From: jamalin@newton.ccs.tuns.ca (Nadeem Jamali)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
Subject: Re: Private Education in Pakistan
Date: 27 Dec 92 19:27:40 GMT
Organization: Technical University of Nova Scotia, Halifax, N.S.

In article <1hibjgINNmin@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> khan@ces.cwru.edu (Mansoor Khan) writes:
>>>	Ever heard, ek qadam aagay, toe doe qadam peech'hay. i.e. One step
>>>	forward, two steps backward. Pakistan is only two steps backward
>>>	all the time. Two years ago we had Mr. 10%, now recently someone
>>>	mentioned there is a Mr. 90%.
>>>	Education system in Pakistan is such that middle class is taught
>>>	in its Islamiat class in grade nine, that "Alraashi Val-murtashi
>>>	Kullaa-humaa fin-nar" i.e. People who take and give bribes
>>>	will both get the hell fire.  But, do you think people like
>>>	Zardari go thru same classes. No, he is a St. Patricks Drop-out.
>>>	Oh, please dont tell me about his educational achievements in UK :-)
>>>	In other words, people who finally get the control of Govt. etc
>>>	in Pakistan are never told in their education that what is wrong
>>>>	with taking rishvats( Commissions) :-)
>>>	Pakistan needs mass education. How we are gonna get money
>>>	to do this. Take money from people like Navaz Sharif( who took
>>>	out billions of loans from Govt. Banks during Zia's time and never
>>>	returned a paisaa) and Zardari( who collected 10%) and 
>			       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>>A large part of your postings is about Asif Zardari. You have referred to him as
>>a corrupt person a lot of times. I really wonder what makes you so confident
>>about these claims. So far, each of the cases decided upon has shown him
>>innocent. Is it possible that there are other reasons for your hatred for this
>>person who has been in jail for past two years and has not been proven guilty
>>on even one of the charges... to keep whom in jail, the president has limited
>>the powers of high court judges for the first time after the end of Zia's
>>Martial Law?
>
>	First of all, since when do you believe that the current President
>of Pakistan is an honest person. He is an idiot.  Why should he or Zia care
>about Paksitan's high court. 

Your reasoning cycle seems wierd. What are you talking about? When did I say
the current president is an honest person?

>	Coming back to Zardari, Mr. 10%, please read Saad Shafqat's
>shafqat say bhurpoor story of Zardari.  No I have no reason to hate 
>Zardari except that he is a crook, jahil, rishvat-khore, and has no class.
								  ^^^^^^^^

I'm curious when according to you, someone has no class :) Which class are you
talking about. Do you have any class yourself? What are the qualifications for
entering your class? using dirty language? hating people ? At least I 
think that there is a strong reason to consider him innocent if he is proven
innocent despite Nawaz Sharif's being in office. How can you call him a crook 
and rishvat-khore? He did not hold any government office... how could he
accept any bribes in the first place? Are you trying to imply that he
was receiving bribes on his wife's behalf? Then, why don't you call
Benazir rishvat-khor and crook :) Probably because no one is going to 
believe you...

>Jaan-nay vaalay jaantay hai'n that several years ago he got a girl pregnant
>in Karachi. When he refused to marry her( yeh to bechpan say P.M. say shadi
>kernaa chahtay thay!) she committed suicide.  The fact that Bezamir
>married him  shows that she herself has no class.
>

Nonsense... I know something about Asif Zardari that you don't. Unfortunately
if I go into details some people will feel seriously offended. I'll just say
that the mere idea of Asif sleeping with a "Muhajir" girl is ridiculous.

>>>	Gauhar Ayub( future President of Pakistan who was the biggest
>>>	rishvat khore of 60's) and open schools in Jehlum, Tharparkar,
>>>	and haripur. There is enough money in Pakistan, but it is 
>>>	stolen by Shiyateens. 
>>>	You will notice that those who make money by working hard and
>>>	these people usually come from good family backgrounds, will
>>>	always invest back in the community. Hakeem Saeed should be
>>>	congratulated on his efforts to open a University called
>>>	Hamdard University outside Karachi. In my 21 days in Karachi 
>>>	after 9 years, I was able to visit Hamdard University last
>>>	year. It is a huge project, and the resident project engineer
>>>
>>>	told me that it will be completed by 96/97. To my amazement
>>>	I saw books like Kuo's control Engineering, and Morris Mano's
>>>	Computer Logic Design. I saw boxes and boxes of books dnated by
>>
>>Looks like you went to Karachi after too long a time. We used Mano's book
>	Yes, I was there after a long long time. I did not really 
>	expect Kuo's control engineering's new edition and Mano's
>	book in Hamdard University's library.
>
>>at ICS Karachi in 1988 :) 
>   ^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>ICS may perh ker bhee naa-shukray ho! BCCI had an effect on your life too :-)

What ???

>
>>>	people like you and me and us to HU's library. Hamdard Foundation
>>>	has allocated 200 crores of Rupees for the project. When I asked
>>>	the Chief Financial Officer of Hamdard Foundation about donation
>>>	from other resources, he said that there is almost none from
>>>	Pakistani industrialists. So there is some hope. But we need 
>>>	more people like Hakeem Saeed. Aga Khan University is another
>>
>>I guess Hakeem Saeed owes a lot to Pakistan... Let me give you a hint...
>>If I'm not wrong, Hamdard is the biggest importer of cortisone in Pakistan. 
>>No wonder Rooh Afza makes one feel great :) :)
>
>	I do not know why Rooh Afza makes one feel great( Does it ?), but
>	you are right that Hakeem Saeed owes a lot to Pakistan. HE has made 
>	millions and billions in Pakistan. He is doing what he should.
>	He must spend money on projects in Pakistan and he is doing so.
>	Yes, he owes a lot to Pakistan. And I guess, he knows that.
>
>>There aren't many philanthropists in Pakistan. These are all ways of bribing
>  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>I agree, we should have more.
>
>>the government.... and appeasing the people. Same applies to Agha Hasan Abdi's
>>CS schools.
>
>	Chalyae app kee baat sir-aankho'n per, to yeh irshaad keejyae
>	kay aissee bribes why not from Jatoi, Bhutto and NAvaz Sharif.
>	This is one bribe I will support. I am anxious to see Bugtee
>	opening a school in Dera Bugti to bribe the govt. or his people.
>	Why rishvat khore zardari does not give such bribe to
>	one lakh jahils of his zardari tribe. They need such bribes.
>	How come the thief Navaz Sharif who stole billions of rupees,
>	does not give a sadqaa-khairaat to the poor of Pakistan and
>	opens a school in Laala Moosa. 
>	I support these bribes to the people of Pakistan from Aga Khan,
>	Adamjee, Hakeem Saeed, And Agha Hasan Abdi, and N.E. Dinshaw.
>	Thanks to the bribe from Agha Hasan Abdi, you got educated in
>	computer science in Pakistan. I had to freeze my ass in
>	Cleveland starting 1981, because no one made had such a bribe yet.
>	Thanks to the bribe from Adamjees. This bribe made me go to
>	Adamjee college for HSC. Thanks to the rishvat from N.E.D. that
>	I was able to attend N.E.D. U. for a week. Too bad for me that
>	no murtishi had given a bribe yet for forming a comp. engr dept
>	in Paksitan and I had to come to U.S.
>	Jamali, this is one bribe I am looking forward for the rest 
>	of Pakistanis.
>	

Mansoor, you're not getting my point again. I'm not saying there shouldn't
be schools opened at those places. It's the absurdity of expecting corrupt
people to open schools for no reason. Agha Hasan Abdi or Hakeem Saeed are
bribing the government so that they are allowed to do whatever wrong they
are doing. Hakeem is endangering the whole country's health by making people
take cortisone like that. He has to give this bribe to the government so
that the government and he himself can look like good guys. Now, why would
a corrupt government official spend money on education? He has nothing to
gain... he'll au contraire take bribes from people like Hakeem to make
himself look good. I do not consider all the people that you call corrupt
as corrupt. But if they were, it is ridiculous to expect them to be 
philanthropists. Corruption is not limited to the act of taking/paying
a bribe. It's a mind that is corrupt. Not everyone that accepts a bribe
is corrupt... nor does a corrupt person have to take a bribe to deserve the
title. To understand this you have to go into the philosophy of law and
moral values and ethics. It is specially complicated in the context of
countries like ours that are living under borrowed ideologies and 
philosophies.

>
>>>	such example. Even BCCI donated money for two computer science
>>>	colleges( one each in lahore and karachi). Agha Hasan Abdi should
>>>	also be thanked by Pakistan for providing seed money for the
>>>	new engineering school which is going to start under the leadership
>>>	of Dr. A. Qadir Khan. I did not like it to be named after
>>>	Ghulam Ishaq though. For what. What is Ghulam Ishaq's contribution
>>>	to any thing in Pakistan. But, any way...
>
>>Gimme a break :) Had he not been there, who would have sacked Bhutto.. 
>	Yes, Ishaq is as bad as bhutto.
>

I disagree...

>>>	In 1992 I also saw a new school in Gulshan-e-Iqbal which was
>>>	built by the Chinyoti Community of Karachi.
>>>	So people are doing things, but much more has to be done.
>>>	There is no reason why there should not be upto 10 Universities in
>>>	Karachi and another 10 in Lahore. These are big cities.
>>
>>Karachi is a much larger city than Lahore, if I'm not wrong. How come you're
>>biased against Karachi?
>	Muhaavaratan bolaa thaa meri jaan. Agar ek ek college bhee open ho
>	jaa-ae Karachi or Lahore may, toe voh bhee enayat ho gee.
>
>	But If I had a choice I will spend more on Education in Panjab than
>	in any other place in Pakistan. The reason is that 60% of Pakistan
>	lives in Panjab. Even if Karachi is educated, it can not do jack shit 
>	when people in Panjab send people like asghar khan, mustafa khar,
>	jatoi( Sind's reject) and other juhulaa to our national assembly.
>	Even if rest of the 40% of Pakistan is educated, 60% people can
>	send enough jahils to the assembly who can select Navaz or Bezamir
>	as Primeminister. But, if Panjab was educated and selected the
>	rulers who cared about Pakistan,  then Education, industry, prosperity
>	will automatically come to Pakistan.
>	Thus I will support preferential treatment for Panjab in Education.
>	Strong Panjab means strong Pakistan eventually.
>	Education in Panjab is a must for Pakistan's taraqqee.
>	Jehaalet in Panjab will destroy Pakistanis in other provinces too.
>

What can I say? you are using the kind of language Saad would only attribute
to class-less people :) I agree there should be more schools in Panjab than
in Sindh (at least as long as government money is being spent). If you recall
you were talking about Karachi and Lahore.. not Sindh and Punjab. Karachi
is the capital of Sindh in the same way as Lahore is the capital of
Punjab. If you build more schools in Karachi because it is the capital,
then people from throughout the province should be allowed to come there...
forget it... I don't think there is any point in my trying to repeat these
things. 

>
>>>	How about more colleges for Gwadar and Pasni. Why Bugti
>>>	does not donate the money he has looted for the establishment
>>>	of just one school in Dera Bugti. How come Zardari does not
>>>	spend money in Lyari on education or in Sindh's rural areas.
>>>	No do not expect Mr. 10% to do any such thing. All this money is
>>>	shipped out of Pakistan. 
>>
>>Now now.... what's the point in that rhetoric...
>	Too bad, you still dont see the point.  
>	You dont see any point in opening schools and colleges in
>	Pasni, Gwadar, Navabshah, and Lyari ?!?!?!?
>	

I've explained my standpoint above. There should be more schools opened
at these places. Even if there aren't people willing to open private
schools, government should step in. Unfortunately that's not happening.
Most of the money is spent on places like Karachi and Lahore. In Panjab
at least the ethnicity of people in the capital and elsewhere is roughly
the same. In Sindh's case it is not. Because of the high numbers of immigrant
bureaucrats in Sindh, a conscious effort has been made to keep all schools
where Sindhis go at a lower level.

Let me give an example. Since the standard of living
of Karachi is better, it is the most desirable place to be. New profs are
sent to say LMC. As they become a little senior, they're moved to SMC.
Next is DMC. This thing is happening all the time. As a result, DMC is
kept at the highest level, followed by SMC followed by LMC etc. I am not
trying to imply that somehow Karachi is being made to appear more desirable.
What I object to is the fact that a conscious effort is not being made to
counter this inherently biased phenomenon.

Given that people without Karachi domicile are not allowed in DMC, and 
knowing that Karachi's population is far from truly representative of
the province's population (the percentage of native Sindhis in Karachi is
small), natives are not able to go to the better schools. It's not only
DMC. Even in NED, someone with say Larkana's domicile has to be a position
holder to enter the waiting list for admission in Computer Systems Engg.

In the same way, even in the private schools, Karachi's population has
a better chance because they get a better exposure to English language, which
in turn increases their chances of scoring better in the "aptitude" tests. I
am of the opinion that students coming from rural areas outperform city-boys
in math skills. They never get a chance to work on their English, because their
minds are preoccupied with learning the "national" language i.e. Urdu.

Even inside these schools (at least I can talk about ICS), people from less
urban background are discouraged. I remember ex director of ICS Dr. Javed
Ashraf. In his welcome address to our batch he explained how urban life
style makes people intellectually superior :) Later in one of the classes
he told a guy from Multan, "You haven't come here from a village, have you".
From my personal observation I feel that the admission process is fairly
biased on ethnic lines. Some people also argue that Ahmedis are favored. I
don't know much about that. In every batch there is only one or two Sindhi
students who end up being accepted as the best students in the batch... well,
in most cases.

In SMC, a couple of years back, an Urdu-speaking prof failed all Sindhi speaking
students (and passed all Urdu-speaking ones) and left the country. Now he's
remembered as a hero :) During the same exam, MQM students came to my father's
office (certainly carrying guns) and asked that the MQM students who failed to
appear in the exam (certainly because of community service) be given good marks.
When he refused, they came again... and again... and again  :) :) finally they
came to kill him... and they didn't come again. just BTW, he's alive :) :)

Same applies even when it comes to admission to schools in US or elsewhere.
We all know what fraud is going on in Karachi. Such things are not very much
known in even Lahore for that matter. The fact that a fake ID (with one person's
photo and signature and another person's name) can be purchased from the govt.
office for Rs. 300, and that Karachiites are making the best use of this makes
it practically impossible for people with less community feeling to compete.
You can pay someone to take GRE for you... or you can ask a friend or a relative
to oblige. I'm fairly close with a few Urdu-speaking students from my ICS class.
Each has taken GREs, SATs, GMATs numerous number of times for friends and
relatives. It's become so bad that a friend was telling me that when he refused
to do this for a cousin, he said, "How can you be so selfish?" :) I remember
this guy who was working with me in IBM Karachi. He was an NED CS graduate. 
Although his estimate sounds a little bit exaggerated, he said that at least
90% of the people taking GRE each time are doing it for someone else. I have
myself seen so many fake IDs that my friends have shown me.... made just for
the purpose of this fraud... which has taken the staus of community service :)

Let's talk about how exams are held in the city of light Karachi. This is
regarding the School Board and University exams. Question papers normally
reach examination centers half an hour before the exam is supposed to start.
These papers are handed over to APMSO (MQM student wing.. for those who don't
know) guys without delay (in the community spirit). These papers are taken
to professors who have agreed to serve as the solvers (again in the community
spirit). I think there is one prof for each question. The solutions are 
collected from these profs without delay (while the examinees await their
saviours' return). These solved questions are taken to xerox copy machines 
which have been booked in advance for the purpose. For each "Muhajir" student
a copy is made. These xerox copies of solved questions is rushed to the exam
centers where the poor next generation of the great nation is waiting. In the
remaining 1 1/2 or 2 hours, the solutions are copied. This is all done in
a community spirit. Believe it or not, this is what really made me appreciate
the power of distributed systems :) :)

In any case, my brother was taking his B.Com. APMSO students said that they'll
kill any Sindhi students coming to the exam center. He and his friends went to
the university and arrangements were made for them to go and take the exam some
desolate primary school in Liyari. These guys thought they'll also do something
similar to what "Muhajirs" are doing. Too bad, they couldn't find any solvers.
Later, rumors started that students sent to these special centers are being
failed by examiners because they know that it's all Sindhis. Arrangements were
made to remove the center names from the exam papers :) I can't continue guys...
it's so funny :) :)

The question is "How does this help the community?" Answer is fairly simple.
Irrespective of how good grades or degrees are obtained, these people do have
better qualifications for admissions for higher education or even for jobs.
Then they talk about pure merit :) As more and more of these people get jobs
and "better" education, the community becomes more and more strong (financially)
This results in a greater ability to do similar frauds. What do they call it...
snowball effect?? I don't know. The next generation of children that grow in
a financially more secure/previleged community can easily be expected to perform
better than others... specially in language skills. There is no end to it. It
has to be stopped. These unethical practices most certainly give these people
an unfair advantage over not only other people of Sindh, but other people of
Pakistan and in fact world in general. Specially the GRE fraud effects mainly
the genuine applicants from other countries.

Opening schools is important. Even more important is throwing out these fascists
from bureaucratic offices. They made hay on the missing middle class after 
Hindus had been forced to leave Sindh. Expecting them to do any good for the
whole country is as ridiculous as is expecting the corrupt people you mention
to spend money on education. 

What would be acceptable as a solution (to me) ? Let one generation of natives
be born and let them grow in the same financially secure urban atmosphere as 
Karachiites are used to. After that, let's have open merit or whatever. Believe
me, you guys don't stand a chance... corrupt minds cannot create!!

>
>>>>	Some people, esp. Saad Shafqat has suggested that main idea
>>>>	in Pakistan should be to make money. But unfortunatley money
>>>	is being made by people like Navaz and Zardari. These guys will
>>>	not invest a penny in education or anything. These people even
>>>	rob country of its tax money. Do we expect these theives and
>>>	rishvat khores to spend money in education in Pakistan. No way.
>
>>Same again... what's your point? If these people are corrupt, what's
>>the point in blaming them for not spending money on education. You sure
>>do have a short concentration span :)
>	
>	The reason is that people like you dont really believe that 
>	navaz and zardari and etc are corrupt, crooks, and thieves.
>	Once you and others see the problem, we may be able to
>	find a solution.

That's incorrect.

>
>>>		Private professional schools, colleges, Universities
>>>	should be opened in Pakistan. Baqai Medical College in Karachi
>>>	is a good example. People should come forward and open schools
>>>	in Pakistan for profit. 
>
>>Your posting is full of non sequiturs. Why don't you just make one standard
>>posting saying:
>
>>I don't like Benazir Bhutto (bitch)
>>I don't like Asif Zardari (Mr. 10%)
>>I don't like Nawaz Sharif
>>I hate Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto
>>I don't like Gauhar Ayub
>>I don't like ....
>
>>....
>
>	I know! I should make a standard file which should be appended
>to all my postings.  The stories of these bastards should be repeated
>thousand times on the net so that every one of us knows how these 
>people have screwed Pakistan in past and how do they plan to take  more 
>money from Pakistan in future. Gauhar Ayub's case should be discussed.
>Why should this idiot be the next President of Pakistan.

Aren't you taking the net too seriously??

> 
>....
>I like Nadeem Jamali :)
>	I have no reason to hate you!

I want to believe you :) and BTW, one doesn't always need a reason to hate
someone :) and one doesn't even need to hate someone to say that he does :)
and one... forget it...

>
>>and then you can post the same thing 10 times a day. It'll be so easy for me
>>to reply. I'll make a standard reply saying:
>
>>Who cares!! :)
>	If you are serious about yourself, your future, and the people of 
>Pakistan, then you should care. STOP GAUHAR AYUB FROM BECOMING PAKISTAN'S
>				NEXT PRESIDENT.
>

I care about Pakistan.. what I don't care about is your personal likes or
dislikes. Let's make Zafarullah Jamali the next president :) We have never
had anyone from Balochistan in the center :) :)

Man!! just relax... discussing something on scp is not going to change things.
With the kind of material appearing on scp these days (including some of your
jokes ;-) ), taking its readership seriously is the last thing I would do.

>
>Mansoor Khan
>Cleveland.
>

Nadeem

-- 
Nadeem Jamali                                     jamalin@newton.ccs.tuns.ca
						 
School of Computer Science			  
Technical University of Nova Scotia		  (902)420-7527  
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan