HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mcgrew@dropout.rutgers.edu (Charles Mcgrew)
Newsgroups: rec.games.empire
Subject: Re: Rating systems.
Date: 15 Sep 92 00:31:16 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.


	fsjfz@acad3.alaska.edu (James Zuelow) writes:
	You get more points for beating someone above you in ability
	level, less for eating up fodder. i.e. i beat up, say,
	Langerhans in a war.  i get bunches and bunches of points,
	because i've beaten a superior opponent.

... hmmm... well, I'm not so sure that scheme will actually work well,
since who gets points if three players gang up on a fourth, regardless
of rankings?  What if I beat on someone for 3 days, and then someone
else comes along and administers the coup de grace in 20 minutes?
(Your examples are also quite valid.)  The reason I put forward the
first/second/etc placings as criteria is that it evades (hey, I'm
honest! :-) all that.  In the short term, your way would probably be
better (though very difficult to administer), but in the long run,
both would give a rough ranking of a player's ability.

	1) setting up rules for points, agreed on by everyone that
	wanted to be ranked.

... quite.  The implication that people who don't want to be ranked
aren't is a very good point (perhaps a valid ranking would be
'unranked', as in "I don't need no steenking points").  Those who
wish to not be ranked would not be penalized.


	2) the extra work required of dieties, who would have to keep
	track of actions in a ranked game (or post regular diety maps
	and news and logs to someone who did)

... that's exactly what any long-term useful ranking system must
avoid.  If things get to be a hassle, nobody (most especially those
overworked and underappreciated deities out those) is going to want to
participate.  My suggestion was directed so that a minimum amount of
work for everyone would be required.

    The "ranking board" would be required only to sanction a
game as a "ranking points game".   That's all they would do.

    The deities would only have to submit a list of players to the
ranking board (or maybe just a number of players -- what criteria
sanctioning would require would be a matter of discussion, with the
"ranking board" making decisions.  At the end point of the game
(determined, just like always, by the deity, or the players, with the
deity concurring), the power chart is shipped off to "records hall",
and points awarded.
	
    The players just play, bless 'em.


	3) archiving everyone's current ranking, and updating the
	archives.  You would need someone completely `neutral'- (a non
	player?).

... I'm willing to play this role, though I am not willing to give up
playing Empire to do it.  I may flatter myself that I don't have too
much of an ego (in Empire, anyay :-), certainly I would welcome
someone else doing it, rather than myself.  I can also provide an ftp
area for retreiving the rankings and game-results.


	probably never happen.

...probably you're right, but I'd like to see it get a shot...

Charles
From: elf@titan.ucc.umass.edu (Wanderer)
Newsgroups: rec.games.empire
Subject: Re: Redline, Vulgaria, Ultima
Date: 14 Sep 92 23:58:47 GMT
Organization: the Elves of Briton

fly@acsu.buffalo.edu (Paul D. Fly) writes:
>If people spent half the energy they spend foaming at the mouth at improving
>the game we'd be to Empire 7.0 by now.  Shut up!

Only mr-frog can release new versions of empire with the name "empire x.x"

in fact, counting KSU/Merc/Carnage/BBN/Chainsaw we are actually quite
high on the new versions of code.

not to mention Pat Loney's mods or the stuff from Tamu.
From: greyhelm@cis.ksu.edu (Karl S. Hagen)
Newsgroups: rec.games.empire
Subject: Question for Empire community
Date: 15 Sep 1992 22:04:24 GMT
Organization: Kansas State University, Dept. of Computing and Information Sciences
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: cygnus.cis.ksu.edu

Howdy folks,

    I have just gotten thru posting the new listing of the arvchives
   here at ftp.cis.ksu.edu.

   Now in an effort to clean up ... I would like to see what feelings
   would be like to remove the empire 1.04-KSU source code

   Also I would like to remove Merc 1.0 since Merc2 is now there.

   But I figure I should get some opinions on it first.

   Just a Note:  empire 1.04-KSU  is supported in all the other codes
                 except the original Empire 1.1

   Also I will be moving these files to backup... so they won't be
   lost permanantly.

			email greyhelm@cis.ksu.edu

*******************************************************************************
****     Karl S. Hagen          Student - Kansas State University          ****
****     greyhelm@cygnus.cis.ksu.edu      greyhelm@matt.ksu.ksu.edu        ****
****     Moria Archives Manager           Empire Archive Manager           ****
*******************************************************************************


Newsgroups: rec.games.empire
From: smithw@col.hp.com (Walter Smith)
Subject: Re: markets
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 16:04:17 GMT
Organization: Colorado Springs IT Center

youngs@ccu.umanitoba.ca (Scott D. Young) writes:
> 
>    The whole market scheme is very unrealistic, not to mention unfair when
>    used in the bank-sacking attacks mentioned before.  For people who want
>    trade, let them use cargo ships or planes or border sector swapping or
>    something.  Without the market, ships become more important if you want to
>    trade with anyone (assuming a non-perfect world), and allied airfields 
>    would make trade faster.

Agreed.  The HP-empire code has "trade centers" that eliminate all this
market foolishness.  It acts much more like the "real world".  None of this
"time delay", teleporting goods, etc.

Walter Smith
smithw@cs.itc.hp.com

Newsgroups: rec.games.empire
From: fly@acsu.buffalo.edu (Paul D. Fly)
Newsgroups: rec.games.empire
Subject: Re: Land Units
Date: 7 Sep 92 16:20:00 GMT
Organization: UB

Re: complexity of Empire.  One of the reasons I don't play more than I do and
sometimes dread the fact that I've joined a game.  However, I like the kinds of
thigns that are being proposed, units, etc, and many planes types, etc.  I
like that stuff.  I'd like to see production simplified, or at least made
easier.  Distribute does a lot toward that end,  but there is still a lot of
micro-management that I'd like to see done away with.

Thoughts?  Do people *like* the micro-management aspects of Empire?

-- 
Paul Fly                      | "Thinking is more interesting than knowing,
fly@acsu.buffalo.edu          |  but less interesting than looking."
v092pxca@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu |    --Goethe
Newsgroups: rec.games.empire
From: hjpoell@paramount.nikhefk.nikhef.nl (Henk Poell)
Subject: Re: Euro^3 and NON-US Empire Greats?
Organization: NIKHEFK
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 01:19:25 GMT

T. Andy Frakes writes:

)Henk Poell writes:
)|> Okay, some replies to your 'short comments'   (IF YOU HATE THIS TALK SKIP
)|> NOW, OR DON'T FOLLOW THE WHOLE STUPID DISCUSSION ANYWAY)

)What annoys me is that some of the newer players who don't know any better
)may actually believe this drivel.

It is always annoying if, in your perception, people don't listen to you but
to someone else instead. But I really believe that there might be a chance
for you to change this. Just learn to have some respect for others... Your
talk will become much more realistic, Andy!

I just read some Frakes articles.... This guy never played against me and
acts as if I am his worst enemy. Rediculous. Like a 10-year old who is given
the order to flame against any article coming from Europe. So... into the
kill file. Bye!  :-)

The Vulgar One.

Newsgroups: rec.games.empire
From: tafrakes@athena.mit.edu (T. Andy Frakes)
Subject: Re: Euro^3 and NON-US Empire Greats?
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 14:04:41 GMT

In article <1992Sep11.155243.2537@schaefer.math.wisc.edu>, duelge@schaefer.math.wisc.edu (Jason Duelge) writes:
|> ARGH!!!  I'm going insane.
|> I don't believe i've ever had the displeasure of playing in a game
|> with YOU, Ultima ... perhaps our egos wouldn't fit in one world?  :)
|> Anyway, you are so *completely* clueless.   Graahoeje is one of the
|> absolute best empire players.  Finland is a very strong player.  Vulgaria,
|> who you are arguing with, is probably more than a match for you.
|> Give it a rest.  Most of us (who know the people you are flaming) are
|> just laughing at your stupidity.
|> 
|> Please, please, give it a rest, or confine it to email.
|> 
|> Jason -- Temekula
|> 

Weren't you in the Euro III game?  If you hadn't been on the other
side of the world, you would have seen me up close and in person (just
ask any of our neighbors).  Excuse me for not grovelling when I speak of
your beloved Graa*.  Perhaps I should bow down to his genius for being
able to calculate che numbers, huh?  I don't have time for any one-on-one
challenges, so everyone can stop bothering to ask.  I plan on playing in
one more 'real good game' before I officially give empire the finger and
I'll announce it to the net.  Anyone who wants a shot at me can find me
there.  If you get munched on your way to the bottom of my shoe, then you
will have missed your last chance (unless I change my mind and decide to
keep playing, but I seriously doubt it) and I take no responsibility for
your ineptitude.

Since you seem to like this so much, I tried to cram as much ego, sarcasm,
and arrogance into this post as possible.  Hope you like it, Jason.

-----
T. Andy Frakes (tafrakes@athena.mit.edu)
(a.k.a. Ultima)
-----
From: laitinen@cae.wisc.edu (Tero Mikko Laitinen)
Newsgroups: rec.games.empire
Subject: Re: Cracker-Jack Empire, and other assorted topics...
Date: 15 Sep 92 20:22:10 GMT
Organization: College of Engineering, Univ. of Wisconsin--Madison

Ultima replys to Claus:
>
>Your problem is that you're taking things far too personally.  If you keep
>letting people get to you like this, more and more people will start
>taunting you just to get a cheap thrill because they know they will get
>you to jump up and react.  All Ken did was ask a question to r.g.e about
>who the good non-US players were and you immediately read this as: "ALL
>NON-US PLAYERS SUCK."  You did this with a couple other comments, too.  If
>you're too self-conscious about your empire ego, maybe empire isn't the game
>for you -- empire is much more enjoyable if you can learn how to take
>criticism and not go nuts every time someone questions your ability.
>

Buzz, Wrong-O.  Claus wasn't the only one who so-called misunderstood
Redline's comment.  Quite many people did so, both european and american.
Actually, if I remember correctly, even you agreed vigorously with Redline's
comment that "there is no good Non-US-players" in your first posting.
Now you are saying he didn't say anything like that, that we just 
misunderstood him and that we take things too personally?

All Ken did was throw a half-assed comment he probably didn't even bother
to think over to r.g.e.  Then you showed how blindly you agree with every-
thing Ken says, again without thinking, and made a complete fool out of 
yourself flaming everything.  If you now want to undo this, try something 
else that throwing more idiotic crap into public net about "how too
self-concious" we are.

>-----
>T. Andy Frakes (tafrakes@athena.mit.edu)
>-----

	mikko
	Sioux

-- 
What is the use of being genius if you 	: Mikko Laitinen
cannot use it as an excuse for being 	:
unemployed?				: laitinen@cae.wisc.edu
Newsgroups: rec.games.empire
From: tafrakes@athena.mit.edu (T. Andy Frakes)
Subject: Re: Euro^3 and NON-US Empire Greats?
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 19:26:29 GMT

In article <1992Sep10.115719.6035@paramount.nikhefk.nikhef.nl>, hjpoell@paramount.nikhefk.nikhef.nl (Henk Poell) writes:

This post was so full of bull that I didn't even know wher to begin.  I'll
just make a few short comments...

|> Graahoeje...
|> 	This guy can kill nations faster than any other. About the only
|> 	person who calculates che numbers to... Ah, what the hack, having

I seriously doubt he kills nations faster than any other.  He's another
person with too much time on his hands -- calculating che numbers!!!  How
could he kill nations 'faster than any other' if he's spending time
calculating stupid che numbers?!?!?!

|> Finland...
|> 	Okay, he knows how to make tech. Only Lersing and Guzzer sometimes
|> 	can (can?) do the same... But he just does NOT talk English good

Just about everyone knows how to make tech and all of the good players
know how to make it quite well.  There's a limit to how much should be
produced, though, and that's where these countries sometimes screw up.
Having the most tech doesn't mean squat if you're dead.  The first rule
of empire (and many many other games) is to stay alive.  You can't win
if you're dead!  Just about all good countries know how to make the
maximum tech possible (which I assume is what you are talking about when
you refer to someone 'knowing how to make tech'), but the important skill
is knowing how much to make before you put your country into too much
danger of being overrun by a country with more money that didn't spend
quite as much money on tech, but has a much larger military force to
show for it.

|> 
|> The Vulgar One.


-----
T. Andy Frakes (tafrakes@athena.mit.edu)
(a.k.a. Ultima)
-----
From: ccoprmd@prism.gatech.EDU (Matthew DeLuca)
Newsgroups: rec.games.empire
Subject: Re: Rating systems.  AAAGGGHHHH!!!
Date: 14 Sep 92 21:09:47 GMT
Organization: The Dorsai Grey Captains

In article <192tmhINNagm@agate.berkeley.edu> mytelka@codon9 (Daniel Mytelka;612 Barker;x2-5110) writes:
>In article <1992Sep14.161727.12934@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> kpearce@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (BULLDAWG) writes:

>>Ratings suck.

>>1)  Ratings are only valid if all factors are identical:  same world, same
>>islands, same everything _every_ time and this ain't gonna happen.  Otherwise,
>>you are comparing "apples and oranges."

>This is completely untrue. A good rating system can easily be used when there
>are many variants of a game, to see who is flexible enough to win under
>different conditions.

Again, hear, hear!

Any *really* deserving empire player doesn't have to concern himself with the
nitty-gritty details of the game, such as kpearce mentions.  If you are 
*really* worthy of the Top 10 List in the Sky, these things are trivial matters.
While I generally oppose a rating system, I don't believe it is impossible due
to the different types of games out there.

-- 
Matthew DeLuca                      "I'd hire the Dorsai, if I knew their 
Georgia Institute of Technology      P.O. box."
Office of Information Technology                - Zebediah Carter, 
Internet: ccoprmd@prism.gatech.edu              _The Number of the Beast_
From: ccoprmd@prism.gatech.EDU (Matthew DeLuca)
Newsgroups: rec.games.empire
Subject: Re: Euro^3 and NON-US Empire Greats?
Date: 11 Sep 92 01:27:07 GMT
Organization: The Dorsai Grey Captains

In article <1992Sep10.192629.24983@athena.mit.edu> tafrakes@athena.mit.edu (T. Andy Frakes) writes:

>Just about everyone knows how to make tech and all of the good players
>know how to make it quite well.  There's a limit to how much should be
>produced, though, and that's where these countries sometimes screw up.
>Having the most tech doesn't mean squat if you're dead.  

Hear, hear!

The balance as I see it is between having enough tech to be competitive in 
the air and sea (this latter thanks to the new code mods) areanas and having
enough money to *wield* that competitiveness.

A good case in point was the recent BBN game I was in.  While I was not
at any time a tech leader or even in competition for the lead, I maintained
a high enough level that I couldn't be completely destroyed by more advanced
weaponry, and I always had enough money to field pretty much as much equipment
as I wanted.  Had it come down to a head-to-head brawl at almost any point
in the game, I could have broken my opponent's economy in a matter of days.

One of these days, I'll even get up the interest to demonstrate the theory.
Although I consider the recent BBN game to be one of the best in the last 
year or so, its fatal flaw that it was too slow; 32 etu/day in one update 
just takes too damn long.  Had it run 2 updates per day, I think we would have
seen a much more impressive ending.

-- 
Matthew DeLuca                      "I'd hire the Dorsai, if I knew their 
Georgia Institute of Technology      P.O. box."
Office of Information Technology                - Zebediah Carter, 
Internet: ccoprmd@prism.gatech.edu              _The Number of the Beast_
Newsgroups: rec.games.empire
From: elf@titan.ucc.umass.edu (Wanderer)
Subject: Re: Euro^3 and NON-US Empire Greats?
Organization: the Elves of Briton
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 00:01:28 GMT

mytelka@codon9 (Daniel Mytelka;612 Barker;x2-5110) writes:
>ctjmrr@daimi.aau.dk (Claus Torp Jensen) writes:
>>
>>I hereby officially challenge REdline to prove his claim (this is the part
>>that my wife and child won't like......:( ):
>
>I'm no Redline, but if you're willing to take on a next echelon US player to
>prove your competence and can find a machine to play on, I'm willing to accept
>your challenge. I'm better than at least 90% of the US players anyway.

Ok, I'm willing to run this game.

BBN code, NO NEW TEST CODE. NO NEW TEST CODE.
any objections to allowing an australia contingent i nas well?

I'll make three countries.

Europe
United States
Australia

game play will be one rotating update per week.

rotating defined:

the game will start on a friday probably at midnight.
first update will be 20 hours after game start.
every update thereafter will be 6 days and 16 hours afterwards.

sat 10pm
fri 2pm
thu 6am

etc.

exact setup can be discussed over the next few weeks via e-mail.

Su'iot! let the games begin, mischief is afoot!

-michael
From: fsmar@acad3.alaska.edu
Newsgroups: rec.games.empire
Subject: Re: EURO III
Date: 12 Sep 92 04:13:02 GMT
Organization: University of Alaska Fairbanks

As regards EURO III:
(I'm sending this from a friend's account, so don't get on his case)

This was my first big Empire game, having only played in a few local blitzes.
It was a lot of fun, and I learned a bunch.
It was exciting to get into the top 16 or so out of 68(?).

I wish I had had more time to put in, but 2 full-time jobs, 
a thriving business and life got in the way.
(Not to mention 3am updates.)

I didn't realize before taking it on that It would take so much time,
but oh well, I'm addicted.

I wish to thank everyone for a good game (especially the other Fodder).

Could anyone please post some stuff on how to use guns & shells effectively?

- Czechoslovakia
From: madpit@athena.mit.edu (Douglas R. Pitters)
Newsgroups: rec.games.empire
Subject: Re: top 10 list, well rather top 3 list...(Was: Re: :tcejbuSeltiT)
Date: 12 Sep 92 18:37:44 GMT
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology

In article <18s7hjINN44l@matt.ksu.ksu.edu>, heinlein@matt.ksu.ksu.edu (The tired one) writes:
|> HEY!  I think I remember this game... either this one, or one really
|> close in time frame, where Ultima got blown down to 5 or so sectors,
|> but wound up supplying someone or another with zillions of nukes... ;)

	Got it backwards Mike. Ultima blew Zenith down to 5 or so sectors,
but then left for Christmas, and Zenith came back to supply the world with
nukes...

|> Mike
|> -- 
|> Gee, I finally made a .sig file. Isn't it grand?
|> Chris Green is way cool. :)   My idols are camels.  OH! You wanted sarcasm,
|> well, just go read my .plan then. :)  - Mike Monthey heinlein@matt


		The Saint

Hey Danny, my favorite guy was Macross..... remember him?

3 row of forts, and he still went down flaming.


And whatever happened to Fornax....
Newsgroups: rec.games.empire
From: pkenny@ADS.COM (Patrick Kenny)
Subject: Re: markets shcmarkets...
Organization: Advanced Decision Systems, Mtn. View, CA (415) 960-7300
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 20:08:09 GMT

How about this:

	There is a new land unit called 'Market' ($) where this is the
	only place you can put goods onto the market. The amount of goods
	depends on the efficency of the sector. The more efficent the more
	goods you can trade. You can designate any sector to be a market
	sector, even ones that you conquor.

	For example:

	If you take someones land, then you can create a market sector,
	put stuff in the sector and sell it, based on it's efficency.
	This would prevent you from selling all their items before they can
	take the sector back.

	Of course this means that this would be the only way to get goods
	to the market, and at home you would have to move them to a 'Market'
	sector to sell them.
	It's kind of like a warehouse, but it delivers to the market and not
	to other sectors.

	How does this Idea sound?

	-pk
--
! -Patrick Kenny (pkenny@ads.com)    (Advanced Decision Systems)      !
! There is nothing more incredible then reading with your eyes closed !
From: ccoprmd@prism.gatech.EDU (Matthew DeLuca)
Newsgroups: rec.games.empire
Subject: Re: Redline, Vulgaria, Ultima
Date: 14 Sep 92 20:27:58 GMT
Organization: The Dorsai Grey Captains

In article <BuL2wy.K1v@acsu.buffalo.edu> fly@acsu.buffalo.edu (Paul D. Fly) writes:
>Everyone who couldn't care less about the "Hall of Fame" and all the old
>cronies trying to out-ego each other, say YEA.  People who think its
>important for Subbie to take notice of them and add their name to a
>ugly display of fraternity, say NAY.

Get a life.

Chest-beating (not that I do any, of course) is as much a part of empire
as is 'para A 0 -16,0 ggggyggh' is.  If it bugs you, Strategic Conquest
3.x just came out for the Mac.  

An old crony who doesn't *need* to flaunt his ego...
-- 
Matthew DeLuca                      "I'd hire the Dorsai, if I knew their 
Georgia Institute of Technology      P.O. box."
Office of Information Technology                - Zebediah Carter, 
Internet: ccoprmd@prism.gatech.edu              _The Number of the Beast_
Newsgroups: rec.games.empire
From: reynard@susie.cs.scarolina.edu (John Reynard)
Subject: Top 10 lists and other such absurdities.
Organization: USC  Department of Computer Science
Date: 16 Sep 92 19:43:15 GMT


    I've only once played in a non local game of empire, however I 
feel that the idea of formulating a Top 10 list is absurd.  
The reason being that each person having played in various games
will have different impressions of various players.  
    Even though I've never played in a game open to players on 
this group I can say clearly, Of players with any amount of skill
He or She with the most time will prevail.

    There are players who's level of skill exceeds others but
victory has little to do with skill in empire.  I played in my 
first game of empire and was clueless for a while but had good
common sense and lots of time.  I didn't win but I was the first 
person to make a nuke, etc. and was basically the second coolest
nation in the game.  

    Now I don't have enough time to play empire.  i.e. I need 6 hrs a
day of sleep now.  So if I did I'd get into a game just with the intentions 
of taking out some name players, which if they didn't have the time would 
be easy.

    These are just my opinions but I know y'all will flame away so
have at it.

John