From: shortell@spock.ecs.umass.edu (Laurel L Shortell)
Newsgroups: soc.women
Subject: Re: Men Are Not Cost Effective
Date: 16 Apr 92 01:52:56 GMT
Article-I.D.: risky.1992Apr16.015256.17081
Organization: University of Massachusetts, Amherst

In article <1992Apr15.192132.16286@midway.uchicago.edu> gross@befvax.uchicago.edu writes:
>In article <1992Apr15.171519.21634@risky.ecs.umass.edu>, shortell@risky.ecs.umass.edu (Laurel L Shortell) writes:
>>In article <1992Apr10.213016.6513@watserv1.waterloo.edu> dmcanzi@watserv1.waterloo.edu (David Canzi) writes:
>>>
>>>Actually, men have been told that it is our duty, when another man
>>>makes a sexist joke or remark, to rebuke him.  Ie.  We have been held
>>>to blame for the attitudes of other men unless we actively applied peer
>>>pressure to influence their attitudes in the "proper" direction.
>>>
>>
>>If you are in a conversation with another man who makes
>>sexist or racist or homophobic comments while talking
>>to you, then you are implicitly supporting his views
>>if you do not call him on it. 

>In your example the person saying the oppressive things is male
>(He, him, etc), even though you say you apply the reasoning to anyone.

I was trying to be consistent with my initial response to the poster.
Since I referred to him with other males in my first sentence, I
continued with that example throughout my post. Everything I said
can also be said for people of either gender hanging out with other
people of either gender.

>Do you apply the same reasoning when a womens' group says things
>about men?  Have you 'called them on it?'

I actually have in some cases when generalizations have been made.
While I agree with lots of women that many men say and do
reprehensible things and have historically had societal support
for these actions, I like to point out that there are a number
of men who are sensitive to these issues and who sincerely want
to change this situation. I have known a few of these men.

>When I was the only man in a group, the women never 'called'
>each other on their comments, only I did, and only after a while,
>when the respected me enough not to call me names for 'calling'
>them on it.  

You need to realize that as a man, you may not be the right
person to "call" a woman on these kinds of issues due to the
power dynamic granted you by the above societal support. While
you may at times have been treated badly by women due to your
gender, you do not suffer the overwhelming societal discrimination
that is enacted on women in their daily lives. You may experience
this in other areas of your life, but I do not know any more about
you than what I read in your post.

>And it is for the exact reason that you give above that men (on
>net and elsewhere) ask feminists whether they agree with or support
>certain views of Dworkin, Brownmiller, MacKinnon, etc., for by not
>criticizing them while identifying themselves as feminists, according
>to your argument, they are implicitly supporting their views.

A great many feminists support the views of these women, but you
cannot make the above statement unless you know whether or
not the feminists in question have read these works. Some have,
some haven't. You would have to ask.

Laurel
Newsgroups: soc.women,soc.men