HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: fester@island.COM (Mike Fester)
Subject: Re: Morris: more fuel for this debate
Organization: /usr/local/rn/organization
Distribution: na
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1992 19:45:19 GMT

In article <1992Oct8.002712.23016@cs.cornell.edu> tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer) writes:
>In article <1992Oct7.182747.6462@island.COM> fester@island.COM (Mike Fester) writes:
>>In article <1992Oct6.214115.16107@cs.cornell.edu> tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer) writes:

>>>Mike, I've said it before and I'll say it again.
>
>>>Random error.  When you are working with a sample set of size ~35,
>>>*no* statistics are going to be very precise.  Maybe if Jim Abbott

>>Then how relevant are, really, in evaluating an individual's performance if
>>as you say "with a sample set of size ~35, *no* statistics are going to be 
>>very precise"? 

>How relevant are what?  W-L records?  THEY AREN'T!!!!  That's what
>I've been trying to say all along!  How relevant is ERA?  Somewhat

Uh, then why bother saying Abbott's record SHOULD have been xx-xx? Why are
you even bothering with this Pythagorean nonsense, if you are simply going
to argue with the results.

>better.  For ERA, you compute over a couple hundred innings.  Enough
>so that you can be reasonably certain that a 1 point difference is
>significant.  But the sample size for W-L records is only one seventh
>the size.  Small enough so that a difference of five wins can easily
>just be random error.

>>>gets the same ERA/run support next year, he will achieve a 8-14
>>>record.  Maybe he'll even get lucky and be 9-13.  And a 9-13 record is

>>BTW, his RS/9 was about the same as his ERA; he should have been about a
>>.500 pitcher.

>Wrong.  You have to compute on RA, not ERA.  And (because of the
>generally shoddy defense of the Angels), his RA was over 3.  He should

It was 3.11. He gave up *8* unearned runs. Morris, with the "excellent" 
defense behind him, gave up 6.

>have been 9-13.  He was 7-15.  Maybe he is a "loser".  Or maybe he was
>just a little bit unlucky.  Statistics on 35 starts are about as
>significant as statistics on 35 AB.  They aren't.

Then why bother to compute them and point to such nonsense as "Morris WOULD 
have had THIS record if he'd gotten xxx run support."?  Hey Fisher you and
Nelson brought THIS one up and NOW you are complaining that it's not 
significant. I merely pointed out that Abbott, with a much better ERA (or
RA, thake your pick) had almost as bad a record as "Black Jack" would have
been PROJECTED to have had. 

>>Now, he doesn't HAVE a 9 - 13 record, does he? And even THAT wouldn't be 
>>very impressive for a pitcher who gets about as much as he gives up.

>Just in case anybody missed it the first time, this is wrong.  Abbott
>gave up significantly more runs than he got in support.

Just in case YOU missed it, it was not THAT many more; *I* sent you the stats,
remember? He had a 3.11 RA or 73 runs. He got 62. He'd really have to 
space them right (or wrong) to end up with a 7 - 15 record.

Mike
-- 
Disclaimer - I'm only doing what the little voices tell me to do. 
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: chico@athena.mit.edu (Thomas A Weston)
Subject: Re: Announcer's call of NLCS
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 23:07:42 GMT

In article <1992Oct15.145350.22462@galileo.cc.rochester.edu>, doli@troi.cc.rochester.edu (David Oliver) writes:
|> On ESPN this morning they replayed Skip Caray's (sp?) call of the final hit.
|> Unfortunately I was on the phone and didn't quite get it at the beginning
|> it started out like:
|> Her'e's the pitch. It's lined into. One run scores. Here comes Bream...Here comes the throw...HE's SAFE!!!!!
|> and then the part I remember:
|> 
|> "THE BRAVES WIN THE PENNANT!...THE BRAVES WIN THE PENNANT!...THE BRAVES WIN
|> THE PENNANT!...THEN BRAVES WIN THE PENNANT!...THE BRAVES WIN THE PENNANT!!!!"
|> 
|> Hmmmmmm, sounds familiar?
What else would you expect from those announcers?  The collection of braves
commentators has got be the most pathetic on earth.
From: demers@cs.ucsd.edu (David DeMers)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: YOU make the call!
Date: 14 Oct 92 02:30:16 GMT
Organization: =CSE Dept., U.C. San Diego

In article <Ahn-131092104902@branford-college-node.net.yale.edu> Ahn@pop.cis.yale.edu (Eugene R. Ahn) writes:
>OK baseball buffs. It's time for Euge's Wacked Out "You make the Call"

>I had a dream that I was thrown out at home after trying to score from
>third on a fly ball to the OF. I actually crossed the plate well before the
>ball came to home, but apparently I had left third too early. 

... The refs ruled that I had left third right after the ball bounced
>off his glove but way before he had actually caught the ball. 

>Thus I had left 3rd too early and was out. 

...

>Were the refs right?

No.  Don't have a rulebook handy, but I've been involved in
this play.  You are entitled to vacate your base after the
ball is first touched by a fielder.  The fact that it was 
bobbled is not relevant.

-- 
Dave DeMers			 ddemers@UCSD   demers@cs.ucsd.edu
Computer Science & Engineering	C-014		demers%cs@ucsd.bitnet
UC San Diego					...!ucsd!cs!demers
La Jolla, CA 92093-0114	(619) 534-0688, or -8187, FAX: (619) 534-7029
From: kubey@sgi.com (Ken Kubey)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: NLCS Game #5 at 9: 41
Date: 12 Oct 92 19:00:19 GMT
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc., Mountain View, CA

In article <1992Oct12.170357.5813@cs.cornell.edu> tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer) writes:
>In article <7519@blue.cis.pitt.edu.UUCP> psg+@pitt.edu (Paul S Galvanek) writes:
>>What Bonds' walk(s) prove IMHO is that with out the proper person
>>hitting behind you (oh that nasty protection thing again) a walk can
>>be as equally vaulable to the pitcher, and some times more so, as it
>>is to a hitter.
>
>This is bullshit.  

Yet another case of a SDCN swearing at a non-SDCN, tsk tsk :-)

>Any time a BB is beneficial to the pitcher, the
>pitcher should issue an intentional walk.  Sometimes (like with Bonds
>batting, runner on third) a BB doesn't hurt very much.  But if it
>actually *helped* the pitcher, he would issue it intentionally.

Have you ever heard of a semi-intentional walk or pitching around a batter?
You throw Bonds a few bad pitches, either he swings at a bad pitch
and gets himself out (see NLCS games 1-4) or he takes the walk.
This strategy has been working pretty well for Atlanta so far.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Name:       Ken Kubey  or  QB   |  Reading, editing or printing of this text
Address:    kubey@sgi.com       |  without the express written consent of
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----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: f67700241@violet.ccit.arizona.edu (Greg Franklin)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Morris: more fuel for this debate
Date: 11 Oct 92 21:45:29 GMT
Distribution: na,local
Organization: University of Arizona
Nntp-Posting-User: f67700241

In Game 4 of the ALCS, with the Jays up 2 games to 1 and looking to
deal a killing blow to the A's, Jack Morris was taken out of the
game in the 5th inning, leaving two men on with one out.  Toronto
trailed 5-1.

Any bets on whether Cito will start him in Game 7?
-- 
Greg "Mockingbird" Franklin      Interviewer: "Sir, how do you spell relief?"
f67700241@ccit.arizona.edu               Dan: "R-O-L-A-I-D-S-E."

"[George Bush is] the most ruthless white man in the history of the planet."
	-- Richard Ben Cramer, author of _What It Takes_
"The President scores much better than Bill Clinton."
	-- Dan, comparing Bush's record of marital infidelity to Clinton's
From: pablo@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Pablo A Iglesias)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Runs Created
Date: 10 Oct 92 14:06:13 GMT
Organization: HAC - Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore

In article <1992Oct10.010354.1776@leland.Stanford.EDU> claudius@leland.Stanford.EDU (Nelson Lu) writes:
>In article <1992Oct9.222139.24162@leland.Stanford.EDU> roberts@leland.Stanford.EDU (John Jacob Roberts) writes:
>>Could someone please post the runs created formula?  A Bill James version
>>is preferred if (showing my ignorance here) there are others available.
>>Thanks in advance.
>
>If I got it remembered right... :-)
>
>A = (TB + .26 * (BB + HB - IBB) + .52 * (SB + SF + SH)))
>B = (H + BB + HB - CS - GDP)
>C = (AB + BB + HB + SF + SH)
>
>RC = A * B / C


Could someone explain to me the rationale for including
GIDP in th "B" formula?  Yes, the batter is creating two
outs in his at bat, but to me it seems that we are penalizing
him for hitting ground outs with men on base.  We don't
give him credit for advancing men on base, so in this way
it seems somewhat unfair.


-- 
Pablo
From: kubey@sgi.com (Ken Kubey)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Weird day at the ballparks
Date: 12 Oct 92 05:39:07 GMT
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc., Mountain View, CA

What is going on?

Eck blows a save.
Morris gets shelled again.
Avery gets shelled in Three Rivers where he had two 1-0 wins in the LCS.
Bonds got a hit when it counted.

And two "did you notice" notes:
Sean McDonough (sp?) sounds a lot like Bob Costas.
Jim Kaat mentioned Gibson's HR about 10 seconds before Alomar's blast.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Name:       Ken Kubey  or  QB   |  Reading, editing or printing of this text
Address:    kubey@sgi.com       |  without the express written consent of
Disclaimer: the usual           |  Major League Baseball is prohibited.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: TJFAN@watson.ibm.com
Subject: Re: World-Series ...... Jays have the edge
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1992 17:47:37 GMT
News-Software: IBM OS/2 PM RN (NR/2) v0.14 by O. Vishnepolsky and R. Rogers
Reply-To: TJFAN@WATSON.IBM.COM
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

In  <Bw6K9B.Ez7@ns1.nodak.edu>  sivaram@plains.NoDak.edu (Sivaram Hariharan ) writes:
> 
> The Braves have this advantage of Home-field, but how far
> that counts, I do not know. With the HF in the NLCS, they
> almost lost to the Pirates. 
> 
But since 1985, all the WS were won by the teams who had the
home-field advantage. Just statistics. I'd like to see a
Canadian team to win the WS, though. 
***********************************************
  T. J. FAN, IBM T. J. Watson Research Center
***********************************************
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: kevin@traffic.den.mmc.com (Kevin Rodgers)
Subject: Re: The origin of the _World_ Series
Keywords: history world series trivia newspaper
Organization: Martin Marietta Western Internal Systems, Technical Operations
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 22:04:55 GMT

In article <-7np#jg@lynx.unm.edu> kbos@carina.unm.edu (Kurt "Some Guy" Bose) writes:
>According to Neft & Cohen, in 1903, Barney Dreyfus, owner of the Pittsburgh
>Pirates, and Henry Killilea, owner of the Boston Red Sox, agreed to match their
>pennant winning clubs in a nine game series to determine the championship of
>the world.  The moniker of "World" Series has stuck ever since.  No mention of
>the New York World newspaper anywhere.

I'm pretty sure the leftmost sign behind the left field wall at Three
Rivers says "World Champions, 1901".  What's the explanation?
-- 
Kevin Rodgers				kevin@traffic.den.mmc.com
Martin Marietta MS A16401		(303) 790-3971
116 Inverness Dr. East
Englewood CO 80112 USA			GO BUFFS!
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: W.Friesen@pharm.utas.edu.au (William Friesen)
Subject: TV distribution world series
Organization: University of Tasmania
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 03:58:16 GMT

I am an expatriate Canadian living in Hobart, Tasmania, Australia.  
There is one commercial television station here which has a monopoly and
refuses to broadcast the World Series even it is being broadcast to 
Australia and gets as far as Melbourne (less than 1000 Km away).

This must be one of the few places in the civilised world which does not 
have access to this event due to very restrictive Australian broadcast 
over regulation.

Go Jays!
From: gritter@cs.purdue.EDU (Carl R. Gritter)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: NLCS Game 7:  What an ending!
Date: 15 Oct 92 05:47:48 GMT
Organization: Department of Computer Science, Purdue University

Braves score 3 in the 9th to win the game 3-2 and the series 4-3.

I feel sorry for the Pirates and Doug Drabek as they played their
hearts out.  Drabek had a shutout for 8 innings but ran out of gas and
Pirates bullpen couldn't hold a 2-0 lead.

Its going to be one heck of a World Series between the Jays and Braves!

Carl
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: mcclure@cats.ucis.vill.edu (MCCLURE HAROLD)
Subject: WHAT HAPPENED LAST YEAR IN NCLS GAME 5?
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.4-b1  
Organization: Villanova University
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 20:54:00 GMT

Just read the Philly Inquirer report of last night's game. They had an 
incomplete report of the bottom of the ninth leaving out Hunter's flyout
making it 2 outs before Caberra's bat. Now talk about bad reporting; not only
inaccurate but also misses the drama.

They also said that last year's game 7 in the NCLS was won 1-0. Is my memory
failing me or wasn't the score 4-0? I thought I recalled Smoltz being given a 
nice cushion with 3 runs in the top of the first. Maybe the press starved
citizens of Pittsburgh are lucky. They might read about the game in E-mail or 
hear rumors which have to beat the crack Philly newspaper reports!!
From: doctor8@jhuvms.hcf.jhu.edu (Jason Abner Miller)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Eck Chokes Again!!
Date: 13 Oct 92 23:27:00 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: The Johns Hopkins University - HCF
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <1992Oct13.185926.11082@cs.cornell.edu>, tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer) writes...
> 
>Exby must be a stathead...  Being publicly insulting on the net.
> 
>Sure, Thigpen had 57 saves in 1990.  He also had a 4-6 record with
>*eight* blown saves.  Eckersley this year had "only" 51 saves.  But
>then, he only blew three.  And had a 7-1 record.
> 
>Thigpen '90	4-6 W-L, 1.83 ERA, 88.2 IP, 57-8 Sv-BS
>Eckersley '92	7-1 W-L, 1.91 ERA, 80 IP, 51-3 Sv-BS
> 
>It's quite debatable which of the two had the better season.  But
>Eck's team won the division.  Thigpen's didn't.  Personally, I think
>that Eck's 1990 season beats both.  An 0.61 ERA, 48 Sv, 4-2 record, in
>73.1 IP.  Anybody know how many (few?) blown saves?  He only gave up 9
>runs (earned *and* unearned) all year, so he can't have had too many.
> 
	Yes, Pigpen had 57 saves.  Doesn't mean he had the better year.  If
Jeff "No Managerial Instincts Whatsoever" Torborg pitches you every day down
the stretch (65 save opps), you're obviously going to save many games.  And
blow many saves.  
	Face it, Thigpen never was as dominant as the Eck.  After '90, he
went to pot, and has already lost his job.  In '90, Eck blew TWO saves all
year.  48 for 50, children - that's a damn impressive stat.  In many ways,
better than he was this year.
	And Eck has been baseball's dominant reliever since 1987 (sorry, fans
of Jeff Reardon).  Thigpen had one year which then went on to hurt his whole
career.  Eck is still dominant, and no matter what happened with Alomar the
other day, he's still the man.

							Jason Miller
"Well, since Noboa is batting .500 lifetime against Dennis Martinez, it made
more sense to play him at second base today than Randolph"
				- Jeff Torborg, "How Not to Manage a Baseball
							Team"
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: World Series needs 'World' distribution !
From: C.K.Black@massey.ac.nz (C.K. Black)
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 92 06:17:11 GMT
Organization: Massey University, Palmerston North, New Zealand
Summary: Results needed
X-Reader: NETNEWS/PC Version 2c

G'day All,
   I am hoping that the postings distribution will be set to "world"
now that the World Series is on.  This is just a plea from the poor 
souls such as myself way down under.   Without the netnews the best 
that I can hope for is a week or longer delay until we get a boxscore
in the paper and maybe, if we are real nice, we get to see a 3 minute
clip from the final game on the Sunday sports T.V. highlights.  
Thanks in advance guys,  hey...  I'm backing the Jay's,  but the bottom
line is  Let's Play Ball  !!!!       Cheers..............

-- 
Conrad Black 

Email... C.K.Black@massey.ac.nz
Snail... Massey U., Plant Sc. Dept., Palmerston North, New Zealand
From: (Gerry Gryschuk)
Subject: Re: TORONTO BLUE JAYS CLINCHED THE AL EAST!!!!!
Organization: University of Saskatchewan
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1992 03:22:33 GMT

From article <2AD7B52C.6F29@telly.on.ca>, by evan@telly.on.ca (Evan Leibovitch):
> PS. With Key and Stottlemyre in the bullpen, why in heaven's name would
> Cito put Timlin in the eighth inning of game 3?
> 

I criticize Cito all the time but he doesn't deserve it for that move. For 
starters Key is a lefty and the A's apparently eat them for breakfast. Even
given that Key has pitched real well recently he hasn't pitched in over a
week and there simply isn't any reason to throw him into a late inning relief
spot unless it was to face a left handed batter.

As far as Stottlemyre goes he hasn't pitched very well all year but he also
seemed to be coming around at least until his last start. However remember
Todd hasn't pitched in almost two weeks because of his suspension.

Lastly since it was a short relief situation you should bring in your pitchers
who are supposed to specialize in those. No need bringing in a starter who
doesn't have the experience of pitching short relief when you have an adequate
short relief man already. Sure Timlin didn't do what was asked of him but
Cito did the right thing giving him a chance.

So go ahead and bash Cito, God knows there's usually plenty of reasons to
but this time Cito did the right thing Timlin just let him down.
--
Gerald Gryschuk            Saskatoon,Saskatchewan = a place with 9 months
gerry@sask.usask.ca           of hockey and 3 months of poor skating.
Go Habs!!!
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: colin@ug.cs.dal.ca (Colin Edward Mac Donald)
Subject: Felipe Alou
Organization: Math, Stats & CS, Dalhousie University, Halifax, NS, Canada
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 12:18:09 GMT


	Does anyone have the carrer playing stats of future NL Manager of
	the Year Felipe Alou?
	Did he have any brothers or cousins who played?

	Thanks muchly,
		Colin Mac D.
		colin@ug.cs.dal.ca
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: mcclure@wild.ucis.vill.edu (MCCLURE HAROLD)
Subject: RE: Pirates Fans
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.4-b1  
Organization: Villanova University
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 18:16:00 GMT

Not to stir more flame-baiting, but I have one comment in re the Pirates fans
most evident at the game Saturday. Let me preface my comments that when I first
visited Pittsburgh, I was very pleasantly surprised. Maybe, what I saw was very
unrepresentative, but the rest of you loyal Pirates fans should not encourage 
the following:

(1) the drunkards in the rightfield area saying "Nixon is butt-ugly" (even
though they are factually) correct and yelling druggie; the man had a serious
problem yes and give the Braves organization the credit for hanging with him
rather than dumping him like most of the rest of society would.

(2) Justice "sux", "fuck" Justice. I can remember the worst of the Dodgers fan
reaction to Kevin Murphy in the early 1980's being a lot cleaner than that and
yet Dodger stadium stopped selling beer in rightfield because of the problem.

(3) "CHOP THIS". Some of the E-mail Pirates fans seem to love this one too, but
do not appreciate my misspelling of Timmy boy's name (yes, I know it's 
Wakefield). I would much rather post "BRAVERY YES; PIRACY NO"...and please
don't remind me of the Tomahawk stuff; it's done to death and I'm not a major
fan of using an FSU chant so close to the Georgia Tech campus.

(4) The worst saturday night was the incessant throwing of garbage onto the
outfield during the game. Isn't there some other place in the Pittsburgh area
to litter? Don't do it downtown because you have a beautiful downtown area, but
please let the people who came to watch the Bucs play ball enjoy themselves
without this childish nonsense. 

Again, any apologies for the majority of the true baseball fans in Pittsburgh; 
just do something about the drunkyards in Three Rivers and no pandering 
garbage like "CHOP THIS". Baseball is sold as a family game.  
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: g_waugaman@nac.enet.dec.com (Glenn R. Waugaman)
Subject: Re: Pittsburg Fans
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 21:45:58 GMT


In article <92287.090135IOR@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>, Thomas Hyer <IOR@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> writes...
>
>  In fact, the Pirates would have outdrawn both New York teams
>*combined* by this inane measure, even if both had sold out every
>home game.  So?

True, but even with the newspaper strike, in raw attendance the Pirates
outdrew both the Yankees and the Mets this season (and God only knows how
low the Yankees' attendance would be if based on actual attendance and not
tickets sold, as in the NL).  I agree with the original point-- that's
pathetic support for baseball for a metro area of almost 20 million
people.  You'd think those teams would come close to selling out in season
tickets alone, as the LA Dodgers would if they didn't limit the season
ticket count and reserve tickets on a single-game basis.  But on the
contrary, the Mets have dropped almost a *million* in attendance in the
last two years, to be outdrawn even by other bad teams in much smaller
cities, like Philadelphia. 

---
Glenn Waugaman
Digital Equipment Corporation
Littleton, MA
g_waugaman@nac.enet.dec.com
---
From: doli@troi.cc.rochester.edu (David Oliver)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Announcer's call of NLCS
Date: 15 Oct 92 14:53:50 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: University of Rochester (Rochester, NY)

On ESPN this morning they replayed Skip Caray's (sp?) call of the final hit.
Unfortunately I was on the phone and didn't quite get it at the beginning
it started out like:
Her'e's the pitch. It's lined into. One run scores. Here comes Bream...Here comes the throw...HE's SAFE!!!!!
and then the part I remember:

"THE BRAVES WIN THE PENNANT!...THE BRAVES WIN THE PENNANT!...THE BRAVES WIN
THE PENNANT!...THEN BRAVES WIN THE PENNANT!...THE BRAVES WIN THE PENNANT!!!!"

Hmmmmmm, sounds familiar?

-David Oliver
SIGN KIRBY PUCKETT!!!