HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: dela@ee.rochester.edu (Del Armstrong)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting
Subject: Re: Stay off the rudder!
Date: 1 Oct 92 20:11:11 GMT
Reply-To: dela@ee.rochester.edu (Del Armstrong)
Organization: University of Rochester - Dept of Electrical Engineering

In article <1992Sep30.162333.23749@umbc3.umbc.edu>, robie@umbc4.umbc.edu (Mr. William Robie; POSI (GRAD)) writes:
|>Some even suggested that the safest way to descend through clouds was to
|>induce a spin, then recover as you broke out.  I never followed the
|>wisdom of this unless, of course you happened to be over the only crack
|>in the cloud cover and you could see that it was safe to descend at that
|>one particular spot.

I've seen articles in Soaring which advocate spinning through a cloud
deck if you get stuck on top. I have to admit, it seems like a
reasonable procedure to me ... if you know that your plane has a safe,
stable spin.

In my mind, the advantage of a spin (in some planes) versus trusting
the inherent stability of the plane, is that you know the plane is in
a stable configuration (in some planes). As long as you keep it in the
spin, you know that it won't drift into a spiral dive (in some
planes). Especially in turbulent conditions, I'd worry that flying
hands off might degenerate into a spiral dive. Also, in a spin you
come straight down, which may be an advantage if you know you're over
low terrain surrounded by higher terrain.

Of course in some planes, you're asking for big trouble if you spin
it. In such a plane, your only option may be to trust it's inherent
stability, as described in the quote above.  That's one of the reasons
why it pays to know the spin characteristics of the plane you're
flying.

|>The *best* method is to stay the heck out of clouds *and* t-storms!

Seconded!

	Del Armstrong

 Fast:      dela@ee.rochester.edu
 Slow:      {decvax,garp,harvard,hombre,rutgers}!rochester!ur-valhalla!dela
 Slowest:   University of Rochester
            Dept. of Electrical Engineering
            Rochester, NY   14627

"What if there were no hypothetical situations?" -Jeff Sauder
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting
From: cep@taligent.com (Christophe Pettus)
Subject: Re: Logging (Argh): CFI flight instruction in IMC?
Organization: Taligent, a little subsidiary of two really big companies.
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 22:01:01 GMT

In article <69636@hydra.gatech.EDU> randy@khan.gatech.edu (Randal T. Abler) writes:
>Another logging question - and I haven't seen this one asked recently:
>as a CFI, (but no CFII), can you give dual instruction to somebody 
>while
>	1) Under simulated instruments (hood)
>	2) While on an IFR flight plane
>	3) While IMC

Yes to all three.  There are no restrictions in parts 61 or 91 as to
the flight conditions in which a CFI may give instruction.  It's probably
not a good idea, since one of the major parts of CFII training is how
to give flight instruction to a student while still scanning for traffic
and making sure the plane stays right side up in IMC, but it is allowed
by the regulations.

>The obvious(?) limitations under the FARs are that a CFII is required
>to give the 20 hours instruction toward the instrument rating, and
>to give an instrument competency check.

Correct.

>I've gotten a split answer locally - some argue that a CFI can give dual
>in any of the above conditions (assuming catagory/class/medical/currency
>issues are satisfied), it just can't be counted toward the 
>required 20 hours instrument instruction.  Others have said no, only in
>VMC when not on an IFR flight plan.

They are overstating the privileges of the CFII rating.  A CFI may give
flight instruction in any circumstances where the CFI can legally be
acting PIC (and some, arguably, where the CFI can't be, like a CFI with
an expired medical giving instruction to a private pilot, but we'll
skip over that).
--
-- Christophe

"Black is the color of non-conformity.  Everyone has to have it."
	T-shirt company executive
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting
From: calamity@acca.nmsu.edu (Calamity Jane)
Subject: Re: Private Pilots
Organization: New Mexico State University
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1992 17:43:19 GMT

Hi,
	Just wanted to let you know that it took me about 3 months
to get my private pilot's license.  I did this as I was going to 
school, so you may be able to  do it quicker, I could not say for 
sure though.  The cost was about $2500.  Hope this helps you out.

Jane
From: hdnea@usho92.hou281.chevron.com (David Neal)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting
Subject: Re: wanna be a pilot with eye-glasses???
Date: 5 Oct 92 19:19:30 GMT
Organization: Chevron

In article <1992Oct5.160155.18100@porthos.cc.bellcore.com> patter@dasher.uucp (24224-guthrie) writes:
>In article <1992Oct3.232600.5132@nic.funet.fi> asunta@convex.csc.FI (Miika Asunta) writes:
>>
>>I have about -6 in both eyes.
>>
>>Have I any chance to become a private pilot?
>
>I don't know what this means.
>
>You have to have 20-200 or better uncorrected vision, correctable to
>20-20 to get a third-class medical certificate.  Waivers are possible
>if you're close to this, but they're very hard to get.
>

I don't know where you got the 20/200 limit? The FARs? Hearsay?
WAG?

Try ~20/450 in one eye and 20/500 in the other. 

I had to take the eye exam portion of the medical
twice, once without corrective lenses, and once with.

My 3rd class medical reads 
	"HOLDER SHALL WEAR CORRECTIVE LENSES WHILE EXERCISING THE
         PRIVILIGES OF HIS AIRMANS CERTIFICATE"


No waiver, no muss, no fuss.


>patter@dasher.cc.bellcore.com


-- 
David Neal -- hdnea@hou281.chevron.com 
Conserve water, California's deserts need more cotton farms.
Barbie says, Take quaaludes in gin and go to a disco right away!
 But Ken says, WOO-WOO!!  No credit at ``Mr. Liquor''!!
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting
From: doshay@ursa.arc.nasa.gov (David Doshay)
Subject: Re: wanna be a pilot with eye-glasses???
Organization: NASA-Ames Biocomputation Center
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 17:42:20 GMT

In article <23540@hacgate.SCG.HAC.COM>, kelly@ipld01.hac.com (Keith Kelly) writes:
|> In article <1992Oct3.232600.5132@nic.funet.fi> asunta@convex.csc.FI (Miika Asunta) writes:
|> >
|> >I have about -6 in both eyes.
|> >
|> >Have I any chance to become a private pilot?
|> 
|> I concur with others in saying that all one needs is a 'Statement of 
|> Demonstrated Ability' or waiver.  This can apply to eyesight or just about
|> anything else.  I don't know the cost (I got mine when I was in the Air
|> Force) but I've had mine for 20 years and have yet to had an examiner ask
|> to even see my waiver when I get my second class examination.  Since there 
|> is no expiration date on the waiver, I would presume that the examiner would 
|> at least check to see that the current eye prescription is within the limits 
|> that are stated on the waiver or get a new waiver.  And I have 20/200 in one
|> eye and 20/400 in the other!!
|> 

I was just pouring over the FARs last night, and in addition to the 20/xxx
details, there are also explicit references to diopter corrections and 
all sorts of exceptions. Of course, the details are different for class 1,2,or 3
medicals. 

When in doubt, get out a copy of the FARs and look it up.

David		doshay@soma.arc.nasa.gov

The thought police insist I tell you:
my thoughts, not NASA's
From: braner@trantor.emba.uvm.edu (Moshe Braner)
Subject: Re: Partial panel ? (was: Re: Stay off the rudder!)
Summary: no gyros, no IFR
Organization: University of Vermont, EMBA Computer Facility
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 13:05:17 GMT

As is demonstrated to every instrument student, one CANNOT keep control
of an airplane for very long (more than a minute or so) without at least
one gyroscopic instrument.  The basic problem: once you're in a turn,
you can't tell which way you are turning, and thus cannot level the wings.
In some cases you can, using clues like a faint view of the sun through
the clouds, or wisps of cloud that are distinct.  But in true IMC where
all one sees is a uniform gray, forget it!

A standard modern light airplane has two gyros powered by vacuum (the AI and
DG) plus one powered by electricity (the turn indicator).  That's for
redundancy.  Every airplane and glider SHOULD in my view have at least
the turn indicator, but that is not required by FARs for VFR flight, and
is prohibited by the rules of glider competition.  (IMHO one should not
fly gliders in wave over clouds without a T&B _and_ training in its use!)

It is amazing that in this modern age people think that old airplanes
cannot spin.  Quite the contrary: in the old days (say 1940) spin
behavior was an important part of the certification of both airplanes
and pilots.  An old Aeronca spins just beautifully, thank you!
(I didn't spin mine, though, but did install a T&B in it!)

- Moshe

PP-ASEL,G,IA
C172 N3714L

-- 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Moshe Braner                          braner@emily.emba.uvm.edu
47 McGee Road, Essex, VT 05452        (802) 879-0876                        
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting
From: patter@dasher.uucp (24224-guthrie)
Subject: Re: wanna be a pilot with eye-glasses???
Organization: Bellcore, Livingston, NJ
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 92 16:01:55 GMT

In article <1992Oct3.232600.5132@nic.funet.fi> asunta@convex.csc.FI (Miika Asunta) writes:
>
>I have about -6 in both eyes.
>
>Have I any chance to become a private pilot?

I don't know what this means.

You have to have 20-200 or better uncorrected vision, correctable to
20-20 to get a third-class medical certificate.  Waivers are possible
if you're close to this, but they're very hard to get.

patter@dasher.cc.bellcore.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
                    |        Murphy's Laws of Combat
                    | . Professional soldiers are predictable, but the
George Patterson -  |    world is full of amateurs.
                    | . The easy way is always mined.
                    |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting,rec.aviation.ifr
From: jis@panix.com (Jack Szwergold)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting
Subject: Re: Private Pilots
Date: 1 Oct 92 19:15:04 GMT
Organization: Panix, NYC

In <1992Oct1.160812.392@news.unomaha.edu> dworden@cwis.unomaha.edu (David Paul Worden) writes:

>I am interested in getting a fixed wing private pilots license as well as a
>rotorcraft (helocopter) pilots license.  I would like to know approx. how long
>it takes to get one, as well as, an approx. cost.  Please post a response or 
>e-mail me at dworden@cwis.unomaha.edu.

Please mail me any of the above mentioned info also.  I am very interested
in getting certified for a helicopter license....

Jack
jis@panix.com
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting
From: hchong@netcom.com (Hoi Chong)
Subject: FAA waiver (Re: wanna be a pilot with eye-glasses???) 
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1992 22:58:58 GMT

From article <X1a5RB1w165w@hstorm.hacktic.nl>, by north@hstorm.hacktic.nl (Ad Timmering):
> Hi Miika,
> 
> asunta@convex.csc.FI (Miika Asunta) writes:
>> I have about -6 in both eyes.
>> Have I any chance to become a private pilot?
> As far as I know, YES. My father has -5.25 in both eyes (+/- 0.25) and he
> definitely passed his medical check, they made no problem of it. He can NOT
> become a commercial pilot, but that wasn't really his intention anyway. :-)

When I passed my 3rd class medical, I asked and the doctor replied that
the only way I am going to get 2nd class is to get a FAA waiver.  To get
that waiver I have to go for a thorough eye examination to ensure I 
don't have any eye problem (other than short-sightedness).  Has anybody 
done this?  How is it?  How costly is it?  How hard is it to "pass"?

Why would I want a waiver?  After all no company will hire me when they
see it.  Well, I thought at least I could get CFI, and reserve teaching
as an option (I make quite a bit more than a CFI, so I am not going to
dive into it). 
Xref: sparky rec.aviation.piloting:47 rec.aviation.ifr:27
From: bdboyle@erenj.com (Bryan D. Boyle)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting,rec.aviation.ifr
Subject: Re: Partial panel ? (was:Re: Stay off the rudder!)
Date: 6 Oct 92 12:10:19 GMT
Article-I.D.: erenj.1992Oct6.121019.5459
Organization: Exxon Research and Engineering Co., NJ

In article <WD.92Oct6114803@sam.cs.tu-berlin.de> wd@cs.tu-berlin.de (Wolfgang Diestelkamp) writes:
>
>This is one thing I have never really understood; I know (in principal,
>and I have tried it a couple of times with instructor), how to fly
>on this sort of partial panel, but the question that always came
>up was: The "needle" (or the turn indicator [not the ball]) is a gyroscope
>instrument, so if the vacuum system fails, how come this one does not fail ?
>-- 
In most cases (now, I know there are vacuum needle and balls...I had one
in a '63 cherokee...) the turn coordinator or turn needle is an electric
gyro.  Why?  Diverse power (sic) sources.  If your vacuum fails, it
won't affect the electric gyro. If the electrical system goes south, 
the vacuum gyros will continue to run.  If both fail in IMC, then,
well, (how do I put this delicately...) you got REAL problems, sir.

Bryan D. Boyle   |Opinions are mine, not Exxon's
Senior Engineer  |PVT/ASEL/IA
Exxon Research & |Former Owner: Cherokee N7068W
Engineering Co.  |bdboyle@erenj.com
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting,rec.aviation.ifr
From: medin@catbyte.b30.ingr.com (Dave Medin)
Subject: Re: Partial panel ? (was: Re: Stay off the rudder!)
Reply-To: medin@catbyte.b30.ingr.com
Organization: Intergraph Corporation, Huntsville AL
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 19:08:40 GMT

In article <1992Oct6.130517.26920@uvm.edu>, braner@trantor.emba.uvm.edu (Moshe Braner) writes:
|> As is demonstrated to every instrument student, one CANNOT keep control
|> of an airplane for very long (more than a minute or so) without at least
|> one gyroscopic instrument.  The basic problem: once you're in a turn,
|> you can't tell which way you are turning, and thus cannot level the wings.
   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^     

Not true. The compass, when moving though headings of 090 to 270 (northern
hemisphere) does a VERY good job at telling you the direction of turn
in combo with a prepared Mr. Brain. South, of course, is the best as
the compass is most "sensitive" to heading changes (remember the NOSE
rule). It doesn't give the angle of bank worth a hoot, though. And, 
for me it requires some reverse transpositional thinking as it
operates "opposite" of the way I'm used to seeing the old Cessna
edge-card DG's.

My instrument instructor simulated full vacuum and electric failure
when in a not-too-severe attitude and bankand let me recover. Again,
I inched towards South using airspeed and altitude for approximate pitch and
the compass for neutralizing bank and then applied slight corrections
after reaching South. We then commenced a 500 fpm descent based on
memorized power settings and airspeed. The whole maneuver lasted
about 10 minutes, with the instructor calling it off. I guess this
invalidates your first statement, too. Sorry about that.

BTW, I did my training at night, with no diffused light sources (like
sunlight) to give any clues.

Kershner's books (both the Private and Advanced pilot handbooks)
outline how to use a compass to get you out of a jam. This was part
of my private and instrument training. It works.

-- 
 --------------------------------------------------------------------
       Dave Medin			Phone:	(205) 730-3169 (w)
    Intergraph Corp.				(205) 837-1174 (h)
       M/S GD3004
  Huntsville, AL 35894 		Internet: medin@catbyte.b30.ingr.com
				UUCP:  ...uunet!ingr!b30!catbyte!medin

   ******* Everywhere You Look (at least around my office) *******

 * The opinions expressed here are mine (or those of my machine)
Xref: sparky rec.aviation.piloting:45 rec.aviation.ifr:25
From: sav@nanette.sni.de (Dr.Savory)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting,rec.aviation.ifr
Subject: Re: Stay off the rudder!
Date: 6 Oct 92 06:37:44 GMT
Organization: Siemens Nixdorf Info.Sys. AG, Paderborn, Germany

Spin thru? sounds like a pretty good way to die B-{
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting
From: hchong@netcom.com (Hoi Chong)
Subject: How many times to pass? 
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1992 20:28:36 GMT

Just checking, how many times does it usual take to pass the check ride?
Email me and if there is more respone, I will post the stat.  Or is
there an official stat? 
Xref: sparky rec.aviation.piloting:37 rec.aviation.ifr:20
From: patter@dasher.uucp (24224-guthrie)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting,rec.aviation.ifr
Subject: Re: Partial panel ? (was:Re: Stay off the rudder!)
Date: 6 Oct 92 19:57:34 GMT
Organization: Bellcore, Livingston, NJ

In article <WD.92Oct6114803@sam.cs.tu-berlin.de> wd@cs.tu-berlin.de (Wolfgang Diestelkamp) writes:

>This is one thing I have never really understood; I know (in principal,
>and I have tried it a couple of times with instructor), how to fly
>on this sort of partial panel, but the question that always came
>up was: The "needle" (or the turn indicator [not the ball]) is a gyroscope
>instrument, so if the vacuum system fails, how come this one does not fail ?

The turn & bank indicator on my C-150 is electrically powered. Wil Neubert
Aircraft Supply catalogue does list a vacuum powered model, so some
aircraft do have them, but it's electric in most. Also, electric artificial
horizons exist (only cost your left arm), but most aircraft have vacuum
powered units for standard equipment. I wouldn't be surprised to find
that the FARs require that one unit be powered in the opposite manner of
the other.


By the way, "gyro" != "vacuum".

patter@dasher.cc.bellcore.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
                    |
George Patterson -  | "Zero Defects": The result of shutting down a
                    |    production line.
                    |         Kelvin Throop - The Management Dictionary
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: north@hstorm.hacktic.nl (Ad Timmering)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting
Subject: Re: wanna be a pilot with eye-glasses???
Date: 4 Oct 92 15:27:44 GMT
Organization: Hstorm BBS, Den Helder - The Netherlands

Hi Miika,

asunta@convex.csc.FI (Miika Asunta) writes:
> I have about -6 in both eyes.
> Have I any chance to become a private pilot?
As far as I know, YES. My father has -5.25 in both eyes (+/- 0.25) and he
definitely passed his medical check, they made no problem of it. He can NOT
become a commercial pilot, but that wasn't really his intention anyway. :-)

Regards,
        Ad

--
Ad Timmering, SP-ASEL
north@hstorm.hacktic.nl
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting,rec.aviation.ifr
From: patter@dasher.uucp (24224-guthrie)
Subject: Re: Stay off the rudder!
Organization: Bellcore, Livingston, NJ
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 92 16:12:18 GMT

In article <1992Oct4.044538.155@ucsu.Colorado.EDU> glenn@rintintin.Colorado.EDU (GLENN ROBERT ALAN) writes:
>In article <1992Oct1.201111.22634@ee.rochester.edu> dela@ee.rochester.edu (Del Armstrong) writes:
>>In article <1992Sep30.162333.23749@umbc3.umbc.edu>, robie@umbc4.umbc.edu (Mr. William Robie; POSI (GRAD)) writes:
>>|>Some even suggested that the safest way to descend through clouds was to
>>|>induce a spin, then recover as you broke out. 
>>
>>I've seen articles in Soaring which advocate spinning through a cloud
>>deck if you get stuck on top. I have to admit, it seems like a
>>reasonable procedure to me ...
>
>I've never heard of this method, it seems that in theory, it would work if
>your plane has VERY good spin characteristics, and you don't have a world-
>class case of vertigo when you break out. 

Yeah, I've never heard of it either. In addition to the quite valid
objections that Glenn mentions, I believe there's a FAR that forbids
entering an intentional spin at less than 5,000 feet AGL? I think that
if I find myself in this position I will do what Flying magazine, Private
Pilot magazine, and various instructors have recommended. That is, get
on the horn, declare an emergency, and descend on basic instruments. I
will have already broken one FAR by getting into this mess, I'm not about
to break another playing test pilot (my 150 is only certified for spins
of 5 complete turns - more than that, God knows what will happen).

patter@dasher.cc.bellcore.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
                    |        Murphy's Laws of Combat
                    | . Professional soldiers are predictable, but the
George Patterson -  |    world is full of amateurs.
                    | . The easy way is always mined.
                    |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting
From: bohn@ptolemy2.rdrc.rpi.edu (Jan Bohn)
Subject: Medical waivers
Organization: Rensselaer Design Research Center, RPI, Troy, NY
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 22:06:36 GMT


My vision on one eye is not correctable to 20/40 so I was required to
obtain a waiver.  This was not too complicated:

(1) FAA required an initial statement from an eye specialist ($50).
(2) FAA then required that I'd have a medical flight check (1 hour rental).

They then mailed me a life-time waiver...

Throughout this process, the FAA acted promptly, the whole process
taking less than two months (consider US mail and scheduling of exams),
and they did not charge me for their services (issuing the waiver and
providing a medical flight examiner---giving me a dual instruction for the
price of a solo flight!).
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting
From: lairdb@crash.cts.com (Laird P. Broadfield)
Subject: Re: wanna be a pilot with eye-glasses???
Date: 5 Oct 92 23:33:22 GMT
Followup-to: rec.aviation.student

In <1992Oct3.232600.5132@nic.funet.fi> asunta@convex.csc.FI (Miika Asunta) writes:

>I have about -6 in both eyes.

>Have I any chance to become a private pilot?

[As Geoff pointed out, this really belongs in r.a.student, and followups
are directed there.]

I have -3.75OD and -7.50OS corrected with contacts, and had no trouble
passing the vision portion.  I don't know how this might differ there,
but we have a couple of regular .fi posters who might be able to help.
(Note, this was for a class 3 (private, non commercial) medical, I assume
the tests are more stringent as you go up.)

The doctor was more concerned about what he thought was a heart murmur,
and then decided wasn't, which meant we had to wait a few minutes for
my blood pressure and pulse rate to come back down....


-- 
Laird P. Broadfield     lairdb@crash.cts.com    ...{ucsd, nosc}!crash!lairdb
Hi!  I'm a shareware signature!  Send $5 if you use me, send $10 for manual!
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting,rec.aviation.ifr