From: brandon@husc10.harvard.edu (joshua 'yaz' brandon)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Ownership of England
Date: 6 Apr 92 16:05:32 GMT
Article-I.D.: husc3.1992Apr6.120534.10764
Organization: Harvard University Science Center

This thread has been going on the herald's list, but someone pointed out it
would be better here.  This is a summary of the last several messages...
(Sorry about the length....)
				---Simon
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date:         Sat, 4 Apr 1992 23:42:00 EST
From: SPACEY@NORTHEASTERN.EDU

As I recall, the king of England was a vassal of the King of France and
thus, France was really lending England (and frequently a whole lot of
France along with it) to the English king.  And, beyond that I believe
that at various times, France was actualy a vassal of the Emperor.
Now that is feudalism for you.  Beyond that, is there any real posibility
of enfiefing someone with an AoA.  I strongly think that we should be
doing this.  Lord Sebastian says that this would probably violate Corpora.
Is this really true?  How can I find out?  Further, if COrpora needs to
be changed to do this, then why not change Corpora?  As I have already
pointed out, enfiefment does not need to carry any governmental perogatives.

                                                Solveig Throndardottir
                                                (The totally ignorant)
Date:         Sun, 5 Apr 1992 04:23:51 EDT
From: "Montgomery J. Moose" <atterlep@LEPUS.ACS.OAKLAND.EDU>

Solveig writes:

}As I recall, the king of England was a vassal of the King of France and
}thus, France was really lending England (and frequently a whole lot of
}France along with it) to the English king.

  Well, yes and no.  The King of England (at the time of the Hundred Year's
War, at least,) was also the Duke of Aquataine (or one of the other French
duchies.)  So, while the King of England did swear fealty to the King of France
for his French holdings, he was also the independent ruler of England.
  Fealty seems strange, but mainly because we associate it with our ideals of
chivalry.  It seems to have been much more of a business arrangement than
anything else.

                                --Fairfax

Date:         Sun, 5 Apr 1992 11:39:00 EST
From: SPACEY@NORTHEASTERN.EDU

Ahh.  But remember that there are pleanty of historical complicatons.
William originally aquired a license from the Pope to conquer England
(or so I recall) so in that instance, the King of England was to owe
fealty to France through Normandy.

                                        Solveig Throndardottir
                                        (The totally ignorant)

Date:         Sun, 5 Apr 1992 10:47:00 EDT
From: Roadster Racewerks <trifid@AGORA.RAIN.COM>

Didn't the king of France (well, proto-France) send William off with blessings
and minor assistance because he expected William to conquer it for France?

(Pretty silly of him, in hindsight...although Henry got away with sending
Strongbow off to conquer Ireland, sorta. Only took the crowna few centuries..;-)

Moreach

Date:         Sun, 5 Apr 1992 21:04:15 EDT
From: "Montgomery J. Moose" <atterlep@LEPUS.ACS.OAKLAND.EDU>

Solveig Throndardottir the totally ignorant (not!) writes:

}William originally aquired a license from the Pope to conquer England
}(or so I recall) so in that instance, the King of England was to owe
}fealty to France through Normandy.

  I believe, though, that William divided his lands between his sons, leaving
Normandy to one and England to another.  Thus, the Plantagenet King of England
no longer owed allegiance to France _for England._
  Note that the emphasis is on _for England_ since he still owed allegiance as
a Duke (of Aquataine?)  As far as I understand fealty, the mere fact that the
ruler of England was in fealty to the ruler of France did not mean that England
was part of France.
  I guess it's time for me to do some research...can someone suggest a good
book on fealty?  Alternatively, we might want to move this to the Rialto.

                                --Fairfax

Date:         Sun, 5 Apr 1992 21:49:00 EDT
From: Roadster Racewerks <trifid@AGORA.RAIN.COM>

I vote to move this to the Rialto, too. It's a shame to keep some of these
general discussions to ourselves. Besides, stuff like this might help shut
down the 25 threads on "killing from behind"... ;->