From: strom@Watson.Ibm.Com (Rob Strom)
Subject: re: Idolatry is equal to Atheism
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 92 04:00:42 GMT
Organization: IBM Research

In article <921106110535.3f20dc12@ALF.CS.HH.AB.COM>, abvax!ALF.CS.HH.AB.COM!BENNING writes:
|> >From: strom@Watson.Ibm.Com (Rob Strom)
|> >Newsgroups: alt.messianic
|> >Subject: Re: Idolatry and atheism are equal.
|> >
|> >I have met no one associated with the public schools who fits
|> >the definition you gave above.  I didn't understand your
|> >last sentence.
|> 
|>   I don't know how to resolve this issue then Rob. I know them, and you
|>   don't. Gridlock. 

Your earlier post said:
|>  >   [1]
|> BB >>  Isn't HUMANISM a religion with "CHANCE" as the creator, and Creation
|> BB >>  itself plays god?
which you followed up with:
|>  the name, and go by another. Todays public schools are filled with people
|>  who are grouped into the definition I gave. So is the work place, and
|>  political offices. Can you say environmentalist?   

I believe I know the work place and political offices as well as
the average person.  I also know environmentalists.  
VP-elect Gore is both a politician and an environmentalist.
Do you think he meets this definition?

|>  Let me ask  any readers on A.M. who have followed this
|>   thread to post if they know of the type of humanism I have defined in the
|>   schools, public offices or even the work place. Rob, have you had contact
|>   with the NEW AGE work ethic programs which try to empower managers to
|>   tap their full potential? In the Cleveland School district (public) a
|>   brother in Yeshua had to go through a process of humiliation and lots
|>   of travel because his daughter reported some strange activity. The problem
|>   was that the student council was bused off to a weekend workshop where
|>   the children were exposed to a _mind expanding_ camp. They were told they
|>   had god potential inside of them that, when tapped, would allow them to
|>   accomplish every task they took on. The reason they had to go through many
|>   of these _meditation_ periods was to remember their god potential, which
|>   they forgot (some god potential). ALSO, they were warned NOT TO TELL
|>   anyone (parents included) what they had done and learned. This mans
|>   daughter was the only one who did tell, and she was ridiculed by those
|>   who had gone to the same camp. The school has denied ALL charges, and
|>   suggests the daughter seek help. I believe one of the other children
|>   FINALLY did come forward and confessed to what happened also.
|> 

Well I agree with you that these "retreats" are usually brainwashing
sessions.  I find them as repugnant as you do.  I should point
out that Christian organizations seem to hold retreats as much
as do secular organizations.

But while I agree that what you described in Cleveland was
very bad, I don't understand what this has to do with
Humanism, either as that term is normally understood,
or in the special definition you supplied.  They sound
like mystics, not humanists.

I am also skeptical of your assertion that this workshop/camp
was actually sponsored by the public schools.  Are you
sure this weekend activity was actually part of the 
school curriculum and not some private club advertised
in the school, sort of the way Boy/Girl Scouts is run?
Perhaps your "brother in Yeshua" or his daughter can post.


|> >|> RS>I don't wish to defend atheism here, but the above is not Jewishly
|> >|> RS>First of all, although the atheist may not be fulfilling
|> >|> RS>the commandment to worship, he still may be serving God.
|> >|> RS> ("Better that they forget Me, but remember My commandments".)
|> >|>       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
|> >[Jeremiah 2:19; Job 8:11]
|> >|>
|> >|>   Deut 6:12 says; "Be careful that you do not forget the Lord, who brought
|> >|>   you out of Egypt."
|> >|>   Deut 8:11 says; "Be careful that you do not forget the Lord your God,
|> >|>   failing to observe his commands."
|> >|>
|> >Aha, but you misread Deut 8:11.  Remember that the Biblical style
|> >is to say the same idea in two parallel ways.  I would interpret
|> >this verse as saying that "forget the Lord your God" and "failing
|> >to observe His commands" are synonyms.  The implication is
|> >that if someone *doesn't* fail to observe His commands he isn't
|> >really "forgetting" God.
|> 
|>  Oh PLEASE Rob! Enough is enough. I can't believe your going to tell me
|>  that I can forget God (though I'm not really forgetting Him) but I can
|>  remember His commandments (which is remembering Him). That makes your
|>  comment _Better that they forget Me, but remember My commandments_   a
|>  foolish statement. That is if you are saying that observance of the
|>  commandments is the same as remembering God.
|>  And I still ask you, Which is greater God or His commandments?

Funny you should ask.  This subject came up in the context of this week's
Torah portion.  (Do Messianics have the same Torah portions we do?)
In Vayera, Abraham is talking to God, and three guests approach.
Abraham *stops talking to God to perform the mitzvah of
hospitality to his guests*.  Emulating God (doing the right) was more important
than deferring to God's greater status.

How do Messianics interpret Vayera?


|> >
|> >The major reasons I've seen Jews become atheists have been:
|> >(a) Seeing the evil, cruelty, and injustice in the world
|> >    (e.g. Holocaust, famines, etc.) and being unable
|> >    to accept that a kind and merciful God would allow it.
|> >(b) They were taught to accept some irrational dogmatic
|> >    interpretation of the Bible which they could not
|> >    square with their rational understanding.
|> 
|>   Sounds like rebellion Against God to me. Scripture clearly explains these
|>   things, and a heart that is willing to be circumcised to the Almighty
|>   can accept them.

Well I haven't become an atheist.   But then again I haven't
had to endure the unspeakable horrors that the Holocaust
survivors had to endure either.  

Scripture does not "clearly" explain these things.  The
closest explanation is in the book of Job.  But that's
a far cry from saying that the Bible explains the Holocaust.

And the rationalists' "rebellion" is not against God, either.
It is against doctrinaire religious "teachers" who claim
to have a monopoly on the understanding of God.  Your
religion has in the past taught that Scripture is inconsistent
with the earth going around the sun.  Your religion has
in the more recent past taught that Scripture is inconsistent
with the evolution of species, and a few of your coreligionists
teach that even today.  Many people have been led
to reject religion in order to accept the evidence of
reason.


-- 
Rob Strom, strom@watson.ibm.com, (914) 784-7641
IBM Research, 30 Saw Mill River Road, P.O. Box 704, Yorktown Heights, NY  10598