HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: greg@silver.lcs.mit.edu (Hossein Ali Qomi (mka Gregory F. Rose))
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Aragonese Fealty ?
Date: 3 Sep 92 23:52:03 GMT
Followup-To: rec.org.sca
Organization: The Rialto

Unto the good gentles of the Rialto does Hossein Ali Qomi send greetings and
prayers for the blessings of Allah.

Eleonora van den Bogaerde recently posted:

>a friend of mine asked me to make this request of the Rialto,
>
>Some time ago someone was using as a sig a oath of fealty which I think may
>have been from Aragon. It went something like 'we who are no better than you
>swear to you who are no better than us ...". If anyone can remember the full
>quotation and its source I would be most appreciative of having it so that I
>can pass it on to her.

The "Oath of the Aragonese" is, sad to say, a legend, rather than historical
fact, as Ralph Giersey demonstrated in his brilliant book, _If Not, Not: 
The Oath of the Aragonese and the Legendary Laws of Sobrarbe_ (Princeton:
Princeton University Press, 1968).  It was probably circulated as anti-
Habsburg propaganda, but was never used as an official oath, and its
first instance appears in Francois Hotman's _Francogallia_ (1573), a
Huguenot tract: "We, who are worth as much as you, make you our King and
Lord, provided that you guard for us our fueros and liberties, and if not,
not."

Sorry to disappoint, but as a fealty oath, it's a myth.

Best Wishes,

Hossein/Greg
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: parr@acs.ucalgary.ca (Charles Parr)
Subject: Re: Carolus goes to Toronto...
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 92 19:44:06 GMT
Organization: The University of Calgary, Alberta

In article <PA142548.252.714852964@utkvm1.utk.edu> PA142548@utkvm1.utk.edu (T. Archer) writes:
>In article <92Aug26.160720.32507@acs.ucalgary.ca> parr@acs.ucalgary.ca (Charles Parr) writes:
>>My shield will be either my old device (azure, a martlet volant
>>rising to dexter, in chief thre mullets of four points or) or
>>my new device, if I finish the shield (Per saltire or and azure,
>>a cock erect gules, a chief enarched of the last)...as you can
>>see I am not quite sure *what* I will look like. 
>
>Why not add a collar to that rooster and have a cock, erect, engorged...
>
>(Ooops... did I say that?)

Because that would be crude, milord ;-)

Several people firmly believe I chose this because of the blazon,
not so. The cock is a very fierce bird, and almost unused in
heraldry.

Had I been willing to face the bird to sinister, i am told I
could have passed it without chief or divided field.

BTW, those who refer to it as a screaming death chicken often
find their helmets filled with live mealworms...

Regards, Carolus malvoix
Montengarde, An Tir
-- 
Within the span of the last few weeks I have heard elements of
separate threads which, in that they have been conjoined in time,
struck together to form a new chord within my hollow and echoing
gourd. --Unknown net.person
From: salley@niktow.canisius.edu (David Salley)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Clueless Classes
Date: 29 Aug 92 05:26:36 GMT
Organization: Canisius College, Buffalo NY. 14208

Solveig Throndardottir writes:
> Master Arval suggests a mechanism for screening those who teach classes
> at Pennsic.  While the ultimate goal (higher quality classes) is laudable,
> the mechanism may in fact be counter-productive.  Some time ago, I had
> a discussion with another gentle concerning an A&S survey issued some
> time ago.  It placed a heavy emphasis on SCA awards, SCA A&S competitions
> and SCA apprenticeships.  I noticed when studying the form that it made me
> seem woefully umprepared, ignorant, incompetent, etc. in areas which I
> have actually studied formally for several years.  The situation with
> the gentle with whom I corresponded was even more sevear.  (As I recall
> he merely had a mundane graduate degree in his subject.)  Thus, care
> should be exercised when screening A&S lectures so that genuine research
> and genuine knowledge is not excluded for lack of SCA brownie points.

Agreed, I overlooked mundane qualifications in my other posting.  One of 
the few times the Ice Dragon pentathlon locked horns with the East A&S
office was when the kingdom officer asked if Ice Dragon could be made an
official part of the kingdom A&S competitions.  I said I had no objections
as long as it was announced ahead of time so that competitors knew their
scores would be included in the kingdom database.  Unfortunately, she was
of the opinion that I had just given her permission to select the category 
judges for me!  And in her opinion, only Laurels were qualified to judge.
*SNORT*  In the first place, we don't have that many Laurels attending Ice
Dragon (we need 75 - 100 judges) and in the second place, a few of her
experts were on our "Not Wanted as Judges" list for their inability to keep
judging and politics separate.  One particular argument we had went as follows:
	Her: You have [name deleted] judging Embroidery.
	Me: Yes.
	Her: She's not a Laurel, she doesn't have a Maunch [EK Arts], she
		doesn't even have her Award of Arms yet.  We have Laurels
		who enter these competitions.  What makes you think she 
		qualified to judge the entries?
	Me: She's a Past President of the National Embroidery Society.
She got to judge.
                                                       - Dagonell

SCA Persona : Lord Dagonell Collingwood of Emerald Lake, CSC, CK, CTr
Habitat	    : East Kingdom, AEthelmearc Principality, Rhydderich Hael Barony
Disclaimer  : A society that needs disclaimers has too many lawyers.
Internet    : salley@niktow.cs.canisius.edu
USnail-net  : David P. Salley, 136 Shepard Street, Buffalo, New York 14212-2029

THE LAST THREE WINNERS OF AETHELMEARC CORONET TOURNEY HAVE BEEN...
_A_riel       fighting for the wife of Sir Raimund  of Rhydderich Hael
_B_ear        fighting for the wife of Sir Ogami    of Rhydderich Hael
_C_hristopher fighting for the wife of Sir Carthalo of Rhydderich Hael
  "Hello? Sir Bedawyr? This is _D_agonell.  If you're not fighting for your
   wife Lena in the next Coronet Tourney, I have a proposition for you ..."
From: bq434@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Michael A. Chance)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: bunny round and other weird words
Date: 1 Sep 1992 22:23:32 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: bq434@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Michael A. Chance)
NNTP-Posting-Host: slc5.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, Kwelland-Njal wrote:

[quoting me]
>)(who left Ansteorra just after he discovered that most of his opponent's
>)shields were bigger than he is - you can't hit what you can't see! 8-)
>
>	Sure there is.  The tactic was first described to me as (then)
>Earl Lloyd von Acker's fighting style (Lloyd is not excessively tall):
>
>You just climb up the face of the shield, sit on top of it and beat them
>about the head and shoulders until they fall down.
>
>It certainly seemed to work for him...

Ah, but that's only half of the trick.  True, I couldn't see much of my
opponents; but if I got close enough, _they_ couldn't see _me_ AT ALL!
It's easy to get kills when your opponent sticks his head over the top
of his shield to see where you've gone - BOINK!

BTW, I got to hear the above story from Duke Lloyd himself, as well as
the other variation.  Use a small round shield and a good, solid mace;
run up to your opponent (who has a shield the size of a barn door); hook
your shield arm over the top of your opponent's shield (a gross abuse of
the shield-snatch rule); pull yourself off the ground and above the top
of the shield; and proceed to pummel your opponent about the head and
shoulders without the barn door in the way.

Mikjal Annarbjorn
("but that trick NEVER works...")
-- 
Michael A. Chance          St. Louis, Missouri, USA    "At play in the fields
Work: mc3078@sw1sta.sbc.com                             of St. Vidicon"
Play: bq434@cleveland.freenet.edu
      mchance@nyx.cs.du.edu
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: aryk@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (A.J.S. Nusbacher)
Subject: Re: elizabethan costume
Organization: University of Toronto -- Hart House
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 16:32:39 GMT

In article <9208271845.AA14161@noc2.dccs.upenn.edu> WALTER@tandem.physics.upenn.EDU writes:

>	Speaking of the Elizabethan age, did anyone else experience the thatched
>hovel built by the Trayned Band, known as the Green Man?  I spent fantastic 
>evening there gambling with period cards and money, amid the odor of damp 
>thatch.

I should point out that while the Green Man Inne was indeed adjacent to the
Trayned Bandes camp, it was not a Trayned Bandes project.  Mr. Gavin Danker,
who sells the splendid "Lion's Paw" boots, is a member of the Companie of
Saint George in California.  The Companie exists both within and outside of
the SCA, and it concentrates on the early fifteenth century.

The Green Man was built on-site, and the thatching technique was the same as
that used on the cottage in Merowald's camp.  Labourers were drawn from the
Trayned Bandes, from the occasional visitor or passerby, and from the Eoforwic
camp.

The Trayned Bandes are planning to muster again at Pennsic next year, and
we are compiling a mailing list to keep people in touch through the year.
Anybody interested in camping in the 16th century, camping adjacent to it,
or even in just visiting by day, should send a snail mail address to Jef
Singman (Jeffrey.L.Singman@um.cc.umich.edu).

Aryk Nusbacher
From: bq434@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Michael A. Chance)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: consort gender
Date: 1 Sep 1992 22:07:30 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: bq434@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Michael A. Chance)
NNTP-Posting-Host: slc5.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, Ailsa (not Walburga) wrote:

>halls@gn.ecn.purdue.edu (Scott Hall) writes:
>
>> I think that same sex consorts might be considered under the ruling as swasti
>>
>> and pentagrams.  All three apperantly happened in period, but the support of
>> which could hurt the SCA.
>
>oh really?  the sca publically admitting that it has icky icky fags and dykes
>in it is too dangerous to do?  lovely.  luckily, some of us icky icky ones are
>too damned obvious to be swept under the rug.
>
>homophobia again rears its ugly head.  *bleah*

Ailsa, what I think Jafar was alluding to is that in some of the more
unenlightened areas of the US, the SCA already rates somewhere just
above baby-eating devil worshippers, and _active_ _official_ support of
alternative lifestyles would be just one more nail in the coffin.  Is
this unenlightened viewpoint valid?  I don't think so, but the Corporate
officers have to take it into consideration when making official policy.

Does the SCA active _discourage_ alternate lifestyles?  No; the
semi-official (I don't think there's every been an _official_ statement
from the BoD) is that members are free to research and re-create any
historically valid lifestyle they wish, but the SCA, Inc. doesn't
officially endorse or disapprove of any of them (including the
"traditional" family structure).

It's the same with religion:  You are free to research and re-create any
historically valid religion from the SCA's scope of interest.  But the
SCA, Inc. does not official sanction, endorse, or disapprove of any of
them (including Christianity).

Several other people have pointed out that there are no recorded
examples of same-sex heads-of-state in period, and pointed out the
historically vaild alternatives.  I imagine that this fact, combined
with the concerns of the appearance of official approval/disapproval
were the main factors in the BoD's decision on the gender of landed
nobility.

Mikjal Annarbjorn
-- 
Michael A. Chance          St. Louis, Missouri, USA    "At play in the fields
Work: mc3078@sw1sta.sbc.com                             of St. Vidicon"
Play: bq434@cleveland.freenet.edu
      mchance@nyx.cs.du.edu
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: aryk@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (A.J.S. Nusbacher)
Subject: Re: period songs
Organization: University of Toronto -- Hart House
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 20:54:34 GMT

In article <1992Sep4.191429.27867@socrates.umd.edu> sussman@socrates.umd.edu (Jeff Sussman) writes:

>Under this definition of period you make it impossible to compose new material
>that is period.  

Depends on how well your time machine works... \8-)

>For my own definition of period, a song that is composed and
>presented exactly in a period fashion is period.  If I make a replica of a
>period pavillion, using period tools and period materials I call it a period
>pavillion.

For most purposes, however, you are lying.  No, that's harsh -- you've made
it clear that what you call "period" is rather a broad definition.  How
about this:  you've humpty-dumptied the word "period".  That is, you've
made it mean exactly what you want it to mean, regardless of its commonly
accepted meaning.

Perhaps we could agree on "period-style", which, like "kosher-style" and
"country-style", are widely understood yet not accepted by purists.

Aryk Nusbacher

BTW, to humpty-dumpty is a transitive verb.  Remember, you saw it here first!
Now to use it in German.  Er hat das wort humpty-dumptiet.  Call the OED!
Call Langenscheidt!  Get me out of my office before they have to come with
nets!

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: thorntn@ccu.umanitoba.ca (Duncan Peter G. Thornton)
Subject: Re: COVINGTON CROSS
Organization: University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Canada
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 06:56:20 GMT

In <714969221.F00006@therose.pdx.com> Suze.Hammond@f56.n105.z1.therose.pdx.com (Suze Hammond) writes:

>DP>  worse than the daughter's supposedly real English accent? did most of
>DP>  the cast, in fact, graduate from the Kevin Costner School of Lousy
>DP>  English Accents? A good half of them didn't sound English at all -
>DP>  they sounded like Americans with a speech impediment.)

>Our group also recognized most of the players as English/British bit 
>players. Methinks you have a mis-conception about English accents milord.

>These accents are the modern British/International accents as usually seen 
>on their analogues to the Eyewitless News here. *Our* accent is degrading 
>theirs, or so they say....  :-)

Uh, well, look, I've lived in the U.K. on two occasions - in fact I've
_taught_ English in the U.K.; some of the accents sounded authentic,
some passable, but about half of the leads (check out the Daughter,
say), just didn't - and the daughter, and that guy who's on _Roseanne_
are working American actors, and they sound just like it.  They
sounded, in fact, a lot like Kevin Costner's attempt at a mid-
Atlantic accent, which seemed to consist mostly of keeping his
American flatness of pitch while dropping his Rs ("Let's show them
English couwage!"). (A better compromise would have been to keep his
Rs but attempt to use more variation of pitch.)

- Corwin of Lincolne

                    
Duncan Thornton          | Modernists had something to say which required them
thorntn@ccu.umanitoba.ca | to be revolutionary; post-modernists are required
  *GKC rules ok*         |    to be revolutionary, but have nothing to say.

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca,rec.arts.sf.written
From: vader@meryl.csd.uu.se (]ke Eldberg)
Subject: Re: SCA Heraldry and Copyright Law
Organization: University of Uppsala, Sweden
	<3uaDqB1w164w@sys6626.bison.mb.ca>
	<1992Aug31.190700.18447@watson.ibm.com>
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 23:55:17 GMT

Greetings from William de Corbie.

I asked the Swedish State herald about protection of arms here.
Surprisingly, Swedish law does not explicitly protect *any*
arms except the Royal ones, as a symbol of the State. Personal
coats of arms are not legally protected. Why? Well, it seems
they count on that the public outrage against the extremely
bad taste of abusing someone's arms will be enough to deter
people from doing it.

The only way to legally protect any symbol in Sweden is to
register it as a trademark! So it would not surprise me in
the least if I saw someone called "Count Sven Sparre (tm)"
:-)

William
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: sussman@socrates.umd.edu (Jeff Sussman)
Subject: Re: safety for marshals (was: Re: Town Battle at the War)
Summary: shapes not colors
Organization: University of Maryland University College
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 19:52:11 GMT

Greetings Unto the Rialto

In article (Michael A. Chance) writes:


>tabard with the crossed yellow swords on it.  Swords tend to be
>somewhat hard to see on any constrasting field, and yellow on black is
>not real high on the visibility charts (black on yellow is, which is why
>road signs use it).  Plus, a high percentage of the fighters on the
>field tend to also be wearing black, making instant identification all
>the more difficult.

With the array of flashing colors that a fighter is presented with during
combat he can't make identification decisions without stopping and assessing
the situation.  We can all tell stories about melees between units on the
same side that resulted when the unit they were both fighting, from different
angles, disappeared.  Colored tape on helms only helps when the units are
not yet engaged.  Once the weapons start flying it takes yelling and screaming
to get two same side units to stop killing each other.

A marshal's main defense is identification.  The biggest part of this is the 
lack of a helm.  The marshal who got hit in the head during the town battle
might have been hit because he was wearing the hat that saved him from more
serious injury (of course, this is conjecture).  Weird colors, OSHA orange
etc., are not going to make much of a difference.

>(An aside:  Can anyone tell me why, with most of the US in a temperate
>to subtopical climate, black armor is so popular?  Or does testosterone
>poisoning affect the parts of the brain controlling common sense?)

Never underestimate the effects of testosterone poisoning.

>If the marshallate wants to be easily distinguished from the combatants,
>they should be wearing something that is easily visible and instantly
>distinguished from anything that most combatants would wear.  Reversing
>the current  marshall's badge is a good possible suggestion (ie, black
>swords on yellow).

A marshal who gets into a melee, as was required of us who marshalled in the
town battle, is going to be in trouble.  Scenarios need to be designed as to
not imperil the marshals.  Color coding is less effective than avoidance.


Richard 				Jeffrey Sussman
Storvik					Silver Spring
Atlantia				Maryland


Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: KM4V@MARISTB.BITNET (Tony Bayer)
Subject: Adress needed
Organization: The Internet
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 17:59:09 GMT

Could someone send me the correct address to subscribe to this list.
Sorry for taking up space.

     Tony B.
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman)
Subject: Re: SCA in Literature
Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1992 18:07:24 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

Greetings from Arval!  

Eilidh wrote about Stasheff's Warlock series.  You may not know that
Stasheff had reportedly never heard of the SCA when we wrote the first book
of the series, "The Warlock in Spite of Himself" (certainly the best of
them, and in my opinion the only one really worth the reading).  The
explicit SCA references were written into the series later.  "Escape
Velocity", the prequel that made the SCA connection explicit, is amusing
for SCA members, but not nearly up to the quality of the first book.

===========================================================================
Arval Benicoeur                                       mittle@watson.ibm.com
From: jtn@nutter.cs.vt.edu (Terry Nutter)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Rain gear - was Re: Pennsic in brief
Date: 26 Aug 92 15:10:40 GMT
Followup-To: rec.org.sca
Organization: The Rialto

Greetings to all, especially Alexander of Kiev, from Angharad.  Concerning 
water-shedding cottons, Alexander writes,

>I have a Ralph Lauren rain jacker made of a light, thin 100% cotton 
>material that sounds much like this.  Perversely, this jacket is 
>machine washable but quite sucessful at keeping the rain off.  It 
>works because the thread count is so high -- I haven't actually 
>counted  ;^)  but it appears to be well over 200 tpi.  Unfortunately,
>I am given to understand that such tight weaves in cotton were only 
>made possible by the invention of the steam loom in the 19th C.

Perhaps one of the spinners/weavers (Ilaine?) could help out here.
I recall reading that the best grades of linen woven in period were
substantially _higher_ in thread count than anything modern industrial
weaving produces.  I suspect that the problem in the case of cotton
is not that of getting a tight weave by hand, but the difference
between Egyptian and New World cotton.  (Old World cottons have a 
much shorter, coarser fibre and are much, much harder to spin; at
least, so I read.)

Fibre folks?

I tend to agree, from what little I know, that a light cotton woven
so as to be watershedding is unlikely to be period; sad, as it is so
very much cheaper than silk.....

Cheers,

-- Angharad/Terry
From: bull@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: SCA Heraldry and Copyright Law
Date: 31 Aug 92 17:22:37 +1000
Organization: Computer Centre, Monash University, Australia

In article <1992Aug30.133249.6672@maccs.dcss.mcmaster.ca>, kenm@maccs.dcss.mcmaster.ca (...Jose) writes:
> In article <N9BBqB1w164w@sys6626.bison.mb.ca> boris@sys6626.bison.mb.ca (boris) writes:
>>bull@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au writes:
>>
>>
>> Here in North America (and in many many places) Hearldry is just an art
>>form and the individual armorials are works in that art form.
>
>       Am I to understand that the above was written by a *Manitoban*....
> a fellow Canadian?  Sigh.  In th United States of America, heraldry is
> just another art for like corporate logos or the Golden Arches; here in
> Canada, heraldry is heraldry, and rights to arms come down from the
> crown (until recently via the Ulster, Garter or Lyon King of Arms, but
> since 1988 from the Canadian College of Arms).  Take a look at the arms
> on any Canadian bill, or the crest on the Manitoba or Ontario flag, or at
> your city hall.

        I expect the matter to be similar here in Australia, but chose
England and the RCoA because I'm not versed in the regulations in
Australia. The point I wanted to make was that mundane protection of
SCA Heraldry will vary around the world, unless the BoD decides to
apply for worldwide copyright on Heraldry registered by SCA rank and
file members. While this would appear to be a simple approach to the
matter, Boris has pointed out that there are members who prefer that
the BoD not have such authority over the personal Arms and devices of
individual members.

        Speaking for myself, I don't have Arms. Come to think of it,
I'm not an *Official* member of the SCA, so what do I care. ;-)

        Also a mundane monarchist, but probably for very different
reasons.

           Wolfgang Langenmantel, Convent of St Monica, Lochac



           Bull@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au  OR  bull@monu1.cc.monash.oz
                    DOD# 251  '84 VF 750   Closet Ducatisto
             Disclaimer. If you love your llama, let it lambada.