From: rivk@quads.uchicago.edu (nora gayle rivkis)
Subject: Re: Homosexual Jews. A serious question.
Keywords: homosexual jews
Reply-To: rivk@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1992 23:02:05 GMT

In article <1992Apr7.125810.8190@umbc3.umbc.edu> shimoff@umbc4.umbc.edu (Eliot Shimoff) writes:
>I had written something to the effect that the Orthodox community
>would have no problem with a homosexual who practiced homosexuality
>in private, and did not make it a public ussue.
>
>Nora asks:
>>What do you mean by "making it a public issue?" Do any of the
>>following qualify?
>>
>>1) Working politically for protection from discrimination
>>and assault for homosexuals
>
>I know many non-homosexuals who want to protect homosexuals from
>discrimination and assault; doing so suggests the person is
>a liberal or libertarian, but not necessarily homosexual.
>(Given that homosexuality is halakhically forbidden even
>to  nonJews, there is the question of whether halakha demands
>that halakhically-bound Jews  support certain kinds of secular
>civil legislation.  But that's another issue.)

I'm not sure I assume I'm halachically bound to support *any*
particular kind of civil legislation, but that's another issue.
If the seventh of the Noachic laws is for the nations to set
up their own judicial systems to enforce the other six, it
seems to suggest to me that we leave them to do it and not try
to force them into enforcing them in particular fashions. It
is another issue, though; and you're certainly correct that
political action of the kind I described is not limited to the
people who would be protected by it. I got involved in a set
of protests on the subject when there was a series of murder
attempts on gay students on my campus last year, and the uni-
versity was handling the situation extremely unsafely.

>>2) Sharing a one-bedroom apartment with a member of their
>>own sex, and not curtailing their hospitality to the point
>>where nobody will ever see the inside of the apartment
>
>If it's a two  bedroom apartment, I see  no reason to raise
>any questions.  In the toughest case -- a studio apartment
>with a single bed, I would have my personal suspicions (as I
>would if a male and female were sharing an apartment).  The
>key concept is "discretion."  

You seem to be assuming that if the people do not say, nobody
will ask. This is a very silly assumption to make in *any*
relatively close community, and given some of the tongues I
have heard wagging in communities Orthodox or no, I am not
prepared to bet on discretion from the observer's side no
matter how thoroughly it is practiced from that of the ob-
served.

>>3) Declining matchmaking offers on a consistent basis, even
>>past the age when people in Orthodox communities often get
>>nosy about why one is still unmarried and making no effort
>>to change the fact
>
>I know of such people in the Orthodox community.   While some
>folks may harbor suspicions, nobody is willing to act on
>those suspicions, or to spread lashon hara (rumors).  Such
>men are fully accepted  in the Orthodox community, are given
>aliyot, and serve as teachers.  

That last sentence answers my question; for the premise that
"nobody is willing to... spread lashon hara" I have to say that
this seems to me to be an ideal at best. That's one of the laws
I've found more people breaking...

>>4) Asking that people who are making nasty remarks about
>>homosexuality please stop it, that it's offensive (the 
>>same way, one hopes, that they would about any other form
>>of prejudicial or bigoted statements)
>
>People like that my be shunned for being libertarians :-).

This can be dealt with by a few sharp questions regarding
what such people think of bigoted remarks when they are
addressed to Jews.

>But such actions do not justify accusing a person of
>publicly practicing homosexuality.

No, they do not justify it, but people do accuse in
such circumstances anyway. My questions regarded what 
to do when and if they did.

>>5) Refusing to lie when asked a direct question?
>
>Who would ask such a question?  Rebbitizin Manners is shocked!

Anyone who encountered any of the above situations, who was
possessed of the fairly common character failing of having a
tongue that is hinged in the middle and flapping at both ends.
I've been accused of having such a tongue myself on more than
one occasion, and deserved it (although not on this topic); it's
common enough that people had better be prepared for it.

>Rebbitizon Manners would answer: "I am really disappointed
>that you would ask such a personal question.   I deeply believe
>that sex is a beautiful and enchanting relation, but  it is
>intensely personal, and is only the business of the three
>people involved."  And then Rabbitizin Manners would return to her
>davening.  (Sorry. You can take  Shimoff out of Adar, but
>you can't take the Adar out of Shimoff.)

Fair enough (and I'm certainly not going to object to some
humor tossed in here -- it's a depressing enough subject
all round...) I do think that eventually, if the gossips
get nasty enough, it is permissible to punish rumor-spreaders
by shock tactics, and confirm in direct language calculated
to make the gossips faint everything they had suspected. Even
if not all of it is true. ;-)

>>There are ways that fairly intelligent people who tend to
>>poke their noses into other people's business can find out
>>without someone "making an issue of it", Eliot.
>
>In a  sense, you are right.  Many people will suspect any unmarried
>male  over 25 of practicing homosexuality.  But my guess is that,
>at least in the Orthodox community, these suspicions could never be
>acted upon if the homosexual individual is discreet.

"Acted upon" maybe not. Talked about, almost certainly. It's
not a failing of the Orthodox community per se; it's just something
people have this unfortunate habit of doing...

>My  main point is, again, that discreet practicing homosexuals will
>not be discriminated against in the Orthodox community.  But when a 
>person openly advocates homosexuality, he/she is in the position
>of one who openly advocates any non-normative behavior -- and is
>likely to face social sanctions ny the Orthodox community.

I can deal with this (not that I have to deal with it in any
but the theoretical sense) as long as people who poke too far
into other people's business do not go self-righteous when they
turn up things both they and the person being spied upon would
prefer to keep quiet.

>Eliot Shimoff                  

-- 
Oseh shalom b'imromav, hu ya'aseh shalom aleinu v'al kol yisrael.
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