From: igor@cs.columbia.edu (Igor Pankevich)
Subject: Re: Can white men jump?
Organization: Columbia University Department of Computer Science
	<IGOR.92Oct13033330@krishna.cs.columbia.edu>
	<Bw2nGG.EnG@cs.columbia.edu>
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 05:08:57 GMT

In article <Bw2nGG.EnG@cs.columbia.edu> ratner@cs.columbia.edu (Michael Ratner) writes:
.........[stuff deleted]........

   >   >
   >   >"Chosen people" is _primarily_ an ethnic/racial issue. You are Jewish in
   >   >teh firs place according to your birth, and only then - according to
   >   >your beliefs. You can become Jewish being of any race, but you can't
   >   >give up your "Jewishhood" once you are born that way. Then, again,
   >   >read the Tora: the G-d promised Abraham to have his _decendants_
   >   >"Chosen People", and only later He stated the formal procedure for the
   >   >Goim to become a part of a Jewish house. That is one of the reasons
   >
   >>   Sorry, Igor, that is not true.  First of all there are no "Goim who
   >>  become a part of a Jewish house."  A jewish soul can be born among the
   >                                      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
   >>  non-Jews and then return to formal "Jewishness."  Yes, it is sometimes
   >   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
   >Well, this, strictly speaking, is the question of whether or not one
   >accepts the idea of reincarnation, and not everybody does. One might

   But I know you do ! :-)

   >argue that the phrase (in Russian translation of the Tora - sorry, I
   >don't read Hebrew) "da istrebits'a dusha ta is naroda svoego",
   >implying the severest punishment one can get (worse than being killed
   >by people, - being killed by the G-d Himself, meaning - permanently,
   >forever) means that that soul can never be born again. And that would

   What you are referring to is called "karet" and, yes, it means that
   the  soul is removed from the Jewish people.

   >imply that, once Jewish, a soul can only be reborn amongst Jews.
   >Then again, there _are_ laws stated in teh Deuteronomy about how the
   >ousider, a _non-Jew_ can _become_ a Jew! It doesn't say that the house
   >should accept this person because this person is in fact a Jew, just
   >born among the goim!

>  Because what I said is part of the Oral Tradition, and based on
>  Rabbinical commantaries to written Torah.

Then, again, not all the rabbis accept all the Rabinical commentaries :-)
And only a few, compared to the total number of rabbins, have studied
the subject well enough to have an opinion, or to write a commentary.
And you didn't answer the point I made, anyway! I am talking about the
law which tells how to deal with converts, and that law does not say
that converts are really Jews, just born among teh goim! The
commentary you are talking about is much younger, in fact, there is a
theory with some documents to support it, that says that the Zohar was
written in Spain in, I think, XV century, or so, and that it is far
from being as ancient as it proclaims to be. If you want, I'll show
you the book where I read it. Called Zohar, BTW.

   >>  hard to distinguish between such a Jewish soul and a non-Jew who is
   >>  for some reason attracted to Judaism.  That's why it is EXTREMELY hard
   >>  to convert according to Orthodox rules -- they are afraid to make a
   >>  truly disastrous mistake of considering a non-Jew to be a "real" Jew.
   >>  Also, a "ger" (convert) has always been considered to be included in
   >>  the covenant of Abraham. In fact, when "ger" is called to read the
   >>  weekly chapter of Torah he is called as "<someone> ben Abraham" or son
   >>  of Abraham.
   >
   >Then, again, I wonder: how it is possible to know for sure that the
   >person posesses a "real" Jewish soul for Orthodox Jews? Do they just
   >feel convinced after a person was attending the local sinagogue for
   >a sufficient period of time, or something? And what is that terrible
   >disaster Orthodox Jews are afraid of, do you think?

>  Well, just try to put aside your sarcasm for a moment and imagine the
>  responsibility that is laid on members of the "beit-din" (court of
>  three Rabbis) when they decide whether to accept this person as a Jew ?
>  Jews have a myriad of duties that they, and not non-Jews, have to
>  perform.  Imagine a non-Jew saying a blessing at the holiday table !
>  All the guests will have broken the law that night, because it's a law
>  to join the blessing, and blessing recited by a non-Jew just does not
>  count as something that Jews can join (I am talking about a specific
>  holiday table blessing here).
>  The worst scenario: a convert is a woman and her children cannot be real
>  Jews if she is not one.

	Same thing: how is a convert not a Jew? It is according to the
way Tora puts it...

>  Attitude of Orthodox parties in Israel towards Russian olim has
>  nothing to do with treating converts as second class Jews.  The fact
>  is that a considerable portion of Russian olim are non-Jews.  I am not
>  talking about non-Jewish spouses and children of a Jew -- these can
>  become citizens of the state of Israel but their "pyaty punkt" would
>  read "non-Jew." (Although religious parties were adamantly opposed the
>  amendment to the Law of Return that made such situation possible).  I
>  am talking about scores of non-Jews who had gotten invitations from
>  Israel and come there as formally Jews.  And also with a Russian oleh
>  it is sometimes hard to establish whether his mother was actually
>  Jewish.  All that mess lead some Orthodox parties to ask for a formal
>  Orthodox conversion of all Russian olim (they ask that for Ethiopians
>  too, you know) following the principle "better safe than sorry."

Well, to the best of my knowledge, the bad attitude of those Orthodox
parties to Russian olim began when people could actually go to the US
without much of a problem. Why would non-Jews then go to Israel?
And even if those orthodox parties only look at real non-Jews as at
people of the "second class", is it not a racism, from which the
discussion started?
BTW, could you please enlighten me (no joke intended) about the
procedure for the formal orthodox conversion?


>  P.S.  Igor, I think that this discussion doesn't quite belong here in
>  soc.culture.soviet.  Why don't we either move it to soc.culture.jewish
>  or just discuss it at lunch sometime  ?

Oh, I think it belongs here much more than, for example, the
discussion of advantages and disadvantages of American educational
system (after all, most people reading this nesgroup are Jewish). 
Again, no insult to those participating in the abovementioned
discussion, including myself, intended.
I just don't see why nobody else jumps in...

--Igor