From: levine@symcom.math.uiuc.edu (Lenore Levine)
Subject: Re: Why are many low-income women fat? (was Re: Separate but Equal?)
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 20:07:54 GMT

rsrodger@wam.umd.edu (Yamanari) writes:

>In article <Bzo75G.LBB@news.cso.uiuc.edu> levine@symcom.math.uiuc.edu (Lenore Levine) writes:
>>rsrodger@wam.umd.edu (Yamanari) writes:
>>The thoughtful paragraph you quote above is, unfortunately, not
>>by me. It is by a man saying that he appears younger than he is.


>	True.  I did misattribute.  In any case, it still applies--
>	to both men and women.

>>I note that my mother appears younger than she is; and she once
>>got in trouble, on a bus, when an angry driver refused to believe that
>>she was over 65. I do think the driver's reaction was sincere, even
>>though he was a man.

>	It happens, especially in interactions that last a 
>	short time.  However, it doesn't last more than about
>	5 or 6 minutes.  

I know I was mistaken about my friend, Eugenia's, age for a long time --
until she told me. We are about the same age, but we each thought the
other was considerably younger.

I note that neither one of us uses alcohol or tobacco, or wears makeup;
and we are both of Eastern, not Western, European ancestry. I suspect
some of these factors may be relevant. 

>>I also refuse to believe that any social injustice cannot be minimized
>>(though few can be eliminated entirely). In particular, I note that the 
>>physical appearance of women was *not* as overvalued 30 years ago,
>>as it is now. 

>	Sure it was.  If they valued other things more, well, that
>	was then this is now and whatever.  Appearance is not 
>	"overvalued" it is simply valued higher than other things
>	(like "cooking skill" and "child rearing skill").  Would
>	you prefer one of these others valued highest?

I would prefer that human attributes be valued in the contexts in which
they are relevant. I think nowadays there are a great many women living
in fear that their appearance doesn't measure up to some unrealistic
standard; and living in this fear to the point where they can no longer
take any sincere delight in their bodies. Yes, I would say that this
is overvaluing appearance. (And if you have any doubt women live like
this, or, at least, are encouraged to live like this, read Redbook...)

If thirty years ago, women had less fear that their appearance wasn't
perfect, and more fear that their *homes* weren't perfect, this was
not an *improvement*. But it was an example of how things can change. 

And by the way, I think child rearing skill is always important,
and should always be valued, in both men and women. If our society 
regards this skill as unimportant, it does not say much for our society...

>	What is most valued in a man?  Looks, probably.  After
>	that, probably money-making ability.  Yeah, this makes me
>	feel all warm and happy inside.
> 
>	Tough.

>>If you will take a fast rewind back to Victorian times, you note
>>that birth was much more important then than it is now; so important

>	Shifting priorities.  You'll find, however--all through
>	time that physical appearance has always been valued extremely
>	highly.  Sure, it would do no good to marry a lowly peasant, but
>	s/he'll make a great bedwarmer.  How many bastards did these
>	noblemen father?  How many illegitimate children did these
>	noblewomen bear?  Quite a few.

I did not say that physical apparance was ever *not* valued; I did
say that there have been societies in which it was valued less than
it is in ours. In many of these societies, noblemen had many lowly-born
mistresses, but they didn't feel any social pressure to choose mistresses
who met a particular standard of beauty (as opposed to women they
personally wanted to go to bed with). For example, Czar Peter III's
publicly acknowledged mistress was a hunchback.

By the way, do you realize how many men there are in this culture, who
have the attitude, "Sure, it would do no good to marry a lowly fat girl,
but she'll make a great bedwarmer!" 

Cynically yours,
Lenore Levine

P.S. Do you think it is acceptable to choose a candidate for a 
technical position, based on physical appearance? If you were
on a committee to evaluate job candidates, and one of the other
members of the committee said, "Don't hire that woman, she's
a dog!" what would you do?
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