HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: philip@mentorg.com (Philip Peake)
Subject: Re: Grand Cherokee v. Explorer
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 23:00:13 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Mentor Graphics
Keywords: 
Followup-To: 

In article <1992Dec22.152048.14891@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>, mtaylor@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Mark Taylor) writes:
|> I'm interested in opinions of current owners of the Jeep Grand 
|> Cherokee and the Ford Explorer on their vehicles.
|> 
|> I'm sure I'm in the right place for plenty of opinions... :-)

I have a two month old Jeep Grand Cherokee. I can't say much about
the Explorer (other than when I park my Jeep next to an Explorer
of the same colour, its difficult to tell them apart ...).

My main complains are not with the Jeep itself, but the dealers
(familiar story ...); not one of them was willing to even
attempt to get me what I wanted - it was what was in the
current stock or nothing. Eventually I found more or less
what I wanted, and bought it - the price was rather high, but
at that time, Jeeps were selling VERY well, and there was not
much incentive for dealers to bargain.

The two problems that I had:

1) A rattle from the dash area.
2) A noise from the rear - like clapped out shock absorbers.
	(I have up-country suspension).

I took it into the dealer to complain.
He said that the rear end noise was probably because Jeep
sometimes didn't fit rubber isolating mats above and
below the rear springs - they would fit them.

Later in the day, they called me at work to ask if they could
keep the Jeep until the next day, since they hadn't found the
dash rattle - I agreed ...

Next day (evening) I collected it. They still hadn't found the
rattle, and asked me to make another appointment. I did so.

When I got into the Jeep, I almost sat on the front heater
vent cover ... I put it back myself and went home.

Next day, the rear end noise was still there. The dash rattle
was still there. And so was another new, LOUD noise in the dash
area.

A couple of day later, I took it back ...

I had the service manager and workshop manager together look at
the rear end - they then admitted that it was probably the
up-country (high pressure gas) shocks which were making the noise,
and that Chrysler know about it, and were re-designing them - and there
was a back order for the new ones when they appear ...

When I collected the Jeep that evening, they had found the dash rattle.
It was a screw INSIDE the air conditioner duct ... they had replaced the
rear shocks with standard (low pressure gas) ones, and ordered new
high pressure ones - and warned me that it may take one or two months
for them to arrive. That did fix the probelm - but now, a couple of weeks
later, there is a noise suspiciously like the previous one coming from
the back ...

Also, when I drove to work the next day - the water temperature
guage wasn't working ... so another trip to the dealer ....
who fixed it in about an hour.

Overall I am really happy with the Jeep - I just wonder why
Chrysler had to design their own gas shocks, rather than buy
them from someone like Monroe ???

So far, yes, I would buy another one ...

Philip
From: dh3q+@andrew.cmu.edu (Daniel U. Holbrook)
Newsgroups: rec.autos
Subject: Re: Laforza - What is it?
Date: 2 Jan 93 01:45:53 GMT
Organization: Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA

If I remember correctly, the Laforza was an attempt by some (swiss??
Italian??) folks in the late '80s to make a top-class 4x4.   They
apparently made a few (don't know how many) but didn't cut the mustard
financially. One of the car rags did an article/test a few years ago,
and, again if I remember correctly, liked it a whole lot.  Don't
remember any more. Where'd you see this thing?
Newsgroups: rec.autos
From: glk9533@tm0006.lerc.nasa.gov (Greg L. Kimnach)
Subject: Re: Car bras
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: NASA Lewis Research Center / Cleveland, Ohio
Distribution: na
Date: 24 Dec 1992 11:11 EST  

In article <1992Dec23.201658.8619@iscnvx.lmsc.lockheed.com>, sharen@iscnvx.lmsc.lockheed.com (Sharen A. Rund) writes...
> 
>I don't suppose there's another way to get to work in order to avoid
>the construction, etc, or changing your hours to avoid the heavy
>trucks at that area?
> 
>I know what you mean about the spots on the car/paint, especially if
>its black, my car is black and has some minor road damage, my husband
>has touched up the chips with paint, then, when its 'cured' he uses a
>rubbing compound to even out the area and blend it into the rest of the
>car, then he waxes it - someone with a _really_ good eye can see the
>marks, but I'm not showing the car - we keep the car clean (on the coast
>we get salt) and well waxed so there's less noticeable damage...
> 
>remember, moister, etc can get under a bra, then really louse up the
>paint - so, its six of one, half dozen of another as to use the bra
>or not, which type of paint damage can you live with???
         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

There are maintainance tips that should be followed when using a bra:  remove 
once aweek, wash, dry, put a good coat of wax on the front-end, don't leave the
bra on when wet (to avoid mildew buil-up),.....  These are factors within
your control; road conditions are not.

Greg
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
                         ED-Beta: Simply THE BEST!
"ED Beta is simply the best consumer videotape format available."
                                     --VIDEO Magazime, Nov. 1992, page 30.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: jca@bliss.fibercom.com (JC "Bondologist" Akers)
Newsgroups: rec.autos
Subject: car cover care
Date: 21 Dec 92 22:43:19 GMT
Organization: FiberCom, Inc., Roanoke, Virginia

Howdy,
  My favorite car cover (it also happens to be my only car cover) has gotten
seriously sleazzy over the past few months; even to the point where I cannot
bear to put it on my car anymore.  I figured that there would be a
net.wisdom for cleaning these things...   it's an old problem, so surely
someone has the answer!

Please email as I will be busy as hell in the next few weeks...  I will
summarize if there is enough interest.  All help/advice appreciated!
JC.
-- 
 ____________________________________________________________________________
|   James C. Akers   |       ...and I just can't hold the tears back         |
|  jca@fibercom.com  |     'cause Betsy's growing old.       -The Beach Boys |
|_uunet!fibercom!jca_|_FiberCom,_Inc.__Roanoke,_Virginia__(703)342-6700_x280_|
From: mills@athena.lkg.dec.com (George Mills)
Newsgroups: rec.autos
Subject: Re: Passat - to buy or not to
Date: 28 Dec 92 14:41:12 GMT

greg.roberts@dwarp.sccsi.com (Greg Roberts) writes:

>Car has 21K miles, has averaged 27.9 mpg total.  Maintenance has
>consisted of replacing one torn CV joint boot (under warranty), the
>aforementioned electric window, along with regular oil & filter changes
>& tire rotation.  Oil consumption dropped to less than 1 qt/4000 miles
>about the 14K mile mark (I assume it has finally gotten broken in).

1 qt per 4000 that seems to me to about a qt too much.
Really I've had about 4 new cars over the years and only one used
any oil (at 80k miles and it's a visable leak). I also change
my oil at manufacturers recommended intervals (5000-7500 miles).
All were small engines and one was a VW Jetta. It may be normal
but I'd ask other owners.
Newsgroups: rec.autos
From: bw@TorreyPinesCA.ncr.com (Bruce White 3807)
Subject: Re: How to fight AAA?
Organization: NCR (Torrey Pines Development Center)
Disclaimer: This posting does not necessarily reflect the opinions of NCR.
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 92 18:52:25 GMT

I think that Tom's advice is on the mark. I talked to a woman who
works at a Honda dealer and she told me that she had to battle
Farmer's for about 6 weeks when they offered her Blue Book 
wholesale for her car. She got several witnesses who signed
documents stating that the car was in excellent shape, had photos
reproduced, but until she offhandedly mentioned over the phone
that she had talked to a lawyer-friend who mentioned something about 
"breach-of-contract", they were still stalling. 15 minutes later they
called her back and offered her Blue Book retail.

She was insured with Farmer's, and claimed that this tactic wouldn't
work in my case since I am haggling with the other driver's company (AAA).

--- Bruce
Organization: Central Michigan University
Date: Tuesday, 29 Dec 1992 18:22:45 EST
From: Christopher Khoury <34I2NYW@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU>
Newsgroups: rec.autos
Subject: URGENT: Is Camry V6 worth the money?

   Hi, I am thinking about buying a Camry now, and I am wondering,
is the Camry V6 worth the extra money? I test drove a 4 cylinder,
and it seemed nice, but V6 would be nice too. I would just like
some opinions of the 4 and 6 cylinder Camry owners out there.

If at all possible, I need an answer by tomorrow (wednesday)
at noon. so it is urgent. Thanks!

--CHris
---------------------------
    CHRISTOPHER KHOURY
34I2NYW@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU
---------------------------
Organization: Central Michigan University
Date: Tuesday, 29 Dec 1992 11:20:43 EST
From: Don Turnbull <32HEN4B@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU>
Newsgroups: rec.autos
Subject: Re: Saturn's Allegedly "Noisy" Engine
 <24DEC199214361374@pearl.tufts.edu>

I don't know what you fellows had been driving before (with one

exception), but I test drove a '92 sl2 yesterday with a friend.

I have purposely not read any review, article, or info on the

Saturn because it is a brand new company and word of mouth was good

and I wanted to form my own opinion.  I saw these articles and I couldn't

resist.

  The car I drove was priced at 17,000+.  It was as noisy as my '83

Z-28 5.0 liter H.O. angine.  I was painfully aware of the engine

at all rpm above 2000 and actually winced at 4000.  In comparison,

I also test drove a 93 Cutlass Supreme Special Edition with everything

the Saturn had except airbag, ABS, and 4-cyl for $1000 less.  It had a

six-cylinder engine and drove like the family car the Saturn is

advertised as.  This car, however, was smoother shifting (auto) and

an order of magnitude quieter.

The Saturn's ABS worked well enough, but there was no difference

in traction control (even on ice!) between catious, appropriate

driving and traction control activated.  Further, the interior

of the Saturn was very Chevy-esque and small.  I was barely

contained by the front buckets and crushed in the back (on a 4-door)

yet.

  In contrast, the Cutlass had comfortable, full-sized front buckets

and a back-seat acceptable for a family.  There was little difference

between the Cutlasses all-wheel disc-brakes and the Saturn's ABS.

The only lamentable difference was the lack of an airbag and GM's

atrocious passive restraint system (don't get into a roll-over in

them!).

  In closing, the top-model Saturn was a $12-13k car for only

$3-4k more.  The Cutlas was a $17-19k car for $1-3 less.  No

contest.


Oh, by the way, EPA MPG estimates were nearly identical for both!
From: tobias@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Steve Tobias)
Newsgroups: rec.autos
Subject: Re: Advertising fee and holdback for Probe
Date: 29 Dec 92 11:47:28 GMT
Reply-To: tobias@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Steve Tobias)
Distribution: usa
Organization: Carderock Division, NSWC, Bethesda, MD

In rec.autos, aland@informix.com (Colonel Panic) writes:
>Look, guys.  There is a difference that you are overlooking.  The advertising
>fee is a direct cost of goods to the dealer -- remember, auto dealers are owned
>and operated independently of the auto manufacturers.  That advertising-fee
>cost is a separate line item that the dealer passes on to the customer directly
      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>(and the dealer makes no profit on it, BTW).  If it really makes you feel
>better, they could fold it into the base price of the vehicle, if you really
>insist on kidding yourselves that you aren't paying for it...


    Likewise, the plumber's charge to the dealer for unclogging the toilet
in the restroom is a separate charge, as is the dealership's electric bill,
office supplies bill, etc. It is still all part of the dealer's cost
of doing business. If they're going to list the advertising fee charged
by the car's manufacturer, they should also list the holdback which
the same manufacturer gives the dealer a month or two after the car
is sold, a pro-rated share of any sales volume bonuses the dealer winds
up getting, etc. But that would be to the customer's benefit, so you
know those credits will never be listed.
					      Steve
Newsgroups: rec.autos
From: smw@trm.concordia.ca ( Steven Winikoff )
Subject: Re: Car phones
Organization: Concordia University, Montreal, Quebec
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 21:13:14 GMT

In article <1992Dec22.163427.18691@dg-rtp.dg.com>, goudreau@batman.rtp.dg.com
(Bob Goudreau) writes:
> 
> So I trust that you also never engage in driver-passenger conversation
> while in a moving vehicle?  And if you do, please explain the
> fundamental difference between that and hands-free phone use.

Actually, that's easy.  The fundamental difference is that passengers
(at least those who aren't too young/blind/stupid to be aware of
anything going on around them) can see what's happening on the road.

A passenger knows that you may not be able to respond immediately during
any situation that demands your full attention.  The person on the other
end of the phone, on the other hand, doesn't know that you're merging
into heavy traffic, trying to make a left turn against heavy oncoming
traffic, or whatever.

There is a difference.

I don't have a cellular phone (and won't until the *operating* costs are
substantially lower than they are now), but when I eventually pop for
one I expect to do what the previous poster did:  namely, purchase a
portable unit and simply not use it while moving.

    - Steven 
________________________________________________________________________
Steven Winikoff      |       smw@         | "I don't want to run the
Software Analyst     | alcor.concordia.ca | world; I merely want to own
Computing Services   |                    | a substantial portion of the
Concordia University | (514) 848-7619     | preferred stock" - Alan Dean
Montreal, QC, Canada | (10:00-18:00 EST)  | Foster,  Cat-A-Lyst
From: jslee@nrtc.nrtc.northrop.com (John Lee <jslee>)
Newsgroups: rec.autos
Subject: Re: emblems
Date: 23 Dec 92 17:14:40 GMT
Reply-To: jslee@nrtc.nrtc.northrop.com (John Lee)
Distribution: na

When are the Japanese going to learn how to do plastichrome(tm)
correctly?  Especially Datsun/Nissan and Subaru nameplates are
notorious for the chrome on their plastic nameplates chipping off.  

Toyota, famous for attention to minor details, has an annoying
problem with their nameplates on their new cars.  For example, on the
Camry, the TOYOTA nameplae looks like TO_Y_OT_A because they do not
black-out the connecting kerning bar between the letters.  Bad bad
bad for a Japanese car company.  L_E_XU_S has the same problem by the
way.  
JSLee
From: shaig@Think.COM (Shai Guday)
Newsgroups: rec.autos
Subject: Re: CB Walkie-Talkie
Date: 30 Dec 1992 22:30:45 GMT
Organization: Thinking Machines Corporation, Cambridge MA, USA
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: galaxy.think.com

In article <72513@cup.portal.com>, Harv@cup.portal.com (Harv R Laser) writes:
|> and had the same thing happen. I mean, ya keep yyour ca in
|> top shape, drive at or under the limit, watch your Ps and Qs 
|> and then out of the blue, some idiot's ladder is sitting in the
|> fast lane waiting to eat your tires. 
|> 
|> To wrap this tale up, when we got back to his car to wait for
|> the AAA truck, there were 3 or 4 other cars behind his, all with
|> flat tires, all from having hit the same ladder. 

Gee, that was nice of you leaving that ladder out there allowing
other motorists to share the experience.

-- 
Shai Guday		| Mastering martial arts allows one to remain calm in a
OS Software Engineer	| crisis by thinking of various ways to dismember irri-
Thinking Machines Corp. | tating people, as you calmly proceed to dismember them.
From: jimf@centerline.com (Jim Frost)
Newsgroups: rec.autos
Subject: Re: Saturn's Allegedly "Noisy" Engine
Date: 22 Dec 1992 14:01:59 GMT
Organization: CenterLine Software, Inc.
NNTP-Posting-Host: 140.239.3.202

qazi@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Aamir Hafeez Qazi) writes:
>In article <1992Dec21.193304.23085@cbnewsd.cb.att.com> hhm@cbnewsd.cb.att.com (herschel.h.mayo) writes:
>>
>>From what I've gathered from owners, and my own experience and other
>>sources is that the problem with Saturn's engine noise is a myth 
>>created by car rag testers who were pressed to find anything bad  to
>>report about it. [...] Any other opinions
>>from people who have shopped around?

>--I drove a 91 Saturn SL2 with the 5-speed when it was first released.
>  That car had excessive engine noise above 3500 rpm.  It sounded like
>  Saturn bolted in a few chain saws under there.  The '92's are supposed
>  to be better, but how much better (someone fill in here) ?

I never drove a '91 but the '92 SL2 5-speed was reasonably quiet at
75mph (which is right around 3500rpm if I remember right).  It was not
intrusive and did not interfere with conversation.  They were supposed
to have done some work on the engine mounts to reduce noise and it
would appear that they succeeded.

jim frost
jimf@centerline.com
From: yongje@hardy.u.washington.edu (Yong Je Lim)
Newsgroups: rec.autos
Subject: Re: the club and airbags
Date: 3 Jan 1993 01:03:24 GMT
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
NNTP-Posting-Host: hardy.u.washington.edu

In article <XaJqwB1w165w@west.darkside.com> clone writes:
>has anyone heard of or seen what an airbag will do if the car owner has a 
>club anti-theft device on the wheel? Just wonderin...Jason.

As far as I know, the CLUB is supposed to be used to prevent from 
theft when a car is parked.  Airbag is supposed to be worked when
a car is running.  Do they, club and airbag, really bother each 
other?

- Yong Je -
Newsgroups: rec.autos
From: goudreau@batman.rtp.dg.com (Bob Goudreau)
Subject: Re: Car phones
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 92 14:59:41 GMT
Organization: Data General Corporation, RTP, NC

In article <BzoIy2.F4n@newsflash.concordia.ca> smw@trm.concordia.ca ( Steven Winikoff ) writes:
>> 
>> So I trust that you also never engage in driver-passenger conversation
>> while in a moving vehicle?  And if you do, please explain the
>> fundamental difference between that and hands-free phone use.
>
>Actually, that's easy.  The fundamental difference is that passengers
>(at least those who aren't too young/blind/stupid to be aware of
>anything going on around them) can see what's happening on the road.
>
>A passenger knows that you may not be able to respond immediately during
>any situation that demands your full attention.  The person on the other
>end of the phone, on the other hand, doesn't know that you're merging
>into heavy traffic, trying to make a left turn against heavy oncoming
>traffic, or whatever.
>
>There is a difference.

But that difference is completely irrelevant.

There's only one person in charge of my brain:  myself.  If some
driving condition suddenly arises that merits my full attention,
to the detriment of a conversation, or attempts to adjust the radio,
or play with the climate control, or whatever, then too bad for
the non-driving activity -- it loses.  I will ditch it in an instant
to devote all attention to the driving tasks at hand.  Period.

This is not something that is controlled by passengers in my car or
people at the other end of the phone (if I had a car phone, which
I don't); it's controlled by *me*.  Sometimes it even occurs without
being immediately noticed by passengers who are talking to me; they
don't figure it out until they ask me a question and fail to get a
response, or until I finish dealing with the driving situation and
say something like "Sorry, could you please repeat that?".

So tell me, are you not the master of your own attention-span when you
are driving?  If you find conversation so distracting that you must
rely on the other conversants to suspend it when a driving situation
arises, then how do you deal with listening to the radio (which is
like listening to a car phone in that the speaker on the other end
won't be able to tell when to shut up)?

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Bob Goudreau			Data General Corporation
goudreau@dg-rtp.dg.com		62 Alexander Drive	
+1 919 248 6231			Research Triangle Park, NC  27709, USA
Newsgroups: rec.autos
From: mike@mote.Berkeley.EDU (Mike Friedrich)
Subject: Re: audi - luxo-lemons?
Summary: We like our '86 5000S
Organization: University of California at Berkeley
Distribution: na
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 02:28:40 GMT

In article <1992Dec23.4168.43193@dosgate> "jim hepworth" <jim.hepworth@canrem.com> writes:
>I'm thinking of getting a used Audi (83,84,85?) for a second car for
>just wheeling around in town (non-commuting). I like the styling and
>handling reputation of these cars, but I hear negative comments on this
>car as well. The APA (Automobile Protection Agency (Canada)) gives the
>thumbs down on these car in terms of expensive maintenance, poor gas
>mileage and high depreciation after three years. The 4000 with the 2.3
>litre engine is smooth and peppy but cramped. The 5000 is roomy, but has
>more problems thna the 4000 series. I'd like to hear feedback from
>owners on how they have liked their Audi, and is it really deserving of
>its reputation. Thanks in advance.

My mom drives an '86 5000S automatic and the car is a pleasure to drive in
every respect, especially high-speed cruising and gently winding roads.  It
goes where you point it and does what you tell it to, non-intrusively but
giving you good feedback.  Handling and brakes are excellent; power is
okay.  A few repairs: warped brake rotor (repl. under warranty), loose
power steering fitting, cracked windshield (?), and of course installation
of the safety shift interlock.  A very fun car for its size and price.  The
ski sack is handy, too.

Now some more pummeling of a deceased equine (unintended acceleration):
Clearly the drivers were hitting the wrong pedal, but why?  (1) The pedals were
closer together than on some cars, which makes it easier to drive but also
easier to hit the wrong one if your foot is coming from far away from the
pedals.  (2) The driver's seat was moved to the right to protect the driver
from side impacts, and the pedals were moved to the left because of the big
auto. trans. hump in the middle.  So the pedals were slightly farther to
the left than on some cars.  (3) The idle stabilizer sometimes raised the
idle shortly after cold starting to maintain smooth running.  If you had
already shifted into gear before this happened, you may have had to apply a
little more brake pressure to maintain the same crawling speed.  This
wasn't a sudden surge.

These were not basic flaws in the Audi's design and construction, but
merely slight differences from other cars, to which one quickly adjusts.
End of story.  So, now, please, can we all just get along?

--Mike
UC Berkeley Mechanical Engineering
Newsgroups: rec.autos
From: mcelmury@plains.NoDak.edu (Michael McElmury)
Subject: Re: A couple questions...
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 01:12:09 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: North Dakota Higher Education Computing Network


Newsgroups: rec.autos