From: rswiftrw@cc.curtin.edu.au (Rod Swift)
Subject: Re: **** Australian citizens kidnapped by Malaysian Prince ****
Organization: -=[ Curtin University ]=-  Perth, Australia.
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1992 08:40:53 GMT

In article <1992Jul25.011502.8466@ntuix.ntu.ac.sg>, eoahmad@ntuix.ntu.ac.sg (Othman Ahmad) writes:

> : > They are already in Malaysia, safe and happy.

> : [fx: extra special sardonic and condescending speech]
> : And how would you know they are happy, or safe?  I doubt it.

> On what basis!

Because you are not the children, I doubt you would know how they'd feel.

> : Wrong.  Try again.  They are Australian citizens, and of dual nationality.
> : They were born in this nation which is the determinant on citizenship.  At

> You are absolutely wrong. Not in Malaysia, Singapore and U.K.

If I am absolutely wrong, then you have total brain failure.  The children
were born in Australia, and hence Australian citizenship laws apply.

Sorry, you lose!

> : birth, the parents can decide whether to change the citizenship of the
> : child under certain circumstances (e.g. when the child is born on holiday
> : in Iceland, maybe!  Usually when the citizenship is not the same as either
> : parent.)

> : > Australia must respect the sovereignty of the Malaysian government

> : While in Australia, no one has to respect the laws of the Malaysian Govt.
> : Believe it or not, we obey our own laws thank you very much!
> : [Shock, horror!]

[Crap about equal visitation deleted]

> 	Since they come willingly, there is no basis for kidnapping.

Since the children are minors, their custodial parent has control over
them.  Since the mother did not approve of the taking of the children,
the children have been kidnapped.

> You or the mother cannot put words in the children's mouth, especially
> when they aready 9 years old.

She can control their rights.

> It is a different case if they are much younger but we are talking
> about this particular case.

Wrong.  Minors are minors.

> Prove it. The other Malaysians are not as clever as I am to see through 
> your devious ways.

So I am devious?  On what grounds do you base that allegation.  Let me guess,
it would happen to be because I am non-Muslim?

> If he has broken any law, the Australian government must take court action.

And they are.

> Not being judged by obviously biased people of lesser mind.

Ohhh.  I am really hurt.  Maybe I'll run my credentials by you in a second.

> : Would it be improper for me to say that I can break your laws in your
> : country, because I am not a resident of your country?

> : Graphic Example:  I am on trial for drug trafficking in an ASEAN nation
> : (not Malaysia) which has a mandatory death sentence for convicted
> : criminals. 

> : I say, "Sorry, your laws don't apply to me"?

> You would be tried according to our laws

I did not even say they were your laws..!   Talk about sycophantic attitudes!

> and YOU SHOULD NEVER COMPLAIN.

Why not?  You're complaining about ours!

> Do not apply double standards again.

I was using the example to show YOUR double standard by saying the prince CAN
IGNORE AUSTRALIAN LAWS.  So FOAD.

> Your perception of fact is very strange especially when you do not even know
> a lot of cases which could be changed.

Oh, do I have a strange perception of fact?

> Is this the highest standard that you can bear?

Hmmm..

> Even I do not claim that what I say are facts unless I have read the
> documents and talk to the people concerned personally, which is rarely the
> case.

And I have read the documents, the laws, sought advice on a legal perspective,
talked to both the mother and her new family, and relatives of the father in
Malaysia.

Are you saying I am not informed?  Are you still going to say I don't know
the facts?

> : > If he had agreed, he would not have taken the children out of Australia,
> : > would he?

> : Agreements can be broken, as the prince did.

> THAT was the whole point. There may be basis for breaking the aggreements and
> it can be allowed by a court of law.

There is no BASIS for breaking Australian law.  If the prince wanted his
children, he could have asked for another custody determination.

> : > What proff have you got that they are indeed Australian citizens, when
> : > their father may not be.

> : Because they are Australian-born children.  The issue of the father's
> : citizenship does not enter the matter.  Where you are born determines
> : your citizenship.

> : > Does Australian immigration law provides automatic citizenship to
> : > children whose father is not a citizen?

> : Wrong.  You are confusing "nationality" with "citizenship".  Citizenship can
> : usually only be of one nation, and only of one nation at birth.  In this
> : case, the children are Australian citizens.

> Since you are wrong about citizenship laws in other countries, you statement
> cannot be trusted.

I was not referring to the "citizenship laws in other countries" but in Aust-
ralia, where they were born and which is the relevant citizenship laws.

Malaysia's citizenship laws do not apply.   Sorry!  Try again!

> 	I would prefer to get it from other people. You are obviously biased
> and not knowledgeable enough.

Why not me?  I am knowledgeable and not biased.

You obviously call me biased as you cannot accept that anyone else can have
a differing view on the topic.

I don't call you biased because you disagree with me.  Rather, I dispute your
"facts" and replace them with the "truth" and "reality".

> : Nationality is passed from parents.  The children most certainly have dual
> : nationality, but that is not relevant in this situation.

> : I know, as I have dual nationality (from my parents) and citizenship of
> : Australia.

[You didn't answer this one.  Why?  I am in the exact same situation as the
children, and I am ONLY an Australian citizen, as Australian citizenship laws
applied to me.]

> : As I said, it is the nation of birth, not the nationality of the parents.
> What you imply is not universal and not true all the time. Lessons from United
> Kingdom, Malaysia and Singapore.

I did not say it was universal.

In Australia (the nation in which the children were born), the children only
get one citizenship -- Australian.

Can you not accept that?  They are not Malaysians.  All laws that apply in this
case are Australian as all the events (the birth of the children, the divorce
of the parents, the custodial decision and the kidnapping) occured in Aust-
ralia.

Please shut up.  You are making an absolute fool of yourself in a multinational
newsgroup.

Rod
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