HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: fields@zip.eecs.umich.edu (Matthew Fields)
Subject: Re: Music Copying
Organization: University of Michigan EECS Dept., Ann Arbor
Distribution: rec
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 21:37:28 GMT

In article <1993Jan11.204915.11062@twisto.eng.hou.compaq.com> dixon@r2d2.eng.hou.compaq.com (Dixon Dick) writes:
>|> 
>|> I also swear by the Roemer text for hand copy.  But that text is more
>|> for learning how to do it, and it doesn't cover engraving standards,
>|> nor does it get into 20th Century stuff.  I more often (now that I've
>|> learned *how* from the Roemer) turn to _Music Notation in the Twentieth
>|> Century_ by Stone working as a copyist and/or consultant for music
>|> related software.  It is IMHO *the* last word in copy standards (i.e.
>|> how it's done).

>I agree with your notions about learning from the Roemer texts. However, I
>was recently in Hollywood and had a chance to talk to Clint (his health is
>not great either) and he has stopped publishing the book. If there is 
>enough interest from folks out there, I'm interested in picking up the text
>and re-publishing it, if Clint will agree. He just doesn't feel like it's
>worth the effort for him anymore, but I beg to differ on behalf of all
>the people who are about to wander _uneducated_ into the landscape of
>computer-based music copying.

Those who so wander include the programmers at Coda imho.  You got my
vote.  If it's so hot, I'll order one, and if after I read it it's hot
enough, I'll recommend it, too.  Maybe even make it a course textbook,
if I get the chance.
Lots of computer programs make neat graphics, but few make useable music
notation.  I've had classroom assignments turned in as dumps from the
notation window of Performer (a fancy MIDI sequencer with a tiny
notation facility---the makers now support some sort of pipelining to
their own big notation program called Mosaic).  These, were, naturally,
unreadable.
Newsgroups: rec.music.compose
From: w.purvis@daresbury.ac.uk (Bill Purvis, ext 3357)
Subject: Re: Music Theory?
Reply-To: w.purvis@daresbury.ac.uk
Organization: Daresbury Laboratory, UK
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 16:12:39 GMT

David Cottle wrote:

> There is a chapter on voice leading that you may want to skip.  We have
> very heated debates about the validity of teaching voice leading here.
> Some instructors never mention it (!).  I think it's still valid for
> most styles today (particularly jazz), but it may not help you
> *understand* most tonal systems.  It will just make you a better
> composer/arranger.  

I haven't come across the term `voice leading' before. Could someone give
me a brief explanation?? 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Purvis	   | email:	W.Purvis@uk.ac.daresbury	(JANET)
Daresbury Lab.     | 		W.Purvis@daresbury.ac.uk	(Internet)
Warrington	   | phone:	(+44) 925 603 357
Cheshire, England. |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroups: rec.music.compose
From: fullerto@mostaccioli.cis.ohio-state.edu (timothy dwight fullerton)
Subject: Re: Music Theory?
Keywords: Music, Text
Organization: The Ohio State University Dept. of Computer and Info. Science
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 04:15:54 GMT

In article <lkk09uINNcc@exodus.Eng.Sun.COM> gpg@astrix.Eng.Sun.COM writes:
>I know a little bit about music but have never read a text
>on music theory. I tried reading a translation of Fux's book
>on counterpoint and realized that I need to know more about
>basics.
>
>Could someone recommend a book on music theory that explains 
>all the basic concepts. 
> 


	For the very basic stuff I am partial to Paul O. Harder's books--
_Basic Materials in Music Theory_ and _Harmonic Materials in Tonal Music_.
They are very easy to understand. Other books go a lot deeper, but I have 
never seen another one that starts from scratch that would not require a
teacher's help to understand it.

	Tim



Newsgroups: rec.music.compose
From: rpeck@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (robert william peck)
Subject: Re: Music Theory?
Keywords: Music, Text
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 00:16:03 GMT

In article <lkk09uINNcc@exodus.Eng.Sun.COM> gpg@astrix.Eng.Sun.COM writes:
>I know a little bit about music but have never read a text
>on music theory. I tried reading a translation of Fux's book
>on counterpoint and realized that I need to know more about
>basics.
>
>Could someone recommend a book on music theory that explains 
>all the basic concepts. 
>
If you are particularly interested in counterpoint, you may consider a
general theory text which approaches the subject from a Schenkerian
point of view.  One of the best in this regard, in my opinion, is
_Harmony and Voice Leading_ 2nd Edition, by Edward Aldwell and Carl
Schachter (San Diego: Harcourt Brace Jovanovich, 1989), ISBN 0155315196.

I hope this helps!

--Bob  
Newsgroups: rec.music.compose
From: fields@zip.eecs.umich.edu (Matthew Fields)
Subject: Re: Music Copying
Organization: University of Michigan EECS Dept., Ann Arbor
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1993 22:17:34 GMT

In article <1993Jan10.162216.8722@cis.ohio-state.edu> fullerto@tortoise.cis.ohio-state.edu (timothy dwight fullerton) writes:
>	After having posted my copywork bibles, the Clinton Roemer books,
>a generous contributor to this group, Dr. Fields, replied to me privately
>and recommended a book that he uses.
>
>	That is _Duckles: Music Bibliography_.

Vincent Duckles' book is a standard among music historians, and is routinely
used to bore to death performance and composition majors.  But it is excellent
as a source of sources of sources, for those who thrive on making intelligent,
enlightening commentary on other people's music.
From: dvanslyk@aud.alcatel.com
Newsgroups: rec.music.compose
Subject: Music Copying
Date: 7 Jan 93 18:43:34 GMT
Distribution: rec

Does anyone know of any good books on the subject of music
copying (music notation rules)? 

Don Van Slyke 
dvanslyk@rdxsun78.aud.alcatel.com
Newsgroups: rec.music.compose
From: cottle@cmp-rt.music.uiuc.edu (David M. Cottle)
Subject: Re: Music Copying
Organization: University of Illinois School of Music
Distribution: rec
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 15:36:03 GMT

In article <1463@fozzy.UUCP> dvanslyk@aud.alcatel.com writes:
>Does anyone know of any good books on the subject of music
>copying (music notation rules)? 
>
>Don Van Slyke 
>dvanslyk@rdxsun78.aud.alcatel.com

I also swear by the Roemer text for hand copy.  But that text is more
for learning how to do it, and it doesn't cover engraving standards,
nor does it get into 20th Century stuff.  I more often (now that I've
learned *how* from the Roemer) turn to _Music Notation in the Twentieth
Century_ by Stone working as a copyist and/or consultant for music
related software.  It is IMHO *the* last word in copy standards (i.e.
how it's done).


-- 
David Cottle            CERL Sound Group                     
Software Consultant     103 S Mathews, Urbana, IL 61801
                        (217) 244-6686 Lime@uiuc.edu      
Ballo ergo sum.
Newsgroups: rec.music.compose
From: cwquak@cs.ruu.nl (Wilko Quak)
Subject: Re: Music Theory?
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 11:37:18 GMT
Organization: Utrecht University, Dept. of Computer Science

In <1993Jan7.161239.6379@gserv1.dl.ac.uk> w.purvis@daresbury.ac.uk (Bill Purvis, ext 3357) writes:

>David Cottle wrote:
>
>> There is a chapter on voice leading that you may want to skip.  We have
>> very heated debates about the validity of teaching voice leading here.
>> Some instructors never mention it (!).  I think it's still valid for
>> most styles today (particularly jazz), but it may not help you
>> *understand* most tonal systems.  It will just make you a better
>> composer/arranger.  
>
>I haven't come across the term `voice leading' before. Could someone give
>me a brief explanation?? 

To give a definition of voice leading is rather difficult.I can give an example:
If you do a four-part harmonization (That means Soprano, Alto, Tenor and Bass) then parallel fifths are prohibited.That is if you do the harmonization classically.So the four melody lines must be made (or lead) in such a way that parallel fifths are avoided.That is one aspect of voice leading.The other aspect is the form of the melody lines: can they be easily sung or played etc.

In Fux's book and in Jeppesen's "Vokalpolyfoni" there are numerous examples of this. Good voice leading is importanit if you want to do choir harmonizations or if you want to study counterpoint.
-- 
+----------------+----------------------------------------------------+
| Wilko Quak     | email: cwquak@cs.ruu.nl                            |
| Arnhemseweg 53 +----------------------------------------------------+
| 6711 GR  EDE   | I still haven't found what I'm looking for.        |
From: kunz@rpksun1.mach.uni-karlsruhe.de (Juergen Kunz)
Newsgroups: rec.music.compose
Subject: Computer System for composing
Date: 8 Jan 1993 13:45:29 GMT
Organization: Univerity of Karlsruhe (FRG)
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: nz11.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de
Keywords: Composing Software Hardware

Hi

this is my first contact with this newsgroup. I think it is the best forum to get
some information about computer systems (hard- and software) for composing.

A friend of mine, he is a professional musician, wants to buy a computer system,
which supports the composing process. It should be possible to input the data via
a keyboard, to reedit and layout it and to printout the score as well as the
single voices.

Does anybody have information about such a system or knows how to get the
information (there is yet no preference for a specific hardware platform).

Thanks a lot in advance

Juergen Kunz
Newsgroups: rec.music.compose
From: fields@zip.eecs.umich.edu (Matthew Fields)
Subject: Hi tech
Organization: University of Michigan EECS Dept., Ann Arbor, MI
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 13:58:09 GMT

Hello!

I just heard a recording of music composed in 1792 by F.J. Haydn for
a 17-pipe automatic organ built on a clock.  I know that George Houle has
devoted some energy to reconstructing technomusic that's 200 years earlier,
but just thought I'd mention that Papa H's sure is good.  However,
the recording I heard on the radio was not on the original barrel-controlled
organ, but rather on a new Bicentenial Commemorative Clock which is digitally
controled (although it plays on acoustical pipes), and comes with several
Haydn tunes in ROM, plus a slot in which to plug more ROM.

Newsgroups: rec.music.compose
From: fields@zip.eecs.umich.edu (Matthew Fields)
Subject: tonal/tone-row
Organization: University of Michigan EECS Dept., Ann Arbor, MI
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 15:34:43 GMT

Oh, when I mentioned "White Isle" (somebody out there have references?) by
Donald Martino, I didn't mention that it was a "tonal" piece for choir
"driven" by a tone row that shows how that technique is supposed to be
done---i.e. deliciously.

(I'm pretty sure it's published by DM's own publisher, Dalkon Music or
something...)

Newsgroups: rec.music.compose
From: cottle@cmp-rt.music.uiuc.edu (David M. Cottle)
Subject: Re: Music Theory?
Organization: University of Illinois School of Music
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 15:28:31 GMT

In article <1993Jan7.161239.6379@gserv1.dl.ac.uk> w.purvis@daresbury.ac.uk writes:
>
>I haven't come across the term `voice leading' before. Could someone give
>me a brief explanation?? 

I think the description Mathew Fields wrote is the best.  We would
always say that breaking partwriting rules obscured the individuallity
of the line, or made them less singable.  It's always very satisfying
to sing our assignments in class and have the basses consistently miss
a skip of an augmented second.  There really are reasons for the rules
(even in instrumental music; a violinist -- and they always deny this
-- will be more apt to get a line right if it's easy to sing.  i.e. if
you can sing it, you can play it).  Here are the rules we use (from
Turek, cited earlier, page 179):

1.	Keep all voices within their respective ranges.
2.	Avoid large melodic leaps, nondiatonic intervals, augmented
	seconds and fourths, and consecutive leaps in the same direction
	(except for arpeggiations).
3.	Use common doubling procedures [double the root mostly] when
	possible.
4.	Avoid doubling tendency tones.
5. 	Use homogeneous spacing, changing from open to close structure (or
	vica versa) for variety, to produce more fluent voice leading, or to
	keep the voices within their respective ranges.
6. 	Strive for independent contour (predominantly contrary and oblique
	motion) between the outer voices.
7. 	Resolve all tendency tones that appear in the outer voices.
8. 	Avoid consecutive perfect fifths, octaves, or unisons between the
	same two voices.  
9. 	Avoid voice crossing and overlap.


-- 
David Cottle            CERL Sound Group                     
Software Consultant     103 S Mathews, Urbana, IL 61801
                        (217) 244-6686 Lime@uiuc.edu      
Ballo ergo sum.
Newsgroups: rec.music.compose
From: downs@helios.nevada.edu (Lamont Downs)
Subject: Re: Finale IBM version 2.2 here!!!
Organization: UNLV
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 02:39:41 GMT


>If anyone hears anymore details, kindly drop me a note, or if you feel it's of
>public interest, post it :-)
>
My understanding from the README file in the CI$ download (I haven't 
installed the patch yet) is that Fin 2.2 will work with _any_ MIDI device 
installed in the Windows drivers section, not just the Sound Blaster. 
However, since I just picked up a SBPro I guess I'll never really know...

Lamont Downs
downs@helios.nevada.edu
Newsgroups: rec.music.compose
From: stanford@leland.Stanford.EDU (Scott Stanford)
Subject: Re: Music Theory?
Organization: none whatsoever
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 93 07:28:31 GMT

In article <shmengy> w.purvis@daresbury.ac.uk writes:

>I haven't come across the term `voice leading' before. Could someone give
>me a brief explanation?? 

VERY briefly, it is the way to make each voice in a piece of music
sound pretty good on its own.  That is, instead of just pounding
chords up and down on the piano, you listen to each "voice" (i.e. the
top note is one voice, the next voice down is the second voice, etc.)
and you make it so that it is its own melody and could exist without
any of the other voices and not sound awkward and jumpy.  This is
pretty much the purpose for voice leading - the way it is done is
through getting rid of // 5ths, including contrary motion, and other
methods mentioned on this newsgroup by people much more learned than
I.

Scott (sig stolen from this group - sorry)
-- 
Scott Stanford                 |)  Eenie meenie miney moe.
stanford@leland.stanford.edu  /|   Catch a tiger by the toe.
                             ((|,) If he hollers...yeah whatEVER.
"MORE Doctah Peppah!!"        ~|~  He's EATIN' your ass.  Run, you idiot.
Newsgroups: rec.music.compose
From: rmc@wang.com (rmc)
Subject: Re: Advances in composition
Organization: Wang Laboratories, Inc.
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 18:53:08 GMT
	<1iaav3INN2qa@calvin.usc.edu> <1993Jan5.131617.19134@zip.eecs.umich.edu>

fields@zip.eecs.umich.edu (Matthew Fields) (>) and
alves@calvin.usc.edu (William Alves) (>>) discuss what a row might be
compositionally: 

>>As far as Schoenberg, I would argue that he didn't usually intend for the
>>tone row to have the same kind of audibility as a fugue subject.
>
>Right.  The ROW is not comparable to a fugue subject but rather to a
>table compactly listing the ways in which, say, 3, 4, or 5 fugue subjects
>fit together as co-counterpoints.  It's not the theme, but a compact
>embodiment of a BUNCH of related themes, chords, and other things the composer
>likes, and THOSE things should be clearly audible at all times.

Hmm, i am just a student at composition, and not a terribly good
composer, but here's what i do with a row.  At the beginning, when i'm
thinking about what i want to do with the piece, i think about what
intervals i want to emphasize, and often a particular shape i want to
be able to reuse.  For example, i may want to open and close lines
with tritones, and use fourths as resting intervals within a line.
(This is actually a very common decision for me.)  And i may want to
use consecutive minor thirds, or consecutive minor seconds.  I then
try to build a set containing those elements.

This often means that one line or instrument won't use several of the
notes in the set, but that a different line will usually absorb them
instead.  For example, it is rather difficult to have a set that
handles consecutive fourths and minor seconds at the same time.  But
if you use one with descending fourths, with half steps between the
top notes, you can have one line use descending tones and another
using the supporting fourths to "harmonize" it.

Now that's of course an over simplification, since it would seem to
say that the whole piece is consecutive parallel fourths, which even i
might find a bit boring.  That's where using overlapping and
interlocking transpositions of sets comes in.  Say, use a second set
at a different transposition level, or maybe an inverse or whatever,
and also at a different rate of time in the "supporting" voice to give
it the variety you need.  

Needless to say, this often gets me into horrible jams where i end up
with a group of notes that seem not to fit and i just have to deal
with.  I warned you that i wasn't very experienced, and not very good.
But as i learn to "see ahead" more in the set operations, and as long
as i work with dense enough textures, i seem to be getting into fewer
and fewer jams.

R Mark Chilenskas
rmc@wang.com
From: silver.e@zooid.guild.org (Eric Silver)
Newsgroups: rec.music.compose
Subject: Re: Music Theory?
Date: 11 Jan 93 06:56:48 GMT

From: ferejohn@leland.Stanford.EDU (john ferejohn)
>There is a textbook called explorations which comes with a disk which has 
>exersizes in intervals and ear training.  I think there are sequels to
>it as well
>                                       -C
>

I have used David Baker's exercise tapes and books for ear training. I have
found that these tapes (if followed diligently) helped a great deal with
'focusing' my ear. I don't know if it was the fact that Baker uses a Sax
on the tapes which I can relate to on my tenor, or if its the methodical 
layout of the tape exercises and books. Perhaps, a combination of the two.
But, I am certain that using the tapes and books in his series has helped.

Eric Silver - York, Upper Canada.




Newsgroups: rec.music.compose
From: ferejohn@leland.Stanford.EDU (john ferejohn)
Subject: Re: Music Theory?
Keywords: Music, Text
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 93 23:48:43 GMT

There is a textbook called explorations which comes with a disk which has 
exersizes in intervals and ear training.  I think there are sequels to
it as well
                                       -C

Newsgroups: rec.music.compose
From: fields@zip.eecs.umich.edu (Matthew Fields)
Subject: Re: Music Theory?
Keywords: Music, Text
Organization: University of Michigan EECS Dept., Ann Arbor
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 21:06:50 GMT


Uh, yeah, guys, but does anyone out there have a programmed tutorial
on scales, modes, time signatures, etc.?  The original inquiry
was about the BASICS, so let's cover the BASIC BASICS before getting
to the plain ordinary basics.
From: lewis@oasys.dt.navy.mil (William Lewis)
Newsgroups: rec.music.compose
Subject: WANTED:MT-32/MPU-401
Date: 4 Jan 93 15:32:10 GMT
Reply-To: lewis@oasys.dt.navy.mil (William Lewis)
Organization: Carderock Division, NSWC, Bethesda, MD

The name says it all, I want to purchase a used MT-32 and MPU-401 by
Roland.

Please send all offers to:

lewis@oasys.dt.navy.mil

Thanks,
Bill
From: silver.e@zooid.guild.org (Eric Silver)
Newsgroups: rec.music.compose
Subject: Re: Music Copying
Date: 11 Jan 93 07:07:50 GMT

From: dvanslyk@aud.alcatel.com
>Does anyone know of any good books on the subject of music
>copying (music notation rules)? 
>
>Don Van Slyke 
>dvanslyk@rdxsun78.aud.alcatel.com

Unfortunately, I'm in the middle of moving and I've packed all of my 
books. One very good, tiny paper back I bought for $1.95 Cdn. was 
Notation Standards for Music. (I think.) It is about 30 pages long, has
a red paper cover and very thoroughly covers the topic of standard
notation for music. It was written by two authors, but I can't recall 
their names. Must be my old age! I most highly recommend it.

Eric Silver - York, Upper Canada.

 
Newsgroups: rec.music.compose
From: josh@Tekelec.gecko.uucp (Josh Barinstein)
Subject: Components of creativity
Originator: josh@reliant
Organization: Tekelec Inc
Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1993 20:26:46 GMT


Something has been intriguing me as of late in regards to the creative
process as a whole.  Not long ago -- as I'm sure will happen in waves
in this group -- creativity was discussed at length.  Each netter in-
volved in the discussion described his/her means of bringing out the
creative muses -- stimulate oneself in order to make the juices flow --
be it through various activities, experiences, etc.

Recently, two different schools of thought confronted one another in a
fierce battle:  the "composition cannot be taught" people against their
opponents.  A very rich discussion indeed, providing all of us with va-
luable insight into the two frames of mind (if they may be referred to
as such).

In any case, add to all this the occasional theory-related questions
posted to this goup and the proposed solutions provided by the more ex-
perienced composers.  (This brings to mind Matt's GEMS series).  So, you
ask, what's the point of summarizing what's known and obvious?

Well, I think of these as components.  What remains fascinating to me
at this point in time, given that I've only recently begun my music stu-
dies, is the interplay between them.  For those of you who have received
a formal education in music, at what point did the theory and "teachings"
in composition (if you belong to that school of thought) become second
nature?  Did this come from continuously puting these tools to use?  For
those with no formal background, when did individual research and expe-
rimentation transform into the fluent language of music through which
you could "speak" and produce you work?  I imagine a frustrated composer
whose knowledge is not realidy applicable and, inspired as he or she may
be, is unable to create; or, at least, is only occasionally successful.

Perhaps my questions are too loaded to be approached from a single angle.
Perhaps they have no universal answers and require time to resolve them-
selves in my own particular case.

Josh

-----
Josh Barinstein - josh@Tekelec.com

Newsgroups: rec.music.compose
From: josh@Tekelec.gecko.uucp (Josh Barinstein)
Subject: Basic basics tutorials
Originator: josh@reliant
Organization: Tekelec Inc
Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1993 19:09:04 GMT


> Uh, yeah, guys, but does anyone out there have a programmed tutorial
> on scales, modes, time signatures, etc.?  The original inquiry
> was about the BASICS, so let's cover the BASIC BASICS before getting
> to the plain ordinary basics.

I found this to be a good question.  Is there shareware (or the like)
available out there in the way of tutorials on the basic basics?  We
use some software at school -- I can only remember the programmer be-
ing something Whipple, anyone know what I'm talking about? -- and it's
been quite helpful.  It'd be great to have something I could use at
home whenever necessary.

Josh

-----
Josh Barinstein - josh@Tekelec.com

Newsgroups: rec.music.reviews,rec.music.misc