From: billie@camelot.bradley.edu (Eliot Frick)
Subject: Re: Sexual Harassment
Keywords: obnoxious behavior
Organization: The Alexander Skryabin Society
Distribution: na
Date: 19 Nov 92 05:37:20 GMT

In <92Nov18.231951.32498@acs.ucalgary.ca> panlilio@acs.ucalgary.ca (Victor P. Panlilio) writes:

>In article <billie.722046592@camelot> billie@camelot.bradley.edu (Eliot Frick) writes:

>>It is unfortunate, to say the least that the paranoia surrounding "sexual
>>harassment" has digressed to it's current state.  Having been accused of

>Yes, it's unfortunate, isn't it, that more and more women keep
>getting raped, and that women in the U.S. feel that they have to
>carry handguns to protect themselves from their dates. Tsk, tsk.

...and I blame sanctimonious people who think that their views on sexuality
should be juxtiposed on the whole of society...

>>sexual harassment, for what I thought was harmless flirting (I asked a girl
>>to kiss me,) I know the lengths that people will go to sequester their

>If this is the case, maybe you had not picked up signals that she
>did not wish to be kissed, hmmmm? (I speak as a disadvantaged
>person, since I am extremely nearsighted and am almost blind
>without my glasses -- funny that I should be a photographer).

I didn't force myself on her.  Where have we come that asking for a kiss is
a crime.  Jeez.

>>sexuality from the rest of the world.  I have a real problem with accusing
>>people of sexual harassment for simply making 1st person sexual comments.

>It's all a matter of context. Jennifer complained of receiving
>*obnoxious* E-mail, and then Mr. Long-Man here posted a reply,
>presumably in jest, but in the context in which Jennifer was
>complaining, was hardly appropriate -- to say the least. Is this
>so difficult to see? Asking someone to have sexual intercourse
>with you, even in jest, in a public newsgroup, on the Usenet, is
>equivalent to propositioning someone in a public gathering where
>explicit sexual requests can be clearly heard. Given the context
>in which Jennifer posted, this can be construed as harassment,
>even if it was not intended to be such. I'm inclined to believe
>that Mr. Long-Man did not anticipate such a vitriolic reaction
>from me or others on the net, but it would seem that his idea of
>common decency does not coincide with that of the majority here.

>So even if in your view it may not be harassment, it is crude and
>vulgar and betrays the poorest possible human judgment, anyway.

Agreed.  Poor judgement is as far as I can go.  I refuse to call it sexual
harassment.

>>supercedes mere investigation.  It also serves to perpetuate the attitude
>>(an attitude which I have seen pervade most of American culture,) that
>>sexuality is a bad thing; and that discussion of sex is even more evil.

>Discussion of sex is not evil if it is done in the context of a
>neutral power balance. Discussion of sex *is* evil if you are a
>6'5" 250-pound linebacker holding down a 5'2" 100-pound wisp of a
>woman and asking her if she wants rear entry while she tries to
>squirm out from under you and is yelling and screaming for help.

>(actually, in this case, she probably wouldn't *dare* scream...)

>"No" means NO.

I still have a hard time believing that "Jennifer" could have been
intimidated.  She can't get raped by a screen.

>>Talking about sex, even in the most candid of terms is NOT rape.  However,

>Again, context. Talking about sex with, say, someone who has been
>raped, is *different* from talking about sex with someone who is
>unzipping your fly with one hand and unhooking her bra with her
>other hand. In the latter case, you usually talk about condoms.

True.  But it is still not a crime; Bad taste, lack of tact...maybe.

>>using the threat of loosing one's job or security if sexual demands are not
>>met is a different story, and the form of "sexual harassment" should be
>>more aptly named "sexual extortion."

>Yup. Sexual harrassment is when your bottom gets pinched by MOTAS
>while you stand at the office copier or at the water cooler.

No argument there.  I agree fully.  Still, physical contact is different
than simply talking about sex.

>>Eliot Frick
>>President, The Alexander Skryabin Society.
>		^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Hmmm. Pardon my ignorance, but who exactly do *you* represent?

Ever heard of the John Birch Society?  Nothing like them.
..or maybe just like them... It's hard to say.

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