HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: eclipse@world.std.com (Mark Urbin)
Subject: Re: Kenpo
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 20:39:40 GMT

In article <1gllleINNcts@fido.asd.sgi.com> gints@prophet.esd.sgi.com (Gints Klimanis) writes:
>In article <1992Dec15.134658.2907@gacvx2.gac.edu>,
>croberts@next-1.gac.edu (Christopher J Roberts) writes:
>|> A local gym recently began to offer classes on Kenpo.
>|> My question is "What exactly is it?  I was told it was
>|> a Korean style of karate but other than that I am ignorant.
>|> Any information would be greatly appreciated.  Feel free to
>|> email me or to post.
>Kenpo has split into at least 3 branches in its path from over from
>China to US via Hawaii, where William Chow taught.  
   Don't forget that Chow learned Kempo from James Miltose, who sent 15 years
(ages 4-19) learning it as the `family style' in Japan.  Miltose taught Kempo
in his birthplace (Hawaii) after WWII.  William Chow was one of his students.
Mr. Chow was also one of the very few (7? 9?) men Miltose promoted to 
Instructor level.
   Kempo (or kenpo, it's an accent thing.  How you pronouce depends on what
part of Japan you are from) is the Japanese translation of chau fa (sp!).
Roughly in English, it means `Fist Law'.  It's a generic term for a striking
based martial art.

>Ed Parker was a
>student of Chow.  Ed Parker style Kenpo karate fuels a lot of commercial
>kickboxing.  Sam Brown brought over Ken Ju Bo Ai kenpo, which split into
>Go Shin Jutsu Kenpo  This style is pokes, punches and rips with max
>groundfighting.  Quite brutal.  I have also heard that one instructor
>mutated Kenpo and renamed his style Kempo.


-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mark Urbin -- eclipse@world.std.com -- These opinions are mine.
It was a typical net.exercise -- a screaming mob pounding on a greasy spot 
on the pavement, where used to lie the carcass of a dead horse.
From: rhuynh@tartarus.uwa.edu.au (Richard Huynh)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Film : To kill the Shogun
Date: 20 Dec 92 18:05:54 GMT
Organization: The University of Western Australia
NNTP-Posting-Host: tartarus.uwa.edu.au
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5

Hi,
	Has anyone seen 'To kill the Shogun' ? The ending sequence had
some of the best fight sequences ever made on film ( in my opinion anyway
).


			Bye,
			Richard
From: diverson@phys.ksu.edu (David Iverson)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Stubborn Beginners (was Aikido Question)
Keywords: Misconceptions
Date: 15 Dec 92 17:11:00 GMT
Organization: Kansas State University
NNTP-Posting-Host: bose.phys.ksu.edu

One point I've been musing on since the start of this thread is the way we
often misinterpret big, strong beginners' actions.

The mistake that I see most often is taking the following situation: A
beginner (of whatever size, but the bigger folk tend to be treated with less
sensitivity) simply WILL NOT fall!  The erroneous assumption that I always
find myself making is that the beginner is trying to "test" the validity of
the technique or somehow challenge my abilities.  But I think that in
actuallity the truth of the matter is that the beginner is simply VERY
uncomfortable with falling.  Even if they do well with Ukeme at the start of
class they get extremely intimidated by the prospect of being thrown. 
Taking that person and throwing them anyway is not the right thing to do. 
And for people coming into the dojo with big ego's, telling them that
they're afraid to fall is also probably not the best approach  (that's when
I pull the old:  I know I'm a wimp, you don't have to tell me, could you
please just play along with me).  The best thing to do is to let them take
the fall on their own terms until they seem to be getting it, and then you
very subtly start throwing them.  I'm always amazed at how quickly beginners
improve (in all aspects) once you can convince them that falling isn't
painful.

-David Iverson


--
diverson@phys.ksu.edu
From: esot@troi.cc.rochester.edu (Eric Sotnak)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: More ki/qi/chi & science
Date: 15 Dec 92 18:14:59 GMT
Organization: University of Rochester - Rochester, New York

In <1992Dec15.110056.7182@sei.cmu.edu> psc@sei.cmu.edu (Peter Capell) writes:

>Well, perhaps you are correct, however, I would guess that even if you were to
>identify a measurable, you'd still be laughed at and ridiculed.  It wouldn't
>make any difference.  Most original thinkers are laughed at, but especially by
>the orthodoxy, which in this example happens to be community of physics
>scholars. 

  I don't think I agree with this.  Original thinkers may be laughed at when
they propose theories that have not yet been experimentally/observationally
confirmed.  But when there are experimentally derived data that support the
new theory and cohere less well with the previously accepted standard than
with the new theory, the new theory (or some semblance thereof) is accepted,
or at least no longer the object of scorn.

  The problem with experimental confirmation of the existence of ki/qi is
that there doesn't seem to be a well-articulated/defined phenomenon to
investigate.  A proposal to investigate ki/qi would be ill-received, not so
much because of an anti-eastern-mumbo-jumbo-bias in Western scientists, but
because it would be difficult to articulate the details of such a proposal. 
What you need is, first of all, a role which ki/qi is supposed to play in
some system or other (the body, perhaps).  Then you need to design an
experiment which focusses on that role in such a way that there is a
phenomenon (or set thereof) which ki/qi is hypothesized to be responsible
for, and which manifests itself under conditions such that alternative
explanatory factors are ruled out.  Part of the problem in designing an
experiment to test for ki/qi is that there seems to be no consensus as to
what the properties of ki/qi are supposed to be.  If you say that its
defining property is that it is what makes living things live, then you need
to show that it is (a) something over and above cells, amino acids, etc., or
(b) a functional relation among such cells, amino acids, etc. (in which case
experimental confirmation of its existence is wholly unnecessary -- a
stipulative definition will do just fine).

  Properly speaking, science is a METHOD, not a body of accepted doctrines. 
If you say the standardly accepted doctrines of Western science exclude
ki/qi, you are right.  But there is no reason to suppose that the scientific
method is incompatible with such a stuff/thing/phenomenon -- all we need to
do is articulate what ki/qi is suppoed to BE (really).
--
********************************************************************
Eric Sotnak                   |  One life.
esot@troi.cc.rochester.edu    |  One chance. 
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: jlahti@pcuf.fi (Jarmo Lahti)
Subject: group for judo?
Organization: The PC-users of Finland
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 06:46:39 GMT

I have been reading this group some half a year now, and I must
say, that even if this is interesting, it is too much...
Because I am interested of more judo related stuff, I would like
to subscribe something like rec.martial-arts.judo, but at least
here it seems not to be found that. Is there somewhere in the net?
I have been started to think, that we judokas are not as active in
net conversation as other martial artist. At least in this group
judo related messages much more rare that karate related. I do not
know how much there are judokas and karatekas amongst the readers
of this group, but at least in Finland the number of judokas is NOT
as little compared to the number of karatekas, as is the number
of judo related msgs compared to karate related msgs here in this
newsgroup.
From: krause@hpindda.cup.hp.com (Mike Krause)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Standing Meditation
Date: 17 Dec 92 15:06:48 GMT
Organization: HP Information Networks, Cupertino, CA

/ hpindda:rec.martial-arts / aj6924234@ntuvax.ntu.ac.sg / 10:23 pm  Dec  6, 1992 /
>	I've been practicing some Tai-Chi recently.  It seems that the
>internal arts have the practice of maintaining a static pose with the
>practitioner's arms stretched  out horizontally as if holding a large
>ball in front of his chest.  
>	My seniors claim that the purpose of this practice is to 
>	1.	strengthen one's legs
>	2.	calm one's mind
>	3.	buildup chi
>
>	Could anyone tell me if there are other purposes for doing the
>a/m practice ?  Also what have you experienced while practicing it.
>It seems to be emphasised a lot in my school.
----------

This position also works on one's posture by "connecting" the body.  If a
person is "connected", the back is in a stronger postion, their balance
is better, and skeletal strength can be used.  In addition, since the 
position causes muscles to tense and such tension is painful, a person
eventually learns how to relax the muscles and understand and control the
pain.  Again, all of this does develop physical and mental strength as
you have already been told.  I would say this is one of the most popular
and beneficial postures to meditate in that I have seen.  BTW, if one
adjusts the arms to different positions, one will also strengthen them and
learn to relax the muscles under stress.  Also, there are a number of 
non-static postures one can go through that also build up these areas.
Many even view forms as a series of meditative postures - the best Tai Chi
practioners I have seen actually meditate throughout the form and their
movements are much more smooth and free than those who are too concious
of what they are doing.  This does assume one has the basic positions and
transitions down and is able to move without thinking about every little
step along the way.
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: geg@beep.mis.semi.harris.com (Gregory E. Garland)
Subject: Re: Ki and science
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 15:34:25 GMT
Organization: Manufacturing Systems, Harris Semicondutor

In article <1992Dec14.093652.3157@siemens.co.at>, ek@patty.gud.siemens.co.at (Ernst Krudl) writes:
|> I have come across an article where Qigong MAsters had their external
|> Qi investigated by scientific methods. This was done in CHina, I believe.
|> One Qigong Master was found to radiate fine particles, the other ultrared
|> (not infrared, the other side of red) radiation. The article did not give
|> details on the equipment used. 

He radiated yellow light?  Ah! The golden glow! :-)

You should be _extremely_ wary of articles in popular literature that
give proof by obscure reference to alleged "scientific studies". 

-- 
Greg Garland - Alive, occupying space, and exerting gravitational force

MS 62-024, Harris Semiconductor Sector, PO Bx 883, 
Melbourne  FL 32905.  geg@beep.mis.semi.harris.com

"Never let the facts interfere with your perception of reality."
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Kenpo
From: croberts@next-1.gac.edu (Christopher J Roberts)
Date: 15 Dec 92 13:46:57 -0600

A local gym recently began to offer classes on Kenpo.
My question is "What exactly is it?  I was told it was
a Korean style of karate but other than that I am ignorant.
Any information would be greatly appreciated.  Feel free to
email me or to post.

			-- Chris --

croberts@gac.edu

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Did Adam and Eve have belly buttons?
From: sog@craycos.com (Steve Gombosi)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: stranglehold
Date: 15 Dec 92 01:07:41 GMT
Organization: Cray Computer Corporation

In article <4364@unisql.UUCP> wrat@unisql.UUCP (wharfie) writes:
>In article <1992Dec12.013515.6182@desire.wright.edu> jchristian@desire.wright.edu writes:
>>Someone who knows what they're doing with a strangehold can render you 
>>helpless in about one second.  
>
>	Someone who understands shime-waza wouldn't attack by grabbing your
>neck in her hands and squeezing.
>
>>If you've never experienced a really good stranglehold, try to get someone to
>
>	I'd venture to say that I've been strangled enough times to fill
>up a short int's worth of bits...  
>
>> If you feel like your throat's being mangled after just one
>>second, then the other person is doing it right.
>
>	No, if that's the feeling then the other guy is relying on 
>strength and not doing it right at all.  A proper strangle looks (and
>feels) like a caress.

BINGO!

Wharfie, this whole thread started out as a "self-defense" query, not
as a treatise on strangulation methods. Yes, a two-hads-around-the-throat-
from-the-front choke is technically inept. I don't think *anybody* disputes 
the notion that this is a maladroit way to choke someone. It is also
a pretty typical method for untrained, but homicidal individuals - 
particularly large ones. I've known several women who've been
attacked this way. I've seen large, ugly, drunken guys attack one another
this way. Yes, the attacker is "relying on strength." That
doesn't make the attack innocuous. If someone who outweighs you by 
50-100 pounds attacks you this way, your life is in real, immediate
danger. Any karateka will tell you that a haymaker is a technically 
inept, slow, easily blocked attack. That doesn't mean it won't hurt 
you. If some 200 lb lunatic actually *hits* you with one, you are going
to go *down*. Period. The same is true of the "front choke." Since
it *is* a relatively typical attack (remember, the average mugger/rapist
isn't a 4th dan in Judo), it's incumbent on those of us who are practicing
for something *other* than sporting applications to be able to handle it.
Yeah, it's stupid. Yeah, any ju* shime-waza is more effective. That's not
the point - I'm not planning on *using* that as a technique and I'm not
particularly interested in critiquing an assailants technique until 
*after* he's incapacitated - if you don't mind.

OK?

Steve
From: twcaps@tennyson.lbl.gov (Terry Chan)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Ki and science
Date: 14 Dec 1992 17:53:59 GMT
Organization: Department of Redundancy Department
Reply-To: TWChan@lbl.gov (Terry Chan)
NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.3.12.117

ek@patty.gud.siemens.co.at (Ernst Krudl) writes:

  +I have come across an article where Qigong MAsters had their external
  +Qi investigated by scientific methods. This was done in CHina, I believe.
  +One Qigong Master was found to radiate fine particles, the other ultrared
  +(not infrared, the other side of red) radiation. The article did not give
  +details on the equipment used. 

They hardly ever do.

  +I wonder if there are investigations of that kind known to anybody in more
  +detail or if there are done any in Western states.
  +Once some classes of QI expression are identified on an accepted level,
  +biofeedback training might accelerate the investigation.
  +I personally would like this kind of serious game, put some hardware in 
  +my PC, the sensors on the other side of the room, and see if I can reach
  +any.
  +So I suggest the Qi masters should provide their Qi, and the siencemasters
  +their equipment.

Oh, there's no shortage of Qigong folks working with Chinese 
"scientists," but I've got to wonder.  A very in/famous Qigong
master named Yan Xin claimed to have induced the heavy rainfall
which helped to put out a huge wildfire burning in northeast
China (Inner Mongolia autonomous region).  He has supposedly
worked with Chinese scientists and also claimed to have:  
a) reversed polarity on a laser (of which I am not exactly 
sure what this means), b) reduced the amount of HIV in a sample, 
c) purified "polluted" water.

There may be something to qigong, but folks like this really
don't do much to help advance their cause.  Biofeedback has
been claimed as an eventual means of detecting qi flow since
like the 50s (I recall R.W. Smith writing/hoping a bit in this 
area).  Further, the penchant of some Chinese "scientists"
to come out with timely findings (e.g., archeological evidence
that the Chinese discovered America long before Columbus during
the 500th year celebrations) doesn't help their credibility 
either.

Of course, this doesn't necessarily mean that qi is bogus in
general; just that the folks who made some claims are bogus.
But I dunno....

Terry 
--
Energy and Environment Division   | Internet:  TWChan@lbl.gov
Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory      | 
Berkeley, California  USA  94720  | Carpe Per Diem
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: ftit@bigtwohearted.engin.umich.edu (Sergej Roytman)
Subject: Re: Still more on qi/chi
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 92 13:56:43 EST
Organization: University of Michigan Engineering, Ann Arbor
Originator: ftit@bigtwohearted.engin.umich.edu


In article <1992Dec15.114957.8243@sei.cmu.edu>, psc@sei.cmu.edu (Peter Capell) writes:
|
|14-Dec-92 ftit@woundedknee.engin.umich.edu (Sergej Roytman) Re: ki and science
|>Perhaps the results will be strange enough to make
|>scientists revise their perceptions of something or other.  Maybe you
|>will even discover something entirely new.  In any case, just saying it
|>exists simply because you felt it isn't going to convince anyone.
|
|Funny, this is about the 5th or 6th example of someone patronizing me because
|I have some contempt (skepticism) of the scientific community.  I never
|suggested anyone should believe me in any case.  I said it doesn't matter what
|the scientific community says.  I don't need their input.  They, on the 
|other hand, would be well advised to consider a large body of anecdotal as
|well as some (see French study above) scientific data suggesting that the
|Chinese/Indians knew something of what they spoke 5000 years ago.

No attempt at patronizing here.  But you must admit that if you want
someone to leave his perfectly good job researching the ganglia of
cephelopods to study chi, a purely subjective argument won't be likely
to convince him.  He's got a family to support and the last thing he
wants is to be thought a crackpot.  If your French doctor comes up with
anything interesting maybe others will start working in this area.  I
for one would be very interested.  I'm sure that many other (and more
competent) people would too.

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
|  ftit@engin.umich.edu   |   "... a stainless steel rat in the       |
|    (Sergej Roytman)     |  ferroconcrete wainscoting of Internet"   |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Say no to four-line .sigs.
From: david@elwood.NoSubdomain.NoDomain (David Johnson)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Finishing techniques
Date: 17 Dec 92 17:29:52 GMT

In article <1992Dec13.143844.298@cs.mun.ca>, matthew@cs.mun.ca (Matthew J. Newhook) writes:
|> ph2sct@sdcc14.ucsd.edu (Dzu Nguyen) writes:
|> 
|> >I think what I would do is put a nikyo (aikido, the 'tupperware'
|> >technique). Drop him with my center thereby ripping out his
|> >shoulder. Then I would keep the pin because even if he is 7' 300
|> >lbs. and using PCP, he won't be able to get out of the pin without
|> >ripping his arm off.  As for the second thing i would do,
|> >well...that's all folks.
|> 
|> No, for people this strung out that would not work.  The person would
|> just stand right up, with no regard to his broken wrist.  A similar
|> problem results with Sankyo, and Kotegeishi.  The person would simply
|> let their joint get broken.  Techniques that rely on pain, such as the
|> above, imo simply would not work.  I think that Iriminage, or Shionage
|> would be a far superior choice in this position.  Just drive his head
|> through the ground, that should stop him :)
|> 
|> >Dave (using Dzu's account)


I agree with Matthew.  I have heard that people on PCP have been
known to tear their own eyes out.  If they would do that I do not
think they would have a problem with tearing a joint or ligament or
break a bone.

-- 
David Johnson
XLNT Designs, Inc. (XDI)
david@xlnt.com
From: rterry@hpcupt1.cup.hp.com (Ray Terry)
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 22:44:42 GMT
Subject: Re: Re: Aiki Jujutsu (was: Combat effectiveness?)
Organization: Hewlett Packard, Cupertino
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts

>Yes, I agree with you here. Judo I found a good "sport" but in
>the street against punch/kick types it lacks offense.
>TKD is fine if your opponent stands there for a kicking but if he can
>move ( which most do ! ) you can find your rubber legs wrapped around
>your neck !!

And TKD opponents just stand there!?!?!   Cheez, some people...

As a TKD player, I agree that TKD may not be the best MA for self-defense
(and not everybody takes MA for self-defense purposes), however not
for the reasons you state.  Experienced TKD players have _no_ trouble with
opponents that move.  We practice daily against targets/opponents moving
in, out, left, right, angles, etc. 

Ray
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: egross@jarthur.claremont.edu (Erik Maynard Gross)
Subject: Re: Seagal Hits The Big Time
Organization: Harvey Mudd College, Claremont, CA 91711
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 09:21:05 GMT

In article <1992Dec17.162341.360@news.uwyo.edu> rtravsky@news.uwyo.edu (Rich Travsky) writes:
>Well, looks like Steven Seagal has finally hit the big time.
>What's that you say? He did some time ago? Tut tut... You 
>haven't hit the big time until you've been on the cover of
>the tabloids.
>
>Today, at lunch, whilst at the local Safeway, I saw, on the
>cover of the "Globe", the following headline: Steven Seagal
>Bigamy Secret!  It claims he has a wife in Japan, in addition
>to one here in the states. Regrettably I did not have time
>to peruse this shining example of yellow-belt journalism.
>
>Richard Travsky
>Division of Information Technology     RTRAVSKY @ CORRAL.UWYO.EDU
>University of Wyoming                  (307) 766 - 3663 / 3668
>"Don't try to understand them, just rope, throw, and brand 'em"

Better make that "had" a wife in Japan, it was some time ago.  However his
(ex) half-brother from that relationship is still a friend of his, and takes
ukeme for him in movies.  I had a chance to meet him; nice guy.

	-erik
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: kevin@pages.com (Kevin Sven Berg)
Subject: Re: The Harmony Factor (taiji san sao)
Keywords: push-hands, san sao, twi sao
Organization: Banzai Research Institute
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 18:28:14 GMT

In article <1992Dec15.180922.28045@srg.srg.af.mil> schan@birch.srg.af.mil  
(Stephen Chan x4485) writes:
> In article <1992Dec14.184546.23988@athena.mit.edu> ras@athena.mit.edu  
(Richard A Shandross) writes:
> 
> >Never learned san shou in my 9 years of lessons.  Makes me wonder if my 
> >teacher had ever practiced it.
> 
> 	Perhaps not - most of the people who teach Taiji seem to have a very
> restricted curriculum.
> --

As always, mileage varies according to instructor. You might consider that
some mainland Taiji teachers didn't teach twi sao or san sao well into
several years of study, and then rather infrequently. Instead they focused
intently on technique and the classics.

It always amused me when Robert Fong visited China with T.Y. Pang, and he
learned push-hands prior to a tournament, only to defeat those people he
went up against. There's nothing wrong with learning the basics 
*really, really* well.

regards,

Kevin




-- 
Kevin Sven Berg               /    /    /    /  P /  a /  g /  e /  s
kevin@pages.com              /    /    /    /    /    /    /    / 
Pages Software Inc.         /    /    /    /    /    /    /    /   
San Diego, CA.               `    `    `    `    `    `    `    `