From: tpe36878@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Mr. Mensa )
Subject: Re: lighten up, people
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 05:03:37 GMT
Keywords: faith 

duncan@brolga.cc.uq.oz.au (Duncan McCardle) writes:


>>	1) the idea of God is not illogical. I am a scientist (an astronomer),
>>	and I believe in God. I believe that He (or whatever pc pronoun you
>>	see fit to insert) created the Universe. BUT: I also believe 100% in
>>	the natural laws that control the Universe (ie Big Bang, Worm Holes,
>>	Black Holes, etc.) I am VERY interested in correspondance with someone
>>	who has a differing opinion on this.

>I'm sorry, I don't BELIEVE in 'the natural laws that control the Universe',
>I know they exist because I see them in operation everyday. I've got
>*evidence* for nature. However I don't find the same to be true of 'God'.

	Hmmmm.....did you happen to see the title of the original post...?

>>	2) to believe in a God does not imply religiosity. Believing in a
>>	higher being does not mean that one is necessarily a relious person.
>>	For that matter, it does not even imply--if the person is religious--
>>	that he (I don't believe in pc, sorry) is a `religious freak'.

>Correct, however 'religious freaks', by definition, have to believe. Ergo
>no belief -> no 'religious freaks' -> happier world.

	Well...I think this is the sort of thinking I was telling people to
	lighten up on. What I was trying to do was let other people know how
	I believe and to invite those who believe differently to e-mail me
	or post so that we could discuss it further. You see, I am the sort
	of person who is very open-minded; I really like to hear what other 
	people think and believe....it seems to me that you are not, and oh
	well, I think how I want and you think how you want....that's what
	makes this world a wonderful place to live in.

>>	3) God is not a person! I am Catholic (err, no comments please) and I
>>	do not believe that God is a person, per se. He (see above note) does
>>	not have a physical existence. He is a spirit of Love. One will
>>	never 'see God' in a physical sense, because that is simply not how
>>	He exists.

>Well I guess the *nice* thing about 'God' and religion is that you can all
>have your very own *nice* little convenient definition of it all. No need
>to worry about problems etc, just redefine your belief to exclude all the
>unpleasant or hard stuff. 

	I think what you are getting confused is the notion of a personal
	relationship with God. For each person this is different. There is 
	hardly anyone who changes his/her belief in God to 'exclude all the
	unpleasant or hard stuff.' You see, I think that those who believe in
	God simply have a better way to deal with the hardships and pain of
	everyday life. A belief in God does not explain away anything. He is
	not a magical being who does things on a whim like the Greek and Roman
	legends of Zeus and company. He will not zap someone for not believing
	in Him, He will not win someone the lottery just because this person
	really needs the money. God does things in a very subtle way, and when
	we (I am referring to those of us who believe in God) realize these
	things, we realize how beautiful our relationship with Him is. For
	example, right now I am in love. Now it is hard for me to deny that
	I can feel God's presence in this relationship...it is through 
	this realization (you may call it an excuse or cop-out if you wish)
	that I know how wonderful this girl is and how amazing this whole
	entire thing is. If you are in the same situation, you probably will
	not feel this, but then again (I am assuming) you do not believe in
	God.
>	
>>	4) the Bible (to me, at least) is not a literal work. Come on, people..
>>	who really believes that the Universe was created in SIX DAYS?!?! BUT:
>>	whereas it is not literal, it is not fiction, either. This may seem
>>	confusing, but I had it explained to me very well by the little-known
>>	author James Connor. The stories in the Bible are there to teach us
>>	how to live our lives.
>>	
>>	5) finally, LIGHTEN UP PEOPLE!!!! Geez. I mean, as if. People, people
>>	people.....there is one and only one way to prove the existence of
>>	God......

>I would LOVE to lighten up, unfortunately some people *do* take the bible
>literally, and they wont 'Lighten Up'. So while religious beliefs, in all
>their myriad forms, threaten my (or anyone else's) freedoms, while believers
>continue to harass me and insult my opinions and treat me with intolerence
>and hatred, while all this continues to occur I'm afraid I'm NOT going to
>lighten up. All I want is to be left alone to live my life as I see fit.
>I'm only too happy to extend the same courtesy to everyone else, but I'll
>defend myself against anyone to tries to tell me what to think. 

	Again, do you have some sort of problem that perhaps some people
	believe differently than you? I believe there have been some
	wonderful thinkers in this century who have also had problems
	with those who thought differently than themselves.....Hitler and
	Stalin are two that come to mind right now........... And another
	thing....I am not trying to tell you what to think...in fact, I am
	not the sort of person who does that, and you shouldn't assume that
	most who are Christians (or any other faith for that matter) would
	like to tell you what to think, either. All I am trying to do here
	(as I have said before) is to strike up a NON-EMOTIONAL discussion
	with someone who believes differently than myself. I think it would
	be very interesting, and if EITHER ONE OF US should change the way
	we think, then oh well...that's not my intention at all.

	In Nomine Patris et filiis et Spiritus Sancti....
	thomas ehardt
	tpe36878@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu