From: feit@acsu.buffalo.edu (Elissa Feit)
Newsgroups: alt.music.alternative
Subject: Re: Why I hate Sinead
Date: 11 Nov 92 05:25:30 GMT
Organization: State University of New York at Buffalo/Comp Sci

In article <1992Nov9.152721.17813@panix.com> jis@panix.com (Jack Szwergold) writes:
(I said:)
>>Some of us STILL don't support the last little war (which resulted in
>>the death of, oh, a million or more Iraqis). I think wearing a US flag
>>*is* similar to wearing SS insignia...  and you're comment about "we
>
>Excuse me, but you are really naive.  I hated the Gulf war.  I hate Nazi'a
>also.  Comparing the two is idiotic.  The thing about Hussein that made me

Yes, you are right. I need to be clearer in my comparison, because to
*equate* the two is belittling to those who died  from the Nazis...
On the other hand, I do see the two as incredibly similar. A million died
because of *us* in Iraq. Yet people blindly supported the war because
of patriotic fervor... the same reason Germans supported their govt.
throughout WWII.

and I said (a bit our of context here):
>>won".  ?!?!?!?!?!?  Oh!!!! I forgot!! That makes OUR side right. So
>>that if the Nazis had won, THEY would have been right.  I see. There is no
>>morality outside of might...  [didn't Socrates debate this with the Sophists
>>2500 years ago? haven't we fucking figured it out by now?]
>
>You are fucked up.  Let me give you a reason WHY the U.S. not as fascist
>as you believe.  If I objected to the Nazis, you know what would happen to
>mea.  I WOULD BE DEAD (the same goes for countries and governmental
...

This makes no sense. I was responding to the earlier exchange where
one person implied that the reason it was ok to be a jingoistic Amer.
but NOT a jingoistic German was because *we beat the Germans*. I
happen to think either is fucked. The Nazis were immoral, nay, evil.
Because they were.  and NOT because we beat them.  My point was that
the morality did NOT depend on the winning team. I believe we are in
agreement here.
>What I am trying to say is that you don't know what freedom is until you
>have been truly oppressed and to be as stupid as to assume that you can
>actually understand what true oppression, without having really gone
>through it is naive and childish (just like Sinead). 

Look, in the US alone, four women a day are killed by men, and every
18 seconds a woman is battered. I was sexually attacked by 2 older
boys when I was 10, and fought them off. I was raped by a stranger
with a gun (with a fucking gun!) when I was 21. These are things many
of my friends do not know about me, because I don't mention them much.
Every day, every woman is harrassed or catcalled or worse.  There is
no sense of freedom. We cannot walk alone at night, or even jog alone
in broad daylight!

DO NOT TELL ME I DO NOT KNOW WHAT OPPRESSION IS.  

Don't EVER fucking tell a woman she does not know what oppression is.


>>THAT, my friend, is why the US is disliked. THAT is the attitude which
>>is abhorrant to, for example, Sinead (and myself).  (That, to extrapolate
>>more, is what's wrong with the current setup of men > women; human > animal;
>>adult > children; white > minority,  where ">" is a power relationship.)
>>I hate you all
>>(not really)
>
>Please spare me with your UnitedStatesisfascistscum rant.  The fact that
>you can even voice your opinion is proof that you are tremendously wrong.

And Martin Luther King was not assassinated? (I'm no King - I'm not
saying I am... I'm simply giving a couter example to the "Oh The US is
abso-fucking-lutely fantastic because I can complain about how bad the
conditions are" argument.  Meanwhile the conditions *still* suck. And
being ablet to voice it is, of course, desirable, but it doesn't make
them suck any less.)

>Jack
>jis@panix.com

Elissa Feit (feit@cs.buffalo.edu // {rutgers,uunet}!cs.buffalo.edu!feit)
I can love my fellow man, but I'm damned if I love yours - Sisters of Mercy