HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: desj@ccr-p.ida.org (David desJardins)
Newsgroups: rec.games.pbm
Subject: Re: Galaxy:Planet Reports
Date: 29 Aug 92 21:12:56 GMT
Organization: IDA Center for Communications Research, Princeton

Howard J. Bampton <bampton@cs.utk.edu> writes:
>> An important point is that the numbers you are talking about for the
>> planets section can all be computed from the information which is
>> already on that line.

> All the information for the groups that you might want is computable
> too.... 

My point is that you can't compute the speed of a group from the
information in the groups section.  You have to look at a completely
different part of the turn, where the types are listed.  (In fact, it is
almost as far away as you can get.)  On the other hand, the planets
section is already self-contained.  Thus there is less reason to add
numbers which are just computed from numbers already there.

> Consider: you have 100+ groups (5 chars to print), a group with 100+ ships 
> (5 chars), a long ship name (17 chars), have ships with techs != 1 (6
> chars / tech; total 24); have ships carring colonists (10 chars), have
> some freighters which can carry 10+ units of cargo (7 chars), heading
> for a long named planet (17 chars), and have a group in transit (7
> chars). Lets see: 5+5+17+24+10+7+17+7= 93 characters or so for the
> groups section (including 2 spaces/field separation). 

The cargo type is only three characters (COL, CAP, or MAT), not the
whole word COLONISTS.  And it's clearly a good idea to have only one
instead of two spaces between fields.  You also don't need space after
the last column.  That reduces the maximum length to 76.

In fact, you could replace the field for "Distance" with "Turns to
Arrival."  This would save rather than add space.  After all, what
difference does the distance make, except to determine how long it will
take to arrive?  Adding "Speed" admittedly takes up a little bit of
space, but it is so important that it seems worthwhile.  (It's
practically impossible to plan any turn without knowing the speeds of
your groups.)

Replacing "Distance" with "Turns to Arrival" saves 4 characters.  Adding
"Speed" adds 6 characters.  Bingo, 78 maximum.

Adding statistics like "Speed," "Weapons Strength," and "Shield
Strength" to the "Ship Types" section doesn't make any sense at all to
me.  Since those statistics are all affected by tech, the player is
going to have to compute the true numbers anyway.

                                        David desJardins
Newsgroups: rec.games.pbm
From: nick@sunburn.uwaterloo.ca (Nick Fitzpatrick)
Subject: Re: Diplomacy Games
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 13:50:52 GMT

In article <1992Sep1.233243.5152@csd.uch.gr> kermits@pasifae.cc.uch.gr (Aggelos Keromyths) writes:
>Try mail judge@u.washington.edu.
>Send help in the body,then wait for 10 minutes or less....
>This is a diplomacy server with about 30+ games running at every
>moment,so you should find one easily.Maps/Rules available there (read
> the help).

Actually there is over 100 games running!

Nick

Newsgroups: rec.games.pbm
From: finn@convex.com (Tom Finn)
Subject: Re: Galaxy:Planet Reports
Organization: CONVEX Computer Corporation, Richardson, Tx., USA
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1992 20:13:16 GMT
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.


I'd like to see the calculated numbers for speed, attack strength and shield
value (at the 50% point) listed in the groups section rather than the tech
levels.  I only use tech levels to calculate those numbers, anyway.  I can't
remember a single time when a raw tech level rating was useful without
looking at the ship design.

Tom
Newsgroups: rec.games.pbm
From: dani@netcom.com (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Re: Forming Co. ???????
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 92 07:35:07 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 

gl8f@fermi.clas.Virginia.EDU (Greg Lindahl):
>However, $100k is probably a bit of overkill, although probably a good
>number to scare people with. An MBA friend of mine did a business plan
>for a class. Assuming that he did the programming himself, a $25,000
>initial investment and a $6/turn charge ($3.18 of which is labor,
>materials, and postage), he can break even at 100 turns per week.
>Making a reasonable income would require 300 turns/week...

The main thing that seems to be missing here is an appreciation of how
long it can take for that reasonable income to start coming in.  First
there's the programming, which takes much longer than people would believe.
A reasonable rule of thumb for producing maintainable code commercially
is 2500 lines of code per man-year.  The most popular ways for non-
professionals (and too many professionals) to speed that process up
(skimping on design and testing) tend to result in far *more* programming
down the road.  Then there's the play-test, which can be quite lengthy
if it's going to be an honest attempt to improve the game and shake out
the bugs.  Once that's done, it's time to get a revised rulebook printed,
buy ads, and start building up a customer base.

Most people who start pbm companies can't or won't face a couple of years
of startup costs until money starts coming in, so they opt to first
market the game and then iron out the bugs.  Which brings us back to my
original observation that most pbm companies fail.

Which, in turn, brings me back to my original contention, that the
fact that pbm games seem to offer so little for what they charge is
a reflection of the economics of the business.

-----
Dani Zweig
dani@netcom.com

   The inability of snakes to count is actually a refusal, on their part,
    to appreciate the Cardinal Number system. -- "Actual Facts"



Newsgroups: rec.games.pbm
From: M22367@mwvm.mitre.org
Subject: Re: Galaxy:Planet Reports
Organization: The MITRE Corporation, McLean VA 22102
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 15:04:30 GMT

In article <l9r111INNn1e@utkcs2.cs.utk.edu>
bampton@cs.utk.edu (Howard J. Bampton) writes:
 
>usable capital (after colonists, no mat stockpile),
>usable capital (after colonists, assuming that there is a material stockpile)
 
Given these two numbers, the ship mass produceable in one turn is simply =1/10
of the usable capital. I don't think adding the 'ship mass produceable' would
add much useful information.
 
Furthermore, Russel's v3 just eliminated the cost of producing colonists so
numbers one and two would only reflect with/without Capital stockpile.
 
I agree adding ship (group) speed would be nice.  The numbers must be available
since they appear on "Incoming Groups" reports.
 
Exactly which "Shield Strength" number would you want reported? Minimum gun
strength required to penetrate?  Min Gun with 50% chance of penetration? Or max
gun shielded against (ie - 99% chance of a hit)? I vote for the 50% number.
 
- Mike
Newsgroups: rec.games.pbm
From: gl8f@fermi.clas.Virginia.EDU (Greg Lindahl)
Subject: time to think about PBEM articles
Organization: Department of Astronomy, University of Virginia
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 02:17:42 GMT

I'm going to be writing an article on Galaxy with advice to novices,
since none of the other zillions of players care to write one ;-)

If someone would like to do the same thing for Celestial Empire, I'd
love to see it. Another suggested topic was "keeping game actions and
real-life actions separate".

[ "PBEM" is a free fanzine for free PBEM games. If you want back issues,
  you can ftp them from ftp.erg.sri.com, directory /pub/pbm/PBEM-Fanzine. ]
Newsgroups: rec.games.pbm
From: gl8f@fermi.clas.Virginia.EDU (Greg Lindahl)
Subject: Re: Forming Co. ???????
Organization: Department of Astronomy, University of Virginia
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 04:02:16 GMT

In article <+9an-!l.dani@netcom.com> dani@netcom.com (Dani Zweig) writes:

>Two aspects.  First, note that most PBMs go out of business, and most of
>the rest aren't pulling in big bucks.

This is true, and your suggestions (minimizing the moderation cost,
making inter-player diplomacy very important) are excellent ones.
Monster Island is probably the best example of that kind of game.

However, $100k is probably a bit of overkill, although probably a good
number to scare people with. An MBA friend of mine did a business plan
for a class. Assuming that he did the programming himself, a $25,000
initial investment and a $6/turn charge ($3.18 of which is labor,
materials, and postage), he can break even at 100 turns per week.
Making a reasonable income would require 300 turns/week. For games of
this type (say a version of BSE which was still more computerized than
BSE is these days), it's a pretty risky venture. BSE peaked at
something like 1500 turns/week but that was after many years and it's
probably much more expensive to run than my friend's plan. Monster
Island probably has a pretty slim profit margin despite the very
simple turn input, although it's much better from a business viewpoint
than BSE.

Disclaimer: I'm probably full of shit. My friend does plan on
launching a gaming company, though.
Newsgroups: rec.games.pbm
From: epass@nyx.cs.du.edu (Eric Pass)
Subject: PBeM Squad Leader wanted
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix @ U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 92 04:11:06 GMT


Is anyone out there interested in playing Avalon Hill's (AH) Squad Leader
by Email?
 
I'm just learning this game (4th Ed. rules) and would like to play
with someone who also has the game at home and is about the same calibre.
I am not a novice at all wargames, just this one.
 
Ideally, we could play the scenarios (1-12) following the Programmed
Instruction method proposed by AH progressing on to scenarios of our own
making.
 
You'd need a copy of Squad Leader to set up at your place and then
we'll trade moves.  I envision lots of time between moves, if necessary,
for rules discussion and interpretation.
 
Interested?  Then get ready as "The Guards Counterattack"
 
Contact me at epass@nyx.cs.du.edu
 
Regards,
  Eric.
From: levitin@nodename.dec.com (Samuel M. Levitin)
Newsgroups: rec.games.pbm
Subject: Legends: Please comment on status trees and victory conditions
Date: 27 Aug 92 23:24:58 GMT
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation


As a new Legends player (Realm #7), I solicit your opinions
on what status is a good one to strive for. Some feel that
Vampire statue is most effective, but I have misgivings about
whether there are any hidden side effects.

Would anyone like to comment?

Also, how about victory conditions? Do different factions have
different victory conditions? What if you join the Overlord's
faction? Your victory condition therefore can't be to dispatch
the Overlord.


Samuel M. Levitin	Digital Equipment Corporation	Hudson, MA 01749
Semiconductor Engineering Group/CAD	Levitin@cadsys.enet.dec.com
Newsgroups: rec.games.pbm
From: sergray@nmt.edu (Arthur Cressy III)
Subject: Thank You
Keywords: Diplomacy
Organization: New Mexico Tech
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 17:11:11 GMT

Thanks to everyone who sent me information on Diplomacy.
I have entered a game, and am sure to have fun.

Thanks again
-Sergray



Newsgroups: rec.games.pbm
From: rwallace@unix1.tcd.ie (russell wallace)
Subject: Galaxy Game 1 Winner
Organization: Trinity College, Dublin
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1992 19:48:25 GMT


Galaxy Game 1 has been won by the Lummox, played by Andrew Conway
(arc@mundoe.maths.mu.oz.au). The runner-up is the Blarad Ursoids, played by
apalmer@uhuru.uchicago.edu, who fought brilliantly against vastly superior
Lummox forces before finally being destroyed. The final player status report is
as follows:

		Galaxy Game 1 Turn 66 Report for Lummox

		Status of Players

N		     D	   W	  S	C	 P	   I	#  R
Lummox		 18.14	6.94  20.43  1.00  54331.5  39445.68  260
Keskiolut	  4.49	3.13   1.05  1.00      0.0	0.00	0  War
Fungi_from_Yugg	  1.15	2.20   2.13  1.04      0.0	0.00	0  War
Blarad_Ursoids	  3.41	2.74   1.98  1.00      0.0	0.00	0  War
Commonwealth	  7.71	3.36   5.68  1.00      0.0	0.00	0  War
Aquas		  4.89	2.02   3.19  1.00      0.0	0.00	0  War
Zorph		 10.87	2.94   8.93  1.00      0.0	0.00	0  War
--
"To summarize the summary of the summary: people are a problem"
Russell Wallace, Trinity College, Dublin
rwallace@unix1.tcd.ie
Newsgroups: rec.games.pbm
From: dani@netcom.com (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Re: Forming Co. ???????
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 92 00:19:38 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 

<34RIPSE@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU>:
>Do you regular players think that you get your moneys worth?
>I won't degrade anyones effort but I expected MUCH more.  What we saw was
>enough to get us discussing our own public PBM co.  What are your thoughts?
>What might be the aspects that we are overlooking?

Two aspects.  First, note that most PBMs go out of business, and most of
the rest aren't pulling in big bucks.  This should suggest that the
expenses (moderator time, postage, printing, computer programming and
resources, etc) are much higher than you'd think.  So the challenge
often becomes one of producing a game that's fun while minimizing
the GM's expenses.  Or, to put it differently, of producing interesting
and enthralling output from simple and minimal inputs.

Second, the way many games manage this is by emphasizing the diplomacy
dimension, so that much, if not most, of the game is played between
the players without the company's mediation.  This can add considerably
to an otherwise simplistic game.  It can also add considerably to a
player's costs, but not directly.

It's easy to underestimate the cost of a PBM company.  I'd suggest that
you're unlikely to make a go of it as a spare-time activity, and that
if it's a full-time activity, you shouldn't expect a significant amount
of income for the first year or two.  To put it another way, a 
reasonable cash investment would be on the order of $100,000.  If
you think you could get by with $20,000 or so of start-up funds,
don't waste your time.

-----
Dani Zweig
dani@netcom.com

   The inability of snakes to count is actually a refusal, on their part,
    to appreciate the Cardinal Number system. -- "Actual Facts"
From: bampton@cs.utk.edu (Howard J. Bampton)
Newsgroups: rec.games.pbm
Subject: Re: Galaxy:Planet Reports
Date: 29 Aug 92 19:42:40 GMT
Organization: University of Tennessee, Knoxville - CS Department
NNTP-Posting-Host: duncan.cs.utk.edu

In article <1585@idacrd.UUCP> desj@ccr-p.ida.org (David desJardins) writes:
>
>There is quite a bit of room left in the groups section, and I would be
>happy to see this contain some other information.  One almost always
>needs the speed, and turns-to-arrival for groups in transit.  Then, if
>you want to list even more, would come weapons and shield strength.
[...]
>An important point is that the numbers you are talking about for the
>planets section can all be computed from the information which is
>already on that line.  The reason for adding information to the groups
>section is that otherwise you have to search around your report for the
>data you need.
>
All the information for the groups that you might want is computable
too.... 

In the middle & later parts of the game, you are bound to run across
someone (or be one yourself) who uses the full 15 (?) characters for
naming planets and ships.

Consider: you have 100+ groups (5 chars to print), a group with 100+ ships 
(5 chars), a long ship name (17 chars), have ships with techs != 1 (6
chars / tech; total 24); have ships carring colonists (10 chars), have
some freighters which can carry 10+ units of cargo (7 chars), heading
for a long named planet (17 chars), and have a group in transit (7
chars). Lets see: 5+5+17+24+10+7+17+7= 93 characters or so for the
groups section (including 2 spaces/field separation). 

With some careful editing you can trim this back to fit in 80 columns,
but if you add another field, no way. I do like the idea of adding the
information to the groups area, it just isn't going to FIT in 80
columns. With turns to arrival (3 chars), speed (7), and shield
strength (8) you are up to 100 characters, even for people like myself
who use 3-7 character names.....

-- 
Howard Bampton             Internet: bampton@cs.utk.edu
Even the walls of Jerchio fell.....
Newsgroups: rec.games.pbm
From: cinnibar@netcom.com (Jeff Wood)
Subject: Re: Galaxy:Planet Reports
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 92 20:23:01 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 

In article <1592@idacrd.UUCP> desj@ccr-p.ida.org (David desJardins) writes:
>Tom Finn <finn@convex.com> writes:
>>I'd like to see the calculated numbers for speed, attack strength and shield
>>value (at the 50% point) listed in the groups section rather than the tech
>>levels.  I only use tech levels to calculate those numbers, anyway.
>
>This is a very good point!  It must be more useful to list the weapons
>strength, shield strength, and cargo bay size than to list the
>corresponding techs.  The only question concerns speed.  It's hard to


Um, wouldn't it be easier by far to make these extended formats an option with
the O command?  This way, the people who have the tools to do extended 
computation not have to junk their post-processor because the format is now
entirely different while allowing others to pick and choose what format suits
them the best?

All in favor of O FORMAT_TWOROWS?
All in favor of O FORMAT_50%?
All in favor of O FORMAT_ALLSTATS?

Personally, I would hate to have to triple the size of the hypercard document
I'm using to read in the turns to detect/analyze/and read in different formats,
it was already a mess trying to get it to adjust for O UNDERSCORES. :)
But the results are worth it, love the labeled star map.

Jeff Wood
Cinnibar of the Tigra (Player_35 Galaxy Solar)
cinnibar@netcom.netcom.com
"The greatest defeats to large armies have been because they are large armies."
From: bampton@cs.utk.edu (Howard J. Bampton)
Newsgroups: rec.games.pbm
Subject: Re: Galaxy:Planet Reports
Date: 29 Aug 92 19:17:00 GMT
Organization: University of Tennessee, Knoxville - CS Department
NNTP-Posting-Host: duncan.cs.utk.edu

In article <168519BC2.M22367@mwvm.mitre.org> M22367@mwvm.mitre.org writes:
>In article <l9r111INNn1e@utkcs2.cs.utk.edu>
>bampton@cs.utk.edu (Howard J. Bampton) writes:
> 
>>usable capital (after colonists, no mat stockpile),
>>usable capital (after colonists, assuming that there is a material stockpile)
> 
>Given these two numbers, the ship mass produceable in one turn is simply =1/10
>of the usable capital. I don't think adding the 'ship mass produceable' would
>add much useful information.
> 
If a planet has a materials stockpile, then your statement is true.
Otherwise, the mass that a planet can produce is:
(CAP after colonist production) / (10 + (1/R))

where R is the resource value of the planet.

>Exactly which "Shield Strength" number would you want reported? Minimum gun
>strength required to penetrate?  Min Gun with 50% chance of penetration? Or max
>gun shielded against (ie - 99% chance of a hit)? I vote for the 50% number.

The ship's shield strength (sans modifier for shield tech):
     Shields
   ----------- * 30^1/3              (x^1/3 is the cube root of x)
   (mass)^1/3

I believe that this is the 50% number.

Since I am proposing putting these up in the "xxxx Ship types" part of
the report, rather than in the groups section, you basically have to
leave out the tech level part of the equation.

If they get added to the Groups section, then you end up with the same
problem as you have with the planet sections: the line goes over 80
characters. Since many people still use 80 character wide screens and
paper, I'd prefer to not make the status report lines any longer.
-- 
Howard Bampton             Internet: bampton@cs.utk.edu
Even the walls of Jerchio fell.....
From: desj@ccr-p.ida.org (David desJardins)
Newsgroups: rec.games.pbm
Subject: Re: Galaxy clarification needed
Date: 23 Aug 92 18:42:31 GMT
Organization: IDA Center for Communications Research, Princeton

Peter Turner <espt@es.flinders.edu.au> writes:
>I'm new to Galaxy.  Would someone clarify the sequence of events for me?
>I'd like to load some ships, move them, and unload them in the one turn
>without using a route.  Will this work?

No.  Break/send/load/unload orders are processed in the order you enter
them.  However, send orders just put your ships into hyperspace; they
don't actually arrive at their destination until later in the turn.
When they arrive, they will only unload immediately in the case of a
route.

                                        David desJardins
From: espt@es.flinders.edu.au (Peter Turner)
Newsgroups: rec.games.pbm
Subject: Galaxy clarification needed
Date: 23 Aug 92 06:57:19 GMT
Organization: None
Originator: espt@gaea.es.flinders.edu.au

I'm new to Galaxy.  Would someone clarify the sequence of events for me?
I'd like to load some ships, move them, and unload them in the one turn
without using a route.  Will this work?

Peter Turner        <espt@es.flinders.edu.au>
From: desj@ccr-p.ida.org (David desJardins)
Newsgroups: rec.games.pbm
Subject: Re: Galaxy:Planet Reports
Date: 28 Aug 92 16:19:03 GMT
Organization: IDA Center for Communications Research, Princeton

I really would not like to see Galaxy listings with more than one line
of information per planet or group.  The current format is very
convenient for all sorts of postprocessing, ranging from running custom
programs to feeding through perl scripts to just sorting and
reformatting.

There is quite a bit of room left in the groups section, and I would be
happy to see this contain some other information.  One almost always
needs the speed, and turns-to-arrival for groups in transit.  Then, if
you want to list even more, would come weapons and shield strength.

I don't really see the need to add information to the planets section,
especially since it just fits on one line as it is.  Industrial output
to produce colonists is minimal (and is going away anyway).  The cost of
making raw materials to support production is different in the cases of
research, capital production, and ship production.  Are you really going
to list several different numbers for these several cases?

Frankly, I use all of the information which is now present in the
planets section (except perhaps for X and Y, which could be moved
somewhere else), but I wouldn't use any of the additional information
you mention.

An important point is that the numbers you are talking about for the
planets section can all be computed from the information which is
already on that line.  The reason for adding information to the groups
section is that otherwise you have to search around your report for the
data you need.

                                        David desJardins
Newsgroups: rec.games.pbm
From: dave@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Dave Wenger)
Subject: Need Hex-Mapping program.
Organization: Northwestern University, Evanston Illinois.
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 06:41:35 GMT

I'm starting up in a Middle-Earth game pretty soon, and I'm looking for a
program which can make my maps.  Currently I do it by hand on
graphics/drawing programs and it is a major pain.  Does anyone know of a
program which would (preferably) read a database-type file and then plot
hexes, towns, rivers, roads, armies, etc?  Any combination thereof would be
very helpful.

Please just drop me a quick note on any info you have, and many thanks.



-- 
David Wenger		 | "Showerists believe in the healing, restorative 
dave@casbah.acns.nwu.edu |    and contemplative properties of the Shower
_The Way of the Shower_  |      and the rituals devoted to the Shower".
   "In the name of the Shower, and the Water, and the Holy Steam, Amen."
Xref: sparky rec.games.pbm:2416 rec.games.board:8226