From: chuckies@cs.mcgill.ca (Charles J Savoie)
Subject: Re: Drunk Sex = Rape?
Organization: SOCS - McGill University, Montreal, Canada
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 16:02:32 GMT

In article <012593110444dude@losers.hacktic.nl> dude@losers.hacktic.nl (Dude) writes:
>In article <C1BpFC.A35@cs.mcgill.ca>, Charles J Savoie writes:

>CH> >In the
>CH> >abovedescribed state she goes to bed with someone.  The next morning she
>CH> >wakes up, hung over, looks over to the other side of the bed, and says:
>CH> >"WHAT was I thinking of last night?"

>CH> Tough.  As someone else mentioned, one is still responsible for their
>CH> actions while intoxicated, if the intoxication was willing.

>True, but taking advantage of someone when he/she is drunk something else..
>When a man is drunk, and I take his money, it's a crime. When a woman gets
>drunk, and I rape her, it's a crime.

For the bazillionth time, I KNOW THAT.  Read what's written above: "In
[a very drunk] state she goes to bed with someone".  Not "gets raped",
not "someone has intercourse with her without her consent"...

When a man gets drunk, and he gives you money, and you take it, it isn't
a crime.  When a woman gets drunk, and wants to have sex with you, and
you do, it isn't a crime.  This is the *ONLY* case we're discussing here.
Why is it that people say "yeah but it's rape if she's unconscious"...?
That's obvious!


>CH> Amy, here is my example of someone who believes sleeping with a drunk
>CH> woman is grounds for being thrown in jail and getting a criminal record
>CH> (a misdemeanor is sufficient for this, is it not?).

>There's a difference between raping someone and sleeping with someone..

Again, I agree!  (Though some don't.) But why is this relevant?  I never
said ANYTHING about non-consensual sex (i.e. rape) not being punishable.

>CH> Bloody scary, these people who think a reason must be found to put men
>CH> in jail and label them criminals at all costs.

>I don't want to put men in jail and label them criminals at all costs, I'm
>male myself. But I do think that it should be illigal to throw a drunk girl
>to the ground and jump her.

I also think it should be illegal to go up to someone and shoot them.
Where's the relevance?

>If she agrees to have sex with you, that's another
>thing, but if she can't even talk or doesn't even realize what's happening
>around her...

If she can't talk, then she couldn't have said "yes".  This wasn't the
described situation.

You reply almost shows another point; that people don't even tend to listen
(in this case, read) that a woman CONSENTED when she was drunk.  It doesn't
seem to matter to some people.

>CH> No bloody wonder the US has the highest per capita prison population in the
>CH> world.

>I don't think that the US has the 'highest per capita prison population in the
>world' because of this. I think it's because the US just has more offenders 
>then, say, holland.

No.  Per capita.  Certainly not because of rape laws (yet), but due to
a hysteria about punishment in general as evidenced in this discussion.

Also, from what I know about Holland (which is little, but...), I am sure
that the *per capita* prison population is A LOT less in Holland.  You
seem to have more intelligent people making laws there in general.  Laws
which punish more real criminals, and protect more innocent people (Like
those who sleep with consenting, drunk, adult, women who are sane).

Charles

-- 

,.. .  . .  . ,.. . . ... ,.. ,..   =====================================
|   |--| |  | |   |<   |  |-  `-.   Charles Savoie  chuckies@cs.mcgill.ca
`'' '  ' `''' `'' ' ` ''' `'' '''   =====================================
Newsgroups: talk.rape,soc.women