From: uphrrmk@Msu.oscs.montana.edu
Subject: Re: Scummy behavior of pagan males
Reply-To: uphrrmk@Msu.oscs.montana.edu
Organization: Montana State University
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 00:12:47 GMT

In article <sNmcuB2w165w@hogbbs.scol.pa.us>, wce@hogbbs.scol.pa.us (Bill Eichman) writes:
>kumagic@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu (Stephen R. Figgins) writes:
>
>> A Heartland Pagan Fesitval's posters consistently picture naked busty
>> women and half-clothed men.  Why this standard?  Heartland also had
>> problems last year with the behavior of several drunken men, including
>> the sexual harassment of one participant.  In previous years the
>> Skyclad area of the festival consisted half of skyclad participants
>> and half of male gawkers who would set out chairs and stare at the
>> women who passed by. 
>
>Drunkenness at the festivals is getting to be a pain in the ass, isn't 
>it? Seems so to me, anyway. 
 I know the feeling... I'd been so turned off at some of the old Pagan meetings
I've gone to, that I just didn't want to go anymore.  Especially when one of
said drunken males grabs my hand for a circle dance and a chance to leer when
I'm BUSY!>
>Five years ago, at a festival like Starwood, the Long Dancer's could go 
>on all night, working the fire and invoking. The people left around the 
>fire after 2-3 am were utterly serious/joyous, turned on, kind and in 
>touch. To finish the long dance with that type of group is a thrill that 
>I cannot adequately voice.
>
>For the past few years, the crowd of drinking males gathered to watch the 
>dancing girls has been so thick that the Long Dancer's have been forced 
>away from the fire. My friends, who've been doing the Long Dance together 
>for the last ten years, now avoid the fire ring, hoping the tourists will 
>leave before dawn. At least we can still drum and sing together.
   this is the only thing that saved my happiness...I started going to big drum
jams...it's fabulous when you can get about 35 doumbeks, 2 bodhrans, (one of
them mine! joy!) a beer bottle, 5 indian drums, a bunch of hand cymbals,
(Zylles? Is that the way you spell them?) soem big bongoes, and a saxaphone
together at the same time.  Now I miss them terribly, and am trying to organize
a drum jam by flyers in Montana.>
>Perhaps this is just a natural byproduct of paganisms growing numbers, 
>popularity, and the rapidly growing segment of new, untrained, unread, 
>inexperienced pagans. 
>
>The drinking men look so sad and desperate and lonely. You'd think they'd 
>never seen a tit before. When i think of them I'm reminded of the 
>tremendous sexual pain and longing that men sometimes feel in this 
>tortured society of ours. 
>
>Well, maybe some will argue that sexual pain and longing is a natural and 
>good thing, and that joy in watching bodies is healthy paganism. Maybe 
>so, maybe so-- all I know is that it was a different scene, five years 
>ago.
> I wish I knew what it was like, five years ago...back then I was a lonely
practitioner, in a very Catholic small town.  There must be a way to get that
same feeling, that feeling of amiably doing something wonderful with people who
feel the same way, to be able to do whatever you feel like without feeling
crowded or gawked at.  
>> I can think of plenty more, these just leapt to mind as examples of
>> men's scummy behavior both within and without our community.  I would
>> be interested in hearing others examples of men's scummy behavior
>> within the pagan community.   Or am I the only one who notices this
>> stuff?  It has been said that men within the pagan community were
>> different than men outside the community in their relations to women.
>> I have said this is not very true.  What do others think?
Believe me, you're not the only one.  Let me share the story of Scuzzy Dave.

   Scuzzy Dave was a Pagan gent I met at the Pagan meetings in Minneapolis.
A blatant flirt, and rather arrogant gent who invariably wore combat fatigues
and far too much handbeaten silver; and what hair he had was very long.
My first impressions of him were, "Hmmm-- not a really nice guy, but he seems
harmless.'He joined in some fully clothed circle dances,(Midwinter in Minnesota
and cops circling the cauldron, don't ya know) and tended to try to take over
the proceedings whnever possible.  Not a nice guy, at all.
     Later, the Pagan Community split into two distinct camps--one who actually 
di a lot of Magik work, and the group Scuzzy Dave was in. (He is also known as
"Scary Dave" as opposed to my best buddy, "Fuzzy Dave" who was cute and
cuddly.}  The ones who did Magik were called the "Dave bashers", because Dave
was annoying, and a lot of "venting" was done about him.(read: serios
bitching.) You see, several times he tried to set up a "Sex magik" coven
which he tried to coerce many young minors into joining.  Also, Dave had
genital Herpes--untreated. I found out this little bit of info after
I came up to a female roommate's room with some tea to find-horror of horrors!
Scuzzy Dave seated in a lotus position on her futon, with a very contented
grin on his face, only a blanket covering some bits I've never wanted to see 
of Dave's.  Whatever, I thought. Lucky for said roommate that there was
protection available, or else she'd be yet another one lusting for this guy's
blood.  
     You see, he also owed many people money, and has since I've moved been
evicted from at least one place I know of, and reading Tarot in exchange for
dinners.  Also, he is a bit less arrogant lately, I hear, because he has also
gone bald, a very traumatic thing for him.  I hear he's also left behind the
fatigues for some rather conservative clothes.  He's still grabbing at 
female anatomy, though.

             Thus, the story of Scuzzy Dave.  A man who really gave the Pagan 
community a bad name, and a precious example of who not to be like as a Pagan.

>I think it's fascinating to watch people's ego's being triggered off by 
>your choice of words.
>
>I think I've seen nearly as many female jerks as male jerks at the 
>festivals-- though the females are more subtle, less grossly violent and 
>directly abusive. But there's a lot of women 'playing the game' of war 
>between the sexes, and a lot of men with torn hearts and egos. Is a 
>broken heart worse or better than a stared-at-tit?
>
>Just because there's a lot sex pain among both males and females doesn't 
>mean, however, that the males have carte'blanche to act like crude 
>idiots. I despise this "80's War between the Sexes" abusive male behavior 
>as much as you do. I've seen a _huge_ amount of it among so called pagan 
>men.
>
>I don't know if this means men are scum. I think it means our community 
>has a tremendous problem with denial and sex pain.
>
>Later, Bill












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