HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: robichau@lambda.msfc.nasa.gov (Paul Robichaux)
Newsgroups: sci.military
Subject: Re: US SMG (Was Re: US Navy's request for Beretta M9 cancellation...)
Date: 15 Apr 92 04:19:28 GMT
Organization: New Technology, Inc.


From robichau@lambda.msfc.nasa.gov (Paul Robichaux)

In <1992Apr14.004127.25133@cbnews.cb.att.com> Steven.Schultz@mixcom.mixcom.com (Steven.Schultz) writes:

>We use the M249 and M60 as SMGs, and neither are 9mm. I have specs if
>yo want them.

Actually, neither of these are submachine guns (SMGs.) Both, however,
qualify as "light" machine guns, although that term seems to have
fallen into disfavor.

The M249 SAW is a 5.56mm weapon, which places it emphatically in the
light class. The M60 is a 7.62mm weapon- "heavier" than the SAW, but
not exactly an M2 or anything.

In addition to Delta Force, various SEAL teams, and the FBI, Marine
Force Recon elements use the MP5 (both the silenced and unsilenced
version) as their standard SMG.

-- 
Paul Robichaux, KD4JZG          | NTI doesn't pay for my opinions, and NASA
robichau@lambda.msfc.nasa.gov   | doesn't know I have any.
	     This message printed on recycled phosphors.
From: plains!umnstat.stat.umn.edu!gary@uunet.UU.NET (Gary Oehlert)
Newsgroups: sci.military
Subject: Re:  Low Altitude Training
Date: 14 Apr 92 00:54:29 GMT
Organization: School of Statistics, University of Minnesota


From plains!umnstat.stat.umn.edu!gary@uunet.UU.NET (Gary Oehlert)

Yet another "while on vacation I saw ..." posting.  We usually visit my
wife's parents in the White Mountains of New Hampshire each summer, and 
several times I heard jets.  I never saw the source, but they said it was
"the Air Force playing".  Summer 1991 I discovered my mistake was looking
up instead of down.  There, across the Pemi river valley, ducking behind
hills, popping up for a few seconds and then disappearing again was a
pair of A-10s.  I was at least a couple of miles away, so it was difficult
to judge their altitude, but they were below me and below all the
hilltops.

A week later (Tuesday is Air Force day in the White Mountains), I heard
them again, but this time they were up high.  I had always heard that
dog fights in jets went from horizon to horizon, but not in the A-10.
They were just right there, rolling, looping, turning, and I never had
to move my head to watch them.  Seeing this, you can really understand
the origin of the term dogfight.  Sadly, they stopped after about 30
seconds and moved off out of sight at low altitude.

-- 

Gary W. Oehlert					Voice: 612-625-4758
Dept. of Applied Statistics			Fax:   612-624-2719
University of Minnesota				
1994 Buford Ave.				gary@umnstat.stat.umn.edu
St. Paul, MN 55108				stat201@umnacux.bitnet
From: kitchel@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu (Sid Kitchel)
Newsgroups: sci.military
Subject: Re: Japanese Jets in World War 2
Keywords: Kikka, Shusui, jet, rocket
Date: 8 Apr 92 00:37:33 GMT
Article-I.D.: cbnews.1992Apr8.003733.10327
Organization: Computer Science, Indiana University


From "Sid Kitchel" <kitchel@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu>

ldoering@engin.umich.edu (Laurence Doering) writes:


>From ldoering@engin.umich.edu (Laurence Doering)

>In article <1992Mar28.024152.19541@cbnews.cb.att.com> jfb@ihlpl.att.com (Joseph F Baugher) writes:
>>
>>These questions about Japanese jet-powered aircraft during World War 2
>>aroused my interest.  Here's what I uncovered.
>>
>>The Nakajima Kikka (Orange Blossom) was a twin-jet  fighter  based  on
>>the  German  Messerschmitt Me 262.  [...]

>One of the two Kikka prototypes still exists - I've seen it at the 
>Air and Space Museum's Paul Garber Facility in Suitland, MD.  It looks
>a lot like an Me-262, but smaller and with less sweepback of the leading
>edges of the wings.  It's also missing one engine.
>The Garber Facility also has an Okha glide bomb on display.  Their
>annual open house is coming up (usually the last weekend in April.)
>If you're in the area then, check it out.

	The Paul E. Garber Preservation, Restoration and Storage
Facility is a part of the National Air and Space Museum. When I
visited there about a year ago they were actively restoring an Okha
suicide bomber and thirty feet away was the Enola Gay also under
renovation. 
	You shouldn't have to wait for an open house. Here's what
their pamphlet says:

	"Free tours of the Paul E. Garber Facility are available:

		Monday through Friday	10 a.m.
		Saturday and Sunday	10 a.m. and 1 p.m.

	Reservations for tours are required. It is advisable to
	make reservations at least three weeks in advance to
	assure that space is available on tours. For reservations
	and further information, call (202) 357-1400 (TDD 357-1505)
	between 9 a.m. and 3:15 p.m., Monday through Friday, or
	write:

		Tour Scheduler
		National Air and Space Museaum
		Smithsonian Institution
		Washington, D.C.  20560"

As reported above, the Garber Facility is in Suitland, Md. on Old
Silver Hill Road, just off Route 414.

							--Sid

-- 
Sid Kitchel...............WARNING: allergic to smileys and hearts....
Computer Science Dept.                         kitchel@cs.indiana.edu
Indiana University                              kitchel@iubacs.BITNET
Bloomington, Indiana  47405-4101........................(812)334-8100
From: fist@iscp.Bellcore.COM (Richard Pierson)
Newsgroups: sci.military
Subject: Re: accidental nuclear detonation
Date: 8 Apr 92 00:52:13 GMT
Organization: Bell Communications Research (Bellcore)


From fist@iscp.Bellcore.COM (Richard Pierson)

There is an area between Ft Dix and NAS Lakehurst where
a nuc blew apart, the missile fuel detonated and shattered
the war head, this was back in the 50's and the area is still
contaminated, fenced , the whole bit. I did not pay much 
attention to what model but now that this thread is running
Ill have to ask this weekend,
-- 
##########################################################
There are only two types of ships in the NAVY; SUBMARINES 
                 and TARGETS !!!
Richard Pierson E06584 vnet: [908] 699-6063
Internet: fist@iscp.belcore.com,|| UUNET:uunet!bcr!fist  
#include <std.disclaimer> My opinions are my own!!!
I DONT CARE IF I SOUND CONFUSED, I KNOW WHAT I MEAN !!!
From: duggan@siam.org (PCD)
Newsgroups: sci.military
Subject: Re: Low Altitude Flight
Date: 15 Apr 92 23:41:11 GMT
Organization: AT&T


From PCD <duggan@siam.org>


>>From RBARTON@who.trincoll.edu (Ran Barton, III)
>In article <1992Apr11.002551.19686@cbnews.cb.att.com>, brian@coombs.anu.edu.au
>(Brian) writes:


>I thought I would add that a B-52 pilot at a Dover, Del. AFB airshow
>bragged repeatedly about low-level training in Morroco (of all places)
>and dodging their Mirage F1s.  When asked specific altitudes, he demurred
>but intimated that he had to climb to turn, so that I would imagine he was
>down at ~50' or so.  Not bad for a plane older than its crew and designed for
>high altitude penetration.


I had been under the impression that the B-52 was
originally made for low altitude flight, flying under
radar, but that its mission changed after Gary Powers was
shot down, since that proved that the Soviets had
supersonic surface to air missiles. Before it was assumed
that the B-52 would be able to outrun/evade such threats.
Is it just my imagination?

paul duggan
From: wwarf@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (wayne john warf)
Newsgroups: sci.military
Subject: Re: Early Molotov Cocktails
Date: 7 Apr 92 03:30:20 GMT
Organization: Indiana University


From wayne john warf <wwarf@copper.ucs.indiana.edu>

In article <1992Mar28.023429.18603@cbnews.cb.att.com> Ronald.Ih@Eng.Sun.COM (Ron Ih) writes:
>
>In article <1992Mar27.014744.1715@cbnews.cb.att.com> palm@admin.kth.se (Christer Palm) writes:
>>
>>Yes thats right and a Molotov Cocktail is not a petrol bomb. The cocktail
>>is a mix of potassium chlorate, coal tar and something colled noulene, what
>>noulene is i dont knew but my guess is a varnolen type liquid. To set the
>>cocktail of they used sulphuric acid.
>
>Maybe there is such a bomb, but I find it hard to believe that poorly armed
>partisans will have noulene (whatever it is) or sulfuric acid in decent 
>quantities. In any event, it seems ridiculous to use a weapon which requires
>such a dangerous substance just to set it off when gasoline in a bottle with
>a flaming wick can do that same thing much more simply.

According to"The Encyclopedia of World War II" the Molotov Cocktail was
a simple glass bottle filled with gasoline and sealed with a cloth wick
which was lighted and thrown. It states that they were first used in
the Spanish Civil War, but earned their nickname during the Soviet-
Finnish War.

The OSS used items like "Capsules H" and the "Incendiary Packet" which
were based on Potassium Chlorate, sugar, and sulfuric acid mixing to
ignite some combustible material, but I've never heard of anything like
described above.

[mod.note:  As everyone seems to be talking past each other, let me
clarify.  From what I've read, it's clear that "Molotov Cocktail" has
become a generic term, like "Kleenex."  It was originally a gasoline-filled
bottle with a cloth wick, as described here.  Whenever it became army
issue, as in Finland and several other armies, it was usually improved;
better fuel, perhaps a gelling agent, and some form of contact fuse to
dispose of the wick.  
	The Finns were the first to apply the name "Molotov Cocktail" to a
"petrol bomb" of this sort, so any "official" definition would have to be
theirs.  The term will still be applied to any improvised petrol bomb,
however.  Let's not worry this to death.  - Bill ]

-- 
 *  WWARF@ucs.indiana.edu**I speak for me,OK?**sic semper tyrannis    *
 *   NRA LIFE* *NRA Certified Instructor* *Penna. R&PA* *Ind. SR&PA   *
 * Department of Decision & Information Systems, Indiana University   *
 * Bloomington, IN 47405 USA* *Pennsylvania CCW Lic.*Indiana CCW Lic. *
Newsgroups: sci.military
From: michele@deis21cineca.it (Michele Favalli)
Subject: Libyan crisis
Organization: *********************************************************
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1992 01:25:26 GMT


From michele@deis21cineca.it (Michele Favalli)


Hi, 

does someone have any info's on the libic missilistic arsenal? 
I know that they have Frog-7 rockets and Scud-B missiles, I don't know 
if they have extended range modified Scud's (Iraqi or chinese versions) 
or other missiles made in South America (Condor ...). 

Thank you in advance 

Michele Favalli

Michele Favalli 
University of Bologna
40136 Bologna Italy
e-mail michele@deis21.cineca.it
From: fredn@avo.hp.com (Fred Nicholson)
Newsgroups: sci.military
Subject: Basement Cruise Missiles??
Date: 15 Apr 92 03:54:55 GMT
Organization: AT&T


From Fred Nicholson <fredn@avo.hp.com>

>From sysmgr@king.eng.umd.edu (Doug Mohney)
>
>If one accepts the loss at face value of one North Korean freighter carrying
>Scuds by U.S. Naval forces, it might be easier than you think.

Lets just say that the military must trade-off the benefit of using 
intelligence data with the cost of revealing its intelligence capabilities.  

Nuff said.

P.S.  - Freighters are big.
From: patter@dasher.cc.bellcore.com
Newsgroups: sci.military
Subject: Re: pistols vs. airliners
Date: 15 Apr 92 23:20:57 GMT
Organization: Bellcore, Livingston, NJ


From patter@dasher.cc.bellcore.com

In article <1992Apr15.040751.7337@cbnews.cb.att.com> draughn@iitmax.iit.edu (Mark Draughn) writes:

>Well, the notion that one bullethole could cause *a pressure loss*
>with dire results is a myth for several reasons, not the least of
>which is that a pressure loss is not an incredibly bad thing: tank-fed
>oxygen can keep the pilots and passengers healthy until the plane
>reaches a safe altitude.

True, at altitudes below about 40,000 feet. The main problem has proven
to be the fact that roughly 70% of the passengers either fail to put
their oxygen mask on or fail to initiate the oxygen flow by pulling
on the mask. There aren't enough crew on an airliner to keep everyone
breathing when depressurization occurs.

The choice of pistols and ammo (and lots of marksmanship practice) is
a very, very real consideration for the air marshalls.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
                    | Try to live your life so that you wouldn't be
George Patterson -  | afraid to sell the family parrot to the town
                    | gossip.
                    |                            Will Rogers
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: cmort@NCoast.ORG (Christopher Morton)
Newsgroups: sci.military
Subject: Re: US Navy's request for Beretta M9 cancellation...
Date: 17 Apr 92 01:14:34 GMT
Followup-To: sci.military
Organization: North Coast Public Access *NIX, Cleveland, OH


From cmort@NCoast.ORG (Christopher Morton)

As quoted from <1992Apr15.040859.7572@cbnews.cb.att.com> by bhanafee@deimos.ads.com (Brian Hanafee):

> After following this thread a few days, I asked a (recent) ex-SEAL
> friend of mine what they use.  It is a 9mm, but not the Glock.  They
> don't use the Glock because it doesn't have a clip release lever.  He
> thought it was too bad they didn't, because otherwise the Glock is
> virtually indestructable.

What do you mean by "clip release lever"?  It has a US style magazine release,
the same as the M1911A1, Beretta, and SIG.

-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------  

"Well whose opinions did you THINK these were...?" 
------------------------------------------------------------------  
"It's 11:59pm, do you know where your congressman's checkbook is?"
------------------------------------------------------------------ 
Christopher Morton
{uunet|backbone}!ncoast.org!cmort                      cmort@ncoast.org
From: aclark@sdcc13.ucsd.edu (Andrew Clark)
Newsgroups: sci.military
Subject: Re:  Low Altitude Training
Summary: another tale of low-altitude hijinks
Date: 13 Apr 92 04:02:49 GMT
Organization: University of California, San Diego, CA, USA


From aclark@sdcc13.ucsd.edu (Andrew Clark)


Two years ago I was on vacation a few dozen miles south of Big Sur,
California.  We were staying in a campground at sea level, with a
beach right out front.  A highway bridge about 50 feet above sea
level divides the campground and the beach.  The distance between
the highway bridge and the water is about 100 feet.

I was on the beach sunbathing when I heard <LOUD> thunder and looked
up.  And ducked.  And prayed.  A jet fighter was coming down
the valley behind me and after passing 20ft over the highway
bridge, flew at least fifteen feet BELOW the level of the bridge 
while it was still over the beach.  I was impressed :)  

It was there and gone, just like that.  The sun was in my
eyes from that point, so the only thing I noticed about the aircraft
was that it had two engines and two tail fins.  It started flying
much faster then and soon disappeared from view.

Low-altitude training isn't a luxury, it's a necessity.  Except
against low-tech opponents who put mass quantities of lead in the
air, as the British discovered in the Gulf.   
-- 
Andrew Clark - My ignorance is my own fault. 
aclark@UCSD.EDU   :-)  I hate Macs!  :-) 
Repeal California Prop. 13!  Demand sensible property taxes!                 
Newsgroups: sci.military
From: urf@sluss.ki.icl.se (Urban Fredriksson)
Subject: Missile Approach Warner question
Organization: AT&T
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1992 03:32:41 GMT


From urf@sluss.ki.icl.se (Urban Fredriksson)

In Flygvapennytt (Sw. AF mag.) 1/92, there is a picture of the
missile approach warner on a Su-24MK. It is a slightly flattened
hemisphere, placed on the top side. It is densely packed with
sensors, which are round panels, placed about 20 to each six
staggered "latitudes". They are therefore much smaller near the
"pole". This I can imagine is because the actual sensor elements
are placed vertically inside, as the horizontal displacement
between rows is virtually the same.

What I can't understand, is why they have different colours? They
range from milky white over sandy yellow to dark reddish brown in
(at least) six steps. The pattern seems completely random.
Explanations anyone?
-- 
 Urban Fredriksson    Speaks for himself only
 urf@icl.se   <- In case 'reply' doesn't work
From: ijk@violin.att.com (Ihor J Kinal)
Newsgroups: sci.military
Subject: Re: Accidental ICBM Launch
Summary: Accidental launch - plus one man firing.
Date: 13 Apr 92 03:36:20 GMT
Article-I.D.: cbnews.1992Apr13.033620.4381
Organization: AT&T


From ijk@violin.att.com (Ihor J Kinal)

In article <1992Apr11.000139.15598@cbnews.cb.att.com>, "Mike Cancellier" <cvalj000@CSUPomona.Edu> writes:
> 
  Interesting story, but there is almost no way
> it can be true. Sorry

Of course, we'll never know, but let me drudge up something
from my memory banks [this is at least 20 years old, so I
obviously don't have the reference at hand, but I believe it
was from Reader's Digest {of course, what, if any the original
reference was, escapes me} ].  The article was a fairly typical
type story of life in a missile-silo.

Two things stuck in my mind:
	1).  A story that technicians once frantically worked to abort
an unauthorized  missile-launch. [No further details available -
I suppose this thread really belongs in RISKS - how failsafe are these
things????].

	2).  The double-key scenario - what would they do if one
of the officers decided NOT to turn the key.  According to the
story, they worked out an alternative.  Take a string, wrap
it around the key a few times, then bring the string over to
your position, and when needed, just pull the string.

[This bothered me a lot - I hoped that the  Air force added
a button to bush with your other hand, or something to make this
a lot harder - of course, separate locations, with a separate
set of keys also makes it a lot harder].

Standard disclaimer - I've never been close to a missile silo either.

Ihor Kinal
att!cbnewsh!ijk
From: fist@iscp.Bellcore.COM (Richard Pierson)
Newsgroups: sci.military
Subject: Re: US SMG (Was Re: US Navy's request for Beretta M9 cancellation...)
Date: 15 Apr 92 04:18:23 GMT
Organization: Bell Communications Research (Bellcore)


From fist@iscp.Bellcore.COM (Richard Pierson)

National Guard maintenance units (mechanics ie: service battery
on both batallion, division levels) are still issued the 
grease gun (our service battery has 25 of the things) but
it has been over 5 years since they have been fired.
They dont know it yet but I scheduled them for next drill 
small arms qualfications at ft dix :-)
Dont know what happened but all of a sudden the .45 ammo
is available, which it hasnt been, to guard units in a long
time (about 5 years)
-- 
##########################################################
There are only two types of ships in the NAVY; SUBMARINES 
                 and TARGETS !!!
Richard Pierson E06584 vnet: [908] 699-6063
Internet: fist@iscp.belcore.com,|| UUNET:uunet!bcr!fist  
#include <std.disclaimer> My opinions are my own!!!
I DONT CARE IF I SOUND CONFUSED, I KNOW WHAT I MEAN !!!
From: USCLPAO@nctamslant.navy.mil (USCINCLANT PAO)
Newsgroups: sci.military
Subject: Navy News Service Headlines - 10 Apr 92
Date: 11 Apr 92 00:02:40 GMT
Organization: AT&T


From "USCINCLANT PAO" <USCLPAO@nctamslant.navy.mil>

Here are the headlines from the latest issue of the Navy News
Service, the weekly summary of Navy news and information
published by the Navy Internal Relations Activity in Washington
DC.  For a complete copy of this week's NavNews, or for
information about receiving NavNews by e-mail subscription or
through anonymous ftp, contact usclpao@nctamslant.navy.mil.

NAVY NEWS SERVICE -- NAVNEWS 015/92 -- 10 APR 92

A.1. Personnel Plans Presented to Congress
  2. Latest SRB Rates Announced
B. Around the Fleet 
  1. Notable Quotable:  SECNAV remarks in April '92 Seapower
  2. DESRON 31 Sets Sail for WWII Commemorations 
  3. Expanded Sea '92 Trains Reservists
  4. Navy Forms Partnerships with Schools 
  5. Speakers' Note:  The Navy Today--Number of ships deployed
  6. Salute to excellence:  Sailors Cited for Lifesaving Rescue
  7. This Week in the Navy:  
C. Personnel Notes
  1. Annual Recertification of BAQ and VHA Underway
  2. New Rating Structure for FTBs and MTs Announced
  3. Officer Education Opportunities Increase
  4. Naval War College Offers Nonresident Seminar
  5. Savings Bond Campaign Extended
D. Awards 
  1. Puget Sound Cited for Quality of Life
E. Short Splices      
  1. Desert Storm Report Released
  2. USS Midway Decommissioning
  3. President to Address Naval Academy and Other School Grads
  4. Navy Micro Computer Conference Cancelled
  5. NNOA Conference Participation Encouraged
  6. Navy News This Week 
Newsgroups: sci.military
From: baldwin@csservera.scs.usna.navy.mil (LT J.D. Baldwin)
Subject: AIR DEFENSE INITIATIVE:  What is it?
Organization: AT&T
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1992 00:46:04 GMT


From baldwin@csservera.scs.usna.navy.mil (LT J.D. Baldwin)

I have been unable to find anything about the objectives, costs, etc. of the
USAF Air Defense Initiative.  If anyone has even a general description of
what this Initiative is all about, please tell me ASAP.  I'd especially
appreciate pointers to journal articles, studies, etc. dealing with this
program.  My Naval War College team is putting together a presentation, of
which this is a minor part.  We'd like to at least be prepared to answer 
general questions about it.

I can't imagine this will be a popular topic.  If you have information that
will be of use to me, please mail it, as our newsfeed is about two weeks 
behind (please mail me a copy even if you post).  If anyone wants a summary
of what I get, mail me also.  If there's a lot of interest, I'll post what 
I find.
--
 From the catapult of:              |+| "If anyone disagrees with anything I
   _,_  J. D. Baldwin, Comp Sci Dept|+| say, I am quite prepared not only to
 _|70|___:::)=}-  U.S. Naval Academy|+| retract it, but also to deny under
 \      /   baldwin@usna.navy.mil   |+| oath that I ever said it." --T. Lehrer
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: dasher!patter@uunet.UU.NET (24224-guthrie)
Newsgroups: sci.military
Subject: Re: Offensive applications of SDI
Keywords: Thor (aka Crowbar), impact explosion, 16 tons of TNT
Date: 14 Apr 92 00:52:21 GMT
Organization: Bellcore, Livingston, NJ


From dasher!patter@uunet.UU.NET (24224-guthrie)

In article <1992Apr11.002344.19476@cbnews.cb.att.com> v064lnev@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Avatar) writes:

>	Could someone please explain to me how this is possible?  Am I to
>understand that the Thor (aka Crowbar) weapons system has an impact explosion 
>equivalent to 16 tons of TNT!?

That is correct. That statement is based on the assumption that these
"crowbars" will be traveling fast enough to vaporize on impact with
little penetration. Essentially you wind up with a partial conversion
of mass to energy. When you consider that primitive fission bombs (the
"other" example of conversion of mass to energy) produced the equivalent
of thousands of tons of TNT from about 35 pounds of material, Thor
doesn't seem to be real efficient.

The main problem with the idea is that it's difficult to strike a balance
between a speed high enough to produce this sort of power and a speed
which allows air friction to melt your missile.

Ain't kinetic energy wonderful?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
                    |
George Patterson -  | "Zero Defects": The result of shutting down a
                    |    production line.
                    |         Kelvin Throop - The Management Dictionary
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: sci.military