From: samuels@waldron.Stanford.EDU (Steve Samuels)
Subject: Grovels, Tape Pleas, and Personals (was: Digestifier)
Organization: Psychology Dept, Stanford Univ.
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 92 00:00:04 GMT

In article <1gbtg8INNplu@agate.berkeley.edu> shell@gandalf.Berkeley.EDU (Shelly Culbertson) writes:
>In article <1992Dec12.035716.26299@ucsu.Colorado.EDU> dalton@spot.Colorado.EDU 
>(lizard man) writes:
>>
>>Now that rec.music.phish has gotten so huge, I would strongly suggest
>>that the Digestifier be modified to do a keyword-search and delete on
>>articles containing the words GROVEL, PERSONAL TO, NO PHISH CONTENT,
>>FLAME, TICKETS, LONG and maybe a few others
>
>My personal opinion on this is that, from the number of posts complaining
>about ticket and tape grovels, it has become clear that due to the volume
>involved it is no longer considerate to post such articles to the net.
>... for an individual to post to the entire net
>asking for one particular tape?  I think it's happening way too often.

I understand this is a personal opinion, but I cannot agree with it.
The solution you present (i.e. stop posting) does not address the
protestations, only your problems.  Shelly, you don't worry about not
getting tickets due to your position with the band, other folks don't
have that luxory.  I also cannot support your argument presented later
that basically tells everyone "that's not what the net is for".

>My advice is that we try to focus less on using the net as a source to
>fulfill our material needs (tapes and tickets), and more as a source
>of inspiration where we can share our thoughts and stories.

First of all, this is how the net would best serve YOU, not necessarily
everyone.  One must first get in to a Phish show to have stories and
thoughts.  I can think of no more proper use of a PHISH net than
aquiring tickets and tapes of PHISH.  This is certainly more germane
than posts about yeP, God Street Wine, or Deadheads Against
Discrimination (which I posted).  In fact, acquiring tickets in this
manner seriously undermines scalpers (who are the scum of the Earth).

That doesn't mean there isn't a problem.  The amount of ticket grovel,
single tape requests, and personal messages is increasing exponentially
and is causing many people many headaches, especially if they read the
list in digestified form.  But simply saying that they shouldn't post
seems a bit dictatorial, even though it's just a suggestion.

There may very well be solutions that would address everyone's concerns,
but you'll (plural, as I', addressing the whole community here as well
as Shelly) never find them until you sit down and think about it.  How
can we address the posting problem and yet take care of the concerns of
those who want tapes and tickets?  Off the top of my head I can think of
two or three simple solutions.  First I'll start off with your
suggestion: 

1) People voluntarily stop making such posts.  Problems: is that fair to
them?  Isn't that what this newsgroup is about?  Sets up a reward system
for those that break the rules (i.e. those who request a ticket, may in
fact get one while those who follow the rule surely will not).  May
force people to search for alternate means of acquiring tickets to shows
(i.e. scalpers).  Doesn't allow those who have extras to get rid of them
to a person in the Net community.

2) break the newsgroup down further into r.m.phish.tape/grovels.  This
would educe posting on main line of net, and will not reward those who
break rules, as people can get rid of tickets on a sub-net.  Problems:
only works for those on USENET (i.e. those not getting the digest).  May
not be feasible to create more groups.

3) Have a special e-cache for tickets.  Someone might volunteer a site
(or address) that would stash all ticket requests and ticket extras for
shows, either permanently, for a specific period of time, or rotating
every show, venue, tour, etc.  All requests would be emailed to this
person/site.  When tickets come in, they would be randomly matched to a
request and the to folks given each other's addresses.  Problems:
Potential for corruption (but than that's the case with pretty much
everything here).  More administration means more potential problems.
People unwilling to accept job (unlikely).  

3a) E-cache for tape-lists and traders as well.  Specific site you could
access for those interested in trading.

Regardless of whether you agree wih these answers or not, you will NOT
be able to solve the problem by telling people to stop (look how
successful the multi-billion dollar War On Drugs was), especially when
it's not in their best interest.  Identify the problem from all
perspectives, get together and try to work out a solution that will
satisfy everyone.  You'll be surprised how often this will not only
solve the problem, but also make things better then before.

HammaH
PhD in social psychology (specialty: conflict resolution) expected '93
	anyone know of jobs in business schools near you?
Newsgroups: rec.music.phish