From: anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson)
Subject: Re: Gayspace
Organization: Madison Academic Computing Center, UW-Madison
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 02:57:07 GMT


In article <2A733D51.5586@noiro.acs.uci.edu>
cedman@714-725-3165.nts.uci.edu (Carl Edman) writes:

I've sent Carl Edman an email copy of this, because I doubt
he saw Arne's article in soc.motss, rather in one of the
other groups to which it was cross-posted.  Arne, you might
keep that in mind, especially as we've been invaded by two
threads from hell that are cross-posted like crazy lately.
In any case, I'm posting to soc.motss only, because I think
Arne's rejoinder of "Fuck you, asshole," while justified in
certain ways, doesn't respond to Edman's misunderstandings,
and for our own benefit, we should all know how to do that.

>adolphson writes

>>So, anyway, in today's LA Times is a little article that my
>>city council (the West Hollywood City Council) last week
>>approved a monument commemorating last fall's street
>>protests against California governor Pete Wilson's
>>veto of AB 101 (a gay-rights bill).

What sort of monument?

>>I took part in most of
>>the street protests, and I am *very* glad to see that the
>>city council stood up to some homophobic resistance --
>>yes, even West Hollywood has its phobes.  They, the
>>phobes, complained that the city "places too much
>>emphasis on gay and lesbian issues".

This is another variant of "you homos should stay in your
place."  It's of a piece with our "flaunting it" if we hold
hands in public or do other things that the majority
straight population does all the time.

They want us to be *at most* second-class citizens, but that
is manifestly unjust, the same as it would be to insist that
African Americans or Hispanic people or Jewish people should
be less fully enfranchised than the white, heterosexual,
Christian masses.  The society that denies us equality of
this kind is a homophobic society, and we are right to
protest it loudly wherever we encounter it.

And anyone who endorses that inequality is being homophobic,
which in my opinion merits that person another chorus of
"fuck you"s.

>>I say a big "fuck you"
>>to them.  The city places emphasis on gay and lesbian
>>issues because we are the single largest voting block in
>>the city.

I endorse the "fuck you" but not the reason.  The reason is
*not* that the council should emphasize LG issues; rather,
it should argue that this "emphasis" is a figment of
homophobic consciousness.  The council should do its part to
promote a just society, not because one segment of the
society has the largest voting block, but because it's the
right thing to do.

If you're going to feel comfortable only when you can outvote
the bigots, you're in real big trouble.  A just society goes
out of its way to respect and value minority interests and to
do so on principle.

>>And if the phobes don't like it, they're welcome
>>to move to a city 35% of whose residents are not gay.  I'm
>>sure they'd be able to find such cities. 

Carl is right to call this a bigoted remark.  It's analogous
to "If those folks are annoyed by the Stars and Bars, let
'em get up north."

>Just out of curiosity, you might be able to answer my
>question.

An obviously snide remark, not calculated to advance
anyone's understanding.

>Consider a hypothetical city 35% of the population of which
>oppose abortion want to see it banned.  Would you consider
>it proper and appropriate use of the taxpayers funds of that
>city if it decided to build a monument to Operation Rescue
>protests at a local abortion clinic?

The abortion issue and issues of homophobia are not the same
thing.  I don't know anything more than what Arne said about
the monument in question, but I too regard it as more than a
little odd for public funds to be used.  Maybe I wouldn't if
I knew more about it.

>Also, would you consider it appropriate and tolerant if any
>citizen of that city told anybody else who criticized that
>monument "Fuck you!" and "Move somewhere else if you don't
>like it here!"?

I see nothing wrong with the "fuck you," not the least.  We
have every right to damn angry at the bigots who oppress us.
There's a difference, of course, between criticizing and
being bigoted.  Criticism doesn't hurt anyone; in most
cases, it's even good for people.  But bigotry kills or
otherwise maims lesbian and gay people, and that cannot be
condoned in a fair and just society.  Neither can the "move
out if you don't like it" argument.

-- 
Jess Anderson <> Madison Academic Computing Center <> University of Wisconsin
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