HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ratinox@splinter.coe.northeastern.edu (Richard Pieri)
Subject: Re: "Fake" MiGs (was Re: PEARL HARBOR)
X-Posting-Software: GNUS 3.14.1 [ NNTP-based News Reader for GNU Emacs ]
Reply-To: ratinox@meceng.coe.northeastern.edu
X-Signature-Virus-Protection: Version 1.51
X-Get-A-Clue: Have two, they're small.
Organization: 3WA, Boston Office. Or Nu Meta Chi. Take your pick.
	<RATINOX.92Dec14115306@splinter.coe.northeastern.edu>
	<1992Dec14.191716.6838@olaf.wellesley.edu>
	<Bz9s2v.L4u@news.cs.andrews.edu>
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 23:43:46 GMT

>>>>> On Mon, 14 Dec 1992 22:06:31 GMT, maierj@edmund.cs.andrews.edu (Joey
>>>>> Maier) said:

Joey> Mabey not an error.  I admit that I'm not a military type and that I
Joey> don't have any 'inside information'  but I am a well read aviation buff.
Joey> I could be wrong, but I think that the T-38 is an F-5 DERIVITIVE(sp?),
Joey> which would mean that we are picking semantics here. 

Actually, the other way around. The F-5 series was deliberately designed to
look and fly much like the T-38.

Joey>  The point, IMHO, is that a very cool plane, one that is often overlook
Joey> because of more high profile military aircraft, is still with us, and it
Joey> is still earning its keep.

The F-5 sees far more use outside the US, which is unfortunate. There are
few a/c that are as easy to maintain as the F-5, and few that have as short
a landing->rearm/refuel->takeoff turnaround time. It gets overlooked when
compared to the rest of the US arsenal because it's only a Mach 1.3 a/c,
carries a very light payload (two medium-range AA missiles and a few
thousand 20mm cannon rounds), and has a fairly short range, making it great
as an interceptor, but pretty lousy as a strike a/c.

But in a dogfight between an F-5E and an F-15E, my money's on the F-5.

--Rat
||||| | | | |  |  |  |   |   |    |    |    |   |   |  |  |  |  | | | | | |||||
Northeastern's Stainless Steel Rat          ratinox@meceng.coe.northeastern.edu
Carpe Joltem! (Seize the Caffeine)                                         --Me
From: erudnick@claudius.pica.army.mil (Edward J. Rudnicki )
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.military
Subject: Re: Info needed on Pzl 24
Date: 16 Dec 92 21:57:05 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: U.S. Army  Armament Research Development & Engineering Center, Dover NJ
Originator: erudnick@claudius

Sorry about repeat posting, but my system had a problem the first
time.



Peter J. Scotto writes:
#Can anyone tell me where I can find some detailed information
#on the Pzl 24?  As far as I know, it was a Polish-built, high-
#wing monoplane fighter that saw action during the WWII.  There
#are several pictures of it in the Squadron-Signal book on the
#air war in Greece, but that's all that I have.
#
#Any leads would be appreciated.



The most accessible English-language source is John W. R. Taylor's
"Combat Aircraft of the World", published circa 1970. It's got
several pages on the PZL P-7/11/24 series.

If you can't locate a copy drop me a line and I'll send you copies
of the relevant pages, as well as other material I have (some in
Polish though).

Please post/write with bibliographic info on the Squadron-Signal book
you mention.


Ed Rudnicki          erudnick@pica.army.mil       All disclaimers apply
From: zarda@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Dr. Strangelove)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.military
Subject: Military aviation news...
Date: 17 Dec 1992 19:07:28 GMT
Organization: Computing Services Division, University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.89.7.4
Originator: zarda@csd4.csd.uwm.edu

From Flight International:

Five Airbases to Close in Benelux.
Belgium
-Training bases at Goetsenhoven and Brustem are to close.
 Marchetti SF-260ms, from Goetsenhoven, will move to Beauvechain.
 Alpha Jets, from Brustem, will move to  Beauvechain
-Underground air traffic center at Semmerzake will close, leaving
 the one at Glons.
-The airforce ammunition depot at Meerdaal will move to Bertrix.
-Two squadrons of F-16 and one Mirage 5 squadron will be eliminated. 
 Leaving four combat squadrons, with 72 F-16's.                         
 20 F-16's will go into storage, with 60 Mirage 5 and 43 F-16's going up for 
 sale.
Netherlands
-Airbases at Soester, Deelan, Ypenburg will close.
-Eight F-16 squadrons will be based at Volkel, Leeuwarden, Twenthe.
-All transport aircraft will be based at Eindhoven.
-All Helicopters will be based at Gilize-Rijen.
-Hawk and Patriot missile units will move from Germany to De Peel.
-The Dutch are forming and air mobile birgade by 1994.
-12 F-27 Fokker Troopships will be replaced with C-130's, Alenia G-222,
 or Fokker F-100QC, all are contract contenders.
-Two KC-10's have been aquired for Tankers.

South Africa Selects improved Pilatus
-Pilatus PC-7, will replace the North American Harvard, as trainer.
-South Africa also has begun a search to replace the Atlas Impala,
 intermediate strike and trainer.

Turkey Considers Task Forces Future
-Turkey is considering whether to close coalition airbase used in operation
 "Poised Hammer". The base is used to protect Kurdish minorities in Iraq.
-70% of Turkey's population does not approve of the operation.
-Aircraft based there include USAF A-10's, F-111's and EF-111's.
 RAF Jaguars, French AF Mirage F.1's.

USAF Loses Four Aircraft in One Day
-Two C-141' collided in mid-air in a refueling exercise in Montana.
 Both C-141B's were from McChord AFB Washington.
-B-1B from Dyess AFB Texas crashed in the mountains near El Paso.
-F-15C from Langley AFB crashed in "Persian Gulf region".

Malaysia Buys Starburst
-Malaysia will purchase the Starburst air defense missile from Shorts Brothers.
-The purchase will cost about 280 million.

[looks as though Malaysia is going the arms race in South East Asia]

Ken
-- 
 Dr. Strangelove      "You just can't let nature run wild." -Gov. of Alaska
 U.Wisconsin Milwaukee    
 Major: Political Science  track." 
 Why that Alias? From the Movie Dr. Strangelove.
From: awrc@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Al Crawford)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.military
Subject: Re: Aircraft beauty .. P38
Date: 17 Dec 92 14:29:13 GMT
Reply-To: awrc@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Al Crawford)
Organization: The University Of Edinburgh - Department Of Computer Science

And lo, mike@aloysius.equinox.gen.nz (Mike Campbell) spake unto the masses saying:
>
> Someone mentioned in another thread about early Soviet jets, with the 
> engines podded under the front fuselage, and how some may have been 
> taildraggers - the Yak-11 fits this bill - it was essentially a Jumo- 
> 004 put in a Yak-3 airframe!

Wasn't the Yak-11 a 2-seat trainer (as if single seat trainers were
commonplace) based on a Yak-9 airframe with a radial engine? I was sure the
"take a Yak-9 and bung in a Jumo" was the Yak-15.

Which ties this thread rather nicely into the "planes that served in both
jet and propellor powered forms" one - surely the Yak-9 and Yak-15 count
here? For that matter, so does the Yak-17, which was basically a Yak-15
with a tricycle undercarriage. Don't think I can include the Yak-23 in here
though - although it was another pod-and-boom design it was similar but
unrelated to both of the earlier designs.

Al

-- 
			Al Crawford - awrc@dcs.ed.ac.uk
	  Department Of Computer Science, The University of Edinburgh
   Rm 1410, JCMB, Kings Buildings, Mayfield Rd, EDINBURGH, EH9 3JZ, Scotland
	     Tel: +44 (0) 31 650 5165  Fax: +44 (0) 31 667 7209
From: megazone@obsidian.WPI.EDU (MegaZone23)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.military
Subject: Re: "Fake" MiGs (was Re: PEARL HARBOR)
Date: 15 Dec 1992 00:18:42 GMT
Organization: WPI USAF -- United Society of Animation Fans
NNTP-Posting-Host: obsidian.wpi.edu

In article <BOWERS.92Dec14141445@rigel.dfrf.nasa.gov> bowers@rigel.dfrf.nasa.gov (Al Bowers) writes:
>In article <1girhjINN7pj@bigboote.WPI.EDU> megazone@obsidian.WPI.EDU (MegaZone23) writes:
>>MiG-20 simulator I believe... But the NASA birds are T-38s....
>MiG-21 to be precise.  They tend to look like the MiG in an ACM

Arg... sorry.... I meant MiG-21 of course.... I hate stupid typos...
Or actually brain backfires as the case may be....

###############################################################################
# I have one prejudice, and that is against stupidity.  Use your mind, think! #
#Email megazone@wpi.wpi.edu  Moderator, WPI anime FTP site 130.215.24.1 /anime#
###############################################################################
From: gak@n5abi.hou.tx.us (Gene A. Kennedy)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.military
Subject: Re: Helo kills of Fixed wing
Keywords: helo kill fixed wing
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 92 19:44:35 CST
Organization: Ham Radio Operator, Houston Tex.

ahng@ee.ualberta.ca (Allan Hong-Kay Ng) writes:

> Hi
>  
>   I saw this in another group, but I wonder if anyone can shed some light
>   on reports of a UH-1 helo getting a couple of An-2 kills.
> 
>   PS that was in Vietnam or Cambodia or Laos.
> 
>   PSS who cares where if you've heard of helo kills on fixed wing say so.

 Since I was the one that posted this in the other group, I'll let 
you know what I was told by e-mail. The incident in question took 
place in Laos, and involved a UH-1 being flown for Air America 
shooting down two AN-2s that were being used for recon. There are 
suppose to be more details in a book written by William Colby, 
I'll look up the name of the book if you need it. I have never 
heard what weapons were used by the UH-1, or other details of the 
incident.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
          Gene Kennedy - Ham Radio Operator, N5ABI - 
                      gak@n5abi.hou.tx.us
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: barney@sol.usc.edu (Barney Lum)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.military
Subject: Re: big a/c on carriers
Date: 15 Dec 1992 17:06:15 -0800
Organization: USC University Computing Services, Los Angeles
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.usc.edu
Summary: C-130, B-25 Doolittle Raid

In article <SHAFER.92Dec10182155@ra.dfrf.nasa.gov> shafer@rigel.dfrf.nasa.gov (Mary Shafer) writes:
>>I've got a video tape, currently loaned out, that shows the C-130
>>carrier qualification.

"Look, Ma.. No Hook!" was the inscription carried by a Herc as it operated
from the Saratoga (or Forrestal?)... props were in full reverse just before
touching down.  Wingtip clearance from the carrier's island was said to 
be only 15 feet!

>Since the C-130 is designed to carry quite a heavy load, it's got a
>pretty good climb rate when it's empty.  It can really leap off the
>ground.  And, of course, it was at sea level.

Just as impressive, if not more so, were the 16 B-25 Mitchells that flew 
off of the Hornet to bomb Tokyo back in 1942.  Even though they faced into 
the 30-knot wind, Doolittle's lead plane had only about  half the deck 
length (400 feet?) to work with.... and they were probably quite loaded even
with all gun turrets removed.  They also timed their takeoff runs to coincide
the upswing of the pitching deck with liftoff.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
              >|            
              >|      barney@usc.edu  Barney@USCVM
 -->  -->  --> |   =======    ---    ---    ---    ---    ---   ---    ---  
              >|      Permanent Student Pilot, On the Numbers   
              >|
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.military
From: zwork@starfighter.den.mmc.com (Michael Corvin)
Subject: Bf 109 (was Ejection seats/capsules)
Organization: Martin Marietta Astronautics Group
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 20:50:57 GMT

When I visited the former Messerschmidt plant in Augsburg (then part of
MBB) in '84 I heard that they were restoring a Bf 109G (presumably
with the DB engine).  I subsequently recall hearing that it got pranged
during a taxi test or a landing.  These recollections are, however, a tad
hazy - can anyone confirm them?  (At the time the Augsburg plant was
engaged in titanium parts fabrication for the Tornado and Airbus and
was an impressive, very modern computer-integrated manufacturing facility.)

Most of the "Bf-109"s flying are, in fact, the license-built, Merlin
powered version produced in Spain after WWII.  The Merlin - 109
combination is singularly ironic, but such is the madness of war!

An interesting closing chapter in the 109 story is how the early
Israeli Air Force flew both Spanish-built 109s and Spitfires...
old rivals became stable-mates.  During the war of independence
there were also Spitfire vs. Spitfire dogfights on a few occasions
when Israeli aircraft engaged British aircraft based in Egypt.
One of the top Israeli fliers (Weissman?) had actually been an ace
in the Battle of Britain.  Once again, the madness of war... 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael Corvin 	      PP-ASEL, PP-G		zwork@starfighter.den.mmc.com
just another spaced rocket scientist at    Martin Marietta Astronautics Group
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
===============    My views, not Martin Marietta's   ========================
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.military
From: pettypi@gaul.csd.uwo.ca (Carl Pettypiece)
Subject: Fake planes (WAS Re: PEARL HARBOR)
Organization: Computer Science Dept., Univ. of Western Ontario, London, Canada
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 20:38:48 GMT

>O.K. This really makes me angry. If there is one thing I hate it is passing
>off second rate 'allied' planes as the enemy! Last night I saw five minutes
>of the worst movie I have ever seen in my life - Iron Eagles II. They started
>off with some F-16's in a fight with four MIG-29's. So far so good - except
>they didn't have any MIG-29's so they painted some F-4's and called them that
>thinking everyone would be too stupid to notice. I was so angry I could have
>shot the producers! I mean MIG-29's are beautiful planes and they were trying
>to pass of this hunched back piece of junk off as one (no offense to all those
>people who like them but I am sure you know what I mean) They would have had
>to borrow the footage or the planes from the Airforce anyway - why did they
>give them a decent looking plane - a F-18 perhaps. It was almost as bad as
>the five minutes of a Rambo movie I watched once - the one in Afghanistan. I
>was expecting a real Russian helicopter or at least a reasonable replica. Did
>I get one? No!! The worst fake I have ever seen - Russian helicopters are mean
>mothers and these weren't!

One of the most amusing cases of substituting fake planes was in
an episode of Magnum, PI (it just happened to be on -- really! :-)
There was a Soviet pilot who was defecting in a "MiG" I don't
think they bothered giving it a numerical designation.  They used
an F-4 for this purpose with a red star on the tail.  That in
itself wasn't too bad, but then they sent up a pair of planes to
intercept and escort the "MiG" to base.  What did they send up?
Why, a pair of F-4s, of course.  They showed them in flight and
there they were, three F-4s in vic formation.  The "MiG" even had
the same Vietnam camouflage as the other two.  On approach, you
could see the three of them line abreast with their distinctive
wing-up-tail-down front view.  Even total aviation-unaware peolpe
said something like "Isn't that the same plane?".  I don't expect
them to import planes from East-block countries just to make a TV
show, but couldn't they at least use a _different_ plane?

>Joseph Askew
>-- 
>Joseph Askew, Gauche and Proud  Barbarian horns draw out the northern wind;
>jaskew@spam.maths.adelaide.edu  Paler than water lies the Thistle Pass;
>Disclaimer? Sue, see if I care  Sky swallows up the road to Kokonor;
>One China One Korea One Eire32  Moonlight, a thousand miles along the Wall.
-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carl Pettypiece (pettypi@gaul.csd.uwo.ca)        Disclaimer:  Hell, I don't
Department of Computer Science                   even know if these are MY
University of Western Ontario                    opinions!
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.military
Subject: Re: Prop-Driven CAS 
From: cvalj001@vmsb.is.csupomona.edu
Date: 17 Dec 92 15:25:50 PST
Organization: California State Polytechnic University, Pomona
Nntp-Posting-User: cvalj001

    The A-1 was probably the best prop CAS platform ever built.  The
side-firing gunships (the AC-47, the AC-119s, the AC-130s) also make very good
CAS platforms- in low threat environments of course.  During the early
'eighties Piper built a turboprop version of the P-51 and called it the PA-48
Enforcer.  It had good speed, range, load, and loiter time.  It was tested by
the USAF but no one ever bought it.  There's also a small prop-driven plane
called the Sadler A-22 that has been recently built that could provide CAS in
guerrilla wars.  Then there was the Fletcher Defender of the 'fifties which was
a small, cheap CAS plane for guerrilla wars and this was later copied by the
Yugoslavian AF in the 'sixties with a plane called the Kragju (I think that's
how it was spelled).
    If some one were really smart they'd put the A-1 back into production.
                                                                          
---
Daemon E. Hobbs, Cadet, AFROTC
Senior, (Carto/RS/GIS) 
Cal Poly Pomona Geography Dept.
Email: cvalj001@csupomona.edu
Phone: 714-869-3590
From: hhtra@usho72.hou281.chevron.com (T.M.Haddock)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.military
Subject: Re: The A-10
Date: 15 Dec 92 00:05:05 GMT
Organization: Chevron

In article <1992Dec14.211433.7796@cs.yale.edu>, nathan@laplace.biology.yale.edu (Nathan F. Janette) writes:
|> In article <92349.103907FWR100@psuvm.psu.edu> <FWR100@psuvm.psu.edu> writes:
|> 
|> > Sure, this is all true, but there's a little problem: SAMs.  If the A-10 is
|> > flying anywhere near a battle area at 10,000 feet, it's going to be greeted
|> > by a Surface to Air missile.   Considering that the US Navy took out a
|> > destroyer(!) with a SAM, _no_ armor is going to save you from that.  Any
|> > aircraft (A-10, F-16, Helos, etc.) near the battle area has to stay low or
|> > it's life expectancy is very short.
|> 
|> That destroyer was rather surprised by an "allied" ship attacking it
|> with those Sea Sparrows.  If it was really in a conflict, it may well
|> have avoided the attack with various defensive weapons including
|> chaff and CIWS guns.
|> 
|> The flaw in you logic is the assumption that a SAM fired equals a SAM hit
|> on the plane.  That is hardly true, as I'm sure many combat pilots will
|> testify.  Aircraft may attack the SAM site's radar with HARMs, may use
|> chaff and flares, may actively jam, use clever maneuvers, etc, all to
|> avoid the SAM successfully engaging. 

 Just a few thoughts along these lines.

 A typical air attack against a warship would include the use of both
 HARM and HARPOON missiles and maybe with multiple aircraft.
 The aircraft approach low and fire HARPOON missiles at the ship.
 Remember, HARPOONS can be give a circuitous route to fly towards the
 ship.  The Time-to-Target times are watched and, at a predetermined 
 point, HARM missiles are fire at the ship.  This is done so as to have
 all missiles arrive on target at the same time in a coordinated attack.
 The ship "sees" the approach of the HARPOONs and HARMs.  Now, what does
 the ship do?  Leave its radar defence systems active to defeat the 
 HARPOON threats and risk the blinding of those systems by the HARMs? 
 Or does it shut down those systems to defeat the HARM threats and attempt
 to evade the HARPOONs?  Of course, in either event, the warship does not
 "see" the second wave of HARPOONs coming.


 The big problem is that none of these systems work 100% of the time.
 In the sea engagements with Iran, several HARPOONs missed their target.
 In the Falklands War, several Britsh ships were unable to bring their
 CIWS or defensive systems to bear.


 TRAVIS
From: hhtra@usho72.hou281.chevron.com (T.M.Haddock)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.military
Subject: Re: Aviation in the Movies (was Re: PEARL HARBOR)
Date: 15 Dec 92 18:51:28 GMT
Organization: Chevron

In article <AAPO.92Dec15161646@punisher.hut.fi>, aapo@niksula.hut.fi (A.J. Heijola) writes:
|>>    My favorite case of mucking with aircraft types happened in some movie about
|>>    an aircraft carrier going back in time to 1941.
|>>    You start out with a pilot in an F-14 in trouble.  See footage of an A-4
|>>    turning onto final.  Then there's a shot of an F-4 coming in over the stern
|>>    and finally they pull the pilot out of an A-7.
|>> 
|>>    CONSISTENCY!
|>> 
|>> Right !!!
|>> 
|>>    -- Craig
|> 
|> Now, if anybody knows which movie it is, I would be interested to
|> know.
|> 
|> Can even reply by email to aapo@niksula.hut.fi

 THE FINAL COUNTDOWN starring Kirk Douglas.

 TRAVIS
From: geoffm@purplehaze.Corp.Sun.COM (Geoff Miller)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.military
Subject: Re: Info on NAVY jet called "Cutlass"
Followup-To: rec.aviation.military
Date: 16 Dec 1992 22:09:45 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Menlo Park, Ca.
Distribution: world
Reply-To: geoffm@purplehaze.Corp.Sun.COM
NNTP-Posting-Host: purplehaze.corp.sun.com



bishopjl@infonode.ingr.com (John L Bishop) writes:

>The Cutlass DID have a delta wing, and no horizontal stabilizers.


Well, I'm the guy who wrote the detailed followup to the original
question, and I remember thinking aout this as I examined the
picture in my source, the Encyclopedia Of Military Aircraft.  The
Cutlass's wings were placed unusually far aft, and they had a fairly 
(but not extremely) wide chord, but they were definitely conventional 
swept wings, not a delta.  (I also used to have a toy Cutlass when I 
was a kid, so I'm intimately familiar with the plane's configuration. :)


Geoff


-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
Geoff Miller			+ + + + + + + +        Sun Microsystems
geoffm@purplehaze.Corp.Sun.COM	+ + + + + + + +     Menlo Park, California
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.military
Subject: Re: Helo kills of Fixed wing
From: cvalj001@vmsb.is.csupomona.edu
Date: 17 Dec 92 15:28:52 PST
Organization: California State Polytechnic University, Pomona
Nntp-Posting-User: cvalj001


    I heard that an Iraqi Mi-24 Hind shot down a Iranian F-4 Phantom during the
Iran-Iraq War.  

> 
-- 
---
Daemon E. Hobbs, Cadet, AFROTC
Senior, (Carto/RS/GIS) 
Cal Poly Pomona Geography Dept.
Email: cvalj001@csupomona.edu
Phone: 714-869-3590