HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: rbw3q@rayleigh.mech.Virginia.EDU (Brad Whitehurst)
Subject: Re: Ethics and Methods of Brush Clearing
Organization: University of Virginia
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 23:34:54 GMT

In article <34437@goofy.apple.COM> usenet@goofy.apple.COM (USENET Administrator) writes:
...[In response to modifying rivers...]
>Folks,
>
>I am offended and appalled by the idea of modifying a river to meet your
>desire for a better run. Where does this type of abuse stop? Do you clear 
>rivers of beavers who just happen to get in your way? Do you destroy
>natural
>logjams (Read "The Control Of Nature" by John McPhee - also wrote "Survival
>of
>the Birchbark Canoe." The Control Of Nature describes how a natural logjam
>was dynamited in the  mid 1800's to clear an easy passage between the
>Mississippi and the Atachafayla (sp?). That seemingly minor logjam was all
>that was keeping the mighty Mississippi in its channel and the
>environmental damage has been immense. I digress, sorry) because you in

	Another digression:  I remember reading an account in (I
think) American Heritage's science and technology magazine about a
titanic effort to clear a centuries-old logjam that ran for miles up
the Red River in Arkansas/Oklahoma (have I got my geography right?) to
open it for steamers.  There were apparently veritable forests growing
on the logs, and it took years to clear.  Anybody got any references
on the effort or its impacts?  
-- 

Brad Whitehurst    |   Aerospace Research Lab
rbw3q@Virginia.EDU |   We like it hot...and fast.
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
From: tmenten@boi.hp.com (Tom Menten)
Subject: Re: Paddl. in Alaska, B.C., Y.T.?
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 20:51:47 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard / Boise, Idaho
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1.4 PL6]

: sea and then perhaps along the shoreline. 
: Is this possible? What types of boats should I prefer / not take at
: all?

My brother has done the Tatsenshini several times; there are guided
trips on it now.  I believe it winds up on the Yukon, which you can take
to the Gulf of Ak.  That's a mountainous river with about class 4 rapids,
and very cold water.  There are reputedly many choices for hair rivers
in Alaska (which isn't as well known for kayaking as the Southeast of the
lower 48, for example, primarily because the ratio of rivers to boaters is much 
higher.) 

The popular Alaska books of some years ago mentioned other choices; I believe
that folks fly their boats in to do the Tanana, which goes forever (probably
into the Bering sea - my atlas is not handy, so I'm not sure of my facts
here.)   

The Alaska Peninsula has a lot of Sockeye Salmon rivers that are boatable.
The scenery is pretty mild.  There is wildlife, but no assurance that you'll
come across it (and you might be just as happy not to - one huge mama bear
charged our airplane as we flew over - probably took us for a pesky bird.)
These rivers would include large lakes to paddle through - a prerequisite 
for Sockeye.  The wildlife includes many bugs.

Other than the Tat' and Yukon, most of the long rivers are probably in the 
interior or the Alaska Peninsula - especially if you want to float to the 
coast.  Much of the Alakska coast around the gulf, for example, is lined by
large, glaciated mountains.
From: bagley@bagley.cc.vt.edu (Victor L. Bagley)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: Thoughts on a RESPONSE kayak
Date: 12 Jan 93 12:28:13 GMT

I am looking at buying a used RESPONSE kayak.  It is about 1.5 years old  
and seems to be in good shape.  Any experiences, likes and dislikes would  
be appreciated.
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
From: rhmartin@berger.fishkill.ibm.com ()
Subject: Re: FAQ and ohiopyle falls
Date: Mon, 04 Jan 93 20:46:23 GMT
Reply-To: rhmartin@berger.fishkill.ibm.com ()
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center
Keywords: canoe, kayak, raft, paddle, whitewater

In article <C0CD4v.K5y@fs7.ece.cmu.edu>, marquet@audi.ece.cmu.edu
(Marquet Anderson) writes:
> 
> Summary: to update the FAQ how about a more updated choice of unrunnable.
> ??Coming Home Sweet Jesus on the Lower Meadow?? run only at low water 
> and by few other than Dean Tomko.> 

IMHO Sweet Jesus in not a good example these days, I've talked to many folks
who have run it with no problem and even enjoyed the exp.  It's probaly safe
to say that it is a VI and leave the discussion of unrunnable to those at the
put-in.
From: gt4302c@prism.gatech.EDU (Axel Thomsen)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: Re: FAQ and ohiopyle falls
Keywords: canoe, kayak, raft, paddle, whitewater
Date: 7 Jan 93 15:38:24 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology

Why does every mentioning of the rating system cause a major discussion?
Because rating systems don't work above class 4. No matter what reforms are
proposed, we will never agree because everybody has a different attitude
toward taking risks, even the same person on different days.
Personally I feel that a slow downgrading of rapid-classifications will happen,
because paddling technique and equipment haws improved and .
My only classisfication above class 4 is a class 5 paddler, somebody who can
explore a river and make his own decisions, define for him or herself what's runnable
and what not.
What do we need a hairboating rating system for anyway? to brag with? to compare who
runs harder stuff?
Does it make a difference to anybody whether Ohiopyle Falls, Sweet Jesus, Gorilla
Marginal, Stairway to Heaven, Big Splat .... are fives or sixes? They have been
run, that is the only FACT, whether you do it or not does not depend on any rating system.

Axel
-- 
AXEL THOMSEN
Georgia Institute of Technology, POBox 34302, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
Internet: gt4302c@prism.gatech.edu
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
From: pt@geovision.gvc.com (Paul Tomblin)
Subject: Re: Ethics and Methods of Brush Clearing
Reply-To: pt@geovision.gvc.com
Organization: Not officially GeoVision Systems Inc., Ottawa, Ontario
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 19:43:48 GMT

tut@cairo.Eng.Sun.COM (Bill "Bill" Tuthill) writes:

>got me thinking.  With a little "trail" maintenance, this would be a
>really relaxing run, instead of a minor ballbuster.

Aren't there other relaxing runs around, without spoiling it for people who
like a challenge?

>What are the ethics of moving logs and clearing brush?  Do fish need
>the habitat under a logjam?  Can pruning a willow clump have adverse
>effects on riparian habitat?  How about moving a few rocks to create
>a clear kayak channel?

Fish often shelter under overhanging banks and sweepers.  Just ask a fly
fisherman.  They often spawn in rock-gardens.  Your messing around to change
a river to ``your'' standards could kill the fish population, as well as
ruin it for people who have different standards.

>Once a person had made the ethical decision to "maintain" a river,
>what are the best methods?  Is it better to carry a folding saw along

I'd say none of the above.

Leave the river alone.  If you don't like it, just leave it.

-- 
Paul Tomblin (pt@compass.gvc.com) I don't make or state policy for GeoVision.
Usenet, n:
An invention of the devil which abrogates some of the advantages of making
a disagreeable person keep his distance. -- Paraphrased from Ambrose Bierce.
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
From: kde@boi.hp.com (Keith Emmen)
Subject: Re: Ethics and Methods of Brush Clearing
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 22:03:46 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard / Boise, Idaho
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1scd1 PL4

You can add my voice to the chorus saying "Leave the river alone!"

If you want to play in a "safe and managed" environment, go find
a swimming pool.

Flames cheerfully ignored.

Keith Emmen
kde@hpdmd48.boi.hp.com
From: doc@wixer.cactus.org (John McClenny)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: Re: open boats .vs. kayaks
Date: 12 Jan 93 19:07:08 GMT
Organization: Real/Time Communications
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5

Kayaks and OC-1s are quite different beasts...

OC advantages :
Turning - OC-1 turn faster due to paddler leverage and boat design.
Safety  - OCs are not called "jump out boats" for nothing.
Lunch   - OC can carry more paddler and gear.
Fear    - OC are not as intimidating as kayaks.

OC disadvantages :
Large gaping hole -  the large gaping hole lets water in.
Going straight    -  The mark of an advanced open boater is the ability to
                     accelerate in a straight line.  Paddling mainly on one
                     side and going straight requires either corrective
                     strokes or switching sides.  This reduces max stroke
                     and max speed.

Kayak advantages:
Straight line acceleration and speed -
Relatively water-tight and self-righting :)
Lighter weight
More complex play moves are possible.

Kayak Disadvantages :
Hopelessly trapped in unsafe ( at any speed ) boat = (Seriously, possible
       entrapement is always a concern ).
More Difficult to turn
Harder to carry lunch.


People.... ( warning : major generalization ahead :)  )
People who start kayaking are in it for the WHITEWATER.  The thrill of
victory, the agony of the feet.  Many open boaters migrate from flatwater or
start as a family thing.  Not as adrenalin oriented as kayakers, with less
desire to challenge harder water - more interested in cruising than in
bruising.

However, the very best open boaters are as good as the best kayakers.
Check out Hell Hole on the Ocoee when the local big dog open boaters are out.
Booming enders pirouetting into flat landings.
Check out the 'Southern Fried Creekin' video to see open boats on knarly
water.
For me, kayaks are the boats I normally paddle, while open boats are what 
I paddle when I want a challenge on easy water.  Making all the moves on
the Nantahala is a challenge for me in an open boat.   In a kayak - NOT.
From: cdd@ucscb.UCSC.EDU (Zhengyu Xu)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: Re: Paddl. in Alaska, B.C., Y.T.?
Date: 5 Jan 1993 18:32:39 GMT
Organization: University of California; Santa Cruz
NNTP-Posting-Host: ucscb.ucsc.edu


In article <C0E1Mw.HJE@boi.hp.com> tmenten@boi.hp.com (Tom Menten) writes:
>I'm told that I've seriously altered Alaskan geography here.  I'm not 
>sure where I got the idea that the 'Tat flows into the Yukon, etc.

There's an article on running the Tat in the latest Sierra (magazine of the
Sierra Club)

[please do not reply to this borrowed account]

Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
From: bonn%asylum.cs.utah.edu@cs.utah.edu (John Bonn)
Subject: Info on boating Tatsenshini wanted
Date: 8 Jan 93 11:47:22 MST
Organization: University of Utah
Distribution: na


Does anyone know of any guidebooks or have additional 
information on running the Tatsenshini?  I'm interested 
in getting more information on running it.  All I know 
about it is what I've read in the recent postings and 
in the Sierra.

Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
From: barry@brain.b29.ingr.com (new user)
Subject: Re: open boats .vs. kayaks
Organization: Intergraph Corporation, Huntsville, AL.
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1993 04:26:05 GMT

|>     2)  An open boat hands roll?

Seen it, but only in a pool, and using the flip to gain momentum.
Marshall or Greg, you out there?

Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
From: damouth@wrc.xerox.com (David E. Damouth)
Subject: Re: Ethics and Methods of Brush Clearing
Reply-To: damouth@wrc.xerox.com
Organization: Xerox Webster Research Center
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 18:41:38 GMT

In article lkhqciINN1aq@exodus.Eng.Sun.COM, tut@cairo.Eng.Sun.COM (Bill "Bill" Tuthill) writes:
>What are the ethics of moving logs and clearing brush?  

A couple of years ago, our region (upstate NY) had a huge ice storm,
which toppled a great many trees and made most of our small streams
impassable.  A group of local paddlers started out with chain saws to
do some clearing on one of these streams, met some objections from
local landowners (homes with maintained yards running right to the
water, in some places). The town also raised objections, probably
because of liability worries, so the project was dropped and the stream
remained impassable through the season.  The town petitioned
(unsuccessfully) the Army Corps of Engineers to clear the stream.  (You
can imagine what they would do to it).  During the spring highwater,
the logjams trapped ice and caused the stream to flood, threatening the
homes of the people who had objected previously.  Suddenly they were
begging the paddlers to come help clear the logs.

I think that any clearing you do yourself is relatively minor compared
to the rearrangements caused by the water itself during floods.   The
key ethical problem may be in deciding how or whether to deal with the
owners of the adjacent land.  (If it is federal or state land, you
still have to figure out what the applicable land and water use
regulations really are).

Some of the canoe routes in the Florida Everglades were seriously
blocked by trees downed by Hurrican Andrew last year.  One outfitter
told me that the National Park Service had suggested to the guides and
outfitters that they should voluntarily help clear the canoe routes in
the interior of the Park.
  
---
/Dave
David E. Damouth
Xerox Webster Research Center
damouth@wrc.xerox.com
voice: 716-422-3186
fax: 716-265-7133


Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
From: tmenten@boi.hp.com (Tom Menten)
Subject: Re: Ethics and Methods of Brush Clearing
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 16:04:51 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard / Boise, Idaho
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1.4 PL6]

Bill Bill Tuthill (tut@cairo.Eng.Sun.COM) wrote:
: 
: What are the ethics of moving logs and clearing brush?  Do fish need
: the habitat under a logjam?  Can pruning a willow clump have adverse
: effects on riparian habitat?  How about moving a few rocks to create
: a clear kayak channel?

I suspect there are local and regional differences here.  In Idaho, it's
fair game to modify a river for

    1. road building
    2. logging
    3. placer mining
    4. dam building

and rarely for improving fish habitat, but not for river running.

Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
From: spangler@gn.ecn.purdue.edu (Christopher A. Spangler)
Subject: Re: open boats .vs. kayaks
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 93 15:47:31 GMT

In article <1993Jan11.234948.13462@spectrum.xerox.com>, damouth@wrc.xerox.com (David E. Damouth) writes:
> In article 13278@hemlock.cray.com, dsj@juniper12.cray.com (Douglas Jackson) writes:
> >I have heard that open boats can do everything
> >that a kayak can do.  I am a little skeptical.
> >
> >So, has anyone seen the following:
> >
> >    1)  An open boat pirouette?
> >
> >    2)  An open boat hands roll?
> >
> >    3)  An open boat make an upstream move
> >        where a similarly skilled kayaker
> 
 As for the question of ever seeing an open boat hand rolled, I have 
seen such an occurence.  Our club (Purdue University) has a Mohawk
that one of our members can hand roll in a pool.  Impressive thing to
see.

Chris


Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
From: bruceki@microsoft.com (Bruce King)
Subject: Re: Ethics and Methods of Brush Clearing
Date: 06 Jan 93 00:43:01 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corporation

  Recent studies in 
salmon streams have shown that logjams and strainers decrease the average
temperature of the water, leading to increased survival of salmon and
trout fry in the summer months, particularly in areas that have 
average air temperatures much greater than the average water temperature.  
  Brush on the sides of creeks, streams and rivers tends to decrease the 
amount of debris carried downstream; keeping the biomass in the same
general area as it was produced.  Debris tend to accumulate (and 
preserve) obstacles in the riverbed, forcing new channels to be cut.
(Logjams form at the head of islands, for instance, helping to preserve
the island).  

  This information is from a study done to determine the effect of logging
on streams and rivers, performed by the weyrhauser company of washington.
They were trying to determine if the current logging practice of removing
trees and other obstacles had any effect.  It does.  Clearing channels,
clearing brush or other improvements to the paddling environment would
seem to be the same sorts of changes that cause the areas to be less 
amenable to fish and wildlife and micro ecologies.  
  
  Brush at the edge of running water was also found to be a nesting area
for most types of birds with a higher survival rating than nests built 
above other areas, and to be irreplaceable as a nesting spot for aquatic
birds (loons, mergansers, coots, geese, etc) and for aquatic mammals 
(otters, beaver, seals of various sorts, muskrat) it's the preferred
living and breeding spot.  

-- 
	Bruce King                    uunet!microsoft!bruceki
        Unless otherwise stated, these are my views only.  
        Bill speaks for Microsoft.
From: bo304@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Erik Jul)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: Recommendations Sought: BWCA/Quetico Outfitters
Date: 5 Jan 1993 20:20:41 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


I'd like to hear from experienced BWCA/Quetico travellers
regarding top-notch outfitters on the U.S. side.

I've entered Quetico from the north, outfitted by Canoe Canada
out of Atikokan.  I'd like to get some suggestions for entering
the park from the south.

Your experiences/recommendations are welcome.

Thank you,

Erik
ekj@oclc.org
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
From: urquhart@galaxy.mpr.ca (Gord Urquhart)
Subject: Re: Info on boating Tatsenshini wanted
Organization: MPR Teltech Ltd., Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Distribution: na
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 93 21:03:19 GMT

The following information was taken from "Rivers of the Yukon" by 
Ken Madsen and Graham Wilson ISBN 0-88925-924-9. Definitely recommended if 
you are considering paddling in the Yukon.

Tatshenshini River - The Upper Canyon

	Rapids: Class III-IV

	Whitewater Note: This is a great whitewater trip for kayakers, 
	canoeists and rafters. At high flows, swims can be lo-o-ng. Spray
	decks are advisable for tandem canoes.

	Distance: 40 km.

	Duration: Day Trip

	Logistics: Drive 110 km. south of Haines Junction on the Haines road.
	About eight km. south of the Blanchard River crossing, a dirt road 
	winds west to the river. .... Takeout at Dalton Post. 

	Maps: 114 P Tatshenshini
	      115 A Dezadeash


Tatshenshini River - Dalton Post to Dry Bay
	
	Rapids: Class III

	Whitewater Note: This river seems best suited to kayaks or rafts
	If you canoe it, spray decks are recommended. Ridgid boats can be
	a hassle to fly out of Dry Bay.

	Distance: 215 km. (includes 90 km. on the Alsek)

	Duration: 10 days.

	Logistics: Put in at Dalton Post. Take out at Dry Bay, Alaska.

	Maps: 115 A Dezadeash
	      114 P Tatshenshini
	      114 O Yakutat

	"nowwhere else does an easily navigable river travers such spetacular 
	 mountain ranges. ... The Tat is widely know as a world class river 
	 trip."

	 "If you decide to canoe be forewarned. Several parties have reported
	 being less than thrilled with the big weird water and the potential 
	 for marathon swims on the Alsek portion."

_________________________________

	The maps  mentioned are the 1:250000 series and are available from
		Canada Map Office
		615 Booth Street 
		Ottawa Ontario
		Canada K1A 08E

----------------------------------
Gord Urquhart		
urquhart@mprgate.mpr.ca
MPR Teltech Ltd.
Bunaby B.C.
604-293-6146
-------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
From: dsj@juniper12.cray.com (Douglas Jackson)
Subject: open boats .vs. kayaks
Originator: dsj@juniper12
Organization: Cray Research, Inc.
Date: 8 Jan 93 15:39:27 CST



I think I want to start another discussion.

I have heard that open boats can do everything
that a kayak can do.  I am a little skeptical.

So, has anyone seen the following:

    1)  An open boat pirouette?

    2)  An open boat hands roll?

    3)  An open boat make an upstream move
        where a similarly skilled kayaker
        couldn't

When I am on the river such as the Ocoee, I see a
lot of kayakers in the play spots, but few canoers
agressively playing.  Open canoers tend to just get
one shot at a hole, and then end up on the
bank emptying out water from their boats (or bailing).
I thought about taking up open boating, but with
reduced mobility, emptying out water, achey (braky :))
knees, etc. I have given up on the idea.

I have noticed that when an open canoer gets an ender,
the paddlers cheer a lot louder than when a kayak does. :)

One guy on the french broad stated that an open
canoe or C1 could turn faster than a kayak.  I think
a racer in a Kayak might disagree...

-Doug
-- 


	-Doug
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
From: meyersd@cs.washington.edu (David Meyers)
Subject: Re: Paddl. in Alaska, B.C., Y.T.?
Organization: Computer Science & Engineering, U. of Washington, Seattle
Distribution: na
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 93 18:44:41 GMT

In article <C0E1Mw.HJE@boi.hp.com> tmenten@boi.hp.com (Tom Menten) writes:
>Tom Menten (tmenten@boi.hp.com) wrote:
>..
>: trips on it now.  I believe it winds up on the Yukon, which you can take
>: to the Gulf of Ak.  That's a mountainous river with about class 4 rapids,
>: and very cold water. 
>
>I'm told that I've seriously altered Alaskan geography here.  I'm not 
>sure where I got the idea that the 'Tat flows into the Yukon, etc.
>Perhaps a more informed person will reassemble this part of the state
>for us.
>
>-Tom Menten

I sent Tom as note indicating that it seemed very unlikely that the
Tatsenshini was a tributary of the Yukon, since the Tat empties into
the ocean in southeast Alaska, while the Yukon empties into the Bering
sea a bit south of Nome, quite a long ways away. He suggested that I
post this followup.

The headwaters of the two rivers (Yukon and Tatsenshini ...  hope I'm
spelling that correctly?) aren't that far apart, but are on opposite
sides of the divide formed by the coast range. The Tat empties into
the Gulf of Alaska, while the Yukon takes a much longer course through
the Yukon Territory (or is it a Province now??), then into Alaska
where it flows through the interior north of the Alaska Range and
south of the Brooks Range. It has been done by river steamers as far
upstream as Whitehorse YT. There is a rapid (Five Fingers) which was
notorious in the days of river steamer travel, but isn't anywhere near
class IV in difficulty. Running the Yukon is a summer-long trip in
anything lacking an outboard. We are talking at least a thousand
miles.  But whitewater it is not.

The Tat on the other hand, takes the short route to the sea, and has
unique hazards like glaciers which calve icebergs into the river. I
don't know much about its difficulty. The river is in danger of
developmental encraochment, due to (I think) a mining claim in the
area.

Dave Meyers
From: tut@cairo.Eng.Sun.COM (Bill "Bill" Tuthill)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: Re: What's up with the flow phone?
Date: 5 Jan 1993 19:21:12 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems Inc., Mountain View, CA
Distribution: ca
NNTP-Posting-Host: cairo

fhm@well.sf.ca.us (Frank Miles) writes:
> 
> Does anybody know what's wrong with the flow phone?
> Is there any other number to call to get CA river flow info?

The regular phlow fone must be broken.  Maybe it's just that
state employees haven't returned from extended holiday yet.
You know how guv'mint workers are.  :-)

Try calling the N Coast phlow fone, 707-443-9305.  They don't
go further south than the S Fork Eel at Leggett, but on the
plus side they do give numbers for Redwood creek, and the Mad
and Van Duzen "rivers".  Also, it's interesting to compare the
flow of various streams from the two sources.  Once we boated
Ten Mile creek when the coastal fone said 600 at Leggett, and
the regular phlow fone said 1100 (it was closer to 600).