From: mush@craycos.com (Randy Murrish)
Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.politics.homosexuality,co.politics
Subject: Re: Colorado Amendment 2: The First Fatality
Date: 12 Nov 92 22:12:17 GMT
	<1992Nov12.023819.2789@ncar.ucar.edu>
	<1992Nov12.164147.29394@craycos.com>
	<1992Nov12.191913.8438@ncar.ucar.edu>
Organization: Cray Computer Corporation

In article <1992Nov12.191913.8438@ncar.ucar.edu>
gary@colossus.cgd.ucar.edu (Gary Strand) writes:

   rm> Randy Murrish
   gs> Gary Strand

>   gs> People commit suicide for all sorts of reasons, some "honorable", some 
>       not, some that can be seen as "martyrdom", most not. This particular act 
>       is hardly what I would expect from an individual disappointed at the pas-
>       sage of #2.
>
>   rm> What do you know about discrimination?  What would YOU expect from an in-
>       dividual that believes that society has turned its back on him/her? True,
>       Marty had a lot of things going against him, but the passage of CO-2 is
>       what pushed him over the edge.
>
>     It's too bad that he needed others for his own self-validation. I'm of the
>     school that says "If you don't like me, you don't have to be around me."
>     I never look to others for my self-worth. That is something you and only
>     you can give yourself. Expecting others to give you a reason to like your-
>     self is setting you up for the kind of tragedy Marty had.

I'm sorry that everyone does not fit your mold of a model human being,
but there are individuals in our society that need others for their
own self-validation.  I would find it very hard to go through life
with society constantly invalidating my belief in myself, and I am
sure that most members of our society would have the same trouble.

>   gs> To imply, as the article does, and as the post attempts to imply, that #2
>       was somehow responsible for this man's death is emotional manipulation at
>       its worst.
>
>   rm> Marty specifically mentioned CFV in his note.  He also mentioned Will Per-
>       kins (the president of CFV).  His death was caused, in part, by the passage
>       of CO-2.
>
>     A very troubled man says X, therefore X is true? People have committed sui-
>     cide who blamed their suicide on space aliens, government mind-control, and
>     so on. I wouldn't take the words of a deeply disturbed individual as being
>     objective. All the rest of us noted that #2 passed, why didn't all of us
>     kill ourselves? Yes, #2 pushed this particular man over the edge, but his
>     reality was so messed-up to begin with that using his suicide as a means to
>     inspire repeal of #2 is cheap.

I did not say we should use Martys suicide as means to inspire the
repeal of CO-2.  And I have yet to find an individual that is using
Martys death as the only reason to repeal CO-2.  The simple fact
remains that one of the reasons Marty committed suicide was because of
the passage of CO-2.  period.

His death was a tragedy for his family and friends, and the public
needs to realize that passing an amendment to the constitution that
denys certain rights to homosexuals will have profound impacts in
certain peoples lives.

>   gs> Quite frankly, I'm irritated and ashamed that his personal tragedy can be
>       so cavalierly exploited for potential political gain. Aren't there better
>       arguments available besides this one? It's cheap and tawdry, and hardly
>       respectful of the man.
>
>   rm> I knew Marty, and the passage of CO-2 was a tremendous blow to his 
>       self-esteem.  How would you like it if Colorado voters passed an amendment
>       to the constitution that denied basic civil rights to people named Gary?
>
>     I'd tell 'em to f*ck off. I certainly wouldn't kill myself. One simply lets
>     the "other side" win when you give up like that.

Once again, I'm sorry that Marty didn't fit your mold of the idea human
being.  Society is made up of a variety of individuals, we havn't a
person to waste.

>   rm> What Marty, and most homosexuals are looking for is acceptance of them-
>       selves from their environment and the people around them.  What Marty felt
>       on Wednesday, Nov 4 1992 was rejection.
>
>     That's his problem. I'm not an uncaring person, but to derive one's pride
>     and self-esteem only from the kind words and praise of others makes one far
>     too dependent on the goodwill of others. Indeed, it almost puts one in a 
>     position to play emotional blackmail, because one can hold the threat of
>     something "really bad" if others don't give their approval of you. It's
>     not a very mature way of dealing with yourself.

Thank you for defining what is and isn't mature in our society.
Please remember that there are other people in our society that may
not think the samy way you do.

>   rm> What most people fail to understand is that most homosexuals view the
>       passage of CO-2 as rejection of themselves.  It is no wonder that CFV
>       fears for the safety of its members.  I doubt that any group in society
>       would feel any different if their basic civil rights were denied.
>
>     But it all depends on how you react to this rejection. Committing suicide
>    isn't the way to deal with it. Getting angry and changing things is.

Unfortunatly, Martys way of dealing with rejection was to commit
suicide.  I do not belittle his death in any way and accept his form
of dealing with his problems. May he rest in peace.

My way of dealing with rejection is getting angry and changing things.
CO-2 denies a specific group of people certain rights, pure and
simple, and CFV will sure know that I'm around here in the Springs.

>   --
>   Gary Strand                      Opinions stated herein are mine alone and are
>   strandwg@ncar.ucar.edu            not representative of NCAR,UCAR, or the NSF

Randy
-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Cray Computer Corporation                                Randy Murrish
1110 Bayfield Drive                                   mush@craycos.com
Colorado Springs, CO 80906                                719.540.4274
Newsgroups: soc.motss