From: ljmorly@polaris.utu.fi (Laura Johanna Manninen)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Almah in Isa 7: 14
Date: 10 Jan 93 17:27:18 GMT
	<LJMORLY.93Jan7201038@polaris.utu.fi> <fXH0MpQ@quack.sac.ca.us>
Organization: University of Turku

In article <fXH0MpQ@quack.sac.ca.us> pharvey@quack.sac.ca.us (Paul Harvey) writes:
> In article <LJMORLY.93Jan7201038@polaris.utu.fi> 
> ljmorly@polaris.utu.fi (Laura Johanna Manninen) writes:
> >In article <fXDHi6C@quack.sac.ca.us> 
> pharvey@quack.sac.ca.us (Paul Harvey) writes:
> >> In article <LJMORLY.93Jan6195742@polaris.utu.fi> 
> >> ljmorly@polaris.utu.fi (Laura Johanna Manninen) writes:
> >> >"For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government 
> >> >will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Councellor,
> >> >Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."  - Yeshaya 9:5 (9:6)
> >> By the way, on the off chance that you're interested in the original
> >> word, here is a faithful translation of the Masorah and Qumran texts:
> >> JPS Tanakh, ISBN: 0-8276-0252-9:
> >> Isaiah9:5
> >> 	For a child has been born to us,
> >> 	A son has been given us.
> >> 	And authority has settled on his shoulders.
> >> 	He has been named
> >> 	"The Mighty God is planning grace;(d)
> >> 	The Eternal Father, a peacable ruler" -
> >> ----
> >> d: As in 25.1
> >The beginning is more or less correct, but from 'He has been named' 
> >onwards...
> >'Vayikra shmo Pele Yoetz El Gibbor Avi Ad Sar Shalom'
> >vayikra shmo = and he will be called
> >pele = miracle, wonderfull
> >yoetz = councellor
> >El = God
> >gibbor = hero (as an adjective 'mighty')
> >avi = my father
> >ad = to everlasting
> >sar = prince, ruler, minister
> >shalom = peace
> >'And he will be called Wonderfull (,) Councellor, Mighty God, Everlasting
> >Father, Prince of Peace.'
> >> It seems that Christianity is full of propaganda which doesn't
> >> necessarily nullify the religion, but it seems one should wonder why such
> >> zealous marketing techniques are required to sell what is supposed to be
> >> the truth. If one seeks the truth, one should do so truthfully,
> >> otherwise one only fools oneself. If one seeks propaganda, there are
> >> always those who will sell it.
> >You are wrong... As I showed you, my translations are correct, yours 
> >aren't, so why not think for a while whose "religion" has to use
> >some special techniques.

> Your translation strikes me as a bit limited, but you would be the judge
> of such things. Perhaps you see what others do not or perhaps you have
> forced yourself into seeing what is not there.

This is a funny charge. I gave you the meaning for the words 'Pele Yoetz'
(~'Wonderfull Councellor') -- the part which your translation ignores
altogether sticking instead some other stuff in there. Even Rob Strom 
has a better, albeit not a correct translation: 'Wonderfull Councellor 
of the Mighty God'. 
 
> In either case, I wonder if
> you might take a crack at v.25.1, noting a simularity. FYI, JPS:TANAKH:
> Isaiah v.25.1
> O LORD, You are my God;
> I will extol You, I will praise Your name.
> For You planned graciousness(a) of old,
  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Counsels of steadfast faithfulness.
  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> ----
> a: See 9.5

'Ki asita pele etzot merachok emuna omen'

'For in perfect faithfulness you have done marvellous things, things
planned long ago.'

Aw get yourself a better translation ! Your version would be something
like 'Ki tichnanta chesed mikedem etzot emuna omen'. 

- Laura
--
"For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government 
will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Councellor,
Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."  - Yeshaya 9:5 (9:6)
 
"To the Jews who had believed him, Yeshua said, "If you hold to my
teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth,
and the truth will set you free.""   - Yochanan 8:32-33