From: dieter@informatik.rwth-aachen.de (Dieter Kreuer)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Germans and Jews
Followup-To: soc.culture.german,soc.culture.jewish
Date: 27 Jan 1993 10:31:53 GMT
Organization: i4
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: frueh-koelsch.informatik.rwth-aachen.de

In article <1993Jan26.034806.19799@husc3.harvard.edu>,
abkevich@husc3.harvard.edu wrote:
> 
> In article <dieter-250193104759@frueh-koelsch.informatik.rwth-aachen.de>, 
> dieter@informatik.rwth-aachen.de (Dieter Kreuer) writes:

> > Recently, mass graves of German soldiers have been found in ex-GDR,
> > (Poland, too?) and Russian historians have admitted that mass executions of 
> > German soldiers have been committed by the Red Army on German ground.
> 
> These murders should be investigated but there were probably some "reasons" for
> them. As I said from Soviet point of view by 1945 all SS members should be shot
> without any further investigation. Or people who looked like SS member, or was
> suspected in being interested in SS membership... I am not going to say that 
> Stalin was interested injustice. He never was. However for Red Army was quite
> unusual to murder German prisoners (otherwise Germany losses would be much 
> higher). On the other hand most part of Russian prisoners didn't survive. They 
> were rarely shot - most part died from starvation).

Okay, but you see that cruelty existed on both sides. I don't know what the
situation was for Russian prisoners in German camps, I can only imagine.
If you say, that most died of starvation, this sounds logical, since at the
end of the war, Germany in general was starving, so the ones who would die
first were the captured hostile troops.

> > True. The Nazis rated them not higher than the Jews, so they were killed.
> > I do not doubt that German camps were crueler than Russian ones. 
> 
> German camps were crueler than Russin ones? It is true if you are talking about
> Russian camps for Germans.

That's what I meant. As I said, I don't know what the situation was for
Russians in German camps or vice versa, the historical coverage is mostly
about Jews and not Russians, but I think a the greatest fraction of German 
POWs returned home eventually, while most Russians were killed. Is this 
true?

> >> 1. Don't you think that it is to easy to explane millions of brutaly murdered
> >> by a small group of dangerous criminals? 
> > 
> > See above. Select the right persons, organize them in a pyramid, give
> > orders from above and shoot everybody not obeying to them. 
> 
> That is a problem: you need a pyramid. Every next level is less cruel, but have
> to stand cruelties of the previous level. It's not kind of exercise which will
> make your heart softer. Ever read Remark?

No. What's the name of his book?
Such a pyramid of obediance is the basis of every army. If it is broken
at some high level, a coup can happen, while, on the other hand, a change
of
mind from the topmost level may lead to a peaceful change, like Gorbachev
did it. If the pyramid is very strongly organized, like the one in former 
Soviet Union or in Nazi Germany, a coup is not very probable. If it is weak
like in Romania or the SU before the coup of '91, it can happen.
The Nazis had spend a lot of time in organizing a strong pyramid (by the
use of propaganda and force), which allowed them to conduct their atroci-
ties later. It took its head to be kicked off to break the pyramid in the 
end.

> > That is exactly why we, living today and looking back from the lazy chair,
> > should be careful to judge those who lived then. We should not excuse their
> > deeds, but consider the causes. We should learn from them, where their
> > faults were, and how we can prevent them to be made again.
> >  
> 
> I am not judging them. I could understand them. I pity them. But I am also have
> to condemn them and their deeds. Because a man has at least moraly answer for 
> what he did and what he didn't.

In that, I agree. Didn't the Germans after the war admit their moral
faults?
Nobody could revert the incidents of the war, all what could be done was
revoking humanity, admitting one's failures, trying to achieve a friendly
relationship with other countries and paying for the damage. The latter may
seem cynical, but really, what else could have been done? The ones guilty
were punished. With the allies (except for the SU), a very good relation-
ship had been developed, and at least a normal one with Israel (this may 
not be the opinion of many Israelis, but most Germans support this state,
even when there is sometimes criticism about certain actions). Think of
the German patriot launchers sent to Israel during the Iraqi attacks. 
 
> > This might be true. But they will learn, too. Now, they get the same books
> > at school as we did, and they will encounter more foreign people in their
> > daylife than in ex-GDR.
> > 
> 
> I hope they will. But we are talking about nowdays, aren't we?

True, but remember that the east makes up only 40 % of the German popula-
tion, and that most East Germans are not racist at all. There are just 
more racists relative to the population. This is because they haven't 
grown up with many foreigners.

> Doesn't it mean that average white Southern has more against the blacks than
> the average white Yankee? You could also see how people voted. 60% of white
> population of Louisiana voted for Duke who is a former member of KKK, who
> celebrated Hitler's birthday last year and made his election compain as an open
> anti-black and anti-Jewish Southern. He is not a governor only because 30% of
> Louisiana's population is black.

So, facism is not just a German problem. If here, 60 % would vote for
right extremist parties ... what would the Jews say (and be right with it)?
The votes for right extremist parties are below 5 %, which is few compared
to France or Italy (another former facist country, but hardly ever men-
tioned when this subject is dealt with). Still, 5 % are 5 % too much.
   
> > A Nazi stays a Nazi, no matter how hard he is punished. However, someone
> > who has been cheated and misused by the government, like the GDR citizens,
> > or those of Russia, or most Germans during the Nazi era, will learn their
> > faults.     
> 
> It might take longer time than people would remember, how they were cheated and
> misused. You can see that former Communists parties in Eastern Europe changed 
> their name and recieve more and more votes on each elections, cleverly using 
> economic decline.

True. Maybe people don't know who they shall vote for because they don't
know democracy. Maybe this danger had also existed in the case of post-war
Germany. However, today, we have two generations of democratically experi-
enced folks (in the west, at least; one fourth of unexperienced ones in the
east will not ruin our democracy, either).

>BTW, do you think that Germans learned a lot from WW1?

What exactly? Others have already stated that WW1 was very different from 
WW2 in the sense that it was wanted by all participators. It was not an 
aggression of one country direct to a single other. Therefore, the Germans
did not regard it as a German fault, only as a German defeat, and a good
reason for the Nazis to declare revenge. The dimensions were different, 
too. The civil population had not been affected as much as in WW2.
Comparing WW1 and WW2 is comparing apples and oranges, which does not
allow to draw any conlusion about nowadays Germans.

> > I was talking about how people regarded the American troopers: As libera-
> > tors, send from an ideal country.
> > A people which has this point of view can be expected to adopt the same
> > rationals as its idol. 
> 
> But this will not make them the same as Americans. Look, I've talked with many
> Russian Jews. They all idealised US. They fled here because of several reasons.
> So what will they say after 5 days in States? "I KNOW what this country need. 
> (He is 5 days here. But he already knows. He was not allowed to have his own
> opinion in Russia. It was one of the reasons for emigration. But he will not 
> let me have my own opinion.) It is too soft. We should give more power to the 
> police. (He left his country because he was afraid of KGB. Now he is begging
> for a strong power). These blacks... (In Russia he never had black friends,
> quite probably have never talked with them, and even probably have never seen
> them. He suffered from anti-semitism. Now he is ready to be a rasist himself.)"
> Do you need more examples? Mentality is not a thing which might be changed so
> easily. 

This is true for individuals, not for generations. The younger generation
often adopts a very contraversal opinion towards the attitude of their
parents.
What also counts is what they are taught in school. Maybe you should
take a look at what's happening in German schools of today (and has du-
ring the last 20-30 years or so). Pupils are educated to make their own 
decisions, to vote other pupils which talk for them to the teachers
in "political" questions. They are together with children form other
countries in one class. They play together with them. The older ones
have political youth organizations (with environmentalist and leftist
groups being strongest). They are interested in environmental problems
and peace. They are anti-nationalist and pro-Europe. This compares hardly
to the school system in the former SU.
Within 30-40 years, those pupils will govern our country. I don't 
think that facism has a chance again here, at least not during our
lifetime and the one of our grandchildren.

Best Regards,

-----------------------                  ---------------------------------
     Dieter Kreuer      ##     ======== / dieter@informatik.rwth-aachen.de
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