HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: pjs269@tijc02.uucp (Paul Schmidt)
Subject: Re: RE: PUBLIC SUPPORTED NETWORK WILL H
Organization: Siemens Industrial Automation, Johnson City TN
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 92 13:08:11 GMT

This topic has strayed from the subject of the newsgroup.  I would suggest
sending me mail if you have any more questions or comments.  
Paul Schmidt - (uunet!tijc02!pjs269)

From article <15911.29E9A2DB@puddle.fidonet.org>, by Mark.Goodman@f485.n101.z1.fidonet.org (Mark Goodman):
> Sorry, but I haven't figured out how to quote from previous messages.
>  You quote from a number of sources to support your argument that unplanned 
>economies work best.  The less planning, the better, it seems.  But finding 
>quotes does not make it true.  And it is certainly _not_ true that the 
>Japanese economy is less planned than that of the United States.

I use quoted material because there are many people that are much smarter and
more knowledgable than me.  You can find writing supporting both sides, so to
evaluate if something is true, you look at the reasons.  The U.S. has less
economic freedom than Japan, from what I have read.  One of the biggies is
capital gains tax.  The countries that have little or no capital gains are
usually experiencing better economic growth.  I have already written that
MITI, who did do alot of planning was unsuccessful, while industries it did
not plan were successful.
>  
> There is one important area where economic planning is essential: the 
> environment.  It is abundantly clear that unfettered markets cannot 
> incorporate the delayed costs from environmental degradation and resource 
> depletion.  It is also clear that unless serious action is taken soon, 
> the planet is headed for collapse.
> 
I agree!  I want a world that I can breath the air and not worry - that I can
drink clean water.  This issue of reason magazine was citing a study that
showed that pollution increased as the standard of living increased and then
at a certain point, pollution decreased.  There are many examples of the
poor countries, with central planning, that have much more pollution than
free countries which resulted in a higher standard of living.  One of the
ways I am working to save the environment is to encourage people to strive
for more freedom.
> 
> uucp: uunet!m2xenix!puddle!101!485!Mark.Goodman
> Internet: Mark.Goodman@f485.n101.z1.fidonet.org

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Paul Schmidt - President        "Freedom seems to have unleashed the
Davy Crockett Chapter:          creative  energies of the  people --
Advocates for Self-Government   and leads to ever  higher  levels of
706 Judith Drive                income and social progress."
Johnson City, TN 37604                         United Nations report
(615)283-0084  --  uunet!tijc02!pjs269
Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk,comp.archives.admin
From: ckd@eff.org (Christopher Davis)
Subject: Re: Information Services Etiquette (was Re: Gopher directories)
Organization: Electronic Frontier Foundation Tech Central
	<1992Apr13.172700.7993@usenet.ins.cwru.edu>
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1992 18:08:51 GMT

 Aydin> == Aydin Edguer <edguer@ces.cwru.edu> 

 Aydin> Distributed information management is a better solution.  But
 Aydin> distribution requires some sort of authority.  This is the idea
 Aydin> behind the domain name server.  And COULD be the idea behind a
 Aydin> resource information server.  It would not involve the entire
 Aydin> network in the control of information flow, but could involve
 Aydin> domain administrators with the control of information flow from
 Aydin> their domains.  This is a good thing.

A reasonable method for doing this within the current DNS has already
come into fairly wide use; the use of CNAMEs on machines to identify
potential "public services."  (The WKS records don't cut it, though
something similar might.)

For example, the machine to my left is officially known as
kragar.eff.org.  However, I suspect very few people actually refer to it
as such; most of them probably think of it as ftp.eff.org, or (in some
cases) wais.eff.org, or (to our news neighbors and Mac newsreader users)
nntp.eff.org.

ftp.uu.net is probably the best known example of this, since that's not
even a CNAME!  And how many people use archie.dom.ain instead of trying
to remember the actual machine names?

One drawback of this is that archie, itself, does not (currently) list
machines by their "preferred CNAME," resulting in people ftp'ing to
"kragar.eff.org" instead of "ftp.eff.org" -- though we might have to
move it, which would confuse people somewhat (the last move did).

However, this convention only helps if you know what domain to look in;
there really does need to be some reasonable central registry of all
this.  Perhaps the folks who compile the ZONE (Zealot of Name
Edification) lists by walking the DNS could be persuaded to toss all the
"ftp.*", "wais.*", and potentially another type or two to an archie-like
project team, who could then contact the administrators and arrange for
cataloging of the resources available.

(Yes, I realize this response only addresses the technical issues,
rather than the social ones; I don't have any good ideas on the social
issues right now!  Maybe later.)
--
Christopher Davis <ckd@eff.org> |    ECONOMIC OBSERVATIONS DEPARTMENT
System Manager & Postmaster     |  "There's always something going out of
Electronic Frontier Foundation  |      business in Central Square."
+1 617 864 0665  NIC: [CKD1]    |   -Rita Marie Rouvalis <rita@eff.org>
Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk
From: douglas@netcom.com (Doug - MIS x7889)
Subject: Re: Forfeiture Laws - "60 Minutes" Story
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 92 00:56:21 GMT
Organization: Approach Software Corp.  Redwood City, CA  94063
Distribution: na

In article <rrrfgINN9l8@agate.berkeley.edu> turrell@violet.berkeley.edu (David Turrell) writes:

>Last Sunday's "60 Minutes" had, as its first segment, a story done by
>Steve Kroft that was both hilarious and disturbing about how people
>who haven't been charged with crimes can be driven to bankruptcy by
>the government through use of the forfeiture laws.

Although I had heard of cases that this has happened via the net, what
was most bothering about the segment was how one of the CBS guys (who
was Black, by the way) bought a ticket from Nashville (?) to Houston
and paid cash for it.  He sat down and waited for the plane to come and
sure enough, after a few minutes to guys came up to him and said "Hey, 
can we have a word with you?"  Had he not shown his CBS ID, he may very
well have been out any "large sums of cash" that he was carrying.

Probably one of the other bad factors was that the police agency that
siezes the cash gets a percentage of it, they showed a clip where 
someone was giving a chief of police a check for about a million dollars
as a percentage of the cash and goods that had taken utilizing the lay,
(law), obviously meant to "put the money back into the war on drugs."

Seems like this would only encourage it.  Gotta have those new guns.

-DM

-- 
Douglas Mason                                    douglas@netcom.COM
Network administration / software development    douglas@netcom.UUCP
Approach Software Corporation                    +1 415.306.7889
From: jandrews@public.BTR.COM (Jerry Andrews  jandrews@btr.com)
Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk
Subject: Re: Police and modem users
Date: 7 Apr 92 05:29:11 GMT
Organization: BTR Public Access UNIX, MtnView CA. Contact: Customer Service cs@BTR.COM

BH> The ones who DO have the time, energy, or interest tend to be either
BH> members of PoliceNet, or to be setting up scams like that "bbs" scam a
BH> few months ago.

I tried tracking this down.  "bbs" scam?

BH>... Does anyone REALLY read these stupid taglines?

Yes...


Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk,misc.legal
From: bobd@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Bob DeBula)
Subject: Re: Illegal photograph postings (was: Your police at work for you!)
Followup-To: comp.org.eff.talk
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1992 13:28:58 GMT

In article <ymXwiB7w164w@lakes.trenton.sc.us> rock@lakes.trenton.sc.us (Rockerboy) writes:
>nazgul@alphalpha.com (Kee Hinckley) writes:
>> So if it doesn't hurt anyone you know then it's okay to condone
>> illegal actions?  Remind me to stay out of South Carolina.
>
>No, what I _think_ is that some of the definitions of "illegal" need to 
>be reaxamined, and if you had followed what I have been saying, you would 
>already know that.
>
>
>"Sometimes what you say is going to fly right in the faces of the 
>powerful people who really run this world, but you don't care...you know 
>it's your place to challenge authority..."
>
>                                          Rockerboy


Say! Isn't this a direct quote from "Rebel without a Clue"?


Sorry, couldn't resist. :-) Actually I agree that some definitions of
"illegal" need to be rethought. When the average citizen can't get
through an average day without violating half a dozen "laws" something
is drastically wrong. However, I don't see the most onerous laws extant
to be in the area of Copyright protection. "Copyright" as a concept needs
to exist in some form or the art of writing/programming will take a dramatic
nosedive to everyones ultimate detriment.
-- 
==========================================================================
              Disclaimer: These are my views, not the U's
Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk
From: ckd@eff.org (Christopher Davis)
Subject: Re: Public supported network will hurt poor
Organization: Electronic Frontier Foundation Tech Central
	<3840@airs.com> <1992Mar31.214934.26001@cfa.harvard.edu>
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1992 22:45:20 GMT

 Dave> == Dave Borden <borden@cfa.harvard.edu> 

 Dave> Certain publicly provided services do benefit everyone including
 Dave> the poor; the aformentioned postal service, schools and roads are
 Dave> a few example.  Would a publicly supported network benefit the
 Dave> poor more than the diverted funds would harm them?  I don't know
 Dave> the answer to that, but I do know that it won't help them unless
 Dave> they can use it.  Is the government also going to provide free
 Dave> terminals to every home in the country?  Very few people living
 Dave> in a ghetto slum and going to spend money on a computer terminal
 Dave> of all things.  I'm not saying that this is necessarily a fatal
 Dave> flaw in the idea, but it something that has to be answered
 Dave> convincingly in order for the "publicly supported network will
 Dave> help the poor" argument to have any validity whatsoever.

I agree that computer terminals, modems, and similar connectivity tools
are pretty low on the list of someone who's worried about making the
rent, putting food on the table, and paying the heating bill.  This is
why putting terminals in public libraries is such a win (assuming, of
course, that the *libraries* can get the funding).

There was a piece in _Newsweek_ recently about giving voice mail
capabilities to homeless people who were trying to find jobs; apparently
the ability to reliably get messages (as opposed to having the shelter
take phone messages, which wasn't terribly reliable) was a big help in
getting a job interview (and, hence, improved their chances of getting a
job).  Electronic mail has the same capacity for "delayed action", and
adds the ability to search a jobs database and send out inquiries all in
one sitting, without having to scribble down addresses, print out stacks
of boilerplate cover letters, and wait for the oh-so-efficient USPS to
get them to their destinations.

Admittedly, I'm biased; I got my current job after e-mailing my resume
in response to a USENET posting, so I know it can happen.  I,
personally, believe it can scale up, given universal accessibility (in
both facilities and interface; let's face it, if everyone had to learn
'rn' to get a job, we'd be in bad shape).
--
Christopher Davis <ckd@eff.org> |    ECONOMIC OBSERVATIONS DEPARTMENT
System Manager & Postmaster     |  "There's always something going out of
Electronic Frontier Foundation  |      business in Central Square."
+1 617 864 0665  NIC: [CKD1]    |   -Rita Marie Rouvalis <rita@eff.org>
Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk
From: pjs269@tijc02.uucp (Paul Schmidt)
Subject: Re: Public supported network will hurt poor
Organization: Siemens Industrial Automation, Johnson City TN
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 92 13:24:37 GMT

From article <1992Apr2.140721.5049@walney.com>, by jpr@walney.com (Jim Rutt):
> I guess I'm curious why the proposition that "public supported
> network will hurt the poor" is so hotly discussed here?  My reaction
> is:  who cares????  It's an overly simplistic analysis to try and decide
> policy strikely on the gorunds of whether it, standalone, hurts the poor.

I guess it is my fault.  I started this discussion.  I got overly excited
when I read Hazlitt's book "Economics in One Lesson" since he did such an
excellant job of explaining how public projects hurt the poor.  Why discuss
it here?  The EFF will help make policy in Washington.  It has supported
public monies to be used for research of the National Public Network (NPN).
My understanding is that the EFF wants this network to be totally private
eventually.  The EFF also supports price regulations (which Hazlitt also
argues lowers the growth of the standard of living.)  At one time, members
of the EFF claimed a public network would help the poor, no matter who
funded it.  I do not know if they have changed their position or not, and
I am not sure if it was individual's opinions, rather than the EFF's.  The
EFF does a great job overall.  On most issues they are needed.  The chain
of events that led me to read Hazlitt's "Economics in One Lesson" started
from the same point as the EFF.  I am talking about "Operation Sun Devil".
This event sent me searching for how this type of injustice could be
prevented in the future.
> 
> If the top half of the economy was helped to the tune of 10%
> and the bottom half hurt to the tune of 1%, it'ld be a major
> net win, and well worth doing.

I want everyone to be better off.  I also believe that raising the average
standard of living will help both the rich and poor as long as no physical
coersion is used to take from one group to give to another.
> 
> Part of the wind fall from an overall richer society could then be
> rerouted to "helping the poor", if one was of the opinion
> that throwing money at social problems was likely
> to do anything about them.
> -- 
> Jim Rutt - Reader's Access Corp - 4124 Walney Rd Suite N - Chantilly, VA 22021
> E-Mail: jpr@walney.com   Voice:  703 631 2638   FAX:  703 631 2656
From: herbison@manage.enet.dec.com (B.J.)
Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk
Subject: Re: Commercial lines?
Date: 7 Apr 92 14:47:11 GMT
Reply-To: herbison@erlang.enet.dec.com
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation, Littleton, MA


In article <wmVRiB4w164w@batpad.lgb.CA.US>, mike@batpad.lgb.CA.US (Mike Batchelor) writes:
>> What I'm wondering is
>> what kind of phone lines you are supposed to order? Does charging for use
>> mean that you have to get business lines? Under what conditions can you get
>> normal non business lines?
>You can usually get residential lines if you don't give the phone
>company any indication that you are charging your users.  ...
>  They asked me if this was for business and
>I said no.

>....  Call your
>phone company, tell them what you want to do, and get quotes on all
>the options available.  Don't tell them you will be charging for use
>of your BBS though.  Tell them it's a hobby and you want the most
>cost-effective set up.

Mike, you are admitting you are a criminal--you made fraudulent claims
in order to cheat your telephone company out of business rates for your
business.  You are also advocating the same tactic for others.

Messages like this (and actions like yours) are helping to give BBSs
(and other individuals who use computers and modems) a bad name.  It
may also have been a stupid idea to send the message--some of the
systems connected to usenet are owned by phone companies.

If you don't like the tarrifs for phone lines, complain to the PUC
or to your legislators.  If you don't think that your BBS should be
considered a business just because you charge, discuss the definition
of business with the PUC and your legislators.

						B.J.
Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk,news.misc,misc.legal,alt.society.civil-liberty
From: kadie@herodotus.cs.uiuc.edu (Carl M. Kadie)
Subject: Re: Lone Star Comics (store in Dallas) bans "Hackers"
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept. of Comp. Sci., Urbana, IL
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1992 18:35:53 GMT

Bill.Hartwell@p0.f99.n121.z1.fidonet.org (Bill Hartwell) writes:

[...]
>Well, I don't know about Texas, but I remember a local gaming shop in
>this small town in Michigan I used to live in that was sued by the
>parents of a kid who bought a copy of AD&D there.  Seems they figured he
>was selling their kid pornography (using the Supreme Court's "community
>standards" definition).  Since the community was made up mostly of
>fundamentalists, the suit went through, too.[...]
[...]

You mean the shop lost? I find this hard to believe. Can you document
list?

- Carl

--
Carl Kadie -- kadie@cs.uiuc.edu -- University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk
Subject: Re: Lone Star Comics (store in Dallas) bans "Hackers"
From: mike@batpad.lgb.CA.US (Mike Batchelor)
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 92 18:48:12 PDT
Organization: The Batchelor Pad

MCMASTER@LSTC2VM.stortek.com (Jim McMaster) writes:

> In article <1992Apr3.170338.14490@m2.dseg.ti.com>
> jmellby@iluvatar.dseg.ti.com (John R. Mellby) writes:
> >
> >Buddy Saunders has decided that Lone Star Comics will not carry the
> >game.
> >
> Why are you so bothered?  He is a private businessman, and has chosen
> not to stock a product.  People can buy it somewhere else.  You have no
> right to pressure him into stocking this stupid-sounding (IMO) game.

What are you talking about?  He has every right to use any kind of
pressure he wants, as long as he stays within the bounds of the law.
He can write letters, picket, boycott, whatever...

And the owner of Lone Star comics has every right to ignore him.



[] ---
[] Mike Batchelor -- mike@batpad.lgb.CA.US -- cerritos.edu!batpad!mike
[] Long Beach, California
[] TNG Quote: "You were travelling in close formation at over 80,000 kph, only
[] 10 meters from Cadet Albert, and you didn't even know his orientation?!?"
From: entropy@yaya (Lawrence C Foard)
Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk
Subject: pictures groups
Date: 8 Apr 92 04:37:00 GMT
Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute

I do think there is a need to do something about copyrighted stuff on the
pictures groups. Actually I'm sure there are enough cute men and women on
the net that people could start making gnu-porn :) If its anything like the
gnu software it will be alot better than whats in the magazines. Of course
you would want someway for the model to stay anonymous and still be able
to verify that they gave permission for the picture to be posted.

I think it would be best not to mix the issues of copyright and censorship,
having copyrighted materials in the groups gives people an excuse to censor
it without having to admit to there real motives. 

If the net is to remain free there is another related issue that must be
addressed, and thats security. Currently there is absolutely no security for
mail and news, this is a rediculous state of affairs since e-mail is being
used more and more for important matters. Not to mention the existance of
sendsys and the ability to forge news means any pimple faced cracker with
constipation can bring down a large number of the machines on the net with
virtually no effort.

I ran into this same situation with mud software, many muds had very
insecure software and relied on wizards acting as police to throw off
people taking advantage of the holes. The solution isn't to make a 
draconian (sp?) system but rather to fix the holes that allow people to
do damage. The police state resulting from insecure mud software was
frequently enough to destroy the mud.

Unfortunitly our friends in the patent office and RSA are doing there best
to make sure the net remains insecure, but I'm sure there are other
approachs to the problem that don't require every network user to pay
"protection" money to RSA.  

I think effective network security should be one of EFF's objectives,
anarchies can only work when every citizen can defend him/herself, this can
be done in cyberspace. 
-- 
Disclaimer: All opinions expressed are 99.44% true.            ------  0<p<1  
Hackers do it for fun.  |  Being Bisexual squares your         \    / therefore
"Profesionals" do it for money. |  probability of not getting   \  / p^2<p and
Managers have others do it for them. |  laid on a saturday night.\/ 1-p^2>1-p 
Xref: sparky comp.org.eff.talk:3334 rec.photo:6738 misc.legal:8905 alt.bbs:3324
From: emv@msen.com (Edward Vielmetti)
Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk,rec.photo,misc.legal,alt.bbs
Subject: Re: Illegal photograph postings (was: Your police at work for y
Date: 6 Apr 92 23:31:30 GMT
Article-I.D.: msen.1992Apr6.233130.14182
Organization: MSEN, Inc. -- Ann Arbor, MI

In article <1992Apr06.074126.14018@clarinet.com> brad@clarinet.com (Brad Templeton) writes:
>It would be extremely difficult to shut down USENET directly.
>
>It would be easy to emaciate it with just a few threats, however.
>You attack not the links, not the network, but the individual big
>companies on it.

If I were the feds and I wanted to shut down USENET, I'd take a big
batch of Federal agents, break into UUNET or PSI headquarters, and bust
up everything I could find.  Then get a judge to make it stick.
(Charge you with something, you'd need to figure out what.)

Not only would that have an immediate direct impact on connections (tho
of course things would heal up as they always do when people get cut off),
but it would also have a chilling impact on all of the smaller businesses
who see what those organizations have done and figure that there's some
money to be made by entering that market.

>-- 
>Brad Templeton, ClariNet Communications Corp. -- Sunnyvale, CA 408/296-0366

Oh yeah, I'd bust up ClariNet too -- you have to be guilty of having
violated some US law at some time, I'll bet...

--
Edward Vielmetti, vice president for research, MSEN Inc. emv@msen.com
      MSEN Inc., 628 Brooks, Ann Arbor MI  48103 +1 313 741 1120