From: thomas@McRCIM.McGill.EDU (Thomas Jelonek)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,soc.history,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Hitler's Religion (was re: Instant Yuppies)
Date: 15 Apr 92 03:17:16 GMT
Organization: McGill Research Center for Intelligent Machines, Montreal, Canada
Originator: thomas@Olympus.McRCIM.McGill.EDU


In article <1992Apr13.191030.11055@husc3.harvard.edu>, zeleny@zariski.harvard.edu (Mikhail Zeleny) writes:
|> In article <10392@optilink.UUCP> 
|> cramer@optilink.UUCP (Clayton Cramer) writes:
|> 
|> >In article <1992Apr7.150659.5461@Princeton.EDU>, 
|> >roger@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig) writes:
|> 
|> >> In article <10305@optilink.UUCP> 
|> >> cramer@optilink.UUCP (Clayton Cramer) writes:
|> 
|> >> >In article <1992Mar31.084144.9525@midway.uchicago.edu>,
|> >> >gross@befvax.uchicago.edu writes: 
|> 
|> CEC:
|> >> >> >Clayton E. Cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer  My opinions, all mine!
|> >> >> >"National Socialism and Christianity are irreconcilable." -- Martin Bormann, 
|> >> >> >1941.
|> 
|> LG:
|> >> >> P.S.  Why are you quoting a Nazi war criminal in your .sig file?
|> >> >> 
|> >> >> Leon Gross
|> 
|> CEC:
|> >> >Because there's a widespread belief that the National Socialist
|> >> >movement was Christian.  I can think of no better quotation to
|> >> >demonstrate the falsity of the claim.
|> 
|> RL:
|> >> How's that again?  Quote the words of a lying, murderous criminal?
|> >>
|> >> How about these then?
|> >> 
|> >> "We have no further territorial demands." -- Hitler, Munich, 1938.
|> >> "We don't want to kill any Jews, just relocate them." -- ibid., a few
|> >> years later.
|> >> 
|> >> Seriously, have you no better authority for your case than a heinous
|> >> Nazi criminal?  
|> 
|> CEC:
|> >In a country that was nominally Christian, such a statement is a
|> >profound statement of how totally opposed National Socialism and
|> >Christianity were.  Can you imagine the same statement being made
|> >in America today?  Making such a statement as a lie would be 
|> >counterproductive -- hence the reason to believe it to be true.
|> >Bormann gained nothing from such a statement, and the potential
|> >was strong to damage the National Socialist position.
|> 
|> This sort of reasoning hardly proves anything.  By the same token, Lenin
|> had nothing to gain and everything to lose when he stated: "The capitalists
|> will sell us the rope that we will hang them with" at the time when Russia
|> was actively seeking foreign trade partners.  Political rhetoric just
|> happens to work that way.  Keep in mind that every German soldier had "Gott
|> mit Uns" written on his belt buckle.
|> 
|> RL:
|> >> Or do you not wish to confront the behavior of Germany's Christians and
|> >> Christian churches, most of which embraced the new order with little
|> >> problem?  
|> 
|> CEC:
|> >A largely false statement -- but I've learned to expect those from
|> >you.  See end of posting.
|> 
|> Roger is absolutely right.  See Raul Hilberg's "The Destruction of the
|> European Jews" on the behavior of German Christian leaders, and the 1990
|> NYRB article by Conor Cruise O'Brien concerning the post-1939 _entente
|> cordiale_ between National Socialism and Vatican, which gave German
|> Catholics an excuse to look the other way.  As a matter of historical fact,
|> only one German pastor spoke out ex cathedra against the persecution of the
|> Jews.  See Hilberg, index under "Lichtenberg".
|> 

I am not familiar with this source, but it is true that 
one of the conditions for membership in the Nazi party 
was renunciation of official membership in the Roman 
Catholic church, say. Also I know that there were (plural)
German priests who died in concentration camps. As a disclaimer
let me say that the behaviour of the Christian churches in
Germany was repugnant. But then I believe all religions are
stupid.

Thomas
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books