From: skip@tacky.cs.olemiss.edu (Skip Sauls)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.graphics,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: X-Pert Systems Domino Board
Date: 21 Aug 92 12:14:28 GMT
Organization: University of Mississippi, Dept. of Computer Science

In article <=a_n0cr@lynx.unm.edu> kholland@hydra.unm.edu (Kiernan Holland) writes:
>In article <1992Aug19.153528.11344@ra.msstate.edu> skip@tacky.cs.olemiss.edu (Skip Sauls) writes:
>>In article <1992Aug19.002700.5915@maccs.dcss.mcmaster.ca> rickan@maccs.dcss.mcmaster.ca (Mark Rickan) writes:
>>>In article <1992Aug18.130350.29501@sarah.albany.edu> tw5232@albnyvms.bitnet
>>>writes:
>>>
>>>>Here are the specs directly from Klaus Burket, the person who OWNS this
>>>>project...
>>>
>>>[..]
>>[..]
>>It may no longer reign as the fastest of the SVGAs, but it makes for a very
>>fast and cheap hi-res/hi-color display.  I've been using a 486-33 setup with
>>a ~$100 Tseng board and find it to be faster than my A3000 for many operations.
>>The only modes that it feels slow in are modes that no Amiga to date can hope
>>to match.
>
>People tell me that the Tseng 4000 is really not a graphics-coprocessor, 
>so it may be your system. 

I'm not a hardware-type at all, but I understand the Tseng 4000 gets
its speed from caches, FIFOs, VRAM, and the like.

>Your 486-33 is like a 50mhz 68030, so things will be faster. 

My 486-50 is even faster.  :-)

>the 486-33 with an ISA bus will not be as fast as an Amiga 3000 
>with its cpu-synced bus at animations, unless you get EISA, 
>becuase of actual memory moving, and such. 

You're probably right, but I've seen some FLI animations that are
pretty impressive.  

>That is the only disadvantage.

Well, you still have to deal with things like 64k segments and Intel
assembly language, but all-in-all its not too bad.  I'd much rather
be writing programs for the Amiga, but I'm paid to write them for
the PC.  :-)

>>Is this the 32k color mode or the 64k color mode?  I now have a 486-50 at
>>work with a newer Tseng board that supports 64k colors in up to 800x600
>>as well as resolution up to 1280x1024.  There are also lots of really weird
>>modes that can be programmed in much the same way the ECS can.
>
>You mean 15 or 16 bit modes. Actually, the modes are neat 
>but the require a 32K index palette for each image. 

Well, there are also modes like 1056x352, 1188x364, 640x400, 400x300,
and even some modes that are oddly Amiga-like such as 384x480 interlaced.

>And are harder to modify, unless your system quantizes color 
>information (I mean, if you are working with 24-bit images, it will 
>take longer for the application to create a similar color than a 24-bit 
>program/card which would just plop the color codes down). 

I've used the 15bit modes under Windows and the results are really nice,
but it really brings Windows to its knees.  Of course, it is difficult
to find fault with the speed at these color depths as no Amiga can
hope to generate comparable video.  :-(

>By the way, for 1280x1024 for the TSENG boards in 2^16 colors, 
>you would need 1280x1024x(16/8) bytes of ram present in your card before 
>you could display the images. That means you need at least 2.5 megs 
>on your graphics card. Check me on this, and you will see I am 
>correct!! 

You're right.  My statement about the number of colors and the max
resolution is somewhat misleading.  At 1280x1024 it can display a 
maximum of 16 colors and uses 640k of display memory.  It can display
256 colors at 1024x768 and 32k/64k colors at 800x600 and 640x480.

>By the way, I hear that the S3's are better chips. I wish 
>those were used in Amiga graphics cards. 

I don't know much about the S3 chips, but I understand they are more
of a coprocessor than the Tseng chips.  The Amiga's custom chips may
be more sophisticated, but the cheap 486s and sheer number of man-hours
spent on improving the PC's graphics may make that a moot point.

>>Hopefully pretty well.  Considering the form factor of the new machines
>>from Commodore, I doubt we'll see lots of motherboard swaps and that 
>>sort of thing.  Of course, I'd be willing to Power-Up my A3000 if they
>>have an A3000 + $1000 = A4000 campaign.  :-)  (If it really is called
>>an A3400, maybe they'll have an A3000 + $400 = A3400 Power-Up  :-)
>
>Me too. But chances are, CBM would screw-up on the design somehow. 
>Like changing the sex of all the ports and making everything 
>more snug than it should be.

:-)

>I liked the big cases better. I hate slim-line becuase your processors and 
>boards hardly have enough vented air to keep stuff from overheating.
>Besides, you get more space to stick things in, like the video toaster.

I really like the look of the "pizza-box" machines, especially the
NeXTStation and the SparcStation, but they really are not practical
designs for someone who wants room to expand.  The PCs I use at work
have butt-ugly baby-AT cases, but they are much easier to add RAM,
hard-drives, and expansion boards to than my A3000.

>>It is a rather nice chip and I'd love to able to have the sort of display
>>that PC owners have been enjoying for some time at a reasonable price.  I
>>hope that the company does well enough that their board is supported by a
>>number of packages instead of a few oddballs.
>
>Ya, I'm going to wait around and see. I have enough money now to go out 
>and buy a 486-50, butthe PC's lack a really good OS. I'm told Windows 
>NT will clear up a lot of the problems, but I will not believe it 
>until I see it in black & white (or color 8-)). 

I've read articles and net-posts about NT and how it will require a lot
of resources to be useable.  If PC prices were as insane as those for
Amigas it might be something to worry about.  However, when 486-50DX
and 486-66DX2 systems with accelerated video, lots of RAM, and large
hard drives are half the price of C='s latest blunder (A3000T), you'd
have to be a fool to buy the Amiga.  Someone posted rumored prices of
the A600, A800, A1000jr (oh please don't let them call it some stupid
name like that!), and A3400.  If they are close to what the real prices
are there may be some hope left for C=.  If not, who knows.

>Kiernan Holland
>kholland@hydra.unm.edu

Skip Sauls
skip@tacky.cs.olemiss.edu