HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: holzman@fnalno.fnal.gov (Daniel B. Holzman)
Subject: Re: Women and Men Witches
Organization: Fermi National Accelerator Lab
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 22:09:58 GMT
X-Posted-From: fnalno.fnal.gov
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In article <2B0D3BBB.9755@news.service.uci.edu>, cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu 
(Janis Maria Cortese) writes:
> I second this -- it's wonderful.  There's a lot of anger in it, but I
> detected no HATE directed toward men.  Just anger.  Besides, when she
> gets going, she can have the deadliest wit I've ever encountered.

Please don't take this as a flame, Janis, but I have found that sometimes it is
necessary to be the target of hate to be able to distinguish between it and
anger.  Of course, anger and hate are not mutually exclusive, either.  I find
her description of her utopia very misandrist.

-- 
Daniel B. Holzman                    | Eight Words the Witch's Rede Fufill:
HOLZMAN@FNAL.BITNET                  | An It Harm None, Do What You Will
HOLZMAN@FNALC.FNAL.GOV.INTERNET      |
                                     | All Acts of Love and Pleasure are
Love doesn't subtract,               | Her Rituals
   it multiplies    - Heinlein       |
                                     | Speak the Word.
Disclaimer:  Fermilab's far too large to have an opinion, let alone mine.
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: suzi@trifid.astro.ucla.edu (Suzanne Casement)
Subject: Re: Who are we kidding?
Summary: Astronomical clarification
Organization: UCLA Dept of Astronomy
Date: 19 Nov 92 13:31:55 PST

>	Best estimates of the Sun's stable future is about 20 billion
>years, FYI. It's a real mellow G-type.
>
>						Kayembee

Hate to disillusion you but the estimated lifetime of a G-type star like
the sun is only about 10 billion years. Therefore it would only barely
have enough time to rejuvinate life before evolving into a red giant and
cooking all the interior planets, if life could even evolve again since
the conditions during which life evolved were much different than they
are today.

Let's hope good ol' mother earth doesn't have to try to start life again
why don't we. If EVERYONE pitches in, I think we can make a difference!

B*B,
Krystyl

Suzanne Casement         | AKA: | Krystyl, EnigmaCon ConChair
UCLA Dept of Astronomy   |      | Team Star Member
8979 MSA                 |      | 
405 Hilgard Ave.         |EMail:| Internet : suzi@trifid.astro.ucla.edu
LA, CA  90024            |      | GEnie    : S.CASEMENT
From: cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
Subject: Re: Who are we kidding?
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: 20 Nov 92 01:26:56 GMT

In article <92324.12555234AEJ7D@CMUVM.BITNET> <34AEJ7D@CMUVM.BITNET> writes:
>In article <2B0A8245.16232@news.service.uci.edu>, cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis
>Maria Cortese) says:
>>
>[incredible deluge of drivel deleted]
>>
>>something else have a shot at it.  Right now, all I want to do is find
>>some quiet little island or something to live on so I can avoid as much
>>of the splat as I can when the shit finally hits the fan.
>>
>>Janis
>
>An excellent idea in this instance. Preferably one without net access.

Awwww -- did I piss someone off?  Poor little baby!

Janis the Brave Enough to Post Her Name

Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: burkel@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (respect others' visions- live your own)
Subject: _Colorado_&_A2_
Summary: Intro. Statement 
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 03:54:01 GMT


	Okay, it's been a few days an no one has voiced any opposition
to this, so I will begin posting information concerning Colorado's
passage of Amendment 2, known from now on as A2.  Taking one person's
suggestion, I will title all the posts the same, so that if this
thread does not interest you, you can just push the 'kill' button
and be done with it.
	This is the first post of three I will make this evening. This
post is simply to explain the intent, the second is a brief history of
A2 (as enough people were interested in that to warrent it, and the
third will concern the current action being taken in the state of
Colorado and elsewhere to repeal A2.
	As this issue is quite emotional for me and something I never
thought would happen in a state I really respect for other reasons, I
will be as careful as I can to limit what is said here to what I have
gotten from the newspapers. When I slip into a personal reflection, I
will try to warn you beforehand so that you won't be confused.
	Also, since I have decided to do this, I was wondering if
someone could mail me, and let me know if there is a way to transfer
posts directly (or after some editting) from the Colorado A2 discussion
group to alt.pagan. There is a LOT of info, and it would make things
easier for me if I didn't have to retype everything :)

With that said, anyone who wants to contact me can do so at:
		burkel@ucsu.colorado.edu

Blessed Be

Laura


Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: pharvey@quack.sac.ca.us (Paul Harvey)
Subject: Re: Madonna was Tipper Gore? was the US elections...
Organization: The Duck Pond public unix: +1 408 249 9630, log in as 'guest'.
	<1992Nov16.193351.23349@s1.gov>
Date: 17 Nov 1992 06:56:34 UTC

In article <1992Nov16.193351.23349@s1.gov> 
lip@s1.gov (Loren I. Petrich) writes:
>	It was "Medusa: Dare to be Truthful" by "Just Say Julie"
>Brown, who appears as a Madonna-type singer.
>	Personally, I'm surprised that the Vatican has not
>excommunicated Madonna for what she's done. I don't think they'd be
>too happy with someone who seems like she'd love to hump a saint.
>	That sounds like ritual sex ... hmmmmmmm ...

You know, there's a rumor going around that Madonna and the ... no, I
better not. Not gonna be able to do. Kiss me and I'll kiss you back.
It's all he-say she-say anyhow. Honor and ...
From: bn566@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ward Chanley)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Women and Men Witches
Date: 17 Nov 1992 10:46:48 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


Re: I know a number of Gay men who 
would disagree with you...

And -I- know a number of Gay men (myself included)
for whom a world without women is absolutely 
the last thing they want.

I know you were probably trying to make a joke;
but it does dredge up the tired stereotype of
Gay men as mysogynistic.  Trust me, the reality
is that most of the men who hate women are 
heterosexual.  Indeed, mysogyny and homophobia 
often go hand in hand.
-- 
You know life is an impossible scheme,
And love, an imperceptible dream...
     --- Pet Shop Boys
bn566@cleveland.freenet.edu (Ward Chanley)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: holzman@fnalno.fnal.gov
Subject: Re: Scummy behavior of pagan malessho pro
Organization: Fermi National Accelerator Lab
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 02:43:50 GMT
X-Posted-From: fnalno.fnal.gov
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In article <1992Nov16.102307.44819@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu>, 
kumagic@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu (Stephen R. Figgins) writes:
> Some examples within and without the community.
[snip]
> 
> I can think of plenty more, these just leapt to mind as examples of
> men's scummy behavior both within and without our community.  I would
> be interested in hearing others examples of men's scummy behavior
> within the pagan community.   Or am I the only one who notices this
> stuff?  It has been said that men within the pagan community were
> different than men outside the community in their relations to women.
> I have said this is not very true.  What do others think?

No argument, what you have described is pretty scummy.  What you miss is that
while those acts entitle you to label those *individual men* who engage in them
as scummy, it is bigotry to conclude that *all* men, or even *all pagan* men
are scummy.  

In one stroke, you totally invalidate all the pagan men, myself and I assume 
yourself, who do *not* abuse our wives and lovers, who are *not* drunk 
assholes, who do *not* simply sit around at gatherings and gawk, who *do* own 
and enjoy artwork with men as naked as the women, ad infinitum, ad nauseum.

If you want to expand it to the outside world, you are invalidating the men who
don't sexually harass, or give out awards based on who wears the tightest
skirt.

--
Daniel B. Holzman                    | Eight Words the Witch's Rede Fufill:
HOLZMAN@FNAL.BITNET                  | An It Harm None, Do What You Will
HOLZMAN@FNALC.FNAL.GOV.INTERNET      |
                                     | All Acts of Love and Pleasure are
Love doesn't subtract,               | Her Rituals
   it multiplies    - Heinlein       |
                                     | Speak the Word.
Disclaimer:  Fermilab's far too large to have an opinion, let alone mine.
From: markbr%radian@natinst.com (markbr)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: the US elections...
Date: 17 Nov 92 22:55:56 GMT
Organization: n.o.y.b

In article <1992Nov14.003413.8356@henson.cc.wwu.edu> n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio) writes:
>ksm@abb-sc.abb-sc.com (Ashley) writes:
>>	Now I own a handgun. I look down at the piece of cold metal and 
>>rubber resting uncomfortably in my hand and I feel sick. This thing was 
>>made for the express purpose of killing human beings. I don't like it. I 
>
>	It's all in your head.  Your grandpa's hunting rifles are
>even more deadly.
>
How do you know her granpa had hunting rifles? Neither of mine certainly didn't.
And are you trying to tell her she *should* be happy with feeling that she
*needed* to buy one? 

>>don't like it at all. But the other night the police gunned down a man who 
>>was out of his mind on drugs and very well armed just a few blocks from 
>>where I live. It's a dangerous world out there, and it keeps getting 
>>smaller all the time. I own a handgun. I don't like it, but I own a 
>>handgun.
>>			- Ashley

Ashley,
   I understand how you feel. In fact, I'm glad you do dislike it. The people
that worry me are the ones who think "oh, wow, it's great, now I can protect
myself (and probably, "NOW, I'm a REAL MAN!)"). They don't seem to realize
the horror of the necessity. *THIS* is a civilization? I remember seeing
pieces, about the time of King Arthur, and other "good kings", where they boast
that "a woman could walk the length of the kingdom, wearing jewels, and not
be afraid of being attacked". I *am* very sorry that you felt the need.

	mark
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: holzman@fnalno.fnal.gov (Daniel B. Holzman)
Subject: Re: Women and Men Witches
Organization: Fermi National Accelerator Lab
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1992 03:03:18 GMT
X-Posted-From: fnalno.fnal.gov
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In article <1992Nov22.033706.15199@news.ysu.edu>, ag055@yfn.ysu.edu (Ward 
Chanley) writes:
>  it necessary to rebel.  If the society
> was totally alienated from violence, where did the sons learn it?
> 
> -----
> Where did they learn it?  I think it was genetically encoded; instinct.
> That doesn't mean that men are "flawed" just that were different.  
> When those differences are expressed in ways that don't opress 
> people, there isn't a problem.  When they ARE used to  opress, 
> there is.

I find a catch-22 here.  If the men were always violent, how did the women get
them to lay off long enough to have a golden age?  And what happened to get
them do decide to lay back on?

-- 
Daniel B. Holzman                    | Eight Words the Witch's Rede Fufill:
HOLZMAN@FNAL.BITNET                  | An It Harm None, Do What You Will
HOLZMAN@FNALC.FNAL.GOV.INTERNET      |
                                     | All Acts of Love and Pleasure are
Love doesn't subtract,               | Her Rituals
   it multiplies    - Heinlein       |
                                     | Speak the Word.
Disclaimer:  Fermilab's far too large to have an opinion, let alone mine.
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: George Paap <george_paap@email.sps.mot.com>
Subject: Re: CFV: misc.health.alternative
Organization: Motorola - SPS
X-Useragent: Nuntius v1.0
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 21:20:58 GMT

George Paap

I am my opinions.
From: casspa@atlantis.CS.ORST.EDU (Paul Cass)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: the five stages
Date: 16 Nov 92 06:35:17 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Outreach Services - Oregon State University

In article <fVixInB@quack.sac.ca.us> pharvey@quack.sac.ca.us (Paul Harvey) writes:
>1. Anger
>2. Denial
>3. Bargaining
>4. Depression
>5. Acceptance
>
>What do these stages mean?

If these five stages are under discussion then (probabley) there is a
terminal illness involved.  Cancer, Aids etc....  I believe the book
was called "On Death and Dieing" but I'm not positive.
BB
Paul

-- 
                          * * * * * * *
"It is possible to join forces, to identify common goals, and to agree on
 common action." - U.N. World Commission on Development and Environment
		       casspa@jacobs.cs.orst.edu
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio)
Subject: Re: the US elections...
Organization: Western Washington University
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 03:56:50 GMT

marty@world.std.com (Marty M HaleEvans) writes:
>What do some of you think of the hand-held stun weapons that are coming onto
>the market? These are relatively inexpensive (~$100), easy to use, easy to
>carry, legal, and produce no lasting harm. Just enough neural disruption to
>allow one to escape. There was some writing about them in the newest _MONDO
>2000_. My husband and I have been talking about them as a non-violent option
>to the self-defense problem. The main problem is that you do have to touch 
>the assailant with the weapon, so you have to let him/her get close. Also, 
>like any weapon, it can be taken away and used on you. However, that's a 
>possibility with any weapon, and I'd rather have a stunner go off accidentally
>in struggle or even used on me than a gun or knife.

Fun to play with.

Don't use it if your life depends on it though, it's more of
a novelty item than anything.
From: mimir@hardy.u.washington.edu (Al Billings)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Mikey
Date: 17 Nov 92 22:53:16 GMT
Organization: The Friends of Loki Society

In article <BxvGtv.3BB@encore.com> aaldrich@encore.com (Al Aldrich) writes:
>
>Please don't blame the child for the parents irresponsibility.
>The child IS a wonderful child. Why doesn't this `community' talk
>to the mother and demand that she address the obvious problem?
>In our community, we adults with small children talked about this
>potential problem and decided to coop childcare in a different space
>than the ritual so as to avoid these kind of interruptions. We
>do set aside certain times in some rituals when we invite the children
>in and allow them to participate to some degree but with no expectations
>of anything but cursory attention at those times. I hope that the
>adults who feel like you do about Mikey will do something constructive
>about it rather than just grumbling about Mikey.

 What you propose is lovely but, as has been pointed out with the male
issue recently here, what do you do if she doesn't listen. People HAVE
told her that she isn't doing the right thing. People have done it in a
nice way. People have done it in a pissed way. She's the mother and she
knows best, from what I've been told of her response. She has enough pull
in the "community" (and I do put the words in quotes) that you can't
really get on her case about it and not be violating someone's personal
set of ethics. I don't really worrry about it (if I did, I wouldn't be
posting it here since her coveners read this newsgroup) as my reputation
(such as it is) isn't likely to suffer. I'm already known to be an
obnoxious asshole but I am also known to speak my mind. You can't force a
mother to treat her child in a manner that you approve of. She isn't
abusing him, just making him into a brat.

>Blessings
>
>al ( also )

 Hi Al!

Wassail,
Grendel
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: radzy@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU (T. O. Radzykewycz)
Subject: Re: Women and Men Witches
Organization: International Computer Science Institute, Berkeley, CA, U.S.A.
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 15:45:36 GMT

In article <1eafs2INN6n6@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> bn566@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ward Chanley) writes:
> Re: How does moving from one addiction (patriarchy) to another
> (matriarchy) make things better...
> 
> Again, that assumes that a matriarchal culture would be a
> "mirror image" of the patriarchal one.  I don't think that one
> can so automatically make that assumption.
> 
> Again, I have a belief that women have essentially different
> values than men; the "why" here is irrelevant.

No, it isn't irrelevant.  Assuming that the value systems are
created by society, then when we replace the center of power
by men with a center of power by women, then the value systems
are likely to flip-flop.  Women will be likely to pick up on
the power-over that men currently have available to them, and
the mirror-image *will* result.

> It may well be that patriarchal condition- ing is entirely "in
> the head" and not "in the genes" at all.  If so, by changing the
> focus of the culture from the center of power-over expressed by
> patriarchy to the center of power-from- within expressed by
> matriarchy, the culture would produce men with a matri- archal
> conciousness and a more equal society as a whole would be
> created.

OK, great.  If you want to change the society from one based on
power-from-within rather than power-over, then we're in complete
agreement.  That's exactly what I want, too.

But when you link power-over with patriarchy and power-from-within
with matriarchy, then you're missing something important.  Patriarchy
is a system where men have the majority of the power.  Matriarchy
is a system where women have the majority of the power.  The assumption
you're making, namely that women in a position of power won't develope
into power-over based creatures, is simply false!

> But the essential thing is to change that focus itself before we
> destroy ourselves and our planet.

Right.  But *not* to replace one abusive system (patriarchy) with
a different one (matriarchy).

Gender-free Blessings!

		-- radzy

------------------------------------------------------------
					|  An it harm none,
	T. O. Radzykewycz	     	|  do as ye will.
	The Incredible Radical Cabbage	|
					|  "Just pray for a
	radzy@cogsci.berkeley.edu       |  tough hide and a
	        			|  tender heart."
	        			|    -- Ruth Graham
------------------------------------------------------------
Tribal Mother was old, and lay ill on a bed of moss and
fern.   Her hair was long and grey.   Her face was very
wrinkled.    Tamura'nun-pa thought:   How beautiful you
are, Mother, so old and wise.
From: wce@hogbbs.scol.pa.us (Bill Eichman)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Scummy behavior of pagan males
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 92 14:47:25 EST
Organization: The Heart of Gold BBS, Lemont PA

haley@husc11.harvard.edu (Elizabeth Haley) writes:

> I realize it is a real pisser to have to curtail ones own freedom in a
> place you specifically went to experience greater freedom.
> (It certainly pisses me off...)
> But it's either that or start your own gathering and avoid the large
> ones...

Which is, indeed, exactly what I plan to do...;-)

A lot of the little festivals are much more cool than the big festivals, 
and, naturally, as these things go, among little festivals, some are more 
cool than others.

There's something I feel is missing now from the big festivals, so I'm 
going to take responsibility for running a smaller festival, and let the 
magickal power of supply and demand do it's transformative work...

Later, Bill

ps I'm glad I'm a big male with fighting skills, at some points in the 
big festivals. It's hard to imagine what younger and smaller people feel 
in those situations. Sooner or later someone's likely to come to serious 
harm. (Now I sound like my mother-- "You'll put out an eye...!".)

Xref: sparky alt.pagan:12912 alt.paranormal:2496 alt.out-of-body:467
From: altheimm@nextnet.csus.edu (Murray Altheim)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan,alt.paranormal,alt.out-of-body
Subject: Personal Note to Thyagi
Date: 16 Nov 92 18:13:26 GMT
Organization: California State University Sacramento

Just a quick note to Thyagi...

I replied to your e-mail, but it got bounced. Could you send me
a valid address? Cup at portal comm didn't work. :-)

Murray

-- 
Murray M. Altheim      "Ils ont l'orteil de Bouc, & d'un Chevreil l'oreille,
Instructional Consultant    La corne d'un Chamois, & la face vermeille
CSU, Sacramento          Comme un rouge Croissant: & dancent toute nuict
altheimm@csus.edu       Dedans un carrefour, ou pres d'une eau qui bruict."
From: holzman@fnalno.fnal.gov (Daniel B. Holzman)
Subject: Re: Women and Men Witches
Organization: Fermi National Accelerator Lab
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1992 03:18:11 GMT
X-Posted-From: fnalno.fnal.gov
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In article <1992Nov22.034234.15435@news.ysu.edu>, ag055@yfn.ysu.edu (Ward 
Chanley) writes:
> But WHAT in men are you going to value?
> When men have a matriarchal
> conciousness, then, and only then will
> we have a culture that won't revert
> back to the patriarchy the men were
> raised with.

I cannot distinguish between what I value in men and women because there is
nothing that I have found in either that I have not found in the other.

-- 
Daniel B. Holzman                    | Eight Words the Witch's Rede Fufill:
HOLZMAN@FNAL.BITNET                  | An It Harm None, Do What You Will
HOLZMAN@FNALC.FNAL.GOV.INTERNET      |
                                     | All Acts of Love and Pleasure are
Love doesn't subtract,               | Her Rituals
   it multiplies    - Heinlein       |
                                     | Speak the Word.
Disclaimer:  Fermilab's far too large to have an opinion, let alone mine.
From: ksm@abb-sc.abb-sc.com (Ashley)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Women and Men Witches
Date: 19 Nov 92 22:05:21 GMT
Organization: ABB Systems Control Company, Inc.


In article <1egi2hINNnpq@bigboote.WPI.EDU>, brenda@wpi.WPI.EDU (brenda) writes...
> 
>I have been doing research on Witchcraft for a while, in order to get 'the 
>whole story' as it were...
> 
>i am reading a book called "The Cosmic Mother" by monica sjoo and margaret(?)  
>mor... and it outlines the societies that were matriarchal, in a good light, 
>and then those that are patriarchal, in a bad light.  my overall impressions 
>are that a matriarchal society didnt work, and a patriarchal society isn't 
>working either... 
> 


	I've got that book! I haven't been able to wade through all the 
man-hating and finish it yet! I'd advise you to read something else, the 
background research is good, but the authors aren't interested in an even 
handed presentation of the facts, they want to push matriarchy (as you 
noticed). I have a real problem with this book as do many of my friends who 
have tried to read it. These are the REAL female supremacists and they are 
scarey! 
	I once read an essay by a "Dwarkinite" feminist about this book. She 
concluded that the perfect society, based on Sjoo and Mor's research is one 
where three quarters of the male population is "swept away" and the remainder 
is "georaphicly restrained" and used for breeding! She liked the idea. I didn't 
like the idea, or her. 


			- Ashley,

		who isn't an ANYTHING supremacist.

Newsgroups: alt.pagan