HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Re: Vikings (Berserkers)
From: briand@anasaz (Brian Douglass)
Date: 11 Aug 92 18:19:06 GMT
Organization: Anasazi, Inc.  Phoenix, Az

In article <1992Aug10.204012.22840@acuson.com> miklg@acuson.com (Michael Goldman ) writes:
>tedrick@whistle.Berkeley.EDU (Tom Tedrick) writes:
>
>>"sea warrior". The Vikings were well armed, and an immense joy
>>in battle breathes through the earliest Norse literature, which
>
[deleted stuff]
>>even to North America. Conquests took place in Ireland, Scotland,
>>Germany, France, and England. 
>
>	Is "conquest" the right word or would "settlement" be more
>	appropriate?  Might one be able to explain the raids as
>	due to population expansion?

Conquest and settlement are both correct.  In Ireland, ~800 AD Vikings
raided villages by sailing up rivers.  Later on, Vikings settled in Ireland
intermingling with the local populations.  In Dublin, many Irish made
alliances with the Vikings.  Eventually, in ~1000 AD, King Brian of Boru
attacked Dublin from the south and expelled the Vikings, dieing in the
battle.

So, they raided, they settled, the conquered.  Whatever was most
appropriate for the situation.

>
>	- Michael Goldman
>
>-- 
>"History teaches us that men and nations behave wisely once they have
>exhausted all other alternatives." - Abba Eban
>	Disclaimer:  All views are solely my own & not the views of Acuson.
>	<sun!sono!miklg>  or  [miklg@acuson.com]


-- 
"Fifty years after Waterloo Napoleon was as much a hero to English school 
children as Wellington.  How do we know our grandchildren won't idolize Von 
Hindenburg? If only we could learn to look on evil AS evil, whether it's clothed
in filth, monotony or magnificence." F. Scott Fitzgerald, This Side of Paradise
Brian Douglass		briand@anasazi.com 	602-870-3330 X657
Newsgroups: soc.history,soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: markf@sco.COM (mark forry)
Subject: Re: Irony continues in our history
Organization: The Santa Cruz Operation, Inc.
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 20:01:00 GMT


In article <1992Aug12.104602.14659@husc3.harvard.edu> stojanov@husc10.harvard.edu (Milan Stojanovic) writes:
>
>[stuff deleted]
>Stalingrad.  Some Croats captured there, changed quickly sides and 
>went back to Yugoslavia under the command of col. Mesich to fight for
>partisans ( alternative was Gulag ). 

I'd just like to point out that many of the combatants serving
in Yugoslavia during World War II were drafted.  One Croatian
man of my acquaintance served in four armies:  Croatian (i.e.,
Domobranci), German, French (Resistance), and Yugoslav.  In each
case he was drafted, in some cases at gunpoint.  I understand
that this was not uncommon during World War II, and I wouldn't
be surprised if the same was going on in the current Yugoslav
war.

This is worth mentioning because there's a lot of discussion
here about how many of who's people fought on which side when,
and the results of the arguments seem to be aimed at showing
that one side or the other was inately more or less moral.  My
suspicion is that then and now, a lot of the people involved in
the fighting just want to be left alone but through dint of
circumstance are swept into the conflict.

This is not to defend the real acts of terrorism and barbarism
that we hear about on a daily basis.  I do have a sense, though,
that a relatively small group has unleashed the dogs of war and
that a huge number of people are being pulled in against their
will.

-- 
Mark Forry                I liked it better when healing the planet 
Technical Publications    meant long hair and rock music and marching 
The Santa Cruz Operation  against the war, when it meant telling
uunet!sco!markf           everyone else what needed to be changed.
markf@sco.COM                           -- Sy Safransky
(408) 427-7509            Standard disclaimers apply.
From: stank@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (Stan Krieger)
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Re: What is it with the Balkans?
Date: 13 Aug 92 16:45:34 GMT
Organization: Summit NJ

>Some hints: could Mr. Cash list the mass expulsions of Jews from Western
>Europe which led to their settlement in Eastern Europe? 

The two that I can think of are-

    1.	The migration of Jews from the Rhine River area to Poland
	in the late 1000's and early 1100's as a result of the 
	pogroms by the Crusaders (it was the "Why do we have to go
	the Holy Land when there are Christkillers are right here?"
	mentality).

    2.	The expulsion of the Jews from Spain effective August 1, 1492
	resulted in a large migration to Turkey and a smaller one
	to Romania.
-- 
Stan Krieger                     All opinions, advice, or suggestions, even
AT&T UNIX System Laboratories    if related to my employment, are my own.
Summit, NJ
smk@usl.com
From: vhspet01@uctvax.uct.ac.za (Peter van Heusden)
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Re: Vikings (Berserkers)
Date: 12 Aug 92 13:18:55 +0200
Organization: University of Cape Town

In article <1992Aug11.011347.10567@kth.se>, d89-jsp@nada.kth.se (Jan Sparrendahl) writes:
> the forrest with trees ap to the knees. The berserks were despised by 
> other Vikings and the use of this drug was not common. Exactly what
Were the beserks not despised because they were tied to the cult of Odin?
The cult of Odin seems to have been quite feared, understandably, since they
took a rather all or nothing approach to life... I would think this, and not
the mushroom, is the reason for the beserks being unpopular. Also, I take
issues with the word 'despised'. Feared yes, but despised? It must be
remembered that the only good accounts of the Viking/Early Germanic culture
occur after the rise of Christianity in Europe.
> 
> Arthur

Peter
 
*******************************************************************************
Peter van Heusden              "She was screaming as she fell
UCTVAX, Cape Town                But I never heard her hit"
vhspet01@uctvax.uct.ac.za                                  Violent Femmes
*******************************************************************************
Newsgroups: soc.history,rec.arts.books
From: cash@convex.com (Peter Cash)
Subject: Re: "The Black Death", by Philip Ziegler
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1992 19:23:15 GMT
Organization: The Instrumentality
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

In article <1992Aug14.165903.29670@cs.ucla.edu> reiher@pram.cs.ucla.edu (Peter Reiher) writes:

>"The Black Plague" is only worth reading if you have a pretty serious
>interest in the subject.  It offers little to reward readers who
>are looking for a history book that brings a period to life, or makes
>the reader understand an important topic better.  At only 230 pages,
>with many illustrations and fairly large type, it does not take too
>long to get through, and Ziegler's style is straightforward and
>easy, if not very entertaining, so I can recommend the book to those
>with a moderate desire to learn more about the Black Death.  If you
>have no interest in the subject, the book has little to offer you.

I think that's essentially right, though I seem to have enjoyed the book
more than you. All those dry statistics add up to a pretty horrifying
picture, if you try to imagine it. Still, I was surprised by one aspect of
the Black Death that Ziegler brought out, and of which I was not aware:
that the plague actually had some beneficial effects. For some of the
survivors, at any rate, life was better after the plague than before.
Before the plague, resources were scarce; after the depopulation of Europe,
there was more than enough to go around. Thus, the plague indirectly caused
a rise in the European standard of living--which may, in turn, have
contributed to the period of technological advance and expansion that
followed. 

I'd always wondered what would have happened if the plague had _not_ swept
Europe--I had always supposed that having all those scholars and
administrators killed off must have retarded Europe's advance. Now it seems
that I had it backwards--the renaissance might not have been possible
without the Black Death.

What a horrible thought--I can say that the death of nearly half of the
people in Europe had its good side! How do you balance individual
suffering against events on a historical scale? 
-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
             |      Die Welt ist alles, was Zerfall ist.     |
Peter Cash   |       (apologies to Ludwig Wittgenstein)      |cash@convex.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: grayt@Software.Mitel.COM (Tom Gray)
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Re: What is it with the Balkans?
Date: 14 Aug 92 20:15:49 GMT
Organization: Mitel. Kanata (Ontario). Canada.

In article <56693@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> jewell@mace.cc.purdue.edu (Larry Jewell) writes:
>In article <1992Aug12.175413.4196@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk> jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin) writes:
>>
>>It still has a bloody long way to go before equalling the viciousness of
>>American race relations, which includes the total extermination of whole
>>Indian tribes, castration as a means of social control on slave plantations,
>>and the Civil War...
>
>This is clearly a result of the example set by the society that produced the
>ruling classes in America.
>


The only extermination that I am aware of is that of the Beothuk people
in Newfoundland which was accomplished by the UK government. 

At least this is the only people exterminated by Europeans. The Iroquios
did exterminate the Tobacco and Neutral tribes during their war
with the Hurons.

Were there any others?









.
-- 
i.sinature
From: kkniaz@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Krzysztof W. Kniaz)
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Re: It's useless!
Date: 19 Aug 92 20:08:36 GMT
Organization: University of Pennsylvania

In article <1992Aug19.110446.1@acad3.alaska.edu> fsars@acad3.alaska.edu (Allen R Sparks) writes:

>Bad idea.  Two wrongs don't make a right.  Also, Mutlu could very well

OK. I give in; looks like I can only relay on my good, old kill file...




--

Krzysztof Kniaz, University of Pennsylvania | If you can't learn  
Lab for Research on the Structure of Matter | to do it well,
Philadelphia, PA, 19104, USA                | learn to enjoy doing it badly.
From: je10+@andrew.cmu.edu (James Brian Endres)
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: What to read?
Date: 23 Aug 92 08:17:08 GMT
Article-I.D.: andrew.weZvc4G00WB7Q2WaAm
Organization: Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA


I'm interested in going back and reading a pretty comprehensive
overview of human history. I've got and a library copy of Wells' _The
Outline of History_. (Already read _A Short History of the World_.)
Toynbee strikes me as an evangelical racist.  I'd be willing to tackle
something like Durant, but I get the impression that he's shackled by,
basically, having started in the twenties: the early archaeological
stuff has been supplanted, and the approach is necessarily
Eurocentric.

Can anyone recommend anything of that scope that is more recent and
addresses those failings? Thanks in advance if you can help.

Thanks,
Jimmer.
From: cash@convex.com (Peter Cash)
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Re: Civil War:  Battle Hymn of the Republic
Date: 14 Aug 92 15:02:09 GMT
Organization: The Instrumentality
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX ComputerCorp. The 
 opinions expressed are those of the user andnot necessarily those of CONVEX.

In article <11756@optilink.UUCP> cramer@optilink.UUCP (Clayton Cramer) writes:
...
>school -- the subsequent verses were subversive and dangerous
>to secular thought, including such dangerous ideas as: "As
>Christ died to make men holy, let us die to make men free."

Hmm...Recently, I've seen versions in print that say, "let us _live_ to
make men free." A bit less dramatic, that. (Probably, it will soon be
changed to "let us work to permit the free expression of all persons".)
...
>There are amusing variants of "Battle Hymn of the Republic"
>sung by schoolchildren throughout the U.S., including such
>memorable first verses as:
>
>    Mine eyes have seen the glory of the burning of the school,
>    We have fired all the teachers and broken every rule.

I always sang it as "We have _tortured_ all the teachers..."

But then I was a kinky kid. 

-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
             |      Die Welt ist alles, was Zerfall ist.     |
Peter Cash   |       (apologies to Ludwig Wittgenstein)      |cash@convex.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Newsgroups: soc.history
From: jmc@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (John McCarthy)
Subject: Re: Civil War:  Battle Hymn of the Republic
Reply-To: jmc@cs.Stanford.EDU
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University
	<22828@hacgate.SCG.HAC.COM> <BsyA0u.5uv@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>
Date: 13 Aug 92 20:36:21

According to the Britannica, Daniel Decatur Emmett (1815-1904) was
born in Ohio and wrote Dixie in 1859.  Julia Ward Howe was born in
New York, married a Bostonian and died in Rhode Island.
--
John McCarthy, Computer Science Department, Stanford, CA 94305
*
He who refuses to do arithmetic is doomed to talk nonsense.
From: fsars@acad3.alaska.edu (Allen R Sparks)
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Re: kill files (again)
Date: 12 Aug 92 17:32:45 GMT
Article-I.D.: acad3.1992Aug12.093245.1
Organization: University of Alaska Fairbanks

In article <SMITTIE.92Aug11165542@lark.csulb.edu>, smittie@beach.csulb.edu (Smittie) writes:
> Thank you for your kind reply. It has been correctly pointed out that this
> question about kill files, originally posted by me, should have been directed
> to a techie news group. I apologize for my transgression but would like to
> point out that my post, along with seeking information, carried an implied
> statement intended for this group, or at least a few select members who see fit
> to cross-post their ramblings to several unrelated or loosely related groups. I
> have to wonder why I am chastise while others with far more numerous
> transgressions are not.

That's been tried before, and all it does is start flame wars about
the ethics of kill files.  You see, there's people out there who think
kill files are unethical, and are willing to argue about it.  I don't
mind, as long as they take it to news.misc.  === Al Sparks
Newsgroups: soc.history
From: trev@hubcap.clemson.edu (Trevor Bauknight)
Subject: Question on 1783 Treaty of Paris, regarding South Carolina
Organization: Jes Grew Carriers -- Metaphysical Bunko Squad 
Distribution: na
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 04:22:44 GMT

I read in alt.war.civil.usa that the Treaty of Paris recognized the
states of Georgia and South Carolina as sovereign, independent states.
I looked this up in my encyclopedia, but it made no mention of this.
As I have not been able to check this out at the library, because of
its funny summer hours, could someone please post (or e-mail) the
text of this portion of the document?  I would very much appreciate
it.  I realize that this was a particularly chaotic period in the
history of the U.S., but I am curious about why the two states
were considered independent in 1783.  Thanks in advance...
  
 
Trevor Bauknight         trev@hubcap.clemson.edu    ...gatech!hubcap!trev
 
                                                     +-----------+
                                                     | _> ###    |
                  fish on                            |     |     |
                                                     +-----------+
Newsgroups: soc.history
From: c34657b@saha.hut.fi (Tuomas Viljanen)
Subject: Re: Chinese Meet Romans?
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1992 17:58:56 GMT

In article <1992Aug21.172229.8035@acuson.com> miklg@acuson.com (Michael Goldman ) writes:

>Might China have become as fragmented by contending groups in the
>2nd century as they were in the early 20th?  Could the Romans
>have found some puppets able to raise armies on their behalf?

Certainly ! The Han empire, in fact, split up 220 AD in three kingdoms; Wei, 
Shu and Wu. Wu later conquered the three others, becoming the Zin empire, 
which lasted till 420 AD. This in turn spilt into northern and southern states,
both of which had a number of political changes before the whole China was re-
unified as the Sui empire (590-620), which was overthrown by Tang dynasty.
Tang lasted until 900 when it collapsed and the state fell into an interregnum,
known as the Five Dynasties and Ten Independent States, before China was unif-
ied again under the Sung dynasty.

One can just imagine the opportunities a Macchiavellian politician like Caesar
or someone similar would have had in that country. Seems like the Chinese have
only two forms of rulership: dictatorship or anarchy... :-)

>- Michael Goldman

  ++ Tuomas Viljanen                     ++ For a battle like Crecy, you do  ++
  ++ Lahderanta 20 A 19                  ++ not need a military genius like  ++
  ++ SF-02720 Espoo 72 FINLAND           ++ Edward III. All you need is an   ++
  ++ 358-0-592175 or c34657b@saha.hut.fi ++ idiot like the Duke of Alencon.  ++
From: fr@compu.com (Fred Rump from home)
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Re: What is it with the Balkans?
Date: 13 Aug 92 15:38:27 GMT
Organization: CompuData Inc.

cash@convex.com (Peter Cash) writes:


>I'm beginning to think that nobody in this newsgroup can discuss anything
>without getting hot under the collar about it.

It is a shame. I used to enjoy reading soc.history but now it simply reminds 
me of talk.misc.ethnic.general - really a bunch of nonsense. 
fred
-- 
W. Fred Rump 	office:	   fred@COMPU.COM     'mans feet have grown/so big 
26 Warren St.   home: fred@icdi10.compu.com  that he/forgets his littleness'
Beverly, NJ. 08010                          		Don Marquis 
609-386-6846    bang:uunet!cdin-1!icdi10!fr   
Newsgroups: soc.history
From: diarmuid@uniwa.uwa.edu.au (Diarmuid Pigott)
Subject: Re: England since 1688
Organization: University of Western Australia
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 03:53:59 GMT

Correction -  not Elector of Hanover -  slip of the neuron etc.

The subsequent posters have explained all anyway.
Newsgroups: soc.history
From: mss2@quads.uchicago.edu (Michael S. Schiffer)
Subject: Re: What happened in 1419?
Keywords: "we shall not see them relit in our lifetime"
Reply-To: mss2@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1992 02:23:54 GMT

In article <okafm47@Unify.Com> ceb@dbrus.Unify.Com (Caroline E. Bryan) writes:
>In article <171m7kINNetf@agate.berkeley.edu> sachs@lhasa.berkeley.edu (Rainer Sachs) writes:
>>>>In article <jessica.20@pres.jsc.nasa.gov> jessica@pres.jsc.nasa.gov (Jessica Dickerson) writes:
>>>>
>>>>>  A while ago, someone mentioned that he/she remembered numbers by 
>>>>>interpreting them as dates.  Well, I friend of mine has just received
>>>>>a phone number which can be used as a (past) date. So...
>>>> 
>>>>>What happened in 1419?
>>
>>>>  Good King Wenceslas died.
>>
>>1. Absolutely nothing happened in 1419 ... Wenceslas is a red herring. 
>
>King Wenceslas, emperor of the Holy Roman Empire, King of Bohemia, and saint
>canonized by the Catholic Church, died in 1419.  Webster's New World Diction-
>ary, 2nd ed., p. 1614.

My goodness!  Mr. Jewell pulled your leg and it appears to have come
off in his hand.  :-)  Didn't you get suspicious when he asserted that
the entire year had been cancelled in September?  Not to mention the
stuff about 1914?

Mike
-- 
Michael S. Schiffer, LHN, FCS	"Workers of the world, forgive me.
mss2@midway.uchicago.edu	 You had more to lose than I thought."
mike.schiffer@um.cc.umich.edu	 -- Karl Marx (1990) as imagined by
mss2@usite-next.uchicago.edu     Jim Koncz (konc@midway.uchicago.edu)
Newsgroups: soc.history
From: jwp@panix.com (JongWoo Park)
Subject: England since 1688
Summary: Reading list wanted
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 02:18:25 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Unix, NYC



Hello netters?

I am taking a history course titled "England since 1688" this fall.
Are there any good books I can read as preparation for the above mentioned
course?   Preferablely something that can be usually found in a college
library.
( The history department did not have any reading list on the
course as others have. )

Thank you for your help.
PS: You can either post or e-mail me.
PPS: What's the significance of year 1688 in England?
-----
Jongwoo Park                                                  jwp@panix.com
From: cohen@cumuli.vmsmail.ethz.ch (Mark Cohen)
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Re: England since 1688
Date: 18 Aug 92 11:58:50 GMT
Organization: Dept. Chemistry, Swiss Federal Institute of Technology (ETH)
Originator: mark@agnew

In article <1992Aug18.075152.5135@uniwa.uwa.edu.au> diarmuid@uniwa.uwa.edu.au
Diarmuid Pigott writes:

>The Glorious Revolution - the overthrow of James II by the Parliament by
>peaceful means (as opposed to what happened to Charles I (execution),
>and the invitation of the Elector of Hanover to the throne (because of
>his wife Mary), and hence the establishment of a truly parliamentaary
>system of govt. in England.

The Glorious Revolution was the beginning of the establishment of the
parliamentary system that is used in Britain today. The monarch invited over
was William of Orange, who was indeed husband of James' daughter Mary. He
also happened to be the son of a daughter of Charles I and so had a very good
claim on the throne in his own right. The Glorious Revolution was peaceful in
England consisting of William landing in Devon with some troops and marching
mostly unopposed to London. James recognizing the inevitable ran away to
France, but not before throwing the seal of England into the Thames, perhaps
believing that the country could not be run without the ornaments of power.
In Scotland things were not so peaceful. Opposition amongst some of the
catholic clans resulted in the massacre of Glen Coe some time later.
William and Mary had no children and were succeeded by Mary's sister Anne.
Anne did not marry. The Elector of Hanover (George I of England) became king
of England in 1714 after the death of Anne. He was the great-grandson of
James I (and VI of Scotland).
From: etxmow@garboc34.ericsson.se (Mats Winberg)
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Cannibalism in China
Date: 20 Aug 92 12:24:59 GMT
Distribution: soc
Organization: Ericsson



    Recently, I have stirred up feelings in soc.culture.china
    by referring to an article in the largest morning paper in Sweden
    "Dagens Nyheter" by a Mr Zheng Yi who claims that many cases of
    cannibalism occurred in the province of Guangxi during the Cultural
    Revolution. He also claims that the communist party not only failed
    to stop it, but also condoned it. For details see the posts in
    s.c.c. My question is: Are there any other references to cannibalism
    in China during the Cultural Revolution except for Mr. Zheng Yi's ?
    Is he published in the English-speaking world, and if so where ?


    Mats Winberg
    etxmow@tore.ericsson.se
Xref: sparky soc.history:7454 soc.culture.nordic:5135