HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: psilsbee@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Peter Silsbee)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Abbey bashing.  Was: Trip rpt: SE Utah 4wd vacation, part 3/4
Date: 23 Nov 92 22:13:48 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin TX

In article <1992Nov17.140235.29055@porthos.cc.bellcore.com> mpb@troy.cc.bellcore.com (bunz,marcus p) writes:
>I don't
>think that limiting people to one or even two children would be good
>in the US. If I'm not mistaken, the population of the US has been
>flat or declining slightly, if you exclude emigrants.  

Hallelujah!! At least we're doing SOMETHING right!

>I agree with
>your proposal to educate people, and efforts should be made to provide
>effective birth control especially in areas that are not capable of
>supporting the population load, either directly through farming/fishing,
>or indirectly through distribution channels.  

Well, it could be argued that, since you're willing to use distribution
channels, this pretty much includes the entire planet. Certainly some
distribution channels are more economical than others; the US could 
support its own population for some time to come, through
"farming/fishing"... does this mean that we can have more kids if we
refuse to export food? All I'm trying to say here, and not very well
at that, is that let's "provide"
that birth control EVERYWHERE. Living in a wealthy society doesn't give
us the right to overpopulate. I'd argue the opposite, in fact, since we
(as a society) already consume disproportionately.

...stuff deleted that I have no answer for...

>  However,
>you have managed to find a way to have your cake (not invest in the
>future of the contry either financially, 
>or through giving your time in raising
>children), and eat it to (everyone elses children will be working to
>provide for you, assuming SS entitlements don't completely go away).
>

Now, I know that this wasn't directed at me, but jeez... all the guy said
was that he was going to retire to the woods, you seem to be assuming 
a lot here.

Also, maybe I'm reading too much into what you wrote, but I get annoyed when
I perceive the attitude that somehow, those who have children are by
definition investing more in the future of the country. 

YOU ARE NOT OBLIGATED TO HAVE KIDS IN ORDER TO BE A GOOD CITIZEN.

"Have fewer kids, like I did."

--Peter

Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: eugene@wilbur.nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya)
Subject: Re: Guide info
Organization: NAS, NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 92 08:08:26 GMT

In article <00963BDD.32CCEB60@Msu.oscs.montana.edu>
uchpcjv@Msu.oscs.montana.edu writes:
>WHY would anyone WANT to be a guide?  The mind boggles...

One learns a lot about the activity one is guiding.
One does it for the opportunities.  The outside consulting possibilities
beyond the day to day teaching are some times interesting:
driving HUMMV, shooting an M-60, finding interesting students.  The majority
you will get, however, if you just do day to day teaching, will be turkeys.
You can't plan on making money.  The real money is in consulting to
large groups and these are the hardest to deal with.

>In order to "call oneself a guide", you must be willing to work for no
>pay (a "reputable" mountain school in Colorado makes it a policy NOT
>to pay guides), work with jaded executives who have always "wanted to

It is not atypical for services to get 90% of the take.  It's is rarely as
good or as simple as that: bad weather and other problems intervene.
Learning about business skills probably would help a lot of guides.

>try this" and are en-route to bungee jumping, sacrifice ALL your
>personal climbing time, etc., etc..  No damn fun.
>
>Incidently, I think the Exum and NOLS courses are $$$$$$ (?).
>"FUCK N.O.L.S.!"
>       -- Anonymous Moutaineering School Owner.

Interesting statement.  Sounds like a shopowner in an area where REI decided
to move in....

--eugene miya, NASA Ames Research Center, eugene@orville.nas.nasa.gov
  Resident Cynic, Rock of Ages Home for Retired Hackers
  {uunet,mailrus,other gateways}!ames!eugene
Second Favorite email message: Returned mail: Cannot send message for 3 days
Ref: Burn Out in the Maze by David Roberts
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: czichon@psyche.csc.ti.com (Cary Czichon)
Subject: Re: Guide info
Keywords: guide
Organization: Texas Instruments
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 17:57:36 GMT

In article <Nov17.160809.57935@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU>
trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU (wayne trzyna) writes:
>In article <Bxv5BL.BoL@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> mratliff@sage.cc.purdue.edu
(Michael S. Ratliff) writes:

>>Howdy All,

>>I am looking for information on how to become a guide.  What does it take for
>>one to call oneself a guide?

>In this country?  A big yellow sign that says "WHITE WATER RAFTING, $30"
>and a moral inclination toward disguising from your clients the fact that
>their lives are at risk.  ...Oh, and maybe a lawyer.
>
>Not much in the way of certification is required, but you may need a
>concessionaire's permit from the USFS.

WRONG.  I assume Michael means a certified guide for either mountain climbing
or rock climbing.  The American Mountain Guide Association (AMGA) certifies
guides and accredits training organizations.  AMGA certifies either rock
guides or alpine guides.  Rock guide certification is either level 1 or 2.
To become a level 1 rock guide, an applicant must complete an approved basic
course on rock GUIDING (~$450), must complete the orientation for an AMGA
assessment, then successfully pass the assessment itself (~$1800).  Time
required is usually one to two years.  Certified guides must then maintain
membership in AMGA ($75 yearly dues).  The purpose of the procedure is to 
weed out incompetent, fly-by-night operators.  If you're AMGA certified,
you're probably serious about what you're doing.

Cary Czichon
czichon@csc.ti.com



From: tonyz@hpwrce.mayfield.hp.com (Tony Zugates)
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 00:08:17 GMT
Subject: Mitchell Caverns!
Organization: the HP Mtn.View Resp. Cntr.
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry

Hey, here's a little-known out of the way adventure.....

About due east of L.A., in the middle of the desert near the small
town of Cadiz is a place called Mitchell Caverns.. It is I believe
a state park, or something...anyway, there is a park official on 
site to take care of the place and give tours through the caverns.
I have never been to the "big" ones i.e. Carlsbad etc, but Mitchell
Caverns is worth the time, even though its a ways out in the desert
and the cavern is relatively a small one.. It is situated on the side
of a mountain that to this day has animals (snakes, certain furry 
stuff) that date back to a time when the area was forested and these 
animals were left on the mountain as the surrounding landscape turned 
hot and dry.  Inside, the park service has the lights set up etc and 
it is really cool! Stalagmites and Stalagtites (remember which was 
which?) abound and the park rangers have all sorts of stories about
the indians who used to live there to recount to visitors...and thats
the neat thing about it..there usually isnt anyone else there!  Nearby
are also the "booming" sand dunes of Devil's Playground...so called 
because they are one of only a few dune areas on earth where the granular
shape of the sand is such that when the sand naturally starts sliding, 
a resounding booooom is heard, although it is probably rare to actually 
be there when it happens... the surrounding desert is also a good place 
to find shale deposits where I used to find lots of intact trilobites..
but remember.. its hot in the summertime.  

Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: sex@chopin.udel.edu (Martin Solo Schamis)
Subject: Re: Goretex jackects
Organization: University of Delaware
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 05:51:41 GMT

I own the NF mountain-lite jacket.  It is virtually the same jacket as
the mountain jacket, only it weighs slightly less, lacks an inner powder 
skirt and is slightly longer (~2")  It is also about $40 cheaper than the
mountain jacket.  You can still zip in all the other jackets, and I have
found the jacket to be highly durable.  I have had it for well over a year
and hiked numerous times, in rain, snow, sun, etc.  I have also skied 
in the jacket in -15 degree weather.  The jacket is one of my favorite
possessions.  I would never conceive going hiking, winter or summer
without it.  I would suggest the mountain lite over the mountain jacket
if for nothing else than price.  They are virtually the same jacket, 
only the NF mountain Light is, as the name implies, lighter, thus lending
itself to all season camping.  
   The features on the jacket continue to impress me with their function.
There are flaps and drawcords in places where I have never before seen
them on many 'comparable' jackets.  Once you end up out in a rainstorm 
somewhere, you really begin to appreciate the construction of the 
jacket, obviously designed by people who knew what they were doing.
   I would suggest, however, to wait for a sale, or visit an outlet.
These jackets go on sale very often.  There is a North Face outlet in
Reading, PA where a lot of friends have gotten equipment for half 
price or better.  I personally bought my jacket at "the end of the season"
when prices get dropped as next years things come in.  Be aware, however, 
that the higher level shells do not get outdated each year.  The North
Face has had the same designs for their jackets for quite a few years,.
You will however, end up saving a bundle if you keep an eye out for any 
sort of sale.  I would suggest spending the extra money.  I don't 
think you will be dissapointed.

Martin
sex@brahms.udel.edu

DISCLAIMER:
My opinions are.
From: AS.MSW@forsythe.stanford.edu (Marc Whitney)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Alaska to shoot hundreds of wolves from airplanes
Date: 20 Nov 1992 13:45:00 -0800
Organization: Stanford University
Distribution: usa
NNTP-Posting-Host: morrow.stanford.edu

In article <1992Nov20.183713.25800@news.arc.nasa.gov>,
watson@pioneer.arc.nasa.gov (John S. Watson - FSC) writes:
>
>Trying to tip the balance of nature in favor of the moose and caribous,
>wildlife officials have decided to start shooting wolves from airplanes
>over a huge portion of the Alaska wilderness.
>
>By reducing the number of wolves that prey on big-game animals,
>Alaska wildlife officials hope to produce a bounty for hunters
>and tourists.
>
>'A wildlife spectacle'
>
>"We feel we are going to create a wildlife spectacle
>on a par with the major migrations in East Africa,"
>said David Kelleyhouse, director of the Division of
>Wildlife Conservation.  "Mom and pop from Syracuse can
>come up here and see something that they can't see anywhere
>else on Earth."

THIS PROPOSAL IS A MONUMENT TO HUMAN STUPIDITY!

(Yes, I know all caps is equivalent to shouting.  If Internet let
you specify font size, I would be using aboy 60 point.)

-Marc Whitney
 as.msw@forsythe.stanford.edu
From: mikeq@freddy.CNA.TEK.COM (Mike Quigley)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: USFS Backcountry Fees
Date: 19 Nov 92 18:32:50 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Redmond,  OR.

In article <24076@hacgate.SCG.HAC.COM> tucker@shiva.UUCP (George Tucker) writes:
>
>The Forest Service does provide emergency services and information,

 Information, yes. Emergency services, no. That's provided by county
 search and rescue organizations.

>It isn't going to reduce logging,
>though, unless they see a profit from hikers in logging areas.

 Profits from other sources has no impact on logging. Example:


 In the Deschutes National Forest, the Matsutake mushroom grows only
 off the roots of mature (old growth) ponderosa pine. The Matsutake
 is considered a delicacy overseas, commanding over $100/pound.

 The DNF makes more money off selling permits to harvest the Matsutake 
 than it does from selling the logs to timber companies (at 
 taxpayer subsidized prices).

 EVEN SO, it continues to sell the very logs that these mushrooms
 depend upon for survival.

 Many mycologists fear for the future of the Matsutake because
 all the old growth stands of ponderosa in the DNF will be gone within five
 to 10 years if the present rate of cut continues. Then, 
 no more Matsutakes, and no more old growth ponderosa. 

 It's called the politics of extinction.

 Mike

 (I'd better quit now before I start in on the USFS's cozy ``phantom forest''
  deal with congress! Better enjoy the ancient forests now. They won't
  be there for your kids!)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: sutton@lamar.ColoState.EDU (Rich Sutton)
Subject: New Mexico: Wheeler in Winter??
Summary: what are current conditions
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 23:40:19 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Colorado State University, Fort Collins, CO  80523
Keywords: peak bagging, winter
Followup-To: rec.backcountry


Hello,

I'm wandering down to Las Cruces over Thanksgiving Break and walking
up Wheeler might be a good detour.

Anyone been there recently? What am I in for weather/snow wise?

Any books worth looking at for route descriptions...

Or should I just drop by some mountain shop in Taos to get the word.

Thanks,
Rich
From: kent@netcom.com (Kent Crispin)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Abbey bashing.
Date: 19 Nov 92 02:33:08 GMT
Article-I.D.: netcom.1992Nov19.023308.26635
Distribution: na
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)

In article <1992Nov13.234122.7421@nas.nasa.gov> eugene@wilbur.nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya) writes:
>In article <1992Nov11.151002.10956@news.uiowa.edu>
>donath@herky.cs.uiowa.edu (Matt Donath) writes:
>>True.  I guess my point was -- why is this man idolized?
>
>The man is idolized as a free spirit.  In an increasingly crowded world
>where open space and "true freedom" are become a premium, Abbey represents
>an ideal from an earlier time.  He represents a free will and choice in
>a world full of "Grand Unified Theories."

and

>You got taken in by him being an environmentalist.
>Read Fools Progress.

"The Fools Progress" is a very thought provoking book.  Shortly before
Abbey died I went to a book signing at Cody's books in Berkeley, and
got an autographed copy.  It was sort of a lark, really, because,
while I had read a lot of his works, I don't by any means idolize him.
[By the way, one of the funniest bits I have ever read is his "A Review
of 'Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance'" -- brought tears to my
eyes when I first read it...].

Anyway, I had the book, and felt duty bound to read it.  The story is
about a journey by a main character who is a thinly disguised Abbey.
This character is driven and obsessive, irrational and actually rather
unpleasant.  Gradually, over the course of the journey his life story
is revealed through flashbacks, but for at least the first half of the
book I was struggling to continue -- the hero was basically a jerk
with a mysterious obsession.  I don't want to spoil it for anyone, but
at some point the book grabbed my attention.  My opinion of the book,
which had been somewhat negative, changed remarkably.  Now I think of
it as a *really* good book, like "Crime and Punishment" or "Huckleberry
Finn" or "The Glass Bead Game" -- a potentially great novel.  Of course,
only history will decide whether it is or not.

Anyway, I think it is fair to say that a good percentage of Abbey's 
fans don't "idolize" him -- I certainly don't.  But he had an engaging
sense of humor, a passionate love of life, and enough internal honesty
to be able to expose his contradictions to the world.  I don't think
of him as an idol, I think of him as a friend that I never really met.
I was sad when he died.








-- 
Kent Crispin			"No reason to get excited",
kent@netcom.netcom.com		the thief he kindly spoke...
From: mikeq@freddy.CNA.TEK.COM
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: The overpopulation problem
Date: 18 Nov 92 16:57:42 GMT
Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Redmond,  OR.

This controversy doesn't belong in rec.backcountry. Besides, nature
will level the human overpopulation problem in its own way, 
in due time.

Mike
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: stgprao@st.unocal.COM (Richard Ottolini)
Subject: Re: Backcountry Crowding
Organization: Unocal Corporation
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 17:55:32 GMT

In article <1992Nov22.161127.11177@inmet.camb.inmet.com> daf@inmet.camb.inmet.com (Tony Flanders) writes:
>I have been following the various threads on population growth and its
>effect on the backcountry with some interest and some anger.
>
>Yes, backcountry in the U.S. has become much more crowded in the last few
>decades.  Whether it is has become *too* crowded is a matter of opinion,
>but the increase is a matter of record.  Very little of the increase in
>backcountry use is due to population growth.  Between 1960 and 1990, the
>U.S. population increased from 180,000,000 to 250,000,000.  A 40% increase --
>nothing to sneeze at.  But if backcountry use were 40% greater than in 1960,
>people would hardly have noticed.  I don't have access to any figures,
>but I guess that the increase has been closer to 5-fold.

Not universally.  Permit issues in the Sierra National Parks is less than
half the 1970s peak.  Attributed to aging boomers who have different
recreational habits.
From: dovey@renoir.llnl.gov (Donald Dovey)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Started out as Abbey bashing.
Date: 19 Nov 92 22:41:51 GMT
Reply-To: dovey@renoir.llnl.gov (Donald Dovey)
Organization: Desert Rat Disease Innoculations, Inc.

bh419@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ted B Samsel) writes:
>
>  Here's to ya, Ed!

And here's to all you 4-wheeling, Abbey-reading, desert-ratting,
refrigerator-shooting, cactus-kicking, cairn-piling, canyon-crowding
low-lifes.  Cheers!  (glup.)

--
Don Dovey                                             dovey@llnl.gov


    "But now that we live here in the desert, things are
     much, _much_ better."

                           -- Douglas Coupland
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: pnsf01dw@UMASSD.EDU (Dennis J. Wilkinson)
Subject: Re: When to do The Long Trail?
Reply-To: pnsf01dw@UMASSD.EDU
Organization: UMASS DARTMOUTH, NO. DARTMOUTH, MA.
Distribution: na
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 18:01:10 GMT

In article <Q5k-r*AP2@stile.stonemarche.org>, me@stile.stonemarche.org (Mark Eklof) writes:
>	The two big unknowns for me are when is water usually most
>scarce (I'll have my filter), and when do the bulk of the AT
>through-hikers generally hit the portion of the trail that concides.
>I'm not planning on taking a tent, and don't want to have too much
>contention for shelter space (though I will have something I can rig
>in case I have to spend a night or two in the rain.  Also, does
>Vermont have a blackfly infestation on roughly the same schedule as
>New Hampshire (which depends on how far north one is)? 

I don't know if water is _ever_ scarce in Vermont... I've been hiking in the 
Green Mountains and on the Long Trail for almost ten years now, and I don't 
think I've ever seen dry trails... all too frequently, there's much mud 
(nothing like the mud in Maine, but, hey!). You definitely want a filter or 
other purification device though - the vast majority of the water along the 
Long Trail comes from beaver ponds. 

As far as AT thruhikers, the trickle starts in late June and generally 
increases through to late August, so you stand a chance of running into a few 
just about anytime through the summer. You're far more likely to run into 
shelter contention with weekenders that with thru-hikers (only about 25% of
starting northbound thru-hikers actually make it as far as Vermont, anyway.)

I've never run into large numbers of blackflies in Vermont, or at least nothing
like the numbers I've seen in New Hampshire, but there are almost always large
clouds of mosquitos out there, especially if it's been a wet spring (it's
almost always a wet spring in Vermont...)

Hope this helps....
----------------------------------------------------
Dennis J. Wilkinson, II  (pnsf01dw@umassd.edu)
University of Massachusetts Dartmouth - Design/CS Project

The opinions reflected in this post are MINE!!!! ALL MINE!!!!!
From: hubley-robert@cs.yale.edu (Robert Hubley)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: CANADA CANOEING
Date: 23 Nov 1992 17:54:25 -0500
Organization: Yale University Computer Science Dept., New Haven, CT 06520-2158
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigbird.cf.cs.yale.edu


In article <1992Nov23.022438.845@mwc.vak12ed.edu>, dwaldr@mwc.vak12ed.edu (Deborah A. Waldron) writes:
|> I'm looking for information about 8-12 day canoe trips in
|> eastern Canada. (preferably New Brunswick or Quebec) A perfect
|> trip would have a mix of lakes and whitewater-class II and
|> III.  However, any information would be great.
|> 
|> The trip would be taken in late summer so spring runoff rivers
|> aren't all that useful to me. The more backcountry the better. 
|> 
|> Thanks. Either post info here or send it to me at
|> dwaldr@mwc.vak12ed.edu
|> 
|> 
|> Deb waldron

Deborah,

  Two years ago I took a canoe trip to Algonquin(sp?) Provincial Park.  It
was about a 5-6 hour drive from upper-state NY (Postdam, NY).  It was some
of the most spectacular flat water canoeing I had ever done.  The park is
huge and most of it is lakes, ponds, and rivers ( I am not sure if there
is an white water though).  Most of it is connected so you can make a long
(week or two) trip without too much portaging.  

  The park has maps that list all the portage routes and help suggest
a route if you are not sure where to go.  We went to the southern half
of the park on are trip.  If you are interested in more information I 
might be able to dig up the stuff I gathered when I went there.

Robert Hubley
Systems Programmer
Yale University Computer Science Dept.
(203) 624-2875
-- 
Robert M. Hubley
Systems Programmer
Yale University Computer Science Dept.
New Haven, CT 05611