HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: lriggins@afit.af.mil (L. Maurice Riggins)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Reloads
Date: 26 Aug 92 21:44:02 GMT
Organization: Air Force Institute of Technology

In article <9208251207.aa13128@sco1.qdeck.com> burge@qdeck.com (Bill Burge) writes:
|Here's one of the loads that the moderator was talking about (probably
|belong in Stupid Shooter Tricks).  A friend of a friend (don't you
|love it when they start this way?) was loading 7 RemMag and didn't verify
|that the powder measure was empty before adding H4831.  The last part
|of the Bullseye from his .45's was still in there and he loaded a couple
|of the Moderator's load.  Case full of Bullseye and a 165gr bullet.  He
|got lucky - the initial energy lifted his cheek from the stock.  The bolt
|took off the tip of his ear and didn't go right through his head.  It did
|blow through a cinderblock wall after shearing off the locking lugs.  He
|woke up in the hospital and is fine now (except for the tip of that right
|ear).

Dillon's got a good solution to this particular problem...
a separate powder measure on each toolhead!

-- 
Maurice               INTERNET:  lriggins@afit.af.mil
From: towle@vssteg.enet.dec.com (Clark Towle Gunsmith)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: S&W J Frames
Date: 26 Aug 92 13:30:33 GMT
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation


In article <1992Aug25.232205.5526@news.eng.convex.com>, cash@convex.com (Peter Cash) writes...
#In article <13400028@iftccu.boeing.com> bressler@iftccu.ca.boeing.com (Rick Bressler) writes:
# 
##/ iftccu:rec.guns / uunet.UU.NET@mimsy.boeing.com /  8:09 pm  Aug 22, 1992 /
###While perusing the S&W catalogs, I ran across an optional bobbed hammer
###called the NYPD*SP. Has anyone seen this hammer? How bobbed is it? can this
###be replaced by a RKI, or should I contact the factory? It's about 33 bucks.
# 
##It would probably be cheaper to simply have the 'smith bob YOUR hammer.
# 
#I wonder--would grinding the hammer down lighten it enough so that you
#might get misfires? I've thought of doing this myself, but have hesitated
#for that reason. 

 Removing the hammer spurr will not reduce the mass of the hammer enough 
to cause misfires.
From: jimf@iwtdr.att.com (James R Fehrenbacher)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: clay targets and throwing machines
Date: 26 Aug 92 13:30:10 GMT
Organization: AT&T


Anyone have any experience with those portable machines for throwing
clay targets? There are several different brands running around 30
to 40 bucks, sold at Walmart and sporting goods stores. Any recommendations
would be appreciated. Also, clay targets. I've bought the Remington's
sold at Walmart and half the time they break as the machine arm comes
around. Are Champions better? or some other brand? Thanks.
From: MARTYZ@IDUI1.CSRV.UIDAHO.EDU (Marty Zimmerman)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: What are some famous actor's guns
Date: 3 Sep 92 00:11:52 GMT
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway

Along with James Bond (and I agree, the Gardner books don't count),
don't forget Matt Helm: S & W 5-shot .38 special with aluminum
frame and 2-inch barrel.  The bad guys always seemed to carry a
Browning Hi-Power (9mm) or some kind of .380 if they needed
something smaller.  MH also stashed a Bauer .25 in his sleeve
or sock on occasion.

And I'm talking about the Matt Helm from the Donald Hamilton
books, not the bogus Dean Martin version from the movies.  I
think Hamilton actually wrote some books on firearms.  He seemed
to know what he was talking about.
From: vojak@icebucket.stortek.com (Bill Vojak)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Hollow Point Ammo & Police, Summary
Date: 1 Sep 92 20:33:16 GMT
Organization: Storage Technology Corp.


Last week or so, I requested info about the police using HP ammo
in places where civilians cannot.  Several people responded.
Thanks All!  And several people E-mailed asking for the results.
Here's the summary of what I found out:

-----------------------------------------------------------------

It is my understanding that police in Canada can use hollowpoints
in handguns.  Civilians cannot.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Although German police forces are not bound themselves by the
HP prohibition clause (which actually isn't within the arms law
itself, but within a by-law: Erste Verordnung zum Waffengesetz),
they only use FMJ factory ammunition. As you will know, within the
last decade, all German polices have changed over to 9mm Para.

That increased stopping power, of course. It also increased the
risk of hurting bystanders due to over-penetration. The main
problem, however, is the complete ineptitude of the 9mm Para to
stop and kill aggressive animals (rampaging livestock, dogs),
because about 90 % of all firearms use of the police is limited to
that purpose. Except for special weapons teams, German police don't
have shotguns either, only 9mm submachineguns.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

	Also apparently "not recommended" in Switzerland.

<  What I was wondering is: What do the Police
<  use in thes jursidictions?  

	In Europe generally, police seem to use FMJ's.
	Dumb, I know, but from what info I have been
	able to gather (including eyeballing the ammo
	on a cop's holster in Italy...) that's what they
	use.

	In New Jersey, they use HP's; the HP ban for civilians
	is "justified" by "For Police Use Only". Don't know about
	The Great White North.

<  Do they also follow the
<  NO HP law?  If not, couldn't someone force them to also
<  have to obey the NO HP law, or are there special exceptions?

	Force the cops to follow the law IN NEW JERSEY?
	Good luck.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Two data points on NJ:

1. The State Police use Remington 115 gr +P+ JHPs in their P7M8s. Friend
formerly on force.

2. Teaneck PD uses 158 gr LSWCHP +P .38 Spl in their Ruger .357s.

The law is written in NJ to exempt governmental agencies.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

                                Bill Vojak
                                Bill_Vojak@stortek.com
                                NRA, ILA, CFC

------------------------------------------------------------
The CBS Nightly Propaganda With Dan Rather. (RATHER NOT!)
------------------------------------------------------------
From: loki@acca.nmsu.edu
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Gunsite (American Pistol Institute) Address
Date: 27 Aug 92 00:38:26 GMT


Someone asked me for the address for the Gunsite school, but mail bounced.
Anyhow, this information might be of general interest to this group.

American Pistol Institute  (founded by Jeff Cooper)
PO Box 401
Paulden, AZ  86334
(602)636-1236
(602)636-1236 Fax

Info from a brocure received summer of 92.

--Dan

"Master... Master...                       (To The Tune of Metallica's)
	Master of Science is your degree.  ('Master of Puppets')
	You're too dumb for a PhD.              loki@acca.nmsu.edu
	Should have studied for the GRE!    dftaylor@cechem.colorado.edu
From: wwarf@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Wayne J. Warf)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Travelling help
Date: 26 Aug 92 13:30:13 GMT
Organization: Indiana University

In article <1992Aug16.024831.18320@dartvax.dartmouth.edu> jalden@coos.dartmouth.edu (Joshua M. Alden) writes:
#Hi!
#
#    I will, in the next week or so, be driving across the country.
#I'll be taking several firearms with me, including my carry gun.  I'll
#be travelling through several states and I need to know where it's legal
#to carry on my person, in the car, or just lock the carry gun away in a
#hard-case box away from the passenger compartment.  I have a concealed
#carry permit in my home states.
#
#    I'll be travelling through the following states (among others):  New
#York, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Missouri, Kansas, Colorado,
#Utah, Nevada, California.
#
#    Here's what I think I know.  I can carry in Indiana with my home
#state permit because Indiana and Michigan are the two states which honor
#other states' permits.  I can't carry on my person in any other state.
#
#    In which states can I have it accessible?  And in which states need
#I worry about local attitudes and just bury the damn things, however in
#the right I may be according to statute.

New York: carry according to the preceding recommendations about Calif.
Penna: ditto, must be inaccessible and out of passenger compartment
Ohio: sigh, same
Indiana: free state, can carry on home state license
Michigan: carry on home state license
Ill., Mo.:see NY <btw, don't get caught in Chi. or NYC>

I believe that Kansas and Utah allow no civilian carry except transporting
through the state, treat as NY and CA.

-- 
 +--------------------------------------------------------------------+
 | Wayne J. Warf -- WWARF@ucs.indiana.edu -- I speak for myself only  |
 |"Government is like fire, a dangerous servant and a fearful master" |
 +--------------------------------------------------------------------+
From: erudnick@pica.army.mil (FSAC-SID)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Non-lead bullets, some ponderings
Date: 31 Aug 92 17:10:00 GMT


To stray a bit, Eley produces shot shells with sintered tungsten shot.
If I recall correctly, tungsten is denser than lead, so by using powder
metal (sintered) of the appropriate bulk density they can match the
density of lead shot.

The ad copy reads "We know it's expensive, but when the alternative is
steel shot..." or words to that effect. $6 per box of 5.


Ed Rudnicki     erudnick@pica.army.mil     All disclaimers apply
Protect the Second Amendment - boycott Ruger products
"That's not true," Bill hissed to his lawyer. "The facts are-"
"Don't worry about facts, Bill, no one else here does. Facts can't
alter this case."       -"Bill the Galactic Hero" Harry Harrison
From: ke4zv!gary@gatech.edu (Gary Coffman)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: In Quest of Quiet ... what makes a quiet gun?
Date: 27 Aug 92 13:22:41 GMT
Organization: Gannett Technologies Group

In article <1992Aug22.000644.18959@michael.apple.com> ems@michael.apple.com (E. Michael Smith) writes:
#I'm hoping to find out what makes for a quiet 'report' from a gun.
#
#I have a desire for quiet shooting due to having some hearing loss
#already and not wanting to have more...  Right now I use ear plugs
#AND earmuffs, but still find things like .308 NATO from a TC 14" bbl
#to be enough to set my delicate ears to ringing ;-)
#
#How do I get more bang with less BANG! ??

Well if plugs and muffs still allow a .308  to ring your ears, new
plugs and muffs are in order. However, a .308 in a 14 inch barrel
is very loud. I shoot the 30 Herrett in a 14 inch barrel and it's
not bad with muffs alone. To get a powerful, yet moderately quiet
combo though, you're going to have to go to a locked breech rifle
with a 30 inch barrel. I once fired a .600 Nitro express double
rifle and it was much less painful on the ears, but not on the
shoulder, than my .375 H&H bolt gun. It had 30 inch barrels while
the bolt gun has a 22 inch barrel. The combination of large bore
size and long tube made it's report more of a thud than a crack.

I'd look for something like a 45-70 single shot in a Ruger No 1
action with as long a barrel as I could fit on it. Use a 200 grain
pistol slug and about 24 grains of 2400. That should make for 
a nice quiet rifle with enough energy to still be effective out
to 100 yards on deer sized animals. Kind of wimpy I know, but
better than a spitball.

Gary
From: viking@iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Why a sawed-off shotgun?
Date: 29 Aug 92 02:59:18 GMT
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames IA

fcrary%ocf.Berkeley.EDU@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (Frank Crary) writes:

##So I'm going to throw it out to rec.guns in general and ask if
##*anybody* has a reference to short-barreled shotguns used in the
##military.

#I have heard the from two people, that their grandfater claimed to have
#used one during the First World War. One specified that the weapon was
#not standard issue (e.g. his grandfather decided he needed a sawed-off
#shotgun, so he got his own.) This isn't a very good source, but...

	A better source might be the Germans themselves.  As I recall,
the Geneva Convention (which one?) shortly after World War I came up
with banning poison gas and also the shotgun.  I believe the Germans
referred to it as a "fright weapon" or something like that.  If there
exists records of testimony and perhaps minutes, that would be a good
place to start looking.

<Dan Sorenson, DoD #1066 |"There'll be angels on Ariels in leather>
<z1dan@exnet.iastate.edu | and chrome, Ridin' down from heaven    >
<viking@iastate.edu      | just to carry me home." -- R. Thompson >
< ISU thinks I need more education, which they provide for a fee. >
From: Thi_Huynh@univel.COM (Thi Huynh)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Beretta 92 problems
Date: 28 Aug 92 20:34:33 GMT

In article <9208271543.aa25512@sco1.qdeck.com> burge@qdeck.com (Bill Burge) writes:
#In article <9208261621.AA00704@nuc.Utah.univel.COM> Thi_Huynh@univel.COM (Thi Huynh) writes:
##It's hard to comment on range rental guns since any person can rent
##them and shoot his/her own "newly developed super hot" reloads.
##If I were to experiment with +P+ or hotter reloads, I would rather
##rent a gun to try it out first if I can find a range which rents
##guns.
##
#
#Every range that I have gone to requires that THIER ammo be used in
#rental guns for just this reason.

The ranges that I have been renting (including one in SF area) never
mentioned anything about using their own ammo.  They just asked me if
I needed ammo.

Even if they require it, you can still test out some of your favorite
handloads on the lanes.

-tt
From: minh@inst-sun1.jpl.nasa.gov (Minh Lang)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Travelling help
Date: 26 Aug 92 22:58:14 GMT
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory

In article <23032@hacgate.SCG.HAC.COM> Kemasa, kemasa@ghost.hac.com
writes:
#Under what grounds do they attempt this and what happens if you
#refuse?
#
#Just going into a gun range is not a crime and if they can not see
#any guns then they can not assume that you have one. It would be
#interesting to see what would happen if you went in with a large
#bag/case that did not have any guns and refused to let them take
#a look at it. When it was found out that there were no guns involved
#what would their excuse be?

In California, I don't think that they need any excuse for doing that (I
don't
know about other states). It happened so often that they busted into
innocent houses for drugs, searched and destroyed any possible
hidden place like bathtubs, TV sets etc... , found nothing and just left
after wishing you "have a nice day"!

#It sounds like a way to hassle the gun range. It would also be
interesting
#to get a fake rattlesnake and place it in the bag, although not a smart
#thing to do :-).

THis is a good idea :-) ...

  == Minh  ==

[MODERATOR:  I foresee this degerating shortly ... time to followup
to t.p.g. I think....]
From: se08+@andrew.cmu.edu (Seth Adam Eliot)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: PA gun laws
Date: 3 Sep 92 22:02:49 GMT

Does anybody have information on the handgun laws (buying, carrying,
using) in Pennsylvania.  All pertinent info would be appreciated.

Also, any shooters out there in the Western PA area (PGH)... do you have
any info on shooting ranges around here.


__________________________________________________________________________
"We... have no use for adventures.  Nasty disturbing uncomfortable
things!  Make you late for dinner!"  -- B. Baggins 

Seth Eliot,            Dept of Material Science and Engineering
                       Carnegie Mellon Univerity,   Pittsburgh, PA
ARPA    :eliot+@cmu.edu            --------------------------------------
   or    se08+@andrew.cmu.edu
Bitnet:  se08%andrew@cmccvb        
---------------------------------
From: bbx!bbxrbk!russ@unmvax.cs.unm.edu (Russ Kepler)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Bismuth and lead poisoning (was Re: Non-lead bullets, some ponderings)
Date: 29 Aug 92 02:59:24 GMT
Organization: /etc/organization

In article <1992Aug27.210853.2339@michael.apple.com> ems@michael.apple.com (E. Michael Smith) writes:
#Where can I get some Bismuth to try?  I presume the local scrap
#dealer won't have a lump of it, and that the local Science Shop
#will have it, but for $50/pound...  Where can I get some for
#more reasonable prices?

I don't know about bismuth, but wasn't it Pope that tried casting up
gold bullets to see how they did?  Not better than lead, but he had
the Lone Ranger beat all to heck!

#BTW, I think I may have had a slight acute lead toxicity episode...
#I was trying my first lead casting with an electric bottom pour
#pot and think I had it too hot (got some yellow powder forming
#on the top).  The next day I had some diarrhea, mild headache,
#sinus discomfort, and generally felt odd/lousy for a couple of days.
#
#What was the yellow powder, lead oxide?  Why did it form?

Probably not - it was more likely tin oxide - the tin burns off well
before the lead does.  Next time try fluxing it back in - Marvelux
from Brownell's works well, and a 1 pound can will last a couple of
lifetimes.

#Does this sound like acute lead poisoning to you?  (It matched
#about 1/2 or less the symtoms in my medical encyclopedea, so
#I think it was a mild exposure... ergo no visit to the Doc...)

Lead poisioning take quite a bit longer to develop and lasts a good
bit longer.  I suspect that you had a touch of a flu or something -
I've had more significant exposures for longer times with no ill
effects.

The thing that you need to avoid is ingestion of biologically active
lead compounds such as lead acetate, etc.  This makes the Foul Out
solutions particuarly dangerous as the lead out solution has a a major
component lead acetate.  lead acetate is also formed when lead is
combined with acetic acid, better known in your house as vinegar.

A book of collected articles from the _American Rifleman_ magazine
collected into a book called _Cast Bullets_ has a couple of articles
on lead poisioning, and it appears that (in adults, at least) it takes
considerable exposure to casting to get to the toxicity stage.  2
mentions are made, one of a commercial caster and another of a caster
close to that stage in a unventilated room.

-- 
.signature: not found.  Create?
From: mccon@ssdd475a.erim.org (Joe McConnell)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Stupid shooter tricks
Date: 2 Sep 92 19:05:15 GMT
Organization: Environmental Research Institute of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan

re: Stens firing from a shock to the butt

This is actually a common flaw among blow-back submachine guns.  That is,
firing once -- not necessarily going full-auto.  What happens is that the
heavy bolt, whose mass, coupled with the return springs, is all that holds
the chamber closed, is moving backwards with the rest of the gun as it
gets dropped or slammed or whatever.  When the gun comes to rest, the bolt
continues backwards for some part of its travel, and if that distance is
enough to clear the top of the magazine, it will then strip off a cartridge
chamber it, and -- possibly -- fire it.
--
Joe McConnell  | Opinions expressed are the   | Don't blame me!  I voted for
mccon@erim.org | author's, not the employer's.| Stephen Maturin!
From: jgd@dixie.com (John De Armond)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Is a pocket gun really a pocket gun?
Date: 4 Sep 92 02:33:28 GMT
Organization: Dixie Communications Public Access.  The Mouth of the South.

n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio) writes:

#jgd@dixie.com (John De Armond) writes:

##In my case, "pocket  carry" is just that, one of the front pockets in
##my trousers.  If the .22 mag is accepted as a defense round (it is for
##me), then the North American Arms 5 shot pocket revolver is just the

#What kind of vel can you get out a 22 mag with one of those short
#barreled things?   I would go for the heaviest JHP I could find
#for that use.  I've seen 50 gr, I don't know about 55 gr.

I've never chrono'd the thing.  Guess I should. I just never got anxious
over the performance considering that if it ever got fired in anger
it would probably be stuck in the perp's gut.  That's cuz I'm runnin' if
I can.

#Would the .22 mag be appreciably better than .22 LR stingers out
#of the same size gun?

Oh yes.  The thing that opened my eyes (other than shooting it, of course),
was when I was attending what passed for a PO-lice "accademy" (just to 
get the pronunciation right) and the instructor demonstrated a 22 mag
penetrating the dept's ballistic vest when fired from A Ruger Single six
(6 inch barrel.)  I don't recall the protection ratings of the vests,
probably at the bottom, knowing that dept, but the point was made.
Now the NAA .22 mag only has about an inch of barrel but the bullet
will still penetrate several pine planks - my only test to date.

The NAA is a real handful.  My wife does not like shooting it even though
my .45ACP and even a friend's .44 mag doesn't bother her.  The .22 mag
IMHO is the most underrated cartridge going right now.

John


-- 
John De Armond, WD4OQC               |Interested in high performance mobility?  
Performance Engineering Magazine (TM) |
Marietta, Ga                         |Interested in high tech and computers? 
jgd@dixie.com                        |Write me about PE Magazine
Need Usenet public Access in Atlanta?  Write Me for info on Dixie.com.
From: cash@convex.com (Peter Cash)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Opinions sought on Ruger Mini 14/30
Date: 31 Aug 92 12:56:39 GMT
Organization: The Instrumentality

In article <11933@optilink.UUCP> cramer@optilink.com (Clayton Cramer) writes:
#
#In article <1992Aug26.133500.25522@samba.oit.unc.edu>, Bob.Smith@lambada.oit.unc.edu (Bob Smith) writes:
## Well having just found this group today, and currently looking for
## a new semi-assult / home defense rifle (Am I influenced by the current
...
#People I know that bought a Mini-14, and had a chance to shoot an
#AR-15, usually regret buying the Mini-14.  They are not as accurate
#as the AR-15s, and they aren't designed for the sort of continuous
#use that you might experience in the collapse of civilization (which
#seems to be coming).

I have shot both. Given a choice, I would indeed rather have the AR-15.
However, I couldn't afford an AR-15, so I bought a Mini-14, and am happy
with it. It's reasonably accurate out to 100 yards, and very reliable.
There are lots of after-market accessories for it, and it's a fun gun to
shoot. It's light, and short--characteristics that make for good handling
in tight places. For the money, it's a very good rifle. 

The main drawback of the Mini-14 is that the thin barrel gets quite hot
after a few rounds. This has a deleterious effect on consistency of shot
placement--the groups tend to wander as the barrel heats up. As Clayton
says, you might be at something of a disadvantage if you had to use this
gun in a prolonged firefight. I think that these characteristics explain
why quite a few police organizations but no armies have used this gun--it's
ok for the relatively light use required of a police weapon, but it's not
suitable as a battle rifle.

Still, I don't feel that I need a battle rifle, and I don't feel
under-armed with the Mini-14. Maybe someday when I'm rich, I'll trade up to
an AR-15.  ...  

#The SKS is about 1/4 the cost of a Mini-30, fires the same ammunition, 
#and is accurate enough for any sort of home defense use. Besides, at 
#that cost, you buy two of them, and have a spare available if the 
#first one is damaged.

The SKS is indeed very rugged, and is indeed a real battle rifle. I don't
think its handling characteristics are as ergonomic as the Mini-14, though.
Somehow, the SKS and the AK-47 just don't feel like real rifles to
me...irrational, I know. If I can't have an AR-15, I'll stick to my
Mini-14. 
-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
             |      Die Welt ist alles, was Zerfall ist.     |
Peter Cash   |       (apologies to Ludwig Wittgenstein)      |cash@convex.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~