From: budaraju@cae.wisc.edu (Srinivas Budaraju)
Subject: Babri Mosque - some background - 4/10
Organization: U of Wisconsin-Madison College of Engineering
Date: 11 Dec 92 14:49:26 CST

The following are excerpts from an interview of Asghar Ali Engineer by Sridhar
D. Damle, a free-lance reporter for India Tribune (Chicago) and co-author with
Walter K. Anderson of the book "The Brotherhood in Saffron: The Rashtriya
Swayamsevak Sangh and Hindu Revivalism", Vistaar Publications, New Delhi,
1987.  Some extraneous or redundant material has been deleted; a few
grammatical errors have been corrected; subheads have been put in for clarity.
 
The interview took place on Dec 2, 1990, in Chicago.
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4. ADVICE TO MUSLIM LEADERS ON BABRI MASJID
 
A: In fact. even about BM, I told Muslim leaders, let us not
sacrifice more human lives. Enough have been killed for BM and
RJB.  Let us make a gesture, whether the temple was demolished or
not, the Hindus have a perception now that the temple was
demolished. It was not demolished and there is no historical
proof. Even doing speculation and demanding is ethically wrong.
But, here we have the problem, a problem has been created. Let us
resolve it in a spirit of dialogue. Let us sit with our Hindu
brothers and if they feel that it should be handed over to them,
then we can work out something in exchange for it, that no other
mosque will be touched thereafter. Let us do it. I mean, let us
create a precedent for taking initiative for peace. I am all for
it, if it is done in that spirit. But, if you mobilize lakhs of
Hindus and threaten the whole community - Singhal went to the
extent of saying thrice in 3 press conferences, at Ayodhya, Delhi
and Bombay, that let Muslims understand that neither govt, nor
police, nor political parties would be able to save them if they
don't hand over BM. What does it mean?  It means we will catch
all Muslims and kill them. And police and all will be with us. If
you talk this language - shameful for a democratic country and a
democratic society ..

    VHP'S APPROACH TO ISSUE
 
Suppose, you don't get BM for another 20 years, what happens?
Why, on 30th Oct itself, will your national honor be gone? I
mean, when we have lived for hundreds of years [with this
problem], ten, twenty or 30 years does not matter in the life of
a nation.  With patience they could have persuaded Muslims, that,
look here, our feelings are very strong about it, we greatly
revere Ram, we want to build a temple and it will be a measure of
good will ... Never was such a statement given by VHP.  Always
threatening. Always fixing dates. This is not the way to save a
nation. I hold BJP and VHP responsible for bringing the nation to
this sorry state of affairs. They have pushed it to the brink of
disintegration.  Now, will you be able to save Kashmir? You were
talking about the double standards of VP Singh, what about the
double standards of BJP & VHP? On the one hand they talk of
motherland, love for motherland, unity of the Akhand Bharat, and
on the other you do everything that will break India. If BM is
demolished, do you think Kashmir will ever remain with you? Come
what may?  And Punjab will remain with you?
 
D: I asked the same question to VHP. They answered 2 things. One:
Is it that you are holding Kashmir hostage over the RJB [issue]?
Forty years before, there was no RJB or VHP, but the country was
still partitioned. The country's disintegration is not today's
episode. Second, when I asked them about the date, [they said
that] the issue started in 1982. We always did dialogue.  We
requested the Muslims, just like Kaba mosque, Mecca, and Medina,
Kashi, Mathura and Ayodhya are holy to Hindus. We will be happy
with 3 sites for Hindus, inspite of what happened all over India
and we won't claim any more mosques and we give assurance to that
effect. They issued me a copy of this statement.
 
A: Let me reply to this first. First thing, it would be too naive
to suggest that the country was partitioned only because of
Muslims and Hindu Mahasabha had no role in that, Sardar Patel had
no role in it, and other Hindu leaders had no role in that. It
will be too simplistic a reading of the history. I am a student
of history myself. I studied the entire freedom struggle, why the
country was divided and I have been highly critical of Muslim
League and communal politics of Muslims. I have been attacked by
Muslims for that reason and I am saying with all objectivity that
this holier than thou attitude, that always the other side is to
be blamed and we never critically examine ourselves and what was
our role, is too simplistic and I won't accept this statement of
VHP.  I hold Hindu Mahasabha and certain Hindu leaders of
Congress as much responsible for Partition as the Muslim
leadership.  It was again the same thing I was saying. If they
had agreed to a dialogue and agreed to yield something to Muslim
demands and if Muslims also yielded something in return, our
country would not have been divided. All were in a hurry to
capture power.  What happens to the country and unity of the
motherland, nobody cared at that time in their lust for power.
Congress leaders are equally to be blamed for that. That is that.
 
Secondly, they gave this statement once. As I said, the situation
was so very complex that it would have taken years of patience.
There are opportunistic leaders in all communities. Muslims also
have that. Muslim leaders also try to rouse passions for their
own politics - not that Muslim leaders should not share the
blame. They also contributed a lot in aggravating the BM
agitation. I have been very critical of Muslim leaders. I have
been critical of Shahi Imam, Shahabuddin and many others in BM
Action Committee. The kind of rash statements they gave on this.
I was telling them to think of consequences - we have to work for
peace.
 
Whether Hindus are getting killed or Muslims are getting killed -
I am more concerned with human lives. But here even if we look
from a selfish angle, it is in the interest of Muslims because
more Muslims are getting killed in any communal violence. So, let
us resolve this issue. Let us not play politics on this. Because,
we are playing with the lives of human beings.  This has been my
stand. So, in such a situation, it would have required years of
patience. I mean, ten years, 12 years, 20 years, [it is] nothing
much in the life of a nation. After all we have to make our
nation stronger and stronger, and for that unity of people is
what matters. If we are shattering the unity of people for
partisan politics, for our shortsighted politics, then the
country is bound to suffer. This is what VHP did, they never
tried patiently. Issuing one statement or two statements cannot
resolve the complex issue, and after this date was fixed, govt
took an initiative to bring about inter-faith dialogue.
 
Jain Muni tried to bring about dialogue, Shahi Imam issued a
statement for a dialogue, but VHP was so determined for 30th Oct,
that there was only one solution - hand over the mosque. This is
not the way of resolving issues peacefully. And the kind of
statements Mr. Singhal has been giving, I mean you give one
statement and display it everywhere, and thousand other
statements you give are outright inflammatory, which have led to
so much communal violence, you don't talk of that. I mean, you
keep silent about that.  This is not the way of resolving issues.
It is not being honest, it is again double standards, you speak
with one face when you are confronted with certain questions
embarrassing to you and you speak with another face before Hindu
masses. This is not the way.
 
To me, my country is very dear to me, I love my country, I would
like my country to become more and more strong, become more and
more prosperous, I would like to see unity of people in my
country, but this is not the way of maintaining the unity of the
country. This is not the way of making our country more strong
and prosperous, when we are making it weaker and weaker every
day. I mean, when riots take place, don't think that, since only
Muslims get killed and their properties are looted, Hindus don't
suffer. Hindus also suffer. The whole economy comes to a grinding
halt. When this 30th Oct was fixed, you know, for a whole month,
trade came to a halt, because people could not travel, people
could not strike deals, everything was closed out of fear, people
were afraid what will happen tomorrow. Didn't the economy suffer?
When there is so much poverty, so much unemployment, is there no
poverty among Hindus?  Is there no unemployment among Hindus?
Don't you care for them? Do you think that by constructing a
temple, you will solve all the problems?
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-Srinivas				budaraju@cae.wisc.edu