From: miha@proteus1.UUCP (Sinisa Mihailovic)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
Subject: Re: who was in 'power' in BH (was: Re: Call It Anything but Peace)
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 92 04:51:55 EST
Organization: Proteus Communications, Washington D.C. * node 1

(Continued reply on message <BxKACt.A4z@me.utoronto.ca> to Senad Arnautovic)

>Again, you skip the history class on BH in high school in Belgrade
>(to say most politely).
>Bosnia-Hercegovina is the state as old as Serbia. The Bosnian ban
>Boric came to power in 1158, followed by Kulin 1180-1204 whose
>herald is now official herald of Republic of Bosnia-Hercegovina.
>The first king of Bosnia become Tvrtko 1353-1391 who even conquered
>most of Serbia after the death of Serbian czar Dusan.
>The last king Stjepan Tomasevic 1461-1463 surrended to Turks.
>Notice Bosnian kingdom lasted longer than Serbian which fell to
>Ottoman empire 1389.

        As for the historic classes, jumping into conclusions,  etc...,
refer to the first reply and then return to read this this one.
        When  you  do  the job, can you do it from the middle, skip the
beginning and jump over everything right to the end?
Pity...  it  would  be  so  easy.  The same is with history. As for the
excerpt  of  history you are claiming Bosnian muslims took part in, you
are  greatly  wrong or have been taught wrong: Encyclopaedia Britannica
has  something  different  to  say  for,  let's say Tvrtko: "In 1376 he
assumed  the  title  'Stephen  Tvrtko,  in Christ God King of Serbs and
Bosnia and Coastland'. He had himself crowned at Milesevo, at the grave
of St. Sava with the two crowns of Bosnia and Serbia".
        It  is  clear that he was of Orthodox faith and therefore Serb.
Similar goes for the others. As for Boghumils, you should already know
that Boghumilism originates from Russia, from the Orhodox religion.
Boghumilism  came  to  Bosnia  when  the  Boghumils were expelled from
Serbia  by Nemanja. You can look at it just as a reinforcment of Serbs
of  slightly different faith to Bosnian Serbs.  Again, all of this has
nothing  to  do  with  muslims,  except  that  it prooves that muslims
have  no  right  to  claim  the Bosnian heritage since they have never
lived in the independent and souvereign Bosnia-Herzegovina.
Bosnian  Kingdom vanished under the Turk invasion, Bosnian culture was
almost destroyed by Turks who pulled Bosnia centuries back after which
came Austro-Hungary to take what was left.

>For three centuries Bosnians of islamic confession were landords,
>with Christians having had very few acres of land.
>Those lands were unlawfully taken away from the Bosnians in 1918 by 
>Serbian-dominated Yugoslavia thru the agrar reform. I am prepared to provide
>a reference for my claim. So 60% of land is data after land-grabbing
>took place. If you use statistic data taken out of context,
>what is the reason for Serbs to claim Kosovo when population
>and land is 90% Albanian there. 

        You are greatly wrong if you are refering  to Bosnia under the
Otoman  Empire.  As for the land-grab, if there was any, how did those
muslims get their land if not from grabbing the land from the orthodox
people who were there for centuries before muslims came to Bosnia.
And should I take your explanation as a excuse for the land-grab which
Izetbegovic's government attempted?
	
>> do  If muslim Slavs want to seceede why don't give that right to the
>>others,
>         ^^^^^^^^^^^^
>All non-Serbs in BH voted out. Why did Serbs choose not to vote at all?
>Why did not they vote NO? So, you don't know how many Bosnians
>of orthodox confession would vote for YES? I would say a reasonable
>number, as well a resonable numbers of the same group fight now
>in Bosnian army, including the son of Serbian warlord Mr. Karadzic.

        "I  would"  and  "I  should" is not good  enough,  it's  called
assumption. The fact, however is that the Bosnian Serbs voted for their
own state and as far as I am informed they almost all voted for it.
        As  for  the  few dozens of Serbs fighting in so_called Bosnian
Army if  you  think  that it is a significant number then why didn't we
see that "significant number  of Serbs" showed in the propaganda, or do
you think that the government who bombs it's own people in order to get
a worlds attention wouldn't use that as splendid argument?

>>too?  Or  are  we speaking double standards, again? 

>>>the order quite well, despite the accommodations made by Muslim
>>>and Croatian parties to please the Serbs by speaking
>>>about "sovereignity" (not the same as "independence")
>>>The vote on "sovereignity" were carried out in BH parliament, attended

>>       I  am  amazed  with that kind of logic. Or are you denying the
>>Bosnian Serbs even the right  for existance and their own choices and
>>moves?  Or do you think that they can't think for themselves?

>Well, they chose Montenegro-born pshychiatrist to be their leader.
>While his professional background (worked in mentally retarded
>institutions in Sarajevo) could serve him well to design and order
>unimaginable atrocities committed by Chetniks (say, make a 6-year child
>watch his mother being raped and throat-cutted), I believe Serbs could
>choose as their leader somebody with Bosnian heritage.
>He was installed by Mr. Milosevic, anyway.

    I don't approve crime of any kind, but how much of that what you are
speaking  about is truth? If you are going to count whitnesses than just
forget  it.  There  were  greater  lies  in  this  war  than " whitness"
"testiomonies",   should   I  mention  the  famous  "bread line attack",
TV  report of Serb funeral commented as it was the muslim one, or famous
"bus attack" case and many others. How much do you know about the crimes
commited  by  muslim  side?  How about that Serbian kid stabbed with the
roast  stick,  like  an  animal - I believe pictures exist and mother is
maybe  still  alive.  Or  what about the masacre in Kupres - people with
their's  throats  slit,  skulls crushed and hands cut, I have seen those
horible  pictures  for  myself,  medical  analysys  is done and families
identified  the bodies (which was really hard to do because they were so
horribly mutilated). What about Serbian children in muslim-held camps?
    There  is no doubt, horryble crimes are being done on daily basis by
sick  people  and  criminals.  But is it morally right to use those poor
victims  as  an  object  of  propaganda?  Not to mention that presenting
crimes  of  own side as other side's crimes is unspeakable crime, not to
mention crimes comitted on innocent children...

>>all the territories they own, and little bit more, and don't give a damn
>>what Serbia and Yugoslavia think about it?

>You think so? Just cut the economic, military and personnel help
>pouring in from Serbia and Karadzic is gone in days.

>>If it was for Serbia to object  Bosnia's independence, why did it 
>>completely pull Serbian contigent of YPA soldgiers to Serbia and
>>transformed the army so that it better suits the defense purposes?

>What about the HUGE stockpile of weapons left by YPA. Keep in mind
>that Bosnians, thru their taxes, contributed to purchase/manufacture
>of the arms and should have received the proportional share.

    You  do  really  believe  that  Serbia  is  backing  Bosnian   Serbs
militarily  and  in  personell,  do  you? How do you explain that Serbia
pulled  the Serbian contigent of soldgiers from Bosnia, then? How do you
explain  that  Serbian offer to UN for monitoring each military unit was
never  accepted? How come that Bosnian Serbs get receive strong aviation
from  Yugoslav Army? As for the argument that YNA left the arms to Serbs
it  is  groundless  for  anyone  who  knows how principle of territorial
defense  worked.  Telling  that  Bosnian  muslims  are  unarmed  is also
ridiculous because they were the part of that same territorial defense.
Keep  in mind that YNA has built significant part of Bosnia-Herzegovina,
mainly parts where muslims live. What about that?

>>me about the "attacks from Serbia" what was denied each time when the
>>BH government tried to draw the world's attention with false claims,  
>>UN   organizations,  observers,  etc...  I  should  count  there  non- 
>>death-camps or even detention camps for muslim Slavs in Serbia.
>                     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>The whole world saw clips made by western reporters. If you don't
>want to admit, that your problem. It reminds me of some nazi
>guys who claim holocaust of Jews did not exist.

      Clips  of  what?  Detention camps in Serbia? Where?  What are you
talking  about?? The whole world was informed that the alleged camps in
Serbia don't exist. Western agencies, even CIA also reported that there
are  no  Serb-held  death-camps.
They did  it shyly as it is always the case in this propaganda war, but
they  did   it.  Do  you  know  how many accusations from Izetbegovic's
government are being produced daily. UNHCR, UNPROFOR, S. Vance, D. Owen
and  number  of  various organizations cruised through Serbia searching
for  camps  and  they  have found nothing. So, once again, what are you
talking about, who is feeding you with those lies?

>>If you are American-born muslim Slav, then it's about the time to take

>I am in Toronto, Canada. Canada is not USA. I am a proud Bosnian

   Still is America (continent), North-America, precisely... You should
know where you live.

>having lived in Sarajevo for 25 years. But my Sarajevo, where people
>lived, worked, loved each other without regard whose ethnic group
>one belongs to, is still alive despite the shelling by Chetniks
>who share the same biggotry as you do. So please do not mention
>that you lived in Sarajevo, you do not belong to Sarajevo,
>your heart is not there.

      Oh, yeah. My heart is in what was Yugoslavia. You people destroyed
it. Did you ever think about it? Do you even have a slightest idea about
how  many  people in former Yugoslavia have at least one relative on the
other  side?  As  for the belonging to Sarajevo, if your hart was really
there  and  if  you  really  believed in what you are talking about, you
would be there, so please let's change the subject.

>> that map in your hands and study a little where is Serbia.

>It is east of the Drina river. BH was never Serbia, never will it be.

     Well, I didn't say that it will be Serbia, but it should be divided
in  ethnic  cantons,  I  simply don't see any better solution which will
bring peace. Fragile, but still a peace.

>> And strongest argument about all this is:if it really wanted to
>> make greater Serbia, Serbia could have 
>>chewed  Bosnia-Herzegovina  for  breakfast, will all the arms and humanpower
>>has,  lot before the Bosnia was recognized (so it was under the jurisdiction
>>YPA,  was  it. As  for  the  world  recognition,  many  of the countries whi
>>represent something in todays world, already stated that the recognition of 
>>Bosnia-Herzegovina was premature and pushed by Germany, as I recall.

>Yeah, like Zimbabwe or PR China. How many states did recognise Serboslavia?

      What is your point here? Or is it too hard to answer the question
that  I asked above, or you too, see that there is no any logic in what
you try  to proove? As for the recognition of Yugoslavia, it can mostly
be  thanked  to  the  Islamic  friends  of  Bosnia- Herzegovina who are
blackmailing  the  world (and really big powers) with the oil, military
bases, etc...  Can't wait the day when some nice, clean source of power
will replace oil ;)

>Senad Arnautovic

-- miha