From: michael.polymenakos@factory.com (Michael Polymenakos) 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.europe
Subject: Re: How typical (and pathetic) are the sources Skopjians use
Date: 1 Jan 93 13:34:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Invention Factory's BBS - New York City, NY - 212-274-8298v.32bis
Reply-To: michael.polymenakos@factory.com (Michael Polymenakos) 


Erland (Egg on his face after being astonished to find out that Italy
was not democratic in the 1930's:) writes:

>So dismiss the source if you like. (But I don't find your arguments
>convincing at all.) Now, tell us what's wrong with the French 1900
>encyclopedia which says the same as the Italian one.

 In 1900, your description of Macedonia would have been accurate,
because Macedonians were living in great numbers across Vardar and
Pirin. In many cities of today's Vardar and Buglaria (like Bitola
(Monastiri) and Plondiv (Phillipoupolis)) Greeks outnumbered Slavs by a
wide margin. There were sizable Greek communities as north as Kosovo.

 After 1913, that Macedonia was divided. In a peaceful population
exchange, Greeks in the north departed for the south, and slavs in the
south departed for the north. Like in many cases where there was a shift
in borders and population, the name "Macedonia" can no longer be used to
describe Vardar, now that the Macedonians have left. Can Belarus name
itself "Poland"? Can Poland name itself "Prussia"? Can Slovenia call
itself "The Austohungarian Empire"? Can Vardar name itself "Macedonia"?

 The population exchange took place in 1913. It is old news. Greece does
not make any territorial claims today against Bulgaria or Bardar based
on pre-1913 population figures. But Vardar is talking about "millions of
[Slav]Macedonians living in Greece", "illegal partition of Macedonia",
etc. etc. Why are they reviving a problem that, as far as Greece is
concerned, was solved by the 1913 population exchanges?

 They are talking about name-changes in Greece after 1913. Yes that did
happen. That's the whole point about a population exchange. Greek cities
in Vardar and Pirin bacame Serb/Bulgarian, and Serb cities in Greece
became Greek. (Actually it was not a matter of changing names, but
of making official the use of Greek names, as opposed to Slavic
ones. Cities that had no popular Greek names, like Kilkis, Servia, Skra,
Florina still have Slavic names. Why would the Greeks "rename" any
cities, yet not rename the large city of Kilkis? Why would they, after
1913, name a newly formed province "Kilkis"?). That happened in 1913
with the cooperation of Greeks and Slavs. It was the only alternative
to a Bosnia-style conflict where Serbs want control of all
Serb-inhabited areas, and moslems want control of all moslem-inhabited
areas, and Croats, and there is so much suffering as a result.

 You are talking about "hellenization" of Slavophones in Greece. Part of
the population exchange agreement was that each family could decide for
themselves where they wanted to go, and what nation they belonged to.
Greece had absolutely no reason to force non-Greeks to stay in Greece,
when there was an agreement for their departure. Do you have any proof
that persons wishing to exit Greece in 1913 were denied that right?

 Those who stayed did so because they felt Greek, even though some of
them spoke Bulgarian or Serbian. In fact many Slavophones from Bulgaria
and Serbia took advandage of the population exchange to come to Greece.
They identified with Greece either because they were members of Greek
churches (There were many Slavophone Greek churces pre-1913, for those
who had refused to join the church of Bulgaria) or because they knew by
tradition that their families where Greek, or for any other reason.

 By volunteering to migrate to Greece, (or to stay in Greece if they
were already there), Greek Slavophones joined the Greek nation. This is
the very reason why integration of these people proved to be very easy
and very quick. Bulgaria has tried hard for years to Bulgarise its
Moslem population, Albania is doing that for its Greek population, and
Turkey is doing that for its Kurd population. But these minorities
remain, because people tend to resist any 'nationalisation' effort made
against their wishes. Yet looking for "Slav Macedonians" in Greece today
one needs a microscope. The Slavs have identifies three or four people
by name who claim to be "Macedonians", but they always use pre-1913
figures when making claims for larger populations. And now, Vardaris
who came to Greece after WWII to escape Tito's regime, (most of whom
testified in court that they were Greeks in nationality, in order to be
allowed to leave Yugoslavia and become Greek citizens) are used to
further claims against Greece.

 Greece did not need to hellenize its Slav speakers, because they felt
Greek. Language cources were offered, but there was never any need to
use force or threats to oblige people to attend. There was never any
prohibition against the use of a non-Greek language (contrary to Turkey
where the Kurdish language is completely banned, and Bulgaria where
Turkish is banned in public displays).

The fact that there was no Hellenisation of Slavs and Turks in Thrace
(that was not a part of the population exchange) further proves the
point.

Michael