From: knapp@spot.Colorado.EDU (David Knapp)
Subject: Re: Observations
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 22:06:53 GMT

In article <1992Sep3.152443.26511@advtech.uswest.com> stevens@eatdust (John Stevens) writes:
>In article <1992Sep1.204031.20902@ucsu.Colorado.EDU> knapp@spot.Colorado.EDU (David Knapp) writes:
>>In article <1992Sep1.165041.11734@advtech.uswest.com> stevens@eatdust (John Stevens) writes:
>>>In article <1992Aug31.211505.23998@watson.ibm.com> margoli@watson.ibm.com writes:
>>>>In  <1992Aug31.145104.12528@advtech.uswest.com>  stevens@eatdust (John Stevens) writes:
>>>The beliefs that would be legislated (and enforced on others) would be the
>>>belief that abortion is not murder.  In other words, it would enforce a
>>>belief about when a child becomes a human being.
>>>
>>>The people that are being forced to have abortions now, are the fathers
>>>who have no legal recourse to stop a woman from murdering their child.
>>
>>That is a highly rhetorical and simply incorrect response.
>
>It isn't an incorrect response if you admit (and you don't) that abortion
>affects men. 

I agree it affects men. Men are not, however, having abortions.

> I've heard this before, always from people who seem to
>think that a father is a second class parent.

I don't think that at all, even though there is a high percentage of second
class fathers out there. It is not built into the Y chromosome but into
the character of the father.

>>Men aren't forced to have abortions.
>
>Yes, they are.  They cannot legally prevent it from occurring, so if they
>don't want their baby aborted, but the mother does it anyway, the abortion
>is forced on the man.

The computer room is laughing at your assertion that men are forced to have
abortions.  We think you might be having a problem with the procedure and
definition of an abortion.

>It is extremely short sighted (almost blind) to say that only the person
>who is physically involved is affected by an abortion.


I didn't suggest that men were not emotionally effected by abortions. I didn't
know that this was your only contention. It sounded like you were saying that
men were being forced to have abortions.


>This is akin in
>my mind to saying that only the woman is affected when her wedding ring
>is stolen off of her finger.  Both the wife AND the husband are ripped
>off.  The same with abortion.

Hmm, I think you'd better call a doctor and have him explain the abortion
procedure.

>>They are currently at the  mercy of their biological 
>>situation. Men do not have the power to give birth to a child.
>
>You slant this rather heavily by ignoring that fathers are the reason
>mothers BECOME mothers. 

It is not a matter of ignoring it. 

> Without fathers, there would be no pregnancy,
>therefore no need for an abortion, or an abortion debate.

Keen observation.

>>The best you can hope for is to get used to the idea that you cannot have
>>babies without the kindness of a woman.  I'm sorry.
>
>The best I can hope for is that you will someday realize that no woman can
>have babies without the kindness of a man.

Hmm, in a sense, if it were as laborious and painful to donate sperm as it
is to carry and deliver a child, one might see your parallelism.

Since donating sperm is about as difficult as scratching a friends back,
I don't see your point as being that crucial.

-- 
David Knapp                                      University of Colorado, Boulder
Perpetual Student                                   knapp@spot.colorado.edu