HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: dasher@well.sf.ca.us (D Anton Sherwood)
Subject: Re: Imperial Eagles (was: Byzantine Flags, and Another Question
Organization: Whole Earth 'Lectronic Link
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 07:21:14 GMT

In article <1992Nov22.154529.8881@nntp.hut.fi> c34657b@saha.hut.fi (Tuomas Viljanen) writes:
>
>To make things even more confused, the Kingdom of Prussia was, indeed, never
>a part of the Holy Roman Empire, but its direct predecessor was. Prussia
>was formed from the remnants of the Ordenstaat des Deutsche Ordens (the Baltic
>state of the Teutonic Knights) as it collapsed during the 1560's, and the
>last Hochmeister, Konrad von Hohenzollern, turned the Ordenstaat into his own
>hereditary duchy as the Duchy of Prussia. It became an independent kingdom
>during the 17th century. To remember, the Grand Master of the Teutonic Knights
>was one of the elector princes of the Holy Roman Empire.

Oh?  I thought they were seven:  the archbishops of Trier, Cologne and
Mainz; and the princes of Bavaria, Bohemia, Saxony and Hesse.  Certainly I
never heard that the Grand Master was an elector.
-- 
Anton Sherwood                                          dasher@well.sf.ca.us
    *\\*    Opinions mine, but available for lease at easy terms    *\\*
+1 415 267 0685                 1800 Market St #207, San Francisco 94102 USA
From: uk08745@nx04.mik.uky.edu (randy j yarger)
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
Subject: Re: Tartans...
Date: 22 Nov 92 20:50:07 GMT
Organization: University Of Kentucky, Dept. of Math Sciences

In article <721976645.F00002@ocitor.fidonet>  
Beth.Appleton@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Beth Appleton) writes:
> >original owner of a coat of arms, you're not entitled to use that
> >coat.  Note, however, that this only holds any legal weight in
> >countries which still have some type of governmental heraldic
> >organization (which the US does not).
> 
>  BI> But I believe in Scottish Clans, one has the 
>  BI> 'right' to wear the Tartan.
>  BI> Yes?
>  Yes, but that's an entirely different kettle of fish.  The whole 
>  purpose of the tartan is to denote the whole family and retainers.  You 
>  also get to wear the clan badge, but none of that is equivalent to 
>  the official coat of arms of the family head.
>     I'm a Keith -- I could wear the tartan if I could afford, I have a 
>  clan badge (much cheaper), but I have no claim in the slightest to the 
>  arms of the Earl of (I forget... no claim - no memory) which are 
>  "Argent, a Chief paly or and gules" (I think)....
>      Beth/Gwenllian
> 
>  * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057  
(1:124/4229)
I come from a very scottish family and have even been back to the Isle
of Skye where we are from.  I have my kilt, my clan badge (MacDonald of
Skye/ MacDonald of the Isles) and several instruments such as bagpipes and 
a middle C pipe.  I am extremely proud of my heritage and am a little 
disappointed because i can't wear my things because i am female. The only  
thing that i can wear is a scottish dress with a sash, although I still  
wear
my kilt, my pin and my short kilt jacket all the same.  To any Celtic guys 
out there who think wearing a "skirt" is silly, if youve got the blood,
there is nothing that you could wear that would be sexier than a kilt,
a white shirt, and a jacket.  If you think about it, scottish men are so 
sexy that a kilt doesn't hinder them in the least.
-meredith aka "vixen"
mmhous00@ukpr.uky.edu
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: velde2@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Francois Velde)
Subject: Re: Byzantine Flags, and Another Question
Organization: HAC - Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 17:38:42 GMT

In article <721933845.F00001@ocitor.fidonet> Tim@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Tim) writes:
>
> EO> In the Time-Life series Great Ages of Man, in their book covering
> EO> Byzantium, there was a picture of a monastery in Greece flying what they
> EO> said was the Byzantine flag.  As nearly as I could figure out what it was
> EO> they were flying, it was: 
> EO>    Gules, a two-headed eagle displayed sable.
>
> The two-headed eagle was, so far as I know, primarily associated with the
> Holy Roman (post-Charlemagne western) empire; I know of no instance of its
> use by the Eastern empire.

Not only was it used by the Eastern Empire, it may well be that its adoption
by the Holy Roman Empire (late 14th, early 15th c.) was in imitation of the
Eastern Empire. See Woodward's Treatise on double-headed eagles. And, since
you have Neubecker's book handy, check out his maps that show the use of 
charges like crosses, lions, eagles and fleur-de-lys across Europe. You 
will notice the double-headed eagle Or on a field Gules for Byzantium. 

As I described in my post on Balkanic heraldry, the Byzantine double-headed
eagle was adopted contemporaneously by Serbia (its color changed to Argent).
The 19th and 20th century Balkan states (Serbia, Montenegro, Yugoslavia) also
used the double-headed eagle Argent.

Further evidence can be found in the arms of former imperial families 
that moved to Western Europe or married into Western European families:
look up Lascaris, Paleologue, Comnenos in the Rietstap to find multiple 
variants of the double-headed eagle, often with imperial crown.

-- 

	Francois Velde

Newsgroups: rec.heraldry,rec.org.sca
From: velde2@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Velde Francois)
Subject: Re: Imperial Eagles (was: Byzantine Flags, and Another Question
Organization: HAC - Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 18:18:05 GMT

By the way, I looked up Albania's eagle: it goes back to one George Castriota,
an Albanian Muslim who became a Turkish general in the 15th century, under
the name of Iskander Bey, or Skanderbeg. He later returned to the Christian 
faith and led the fight of the Albanians against the Turks in the 1440's
(one man's hero is another's traitor, I guess).  He used the Byzantine
two-headed eagle on his seals, hence the modern flag. The modern flag
had at various times a crown or a star above the eagle. the star Gules
lined Or dates to the Communist takeover in 1946, and has been recently
removed.

In article <BxsD1s.3tE@well.sf.ca.us> dasher@well.sf.ca.us (D Anton Sherwood) writes:
>
>Prussia proper was never within the Holy Roman Empire, though the Kingdom of
>Prussia acquired territory within the Empire (and of course Prussia proper
>was within the German Empire of 1871).

Quite right. The original lands of the Hohenzollern were the electorate
of Brandenburg (where Berlin is), and those were within the boundaries of
the Holy Roman Empire. Both Prussia and Brandenburg have a (single-headed)
eagle, the Prussian one is Sable on Argent, with a shield quartered Argent
and Sable on its breast.  The Brandenburg eagle is Gules on Argent with a 
crescent Or (the tips of the crescent are trefoiled).

I suppose that the colors of the Prussian arms are linked to that of the
Teutonic order. From what I read, Albert of Brandenburg, grandmaster in
the early 16th c., decided that it would be easier to defend what was 
left of the order's lands if they were secularized and united to Brandenburg.
By then, the Knights had lost all but Eastern Prussia (centered on 
Koenigsberg, now Kaliningrad, tomorrow <your best guess>). It took the 
Hohenzollern 250 years to reconquer Western Prussia.

>The archdukes of Austria were for a long time (from the fifteenth century)
>routinely elected Holy Roman Emperors.  When in 1804 the Emperor, under
>pressure from Napoleon, declared the Holy Roman Empire dissolved, he assumed
>the style of Austrian Emperor and continued to bear the eagle of the old
>Empire as part of the arms of the new.

I think the year was 1806.   Austria's arms were (and still are) Gules 
a Fesse Argent.

On eagles, Neubecker has a nice map showing how the eagle was used in many
of the lands on the borders of the Roman Empire.

-- 

	Francois Velde

Newsgroups: rec.heraldry,rec.org.sca
From: wolfgang@lyxys.ka.sub.org (Wolfgang Zenker)
Subject: Re: Byzantine Flags, and Another Question
Organization: none
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 01:51:56 GMT

mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman) writes:
: > Roman legions had eagles on their standards, but they had one head, and
: > looked nothing like heraldic eagles. The Middle Ages associated the
: > double headed eagle with Empires (actually, I think the "attributed" arms
: > of Charlemagne had a three-headed eagle).
: 
: In the examples I've seen, it is a two-headed or one-headed eagle.
: Attributed arms could vary from rendition to rendition.  I've never seen a
: three-headed eagle in medieval heraldry, but that doesn't mean it doesn't
: exist. 
: [..]

The double-headed eagle was used in the arms of the holy roman empire,
because the emperor was both german king AND roman emperor. In 1483
Konrad Gruenenberg depicted a three-headed eagle in his Armorial as
the future imperial arms, when the emperor would be king of jerusalem
as well.

Wolfgang
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: frankm@microsoft.com (Frank R.A.J. Maloney)
Subject: Re: Byzantine & Albanian Flags
Date: 16 Nov 92 20:53:44 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Windows/DOS Users Ed Group

On the subject of the Albanian flag, Mauro Talocci (Guide to the Flags
of the World) says that when Albania achieved its independence from
Turkey in 1912 a centuries-old red flag with a two-headed eagle. He
says the flag was used by Skanderbeg, the Albanian national hero of the
15th century "in honor of an ancient tradition that the first Albanians
were descendants of an eagle." (None of this is meant to say that the
Byzantine imperial eagle might not have influenced Skanderbeg.) The red
star was added on March 15, 1946, to mark the beginning of the
Communist regime.

What I don't know is whether Albania has removed the star at this
time.

Albania, btw, appears to be the only European state to preserve the
two-headed eagle. Both Germany and Austria, along with Liechtenstein,
use black, one-headed eagles.

The German eagle appears on the state arms, the war flag and the war
ensign, the state flag and ensign, and the presidential flag (but not
the national flag).

The Austrian eagle appears on the state flag and ensign and the war
flag, as well the state arms. The post-Imperial eagle is not only
one-headed, but grasps a hammer and sickle in its talons, wears a civic
crown, and has a broken chain dangling from its legs.

The Liechtenstein eagles appear on the shield of the prince's coat of
arms. The shield is quartered to descent of the ruling family (Silesia,
the Kuenrings, the duchy of Troppau, and the county of Rietberg)
together with the hunting horn of Jaegerndorff. Black eagles appear in
the Silesian and Rietberg quarters.

On the provincial level, I note that there is a one-headed, black eagle
on the cantonal flag of Geneva and two two-headed, black eagles on the
provincial flag of Antwerp. Indeed, Antwerp (and Wallonia) are only
Belgian provinces that do use the rampant lion of Belgium's royal and
state arms. Two Austrian Laender also show eagles, but not black ones,
on their flags: Tyrol and Burgenland.

(Poland uses a quite different eagle. And many Arab states employ
Saladin's eagle, which is a subject I know next to nothing about and
would like to know more.)

-- 
Frank Richard Aloysius Jude Maloney
	"Well, I'm a little muddled." -- Glinda
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry,rec.org.sca
From: c34657b@saha.hut.fi (Tuomas Viljanen)
Subject: Re: Imperial Eagles (was: Byzantine Flags, and Another Question
Organization: The Nibelungenlied Incorporated
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1992 15:45:29 GMT

In article <BxsD1s.3tE@well.sf.ca.us> dasher@well.sf.ca.us (D Anton Sherwood) writes:
>In article <1992Nov12.234327.11358@vela.acs.oakland.edu> atterlep@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Cardinal Ximenez) writes:
>>  I believe that the two-headed eagle is a symbol associated with the origina
>>Roman Empire, and that it was adopted by many nations that claimed to have
>>"imperial" status.  Prussia and Austria were both originally part of the Holy
>>Roman Empire, and Russia's tsars (Caesars) took the name because the last
>>survivor of the Byzantine imperial family married the first of the tsar.

See the end of the article.

>Prussia proper was never within the Holy Roman Empire, though the Kingdom of
>Prussia acquired territory within the Empire (and of course Prussia proper
>was within the German Empire of 1871).

To make things even more confused, the Kingdom of Prussia was, indeed, never
a part of the Holy Roman Empire, but its direct predecessor was. Prussia
was formed from the remnants of the Ordenstaat des Deutsche Ordens (the Baltic
state of the Teutonic Knights) as it collapsed during the 1560's, and the
last Hochmeister, Konrad von Hohenzollern, turned the Ordenstaat into his own
hereditary duchy as the Duchy of Prussia. It became an independent kingdom
during the 17th century. To remember, the Grand Master of the Teutonic Knights
was one of the elector princes of the Holy Roman Empire.

(Arms of the Hohenzollern family are, of course, quartered Argent and Sable.)

>The arms of the king of Prussia had an eagle, but as far as I can tell it
>never had two heads.  Just to confuse you, though, the king of Prussia
>became German Emperor (i.e., of the Second Reich), and as such he _also_
>bore the arms of Germany, which _also_ had an eagle, which was sometimes
>depicted with two heads.

Or, an eagle displayed Sable beaked and armed Gules (one-headed): 
- the king of Germany

Or, an eagle displayed Sable beaked and armed Gules (double-headed):
- the Holy Roman Emperor

Gules, an eagle displayed Or (double-headed):
- the Roman Empire (Byzantine empire: the Byzantines always called themselves
  "Romans" (romanoi), never "Byzantines")

Gules, an eagle displayed Sable (double-headed):
- Albania



  ++ Tuomas Viljanen                     ++ For a battle like Crecy, you do ++
  ++ Lahderanta 20 A 19                  ++ not need a military genius like ++
  ++ SF-02720 Espoo FINLAND              ++ Edward III. All you need is an  ++
  ++ 358-0-592175 or c43657b@saha.hut.fi ++ idiot like Duke of Alencon.     ++
From: Tim@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Tim)
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
Subject: Re: Fields of green (and blue, or gold and silver)
Date: 14 Nov 92 19:51:52 GMT


 VF> In article <1992Nov10.230442.113057@watson.ibm.com>
 VF> mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman) writes:

 VF> JM>What I may not have conveyed clearly is that medieval rolls of arms not
 VF> JM>only depict "barry of nine", but they also blazon it that way.

 I have heard this claim on a number of occasions but have seen no evidence
 to back it up.

 VF> JM>Are these two fields in fact indistiguishable?  Modern heralds assure us
 VF> JM>that they are.  Medieval heralds, by and large, seem to have used the two
 VF> JM>blazons interchangably to describe the same person's arms.

 VF> So modern heralds and medieval heralds agree, and, according to you,
 VF> modern heralds wanting uniqueness of the blazon, outlawed the
 VF> alternate form of blazoning.

 The key concept here being, of course, "according to him". The two designs
 are in fact readily distinguishable: "barry" will have opposite sides of
 the design different tinctures, where as "x bars" will have them of the
 same tincture. A simple principle, easily applied; I find it difficult to
 believe that medieval heralds were significantly stupider than modern
 heralds. Of course, they may not have considered it *important*, but that
 is quite a different question. If the "no color on color or metal on
 metal" principal is important, then this distinction is important; all of
 the heraldic authorities I've consulted seem to think that the rule of
 tincture is of a fairly respectable age.

    Tim of Angle


 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: dasher@well.sf.ca.us (D Anton Sherwood)
Subject: Bosnia & Hercegovina
Organization: Whole Earth 'Lectronic Link
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 01:10:17 GMT


I caught a few seconds of TV news in which a map of Bosnia and Hercegovina
was shown with a coat of arms that I did not recognize.  For all I know it
was cobbled up by the graphics department to suggest the immemorial feuds
that have plagued the Balkans, but it was good heraldry.

It was shown in pastel, and faded to transparent toward the bottom of the
shield, so I can't be sure that what I saw was:

	Azure, semy of crosses or, a bend argent.

But maybe they were fleurs-de-lis.
And maybe there were only six, or twelve, or ten.

Does anyone know this shield?
-- 
Anton Sherwood                                          dasher@well.sf.ca.us
*\\*        Opinions mine, but available for lease at easy terms        *\\*
+1 415 267 0685                 1800 Market St #207, San Francisco 94102 USA
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: velde2@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Francois Velde)
Subject: Re: Balkanic Heraldry
Organization: HAC - Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1992 15:04:51 GMT

In article <1992Nov20.111731.3403@odin.diku.dk> klaus@diku.dk (Klaus Ole Kristiansen) writes:
>velde2@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Francois Velde) writes:
>
>
>>Steiermark, Vert, a goat clymant Argent, armed and tongued Gules. 
>
>Are you sure this is a goat? I have seen it used as an example of
>the heraldic panther. (The panther, like the tyger, is a monster.
>They are not at all like the real-life animals with similar names.)

Right you are. I blazoned this one from sight, and the illustration in
the encyclopedia was not very clear: it looked like a goat.

It's indeed a panther, which Neubecker defines as the body of a lion, 
the head of a bull, the front legs of a griffon, and the hind legs of an ox.
It also throws flames out of its mouth and ears.  Neubecker states that it
is peculiar to Steiermark (Styria) and the area around Konstanz (Constance).

The Oxford Guide to Heraldry has a very different representation of a panther,
closer to the animal by that name, with spots. This may be a divergence of
English and continental usage.
-- 

	Francois Velde

Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: cmclark@dri.com (Chip Clark)
Subject: Re: Tartans...
Reply-To: cmclark@drivax.mry.novell.com
Organization: Desktop Systems Group/Novell, Monterey CA/USA
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 92 22:13:52 GMT

]I come from a very scottish family and have even been back to the Isle
]of Skye where we are from.  I have my kilt, my clan badge (MacDonald of
]Skye/ MacDonald of the Isles) and several instruments such as bagpipes and 
]a middle C pipe.  I am extremely proud of my heritage and am a little 
]disappointed because i can't wear my things because i am female. The only  
]thing that i can wear is a scottish dress with a sash, although I still  
]wear
]my kilt, my pin and my short kilt jacket all the same.  To any Celtic guys 
]out there who think wearing a "skirt" is silly, if youve got the blood,
]there is nothing that you could wear that would be sexier than a kilt,
]a white shirt, and a jacket.  If you think about it, scottish men are so 
]sexy that a kilt doesn't hinder them in the least.
]-meredith aka "vixen"
]mmhous00@ukpr.uky.edu


Well, Hello!

I wear the kilt (yes, I'm a guy) and I'm proud to.  I just went to a formal 
dinner party where I was one of 2 men in the colors out of some 2500
attendees.  I felt pretty special - especially since I was actually wearing
my own families colors and not a rented Royal Stewart.  

My family Clan is Home (Actually, when arriving in the states it was changed
to Hume)/MacDuff/Clark, of which I wear the MacDuff colors because of the 
historical significance my particular family played.  Although Home is trully
the most befitting name as that is my grandmother's maiden name.  

Don't be down on yourself for being female - you carry the name, I can not.
Scotland is a matriarcal society and so the women's names are passed on and 
not the men's.  (That's why the Home from my Granmother is the most accurate.)

My mother's name is Craig from Ireland so I have been doubly blessed.

Glorious Red hair and beard so that makes three blessings.
 
Proud to be a Scot?  YES.  Proud to be an American?  YES.

Do I wear a "Skirt"?  NO, I wear a kilt and if the men in Scotland
can toss trees around (caper) who needs to be more manly?


_____________________________________________________________________
                   |                                                |
Chip		   |	"I can not tell what you or other men	    |
cmclark@novell.com |	think of this life; but for my single self, | 
		   |	I had as leif not be as live to be          |
Technical Support  |	in awe of such a thing as I myself."        |
Desktop Systems    |		- Cassius  Julius Caesar  I ii      |
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroups: rec.heraldry,rec.org.sca
From: velde2@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Francois Velde)
Subject: Electors (was Re: Imperial Eagles (was: Byzantine Flags
Organization: HAC - Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 14:30:02 GMT

In article <By5r3F.FDH@well.sf.ca.us> dasher@well.sf.ca.us (D Anton Sherwood) writes:
>In article <1992Nov22.154529.8881@nntp.hut.fi> c34657b@saha.hut.fi (Tuomas Viljanen) writes:
>>
>>To remember, the Grand Master of the Teutonic Knights
>>was one of the elector princes of the Holy Roman Empire.
>
>Oh?  I thought they were seven:  the archbishops of Trier, Cologne and
>Mainz; and the princes of Bavaria, Bohemia, Saxony and Hesse.  Certainly I
>never heard that the Grand Master was an elector.

I thought there were nine: those cited, plus the elector of Brandenburg and
the elector of Hanover.  The former title was in the Hohenzollern family.
I think Tuomas meant that the Grand Master was Albrecht of Hohenzollern,
who also happened to be elector of Brandenburg.

-- 

	Francois Velde

Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: brandon@gauss.math.brown.edu (Joshua Brandon)
Subject: Re: Imperial Eagles (was: Byzantine Flags, and Another Question
Organization: Brown University Mathematics Department
	<1992Nov16.181805.23606@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> <BxwG72.688@well.sf.ca.us>
	<1992Nov18.045457.1@acad3.alaska.edu>
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 19:29:32 GMT

James Zuelow writes:
>This leads me to a question.  I have a photo of a coat of arms, supposedly
>belonging to my family.  These arms are from a mantlepiece, and have not been
>authenticated, although the piece has been with the family for some time.
>
>I'll stay away from heraldric terms since i'm not fully familiar with
>them, and
>describe the arms in `normal' terms- a silver shield, with a single horizontal
>black bar across the middle, the width being roughly 1/4 the heigth of the
>shield.

In heraldic terms, this would be "Argent, a fess sable", which are indeed
very simple arms, although I can't tell you where they came from.  I can
tell you that they aren't Hohenzollern, however --- those arms are
"Quarterly argent and sable", i.e. divided into quarters, which the upper
left and lower right silver or white, and the other two black.

Joshua Brandon	    Brown Math Department	  brandon@gauss.math.brown.edu
   "It's free association time here at Incoherent Central!"
YAZ/socrates
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: habura@vccnorthc.its.rpi.edu (Andrea Marie Habura)
Subject: Re: Balkanic Heraldry
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy, NY
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 13:44:27 GMT

Francois Velde speculates about the difference between English and Continental
panthers. 

Right you are; there is a divergence. They are both based on the same critter,
but the artistic variation was pretty severe in this case. For starters, 
the panther in the medieval bestiaries is not a fire breather, but issues 
sweet breath from its mouth and ears; all creatures are attracted to it...
except the dragon, which flees to its den. (The panther is used as an 
allegory for Christ. Surprise.) The earlier artists drew the stuff as wavy
lines, which was promptly misinterpreted as flames, and drawn that way 
thereafter. 

Dennys (in his _The Heraldic Imagination_) feels that the English panther is
closer to that in the bestiaries; he says the Continental panther was
hyper-exaggerated into its goatish-whatever form. He may be biased, however. :)

Andrea Habura