From: fester@island.COM (Mike Fester)
Subject: Re: Fingerprinting Gaijin
Organization: /usr/local/rn/organization
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 17:07:02 GMT

In article <1992Nov20.030848.2069@leland.Stanford.EDU> underdog@leland.Stanford.EDU (Dwight Joe) writes:
>In article <1992Nov19.173625.3208@island.COM> fester@island.COM (Mike Fester)
>writes:
>>In article <1992Nov18.060308.27770@leland.Stanford.EDU>
>>underdog@leland.Stanford.EDU (Dwight Joe) writes:
>
>I already apologized to Smittie for this overstep, but in general,
>statistical probability is on my side.  The marriages of Japanese-ge
>women+European-ge men far exceeds the marriages of Japanese-ge men+
>European-ge women.
>
>Chances are that Ms. Morikawa is ethnically Japanese.

Unless and until you have something other than blatant assertion, you are 
better off not making assumptions.

>>No, they are not. First of all, the ancestors of most other foreigners 
>>were not forcibly relocated into Japan. 
>
>The issue is that they are currently foreigners in Japan.  They could
>get citizenship in Japan, but they don't want to.

BTW, many of them were Japanese citizens, and had that citizenship rescinded
after WWII.

>Yes, they were forced to go to Japan initially, but there is no law
>that stops them from being a Japanese citizen.

As anyone who has lived in Japan can tell (and many have tried) what is most
famous about Japanese law is its "case-by-case" basis. This is used to 'deny'
things that would ordinarily be granted outright to other groups.

>>>In particular regard to citizenship, most Koreans do not want citizenship
>>>but do want the rights that are associated with it.  The Koreans have never
>>As has been pointed out ad-nauseum, most of the Koreans DO want citizenship
>>in Japan: many of them simply do not want to give up their names.
>
>Too bad.
>
>We should distinguish between (1) immigration laws that we don't like
>and (2) immigration laws that discriminate.  The repeated citation of
>being supposedly forced to adopt a Japanese last name is #1, not #2.

It is discriminatory if applied to one group (Koreans) and not another.

>By the way, I see nothing wrong with Japan having a law that requires
>all immigrants wanting citizenship to adopt a Japanese last name even
>though Japan does not currently have such a law.

It does, however, have coercive elements in it.

>The law does not require a Japanese last name, but the immigration office
>will pressure a foreign to adopt one.  But this applies to all foreigners.

Nope, it doesn't.

>>And even
>>if they get citizenship, they registry carries a "new citizen" stamp on it,
>>and in many cases this can (though not legally) prevent them from gettting
>>certain jobs.
>
>That again, is another issue.  Once a Korean becomes a Japanese citizen,
>then she is entitled to all the rights of a Japanese citizen.  If a
>Japanese citizen is discriminated against because she is Korea, she
>should fight that discrimination.  I agree that there will be discrimination.

Not in Japan, and you already admit you see nothing wrong with treatment of
these people anyway.

>Again, this is a separate issue from citizenship.
>
>Koreans should first get citizenship before whining about wanting the
>rights of citizenship.  Japan is entitled to dicriminate against non-citizens
>if that's what it wants to do.  The USA does the same.

However, it IS responsible for those it forcibly relocated, as is the US>

>>>once presented a case of a specific person who was denied citizenship by
>>>the Japanese gov't and who (1) wanted citizenship and (2) met the terms of
>>>citizenship.
>>While it is not TECHNICALLY required by Japanese law, such name changes are
>>effectively required. Thus, numerous requests for citizenship have been 
>>turned down. 
>
>Japanese law does not require name changes.

As we have all pointed out to you numerous times.

>You can fight the pressure; some people have and won.  My Taiwanese coworker
>chose not to object and obtained citizenship.
>
>Most Koreans in Japan as a result of WWII already meet the citizenship
>requirements.  They have lived long enough in Japan to meet both
>the permanent residence and citizenship requirements.

Uh, well, yes, considering that that is the only nation many of them have 
ever known, it would seem reasonable.

>If they don't want to change their names, then tough.  Other foreigners
>are subjected to the same pressures.  They acceded and obtained
>Japanese citizenship.  I see no discrimination here.

But then, you admittedly don't like Koreans.

>But also note that many Koreans find the idea of pledging allegiance
>to Japan and absolving any allegiance toward Korea to be repugnant.

Note: the pledge of allegiance is very controversial in Japan among school-age
Japanese. And I have heard of no case of a "Korean" objecting to renouncing
ties to a country they have never seen.

>>However, any person born in the US (as the 1.2 million "Koreans" were born in
>>Japan, some of them 3rd generation by now) CAN vote, once they turn 18.
>
>That's because those people born in the US automatically become citizens.

Well, duh!

>Japanese laws for becoming citizens are different, but that doesn't
>mean that they are discriminatory against the Koreans.  Japan
>is perfectly entitled to different citizenship laws proved that they
>do not discriminate on the basis of ethnicity (Korean immigration
>laws do severely discriminate on the basis of ethnicity).

As pointed out before, the fact is that they were forcibly relocated into 
Japan. They were then forced to serve the empire, and then summarily cut loose.
That is, de facto, discrimination. And anyone who has spent any time in the
immigration offices in Japan can give you more stories about how "Koreans" are
discriminated against. Note: the Japanese government is finally beginning to 
admit they are wrong.

>>It is also easier for people of Japanese descent from other nations to get
>>Japanese immigration permission, and permanent residence, and (if they wish)
>>citizenship. this was discussed at length in the Japanese papars a couple of
>
>This is not a problem of the immigration laws.  They are unbiased and
>fairly applied to everyone.

This is wrong as well. Several people have posted problems in getting  tourist
visas processed for friends of theirs, if that friind is from a 3rd-world
country. It was the Japanese government which decided to expidite visa 
applications by (esp) Brazilian-Japanese, and to give them special language
training.

>This is a problem due to discrimination in hiring practices by Japanese
>firms.  They _do_ prefer people with Japanese ethnic backgrounds.  They
>are hired by the firms who then sign the papers that say that the firms
>act as a guarantor for the behavior of the Brazilian-Japanese, for example.
>Unless these papers are signed, it is very hard for a foreigner to come to
>work in Japan.

This is wrong, too. The Brazilians were granted early permanent residence by
the Japanese. And BTW, many nations have arrangements with Japan whereby 
its citizens can get part-time work with only a tourist visa (most European
countries, eg). None of these requires a guarantor. None of these reciprocal 
arrangements is with an Asian country.

>However, discriminatory hiring practices by the firms does not imply
>discrimination in the immigration laws.  If Japanese firms only hired
>Taiwanese-ge, then immigration would be similarly skewed.

Again, as pointed out, this is not the case. It is the government which applies
the preference.

>However, it is true that Japanese firms prefer ethnic Japanese for very
>biased and unfair reasons.  For those same reasons, Korean firms almost
>exclusively prefer Korean-Chinese over Chinese-Chinese.

???

>>years ago, due the influx of Brazilian-Japanese. "Returnees" have always been
>>dealt with differently than other groups in Japan.

My original point.

Mike
-- 
Disclaimer - I'm only doing what the little voices tell me to do.