From: makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky)
Subject: Re: kahane's judaism
Reply-To: makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky)
Organization: Arizona State University, Tempe AZ
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 19:52:17 GMT

In article <1993Jan6.1777.22123@channel1> "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com> writes:

# To: David Makowsky
 
# Let's see if we can summarize where we stand.
 
# To my request that you provide the name of one reputable
# international lawyer who is not an emotional Zionist and who has
# defended Israel's recent mass deportations you produced zip.
 
	This is a lie.  To prove this, read prior articles in this thread.

# To my request that you back up the charge that Bush and Baker
# relied on legal hacks to implement some of their policies you
# produced zip.
 
	This is a lie.  To prove this, read prior articles in this thread.

# I still don't have a single checkable source from you regarding
# either issue.
 
	This is a lie.  To prove this, read prior articles in this thread.

# To my post from Ha'aretz which quotes Kahane calling for the mass
# deportation or murder of Arab "dogs," you reply that you don't
# believe he said such evil things.

# Three points in response:
 
# 1) Ha'aretz is one of Israel's most respected newspapers. If
# Ha'aretz reported that Kahane said these things, it is highly
# likely that he did indeed say them. The ball is in your court:
# prove that Ha'aretz is lying.

	Fine.  Give me the date and issue, and let us know how you came to
understand hebrew well enough to translate it.

# 2) If Ha'aretz is lying, it could be sued for libel by Kahane's
# family. I notice that Kahane and his followers and family never
# sued any newspaper, magazine, or book which reported that he said
# these awful things.

	You have obviously no idea about libel laws in Israel.  In
Sharon's case, which was very cut and dry, he won practically
nothing.

# 3) I've seen and heard Kahane say these things with my own eyes
# and ears. He was recorded on film making remarks precisely like
# these in a documentary about Israel which appeared a few years
# ago.

	Oh really.  You understood his hebrew?

# In sum, your response to the Ha'aretz article is weak indeed.

	Fine.  You are wrong, but give me the date of the issue and how
you came to be able to translate it.

# I trust you would not like any major Christian leader to remark
# that Jews are dogs who should be deported or murdered in the name
# of Christianity. Your failure to show any moral outrage over
# Kahane's harangues that Arabs are dogs or insects who should be
# deported or murdered in the name of Judaism speaks poorly for
# your values and judgement.

	Nope, but your lies do not speak very well of you.

# Perhaps you can explain away this passage from Robert Friedman's
# False Prophet (pages 214-215):
 
#      Kahane prepared several bills for the Knesset that were
#      shockingly reminiscent of the Nuremberg Laws, which the
#      Nazis had enacted against German Jews nearly five decades
#      earlier. One called for the expulsion of Israel's Arabs.
#      Another would have made it a crime punishable by two years
#      in jail for a Jewish woman to have sex with an Arab. A third
#      would have made it illegal to insult Judaism and the Jewish
#      people. "We state that anyone who declares that any verse or
#      saying in the Bible, the Talmud, or the Commentary isn't
#      true is racist and should be subject to three years in
#      prison," Kahane told me. He also called for confining
#      Israel's non-Jews to ghettos lest they pollute the
#      "authentic Jewish" spirit. As he put it in a speech he
#      delivered in New York in 1984: "The foreigners vomit their
#      sickness onto us, and we swallow it eagerly.... Let us vomit
#      them out and purge the Holy Land of all vestige of
#      impurity."

	The bills the Rabbi presented were in his overall framework to
make Israeli law cliser to Jewish law.  At most you can call him a
religious fanatic.  However, your attempts to take his actions out of
that overall framework paint you as the dishonest swine you are.

	Now most of what others say about the late Rabbi are made up lies.
The ghetto and vomit quotes at the very least seem to me to be
mistranslations.  Why don't you give the original source so they can
be checked out?

# Or this passage (page 217):
 
#      .... In a speech in Haifa on June 28, 1985, Kahane attacked
#      Jews and Arabs equally. "No one can understand the soul of
#      those (Arab) beasts, those roaches," glowered Kahane. "We
#      shall either cut their throats or throw them out. I only
#      say what you think."

	How about giving the exact source so we can tell if he was talking
about Arab terrorists or not?

#      According to a report in Kolbo Haifa,
#      a Hebrew-language weekly newspaper in Haifa, Kahane then
#      directed a stream of obscenities against the mayor of Haifa,
#      Arieh Goral, and left-wing politicians Shulamit Aloni and
#      Yossi Sarid, whom he called "scoundrel," "dog,"
#      "disgusting," and "Jewish prostitutes who employ Arab
#      pimps."
 

	Oh. come on.  These people called the late Rabbi worse and served
to disenfranchise him and his followers.  And besides, since you
present these which were directed towards Jews, you have, all by
youself, singlehandedly  defeated the argument that he was a racist.
Thank you.

#      Kahane concluded his harangue, which was megalomaniacal even
#      by his standards, by promising his audience: "In two years
#      time, they [the Arabs] will turn on the radio and hear that
#      Kahane has been named minister of defense. Then they will
#      come to me, bow to me, lick my feet, and I will be merciful
#      and will allow them to leave. Whoever does not leave will
#      be slaughtered."

	An exact source please?  Sam reqasons as above.

# Do you feel no sense of shame, sir, in supporting a demagogue who
# would made such hateful remarks? Would you like to be the target
# of such remarks yourself? Is there no place in your form of
# Judaism for the ethics of the golden rule: treat others as you
# wish to be treated?

	You are spewing nonsense.  If I do not reply to your next article
it is because you have not given us anything reasonable to check on,
and/or you have used lies about my articles, the late Rabbi, or
others.
--
	There are three types of people in the world.  Those that are good
at math and those that are not.

makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast