HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: sos@oz.plymouth.edu (Steffan O'Sullivan)
Subject: Re: net.rpg.freeform: Post 2 of 2
Reply-To: sos@oz.plymouth.edu (Steffan O'Sullivan)
Organization: Plymouth State College - Plymouth, N.H.
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 92 01:29:24 GMT

rrn@stein.u.washington.edu (X Visser) writes:
>
>I read SOS's, and am somewhat confused. I mean, why not simplify?

Hmm.  I thought I *had*!

>Traits are (I'd use 3 of 'em, but use more if you like) rated from 1-6.

The reason I went 1 to 7 is because I like an Average stat.  I also
like the idea that you can use words to instantly identify where
someone is in the spectrum.  Everyone can relate to: "Is he better than
average?"  If the answer is yes, then is he merely Good, or even
Superior to that, or one of the elite Excellent few?  Too many more
distinctions than that and you lose the simplicity; any fewer and it's
too grainy.

>Tasks are rolled on 1d6. 

You lose me right there - I hate straight progression systems.  I'm
firmly in the bell-curve camp, sorry.

>If more, the task fails. If less, the task succeeds.
>the degree of success (DOS) is equal to the amount on the die when a
>success is rolled. Thus, in a contest, If Ed and Joe have 4s, and they roll
>1 and 4, respectively, Joe wins.

This is what I have, except using a bell curve.

>Damage is x(DS). Apply as a penalty to assets, or simply from Strength/Con/End
>as hp loss. Parries reduce attacking DS by their own DS, so you can reduce the
>effects of a hit without completely blocking it.

I'll think on this, thanks.

>Award, say (for 3 traits), 10 points to divide. Skill points are equal to
>(two lowest traits). Cost of skills is:
>
>[(2Skill Level)/(Trait+3)]^0.5, rounded to the tenth (publish a table for
>exponetiaphobes). 

And you say mine is complex?  To me, mine is much simpler than this.
Different outlooks on life, I guess.  "We don't need no stinking
points," is my battle cry for character creation!

>For super-powers, start with more points for traits, and allow powers to be
>bought, at levels, from them. So, in a super-hero game, start with, say, 16
>points, and make speed:4, or somethiong cost a certain amount of points?

I don't want points, so I can't use this, but thanks for replying!

-- 
  - Steffan O'Sullivan		         sos@oz.plymouth.edu
From: leet@acsu.buffalo.edu (Brian D. Leet)
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
Subject: net.rpg: Life Path vs. Point Allocation vs. Random Allocation
Date: 17 Nov 92 00:02:50 GMT
Article-I.D.: acsu.Bxu2sq.K4x
Organization: UB

While I am at it let me make a few comments on this whole character 
generation issue.  First of all I do not think a life path system should
be a substitute for any other systems.  In fact it should by nature be a
secondary system in whatever is done.  Any good life path character generation
would be a) too time consuming for many situations, b) too limited in scope 
(as pointed out before) and c) too enormous to have a complete one made for 
every sub-genre and campaign that might exist.  I think that it would make
for an interesting alternative especially for first time role-players 
however.  It is nice to know why you have that skill rather than saying well
I know I have the skill but how did I get it.  I am talking about neophytes
here!  Obviously most experienced roleplayers generally prefer more freedom
to "invent" their past.
As far as random allocation is concerned I have a single thing to say:
People may be (and indeed should!) viewed as equal under the law, but not
all people are created equal.  Good roleplayers should be able to deal with
and in fact make a benefit out of this situation.  I can't think of a single
good novel offhand where all the characters struck me as being "play-balanced",
and role-playing is about story-telling isn't it?  Random allocation should
definitly be permitted.  If people are having fun playing the game what right
do we have to criticize?  Yes some people would create god-like characters
but that is the province of the individual campaign and GM to moderate, not 
teh game system itself.
				My $0.02 again.
						Brian Leet
From: jliukkon@klaava.Helsinki.FI (Juha-Matti Liukkonen)
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
Subject: Re: net.rpg: musing on the stat tree
Date: 24 Nov 92 01:47:43 GMT
Organization: University of Helsinki

magnus@bark-fddi.ii.uib.no (Magnus Alvestad) writes:

>That was one big post.

Sorry about that... Sort of slipped :)

>I still think all race-spesific modification should stay in the
>race-method, so you can add races, change races, remove races etc.
>without changing all the skills. 

Ahem, I kinda thought that when the character starts, he is of some race
and/or culture - and will remain that way..? I suppose I didn't explain
my purpose well enough (well, I'm no Shakespeare, so no flames thanks.)

The idea is exactly to keep the race-specific modification to the race.
When you make a character of that race, you apply the modification to
your skill - thus, you shouldn't need to add it during play.

Unless, of course, as you say, your race changes... Sort of a rarity
(in my games at least) though :)

I'm in favor of the stat+skill vs. difficulty scenario. However, I'd
like to see the "stat+skill" written beside my skill as my total skill,
so I'd not need to calculate it when I need to use it. And in my
opinion, the skill section of this "stat + skill" comprises of 1)
childhood experience, 2) career experience, and 3) adventuring
experience. This childhood experience is the "race modification" which
is applied when the character is created (unless the character is
created as a stillborn...)

Differing methods of accounting for the childhood experience gladly
welcomed, of course! This is just the one I see as the most simple.

>Hiding method behind information again.

Not my intention though. Or, perhaps, just a difference of
interpretation...

>-Magnus
-- 
               Juha Liukkonen, aka jliukkon@cc.helsinki.fi
            University of Helsinki, Dept. of Monkey Business
                                 --O--
           "Trust me, I know what I'm doing." - Sledge Hammer
From: loren@wmkt.wharton.upenn.edu (Loren Miller)
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
Subject: Re: net.rpg.freeform: Post 2 of 2
Date: 18 Nov 92 15:12:32 GMT
Organization: Wharton Marketing

In article <1992Nov18.132534.1650@oz.plymouth.edu> sos@oz.plymouth.edu (Steffan O'Sullivan) writes:
>millerl@wharton.upenn.edu writes:
>>You're doing this to get a bell curve, but it seems to me that a bell
>>curve isn't as important as a modal probability distribution. If you're
>>going to use cards anyway, why not simplify a little more, and get rid
>>of the bell curve for a more natural (with cards) modal curve?
>Welcome, Loren!  However, you've lost me here.  Since this is r.g.design,
>and math is essential to many game designs, please expand on what you
>mean by a modal curve.  This term is not in my vocabulary.

The mode is the most common value in a distribution. In a 3d6 distribution 
10 and 11 are the most common values, and they are equally likely, so they 
are the mode. A modal distribution is simply a distribution that has some 
values that are more likely than others.

>Do you mean for one side to play one card, then the other side plays
>one card (or two if playing a face card), and that's the end of the
>round? 

Yep. If you allow face cards to be played on top of face cards then it might 
go longer, with bidding on results if you want to add more tactics to the 
thing. Heck you could use a doubling cube if you wanted to keep track of 
results.

> Or does the round continue until someone can't play anymore?
>BTW, this makes face cards VERY potent, and there are a lot of them!  I
>fear this would devalue combat skill too much.  Could someone play a
>face card, and then as a second card, another face card, which would
>allow yet another card to be played?  Yikes!  That gets into very high
>numbers quickly, which makes the skill level less important.

You could have a two card limit if you wanted. The more important thing is 
if you play out all the cards in your hand you're out. You can't get more 
until your next action. If someone attacks you in the meantime you're in 
trouble. This means you don't always want to play out all the cards in your 
hand.

I have another idea that might not make such big values as the face card 
rule above.

Each player plays single cards, or can play a meld. Melds would include 
two or more of a number, or a straight (3 minimum), or a straight flush 
(3 card minimum). 2 of a kind (or 3 or 4 etc) would be counted by adding up 
the cards (straight pip count, and face cards are 10), as would a straight, 
while a straight flush would count for double points.

Example:
Henry plays 2 8s, for a total of 16.
Jimbob plays the 2,3,4 of hearts, for 9 points doubled, or 18.
Tricia, the GM, defends for the monster with two Kings, for a total of 20.

-- 
+++++++++++++++++++++++23
Loren Miller              LOREN@wmkt.wharton.upenn.edu
Shoes are the most basic prerequisite for liberty
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
From: magnus@bark-fddi.ii.uib.no (Magnus Alvestad)
Subject: Re: net.rpg: Life Path vs. Point Allocation vs. Random Allocation
Reply-To: magnus@ii.uib.no
Organization: UVBS -> SFK/T-DSA / SOPS - HOS / RNoN
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 92 22:40:14 GMT

>>>>> On 17 Nov 92 00:02:50 GMT, leet@acsu.buffalo.edu (Brian D. Leet)
>>>>> said:

	Brian> whole character generation issue.  First of all I do
	Brian> not think a life path system should be a substitute for
	Brian> any other systems.  In fact it should by nature be a

You are probably right. We'll leave it alone for a while, and then we
can get back to it when all the important part are settled. We could
make one for fast'n dirty NPC generation, and then expand it for
neophyte use if possible. And then... ;-)

-Magnus
From: millerl@wharton.upenn.edu
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
Subject: Re: net.rpg.freeform: cardplay
Date: 19 Nov 92 05:15:56 GMT
Organization: Newt World Order

In article <-my19bq@rpi.edu>, cleggp@aix.rpi.edu (Paul Jason Clegg) writes:
> One thing I think people may be missing though, is the ease of use factor.
> As a GM, you're going to be controlling several people at once; it's going
> to be a real mess maintaining that many different hands of cards at once.

I was assuming that the GM would only have one hand of cards, though it
should be larger if he has to deal with multiple characters, or perhaps
the GM only plays one hand, and the numbers apply to *all* the GM
characters. They all have good luck and bad luck at the same time. Nah,
that wouldn't work. For one thing, my initiative idea wouldn't work, and
I think that's one of the key issues to decide with cardplay. So maybe
the GM should have the same hand size as the players, only add a half
handful (round down?) of cards per GM character past the first one. If
handsize is 5, then each character past one adds 2 to handsize. If
handsize is 8, then each character past one adds 4 to handsize.

-- 
whoah,
+++++++++++++++++++++++23
Loren Miller                           internet: MILLERL@wharton.upenn.edu
Mediocrity is a hand rail.                         -- Baron de Montesquieu
Xref: sparky rec.games.design:2110 rec.games.frp.misc:8604 rec.games.frp:25295
From: PLAY@RICEVM1.RICE.EDU (Rice Players)
Newsgroups: rec.games.design,rec.games.frp.misc,rec.games.frp
Subject: Re: Stars (Sources for 'real-world' data)
Date: 18 Nov 92 23:25:21 GMT
Organization: Rice University

In article <Af23KT200WBNQ7MZkP@andrew.cmu.edu>
William Henry Timmins <wt0b+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
 
>I'm interested in star information. Basically, a list of stars
>(particularly singular main sequence F G and K stars) in the vicinity,
>class/type/mass, and position.
>
>I'd like electronic info, please. I've had enormous difficulties trying
>to find something useful in the libraries (most list stars by
>brightness, so that FGK stars are rarely indicated)
>
>The population I am interested in, singular F/G/K V stars, should be
>obvious (for science fiction stellar systems)
 
2300 AD's star list (with extras listed in the Kafer Sourcebook, if you're
diligent) wasn't as bad as someone else indicated -- they did rename a few
stars, but the data was all taken from actual astronomical data tables (by
Gliese and Halliwell, as I recall).  You can get the same data from the
National Space Science Data Center (NSS-DC) -- check the sci.space and
sci.astro FAQ listings.  Unfortunately, that data (which can be made
available by FTP -- ask NSS-DC) doesn't contain star names, so you'll
either have to correlate with 2300 or some other listing, or presume your
colonists were eccentric and liked to rename stars....
 
Actually, I was able to 'salvage' some of the original star names by
checking in the Colonial Atlas.  The planet names AND the star names
are listed in the planet headers, and sometimes the original was allowed
to leak through....
 
The Ringworld game system, by Chaosium (try finding THAT one now!) has
some star info for Niven's Known Space setting, which is set in mostly
nearby 'real' stellar systems.
 
I have a book (the Starflight Handbook) with a table in the back with
2300-style data for the stars nearest Earth. (Is it all those within
20 ly, or just the closest 100?  Been too long since I've peeked....).
 
Good luck in your hunting!
 
Joseph L. Lockett
email replies to jlock00@ricevm1.rice.edu
From: sos@oz.plymouth.edu (Steffan O'Sullivan)
Subject: Re: net.rpg.slug: Action resolution
Organization: Plymouth State College - Plymouth, NH.
		<1992Nov21.021538.18281@oz.plymouth.edu>
		<1992Nov21.211143.6985@news.columbia.edu>
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 92 04:33:47 GMT

jhk6@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (John H Kim) writes:
>	It will take a little getting used to - wish there were some 
>simpler mechanism for generating a similar distribution of results. There 
>is something a little counter-intuitive to the comparison of the dice: 
>compare, see which is higher, and take the minimum. 

Yes, this occurred to me, too - but I think we can get around the
non-intuitiveness of it with the phrasing.  I think I'll change the
phrasing to something like:

If the difference is greater than one, remove the higher die.  The die
that is left will be either good or bad for the character, and the number
showing is how many steps in that direction . . . (smooth it out yet a
bit more - this is just off the cuff - but I think phrasing it so there
is only one die left makes it very easy to relate to).

-- 
  - Steffan O'Sullivan		         sos@oz.plymouth.edu
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
From: mathers@sibelius.trl.oz.au (Steven Mathers)
Subject: Re: Net.rpg - General comments
Reply-To: s.mathers@trl.oz.au
Organization: Telecom Research Labs, Melbourne, Australia
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 22:00:45 GMT

In article <1992Nov10.210617.13804@crd.ge.com>,  (Spike) writes:
|> Regarding the development of net.rpg, here are a few 
|> opinions:
|> 
|> 1) If you're going to do it, do it right. Why bother designing 
|> 		   yet another game to throw on the Same Old Shit (tm) pile?
|>      In order to justify expending the effort, why not plan to do 
|>      something *original* and different? You have the advantage
|>      over RPG companies in that you don't answer to the profit 
|>      margin. Make good use of it.

Exactly.  Dont fall for the trick of taking    an existing
system and just modifying bits of it.   Look at what you are trying to
accomplish, and then choose the simplest mechanics that will come
closest to fulfilling those aims.  Dont be scared to use a mechanic
that at first looks real weird just because it hasnt been used before.
If the mecahanic works well, people will get used to it real quick.
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
From: ketil@ii.uib.no (Ketil M. Malde)
Subject: Re: net.rpg: Character Stats (LONG)
Reply-To: ketil@ii.uib.no
Organization: student of numerical analysis at the University of Bergen, Norway
	<1992Nov18.172809.16951@klaava.Helsinki.FI>
Date: 19 Nov 92 17:14:58

>>>>> On 18 Nov 92 17:28:09 GMT, jliukkon@klaava.Helsinki.FI (Juha-Matti Liukkonen) said:
JM> leet@acsu.buffalo.edu (Brian D. Leet) writes:

Brian> Stats:
Brian> Physical:
Brian> Strength:
Brian> Power, Build, Speed
Brian> Toughness:
Brian> Endurance, Resistance, Pain-threshold
Brian> Dexterity:
Brian> Accuracy, Agility, Flexibility
Brian> Cognitive:
Brian> Reasoning:
Brian> Logic, Comprehension, Faith
Brian> Wisdom:
Brian> Intuition, Charisma, Perception
Brian> Knowledge:
Brian> Memory, Experience, Studiousness
Brian> Energy:
Brian> Magic:
Brian> Invocation, Alteration, Channeling
Brian> Psychic:
Brian> Equilibrium, Synchronicity, Essence
Brian> Innate:
Brian> Control, Force, Focus

JM> I'd vote this one up to the FAQ - how about it, magnus et al?

A few points:

o Is Build 'below' strength?  I'd put it the other way around, but..

o Same for agil/dex, agility should be the more general stat IMHO

o Faith is Reason? How about under wisdom?

o XP as a stat...well why not? :-)  Untraditional to say the least..

o 'Energy' appears to me to be a little arbitrary, and
  genre-dependent, and I don't at all see what the various substats
  are used for.  I'd like to have a stat system that describes a 
  'real-world' being, and let the magic system (or similar supernatual
  stuff) sora grow from that.
  "Synchronicity", "Essence" -- no way!

>Scores will fluctuate through life.

Yes Yes Yes Yes!

--
 = Ketil Malde                     In real life:  ketil@ii.uib.no =
 = Nuke the whales!                    Honk if you love unicorns! =
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
From: sos@oz.plymouth.edu (Steffan O'Sullivan)
Subject: Re: net.rpg.slug: Action resolution
Organization: Plymouth State College - Plymouth, NH.
	<4g31tkh@rpi.edu>
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 92 02:12:03 GMT

In article <4g31tkh@rpi.edu> cleggp@aix.rpi.edu (Paul Jason Clegg) writes:
[referring to me suggestion for different scales:]

>I think the latter is a Bad Idea.  If you want to keep it simple, keep the
>same scale & system, particularly if you want to make the game really, really
>generic.

There are only two ways to make a game truly generic that will
incorporate giants, superhumans, humans, and Wee Folk:

1) Use a logarithmic scale like TORG; or
2) Use "local" scales that only relate to each other loosely, at best.

TORG's got the best system if you want to go that route, but to be
honest, I don't care for it.  I actually prefer using local scales.  I
do this in one game I run, BTW, in GURPS with Bunnies and Humans:  the
rabbits make Strength roll based on their scale, the humans on theirs.
The bunnies need a good ST roll to open a window that the humans don't
even need to roll for.  It works, but only if the GM wills it to work.

>BTW:  Is net.rpg.slug a different thing than net.rpg?  I thought you had just
>been calling the same thing something different...  (Not that that is going
>to stop me from making comments! :)

Yep, different altogether.  A splinter group.  I didn't like the way
the discussion was going so I started my own group, which anyone is
welcome to join.  I don't read the net.rpg stuff anymore, and have no
idea where they've evolved too since I started SLUG.

-- 
  - Steffan O'Sullivan		         sos@oz.plymouth.edu
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
From: magnus@bark-fddi.ii.uib.no (Magnus Alvestad)
Subject: Re: Net.rpg: Lifepath
Followup-To: rec.games.design
Reply-To: magnus@ii.uib.no
Organization: UVBS -> SFK/T-DSA / SOPS - HOS / RNoN
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 92 18:01:01 GMT

>>>>> On 16 Nov 92 19:10:39 GMT, (Spike) said:

	Spike> method of generating a character. Perhaps I'm 
	Spike> misunderstanding, but it seems like you would
	Spike> have to have a phenomenal program to let you
	Spike> generate the wide range of characters I have 
	Spike> been known to play. Would it be possible to 

Yes, you might be right. We'll have to think of a way to create
general paths that can be translated into real paths using the
imagination and creativity of player+GM. 

Btw: Of course if you just want to make a character, then PA, then
write a background - you are perfectly welcome to do so! And probably
your character will have a better background.

The lifepath system I'm talking about will be 1) nice for players that
aren't able to think up exciting characters 2) intrigiuing for players
that want the challenge of playing a random character 3) a Good Thing
for NPC creation.

	Spike> produce a star pilot or a primitive peasant farmer?

Well, that shouldn't be too hard? Let me do some work on a prototype
for this some day so we get something real to work on.

	Spike> Traveller character gen system, it which it was
	Spike> possible to die while rolling a character! My 

:-()  My god!

	Spike> turning it into a finished product, you would be
	Spike> identifying the type of individual you wanted to 
	Spike> play, and creating someone to fill that role. Look

Yes, we'll just have to make a method that works that way. As soon as
the stat and skill mechanics are done, we can get to work at methods
like these.

	Spike> Hmm. I guess this turned into yet another "point
	Spike> alloc vs. random" argument. Apologies.

No - It's alright - as long as no one discusses combat at the moment,
I'm perfectly happy.. :-)

-Magnus
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
From: dalamb@qucis.queensu.ca (David Lamb)
Subject: Re: Net.rpg: Attributes
Organization: Computing & Information Science, Queen's University at Kingston
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 17:49:18 GMT

In article <1992Nov18.150149.10047@mailer.cc.fsu.edu> picl17@fsphy1.physics.fsu.edu writes:
>....  Number two, in talking to a
>psychologist friend about this, he pointed out that all of the
>categories of Intelligence are strongly correlated:  that is, that
>if you have a high score in one, you're very likely to have a high
>score in all of them.  Thus, it's more efficient to combine them
>all into a few scores and have advantages and disadvantages to give
>more specific kinds of intelligence.
>

It seems to me that a "skills tree" approach does this for you.  You
have root-level "numbers" (representing what people usually call
"stats" or "attributes"), with child "numbers") (representing what
people usually call "advantages", "disadvantages", and "skills").  The
children default to the value of the parent, perhaps +/- some offset.

This one mechanism serves a variety of purposes.
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
From: ketil@ii.uib.no (Ketil M. Malde)
Subject: Re: Make a net.rpg newsgroup!
Reply-To: ketil@ii.uib.no
Organization: student of numerical analysis at the University of Bergen, Norway
Date: 19 Nov 92 17:01:47

>>>>> On Thu, 19 Nov 92 00:15:54 GMT, magnus@bark-fddi.ii.uib.no (Magnus Alvestad) said:

>>>>> On 18 Nov 92 19:33:19 GMT, jkut@diku.dk (Jonatan Kutchinsky)
>>>>> said:

	Jonatan> Why don't you make a net.rpg newsgroup, where you can

	M> I'll get to work at creating a rec.games.netrpg - which
	M> will be used for design now and all kinds of discussions
	M> later. This will take some time though, so we'll use this
	M> group in the meantime. (We might not even get the new
	M> group, there's this vote you know.. :-)

I'm sorry, but I disclike the idea of creating another newsgroup just
top handle this, especially when this subject fits so well with the
charter for this group.

Opposed!

--
 = Ketil Malde                     In real life:  ketil@ii.uib.no =
 = Nuke the whales!                    Honk if you love unicorns! =
Newsgroups: rec.games.design