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Approved-By:  Bill McGarry <wtm@SHELDEV.SHEL.ISC-BR.COM>
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Date:         Thu, 19 Nov 1992 09:30:50 EST
Reply-To:     Bill McGarry <wtm@sheldev.shel.isc-br.com>
From:         Bill McGarry <wtm@sheldev.shel.isc-br.com>
Subject:      Handicap Digest # 3029

                             THE HANDICAP DIGEST

                                 Issue # 3029

                         Thursday, November 19, 1992

Today's Topics:


                                ******


                                 Chair list
                          Re: chairs, chairs, chair
                          Re: weights, navels, etc
                                Re: permobil
                                   Parking
                                  Permobile
                                  Back Pain
                                    Hello
                                    Hello
                                 Realization


                                ******


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Subject: Chair list
From: Jeffrey.Vandyke@f14.n279.z1.fidonet.org (Jeffrey Vandyke)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:279/14 - Project Enable, Dunbar WV


[This is from the Spinal Injury Conference]

PN> JV> I need to get these. I'll be uploading my (incomplete)
PN> JV> wheelchair list to the Handicap News BBS, and possible the
PN> JV> Project Enable board in a week or two (be warned!). <smile>
PN> JV> So far it's about 38k unzipped.
PN> JV>
PN> JV> -- Jeff

PN>      Sounds good Jeff, how did you set up your list. Does it have all the
PN> models of chairs each manufacturer makes ? Did you include descriptions and
PN> specs? Let me know when you u/l it and I'll FREQ it.
PN>                                    Pandora

  It's just set up in order of company name. It does not have all
models, nor all manufacturers. It does include the ones I could
find or remember. It's not just for current ones, but for past
ones, so a person buying a used one, or who couldn't remember who
made theirs, could look up the manufacturer's address and phone
number.

  Descriptions and specs?  Well, only the utmost basic stuff is
included. Comprehensive data here would be almost impossible. I
have listed only what seems most unusual, such as the fact that 2
scooter manufacturers have "cabooses" available (a seat set up as
a sort of trailer) so 2 people can be transported by the same
scooter. One scooter company has a 2 cu ft cooler on a tiny 1
wheel trailer. One wheelchair is hydraulic and uses real tractor
tires on the rear, and has a trailer hitch for towing farm
trailers, tractors, mowers, etc, and has a 5 hp gas engine on the
rear for running the thing off of while outdoors, and also to
charge the batteries. Duallies are available!

  BTW, there are sure a lot of FREQing file collectors around! <g>

-- Jeff

 * SLMR 2.1a * Member, Off-Road Wheelchair Association

--
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Subject: Re: chairs, chairs, chair
From: Jeffrey.Vandyke@f14.n279.z1.fidonet.org (Jeffrey Vandyke)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:279/14 - Project Enable, Dunbar WV


[This is from the Spinal Injury Conference]

PN> JV> strength has fallen enough I have to get a new seat that will
PN> JV> practically do gymnastics.

PN> gymnastics I had to have a ton of support systems added on. I have lateral
PN> supports that hold me upright and stop me from falling over side to side and

  I use a couple of removable ones for travelling in the van, but
they get in my way too much otherwise, even they're only 1/2" thick.

PN> thigh supports that keep my legs straight up. The calf pad for the standing

  You must look pretty funny with your feet so high in the air!
<smirk> Is that why you gave up wearing skirts? <smirky smirk>
<DUCK> OUCH!!!

PN>    I said 5yrs for me because I don't think I can get another one in less th
PN> that period through my insurance co. They tend to get a little bent out of g

  I'm pretty sure mine will ok it even though it's been only 3
years, but only because I've gotten so much worse in that time.

PN> PN>Keep track of that company. I can't save the original post from here
PN> PN>and Ray's got my printer hooked up to the other machine. He
PN> JV>
PN> JV> Duh, which company? I forgot already!?
PN> JV> <shameful look on my face> Actually, you will have to remind me.

PN>      The wheelchair company that you posted about in the original msg to me.
PN>   I  think they were down in Florida. That chair sounded so great, can't wai
PN>  to see how they do when they get the bugs worked out.

  OK, I remember now. I wasn't going to worry about it, because
they said it's _at least_ 2 years down the road, and you well
know that the first year of production of a chair always has
problems. <g>

-- Jeff

 * SLMR 2.1a * Member, Off-Road Wheelchair Association

--
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Internet: Jeffrey.Vandyke@f14.n279.z1.fidonet.org



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Subject: Re: weights, navels, etc
From: Jeffrey.Vandyke@f14.n279.z1.fidonet.org (Jeffrey Vandyke)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:279/14 - Project Enable, Dunbar WV


[This is from the Spinal Injury Conference]

PN> JV> have someone push me 1/2 mile through 6" snow. Hate to tell ya,
PN> JV> but 15' on carpet ain't much! Moving those front wheels over,
PN> JV> though, is a _REAL BIG_ problem. Or did he have to push it up
PN> JV> your ramp? That's a killer. ;-(  The Steven Motor Chair and my
PN> JV> Ortopedia both were front wheel drive like the Permobile (but
PN> JV> totally different steering systems), so I know about that. I'm
PN> JV> glad Ray didn't keel over. It can be a real bear moving our
PN> JV> deluxe electrics. My sympathies.

PN>    Boy that must have been real fun. Cross your fingers and hope Ray doesn't
PN>get a chance to experience that this winter. When it died I was in the house,

  I don't envy _anyone_ having to push an electric (and my wife
has had to push me up our ramp on a number of occasions due to
bad electronics), not even if they're built like gorillas! The
best Christmas gifts you could get Ray _might_ be a back support
or a weightlifting belt, and a hernia belt!!! <g>

PN> PN> PN> JV> _My_ fuzzy navel doesn't do a thing for my wife! <burst out laff
PN> PN> PN>      Maybe if you added some liquor it would.
PN> PN> JV> Hmmm... might try that. <G>
PN> PN>    If that don't work maybe you should consider shaving.:)
PN> JV>
PN> JV> Sorry, I don't have a brush hog.  BTW, if you don't know what a
PN> JV> brush hog (and, living in the country, I can't believe you
PN> JV> don't), I'll explain it to you. <g>

PN>      Brush hog? That's got to be a regional colloquialism. Are you refering
PN>  ground hogs? We call them woodchucks or whistle pigs here.

  That's not an animal, it's a mower. It is usually about 6 feet
wide, is mounted on a 3-point (full-sized) tractor hitch. It is
used for mowing fields, highway right-of-ways, and anywhere else
grass is as tall as the tractor, and heavy brush and small tree
saplings need to be mowed. I think there really is a brand name
called that, too.
  Oh, and ground hogs are called ground hogs here. (unless you
want to call a ground hog: "sausage"! <ROLFMAO>)

-- Jeff

 * SLMR 2.1a * Member, Off-Road Wheelchair Association

--
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Internet: Jeffrey.Vandyke@f14.n279.z1.fidonet.org



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Subject: Re: permobil
From: Jeffrey.Vandyke@f14.n279.z1.fidonet.org (Jeffrey Vandyke)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:279/14 - Project Enable, Dunbar WV


[This is from the Spinal Injury Conference]

PN>     Don't know about the problem happening in shipping, but the Max and Supe
PN>  weigh the just about the same. 108kg for the Max and 115kg for the Super
PN> which works out to about 253lbs. for both. And the breakdown time was really
PN> inconsistant also I would guess that if a fracture occured in shipping it
PN> would show up relatively soon after delivery. Some of the breaks occured
PN> almost 2years later.

  Is that the weight without batteries?

  The breakdown time could still be the same cause I pointed out,
as it could weaken the case and cause premature metal fatigue.

PN> JV> I have no idea. There's almost no waiting period at my local
PN> JV> dealer. They're selling them like hotcakes.
PN>     What do mean by selling them, it's easy to sell, but when do they delive
PN>  the chair to you. Permobil sets a 3 - 4 month delivery time.

  I think that's about what it is, here, but that's not really
bad. I remember when 6 months to a year was NORMAL.

PN>    That's intresting about the Fortress. Here's something about the Fortress
PN>that just may intrest you. You can get any of the seating systems for the
PN>Permobil for the Fortress. They fit the Fortress base and several dealers are
PN>doing that.

  Now, I haven't heard that. I have a Fortress base that has a
Labac seat (that was subsequently heavily modified) and does not
use the standard Fortress mounting method. Sure wish I knew if I
could put the Permobile seat on it? Wanna find out for me?
Please?

PN>    The length of the Max is 42" and the Super is 45.5 the widths are the sam
PN>  but the tire sizes differ. the Max has fronts of 3" x 8" while the Super ha
PN>  3" x 10".

  I'll bet that's wheel size, not tire size, right? Otherwise,
the Chairman has bigger tires than both of them, and I know
that's not true! <g> The rear tires on it are little tiny things,
too.

PN>     Jeff if your looking at Permobil's literature and there standard 90 seri
PN>  catalog, the ones that are pictured have lots of the options. The Max with
PN>standard seat has the lights package and moveable legrests. The Super has the
PN>lights package (which was standard on that model) and the leg and backlift.
PN>Because of the options on those chairs they have the type of controll box tha
PN>I have. Now if the Max was stripped down and had just a standard seat and no
PN>lights or legrest they just put on the "heavy duty Joystick" That's the way
PN>the one I originally tried out at the dealers was set up. I gave you the layo
PN>for mine in another post.

  Well, I've seen the pics and a few of the chairs. I've seen
ones with lights with the E&J-type controls, so I'm beginning to
believe they can order them both ways if they really want to.

PN>      Permobile requires that to be accepted as a dealer you must take their
PN>training course. I am in constant contact with them also. In fact more than
PN>I would like to be. Heck I know every one of the techincians there by first
PN>name and they know me by voice, let alone having to give my name.

  That doesn't give me hope. It's like the hospital: if the
nurses know you by your voice, then you've been sick way too
much!

PN> PN>  The only thing I'm not sure if they changed on the chairman is the horn
PN> PN>On the Max they use a small European car horn. It is one of the better ch
PN> PN>horns I've come across.
PN> PN>                                     Pandora
PN> JV> The Europeans put real horns on chairs (except the Chairman),

PN>     What did they do on the Chairman?

  If I remember, it's just a little buzzer like the American
companies use. Please don't hold me to this particular
observation, though, because I've seen so many chairs lately that
they're starting to get mixed up in my head!

PN>     Yeah I've heard those American horn wheezes. What's great about the Max
PN>  horn is that the Max is really quiet when it is running and you can sneak u
PN>  behind a bunch of jerks standing around talking and blocking the way and th
PN>  hit that horn and watch them jump.
PN>                                        Pandora

  OK, you ARE a meanie! Sneakin' up on people and such!

-- Jeff

 * SLMR 2.1a * Member, Off-Road Wheelchair Association

--
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Internet: Jeffrey.Vandyke@f14.n279.z1.fidonet.org



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Subject: Parking
From: Jeffrey.Vandyke@f14.n279.z1.fidonet.org (Jeffrey Vandyke)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:279/14 - Project Enable, Dunbar WV


[This is from the Spinal Injury Conference]

PN> JV> May I add my observation as a 20 yr electric wheelchair user? I
PN> JV> did used to walk, before my MD got this bad, and I feel that if
PN> JV> there is only one spot left and it's a big parking lot, if a
PN> JV> person in your condition and one like me were both needing a
PN> JV> spot, I think you would need it more.  I could always park in
PN> JV> Lower Mongolia, and wheel it in. That's not much effort in an
PN> JV> electric (unless it's cold or snowy, and I'll fight you for the
PN> JV> spot then! <g>). It _is_ a considerable effort, however, to walk
PN> JV> that extra distance, as you can attest! It can even be an outing
PN> JV> cancelling event!

PN>   I think most power chair users are considerate that way. Of course you not

  I'm not so sure, myself. ;-(  I've met some real turkeys.

PN> We put a rear mount lift to give us more options in parking and have still
PN>found fools that find away to block your lift.

PN>                                            Pandora

  It sure gives you more options in parking, but I like the lift
in the side a _tiny_ bit better, because we can haul much more
cargo without having to unload the whole truck each time I get
out.

-- Jeff

 * SLMR 2.1a * Member, Off-Road Wheelchair Association

--
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Subject: Permobile
From: Jeffrey.Vandyke@f14.n279.z1.fidonet.org (Jeffrey Vandyke)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:279/14 - Project Enable, Dunbar WV


[This is from the Spinal Injury Conference]

  One more question:

  How much does it cost to replace a busted Max 90 motor?

-- Jeff

 * SLMR 2.1a * Member, Off-Road Wheelchair Association

--
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Internet: Jeffrey.Vandyke@f14.n279.z1.fidonet.org



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Subject: Back Pain
From: Joe.Chamberlain@p1.f175.n150.z1.fidonet.org (Joe Chamberlain)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:150/175.1 - Busted Flush BBS, New Castle DE


[This is from the Spinal Injury Conference]

In a message to All <03 Nov 92 22:37> Keith Jones wrote:

 KJ> exercise and see if this does not help. It works for me and I've
 KJ> spent years searching for a solution. This is not to say my back
 KJ> pain is gone, but it is tolerable.

There was a time when I abused drugs (Darvon-65 and Demerol) and
forged perscriptions to overcome my pain.  I have the same level of
pain today, but have learn to tolerate it.  I keep a pair of
aspirins on my keyboard, but they have been there for four days.  I
don't know why I have built up the tolerance to pain, but it works
for me too.

--
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Internet: Joe.Chamberlain@p1.f175.n150.z1.fidonet.org



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Subject: Hello
From: Tom.Jackson@f100.n382.z1.fidonet.org (Tom Jackson)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:382/100 - The Diest, Austin TX


[This is from the Spinal Injury Conference]

==> In a message to Ruthie Hoffman, Cindy Barnes said:

CB> >Ahhh..I just read your exchange with Linda re: your FULL removal of the
CB> >disk.  DId they do a fusion???  I've not heard of them removing the
CB> WHOLE
CB> >disk and just leaving the vertabre sitting there without a fusion!!

CB> Linda and I are still debating this issue. My records show
CB> the surgery as a discotomy, but Dr. Bradley says he only
CB> removed about 65%. The records and the doc both say they put
CB> fatty deposits into the space left by the disc removal and
CB> that because of the smallness of the space between the two
CB> vertebra it should fuse together naturally in about a year.

Interesting.  My surgeon took out about 75% of my L4/L5 (two other discs
were herniated, too, but he didn't mess with them). But he told me that they
never put anything in there to replace the lost disc. Scar tissue should
develop over time; this will never have the shock absorbing capacity of the
original disc but it's better than having the bare bone banging around.

CB> This is one of the reasons he wants me to take my time with
CB> everything I do. I still won't lift anything over 20lbs and
CB> I won't do anything that requires a lot of back action. I
CB> really do want to avoid more surgery in that area.

I was more or less free of pain the moment I came out of the recovery room,
though I have had (as my surgeon warned me) bouts of intermittant pain since
then.  Quite serious at times -- almost as bad as before surgery -- but it
goes away after a while.

I can't do a lot of the things I could do before I injured myself, but I get
by.  I recently went on a fishing trip to Alaska, and only had three spasms
in the two weeks I was there (I think these were caused by the vibrations
I received while riding in boats and small planes). In one of them, I fell
over backwards but _didn't_ spill my beer; my friends were very impressed.

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Subject: Hello
From: Tom.Jackson@f100.n382.z1.fidonet.org (Tom Jackson)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:382/100 - The Diest, Austin TX


[This is from the Spinal Injury Conference]

RK> the sysop of The P/T BBS in Cleona, PA. I have a medial disk
RK> "injury" bulge in the L4-L5 disk since March 1991. I was off
RK> of work for over a year and have returned back part-time the
RK> end of April 1992. I am still experiencing pain in my back,
RK> buttocks (tailbone area) and down the right leg into the
RK> foot. My three center toes on the right foot have numbness
RK> and/or cramping. I also experience muscle spasms, mostly at
RK> night when I am sleeping.

This sounds familiar.

RK>     I have been through water therapy, physical therapy,
RK> nerve blocks, every known anti-inflammatory, and other
RK> medications. Each not helping me in becoming pain free or
RK> having the movement I used to have.

I injured myself in July, 1990, while on a fishing trip to Wyoming.  My
doctor back here in Austin (I drove back; I'm still not sure how, except I
remember hurting a _lot_) said that it was a "pulled muscle."  He said that
it was a pulled muscle for the next ten months, during which time I
began limping around like a corkscrew with feet, was unable to work,
and just generally hurt all the time.  Finally he said he was
concerned about my pain, and he sent me to a specialist.  My back doctor
figured out what was going on with my lumbar at once and gave me several
treatment options. I chose a six week course of anti-inflammatories (what's
another six weeks after 11 months?). When that didn't do any good I told him
to sharpen up the scalpel, because I wanted the knife.

It was the best decision I've ever made.

RK>     My doctors do not want to operate do to the fear of
RK> scare tissue creating more problems than the bulge is
RK> creating now....The last time I
RK> went to my neuro-surgeon, he told me that I will have to
RK> learn to live the pain, and know my limitations. He says the
RK> combination of the bulge and the degeneration I have to
RK> learn to with it.

This sounds strange to me.  I had herniated discs at L2, L3, and L4/L5.  My
surgeon (once he had sharpened that scalpel) removed most of the one at
L4/L5.  According to the surgery report, the discs were degenerating.  Yet
my back doctor never told me I'd have to just live with the pain -- he gave
me a variety of treatment options.  You seem to have had most of them
already.  I chose the knife because I felt I had nothing to lose.  I was
tired of being in pain.  And it worked.

I don't know if surgery will work for you or not, but it's something you
might want to consider.  Let me know what happens.

--
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Internet: Tom.Jackson@f100.n382.z1.fidonet.org



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Subject: Realization
From: Linda.Cummings@f34.n375.z1.fidonet.org (Linda Cummings)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:375/34 - Batteries Included, Montgomery AL


[This is from the Spinal Injury Conference]

 > I think a brochure wouldn't be enough. Not sure what would.
 > Open communication with my wife only communicates a little. I
 > think complete understanding can come for someone only when
 > you've truly experienced the real thing.

And the well spouses haven't experienced the real thing.  The only
thing that has come close for Eddie was a bursitis attack in his
shoulder.  He said it was very painful.  It was all I could do to
keep from saying, "And, now imagine that pain in the lower back,
tailbone, and all the way down both legs."  It would have sounded
like complaining, and I try not to do that.  Sometimes, I just
can't help telling how I really feel, though.

 >   No, I think _most_ people would understand why you would want
 > one. Maybe you can hobble a few steps, but where does that get
 > you? Not far, plus a _lot_ of pain!

(Note:  What we're talking about here folks [for those reading over
our shoulders] is the fact that I've asked my neurosurgeon about
the possibility of getting myself a wheelchair.  There are times
when I can't go shopping, to the mall, on an outing, because there
is no wheelchair available.  I thought maybe you guys might think I
was nuts for even suggesting this to my neuro because a lot of you
would give anything NOT to be in a wheelchair.  Jeffrey and I have
discussed this in detail in the Abled echo before we brought it
here.

 >   Consider it switched. I didn't know what conferences you got,
 > after that message you sent me the other day!

Besides a lot of the Adanet echo's, I mainly stay in Abled, Chronic
Pain, and Spinal Injury.

Linda

--
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                                ******

                  End of Issue # 3029 of the Handicap Digest

                                ******
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU