HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: RRUBERT@CISNCC.intel.com
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Introducing New Shooters to the Sport (Part II)
Date: 12 Nov 92 14:55:53 GMT



hollombe@polymath.tti.com (The Polymath) writes:

#  The NRA teaches the top three as:
#
#1.  Always keep the gun pointed in a safe direction.
#2.  Always keep your finger off the trigger until ready to shoot.
#3.  Always keep the gun unloaded and action open until ready to use.

#(1) Is considered "The Golden Rule."  It'll save you grief even if you
#forget everything else.


I am sorry to see the NRA's wording for rule three. The wording I have
always used is "Always consider every firearm loaded". The NRA wording
implies to me that I should carry my Redhawk with chambers empty and
cylinder open, I don't. I would hate to see NRA safety rules used in a 
court of law to prove I was careless.


		Rod Rubert 

[MODERATOR: When we teach the NRA basic firearm safety courses, we usually
emphasize that the key word is "use" (as in "ready for use").  This state
is interpreted differently depending upon the application, e.g., few people
(except boneheadlegislators in MD) advocate keeping a personal protection
firearm locked up and unloaded .... that is not how it is "used".  The same
is true for hunting.  In the field, you are not always firing, but your
firearm is in "use" the whole while.]
From: mtxinu!sybase!joe@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (Joseph Weinstein)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Why are there no reliable semi-auto shotguns?
Date: 6 Nov 92 20:01:41 GMT
Article-I.D.: sybase.25499
Organization: Sybase, Inc.


This is the idle curiosity of a fringe gun fan but
committed home-defender:

Why are there no highly reliable semi-auto shotguns
for defence?

I would like a defence-oriented 12-guage shotgun
that I can just pick up and have it go boom-boom-boom
while I keep pulling the trigger. The action and feeding
mechanism could be like a Glock, or it could even be a
cylinder like a double action revolver. Am I alone in
my sence of the slow, dangerous inconvenience of having
to jack the slide between aimed shots?

--
Joseph Weinstein  Sybase - 1650 65th Street, Emeryville Ca 94608
		  joe@sybase.com   sun!sybase!joe   510-596-3620
Disclaimer:	  Opinion, I disclaim thee, I disclaim thee, I
                  disclaim thee!
From: Sproul@sproul.sproul.com (Mark Sproul)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: AR15 Assembly by NESARD
Date: 12 Nov 92 20:23:36 GMT
Organization: Sproul Consulting



In article <9211102101.AA115260@apix.psu.edu> (rec.guns), CLF@ECLX.PSU.EDU (Christopher L Frame) writes:
# 
# 
# 	Anyone know if NESARD sells their AR15 kit with the barrel
# attached and properly headspaced to the upper receiver?  If they don't
# how difficult is it to properly headspace the AR15 kit?
# 
# Christopher Frame CLF@ECLX.PSU.EDU
# 
The head space has nothing to do with the attachment to the upper
receiver.  It is all in the "barrel extension" which has the locking
lugs on it.  98% of all of the AR-15 barrels sold already have this
installed.  90% of the time it will head space correctly with your
rifle.  If it does not, the only alternative is to find a different
bolt (not the bolt carrier, just the bolt) that does fit.  I have
not found any of this ever to be a problem and even COLTs HBARs, the
NO-GO gauge fits.  Therefore, most of them are head spaced a little
on the long side.

-----------------------------------------------------
Mark Sproul - KB2ICI - New Jersey
sproul@sproul.com
From: rtaraz@bigwpi.WPI.EDU (Ramin Taraz)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Bad tactical position ( was Psychology in Defense)
Date: 11 Nov 92 20:52:30 GMT
Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute, Worcester, MA 01609-2280

#>>>> On 10 Nov 92 15:06:23 GMT, ems@michael.apple.com (E. Michael Smith) said:

ems> In article <lairdb.721277485@crash.cts.com> lairdb@crash.cts.com
ems> writes:


ems> training excercise for police.  The setup for the film was that
ems> an armed and dangerous person call was recieved.  White male, mid
ems> 20's, long hair, near the RR tracks.  You cut to the scene of
ems> someone more or less fitting that description coming toward you
ems> accross the tracks.  The question is: When do you shoot him?
ems> While he keeps comming 'you' (the cop in the film...) order him
ems> to stop.  To stop and lay down.  He reaches behind his back into
ems> a back pocket.  You shout again for him to STOP AND PUT HIS HANDS
ems> UP!.  (At this point about 75% of the class has said 'bang', the
ems> signal that they would shoot at that point...).

ems> Well, the 'perp' (at about 5 ft 'range' from you) whips out a
ems> card from his back pocket which states: "Please forgive me, I am
ems> deaf and cannot understand what you are saying.  Can you write it
ems> down please?".

ems> BTW, about 99.9% of the class had said 'bang' by the time the
ems> hand started comming up fast from behind the back ...

ems> Right after that a radio call comes in that the A&D was just
ems> apprehended about 1 mile from you ...

ems> I've never seen such a humbled group of people in my life ...

I got a chill going down my back bone after reading this story.
What would you DO if you shot this poor fellow and then saw his card?
From: ehorne@zeus.calpoly.edu (Eric T Horne)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Chinese 7.62 x39 Rounds
Date: 13 Nov 92 04:10:41 GMT
Organization: California Polytechnic State University, San Luis Obispo

In article <1992Nov11.004618.12042@bbxrbk> bbx!bbxrbk!russ@unmvax.cs.unm.edu (Russ Kepler) writes:
##attracted to a magnet.  Head stamp 9121 over 73. Claimed non-corrosive.
#                                                  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
#.....
##Guess I'll have one 'sacraficial round' from each case I buy ... just
##so I know what I'm shooting ...
#
#For the reason underlined above you might want to sacrifice a single
#round anyway.  Pull the bullet, dump the powder and fire the case with
#primer at a degreased steel plate.  If the plate shows rust after a
#few days in a humid environment then the primer was corrosive.

Ive asked this before, but got no response.. 

What exactly is the difference between corrosive and non-corrosive ammo?
And why would someone use one over the other?

Thanks
-Eric
From: kdlin@advtech.uswest.com (David Lin)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Colt Sporter mags
Date: 12 Nov 92 14:56:49 GMT
Organization: U S WEST Advanced Technologies

In article <9211111515.aa29400@s.s.ms.uky.edu> eric@ms.uky.edu (Eric H. Herrin II) writes:
#Well, I just picked up a Colt Sporter Competition HBAR for a great price, but
#the two mags it came with are 5 round (20 round with a filler).  Anybody
#have any recommendations about where to pick up some 20rd+ mags?  I'm not
#looking for junk; I'd prefer a very well-made 3rd party or original colt.

Please post the response you receive.

I use a 30rd mag. made by THERMOLD. Even though it is made of plastic,
it appears to be fairly well made. It is more expensive than other
mags that I've seen; I paid $16 for it. I was told that the Canadian
military uses it as their standard M16 mags. I've shot 100 rounds using
this particular mag. and didn't have any problems with it.
Anyone has experiences with this THERMOLD mag too?

David
-- 
 K. David Lin, Ph.D.              | E-mail: kdlin@advtech.uswest.com  
 Communication Services Research  | Defend your life with style! -- Beretta
 U S WEST Advanced Technologies   | Disclaimer: Only personal opinions
From: jheath@fieldofdreams.npirs.purdue.edu (Jim Heath)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Glock (& lock)
Date: 11 Nov 92 20:51:09 GMT
Organization: Center for Environmental and Regulatory Information Systems, Purdue University

#From article <1992Nov10.062755.13526@henson.cc.wwu.edu>, by n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio):
# fcrary@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (Frank Crary) writes:
# 
# #Actually, the recoil supprised me: It felt greater than that
# #of my .357. I suspect this is a factor of the gun's light weight...
# 
# 
# ???   I've shot the Glock .45, 10mm, & compact .40s and 9mms.  I
# was shocked at how mild the recoil was.   Ditto for my girlfriend.
# 
# [MODERATOR:  No, folks, we *won't* try to reparse that sentence
# sentence structure ... ]

I found the 23 (small .40) a bit hard to hold onto.  I have shot
a 10mm and found it quite controllable though.  I have recently
bought a 19 (?small 9mm), but haven't had time to try it.
-- 
"Land of song, said the warrior bard,           Jim Heath
Though all the world betrays thee.
One sword, at least, thy rights shall guard, (The Minstrel Boy)
One faithful harp will praise thee."         (Thomas Moore)
From: n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: fun things to shoot at
Date: 7 Nov 92 16:06:24 GMT
Organization: Western Washington University

miles@ms.uky.edu (Stephen D. Grant) writes:

#Those small propane tanks are nice. Merely place a
#road flare appx. 6" from it, go about 50 yards (minimum) away,
#and kablam! :)

How about a can of Prestone starter fluid? 

(consists of Ether, the Ethyl or Petroleum variety, I can't remember)

Do this in the desert, and use a scoped rifle.


# *** WARNING, DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME KIDS ***
# I am not responsible, blah blah blah etc etc etc, 

Ditto.

JD
From: lairdb@crash.cts.com
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Bad tactical position ( was Psychology in Defense)
Date: 9 Nov 92 14:27:08 GMT
Organization: "Well, a head on top, an arm on each side, two legs...."

In <01GQV8AW7S5W0046A8@VAX1.Mankato.MSUS.EDU> anthrax@vax1.mankato.msus.edu writes:
#In article <viking.721119254@vincent1.iastate.edu>, viking@iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson) writes:
## 
## I hadn't really thought about it before, but what is possibly the best
## poor tactical position to put somebody in, and just how would you enforce
## your wishes?  Personally, I like the idea of spread eagle, on the ground,
## face in the dirt for a perp, but what if he doesn't obey?  I can't shoot
## the guy then, and there's no other option open to me.  If I'm holding
## a gun on a guy, I can't adjust his attitude with a club.  I've given
## myself only one option, basically.

#The current position that is being taught to law enforcement as the safest
#way to position suspects is the "prone position".  We have the subject lay on
#the ground with his head turned away from the officer.  The subjects arms are
#to be extended all the way out from the body with the palms facing up.  The
#legs are to be spread as wide out as possible.  (Another school of thought has
#the suspect crossing his/her ankles).

No disagreement, but I think the more interesting question is the one Dan
brings up next: what if the subject refuses?  Assume he makes no otherwise 
"threatening" moves for the moment, just stands there.  Could Joe Civilian
(remember, we're focussing on the civilian response) interpret refusal-to-
obey as a threatening response in-and-of-itself?  If the answer is "no", 
formulate and defend an appropriate response.  If the answer is "yes", 
discuss the civilian's liability exposure, and appropriate "story".

(Not specifically to you, Eric, even if I did phrase it as an exam
question.  :-)  Anybody, feel free to chime in.)


 ; personally (opinion formed through simulations) I favor
the legs-apart style: IMO, visually-psychologically you have a tad more 
warning as the subject begins to move.
-- 
Laird P. Broadfield     lairdb@crash.cts.com    ...{ucsd, nosc}!crash!lairdb
Hi!  I'm a shareware signature!  Send $5 if you use me, send $10 for manual!
From: wwarf@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Wayne J. Warf)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Class III again
Date: 6 Nov 92 14:24:34 GMT
Organization: Indiana University

In article <199211052042.AA29205@cherokee.advtech.uswest.com> kdlin@advtech.uswest.com (David Lin) writes:
#Thanks all who responded to my post.
#
#In article <7898@transfer.stratus.com> tarl@lectroid.sw.stratus.com (Tarl Neustaedter) writes:
##
##In article <199211041808.AA07031@cherokee.advtech.uswest.com>, kdlin@advtech.uswest.com (David Lin) writes:
### 
### My question is that can I pay the $200 federal tax to the BATF and 
### get a permit to convert my rifle into a full auto or select fire one?
### If not, are there any legal ways to do that? Thanks.
##
##Only if you also purchase an already-registered auto-sear. The 1986 changes
##to the Title II weapons law prohibit new machineguns in civilian hands.
#
#How much does an already-registered auto-sear cost? I would imagine
#it will be hundreds, if not thousands, times higher than the auto-sear
#cost itself. Two more questions follow:
#
#(1) If I empty my checking account to purchase an already-register auto-sear
#    and go through all the legal processes to transer the title ( is this
#    the correct term? ) to me, will I have to pay such a high premium again to
#    purchase a new one after the old auto-sear breaks?

Yes, the sear is the firearm that is NFA serial numbered if it is the
registered part. If you want full auto then buy a receiver numbered 
weapon which you can buy all the unregistered sears you want for
<as replacement parts only>.

#(2) Am I expected to receive lots of trouble from the law enforcement people?
#    Will my name appear in some sort of list? Is the rock-'n-roll fun worth 
#    the troubles?

-- 
 +--------------------------------------------------------------------+
 | Wayne J. Warf -- WWARF@ucs.indiana.edu -- I speak for myself only  |
 | Midterm Countdown-Bill and the Congress have to '94 to screw it up |
 +--------------------------------------------------------------------+
From: anthrax@vax1.mankato.msus.edu
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Psychology in Defense
Date: 8 Nov 92 13:26:09 GMT
Organization: Mankato State University

In article <9211061036.aa28827@sco1.qdeck.com>, burge@qdeck.com (Bill Burge) writes:
# In article <1992Nov5.004254.3842@ke4zv.uucp> ke4zv!gary@gatech.edu (Gary Coffman) writes:
# #I know people who swear by nickel, chrome, or polished stainless
# #guns. They claim they look bigger and meaner from the business
# #end. Others like the current fad for matte black guns. I don't
# #know, but I don't want the muzzle of any gun pointed at me. I'll
# #admit that the larger the bore, the quicker I duck for cover.
# #
# 
# A friend of mine, who is a cop, stated that his firends (cops) fell
# into two catagories.  THis determined the finish of the weapon that
# they carried; shiney or black.
# 
# 1)  THose who, when they pulled their gun, wanted _noone_ to know it
# 
# 		BLACK
# 
# 2) Those who, when they pulled their gun, wanted EVERYONE to know it
# 
# 		Stainless, Hard Chrome, etc

I've noticed that also with the officers I associated with.  The officers who
prefer the blued weapons normally have the reasoning that "I'd rather not be
carrying a shiny piece of metal during a building search".  The other officers
go the opposite way, "The stainless weapon looks damn impressive especially
with our dark blue uniforms".
 
I'm a big stainless fan myself and have selected the Stainless 92FS as my duty
weapon for the agency I intend to work for (If I can survive the testing
process *shudder*) because I have noticed on my friend's blued weapons that
they get a lot of wear and tear even when they are in the holster.  The
officers normally end up banging the exposed part of the weapon on walls,
fences, etc. during the course of their shift and it starts to show after a
while.
 
I also like the pyschological impact of the stainless weapon and I'm not as
concerned with the weapon being "shiny" because it has a matte finish. 

# 
# Bill	burge@qdeck.com
# 
# 		(owner of Black guns)
# 

Eric "Stainless Boy" Huber
Mankato State University
Law Enforcement Program
From: cash@convex.com (Peter Cash)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Mini 14 fires when not in battery
Date: 11 Nov 92 15:49:15 GMT
Organization: The Instrumentality

In article <1992Nov10.222552.13987@news.eng.convex.com> cash@convex.com (Peter Cash) writes:
#Is the Mini 14 supposed to be capable of firing when the bolt is not fully
#closed? If so, isn't this unsafe? (If the bolt were to fail to close, but
#the cartridge is in line so the firing pin hits the primer, the unsupported
#case might rupture.)

I was advised via email that just because the gun goes "click" doesn't
meant that it would fire--the firing pin may be blocked unless the bolt is
fully closed. Sure enough, when I tried holding open the bolt a bit and
squeezing the trigger, the hammer dropped--but the firing pin didn't emerge
from the bolt face. So I guess my Mini is safe after all...


-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
             |      Die Welt ist alles, was Zerfall ist.     |
Peter Cash   |       (apologies to Ludwig Wittgenstein)      |cash@convex.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: KEVIN@MSUS1.MSUS.EDU (Kevin Whyte)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Laser Sights - The State of the Art
Date: 12 Nov 92 20:24:29 GMT

#In article <sZJZTB1w164w@upchrch.UUCP> upchrch!joel@peora.sdc.ccur.com (Joel Upchurch  ) writes:
##
##I thought about using a trigger mechanism like you describe. The problem
##is that it violates a basic rule of gun safety by forcing you to put
##your finger on the trigger before you are ready to shoot.

There is an add in the current Guns & Ammo that shows a new laser sight for the
glock.  The battery pack is placed inside the pistol grip behind the magazine
well.  The laser itself is mounted to the front of the trigger guard and looks
to be about the size of a pinkie finger to the first joint.  (Best description
I could think of!)  The on/off switch for the laser is mounted on the front of
the pistol grip.  This seems like a pretty ingenius laser sight.  The only
thing I am curious about is how you adjust the sucker to sight it in.

============================================================================
Kevin Whyte						kevin@msus1.msus.edu
	**Representing and speaking for no one but myself.**
"Still, the best augers are those who divine from the portents of the past. 
They compile phenomenal records." Croaker "The Black Company" by Glen Cook
From: fist@iscp.Bellcore.COM (Richard Pierson)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Colt Sporter mags
Date: 12 Nov 92 20:24:33 GMT
Organization: Bell Communications Research (Bellcore)

The Guard issued plastic mags one year during a "calfex",
we turned them back in at the ammo point and have not seen
them since then, all our current mags are metal. The 8 I got
were a big PIA and my 16 did not like them at all. I inserted
the first mag and "seated" it, a round popped out of the 
mag and jammed the bolt, so I stopped seating the mag and
tried putting it "firmly" into the magizine well, one mag
fell out while I was low crawling.
-- 
##########################################################
There are only two types of ships in the NAVY; SUBMARINES 
                 and TARGETS !!!
#1/XS1100LH	#2/10/10/92
Richard Pierson E06584 vnet: [908] 699-6063
Internet: fist@iscp.bellcore.com,|| UUNET:uunet!bcr!fist  
#include <std.disclaimer> My opinions are my own!!!
I Don't shop in malls, I by my jeans, jackets and ammo
in the same store.
From: jheath@fieldofdreams.npirs.purdue.edu (Jim Heath)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Psychology in Defense
Date: 9 Nov 92 18:51:04 GMT
Article-I.D.: CERIS.1992Nov9.142251.7031
Organization: Center for Environmental and Regulatory Information Systems, Purdue University

#From article <199211071908.AA18077@ucsu.Colorado.EDU>, by fcrary@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (Frank Crary):
# 
# The story might be getting aroung a bit, but no it isn't a friend
# of a friend or an urban ledgend: It happened to a real, actual,
# close friend of mine... I have heard several, similar friend of
# friend stories like this, however. I know this knid of story isn't
# really good evidence, however: Some people have suggested that
# a criminal might be _encouraged_ by a shotgun being racked (on the
# grounds that the user is an idiot who hadn't bothered to load his
# gun until now.) Are there _any_ reported cases of such a thing?
# We seem to have one theory, backed up by alot of stories (which
# may or may not be representative) versus another theory standing
# on its own...
#

Well, the average criminal doesn't seem to be a rocket scientist,
but the sound of the gun being armed (pump or auto shotgun,
self-loading pistol) should certainly tell all but the stupidest
that the weapon is now ready to go ;-{). 
-- 
"Land of song, said the warrior bard,           Jim Heath
Though all the world betrays thee.
One sword, at least, thy rights shall guard, (The Minstrel Boy)
One faithful harp will praise thee."         (Thomas Moore)
From: bressler@iftccu.boeing.com (Rick Bressler)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Bad tactical position ( was Psychology in Defense)
Date: 11 Nov 92 15:49:36 GMT
Organization: Boeing Commercial Airplane Group


/ iftccu:rec.guns / hollombe@polymath.tti.com (The Polymath) /  7:04 pm  Nov  8, 1992 /
In article <1992Nov5.004254.3842@ke4zv.uucp> ke4zv!gary@gatech.edu (Gary Coffman) writes:

#}Laser sights seem to be the real intimidator. Having that bright
#}red spot playing over your chest can make you really queasy.  ...
#
#Only if you notice it.  If you're going through a dark house and think you
#may have encountered an armed defender, are you going to be paying much
#attention to your chest?

Plus, unless the air is VERY clear, there is a nice line drawn back to
YOU!  You have given away your position.  Better hope there is just one
of them and that you can spot them before they see your road sign.
Laser sights, like tritium night sights, have very narrow applications.

What?  Flames directed my way about night sights?  Well, I can give you
my opinion...  You all are certainly entitled to make your own
decisions.

Tritium sights work well in one condition.  They let you see your sights
in certain low light situations where you can see your target but your
sights aren't real clear.  Most often this would happen at dusk or in a
shooting range where the shooting stations aren't well lit.  Neither of
these is your typical self defense situation.  (Has anybody ever heard
of a case of somebody being assaulted at a range?  I'm sure it has
probably happened, I just haven't heard about it!)

By comparison, most armed encounters take place after dark/and or
indoors.  At this point, the target may be VERY indistinct.  You
certainly don't need to be partially blinded by your sights.  You should
be able to hit reliably out to 5 to 10 yards WITHOUT your sights anyway,
and this covers most personal defense situations.

Add to this that anybody standing behind you can clearly see your sights
too, again, you have given away your own position.

I've done a fair amount of low light/night shooting.  These are designed
to be situations where you can't see your gun, but can at least identify
the target as a 'shoot' target, even if you can barely see it.  All
those glowing sights bobbing around are kind of cute.  Of course, after
the exercise, when the owners of the sights saw this, many of them had
them removed.  Especially when they were out shot by people without
them.

Tritium sights are good for aimed fire beyond 10 yards in low light but 
where the target is easily visible.  As such, they qualify as a very 
special purpose tool, something that I won't have on something as 
general purpose as my defense guns.  Tritium sights are a poor substitute 
for learning to shoot properly in the (near) dark.  Again, the only real 
solution is to find some training.  These opinions are my own, but are 
strongly influenced by Mas Ayoob and John Farnum.

Rick.