From: mistik@mistik.anatolia.mn.org (Mustafa Soysal)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: Spiros Triantafyllopoulos seems to begin realizing yet.
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 92 21:10:48 EDT
Organization: N.A.

> From: by403@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Spiros Triantafyllopoulos)
> Newsgroups: soc.culture.turkish
> Subject: continued discussions with Mustafa Soysal
> Date: 11 Sep 1992 03:31:26 GMT
> Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
> Lines: 267
> Message-ID: <18p3ueINNs4q@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>
> Reply-To: by403@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Spiros Triantafyllopoulos)
> NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu
> 
> 
> mistik@mistik.anatolia.mn.org (Mustafa Soysal) writes from his brand new 
> net home (thru UUNet, the Mother of All Feeds :-):

You are still fishing for info.

> 
> > And with that CLAPping business, you watch too much TV.  Or if you are
> > trying to pull off tricks, they don't work too well with me.
> 
> If you think that by CLAP-CLAP I am trying to pull tricks (read extract 
> subliminal information from you) boy, yer' paranoid. I'm just pulling your leg.

There is a right-on-the-money virus, which fills the screen with the
word 'paranoid' when you find it.  Your system seems to have many of those.

Whenever someone tells me 'paranoia', I always know that I am right on
the money with what I have said.  It is a panic reaction of the other
party trying to lead away from being caught in the act.

> 
> > > CLAP-ON Interesting. all you see is "turks/muslims" and everyone else.
> > > Who's got the binary brain? Have you seen me complain about postings
> > > is other groups (i.e. the Makedonians, Pakistanis, Bosnians, etc). CLAP-OFF
> > 
> > No, you are the one targeting Turks and Muslims.  See the last paragraph.
> 
> Nope. I'm targeting 'Soysal' et. al. in the Mut*u/Cos*r/KEL*Y/Soys*l posthouse.
> Whether they're Turks makes no difference except to the terminally paranoid.

:)  You are targeting yourself so far.

> 
> > Unary brain of Spriros did not produce any information to go anywhere.
> 
> They why are you responding? Line at the unemployment office short today?
> (and notice mispelling of name, whatsamatta, editor can't copy?)

I like exposing you to the other Turks reading, as you have approached
many of them in the past pretending to be friendly.  And interestingly,
so far you have been a great help in this. 

> 
> > > silly.  But I don't flame them. (ESENA THELW RE!) CLAP-OFF
> > 
> > Aha, personal vendetta.
> 
> Sure. I could provide you the names of (Heaven Forbid) Turks with whom I
> have had very warm, useful, down-to-the-point discussions on the net.  I
> could even send you copies of email I have from them, or post their email
> to the net, Soysal style. But I won't sink that low.

You haven't got any level to talk about low or high.  As for posting
harrassing mail, yes I will post it in the future as well.  If someone
wants to be a terrorist in private, they can be it in public as well.  I
always expressed that something being discussed in the public should be
addressed there, and I don't accept any privacy on that. 

> 
> > > behold, i have a reply immediately, Thuesday morning. CLAP-OFF
> > 
> > What did you expect, a week turnaround? What is soo strange about it?
> > Maybe you are underestimating me.  I might give you more turnaround time
> > just for a change though. 
> 
> Instant Gratification. Insert $0.25 and whoever's on duty at the MCKS posthouse
> (Mut*u/Cos*r/KEL*Y/Soys*l) goes for it... Yipeee!! More!

????  You lost it completely.

> 
> > You are the ignorant one, and again, what has that ftp thread to do with
> > posting announcements?
> 
> You said something about associating me with uploading images 'on ftp'
> [sic]. I simply pointed out that I was not the one to have done any of the
> above, and pointed you to someone closer to the (posting) house.

No, you started talking about Mutlu and Cosar totaly out of the context
of the thread, and I asked you what it has to do with the current
thread.  I also said if you are associated with those ftp site people,
since it seemed that you had to mention it as a matter of bashing or
vendetta at a totaly unrelated subject. 

> 
> > There is acceptable use regarding educational matters, and personal use. 
> > Quoting, as long as given the source and in part, is accepted.  If you feel
> > otherwise, feel free to write letters to the publishers.
> 
> You're dead wrong. There's something called fair use. Fair use entitles one
> to use selected material from a book for PERSONAL use. Most books have
> SPECIFIC WARNINGS against reproduction, storage, or distribution in 
> ELECTRONIC FORM. In a couple of books' case, we're talking that Mut*u & Co.
> have posted the entire book. Is that fair use? Haven't D.Morning's

What cases of entire books? One is allowed to quote in a message
passages from a book with giving the source of it.  I actually think,
that the books he was quoting from got much more popularity thru this,
and they sold more copies. 

> arguments been enough to (as Mut*u would say) utterly humiliate you yet?

Humiliate who? You are humiliated as a result of my conversation with
D Morning.  He seems to be reasonable with me so far.  I always thought
that he got caught in something he did not intend to, but kept going for
personal feelings, however, it is up to him, and I don't see any problem
in his style of exchanging views with me so far.

> 
> Why do you spend so much energy defending Mut*u & Co, anyway? 

Ehm, you are spending day and night to attack Mutlu, may I ask why? You
are willing to go as far as taking your laptop to the hospital and bash
on Mutlu while your wife is in labor for your child.  Isn't that a
little bit strange?  You aren't in a position to ask questions.

As for defending Mutlu, you have got the wrong impression.  I like his
postings, and want him to continue, and participate in the discussion
about it.  Besides, it is not up to you or me or any other individual to
decide whether or not he should post. 

> 
> > How about your points regarding announcements?  Have got any?
> 
>   +------------------------------------------------------------------------+
>   | Yes. Postings such as the one that started the thread (IN MY OWN       |
                                                            -----------
>   | HUMBLE OPINION) do not belong there. There's the announce groups,      |
     ----------------

I really don't have a problem with that.  But you are trying to impose
your humble opinion on us.  That I don't accept.

>   | there's the biz hierarchy, and there's the non-commercial stuff. If    |
>   | you want to see the difference, ZEOS International (for example) has   |
>   | people on the net who post VERY BRIEF product announcements on         |
>   | comp.hardware.ibm.pc (say) and the full text in biz.newprods or        |
>   | biz.zeos (whatever). They don't flood the net (and in particular       |

Who flooded where with one article? Remember, the article is transmitted
once, not as many times as newsgroups it is posted in. 

Besides, your only reason for entering this thread was to personally
'hunt' me, that is your own words.

>   | groups that have ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with the subject) and they   |
>   | don't make their announcement so business like. I'd have preferred a   |
>   | brief announcement there telling news readers to look in the           |
>   | newprods/biz hierarchy for an extended version. Simple enough?         |
>   | Everyone else from ALR to Zeos does it. Why couldn't they do it?       |

Because they don't have to do it the way ALR to ZEOS does nor your way. 
You could make a friendly posting if you wanted to make a difference. 
Then again, personal preferences differ I guess.  Your whole purpose was
trying to flame me with some info in objective about anatolia.mn.org

>   +------------------------------------------------------------------------+
> 
> > > > I got my own brains and don't need your nurturing.
> > > 
> > > CLAP-ON You got what? Is that why you found a blatant advertisment
> > > posted in mostly unrelated groups "acceptable"? [...]
> >
> > I have got what you apparently haven't.
> 
> If you 'had' any, you wouldn't be posting 350 (and again 354) line messages
> answering this kind of material. Think of me as GAV*0, only more refined :-)

Refined?

And as for 350 lines, most of it is yours, it doesn't take much to expose you.

> 
> > [...] But a Greek person trying to decide what to
> > be posted at the Turkish group looks a bit off.  Don't get me wrong, I
> > am not implying that you should not.  But if you do the way you do, your
> > motivation is obvious. 
> 
> Entertainment? To pi$$ you off? symptoms of AMWS? (acute mut*u withdrawal)
> This should prove to you beyond any doubt that it has nothing to do with
> race/religion. It's personal. Had, say, Besime or Hakan or any other sct
> netter responded to the above, I would not have blinked at it and dismissed
> it. But, seeing Mustafa Soysal on the dotted line, VOILA! CLAP-ON-CLAP-OFF..

Do you think I am responsible for your misery?

> 
> > > > Ah, what challenges you in my postings? As I said, you aren't getting
> > > > entertained, you are getting exposed.  Have you noticed yet?
> > > 
> > > CLAP-ON If I weren't getting entertained, I would not be posting these.
> > > Simple. But the CLAPPER-FOR-BRAIN can't think otherwise, can it? CLAP-OFF
> > 
> > Your preference for the form of entertainment is a statement about you.
> 
> But then I enjoy cooking, gardening (best *ing lawn in the *ing subdivision),
> woodworking, tinkering with things, etc. Care to share some of your hobbies?
> (notice not-too-subtle information extraction (PSAREMA) method)

I knew you couldn't keep it a secret much longer.  See, you are the
manipulator type person who needs information to work with.  And right
now, you are craving for it.

> 
> > > > > > > > Mustafa Soysal
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > But still no kute .signature
> > > > > 
> > > > > > Sorry, I am not here to please you.  Do you think the world should
> > > > > > revolve around you?
> > > > > 
> > > > > Nah, should the world revolve around me I'd have to buy me a suit and 
> tie
> > > > > to look good on the evening news. (In Greek "Se doulevw reeeee").
> > > > 
> > > > So why are you trying to get entertainment so hard? Can't live without
> > > > hassles?
> > > 
> > > CLAP-ON Because I live in a "culturally challenged" part of the United 
> States.
> > > (Indianapolis, IN), where "every 'mut*u's' cherished, every 'Cos*r's'
> > > appreciated, every 'Soysal's' enjoyed at its best"... CLAP-OFF
> > 
> > Does that read "I am better"?  Are you arian as well?
> 
> Let me get back to you on this. Let me check, bzt turk bzt. YES. Arian [sic].
> 
> (it's Aryan, man, Cos*r took out the speller to save disk space). But the 
> chunky/
> brown eyes/dark hair/mouse moustache/coke glasses/pale-white-geek-skin variety.

It was obvious from day one.

> 
> > > > That is a wreck.  Quick, Mr mut*u, he needs it really bad.
> > > 
> > > CLAP-ON Do you have a fetish for the word 'wreck'? And 'Mr. mut*u?' CLAP-OFF
> > 
> > It is your statement that you had withdrawal symptoms.  And wreck
> > describes you very well.
> 
> Man, not only Cos*r took out the spelling checker, but the thesaurus (another
> Greek word, envy) as well. What's wrong with these folks? buy more disks!

Get treatment.

> 
> > > > > (he actually has a cute .signature, but it's made out of non-printable 
> > > chars, 
> > > > > like \033\011\012\012\012\011\001\001\000\000\000). 
> > > > 
> > > > So, did you decode them yet?  It might be a secret message.
> > > 
> > > CLAP-ON Sure. If you take each character and AND it with mut*u's birthday in
> > > Julian Date, you get the ascii equivalent. In your case it would read: 
> CLAP-OFF
> > 
> > So?
> 
> Can't you do a simple arithmetic AND? Oh, I forgot, It requires a TRUTH TABLE!
> (he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he (c) Hakan Senel 1992)

?????  Lost it again?

> 
> > >         CLAP-ON ".sig still waiting mut*u's approval". CLAP-OFF
> > 
> > Really?
> 
> Your .signature (or lack thereof) speaks for itself. 

I always sign the bottom of the letter or post, but you are the first
one telling me that I have to have a signature file.  Based on what?
Personal preference?


And I am adding back on what you have conveniently deleted.

> > > CLAP-ON Had you been smart enough you'd realize that you should not try
> > > to converse with me, as I'm no amateur in the field of flaming. I was
> > > flaming and being flamed when you were in High School in Turkiye. I
> > > rarely enjoy engaging rational, reasonable people in flamefests, but
> > > there are cases where they are asking for it. CLAP-OFF
> 
> > But see, I was flaming even before elemantary school, and as I mastered the
> > game I no longer need to practice, and concentrate on the issues now.
> 
> Flame (v): the art and science of irritating, insulting, degrading, and
>            aggravating people on international computer networks.
> 
> Your postings are rated L-D so far (Lame Duck). Besides, everyone knows that
> flaming before high school results in permanent damage. See results in mirror.

Wishful thinking on your part.  You actually bore me.  Flaming is not
limited to networks also.

Another conveniently deleted paragraph is added below

> > > 
> > > > I set the followup to alt.flame, as you seem to have nothing to say on
> > > > the subject.  I bet you'll find all the entertainment you want there.
> > > 
> > > CLAP-ON Nope. It will continue to haunt you in soc.culture.turkish and
> > > cross posted to soc.culture.greek. Mutley&Co played the followup to
> > > and crosspost game for years and nobody minded. Do you? CLAP-OFF
> > 
> > Oh, I see, personal vendetta for screwing your plans.
> 
> Of course. Like I said, think of 'Soys*l' as a 'Mut*u' that bites back,
> uses no quotes, and provides entertainment for hours at a time. 

Sorry, I didn't mean to keep you busy for hours.  Is that how long it
takes you to create the nonsense you write?

> 
> > > The real difference between us, Mustafa, is that you (and Cos*r and
> > > Mut*u) don't like me just because of where I come from. No matter if I
> > 
> > You are what you do.  I certainly won't like you for what you are doing,
> > and it will have an effect for the ethnic community you are a member of. 
> > You are a shame for the Greeks.  I didn't think Sandru was Greek.  But
> > you seem to be. 
> 
> What a stereotyping <expletive array[1..N]>. So just because one Greek
> (aspiring Greek-American RE PAIDI MOU, ME OLA TA XAIMALIA KAI SYNERGA)
> is writing various things, all Greeks are bad. (why Sandru anyway?)

Not just one.  But there are other examples too, good ones.  And they
don't happen too often, and not in soc.culture.turkish anyway.

> 
> Mustafa, I have flamed the Greeks (on real issues) when you were still in
> diapers. Back in 1984-85 I was a part of the famous 'what do we need

Taking the parent role?

> computers in Greece with 20% unemployment for' debate and received more
> hate mail than mut*u will in 20 years. I have rejected many parts of what
> you would consider basic staples in "Greek Culture" (such as soccer,
> bouzouki music (another influence of the Ottomans (TM), politics) in favor
> of basketball, Pink Floyd, and meritocracy. And I've been flamed even worse
> for that. I'm an equal opportunity flamer, not a stereotyper ("ALL XXX are
> YYY"). Want to bet that I'll get more flames from Greeks for "bouzouki"??

I don't care.  It is your problem.

> 
> > Sipa is not my words, you tried to impose it on my name by inserting it
> > just before my signature in your text.  You aren't as smart as you
> > think.  Take a test.  (besides, I wrote SIpa, and it does not mean
> > infidel, you must be dreaming, drunk, etc..)
> 
> Pardon me, I don't even know (or care) what Sipa or SIpa (why, wow, 
> they use upper and lower case in the same word :-), actually a friend
> at sct explained how it works real well with a spectacular example) means. 

Does that mean you didn't mean it?  Then I would take it back.

> 
> > I had one good Greek friend at the university (there were others too,
> > but they weren't good friends), but he seemed to be worried by my
> > ethnicity by dictation of his fellows all the time.  He did not have a
> > problem, but his Greek friends did.  The friendship was doomed to fail
> > under those conditions in the long term.
> 
> See. When we put down the flamethrowers we can even be pals. If I were to

Ehm, you are the one bursting in with the flame thrower.  Make a habbit
of not touching it.  The reality is, that no single person would have
super human abilities such as you claim with flaming.  It won't take you
anywhere, and with what I have seen so far in life, it won't have the
effect you are counting on.

> judge you based on the poll I read that Greece is the second most hated

Disliked or not liked is not hated.  I certainly don't like you.  But
that does not mean that I hate you.  Hate is an intense feeling, such as
love, and it will take your brains out.  You have been trying to achive
that thru what you have sent here so far, but someone else tried that
before you as well, and you will have no luck with it.

> country in Turkiye, based on your stereotyping I wouldn't give you the 
> time of day. ("ALL Turks HATE Greeks, I'm Greek, He's Turk, Hate him!").
> Not so. Overdosing on ethnic pride (Parthenons, Sultans, Empires, etc)
> is what has kept our countries behind for years. Does it have to go on?

No, it is not the pride.  But I certainly don't want to get into that. 
I just state that I don't agree. 

> 
> > > college were Moslems (one from Sarajevo, another from Lebanon, one from
> > > Erythria/Ethiopia). I can count among my friends just about every
> > > nationality (except "Macedonians" :-)).  That's because I get to like or
> > > dislike people for what they are, not  where they're from or which
> > > religion they follow. I realize that Greece, by its virtue (?) of being
> > 
> > So how come Turks and Macedonians don't enjoy the privilege? (This
> > relates to the beginning of this article.) 
> 
> Who says they don't? "Macedonians" was just a joke, man. And a very good 

You said it.  And a joke now? No I don't think so.

> friend of mine (with whom we graduated together, partied together, and
> who did some mean Fourier Transforms), was from Turkiye at USL. The name's
> Firat Ertem, I even spent one Christmas drinking Turkish OUZO (yea!) with
> Firat & Co. I think he's back in Turkiye now. Indianapolis is not exactly
> a hotbed of Turk (or Greek or any other nationality) ethnics. At work 
> there are 2.5 Greeks (2 Greeks, one 1/2 Greek), 1 Turkish woman. Out of

How do you calculate if someone is 1/2 Greek? How do you calculate if
they are 1/1 Greek?

> a huge number of engineers. If I didn't like <nationality>, I'd be on
> the net on soc.culture.<nationality> full time flaming them. I'm not.

But see, you are in the other group flaming them.  Individual by
individual of course, and only those who you consider to be usefull for
that group ;)  That actually makes me feel like I was doing something right.

> 
> [Incidentally if anyone knows what happened to Firat Ertem (class of 1984,
> Univ. Southwestern Louisiana, B.Sc. Computer Science) please let me know]
> 
> > You are judged by your actions Spiros Triantafyllopoulos.  And they
> > don't speak highly of you.  You can tell me all you want, but I will
> > look at what you do.
> 
> If you only look at the flames, your eyes will get tired and you'll start
> seeing things. If you look at the overall picture, you will see something

That is your objective all right, but who says I am falling for it? You
are displaying hostility, and it is being judged as such. 

> better. If I were to judge individuals based on SELECTED net behaviour, or
> even (as you did) judge entire nationalities based on net behaviour,  (of

Your projection, and it does not stick, although you are hoping for it.

> an individual or two) things would be a lot different.

It is a little more than that.

> 
> Mustafa, I'm no amateur in this. Try to understand that net behaviour is

You see, I think that you need to assure yourself of such (no amateur), as
you realize that you have been doing wrong all along.  If you say you
are no amateur, someone might ask as well if you are making any money
with it.  Have you taken classes on that? Do you think flaming is a
carreer or a desirable hobby for that matter? Get rid of the myths and
concentrate on realities. 

> not an indicator of real personality, except in rare cases. Can you see

It is very much of an indicator in your case, I think.

> someone driving like a jerk and make conclusions about his/her personality?

Why not? I wouldn't want to do any business with them.  They would be as
reckless if they get a chance. 

> Just like driving personality, Usenet personality is hardly a predictor of
> real personality. 

We disagree.

> 
> Spiros
> 
> -- 
> Spiros Triantafyllopoulos                  by403@cleveland.freenet.edu
> OUZO POWER                                 [Not Really In Cleveland]



Mustafa Soysal

--