From: kebarnes@memstvx1.memst.edu
Newsgroups: alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.rush-limbaugh
Subject: Re: A Stolen Life, A Dying Soul
Date: 5 Jan 93 11:54:26 -0600
Organization: Memphis State University

In article <nate.998@psygate.psych.indiana.edu>,
nate@psygate.psych.indiana.edu (Nathan Engle) writes:

> kebarnes@memstvx1.memst.edu (Ken Barnes) writes:
& nate@psygate.psych.indiana.edu (Nathan Engle) writes: 
& sbooth@lonestar.utsa.edu (Simon E. Booth) writes:

Booth (referencing previous post concerning Bob Greene's column
about a group of teenagers (13-15) who murdered and mutilated one of
their younger "friends" (7), and the relationship of that crime
to an increasing "soullessness" of American society):

I read this and was sickened by it.  All I've got to say is that's what
the death penalty is for.  I honestly hope those three killers get the
gas chamber, no appeals.

Engle:
I read the original post, but my reaction was merely to be saddened. 
Perhaps my study of history has inured me to violence, but it's difficult 
for me to get too overwrought about individual cases like this one.

Barnes:
>>Reminds me of a quote (don't infer insult from this):

Engle:
> Not at all. As a matter of fact I would say that my muted reactions 
> to violence are perhaps part of a larger problem in that many, many people 
> feel much the same as I do. It's really tough to listen to reports of 
> brutal teenage killers without it getting a little old after a while. We 
> have two other teenage killer cases going on in the news here in Indiana, 
> one in which a girl was killed by a group of other girls, and one in which 
> a teenage boy confessed to a murder that occurred down in Florida. I'm sure 
> that Simon is correct that I should be outraged, but in the context of all 
> the other stuff going on I just can't work up the energy to be equally 
> outraged by every single case.

Barnes (cont'd):
>>"A single death is a tragedy, a million deaths
>>is a statistic."--Joseph Stalin
>> 
>>"Uncle Joe" [The Great Satan] knew whereof he spoke.

Engle:
> He certainly did. 

Booth (stuff deleted):
Call me crude, but something must be done.

Engle:
I think that your gut reaction may lead you to wish for something less 
than purely poetic justice. IMHO the most appropriate thing that could be 
done would be to throw those three guys and a case of A1 sauce into a cell 
with Jeffery Dahmer. (There you go, Simon, you weren't nearly as crude 
as me)

Barnes: 
>>What are we to make of the case of Wesley Allan Dodd, convicted serial
>>child rapist-murderer in Washington state who says he wishes to
>>be executed by hanging, since that is what he did to the 4-year-old
>>boy who was his last victim?

Engle:
>     I guess we'd better call in "Dr Dripper"; sounds like a prime candidate 
> for Dr-assisted suicide if every I saw one.

Barnes: 
>>I find it discouraging that the ACLU wishes to contest this proposal,
>>and that the only way it seems for someone such as Dodd to be put
>>out of his own misery and everyone else's is for him to request that
>>the execution be carried out, ala: Gary Gilmore's request for a
>>Utah firing squad.

Engle:
>     The ACLU seems to base its fights on principles which are not always 
> based in practicalities, but I can think of too many examples of other 
> groups that seem to have that same problem to want to get too deeply into 
> that topic.

Barnes:
>>It also seems curious that liberals who would no doubt fight for
>>Jack Kervorkian's right to kill, would have any qualms about seeing
>>this man die, who has violated the civil liberties of the innocent
>>in the most extreme way. 

Engle:
>     Yes, some liberals certainly feel that way. I agree that their position 
> is internally inconsistant, but once again I'm not prepared to get too 
> deep into that one for fear of opening other cans of worms.

Barnes:
>>Though I may not agree with Rush's strict
>>"pro-life" position on abortion, he has a point about the effect
>>of the cheapening of human life which is brought about by rampant
>>abortion, and even euthanasia, in a society where the unjust taking
>>of life goes unpunished in many cases.

Engle:
>     Honestly I don't think that abortion (which definitely cheapens fetal 
> life) is the primary contributor to this modern craze for grotesque murders. 
> For that I would say that we have Hollywood, the film industry, and our old 
> buddies Stallone and Schwartzeneger(sp?) to thank. When was the last time 
> you saw graphic visual images of dozens of people getting buttered across 
> the landscape?

Barnes:
>>> In principle, however, images of violence (except perhaps of
sexual violence) have not been demonstrated to have a debasing
effect on the behavior of "normal" people. At least not to the
extent that they could be said to_cause_an increase in
societal violence and disrespect for human life. The above was,
I thought, a strange argument for an intelligent liberal like
yourself to be making, Mr. Engle. (But so's the one I just made
for a stereotypical conservative. I'm just not aware that the
assertion that life imitates art in this regard has been
convincingly demonstrated.) Granted, drama has gotten more
violent during recent decades.

Barnes:
>>Does execution deter?

Engle:
>     It certainly cuts down on those repeat-offender statistics.

Barnes:
>>If we were to execute any criminal who murdered while committing
>>another felony, we could have our answer. If there were fewer
>>murders associated with the commission of felonies, the effect
>>of such a law could readily be demonstrated. The necessity
>>of convicting the accused twice, first of the felony, and then the
>>capital murder charge, should add an extra measure of protection
>>against executing the innocent. It would be a good experiment to
>>try, and might ease jail overcrowding :-}.
>> 
>>How we should deal with the juveniles in this particular case
>>[Bob Greene's column] is a far more difficult question.
>>
>>Might we simply delay executing them until they are adults,
>>mercifully granting them at least a fraction of their lives?
>>Or, can such children be "rehabilitated"? Are child criminals
>>any more capable of "rehabilitation" than adults?
>>
>>Accepting for the sake of argument that these children became
>>"soulless" thanks to their parents, or their environment, what
>>can be done to help other children who are similarly endangered?
>>
>>For the sake of the victims now, and in the future, our national
>>"soul" must be found, and healed. And fast. 

Engle:
>     Perhaps so. To get back to my dispassionate analytical mode, I would 
> note that violent, "soulless" cultures have a tendency to be fairly 
> successful empire builders. As long as the inherent tendency towards 
> violence doesn't impair population growth our prospects for continuing 
> as a nation are fairly good. If you would like to make the argument that 
> the current level of violence is excessive then I would agree, but at 
> least from a historical perspective I would say that the level of violence 
> we're seeing doesn't necessarily pose an immediate threat to our survival 
> as a nation. It would certainly be much more pleasant to have nice neighbors 
> whose kids we're pretty sure aren't going to murder us, but at this point 
> I think that the murder rate is still less than the birth rate.

Barnes:
>>> A remarkably cynical outlook :-}. We're not seeing levels of violence
currently that could be compared to the War Between The States, to be
sure, but to the citizens directly in the line of fire, that point
makes little difference. Every American should have a reasonable
expectation that their governments on whatever level, will be able
to protect their civil rights, and that is clearly not happening
when the courts fail to provide justice to both the criminal and to
the victims. What has become of the constitutional right to a
speedy trial? What has become of the constitutional right to
due process when so many cases are plea-bargained? What about the
expectation that one can be secure in life, liberty, and property?
How about the scandalous fact that the leading cause of death of
young black men is other young black men? The anarchy that was
visited on Los Angeles last year is enough of a warning sign, I
should think. The civil and criminal courts are both overloaded.
Our national contempt of government is in no small part due to the
apparent inability of the responsible authorities to protect even
the basic rights, while at the same time taxing our wealth away to
fund an unhealthy dependence on government subsidies by all sectors
of our society. We're not getting the government we've already
paid for, to paraphrase Mr. Perot. He, like the rest of us, should
know about government subsidies.

-- 
*.x,*dna**************************************************************
*(==) Ken Barnes, LifeSci Bldg.                                      *
* \'  KEBARNES@memstvx1.memst.edu                                    *
*(-)**Memphis,TN********75320,711@compuserve.com**********************
"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged
to stick to possibilities, Truth isn't."--Mark Twain
Newsgroups: alt.fan.rush-limbaugh