HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jnielsen@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (John F Nielsen)
Subject: Re: Opinions: 4runner, Explorer and Pathfinder
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 15:39:26 GMT

>Consumer magazines usually recommend the Explorer over the Jeep despite
>the superiority of the Jeep suspension, probably because it is quite
>a bit cheaper and has more room. 

If you are talking about Consumer Reports, I'd like to know where you
got that idea. They recently tested some 4x4's and preferred the Grand
Cherokee over the Explorer.

john
-- 
John Nielsen   MAGNUS Consultant            ______   ______   __  __	
jnielsen@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu         /\  __ \ /\  ___\ /\ \/\ \
                                           \ \ \/\ \\ \___  \\ \ \_\ \
  Back off man, I'm a Scientist!            \ \_____\\/\_____\\ \_____\
Newsgroups: rec.autos
From: jmh@Turing.ORG (Jeffrey M. Hoffmeister)
Subject: Re: How About that Ford!
Organization: The Turing Project, Public Access Internet Host
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 12:50:26 GMT

In article <1993Jan6.234804.18541@pentagon-gw.army.mil> grant@pentagon-gw.army.mil (Pete Grant) writes:
>The news is out and official:  Ford Taurus is the best selling
>car in the United States, beating out Honda Accord that has
>held this spot for nearly 10 years now.
>
>Well done, Ford!


Not so fast, according to Automobile Magazine.
The 10 best selling cars for the '92 model year are:

Honda Accord                           387,881
Ford Taurus                            347,534
Toyota Camary                          277,792
Ford Escort                            244,231
Chevrolet Lumina                       219,120
Ford Tempo                             213,352
Chevrolet Cavalier                     212,675
Toyota Corolla                         206,560
Honda Civic                            204,842
Pontiac Grand Am                       198,596

Sales data compiled by AUTOFACTS of West Chester PA.


Newsgroups: rec.autos
From: denise@arabia.uucp (Denise Difilippo)
Subject: Re: Signed Deal - Sable (Was Dealer Prep Ought to be Road Kill)
Organization: Lockheed ESC, Houston
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 15:37:27 GMT

In article <1ioeodINN4e0@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> ah190@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Stuart Pearl) writes:
>
>Earlier I had expressed some aggravation about car salesmen and
>"dealer prep" fees in general, and sought your opinions.  I just
>signed for a '93 Mercury Sable and managed to get the price I stood
>by - this was $237 over factory invoice (not counting additional year
>end hold back the dealer will get from the factory).  I thought this
>was a pretty good deal - bargaining up from invoice, rather than down
>from sticker (they hate this;  "Look how much I'm knocking off the
>sticker just for you....")  I'm no expert at car bargaining but offer
>the following for others in similar straits.
>

<lots of details deleted>


>
>The following morning he called back and said they'd accept the offer,
>but I had to come in before closing (no problem) and I'd have to put
>down a deposit for $5,000 since it was such a "uniquely ordered car"
>(B.S. but who cares).  The money wasn't an issue with us since we'd
>been saving a while and this was the plan anyway (I don't like car


lots of good advice, including:

>
>
>ORDER FORM SCRATCH - Do you always buy off the lot?  Good deals can be
>found that way, but very often it costs money to "carry" a car on the
>lot for a while.  They're going to try to recoup that from you.  By
>ordering from the factory you may wait 4-8 weeks, but the car never
>hits the lot and it's less work for them.  That's the approach I've
>always taken and pay $200-250 over invoice.  And when you order from
>the factory, you get what you want, not what they sold you.
>
>PREPARE TO WALK - YOU can always walk out and come back.  But they
>can't always GET you to come back.  YOU'RE in control.  When they
>won't budge or decide to be insulting, grab your coat.
>
>
>-stu
>-- 
>                   ---===<<< Stuart Pearl >>>===---
>                           Cleveland, Ohio
>                      ah190@cleveland.freenet.edu
>                         --------------------


Last summer I negotiated a similar deal, only to discover that
having a deal on paper did not necessarily translate to a
car in my hands.  I'll skip the gory details, but the deal
that they tried to close (after I waited 6 weeks for my 
special order car) was not *exactly* the same as the one I
had in writing from them.  The dealers attitude was 
somewhere between "take it or leave it" and "so sue me".
I eventually got my deposit back, walked away from the car 
and straight to another dealer.  I hope you'll have better 
luck, but be warned that it is harder to be prepared to 
walk away from a deal when they are holding $5K of your money.
I was worried, and I had only given them a $500 deposit.
Good luck.

denise
From: hhd0@newshost.gte.com (Horace Dediu)
Newsgroups: rec.autos
Subject: Re: warm up a car in winter again: anyone can tell me where i can read something regarding this? my wife is stubborn!!! (women!!!!!!)
Date: 7 Jan 93 22:09:43 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: GTE Laboratories, Waltham, MA

In article <C0Hy96.K5M@news.iastate.edu>, rdu@iastate.edu (Runqing Du) writes:
|> I need something solid to change my wife's mind from warming up our car
 too long. Could someone please tell me where i can find some written proof that 
excessive idling is harmfull to the car and you can warm up your car by driving
 mildly at the beginning|> . It's hard to change a person's mind if this person
 happens to be your wife and a believer of first learning!!!!!!!!

Look it up in the owner's manual.  Call a mechanic, talk to the dealer.
I personally warm up my car for 5 to 10 seconds, or however long it takes me
to put on my seatbelt.  I remember hearing from Click and Clack, the Tappet
brothers on NPR's Cartalk that you should *never* "warm up" your car.  Even
if it stalls, drive it.  It's the major reason for early rebuilds.

BTW, with no warmup, my Dodge ran through 110,000 miles without any
engine problems, and I live in New England.

Follow your user's manual.  For some cars (Lamborghini comes to mind, or some
other 12 cylinder cars,) warm-up is necessary to get smooth performance, but
for most cars it's not.
-- 
Horace Dediu                                                  GTE Laboratories
(617) 466-4111                                                40 Sylvan Road
Internet: hdediu@gte.com                                      Waltham, MA 02254
From: etlclem@etlxd30.ericsson.se (Carl JF Ekstrom)
Newsgroups: rec.autos
Subject: FOR SALE: CAMARO IROC-Z (Sweden or UK)
Date: 7 Jan 93 12:14:08 GMT
Reply-To: etlclem@etlxd30.ericsson.se
Organization: Ericsson Telecom, Burgess Hill, England

Hi All.

Since I'm moving (again!) I have to sell my IROC-Z asap, so it'll be cheap!
                                                                     =====
Camaro IROC-Z Z-28, 1989
Black.
305 EFI (5 liter) V8
EXCELLENT condition, ~7500 miles (12000 km) on the clock.
Nice alarm system.
Approved for Enthusiast Car Insurance (cheap insurance!!!)
Exempt from pollution laws (Slap a Paxton on it, it's legal!!!).
No T-tops :-(

The car is in Sweden right now and hasn't been driven that much since I shipped it
back to Sweden in the summer of 91 since I spend most of my time here in the U.K.
It's been in a heated garage when not driven.

Go ahead, You know you want it!

Send me a mail (etlclem@etlxd20.ericsson.se) and I'll let you know more.

Cheers / Carl

Carl JF Ekstrom
Ericsson Telecom, Burgess Hill, England
Newsgroups: rec.autos
From: nau@ssesco.com (William Nau)
Subject: Re: Dealer Prep Ought to be Road Kill!
Organization: SSESCO
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 21:11:53 GMT

>Just what is "dealer prep" anyway?
>
  [horrible experience with dealer adding to the price of the car deleted]

Dealer Inspection, Dealer Prep, Advertising, and Delivery Charge are all
part of the the dealers profit.  If he expects to be paid for it, it should
be included in his profit.  

In normal transactions, we give the seller a profit.  Why?  Because of the
services he provides.  For some reason, car dealers think we should pay for
the services AND still give them profit.  They are not two seperate things.
They are the same.  If the dealer really deserves that much extra then he
should not be deceptive about it and keep adding to the price.  It's a 
misleading, decptive method of selling a car.  It's too bad that it's become
the norm in car sales.

-- 
William R. Nau
Supercomputer Systems Engineering and Services Company (SSESCO)
511 11th Avenue South, Suite 216
Minneapolis, Minnesota 55415-1536
(612) 342-0003

nau@SSESCO.com
From: stnd@bohr.physics.purdue.edu (Scott N. Dickson)
Newsgroups: rec.autos
Subject: Accuracy of Used car pricing guides
Summary: Relevance?
Date: 5 Jan 93 16:12:34 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Purdue University Physics Department




I was looking at the "Pace" used car pricing guide the other day.
They conveniently forgot to mention where they were getting their
numbers.  Does anybody know??

Thanks,

Scott


Newsgroups: rec.autos
From: wchutt@alex.monsanto.com (Bill C Hutton)
Subject: MR-2 future?
Organization: Monsanto Company
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 21:20:20 GMT


Recently this newsgroup had postings indicating 1993 was the last year
for Toyota's MR-2. Since I own a '91 turbo I am concerned.


Would anyone care to comment on how this news (if it is in fact true)
will effect resale values? 

SHould I trade this car ***now*** before I
take a big hit in resale value? Is there any chance the value will hold given
there may not be too many inexpensive new high
performance two-seaters available in the future?
From: tut@cairo.Eng.Sun.COM (Bill "Bill" Tuthill)
Newsgroups: rec.autos
Subject: Re: Why is US engine technology so retrograde?
Date: 8 Jan 1993 19:43:59 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems Inc., Mountain View, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: cairo

I appreciate all the good answers, thanks.  A few more questions:

eliot@stalfos.engr.washington.edu (eliot) writes:
> 				Mostly I think that it is simply
> not fashionable to be pushrod, just as it is starting to become
> unfashionable to have "only" 2 valves per cylinder, never mind
> that it offers better low end than a 4 valve.

Do you mean by "low end" that 2 VPC offers more torque at low RPMs
than 4 VPC?  Why would this be?

rhaar@albert.cs.gmr.com (Bob Haar at G.M. Research Lab) writes:
>
> Large displacement, push rod engines produce more torque
> at low speeds and a much wider powerband. 

Do the push rods have anything to do with this, or is it simply the
large displacement?  I know push rod engines can be extremely durable,
having known plenty of American engines that made it past 300k (old
Chevy Novas and Dodge slant-6s were noted for durability), but what
about disadvantages such as rod knock?  Are there any disadvantages
of the DOHC design?

Xref: sparky rec.autos:31087 rec.autos.tech:17497
From: keys@starchild.ncsl.nist.gov (Lawrence B. Keys)
Newsgroups: rec.autos,rec.autos.tech
Subject: Re: Red Line MTL
Keywords: Red Line
Date: 6 Jan 93 19:27:23 GMT
Followup-To: rec.autos
Organization: National Institute of Standards & Technology

In article <1993Jan6.162311.25995@hubcap.clemson.edu> jayc@hubcap.clemson.edu (Jay Crawford) writes:
>I'd like to change the gear box oil in my Saab 900 to something that will 
>make it shift a bit smoother and hopefully reduce wear-and-tear.  I have
>heard Red Line MTL is a good product.  Does anyone have any good/bad    
>experiences with Red Line they can share with me? Also, where's a good place to mail order it?  Thanks.
>
>-- 
>Jay Crawford          
>jayc@hubcap.clemson.edu


I put Red Line MTL synthetic transmission oil in my car early this 
summer.  Shifting seemed a bit smoother, however, in terms of shifting
during the winter when the car is cold, there is a great improvement.

I didn't buy it mail order though. There is a local supply store. The 
number for Red Line is:

(510) 228-7576 

sorry i don't have the "800" #
                                                  .  
                                                 /                
Larry                            __/    _______/_                 
keys@csmes.ncsl.nist.gov       /                  \               
                          _____     __     _____    \------- ===
            ----------- / ____/   /  /   /__  __/              \
         /     ___    /  / ___   /  /      / /    ____          |
        |    /      \/ /__ /  | /  /__  __/ /__ /       \      / 
        /___         \_______/ /_____/ /______/            ====OO
            \       /                           \       /         
                -                                   -
       ---------------- FAHRVERGNUGEN FOREVER! --------------------            
            The fact that I need to explain it to you indicates
            that you probably wouldn't understand anyway!
       ------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.autos
From: mart@csri.toronto.edu (Mart Molle)
Subject: Re: Mini-van or utility vehicle...4WD vs gas mileage
Date: 5 Jan 93 16:21:30 GMT

br@cs.cmu.edu (Bill Ross) writes:

> prange@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Henry Prange) writes:

>> Unless you have a huge bladder and so have no need to stop for hundreds of
>> miles, your concern with mileage is misplaced. Fuel costs, especially with
>> gas so cheap in the US, are a small part of the cost of ownership. The
>> difference between 18 mpg and 25mpg will be trivial.
>> 
>> Get an Explorer.

Let me second that opinion.  If you plan to use the vehicle for long
trips, and want/need the extra space, don't be afraid to get the larger
vehicle because of the cost of gas.  For example, I just drove 6000 miles
over Christmas from Toronto to Los Angeles and return.  Total cost
of fuel was about US$330 (4.0L Aerostar, averaging about 21 miles/USgal).
Total cost of motels was about US$275 (2 nights westbound, 3 nights
eastbound at about $55/night).  This is comparable to the cost of *one*
round-trip airplane ticket [and I'm sure I used less fuel than one
passenger's worth too], but it was enough to get my family of 5 + dog
and a ton of gear back and forth safely and comfortably.  The same trip
would have been more expensive (if not impossible) in a smaller, more
fuel efficient vehicle, because none of us could have survived driving
and/or being confined to one spot for 15 hours per day for 3 days straight.

[Yes, I know from experience that a Sable wagon is Too Small for a family
to survive more than 500-600 miles/day of long distance travelling, whereas
the Aerostar allowed us to average about 1000 miles/day...]

>  Is this really true?  It depends on how much you drive, of 
>  course.  Consider a vehicle owned for 150K miles.  Assume gas 
>  costs $1.30/gal (it may increase with a new gas tax this year).

>          $1.30 * 150,000 miles / 18 mpg = $10,833
>          $1.30 * 150,000 miles / 25 mpg =  $7,800

>  This is a difference of over $3,000, which is more than I have
>  ever paid for service over the life of a car and pretty close
>  to the cost of insurance for the life of a car.  For some cars,
>  in fact, total gas costs may be the largest expense, even greater
>  than the original purchase price of the car.

I don't think you're being at all fair here.  If you really expect
to keep your car for 150K miles, *DEPRECIATION* is going to be your
largest expense.

As to funding the cost of your insurance, I suggest that most people
drive about 15K-20K miles per year.  At that rate, it would take 8-10
years to accumulate 150K miles.  Can you really insure your car for
only $300 - $400 year?  I certainly can't, and I am in a very low
risk category.

Mart L. Molle
Computer Systems Research Institute
University of Toronto
Toronto, Canada M5S 1A4
(416)978-4928
From: lstowell@pyrnova.mis.pyramid.com (Lon Stowell)
Newsgroups: rec.autos
Subject: Re: Get a car heated in winter: How long is appropriate?
Keywords: Heating
Date: 8 Jan 93 00:26:43 GMT
Reply-To: lstowell@pyrnova.pyramid.com.pyramid.com (Lon Stowell)
Organization: Pyramid Technology Corporation

In article <issa.726378659@cwis> issa@cwis.unomaha.edu (Issa El-Hazin) writes:
>
>From what I've read, the latest news on this is, you shouldn't warm up the
>car [while parked] for more than a [very] few minutes. The car should warm 
>up nicely while driving it. I'm not sure if the reason given was for gas 
>economy, it's better for the engine, or both. Does anybody have more info 
>on this?
 
    Well, while the car is idling you are getting 0 miles per
    gallon....so the ecofreaks do have a legit complaint.

    The real problem with warming up the engine in this manner is
    that most drivers then assume that the REST of the car is warmed
    up to operating temperature.  The suspension, tires,
    transmission, etc. all really need to be warmed up gradually in
    cold areas.  This is SUPPOSED to be done by driving "gently" for
    the first few miles.

    Whether a cold driver ignoring traffic safety is sufficient
    danger compared to this is a personal decision.   

>I do know thou that you are not supposed to turn the heat on until the car 
>warmeed up. 
>
    Won't hurt a thing.  Its just that on water cooled cars, the
    thermostat doesn't send a whole heck of a lot of warm water to
    the heater until it begins to open.
From: lstowell@pyrnova.mis.pyramid.com (Lon Stowell)
Newsgroups: rec.autos
Subject: Re: Before Buying Japanese.
Date: 7 Jan 93 02:21:41 GMT
Reply-To: lstowell@pyrnova.pyramid.com.pyramid.com (Lon Stowell)
Distribution: usa
Organization: Pyramid Technology Corporation

In article <1993Jan6.020426.11228@EE.Stanford.EDU> sahul@loading-zone.Stanford.EDU (Zakir H. Sahul) writes:
>How about:
>
>Economic reasons:
>
>0) The number of cars that the Germans sell here is much smaller (than what the
>   Japanese sell).
>
    That's true TODAY, but back when the "Japanese invasion"
    started, it certainly wasn't.  And the German car companies made
    many of the same mistakes the American car companies did...they
    kept TELLING people what to buy instead of building cars people
    will buy.

>1) The German market is more open to US goods - they buy our computers, our
>   software, some auto components etc. etc.  The Japanese market is not as
>   open.
>
    You have obviously never dealt with the Bundespost, NTT, or KDD.

>Other reasons:
>
>2) The press has not reported German politicians calling Americans stupid 
>   and lazy.
>
    No, the press often has its own agenda...and likes to blame
    everybody else for its own problems.  But that doesn't mean the
    German politicians DON'T say things like that.  Nor
    unfortunately does it mean that the Japanese politicians making
    the statement are WRONG......

>3) Racism.

    Yeah, I'd have to say most of the Japan bashing is pure
    unadulterated racism very poorly cloaked in self-styled
    patriotism.  

    Now that Jews are indistinguishable from WASPS, and you take
    your life in your hands 'dissin blacks, you still need somebody
    ELSE to pick on rather than taking a cold hard look in the
    mirror.
Newsgroups: rec.autos
From: karen@synopsys.com (Karen Vahtra)
Subject: Re: Explorer seats
Keywords: n
Organization: Synopsys, Inc.
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 20:24:47 GMT

}With the Explorer, I absolutely had to get the leather seats because
}the standard XLT cloth seats were awful, but the standard cloth seats
}in the Jeep Grand Cherokee Laredo are pretty nice.

IMHO, I really dislike the leather and sport bucket seats of the Explorer.
They are super hard.  I only like the standard cloth seats.
From: lstowell@pyrnova.mis.pyramid.com (Lon Stowell)
Newsgroups: rec.autos
Subject: Re: Before Buying Japanese.
Date: 5 Jan 93 00:11:33 GMT
Reply-To: lstowell@pyrnova.pyramid.com.pyramid.com (Lon Stowell)
Organization: Pyramid Technology Corporation

In article <0rsr3sr@lynx.unm.edu> bhjelle@carina.unm.edu writes:
>>
>So what has Detroit produced to compete with the Corolla, the Civic,
>and the Integra, for those of us who happen to give a shit about
>the environment and want to get better MPG? And, while we're
>at it, for those of us who don't care to pay $25-50K for our
>next car?
>
   So continue to drive your little shit-boxes and observe the
   mistletoe strategically placed on my blazer....


>Last time I checked  -about 1 year ago-  there was only the Saturn,
>a loss-leader that can't possibly continue to operate in its
>present configuration (ie, losing $1000s per car manufactured).
>
   Hmmmmmmm, have you paid much attention to the direction of travel
   of the prices of Japanese cars lately?  Or how many of the lower
   priced units are really made in Korea or elsewhere?   If your
   import NUMBERS are limited by trade agreement, only an idiot
   would bring in low-priced models compared to mid-priced and luxo
   models except to meet CAFE numbers.


   Yeah, it's too bad about the Saturn...its a "nice" car, but can't
   compare with cheaper foreign competition.  Seems even with "new"
   design and manufacturing, the US car makers seem to still confuse
   "inexpensive" with "cheap".  But there are some nice NUMMI cars
   available, even though they are not pure domestics.
From: rambler@pnet51.orb.mn.org (Dan Meyer)
Newsgroups: rec.autos,rec.autos.tech
Subject: Re: ++Head Gasket/Cracked Head Help!++
Date: 7 Jan 93 00:25:02 GMT
Organization: People-Net [pnet51], Minneapolis, MN.

norcott_bill@tandem.com (Bill Norcott) writes:
>In article <1993Jan5.151141.20168@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>, mgarber@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Max D Garber) writes:
>|> I have an '83 Pontiac 2000 SE.  On New Year's Eve, it decided to blow the
>|> Head Gasket and it might have put a crack in the Head itself.  I am looking
>|> for ball-park estimates on what this might cost me to repair.  I am debating
>|> either a new engine or a new car.  Would you know what a new engine would
>|> cost me?
>
>If it's just the gasket, it costs about $25 plus your time.  Even if
>it's a cracked head you don't need a whole new engine.  You can get a
>remanufactured head from JC Whitney for $300-400 + shipping and it
>is pretty much a bolt-on replacement.
>-- 

How can one be sure that the block is not also cracked?

-- Dan

Remember: " Buffalo never Oink " Seen on a South Dakota travel brocure.
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From: yzhang@acsu.buffalo.edu (Yinong Zhang)
Newsgroups: rec.autos
Subject: Good deal? 87 Toyota LE
Date: 12 Jan 93 05:10:08 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: UB


Hi, everyone:


       I am looking for a used car to buy. What do you think about the followingone?


       87 Toyota Camera LE
       59K miles
       Power everything
       No rust
       First owner and have all the record.
       Clean.
       Repair? Changed flying wheel and starter two years ago.
       Repair? Changed right front suspension two years ago.
       Air
       Auto tran
       white with mathing bumpers
       Car alarm
       nice radio and tape
       
       $ 6,000


       Good deal or not. I want to know your opnion soon. (not from dealer, I'llbuy it from a private person.


Thanks,


Chang
Newsgroups: rec.autos