HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mdphd-l
Date:         Mon, 14 Dec 1992 20:45:33 EST
From:         THOMAS BARTMAN <bartmant@HAL.HAHNEMANN.EDU>
Subject:      RE: research

In reply to the letter by P Mazzoni at MIT:

I am a fourth year MD-PhD student at Temple (and incidentally, was an
undergrad at MIT), and unfortunately I've heard some of his comments
before and found them upsetting then too.

Specifically, when I was applying to MD-PhD programs, one of the rudest
people I was grilled by was an MD-PhD who was doing primarily research.
When I indicated that I felt it was possible to do both practice and
research (or even the "triple threat" of practice, research, and teaching),
he indicated that it was impossible to attempt anything like that and do
any component of it well.  Then when I asked him what would be the reason
for getting both degrees then (why not just get the degree for what you want
to do?), he said there was no reason and it would just be a waste of time and
you would spend your life unhappy because you couldn't do it all.  Some real
pitch for MD-PhD programs!

However, I feel that I am lucky to be around a number of people who strongly
disagree with this interviewer (even "real" PhD researchers) who feel that it
is possible to spend a few hours a week or even one week a month out of the
lab to practice and not have the lab fall to pieces.  From what I've seen,
it is obvious that research will take a majority of your time, but that
practice can be done for fewer hours and still be fruitful, especially if
it is a field without continuity of care (in otherwords, inpatient stuff where
you can treat whoever is in the beds that week and not have to worry about
those particular patients six months later when you are in the lab).  I know
researchers who practice pathology (most common), as well as infectious
disease, pediatrics, surgery, etc.

One thing I might agree with in his statements is that there may be a
difference in the quality of research performed by those with and without
extensive research training.  I would think that a regular MD who did one year
of research during a residency is not going to put out the same kind of work
as someone who spent four years getting a PhD and another 2 or more during
residency/post-doc.  Yet, theoretically, you are being trained to do
research as well as any PhD, and you must be trained to practice medicine
as well as any MD.  So, given your drive, I'm sure you can figure out how
to do both to your satisfaction.

Tom Bartman
Molecular Biology/Viral Pathology
From: bailey@girtab.usc.edu (Benjamin Bailey)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mdphd-l
Subject: Potential MD/PHD looking for info and advice
Date: 17 Dec 1992 16:48:16 -0800
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: girtab.usc.edu



Hello out there,

	I am a recent graduate who is applying to various MD/PHD programs 
accross the country. I am looking for correspondence concerning issues 
that are important to current MD/PHDs that you think should be important 
to someone choosing between different schools. I am applying to neuroscience 
programs and if you have anything particular to be said about this field, 
please do so. I want to be as informed an interviewee as possible. Also,
any e-mail correspondence is welcome.

							bailey@usc.edu


Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mdphd-l
Date:         Sat, 12 Dec 1992 10:16:00 EST
From:         Josh Goldstein <JOSH@NEURON.UCHC.EDU>
Subject:      RE: Misinformation or reality?

        I worked for a summer at Children's Hospital in Boston, in an
immunology lab. Of the researchers there, I think all the MDs and MD-PhDs
worked in the Allergy clinic two afternoons a week. It was expected, I
think, that they do this in addition to their research (and they did some
heavy research). This was where I got my vision of what MD-PhDs do, and the
MD-PhDs there seemed to think that what they did was quite common.

        They did not have a "practice" per se; it was that the allergy
clinic was open those two afternoons, and that's when all the immunology
researchers came and saw patients. I'm sure other University hospitals do
the same kind of thing.

        I've also heard rumors (I forget where) that some residencies
EXPECT you to do research, even if you're not MD-PhD or anything. But I've
searched and haven't found that anywhere, so it could have been wishful
thinking on my part.
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mdphd-l
Date:         Wed, 16 Dec 1992 23:20:50 -0600
From:         snyder mark <msnyder@UXA.CSO.UIUC.EDU>
Subject:      :)

I am a 1/God knows how many, starting in graduate school.  I am in couseling
 psychology.  I am wondering if any of you are doing the same thing, since there
 seem to be so few of us.  If so, I am just wondering what it's like to be
 farther along, etc., an
and what kinds of careers I may build out of this.   Any ideas, input, comments,
 or other types of contact would be very helpful (besides, when you are only on
 in your department to have ever done the dual-degree thing, it gets a little
 weird!
:)
Have a good holiday!

Mark P. Snyder
University of Illinois Department of Education/ College of Medicine
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mdphd-l
From: eng10084@nusunix1.nus.sg (PUA CHING KEONG)
Subject: Re: What medical specialty are you considering?
Organization: National University of Singapore
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 08:04:27 GMT

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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mdphd-l
Date:         Fri, 11 Dec 1992 18:57:04 EST
From:         Sandeep.Kathju@UM.CC.UMICH.EDU
Subject:      Misinformation or reality?

I don't know how it is at other schools, but here at the
Univ. of Michigan it is not uncommon for M.D./Ph.D. profs
to spend one month out of the year as full-time attendings
on wards, with clinical duties being limited to one day/week
for the rest of the year. Naturally, they have thriving labs
that occupy most of their time. Most of these people have dual
appointments- one in a "basic science" dept. (such as Biochemistry)
and one in a medical department (such as Internal Medicine or Peds).
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Subject: (no subject given)
Organization: Medical College of Wisconsin (Milwaukee, WI)
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mdphd-l
Date:         Mon, 14 Dec 1992 13:56:13 -0600
From:         DPOTTER@MIS.MCW.EDU

December 14, 1992

        I am a 1/7 at the Medical College of Wisconsin, and to tell you the
truth, I have no idea what I want to be when I grow up. I thought about a
Ph.D. in biophysics followed by a residency in radiology. I have also
thought about a Ph.D. in biochemistry or immunology or pharmacology
followed by a residency in medicine or oncology (if such a residency exists
).

        How does one find out about residencies, requirements for admission,
pay, requirements for completion, research opportunities, etc? I'd like to
hear from ne of you seniors or graduates out there.
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mdphd-l
Date:         Fri, 18 Dec 1992 15:36:42 CST
Reply-To:     msnyder@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu
From:         "Mark P. Snyder" <msnyder@UXA.CSO.UIUC.EDU>
Subject:      RE: more psychology MD/PhD's here

Thanks for the insight-  any kind of ideas are helpful.

It sounds like you know quite a few MD-PhD's; since I haven't actually begun
medical school, and being the only MD-PhD my departmental division has ever
had, I kinda feel like I'm "out there" somwhere, you know, on my
own in this.  That's exciting, but a bit intimidating too.  I wonder if
anybody else has or has had a similar experience?

Mark P. Snyder
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mdphd-l
Date:         Thu, 17 Dec 1992 14:25:04 -0600
From:         snyder mark <msnyder@UXA.CSO.UIUC.EDU>
Subject:      my response to your response

Sounds like a very interesting field you are in!  My degree will be in
 eductaion, which apparently is very nontraditional; anything that's
 "subversive" is good in my book!  I really don't know what medical field I
 would end up in.... right
now I kinda lean against psychiatry, but then again I have no experience with
 the medical profession whatsoever.  I've pretty much decided not to decide, for
 now (have to worry about a master's thesis first!)

THanks for your response!

Mark Snyder
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mdphd-l
Date:         Tue, 15 Dec 1992 01:33:31 -0600
From:         DPOTTER@MIS.MCW.EDU
Subject:      Re: research

Dear Mr. Mazzoni,

Dear Mr. Mazzoni,

us, the M.D.-Ph.D. students (and graduates) apart from the mainstream is our
courage. We have the courage to do what we choose to do even if it is not
considered to be "traditional" or "conventional". The true success stories
result from the efforts of people who are willing to go out on a limb.
        Anyway, to make a long story short, I would like to express my support
to Scott and encourage him and others to pursue the goals that they have set
for themselves. I would also like to express my opinion (opinions are not
irrational or illogical and do not need proof) which is that precedent is not
necessary in achieving one's goals.

Sincerely,

David Potter 1/7 undecided, Medical College of Wisconsin
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mdphd-l
Date:         Sat, 19 Dec 1992 14:05:17 CST
From:         Brad Katz <katz@UIEEA.ECE.UIUC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Potential MD/PHD looking for info and advice

regarding benjamin bailey's neuroscience program inquiry:

i am a graduate of the md/phd program at u of illinois (urbana-champaign)
and the neuroscience program. the reason i chose this program is the
flexibility of the curriculum. i built my own curriculum based upon my
needs and interests.

the md/phd program here (medical scholars program - msp) is also quite
flexible, as is the medical school. i was able to cut in and out of
medicine as my research dictated.

if you'd like the official propaganda, send me an email.

no matter what you do, make sure you meet students at any institution
you are considering who are enrolled in both the neuroscience program
and the md/phd program. these are the people who will give you the
straight poop.

good luck

brad katz (b-katz2@uiuc.edu)
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mdphd-l
Date:         Sun, 13 Dec 1992 18:46:50 EST
From:         Sandeep.Kathju@UM.CC.UMICH.EDU
Subject:      What medical specialty are you considering?

This has probably been discussed before, but since I'm relatively new to
the list, I'll bring it up again.

Which medical specialties are people considering for their residencies,
assuming they are going to do residencies? Are there many future
surgeons out there? This always seemed somewhat impractical to me,
considering the lengthy training time involved in most surgical
residencies on top of the MD/PhD training period; perhaps ophthy
and ENT are exceptions, I don't know....

Also, what's the word on these so-called "fast track" residencies
that allow you to do 2 years in research after 2 years of clinical
work? I've only heard of them in Peds, and I'm beginning to wonder
if that's all there are.

Any thoughts about what factors will influence your choice of residency
and specialty would be welcome, since the time isn't *that* far away
when some of us will need to make a decision on this. Pax.
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mdphd-l
Date:         Thu, 17 Dec 1992 04:20:09 CST
From:         John Grant Moen <jgm1@MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU>
Subject:      Re: :)

IN RE: Mark Snyder's (1/?) Msg. of 16 Dec.

Mark,

You mentioned that you're in counseling psychology, Dept. of Education.  Will
your PhD be in Clinical Psych. or Education??  In any case, it sounds like a
very interesting potential career path to me.  I'm doing the history and
philosophy of the 'clinical neurosciences' (i.e. neurol, psychiatry,
neur-surg) at the U. of Chicago.  From my experience, I would guess that
academic psychiatrists might be very challenged/threatened by an MD/PhD
trained in counseling psychology.  This is not necessarily a bad thing!
You would be poised directly on top of the "fence" which has seen many an
unpleasant turf battle between psychiatry and psychology.  A mentor of mine,
Joel Howell (MD/PhD internist/historian @ U. Michigan), has suggested that
non-traditional dual-degree careers (like yours would be) are essentially
and usefully "subversive" (in the positive sense of the word).  And, I should
add, subversive in *both* directions.  In other words (to use your case as
an example), using ed. psych. to subvert the entrenched presuppositions of
a medical department, and using medicine to do likewise, in reverse order.

Feel free to message me directly:  j-moen@uchicago.edu

cheers!

--john
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mdphd-l
Date:         Mon, 14 Dec 1992 12:55:58 -0500
From:         pmazzoni@ATHENA.MIT.EDU
Subject:      research

I am a 5th year student with 2 years of med school, 2 months of
clinical work and 2 and a half years of graduate work behind me.
I would like to criticise portions of Scott's message regarding
misinformation on M.D.-Ph.D.'s careers.  I hope this criticism reads
as a constructive one, which is how I intend it, and not negative.

One problem I have is with one logical step you make, Scott.  You have
heard many people say that MDPhDs don't pratcise medicine and research
and one person who says he does, and you conclude that MDPhDs practise
medicine and research.  I think a couple of  steps are missing.  Based on
the opinions you mention I would conclude that few MDPhDs practise
medicine and research.  You do say later that your sample of opinions
is biased in favor of "nondualists." This does not make your conclusion
more likely, though; just more uncertain.

Another missing element that I think is important is the definitions
of practising medicine, research and both.  As you point out, Dr. Knight
is one of the rare doctors whose research is applauded by PhDs.  The
adjective "rare" rings a bell and should alert you as to the type of
research which the rest of doctors carry out.  Without attaching a
value judgement to it, it seems to me at least as distinct from basic
research as applied research is different from basic research in most
disciplines.  My own impression is that besides the rare
brilliant/efficient/lucky-in-their-choice-of-favorite-field MDPhDs
who carry out good basic research, practise good medicine and teach
well, most MDPhDs who do combine research and medicine practise
clinical research and specialize in a hospital that surrounds such
researchers with enough other clinicians to maintain a proper level of
patient care.

I do agree that as MDPhD students we have careers ahead of us that
will be our own and not a collage of failures at trying to do what
others do well as full-time jobs, and I am sorry to hear that you
spent so much time wondering before meeting a role model for the
career you would like.  My comments are really intended as
qualifications that I consider important, but I do think that we can
dream about successfully combining research and medicine.
There are many varied types of research and medicine out there,
however, and the combinations that we end up being able to
concoct will not only be up to our brilliancy but will also depend on
choices imposed by the type of research and medical specialty our
hearts draws us  to during our training.  Therefore my attitude is to
continue trying to be a good researcher and a good doctor, but to be
ready to give up being one of the two if the adjective "good" drops
out, e.g. if I decide to set up a lab whose proper direction requires
90% of my time.

Pietro Mazzoni
Neurobiology (5/7 or 5/8)
Newsgroups: bit.admin,bionet.general
From: saarikko@klaava.Helsinki.FI (Jarmo Saarikko)
Subject: Re: Gateway for PHOTOSYN under discussion
Organization: University of Helsinki
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 21:59:56 GMT

I agree about the bionet-grouping. It would be much easier
for a biologist to follow biological newsgroups if they 
lie close to each other.

About your discussion on not joining bionet-groups and
mailing lists because of administrational problems: 
I thought that the mailing list would persist, the only 
difference would be an address change and the fact that 
Intelligenetics would run the list physically in their computer. 

You can also run a mailing list only (with a 6 month test
period - you can still keep the original listserv list
undestroyed for that period and move back if there is 
no success with bionet.

Do you really think that the readers of PHOTOSYN would
not learn/start using a new mailing-address for the list
if it is properly advertised before a change? 

I am asking all this because I am also running a biological 
listserv list with some 200 subsribers and the traffic has just 
during the recent few weeks started to run more professional 
discussions. My list is also linked to a bit.listserv. newsgroup.

Jarmo Saarikko
# Jarmo.Saarikko@Helsinki.FI    # Voice: +358-0-1917387   (GMT+2h)            #
# SAARIKKO@FINUH.BITNET         # Fax:   +358-0-1917492                       #
# X.400: /C=fi/A=fumail/P=inet/O=Helsinki/S=Saarikko/G=Jarmo                  #
# Univ of Helsinki, Dept of Zoology,P. Rautatiekatu 13, SF-00100 HKI, Finland #
From: bs363@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (James Milles)
Newsgroups: bit.admin
Subject: Gateway for NETTRAIN under discussion
Date: 15 Dec 1992 21:21:36 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


I have proposed that the BITNET/Internet Trainers' Discussion 
List (NETTRAIN@UBVM) should be gated to netnews as 
bit.listserv.nettrain.  I am the listowner and moderator or
NETTRAIN, and the LISTSERV administrator ad UBVM is agreeable.
The membership has been polled, and there is no serious objection
to the gateway.

If there are any objections to this gateway, please inform me
directly within seven days.

Jim Milles
Listowner, NETTRAIN
Head of Computer Services
St. Louis University
Law Library
3700 Lindell Blvd.
St. Louis, MO  63108
millesjg@sluvca.slu.edu
Organization: The American University - University Computing Center
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 14:25:53 EST
From: Jim McIntosh <jim@american.edu>
Newsgroups: bit.admin
Subject: Moderated News Groups

The list owners of the mailing lists gated to the following newsgroups
have requested that the groups be made moderated. I sent out newgroup
control messages on Saturday to do just that. The groups are:

Newsgroup Name         List Owner         Moderator Address
---------------------  -----------------  ----------------------------
bit.listserv.mednews   David Dodell       david@stat.com
bit.listserv.christia  Steven Klepzig     sklepzi@ssb1.saff.utah.edu

---
Jim McIntosh (jim@american.edu)
The American University
Washington DC 20016-8019 USA
Xref: sparky bit.admin:249 bit.listserv.devel-l:25
From: fox@rudolf.nscl.msu.edu (Ron Fox)
Newsgroups: bit.admin,bit.listserv.devel-l
Subject: Re: Gateway for bit.listserv.devel-l Operational
Date: 17 Dec 92 13:13:19 GMT
Reply-To: fox@rudolf.nscl.msu.edu (Ron Fox)
Organization: National Superconducting Cyclotron Lab.


--
In article <92347.102427JIM@auvm.american.edu>, jim@american.edu (Jim McIntosh) writes:
>...
>DEVEL-L is a public discussion list for all persons interested in
>Technology Transfer in International Development. It is sponsored by
>Volunteers in Technical Assistance (private, nonprofit) and is a channel
>for distribution of VITA's newsletter, DevelopNet News.
>---

I always thought VITA was VME Industrial Trade Association. Just goes
to show there aren't any good acronyms left :-).

Seriously.  What opportunities are there for assisting in technology
transfer in the area of real time data acquisition software/hardware and
it's realationship to networking.  My current work is in data acquisition
software for a laboratory engaged in basic research into nuclear physics
but I've also done sonic data acquisition (bird songs)?
	RF

Ron Fox                     | FOX@MSUNSCL.BITNET      | Where the name 
NSCL                        | FOX@RUDOLF.NSCL.MSU.EDU | goes on before
Michigan State University   | MSUHEP::RUDOLF::FOX     | the quality
East Lansing, MI 48824-1321 |                         | goes in.
USA
Xref: sparky bit.admin:245 bit.listserv.devel-l:1
Organization: The American University - University Computing Center
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 10:24:27 EST
From: Jim McIntosh <jim@american.edu>
Newsgroups: bit.admin,bit.listserv.devel-l
Subject: Gateway for bit.listserv.devel-l Operational

At the request of the listowner, this gateway has been established.

DEVEL-L@AUVM is now available in Usenet newsgroup bit.listserv.devel-l.

DEVEL-L is a public discussion list for all persons interested in
Technology Transfer in International Development. It is sponsored by
Volunteers in Technical Assistance (private, nonprofit) and is a channel
for distribution of VITA's newsletter, DevelopNet News.
---
Jim McIntosh (jim@american.edu)
The American University
Washington DC 20016-8019 USA
From: emv@msen.com (Edward Vielmetti)
Newsgroups: bit.admin
Subject: Re: Gateway for NETTRAIN under discussion
Date: 15 Dec 1992 23:57:36 GMT
Organization: Msen, Inc. -- Ann Arbor, Michigan
NNTP-Posting-Host: garnet.msen.com
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8]

James Milles (bs363@cleveland.Freenet.Edu) wrote:

: I have proposed that the BITNET/Internet Trainers' Discussion 
: List (NETTRAIN@UBVM) should be gated to netnews as 
: bit.listserv.nettrain.  I am the listowner and moderator or
: NETTRAIN, and the LISTSERV administrator ad UBVM is agreeable.
: The membership has been polled, and there is no serious objection
: to the gateway.

Sounds like a good idea, I'd be sure to read the group!  (Have avoided
it to date for fear of my mailbox filling up....)

  Edward Vielmetti, vice president for research, Msen Inc. emv@Msen.com
        Msen Inc., 628 Brooks, Ann Arbor MI  48103 +1 313 998 GLOB
From: ajm@darkstar.bigcat.bellcore.com (Tony Merolla)
Newsgroups: nj.misc
Subject: Re: Test Post - No Content - test followup
Keywords: none
Date: 7 Dec 92 16:17:02 GMT
Organization: Bellcore, Livingston, NJ

In article <1992Dec7.155448.8668@porthos.cc.bellcore.com>, ajm@darkstar.bigcat.bellcore.com (Tony Merolla) writes: