HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: davem@uvmark.uucp (Dave Meeks)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.pro
Subject: Re: How can we compare PG's?
Date: 29 Aug 92 19:31:10 GMT
Organization: Vmark Software, Inc.

In article <92241.110155IOR@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> IOR@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (Thomas Hyer) writes:
>
>  A subject which has been bugging me is that
>assists, clearly the best existing measure of
>the (offensive) quality of a point guard, are
>about the most context-dependent statistic
>imaginable.  The obvious example is Utah;
>Karl Malone has the perfect combination of
>(i) total inability to create anything on
>his own and (ii) superb ability to finish
>the play given a good `feed', so that he
>clearly boosts Stockton's assist total. (Note:
>Malone flamewars start your own damn thread.)
>The question is, how much?
>
>That is, is there any way that we can extract
>from box scores the propensity of Stockton to
>create assists, as opposed to Malone's propensity
>to receive assists?  If we could find out what
>portion of Stockton's assists went to other players,
>who are (at best) league-average, we could compare
>them with the corresponding numbers for other PG's;
>in real life, we don't have this data.  Is there any
>data out there which would make a decent substitute?

Not really.  COuple of things to remember, different point guards handle
the ball a different amount of time.  THough Stockton is incredible at getting
the ball to the right person, remember that he handles the ball a lot more
than other teams have their PG handle the ball.  Usually, the ball stays 
in Stockton's hands until he passes or shoots.  Also, as for Malone's 
ability, if what you are looking for is so important (his ability to score),
wouldn't Paxson have 1000+ a year?? Or Porter, or a host of others.  The thing
that amazes me about Stockton/Malone is that everyone knows that Stockton
is going to pass, and that odds are, he will pass to Malone.  Yet they still
somehow manage to posts the numbers they do.  Utah has basically 1 real 
scoring threat and a few others that can score, but aren't in the "deadly" 
category.  Also remember that Malone is amongst the leaders in FT attempts,
which means there are alot of those passes going into him that he is getting
fouled instead of scoring.  Many PG best passes result in a foul instead of
a basket.  
-- 
David T. Meeks                    ||" We are jigsaw pieces, aligned on the 
VMark Software, Inc.              ||  perimeter edge, 
uvmark!davem@merk.com             ||  interlocked through a missing piece"
davem%uvmark@merk.com             ||" ...This world is totally Fugazi"
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.pro
From: gattuso@ssd.comm.mot.com (Christopher Gattuso)
Subject: Michael Irvin's Contract????
Organization: Motorola
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 14:11:05 GMT

Any news on how far apart the Cowboys and Michael Irvin are????

Is it possible he might play this week or next????

Email me answers....

Thanks in advance!!!

Chris....
From: jdt29225@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Jazzy J )
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.pro
Subject: Re: Shoe teams
Date: 27 Aug 92 15:53:35 GMT
Article-I.D.: news.BtnG5D.28x
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana

byau@jarthur.claremont.edu (Ben Yau) writes:


>Kevin Johnson - Converse
>Dominque Wilkins - Reebok

>exactly who are all the NIKE NBA players?
>Pippen, Jordan, Barkely, Mullin, Robinson, Stockton (?)
>Gary Payton :)
>and who were all those guys that were in that one commercial about the 
>AIR JORDAN SCHOOL where they were advertising like "learn how to fly, learn
>to get some hang time" and the last line was Mullin saying
>"I wanna learn how to get some hang time."

	That was an awesome commercial.  It cracked me up every time I
	saw it.  Pity they don't show it more often anymore.

	Anyways, some of the other players in that commercial included
	Brian Shaw, John Salley, and Dennis Scott.  At least that's all that
	I can remember.

	Also, remember those commercials with Charles Oakley (doing the
	Oak Tree), Sherman Douglas (doing the Sherman Shuffle) and others?
	Those were rather classic.

>i think hardaway was in that one, so does htat make him part of the NIKE
>team?

	Yep.  Hardaway would be on the NIKE team.  Catch him on those
	"I got skills" and trash-talking commercials w/ Spike Lee?

	Jazzy J


-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|  "I am human and I need to be loved,            | Jazzy J                   |
|   just like everybody else does..." - The Smiths| jdt29225@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu | 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: davem@uvmark.uucp (Dave Meeks)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.pro
Subject: Re: thanks ed and dave
Date: 25 Aug 92 21:47:26 GMT
Article-I.D.: uvmark.1992Aug25.214726.43828
Distribution: usa
Organization: Vmark Software, Inc.

In article <1992Aug25.181326.11211@cbnewsk.cb.att.com> lor@cbnewsk.cb.att.com (edward.lor) writes:
<...numerous other lines of junk he hopes I will get back into things with...?

>Now, go ahead, I dare you not reply.


There, I didn't reply... oopps...
-- 
David T. Meeks                    ||" We are jigsaw pieces, aligned on the 
VMark Software, Inc.              ||  perimeter edge, 
uvmark!davem@merk.com             ||  interlocked through a missing piece"
davem%uvmark@merk.com             ||" ...This world is totally Fugazi"
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.pro
From: mack@isl.Stanford.EDU (mack)
Subject: Re: Selling the Lakers short
Organization: Stanford University
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 92 23:46:58 GMT

koehnema@enuxha.eas.asu.edu (Harry Koehnemann) writes:
>kprashan@sdcc3.ucsd.edu (hyderabadi) writes:
>>
>>The Lakers won 40 odd games (around 44, if I remember
>>correctly) last year. They played the last 2 months of the season
>>with this patchwork lineup playing a lot of minutes: 
>>Campbell, Green, Scott, Teagle, and Threatt.  
>
>Yea, but they won a good portion of those games *before* the injurys.
>When Magic went down, the Lakers went on a rampage.  They were up with
>the Pacific leaders early on.  I'd imagine they were ~.400 after the
>allstar break.

The Lakers went 15-21 (0.417) after the All-* break.

>Harry Koehnemann
>koehnema@enuxha.eas.asu.edu

    --mack

Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.pro
From: creasman@cheshire.oxy.edu (Scott Michael Creasman)
Subject: Re: Selling the Lakers short (was Re: Who's gonna win it all )
Organization: Occidental College, Los Angeles, CA 90041 USA.
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 23:30:28 GMT

In article <1992Aug31.150102.16673@megatek.com> megatek!rstewart@uunet.uu.net writes:
>In article <1992Aug30.053147.19790@cheshire.oxy.edu> creasman@cheshire.oxy.edu (Scott Michael Creasman) writes:
>>In article <1992Aug28.150847.2418@megatek.com> megatek!rstewart@uunet.uu.net writes:
>>>In article <1992Aug27.212833.13214@unislc.uucp> gsd@unislc.uucp (Greg Dodd) writes:

       [A bunch of folks saying a lot of crud about whether the Lakers
        will be NBA champs or playoff contenders next season (myself
        included)]
>
>Well that is a nice emotional rambling you let loose with. Why do you give some
>reason, rather than just shouting louder than anyone else. At the begining
>of last season a lot of people thought the Lakers would have a great season.
>Four of five starters ended up out for about 1/2 season on average. They
>are getting old, but if they stay injury free, I think it is basically
>the same team that started the season  last year.
>-Rich

Well, here's my feelings concerning the Lakers.  Worthy is getting old, as
are Perkins and Scott.  Magic may play this year, but he won't be the player
he was five or even two years ago.  Vlade remains inconsistant and for the
greatest extent unproven.  The Lakers did make some good acquisitions in the
off season, including their steal in the draft, Anthony Peeler.  But these
will not a top division team make.

Let's be honest.... Seattle and Phoenix have improved, Portland without 
question remains a better team.  Golden State is coming off a fine 
season as well.  That places four teams in the Pacific which I believe
are considerably better than an aging Lakers team.  San Antonio and 
Utah are givens in next years playoffs.  That leaves two remaining playoff
spots.  The competition will be tough at the bottom.

Frankly, my emotional rambling, was the result of frustration.  You see,
as a Suns fan, I have all to often seen my team falter once it has
reached the playoffs.  And in several of those years they have faltered
against the Lakers.  I like seeing LA sputter, and if sending out bad
vibes will help I'll do that.  But in all honesty, I don't expect and
would be rather surprised if they were better than an eighth seed.

Creas
Organization: Central Michigan University
Date: Wednesday, 26 Aug 1992 09:30:22 EDT
From: ME <34EX5PH@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU>
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.pro
Subject: Re: Jordan >= Magic && Bird
 <1992Aug25.205235.13961@ennews.eas.asu.edu> <5598@igor.Rational.COM>
 <1992Aug26.124147.2437@brtph560.bnr.ca>

Its weird you didn't mention one one the two most shown clips of Michael
Jordan. 1)  when he hits the shot against Cleveland NO time remaining.
2) the super scoop shoot agianst the Lakers in the NBA Finals.

matu
From: zell@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Joseph Zell)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.pro
Subject: Re: Jordan >= Magic && Bird
Date: 28 Aug 92 16:48:34 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana

lange@lanai.cs.ucla.edu (Trent Lange) writes:

>In article <1992Aug27.121712.21182@brtph560.bnr.ca> markham@brtph600.bnr.ca (Andrew Markham P205) writes:
>>In article <1992Aug26.213743.16703@uvmark.uucp> davem@uvmark.uucp (Dave Meeks) writes:
>>>You want Jordan's weaknesses???  3pt shooting for one.
>>
>>Okay, you leave him open at the 3pt arc a couple of times and see how long 
>>that lasts...

>Andy has a point here.  Leave Jordan open for the 3, and you can count it.

>Which means that Jordan must be an incredibly stupid, ballhog of a player --
>a pure 3 point shooter the likes of which the game has never seen before,
>and yet he still manages to force up enough dumb, closely-guarded 3 attempts
>to average a pitiful 28 % over his career...

Nah. What really happened was that during the season he was trying to lull
the Trailblazers into  a false sense of security so that he could tear them
up in Game 1.  Michael did have one good year(in which he shot 3's all summer)
which is the the year he qualified for for the three point contest.  He has
proved that he CAN shoot the three, if he practices, but right now he'd
rather play golf.  Yes, it is a weakness, but he has proven that he can over-
come it if he practices it.
Joe

>What a revelation!  Thanks for giving us the true picture of Jordan, Andy...

>- Trent Lange

>-- 
>*************************************************************************
>*   UCLA:  More National Championships than you can shake a stick at    *
>*          in a whole bunch of sports -- and academics, too!            *
>*************************************************************************
-- 
zell@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu  *   Dammit, Jim, I'm a doctor, not a physician!
                       *           -Doctor McCoy, STVIII:The Retirement Home
CUBS WIN! CUBS WIN!    *
From: gary@ccs.northeastern.edu (Gary Duhaney)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.pro
Subject: Re: Charlotte/Orlando
Date: 3 Sep 92 20:17:19 GMT
Organization: Comp. Sci. @ NU

In article <168558135.MCMASTER@LSTC2VM.stortek.com> MCMASTER@LSTC2VM.stortek.com (Jim McMaster) writes:
>Orlando Magic center Stanley Roberts exercised a contractual right that
>killed a trade that would have sent Roberts and New York guard Mark
>Jackson to the Los Angeles Clippers, Charles Smith, Bo Kimble ans Doc
>Rivers from the Clippers to the Knicks and three 1993 first-round draft
>picks -- two owned by the Clipers plus New York's -- to the Magic.

I keep seeing this trade mentioned, but can't figure out what the Magic
get out of it.  3 first rounders -- now really.

I can see what the Knicks get -- Smith and Rivers, loosing only Jackson
and a low pick (see below).  Gain 2 legit players while loosing an on
again off again head case.  Guaranteed to be 7th game against Bulls on
talent alone and a title in one more year.

The Clips get -- Stan and Mark Jackson.   A legit center (assuming
weight and fouls are in check) and a very good guard (assuming he keep
his head straight).  Both problems are containable, and would make
one of the best teams in the league.

What does Orlando get.

We know that the Knicks first rounder will suck, by the mere fact that
they are a strong, tough young team in a weak conference with no one
else to mount much of a challenge.  Should be a 50 win season, especially
considering how well they have improved.  Add those two players to the
list and they might reach 60 wins.  Whichever way, that pick will be
20 something.

The Clippers have two -- does anyone know whose the other was ???????

Unless Stanley and Mark return to their former selves and Manning decides
he wants out now, and Brown quits again, the Clippers draft pick should
be low.  Late teens to early twenties pick.

So that make two low picks, I can't comment on the third since I don't
know who the former owner was.

Does Orlando expect the the draft will be as deep as this years.  Do
they think that they have the right player, lacking only maturity.
Do they think that Stan will be on a yo-yo diet and keep going up or
do they just want to get rid of him now while they figure he has his
highest trade value and this was the only way they could do the salary
thing (I can't believe that they didn't get better offers than this).

Is Shaq's salary that heavy a burden.

Or is management filled with idiots and they have been taking the most
hyped player available as Minnesota (actually with the Wolves its
over-hyped) does.

P.S Does this mean Manning wants to stay??
--
"Gotta get to the game."     "YOU'LL NEEEED THESE"   "Arrgghhhhhhh"
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.pro
From: tamada@cheshire.oxy.edu (Michael K. Tamada)
Subject: Re: How can we compare PG's?
Organization: Occidental College, Los Angeles, CA 90041 USA.
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 21:45:23 GMT

In article <92241.110155IOR@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> IOR@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (Thomas Hyer) writes:

>  A subject which has been bugging me is that
>assists, clearly the best existing measure of
>the (offensive) quality of a point guard, are
>about the most context-dependent statistic
>imaginable.  The obvious example is Utah;
   [...]
>That is, is there any way that we can extract
>from box scores the propensity of Stockton to
>create assists, as opposed to Malone's propensity
>to receive assists?  If we could find out what
>portion of Stockton's assists went to other players,
>who are (at best) league-average, we could compare
>them with the corresponding numbers for other PG's;
>in real life, we don't have this data.  Is there any
>data out there which would make a decent substitute?

     Unfortunately I can't think of any solution.  The data in fact
are inherently available, because NBA play-by-play scoresheets have
notations something like this:

7:05  Bird 3-pointer lefthanded from 29 feet (assist DJohnson)

so theoretically it is possible to keep track of who gave an assist
to who on which basket.  But the NBA doesn't as far as I know permanently
record this assist info.
     (This still ignores the problem of great passes followed by
choking on the shot, so the great passer never gets an assist...also
of course shooter getting fouled, so no assist, etc.)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
  |__	       o
  | W			   Mike Tamada
		  |\	   Institutional Research Office
		   \O	   Occidental College
		    |      tamada@oxy.edu
		   /|
		  | |
From: dxj@cci632.cci.com (Dennis Joyce)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.pro
Subject: Re: Predictions
Date: 26 Aug 92 15:10:55 GMT
Organization: [Computer Consoles, Inc., Rochester, NY

In article <1992Aug25.192309.7676@cc.umontreal.ca> iacurtop@ERE.UMontreal.CA (Iacurto Paul) writes:
>
>Here are my predictions
> for the 92-93 NBA season
>
>ATLANTIC                  
>New York              Best coach in NBA
>Miami                 Team on the rise
>New Jersey            Well balanced team
>Philadelphia          Balanced team, but need a good center
>Boston                Lewis is the whole team
>Washington            Will not win with Adams shooting 39%!  
>Orlando               Shaq will need more support

Do you really think that the Celtics will fall from first to fifth? I agree
that the Knicks are the strongest team in the Atlantic. The Celtics are 
returning the same lineup minus Bird. Bird missed alot of games last year
and really didn't lead the team like in the mid 80's. They will be returning a 
pretty good lineup McHale, Parish, Lewis, Brown, Fox and Pickney. I can't see 
them finishing worse than 3rd in the weak East...

Miami second? no not yet...

Nets 3rd? Too many head cases (DC, Morris) to make a serious run. Lots of
Talent. It will be interesting to see if Daly can keep the children in line...

Philadelphia is going to have another terrible team...Very good guard rotation
but who plays in the paint? me? couldn't do much worse....

Washington not signing Gugs hurt them... The team is going to be in trouble...

Orlando has possibly the greatest Center to come out of College since Walton...
and that is about it....It will take Shaq about a year to get used to playing
pro anyways....

MY PREDICTIONS:

ATLANTIC:

New York Knicks		- A Lock unless they chock again
Boston Celtics		- Lewis and Company (Pickney & Fox play more)
New Jersy Nets		- So much talent but so few brains
Miami Heat		- Wildcard IMO could do anything (real puzzle)
Philadelphia 76ers	- Let the guards dribble around and shoot (Don't Miss)
Orlando Magic		- If I hear the B52's anymore I will lose it
Washington Bullets	- Pray that King comes back healthy



						Dennis Joyce
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.pro
From: nelson@clunker.b21.ingr.com (nelson jordan)
Subject: Re: Charlotte/Orlando
Organization: ^$
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 14:58:02 GMT

>
>That said, I don't believe that either one is very interested in playing twin
>towers; it certainly would certainly force one of them out of his perfered
>position (does anyone know who played the "PF" during the year they played
>twin towers at LSU?).  This , however, is a long way from "there isn't a whole
>lot of harmony between the two."
>
  Roberts played the PF during LSUs' twin towers year.


>Tom@Orlando


Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.pro
From: dxj@cci632.cci.com (Dennis Joyce)
Subject: Basketball HOF (Was: Re: Jordan >= Magic && Bird)
Organization: [Computer Consoles, Inc., Rochester, NY
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 20:44:35 GMT

>
>It's a good thing Magic never blocked any shots. He may have been worthy to
>pray at the Jordan statue they will surely put to cover up his square foot
>of wall space at the HOF. And I suppose they should get another one to cover
>up the meager space Bird will get too.
>

Just a side note:

I was in the Basketball Hall of Fame this past weekend. It was my first time 
that have been lucky enough to visit this mecca of basketball history. I was
struck by the amount of Bird (being that it is in Springfield, Mass, this 
really didn't come as THAT much of a surprise) and Magic stuff. From 
highlight films to posters to interviews to lockers to trivia questions to
books to pens, etc. Anyone who doubts the greatness of Bird and Magic should
just walk in the door of this place and you will be hit in the face by
all the history and Hoopla surrounding these players.

I was also struck by the fact that there wasn't that much Jordan stuff. I mean
he has also changed the face of basketball, yet there just isn't that much 
Jordan stuff. Bird and Magic have been in the league longer than Mike but
I was still shocked. I am not a Bulls fan (actually a Celtic fan) and was
sorta relieved that the BHoF hasn't been turned into a Nike circus (just my
opinion)...

Other Notes....

I was shocked by the lack of Dr. J. memorablia (it is the basketball hall of
fame not the NBA Hall of Fame). 

The amount of space dedicated to the Womens game was pleasently surprising.
I was very interested in seeing all the old film clips on Womens Basketball. 
Very good...

High school basketball had a whole room (I was not aware that there was a room 
for this till I got there...). There were newspaper clips from the 20's - 30's
to the present and pictures which told the story of HS Bball. There were 
uniforms and trophies. I found it to be possibly the most interesting 
to me....


AND...

You never know who you will bump into... I ran into Rick Fox of the Celtics
while strolling around... I guess he was there to give an autograph session
for Salem Sports Clothing. He was comming in a backdoor and I physicaly ran into
him. He was very polite (I don't know what I expected but I was pleasently
surprised). I asked him for a autograph and he pulled a picture (8x10 glossy)
out of his managers (or press guy's) bag and signed it on the spot. I thanked
him and he returned pleasantries Very nice indeed...

					Dennis Joyce
From: wgr@rti.rti.org
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.pro
Subject: Re: Selling the Lakers short (was Re: Who's gonna win it all )
Date: 28 Aug 92 17:34:20 GMT
Organization: Research Triangle Institute, RTP, NC

In article <1992Aug28.150847.2418@megatek.com> megatek!rstewart@uunet.uu.net writes:
>Every keeps putting the Lakers in the cellar. Even without Magic, if the
>Lakers are healthy,  they have Perkins, Worthy, Vladi, Peeler this year,
>none of which played any significant number of games last year. And if
>Threat has another good year, I  think they will  end up 1 or 2 in the west.
>Now I do agree, without alot of youth added to the team they are in deep
>trouble, soon.

Well, Perkins played 2332 minutes in 63 games and Worthy played 2108 minutes
in 54 games, making them 4th and 5th in minutes played for the Lakers last
season.  That seems like a significant number of games to me.  Vlade played
979 minutes in 36 games.

I don't expect the Lakers to fall to the cellar, but even if Magic does come
back, they have five capable teams to contend with in their division.  I
won't say which Pacific division team I don't consider capable.  Phoenix,
Seattle, and the Clippers should all be better (in absolute terms) than they
were last year.  It will surprise (and please) the hell out of me if the
Lakers finish in the top 2 in the Pacific.

Is there any news at all, long ago or recently, about whether it's even
reasonable to hope for James Worthy's knees to work for a whole season?  Does
he do serious rehab in the off season, or will that not help his condition?
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.pro
From: jachano@srv.PacBell.COM (Jay Chanowitz)
Subject: Re: Bird, Jordan, Magic...
Organization: Pacific * Bell
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1992 21:58:11 GMT

In article <1992Aug25.190046.3975@bmerh85.bnr.ca> stu1d46@bnr.ca (Reg Domaratzki) writes:
>In article <4854@news.duke.edu>, radkel@canctr.mc.duke.edu (R.CLOUGH) writes:
>
   [Stuff about stuff deleted]
>
>FLAME BAIT:
>There never has and never will be another rivarly as fierce as that between
>Magic and Bird in professional sports.
>
>Reg Domaratzki  University of Waterloo Co-op Student at BNR in Ottawa, Canada
>  "The problem with the future is that it keeps turning into the present"
>           - Hobbes

I'll bite at that bait:  Ali vs Frasier, far and away, the best rivalry I've 
ever seen.

Jay
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.pro