From: bbehlen@soda.berkeley.edu (Vitamin B (Brian Behlendorf))
Newsgroups: alt.rave
Subject: Re: CDs Are No Subsitute For Vinyl For DJs
Date: 30 Aug 1992 21:46:49 GMT
Organization: U.C. Berkeley, CS Undergraduate Association
NNTP-Posting-Host: soda.berkeley.edu

In article <78678@ut-emx.uucp> alexpace@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Alex L. Pace) writes:
>I find it quite amusing that there are so many totally clueless people who
>suppose that professional quality mixes can be produced with CDs alone.  As
>far as DJs are concerned, there is absoluely no subsitute for a pair of
>1200s and a couple of crates of vinyl.  Period.  

I find it quite amazing that there are people who are so set in their ways
that they don't realize that the digital format opens up new ways of doing
things, new "tricks" that are only beginning to be utilized.  CD's and a good
mixing deck are _different_, yes, than a pair of 1200's and a crate of vinyl,
and there _are_ things that DJ's can do with vinyl that will never be able
to be done with 1's and 0's. (at least nowhere as easily).  But the converse
is true as well.

>Being a DJ and having a lot of friends in this business, I am quite certain
>that even the best pitch control CD players can only supplement a DJs
>performance.  

An artist is only as good as his paintbrush?  C'mon....

>Just tonight I was talking to one of my DJ friends and it
>turns out that his manager just bought him a Denon 2000, he spent the
>afternoon playing with it and has already decided it was a worthless
>investment.  The reason?  While beatmixing is the most fundamental of DJ
>skills, all experienced professional DJs do much more than merely match the
>beats.  There are certain things such as the unique sound created when the
>auto-stop button is pushed, the sound the record winding down when power is
>switched off, the tricks that can be done with two records that just cant
>be duplicated with the CD player.  

Well, not yet that is.  But you can do things with a CD players that you can't
do with vinyl - like making the CD player a virtual sampler, looping over a
length of music of _any_ size.  Sound worthless?  Talk to Dr. Patterson.  
I know this is a wanted feature, because so many mixers have samplers built
in, but they only hold 10 seconds (some more) of sound.  Imagine being able
to take one of those Simon Harris (or another) beat CD's, and while that's
looping laying Les Voix Bulgares on top, and on the turntable mix in some
melodies... and you can still do your mixer console tricks like transforming, 
adding echo, etc.

>I've used one of the CD gadgets on occasion and been in many a booth where
>they were in use in clubs in various cities and I've only heard ONE guy
>that could really do some interesting things with a Numark dual CD player
>but even he preferred to use vinyl.

Maybe if you stopped thinking of them as gadgets and started to work out 
original things you can do with it, you'd come up with some really interesting
effects.  Right now most DJ's prefer vinyl because that's
what they've been working with for such a long time, most of their stuff is
on vinyl, etc., and the switchover to CD's just isn't worth it for them
in the short term.  A complete switchover would be expensive, yes, and the
sense of timing and knowing your way around a dual-CD player is 
different that a pair of 1200's, so it would take as much time to re-learn
how to use the technology (remember how long it was before you could 
actually mix beats with a pair of 1200's?  We aren't "born" with it).  But
I think many DJ's could do quite well by having both turntables and the 
CD players, and until they've collected a large amount of digital material,
use the CD players as sound-effects or melody samplers.

>For all of you consumers out there that want to listen to your favorite
>music at home or in the car, buy CDs.  DJs dont have (or want) that option.

There is something to be said for the sheer _ruggedness_ of vinyl - you can
scratch the vinyl to hell and with some noise gates and a good amp it can 
still come out sounding somewhat clean; 1200's are built like tanks, while
CD players still are (and probably always will be) sensetive to water, sand,
dirt, etc; and there is a certain romanticism to a DJ having his hands on the
slab of wax, carefully manipulating it, tweaking the mixer and the rotation
of the records just so... but what CD DJ's lack in hypnoticism and mysticism
can easily be made up with the sheer quality and precision of their work.
Who knows?  Maybe the technogeek craning over a massive array of knobs and
sliders and liquid-crystal displays and shiny metal discs will become a new 
romantic figure.  



>Alex Pace
>alexpace@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu

Brian

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