HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: anthrax@vax1.mankato.msus.edu
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Bad tactical position ( was Psychology in Defense)
Date: 8 Nov 92 13:26:13 GMT
Organization: Mankato State University

In article <viking.721119254@vincent1.iastate.edu>, viking@iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson) writes:
# osan@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (Mr. X) writes:
# 
# #	I would concentrate more on being quite wiling to blow a hole in
# #	the bastard at the first hint of cuteness on their part, and
# #	dispense with all speech beyond the most essential.   Get him
# #	into an EXTREMELY poor tactical position (from his standpoint,
# #	of course) and get yourself out of his field of vision, making
# #	sure that he cannot spy you through reflections.
# 
# I hadn't really thought about it before, but what is possibly the best
# poor tactical position to put somebody in, and just how would you enforce
# your wishes?  Personally, I like the idea of spread eagle, on the ground,
# face in the dirt for a perp, but what if he doesn't obey?  I can't shoot
# the guy then, and there's no other option open to me.  If I'm holding
# a gun on a guy, I can't adjust his attitude with a club.  I've given
# myself only one option, basically.

The current position that is being taught to law enforcement as the safest
way to position suspects is the "prone position".  We have the subject lay on
the ground with his head turned away from the officer.  The subjects arms are
to be extended all the way out from the body with the palms facing up.  The
legs are to be spread as wide out as possible.  (Another school of thought has
the suspect crossing his/her ankles).
 
#From this position the suspect can be cuffed and searched very effectively.
 
The wall search has fallen out of favor (even the modified wall searches)
because of tactical problems and weapon retention problems that it creates.
 

# 
# < Dan Sorenson, DoD #1066 z1dan@exnet.iastate.edu viking@iastate.edu >
# <  ISU only censors what I read, not what I say.  Don't blame them.  >
# <  "This isn't an answer, it's a pagan dance around a midnight fire  >
# <   written in intellectual runes." -- Rich Young                    >
# 
# 
# 

Eric Huber
Mankato State University
Law Enforcement Program
Xref: sparky rec.guns:15667 talk.politics.guns:23983
From: mkuittin@messi.uku.fi (Marko Kuittinen)
Newsgroups: rec.guns,talk.politics.guns
Subject: licences ?
Date: 11 Nov 92 20:53:07 GMT
Followup-To: talk.politics.guns



I am interested in what people think about licencing fire arms (hand &
hunting guns). Licence would be available for only a restricted lot of
people. The restriction parameters would be dependent of the culture
associated.
Would it have an affect on mortality rate of gun related deaths? I am 
especially interested in the opinions of the folks from U.S.

[MODERATOR: I don't know if Marko has access to t.p.g., I am posting 
this here so you can respond to him directly or know to look for it over
in t.p.g. directly.]
From: bbx!bbxrbk!russ@unmvax.cs.unm.edu (Russ Kepler)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Unique questions
Date: 8 Nov 92 23:05:38 GMT
Organization: /etc/organization

In article <9211062016.AA15432@newshost.lanl.gov> crs@beta.lanl.gov (Charlie Sorsby) writes:
#In article <Bx944r.Cvs@fc.hp.com> scot@hpfcla.fc.hp.com (Scot Heath) writes:
#= 
#= CYA syndrom on Lee's part.  It is much safer to err in this manner.
#= I use volumetric measuring device tables only as a starting point.  I then
#= weigh the charge and adust the volume as needed.  I have NEVER had a table
#= supplied by the manufacturer be correct or wrong in the "throws more than
#= they say" direction.
#
#I agree BUT...  :)  I seem to recall that, with slow-burning
#powders there's a potential problem (is it with rifle cartridges
#only?) with *light* loads.  Something about detonation or something
#like that?

You'll get a lot of different answers on the "detonation" of low loads
of slow powder, but the evidence I've seen (_Firearms Pressure
Factors_) there are good evidence for high pressure excursions.  I
believe that the technical folks in the firearms business believe that
they're possible, and can occur.

But I don't think that a maker of a fixed powder measure would "lowball"
it's fixed measures to the point that a pressure excursion could occur - that
takes a 20% drop from the standard load.

#Of course they could be playing the odds--too much powder is almost
#always bad news while too little is only occasionally so...

True.

-- 
Russ Kepler, posting from home   bbxrbk!russ@bbx.basis.com
Will hack unix for food
From: micah@cco.caltech.edu (Micah Altman)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: LONG, rec.guns discussion
Date: 13 Nov 92 18:01:22 GMT
Article-I.D.: punisher.9211131712.AA04248

I've been reading this group for a year.
The group needs to continue be moderated, too much leakage from t.p.g. 
otherwise. Keep up the good work. 


Thanks,


Micah Altman

Lowly Grad Student
From: glock@chip.cba.ufl.edu (Joe Granto)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Laser Sights - The State of the Art
Date: 11 Nov 92 01:16:25 GMT
Organization: College of Business, University of Florida

In article <1992Nov9.090105.18519@netcom.com> pauly@netcom.com (Paul Yoshimune) writes:

#Actually, it would be nice if they could get the laser into a cylinder narrow
#enough to double as the recoil spring guide rod.  That way, the laser would add
#nothing at all to the dimensions of the gun, and the triggering mechanism 
#could be similar to those used on cameras: when the trigger is depressed part-
#way, the beam would be activated...


Actually, this exists right now.  It is very hard to find information on; 
the gun store I talked to said it was police/military only, but that was 2 
years or so ago.  The models of guns this was available on was very 
limited.  They were activated by a sensor pad located on the front of the 
grip, I believe.  If anyone has any better info, I would be interested in it.






Joe

****************************************************************
**                 GLOCK@chip.cba.ufl.edu                     **
**                                                            **
**     "When the going gets tough, the tough get a GLOCK."    **
****************************************************************
From: ole@delab.sintef.no (Ole-Hjalmar Kristensen)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Norwegian Krag Question
Date: 11 Nov 92 15:49:39 GMT
Organization: SINTEF DELAB, Trondheim, Norway.

Yes, it is still in use, mainly for competition. The army hasn't used
it since WWII. A Krag in original condition is indeed a collecor's
item, but if it is mechanically sound, there is no reason not to shoot
it. The Krags used in competion are the Krag action with a new heavy
barrel and a new stock. The reason why it is still used, is that
although the Mauser is stronger and less influenced by humidity, the
Krag action is smoother and easier to use for rapid fire. 

A couple of years ago, "Det Frivillige Skyttervesen", which is
responsible for most of the rifle competitions, approved a new Sauer
rifle, and this is replacing both the Krag and the Mauser. The new
Sauers are in general more accurate than either the Krags or the
Mausers.The standard caliber is still the 6.5x55. It has moderate
recoil and good accuracy at the 300 m range.

Although the dimensions are almost identical to the 6.5x55 Swedish
Mauser, the pressure is kept a bit lower because the Krag action is
not as strong as the Mauser. DO NOT use Mauser ammo in the Krag!!!
You can use Mauser die sets for reloading.




"If you are going to shoot, shoot, don't talk."
		    -- Il Bruto
From: bbx!bbxrbk!russ@unmvax.cs.unm.edu (Russ Kepler)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: INFO WANTED: Automag III cal. 30M1
Date: 11 Nov 92 01:18:29 GMT
Organization: /etc/organization

In article <1992Nov10.064309.14510@henson.cc.wwu.edu> n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio) writes:
#bbx!bbxrbk!russ@unmvax.cs.unm.edu (Russ Kepler) writes:
##Uhhh - it's not clear in your answer, but the .30 Carbine will have
##some 740 ft/lbs at the muzzle of a pistol vs. 550 ft/lbs for .357
##(averaging common .357 loads).  The .30 wins the energy race (and
##losing the "muzzle blast" race.)
#
#I could be wrong, as I don't have pistols for either, but I think
#that all things being equal, (same bullet wt. and barrel length),
#the .357 beats .30 Carbine hands down any given pistol, revolver,
#or rifle barrel length.

The original post restricted the cases to handgun, so I listed
something like the average loads for .30 carbine (110 grain FMJ @ 1740
fps) vs. a reasonable .357 in revolver (125 grain HP @ 1450 fps).  If
we choose to look at Contender loads for either I suspect that we
could make for a nice energy win in .357, but then I just make factory
loads in .30 carbine (as I think most everyone does).  The above
numbers from _NRA Firearms Fact Book_ and Gun Digest _1992 Shooters
Bible_.

If we open it up to rifle that the bigger case volume of the .357 can
make a win hands down, of course.  Looking over Ken Waters load data
from _Pet Loads_ shows the 125 grainer coming out at 1950 fps, .30
carbine makes 1990 fps.  The longer barrel tells.  I suspect that I
could push the .30 carbine a bit better, and know that you can do a
bit better with the .357.

So, in response to the original post: .30 Carbine has more energy in
a handgun lenght barrel, .357 has more in a rifle lenght barrel, and 
you get to pick the side in a Contender length barrel.

-- 
Russ Kepler, posting from home   bbxrbk!russ@bbx.basis.com
Will hack unix for food
From: news@cis.ohio-state.edu
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: (null)
Date: 6 Nov 92 19:59:41 GMT

smpod@venus.lerc.nasa.gov (Stefan) writes...
#Ed's Red is a commercial test bore cleaner that is a slight modification
#of Ed Harris recipe.  If anyone is interested in Ed's original recipe,
#let me know and I'll post it.

There have been a couple of requests for Ed's Red. I will need to communicate
with Ed Harris to verify the recipe and I should post within a week, hopefully.
#
From: jstrait@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (strait jeffrey c)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: fun things to shoot at
Date: 10 Nov 92 15:05:39 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana

hollombe@polymath.tti.com (The Polymath) writes:

#Plastic soft drink bottles full of water should be fun.  Someone suggested
#putting a little diesel fuel in the bottom of an empty one for a
#spectacular effect, but I've never tried it.

Freeze some ice in a half gallon milk container, remove the carton
and shoot the ice.

-- 
Jeff Strait                  |  jstrait@uiuc.edu
Coordinated Science Lab      |  or strait@uicsl.csl.uiuc.edu 
1308 West Main Street        |  (217) 333-6444
Urbana, IL 61801             |
From: swatt%mickey@net.yale.edu (Alan Watt)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: AMT .380, Colt Mustang, or other?
Date: 11 Nov 92 20:51:40 GMT
Organization: Yale University, Computing & Information Systems


In article <BxK0GE.3It@scylax.uucp>, scylax!tiglath@uunet.UU.NET writes:

|> I am sure many people enjoy single action guns, I am not criticizing
|> them.  My point is that when superior technology becomes available
|> you stick to older designs at your peril.  God forbid you ever
|> had to confront a foe with a Glock 21 with 14 45 ACP rounds in his gun,
|> with a 1911 model in your hand.  All things being equal you are
|> in serious trouble.  It is fine to go to a competition with a 1911
|> but to carry a gun cocked and locked all day, would make me real
|> uneasy.

The most important attribute of any gun is the shooter.  Massad Ayoob
tells of interviewing one NYC police officer who engated in a shoot-out
with an armed robber carrying an M1911.  The officer prevailed unhurt
and the felon didn't.  Ayoob asked him "didn't you feel out-gunned facing
a man with a .45 auto?".  The cop replied:

	"My man, shootin's straight with my .38 beats him givin' me
	 jive with his .45"

Yup.  I know all the wonderful things about Glocks, but somehow I
just can't get enthusiastic about them.  Whoever described them as
"Combat Tupperware" pretty much captured my feelings.  Maybe when
I see the price tag on the new Sig/Sauer P229, I'll reconsider.
-- 
  Alan S. Watt
  Yale University			Computing and Information Systems
  Box 2112 Yale Station			(203) 432-6602
  New Haven, CT  06520-2112		Watt-Alan@Yale.Edu
From: jbm@cyclone.sbi.com (Jeffrey B. Moore)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: AMT .380, Colt Mustang, or other
Date: 11 Nov 92 20:52:54 GMT

scylax!tiglath@uunet.UU.NET writes:
#  People still like to shoot arrows and I bet it is terrific fun
#  Many people like 1911 for their own reasons and thats fine too.
#  Now, I have a habit to look at police officers' guns to note what
#  he or she chose.  It is amazing how many of them chose to carry
#  Glocks.   I guess than when you are expecting trouble you want
#  the state of the art on your side and no less.  

I guess that when your issue weapon is mandated by a PD bureaucrat
with the least-common-denominator officer in mind, that weapon will
have training wheels.

(I know, I know, that was *obvious* flamebait, and I walked right into
 it.  s/he couldn't possibly have actually meant that last
 paragraph...)

-Jeff Moore (jbm@sbi.com)

 * Picture your favorite pithy saying, rock lyric, or quotation from
 * an epic poem here.  Saves me the trouble.
From: unislc@unislc.slc.unisys.com (James Warren)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: fun things to shoot at
Date: 6 Nov 92 20:01:04 GMT
Article-I.D.: unislc.1992Nov6.172749.29798
Organization: Unisys Corporation SLC

#From article <RTARAZ.92Nov5125515@bigwpi.WPI.EDU>, by rtaraz@bigwpi.WPI.EDU (Ramin Taraz):
# 
# After going to an indoor range for many times, I would like to take my
# Taurus 92 out side for a while.  I like to know what are some fun
# things to shoot at. (i.e.  A television tube should be alot of fun)
# 
# rtaraz
# 

Computer terminals ought to be fun.

2 liter pop bottles full of water are fun.
Old pumpkins, squash, etc are great fun, too.
From: fcrary@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (Frank Crary)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Colt Sporter mags
Date: 13 Nov 92 12:29:49 GMT
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder

In article <9211122107.AA26778@mmddvan.mdd.comm.mot.com> booth@mdd.comm.mot.com (Greg Booth) writes:
#The word from my brother, who is the Duke of Connaughts Own Rifles
#militia unit in Vancouver, is that the plastic mags suck, the lips wear out
#quickly and cause jams. He and most of his colleagues, buy
#surplus metal M16 mags, clean em and use those.
#The plastic mags are apparently intended as a 1-use item.

Are these magazines all plastic? The magazines for Glock pistols, for
example, are mostly plastic but have metal lips. Does anyone
know how subject to wear such plastic/metal magazines are?

                                                  Frank Crary
                                                  CU Boulder
From: viking@iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Defense revisited
Date: 13 Nov 92 12:29:41 GMT
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames IA

mikea@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Michael A. Atkinson) writes:

#If the guy makes no threatening move, and still does not obey, I will
#repeat myself.  If he understands what I'm saying, and does not obey, I
#should shoot him; on the premise that if somebody is good and ready to
#shoot you, your options are to flee (too late, he's already had a chance),
#obey, or fight back.  If he's going to fight back, I don't want to get
#hurt. 

	Might I suggest that detente' is the better solution?  Don't
forget that we cannot assume the hardened, experienced criminal here.
I know I still freeze in some situations that turn out to be life-and-
death circumstances.  In my case, it was while riding the motorcycle and
a large metal object rolled into my path.  "Swerve left or right?" was
the choice I had to make.  I did neither.  Hitting the brakes *HARD*
was the instinctive move after twenty years of riding, and luckily my
brakes saved me.  My reflexes for swerving sure didn't.  With the guy
in your living room, perhaps he's filling his drawers and just too
shocked to move?  No, I wouldn't bet my life on it either, but if those
hands are visible, so long as he's not moving I doubt I'll be firing.

	I also submit that this must be decided on a case-by-case basis,
but you clearly have the advantage and won't lose it so long as the
perp is frozen.  It might be wise to retreat to a safe portion of the
room, such as a corner or where you'll have a better view of the doors
and windows.  He might have friends.

< Dan Sorenson, DoD #1066 z1dan@exnet.iastate.edu viking@iastate.edu >
<  ISU only censors what I read, not what I say.  Don't blame them.  >
<  "This isn't an answer, it's a pagan dance around a midnight fire  >
<   written in intellectual runes." -- Rich Young                    >
From: dpike@oavax.csuchico.edu (Dan Pike)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Opinions requested
Date: 9 Nov 92 23:48:27 GMT
Organization: California State University, Chico

In article <9211041408.AA11675@techops.cray.com> Charles Hubbert,
u4944@techops.cray.com writes:
#.357 Mag, good compromise with .38 Spl for plinking, but might be
#marginal on deer
#
#.41 Mag, relatively expensive to shoot, could my wife shoot it for fun?
#
#.44 Mag, seems to be the favorite among revolver hunters, is it too
#much for a first pistol (but NOT first firearm), could my wife shoot
#with .44 Spl. loads?  
#
#I am definitly leaning towards double action, Ruger and S&W are front
runners
#but are there others I should look at?

I would say you should definately look at Taurus brand revolvers.  I
believe they tend to be a little less expensive and are the only brand
that I know of that come with a lifetime warranty.

I bought a Taurus .357 and have been very happy with it.  I used to go
shooting with a friend who carried a Ruger .41 magnum.  I preferred the
feel of my .357 but that could be biased since his was the only .41
magnum that I have ever shot.  I'm not saying you should definately buy a
Taurus but I think you should give them a look.  I know I have been very
happy with mine.
From: hollombe@polymath.tti.com (The Polymath)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Psychology in Defense (was: Arms to bear)
Date: 6 Nov 92 14:24:17 GMT
Organization: The Cat Factory

In article <1992Oct31.203313.18498@pbhyf.PacBell.COM> malodah@pbhyf.pacbell.com (Martin A. Lodahl) writes:

}A friend of mine always felt that a 12 ga. pump gun was the best choice,
}as the sound of racking a shell into the chamber would probably be 
}enough to immobilize the average thug.  I once accomplished the same
}end by chambering a round in a .45 auto, so I think he may have something
}there.
}
}So what's the net wisdom on this?

A lot of people think the sound of racking a 12 ga. is enough reason to
choose a pump over an autoloader in itself.  Ayoob disagrees.  He thinks
it might tell the bad guy "This idiot just _now_ decided he needs to load
his gun."

Given the conflicting opinions, I remain neutral on the subject (but I'm
buying a Remington 870 Police Magnum -- a pump gun -- on recommendation of
a couple of SWAT veterans).

The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe, M.A., CDP, aka: hollombe@polymath.tti.com)
Head Robot Wrangler at Citicorp
3100 Ocean Park Blvd.   (310) 450-9111, x2483
Santa Monica, CA  90405
From: efk00@cd.amdahl.com (Eddie Kieger)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Little-known membership benefits of the NRA
Date: 11 Nov 92 01:17:38 GMT
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA


In article <9211090626.AA13672@relay2.UU.NET>, m0102@tnc.UUCP (FRANK
NEY) writes:
#
#
#I guarantee that the NRA sticker is used by the DC police as probable
#cause to search your vehicle for contraband firearms.

Is this really legal (as in upheld in court)??
I knoiw they probably WOULD search you in any case, but could they make 
it hold up in a court as probable cause, or will they have to "invent"
something else (and we ALL know THAT doesn't happen, right??)??


Don't tread on me..........................................I bite
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Eddie Kieger                             efk00@cd.amdahl.com 
For Pay:      System Design Engineer     Amdahl Corp.
              Bringing you better mainframe computers
For Fun:      "River Rat"                SBU-XI SPECWARGRU1 (USNR)
              Bringing hellfire and brimstone to a river near you!
From: Larry.Huttunen@EBay.Sun.COM (Larry Huttunen)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: LONG, rec.guns discussion
Date: 13 Nov 92 04:10:39 GMT

I think your moderation of rec.guns is just fine.
Keep on doing what you're doing.  If there's a vote,
I choose:

#>> XX remain as is. <<<
    -- discover or elect a new moderator.
    -- un-moderate the group, as Mr. Klausner has requested.
    -- suggest that an alt group be created, splitting us into moderated
       and unmoderated forums.

You are providing a service to the netnews community
by minimizing the noise/non-relevant postings.

Keep it up,
Larry
laryh@ebay.sun.com
From: pauly@netcom.com (Paul Yoshimune)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Laser Sights - The State of the Art
Date: 9 Nov 92 14:27:13 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)

In article <uiVXTB1w164w@upchrch.UUCP> upchrch!joel@peora.sdc.ccur.com (Joel Upchurch  ) writes:
#scylax!root@uunet.UU.NET (Operator) writes:
#
## I like the concept of laser sights but if they are to be more than just 
## a gimmick, technology has to produce a much more rugged product, easy to
## calibrate without tools and with durable accuracy.  I hope it doesn't take
## long.
#
#I think laser sights will be a lot more useful when gun makers offer
#optional frames with the laser sight mounts built-in. It seems to me
#that this would offer a much more compact and convienient package than a
#add-on mount. It shouldn't have as many alignment problems and the
#switch for the laser could be build right into the frame, say next to
#and above the trigger guard or into the grip. Adding a mount in the
#frame should only add a few dollars to the cost of the pistol and you
#could either buy the pistol with the laser already installed or drop it
#in later. This could make a great law enforcement duty weapon.

Actually, it would be nice if they could get the laser into a cylinder narrow
enough to double as the recoil spring guide rod.  That way, the laser would add
nothing at all to the dimensions of the gun, and the triggering mechanism 
could be similar to those used on cameras: when the trigger is depressed part-
way, the beam would be activated...

-- 
DVC,
  Paul

Paul Yoshimune
pauly@netcom.com
From: dlo@druwa.ATT.COM (OlsonDL)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: fun things to shoot at
Date: 12 Nov 92 23:38:07 GMT




Some years ago, I was told that you can get a fairly good idea of what
a bullet would do to a human body by shooting into a phone book that
is soaked with water.  Whether or not that's an urban legend, I don't
know, but it does give interesting results with different bullet types
and calibers.

I also like to shoot at what are called "exploding targets".  They are
2" square with a 1" orange circle in the middle and have a sticky backing
that allows you to attach them to some other surface.  If you hit inside
the circle with a .22 or greater caliber, the target will explode with a
*loud* KABOOM!
--
David Olson   dlo@druwa.ATT.COM
"Keep in mind that I am speaking from Cambridge Massachusetts, which is
 about as far out as you can get."  Robert Reich, economic advisor to
 Bill Clinton, on "This Week with David Brinkley" 11/08/92