HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: thiessen@emr1.emr.ca (Tracy Thiessen)
Subject: Re: on self-editing and an intro. to fiction writing class
Organization: Energy, Mines, and Resources, Ottawa
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 13:32:14 GMT

In article <1993Jan27.193617.13732@eos.arc.nasa.gov> kyrsten@eos.arc.nasa.gov (Kyrsten Swazey) writes:
>has repeatedly stated that any editor (?) can clean these up
>effortlessly.  Most people use word processors and have spell, if not
>also grammar, checks.  
>Does this reliance upon a computer or someone else hinder ones actual
>talent as a writer?  I believe it does--what else is a writer but
>someone who can express themself in the most immediate and touching way?
>Are they not supposed to be the best at what they claim to do?
>Am i looking at this in the wrong way?
>
>-kyrsten
>

As someone who makes her living as a writer, and has the dubious
pleasure of reading and editing  all sorts of crap from other 
technologically enhanced professional writers, I'd say that the computer,
although a great tool, really doesn't make any difference in
the end with respect to talent.  I mean, it will find your
typos all right, but it won't do the work for you, nor will
it ever make a piece "sing". 

This may sound odd, but I'll rant forth anyway: in hindsight, all
the CW classes I took in university were like my "childhood" as 
a writer.  Don't worry about spelling errors, cried the instructor,
any editor will fix those! (Your prof is not unique.) Grammar
shmammar: let's look at that dialogue!  Now, as a hired gun and 
in my "adulthood", I simply cannot get away with spelling and grammar
errors, or I'll be finished very quickly. I've been forced to become a
meticulous editor of my own work, and that has carried over to
to my unpaid fiction (hope that situation will change!) 

My point?  Use this time to learn ways to put guts into your work.
The technical stuff will follow (if it is required at all).

Tracy 


Xref: sparky misc.writing:4228 misc.kids:33178 rec.arts.books:26026
From: francis@oas.stanford.edu (Francis Muir)
Newsgroups: misc.writing,misc.kids,rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Question - what's the word for ...
Date: 22 Jan 1993 15:40:12 GMT
Organization: Stanford Exploration Project
NNTP-Posting-Host: oas.stanford.edu

David J. Daulton writes:

	Rheal Nadeau quotes a dictionary:

		Malapropism - "a usually humorous misapplication of 
		a word; specif:  the use of a word sounding somewhat 
		like the one intended but ludicrously wrong in the 
		context" 

	Which calls to mind "solecism", which is similar, but is based more
	on the idea of a corruption of a word, versus "malapropism's"
	inappropriateness.

Fowler -- always good for a chuckle -- has this to say about Mistress
Malaprop:

	"She is now the matron saint of all those
	who go wordfowling with a blunderbuss."

This sounds like one of Sir Ernest Gowers contributions -- perhaps someone 
with a truly antient edition of Fowler could check to see if this statement
is there. Fowler laso says this about solecism:

	"The grammarians used to distinguish between *barbarism*,
	incorrectness in the use of words, and *solecism*, incorrectness
	in the construction of sentences."

						RABworm
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: mapd1@syma.sussex.ac.uk (Nigel Ling)
Subject: Re: Not revising - with a twist
Organization: University of Sussex
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 12:34:35 GMT

In article <1k7ncnINNhno@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu> mgcbo@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu (Charles B. Owen) writes:
>In article <ewright.728174075@convex.convex.com> ewright@convex.com (Edward V. Wright) writes:
>>
>>
>>Those who can, do...
>>
>Am I the only one who finds this old saying offensive?  I spent over a
>decade in the computer industry.  Now I teach computer science.  I can do.
>I choose to teach now.  I find it rewarding. 

No, I think it not only offensive but rather stupid. Just because
Shaw (it was him wasn't it?) threw away that little saw, people have
been coming out with it ever since.

>  
>Many famous writers and not so famous writers can do, but also teach in
>various forms.  

Indeed so. William Golding, for instance, was a teacher for many years.
And he managed to do a bit more than teach.

Maybe Edward was only joking, but in any case I would modify the saying to

Those who can, do, including teach: those who can't quote silly
remarks

Nigel
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1993 23:11:57 CST
From: LARRY GRIMM <U19163@uicvm.uic.edu>
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Rewriting and the Textbook

There is a whole other context in which one can discuss rewriting: responding
to reviewers' comments on drafts of chapters of a textbook.  I recently
completed writing an Introductory Statistics text for college students, those
primarily in psychology.  It was to take one year, it took four (it's
due out next week, yea).  One reason the book was so long in the making
was because of the unreliability among the reviewers.  This one loves a
section, that one hates it.  This one wants certain material included, that
one wants it deleted.  Having never written a book before, and feeling
unsure of myself, I fell into the trap of trying to please everyone.
The process of rewriting, reorganizing, rewriting, reorganizing, ad infinitum,
created endless frustration.  The material improved, but in a most
inefficient way.  Toward the end of the project I realized that I must
share much of the responsibility for what was happening.  My vision of
what the book should be was not clear enough.  It also helped that my
"need for approval" had diminished and I became less afraid of displeasing
any one reviewer.  By the way, the Psychology Editor was not at all
helpful since the nature of textbooks is that the content is technical and,
thus, beyond the expertise of the editor.
As an aside, is there any interest in setting up a bulliten board for
writers in the sciences?  The issues that arise in this genre are
different than when writing fiction, or when writing for the "public."
Also, would it not be helpful to establish a discussion on the
emotional aspects of writing--the isolation, the effects on one's
social life, frustrations, fears, the list is practically endless.  These
aspects of writing cut across genres.
From: mgcbo@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu (Charles B. Owen)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: Not revising - with a twist
Date: 25 Jan 1993 20:05:09 -0600
Organization: Educational Computing Network
NNTP-Posting-Host: uxa.ecn.bgu.edu

>P.S. to Heinlein worshippers:  IMHO, some of his later stuff would
>have had substantially more  impact if some editor had had the guts (or
>the authority) to say to the great man, "Look, I *know* you're famous now,
> but that doesn't mean everything that comes from your pen  is sacred.
>Let's  cut some of the philosophical  musing, and
> tighten this  plot up a little, OK?"   [Please, folks, no flames!
> It's just an opinion!]
>
>Maureen (a.k.a. Jane)

Fire and Brimstone on you.  No, seriously, I just recently completed the
combination of rereading Heinlein's _Friday_ and Ansen Dibell's _Plot_.
There is not doubt in my mind that, if that novel been send over the
transom to a publisher with no name on it that it would have been
rejected.  (And you thought you would get flames!)  This and most books
I have on writing fiction point out numerous problems in this novel that
should have been fixed.  If nothing else, at least 20% of the text
should have been cut, it does nothing to advance the plot.  Also, there
is a huge section of exposition about intersteller travel routes and
colonys that nearly bored me to death.  It is what Mr. Dibell calls
"World Builder's Disease."

I guess what I am saying, Maureen/Jane, is that I agree with you that Mr.
Heinlein may not be the best example/expert in fiction writing.  The
knowledge to do something is not always equivalent to the ability to
teach.  

-- 
| Charles B. Owen                            Internet: mgcbo@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu |
| Western Illinois University                            Phone: 309-837-4292 |
| 1002 E. Murray                                                             |
| Macomb, IL  61455                                                          |
From: mfc1493@tamsun.tamu.edu (Ratboy)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: *** Why is rewriting bad ?
Date: 24 Jan 1993 21:46:33 -0600
Organization: Texas A&M University, College Station, TX
NNTP-Posting-Host: tamsun.tamu.edu

>> Robert Heinlein wrote an editorial listing the steps necessary to 
>> succeed as a writer.
>> 
>>   1) Write.
>>   2) Finish what you start.
>>   3) Put it in the mail to somebody likely to buy it.
>>   4) Never rewrite except to editorial request. NEVER.
>>   5) Keep sending the story out until you've run out of markets.
>>   6) Write something else.
>> 
>> They all make pretty good sense to me, except number four.  
>> I don't believe he's saying that one should always be satisfied
>> with one's first draft.  What is it exactly that he advises against ? 
>
>I don't think that Heinlien was advising to only write one adraft;
>what I think he means in that once you have finished the piece
>of writing and YOU are happy with it (and let's face some writers
>need more rewrites than other :), then you shouldn't rewrite it
>unless it has been accepted, and the editor wants a few minor
>changes.
>

Agreed. :)

My girlfriend thinks that I rewrite too much...kill the story...but she
always admits (eventually) that the story comes out better after a few touches.
I can't obviously speak for Heinlien, but as for myself, when I am happy
with a story...it is finished. A few years later I may look back and say
"hey, I should have changed that part" or "I could have said that better"...and
I may go back and change it, but not likely after too long. When it's 
finished, it's finished. Move on.

I have a problem with the entire "Rules for Writers" concept.
As I see it everyone writes differently, everyone comes from different
backgrounds with different experiences. There is no set Bible of "This is how
you write." Find what works for you. Granted, tips from writers, particularly
in the publication aspect, may proved beneficial, but the actual creative
process is yours. Find what works for you. If you don't feel the need to 
rewrite (before editorial request) then by all means don't rewrite. I, on the
other hand, must labor over a text.

Yea, I ramble. Sorry.

Michael










Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: marcy@sqwest.wimsey.bc.ca (Marcy Thompson)
Subject: Indexing (was: *** Why is rewriting bad?)
Organization: SoftQuad Inc., Surrey, British Columbia, CANADA
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 21:04:27 GMT

In a recent misc.writing article, Len Olszewski wrote:
>
>In article Thomas Beagle writes:
>
>|> ObWriting : When writing a manual, do you index as you go (and risk
>|> all sorts of incompatibilities) or do you index after the bulk of the
>|> manual is written?
>
>After its finished. The way we lay it out here, setting the final page 
>breaks is an important pre-index requirement. Also, you never know 
>what's going to be in or out in some books, really, until the last
>minute. You've already mentioned consistency as good reason to wait.
>Also, the editors get the book last, and they can introduce all kinds of 
>changes.

As we go. We use SGML and our document structure includes index elements.
You can put them in as you go. ("Oh, I'm writing about error messages. That
should go into the index. BANG! There it is.")

When the document is done and printed, the printing software doesn't print
these elements, it just notes them and the page number on which they appear.
So the index is created as the document is printed. ("Look, Sadie, there's
a discussion of error messages on page 67!") Usually, we massge the index
entries when we look at the first page proofs, which are intended to be
drafts anyway.

The index element (in case anyone cares) allows you to specify the index
entry, including a parent entry if you want. As a result, we get index
entries which look like:


    Equation delimiters  . . 36
    Errors
       conditions  . . . . . 72-75
       messages  . . . . . . 67, B.1-9
       testing in macros . . B10

I've worked in shops where the indexing was done by hand at the end of the
process. This is much, much better. Much better. 

Marcy

-- 

Marcy Thompson		
  SoftQuad (West)			
    marcy@sqwest.wimsey.bc.ca (preferred) or marcy@sq.com
From: djd@cbnewsg.cb.att.com (david.j.daulton)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: Not revising - with a twist
Date: 23 Jan 93 05:33:09 GMT
Organization: AT&T

Regarding:
>> As far as using Heinlein's rule, I wonder if anyone has ever tried it, with
>> the added twist that when you finish a piece, if it is not worth submitting,
>> then throw it away ...
>> 
>> Any takers?

And the reply:
>
>Oh, God!  Throw away one of my children?!
>

This calls to mind another statement that (as I recall) came from Heinlein,
that "Writing for the trunk is masturbation."  So rather than one's children,
one would be throwing away...well, being a polite person, at least in mixed
company (and this certainly is a mixed company), I think I won't complete
that thought.

Dave Daulton, Columbus, Ohio
From: chuq@Apple.COM (I Bleed Teal)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: Need Proofreader
Date: 27 Jan 93 16:40:50 GMT
Distribution: CA
Organization: Go Sharks, Inc.

jdm@Cadence.COM (Joe Mastroianni) writes:

>  I will pay real money.  How much real money?

FWIW, the going rate for a good copyeditor hired by a publisher is about $15
an hour. If you're really interested in having someone squeegee your
manuscripts clean, I can get exact rates and a couple of names you can
contact.

>  Neither my agent nor I can afford to spend so much time on stupid mistakes.

I will say this. I don't believe you can afford NOT to, because I think it's
crucial that authors learn to edit themselves. It's a learning process, but
it's an important aspect of learning the strengths and weaknesses of your
own writing, which is ultimately how you become a bettter writer. 

If you always depend on outside sources to correct your flaws, you'll never
learn how to stop introducing them in the first place. It might be
worthwhile to work with someone once or twice identifying problem areas for
you to focus on (but if you were doing that, I'd recommend a good workshop
or working with someone who does manuscript critique and evaluation, which
is different), but ultimately, the key to becoming a better writer is not to
throw money at the manuscript flaws, but to learn how to write those flaws
out of the manuscript. 

IMHO.


Just IM
-- 
 Chuq "IMHO" Von Rospach, ESD Support & Training (DAL/AUX) =+= chuq@apple.com
   Member, SFWA =+= Editor, OtherRealms =+=  GEnie: MAC.BIGOT =+= ALink:CHUQ 
  Minor League fans: minors-request@medraut.apple.com (San Jose Giants: A/1/9)
     San Jose Sharks fans: sharks-request@medraut.apple.com (Seat: MM/D/2)

                   Go Sharks! (it's almost baseball season!)
From: lnh@soliton.physics.arizona.edu (sometimes a Wombat)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: Publishing
Date: 26 Jan 93 00:12:50 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Society for the Appreciation of Janni Lee Simner


Get from the library or buy the 1993 WRITER'S MARKET.  It is not the
Bible, but it's the most accurate thing you can get.

Find markets in there that sound like they might print the sort of
story you have written.  Write to these markets for guidelines for
submission.  Include an SASE.

As soon as you finish a story, start the next one.  This is important.

While waiting for those to return, find copies of as many of these
markets as you can, read the stories, and see whether they are, in
fact, publishing the sort of story you have written.

Simultaineously, keep working on the next one.

When you have guidelines for at least the one you want to shoot for
first (ideally, a paying market), print out your story in proper
manuscript format.  This is important.  Mail it off.  Include an SASE
with sufficient postage (and or suffiient size) that the story can be 
returned -OR- clearly mark that "this is a disposable copy" and 
include a regular SASE.  This is also important.

Do not send any story to a market that doesn't print that sort of
story.  E.g., children's books to a publisher of military fiction (this
really happens).

While waiting, keep writing the next story after that, and continue the
market research.

When ever a story comes back, send it to the next market on your list.
When you finish a story, send it to the top of the list.

A rejection that says "This isn't right for us" means just that.
Trying to read anything more into it is like trying to prophecy from
entrails.

A letter tha say "We want to buy it" means just that.  What comes after
is out of the perview of this reply.

If you've reached this step you should be several stories beyond the
first one.  Keep writing.

As soon as you finish a story, start the next one.  This is important.

Anyone who wants you to pay them to print something should be
dropkicked out the window, the name scratched permentantly off your
list, and forgotten about.

As soon as you finish a story, start the next one.  This is important.

      Larry "Keep sending them out.  This is also important" Hammer
--

LNH@physics.arizona.edu   \  For love all love of other sights controls,
GEnie: L.HAMMER2           \ And makes one little room an everywhere -- Donne
From: cozzlab@garnet.berkeley.edu ()
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: Not revising - with a twist
Date: 26 Jan 1993 19:46:40 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: garnet.berkeley.edu

In article <1993Jan23.053309.14920@cbfsb.cb.att.com> djd@cbnewsg.cb.att.com (david.j.daulton) writes:

>... "Writing for the trunk is masturbation."  ....

And, by analogy, writing for publication is prostitution ...

(pause for all the professional writers within eyeshot to murmur, 

"You bet!" )

And writing for a few close friends, like Jane Austin, would be a small
catered orgy, I guess, and ....

any further ideas?

Dorothy J. Heydt
UC Berkeley
cozzlab@garnet.berkeley.edu

Disclaimer:  UCB and the Cozzarelli lab are not responsible for my
opinions, and in fact I don't think they know I have any.
From: gpalo@digi.lonestar.org (Gerry Palo)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Not revising - with a twist
Date: 21 Jan 93 21:37:05 GMT
Distribution: misc.writing
Organization: DSC Communications Corp, Plano, TX

This idea of not rewriting is fascinating as a possible exercise.  I have
had a couple of articles published, the first one two years ago, my first
ever (at age 47).  It was an exhausting process and I worked on it and rewrote
it multiple times.  I was very happy with the results and others, including
the editor, said so too (it even got translated into German and published 
in another magazine). But I realized that this was no way to run a railroad,
and it really was a strain on my family for me to spend so much time in front
of the word processor for such a long stretch.  Since then I have written a 
couple more and got two published.  I still take too much time, but I am 
improving.

As far as using Heinlein's rule, I wonder if anyone has ever tried it, with
the added twist that when you finish a piece, if it is not worth submitting,
then throw it away and start something new - don't submit it at all.
I admit this would be very hard to do, but the discipline might help one to
improve one's overall skills and productivity.  I would think also that the
act of throwing a piece away might help in detaching one's ego from the
work, something I find very difficult to do. 

Any takers?

Gerry Palo (73237.2006@compuserve.com)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: mds5597@ritvax.isc.rit.edu
Subject: Publishing
Reply-To: mds5597@ritvax.isc.rit.edu
Organization: Rochester Institute of Technology
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 18:22:46 GMT

	Let's say that you have a short story that you have gotten to a point
where you want to publish it. Who do you go to? Someone once told me to try 50
people before changing it......who would I send it to?

                                               
                                                      Treky and Tabatha
							    N8VFZ

P.S.
----
Live long and prosper.
From: mds5597@ritvax.isc.rit.edu
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: Writing Erotica
Date: 26 Jan 93 15:37:06 GMT
Reply-To: mds5597@ritvax.isc.rit.edu
Organization: Rochester Institute of Technology

In article <93025.143412RMACMIL@auvm.american.edu>, Robert B. MacMillan <RMACMIL@auvm.american.edu> writes:
>i believe that erotica is an overused form of art these days.  if you truly
>consider yourself a writer of erotica, keep a lid on it for a few years until
>this madonna bullshit dies down.  remember that de sade and nin came long
>before you, and that every other self-posessed artiste considers themselves
>at one point or another a purveyor of 'erotica'.  if you are true, your style
>will shine through, but not while there are too many other false diamonds
>glittering.


	Wow....I looked at the Madonna book.....(no I did not buy it). I got to
the part with the dog and closed it. No I do not think it should be burned, but
I am not entirely sure that it should be in the "non erotica" book stores
either. Can we clarify something here.....erotica and romance...what's the
difference? When I think of Romance, I think of feelings and love. When I think
of Erotica I think of nudity and sex. Is this about right?

                                               
                                                      Treky and Tabatha
							    N8VFZ

P.S.
----
Live long and prosper.
From: mgcbo@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu (Charles B. Owen)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: Not revising - with a twist
Date: 27 Jan 1993 22:28:07 -0600
Organization: Educational Computing Network
NNTP-Posting-Host: uxa.ecn.bgu.edu

In article <ewright.728174075@convex.convex.com> ewright@convex.com (Edward V. Wright) writes:
>In <1k268lINN1ln@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu> mgcbo@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu (Charles B. Owen) writes:
>
>>I guess what I am saying, Maureen/Jane, is that I agree with you that Mr.
>>Heinlein may not be the best example/expert in fiction writing.  The
>>knowledge to do something is not always equivalent to the ability to
>>teach.  
>
>Those who can, do...
>
Am I the only one who finds this old saying offensive?  I spent over a
decade in the computer industry.  Now I teach computer science.  I can do.
I choose to teach now.  I find it rewarding. 
  
Many famous writers and not so famous writers can do, but also teach in
various forms.  It is my assertion that Heinlein was a great writer, is
now a good writer, is not really as concerned about improving his work
and does, to some extent, ride on his name.  Now, this is not bad, but
when he prints a list of rules about writing, everyone wants to take his
word as gospel.  And, if we go by the best selling lists, I can't wait
for the new essay, "How I leant to write in 100 days," by General
Schwartzkoff.  

-- 
| Charles B. Owen                            Internet: mgcbo@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu |
| Western Illinois University                            Phone: 309-837-4292 |
| 1002 E. Murray                                                             |
| Macomb, IL  61455                                                          |
Xref: sparky misc.writing:4240 misc.kids:33269 rec.arts.books:26112
From: yarnot@babbage.csus.edu (Jan Yarnot)
Newsgroups: misc.writing,misc.kids,rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Question - what's the word for ...
Date: 23 Jan 93 03:32:37 GMT
Organization: Moi?

The misc.kids folks solved this last week, but somehow the r.a.b.ble missed
out.  The word is "Mondegreen" from "Lady Mondegreen" which is truly
"laid him on the green."  It's substituting like-sounding words for
something one didn't hear quite right, unlike a malapropism, which is
using the wrong word.
--
---Jan Yarnot, net.grandma.-- | When you go out into the world,
			      | watch out for traffic, hold hands,
                              | and stick together.
CSUS depends on my every word.|             --Robert Fulghum