From: srin@cs.utexas.edu (Srinivas Nedunuri)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american,alt.culture.us.asian-indian
Subject: Re: Back to 'Birds of a Feather' (was Re: White Guys Superior?)
Date: 17 Aug 1992 23:55:37 -0500
Organization: U Texas Dept of Computer Sciences, Austin TX
NNTP-Posting-Host: nada.cs.utexas.edu

[Sorry about the n levels of nesting here, I was attempting to reply to 
several posts and Manish's had a pretty good summary]

>>>, empty = Srinivas Nedunuri
>> = Amirthi, in other words, she of the T'ang Dynasty poem
> = Manish Vij
_____________________________________________________________________________

>>>The fact is its not at all easy to forge real friendships between 
>>>culturally different groups. 
>>
>>I don't think anybody ever claimed it was easy - I do believe it's
>>worth the effort.
To you, yes, but individuals have to make that decision. If someone has 
genuinely made an attempt at contact / friendship with different cultures and
found that it just didn't work for them, then so be it. Remember it takes two 
to tango. Friendship should not be a continual "effort" on the part of one 
person. If he or she finds a particular group unresponsive (mentioning no 
names :-) then I say to hell with it. Maybe some groups really do have an 
attitude problem. I'd rather wait for a change of attitude. If they never even 
tried, then I think they are the losers but, again, who's to criticize them?
Don't get me wrong, I am not at all for poeple sitting inside their cultural
coccoons. Along that road lies prejudice and racism. But real friendship is 
a difficult thing to achieve and requires that both parties want it.

>>>The problem is that it isn't immediately clear to me why two 
>>>groups of people (take any two arbitary groups) should neccessarily associate
>>>with one another.
>
>The NRA and the Sierra Club shouldn't necessarily associate with each other
>without pretext.  Nor should followers of Jerry Falwell and the Hare
>Krishnas, or LaRouchites and Buchananites.  But individuals within each
>group may do so freely.  Bill Clinton's campaign manager is the lover
>of George Bush's strategist.  Sure, they fight about it, but being different
>does not exclude being together.  In some cultures and modes of thinking,
>difference is to be preferred over similarity; cosmopolitans and college
>students tend to glorify diversity, and so do young people who feel
>trapped in small towns.
I suppose I didn't express myself too well. My point was that there has to be
*some* commonality between two people to create a friendship. I mean, after
you've finished talking about the weather in your respective countries what more
do you have to say? There has got to be some set of ideas or some framework of 
thinking that both people share. And when I look around me I see that that 
common frame of reference is usually cultural. IMHO there's a good reason for 
this. Friendship is based on some "assumptions" by each of the friends about 
how the other thinks and reacts. Within a common culture, a large set of those 
assumptions can be taken for granted. Of course you'll need to add or subtract
from that set to suit individual characteristics [be sure to start out with a
non-monotonic logic] but that set is large enough that you view the world in
similar ways, enjoy similar things, etc. When you start from scratch, 
as it were, with a person of a totally different culture, you have to build all
these up from ground zero. And yes I totally agree that sometimes this effort is
rewarded. But it doesn't automatically make you a cultural Philistine just 
because you try it and it doesn't work for you, as some people here are 
implying. The criticism you might level at Fraterneties is that they don't even
*attempt* any kind of cultural contact outside of their close knit group. 
Some people have said that they have a diverse group of friends but they are
ultimately most comfortable around a given group. I see nothing wrong in that. 
I think its just being honest.

>[stuff deleted]
>The diversity of experience in a dorm, or at a school like UC
>Berkeley, helps you meet people from a wide variety of backgrounds, and
>to a certain extent we may learn from others' life experiences.
>
To avoid the Tower of Babel scenario, we all have to make that effort to find 
common ground. But that means *everyone* (Whites, Blacks, Indians, Orientals, 
etc.) not just some individuals or particular groups. And I agree a dorm is a 
good place to start.

>Arguing with a close friend of mine from a different culture forced me
>to re-examine many of the cultural assumptions in my personality.  Doing
>and believing on the basis of thought rather than dead habit can never
>be a disadvantage.
That's always a good thing.

>It's the belief in a monolithic, "correct" culture (mine, or ours . . .)
>which fuels all the ethnic strife and division we've seen throughout
>history.  Pick up the newspaper and you'll see the atrocities being
>committed in Bosnia-Herzegova in the name of "ethnic cleansing."  Cleansing
>of what?  Of what and whom are not like you?  Or, listen to an argument
>in my family ;-> and you'll see this cultural absolutism.
Whoa! Hold on a minute, I didn't say anything about the "correct" culture or
about murdering anyone you didnt feel close cultural ties to.
I am more than happy to live and let live. If I or anyone prefers the company
of a certain group of people that deosnt imply that I feel my culture is
"superior" or that I am about to go and destroy any alternative modes of thought

>>>I don't see this problem going away. With the increasing diversity of 
>>>immigration into the US, the workplace 20 years from now, just to give an 
>>>example, could be a real Tower of Babel of languages, customs and attitudes. 
>>>Some kind of attitude shift is going to be required to avert this. 
>>
>>[stuff deleted]
>>politically liberal...so I exclude all conservatives.  I read sf and
>>fantasy...so I exclude everybody who doesn't.   I'd be left with my
>>only friends being Sri Lankan Tamils who are agnostic, liberal, read
>>sf and fantasy, are musicians, like Renaissance Faires, enjoy Middle
>>Eastern food, etc and so on.
Well, if after contact with diverse groups of people, thats the group you still
feel most comfortable with, then I'd say go for it :-)

>>Once you start excluding people - for whatever reason - you start
>>shutting yourself into smaller and smaller boxes...until finally
>>you're crammed into something about 5x5.  Doubt you'd have much room
>>left for friends.
>
>Or in my case, 5'9" x 1' ;').
>
>All of my friends in high school (predominantly white and Asian) were
>of different cultures and races.  Most of my _close_ friends in college
>are Indian-American.  I definitely think I need to get out of my
>coffin.
If you ask me, you should do it because you enjoy it, and not because you
feel obliged to whip up a circle of friends that meets some kind of PC 
criterion.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>The autumn leaves are falling like rain.
>>Although my neighbors are all barbarians,
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> Yet another example of tribalism and narrow-mindedness :-)
>
>>And you, you are a thousand miles away,
>>There are always two cups at my table.		 - A T'ang Dynasty poem
>
>The autumn weathervanes twist in the rain
>Because my neighbors are all cagers,
>And you, you are a few klicks away,
>Momentous frames promise me shavers.
>
>these lush verses will yield new insight into an alternative frame of
>thinking . . . and isn't that what poetry is all about?

OK here goes:

The autumn weathervanes twist in acid rain,
Although my neighbors call me barbarian,
And you, you are a thousand miles away,
There are always Sprint and MCI

(With apologies to the original T'ang poet)

--s;