From: ednclark@kraken.itc.gu.edu.au (Jeffrey Clark)
Subject: Re: atheism and morals and dating
Organization: ITC, Griffith University, Brisbane, Australia
Date: 24 Nov 92 01:35:55 GMT

hau4@ellis.uchicago.edu (sven  hauptfeld) writes:

>In article <1992Nov10.011336.8574@iscsvax.uni.edu> mccall3080@iscsvax.uni.edu writes:
>>        My family still celebrates traditional religous holidays, but without
>>the religion.  Christmas and Easter are times to show love with the family and
>>to give and have hope.

>While I see Xmas as some kind of celebration of the continuity of Western
>Civilization (it's nothing but a mutation of Saturnal festivities anyway), I
>*do* have troubles with Easter, which is an exclusively Xian holiday, not
>very compatible with my notion of tolerance.

Actually Sven, the pagan ritual of Beltane Fires celebrated the end of
winter and coming of fertility in that time. Note that easter is held on the
full moon as was the pagan festival I understand. It is hypothesised that
christian churches attempted to decrease the participation in the Beltane
Fires (which normally involved lot's of sex and feasting and generally
having a good time) by making the date of Christ's death coincident with
that festival. Parishioners therefore had to choose between solemnly marking
the death of the Lord (lack of doing so probably held some punishment) or
celebrating the start of the fertile season in the usual way.

>>  We don't need a GOD for it to have a meaning.  We don't
>>see a problem with that.

>You are absolutely right, in general. But are you really free of Xianity in
>your celebrations? (I'm not saying it would be wrong. I am asking without
>claiming there is a 'right' answer.)

>>        We also are very moral people.  I don't drink, do drugs, sleep around,
>>or even swear beyond saying the word "shit" occasionally.  I have high morals. 

>I am not far from that description (although a little more "moderate";-) but
>I don't see what is moral about it. All four activities are immoral by Xian
>standards, but I see absolutely no justification for it (assuming that
>drinking is not followed by driving or violence, that drug use is controlled,
>that sex is safe and... well, I can't think of any restrictions necessary for
>swearing).

>>You tend to like people who have similar interests and lifestyles as you and
>>unfortunately most of those guys are religous, or so it seems.  I don't have a
>>problem with their religion.  They have made their choice and I have made mine. 
>>I can respect that, but they can't handle that I don't have Christ in my life.
>>        Why is that?  Why is it OK for me and not OK for them.  It is all a
>>matter of personal difference.

>That is exactly the point. The difference between you and them is not just that
>they are religious and you are not. That is the irrelevant part. The important
>difference is that they are bigotted and you are tolerant. This is not in any
>causal relation with religion (although a correlation probably exists).

>>        I guess I find it upsetting.  I would like to go out with someone who
>>would respect my choice.  I respect theirs.  I honestly don't see many atheists
>>like myself in Northeastern Iowa.

>I know this won't console you, but the same is truth for the entire U.S.


Australia's not too bad though, depending on where you go.


>>   The ones that I have met don't have any
>>morals.  So basically I feel like I am one in a million and no one can respect
>>my choice.

>Considering current trends, you'll remain in a tiny minority for a long time.

>>  I realize that I am only 22 and I'm at a university, but will I
>>ever find what I am looking for?

>Maybe. And maybe not. You'll certainly find friends who will respect your
>opinion, but their own opinion+morals+lifestyle, while possibly similar to
>yours, will certainly be different to some extent. Then you'll have to face
>the question: how far can YOU tolerate?

>>  This is not a personal ad,

>It nevertheless says enough positive things about you that I'd like to exchange
>e-mail messages.

>(Gee, how '90s this sounds! Terrible...)

>> but more like a
>>question:  are other atheists running into the same problem?

>Sure. We might be the only minority not unambiguously protected by law in this
>country. That's an even greater problem.

>	Sven

Jeff.


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