From: cw@orion.uucp (C.W. Chung)
Subject: Re: My dismay (was: Re: What do you think of Chris Patten)
Organization: Objectivity Inc.
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 92 22:32:47 GMT

In article <1992Dec16.163415.17530@dsg.tandem.com> leung@DSG.Tandem.COM (Steven Leung) writes:
>
>cw@orion.uucp (C.W. Chung) writes:
>
>|> ... IMHO, the democracy of
>|> HK is really linked to the democratic process in China, and you are
>|> going to have a lot of resistance from the Chinese leaders if HK
>|> moves way in front of China.                               ooooo
>   ooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
>
>HAHaha. Are Chinese leaders really so narrow-minded as you said? HK
>already "moves way in front of China" in many aspects such as econ.
>dev., living standard, political openness, ... So what other areas
>HK must not "move way in front of China"? Could you give us a list
>once and for all so that we won't make such stupid mistakes?

I thought the context is pretty clear that it is democracy that I 
was talking about.

>|> The economic development and the loosening of political grip in China
>                            ???oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
>|> is nothing short of astounding. ...

>I don't question about the econ. dev. part, but I wonder how you derive
>this "loosening of political grip" dev. from, say, the recent 14th CCP
>congress. There are indeed reports about improvement of the conditions
>of some dissidents' sprouses, but they are exactly the signs that outside
>pressure does work. Of course, you opt for another interpretation.

Just read about independent magazines like 'The Nineties', and talk to
people who have lived or visited in the mainland, and in particular 
orpeople who live or work in Pearl River Delta, I am sure you'll come
to the same conclusion.  Many of the release of 'dissidents' are for show
only for the foreign pressure, but things are really loosening up in China
now.  Try read the interview by editor Li Yi with the former GongMing Daily
reporter Dai Ching in the Nov issue of 1992 'The Nineties'.  Dai Ching has
been and is one of the most vocal dissident in China.  Perhaps you could 
listen to her.  

>|> ... If the trend could be upkept, I think the political process in China
>|> is going to be less and less opaque as well.
>
>HAHaha, yeah, they already said that they prepare to setup a shadow govt.
>in ShenZheng, and there is no shortage of people like Lo Tak Sheng in HK,
>and even overseas. I just don't understand why they are so afraid of letting
>people participating in the political process if "the trend" is to make the
>process "less and less opaque."

The simple answer is they are not there yet, but they are moving in 
that direction.

>|> ... Even in the case of Tai Ah Bay Nuclear Reactor, I think China has
>|> been careful to try to consult and explain the situation (probably not
>                   ooooooo???????
>|> to the satisfaction of most people of HK though).  I do think China do
>
>HAHaha, (just can't stop laughing), yeah, they obviously try hard. They
>manipulated thru some Legco member to make a so-called investigation trip
>to Europe and cooked up with a report to support the decision. (Some ugly
>lady, unfortunately, has been sacrificed in the process.) Is this what
>you called "consult"?

The process of 'consultation' surely could use more improvement, but 
at least the report comes from LegCo and not from an 'old man in Beijing'.

>|>want to have the support of public opinion to the extent feasible, but
>|> they just don't know how.  (They probably could use the service of
>|> some marketing and advertising agencies to present their case :)

>Yeah. I'd say you are much capable in providing more valuable service.
>But you need more GaoGan connections, not just connections to senior/
>very_very_senior HK govt. officials, because they are to be dumped
>no matter what after 97. Without very_very_senior CCP GaoGan backings,
>you could be sacrificed just as easy as Tam Wei Chu.
>
>Steven

I would say even with very_very_senior CCP GaoGan backings, one could
be sacrificed easily (like Zhao ZiYang :-).  Seriously though, I found
your last paragraph very offensive and is off-base.  I am disappointed
that you have written such.  I always feel that one of the most valuable
lesson we learn in schk is the ability to be open minded and be able 
engaged in serious discussions without resorting to personal attack.

-cw-
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china