From: gertler@cyclone.sbi.com (Don Gertler)
Subject: Re: Torah is the center of every Jew? (was Orthadox Judaism and women)
Originator: scj@israel.nysernet.org
Reply-To: <gertler@cyclone.sbi.com (Don Gertler)>
Organization: Nysernet
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 23:02:31 GMT

faigin@aero.org (Daniel P. Faigin) writes:
> khaikin@cis.ohio-state.edu (dmitry khaikin) said:
 
> According to my wife, who had Orthodox teachers, a female raised in an
> Orthodox home has no opportunity to study Torah, because no male teacher will
> teach her Torah. My wife should know -- she was thrown out of 3 Torah classes
> at Hebrew High School just because she was female!

First, I must say that your wife doesn't know what she's talking
about.  [I never did like that locution.  I always thought it should
be "she doesn't know about what she's talking about."  But anyway ...]
She has made quite a foolish generalization, possibly based on her
own bias or, perhaps, on anecdotal (at best) evidence.  To say that
a female raised in an O home has no opportunity to study Torah is
ridiculous.  Perhaps your wife had none in her home, and perhaps that
can explain a distaste she may have for O.  Most of the O women I know
could run circles around my knowledge of the Torah.

No male teacher will teach her Torah?!  Is she serious?  I suggest
you probe her statements as profoundly as you do others exressed on
the net.  The fact that your wife was thrown out of class appears
to me to be a rather disingenuous indictment of all of Orthodox Jewry.

> Actually, my wife says, since most Orthodox women are running the household,
> raising the kids, and running the business, while their husbands sit on their
> rear ends all day (her words) learning Torah, Orthodox women have no time,
> strength, or energy to study Torah even if they had the opportunity, which
> they don't.

Perhaps her father was like this.  I, for one, am not.  She had a bad
experience.  I was mugged by a <supply your favorite ethnic group>
man.  All <same ethnic group> men are muggers.  Sound familiar?

And besides, where does your wife suggest I sit, if not on my rear
end?  Or shouldn't I ask, since I'm on of those Orthodox males?
Spit, spit, cough, cough.

> (Daniel again). Dmitry, you don't know what sexism is, and how it differs from
> sexual harrassment. Inappropriate comments are not sexism -- they're sexual
> harrassment. Sexism is akin to racism -- remember the Jim Crow laws in the
> south. Sexism is treating women differently solely because of their sex.
> Making them sit in a separate area. Giving them different responsibilities.
> Denying them certain opportunties available to men (the rabbinate, being a
> witness, initiating a get, saying wedding vows, etc.). That's sexism.
> Orthodoxy is sexist by definition.

Fair enough.  It does distinguish between the sexes.  If that is
sexism, then O fits.  Realize, of course, that it is equally sexist
in both directions, depending on your point of view.  For instance,
I am in violation if I ignore a rule when a woman can get off scot-
free for ignoring the same rule.  If this were a court of law, who
would be complaining?

As another example, a female child of a Kohen would have no halakhic
barriers to becoming a physician.  Her brother most certainly would.

Does Reform discourage or in any way regard homosexuality as
anything less than the ideal family structure?  If so, isn't that
discrimination?  After all, isn't that saying that the "better"
spouse for a male is a female, and vice versa?  Does R perform
homosexual "marriages"?  Shouldn't the ideal we strive for be
bisexuality?

> > In fact, I am trying to prove that Reformism and Conservatism
> > leads to dropping out and other people argue with me on this issue.
> 
> They argue with you because you are wrong. Statistics have shown in the US
> that Reform and Conservative are *growing* in comparison with Orthodoxy,
> although Judaism as a whole is shrinking.

Could you please provide the statistics on this?  I am interested.

Thanks.

-Don Gertler
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.african.american