HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Organization: Queen's University at Kingston
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 14:36:00 EST
From: andy <2893684@QUCDN.QueensU.CA>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Re: Church of England & women priests
 <1992Nov17.132416.510@erenj.com> <92323.0118282893684@QUCDN.QueensU.CA>
 <1992Nov18.135705.16883@erenj.com>

In article <1992Nov18.135705.16883@erenj.com>, bdboyle@erenj.com (Bryan D.
Boyle) says:
>
>In article <92323.0118282893684@QUCDN.QueensU.CA> andy
><2893684@QUCDN.QueensU.CA> writes:
>>>The absence of a good is not a compelling reason to institute an
>>>irregular practice.  In your mind, it may not be a Bad Thing, but,
>>>nothing has ever been advanced on either a theological or spiritual
>>>basis, underpinned by good scholarship, other than the rantings of the
>>>feminist and left end movements with their own agenda to advance.  You
>>>want proof for not having women priests?  Instead of the ad hominem
>>>attacks on the hierarchy, present some decent scholarship from rational
>>>thinkers on the opposition that would support the cause.
>>
>>So are you saying that since it has never been done, it can never be done.
>>Well then one should also eliminate the current method of choosing Popes,
>>Papal Infallibility (a rule which is only about a century old) and
>>all of Vatican Council II
>
>
>You still haven't answered the question, nor framed the discussion.  I
>am not saying that it is never possible-but _NO_ compelling theological
>or spiritual basis has _EVER_BEEN_ESTABLISHED_ that would support your
>argument.  A lot of heated rhetoric from the feminazis and PC doyen, but
                                              ^^^^^^^^^
Considering the millions who died in the Holocaust, I really resent
your flippant use of the word Nazi. Please be more considerate

>no rational scholarship.  Your other examples have no bearing on _this_
>discussion: the method for choosing popes was developed over centuries
>to curb abuses by the _secular_ society and government in attempting to
>influence the decision (funny, it is somehow linked-here we have secular
>humanists trying to impose their view on the Church...I change my
>view...thanks...), the statement on papal infallibility was a
>codification of tradition (and, contra to your obvious vitriolic view of
>ex cathedra statements, has only been used _TWICE_ since Vatican Council
>I codified it in the 1870's...) and a lot of the egregarious abuses that
>devolved _out_of_ Vatican Council II (but not the statements and beliefs
>of the council itself...there is a difference) should be eliminated.
>
>No, men are just deaf to the call of the Almighty to serve his people.
>
>Bryan D. Boyle    |Opinions mine, not Exxon's...
>Senior Engineer   |Sovereign Military and Hospitaler Order of St. John
>bdboyle@erenj.com |of Jerusalem, Knights of Malta
>
>
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Mon, 23 Nov 1992 10:28:54 -0500
From:         mayo@CS.UTK.EDU
Subject:      "One Bread, One Body", Nov. 28

                    Saturday, November 28, 1992

Revelation 22:1-7             Psalm 95             Luke 21:34-36

                        THE HAPPIEST ENDING

"The Lord God shall give them light, and they shall reign forever."
 --Revelation 22:5

Today is the last day of the Church year, and the Church calls us to read the
last chapter of the Bible, which gives us a picture of heaven.  We see "the
river of life-giving water, clear as crystal, which issued from the throne of
God and of the Lamb and flowed down the middle of the streets" (Rv 22:1-2).
We see "the trees of life which produce fruit twelve times a year, once each
month" (Rv 22:2).  Best of all we see Jesus "face to face" (Rv 22:4).  We
definitely have "a future full of hope" (Jer 29:11).

The Bible's last chapter will be fulfilled very soon because the Lord is
coming very soon (Rv 22:7).  To be prepared for His final coming and to
inherit the kingdom of heaven, we must:
  1) bear Jesus' name on our foreheads (Rv 22:4).  This means that we have
        totally, publicly, and permanently committed our lives to Jesus.
  2) "be on guard" lest our "spirits become bloated with indulgence and
        drunkenness and worldly cares" (Lk 21:34).
  3) "pray constantly for the strength to escape whatever is in prospect,
        and to stand secure before the Son of Man" (Lk 21:36).

On the last day of the Church year,  let's surrender our lives to Jesus,
repent of our sins, forgive those who have hurt us, and be ready to meet
Jesus and go to heaven at any moment.


Prayer:  Father, may I finish today all that You called me to do in 1992.

Promise: "Happy the man who heeds the prophetic message of this book!"
          Rv 22:7

Praise:  Each night Roberta examines her conscience and repents.
-----
From "One Bread, One Body", reproduced with permission.
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Apparently-To: catholic@american.edu
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Wed, 18 Nov 1992 20:11:06 PST
From:         "John R. Covert 18-Nov-1992 2312" <covert@COVERT.ENET.DEC.COM>
Subject: Women Priests: WCVB-TV in Boston appears totally confused.

Tonight's _entire_ Channel 5 report on the decision of the NCCB to withhold
approval of the pastoral letter on women:

        The Catholic Bishops have refused to approve a document
        which would have declared that women cannot be admitted
        to the priesthood.  The matter will now be openly debated.

Is the media confused about what is going on?

Or is it deliberately trying to confuse us?

/john
From: elendil@mintir.new-orleans.la.us (Edward J. Branley)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Re: Women Priests: WCVB-TV in Boston appears totally confused.
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 92 06:59:31 CST
Organization: Minas Tirith BBS (Public Access Usenet for New Orleans)

"John R. Covert 18-Nov-1992 2312" <covert@COVERT.ENET.DEC.COM> writes:

> Tonight's _entire_ Channel 5 report on the decision of the NCCB to withhold
> approval of the pastoral letter on women:
>
>         The Catholic Bishops have refused to approve a document
>         which would have declared that women cannot be admitted
>         to the priesthood.  The matter will now be openly debated.
>
> Is the media confused about what is going on?
>
> Or is it deliberately trying to confuse us?
>
> /john

The media is confused.  But how can they *not* be confused, when it takes
almost a decade for the bishops to produce nothing?



|Edward J. Branley         elendil@mintir.new-orleans.la.us|
|Seashell Software, Metairie, LA            +1-504-455-5087|
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Wed, 18 Nov 1992 16:55:39 EST
From:         "Brian Tillman, Smiths Industries, VAX Support,
              x8425" <tillman@SWDEV.SI.COM>
Subject:      RE: Separating our kids from public schools

Andrew Werling makes the point:

>If to you "basic values" means anti-gay, then if I ever adopt kids, you
>better stay the you-know-what away from them.

Well, Brent, I've chewed on your question for a while, as I said I would.  I
tend to agree with Andrew's point of view, but I don't single out the issue of
gaity (new phrase! ;-) ).

I don't think any group of two or more people can every agree on the concept of
"basic values."  Your "basic" values will *never, ever* coincide with mine
(although some may).  My point is, what you might consider "basic" and what I
consider "basic" may overlap to some degree, we'll never whittle the
non-overlapping areas enough to satify us both.  One of us would probably have
to abandon some value we feel essential.  The problem has no solution.
Therefore, I'll have to conclude that no, we don't have a duty to teach other
people's children "basic values" because we cannot even define them.  Oh, sure,
you can define them for you, and I for me, but yours and mine won't match in all
(or perhaps even most) regards.  That's why the Republican emphasis on "family
values" in the last election was so specious.  We can't even define what a
family is, let alone what values they should have.

-----------------------------+--------------------------------
 Brian Tillman               | Internet: tillman@swdev.si.com
 Smiths Industries, Inc.     |           tillman_brian@si.com
 4141 Eastern Ave., MS129    | Hey, I said this stuff myself.
 Grand Rapids, MI 49518-8727 | My company has no part in it.
-----------------------------+--------------------------------
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Organization: Argus Consulting, Tucson, AZ
X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.4 2/2/92)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Fri, 20 Nov 1992 18:53:17 -0700
From:         "Gordon C. Zaft" <zaft@CARITAS.COTDAZR.ORG>
Subject:      Holy See income

On Nov 19,  1:59pm, "Edward J. Branley" wrote:
} Subject: Re: Priest shortage...
}
} No, I don't have the stats any longer.  I had read an article about a year ago
} which mentioned that Peter's Pence donations from the US make up a very
} significant portion of that fund.  Also, given the large amounts of donations
} made to secular charities in this country, it's safe (IMHO) to apply that to
} the various Catholic charities.

        Ah.  Peter's Pence is not the Vatican's main source of income.
Indeed, until a few years ago it was still used for its original purpose--
the Pope's personal charities.  Sad to say with the current state of
the Vatican budget most of it now goes to patching the deficit.

}-- End of excerpt from "Edward J. Branley"



--
* Gordon Zaft     Argus Consulting  4500 E. Sunrise #N-6, Tucson, AZ 85718
* zaft@caritas.cotdazr.org | noao.edu!coyote!caritas!zaft
                 Semper fidelis Christi et Vicarii sui.
If you want to know how old a man is, ask his brother-in-law.
From: mfulsmb@uts.mcc.ac.uk (Martin Barry)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Re: polls and women priests
Date: 17 Nov 92 10:23:20 GMT
Organization: Manchester University, M13 9PL, UK.

In article <92Nov13.185106est.9084@rock.db.toronto.edu> jdd@db.toronto.edu (John DiMarco) writes:
>
>The church must conform to the will of God. The church cannot "change the
>rules" unless she knows that it is God's will to do so. Popular opinion
>has no bearing on this: if every person believed women should be ordained,
>and God didn't, the Church would be obliged to follow God's will.
>

The issue is whether the will of God is to be discerned in the faith of the
ordinary people who make up the Church. It seems to me (well, OK, it seemed
to John Henry Newman) that it is a gravely distorted view of the nature of
the Church to suppose that truth is given first to the Pope and Bishops, and
then handed on by them to the rest of the faithful. In fact it's the other
way round: the Pope and Bishops articulate that which is believed by the
larger Church, and are in danger of error if what they teach differs totally
from it. So if EVERY Christian except the Pope and a few hundred Bishops
believed something to be a manifestation of the will of God, the first thing
that should be subjected to scrutiny is whether the leaders of the Church
might need to think again.

To disagree with this, to consider that in fact almost the whole Church
might start believing something incompatible with divine truth, is, to my
mind, to disregard to a distressing extent the promise of our lord that he
would be with us until the end of time.

Infallibility is first of all in the Church; the infallibility of the Pope
and of the Bishops in council is merely a reflection of this more general
characteristic.

Martin Barry.
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: lang@cs.tulane.edu (Raymond Lang)
Subject: extent of infallibility (was: Re: Church of England & women priests)
Organization: Computer Science Dept., Tulane Univ., New Orleans, LA
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 13:32:18 GMT
Nntp-Posting-Host-[nntpd-22086]: clones

In article <1992Nov18.144335.5956@doug.cae.wisc.edu> kasab@luther.che.wisc.edu (Haig Kasab)  writes:
>Bryan, the tradition of Papal Infallibility may have a narrow
>application, but for Catholics and others who are obviously less
>sophisticated in the workings of the Church than you believe that almost
>anything that the Pope says is Infallible, be it a homily, letter, bulla,
>or what have you.  So, it is not incorrect to challenge the popular
>perception of Papal Infallibility.

Would you mind giving some evidence for this so-called "popular
perception" of infallibility?  I suspect that, in the U.S., Canada
and much of Western Europe, most Catholics do not consider almost
anything the Pope says to be infallible.  In any case, those who
do misunderstand what infallibility applies to.

Ray Lang
lang@cs.tulane.edu
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Fri, 20 Nov 1992 08:53:21 EST
From:         "Brian Tillman, Smiths Industries, VAX Support,
              x8425" <tillman@SWDEV.SI.COM>
Subject:      Re: "Feminazis" and the "abortion holocaust"

ted frank asks:

>Are you saying millions of Catholics "chose" to be
>insulted by Sinead O'Connor's actions?  And that her actions had no
>insulting value in and of themselves?

I'm saying that how you react to others _attempted_ insults is totally up to
you. You can choose to give that person satisfaction by being insulted or you
can ignore it as the childish attempt it is.  So, yes, the millions of Catholics
who were insulted chose to be so.

-----------------------------+--------------------------------
 Brian Tillman               | Internet: tillman@swdev.si.com
 Smiths Industries, Inc.     |           tillman_brian@si.com
 4141 Eastern Ave., MS129    | Hey, I said this stuff myself.
 Grand Rapids, MI 49518-8727 | My company has no part in it.
-----------------------------+--------------------------------
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Mon, 16 Nov 1992 19:27:59 EST
From:         "Brian Tillman, Smiths Industries, VAX Support,
              x8425" <tillman@SWDEV.SI.COM>
Subject:      RE: Separating our kids from public schools

I fully support the public school system and would feel that I had done my
children a disservice by not sending them their.  For one, *nothing* that
happens in the public schools can alter their relationship with God and their
value systems, if the parents (my wife and I) have done our jobs correctly.
Secondly, if they are not exposed to other points of view while they're living
at home and can ask us about what they means and how they might look at them,
they will be ill-equipped to live life in these United States later when their
parents aren't here to help them sort it out.

I can and do influence the way things are taught or presented in the public
school system.  A case in point: my older daughter, when in grade school, told
us that they had watched a movie in class one day that I knew was rated PG.  I
asked the teacher and principal what "PG" meant.  They said "parental guidance."
I asked when I had had the chance to guide my child in the watching and stated
that my child's teacher was not her parents.  They saw the point immediately and
PG movies were no longer a fare for viewing in my daughter's classroom.  Simple.

-----------------------------+--------------------------------
 Brian Tillman               | Internet: tillman@swdev.si.com
 Smiths Industries, Inc.     |           tillman_brian@si.com
 4141 Eastern Ave., MS129    | Hey, I said this stuff myself.
 Grand Rapids, MI 49518-8727 | My company has no part in it.
-----------------------------+--------------------------------
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Thu, 19 Nov 1992 17:52:20 -0500
From:         mayo@CS.UTK.EDU
Subject:      "One Bread, One Body", Nov. 23

                    Monday, November 23, 1992
                    Clement I, Pope and Martyr
                         Columban, Abbot
          Blessed Migual Agustin Pro, Priest and Martyr

Revelation 14:1-3           Psalm 24                    Luke 21:1-4

                        THE SIMPLE LIFE

"Jesus glanced up and saw the rich putting their offerings into the treasury,
 and also a poor widow putting in two copper coins." --Luke 21:1

A poor widow gave the Church "every penny she had to live on" (Lk 21:4).  The
Lord always provided "daily bread" (see Mt 6:11) for this poor widow.  She
never missed a meal but seldom had much more than the bare necessities of
life.  This widow didn't even have a TV.  (One Christmas a social service
agency offered her a used one, but she didn't want it.)  This widow was
usually ignored by her neighbors and even by her church members and relatives.
But occasionally a few people did notice the widow.  They were puzzled by her
looking so happy.

The widow finally died.  Her spirit was taken to heaven.  She saw Jesus face
to face (I Cor 13:12) and sat with Jesus on His throne at the right hand of
God the Father (Rv 3:21).  She loved to sing praises to the Trinity with all
the angels and saints.  She had been happy on earth but now her happiness
was inexpressible.  "Eye has not seen, ear has not heard, nor has it so much
as dawned on man what God has prepared for those who love Him" (I Cor 2:9).


Prayer:  Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, may I live for and with You forever.

Promise: "They are pure and follow the Lamb wherever He goes.  They have been
          ransomed as the first fruit of mankind for God and the Lamb."
          Rv 14:4

Praise:  Columban found victory over worldly temptations in prayer and
         seclusion.
-----
From "One Bread, One Body", reproduced with permission.
From: jocallag@bach.helios.nd.edu (john ocallaghan)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Re: Church of England & women priests
Date: 19 Nov 92 05:34:02 GMT
Organization: OUC, University of Notre Dame

In article <1992Nov18.144335.5956@doug.cae.wisc.edu> kasab@luther.che.wisc.edu (Haig Kasab)  writes:
>>In article <...> andy <2893684@QUCDN.QueensU.CA> writes:
>>>So are you saying that since it has never been done, it can never be done.
>>>Well then one should also eliminate the current method of choosing Popes,
>>>Papal Infallibility (a rule which is only about a century old) and
>>>all of Vatican Council II
>[stuff deleted]
>>the statement on papal infallibility was a
>>codification of tradition (and, contra to your obvious vitriolic view of
>>ex cathedra statements, has only been used _TWICE_ since Vatican Council
>>I codified it in the 1870's...) and a lot of the egregarious abuses that
>>devolved _out_of_ Vatican Council II (but not the statements and beliefs
>>of the council itself...there is a difference) should be eliminated.
>
>Bryan, the tradition of Papal Infallibility may have a narrow
>application, but for Catholics and others who are obviously less
>sophisticated in the workings of the Church than you believe that almost
>anything that the Pope says is Infallible, be it a homily, letter, bulla,
>or what have you.  So, it is not incorrect to challenge the popular
>perception of Papal Infallibility.
>

Haig, the original posting, as is clear above, was not challenging the
ignorance of the faithful or the popular perception of Papal Infallibility.
Though I praise your recognition that many Catholics and many others
do not know what the Catholic Church teaches.  Seems like the sensible
thing to do is not to deny what they perceive, but to learn what is taught.
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Mon, 23 Nov 1992 15:41:00 EST
Comments:     A VAX cluster with VMS V5.5, PMDF V4.0-22, JNET V3.5 & UCX V1.3A
From:         Liz Moreau <EMOREAU@UMASSD.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Priest shortage...

>Wait.  Africans you say?  Won't work, at least down here.  I'll be willing to
>bet that there are many parishes which would fold before accepting a black
>priest on a regular basis.

Then those churches should just fold up right now.  Evidentially they
are not learning what God teaches us about love.  I personally would
leave any church that would not accept an African pastor.

                                        Liz Moreau
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: kschudt@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Karl C Schudt)
Subject: Re: Priest shortage...
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 16:26:46 GMT

     It is true that we have a great shortage of priests at this time.
However, it seems that most of us sadly just bemoan the lack rather than
contemplate doing something about it. I have a good friend who is in the
Holy Cross noviciate now. I asked him once why he was becoming a priest
and he said in his slow texas drawl, "Well, someone's got to do it. Might as
well be me!"
     I guess my point is that perhaps some of the people who care strongly 
about the lack of vocations are perhaps called themselves. Its the old
"Dear Lord, let there be an increase in vocations (but not for me!)"
     I doubt that there is a lack of vocations, just a lack of commitment
and idealism which would help one to accept the call.

     Anyway, enough rambling. Do me a favor and remember my friend Craig
in your prayers, so that he may be a good priest, and that others may join him
in answering the call.

Karl Schudt
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Fri, 20 Nov 1992 15:07:33 -0600
From:         Steven Brandt <sbrandt@NCSA.UIUC.EDU>

This is called free Catholic mailing list?  What's available?

                         Steven R. Brandt
                         sbrandt@saturn.ncsa.uiuc.edu
                         office: (217)244-3008, 5349 Beckman
                         home: (217)344-5612 (answering machine on phone)
From: awerling@NMSU.EDU (WERLING)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: "ex"-homosexuals
Date: 16 Nov 92 21:24:31 GMT
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This is an older topic, but I'm doing my best to catch up and I had to put
in my two-cents on these "Courage" and "Exodus" groups.  I think it's a
sad state that homosexuals have gotten to the point of hating themselves
so much they force their urges deep into their inner vaccuum and condition
themselves into semi-happiness (all accounts I've heard or read of are of
men still in depression...they simply aren't attracted to men
anymore...and, no, I've never heard of a group for lesbians).

I don't know any of these people personally, but psychologists (etc) who
have spoken with these people have stated that in every instance, the
client still found men attractive...they just were no longer street
walkers, etc.

I must also point out that, in my minimal research of "Exodus," a national
group, they focus on the action of homosex, not the state of being of
homosexuality/gayness/etc.

Sure you can stop the action, but I don't believe that you can convert
your own inner core away from its inner nature/urges.

Andrew Werling on Planet Yip  awerling@dante.nmsu.edu  yip@acca.nmsu.edu
From: elendil@mintir.new-orleans.la.us (Edward J. Branley)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Re: Pastoral letter
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 92 13:41:52 CST
Organization: Minas Tirith BBS (Public Access Usenet for New Orleans)

Len Howard <tas@PEGASUS.COM> writes:

> Hi Ed,  That IS an interesting slant on things.  And I agree with you
> that the American Catholic Church is more likely to be kicked out than
> split away.  It is not really our nature to take precipitate action,
> but to be more willing to put up with a lot.  But that idea of the
> Pope being a Slav is most interesting.
>
> Shalom,                                Len Howard OSL
>                                        tas@pegasus.com

Yeah, it definitely turned my head when I heard it.  Explains a lot.  If one
follows the line of thinking out, we won't quit, and he's not interested, so
things will just trudge along...hmmm...



|Edward J. Branley         elendil@mintir.new-orleans.la.us|
|Seashell Software, Metairie, LA            +1-504-455-5087|