HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: simcock@waikato.ac.nz
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Women and Men Witches
Date: 17 Oct 92 14:24:14 +1300
Organization: University of Waikato, Hamilton, New Zealand

 In article <1992Oct14.222403.43855@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu>,
 kumagic@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu (Stephen R. Figgins) says:
>
>
>Then again, I think men are mostly scum.  I think they can recover
>from scumminess, but like alcoholics, I think we need to fess up to
>being scum before we can really start down the road to recovery.

	I believe that it can be fun to be scum. Is it part of the Male
	Mysteries? Do we need to accept the scum in ourselves into our lives?


	For reading on Male and Female pagan interactions I believe that 
	Slaine comics are suprisingly useful reading. Not for FACT, but for
		attitude.



					-Matthew
From: ksm@abb-sc.abb-sc.com (Ashley)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: updates please
Date: 7 Oct 92 22:04:47 GMT
Organization: Kaos Laboratories


In article <PJy0RB2w165w@brewich.hou.tx.us>, morgan@brewich.hou.tx.us (Morgan ap Rhys) writes...
>>          On another net, I discovered a person  --  not a Gardnerian,
>> apparently, but he never specified his tradition  --  who claimed quite
>> emphatically that a person was not Wiccan unless initiated by a legitimate
>> Elder of Wicca.  Furthermore, he believes that these "legitimate Elders"
>> are (of course) themselves initiated by legitimate Elders, and so on back
>> into history in a true apostolic succession.  He specifically rejects the

> 
>Seems to me that the last group I heard of holding such narrow-minded
>"Mine is the ONE TRUE WAY" attitude was fundamentalist Christians.
> 
>Not a very flattering comparison, eh?
> 
>Cunningham wrote in his _Guide for the Solitary Practiti'ner_ "Some say 
>only a Witch can make a Witch.  I say only the Gods can make a Witch."
> 
>I agree with this wholeheartedly.  We can't judge the validity of 
>another's spiritual experience.  We don't know what he or she felt at 
>their initiation, be it self initiation or initiation into a formal 
>coven.  IT IS NOT FOR US TO MAKE THAT JUDGEMENT!
> 


	Bravo to you Morgan! I have been practicing for years and as my 
definiton of witchcraft expands, so does the lenght of years I realize I've 
been proacticing Paganism of one sort or another.

	I do censor myself somewhat though due to the extraordinary number 
of small minded people I am meeting who claim to be Witches. One got 
absolutely livid with me for calling myself a Witch becuase my practice is 
mixed with Native American and other tradinitons too. He put it to me thus: 
"You can't be a Witch unless you are pure European, just like you can't 
worship like an Indian unless you are one and you can't do Voodoo unless 
you're a black!!" I thought this was hillarious until I realized just how 
many people think just like him. He then waved his "OFFICIAL MAIL ORDER 
WITCH" certificate in front of me and started telling me I should just go 
back to being christian because Wicca had no room for religoius orphans like 
me. He was quite angry about the whole thing.

	Since then I usually just say I'm pagan. Unless I feel like causing 
a battle. >; )


			- Ashley
From: wce@hogbbs.scol.pa.us (Bill Eichman)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Back Files of Pagan Publications
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 92 03:02:59 EDT
Organization: The Heart of Gold BBS, Lemont PA

SL500000@brownvm.brown.edu (Robert Mathiesen) writes:

> The fullest back files that I've heard of are Gordon Melton's, at his In-
> stitute for the Study of American Religion (University of California at
> Santa Barbara).  Are you reading this, Gordon?  If so, are you interested
> in such a project?  -- Robert
> 
> Robert Mathiesen, Brown University, SL500000@BROWNVM


I also think that libraries of 'pagan' press materials would be a good 
idea.

Melton would be the ideal choice. There are several dozen smaller 
archives scattered around here and there.

The key would be accessibility, and some sort of library science 
management that pushed the information from the collection outward so 
that people could get a sense of the histories and the development of 
ideas. Lots of folks have boxes and boxes of pagan zines-- but they 
collect dust.

Later, Bill
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: conib@peri.gvg.tek.com (Coni Britten)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: The Serpent
Date: 10 Oct 92 00:46:43 GMT
Organization: Grass Valley Group, Grass Valley, CA


What about the Pendragon dragon?  Isn't that a dragon from Western myth (or
history, depending on your view of Arthurian legend) with a good connotation?

Also, the symbol for Cornwall is the red dragon -- I believe the Badge of
Cornwall is a red dragon on a horizontally-divided green and white field.

Anyone else know of any other instances of dragons associated with the Cymri
tribe (Cornwall, Wales, Brittany)?  Seems to me there *are* others ...


Coni B.
Xref: sparky alt.pagan:11187 alt.sex:33141 alt.sex.bondage:19712
From: arsmith@lamar.ColoState.EDU (Alan Smith)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan,alt.sex,alt.sex.bondage
Subject: Re: Halloween
Date: 15 Oct 92 20:06:58 GMT
Organization: Colorado State University, Fort Collins, CO  80523

In article <Bw60Cw.3Hq@access.digex.com> corun@access.digex.com (Corun MacAnndra) writes:
>In article <9kDNsB2w165w@clubzen.fidonet.org!shakala> clubzen.fidonet.org!shakala!melchar writes:
>>> Is it me, or is everybody cracking the one-liners nowadays?

It's just you.

>>> Big Al.  Who never writes anything funny.
>>
>>    No, it requires an official 'pun license' to crack one-liners here.  
>>After all, you can't joke without a license ('use a pun, go to prison').

Gad.  I'm in trouble, then.  Better get a good lawyer.

>I think that's 'use a pun go to the punitentiary'. I know this is rather
>punctilious of me, but I couldn't resist taking punitive action. Though
>some of my remarks get rather pungent, just think of me as another pundit.
>
*clank*  Stay there for a while.
>
>Corun (who's sorry for inflicting the punishment) <grin>

Big Al.  Is this how bottoms feel?
From: PA142138@utkvm1.utk.edu (Nancy Proctor)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Ritual Help For a Sick Friend
Date: 15 Oct 92 21:29:03 GMT
Organization: The University of Tennessee, Knoxville

In article <1992Oct15.152553.7728@panix.com>
jimoates@panix.com (Jim Oates) writes:

>
>
>
>                                   (deleted)
>Here is my request:  Is there a simple protection or ritual
>anyone can recommend concerning health and relief of pain?
>                                  (deleted)
>I really would like to help him, in a "spiritual" way, which
>is the only way left to help.
>
>Any comments or suggestions or help would be greatly appreciated.
>
>Blessings to all,
>Jim
>
>
>jimoates@panix.com
>
Jim, have you tried anything like "laying on of hands?"  I have had  some
success with placing my right hand over or directly upon the part of the body
that is hurting.  While I hold that hand in place I visualize that roots are
extending from my spine deep into the earth and that branches are are extending
upward into the heavens. (This is just what works for me, you may find any
number of things more effective)  I imagine that vast amounts of power pour
into my body through these extensions and that the power drawn from the earth
and sky combine within me.  Then I "send" that power through my right hand in
to the patients body, imagine it literally enclosing the pain and then
visualize it being sucked back up into my own body. Then I visualize it (the
pain) flowing down my left arm and exiting my body through my left hand.
I further visualize the pain being gradually absorbed by the earth and
harmlessly dissolved.
I have used this technique several times with success.  However, I have not
worked with anyone suffering the intense pain that your friend is enduring.

Blessings and sincere regards to you friend.  My father died last
year of lung cancer and my best friend's father died the year before of liver
cancer.  I have some idea of the strenth that your friend must have to have
fought this long.  Blessings on you both, and may the Mother guide and
soothe your friend as he continues the struggle.
Blessed Be,
Nancy
PA142138.UTKVM1.UTK.EDU
From: cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Ceremony Suggestions?
Date: 12 Oct 92 17:29:12 GMT
Organization: University of California, Irvine

In article <-1367010760snx@Gilsys.DIALix.oz.au> gil@Gilsys.DIALix.oz.au (Gil Hardwick) writes:
>
>The pagan Kikuyu ritual of female circumcision by removing the clitoris
>at puberty with an old razor blade or piece of bottle glass is similarly
>debilitating and life destroying. It is *how* it is done, which is so
>barbaric, not the religion of those practicing it.
>
>Gil

I've never heard of this as pagan, but it's not just in one area,
either.  It's frighteningly widespread in areas around the Middle East
and north Africa.  Women have fled to other countries to avoid it, and
asked for political asylum -- and been denied.  If they had been black
or jewish and asked for asylum to avoid being mutilated, they would have
been accepted, IMNSHO. 

It involves more than just ("just" indeed) removal of the clitoris.
Also, the labia majora are sliced off, and the labia minora are sewn
together with a matchstick stuck between them so the woman can pee and
bleed -- if she's lucky.  Inability to urinate or bleed is common.  She
is sliced open by her hubby on the wedding night, and lays in bed with
her legs open to keep the wound from closing on her, while he has sex
with her for several days straight, and walks around town with the
bloody knife on one shoulder.  Nine months later, again is she's lucky,
she is sliced open for birth, then sewn up and sliced, sewn up and
sliced, over and over and over.  It is quite common for women and babies
to die from prolonged labor and hemorrage; the accumulation of scar
tissue around the vagina makes it almost impossible for the woman to
dilate sufficiently to give birth safely.  Infections are rampant, and
doctors there have routinely had to cut young girls -- as young as
thirteen -- open to release pounds of black and decayed menstruum.

Say what you want, Gil.  In my estimation, this IS barbarism, no two
ways about it.

Blessings,
Janis 

 
Newsgroups: alt.pagan,alt.bacchus
From: st1rk@elroy.uh.edu (Maxwell, Darin)
Subject: Re: Myer-Briggs <was: Re: a nice experience last night>
Summary: Rambles 
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Keywords: Apollo 
Organization: University of Houston
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1992 01:32:00 GMT

In article <Bw4uqu.K5F@inews.Intel.COM>, pharvey@mipos3.intel.com (Paul Harvey)
writes...

>Hmm, Apollo was the god of action, what is sometimes called the warrior, not
>to be confused with war. Apollo is your boss, or Apollo is what drives you
>to accomplish something, to BE something. Apollo is just say no, Apollo is
>[deleted]
>to earn the means for the next big blow-out. We all know Apollo, but few of
>us really know Bacchus, we outgrow that phase. Too bad really. The modern

Not all of us know Apollo. Some of us merely glimpse him in others and can
never discover him in ourselves. I'm afraid I am in sore need of a god of
action. I do things, but I have trouble doing the things which are 
required. I miss classes because I am in the middle of epiphany over some
idea or play or book or song or even feeling. I am the type who can w/o
trouble convince myself not to go to class or not to do that paper. It's
not that I have no actions, they are just not oriented to other people.
I guess that makes me more in love with Bacchus than Apollo (though I 
always thought Apollo statues cuter). I need to discover Apollo because
I want to live in the world.

                   ^^
Whatever all that (||)means,
Darin
--
Darin Maxwell             I'm sure you know all about the hedgehog
st1rk@jetson.uh.edu       and his sexual problems.
From: bwhite@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu (William E. White )
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: drugs
Date: 11 Oct 92 05:06:35 GMT
Organization: O.U., Harvard on the Hocking, Berkeley in the Boondocks!

In article <1992Oct9.204429.1149@news.cs.brandeis.edu> st923058@pip.cc.brandeis.edu writes:
>Right now my
>ex-boyfriend, who was still one of my closest friends before he started
>playing with XTC, spends about 17 hours a day locked in his room, sleeping
>or spacing out, and will not talk to anyone, hasn't gone to work in
>months, dropped out of school, etc. Asked him why, he sez "'Cause of XTC".

There is evidently some evidence that MDMA ("X" or "ecstasy") lowers
serotonin levels.  Whether this is permanent or not is still under
debate (there is some evidence it may be).  In any case, I imagine that
if your ex-boyfriend already had serotonin problems (due to depression
or whatever else) the effect of the MDMA might be enough to make a
noticeable change in his behavior.  Of course, I could also be completely
wrong, since this is way out of my field and I'm just going on my (very)
limited knowledge of psychopharmacology.  Ask in sci.med and/or alt.drugs
for pointers to appropriate research papers, or look on the CD-ROM
medical databases if you have them in your local library.

In any case, I'd suggest getting him to see a psychiatrist.

>		Feeling very very powerless and just a tad guilty,
>					Rosaleen Dhu


-- 
|  Bill White   +1-614-594-3434     |  bwhite@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu (normal)   |
|  `finger bwhite@view..' for more  |  bwhite@view.cs.ohiou.edu (alternate)   |
|  --> I'm a replicating .signature virus!  Copy me and join in the fun! <--  |
From: pharvey@mipos3.intel.com (Paul Harvey)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Dance of the Dance
Keywords: dance
Date: 13 Oct 92 18:36:18 GMT
Organization: how did you dance, how do you dance, how will you dance

In article <12OCT199218520438@jane.uh.edu> 
st1rk@jane.uh.edu (Maxwell, Darin) writes:
>Paul Harvey used a phrase that sent tingles up my spine and an image to
>my head.
>The dance of the dance is the dance of miniscule squirrels doing a dance
>of joy for the sun and the trees and mom over there keeping her eye out.
>Three tiny squirrels fresh from the womb and the nest high in the tree
>seeking a moment to dash and curtsy and weave a spell of enchantment.
>One human caught up in the joyful dance of love has to be shown this.
>Another human catches the smile of delight on the face of one so dear.
>Squirrels run and play and ignore these silly humans who choose to
>adore.

That's it. When you see it, you know it. You know, you know, you know.
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: ogorman@unix1.tcd.ie (Lucifuge)
Subject: Re: sinead oconnor... verrrrryyy interesting
Organization: Trinity College, Dublin
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 11:10:23 GMT

In <1at9daINN5ha@bigboote.WPI.EDU> brenda@wpi.WPI.EDU (brenda) writes:


>i heard that sinead (shiny head, some call her  *hee hee*)  was on sat. night
>live a bit ago... i dont know if it was a rerun or whatever...
>but she aparently sang a song (dont know what it was... sorry)
>and then ripped up a picture of the pope, and said that it was time to fight
>the *real* enemy... 

About the only thing which I find interesting in this is Ms.O'Connors
ability to spew forward absolutely amazing amounts of absolutely amazing
bullshit.

Everyone knows the real enemy is the Bavarian Illuminati.

Ollie/Lucifuge...

--
---------------------------------------------------------------------
The Lord is my Shepherd..........................but I'm not a Sheep
--------------------------ogorman@unix1.tcd.ie-----------------------
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: markbr%radian@natinst.com (markbr)
Subject: Re: Birth data, etc...
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 17:07:01 GMT
Organization: Radian Cormp.

In article <1992Oct13.000234.18088@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> lrabe@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Lee A Rabe) writes:
>Delurking....
>
>Hello.  Can I add my birth date to the list?
>July 25, 1971, sometime in the morning.
>
>Oh, and my eyes are blue/grey/green (depending on the mood, environment,etc)
>Does this mean I can't be a pagan? :)
>
>TopCat

Naahh. I posted before that mine are blue/grey. Anybody don't like it, 
we can jump up and down on 'em.

	mark
From: mkkuhner@phylo.genetics.washington.edu (Mary K. Kuhner)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Astrology
Date: 12 Oct 92 17:15:13 GMT
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle

I was born July 6, 1963 in Seattle, WA; around noon, but I'm not
sure of the exact time.  (Fifteen years later my mother still
remembered that I'd made her miss breakfast *and* lunch--my siblings
had better manners.)

Mary Kuhner mkkuhner@genetics.washington.edu
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: st1rk@elroy.uh.edu (Maxwell, Darin)
Subject: Re: dark and light
Summary: dance of the dance, again 
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Keywords:  dance,hawk
Organization: University of Houston
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 00:10:00 GMT

fannin@news.cis.ohio-state.edu (elizabeth a fannin) writes...
>some of paul harvey et al's postings a short time back reminded me of the
>ursula k. leguin poem, something like (from memory): "bright the hawk's flight
>on the empty sky."  ah yes! now it comes back:
>"only in dying, life,
>only in darkness, light;
>bright the hawk's flight
>on the empty sky."
> 
>simple. evocative.  imho.

Agreed. The dance of the dance continues.

On my way in to school today, a hawk hovered over the freeway as I passed
beneath. He waited for me to pass and continued on, leaving my nerves in
an uproar and my mind sailing through the air with him. Being in tune with 
the universe.

Darin
--
Darin Maxwell             I'm sure you know all about the hedgehog
st1rk@jetson.uh.edu       and his sexual problems.
From: aph016@cch.coventry.ac.uk (ozzy)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: cats and magic (ritual circles)
Date: 8 Oct 92 12:36:03 GMT
Organization: none

In article <2OCT199217202754@rosie.uh.edu> lib1p@rosie.uh.edu (Tammy Stark Blandino) writes:
>>Hmmmm, are cats attracted to places of where magic is worked, or do 
>>they just like black velvet capes?  The way that cats' minds work, I'll
>>never know!
>> 
>>Does anyone else have cat stories to share?
>> 
>
>
>I have found with my own cats and with those of other pagans that
>cats are indeed attracted to places where magic is worked.  I think
>it might be true for all animals, cats are the only ones I have
>observed.
>

Something along these lines, my cat used to cross the ritual circle, 
during the ritual, without causing any problems. It just sat quietly until
I was finished, which is odd as it is usually very alert and active.

Apparently a friend of mine said that her little boy could also cross her 
circle without interference, any ideas as to why?




-- 
aph016@uk.ac.cov.cch
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson)
Subject: Re: Ceremony Suggestions?
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1992 05:59:03 GMT

christin@cae.wisc.edu (Christine Haas) writes:
: >
: >There are >NO< hygenic, or aesthetic or medical reasons to induce this
: >custom that *was* practiced by the ancient Egyptians for certain religious
: >purposes. 
: 
: I beg to differ on this point!  Circumcisions are done to AVOID 
: infections - which are quite common since bacteria can gather
: in the folds and cause very painful infections.  In face, a couple
: of my friends who were not cirucumcized at birth, had to be
: as adults due to infections -- and I can guarantee that it was NOT
: an enjoyable experience as you can imagine.  Save your son *a lot*
: of pain and possible complications later in his life -- get him
: circumcized now, while he still won't be able to remember the pain!

Sure, you can get infections - if you don't wash. However, I would
expect parents to be responsible enough to teach their son the proper
way to wash his penis. It is simple, it is quick. It might even teach
him early on that there is nothing "nasty" about his penis.  

As the poster stated - there is no medical reason for routine
circumcisions. It is simply a barbaric religious tradition that
was useful in an area that had little water for washing.

Bill
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: markbr%radian@natinst.com (markbr)
Subject: Re: The Dragon
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 18:03:30 GMT
Organization: Radian Corporation, Austin, Texas

In article <-1366780321snx@Gilsys.DIALix.oz.au> gil@Gilsys.DIALix.oz.au (Gil Hardwick) writes:
#
#In article <Bw2o69.AII@inews.Intel.COM> pharvey@mipos3.intel.com writes:
#
# > Why are Westerners always fighting and slaying the dragon if it does not
# > represent the Christian Devil? Why did St. Patrick eliminate snakes from
# > Ireland, according to legend? Why do so many fear snakes, are snakes
# > inherently evil (bad)? Which is worse, a snake biting a human or a human
# > slaping a mosquito? The real question is what exactly is the
# > Christian Devil? Is there a source of evil (bad) and can it be eliminated
# > and would the absence of evil (bad) in this world be a "good" thing? What
# > does it mean to have good without evil (bad)? Is that like life without
# > death?
#
#The Welsh are not devils but *foreigners*, aren't they?
#
#Gil
#
Ah, a linguist! Yes, I wonder how it feels to be called "foreigner" in your
native land... I suppose I know, having never felt very "Amurkan". In that
case, one values friends much more.

	mark
From: pierson@mpsg.mps.mlo.dec.com (dan pierson)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: help from you guys
Date: 7 Oct 92 04:38:52 GMT
	<2AD24F6F.27868@news.service.uci.edu>
	<2AD252EB.28154@news.service.uci.edu>
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation

Unfortunately, it seems likely that if he wants to make a fight of it
(and, worse, if he has active backing from the local Fundie pressure
groups) there's no way for you to prevent the class from being
disrupted if that's his intent.

Given that, I'd take a (reluctant) authoritarian posture and refuse to
argue at all on the gounds that that's not what the class is covering
(and freely state that going into it will lead to an unbounded
divergence from what they're supposed to be studying).  Actually I
probably wouldn't do that and would get tempted in arguing, but that's
what I *should* do.

If an argument is forced, I believe that Stephen J. Gould has
presented some very effective scientific rebuttals to creationism.
Orson Scott Card's "Secular Humanist Revival Meeting" tape also has
some good material.  Arguing on a scientific basis is probably better
than religious debunking.  However, scientifically debunking the
creationist position is probably much better than trying the defend
the "Theory of Evolution" against the usual attack that it's "only a
theory". 

IMHO, one of your knee jerk reactions is also possible, but dangerous:
"All kinds of mutually contradictory creation myths are supported by
religion.  Why should one supersede the others?".  Use it only if
you're prepared to argue comparative religion with someone who may
know a lot more than you expect.

May Athena and Brigit guide your argument,

                                       dan
--
Dan L. Pierson          Digital Equipment Corporation
pierson@crl.dec.com     Massively Parallel Systems Group
From: kingsley@hpwrce.mayfield.hp.com (Kingsley Morse)
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 23:38:00 GMT
Subject: Please Help
Organization: HP Western Response Center