From: ecrjbruce@economics.adelaide.edu.au
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.dnd
Subject: Re: Elves and Munckinism.
Date: 29 Aug 92 11:40:15 GMT
Organization: Economics, University of Adelaide

In article <3981@sol.deakin.OZ.AU>, quin@deakin.OZ.AU (Daniel Quinlivan) writes:
> In this discussion on elves one limiting thing about elves has been forgotten.
> When an elf dies they generally stay dead.   From memory there are about
> three ways to raise an elf.   A wish or like power.   A rod of resurrection
> and spending a heap of charges.  Divine intervention.
> All three of these things are very hard or _should_ be very hard to get done.
> Compare this to the realative ease that the dead human gets raised.  All
> the party has to find is a cleric that can throw a fifth level spell.
> Oh, that is find one bribeable as generally they find one of the wrong
> religon to the deceased and then the deceased usually undergoes conversion
> and/or loss of a decent percentage of magical items.


Oh sure, like 13th level Clerics of your alignment just grow on trees...

Sorry lets just bribe a cleric for that 5th level spell granted directly by his
deity, who won't really care!!  I think not!  Lets face it raising ressurection
whatever is a bit of a cadge really, particularly if a God intervenes directly. 
If you play an elf who dies then in most campaigns you're as dead as a human
who dies, theres very little likliehood of you coming back unless  your DM goes
soft and lets you back in.  This tends to happen in DnD simply because new
characters are very weak compared to more developed ones, whereas in ability
systes such as Runequest etc. then you can come back fresh and ghave a
semidecent character.  The act of diing is no big deal in DnD, if the DM wants
you back, bck you come.  If not then you don't.  Same for elves, humans
whatever, no cleric is going to waste his high level spells on someone he
doesn't know.  What would his god think?

> 
> But I admit, under first edition an elf fighter/mage that _could_ double
> specialize with long sword and wear plate armor wasn't conductive to a
> monsters lifespan.  Second edition has toned this nicly with no spell
> casting in anything but elven chain(I could be wrong on this).


where is this written?  I would be interested to see because I have never heard
of anyone allowing spellcasting in armour of any soirt (except those bloody
elven Ftr/mages oyu mntion)

> 
> The elf is still a powerful character but under second edition not an 
> "Instant Min/Max Powerhouse".
> 

Um sorry but that ability to see in the dark, the spell resistance, the weapon
bonuses and all the rest of that crap make the elves too powerful.  Exactly
what are their drawbacks that apply in usual game situations?  Given that sleep
and charm spells fly about at the drop of a hat those 90% resistances are damn
useful, how often have you had to carry a lantern just so the humans can see? 
Too often, that +1 that cuts in every tiome with your sword or bow?  Damn
useful.  And what are you offering as a penalty to compensate for this?  Well
you can't be raised you need a wish.  Gee that happens a lot!  Given the way
that DnD works I have actually seen more wishes than ressurects, mages being
somwhat less alignment dominated than clerics.  Thus it's usually easier to
find a willing mage than a willing cleric, so  that once in a lifetime
experience (pun intended) of getting raised/ressurected/wished to life is
hardly a major difference between the races.  Have you EVERT met a character
who was prevented from going up a level because of his race?  I would bet most
DMs will make exceptions simply because you have spent so long in developing
your character.  Elves are definitely the race for min maxers to play,they give
them a lot of bonuses top capitalise on.


Reading back over this some of it reads a little like a flame, which it is not
meant to be, it's just my observations and HATRED of bloody elves!

regs

Rob


P.S. we have just started getting advertising for Godzilla vs Charles Barkley,
aybe all thos unfortunate Dm's who lost their tarrasques can have Barkley slam
dunk those munchkins for 500d2 damage or something.