HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
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Date:         Mon, 17 Aug 1992 08:46:45 EDT
From:         Tom Powers <TPOWERS@UNIVSCVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Columbus Jewish?
              14 Aug 1992 14:05:00 EST from <ekfriedm@THAMA1.APGEA.ARMY.MIL>

     It seems to me that much of this discussion of when the Jews
were expelled from Spain turns on what part of Spain you're talking
about. Remember that different parts of what is now Spain came under
Christian control at different points throughout the Middle Ages.
Expulsions may have taken place from different places at different
times. 1492's general expulsion may have been "Spain's" first, but
remember that there was no such legal entity at "Spain" until 1492
anyway.
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Date:         Wed, 19 Aug 1992 07:49:17 PDT
From:         bob pasker <bob@HALFDOME.SF.CA.US>
Subject:      Dan Quayle, Wisdom of
Comments: To: well!rutvm1.BITNET!history@uunet.UU.NET

>It is a
> book called _Political Babble_ by David Olive: John Wiley, 1992.
> |Jim Emmons

there's another new one on the market like this called _The Power of
Babble_, written by a journalist.  i saw him on a cnn talk show a few
weeks ago.  although he abuses right & left equally in his book, in
person he would definitely be labeled with the "L" word.  the book
takes political sound bites and deconstructs their meanings.  i
thought it was interesting, but not worth buying for myself.

--
-- bob pasker
-- bob@halfdome.sf.ca.us
--
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Date:         Sat, 22 Aug 1992 12:41:07 CDT
From:         Don Mabry <djm1@RA.MSSTATE.EDU>
Subject:      blues
Comments: To: HISTORY@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu

	Robert Palmer, _Deep Blues_ is useful for the history of the
blues. There is a very large literature on the blues. A common theme
is how black musicians plagarized each other and anyone else they
happened to like.
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Date:         Fri, 21 Aug 1992 12:19:00 EDT
From:         DGPAZ@CLEMSON.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Of cabbages and kings....

On Fri, 21 Aug 1992 11:39:16 -0400 32WHEELER@CUA.BITNET said:
> the young Elvis ripped off the music of black artists                 st admit
t

Yes -- although  to call cultural borrowings "ripping off" may
not be quite right.

To my untrained ear, white gospel, black gospel, boogie woogie,
and rhythm & blues sound like variations in the same musical
family.

Denis Paz
dgpaz@clemson.bitnet
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Date:         Fri, 14 Aug 1992 15:13:00 EDT
From:         DGPAZ@CLEMSON.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Columbus Jewish?

On Thu, 13 Aug 1992 23:20:40 GMT tbeaudoin@VAX1.UMKC.EDU said:
>
> 	Well, it would add an ironic twist to those who argue that
> Christopher ("Christ-bearer") Columbus was consciously or subconsciously
> carrying the weight of the evangelistic Christian message to the New
> World.  Seems to me, in that sense, that the question of his Jewishness (ethni
c
> or religious) might be important or at least interesting to probe.

Whatever his family background may have been, Columbus was a
practicing late medieval Catholic Christian who accepted
evangelism as a part of his role. The story of Chris's family
might indeed be interesting, but it is highly unlikely that
he should be labeled Jewish because some ancestor of his was
Jewish.

Denis Paz
dgpaz@clemson.bitnet
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Date:         Fri, 21 Aug 1992 09:08:00 EDT
From:         DGPAZ@CLEMSON.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Of cabbages and kings....

On Fri, 21 Aug 1992 00:39:21 EDT Lenny Abbey <LABBEY@GTRI01.BITNET> said:
> I don't think that Elvis' family was representative of the working-class
> South.  The family was what we call "white trash."  More representative of
> share croppers.
>
> Lenny

Well, I didn't want to use the phrase first. But Lenny is correct.
The label "Grit" is perhaps more polite. "Buckra" is a black
term for same.

Denis Paz
dgpaz@clemson.bitnet
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Organization: Univ. of Louisville
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Date:         Thu, 20 Aug 1992 10:43:47 EDT
From:         Jim Cocks <JACOCK01@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU>
Subject:      Re: The 3B's
Comments: To: HISTORY%RUTVM1@RUTVM1.RUTGERS.EDU

>Why are these B's "the famous Three B's" - Of the three names,  only
>Boccherini rings a bell...

 Buxtehude is not commonly performed but he had an enormous influence
 on the young J.S.Bach who used to walk many mnay miles to hear him
 play.  And at least to my ear, Bach's organ works are the premier
 works on the instrument, you can have the rest of his output.  And
 if you listen to Buxtehude you can appreciate why Bach walked so
 many miles.

 So the three B's are Bach, Beethoven, Brahms, Bartok, and Brubeck eh!
 Brother Pasker is this a Quayle joke?

 I like Denis' the Bubba's Bach :-))

 Cheers,
  Jim Cocks
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Date:         Thu, 20 Aug 1992 08:56:00 EDT
From:         DGPAZ@CLEMSON.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Of cabbages and kings....

On Wed, 19 Aug 1992 22:30:04 -0400 Agnes Kruchio
<kruchio@EPAS.UTORONTO.CA> said:

> As in "Bubba" Haydn?

I didn't know that Haydn had bubbas. There are Bubbas Bach, I
think.

Denis Paz
dgpaz@clemson.bitnet
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Date:         Fri, 21 Aug 1992 14:55:33 GMT
From:         Martha Hildreth <marthah@EQUINOX.UNR.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Victorian attitudes toward the workplace
Comments: To: HISTORY@umrvmb.umr.edu
              Jul 20, 92 11:23 am

>
> I am trying to find a reference on the attitudes of the Victorians
> toward what might, for lack of a better word, be called industrial
> reform.  I am thinking of say, banning child labor, or regulating the
> safety of the workplace.
>                       Bill Sjostrom
>                       TA0WXS1@NIU

Dear Bill,
There is quite a bit of literature on this subject - a good starting
place would be two works by Gertrude Himmelfarb.
.
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Date:         Thu, 20 Aug 1992 23:47:37 CDT
From:         Lynn <LHNELSON@UKANVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Of cabbages and kings....

Ken;

Doesn't the canon Three G's also include Gluck and Gay?

Probably not the latter, but I mentioned him because the phenomenal
success of "The Beggar's Opera" brought both Gay and his producer, John
Rich (at least I _think_ his name was John) both fame and fortune,
making possible the excellent saying that "The Beggar's Opera" had made
Gay rich and Rich gay.

Lynn
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Date:         Tue, 18 Aug 1992 00:47:20 CDT
From:         LHNELSON --UKANVM <LHNELSON@UKANVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Columbus Jewish?

Various places have claimed Columbus as their own. Some years ago, a Catalan
historian assembled some impressively detailed data showing that Columbus'
father emigrated from Valencia to Genoa. Colom in Catalan means both dove and
pigeon, and the residents of Barcelona point to the birds that swirl around
the enchantingly ugly Columbus monument at the foot of the Ramblas, and say
"the birds know their own." This information bears no relevance to the
question, but is interesting, don't you think?

Anyway, given the relative number of people of different faiths converted, why
has no one suggested that Columbus' family might have been Muslim? It really
is more likely, if they were not, in fact, echte Spanische.

Lynn

Lynn_Nelson
Department of History
University of Kansas
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Date:         Thu, 20 Aug 1992 03:00:37 CDT
From:         LHNELSON --UKANVM <LHNELSON@UKANVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Columbus Jewish?

One of the problems for conversos was that, although they may have accepted
Christianity, there were other family members who had not. The conversos were
often torn between the requirements of kinship and the exclusivity of the two
faiths. Many of them regarded attendance at a briss, kadish, bar mitzvah and
the like as family traditions rather than religious rites. The various
Inquisitorial courts tended to overlook such things, because they also
understood the responsibilities of kinship. In fact, the most common sorts of
reports against possible judaizers were that they never ate pork, that they
had secretly had their children circumcised, that they never bought their
morning bread on Saturdays. In one case, the informer told the inquisitors
that his neighbor had always cast a spell over his wine while playing cards,
never got drunk, and therefore always won.

It turned out that the incantation in question was "Baruch atoh adonoi
eluheinu melech ho'onem ..." the Jewish prayer over wine. He was released
because he obviously wasn't cheating at cards.

It is instructive to follow the course of the Spanish Sephardic Jews after the
Expulsion. Many went to Portugal; some stayed and a surprisingly large number
returned to Spain after a couple of years. Others went to Morroco, where they
were eventually known for the excellence of their leather goods and book
binding. Still others went to Greece and established a thriving center of
Jewish culture around Thessalonika until the Nazis virtually destroyed it.
Others went from Portugal to the Netherlands, where they later played
important roles in the revolt of the Lowlands. They came to dominate the Dutch
diamond trade, and are still important gem traders, cutters, polishers, and
appraisers throughout the world. Some of the Portuguese Sephardi emigrated to
the religious tolerance of Rhode Island, where they played a significant role
in promoting colonial commerce and later in the independence movement.
Although Yiddish is well-know, few people pay much attention to the excellent
literature in the still-living Ladino, the Hebracized Spanish that the
expelled Sephardi took with them.

I offer this as a curious aspect of the Expulsion. The Sephardi became more
numerous and wealthy, and their culture became richer and more varied, than
would ever have been possible if they had remained simply a Spanish minority.

Lynn

Lynn_Nelson
Department of History
University of Kansas
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Date:         Fri, 21 Aug 1992 07:29:32 -0500
From:         mlove@UX1.CSO.UIUC.EDU
Subject:      Re: The B's knees (was "Cabbages..")
Comments: To: History <HISTORY@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>

>>
>> Bach (Johann Sebastian, Karl Philipp Emanuel, and Johann Christian) makes
>> three.
>
>How about Wilhelm Friedemann Bach? I make that four.
>
>Christopher

Of course, you could include the notorious P.D.Q., making five.

Sharon D. Michalove
Assistant to the Chair for Undergraduate Affairs
Department of History, UIUC
309 Gregory Hall, 810 South Wright Street
Urbana, IL  61801
 217-333-4145
mlove@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu

********************************************************
See the kitten on the wall/Sporting with the leaves that fall
Wht intenseness of desire/In her upward eye of fire!
        	       	       	       	William Wordsworth
********************************************************
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Date:         Fri, 14 Aug 1992 10:47:00 EDT
From:         "Glenn R. Greene" <U953117@RUTADMIN.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Columbus Jewish?

Hello,
  In the original posting on this topic, Columbus's ethnic conversion
to Christianity was described as occurring in his family during the
purge in Spain.  If I'm correct, and I may not be, I think the Spanish
"leave or convert" era was in the 12th or 13th century, whereas
Columbus was late 15th century.  Assuming three generations per
century this would place Columbus at least six generations away from
his family's conversion.  That's more than enough time to lose
any connection he might have felt to his heritage/faith.

                                                Glenn Greene
------------------------------TEXT-OF-YOUR-MAIL--------------------------------

> Christopher ("Christ-bearer") Columbus was consciously or subconsciously
> carrying the weight of the evangelistic Christian message to the New
> World.                                                                       i
c
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Date:         Fri, 21 Aug 1992 18:24:00 EDT
From:         DGPAZ@CLEMSON.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Of cabbages and kings....

Lenny,
A Grit is one who, among other things, eats grits, sometimes
with butter, salt, and pepper, sometimes fried, sometimes
cheese grits.
Denis Paz
dgpaz@clemson.bitnet
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Date:         Wed, 19 Aug 1992 02:08:28 EDT
From:         Lenny <LABBEY@GTRI01.BITNET>
Subject:      Of cabbages and kings....

There has been much hoopla in recent news reports about observances of
the anniversary of The King's death.  One observer eagerly suggested
that he should be made the first protestant saint.

Are historians to stand mute before this blow which fate has struck our
kind?  Are we to go uncrooned to our graves?  Unhounded?

Alas.

Lenny
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Date:         Fri, 21 Aug 1992 08:06:48 PDT
From:         Laurie Abbott <BL.LXA@RLG.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: The B's knees (was "Cabbages..")

REPLY TO 08/20/92 21:38 FROM HISTORY@RUTVM1.BITNET "History": Re: The B's knees
(was "Cabbages..")

you've all left out britten, bernstein, and boyles.


To:  HISTORY@RUTVM1.BITNET
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Date:         Wed, 19 Aug 1992 23:36:07 CDT
From:         LHNELSON --UKANVM <LHNELSON@UKANVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Of cabbages and kings....

Hello, Agnes;

I don't mean to embarass you in public, but BUBBA is a well-known acronym for
the famous "Three B's": Dietrich Buxtehude, Luigi Boccherini, and Ernest Ball.
:-)

Lynn

Lynn_Nelson
Department of History
University of Kansas
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Date:         Sat, 22 Aug 1992 13:15:31 EDT
From:         Cal <PRYLUCK@VM.TEMPLE.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Of cabbages and kings....
Comments: To: History <HISTORY%RUTVM1.BitNet@pucc.PRINCETON.EDU>
              22 Aug 1992 11:51:00 EST from
              <RATH%BRANDEIS.BitNet@pucc.PRINCETON.EDU>

On Sat, 22 Aug 1992 11:51:00 EST <RATH%BRANDEIS.BitNet@pucc.PRINCETON.EDU> said:
>"Crossroads" and "Love in vain," which have copyrights credited
>to Eric Clapton and Jagger/Richards, respectively.  Both are
>direct lifts of lyrics to Robert Johnson songs.  Robert got about 20 to 50
>bucks, half a buzz, and a night with a prostitute from his white
>recorders (Lomax?) and he knew he was getting a bum deal, but he also knew
>it was the best one going.  Lomax thought Robert was trying to take
>advantage of him.  Eric, Mick and Keith have all paid lip service to Mr.

I don't have the evidence close to hand but Rich's account sounds about right
for the elder Lomax.  He was not a particularly benevolent man with regard to
blacks.  The grossest example of his manipulation and exploitation (in the
literal sense, Lenny) of Huddie Ledbetter.  The singer always used his birth
name.  But "Leadbelly" was a more exploitable name, more in keeping with our
white expectations for a black singer's name.

Cal Pryluck                               <PRYLUCK@VM.TEMPLE.EDU>
Dept of Radio-Television-Film             <PRYLUCK@TEMPLEVM>
Temple University
Philadelphia, PA 19122                    voice (215) 247-9663
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Date:         Thu, 20 Aug 1992 12:02:00 EDT
From:         DGPAZ@CLEMSON.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Columbus Jewish?

Beginning around the middle of the 18th century, Sephardic
families moved from Italy to Britain, where many of them
became established in commerce, finance, and intellectual
endeavors. Perhaps the most well known of these families
was that of Isaac D'Israeli, the author of _Curiosities of
Literature_, a very popular work of literary compilation during
the early 19th century. His son, Benjamin Disraeli, needs
no identification.

Anglo-Jewry was primarily Sephardic in makeup until the
beginning of Ashkenazi immigration in the 1880s.

Denis Paz
dgpaz@clemson.bitnet
From: med@LINGUA.CLTR.UQ.OZ.AU (Marion Diamond)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Subject: Re: Enslaved Scots
Date: 20 Aug 92 01:37:36 GMT
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Comments: To: HISTORY%RUTVM1.BITNET@pucc.Princeton.EDU

Tom,
I don't know anything off hand about your enslaved Scots, but the 'sale'
makes some sense, although it is a highly charged term.  Unlike the
transportation of convicts to Australia, which was nearly always government
regulated, with convicts assigned to free settlers under government
control, the transportation to the American colonies was much less
regulated, and convicts were often handed over to private shipowners
whose distribution methods amounted to 'sale'.
There's quite a literature comparing the Australian and American transportation
systems - I'll dig it out.
Marion
med@lingua.cltr.uq.oz.au
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Date:         Thu, 20 Aug 1992 22:11:51 -0400
From:         Agnes Kruchio <kruchio@EPAS.UTORONTO.CA>
Subject:      The B's knees (was cabbages ...)
Comments: To: HISTORY@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu

> >
> > >From kruchio Thu Aug 20 08:11:54 1992
> > Subject: The B's knees (was "Cabbages..")
> > To: HISTORY@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu
> > Date: Thu, 20 Aug 92 8:11:54 EDT
> > In-Reply-To: <9208200714.AA15445@epas.utoronto.ca>; from "LHNELSON --UKANVM"
 at Aug 20, 92 2:11 am
> > X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11]
> >
> > >
> > > Hello, Bob and Agnes;
> > >
> > > I am shocked! Trying to say that The Three B's are Bach, Beethoven,
 Brahms,
> > > Bartok, and Brubeck when that makes at least eleven (or nine, depending on
 how
> > >  you look at it).
> >
> > Lynn - By my count, that's eight B's so far - your three and Bob's five.
> > The fact that he listed *five* B's and called them "three B's", plus
> > *your* "three B's" could conceivably be only be "six B's" at most.
> > Where does the eleven come from? Is this some sort of new math devised
> > especially by historians? Does it matter when these people lived and
> > where - maybe there was a  space/ time or calendar warp at that
> > particular place and time? Or do historians have their own peculiar
> > *method* of adding? (I've seen history books like that - dates
> > arranged by G-d knows what logic...)
> >
> > >
> > > Osborne is a weak reed to rest your case upon. Osborne doesn't list the
> > > great Albert von Tilzer either, but I would wager that the works of
> > > Ernest Ball and Albert von Tilzer have been performed more often than
> > > all of your eleven (or nine) "Three B's" put together.
> >
> > Lynn- I notice you STILL haven't enlightened us about the identity of the
> > other B's - these have not yet been fully revealed: the B's have been cut
 off
> > at the knees...Does that make it half a "B"? Half of "three B's?"...
> > So how many "B's" does *that* make the "three B's"? Do we kneed a
> > calculator for kneading the number of "B's"......?...
> >
> > Agnes
> >
> PS
> "Half a bee", I am told, "philosophically, must ipso facto not half be".
>  Ahem.
>
>
>
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Date:         Fri, 21 Aug 1992 14:38:01 EDT
From:         Lenny <LABBEY@GTRI01.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Of cabbages and kings....
              21 Aug 1992 09:08:00 EDT from <DGPAZ@CLEMSON.BITNET>

>Well, I didn't want to use the phrase first. But Lenny is correct.
>The label "Grit" is perhaps more polite.

No, no, Denis.  Grits (note spelling) is eaten with lots of butter
and maybe one grind of pepper.

Think I'll go make some now.


Lenny
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Date:         Fri, 21 Aug 1992 00:39:21 EDT
From:         Lenny Abbey <LABBEY@GTRI01.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Of cabbages and kings....
              20 Aug 1992 09:05:00 EDT from <DGPAZ@CLEMSON.BITNET>

I don't think that Elvis' family was representative of the working-class
South.  The family was what we call "white trash."  More representative of
share croppers.

Lenny
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Date:         Fri, 14 Aug 1992 14:05:00 EST
From:         ekfriedm@THAMA1.APGEA.ARMY.MIL
Subject: Re: Columbus Jewish?
Comments: To: U953117%RUTADMIN.BITNET@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu,
              HISTORY@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu

Glenn says:

.
.

>  In the original posting on this topic, Columbus's ethnic conversion
>to Christianity was described as occurring in his family during the
>purge in Spain.  If I'm correct, and I may not be, I think the
>Spanish "leave or convert" era was in the 12th or 13th century,
>whereas Columbus was late 15th century.  Assuming three
>generations per century this would place Columbus at least six
>generations away from his family's conversion.  That's more than
>enough time to lose any connection he might have felt to his
>heritage/faith.

.
.

     While the "convert or leave" message had been not-so-subtly
     conveyed to Spanish Jewry for some years, It did not acquire the
     force of law until 1492, the same year that Catholic forces
     completed their reconquest of Iberia.  So Columbus' ancestors, if
     in fact Jewish, would not have had to leave Spain much before
     1492.

     Eliot
     ekfriedm@thama1.apgea.army.mil
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Date:         Wed, 19 Aug 1992 12:54:55 CDT
From:         Don Mabry <djm1@RA.MSSTATE.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Of cabbages and kings....
Comments: To: HISTORY@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu

	I think that Elvis has been a "saint" for some people in the
world, but that he has long been a saint for white southerners is
stretching it quite a bit. Perhaps I am wrong. Would be interested
in seeing some data on this issue.
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Date:         Mon, 17 Aug 1992 08:51:13 EDT
From:         Tom Powers <TPOWERS@UNIVSCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Columbus Jewish?

     An article in LIBERTY in July/August of 1981 argued that Columbus
was not a practicing and committed Catholic divorced from and even
unaware of his presumed Jewish roots. In the article "The Enigma of
Cristobal Colon," Sidney J. Jacobs argues that Columbus may have been
very much aware of his Jewishness. He cites Columbus's scheduling of his sailin
g date to avoid a Jewish holiday, his ties to Jewish and Converso
associates and supporters, his practice of placing the Hebrew letters
BETH and HE (said to be an abbreviation for a traditional Hebrew
salutation "Praised be God") above the first word in each of his
letters to his son, and supposed cabalistic references in his
elaborate signature. Does anyone know this article, or is anyone aware of
this line of argument? It involves much more than the idea that some
of Columbus's ancestors may have been Jewish.
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