HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: backstrom@ranger.enet.dec.com (ranger::backstrom)
Subject: RE: TCP/IP transport for PATHWORKS
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1992 05:02:45 GMT
X-Posted-Via: NEWS-NOTES gateway (a hack!)

>                             mberman@Williams.EDU
>                        TCP/IP transport for Pathworks
>
> I am curious about two somewhat mutually exclusive things: I understand that
> the TCP transport that comes with Pathworks IP is the FTP Software stack.
> What is the difference between what you get buying it from DEC and what you
> get buying it from FTP Software? 

    The PATHWORKS for DOS (TCP/IP) V2.0 stack is based on 3Com TCP w/DPA for
    DOS and Windows Workstations V2.0 (V1.1A was 3Com's V1.2, V1.1 was 3Com's
    V1.1, V1.0 was 3Com's V1.0). I.e. it is not FTP's stack.

    PW4DOS (TCP/IP) does not include 3Com's Sun-RPC, BAPI DLL for Windows or
    the TN3270 terminal emulator.    
    
    ...petri (backstrom@ranger.enet.dec.com)
       Personal Computing Integration Engineering
       Digital Equipment Corporation
From: yingling@gw.wmich.edu
Newsgroups: vmsnet.networks.desktop.pathworks
Subject: Re: Accounting (printer use)
Date: 5 Sep 92 08:52:31 EST
Organization: Western Michigan University

In article <1992Sep3.195139.1485@aber.ac.uk>, ckw0@aber.ac.uk (Carl Keri 
Williams) writes:
> 
> I'd appreciate it if anyone could give me any advice on keeping track 
> of accounting information for individual users or groups of Pathworks users.

> (E-mail replies to carl@uk.ac.lampeter rather than this Aber address for 
> preference, please - I'll summarise if there's enough interest)

The direct reply address wouldn't work 8-(

The most straightforward way to account for printer use is to make the user 
attach to the printer with a username/password.  If you have a public lab 
set-up which does not require username/password entries (and/or they have not 
been created) this might prove to be more difficult.

If your users already have accounts (and, optionally, have been assigned to 
groups) then this will be much easier to set-up; further if you are using 
the LOGON approach to attach to the server it would be very easy to 
incorporate extra lines to associate the username with the printer...this is 
because there is already an association between the username/password and 
the access to other services with data stored in environment variables for 
username/password..all you need to do is borrow that data and make it do 
the work you want it to do.  You may even associate a username with a printer 
despite having PUBLIC access to it.

Example:

Following are environment variables and the data they contain:

  VAR     DATA
  ===     ====

_USRNM   JONES
_PSWRD   4JULBA5

You might be able to use the following syntax to connect to printing services 
in a .BAT file (LOGON.BAT or something called by it before the environment 
variables are erased):

	USE LPT1: \\NODENAME\PRINT-SVC-NAME%%%_USRNM% %_PSWRD%
	USE LPT2: \\NODENAME\PRINT-SVC-NAME2%%%_USRNM% %_PSWRD%

When you look at the connections established with the USE command you will 
see something close to the following:

LPT1:    \\NODENAME\PRINT-SVC-NAME%JONES
LPT2:    \\NODENAME\PRINT-SVC-NAME2%JONES

If you have header pages on your printouts, the header sheets will contain 
the actual username; the accounting program will count based on username.  
This will not help obtain statistics on printers attached directly to the 
PC.

Hope this helps.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Ralph N. Yingling, Director	  yingling@hcob.wmich.edu  (Internet)
College Computing Services
Haworth College of Business   --  Western Michigan University
Kalamazoo, MI 49008		  (616) 387-5356
                                  YES, There really IS a Kalamazoo!
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Newsgroups: vmsnet.networks.desktop.pathworks
From: anything@max.u.washington.edu
Subject: Int14 w/LAT LATCOM etc..
Organization: 
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 17:03:24 GMT

I am looking for a product called LATCOM or any other product that would
let me use my LAT modem services with common PC terminal emulators. Can
anyone direct me to these products?

Don Levinson
Anything@max.u.washington.edu
From: MLUCI@FUEL.ABB.COM (Mark Lucia 2915)
Newsgroups: vmsnet.networks.desktop.pathworks
Subject: RE: Printing from local applications through Pathworks
Date: 10 Sep 92 21:14:00 GMT
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Posting-date: 10 Sep 1992 16:17:00 -0500 (EST)
Importance: normal
Priority: non-urgent
X-Hop-count: 1
A1-type: MAIL


       I've been using a Pathworks printer for sometime, and found that
       in a lot of cases, the print job is NOT submitted to the printer
       until the application is closed. I've not taken the time to try
       and find out why.
 
       Mark Lucia	mluci@fuel.abb.com
Newsgroups: vmsnet.networks.desktop.pathworks
Subject: RE: Printing from local applications through Pathworks
From: bachism <BACHISM@JHUDEV.DEV.JHU.EDU>
Date: 10 Sep 1992 17:25:23 -0400
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
X-Vmsmail-To: SMTP%"LANWORKS%MIAMIU.BitNet@pucc.PRINCETON.EDU"

IF THE APPLICATION IS NOT NETWORK COMPATABLE, ONE WAY AROUND IT IS TO SEND A
BLANK TEXT JOB TO THE PRINTER TO FORCE THE JOB TO PRINT USING THE NET PRINT
COMMAND TO THAT DEVICE.  MAYBE YOU CAN MODIFY THEIR BATCH FILES TO
AUTOMATICALLY SEND THE JOB.
 
(JOB WON'T PRINT UNTIL YOU QUIT THE APPLICATION OR SEND A NETWORK PRINT)
I HAD THIS PROBLEM WITH AN OLD VERSION OF ORG PLUS AND EASY CAD
From: br197@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Michael T. Gercevich)
Newsgroups: vmsnet.networks.desktop.pathworks
Subject: Re: PathWorks and T1
Date: 8 Sep 1992 19:45:21 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: br197@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Michael T. Gercevich)
NNTP-Posting-Host: slc10.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, lbmoore@TCHDEN.ORG ("Louis B. Moore") says:

>We are considering running PathWorks 4.1 over a T1 link to VAX/VMS 5.5
>servers.
> 
>Have any of you tried it?
> 
>How has this worked for you?
> 
>Are there any pitfalls or limitations we need to look out for?
> 
> 
> Louis B. Moore                      Internet: lbmoore@tchden.org
> Systems Programmer                  Phone:    +1 303 837 2513
> The Children's Hospital of Denver   Denver, Colorado USA 80218
>

I am running Pathworks 4.1 over a T1 and also over a Fractional T1.
There a lot of drawbacks.  

We are using a Vitalink III lanbridge so that we can run LAT over the 
links in an extended LAN configuration.  

You may connect to file/print services through DECNET.  Any high-speed
protocol is unsupported over a bridge.  That means no LAD, LAST or
Lansess is supported over bridges.  I had tried to run a database
off a file service over a T1.  About 300% slower than on the LAN.

Pathworks over a T1 is good for simple file x-fers and low I/O applications.

Mike Gercevich
PC/Network Analyst -- Squire Sanders & Dempsey
(216)687-3452

br197@cleveland.freenet.edu
From: chiam@VULCAN.CBA.OHIOU.EDU (Ta Fuh Chiam)
Newsgroups: vmsnet.networks.desktop.pathworks
Subject: RE: Suggestions Anyone?
Date: 8 Sep 92 14:46:47 GMT
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

>We took the opportunity to renumber all our PC nodes and apply a consistent
>name/number scheme.  Upon restarting the server, everything came up fine.
>
>A couple of days later, a problem surfaces.  Nobody can connect to any
>services using the %username method, including me.  Nobody can get Read/Write
>access to services which they have been granted.  I spent 5 straight hours on
>the phone Friday with DEC support folks and their only solution was to
>perform a reinstall.
 
What exactly is the error message you are getting? Did you fix the DECnet
database on the PCs?
 
 
============================================================================
Ta Fuh Chiam
Ohio University, College of Business Administration / Phone: (614)593-2088
Management Information Systems                        FAX:   (614)593-0319
Copeland Hall 22                   INTERNET : chiam@vulcan.cba.ohiou.edu
Athens, Ohio 45701, U.S.A.            or    : chiam@ouvaxa.ucls.ohiou.edu
                                   BITNET   : CHIAM@OUACCVMB
                          Use my first Internet address if at all possible.
Disclaimer: What I have said are my opinions, not of anyone else.
============================================================================
From: backstrom@ranger.enet.dec.com (ranger::backstrom)
Subject: RE: SETHOST and Gateway 2000 Anykey KYBD
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1992 05:02:12 GMT
X-Posted-Via: NEWS-NOTES gateway (a hack!)

> What do you do to make SETHOST run properly with the Anykey KYBD?

    You do
    
        SETHOST/KEYBOARD=EPC
        
    or you do
    
        SET NVTLK250=0
        SETHOST
        
    or you press the Macro key to exit the macro programming mode each time
    you fire up SETHOST.
    
    ...petri (backstrom@ranger.enet.dec.com)
       Personal Computing Integration Engineering
       Digital Equipment Corporation
From: RUWHOF@RULBUR.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Peter Ruwhof - Leiden Univ.)
Newsgroups: vmsnet.networks.desktop.pathworks
Subject: RE: Hidden security
Date: 4 Sep 92 12:13:00 GMT
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

> Problem:
> When PathWorks users try to connect to a password protected file service
> several times without luck, they get caught up in the VMS protection scheme
> defined in some of the system parameters like LGI_HID_TIM and maybe some
> other parameters up that alley.
> Unlike regular VMS users ( $ show intrusion ) there appears to be no way for
> the system manager to correct this situation and help known and friendly
> PathWorks users out of these evasive action routines. All you can do is sit
> down and wait for an unknown number of time-outs.
>
> Question:
> Does anyone ( ...petri) know of a method to control and correct this situation
> apart from constant rebooting of the file server to read the system parameters
> that you blindfoldedly tried to change.
 
Workaround: give the user (temporarily) LOCAL access, (let her) log in to her
account (sethost server-node). An interactive login resets the Login Fails
counter in the UAF-record.
 
There are some more improvements in Pathworks' interface to the authorization
mechanism we are waiting for:
- password history checking
- checking against list of 'forbidden' passwords
- encryption of passwords before they are put on the network
 
Peter Ruwhof
system/network manager
University Bureau of the Leiden University
Netherlands
internet:     ruwhof@rulbur.leidenuniv.nl
bitnet/earn:  ruwhof@hlerul5b.bitnet
telephone:    +31 71 273122
telefax:      +31 71 273118
mail:         PO Box 9500, 2300 RA Leiden, Netherlands
From: chiam@VULCAN.CBA.OHIOU.EDU (Ta Fuh Chiam)
Newsgroups: vmsnet.networks.desktop.pathworks
Subject: Pathworks Unsupported kits available on DSNlink SOON
Date: 10 Sep 92 12:51:30 GMT
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

For those of you who have DSNlink access, there has been a discussion on
DECUServe to get DEC to put the Pathworks for DOS unsupported kits on DSNlink in
addition to Compuserv. It will be done soon as you can see from the note I
repost below from DECUServe.
 
Have fun!
 
Ta Fuh Chiam
 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
           <<< EISNER::DUA2:[NOTES$HIVOL]BUSINESS_PRACTICES.NOTE;1 >>>
                            -< Business Practices >-
================================================================================
Note 216.13       Distribution of the Unsupported PATHWORKS kit         13 of 15
EISNER::HYDE "From the laboratory of Dr. Jekyll"     17 lines   9-SEP-1992 13:56
                                 -< so be it! >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
        Sheesh... I don't get here for a week or so and everything falls
        apart! :-)
 
        The current unsupported disks will be available as CSCPAT kits
        on DSNlink before the end of the week. They will be packaged
        as CSCPAT_3056.  V1.0 of the kit will be the current unsupported
        disks as they can be gotten from DECdirect. As I can collect
        some of the other 'nifty' things that are available from
        Compuserve I will fold them into the kit and bump the version
        number. Keep tabs on the CSCPAT_9999 file for when the updates
        occur and I'll post here as well.
 
        I apologize for letting you beat me to the punch on this one.
 
        Mark Hyde
        CSCPAT Coordinator
        USCSC Atlanta
Newsgroups: vmsnet.networks.desktop.pathworks
Subject: LATCOM
From: Alan Cantrell <CANTRELL@VUCTRVAX.BITNET>
Date: 11 Sep 1992 13:54:53 -0500
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

Hi guys,
 
I got a copy of LATCOM from the ftp archive in Australia.  I have made
connections to our VAX using the emulator that is zipped together with
LATCOM, but it always trashes my connection, and I never have connected
using any other emulator.  Other emulators also trash the connection.
When I say trash the connection, I mean leave it with an error status,
and often produces device not ready messages.
 
Has anyone used LATCOM successfully?
 
Alan
Xref: sparky vmsnet.networks.desktop.pathworks:2805 comp.sys.mac.apps:14584
From: eileen@bcvms.bc.edu
Newsgroups: vmsnet.networks.desktop.pathworks,comp.sys.mac.apps
Subject: macx questions
Date: 15 Sep 92 14:15:43 GMT
Organization: Boston College

I am currently using MacX 1.1.7 on a Mac IIci with a 13 inch color monitor.
The monitor is not sufficient for displaying x applications, particularly
in rootless mode. I am thinking of getting Apple's 16 inch Mac color
monitor, but am not sure if that will be adequate either. Does anyone have
any advice? 

Also, ever since we upgraded our VMS systems to 5.5-1 and put Motif up, my
mac is no longer recoginized as a color device. When I use a rooted color
window, I can change the color of my background screen (which defaults to a
b&w cross hatch pattern), but the next time I login it goes back. (Yes, I
am saving the changes). Any ideas? 

Thanks.
Eileen Shepard
Boston College
Eileen@bc.edu
From: WARFORD@UTHSCSA.BITNET
Newsgroups: vmsnet.networks.desktop.pathworks
Subject: RE: FoxPro problems with NetWare Coexistance
Date: 8 Sep 92 15:03:00 GMT
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Original_To:  BITNET%"LANWORKS@MIAMIU.BITNET"

>
>For the last few weeks I've been having serious problems
>running Pathworks and Novell coexistence on two PCs in my
>office. When running Foxpro applications in which Foxpro is
>running on the Novell and the application is accessing data
>in Pathworks, the system will at times hang. Or, it will
>spontaneously reboot.
>
 
Sounds like a similar problem I once had.  Turned out to be a
conflict in upper memory.  Try a little rearranging, just to see
if it goes away.
 
WAR          warford@uthscsa
Newsgroups: vmsnet.networks.desktop.pathworks
Subject: RE: BROADCAST & DOS 5.0
From: bachism <BACHISM@JHUDEV.DEV.JHU.EDU>
Date: 08 Sep 1992 08:12:44 -0400
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
X-Vmsmail-To: SMTP%"LANWORKS%MIAMIU.BitNet@pucc.PRINCETON.EDU"

I had the same problems with Harvard Graphics and Microstation.  When we
questioned a group from DEC the answer we got was that it was a problem
with graphics applications and the broadcast.  I don't know if edit counts as a
graphics application but its possible.  You may want to call them and
see if there are any fixes.  I can't remember the exact reason they gave for
this fluke but I think it had something to do with broadcasts inablility to
return the application to its advanced graphics or something like that.
Newsgroups: vmsnet.networks.desktop.pathworks
Subject: Pathworks for DOS 4.1a
From: hiles Maria Hiles <hiles@CDCLU1.DNET>
Date: 10 Sep 1992 12:01:35 -0100
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

Having just received the Pathworks for DOS 4.1a upgrade and glancing through
the release notes I am wondering if it is worth the effort of installing it.
The majority of the changes seem to be involved with Token Rings - which do not
effect us at all.
 
Are any of the other changes significant enough cause any major problems if I
don't install ?  We haven't noticed any of them so far.  Anyone got any ideas
when 4.2 is due ?
 
Maria Hiles
GenRad Manchester
HILES@CDCLU1.GENRAD.COM
Xref: sparky vmsnet.networks.management.misc:17 vmsnet.misc:814
From: padma@topsy.cs.vt.edu (padma)
Newsgroups: vmsnet.networks.management.decmcc
Subject: Please remove my name from the list
Date: 8 Sep 92 18:16:33 GMT
Reply-To: <decmcc@ralph.rtpnc.epa.gov>
Organization: Environmental Protection Agency
Originator: server@ralph.rtpnc.epa.gov


Please remove my address (padma@topsy.cs.vt.edu) from the DECMCC list.

Padma
From: burton@gw.wmich.edu (Richard)
Newsgroups: vmsnet.networks.management.decmcc
Subject: Unknown exception errors with MCC
Date: 8 Sep 92 13:22:41 EST
Organization: Western Michigan University

While review last months exceptions I came across two (2) errors that I can't
explain.

These are the  "%MCC-E-TRANSMITERROR, error trying to transmit a packet" and
"%MCC-F-STRTDEVERROR,  start Ethernet device failed."  Any information, 
corrections, or fixes would be helpful.

I have attached the actual exception message if that's a help.

****  Exception occurred in rule  MCC 0 ALARMS RULE ACKL10_TS_UNREACHABLE  at  14-AUG-1992 16:57:50.89  ****

    Rule name:     MCC 0 ALARMS RULE ACKL10_TS_UNREACHABLE
    Domain:        Domain THUMPR_NS:.ACKLEY
  Occurred at:     14-AUG-1992 16:57:50.89
     Category:     TS Unreachable
  Description:     Terminal server Down or Unreachable
     Severity:     warning
 
   Expression:     (STATION .TS.ACKL10 Functions Supported <> DEC_ENETV2, AT EVERY 1:0)
    Exception:     The requested operation cannot be completed
                   %MCC-E-TRANSMITERROR, error trying to transmit a packet
                   %SYSTEM-F-DEVREQERR, device request error
 

****  Exception occurred in rule  MCC 0 ALARMS RULE LEFE10_TS_UNREACHABLE  at  19-AUG-1992 12:50:10.18  ****

    Rule name:     MCC 0 ALARMS RULE LEFE10_TS_UNREACHABLE
    Domain:        Domain THUMPR_NS:.LEFEVRE
  Occurred at:     19-AUG-1992 12:50:10.18
     Category:     TS Unreachable
  Description:     Terminal server Down or Unreachable
     Severity:     warning
 
   Expression:     (STATION .TS.LEFE10 Functions Supported <> DEC_ENETV2, AT EVERY 1:0)
    Exception:     The requested operation cannot be completed
                   %MCC-F-STRTDEVERROR,  start Ethernet device failed.
                   %SYSTEM-F-BADPARAM, bad parameter value
 

-- 
Richard E. Burton
Manager, Computer Resources
University Computing Services 	 	    Internet Burton@gw.wmich.edu
Western Michigan University		    Phone         (616) 387-5444
Kalamazoo, Michigan 49008		
Newsgroups: vmsnet.networks.management.decmcc
From: Bob Boyd <rbn>
Subject: Re:  Unknown exception errors with MCC
Originator: server@ralph.rtpnc.epa.gov
Reply-To: <decmcc@ralph.rtpnc.epa.gov>
Organization: Environmental Protection Agency 
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 19:27:38 GMT

>From: burton@gw.wmich.edu (Richard)
>To: Multiple recipients of list <decmcc@ralph.rtpnc.epa.gov>
>Subject: Unknown exception errors with MCC
>
>While review last months exceptions I came across two (2) errors that I can't
>explain.
>
>These are the  "%MCC-E-TRANSMITERROR, error trying to transmit a packet" and
>"%MCC-F-STRTDEVERROR,  start Ethernet device failed."  Any information, 
>corrections, or fixes would be helpful.
>
>
Richard -- I'm not 100 % certain about what causes these errors -- but I've
certainly seen them -- I had assumed(or been told) that they are caused
by problems on the host machine and/or the Ethernet backbone.

Anyone else have more info?

--
Bob Boyd                 
rbn@ralph.rtpnc.epa.gov 
Unisys/EPA
From: murphy@npri6.npri.com (David P. Murphy)
Newsgroups: vmsnet.internals
Subject: Re: PATCH on ALPHA ?
Date: 4 Sep 92 13:50:05 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: NPRI, Alexandria VA



>>I've already worked with miles and miles of machine listings
>>from both the GEM C compiler and the MACRO32 compiler.  I've even found
>>several compiler optimizer bugs.  I know what I'm doing.
>>
>>MILLER@TGV.COM

 >And he's modest too.
 >
 >reece@eco.twg.com (Reece R. Pollack)

oh, bullshit.  patching and analyzing compiled code is not some arcane
mysterious knowledge that mere mortals are not meant to understand;
i know what _i'm_ doing, and i even know when i don't know what i'm doing.
if someone wrote it, someone else can understand it.  sure, it took a while,
but it's a lot easier to learn than some stuff i've had to swallow.

>>Besides, a lot of patches are trivial, like constant changes.  And
>>what if I want to patch some native M64 code?

 >I don't think I'd want to subject my customers to the headache of trying
 >to manage patched images. DEC has been moving away from this as fast as
 >they can, and for good reason. It's much too easy for a customer to mis-
 >type a patch and really screw things up, and if you provide them with a
 >file to do it for them, why not provide them with an updated image?

then DON'T PATCH, if you're so scared.  NPRI has found patch files to be
extremely valuable over the last decade to fix bugs without having to
generate Yet Another Version of all the images we support.  it's very easy
for an NPRI support rep to dialup, login, transfer the .COM file,
perform the PATCH command, reINSTALL the image if necessary, and logout.
our more intelligent clients --- whose existence you seem to doubt ---
are perfectly capable of doing this themselves, which is nothing short
of wonderful when said client is in europe; can't dialup, but the .COM
file can be printed out on our laser and faxed to the client!  try to
beat _that_ kind of turnaround time!  how long would it take to modify the
source code, recompile, relink, *test* the new image, cut a tape, and
physically send the tape across the atlantic?


rule #1 when patching:  always REPLACE instead of DEPOSIT.  this increases
your chances of actually hitting the correct location in the image.

rule #2 when patching:  always use ECO numbers.

rule #3 when patching:  always save the unpatched image for quick cutover
if the patch screws up.


in short, the benefits of patching far outweigh the risks.

ok
dpm
-- 
murphy@npri6.npri.com 602 Cameron St. Alexandria, VA 22314 (703) 683-9090

              When every one is dead the Great Game is finished.  Not before.
                              --- Hurree Babu, "Kim"
From: GAVRON@VESTA.SUNQUEST.COM
Newsgroups: vmsnet.internals
Subject: Get together at DECUS
Date: 10 Sep 92 18:07:23 GMT
Organization: Macro32<==>Vmsnet.Internals Gateway
X-Gateway-Source-Info: Mailing List

Date sent:  10-SEP-1992 11:00:18


        This time let's plan way ahead and spend an evening at dinner
        somewhere with the MACRO32/internals people.

        Please email to ME, not to the list, the following information:

                Name:   who are you
                Email:  what is your email address
                Day:    which days would you have an evening free to dine
                Place:  where would you prefer to eat or what kind of food


        I will send a summary of choices back to this list, and we can
        go from there.  If we all participate NOW we can get this to work
        much better than being crowded in the sro part of a bar like last
        time ;-)

        Ehud

--
Ehud Gavron        (EG76)
gavron@vesta.sunquest.com
"The world bores you when you're cool."
From: MILLER@TGV.COM
Newsgroups: vmsnet.internals
Subject: Re:  Get together at DECUS
Date: 10 Sep 92 22:22:15 GMT
Organization: Macro32<==>Vmsnet.Internals Gateway
X-Gateway-Source-Info: Mailing List


>        This time let's plan way ahead and spend an evening at dinner
>        somewhere with the MACRO32/internals people.

I'll eat anywhere.  I don't know what nights I'll be busy.  DECUS is way
too far off for that...

-b