From: viznyuk@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Ethnic violence in ESTONIA?
Date: 14 Oct 92 18:28:34 GMT
Article-I.D.: ohstpy.14232.2adc2e92

In article <1992Oct12.003251.1@cc.helsinki.fi>, thietaniemi@cc.helsinki.fi writes:
> In article <Bvt9yr.2IC@apollo.hp.com>, goykhman_a@apollo.hp.com 
> (Alex Goykhman) writes:
>> In article <1992Oct8.131103.1@cc.helsinki.fi> thietaniemi@cc.helsinki.fi 
> writes:
>> ....
>>>There are very few jews in Estonia. One of the first things the Savisaar
>>>government did in 1989, was to secure them their rights to form associations.
>>>There is no "jewish problem" in Estonia. Just your nightmares.
>>>
>>>with the best regards
>>>
>>>Tapani Hietaniemi, University of Helsinki
> 
> I still stick to my opinion expressed above: as an eager reader of Estonian
> press, I have not noticed anything antisemitic in them. Neither I have seen any
> notices of Estonian antisemitic violence in Finnish press (which is very keen
> to point the bad sides of the Estonians). The other countries do not follow the
> Estonian development so near, therefore these should be the best sources.

As we already know, the Finnish and Swedish media is very selective
when writing about events in supposely "democratic" Estonia & Latvia.

> 
> Anyway, your subject was: ethnic VIOLENCE against jews in Estonia. 
> Nevertheless, even when attacking Estonia you refer only to one violent
> act that had happened in reality.

  How many do you need ?  Should we assume that Jews
and other non-Estonians are fleeing Estonia because of
excess of democracy ?

>> 
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>     RUSSIAN JEWS FLEE DANGER IN ESTONIA
>>     By Jonathatan Broder
>>     "WE" Washington Bureau, 09/21-10/04, 1992
>>     (excerpted without permission)
>> 
>> Estonia's Jewish Community is fleeing back to Russia to escape anti-semitic
>> attacks and new citizenship laws that discriminate against those who do not
>> speak Estonian.
> 
> First, I would like to know something about this "Bureau". The last sentence
> is very typical to those reactionary groups in Russian parliament....
> I think this "Bureau" is framing Estonians and spreading disinformation.

yeah, everywhere are KGB agents, you know... spreading disinformation
about honest Estonians...

> 
>> ....
>> "The fact that Jews are leaving is not only because they are Jewish but
>> because they are Russian" said a US official that closely monitors events
>> in Estonia.
>  
> During this year, many Russian speakers are leaving Estonia. This is correct.

Ah, at least one fact you managed to acknowledge. Good progress.

> 
>> But according to B'nai Brith, and American Jewish organization that looks
>> out for the welfare of Jews worlwide, the rising tide of Estonian
>> nationalism also has turned the Jewish community into a target of anti-
>> Semitic attacks.
> 
> Here, no information is given. Just empty accusations. Combining
> antisemitism and Estonian nationalism together is just ignorant.
> 
>> 
>> In the past few weeks, Estonian nationalists has desecrated more than
>> 80 Jewish graves in the central city of Tartu where assailants also
>> firebombed a Jewish cultural center.  The desecrations were the fourth
>> such incident since last November.
> 
> As you were answered already, it is suspected that some Russian speakers
> might have done this - there certainly is much anti-semitism in Skt.
> Petersburg! I would like to emphasize that we do not know who is behind these
> detestable deeds. Probably some Estonian or Russian lunatics, which will
> be arrested by Estonian police when caught.

hmmm, those "Russian speakers" should be really adventurous, once
they came to Estonia to desecrate Jewish graves, while leaving
the Jewish graves in St.Peterburg untouched.

> 
> Firebombing a Jewish cultural centre was totally new to me. I have not read 
> about it from the press. Unfortunately I can't call Tartu today. But I will

Better take a train to Tartu, dear Thietaniemi. It would help better than
calling Estonian nationalists by phone and asking them to confirm/deny
anything concerning their deeds.

> clarify this theme later on. This interests me: it might be a sign of
> skinhead-activities I am waiting to emerge in Estonia. Accusing "Estonian
> nationalists" in this context is just ignorant. Estonian nationalists are
> interested in restituting the Estonian republic. Antisemitists persecute
> the jews. Do not mix them up, if you want to argue something in an intellectual
> manner.
> 
>> U.S. State Department officials say a number of anti-Semitic articles 
>> appeared in mass-circulation Estonian newspapers, including one that
>> said the Talmud, the book of Judaism's teachings, urges Jews to kill
>> gentiles [sounds familiar?].  Several members of Estonia's Jewish 
>> community received telephone death threats, the officials say.
>  
> In which newspapers? Estonia has the freedom of speech nowadays, so even
> this kind of rubbish could be published anywhere by any lunatic.
> It is possible, that this kind of articles have been written. But I deeply
> suspect that any major newspaper would print such stuff in Estonia.
> Name the newspapers, and I check the facts. Besides, were those alleged 
> articles written in Estonian or in Russian? Are you accusing the Estonian
> or Russian press in Estonia?
> 
> Maybe somebody has received threats by telephone. Such actitivity will
> be criminally prosecuted in Estonia. And: in which language were the threats 
> expressed?

In Zulu..

> 
>> "The Jews of Estonia are frightened, and they are leaving" said Buzzy
>> Gordon, a B'nai Brith spokesman.
>> ....
> 
> No new information. Just empty accusations.
> 
>> Only 2,500 Jews remain among Tallinn's 600,000 residents.  That number,
>> B'nai Brith says, is less than half of the Jews who made up the centuries-
>> old Estonian Jewish community only a year ago.
> 
> This is the only interesting piece of information. I must check some statistics
> by Tallinn officials. You claim that a half of Tallinn jewish population
> that amounted 5000 in the year 1991 has moved from Tallinn (certainly not 
> towards Russia!). I am not even sure how we could know that... Are there 
> statistics about "jews" in Estonian public offices? I doubt that but I check 
> it anyway in the very near future.

Better check with your doctor.

> 
> I suspect the information of this "Bureau". It does not even know how many
> residents Tallinn has: 484,400 (in the year 1990).
>  
>> The attacks and threats against the Jewish community appear to have
>> intensified after Jewish leaders in Tartu protested officially
>> sanctioned plans to celebrate the 50th anniversary of the Estonian
>> Legion - a group of Estonians who fought against the Soviets during
>> WWII on the side of the Nazis.
>> 
> 
> Tartu and the Tartu University have many famous jewish scholars that
> decided to move to Tartu from Russia because of Russian anti-semitism.
> 
> I must check this "planned" celebration of Estonian legion. 
> It sounds irritating and shameful. But you are not claiming that
> this kind of celebration has taken place, I must emphasize.

  Your feeble attempts to embelish Estonian regime look
like those of mentally disaranged. While confronting with
facts you blabber away with "I will check, I will call..".
Call you doctor - I bet he/she will tell you the devastating truth...

Serega & Co
 
> 
>> The Estonian Legion became the 20th Division of the SS, whose special
>> Einzatzgruppen commando units were responsible for the roundup and
>> execution of hundreds of thousands of Jews in the Baltics and former
>> Soviet Union.  After the war, some legionnaires fought a guerilla
>> war against the Soviets before they were crushed.
>> ....
> 
> I have no reason whatsoever to "explain" the deeds of Estonian (or Finnish
> or British etc.) fascists. They could drop dead so much I care.
> 
> Claiming that the guerilla warfare in Estonia against the reds was "fascist"
> activity is ignorant. Of course, even the fascists might have done some
> resistance before they were crushed. And I can't rule out the possibility that
> some individual guerillas had previously fought with the fascists (and had 
> therefore no future in Stalinistic Estonia).
>  
>> Contrary to what Tapani Hietaniemi claims, there is a "jewish problem" 
>> in Estonia, but thanks to Estonian nationalists at home and abroad,
>> a final "solution" seems to be within the reach.
> 
> You should be ashamed of posting this kind of nationalist hatred propaganda!
> 
> - No record of ethic violence against the jews in Estonia was given by you,
> if we exclude the firebomb in Tartu with no casualties. This detestable deed
> might have taken place but it does not prove that jews would be persecuted in 
> Estonia. It would only prove that there were some underground racist activities
> rising, which already in itself would be unfortunate indeed.
> 
> - There is no anti-semitist legislation in Estonia neither antisemitism is
> supported any way by the Estonian government (Estonia had a left-wing
> government, by the way, until previous week.).
> 
> - No Estonian party in Estonian parliament has presented anti-semitist
> slogans. I am tempted to say that there are no anti-semitists in parliament,
> but I do not know all 101 deputies thoroughly enough.
> 
> - Anti-semitism is no discussed issue in Estonian politics.
> 
> 
> It's just some reactionary Russian circles that keep up painting the
> portrait of Dorian Gray.
> 
> 
> with the best regards
> the observer
> Tapani Hietaniemi, University of Helsinki
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.jewish