HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: egorr@hebb.uoregon.edu
Subject: Re: The christian perspective...?
Organization: University of Oregon Network Services
Distribution: usa
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 92 22:54:25 GMT

In article <-50nk1h.ray@netcom.com> ray@netcom.com (Ray Fischer) writes:
>egorr@hebb.uoregon.edu (Eric Gorr) writes ...
>>In article <19vn3aINNm00@fido.asd.sgi.com>, cj@eno.wpd.sgi.com (C.J.
>>Silverio) writes:
>>
>>> Of course I disagree.  I think that the sperm & egg are alive,
>>> and human tissue.  Your position implies that they are not.  
>>
>>Let me state the relevant point of my position.  The sperm and egg left
>>seperated, will never develop into a human child.  That is the
>>reason why I do not classify them as human life.
>
>A zygote left in the woods will never develop into a human child.  So?
>If you're going to add arbitrary qualifications than so will I.  In fact,
>many human eggs DO develop into human adults.

That is a case of interference with what would happen.  Not what I am talking
about at all.  If you dont' understand what I am saying, let me know and I will
expand further.

>>> Fertilization isn't any guarantee of reproductive success-- 2/3
>>> of fertilized eggs naturally fail to develop, for various
>>> reasons.  Implantation isn't any guarantee of success either.
>>> I don't particularly value either stage.
>>
>>That may be true today.  But I would hope that you are aware of research
>>that is attempting to make all fertilizations successful.  What happens to
>>your arguement when this is the case?
>
>Well, when pigs fly we'll have to buy stronger umbrellas, and when monkey's
>fly out of my ass, I'll go on the Tonight Show and talk to Jay about it.

So, what's your point?  I see no relevant one here...please explain.

>>Can you expand upon this concept called "consciousness-capability"
>>please...
>
>Myelenation is the point where myelin forms around the nerves.  Without
>myelin, nerves don't work.  MS (or is it ALS?) is a disease involving the 
>deterioration of this sheath.  Invariably fatal.
>
>Before this stage in the development of a fetus, it is clearly incapable
>of thought or sensation.  Thus, it becomes a useful measure of human-ness.

Many adults in a coma are like this also.  Would it be ok to kill them?

Newsgroups: talk.abortion
From: Larry Margolis <margoli@watson.ibm.com>
Subject: Re: Biblical support for abortion...?
Date: Sat, 03 Oct 1992 06:54:30 GMT
Distribution: usa
Reply-To: margoli@watson.IBM.com
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: The Village Waterbed

In  <1992Oct3.003321.1463@nntp.uoregon.edu>  egorr@cie.uoregon.edu (Eric Gorr) writes:
> In article <1992Sep29.182959.3979@cs.yale.edu> rescorla@rtnmr.chem.yale.edu (Eri
>
> >Come now, Mr. Gorr. Not a single one of those passages has any
> >direct relevance to abortion.
>
> Look at the indirect relevance to abortion...
>
> One of the greatest things about the bible and the reason why it is
> still very relevant today is because things discussed in there can
> be applied to many similar situations.

You like it because you can read into it any damn thing you want?

> Do you see the relevance now?

I think so.  :-)

Larry Margolis, MARGOLI@YKTVMV (Bitnet), margoli@watson.IBM.com (Internet)
Newsgroups: talk.abortion
From: kcochran@nyx.cs.du.edu (Keith "Justified And Ancient" Cochran)
Subject: Re: Dr. Mildred Hanson Wins Lawsuit
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 92 23:06:31 GMT

In article <6737@blue.cis.pitt.edu.UUCP> sgast+@pitt.edu (Susan Garvin) writes:
>
>Thanks for following up on that, Chris.
>
>I'll remind people who don't know which case this is - this
>is the one in which the woman alleged that Dr. Hanson had
>four staff members hold her down on the table, gave her
>no anesthesia, threatened to have her committed, and 
>refused to stop the abortion.  It made a nice story for
>Nyikos - too bad it wasn't true.
>
>I'll be waiting for Nyikos' reaction.

If I can play Cassandra for a moment...

He'll claim that we just don't understand, that I'm violent, and that we're
all sexually harassing him...

What do you think?
--
=kcochran@nyx.cs.du.edu | B(0-4) c- d- e++ f- g++ k(+) m r(-) s++(+) t | TSAKC=
=My thoughts, my posts, my ideas, my responsibility, my beer, my pizza.  OK???=
=National Coming Out Day is Oct 11th, 1992. Closets Are A Place To Put Clothes=
Newsgroups: talk.abortion
From: kcochran@nyx.cs.du.edu (Keith "Justified And Ancient" Cochran)
Subject: Re: The christian perspective...?
Summary: You're going to build a pyramid? 
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Keywords: You expect me to mark my deletions?  Dream in... 
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 92 01:24:54 GMT

In article <1992Sep29.190845.12905@nntp.uoregon.edu> egorr@hebb.uoregon.edu (Eric Gorr) writes:
>In article <1992Sep28.031526.7490@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu>,
>kcochran@nyx.cs.du.edu (Keith "Justified And Ancient" Cochran) writes:
>> 
>> In article <1992Sep27.211859.9370@nntp.uoregon.edu> egorr@hebb.uoregon.edu (Eric Gorr) writes:
>> >
>> >I will grant you that given the current state of technology there are
>> >serious problems with doing what I truly believe must be done...and maybe
>>                              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> 
>> Um, and just how do you propose to make sure that "what you truly believe
>> must be done" gets done?  Legislate it?
>
>Nope.  There are many way to accomplish things that are longer 
>lasting and more powerful then legislation.

Such as?

--
=kcochran@nyx.cs.du.edu | B(0-4) c- d- e++ f- g++ k(+) m r(-) s++(+) t | TSAKC=
=My thoughts, my posts, my ideas, my responsibility, my beer, my pizza.  OK???=
=   "Wendy? Yes, Lisa? Is the water warm enough? Yes, Lisa? Shall we begin?"  =
=                                                                     "Prince"=
Newsgroups: talk.abortion
From: ray@netcom.com (Ray Fischer)
Subject: Re: Question for Eric Gorr
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 92 03:52:57 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services
Distribution: na

garvin+@cs.cmu.edu (Susan Garvin) writes ...
>The protesters at the local women's clinics spend a good
>part of their time praying at the top of their voices for
>various things - an end to all abortions, conversion for
>all who are not supporting them, etc.  Do you think that
>there is Biblical support for this activity?

"The worst vice of the fanatic is his sincerity."
		-- Oscar Wilde
"A fanatic is a man that does what he thinks the Lord would
 do if He knew the facts of the case."
		-- Finley Peter Dunne (Mr. Dooley)

A pair of quotes from "Peter's Quotations" by Laurence Peter.
Enjoy   :-)

-- 
Ray Fischer                   "Every improvement in communication
ray@netcom.com                 makes the bore more terrible"  Frank Moore Colby
Newsgroups: talk.abortion
From: smgarvin@nyx.cs.du.edu (susan garvin)
Subject: Re: New anti-abortion tactic
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 92 22:40:50 GMT



Stick around, Paul, you'll just love Peter Nyikos.

I would be interested in hearing from anyone who knows
the man's position on sex ed in public schools.

Susan
From: The forgotten one
Newsgroups: talk.abortion
Subject: Hi, long long time no see
Summary: Just looked in to say hello!
Date: 1 Oct 92 10:50:33 GMT
Reply-To: maboyiny@ccvax.as.edu.tw
Organization: Ye good olde Days
Originator: boyiny@noether


Ladies and Gentlemen!  Do you still remember the signatures Net.UnDead
or Vampire of more than a year ago?  The original version of posts from
this account?

Long time no see!  With my Taiwanese newsfeed down, I poked into this
almost-forgotten account -- and thought I might poke my head into some
newsgroups that I used to frequent of old.

I greet these people, and apologise for any omissions:  Adrienne Regard,
Len Howard, Dean Dekaflowitz, Steve Novak, Susan Garvin, Muriel Nelson,
Keith Cochran, Russ Anderson, Suzanne Forgach, Larry Margolis and Eric Marsh.

I understand that Phil Buckland, Dan Bredy, Russ Lawrence and our very own
David J. Rasmussen are no longer with us.  Also conspicuously missing from
the list above, people who I have not seen in my little trek through the
backlog, are Jim Purdon, Galen Heckuis and Tim Clinkenpeel.  I see also
that also our very own Kevin Darcy continues to host "Darcy vs. the world,
especialy James Keegan", although the last part seems unapparent from my
skimming.  There seems to be no on-goging boycott of anyone, which is a
pity, as that makes life so much more interesting.

Anyone who had seen enough (too much?) of me in the old days to claim an
acquaintance and was omitted can write to claim recognisance and an apology
:-) I will not be posting much due to time and resource constraints but it
is heartening to know that some things stay constant.  Talk.abortion's
eternal circular arguments goes on.

	--from the one of Auld Lang Syne...
From: sgast+@pitt.edu (Susan Garvin)
Newsgroups: talk.abortion
Subject: Re: Sarah Weddington
Summary: my turn, rocker
Date: 1 Oct 92 20:31:05 GMT
Organization: University of Pittsburgh


I'm hoping to go hear Weddington's talk, myself.  I greatly
admire the woman.  

I would imagine that there will plenty of people present who
are not only willing but anxious to demonstrate their naivete
and ignorance.  I'll let everyone know how well they did.

Susan
From: rescorla@rtnmr.chem.yale.edu (Eric Rescorla)
Subject: Re: Eric Gorr on Biblical support for abortion...?
Organization: Rescorla for himself.
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 21:16:44 GMT

In article <1992Oct5.135446.1647@pwcs.stpaul.gov> chrisl@stpaul.gov (Chris A Lyman) writes:
>egorr@cie.uoregon.edu (Eric Gorr) writes:
>> I would be interested in knowing how you came to the absolute
>> conclusion that my bible is on musical CD's?  Or you can just
>> admit your ignorance, appoligize, and we can continue in a
>> rational fashion.
>
>Jeez, Eric G., Eric R. asked you for what you consider to be biblical
>support for your anti-abortion position.  You replied by mentioning a
>song on an Amy Grant CD.  There's a certain humor implicit in that
>situation, don't you think?
To be strictly fair to Mr. Gorr, he was actually claiming (don't ask
me why) that the Bible was pro-choice, which was the position
that I asked for justification for.
-Ekr

-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eric Rescorla, DoD#431 (Nighthawk S)              rescorla@rtnmr.chem.yale.edu
Former chemist now CM400 mechanic                 ekr@eitech.com(preferred)
   "Base 8 is just like base 10, really...if you're missing two fingers."
From: nyikos@math.scarolina.edu (Peter Nyikos)
Newsgroups: talk.abortion
Subject: Re: I had an abortion two days ago
Date: 4 Oct 92 04:25:02 GMT
Organization: USC  Department of Computer Science

In <1992Sep30.064112.11121@netcom.com> bskendig@netcom.com (Brian Kendig) writes:

>Martin writes;
>>...  Genetics and biology would say that the thing which exists at 
>>conception is human, and not only is it human, it is a special, unique
>>human being.  Gender, for example, is already chosen.

>Yes, it's unique -- but you could use this same argument for saying
>that one given dog is unique from any other dog, so why should we let
>the SPCA put dogs to sleep just because they've been there too long
>without having anyone want them?

Well, it just so happens that killing dogs is not considered murder.
Killing humans is, once they are safely out of the womb.  We pro-lifers
believe that we can afford to extend protection to those inside the
womb, but extending the right to life to animals is not a part of
our culture.  It may be a different story in India, but even there
animals are not given legal protection from *each other* as a rule.

There is a deeper consideration than this, though.  It is the fact
that humans, unless very severely retarded, can lead richer lives by
reason of their greater intelligence than almost all animals.  There
is some possibility of whales, dolphins, and elephants being exceptions,
so I am against the killing of them too, except to protect human life.

>  The only reason why it seems you accept putting
>unwanted animals to sleep but you support forcing mothers to carry
>unwanted fetuses to term is that the human fetus has human DNA.

If you took such liberties in putting words into Adrienne's mouth,
she'd put you in your place, if you happened to be arguing with her
(say, about the fact that there should really be legislation to require
fetuses to be anesthetized before abortion.)

>I'm NOT trying to be facetious here.  Why, exactly, do you regard
>human DNA as the key to moral worth?  Are there features of humanity
>that distinguish humanity from lower life?  Do you understand why some
>of us are trying to define exactly what these features are, and to
>decide whether or not a human life in its fetal stage can be said to
>possess these features?

Part of the point is that it WILL develop these features; the other,
in my system, is that it HAS the bare rudiments for there to be
"someone home" LONG before birth.  To deprive that "someone home"
the chance to become one of us is appalling to me.

>>Whether the woman thought it was wrong or right to have the child doesn't
>>change the child.  The unborn child has a right to life just as the mother
>>has a right to live.

>Yes, but

After this came a long list, all of which negated the "Yes."  So
I think it would have been more appropriate to say "No, because"
despite the fact that Kendig does think the unborn child has as
much right to live as a cat; in other words, next to none.
Newsgroups: talk.abortion,alt.abortion.inequity
From: drieux@wetware.com (drieux, just drieux)
Subject: Let's Play StipUlations....
Organization: Castle WetWare Philosopher and Sniper
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 17:48:00 GMT

DISCLAIMER:  I AM NOT STATING PERSONAL BELIEF.

beaver@castor.cs.psu.edu (Don Beaver) writes:
] 
] Stipulate: fetus (B) is a person with rights to be weighed against
] those of other persons.
] 
] Stipulate: voluntary sex implies voluntary reduction of privacy rights.


Ok, 

Stipulate: women are not Real Persons But Breeding Mares of the Riech.

Stipulate: God Divinely Appoints Some of us to Rule and Others Not.

Stipulate: That Those who Do not Agree with me Have Proven that
they are Clearly Enemies of GOD and Must Pay Penance for their
Idolatrous and Blasphemous Heretical Notions, and then Be Burned
at the Stake.....


Gee, this can be fun....


ciao
drieux


-- 
Modern Day Problems

Does that 'answer' your question,
or should I be a little more vague.
Newsgroups: talk.abortion
From: ray@netcom.com (Ray Fischer)
Subject: Re: In Suzanne's Defense
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 92 00:29:04 GMT
Organization: Netcom San Jose

c164-ad@po.berkeley.edu (Martin Guerrero) writes ...
>What has to be taken into consideration is how DNA works together with the
>entire entity.  At conception and in the next few weeks or so, the DNA and
>the entire entity work together in carrying out the genetic code that was 
>written or combined at conception.  The entire sum of that individual is 
>contained within the fetus or the unborn.  

My finger contains _complete_ DNA.

>However, in your finger example, only a portion of the entire sum of the
>individual was taken away.  That small portion does not a new human life
>make.

Guess what happens when the embryo/zygote is removed from the mother?
The same thing that happens to the finger removed from the rest of my
body.  Does this suggest anything about the personhood status of said
zygote/embryo?

>Of course, as common sense dictates, either removing or destroying the
>entire sum of the individual, or removing a portion of a sum of the
>entire individual can cause death.

Really?  I've been removed from one place or another a couple times
and it doesn't seem to have done _me_ any harm.  Maybe I wasn't paying
close enough attention.

>>If it's alive, yes.  Now try it 7 months before birth.  Is THAT a person?
>
>It is a member of homo sapiens, and is definitely human.

Which dodges the question: Is it a person?

>If being born is:
>1) unborn baby is separated with his/her mother.
>2) unborn baby tries to live a life outside the mother's womb,
>
>Then what happens during abortion?  Doesn't the unborn baby get separated
>from his/her mother?  Doesn't the unborn baby try to live a life outside
>the mother's womb successful or not?  
>
>So a baby can actually be born during an abortion.  But instead of trying to 

More commonly known as being born via C-section, if I understand what you're
trying to say.  By the way, an "unborn baby" cannot reside anywhere but in
the mother.  Once outside, it has been born.  "unborn baby tries to live a 
life outside" is nonsense.

>make the unborn baby live its life outside the mother's womb, abortions try 
>to make it such that the unborn baby will never be able to live a life 
>outside the mother's womb.

If you are claiming that abortion kills born infants, then I suggest you
produce some evidence.  You might also want to call the police since 
this is a crime known as murder.

-- 
Ray Fischer                   "Every improvement in communication
ray@netcom.com                 makes the bore more terrible"  Frank Moore Colby
Newsgroups: talk.abortion
From: chall@eco.twg.com (Charles Don Hall)
Subject: Re: rights and responsibilities
Organization: The Wollongong Group (East Coast Operations)
Distribution: na
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 92 21:45:01 GMT

In <1aa1gsINNn91@fido.asd.sgi.com> cj@eno.wpd.sgi.com (C J Silverio) writes:

>---
>Erik Karl Witte <ew2r+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
>|She is only the victim of her own choice to irresponsibly have sex when
>|she was not willing to bear the potential consequences.

>Remember, people-- if you don't WANT to take responsibility for
>an orgasm, don't have sex.  Orgasms are far & away the #1 most
>likely consequence of sex-- so if you can't handle it, don't
>do it!

And if you do have sex, be sure to take proper precautions. Although
there is no substitute for abstinance, men can greatly reduce their risk
of having unwanted orgasms by the simple expedient of wearing an entire
box of condoms during the sexual act. (Yes, that's right, all the 
condoms and also the cardbox box.)

>|If she really didn't want a pregnancy, she shouldn't have risked getting it.

>If you really didn't want to get hit by that car, you shouldn't
>have risked crossing the street.

Women can reduce their risk of having unwanted orgasms by
contemplating a gory car accident such as the one described
in the paragraph above. Or a bathtub of earthworms.

>---
>cj@eno.wpd.sgi.com	C J Silverio/Brahms Gang/Berkeley CA 94720
>"I am going tomorrow where I shall find a man who has not one agreeable
>quality, who has neither manner nor sense to recommend him.  Stupid men
>are the only ones worth knowing, after all."   Jane Austen
--

This is my second posting of this message, 'cause I forgot to check
to see you'd set followups to 'misc.test'. Does this make me stupid 
enough to be worth knowing? 
-- 

===========================================================
Charles Don Hall, Licensed Philosopher  (chall@eco.twg.com)
===========================================================
Newsgroups: talk.abortion
From: ray@netcom.com (Ray Fischer)
Subject: Re: ABSOLUTELY NEW REMEDY FOR CONTRACEPTION IS OFFERED !!
Organization: Netcom San Jose
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1992 21:03:13 GMT

andro@sasco.georgia.su writes ...
>      Absolutely new remedy for contraception is offered !
>                  Please, pay attention !

What do you do when you have whole nations of newbies on the net who
aren't aquainted with net etiquette?

Comments:
1) Using the network for commercial purposes is not acceptable.
2) We saw your post the first time.
3) Nobody believes you.

-- 
Ray Fischer                   "Every improvement in communication
ray@netcom.com                 makes the bore more terrible"  Frank Moore Colby
Newsgroups: talk.abortion
From: decay@cbnewsj.cb.att.com (dean.kaflowitz)
Newsgroups: talk.abortion
Subject: Re: PatricKKK the Liar Humphrey strikes again! (was Re: threatening larry, again (was Re: The use of fat black ass to describe Chaney is unsupported)
Date: 5 Oct 92 19:40:54 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: AT&T

In article <1992Oct5.180432.11672@csus.edu> chaneysa@nextnet.csus.edu (Stephen A Chaney) writes:
> In article <1992Sep28.180947.14248@jetsun.weitek.COM> nadja@jetsun.weitek.COM (Nadja Adolf) writes:
> >BTW - Erik and I want to meet you. Send me email and let's set a date.
> 
> Any time. I'm here at any one of the computer labs. I work at the CSUS
> Computer Store on Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday. Meet me any time you
> want. 
> 
> If you're looking for trouble, however, I'm all you can handle. I
> guarantee that the first swing you take will earn you and Erik a free
> trip to the hospital, to prison, and then to the bank to pay off the
> lawsuit I'll slap you with, for assault and battery. And seeing as
> that you came all the way out to meet me, it would be first degree
> assault. But hey, I'll do you a favor - I'll drop you off at the
> police station myself. 
> 
> Do you REALLY want to meet me? 

See why I think this guy is such a little boneheaded wimp?
Someone says they want to meet him and he has to start swinging
his threats and tough-guy act around.  This is not the first time
he has pulled this kind of childish nonsense.  In fact, it is
just one of an inumerable number of times.  It goes hand-in-hand
with his constant declarations of victory.  Sometimes he even
declares victory in the most pointless of things, like his
recent declaration that "pro-lifers have won the flamewar."

Yoo hoo!  Bill Overpeck.  You really think he's not a sick
little puppy in need of therapy for his mental aberrations?
He's supposedly an adult in college, and yet he acts like
a flipping two year old on a tantrum.  He crows about how as
soon as his parents are dead he's gonna have it made in such a
way you suspect he wouldn't mind helping them "across the river."

Dean Kaflowitz
Xref: sparky talk.abortion:39589 talk.religion.misc:17471 alt.atheism:18246