From: sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog)
Subject: Re: Albanians and Pseudo-Macedonia
Organization: Enea Data AB
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1992 23:21:34 GMT

Panos Tamamidis  (ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu) writes:
>I said:
>>Actually, I didn't exactly say that there was no objections, I only
>>questioned the claim that there was, as I've read nothing of the
>>kind except in Usenet articles from Greek posters, who didn't
>>provide any references.
>
>You said that this was "Greek propaganda."

Well, as long it was unconfirmed it could only be regarded as
Greek propaganda.

>>And? The purported Albanian objection to the Macedonian name remains
>>challenged.
>
> Well, perhaps I was not clear.  They clearly said the following:
> "We object to the recognition of the Republic of Macedonia."
> This should be very clear now.
>
> And you should realize the following: the Albanians also have strong
> objections to the recognition of this state even if it would change
> its name.

Yes, I know this. And the claim that the Albanians object to the
name "Macedonia" per se, has just been proven to be nothing but
Greek propaganda. The Albanians in Macedonia were largely against
Macedonia secession from Yugoslavia. (*Why* is something I haven't
really understood. True they get separated from their brethren in
Kosovo, but the protection from Serbian atrocities is also better
in an independent Macedonia, at least as long as Macedonia is not
attacked. As there are pitifully no Albanians on the net, this is a
question which probably will remain unanswered.)

So: there is nothing yet presented that there would be a general
opposition against the name "Macedonia" in Macedonia, among Albanians
or any other group. There is opposition against independence as
such, but that is another issue.

> Mr. Nevzat Halili clearly said that he does not believe that
> the Albanians are the 40% of the population, as the state claims.  He
> thinks they are more than 40%, (he said that they could even be more than
> 50%), and that in a few years they are definetly going to be the majority.
> Although they are supposed to be 40%, they are actually not allowed to
> contribute to any matter (e.g. military).  He concluded that their rights
> are not fully recognized in this state.

I hope you understand that these figures are Albanian propaganda
and there is no factual support for them. The only supported figure
we have at hand is 21%, from the 1991 census. Now this data is a bit
unreliable since the Albanians boycotted the census, and if anyone
has the 1981 census available I would be interested. Don't you think
it's interesting that the Albanians boycotted the census? Maybe they
didn't want their true number to be revealed?

If you want to appear as a serious debatteur you shouldn't use this
number of 40% as an undisputed fact, but an unconfirmed claim.

>Note that one of the three conditions for the recognition of this state by
>the EC is the full respect of the rights of the Albanian minority (if the
>40% could even be a minority ...).

You know very well Panos, that Macedonia passed the test on all these 
three conditions.

>>There is one very good evidence: they say that they are not Bulgarians.
>
> Which again supports my claims that these people are "brainwashed."

Panos, you are not Greek. Just because you say are Greek doesn't
prove anything. I know you cannot be Greek. Because how could a
descender of such great men as Perikles, Sokrates, and Aristoteles
write so much crap as you do? You are not Greek, and I know it. If
you believe you are Greek, it is only because you are brainwashed.

Seriously, I will never accept patronizing arguments over con-
senting adults. If we cannot allow other people to freely choose
their ethnical affiliation, how can we then with clean hearts
grant ourselves the same rights? If we don't allow them to express
their will, how can we claim any "freedom of speech"? If the best
we can say "they are brain-washed", we only prove that we ourselves
are brain-washed and lost our possibility to independent thinking.

> When there are numerous historical facts that there is no Macedonian
> nation, and that these people are Bulgarians,

No, there are numerous historical facts that there not so long ago
there was no Macedonian nation. But times changes, and today there
is one. 2.000 years ago there was no French nation. 500 years ago
there was no USAmerican nation. 200 years ago one could hard talk
of an Azeri nation. But today there are. What makes you think that 
the development of nations suddenly froze?

> You should have the courage to admit that this Macedonian issue is a result
> of the communist Tito, who used the name after WWII, with only one
> objective: to annex northern part of Greece, which rightfully bears the
> name Macedonia for 4,000 years.

Maybe. It is not relevant today, anyway.
-- 
Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - sommar@enea.se
There are many sorts of Macedonians: Greek, Bulgarian, Roumanian, Macedonian...

Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek