HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: camurphy@acsu.buffalo.edu (Cindy)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Celtic origins and female heroines
Date: 12 Sep 92 22:51:43 GMT
Organization: UB

walker@sun.soe.clarkson.edu (Graham Walker, 227 West Old Main,268-3847,) writes:

>>>>are no really good female role models for those of us who constitute 51%
>>>>of the world.... 
>> 
>>>   This is something I think Celtic mythology and history provides a lot
>>>   of good examples of: Boudicca, Meave, Dierdre, Macha, Epona, Bri/d, etc.

agreed, with feeling.  but be wary of some of the 'myths' which
were actually as politically motivated as anything written by
a greek/roman playwright in the pay of some statesman/emperor/whatever.

>> 
>> There is also Fiacal (Warrior) and Bodball (Druidess), these two women
>> are related to the myth surrounding Fionn son of Cumaill.
>> --

>If anyone is further interested in the female side (interpretation) of
>the pre-christian celtic culture, I recommend "Women of the Celts" by
>Jean Markel (sp?).   

>														GW

i'd also (again) recommend Mary Condren's "The Serpent and the
Goddes: women, religion and power in celtic ireland" published
in 1989 by HarperSanFrancisco a division of HarperCollinsPublishers.
It's somewhat narrow in its scope (and i don't mean 'cause it's
about females) but really gets into the political shit and possible
'real' historical bases...basises...basii?  oh bother.  ORIGINS.
you know what i mean.

Cynthia Murphy   camurphy@acsu.buffalo.edu (u.s. [t.h.e.m.])
From: dmurphy@ithaca.Eng.Sandy.Novell.COM (David Murphy)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: What is Ireland's national anthem? Is there one?
Date: 15 Sep 92 14:36:37 GMT
Organization: Novell, Inc.

Here is the exact wording of the Irish National Anthem
as according to an Irish Goverment booklet, Facts About 
Ireland
ISBN 0 906404 21 5
Irish (come on - I learnt Irish in school, only purists called it Gaelic)
(sure to get my arse toasted on that one)

Sinne Fianna Fa/il ata/ faoi gheall ag E/irinn/, 
Bui/on da/r  
si/ua thar toinn do ra/inig chughainn.  
faoi mho/id bheith saor, Seanti/r 
a/r sinsear feasta,  
Ni/ fha/gfar faoin ti/ora/n na/ faoin tra/ill.
Anocht a the/am sa bhearna baoil, Le gean ar Ghaeil chun ba/is no/ saoil.
Le gunna scre/ach, faoi la/mhach no bpile/ar.
seo libh canai/g amhra/n na bhFiann.

English version

Soldiers are we, whose lives are pleged to Ireland.
Some have come from a land beyond the waves,
Sworn to be free, no more our ancient sirelandm
Shall shelter the despot or the slave,
Tonight we man the "bear-na-baoil",
In Erin's cause, come woe or weal,
Mid cannon's roar and rifles peal,
We'll chant a soldier's song.

End of story on this thread please.
And before anybody starts, I'm Irish living in the states and have family
members both sides of the fence, relatives in the American forces, 
Spanish American war, on,  RFC in WWI, RAF in WWII and since, and wait 
for it, my grandmothers brother was in the GPO in 1916, (for real).

And my own flame who asks a question like does Ireland have a National Atheam
in the first place.  Name me one country that doesn't have one and is older
than 5 years in existance.
From: sylvan@champ.ksu.ksu.edu (Thad A Williams)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Welsh translation help
Date: 9 Sep 92 22:42:36 GMT
Organization: Kansas State University
NNTP-Posting-Host: champ.ksu.ksu.edu

Hi, I'm trying to translate the name Silverfoot into Welsh. I don't
know much about Welsh so I really have no idea how to string the
two words together to make a resonable sounding name. Thanks in
advance!
                               sylvan@matt.ksu.ksu.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
From: walker@sun.soe.clarkson.edu (Graham Walker, 227 West Old Main,268-3847,)
Subject: Re: Scots or Picts (was Celtic alchoholism?)
Organization: Clarkson University
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1992 02:44:17 GMT

From article <librik.716251356@cory.Berkeley.EDU>, by librik@cory.Berkeley.EDU (David Librik):
> 
> I recall reading in a book about the standing stone circles of Lewis (a
> scholarly one, not one of those "pagan" things, since this seems to be
> the vital distinction in this group these days) that about 1500 years ago
> there was a significant drop in temperature in the North of Britain.
> (Due probably to changes in the Gulf Stream).  Lewis, now a cold and windy
> outpost of the Outer Hebrides, was a temperate island and a center for trade.
> If the date's not too early -- and I can't be sure about the figure 1500 --
> it would certainly explain the willingness of Celts and Picts to wear next
> to nothing.
> 
> - David
> 
> Anyone remember the two anthropologists who did all the work on Callanish?
> Husband and wife.  Most of this information comes from their monograph.
> 
If the temperature effect was mentioned in an article about (the
origins of) Callanish, then I suspect that we are in the wrong ball
park, since the Picts and Celts (Scots) were the ones around 1500 years
ago, but the Callanish standing stones were erected about 5000 years ago
(plus or minus 1000 years - I don't have any books to hand). Also, for
those of you who live in the US and who listen to Music from the Hearts
of Space on PBS, have you notices that when Steve Hill plays (wait for
it) "Celtic space music" he often plays a piece called (approximately)
the Standing Stones of Callanish, which seems a little odd since the
people who erected those stone were not Celts. 

														GW

p.s. For anyone who is about to visit the NE of Scotland you will find
that there are a large number of stone circles (including recumbent
circles), and Pictish symbol stones.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
From: davidson@ccrs.emr.ca (David Davidson)
Subject: Cockney slang or prison talk
Organization: Canada Centre for Remote Sensing, Ottawa
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 23:46:29 GMT

Are there any linguist-types out there who can suggest a reference on
Cockney rhyming slang? I have also heard it refered to as "prison-talk".
I am looking for a book which discusses origins etc.. and includes
a glossary.

While your at it, I have heard about the existance of a book which is 
a compilation of Irish slang from Dublin in the 1920s. I'd give my
family jewels for a copy of this. 

Ta very much
David.
davidson@ccrs.emr.ca
From: cockburn@edieng.enet.dec.com (Craig Cockburn)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Scottish Gaelic weekend in Aberdeen
Date: 13 Sep 92 19:03:45 GMT
Organization: Digital Equipment Co. Ltd., Reading, England


It is intended to hold a weekend course on the above date, probably at
Aberdeen University covering all standards from the complete beginner
to advanced. Emphasis will be on the spoken word. A lot of people have
shown interest in the course - 63 to date from Peterhead, Stonehaven
and Fraserburgh as well as Aberdeen. If anyone is interested, they should
send their names and addresses to:

Ray Craig
Woodside Croft
Quartains
Drumoak
Nr Banchory
AB3 3ER
Tel: 0330-8207
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Craig Cockburn, Digital Equipment Co. Ltd, Reading, England.     Suas
  Internet: cockburn@edieng.enet.dec.com                           leis
  UUCP:..!decwrl!edieng.enet.dec.com!cockburn                      a'
                                                                   Gha\idhlig!
  Views here are my own, and are not necessarily those of Digital
From: charles@nmr.ion.bpmf.ac.uk (Dr. Charles Davie)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: e IRISH SOCIETIES IN LONDON
Date: 11 Sep 92 13:33:12 GMT
Reply-To: charles@nmr.ion.bpmf.ac.uk
Organization: Institute of Neurology NMR Research Group, London, UK.


Does anyone have any details on Irish Societies in London for the 'CRACK

CHARLIE
P.S.   Sorry about the previous non-entries.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
From: ulick@angelico.helios.nd.edu (Ulick Stafford)
Subject: Re: What is Ireland's national anthem? Is there one?
Organization: University of Notre Dame, Notre Dame
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 15:03:36 GMT

I'll have a bash at Amhran na bhFian.  Spelling will be shit and I won't 
use fadas, and I may 'hum' the odd line.

Sinne Fianna Fail, ata faoi ghall in Eirinn (?)
Bionn dar slua, thar tiarna rainig chugainn
faoi mhoidh bheith saor, thar toinn na sinsearr fasta
Ni fhagfar faoin tiorain na faoin thrall
anocht a' h'aon sa bhearna baol
le gean ar Gael chun bais no saol,
le gunnai schraoch faoi lamhach na pilear
seo libh canaig Amhran na bhFian. 

I don't think I've forgotten any lines, although I seem to 
remember seeing 12 lines when it was written and it seems
short.  This is
the chorus.  Noone ever sings the verses and most
people in Irlenad hadn't a clue what the German band was
playing at the European championships (or was it in Italy)
when they played the first verse.


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 
+ 'There was a  master come unto the earth, + Ulick Stafford, PP-ASEL       +
+    born in the holy land of Indiana,      + Dept of Chemical Engineering, +
+ in the mystical hills east of Fort Wayne'.+ Notre Dame, IN 46556          +
+      B'fhearr liom bheith ag eitilt.      +    ulick@bach.helios.nd.edu   +
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
From: librik@cory.Berkeley.EDU (David Librik)
Subject: Re: Scots or Picts (was Celtic alchoholism?)
Organization: University of California, at Berkeley
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 22:42:36 GMT

walker@sun.soe.clarkson.edu (Graham Walker, 227 West Old Main,268-3847,) writes:

>From article <BuF6qI.5Do@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk>, by dam@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (David Morning):
>> walker@sun.soe.clarkson.edu (Graham Walker, 227 West Old Main,268-3847,) writes:
>> 
>> I don't know how often I've heard this story about people painting their
>> bodies and rushing naked into battle.
>> 
>> Have these people any idea how cold it is here????
>> Hypothermia perhaps??
>> 

>I know it was not really paint, they were just blue from the cold
>(especially if they had just gone for a swim in the North sea at the
>high of summer).

I recall reading in a book about the standing stone circles of Lewis (a
scholarly one, not one of those "pagan" things, since this seems to be
the vital distinction in this group these days) that about 1500 years ago
there was a significant drop in temperature in the North of Britain.
(Due probably to changes in the Gulf Stream).  Lewis, now a cold and windy
outpost of the Outer Hebrides, was a temperate island and a center for trade.
If the date's not too early -- and I can't be sure about the figure 1500 --
it would certainly explain the willingness of Celts and Picts to wear next
to nothing.

However, I think the fighting nude and body-painting was deliberately supposed
to be terrifying and convince opposition that they were dealing with a bunch
of berzerk psychotics.  (Comparisons to the UVF and IRA will be silently
passed over here).  I doubt the ancient Britons normally went unclothed.

- David

Anyone remember the two anthropologists who did all the work on Callanish?
Husband and wife.  Most of this information comes from their monograph.
From: gln@cs.arizona.edu (Gary L. Newell)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Celtic Cross
Date: 4 Sep 92 22:27:24 GMT
Organization: U of Arizona CS Dept, Tucson

In article <1992Sep3.142406.21766@news.clarkson.edu>, walker@sun.soe.clarkson.edu (Graham Walker, 227 West Old Main,268-3847,) writes:
> From article <1992Sep3.091951.4430@dcs.qmw.ac.uk>, by mmh@cs.qmw.ac.uk (Matthew Huntbach):
> > . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . and who
> > seem quite happy to call themselves "Christian" without any
> > qualifying label, 
> Not quite true, they love to use the term "Born-again-christians" in an
> attempt to make themselves appear to be even more christian that
> "traditional" christians.


 Quite true. It seemed to me that during the Reagan years, it was almost used
as a litmus test to determine the relative moral values of individuals - but
now a days it seems like "family values" has become the "cutting edge
issue" of American politics - makes you wanna puke....


				gln


Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
From: acarnie@athena.mit.edu (Andrew H Carnie)
Subject: Re: Celtic languages (was: Re: FYI - Politics in NI)
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1992 15:46:36 GMT

In article <1992Sep7.131705.28753@dsg.cs.tcd.ie> sloubtin@dsg.cs.tcd.ie (Sylvain Louboutin) writes:
>In <1992Sep4.170332.8773@rdg.dec.com> cockburn@edieng.enet.dec.com (Craig Cockburn) writes:
>
>>From what I can remember, the list is:
>>Insular Celtic 
>>P-Celtic: Welsh, Breton, Cornish, Cumbric(extinct)

[snip]

>Breton as an ``insular'' celtic language?  just wondering...


Yup, Brittany was settled by Welsh and Cornish emigres after the fall of 
the Roman Empire.
From: halpin@vax.oxford.ac.uk
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: What is Ireland's national anthem?  Is there one?
Date: 9 Sep 92 08:45:46 GMT
Followup-To: soc.culture.celtic
Organization: Oxford University VAX 6620

In article <1992Sep8.223904.26061@Csli.Stanford.EDU>, kyle@Csli.Stanford.EDU (Kyle Wohlmut) writes:

> If anyone would be so good to post the lyrics for the Irish anthem,
> either in English or Irish, I would be much obliged.  I remember that
> some of the more popular pub bands in Galway would do it after their
> last song (and most everybody would stand up and sing along... in
> Irish), but I can't remember word one of it today.
> 
> /'''   Kyle Wohlmut   

The one, single, major, dominant function played by the Irish National
Anthem, especially in situations like this, is to tell the punters:

                     No more encores! Go home!

It's a boon to a hardworking band.

(Though I remember reading in the HotPress about a Dublin rock band
playing ``down the country'' one night. When, at the end of the
evening, the singer explained that, no, they didn't know the National
Anthem, and no, they weren't going to play it, he suddenly found
himself on his back in the middle of the drum kit.)

Brendan

Brendan Halpin                    Email: HALPIN@VAX.OXFORD.AC.UK
Nuffield College                  Phone: +44 865 278642
Oxford OX1 1NF
United Kingdom
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
From: walker@sun.soe.clarkson.edu (Graham Walker, 227 West Old Main,268-3847,)
Subject: Re: Scots or Picts (was Celtic alchoholism?)
Organization: Clarkson University
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 14:25:01 GMT

From article <26284@dog.ee.lbl.gov>, by mike@fionn.lbl.gov (Michael Helm):
> Graham Walker writes:
> mike> How do you, or how does anyone, know whether the erectors of Callanish
> mike> &al were, or were not, "Celts"?
> 
>>Point taken, however, since Callanish is dated from 3250 BC to 1500 BC
>>(I did check this up this time) and the earlier date was befor the
>>arrival of the Celts in Scotland (that is even if we assume the Picts were
> 
>           [lots of dates and stuff which I agree with]
> 
> For all we know, the same sort of people lived in the same spot
> for thousands of years from Neolithic times & their language & culture 
> just gradually evolved into Celtic.  What would that mean?
> If so did "Celts" build Callanish or aren't you a Celt if you
> don't wield iron, pipe, do knotwork, & aspirate consonants?

Now we are getting into the are of speculation (on the part of
non-experts) or heavy duty research arguements (on the part of the
experts. For myself, I was basing my arguements on the facts presented in
"commonally available" books such as the date and facts which you
presented (i.e. Callanish dates from 3250 BC to 1500 BC and -as you
point out the Celts - as defined by archeological finds arrived in
Britain about 1500 BC). For me to try and argue a point which extends
beyond these facts whould be foolish, pointless, since I am not an
expert in the field, but a mere interested reader.

													GW
From: mike@fionn.lbl.gov (Michael Helm)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Sheela-na-gig
Date: 12 Sep 92 04:15:02 GMT
Reply-To: mike@fionn.lbl.gov (Michael Helm)
Organization: N.I.C.E.
NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.3.128.60

ctwomey@ccvax.ucd.ie writes:
>Museum here in Dublin.  A Sheela-na-gig is a pre-christian(?) stone statue of a 

What I remember from archaeology class is there is no evidence that
any were made before Christian times.  That doesn't mean they were
made by Christians (altho many are found in/by churces), or that 
none were made before JC (stone is difficult to "date", tho).
One theory I heard somewhere is they could be similar to the
images of sin/sinners (prostitutes & drunkards & the like) found
along the medieval pilgrimage routes, that they were to remind the
pilgrims of what they were supposed to be begging forgiveness for, 
or something like that.  [I think a medievalist told me this once upon
a time.  Maybe my leg was being pulled.]  "Canterbury Tales" for
the pre-literate society.

>The article in the paper described the quandary of the Museum - when the 

I've heard a lot about this legendary collection too -- will they
let you, or anyone, in to see it?
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
From: sloubtin@dsg.cs.tcd.ie (Sylvain Louboutin)
Subject: Re: Celtic languages (was: Re: FYI - Politics in NI)
Organization: DSG, Dept. of Computer Science, Trinity College Dublin
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1992 18:59:55 GMT

In <1992Sep7.154636.12488@athena.mit.edu> acarnie@athena.mit.edu (Andrew H Carnie) writes:

>In article <1992Sep7.131705.28753@dsg.cs.tcd.ie> sloubtin@dsg.cs.tcd.ie (Sylvain Louboutin) writes:
>>In <1992Sep4.170332.8773@rdg.dec.com> cockburn@edieng.enet.dec.com (Craig Cockburn) writes:
>>
>>>From what I can remember, the list is:
>>>Insular Celtic 
>>>P-Celtic: Welsh, Breton, Cornish, Cumbric(extinct)
>[snip]
>>Breton as an ``insular'' celtic language?  just wondering...
>Yup, Brittany was settled by Welsh and Cornish emigres after the fall of 
>the Roman Empire. 

I know (and I still resent having been kicked out (at least my
ancestors) our land by these anglo-saxons barbarians who should be sent
back to where they belong somewhere near Danemark :-) :-) :-)
Nevertheless,  Breton is now spoken in Brittany which *is not* insular.

-- 
//Sylvain R.Y. Louboutin, fax: (+353-1)772204, e-mail: Louboutin@dsg.cs.tcd.ie
//Distributed System Group, O'Reilly Institute, room F.35, (+353-1)7021539 ...
//Department of Computer Science, Trinity College, Dublin 2, -Ireland-  ASK-18
From: oconnell@vms.macc.wisc.edu (Kevin Patrick O'Connell)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: What is Ireland's national anthem?  Is there one?
Date: 8 Sep 92 01:16:42 GMT
Organization: University of Wisconsin Academic Computing Center

How about it?   Is there a memorable recording of it?  Is it popular 
among Irish citizens (not as a chart topper, but is it well thought 
of)?  

Kevin

PS--thanks to all who wrote about subscriptions to the Irish times!
It seems rather pricey right now, but I will start reading it at the
UW library and see how I like it.
From: mmh@cs.qmw.ac.uk (Matthew Huntbach)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Celtic Cross
Date: 10 Sep 92 11:34:02 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Dept, QMW, University of London, UK.

From: newt@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Michael Steven Newton)
dfair@octel.com (Donald Fair) writes:
>>       This may belong in net.religion or something, but isn't
>>       True that some believe that the trinity concept
>>       was added to appeal to the celtic peoples because
>>       they tended to believe in gods/goddesses in sets
>>       of three, and that the promotion of Mary in the
>>       church was added to appeal to the celts who always
>>       had a mother figure as one of their three. I know
>>       the christian trio does not include a female.

>A related excerpt from Peter Berresford Ellis:
>        ... the idea of the Holt Trinity, a remarkable concept, is not
>       Judaic, nor does it occur in Greek myth.  Why, then, does it
>        occur in Christianity?  The first significant work on the Holy
>        Trinity was written by a Gaulish Celt, Hilary of Poitier, who
>        wrote "De Trinitate" during his exile in Phrygia about 356-360
>        AD.  Trinity, the significance of the number three, is an
>        ancient Celtic philosophical symbol.  It is known that the
>        druids taught by means of triads.

It ought not to be necessary to post this, but anyone with any
knowledge of early Christian history will know that the
doctrine of the Trinity was fully formulated at the Council of
Nicaea in Asia Minor in 325, though in a less precise form it
had been around since the start of Christianity. Picking up a
short book on Church history (Penguin History of Christianity
by R.Bainton), I find "Tertullian was the heir and transmitter
of the Greek intellectual tradition in that he had an acutely
speculative mind and strove to systematize and define Church
beliefs. It was he who first coined the word Trinity and
formulated the doctrine of three persons held together in the
unity of one substance". Tertullian was born in Carthage,
Africa, in the mid 2nd century. At no point anywhere in the
discussion of this doctrine are celts and druids mentioned.

I ask once again, why is it that the word "Celt" attracts so
many nutty fantasists who have no grasp whatsoever of history
as conventionally understood.

Matthew Huntbach
From: dfair@octel.com (Donald Fair)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Eagles Reaches Church of Asatru
Date: 4 Sep 92 17:03:05 GMT
Organization: Octel Communications Inc., Milpitas Ca.

In article <Bu1Ly8.FEG@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk> newt@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Michael Steven Newton) writes:
>dfair@octel.com (Donald Fair) writes:
>>	I have been lead to believe that the celts of Ireland
>>	were Iberian Celts. Is this Latin? Also I have read
>>	that the Celts were nomadic and roamed through out
>>	europe and were not a pure racial group but likely
>>	a mixture. Would a historian without so obvious
>>	a slant present facts and not an emotional out
>>	pouring. We of this group are willing to hear
>>	facts thats why we read the group. 
>>	Wasn't early europe a conclomeration of tribal
>>	peoples from a number of areas likely enter
>>	mixing and shareing many ideas.
>>---------------------------------------------
>
>  THis sounds like more comic book Celts.  See my note on "Celtic
>origins...".  The talk of wandering hordes of Celtic conquerers is old
>nonsense.  The more modern approach to the subject is one of gradual
>assimilation and group cultural identity formation, over a long period
>of time and space.
>  "Iberian Celts" is a term describing the Celts who were living in
>Northern Spain.  Remember that before the domoination of the Roman
>Empire, the continent was strewen with small tribal centers of Celts.
>  Celts were *not* a racial group -- ethnicity is defined by language
>and cultural values, not some vague genetic poppycock.
>
>  -- Mi/cheal

	Once again I ask. Where is the reference to conquerers ??
	Where is the racial purity concept. I say clearly that
	the celts where a mix. As far the Iberian Celts I was told
	by historians all over Ireland that the Iberian Celts where
	the first settlers. Coming north to Ireland to find copper
	and leaving their markers the Ogham stones. Know what an
	Ogham stone is ?? Also where is my comment about Genetics??
	Why not present facts not slurs and insults.
	The fact that most of the early settlers of europe where
	nomadic is pretty well established how is stateing that
	somehow comic book.    
	And as a refernce to your note why didn't you include it
	rather than claim it exists.
	And remember the continent was strewn with other racial
	groups as well. The mongols passed through the hun passed
	through.
	By the way trying to make a non celtic name celtic with
	a / does not make you an expert.
-- 
_____________________________________________
Donald H. Fair       Software Sanitation Eng.
dfair@octel.com     "They're all small when 
standard disclaimer  They're blue." papa smurf 
---------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic