HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: martin@minster.york.ac.uk
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Media coverage (Electronic Engineer Times) Portability?
Date: 21 Jul 92 22:10:28 GMT
Organization: Department of Computer Science, University of York, England

In comp.os.os2.advocacy Hauke Hess says:
> > | 32-bit I/O drivers          X                               X
> 
> Yes, OS/2 has 32Bit IO drivers also!

Oh yes? I've got the OS/2 PDD reference, and they don't look very 32-bit
to me - except the virtual drivers for DOS boxes - but who wants DOS anyway :-)!

> > | Available on non-X86                                        X
> 
> OS/2 will be available on non X86 this fall.

Ah now! This is rapidly becoming my biggest problem with OS/2 (1 month ago
I was classed around here as an OS/2 fanatic, so don't think I started
prejudiced against OS/2 - in fact the opposite is true!)

Ok, so OS/2 will be on `non x86' machines this fall. I have no reason to
disbelieve this. But *which* non x86 machines will it be? Will it be open
architecture machines based around CPUs that anyone can buy, and hence clone,
or will it be on RS6000 based machines? Will RS6000 chips be available to
clone manufacturers? Or will IBM and Apple be the only people making these
machines? Neither company are well known for producing low cost machines.

NT will be available on x86, MIPS, and soon afterwards on Alpha. All of which
can be bought by anyone, and built into machines by anyone - hence there is
likely to be competition between these machine manufacturers which will keep
the price down (how much less does a clone cost than a PS/2?). Of course
the RS6000 *might* also be easy to buy, and assuming IBM don't have awkward
conditions (a la microchannel liciencing) we might get RS6000 clones too,
but then what is to stop Microsoft, or some enterprising 3rd party, from
porting NT to the RS6000? (Note that DEC are doing the port to Alpha, not
Microsoft) 

The *big* advantage of going with Microsoft - and God knows there
are reasons *not* to want to go with Microsoft - is that Microsoft do not
make processors or machines, and hence do not have a reason to lock users
into any particular (hardware) architecture. Just look what happened to Unix
once AT&T started trying to sell computers!

That's the market analysis :-), quite apart from that NT has *as standard*
features which I was losing alot of sleep over trying to work out how to do
under OS/2 - in fact I asked the net for ideas, and got no helpful replies
at all! I just hope they work!

Martin
INTERNET: martin@minster.york.ac.uk
JANET:  martin@uk.ac.york.minster
surface:
        Dr. Martin C. Atkins
        Dept. of Computer Science
        University of York
        Heslington
        York YO1 5DD
        ENGLAND
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
From: eric@tfs.com (Eric Smith)
Subject: FAQ?  MS email address?
Organization: TFS
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1992 13:49:41 GMT


Is there a FAQ list for this newsgroup?

What is the Microsoft email address for ordering the NT SDK and a
subscription to MSJ?

What is the most cost-effective brand of CD-ROM drive, and the best
place to order one?  (I assume the SDK is only available on CD-ROM?)

Will the present version support C++ programs that use more than 16 MB
of memory?  Can it avoid swapping by using more than 16 MB physical
memory?  With the ISA bus, or just with busses that allow direct DMA to
all of physical memory?
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 14:18:17 EDT
From: <F0O@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: 1 Thing Windows can do but OS/2 can't.
 <92206.092436F0O@psuvm.psu.edu> <92210.143135ASI509@DJUKFA11.BITNET>

In article <92210.143135ASI509@DJUKFA11.BITNET>, ASI509@DJUKFA11.BITNET says:

>In article <92206.092436F0O@psuvm.psu.edu>, F0O@psuvm.psu.edu says:
>>
>>In article <92206.132915ASI509@DJUKFA11.BITNET>, ASI509@DJUKFA11.BITNET says:
>>
>>> ^^^^
>>>  Really ? Sell ? To whom ? If in the cheapest computer shop in town I can`t
>>>  get a PC without it? So if I leave it there I pay the same as if I take
>it.
>>>  What`s the price then? Precisely ZERO $, DM or whatever. I wish they would
>>>  sell cars :-)
>>
>>   You think Microsoft is giving Windows away?  I hardly doubt it.  You
>>think you're getting all that software that comes with a machine for free?
>>Again, I seriously doubt it.  Simply because it was the same price whether
>>you left Windows or not, doesn't make it free.  The dealer probably just
>>makes a little more profit, since he can probably re-sell it.
>>

>So I think some other dealer could sell me a cheaper machine. I would even buy
>it in pieces (i.e. power supply, motherboard, simms, ...). Almost no chance.

>Michael Bode.

   I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you're trying to say here.  The
point is I doubt Microsoft is giving Windows away.  If you were to open up
to box at the computer store and not take the Windows package, you're just
not taking something you probably paid for somewhere in the price.

                                                                   [Tim]
Xref: sparky comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy:1611 comp.os.os2.advocacy:3330
From: dic5340@hertz.njit.edu (David Charlap)
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: Re: Who actually NEEDS NT?  Speak Up!
Keywords: NT OS/2 Windows OS
Date: 28 Jul 92 15:59:07 GMT
Organization: New Jersey Institute of Technology, Newark, N.J.

In article <1992Jul27.191356.25328@noose.ecn.purdue.edu> laird@stable.ecn.purdue.edu (Kyler Laird) writes:
>In article <1992Jul27.163902.10195@njitgw.njit.edu> dic5340@hertz.njit.edu (David Charlap) writes:
>>[...] I forgot that not everyone knows
>>that a LAN Manager server does not protect files from access at the
>>console.
>
>Hmmm...has something changed on me here?  or did you mean that someone
>can always rip the hard drive out of the console (server) for hacking
>at home?

Perhaps my experience isn't complete enough.  Last year, I worked at a
company with a LAN Manager network.  Maybe they hadn't set it up
properly, but the servers were quite vulnerable from the console.  How
so?  All network resources were directories on the servers' hard
drives (four drives total).  The resources were protected, but at the
console, you could just access drive C: or drive D: - bypassing the
network resources.

Again, the system there might not have been set up properly.  It
wasn't a problem for them, because the file servers were kept behind
locked doors.  (In the machine room with two IBM 9370 mainframes for
company)

-- 
   |)  David Charlap           "I don't even represent myself
  /|_  dic5340@hertz.njit.edu   sometimes so NJIT is right out!.
 ((|,)
  ~|~  Hi! I am a .signature virus, copy me into your .signature file.
Xref: sparky comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy:1667 comp.os.os2.advocacy:3401
From: jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard)
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: Re: Who actually NEEDS NT?  Speak Up!
Keywords: NT OS/2 Windows OS
Date: 30 Jul 1992 18:00:42 GMT
Followup-To: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Organization: UT Health Science Center Houston

In article <1992Jul30.163006.5319@njitgw.njit.edu> dic5340@hertz.njit.edu (David Charlap) writes:
>For rapid processing of huge quantities of data, you may have to use
>MVS/DB2, though.  I don't know for sure.  I know that banks use the
>MVS/DB2 setup for their transaction facilities, and it rarely has a
>problem keeping up.

...that is, if you throw enough of a machine at it. DB2 has a reputation for
selling 3090-600s (or whatever the equivalent ES/9000 machine is)... It does
run very well for huge numbers of simultaneous users all accessing the same
database, though; doing that on a network of minis or micros, no matter how
fast their CPUs, is still largely an unsolved research problem.
-- 
Jay Maynard, EMT-P, K5ZC, PP-ASEL | Never ascribe to malice that which can
jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu      | adequately be explained by a .sig virus.
"Right now, because of you, this city is being overrun by baboons." "Don't
 you think that's the responsibility of the voters?" -- _Naked Gun 2-1/2_
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
From: andy@research.canon.oz.au (Andy Newman)
Subject: Re: Who actually NEEDS NT?  Speak Up!
Keywords: NT OS/2 Windows OS
Organization: Canon Information Systems Research Australia
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 08:42:44 GMT

dic5340@hertz.njit.edu (David Charlap) writes:
> An ES-9000 running VMS and SQL-DS is quite capable.

No beef with the concepts but its "MVS" and "DB2". Does SQL/DS run
under MVS? I was under the impression that SQL/DS only worked with VM
and VSE. Its been a while since I was in the world of Big Blue so
things may have changed a little.

-- 
Andy Newman (andy@research.canon.oz.au)		"Int. God's own type"
From: neilp@cs.hw.ac.uk (Neil Postlethwaite)
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: New MultiTOS PC (Atari Falcon)
Date: 24 Jul 92 09:25:58 GMT
Organization: Dept of Computer Science, Heriot-Watt University, Scotland

In article <HVy2NB7w165w@mantis.co.uk> mathew@mantis.co.uk (mathew) writes:
>Gavin.Flower@comp.vuw.ac.nz (Gavin Flower) writes:
>> In article <1992Jul16.045114.16745@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> jyoung@nyx.UUCP (Jeff
>> >You CAN do that but much easier to buy OS/2 to run on Atari Falcon with
>> >386.  Also Mac emulator will be fast too.  NextWorld magazine said
>> >NEXT OS might be ported to Falcons!!!  So all the best operating systemes
>> >in the world can run on Atari Falcons.
>> 
>> Not until it can run Risc-OS 3.1 !!!
>
>*Snigger*
>
>RiscOS?  Yeah, I just LOVE seven letter filenames.  !And !All !Those !Stupid
>!Exclamation !Marks !All !Over !The !Screen.
>

Keeping each application in a directory with its associated files is sensible.
How about posting a directory listing of your Windows directory and lets see
the disaster in there.

No win.ini shite or stupid program manager - only see the Winodws programs from
there. Why not just have a single click and run from the File Manager window.
Oh yes I forgot, Windows is SO fucking stupid you can't associate the
vomit coloured icons with the files without win.ini/Program manager crap.

Atari Falcon. Hopefully for hi-res mono mode, you won't need a seperate monitor
like the ST does (so you can't run all the colour ST games. Ha, ha ..........).

DOS only has seven characters aswell in case you had forgotten, with a
3 letter extension to determine the type. RISCOS filer has filetype
BUILT IN. (Though the Mac finder is better than both in the naming
of file and directories).

Neil
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
From: nyet@cco.caltech.edu (n liu)
Subject: Things a Mac should do but can't (Re: 1 Thing Windows can do but OS/2 can't.)
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 02:30:57 GMT

neilp@cs.hw.ac.uk (Neil Postlethwaite) writes:

>Windows is just so fiddly, geeky to use and just a real pain.

Yes. It is. NT may be an improvement, maybe it won't. I'm still awaiting
my copy of OS/2. I'll use NT if I like it more and it doesn't cost me an
arm and a leg to get and develop for it.

>Give me a Mac with System 7 *ANY* day.

If you gave me one, I would use it too. I like using macs.

>Windows only won on the PC because it had virtually no competition.
>Gem, Deskview or Windows. Not much of a choice is there.

Somebody else made the obvious response to this; I don't have to repeat
it ;-)

>[if you] have a 286 machine, best bin it.

They make nice door stops/paperweights. Sometimes you can reuse their
power supplies, floppy drives, and chassis (chassises, chassii?).

>If you have a Mac Plus, system 7 will run on it.

Need at least 4 Meg to make this work good. NT and OS/2 are also memory
hogs.

>Mac price premium. Not !

I would BUY a mac if it:

5) had shared libraries
4) had protected memory
3) had preemptive multitasking
3a) and threading
2) had a good CLI
1) cost less than 3 grand but outperformed a 486/50 in speed

oh, a gcc/g++ port would be nice too.

Mac price premium. Not!
...Not!   :-)

Sorry if this diverged slightly from the topic, but hell, this
is an .advocacy group.
-- 
nyet@cco.caltech.edu
nyet@aerospace.aero.org
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
From: Larry Margolis <margoli@watson.ibm.com>
Subject: Re: Some more misconceptions regarding OS/2 and NT
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 05:20:06 GMT
Distribution: na
Reply-To: margoli@watson.IBM.com
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: The Village Waterbed

In  <1992Jul21.212437.25057@njitgw.njit.edu>  dic5340@hertz.njit.edu (David Charlap) writes:
>
> Compatibility:  While both will run DOS apps, Windows 16-bit apps, and
> OS/2 1.x apps,

Last I heard, NT was planned to run only OS/2 1.x text-mode applications.
Did I miss an announcement?

OS/2 2.0 will, of course, run both text-mode applications and PM applications.

Larry Margolis, MARGOLI@YKTVMV (Bitnet), margoli@watson.IBM.com (Internet)
Xref: sparky comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy:1557 comp.os.os2.advocacy:3222
From: drxmann@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Dustin R. Christmann)
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: Re: Windows 3.1 hardware requirements.
Date: 24 Jul 92 19:16:55 GMT
Followup-To: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin TX

In article <1992Jul23.052326.4776@infonode.ingr.com> bbrown@infonode.ingr.com (Bailey Brown) writes:

>You don't have one of those junky Trident boards do you?  You know, the
>ones with the single bank instead of two banks like a real SVGA?

You mean the junky Trident boards that are extremely inexpensive?  The ones
that had drivers for OS/2 more quickly than anyone else?  The ones that are
among the most supported SVGA boards in shareware and otherwise?

Yeah, I've got one.
-- 
Thanx,			|   Team OS/2	| Internet: drxmann@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu
Dustin R. Christmann	| (I was there) | Bitnet: DRXMANN@UTXVM
  Editor-in-chief of the ARAPOUT: All the news that is fit to print...NOT!
	Alpha Rho Chapter - Alpha Phi Omega - The University of Texas
"My grandmother started walking five miles a day when she was 60.  She's 93 to-
day -- and we don't know where the hell she is."	-- Ellen DeGeneres
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
From: smsmith@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Stephen M Smith)
Subject: Re: Windows 3.1 hardware requirements.
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 13:50:14 GMT

bbrown@infonode.ingr.com (Bailey Brown) writes:

>But what's the point of running OS/2?  I have Excel for OS/2 and Excel
>for Windows, Ha5 for OS/2 and Ha5 for dos, Qedit for OS/2 and Qedit for
>DOS.  I can't tell any difference between the OS/2 and non-OS/2 versions 
>of these apps, so why should I use the OS/2 versions?

I can't comment on those apps, but I do know that running OS/2 apps
works much better for me under OS/2 than running DOS apps.  PCPlus
is a DOG under OS/2.  It just steals too much of the cpu.  But if I
run an OS/2 comm program I can download in the background, format
floppies, and run a couple other apps at the same time with minimal
cpu impact.

Have you done any serious multitasking with your DOS apps under OS/2?
I'm sure you'll see how much better the OS/2 apps are in comparison.

>OS/2 does not run Windows apps faster than Win 3.1.  It does not
>run dos apps faster than Windows either.  I get a Norton 4.0 CI
>of 40.5 in straight DOS, 39.7 in a Win 3.1 DOS box, and 36.5 in an OS/2
>2.0 DOS box.

I'm sorry but I'll never trust a stupid DOS benchmark in a multitasking
environment.  Try running your real world DOS apps.  Try unzipping
or unzooing.  Try playing Wing Commander (oops, does that even run
under Win 3.1?  It always bombed out when I tried it under 3.0).  Try
Nota Bene (oops, that doesn't work under Windows either).  Try running
Ultima Underworld (oops, I doubt that runs either).  I'll grant that
Windows runs non-disk-intensive Windows apps faster than OS/2, but
EVERYBODY knows that OS/2 runs DOS apps faster and with more compatibility
and reliability than Windows.

   Steve Smith       | __|__ |    " #*&<-[89s]*(k#$@-_=//a2$]'+=.(2_&*%>,,@
<smsmith@magnus.acs. |   |   |      {7%*@,..":27g)-=,#*:.#,/6&1*.4-,l@#9:-) "
  ohio-state.edu>    |   |   | 
  BTW, WYSInaWYG     |   |   |                           --witty.saying.ARC 
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
From: olson30@netcom.com (John Sully)
Subject: Re: The NT file system
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 92 04:46:34 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 

eletanjm@nuscc.nus.sg (TAN JIN MENG) writes:

>CIVENBAH@mizzou1.missouri.edu writes:
>: In article <1992Jul21.205549.16885@njitgw.njit.edu>
>: dic5340@hertz.njit.edu (David Charlap) writes:
>:  
>: >What will the NT file system offer that HPFS doesn't?  I believe I
>: >heard something about multi-user protection, but does that make sense
>: >for a non-networked computer?  And OS/2 supports file protection for
>:  
>: Sure, it does.  For example, how about a stand-alone computer used by
>: many students at a school.  Each has his homework password protected from
>: all other students.....
>:  

>That is **NO** protection at all! For secure systems, you need a
>physically secure server storing all the sensitive data. Access is then
>from client workstations. For file protection, you really need a
>physically secure file server.

You have to be kidding!  Right.  And all along I though that VMS, MVS,
heck, even UNIX for all it's warts, provided multiuser security at least
at some level without having to be networked in a client/server relationship.
Oh well, I guess the world *can* be wrong :-).

Seriously, an argument can be made that a network connection is actually 
*less* secure than locally stored files, given that a network can be
snooped for data, passwords, magic cookies, what have you.  The only 
really secure system is a physically secure system, surrounded by armed
guards, which has *no* network connections.  Not a practical alternative.

John

Xref: sparky comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy:1554 comp.os.os2.advocacy:3211
From: dic5340@hertz.njit.edu (David Charlap)
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: Re: Windows 3.1 hardware requirements.
Date: 24 Jul 92 17:44:58 GMT
Organization: New Jersey Institute of Technology, Newark, N.J.

In article <1992Jul20.224335.20637@unislc.uucp> thayne@unislc.uucp (Thayne Forbes) writes:
>
>It appears to me that the hardware requirements for all three of
>The Great OSs (tm) are growing at about the same rate.  I remember
>when I could run Xenix in 4MB with 100MB of disk on a 386/16.  Yes I
>really did!

So?  At one time, Radio Shack sold Xenix for it's model 2/12/16
computers.  It would run in 128K and a 5MB drive.  It might have even
run off a dual-8" floppy  setup.  I don't remember.

That version of Xenix was about as powerful as the original BSD Unix
for the PDP-11.  Meaning not much by today's standards.



-- 
   |)  David Charlap           "I don't even represent myself
  /|_  dic5340@hertz.njit.edu   sometimes so NJIT is right out!.
 ((|,)
  ~|~  Hi! I am a .signature virus, copy me into your .signature file.
From: ASI509@DJUKFA11.BITNET
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: 1 Thing Windows can do but OS/2 can't.
Date: 28 Jul 92 12:31:35 GMT
 <92206.092436F0O@psuvm.psu.edu>
Organization: KFA  Forschungszentrum Juelich

In article <92206.092436F0O@psuvm.psu.edu>, F0O@psuvm.psu.edu says:
>
>In article <92206.132915ASI509@DJUKFA11.BITNET>, ASI509@DJUKFA11.BITNET says:
>
>>In article <5143@krafla.rhi.hi.is>, karlth@rhi.hi.is (Karl Thoroddsen) says:
>>>
>>>Sell 13 million copies.
>> ^^^^
>>  Really ? Sell ? To whom ? If in the cheapest computer shop in town I can`t
>>  get a PC without it? So if I leave it there I pay the same as if I take it.
>>  What`s the price then? Precisely ZERO $, DM or whatever. I wish they would
>>  sell cars :-)
>
>   You think Microsoft is giving Windows away?  I hardly doubt it.  You
>think you're getting all that software that comes with a machine for free?
>Again, I seriously doubt it.  Simply because it was the same price whether
>you left Windows or not, doesn't make it free.  The dealer probably just
>makes a little more profit, since he can probably re-sell it.
>

So I think some other dealer could sell me a cheaper machine. I would even buy
it in pieces (i.e. power supply, motherboard, simms, ...). Almost no chance.

Michael Bode.
From: Larry Margolis <margoli@watson.ibm.com>
Subject: Re: Some more misconceptions regarding OS/2 and NT
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 05:48:49 GMT
Distribution: na
Reply-To: margoli@watson.IBM.com
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: The Village Waterbed

In  <1992Jul27.173017.2806@vela.acs.oakland.edu>  bcmatusz@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Brian Matusz) writes:
>
> I have noticed on files in a DIR (from an OS/2
> command line) that there are two sizes listed for some files ...

The second number is the size of the Extended Attributes associated
with the file.

Larry Margolis, MARGOLI@YKTVMV (Bitnet), margoli@watson.IBM.com (Internet)
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
From: ekl@fics.uucp
Subject: Re: Some more misconceptions regarding OS/2 and NT
Organization: Kvam data as
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 16:34:19 GMT

In article <13751@auspex-gw.auspex.com> guy@Auspex.COM (Guy Harris) writes:
>>Now, if NT provides a POSIX layer next to to Windows (and perhaps OS/2)
>>layer, this POSIX layer may provide fork
>
>If it's a POSIX 1003.1 layer, it *WILL* provide "fork()", by definition
>(if it doesn't provide "fork()", it's not 1003.1-compliant). 
>

Under NT, you cannot have *both* posix and Windows. An applications runs
*either* under the posix-subsystem, *or* under the Win32 subsystem. Most
of the Windows API as we know it today is part of Win32, and thus cannot
be used in the posix subsystem.

Eirik
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
From: it1@ra.msstate.edu (Tim Tsai)
Subject: Re: The NT file system
Organization: Mississippi State University
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 20:01:48 GMT

jon@alpha.ee.ufl.edu (Jon Mellott) writes:
>NT will (initially) be only a single-user OS. The multi-user protection 
>provides the advantage of isolating users from each other and isolating 
>system configuration data from user configuration data. For example, our 
>workgroup has a couple of PCs in a commonly accessible location for use 
>by anybody in the group. These PCs are routinely getting messed up because 
>each user moves things around to suit his/herself. Protected user profiles 
>will provide a more consistent environment for the users of these PCs.

  Yup, I wouldn't mind multi-user protection myself, at the very least
to keep a virus from trashing my hard disk.  The way OS/2 is setup now
any process can have access to all of my file system, and I'm a little
bit uneasy about that.

Xref: sparky comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy:1612 comp.os.os2.advocacy:3331