HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
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Date:         Sat, 15 Aug 1992 03:32:19 --500
From:         "David E. Schwalm" <IACDES@ASUACAD.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: no duking

 *** Reply to note of 08/14/92 14:08
 Nowadays, big state universities are trying to offer everyone a liberal arts
 based education, sometimes with a professional focus. This is not what a lot of
 students want, or at least they don't think they do. Employers have come to
 require "a college degree" often without a clear concept of what that means or
 why they want it. Thus "a college degree" from a school that gives two years'
 credit for life experience and allows for the completion of the degree on a
 seriesof Saturday afternoons can serve the same turn as a BA from Princeton.
 We've got to stop trying to make one degree serve a vast range of purposes. I
 think the liberal arts based degree is in most students' best interests, but
 many students and their employers aren't so sure. State U's probably need to
 offer a range of certifications, each finite and self contained, but we should
 never cut willing students off from "the full treatment" if they decide that
 want it at some later date.

 -- David E. Schwalm, Assoc. Provost for Academic Programs
 ___Arizona State University West
 ___4701 West Thunderbird Rd.
 ___Phoenix, AZ 85069-7100___(602) 543-4500
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Date:         Mon, 17 Aug 1992 15:06:00 EST
From:         BURT@BRANDEIS.BITNET
Subject:      Re: What we're allowed to know

English was "what I was allowed to know." (I was a science major.)
John B
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Date:         Mon, 17 Aug 1992 13:57:00 EST
From:         BECKY RICKLY <00RJRICKLY@BSUVAX1.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Behaving like college students

David, what worries me is that students who might select "education
lite" would eventually be the ones who WOULD have bloomed (no
pun on Alan) with a full-course meal.  And I'm all for substitutions,
as long as dietary needs are eventually met.

Becky (I'm getting hungry!)
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Date:         Sun, 16 Aug 1992 22:17:30 --500
From:         "David E. Schwalm" <IACDES@ASUACAD.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Behaving like college students

 *** Reply to note of 08/16/92 14:28
 Becky, I would not call the students you describe problematic because they
 seem to meet the main criterion I have for "behaving like college students":
 they engage in the course. They may not like it or be interested (initially),
 but they fool you. Ok, so fool me. Pretend to be interested. Also, I want to
 be sure to make provision for students who think they want very narrow
 training but suddenly find themselves intellectually awakened generally by the
 ambience of the college or university setting. I think we all want what is
 best for students, and generally I think we know better what this might be
 than the average student does. I think most of us believe in the practical and
 spiritual/intellectual value of a liberal arts education. We know that
 students who opt for narrow training may find themselves trained for jobs that
 cease to exist while they train and they will find themselves without the
 general education that is necessary for surviving economically in a changing
 world. Many of us really believe this. But many of our students don't, and
 only life experience will persuade them. These students will be better served
 if we are there for them when they are ready for us. I would not turn the
 whole university into a demand driven cafeteria. Too many different kinds of
 jello. I would rather offer a menu of different set meals (no substitutions,
 sort of). If you opt for the liberal arts education, then you eat what's put
 in front of you (you can choose the dressing, fries or baked, but not the
 controlling concept). But you can also opt for other meals, including
 education lite. Better drop this metaphor. But public education should also be
 organized so that no choice is fatal, so that a student can always, perhaps at
 some cost, opt for the full treatment. I find it interesting that, in one of
 our more right wing states (AZ), public postsecondary education is set up so
 that you can never screw up so badly that you can't get a college degree. I
 hope all those negatives worked out.

 -- David E. Schwalm, Assoc. Provost for Academic Programs
 ___Arizona State University West
 ___4701 West Thunderbird Rd.
 ___Phoenix, AZ 85069-7100___(602) 543-4500
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Date:         Fri, 14 Aug 1992 00:00:00 EST
From:         "Christopher T. Loschen" <LOSCHEN@BRANDEIS.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Phenomenology and _The Waves_

I hope you enjoy taking another look at _The Waves_--what a pleasure!  I will
try to reciprocate by looking more deeply at _GR_.  I actually just finished
it for the first time a few months ago as I was reading for my orals.  I'm
interested to take another look at the passage you cite.

I'd like to respond to your message in greater detail, but they're about to
turn off the electricity at Brandeis for the next few days--they seem
desperate to save money at the moment.  Well, actually, I assume they are
doing something or other with the power plant.  I'll try to respond early
next week after I've taken a look at the scene you mention.

I'm enjoying bouncing ideas around with you.  I'll be back in touch soon.

Yours, Chris Loschen
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Date:         Thu, 20 Aug 1992 15:13:25 -0400
From:         eng_allen@EMUNIX.EMICH.EDU
Subject:      favorite/unfavorite fonts

Bob,

I, too, am interested in your results, but I'm also suspicious of what they
might really tell us.  What sorts of choices do most students have?  If
several instructors like Times because it's a serif font, as Deborah does, does
that mean Times is best for students to use if they want to keep their teachers
happly, or simply that not many students have the option of
using Palatino (one that I like), so it doesn't get many votes. And then
there's Helvetica.  Does a negative vote mean Helvetica is bad for all uses or
only for large blocks of text?  And how does that relate to Helvetica Heavy
or Narrow?  And, of course, there are hundreds more that most of us seldom see
but might like if we did.

Geez,this sounds pretty nitpicky, but the questions comes across as more
complicated to me than it may seem a first blush.  At any rate, I hope you'll
keep us posted.

Nancy Allen
eng_allen@emunix.emich.edu
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Date:         Mon, 17 Aug 1992 14:04:00 EST
From:         BECKY RICKLY <00RJRICKLY@BSUVAX1.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: (Fwd: *C&CD*) What we're allowed to know (5)

Robert,
I was very lucky as an undergrad--took part in an experimental
secondary education program under Don Bateman in which we were
REQUIRED to take one course outside our major and/or opt
for some sort of practical experience which could translate
to college credit each quarter.  (The program was disbanded
after the inital group of which I was a part graduated; too
difficult to count up all those unique credits...)  So I got
to take some grad courses in Anthropology and Folklore, some
telecommunications courses, and tutor adults at Columbus's
"right to read" program.  Unfortunately, my grad programs
weren't as flexible.  I would have liked to have taken
courses in physics, music theory, more anthropology and
folklore, women's studies, and, if such a thing existed,
some courses in research design and implementation, esp. in
ref. to ethnomethodology.  Do such courses exist?
Becky
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Date:         Sun, 16 Aug 1992 16:27:00 EST
From:         BECKY RICKLY <00RJRICKLY@BSUVAX1.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Behaving like college students

David, you sum your position up nicely--and while I agree with much of
what you say (I'll stick with Adrienne Rich's concept of "college
people" taking an active part in/responsibility for their education
[or teaching, for that matter]), I'm uncomfortable with the labels.
I have a propensity to label those students who tread water while
others foot the bill as "problematic," but this comes from my
own biased experience as a working undergrad/grad.  You mention
non-trad.s who don't wish to be bothered with courses outside
their major;  I, too, have had some of these, some who get
positively giddy during an interchange session, some who
light up when revising something that dredges up some past
experience they thought they'd forgotten, some who work like
fiends even though they don't care, thus providing one hell
of an example for others...would you still call these
students "problematic?"  I'm afraid that if we gave all
the students who wanted it special vocational type training,
a lot of them would lose out--as would we.

Just a thought.

Becky
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Date:         Fri, 21 Aug 1992 09:22:08 -0400
From:         eng_allen@EMUNIX.EMICH.EDU
Subject:      fonts

Good point about the samples handed out, Tom.  Maybe the students
don't even like the fonts they're using.  They're just trying to
follow officially approved examples.

Nancy Allen
eng_allen@emunix.emich.edu
From: MROSE01@UKCC.UKY.EDU (mer)
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Subject: Re: Social Interaction in Computer Classrooms
Date: 20 Aug 92 13:54:20 GMT
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              20 Aug 1992 08:41:01 EST from <jporter@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>

Jim and Eric:

    I think that the information/noise model of communication in the analysis
    of f2f vrs other forms becomes unfortunate if the binary valorizes
    information as against noise (as must occur in *any* binary).

    That is why post-structural approaches to communication theory/rhetorical
    theory are so much more sophisticated (never mind interesting): they
    insist that any communication is always/already noisy, and that any form
    of communication that approaches purity must nevertheless also symptomize
    domination of the spoken to by the speaker.

    Noise may be the initial condition for more important information than
    that information dependent upon keeping noise to a minimum.

    Behind these PS approaches, one might look at:
    Derrida's Le Poste Carde;  Paulson's The Noise of Culture etc.


                                                                mer
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Date:         Thu, 20 Aug 1992 07:33:47 CDT
From:         Eric Crump <C509379@MIZZOU1.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Social Interaction in Computer Classrooms

On Thu, 20 Aug 1992 08:15:00 EDT Thomas Reber @ English Department said:
>... a senior colleague
>who takes an expressivist view of composition (he loves
>creative writing) immediately said that he would
>never eliminate face-to-face interaction. Of course, I
>was never intending to do such a thing...

>... squelch my students' face-to-face
>social interaction--that would be impossible
>even if I tried, I think.  But I need a good,
>straightforward response to my senior colleague.
>Does anyone have a suggestion?
>
My immediate response won't win you any points with your
colleague, I'm afraid: I think folks tend to be too
protective of face-to-face communication. As you say,
you probably couldn't squelch it if you wanted to
(although you *could* create an environment that was
hostile to it, but obviously you aren't doing that)
and if you *could* squelch it, I would wonder how
essential it was to your students in the first place.
Once they begin interacting on the network, they
might find that F2F isn't critical to filling their
social needs, at least not the extent they once assumed.

F2F, as I see it, is an information-rich communication
situation that humans gravitate toward when they have
a chance mainly because in the history of language, that
was long the only viable situation in which communication
could occur. It still has a place in our hearts and always
will, I suppose.

But as we become accustomed to new communication technologies
they chisel away at the primacy of F2F oral interaction.
CMC, especially, with its convergence of oral and literate
characteristics, is more interactive and more satisfying
than say, print. You might tell your colleague that one reason
F2F is necessary in traditional classes is the lack of
interactivity otherwise available. Students wouldn't
feel comfortable writing each other letters and sending
them snail mail, but their social needs will be better met
on the network.

--Eric Crump
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Date:         Mon, 17 Aug 1992 21:08:19 CDT
From:         Eric Crump <C509379@MIZZOU1.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: misplaced the deed to the Idea

On Mon, 17 Aug 1992 21:44:42 -0500 <ENGMYLES@UBVMS> said:
>Eric:  what kinds of changes in other people do you think we can take
>responsibility for?  and how can we tell that change has taken place?
>there are changes we know we canmake in kids--
>changes in behavior; sometimes we can change their interests or encourage
>them or discourage them; but we don't set out to produce broad scale change.
>What do you change in one semester?  In the kids, that is.

Good questions, Myles (you keep coming up with them). For the first,
I would say that the responsibility for change does not hang on
anyone individually, (I used to believe that was so and can't
hardly believe what I'm about to say) but is more like an
agreement between those involved in the learning situation.
In other words, students and teachers are somehow mutually
dependent on each other to create the spark of change. Or,
as I heard a local professor say today: "You, as the
instructor, are the opportunity to learn. Students must
seize that opportunity." Teachers and students each have
responsibility for change. Maybe part of the teacher's job
is to somehow help the student become aware of that
relationship.

Whether change (of whatever sort, good or ill) is measurable
and verifiable is pretty hard to say. I'd guess not very.
Some students will take longer than others to internalize
whatever it was that happened to them in your class. Your
C students might be walking down the street a few years hence
and have a blinding epiphany, quit their job and become
literature scholars. It could happen. You may have the
satisfaction of seeing evidence of the change, but that
doesn't mean your presence in that student's life didn't
play an important role. Eh?

--Eric Crump
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Date:         Mon, 17 Aug 1992 23:02:22 --500
From:         "David E. Schwalm" <IACDES@ASUACAD.BITNET>
Subject:      typing

 *** Reply to note of 08/17/92 17:30
 I didn't take your mother's advice, Karla, and now I don't have the self
 discipline to learn to type properly. I don't remember ANYTHING from high
 school. Karen and I gave your mother's advice (we like to think of it as our
 advice) to our children, and both a quite capable typists. Mothers, don't let
 your babies grow up to be non-typists.

 -- David E. Schwalm, Assoc. Provost for Academic Programs
 ___Arizona State University West
 ___4701 West Thunderbird Rd.
 ___Phoenix, AZ 85069-7100___(602) 543-4500
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Organization: Samford University Writing Programs
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Date:         Thu, 20 Aug 1992 16:55:20 CDT
From:         "David H. Roberts" <DHROBERT@SAMFORD.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: tech writing communication

I have forwarded your message to David Dedo, who teaches tech and business
writing here.

   David H. Roberts
   Director of University Writing Programs
   Samford University
   Birmingham, AL 35229-2207 USA
   Voice: (205) 870-2964; Fax: (205) 870-2384
   Bitnet:  DHROBERT@SAMFORD
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Date:         Wed, 19 Aug 1992 12:39:00 EST
From:         00DJFITZSTEP@BSUVAX1.BITNET
Subject:      Re: misplaced the deed to the Idea

With all of this talk about what the purpose of a writing course is
and what the students are going to learn, I'm forced to consider
what it is that _I_ learn during the semester.  I like to set up
the objectives of the course so that I learn something and so do
the students.  I figure, if I'm not learning something new, it's
harder for me to be enthusiastic about the students' learning.
Does that make sense?  I like to center the classes I teach
around something I'm still coming to terms with myself.  I'd hate
to go into a semester knowing what it is that the course is going
to accomplish--I begin with the broad generalization that I'm
going to do what I can to increase the literacy of the whole class
(myself included), to give us all a better grip on how to deal with
college, with writing, with culture, with the economy, with the
whole world (if at all possible).  I like to share what it is that
I'm learning, show the students that I'm learning, and hope that my
enthusiasm rubs off on them to some extent.

The final courses I taught while working on my master's degree were
centered around the critical theories I needed to understand in order
to write my thesis.  I learned an incredible amount in the negotiation
of the new knowledge with the classes--they taught me how to say what
it was that I knew.  And the quality of the writing that came out of
the classes I taught that semester is the standard by which I still
measure my own success as a writing teacher.

Excuse the utopiamism if you have to, grant it to me if you will.
Suggestions and comments welcome. . . . . .

Dan Fitzstephens @ Ball State

"Show me someone who's not a parasite
And I'll go out and say a prayer for him."--Bob Dylan
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Date:         Wed, 12 Aug 1992 09:42:55 HST
From:         James Shimabukuro <JAMESS@UHUNIX.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Need resources

John K.:
   I'm very interested in your CMWC (computer-mediated writing class).  Is
there sone way I could participate as a browser?  I'd like to see, firsthand,
the daily/weekly progression.  I realize I'm asking a lot.

Jim Shimabukuro
Language Arts (freshman and advanced composition)
Kapiolani Community College
4303 Diamond Head Road
Honolulu, HI 96816

jamess@uhunix.uhcc.hawaii.edu
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Date:         Sat, 15 Aug 1992 03:04:25 --500
From:         Goodold Dayze <IACDES@ASUACAD.BITNET>
Subject:      no duking

 *** Reply to note of 08/13/92 19:21
 It's not so much a yearning for the good old days when college was for college
 people. Rather, it's a wild fantasy that we should expect whoever shows up at
 college nowadays to behave like college people--faculty and students alike. I
 have no interest in excluding people from college. Open admissions was one of
 the better things that happened in higher education. The problem was that
 universities tried to pretend that it didn't make any difference in how they
 went about their business (e.g. head-in-the-sand attitudes toward basic
 writing, reluctance to support writing centers, summer bridge programs).

 -- David E. Schwalm, Assoc. Provost for Academic Programs
 ___Arizona State University West
 ___4701 West Thunderbird Rd.
 ___Phoenix, AZ 85069-7100___(602) 543-4500
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Date:         Fri, 21 Aug 1992 00:13:06 --500
From:         "David E. Schwalm" <IACDES@ASUACAD.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Social Interaction in Computer Classrooms

 *** Reply to note of 08/20/92 16:28
 We've got a couple of computer classrooms composed of individual computer
 stations where the monitor is recessed under a glass desktop, the CPU is on
 the floor, and the keyboard is on a pullout tray. With units like these,
 students can see each other without having to look around monitors; they can
 also see the instuctor and vice versa. These units can be arranged in ranks
 and files or in clusters or in any other arrangement. I imagine that someone
 could use the classroom without using the computers at all (a bit of a waste).
 This might be a good way to get computers established on campus. (Regards to
 Ken Sroka)

 -- David E. Schwalm, Assoc. Provost for Academic Programs
 ___Arizona State University West
 ___4701 West Thunderbird Rd.
 ___Phoenix, AZ 85069-7100___(602) 543-4500
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Date:         Thu, 20 Aug 1992 08:15:00 EDT
From:         "Thomas Reber @ English Department" <REBER@CANISIUS.BITNET>
Subject:      Social Interaction in Computer Classrooms

I'd appreciate some help from MBU colleagues in
dealing with the following situation:

I work in an English dept. which is generally suspicious
of and uninformed about computers. (One might call many
of my colleagues "technology-averse.")  As I described my
work on a new computer lab at our college which I
will use for my writing classes, a senior colleague
who takes an expressivist view of composition (he loves
creative writing) immediately said that he would
never eliminate face-to-face interaction. Of course, I
was never intending to do such a thing, and am in fact
fighting for a room layout for our new lab that will be
conducive to group work away from screens as well
as in front of them. (I want to eliminate short,
regimented rows, put the computers along the
walls, and create an open space in the middle
of the room.)  I am not at all concerned that
I might squelch my students' face-to-face
social interaction--that would be impossible
even if I tried, I think.  But I need a good,
straightforward response to my senior colleague.
Does anyone have a suggestion?

Tom Reber      Reber@Canisius
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Date:         Fri, 14 Aug 1992 12:04:00 EST
From:         ENGMYLES@UBVMS.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Bible hypertext

Fred: you should have said SUPERTEXT in HIGHERSTORYSPACE.  That's
the Bible I know.
Myles
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Date:         Wed, 19 Aug 1992 10:21:18 -0500
From:         ENGMYLES@UBVMS.BITNET
Subject:      Re: expected changes?

Dick: those are good ways of looking at what we want our kids to be able to
do as a result of what we ask them to do.  Dare I ask the next question (of
course I dare!): how will you and I know that we've done it and worse yet
how will we know what it is that we did that did it.  (My objective is
changing pronouns into nouns.)
Myles
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