From: snail@lsl.co.uk
Newsgroups: uk.misc
Subject: Re: Transport subsidies - Was: Car Parking
Date: 16 Dec 92 10:46:03 GMT
Distribution: uk
Organization: Laser-Scan Ltd., Cambridge

In article <Ps4TVB21w165w@mantis.co.uk>, mathew@mantis.co.uk (mathew) writes:
> snail@lsl.co.uk writes:
>> In article <29432@castle.ed.ac.uk>, fofp@castle.ed.ac.uk (M Holmes) writes:
>> > ~If they want or
>> > ~need (shock) to go somewhere, how are they going to do it?
>> 
>> *NEED* to go somewhere, and they haven't the resources (money to you and I) t
>> pay for it. Currently they can get in a car (assuming they have one) and driv
>> it there.
> 
> Hang on a minute -- if they haven't any money, where did they get the car
> from?

Maybe they had the car before they ran out of money. Maybe they had the car 
before they were prevented from using the roads. Some people!

> Are you suggesting that in a free market, with people paying for resources
> they use, travel by *all* means will be prohibitively expensive?  More
> expensive than the cost of running a car now?  More expensive than the money
> they won't be being taxed to pay for the roads?  If so, on what reasoning do
> you base this assertion?

Well, just looking at the current economic miracle is quite a good
justification of this.

> 
>>         If they have to pay for all the roads they use and they have no mon
>> to pay they can't get where they *NEED* to go.
> 
> That's nothing -- I have to pay for all the roads I *don't* use.  I never use
> motorways, for example.

But you can get where you need to go. As fofp loves to say, which is fairer?
> 
>>                                            I'm not saying want to go, I'm
>> saying *NEED* to go, ie they may be very ill, or pregnant or whatever. No
>> I'll just let them stay there and die.
> 
> You seem to be assuming that ambulances are impossible in a free market.

Pretty much so, since fofp (and presumably you) says health care will be
provided by charity. Since the people I'm concerned about are the people who
have no money or very little money, I think I'm being a lot more realistic
about the problems such people would face.
> 
>> Again you miss the point. Of course they already pay bus fares and train
>> fares. But if the roads (etc) are toll roads then the bus fare will include
>> a toll fare - that is what I was getting at in the post above.
> 
> However, the bus fare will no longer include road tax, petrol tax or VAT. 
> You have to look at the whole picture.

Well I'm glad you're abolishing VAT, thats a tax on the poor anyway.
> 
>>                                                           In many
>> articles you overlook simple little details like this, because it
>> helps your argument.
> 
> Pot calls kettle black?
> 
>> > Unles you walk or go by bicycle (or, ok, magic carpet) then travel
>> > already costs money. Since money is a measure of resource usage, and
>> > resources are used when you travel, that's not entirely surprising is it?
>> 
>> Why is it that you assume walking or bicycling along a toll road is free?
> 
> Why is it you assume you need to have a built road (and therefore pay a toll)
> in order to cycle or walk?

Ever tried walking across the penines, or across a fen? Or even across a field
in winter?
> 
>> I regard toll roads are more selfish, since it removes peoples individual
>> freedom (that word again) of movement - unless of course they have that key
>> ingredient MONEY.
> 
> Try not having any money for a year.  See how freely you can move.

Precisely my point. Maybe you do understand the argument. 

>> Do you really believe that vendors of products and services (such as health
>> care) wouldn't just push their prices up (out of line with product cost)
>> in order to soak up our extra disposable income?
> 
> They wouldn't all do it.  Unless there was a monopoly or a cartel.  And I
> believe that part of what FoFP is suggesting is that there should be strong
> action taken against monopolies and cartels.

I've never seen such suggestions. I have seen him state that company directors
will have not ltd company protection. That doesn't prevent companies behaving
in a disreputable manner. Money is power, and they'll have more power under
the schemes fofp (and now you) advocate.
-- 
snail@lsl.co.uk      

muso/unix joke: "which debugger do you use?"
                "I use dbx..."
                "Oh really, we use Dolby C..."
Motorola inside.