Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: The delusional nature of sincere belief.
From: adams@spss.com (Steve Adams)
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 18:13:15 GMT
Organization: SPSS Inc.

drake+@cs.cmu.edu (Drake) writes:

>In article <adams.725657689@spssig> adams@spss.com (Steve Adams) writes:
>
>>The doctrinal answer is, of course, that you weren't really saved.  How
>>does one know?  There should be life-changing experiences...you should live
>>your life as close to that of Christ as humanly possible.
>
>So how _does_ one know?
[deleted 'Christian experience']

I can't answer this question...I don't know.   The best I can do is believe
in God, trust Scripture, repent my sins and live my life the best I can.

>>Any person can come to the word and later reject it.  I don't have a
>>problem with that...I don't hold 'once saved, always saved' as a doctrine
>>myself, because I see evidence that contradicts it.  
>
>It does seem to be lacking, doesn't it?
Yep.

>The only question that raises is, how do you become "unsaved?"  Is telling
>a lie sufficient, or does it take mass murder?
Theoretically, an penitent mass-murderer is saved and an unrepentent liar
is not...

>>I can't explain your situation without knowing *why* you rejected the
>>teachings of the Bible...and as for worshiping Satan...you seem to be 
>>accepting the Christian doctrine on evil & its personification, why not 
>>the doctrine on good and its personification?
>
>Let me explain myself: I do not worship Satan.  I do not accept the Christian
>doctrine on evil.  I suspect some truth in the Genesis myths.  Specifically
>here, I believe that the being that the Christians call Satan is responsible
>for man's free-will and self-awareness (represented in the Christian Bible
>as the fruit of the "Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.")  I further believe
>that - no offense intended here - the standard Christian belief system
>is, for the most part, unacceptable and repulsive.  Your Jesus had some
>wonderful things to say on love and kindness...a bit extreme in some places,
>I think, but wonderful ideals.  Even Paul of Tarsus had a few points
>in his favor, but for the most part I consider many of his views legalistic
>and reprehensible.
Speaking 'off the record' so to speak, there are many ways to look at
Genesis.  Paul Harvey and I went through a theoretical thing on this back
in the fall.  Some of the conversation went along these lines.

>>In fact, I'm convinced I deserve hell, and if God judges that's where I
>>belong, that is within his will, and I can't argue.  On the other hand, if,
>>as promised by the scripture, I do gain heaven, then so be it.
>
>Some older theologian - I don't remember who right now - said the same
>thing, didn't he?  "If it be God's will that I suffer the eternal
>torments of hell, I shall go gladly?" (loose paraphrase)
Never heard this quote, but it fits my concepts, at least for now.

>That's a more honest view than the usual smug Christian, "I'm going to
>heaven and you're not, so there!"  I can respect that view, although
>I disagree with it strongly.  It tends to put God in the role of
>a mostly arbitrary, but really really strong, bully.  You say that
>you "can't argue."  Hey, if you're right, I plan to anyhow.  It may
>not do me any good at that point, but... ;-)
I hear ya loud and clear...and likely I'll argue, too.

>>Clearly I know which I prefer...but I also know which I deserve.
>Why do you believe you "deserve" it?

For all those things I've done that are ungodly...and there are a lot.
Yes, I repent of some, but not of all..I can't deny who I was and what I
was before I was saved...

 -Steve
--
  The opinions expressed above are those of the author and not SPSS, Inc.
                         -------------------
   adams@spss.com                                  Phone: (312) 329-3522
   Steve Adams        "Space-age cybernomad"       Fax:   (312) 329-3558
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc,alt.pagan