HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: naumoski@cs.ruu.nl (Goce Naumoski)
Subject: The Macedonian star
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 10:05:03 GMT
Organization: Utrecht University, Dept. of Computer Science


In <Btt92D.AwL@news.cso.uiuc.edu> ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis ) writes:
>hubey@pilot.njin.net (Hubey) writes:
>
>>In article <1992Aug28.001713.12025@usage.csd.unsw.OZ.AU> 8800529@hydra.maths.unsw.EDU.AU writes:
>
>>> 	I have only one question which is constantly ignored. What the hell
>>> is the Star of the ancient Makedon kings doing on their flag !!!!
>
>>I have a simple question. Lots of flags have stars. What's so special
>>about this star ?
>
> The drawing of this star is different from the stars seen in the other flags.
> This drawing (of the star) is unique.  It was the symbol of the ancient
                                ^^^^^^
> Macedonians, who were beyond any doubt Greeks.
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>>	mark	
>
>---> Panos Tamamidis
>     University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign

Why the star is used you couldn't find in the papers of the GPM, IMHO, but
you should try to read some discussions and studies eg. from the Macedonian
papers, about its choice. But the point is that the star is not UNIQUE. 
I have no idea (at this moment), but it is used for a very long period of time
by the University of Utrecht, the Netherlands, as its symbol.

BTW, have somebody from the University asked Greece about the copyrights,
or shouldn't it be vice versa ?

Goce.

PS. Ancient Macedonians were no Greeks, but simply Macedonians. The Greeks
    for almost 2500 years are trying to Helenize them and are using
    different tools, but from the 20st years of the 19th century their
    methods are becoming worse and worse. They have almost done it in
    the Aegean Macedonia, and now in 1992 they are playing the last game,
    the final game. But the last game is a little different, the strategy
    is changed, there is enough Helenization, so let them be anything else.
    And for the Macedonians it is now: TO BE OR NOT TO BE.

Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: lhughes@b11.b11.ingr.com (Lawrence Hughes)
Subject: mail & phone service discontinued?
Organization: Intergraph Corp. Huntsville, AL
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 13:44:12 GMT

I have heard from sources both here and in Serbia that phone and mail service
between the U.S. (at least) and Serbia will be discontinued in the next few
days. Make those last calls today, folks!

Does anyone know of a way to get messages to/from Serbia via this net? I have
just recently brought a new wife to the U.S. from Serbia (from Pancevo, just
outside Belgrade), and it would be nice to stay in some kind of contact with
her parents, still in Pancevo. Help? I would also welcome info on any other
way to stay in touch (amateur radio?).

I also understand that we may be shutting down our embassy there. Anyone have
confirmation of this? We just managed to get her immigrant visa a week before
leaving (we married there) - just arrived in US on Aug 10. Looks like we just
barely made it out in time. Thank heavens the election isn't until November.

Larry and Milana Hughes - uunet!ingr!b11!lhughes




Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.greek
From: sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog)
Subject: Paranoia and relevance
Organization: Enea Data AB
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1992 21:16:39 GMT

James Dimos Dimarogonas (jdd1@cec1.wustl.edu) writes:
>I said:
>>You're so right. We all know how a Greek by the name of Alexander went
>>on a ten-year conquest layed his hands on lands that was not his. Before
>>history repeats itself, wipe Greece from the face of Earth.
>
>Mr. Sommarskog, This is irrelevant.

Yes, you are perfectly correct, this is irrelevant. Michael Polymenakos
asked if I was serious with this paragraph. No, I was not, I made a
sarcastic parallel to a paragraph from Michael which I found equally 
irrelavant.

In his reply, Michael argues that he referred to events which occurred
this century. Let me respond to this with another parallel. Germany
and French fought three bitter wars between 1870 and 1945. Yet today,
a war between Germany and France seems unthinkable. Despite their
previous conflicts they have managed to forget and say history is
history. Sadly, Greece, or at least the Greeks whose subscribe the
opinoins presented by Michael Polymenakos, has not been able to do
the same.

>Skopje, under the guidance of
>Belgrade, has had standing claims on Greek territory for half a
>century.  It is sad to see that everyone expects the Greeks to prove
>that Skpoje still has them.  NO!  They have to prove otherwise.

They have done so. The Macedonian constitution explicitly declares
that Macedonia has no territorial claims on any state. (Does the
Greek constitution include the same reservation?)

>As for
>paranoia, look else where.  A country that still doesn't even have an
>established legal status, and appears arogant by refusing any form of
>negotiations, and uses as its national sumbol the emblem of an ancient
>empire ( I am refering to the Vergina star), against its own interests,
>that sounds like paranoia to me.

Paranoia? Stubborness and rigidness, yes, but paranoia? Paranoia
is a mental disease where the diseased believes that everyone is
against him. And the Greek attitude to Macedonia - in theory they
could become a danger - has several resemblances with that state of 
mind.

>>Maybe some day I will something nice to say about Greece. But today
>>I find it difficult. Very difficult.
>
>Mr. Sommarsog, by disagreeing on a political issue, coming to the
>conclusion that there is nothing nice to say about Greece, is not
>very flattering for you.

Maybe not, but when Greece maintains a position worthy of a five-
year old, and I am presented with arguments like the ones I responded
to, it is very difficult to be positive. But, OK, I'll say something
positive: Souvlaki is a very tasty dish.

>Does the whole world revolve around the macedonian issue for you?

Certainly not, but sometimes one wonders whether this is the
case with the Greeks when you hear about bus tickets saying
"Macedonia is Greek" etc.
-- 
Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - sommar@enea.se
Life is wonderful when the wonderlife is full
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,eunet.politics,talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.theory,soc.culture.bulgaria,soc.culture.turkish
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,talk.politics.misc,soc.culture.bulgaria,soc.culture.turkish
Subject: "Sternlight the liar" poses dilemma for "dcs.glasgow.ac.uk" crooks.
Date: 31 Aug 92 01:33:15 GMT





<1992Aug31.112725.5625@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk>
dam@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (David Morning)

>The trouble is that, if what David Sternlight says is true, the people who
>have been threatened are hardly going to go into court and risk their
>immigration status by dabbling in politics, which in itself would be a breach
>of the conditions of their visa/work permit.

But the trouble is that "Sternlight the x-Soviet Jew" is a self-admitted 
liar. By the way, ever drop a cell in the sink when you're washing your 
brain and have it bounce nine times and not even a chip? 

>It shouldn't be too difficult for David Sternlight to contact the people he
>claims have e-mailed him, ask for permission and strip off the headers and ID.

And maybe "x-Soviet Jews" will tell "dcs.glasgow.ac.uk" crooks about it, too,
in their "Sternlight the liar" sort of way. 

>On the other hand, if what David Sternlight says is false, then it leaves the
>route open to Mutlu to sue him for slander......Hmmmm..

And he surely will.

Serdar Argic

                     'This war quickly developed into one of extermination. 
                      We closed the roads and mountain passes that might 
                      serve as ways of escape for the Tartars [Turks] and 
                      then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)

Xref: sparky soc.culture.yugoslavia:8457 soc.culture.greek:8395 soc.culture.europe:8066 talk.politics.misc:43491 talk.politics.theory:4005 soc.culture.bulgaria:1331 soc.culture.turkish:9643
From: buis@buengc.bu.edu (Biomed Dept I.S.L.)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.theory,soc.culture.bulgaria,soc.culture.turkish
Subject: Re: Time to Get Rid of the Nation-State? (was:  Re: THE NEW BULLY OF THE BALKANS [ Part 4 from 4 ])
Date: 3 Sep 92 12:04:59 GMT
Reply-To: buis@buengc.bu.edu (Lou Buis)
Followup-To: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Organization: College of Engineering, Boston University, Boston, MA, USA

In article <1992Sep3.030515.12379@panix.com> gcf@panix.com (Gordon Fitch) writes:
>
>What I'm really getting at is that the "nation", as a
>concept, is evidently worthless at protecting people's
>rights and safety.  We should be trying to find alterna-
>tives to it.




	A B S O L U T E L Y ! ! ! 
	=========================

	Even more, since nationality is no uniquely defined. 
	And it can change.
	
	Regards,

		Lou
From: malenovi@plains.NoDak.edu (Malenovic Nikola V.)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: Canada's voice in Bosnia Conflict (General Lewis MacKenzie)
Date: 3 Sep 92 21:33:41 GMT
Article-I.D.: plains.20136
Organization: North Dakota Higher Education Computing Network

In article <1992Sep3.171919.23445@ohrd.uucp> ohrd!rdowlati@cs.toronto.edu (Ramin Dowlati) writes:
>Shortly after leaving Croatia, 'General' Mackenzie headed for Washington
>to brief the US armed services committee. Perhaps this tells us something
>about where he was getting his orders from!
>
>-Cheers

But this does not serve your idea that McKenize is 'Serbian terrorist
mercenary'? I mean he is working for the country that plans to bomb the
living hell out of Serbia and Montenegro? hm...

Besides I thought US is sort of world police... or was it soemthing about
new world order... hm....

Nik
--
From: amer@bobcat.ent.ohiou.edu (Amer Alshawa EE Grad )
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: Muslims "Slaughter Their Own People"
Date: 27 Aug 92 19:31:14 GMT
Organization: College Of Engg. & Tech., Ohio University. Athens
Originator: amer@bobcat.ent.ohiou.edu




> Mr. Blazic,

> As usual, you fail to understand the main point, because of  your pathological
> feelings toward Serbs.  The government of Alija Izetbegovic is a 
> criminal government that is ready to kill its own people.  There is 
> not a single reason why Serbs should accept to live under such a government,
> You were the one who posted at least 10 ( ten ) articles on this
> network arguing that Serbs have done the killing of the people
> waiting for bread.  Now, instead of apologizing you are changing the story. 

> Milan N. Stojanovic  

Ther is no more stupid idea than the one that Muslims are killing the their
fellow who are standing in the bread line in order to attract sympathy from
the rest of the world. As if all the atrocities, crimes and killing done by
the inhuman serbs are not enough to shake the hearts of those who may have  
hearts. For the inhuman creature called stojanovic these things are meaningless
exactly like for his serbs mad dogs which beasts and animals are ashamed of 
their acts. 
> The government of Alija Izetbegovic is a criminal government that is ready
> to kill its own people.

Hey. As if you guys are pure angles coming from the heaven of Belgrade. You
should be ashamed of being a serb, an Orthodx Christian and a human being.
You and you countrymen and women are the criminals. This is a fact. But for
the great man Izetbegovic, it is unfair to compare him to the best of you. You
don't deserve to be ruled such a man and if it happens it will be an honor
for you and your serbiab jungle which needs an intelligent human being such as
Mr. Izetbegovic to make you back into the human arena. Stop the hatered which
has become a serbian trade mark and before that stop the actions which are   
making Hitler, Stalin and Mao feel ashamed and look like angles when compared
to your mad-dog attitudes and behaviors.
A
A
A
From: sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: Getting to the truth about detention camps & human rights abuses
Date: 23 Aug 92 20:32:33 GMT
Organization: Enea Data AB

Something like Tuesday 11th Josip Loncaric (josip@src.umd.edu) said:
>>>Being blamed does not mean you are guilty.  In fact, Croats and Bosnian
>>>Muslims have all along been striving to make their detention policy follow
>>>the applicable conventions.  To ensure this, the ICRC has been conducting
>>>inspections, and recently reported that no major abuses were found.
                ======================================================

I replied a few days later:
>>But since then ICRC has published a report with fierce critique
>>against all sides. 12 camps on all sides had been expected, and

To which Joseph Blazic (blazic@ecf.toronto.edu) replies:
>Yes on all sides, but of course no comment ('neutral operator' image)
>on the degree of abuses by the respective sides.  The ICRC has been pretty
>consistent when it comes to such issues; it always blames 'all sides' and
>leaves it at that.
>...
>The ICRC has to work in the middle of the warzones; do you expect them to
>stick out their neck and make a political statement, especially in light
>of the fact that they have their own people on the ground to worry about??

Joe, try to understand what was being said above. Josip Lonaric
claimed that ICRC had said there no significant abuse in the Croat
and Muslim camps. Whether this statement was true or not at the
time it was said, I don't know, but I doubt. Rather the case was
that ICRC said nothing at all, since they did not yet have data 
from all sides.

In any case, Josip's statement was falsified when the ICRC report
was published a day later, in which critique was directed to all
sides.

I don't know what you want to suggest. Do you wish to imply that
ICRC had to report abuse on all sides to remain neutral, even if
they hadn't seen any in the Croat and Muslim camps?

I don't want to dismiss Helsinki Watch or any organization you
may want to refer to, but we were discssing the Red Cross and
they did report that all sides were abusing the Geneva convention,
while Josip Lonaric tried to give the impression that they had
to say something different.

I don't know about you, but for me truth is something to be
careful with.
-- 
Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - sommar@enea.se
Life is wonderful when the wonderlife is full
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.misc
From: sharon@unixland.natick.ma.us (Sharon Machlis Gartenberg)
Subject: Re: Croatian Shortwave Broadcast
Organization: Unixland Public Access Unix & Think_Tank BBS
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 00:32:56 GMT

In article <1992Aug31.041432.12275@usl.edu> pssres12@ucs.usl.edu (Vignes Gerard M) writes:

>	I'm trying to find the following information
>	about the Croatian Shortwave broadcast:
>
>	1)	Frequencies
>	2)	Broadcast Schedule (UTC times)
>	3)	Mailing Address

The September issue of Monitoring Times' English-language Shortwave Guide
lists Croatian Radio at 0000-0030 UTC on 7315 kHz and 9495 kHz. I checked,
and it definitely sounded like a broadcast from Croatia, but not in English.
I believe it was in Croatian, since I heard what sounded like "Hrvatska"
several times. For those who don't know about "UTC," it's Coordinated
Universal Time. Right now, the Eastern US is four hours earlier than
UTC, so 0000 UTC is 8 p.m. Eastern Daylight Time. 

Croatian Radio was also listed as broadcasting on the same frequencies
at 0400 UTC, 0603-0610 UTC, and I believe they have a news program at
0703 - 0800 to Europe (7240, 9830, and 21480 kHz), 0803-0900 to Europe
(same frequencies), and probably a few other times. Seems like the best
thing to do is listen in the evenings in the States on 7315 or 9495 kHz
and see if you can catch them. I don't have a mailing address, but 
shortwave stations often give them during their broadcasts.

For those who might be interested in shortwave broadcasts from Radio  
Yugoslavia, they were listed at 11870 kHz at 0030-0100, 0100-0200 UTC to
the Americas; and 1830 - 1900 UTC to Europe on 6100 kHz and to Africa
on 15140 kHz. I checked 11870 kHz at 0030 and did, indeed, hear
Radio Yugoslavia in English.

Sharon 


-- 
Sharon Machlis Gartenberg
Framingham, MA  USA
email: sharon@unixland.natick.ma.us   or   uunet!think.com!unixland!sharon
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: s924099@yallara.cs.rmit.OZ.AU (Petar Kozul)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: ANYONE GOT ANY W.W.II STATS?...............
Date: 4 Sep 92 05:19:13 GMT

Hi,
	I once read a posting about World War II statistics, which showed
the numbers of casualties suffered by the Croatian, Moslem, Serb, etc. 
ethnic groups.
	If anyone has a copy of this, could they post it to me. I remember
that the data was taken from certain books on World War II, written by Serbs
and Croats if I remember properly.

Thankyou in advance..........

        ,
Petar Kozul.		s924099@yallara.cs.rmit.oz.au 

Xref: sparky soc.culture.yugoslavia:8267 soc.culture.europe:7793 soc.culture.german:5999
From: susan_soric@upubs.uchicago.edu (Susan Soric)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: U.S. Cro-Election results?
Date: 27 Aug 92 18:38:08 GMT
Organization: Univ. of Chicago

Does anyone out there have the
results of the U.S./Croatian
vote in the recent Croatian elections?

Please send them to me by 
e-mail or post.  Thanks!

susan_soric@upubs.uchicago.edu
Xref: sparky soc.culture.yugoslavia:8285 soc.culture.bulgaria:1232 soc.culture.greek:8127 soc.culture.china:24150 soc.culture.europe:7831
From: schoinas@fox.cs.wisc.edu (Yannis Schoinas)
Subject: Re: Independent Slavo-Macedonia
Organization: U of Wisconsin Madison - Computer Sciences
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 22:35:06 GMT

jdd1@cec1.wustl.edu (James Dimos Dimarogonas) writes:

>In article <MACRAKIS.92Aug19175839@next4.osf.org> macrakis@osf.org (Stavros Macrakis) writes:
>>In article <1992Aug19.192929.27974@wuecl.wustl.edu> jdd1@cec1.wustl.edu (James Dimos Dimarogonas) writes:
>>
>>
>>   ...As for their right to look after citizents of theirs abroad,
>>   that is of course an undeniable right.
>>
>>They presumably also have the right to communicate with those they
>>perceive as fellow Macedonians, although they have no legal
>>relationship with them, just as Greek Consulates interact with ethnic
>>Greeks who have never had Greek nationality (e.g. ethnic Greeks from
>>Egypt, Turkey, etc.).
>>
>I stand corrected!  When I said citizents, I meant ethnic origin. 
>When they become an independent country (their status now is a little
>tricky, but "macedonia" or not they are a country in the making)
>I don't believe that anyone in Greece will deny them the right to
>interact with anyone that claims himself to be of their ethnic origin,
>whatever that is.  My problem is when they speak for people that have
>not made any such claim. 

>As to whethere I would be worried by the existence of a slavic minority
>that's absurd.  The goverement of Skopje claims that there are 150.000
>"macedonians" in Greece.  For the sake of argument, lets assume that
>it is true.  That represent's 1.5% of the greek population, or 6%
>of the Greek Macedonia population. So the rest of Greek Macedonia
>is 94%.  Even if you assume that there are another 4% gupsies and
>vlachs (which is too high, but just for the sake of argument), it still
>leaves 90% greeks!!!  Show me countries that have border provinces
>with such an homogeneous population!!

Sorry to jump in but I couldn't resist. Can you give me a definition
to the word greeks that would explain why the vlachs or the slavophones
are not greeks? I can't think of any reasonable that would leave 90% Greeks
in Macedonia (or even in Greece) excluding them.

					 Bye,
					Yannis.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: 8800529@hydra.maths.unsw.EDU.AU ()
Subject: Re: Independent Slavo-Macedonia
Organization: school of Mathematics UNSW
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 03:15:35 GMT

In article <94895@bu.edu> buis@buengc.bu.edu (Lou Buis) writes:
>In article <1992Aug28.223506.261@cs.wisc.edu> schoinas@fox.cs.wisc.edu 
>(Yannis Schoinas) writes:
>
>>Sorry to jump in but I couldn't resist. Can you give me a definition
>>to the word greeks that would explain why the vlachs or the slavophones
>>are not greeks? I can't think of any reasonable that would leave 90% Greeks
>>in Macedonia (or even in Greece) excluding them.
>>
>
>	Definition of a word cannot make someone Greek ! 
>
>	It is the feeling that they have about themselves that make 
>	them what they are.
>
>	If they feel Vlach, they are Vlachs, 
>	If they feel Bulgarian, they are Bulgarians,
>	if they feel Macedonian, they are Macedonians !
>
>	We are talking about PEOPLE here and not about animal speces
>	that we define and name, like Canis Lupus Familiaris, 
>	and it becomes a dog, or you define something as Macaca mulatta
>	and you are having from now on a Rhesus monkey, no metter 
>	what he sais.
>	
>	PEOPLE have FEELINGS or CONCIUSSNESS ABOUT NATIONALITY 
>	and it is a part of their CULTURE, that doesn't have to do with 
>	how you define someone else, but whether he feels that he belongs
>	to that cultural group or not.
>
>	Moreover, there are many different definitions of national 
>	groups, so using someone elses definitions may be ambiguous. 
>	That's why just the personal feeling is relevant about this metter.
>
>	Regarding the people in Greek Macedonia, all of them, 
>	except the turists, are greek citizens, meaning they have
>	greek id's, passports, do the greek military service if 
>	needed, etc. But they may feeel ethic Vlachs, Macedonians,
>	Bulgarians, or whatever.

	Ok but you insist on ignoring how the Greek people feel about
the Macedonian situation. They also feel Macedonien. They also feel 
robed of their culture. And it does not help when the opposition is
using elements of their history to represent them selves.
	Example is the Star of the Macedon kings. Why did they put it 
on the flag. TELL ME ???
 


>								
>	
>		Yassu,
>
>			Lou

	Reg,
	George

Xref: sparky soc.culture.yugoslavia:8426 soc.culture.greek:8323
From: lb@cs.man.ac.uk (Luben Boyanov)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.greek
Subject: Re: Macedonia: History and Reality
Date: 1 Sep 92 11:35:57 GMT
Followup-To: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Organization: Dept Computer Science, University of Manchester, U.K.

In article <3891@keele.keele.ac.uk> cla02@seq1.keele.ac.uk (R. Wallace) writes:

[deleted]
 
>>         MACEDONIA: HISTORY AND REALITY

[deleted]

>I have carefully read this article to try to find one single statement
>which is not demonstrably false. I have failed.

I have found. The deliberate change of the language, which Macedonians used,
so that it became "more Serbian" after 1944. Also few more other minor
facts. It's true, however that, they were always followed by "unique" (and
taking your breath) explanations. I enjoyed reading the article.

>In the meantime, it would be a pity to let the group get clogged up with
>emotional denunciations of someone's fantasies!

Well, a free forum needs to hear all points of views. Maybe such views will
help the readers understand what was taught as a Macedonian history ...

>(Unless of course its meant as a joke ......?)

I doubt it. It has been written with strong passion ...

>Richard Wallace.

Regards

Luben
Xref: sparky soc.culture.yugoslavia:8378 soc.culture.greek:8263 soc.culture.europe:7954 talk.politics.misc:43031 soc.culture.bulgaria:1267 soc.culture.turkish:9541