From: radzy@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU (Tim Radzykewycz)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: SEXES (was "something I just wanted to complain about")
Date: 28 Jul 92 22:16:24 GMT
Organization: International Computer Science Institute, Berkeley, CA, U.S.A.

pcorless@cisco.com (Peter Corless) said:
> > ..For my own part, I think that having distinctly masculine and feminine
> > ideals of beauty and sexuality are good*. However, the modern media

Lynne@hpnst.mayfield.hp.com (Lynne Radzykewycz) responded:
> Given that the current "female ideal" is such a distortion of natural shape,
> I find it harmful to myself and other women I know.  

> Rather than go into "I know a women who...", I'll use myself as an example.
> I have a hard time accepting my body as beautiful.  It sure doesn't fit 
> any of the images of women I see that are called beautiful by our society.  
> My figure is 36-29-40, and I'm still trying to lose weight to be happy 
> with myself.  Even though I try to tell myself that I don't have to 
> have 36-24-36 (oops, nowdays I think that it's 38-24-35) measurements to 
> have a beautiful body, I have real trouble in accepting it.  

The "female ideal" *IS* a distortion of natural shape, and it is
harmful to many/most of the women I know reasonably well.  My
sweetie is one of them.  I neither know, nor really care, who
causes it, but it's here and it'll be here for a long time.

BUT *I* DON'T SUBSCRIBE TO IT!  AND I'M SICK AND TIRED OF THE
NEAR *UNIVERSAL* ASSUMPTION THAT SINCE I'M A MAN I WANT THOSE
WIERDLY-SHAPED "FEMALE IDEAL" BODIES!

(Sorry about that, but every once in a while, I need to yell
about that.  I hope I didn't offend anyone too badly! -- if I
just called you "wierd" please take it as "unusual" and please
try to remove any negative connotations that are there.)

My poor sweetie is really good about keeping a balance about her
weight.  She manages to stay at a weight which is on the lighter
side of what I like, but that she feels reasonably good about
(though she does have some dis-satisfaction about not having the
"ideal body").  I hope that I help her feel better about what
she weighs, but after years and years of social pressure and
conditioning, it seems to be simply impossible to reject the
damned "female ideal" picture.

Well, *I* think she's beautiful, just the way she is.

She's also a belly dancer, and she gets her share of praise from
the audiences, but it doesn't really help her to reject the
"female ideal." She's trying to -- you should know that from the
fact that she posted, but it's so deeply ingrained, that it's
hard to reject it.

Well, belly dancing is a strange thing, though: many of the
arabic crowd like really sauftig women, so heavier women *are*
appreciated, but the american/european crowds are equally
important to restaurants and such, so thin women are still
usually preferred.  My sweetie is in the position where she's
(just barely) the right size for either type of audience, so she
doesn't get catcalls from the americans the way some of the
heavy dancers do, but she doesn't get as much appreciation from
either audience as she deserves!

Even though Lynne gets appreciation from her audiences, there's
still the undercurrents of the "ideal body" in belly dancing.
In some cases, it comes out as "She's got big boobs, so she can
dance here."  This was blatant enough at one of the restaurants
that it became a running joke among our dancer friends.
(Holding cupped hands waaaay out in front of the chest and
saying "She's a gooood dancer."  I wish I could convey the tone
better.  Sigh!)

> I would prefer to see a society where all different shapes of women were
> admired for their natural qualities:  slender women with small breasts
> admired for their sleekness, ample women with large breasts admired
> for their fullness, and us average sized ones admired because of
> our minds :-)   (just kidding - admired because we're "just right").

Well, Lynne is not only "just right" in terms of bust size (and
hip size, and waist size, and thigh size, and .....  yum!), but
she's also got one of the most wonderful minds I know of!

This *is* the heart of the matter, though.  People are different
-- they have different body shapes and different social
backgrounds and different types of hair and so on.  Trying to
force people onto one ideal, no matter *what* that ideal is,
will have nasty results.  Most women don't have the 38-24-35
body that society seems to treasure so much, and saying "This is
ideal" is harmful to that majority who don't.  It would also be
harmful if the ideal were exactly the "average" size for women
today!  What*ever* the "ideal" is, there will be some people who
don't fit that particular mold, and telling them that they are
ugly because of it is wrong!

And don't try to avoid blame by saying you never said they were
ugly.  They get the message, in spite of what you say with
words.  If you come up with that argument, you simply don't
understand what's happening, either to them or to yourself.

How many of you men out there have held yourself up to some
ideal, (ANY ideal) only to realize that, no matter *how* hard
you try and no matter *what* you do, you can never get there?
And you can only get sort-of close if you really work and
struggle continuously and really hard.  And after all that work,
you only get *sort-of* close!  *THAT*'s what this damned "female
ideal" image does to people!

> Thank goodness for supportive S.O.'s, huh Janis?

Blush!


Bear Blessings!

------------------------------------------------------------
					|  An it harm none,
	-- radzy			|  do as ye will.
					|
	Tim Omelan Radzykewycz     	|  "Just pray for a
	The Incredible Radical Cabbage	|  tough hide and a
					|  tender heart."
	radzy@cogsci.berkeley.edu       |    -- Ruth Graham
					|
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