From: alexis@panix.com (Alexis Rosen)
Newsgroups: alt.bbs.internet
Subject: Re: Internet Access in NYC
Date: 10 Jan 93 12:05:03 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Unix, NYC

I had a hard time believing what I was reading when I saw Raskin's article.
What's particularly puzzling is the large amount of easily checked bogosity
in the article... I don't really want to spend the time responding to such
trash, but if I don't, people might actually believe it. Since Raskin compares
Panix with Holonet and Mindvox, I've also done a little comparing in this
response.

andras@well.sf.ca.us (Andrew Raskin) writes:
>MindVox costs $10 with no startup and no other costs, which gets you
>unlimited mail, usenet newsgroups, etc,etc all the usual Unixy junk. No
>shell for that, their accounts go up to $20 per month for access to
>everything like ftp, fsp, etc. $15 a month is for full access with telnet,
>irc, etc.

Panix charges $10/month or $100/year, with no startup, for full acces to our
Sparc2, including unlimited email and netnews, but not FTP, telnet, etc. This
is the same as Mindvox, or less expensive if you pay yearly. If you want ftp,
telnet, gopher, wais, etc., then there's a one-time $40 fee, and an additional
$9/month. For about the same price ($19/month + startup vs. $20/month) you get
a much faster system and a much faster internet connection. (Ours is a 56Kb
leased line; theirs is a 14.4kb modem.)

>MindVox is one of the biggest sites in the world, but its not really a

Whatever gave you that impression? Do you believe every bit of publicity you
read? MindVox is a Nextstation and a 16-line terminal server. Panix, which
is far from the largest PA Internet system, is far larger in every respect.
We provide full details on our current hardware in our info sheet, which
people can obtain by mailing a note to "info@panix.com".

In fact, the largest system (aside from Holonet, which may be larger, but is
part of a bigger business) is probably either Netcom or World.

>On the negative it is wall to wall celebs, hackers, writers, etc, people
>with big egos, big attitude problems and if you don't like cyberpunk its
>not a place to be. Mixed review, but very happening. Internet services,
>but I wouldn't call it a public access unix.

[Here Raskin quotes me, though the quote was not attributed correctly]
>> Our dialup hunt starts at (212) 787-3100; there are 30 modems behind it.
>> The software available includes multiple mailers, newsreaders, shells, irc,
>> ftp, telnet, gopher, wais, archie, etc, etc. For your extra few $$ you get
>> a full 56k internet connection (ie, no incredibly annoying telnet lag) and
>> a Sparc 2...

>Panix is a public access unix which I used for a while before changing
>accounts. The single biggest problem with panix is that Alexis (hi
>Alexis!) is a dunce and I still feel ripped off for ever giving him my money.

Now, this is fascinating. I've been trying to figure out who I could have
pissed off so much, and honestly, the only person I could think of was one
guy who got thrown off the system after posting a chain letter into dozens of
newsgroups. But his name isn't Raskin. I searched all of our historical
records (we keep a copy of all the newuser registrations we've ever received)
and he's not in there, much less our current password file. So as far as I
know, Raskin has never once been on Panix. He does seem to have some knowledge
of our system, though it's quite out of date; perhaps he borrowed a friend's
account? Or perhaps Raskin just lent his account to this person, who's real
name is different? We certainly never took any money from a "Raskin".

I am also amused at being called a dunce. I've been called lots of names over
the years, but "dunce" is a new one. :-)

>If you login to panix you find out that the Sparcstation 2 is there
>sitting in a room, and panix is running on a Mac because they have not
>figured out how to hook a Sun into the network. Ponder that, Panix runs on
>a Mac because they cant figure out how to hook up a Sun, the most common
>machine on the internet. And these are people running public access unix? 

Actually, it took us many months to get the transition done. It had nothing
to do with being unable to hook up the sun. We had a huge amount of software
built on the Mac which our users expected to have ready on the sun. We had a
large number of users, many of them unix-unaware, who would be terribly
confused by a tricky or difficult transition. At this point, everyone uses
the sun, and the ease of the transition was something that we were particularly
proud of- we had no major problems and few minor ones. Going from a Mac to
a Sun, that was no mean accomplishment.

We also took several weeks off from the work while we installed our 56KB line
to the internet, and several more while we moved to a new office and dealt
with various issues like NY Telephone wanting $15,000 as a deposit on our 30
phone lines in our new location (we finally talked them down to $6,000, which
I still felt was an outrage...).

>Panix always has stupid problems with simple things that should work right
>but never do, the second problem I had while there was that nothing is
>secured properly. The privledges never worked right, crackers are
>constantly in the system because the sysadmins are people who should not
>be running a public access unix its that simple.

Really? That's interesting. I invite you to be specific. We've had two
instances in which hackers got into panix, both times because users recorded
their passwords and allowed them to be discovered. It's quite possible that
we can be hacked, but it has never happened.

>What's going to happen now? MindVox will never respond since the owners
>are too busy getting themselves into Rolling Stone and signing book deals
>to read usenet, Alexis will post some fuming reply saying none of what I
>said is right and come up with 20 reasons why the Sparcstation II that was
>going to be online in September, is still sitting in a corner somewhere,

The next time you make a fool of yourself, you might want to try this first:
	finger @sun.panix.com

I'd like to flame this idiot into the ground, but who has the time to be
outraged these days? I don't. I _am_ glad to note that several users here
have already posted to this group, and perhaps more will too.

>and the smart people who want pau will get a account with HoloNet which
>has local numbers in 212 and 718. 

>Holonet works superbly, all the time, the system admins are competant
>people who have set up and maintain a first class public access unix
>system with local numbers all over the place and its rates are very low
>and compete well against what Panix charges for the same services. The
>difference being HoloNet works properly. They have a free demo account and
>I can't say enough good things about them, if you are looking for public
>access unix, give Holonet a try.

Ah, Holonet. No doubt a very professional system, though I've never tried
it. The one thing you neglect to mention is that they charge $2/hour for
prime-time access and $1/hour for off-peak. And then, of you want to access
them outside of various areas in California, you have to pay long-haul charges
too. I think it comes out to around $2/hour offpeak in NY, though I invite
people with more precise information to post... At that rate, if you spend
more than 20 minutes online per night (or 10 minutes per day?), you're better
off with panix, looking at it from a costs standpoint.

Well, that's enough time wasted. Raskin, if you've got a personal problem
with me, why don't you write me and spare everyone else?

--
Alexis Rosen   Owner/Sysadmin,
PANIX Public Access Unix & Internet, NYC.
alexis@panix.com
{uupsi,cmcl2}!panix!alexis