From: payner@netcom.com (Rich Payne)
Subject: Re: Living in a State of Siege
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 06:07:38 GMT

In article <168C692F9.SURGDM@mizzou1.missouri.edu> Diane writes:
>In article <1992Dec23.014026.23136@cbnewsk.cb.att.com>
>noraa@cbnewsk.cb.att.com (aaron.l.hoffmeyer) writes:
> 
>    <examples of male violence against men>
> 
>>Who raised these men?
> 
>Oh for godsakes; how long are we going to blame mommy? 

When we stop blaming everyone, which may be a long long time.

>                                                         When do we
>get to grow up and take responsibility for our selves? 

You can do it anytime, as can anyone. But it is PC to claim victimhood,
and profitable to claim damages and redress.

>                                                          I don't teach
>my son to be any more violent than my daughter. You can argue from
>a biological standpoint, from a social one- what ever pulls your
>chain, but please! let us not forget that everyone one of us has some
>measure of self-determination. 

Children do not. And if you argue from the biological standpoint, there
is no such thing as self-determination. Heck, if you argue from the
social "brainwashing" standpoint, most have no choice either. Unless
they recieve the -proper- brainwashing. 

>                                It is people- not society; not their
>mommies, who murder and rape and steal. Yes, it just so happens that
>a majority of these murderers and rapists and thieves are men. 

It's really strange how enviornmental factors are claimed to be -major-
limiting factors in womens lives, but it is unforgivable heresay to
consider enviornmental factors when men are involved. Hell, women have
been acquitted of first degree murder for enviornmental factors. I
guess these only apply to women for some reason.

>                                                               Aren't
>they 'big' enough to accept responsibility for their own actions? 

You may want to discuss this with Jen. :^) I may not be qualified.

>                                                              I'm
>sorry if I'm just not co-dependent enough to make (or accept) lame
>excuses like "mommy made me do it".
  
How about something more realistic like mommy was a major factor in
most mens lives. Since women are so nice, how then could these men
be violent? I recall the studies that show women are about as violent
as men in domestic situations, it seems that they learn as much voilence
by watching mommy as they do by watching daddy.

Women are not innocent, and they are not guilty, but there are clearly
-part- of the situation. Perhaps if women took responsibility for raising
their children as non-violent there would be less.
  
>>>If you're not part of the cure, you're part of the problem. [ ]
>>
>>Uh-huh.
> 
>Maybe you would prefer "if you're part of the problem, blame mommy"?

Naaa, safer and perfectly PC to blame daddy exclusively. How is it that
you decry taking responsibility in the same post in which you deny all
responsibilty?
  
>>Aaron L. Hoffmeyer
>>TR@CBNEA.ATT.COM
> 
>Diane


Rich

payner@netcom.com  (not blaming mommy, but asking what the fuck is going on)