From: Christian.Walters@p0.f14.n373.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Christian Walters)
Newsgroups: hsv.religion
Subject: re: That sin thing
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 92 18:48:36 CDT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:373/14.0 - The Aviation BBS, Meridianville AL

James Reed says:
>Being born human does not force us (or doom us) to fall short of God's
>standards.
 
But doesn't the Bible say that we must be born again before we can get a
reserved spot in heaven? Or is that a modern interpretation? Wherever it
comes from, it looks like standing orders are to not admit anyone past
the Pearly Gates unless he's been "saved."
 
>It provides us the choice to either "do the right thing"
>or rebel.  Everyone at some point (or many points) in their life
>chooses to sin.
 
Why? Why is it automatically assumed that we choose to sin? Is it
something about human nature? If it is, then I don't see why we should
answer for a design flaw. Or is it something about free will? But we
assume that residents in Heaven, or at least God himself, have free
will, and never choose to sin.
 
>Haven't you every done something that you knew wasn't right?
>(Don't answer that :-).
 
Sometimes you are absolutely no fun at all :)
 
But no, I've never done anything that I knew was wrong. I *have* done
bad things, but they all seemed like good ideas at the time. Maybe I was
fooled by someone, maybe I wasn't thinking or was misinformed, or maybe
I was angry and my thinking was cloudy. But I've never sat down and
plotted an evil. All my evils were spotted through hindsight :) Do I
still get to burn, because I can't believe in God?
 
>Let me correct that last paragraph.  There has been one person who did
>not choose to sin, Jesus.  By living a perfect life, He was the proof
>by example that being human does not "force" a person to sin.
 
But even though we're not forced to, it's a given that we do anyway?
Hmmm...
 
Besides, I remember a story where Jesus lost his temper in Jerusalem,
and trashed the joint :) I've been angry enough to do damage before, but
the only thing I ended up breaking was the wall that I punched (and
quite nearly my knuckles :) )
 
>> The position that
>> we're all supposed to apologize or atone for these "God guaranteed
>> sins" strikes me as odd, to say the least.
 
>Apologize perhaps, but we are not capable of atoning for our sins.
 
Whatever. Just the fact that we have to apologize is a little bizarre.
 
>By "atone" I mean to make things OK with God.  By sinning or rebelling
>we have shown ourselves flawed, and being flawed we are incapable of
>making things OK.
 
I have never once, in all my life even when I was a churchgoer,
understood this. God is perceived as a perfect being capable of creating
imperfect beings? It doesn't make sense. Why would he want to? What does
he have to gain from us?
 
>By taking our sins on Himself and willingly dieing on the cross, Jesus
>did what was necessary to satisfy God's requirements. No, I don't
>understand how Jesus' death did that.  No, I don't know why God would
>choose to create such a master plan for the world.
 
Then why do you keep on believing in Christianity if you admit that it
doesn't make sense? And we're not talking about blowing down some city
walls with sonics of making the sun stop. This is the CRUCIFIXION, the
focal point of the whole religion! *I* don't know what God had in mind
when he slaughtered his own son. Seems damned cold-blooded to me - even
if he didn't stay dead.
 
>Your choice of the word "design" is interesting.  It makes it
>impossible to declare an event a miracle until we can determine the
>intentions of the <whatever> that caused the event.  It also still
>requires us to fully determine the laws of nature.  Oh, well :-).
 
I know. Ain't I a stinker? :)


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