HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: tketchum@oregon.uoregon.edu (Tim T Ketchum)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Hobbits (was Re: Bombadil)
Followup-To: alt.fan.tolkien
Date: 8 Jan 1993 23:36:27 GMT
Organization: University of Oregon
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: tketchum.uoregon.edu

In article <1993Jan8.012527.2074@netcom.com>, solovay@netcom.com (Andrew
Solovay) wrote:
> 
> In article <1iieljINNk90@gap.caltech.edu> damiens@cco.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) writes:
> >In article <1993Jan6.214044@IASTATE.EDU> cffitzge@IASTATE.EDU (Charles F Fitzgerald) writes:
> >>Is there any evidence to prove the assertion that they were
> >>"human-relations," and if so, where does it appear?
> >>
> >	_The_Hobbit_? In the beginning when discussing their being close to
> >men than dwarves or even elves (or were the latter two reversed?)
> >Admittedly the_Hobbit_ isn't entirely canonical perhaps...speaking of which,
> >remember the giants in the Misty Mountains?  More random creations of
> >Morgoth or just an oddity of that novel?
> 
> Added complication: Gandalf muses about getting some "more-or-less
> decent giant" to block up the entrances to the Goblins's caves. If
> there are "decent giants", then they are probably not creations of
> Morgoth's; they're probably more bombadils (i.e. inexplicables).
> -- 

I have a pet theory for most of these oddities within "The Hobbit".  Since
the story  purports
 to be Bilbo's  Memoirs,  I believe the old hobbit took serious poetic
license and embellished his tales immensely to entertain his young
stay-at-home relatives.   I'd imagine that after 50 years of telling the
same stories, maybe Bilbo (who wasn't exactly a spring chicken when he
began actually writing the book) couldn't really remember what actually
happened so filled it in a little.  This could certainly explain all those
"non-canonical" events/species, i.e.  giants, all those (semi-) sentient
wolves, spiders, ravens, etc.   Possibly even visit with Beorn was largely
a fabrication.   Perhaps Beorn was just a large frontiersman (who must have
appeared truly huge to a hobbit) that Bilbo assigned ursine characteristics
and not an actual shape-shifter.  I think Bilbo may even had exagerated his
importance in Smaug's demise by including the tale of the thrush telling
Bard the bowman where the dragon's weak spot was (since Bilbo had
previously discovered it).  

The Lord of the Rings (purportedly) on the other hand was began by Frodo
(who had gone through a horrific ordeal) and was finished by more sober
hobbit geneologists so may be accepted as canon much easier.  

This is all IMHO of course, and the facts (?) may not back it up.    
     
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: mcconnel@mcs.kent.edu (Mike McConnell)
Subject: Re: Elven Anatomy
Organization: Kent State University
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 15:56:24 GMT

In article <1993Jan4.015238.18695@leland.Stanford.EDU>, alderson@cisco.com (Rich Alderson) writes:
|> In article <1993Jan1.064511.27715@dartvax.dartmouth.edu>, mozart@coos (Sting) writes:
|> >In <92366.102452IO10407@MAINE.MAINE.EDU> ROB <IO10407@MAINE.MAINE.EDU> writes:
|> >
|> >>  This past weekend a friend and I had an argument over whether or not
|> >>Tolkien's Eldar had pointed ears or not
|> >
|> >
|> >I have noticed that in Tolkien's glossary of the elven language (which occurs
|> >in the Silmarillion, as well as various further works by other authors), the
|> >words for "ear" and "leaf" are closely related in Elven, which would suggest
|> >that they probably had something of a leaf-shaped ear.
|> 
|> No more that the fact that "corn" and "horn" rhyme, and horns grow near the
                               ^^^^       ^^^^
|> ears, and the units of growth of corn are called "ears."  Tolkien was a much
|> better linguist, both more clear and more subtle than that.
|> -- 
|> Rich Alderson   'I wish life was not so short,' he thought.  'Languages take
|>                 such a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about.'
|>                                                         --J. R. R. Tolkien,
|> alderson@leland.stanford.edu                              _The Lost Road_

 I suppose this was just an unlucky choice (:-)) but corn and horn are cognate
 words, parts of Grimm's law (I think) shows how the hard 'k' sound became a
 softer 'h' sound in the Germanic languages.  Thus we have the cornucopia is 
 the horn of plenty (corn and copious resp.)  Likewise, in Germanic languages
 we get hundred instead of centum, hound instead of canus, and head instead of
 cap (heafod in Anglo-Saxon for capita).

 Now I'll stop being such a pedant.

 Mike McConnell
 Dept of Mathematics
 Kent State University
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: pvs9@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (Praktikum Verteilte Systeme)
Subject: Re: Music based on the ring
Reply-To: pvs9@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (Praktikum Verteilte Systeme)
Organization: TU Braunschweig, Informatik (Bueltenweg), Germany
Distribution: alt
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 12:42:11 GMT


It is available outside Sweden.
I have seen that CD in a record store in Braunschweig, Germany, recently.
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: gds@york.cs.ucla.edu (Greg Skinner)
Subject: Re: Breeding Dragons (was Re: Bombadil)
Originator: gds@york.cs.ucla.edu
Reply-To: gds@cs.ucla.edu (Greg Skinner)
Organization: in your face!
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 93 18:44:39 GMT

In article <1993Jan6.212635@IASTATE.EDU> cffitzge@IASTATE.EDU (Charles F Fitzgerald) writes:
>What makes you say that?  Do we have any cases where a dragon is
>reported to be the offspring of another dragon?  Glaurung is said
>to be the first dragon, but not necessarily the "father of all
>dragons" (or I do not remember him being so named).

Glaurung *is* said to be the Father of Dragons.  (See "Of the Fifth
Battle" in the Silmarillion.)  In addition, "dragons of the brood of
Glaurung" were at the fall of Gondolin.  I also vaguely recall an
entry in one of the time timetables discussing how dragons had begun
to multiply in the northern wastes sometime during the Third Age.

--gregbo
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: erikt@sci.kun.nl (Erik van de Tier)
Subject: shape of Ea before end of second era ?
Organization: University of Nijmegen, The Netherlands
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 08:37:53 GMT

I reread the Ainulindale last night. When Iluvatar show's the ainur
the vision of Ea, it is described as a sphere. This pulled a trigger !
In the Akallabeth when Numenore is destroyed, it is stated that after
that happened the world had become round !! Doesn't this mean Ea hadn't
been round before the end of the second era!
Can anybody share his thought on this?

________________________________________________________________________
Erik van der Tier (erikt@sci.kun.nl)
From: mvoorhis@granite.WPI.EDU (Michael C Voorhis)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Fandom
Date: 13 Jan 93 00:00:28
Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute, Worcester, MA 01609-2280
NNTP-Posting-Host: granite.wpi.edu
In-reply-to: paulg@csd4.csd.uwm.edu's message of 13 Jan 1993 00:30:49 GMT

In article <1ivnrpINNdgi@uwm.edu> paulg@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Paul A Gunderson) writes:
> There are three groups of books that I can list off the top of my head that
> are in the same league as JRRT's stuff:
> 
>  James Branch Cabell		Poictesme series (_Jurgen_, et al)
>  Austin Tappin Wright		_Islandia_
>  Frank Herbert		Dune series

Oh, no; we're getting off the subject! :-)  I guess I'll jump in:

did anyonre else like the Gaean series as much as I did? (author: John
Varley)

I don't think they have the same depth that Professor Tolkien's work does,
but I thought it a very interestingly worked-out series...

	Mike.
	(mvoorhis@wpi.wpi.edu)
From: laurence@cco.caltech.edu (Dustin Lee Laurence)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: New Story: Mushroom Thief
Date: 6 Jan 1993 23:33:54 GMT
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
NNTP-Posting-Host: sandman.caltech.edu

[I express an opinion]

[Jim C. begs to differ in a mildly hostile fashion]

The acceptability of a post in a newsgroup is determined by it's readers.
You have expressed your opinion, as is proper, and I have expressed mine as
well.  I do not respect your apparent assumption that I must accept your
standards of acceptability (shades of the 'we must ruthlessly destroy all
those less tolerant than we' mentality).  Both of us will have to accept the
standards of the group as a whole, as a matter of courtesy (at least), and
anyone who does not express an opinion has no voice.  Those who somehow differ
with you have the same rights that you have to contribute to the shaping of
this newsgroup.

I'm not interested in wasting public bandwidth debating with you, but I do
insist on the same rights that you rather vocally enjoy.

-- 
Dustin Laurence       "As sensitive and broad-minded humans, we must never
                       allow ourselves to be in any way judgmental of the
laurence@alice         religious practices of other people, even when these
caltech.edu           people clearly are raving space loons." -- Dave Barry
From: mvoorhis@granite.WPI.EDU (Michael C Voorhis)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Bombadil and the study of history
Date: 6 Jan 93 14:26:08
Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute, Worcester, MA 01609-2280
NNTP-Posting-Host: granite.wpi.edu
In-reply-to: 003166j@axe.acadiau.ca's message of Wed, 6 Jan 1993 18:26:49 GMT

In article <003166j.11.726344809@axe.acadiau.ca> 003166j@axe.acadiau.ca (JASON WILLIAM JARVIS) writes:
> Enjoy the figure of 
> Bombadil for what he is, a mysterious character that provides an interesting 
> aside to the journey of the hobbits.

Interesting that a member of a history department preaches ignorance of
history.  Isn't this what historians spend a great deal of time doing--
speculating on unclear portions of history, or gathering data to construct
a more accurate picture of history?  That is what we do here in our
conversations on Bombadil, or whatever else.  Why can't this data-gathering
and discussion be applied ot the history and peoples of Middle Earth?

	Mike.
	(mvoorhis@wpi.wpi.edu)

>    Jason W. Jarvis
>    History Department
>    Acadia University
>    Wolfville, N.S.
>    Canada

Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: JBJORKLUND@FINABO.ABO.FI (Joakim Bj|rklund)
Subject: Wanted: Appendix A to Bored of the Rings
Organization: Abo Akademi University, Finland
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 16:39:52 GMT
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.24

Hello!

I've just finished reading 'Bored of the Rings' and now I would like to read the
Appendix A that someone had made for that book and posted here some time ago.
But since I didn't save it then, I would be really happy if someone posted it
again or mailed it to me. Thanks in advance.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  jbjorklund@finabo.abo.fi
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: cffitzge@IASTATE.EDU (Charles F Fitzgerald)
Subject: Breeding Dragons (was Re: Bombadil)
Reply-To: cffitzge@IASTATE.EDU (Charles F Fitzgerald)
Organization: Iowa State University
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 03:26:35 GMT

Damien R. Sullivan  [X-) Kiljoy] writes:
>One thing that bothered me about the creation power of Darkness:
>it is almost explicitly said that orcs are twisted elves, and 
>therefore can breed, inheriting that ability from the Firstborn.  
>But what about trolls and dragons?  If Melkor lacked access to the 
>Secret Fire they should not have been able to breed, only to be 
>created individually by Melkor with his own essence.  But dragons 
>most definitely did breed!

What makes you say that?  Do we have any cases where a dragon is
reported to be the offspring of another dragon?  Glaurung is said
to be the first dragon, but not necessarily the "father of all
dragons" (or I do not remember him being so named).

I can not recall _any_ evidence that either trolls or dragons
breed.  Orcs are said in several places to "spawn," so they
certainly reproduce.  Trolls are noted to be on the increase
at the beginning of the War of the Ring, so I would be willing
to allow that they might reproduce as well.  Dragons, however,
seem to be a dying breed (note the quote of Gandalf when he speaks
to Frodo about the destruction of the Ring), and no evidence
is given that any have been created since the First Age.

I believe it is entirely possible that dragons were unable to
reproduce themselves, and I certainly do not beleive that they
"most definitely did breed!"

--
Charles F. Fitzgerald | '....Life's but a walking shadow,
Iowa State University | a poor player, that struts, and frets
cffitzge@iastate.edu  | his hour upon the stage,
                      | and then is heard from no more....'
                      | _MacBeth_, by W. Shakespeare.
From: klaus@diku.dk (Klaus Ole Kristiansen)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: New Story: Mushroom Thief
Date: 7 Jan 93 12:55:14 GMT
Organization: Department of Computer Science, U of Copenhagen

>>In article <C09Ds1.J2v@umassd.edu> s13989bc@UMASSD.EDU writes:
>>>	In my personal opinion the mushroom thief story belongs in
>>>alt.sex.stories or other such stomping grounds for ths kind

I fully agree with you so far.

>>>of garbled filth.

Well, you did say that this is your personal opinion.

>>>Tolkien didn't create a world of bestialist and perverted hobbits.

This is beside the point. This is not a world of bestialists and
"perverted" people, yet some people are bestialists. Hobbits are
a branch of humanity, why should there be no bestialists among them?

But this does not really matter. Certainly Rosie and Sam did have sex,
as did Elrond and Celebriand and a lot of other couples. Yet I do
not think that this would be the right group for stories about that
either. Those would be stories about sex, with Tolkien characters
thrown in for color, not really stories about Tolkien's world at
all. There are other groups for such stories.

Klaus O K
From: waynebro@juliet.caltech.edu (Broughton, Wayne Jeremy)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Music based on the ring
Date: 11 Jan 1993 15:19 PST
Organization: California Institute of Technology
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: juliet.caltech.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    

In article <cos.726711837@chaos.cs.brandeis.edu>, 
 cos@chaos.cs.brandeis.edu (Ofer Inbar) writes...
>I'm not sure, but on Enya's newest album, there's a song titled
>Lothlorien.  I don't remember the name of the album, but it's the
                               ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^   
>third one, with Caribbean Blue on it.  Lothlorien is instrumental, and
>there are no liner notes about it, so I can't tell whether it's
>Tolkien-inspired or not.  But if it is, the music does fit the
>setting.
> 
It's called "Shepherd Moons".  Does anyone know if there is any other
source of the name "Lothlorien" besides Tolkien? 

**********************************************************************

Wayne J. Broughton                 Take the road less travelled by.  
waynebro@juliet.caltech.edu    

Caltech has no idea what my opinions are;  
they think I'm working right now...
From: mvoorhis@bigwpi.WPI.EDU (Michael C Voorhis)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Gandalf as Olorin (was Re: Bombadil etc.)
Date: 4 Jan 93 15:05:56
Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute, Worcester, MA 01609-2280
	<TJG01.92Dec31093404@thdhub.HomeDepot.COM>
	<1hvqb9INNg55@darkstar.UCSC.EDU>
	<MVOORHIS.92Dec31174735@granite.WPI.EDU>
	<TJG01.93Jan4084821@thdhub.HomeDepot.COM>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigwpi.wpi.edu
In-reply-to: tjg01@thdhub.HomeDepot.COM's message of Mon, 4 Jan 1993 13:48:34 GMT

In article <TJG01.93Jan4084821@thdhub.HomeDepot.COM> tjg01@thdhub.HomeDepot.COM (Terry Gardner) writes:
>    Is not `Curunir' Elvish for `wizard'? I seem to remember that
>    `nan curunir' was translated as `the wizard's vale'.

I believe so... an appropriate name for Saruman, I believe...

	Mike
	(mvoorhis@wpi.wpi.edu)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: paulg@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Paul A Gunderson)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: shape of Ea before end of second era ?
Date: 10 Jan 1993 00:04:14 GMT
Organization: Computing Services Division, University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.89.7.4

In article <C0H6n6.1so@sci.kun.nl> erikt@sci.kun.nl (Erik van de Tier) writes:
>I reread the Ainulindale last night. When Iluvatar show's the ainur
>the vision of Ea, it is described as a sphere. This pulled a trigger !
>In the Akallabeth when Numenore is destroyed, it is stated that after
>that happened the world had become round !! Doesn't this mean Ea hadn't
>been round before the end of the second era!
>Can anybody share his thought on this?
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>Erik van der Tier (erikt@sci.kun.nl)

Just a simple thought on this.  Since Tolkien's early maps show the world as
a hemisphere (more or less), perhaps the Ainur were seeing it from only one
side?  Face on, so to speak?  :-)

----
Paul Gunderson
paulg@csd4.csd.uwm.edu
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: bbfaus@wam.umd.edu (John E. Krokes)
Subject: Re: Hobbits, again
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 08:57:19 GMT


From _Letters_  # 131 to Milton Waldman    ~1951

	The Hobbits are, of course, really meant to be a branch of the
specifically _human_ race (not Elves or Dwarves) -- hence the two kinds can
dwell together (as at Bree), and are called just the Big Folk and Little Folk.
They are entirely without non-human powers, but are represented as being more
in touch with "nature" (the soil and other living things, plants and animals),
and abnormally, for humans, free from ambitition or greed of wealth. They are
made _small_ (little more than half human stature, but dwindling as the years
pass) partly to exhibit the pettiness of man, plain unimaginative parochial
man -- though not with either the smallness or the savageness of Swift, and
mostly to show up, in creatures of very small physical power, the amazing
and unexpected heroism of ordinary men "at a pinch".



Tolkien also write in the same letter that Gandalf's function is
"especially to watch human affairs (Men and Hobbits)"

Hobbits, it seems, are pretty much human.

JEK
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: jdelcol@eng.clemson.edu (delcollo joseph j)
Subject: Re: Hobbits (was Re: Bombadil), and Maiar/N
Reply-To: jdelcol@eng.clemson.edu
Organization: College of Engineering, Clemson Univ.
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 20:41:18 GMT


feanor was slain by Balrogs, caught by them with a small party when he got rash and ran ahead of every one else supposedly. The balrogs are of different power apparently, like the Maia. Some Balrogs, like the one that confronts Gandalf, are quite powerful others almost like enhanced orcs, like the one Ecthelion(?) kills in the fall of Gondolin. The balrogs were spirits of fire corrupted by Melkor, strange that they all went to his side and none remained loyal. In addition they never appear alone, they are 


always accompanied by orcs or other balrogs. Perhaps that is what Gandlaf is afraid of. 
     About orc free will. What about the orcs who joined Saruman. They got into fights with the ones following Sauron and the Ring-Wraiths. Remember in the LOTR when they capture pippen and kill each other
`
Joe Del Collo
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: mdlcpgs@lhn.gns.cri.nz
Subject: RE: Elven Anatomy
Organization: Institute of Gelogical & Nuclear Sciences, New Zealand.
Date: Mon,  4 Jan 93 23:39:10 GMT  

>  This past weekend a friend and I had an argument over whether or not
>Tolkien's Eldar had pointed ears or not.  

>Our argument was never resolved.

>
>  After doing some reading in "The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien", I came across
  [ stuff deleted ]
You are looking in the right place. At one point Tolkien describes Hobbits
and in doing so says something like "ears only slightly pointed , not as
much as elves". I cant be more exact, not having a copy of Letters but try
looking for that reference.
	Phil
From: JXD132@psuvm.psu.edu (Mumbles)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: shape of Ea before end of second era ?
Date: 12 Jan 93 20:16:23 GMT
Organization: Penn State University

In article <C0qGvC.1MK@sci.kun.nl>, erikt@sci.kun.nl (Erik van de Tier) says:
>In the Dutch translation on the Silmarillion Ea is descripted as 'bol',
>according to me the English word that comes closest to 'bol' is sphere.
>So I think it *is* a problem of translation, the meaning of the words
>'bol'(N) and 'globe'(E) are not absolutely the same (I must admit, that until
>now, I didn't know that there was a slight difference in meaning (I think
>I'll have to ask somebody (who knows more about this) to explane me the
>detailes)).
>Erik van der Tier (erikt@sci.kun.nl)

Actually, I think it translated okay (from what you said).  The English
can also be mistakenly read that the ground is a sphere.  Rather, I
think the "walls" that define Ea are a sphere.  That would also include
an atmosphere, room underneath, and on either side of the actual ground.
Ea then _is_ a sphere, where Ea is the world apart from the void.  That
does not mean the shape of the ground was round.  I guess it means the
Valar had a spherical area to work with.
Then again I don't speak Dutch, maybe it is totally different.  :)

--Jim
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: carl@class.gsfc.nasa.gov (Carl F. Hostetter)
Subject: Re: Elven Anatomy
Followup-To: alt.fan.tolkien
Organization: NASA/GSFC
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 14:44:48 GMT

In article <1993Jan4.015238.18695@leland.Stanford.EDU>, alderson@cisco.com
(Rich Alderson) wrote:
> 
> In article <1993Jan1.064511.27715@dartvax.dartmouth.edu>, mozart@coos (Sting) writes:
> >In <92366.102452IO10407@MAINE.MAINE.EDU> ROB <IO10407@MAINE.MAINE.EDU> writes:
> >
> >>  This past weekend a friend and I had an argument over whether or not
> >>Tolkien's Eldar had pointed ears or not
> >
> >
> >I have noticed that in Tolkien's glossary of the elven language (which occurs
> >in the Silmarillion, as well as various further works by other authors), the
> >words for "ear" and "leaf" are closely related in Elven, which would suggest
> >that they probably had something of a leaf-shaped ear.
> 
> No more that the fact that "corn" and "horn" rhyme, and horns grow near the
> ears, and the units of growth of corn are called "ears."  Tolkien was a much
> better linguist, both more clear and more subtle than that.
> -- 
> Rich Alderson   'I wish life was not so short,' he thought.  'Languages take
>                 such a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about.'
>                                                         --J. R. R. Tolkien,
> alderson@leland.stanford.edu                              _The Lost Road_


But it is stated (somewhere... _Unfinished Tales_? _History of
Middle-earth_ series? I'll look it up) that Elves' ears are leaf-shaped,
i.e. pointed. And in fact there seems to be a relationship between the
Eldarin words for "ear" and "leaf".

|===================================================================|
|         Carl F. Hostetter      carl@class.gsfc.nasa.gov           |
|                                                                   |
|                    Ars longa, vita brevis.                        |
|          The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne.            |
|  "I wish life was not so short," he thought.  "Languages take     |
|  such a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about."  |
|===================================================================|
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien