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Date:         Mon, 11 Jan 1993 10:03:24 -0500
From:         Eric James Ewanco <ewanco@MLO.DEC.COM>
Subject:      Re: contraception - a crosspost

Excerpts from christia: 2-Jan-93 contraception - a crosspost Ian
Williams@AU.ORACLE.C (5348) (originally from David Shao)

> To teach that artificial contraception is as bad as extra-marital sexual
> intercourse is an incredible perversion of the Church's role as the
> conductor of the Holy Spirit's instruction to the world. This issue is
> simply a non-issue in Scripture, whereas it is repeatedly stated that
> sexual relations should be confined to marriage.

Just like abortion, right?  How about masturbation?  How about drug use?

Scripture forbids "fornication" -- or "unlawful sexual intercourse."
Now, who decides what sexual intercourse is "lawful" or not?  Scripture
strangely enough does not directly condemn pre-marital sex, just
"fornication."  My point is that simply because Scripture doesn't say
that the use of contraceptions is sinful does not mean that it's OK.

It is also worthy to note that actually some words used to describe sins
in Scripture do have a meaning that refers to contraceptive medicines.

Finally, the Christian Church has always forbidden contraception (until
1930, when Protestant denominations started to change their previous
opposition to contraception).

There are good reasons why Catholics believe that contraception is sinful.

P.S.  I think I'm finally caught up, almost, no guarantee if I will stay
that way, I'm pretty busy ...

Eric
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Date:         Tue, 12 Jan 1993 13:20:09 MDT
From:         Fred Fowler <frefow@FREFOW.AUTO-TROL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Contraceptives as treatment for illnesses
              93 12:52 pm

  From the little that I have read about contraceptive drugs, they
  can have dangerous side effects.  I would hope that the physicians
  who are prescribing them for various problems not connected with the
  desire to avoid pregnancy are monitoring their patients' health.

                                       Fred Fowler
                                       frefow@frefow.auto-trol.com
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Date:         Thu, 7 Jan 1993 10:31:26 CST
From:         Renee Autry <SRAUTRY@SAMFORD.BITNET>
Subject:      Unanswered Prayer

How does one tell the difference between an unanswered prayer and one that
God answers in ways that you do not expect?  For example, if you are a
farmer and pray for rain and the drought continues, is that unanswered or
answered in a "different" way?  There are obviously numerous examples, but
I feel relatively certain that most persons with an active prayer life have
experienced something of this nature.  Anyone have any insight?



Renee Autry (SRAutry@Samford)
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Date:         Thu, 7 Jan 1993 20:54:54 GMT
From:         "Ian (Travolta) Wylie C2/Q2" <iwylie@MCS.DUNDEE.AC.UK>
Subject:      Re: Christmas

Lon Mendelsohn

In answer to your first point.  If the Lord wanted His birthday celebrated, I
believe He would have had it in His Word.  It must be said that surely Jesus'
mother Mary would have celebrated His birthday, but it is obvious to me that
the Lord didn't want the world to know when He was born.

Maybe because He knows how much of a fuss everyone would make of it.

Which agrees with the scripture you quoted.

Rather we should thank and worship God all year round.

In Christ



Ian Wylie
University of Dundee
Scotland
E-mail iwylie@uk.ac.dund.mcs
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Date:         Fri, 8 Jan 1993 08:45:45 -0600
From:         jim coen <coen@ACC.WUACC.EDU>
Subject:      Re: QUESTION ON PRAYER

"Unanswered" prayer has been a puzzle to Christians for as long as there have
been Christians. I am convinced that we will never fully understand it.
However, I feel that the Lord has dealt with me in recent years in a way that
gives me greater understanding.

Prayer is not a way for us to get OUR way while on earth. Prayer is a way for
us to accomplish GOD'S purpose while we are on the earth. We are so very
selfish in our praying (much of the time). We ask, we want, we become
puzzled or angry when we don't get what we ask for. Often times we sound like
children. Children are primarily interested in getting what THEY want. Seldom
are they the least bit interested in what the parent wants.

I believe it will revolutionize our prayers when we begin to understand the
value and importance of the "good, acceptable and perfect" will of God. The
Bible clearly promises us that when we pray according to the will of God,
we WILL have what we ask for.

The more I understand the perfection of His will, and the deception of my will,
the more clearly I see that I must learn to pray according to His will.

Jim Coen
coen@acc.wuacc.edu
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Date:         Mon, 11 Jan 1993 12:55:39 -0500
From:         "Ann M. Hathcock" <ALI00AMH@UNCCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: New CARMEN Video

Yvette,
In response to your question about the new Carman video.  The title is
"Addicted To Jesus".  There are six songs on the video with four being concept
videos.  Carman also is interviewed between the songs to express why he chose
the particular songs.  "1955" is a drama of a tent revival set during 1955.
Carman is a visiting evanagelist (sp?) who is confronting a small town.  He
wants to have a revival like the days of penticost when all men were welcome.
"Satan Bite The Dust" depicts Carman as a "zorro" type cowboy on his way to
get rid of demons of sickness, alcoholism etc. and the devil himself. "My
Turn Now" features Petra and Carman teaming up to win back our schools for
Jesus Christ.  The setting is in a school and he sings of the pressures that
teenagers face today.  "Addicted To Jesus" is a rap song with Carman and DC
Talk.  They sing about the differant addictions in society today but we need to
be addicted to Jesus.   The "Holy Ghost Hop" is song about dancing for the Lord
and "Come Into This House" is an opening song to allow the holy spirit to move.
I hope this information helps.  I would recommend this video to any audience.
It is a true professional production that depicts a great message.  I would
recommend anything that Carman has recorded because he is true warrior for the
Lord.  His concerts are especially great since he chooses to
not charge for admission.

In Christ,
Ann Hathcock
ALI00AMH@UNCCVM.Bitnet
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Date:         Tue, 12 Jan 1993 13:16:07 EST
From:         Dan Harling <harling@ROADRUNNER.PICTEL.COM>
Subject:      Re: CS Lewis - Abolition of Man 2

To those readers of the list with a slightly philosophical bent to
their thinking, and an interest in Christian apologetics (i.e., defense
of the rationality of faith), I would recommend the collection, _Six By
Lewis_, which includes the following titles:

        _The Abolition of Man_
        _The Great Divorce_
        _Mere Christianity_
        _Miracles_
        _The Problem of Pain_
        _The Screwtape Letters_

Each book is fairly short (the longest being under 200 pages) but full
of ideas and insights.  These books were instrumental in maturing my
faith while in college.  I must have read each of them a dozen times by
now.

I have very much enjoyed the recent discussion on C.S. Lewis.  Has
anyone else read these books?
____________________________________________________________________________
Daniel A. Harling                        (harling@pictel.com)
PictureTel Corp.             Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of
Peabody, MA  01960                   PictureTel Corp. (so there!)
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Date:         Fri, 8 Jan 1993 12:16:41 EST
From:         "SHELBY A. CROSS" <LIBSAC@EMUVM1.BITNET>
Subject:      RE:PRAYER REQUEST-JOELLEN

Dear JoEllen,

I have to have an MRI done every year and know exactly what Marie is going
through.  I just want to encourage you that God is in control and knows her
situation.  We will be praying for her and your family for her complete
healing.

Dear Heavenly Father,

We thank you for all your many blessings and infinite mercy.  We ask You
Father that You touch Marie and make her completely whole in Jesus Mighty
Name.  We ask that You guide the doctors and that the MRI will come out
negative.  We will give You all the praise, glory, and honor in Jesus Name.
We also ask You Father to help JoEllen to be a help and encouragement to
Marie and the family through this time.  We ask You Father to take care`
of whatever other problems she is going through and that she will have the
victory in every area of her life in Jesus Name.  We thank You in advance
for what You are doing.  In Jesus Name we pray.  Amen and Amen.

Your sister in Christ,

Shelby--
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Date:         Thu, 7 Jan 1993 12:51:21 EST
From:         Marissa Ratcliff <MRATCLIF@UGA.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: QUESTION ON PRAYER
              7 Jan 1993 12:30:32 EST from <harling@ROADRUNNER.PICTEL.COM>

Thanks Dan,

   I thought that might be the case.  However, the idea of God literally not an
swering sparked some serious brain work on my part.  It was one of those things
 that captures my attention and holds it, even when I should be working.

P.S. Thanks to everyone else who answered.


Marissa Ratcliff       Document Delivery
University of GA       Science Library
Athens, GA
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Date:         Fri, 8 Jan 1993 14:57:29 CST
From:         Yvette Traylor <YST1@DCCCDBIT.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Unanswered Prayer

Stuff deleted...
 John writes to Ian,
> I've been reading some of your other posts.  I admit that I am saddened
> by what I see.  I now intend to rebuke you somewhat.  Please remember
> that as the Scriptures teach, "A reproof entereth more into a wise man
> than a hundred strips into a fool".
>
>
 John,
I have no problem with you feeling it your Christian duty to rebuke
someone. But could you please do it in private. Ian stated that he is
new to the list and I really do believe that comments like you made to
him, will be more helpful if made privately. This goes to everyone else
who feels the need to rebuke people. Doesn't the Bible say something
"Those who sin are to be rebuked publicly." Now how did John sin. No
that's ok. You don't have to answer.

   Yvette Traylor     "We are His people and the sheep of his pasture."
   Dallas County Community College District             Psalm 100:3
   Computer Programmer/Analyst from Dallas - Texas
"I know worse things about myself that you will ever say about me." Anon
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Date:         Mon, 11 Jan 1993 12:52:58 CST
From:         Yvette Traylor <YST1@DCCCDBIT.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: contraception - a crosspost

 Stuff deleted...  Scott writes about his Uncle
>
> HOWEVER, after the SIXTH child was born they decided it was time to
> get a little better control on the situation.  They have always lived
> under the strain of barely having enough income to support their
> children, and now their 3 oldest are college age, and there is no way
> for all of them to go to school, unless they work first to pay for
> it.  I think this may not be the wisest way to plan a family in the
> age that we live.
>
  I don't know of any controceptive that is 100% sure. I have at least
2 or my FOUR kids that was conceived while taking something. From
reading my Bible I have learned that it is really God who controls this.
Because no matter how bad Sarah, Rebekah and Rachel and other wanted
children, they did not concieve until God wanted them to. And even
though Noah, and his family were in the ark for over a year, eight went
in and eight came out. Maybe I am wrong, but from reading the Bible I
get the distint impression that man is not in control of the matters
as much as he thinks he is.
Yvette

   Yvette Traylor     "We are His people and the sheep of his pasture."
   Dallas County Community College District             Psalm 100:3
   Computer Programmer/Analyst from Dallas - Texas
"I know worse things about myself that you will ever say about me." Anon
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Date:         Mon, 4 Jan 1993 13:21:09 EST
From:         "jones, mark" <JMJONES@UGA.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Late Great Planet Earth - Video

Russ, Yvette and All,
Russ, It is weird you mentioned a "Thief In The Night" because I was
getting ready to write a post about this film after reading Yvette's
message. This movie has to be one of the greatest of its genre ever made.

I first saw this film when I was about 12 years old in my youth group. At
30, I recently showed it to the beautiful group of youth which I had the
privilege of pastoring. It is just as powerful in 92 as it was in 72. The
kids did get a kick out of the bell bottoms, midriffs, sideburns and love
beads! But I think that just added to the overall effect. They were captured
by the message. It led into a great Sunday School discussion about the
end times and the return of Jesus Christ. I heartily recommend this film
to both youth and adult groups. What a powerful evangelism tool!
Has anyone else had experience with this film? It would be interesting
to know if anyone has seen the Lord use this film as I have. Thanks and
prayers.....Mark
Our local Christian bookstore has well worn rental copies of "Thief" for
a couple of bucks.
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Date:         Mon, 4 Jan 1993 13:16:33 EST
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From:         Brenda Curry-White <BSCURR01@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Late Great Planet Earth - Video

Center for Urban and Economic Research
Phone: 502-588-6626

Russ Neumeier replies to Yvette:
"It is a four-part series that starts with "A Thief in the Night" and was done
by Mark IV Productions..."

The sequel to "A Thief in the Night" is "A Distant Thunder."  I saw both of
them when I was in grade school.  Churches show them as evangelism tools, but
I think the emphasis that comes across in the first file is like "Quick,
get saved before you burn" and in the second, all the Christians get killed
in the end, so the message isn't all that positive if you ask me.  I may have
some of the details mixed up, because it has been a very long time since I saw
the movies, but I don't think it's appropriate for churches to present
Christianity as a form of "fire insurance."  If the movies dealt at all with
the relationship one has with the living God, I don't remember it, so it must
not have been all that memorable.  But I do remember being scared to death that
my mother would disappear one day when driving me down the road, or that armed
guards would come to our house one day and take me to a guillotine.  While
these things may happen (if you believe the rapture hasn't occured yet), I
don't think churches should use them to try to scare others into Christianity.
That's not what Christianity is about.  A much more positive approach to
showing how Christianity can transform lives and how Christ becomes real to
Christians is in the film "The Prodigal" by the Billy Graham Crusade.

Brenda
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Date:         Fri, 8 Jan 1993 13:40:49 CST
From:         CCCHRIS@MIZZOU1.BITNET
Subject:      Looking up

Shortly before my ex's grandma died, the Jimmy Baker scandal hit the press.
Poor Grandma was broken hearted.  She loved Jimmy and Tammy, and even in the
face of all the evidence, Grandma denied what had happened.  I understood how
she felt.  I'd enjoyed many a cup of coffee watching Jimmy Swaggart's ministry
and wow, it really hurt to find that he was a fallible human being.
I think we learn hard lessons when we elevate television evangalists too much.
IMHO, satan has a good laugh at us when he causes one of us to fall, and as
they say, the bigger they are, the harder they fall.  Maybe when we're angry
with those folks, a part of us is afraid of our own weaknesses.

Isn't it wonderful that no matter what, God will never fail us or forsake us?
Our Heavenly Father is great, and there is no name greater, or holier, or
more perfect or righteous.  In Him, we can rest assured that all will be well.

Do I hear amen?  ;-)

Chris Reed
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Date:         Mon, 11 Jan 1993 11:45:51 -0500
From:         Marissa Ratcliff <MRATCLIF@UGA.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: contraception - a crosspost
              11 Jan 1993 10:03:24 -0500 from <ewanco@MLO.DEC.COM>

Greetings Eric,

   In your post you mentioned that the RC church had good reasons for not condo
ning artifical contraceptives.  I went to a Catholic high school and took relig
ion classes for four years.  I remember something about this argument being ba
sed on the belief that sexual intercourse had a two-fold purpose : procreation
and recreation.  When we leave out on or the other, it is then that we sin.
Is this the teaching that you are referring to?  If so, I thought it was a very
 good arguement.

Marissa F. Ratcliff               Document Delivery
University of GA                  Science Library
Athens, GA
From: iwylie@MCS.DUNDEE.AC.UK (Ian (Travolta) Wylie C2/Q2)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: prayer request
Date: 7 Jan 93 18:32:28 GMT
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Via:        UK.AC.DUND.MCS;  7 JAN 93 18:31:09 GMT
Via:        glenturret.mcs.dund.ac.uk; Thu, 7 Jan 93 18:32:28 GMT

Mark praying for your father Robert Jones, may the power of blood overcome
this disease.

iwylie@uk.ac.dund.mcs
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Date:         Tue, 12 Jan 1993 09:30:57 CST
Comments:     Answering received message
From:         THERESA BLACKWELL <TBLACKWL@USMCP6.BITNET>
Subject:      Carman video review....

I believe Ann Hathcock's review of this video is great.  I have the
tape, well-actually my sister does, and we've tried to "Mime" some of its
contents-"Satan Bite the Dust" is excellent for a skit!
'Come into this House' is most excellent-some might consider it a bit
"Radical"-but I think it's one awesome tune.  'Our Turn Now" (The one
set at a highschool) is one of the BEST tunes that I've heard which deals
with teenagers' lives and what they face.
Excellent review, Ann!
Anyone who HASN'T HEARD this album...DO IT! I don't care if you have to
borrow it from friends, or go buy it yourselves.   It's worth the $9.
Theresa

 * <TBLACKWL@USMCP6.BITNET>
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Date:         Tue, 5 Jan 1993 15:50:19 -0500
From:         Braden Glen <d246@UNI05.LARC.NASA.GOV>
Subject:      from C S Lewis...

'Servile fear is, to be sure, the lowest form of religion. But a god such that
there could never be occasion for even servile fear, a "safe" god, a tame god,
soon proclaims himself to any sound mind as fantasy. I have met no people who
fully disbelieve in Hell and also had a living and life-giving belief in
heaven.'
                                        C S Lewis  _Letters to Malcolm_ ch 14

'If you read history you will find that the Christians who did most for the
present world were just those who thought most of the next. The Apostles
themselves, who set on foot the conversion of the Roman Empire, the great men
who built up the Middle Ages, the English Evangelicals who abolished the Slave
trade, all left their mark on Earth, precisely because their minds were occupied
with Heaven. It is since Christians have largely ceased to think of the other
world that they have become so ineffective in this. Aim at Heaven and you will
get earth 'thrown in':aim at earth and you will get neither.'
                                         C S Lewis  _Mere Christianity_ bk3 ch10

'We are afraid that heaven is a bribe, and that if we make it our goal we shall
no longer be disinterested. It is not so. Heaven offers nothing that a mercenary
 soul can desire. It is safe to tell the pure in heart that they shall see God,
for only the pure in heart want to. There are rewards that do not sully motives.
A man's love for a woman is not mercenary because he wants to marry her, nor his
love for poetry mercenary because he wants to read it, nor his love for exercise
less disinterested because he wants to run and leap and walk. Love, by
 definition,
seeks to enjoy its object.'
                                        C S Lewis _The Problem of Pain_ ch 10


In His Love
Glen

 Glen A Braden                           D246@uni05.larc.nasa.gov
 System Analyst                          wk 804 865-9387
 UNISYS                                  hm 804 851-6530

 'By and by when I look at His face, beautiful face, thorn scarred face,
    By and by when I look at His face, I'll wish I've given him more...'
                                              -Hymn,
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Date:         Tue, 12 Jan 1993 16:41:47 -0500
From:         Zander's Mommy <MG_BROWN@UNHH.UNH.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Contraceptives as treatment for illnesses

Just thought I'd put my two cents worth in on this issue. I am on the pill
to control my monthly cycle. Without it, I would skip several months, then have
 a period that would not stop unless I took another drug to stop it.  I am
umarried and do not use the pill for contraceptive purposes.  I feel justified
in using it for medical reasons. If I do marry, I will probably go on using
it for the medical benefits, and contraception will be a "side-effect"
  I worried about the implications of this when I first started taking them,
but I really had no medical choice. I understand the health risks associated
with oral contraceptives, am on a low-dose form, and have a yearly check-up.
I believe it is ok for someone in my situation to take them, I know God sees
my heart, and knows what is in store for my future, and as long as I trust
in Him, I will know what to do about this, when(if) I marry. I'm still
not sure where I stand on the contraception issue.  Anyway, I've
been rambling so I'll stop now.
                                In His love
                                Mel
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Date:         Thu, 7 Jan 1993 21:52:32 GMT
From:         "Ian (Travolta) Wylie C2/Q2" <iwylie@MCS.DUNDEE.AC.UK>
Subject:      Re: QUESTION ON PRAYER

Mark,

I would agree with what you said.  Any time I've sought the Lord deep down on
a matter I've ALWAYS got one.  God is faithful, thou every man be a liar.

The trouble is many times I don't ask the Lord from deep down, and thats
when things don't seem to be going forward!

In Christ,



Ian Wylie
University of Dundee
Scotland
E-mail iwylie@uk.ac.dund.mcs
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