From: pharvey@mipos3.intel.com (Paul Harvey)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Origins of the Universe was (Clouds of hydrogen gas)
Keywords: We are all a product of the big-bang!
Date: 24 Jul 92 18:54:48 GMT
	<4561@daily-planet.concordia.ca> <12371@inews.intel.com> 
	<4589@daily-planet.concordia.ca>

>>>1.  Recollapse *does not* mean cyclical.  It is far from clear how
>>>a cyclical universe would work, and the big crunch does not necessarily lead
>>>to another big bang.

>>Yeah, but doesn't it seem unlikely that the big crunch would be stable?

In article <4589@daily-planet.concordia.ca> 
gsmith@concour.cs.concordia.ca (Gene Ward Smith) writes:
>I don't see why, a black hole is a singularity and it is stable.  The
>trouble with big bang/big crunch singularities is that it is hard to
>come up with any decent mathematical argument about what they ought to
>do, but a big crunch singularity would seem to represent a high degree
>of entropy in some sense. 

I can't believe I said stable. If you thing about it, stable doesn't mean
a thing for a black hole and it sure doesn't mean anything as you approach
time zero.

>I don't see any reason for regarding it as likely to blow apart--gravity is 
>attractive, not repulsive.

Fair enough. It's a battle of the weak forces versus the strong forces, who
knows who will win. And that gravity is a tricky thing. If it is so attractive,
why is the universe currently flying apart? Personally, I like to keep in
mind what Einstein said about gravity. It is only a distortion of the space-
time continuim caused by that devilish pair of opposites, energy and mass. Well
maybe he didn't say that exactly.

>I don't think such models have worked the bugs out, but this would
>seem to be a problem--we wouldn't get a new clean universe like the
>one we are in, but one with a grotty, irregular big bang with lot of
>black holes and stuff flying out--if it manages to explode at all,
>which I still don't see how it could do (compare the entropy at the
>end of the old universe with that at the start of the new one, for
>instance.)

I still question whether or not entropy would make it intact through a
big-bang/big-crunch/time-zero phenomon. Sure there is entropy before and
entropy after, but as for comparing amounts or the conservation of entropy
thorough time zero ...

>>Right, but there seems to be a trend towards that direction. If sufficient
>>mass is discovered, do you think it will change common culture, like the
>>discovery by Europeans that the earth was round? 

>I doubt it.  People right now usually know very little cosmology, and
>why would this change?

Good point, to bad really. I guess astrology gives it a bad name. Maybe if
there was some kind of a free gift gimick. Like, if you believe that there
is sufficient matter in the universe then there will be and we will be
saved. But if you do not accept this free gift, then your fate is the
undiscribable condition of "ENTROPY DEATH". And of course, if you do
nothing at all, then "ENTROPY DEATH" is the default. So you better accept
the free gift of cosmology before it's too late! Accept the free gift of
salvation from "ENTROPY DEATH".

>>No! You mean Hawking is not the direct word from God?

>He was offered the job, but turned it down.

If you think about it, it is good that he turned down the job. After all,
that offer would have to be the ultimate temptation from the devil.

>>But assuming that the Great Unified Field Theory, essentially
>>the monotheistic God of science, is discovered, will the concept of entropy 
>>still exist as one approaches time zero? At what point in time does the
>>Second Law cease to exist?

>Probably.  The Second Law is a statistical law of a very general
>character, and it is pretty hard for any field theory to change it.
>But *at* time zero is another problem.  Does a big crunch or big bang
>singulariy have a definite entropy?  Just defining the entropy (in
>some sense) of the universe as a whole is enough of a problem.

Exactly. A lot of things that we assume are reality for us just don't exist
when you approach time zero, the realm of the gods, the source of all, the
Holy Grail if you like.

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