HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: noel@crs.cl.msu.edu (Noel Estabrook)
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian
Subject: Re: TANGENT: Re: Satan as Heaven's Worship Leader
Date: 20 Aug 92 11:32:49 GMT
Reply-To: noel@crs.cl.msu.edu.UUCP (Noel Estabrook)
Organization: Michigan State University

In article <1992Aug19.145625.20590@news.cs.indiana.edu> azamora@cs.indiana.edu writes:
>In article <1992Aug18.210517.8715@msuinfo.cl.msu.edu> noel@crs.cl.msu.edu  
>writes:
>> On to my reference, though.  It is found in Isaiah 14.
>> has attained to Godhood and fallen from heaven?), we come to the section
>> of the chapter that is being used by those who make the above assertion:
>
>Actually, I think this passage might be referring to man instead of to Satan.   
>In Genesis 3, we find out that one of the reasons Adam and Eve ate from the  
>tree was that they wanted to be like gods.  In essence, they were saying in  
>their heart, "I will make myself like the Most High."  Of course, Adam and Eve  
>fell from Paradise and were kicked out of the garden.  So I think it is  
>appropriate to say that they fell from heaven and "have been cut down to the  
>earth."
>
>Any thoughts?

A couple.  First, even though Satan tells Eve that she could be like God,
these are not the reasons she actually eats.  She eats because 1- it was a
delight to the eyes, 2-it was good for food and 3- it was able to make one
wise (Gen 3:6)
Of course, the desire may certainly have been in their heart, but it's not
mentioned.

Second, Adam and Eve were kicked out of "paradise on earth".  The Isaiah
passage specifically says that the person being spoken of had "fallen out
of heaven...and been cut down to earth." (Is. 14:12).  The person being
talked about here had actually literally and physically inhabited heaven.
Adam and Eve were created on the earth and never inhabited.

Third, there is every indication that after their sin they were reconciled
to God and in all likelihood went to heaven after their death.  This simply
does not jibe with the Isaiah passage.  If you read the entire chapter (14),
you will see that the person being talked about is definitely unworthy of
any appellation which might be even close to good.  That passage is talking
about a vile, evil person - not just someone who was deceived and sinned.

Your point is well-taken, I just don't think it holds up to the passage.  I
would suggest that you read the whole chapter.


Noel Estabrook          |       Let us not merely do that which is our
noel@crs.cl.msu.edu   __|__	RIGHT, rather, let us desire to do that
Educational Technology  |	which IS right - Me
Michigan State Univ.    |				Romans 12:2

--
Noel Estabrook          |       Let us not merely do that which is our
noel@crs.cl.msu.edu   __|__	RIGHT, rather, let us desire to do that
Educational Technology  |	which IS right - Me
Michigan State Univ.    |				Romans 12:2
From: snorthc@nswc.navy.mil (Stephen Northcutt)
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian
Subject: Re: Recommendation for video...
Date: 20 Aug 92 13:03:51 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: NAVAL SURFACE WARFARE CENTER

>On the first night of the camp, before our Passover Feast, we would like
>to show a movie/video related to some kind of mystical journey to the kids 
>to set the tone for the camp.  The movie can be either secular/Christian.
>Please let me know if you have any suggestion for the movie.  Thanks.

Wasn't there a movie called exodus, starring someone like Charleston
Heston?  That might be appropriate.  I sort of remember the theme
song... I think it was called exodus as well.  :-)  :-)  :-) 
===================================================================
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian
From: chunnm@infonode.ingr.com (Michael Chunn)
Subject: Promoting Christian Music
Keywords: Promoting Christian Music
Organization: Intergraph Corporation, Huntsville, AL.
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 21:29:48 GMT


Does anyone have experience promoting concerts?
Any information about the in and outs of this type
of ministry would be appreciated.
From: gt6223b@prism.gatech.EDU (Jerry B. Ray)
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian
Subject: Re: Is music amoral??
Date: 13 Aug 92 14:16:51 GMT
Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology

In article <1992Aug13.024631.9307@doe.utoronto.ca> peter@doe.utoronto.ca (Peter Mielke) writes:
 
 About 2 months ago i went to Bill Gothard's Basic Principles Seminar
 (i forget the actual name).

Sorry to hear that :-)


 Anyhow i went to see what he had to say
 about music (i had gone about ten years ago and was not too impressed
 by what he had to say then). This time i was even more ticked off by
 what he had to say.

Good for you!  (No smilie here, im a 'Gothard basher' :-)

D uring the seminar Bill always backs up what he
 has to say with biblical references BUT for his music bit he doesn't
 have much and his premise that "music is not amoral" is stated right
 at the beginning BUT NEVER substantiated anywhere. He build everything
 on this premise.
 
 So what are the views out there? The way i see it, those that are
 against "christian rock" or any rock for that matter state that music
 is moral but they then run into the problem in defining a Godly style
 (which is something they then have to define)...

'Well I've found a new utensil
 In the devil's tool box
 and the heads are gonna roll when Jesus rocks
 It's of a worldly design
 God's music should be divine
 Try buying records like mine!
 Avoid temptation...Guilty By Association'-Steve Taylor

It has been my (considerable, right Bob?) experience that those who are 
aganist rock music or contemporary music (inc. country, etc.) start off
with the assumption that 'the beat is evil,' that music controls your mind,
that rock music (literally, no joke, i've heard this) makes girls pregnant
and causes plants to die and makes your brain grow funny.  Therefore, based
on this assumption, 'Christian rock' is just as bad as the 'regular stuff.'

I don't buy the arguement about the beat, etc, and instead feel that the]
'morality' of the music is found in the lyrics, and a make my listening
decisions accordingly.  My CD collection has lots of styles, both Christian
and 'secular,' from pop to thrash to rock to almost but not quite country.

JRjr
-- 
'Hear the tale of a fallen people, destined to wander their broken land.
Their eyes are vacant, full of empty meaning, and what they're missing they
just don't understand.  Beyond the dark horizon, out where the people are
crying, a Morningstar will be rising, rising to show us the way...' Whiteheart
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian
From: aaron@binah.cc.brandeis.edu (Scott Aaron)
Subject: Re: Is music amoral??
Reply-To: aaron@binah.cc.brandeis.edu
Organization: Brandeis University
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 18:29:08 GMT

In article <drice.714102889@ponder>, drice@ponder.csci.unt.edu (Keith Rice) writes:
>"Stairway" is considered to be a classic example of a song with backward
>messages dealing with Satan.  Jimmy Page of Led Zeppelin is an avowed
>follower of Alistair (sp?) Crowley's writings.  I can't remember exactly
>what "Stairway" says backwards as I have lent mt tape of its message to
>a friend but it is most definitely satanic.

People have a really hard time with this.  I don't understand.  PEOPLE are evil,
PEOPLE bring glory to whatever god they serve, etc.  How can one assign
characteristics of individuals to simple sounds?  Perhaps Robert Plant intended
an evil message in his lyrics, but that is irrelevant.  I've always felt that
if a band like King's X had written that song, it would be considered the
greatest Christian song ever written (instead of the greatest rock song ever,
which it is!).  It is the individual listener's interpretation of the lyrics
that counts, not those of the author.

One CANNOT assign the traits of individuals to objects!

By the way, backward messages!  GIVE ME A BREAK!

  -- Scott @Brandeis

                           I asked Jesus,
                     "How much do you love me?"
                     "This much," He answered;
                        and He stretched out
                         His arms and died.
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian
From: mdw@cbnewsg.cb.att.com (mark.d.wuest)
Subject: Re: Is music amoral??
Organization: AT&T
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 18:26:01 GMT

In <1992Aug18.215410.22880@rambo.atlanta.dg.com>, Bill Rawlins writes:

>Any person who has been born-again has the Holy Spirit within them.
>They should be able to discern flesh from spirit.
>I used to be "into" really hard rock quite a few years back.
>When I listen to "Christian" music that is is "fleshly", I can sense
>it.
>When I listen to music that brings praise and adoration to God,
>I can sense it.  The question is, What do I want to listen to,
>that which is fleshly or that which is spiritual?  As Christians,
>we should choose spiritual things rather than fleshly.

  - and then -

In article <1992Aug20.170543.2441@rambo.atlanta.dg.com> wpr@atlanta.dg.com (Bill Rawlins) writes:

>An example I gave of "fleshly" is the urge you get to mash down the
>accelerator in your car when the heavy metal music comes on.  Spiritual
>music fills you with the love of God, or peace, or praise.  The bottom
>line is that this discernment is something that each believer must do -
>It is a spiritual discernment that can't be defined with rules.  That
>is why there will always be discussions of what is appropriate music
>for Christians.
> - Because we can't define it.  We follow the leading of the Holy
>Spirit.  (Romans 8:14, Galatians 5:16)

What if heavy metal music doesn't give one the urge to mash down the
accelerator?  Believe it or not, there are those of us who actually
*enjoy* some of it.  In fact, I'm magnaminous enough to even tolerate
my wife's Amy Grant and Barry Manilow occasionally.

If it makes you mash down on the accelerator, then I suggest you
avoid listening to it.  Since it doesn't seem to have that effect
on others, it is obviously not inherently evil, by your own
definition.

Mark
-- 
Mark Wuest                            *MY* opinions, not AT&T's!!
mark.wuest@att.com
mdw@cheshire.att.com (NeXT Mail)
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian
From: abney@scivax.stsci.edu
Subject: RE: Steve Camp Albums
Organization: Space Telescope Science Institute
Distribution: na
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 23:58:40 GMT


/I'm trying to locate a tape that I once saw.  It's a tape by Steve Camp.  
/Does anybody have a listing of albums he released in the last several years?  
/I cannot remember the name, but I'm sure I'd recognize it if I saw it.
/
/			  Alice

	O.K.  Steve has released the following albums (to my knowledge):

	Album Name		Year	Album Cover
	----------------------------------------------------------------------
	Consider the Cost	1991	Profile of Steve with brown background
 	Doing my Best		1990	Steve at a piano
	Justice			1989	Man with green background
	After God's Own Heart	1987	Steve wearing a jean jacket
	One on One		1986	Steve (needing a shave)
	Shake Me to Wake Me	1985	Steve (still needing a shave)
	Fire and Ice		1984	A Sword approaching the Earth
	It's a Dying World	 ??	??
	Only the Very Best	 ??	Steve in yellow sweater with a guitar
	Start Believin'		 ??	A very young Steve singing
	Sayin' it with Love	1978	A very young Steve in some trees

There's also been a few compilation albums (I think Doing my Best II).  I hope
this list is complete, let me know if it's not!!

				--Faith
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian
From: dmaxwell@auc.trw.com (Doug Maxwell)
Subject: Warnke files
Reply-To: dmaxwell@dora.auc.trw.com (Doug Maxwell)
Organization: TRW Denver Operations
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1992 22:54:47 GMT

Where are the files containing the Cornerstone artice and Mike Warnke's
reply located?
 
-- 
|Douglas J. Maxwell dmaxwell@dora.auc.trw.com  |   *                         |
|TRW Denver Operations                         | *****                       |
|16201 Centretech Pky / Aurora, CO  80011      |   *                         |
|Voice:  303.360.4013  FAX:  303.360.4133      |   *  Doing my best for Him. |
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian
From: kimmel@epx.cis.umn.edu (Eric Kimmel)
Subject: Re: "Man in the Box" what's it about?about
Organization: University of Minnesota
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 16:33:34 GMT

In article <66389@hydra.gatech.EDU> gt6223b@prism.gatech.EDU (Jerry B. Ray) writes:
>In article <18AUG199218573312@rosie.uh.edu> mece2b1@rosie.uh.edu (Meyers, David C.) writes:
>>Has anybody ever figured out what the song "Man in the Box" is about by
>>alice in chains? I was just wondering...to me it sounds like the singer is
>>feeling kicked around and just down and out? The only reason I thought this
>>had any relevance to this group is because of the reference to Jesus Christ... 
>
>Well, the only lyrics i've been able to make out are 'Jesus Christ,' 
>'ay-yi-yi-yi-yi...,' and 'deny your maker.'  The video has copious shots of
>guys in ominous-looking hooded black robes, and lots of shots of goat's 
>heads.  Draw your own conclusions :-)

Here it is:

I'm the man in the box
buried in my shit
won't you come & save me, save me

[Chorus]
Feed my eyes, can you sew them shut?
Jesus Christ, deny your Maker
he who tries, will be wasted
feed my eyes now you've sewn them shut

I'm the dog who gets beat
shove my nose in shit
won't you come and save me

[Repeat chorus twice]

I won't attempt to make an interpretation...

>JRjr

-Rick
From: steiner@jupiter.cse.utoledo.edu (jason "Think!" steiner)
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian
Subject: Re: KKKKKKK Tonio K KKKKKKK
Date: 17 Aug 92 22:40:14 GMT

trw@spl1.spl.loral.com (Tim R Witort) writes:
> Here's another interpretation puzzle for everyone....
> 
> For those familiar with Tonio K's album "Romeo Unchained"
> (a stupedous albums IMHO), this line (approximately) comes 
> from the song "You don't belong here":
> 
>    They cracked the code and surrounded the building at dawn,
>    But but they had disappeared mysteriously.
>    Meanwhile, the war rages on.
> 
> This line has always seemd out of place in this song and I
> was wondering if anyone knew what it was supposed to be
> saying and what it has to do with the rest of the song: someone
> trying to get another out of a grungy, self-destructive life on
> the streets.

this is highly subjective, but i think those lines are the "light
at the end of the tunnel." the song talks about the, "grungy,
self-destrictive life on the streets," then closes with the
protagonists escaping while the destruction continues behind them.
see, Tonio K. isn't hopeless and depressing. he just sounds that
way. :^)

jason "now you've got me humming Tonio K!" steiner

"You've been a prisoner baby
 Been a prisoner all your life
 Held captive in an alien world
 Where they hold your need for love at your throat like a knife
 And they make you jump
 Oh, and they make you do tricks
 They take what started out such an innocent heart
 Then they break it and break it and break it
 Until it almost can't be fixed...

 And I don't know when
 And I don't know how
 Don't know if you'll be leaving alone
 Or you'll be leaving with me
 But I know
 You will go free..."

--
`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`
`,`     "Stark raving sane." -- Rosencrantz & Guildenstern Are Dead     `,`
`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,` steiner@jupiter.cse.utoledo.edu `,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian
From: azamora@hexagon.cs.indiana.edu (Tony Zamora)
Subject: Upon this Rock?
Reply-To: azamora@cs.indiana.edu
Organization: Computer Science, Indiana University
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 92 14:33:35 EST

I've heard a couple of people talk about the song "Upon this Rock" by Steve  
Camp and the album "Upon this Rock" by Larry Norman.  I know about the version  
of "Upon this Rock" that Sandi Patti did.  Are these others different versions  
of the same song or are they completely different?  What are they like?

Tony
From: mueller@owlnet.rice.edu (Ernest Conrad Mueller)
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian
Subject: Re: TANGENT: Re: Do We Need a New newsgroup?
Date: 14 Aug 1992 15:20:34 GMT
Organization: Rice University

You know, we could always just work it like this.  If you are discussing a
tangent that only remotely (or not at all) relates to Christian music,
put the word "TANGENT" in your header, either subject or keywords.
Then, everyone who just wants to hear about music, put /TANGENT/h:j
in their kill files.  (In rn hit ctrl-K to edit your kill file).
Tangents will then be invisible to those who don't want them, and everyone
who wants to discuss Christian stuff without s.r.c style formalism
can do so.

Also, for anyone who gets the "bit.listserv" newsgroups, there is a group
called bit.listserv.christia (a gated mailing-list) which has
only light moderation and is more informal - it's really heavy on the
evangelical/Baptist/neoconservative types though. 

(No, nothing's wrong with them folk, it's just that it's all them folk.)

-Ernest
-- 
--------------\  /^--^\  /--------------  *     Ernest Conrad Mueller IV
   ------------\| 0  0 |/------------     *     mueller@owlnet.rice.edu
      ----------\_ <> _/----------        *     Rice U., Home of Owlnet
                /V\--/V\                  *     "Give a hoot - Don't compute!"
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian
From: cpl3q@fulton.seas.Virginia.EDU (Charles Philip Lu)
Subject: Re: R.M.C. Desert Island Quiz #2
Keywords: deserted island, tapes/cd's, batteries, etc...
Organization: University of Virginia
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 17:53:15 GMT


>Question 1: You have a choice of up to 10 albums that you can have
>with you when you get to the island. What are your choices for music
>that you "just gotta have" with you?  This music can be any genre and
>any artist in the last, say 100 years. Your choices don't have to be
>in order of preference and need to include artist (s) and album title.

1. Petra - Beyond Belief                            
2. Petra - Unseen Power                          
3. Petra - Petra Praise                          
4. Amy Grant - Heart in Motion                          
5. Maranatha Kids - Second Sunday Sing Along                          
6. Maranatha - We Shall Stand                          
7. Maranatha - The Battle Belongs To The Lord                          
8. DC TALK - Heavenbound                          
9. DC TALK - Nu Thang                          
10. Steven Curtis Chapman - For the Sake of the Call                         


>Question 2: After about five years, you find out (via a letter in a bottle)
>that you can get a hold of new albums from 10 artists or groups of your choice;
>which artists would you want to catch up on?

1. Petra                                6. Harvest
2. DC TALK                              7. Steven Curtis Chapman
3. Amy Grant                            8. Carman 
4. Whiteheart                           9. Steve Camp
5. Degarmo & Key                        10. Twila Paris

>Question 3: A box washes up on shore with 5 albums, each of which has the 
>best music of the career of one artist or group. If you had a choice, which 
>artist or group would you choose?

1. Petra         
2. Maranatha - Spiritual Warfare Series        
3. Whiteheart        
4. Amy Grant        
5. DC TALK        


>Question 4: After a few more years, you get the chance to hear two
>groups in concert as their boat passes close by the island ( yes,
>its a really busy island :-) ); who would you want to hear?

1. Petra
2. DC Talk


Charlie Lu
1 Thessalonians 5:16-18
Organization: Electrical & Computer Engineering, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 14:42:12 -0400 
From: Meg Alison Veily <mv0t+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Statement Condemning Musical Forms (was: is music amoral)
	<1992Aug18.220028.17594@gtech.com>
Distribution: usa

On 18-Aug-92 in Re: Statement Condemning Mu..
user Christopher A. White@gte writes:
>I once heard Brahms played on an electric guitar with the reverb way up,
>where does that fall????

That's just plain bad taste.  (:-)

-Meg
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian
From: johnt@meaddata.com (John Townsend)
Subject: Re: Is music amoral??
Organization: Mead Data Central, Dayton OH
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 19:44:09 GMT
Distribution: usa

In article <drice.714123075@ponder>, drice@ponder.csci.unt.edu (Keith Rice) writes:
|> While we're on the subject of backward messages, I pose another question
|> for discussion.  Why do we only hear of satanic messages in secular rock
|> music and never hear Godly messages when the songs are played in reverse?

For anyone interested in the subject of Satanism in secular music, I'd strongly
recommend the video "Hell's Bells" as a must-see.  It's been a long time since
I've seen it, but it makes a very strong, practical case for the influence of
spiritual forces on and through music, even if you don't agree with all of it.
In answer to your question, I would just point out that backwards incantations
are a fundamental part of Satanic worship, and are described in the _Satanic
Bible_.  Something about them being an attempt to "undo" the acts of God, I
think.

--
John Townsend                     Internet:   johnt@meaddata.com
Principal Software Engineer       UUCP:       ...!uunet!meaddata!johnt
Mead Data Central                 GEnie:      J.E.Townsend
8891 Gander Creek Dr.             Telephone:  (513) 865-7250 
Miamisburg, OH  45342             Telefax:    (513) 865-1755

"The question for the voters is:  Do you want a second-class fireman [Bush]
or a first-class arsonist [Clinton]?"
                                  -- Thomas Sowell
From: trw@spl1.spl.loral.com (Tim R Witort)
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian
Subject: Re: Needed:  "Choose Life" by Debby Boone
Date: 20 Aug 92 18:33:35 GMT
Organization: Loral Software Productivity Laboratory


 I have the album and I think I've seen the CD in my local
CCM store. Let me know if you want me to check into it.

-- Tim

;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;
; Tim Witort   |  If you'll take one look at the Savior, my friend, ;
; SPL Loral    |  you'll find His arms open wide. You'll find His   ;
;              |  arms open wide. -- Take 6                         ;
;-------------------------------------------------------------------;
;       My opinions are my own - not Loral's. Go figure!            ;
;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;
From: jmrg9881@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Jon Reid)
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian
Subject: Re: Do We Need a New newsgroup? (was Re: Those Nasty Fundamentalists)
Date: 13 Aug 92 19:14:24 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana

How about soc.religion.christian.evangelical, with no moderator?

Seems like the folks that hang around r.m.c. tend to be evangelicals;
that may account for the difference of "flavor" with s.r.c.
-- 
Jon Reid    j-reid@uiuc.edu    GEnie: THE.REIDS
"He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose."
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian
From: jpersons@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (John C Persons)
Subject: Re: Need a Scripture reference
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 14:00:08 GMT

In article <1992Aug13.133829.3829@cs.cornell.edu> lmc@cs.cornell.edu (Linda Marie Competillo) writes:
>
>Yes, this IS sort of music-related. Can anyone give me a scripture 
>reference to back up a claim I heard last night that Satan was "in charge" 
>of the music in heaven before his fall? I'd sure appreciate a reply today
>if someone's got it.
>
>Thanks bunches,
>
>  Linda 

I heard this claim recently.  I think its based on a verse 
(sorry, don't remember where it is and I don't have a concordance
here) that says something about Lucifer being "beautiful in worship"
or something like that.  What I remember is that the verse said
nothing specifically about music, but only about worship.

Sorry this is so vague.

John