From: njs@scifi.uucp (Nicholas J. Simicich)
Newsgroups: rec.scuba
Subject: Re: dive flags & boaters
Date: 13 Apr 92 03:16:24 GMT
Organization: Nick Simicich, Peekskill, NY

In article <1992Apr3.112914.23343@mailer.cc.fsu.edu> mayne@cs.fsu.edu
writes:

>In article <2APR199213090362@zeus.tamu.edu> bdd0066@zeus.tamu.edu
>(Bryan, kick the tire and light the fire, Duke) writes:
>>
>>...LISTEN!! I HEAR A POWER BOAT!!  we turned very quickly and headed
>>straight down.  at about 35 ft., we turned up to see a boat passing
>>pretty close to where we were just seconds before.  we waited for
>>another minute or two--until we were both sure we heard
>>nothing--then headed very slowly again to the surface.  when we got
>>there, we saw that we were within 50 ft. of our dive flag.
>
>Why did you come up that far away from your dive flag? I didn't think
>the visibility in Canyon Lake was that good. In such situations I
>follow my line up and surface right next to my dive flag.

Um, what difference does that (U/W vis) make?  Or are you asserting
that the air visibility might not have been that good?  Maybe I don't
understand what you wrote.  The point is, is the person within a
reasonable distance of their dive flag?  It might well happen that a
diver might have an emergency, and not take the time to go up the flag
line, and also, some divers have been taught to not go up their line
and wind it as they go up (although I believe that is the preferred
way to do it, if there is time).

>>For me, that was just a little too close for comfort, but he should
>>have never been there.  my flag was very plain to see.  so why
>>didn't he stay away??
>
>Most likely he didn't have any idea what a dive flag meant. Quite a
>few boaters don't. That doesn't make them idiots.

Would you make the same assertion about a driver who didn't know that
a triangular sign with the large part on top meant 'yield right of
way'?  Or an American driver who went to Britain and ran down a
pedestrian because he didn't bother to read the pamphlet that he got
with his rent-a-car and didn't learn that the zig-zag stripes on the
road meant 'zebra crossing' and that pedestrians have and expect the
right of way in those crossings?  Or how about someone who ran down a
blind person because he never learned what a white cane meant?
Perhaps idiot is a bad appelation, and careless, reckless, or
dangerous (terms applied to drivers who do similar sorts of things)
would be a better ones.

>>...  all i ask for is a little space around my flag.  if that boater
>>would have given us only 100 ft from the flag, there would have been
>>NO danger of losing several lives.	i'm just upset and still
>>shooken from the whole thing.
>>
>>sorry for the flame.
>
>I can understand being frightened and angry after an experience like
>that, but I must disagree with the "all boaters are idiots" attitude
>shown in some articles in rec.scuba. The most flagrant was someone
>else's, not yours. Since I don't want to attack any individual perhaps
>it is best that I put my comments in a response without a specific
>reference.
>
>Most boaters don't know about diving and divers, and this can produce
>dangerous situations. As divers there really isn't much we can do to
>change boaters. We have to learn to protect ourselves. It shouldn't
>be that way, but it is.

In many places, dive flags are the law, and boaters must, by law,
allow them a certain distance.  The fact that someone would enter a
situation and not learn the rules that apply to it (and in many cases
make no effort to learn) speaks to something, at least about that
individual.

Divers must also learn the law.  I think in Connecticut, a dive flag
is only supposed to get you 50 feet, so you should probably plan on
surfacing closer than 25 feet to your flag.  Were I planning on diving
there, I'd ask at a local shop.

>However most boaters aren't idiots or worse just because they don't know
>about our special needs. I don't own a power boat, but I spend a fair
>amount of time on rivers in a canoe. Power boats run on some of these
>rivers. The operators may not have advanced degrees, but most have a
>lot of practical knowledge and nearly all are quite courteous. They
>know to slow down and not make problems with their wakes, and almost
>all do it. They look out for the safety of others on the river and
>respect our rights. I realize that a big lake with a lot of fast boats
>is worse than a river where most of the power boats are used for fishing
>and not thrill seeking.

Unfortunately, it only takes a few idiots to color the whole group.
Most of us have some experience where boaters have nearly run our
flags over, or some such.  The first time I ever used a flag, before I
learned to dive and was snorkeling in the keys, some boater insisted
on buzzing me at high speed.  Even if the flag has no legal meaning,
courtesty and safety seems to require avoiding a snorkler.  The fact
that a boater can recognize a canoe and avoid swamping it doesn't also
relieve them of the legal requirement to recognize and avoid dive
flags.

>Attacking boaters is not the solution. It isn't courteous, it isn't
>reasonable, and it won't help.

This may not be helpful, but I think that it is a natural reaction.
Frankly, it is difficult to notice the good boaters, since they simply
stay away from us divers while we are in the water.  The hope is that
there is an effort in many places to control such things as drinking
while operating and so forth.  If some of that effort could be
applied, casually, to ticketing a few operators who buzzed dive flags,
I think that the word would get around.

>Boaters are much more numerous than divers and the boating industry has
>much more clout. If it comes to confrontation we'll lose. If we try to
>push for really tough regulation of boats by yelling too loudly about
>hazards to divers the result is more likely to be tough regulations on
>diving.

The boating industry has so much clout that new, onerous use and
purchase taxes seem to be being shoved down boater's throats at the
state and federal level every year, and so forth.  The boating
industry has so much clout that customs agents tear up boats every
day, find nothing, and say, "tough", and go on, and it doesn't even
make the papers.

My understanding is that in CT, also, the law used to be that a diver
who was in a boating area using a flag could be ticketed as a 'hazard
to navigation' and that law was just changed in favor of divers.

>Bill Mayne


-- 
Nick Simicich - uunet!bywater!scifi!njs - njs@watson.ibm.com
SSI #AOWI 3958, HSA 318, NAUI #14065
Join the movement ---  turn 'to bush' into a verb.
From: davew@hp-ptp.ptp.hp.com (Dave Waller)
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1992 17:12:11 GMT
Subject: Re: Tanks and GA aircraft
Organization: HP Pacific Technology Park - Sunnyvale, Ca.