From: mam@jcnpc.cmhnet.org (Mike A. McAngus)
Subject: Re: Soul of the Republican Party
Organization: Homebrew Virtual Reality Labs
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1992 18:01:27 GMT

David L. Hanson (dlhanson@nap.amoco.com) wrote:
: In article <0JoBwB4w165w@unkaphaed.gbdata.com> popec@unkaphaed.gbdata.com (Wi
lliam C. Barwell) writes:
:
: >There aint any such clause.  However.   Thomas Jefferson and James
: >Madison were the fathers of the first amendment.  In a letter to a group
: >of Babtists, the Danbury Babtists, jefferson uses the phrase "Wall of
: >seperation".  He makes it very clear that there is to be a STRONG wall of
: >seperation between Church and State.
:
: The State he was talking about was the federal goverment, not state
: governments, as will shown below.

Even if your point is granted, the Fourteenth Amendment makes the U.S. 
Constitution the supreme law even in the States.

:
: >When Jefferson was president, one Rev. Millar, wrote to ask him to
: >institue an oficial day of prayer, which Jefferson refused.  Rev. Millar
: >then wrote again to ask him to institute an UNOFFICAL day of prayer,
: >which Jefferson pointedly refused.
:
: Are you sure what Miller was writing about?
: According to "The Myth of Separation" by David Barton, page 41:
:
: "Most people are suprised when they find that the Constitution does not
: contain the words 'separation of church and state.'

Many people I've talked to have been surprised that "God", "In God We Trust", 
"One Nation Under God", and "Life, Liberty and the Pusuit of Happiness" are 
also not contained in the Constitution.  This only shows that many people have 
not bothered to read the entire document.

:                                                     The common perception
: is that those words are the heart of the First Amendment and are included
: in it.  Since that phrase does not appear in the our Constitution, what is
: its origin?
:
: At the time of the Constitution, although the states encourage Christianity,
: no state allowed an exclusive state-sponsored denomination.  However,
: many citizens did recall accounts from earlier years when one denomination
: ruled over and oppressed all others.  Even though these past abused were
: not current history in 1802, the fear of a recurrences still lingered
: in some minds.
:
: It was in this context that the Danbury Baptist Association of Danbury,
: Connecticut, wrote to President Jefferson.  Although the statesman and
: patriots who framed the Constitution made it clear that no one Christian
: denomination would become the official denomination, the Baptists expressed
: their concern over a rumor that a particular denomination was soon to be
: recognized as the national denomination.  On January 1, 1802, President
: Jefferson responded to the Danbury Baptists in a letter. He calmed their
: fears by using the now infamous phrase to assure them that the federal
: government would notestablish any single denomination of Christianity as the
: national denomination:
:
:     I contemplate with solemn reverence that act of the whole American
:     people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law
:     respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free
:     exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separtion between Church
:     and State.
: ...
: The 'wall' was originally introduced as, and understood to be a
: one-directional wall protecting the church from the government.

Many Christians have made this statement to me, but none have been able to
support this contention.  What, in Jefferson's writings, states that this wall
is "a one-directional wall"?  I submit that such a concept would have been 
non-sense in the late 18th and early 19th centuries.

:                                                                 This was
: also Jefferson's understanding, as conveyed through statements he made
: concerning the First Amendment - statements now ignored by the Court:
:
:    Kentucky Resolutions of 1798: No power over the freedom of religion...
:    [is] delegated to the United States by the Constitution.
:
:    Second Inaugural Address, 1805: In matters of religion I have considered
:    that its free exercise is placed by the Constitution independent ofthe
:    powers of the General [federal government].
:
:    Letter to Samuel Miller, 1808:  I consider the government of the
:    United States as interdicted by the Constitution from intermeddling with
:    religions institutions, their doctrines, discipline, or exercises.  This
:    results not only from the provision that now law shall be made respecting
:    the establishment or free exercise of religion, but from that also which
:    reserves to the States powers not delegated to the United States [10th
:    amendment].  Certainly, no power to prescribe any religious excercise,
:    or to assume authority in religious discipline, has been delegated to
:    the General Government.  IT MUST THEN REST WITH THE STATES, as far
:    as it can be in any human authority.

And this sentiment is nullified by the Fourteenth Amendment so that, now, the
Constitutional restrictions that apply to the Federal Government also apply to
the States.

:
: Contrary to Jefferson's explanation of the intent, such power no longer
: rests with the states.  In 1947, in Everson v. Board of Educ., the Court
: reversed 150 years of established legal practice under the Constitution and
: decided that it did have the right to rule on an individual state's decisions
: regarding religious practice. Prior to that reversal, the Courts have left
: the decisions as Jefferson and all other Founders has planned it - 'rest[ing]
: with the states.'  State legislatures had been passing laws since the 1600's
: allowing the free exercise of religious practices in schools and public
: affairs: voluntary prayer, Bible reading, the use of the Ten Commandments,
: etc. These laws had been enacted 'with the consent of the governed' and
: through representatives elected 'of the people, by the people, and for
: the people'. "
:
: >  "I consider the government of the United States as interdicted by the
: >Constitution from meddlim=ng with reigous institutions, their doctrines,
: >discipline or exercises.  This rresults not only from the provision that
: >no law shall be made respecting the establishment, or free exercise of
: >religion,....
: >  But it is only proposed that I recommend not prescribe a day of fasting
: >and prayer.  That is, I should indirectly assume to the United States an
: >authority over religous exercises, which the Constitution has directly
: >precluded them from..."
:
: >You could imagine what Jefferson would say about prayer in public
: >schools, or Creches on government property, or what he would say about
: >the pious legeal frauds that declare such creches as 'secular' rather
: >than religous as some courts have done.
:
: Jefferson would have been perfectly happy with voluntary prayer in
: public schools.  You draw the wrong conclusions from his statement to
: Mr. Miller, because you left off the part where Jefferson says that
: powers to prescribe voluntary prayer 'rest with the States'.
:
: >Remember, Jefferson was one of the two men most responsible for there
: >being a first amandment, and actually wrote the final version of that
: >amendment.  HE definitly is the one person that knows what it meant and
: >how strongly it was to apply.
:
: Not true!  According to Barton's book:
:
: "Jefferson did NOT play a leading role either in the First Amendment or the
: Constitution; he had been in Paris.  In fact, during the Congressional
: debate, it was Fisher Ames of Massachusetts who proposed the wording of
: the First Amendment; and it was the conference committee of Senators Oliver
: Ellsworth, Charles Carroll, and William Paterson and Representatives Roger
: Sherman, John Vining, and James Madison which hammered out the final wording
: that the Congress subsequently approved and the states finally ratified.
: Jefferson was NOT present.
:
: Even though Jefferson did NOT participate in the framing of the First
: Amendment,..."
:
: The Court portrays Madison and Jefferson as being opposed en toto to
: permitting any religious influence on government or public affairs.
: However, such is not the case, as shown by Jefferson's actions"
:
:   While serving in the Virginia Assembly he ws the one who personally
:   introduced a resolution for a Day of Fasting and Prayer in 1774...
:   When he established the University of Virginia, he encouraged the
:   teaching of religion and set apart space in the Rotunda for chapel
:   services. He also praised the use of the local courthouse in his home
:   town for religious services.
:
: Actually, while President of the United States, Jefferson also became first
: president of the Washington, D.C. public school board, which used the
: Bible and Watt's Hymnal as reading texts in the classroom - well subsequent
: to the adoption of the First Amendment. According to Jefferson:
:
:   I have always said, and always will say, that the studious perusal of
:   the sacred volume will make us better citizens.
:   ...
:
: In his 'Notes on the State of Virginia', Jefferson declared:
:
:   And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed
:   their only firm basis,  a conviction in the minds of the people that these
:   liberties are of the gift of God?  That they are not to be violated but
:   with His wrath?  Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God
:   is just; that his justice cannot sleep forever."
:
: >If anything, the first amendment has definitely been stepped on by our
: >politicians in the last half century.  Putting in 'God we trust" on our
: >dollars....
:
: >We need to go back to following the Constitution, not subverting it for
: >the benifit of right winged evangelicals and the like.
:
: The first amendment has only been "stepped on" in this century by the
: enemies of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.  Liberals, both on and
: off of the Court, are rewriting history and fooling most of the people
: with their lies. They are doing this through their control of
: the public socialist [school] system which is a tool of the socialist
: left used to corrupt the minds of the youth of this country.

Talk about sweeping generalizations!  Up to this point I thought Mr. Hanson's
arguments were reasonable.  But here, at the end, he blows it by making ad
hominem arguments with no substance.
-- 
Mike McAngus 			 | As if I needed Another time consuming hobby.
(mam@jcnpc.cmhnet.org)		 | 
The Truth is still the Truth	 | This Post exploits illiterates.
Even if you choose to ignore it. |