From: vengeanc@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu ()
Subject: Re: Spoken Like a True ProLifer
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 17:19:40 GMT

hsims@vax.clarku.edu writes:

>In a previous article, vengeanc@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu wrote:
>>hsims@vax.clarku.edu writes:
>>>In a previous article, vengeanc@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu wrote:
>>>>hsims@vax.clarku.edu writes:
>> 
>>>>>Fetuses do pose a threat to members of society - the women that they are 
>>>>>living inside of.  Every pregnant woman faces a risk of death that is greater 
>>>>>than 0.00.
>> 
>>>>So do people driving cars.  The issue is whether someone has demonstrated
>>>>through an ACTION they have willingly undertaken that they are a LARGE
>>>>threat.  This is a very weak argument you present here.
>> 
>>>If you feel that the risk involved with driving is too great, you have a right 
>>>to stop driving.  If a woman feels that her pregnancy is posing to great a 
>>>risk to her life, she has a right to have an abortion and stop being pregnant.
>> 
>>Do you think any of this stuff through before you post it?  I do NOT have
>>the right to FORCE YOU to stop driving.  YOU might run me over when I'm walking
>>down the street.  YOU might slam your care into my kitchen when I'm eating
>>dinner.  YOU might kill my mother.  Hacking a baby into pieces amounts to the
>>same thing.  The baby has not chosen A. to be conceived .. or B. to be
>>murdered.  Your forcing that baby to DIE means you have enforced your will
>>upon it (much the same as my forcing you not to drive).

>True, you do not have a right to force me to stop driving.  Did I say you did? 
>I'm still not sure why you brought up the driving analogy.  But anyways, 
>you also do not have a right to force me to stay pregnant against my will.  
>You do not have a right to force me to use my body to support a fetus.  You 
>are not forced by law to donate bone marrow or kidneys to save other people's 
>lives.  Why should pregnant women have less rights than you?

I don't think you understand... you got YOURSELF pregnant.  I'm simply
forcing you NOT to murder the helpess, unwilling victim of your hormonal
lack of control.  I'm not forcing you to DO anything you haven't already done.
You phrase that way to bend the issue into the wrong light.  That's not a 
fetus.  If you would like, I can send you several hundred pages documenting
why that is a human baby.  I don't think it would do any good, however,
so my typing it would be a waste of my time.  


>>Why do you insist on punishing the innocent for the crimes of the uncaring
>                                                     ^^^^^^
>>or irresponsible?  Wouldn't this be the same if I suddenly decided that
>>you are an undue burden to your mother, or to society, and brutally cut
>>you apart?  I'll answer my own question.. yes.

>Getting pregnant is not a crime.  Consenting to sex is not a crime.  You 
>seem to think both are crimes that women should receive a nine-month 
>punishment for.  As far as your second question, if my mother thinks I'm doing 
>something that is causing an undue burden on her, I can stop doing it, or we 
>can seek other alternatives.  Can a fetus stop causing a burden on an 
>unwilling women without being removed?  

Don't put words into my mouth.  Having sex and getting pregnant are not crimes.
They are, however, actions that an adult must deal with like an adult.  

The baby did NOT CAUSE ANYTHING!!  The man and woman caused the "burden".
The baby had no choice in the matter.  Don't call it a fetus because I
doubt you know what a fetus really is.

Many actions we undertake in this world are not illegal by definition, but
they do require taking responsibility.  I can LEGALLY buy a gun and keep it
in my house.  If my child finds it and blows his brains out, I am responsible
for MURDERING him.  Having sex is just like driving after drinking (lets
say below the legal level of intoxication).  Even if you think you are being
careful, driving slowly, if you don't react in time to an emergency and you
kill someone, you are a murderer.  It's not manslaughter, it's murder.  
Why is it murder? Because when you CHOSE to start drinking (have sex), and
then even more stupidly to drive your car, you became responsible for 
whatever happened that evening.

Having sex is exactly the same thing.  Once you have CHOSEN (pro-choice?)
to have sex, you must grow up and be responsible for the result of that
action.  

You are the perfect liberal.  You believe that you do not have to take
responsibility for your own actions, ie. having sex.  The world must sacrifice
any moral values to satisfy your desire for unrestricted pleasure.  


>>>>Only an idiot would hold children responsible for the stupidity and 
>>>>cruelty of their parents.  If programs that help these children could be
>>>>enacted that would truly be uncorruptable and beneficial to them, they would
>>>>be warranted.
>> 
>>>Such as?
>> 
>>Limited term welfare in which the participants must demonstrate a willingness
>>while they are sitting on their butts at home to get an education.  Full
>>scholarships based on need are a dime a dozen.  If you are sitting at home,
>>watching your color TV and collecting my tax money, I have a right to expect
>>you to take all your free time and make something of yourself.  If you
>>refuse and instead insist on being a parasite, we cut off your money, take
>>your children from you, and let you fend for yourself.  

>Where do we take these children to?  Our foster care system is already 
>overburdened.  There aren't enough adoptive homes as it is for minority or 
>disabled children. 

IRRELEVANT to the abortion issue anyways.  Murder is murder.  I think I'll
solve the world's poverty and starvation problem today... you've inspired me.

My first action will be to abort all starving countries with a nuclear strike.
I can justify this because those fetuses (they aren't human because they aren't
able to survive on their own) will NEVER have a fulfilling life.  After all,
I can see into their futures, because I am God.

Next I'm going to get rid of everyone who has the potential to be starving
and unproductive.... hmm... I think I'll abort everyone with IQ's below
80, and all mentally handicapped and physically handicapped fetuses.  I can
continue to call them fetuses because they cannot survive without assistance
from we "humans".

My final action will be to abort all homeless and poor welfare families
because I have decided that they are not living productive, fulfilling
lives, and I am God.  These are humans, because they are scraping out a
sparse survival in our world, but since I'm God I feel it would be more
compassionate if I ended their misery.
.
.
.
I hope this sounds ludicrous to you.  Do you see my point?  Since when do
we have the right to determine if someone else's life will NEVER be
fulfilling?  Thousands of people have risen from poverty and more will 
continue to do so.


To get back to your irrelevant point, let's reverse the question.  Why
do you think people in society today are unable to take responsibity for
their actions?  Why do fathers, and mothers, abandon their families and leave
their children in these situations?  Liberal morals.  Why don't you spend
more time worrying about how to teach our children to be responsible, and
honorable, and honest, and trustworthy, and decent, and hard-working, etc...
This is the heart of the problem.  Since when is a lack of available
housing an acceptable reason to KILL those requiring it?  I suppose you
would support eliminating all homeless people?  I'm sure you don't.
I see some hypocrisy here then.


>>>>Abortion is murder.  It's not a question of just the mother's life, but also
>>>>the baby's.  The laws of this country already state that murder is wrong so
>>>>in fact the state already has control over this issue.  The only problem is
>>>>in making people aware of what abortion really is... cold blooded, vicious,
>>>>violent, painful MURDER.  
>> 
>>>You may think abortion is murder, but the laws of the U.S. do not.  Abortion 
>>>happens to be perfectly legal.  But just out of curiousity, what kind of 
>>>punishment do you think women who have abortions should recieve?
>> 
>>Abortion is murder.  The AMA believed this for over a hundred years before
>>they were taken over by you liberals.  I suppose this isn't that hard to
>>understand because charging a woman for pregnancy used to be more profitiable,
>>but now murdering those babies pays alot more.  

>This is simply not true.  Abortions cost a few hundred dollars.  A "normal", 
>uncomplicated delivery costs several thousand dollars.  Complications can 
>raise the price to tens of thousands of dollars.  Childbirth is much more 
>profitable for physicians.

>>Don't ever kid yourself,
>>we live in a capitalist society, and money creates morality.  How do the
>>liberals try and get special rights for gays in Colorado?  They boycott
>>the whole state (even those who voted for the legislation) to hurt them
>>FINANCIALLY.  Money rules most professions.  You women who are supporting
>>your right to kill babies (your right to CHOOSE), are in fact supporting
>>a profession whose only goal is to get rich by exploiting you.    

>"You women..."?  I'm not in favor of killing babies.  

You did an excellent job of not responding to anything in that paragraph.
You should complete that quote.. "You women who are supporting your right
to kill babies".  I say "you women" to emphasize that it is the women who
are being used by the abortionists and special interest groups.

>>I don't think women who have abortions should receive any punishment at all
>>other than counseling.  Women who have abortions are not malicious killers,
>>they are simply women in a difficult situation seeking the easy way out.

>But if abortion is murder, and women pay an abortionist to commit this act 
>of murder, aren't they basically hitmen?  Why would you treat them any 
>differently from, say, a person who pays a hitman to kill someone s/he 
>doesn't like?

Here's the situation:  You first ask me if I want women punished, hoping
I'll tell you I want them put to death.... then when I don't oblige you,
you try to force me into that conclusion so you can call me an oppressor
of women.  Once again, women who have abortions are not consciously paying
someone to MURDER.  They do not believe it is murder, because they have been
LIED to and told the baby is simply "unwanted tissue".  In an ideal world,
say in 100 years, where all of society has accepted that babies are alive
and "human" from fertilization, we could THEN impose punishments on women
who pay for abortions.  In that society which has accepted abortion as murder,
where that is taught in school and by parents, then your contention would
apply.  As it stands right now, most women are victims right along with their
babies that are killed.  

>>They need to be convinced that what they have done, or are trying to do, is
>>in fact the murder of an innocent life.  Only a callous jerk would propose
>>we imprison them for being scared and frightened.  

>This is a very condescending attitude.  Do you think ALL women who choose 
>abortions are just scared little girls who are too stupid know any better?
>Plenty of mature, intelligent women have had abortions for one reason or 
>another.  Several of them have posted their stories here.  

No... you are correct that intelligent women have had abortions.  But you 
tell me WHY they had them.  Because they were afraid of the disruption in
their lives.  You can candy coat it any way you want.  Fathers who
abandon their newborn baby and her mother are guilty of exactly the same
thing.  They can play with semantics and label it as "leaving because I
didn't think I was capable of being a father" or some such nonsense, but
they are just scared of taking responsibility for their actions.  

Intelligence has nothing to do with it.  Fear motivates much of what we do.
Some people get married because they are afraid of being alone.  Some
people stay single due to their fear of being committed.  Some people
settle for a mediocre career because they are afraid to try for something
better.  I know I am guilty of similar "intelligent" decisions, which were
ultimately dictated by fear.  

>>The doctors who perform abortions are murderers. Abortionists should be hung.
>>Talk about being a mass murderer, John Wayne Gacy can't even come close to
>>these sick bastards.  

>Anti-abortion laws will result in dead women.  Why do you feel women's lives 
>are less valuable than fetuses?

You are wrong.  You are so completely wrong I know you have NO understanding
of this subject.  Women's lives are EQUAL to preborn babies.  Only when the 
mother will definitely die from the birth should the baby be killed.  This
should be treated as a great tragedy, which it is.  The baby deserves a funeral,
not a garbage can.

These are the facts... there is NO statistical variation in the decline
of abortion related deaths before and after the 1973 Roe v Wade decision.
In other words, the legalization of abortion had NO effect on the safety
of abortions.  90% of all ILLEGAL abortions before Roe v Wade were done by
licensed physicians, in their offices!  The figures quoted by NARAL were
patently false, and they have since ADMITTED that they lied through their
teeth.  (NARAL is one of the primary forces that convinced the Supreme Court
to rule for abortions in Roe v Wade).  NARAL claimed 5,000 - 10,000 women
died every year from illegal abortions.  The actual figure was more like 50
women.

So in fact, statistically speaking, proscribing abortion would probably
DECREASE the number of women killed each year from abortions.  If nearly
all illegal abortions are done by "real" doctors, then those women who
decided to break the law would still be in no greater danger physically.

Chew on these for a while.  References available upon request.

>>Edward Simmonds- opinions are my own and are perfectly correct 


>				.... Heather. 

Edward Simmonds- Standard disclaimers