From: brad@cup.portal.com (Paul B Anders)
Newsgroups: rec.motorcycles
Subject: Re: BICYCLE CRASH
Date: 6 Apr 92 17:51:22 GMT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)

In response to John Hamilton, I wrote :

>> PBA> Well, John, bicyclists talk shit when someone condones the message of
>> PBA> "GET YOUR BICYCLE OFF THE DAMN ROAD!" as you have done. I'm sure as a
>> PBA> motorcycle rider you would do the same if it were suggested that
>> PBA> motorcycles should be taken off the road. They also talk shit when
>> PBA> somebody implies in a message (your response to Mr. Smits) that running
>> PBA> over a bicyclist who is breaking a law is a good way to deal with the
>> PBA> problem. So stop whining.
>>
>JH> Once again, and slowly, I NEVER said that. If you can't quote correctly,
>JH> and attribute correctly, don't bother. You look stupid blaming me for
>JH> what someone else wrote. You are the whiner.
>
>Once again, and slowly, try to remember what you actually wrote. I know it's
>convinent to forget your inconsistancies when they are pointed out to you, 
>but most adults learn to deal with it. Notice again that I did not say that
>you wrote the statement, but that you condoned it.

I forgot to include the part of your earlier posting (response to Mr. Smits)
where you said:

>.......................I am not talking about speed violations, but about
>running lights/signs, failing to yield, obstructing the flow of traffic,
>reckless lane changes, riding on the sidewalk (ILLEGAL, damnit! unless cars
>and motorcycles can go there, too), and all kinds of negligent behavior. If
>it weren't that most car drivers yield to them whether they should or not,
                                                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>we'd loose thousands of bicyclists each year to front bumpers.

"whether they should or not", is the statement that I refer to when I say 
that you imply that running over a bicyclist who is breaking the law is 
a good way to deal with the problem. 

Why are you suprised at the response to your message? First, you commend a 
a statement telling bicyclists to "STAY OFF THE DAMN ROAD", then you 
suggest that running over bicyclists is ok. What if I were to suggest that
because SOME motorcyclists (not all) exceed 100 mph on Highway 35 regularly,
they should be banned from Skyline? Or what if I were to suggest that 
opening a car passenger door on a motorcyclist who is riding right side of
the right lane is the way to deal with this illegal behavior? What kind
of response would I expect from motorcyclists?

The problem is enforcement. Bicyclists do not feel that their actions will
be punnished, so they ride as they may. If you are sick of seeing bicyclists
running stop signs and breaking other traffic laws, then talk to the cops.

I ride in a huge (50-100 rider) training crit each Tue/Thu at Mission College
every week. There is a 1.85 mi loop that has low traffic, and one stop sign, 
under the jursidiction of Mission's police. The ride originally started with 
only 5-10 riders a couple of years ago, so it was easy to deal with cars as
we approached the stop sign. We stopped. As the ride grew, the tendency to 
"blow" the sign increased, culiminating in no slowdown at all for the entire 
pack of 50-100 riders. The Mission cops simply ignored it, until they 
started getting complaints from the students. 

The cops started pulling over the pack, giving us lectures about how we should
only go through (without stopping) when there was no traffic, and coming to 
a complete stop otherwise. As you can imagine, this did not work, and soon
we were blowing it every time. We took on the role of being enforcers, yelling
at riders who blew the sign. They just told us to get screwed. Finally, when
we were pulled over one day, I told the cop to give out tickets (BTW, I like
stopping, it causes the riders in the back who just suck wheel all day to 
get dropped). One ticket was given out, and compliance improved considerably.
A few more, and I expect that wholesale compliance will be just around the 
corner. If a diehard group of cat 2,3,4,5 and wanna-be's such as ours can
change it's behavior in response to traffic law enforcement, then so can the
bicycling population in general.

Retract your earlier support of banning bicycles and running over them to
enforce the law, and the flame-throwers will be switched off.

Brad Anders
brad@cup.portal.com
Sunnyvale, CA