From: arron@waikato.ac.nz
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Reconciling OT with NT
Date: 18 Dec 92 15:42:10 +1300
Organization: University of Waikato, Hamilton, New Zealand

> Didn't your god know they were going to sin?  Heck it was the only sin
> they could do, yet they found it quickly enough.  Why was your god so
> surprised by their sinning?

He may well have known they were going to sin, he wasn't surpised that I know,
he just wanted a people who lived for him ,they didn't. Adam & Eve's choice is
their choice.
 
> According to some interpretations of Revelations only virgin men are
> allowed in heaven anyway.

Doesn't work for me, the teachings of Christ and Paul throughout the NT tell me
I'm saved. (And I apologize, I don't know the interpretation of the particular
scripture reference you are talking about)
 
> He did a really bad job of it then.  How can a perfect omnipotent being
> fail so miserably if he really tried?  Or maybe he didn't really try...

He tried, there was only one reason that everything could go wrong, but Adam &
Eve were your average Joe Sucker of the street who let some smart snake tell
them what to do.
 
> I assume that you don't believe the OT is a record of every
> syllable ever spoken between your god and Adam and Eve.
> If you do believe that it is a complete record then where does
> your god give either of them a chance to repent?
> If you don't believe it is a complete record then how do you know they
> didn't ask forgiveness?

I certainly don't beleive it was a record of every syllable. It says that God
walked and talked with them each day. (Hard to fit that in 3 or 4 pages). But
God could not be near sin (and I've had to say that more than once), once they
were separated from God he then had to come up with a way for them to be
cleansed. At first it was based on your own attempts to be good, then he gave
Moses 10 basic guidelines to make it easier, then (because we were still so bad
at it) he gave us Jesus.

> 'So be good for goodness sake...'  Hey I've heard this before somewhere...

I am not saying 'be good for goodness sake' I am saying let Christ give you
forgiveness so you can spend eternity with the God who loves you.

> I wish it would hurry up and get it over with.  Then we can get on with
> life.  BTW, the second coming has been predicted for about 2000 years now.
> When do *you* think it will really get here?

No, if you have not sorted out your separation from God, there will not be a
'life' to get on with. I don't know when Christ will return ('and you will not
know at what time I will come to you' Rev 3:3).
 
> Hold it.  In the OT plenty of people hung around with this god and plenty
> of them turned from him.  It doesn't sound like they HAD to accept him.
> Why would it be any different for me?  Noah, Lot, Moses, all hung around
> with god on a regular basis yet they each managed to piss him off.

So did Adam & Eve. But they all acknowledged God as God. They were all FORCED
to accept he was real, but God generally only did that to help the rest of us
find him as well. A few pointers/signs here and there, but the rest takes a bit
of choice from us.


Following are my reasons for accepting what this book calls
self-contradictions. I do not expect you will believe straight out what I say
... but the whole point I am making is that God can easily bring understanding
beyond the obvious first look. Christianity is a belief as well as a fact !!!
There is more to God than the black and white of the Bible, and the bits you
have trouble understanding can be clarified by the power of the Holy Spirit !!!

My arguments are not to convince you, as I have said only the Holy Spirit can
do that.

> From "Self-Contradictions of the Bible", by William Henry Burr in 1859
> (originally posted by someone else):
> 
> Example:
> God CAN be seen:
>     "And I will take away my hand, and thou shalt see my backparts." 
>     (Ex. 33:23)
>     "And the Lord spake to Moses face to face, as a man speaketh to 
>     his friend." (Ex. 33:11)
>     "For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." (Gen. 32:30)
> 

NIV Study Note ... Only God's back, feet, or form in a symbolic sense may be 
seen.

> God CANNOT be seen:
>     "No man hath seen God at any time." (John 1:18)

NIV study note ... Since no human being can see God as he really is, those who
saw God saw him in a form he took on temporarily for the occaision.

>     "And he said, Thou canst not see my face; for there shall no man see me 
>     and live." (Ex. 33:20)
>     "Whom no man hath seen nor can see." (1 Tim. 6:16)
> 
> Other exmaples:
>    God is CRUEL, UNMERCIFUL, DESTRUCTIVE, and FEROCIOUS:
>         "I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy." (Jer. 13:14)
>         "Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and
>         spare them not, but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling."
>    God is KIND, MERCIFUL, and GOOD:
>         "The Lord is very pitiful and of tender mercy." (James 5:11)
>         "For his mercy endureth forever." (1 Chron. 16:34)
>         "The Lord is good to all, and his tender mercies are over all his 
>         works." (Ps. 145:9)
>         "God is love." (1 John 4:16)
> 

Those one's above depend on who you are don't they. God wants to be good to us,
but once again, can not be a party to sin.

>    God tempts men:
>         "And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham."
>         (Gen 22:1)
>    God tempts NO man:
>         "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God; for God 
>         cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man." (James 1:13)
> 

NIV ... God tests our faith, Satan tempts us to evil. God did not let Abraham
kill his son.

>    The father of Joseph, Mary's husband, was JACOB:
>         "And Jacob begat Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus."
>         (Matt. 1:16)
>    The father of Joseph, Mary's husband, was HELI:
>         "Being the son of Joseph which was the son of Heli." (Luke 3:23)

There are possible explanations such as whether it was the 'legal' ancestor
(Joseph's was Jacob's heir) as opposed to blood father. But who cares as Christ
was born of God not man anyway !!!

>    Judas committed suicide by hanging:
>         "And he cast down the pieces of silver into the temple and departed,
>         and went out and hanged himself." (Matt. 27:5)
>    Judas did NOT hang himself, but died another way:
>         "And falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all of his
>         bowels gushed out." (Acts 1:18)

NIV ... 'hanged' may have meant 'Impaled'. He burst apart when he had
decomposed.

>    Elijah went up to heaven:
>         "And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven." (2 Kings 2:11)
>    NO ONE BUT CHRIST ever ascended into heaven:
>         "No man hath ascended up to heaven but he that came down from heaven,
>         ... the Son of Man." (John 3:13)

This is taken out of context. Christ is saying that no person had looked into
heaven and come back to give the world a glowing description. Therefore noone
would understand when Christ described what he has seen.

> Feel free to explain.  And yes, I suppose I could face him.  Heck, if he's
> so omnipotent then he could face me without blinding me, right?

True ... He can reveal himself in ways that can be comprehended.

> Let me get this straight, I need to sacrifice an animal for your god to
> even pay attention to me?  You say he HAD TO reject what was wrong... why?
> Who was making him reject it?  What or who was powerful enough to make
> your god do what he didn't want to do?

I most certainly did not say that, God prior to Christ provided the sacrifice
system to give people some sacrifice to lay their sins on, NOW Christ has died
for YOU.

God is a perfect just, sinless God, he can not go against he nature. Only he
himself is powerful enough to make him like he is !!!
 
> My eternity is spent right here, thank you.  I've no evidence of any
> method of extending my time indefinately.

When you refind Christ, then you will receive the eternity I am speaking about,
and the word of God will reveal that to you.
 
> I turned them all over and looked underneath. ;-)

This is a stupid blithering statement, and other than the fact that my original
statement still holds I wouldn't even answer it. But like I said, you are
looking in the wrong place !!!!

> Well, it's almost Thursday, the 17th here.  Oh, good point...  is your god
> on PST or GMT?

Up to you, it's between you and God, not me. You can lay down your own rules,
then it's up to God to choose whether or not he will play by the same ones. By
the way, God stopped the sun setting for hours one day and took it back
another, which means I think he goes beyond PST or GMT.

Anyway ... God bless you ... hope you have a great day.

Arron.

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from:arron@waikato.ac.nz			Arron Scott
						University of Waikato
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Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc