HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: frank2@underdog.ee.wits.ac.za (FRANK D N)
Subject: Re: Can I axe you a (sikth) question?
Organization: Wits Electrical Engineering (Undergrads).
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 15:26:11 GMT

Do people in country's other than South Africa have great difficulty 
pronouncing the words *fiFth* and *siXth* correctly? These words are 
commonly pronounced *fith* and *sikth* here.	

I'd guess this has something to do with them phonotactics thingies.

--
David Frank       <frank2@underdog.ee.wits.ac.za>
University of the Witwatersrand, Johannesburg
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: andrew@venus.resntl.bhp.com.au
Subject: Re: "Route"
Organization: BHP Research, Newcastle Laboratories
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 23:48:20 GMT

In article <1992Aug12.032735.6755@redsox.bsw.com>, campbell@redsox.bsw.com (Larry Campbell) writes:
> 
> 
> On the other hand, hardware boxes from Cisco and Wellfleet "route"
> rather than "rout" (one hopes!) the network traffic.
> 
> I grew up in the Boston area and never heard "route" pronounced
> as though rhyming with "pout" until I began working in the computer
> industry.
> 
I haven't seen anyone mention this yet but to speak to an Australian about a
"network roooter" sounds hilariously funny since colloquially "root" (as in
"rooot") means:
a) to completely stuff something up, wreck, destroy or ruin
b) to have sexual intercourse with (I am sure you can think of some term to
   which it is a closer approximation ;-)

It reminds me of the story, probably apocryphal, about the proposed new Wang
Field Service slogan "Wang Cares" that was dropped after someone pointed out
what slang term that sounded like...

Andrew
--
 Andrew Lewis         Mathematical Modelling Group
 Tel: +61 49 510618   BHP Research - Newcastle Laboratories
 Fax: +61 49 513740   P.O. Box 188, Wallsend 2287, Australia
 Internet: lewis@resntl.bhp.com.au  AUSTPAC: 0505249527000::lewis
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: sp@mirabeau.osf.fr (Simon Patience)
Subject: Re: "Route"
Reply-To: sp@mirabeau.osf.fr (Simon Patience)
Organization: OSF Research Institute
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 09:46:55 GMT

In article <1992Aug12.162454.23373@bcrka451.bnr.ca>, dewi@bnr.ca (Dewi
Williams) writes:
> In article <1992Aug11.235503.26716@athena.mit.edu>, dks@athena.mit.edu
(dks) writes:
> > In article <1992Aug11.210423.4859@news.eng.convex.com>,
> > tchrist@convex.COM (Tom Christiansen) writes:
> > >From the keyboard of dks@MIT.EDU (dks):
> > >:Some USAns pronounce "route" to rhyme with "out," i.e., without
> > >:reference to its origin.  Is there a geographic pattern to this
> > >:"new" pronunciation or is it better correlated with something else?
> > >
> > >What do you mean "new"?
> > 
> > You're right, of course.  "New" is a relative term.
> > 
> In Chaucer's time the spelling was "rowte", so it was probably
> pronounced that way in England.

That depends on how you pronounce 'row' of course. :-)  I would have
thought that Chaucer would have pronounced it close to the French
pronunciation as that is from where it came, and a lot closer to his
time than ours too. But I am no language historian.

Simon.

  Simon Patience
  Open Software Foundation			Phone: +33-76-63-48-72
  Research Institute				FAX:   +33-76-51-05-32
  2 Avenue De Vignate				Email: sp@gr.osf.org
  38610 Gieres, France				       uunet!gr.osf.org!sp
From: tony@iti.org (Anthony Skjellum)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: hyphenation (the future vs. now)
Summary: Well, do we do more or less hyphenation
Keywords: hyphens
Date: 23 Aug 92 04:08:01 GMT

In writing and technical writing, strict hyphenation of English seems
to be going by the wayside.  We do not hyphenate compound adjectives
that have ly-adverbs, but we ought to hyphenate more than we typically
do, to be strictly correct.

for instance:

		single-input, single-output controller
could also be
		single-input-single-output controller

though this is horrible.

In computerese, we develop new compound nouns that are more than one
word, such as "message passing."  To be correct, we should write
message-passing system, when we refer to software that supports the
concept "message passing."  In my opinion, the words "message passing"
are already an atomic concept (the space is incidental), so that
the hyphenation could (in a radical school of hyphenation) be dismissed.
Ideas?

D. H. Lawrence uses the construct "Lady-Chatterly business" in his
novel "Lady Chatterly's Lover."  I think this is a fascinating example
of my concept in a non-technical area.  


- Tony Skjellum

--
 	.	.	.	.	.	.	.	.	.      .
"They also serve who only stand and wait." - J. Milton

Anthony Skjellum, LLNL, (510)422-1161; FAX: (510)423-2993; tony@helios.llnl.gov
Xref: sparky alt.usage.english:6645 sci.lang:6557
From: tchrist@convex.COM (Tom Christiansen)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english,sci.lang
Subject: Re: ASCII IPA (was Re: "Route")
Date: 19 Aug 92 20:17:07 GMT
Article-I.D.: news.1992Aug19.201707.6232
Reply-To: tchrist@convex.COM (Tom Christiansen)
Organization: Convex Computer Corporation, Colorado Springs, CO
Originator: tchrist@pixel.convex.com
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

From the keyboard of evan@hpl.hp.com (Evan Kirshenbaum):
:We could use a clean system, but last time I suggested working on one,
:the response was underwhelming (I'm not about to do it myself).

I do wish that a clean system could be used, because it disambiguates
cases when people say "Oh, it sounds like `route', or `root'," or whatever.
I agree that the /A/ and /a/ is a problem, although it seems clear
to me that /r/ should be as in `pero' and /R/ as in `perro'.  But 
we could clean this up (couldn't we?) and have something better
than we have now.

From an old message from Evan, he wrote:
    
    It handles most of the normal cases, although it is missing some of
    the diacritics (lip rounding, devoicing), clicks, tone, etc.  It is
    most useful for describing differences between dialects in European
    languages.  IMO some of the choices could have been made better (/a/
    and /A/ seem backward; /N/ should probably be used for /g~/), but it's
    useful because it exists.

    Is is worth trying to hammer it into an "official sci.lang ipa set"?

Yes.

Another thing that's not mentioned is that of course /t/ is sometimes
alveolar (Germanic tongues) and sometimes dental (Latin tongues), 
and sometimes aspirated ("top") and other times not so ("stop").

I agree that /N/ should be what's represented in various tongues
by diacricriticals and digraphs, like n~, gn, nh, and ny.

Examples for ALL the letters should really be included.

I'm certainly willing to work on this, but don't have much background
apart from English, Romance, and some general linguistics and general
phonetics, so some other more knowledgeable folk would have to pitch in
as well.

--tom
-- 
    Tom Christiansen      tchrist@convex.com      convex!tchrist

	    Pronunciation -- think of Psyche!
	    Is a paling stout and spikey?
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: mcoffin@IASTATE.EDU (Marie Coffin)
Subject: Re: questions questions
Reply-To: mcoffin@IASTATE.EDU (Marie Coffin)
Organization: Iowa State University
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 22:31:04 GMT

In article <9208181722.AA13431@sumac09.cray.com>, jjd@TEAK.CRAY.COM (Jeff
Drummond) writes:
>                            [...deleted...]
> Speak for yourself, please.  I pronounce the `t' in often and consider it
> neither pompous nor inappropriate.  I also pronounce the `t' in eaten,
> marten, shorten and whiten.
> 
> Maybe that explains why my acting career never got off the ground.
> 
> I suppose using four syllables for `vegetable' is not Phonetically Correct
> either?  *Sigh*
> 
> >Gabe Wiener - Columbia Univ.     "This 'telephone' has too many shortcomings
> >gmw1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu       to be seriously considered as a means of 
> >N2GPZ in ham radio circles        communication. The device is inherently of
> >72355,1226 on CI$                 no value to us." -Western Union memo, 1877
> 
> -Jeff    jjd@cray.com
> --
> "English has a vocabulary nearly twice the size of any other language."
> -Charles Berlitz in _Native_Tongues_

At the risk of inflaming another Pronounciation War, I have to point out
that eaten, marten, shorten, and whiten are not spelled analogously to
often.  You might be interested in the following, which is from Charles
Elster's _There is no Zoo in Zoology_;

	In 1932, the English lixicographer Henry Cecil Wyld called
	the pronounciation AWF-ten "sham-refined," and today the bad
	odor of class-conscious affectation still clings to it as 
	persistently as ever.  As if that were not enough, analogy is 
	entirely unsupportive:  No one pronounces the T in soften, 
	listen, fasten, moisten, hasten, chasten, christen, or 
	Christmas -- so, once and for all, let's do away with the 
  	eccentric AWF-ten.

On the other hand, Elster does not mention after, sifter, and lifted.

Incidentally, Elster also calls the four-syllable pronounciation of vegetable
"an archaism", and adds "in colloquial speech it is virtually extinct". 

Marie Coffin
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: eepjm@wombat.newcastle.edu.au (Peter Moylan)
Subject: Re: Can I axe you a question?
Organization: University of Newcastle, AUSTRALIA
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 01:53:07 GMT

In article <1992Aug19.111131.16541@usenet.ins.cwru.edu>, bf455@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Bonita Kale) writes:
> 
> By the way, do non US kids do that, too?  Or is it only part of US
> childspeak?  Does anybody know of any studies in the differences, if any,
> in baby talk among children brought up in different dialects of English? 

The "arks" for "ask" pronunciation is part of the Newcastle (NSW, Australia)
dialect, but I haven't heard it elsewhere in Australia.

Not sure about ex-scape.  My children come up with many strange
pronunciations, but I don't think I've heard them say that.

Peter
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: baron@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Dennis Baron)
Subject: acronym
Organization: University of Illinois
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 20:15:52 GMT

Was it on this newsgroup, in a discussion of foobar, that someone mentioned
the acronym WEFT as signifying "Wrong every f...ing time?"  Anyone know
the source/origin/derivation of this, if true?  Reason I ask is, we have
a noncommercial alternative radio station (not NPR) in town with these
call letters.  Did somebody put something over on the FCC?

Dennis

___


debaron@uiuc.edu               (\                   217-333-2392
                               \'\             fax: 217-333-4321
Dennis Baron                    \'\           __________
Department of English           / '|         ()_________)
Univ. of Illinois               \ '/          \ ~~~~~~~~ \
608 S. Wright St.                 \             \ ~~~~~~   \
Urbana IL 61801                   ==).            \__________\
                                 (__)             ()__________)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: peter.churchill@rose.com (peter churchill)
Subject: Re: Axe
Organization: Rose Media Inc, Toronto, Ontario.
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 16:30:01 GMT
X-Gated-By: Usenet <==> RoseMail Gateway (v1.70)


Date Entered: 08-19-92 11:19

futor@llnl.gov (randy j futor) wrote:
|  miner@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu wrote:
| > >  gmw1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Gabe M Wiener) writes:
| > >> . . . "axe" in place of "ask" . . .
| > 
| > The form pronounced "axe" for "ask" is the original form.  Cf. Old
| > English _acsian_, i.e. /aksjan/ 'to ask.'
| 
| I'm not entirely convinced.  Fortunately for my position, neither is
| Pokorny in my brand new Copyright 1992 AHD3.
| 
| At 'ask':
|      [ Middle English _asken_, from Old English _aascian_.  See AIS- in
| Appendix ]
| 
| At AIS- in the Appendix of Indo-European Roots:
|     To wish, desire.  Suffixed form *_ais-sk-_.  Ask, from Old English
| _aascian_, _aacsian_, to ask, seek, from Germanic *_aiskoon_.  [ Pokorny 1.
| _ais-_ 16. ]
 

I use the Canadian edition of the same dictionary as my general 
standard but sometimes am pushed to ax a little further. In his 
Etymol. Dict of Mod. Eng. Weekley neatley covers both sides of the 
question.   I quote:

ASK. AS. _ascian_ or _acsian_. WGer,: cf. Du. _eischen_, Ger. heischen 
(OHG. _eiscon_). Mod. form should have become _ash, esch_ forms found 
in ME. _Ask_ is northern, while _ax_, from _acsian_ was literary E. 
till circa 1600, and is still in gen. dial. use in south and midlands.

He then quotes from John Tyngale's translation of the New Testament 
(1525), Matt. vii, 7:
  "Axe, and it shalbe geven you."

Someone did, and it has been.

Regards: *PC*   <peter.churchill@rose.com> - Toronto.
---
   RoseReader 1.70 P001013
   RM 2.00 : RoseNet<=>Usenet Gateway : Rose Media 416-733-2285
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: mgfrank@avernus.com (Marc G. Frank)
Subject: Re: Asses
Organization: Maryland Appreciation Society, Buffalo, NY
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 03:55:38 GMT

In article <992Aug.8559.7097@rose.com> peter.churchill@rose.com (peter churchill) writes:
>I have faint recollections of a snicker or two in Sunday School when 
>someone, sotto voce, mentioned JC riding into Jerusalem on his ass.

In the Vulgate, at least according to Wheelock's *Latin Literature*, the
tenth commandment reads (translated by me)

You will not lust after your neighbor's home: nor shall you covet his
wife, nor his slave, nor his maid, nor his cow, nor his ass, nor any of
his other stuff.

Marc "Definitely not coveting my neighbor's ass" Frank

+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+
| Marc G. Frank                                  mgfrank@avernus.com |
|                  Proud owner of BSDI's BSD/386.                    |
+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+
From: tysoj@solb1.essex.ac.uk (Tyson J R)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Coke brings back ancestors ...
Date: 14 Aug 92 15:38:38 GMT
Reply-To: tysoj@essex.ac.uk (Tyson J R)
Organization: University of Essex, Colchester, UK


In article <66cFPB12w165w@xocolatl.com> ssmith@xocolatl.com writes:
...

>
>Reminds me of the Chevy Nova...No va meaning "doesn't go" in Spanish.
>
>There was also the underarm deodorant--Tickle, I think--that was
>being endorsed here in the States by an octopus (okay, okay, a lovely
>young woman dressed as one).  It was a successful ad campaign here,
>so it was exported to China and/or the Far East.  Apparently some
>people there regard the octopus as having eight *legs*.....
>
>I, too, collect mangled English and would also love to find such a
>group!

And how about the Triumph Acclaim, a car made jointly by Rover and
Honda?  Their marketing in Germany was hampered by the fact that Triumph
Acclaim translates into German as Sieg Heil...

Well, if it's true it's the best yet!

Jim Tyson
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: yholbroo@nyx.cs.du.edu (Yash Holbrook)
Subject: Re: Less versus Fewer... time to give up?
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 92 00:04:53 GMT

In article <Bsvv1C.EwF@news.cso.uiuc.edu> rmshair@chgvmic1.vnet.ibm.com writes:
>Is it time to give up on the distinction between "less" and "fewer?"
>Statements such as this one, excerpted from the formal IBM Announcement
>Letter for a new display, sound wrong to me:     
>
>          The PS/2 8511 Color Display has far less components than the IBM      
>Bob Shair                          shair@chgvmic1.vnet.ibm.com

No wonder it "sounds wrong."  It is.  It should be "many fewer" or some
such combination.  No, Virginia, it is NOT time to give up on this 
distinction.  Instead of going into and perhaps relaunching a debate
about "purity" in language (well, what else could a.u.e. be for?), I'll
just cast my vote for the "correct sound" of it.  It SOUNDS so much
more vivid and powerful that way...to me at least. (ahem, should have 
preceded last statement w/IMHO).

-Yash HOlbrook

Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: eepjm@wombat.newcastle.edu.au (Peter Moylan)
Subject: Re: Less versus Fewer... time to give up?
Organization: University of Newcastle, AUSTRALIA
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 04:10:30 GMT

In article <71275@apple.Apple.COM>, shaevel@Apple.COM (Jeff Shaevel) writes:

> In Arlington, VA, I remember a time when the express lines first started
> at a major supermarket with the "12 items or less" signs in place.  Within
> one week there were formal paste-ups over the "less" so the signs read
> "12 items or fewer".  Within a month, the signs were replaced completely
> with the correct phrase.  I was very impressed.  Northern Virginia (it 
> wasn't only that store) is the only place I've been to that's gotten it 
> right.
> 
> Any others out there?

Jeff, you have prompted me to action.  I'm now printing a copy of
this article.  With your permission, I'd like to tape copies to the
windows of some local supermarkets.

Peter

(P.S. Actually, I prefer "12 or fewer items"; but that's a whole
 nother quibble.)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english,sci.lang
From: JAREA@UKCC.UKY.EDU
Subject: Re: Can I axe you a question?
    <1992Aug18.033717.13510@news.columbia.edu> 
    <1992Aug18.223433.10095@math.ucla.edu> 
    <1992Aug19.034746.28135@athena.cs.uga.edu>
Organization: University of Kentucky
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 01:34:30 GMT

In article <1992Aug19.034746.28135@athena.cs.uga.edu>
mcovingt@athena.cs.uga.edu (Michael A. Covington) writes:
 
>
>Anyhow, calling it "laziness" does not explain _why_ it's "easier" to
>pronounce "axe" than "ask".  The linguistic question here is why
>speakers would find one of them easier than the other.
>--
Come, now Michael, surely you don't expect the clientele on this board to
ask  linguistic  questions, nor accept  linguistic answers!
     ^^^^^^^^^^                         ^^^^^^^^^^
 
>+ Michael Covington - Artificial Intelligence Programs - U of Georgia - USA
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english,soc.culture.british
From: mnash@IDA.ORG (Mike Nash)
Subject: Re: Name for Brits and Irish?
Organization: IDA, Alexandria, VA
Distribution: eunet
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 92 17:57:20 GMT

Can anyone involved in this discussion (or anyone else, for that matter) explain
the term "Innisfail," which often turns up in crossword puzzles as a clue for
which the answer is "Eire"?  For that matter, what about "Erin"?
-- 
	  Mike Nash     |  [This Space Available.  Call 1-800-GETASIG]
	  mnash@ida.org |
From: slagle@lmsc.lockheed.com (Mark Slagle)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: pundette
Date: 15 Aug 92 09:24:17 GMT
	<1992Aug10.112029.8144@vax.oxford.ac.uk>
	<1992Aug13.153315.11686@microsoft.com>
Reply-To: slagle@lmsc.lockheed.com
Organization: You wouldn't ask this if you'd seen my desk.
In-reply-to: frankm@microsoft.com's message of 13 Aug 92 15:33:15 GMT

In article <1992Aug13.153315.11686@microsoft.com>, frankm@microsoft.com (Frank R.A.J. Maloney) writes:

> of equality between the customer and the server; as an
> ex-bartender, ex-wine steward, ex-bar manager, who has served many
> a drink and many a lunch and appetizer in many a bar, I am
> very impatient with anyone who thinks that he or she is
> inherently superior to the person bringing on the goodies.

Speaking also as one who has spent considerable time on both
sides of the bar:  Whether or not the customer believes in their
own superiority, any surly barkeep or waiter who does not act in
such a way as to indicate a belief in that fiction is unlikely to
be able to make more than a meager living at the profession.  The
customer is right, even if the customer is a bitch or an ass or
a donkey or ... whatever, you're not allowed to tell them so.
What's more important, maintaining your dignity before a person
who is incapable of appreciating it, or taking them for a well
paid ride in their own fantasy?
--
----
Mark E. Slagle                                 PO Box 61059
slagle@lmsc.lockheed.com                       Sunnyvale, CA   94088
408-756-0895                                   USA
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: ash@mlacus.oz.au (Ash Nallawalla)
Subject: Re: The Great Debate : Clarifications (LONG)
Organization: Australian Centre for Unisys Software, Melbourne
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 22:45:25 GMT

colville@socs.uts.edu.au (John Colville) writes:

>They are pronounced differently by *most* people in Australia. Some I wonder
>about.  I remember when we were 'going metric' Gough Whitlam tried
>to introduce the French-style pronunciation of kilometer i.e. as
>kil-om-e-ter by comparing it with therm-om-e-ter.

Sad to say but the form I hear more often is "kiLOM-eter". My preference
is kilo-MEter.  I didn't understand what you meant by Gough's pronunciation
being French style because I'd expect the French to say "KI-lo-metr".

I spell it as per SI. Of course. :-)

The interesting metric variant of "mileage" in our company's claim forms
is "kilometerage".  What is the variant of mile-o-meter (unsure of
spelling)?
-- 
=============================================================================
Ash Nallawalla		Tel: +61 3 550-1638 BH; Fax +61 3 742-4566 
ZL4LM/VK3CIT		Postal: P.O. Box 539, Werribee VIC 3030, Australia
ash@mlacus.oz.au        Contact me if you belong to a PC User Group!
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: shaevel@Apple.COM (Jeff Shaevel)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Coke brings back ancestors ...
Date: 16 Aug 92 15:26:20 GMT
Organization: Apple Computer Inc., Cupertino, CA

crawford@ben.dev.upenn.edu (Lauren L. Crawford) writes:

>How about mangled English that isn't necessarily part of a screwed up
>ad campaign?  Anybody seen any awful menu translations?  Signs?  
>Operator manuals?  Stuff written on "Hello Kitty" lunch boxes?  

In the category of "operator manuals":  I'll never forget the first time I tried
reading the instruction book for the DX7 synthesizer.  The translations was 
almost artistic in it's mangling.  My favorite was the translation of the 
concept of "modulation" as "tickling".  It took me a while to turn "operator 
tickling" into "waveform modulation"...
-- 
Jeff Shaevel        :-)-: (comedy/tragedy)    Love may be blind, 
shaevel@apple.com                             but lust is autistic.
From: dks@athena.mit.edu (dks)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: pundette
Date: 12 Aug 92 13:01:29 GMT
Organization: MIT, Cambridge, Massachusetts, USA.

In article <1992Aug12.094523.18517@kronos.arc.nasa.gov>,
Kanef@Charon.ARC.NASA.gov (Bob Kanefsky) writes:
>In article <1992Aug10.124416.14455@athena.mit.edu>,
>dks@athena.mit.edu (dks) writes:
>|> Is there a single word for "male nurse"?
>
>The last male nurse I met socially said he was a "nurse" when I asked him
>what he did for a living.  Is there a single word for "female doctor"?

Certainly, *I* think my point bears re-statement,
but I'm not sure everyone else agrees!


Dhanesh
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english