HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: hillyard@lynx.msc.cornell.edu.UUCP (Sean Edward Hillyard,F7 Clark,50649,)
Subject: Re: Hiring quotas and faculty positions (Repost #2)
Originator: hillyard@msc2.msc.cornell.edu
Organization: Cornell-Materials-Science-Center
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 20:49:45 GMT

From article <1958@snap>, by paj@uk.co.gec-mrc (Paul Johnson):
> In article <12SEP199219100161@vtcc1.cc.vt.edu> merolajs@vtcc1.cc.vt.edu (JOSEPH S. MEROLA DEPT OF CHEMISTRY VPI&SU) writes:
> 
>>[...] However, in another case, we found that there were female
>>candidates who ranked right up there [...]  a good opportunity to
>>increase the value of our faculty with respect to role modelling and
>>a number of other intangible issues.
> 
> Here I must agree with you.  I had not previously considered that
> there might be good reasons for wanting a woman or ethnic minority in
> a faculty position.  If, because of gender or other reasons, an
> applicant would make a better teacher despite having less academic
> ability then by all means hire the best candidate for the job.
> 

But here is a problem with that arguement.  

Lets say company A has decided that whenever applicants are 'equal' they
should hire a man over a woman.  Why?  Because women have this nasty habit
of living too long and draining the pension fund.  The companies
business is to make money, so a man is better suited for the job because
of sex.

This reasoning is probably used by certain companies, but we have decided
as a society that it is a 'bad thing'.  Why is it any different when the 
difference favors a women?

SEH
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: mtp@oregon.uoregon.edu (Matthias Pohl)
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers,soc.culture.canada
Subject: Re: News of Fabrikant - 3
Date: 10 Sep 92 16:23:28 GMT
Article-I.D.: nntp.1992Sep10.162328.18267
Organization: Dep. of Chemistry

In article <1992Sep9.154224.26166@philmtl.philips.ca>, ray@philmtl.philips.ca (Ray Dunn) writes:

> And he warned that violence will be repeated "again and again and again" -
> he didn't say by whom - if he is not allowed to tell the court his side of
> the story.
>  

As much as one might sympathize with Fabrikant...the threat of repeated
violence shows that this man is a dangerous criminal, and/or has severe
mental problems. Anyway, with such threats he risks to be placed in
security confinement (different from punishment) for the rest of his life. I slowly come to the conclusion that that might be the best for him and for society...

/Matthias
From: yang@dante.cs.uiuc.edu (Der-Shung Yang)
Subject: Re: New Topic
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept. of Comp. Sci., Urbana, IL
Distribution: sci
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 22:52:26 GMT

primeaux@wham-o.cs.utk.edu (David Primeaux) writes:

>In article <1992Sep9.203808.4479@m.cs.uiuc.edu>, gillies@m.cs.uiuc.edu (Don Gillies) writes:
>|> I am graduating soon with a ph.d. in c.s., and I was wondering what
>|> was the best way to go about possibly getting a post-doc?  I was badly
>|> discouraged during last year's academic job hunt, and I may want to
>|> change areas.  I have heard that there are only about 100 post-doc
>|> spots for the entire field of C.S. (which has about 1000 graduates per
>|> year).  Has anyone taken a post-doc in the USA?  What area was it in?
>|> How competitive is the post-doc search process?  What is the best way
>|> to go about finding such a position?
>|> 
>|> Don Gillies - gillies@cs.uiuc.edu - University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
>|> 

>What area are you in?  What area would you change to?  I suspect that
>responses relating to this topic will be of interest to more than a few.
>I am particularly interested, since I am in a similar situation (also cs).
>Please post replies.

>-- David
>primeaux@cs.utk.edu

Questions along the same line: How many of those ~100 post-docs
are for AI (Artificial Intelligenece)? I wonder what area in the entire
C.S. field is the easiest to find an academic job, and what area is best
for industrial jobs. Also, is that a norm to find a post-doc first before
looking for a tenure-track faculty position now? 

ps. Why are there so many CS PhDs worrying about their careers? When did
    the world change :-(

--
DerShung Yang    
yang@cs.uiuc.edu 
Beckman Institute
Univ. of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Xref: sparky sci.research.careers:1036 soc.culture.asian.american:8946
From: gilligan@bldrdoc.gov (Jonathan M. Gilligan)
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers,soc.culture.asian.american
Subject: Re: Asian-American success (was Re: Hiring quotas and faculty positions)
Date: 12 Sep 92 01:15:32 GMT
Followup-To: sci.research.careers
Organization: National Institute of Standards and Technology


As a followup to Andrew Chin's excellent reminder not to lump all
asian-americans together or to label them all with a blanket ``model
minority'' label, let me add that Harvard was discovered about ten
years ago to be discriminating _against_ well qualified asian
americans.  In other words, they felt that if they admitted
undergraduates on the basis of merit, they would have too many asian
americans, so they gave preference to white students over
better-qualified asian americans to promote ``diversity'' of the
student body. I did not notice any white Harvard students protesting
_this_ form of affirmative action.

I would like to close with a statement that a friend of mine made
several years ago when I was talking to him about the ``model
minority'' label.  He said that he was sick and tired of people
thinking that he did so well because he was an asian american, rather
than because he worked hard. He said that he busted his butt every day
to do well, and many people acted as though success came naturally to
him without effort because he was of Chinese ancestry.

---Jon
-- 

Disclaimer --- The government probably disagrees with my opinions.
From: egedi@ahwenasa.cis.upenn.edu (Dania M. Egedi)
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
Subject: Re: Hiring quotas and faculty positions
Date: 11 Sep 92 15:01:43 GMT



When I entered Graduate School back in 1987 (not at U Penn), my entering class
effectively doubled the number of women in the department by bringing in 4 women.
There were wide-spread rumors that the department had been forced to bring up
the number of women in the department, and thus we were all there just because
we were female.  There was quite a bit of nasty things going on just under the
surface, all of which made it quite clear that we were not being taken seriously,
and did not "belong there" because we were just "filling quota".

Finally, at a grad student/DGS meeting, someone asked point-blank if the women
had been brought in as part of affirmative action policy.  The DGS replied that
the only affirmative action that the department undertook was for Americans
in general, otherwise the department would be almost all foriegn students.

For some reason, the men (white American males) who had been the most vocal about
how we (the women) shouldn't be there if we had been brought in as part of AA
didn't see anything wrong with the policy that let them get *their* spots through
essentially the same program.

Things were made unnecessarily difficult for us the entire time that I was there.
When I left after 3 1/2 years, I was the last woman from that entering class left.
None of us received our Ph.D.'s.

My own thoughts on AA is that it doesn't matter if women are brought in through
affirmative action or not, they will still be considered as if they were.  And men
who lose out to a women will consider that it was because of AA, even if it wasn't.
Even if she was just as qualified, or better qualified, or got in for one of the
myriad of reasons that employers use to choose between candidates that make no
sense to the person that wasn't hired.

The time that I am looking forward to is when women don't have to be the best in
the department to justify their existance.  When they can be just 'good' instead
of brilliant, and have that be enough - as it is for the men.  In many fields there 
is a need for a 'critical mass' of women - so that each woman can be a person, instead
of a symbol for her gender.   Flood the field.  Let the whole range be represented, as 
they do with the men.  Some brilliant men don't make it through, some mediocre ones do.
Same thing goes for women.

 - Dania
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dania Egedi, IRCS Research Programmer		egedi@ahwenasa.cis.upenn.edu
Room 400C, 3401 Walnut St.			work:  (215) 898-0365
Philadelphia, PA 19104

"One sign of an impending nervous breakdown is the belief 
that one's work is terribly important"
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: udcrusd@meaddata.com (Sylvia D'Cruz)
Subject: Re: Do the police have Fabrikant's postings?
Organization: Mead Data Central, Dayton OH
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 18:41:34 GMT
Distribution: sci.research.careers

In article <142490001@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM>, reykja@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Reykja Sigurdsson) writes:
|>           As I read the posts, I was struck by two factors: Fabrikant's 
|> idealism and his rigidity. He had very high expectations and couldn't 
|> tolerate, internally, the conflict between his idealism and the reality 
|> of the corruption that is probably standard in all universities. After all
|> the 'publish or perish' syndrome is not exactly a secret! 
|> 
|>           The poor bastard probably made a lot of the same mistakes that many Soviet immigrants make: they believe it is different somewhere else. Human 
|> nature is human nature and ain't nothin gonna change it! 
|> 
|>           Although I don't agree with, or even understand, the impulse to 
|> commit homicide, I can understand the frustration that led to it. 
|> 
|>           It is unlikely that Fabrikant was in his right mind when he 
|> committed the homicides. The description of his behavior is not consistent
|> with someone who has premeditatedly and coldly killed people. (The difference
|> between Fabrikant and Dahmer is obvious.) It is really a shame that there
|> wasn't some intervention before it got this far. Now, two people are dead,
|> three are injured and a brilliant sceintific career is down the drain. 
|> 
|>           Could those of us who read the net have done anything? Probably 
|> not. Didn't he have friends and family who would have become aware of 
|> his increasing inability to deal with this stuff? 
|> 
|> 
|> -reykja   
|> 
|> rks@teal.csn.org   (if you want to respond, please use this address. thanks)

My thought process was along similar lines. It was pretty obvious, when reading
his mail, that he was desperately seeking help. He had reached an unstable
frame of mind. Maybe persecution complex and extreme paranoia. His wife did
mention, that the last few days before the shooting he was very, very withdrawn.
Someone should have noticed the symptoms, and taken/forced (I doubt under the
circumstances, if he would be willing) him, into some pyschiatric counselling.

Sometimes the family may not be aware about the problems facing a person at
work. Plus, it is a delicate situation for the employer to intervene. In the
private sector, some companies offer private counselling, without questions 
asked, with the expenses covered, if utilised. I think, society has accepted
the fact that we go to a doctor for our physical health, but mental well-being
is totally ignored. Maybe, once "pyschiatric counselling" becomes more 
acceptable and expenses covered, there will be less random violence in society.

Sylvia.
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: hillyard@lynx.msc.cornell.edu.UUCP (Sean Edward Hillyard,F7 Clark,50649,)
Subject: Re: Hiring quotas and faculty positions (Repost #2)
Originator: hillyard@msc2.msc.cornell.edu
Organization: Cornell-Materials-Science-Center
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 23:00:19 GMT

From article <11SEP199217133005@jetson.uh.edu>, by schieber@jetson.uh.edu (Schieber, Jay D.):
[...]
> 
> There is no leap of faith involved (the deleted sections of the
> poster imply this).  Being a faculty requires much more than
> strictly technical skills; to think otherwise is quite naive.
> In industry it is even more true.  Industry looks for people who
> fit into the "corporate culture"--clearly not a technical 
> qualification.  I am mentor to hundreds of students, who ask
> me questions about many aspects of working and studying, with
> at least half of the questions having nothing to do about 
> technical matters.
[...]

Yes, but explain to me the difference between these two situations.

We'd like to hire you, but you're black and the rest of the staff won't
work with you very well.  So you won't get as much done as the less 
able white we're hiring.

or

We'd like to hire you, but you're white and won't be as good a mentor to
the black students as the less able black we're hiring.

SEH
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: vcyee@milton.u.washington.edu (Vivien Yee)
Subject: Re: News of Fabrikant - 3
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 01:38:39 GMT

In article <Sep.10.10.09.21.1992.16359@cadenza.rutgers.edu> masticol@cadenza.rutgers.edu (Steve Masticola) writes:
>ray@philmtl.philips.ca (Ray Dunn) writes:
>
>[ Fabrikant:]
>
>>"Violence is not being produced by itself out of nothing.  This particular
>>act of violence was carefully planned and nurtured and I have documents for
>>that."
>
>That makes it first-degree murder. It appears that the man is trying,
>successfully, to self-destruct. Too bad he had to take others with
>him.

Surely from a few lines distributed second/third/??-hand, we cannot be
sure what Fabrikant is thinking?  Another interpretation is that the
"planning and nurturing" of Fabrikant's act of violence have, in his mind,
been carried out by the people who were "against" him?  That, in his
thinking, other people had conspired to destroy him and that he had no
choice but to act?  I am not excusing or apologizing, but would like to
say that rather than spending our time extrapolating judgements from 
too-brief news accounts, we should be focussing on distilling lessons 
from this sad affair.  I know that, whatever the outcome of this case,
I am certainly now much more aware and will make a greater effort to
be alert in the future.  As a postdoc who is still wavering trying to
choose between the academic or industrial path, the Fabrikant story has
been enlightening, to say the least.

Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: bai@msiadmin.cit.cornell.edu (Dov Bai-MSI Visitor)
Subject: Re: Stigma was Re: Hiring quotas and faculty positions
Organization: /usr/local/lib/news/organization
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 13:42:27 GMT

In article <14SEP199206453361@vtcc1.cc.vt.edu> merolajs@vtcc1.cc.vt.edu (JOSEPH S. MEROLA DEPT OF CHEMISTRY VPI&SU) writes:

>
>Finally, I submit to those of you  who disagree with AA the 
>following question:  Articles such as the Ithaca Journal one
>posted earlier show that there are still problems where
>women's applications are not taken seriously.  My own
>experience shows that in the sciences this problem is
>a big one.  So, if AA is not the way to go, propose a
>solution.  

The problem that I have with your approach is that you dont look
at the picture as a whole: every reasonable person would like to see
racism and sexism disappearing. The questions are (1) Is affirmative
action effective ? From what we read it is not. (2) Even if
worked, who has to pay the price for it ? Affirmative action implies
that people who have nothing to do with discrimination and some of
them immigrated recently to the US, and their ancestors could not
be involved in racism in this country are being hurt. I have not read
in your position much that address this question. Honest supporters
of affirmative action at least acknowledge the problem but you choose
to evade it. You would not want to cure one person's failing kidney
by forcing a healty person to a hospital and taking away his kidney.
would you ?

>
>Joseph S. Merola
>Department of Chemistry
>Virginia Tech (aka VPI&SU)
>
>
>
From: gilligan@bldrdoc.gov (Jonathan M. Gilligan)
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
Subject: Mentors (was Re: Hiring quotas and faculty positions (Repost #2))
Date: 15 Sep 92 21:45:03 GMT
Organization: National Institute of Standards and Technology

In article <12SEP199216300206@jetson.uh.edu> schieber@jetson.uh.edu (Schieber, Jay D.) writes:
>In article <1992Sep12.064909.11480@msc.cornell.edu>, hillyard@lynx.msc.cornell.edu.UUCP (Sean Edward Hillyard,F7 Clark,50649,) writes...
>> 
>>Should race/sex ever be a consideration?  There are probably a few jobs,
>>but I don't think scientist or professor are among them.  It may sound
>>a little harsh, but if someone if too sexist/racist to have a mentor of
>>a different sex/race then that's their problem.
>
>Sadly, there are many departments with faculty who make good mentors
>only to other white males (for example).  That is *clearly* not the
>students' rascism/sexism.

Several women colleagues of mine have told me of working on
experiments with supervisors who were socially awkward around
women---my colleagues didn't feel that there was any intentional
hostility; it was just that these guys were shy around women---so
these supervisors would sit and talk at great length about the
experiments with male grad students and postdocs, explaining things
and asking for the young men's input, while with women postdocs and
grad students, the conversations would be short and stilted and the
women would have no opportunity to show how smart they were or to
receive the same kind of helpful mentoring that the men were getting.

The women felt that this would be a real disadvantage if they asked
these particular supervisors for recommendations, since the guys
hadn't gotten to know the women and wouldn't be able to write as vivid
a description of their strengths as they could for the men.

From my own experiences teaching high-school math and physics, I would
say that my greatest flaw as a teacher was my failure, in many of the
same ways that I'm describing, to be a good mentor to my black
students. I did not try to discriminate, but nonetheless, I did in
fact treat black students differently from white ones and I could see
that my black colleagues did a much better job as mentors of black
students than I did.

---Jon
-- 

Disclaimer --- The government probably disagrees with my opinions.
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: drraymon@watdragon.uwaterloo.ca (Darrell Raymond)
Subject: Re: Stigma was Re: Hiring quotas and faculty positions
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 23:15:48 GMT

In article <14SEP199215404508@vtcc1.cc.vt.edu>, merolajs@vtcc1.cc.vt.edu (JOSEPH S. MEROLA DEPT OF CHEMISTRY VPI&SU) writes:
> 
> True, there are some studies which show that there are
> some problems with affirmative action, but I also have seen
> information on some that have not had any real problems.  
> 
> But, I  will ask again, in the hopes of turning this into a positive
> discussion.  
	.
	.
> However, I keep asking for
> someone to come up with something better.  

  I think this is a valid request, if we who find problems with affirmative
action are not to be dismissed as whiners.  Here is a two-part suggestion, 
offered not as a panacea, but for your comments:

  1. You say above that some studies show that AA has problems and others 
     do not.  I think it important to determine what factors result in 
     (in)effectiveness.  It may be that AA is only a minor component in
     some comprehensive plan, the total impact of which is effective 
     (AA may either help or impede the overall impact); or it may be that 
     intense personal involvement of exceptional individuals makes the 
     difference between success and failure. Or it may simply be that 
     studies of AA are lousy pieces of science.  I don't know which of 
     these is true, but it would be a step beyond simply arguing the 
     philosophy of AA to look at the empirical evidence. 

     Proposal #1: let's evaluate current programs and find out what
  		  causes beneficial effects, and how.

  2. Trying to stem racism and sexism at the door of undergraduate program 
     or at the faculty club is, in my opinion, far too late.  First, by
     this point many potential academics have simply checked out early.
     Second, universities cannot realistically hope to be very far ahead 
     of society's general attitudes (for an empirical observation, just 
     consult the nearest fraternity's initiation rite). I think you have 
     to get to people earlier, in public school.  After all, it's there
     (and in the home) that these problems first take root.

     Proposal #2: overhauling the public school system will have ten
                  times the effect of overhauling the universities. 

-Darrell.
From: adam@concour.cs.concordia.ca (Adam Steele)
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
Subject: Re: Montreal news of Fabricant 1
Date: 9 Sep 92 16:13:08 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Concordia University, Montreal, Quebec

In article <1992Sep6.185619.12897@cs.yale.edu> beigel-richard@CS.YALE.EDU (Richard Beigel) writes:
>
>In article <4877@daily-planet.concordia.ca>, adam@concour.cs.concordia.ca (Adam Steele) writes:
>|> Fabrikant had asked many people at Concordia - including the rector,
>|> the dean, and his chairman - to sign his gun permit (actually the
>|> permit to transport his gun).  It seems that this was one of his
>|> intimidation tactics.
>
>The idea that following required legal procedure is an intimidation
>tactic is fascinating.  Can you elaborate on this?

In Canada, it is relatively easy to get a handgun (two letters of
reference are required).  The hard part is getting a permit to
transport the gun (this requires 5 signatures, including that of
your employer, Fabrikant was missing this signature).

Dr. Fabrikant made it a point to go round and ask for signatures
from anybody he had had difficulties with including (as was noted
in a previous post) secretaries, support staff, and administrators.

This caused enough distress that a letter of concern was passed
on to the local police, although sadly this was not acted upon.

Within the context of harassment that Dr. Fabrikant was undertaking at
Concordia - he had said on more than one occasion that he would
settle his disputes "the American way", with an accompanying
pistol-like hand gesture.  I think that shoving a gun application 
under someone's nose could probably be construed as intimidation.  

Dr. Fabrikant was not stupid.  It is possible to be within the
bounds of law, and still intimidate people.

Adam

--
~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~
Adam Steele                                  "... And there is no safeword for
adam@cs.concordia.ca         (Internet)       Doctoral Students."
adam@denovo.lacage1.ntn      (Trivianet)        - Matthew Harelick on a.s.b
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: schieber@jetson.uh.edu (Schieber, Jay D.)
Subject: Re: Hiring quotas and faculty positions (Repost #2)
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: University of Houston
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1992 21:30:00 GMT

In article <1992Sep12.064909.11480@msc.cornell.edu>, hillyard@lynx.msc.cornell.edu.UUCP (Sean Edward Hillyard,F7 Clark,50649,) writes...

[some repeated arguments deleted]


> 
>Should race/sex ever be a consideration?  There are probably a few jobs,
>but I don't think scientist or professor are among them.  It may sound
>a little harsh, but if someone if too sexist/racist to have a mentor of
>a different sex/race then that's their problem.

Sadly, there are many departments with faculty who make good mentors
only to other white males (for example).  That is *clearly* not the
students' rascism/sexism.


>SEH