From: SCOTH@WMVM1.CC.WM.EDU (Scott Hammer)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.allmusic
Subject: Saffire Redux
Date: 7 Jan 93 16:09:10 GMT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU

First, I said:
>>As for what song of Saffire's degrades men,I'm not familiar enough with their
>>repetoire to know song titles, but, taking the stuff they've played the two
>>times I've seen them live as representative, just about anything from their
>>entire oeuvre will do.  For example, take their number about why younger men
>>should prefer older women.
>
Then MHB queried:
>Would you clue me in here? How is Saffire's schtick different from Bessie Smit
>singing "I need a little sugar in my bowl" or Janis Joplin's "Move Over?"
>
Two ways in which Saffire differs from Bessie Smith or Janis Joplin spring
immediately to mind:

    1)   Saffire's self-conscious identification with the whole politically-
         correct-Sociology-Department-Marxist-radical-feminist crowd.
                                 and
    2)   The obvious inauthenticity of Saffire's music (cf. Sonia's post on
         this subject.)

I said further:
>>As far as their record sales go, they are representative of popularity and of
>>the effectiveness of marketing campaigns.  To assert that sales means anythin
>> else is dangerously naive.
>

To which Bloomdido responed:
>Not to be a nag, but this approaches tautology. Of course the popular artists
>are the ones that sell records! The question that one should ask oneself as a
>good ALLMUSICer is, is the artist popular for real musical achievement, or for
>playing the celebrity game and/or simulating masturbation on video?
>
Of course this approaches tautology.  I said this in response to L.W.'s
statement that (I'm paraphrasing) Saffire sold lots of records and was pretty
popular where he's from so they must be ok.  My response was meant to make
this point exactly: Popularity means that a group is popular, nothing more or
less.

Me:
>>It is a given that women have been degraded by music, as well as by just abou
>>everything else in society, but I don't see how that fact applies here.  I
>>always thought the goal of the so-called women's movement (it is actually a
>>movement for everyone -- not just women) was to treat *everyone* with respect
>>in  thought, word, and deed.  I don't think that Saffire does that, and I fai
>>to see any other redeeming value in their sexist attitude towards men.
>
Bloom:
>Again, I wanna say "Yeah, but..." And here I wanna get into some stuff about
>why we have rock'n'roll, what good it does us. There's certainly a component
>of it that you're supposed to respond to bodily-- makes ya dance, makes ya
>sweat, makes ya think about attaching yourself to the bodice of the goddess
>across the dance floor, etc. A popular music that ignores sex is only going
>to appeal to nerds like Olivia Newton-John and Tipper Gore. (Unfortunately,
>a popular music that ignores brains has a regrettably wide appeal. I'd like
>happy medium, please.)
>
I agree thoroughly.  I guess my complaint is partially with Saffire:  they
claim to be feminists, and yet most of their music is reverse sexist, and
partially with Saffire's audience: they eat Saffire's raunchiest stuff right
up, and yet shout down poor old male folk singers such as myself for stuff
that's real mild by comparison: the objectionable lyric in _Cold Rain and
Snow is apparently "I had me a wife; she's been trouble all my life."  Singing
this really did get me booed offstage here in Richmond last year, and among
the hecklers were many of Saffire's biggest local fans.

Now you'll probably tell me to grow up and stop expecting people not to be
hypocritical -- you're probably right.

I have nothing against music that makes people want to "shake that thang",
actually I quite enjoy it.  Wasn't it Bill Graham who described the Dead
as playing "pelvic music?"

>So is Andrea Dworkinism the politically correct response? God, I hope not!
>I agree with Emma Goldman: "If I can't dance, I don't want to be part of
>your revolution!" Or in other words, kiss that frog :-)
>
Amen!

"But if you go carrying pictures of Chairman Mao
 You ain't gonna make it with anyone anyhow."

-Scott "Politically Incorrect" Hammer
 College of William and Mary
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU