From: khushro@amazon.eecs.umich.edu (Khushro Shahookar)
Subject: FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS (Periodic Post)
Organization: University of Michigan EECS Dept., Ann Arbor, MI
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1992 07:14:38 GMT


Archive-name: misc-forsale-computers-faq

********* Changes since June 1, 1992 ************

FAQ 7b and 7c were rewritten, to include important info from 
last month's flamefest.

***************************************************

As always, please email your suggestions and corrections to
khushro@eecs.umich.edu. However, read faq 8 before emailing me.  Entire
sections rewritten are most welcome, if you think you can do a better job.

QUESTIONS:

1. How do I make a safe deal on the net?
2. What should I do if I am the victim of net fraud?
3. Should I post followups to articles on this news group?
4. What is a good subject line that attracts attention?
5. What are the best places to find current prices of new/used stuff?
6. Can I make commercial postings of products for sale through my store?
7. Which shipping companies should I use?
8. What should I know before making suggestions about this faq?

_____________________________________
1. How do I make a safe deal on the net?

There is NO perfectly safe way to deal on the net. The reason for so much
activity in this group is that most of the people are honest. If people start
scamming each other, I am sure most of us will stop selling/buying here. 

There are a few ways to improve safety.

a. Use COD, and don't forget to specify that you want payment by cash or
cashier's check. Buyers should pay by cashier's check, not
cash, unless it is a very small amount. The extra money you spend for COD
and for getting the cashier's check is really worth it.
Personal check is not recommended, but if you use it, then you should check
with your bank about rules for collection of bounced checks. It is a crime to
issue a bad check, and the seller can go to the police, and deposit the check
in the bank for collection whenever the money is available. Unless the buyer
goes through bankruptcy proceedings, the seller usually ends up getting his
money.
Surprisingly, US mail does not give you the option of demanding payment by
cashier's check. The buyer is encouraged to pay by personal check. So, to be
safe, use UPS instead.

b. The seller should attach a packing list on the outside of the box,
describing the equipment. Both the buyer and the seller should have some
witnesses - friends, neutral office people, etc. during the entire process
of testing, packing/unpacking and mailing/receiving the package. This will
help in case someone sends you a box of toilet paper, or a dead computer,
and you need to go to court to settle the dispute. In this case, the buyer
can SOMETIMES stop payment on his cashier's check. You must check with your
bank first. Some banks DO NOT allow you to stop payment on a check in cases
like this; they allow stop payment only if the check is lost or stolen.
However, some other banks do not even care to ask. Note that it is illegal
to stop payment on a check unless there is a good reason for it. If the
seller has witnesses to prove that the stuff was OK, he can also go to the
police.

c. Unfortunately, there is no official way to delay the payment in order to
give the buyer time to check out the equipment. Banks do not issue post-dated 
cashier's checks, and do not take the responsibility for delaying payment
on post-dated personal checks. If you write a post-dated check, you trust
the seller to wait until the due date, which is not a very good idea.
Therefore, it is recommended that you pick up the package
from the post office on a Friday, and spend the weekend checking it out, so
that if necessary, you can stop payment on the cashier's check on Monday.
(see exceptions in b. above)
Some people erase the magnetic ink numbers at the bottom of the check
to delay its processing, which is also NOT recommended.

d.  Before any deal on the net, the buyer and the seller can sign a written
agreement that contains a description of the stuff, addresses and phone
numbers, any conditions, such as "the equipment must be in working
condition" or "If dissatisfied, the buyer will return the equipment and pay
2-way shipping". Such an agreement has to have two copies with the dated
signatures of both parties on both copies, and it has to specify that each
party gets something of value in exchange for what is given to the other
party.  It should specify when things are supposed to happen.  Beyond that,
it should cover whatever each party wants covered.

In order to be legally acceptable, such an agreement should be notarized.
This is quite easy to do, and it would be useful if you ever need to go to
the police. The following is a brief sample agreement provided by Martin B.
Brilliant. Add your own conditions to it.

                        CONTRACT OF SALE
_______________________, seller, and ______________________, buyer,
agree as follows.  Seller will ship _________________________ by
(UPS, Parcel Post, etc.) (insured for ________) on or before ______
to (name, address), guaranteed to be received in good working
condition (details if desired).  Buyer will send a good (personal,
cashier's, certified) (check) (money order) for $________ by U.S.Mail
to (name, address) on or before ______.

   (signed and dated:)
                                Seller________________/__/__
                                Buyer_________________/__/__



e. Take each other's phone no. and call each other. Many problems and
misunderstandings can be fixed by communication. Also, if you have any
trouble getting the equipment to work, you can take the seller's advice
and help before you decide to stop payment.

f. Use a third party. There are a couple of people who will keep a cashier's
check made out to the seller until the buyer is satisfied with the stuff. 
I do not know them personally and am not in a position to recommend them yet,
but you can get more details by emailing them:
tony@pegasus.com, chuck@teal.csn.org

g. Never agree to pay half the money first, and the other half after
receiving the stuff. That way, either the seller will take half the money and
never ship, or the buyer will get the stuff, and never pay the rest of the
money. The seller can't go to court, since he has no proof of fraud. The
buyer can show his check for half the amount as proof of payment. 

h. Double check your address that you email to the other party, double check
the address on the package, or cut and paste it out of the printout, and 
always include your return address, so that the package or check is returned
to you if it cannot be delivered.

i. Never use an expensive shipping service unless you have an advance check
to cover the shipping expenses + return charges, or you are sure that the
buyer will accept the package. Packages can be returned, whether COD or not,
and this is a risk all sellers take. If the buyer does not agree to pay the
shipping in advance, it is advisable to stick to the cheapest shipping
service (with COD and insurance ofcourse).

j. Always keep a record of the following until after the sale is completed 
and both parties are satisfied:
Buyer: check number or cashier's check receipts, date of mailing. 
Otherwise, you will not be able to stop payment if necessary.
Seller: COD receipts or other proof of mailing. It is NOT advisable
to send off a package by 4th class mail without any proof of mailing 
even after you have received an advance check, because the buyer can 
always claim he did not receive it, and you might need to have the 
post office track it down.
Both parties: all email, summaries of phone conversations, the agreement
mentioned in (d) above.

k. Do not think that if you use COD and cashier's check, you are perfectly
safe. There are a million ways for the buyer and the seller to commit fraud.
If the police catches up with them, then they go to jail.
Despite the safety precautions mentioned above, you basically trust that the
other party is honest. This is a risk you always take while dealing with
individuals by mail order. If you cannot afford this risk, then this
newsgroup is not for you (For example, someone trying to buy/sell expensive
equipment for his company may be held personally responsible for the losses
if he gets ripped off.)
___________________________________________________
2. What should I do if I am the victim of net fraud?

a. Try not to get into the following situation:
I spoke to SG over the last few days--after the recent post slandering him..
I was assured a check was in the mail far before I posted the notice
 about him..   The problem was apparently one of bad timing.. Not honesty..
By me posting a note about the individual, I have tarnished his reputation in
front of thousand of net subscribers..  And since it appears to be in error, I
formally retract the statement and make an apology for such action.
I would like to thank those who rushed to my assistance, and especially SG, 
a regular seller upon this network, for the patience.
I continue to endorse caution when selling on the Network although I feel that
SG is not a threat to anyone as a buyer, a seller or otherwise.
On my own behalf, I will say that neither of us were at fault--it was simply 
bad circumstance..

b. Send mail to the other party several times. If there is no reply, then
assume the mail is not getting through, and call and talk to him. If you do
not have his phone number, post a message to him on the newsgroup, with his
name/email address on the subject line. This is not recommended however, and
there is no guarantee that the guy will see your message, or will ever read
the newsgroup again.

c. If he refuses to cooperate, then post his name and your story to the net
to warn others.

d. Send mail to the postmaster and system administrator at the fraudulent
party's computer site, informing them that their site is being used for
fraudulent deals, and explaining the situation in detail. Often, for
university sites, the system administrator is kind enough to pass the case on
to the campus police.
On Unix systems, the addresses are root@machine-name, and
postmaster@machine-name, where machine name is from the buyer's /seller's
email address. For some one getting on to the net from his PC, the person
himself (the fraudulent party) may be the sys admin of his own machine, so
this system does not always work. Then ask your own sys admin how to reach
the sys admin of another organization, or ask on comp.unix.admin, and
someone familiar with that site will reply.


e. Contact your local post office and the police to see if any thing can be
done about mail fraud. Remember, email is not evidence. You can easily forge
email. For going to the police, you should have some written evidence of the 
fraud, such as a COD receipt, bounced check etc. 
____________________________________________________
3. Should I post followups to articles on this news group?

Please, please don't post followups to this group. The volume of messages is
already too high. 

a. It is very tempting for some folks to reply that the price asked for an
item is too high.  This has, as often as not, led to a flame war and although
some potential buyers appreciate this sort of warning, these same people
would be well advised to do some of their own investigating instead of
depending on others.  Remember, 'caveat emptor'!  Please treat this group as
you would a classified ad in a newspaper.  If you see a price that you don't
think is ridiculous, ignore it.  It's not your problem.  No one is asking you
to buy the item.  Have a good laugh; If you feel you MUST do something, send
E-Mail to the poster telling him about it, but PLEASE don't post it here!

b. You should definitely refrain from getting into flame wars on this group. 
Reply by private email instead of posting your wisdom to the entire group. 

c. Funny remarks and wiseguy cracks should be directed to rec.humor.funny, they
don't belong here.

d. Questions pertaining to the items offered forsale must be asked by email to
the poster. Everyone is not interested in reading your questions.

e. The following line will eliminate most followups if used in a killfile:
/: Re: /=:j 
(the = sign simply prints out the topic and can be omitted; this is for rn,
but I suspect most other newsreaders will use something similar). Another
version is /Re:/h:j As more people realize that their followups are not
being read, they will be discouraged from posting them.
_______________________________________ 
4. What is a good subject line that
attracts attention?

Remember that many people just scroll through a list of subject lines, and
read only the interesting items - takes 10 min. a day for about 50 items.
So if your subject line is not interesting, your post will just not get read.
All of the following should be in your subject line:
a. WANTED or FORSALE
b. System name eg MAC, IBM, 386SX, SUN/SS1 etc.
c. Product description eg. CPU, modem, printer, software, etc
d. Preferably, the price
e. Complete message summary if it fits on 1 line.
The following are examples of great subject lines:
SALE:$999 = 386SX, 33MHz, 1Mb, 3.5, 5.25" FD, 100Mb HD, 19" VGA, printer.
Available separately: 386SX-loaded + 2400modem + laser printer + SW.
Books for sale-Cheap: C, Unix, PC troubleshooting, data processing.

Examples of uninteresting subject headings are: 
Stuff for sale, 
Software Cheap, 
Lots of Computer stuff, etc.
______________________________________
5. What are the best places to find current prices of new/used stuff?

Please, please check the current prices of your equipment before you
advertize on this news group. Many many sellers use the price they paid a
couple of years ago as a guide line. That is the main reason why they do not
receive any responses. Prices are falling every day. It is unfair to charge
a price based on what you paid several years ago, when buyers can get new
and better equipment cheaper.

PRICES FOR USED EQUIPMENT:
a. Check the yellow pages of your phone book under "computer equipment - used"
or "resellers". Call a couple of them to find out what price they would buy
for, and a couple to find what price they are selling similar equipment for. 
The middle value is the right price for the net.

b. Another source is to look in magazines or catalogs for used computer
sellers For Macintosh equipment Sun Remarketing and Maya are two of the 
largest and best.   

c. A rule of thumb is: Start with the lowest current price you can find 
for similar NEW equipment.  Take 50% of it for the base used asking
price, and then adjust this upwards or downwards depending on things
such as condition of the item, age, whether it includes original
documentation and/or packaging, whether it is still under warranty
(and how much time is left on the warranty), whether the manufacturer
is still around, and whether or not you can still get support for the
product.  For discontinued or one-of-a-kind items, you might want to
suggest a price range and then open it for bidding.


PRICES FOR NEW EQUIPMENT:
d. ClariNet Street Price Reports.  For subscription info, write to 
info@clarinet.com or phone 1-800-USE-NETS.

e. Computer Shopper 

f. Advertisements in Byte and other computer magazines.

g. Call the manufacturer, and ask about the price, or ask about a store that
sells the equipment, and get the price from them. 
_________________________________________
6. Can I make commercial postings of products for sale through my store?

No. Use the newsgroups biz.comp.hardware, biz.comp.software etc.
_________________________________________
7. Which shipping companies should I use?

a. US MAIL: They have mail fraud inspectors, and I have heard conflicting
stories about whether they can or cannot help in case of bad checks, or
parcels containing toilet paper instead of a computer. They do not force
people to pay by cashier's check, so that is a minus.

b. UPS: The most frequent complaints against shipping companies such as
UPS are that they either leave the package outside your door when you don't
want them to, or they don't leave the package when you want them to, and you
have to go and pick it up. 
UPS has a policy of leaving packages in some low crime areas, but not in
others. Sometimes, this can be changed by leaving a prominent note on your
door for the driver, or by calling the UPS office. The best thing you can do
is to call UPS and find out what their delivery policies are in the BUYER'S
area, and whether they will do one of the following:
i) Hold the package at their office, (and what their office hours are),
ii) Leave it outside your door, if you leave a signed note,
iii) Leave it with a neighbor, if you leave a signed note,
iv) Deliver it during a certain number of hours on a particular day.
If it is their policy to leave the package outside your door, and you don't
want them to, you can ask the seller to pay an extra buck and put a
signature required sticker on the box. If they still leave it without your
signature, you have a right to call the Better Business Bureau. All of the
above applies to the other shipping companies also. 

There have been some complaints about people receiving their COD
money, sometimes 3-4 months after shipping the package, and getting them to
trace what happened to your money is also not very easy. The most delay
occurs when payment is made in cash. Cashier's checks come back a little
faster.

c. Federal Express: I have heard that in some cases, it is NOT much more
expensive than UPS Air, and they return the money quickly. besides, they
have much better customer service compared to US Mail or UPS. They rarely
leave a package without a signature unless you ask them to, and if you are
not home, they call and ask where and when to deliver it. Besides, if they
screw up in any way, they refund the shipping charges. For some people, this
is worth the extra money.

d. Shipping to Canada: Do NOT use UPS.  Use the US-Mail.  The US-Mail may
incur a slightly higher shipping fee on the US end of things, but the lack of
hassles and brokerage costs from UPS-Canada more than make up for that.

Get a guide from Canada customs on what is duty free etc.  Computer
equipment (manufactured in the US) should be duty free, however you will
have to pay GST (Goods & Services Tax, 7%) on the "declared value" of the
goods.

e. Overseas Shipping:
Evans International Overseas Shipping (602) 340-9161 specializes in moving
stuff from country to country. They give a lot of (free) advice even if you
don't use them. 
_______________________________________
8. What should I know before making suggestions about this faq?

a. It was suggested that instead of making the subject lines descriptive, we
should split the group into many different groups. The following groups were
suggested:
Mac, IBM, Amiga, Unix/workstations, misc      or
Computers, peripherals, software, books, parts, misc       or
forsale   and   wanted.
This was discussed in detail on the newsgroup, and no decision was reached.
The main problem is that people will post copies of their articles to many
groups instead of just one. For example, if someone has a printer or disk
drive he will post to mac, IBM and all others, and if someone has a computer
with printer, software and manuals, he will post to CPUs, peripherals,
software, books, etc. So the regular readers of this group, who are
interested in more than one thing will have to read multiple copies of the
same articles. 

b. This newsgroup is not moderated, and I am not responsible for it in any
way. So don't ask me to flame those who participate in flame wars, or post 
"dying child" articles. This FAQ is just a summary of things already
discussed on this newsgroup in excruciating detail. Most of the views
presented here are not my own or of my employer's. They are acquired from
the net.

______________________________________

KHUSHRO SHAHOOKAR,  khushro@eecs.umich.edu