HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: S2A0 <S2A0@UNB.CA>
Subject: POPULATION OF GONDOR
Organization: The University of New Brunswick
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 16:41:50 GMT

        I'VE BEEN THINKING ABOUT THE DUNEDAIN IN MIDDLE-EARTH RECENTLY,
 AND I CAN'T FIGURE OUT THE SIZE OF THEIR POPULATION.
        WHEN NUMENOR WAS OVERTHROWN ELENDIL AND HIS FOLLOWERS ESCAPED IN
 9 SHIPS. ON REACHING MIDDLE-EARTH ELENDIL AND HIS SONS FOUNDED BOTH
 GONDOR AND ARNOR. I DON'T KNOW HOW SUCH A SMALL GROUP OF PEAPLE COULD
CREATE TWO VERY LARGE KINGDOMS EACH CONTAINING A NUMBER OF BIG CITIES.
        VERY SOON AFTER THE DUNEDAIN WERE INVOLVED IN THE WAR OF THE
LAST ALLIANCE. THE LOSSES IN THIS WAR MUST HAVE BEEN HUGE AND YET BOTH
KINGDOMS WERE STILL ABLE TO FLOURISH AFTER.
        I KNOW THAT IN GONDOR THE DUNEDAIN MIXED WITH THE PEOPLES THEY
FOUND LIVING ROUND THE WHITE MOUNTAINS BUT IT SEEMS TO ME THAT THE
DUNEDAIN MUST HAVE BEEN A TINY MINORITY.THEY SHOULD HAVE DISSAPEARED IN
A FEW GENERATIONS.
        IN ARNOR IT SEEMS TO ME THAT THE DUNEDAIN DID NOT HAVE A NATIVE
POPULATION THEY WERE WILLING TO MERGE WITH (THE BREELANDERS SEEMED TO
HAVE BEEN UNAFFECTED BY THEIR CENTURIES OF ARNORIAN RULE.) YET ARNOR
EXPANDED, WAS ABLE TO FRAGMENT AND ENGAGE IN NUMEROUS CIVIL WARS.
        TO CAP IT ALL THE DUNEDAIN ARE REFERRED TO AS HAVING A NOTABLY
SLOW REPRODUCTION RATE.
        SO I WONDER IF ANYONE CAN HELP ME WITH THIS QUESTION :
        WHERE DID ALL OF THE DUNEDAIN COME FROM?
From: f23@bombadil.NoSubdomain.NoDomain (Fiupso-DESS )
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Searching informations about Elves Runes
Date: 21 Jan 93 14:09:45 GMT
Organization: GRECO Programmation du CNRS - Bordeaux,France

Does anybody knows where I can find more infos about the Elves Runes ? 
I found that the Appendix of the LOTR was not detailed enough.

Thanx
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: larshaug@ifi.uio.no (Lars Haugseth)
Subject: Re: Questions AFfter First Silmarillion Reading
Organization: Dept. of Informatics, University of Oslo, Norway
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 18:09:22 GMT
Originator: larshaug@yrsa.ifi.uio.no


In article <1993Jan28.155253.3187@dct.ac.uk>, mcspikta@dct.ac.uk writes:
> In article <1k4of0INNn84@iskut.ucs.ubc.ca>, peters@physics.ubc.ca (Dan Peters) writes:
> > Jeff Liss writes (about The Silmarillion):
> 
> > 
> > (Does anyone other than me think the story of Turin would make a cool movie?)
>  
>     They might have to leave out the part about the incest though.
> 

Why??? In that case they'll have to rewrite the whole ending.
NO WAY!

Lars H
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: os2man@panix.com (Larry Salomon Jr.)
Subject: Re: Searching informations about Elves Runes
Organization: PANIX Public Access Unix, NYC
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 16:26:50 GMT

In <1993Jan21.140945.1861@greco-prog.fr> f23@bombadil.NoSubdomain.NoDomain (Fiupso-DESS ) writes:

>Does anybody knows where I can find more infos about the Elves Runes ? 
>I found that the Appendix of the LOTR was not detailed enough.

A *long* time ago, someone gave me a copy of the entire Elven rune
alphabet, which I imagine came from LOTR.  It was a Xeroxed article from
a role-playing magazine.  I would suggest writing to one (or more) DnD
magazines asking them for the info.

Cheers,
Q
-- 
"If you choose not to decide, you  | "My other body is in the shop" - seen
 still have made a choice" - Rush  |  on a T-shirt
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-- Go OS/2!  Go OS/2!  Go OS/2!  Go OS/2!  Go OS/2!  Go OS/2!  Go OS/2!  --
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: schere@aix.rpi.edu (Mithrandir)
Subject: Re: Alatar and Pallando
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy, NY
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 13:17:45 GMT

In article <1993Jan22.192020.4098@leland.Stanford.EDU> alderson@cisco.com (Rich Alderson) writes:
>In article <#wg3#g#@rpi.edu>, schere@aix (Mithrandir) writes:
>>Sparked by the sudden interest in the two Ithryn Luin, I did a little digging.
>>The two Wizards were named Alatar and Pallando.  When the Maiar were asked
>>who would go to Middle Earth to battle Sauron with a considerable handicap
>>(weaknesses of the flesh), only two came forward.  Curumo (Saruman) sent
>>by Aule and Alatar who was sent by Orome.  Manwe wanted to send
>>Olorin but Olorin was not at the council.  He slunk in late and sat at the 
>>back, but Manwe called him forward and bade him go.  Yavanna begged (!) 
>>Curumo to take Aiwendil (Radagast) and Alatar took Pallando as a friend.
>
>Source citation would be good.

Sorry.  J.R.R. Tolkien, Unfinished Tales, pg. 410.


>
>>I guess Saruman always disliked Radagast.
>>
>>A few comments:  Alatar can be translated as The Radiant.  Pallando is
>>less clear, palan- is a Sindar root meaning far away or broad.  The fact that
>>Alatar took Pallando as a friend could mean they were some how a couple, as
>>a previous post had suggested.  This could be the first Maia-Maia romance
>>we've heard of, eh?
>>
>>'The Radiant' is more likely a female name.  If so, it is interesting that
>		  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>'she' was chosen by Orome.  Interesting that the female is discussed
>>more and seems more important.  Against the 'Eowyn' discussion that was 
>>flying around for a while.
>
>Why?

Well, just my first instinct... Galadriel is a female.

>-- 
>Rich Alderson   'I wish life was not so short,' he thought.  'Languages take
>                such a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about.'
>                                                        --J. R. R. Tolkien,
>alderson@leland.stanford.edu                              _The Lost Road_

Sorry about the source confusion.
Mithrandir
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Many are my names in many countries.  Mithrandir among the Elves, Tharkun to 
the Dwarves; Olorin I was in my youth in the West that is forgotten, in the 
South Incanus, in the North Gandalf; to the East I go not.
From: rolfen@flipper.pvv.unit.no (Rolf Braun)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: arwen giving Aragorn the standard of Gondor and Elendil-- where
Date: 21 Jan 93 11:11:56 GMT
Organization: ProgramVareVerkstedet - UNIT


Arwen didn't personally give the standard to Aragorn. It was delivered
by the Rangers that arrived after Aragorn and the Rohirrim reached
Dunharrow,
I think. Elronds sons, Elrohir and Elladan were with the Rangers.
And, if I'm not much mistaken, the Ranger who carried the banner, was
named Halbarad.


- Rolf.
rolfen@flipper.pvv.unit.no
From: dzik@access.digex.com (Joseph Dzikiewicz)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Hobbits in the Undying Lands
Date: 26 Jan 1993 12:06:11 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.com

In article <1993Jan26.012324.13204@ibmpa.awdpa.ibm.com> chesky@stanmusial.austin.ibm.com () writes:
>>
>>As a general rule, yes. This seems to be an exception. But we have no
>>indication that Bilbo and Frodo went to Valinor proper; my reading is
>>that they went to Tol Eressea (aka "Elvenhome"), an island near
>>Valinor.  This may count as a "suburb" of the Undying Lands, and the
>>restriction may be less rigorous.
>>-- 
>>Andrew Solovay   

But they were travelling with Elrond, Galadriel, and Gandalf.  I cannot
see these personages being thus restricted.  Or do you envision that
the Last Ship first stops off at Tol Eressea, Cirdan announces  
"Mortals ashore, only immortals can continue beyond these parts,"
the hobbits jump off, and the rest continue on their merry way.

A little less flippantly, does anyone recall whether Tol Eressea
was included in the restriction on the Numenoreans: ie, were they
forbidden from landing there as well as landing at Valinor
proper?

>
>I thought the exception was made for Bilbo, Frodo and Sam because they 
>had been ring bearers (I don't know about Gimli).  What I've always
>wondered though, is if this was really an exception granted by the Valar 
>as a reward for the sacrifice and hardship that they endured as ring 
>bearers or whether, after possessing the Ring, they were truly immortal
>creatures now so there is no exception being made at all.

I think it is fairly clear that the longevity granted by the ring
ends with the end of the ring.  Compare Bilbo at the Council of Elrond,
still a pretty perky hobbit, if getting on a bit, to Bilbo only a
year later at the return of Frodo to Rivendell.  At that time, 
he has definitely grown senile.  Note also Arwen's words to
Frodo at the start of "Many Partings" in ROK:  (Frodo says he 
was "grieved when among all the household of Elrond I saw
that [Bilbo] was not come."  Arwen: "Do you wonder at that,
Ring-bearer?  ... For you know the power of the thing which is
now destroyed; and all that was done by that power is now passing
away.  But your kinsman possessed this thing longer than you.  He
is ancient in years now, according to his kind, and he awaits you,
for he will not again make any long journey save one."

I have always thought that the time you held the ring did not count
against your age: add the time before you had the ring to the time
after you had the ring to get the equivalent age.  After the 
destruction of the ring, however, the rules change, and those years
start to count again.  This would work well in Bilbo's case, and
would just barely work for Gollum (yes, it had been a long time
since he lost the ring, but he was a young hobbit when he first
got it and hobbits are awfully long lived.  Figure an equivalent
age of eighties or nineties for Gollum in LOTR - a bit old, but
not prohibitive for a hobbit).
From: damiens@cco.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Gift of Men (was Free Will)
Date: 21 Jan 1993 23:36:27 GMT
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
NNTP-Posting-Host: punisher.caltech.edu

In article <1993Jan21.131049.12432@ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM> cannell@churchill.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM (Eric.Cannell) writes:
>In article <16JAN199302241398@juliet.caltech.edu> waynebro@juliet.caltech.edu (Broughton, Wayne Jeremy) writes:
>>One thing that I am surprised nobody seems to have mentioned yet on this
>>thread is the gift to Men, the Freedom of Iluvatar.  This section of the
>
>OK...let us begin a new thread...what exactly is the Gift of Men?
>
>I used to think that the Gift of Men was the chance to die *or* the 
>ability to leave the Circles of the World after death.
>
>Now, I am thinking that the Gift of Men also includes the free will
>to choose between good and evil. Note that elves, orcs, and the like
>are portrayed as being totally good or evil. They are not capable of
>being otherwise (no flames regarding Feanor please...).
>
	Tolkien isn't entirely consistent here, or clear, especially 
with respect to the elves who do seem to choose evil on rare occaisions
(Kinslayings, people?)  But he is clear in one part of the Silmarilion:
the Gift of Men was to be able to break Doom and do things not encompassed
by the Music of the Ainur.  Because Eru knew many men would not use this
power wisely he ordained that they would not live long and that their souls
would leave Ea, not remain in it like elves or Ainur.  This 'final death'
was itself regarded as a great gift by the Immortals later on, when they were
weary of the world.
		-- Phoenix -- Damien R. Sullivan  [X-) Kiljoy]
6x9=42 | AIXELSYD | 1374245896=4 | Libertarian Dictatorship
Honk if you're American and have heard of Steeleye Span... 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: damiens@cco.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: The ARKENSTONE
Date: 21 Jan 1993 06:34:43 GMT
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: punisher.caltech.edu

In article <1993Jan20.014144.14531@midway.uchicago.edu> mss2@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>
>	I think that if Thranduil, who had spent the First Age in
>Doriath, had seen a Silmaril in the hands of a halfling of
>Middle-Earth, he would have considered it worthy of comment over and
>above the value of the Arkenstone itself.  Since he didn't, I  can't
>really give the theory much weight.  
	A good point, although this is the _Hobbit_ we're talking
about here.  Along with Thranduil Gandalf would recognize a Silmaril
(if he couldn't just _tell_ he would surely have seen them in Valinor 
at some point..)

After all, there are more
>precious stones in the earth than the one remaining Silmaril, and the
	Come again?!!?  This is the SILMARIL!  Containing the last light
of the Two Trees in pure form (leave the Sun and Moon out of this), and
which is of a type with the Morning/Evening/Messenger/whatever star, 
Earendil. (I'm not saying that the Arkenstone==the Silmaril, just 
poiniting out that there WOULDN'T be any stone more valuable.)

		-- Phoenix -- Damien R. Sullivan  [X-) Kiljoy]
6x9=42 | AIXELSYD | 1374245896=4 | Libertarian Dictatorship
Honk if you're American and have heard of Steeleye Span... 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
		-- Phoenix -- Damien R. Sullivan  [X-) Kiljoy]
6x9=42 | AIXELSYD | 1374245896=4 | Libertarian Dictatorship
Honk if you're American and have heard of Steeleye Span... 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: alderson@cisco.com (Rich Alderson)
Subject: Re: Alatar and Pallando
Originator: alderson@leland.Stanford.EDU
Reply-To: alderson@cisco.com (Rich Alderson)
Organization: Cisco Systems (MIS)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 93 19:20:20 GMT

In article <#wg3#g#@rpi.edu>, schere@aix (Mithrandir) writes:
>Sparked by the sudden interest in the two Ithryn Luin, I did a little digging.
>The two Wizards were named Alatar and Pallando.  When the Maiar were asked
>who would go to Middle Earth to battle Sauron with a considerable handicap
>(weaknesses of the flesh), only two came forward.  Curumo (Saruman) sent
>by Aule and Alatar who was sent by Orome.  Manwe wanted to send
>Olorin but Olorin was not at the council.  He slunk in late and sat at the 
>back, but Manwe called him forward and bade him go.  Yavanna begged (!) 
>Curumo to take Aiwendil (Radagast) and Alatar took Pallando as a friend.

Source citation would be good.

>I guess Saruman always disliked Radagast.
>
>A few comments:  Alatar can be translated as The Radiant.  Pallando is
>less clear, palan- is a Sindar root meaning far away or broad.  The fact that
>Alatar took Pallando as a friend could mean they were some how a couple, as
>a previous post had suggested.  This could be the first Maia-Maia romance
>we've heard of, eh?
>
>'The Radiant' is more likely a female name.  If so, it is interesting that
		  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>'she' was chosen by Orome.  Interesting that the female is discussed
>more and seems more important.  Against the 'Eowyn' discussion that was 
>flying around for a while.

Why?
-- 
Rich Alderson   'I wish life was not so short,' he thought.  'Languages take
                such a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about.'
                                                        --J. R. R. Tolkien,
alderson@leland.stanford.edu                              _The Lost Road_
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: elana@agora.rain.com (Elana Beach)
Subject: Tolkien LP
Organization: Open Communications Forum
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 18:14:22 GMT

I have an LP entitled:  "J.R.R. Tolkien Reads and Sings His 'The Lord Of The
Rings', 'The Two Towers''Return Of The King'.  The label is Caedmon and the
catalog number is TC 1478.  Looks like it's copyright 1975.

Just curious.  Is this thing rare?

E.



Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: grieder@ee.umanitoba.ca (Warren Grieder)
Subject: Re: Second Prophecy of Mandos
Keywords: There aren't any
Organization: Elect & Comp Engineering, U of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Manitoba,Canada
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1993 21:18:15 GMT

I believe the actual text of the Second Prophecy is close to the following:

"When the world is old and the powers grow weary,
then Morgoth seeing that the guard sleepeth,
shall come back through the Doors of Night and shall destroy the Sun and Moon.
But Earendel shall descend upon him as a white and searing flame,
and shall drive him from the heavens, thus shall the last battle be gathered
on the fields of Valinor.  On that day Tulkas shall strive with Morgoth, and on
his right shall be Fionwe Urion, son of Manwe, and on his left shall be Turin Turumbar,
come from the Halls of Mandos.  And the Black Sword of Turin shall deal unto Morgoth
his death and final end, thus shall the children of Hurin and all men be avenged.

Then the world shall be unmade and the Silmaril shall be recovered from Earth and Water
and Air for Earendal shall give up the one that is in his keeping.  The Feanor shall
bear the three unto Yavanna Palurien and she shall break them and with their light
shall the two tree be rekindled, and in their light shall the Gods and Elves grow
young again, and all of their dead shall rise. But of the Men in the final days
the Prophecy of Mandos says nothing and no man it names, save Turin only, and he
is numbered among the Gods."

This comes from one the first 4 volumes of Christopher Tolkiens commentaries
on his father's works (either Lost Tales 1 & 2, or the next two books, I don't
recall their titles offhand), I don't have the books handy to refer to them
so their may be some errors in the passage.

+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Warren S. Grieder       |Department of Electrical and Computer Engineering |
|grieder@ee.umanitoba.ca |Faculty of Engineering                            |
|                        |University of Manitoba                            |
|                        |Winnipeg, MB                                      |
|                        |CANADA                                            |
|                        |R3T 2N2                                           |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
|String Theory:  It helped close the gap between relativity and quantum     |
|mechanics.  It postulates that subatomic particles are not points, but     |
|strings, about one Planck length long. The rate at which strings vibrate   |
|can generate the properties of all known particles.                        |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
  
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: jchokey@leland.Stanford.EDU (James Alexander Chokey)
Subject: Re: Language Origins
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 93 16:08:23 GMT

In article <1993Jan21.113334.1048@odin.diku.dk> klaus@diku.dk (Klaus Ole Kristiansen) writes:
>jchokey@leland.Stanford.EDU (James Alexander Chokey) writes:
>

>>	I'm not a linguist, so there may be no basis at all to what I say here,
>>but I think there are reasons to suspect that Tolkien partially derived 
>>Dwarven language from Hebrew.  I'm thinking particularly the "Ben-Adar" part
>>of the Dwarves name for Tom Bombadil 
>
>Khuzdul is semitic in structure. The consonant-combination kh-z-d means
>dwarf. Words such as dwarf (khazad) and dwarven (khuzdul) are made by adding
>wovels (and the occasional consonant). Semitic languages work in that way
>too.
>
>But Iarwain ben-adar is Sindarin, not Khuzdul. It means oldest and
>fatherless. Since adar "father" is well known from other bits of
>Sindarin, ben must mean without.
>

	OOPS!  Thanks for pointing this out--  boy, do I feel like a bonehead!
The Dwarves name for Bombadil was "Forn."

	--  Jim C. <jchokey@leland.stanford.edu>

Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: lscottmills@mta.ca
Subject: Re: Music based on the ring
Reply-To: lscottmills@mta.ca
Organization: Mount Allison U, Sackville, N.B. Canada 
Distribution: alt.fan.tolkien
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 20:32:27 GMT

>
>Anybody know of anymore Tolkien references by Led Zeppelin?
>
>Tim Brennan   timster@brahms.udel.edu

I can't recall any more LZ references, but I can tell you about some music.  A
professor of Music at Mount Allison University in Sackville, NB, Canada has
recorded and released a CD entitled "Songs of Middle Earth".  The project was
done with the approval (and in fact blessing) of the Tolkien estate, and is
worth checking out.  

If you're interested, I can supply you with an address for Dr. Stark.  I expect
it is not readily available in your local music store.
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: lscottmills@mta.ca
Subject: Re: Hobbits, again
Reply-To: lscottmills@mta.ca
Organization: Mount Allison U, Sackville, N.B. Canada 
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 20:24:45 GMT

In article <C15usE.31v@sci.kun.nl>, wimjan@sci.kun.nl (Wim-Jan Hilgenbos) writes:
>
>On Tom Bombadil.
>I seem to recall a statement (Unf. Tales ?) that Tom Bombadill was a maiar 
>who stayed behind when the Valar and Maiar retreated from the world. Something
>about him not wanting to leave the land he loved behind.
>
>Hope this helpes the discussion somewhat on.
>
>						Wim-Jan

I have just finished re-reading the chapter on Tom Bombadil.  Frodo asks
Goldberry "Who is Tom Bombadil"  and she replies that "he is".  She then
elaborates a bit and says that he has been here "from the beginning" and that
he remembers the very beginnings of Middle Earth.  That would seem to predate
him to both the Valar and Maiar.  My impression is that he is the embodiment of
the physical earth, but I may be reading far more into it than I should.

Lynda
From: dzik@access.digex.com (Joseph Dzikiewicz)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Hobbits in the Undying Lands
Date: 26 Jan 1993 12:09:57 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.com

In article <jjonsson.347@alexandria.lib.utah.edu> jjonsson@alexandria.lib.utah.edu writes:
>
>My impression has always been that the Undying Lands are more than likely 
>just a metaphor for some sort of paradise or heaven. After all, they 
>separated physically from Middle Earth at some point late in the second or 
>early in the third age of the sun. (Wasn't it after the Numenorean attack? 
>Someone check me on this.)

That works for me in the context of LOTR.  In fact, that's how I viewed
it on my first reading of LOTR (a few years before the Silmarillion 
was published).  However, it does not work in the greater context of
Middle Earth as described in the Silmarillion.  

I don't think this necessarily has to be a case where there is a
discrepancy between the different books.

(Incidently, I prefer the more poetic view of the voyage to the
Undying Lands being effectively moving to heaven.  I just don't
think that this squares with the Silmarillion, wherein the Undying
Lands are a definite place and not just a metaphor.)



Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: alderson@cisco.com (Rich Alderson)
Subject: Re: Subcreation (was Re: Hobbits)
Originator: alderson@leland.Stanford.EDU
Reply-To: alderson@cisco.com (Rich Alderson)
Organization: Cisco Systems (MIS)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 93 15:53:13 GMT

In article <samw.727937271@bucket>, samw@bucket (Sam Warden) writes:

>And I didn't mean to belittle the literary history, even though I was mistaken
>about it.  One reason has occurred to me: I've probably never read the
>unrevised Hobbit!  I've only read the Houghton-Mifflin and Ballantine
>editions, which I think were revised post-LOTR.

(Of course, hasn't HM always been the American publisher? :-)

You should lay hands on _The Annotated Hobbit_, in which differences in
readings between the original and revised editions are noted, including the
complete text of the story of Bilbo and Gollum where it diverged (revised
edition text in the chapter _Riddles in the Dark_, original in 2 long notes in
the back).
-- 
Rich Alderson   'I wish life was not so short,' he thought.  'Languages take
                such a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about.'
                                                        --J. R. R. Tolkien,
alderson@leland.stanford.edu                              _The Lost Road_