From: chrstie@ccu.umanitoba.ca (William John M. Christie)
Subject: Re: Don't tell the Anti-Hunters
Organization: University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Canada
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1992 15:01:23 GMT

In <Bw5spw.33G@wpg.com> russ@wpg.com (Russell Lawrence) writes:


>William Christie writes: 
>wc> Show me how God disproves of the way humans treat animals.

>Russell Lawrence writes:
>rl> Show me that your "god" really and truly disapproved of the 
>rl> mistreatment of hundreds of thousands of witches, heretics, and 
>rl> unbelievers during the late middle ages.  After all, your "god" 
>rl> did say: "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live".  

>In article <1992Oct15.040002.27110@ccu.umanitoba.ca>, William Christie:
>wc> You have been told the context and definitions of the above 
>wc> statement.  It is then irrelavent to the question you pose above.  

>No, it's not irrelevant at all.  Your current opinions, after 
>all, are only your current opinions and are not necessarily 
>reflective of a genuine divine will.  In medieval times, 
>literally hundreds of prominent christian theologians read the 
>same bible that you've read and concluded that witch-killing was 
>not only acceptable in the eyes of "god", but desirable.  

Your current opinions are not necessarily reflective of an open mind when
you refuse to answer questions I have asked of you (in different posts as
well as this one) and ignore what you have already been informed of.
Yes it is irrelevant.  If you remember the statement was used in the Old
Testament and is not applicable as a commandment for Christians.  I showed
you in my previous post what they should have been practicing.  I would
like to point out that probably (as I can see) that statement was used as
an excuse to remove people that the Church considered political enemies. 
Read the CHURCH and not God.  Most of the Templars were convicted of
witchery by the Church in France, the result that the Templar's lands,
goods (and lives) were forcibly removed from them.  Against Christ's
teachings, a few of which I have outlined in other posts that you have
replied to, am I assuming too much that you read them?

>Actually, there's no need to turn back the clock that far to find 
>abundant evidence of the misuse of divine credentials in matters 
>involving rights.  Roughly half of the pro-slavery books 
>published prior to the american Civil War were written by 
>clergymen who claimed to speak for "god".  

Again, just because someone does something in so-and-so's name does not
mean that so-and-so agrees with them or even condones their act.  What did
these clergymen use as Biblical proof that slavery was condoned by God?

>Isn't it possible...  just possible, in another hundred years  
>from now, that your great-grandchildren will be wondering how/why  
>so many christians in our day and age could turn their backs on 
>the suffering of non-human animals, while pretending to have 
>God's approval?  

And isn't it possible, just possible, that whatever great-grandchildren I
have will lament the fact that someone one hundred years ago
arbitrarily decided for them that hunting was bad because that someone
didn't like it, and so because of laws made since are not able to enjoy
hunting?

>wc> To answer your question God does disprove of the abuse of using 
>wc> God's name to commit acts God is opposed to.  You are blaming the 
>wc> principle (in this case Christian faith) for the acts it's 
>wc> adherents have done...  

>If your "god" ordered you to kill me, and you complied, would it 
>be most appropriate for my relatives and friends to place the
>responsibility on you?  or on god?  

Oh boy, hypothetical question time again.  If God told me to murder you
and I did in fact murder you then they could place the responsibility on
God and myself.  God will hold responsibility because God ordered it, and I
will hold responsibility because I executed the order.  If that was
something God was wont to do, which God hasn't.  Now what does this have to do
with the discussion?

>wc> Would you please answer my question that was left from the last post?

>Are you referring to this question:  

>    Did God say, "Love thy neighbor as thyself?"

>My answer is, "I don't know". 

No I'm referring to the one that was left at the top of both that post and
this one:  

Show me how God disproves of the way humans treat animals.

Will Christie


-- 
==========================================================================
  Any opinions expressed above are usually made with some thought which   
  is my own and is not intended to represent the University in any way.
==========================================================================
Newsgroups: talk.politics.animals