From: mjharris@nyx.cs.du.edu (Mike Harris)
Subject: Re: good vodka in finland, but bad karma
Organization: University of Denver, Dept. of Math & Comp. Sci.
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 93 19:24:46 GMT

cblanc@pomona.claremont.edu (Malevolessence) writes:


[B>	I see now your agenda (remember what I said about that?).  Your
>problem is, then, the Finnish press, and not the truth about alcohol.  For one
>thing, there is a genetic propensity toward alcoholism clearly measured by
>either scientific survey (I'm sure there is some literature on this somewhere,
>as I've read some of it, but never thought I'd encounter belligerent users bent
>on denial, so threw it out) or commonsense observation -- the children of
>alcoholics follow their parents habit, even when removed from the home
>environment.  Second, there is a perceivable need in the alcoholic, much like
>the addiction of the caffeine user -- headaches, crankiness, etc. that comes
>only from being an alcoholic.  Here is where someone's point comes into play: 
>what is our definition of a disease?  In this case, mine is that it is a
>biological, genetically-transmitable propensity toward alcoholism that will
>flower into the full-blown condition if given the proper chance -- that is, if
>again.  These facts are verifiable with either a little observation,
>interviewing at a treatment center, or checking in a library.  Alcohol, like
>any drug, is a tool -- and there are some who should not touch it for the
>medical reasons described above.  There are others, the psychological addicts,

This is getting funnier all the time. Such dogma. The fact is that there
is some evidence towards a genetic component to alcoholism is interesting
but certainly does not constitute proof of any kind. Particularly since
counter examples abound. You will find wide disagreement among doctors and
therapists on this subject. Alcohol has been classified as a disease
because it makes it more treatable. An approach that would seem to help
other drug abusers as well but is not nearly as much fun as the WoSD. Do
you know of another disease that requires you to feed it all the time if
you want to hang on to it?

>mentioned above, you cannot "cure" alcoholism -- you can regulate the behavior. 
>Second, as mentioned in past messages, a  "positive experience" isn't going to
>change an alcoholic's need for his substance.  Third, most of the alcohol
>abusers who aren't alcoholics are of the addictive personality type, which
>would lead them to become MDMA abusers, despite the high tolerance initiated
>too; I worked for one.  I am sorry that you do not understand alcohol very
>well, but it places you in good company in this sub, where few people seem to. 
>I am sorry addiction, alcoholism, and the nature of regulating oneself are
>misunderstood.  But I know that I am correct, and before you spew off another
>abusive message about my assertions to this end, save it:  my experience has
>depth (in this area) and would make sense if you understood alcohol better.  As
>for your mission to rewrite science & medicine so your precious drugs (well,
>mine, too) countrymen do not rage on drugs too much, I wish you luck, but
>you're bashing away in the wrong area without any effective weapons.

>Bucko Gizm

You should be a health care professional. Your wisdom is desparately
needed there. Of course so much certitude could be useful in many other
professions too. Like you could have been one of Reagan or Bush's
advisors or better yet one of their supreme court apointees Too bad.

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