HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: alt.callahans

In alt.callahans, Thomas A. Gryn <TAG2@psuvm.psu.edu> writes:

> Deepvoice says, "Ah, this is why I brought up the concept of "natural rights"
> in my original piece. I would say that the right to life is inalienable
> based on the fact that every civilization has had some
> form of law or edict against murder of members of one's own group; this is
> backed up by translations of the laws and codes recorded in some of the
> earliest writings of humanity. If someone can come up with a civilization
> which said "it's ok to indiscriminately kill other members of your group", I'd
> love to hear it. A conclusion one can draw from this is that there is perhaps
> more than just the social contract at work here.

Consider the Samurai code of Japan.  They were allowed to kill commoners
for little or no reason.  Now you may say that commoners and Samurai
were of different groups, but that is splitting hairs.

> 
> Also, the separation of church and state is a fairly recent phonomenon as far
> as state-forming goes. Whether it's right or wrong is, alas, a moral question.

This is not the case.  The beginning of the state as the state is known
was an automatic stuggle against and displacement of the church as
the secular authority.  The church, as an authority in the dark ages
and middle ages did not constitute a satate as states are known today,
although I suppose it had similarities.

> 
> And out of curiosity, how can a "right" be outside jurisdiction of humanity?

I think it can be outside the jurisdiction of humanity for people who
believe their is a god.

doug
From: ml5a+@andrew.cmu.edu (Mark Beirne Lively)
Newsgroups: alt.callahans
Subject: Re: Bear's story
Date: 15 Apr 92 03:47:36 GMT
Organization: Freshman, Mechanical Engineering, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA

>did bring tears to my eyes and started a horrible rage inside of me. 
My vision
>turned red, actions slowed down around me, I could feel adrenaline kick in and
>I lost control of all rational thought except as far as it pertained to
>violence.  There was nothing Ron could do at this point, I vented all of my
>fury at anger at him through my fists.  As I said, I was a tall kid, not
>especially large, but I did have more mass behind me.  I don't know where I
>learned to fight like that, but it all came out.  There was a flurry of fists
>on the rec yard, and then one kid down on the ground.  Even after I got him
>down, I couldn't stop there.  I had lost total control and still had this red
>haze over my eyes.  Seeing Ron on the ground, I started kicking him.  As I
>said, I did play a lot of football, and went cycling every weekend for
about 50
>miles so I had some highly developed legs.  When a teacher finally pulled me
>away, Ron was just laying on the ground crying and twitching."

Been on both sides of that.  Niether side is any fun.

>	Mike, give me a mead, and whatever Bear wants.  Galadin collects the

Whiskey please.

>drinks, walks over to the piano and hands Bear his.  "I know you didn't want
>any sympathy Bear, but I hope that empathy is okay."  Galadin gives
Bear a hug,
>"OH, and thanks for your post, I would probably have never said this if it had
>not been for you."  He then drinks his mead, walks over to the chalk line, and
>fires the glass into the flames.  "To attentive ears, how medicinal they be."
>With that, Galadin walks back out to the picnic so that he can get his smile
>back and forget for a while again what had happened.
 
Bear downs the bitter stuff and tosses his glass in to.  "I am glad I
could.  help.  empathy is okay, sympathy is okay.  Pity is not.  I am
who I am for why I am, and that is all that matters"

"Mankind's primary responsibility consists of saying 'Go to Hell!' to
whomever they feel like and whenever they feel like."
Bear aka the Lord High Rulebender aka (ml5a@andrew.cmu.edu)
Newsgroups: alt.callahans
From: mar@physics.su.OZ.AU (David Mar)
Subject: Re: steel bars
Organization: School of Physics, University of Sydney, Australia
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1992 07:22:29 GMT

> [Michael the dark elf:]
>		And at the edge of hearing comes a pun:
>			"Steel bars do not a prism make."
>	
>		Not bad, but not the sort of pun the elf would Bragg
>	about.

"Uugh..." Danger Mouse winces and throws a handful of peanuts at Michael.

"Please. You're grating on my nerves."

- Danger Mouse.
Newsgroups: alt.callahans
From: allbery@NCoast.ORG (Brandon S. Allbery KF8NH)
Subject: Re: Natural Science, Natural Religion (was Re: Thoughts on Biblical...)
Reply-To: allbery@ncoast.org (Brandon S. Allbery KF8NH)
Organization: North Coast Public Access *NIX, Cleveland, OH
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1992 23:06:09 GMT
Followup-To: alt.callahans

As quoted from <1992Apr3.001647.10554@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu> by dapetersen@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu (Toothpick (-:)):
+---------------
| >>P'relan speaks one more time, "One more point.  You might think the idea
| >>of God as the universe strange and wonder how such a being made of
| >>planets, stars, space, people, everything could have consciousness.
| >>Think upon the idea of how YOU have consciousness, a being made up of
| >>trillions of cells of many different types organized into veins,
| >>arteries, muscles, organs.  And you consist of more than that - the E.
| >>Coli in your gut that help you digest are part of you as are the
| >>mitochondria in your cells which may have been a different creature than
| >>joined with the early unicellular forms billions of years ago.  And yes
| >>I think that you think you're conscious and I, for one, would have had
| >>serious doubts about such a strange creature made up of all those
| >>diverse parts being conscious had I not been one myself..."
| 
| > 	"Finally I get to use this soapbox!  I don't like the idea that
| > God is merely the sum of all there is.  It eliminates the hope that
| > there's an ideal out there to strive for.  But we're more than just a
| > bunch of cells, and I think God's more than just a Universe and a bunch
| > of physical laws.  
| 
| Toothpick nods emphatically. "I was thinking about this this week.  And I
| wondered why it was that I felt so strongly that we are more than the sum of
| our parts, so to speak.  I wonder if it's because we as a race are capable of
| conceiving of intangible, abstract ideas - love, beauty, and so forth.  Perhaps
| that's why the idea of consisting only of tangibles is counter-intuitive, at 
| least to me."
+---------------

Ah, but the point is --- *we* are made of tangibles.  And yet there is more to
us than those tangibles.  If you take the *body* of God (or Whoever) to be the
Universe, why assume that God is nothing more than that when we *are*?

I grant that scientists are busy trying to track down the physical seat of
e.g. artistic expression.  I personally doubt they'll find a chunk of "art
neurons", or an "artistic electrochemistry", etc.  And we *still* haven't the
faintest idea of where the fundamental attribute of *life* comes from:  there
are too many oddball cases, like spontaneously assembling viruses.  (Carl
Sagan would simply assert that there is a purely physical explanation.
Personally, I consider that as great a leap of faith as that required to
believe in a god or gods, ergo not the answer he claims it is.)

++Brandon




-- 
Brandon S. Allbery, KF8NH [44.70.4.88]        allbery@NCoast.ORG
Senior Programmer, Telotech, Inc. (if I may call myself that...)
From: seawasp+@pitt.edu (Ryk E Spoor)
Newsgroups: alt.callahans
Subject: Re: Becoming a murderer
Date: 15 Apr 92 22:40:05 GMT
Organization: University of Pittsburgh

In article <1992Apr15.184806.6821@cello.hpl.hp.com> renglish@cello.hpl.hp.com (Bob English) writes:
>"At 12:01 AM on April 21, I will become a murderer.  The State of
>California, acting in my name and in my behalf, will strap Robert Alton
>Harris into a chair and drop cyanide tablets into a pail of acid, ending
>his life.  I do not condone his acts, but neither do I wish for his

	The Sea Wasp shrugs. "Sorry you feel THAT way. I don't see myself 
as a murderer if the state does things in ITS name that I don't approve of.
After all, I don't call myself a thief simply because, in addition to being
taxed, the state also taxes other people in my name.
	"I'm not a murderer unless I throw the switch, or directly, with
intent, cause it to be thrown. Maybe you could stretch the definition to
include those 80% out there, but not you.
	"Now... I'd cheerfully throw the switch on Dahmer or Manson. Since
I don't know exactly what Harris did, I reserve judgement on whether I'd
go along with his execution. As my prior post on the Death Penalty makes
pretty clear, my standards for it are much more stringent than those of
most laws..."

                                 Sea Wasp
                                   /^\
                                   ;;;
From: erikred@ocf.berkeley.edu (Erik Nielsen)
Newsgroups: alt.callahans
Subject: Re: Dr. Asimov
Keywords: Death, Renescance Men, etc.
Date: 7 Apr 92 20:16:58 GMT
Article-I.D.: agate.rsvvqINNcs0
Distribution: world,local
Organization: U.C. Berkeley Open Computing Facility
NNTP-Posting-Host: avalanche.berkeley.edu

In article <1992Apr7.043823.9961@midway.uchicago.edu> moh2@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>"Asimov, Clarke, Heinlein, Roddenberry, Seuss, Jim Henson...I feel as if
>my childhood was dying before me..."

Aye, that.  Although for me it started to pass away with Peter Sellers.
Sigh.  To all writers and entertainers, who give us release from the
oppression of everyday life.


	Be' Find, will you come with me
	to a wondrous land where there is music?
	Hair is like the blooming primrose there;
	smooth bodies are the color of snow.

	There, there is neither mine nor yours;
	bright are teeth, dark are brows.
	A delight to the eye the number of our hosts,
	the color of foxglove every cheek.

	The colour of the plain-pink every neck,
	a delight to the eye blackbirds' eggs;
	though fair to the eye Mag Fa'il,
	it is a desert next to Mag Ma'r

	Intoxicating the ale of Inis Fa'il;
	more intoxicating by far that of Ti'r Ma'r.
	A wonderful land that I describe:
	youth does not precede age.

	Warm, sweet streams throughout the land,
	your choice of mead or wine.
	A distinguished people, without blemish,
	conceived without sin or crime.

	We see everyone everywhere,
	and no one sees us:
	the darkness of Adam's sin
	prevents our being discerned.

	Woman, if you will come to my bright people,
	you will have a crown of gold for your head;
	honey, wine, fresh milk to drink
	you will have with me there, Be' Find.

			From "The Wooing of Eta'in," tr. J. Gantz

To the Lovers, the Dreamers, and me....  and "me" includes fans everywhere.

crash.... and the glass explodes into an infinity of possible worlds,
limited only by our imaginations.



> - Kateri
>-- 
>The autumn leaves are falling like rain.
>Although my neighbors are all barbarians,
>And you, you are a thousand miles away,
>There are always two cups at my table.		 - A T'ang Dynasty poem


Erik, the BFG
-- 
     "All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain."
			Roy, _Blade Runner_
Erik Nielsen					erikred@ocf.berkeley.edu
From: olson@husc8.harvard.edu (Chip Olson)
Newsgroups: alt.callahans
Subject: Re: Mundanity (was Re: Creation and Destruction)
Date: 8 Apr 92 03:56:23 GMT
Article-I.D.: husc8.OLSON.92Apr7235623
 03542.16482@midway.uchicago.edu><1992Apr7.041337.9346@midway.uchicago.edu>
Organization: Spam-On-A-Rope Inc.
In-reply-to: moh2@quads.uchicago.edu's message of Tue, 7 Apr 1992 04:13:37 GMT

In article <1992Apr7.041337.9346@midway.uchicago.edu> moh2@quads.uchicago.edu (Kateri/Mary Anne) writes:

>P.S.- Btw, for anybody who loves English literature, a wonderful new book out 
>is Pamela Dean's _Tam Lin_ - the main character is the daughter of an English 
>major..besides being a good retelling of the legend of Thomas the Rhymer, it is
>loaded with references to literary  works (it takes place at a small college),
> and kept making me think...."that sounds wonderful", or, "I've been meaning
>to read that".  Lots of fun.

Castellan does yet another of his famous double takes.  "I saw that in a store 
the other day... It caught my eye, because Fairport Convention's version of 
the folksong of the same name is absolutely marvellous.  Actually, I've 
never heard another version, but there are very few who could hope to equal 
the late, great Sandy Denny."



--
-Chip Olson. | olson@husc.harvard.edu | ceo@gnu.ai.mit.edu (seldom used)
"So come all ye lovers of the Good Life, your children playing in the sun,
And set a sympathetic flag a-flying, and be there when the Dutchman comes..."
                                      -Jethro Tull, "Flying Dutchman"
Newsgroups: alt.callahans
From: mar@physics.su.OZ.AU (David Mar)
Subject: Re: Potstickers
Organization: School of Physics, University of Sydney, Australia
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1992 06:39:25 GMT

> [Mentor:]
> Danger Mouse wants to know what a 'potsticker' is....
> Briefly, it's a chinese stuffed dumpling that is fried instead of steamed. 

"Aha!" Danger Mouse finally has some concept of what the US folks are
raving about. "Do you mean to say that you don't use the (much more
appetising, IMHO) Chinese names of won-ton, shao-mai and dim-sim?"

- Danger Mouse.
From: lydick@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU (Speaker-to-Minerals)
Newsgroups: alt.callahans
Subject: Re: A new wizard.
Date: 14 Apr 92 20:31:37 GMT
Reply-To: lydick@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU
Organization: HST Wide Field/Planetary Camera

In article <1992Apr13.004350.5832@ucc.su.OZ.AU>, pope@physics.su.OZ.AU (Michael Pope) writes:
>"The Wizard's magic is the magic people come to this bar to seek, surely you
>all know what that is???"

I don't think so.  You've yet to show any evidence, either magical or mundane,
to create truly horrendous puns.  Try again.
From: seawasp+@pitt.edu (Ryk E Spoor)
Newsgroups: alt.callahans
Subject: Re: Week from hell...
Date: 10 Apr 92 03:57:22 GMT
Organization: University of Pittsburgh

In article <1992Apr9.180354.15124@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> trumpins@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu (Barbara Trumpinski) writes:
>even though she is relatively sure sea wasp will hate it
>kitten immediately goes into "mom mode" (just ask didi about kitten in
>mom mode) and starts fussing.  "i'll bet you are gaming to much,
>studying to late and not eating right.  she shakes her head and gets a
>cup of hot tea from the bar.  "drink this."  she wraps a rainbow
>covered afghan around the wasp...ignoring his growls.

	"No, no, mom... er, Kitten. I've been STUDYING too much, eating 
too late, and not gaming right. Jeez." He accepts the hot tea meekly,
but squints suspiciously at the afghan. "I hope this thing is made
entirely of synthetic materials..." he mumbles, remembering that he's
allergic to wool, cotton, and any fur or hair...

                                 Sea Wasp
                                   /^\
                                   ;;;
From: randolph@cognito.Eng.Sun.COM (Randolph Fritz)
Newsgroups: alt.callahans
Subject: My e-mail address is changing.
Date: 15 Apr 92 22:13:49 GMT
Reply-To: randolph@cognito.Eng.Sun.COM
Organization: St. Dismas Infirmary for the Incurably Informed
NNTP-Posting-Host: cognito

I'll be out of touch until at least Monday the 20th.  The new e-mail address
will probably be randolph.fritz@ebay.sun.com.  *Hugs* to all of you & see you
(soon, I hope) at the new location.


     |\/|\/|
     |  | ||\  /|
     |  | || \/||
|\  /|  | || | ||
| \/||  | || | ||  Randolph Fritz
| | ||  | || | ||  <<< address under construction >>>
| | ||  | || | ||  Mountain View, California, North America, Earth
| | ||  | || | ||
| | ||  | || | ||
| | ||  | || | ||
|\| ||\/ \/|\| ||
Newsgroups: alt.callahans
From: mar@physics.su.OZ.AU (David Mar)
Subject: Re: Hickory, hickory dock, a cartoon mouse on rock...
Organization: School of Physics, University of Sydney, Australia
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1992 02:11:34 GMT

>Skeeve, who nobody noticed coming into the meadow, steps into view of
>the crag...
>Tying the end of the rope to the *harness*, he starts up the rock:
>
>"ON BELAY"
>
>"...belay on...", quoth DM.

Danger Mouse looks around, surprised to find himself being quoted when he
hasn't said anything. Spying Ignatz at the top of the rock, his eyes light
up in understanding. For Ignatz is otherwise known as the cartoon mouse,
not his humble self.

He wanders over to inspect the rocky outcrop and to admire the grace with
which Skeeve tackles it. "Yes, your view of the top is obscured by that
jutting portion on the right there. You up there, Ignatz?!!"

A two-dimensional cartoon mouse hand waves over the edge of the precipice
above. "Can't talk, DM. I'm belaying!"

"Sorry, of course! There must be a fine view from up there! It's a shame
I'm not a rock-climber myself."

DM pauses to marvel at the immense variety of things that humans do for
pleasure. Perhaps after he returns from his three day Easter bushwalk
(with both Shonias and the Wizard) he will treat everyone to an Xwindow...

- Danger Mouse.
From: seawasp+@pitt.edu (Ryk E Spoor)
Newsgroups: alt.callahans
Subject: Re:  Belated greetings, and other topics (was Re: Rhetoric: The.
Date: 8 Apr 92 15:07:55 GMT
Organization: University of Pittsburgh

In article <9204062359.AA13363@yrloc.ipsa.reuter.COM> dgil@ipsaint.ipsa.reuter.com (Gillett, David) writes:
>      Seawasp quotes me for suggesting something that an '*ideal*' society
>'might' do, and throws up Nazi Germany as a 'culture' (we could debate whether
>it qualifies, but why bother?) with which such an ideal could have a problem.
>I don't think I've yet taken a position in this discussion that merits such a
>bald-faced attempt to insert a straw man.

	Not a straw man. A _reductio ad absurdum_. The point is that you can't
say you'll treat ALL cultures equally and then exclude cultures. ANY cultures.
Even though many (ancient Japan, with its total xenophobia, comes to mind) 
are/were incompatible with each other. How about any culture that thinks it's
proper to kill those not belonging to it? And so on.

>out.  (Check out the barbarians at your next con, and the people who are
>looking forward to apocalypse because they anticipate the return of feudalism.)

	Can't argue there -- I still can't comprehend the SCAdians who actually
WANT to live in that era. Me, only if I can bring the CRC and a couple sturdy
bodyguards (and several firearms with lots of ammo) with me....

>     If there is no Objective criterion by which we can tell a Randian Hero
>from a bum who has inherited a pile of money -- as Seawasp himself suggests
>may be a problem -- then I submit that Objectivism is an intellectual fraud.

	No, I didn't say that at all. I said that if you're being charged for
the resources you control, then you are not differentiating between such
people, since a person who inherits a huge empire still controls the same
resources as a person who creates the empire.

	However, there IS a simple objective criterion; the bum inherited
and doesn't build, the Randian hero built it.

                                 Sea Wasp
                                   /^\
                                   ;;;
From: eesshlgb@gdr.bath.ac.uk (S H L G Bisson)
Newsgroups: alt.callahans
Subject: The Return Of The Easter Ignatz!
Date: 16 Apr 92 11:15:09 GMT
Organization: School of Electrical Engineering, University of Bath, UK

It's that time of the year for all things rodent to do rodenty things,
and Ignatz is no exception...

Just as it did last year the door to the bar opens with a thud, and in
bounces The Easter Ignatz! Carrying his basket of chocolate and carob
around the place, throwing eggs to all and sundry, with a chocolate
rainbow for Toothpick, and nothing for the Mandlebear (well, he got an
infinite egg last year, and he won't have finished it yet... :-). There's
a special oil-filled egg for Nick, a box of fondant-filled eggs for Didi,
DM's might (or might not) be exploding, and there are peanut filled eggs
for too many people to mention. And right there at the bottom of the 
basket is one tiny shining egg, wrapped in the brightest green foil, which
The Easter Ignatz passes to the Mandlebear for safe-keeping.

He pauses with his last egg, and tosses it into the fireplace.

<SKER-PLUNK>

"To Easter... to new beginnings, to new life, to love that knows no
boundaries..."

His job done once more, The Easter Ignatz bounds out the door for another
year...

----
Ignatz Mouse/Simon H Le G Bisson...net.jerriais,sf-bibliophile,climber......
------
Newsgroups: alt.callahans
From: lindercs@HYDRA.ROSE-HULMAN.EDU (Galadin (Craig Linderoth))
Subject: astrology
Reply-To: lindercs@HYDRA.ROSE-HULMAN.EDU
Organization: Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1992 22:11:15 GMT

	Galadin is listening to all of this talk about passionate signs and he
realizes that no one has addressed the issue of Capricorns.  He will forgive
such an oversight as long as it doesn't happen again  :)   Now on to
Capricorn's (The Goat),  which for some reason is the most neglected of the
signs also.  According to the books, we are not as passionate as some of the
other signs, except for when we are in a relationship that is really important.  
	In this case, capricorns can tend to be some of the most passionate of
the signs.  This is due to the fact that a capricorn is a very loyal partner
and will do most anything in their power to keep the relationship alive.  And
well, passion is one of the important things in many relationships.  The only
thing that is not suppose to happen is to get 2 capricorns together.  Then they
will tend to fight it out and not work real well together.  Good thing my
fiancee' and I don't listen to that.
	Anyway, anyone looking for a loyal and after the relationship has
started, passionate person, seek out the capricorns.  Oh, the male capricorns
are also much more emotional then the females.


******************************************************************************
*Craig Linderoth                * Reality is for People who Lack Imagination.*
*Lindercs@Rosevc.rose-hulman.edu*   The Callahanian Protector of People from *
*ChemEng, Rose-Hulman           *    Outrageous Pun Throwers    SPLAT :)     *
******************************************************************************