HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: aa478@Freenet.carleton.ca (Paul Shuttle)
Subject: Re: Closeness of the Nordic Languages
Organization: National Capital Freenet, Ottawa, Canada
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1992 05:19:59 GMT


Edmund J. Ryan (cb926@cleveland.Freenet.Edu) asks:
>
>  Are Norweigan, Danish, and Swedish similar to the extent that
>  a speaker of one could get by with the other two?

Norwegian, Danish and Swedish are all cognate languages that stem
from a common Ur-Norse, or Norron.  This language is cognate to
early Anglo-Saxon.  (This of course, is one of the roots of
English: I like to say that Norwegian is English minus the French).

Until very recently, the Official _written_ language of Norway
was Danish. (Norway was under Danish Rule from the 1300s --
1384 I think -- until 1814.)  So one written form of Norwegian
is Bokmal, or Book-Language. This is very similar to Danish. This
also survives as Riksmal, or National-Language.

However, unofficially, each Norwegian district (often isolated
by valleys or fjords) has its own dialect.  These were often
quite divergent.  Collectively these were known as Landsmal, or
Country (Rural)-Language.  Recently, the various dialects were
standardized in written form to create a new language called
Ny-Norsk (New-Norwegian).  Norway is actually a bilingual country:
Ny Norsk and Bokmal are both offical languages.  Sami (Lapp) is
an unofficial language.  In general, however, there is not a
great difference in these various dialects of Norwegian.

In general, if you speak Norwegian, it is very easy to read 
Danish, but difficult to understand (so many glottal sounds).
Conversely, it is rather easy to understand spoken Swedish,
but rather difficult (or more so) to read written
Swedish (due to grammatical and vocabulary differences).

Basically, the three Scandinavian languages are dialects
of some thousand years difference.  German and English
are cognate of some several thousands of years
difference.

Paul Shuttle                  aa478@Freenet.carleton.ca
-- 
_______________________________________________________
_____ aa478@ncf.carle.ot.ca     (Paul Shuttle)        -
______________________________________________________
From: urf@icl.se (Urban F)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Finnish Defense
Date: 21 Dec 92 11:19:22 GMT
Organization: None. On USENET I speak only for myself.
X-Alt.reply-Address: n.g.u.fredriksson.swe2001@oasis.icl.co.uk

mtf@saha.hut.fi (dalens ande) writes:

>In article <urf.724342902@sw2001> urf@icl.se (Urban F) writes:

>>Depending on how you define it. As I see it, high-tech is to the
>>advantage of small, defending nations.

> How can that be? As I see it, small nations can't really afford high-tech,
>but a big nation with a big military budget can.

Yes we can. The lo-tech way of killing a tank is to do it with
another, just as expensive tank. The high-tech way is to do it
with a smart, much cheaper, missile. And so on.

Smart weapons are usually small enough to be easily moved and
hidden, which works to the defender's advantage.

Of course, a small, _poor_and_underdeveloped_ nation like
Iraq (for example) never has much of a chance against an
industrialized nation.
--
 Urban Fredriksson  urf@icl.se  
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: chad@ithil.enet.dec.com (Chad Leigh)
Subject: Re: What is correct: ," or ", ?
Reply-To: chad@ithil.enet.dec.com
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation, Munich Germany
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 12:12:15 GMT


--
In article <1992Dec21.143855.5007@dxcern.cern.ch>, trones@dxcern.cern.ch (Jostein Lodve Trones) writes:
>What I am wondering about is the correct way to write the following:

>(1) "No", he said.
>   or
>(2) "No," he said.

>I would have thought (1) was correct, but reading Stephen King's "IT"
>in English I notice he uses alternative (2).

2 is correct for proper English.  (Stephen King seems to be good for
something it seems :-)

>Is there a different rule for this in English and Norwegian (or other
>languages)? Or is (2) correct all the time? Or maybe (1)?

Don't know about Norwegian.

>I use this opportunity to wish you all a Merry Christmas and a Happy New 
>Year!

Agreed.  Happy holidays, Merry Christmas, and a Happy New Year!

>Cheers,
>	Jostein


Chad
-------------------------------------------------------
Chad Leigh                         | I don't speak
Digital Equipment GmbH             | for DEC and they
Munich, Germany			   | don't speak
Originally from Pepperell, MA, USA | for me
-------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: tt@sulla.jyu.fi (Tapani Tarvainen)
Subject: Re: What is correct: ," or ", ?
Originator: tt@sulla.math.jyu.fi
Organization: University of Jyvaskyla
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 16:26:00 GMT

In article <1992Dec21.143855.5007@dxcern.cern.ch> trones@dxcern.cern.ch (Jostein Lodve Trones) writes:

>What I am wondering about is the correct way to write the following:

>(1) "No", he said.
>   or
>(2) "No," he said.

>I would have thought (1) was correct, but reading Stephen King's "IT"
>in English I notice he uses alternative (2).

>Is there a different rule for this in English and Norwegian (or other
>languages)? Or is (2) correct all the time? Or maybe (1)?

The rule is different in different languages, and the usage may vary
somewhat even within one language.  In Finnish (1) is the only correct
form; in English, (2) is traditionally the correct form, but quite a
few English writers have begun to use (1) recently, especially in
computer manuals and such where one actually may be quoting a sequence
of words ending with a comma, and the presence or absence of the comma
may make a difference.

I don't know about Norwegian.
--
Tapani Tarvainen  (tt@math.jyu.fi, tarvainen@finjyu.bitnet)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: nkjrm@taxus.uib.no (Rolf Manne)
Subject: Re: What language is this?
Organization: University of Bergen
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 15:20:32 GMT

In article <momotaro.724712208@cwis> momotaro@cwis.unomaha.edu (Bryan Stack) writes:

>bjorn@toby.ludd.luth.se (Bjorn Fahller) writes:

>>"Nollaig Nait Cugat It".

My favorite Christmas greeting is from Hawaii:

"Meli Kalikimaka".

It is not in the Hawaiian language but "Merry Christmas" transliterated
to fit with Hawaiian phonetics.

Rolf Manne

e-mail Rolf.Manne@uib.no


Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic,soc.culture.german,soc.culture.french,alt.folklore.computers
From: ddawson@rodan.acs.syr.edu (Dick Dawson)
Subject: Re: Metric again...  (Was: 8-bit news (was Re: Commodore keyboard ...))
Organization: Syracuse University, Syracuse, NY
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 92 00:14:30 EST

In article <1992Dec3.113912.9003@dmu.ac.uk> cph@dmu.ac.uk (Chris Hand) writes:
>In article <markus.270.723221622@clement.info.umoncton.ca> markus@clement.info.umoncton.ca (MARC PAULIN) writes: [Quoting someone else!]
>>
>>>>> No, they are number signs.  They are sometimes used with weights
>>>>> when you're too lazy to abbreviate pounds (lb) properly.
>>
>>>> Yeah. Now, if you guys would just learn to use the metric system like
>>>> all sensible people, you wouldn't have this problem to worry about.
>
>Metric currency?  In that case...
>
>In the name of European and world-wide harmony, I propose that the
>ASCII character code 0100100 be adopted as the international symbol for 
>the ECU.  Any country that may happen already to use this character
>is welcome to adopt the ECU as its main currency instead.
>
>chris
>-- 
>Chris Hand, Lecturer                Internet mail: cph@dmu.ac.uk
>Dept of Computing Science,          Voice: +44 533 551551 x8476
>De Montfort University, The Gateway,  Fax: +44 533 541891  FIDOnet: 2:440/32.50
>LEICESTER, UK   LE1 9BH             >> Linux: *free* unix for IBM PCs! <<

ascii 24 is an arrow pointing up.  Not the caret character shifted 6
on US keyboards.  I've never seen this character on any keyboard,
meaning some shuck & fiddle to generate it.  But maybe if we really
get a 16 bit character set that is truly international standard across
most machines and keyboards that allow online switching between
various nation's character sets and layouts.  Let's make it a real
standard, honored by universal use, not in the breach!

Dick      ddawson@mailbox.syr.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: Bjorn.B.Larsen@delab.sintef.no (Bjorn B. Larsen)
Subject: Re: What is correct: ," or ", ?
Reply-To: bjorn.b.larsen@delab.sintef.no
Organization: SINTEF DELAB (was ELAB-RUNIT, nee ELAB), Trondheim, Norway
Date: 21 Dec 92 16:41:48

In article <1992Dec21.143855.5007@dxcern.cern.ch>
trones@dxcern.cern.ch (Jostein Lodve Trones) writes:

> Don't know if this is the best group to ask, but it seems to be quite a lot
> of language-capable people here, so why not...

> What I am wondering about is the correct way to write the following:

> (1) "No", he said.
>      or
> (2) "No," he said.

> I would have thought (1) was correct, but reading Stephen King's "IT"
> in English I notice he uses alternative (2).

> Is there a different rule for this in English and Norwegian (or other
> languages)? Or is (2) correct all the time? Or maybe (1)?

I don't know the rule in English, but I guess it is the same as in
Norwegian, and that is 2).

> I use this opportunity to wish you all a Merry Christmas and a Happy New 
> Year!

Same to you!

Bj{\o}rn (LaTeX)

Bjrn    (iso 8859.1)

--
______________________________________________________________________
               s-mail:                 e-mail:
|   |   |      Bjorn B. Larsen         bjorn.b.larsen@delab.sintef.no
|__ |__ |      SINTEF DELAB
|  \|  \|      N-7034 TRONDHEIM        tel: +47-7-592682 / 592600
|__/|__/|_     NORWAY                  fax: +47-7-591039 / 594302
______________________________________________________________________
From: tknudsen@ics.uci.edu (Trond Knudsen)
Subject: Re: The Samii languages
Keywords: Samii languages
Reply-To: tknudsen@ics.uci.edu (Trond Knudsen)
Organization: Univ. of Calif., Irvine, Info. & Computer Sci. Dept.
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 20:33:19 GMT

In my previous posting I forgot to mention that the Samii languages
are of course not in relation with the nordic languages at all. They
belong to the finnish-ugrian language group, related to finnish and
hungarian, but so different from them that finns do not understand
samii and samiis do not understand finnish. I should also mention that
the terms lappish and lapps should be exchanged with the more
ethnically correct samii and samiis.

-- 
Trond Knudsen
From: kurt@dna.lth.se (Kurt Swanson)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Dansk mailing-list (pointers needed)
Keywords: Danish software professionals in California
Date: 2 Jan 93 11:19:56 GMT
Organization: Lund Institute of Technology, Sweden

ncjuul@diku.dk (Niels Christian Juul) writes:
>As I'm moving to Riverside outside LA in California in less than two weeks,
>I'll be very happy to get in touch with fellow countrymen in the area.
>My family including my two kids will follow me in late February, and thus
>I'll very much look for opportunities for them to practice their Danish.

I don't understand - don't they speak Danish now?

>DISCLAIMER: This request is NOT an indication that I, nor the family, wants
>	    to isolate from the local community. Part of being abroad is of
>	    course to learn from and associate with the 'locals'.

Say "hi" to the yokels for me...
-- 
Kurt Swanson, Dept. of Computer Science,
Lunds universitet.  Kurt.Swanson@dna.lth.se
-- 
Kurt Swanson, Dept. of Computer Science,
Lunds universitet.  Kurt.Swanson@dna.lth.se
From: mjb@media.mit.edu (Molly Bancroft)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Inexpensive Accomodations/Sweden
Summary: hostels or cheap (nice) hotels
Keywords: Norkoping, Sweden or Stockholm
Date: 23 Dec 92 16:40:46 GMT
Followup-To: na
Organization: MIT Media Laboratory


Hi Everyone,
My mom is going to a week-long conference in Sweden in
January and is looking for ideas on accomodations that
are less expensive than the $150-$200 hotel rooms.

The conference is in Norkoping, but she is willing to
stay outside the city, as far as Stockholm and find
transportation in.  Any ideas I'd appreciate greatly...

thanks,
molly
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: aki!wegmann (Frank Wegmann)
Subject: Re: Quoting
Organization: Private/FRG
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 19:48:56 GMT

In article <1992Dec22.193658.11736@aki.en.open.de> aki!wegmann (Frank  
Wegmann) writes:
> 
> +=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+
> Frank Wegmann		     voice    : +49 231 710 439
> Schleppbahnstr.10	     InterNet : wegmann@aki.en.open.de (NeXT Mail)
> W-4600 Dortmund 50	     AppleLink: WEGMANN.F (occasionally)
> +=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+
> -- 
> +=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+
> Frank Wegmann		     voice    : +49 234 700 24 61
> Sprachwiss. Institut	     fax      : +49 234 70 94 137
> Ruhr-Universitaet Bochum     InterNet : wegmann@ruba.rz.ruhr-uni-bochum.de
> P.O.Box 10 21 48	     AppleLink: WEGMANN.F (once a week)
> W-4630 Bochum 1   +=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+
> Frank Wegmann		     voice/fax: +49 231 710 439 / +49 231 791 865
> Schleppbahnstr.10	     InterNet : wegmann@aki.en.open.de (NeXT Mail)
> W-4600 Dortmund 50	     AppleLink: WEGMANN.F (occasionally)
> +=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+


According to netiquette, large signatures like these are not very nice. But  
unfortunately, there is a bug in my news reader that duplicates my signature.  
(I usually split it to keep private stuff apart from my office work.

Sorry for that

Frank
From: f90-len@byse.nada.kth.se (Lars Engebretsen)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: What is correct: ," or ", ?
Date: 22 Dec 92 10:20:25 GMT
Organization: Royal Institute of Technology, Stockholm, Sweden

In article <olems-221292101137@hfmac15.uio.no> olems@ulrik.uio.no (Ole Michael Selberg) writes:
>In article <TT.92Dec21182600@sulla.jyu.fi>, tt@sulla.jyu.fi (Tapani
>Tarvainen) wrote:
>> 
>> In article <1992Dec21.143855.5007@dxcern.cern.ch> trones@dxcern.cern.ch (Jostein Lodve Trones) writes:
>> 
>> >What I am wondering about is the correct way to write the following:
>> 
>> >(1) "No", he said.
>> >   or
>> >(2) "No," he said.
>> 
>
>Type (1) seems to be the rule in Swedish, Finnish, German, French, Russian

In Swedish the rule is as follows: Big punctuation marks, like ! ?, should
be before the citation mark, whereas small punctuation marks, like , .,
shold be after the citation mark.

>By the way: if you're concerned about national correctness, you should also
>watch out when you choose your quotation marks:
>
>English:   ``No,++ he said
>Norwegian: ,,Nei,++ sa han   OR   <<Nei,>> sa han
>German:    ,,Nein``, sagte er   OR   >>Nein<<, sagte er

Swedish: ''Nej'', sade han   OR   <<Nej>>, sade han.

The latter form is very unusual, but correct.  Citations inside citations
use a single quote

''Hon sade 'nej' till mig'', sade han.
-- 
Lars Engebretsen, Fm-90 KTH, f90-len@nada.kth.se
From: torkel@sics.se (Torkel Franzen)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Closeness of the Nordic Languages
Date: 30 Dec 92 09:25:25 GMT
	<TORKEL.92Dec28101810@lludd.sics.se> <1hrl4aINNb9b@vttux1.vtt.fi>
Organization: Swedish Institute of Computer Science, Kista

In article <1hrl4aINNb9b@vttux1.vtt.fi> leino@rat.vtt.fi (Tapio Leino) writes:

   >I agree. I have attended several meetings with other Scandinavian people
   >where the Swedes were the ones to suggest to using English instead of the
   >Scandinavian languages just because it was too hard for them to know what
   >the Danish speaker was taking about!

  How utterly revolting. These people should be be made to pay heavy fines,
in addition to listening five times to the collected works of H.C.Andersen
read in Danish.
From: andersa@Riga.DoCS.UU.SE (Anders Andersson)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Closeness of the Nordic Languages
Keywords: klapperslange, stoevsauger
Date: 29 Dec 92 22:27:22 GMT
Organization: Uppsala University, Sweden
NNTP-Posting-Host: riga.docs.uu.se

In article <1992Dec28.040733.23536@odin.diku.dk>, rancke@diku.dk (Hans Rancke-Madsen) writes:
> (It's my impression that Swedes have an easier time understanding
> Danes than vice versa. Can anyone confirm or deny this?)

My impression is the exact opposite of that, but I have never
been a Dane myself, so I can't provide an objective comparison.
Up here in the eastern provinces I don't get that much exposure
to Danish, and I have a hard time following regular Danish speech.
If it occurs on television, I simply expect it to be subtitled
(not quite so with Oslo Norwegian, which uses consonants in much
the same way as does Swedish, but it's often subtitled anyway).

However, I'm also impressed by the ability of many Danes to
speak either Swedish or a kind of easy, articulated Danish
targeted at Swedish ears, when this is called for.  I'm not
sure my attempts at making the reciprocal trick for Danish
ears would be equally successful...

I was involved in the performance of a children's musical back
in 1980.  One of our tours even led us abroad, to Humlebaek in
Denmark (north of Copenhagen).  The actors had replaced a few key
words and idiomatic expressions with some roughly corresponding
phrases in Danish, but the dialogue was otherwise entirely in
Swedish.  As a precaution, our Danish-born composer provided
a short, taped summary of the plot in Danish.  His phrasing

	'...skolmusicalen "Drage, drage, hvordan har Du det",
	 eller som den heter paa svensk,
	 "Drake, drake, hur staar det til"...'

was interrupted by cheerful laughter from the youngish audience.
I still don't see what they considered so funny with Swedish,
merely spoken with a Danish accent :-?

I don't know to what extent the kids really followed the Swedish
dialogue, but they seemed to enjoy the play just as much as our
native Swedish audience had done before them.

	"Ja, det aer rigtig!!"
		/a mythical Danish minister of education

Reading either Danish or Norwegian (bokmaal) is usually no problem.
I really haven't seen that much nynorsk to offer my view of it.
--
Anders Andersson, Dept. of Computer Systems, Uppsala University
Paper Mail: Box 325, S-751 05 UPPSALA, Sweden
Phone: +46 18 183170   EMail: andersa@DoCS.UU.SE
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: rancke@diku.dk (Hans Rancke-Madsen)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Closeness of the Nordic Languages
Date: 28 Dec 92 04:07:33 GMT
Organization: Department of Computer Science, U of Copenhagen

cb926@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Edmund Joseph Ryan) writes:

>Are Norweigan, Danish, and Swedish similar to the extent that a
>speaker of one could get by with the other two?

As far as reading the languages, yes. Understanding the spoken form
is another matter. I generally have to have Swedes repeat every
other sentense in order to understand them. But then, there are
danish dialects that I'd have about the same amount of trouble with.

(It's my impression that Swedes have an easier time understanding
Danes than vice versa. Can anyone confirm or deny this?)



      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
------------
"I know there are some people in the world who do not tolerate their
fellow human beings, and I just can't _stand_ people like that!"
                                (after Tom Lehrer)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: ddawson@mothra.syr.EDU (Dick Dawson)
Subject: Re: Finnish Defense
Organization: Syracuse University, Syracuse, NY
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 93 01:05:49 EST

In article <1992Dec13.184118.10124@nntp.hut.fi> mtf@saha.hut.fi (dalens ande) writes:
>In article <1g9632INN8m0@uwm.edu> pkokkone@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Pellervo Kokkonen) writes:

> I AM aware, however, of what happened in the Gulf War.

>Antti Lahelma   |	      mtf@saha.hut.fi 	           |   GNOTHI SEAUTON 
>Lehtotie 3     -O-	      stel@purkki.apu.fi          -*-  ====== ======= 
>00630 HELSINKI  | <<Jumalat ovat pakanoille suosiollisia>> |    TUNNE ITSESI   


What pretty much happened in the Sadsack Saddam war is that the US and
allies, having extensive techno intelligence and weaponry and plenty
of time to set it up put it to use in terrain that was essentially an
open shooting gallery.  There was essentially NO cover in Kuwait or
Iraq so targeting and delivery were relatively simple.  There also was
no great amount of mingling of the target Iraqi forces and the Kuwaiti
civilians so there was relatively little risk of damage to friendlies.
Also, the purpose was relatively simple: remove Sadsack's army from
Kuwait, at any cost to Sadsack.

A Russian attempt to occupy Finland would be a very different affair. 
The purpose would be entirely different; to establish a colony or
satellite nation.  Mass destruction would be counterproductive.  A
stout resistance might well draw heavy support form other nations,
likely including USA.  Even though the terrain of Finland is not
steeply mountainous, it is wooded and nowhere the open shooting
gallery of the Iraq desert.  If the previous reference to Hornets
means FA-18, it's an airplane that should make a good account of
itself against most Russian fighters, possibly even against Mi-29. 
There's at least 1 instance of a pair of FA-18's on a ground attack
mission into Iraq taking a few minutes off to destroy 1 or 2 attacking
Iraqi Mi fighters without having to jettison their primary ground
attack armament.  FA-18 is much slower than Mi-29 but has very
elegant and effective weaponry.

Afganistan was a sobering experience for the Russians.  It is not
wooded country but the mountainous terrain reduced the effectiveness
of hitech warfare on a large scale.  But small scale hi tech worked
well for the Afganis, particularly use of Stingers against Russian
Aircraft.  Similar results might appear in a country like Finland.

I also have some confidence that the Finnish resistance shown in 1939
might reappear if Finland was attacked again.  The unfortunate
connection with Hitler would not reappear to be an obstacle to
sympathy from other nations.

Vastly better yet, we can legitimately hope that the dramatic change
in Russian politics of the last 2 years will indicate a permanent
trend.  I truly hope that Yeltsin and his successors will not revert
to imperialist notions of the Czars, Stalin, etc.  The Russians might
well be learning the virtues of open peaceful trade.  I think the
recent START II will help also...

Dick   ddawson@mailbox.syr.edu
From: z_ablesrl@ccsvax.sfasu.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Import/Export research
Date: 29 Dec 92 00:35:09 CST
Organization: Stephen F. Austin State University

Hello all,

	We are doing research on various items that international countries
would be interested in exporting and importing.  The items can consist of
anything from clothing to large machines.  Of course, they must be a legal
product to enter and exit the different countries.  These are some questions 
that we are trying to find the answers to:
 
1.) How would we gather information concerning the legal regulations on
	shipping to or from Norway? 

2.) Who would an individual contact in that country about shipping
	requirements?  

3.) What kind of licences or paper work does a company need to enter
	that foreign market place?


I really would appreciate any help concerning this matter.  Thank you very
much for your time and hope to hear from you soon.




Sincerely,


Ron Ables

********************************************************************************
Internet Addresses:
			z_ablesrl@ccsvax.sfasu.edu
       			    
				   or
			   
			   sfa1@jetson.uh.edu

**********************************************************************************           
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic