From: tmhoff@oogoody.Corp.Sun.COM (Todd Hoff)
Newsgroups: alt.individualism
Subject: Re: Outgrowing Libertarianism...
Date: 27 Aug 1992 18:31:21 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Distribution: world
Reply-To: tmhoff@oogoody.Corp.Sun.COM
NNTP-Posting-Host: oogoody.corp.sun.com

In article 14690@clipper.ingr.com, ald@clipper.ingr.com (Al Date) writes:
>>How about: 
>>1. The implementation of libertarian ideals will lead to policies the
>>   majority of americans view as cold-hearted. Game theory research
>>   has shown without a doubt people have a sense of "fairness" flatly
>>   rejecting traditional economic assumptions concerning rational behavior.
>
>That may be because they have not had to confront the costs, if indeed
>it is true.  It is easy to be generous with other people's assets.
>

No, actually a majority of people are willing to spend a "reasonable" amount of 
money that is "well" spent. People will disagree on what is reasonable
and what money is well spent. Nobody likes to be taken advantage of, but
most people are willing to help people in need--even through taxes.

>It is indeed an uphill battle for a political party which stands 
>against the very idea of special interest politics and the unbridled
>mixing of political power into the economy to take on all the
>special interest groups at once with no money.  No question about it.
>But we are confident that "the truth will out."
>

This follows the pattern "X is true and wonderful it just hasn't been tried."
X can be marxism, communism, christianity, lolipopism, etc..

> But I see no reason to compromise on the idea that the govt should be shrunk,
>just because those who currently suck at the federal teat might
>be inconvenienced.  
>

The mood of the country is definitely with you. But shrunk does not
mean non-existent. The majority of people will pay taxes to help people.
The question is do the mechanisms to help people have to encourage
dependency, service duplication, graft, bureaucracy? No. A voucher
system for education is a good model for government providing "needed"
services through market mechanisms. Creative people can see how these
ideas can expand into other areas of government. Fanatics on all sides
can drone endlessly and inefectively about principles, sensitivity to the
needs of the down trodden, tax slavery, etc..

>De Tocqueville said that American democracy would last until the
>people realized that they could vote themselves largesse from
>the Treasury.  The skyrocketing national debt is the warning
>sign of the impending bankruptcy of our current system of govt.
>

I've read the same. And agree to an extent. The problem is systemic.
Systems can change. But what to change to? Do you really think when the 
bifurcation point is reached the next attractor will be libertarianism?

>It will not collapse because the Libertarians are in opposition
>to the system, but because economic reality always prevails.

The age old question is what is reality? Look around the world. There is
no one vision of reality that is dominant. There are many choices. If you
don't try to realistically influence the choice...

>The Libertarians are just the bearers of the bad news.
>

Oh please. Many people for a long time have been talking about the
"bad news." The current system is just very adept at protecting itself
against change.