HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
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Date:         Wed, 12 Aug 1992 09:49:39 PDT
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         Rick Adams <adamsr@NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: GRE debate
X-To:         PSYCGRAD%UOTTAWA.BITNET@pucc.Princeton.EDU
              92 8:41 am

	Ok, time to put in my two cents worth.

	In his excellent Statistics text _Statistics: A computer integrated
approach_ (ok, so I'm a stat nut), Alan Kvanli used data from a study which
was conducted at Brookhaven Univesity. In that study 1250 graduate student
records were examined and the following information was recorded and
analyzed:

		VGRE: Verbal GRE
	QGRE: Quantitative GRE
	GRGPA: Graduate GPA
	UGGPA: Undergrad GPA
	LSINDEX: Score on Life Satisfaction Index Questionnaire
	AGE: Age
	SEX: Sex (0=Male, 1=Female)
	MARITAL: Marital status (1=Never Married, 2=Ever-married,
				 3=Divorced, 4=Remarried)

	Of interest here, of course, are the first four variables.

	Without going into a lot of the subject matter of the book, let me
basically present the conclusions that are relevant to this discussion.

	Dealing with a Multiple Regression model, Kvanli developed the
following equation from a subset of the sample data (I've entered the data
into my computer in its entirety, and the model that Systat generates is not
very far from the one Kvanli presents). Here is the equation he developed:

	Y^=-.395+.0031X1+.00059X2+.4457X3

	In which X1=VGRE
		 X2=QGRE
		 X3=UGPA

	And of course the variable of interest (Y) is the GRGPA.

 	Presumably a similar model is in use at most Universities. Is the
use of the GRE valid???

--
    rick.adams on GEnie   /|\        You are right from your side,
     adamsr@netcom.com  /  |  \        And I am right from mine.
    adamsr@irie.ais.org \ /|\ /  We're both just one too many mornings,
   adamsr@norwich.bitnet  \|/  And a thousand miles behind. (c Bob Dylan)
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Date:         Fri, 14 Aug 1992 08:52:00 PST
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         "Philip Richins, Continuing Education, CWU,
              (509) 963-1504" <RICHINSP@CWU.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Cultural Bias or Cultural Diversity?

And how long was Latin the international language? Centuries!
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Date:         Thu, 13 Aug 1992 15:35:00 EDT
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         KMORGAN@WHEATNMA.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Psychometrics

 At my University there is one professor in particular whom you know
what
 kind of grade you're going to get from the moment you walk in the
door, fi
 he knows you. He is one of our primary graduate prof.s adn every
graduate
 student in our program must take hime for at least one class. Yes,
there are
 objective parts to his testing. But, the subjective parts of his
testing seem
 to outweigh the objective parts. By the way, his specialty is
testing and
 measurement. He judges your ability and you can be guaranteed not
to do better
 in his class then he believes is possible for you. Yes, you can do
worse then
 he expects, but if he sees you as an exceptional student you can
hardly go
 wrong. Is this an exception to our system, or is this common?


Ah, I do so love the tenure system!!!  :-}
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Date:         Thu, 13 Aug 1992 16:38:58 EDT
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
Comments:     Resent-From: Matthew Simpson <054340@UOTTAWA>
Comments:     Originally-From: Revised List Processor (1.7c)
              <LISTSERV@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         "Matthew Simpson" <054340@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
Subject:      Message

Could you all take a look at this message I got from the Listserv?

O======================================================================O
 | _  l  _  * Matthew Simpson          * BITNET:                      |
 |  \_l_/   * School of Psychology     * 054340@uottawa.bitnet        |
 |    l     * 145 Jean Jacques Lussier * INTERNET:                    |
 |    l     * Ottawa, Ontario K1N 8P5  * 054340@acadvm1.uottawa.ca    |
O======================================================================O
----------------------------Original message----------------------------
Daily mailing threshold (50) exceeded for list PSYCGRAD. Mailing operations
are being discontinued until a "FREE PSYCGRAD" command is received.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is not and has not been a problem.  But it could be.
Please help us try to keep the conversation held on PSYCGRAD
most relevant to the goal at hand.

The rule is, because we are graduate students in psychology
anything we say is relevant toward being a graduate student
in psychology, right?  Maybe so.  Maybe not.  I'm no one to
talk.  I've got the highest average number of postings per
day then anyone (or however the stats go).  It goes with the
job.  Please attend to the following requests.

Please consider whether the number of postings you send on a
given topic can be decreased.  Often, by summarizing what you
would like to say on a given topic, your words gain more weight.

Please consider when your message might be best sent privately.
The address of each sender is at the top of each posting.
However, if you are contributing to the topic at hand, please
do not hold back.

I hope this helps.  Have fun, everyone!
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Posted-Date: Thu, 20 Aug 92 19:13:35 EDT
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Date:         Thu, 20 Aug 1992 19:13:35 EDT
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         Eric Zorrilla <zorrilla@CATTELL.PSYCH.UPENN.EDU>
Subject:      Re: APA Report
X-To:         PSYCGRAD%UOTTAWA.BitNet@pucc.princeton.edu

This may be of particular interest to some clinical folk out there...

Bob Resnick from Div.28 (psychopharmacology) of APA reported on e-mail about
a committee report (pre-convention) regarding a new approach to psychopharma-
cology for practitioners.  The committee suggested a three-tier approach
to training/licensing:

	Tier 1)  Clinician understands biochemistry of psychoactive agents
that may be prescribed by other health-care providers and appropriateness
of certain drugs to certain disorders (sorry, non-medical modelers out there).

	Tier 2)  Clinician has more formal training of appropriate doses,
potential side effects and interactions of these drugs and in alliance/
consultation with a licensed medical doctor has limited prescription
privileges.

	Tier 3)  Clinician is fully trained in the prescription of psychoactive
drugs including their contraindications, side effects, dosages, etc. etc. and
can prescribe them autonomously (I assumed there is some sort of licensing
test to establish this).

He said that this would likely be brought up as a policy proposal at the
convention (though I didn't make it).  Anyone here any followup on this?

All I can say is, it's about time!

Eric Zorrilla
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Date:         Fri, 14 Aug 1992 19:09:40 CDT
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         Mike Babyak <HOPE@UKANVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: spss list

If you have trouble getting subscribed to the SPSS list mentioned
earlier on this list, you might try another SPSS list
at UGA.  You can subscribe by sending : SUBSCRIBE SPSSX-L YOUR NAME
Send the message to LISTSERV AT UGA
I've found this list to be very helpful for all sorts of things.

MIKE BABYAK UNIVERSITY OF KANSAS         *THERE'S NO PLACE LIKE HOME*
HOPE@UKANVM
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Date:         Wed, 12 Aug 1992 12:22:00 EDT
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         KMORGAN@WHEATNMA.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Psychometrics

In a study of ten years of grad students in the Psychology
department at the University of California at Davis, the single best
predictor of "performance" in graduate school, where performance was
defined (as per the wishes of the program) as "Speed through the
program" was having a fellowship.  And the single best predictor of
having a fellowship was having received one before.  No other
"academic" variables were significant, although of these, undergrad
GPA came closest to predicting performance (ahead of GRE scores!)
        By the way, the physiological/biopsych folks were
significantly more likely to get fellowships.
        --Kathy
        kmorgan@wheatnma
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Date:         Fri, 14 Aug 1992 13:24:00 PDT
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         UNGER@MVSA.USC.EDU
Subject:      Re: cheating
X-To:         "Psychology Graduate Students Discussion Group List"
              <PSYCGRAD%UOTTAWA.BITNET@VM.USC.EDU>

Don--
In your opinion, what constitutes cheating on citations?
The story of your prof was an obvious case of cheating, but
where exactly do you draw the line?  What if you find a paper
in Psychlit, see it cited in some other places, have a pretty
good idea of the main ideas of the paper, but can't find it
in the library?  Are you absolutely positively not allowed
to cite it until you find it and read it?  What if you find
it, Xerox it, skim it, figure out the main ideas, and put it
on your desk so you can read it more thoroughly later, but then
other things come up and you never get a chance?  What if you
do actually read it, but you only understand part of
it, and you just cite the part you understood and ignore
the rest?  How do you know if you're cheating?  Are there
rules for this?
Jennifer (starting to get a guilty conscience but I REALLY
need to finish this paper and after all, I did Xerox the
articles and read at least most of each one, and....)
From: tmsellers@UALR.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.psycgrad
Subject: RE: Cultural Bias or Cultural Diversity?
Date: 13 Aug 92 15:04:00 GMT
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
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 Kathy,
        I wholeheartedly agree with you. If you are going to compete in an
 American school, then you need to know the language and customs of Americans.
 We have a Chinese man who arrived here last Fall. His first trip out of his
 country. He spoke little English. Everybody else felt sorry for him, made
 special concessions for him, etc. Because of this he was graded differently
 from everyone else. He was let into the program, partially because of the
 novelty. It is easy to say our programs are culturally biased, but you can't
 separate the culture from academia.
        Anyway, my two cents worth.
        Tammy
        tmsellers@ualr.edu
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Date:         Wed, 12 Aug 1992 10:33:16 EDT
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         Gerri Oppedisano <gerri@WATSON.IBM.COM>
X-To:         PSYCGRAD@ACADVM1.UOTTAWA.CA

> In response to Gerri's message:
> Stephanie asked for "proof" that other methods of assessment are any more
 valid
> as predictors of performance than GRE results.  The fact that "it seems to
 make
> practical sense" is irrelevant.

Not exactly.. Even in graduate math classes, you don't go off to prove
the obvious. However, your point is well taken. I wasn't setting out to
"prove" anything, was merely stating what I was stating, that it seems
that relying HEAVILY on GRE scores doesn't seem a good measure just
because it seems unfair and illogical. I understand the cases FOR the
test, just not the use of scores on these tests as a major factor for
getting into grad school.

> It seems to make practical sense that one
> cannot feel pain in a limb which does not exist, yet plenty of amputees feel
> pain!

To me this is different. People suffering from a tramatic experience can
act in way and feel things that don't seem to "make practical sense"..
that's expected. Professors reviewing applicants should be expected to
make practical sense.. but maybe that's too idealistic. I don't think
that GREs should necessarily be wiped out completely, but it should be
treated as one bit of information. I don't believe it is treated that
way. I believe it used to weed out applicants. Some applications aren't
even LOOKed at if the GRE score isn't up to par.

> Also, on the subject of personal interviews: if it is not fair to base grad.
> school admissions on performance in a period of 3 hours (for the GREs) then is
> it fair to base it on an interview which lasts a lot less time than this?
 What
> about the people who do not perform well in one-to-one situations like this?

Yes, you're absolutely right here, and I agree now.. I wasn't thinking
thoroughly when I suggested that, but perhaps the answer would be to
interview AND look at GRE scores! Or at least interview those who apply
for an interview.. If you're going to have one biased method for choosing,
why not have another and balance them against each other, counting each
as a small bit of info? Interviewing, by the way, would be done with a
number of professors, not just one, and can be lengthy. Interviews seem
closer to real life situations than a GRE exam.. Why would I want a therapist
who is a master at "manipulating the English language" anyway?? (I'm being
just a bit facetious here..)

> But what alternatives do we have?

Hmmm.. I certainly don't think it's easy, but there should be a better way
than just GRE scores. I don't think they are general ability tests. I think
they are testing for specific skills and for quickness. It's questionable
whether the specific skills that are being tested are the basic skills needed.
I think that's my issue.

gerri
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Date:         Thu, 13 Aug 1992 15:06:28 EDT
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         "Matthew Simpson" <054340@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
Subject:      RE: Cultural Bias or Cultural Diversity?

On Thu, 13 Aug 1992 15:01:06 EDT Monika Trzcinska said:
>Couldnt it be that this Chinese student was much more "talented" or better
>at what he was doing than his English-speaking classmates?  The reason why
>he couldnt express himself in your language does not mean he did not know
>the material.

Another case I experienced was that of an foreign student trying to take
a class in experiential psychotherapy.  He clearly could not understand
what the teacher was saying.  He would understand the what the topic was
but he could not understand the message the professor was saying.

For example, the professor, in one class, was teaching for over an hour
on the idea that there is no such thing as a "problem" in his version
of experiential psychotherapy.  Therefore, the question regarding the
best method of treatment for depression was irrelevant.  After lecturing
for over an hour, that there is no best method of treatment in his
version of experiential psychotherapy because he actually does not
treat a problem, he was faced with a very interesting question.

My foreign classmate asked, "Professor Mahrer, how would you use
experiential psychotherapy to treat depression?"  A long pregnant
pause came after that question.  We all were just sitting there
realizing just how much this person did not understand the lecture.
I couldn't help but feel angry because other students were denied
access to the class because it was too full.

I don't know if this matters.  The student was from Iran and did
not have a good command of the English language.  I don't think
he should have been occupying a chair in a graduate-level class
on psychotherapy.

O======================================================================O
 | _  l  _  * Matthew Simpson          * BITNET:                      |
 |  \_l_/   * School of Psychology     * 054340@uottawa.bitnet        |
 |    l     * 145 Jean Jacques Lussier * INTERNET:                    |
 |    l     * Ottawa, Ontario K1N 8P5  * 054340@acadvm1.uottawa.ca    |
O======================================================================O
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Date:         Wed, 12 Aug 1992 12:30:00 EDT
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         KMORGAN@WHEATNMA.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Test Taking Skills; is it true that...

From Ramsey, Philip H., Ramsey, Patricia P. and Barnes, Michael J.
(1987).  Effects of Student Confidence and Item Difficulty on Test
Score Gains Due to Answer Changing.  Teaching of Psychology 14(4):
206-210:

        A meta-analysis of 39 studies reported that MC test takers
are more likely to gain than lose by changing answers (ref in lit
review of this article).  This paper reports (not surprisingly) that
gains due to answer changing are greater when students are highly
confident about the item changed, but no effect of item difficulty.
        Hope this adds to the database!
        --kathy
        kmorgan@wheatnma.bitnet
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Posted-Date: Thu, 20 Aug 92 19:00:23 EDT
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Date:         Thu, 20 Aug 1992 19:00:23 EDT
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         Eric Zorrilla <zorrilla@CATTELL.PSYCH.UPENN.EDU>
Subject:      Re: CAGE Reference(s)
X-To:         PSYCGRAD%UOTTAWA.BitNet@pucc.princeton.edu
              20, 92 1:24 pm

Just to clarify (as I may want to look at this reference for my own purposes):

	Does the CAGE screen for alcoholism, alcohol abuse or alcohol use?
(At least, what was it validated to screen for).

Eric
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Date:         Thu, 13 Aug 1992 11:52:00 PST
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         "CLSTAD::LDUNN" <ldunn%clstad.decnet@CSUPOMONA.EDU>
Subject:      Re: manic depression
X-To:         psycgrad <psycgrad%uottawa.bitnet@pucc.princeton.edu>

Matthew, You said that stimulants are often subscribed in conjuction with
lithium. I found this interesting because the gentleman that I referred to
told me that he was not suppose to ingest any stimulants (coffee, chocolate)
while on Lithium. Now I wonder why stimulants would/would not be subscribed.
Linda
Go Raiders!
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Date:         Mon, 17 Aug 1992 13:17:58 CST
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         MICHELLE HALL <GR4522@SIUCVMB.BITNET>
Subject:      Computer Languages

Next week I will be starting a readings class, where we will be learning a
programming language (our program requires two computer classes).  I
have a choice between Pascal and C++.  I would appreciate any info anybody has
on either of the languages.  I have no experience with either one, but
would like to know some of the benefits and drawbacks of each before
I make the choice.  Also, I was wondering if other programs have
computer programming requirements.


Michelle Hall
Southern Illinois University at Carbondale
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Date:         Thu, 13 Aug 1992 09:56:27 EDT
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         Gerri Oppedisano <gerri@WATSON.IBM.COM>
X-To:         PSYCGRAD@ACADVM1.UOTTAWA.CA

>      And, a final note, if you are going to flunk a test on the basis of ONE
> item and one item only, what does that say about your overall ability?

Nothing! That's the whole point! ... But, granted, I think some of your
other points are well taken. I don't think the ETS originated from Satin..
maybe the Prodigal Son, but not Satin. (-:  Anyway, I do think there needs
to be cutoffs somewhere, but saying, "Well, but everyone looks good according
to the other data, so let's have them take this test and take only the ones
who pass" just doesn't seem good enough. There's a cutoff for sympathy too.
Why don't you (the advocates of the GRE) run studies on how well GRE scores
correlate with graduate grades?

Ok, this is DEFINITELY my LAST post on this subject.. I promise!
Sigh,
gerri
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.psycgrad
From: amead@s.psych.uiuc.edu (Alan Mead)
Subject: Re: (no subject given)
Organization: UIUC Department of Psychology
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 06:29:47 GMT

Gerri Oppedisano <gerri@WATSON.IBM.COM> writes:

>>         Y^=-.395+.0031X1+.00059X2+.4457X3
>>
>>         In which X1=VGRE
>>                  X2=QGRE
>>                  X3=UGPA
>>
>>         And of course the variable of interest (Y) is the GRGPA.
>>
>>       Presumably a similar model is in use at most Universities. Is the
>> use of the GRE valid???

>Call me a skeptic, but I can't believe that universities use this
>model on all applications. I have a friend whose mother works at a

No real study to cite, but here at the u of Illinois-Urbana, they 
give you a formula (suspiciously like the above) except that Y is
called the PAI and you are told not to apply if your PAI is below
X unless you feel that you have extensuating circumstances or 
otherwise might be a special case.  I don't recall what X is.

You could ask them where they got their numbers.  They say the
system is benificial for the student because they don't waste their
$30 if they won't get in.

Also, Robyn Dawes has, I believe, done a lot with graudate admissions.  
Does he mention any of that work in "The Robust Beauty of Improper
Linear Models"?  That paper can be found in _Heuristics and Biases_
by Kahneman, Slovic & Tversky (I hope I spelled those names right:)

-alan
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Date:         Thu, 13 Aug 1992 10:11:00 EDT
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         KMORGAN@WHEATNMA.BITNET
Subject:      Psychometrics and Fellowships

I'm not really familiar with the idea of fellowships- how do you get
one in the first place?

In our program they are competitive--you might be given one on the
basis of exceptionally high GRE scores (!!) and entering GPA.
Minority status can help here, too.  Others are based on research
proposals later on in the program--those are REALLY competitive,
because you're up against grads submitting research proposals from
ALL disciplines.
From: 054470@UOTTAWA.BITNET (Monika Trzcinska)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.psycgrad
Subject: re: manic depression
Date: 14 Aug 92 17:46:48 GMT
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
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Jennifer,
Where did you get a feeling that I was being annoyed by what you said ?????
"Au contraire", I merely stated the story that you presented was ANALOGOUS to
the one written by Oliver Sacks.
Many drugs besides Lithium or Haloperidol will not only dampen "the bad"
feeling, but also "the good feeling".  Psychopharmacology has still a long
way to go... and so does neurophysiological research.

:)


                                 _
    ) (    Monika Trzcinska    _- o   ) (   054470@ACADVM1.UOTTAWA.CA
   )   (----------------------- o o  )   (----------------------------
    ) (                        -_ o   ) (
                                 -
 "Before we can have applied science, we must have a science to apply"

                                                              D.O.Hebb
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