol of ancient Macedonians in their flag, and use the name 
 Macedonia for their land, and use a language called Macedonian.
 The flag identifies people. The flag of a state is something special that
 people believe in, fight for it, and die for it. Their flag explicitly
 relates them with ancient Macedonians, and thus with a land that now belongs
 to Greeks.  This is a clear provocation.

>>>Greece objects to the entire
>>>existence of a people, culture, language, literature, consciousness,
>>>history (I'm speaking now of the creations of the 20th-century).
>>                                  ^^^^^^^^^

>> You err by believing such things.  However, you are quite correct by talking
>> about creations...
>   So, I err for believing in a people I met and taught, a culture I lived
> in, a language I (sort of) spoke, a literature I read, etc.  All these
> things are creations.Culture is created--it doesn't descend from Zeus.

  I wasn't clear.  I meant that you err by believing that Greeks object
  to the culture, existence etc. of these people.  My objection, as well as
  most of the Greeks, is between their assumed relation with the ancient
  Macedonians and with the land of Greece.

>... Slavo-Macedonian culture is indeed a mixed salad, with many parts of it
     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

  You said it again more correctly.  You need to differentiate, don't you?

  It is clear that you cannot use the same name for two different lands,
  two different cultures, and two different people. It's not going to work.

>>>David Latane
 
  Panos
From: draskovi@usc.edu (Zoran Draskovic)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Massacre
Date: 21 Dec 1992 23:04:45 -0800
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: aludra.usc.edu

The number of Serbian victims, mostly civilians, massacred three days ago
during the offensive of the moslim forces in the Bratunac area, now reached
109.
55 bodies have been recovered in the village of Bjelovac, and 54 other mass-
acred bodies have been pulled out from the villages of Sikiric and Voljevica.
It is feared that the number of victims is even greater, since the victims in
the villages of Jugovici and Loznicka Rijeka still have not been pulled out 
due to the clashes that continue in the zone.
(Politika, December 18, 1992.)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: scott@hpcvccl.cv.hp.com (Scott Linn)
Subject: Re: Democracy
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 23:45:30 GMT

stojanov@husc11.harvard.edu (Milan Stojanovic) writes:
: Yap. That is actually the main
: goal of this war.  To rape.  Living under the degenerated rule of 
: declared Islamic fundamentalists had nothing to do with that. 

What is "actually the main goal of this war"?

Also, it seems to me that (if correct) the Islamic fundamentalists weren't
raping, destroying, killing people like the invaders of BH/Sarajevo are.
Please tell me how to compare the two, since you brought it up.

: Self determination has meaning only when it is applied to Slovenians,
: not to those under the Byzantine-Ottoman influence.

By this analogy, Hitler was simply executing self-determination when
dispensing with Jews.

There is no comparison between Slovenia and what is happening in BH.
I don't recall a war of such magnitude, and ethnic cleansing, in Slovenia.
I saw news reports where some of the (Serbian) fighters actually stated
that they were cleaning house by getting rid of the non-Serbs, so that
the region would then be "pure".

: Jury, D.A., judge and executioner at the same time.  Another Erland-like.
: Why are Serbs at fault?  Because you read about them mostly and you 
: are not willing to think more about it, or because you are partially of
: xxx-origin?

First, I read everything I can get my hands on regarding the situation in
BH.  There have been atrocities committed on both sides, but it certainly
was the Serbs who started the whole thing and keep upping the ante, and
by far the vast majority that have been recorded by MANY, DIVERSE
organizations are by the Serbs, or perhaps more correctly the group of
people attacking BH/Sarajevo.

As far as origins, I have no known ethnic tie to any Slavic region.  I
spent two weeks in Jugoslavia for my honeymoon, just because it is such
a beautiful place.  Right after BH had declared independence, the hotel
my wife and I stayed at in Sarajevo was on the news, blown up.  Of course,
whose fault is that?  According to your views, it wasn't the Serbs...

Scott Linn
scott@hpcvccl.cv.hp.com
Xref: sparky soc.culture.yugoslavia:10366 soc.culture.croatia:312 soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna:1066
From: stojanov@husc11.harvard.edu (Milan Stojanovic)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.croatia,soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
Subject: Re: "Today's ethnic cleansing policies by the Serbian dictatorship..."
Date: 3 Jan 93 18:27:34 GMT
Organization: Harvard University Science Center


I think that this will clear up some things.

In article <9301021640@zuma.UUCP> sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic) writes:
>
>
> "Today's ethnic cleansing policies by the Serbian dictatorship against
>  Croatians and Muslims of Yugoslavia, as well as the Soviet Republic
>  of Armenia's against the Muslim population of neighboring Azerbaijan,
>  are really no different in their aspirations than the genocide 
>  perpetrated by the Armenian Government 78 years ago against the
>  Turkish and Kurdish Muslims and Sephardic Jews living in these
>  lands."         (Cebbar Leygara - Kurdish Leader - October 13, 1992)
>
>
>Serdar Argic
>
>                     'This war quickly developed into one of extermination. 
>                      We closed the roads and mountain passes that might 
>                      serve as ways of escape for the Tartars [Turks] and 
>                      then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
>                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)
>






Milan N.Stojanovic
From: pshane@andromeda.rutgers.edu (Ana M. Shane)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: Zelenaska djubrad je dobila sta zasluzuje.
Date: 21 Dec 92 08:57:14 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

pavlovic-milan@yale.edu (Milan Pavlovic) writes:


>  Ogromno mi je zadovoljstvo da prenesem jedan clanak o tome kako su UJDI-jevci
>iz Crne Gore, tj. zelenaska DJUBRAD, prosli nedavno u Bijelom Polju.  Zao mi
>je samo sto nisam bio tamo sa bracom i sestrama Srbima i Srpkinjama iz Crne
>Gore, koji su na tako prikladan nacin docekali Ustasko-UJDI bitange.

[the rest deleted]

Milan, this really puts you in the league of the worst fascists!
Shame on you! Is this the kind of democracy and civilised behavior
you propagate?

>Pozdrav,
>Milan Pavlovic
>===============================================================================
>		M A C E D O N I A  =  H E L L A S
>===============================================================================

  With hopes for peace - and tolerance in democracy!

               ___      ___
       ___   _/   \    /  //                                  
          \_/  @   \  /  //    _/////                         
          /|-\_     \/  //   _/   _/                          
           |   \     \__//__/   _/                            
        ()/     \           __ /                              
        / ()     \_    \____  |////<                          
      ()           \_       \_______\                         
                     \______/                                 


Ana M. Shane                              voice: (215)-843-2909
334 Winona St.
Philadelphia, PA 19144      e-mail: pshane@andromeda.rutgers.edu
From: wickerhauser-victor@math.yale.edu (Victor Wickerhauser)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Orthodox Christmas War
Date: 30 Dec 1992 18:31:05 -0500
Organization: Yale University Mathematics Dept., New Haven, CT 06520-2155
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: golem.math.yale.edu


I am rather afraid that there will soon be a serious escalation of the
fighting in Bosnia-Hercegovina, possibly spreading to Kosovo and even
Serbia, given the extremely belligerent recent statements by Dobrica
Chosich, Zhivota Panich, and Radovan Karadzhich, and the text of the
US letter of last week.

Victor

-- 
Prof. M. Victor Wickerhauser                      <victor@kirk.wustl.edu>
Department of Mathematics, Washington University, St. Louis, MO 63130 USA
Telephone:  USA(314)935-6771, USA(314)727-0749;     FAX: USA(314)727-4963
Sto se ljuckim trudom uzdignulo, Ljuckim znojem jopet se ponavlja. --Medo Pucic
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 13:57:00 CET
From: support@zamir-bg.comlink.de
Reply-To: support@zamir-bg.comlink.de
Distribution: world
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: referendum figures
Organization: Zamir = for peace, Beograd
Content-Length: 609     
X-Gateway: UC xclhh [UZERCP V3.99]

Many greetings to all.
I have a small request to make.  Is there anyone out their who
has the figures from the Croatian and Bosnian referendums
(referendi?) on bailing out of the SFRY?  It would be useful to
me to have these figures divided up by ethnic group for both
republics. It might be a good idea to send these figures quickly,
since this country (Serbia) may soon find herself under a
telecommunications embargo, so I've heard.  Especially after
Milosevic's election victory (Woe is us! Will the people of this
region never again know peace?) Many sincere wishes of peace to
everyone!

Patrick Morgan
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.europe
From: ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis )
Subject: Re: Macedonia: Reality versus History.
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 23:17:43 GMT

dlatane@hibbs.vcu.edu (David E. Latane) writes:


>the current
>government stays in power by whipping up anti-slav feeling in the
>same way that their friends in Belgrade stay in power by whipping up
>anti-Croat, anti-"turk," anti-Albanian, and anti-human feelings. 

 Excuse me David, but where are you geting your information about "anti-slav"
 feelings in Greece?  It is ridiculous to believe such things.
 You are off reality.

 Of course, you are free to use your imagination ...

>D. Latane

 Panos Tamamidis
Xref: sparky soc.culture.yugoslavia:10282 soc.culture.croatia:262 soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna:1008
From: ls1@cec1.wustl.edu (Lambros Skartsis)
Subject: Re: Macedonian World Congress
Organization: Washington University, St. Louis MO
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 17:24:25 GMT

Dear SAS,
good job, thank you! Keep posting, by all means. I hope as many
people as possible read your postings as well as those of the other
Slavomacedonian netters.

By the way, I saved the particular article. I'll print it and show
it to whoever asks me "what is this about the Macedonian problem?",
or whoever doesn't understand what I mean when I say "we can't sleep
in peace because we have Fourth World neighbors". 

Rude, I know, but can't help it...

L. Skartsis
From: pshane@andromeda.rutgers.edu (Ana M. Shane)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Mir, Peace, Vrede, Iri'ni, Sulh, Salam, Shalom...
Date: 31 Dec 92 16:58:19 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.


			One great wish for the

			   NEW 1993 YEAR

Peace, Mir, Paix, Paz, Pace, Frieden, Vrede, Fred, Pokoj, Beke, Ruaha,
Sulh, Paco, Iri'ni, Salam, Shalom, Heiwa, Amani....

  			     from Ana
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.europe
From: gd8f@kelvin.seas.Virginia.EDU (Gregory  Dandulakis)
Subject: Re: Macedonia: Reality versus History.
Organization: University of Virginia
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 06:24:18 GMT

In article <1992Dec29.183019.1805@hibbs.vcu.edu> dlatane@hibbs.vcu.edu (David E. Latane) writes:
>
>But Yannis, what is Greece afraid of? Is Greece afraid of admitting
>that while there are practically no ethnic Greeks on the "Yugoslav"
>side of the border, there are ethnic slavs on the Greek side? Is
>Greece afraid of admitting that it's treatment of minorities within
>its border is ad variance with recognized standards for recognition
>and treatment of minorities? It is absurd to believe that Greece is
>afraid that the former S.F.R. of Macedonia is going to be able to
>press territorial claims either by diplomatic or other means with any
>chance of success. . . . perhaps it's only that Greece is afraid to
>admit that it's the basket case of the EC and that the current
>government stays in power by whipping up anti-slav feeling in the
>same way that their friends in Belgrade stay in power by whipping up
>anti-Croat, anti-"turk," anti-Albanian, and anti-human feelings. 
>
>D. Latane


By trying to deny the obvious existence of mentality for misappropriation
of Macedonian history, land and heritage by the Skopjians, by introducing
an other Skopjian fiction (slavic ethnic minority in today's Greece),
you cann't help your case; you need proofs.
The slavic speakers in Greece are greeks, the same way which are the Christian
Turkish, Albanian, Vlachs speakers. Do you have any facts that these people are
not greeks? (and we are not talking for the "soccer team" of the 800 
ex-nazi collaborators). Whoever didn't feel greek had plenty of opportu-
nities during the 1920's exchange of populations and 1946-49 civil war
to choose his allegiance. (Tell me something: In your town, do you consider
all the immigrants as non-americans, and do you spend public (tax) money
to provide education in every single mother tongue?)


Gr

PS: And I've heard that Virginia is the basket case of the US since vast
    money are transferred in the form of military installations, trying to
    recover the devastating consequences from the federate troops when they
    conquerred and enslaved the independent states on the South. Is it true?
    (Or may be is the sounds from the ghosts of the extinct Seminole Indians?)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: wshaib@bnr.ca (Wadih Shaib)
Subject: Where Do Croats  Stand
Reply-To: wshaib@bnr.ca (Wadih Shaib)
Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd.
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 20:36:13 GMT


I would appreciate it if someone can shed some light on the following
issue which I find confusing:
We hear in the media that Croats are fighting alongside the moslems
in Sarajevo against the Serbs. But then reports say that Croats AND
Serbs are attacking moslem villages in other parts of B-H. Who are 
the Croats actually siding with ? Do the Croats in Croatia take
a different stand than the Croats in Sarajevo? What's the connection?

Thanks

============================================================================
Wadih J. Shaib                     |   "BNR And I Don't Necessarily 
Bell-Northern Research             |    Share The Same Opinions..."
Dept. 7L22, Mail Stop 291          | 
PO Box 3511, STN C, Ottawa, ON, Canada K1Y 4H7
ESN 393-3505, Tel. +1 613-763-3505 |
============================================================================
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: abrodnik@watdragon.uwaterloo.ca
Subject: Greetings and wishes for peace
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 04:24:53 GMT

In article <1h85o3INNnip@MINERVA.CIS.YALE.EDU> pavlovic-milan@yale.edu (Milan Pavlovic) writes:
>In article <BzoDH9.C2I@watdragon.uwaterloo.ca> abrodnik@watdragon.uwaterloo.ca (Andrej Brodnik (Andy)) writes:
>>Merry Christmas, to everybody, and to you Mr.Pavlovic. Note, that
>>Christmas is meant to be a holiday of peace. Make your peace with
>>Christ, Mr.Pavlovic, if you can't with people. Confess (to him) your
>>sins including spreading the lies and hatred. I forgive you for this.
>
>  I never asked for your forgiveness, Mr. Brodnik!

Hm, I don't think that it should be necessary to ask for forgivness in
order to get it...

>   Now, are you telling me
>something about hatred?  Let me quote one of your sentences from back in
>February of this year, which I still vividly remember because of the
>incredible amount of animosity that it contained:
>
>"Dr. Efstratiadis, I'd be ashamed to be your son."
>
>  Do you remember that one, Mr. Brodnik?  Well, I remember it very well.  I
>couldn't believe that any human being could write something like that to
>another human being.  And you're trying to tell ME something about hatred?

Yes, I do (though there is missing a context here). Furthermore, I see
no (nor it was meant to be expressed) any hate with this statement.
But if you read it that way, perhaps your emotions are really overheated.

>  And what about your ultimate lie, repeated every month in the "South Slavic
>Mailing Lists", that the magazine "Vreme" has been published since the "fall of
>1989", when you know very well that the first issue came out on Oct. 29, 1990,
>as I pointed out to you over 5 times already?

No need to feel guilty here as well. The text of any of mailng lists
as it appears there, is written by editor/moderator of the mailing
list. His/her address is also listed there and you have all possible
means to complain. If other people could follow this way (and the
change was made without overheated emotions), you could as well.
Especially because I pointed out this to you (publically) as well.

>  Let me return your greetings in grace, and wish you and everyone else on
>these groups  a very Merry Christmas.  May 1993 bring an end to the warfare
>in Balkans, and happiness to all the nations of the former Yugoslavia.

My sincere hopes and wishes that it'd really be so !!

Andrej
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.europe
From: ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis )
Subject: Re: Macedonia: Reality versus History.
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1993 03:31:57 GMT

dlatane@hibbs.vcu.edu (David E. Latane) writes:

>ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis ) writes:

>> The Greek goverment has proposed in the past the names "Slavic Macedonia" and
>> "Vardar Macedonia," which were rejected by Skopje.

>Ok, look right into your computer monitor and type with a straight face that
>the government of Greece will cheerfully recognize and cooperate with a
>country on its borders with the word Macedonia in its name, with a people
>who call themselves Macedonians with a language called Macedonian.

 So, now Greece has to cheerfully recognize this state? I thought that
 just recognition was enough.  

>If Greece put up with the autonomous
>Socialist Federal republic of Macedonia from 1945 to 1991, what was the
>difference? Perhaps Greece was just waiting for the withdrawal of the JNA . .

 Greece has never dealt with something called "autonomous Socialist Federal
 republic of Macedonia."  It has only dealt with Yugoslavia.

>> Instead, Skopje has
>> chosen to escalate the confrontation with Greece by using the symbol of
>> ancient Macedonians, found in Greece in several places, in their flag.
>> Their flag is simply outrageous.  You cannot proclaim no relation with
>> ancient Macedonians. . . .. 

>There is a relation--a geographic region.

 Wrong.  There is no relation.  Not even geographic. 

>> And excuse me, I cannot understand why a name like "Slavic Macedonia" or
>> "Vardar Macedonia" is impossible.  Does the name Yugo-SLAVIA ring you a bell?

>Yes. A funeral bell. Does the absence of significant numbers of Serb-slavs, Croat-slavs, Bosnian-slavs, and Slovenian-slavs in the former SFR of Macedonia perhaps suggest a difference to you!

 Why should it make any difference to me if it doesn't make any difference to
 them?  You suggest that "Slavic Macedonia" wouldn't be possible because the
 Albanians would object.  But the Albanians already object, not only to the
 name and to the flag, but also to the recognition of this republic.

 And if the name "Slavic Macedonia" is out of the question, why other names
 like "Vardar Macedonia" are out of the question?

>The Macedonian emblem I saw in Skopje was rampant lions in gold on red--
>Greece, if I remembered, objected to that too.

 I do not recall such thing.

>Greece objects to the entire
>existence of a people, culture, language, literature, consciousness,
>history (I'm speaking now of the creations of the 20th-century).
                                  ^^^^^^^^^

 You err by believing such things.  However, you are quite correct by talking
 about creations...

>David Latane

 Panos Tamamidis
From: wickerhauser-victor@math.yale.edu (Victor Wickerhauser)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Job openings in Serbia/Montenegro
Date: 30 Dec 1992 12:45:48 -0500
Organization: Yale University Mathematics Dept., New Haven, CT 06520-2155
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: golem.math.yale.edu


According to RFE/RL Daily Report for Dec ~30, 1992:

   "...Western news agencies report that 100-150,000 educated
   professionals left Serbia-Montenegro in 1992, and that there are
   currently 5,200 job openings for academics, engineers, and
   doctors. (Patrick Moore, RFE/RL, Inc.)"

This should be reassuring for those students from Rump Yugo who have
been spending a lot of time trying to explain their country's
politics. Even if you flunk out you can very likely find work back in
the old country.

Victor
-- 
Prof. M. Victor Wickerhauser                      <victor@kirk.wustl.edu>
Department of Mathematics, Washington University, St. Louis, MO 63130 USA
Telephone:  USA(314)935-6771, USA(314)727-0749;     FAX: USA(314)727-4963
Sto se ljuckim trudom uzdignulo, Ljuckim znojem jopet se ponavlja. --Medo Pucic
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia