From: rlk@underprize.think.com (Robert Krawitz)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Why I became an Athiest (was: frustrations with christianity)
Date: 18 Dec 92 18:26:18
Organization: Thinking Machines Corporation, Cambridge Mass., USA
	<1992Dec17.191942.12699@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca>
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	<1992Dec18.162650.20051@umbc3.umbc.edu>
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In-reply-to: shimoff@umbc4.umbc.edu's message of Fri, 18 Dec 1992 16:26:50 GMT

BTW, very interesting and well written response.

Just a couple of definitions here (as I will use the terms):

"Strong atheism" is the belief that god does not exist (an affirmative
statement).

"Weak atheism" is the lack of any belief that god does exist (no
statement whatsoever regarding the existence of god).

"Agnosticism" is the belief that it's impossible to know one way or the
other (an affirmative statement).

Weak atheism and agnosticism are often confused, but they're quite
different.  It's possible to believe that god exists while at the same
time claiming that it must be taken on faith, and is unknowable (i. e.
agnosticism), but a belief that god exists is not compatible with either
strong or weak atheism.  When I use "atheism" without a qualifier, I'm
referring to weak atheism.

In article <1992Dec18.162650.20	051@umbc3.umbc.edu> shimoff@umbc4.umbc.edu (Eliot Shimoff) writes:

   Maddi's initial posting suggested that the reason she adopted atheism
   was that she found her family's practice of Judaism unsatisfactory.

This doesn't strike me as too different from one who becomes religious
because she feels that there "has to be something out there".

   Maddi's statement was, however, less compelling.  She did not (so
   far as I can tell) study Judaism intensely.  Instead, she adopted
   atheism based primarily on very limited exposure to serious Judaism.
   Using that as a rationale for atheism does a disservice to atheism
   as well as to Judaism. 

Perhaps.  In my case, I simply found religious observance unappealing,
then as I thought about it more I decided that there was less and less
reason to believe in a god.  And religious practice without belief
struck me as pointless.

That's not so for everyone -- my immediate family is fairly to very
observant, and one very interesting fellow that I had the pleasure to
meet was an Orthodox rabbi (at the time), yet was also a skeptic.  So
it's quite possible to start from very similar initial information and
come to entirely different conclusions.  Many of the regulars on
alt.atheism do come from religious backgrounds (and very few are of
Jewish background -- as near as I can tell, Maddi and I are the only
"regulars" on that newsgroup who are), and most of them lost their
belief only after a lot of consideration.  Indeed, many of them can
quote the bible as well as the regular evangelical invaders (which we've
recently had the distinct displeasure of meeting here).

   Imagine what convinced atheists would say if I entered alt.atheism
   with some weak arguments against it based on what had happened to
   me when I was 6 or 10 or 15 years old; they would -- with justification --
   tell me to go back and study atheism first.  (Read the alt.atheism
   FAQ; that is exactly what they assert.)

Quite true, and personally I was surprised to see Maddi's original post
here.  I didn't think it was either necessary or a terribly good idea,
for exactly that reason.  However, I did find the posting interesting,
and I think that the reasons she gave were solid ones.  No one can study
everything in depth; one has to form impressions based on limited data,
and the data that Maddi gathered seem sufficient for someone with a
certain world view to give up religion (or not to assume it in the first
place).  Then again, others have no problem with the things that Maddi
(or I) do have problems with.

   Thus, Maddi, if you find atheism appealing, I won't argue with you.
   But attributing your atheism to Judaism's weaknesses is unfair to
   Judaism (given your limited exposure to serious Jewish practice)
   and demeans atheism (since it implies you adopted it out of ignorance
   about Judaism).

Well, atheism (the weak variety) does not have an affirmative doctrine
at all that can be demeaned (Strong atheism does, and many of the
arguments used to support it are every bit as silly as the sillier
arguments used to support religion).

But if you start out with an assumption (belief, if you will) that
individuals are equal, and that distinction should not be made between
the sexes, and that men and women should not be separated during normal
day to day activity, it's very easy, and not at all dishonest or
weak-minded, to come to the conclusion that Judaism makes serious
mistakes.  Again, that's based on one's world view.  Sure, it's starting
with unprovable assumptions, but that's for each individual to make.

   (Incidentally, part of the problem may be that the set of people
   who truly understand both atheism and Judaism is VERY VERY small;
   furthermore, anyone who claims to know both and adopt one will be
   rejected by the other.  

More like "anyone who claims to know both and adopt one will reject the
other".  For entirely different reasons (because Judaism considers
itself to pass by blood, as opposed to atheism which simply has no code
by which to accept or reject anybody), neither will "reject" someone.

Incidentally, I originally subscribed to s.c.j. because there were
people on alt.atheism who had IMHO very serious misunderstandings about
Judaism as it's practiced (giving as an example the commandment to
destroy Amalek which is considered to have been fulfilled, and the death
penalties prescribed while ignoring Shammai's (?) comment about how a
sanhedrin which executes one person in 70 years being a bloody one).
But hey, I found enough interesting stuff here...
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