HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: damiel@netcom.com (Paul Theodoropoulos)
Subject: Re: More Amiga OS weaknesses and strengths
X-Spook-Fodder: hero heroin tree shrub bush birth life death FBI CIA NSA
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 19:57:12 GMT

In <C0H2nt.BoE@news.iastate.edu> barrett@iastate.edu (Marc N. Barrett) writes:

>   The Amiga is a little younger than the Mac, but not much younger.  The
>Amiga is seven years old, the Mac is nine years old.  Seven years should be
>more than enough time for a system to have a highly polished GUI.  Especially
>when the Mac GUI was very highly polished by time it was two years old or
>so.  

seven years should be more than enough time for a system to have a highly 
polished multitasking OS. Especially when the Amiga multitasking  was very 
highly polished by the time it was two years old or so. if we're going to 
talk about the shortcomings of a platform, let's deal with all aspects of it.

i fail to understand why the mac has gone so long without proper multitasking.
i guess the engineers at apple are just dumb, or they spend too much time 
playing with the surface details of an OS that's broken, rather than dealing 
with the most significant shortcoming of the underlying system.

(marc will respond that i'm changing the subject, rather than having the 
 integrity to respond to the point at hand. anyone who has followed MB over
 the years knows that when someone points out facts to marc, he either falls
 completely silent [see the recent CD-ROM thread is .misc], or he starts 
 arguing about the way others are responding to him [see numerous responses 
 in this thread - "those are internal problems poking to the surface" - 
 yeah, right...])

>   There is no particular reason why the "power user" features of the Amiga
>have to be sacrificed to give the Amiga a GUI that can be used by someone 
>who knows little about computers.  And many of the features that make the
>Mac usable by "idiots" are quite nice to have even if you are an expert user.
>Some things, like a nice cut&paste system or an improved system for viewing
>the documentation of freely-distributed software, would be nice to have 
>because it saves work.

you really believe that the mac is significantly easier for a novice to use
than the amiga? balderdash. why not try a little empirical legwork Oh Great
Whining One. you've got an A3000 with Amax. grab some guy from one of your
classes who's never used either. have him play with the amax side and the
amiga side. NO COACHING. let him figure it out. then you might get a REAL
DATA POINT for your observations, rather than just spinning tales.

chances are your GUInea Pig will declare that they're about equally easy to
use.

unfortunately, i *very* seriously doubt that you'd have the integrity to not
bias your GUInea Pig in favor of the mac before the test started....

-- 
paul theodoropoulos     damiel@netcom.com     (hooools@well.sf.ca.us)

"Those who will trade essential liberty for promise of security will have
 neither" - Benjamin Franklin
From: Dale_Adams@gateway.qm.apple.com (Dale Adams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re:  Comdex/Quicktime released for the PC
Date: 6 Jan 93 19:52:15 GMT
Organization: Apple Computer Inc.

In article <C0G069.1EF@news.udel.edu> don@chopin.udel.edu (Donald R Lloyd) 
writes:
>      Be fair now... the classic and LC series (Performa also?) have those
> '030s running on 16 bit buses...

Very true (Performas [200 and 400] too).   Well, almost.  ROM accesses are 
32-bits wide, while everything else is 16-bits.

>      And does that Mac come with a keyboard? :-)

Actually, it does. ;-)  Unlike the midrange and high end machines from 
Apple, the bottom end machines come with keyboards and monitors (although 
the latter are small, built-in, and monochrome - the monochrome part is 
rumored to change shortly, however).

>      I'm sure we could argue about which machine is the better deal 
> until long after both are footnotes in computer history.
>      Let's not.

Sounds good to me.  Too much time is spent on these (i.e., "advocacy - 
Mac, Amiga, Windows, etc.) newsgroups in cutting down other computers, and 
too much bad information is propogated as a result. 

- Dale Adams
From: slhmz@cc.usu.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Dave and the return of the Groupie!
Date: 11 Jan 93 11:49:24 MDT
Organization: Utah State University


There was once a man named Dave,
who kept a dead hoar in his cave.
She was missing one tit,
and smelt quite a bit,
but think of the money he saved!

Sorry, it was on my head.  This has no reference to Commodore's Dave,
who _IS_ god, and will always be...

Bye!

--
Travis Carter

Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: torrie@cs.stanford.edu (Evan Torrie)
Subject: Re: RISC Amiga?
Originator: torrie@Xenon.Stanford.EDU
Organization: DSO, Stanford University
Date: 12 Jan 93 09:22:51 GMT

kodak@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Jason 'KodaK' Balicki) writes:

>Would it be possible to run 68k machine code ALONG WITH native apps
>(relative to the processor)?  What I'm asking is: when you go into
>"emulation mode" in a RISC processor are you locked in it, or can
>you run different modes at will?

  Well, emulation mode on a RISC processor means software emulation.
The processor doesn't have a mode switch where it switches to different
hardware to run 68K code; it's just a software program running in native
RISC code which examines binary 68K data and emulates it.
  Hence, there is no problem running 68K programs alongside native apps.
At least, this is how SoftPC runs 8086 code in a window on workstations, 
while native workstation apps run alongside.

-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Evan Torrie.  Stanford University, Class of 199?       torrie@cs.stanford.edu 
Embrace rationalism, reject superstition.           Break away from the past.
"...there is only one thing worse than having marketing people on a project,
 and that is having no marketing people on a project."  - Larry Tesler.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: The Mac is not ideal (was Re: Amiga OS weaknesses and strengths)
From: wiesmann@uni2a.unige.ch
Date: 6 Jan 93 15:57:00 +0200
 <1i896tINN224@uwm.edu> <C0BJCq.MK9@news.iastate.edu> <58226@dime.cs.umass.edu>
Organization: University of Geneva, Switzerland



> 
> 	First, let's talk about the joke Apple calls "multitasking."  I had
> assumed that this means "the ability to run multiple programs
> simultaneously," but obviously I was wrong.  The Mac has all these silly
> exceptions when you can and can't multitask.  First, there's the famous
> example that all other work is inaccessible whenever a dialog box is visible.
> On the Amiga, when a system requester pops up, you are free to ignore it and
> continue working until you want to respond to it.  This is a great
> advantage, in my opinion.  I can't say how many times I've gotten a "Disk is
> full" system requester, ignored it, deleted some files, and clicked "Retry"
> to keep going.

The reason is rather simple, the Mac wasn't build to BE multitasking, multi-
finder came years after the orginal Mac. 
 
> 
> 	Next, there's this weird distinction between DA's and normal
> applications.  If you have a multitasking system, what's the point of DA's?
>
The need for DAs is historical, they were needed in the old time where
multitasking did not exist or was optionnal, under syst 7 DAs are condidered 
as Applications 
 
> 	Finally, I'd like to see a way to abort a program after you have
> double-clicked on its icon to launch it, but before the program actually
> runs.  Neither the Amiga nor the Mac allows this, to my knowledge.
> 

There's a way I'd call it dirty but there is a way, under Mac OS you can "kill"
a application, either by typing esc-command-option (this only works under sys7)
or by pressing the debugger key, and typing ES (Exit to Shell) in MacsBug.

I don't really know if such a thing could be done on a Amiga thetrouble would
be having the memory back as it is not in one continous block but scattered 
thru the memory (I is more economical, but a crashing apllication can destroy
other processes and its memory can not be recalled)


> 	The Amiga needs work, yes.  So does the Mac, OS/2, Windows, and the
> $30,000 SPARCstation 10 in my office.

Agreed 

> Based on my experience with both
> Amigas and Macs, I'd take an Amiga anyday.
> 
There's a Amiga and a Mac at Home...
I work with the Mac
I play with the Amiga

*****************************************************************************
Millions of lemmings cannot be wrong...
					throw yourself off a clif...

Wiesmann@uni2a.unige.ch
*****************************************************************************
From: bloc1469@ee.ee.uwm.edu (Gregory R Block)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: CBM mention on 12/11/92 Computer Chronicles
Date: 13 Jan 1993 00:17:45 GMT
Organization: Electrical Engineering Dept. University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.89.2.33

In article <38490@cbmvax.commodore.com> andy@cbmvax.commodore.com (Andy Finkel) writes:
>For example, if I wanted to demonstrate that Windows 3.1 used MSDOS,
>I could cite "Windows 3.1 Insider - Weiskamp", "Programmer's Intro
>to Windows 3.1",  The Waite Group's "Windows Programming Primer Plus",
>"Windows API Bible" or "Writing Window's Device Drivers - Norton", among
>others.  

Just purely as a curiosity, why, why, why do you have and have you
read all of those books on Windows programming?  I could perhaps see
it from the point of view of simply wanting to know how it works, to
view its merits as another OE or something, but I just can't see it
being any fun.  :)

Greg


--
(: (: (: (: Have you overdosed on smileys today?  Why NOT!?! :) :) :) :)
(: "Our father, who art in Iowa, Hollow be thy head, Thy ideas run    :)
(:  Thy will be done, At Commodore as it is at Apple"  -Dan Barrett   :)
(: (: (: (: (: (: (: (: (: (: (: (: () :) :) :) Wubba, the Dark Angel :)
From: etxpihl@eua.ericsson.se (Tomas Pihl)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: HELP--AMIGA OR IBM PC CLONE?
Date: 12 Jan 93 06:14:21 GMT
Reply-To: etxpihl@eua.ericsson.se
Organization: Ellemtel Telecom Systems Labs, Stockholm, Sweden

In article C8F@cs.mcgill.ca, rengang@cs.mcgill.ca (Rengang YANG) writes:
> In article <1993Jan10.220842.23518@ra.msstate.edu> skip@tacky.cs.olemiss.edu (Skip Sauls) writes:

>    Bull shit? I still rememberr making many many modification with an
>    editor called 'az' to edit startup-sequence, which is basically
>    AUTOEXEC.BAT with much less restriction. I don't know if things have
>    improved now, but in those days(which is not long ago), not many
>    programs came with HD installer, or very poor at doing it. So I had
>    to copy them manually, and assign the FD label to some XXXX:. I found
>    many novice users couldn't handle this.

Today, almost all programs comes with a very nice installer which all programs
use. It's localized and you have online help in it to guide you through all
steps in the installation. You can choose the degree of your knowledge (confirm
all steps, automatic/auto installation etc.) in the beginning of the installation.
I find this program very useful and since almost all programs use it, it's easy
to use once you've used it once.

The "copy"-method you describe can for sure be a bit difficult for novice users,
but you have to remember that most Amiga programs aren't built up with 5,000
files as most of the PC programs are. It's just a straight-forward drag-and-drop
of one executable and perhaps an assignment or an env-variable that has to be set.
Or, if the program is smart, it will assign itself to the directory it is started
from.
Even my sister (11 years old) installed DPaint IV on her A600HD with just me telling
her she had to copy the DPaint-font to her fonts: library.

> >Skip Sauls, Amiga Advocate
> >skip@tacky.cs.olemiss.edu
> >
> 
> -TG
> 
________________________________________
/ Tomas Pihl
/ ELLEMTEL Telecom Systems Lab, Sweden
/ email:   etxpihl@eua.ericsson.se
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: das9674@ucs.usl.edu (Stephenson Daniel A)
Subject: Re: An Amigan does it *again* Re: clone prices & doom & gloom
Organization: Univ. of Southwestern La., Lafayette
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 21:22:17 GMT

In article <2120@vall.dsv.su.se> matt-dah@dsv.su.se (Mattias Dahlberg) writes:
>Stephenson Daniel A (das9674@ucs.usl.edu) wrote:
>
>: and I am supposedly not have fun with it on my Incredibly Boring
>: Machine?
>
>Well, how fun is it to program a PC? Not a blast I can tell you,
>especially not when it comes to moving graphics...

Hey, I just buy'em and play'em. You know: Ultima Underworld, Falcon 3.0, etc.
8)

And my $$$ is what gets people to not have a blast programming for my PC.

>=  Mattias  =  matt-dah@dsv.su.se  =  I love it.        =
-- 
Dan Stephenson   das9674@usl.edu 
"Even inferior PC demos seem to require more RAM than demos for the Amiga 500"
						-John Bickers
"You're probably right.  The Amiga OWNS the demo market." -Jerry Shekhel
From: mbrown@legend.akron.oh.us (MARK BROWN)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: PRICE
Reply-To: mbrown@legend.akron.oh.us
X-Software: Legend (216-825-2747) UUCPShell v4.9/med20Dec92
X-Disclaimer: Opinions of users do not necessarily reflect those of managment
Date: 6 Jan 93 18:33:21 EST
Organization: The Legend BBS Public Access (216)825-2747

Well the A600 with 40 meg HD and 2 megs(or 1.5, I forget the HD 
package detials, so forgive me) is less than $600( around $540 to $550 
I think.) Is apple Still putting the 32 bit 68K machines on a 16 bit 
Memory/data bus? That will make a performance difference(I don't know 
if they have stopped doing that or not.) One Of the Nice things( I at 
least Think so) is the PCMCIA slots the A600 and A1200 is using(Group 
2 standard).
     Mark

Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: barrett@iastate.edu (Marc N. Barrett)
Subject: Re: More Amiga OS weaknesses and strengths
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, IA
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 07:05:13 GMT

In article <1993Jan7.234309.3925@usage.csd.unsw.OZ.AU> trevore@vast.unsw.edu.au (Trevor Elbourne (Supr. Hell) BE) writes:
>: For example, I would like to have an Amiga word processor with
>: lots of structured fonts and which can import IFF DR2D or EPSF
>: structured clip-art.  But even collectively, none of the Amiga word
>: processors supply these features.
>
>  Pagestream 2.1 has all of these features!

   PageStream is not a word processor.  It's like using an ax to pound a nail.
You can do it, but it isn't as elegant or as easy.  For example, PageStream
lacks MS Word's advanced outlining features.  PageStream also lacks MS Word's
mini typesetting language.  There are a host of word processing features that
PageStream lacks because PageStream is not a word processor.

---
| Marc Barrett -MB-  |  email: barrett@iastate.edu
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"No, I just think that a computer grafted on top of another computer
is a kludge.  It has nothing to do with the AGA chipset." -- me


Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: jerry@msi.com (Jerry Shekhel)
Subject: Re: CBM mention on 12/11/92 Computer Chronicles
Organization: Molecular Simulations, Inc.
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 15:19:33 GMT
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8]
X-Posted-From: hemi.msi.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

Jack Radigan (jprad@faatcrl.faa.gov) wrote:
:
:   Think about it, if you're using overlays smartly you're going to group 
: common sections of code into each overlay segment, it's definately going
: to be less of a burden on a VM manager as well since it's going to be dealing
: with a net smaller code segment at any given time.
:

I strongly disagree with this.  With overlays, you're going to force your
program to swap even if you have 2GB RAM.  VM discards/swaps out code/data
based on a usage basis, which I think works much better than overlays.

:   -jack-
--
+-------------------+----------------------------+---------------------------+
| JERRY J. SHEKHEL  | Molecular Simulations Inc. | Time just fades the pages |
| Drummers do it... |     Burlington, MA USA     | in my book of memories.   |
|    ... In rhythm! |        jerry@msi.com       |         -- Guns N' Roses  |
+-------------------+----------------------------+---------------------------+
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: rayhann@mundil.cs.mu.OZ.AU (Rayhann CHEE)
Subject: Re: clone prices & doom & gloom
Organization: Department of Computer Sci, University of Melbourne
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 09:35:04 GMT

In article <1993Jan3.185526.14646@samba.oit.unc.edu> John.Carver@launchpad.unc.edu (John Carver) writes:
>
>I just saw, at a major computer store, a 486/33 machine from a major clone
>vendor advertized for $999.  This $999 price *inluded* a 15 inch monitor,
>SVGA graphics in 1024x768x8, and a 2400 modem.
>
>Alas I think there is no way Commodore can compete with that.  Even
as for the 486 it might make a good door stop...

>though Commodore clearly has a better, more powerful system, quality
Actually I use a 486-50DX2 at work with 16M Ram, and running Windows 3.1 is
a joke... gah... the response from my stock A500 is much better.. though it
would be nice to have a decent screen saver for the amiga that does not take
up too much of my ram..

Oh welll....

Ray
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: barrett@iastate.edu (Marc N. Barrett)
Subject: Re: More Amiga OS weaknesses and strengths
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, IA
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 20:37:36 GMT

In article <1993Jan6.130602.23239@mpifr-bonn.mpg.de> mlelstv@specklec.mpifr-bonn.mpg.de (Michael van Elst) writes:
>In <C0F5z7.A7A@news.iastate.edu> barrett@iastate.edu (Marc N. Barrett) writes:
>>   TeachText is mainly a document viewer.  If you want to compose a document
>>with graphics, use a word processor.
>
>Then don't praise it as a tool everyone needs to view documentation with
>text _and_ graphics.

   Why not?  TeachText is an excellent viewer for documents that include text
and graphics.  If you want to compose such documents, TeachText has some very
limited facilities to do so, but you should use a word processor to compose
such documents instead.  That's all I'm saying.  TeachText is a viewer, not a
composer.  

> The Amiga had two different tools for this and now
>you can use MultiView for the same effect (except that it supports arbitrary
>data, where does Teachtext has its hypertext ?).

   HyperCard is a far better tool than MultiView for hypertext.  And both 
HyperCard and TeachText come with the OS; one for interactive uses, and the
other for static documents.

   BTW, is MultiView a complete authoring system?  HyperCard 2.0 is.

   Can use have a single integrated file with both text and graphics (with the
text as text, in a system font, and not as bitmapped data in a graphic image),
and be able to drop this file on MultiView to view it?  I ask this because
TeachText files are single files, while it would seem to me that the text and
graphic portions of files for MultiView would have to be in seperate files,
making them a little more kludgy.  I don't know much about MultiView and how
it uses datatypes, alas.

---
| Marc Barrett -MB-  |  email: barrett@iastate.edu
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"No, I just think that a computer grafted on top of another computer
is a kludge.  It has nothing to do with the AGA chipset." -- me
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: dtaylor@garnet.acns.fsu.edu (Douglas Taylor)
Subject: Re: RISC Amiga?
Organization: Florida State University
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 93 17:14:41 GMT

In article <C0qstz.7CD@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu> papresco@cantor.math.uwaterloo.ca (Paul Prescod) writes:
>
>So if I want a 68060 based computer, I can buy a A4000 for $2500.00,
>throw out the 68040, and put in the 68060...good plan!

 Gee, this is the TOTALLY wrong way to do it - instead, we should have to throw
	out the entire motherboard, right?  "Just like IBM..."  Where would I 
	be without IBM?

>
>How long was the 68060 out before a stock Amiga supported it?
>
i
 Look everybody - they are training metaphysical GURUs!  He keeps referring to
	future products in the past tense... this is two posts in a row that
	refer to the 68060 as already having been out... interesting.

/============================================================================\
| L. Douglas Taylor InterNet: dtaylor@garnet.acns.fsu.edu |    IMPORTANT:    |
|=========================================================|   This message   |
| Guildenstern: We cross our bridges when we come to them | has cost the Net |
|   and burn them behind us, with nothing to show for our | hundreds, if not |
|   progress except a memory of the smell of smoke, and a |    thousands,    |
|   presumption that once our eyes watered...             |    of dollars    |
|                                                         |     to send.     |
\============================================================================/

Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: don@chopin.udel.edu (Donald R Lloyd)
Subject: Re: RISC Amiga?
Organization: University of Delaware
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 21:29:49 GMT

 papresco@cantor.math.uwaterloo.ca (Paul Prescod) writes:
>
>So if I want a 68060 based computer, I can buy a A4000 for $2500.00,
>throw out the 68040, and put in the 68060...good plan!

     No, you wait for the '060 to ship in a year or two, then you buy the 
new Amiga 6000 (or whatever).  However, for those folks who own 4000-class
machines, they'll be able to unplug (and sell) the '040 module and buy an
'060 module to put in its place.

>How long was the 68060 out before a stock Amiga supported it?

     Gee, I dunno... how long was the Pentium out before a stock PC 
supported it?

     (For the clueless... neither chip is shipping yet).


-- 
Don Lloyd           | Publications Editor, AmigaNetwork |AmigaNetwork Voice Mail
don@chopin.udel.edu | AmigaNetwork BBS (The Original!)  | Info by voice or FAX
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Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: papo@pyuxf.uucp (25241-anaya)
Subject: Re: Make WorkBench A WORK Bench!!!
Organization: Bellcore, Livingston, NJ
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 93 01:38:18 GMT

In article <1993Jan12.163046.62661@cc.usu.edu> slhmz@cc.usu.edu writes:
>>>	The only program I am impressed with to date is Final Copy II, since
[glup]
>>>screen and rescaling, I learn to appreciate having a multi-tasking system.
...

>>      Personally I'd rather have the screens, but for those who _like_ a 
[glup]
>> Art Expression, ProCalc (I _think_...), and one or two others.
>
>  Here Here!  I also like the screens *much* better.  If you enjoy multitasking
>  10 programs at once on you A3k, just wait till you try to do it all on
>  one screen.  It is literally HELL! 
>  
>  That's one reason why I *HATE* windows!
>
>--
>FAith Gibson
> 
>> -- 
>> Don Lloyd           | Publications Editor, AmigaNetwork |AmigaNetwork Voice Mail

Hey, beauty depends on the eye of the beholder!

I rather have programs that let me choose between a separate screen or the 
Workbench.  As long good utility applications provide that option I really 
do not mind.
If I'm going  to be working with something I  rather have all the things 
that I'm going to use in one screen than 
flipping around from one to the other.  That's why I like to use a 
Mac for publishing than the Amiga.  Still, it is a matter of personal choice.

Cheers,
 

Luis Roberto Anaya-Rivera         papo@pyuxf.cc.bellcore.com
-----
AWSDA member since 1992.  "You have the absolute right to defend yourself".
A true PL/1 hacker. DCL 1 CLASS BASED (THIS), 3 MEMBER_FUN ENTRY;
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy