HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.edpolyan
Date:         Sun, 13 Dec 1992 12:19:31 EST
              <EDPOLYAN@ASUACAD.BITNET>
From:         TJPUGH@SUVM.BITNET
Subject:      kozol

Quite a while back John Covaleskie referred to
Kozol's *Savage Inequalities* and asked how we
might address disparities in education offered
poor, and primarily minority, students.  A few
observations were offered by some of our Canadian
colleagues re differetn sorts of fundings. Perhaps
other suggestions of the sort were also offered, and
then we launched into a long discussion of morality
in education. The latter discussion is great, but
it has, as Craig Howley suggested some time ago,
been quite a diversion from the problem of inequality.
And I do assume no one is suggesting that the solution
to inequitable education is to send missionaries into
ghettoes.  So, I would like to go back to the
question of inequality.
  1) Are there inequities in American public
education?
  2) If so, are they justified? On what basis?
  3) Do any such inequities provide prima facie
evidence of injustice?
  4) What would justice look like?
  5) What would justice require?  And is it politically
feasible?
  6) So what?
--tom m-p
* * * * * * * * * * * *
Tom Mauhs-Pugh
Cultural Foundations of Education

259 Huntington Hall         TJPUGH@SUVM.BITNET
Syracuse University       TJPUGH@SUVM.ACS.SYR.EDU
Syracuse, New York
             13244        (315) 443-3343
From: Kevin@LEMOORE.ATI.COM
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.edpolyan
Subject: Re: Hats at School
Date: 14 Dec 92 22:12:57 GMT
              <EDPOLYAN@ASUACAD.BITNET>
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> very clear in her recent posting, the problem is not too much discussion,
> but a lack of discussion with students as central players.

I very much agree, Susan. In fact, during the past couple of years
I ran a complete court system in my classroom. Whenever there was
an issue or a problem, such as the hats issue, we would present it
in court with students taking sides. I was always amazed at the quality
of the debates and the solutions that came forth. In fact, many of
the discipline and student to student problems were solved quite effectively
in this manner.

I didn't mean to sound over critical in my last post. If it came out
that way, I apologize.

Enjoy and good luck!

************************************************************
* Kevin Kurtz                  |    Pamela Kurtz           *
* Lemoore Elementary School    |    Pamela@lemoore.ati.com *
* 100 Vine St.                 |                           *
* Lemoore, CA                  |     209-924-3479 School   *
* kevin@lemoore.ati.com        |     209-924-5975          *
************************************************************
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.edpolyan
Date:         Mon, 14 Dec 1992 15:28:00 EST
              <EDPOLYAN@ASUACAD.BITNET>
From:         "CHAD M. BARRETT" <BARRETT@ITHACA.BITNET>
Subject:      A slant on hats

To anyone who can answer -
     I must first of all admit that I have been deleting most of
my mail about the hat issue.  However, I am curious by those who
discuss the gang connection with hats.  Can any of you remember a
specific incident where a person's hat caused tension, or violence?
My high school war rural and I am very curious about these sorts
of things.

     Just as a side note to anyone who was interested.  I recently
visited my rural high school (Chittenango, NY; for those
interested).  The rule that they seemed to be enforcing was that
students could not wear hats during academic classes.  Otherwise,
no on seemed to mind.  There were a lot of hats around but most
students seemed to be grooved into taking them off at the beginning
of class.

     Thanks in advance to anyone who is willing to answer my
question.  I promise to be looking for it.

+----------------------------------------------------+
|\                                                   |\
| \                                                  | \
|  +----------------------------------------------------+
|  |  Chad Barrett       Major: Mathematics (7-12)      |
|  |  Ithaca College                                    |
|  |  Terrace 7A 110A    Phone: (607)256-8030           |
|  |  Ithaca, NY                                        |
+  |        14850-7207                                  |
 \ |                                                    |
  \|  E-mail: barrett@ithaca                            |
   +----------------------------------------------------+
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.edpolyan
Date:         Fri, 18 Dec 1992 16:40:55 EST
              <EDPOLYAN@ASUACAD.BITNET>
From:         Anne Pemberton <apembert@VDOE386.VAK12ED.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Inequities
              "JHDCI@fulton.crc.uno.edu" at Dec 16, 92 9:42 pm

Jack describe the inequities in two schools with new computer
labs. A similar thing happened in our school with the addition
of two new labs this year. The lab for the business dept was
done by Tandy; the one originally intended for the math dept
was done by an IBM clone distributor. The Tandy lab was working
before school began in Sept. The IBM lab was still in the boxes
delivered in July. In the days before school opened, the Tandy
technician held an all-day "drift-in" workshop to acquainte any
and all with the lab and it's potential benefits for teachers
and classes. The IBM distributor finally got everything ready
to go and did a similar workshop last week; of course to attend
teachers either need a sub for the day (and two teachers who
were supposed to get them couldn't because all available subs
were needed elsewhere), or could only come by during their
planning period. The Tandy folks talked with the business dept
people and what went into their lab was exactly what they
needed for their classes; that lab is used every period of the
day. The IBM lab was designed by the distributor, who
(undoubtedly) spoke confidently on what he *knew* we needed.
The IBM lab couldn't be used at all til right before
Thanksgiving, and has been really READY only since last week.
One math class comes in once or twice a week, I take in a few
Special Ed English classes and a study hall group in there a
few times a week. But that's all!
    The difference of course, and it may simply reflec what
Jack noticed in the two schools he observed: The lab which was
developed with the teachers of the department who would be
using it, was up and working and is being used as planned. The
lab which was developed *for* a department which was not yet
ready for a lab and didn't know what they wanted or needed, is
being underused. ((Actually, I'm working to refit it with stuff
to make it more useful to English/social studies classes
because I can't stand seeing all that money sit there unused!!)

    The most critical need is for teacher training. Businesses
typicall buy training along with new hardware and software.
Schools do not. Businesses provide the training during the work
day and at no cost to their employees. Schools do not.
Businesses purchase training specific to their needs; schools
hope that local colleges will provide generic courses to meet
the need.

     Well, this got to be a l-o-n-g two-cents worth. Hope I
made some useful points anyway.

      Anne Pemberton
      Nottoway High School
      Nottoway, VA

      apembert@vdoe386.vak12ed.edu
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.edpolyan
Date:         Mon, 14 Dec 1992 09:22:07 EST
              <EDPOLYAN@ASUACAD.BITNET>
From:         U56E3@WVNVM.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Secretary of Education

RE: 14,000 hours and the neutrality of schooling in loco parentis

Frank, I susupect that some of us would agree that schooling--as practiced--
is neither neutral on matters of religion, nor in a self-consciously pious
nation, can it ever be.  But you seem to suggest that the attempt to appear
religiously neutral (even in terms of avoiding sectarian favoritism) is not
worth the effort, that all "our" children ought to be schooled in some
pious world order (and not, for instance, in Wordsworth's "natural piety,"
but in some form of Christian piety).

Admittedly, I went to public schools in the 50s and 60s when prayer was common,
but my own kids (raised in a skeptical household) have been continually pro-
selytized in professedly neutral public schools.  They actually received more
responsible--and more intellectually honest--religious instruction in parochial
schools.

It distresses me when anyone avers that INCULCATION in ANY particular world-
view ought to be the aim of public OR private education.  To cultivate one's
judgment is hardly equivalent to making oneself over as god--whatever one's
stand on religious issues.  Catholic schools, for instance, many of them,
seem quite contentedly to seperate intellectual from spiritual nurture.
Brigham Young's letterhead says:  "The Glory of God is Intelligence."  Maybe
the Mormon god is a pragmatist.  So just which god does the state choose?
Which god do WE choose?  Or is "choice" not an issue when it comes to religious
practice?  (Jefferson, of course, was among those who thought we might
choose...)

CRAIG HOWLEY, ERIC/CRESS, P.O. BOX 1348, CHARLESTON, WV  25325
1-800/624-9120
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.edpolyan
Date:         Mon, 14 Dec 1992 17:36:25 EST
              <EDPOLYAN@ASUACAD.BITNET>
From:         "Emily C. Springfield" <k089784@HOBBES.KZOO.EDU>
Subject: RE: Hats

Peter--Excellent point.  I guess we took this out of the gang-related
 perspective. :-)
Emily
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Date:         Fri, 18 Dec 1992 15:35:58 -0700
              <EDPOLYAN@ASUACAD.BITNET>
From:         MATTHEWS_D@CUBLDR.COLORADO.EDU
Subject:      A Tale of Two Computer Labs

The story about the two computer labs is very interesting.  I'm sure Ann
is right about the level of user involvement being a factor in the
success of implementation.

Did you notice that the private school got nice Macs and laser printers,
while the public school got PC clones and dot matrix printers FOR THE
SAME MONEY?  I'd be willing to bet that this is a result of purchasing
regulations that the public school is saddled with and the private school
is not.  There are numerous little-known examples of public sector
laws and regulations that create gross inefficiencies.  For example, many
states require that all private contractors on school construction projects
pay minimum salaries set at the highest possible rate: that of union
contractors in the state's most costly community. In New Mexico, it was
estimated that this single provision added a minimum of 10% to the cost
of every public construction project.  That's 10% fewer classrooms, or 10%
fewer schools.

Public sector regulations in purchasing, personnel, budgeting, etc. are a
significant cost, frustrate management innovation, and cause lengthy delays.
I believe that this is an often-overlooked reason why privatization et. al.
promises improved efficiency and effectiveness.  It's not the level of
skill or commitment of the people involved, it's their working environment.

Dewayne Matthews
WICHE
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.edpolyan
Date:         Fri, 11 Dec 1992 16:52:00 EST
              <EDPOLYAN@ASUACAD.BITNET>
From:         Jack Letarte <JCLETARTE@TAYLORU.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Secretary of Education

Thnaks ofr your note, Al.  I had not heard about Shalala's appointment,
but had seen lots of speculation about her on the net.
        Love, Dad
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.edpolyan
Date:         Thu, 17 Dec 1992 10:13:27 EST
              <EDPOLYAN@ASUACAD.BITNET>
From:         U56E3@WVNVM.BITNET
Subject:      geographic zoning, inequities, taxes, and death (at early ages)

So much of schooling seems to be based on the concept of territorial
sovereignty, as a number of posts today have indicated.  One post noted that
cross-district comparisons pale in light of cross-national comparisons.

School districts are, however, peculiar sovereign entities--created and
annihilated at the behest of the state (i.e., the various 50).  The alleged
citizens of these peculiar sovereignties have no official voice in such
decisions, as case and statutory law indicate.  Aggrieved by a local board,
often acting in response to state initiatives, the only defense, seldom
successful, is that the action was capricious.

Exactly what, I wonder, are we preserving under the guise of now largely
fictitous "local autonomy"?  A cherished tradition of injustice?

CRAIG HOWLEY, ERIC/CRESS, P.O. BOX 1348, CHARLESTON, WV  25325
1-800/624-9120
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.scuba-l
Date:         Fri, 11 Dec 1992 15:40:44 EDT
From:         Diego Redondo <DRR100F@ODUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Deletion

Please remove my name from the mailing list... thanks.
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.scuba-l
Date:         Tue, 15 Dec 1992 12:35:34 EST
From:         "Hugh A. Huntzinger (CCAC-LAD)" <huntzing@PICA.ARMY.MIL>
Subject:      Re: Which one is Better?

Also...Mostly to Chris---

I have to agree with Net wisdom of prioritizing the individual instructor
over his certifying agency.  There's lots of anecdotal evidence to back
this up.  I would take it a step further and generalize to the dive
shop...there seems to be a similar anecdotal corrolation of 'sleazy'
instructors to 'sleasy' shops...today, I use my in-shop exposure to draw
conclusions (right or wrong, admittedly) on if I want to consider buying
instructional services there.

With Mag. Walter Ruppert's msg on course lengths, I recommend as long a
course as anyone will offer, spread out over as many weeks as possible.
A long, drawn out course will put the information solidly into long term
memory, versus 8-hr, 4 consective day courses which relies on short term
memory which will last long enough to pass the exam, but you'll probably
forget most of it before the week/month/year is out.  (BTW, this is why I
do not personally like resort certification courses).

Try checking your local colleges to see if they offer scuba as a Physical
Education course, which generally require a certain minimum number of
hours of instruction to qualify for college credits.  Sometimes the
college can be fussy about letting an 'outsider' in (some reserve their
scuba class for full-time undergraduates), but if you can get in, you'll
have a full semester of sessions.  I got 20+ hours of class time, 20+
hours of pool time, plus 5 OW dives with mine.

Care is still advised...my wife also took a college sponsered course and
had a bad experience/near call...she's still afraid of water to this day.
The agency has been recommended during this thread, but will go unnamed,
as it was clearly a bad instructor.  In addition to poorly monitored pool
sessions (where her accident occurred), the class *NEVER* saw a pressure
gage and *NEVER* saw a BC in any of their pool sessions.

Finally, find out what you're getting for the price.  One local shop runs
a holidays $99 special.  A friend tried it about a year ago, and I was
shocked at all the add-on costs he had...this price didn't include the
use of any scuba gear during the pool sessions!

While all of this sounds doom-&-gloom, don't let it intimidate or worry
you too much...this is mostly fretting over 1% possibilities.  You'll
avoid the 'bad' out there...hopefully, all of this bandwidth will help
you find one of the few 'great ones' that are out there too.

-Hugh
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.scuba-l
Date:         Mon, 14 Dec 1992 18:43:39 GVA
From:         Mario Guanziroli <L3EMULAT@LEPICS.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Which one is Better ?

>
>In your mail you write:
>
>> > Which is better PADI or NAUI????
>
>> Ever thought of BSAC??
>>
>> Cosma
>>
>
>or CMAS?
>
>=====>   Michael TIDF(CMAS) DM #5980796
>           CS System Group, Hebrew University, Jerusalem, Israel

--------------------

I think that CMAS, in spite of the name, is known by very few people
on the western side of the Atlantic Ocean.

On this side, however, CMAS is considered to be better than PADI.
I can't make any statement about the other agencies, which are
seldom heard about here in Europe.

                                 Mario

+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
|      Mario Guanziroli -------- c/o CERN - PPE Division              |
|                                CH - 1211 Geneva 23                  |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
|      Phone: +41 22 767.8114 |  Bitnet  : GUANZIRO@CERNVM            |
|      Fax  : +41 22 785.0129 |  Internet: GUANZIRO@cernvm.cern.ch    |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.scuba-l
Date:         Sun, 13 Dec 1992 14:35:40 CST
From:         Douglas Eder <C900@SIUEMUS.BITNET>
Subject:      Which one is Better?

Mostly to Chris---

Ok, who on the network is going to take on this question?

I suspect there are some individuals who, like buying Buicks or
Mercuries or Dodges, have a reasoned loyalty to a particular agency.
There are indeed some differences of philosophy between not only
PADI and NAUI but also SSI, IDEA, YMCA, and other agencies that
teach diving and produce plastic cards for air fills. Some differences
are overt: YMCA doesn't sell scuba equipment in commercial stores
whereas PADI and NAUI both do. Some observers see a potential
conflict of interest here; others don't.

There are other individuals who feel that the stronger loyalties
are those to a particular instructor. All certifying agencies can
point to really fine scuba instructors so there is no monopoly here.
And all agencies have their share of shysters and lazy bums; there's
no monopoly there, either.

My suggestion is to speak with divers who hold current certifications.
What dive school taught them? Did they feel comfortable during the
training? Were they given info on how to dive relaxed and, similarly,
how to handle some emergencies? Did they get the feeling that the
instructor was truly teaching...or merely creating new customers for
her/his store's products? Do divers who did NOT get trained by this
particular dive school respect the job they are doing? Do competing
stores/schools respect the school you are considering and its
proprietor(s)?

That's probably enough lines of e-mail for now. I'm sure other network
members will weigh in on this one. I hope so because I'd love to hear
how THEY solve this one...and help furnish a more complete response than
this one.
            ----Doug
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.scuba-l
Date:         Sat, 12 Dec 1992 23:20:50 PST
From:         Tim Chase <A3TC@PSUORVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Which one is Better?
              12 Dec 1992 19:26:37 PST from <CSPATGEN@AZ.INTEL.COM>

Well, I like PADI myself. I have looked at both written tests and PADI
seemed to me as being more of a "in the water" and thinking test rather
than the other you noted. I could care less on the written test to be
asked if you  should use soap and water or only water to wash your
wet suit.

Tim Chase Computer Operator Specialist and shark terrorist :)
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Subject: (no subject given)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.scuba-l
Date:         Tue, 15 Dec 1992 16:52:00 EST
From:         "Tony.Kuhlman" <ADP64@MSU.BITNET>

Alan H. Friedman, the Nabob of NED, please contact me.

Apologies to the rest of you.  I lost Alan's address.
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Date:         Tue, 15 Dec 1992 10:44:42 MET
From:         Walter Ruppert <waru@HP02.BOKU.AC.AT>
Subject:      Re: Which one is Better?

> ...
> There are other individuals who feel that the stronger loyalties
> are those to a particular instructor. All certifying agencies can
> point to really fine scuba instructors so there is no monopoly here.
> And all agencies have their share of shysters and lazy bums; there's
> no monopoly there, either.
>
> My suggestion is to speak with divers who hold current certifications.
> What dive school taught them? Did they feel comfortable during the
> training? Were they given info on how to dive relaxed and, similarly,
> how to handle some emergencies? Did they get the feeling that the
> instructor was truly teaching...or merely creating new customers for
> her/his store's products? Do divers who did NOT get trained by this
> particular dive school respect the job they are doing? Do competing
> stores/schools respect the school you are considering and its
> proprietor(s)?
>             ----Doug
>
I fully agree with your letter.
It mostly depends on the instructor, not on the organisation itself.
I've made open water and advanced courses with both (PADI and NAUI)
organisations. Because we do only have one teaching NAUI instructor
in Vienna (Austria) (compared to over 25 PADI instructors) there is
a great difference in level of teaching IN VIENNA (see below), but
you cannot generalize it. The program of both organisations is nearly
the same (other organisatins like CMAS are quite different in the
program). But here is a great difference what you will get:
e.g. Advanced Open Water Diver
                    PADI                      NAUI
price              3900AS                    3900AS     (=380$)
Theory (hours)        4                        40
Dives                 5                        8 O.W +1 Bath training

Again, ths evident difference seems only to occur in Austria.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mag. Walter RUPPERT, Center for Environment and Nature Protection, BOKU Vienna
Gregor-Mendelstr. 33      A-1180 Vienna   Tel.:  Austria-222-47654-436 or -442
E-Mail: private: <waru@mail.boku.ac.at>   UNIX, PC:    <waru@star1.boku.ac.at>
        GIS:     <waru@hp02.boku.ac.at>   other :-)    <waru@star2.boku.ac.at>
From: robs@CHARLES-CROSS.PLYMOUTH.AC.UK (Rob Simpson)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.scuba-l
Subject: The Bridge computer
Date: 16 Dec 92 11:25:25 GMT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Via: uk.ac.plymouth.charles-cross; Wed, 16 Dec 1992 11:28:23 +0000
Via: vision.cx.plym.ac.uk; Wed, 16 Dec 92 11:25:31 GMT

Does anyone know if they are putting out a metric (depth in metres) model of the
 Bridge? Also, are there any UK contact addresses, where I might be able to get
 some info from? Greg Ryan, where did you get your pamphlet from? Greg Dawe,
 since you seem to be on speaking terms with Randy Bohrer perhaps you might quiz
 him gently about UK release dates/costs/etc. Does anyone know the US cost??

Cheers,

Rob Simpson, Plymouth, England.
(752) 225885
robs@uk.ac.plym.cx
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