HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: schmunk@spacsun.rice.edu (Robert Schmunk)
Subject: Re:  Civil War Alternate Histories
Reply-To: schmunk@spacsun.rice.edu (Robert Schmunk)
Organization: Dept. of Space Physics, Rice University, Houston TX
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 01:41:51 GMT

In article <alien.01vv@acheron.amigans.gen.nz>, alien@acheron.amigans.gen.nz (Ross Smith) writes:
|> Read "Terraplane" by Jack Womack. I forget the exact details of the
|> alternate history involved, but it has a parallel 20th century in which
|> slavery still exists in parts of the US.

The premise of TERRAPLANE was that Lincoln was assassinated in 1861, and in
the 1930s some sort of slavery/apartheid exists in the United States. Not
very details were given there, but supposedly Womack's new ELVISSEY gives
more detail. I've heard that it reveals that as a result of the assassination,
the Civil War did not occur, but I'm not too sure about that. 

-- 
Robert B. Schmunk <schmunk@spacsun.rice.edu>
SPAC, Rice Univ, Box 1892, Houston, TX 77251 USA
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Loyalty was a great thing, but no lieutenants should be forced to choose
between their leader and a circus with elephants.
                                    --Neil Gaiman & Terry Pratchett, GOOD OMENS
From: mt90dac@brunel.ac.uk (Del Cotter)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Civil War Alternate Histories
Date: 16 Dec 92 20:10:21 GMT
Organization: Brunel University, West London, UK

In article <18481@mindlink.bc.ca> Crawford Kilian writes:
>I've always wanted to do an alternate Civil War that starts a few years early
>as a result of the Pig War--a dispute between the US and Britain over
>ownership of an island in Puget Sound.
>[scenario]
>And it would all, of course, be completely tongue in cheek. But it's probably
>one of those stories that will never see daylight, alas...

And you could call it 'The War of Pig's Ear'...

Sorry. :-)
-- 
 ',' ' ',','  |                                                  |  ',' ' ',','
   ', ,','    |       Del Cotter       mt90dac@brunel.ac.uk      |    ', ,','  
     ','      |                                                  |      ','
From: tmd@austin.lockheed.com (Tom Davis)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Greg Bear Blood Music (Spoilers)
Date: 18 Dec 92 12:45:14 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Lockheed Austin Division, 6800 Burleson Rd, Austin, TX 78744

In article <1992Dec9.150806.2528@galileo.physics.arizona.edu>
lnh@soliton.physics.arizona.edu (sometimes a Wombat) writes:

>...  Ever get the feeling that
>Stapledon did all the biggest themes of sf first?

Not quite -- check out "The Stars My Destination" by Alfred Bester.
The rest :-) of them are in there.

-- 
   Tom Davis                    Internet address: tmd@austin.lockheed.com
	"Imagine there's no countries; it isn't hard to do;
	 Nothing to kill or die for, and no religion, too."
   [Disclaimer: I speak for nobody but me - and sometimes not even that.]
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: O2NY000 <O2NY@UNB.CA>
Subject: Re: Heinlein and "wimmin"
Organization: The University of New Brunswick
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 17:47:31 GMT

[everything deleted]

Gee I didn't think everyone would take my comments so critically.
I didn't say that procreating was the only purpose, I just said I
feel it is the most important purpose. But in saying that I mean
as a society. You have to have people in a society procreating.
As for technological advancement being inevitable, I agree that the
proof is impossible. You can can't go back in time, kill Einstien,
and see if someone else discovered it. However, you can sight several
examples of two people making the same discoveries at about the same
time independantly. Example the Telsa-Edison fight. From my
understanding the Tesla family is fighting for some royalties that
the Edison family is getting, because Telsa had the idea first, but
Edison refined and patend it first. However, don't quote me, as I
can't remember the do-hicky they are fighting over, or ever if it was
Edison (perhaps it was Bell). Anyway it WAS Telsa and some-one.
The fact remains that independant discoveries on the same subject are
relatively common, these days (mainly because things change so fast
that no-one knows what anyone else is doing). However, this is just
an example and as mentioned know proof can be made of it; and I am
just presenting an idea, not a fact.

David Szemerda
the cursed SF fan
From: gjr@st-andrews.ac.uk (Graham James Reilly)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Ending of Tigana question *spoilers*
Keywords: tigana
Date: 17 Dec 92 12:44:00 GMT
Organization: St. Andrews University, Scotland.

In article <1992Dec16.130217.16681@alf.uib.no> paulo@ii.uib.no (Paul Olav Tvete stipendiat) writes:
>In article <15DEC199217385923@nssdca.gsfc.nasa.gov>, kayser@nssdca.gsfc.nasa.gov (Susan E. Kayser NSSDC/STX (301)513-1673) writes:
>
>|> The verse you want is right at the end of the section "Dianora" (sp?). It goes 
>|> (from memory):
>|>      One man sees a riselka
>|>      His life forks there.
>|>      Two men see a riselka
>|>      One of them dies.
>|>      Three men see a riselka
>|>      One is blessed, one forks, one will die.
>|>      (For women, one is blessed, one sees her life clearly, one has a child.)
>|> 
>|> So--which of the three (Sandre, Baerd, Devin) gets which part of the prophecy?
>
>I wondered a bit about that myself. Presumably, Sandre dies -- being very old.
>I would think that Bard is blessed and Devin's life forks, since it was emphasized that
>Devin had a choice between several possibilities.
>
>|> 
>|> Susan Kayser	
>
>-- 
>Paul Olav Tvete;  paulo@ii.uib.no  ---- Ein # kan'kje vara evig, veit du. ----

I think perhaps the point is we don't know.  That's the end of the book, but the
story goes on.  I was deleriously happy to discover that his next novel ( A Song
For Arbonne I think )is NOT a sequel to Tigana.  At last a fantasy writer has had
the guts to finish a book where it should finish, rather than spinning things on
endlessly to wrap up all the trailing plots just because 'fantasy books have to
be in trilogies/quintets/septets.'  I hope the rest of the genre sits up and
takes note.


Dylan
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: ecl@cbnewsj.cb.att.com (Evelyn C. Leeper)
Subject: Re: Auto-buy lists
Organization: AT&T
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 18:09:52 GMT
Keywords: tigana

In article <1992Dec18.015418.23388@galileo.cc.rochester.edu> colin@callisto.pas.rochester.edu (Colin Roald) writes:
> I'm suddenly curious--what authors are on other people's "auto-buy" lists?
> Meaning that if you see one of their books and you don't have yet and the 
> money is in your pocket, you buy it--no further questions asked.

I suspect most people could guess this list from my reviews, but here goes:

Jorge Luis Borges (not many new ones, but occasionally older stuff floats by)
Pat Cadigan
Karen Joy Fowler (new addition to my list)
Nancy Kress
Pat Murphy
Kim Stanley Robinson
Olaf Stapledon (not many new ones, but some out-of-print I'm looking for)
Connie Willis

This list, of course, changes with time.

Evelyn C. Leeper  |  +1 908 957 2070  |  att!mtgzy!ecl or  ecl@mtgzy.att.com
--
"God does not play dice with the universe."  --Albert Einstein
"Albert, stop telling God what to do."  --Niels Bohr
From: sbishop@desire.wright.edu
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Heinlein purchase?
Date: 12 Dec 92 10:23:59 EST
Organization:  Wright State University 

In article <burt.724050813@aupair.cs.athabascau.ca>, burt@aupair.cs.athabascau.ca (Burt Voorhees) writes:
> jahb@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (JENNIFER A. HEISE) writes:
> 
>>>In article <j7=2l1m@rpi.edu> kasprj@rpi.edu writes:
>>>>|> Friday is female, extremely competent, and very much her own boss in most
>>>>|> ways...
>>>> Yes. And what does she ultimately end up doing with her life? Settling down
> ,
>>>>getting married and making babies. She sees this as the culmination of her
>>>>life; it's implied that this is what she _really_ wanted to do all along.
>>>>It's a bit of a slap in the face to show a strong, self-sufficient woman and
>>>>then turn her into a housewife.
> 
> You might note that one of the main themes
> in the book was Friday's search for a family, for
> somewhere that she felt she belonged.  A big
> issue for an artificial person!!!  She did not
> just "settle down" she became involved, and
> one would presume took quite a vocal interest
> in her community.  What she wanted was to
> belong (and was decieved by her first "family"
> who bounced her unceramoneously on finding
> that she was artificial.)  The book, on that
> theme, is about the human need to belong.
> 

To the extent of marrying one of her rapists?  Give me a break!


>>To the people who do not read the book all the way through--
>>Friday did NOT end up making babies. She popped out ONE, the one implanted in
>>her. Her infertility was never reversed, though she said she thought doing it
>>like a cat wasn't so bad-- but she was just as glad she couldn't.
> 
> Yea, could end up littering up the landscape...
> 
> bv
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: rcj@engin.umich.edu (R o d Johnson)
Subject: Re: Literary SF
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 92 16:30:56 EST
Organization: Lost Tribes of Gazebo

In article <bjones-141292111906@130.13.26.216> bjones@denitqm.uswest.com (Brent Jones) writes:
>Vladimir Nabokov wrote at least two science fiction short stories-"Lance"
>and "Time and Ebb." These are in his collection _Nabokov's Dozen_.

Not to mention "Ada," which is one of the great alternate-world
novels, in my opinion.  And we might as well mention "Pale Fire" as a
fantasy novel; I think it belongs in a tradition that might
comfortably accommodate Gene Wolfe, Richard Grant, John Crowley, Italo
Calvino and Stanislaw Lem, among others.

>It don't get more "literary" than Nabokov.

Richard Grant has written a lovely essay advocating a kind of
Nabokovian approach to SF, published various places, including one of
those Nebula Award Winner Thingies books a year or two back.  One of
the best critical pieces on SF I've read in a long time.

-- 
       Rod Johnson  *  rcj@caen.engin.umich.edu  *  (313) 764-3103
    
                "What I do doesn't happen in a warehouse"
                                          --Jim Dickinson
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: marcy@sqwest.wimsey.bc.ca (Marcy Thompson)
Subject: Re: Child of an Ancient City?
Organization: SoftQuad Inc., Surrey, British Columbia, CANADA
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 01:10:01 GMT

In a recent rec.arts.sf.written article, John Hawkinson wrote:

>I was wondering if anybody knew anything about
>_Child_Of_An_Ancient_City by Tad Williams and <somebody-
>whose-name-I-forget-right-now>? (i.e. what it's about?)

Tad Williams and Nina Kiriki Hoffman.

The woman in Escape Books (the SF-Fantasy-Horror-Mystery bookstore
in Eugene, Oregon) told me it was "a GREAT book". I didn't buy
it because it has vampires in it, and I'm not a vampire fan, by
any means. 

>It's my recollection it was supposed to be (and probably was/is)
>out last month...

It was a hardcover book. Because it is being published as a YA novel,
it is highly possible that it will *never* be issued in paperback.
(Again, wisdom of the store clerk; this particular store has very
knowledgeable staff, FWIW.)

Marcy
-- 

Marcy Thompson		
  SoftQuad (West)			
    marcy@sqwest.wimsey.bc.ca (preferred) or marcy@sq.com
Xref: sparky rec.arts.sf.written:16395 soc.history:10238
From: frankt@cwi.nl (Frank Teusink)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,soc.history
Subject: Re: Civil War Alternate Histories
Date: 18 Dec 92 11:28:16 GMT
Followup-To: rec.arts.sf.written

nancy@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Nancy Lebovitz) writes:

>I've heard arguments that slavery for agriculture became uneconomical--
>I've never heard any sort of reason why keeping slaves as personal
>servants is uneconomical, but it's obvious that such slavery doesn't
>exist in industrialized countries (except for some scams involving
>illegal immigrants). Any theories about why?

Just a guess:
Maybe working in the house requires some kind of commitment (not dropping
vases, etc.). A house-slave seems to be better off than a field-slave, so
the house-slaves do their job, because otherwise they are degraded to 
field work. If there are no field-slaves, this kind of degradation doesn't
exist anymore, and the commitment gets lost. 

>Nancy Lebovitz
>calligraphic button catalogue available by email  (170K)
>nancy@genie.slhs.udel.edu

Frank Teusink
From: JXA01@albnydh2.BITNET
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Motorcycle Science Fiction
Date: 18 Dec 92 13:51:17 GMT


Could someone please help? I am looking for science fiction stories that
have motorcycling as a main theme or component of the story. Either post
responses or E-mail me directly at JXA01@ALBNYDH2.BITNET. Thank you!
From: cc697@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Eric Oppen)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Anarchy in S.F.
Date: 20 Dec 92 07:20:11 GMT
Reply-To: cc697@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Eric Oppen)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, rjk@world.std.com (robert j kolker) says:

>I can think of two SF novels that have anarchy or anarchic societies as a
>theme and context. They are:
>
>	THE DISPOSSESSED by U.LaGuin
>	INHERIT THE STARS by Hogan
>
>Can you good folks think of any others?
>
>Conan the Libertarian

The entire "North American Confederacy" series, by L. Neil Smith, covers an
anarchocapitalist society, andits interaction with our own and some other
more or less authoritarian governmental structures in the course of
interstellar exploration.  They are:
The Probability Broach
The Nagasaki Vector
The Venus Belt
Tom Paine Maru
Their Majesties' Bucketeers (extremely weak, IMHO)
The Gallatin Divergence (also very weak, and inconsistent with the previous
books)
And there is now the MacBear/Lysandra Heptology, which covers much of the
same ground.  Think of Heinlein juveniles---heavily watered down.

Also, there's _Savior of Fire._  It was advertised in REASON Magazine
recently.
-- 
It is caffeine alone that sets my mind in motion.  It is through beans of
java that thoughts acquire speed, that hands acquire shakes, that shakes
become a warning...I am...IN CONTROL...OF MY ADDICTION!
---From the Minicon Graffiti Wall, 1989(?)
Xref: sparky rec.arts.sf.written:16254 rec.arts.sf.fandom:1278
From: cozzlab@garnet.berkeley.edu ()
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Dragonlance
Date: 11 Dec 1992 23:16:44 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: garnet.berkeley.edu

In article <1992Dec11.144139.1@hamp.hampshire.edu> mgrossman@hamp.hampshire.edu writes:

>It seems like just about all the newer swords and sorcery authors are writing
>stories more in the Dragonlance/fluff mode instead of taking the time and
>effort to be creative.  An overwelming amount of fantasy written today is
>cheap garbage, and it makes me sad.  If they can't write anything good, why do
>they write so much?

To make money, of course.  Why else?

I remember the time Astrid Anderson (daughter of Poul), being in seventh
grade or so, had to write a book review including the answer to the
teacher's question, "Why did the author write this book?"

She went to her father, showed him the teacher's guidelines, and said,
"I KNOW why he wrote it.  But what am I going to tell the teacher?"

"No man but a blockhead, Sir, ever wrote except for money."
				 --Dr. Samuel Johnson

Oh, did you want aesthetic values or something?  Sorry; wrong profession.
From: goodin@fraser.sfu.ca (Charles Frederick Goodin)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Ending of Tigana question *spoilers*
Keywords: tigana
Date: 16 Dec 92 19:30:55 GMT
Organization: Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., Canada

krogers@javelin.sim.es.com (K. Rogers) writes:

>I just finished Tigana.  I'd never heard of Kay before as I'm only an
>infrequent sf or f reader.  Anyway, I picked it up on a whim the other
>day.  It was really good - far above the norm IMO.

>I have a question about the very last paragraph of the book.  Sandre,
>Baerd and Devin see a Riselka (sp?) at the same time.  I knew three
>men meeting one at the same time had some significance but I forgot
>what it was and couldn't find it again in the book.  It went something
>like: "One will find his path, one will die,...".  Can anyone tell me
>what three things happen?

>Also, are Kay's other works as good?  I'm not much of a sophisticated
>reader but I really thought Tigana was a superior book.  Your milage
>will likely vary...
	Try his "Fionavar Tapestry"(sp?) (the longest road is the first one, I
think)  I thought it was a lot better than Tigana.  I find his stuff hard to
get into, I'm usually bored for the first 2 or 3 chapters, but it is all worth
it in the end.  Very powerful stuff
>-- 
>Keith Rogers
>krogers@javelin.sim.es.co

Upchuk McNuggets
goodin@fraser.sfu.ca
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: duzan@tweety.cis.udel.edu (Gary D. Duzan)
Subject: Re: The Wheel of Time: Prophecies and Portents
Organization: Your Organization Could Be Here!
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 12:08:47 GMT

In article <1992Dec17.162751.5672@telesciences.com> srscnslt@telesciences.com (SRS Consultant) writes:
=>
=>
=>	Hmmm.  Just thought of this...
=>
=>	With all the discussion about how Logain might yet play some part in
=>	the story, and how he may somehow become ungentled...
=>
=>	What if Rand really _isn't_ the Dragon Reborn?  What if the Aes Sedai
=>	actully screwed up, and Logain is the one who should be considered the
=>	DR, while Rand is just a bit player?
=>
   I really don't think this is likely. He is fulfilling far too much of
the prophecy not to be the Dragon Reborn. Taking Callendor, just for
starters, should pretty much confirm it.

                                        Gary Duzan
                                        Time  Lord
                                    Third Regeneration
                                         Aielman



-- 
                             duzan@cis.udel.edu
   _o_                       ------------------                         _o_
 [|o o|]       Virtual Reality? No thanks, I've already got one.      [|o o|]
  |_O_|       Disclaimer: I have no idea what I am talking about.      |_O_|
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: charles@zip.eecs.umich.edu (Charles Jacob Cohen)
Subject: Re: Heinlein
Organization: University of Michigan EECS Dept., Ann Arbor, MI
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 18:15:20 GMT

[various stuff against Heinlein's writting deleted]

Data:  Captain, I am detecting a strange anomaly on the ships sensors.

Picard:  What do you make of it?

Data:  Unsure, Captain.  It is heading directly towards us at high warp
speeds.  I am attempting to identify it.

Riker:  Shall we go to yellow alert?

Picard:  Make it so.

Troi:  I sense much hatred, confusion, and spitefulness.

Data:  The anomaly will reach us in 27.3 seconds...it is increasing velocity.

Riker:  Evasive maneuvers!  Raise shields!

Picard:  Data, have you identified the object yet?

Troi [sitting down, holding her head]:  Oh, the grief, the hurt feelings...

Data:  Yes, I have Captain.  It looks like another Heinlein Flame War.

Picard [turning pale]:  We were almost massacred at Wolf 359 the last time
we encountered a Heinlein Flame War.  Geordie, we need more power to warp.

Data:  Evasive maneuvers ineffective.  The Heinlein Flame War will reach us
in 4.9 seconds.

Riker:  All hands, prepare for collision!!!!!

[not to be continued...]

[yes, it was done before, but I had to upgrade the generation]


-- 
"I do not feel obliged to believe that same God who endowed us with sense,
reason, and intellect, had intended for us to forgo their use." - Galileo
"I'm an engineer, not a dictionary!" - Me
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: jean@noao.edu (Jean Goodrich)
Subject: Re: Books by Jean Lorrah
Organization: National Optical Astronomy Observatories, Tucson, AZ, USA
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 19:52:13 GMT


I am currently reading a book by Jean Lorrah, entitled
_Empress Unborn_. From the back of the cover, the plot
sounded interesting, and the blurb on the inside cover
was equally intriguing. However, so far I am finding it
rather disjoint. Scenes don't pull together the story
or mood enough to overcome the jumps (or spurts) in
time. I have also not yet developed any sympathy or
rapport with any characters.

This is one of her own books, a "book of the Savage Empire".
It is meant to stand alone, and yet I feel that I've
missed an awful lot (which might account for my criticism 
above) by not reading anything previous to this one.

With this criticism said and done, I will say that her 
"world" has an altogether different feel to it than any 
in books I've read before. Also, though I don't relate to the 
characters, I still have found them interesting. The story 
behind the plot is very intriguing, and I am still only
halfway through. This book won't become an all-time 
favorite, but it is recommendable, depending upon what
you might be looking for.

jean


Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: rcj@engin.umich.edu (R o d Johnson)
Subject: Re: Eco-Catastrophe Novel Request
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 92 13:23:11 EST
Organization: Lost Tribes of Gazebo

In article <1992Dec17.171113.14926@pbhyc.PacBell.COM> djdaneh@PacBell.COM (Dan'l DanehyOakes) writes:

>If it's a class in literature, or SF-as-literature, and you need an example of
>an eco-catastrophe novel (why?) you can't beat the Ballards.  My personal choice
>would be THE DROWNED WORLD, but you need to know that it's one of a set of 
>destroy-the-world-by-earth-air-fire-and-water novels (	THE CRYSTAL WORLD; THE 
>WIND FROM NOWHERE; THE BURNING WORLD; THE DROWNED WORLD ) which deal with the 
>seductive aspects of catastrophe.

Is "The Burning World" an alternate title for the book I've always
known as "The Drought"?  Which came first?


-- 
       Rod Johnson  *  rcj@caen.engin.umich.edu  *  (313) 764-3103
    
                "What I do doesn't happen in a warehouse"
                                          --Jim Dickinson
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: O2NY000 <O2NY@UNB.CA>
Subject: RE: Anyone like to comment on Garden of Rama?
Organization: The University of New Brunswick
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 17:09:56 GMT

In article <Bz6xxG.F3F@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> hartlemp@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Michael P Hartley) writes:
>[stuff deleted]
>   Michael P Hartley                 #           |  Physicist by Choice
>                      ****           |           |  Mathematician by Accident
>   Purdue University (====()---------\---------| |  CS student by Mistake
>                      ****           |           |  Brilliant by act of God
>   hartlemp@mentor.cc.purdue.edu     -           |  Poor by act of Congress
>
I was the one who earlier wrote wondering if the final book in the
series would ever be finished (it should have been out already). Now
perhaps you can see why this is so important. I think ending the book
like that was a cheap trick, some conclusion should have been made
somewhere. I wonder who's idea it was (however, I don't recall A.C.
ending anything like that until you know who came along).

Contrairy, to other opinions, I enjoyed the first book 'Rama', and
utterly despised the second. I mean come on, the absolute prime
choice of all humanity, the best we have to offer, and they act like
soap-opera characters in space."She's sleeping with so-an-so." Greed,
childishness, and a totally unprofessional attitude throughout the
book. Didn't anyone do a check on the people before they were accepted
as the cream of the crop? Do you think space-shuttle astronauts bicker
about television rights in space?

Fortunately, I tried the third book anyway. I thoughly enjoyed it,
except of course for the end. And this time, as a large number of
people sent to the ship were convicts, I could expect the petty
bickering and greed and powerhunger. It is as you would a bunch of
average people to act. But now I am doomed to return to the bookstore
every week when to new shipment arrives, and plead to the sales clerk,
" Is it here, yet?". Yes, all who have not read this book, do not
do so until the final book is on the shelf. Heed this warning, or you
too will fall victim to the trap as so many before you have.

David Szemerda.
>.

Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written