From: ghg@en.ecn.purdue.edu (George Goble)
Subject: Re: Concern For Ozone Depletion Clear, Knowledge of CFCs Mostly
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 92 19:18:59 GMT

In article <1733@airgun.wg.waii.com> miller@hmsp04.wg3.waii.com (Griff Miller X7114) writes:
>In article <1992Dec25.232107.3357@en.ecn.purdue.edu> ghg@en.ecn.purdue.edu (George Goble) writes:
>>In article <1713@airgun.wg.waii.com> miller@hmsp04.wg3.waii.com (Griff Miller X7114) writes:
>
>>I have seen A/C hoses on a 4 year old Dodge Omni which
>>had turned to powder and crumbled in your hand.  Somebody trying to save
>>a few cents someplace.
>
>Those plastic liquid lines? Ugh.

Actually they are rubber, about 1 inch diameter.

>
>>"green" O-Ring + self-sealing refrigerant (GHG R-12 substitute, sealant
>
>Yeah, I've heard of your R12 substitute. I'm interested to hear more. It's
>nice to know that it can be used in existing R12 systems.

I will email you the info.. anybody else wanting info, mail me
(ghg@purdue.edu), it is approx 1500 lines long.  It is in approx 1800
cars now, both regular and self-sealing versions.  One company has
found it "drop-in" substituted in R-500 equipment with no changes as well.

>
>>If you don't mind 1.5 lbs of hydrocarbons in your A/C system, one can
>
>I'm no chemist. Why might I mind?

hydrocarbons are flammable!  1.5lbs of hydrocarbons (propane/isobutane)
is approx equal 3lbs of "Freon-12", since they have lower mol weights.
I removed the propane/isobutane charge after 3 months, since people
here were afraid my car would blow up and level the parking garage!
Public hysteria remembers the Hindenburg and the Pinto blowing up.

The auto industry and MACS (Mobile Air Conditioning Society) are using
this hysteria right now to try to get the EPA to ban refrigerant blends
which have even TINY ( <10% ) amounts of flammable components, even though
the overall blend cannot be made to burn.  They want to test hose leakage
with "10% mineral oil present", but they want the flammability tests
done with "no oil".  It turns out that all refrigerants burn from 
a ruptured A/C system due to the 10% oil they bring out, which becomes
highly atomized, burns just like gasoline.  I just gave the EPA a 
picture of me releasing a 3 pound charge of Freon-12 (back in 1991
when it was still "legal" to do so), mixed with 10% compressor oil,
and lighting it on fire. It made a 15 foot long jet of fire which
self sustained.  This is what is in your car now.. no problems in
the real world.  That 20 gal gasoline, hot oil, brake fluid, are all
there and thousands of people do not burn to death in every little
accident.... so what is wrong with 1.5lbs of hydrocarbons in an A/C
system?  Nothing... except that it does not make anybody any money
to recharge your system.  The materials cost to recharge an A/C
with propane/isobutane is around $.50.    Current "ozone safe" (but high
global warming) R-134a A/C owners, are reportedly being charged
upwards of $300 for a "simple" A/C recharge.   Freon-12 (before
taxes and controls is only about $.50/lb, R-134a is around $10.00/lb
wholesale, which gets marked up to $30/lb when the auto dealers
see it, and as high as $100/lb before the customer sees it.
Before the ozone-mess, $.50/lb Freon-12 would only become
$5/lb undergoing the same 10X "percentage" markup, with a total
of "$15" for the "Freon" part of an A/C recharge.

All the hands in the pie got their 10X markup (on Freon-12), and the 
consumer was happy also.  The Ford Dealer here wants $1000 for a 30lb jug
of R-134a!  Soak the public.  MACS/EPA now has the consumer out
of the A/C loop, so he has to just set there and take it for the
most part.  30lbs of "propane/isobutane" refrigerant would only
cost $10 or less.
>
>>use 79% propane, 21% isobutane (by weight) as a drop-in substitute for
>>Freon-12 (CFC-12) in your auto-A/C.. I ran a car that way for 3 months,
>>no problems.  
>
>No worries about the existing refrigerant oil?

Existing mineral oil is miscible with hydrocarbons (each dissolves in the
other), which is required for proper operation.

>
>> Look at that 20 gals of gasoline on the tank.
>
>Eh?
>
>>73% propane, 27% isobutane, but hey, it is close 'nuff.  Don't use
>>straight propane, or the pressures will be too high.
>
>So what are the cons? I imagine that combination is a tad flammable.

See above.. doesn't make anybody any money.

>--
>Griff Miller > miller@monarch.wg3.waii.com < use this for email.
>
>          *** My opinions are mine, not Western's. ***
>
>   "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge, but 
>    fools despise wisdom and discipline."   - Proverbs 1:7 


--ghg