HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: clamen@CS.CMU.EDU (Stewart Clamen)
Subject: Re: He Who Saves a Single Soul...
Originator: clamen@BYRON.SP.CS.CMU.EDU
Reply-To: clamen+@CS.CMU.EDU
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon University
	<1992Aug18.204449.10608@ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM>
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 02:32:57 GMT

In article <1992Aug18.204449.10608@ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM> nabil@ncrcol.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM (Nabil Idriss) writes:


   In article <1992Aug17.140232.19511@rs.com> horen@rs.com writes:
   >
   >>                     Attention Israel Line Recipients
   >>  
   >>                         Monday  August 17, 1992
   >>  
   >>  
   >> Peres Approves Israeli Arab Initiative to Bring Yugoslavian Orphans
   >> to Israel
   >>  
   >> Today's AL HAMISHMAR reports that Foreign Minister Shimon Peres
   >> yesterday approved the Muslim Rescue Committee's mission to bring
   >> orphans from the embattled areas of Bosnia to Israel. In a letter
   >> sent to the Muslim Committee, Peres said that he welcomes the
   >> initiative of the members of the committee to save children from
   >> the war torn areas without regard to religion or nationality. 
   > 
   >I'm waiting to see which of the Arab media report approval by
   >the Foreign Ministers of the Arab League/GCC members to bring
   >Jewish orphans from war-torn Bosnia-Herzegovina to their countries.

   Why did you emphasize "Arabs" instead of "Moslem" countries? There is 
   a lot of them like Pakistan, Iran, Azerbijan, Turkey.You also speak 
   like you own the whole land of Palestine. Remember that it belongs to
   Arab Moslems as well.     

What about Arab Christians?

--
Stewart M. Clamen			Internet:    clamen@cs.cmu.edu
School of Computer Science		UUCP: 	     uunet!"clamen@cs.cmu.edu"
Carnegie Mellon University		Phone: 	     +1 412 268 2145
5000 Forbes Avenue			Fax:	     +1 412 268 5739
Pittsburgh, PA 15213-3890, USA
Organization: Masters student, Information Networking Institute, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 02:32:49 -0400 
From: Radu Eugen Edelstein <re0x+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: The left lies pathetically (was Re: 3rd WORLD RESOURCES: PAMPHLETS

David Ben Ami writes:
Arab propaganda used to lure "the loony left" into bashing Israel and
Zionism to no end with the same nutty arguments of "Israel stealing
and oppressing poor Arabs". "The Arabs are just claiming their own
and have justified claims".

The same isolationist and bleeding-heart liberals are the spearhead of
the "Anti-Zionist" (c.f. Arf and Yigal Arens). It is indeed engrossing
to see these 2 opposite groups unite against Israel amd later against
Kuwait.
I say:
Most of my friends in New York are liberals (the others are
Ortodox Jews :-)).  While some of them do have an anti-Israel
attitude, most of them *are* supportive of Israel.  In their
view liberal ideology is not in conflict with support for Israel.
At the same time, I don't know too many extreme left people.

Rad
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,alt.war
From: jac54@cas.org ()
Subject: Re: Nuclear War in the Middle East - Soviet Nuclear Weapons Stolen?
Organization: Chemical Abstracts Service, Columbus, Ohio
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 11:26:04 GMT

In article <r8#ncrn.noring@netcom.com> noring@netcom.com (Jon Noring) writes:
>Hello,
>
>I've been hearing rumors (the lowest form of information) that during the
>breakup of the Soviet Union, some of the Soviet tactical nuclear weapons were
>acquired surreptitiously by one or more Islamic countries

	This was covered on sci.military some weeks ago.  The problem
	with moving nuclear weapons without certain permissions is that
	they are wired to self-destruct (i.e. rendered inoperable, we'd
	have noticed the bang).  The best that they have is a few pieces
	of fissile material that may still be in the right conformation
	(maybe).  The Israeli nuclear stockpile is one of the worst-kept
	secrets of our time.

	Alec Chambers.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: nabil@ncrcol.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM (Nabil Idriss)
Subject: Re: BILL CLINTON ON ISRAEL AND THE MIDDLE
Organization: NCR E&M Columbia SC.
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 92 20:19:49 GMT

>>International Law? This is a joke. If there is any law in the world
>>I will be living now with my parents in Haifa.
>
>Law does not necessarily equal justice. There's international law,
>and you're very quick to cite its authority when it's on your side.
>I'm disgusted with this double standard, Nabil; I thought better of
>your mind. Whether or not you think the laws are fair, they exist.
>

Nop, Law means Justice in my definition. Why do people go to courts
then?

>>heard him say the number of the palestinians outside the territory,
>>that is in all the Arab countries: 1.9 Million.  He said he is not
>>ready to accept their return. Is this fair? 
>
>Yup. Because we own the country now.
>

You own it now? It looks like you are proud of admitting that it was
ours and now it is yours. Let me tell you something: Life is like a 
wheel and now you are sitting on top of the wheel and we are at the 
bottom of it. The wheel will turn one day. If you are nice to us
today we will remember that tommorow.

>>Nabil Idriss       
>
>-- 
>"Light one candle for those who are suffering pain we learned so long ago..."


-- 
Nabil Idriss                           |       FOR EVERY ACTION AN OPPOSITE  
NCR - Midrange Products Division       |       AND EQUAL REACTION.
      Columbia, South Carolina         |      
email: nabil@ncrcol.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM |
From: gene@cs.bu.edu (Gene Itkis)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Israeli Loan Guarantees
Date: 18 Aug 92 17:40:04 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Department, Boston University, Boston, MA, USA
Originator: gene@csd

In article <22220@venera.isi.edu> arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens) writes:
>Perhaps.  But according to Rabin, building will continue on ALL
>structures where it has begun, not just those that are almost finished.
>So even where only foundation work has started, the building will be
>completed.  And based on the fact that Shamir accelerated the pace in
>his last few months, I would hazard the guess that there are more buildings
>in their early stages than in their late stages of construction.

How does that jibe with the recent posting of Hank quoted below?

++++++++++ BEGIN EXCERPT +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

From: HANK@BARILVM.BITNET (Hank Nussbacher)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Drying out the settlements
Date: 6 Aug 92 09:04:36 GMT
Organization: Bar-Ilan University Computing Center, Israel


                    Drying out the settlements
                    --------------------------

    Many of you may  be unaware of the  extent to which the  current
Israeli  government  is  going  out  of  its  way  to  "dry out" the
settlements in Yehuda, Shomron and Gaza.  Living here, I see it  and
live it daily, so I will try to provide a quick snapshot of what  is
going on out here in the "territories".

    As was expected, government  sponsored building was shut  down 2
weeks  after  the  Rabin  government  came  to  power.    Government
sponsored building is where the  government pays a builder to  build
an entire  section of  apartments, usually  in the  range of  40-300
units.  The builder then tries to  sell the apartments and if he  is
unable to, the government buys the dwellings so the deal is more  or
less  risk  free  for  a  builder.   People  were  saying  that  the
government would not allow new building to start but in fact, it  is
*all* government  sponsored building  that has  stopped.  In  Karnei
Shomron, there are about 800 units in various stages of  completion,
most past the 75% stage.  That includes local infrastructure such as
sewage  and  water.   This  has  all  been  brought  to  a  complete
standstill.  The government is expected  to have to pay to  builders
quite  a  bit  of  money  (in  excess  of $300m) as compensation for
breaking  contracts  with  them.    The  government  is  left   with
unfinished homes.

    Yesterday,  the  government  passed  the  law  that even private
building will not be allowed  and has already turned down  requests.
[...]

++++++++++++++++ END EXCERPT +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

There is more in the article if you missed it. Btw, it was this article which
caused Yigal to consider withdrawing all the bad things he said about Rabin in
the past (I guess he did not get too far past the "consider" stage). So, Yigal,
we know you've seen it. Already forgot?

-- 
 ---
	Gene Itkis		(gene@cs.bu.edu)
From: asuncion@ac.dal.ca
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Algeria: Much Ado About Democracy...
Date: 12 Aug 92 17:52:24 -0300
Organization: Dalhousie University, Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada


Algeria: Democracy No Matter What ?

 Recent events in Algeria highlight one of those philosophical
conundrums concerning the nature of democracy. The problem could
be stated as follows:  given that  certain elements of the
Islamic fundamentalist movement in Algeria pose a threat to the
basic values of western democracy, is the state justified in
using any means at its disposal  (i.e., the suppression of
democratic rights) in order to protect the overall public
interest ? Despite the real threat posed by certain radical
elements in the FIS (political wing), the short answer is no. Why
?
 There are several reasons. First, if the FIS, who won the
election, were obligated to back up their promises with action,
they may indeed prove without a doubt that they are no better
than the previous government. As on prominent English journal
noted, "...if the rulers of the Islamic world were to open up
their political systems , their opponents might lose much of
their appeal." Secondly, if empowerment via free elections is a
sacred democratic principle , what is the point in having a
democracy if the fundamental concept of binding elections is
ignored ? One may argue that the alternative is unacceptable.
However, given that not all Islamic fundamentalists are hopeless
radicals, this argument and the corresponding conclusion: the end
justifies the means, is indeed suspect.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: bx573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alan H. Stein)
Subject: Re: Israel: Chutzpah at the Negotiating Table
Reply-To: bx573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alan H. Stein)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 92 15:31:36 GMT


In a previous article, stricher@masig.fsu.edu (Char Aznabul) says:

>nora gayle rivkis writes
>
>+ I would have them say they will not try to destroy Israel (they wouldn't
>+ succeed anyway) and then back that statement up with both unilateral ac-
>+ tions with respect to terrorism and ironclad treaties restricting mili-
>+ tary action.
>
>Yep, that's clear enough, and sufficient. The details may be problematic,
>tho. Would the "ironclad" treaties concerning military action be applicable
>to Israel as well? Israel has the right to secure borders - but so does
>her neighbors.
>
Since Israel has never had any territorial claims against any of its
neighbors, that's a non-issue as far as Israel is concerned.  It would
be nice, of course, for Syria to give back Lebanon and renounce its claim
to both Israel and Jordan, for Libya to give up its ambitions on the
Egyptian border, etc., etc., etc.  But that's an internal Arab matter,
and has nothing to do with the conflict with Israel.
-- 
bx573@cleveland.freenet.edu----Alan H. Stein----stein@uconnvm.uconn.edu
From: ehrlich@bimacs.BITNET (Gideon Ehrlich)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Bosnia, Concentration Camps, YIGAL ARENS
Date: 12 Aug 92 07:20:55 GMT
Organization: Math department, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, ISRAEL


 Yigal Arens writes:

> I wouldn't expect to hear any vociferous condemnations of "ethnic
> cleansing" from Jewish Zionist organizations since ideas quite similar
> to it seem to have been in the minds of the founders of Israel during
> the 1948 war and since.

Don't fool us Yigal. You expect nothing but seeing all people of
the world hating the state of Israel and  Jews in general
 ( beside seeing the check you permanently get from the PLO helping
   you running your HATE ISRAEL center - you are using a mild term for
   that center).

The fact is that there are a massive Arabic population in the state of
Israel, the fact is that there is a massive Arabic population in Gaza
Judea and Sammaria.

The fact is that not a single person Arabs considered him to be a Jew
was a loud to remain in his home when it was coquered by Arabs during
the 1948 war (old Jerusalem, kfar ezion, Revadim, Ein Zurim,...).

On the other hand Arabs were asked by Jews to remain at their homes
during that war . the TIMES reports that on 22.4.48 the Jewish hagana
asked ( using loudspeakers - if I remember correctly) Arabs to remain
at their homes but the most of the Arabian population followed their
leaders who asked them to leave the country.
( Look at the TIMES of the next day or some days after, I can't check
it now, please inform the net and me about the exact date and the
citation).

Yigal just imitates careness about human, sorrow . He never condemm
Arabs murderers. He knows that every second day Arabs at gaza and
samaria murdered and rape Arabs men women and kids suspected of not
collaborating with the PLO or the Hamas. Yigal consider it as a part
of the over all effort to annihilate the Jewish existance and thus he
supports it.

   Gideon Ehrlich      ERETZ YISRAEL
From: arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Lehi and nazies
Date: 20 Aug 92 01:28:06 GMT
	<1992Aug18.221313.5155@dscomsf.desy.de> <4925@blue.cis.pitt.edu.UUCP>
Organization: USC/Information Sciences Institute
In-reply-to: rdtst+@pitt.edu's message of 19 Aug 92 13:44:30 GMT

In article <4925@blue.cis.pitt.edu.UUCP> rdtst+@pitt.edu (Richard D Thorne) writes:
>
>   When someone says "Israel sanctions torture" they know full well
>   that the average Israeli, like the average US or Brit citizen is a
>   humane person who opposes torture.

Is this, like, a self-evident truth?  Now that you bring it up, my guess
would be that the average Israeli actually *supports* the torture
engaged in by Shabak.

Sure, the average Israeli, like the average person anywhere, opposes the
application of torture to people like him/her.  But Palestinians are
viewed as "different".

The question of the use of torture must have come up in polls in Israel.
Does anyone have any information on this?
--
Yigal Arens   "He seems like an average type of man.  He's not, like, smart.
USC/ISI        I'm not trying to bag on him or anything, but he has the same
arens@isi.edu  mentality I have -- and I'm in the eighth grade."     Vanessa
               Martinez, after VP Quayle's visit to her school-LA Times 5/21
From: rdtst+@pitt.edu (Richard D Thorne)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Lehi and nazies
Date: 18 Aug 92 21:11:41 GMT
Organization: University of Pittsburgh

| Point out to me again the place in which I have sought to defend the
| British record in Palestine.
| 
| =>  You are all to willing to accuse LEHI without
| =>  even beginning to accept responsibility for the greater wrongs committed by
| =>  the British.
| 
| In 1941, while Lehi were busy trying to start negotiations with Hitler, the
| British were busy fighting him.
| 
| 
| --
| ==================================================================
| -Jeremy Henderson            |  Une souris verte
|  egpv29@castle.ed.ac.uk      |  Qui courrait dans l'herbe
| ==================================================================
| 

        How is it possible to condemn LEHI for wanting to fight against the
  British without defending the British record?  From the perspective of the
  Yishuv the British were the enemy.  They prevented Jews from immigrating 
  while not similarly restricting Arab immigration.  The White Paper
  deprived Jews wanting to leave persecution in Europe any refuge.

  If you may recall, this thread started with the misrepresentation that
  since LEHI had contacts with the Nazis they shared a similar ideology.
  No one, except the people involved, can know what LEHI had in mind.  They
  took a position contrary to that of the establishment (i.e. Hagannah),
  but that doesn't make their decision wrong.  It might have been possible
  to put enough pressure on the British that they would have reversed their
  anti-Jewish policies.  That could have saved thousands of lives.  

               Richard Thorne rdt@med.pitt.edu
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Schmidling is simply wrong.
From: scott@anasaz (Scott Gibson)
Date: 12 Aug 92 14:17:59 GMT
Reply-To: scott@qip.UUCP (Scott Gibson)
Organization: Anasazi, Inc.  Phoenix, Az

In article <1992Aug11.002003.25592@bony1.bony.com> jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni) writes:
>
>The Iraquis used decoys, a tried and true military technique.
>Some were wood, some were inflatable plastic bags.  The Allied
>pilots took care of the decoys, alright.  Flying low is what
>lets a pilot recognize the real McCoy.  The Israelis would 
>likely have done a better job on this kind of target.

Non sequitor.  If true, this means merely that the Israelis might
have saved some bombs.  They still would have been required to run
missions to identify the targets (attacking if they were real), and
they still would have had to rely on conventional intelligence to
identify potential target areas.  I doubt they would save much
time, and they would seem to contribute little to the effort of
actually locating the targets (be the real or not).

Finally, I was aware that the Iraqis used inflatable dummies of
tanks.  I had not heard that they used such things for SCUD missile
launchers (though I don't doubt that they _did_ deploy some decoy
missile launchers).



-- 
But you knew your figure cut a cipher/ Through every crafted plan/ And 
playing our game for real/ Saw through our plumbing jobs/ And wayward glands/
To a meaning of your own, in bones."  - Iain M. Banks, "Use of Weapons"
Scott Gibson                   {ames!ncar!noao!asuvax,mcdphx}!anasaz!qip!scott
Disclaimer:  These opinions are my own, and may change without prior notice.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU (Brad Hernlem)
Subject: Re: Israeli Loan Guarantees
Reply-To: hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU (Brad Hernlem)
Organization: North Carolina State University
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 13:46:59 GMT

In article <1992Aug13.203425.5994@bony1.bony.com>, jake@bony1.bony.com
(Jake Livni) writes:
> In article <3568@copper.Denver.Colorado.EDU>
aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Anisa Alnoor Aldoubosh) writes:
> >I didn't see any postings in regard to Bush's latest ploy to
> >obtain popular support - guaranteeing the $10 billion to
> >Israel solely on Rabin's word of freezing settlement activity.
> 
> Actually, Rabin has already frozen the settlement activity (you must
> have missed a bunch of postings and international news) and the $10B
> guarantee is only on Bush's word, so far.  It seems that you have
> reality back to front again. 
> 

Actually, the settlements have not been frozen unless you consider
continued construction on settlements already under construction, a
"freeze". Also, there have been no guarantees, indeed it has been
suggested otherwise, that there will be an end to all future
construction in the occupied territories. I take Bush's move as a
complete and total sell-out of the Palestinians; they are for all
practical purposes "screwed". In my opinion, Bush's only salvation would
be to pressure Israel to change its internal policies as follows:

1. Stop the deplorable policy of indefinite and perpetual detention of
people without formal charges. As it is now, Israel can hold people for
up to six months in prison without ever bringing charges on them and
this arbitrary detention can be carried out numerous times.

2. Either eliminate Israel's law of return or amend it to recognize the
historical national presence of the Palestinians in the land that is now
considered Israel. The law as it is written is racist and
discriminatory; a Palestinian who was born in what is now Israel has no
right to return to the land of their birth while a Jew who has never
seen Israel has such a right!

3. Make discrimination in business and legal policy illegal.

These are all things that Israel should act on without regard to its
neighbors. These are matters that strike at the very heart of the claim
that Israel is democratic and respectful of human rights. These are
matters that require no negotiation with Israel's neighbors. They are
unilateral policy changes that Bush and future presidents should firmly
urge Israel to make before agreeing to extensive cooperation with
Israel. Without requiring these changes from Israel, our presidents make
asses of all Americans when they publicly declare "our" friendship with
Israel while criticizing the human rights violations of other countries
and their lack of democracy.

I pray for the Palestinians. Bush and Rabin have agreed together to
perpetuate their status as second-class people. While Bush may think
that he has taken this action to win votes, he certainly has lost mine.

Brad Hernlem (hernlem@che.ncsu.EDU)

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Lehi and nazies
Date: 19 Aug 92 19:58:11 GMT
	<24928@castle.ed.ac.uk> <4907@blue.cis.pitt.edu.UUCP>
Organization: USC/Information Sciences Institute
In-reply-to: rdtst+@pitt.edu's message of 18 Aug 92 21:11:41 GMT

In article <4907@blue.cis.pitt.edu.UUCP> rdtst+@pitt.edu (Richard D Thorne) writes:
>
>   If you may recall, this thread started with the misrepresentation that
>   since LEHI had contacts with the Nazis they shared a similar ideology.

This is patently false.  I can repost the relevant article if you wish.
That LEHI shared some ideological precepts with the Nazis was not a
deduction from their attempts to form an alliance -- it was clearly and
unambiguously stated by LEHI itself!

>   No one, except the people involved, can know what LEHI had in mind.

But it is more reasonable to assume that LEHIs written rationale had
more to do with what they had in mind, than something being freshly
invented by posters to usenet.
--
Yigal Arens   "He seems like an average type of man.  He's not, like, smart.
USC/ISI        I'm not trying to bag on him or anything, but he has the same
arens@isi.edu  mentality I have -- and I'm in the eighth grade."     Vanessa
               Martinez, after VP Quayle's visit to her school-LA Times 5/21
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast