HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: hanners@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Robert Hanners)
Newsgroups: rec.boats
Subject: Re: Help, strange tiller action
Date: 16 Oct 92 18:11:57 GMT
Reply-To: hanners@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Robert Hanners)
Organization: Carderock Division, NSWC, Annapolis, MD

In rec.boats, paul@ee.rochester.edu (Paul Osborne) writes:
>        I'm hoping that a few will take a shot at this one, I'm out of
>        theorys. Sailing on a friends Venture 224 last week, I noticed
>        that starting at about 3 knots the tiller started to oscilate
>        or shake slowly from port to starbd. As the boat picked up more
>        speed this continued and the freq. incresed. This is not a violent
>        movement but is very annoying.

What you may have been seeing is a result the well known vortex shedding
phenomenon.  Any body with insufficient "streamlining" of especially
the after portion will exhibit flow separation.  This separation generally
results in eddies or vortices "shedding" and spinning in alternate rotation
from the aft portion of the body.  This happens in any fluid.  In air
it is often seen and heard on bimini straps and halyards.  In the water
it can cause flutter of a daggerboard or rudder, as is often noted with
catamarans at high speed.

It's difficult to tell from your discription what frequency the vibration
you felt was at.  I'm guessing something between 1 and 4 Hz (cycles per
second).  If so, you may be feeling the rudder being kicked back and
forth by the alternate vortex trail of the keel or prop.

Most of these situations can modeled as vortices generated by a cylinder
with its axis perpendicular to the flow of the fluid.  It's been several
years, but I as I recall, the frequency is proportional to the fluid
velocity and inversely proportional to the fluid density and the cylinder's
diameter:  f = C V / (rho D).  This is called the Strouhal frequency,
named after its discoverer.

I think I recall that in water this frequency is about equal to 3.5
times the velocity in knots divided by the diameter in inches.  Thus in
your discription at three knots with my guess of your frequency (1 to
4 Hz), the diameter (after keel thickness) would be 2 1/2 to 10 inches.
2 1/2 inches perhaps fits the keel.  10 inches would be more consistant
with a horrible dragging propeller vortex wake.

Don't despair however; once you've calibrated it, measuring the frequency
will be a great knotmeter. :-)

>        Second question. One his main the luff has slugs for ease of
>        up and down. But the foot is bolt rope. When he has to reef
>        the tyes are around the sail and the boom. Sail shape remains
>        good. He asked me why do all the books say not to tye around
>        boom.

Haven't the foggiest here-- I screw up and tie around the boom. :-)

-- Bob

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Robert J. Hanners         "My comments; only mine."          *DIASTOLE* 676673
CD, NSWC, Annapolis, MD                              hanners@oasys.dt.navy.mil
Newsgroups: rec.boats
From: iseman@ravel.udel.edu (Stephen Early)
Subject: Re: Boat Yard Rip Off
Organization: University of Delaware
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 14:03:51 GMT

In article <16878E4E0.STU@mwvm.mitre.org> STU@mwvm.mitre.org writes:
> 
>My lawyer (I hate lawyers more than boatyards - but want the boat back),
>said to pay them what they ask by credit card - and protest the charges later
>to the credit card company - after I am safely away under sail.
> 

Your lawyer's advice to dispute the repair bill after paying it with your
credit card will get you the boat back but may not get you the money back.

Regulation Z, which governs the use of credit such as your credit card states
that you have the right to dispute the charge if you feel services were not
rendered satisfactorally.  There are some exceptions.  First if the boatyard
is more that 100 miles from your credit card billing address, forget it.  Reg
Z specifically states you must make the charge within this radius to have the
right to dispute it.  Second, you must still prove your case just as if you
were suing the boatyard in court.  The fact that you paid for the services and
you knew what you were paying for weakens your case.  Strictly interpreted, 
Reg. Z states that quantity is a dispute while quality is not.

That is the objective side.  Now the subjective side.  A dispute is handled
by your bank and the credit card label (Visa, M/C) and is being reviewed by
real people, thus the subjective element.  Your bank may not be able to get
you a full or partial credit from the merchant however if you are persistant 
your bank may simply 'eat' the loss.  The odds of this are increased if you
have been with them for a long time & if you are a good customer.

I think your lawyer gave you the best advice for your situation; at least
you'll get your boat back.  Just remember to put your dispute in writing
since calling your bank does not preserve your rights.  And remember that
you are not entitled to the credit, you are asking your bank to *help* you
get credit.  Be persistant but not abusive and you'll probably come out
ahead.

Good luck.

Steve
From: tarkkone@klaava.Helsinki.FI (Lauri Tarkkonen)
Newsgroups: rec.boats
Subject: Re: 5 sailing questions
Date: 15 Oct 92 21:47:06 GMT
Organization: University of Helsinki

In <1992Oct15.171532.17391@netcom.com> truher@netcom.com (Joel Burke Truher) writes:

>In article <BOWERS.92Oct14114008@rigel.dfrf.nasa.gov> bowers@rigel.dfrf.nasa.gov (Al Bowers) writes:
>>
>>Yes, wings assist on every point of sail, except dead downwind.  The
>>shape assists in the reduction of drag, and the shape also assists in
>>getting the lead down lower (making the boat less tender).  

>So is the wing just an endplate?  Does it produce any lift of its
>own or does it just block the flow around the bottom of the keel?

>Joel

The question of the usefulnesnes of the wings is not very simple. In the
12 mR yacht the wings MIGHT help, because there is a heavy penalty of the
draft, it it exceeds a certain figure.

If there were no penalty for the draft, then there would be no wing keels
in the 12 mR yachts.

If we speak about the race between Conner and Bertrand, one should remember
that the Conner did not loose the cup beacause of the superior boatspeed
of the aussies on the wind, but to a tactical misjudgement on the run.
And there did the winged keel have nothing to do.

The general effect of the keel is that it is an edplate, it vreates more
drag, but if you want to have a shallow draft boat with some reasonable
weight down, you might get something out of the keel, but you are going
to loose any beating batle to a sistership with a deep fin keel without
any bogus. 

Secondly if you are hoping to get some performance improvement from a
wing, it must be properly designed and the wings hanging on most cruising
boats are not. I can promise you that there are very few cruising boats
where the keel is doing anything good but reducing the draft. This is 
of course a bonus, but not a performance bonus.

As a proof of this I can tell, that Nautor makes several of its Swans
with a fin, Scheel or a wing keel. The people at Nautor have told me,
that the fin keel boat beats the sisterships whitout any effort. So they
recommend the Scheel or wing only if the customer wants to cuise in areas
where the draft is a real handicap.  Actually if you want to have the
shallow draft only while approaching the shore you can have a shallow
keel and a centerboard. They might outperform the odinary fin if properly
made.

- Lauri Tarkkonen
From: mike@ravel.udel.edu (Michael James Porter)
Newsgroups: rec.boats
Subject: Butane on Powerboats?
Date: 9 Oct 92 18:01:13 GMT
Article-I.D.: news.Bvv8q2.LuH
Organization: University of Delaware

We're trying to decide between a single burner alcohol stove and a
butane stove.  

Is butane lighter than air?  How well does it heat compared to alcohol?
How dangerous is it?

Any info or experiences would be appreciated.

Mike
Newsgroups: rec.boats
From: root@watson.ibm.com (The Root of all Evil)
Subject: Re: GPS
Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1992 19:06:35 GMT
Distribution: na
Reply-To: dwl@watson.ibm.com 
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM Thomas J. Watson Research Center

In article <MARC.92Oct8142644@marc.watson.ibm.com>, marc@watson.ibm.com
(Marc Auslander) writes:
|> Unless the defense establishment caves on selective availability, the
|> Coast Guard will almost certainly install differential GPS.  It is
|> already experimenting with this service.  Differential will give
|> something like 10 meter accuracy (this is from memory, may be off)
|> instead of the 100 meter degraded performance with SA.
|> 
|> Thus, if you buy a GPS without a differential receiver compatible with
|> what the Coast Guard is doing, you're going to want to replace it.
|> But I know of no receiver now available which fits this bill - at
|> least none at a sensible price.
|> 
|> So I say wait if you can - GPS with differential will be a real improvement.
|> 
|> (By the way, 100 meters is enough to be out of sight of a bouy in the
|> kind of fog we get in the North East now and again.)
|> --
|> 
|> 
|> Marc Auslander       (IBM)<marc@marc.watson.ibm.com>      914 784-6699
|>                      (Internet)<marc@watson.ibm.com>

Marc's certainly right. One way or the other, GPS is going to provide better
accuracy in the future, either differential, or DOD will be browbeaten into
turning off the encryption of the last few bits. 

On the other hand, you really don't need all that accuracy. Sure, it's nice,
sure it's worth a little money, but you shouldn't be navigating to depend on it
anyway. All that wonderful electrical stuff is great when it works, but 
sooner or later it stops. You can get from point a to point b, in the fog,
in current, and under sail, for that matter, without a Loran, and certainly
without 100 foot accuracy on your electronic aids. If you sail enough, sooner
or later, you'll have no choice.

At this point, I'd go and buy a decent Loran, learn it's limitations and learn
how to navigate without it, and consider that more than adequate. At some point
in a few years, GPS will make more sense, but right now you're paying a lot
for something you really don't need.  

David W. Levine --  dwl@watson.ibm.com  -- IBM Thomas J. Watson Research Center
                   -- My Opinions, IBM's hardware. -- 
"Fanaticism consists in redoubling your efforts when you have forgotten your
aim" - George Santayana  
Newsgroups: rec.boats
From: ecf_stbo@jhuvms.hcf.jhu.edu (Heaven fits sky so ride them!)
Subject: Re: dingy bottoms
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: The Johns Hopkins University - HCF
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1992 14:39:00 GMT

In article <2670139@hplvec.LVLD.HP.COM>, bsmith@hplvec.LVLD.HP.COM (Brian Smith) writes...
>Whenever any male member of my
>crew needed to pee, I used to send him up forward to do it over the
>bow, thus gaining and edge on the competition....

But you were throwing it all away with increased pitching moment. OH VELL...


Tom O'Toole - ecf_stbo@jhuvms.hcf.jhu.edu - JHUVMS system programmer 
Homewood Computing Facilities, Johns Hopkins University, Balto. Md. 21218 
>Here comes a jet ski.
>weuh weeuhh weeuhh weeuhh WEEUHH WEEUHH WEEUHH WEEUHH weeuhh weeuhh weeuhh weuh
Organization: Arizona State University
Date: Wednesday, 14 Oct 1992 12:25:04 MST
From: <ATLEM@ASUACAD.BITNET>
Newsgroups: rec.boats
Subject:    what is colregs?

That is the question? I see many  references to Colregs in this
group. I can see it involves rules and regualtions. Is it
 group like USYR or a book or a short word for a long title?
From: bennett@erich.triumf.ca (P.Bennett)
Newsgroups: rec.boats
Subject: Tying a Bowline
Date: 10 Oct 1992 17:24 PDT
Organization: TRIUMF: Tri-University Meson Facility
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: erich.triumf.ca
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    

When I taught at a sailing school, I found that the "rabbit around the tree"
method tying a bowline often didn't work, as students, following Murphy's
law, would make the "rabbit hole" upside down.  Also, most books show the
bowline tied with the loop towards you, while I find I am most often tying
it around something, with the loop away from me.

I use the following method:
1. Pass the working end of the line around (or through) whatever you are
   tying to, left to right.
2. Wrap the end around the standing part, with the end away from you (in a
   long spiral, not a tight loop), so the end comes up through the loop you
   are tying.
3. Lift the free end (and possibly the adjacent portion of the standing part)
   and pull it up, and towards you.  You should then have "the rabbit through
   the rabbit hole" (the right way, automatically).
4. Take the end under the standing part right to left, then down through
   the "rabbit hole".

This method works best when you are tying the loop around something, so you
have something to pull against.  However, once you have your lines trained,
you will be able to use it anytime.  :-)

Here follows ASCII art:

After step 2:                          After step 3:
                      __________                   ______
                     /          \                 /      \
                     |          |                 |       |
        Lift here -> | /        |                 |       |
        and pull     |/         |                 |       /
        down       / |          |               _ | ____/
                   | |          |              /  |     \  end comes up
                    \           |              |  \   | |  through small loop
                     \          |              |    \ |_/
                     |\_________/              |      |
                     |                         |      |
                     |                         |     / <- pass under standing
                     |                         |         part then down
                     |                         |         through small loop

If the drawings are hard to understand - well, they were hard to draw :-)
(I could try to make an AutoCad drawing, and post a HPGL plot file.)


Peter Bennett VE7CEI                | Vessels shall be deemed to be in sight
Internet: bennett@erich.triumf.ca   | of one another only when one can be
Bitnet:   bennett@triumfer          | observed visually from the other
TRIUMF, Vancouver, B.C., Canada     |                          ColRegs 3(k)

Newsgroups: rec.boats
From: EPLUS17@vmd.cso.uiuc.edu (Richard Engelbrecht-Wiggans)
Subject: Re: Butane on Powerboats?
Organization: C.C.S.O.
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1992 01:16:25 GMT

In article <Bvv8q2.LuH@news.udel.edu>
mike@ravel.udel.edu (Michael James Porter) writes:
 
>Is butane lighter than air?  How well does it heat compared to alcohol?
>How dangerous is it?
 
According to my 47th edition of the CRC handbook, Butane has the chemical
formula CH3CH2CH2CH3 giving it a molecular weight of 34 versus roughly
an average of roughly 15 for the stuff that makes up air.  The same
source tells me that Butane boils at -0.5 degrees C.  So, at room
at room temperature, butane is lightly twice as dense as air.  (This
same handbook tells me that d cos x = sin x, and I have had twenty
years to forget my college chemistry, so don't bet your life on my
conclusions.)
 
Also, different alcohols (methanol, ethanol, propanol, etc.) have
different heats of combustion.  This may or may not make a difference
in the answer to your second question.  (I can't seem to find a table
of the heats of combustion of gases...of building materials yes, but
that doesn't help here.)
 
 
From: Paul.Saltzman@f764.n153.z1.ship.wimsey.bc.ca (Paul Saltzman)
Sender: UUCP@ship.wimsey.bc.ca
Newsgroups: rec.boats
Subject: wood flooors
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 08:12:00 -0800

i recall a older edition of sail magizine doing an article on wood
floors. it would be worth your while to try to contact there editiors
and get a copy of it, i have always found them to be most helpful.
Practicle Sailor magizine, a tech report would be another choice and
could be even better then sail, they are unbiased in there response and
survive on service, no advertisements in there mag. Daniel sperry (might
be wrong last name) is the editor. He spent an hour with me on steel
hull refinishing, this was the first time we spoke, we dont know each
other, i was just a subscriber. definitly worth the call. if you have
trouble ingetting a no# for PS leave word and i'll get it for you. I
enjoy the community of sailing, happy to help out if i can...

 * OLX 2.2 * Press any key to continue or any other key to quit


Newsgroups: rec.boats
From: fallavol@fred.nas.nasa.gov (Michael A. Fallavollita)
Subject: Follow-up on Standard instruments
Organization: NAS, NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 92 06:44:47 GMT
Distribution: usa

A couple of you have mentioned the fact that both instruments have
failed so I thought I'd post a little background.  As I mentioned in the
first post, the boat was out of the water when I bought it.  I did
check to make sure the impeller was free before the boat went in the
water.  The transducer is another story.  The first day the boat went
in the water, I took on about 2 gallons of water from around the 
transducer.  I brought the boat back to the yard this afternoon and it
is currently on the lift so they can re-bed the transducer.

Both instruments were mounted on a small companionway slat that could be
placed in the companionway when underway, and removed and stored inside
the rest of the time.  This means that a power connector and the inputs
for both meters must be installed each time they are used.  It is hard to
say if these instruments were abused but since they are both mounted in
the same unit, it is possible that they suffered some kind of shock.

When I first connected the Speed/Log, the only displays I would get were
on the LOG and ELAPSED functions.  Both showed "000", and the other
displays were just blank.  The Depth Sounder was much more eratic.  At
first it would show 4.7-5.9 feet and if I let it sit, it would go to ~12
and then into the hundreds.  If I turned it on and off, it might go
to 0.4 feet, or the buzzer might go off.  Some times it would have a
display with just "pieces" of numbers.

With such erratic behavior, I thought they might need a good cleaning.
I took them out of the cases and sprayed them liberally with WD-40.  This
didn't have any effect on the Speed/Log but the Depth Sounder eventually
gave up altogether.

Anyway, I think I am going to send them off to Standard tomorrow or
Thursday.  After I get the quote I'll decide what to do.  I'll post the
end results when this is all resolved.

By the way, I only had one response from someone who has sent an instrument
back.  He seemed very happy with the way Standard handled things.  Since
it was still under warranty, he couldn't say anything about cost.

Mike Fallavollita
fallavol@corvus.arc.nasa.gov
From: keith@iscp.Bellcore.COM (Keith Hawkins)
Newsgroups: rec.boats
Subject: Backing up
Date: 13 Oct 92 18:06:46 GMT
Reply-To: keith@iscp.Bellcore.COM (Keith Hawkins)
Organization: Bell Communications Research (Bellcore)


The other day I was having trouble backing up
with my sailboat and turning at the same time.

Turning in one direction worked fine, turning the
other direction did not.  In fact, the boat kept turning
in the original direction despite havning the tiller
pushed all the way to the other side.

One of the guys in the marina said that was normal, that
sailboats seem to back in one direction better than
the other.

What causes this??

-Keith
Newsgroups: rec.boats
From: swist@doodly.mcc.dec.com (Jim Swist)
Subject: Re: Wellcraft Fishing Boats
Keywords: fishing, recommendations
Reply-To: swist@took.enet.dec.com
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 19:15:07 GMT



The previous post is right on.  All the fishing boat makers are
chasing Grady White and as such the watchword is "no compromise
fishing boats".  It's in all their ads.  It is very difficult to 
find a "family fishing boat" under 25' which does a credible, if not
outstanding, job of both fishing and cruising.

When I look at cruising boats I'm put off by carpet everywhere, cockpit
so crowded with lounge seats that you can't walk around, and silly
"Eurostyle" rakes and curves that basically rob space and make you drive
with the top windshield frame pointed into your eyes.

When I look at fishing boats I see tiny cuddies, no full-width transom seating
(and no way to put more seating in without covering dozens of fishboxes, wells,
etc), and walkarounds designed for much more than the 3 times a year I
might need to fight a fish all the way around the boat (I should be so
lucky).

So the Wellcraft really stuck out as unique in this regard, but after a
thorough examination of a 248 Sportsman yesterday, I came to the same 
conclusion as Powerboat Reports - the hull seemed very well built (I couldn't
get it to flex as suggested in a previous post), but the finishing materials
(gauges, fittings, canvas, joinery, electrical, etc) were strictly
ordinary.   I would rank it about like SeaRay (3 on a scale of 1 to 5
where Bayliner is 1 and Grady or Bos Whaler is 5).   (Now watch me get
flamed on that last sentence, strictly IMHO of course :-)
From: jrm@cbnews.cb.att.com (john.r.miller)
Newsgroups: rec.boats
Subject: Re: Pirates
Date: 14 Oct 92 19:04:35 GMT
Article-I.D.: cbnews.1992Oct14.190435.28093
Distribution: na
Organization: AT&T

In article <1992Oct14.150846.25165@watson.ibm.com>, walter@watson.ibm.com (Walter Wilson) writes:
> 
> -- 
> I have heard 10th hand that there are pirates active in
> the Carribean. Anybody on the net have any <10th hand
> encounters?
> 
>   Walter G. Wilson  (walter@watson.ibm.com)


	Har, haven't seen a pirate in the Carribean for years matey.


						-BB
From: spencer@panix.com (David Spencer)
Newsgroups: rec.boats
Subject: DC to sail next Italian AC Challenge?
Date: 13 Oct 92 15:41:20 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Unix, NYC

Sunday's New York Times claimed that Dennis Connor is being courted by
the _Italia_ syndicate to skipper its next America's Cup challenge.

As my partner says, "DC'd do that in a New York minute." DC with
unlimited money and an experienced crew ... What's the breeze like off
Venice?

dhs    spencer@panix.com
"There is nothing -- absolutely nothing -- half so much worth
           doing as simply messing around in boats"
                _The Wind in the Willows_
Newsgroups: rec.boats
From: rrrucke@srv.PacBell.COM (Rod Rucker)
Subject: Wiring Harness
Organization: Pacific * Bell
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1992 18:54:27 GMT

I recently had the connections from my console to the engine & battery
cause me trouble.  A great deal of sparking and smoking came from the
console.  I found it was the plug that connected to the wiring harness
was corroded.

Rather than just replace the harness and connectors, I decided to just
run direct wiring back to the engine compartment and bundle the wires
together with tie wraps.  

What is the advantage of a wiring harness?  Other than having the
ability to unplug the electrical components at the console and the
engine, I can't see any purpose it serves.  If there is a purpose
to the harness, am I screwing up by running direct wire??


-- 
Rod Rucker
rrrucke@srv.PacBell.COM
PADI DM-47240

Newsgroups: rec.boats