HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,talk.politics.misc,soc.culture.bulgaria,soc.culture.turkish
Subject: Re: 'Greece Is Black Sheep Of EC,' New York Times Says.
Date: 30 Aug 92 20:53:22 GMT





<1992Aug29.154544.2468@ulowell.ulowell.edu>
cshi@cs.ulowell.edu (Chunde Shi)

>>  "Greece is Black Sheep of EC," New York Times Says

>All reasons behind this and other Greece(orthodox) bashing in media started 
>recently are because Greece oppose millitary intervention in Bosnia.

Your saying it is 'Greece bashing' doesn't change the facts. If you choose 
to correct 'New York Times' on a technical error, that is fine. You cannot 
dismiss its thesis, however, without somehow showing us that what it said 
about Greece is not true. Further, if the fact angers you, then you state 
it without any ambiguity. 

Serdar Argic

                     'This war quickly developed into one of extermination. 
                      We closed the roads and mountain passes that might 
                      serve as ways of escape for the Tartars [Turks] and 
                      then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)
From: gcf@panix.com (Gordon Fitch)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.theory,soc.culture.bulgaria,soc.culture.turkish
Subject: Re: Time to Get Rid of the Nation-State? (was:  Re: THE NEW BULLY OF THE BALKANS [ Part 4 from 4 ])
Date: 3 Sep 92 03:05:15 GMT
Organization: mydog in exile

| In article <1992Sep2.170113.24965@panix.com> gcf@panix.com (Gordon Fitch) writes:
| 
| >As it appears that we are not ready for anarchy yet, and must
| >have some form of government, how about utilizing the United
| >Nations to take over some of the work? Surely Bosnia, Somalia,
| >Afghanistan and Cambodia would be better off under a neutral 
| >U.N. administration of military and police functions than they
| >are subjected to competing warlords and religious fanatics.

nelson_p@apollo.hp.com (Peter Nelson) writes:
|   As I indicated in an earlier posting, I'm currently reading
|   an excellent book by Byron Farwell called _Queen Victoria's
|   Little Wars_ about Britian's conquests and maintainance of
|   her Empire duing the Victorian reign.  
| 
|   One of the fascinating "discoveries" that the British could
|   never get used to was that the peoples in the conquered
|   territories were not always bursting with gratitude at the 
|   gifts of order, civilization, and Good Government bestowed
|   on them by the British.   Seeing the tribal chaos of Africa,
|   or the 200 or so principalities, kingdoms, and so forth of
|   the Indian subcontinent, or constant tribal warfare of
|   Afghanistan, the British thought that surely these natives 
|   would welcome with open arms the Queen's Regiments rather
|   than to continue to be "subjected to competing warlords
|   and religious fanatics".   

I think it's equally patronizing to assume that the majority
of the Bosnian people want to be subjected to civil war.
But maybe they do.  It's easy not to find out, and just let
the thugarchy run its course.

I was not thinking of the U.N. as either a cover for the
United States, or any other imperial power.  Its only
function would be to supply enough force to make warlording
unprofitable.   I don't know whether it would work or not,
but now that certain countries in Western Europe have
given every encouragement to bring the dissolution of
Yugoslavia about, with the predictable resultant chaos,
perhaps they could bestir themselves and their bank
accounts to do something to remedy the situation.

What I'm really getting at is that the "nation", as a
concept, is evidently worthless at protecting people's
rights and safety.  We should be trying to find alterna-
tives to it.
-- 
 )*(    Gordon Fitch    )*(    gcf@panix.com    )*(
( 1238 Blg. Grn. Sta.,  NY NY 10274 * 718.273.5556 )
Xref: sparky soc.culture.yugoslavia:8425 soc.culture.greek:8322 soc.culture.europe:8001 soc.culture.bulgaria:1302
From: buis@buengc.bu.edu (Biomed Dept I.S.L.)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: Independent Slavo-Macedonia
Date: 31 Aug 92 08:37:06 GMT
Reply-To: buis@buengc.bu.edu (Lou Buis)
Followup-To: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Organization: College of Engineering, Boston University, Boston, MA, USA

In article <1992Aug31.031535.20291@usage.csd.unsw.OZ.AU> 
8800529@hydra.maths.unsw.EDU.AU writes:
>>
>>	Regarding the people in Greek Macedonia, all of them, 
>>	except the turists, are greek citizens, meaning they have
>>	greek id's, passports, do the greek military service if 
>>	needed, etc. But they may feeel ethic Vlachs, Macedonians,
>>	Bulgarians, or whatever.
>
>	Ok but you insist on ignoring how the Greek people feel about
>the Macedonian situation. They also feel Macedonien. They also feel 
>robed of their culture. And it does not help when the opposition is
>using elements of their history to represent them selves.

	I agree. There are quite a few Macedonians (most of them in
Greek Macedonia) who consider themselves ethnic Greeks. I am not refeering
now to the Greeks who moved to Greek Macedonia 70 years ago, but the ones 
who have lived there for centuries. Most of them have Greek national 
identity. And they have all the rights to clame the Macedonian Hellenic 
history. 

	When compared to the Macedonians from the Republic of Macedonia,
the difference is that the previous besides being Macedonians - are Greek.
The former, besides beeing Macedonians in many cases don't want to be
anything else. In this case, being a Macedonian means being a part of a 
specific culture developed (imposed NOT by their will) in Vardar Macedonia 
in the last 70 years. 

	But, yes, I do understand your point, and the source of angryness 
and possible confusion regarding the term Macedonian.

	Is there any other solution than forcing the people in the Republic of 
Macedonia to change their name, or to force them to become Greek?


>	Example is the Star of the Macedon kings. Why did they put it 
>on the flag. TELL ME ???


	I wish I could, my friend. It still puzzles me. I know that the
Macedonian Parliament voted for it, but I don't think it's a final decidion. 

	I also think that historicaly it is a nonsence, and politicaly a VERY 
bad move.



	Regards,

		Lou



Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: 8800529@hydra.maths.unsw.EDU.AU ()
Subject: Re: SKOPJE'S SWISS DREAMS
Organization: school of Mathematics UNSW
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 06:29:30 GMT

>
>Look, I think that in the past there were reasons for worries of political
>ambitions from somewhere. But as far as I can see - the Macedonian
>government and people will come to realities with many history facts and
>realities, and all claims for "minorities" and territories will disappear
>(in case there are such at present). And I do understand the frustration
>when you talk about "history theft". But see Michael, opening a society,
>and when it becomes a truly democratic one, the politicians in the Rep. of
>Macedonia will take another stand and no claims will exist during the
>future. But pushing Macedonia back into YU, makes matters worse (IMHO).
>

	That is all good and sounds promising. What is the logic behind
the use of the star of the ancient Makedon kings ? You see a country like
the Skopjien one will need suport. It will not be able to survive. Now
depending on who gives it that help, it will expect favours. Greece included.
So it will not be such a perfect world as it has repetetively been proven.


>>  Michael.
>
>Regards
>
>Luben

	George
From: rika@informix.com (Rika Tsitsinia)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.greek
Subject: Re: Macedonia: History and Reality
Date: 31 Aug 92 22:10:05 GMT
Organization: Informix Software, Inc.

In article <9224423.7722@mulga.cs.mu.OZ.AU> sachz@montebello.ecom.unimelb.EDU.AU (SAS) writes:
>
>On the Macedonian Matter:
>
>          This letter is dedicated to the Freedom Fighters
>                of Macedonia E V E R Y W H E R E
>
>
>        MACEDONIA: HISTORY AND REALITY

	The rest of the long article is deleted. However, anyone who
    still believes that Greeks are paranoid when crying about the
    rewriting and stealing of their culture/history by Skopjie had
    better read this. We haven't seen much of this in the last few
    years, since Skopjie tries to keep a low profile until it is
    labeled Macedonia.

	Georgios
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.europe
From: sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog)
Subject: Bretagne and Britain
Followup-To: soc.culture.europe
Organization: Enea Data AB
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1992 21:51:57 GMT

Hans Rancke-Madsen (rancke@diku.dk) writes:
>>>Great Britain for example. France has a province with the same name.
>>Again the same mistake. Great Britain is the heart of what is known as
>>British whereas Bretagne is just a small province.
>
>Rather a good example for the other side, really. The name came
>originally from the French province, but got "transferred" to
>Great Britain (Perhaps transferred is the wrong word to use
>here, but I can't think of a better one. I don't want to imply
>that the French province lost the name, just that they lost the
>exclusive copyright).

Now, wait this seems completely out of touch. The Romans named
their island province Britannia. The name was derived from the
Celtic name of the Picts, themselves probably not a Celtic people,
who were living there.

Bretagne got its name from the Celts immigrating to this area in
9th century from England, in which the Anglo-Saxons had become 
the dominating people.

Then here might be some borrowing forth and back, but the name is
originally of Celtic and Latin origin, and neither the French,
nor the Brits had very much to do with it.

Using it as an example in the Macedonia discussion seems useless
to me, since the English distinguishes Britain from Brittany, while 
the French has chosen to use Bretagne for both. (And I presume seldom
says only "Bretagne" for Britain, but must add "Grande").
-- 
Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - sommar@enea.se
Life is wonderful when the wonderlife is full
Xref: sparky soc.culture.yugoslavia:8384 soc.culture.greek:8276 soc.culture.bulgaria:1272
From: delval@Csli.Stanford.EDU (Alvaro del Val)
Subject: Re: Media and politics (was Re: 'Greece Is Black Sheep Of EC')
Organization: Stanford University CSLI
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1992 22:54:50 GMT

In article <rsakella.715110664@p4.cs.man.ac.uk> rsakella@p4.cs.man.ac.uk (Rizos Sakellariou) writes:
>cshi@cs.ulowell.edu (Chunde Shi) writes:
>
>>>>>  "Greece is Black Sheep of EC," New York Times Says
>>>All reasons behind this and other Greece(orthodox) bashing in media started 
>>>recently are because Greece oppose millitary intervention in Bosnia.
>
>Hmm, very interesting...
>I don't know whether your reasoning is true or not, but it appears to me
>that very often western media are used in order to exercise pressure on 
>countries and to justify already taken political decisions. Personally, 
>I find difficult to understand how the media discover so many things to
>discredit a nation (sometimes characterising it as suffering from paranoia), 
>exactly at the same time that its government has a different opinion... 
>It seems more than a coincidence, doesn't it?
>
>--rizos

Governments often have many more sources of information than the
media, and as a result government sources are a rather valuable source
of news. So one reason is that this information is fed to them by the
interested governments when the occasion is appropriate. The
information might well be true, so I'm not saying that the media are
simply loyal servants of the government, but they can easily be used
for political purposes. Furthermore, even if the media already has
some discrediting information about a given country A, this will only
become newsworthy when A moves to the focus of the government's
foreign policy, which often coincides with A's government "having a
different opinion". So again, the side-effect is that the media will
only publish it when it is more useful to their own government. They
are also in this way making a favour to their government, which is a
good way to ensure future access to government sources and thus to
future information.

I'm being quite charitative here, by the way. Some people (e.g.  Noam
Chomsky) would argue rather forcefully that these "coincidences" are
part of very deliberate disinformation campaigns in which the media
are quite willing participants. But I'll suspend my opinion on this
for now.

Alvaro


Xref: sparky soc.culture.yugoslavia:8431 soc.culture.greek:8337 soc.culture.europe:8014 talk.politics.misc:43272 talk.politics.theory:3976 soc.culture.bulgaria:1308 soc.culture.turkish:9603
From: abrodnik@watdragon.uwaterloo.ca
Subject: Re: Time to Get Rid of the Nation-State?
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 05:21:28 GMT

In article <1992Sep3.012948.13289@risky.ecs.umass.edu> mirsip@risky.ecs.umass.edu (Ivan Popstefanija) writes:
>Gordon Fitch writes:
>
>>When I read of the innumerable small ethnic groups killing each
>>other in the Balkans, it becomes clear to me that the idea of the
>>nation-state, which appeared so attractive to liberals in the
>>early 20th Century, has simply failed.  It no longer appears to
>>be anything but an excuse for people to kill one another, and
>>for what?  So they can be oppressed by thugs who speak their own
>>language instead of thugs who speak some other language.
>
>  A state with garanteed individual rights  and  NOT garanteed rights
>for nations is, IMO, solution for multi ethnic society, but that is not
>the way the Serbs, Croats or Slovenians see it. What can one do?  

Hm, but is right for education in mother tongue (for example) a
national or individual right? And another question. Why the
country/state is (should be) formed in general anyway?

Regards,

Andrej
From: 8800529@hydra.maths.unsw.EDU.AU ()
Subject: Re: THE NEW BULLY OF THE BALKANS [ Part 3 from 4 ]
Organization: school of Mathematics UNSW
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 00:17:13 GMT

	I have only one question which is constantly ignored. What the hell
is the Star of the ancient Makedon kings doing on their flag !!!!
I mean the Albaniens disagree with it and the Shopjiens desided to
place a lion on the flag (Or is it a two headed eagle) but also include
the star !!!! Why the star. Isn't that clear enough for those dealing
with the question of Skopjiens intentions ? Goes to show that after a
possible recognition they will slowly drift towards the theory that
they are true decendents of the ancient Makedoniens with all the

extentions to teritorial disputes of the ancient Makedonia belongs
to them. Are they looking for a long term relationship with there neighbour.
Here is my unfortunate gues at what is going to happen to that country.
	One Albaniens will take their part from their republic as well as
from kosovo (is it called that) from pre Yougoslavia. They will not be
able to support themselvs and either join A new Yougoslavia or become an
economicly supported puppet by either Bulgaria or Turkey. Case on
they will fade into non existance as Bulgaria will slowly mix
the cultures and make a uniform people out of the two countries. 
Turkey on the other hand will use them to creat tention in the region
but as a result will isolate them from all neighbours. This will
not live for long enough though. Their best card is with Greece.
They have the EC, NATO. They are the more Economicly powerful country
in the regeon. They can (And have already) ensured their boarders.
To Greece they can offer something. They are their road to Europe
to other countries they have nothing to offer. They are still
holding out though. 
	Oh well let's see were the logic of the Star of the ancient Makedon
kings will get them.
	George


Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog)
Subject: Re: Canada's voice in Bosnia Conflict (General Lewis MacKenzie)
Organization: Enea Data AB
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1992 15:22:38 GMT

Muris Cicic (cicic@cc.uow.edu.au) writes:
)Gen. Mackenzie has done
)everything in his power to save the Serbs.  Why he's  done that, history
)will tell us, hopefully.  No human being after month spent in Sarajevo would
)claim what he claims.

And yet he has spent a month a Sarajevo this summer. Have you?

)And don't forget, in one moment he was a "prisoner"
)in Lukavica barracks  for 72 hours.  He later stated being forcefully kept
)due to security reasons.  What that period produced, some compromising photos,
)or large amount of money,

Sure. And this is true for any other military advisor as well
who are discouraging military operations?




-- 
Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - sommar@enea.se
F|rst till kvarn f}r f|rst vankiva
From: dik@cwi.nl (Dik T. Winter)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.greek
Subject: Re: EDUCATION SPECIAL: MAP OF THE WORLD
Date: 23 Aug 92 23:58:23 GMT
Followup-To: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Organization: CWI, Amsterdam

In article <1992Aug23.204259.23473@enea.se> sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog) writes:
 > Rizos Sakellariou (rsakella@p4.cs.man.ac.uk) writes:
 > >Your example is completely unsuccessful. There are no analogies with
 > >the case of Macedonia. The Grand Duchy is much greater than the Belgian
 > >province and is the heart of what is known as Luxembourgh.
 > 
 > On my map, the two area are about equal in size, but it looks
 > to me that the Belgian province is somewhat greater.
 > 
Checking the Encyclopedia:
		Area (km2)	Pop (1972)
Luxembourg:	4418		217211
Luxembourg:	2586		339848

So while one is larger in area the other is larger in population.
BTW, the second is the country.
-- 
dik t. winter, cwi, kruislaan 413, 1098 sj  amsterdam, nederland
home: bovenover 215, 1025 jn  amsterdam, nederland
dik@cwi.nl
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,eunet.politics,talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.theory,soc.culture.bulgaria,soc.culture.turkish
From: delval@Csli.Stanford.EDU (Alvaro del Val)
Subject: Re: Master Untrue Totally Lying Unit: Take a course in Math
Organization: Stanford University CSLI
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1992 23:20:03 GMT

In article <BtpFyv.43u@news.cso.uiuc.edu> ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis ) writes:
>han@anadolu.michigan.com (hasan.b.mutlu) writes:
>
>><BtMJqC.7A4@news.cso.uiuc.edu>
>>ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis )
>
>>>>Then we noticed the 'tamtam.' There's a little pronged fork sticking up 
>>>>at the end of his abdomen.
>
>>> Very typical Master Untrue Totally Lying Unit(s) answer.  When he has
>>> nothing to say, he replies with an offense.
>
>>Ever seen a 'tamtam?' You know, those centipedelike things with wooden
>>'palikaryas' in rows. They're sold mostly in 'yunan' import shops, for
>>wall decoration. 
> 
> Why every Turk is affraid to condemn your behavior? 
>
[...]
>-- 
>---> Panos Tamamidis
>     University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign

Well, *your* "arguments" are usually full of insults and UPPERCASE
screams which you appear to think are more compelling just because
they are in uppercase, yet I do not expect any greek to condemn your
behavior. So why should you expect any turk to condemn Mutlu's
behavior? Why should anybody be held responsible for the acts of
anyone else just because of shared nationality?

Alvaro

PS. This is completely independent of what I might think about
the substantive issues in Macedonia, Cyprus, or any other topic you
have dealt with. 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: dmatic@athena.mit.edu (Davor Matic)
Subject: Poor Innocent Nazi Serbs
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 00:19:04 GMT

	The State Department said that according to Red Cross officials, of 
the 11,704 prisoners registered in 19 detention centers they have been
permitted to visit in Bosnia, 9,848 are held by Serbian forces, 902 by
Muslim forces and 954 by Croatian forces.
	``Information we have obtained from visits to detention centers from
interviews with former detainees and from representatives of
international organizations and the media lead to the conclusion that
there is a pattern of serious and ongoing human rights abuses in many of
the detention centers, particularly in those operated by Serbian forces,
'' department spokesman Joe Snyder said.
	Snyder said there are reports of beatings, sexual abuse and even
executions in those centers. He said many of these reports were
credible.  
        But all this is understandable, because the whole world is united
against poor Serbs, and they have to fight back.  Since the first contact
between the Serbs and the world is their neighbours, they have to take it 
out on them.  So they are not Nazi, they are absolutely innocent and only
defending themselves from the rest of the world.  They don't wanna live with
anybody else, and they will soon get what they are asking for.  They will 
be all alone and totally isolated.  Maybe then they will start focusing their
creative energy against each other.  Possibly, in fifty years, there will be 
none of them left on the face of this planet...


Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: dmatic@athena.mit.edu (Davor Matic)
Subject: Re: WHO'S THE BIGGER NAZI?
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 18:21:24 GMT

In article <1992Sep3.184037.15349@husc3.harvard.edu>, stojanov@husc8.harvard.edu (Milan Stojanovic) writes:
|> In article <1992Sep3.194913.11137@athena.mit.edu> dmatic@athena.mit.edu (Davor Matic) writes:
|> >In article <14337@goanna.cs.rmit.oz.au>, s902211@yallara.cs.rmit.OZ.AU (Zoran
|> >Kalenic) writes:
|> 
|> 
|> 
|> >I don't mean kill people like you, but maybe cut your tounges and fingers off
|> >and send you to an orthodox monastary. 
|> 
|> A Tudjman and Pavelic devotee?
|> No new approaches to the final solution of Serbian question in 
|> Croatia?   
|> 
|> Milan N. Stojanovic


No, Milan.  You are taking me out of context again.  You do this to
Tudjman all the time, too.  This is what you SERBS are good at, not 
Crotas.   How conveniently you deleted the part of the article that
shows this statement clearly.  

Regards,
--- Davor
From: ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis )
Subject: Re: Time to Get Rid of the Nation-State? (was: Re: THE NEW BULLY OF THE BALKANS [ Part 4 from 4 ])
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 02:35:15 GMT

mirsip@risky.ecs.umass.edu (Ivan Popstefanija) writes:

>  A state with garanteed individual rights  and  NOT garanteed rights
>for nations is, IMO, solution for multi ethnic society, but that is not
>the way the Serbs, Croats or Slovenians see it. What can one do?  

 Leave them alone.  They were living without such problems in the past.
 
> Ivan Popstefanija 

-- 
---> Panos Tamamidis
     University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign