From: bevans@carina.unm.edu (Mathemagician)
Subject: Re: women in engineering etc. + Bonus! Sexist Incident!
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 92 14:03:24 GMT
Organization: Society for the Preservation of E. coli

In article <JULIE.92Sep9135457@cucbs.chem.columbia.edu> julie@cucbs.chem.columbia.edu (Julie Wright) writes:
>In article <6ksn7t+@lynx.unm.edu> bevans@carina.unm.edu (Mathemagician) writes:
>>This sort of gets into the constant student complaint of, "Why am I
>>taking this class?  I'm never going to need it!"

>>For instance, your last example comes to mind.  I *do* believe that
>>Calculus should be a required course before being accepted into a
>>"hard science" major program.

>>Harvey Mudd College has changed their curriculum to one that assumes
>>the freshmen have already had first-year Calculus (or, under the old
>>system, first semester).  

>I meant was, if the college argues that anyone who has not already finished
>calculus by the time they hit college simply isn't smart enough to do certain
>things, and therefore should not be allowed to major in certain fields,
>then the student won't be *allowed* to *try* to catch up.

Well, I'll agree with you there.  In the case of Harvey Mudd, there
are no Math classes lower than second-year Calculus.  It isn't so much
as them saying you're not smart enough to go into certain
fields...it's that they don't want to have to do the "remedial" work.

(Granted, this could easily get into academic "snobbery" of the kind
Harvey Mudd is famous for...HMC was recently listed as the #1
Engineering college in the country by _US News & World Report_...a
fact the Dean of Students will quickly point out to you...nevermind
the fact that the students say that going to HMC is hell.)

I guess I'm talking more about "non-traditional" methods of getting a
degree.  I don't feel that a person *must* go to college for *just*
four years and four years *only* and if you don't have your degree,
you're just a stupid fuck.

I do feel that "entrance requirements" are a good thing...however, I
don't think people should be discouraged from doing what they can to
pass those requirements.

>	I was probably influenced by my own experiences in coming up with
>that example, although I wasn't consciously thinking of my own life.

[example of sexist teacher making her feel horrid about math classes
deleted for space.]

I don't mean to belittle your experience (because I feel it is quite
valid and needs to be dealt with), but such experiences are common
(for various reasons).  That is, you had a horrid professor from whom
you couldn't learn.  The specific problem was that he was "a sexist,
egotistical, lying, hypocritical bigot" (well, I don't know about the
lying and hypocritical parts, but the phrase is so nice, I decided to
use it all.)

I've had professors dismiss me because of my major, my gender, and my
age.  To this day, I refuse to take Abstract Algebra and I think it's
pretty much because of the professor I had for it (due to massive
clerical error, I wasn't able to register for the class until the last
day possible...he took this as evidence that I wasn't "dedicated"
enough to learn the material.  He refused to accept the homework of
the first two weeks I had missed that I did  because he didn't want to
"bother the grader"...even though she didn't mind (I asked her.)  When
I missed a class due to a cold (for which I went to the Health Center
to get approval forms), I received a low-grade notice claiming that I
"skipped class," and other forms of general harrassment.  Needless to
say, I dropped the class.)  I don't like Physics because I've yet to
meet a physicist who could explain the subject to me without merely
"going through the problem again" (that is, I am perpetually confused
as to when to use what formula where...the professors, when I met them
in their offices for help, would simply go over the problems and
derivations again not seeming to realise that that wouldn't help me on
the test if I didn't know *why* I was using those formulas.)  I am
quite pissed that the UNM Theatre Department for admitting that I have
the talent, but because I'm "not in the department," I won't be
allowed to take the classes to develop it (funny, but I thought being
a minor was being "in the department.")

>If anyone had told me sophomore year,
>"Look, you just haven't proven yourself in math.  Go major in something
>else," I would have done it without a fight.  But, obviously, they would
>have been wrong, at that college at that time.  Close call...

My personal feeling is that this is common to *all* students.  I went
through it, myself...and the worse thing was, I had cordoned *myself*
out of various majors.  I majored in Math "by default."  My father
told me that the Arts were out (I was considering majoring in Music
when my father told me that unless I majored in "something
substantial," I wouldn't get any money.)  The Humanities had too much
writing (I don't mind writing, but I always seem to end up going
against the "typical" theory causing the professors to automatically
declare my conclusions invalid without bothering to read what they
are), so that left the Sciences.

Engineering?  Nah...didn't want an Engineering degree.  Chemistry?  I
don't mind it, but I wouldn't want to do it for a living (besides...I
flunked second semester and I'd heard about P-Chem:  Given the Ideal
Gas Law, prove the sky is blue.)  Biology?  Same thing (though I did
get an A- in Intro to Bio...and the college didn't have a major for
it, anyway.)  Physics?  Physics is the Evil Spawn of Satan.  Computer
Science?  Nah...didn't want a CS degree (plus the fact that I didn't
quite click with Algorithms).  So what else am I going to major in?

Math!  I could do Math!  I was great in Math in high school (except
for that second-year Calculus...but I was on major senioritis at that
point and couldn't give a fuck.)  Well, I was in for quite a shock
when I hit college.  Calculus was "alright."  Linear Algebra was
"doable."  Discrete was "some parts are great/some are 'huh?'"  Diff
Eq was "bizarre, but doable."  Differential Geometry floored me.
Fundamental Concepts completely baffled me (I understood everything
conceptually, I just couldn't prove anything rigorously.)

However, I stuck with it and found that my problem wasn't so much Math
in general...it was that I needed to find areas where I fit better.
Applied Matrix Theory was tough, but rewarding.  Numerical Computation
was a breeze.  I actually liked Statistics.

The thing is, if I had listened to myself and some of my other
professors telling me that I couldn't do it, I wouldn't have done it,
either.  This happens to all of us...in different ways and for
different reasons, true...but it happens.

-- 
Brian Evans                |     "Bad mood, bad mood...Sure I'm in a bad mood!
bevans@carina.unm.edu      |      I haven't had sex...*EVER!*" -- Virgin Mary