From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,soc.history,soc.culture.turkish
Followup-To: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: One of them is surely nuts: "Sternlight" or "Morning the porn-peddler".
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 93 20:56:59 EST
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world

In article <C0qqEF.8tx@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk> dam@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (David Morning) writes:

>>Now a different view of this scene. Here is the compulsive liar. Rather

>Well, let's just test your theory shall we?

Look who is back? Ran out of the Greek "porno" material at "dcs.glasgow.ac.uk", 
"Morning the porn-peddler"? Let us see what you have hatched this time - shall
we?

>>genocide, tried to complete its centuries-old policy of annihilation against 
>>the Turks and Kurds by savagely murdering 2.5 million Muslims and deporting 
>>an entire people. This event is incontrovertibly proven by historians, 

>>Kazimir, Motayef, Twerdokhlebof, General Hamelin, Rawlinson, Avetis
>                                                   ^^^^^^^^^

>Please indicate where Rawlinson says that Armenians murdered 2.5 million
>Muslims? The page where the figure is stated would be fine.

You want jumper cables? Sure I got jumper cables. Your inability to 
distinguish between the Armenian Genocide of the Muslim people in 
Anatolia (see McCarthy) and the Armenian Genocide of the entire Muslim 
population of x-Soviet Armenia (see Hovannisian) is truly amazing.

Source #1: McCarthy, J., "Muslims and Minorities, The Population of Ottoman 
           Anatolia and the End of the Empire," New York University Press, 
           New York, 1983, pp. 133-144.

Source #2: Hovannisian, Richard G., "Armenia on the Road to Independence,
           1918. University of California Press (Berkeley and Los Angeles),
           1967, p. 13.

As for Rawlinson,

Source: "Adventures in the Near East, 1918-1922" by A. Rawlinson,
Jonathan Cape, 30 Bedford Square, London, 1934 (First published 1923) 
(287 pages).
(Memoirs of a British officer who witnessed the Armenian genocide of 2.5 
 million Muslim people)

p. 184 (second paragraph)

 "I had received further very definite information of horrors that
  had been committed by the Armenian soldiery in Kars Plain, and as 
  I had been able to judge of their want of discipline by their 
  treatment of my own detached parties, I had wired to Tiflis from 
  Zivin that 'in the interests of humanity the Armenians should not 
  be left in independent command of the Moslem population, as, their 
  troops being without discipline and not under effective control, 
  atrocities were constantly being committed, for which we should 
  with justice eventually be held to be morally responsible'."

p. 177 (third paragraph)

 "Armenian troops, who, having pillaged and destroyed all the
  Moslem villages in the plain...."

 "Caravans of refugees were in the meanwhile constantly arriving from the
  plain, from which the whole Moslem population was fleeing with as much of
  their personal property as they could transport, seeking to obtain security
  and protection..."

p. 178 (first paragraph)

 "In those Moslem villages in the plain below which had been searched 
  for arms by the Armenians everything had been taken under the cloak of 
  such search, and not only had many Moslems been killed, but horrible 
  tortures had been inflicted in the endeavour to obtain information as 
  to where valuables had been hidden, of which the Armenians were aware 
  of the existence, although they had been unable to find them."

p. 179 (first paragraph)

 "Shortly afterwards the head of the miserable column appeared. There 
  were in all about 200 persons, mostly old men and women and children, 
  with a few ox-carts, ponies, and donkeys, carrying all their worldly 
  possessions, except a few sheep that they were driving before them. 
  Their leader interviewed Bekir Bey, and was told to keep farther on 
  into the hills, where he would be able to cross the frontier into 
  Turkey unmolested by his enemies."

p. 181 (first paragraph)

 "the Armenians from the plain were attacking the Kurdish line with 
  artillery, with probably a large force in support."

p. 175 (first paragraph)

 "The arrival of this British brigade was followed by the announcement
  that Kars Province had been allotted by the Supreme Council of the
  Allies to the Armenians, and that announcement having been made, the
  British troops were then completely withdrawn, and Armenian occupation
  commenced. Hence all the trouble; for the Armenians at once commenced
  the wholesale robbery and persecution of the Muslem population on the
  pretext that it was necessary forcibly to deprive them of their arms.
  In the portion of the province which lies in the plains they were able
  to carry out their purpose, and the manner in which this was done will
  be referred to in due course.

>>Justin McCarthy, Professor of History, University of Louisville.

>Please indicate where Prof McCarthy states that Armenians murdered 2.5 million
>Muslims?

Let us ask them - shall we?

Source #1: McCarthy, J., "Muslims and Minorities, The Population of Ottoman 
           Anatolia and the End of the Empire," New York University Press, 
           New York, 1983, pp. 133-144.

Source #2: Hovannisian, Richard G., "Armenia on the Road to Independence,
           1918. University of California Press (Berkeley and Los Angeles),
           1967, p. 13.

Source: Hovannisian, Richard G.: Armenia on the Road to Independence, 1918.
University of California Press (Berkeley and Los Angeles), 1967, p. 13.

"The addition of the Kars and Batum oblasts to the Empire increased the
 area of Transcaucasia to over 130,000 square miles. The estimated population
 of the entire region in 1886 was 4,700,000, of whom 940,000 (20 percent) were
 Armenian, 1,200,000 (25 percent) Georgian, and 2,220,000 (45 percent) Moslem.
 Of the latter group, 1,140,000 were Tatars. Paradoxically, barely one-third
 of Transcaucasia's Armenians lived in the Erevan guberniia, where the 
 Christians constituted a majority in only three of the seven uezds. Erevan
 uezd, the administrative center of the province, had only 44,000 Armenians
 as compared to 68,000 Moslems. By the time of the Russian Census of 1897,
 however, the Armenians had established a scant majority, 53 percent, in the
 guberniia; it had risen by 1916 to 60 percent, or 670,000 of the 1,120,000
 inhabitants. This impressive change in the province's ethnic character 
 notwithstanding, there was, on the eve of the creation of the Armenian 
 Republic, a solid block of 370,000 Tartars who continued to dominate the 
 southern districts, from the outskirts of Ereven to the border of Persia." 
 (See also Map 1. Historic Armenia and Map 4. Administrative subdivisions of 
 Transcaucasia).

In 1920, '0' percent Turk. 

 "In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists a single Turkish soul.
  It is in our power to tear away the veil of illusion that some of us
  create for ourselves. It certainly is possible to severe the artificial
  life-support system of an imagined 'ethnic purity' that some of us
  falsely trust as the only structure that can support their heart beats 
  in this alien land."

            (Sahak Melkonian - 1920 - "Preserving the Armenian purity") 

 "The crime of systematic cleansing by mass killing and extermination 
  of the Muslim population in the Soviet Republic of Armenia, Karabag, 
  Bosnia and Herzegovina is an 'Islamic Holocaust' comparable to the 
  extermination of 2.5 million Muslims by the Armenian Government 
  during the WWI and of over 6 million European Jews during the WWII."
                  (Tovfik Kasimov - Azeri Leader - September 25, 1992)
                 
 "Today's ethnic cleansing policies by the Serbian dictatorship against
  Croatians and Muslims of Yugoslavia, as well as the Soviet Republic
  of Armenia's against the Muslim population of neighboring Azerbaijan,
  are really no different in their aspirations than the genocide 
  perpetrated by the Armenian Government 78 years ago against the
  Turkish and Kurdish Muslims and Sephardic Jews living in these
  lands."         (Cebbar Leygara - Kurdish Leader - October 13, 1992)


>[Long list of emminent people deleted]

Poor "mid-morning express".

>..and of course anyone who was on the net last summer couldn't miss the posting
>when David Sternlight telephoned a great many of these historians you say
>supports your claim.......and they all said you were nuts.

Well, according to your hero you are a self-admitted pathological liar. 

#Newsgroups: soc.culture.turkish,talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.soviet,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,soc.history
#From: analyst@netcom.com (David Sternlight)
#Subject: What McCarthy says--phone call from him this morning.
#Message-ID: <y6rla=a.analyst@netcom.com>
#Prof. Justin McCarthy returned my call, and we had a very useful discussion.
#Here's a summary of his views:
#Finally, as a human being I'm appalled at the murders of Turks... 

>Non-existant lists?? I thought that's what you posted.

People will think you are just some looney howling in "dcs.glasgow.ac.uk". 
The Turkish Genocide is incontrovertibly proven by historians, government
and international political leaders, such as U.S. Ambassador Mark 
Bristol, William Langer, Ambassador Layard, James Barton, Stanford 
Shaw, Arthur Chester, John Dewey, Robert Dunn, Papazian, Nalbandian, 
Ohanus Appressian, Jorge Blanco Villalta, General Nikolayef, General 
Bolkovitinof, General Prjevalski, General Odiselidze, Meguerditche, 
Kazimir, Motayef, Twerdokhlebof, General Hamelin, Rawlinson, Avetis
Aharonian, Dr. Stephan Eshnanie, Varandian, General Bronsart, Arfa,
Dr. Hamlin, Boghos Nubar, Sarkis Atamian, Katchaznouni, Rachel 
Bortnick, Halide Edip, McCarthy, W. B. Allen, Paul Muratoff and many 
others.

J. C. Hurewitz, Professor of Government Emeritus, Former Director of
the Middle East Institute (1971-1984), Columbia University.

Bernard Lewis, Cleveland E. Dodge Professor of Near Eastern History,
Princeton University.

Halil Inalcik, University Professor of Ottoman History & Member of
the American Academy of Arts & Sciences, University of Chicago.

Peter Golden, Professor of History, Rutgers University, Newark.

Stanford Shaw, Professor of History, University of California at
Los Angeles.

Thomas Naff, Professor of History & Director, Middle East Research
Institute, University of Pennsylvania.

Ronald Jennings, Associate Professor of History & Asian Studies,
University of Illinois.

Howard Reed, Professor of History, University of Connecticut.

Dankwart Rustow, Distinguished University Professor of Political
Science, City University Graduate School, New York.

John Woods, Associate Professor of Middle Eastern History, 
University of Chicago.

John Masson Smith, Jr., Professor of History, University of
California at Berkeley.

Alan Fisher, Professor of History, Michigan State University.

Avigdor Levy, Professor of History, Brandeis University.

Andreas G. E. Bodrogligetti, Professor of History, University of California
at Los Angeles.

Kathleen Burrill, Associate Professor of Turkish Studies, Columbia University.

Roderic Davison, Professor of History, George Washington University.

Walter Denny, Professor of History, University of Massachusetts.

Caesar Farah, Professor of History, University of Minnesota.

Tom Goodrich, Professor of History, Indiana University of Pennsylvania.

Tibor Halasi-Kun, Professor Emeritus of Turkish Studies, Columbia University.

Justin McCarthy, Professor of History, University of Louisville.

Jon Mandaville, Professor of History, Portland State University (Oregon).

Robert Olson, Professor of History, University of Kentucky.

Madeline Zilfi, Professor of History, University of Maryland.

James Stewart-Robinson, Professor of Turkish Studies, University of Michigan.

.......so the list goes on and on and on.....

Well, anxiously awaiting...

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.'    (Sahak Melkonian)


Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast