X-Envelope-to: POLITICS@OHSTVMA.ACS.OHIO-STATE.EDU
X-VMS-To: IN%"POLITICS@OHSTVMA.ACS.OHIO-STATE.EDU"
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Date:         Tue, 12 Jan 1993 14:40:38 -0400
From:         The Integral Differential <DEMON@DESIRE.WRIGHT.EDU>
Subject:      Re: AA
Comments: To: POLITICS@OHSTVMA.ACS.OHIO-STATE.EDU

>>        What                    Enforced via
>>        ===================     ==================
>>        Slavery                 Government
>>        Separate but equal      Government
>>        Sub-optimal CR laws     Government
>>
>>        Conclusion: quit relying on government.  Don't cede power to the
>>government on this issue in the first place.
>
>????
>
>The first two are bad EFFECTS. The last one is a policy, not an
>effect.

        Bad "effects"?  Effects of *what*?  It's government deciding it has the
power to decide who can be a "citizen" and who can't, based on color.

>How about this set:
>     Government attempts to keep blacks enslaved........partial success
>     Government attempts to segregate.................. great success
>     Government attempts to end discrimination..........jury still out
>
>Shall we infer, on the basis of the historical record, that the
>government is likely to be much more effective at achieving
>the race-related goals it chooses than the market is?

        No.  It failed by keeping slavery around for a few centuries (note
we're talking about government in general, and not just the good 'ol USA).

>>        How about this:
>>
>>        "No organization, public, private or governmental has the power to set
>>terms of or limits upon contractual agreements between consenting adults."
>
>Tried it. Didn't work.

        When?

...
>>  "Executive order 11246, as amended, prohibits job discrimination on the
>>basis of race, color, religion, sex or national origin, and requires
>>affirmative action to ensure equality of opportunity in all aspects of
>>employment."
>>
>>   Note the "...requires affirmative action...".  It already said that you
>>can't discriminate, now it goes on to *require* AA.  The implication is clear.
>>AA must be used to give preferential treatment *after hiring* such as when
>>handing out promotions.
>
>Wrong.

        Not so fast...
>
>What it shows is that Brett STILL does not understand what Affirmative
>Action is. AA is consistent with what the Executive Order bans.

        I konw very well what AA both is supposed to be and what it is in
reality.

>>        Now, how many is enough?
>
>How many WHAT is enough?
>After Peter's long, thorough explanation, Brett STILL insists on
>pretending that Affirmative Action is identical to quota. There
>isn't much point in explaining it again, I suppose.

        There is no equivication, so no, there's isn't any point in pursuing
that strawman.

>>        But wait, there's more:
>>
>>        "Section 503 of the Rehabilitiation Act of 1973, as amended, prohibits
>>job discrimination because of handicap and requires afffirmative action to
>>employ and advance in employment qualified individuals with handicaps who,
 with
>>reasonable accommodation, can perform the essential function of a job."
>>
>>        Even more explicit this time: "...to employ and advance..."
>>
>>        Same wording for Vietnam vets.
>>
>>        So we're left with the "quota" issue.  How much is enough?  And, upon
>>deciding "how much", does it become a limit instead of a baseline?
>
>Incredible!

        Amazing!

>Like Bush, Brett reads "quota" into a context in which it isn't really
>there.

        No, it is there.  We are told that AA must be used to employ and
advance.  The only question we are left with is how much is enough.
Determining how much does indeed leave you with a quota, whether express or
implied.

>Readers might speculate on whether they (Bush and Brett)
>really don't even understand the difference, or whether they do
>but prefer to pretend that the two are identical.
>Jamie

        Or whether certain people don't want to acknowledge that AA in its
current form is a failure.

Brett'
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU