HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: dpfabie@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (David Paul Fabie)
Subject: Re: [UPI] "Queer Nation Milwaukee to boycott United Way"
Organization: Computing Services Division, University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 01:11:06 GMT

Here we go again. . . .

From the "Gee, since they can't win against ROTC, why not go for the next
best thing" department, Queer Nation here in Milwaukee has declared that
the BSA ban on Homosexuals is "child abuse".    The target is the United
Way for funding Milwaukee County Council.  The issue here is not one of
discrimination.  Gay activists have no desire to "open Scouting for all
youth and adults"  This is a politically and publicity -motivated attack
that if successfull will only server to hurt the youth of Milwaukee.  I
would direct your attention to the case in San Fransisco.  Who were the
biggest losers??  Inner-city kids in the Bay Area and Oakland who no longer
have a Scouting program.  

Unlike its Bay Area counterpart the United Way here in Milwaukee broke off
relations with the National Organization in response to the scandals galore
that were plaguing it.  So there is hope that the UW here will not fall
prey to the same opportunistic poltical pressure that has so hurt Scouting
in San Fransisco.  The issue here is not are gays suited to be role models
for youth.  The issue is the right of a private organization to set
standards for its membership.  I don't agree with the Catholic Church's
stance on Women being unfit to be clergy.  But I respect and accept their
right as a private organization to set such standards.  The ramifications
for all private groups should the BSA lose are staggering.

Destroying the BSA will not win Gays acceptance or civil rights.  It will
however, make you a great many more enemies than you have now.

-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
David Paul Fabie                   * "Remember! Editors never reject.  We
University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee  *  merely select." - David Kirby
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.scouting,alt.discrimination,chi.general,alt.atheism,alt.politics.homosexuality
From: awerling@nmsu.edu (WERLING)
Subject: Re: BofA and UW can now support discrimination against blacks and Jews
Organization: NMSU Computer Science
	<1992Aug29.145536.3961@cbnewsl.cb.att.com> <+vhntkg@lynx.unm.edu>
	<hill.715369256@galena12> <1992Sep1.221719.9867@rtsg.mot.com>
	<hill.715462676@galena12>
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 22:15:59 GMT

In article <hill.715462676@galena12> hill@rtsg.mot.com (Karen Hill) writes:

>So the scout leader's rights are more important than the scouts rights because
>he is a leader or because he is an adult or because he is gay and supposedly a
>minority now?

Guess what, Karen.  Kick out a gay scoutmaster, what are you teaching
your children?  That it's okay to bash people for NO reason!

> Does being homosexual exclude one from obeying the rules and adhering to
> the standards of the organization to which they have chosen to belong?

The BSA policy is not a rule, it is an abomination.  To enforce that
abomination is discrimination, it is hateful, it is a crime against the
rights of individuals universally.

>If it's nobody's business, then why is there such a huge gay/lesbian movement
>and why is there a gay rights agenda and why are their "rights" to behave as
>they please being forced on society. If it's nobody's business, then 
>it should not even be an issue. 

NO, dear, "forced on society" is not even an issue.  Poor, poor,
widdle society!  

And WHAT do you think has been forced on gays and lesbians in this
country? 

>Certainly true. Any behavior can be learned or unlearned. Homosexuality is
>a behavior and can be unlearned as well as learned. 

Heh.  If you succeed at curing your heterosexuality, let me know. 

>  Let us not forget that what the gay/lesbian movement is asking is for
>  rights based on their behavior and not their humanity.

Explain this.

As a homosexual, I'm demanding the same rights bigots like you already
have.  If getting married, NOT being bashed, having the same financial
benefits as you constitute "behavior," then so be it.  

--
Andrew Werling    awerling@nmsu.edu    yip@acca.nmsu.edu
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: philipla@microsoft.com (Phil Lafornara)
Subject: Re: Okay, rec.scouting take two...
Date: 01 Sep 92 18:37:32 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corporation

In article <1992Sep1.071516.12618@alf.uib.no> buboo@alf.uib.no (Ove Ruben R Olsen) writes:
>[stuff that I felt like commenting on deleted for the sake of brevity]
>
>Good idea, but I would rather prefer:
>    rec.scouting.policy.bsa	- BSA, and BSA only.
>    rec.scouting.policy.misc	- Others. Minimal BSA stuff.
>    rec.scouting.wisdom		- Non political.

      When we really get down to it, there isn't enough traffic
on this group to warrant even a single new newsgroup, much less
three.
     I still think 'wisdom' is a poor choice of name, as well.

					-Phil


-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Phil Lafornara         				1 Microsoft Way         
philipla@microsoft.com				Redmond, WA 98052-6399 
Note:  Microsoft doesn't even _know_ that these are my opinions. So there.
Xref: sparky rec.scouting:2684 alt.discrimination:4045 chi.general:900 alt.atheism:16191 alt.politics.homosexuality:5595
From: jkusters@zeus.calpoly.edu (Chrome Jester)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting,alt.discrimination,chi.general,alt.atheism,alt.politics.homosexuality
Subject: Re: BofA and UW can now support discrimination against blacks and Jews
Date: 30 Aug 92 00:32:12 GMT
Article-I.D.: zeus.1992Aug30.003212.191549
Organization: California Polytechnic State University, San Luis Obispo

stank@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (Stan Krieger) divulges:
->
->This equating of homosexuality with legitimate minority groups is by
->no means a "fact", but rather is simply part of the gay rights agenda
->(and like everything else about this discussion, this has also been
->said already).  Unlike legitimate minorities, a person's sexual
->behavior, as well as such other anti-societal behavior such as
->commune living, drug usage, or religious cult membership, is a
->person's choice.  A person whose ancestors are from Japan or
->Africa didn't have a choice.

Once again, Stan(k), you bring up your BELIEF that sexual orientation is a
chosen attribute rather than an innate one.  Once again, I disagree with
you, and challenge you AGAIN to prove that it is chosen.  If it is chosen,
then I challenge you to spend ONE WEEK choosing to be gay.  Can you do it?
I would guess not.  I don't mean go out and practice same-gender sex.  I
mean, to be GAY.  There is a difference, you know.

JOhn.

-- 
/-John A Kusters, jr.--------------------------------------------------- ______
| jkusters@ares.calpoly.edu   b0- f- w g- s-- r p++                      \    /
Silence keeps us all in darkness, We can't change things overnight;       \  /
But we can shed a little light, Be Political not Polite! -Romanovsky & Phillips
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: wlieftin@cs.vu.nl (Liefting W)
Subject: Where is that RFD?
Summary: When does someone send out an official RFD?
Organization: Fac. Wiskunde & Informatica, VU, Amsterdam
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 10:20:33 GMT

In official network posts it is said that the discussion about
a new newsgroup should take place in 

                      news.groups

after a proper
  
                      request for discussion (RFD)

if i'm not mistaken.

So PLEASE, can ANYONE who is interested in this discussion send out
such a RFD, and thus move this discussion from rec.scouting and a
dozen other newsgroups to NEWS.GROUPS.

Don't bother about the charter, just think of something. The discussion
will come by itself.

Greetings from a tired discussion reader,
                             W. Liefting


p.s. Do not reply to this article here. It will lead to nowhere.


-----------
wlieftin@cs.vu.nl
From: kati@glnserv.UUCP (Lady Dragon)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Girl Scout story
Date: Tue, 01 Sep 92 07:43:41 CDT
Organization: Vermi-net, Houston, Tx. 77098

I just got a call last night from the leader of our troop, saying that
they won't be needing me anymore since half the girls that flew up from
Brownies to Juniors won't be coming back. I had spent the summer getting
most of the training I needed to be a good co-leader. But I kinda knew in
the back of my head that she might not need me, as we had 4 co/leaders and
18 girls, and we assume that some would not be joining again. I thought
that I would simply join a new troop and work with them. My daughter is
thinking that if her friends don't join, that she might quit the first
troop too. Since the friends quit two years ago because the leader has an
abrasive personality, it is unlikely that they will join again. So now I
am off looking for a new troop where I and my daughter can join, and
possibly the friends too. They joined up for the camping, (according to my
daughter) but they left because of the leader.
Mostly she is very controlling (I don't know how she will ever let the
girls learn to "govern" themselves) and she sometimes belittles girls in
the troop. To make matters worse, she has two daughters in the troop and
they behave poorly as well. I would have left before, but my daughter just
went through her first year of Scouting with 3rd year Brownies and she
flew up with them. Basically, she didn't want to be the "new kid" in the
troop again. Now that seems to be changing.

Any comments? Has anyone else gone through this?


* * email address: nuchat!xcluud!glnserv!kati * Houston, Texas, USA, Earth * *




Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: yorton@turtle11.rtsg.mot.com (James J. Yorton)
Subject: Re: BofA and UW can now support discrimination against blacks and Jews
Reply-To: yorton@rtsg.mot.com
Organization: Motorola Inc., Cellular Infrastructure Group
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 22:17:19 GMT

In article <hill.715369256@galena12>, hill@rtsg.mot.com (Karen Hill) writes:
|> anthropo@carina.unm.edu (Dominick V. Zurlo) writes:
|> 
|> > 4).So, you're fairly rigid in your beliefs.  Then if you don't like the 
|> >scoutmaster/other leaders in a troop, find another one.  Troops split 
|> >over smaller issues than this continually.  if a troop has a gay leader, 
|> >and you don't like that, find a troop that doesn't have one.  There are
|> >definately enough troops to do that.  Just as you;d attend another 
|> >synagogue.    >-- 
|> 
|> Ok...say you have a scout troop where X (where X is a significant portion of
|> the troop) number of scouts and their parents do not prescribe to 
|> homosexual behavior. Say also that the scout leader is gay. Who should
|> leave...all those "homophobe" scouts and their families or the
|> gay scout leader? Who chooses who's rights are more important here? If
|> either side leaves, discrimination can be claimed.
|> 
|> -Karen Hill
|> 


Not really.  If the scout leader is *forced out* because of, say his
minority status, that's a form of discrimination.  Parents have every
right to have their child associate with whom (or without whom) they wish.
If they don't like their child to have a gay scout leader and they
decide to pull that child out of that troop, how is that discimination?
They're pulling the child out *voluntarily*.  I'll use an example I used
before: Thirty some years ago, some parents wouldn't have wanted their
child to be near a scout leader who was African American.  Who should leave?

C'mon, it's the same as the military ban.  It is said that some people
would have trouble working/living in close quarters with gay soldiers.
(Years ago the same argument was used with blacks too.)
Should we boot out that soldier, despite their outstanding service
record and contribution to this country, or should the person who
is homophobic or racist leave or be reassigned?

This whole thing could be solved if the individual who is prejudiced
would find out why they harbor those feelings with regards to
something that is really nobody's business.  Then nobody would have
to leave.

Whether it's racism, sexism, anti-Semitism, or homophobia,
bigotry is bigotry no matter how you slice it.  It is a
learned behavior and it can be unlearned.

---
Jim Yorton
Motorola Inc., General Systems Sector
Cellular Infrastructure Group
Arlington Heights, IL
yorton@rtsg.mot.com
Newsgroups: rec.scouting,alt.discrimination,chi.general,alt.atheism,alt.politics.homosexuality
From: orange@uumeme.chi.il.us (Karl Meiser)
Subject: Re: BofA and UW can now support discrimination against blacks and Jews
Organization: UUMEME Public Access UNIX
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 92 07:14:04 GMT
Keywords: BSA, KKK

In article <1992Aug21.110428.10268@m.cs.uiuc.edu> kadie@herodotus.cs.uiuc.edu (Carl M. Kadie) writes:
>
>[Here is my letter to the Chicago Tribune. Anyone know the address
>of the suburban UW? - Carl]
>						August 21, 1992
>  [...]
>
>Voice of the People
>Chicago Tribune
>435 N. Michigan Ave.
>Chicago, IL 60611
>
>Dear Editor:
>The column says this change was made to allow funding of the Boy
>Scouts (who exclude gay and atheist boys). But thanks to the new
>policy, a KKK youth program designed to serve only white Christians is
>now eligible for United Way funding.
>
>Is it possible to create a policy that supports discrimination of
>atheists and gays but excludes discrimination of Jews and
>African-Americans? If not, should the BSA be excluded or should the
>KKK be included?
>

As far as I'm concerned, I don't think BSA should receive funding EITHER.
I had originally thought that one of United Way's main gains was against
that of "discrimination".  Whereas I am religious in a way, I strongly
disagree with programs that force belief in God;  Whats the point?  The
funny part is it that whereas BSA rejects gay boys, they tend to be one
of the largest organization that pedophilliacs tend to join (ie: scout-
masters) to be able to "satisfy" their urge, either through sight or
mollestation.

Personally, whereas I dont think BSA is as bad as the KKK, I believe they
both (obviously) support a form of supremacy;  "I was a boy scout when I
was younger, and I got ALL the medals."  In some ways, I see the merits
of the Boy Scout "merits", but personally, I feel its become rather corrupt
over the years.

-- 
Karl Meiser						orange@uumeme.chi.il.us

I said it, but I might not have meant it.

Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: aap@wam.umd.edu (Alberto Adolfo Pinkas)
Subject: Re: BofA and UW can now support discrimination against blacks and Jews
Organization: Workstations at Maryland, University of Maryland, College Park
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 16:06:50 GMT

In article <5110@news.duke.edu>, infante@acpub.duke.edu (Andrew  Infante) writes:
> 
> Individuals who do _anything_ in the privacy of their own home, short of
> murder, rape, and other _hurtful_ crimes (and no, _homesexuality and 
> drug use is not hurtful_) is their _own_ business.
> 
> 
> andy.

However, the big fight seems to be the recognition that homosexuality is not
a private matter. We are talking here about the right of homosexuals to "come
out" without loosing any other rights.
So, so far homosexuality has been a private matter, and the fight is to make it
a public matter: like being able to hold hands, kiss, or any other form of
affection in public, as well as marriage and other public contracts.
Saying: what two people do in private is not your bussiness, and homosexulity
fits in that category is keeping homosexuality "into the closet".
The point here is: what two homosexuals DO IN PUBLIC, when does not affect
you is not your bussiness.

AAp
Newsgroups: rec.scouting,alt.discrimination,chi.general,alt.atheism,alt.politics.homosexuality
From: pmoloney@maths.tcd.ie (Paul Moloney)
Subject: Re: BofA and UW can now support discrimination against blacks and Jews
Organization: Somewhere in the Twentieth Century
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 16:02:14 GMT

achenbac@epcot.spdc.ti.com (Jeff Achenbach) writes:

>No argument there. Let's drop this thread. Seems inappropriate for this 
>newsgroup. I would be glad to reply by e-mail if desired.

S'funny that. You are after all posting to _5_ newsgroups (plural), all
of which seem to be _entirely_ appropriate to the discussion.

Or is it just you can't stand the heat? Nahhh....

P.
-- 
moorcockheathersiainbankshamandcornpizzapjorourkebluesbrothersspikeleepratchett
clive P a u l  M o l o n e y "Lines of light ranged in the nonspace of the  rem
james Trinity College,Dublin PMOLONEY%MATHS.TCD.IE@PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU mind." vr
brownbladerunnerorsonscottcardprincewatchmenkatebushbatmanthekillingjoketolkien
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Wasted Bandwidth
From: jkusters@zeus.calpoly.edu (Chrome Jester)
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 01:08:54 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: California Polytechnic State University, San Luis Obispo

I know that I am probably in everybody's kill file by now, so I don't really
know why I bother to try and say this, BUT if Scouting taught me one thing
(and it didn't, it taught me a life-time of things), it is that you speak up
for what you feel is right.

With that in mind, I would like to point out how hypocritical it is to me
for everyone to be saying how much of a waste of bandwidth it is for people
to be discussing BSA policies wrt atheists and homosexuals.  They complain
that we're "flooding" the newsgroup, and hope that we leave soon so that the
"normal" discussion of Scouting activities and policies can continue.

Hey, folx, there is no limit of how much traffic a newsgroup can handle.  If
people really wanted to be discussing campouts, leadership, advancement,
merit badges, international events, and so forth, THERE IS NOTHING STOPPING
THEM FROM DOING SO.  You are not prevented from discussion just because
someone else is posting about something other than what you want to talk
about.

Most newsreaders these days are capable of killfiles.  If you see a thread
that you don't want to see anymore, use your killfile.  In 'rn' or any of
it's derivatives, hitting "K" will put a thread in your killfile.

But don't just sit there and complaing about wasted bandwidth.  The only
thing that's wasted when you do so is your breath (or your typing, as the
case may be...)

My two sense's worth,

JOhn.
-- 
/-John A Kusters, jr.--------------------------------------------------- ______
| jkusters@ares.calpoly.edu   b0- f- w g- s-- r p++                      \    /
Silence keeps us all in darkness, We can't change things overnight;       \  /
But we can shed a little light, Be Political not Polite! -Romanovsky & Phillips
From: kati@glnserv.UUCP (Lady Dragon)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Scouting
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 92 06:53:46 CDT
Organization: Vermi-net, Houston, Tx. 77098

I have noticed that people have talked about skipping or killing the
messages found here, because they are not exchanging information. I agree
that it's terrible to do nothing but harp on whether or not the BSA should
allow gays. But it is even worse to let these people run us off of our own
board. If every person who complained, posted some of the information that
s/he wanted to see here, we would have something worth reading.
Don't just complain -- Write something!


Hello
-----
I love to hear the word Hello,
Wherever I may go.
It's full of friendship
And good cheer
And warms the heart up so.

Hello, Hello, Hello, Hello,
Hello, Hello, Hello...

When e'er we meet
Like friends let's greet
Each other with Hello.

Hello, Hello, Hello, Hello,
Hello, Hello, Hello...

(sung to the tunes of: Auld Lang Syne -or-
Coca Cola's I'd Like to Teach the World to Sing)

* * email address: nuchat!xcluud!glnserv!kati * Houston, Texas, USA, Earth * *




Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: aap@wam.umd.edu (Alberto Adolfo Pinkas)
Subject: Re: BofA and UW can now support discrimination against blacks and Jews
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 15:59:42 GMT

In article <5108@news.duke.edu> infante@acpub.duke.edu (Andrew  Infante) writes:
>
>Anyone whois is _human_ should be allowed the same _rights_ as all humans, 
>up until the point where what the person does _adversely_ affects others,
>i.e. hurts them (and no, hets are not being _hurt_ by homosexuals' 
>activities, if a het _thinks_ that the sight of homosexuals is indeed
>hurting them, turn you fucking head, het, it's not your concern anyway!)
>

If all humans, just for being humans, would have the same rights as all 
other humans, there would not be any sense in talking about rights,
Rights are based on the fact that not all humans have rights just because they
are humans, but based on the fact that humans are different from each other.

So, because we are not equal, some people have to be protected from other peopleand then, we have rights. So, not all humans have the same rights as other
humans.,
Whatever is applicable to all humans, is something assume per se and does not
require a legal right. Like your right to breath.

So, erasing the distinction between human beings does not help the cause 
for equality, but actually, hurts it a lot. Because we need to understand 
where are we different in order to act on that.
Men are no women, and women are not men, that is why we have to have 
rights that concern women and not men, like the right to choose about their
bodies. An so on.

AAP





>And yes, I'm het.
>
>later.
>
>andy.


Newsgroups: rec.scouting,alt.discrimination,chi.general,alt.atheism,alt.politics.homosexuality
From: palane@iastate.edu (Paul A. Lane)
Subject: Re: BofA and UW can now support discrimination against blacks and Jews
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames IA
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1992 03:16:12 GMT

In <1992Aug23.210258.12959@amhux2.amherst.edu> twpierce@amhux1.amherst.edu (Tim Pierce) writes:

>BSA gets my tax dollars through the United Way.

Huh? I was not aware that the United Way is a public charity. If we're talking
nonprofit exemptions, you might as well come out against any tax relief for
churches.

>>  Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. There are too few good
>>influences on young people today.

>Unfortunately, that's exactly what BSA is doing; in an attempt to
>throw out the bathwater by excluding queer scouts *and leaders*, they
>are eliminating some damn fine scout leaders out there.

An interesting point. I would be interested in learning the reactions of
parents if they knew that an adult scout leader was gay.

I don't support this requirement of the scouts. However, morally straight
should also disclude sexually active heterosexual boy scouts. Thus, in
some sense, it is nondiscriminatory. However, I don't know if any scout
has been tossed out for fooling around.

Paul Lane

Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: jpa@holmes.acc.Virginia.EDU (Jayne Ashworth)
Subject: Words for last verse of _Puff the Magic Dragon_
Originator: jpa@holmes.acc.Virginia.EDU
Organization: Academic Computing, U. Va.
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 18:47:15 GMT


The words I have are the familiar Peter, Paul and Mary words and
end with the verse where the boy grows up and the dragon goes
into his cave.  I have heard, at a Girl Scout camp many years
ago, an additional verse where the boy grows up, has a son
and the son returns to frolic with Puff.  Does anyone have
the words to this verse?  If you do, please e-mail them to
me at jpa@virginia.edu - Thanks!  Jayne Ashworth