HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jkirk@acpub.duke.edu (Daniel Brownstone)
Newsgroups: alt.hypnosis
Subject: Getting Hypnotized
Date: 13 Dec 92 03:30:26 GMT
Organization: Duke University; Durham, N.C.


I have been "hypnotised" a few times, always by the same person.  I
would like to discuss this very basic experiment with someone who is
interested in helping me experiment further.  If you are, please reply
in email.

Thanks,

Jkirk@acpub.duke.edu
From: farris@ruhets.rutgers.edu (Lorenzo Farris)
Newsgroups: alt.hypnosis
Subject: Re: George Clark Proposes Silencing Friday re NLP
Date: 16 Dec 92 08:36:32 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.



I this what we have to descend to? Vote on silencing a poster? Maybe
NLP is useful and maybe it isn't. But you sure aren't going to settle
that with flame wars. Remember the adage - "Never argue with a fool,
people might not be able to tell the difference."

Perhaps, instead of trying to silence each other, you may want to come
up with appropriate rules of debate. For example, 

	1) No personal attacks.
	2) All claims, for or against, based on documented evidence.
	3) Maybe each can choose an 'unbiased' referee (ha, that'll be
		the day) to police these posts.

Or come up with your own. At least act like adults and professionals,
people are more likely to respond positively.

This is not to necessarily imply any one in particular is being
childish. But a word to the wise should be sufficient.

				-Lorenzo
-- 
                                        ******************************
Comedy = Tragedy + Distance             *  Lorenzo Farris            *
                 -Lenny Bruce           *  farris@ruhets.rutgers.edu *
                                        ******************************
From: 5546yuj@vms.csd.mu.edu
Newsgroups: alt.hypnosis
Subject: hypnosis
Date: 15 Dec 1992 16:42:22 GMT
Organization: Marquette University - Computer Services
Reply-To: 5546yuj@vms.csd.mu.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: vmsf.csd.mu.edu

In article <1992Dec15.044424.10026@dxcern.cern.ch>, ferguson@uxuw03.cern.ch 
(Douglas Ferguson) writes:
>hello,
>
>	i just discovered your group and would like to make a few quiet 
>observations. 

>
>fergie.                                 or email ferguson@vxaluw.cern.ch
>

Very good!  
I am interested in  self-hypnosis as well. I have tried two years with no
success. 
Here in this net I have been educated with a good deal of NLP.
Now I am thinking about trying it and am wondering if I can find such a 
NLP program here at Milwaukee.
Thank you in advance for any response.

JY MU
From: steve.crabtree@synapse.org (Steve Crabtree) 
Newsgroups: alt.hypnosis
Subject: Re: Hypnosis and the Soul
Date: 15 Dec 92 13:58:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: SYNAPSE BBS - GATINEAU, QUEBEC - 819-561-4321
Reply-To: steve.crabtree@synapse.org (Steve Crabtree) 

To: alt.hypnosis
From: steve.crabtree

In article <DLB.92Dec14103144@fanny.wash.inmet.com>
dlb@fanny.wash.inmet.com (David Barton) writes

DB> In article <231.3473.uupcb@synapse.org> steve.crabtree@synapse.org
DB> (Steve Crabtree) writes:

DB>    The same thought has occurred to me. If there is no unique brain
DB>    state which underlies what appears to be a unique set of
DB>    behavioural phenomena, you're left with the options of denying the
DB>    existence of hypnosis and accusing people of acting, assuming that
DB>    the states of the brain can change without affecting EEG, or with
DB>    the tantalizing possibility that hypnosis may act not on brain
DB>    but on mind (soul etc.)

DB> This may simply reflect the narrowness of your definition of what
DB> "hypnosis" is.  If trance behavior is seen as a natural phenomena,
DB> part of everyday life and occuring to everyone several times a day,
DB> and that a formal induction is simply a mechanism for gaining access
DB> to this natural skill, then some of this dilemma goes away.

I accept your broadening of the definition, but I'm not sure how it
helps unless you're suggesting that (for these informally induced
trances) there are detectable EEG changes accompanied by the same
suggestibility characteristic of a more formally induced trance.

If so, why does a formally induced trance not show these EEG changes? Is
it possible that they sometimes accompany a hypnotic trance but are not
part of whatever fundamentally constitutes a hypnotic trance?

I'd agree that it's more parsimonious to argue that changes in the
brain do take place which are not observed; is it possible to falsify
this hypothesis?

                << Experimental details omitted >>

DB> I would GREATLY appreciate more infomation about this procedure.
DB> Time, place, participants, and any sponsoring organization would be a
DB> good start.

The presentation was an informal (i.e. not sponsored) presentation at
the annual conference for the Society for Psychical Research in
September 1991. I will have to dig out the other details for you.

DB> Explicitly stating hypotheses
DB> and the expected results of the experiment, and what it means (in the
DB> example above) for a sketch to be a "remarkable match" is difficult in
DB> any rigorous way.

I think these problems have been successfully addressed in the blind
judging procedures used for Ganzfeld experiments etc. Tends to
understate the closeness of good matches, but is still sufficient to
show effects.
            
Newsgroups: alt.hypnosis
From: slf@netcom.com (Sharon Fisher)
Subject: Re: George Clark Proposes Silencing Friday re NLP
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 02:34:46 GMT

georgec@eng.umd.edu (George B. Clark) writes:

>If you want to create an alt.nlp group, you begin by making a
>proposal at alt.config, where the newsgroup administrators hang out.
>However, I doubt there is sufficient interest to justify two groups
>because alt.hypnosis has too few participants, as is.

Well, unless you're a newsgroup administrator, we should probably ask
them rather than just taking your word on it.

>alt.hypnosis is an acceptable place for NLP, but people who like
>NLP should leave room for people who don't. Someone who has been
>disappointed with NLP should be able to say so without being pecked to
>death by someone else who preaches NLP for a living, even if their
>biased opinions are wrong.

It should be pointed out that, to the best of my knowledge, neither
Carol nor I make our living through NLP.

Be that as it may, it is fine to say that you were disappointed with
NLP.  However, you did not say that.  You said things like it was a
crock and that people supporting it were only interested in money and
that it had no value.

>Also, the hostility perceived by people who read but don't post is
>superficial. They see flames, when in reality the people arguing are
>actually enjoying each other's company. For example, I'd feel badly if
>my calling Friday a hen actually hurt her feelings.

What was your goal in calling her a name if not hurting her feelings
and thereby shutting her up?
From: radinsky@spot.Colorado.EDU (Wayne Radinsky)
Newsgroups: alt.hypnosis
Subject: Re: Hypnosis and the Soul
Date: 19 Dec 92 19:51:39 GMT
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder

steve.crabtree@synapse.org (Steve Crabtree)  writes:
> radinsky@spot.Colorado.EDU (Wayne Radinsky)  writes:
>WR> steve.crabtree@synapse.org (Steve Crabtree)  writes:
>WR>> What puzzles me is that so little work seems to be done these days
>WR>> exploring the possible links between hypnosis and parapsychology
>WR>> with a view to exploring the nature of humankind.
> 
>WR> You might be interested in "Venture Inward" by Hugh Lynn Cayce (our
>WR> library has it).  It's about the work of Edgar Cayce, who I would
>WR> say does link hypnosis and parapsychology (as well as explore the
>WR> "nature of humankind").
> 
> This raises the point another poster made about the equivalence of
> different forms of trance. From the little I've read about Cayce, his
> trances seemed more like those of the spiritualist mediums of the time,
> spontaneous events rather than specifically induced ones? 

They were deliberately induced twice a day for something like 20
years.  There were about 14,000 such "readings" (as they were called)
when he died in 1945.

> Does anyone have any experience with apparent psi phenomena cropping up
> spontaneously with hetero or self hypnosis?

I'd also like to hear some experiences.

Wayne.
Newsgroups: alt.hypnosis
From: rxv9839@ritvax.isc.rit.edu (Bob Vogel)
Subject: Re: George Clark Proposes Silencing Friday re NLP
Reply-To: rxv9839@ritvax.isc.rit.edu
Organization: Rochester Institute of Technology
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 00:46:46 GMT

more from Friday
Newsgroups: alt.hypnosis
From: alexand@lt7.cs.rhbnc.ac.uk (Alexander Forth)
Subject: Info on self-hypnosis
Organization: Royal Holloway, University of London
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 23:59:21 GMT
Reply-To: alexand@cs.rhbnc.ac.uk (Alexander Forth)
X-Posted-From: lt7.cs.rhbnc.ac.uk
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu


There have been a lot of calls from people interested in different methods of 
self-hypnosis.  I think that the demand is sufficient to justify the posting
of any relevant information on self-hypnosis to the group instead of by Email, 
whether it be good book titles or an in-depth article.
COULD SOMEONE PLEASE POST THIS INFO TO THE GROUP!!!

Yours quietly,

Alex.
From: steve.crabtree@synapse.org (Steve Crabtree) 
Newsgroups: alt.hypnosis
Subject: Hypnosis and the Soul
Date: 13 Dec 92 15:52:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: SYNAPSE BBS - GATINEAU, QUEBEC - 819-561-4321
Reply-To: steve.crabtree@synapse.org (Steve Crabtree) 

To: alt.hypnosis
From: steve.crabtree

In article <1992Dec13.004405.12206@ultb.isc.rit.edu>,
rxv9839@ritvax.isc.rit.edu (Bob Vogel) writes,

  << Hypnosis levels description etc. deleted >>

BV> Don't you all think (with due respect for the menatl anguish that may
BV> cause some of the "flame" experts reading) that the lack of
BV> correlation between trance phenomena and EEG's and any number of
BV> the other comments that have been posted here {when we weren't
BV> talking about NLP} point strongly in the direction that there is
BV> a part of our psyche (soul, most basic uniquness, & 50 other
BV> terms for that same essential "us-ness") that is both seperable from
BV> the body and not observable, at least with our current crude
BV> instruments? Many people's out of body experiences would seem to
BV> point in this direction.  Such a separate self would possibly
BV> account also for some of the anamolies discussed herein. Comments??
BV> observations that tend to support or detract?? Anybody in hypnosis
BV> had anything to say about this?

The same thought has occurred to me. If there is no unique brain
state which underlies what appears to be a unique set of behavioural
phenomena, you're left with the options of denying the existence of
hypnosis and accusing people of acting, assuming that the states of the
brain can change without affecting EEG, or with the tantalizing
possibility that hypnosis may act not on brain but on mind (soul etc.)

Most of my information about hypnosis comes from reading about 19th.
century experiments wherein phenomena such as travelling clairvoyance
and community of sensation appeared frequently in deep trance. Since I'm
fairly firmly convinced that psychical phenomena exist and also fairly
firmly convinced that they cannot be explained on the basis of a
material brain/body, it appears natural to assume that hypnosis affects
a non-material part of us, revealed in psychic experiences.

One recent example; last year, I attended a presentation in which the
presenter claimed that he could consistently demonstrate precognition
with an excellent trance subject. The procedure is to suggest that the
time is 10 minutes later than now and to show the subject a blank piece
of paper on which a drawing will later be made and to request them to
copy it. The subject, of course, is told that the drawing already has
been made.

According to this source, this results in a remarkable match with what
is later (randomly) drawn. (This work is not intended as a formal
experiment but as exploratory work).

What puzzles me is that so little work seems to be done these days
exploring the possible links between hypnosis and parapsychology with a
view to exploring the nature of humankind.
                                                  
Newsgroups: alt.hypnosis
From: dlb@fanny.wash.inmet.com (David Barton)
Subject: Re: George Clark Proposes Silencing Friday re NLP
Organization: Intermetrics Inc., Washington Division, USA
	<1992Dec11.213516.15746@netcom.com> <1992Dec12.130518.5339@eng.umd.edu>
	<1992Dec12.172505.18131@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 15:21:17 GMT

In article <1992Dec12.172505.18131@netcom.com> friday@netcom.com
(Carol Anne Ogdin) writes:

   C.  To the readers of alt.hypnosis: This is your opportunity to
       decide the future direction of your newsgroup.  Please post a
       "more Friday" or "more George" response to this item, and we
       can all tally the votes on Sunday, December 20th.

With greatest respect to all sides, I refuse to participate in this
vote.  First of all, it will be ineffective; the long history of
Usenet indicates that a) flame wars will erupt, and b) inappropriate
postings will occur.

My personal practice is to attempt to scotch flame wars by simply not
responding.  Anyone who believes that they have thus "won" is welcome
to do so.  I usually dive in to the extent that some useful exchange
is taking place, then simply stop; thus, my lack of response to this
exchange.  This is by no means a put-down of the participants.  This
is a personal decision only (which I have been known to violate when
one of my buttons gets effectively pushed).  For some, the flame wars
of Usenet are its most enjoyable aspect.  Buzzing by them does not
take that long for me, and a newsgroup where the signal to noise ratio
gets too low it is simple to abandon the newsgroup for awhile, until
things settle down.  Hell, sci.skeptic is perpetual flame; in spite of
this, an occasional post is extremely interesting.

I try to pay attention to the title of the newsgroup, but as a guide
and not a straightjacket.  I will post about NLP to the extent that it
is connected with hypnosis and similar topics.  Questions off the
topic of hypnosis will receive an (I hope) courteous response.  If
they continue too long, I will suggest a change of venue or Email.

Friday, I hope you will continue to respond, as I find your thoughts
lucid and useful.  George will, no doubt, respond as he sees fit (for
example, his recent experience with group hypnosis and smoking was
extremely interesting).  I recommend to all that, if the flame wars
get unpleasant, we simply stop having them.

Any field that includes people of such diverse ethics and approaches
as Anthony Robbins, king of the infomercial, and Steve and Connirae
Andreas will excite a lot of opinions and controversy on both sides.
Inevitable.  I hope all sides will forgive me if I refuse to get
excited, or give up my own opinions and experience, because of this.

					Dave Barton
					dlb@hudson.wash.inmet.com
Newsgroups: alt.hypnosis
From: ferguson@uxuw03.cern.ch (Douglas Ferguson)
Subject: Re: vote &  more
Reply-To: ferguson@uxuw03.cern.ch (Douglas Ferguson)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 00:34:00 GMT


Hello again!

	I just wanted to apologise to everyone who (apparently fruitlessly)
tried to decipher my previous post. The interesting thing is that my editor
was inserting many artificial line breaks into the post, so it looked perfectly
normal to me. Sorry 'bout that.

Wayne, thank you for reposting the article, and fixing it up. I'm afraid as far
as capitalisations and such are concerned, I had gotten a bit lax lately (the
left hand shifting key on the keyboard that I just swapped out was difficult
to operate.)

Again, thanks for the patience,

Fergie

BTW the uxuw03.cern.ch email address is a bit clumsy for me to reply to--
technical computer system matters force me to post through a unix system that 
is separate from my normal account. ferguson@vxaluw.cern.ch is much easier.
From: friday@netcom.com (Carol Anne Ogdin)
Subject: Self-Hypnosis Book Recommendation
Summary: A book worth recommending on self-hypnosis
Keywords: hypnosis self-hypnosis book
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 05:37:59 GMT

Brian M. Alman, Ph.D. & Peter T. Lambrou, Ph.D.:
   SELF-HYPNOSIS:  The Complete Manual for Health and
       Self-Change  Second Edition; Brunner/Mazel, 1992, $22.95

From the publisher's description:

Guidebook and reference manual in one, *Self-Hypnosis* encompasses more
self-hypnosis techniques for mental and physical well-being than any
other single available source:  pain control, weight loss, smoking
cessation, allergy relief, a more satisfying sex life, better decision-
making ability, the elimination of phobias, improved parenting skills,
and many, many more.  Exceptionally lucid, practical and *motivating*,
the authors have managed to integrate essential professional information
together with common sense do's and donts.  The many case examples,
actual scripts, and sample procedures--all nondirective in nature--can
be effectively used verbatim or suitably adapter to the subject's ex-
perience and needs.

Publisher's blurbs:
   "Valuable...accurate...comprehensive...useful...understandable...
    mesmerizing.  One of the best books on the market on self-hypnosis."
        --Jeffrey K. Zeig, Ph.D., Director, Milton M. Erickson Foundation

   "The most thorough, comprehensive, and practical book for the gen-
    eral public on self-hypnosis.  It is one therapists will prescribe
    for their patients."
        --D. Corydon Hammond, Ph.D., ABPH, President-Elect, American
               Society of Clinical Hypnosis

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
I asked people I respect, and this is what they recommended.  I have
confidence in Jeff Zeig...if he recommends it, I'd buy it if it suited
my needs.
-- 
--Friday                                    "Knowledge is guesswork
   Carol Anne Ogdin, Principal Designer         disciplined by 
   Deep Woods Technology                        rational criticism." 
     friday@netcom.com                                 --Karl Popper
From: farris@ruhets.rutgers.edu (Lorenzo Farris)
Newsgroups: alt.hypnosis
Subject: Re: Self-hypnosis vs meditation
Date: 16 Dec 92 08:49:27 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

In article <Mf=SCse00VQk81FElO@andrew.cmu.edu>, tg0r+@andrew.cmu.edu (Terilyn Gillespie) writes:
:Hello,
:
:I have done what we called trance work with a therapist (and actually,
:for a time, with two therapists) and am now working on my meditation
:skills.  My question is this:  what is the difference (or perhaps, is
:there a difference) between hypnosis/self-hypnosis and meditation?  From
:my experience, both entail the same techniques, i.e., total relaxation
:of the body, often done through breath work, after which time the mind
:"follows".   While often hypnosis (self induced or not) entails hypnotic
:suggestions, it seems to me that the same can and does occur with
:meditation as well.  So, again, is there more than just a semantic
:difference between the two?
:
:Terilyn Gillespie

Please be more specific what you mean by meditation, as the name is
applied to many different practices. 

From the way you have described them, however, there is really no
difference.  States of awareness do not occur on discrete levels,
like, now I am in hypnosis, now I am awake, now I am meditating. It is
a continuous spectrum, as far as I can tell.

Since most people don't have much experience with having awareness and
will in altered states, most altered states seem about the same, that
is, different from being awake.

			cheers,
				Lorenzo
-- 
                                        ******************************
Comedy = Tragedy + Distance             *  Lorenzo Farris            *
                 -Lenny Bruce           *  farris@ruhets.rutgers.edu *
                                        ******************************
Organization: Editing, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: alt.hypnosis
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 08:55:04 -0500 
From: Terilyn Gillespie <tg0r+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Self-hypnosis vs meditation
	<1992Dec14.180307.13321@leland.Stanford.EDU>

Hello,

I have done what we called trance work with a therapist (and actually,
for a time, with two therapists) and am now working on my meditation
skills.  My question is this:  what is the difference (or perhaps, is
there a difference) between hypnosis/self-hypnosis and meditation?  From
my experience, both entail the same techniques, i.e., total relaxation
of the body, often done through breath work, after which time the mind
"follows".   While often hypnosis (self induced or not) entails hypnotic
suggestions, it seems to me that the same can and does occur with
meditation as well.  So, again, is there more than just a semantic
difference between the two?

Terilyn Gillespie
Newsgroups: alt.hypnosis
From: georgec@eng.umd.edu (George B. Clark)
Subject: Re: George Clark Proposes Silencing Friday re NLP
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 92 21:47:36 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland

In article <1992Dec12.183935.23742@netcom.com> slf@netcom.com (Sharon Fisher) writes:
>friday@netcom.com (Carol Anne Ogdin) writes:
>
>
>You know, my understanding is that it's not that difficult to create
>an alt. newsgroup; perhaps the solution is to create an alt.nlp, and
>then the people interested in NLP can discuss it there, and the people
>interested in hypnosis-without-NLP (since hypnosis is a fundamental
>part of NLP, as far as I know) can discuss it here.

If you want to create an alt.nlp group, you begin by making a
proposal at alt.config, where the newsgroup administrators hang out.
However, I doubt there is sufficient interest to justify two groups
because alt.hypnosis has too few participants, as is.

alt.hypnosis is an acceptable place for NLP, but people who like
NLP should leave room for people who don't. Someone who has been
disappointed with NLP should be able to say so without being pecked to
death by someone else who preaches NLP for a living, even if their
biased opinions are wrong.

For example, though I dislike NLP, I enjoy reading Dave Barton's and
Ruth's NLP discussions because they discuss NLP without sounding like 
preachers. Neither of them argue with me when I express my own
biased opinions, and I return the respect by not arguing with them,
when they express theirs.

Also, the hostility perceived by people who read but don't post is
superficial. They see flames, when in reality the people arguing are
actually enjoying each other's company. For example, I'd feel badly if
my calling Friday a hen actually hurt her feelings.
Newsgroups: alt.hypnosis
From: friday@netcom.com (Carol Anne Ogdin)
Subject: Re: George Clark Proposes Silencing Friday re NLP
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 15:30:24 GMT

In <Dec.16.03.36.32.1992.28195@ruhets.rutgers.edu> farris@ruhets.rutgers.edu (Lorenzo Farris) writes:

>Perhaps, instead of trying to silence each other, you may want to come
>up with appropriate rules of debate. For example, 

>	1) No personal attacks.

A principle worth following at all events.

>	2) All claims, for or against, based on documented evidence.

Lorenzo, I'm afraid that if you really enforce #2, alt.hypnosis will
cease to exist.  I don't know of any replicable experiments or falsi-
fiable theories which completely explain the phenomenon ('tho those of
you with a more academic inclination might be able to offer us some
from the literature; I, for one, would be interested in seeing them).

>	3) Maybe each can choose an 'unbiased' referee (ha, that'll be
>		the day) to police these posts.

In those newsgroups where a referee is used, orthodoxy prevails, IME.
-- 
--Friday                                    "Knowledge is guesswork
   Carol Anne Ogdin, Principal Designer         disciplined by 
   Deep Woods Technology                        rational criticism." 
     friday@netcom.com                                 --Karl Popper