HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: dick.zeitlin%acc1bbs@ssr.com (Dick Zeitlin) 
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.misc
Subject: Re: radios and non-pilots
Date: 14 Nov 92 21:34:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Advanced Computer Concepts BBS, New Rochelle, NY 914-654-1981
Reply-To: dick.zeitlin%acc1bbs@ssr.com (Dick Zeitlin) 

WP> .So how does one go about helping a particularly annoying *%$#head
  > .*get* caught?  This past Summer I experienced persistant problems from a
  > .couple of different sources.

Contact the local FCC Field Engineering office, and talk to them.
Suggest that the usage of the frequency 123.5 does not appear to be in
accordance with Part 87 Subpart K, and request that they investigate.
Follow up in writing, and give them as much detail as possible.  Once
you put things in writing, it's far more difficult for them to ignore
it.

        D/

 * OLX 2.2 * Bring back A-N airways!!    Dick.Zeitlin%acc1bbs@ssr.com
From: masys@nlm.nih.gov (Dr. Daniel R. Masys)
Subject: Re: Place to eat near Maryland or Del
Organization: National Library of Medicine
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 92 12:43:10 GMT

In article <By1rqI.DMB@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> goose@sage.cc.purdue.edu (Pilot) writes:
>>Can anyone suggest a Airport with a restrant that has
>>good seafood ..??
>>
>  The BEST place for lunch is the 94th Aerodrome Restaurant on the field
>at College Park Airport, Maryland.

...but it sure isn't the best place for seafood.  Besides, there are
94th Aero's scattered all over the country.  Hemingway's overlooking the
Chesapeake is a one of a kind.

Dan Masys
masys@nlm.nih.gov

Newsgroups: rec.aviation
From: peted@microsoft.com (Peter Duniho)
Subject: Re: annual checkride
Date: 17 Nov 92 21:33:14 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corporation
Distribution: rec

In article <1992Nov13.210116.4431@bradley.bradley.edu> maverick@buhub.bradley.edu (Darin Petersen) writes:
>Does anyone know if this [private pilot w/ < 400 hours requires an
>annual instead of biannual checkride] rule is in effect?  I'd like
>to know before I go flying next time and log a big admission of
>guilt in my logbook.

Well, according to the chief instructor at my flying club, they
decided against this rule (though, my copy of the FARs does have
this rule in it).  Of course, this is the same person that told
me that I only needed one takeoff and landing in the last 90 days
to be current to fly with passengers, so maybe a grain of salt is
in order.
-- 
Pete Duniho         "Give me a fish, or a mountain, to scale..."
peted@microsoft.com              -- Toy Matinee
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 13:43:47 EST
From: <RSM2@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
Subject: FOR SALE Taylorcraft BC12

1941 Taylorcraft BC12, Continental A65 2728TT, 566SMOH, New Metal Prop 520Hrs
Annualed 6/92, Standard Equipment with ELT.  $7995

Send replies to RIG@ARLVAX.PSU.EDU
or phone (814) 355-3407 or (814) 865-2957 (8-5 est)  Location:  Bellefonte, PA
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
From: rls@uihepa.hep.uiuc.edu (Ray Swartz (Oh, that guy again))
Subject: Re: AIRLINE IN-FLIGHT REFULEING
Reply-To: rls@uihepa.hep.uiuc.edu
Organization: Vis-Orb Tragnetics Recorporation
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1992 11:30:55 GMT

In article <1992Nov21.191135.12538@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu>, mperlman@nyx.cs.du.edu (Marshal "Airborne" Perlman) writes:

>I was just thinking, commercial jets are big and heavy, and they carry
>a hell of a lot of fuel... right? Well at 6ppg, it adds up... and
>for the most part, you are burning fuel to carry fuel right?
>
>When/where would it make sence for air lines to have in flight refueling?
[...]

	Well, if you have a tanker up there to fuel the planes, aren't you
still "burning fuel to carry fuel"?  Also, it is not legal for U>S> registered
aircraft to fly formation with other aircraft.  It's in the FARs that you
cannot do formation flight in a flight "for compensation or hire".  There are
other reasons, such as the many things that could go wrong (any AF types want
to give examples here?).


Raymond L. Swartz Jr. (rls@uihepa.hep.uiuc.edu)
================================================================================
I read the newspaper today and was amazed that, in 24 hours, five billion
people could accomplish so little.
================================================================================
From: bkorb@starbase.Convergent.Com (Bruce Korb)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
Subject: What happened at RHV?
Date: 23 Nov 92 20:55:31 GMT
Reply-To: bkorb@convergent.com
Distribution: ba
Organization: Unisys Open Systems Group, San Jose

I can't get *any* of the rec.av.* groups, so unless it's posted here,
I don't get it!!  :-(

-- 
   Bruce Korb  (bkorb@convergent.com)   (408) 456-5507
   Convergent Technologies, aka Unisys, aka Sperry Univac, aka Burroughs
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
From: aboyd@quantum.on.ca (Andrew Boyd)
Subject: Re: WEATHERMATION INFO
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 92 15:59:37 GMT
Organization: Quantum Software Systems

In article <7321.841.uupcb@bville.gts.org> edward.march@bville.gts.org 
(Edward March)  writes:
>Does anyone know if either of Toronto's two airports carries
>WeatherMation info that can be accessed by computer.

In canada, the only vendor of computer wx reports for civil aviation 
that I know of is "weatherwatch" (or some such) in markham, ont.  

Available via X.25, costs $0.70 per minute (roughly).  I wish we had a 
freebie program like the US.
----
#include <std.disclaimer>
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
From: bullock@watson.bms.com (JOAN BULLOCK)
Subject: Re: Place to eat near Maryland or Del
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.4-b1  
Organization: Bristol Myers Squibb Pharmaceutical Research Institute
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 21:02:00 GMT

In article <Bxz7yy.92t@apollo.hp.com>, inglis_p@apollo.HP.COM (Pete Inglis) 
writes...

RE: a request for info about MD/DE seafood restaurants:

>Also Wilmington DE. has restaurants w/in walkink distance.

One of these is an _excellent_ seafood restaurant.  I'm sorry but I can't 
recall its name.  (?? Inn or ?? House)  It's a dressy sort of place but I 
don't remember the prices being too steep.  Located directly across the 
highway from the terminal building.  There's even a convenient traffic light.  
Tower will know where you want to go.  

I hope the original poster will file a trip report.  Yum, I can taste that 
softshell crab already.


Joan

Newsgroups: rec.aviation,rec.aviation.misc
From: tima@CFSMO.Honeywell.COM (Timothy D Aanerud)
Subject: Re: GET DUATS Flyer (& rec.aviators)
To: rec.aviation.misc
Posted-Date: Mon, 16 Nov 92 16: 06:51 CST
Mailer: Elm [revision: 64.9]
Organization: Honeywell Systems & Research Center
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 22:06:51 GMT
Received-Date: Mon, 16 Nov 92 16: 07:05 CST


When I received my copy of the the GET DUATS Flyer, I imediately recognized
the gesticuletee as a software developer of inertial reference systems.  I
am more than 95% confident that I was with two nautical miles of the Contel
booth when the photo in question was taken. 

The gesticuletee's black T-shirt is a public service announcement for
the Southern Minnesota Wing's B-25, Miss Mitchell.  I'll have to check with
Robert J. Gravin (rjq@umnstat.stat.umn.edu) if I can trade my issue of the
DUATS Flyer for a ride in the Silver Wrench award winning B-25 at Oshkosh '92.
Miss Mitchell's homebase is only 15 minute away in a Cessna 150.

The panama hat was purchased in Matamoros Mexico.  Just across the border
from Brownsville Texas.  This has protected me from sunburn on my face and
neck at Oshkosh since 1987.  It has served me well.

The colorful pants will be back at Oshkosh '93 due to popular demand!

--
We will get you there within       |           Timothy Aanerud
 2 NM/hr, 95% of the time...       |  Honeywell Commercial Flight Systems
                                   |      Makers of Laser Gyro IRU's
       N45 07.9  W93 16.6          |         tima@cfsmo.honeywell.com
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
Subject: Portland, OR Flt Schools
From: <QUIST@NDSUVM1.BITNET>
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 16:22:34 CST
Organization: North Dakota Higher Education Computer Network

I'm looking for flight schools (Part 61 or 141) in the Portland, OR area, prefe
rably associated with a service center or FBO.  Someone who lives in this area
or knows of any, please reply...Thanks

quist@vm1.nodak.edu
From: d6jvb@dtek.chalmers.se (Johan von Boisman)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
Subject: For sale: Pilatus Porter
Date: 21 Nov 92 15:12:30 GMT
Organization: Chalmers University of Technology, Gothenburg Sweden


In view of getting a larger aircraft, Gothenburg Parachute Club
now offers a Pilatus Porter in very good condition. Contact me
for more info.

tel + 46 31 16 30 42
fax + 46 31 20 79 29

Johan von Boisman          Chalmers University of Technology
d6jvb@dtek.chalmers.se     Gothenburg, SWEDEN

--
Johan von Boisman          Chalmers University of Technology
d6jvb@dtek.chalmers.se     Gothenburg, SWEDEN
From: dls@freedom.genrad.com (Diana L. Carlson)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
Subject: Re: Civil Air Patrol/CAP thoughts
Date: 20 Nov 1992 07:23:21 -0500
Organization: GenRad, Inc.
Distribution: usa
NNTP-Posting-Host: freedom.genrad.com

In article <1eh38kINNf06@grapevine.EBay.Sun.COM> kamikaze@wargamer.EBay.Sun.COM writes:
>
>
>
>In article 1edd3pINNkgh@freedom.genrad.com, dls@freedom.genrad.com (Diana L. Carlson) writes:
>
>Since it wasn't mentioned, are there any restrictions for (now let's be PC) male facial hair?

You can't have a beard when wearing the USAF style uniforms.  A neat mustache
is ok (I THINK???? Help me out, male CAPers!).  However, you can wear any of
the other non-USAF uniforms if you have a beard.

Diana


-- 
->Diana L. (Syriac) Carlson dls@genrad.com	Ham: KC1SP (Sweet Pea)      <-
->I'D RATHER BE FLYING!	P-ASEL, INST		CAP: CPT, Freedom 690 Mobile<-
->AD ASTRA, PER ASPERA				Airplane: C-172 N6513E	    <-
->GenRad, MS/6, 300 Baker Ave, Concord, Mass.  01742  (508)369-4400 x2459   <-
From: wb8foz@skybridge.SCL.CWRU.Edu (David Lesher)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
Subject: Re: Civil Air Patrol/CAP thoughts
Date: 21 Nov 1992 00:09:25 GMT
Organization: NRK Clinic for habitual NetNews abusers - Beltway Annex
Distribution: usa
Reply-To: wb8foz@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu (David Lesher)
NNTP-Posting-Host: skybridge.scl.cwru.edu

Others said
# With the CAP stype uniforms, Cousin It
# from the Addams family would fit.

Cousin It ain't the question....
Will they accept Thing in an Ercoupe?
--
A host is a host from coast to coast..wb8foz@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu
& no one will talk to a host that's close..........................
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433
Xref: sparky rec.aviation:17310 rec.aviation.piloting:366
From: avia@spaero.kharkov.ua (Aviation Branch)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation,rec.aviation.piloting
Subject: Difficulties with fuel in Greenland
Date: 15 Nov 92 19:48:09 GMT
Reply-To: avia@spaero.kharkov.ua
Organization: Special aviation enterprice SPAERO

Anybody who can help, very urgent business.

Are there any difficulties in getting fuel in Greenland.

Thanks in advance.

Our address:
avia%spaero.kharkov.ua@relay.ussr.eu.net
From: avia@spaero.kharkov.ua (Aviation Branch)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
Subject: HELP! Very urgent business. Are there any difficulties in getting fuel in Greenland? Thanks in advance.
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 92 19:49:10 +0200
Distribution: world
Organization: Special aviation enterprice SPAERO
Reply-To: avia@spaero.kharkov.ua



Newsgroups: rec.aviation
From: masys@nlm.nih.gov (Dr. Daniel R. Masys)
Subject: Re: Place to eat near Maryland or Del
Organization: National Library of Medicine
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 92 13:20:26 GMT

In article <stellabo.722030534@phage.cshl.org> stellabo@phage.cshl.org (Fred Stellabotte in Computer Center - CSHL) writes:
>I am planning a flight south from NY to Maryland or
>Del. .. This Sunday .. Just for lunch ..
>Can anyone suggest a Airport with a restrant that has
>good seafood ..??
>
As several folks have already noted, Bay Bridge is a good choice.
(Greetings from air commuter N85868, a red and white Skylane on
the Bay Bridge ramp).  The other good possibility is the Airport
Cafe at Easton which is known for its crab cake delicacies.  At
Hemingway's near Bay Bridge, you can sit and watch the boats on the
bay; at Easton you can sit and watch your airplane.

Dan Masys
masys@nlm.nih.gov
From: beglin@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Gordon Beglin)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
Subject: Re: Place to eat near Maryland or Del
Date: 18 Nov 92 11:24:25 GMT
Reply-To: beglin@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Gordon Beglin)
Distribution: usa
Organization: Carderock Division, NSWC, Bethesda, MD

In rec.aviation, stellabo@phage.cshl.org (Fred Stellabotte in Computer Center - CSHL) writes:
>I am planning a flight south from NY to Maryland or
>Del. .. This Sunday .. Just for lunch ..
>
>Can anyone suggest a Airport with a restrant that has
>good seafood ..??
>
>What about Tangeir Island ..?? has any one been there ..?
>Is anything open this time of the year ..??
>

As chance would have it, four of us ventured down to Tangier
just last Saturday, the 14th. One of the passengers (another
pilot) had been there some time ago and urged us to go to the
restaurant there....

The flight down was uneventful, other than converging with a
local pilot who was using a left-hand pattern for runway 2
instead of a right-hand one---I *never* knew you were supposed
to enter the pattern opposite of what the A.F.D. calls for and
then spiral down on final from about 1000'AGL. But the locals
do it, so what the heck...

To make a short story from becoming even longer, the restaurant
was closed and we settled for a bag of pretzels and a diet (yuk)
pepsi! So, I wouldn't recommend Tangier this time of year....

Maybe next time, we'll fly to the Bahamas for a bag of potato
chips.....

The only place I've heard of is on or near Bay Bridge airport.
Easton has a nice Cafe, too.

Good luck,
Gordon Beglin
^^^^^^ ^^^^^^--One who has been to Tangier and ain't-a-goin' back!
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.owning
From: aboyd@quantum.on.ca (Andrew Boyd)
Subject: Re: Early C172's W/Continental O300
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 92 17:03:39 GMT
Organization: Quantum Software Systems

In article <1992Nov19.215533.21104@nmsu.edu> bboswell@dante.NMSU.Edu (BOSWELL) writes:
>It seems our 1960 172A with the 6-cylinder Continental O300 has a compression  
>problem on two of it's cylinders so it's been grounded.

What are the differential compression numbers for all 6 cylinders? (ie 65/80)
Where are the problem cylinders leaking?  This is pretty easy to figure
out while you are doing the compression test:  where is the hissing coming
from?

	Symptom					Cause
	-------					-----
	Exhaust pipe hissing    Burned exhaust valve
	Oil breather hissing    Rings worn/broken, cylinder walls worn.
	Air Filter hissing      Intake valve is not happy (unusual)

To fix any of these, yes, you're probably going to have to pop the
problem jug off - at least, if this is the extent of your problems,
at least you won't have to $plit the crankca$e.

Thing you have to figure out is why the particular failure occured so
soon since major - are people leaning excessively, esp in climb, and 
frying the exhaust valves?  Did you get a bargain "varsol overhaul"
to service limits, in which case you really didn't get a major?
----
#include <std.disclaimer>
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.owning
From: geoff@peck.com (Geoff Peck)
Subject: Re: Aircraft Financing
Organization: Geoffrey G. Peck, Consultant, San Jose CA
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1992 07:00:00 GMT

In article <1992Nov21.173240.16017@eplrx7.es.duPont.com>
rogersmf@eplrx7.es.duPont.com (Mark Rogers) asks about aircraft loans.

Most banks and financial institutions will either not write an aircraft
loan or will suggest that such a loan could be issued either (a) as an
unsecured personal loan or (b) as a recreational vehicle loan.  Neither
one of these will carry a particularly advantageous interest rate, and
partnerships may not be able to obtain such loans.

Some banks do issue aircraft loans -- if you reside in California, check
with Riverside National Bank (they don't do business out of state);
elsewhere, contact MBNA, who has a loan program called AirPower Loans
which is associated with AOPA (call 1-800-USA-AOPA).  Both of these
institutions will issue aircraft loans for substantially longer terms and
at substantially lower rates than unsecured personal loans or recreational
vehicle loans.  Both of them can frequenly accommodate partnerships.

Another alternative is to utilize the equity in your house, via either
a second mortgage or a secured line of credit.  The advantages of this
route include a lower interest rate, and potential tax deductibility of
the interest.  However, in an aircraft partnership, loans secured by
your residence may not be a good idea because financial instability on
the part of one of the partners could easily result in reposession of
the aircraft with little or no recourse on the part of the other
partners.

						Geoff
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.owning
From: stephens@access.digex.com (John Stephens)
Subject: Re: Cherokee 140 vs. C-172
Organization: Severn Companies, Inc., Lanham, MD 20706
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 18:20:37 GMT

In article <1992Nov23.155711.16741@nuchat.sccsi.com> conover@nuchat.sccsi.com (Mark Allen Conover) writes:
>May I have some opinions on the following thought process?
>
>All of my training time has been in a C-152.  Just fine for training, but 
>marginal for cross-country flying involving more than one adult human.  So,
>with a Cessna state of mind, I pretty much took it for granted that a 172
>would be the right plane to purchase.  After reading about the plane's
>performance specs, however, I am doubting that.  For x-c flying, it 
>apparently is really a three adult plane.   
>
>If I am willing to settle for a three-person aircraft, why not purchase
>a less expensive PA28-140?  The Cherokee-140's listed in TAP are roughly 
>$7,000-$10,000 less than the 172's.  From what I have read, the PA28-140 has
>the capability (like the 172) of carrying four adult humans (but not with full
>fuel, again like the 172).  I understand that the original 140 model didn't
>have a rear seat, but was a popular option package.  Many of the ones listed
>in TAP indicate this.
>
>So, folks, I am curious to know what I would be giving up by purchasing a 
>little Cherokee?  Am I missing something?  
>
>Thank you.
>
>Mark Conover  //conover@nuchat.sccsi.com

I am a C-172 owner and driver, with only a little time in a 140, so take my
comments appropriately...

The C-172 has advantages if you plan to work out of short, unpaved
fields -- the high wing and (I believe) better short-field
performance.  The high wing also means that you don't get wet if
it's raining while you load/unload.  Also, with two doors, getting
in and out is easier.  I also believe the second door is a
substantial safety factor!

The 140s that i flew seemed a bit more stable and the engine felt
"smoother" than most 172s.  I didn't like the "remember to switch
fuel tanks" routine -- the gravity fed, "both at once" cessna
arrangement is safer (imho  :-) ).

These differences don't seem to amount to a heck of a lot -- a
good price differential, as long as it didn't mean greater
inconvenience when you had to get maintenance/parts, etc., would
swing my vote.

In my case, I want to keep my plane on leaseback to cut ownership
costs, and in my area (GAI/MD), there is little demand for
low-wing rentals, so I will stick with my C-172.  If a local FBO
could promise at least 40 hours a month for a 140, then i would
probably buy one, put it on leaseback, and enjoy the alternative
for my own use!

Hope someone else chimes in with some significant benefits, one vs
the other.  I think they are pretty much equal, but having learned
in a cessna, my default vote is the 172.

Cheers, and good luck whichever way you go!!!

Newsgroups: rec.aviation.owning
From: mgc@unislc.uucp (Marc Christensen)
Subject: Re: 80 Octane engines on 100LL
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Organization: Unisys Corporation SLC
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 20:41:04 GMT

Mark Allen Conover (conover@nuchat.sccsi.com) wrote:
: I am beginning to do the ground work for the eventual purchase of an
: airplane.  Most of the aircraft in my price range were manufactured in the
: 1960's and early 1970's, when 80 octane fuel was (apparently) the norm.
: 
: My question:  How well do these older planes' engines operate with 100 octane
:               fuel?  I have heard of "lead fouling".  How serious is this?
: 
I flew one 152 rental that had a REAL problem with lead foulding It happend 
every couple of hours.

In about 180 hours on my 150  I have not had a fouled plug yet. 

If your engine use 80 octane you can probably find get an STC.
auto fuel STC's are cheap and Auto fuel can be half the cost of 100ll. 

Auto Fuel flames will be ignored.

Marc Christensen
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.owning
From: patter@dasher.cc.bellcore.com (patterson,george r)
Subject: Re: Cherokee 140 vs. C-172
Organization: Bellcore, Livingston, NJ
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 92 19:13:04 GMT

In article <1992Nov23.155711.16741@nuchat.sccsi.com> conover@nuchat.sccsi.com (Mark Allen Conover) writes:
>May I have some opinions on the following thought process?

How 'bout some facts instead.

>If I am willing to settle for a three-person aircraft, why not purchase
>a less expensive PA28-140? 

Comparing the C172 with the PA-28 150hp versions;

                Cessna                            Piper
                ------                            -----
Max              139mph                            same
Cruise           131                               130
Stall             49                                53
Fuel              42 gal                            36 gal
Ceiling       13,100'                           14,300'
ROC              645fpm                            660
TO over 50'    1,525'                            1,750'
Ground run       865'                              800'
Land over 50'  1,250'                            1,890'
Ground roll      520'                              535'
Gross          2,300 lb                          2,150
Empty          1,265 lb.                         1,205
TBO            2,000 hours                       1,200 w/o mods 2,000 with

Both have versions of the Lycoming O-320. As you can see, the 172 can carry
more and get in and out of shorter fields. According to the NTSB, the 172
has the best safety record in its class and the Piper has one of the worst.

All data taken from "The Illustrated Buyer's Guide to Used Airplanes". This
book obtained these figures from the manufacturers.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
                    |
George Patterson -  | When you're working on a project and drop
                    | something, it will never reach the ground.
                    |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.owning
From: patter@dasher.cc.bellcore.com (patterson,george r)
Subject: Re: Cherokee 140 vs. C-172
Organization: Bellcore, Livingston, NJ
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 92 23:29:05 GMT

In article <1992Nov23.204111.25982@news.nd.edu> ulick@bernini.helios.nd.edu (Ulick Stafford) writes:

>............  As my first instructor said when I decided to switch from a 
>152 to a 140, 'did you ever see a high wing fighter?'

He obviously never heard of the Fokker D-8. Nick-named the "flying razor",
it was the second best fighter of WWI. There were other high and parasol
wing fighters.

Fighters are designed to provide the best visibility of items which may
be dangerous. Since these tend to be other aircraft attacking from above
and behind, a low wing gives you this.

The items most dangerous to me in flight tend to be below and in front.
The high wing design is better for seeing these in time.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
                    | The gum-chewing girl and the cud-chewing cow
                    | are very alike, and yet different somehow
George Patterson -  | And after much study I think I know now.
                    | It's the clear, thoughtful look
                    |                        on the face of the cow.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.owning