From: jenk@microsoft.com (Jen Kilmer)
Subject: Re: Why must you act this way?
Date: 07 Jan 93 03:00:17 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corporation
Distribution: world,public

In article <1ictd2INNjbr@shelley.u.washington.edu> sieferme@stein.u.washington.edu (Eric Sieferman) writes:
>In article <1993Jan5.071254.4440@en.ecn.purdue.edu> muehlhau@en.ecn.purdue.edu (John Muehlhausen) writes:
>>In article <1993Jan3.082328.11776@phyrql.Alt.ZA> lucio@proxima.Alt.ZA writes:
>>>Where was your god when a four-year old girl, who would hardly be able
>>>to tell the difference, was suffering?  
>>
>>Right by her side.  Death is a result of sin, and happens from time to time
>>and for various reasons in our fallen world.
>
>One more time, more   s l o w l y ...
>(a) If the death AND SUFFERING of the four year old is a result of
>her own sins, please explain what this four year old did
>to deserve it.  I can't think of anything, and I have a 
>busy imagination.

Excuse me...John didn't say as a result of her own sins, rather
than as the result of wrongdoing in general. All actions have 
consequences - the consequences of the actions of the Nazis were
manifested in deaths and SUFFERINGS of Allied soldiers and civilians
[particularily those in, say, London or Leningrad] as well as the
Jews, Gypsies, homosexuals, political prisoners, and others who
SUFFERED and died in the death camps.  

Why are humans so able to inflict pain on other humans? Good question.
Obviously they are. 

>Hopefully, the incongruity of these ideas will 
>finally strike you.

If humans are able to act to provide pleasure to each other, then
what's incongruous about them being able to provide pain?

>John, you've done it again - provided a better case study than
>I could ever want.  The attitude you just expressed
>is one of the hallmark reasons why I left xtianity.
>It is quite normal for humans to grieve in the face
>of death, suffering, and injustice.  

Like how Jesus wept over Lazarus? or Jesus' reaction
the night before he was killed? or how Mary cried over
Jesus' feet? or how Jesus' followers mourned his death?

>But xtianity encourages
>psychological dissociation by blithely assuring its 
>followers that seemingly Bad Things are actually
>Good Things, or at least Unimportant Things.
>So, don't face the pain, just shove it underground 
>and quote a few scriptures, and all will be well.

I've encountered a lot of shitheads who preach that. Some
call themselves Christians, some call themselves Stoics,
some call themselves realists, some call themselves atheists.
I call them shitheads, which is A) more descriptive B) a
common name.

>Real humans experience a full range of passions; xtianity
>encourages a tepid blandness in the face of any joy
>or misery.

Like how David danced naked in joy before his god and cried
over his sons' desertion? 

Oh, I know quite a few churches where the "Christian culture"
encourages such divorce from reality and emotions. I think it's
because they're too frightened to admit that they aren't as
"in touch with God" as they think...and not a little afraid of
those emotions or really getting in touch with God or with 
the possibility of pain and suffering. This is a "take-a-pill"
society - headache, takeapill, pain, takeapill, spouse dumps
you, takeapill.....

-jen