HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ctrbdo@iapa.uucp%mailhost.ecn.uoknor.edu (bryan d oakley)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
Subject: concession, flames, discussion (re: fencing or fighting?)
Date: 16 Dec 92 17:09:01 GMT
Organization: FAA / Mike Monroney Aeronautical Center

Ok.  In this short time I concede.  I've received a few mail messages
and read todays news and no one seems to mind the mix.  Ha!  I guess
you showed me, huh?  Now for a flame:

>>> Mark Schuldenfrei (schuldy@progress.com) both posted and emailed:
> How about, you learn to use a better newsreader, and select what you
> want to see, instead of editting the universe that other people worked
> for?  

Hmmm.. caught me on a bad day with that one.  We'll do it your way.
Why not just have one global usenet newsgroup for ALL the news and let
anyone post anything and let your 'superior' newsreader filter it all
for you?  There's a reason there's a hierarchy to the news.  I like my
newsreader just fine, thank you.  I was merely curious if this group
was meeting other's needs in the way they expected for this group, and
if others were surprised about the first few dozen postings.

> No offense, but if you want more discussion of competetive
> fencing, start talking!

offense taken :-)

Ok, here goes.  Here's something that I've found to have various
interpretations depending on who you ask, though the rules are *fairly*
clear on this issue.  I was directing in this situation and got in an
argument with a very upset fencer and two fairly well respected
members of the bout committee over this one (one fencer came away
happy though :-).

In a semi-final bout, score tied at 4-4.  Fencer A finds him/her self
at the rear limit of the strip.  Fencer B advances, causing Fencer A
to retreat with haste, landing his back foot well behind the rear
limit, front foot in the air.  This fencer (A) then thrusts and lands,
with Fencer B counter thrusting and also landing, no blade contact
between them.  A halt is called while Fencer A's front foot is in the
air, and then Fencer A's front foot comes down on the rear limit line
after the halt.  What's the call?

  a) Fencer A loses because he/she was off the strip and the attack is
     invalid, or

  b) Fencer A wins because the attack was valid since both feet
     were not off the strip.

  c) some other interpretation...


-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Instrument Approach Procedures Automation              DOT/FAA/AMI-230
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Bryan D. Oakley                    ctrbdo%iapa@mailhost.ecn.uoknor.edu
Organization: Sophomore, H&SS general, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 19:11:51 -0500 
From: Randy M Bruno <rb6b+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Fencing Technologies Sabre Boxes.

Excerpts from netnews.rec.sport.fencing: 10-Dec-92 Fencing Technologies
Sabre .. by Theo Norvell@csri.toront 
>Our club is considering getting the three weapon box from Fencing
>Technologies.
>Has anyone had any experiences (good or bad) with this box or the company
>that sells it?

Yes, the Fencing Technologies scoring machine was made by God himself.
My club is looking in to buying two.

Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
From: kassover@rumsey.crd.ge.com (David Kassover)
Subject: Re: Broadsword fencing - StageFighting (Longish?)
Organization: nope
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 01:15:02 GMT

In article <1992Dec12.114315.1@kean.ucs.mun.ca> psachdev@kean.ucs.mun.ca writes:
>
>I think the most important thing to remember is that we are a very young
>martial art, and I doubt that fencing, karate or any of the rest had well-
>developed training programs or precise techniques when they originated. 
>Just give us some time.  :)
>
>Besides, there's nothing like being on the field of battle with 2,000
>other fighters....

Another thing Maestro Collins was fond of saying was this: "In
practice, you do what I tell you.  In a bout, you do what works."


-- 
David Kassover             "Proper technique helps protect you against
uupsi!khazad!kassover	          sharp weapons and dull judges."
kassover@aule-tek.com                   F. Collins
kassover@ra.crd.ge.com
From: ajl@ecs.soton.ac.uk (Lewis AJ)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
Subject: Re: cross training for fencing
Date: 14 Dec 92 11:34:21 GMT

In article <3DEC199212003696@summa.tamu.edu> wma6617@summa.tamu.edu (ASHE, WILLIAM MONROE) writes:
>I have been experimenting with different types of cross training for fencing
>for several years now (as my busy graduate school lack of life allows).
>
>I'm curious how other people cross train.  I guess the goal here is how to
>train hard and still have enough time for other things (like work and classes)

Juggling. I took up juggling a year ago, and I swear by it - its relaxing,
superb for the reflexes, dexterity, muscle tone, etc etc etc.
its wonderful for warming up as well.
Since I learned to juggle five balls, my fencing has improved no end.

Andy

-- 
Andy Lewis (ajl@ecs.soton.ac.uk) | 
Department of Electronics        | A juggler without a theme...
and Computer Science             | 
University of Southampton        |
From: uzgiris@whitewater.chem.wisc.edu (Jim Uzgiris)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
Subject: Rapier Fencing
Date: 15 Dec 92 23:34:54 GMT
Organization: Physical Sciences Lab, UW-Madison


	I've noticed a few people mentioning rapier techniques, etc.
Could someone who is in a group that is into rapier fighting send a  
description of the equipment and rules involved. I assume the responses  
will be mainly from SCA persons, but I'm also interested in knowing if any  
other groups organize this sort of thing.
	Also, how many of you have managed to merge specific sword  
techniques, training strategies, tactics, etc. from Renaissance fencing  
manuals with your modern fencing style and come out ahead of the  
competition. Neat tricks, good sources of info, interesting stories, and  
so on would make for some interesting posts. Yes?

Thanks in advance.

Jim Uzgiris
Uzgiris@Whitewater.chem.wisc.edu
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
From: gl8f@fermi.clas.Virginia.EDU (Greg Lindahl)
Subject: Re: fencing or fighting?
Organization: Department of Astronomy, University of Virginia
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 18:21:44 GMT

In article <1992Dec16.135824.7170@dutrun2.tudelft.nl> edwin@dutlru.tudelft.nl (Edwin Wisse) writes:

>As far as I remember the charter covered dicussions about just about
>any weapon excluding firmearms so the swordfighters really have a right
>to discuss broadsword-bashing here.

Yup. But what about the stupid "broadswords attacking a modern fencer"
discussion, and the even stupider "would a pistol grip be useful for a
broadsword" discussion? Then there's the endless "what's more
realistic" discussion. Just think, within a couple of months we'll
have our canonical flamewars all mapped out.
From: nyden@wdl30.wdl.loral.com (William Nyden)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
Subject: Re: A fencing life
Keywords: fencers
Date: 16 Dec 92 03:27:40 GMT
Organization: Space Systems/Loral

In article <1992Dec14.005312.21145@rtsg.mot.com> svoboda@rtsg.mot.com (David Svoboda) writes:
>
>And has anyone ever found themselves:
>
>   . Playing badminton, and *lunging* at the shuttlecock?
>

Carlos Fuertes (several times Pacific Coast Saber Champion, is he still around?)
once won some tennis lessons taught by the great Pancho Gonzales.  After about
fifteen minutes of tossing balls to Carlos,
Pancho got frustrated and yelled, ``What the hell is this kind of move?'' and,
imitating Fuertes, did a very creditable lunge.
-- 
 Bill Nyden                          |    I do not officially represent anyone
  ( nyden@wdl1.wdl.loral.com )       |    other than myself on this network...
   SSI DiveCon 0006DC                |    ...and sometimes not even me.
   Nullum prandium gratuitum         | 
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
From: comptec92024@camins.camosun.bc.ca
Subject: Re: Thrusts AND Cuts 
Organization: Camosun College
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 23:42:17 GMT

In article <1992Dec8.002022.6678@tfs.com>, paigen@tfs.com (David Paigen) writes:
> Brian made some other interesting points, but since I didn't want to
> reply to them, I deleted them.
> 
> bwilson@eng.auburn.edu (Brian Scott Wilson) writes:
> 
>>I really hate to disagree with a good fellow but I'm afraid I must.
> 
> That's ok, I forgive you :-)  
> 
>>In article 16308@tfs.com, paigen@tfs.com (David Paigen) writes:
>>>There were, as I understand it, a number of reasons for the decline of the
>>>broad-, or long-sword.  
>>>
>>>    - A thrust is faster than a cut
> 
>>First of all this is just not totally true. In order to hit someone with
>>a thrust, a person must move ther hand several inches to several feet.
>>To cut a fighter may only have to pivot their hand. Depending on the
>>position of the bodies in a fight a cut could be much faster than a cut.
> 
> Excuse me, Brian, but this is an incomplete analysis of the situation.
> Assuming that the blade is in line, a thrust requires the tip of the blade
> to travel forward some distance, D.  A cut, on the other hand, requires
> the tip of the blade to move out of line some distance, L, move forward
> D, and then come back into line (L again).  It is clear that, if you start
> from inline, a thrust require the tip to travel less distance.
> 
> Also, in order to move the blade correctly in a cut, you must apply force
> not only against the mass of the blade but the moment arm as well.  In
> a long object like a sword, this can be considerable.  A thrust only
> requires force to act against the mass of the blade.
> 
> Lastly, to cut you use the muscles in your wrist, to thrust you use the
> muscles in your upper arm and torso.  Obviously, more power can be
> applied to the thrust.
> 
>>>As an aside, I don't recall ever having seen "broadsword" in a period
>>>context.  I think the use of that word really stems from Dungeons and
>>>Dragons.
> 
>>The Term Broadsword was a common term in many periods and many places.
> 
> Documentation, please.

Interesting discusion, one point thought. To use a "broadsword"(no
documentation) you had better use more then your wrist or you will end up with
a very bad case of carpal tunnel syndrone. To use this type of sword you
generate the power mostly from your legs twisting your body. The technique is a
lot like punching in Karate. You may be suprised how fast the weapon would
move.

The power is generated in the leg and the rest of the body is used to direct
where the sword goes.
From: schuldy@progress.COM (Mark Schuldenfrei)
Subject: Re: fencing or fighting?
Organization: Progress Software Corp.
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 22:22:03 GMT

bryan d oakley writes:

  How 'bout (pun intended) a straw poll:  

You're mailer doesn't create an internet acceptable address for
replies.  I got a bounce message.  Would make for a boring poll,
wouldn't it?

	schuldy

Here's what I wrote to bryan:
  I missed the first few days of the newsgroup, I think, so I'm not sure
  of what the charter is here.  So as not to go on and on about my
  personal preferences, perhaps I can spark some discussion on what this
  newsgroup is all about.

The charter allows for SCA combat, and that's what *I* voted for.

      a) How many competitive fencers don't want to see SCA related
         discussions, 
Not a competitive fencer (thinking about it though), and no, I want to
see them.

      b) How many SCA'ists don't want to see competitive fencing related
         discussion, 
No, I want to see them.

      c) how many want both to continue in the same group.
I want the group I voted for, yes.

     d) how many don't give a flip...
All of you, don't vote... (:-)

  Less I be misunderstood, I don't want to banish either group.  I'm
  just curious if everyone out there likes the mix.

How about, you learn to use a better newsreader, and select what you
want to see, instead of editting the universe that other people worked
for?  No offense, but if you want more discussion of competetive
fencing, start talking!

	schuldy (admittedly, SCA fighting does have another forum...)
-- 
Mark Schuldenfrei (schuldy@progress.com)
[I'm just showin' you my opinions: this ain't a gift]
--
Mark Schuldenfrei (schuldy@progress.com)
[I'm just showin' you my opinions: this ain't a gift]
From: brichard@cbmvax.commodore.com (B. Richard)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
Subject: Re: Computer games?
Date: 10 Dec 92 22:28:09 GMT
Reply-To: brichard@cbmvax.commodore.com (B. Richard)
Organization: Commodore, West Chester, PA

In article <1992Dec9.222815.27934@rock.concert.net> penfold@rock.concert.net (Patricia A White -- Oxford University Press -- MIS) writes:
>
>Are there any video/computer fencing games?

  Try "Summer Games" on the Amiga.  It dates back a few years and so 
may require an OLD version of the OS.  I think it was by Epyx.

  There was also a video game in the arcades in the mid '80s.  I don't 
remember its name, but it was a 2 player or player vs. computer game. 
It was done in vector graphics and the playing field was the screen 
with 2 large square pits.  You would win by either striking the other 
player or causing them to fall into one of the pits.  It was Japanese 
in origin and the sword play was more like Kendo than western fencing.

  Enjoy!
    -B.R-
------------------------------------------------------------------------
B. Richard           Make Up   Internet: brichard@commodore.com
C= H/W Engr.     //   Your         UUCP: {uunet!rutgers}!cbmvax!brichard
 Amiga  CDTV   \X/  Own Mind!            "Who is John Galt?"
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
From: rcnelson@icaen.uiowa.edu (Ryan Christian Nelson)
Subject: Re: Fencing IS a sport (was: Re: French grips suck!)
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 21:59:12 GMT
Organization: University of Iowa, Iowa City, IA, USA
X-Newsreader: NN version 6.4.19

>>In article <BypDnC.98@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>
>>           burdickd@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Dakin Burdick) writes:
>>>          I always add a draw cut after a hit, because that is
>>>          the way to do damage to an opponent.

I've ALWAYS hated people who do stuff like this.  Unless I'm playing your
game WITH you, then I don't want you playing attilla the hun while I'm 
trying to advance to the next pool.
  
I suppose that, in order to keep historical perspective, when playing chess,
when you capture your opponant's queen you always behead the piece?


Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
From: psachdev@kean.ucs.mun.ca
Subject: Re: Broadsword fencing - StageFighting (Longish?)
Organization: Memorial University. St.John's Nfld, Canada
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 14:13:15 GMT

In article <1992Dec12.054400.9034@rtsg.mot.com>, svoboda@rtsg.mot.com 
(David Svoboda) writes:

> I was at that time teaching beginner fencers, and we were very careful 
> to teach them something of form and defense, drill, drill, drill,
> then put them on the strip, and go REAL EASY with them.  Not beat them
> up.
> 
> Well, because my friends did it, I saw that group "perform" several
> more times.  The were without skill.  As another poster put it, they
> shuffled around, feignted high, hit low, or vice versa, had no
> footwork, no balance, no grace.  And these guys were respected for
> their abilities!
> 
> This impression of SCA fighting I thought was just a singular bad
> experience.  But I hear similar stories from other people.  I don't
> doubt there are people serious about SCA fighting.  But there are
> also definitely jerks like I met, "whackos" who like to hit each
> other with sticks, and helpless strangers, with sticks.
> 
> 		Dave Svoboda

Gosh, I stumble across a great new newsgroup and find yet more people
abusing my favorite after-school activity  :) :) :)

At least in this small and isolated SCA group, we try to instruct
new fighters a bit before we put them in armor - particularly
the basic blows and shield work.  We're also very gentle on them when
they start (no fancy "trick" shots, no super-aggresiveness).  Having
done SCA heavy weapons fighting, Olympic fencing and a bit of SCA rapier combat
(have you talked about that?  A comparison of those two types of "fencing"
would make more sense), I have to agree that our fighting does lack
the grace and precise movements of fencing, but we are talking about clubs,
not foils.  

I think the most important thing to remember is that we are a very young
martial art, and I doubt that fencing, karate or any of the rest had well-
developed training programs or precise techniques when they originated. 
Just give us some time.  :)

Besides, there's nothing like being on the field of battle with 2,000
other fighters....

Duncan McAndrew
Psachdev@kean.ucs.mun.ca
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
From: svoboda@rtsg.mot.com (David Svoboda)
Subject: A fencing life (was Re: Drop Outs)
Keywords: fencers
Organization: Motorola Inc., Cellular Infrastructure Group
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 00:53:12 GMT

In article <1992Dec10.173546.5124@kestrel.edu> king@reasoning.com (Dick King) writes:
|
|In my opinion there is a talented fencer buried deep inside many good ping pong
|players.  The footwork is similar, the distance scales are similar, the
|required reaction times are similar, and the subtle fingerwork is probably
|similar.

Yeah, I would agree with that, from the other direction.  After having become
faintly proficient with foil and epee, I was taught to play table tennis, and
found myself to be a "natural".  I am rarely a "natural" at anything physical,
so I suspect it was the fencing mindset.

And has anyone ever found themselves:

   . Playing badminton, and *lunging* at the shuttlecock?

   . Dancing, and looking down to find their feet in a nice en-guard stance?

   . Their date's feet?

   . Buying a dress jacket a bit loose, becuause the right forearm arm is tight
	otherwise?

   . Sitting on a bus, with people staring because their right hand is
	unconsciously practicing bladework combinations?

   . Standing up while riding a moving bus or train, starting to stumble, and
	automatically saving with a nice advance-retreat move?

   . Accidentally holding out their *left* hand to shake?


(Any more? :)
		Dave Svoboda
From: markk@pongo.West.Sun.COM (Mark Allen Kampe)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
Subject: Re: fencing or fighting?
Date: 15 Dec 1992 22:25:25 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems
Distribution: world
Reply-To: markk@pongo.West.Sun.COM
NNTP-Posting-Host: pongo.west.sun.com

Some people are in active competition, and information that won't improve
their seeding in the next few weeks is irrelevent.  I am not one of those
people.

I fence because it is fun.  I do many other related activities because they
are fun too.  I enjoy the diversity of topics here, and don't think they
are ranging too far away from the topic of fencing.

Some groups adopt the convention of starting each title with a keyword that
classifies the article.  Keywords for r.s.f might be:

	COMP		competition
	STYLE		style and technique
	TECH		technical/electronic/metalurgical information
	RULES		discussions of rules and recent and proposed changes
	HIST		historical discussions
	EQUIP		equipment reviews and questions
	CLUBS		information about clubs
	SALE		information about equipment for sale or desired
	KENDO		discussions of shinnai/bokken fencing
	SCA		discussions of SCA fencing

and so forth.  This would make it easier for people who were offended by
certain discussions to set up kill files to ferret out the stuff that
they considered to be poot.
From: mece25r@jane.uh.edu (Palit, Suman)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
Subject: Re: Finding Fencing in Santa Barbara area
Date: 16 Dec 1992 17:21 CST
Organization: University of Houston
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: jane.uh.edu
Keywords: help
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    

In article <1992Dec16.183018.25476@smartstar.com>, ben@shark.smartstar.com (Benjamin Ellsworth) writes...
>Is there a FAQ for this group?  Failing that, what is the net.wisdom
>for someone taking up the sport (things to watch out for, bad habits to
>avoid, etc)?
> 


Well, I'm working on possible formats for an FAQ which will keep everyone happy,
this is a new group, and I just have the barest feel for the way things will
go. Look for an FAQ, a first edition only, sometime next month.

I'm sure you'll get replies from fencers near your neighbourhood about clubs,
salles you can join, etc. All I can tell you stems from my meagre one-year
experience with fencing is:

] Fencing is hard work, and takes a very different set of muscles than any 
other sport. ( Sometimes I feel that all this cross-training stuff on the net
is moot, since the only *good* training for fencing is fencing, so to speak )

] Concentrate on building good form before trying out for speed, etc. Bad form
directly translates to injuries, specially ankle, knee and hamstring injuries.
Nothing like a good 15 min stretch to reduce the likelihood of that.

] Blade breaking is the other possible source of injury, but IMHO, quite
overrated. Good equipment, and clean fencing habits should take care of that.

Everything else you'll pick up along the way. And if you've never fenced before,
welcome to the world of fencing.....(again I wax emotional  :-) )



Suman Palit
mece25r@jetson.uh.edu

Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
From: ferret@paradox.engin.umich.edu (kenneth r lipka)
Subject: Re: Epee/Foil Flamewar
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 92 09:31:57 EST
Organization: University of Michigan Engineering, Ann Arbor
Originator: ferret@paradox.engin.umich.edu


In article <1gb1pcINNste@iskut.ucs.ubc.ca>, morgan@sitka.triumf.ca (Morgan Burke) writes:
> ... a foil---it's not a real weapon.
> 
> .............................................. Morgan Burke
>                                                morgan@sitka.triumf.ca


	My point exactly.  And your caution is duely noted.  (So I'm enthusiastic.)

	Ken Lipka
	ferret@engin.umich.edu
From: ciaran@county.lmt.mn.org (Ciaran Benson)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
Subject: Re: Broadsword fencing - StageFighting
Date: 10 Dec 92 21:02:14 GMT
Reply-To: ciaran@county.lmt.mn.org (Ciaran Benson)
Organization: LaserMaster Technologies, Minneapolis, MN

In article <1g34fqINN6j8@smurf.sti.com>, alaric@sti.com (Alaric Tekiahyn) 
writes:
> You try to avoid square-on edge-to-edge
> impacts whenever possible - that's how blades get broken.  In the
> perfect broadsword parry, your opponent's edge hits your flat at a
> shallow angle and slides off along your blade with most of its
> momentum intact, hopefully swinging off into the distance and
> leaving you a nice opening for a counterstrike.  If you want to
> see this done perfectly, watch a Japanese iai-do master.


	Fascinating -- I'd always believed that edge-on-flat was more
likely to cause fractures than edge-on-edge.  Of course, that
makes a considerable amount of sense since the body of the blade
should be much softer than the edge -- yielding versus brittle.
Lot easier on the elbow joints, too.

------------------------
Ciaran@county.lmt.mn.org                      Not an LM spokesbeing

  "... hey but I don't care cause sometimes I said sometimes I hear
   my voice and it's been HERE silent all these years" -- TORI AMOS