HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: alok@cbnewsi.cb.att.com (alok.vijayvargia)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: 2nd RFD: SCIA (A violation of net guidelines)
Date: 10 Apr 92 00:29:53 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: AT&T

In article <1992Apr7.133125.10521@dartvax.dartmouth.edu>, geoffb@coos.dartmouth.edu (Geoff Bronner) writes:
> In <1992Apr6.203727.26072@cbnewsi.cb.att.com> alok@cbnewsi.cb.att.com (alok.vijayvargia) writes:
> 
> >An official RFD was posted for SCIA on October 19, 1991. This resulted in
> >posting a CFV on November 19, 1991.
> 
> A vote that is considered to be invalid and doesn't count.
> 
First the vote has not been officially invalidated.
Second, the RFD was certainly valid and six months have not expired
since the last RFD. That is where the violation of the guidelines has
occured.

> -Geoff
> --

Alok
From: tkim@sdcc3.ucsd.edu (Tonghyun Kim)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: The rec.arts.{comics.}manga wars continue
Date: 15 Apr 92 18:00:31 GMT
Article-I.D.: sdcc12.31681
Organization: University of California, San Diego

In article <1992Apr15.145723.27521@dartvax.dartmouth.edu> hades@coos.dartmouth.edu (Hades) writes:
>
>    Ok, then if this group is for the discussion of all manga, then why
>isn't there a provision in the RFD to remove r.a.anime, since all anime
>are indistinguishable from manga?

I didn't write the charter. The purpose of my posting was to let the
people know that "manga" has very broad range of meanings and
limiting it to a subset of comic is wrong. 

>    Ok, again. Is this group for the discussion of all manga or only for
>printed manga? If the former, please see above, if the latter then since
>printed manga can be called "comic" this group should be called
>rec.arts.comics.manga.

I guess you didn't read my follow-up message(s). I suggested that
rec.arts.comics.ASIAN would be a better choice than
rec.arts.comics.manga since r.a.c.a will be more logical and less
confusing than r.a.c.m. 


Tonghyun "Vajra" Kim
tkim@sdcc3.ucsd.edu

 
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: pckyip@athena.mit.edu (Patrick C Yip)
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.arts.manga vs. rec.arts.comics.manga
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1992 18:50:31 GMT

In article <6352@lib.tmc.edu> jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard) writes:
>
>I suspect that you'll get a lot of NO votes if you stick with rec.arts.manga
>as the name. Is it that important to you to salve your (mistaken) feeelings

I hope that won't be somebody creating multiple accounts and post 100 votes
from them. Tell me how to check such situation. And I esepecially want to
know how hard it is to detect such situation if he/she is a sysadmin, which
means he/she subjects to no scrutinization by any other.


Patrick YIP

Newsgroups: news.groups
From: mann@intacc.uucp (Jeff Mann)
Subject: invalid name - VOTE NO - CFV rec.arts.fine-arts.d
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1992 20:53:42 GMT
Organization: Inter/Access Artists' Centre Toronto

Lawrence Leff, in <1992Apr6.172126.288@uunet.uu.net> says:

>This is a Call For Votes for the news group
>rec.pictures.fine-art.d
[...]
>However, the images will NOT be posted to the proposed group.  They will
>be available in two alt groups:

VOTE NO!!! I don't think this vote should even have been called. This
is not a valid newsgroup name.

1. By definition, rec.pictures.fine-art.d would be for discussions of the
postings in rec.pictures.fine-art. Since there is no such group (and won't
be one), your group can not be created. The group which you are discussing
is in alt, so the .d group belongs there too.

2.  As a side effect of this group name, you are proposing the creation
of a rec.pictures hierarchy.  This is a DANGEROUS thing!  Soon there
will be people proposing and voting on rec.pictures groups that will
actually carry pictures -- and some of them might get passed.  We need
to keep picture groups out of the mainstream usenet -- they belong in
alt because of their volume.  I can't believe there was a proper CFD
held for this proposal without serious objection to a rec.pictures
hierarchy. It should NOT be created.

3. A moderated .d group also goes against the defacto definition of
what a .d group is all about.

>This group serves three purposes--
>  a) to organize the distribution of graphics images of *original* art works
>     created by the poster
>  b) to organize the distribution of graphics images created with computer
>     graphics techniques, again, created by the poster
>  c) to discuss applications of computers to the creation of artworks

I think these are excellent ideas, as long as the .d group is in alt.
However, there is no need to have the group moderated. Of course you can
have "official postings", but why deny posting priveleges to others, 
especially if you want to generate discussion as mentioned in c) above.

Note that rec.arts.fine is an appropriate place to discuss "applications
of computers to the creation of artworks".  You could always propose
rec.arts.fine.computer (I've always wanted rec.arts.fine.electric, to
include video, software, electronic and motorized art) or even
comp.graphics.art but I doubt there would be enough traffic to warrant
it -- but by all means, give it a try.

But PLEASE don't try to create rec.pictures.fine-art.d -- it would set 
some bad precedents. Thanks.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
|  Jeff Mann  Inter/Access Artists' Computer Centre, Toronto  [416] 535-8601 |
| ...uunet!mnetor!intacc!mann   intacc!mann@cs.toronto.edu  mann@intacc.uucp |
|      The Matrix Artists' Computer Network BBS: [416] 535-7598 2400 8N1     |
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: misc.jobs.offered reorganization
From: mmt@ccu1.aukuni.ac.nz (Mark Thomson)
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1992 22:03:24 GMT
Organization: University of Auckland, New Zealand.

root@dogear.spk.wa.us (Bob Kirkpatrick) writes:

>REMOVE: misc.jobs.offered

>CREATE: misc.jobs.entry    = positions offered to entrylevel applicants
>        misc.jobs.expert   = positions offered to the experienced
>        misc.jobs.recruit  = positions offered by recruitment agents

>NOT AFFECTED: misc.jobs.contract, misc.jobs.wanted, misc.jobs.misc


Personally I have yet to be convinced that this is necessary. I don't regard
the volume of posts as excessive. I can't remember seeing a large number of
posts in misc.jobs.offered being targetted specifically at recent graduates
and so wonder if a separate group is necessary for entry-level positions.
However if the consensus is to split .offered into .entry and .expert, I still
would not favour a .recruit group. Perhaps I'm missing something, but I don't
see why the involvement of an agency affects whether a job is worth looking
at. BTW, even if such a group were formed, I'm not sure that ".recruit" is
such a great name. In this part of the world, the term recruiter does not
necessarily connote an employment agency. Finally, if people are really so
concerned about resumes being posted in m.j.o., then perhaps it should be
moderated.


Mark Thomson
University of Auckland
New Zealand
Organization: The Pennylvania State University
Date: Friday, 10 Apr 1992 20:10:31 EDT
From: Ernie Oporto <EAO102@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RESULT: rec.arts.sf.starwars passes 383: 77

In my best Ed McMahon voise........YES!!!!!

I hope I get to be the first to post (not like I'll stay up all night to do
it.....or would I?)  I hear Walmart has a sale on lives...think I'll get one.

  _____)           ______        _)       _)  EAO102@PSUVM.PSU.EDU
                               __       __    Ernie "SHOKK" Oporto
______    ______            ___      ___      Computer Laboratory
                               __       __    Attendant for the Penn
(_______ _      _ ________ _     _) _     _)  State CAC Department
From: geoffb@coos.dartmouth.edu (Geoff Bronner)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.arts.manga
Date: 9 Apr 92 13:53:12 GMT
Reply-To: geoffb@Dartmouth.EDU
Organization: Amos Tuck School

In <1992Apr3.211858.9113@PDX.MENTORG.COM> donw@mentorg.com (Don Wakefield) writes:

>>then the group should be names rec.arts.comics.manga. 

>Certainly this is the argument one usually hears when a newsgroup is
>proposed which has some general connection to an already existing
>group.  I feel that manga are sufficiently different in their range of
>topics, packaging format, and cultural referents that a separate
>rec.arts subhierarchy is not too silly.

If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it is a duck.

Lets look at the proposed charter for rec.arts.manga.

 >       Discussion of Japanese comics (a.k.a. manga), and comics with
 >        strong manga influences.

 > This newsgroup will provide a forum for fan discussions
 > related to Japanese comics (known as "Manga" in Japanese) as well as
 > any comics strongly influenced by Japanese comics (such as comics in

In this small excerpt the word "comic" appears no less than 5 times.
If it looks like a comic, and gets called a comic, and gets sold as a
comic. It is a comic.

OK. Since there is a discussion group for 'comics' discussion belongs
there. Since the people who read 'manga' comics feel they have enough to
talk about on their own they have a right to a separate group from the
more general 'rec.arts.comics.' I'll go along with that. But if 'manga' is
Japanese for 'comic' and everyone who referes to them in English calls
them 'comics.' They really belong under 'comic.'

rec.arts.comics.japanese is an option but rec.arts.comics.manga says the
same thing really.
Manga may rate its own forum but it is not (based on the charter) anything
but a different TYPE of comic. It belongs in a comics hierarchy. If you
want to rename rec.arts.comics to rec.arts.comics.misc along the way I
really don't care. But put the new group where it belongs.

-Geoff
--
geoffb@Dartmouth.EDU  -  Computing Support Consultant, Tuck School of Business
	Contributing Dartmouth Alumnus
	"The only 9 you've ever seen was in arithmetic."
		-3rd Bass
From: wald@theory.lcs.mit.edu (David Wald)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: Why manga is a world apart from comics.
Date: 9 Apr 92 13:35:57 GMT
Organization: Laboratory for Computer Science, MIT

In article <axolotl.702784352@syzygy> axolotl@socs.uts.edu.au writes:
>Here's a clumsy, but hopefully helpful, explanation (pulled off alt.manga).
>
>==
>
>[...]  Manga has since evolved into a storytelling medium which usually
>feature one of more of the following characteristics:
>
>  - liberal use of sound effects, usually strongly integrated with the art.
>  - liberal use of halftone and shading patterns.  Almost always optimised
>     for black and white publication.
>  - well-developed conventions for representing action, emotion, romance,
>     satire, slapstick, "naughty bits", etc.
>  - meticulous depiction of inanimate objects like buildings, cars
>     and weapons.
>  - people and animals tend to be depicted in varying degrees of caricature.
>  - typeset speech bubbles (excepting "gag" strips).
>  - intended to be read rapidly.
>  - oriented towards creating mood, developing characters or telling a story,
>     rather than the realist scene-by-scene approach of
>     most western comics.
>
>==

All of which apply to one or another of the "western comics", with the
possible exception of the "well-developed conventions..." bit.  (I
don't know if there's any subspecies of western comics to which this
would apply as well as it does to manga.)

>(not just as a "comic" -- there are associated CDs, books, and
>significant influences on other media like animation and
>advertising), and satisfies just about everyone except those who
>think that they're "just comics" and should thusly be shoved under
>rec.arts.comics.

I have not said "just comics".  If I had said "just like the X-men", I
would understand your disagreement.  On the other hand, if
rec.arts.comics only discussed things like the X-men, I wouldn't read
it.  I think the term "comics" as it is used in that group name is
much broader than you give it credit for.

-David
--
============================================================================
David Wald                                           wald@theory.lcs.mit.edu
   "Blessed are the peacocks, for they shall be called sonship of God"
             -- Matt 5:9, from a faulty QuickVerse 2.0
============================================================================
Newsgroups: news.groups,news.admin
From: emv@msen.com (Edward Vielmetti)
Subject: Re: BENDING THE GUIDELINES IS BAD NEWS
Organization: MSEN, Inc. -- Ann Arbor, MI
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1992 23:35:32 GMT

Votes are for weenies.  Post early and post often.  

--Ed
Xref: sparky eunet.news.group:10 news.groups:10505
From: dww@bnr.co.uk (David Wright)
Newsgroups: eunet.news.group,news.groups
Subject: Re: RfD eunet.aviation
Date: 16 Apr 92 21:44:18 GMT
Reply-To: dww@bnr.co.uk (David Wright)
Organization: BNR Europe Limited, London Road, Harlow, Essex, GB

In the referenced article wolfgang@prosun.first.gmd.de writes:
#I for one had some problems initially, when I got some, err, not very nice
#answers when posting non-US stuff to r.a. Eunet.aviation could definitely
#limit these problems.

I didn't see that, but recently there have been a number of articles in
rec.aviation stressing that it *is* a world-wide group, and hoping that
non-US postings (including yours) do not disappear into a eunet group.
So I don't think you can justify a new group by a claim that r.a is
anti-European.

The question is, are there a lot of aviation issues people in Europe want
to talk about that are of no interest outside Europe?   Given that an
aviation group is for pilots etc, not for discussion about (for example)
which airline is best for the London-Paris hop,  I don't see what is so
special about Europe that we need to keep it out of a world-wide group.

But then, all I ever used to fly was gliders, and that was many years ago....

Regards,        "None shall be enslaved by poverty, ignorance or conformity"
       David Wright  BNR Europe Ltd, London Road, Harlow, Essex CM17 9NA, UK
dww@bnr.co.uk <or> ...uunet!mcsun!ukc!stl!dww <or> PSI%234237100122::DWW
From: T.D.G.Sandford@bradford.ac.uk (TDG SANDFORD)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD for new IMAGE PROCESSING newsgroup
Date: 13 Apr 92 10:07:33 GMT
Organization: University of Bradford, UK
Originator: 90908106@ccw310

In article <1992Apr12.020722.12169@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> cfm2h@fulton.seas.Virginia.EDU (Christopher Mullins) writes:
>
>>>  2) Select a name for the group.
>>
>>	comp.graphics.imageproc or something similar.  It should 
>>definitately be someplace in the comp.graphics tree.
>>
>
>I think a more appropriate name would be comp.dsp.image, or comp.dsp.2d.
>Image processing encompasses more than graphics - any 2 (or more) dimensional 
>set of data can be processed irrespective of its use in graphics.  The numerous
>comp.graphics.* groups show that most areas of image processing with ties to
>graphics already have a news group.  Comp.dsp.image would not be limited to
>graphics ideas but include dsp concepts without graphics connections - like
>feature extraction for pattern recognition (not necessarily with images, but
>any >1d signal), array processing and beamforming, etc.
>
Also comp.dsp.image is less likely to get noise from people who think that
image processing means using Microsoft PAINT (tm), or storing documents
on computers instead of filing cabinets - I have seen both described as such,
and although both are valid applications, they are not what I think people
would want from the proposed group.

--
Thomas Sandford | t.d.g.sandford@bradford.ac.uk
From: smith@ctron.com (Larry Smith)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: The rec.arts.{comics.}manga wars continue
Date: 10 Apr 92 14:10:56 GMT
Reply-To: smith@ctron.com
Organization: Cabletron Systems, Inc.

In article <1992Apr9.220154.3431@wdl.loral.com>, dcb@wdl1.wdl.loral.com (David C Blume) writes:
>rec.arts.books.pict.comics.domestic-usa
>rec.arts.books.pict.comics.manga

Well, that's just peachy, but we already HAVE a convention for groups that
are left over when they sprout specialized newsgroups, they get moved to .misc.
If this is what you believe, fine, you SHOULD have called for:

rec.arts.comics.misc
rec.arts.comics.strips
rec.arts.comics.manga

Notice that one group is already following the nomenclature, and it leaves
the whole rec.arts.comics group ready to absorb any new comic genre that comes
along, or to split into appropriate special interest groups when traffic gets
overwhelming:

rec.arts.comics.x-men
rec.arts.comics.archie
rec.arts.comics.b&w
rec.arts.comics.adult

and so on.  That's WHY we have the hierachy, and the obvious next step for
fans of manga is to create rec.arts.comics.manga.  THEN I'd suggest maybe
you float a proposal to rename rec.arts.comics to rec.arts.comics.misc.

Larry Smith (smith@ctron.com) No, I don't speak for Cabletron.
-------------------------------------------------------------
I have come to the conclusion that one useless man is called a "disgrace",
that two are called a "law firm", and that three or more become a "Congress".
Xref: sparky news.groups:10146 soc.culture.indian:14219 soc.culture.indian.american:1758
From: hades@coos.dartmouth.edu (Hades)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.arts.manga
Date: 9 Apr 92 20:37:24 GMT
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH

thwang@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Tommy Hwang) writes:

>In article <1992Apr8.172632.2715@tc.fluke.COM> moriarty@tc.fluke.COM (The Napoleon of Crime) writes:
>>I would recommend against it at this time; I have seen almost no spill-over
>>of manga discussions into rec.arts.comics, which is where this would be

>     This is because either side has no business with each other :) :)

    Even as sarcasm this is still a ludicrous statement. Any involvement
that r.a.c has with manga fans is up to the manga fans to initiate. You
aren't going to see any posts on r.a.c asking for the alt.manga regulars
to bring their discussions to r.a.c because we need the traffic. But if
alt.manga posters decide to post in r.a.c I don't forsee any problems
coming from the r.a.c regulars because it is a comic related discussion.

>>Suggestion: try posting in rec.arts.comics with the keyword "MANGA: " at the
>>beginning of the subject line for a month or two, and we'll see how the
>>traffic stacks up to everything else there.

>     Excellent suggestion, bad timing.  summer vacation is coming and
>many net readers will be GONE (in the U.S. anyway).

    Actually, this might be a good time. If during the summer months
manga discussions dominate r.a.c the it lends more evidence in favor of
a mainstream manga group.

--
-Hades  (Brian V. Hughes)   | Common Taxpayer Q&A: Q. If I use the 1040 how
 hades@Coos.Dartmouth.Edu   | do I indicate my preference for the Elvis stamp?
 Mac Database Developer     | A. You write THIN ELVIS or FAT ELVIS in the box
 Dartmouth Medical School   | "Spouse's Social Security #." -Dave Barry
From: lazlo@triton.unm.edu (Lazlo Nibble)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.arts.manga
Date: 8 Apr 92 17:30:38 GMT
Article-I.D.: lynx.9#rjvzk
Organization: Living in a satellite fantasy, waiting for the night to end.

limkiong@vms2.iscs.nus.sg (Twas brillig, and the slithy toves...) writes:

>> So push for rec.arts.comics => rec.arts.comics.misc.  It'll probably
>> happen sooner or later anyway. 
>
> This is highly unlikely to happen. Do you know how many people read that
> group? Can you imagine the screams that will echo throughout the net if
> this is proposed? 

I know exactly how many people read it -- I've been reading it since
before the Great Renaming, myself.  In general, r.a.c is a pretty
levelheaded group of people.  We wouldn't have much trouble in getting
r.a.c renamed to r.a.c.misc, considering the fact that the group already
has two subgroups and is gearing up for another possible split at the
moment.  Yes, there's be a handful of people who'd squeal about it
simply for the sake of squealing.  If you let that problem deter you,
you never get anything done on this net at all.

--
Lazlo (lazlo@triton.unm.edu)
Followup-To: news.groups
From: gritton@alaska.caedm.byu.edu (Jamie Gritton)
Subject: Re: RESULT:  soc.religion.mormon fails 135: 169
Lines: 17
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 92 17:31:07 MDT
Organization: Brigham Young University, Provo UT USA
In-reply-to: gritton@alaska.caedm.byu.edu's message of Mon, 13 Apr 92 17:26:25 MDT
Newsgroups: news.groups
	<ANDRE.92Apr13154751@farside.slc.mentorg.com>
Reply-To: gritton@byu.edu
Supersedes: <y#@byu.edu>

andre@farside.slc.mentorg.com (Andre' Hut) writes:

>In any case, I highly suggest that six months from now, a new proposal
 be made that
>is more agreeable to everyone.  The propose for the RFD-period is to work
 out any
>problems with the proposal so that there is a reasonable chance the vote will
>succeed.  I basically felt that the proponents of this proposal were
 ignoring the
>negative comments.

Go ahead and propose it, but don't count on it doing any better. There's
a fatal flaw here: in the temple/censorship issue, the two sides feel
strongly enough to kill a proposal they don't want. It will just change who
votes no.
--
James Gritton - gritton@byu.edu - I disclaim
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: scs@iti.org (Steve Simmons)
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.arts.manga
Organization: Industrial Technology Institute
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1992 13:44:12 GMT

dcb@wdl1.wdl.loral.com (David C Blume) writes:

>It is my *honest* (and as objective as I can get) opinion that the couplets
>of [rec.arts.comics and rec.arts.manga], or [rec.arts.comics.us and
>rec.arts.comics.manga] are the appropriate names.

I respect and understand your statement, but will disagree.  R.a.c.manga
is the most appropriate name.
-- 
 "Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for you are crunchy and taste
  good with ketchup."  seen on a button, author unknown
From: hades@coos.dartmouth.edu (Hades)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.arts.dragonlance
Date: 13 Apr 92 22:47:43 GMT
Article-I.D.: dartvax.1992Apr13.224743.17452
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH

repayne@newstand.syr.edu (Robert E. Payne) writes:

>In article <1992Apr4.180931.15062@uunet.uu.net>, EGIBBS@csci1.csci.unt.edu (Austin Gibbs) writes:
>|> Group: rec.arts.dragonlance
>|> Status: unmoderated

>	I would find such a group a good addition.  I find that there
>aren't enough newsgroups with this type of fantasy content.  That is
>primarily why I read news, to get some entertainment and relieve some
>stress (maybe why I flame people quite a bit ;-P Well, anyway, I guess I
>have to vote yes on such a group, I appreciate the dragonlance series
>and would favor a place to discuss it.

    If you want to discuss the books of the Dragonlance series there are
currently two places in which you would within group charters to post.
The first is rec.arts.sf.written, but it is probably not the best
choice, since all of the Dragonlance material is based on the AD&D
role-playing game published by TSR and the appropriate group for the
discussion of such is rec.games.frp.
    I really don't see how anyone can take this proposal seriously. If
you are a regular reader of either of the 2 groups that I mention you
know that there is basically zero traffic with regards to Dragonlance.
How can anyone justify a newsgroup devoted to a topic that has no
discussion traffic?


--
-Hades  (Brian V. Hughes)   | Common Taxpayer Q&A: Q. If I use the 1040 how
 hades@Coos.Dartmouth.Edu   | do I indicate my preference for the Elvis stamp?
 Mac Database Developer     | A. You write THIN ELVIS or FAT ELVIS in the box
 Dartmouth Medical School   | "Spouse's Social Security #." -Dave Barry
Xref: sparky news.groups:10365 news.admin:3579