HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: nick@sunburn.uwaterloo.ca (Nick Fitzpatrick)
Subject: Re: Suggested mod to judge
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 23:25:08 GMT

In article <1993Jan11.185737.26585@zip.eecs.umich.edu> positron@quip.eecs.umich.edu (Jonathan Haas) writes:
>How's this for an idea:
>
>Make the judge strip every line of an input file past a line beginning
>with "--", UNLESS those lines would be part of a press message.
>
>The reason: I just got a new mailer, which autoappends my .signature
>to any mail I send. The judge chokes on this. Why not strip signatures
>from input files?
>
Why not just use the signoff command, that is what it is there for.

Or even better, get rid of signatures, it a waste of bandwidth, and
is simply a demonstration to the rest of the world, of the size
of ones ego (or in some cases, the fact that they have little better
to do).

Nick      <---- Hey, dig this sig
From: fau@po.CWRU.Edu (Francis A. Uy)
Newsgroups: rec.games.diplomacy
Subject: ISO Gamer's Guide
Date: 7 Jan 1993 14:29:39 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
Distribution: us
Reply-To: fau@po.CWRU.Edu (Francis A. Uy)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


I live in Baltimore, and I'd like to get the 
 Gamer's Guide to Diplomacy.  I visited the
 AH offices, but they don't sell anything 
 face to face.  I refuse to pay the mail 
 order charge for something manufactured
 right down the street.  Where can I go to
 buy it cover price?
Xref: sparky rec.games.diplomacy:768 bit.listserv.dipl-l:460
From: desper@math.rutgers.edu (Rick Desper)
Newsgroups: rec.games.diplomacy,bit.listserv.dipl-l
Subject: Re: New Hall of Fame available
Date: 6 Jan 93 20:35:16 GMT
Followup-To: rec.games.diplomacy
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

I have looked at the new hall of fame, and it is full of information.
One comment I would like to make:  the current #1 player is a person
who is in that position largely because of a Chaos victory, in a game
where he did not even finish with the position.  
Assuredly, this person played a good game, but I am still more
impressed by the records of Dave Cebula and Jamie Dreier, who each
have multiple victories to their credit.  I think that the amount of
points awarded for a chaos game is excessive.  It does not seem right
that a single chaos victory counts more than five regular victories.
Winning a chaos game seems like more akin to the feat of winning a
lottery than winning a real diplomacy game.  
					Rick
Newsgroups: rec.games.diplomacy
From: kovar@world.std.com (David C Kovar)
Subject: Re: Another Moves Question (Was: Re: Moves Question)
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 20:55:01 GMT

In article <C0rAJI.23w@cs.dal.ca> maillet@ug.cs.dal.ca (Andre' Maillet) writes:
>	But can an attacked fleet still convoy? 
>
>For example:
>
>	Norway: (In a loeb9 game)
>	a nor moves nth moves yor
>	f nth convoys nor moves nth moves yor
>
>        England: 
>	f edi moves nth
>        a lon moves yor

  To affect a convoy, you must displace the convoying unit, NTH in this
case. Simply matching the factors will not break the convoy.

  Think of it this way, you've successfully tied up the destroyer
screen and frigates, but you didn't have enough power to stop the
troop transports from making it through.

-David



Newsgroups: rec.games.diplomacy,bit.listserv.dipl-l
From: jfurr@nyx.cs.du.edu (Joel Furr)
Subject: resigning as observer
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 93 02:47:38 GMT

Remind me again how to resign as an observer?  I can't seem to get free of
the game 'newbie'.
Newsgroups: rec.games.diplomacy
From: maillet@ug.cs.dal.ca (Andre' Maillet)
Subject: Another Moves Question (Was: Re: Moves Question)
Organization: Math, Stats & CS, Dalhousie University, Halifax, NS, Canada
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 19:38:05 GMT

In article <1iv3pbINNqtc@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>, PL436000@brownvm.brown.edu (Jamie) writes:
|> >How does this get resolved?
|> >
|> >If we have
|> >
|> >a mun hold
|> >a ber support a mun
|> >f bal support a ber
|> >
|> >
|> >And an attack
|> >
|> >a pru - ber
|> >
|> >The question is: does the support from berlin to munich get cut?
|> 
|> Yes.
|> 
|> I'll bet this is the most commonly asked type of question among
|> competent but not-too-experienced players.
|> 
|> I think that's an interesting fact.
|> 
|> The rules are perfectly clear about this, but apparently it
|> must seem intuitive that a support would not be cut if its
|> piece is itself supported.
|> 
|> Jamie

	But can an attacked fleet still convoy? 

For example:

	Norway: (In a loeb9 game)
	a nor moves nth moves yor
	f nth convoys nor moves nth moves yor

        England: 
	f edi moves nth
        a lon moves yor

	Apparently the Norwegian fleet in nth could still convoy the army on 
nor because the English army on lon -> yor was bounced. Seems a little 
contradictory, eh?

Andre'
-- 
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Andre' M. Maillet    | "Wouldn't it be nice if Education got all the money |
|maillet@ug.cs.dal.ca | it needed and the Air Force had to hold a bake sale |
|djtas@ac.dal.ca      | to buy a new bomber." - from a bumper sticker       |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
DISCLAIMER: The views of Dalhousie University are not necessarily those 
expressed by myself. Therefore, I will completely ignore the university's 
opinions and say whatever the hell I want to.
Newsgroups: rec.games.diplomacy
From: abick@sebastian.carleton.ca (Alan Bick)
Subject: Chaos points vs. Standard points
Organization: Carleton University
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 19:40:25 GMT


I've been giving it a bit of thought and chaos games worth 33 points may
seem excessive but there is also a certain logic to it.

1) First off, let's take the probability of winning a chaos. With 33 other
players in it, how likely do you expect to be the winner? I'm in avalon
(which couldn't be going much slower if we tried!) as Berlin, and I really
don't believe I'll win (but I'll try!). I'm in it for the experience.
Which is more likely, winning 6 diplomacy games or winning a chaos game? I
dunno... the odds are pretty much even.

2) Since chaos games are worth so much, I would think that half-way
through, the pressures for a draw would be quite formidable. When down to
say 5-6 players, that's still equal to a standard win or more. I think
that fact that it is worth 33 points is to encourage draws... or a real
reward for overcoming 33 other players!

3) People who join into the middle of any game (chaos or otherwise) don't
get the full 33 points reward it is given to anyone who had played that
power at one point or another so again, it makes recieving the 33 points a
little more unlikely.

	At first I ageed that 33 points is a bit much but now that I'm
playing in one I can see that it isn't so unfair. I believe that chaos is
designed so that draws are more likely. Also, I find that they take so
long that people can lose their accounts (graduate, move etc...) before a
game ends so again one person won't receive everything.
	Assuming whoever it was that won the first chaos game (and sparked
this thread) happened to be in from the start and conquer his 33 other
enemies, then he is probably the exception that will make the rule and he
probably deserves his reward! Perhaps right now he is #1, but if these
other Hall of Famers are as good as they claim, they should
topple him shortly.
	JUST MY OPINIONS... (but they are probably right and should be
cast in stone!) :)

Alan Bick
Newsgroups: rec.games.diplomacy
From: vdakker@cs.few.eur.nl (Johan van den Akker)
Subject: Game opening in game 'angel' on Washington Judge
Keywords: opening angel
Organization: Erasmus Universiteit Rotterdam
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 09:55:26 GMT

Again we have an opening in game 'angel' on the Washington Judge. This
time it is France who has left for a business trip. France is not in a
bad shape, having 5 units and 5 supply centres in the Winter of 1902.

Johan
-- 
Johan van den Akker                   vdakker@cs.few.eur.nl
Teaching Asst.                        vdakker@sus.eur.nl
Dept of Computer Science
Erasmus University Rotterdam, The Netherlands
Newsgroups: rec.games.diplomacy
From: rho@Xenon.Stanford.EDU (Richard Ho)
Subject: Re: Deadline and graces for adjustments and retreats
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University.
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 00:48:15 GMT

In article <1993Jan11.093426.15273@greco-prog.fr> loeb@geocub.UUCP (Daniel LOEB) writes:
>In article <1993Jan7.024539.13888@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> jfurr@nyx.cs.du.edu (Joel Furr) argues that:
>>24 hours should be the minimum deadline for any basic Diplomacy game
>
>Although I don't care much for warp speed games (24-48 hour
>deadlines), I would like to bring up a possibility here that has not
>been previously discussed. How about "real time" diplomacy. 
[....]
>This would be very much like FTF diplomacy in my opinion. Has anyone
>tried this?
>
>
>Yours, Daniel Loeb				loeb@geocub.greco-prog.fr


I was thinking along similar lines. I thought of an interactive form
of electronic diplomacy. I think it's fair to say that judge-based
diplomacy gives us the equivalent of postal diplomacy, but that this
is slightly different from FtF. 

I mentioned an idea to David Kovar for a client-server type program
that would allow users to play in an interactive way.  He more 
accurately described it as a mix of judge and MUD. The idea is to
have a server (based on judge) and client programs that players
would use to connect to the server. The players would then have
talk-like facilities available to them, and "rooms" that pairs or
small groups could "go" into for conferences. 

The big problem I think is the "intensity" of such a game. It would
probably take about as long as a FtF game but instead of all the
other things going on during a FtF, players would be stuck at their
terminals!

Not really sure I'd want to play such a game though I might try to
implement it (as a networks project) if people want such a thing.


=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
	    |	email: rho@cs.stanford.edu	  P.O. Box 6391
Richard Ho  |	Tel:   415-497 7198 (h)		  Stanford University
	    |          415-723 1809 (o)		  CA 94309, U.S.A.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Newsgroups: rec.games.diplomacy
From: jjfink@skcla.monsanto.com
Subject: <None>
Organization: Searle, Skokie, IL
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 15:56:12 GMT

The game "amnesia" on the washington judge appears to have been forgotten.
It is still forming (after many weeks), and has only two players signed up
(counting myself) out of the eleven needed for a CROWDED game.

Please sign on.  Let's enjoy a game.

Joel
-- 
jjfink@skcla.monsanto.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I want peace on earth, and goodwill towards man."
"We don't do that kind of thing, we're the United States Government!"
  -- from _Sneakers_
From: desper@math.rutgers.edu (Rick Desper)
Newsgroups: rec.games.diplomacy
Subject: Openings in White-press Gunboat game
Keywords: 3 slots open
Date: 7 Jan 93 04:08:15 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.


I am running a white press gunboat game which needs three more players
before I can start.  It is running at a private judge, so I cannot
tell you where it is.  The game will be run at normal speed (3-day
deadlines.)  The first three players who answer this ad will be
granted the last three spots.  
					Rick Desper
					GM EP # 203
Newsgroups: rec.games.diplomacy
From: rho@Xenon.Stanford.EDU (Richard Ho)
Subject: Moves Question
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University.
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 18:42:37 GMT

How does this get resolved?

If we have

a mun hold
a ber support a mun
f bal support a ber


And an attack

a pru - ber

The question is: does the support from berlin to munich get cut?


Thanks!

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
	    |	rho@cs.stanford.edu	Any fool can criticize,  condemn,
Richard Ho  |	415-497 7198 (h)	and complain - and most fools do.
	    |   415-723 1809 (o)	                   -Dale Carnegie
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
From: ruzon@aludra.usc.edu (The Ruz-master)
Newsgroups: rec.games.diplomacy
Subject: Loeb9 question
Date: 11 Jan 1993 18:00:13 -0800
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: aludra.usc.edu
Keywords: question, rules

Here's a quick Loeb9 question that a friend and I have been debating:

The info sheet states that passage between Cordoba and North Africa and
between Naples and Sicily is possible for an army.  However, the move is
made with the strength of the number of supports, rather than 1 plus the
number of supports.

So if the Spanish player starts out with the single order:

A Cor -> Naf

Exactly what does happen?  We've decided that it would go through, but 
before that it seemed possible that since the strength of that attack was
zero, and since there was already a force of zero in North Africa, that there
would technically be a bounce.

BTW, this is a postal game, not a judge game, so we can't try it and see what
happens.  We *are* what happens.

-- 
********************************************************************************
* Mark A. "The Ruz-master" Ruzon     *   "Bigger than life and twice as cocky" *
* ruzon@aludra.usc.edu (Fight On)    *       -a man known only as Mr. Baxter   *
Newsgroups: rec.games.diplomacy
From: loeb@greco-prog.fr (Daniel LOEB)
Newsgroups: rec.games.diplomacy
Subject: Re: Guess what: NMR
Date: 11 Jan 93 09:55:03 GMT
Reply-To: loeb@geocub.UUCP (Daniel LOEB)
Organization: Greco Programmation du CNRS

In article <C85PERWE.93Jan8151844@odal13.IDA.LiU.SE> c85perwe@und.ida.liu.se writes:
>I support Mark Nelson's suggestion to give almost any e-mail game an
>EP number and note if it is NoNMR or NMR or whatever....
>The same applies to eg the opening statistics.  You don't really think
>there are no difference between Austria's openings in a NMR and a NoNMR
>game, do you? 

As custodian of the openings library, I should mention that I record
the openings of all standard (including gunboat and NMR) games which I
receive. The only exception to that is if someone of the players
already NMRed by Spring 1901! In that case, I don't count the game.

 
-- 

Yours, Daniel Loeb				loeb@geocub.greco-prog.fr
HOME 	150, cours Victor-Hugo; Appt D45; 33000 Bordeaux France
WORK	LABRI; Universite de Bordeaux I; 33405 Talence Cedex France
From: fau@po.CWRU.Edu (Francis A. Uy)
Newsgroups: rec.games.diplomacy
Subject: Re: Bringing an aspect of Face-To-Face to the judge
Date: 11 Jan 1993 15:00:54 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: fau@po.CWRU.Edu (Francis A. Uy)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


jeff@pangea.Stanford.EDU (Jeff Freymueller) says:

>kovar@world.std.com (David C Kovar) writes:

>>It was suggested that the judge be modified to report on who is sending
>>messages to whom.

>The only problem I can see is that in a non-gunboat game, the players could
>just exchenge email privately (rather than through the judge) - thus bypassing
>this useful bit of information. But this option would be great on a gunboat,
>partial white press game - nad would be more like FTF.

Problem being that Gunboat is designed to have that kind
 of secrecy.  How could you play gunboat face to face?

You'd have to modify the Gunboat system, so that all mail
 is routed through the Judge, but the sender's nationality
 is displayed.  Alternately, play a regular game and ask
 the players to refrain from sending outside mail.  

Ack!  I'm asking Diplomats to follow an honor code!  What
 was I thinking?  (-;
Newsgroups: rec.games.diplomacy,bit.listserv.dipl-l
From: kovar@world.std.com (David C Kovar)
Subject: EFF judge allows NO UNMODERATED GAMES
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 01:12:05 GMT

  I'm finding it hard to believe that anyone who reads this newsgroup at
all regularly misses the fact that the EFF judge does not allow any 
unmoderated games. I find it even harder to believe because every message
the judge sends to a player includes the line:

	Any unmoderated games will be deleted.

  right at the top of the message.

  So why did I have to delete four unmoderated games in the last two days?
At least one was created by a player in another EFF game, so I *know* he
has seen the message.

  Come on people, don't make the maintainer's work any harder than it has
to be. This applies to unmoderated games and inane questions. There are
360+ players out there (the current number registered on the EFF) and only
four or five maintainers, and another four or five people who are helping
out on a regular basis.

-David

Newsgroups: rec.games.diplomacy
From: kovar@world.std.com (David C Kovar)
Subject: Re: Retreats
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1993 15:52:25 GMT

In article <4343@wzv.win.tue.nl> rob@wzv.win.tue.nl (Rob J. Nauta) writes:
>The FAQ for this group mentions the file name for the judge source:
>-rw-r--r--       260039 Nov 18 12:43 dip.tar.Z       Source code for judge
>I think you can get it with 'get file' from judge@eff.org..


To get the latest sources, send "get uudip.tar" to judge@morrolan.eff.org
(The FAQ should be updated to reflect this.)

-David
From: jeff@pangea.Stanford.EDU (Jeff Freymueller)
Newsgroups: rec.games.diplomacy
Subject: Re: Bringing an aspect of Face-To-Face to the judge
Date: 11 Jan 1993 08:00:52 GMT
Organization: Stanford Univ. Earth Sciences
NNTP-Posting-Host: pangea.stanford.edu

In article <C0oC09.KBy@world.std.com> kovar@world.std.com (David C Kovar) writes:
>  We were playing Youngstown face-to-face today and were talking about
>some of the differences between FTF and email. One primary one we came
>up with was the lack of knowledge in email games of who is talking to whom.
>It was suggested that the judge be modified to report on who is sending
>messages to whom.
>
>  I did a bit more thinking about this, too. If you sent out a message to
>all the players each time a private message was sent, then you'd swamp
>people with email. But how about if there was a summary sent along with
>your current move status that showed you how many times each of the other
>countries had sent email to each of the other countries? The table would
>be reset after each move.
>
>  This would be an option which could be turned off. I'd probably want it
>as the default, but either way would be fine.
>
>  Any thoughts, pro or con? Anyone interested in trying to implement it?
>
>-David
>

The only problem I can see is that in a non-gunboat game, the players could
just exchenge email privately (rather than through the judge) - thus bypassing
this useful bit of information. But this option would be great on a gunboat,
partial white press game - nad would be more like FTF.

Jeff
From: loeb@greco-prog.fr (Daniel LOEB)
Newsgroups: rec.games.diplomacy
Subject: Re: Game aargh! not eligble for EP (was 24-Hour Warp With NMR)
Date: 5 Jan 93 12:51:34 GMT
Reply-To: loeb@geocub.greco-prog.fr
Organization: GRECO Programmation du CNRS - Bordeaux,France

Cameron Hooper writes:
>Just like to throw in my support for NMR.  It seems to me that vacant
>positions, once advertised on r.g.d, fill up quickly unless it is a
>hopeless position.  A hopeless CD position will not harm a NMR game
>too much as it was likely to fall anyway.

I think that a GM should be able to keep a supply of alternates on
hand to fill openings. In case of need, Eric Klien keeps his own list,
and you can advertise the openings on the network.
How long does an opening stay unfilled while people actively search to
fill it? 

While there probably are some hopeless positions, I personally do not
like to give up hope too soon. A change of command might be exactly
what a rapidly descending country needs to change its destiny.

As some sort of compromise, perhaps the EP could retroactively
recognize games which while they in theory allowed NMR actually did
not have "much NMR".... (no more than say 6 unit seasons).....

As a former editor of EPC2 however, I second Josh Smith's invitation
to publish articles on all sorts of games. While I prefer no-NMR
games, people should not think that anybody's freedom of speech is
being surpressed.

Mark Nelson asks:
> 3)      Games must be different site
> Does (3) apply to the game at all stages or just the initial line-up?

Yes. Players from the same site should not normally be in the game
simultaneously. Exceptions to this rule have been given occasionally
(for games that would otherwise be hard to fill). Nevertheless, I
admit that being able to negotiate FTF is a HUGE advantage.
(The communication is faster. It is easier to guess if the other
player is lying. And you don't risk being quoted....)


-- 

Yours, Daniel Loeb				loeb@geocub.greco-prog.fr
HOME 	150, cours Victor-Hugo; Appt D45; 33000 Bordeaux France
WORK	LABRI; Universite de Bordeaux I; 33405 Talence Cedex France
Newsgroups: rec.games.diplomacy
From: tax@tolsun.oulu.fi (Samuli Takala)
Subject: Re: Supporting a Support
Organization: University of Oulu, Finland
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 22:00:08 GMT

In article <1993Jan12.201323.29528@sol.UVic.CA> jroberts@sanjuan (John Roberts) writes:
>In my last ftf game, the GM invoked a rule that I didn't necessarily
>agree with but seemed to be standard.  That was the invalidation of support
>for units offering support to another attack.  Eg:
>
>France: Pic -> Bel
>	Bur S Pic -> Bel
>	Par S Pic
Shouldn't this be Par S Bur?

>
>Germany: Mun -> Bur
>	 Ruh S Mun -> Bur
>
>His ruling was that the support from Par to Bur was invalid, because Bur
>was not holding.  The exception he allowed was for mutual support.
>
>Now in a judge game, I have been bounced on an attack, playing a position
>similar to Germany's above.  Therefore, the judge allows the support from
>Paris.
>
>I suspect that the Judge is the correct interpretation, but want to be sure,
>and ask that someone point me at the location in the rules that describes this.
Judge is correct.
In rules page 5:
6. HOLDING AND RECEIVING SUPPORT. A unit not ordered to move (i.e., one that
is ordered to hold, ordered to convoy, ordered to support, or not ordered at
all) may receive support in holding. A unit ordered to move may receive support
only for its attempted movement. It may not be supported in place in the event
that its attempted move fails.


>
>Thanks
>--
>John M. Roberts   jroberts@sanjuan.uvic.ca
>voice: (604) 384-4131   fax: (604) 384-1194

Samuli Takala, tax@tolsun.oulu.fi
From: arkoff@sun.lclark.edu (Gary Arkoff)
Newsgroups: rec.games.diplomacy
Subject: Russia for Sale
Date: 5 Jan 93 21:46:03 GMT
Article-I.D.: lclark.1993Jan5.214603.17824
Organization: Lewis & Clark College, Portland OR

Iguana on the Washington judge needs someone to take over Russia.  Russia
currently has six units, but will be forced to disband three of them this
turn....

-Gary


-- 
"The question is not, can animals reason? Nor, can they talk?  But, can
they suffer?"    -Jeremy Bentham, philosopher, 1748-1832.

                   Gary Arkoff --   arkoff@lclark.edu
Newsgroups: rec.games.diplomacy