HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: armstrng@cs.dal.ca (Stan Armstrong)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Christian Sex (Let him who is without sin...)
Date: 30 Sep 92 05:41:10 GMT
Organization: Math, Stats & CS, Dalhousie University, Halifax, NS, Canada

In article <Sep.29.02.34.46.1992.2869@athos.rutgers.edu> jcarroll@ferris.cray.com (Jeff Carroll) writes:
>
>I also note that you have left out of your citations:
>
>John 8:1-11 ("He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw
>		a stone at her")
>
I am curious to hear what people understand this saying to mean.

As many of you know most modern scholars, including the evangelical
translators of the New International Version, do not believe that this
text should be included in the Bible because it does not appear in
the oldest and most reliable manuscripts. But suppose we either set
that issue aside, or believe that nevertheless it does report an
actual saying of Jesus, or, at least, that the Holy Spirit intended
it to be part of the revelation most Christians through the centuries
have received and trusted.

The question remains, what does God intend us to make of this? Might it
mean, for instance, that I am not to discipline my children because
when I was a child I was guilty of the same things? I think not, but
then what does the passage mean?

I suppose it comes back to the old distinction between being judgmental
and making a judgment. That appeals to me, but while the distinction
is clear in theory, I worry that it may oversimplify the true
situation. The judgment that Jesus makes that moneychanging in the
Temple is wrong seems to be accompanied by actions that reveal a kind
of indignation that in us point to the judgment that we are better
than the ones we judge.

-- 
Stan Armstrong. Religious Studies Dept, Saint Mary's University, Halifax, N.S.
Armstrong@husky1.stmarys.ca | att!clyde!watmath!water!dalcs!armstrng
From: julian@sfu.ca (Julian Shillcock)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Damnation
Date: 5 Oct 92 02:11:40 GMT
Organization: Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., Canada

cotera@aspen.ulowell.edu writes:

>The question of eternal damnation has arisen several times in this network.  I
>think I'd like to offer my thoughts about this because I've never seen them
>expressed by anyone in the universe.  As I see it death and hell are
>synonimous.  Quite often they are mentioned together, e.g. Rev. 1:18.  However,
>also in Rev. we see Christians in heaven.  I surmise from this that all
>non-Christians go to hell.  Before you flame me (pun intended) for this let me
>continue.  At Jesus' second coming He, along with all Christians, will rule
>over Israel for 1000 years.  Then everybody will be resurrected and judged
>according to their deeds.  Everyone whose name is not in the Book of Life will
>be thrown into the lake of fire.  Any comments will be greatly appreciated.
>--Ray Cote

julian responds:

Yes, I have not seen enough discussion of these points. But I have an
idea that might be relevant.
I think it is well known that eternity does not simply mean "time without end",
as I understand the term it has more to do with quality of life than the
quantity. So in heaven it is not that we are there "for ever" but that 
there is no time by which to mark our stay.
I can post more about this idea of time being simply a physical construct
(rather like carteisan coordinate systems ) that has nothing to do with
life in heaven (or death in hell), if anyone is interested. So, given
that people in heaven do not experience time, I make the assumption that
(the hyperthetical) people in hell do not. Now, what kind of existence
is possible in a lake of fire? I feel that this is both a warning and
a blessing. It is a warning that our lives here have eternal consequences
but that refusing to accept God's way does not necessarily result in
never-ending punishment but in non-existence. The lake of fire presumable
burns up all that is cast into it. It is not possible for ex-human beings
to exist there. This I take to be a blessing. I find it very, very difficult
to take christians seriously who believe that a loving God will send
little children who were born in the wrong country or at the wrong time,
so that they did not hear the Gospel, or that people born into abusive
homes, who live a violent life because they were treated badly, into hell
for the simple reason that they refused his invitation.
If someone responds that we all have a free choice *in this life* to 
follow God then I will disagree: we do not. Tell this to a kid born in
a black family in a porr area of New York and say that they have as free
a choice as I did born into a christian home in London, UK. 
So, hell exists, but does not contain people. Further comments?
From: allegra!lieuwen@allegra.att.com (Dan Lieuwen)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Questions about the Bible
Date: 30 Sep 92 05:41:21 GMT
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories, Murray Hill, NJ

If anyone is offended with your questions, the problem is theirs, not yours.

My personal solution to the problem is as follows:

1) God wanted to make something distinct from himself which could become like
    Him in some sense -- being finite, man can not attain fully to be like God,
    but he/she can approximate it.

2) For man to be like God, he/she had to have free will.  A robot does not
    fit the bill.

3) God being all knowing knew that some would fail in this quest He set before
    them.  However, the good of some men attaining deification outweighs
    the evil produced along the way by human failing.

    The "universe" (physical
    and spiritual) is a better place as a result of this deification than it
    would have been had man never existed.  The suffering is outweighed by
    the glory.

    This last point is the most debatable, and I often incline to Ivan in
    the Brothers Karamazov who rejected it out of hand (if one children must
    suffer to build the Kingdom of God, its not worth it is his argument).
    However, this is what I accept although not alwayswith a great deal
    of conviction.

    Dan
:
From: Steve.Gross@lambada.oit.unc.edu (Steve Gross)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: A Question to Christians
Date: 2 Oct 92 04:52:09 GMT
Organization: Extended Bulletin Board Service

Fred Temple writes:

>Why are so many Christians so arrogant?
>I say this because I have come across so many people who
>profess to be Christ-like but behave as though they are
>superior to all others.  Also, most of the Christians I have
>been in contact with seem to believe that if you don't believe
>exactly as they believe you are damned to Hell.  Furthermore,
>many Christians seem to believe that Christianity has an exclusive
>claim to morality.  Christians, please explain this to me.  Thank you.



---- I am a christian, and I can't.  And if you find any other christian
who says he/she can, I think they are lying.  The fact of teh matter is,
we are still human.  we make mistakes.  we are not gods, and we have no
right to act like one.  Don't take a christian to the pole because he/she
exhibits human characteristics.  Take the message they bring, and
scrutinize IT!!  It is far more important thatn any christian you will
meet.  Although, I guess you will meet some who say otherwise.

Jesus Christ is the only perfect person to have ever walked this earth. 
Although christians are continually being transformed into his image, it
is my opinion that no human will attain this in his/her lifetime.  So,
take the christian with a grain of salt, but test the message.  If it is
not true, I'd certainly like to know it, because I have devoted my life to
it. 


God Bless,
Steve.Gross
--
   The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the University of
     North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the Campus Office for Information
        Technology, or the Experimental Bulletin Board Service.
           internet:  bbs.oit.unc.edu or 152.2.22.80
From: kolassa@bio1.bst.rochester.edu (John Kolassa)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: A Question to Christians
Date: 30 Sep 92 05:31:57 GMT
Reply-To: kolassa@bio1.bst.rochester.edu (John Kolassa)
Organization: University of Rochester, Rochester NY

In article <Sep.27.21.56.34.1992.1173@athos.rutgers.edu>, templef@columbia.dsu.edu (Fred Temple) writes:
> Why are so many Christians so arrogant?
> I say this because I have come across so many people who
> profess to be Christ-like but behave as though they are
> superior to all others.  Also, most of the Christians I have
> been in contact with seem to believe that if you don't believe
> exactly as they believe you are damned to Hell.

> [It's called "original sin".  I.e. Christians aren't perfect either.
> 
> [[More of the moderators comments on lack of salvation for non-Christians
    deleted for brevity]]

One should note that not all Christian churches teach that one is damned for
denying central Christian dogma.  As clh pointed out, of course if one is
convinced that he is right about something, it logically follows that
those who disagree are wrong.  The consequences of being wrong vary from
church to church.  The Catholic Church teaches that not all of those who
are wrong are damned, although I guess the traditional teaching was that
the exceptions are rare.  The spirit of more people not visibly members
of the Church achieving salvation is more common in recent times.

-- 
Thanks, John Kolassa, kolassa@bio1.bst.rochester.edu
From: cnews@umr.edu (UMR Usenet News Post)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: References for learning Hebrew
Date: 3 Oct 92 06:07:38 GMT
Organization: University of Missouri - Rolla

In article <Sep.29.02.25.39.1992.2226@athos.rutgers.edu> robarr@sdcc3.ucsd.edu (Robert O'Barr) writes:
>I am interested in finding introductory level texts for learning to
>read hebrew.   I would appreciate any suggestions.
>
>Robert

The Christian Book Distributors catalog (Box 6000, Peabody, MA 01961-6000
ph. 508-977-5050 Customer Service, 508-977-5000 Orders) lists "Biblical
Hebrew Step-by-Step" by Menahem Mansoor for $10.95 ea. in 2 volumes.
Catalog dated Sept-Oct 92.

A computer program for learning "a full year's worth of Biblical Hebrew"
called "HebrewTools" for IBM-compatibles.  It includes a copy of
Menahem Mansoor's 254-page softcover book, "Biblical Hebrew Step-by-Step:
Volume 1."  $37.50.  Parsons Technology, One Parsons Drive, PO Box 100,
Hiawatha, IA 52233-0100, ph. 800-223-6925.

Scott Hayes
scotth@cs.umr.edu
From: e_p@unlinfo.unl.edu (edgar pearlstein)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Question on the Bible
Date: 2 Oct 92 04:45:37 GMT
Organization: University of Nebraska - Lincoln

mmh@cs.qmw.ac.uk (Matthew Huntbach) writes:

>If you were to read the New Testament, you would find that
>Christianity is all about recognising that the Old Testament
>Laws, some of which you quote, are superseded by a new vision


     I remind Mr. Huntbach of the following:

 Matthew 5:18.   For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, 
one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be 
fulfilled. 

[The relationship between the OT and NT is one of the classic debates
among Christians.  I'm not about to resolve it.  It's easy to fall
into extremes.  While Matthew Huntbach's posting takes a position that
not all may agree with, the particular segment quoted, and the
response given here, does not do justice to what he was saying.  Mat
5:18 is at the beginning of a sermon in which Jesus -- while not
abolishing the Law -- did suggest some interpretations of it that seem
intended to emphasize the intent rather than the letter.  If you read
the posting again, I believe Huntbach did not suggest that the OT was
abolished, but was trying to deal with it in a way compatible with
Jesus' intent.  Maybe you think he didn't do a good enough job.  But
I'd like to avoid having the discussion turn into a battle of
extremes.
  In particular, the original posting accused the Bible of supporting
slavery.  Huntbach's response was that the laws in the Bible were
not creating the institution, but rather were setting limits on it,
and that one could see humanitarian intent to those limits.  Do you
object to that view?  It seems quite compatible with Jesus' approach
in the Sermon on the Mount.  --clh]
From: jcarroll@ferris.cray.com (Jeff Carroll)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: A Question to Christians
Date: 29 Sep 92 06:27:06 GMT

> Why are so many Christians so arrogant?
> I say this because I have come across so many people who
> profess to be Christ-like but behave as though they are
> superior to all others.  Also, most of the Christians I have
> been in contact with seem to believe that if you don't believe
> exactly as they believe you are damned to Hell.  Furthermore,
> many Christians seem to believe that Christianity has an exclusive
> claim to morality.  Christians, please explain this to me.  Thank you.

I can't argue with very much of what you've said. Most Christians do believe
that God is literally going to damn some subset of humanity to hell. In fact
the Nicene Creed specifies that we believe that Jesus will "come to judge the
living and the dead".

Most Protestants believe that there are two places you can go when you die,
and they believe that they have reliable assurance that they are going to
heaven. (A milestone in the doctrine of "assurance" was John Wesley's
charismatic experience at a nonconforming prayer meeting in Aldersgate
Street, London.)  A corollary which is usually accepted without proof is that
people who don't have beliefs and practices sufficiently close to your own are
going to be sent to hell.

When you believe that you're one of God's special chosen people, it's not much
of a leap (especially if you're not concentrating on humility) to believe that
you're better than all those folks who are not chosen and going to hell.
(It does make logical sense, sort of, if you think about it.)

Monotheists in general believe that morality is basically "what God wants".
Christians believe, in opposition to other monotheists, that God actually
got down on earth, walked around for thirty years or so, and made the set
of moral pronouncements that appear in the New Testament of the Bible.

Many Christians believe that what's in the Bible is literally what Jesus
said, and that what of the Bible he didn't say was inspired by God, and
that that should be the end of the argument. In that world view, anyone who
thinks that morality or theology or literary interpretation is more complicated 
than that is clearly in the wrong, and is worth listening to only inasmuch as
is necessary to point out the error of that person's ways.

I have posted here in the past about my personal struggle with the doctrine
of damnation; I won't rehash except to say that Christians who disagree
or struggle with any of the dogmas I've just outlined are tolerated in
parts of the church, as long as they stay quiet.

Jeff Carroll
carroll@reston.cray.com
From: gross@monarch.rtp.dg.com (Gene Gross)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: martyrdom
Date: 28 Sep 92 01:10:30 GMT
Organization: Data General Corporation, RTP, NC.

In article <Sep.17.00.36.29.1992.23086@athos.rutgers.edu> carroll@reston.cray.com (Jeff Carroll) writes:
>
> MINER@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu:
>
>>The nineteenth-century view of man is also gone--annihilated by the
>>horrors of the twentieth century, when the most enlightened,
>>intellectual, professorial, rational nation in Europe
>>perpetrated the horrors of the Holocaust.  And we in the late 20th
>>have it no better.
>

(deleted some preliminary comments)

>Thousands, perhaps millions, have been martyred for the cause of Christ
>in the Christian era. As the technology of torture and murder "improves",
>and the spectre of the totalitarian megastate continues to haunt us, it
>seems likely that many latter-day martyrs have died more horrible and
>painful deaths than Christ Himself.
>
>Is this heresy? Does the idea strike anyone else as odd? What special
>preferments might such martyrs expect in the hereafter?

Jeff, funny thing about torture, the person going through it can't seem
to recall that there are other forms that are worse.  This is not meant
to be a light comment.  It is rather like a thread on another group
about two years ago about whether it was worse to be shot by one type of
weapon versus another -- both weapons were military weapons capable of
killing.  Makes no difference which of the guns shoots you, it still
does damage and hurts!!  (Yes, voice of experience!)

When I became a Christian, I surrendered my life to Christ.  What
happens to me is not nearly as important as following Christ.  If this
means torture and death, then so be it.  I'm not thrilled at the idea of
pain and suffering, but I trust that Christ will give me the strength I
need to endure if this is His will.  Nothing happens to me but what
Christ permits it.

As I've grown in Christ, I've come to understand what Paul meant when he
said that he was a bondslave to Christ.  That is, Paul chose to be the
Lord's slave.  This is the call to all Christians, but it is not forced
upon them.  As a slave, you have no say over your life or what you do.
Your Master makes this decision for you.  Christ suffered and died.  He
also told us not to expect any different treatment in this world.  So,
it is not amazing that we see martyrs who suffer greatly, maybe even
more than Jesus did, though I doubt it.

I doubt it because we have the promise that He will be with us always,
even to the end of the age.  However, God had to turn away from Jesus as
He died and bore our sins.  God cannot look upon sin without judgement.
He turned away from Jesus long enough for the atonement to occur.  For
Jesus, what worse agony to suffer than to suddenly know that a wall has
come between Him and the Father!?  I know of none.

Anyway, those are my thoughts.

En Agape,

Gene Gross
<><
From: ricko@ee.uts.edu.au (Rick Jelliffe)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Female - Male Sexuality
Date: 2 Oct 92 04:12:20 GMT
Organization: University of Technology, Sydney

foy@aero.org (Richard Foy) writes:

|Several serious books by women anthropologists, sociologists etc. have
|looked at the differences, between women and men, and humans and primates.

|They discuss the fact that human females do not show estrus. That is, there
|essentially no observable indication of a woman's state of fertility and
|that they may be sexually time. They also consider women
|being multiorgasimic and slower to orgasism. From this amd much other data
|they arrive at interesting conclusions regarding the evolution of humans.

|A major conclusion is that having multiple sex partners has been
|genetically advantageous for both females and males. Interesting?

No. Cart before the horse. Who cares about our genes' longterm antics
compared to our present & eternal happiness? Jesus ratified marriage at 
Cana.

-ricko
From: hudson@athena.cs.uga.edu (Paul Hudson Jr)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Noah's Arc
Date: 29 Sep 92 07:02:54 GMT
Organization: University of Georgia, Athens

I recall reading a post on one of these newsgroups which stated that Noah's
arc had been found.  I have recently read a book which indicates that 
Jim Erwin found the remains of the arc and I want to have a second look at
that information or any other information on the subject that may be
availiable.

Link Hudson
hudson@athena.cs.uga.edu

[There's a history of false conclusions about the Ark that would make
me very wary about claims like this.  I'm not saying it's false -- I
haven't read the book.  But it's an area where "urban legends" abound.
--clh]
From: mjenkins@alfred.ccs.carleton.ca (Michael Jenkinson)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Maranantha Ministries on CNN
Date: 6 Oct 92 03:50:52 GMT
Organization: Carleton University

I saw a clip on CNN last week on a group called Maranantha Ministries
who believe the rapture is set for later this month.

Unfortunately, I didn't catch the city from which the report
originated, so I don't know where that ministry is located.

Does anyone know that information? I would like to get in touch with
Maranantha Ministries because I'm doing my thesis on end-time
prophesy, and they would be a good source of information for me. 

Please e-mail any responses and any other information you think is
appropriate.

Thanks.

Michael Jenkinson
Graduate Student, Journalism
Carleton University
Ottawa

[Please respond directly via email.  Because of recent discussions
on the Oct 28 I'm not prepared to accept additional postings.
However I'm willing to help somebody gather information for his
thesis ...  --clh]
From: Steve.Gross@lambada.oit.unc.edu (Steve Gross)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Here's a good one.
Date: 5 Oct 92 02:10:27 GMT
Organization: Extended Bulletin Board Service

Hello all.  Here is a good one I thought everyone who has tried my riddles
will like.


	ADAM, GOD MADE FROM THE DUST,
	  BUT THOUGHT IT BEST TO MAKE ME FIRST.

	SO I WAS MADE BEFORE THE MAN, 
	  A PART OF GOD'S MOST HOLY PLAN.

	A LIVING "SOUL" I BECAME,
	  BUT ADAM FAILED TO CALL MY NAME.

	I DID MY MAKER'S LAW OBEY,
	  NOR EVER WENT FROM IT ASTRAY.

	THOUSANDS OF MILES, I GO IN FEAR,
	  BUT SELDOM ON EARTH DO I APPEAR.

	FOR PURPOSES WISE, WHICH GOD DID SEE,
	  HE PUT A LIVING "SOUL" IN ME.
	
	A "SOUL" FROM ME GOD DID CLAIM,
	  AND TOOK FROM ME THE "SOUL" AGAIN.

	SO WHEN FROM ME THE "SOUL" HAD FLED,
	  I WAS THE SAME AS WHEN FIRST MADE.

	WITHOUT HANDS OR FEET I GO,
	  I TRAVEL ON FROM POLE TO POLE.

	FROM MY PRESENCE A RAIN DOES FLY,
	  A CLOUD I FORM BENEATH THE SKY.

	I LABOR HARD BY DAY, BY NIGHT,
	  TO FALLEN MAN I GIVE GREAT LIGHT.

	THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE, YOUNG AND OLD,
	  DID BY MY DEATH GREAT LIGHT BEHOLD.

	NO RIGHT OR WRONG CAN I CONCEIVE,
	  THE SCRIPTURE I CANNOT BELIEVE.

	ALTHOUGH MY NAME THEREIN IS FOUND,
	  THEY ARE TO ME AN EMPTY SOUND.

	NOW WHEN THESE LINES YOU SLOWLY READ,
	  GO SEARCH YOUR BIBLE WITH ALL SPEED.

	FOR THAT MY NAME IS WRITTEN THERE,
	  I DO HONESTLY TO YOU DECLARE.


I hope this one will present a challenge to you all, and give you a good
test of what you know about your bibles.  It should be easy to all of you
who give it some thought.  I hope you have fun with it, and give it to
others to enjoy.  Anything I write is freely given, and can be goven to
anyone else at your discretion.  It can be printed, copied in newsletters,
given to other nets, groups, etc...  It doesn't matter to me.


God Bless, and have fun.
Steve.Gross
--
   The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the University of
     North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the Campus Office for Information
        Technology, or the Experimental Bulletin Board Service.
           internet:  bbs.oit.unc.edu or 152.2.22.80
From: wiggins@poppy.cs.odu.edu (Samuel E Wiggins)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Christian Sex
Date: 28 Sep 92 01:32:22 GMT
Organization: Old Dominion University, Norfolk, VA, USA

Here are some references in the Bible about sex:

Deuteronomy 22:22-29	about rape and adultery
Deuteronomy 23:17-18	about prostitution
Leviticus 18:6-18	about/defining incest
Romans 1:24-32		about homosexuality
Deuteronomy 27:21	about bestiality

And these are just a few I whipped out quickly from my Strong's concordance.
I'm not going to give my opinions on these things, because I don't think
they're as important as what the Bible has to say (And, the meaning of the
verses is pretty clear, anyway.)