HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: 5gz8wakefiel@vmsf.csd.mu.edu
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Bored in Eternity...
Date: 16 Nov 92 03:26:29 GMT
Reply-To: 5gz8wakefiel@vmsf.csd.mu.edu
Organization: Marquette University - Computer Services

In article <Nov.13.02.17.43.1992.19268@geneva.rutgers.edu>, dwjurkat@mailbox.syr.edu (Jurkat) writes:
>Just exactly what do you do when you're in heaven?  Eternity is rather long. 


One of the only hints in the Bible is found in Revelation 22:3: "and the saints
of God shall serve him."  Add this to I Corinthians 6:3, and use your imagina-
tion.  If you need a jump start, see Wilbur Smith's "The Biblical Doctrine of
Heaven."  He was a conservative Presbyterian at Fuller Seminary, and had the
most wonderful imagination... He imagines us, each of us, as fully creative and
artistic...  I hope so.
From: mpaul@unlinfo.unl.edu (marxhausen paul)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: exorcism
Date: 17 Nov 92 08:13:41 GMT
Organization: University of Nebraska--Lincoln

norris@athena.mit.edu (Richard A Chonak) writes:

>In article <Nov.13.02.17.48.1992.19278@geneva.rutgers.edu>, g91a2724@giraffe.ru.ac.za (MR GJ ANDREWS) writes:
>|> Need info on exorcism - would appreciate anything. E-mail or posted here.

>Ex-Jesuit Malachi Martin wrote a book about it some years back, called 
>"Hostage to the Devil".

If I remember right, this book was discredited as being a fabrication a while
back - hadn't realized this but passing mention of this was made in Corner-
stone's write-up of Mike Warnke - I believe they said the author admitted it
was fraudulent, I'm not sure.  Anyway, be careful.

--
paul marxhausen .... ....... ............. ............ ............ .......... 
 .. . .  . . . university of nebraska - lincoln .  . . .. . .  .. . . . . . . .
 .     .    .  .   .     .   .  .    .   .  .   .    .   .  grace .   .    .  . 
   .         .       .      .        .        .      .        .   happens .
From: jkim@ecs.umass.edu
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: bible games needed
Date: 16 Nov 92 02:48:00 GMT

Hi there
I need bible games for ms windows or ms-dos.
I only have 3 or 4 games from shareware.
Please tell me where to buy or download them?
Thanks
        JKIM@ECS.UMASS.EDU
From: mmrwlm@sn535.uca (Wanda L McCrae)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: There is no god, Modified by author
Date: 22 Nov 92 23:03:22 GMT
Reply-To: mmrwlm@sn535.uca
Organization: General Electric

In article 7770@athos.rutgers.edu, msh9848@hertz.njit.edu (-Unknown-) writes:
+What I am trying to find out is why christians chose christianity for their
+view of the universe as opposed to Judaism or Wicca, etc. 

That one is simple for me to answer.

1. It's all I was taught while I was growing up.
2. I've tried living by the principles, and it has undoubtably
   worked for me!

Wanda McCrae
---
______________________________________________________________________
Wanda L. McCrae            | "Free your mind and the rest will follow.
mmrwlm@sn370.utica.ge.com  |  Be color-blind.  Don't be so shallow!"
                                 - En Vogue
From: vxv4@po.cwru.edu (Virgilio Velasco)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Need Christian Jokes...
Date: 16 Nov 92 03:31:15 GMT
Reply-To: vxv4@po.cwru.edu (Virgilio Velasco)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)


	Well, I'm sure that a lot of you know this one, but here
goes anyway.

	Have you heard about the dyslexic, insomniac agnostic?  He
stays awake night after night wondering if there really is a dog.

-- 
    Virgilio "Dean" Velasco Jr., CWRU grad student & roboticist wannabee

   "Bullwinkle, that man's intimidating a referee!"    |    My boss is a 
   "Not very well.  He doesn't look like one at all."  |  Jewish carpenter.
From: alvin@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (Kenneth Alvin)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: There is no god
Date: 19 Nov 92 06:45:22 GMT
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder

In article <Nov.18.01.23.05.1992.6880@klinzhai.rutgers.edu> msh9848@hertz.njit.edu (-Unknown-) writes:
>This is a challenge to Xtians out here. Convince me to believe in Xtianity 
>without quoting the bible. If you prefer , do it by email. 
>
>I do not believe that "god" gave man the bible nor do I believe in
>god, heaven or hell. Also I can not be convinced using hell fire and
>brimstone fear tactics.
>
>Matt Harelick

My response is more of a comment rather than an argument for or against.

First of all, I think we should make a distinction between convincing
someone to believe in Christianity and providing a proof of the
existence of a god.  I am not up on the discussions in s.r.c. with
respect to existence proofs, so if the following is inappropriate, feel
free to use this just as email input.  My experience with proofs is that 
they are always inconclusive, partly because of a lack of a definable 
entity, and partly because of a lack of consensus on how nature operates
and the limits of our knowledge about physical (i.e. naturalistic laws).  

IMHO, theists can no more conclusively prove that a god exists than 
atheists can prove it does not.  The supernatural aspects of the entity
make anything possible, and yet nothing verifiable in a laboratory.  And,
if in fact existance of a god/creator could be logically and scientifically
proved, it would say nothing about the truth of any particular religious
tenets.  Thus, the question of existence of a god with particular
attributes beyond creator always appears to reduce to a question
of faith.  This seems to me to be fairly consistent with the central 
themes of faith in Christianity.

As far as convincing someone to believe in Christianity without quoting 
the Bible; this seems a bit ridiculous since the Bible provides much of 
the substance of Christianity.  Skeptics may examine historical records
of biblical times and this may make them more or less accepting of the
possible truth of Christianity, but ultimately it is the message the
Bible transmits personally to each individual that is key to their
acceptance of Christian faith.  

Obviously, this is my $0.02 and a rather liberal $0.02 at that.  It does
lead me to the opinion that both non-Christians and Christians ought to
be very tolerant of differences each others conclusions on religion, as
these conclusions lead from a personal rather than objective perspective.

-Ken


-- 
comments, criticism welcome...
-Ken
alvin@ucsu.colorado.edu
From: MVS104@psuvm.psu.edu
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: There is no god
Date: 22 Nov 92 23:31:16 GMT
Organization: Penn State University

In article <Nov.20.00.14.03.1992.7741@athos.rutgers.edu>, REXLEX@linac.fnal.gov
says:
>
>How about doing it another way.  Lets say there is no God!  I mean it.
[...]
>Everything is gratuitous, contingent.  Nothing has meaning, no statement has
>validity. In truth, there is only despair, anxiety and ennui! You should see

Where did you hear this? From an atheist, perhaps, or are you merely
assuming that life has no meaning for non-believers? I can't speak for
all of us, but as for myself, life has more meaning for me without
belief in a god. Your religion's aim seems to be to deny this life in
favor of an eternal afterlife. Since I haven't found any proof of an
afterlife, this life has much more meaning, as I realize that it's all
I have...You may think that I experience nothing but despair without
a god to prop me up, but you are wrong.

>However, there seems to be a growing number of people that feel that the
>results are not so assured, as the closed nature of the universe is perceived
>to be confining, the notion of death as extinction, and no basis for hope
>other than alienation from the universe.

So some people don't like the idea of death being the end. It just shows
their ego. Some people think they should live forever. Just because they
don't like what reality they're faced with doesn't mean anything happens.

>If God is dead, then everything he stands for is dead.  Men just do not know
>what "caused" them or their decisions.  Man is a conscious machine without the
>ability to effect his own destiny or do anything significant.  Therefore, man
>(as a valuable ) is dead.  Instead of have the breath of God, you have

By the way...does every christian take Nietzche literally when he says
"god is dead"? All that's died to me is my belief in god...anyway, what
do you mean by "effect his own destiny" or "do anything significant"?
I should think I'm affecting my destiny with everything I do, and as for
doing anything significant, well, I'm just not sure what you mean.

>If you choose not to believe in God (What do you want us to do, put Him in a
>bottle like some firefly?), then if you don't cop out, you have to disregard

Have I ever said bottle god? No. I have asked for proof, whether it be
from you, or from god directly. You act as if proof can't be found, and
in fact you frown on the notion. Why is that?

>all the freedom that Form gives you.  Wasn't it Nietzsche that said, that when
>God is dead, the only sanity was insanity.  I say this much for him, he was
>true enough to himself that he lived, or rather died, the reality of his
>conclusions.  Are you?

I haven't found belief in god to be much like "freedom" at all...and
as for Nietzche, if you want to insult his memory out of spite, then
so be it. Anyone who looks into his life in the slightest can discover
the true cause of his insanity, that being disease. What do you want,
to invalidate his conclusions because he went insane? I could say much
the same about Jesus...
From: jhpb@sarto.budd-lake.nj.us (Joseph H. Buehler)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Anglican and Roman Catholic
Date: 20 Nov 92 05:13:33 GMT
Organization: none

In article <Nov.18.04.22.00.1992.2509@athos.rutgers.edu> U94_DLAVDAS@vaxc.stevens-tech.edu (D E A N) writes:

   I have a friend who told me that he knows a Roman Catholic priest
   who was an Anglican priest and upon converting to Catholicism he
   automatically became a RC priest.  I find that hard to believe, but
   then again I am neither RC nor Anglican.  Can anybody explain if
   this is true or false?

The moderator was correct; he had to be ordained by a Catholic bishop
if he is now a Catholic priest.  The Catholic Church does not
recognize Anglican Holy Orders.
From: news@cbnewsk.att.com
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Why is not everyone like Jesus? (was: Re: Free Will and Evil)
Date: 17 Nov 92 08:18:10 GMT
Organization: AT&T Bell Labs

In article <Nov.6.03.20.09.1992.5394@geneva.rutgers.edu> armstrng@cs.dal.ca (Stan Armstrong) writes:
>
>If God can make Jesus a real human being with real free will to really
>love Him, he can make soemone free who will never sin. Why didn't he
>make every human being that way? Jesus is God, you say. There is an
>old theological maxim that says you must not confuse the divine and
>human attributes of Jesus. If Jesus was both free and good because he
>was God, his life would have availed us nothing. Besides why could God
>not similarly invest himself in every human being? You say there can
>only be one God-Man. Why?

God made all of us perfect.  Perfect includes a free will.  Jesus
accepted God's love as a gift, and as a result, he became a vessel
through which God communicates with us.  True, if Jesus' nature was
such that he was able to be both free and good only because he was 
God, then his life, example, would mean nothing.  Jesus was a man
and when he was tempted, he did not give the temptations a chance.
He was tempted physically (bread), with power, with avoidance of
responsibility, and with pride.  All the main areas of temptation 
where all are tempted.  He dealt with the temptation by chasing the
evil thoughts out of his mind.  He was not especially strong-willed.
He just had the right strategy.

Consider a thought to be a baby.  An evil thought is a baby lion cub.
No teeth, small, like a kitten, no claws.  Sure you can toss it around,
let it try to bite you, wrestle around with it, play with it, consider
yourself much stronger.  Eventually the cub grows claws and teeth,
eventually, the lion has control of you.  If you see any lion cubs
coming your way, chase it away, don't even consider it, once you do,
you allow yourself to become vulnerable.  For all our failings, we can
always look back to the point where we first considered ourselves
strong enough to handle something.  

You have it backwards, Jesus totally invested himself in God.  He even
died for God.  How many are willing to invest that much?  Freedom is a
gift.  How often is the gift of freedom ignored, so that we become slaves
to our vices, slaves to our lies, slaves to our possesions?  We no longer
own ourselves but are owned.  Such theological questions around paradoxes,
phrased as contradictions can't be proven.  Such pursuits, may lead a once
faithful person away from faith.  2Peter3:16 warns against such lofty
pursuits as trying to understand such difficult matters, that it will 
lead to their own destruction.

Joe Moore
From: massengale_m@cubldr.colorado.edu
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: New Age & "bizarre practices"
Date: 19 Nov 92 06:55:59 GMT
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder

I have to agree with clh that the practices Mr. Farrell describes were
not implicit in his post about the New Age religions.  These "bizarre
practices" can be addressed by laws preventing cruelty to animals, etc.
Freedom of religion does not permit sacrificing virgins or drowning
supposed witches.  It does permit worship of whatever deity one chooses,
provided such worship does not interfere with other laws.  A good example
(a controversial one, though) is the Supreme Court ruling that disallowed
Native Americans the ritual use of peyote.

It is only my opinion, I freely admit here, that the evidence of "Satanism"
in everything from Halloween to THE WIZARD OF OZ is sheer hysteria.  The
New Age may be silly; I don't think it's subversive.


Melanie

[Is subversive really the word you mean?  The New Age certainly seeks
to subvert values that some of our readers consider important.  As
some of our readers would like to subvert many of the values of our
general culture.  --clh]
From: mpaul@unlinfo.unl.edu (marxhausen paul)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: NIV or NASB in soft copy?
Date: 15 Nov 92 23:39:06 GMT
Organization: University of Nebraska--Lincoln

jenk@microsoft.com (Jen Kilmer) writes:

>Anyone know where one could find NIV or NASB in ascii text?

Informational note on NIV-in-computer-format: Zondervan publishing has
the sole right to distribution of the NIV in computer format.  I found
this out when someone provided me with the NIV in ASCII over the network
a while back and I got curious about the legality.  I contacted the Ameri-
can Bible Society (who holds the NIV copyright), they directed me to
Zondervan.  Zondervan allowed me to keep my copy provided I update the
copyright notice, but basically they want to keep a handle on any comp-
uter distribution to insure the integrity of the text, and also because,
hey, they have the legal right.  They nicely declined to give their 
blessing to general Internet distribution.  This was as of about a year
ago, maybe somebody else knows differently now.

--
paul marxhausen .... ....... ............. ............ ............ .......... 
 .. . .  . . . university of nebraska - lincoln .  . . .. . .  .. . . . . . . .
 .     .    .  .   .     .   .  .    .   .  .   .    .   .  grace .   .    .  . 
   .         .       .      .        .        .      .        .   happens .     

[I believe it is not the American Bible Society, but the New York
International Bible Society.  The ABS holds copyright on the TEV.
--clh]
From: barnhart@ddsw1.mcs.com (Mr. Aaron Barnhart)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Power
Date: 16 Nov 92 03:23:05 GMT
Organization: Evanston, Illinois, U.S.A.

:[As far as I can see (and I looked back at the original posting),
:he was not suggesting that only Christians be allowed to hold
:office, but simply that there are some good things that Christians
:who do hold office could do.  Even that was qualified somewhat.
:
:While there may be some people who want a complete takeover
:by the religious right, a lot of the discussion here should not
:be taken that way.  Rather, many of us are trying to decide what
:the limits should be.  I think one can believe things have gone
:too far in the other direction, and that something should change,
:without wanting to establish a right-wing Christian dictatorship.
:
:--clh]


I appreciate the summary.  However, we still have a valid model
of "Christian rule" in the non-right-wing, non-dictatorial reign
of Oliver Cromwell and the Puritan experiment in the mid 17th
century.  As the Oxford Dictionary of the Church puts it,

	"[Cromwell] believed he was the instrument of a Divine
	Providence: 'I have not sought these things; truly I have
	been called unto them by the Lord.' [...] At times ruthless
	and others magnanimous, he was undoubtedly the genius of
	the Commonwealth."

Among his inventions was the Parliament of Saints, 140 Puritans who
briefly ruled England.  At any rate, the "Puritan revolution" that
had made Cromwell's ascent possible was by 1660, two years after his
death, "spent ... It had no policy; beyond a desire to perpetuate
its own power, it had no plans" (Gerald Cragg, vol. 4 of the Penguin
history of the Church).

That's my problem with the personalities I saw dominating the
convention last July.  Of course I am appalled at certain aspects
of the r. right, but more than that Buchanan, Robertson, and Helms
simply bring to the table such a piddling stack of initiatives
for the future.  This they share with Bush, and so rightly share in
his political exhaustion.

Beyond that, it's my educated guess that power will corrupt once 
corruption appears to be about the only useful thing one can do
with it.

Aaron
From: altheimm@nextnet.ccs.csus.edu (Murray Altheim)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Bible References
Date: 22 Nov 92 23:24:34 GMT
Organization: California State University Sacramento

In article <Nov.20.00.42.12.1992.11123@athos.rutgers.edu>
   nelson@pdn.paradyne.com (Bill Nelson) writes:
>I am looking for a really, really, really, (you get the point) good book that 
>explains how the Bible was created and why were particular books chosen
>and others
>left out (i.e. the books of the Apocrophya, etal).
>
>I have been to my local Christian book store and have found several books but 
>would like the "wisdom of the net".
 
I would suggest avoiding many Christian bookstores for information on the
books left out of their bible, unless you care not for the objectivity of
your sources. Maybe you don't. And this is not to say that all Christian
bookstores are the same.

>I have also found reference to some historical writings and "Lost Books of the 
>Bible" such as: "The Books of Eden", "The Apocrophya", "The Writings of
>Josephus"
>and an obscure reference to "The Book of Jashar" (which is referred to in the
>Bible as "is it not written in...").  I know that some of these may be really
>"neat" references to read (without putting my faith in them like the
>Bible), but
>how can one be sure of their authenticity?

A very scholarly edition of the Pseudepigrapha (aside from the Oxford 1913
edition by R.H. Charles) is the edition just published by Charlesworth. I
forget his first name.) This is a very scholarly edition, and was compiled
by a broad spectrum of Christian, Jewish and Academic cleric and lay
scholars. For the apocrypha, any Catholic Bible contains the "standard" 
apocryphal texts. There is another book called "The Lost Books of the Bible"
which contains a number of pseudepigraphic and apocalyptic texts. Many of
these texts were excluded for specific reasons, but in many cases they are
great historical value. I suppose it depends on your beliefs and approach
to some extent.

You may also look into a well-written new book from Robin Lane Fox, called
"The Unauthorized Version", which deals with this subject, and from a more
technical avenue, look into James Sanders from Claremont. It is his 
specialty.

As to authenticity, in my mind, the canonical decisions of the Catholic
Church are not any great measure of a manuscript's authenticity, and were
more a function of political and ecumenical factors. But then again, I 
don't assume to be hold a mainstream view.

I hope these references are helpful.

>My love to all of you in Christ Jesus, Amen.
>
>| Bill Nelson    | This space intended  | Opinions expressed do not

Blessings,

Murray

-- 
Murray M. Altheim      "Ils ont l'orteil de Bouc, & d'un Chevreil l'oreille,
Instructional Consultant    La corne d'un Chamois, & la face vermeille
CSU, Sacramento          Comme un rouge Croissant: & dancent toute nuict
altheimm@csus.edu       Dedans un carrefour, ou pres d'une eau qui bruict."
From: hillig@g2syd.genasys.com.au (Hilli Gibson)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: (long) Re: suicide- is it a sin in God's eyes.
Date: 20 Nov 92 06:18:38 GMT
Organization: Genasys II, Sydney, Australia

In article <Nov.18.04.16.32.1992.2344@athos.rutgers.edu> Thomas.Sullivan@cs.cmu.edu writes:
>a sin" or "suicide is throwing God's most precious gift back into his face".
>People don't consider suicide unless they are really at an extremely low 
>point in their lives.  I think God knows more about what is going on in 
>these people's lives than we humans on the outside of their minds looking
>in.  We really shouldn't be judging their actions, especially if we consider

I think you should be very careful what you said.
Do you imply that Judas Iscariot would be forgiven ?
I doubt it much about him.
Your statement may encourage other people to do that foolish thing.
One of my good friend jumped from 21st FLoor in Canada four years ago.
This was very shocking and sad thing to do as he spent most of his last
week time with me indicating nothing about it.

I had tried to help him with his problems nevertheless  I failed. 
I never thought he could have done this stupid thing for his life.

I just prayed that God had mercy with Him.

-- 
Hilli Gibson  |  Genasys II Pty Ltd
              |  13th Level, 33 Berry St, North Sydney, NSW, Australia
              |  Phone:    +61-2-954-0022 (-9930 FAX)
              |  Internet: hillig@g2syd.genasys.com.au
From: meyr@ursa.calvin.edu (Bob Meyering)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Nudity - Why be ashamed?
Date: 17 Nov 92 08:00:23 GMT
Organization: Calvin College

mmrwlm@sn370.utica.ge.com (Wanda L McCrae) writes:

>In article 16933@geneva.rutgers.edu, phoenix@cwis.unomaha.edu (Shannon Chris Saltzman) writes:
>~Pardon me but isnt the body now sinful because of the sin associated
>~with it.  It says the flesh is sinful because it does not and cannot
>~know God as our souls do.  Perhaps thats the whole nudity thing.  Not
>~an answer just a suggestion.

Please check out a good Bible dictioniary or commentary on Paul's use
of the word flesh.  It doesn't necessarily refer to our physical
bodies.  It refers to living under the principle of this world,
without the gospel, without the forgiveness of sins.  And in contrast,
to live by the Spirit doesn't mean we turn our backs on attention to
our physical bodies.  

Check the word out somewhere, and remember, we believe in the
resurrection of the body, not just some continuation of something
called a soul.  We have too much of a Greek idea of soul as distinct
from body.  For the Hebrews, soul was the animating force or principle
of life. The whole person is body/soul.  Separate those, you don't
have a whole person.  Christ makes us whole.  New body, new earth, new
heaven, new everything.

Unless we are given life by the Spirit, neither our bodies nor our
souls know God.  And when we receive the gift of faith we know God as
much with our bodies as with our souls.  


--
                     ***  Meyr@Calvin.Edu  ***
Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know. --Michel De
Montaigne