HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: hallam@zeus02.desy.de (Phillip M. Hallam-Baker)
Subject: Re: Iraq/Kuwait border dispute?
Reply-To: hallam@zeus02.desy.de
Organization: DESY ZEUS Central Data Acquisition
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 19:39:38 GMT

In article <1992Jul30.131617.185122@cs.cmu.edu>, anwar+@cs.cmu.edu
(Anwar Mohammed) writes:

|>>>The most stupid blunder Bush made in the war was giving Saddam the
|>>>dignity of a battle. Forcing the Iraqui's to go home without a fight
|>>>would have dishonoured him, in that part of the world you can loose a
|>>>battle (especialy to the great Satan) but you can't loose face. 
|>>
|>This is utterly inane reasoning.  Poor Saddam...didn't get his
|>butt kicked and utterly humiliated by the U.S. and its allies...
|>I guess all he has now is Kuwait.  Please!

He survived, to Saddam that was winning. His population are now too
worried about starvation to get rid of him. 

The Iraqui's know that the US has vastly superior fire power. They also
know that the US failed to get rid of Saddam even after trying their
hardest.

|>>>Yes making ME states bow down to superior fire power. Gosh what a great
|>>>way to prove our moral superiority, lets just kill a couple of hundred
|>>>thousand extra Iraquis. That's really going to convince them that
|>>>democracy is a great thing.
|>
|>No, let's stop Saddam from killing another couple of hundred thousand 
|>extra Iraqis by starvation and military offensives, like he did after 
|>the Gulf war.  

Very few Iraqui troops died in offensives, almost all died in the
retreat from Kewait after Saddam had offered a cease fire. 

|>Unlike most of the leftist propaganda we see these days,
|>let's put the blame for these death where they squarely belong.

"Leftist propaganda", gosh you wouldn't be a friend of McArthy's by any chance?

|>The allies are only partially responsible...for not killing that SOB before 
|>he decided to start yet another purge of the country of Shi'a and Kurds.

And just how do you propose to kill Saddam without killing at least a
hundred thousand people with him, alienating support throughout the
entire arab world and jepordising the peace talks?

I remember when only five years ago the British government considered it
perfectly OK for Saddam to spy on all Iraqui students in the UK, they
were happy to renew the visas of the people concerned and took
absolutely no notice of any complaints. Now they are pretending that
they are great defenders of moral rights, yet they when they had the
chance to protect Iraquis in Britain they wern't interested, is it
likely that they have any interest in protecting Iraquis in Iraq?


Phill Hallam-Baker
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (Eric S. Perlman)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Radio Host Fired After Jewish Prote
Date: 30 Jul 92 16:16:04 GMT
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder

In article <24303@castle.ed.ac.uk> egpv29@castle.ed.ac.uk (JHenderson) writes:
>In article <1992Jul30.005847.16266@colorado.edu> perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (Eric S. Perlman) writes:
>=>In article <1992Jul29.203140.10669@dscomsf.desy.de> hallam@zeus02.desy.de writes:
>=>>In article <1992Jul29.181318.1759@colorado.edu>,
>=>>perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (Eric S. Perlman) writes:
>=>>
>=>>|>>The main qualification for entry in Sternlight's kill file seems to
>=>>|>>be posting something which threatens to undermine the delicate house
>=>>|>>of cards that constitutes his "opinions". I'm afarid it isn't a very
>=>>|>>exclusive club - sorry to disappoint you!
>=>>|>
>=>>|>Unfortunately, the only house of cards between you two is your opinions,
>=>>|>Henderson.  Not his.  
>=>>
>=>>Come off it, Muppet man may have a problem but Sternlight is in the
>=>>habit of inflating the importance of his killfile. He once emailed me
>=>>telling me that he was considering putting me in it because I said that
>=>>anyone starting a thread with a capitalized title, the word "FACTS" and
>=>>the word "BASHER" in the title was wanting a flame war, not a debate,
>=>>and that the thread would consist of ad-hominem bashing and be entirely
>=>>devoid of facts. Well was I right or was I right?
>=>
>=>In my opinion, partly right.  I would agree with you that anyone
>=>starting a thread with a capitalized title wants only a flame war, not a
>=>debate; we need only look at those who have used that tactic frequently
>=>on this and other groups - Elghani, arf, etc.  However, words like
>=>"facts" and "basher", capitalized or not, have uses both inflammatory
>=>and non, depending on context, so I would disagree with you there.  A
>=>similar comment applies to your corollary.
>
>How convenient that this allows you to criticise Arf and co., without
>setting yourself against the instigator of the "FACTS EVERY ISRAEL BASHER.."
>thread. No doubt you will dig up some similar ad hoc justification of
>the "JUST YOU HENDERSON" thread. Remarkable, the flexibility of your
>standards.

Remarkable, the demons you see behind every empty corner!

No such ad hoc justification was involved.  I didn't participate in the
JUST YOU HENDERSON thread (from memory), and while I do think that the
instigator of the FACTS EVERY ISRAEL BASHER... thread pointed out
several relevant facts, he did so in a way which made it a guaranteed
piece of flame-bait.  Even though the original info was largely correct,
it should have been stated in a very different manner.

-- 
"How sad to see/A model of decorum and tranquillity/become like any other sport
A battleground for rival ideologies to slug it out with glee." -Tim Rice,"Chess"
     Eric S. Perlman 				 <perlman@qso.colorado.edu> 
  Center for Astrophysics and Space Astronomy, University of Colorado, Boulder
From: rdtst+@pitt.edu (Richard D. Thorne)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Zachary Baumel
Date: 23 Jul 92 17:32:26 GMT
Organization: University of Pittsburgh

| Has it occurred to you that some people might consider Mr. Baumel a
| prisoner of war, and not a hostage?
| --
| Yigal Arens   "He seems like an average type of man.  He's not, like, smart.


      Mr. Baumel should be treated as a POW, but he has not been.  His
      captors treat him like a hostage or worse.  The international
      community has an obligation to demand that he either be treated
      as a POW or regard him as a hostage. 
            Richard Thorne rdt@med.pitt.edu
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: nabil@ncrcol.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM (Nabil Idriss)
Subject: Re: What price for peace?
Organization: NCR E&M Columbia SC.
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 92 18:39:07 GMT

In article <1992Jul16.035107.11984@wpi.WPI.EDU> nyh@wpi.WPI.EDU (Nevo Y Hed) writes:
>In article <1992Jul15.212208.4866@elroy.jpl.nasa.gov> ejk@coral.JPL.NASA.gov (Elya Kapelyan) writes:
>>
>>	Excuse me, but as far as I recall, the mayor of Haifa actually 
>>_begged_ the Arab residents to stay.  (The only such case that was well
>>publicized.)
>>
>>	Parenthetically, "mirth" means gaiety or hilarity.
>> 
>
>
>
>	I think that it really dosen't matter how the Palestinas were
>driven out - that is an impractical argument.  I will take Nabil's
>word that his parents were forced out.
>
>	That is hardly were our argument was - our argument was  who
>attacked who in '48 - lets not go off to a flame war of 'your
>atrocities are wose then mine' etc. 
>
>	Back to the issue at hand: did or didn't the Arab world
>declared that they are going to remove the Jewish entity?  What
>'welcome' did Israel got on the night it's independence was signed?  
>
>
Yes, they did Nevo, I think this was out of anger. Do find some
similarities between Yugoslavia and Palesine in 1948? 
>
>	-Nevo
>


-- 
Nabil Idriss                           |       FOR EVERY ACTION AN OPPOSITE  
NCR - Midrange Products Division       |       AND EQUAL REACTION.
      Columbia, South Carolina         |      
email: nabil@ncrcol.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM |
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay)
Subject: Re: Radio Host Fired After Jewish Protest
Organization: Australian National University
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1992 01:53:06 GMT

singer@uwovax.uwo.ca writes:

>Arens Junior quotes a newspaper piece by somebody named Michaels which purports
>to quote a Jewish document presented to the Nazis in 1941 in which the
>expression "Israeli liberation movement" (sic) is used. Does anybody know
>whether the term "Israeli" was in use before 1948, and in fact as early as
>1941? Could this be another Protocols of the Elders of Zion?-- 

The correspondence was conducted in German.  The phrase you give could
easily be a translation or paraphrase of the name which Lehi then
called itself.  The authenticity of the correspondence has never
been seriously questioned.  By the way, Lehi also sought links with
the Italian fascists. 

Brendan.

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.turkish,talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.iranian
From: makowsky@enuxha.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky)
Subject: Re: territories vs the territories
Reply-To: makowsky@enuxha.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky)
Organization: Arizona State University, Tempe AZ
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 14:00:22 GMT

	Note - because the attributions may not be clear, I have added
some "#"'s to make it so.

In article <4571@daily-planet.concordia.ca> ilyess@athena.concordia.ca (Ilyess Bdira) writes:

# In article <1992Jul21.141541.25878@ennews.eas.asu.edu> makowsky@enuxha.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky) writes:

# #  	Either this is not true, they sliped up at least once, or it only
# #  applies to within a certain time frame.  I know someone who was born
# #  in Jerusalem and in their passport the country of origin is Israel.
# #  Now, this might apply only to those born after 1948, since the
# #  individual I know (my best friend's mother in law) was born prior to
# #  that.

# what is really happening here is the U.S offering lip service to the
# Arabs and the rest of the world while in practice obeying all orders 
# that come from the Israeli lobbey.
 
	This is insane.  Not only is it the other way around (and until
recently, Israel was not even the beneficiary of lip service), but in
this specific case what "orders" are being obeyed?

# #  	At any rate this whole argument is ridiculous.  It is not for
# #    anyone else to determine what another country declares is its
# #    capital.

# That is why you should not object if Palestine  (or even Jordan) declares 
# Jerusalem as its capital!

	My only objection would be on the grounds of practicality.
However, since there is no "palestine?", there can be nothing to
object to.  At any rate, Jerusalem is currently physically under
Israeli control.  If Jordan tried to make it under their control (i.e.
much more than a simple declaration), there would be a lot to object
to.
--

David Makowsky
makowsky@enuxha.eas.asu.edu
From: arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Radio Host Fired After Jewish Protest
Date: 27 Jul 92 21:23:14 GMT
Organization: USC/Information Sciences Institute
In-reply-to: singer@uwovax.uwo.ca's message of 25 Jul 92 21:38:53 GMT

In article <1992Jul25.173853.1@uwovax.uwo.ca> singer@uwovax.uwo.ca writes:
>
> Arens Junior quotes a newspaper piece by somebody named Michaels which
> purports to quote a Jewish document presented to the Nazis in 1941 in
> which the expression "Israeli liberation movement" (sic) is used. Does
> anybody know whether the term "Israeli" was in use before 1948, and in
> fact as early as 1941? Could this be another Protocols of the Elders
> of Zion?--

Oh boy, are you taking the easy way out!  So maybe this correspondence,
which was published in the mainstream, respectable Ha'aretz newspaper,
which has been discussed in Israel numerous times before and since,
which has never been denied or even disavowed by Shamir or anyone else
from Lehi --- maybe it's a forgery!  Yeah, that's the ticket!
--
Yigal Arens   "He seems like an average type of man.  He's not, like, smart.
USC/ISI        I'm not trying to bag on him or anything, but he has the same
arens@isi.edu  mentality I have -- and I'm in the eighth grade."     Vanessa
               Martinez, after VP Quayle's visit to her school-LA Times 5/21
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: ejk@coral.JPL.NASA.gov (Elya Kapelyan)
Subject: Re: IRAQ & UN Inspection - what next?
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory, NASA/Caltech
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 21:46:49 GMT

In article <1992Jul22.211832.734@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>, kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay) writes:
|> With the continuing refusal (by Iraq) to permit UN inspection teams into the
|> Ministry of Agriculture offices, speculation about Iraq's future once again
|> becomes interesting.
|> 
|> Is Iraq in violation of the ceasefire agreement? Their UN ambassador, in an
|> interview today (CNN), says that Iraq is not - that Iraq has the right as a
|> sovereign nation to deny entrance to government offices.
|> 
|> If Iraq _is_ in violation (again), will the UN push for a military solution?
|> Does the UN need another resolution to implement such a solution, or are
|> existing resolutions adequate?

	I don't know about the UN, but the US might very well give Iraq a 
military "reminder".  Not so much because of anything to do with Iraq, but
rather because Bush needs _something_ to regain his popularity, and rallying
round the flag (almost) always works.

|> Would the American and Canadian public accept such a solution? (I would, so
|> all those pursuing moral high ground may now pounce upon the issue in a
|> flurry of self-righteousness :-))
|> 
	Quite probably, because of the "circle the wagons" instinct.
 
|> -- 
|> "Also, our records do not support that Mr. Leuchter performed either
|> consulting or any service...I can attest that the planning and work was
|> performed by the Department of Correction Engineering Section and our
|> institution maintenance department." Signed: Gary T. Dixon, Warden NC

	Elya
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: naftaly@supergas.dazixco.ingr.com (Naftaly Stramer)
Subject: Israel Cancels Building in the West Bank
Reply-To: naftaly@dazixco.ingr.com
Organization: Dazix
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 21:33:47 GMT


FROM ISARELINE:

Israel Cancels Building Thousands of Units Not Yet Under
Constructions in Territories
 
Israel Radio, KOL YISRAEL, reports today that Israeli Minister of
Finance, Avraham Shohat, and Minister of Construction and Housing,
Binyamin Ben-Eliezer, have decided to cancel the building of about
6,900 units in the Territories whose construction contracts have
not yet been signed or whose construction has not yet begun.
Similarly, 3,000 other apartments planned for inside the Green Line
will not be built. Paving will be halted on a number of roads that
Shohat termed "political roads", including the new road that
surrounds Samaria and a road surrounding Nablus. The work on some
short surrounding roads will continue. Shohat announced that the
construction of 8,700 units in the Territories will continue and
that construction in the area of Jerusalem will not be disturbed.
KOL YISRAEL adds that the savings on construction add up to over
one billion New Shekels.


--
Naftaly Stramer (303)530-0441, FAX (303)581-0106    DAZIX, An Intergraph Company
Internet: naftaly@dazixco.ingr.com                  6285 Lookout Road    
UUCP: ..uunet!ingr!dazixco!naftaly  	            Boulder, CO 80301
Please excuse my English
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Israel Cancels Building in the West Bank
From: scott@anasaz (Scott Gibson)
Date: 29 Jul 92 14:26:59 GMT
Reply-To: scott@qip.UUCP (Scott Gibson)
Organization: Anasazi, Inc.  Phoenix, Az

In article <1992Jul28.144025.8529@ncsu.edu> hernlem@chermfss.ncsu.EDU (Brad Hernlem) writes:
>
>I do not cheer the excessive influence of Syria in Lebanon and
>I wish that the Lebanese would be free to exercise their own
>sovereignty, however, Israel is bombing, rocketting, and shelling
>Lebanese villages because the inhabitants refuse to accept occupation
>peacefully, not because they are attacking Israel.

While I understand your viewpoint, it doesn't go very far to explain
why the Lebanese, who violently resist Israel's encroachment (which
is almost certainly defensive in nature), do not violently resist
Syria's encroachment (which is a glaringly obvious ploy to grab
land and influence).

I believe it is because the Lebanese have already lost the battle
to resist the Syrians; of course, this gives Syria the status of
an occupying force, which you seem to reject acknowledging.



-- 
But you knew your figure cut a cipher/ Through every crafted plan/ And 
playing our game for real/ Saw through our plumbing jobs/ And wayward glands/
To a meaning of your own, in bones."  - Iain M. Banks, "Use of Weapons"
Scott Gibson                   {ames!ncar!noao!asuvax,mcdphx}!anasaz!qip!scott
Disclaimer:  These opinions are my own, and may change without prior notice.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: horen@rs.com (Jonathan B. Horen)
Subject: Re: Radio Host Fired After Jewish Prote
Organization: Renaissance Software, Inc.
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 12:08:49 PDT

In article <1992Jul23.182600.16986@usenet.ins.cwru.edu> bx573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alan H. Stein) writes:
>
>In a previous article, awair@igc.org (Arab World and Islamic Resources) says:
>
>>
>>From: Arab World and Islamic Resources <awair>
>>Subject: Radio Host Fired After Jewish Protest
>>
>>July 1st was the last program on KALW-FM (San Francisco Bay Area)
>>regularly hosted by Colin Edwards, who for several years on that
>>station has given valuable information and commentary on the
>>Israeli-Palestinian conflict. 
>
>I wonder if the fact that Edwards is a hate-monger, or the fact that he had
>little regard for facts and made up absurd, inflammatory statements such as
>"Yitzhak Shamir and David Ben Gurion colluded with the Nazis during World
>War II" could have had anything to do with his well-deserved canning. 

Na-a-a-ah. Here in America it's perfectly OK to make racist statements,
provided that one is "expressing oneself", rather than being a "hate-
monger". Wassamatta? can't ya tell the difference??


Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: analyst@netcom.com (David Sternlight)
Subject: Re: Avoiding Flames
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 92 18:06:36 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)


Sandra is full of mirth when she says the Israelis are doing the same
thing in Lebanon that the Syrians are.

Very droll, Sandra.

The Israelis are there to prevent attacks on Israel from Lebanon.
The Syrians are not there to prevent attacks on Syria from Lebanon.

Sandra, uh, er, did you actually PASS political science?

-- 
David Sternlight        David Sternlight Inc.        email:analyst@netcom.COM
From: egpv29@castle.ed.ac.uk (JHenderson)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Radio Host Fired After Jewish Prote
Date: 29 Jul 92 08:44:49 GMT
Organization: Edinburgh University

In article <1992Jul28.125638.11263@wam.umd.edu> aap@wam.umd.edu (Alberto Adolfo Pinkas) writes:
=>In article <tqmm=lm.analyst@netcom.com>, analyst@netcom.com (David Sternlight) writes:
=>> 
=>> I see Yigal Arens public posts have become just as offensive as some
=>> of his recent emails to me. He's now on my kill list, right next to
=>> mutlu and the Neo-Nazis.
=>> 
=>
=>OK. 
=>But, why you suppose that we have to know who is in your kill list and 
=>who is not?
=>You do not have the obligation of readinig anything, that is your privilige.
=>But, why the advertisement?
=>This is like the list of people who has decided not to answer to ARF. 
=>Do not answer or put him in your kill file, but that is YOUR personal 
=>desicion. Who is or is not in anyone kill file has nothing to do with 
=>the politics in the Middle East.
=>By the way: Are you going to put me on your kill file, was I already there?

The main qualification for entry in Sternlight's kill file seems to
be posting something which threatens to undermine the delicate house
of cards that constitutes his "opinions". I'm afarid it isn't a very
exclusive club - sorry to disappoint you!


-- 
-Jeremy Henderson        egpv29@castle.ed.ac.uk   

(or am I?)
Organization: Masters student, Information Networking Institute, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 09:50:37 -0400 
From: Radu Eugen Edelstein <re0x+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: What price for peace?

Nabil writes:
o, If you were an adult at the time, so was my father. The main reason most
of the Arabs fled their homes was because of the Massacres they heared about
at Der Yassin and other villages. Yes, some arabs flee at the advice of the
Arabs, but the majority flee from the fear of getting the same fate of the
villagers of Der Yassin. My father told me, my grandfather told me, my uncle
told me, my aunt told me.

I say:
Jews were also hearing about (even more numerous) masacres commited by
the invading Arab armies, YET THEY STAYED !
Rad
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: rivk@ellis.uchicago.edu (nora gayle rivkis)
Subject: Re: Israel Cancels Building in the West Bank
Reply-To: rivk@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 01:42:15 GMT

In article <24242@castle.ed.ac.uk> egpv29@castle.ed.ac.uk (JHenderson) writes:
>In article <1992Jul27.201713.20989@midway.uchicago.edu> rivk@midway.uchicago.edu writes:

>=> Israel
>=>has a more efficient military by a long way; this means that when they
>=>answer rocket fire somebody is going to get hurt. That the Palestinian
>=>forces in Lebanon are not as good at what they are trying to do is not
>=>Israel's problem.
>
>You have a funny way of defining "efficiency" I guess you'd say that the
>Philly police were "efficient" at removing the "Move" folk from their 
>houses. Most people would have considered the number of civilian casualties
>when evaluating "efficiency" - you obviously have other (numbers of) standards.

I have an economically precise, if somewhat ruthless, definition of
efficiency: getting done what you want done at minimum cost to you.

>-Jeremy Henderson        egpv29@castle.ed.ac.uk   

>(or am I?)

No; you're actually Schmidling in disguise.

	-Nora
From: gene@cs.bu.edu (Gene Itkis)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: territories vs the territories
Date: 21 Jul 92 15:40:06 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Department, Boston University, Boston, MA, USA
Originator: gene@cs

In article <1992Jul21.063519.4451@rs.com> horen@rs.com writes:
+In article 21981@venera.isi.edu, arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens) writes:
+-I'm afraid you know wrong.  The US does not even recognize western
+-Jerusalem (i.e., the part taken by Israel in 1948) as part of Israel.
+-I've mentioned in the past that the US State Department will not record
+-a person's country of origin in a passport as 'Israel' if they were born
+-in Jerusalem.
+
+Ah-h-h, I'm afraid *you* know wrong. Both of my daughters were born at the 
+"Bikur Cholim" hospital, smack-dab in the middle of Jerusalem, and both of 
+their *American* passports list place of birth as "Jerusalem, Israel".

Perhaps you both know right: Yigal probably meant those born before 48.
-- 
 ---
	Gene Itkis		(gene@cs.bu.edu)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast