From: josip@eng.umd.edu (Josip Loncaric)
Subject: Re: Croatian dreams
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 92 21:51:21 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland

In article <1992Dec12.125633.18428@husc3.harvard.edu> stojanov@husc11.harvard.edu (Milan Stojanovic) writes:
>In article <1992Dec10.190436.1759@src.umd.edu> J.Loncaric wrote:
>
>>It is blatantly incorrect to say that "the Party of Rigths won over
>>Croatia."  The majority in the Croatian parliament was commanded by
>
>When I claimed that "the Party of Rights and Clerical wing won over 
>Croatia," I was referring to the present days, as well as 1941.  
>And I should add in 1914.

Your statment is incorrect today, was incorrect in 1941 and 1914.  What
is that supposed to prove, anyway?

>>the Croat-Serb Coalition, and this persisted until the parliament had
>>been disbanded at the end of the WWI.  As you see, Croats and Croatian
>>Serbs could and did cooperate very well, until the "first Yugoslavia"
>>was formed.  
>
>>Today, Serbian nationalists want to execute their land grab.
>>They are pushing for war, grotesque violence and ethnic cleansing
>>in an effort to make coexistence of the two peoples so difficult that
>>it destroys borders which had existed for three centuries (except for
>
>	Which borders existed for three centuries?  This is really too 
>much.  You should check about how Dalmatia voted regarding becoming part of
>Croatia during the last century! When was Baranja part of 
>Croatia?  When was Ilok part of Croatia?  When was Vukovar part of 
>Croatia?  When was Krajina part of Croatia.

Of the 2,028 km of Croatia's land borders, only 200 km (about one tenth)
are sections of the border drawn for the first time since Yugoslavia
was first created in 1918.  Border changes under the communist regime
in 1945 were as a rule drawn at the expense of Croatia (loss of Srijem,
also parts of the 1939-41 Banovina Hrvatska outside present-day Croatia).

The Croatia-Bosnia border was established in the 17th century.  In eastern 
Slavonia, the border along Drava-Danube-Sava rivers was established in 1699
and in 1718.  Vukovar and Ilok are within these borders, and have been
within these borders some 100 years longer than the USA have been in 
existance.

Military Borderland was no longer military nor a borderland by the 19th
century, since Ottoman threat had receeded; thus, it was reincorporated
into Civilian Croatia in 1881.  Baranja became a part of Croatia after
the end of WWII (it had become a part of first Yugoslavia in 1918, after
being a part of Hungary).  

Regarding voting, you should check how Croatia voted in the
referendum on independence in 1991.  This is much more relevant to the
present situation than what happened 100+ years ago.

>>a brief period between two world wars, under administration of the
>>Serbian king).  
>
>Quite contrary, Croatia looked most like this under 1939 deal.

(i) the Serbian king's administration tinkered with borders for 20 years,
    before realizing that Croatia had to be given autonomy,
(ii) This autonomy, agreed to in 1939, had barely begun to be established
    when WWII changed everything.
(iii) The 1939-41 Banovina Hrvatska had largely followed the old borders,
    and the few changes it introduced in those borders did not survive 1945.
>
>And, you are jumping in your own mouth:
>
>>Mr. Stojanovic, of course there were political debates between Croats and 
>>Croatian Serbs in the 19th century.  Most of this had to do with the return 
>>of the military frontier to the civilian control.  This military frontier
>>(which came into being as Croatia was under attack by the Ottoman empire)
>>was no longer necessary since the Ottoman threat had receded.  This area,
>>which had been under direct control of the Austrian monarch, had no
>	~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>So it was not Croatia.  As a matter of fact it was not Croatia for
>many centuries.  Not to mention Dalmatia and Slavonia, as non-Croatia
>for much longer.    Dalmatia, how to define Croatian
>national interest and Croatian nation were constantly debated in 
>Croatian Assembly, but you conveniently skip those things.

Military Borderland was historically a part of Croatia, administered from
Vienna for military reasons.  Once those reasons disappeared, Military
Borderland was returned to civilian authorities in 1881.  Slavonia, in
its present form, has been a part of Croatia since 1699.  Dalmatia was
taken over by Venice in the 15th century, Austria got hold of Dalmatia 
in post-Napoleonic era.  With the division of the Austrian monarchy
into a dual Austro-Hungarian monarchy, Croatia had been divided into
regions.  With the end of the WWI, and the proclamation of the State
of Slovenes, Croats and Serbs (by the National Council of the Slovenes,
Croats and Serbs in the Austro-Hungarian Monarchy) with Zagreb as its
capital, Croatia was reunited as a constituent part of this new state.
A month later, unification with the Kingdoms of Serbia and Montenegro
followed.  In May of 1991, Croatia held a referendum on independence which
passed by 94%.  Today, Croatia is recognized as a separate state.

[in WWI:]
>Serbian politicians sought nothing, they were offered what was accepted
>as Serbian by everyone.  
>
>Milan

Huh?  What was accepted as Serbian by everyone?  In particular, Croatia
never accepted to be "Serbian."  Who is "everyone?"  Where do you get
the idea that Serbian politicians "sought nothing?"  

This sentence of yours is simply unbelievable.  First, your guys "seek
nothing", then they are offered that which they do not even seek and "everyone"
accepts this.  Then we find that "everyone" apparently does not include
the inhabitants of the regions never sought by Serbian politicians, who 
make an attrocious war in order to keep that which they did not even seek.

This is "give me all of your money and I won't kill you" laundered for
public relations purposes: "I never asked for your money, you offered
it to me and everyone accepted your money as mine."

Josip

Xref: sparky alt.politics.europe.misc:242 soc.culture.yugoslavia:10139