From: tracy@scoraz.resp-sci.arizona.edu (Tracy Scheinkman)
Newsgroups: rec.equestrian
Subject: re: CID in Arabs and Arab-related horses
Date: 13 Oct 92 22:21:29 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Arizona, Tucson, AZ

In Article 9221 in rec.equestrian donnag@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Donna Griffiths)
writes:

[m[A

>In rec.equestrian, tracy@scoraz.resp-sci.arizona.edu (Tracy Scheinkman) writes:

>The herds  Tracy is talking  about are  primarily  Crabbet/Sheyk  Obeyd
>Egyptian.  (Some have some high  quotients  of  inbreeding  also, so if
>there was CID it  definitely  would have  surfaced  by now!)  These are
>excellent,  strong, friendly and beautiful  horses that do well in show
>and trail.  This is an  incredible  tribute  to the  excellence  of the
>bloodlines.

	I am not certain that the Fable and Shalimar breeding programs
fall into what you call the Crabbet/Sheyk Obeyd Egyptian.  The Crabbet
breeding program was founded on horses such as Azrek, Queen of Sheba,
Rodania, Pharoah, and Kars who they brought out of the Arabian desert in 
the 1870's and crossed with such Abbas Pasha bred Egyptian horses as 
Mesaoud, Mahruss II, Bint Helwa, Selma, Sohba, and others.  Sheyk Obeyd
was used as a staging station from which to export the Egyptian horses
to England, many horses were bred there and later transported, some
were bred there and stayed, and some left progeny on both continents.
Later Skowronek was purchased and crossed with a great number of the
Crabbet horses.  So how do you define a Crabbet/Sheyk Obeyd Egyptian
horse?  Would the ones at Fable (see below for their breeding) fit
into this category?  Are there any Crabbet bloodlines that do not
fit into this category? 

>Note also, that CID (to my  knowledge)  has NOT been found in Al Khamsa
>Arabian horses (which include most straight  Egyptians, the  Davenports
>and others).  CID has not been noted in the "most highly inbred  horses
>in the world"  either, the remaining  "100% Blunt" horses (Bruce Maloof
>has some of these, also known as "Doyle" arabians and tracing  entirely
>to the Crabbet Egyptian  program of Lady Anne and Wilfred Scawen Blunt,
>specifically lines from Gulnare, Ghadaf and Nusi primarily)

	I don't know about this CID is an insidious problem, I was told
two days ago by Dr. Dryden, owner of Fable, that there was one foal, 
sired by a horse named Shalimar Tarde, who MAY have been a CID foal,
they are not sure.  The foal was sired when Tarde was no longer at 
Shalimar and the mare's lineage is unknown, however Tarde himself was
of Abbas Pasha line breeding, though a different line than the ones
they usually breed at Shalimar.  There have not been any other suspected
cases before or since and unfortunately Dr. Munson, owner of Shalimar,
was not able to check this report out completely.
	So CID may be able to strike just about anywhere, though herds
that are linebred or inbred with few outcrosses are more likely to be
either free of it or to discover it early on than herds with numerous
outcrosses and varying bloodlines.

>(To my knowledge, the Fable and Shalimar  herds are this blood with the
>addition of some excellent old Egyptian and Skowronek blood.)

	The Fable and Shalimar breeding programs are based on a high
percentage of Skowronek blood inherited mainly through one son *Raffles.
ALL the horses of their breeding program are at least 50% *Raffles blood.
In addition to *Raffles, some *Raseyn, *Mirage, and a few other Crabbet
stallions are present, and many mares such as *Rifala, *Kareyma, *Indaia,
and so forth, these horses were crossed with some Davenport blood, such
as *Urfah, *Wadduda, *Hamrah, *Hanad, *Deyr and several others, and several
other desert bred horses and a few lines from places like France, *Kola,
and Egypt, *Roda, *Aziza.  
	
>Note that "my knowledge" is always growing, so any
>corrections/additions are welcome...

	Mine too, for example I would like to know how you define an
Al Khamsa horse?  I had thought they had to belong to the Blue List
or Blue Star Egyptian horses to be considered Al Khamsa, but you 
indicate that some of these Crabbet horses might be considered Al
Khamsa.  Just curious.

>thanks!
>Donna

	Thank you too!

				Tracy and everybody