Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.movies
Subject: Re:  Alien biology
From: alien@acheron.amigans.gen.nz (Ross Smith)
Date: 10 Nov 92 12:50:40 GMT+12
Distribution: world
Organization: Wanganui Amigans, Wanganui, NZ

In article <74102@hydra.gatech.EDU> ccoprdj@prism.gatech.EDU (Jorge Diaz) writes:
>In article <alien.00vs@acheron.amigans.gen.nz*> alien@acheron.amigans.gen.nz (Ross Smith) writes:
>
>*>   Now that I've made it clear that this should only be read by people
>*>interested in a rational discussion of Alien biology, we can continue.
>*>Please keep in mind that this is just my suggestion for how the Aliens
>*>live, based partly on the movies, partly on the Dark Horse comics, and
>*>partly on pure speculation.  If anyone has any different ideas, share them
>*>with us!
>
>OK, sounds good.  Nothing wrong with speculation, nor with using outside
>references (like the Dark Horse comics).  However, I hope you won't mind
>if I do the same and make references to cut scenes that appear on the
>LD.  After all, if the LD cannot be considered 'canon' then, I don't
>see how the DH comics can be.  Not saying that they are not a valid source
>of info, I just want to make sure it's OK to discuss *everything*.

Fine by me. I like to count the DH comics as "sort-of-canon" for two reasons
-- one, they're bloody good stories, and two, they provide a lot more
background info, giving me a wider base for speculation, which makes it more
fun. All IMHO, of course :-)

>*>   When people hear "hive creature", they tend to think of the simplest
>*>possible hive system :  a single queen who does all the reproducing, and a
>*>whole lot of workers who are sterile (I'll get to the question of males in
>*>a minute).  This is the sort of thing we're familiar with from the more
>*>familiar kinds of ants, bees, and termites, but it's certainly not the only
>*>way to organise a hive.  Among Earth's insects, you can find every
>*>imaginable variation on the hive theme, and a few that nobody would have
>*>imagined.
>
>I'd say that the reason most of us think that way is because that's exactly
>what we were supposed to think after watching Aliens.  "So who's laying
>all those eggs?  That would have to be something else, something we haven't
>seen yet."
>
>A little while later, viola!, we've seen it.  I think that it was every
>intention of the director that the Queen be the only fertile member of the
>colony, who lays all the eggs (with or without the help of males, as you
>have pointed out below).

Yeah, but again, we're getting into the question of whether or not the
director's *intentions* should be counted as genuine background info. I say
no, you say yes (I say potato, you say tomato :-) It's a matter of opinion.
Maybe Cameron intended the Aliens to be "simple" hive creatures, but just
because that's what he intended doesn't mean I have to agree.

>*>   In some cases only the queen reproduces, but in others the workers can
>*>lay eggs too.  Sometimes worker eggs develop in the same way as queen eggs,
>*>but in many cases there are restrictions :  in some ants, for example,
>*>workers can lay only male eggs.  In other ants, most worker eggs are
>*>infertile and are used as food for the larvae.  In some wasps, multiple
>*>queens can share the same hive.
>
>I see no problem with this.  In the LD we are shown that the workers
>(warriors?) can also 'lay' eggs.  They don't necessarily lay them, but they
>can create them.  The end result is the same:  the hive can continue without
>a Queen.  The Queen is certainly the more efficient method of producing eggs,
>but she isn't necessary.

Just one point here : what distinction are you making between "laying" eggs
and "creating" them? I don't follow that.

>Without a Queen, it takes two (2) victims to produce one Alien.  One to
>become the egg (and the facehugger), and one to host the new Alien.  With
>a Queen, it only takes one (1) victim to produce the Alien.  The host.  The
>Queen can lay the eggs without a victim (we assume).  This makes it the
>most efficient, because you can get one Alien per host, instead of one
>Alien per 2 hosts.  The result is a hive twice the size.

Why does it take a victim to produce an egg? The Queen simply lays them.
I assume that the Warriors can do the same thing, when they need to.

>*>can be explained if we remember that the first Alien knew it was alone, out
>*>of touch -- possibly forever -- with its Queen, while those in A2 were in a
>*>hive and under the Queen's control.
>
>This is where I disagree with you.  We have no reason to believe that the
>Queen actually controls the Aliens.  I don't know if this is speculation on
>your part, or if you got this from the comics, but I'm sticking to my guns
>here.  There's just no 'canonical' reason to assume that this is true.
>
>I can accept that the Aliens don't eat more easily than I can accept that
>they are all under the control of the Queen (at least we have evidence to
>support the former in all three movies).

We do have evidence that the Queen controls them directly (when she wants
to). In A2, when Ripley and Newt blunder into the Queen's lair, at first the
surrounding Warriors begin to move on them. Then Ripley makes threatening
gestures at the eggs, giving the Queen a meaningful look, and the Warriors
back off, presumably at the Queen's command. Of course it's possible that
they figured it out for themselves, but that's the way it looked to me.
Your mileage may vary, of course :-)

Anyway, please remember that I made it clear at the start that a lot of what
I was going to say was pure speculation on my part. I never claimed that
everything here was suggested by evidence in the movies, or the comics, or
anywhere else. As long as my speculations aren't actually *contradicted* by
the sources, that's good enough for me.

>*>Actually, several of them probably
>*>would, but only one would have survived to adulthood; we know from the DH
>*>comics (especially "Genocide") that there is strictly one Queen to a
>*>planet.
>
>Whoa!  We *know* from the DH comics?  We were told in the DH comics.  Big
>difference.  Just a minor nit, I know.

Should I have said "Given my acceptance of the DH comics as source material,
we know..."? Since I'd already said that I accept the comics, and that
anyone else was free to make different assumptions if they felt like it,
I assumed the qualification went without saying.

>*>   How many Alien castes are there?  We know of three from the movies --
>*>Warrior, Queen, and the one in A3.
>
>Well, this is something that's subject to interpretation, I guess....
>I think the one we saw in A3 was the same as the ones from A1 and A2, except
>that it acted differently because it came from a different host (ie, a dog).
>
>We are told in the LD that the Alien does indeed 'borrow' genetic material
>from its host.  So the Alien in A3 could very well be a typical Alien, just
>like those in the other movies.  It acts the way it does because it comes
>from a dog.

I don't accept this. These are *aliens* we're talking about! It would be an
unbelievable coincidence if their genetic material bore the remotest
resemblance to ours. Their body chemistry is very different to ours; I flatly
refuse to believe that they could possibly "read" the host's DNA. Their
genetic system would have no way to even tell what DNA is.

I think this is a clear case where there is a very good reason *not* to
accept the director's statements as gospel. Ridley Scott obviously doesn't
know the first thing about genetics. He was lucky enough not to show
anything in the movie that couldn't be believed, but just because he put
his foot in his mouth off screen, we don't have to ignore scientific facts
just to suit him.

>*>   One objection to my claim that Warriors can reproduce when they need to
>*>is the DH story "Aliens vs Predator", in which the Predators scatter
>*>Warrior eggs over worlds so that they can have the fun of hunting the adult
>*>Warriors (killing an Alien is an "initiation ritual" for young Predators).
>*>They carefully remove any Queen eggs from the mix so that the infestations
>*>won't get out of hand (except on one occasion, when their source of eggs --
>*>a captive Queen -- outsmarted the egg-sorting machinery and managed to
>*>sneak a Queen egg in among the Warriors).  This suggests that the Predators
>*>know that Warriors can't reproduce.
>
>Or that the guys writing the comics needed a good story, and made it
>up. :-)

That can be said of any of the Alien stories, including the first movie.
It's no objection to accepting the "facts" presented in the story as valid
in the Alien/Predator universe.

>*>   But the Predators don't strike me as being the sort who'd be big on
>*>scientific research.
>
>Scientific research.  Pretty nebulous phrase.  I hope you don't mean
>technological research.  They seem pretty damn big on that. :-)  Not sure
>exactly what you mean by that, so I can't comment on it.

No, I didn't mean technological research; in fact that was exactly my point.
Their technology is advanced, but that doesn't necessarily imply advanced
biological knowledge too. IMHO, the Predators tend to concentrate only on
research that directly benefits their one goal in life (hunting); that
strikes me as consistent with what we know of their psychology.

(Anybody who finds anything flameworthy in the above doesn't know what
IMHO stands for :-)


--
...... Ross Smith (Wanganui, NZ) ...... alien@acheron.amigans.gen.nz ......
             "If there is ever a war between men and machines,
         it is easy to guess who will start it." (Arthur C Clarke)