HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: luke@wombat.ee.byu.edu (David Luke)
Subject: Re: What about Zura?  (Was something longer)
Organization: Brigham Young University, Provo UT USA
Date:  8 Sep 92 08:38:32

In article <1992Sep7.190446.22270@news.Hawaii.Edu> mathias@uhunix.uhcc.Hawaii.Edu (Gerald B. Mathias) writes:
>I had a friend from somewhere in Shizuoka who said `zura' in her dialect
>was often shortened to `ra.'  She claimed that shortly after coming to
>Tokyo she once started to leave a coffee shop without paying because the
>the person she was with said `ikura' and she interpreted it as "Let's go."
>
>I have always believed the story (it would be an odd one to make up), but
>I have never found confirmation of the notion that `ikura/ikuzura' could
>mean "Let's go" instead of "will probably go."
>
>Isn't there ANYbody reading this newsgroup who grew up in a small town in
>Shizuoka-ken (preferably in the '30s to the '50s) who can confirm or deny
>this?

No, but I have lived in a small town (well, small is a relative word for
Japan -- small for anyone in the vicinity of Tokyo, big for us hics from
Idaho...).

"Ra" is used for "darou".  I'm not sure that I believe the story, since the
inflections would be different (at least it seems to me that they would,
speaking from my underdeveloped gaijin sense).  "Ikura" (how much) is iKUra,
where "iku ra" would be more like "Iku RA?".  Also, it sounds kind of funny
to hear "iku ra?" being used as "ikou ka?".  It seems that it should mean
"iku darou?"  Which could mean about the same thing, I guess.  A says "how
much", B takes it to mean "iku darou?" (I assume we're just going to leave
like this?)

I had heard "ra" used, but never paid much attention to it until one day in
a fairly important conversation with a lady about 60 years old.  She ended
almost every sentence with "ra".  It was one of those situations where you
just can't interrupt and ask "what the heck does 'ra' mean?", so I just tried
to remember everything she said without really understanding what she was
saying (makes it hard to answer or participate in the conversation in any
way!).  As soon as I could, I raced to a friend's house for an explanation
of "ra", then tried to reconstruct the conversation in my head, filling in
the meaning as I went.  Fun.

Here's a few more Shizuoka-isms: (more kuchiguse than ben, perhaps)

Shizuoka        Tokyo                   English

odakkui		choushimono		a very genki person
denkigama	suihanki		electric rice cooker
kisha		densha			electric train
sou ka ne	(I thought this was normal.  My Tokyo friends say otherwise.)
-- 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|  David Luke                      "There's nothing worse than a brilliant     |
|  luke@wombat.ee.byu.edu           image of a fuzzy concept."                 |
|                                                               -- Ansel Adams |
From: kaneko@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU (Seiji Kaneko)
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
Subject: Re: How to make a call in japanese?
Date: 8 Sep 1992 23:08:08 GMT
Organization: international computer science institute
NNTP-Posting-Host: axiom.icsi.berkeley.edu

In article <54500001@hpsgm2.sgp.hp.com> sunyi@hpsgm2.sgp.hp.com (Yi SUN) writes:
>Because I may make a call to japan, I need to say some japanese. Actually
>I can't say any. Could you help me translate following things?
>"May I speak to Ms. Cheng?", How is this expressed in japanese?
>Normally what is the first words a japanese may say when he/she 
>hears my voice? Please consider two situations: If the person answering
>the phone is the one I want to talk to or if the person answering the
>phone is the one I don't know?

Depending on the situations. Here are common expressions.

Sumimasen ga, Cheng san wo onegai shimasu.  <-- I recommend this one.
Cheng san wo yobi-dashite itadakemasuka.

And you can use a literal translation like "Cheng san to hanashi
 tai no desu ga." This expression also sound natural.

In business, the first word of reply would be his/her section name,
or room name where the phone exists. For instance,

Hai. HP singapole office desu.
Kochiraha HP singapole no Soumu-ka desu.
Dai 3 kaigi-shitsu desu.

Calling on someone's home, she/he would reply his/her family name, 
like ,

Kaneko desu.
Hai, Sun desu(ga). 

Generally speaking, when you call someone by phone, at first
say your name, and ask the person you want to talk to. There
are no complicated tactics in Japan ;)
-- 
Seiji Kaneko  kaneko@icsi.Berkeley.EDU,kaneko@sdl.hitachi.co.jp
Vote yes to fj.life.in-japan (^_^) .. 76270.2466@compuserve.com
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
From: max@eskimo.celestial.com (Max Pinton)
Subject: Canon Wordtank
Organization: -> ESKIMO NORTH (206) For-Ever <-
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL3
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 03:51:19 GMT

	Could someone please mail me info on the Canon Wordtank? I tried
mailing halford@twics.co.jp with no success. Are they available in the
U.S.? What, exactly, do they do? How big are they? How do the models vary?

	... thank you!
From: ntetsuya@lamar.ColoState.EDU (Nishimura)
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
Subject: Re: How to make a call in japanese?
Date: 9 Sep 92 16:45:09 GMT
Organization: Colorado State University, Fort Collins, CO  80523

In article <7488@skye.ed.ac.uk> T.Duncan@ed.ac.uk writes:
>
>I would recommend that you ask in *English*  -- most Japanese can understand 
						 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>at least some English.  Even if you do prepare some phrases in Japanese, the
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
	As a former teacher of English back in Japan, I half agree and half 
	disagree.  Many Japanese (not most) may understand *written* English
	but many many NOT understand spoken English.  And many may write farily
	good English but many may speak little English.

>chances are that you will soon find yourself being asked things which you 
>haven't had a chance to prepare :-(  A little bit of knowledge can be a 
>dangerous thing.

	I agree at this point.  I myself recommend to speak English a bit 
	slowly so that the person you are calling can catch the name you 
	really want to talk to.  If the person does not understand the language,	he/she will pass the phone to anyone who may understand the language.
	Supposedly, it may be the person you want.  Then, what should you say
	first?  I recommend;
	
		"Hello, my name is ______, may I talk to XXXX."

	In this case *MOST* Japanese who finished junior high schools should 
	know "hello" and "my name is..." are English expressions.  This will
	lead them to pass the phone to someone who understands English.

					Tetsuya Nishimura

>
>	-- Tim
From: rap@peaberry.doc.ic.ac.uk (Ross Paterson)
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
Subject: Re: kanji of the day ?41
Date: 10 Sep 92 14:43:44 GMT
Organization: Dept. of Computing, Imperial College, University of London, UK.
NNTP-Posting-Host: peaberry.doc.ic.ac.uk

From article <9209100909.AA14831@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU>, by stueber@VAX.MPIZ-KOELN.MPG.DBP.DE:
>    OnYomi: DOKU
>   Kunyomi: hito(ri)  -  alone, on one's own (also written with
>                         the kanjis for ICHI=one and HITO=man)
> 
> Mnemonics:  "A dog stranded in muddy water" signifying alone-ness
> 
> Derivation:
> [...]
> The right part signifies a salt mining machinery as used in
> Szechwan province. Here it stands for the MUDDY salt water coming
> from the salt wells.

Are the derivations given for mnemonic value?  I ask because this
character and #40 look like Chinese phonetic compounds: the base
character, #40 and #41 have reconstructed Old Chinese values "djuk",
"thjuk" and "duk" respectively.  ("h" signifies aspiration, "j" a
palatal glide.)

The base character is the (Chinese) name of an old state in Szechwan.
Karlgren (Analytic Dictionary 916) says it also meant "an insect
resembling a silkworm", and that Szechwan was famous for silk.
He derives it (the old form) as a picture of a silkworm, enlarged
by the insect/worm radical.
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
From: aki@KAGARI.MEL.TOSHIBA.CO.JP (Yoshiaki Kohno)
Subject: Kantou <-> Standard Japanese table
Reply-To: aki@mel.toshiba.co.jp
Organization: The Internet
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1992 07:46:17 GMT

Claude Huss <claude@TRC.MEW.MEI.co.jp> wrote:
 >This table is also very interesting, because many people think
 >that japanese spoken in Tokyo is "Standard", but there are some
 >few dialectic expressions in Tokyo, too.

You are right. Standard Japanese is considered the language which
announcers of NHK (NIHON HOUSOU KYOUKAI: Japanese equivalent of BBC in
UK) speak. Tokyo has its own dialect called Tokyo-ben or Edo-ben.
(Here "ben" means dialect, though it also means "packed lunch". Both
are written in same Kanji.)

What Edo-ben is in Tokyo is what cockney is in London. Both are spoken
in downtown. Populations of both language have been declining after the
invasion of TV into almost every home.  But both are not dead
languages and many people love them as their heritage.

Edo-ben is characterized by the speed of speech(very fast), the
strong utterance of "r"(like German), and the confusion of "h" and
"sh" (thus, standard "higashi(east)" becomes "shigashi") along with
its unique expressions.

One of those unique expressions is "be-ran-meh", which can be
traslated into  "Com'on, Man" or something like that, because it
usually used when a speaker is irretated by the slow reaction of the
person he is talking to. Yes, HE.  Ladies never use this rough
expression.

 >[Table deleted]
 >Would be that all? (Really, I wonder if "nanuka" is *REALLY* standard
 >japanese...

"Nanuka" sounds archaic to me.  "Nanoka" is the standard word.
And I don't think the list is all. It could be as long as the
Jargon-file :-)  Please someone from SHITAMACH help me.  Since I
couldn't pick up Edo-ben, though I was born and brought up there.
I was/am TV addictive, you know :-P

Cheers,
--------------
Yoshiaki KOHNO  <aki@mel.toshiba.co.jp>
IRC, Manufacturing Engineering Research Center, TOSHIBA Corp.
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan,soc.culture.japan
From: jwb@capek.rdt.monash.edu.au (Jim Breen)
Subject: Wordtank comments
Organization: Monash University, Melb., Australia.
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 01:49:00 GMT

Further to the discussion here on Wordtanks, I have had an 8500 with
the extra JE word card for a few months. I am generally very pleased 
with it. I guess I would be even more pleased with it if I hadn't
already written a reasonably full-functioned online dictionary
system, and hence knew what such things are really capable of.
I'll certainly chain it to my wrist when I get to Japan next.

A few gripes:

(a) the lack of furigana in the E->J display. This has been mentioned
before, and is understandable but annoying.

(b) the lack of character lookup by code (JIS, kuten, anything).
JIS lookup was in earlier models, but has been dropped.

(c) the utter unreliability of the J->E translations. Jeff Friedl has
posted about some of these. When I add an edict entry for which I am
relying on the Wordtank meaning, I now append "(WT)" to flag its suspect
authenticity.

(d) the limitation of the English translations to one word or phrase.
Unlike the E->J entries, which are quite comprehensive, the J->E are
terse and context-less. This severely limits their value.

Still, a terrific product.


-- 
Jim Breen                           JIS:$B%8%`!!%V%j!<%s(J
Department of Robotics & Digital Technology. Monash University. 
PO Box 197 Caulfield East VIC 3145 Australia (ph) +61 3 573 2552 
(fax) +61 3 573 2345  AARNet/Internet:jwb@capek.rdt.monash.edu.au  
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
From: haibt@THEORY.LCS.MIT.EDU (Carolyn Norton)
Subject: kanji of the day ?38
Reply-To: NIHONGO@mitvma.mit.edu
Organization: The Internet
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1992 14:34:39 GMT

Was there a KOTD 37?  The last one I have is 36 (muzukashii).

- Carolyn Norton
From: ntetsuya@lamar.ColoState.EDU (Nishimura)
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
Subject: Re: Kansai <-> Kantou Japanese table
Date: 5 Sep 92 13:40:53 GMT
Organization: Colorado State University, Fort Collins, CO  80523

In article <1992Sep4.194347.42778@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu> jamiller@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu writes:
>
>Not a 'word' but how about negative verb constructions.
>i.e. ~hen 
>
>Are negative endings like _yaran (yaranai) shiran (shiranai)_ etc.
>hogen of hokuriku kansai area?  I'm thinking not but...

	I think it's kansai-ben.  In Nagoya, btw, we say "yaran" instead of 
	"yarahen." (note: Nagoya is the city located between Tokyo and Kyoto,
	so MANY foreign people just pass by on shinkansaen even if it's the
	fourth largest city in Japan.  :-/ )

	[.sig and hokkaido stuff deleted]
	
	How about some Nagoya-ben?
	yattokame	long time no see  (write: hachi juu nichi me, in kanji)
					  (literally: in eighty days)
	
	Good ol' Nagoya-ben is now used only by some aged people and the one
	that youth use and Tamori makes fun about is "contemporary" Nagoya-ben.
	Now, guys, try to translate these.

	good ol' version; spoken by an old lady
		maa, yattokame da namo.  genki ni shitoryaashita ka.  ho^nto 
		yo^kite cho^shita namo.  sasa, agatte okurya^se.

	contemporary version; spoken by junior high girl 
		wa^, hissashiburi da ga^.  genki ni shitotta^.  ho^nto ni
		yo^ kite kureta wa^.  sa^, hayo agarya^ te.


	You got it?

					Tetsuya Nishimura



	answer for both:
		"Oh, it's been a long time.  How have you been (or Have you been		 well)?  It's good to have you here (or It's nice of you to come		 here).  Well, come inside."
From: harkcom@spinach.pa.yokogawa.co.jp (Alton Harkcom)
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
Subject: Re: Kansai <-> Kantou Japanese table
Date: 7 Sep 92 23:29:05 GMT
	<492@ccsparc01.center.osaka-u.ac.jp>
Organization: Yokogawa Electric Corporation, Tokyo, Japan
In-reply-to: a62178a@ccsparc01.center.osaka-u.ac.jp's message of 7 Sep 92 03:11:04 GMT

In article <492@ccsparc01.center.osaka-u.ac.jp>
   a62178a@ccsparc01.center.osaka-u.ac.jp (kikkawa lab) writes:

 =}>Katta                   Karita                  borrowed
 =}
 =}I don't use "Katta" and I have never heard it.

   The kansai-ben list that was posted seems to be an amalgum of the
many dialects in the area (Osaka-ben, Kyoto-ben, Kawati-ben).  I haven't
heard katta as karita before either, but it might be from one of the
dialects in the kansai area.

 =}>Yo iwan                 Totemo iwanai           do not dare to say
 =}
 =}"Yo^" + verb (shu^shi kei) is "have an ability to do". So,
 =}"Omae kono hashi yo^ wataru ka?" ---> "Do you have the courage to 
 =}cross this bridge?" And 
 =}"Akan. Yo^ wataran wa" is " ---> "No. I'm afraid to cross it."

"yo-" also has the meaning of "often" as in "aru-kun yo- kuru"='Al often comes'

"yo- nomu ya"=> you can drink a lot  -or-  you drink a lot -or- you often drink

 =}>Donkusai                Mittomonai              ugly
 =}
 =}Though "Donkusai" and "Mittomonai" are also translated to "ugly", 
 =}their meanings are quite different. But I can't express the difference 
 =}in English. "Donkusai to Mittomonai no chigai ha eigo yato yo^ 
 =}kakimasen".

  'mittomonai' is closer to 'disgraceful' in English I think.  It is used
for things embarrasing or which shouldn't be looked at.  'Ugly' only applies
in this sense.  (ie.  It was a scene of ugly violence...)  For 'ugly' in the
sense of 'the opposite of beautiful' 'minikui' (difficult to look at).

'donkusai' means something like 'retarded' as in 'slow'.  I wouldn't
translate this as ugly.  The 'don' part is "slow moving, dull witted"...
This word usually reminds me of the way we misuse the word 'retard'
in English.  I'm not saying that calling someone 'donkusai' is liking
calling someone a retard...  It just reminds me of that.

 =}>Mechikoi                Shitsukoi               persistent
 =}
 =}Not "Mechikoi" but "Nechikoi" is correct. "Nechikoi" is slite 
 =}different from "Hitsukoi", whichi is Kansai dialect of "Shitsukoi". I 
 =}think sticky is more suitable for "Nechikoi".

   I think you're right.  'netikoi' seems to give the image of glue,
tape, melted ice cream, etc...  Maybe this is because of 'neti neti'...
'hitukoi' and 'shitukoi' are more often used for 'persistent (though
'netikoi' can be used)...
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
From: y0l8009@tamsun.tamu.edu (Yoshih Lee)
Subject: Looking for a Japanese name pronunciation book!
Organization: Texas A&M University, College Station
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1992 23:52:28 GMT

When I went to Hakodate to study Japanese for 2 intensive months, I had the 
intention of finding various dictionaries that were otherwise too difficult or
impossible to find (I live in Texas).  I had little problem with bookstore
clerks, all but one exception.  Before, I'd asked my professors there whether
there was a text that contained the pronuciations for kanjis when used in
family/personal names, and the most I'd get from them started with a "chotto",
"saa", "soo desu nee" and generally ended with a "soo deshoo ne".  One sensei
even recommended that I should ask around for a "nihonjin no myooji no yomikata
no hon", though all the responses have ended in a "-nai dakedo".  I've heard 
that such books existed before, but were terribly old and very much out of 
print.  Besides compiling my own list and asking the local Japanese-language
teacher (which I've already started doing), is there already a recent name
pronunciation guide available?  Most of the native Japanese I've talked with
say that such pronunciations are learned with each name, but that's alot of
names, too.

Any suggestions would be wonderfully and happily appreciated!

Yoshih Lee
y0l8009@tamsun.tamu.edu
       @rigel.tamu.edu


-- 
RgZ Lee                 "...we abandoned God and shook hands with the Devil...
                            We are mercenaries of Hell!"  . . . Shin Kazama
y0l8009@tamsun.tamu.edu
        tamrigel.bitnet
From: ccavers@ersys.edmonton.ab.ca (Cam Cavers)
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
Subject: Kansai, etc. info.
Date: Mon, 07 Sep 92 14:03:54 MDT
Organization: Edmonton Remote Systems #1, Edmonton, AB, Canada

Could anyone post an overview of the major different dialects in Japan, and how
they relate to the flavour of Japanese that is taught in North America? With
all this talk about kansai, kantou, etc, I'm more than a little lost...

!   *  *  * *    *    ! Cam Cavers: ccavers@ersys.edmonton.ab.ca !SakeSake
!   *   *      ****** ! **************************************** !SakeSake
!  *     *      *   * ! Member of B.A.K.A.: Banzai Anime         !SakeSake
! *      *     *   *  !                     Klub of Alberta      !SakeSake!
From: manley@CS.UNR.EDU ("James G. Manley")
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
Subject: Re: (none)
Date: 11 Sep 92 20:57:38 GMT
Reply-To: NIHONGO@mitvma.mit.edu
Organization: The Internet


	Howdy!  I see that you got a response to your way to translate
"Can I ask a favor"-- perhaps you could help me with a similar problem.

	Neither I nor my friends can come up with a decent translation for
"Have fun!"  I realize that this is partly cultural, but do you have any
idea if there's any analogue?

						JM
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
From: qwang@SHOCKLEY.EE.UCLA.EDU
Subject: Re:  "Let's Learn Japanese" in Tennessee
Reply-To: NIHONGO@mitvma.mit.edu
Organization: The Internet
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 23:20:23 GMT

Could anyone tell what the program "Let's Learn Japanese" is? Is it for TV or
Radio? Thanks.

> Could someone let me know whether it is possible to view "Let's Learn
> Japanese" in the Memphis area (Tennessee)?
>
> Or could you not let me know the phone number of the distribution office
> of this program?
>
> Yoshinori Sasaki
From: tygar+@cs.cmu.edu (Doug Tygar)
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
Subject: Re: Looking for a Japanese name pronunciation book!
Date: 8 Sep 92 16:25:32 GMT
Article-I.D.: cs.Bu9pMp.8Mu.1
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon

In article <1992Sep6.235228.28517@tamsun.tamu.edu> y0l8009@tamsun.tamu.edu (Yoshih Lee) writes:
>When I went to Hakodate to study Japanese for 2 intensive months, I had the 
>intention of finding various dictionaries that were otherwise too difficult or
>impossible to find (I live in Texas).  I had little problem with bookstore
>clerks, all but one exception.  Before, I'd asked my professors there whether
>there was a text that contained the pronuciations for kanjis when used in
>family/personal names, and the most I'd get from them started with a "chotto",
>"saa", "soo desu nee" and generally ended with a "soo deshoo ne".  One sensei
>even recommended that I should ask around for a "nihonjin no myooji no yomikata
>no hon", though all the responses have ended in a "-nai dakedo".  I've heard 
>that such books existed before, but were terribly old and very much out of 
>print.  Besides compiling my own list and asking the local Japanese-language
>teacher (which I've already started doing), is there already a recent name
>pronunciation guide available?  Most of the native Japanese I've talked with
>say that such pronunciations are learned with each name, but that's alot of
>names, too.
>
>Any suggestions would be wonderfully and happily appreciated!

The most convenient source for native English speakers I've found is
P. G. O'Neill's Japanese Names published by Weatherhill ($22.50, paperback).
This book contains 36000 names indexed both by characters and pronunciation
(given in romaji.)  Certainly, more comprehensive Japanese books exist, but
I've found this book to be sufficient for my needs.

-- Doug
From: eroche@RND.STERN.NYU.EDU (Ed Roche)
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
Subject: Re: "Have Fun" in Japanese
Date: 15 Sep 92 01:36:03 GMT
Reply-To: NIHONGO@mitvma.mit.edu
Organization: The Internet

"Have fun" doesn't even mean "have fun" in English.  It has a negative
meaning.
From: mrc@Ikkoku-Kan.Panda.COM (Mark Crispin)
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
Subject: re: Have fun? (Was Re: (none))
Date: 14 Sep 92 18:57:28 GMT
Organization: University of Washington
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Mime-Version: 1.0

It should be noted that Japanese has some common greetings that are quite
cultural, and would be considered rude in other cultures.

How many of you have been greeting in the morning with `o-dekakemasu ka' or
even `doko he iku no?'?  Fortunately, I had been warned about this before my
first encounter with it, so I knew to answer with `un, itte kima-su' or `michi
de chotto...' as appropriate.

The key is to realize that these inquiries are merely ritualistic expressions
of good will and not intrusions into your private affairs.
From: timd@ed.ac.uk (Tim Duncan)
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
Subject: Re: How to make a call in japanese?
Date: 9 Sep 92 10:51:41 GMT
Reply-To: T.Duncan@ed.ac.uk
Organization: AI Applications Institute, University of Edinburgh

In article <54500001@hpsgm2.sgp.hp.com>, sunyi@hpsgm2.sgp.hp.com (Yi SUN) writes:
|> Hi folks,
|> 
|> Because I may make a call to japan, I need to say some japanese. Actually
|> I can't say any. Could you help me translate following things?


I would recommend that you ask in *English*  -- most Japanese can understand 
at least some English.  Even if you do prepare some phrases in Japanese, the 
chances are that you will soon find yourself being asked things which you 
haven't had a chance to prepare :-(  A little bit of knowledge can be a 
dangerous thing.

	-- Tim
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan