HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: park@umnstat.stat.umn.edu (Chongsun Park)
Newsgroups: rec.audio.high-end
Subject: Who can tell hign-end without music
Date: 16 Aug 92 15:39:33 GMT
Article-I.D.: news2.1992Aug15.062247.11792
Distribution: usa
Organization: School of Statistics, University of Minnesota
Originator: tjk@csd4.csd.uwm.edu

Hi, netters.
I have subscribed this group for about one year. But I never find
any news or opinions about music itself. What is the DEFINITION of
HIGH-END? Is it for only electronics? Does it depens on specifications
only? (i.e. ttotal harmonic distortion is less than 0.003%   etc.)

I never evaluate any components by it's specifications. Instead I eval-
uate them by it's impression when I listen to my favoriate music.
I think that is why there is no dominant
speaker system in the world which occupies more than 20 percents of the
market.  

Who can tell these speaker systems are better than others? I think that
it is similar to say that trumpet is better than horn. 

I am expecting news like Celestion 700 is best for Violin or
                         Martin Logan is best for Strings etc.


Chongsun Park
------------------------------------------------------------------------
I love JBL 4344 and Altec A-5.
------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
Newsgroups: rec.audio.high-end
From: p0p4018@zeus.tamu.edu (PREMTHAMKORN, PRAKIT)
Subject: Re: Apogee Stage subwoofers
Originator: tjk@csd4.csd.uwm.edu
Organization: Texas A&M University, Academic Computing Services
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 13:07:43 GMT

In article <0095EEE9.4D909780.20363@camins.Camosun.BC.CA>, Deryk Barker <dbarker@camins.Camosun.BC.CA> writes...
>Some time ago somebody mentioned a forthcoming dedicated subwoofer for
>the Apogee Stages. Does anyone have more info, like availability or
>(gulp) price?

It was originally scheduled to price at $2400.  But last weekend a dealer in
Houston told me they were just informed that all Apogee products' price will be
raised next month.  The subwoofer's new price is $2600.  Stages will be priced 
at $3000/pr.

The price includes a pair of subwoofers (work as stands also) and a dedicated 
crossover.  You need another stereo amplifier to drive them.

The Stages were very good buy when they first in the market at $2000/pr.  They
still had very good value at $2500.  Personally, I think they are a better buy
than Thiels 2.2 despite $300 price difference.  They are also picky on amplifier
cable and placement.  But they are very musical and friendly to listen to.  At
$3000/pr they are still competitive in this price range but not cheap anymore.

Prakit


Newsgroups: rec.audio.high-end
From: sethb@fid.Morgan.COM (Seth Breidbart)
Subject: Re: Need help for buying a $5000 system(rebuts)
Originator: tjk@csd4.csd.uwm.edu
Organization: my opinions only
Distribution: usa
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1992 15:39:15 GMT

In article <1992Aug13.154453.7779@fnbc.com> wyatt@othello.fnbc.com
(Wyatt Sutherland) writes:

>I strongly disagree!  Start from the source.  Poor recording,  poor listening.
>Poor front-end, CD, turntable, tape, poor listening.  Same  goes for the
>pre-amp, amp and cables.  The speakers should be your last  purchase 
>in the chain.  Have you ever heard the saying "The chain is  only as
>strong as the weakest link."

Poor speakers, poor listening.  The chain is as strong as its weakest
link, not its first link.  I think speakers tend to be the weakest
link (in terms of most distortion) in the chain.  Measurements
indicate this, but I don't know of any blind tests that have been
done.

>  Disc players, as do  turntables, cartridges, 
>mats, isolations and other front-end equipment/devices have  an influence 
>on the reproduction of recorded material.  Be very critical  in your front-end 
>purchase.

Differences between speakers are greater than differences between cd
players.  Proof: I can easily find people who can't hear the
difference between a $200 cd player and a $1000 cd player.  I can't
find people who can't hear the difference between a $200 speaker and a
$1000 speaker.

Seth		sethb@fid.morgan.com

Newsgroups: rec.audio.high-end
From: ramsey@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (curtis ramsey)
Subject: Subs for Spica TC-50's
Originator: tjk@csd4.csd.uwm.edu
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 15:17:27 GMT

I'm looking for a good subwoofer match for my Spica TC-50's anyone
have any suggestions?

Thanks
From: MAYFLON@VTVM1.CC.VT.EDU (Geoff Knobl)
Newsgroups: rec.audio.high-end
Subject: Opinions on Dahlquist
Date: 23 Aug 92 13:52:43 GMT
Organization: University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
Originator: tjk@csd4.csd.uwm.edu

Subject: Opinions on Dahlquist speakers?

>Has anyone had any experiences with the new line of Dahlquist speakers?
>I listened to the previous generation a few years back and was suitably
>impressed.  However, my cash position left me unable to do anything about it.
>Fortunately, things change in time, and I am wondering if they still compare
>to some of the speakers regularly mentioned here (Thiels, Vandersteens, etc.)

I have not listened to any of the new Dahlquists except for the small
6ci's (is that lettering right?).  I listened to these with an eye out
for detail, soundstaging, and smoothness.  I was very impressed with them.
They are small and around bookshelf size.  They were at the time about
2 feet from a wall and when I moved them to 1 feet from the wall, much of
the smoothness in the lower mid-range disappeared as I'd expected.  They
then sounded close to "boomy".  The treble was still very nice and liquid.
The music I listened to was Barimbau (jees, I can't remember spelling
very well today...) from Because of You by Kenny Rankin, Club de Sol from
the Chesky Test CD II and one other selection from the same disk.  All
three I have much experience with on my Phase Tech PC 8.5s.  On that, the
sound staging is very good - as good if not better in some aspects as the
Apogee Stages, though no where near as revealing.  Anyway, the 8.5s are
smooth in the upper midrange and treble, yet I'd say the Dahlquists were
their equals.  The other speakers in the Dahlquist line all use the same
tweeter though I believe the crossover is different in the 6s than the
rest since it uses a much different "woofer".  For $600/pair (before any
store manufactured discount), i'd call them great.  They're the type of
small speaker that will make you glad you're an audiophile.  Since you're
comparing them with Vandies and Thiels, i'd give the other three in the
line a good, serious listen.  My friend enjoyed them much too but was
more in line for smaller surround speakers - so he decided on some Signet
speakers with stands, their smallest speakers.  They also were very
impressive but more so for the sound they got of the money.  The Dahls
were better compared to equivalent models.  He loved the top line
Dahls, even better than the Stages, though I think he just liked the
pressence of deep bass.  One thing about the top two Dahls: they are big
speakers, so plan to have some space available in your listening room.

That confuse the matter enough for you?

Geoff Knobl
Mayflon@VTVM1.cc.vt.edu
"Hand me that piano!"
Newsgroups: rec.audio.high-end
From: tasos@cs.bu.edu (Anastasios Kotsikonas)
Subject: Re: Magnapan 1.5s and Subwoofers
Originator: tjk@csd4.csd.uwm.edu
Organization: Computer Science Department, Boston University, Boston, MA, USA
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 15:12:53 GMT


In article <19920818.113716.139@almaden.ibm.com> BARRON@RHQVM14.VNET.IBM.COM writes:
>
> Any experience out there with combining Magnapan 1.5s with a sub?
>
> Recommended xover freq's & slopes, etc.....Stereo sub v. mono, etc...

I am subbing a pair of MGIIIa's with ONE Entec sub at 80Hz. Unfortunately,
the speakers are so good that a lot of money had to be spent on the Entec.

> Everytime I compare speakers, I always go back and listen to the maggies, and
> have no doubts about what appeals to me.

I myself can never go back to boxed speakers.

Tasos


-- 
--
Tasos Kotsikonas |   tasos@cs.bu.edu    | Work : Advanced Visual Systems
Ex BU Country	 |                      | email: tasos@avs.com
Club Member.	 |                      | Duties: none

Newsgroups: rec.audio.high-end
From: jdhill@star-trek.bbn.com (Jack D. Hill)
Subject: Re: Record cleaning solvents and the environment
Originator: tjk@csd4.csd.uwm.edu
Reply-To: jdhill@BBN.COM (Jack D. Hill)
Organization: Bolt Beranek and Newman Inc., Cambridge MA
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 13:05:50 GMT


I have been using Last products for soom time now. I've been using the power
cleaner and the preservative. This past weekend I stopped at a local dealer of
the stuff only to discover that the price almost doubled from $16 to $31. I
think his explanation was that the price of producing it safely such that less
of it gets into the atmosphere had risen. As it stands, it's too expensive for
me. I guess I'll stop buying it.

Jack
From: checksix@flyboy.EBay.Sun.COM (Al Conte)
Newsgroups: rec.audio.high-end
Subject: Re: Power conditioners, e.g. Tice, PowerWedge,...
Date: 17 Aug 92 13:03:19 GMT
Reply-To: checksix@flyboy.EBay.Sun.COM (Al Conte)
Distribution: rec.audio.high-end
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Originator: tjk@csd4.csd.uwm.edu

In article <Aug.13.15.09.11.1992.27006@gandalf.rutgers.edu>, tcheung@gandalf.rutgers.edu (Tak Cheung) writes:

>How many readers here own or have tried power conditioners for their
>systems ??

I tried one and felt that it was a mega waste of bucks.
I then did the smart thing, and had a dedicated 30 amp line installed
for my amps.
Voilla!! super sound from my amps.
Still today, I think that the best bang for my audio buck has been 
spent on installation of that dedicated line.


Al
Newsgroups: rec.audio.high-end
From: John Stimson <jstimson@jarthur.Claremont.EDU>
Subject: Snells, Thiels, Vandersteens
Originator: tjk@csd4.csd.uwm.edu
Organization: Harvey Mudd College, Claremont, CA 91711
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1992 15:38:59 GMT
          14 Aug 92 16: 44 PDT


I've been looking for $700 or less speakers for a while now, and recently
narrowed it down to Vandersteen 2Cs, Thiel 1.2s, or Snell (E,J,K).  

Yesterday, I went out to hear these speakers.  First, we went to a store
that had Thiels.  Snell told me they had their speakers, but it turned out
to be Snell home theater speakers.  First, I heard the 1.2s, hooked up
through a sony CD player and receiver.  Way bright and harsh!  The bass was
nice and tight, but didn't go down super-far.  Next, I listened to 2.2s,
hooked up to Really Nice Stuff (Sony transport, Krell D/A, Mark Levinson
preamp, Krell amp).  They were Extremely Impressive.  Very precise,
accurate, etc. soundstage.  Plenty of clean bass.

The salesman told me that in reality, the 1.2 and 2.2 have very similar
midrange to high end, the only difference being the bass driver and
enclosure.  Has anyone heard the two using the same equipment?  Is he BS-ing
me?

What are the differences between the CS1 and CS1.2, and between the CS2 and
CS2.2?  Has anyone heard and compared any of these models?

I couldn't find a Snell dealer.  There are two places Snell gave me
addresses for (in LA) that we didn't check out, but of the other three, two
sold home theater speakers, and one was locked and barred heavily at around
2pm on a Thursday...If anyone has had any experience in comparing Snells to
the Vandersteens or Thiels, please mail me!

I'm also curious about the differences between the A/II and A/III, E/II and
E/III, ans J/II and J/III.  Also about the differences between the different
models (construction and sound).

Finally, we went back and listened to some Vandersteen 2Ces, using a Theta
D/A, an Audio Research integrated amp being used as a preamp, and a Mark
Levinson 50-watt power amp.  The sound was much more lifelike than the
Thiels, with a bit less fine spatial detail.

I'd like to know how big a sound difference there is between the 2C, 2Ci,
and 2Ce.  The salesman told me that in the midst of 2Ci production, the
tweeter was changed from cloth to metal, and that the 2Ce has a new tweeter,
ne midrange driver, and a bigger enclosure.  Is this a big deal?

Thanks for any information you may contribute!
							John

Newsgroups: rec.audio.high-end
From: Jay Tan <jaytan@ctr.columbia.edu>
Subject: Phase Technology Speakers
Originator: tjk@csd4.csd.uwm.edu
Organization: University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 15:19:30 GMT




I was offered a deal on a pair of Phase Technology speakers, PC 80, with two 8' Monster cables, for $530 + tax.  What do you think about the deal?  Your opinions greatly appreciated!!!!

This pair of bookshelf speakers indeed sound VERY good.  According to the salesman, they've won an anual award for speakers under $1000 from an audio magazine.  

This is my impression from my audition:
With astonishing bass and extreme clarity from the best bookshelf speakers I've ever heard.
Each speaker weighs 32 pounds!  Together 64 lb., you'll two men to move them around.
1' thick borad!
They obviously beat the KEf bookshelf, $800, sitting next to them.

Again, your suggestions about the price, your experience with them, etc, are more than welcome!



Newsgroups: rec.audio.high-end
From: sethb@fid.Morgan.COM (Seth Breidbart)
Subject: Re: Need help for buying a $5000 system(rebuts)
Originator: tjk@csd4.csd.uwm.edu
Organization: my opinions only
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 13:04:49 GMT
	(5.61/UUNET-internet-primary) id AB24378; Tue, 18 Aug 92 12: 57:25 -0400

In article <1992Aug18.141611.29711@cbnewsj.cb.att.com>
dg@mtqua.att.com (Duane Galensky) writes:

> what would be the 
>purpose of taking along someone with better hearing to audition 
>the equipment that you intend to buy, other than to convince
>you to buy something more expensive than you personally can
>appreciate?  is this really a practical method, or am i
>asking a brazenly "mid-fi" question?

I've found that I "learn" to hear; minor defects in sound that I can't
detect in a short (3-hour) listening trial can become hugely annoying
after several months.  The advantage of taking a friend with "better
ears" (not better hearing; my hearing probably goes a few kilohertz
higher than his) along was that he would notice those defects early.

>i don't know about you all, but i sure can't hear as well
>as i used to...unfortunately i don't expect to hear better
>with time.

In an absolute, "numbers" sense, your hearing will only get worse with
time (in terms of, say, the minimum noticeable volume level for a 15
kHz signal).  However, your hearing can improve, as your ears get
"trained".  Unfortunately, buying a better system seems to cause this
training to occur (requiring a still better system, which causes more
training, which ... ends up keeping dealers in business).

Seth		sethb@fid.morgan.com


Newsgroups: rec.audio.high-end
From: bbaker@novell.com (Brad Baker)
Subject: Re: Need help for buying a $5000 system(rebuts)
Originator: tjk@csd4.csd.uwm.edu
Organization: Novell Inc., San Jose, Califonia
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 15:39:09 GMT
  (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for rec-audio-high-end@uunet.uu.net); Mon, 17 Aug 1992 10: 53:20 -0700

In article <1992Aug14.151014.429@mcnc.org> kk@mcnc.org (Krzysztof A. Kozminski) writes:
>In article <1992Aug13.154453.7779@fnbc.com> wyatt@othello.fnbc.com (Wyatt Sutherland) writes:
>The above is a disgusting, sexist, macho-chauvinist-pig statement.  And
>ignorant about physiology of hearing to boot.  The same wife relegated
>by you to laundry jobs is likely to posess hearing abilities way beyond
>what you were born with, and almost certainly vastly superior to what

Hearing is not just what your ear can detect, but your brain.
In listening to music, one person who has a trained, or learned, ear
such as an audiophile or musician, can hear, or discern, or extract
more information, from a piece of music, than can a layman or laywoman
for that matter.  Have you ever pointed out some background music, fan
noise, or something else, to someone who could verify the sound, but
wouldn't have noticed the sound if you hadn't pointed it out?
Yes, this is a generalization, but I think it is valid.


Brad
From: jdhill@star-trek.bbn.com (Jack D. Hill)
Newsgroups: rec.audio.high-end
Subject: System Upgrade
Date: 20 Aug 92 15:19:38 GMT
Reply-To: jdhill@BBN.COM (Jack D. Hill)
Organization: Bolt Beranek and Newman Inc., Cambridge MA
Originator: tjk@csd4.csd.uwm.edu


	I'm currently in the midst of revamping my system and I'd like to
solicit the net for suggestions. I currently have the following system:

Kyocera turntable w. Audio Technica cartridge
Hafler DH-100 series 2 preamp
Hafler DH-200 power amp
Custom Made 3 way speaker

Due to space limitations in my living room, the speakers need to be close to
the wall. I also have the room set up so that the speakers are facing my couch
across the short side of the room. I tried rearranging the living room such
that the speakers were away from walls and facing across the long side of the
room and this helped. Unfortunately it makes the living room useless for
anything else. Besides, these speakers are not perfect and are much too big for
my living room. They go down to around 30 Hz and standing waves are a problem.
	A friend of  mine suggested satellites and subwoofers. He has two pair
of Proac Tablettes and is willing to let one pair go for a reasonable price.
His system uses an active crossover to drive a Conrad-Johnson tube amp on the
Proacs and an SAE amp on a pair of Advents that have only the woofers attached.
His system has a very liquid midrange, are a little bright on top and has a
polite but clean bass.
	I've become more and more convinced that tubes are the way to go. I
have quite a few friends who own tube electronics and they've made me a convert.
Due to budget restrictions, I want to upgrade my system gradually and would
like to start off with inexpensive but decent components. My thought was to
find a pair of passive subwoofers that will go down to 40 Hz (being a double
bass player I can't totally give up the bass) and mate them with the Proacs to
be driven by my Hafler. The Hafler preamp is too harsh on the high end and I
would like to replace it with a nice tube unit. Eventually I would like to get a
tube power amp for the satellites but I was wondering if there is an
alternative to an active crossover.
	Since bass frequencies are non-directional, I should be able to place
the woofers anywhere in the room. The Proacs can be put on stands and left up 
against the wall when not in use or for background music and moved out into the 
room when I want to do critical listening.
	Are there any alternatives or suggestions?

Thanks,
Jack Hill
Newsgroups: rec.audio.high-end
From: wyatt@othello.fnbc.com (Wyatt Sutherland)
Subject: Re: Need help for buying a $5000 system(rebuts)
Originator: tjk@csd4.csd.uwm.edu
Organization: First National Bank Of Chicago, Chicago IL, USA
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 13:18:06 GMT

In article <1992Aug11.142606.7451@walter.bellcore.com>  
bellcore!broom.bae.bellcore.com!fvr@uunet.UU.NET (Frank Ricciardi)  
writes:
> 
> Jae Woo 
> 
> Clearly if you are willing to spend $5000 on a system, you'll  
be able to
> meet your needs listed below. 
> 

Frank,

Yes you are correct.  $5000 should suffice. Meet one's needs  
is a totally different issue.

> My advice to you is to go to your local hi-fi shop and listen  to
> different systems.  Bring some CD's that are representative of your listening 
> preferences. 
> 
> First listen to different loudspeakers. They will be the most important
> purchase you will make. All loudspeakers are designed differently, and thus 
> they can greatly affect the sound of the completed system. In choosing loud
> speakers, ther is NO RIGHT AND WRONG choice, they have to sound good to YOU.
> 
I strongly disagree!  Start from the source.  Poor recording,  poor listening.
Poor front-end, CD, turntable, tape, poor listening.  Same  goes for the
pre-amp, amp and cables.  The speakers should be your last  purchase 
in the chain.  Have you ever heard the saying "The chain is  only as
strong as the weakest link."

> Once you have chosen your speakers, select a power section that can 
> "adequately" drive them. What I mean by adequately is this:
> 
> As a general rule, your amp is at max power output with  minimal 
> distortion at around 1 o'clock on the volume dial. You mentioned  that you do 
> not crave loud volume from a system. However, a low powered amp  must work
> harder to produce your comfort level than does a high powered amp. Thus even at 
> low volume levels, a high powered amp will give better (cleaner)  sound.
>
I agree with a higher powered amp should normally give a  cleaner sound.
Again, what is better. 

> 
> As far as a disc player, they really sound pretty much the  same. Decide
> if you want a changer or single disc, then choose one based on the  features.
>
Definitely, definitely wrong.  Disc players, as do  turntables, cartridges, 
mats, isolations and other front-end equipment/devices have  an influence 
on the reproduction of recorded material.  Be very critical  in your front-end 
purchase.

> 
> There are various publications you can read that will inform  you about 
> different products and even teach you about some of the specs.   Finding a friend
> or aquaintance who has purchased a system recently is also a good  idea.
> 
You contradict your statement above - "ther is NO RIGHT AND  WRONG choice, 
they have to sound good to YOU".  Don't rely on specs.  Use  YOUR ears and
trust them.  You have to live with your purchase, and who  knows, you might
end up spending less then $5000.  But it is always a good  idea to bring a
friend along.  They can help talk the wife into letting you  keep the system
besides spending the money on a new washer/dryer.

wyatt@fnbc.com
#import <STDDisclaimer.h>

Newsgroups: rec.audio.high-end
From: rsud@lectroid.sw.stratus.com (Rajiv Sud)
Subject: Re: Adcom bashers, et  al: missing something?
Originator: tjk@csd4.csd.uwm.edu
Organization: Stratus Computer, Inc.
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 13:08:50 GMT


In article <PSU.92Aug10120337@ptero.cs.duke.edu>, psu@cs.duke.edu (Peter Su) writes:
> 
> This is something that has always bothered me about the high end
> press, and perhaps high end audio in general.
[deleted. -tjk] 
> And yet, reading a Stereophile/TAS review reads like a long catalog of
> equipment switches, room tweaks, cartridge hacking and cable manuvers.
> Has 15 yrs. experience with this stuff not taught them *anything*?
> Are doomed to an eternity of full factorial experiments?
> 
> Pete

Pete,
	Have you read anything besides equipment reviews in high-end
magazines? If you had you would realize that their have been many
articles about the "philosophy" of high-end. Because high-end is not
an exact science you can't expect to be led by the nose. There are no
hardfast rules. Your example above may be true in some settings and
not true in others. Being in high-end does require some degree of
sentients. Both the high-end magazines you cite have specifically
stated that they are not audio bibles. You can use them to advance
and enhance your understanding but you need to do work on your own
so you have some experience to relate with what you read in high
end magazines. Most people are not willing to do this and want to
be told what to buy (i.e., they want rules and not knowledge).
Hopefully you are not in this catagory. 

..Rajiv

Newsgroups: rec.audio.high-end