From: kinch@valve.heart.rri.uwo.ca (Dave Kinchlea)
Subject: Re: Regulation 790
Organization: University of Western Ontario, London, Ont. CA
Distribution: ont
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 20:05:41 GMT

In article <4066@ecicrl.ocunix.on.ca>, clewis@ferret.ocunix.on.ca (Chris Lewis) writes

Once again we see an example of a situation where a `cop may 
think twice about pulling his/her gun and get killed because 
of it'. Well it is just as easy to come up with examples where 
the cop does pull his gun and an innocent person gets shot. My 
point? These scenarioes are ridiculous. Either a situation is 
dangerous enough to pull a gun or it isn't. My own opinion
is that if you are not sure then you shouldn't pull it but even 
if you feel opposite to that I would hope that you would agree 
that you should NOT be thinking `but what about filling out that 
form'. They will get paid for that time and so what IS the big 
deal here? Answer: it is a smoke screen for their real concerns.

|> 
|> [The only other time I've ever seen police with weapons drawn
|> was when about a dozen officers holding their guns in the air went
|> pelting across Dundas St in front and behind our car.  Several
|> hours later we were able to ask a beat cop what had happened.
|> An officer was trying to arrest someone, when he got knocked
|> down, and in the confusion, his partner put in an "officer needs
|> assistance" call]

Isn't it interesting how the police treat this kind of call differently
from others? For me it is just this kind of thing that allows such
a mistrust of the police, they are MUCH more interested in the crime
when `one of their own' is involved. The DO treat some situations differently,
we all know that, given that the question becomes `are certain people
in more danger than others because of this AND is this reasonable'? 
We can't answer that now, we don't have enough information. Reg. 790 MAY 
just provide us with (some of) that information.

|> 
|> The police have a bad enough job, without being continually being
|> bureaucratically harassed in order to appease cop-haters.  I'd
|> never accept such distrust in my job.  They have nothing but my
|> respect for putting up with it as much as they have.  That being
|> said, as in all areas, there are occasionally some "bad apples",
|> so some oversight is justified.  As long as the review boards don't
|> get filled by people with political agendas.  But that's precisely
|> what seems to be happening.

That doesn't seem to be happening as far as I can see (although
I do wonder about Susan Eng somewhat, that is just ONE appointment
though).

|> 
|> Apparently the Ontario Government is willing to add something to the
|> proposed legislation saying that the information from the forms cannot
|> be used in disciplinary actions.  Aside from my thought on how any
|> such a provision would have any effect whatsoever, the Police Union
|> quite rightly asked "Then why do the forms at all!?"
|> 
|> Can anybody explain what good filling out these forms would do?
|> Most of the pro-790 arguments have, so far, been "obedience to authority"
|> arguments.  I've not seen any solid reasons for the forms themselves.
|> -- 
|> Chris Lewis; clewis@ferret.ocunix.on.ca; Phone: Canada 613 832-0541
|> Psroff 3.0 info: psroff-request@ferret.ocunix.on.ca
|> Ferret list: ferret-request@ferret.ocunix.on.ca

IF (notice I said IF) there is indeed a systemic problem with police 
pulling their guns in inappropriate situations then (hopefully) these 
reports will show/prove it. Perhaps this will provide the necessary
evidence to convince people that there is (or is not) a problem. That
being said, I think that the forms SHOULD be available for disciplinary 
actions, the question is (as far as I am concerned) who should be allowed
to instigate such an action.
 

I see this argument as having two distinct sides: those who instictively
trust the police and those who do not. I have reasons of my own not
to trust them and I am sure that others have their own reasons for
trusting them. It seems quite unlikely that anyone could provide me with
reasons that I should trust the police (unequivically anyway) and I have
no intention of trying to convince others to mistrust the police and so I 
can't see how this debate can be resolved. I still hold that the filling
out of forms should NOT impede them in their work and (I still feel that)
police job actions should NOT be tolerated (remember, it wasn't just blue
ribbons but refusal to issue some [minor?] traffic tickets as well! That is
some of the police refused to do their job!).

Ah well, I am sure we shall never agree on this ....

cheerskinch
Dave Kinchlea            
email:	 	kinch@valve.heart.rri.uwo.ca
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