From: lambert@spectrum.cs.unsw.oz.au (Tim Lambert)
Subject: Re: Andy Freeman vs Random House Dictionary (was: Nabbing a car thief)
Organization: CS&E, Uni of NSW, Australia
	<LAMBERT.92Dec15034420@nankeen.spectrum.cs.unsw.oz.au>
	<1992Dec14.201706.18424@mtu.edu>
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 12:13:19 GMT

>>>>> On Mon, 14 Dec 1992 20:17:06 GMT, cescript@mtu.edu (Charles Scripter) said:
> (Tim Lambert) writes:

>>(Charles Scripter) said:
>> > (Andy Freeman) writes:
>> >> The dictionary's
>> >> definition is wrong BECAUSE usage does define meaning and the usage is
>> >> "guns owned by niggers".
>> 
>> > An interesting (and correct) concept, Andy.  

>> 3. Charles discovers that Websters gives the same definition as Random
>>    House.  Check.

> Interesting...  That wasn't what I found.  The definition someone posted
> from Random House was:

>>>  The 1984 (latest edition) of the Random House dictionary defines
>>> Saturday Night Special as "a cheap, small caliber handgun that is
>>> easily obtainable" of whiich there are many around. 

> Webster's: "[From their use in weekend crime] and small, cheap,
>             short-barreled handgun that is readily available [SLANG]"

> No mention of small caliber there...  And Webster's points out that
> the definition is considered *slang*.

There are two minor points where the definitions differ:
small vs small-caliber: these tend to occcur together, so this is a
small difference.
slang vs not-slang:  When was your Webster's published?  These days
dictionaries tend not to use labels like "slang" since just means that
the usage is "informal" and there is no objective way to determine
this.  Also words considered slang twenty years ago are often not
considered slang today.

>  True, they didn't mention
> "niggers", but then that would be politically incorrect to claim
> that was the origin of the definition.

Webster's definition does not agree with Andy at all, but that's
because they were being "politically correct", not because Andy is
wrong.  I see.

>> 4. Charles concludes that Andy is right and Random House is wrong.  Whee!

> Andy is correct, as the definition is not widely accepted.

So every other word in the Random House dictionary that Webster's says
is slang is also incorrectly defined?

>> It
>> didn't agree with him, but still you concluded that he was right.
>> Notice that what the dictionary actually says is irrelevant to your
>> conclusion that Andy is right.

> False, the Webster's says it's *slang*, and any such definition is
> not widely accepted; The conclusion that can then be drawn is that
> Random House is wrong, since they have claimed the definition *is*
> accepted (it can't be construed as widely accepted if Webster's
> doesn't accept it).

So every other word in the Random House dictionary that Webster's says
is slang is also incorrectly defined?

>> Since
>> "slang" does not mean that the definition is not unique or widely
>> accepted, the answer to your question is NO.

> The answer is YES.

> Webster's:

> slang: [1) and 2) refer to jargon, and shop talk]
>   "3) colloquial language that is outside of conventional or standard
>    usage and consists of both coined words and those with new or extended
>    meaings: slang ... generally either passes into disuse or comes to have
>    a more formal status."

> Words with non-conventional or non-standard meanings are words whose
> meanings are not widely accepted.

You don't understand the definition.  Here's what my dictionary says
 "language differing from standard or written speech in vocabulary and
  construction, involving extensive metaphor, ellipsis, humorous
  usage, etc., less conservative and more informal than standard speech,
  and sometimes regarded as being in some way inferior"

>> Since you claim that a SNS is a handgun used by a black, this is

> Nope, I didn't claim that.  You should try to keep your facts straight.
> We know it's easier to demolish your opponent's stance if you can put
> words in their mouth, but I suggest you address the issue I presented.

> I agreed with Andy's point about Random House being wrong.  I didn't
> necessarily agree to SNS's only being used by "niggers".

Really?  Here it is again:

>> >> The dictionary's
>> >> definition is wrong BECAUSE usage does define meaning and the usage is
>> >> "guns owned by niggers".

>> > An interesting (and correct) concept, Andy.  


>> irrelevant.  Now if you could demonstrate that Walther PPKs were owned
>> exclusively by blacks, you would be on to something.

>> > Now, Tim, what exactly is a "Saturday Night Special"?...
>> 
>> a cheap, small caliber handgun that is easily obtainable

> Define "cheap", define "small caliber", and define "easily obtainable".

If I want to play the "Infinite Sequence of Questions" game I can play
with my four year old, thank you.

Tim