HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: grayt@Software.Mitel.COM (Tom Gray)
Newsgroups: can.politics
Subject: Re: Denied access to English schools?
Date: 31 Aug 92 11:46:26 GMT
Organization: Mitel. Kanata (Ontario). Canada.

In article <Btnv6o.Hw4@ireq.hydro.qc.ca> beaurega@ireq.hydro.qc.ca (Denis Beauregard) writes:
>
>This is one part of the problem : if Canada was that generous with francos,
>why is the west almost unilingual anglo?  Why does it take one century
>to change the illegal law in Manitoba that make it unilingual?
>Just look some historical books and you'll see that a lot of people

Well Denis, the answer that you are looking for is people just like you.
There has long been a tension in Canada between those who can allow
the cultural groups to cooperate and those (like you) who can
only see releationships in terms of domination.

The loss of French schools in Manitoba was the result of the foeud
between the Orangemen of Dalton Maccarthy and the ultramontanists
of Honore Mercier. Maccarthy saw any accommodation with the French
Canadian as an example of French domination. Mercier attempted to
turn Quebec into a clerical state.

During the battles on the Jesuit Estates bill, Maccarthy (
and his ultramontane opponents) stirred up a great deal of
religious and ethnic resentment across the country. 
Part of this religious rage spilled over into Manitoba
which attempted to eliminate the religious schools which
had received religious support during the period 
1870-1890.


Eventually the forces of toleration prevailed (as they always
do in Canada) and the ultramontanists and the Orangemen were
forgotten.

However Denis, if you wonder how the rights of the francophone 
were damaged in Manitoba, it was because of peoplle like you.
People who could (and can) only see relationships is terms
of domination of one group over another.

It is small wonder that you use 1976 as your turning point
in Quebec history. By 1976, the clericalists had long been
defeated in the Quiet Revolution. With the Official Languages
Act the federal government led by a Quebec party under Trudeau
was trying to be the government of Canadians of both language groups.
This was opposed in Quebec by the successors of Mercier and
in TROC by the successors of Macarthy. Particularly in Quebec
undr the guidance of Laurin a scare campaign frightened people
into believeing that their neighbours were seeking to damage
the culture and language that they held dear. Thus the
passage of dicriminatory laws based on the idea tha the
only possible relationship between people is that of domination.

Now Denis, I hear voices in English Canada who can accept
Frecnh culture, I hear voices in French Canada who while
felling that the French culture needs protection find
some of the provisions of the French language laws
to be bizarre. 

In short Denis, your side is again on the defensive.
-- 
i.sinature
Newsgroups: can.politics
From: golchowy@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca (Gerald Olchowy)
Subject: Re: The Hegemony Continues
Organization: University of Toronto Chemistry Department
Distribution: na
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 13:24:14 GMT

In article <1992Aug26.044928.19437@ee.ubc.ca> kenb@ee.ubc.ca (Ken Buckland) writes:
>
>What possible use is a "symbolic voice"?  If that is all one requires, why
>are Ontario and Quebec so obsessed with maintaining their *real* power?  
>And why should the provinces other than Ontario and Quebec put up with a
>"symbolic voice" after all the abuses they have endured?
>

BC loses with an equal senate, and so will Alberta, although less so.

BC and Alberta are big boys now and should start thinking like big
boys...instead they traded away votes for an equal Senate...go figure.

An equal Senate is a stupid idea...and I was born, raised, and educated
in Northern Alberta.                         

Western Canada could have gotten 40% of an equitable Senate that was
more effective, and all they would have had to give up was 20% of
the Senate to Quebec.

Instead Western Canada has 40% of a less effective equal Senate, and
they have given Quebec 25% of the House of Commons, a move which
insures for perpetuity that Alberta and BC will be underreprented
in terms of representation by population in the Commons.  

Beaudoin-Dobbie had endorsed the notion of a 5-region country instead
of the old 4-region country...and Quebec would have went along with 
this...instead Bourassa goes home with a four-region country and
Quebec as 1 of 4...Quebec would have settled for 1 of 5. 

Alberta was trying to make Quebec one of ten...and when Quebec was
offering one of five...you have to be a pretty lousy bargainer to
end up with one of four.

Alberta and BC achieved nothing...Ontario and Quebec will dominate
the Commons...the small provinces will dominate the Senate...and
Alberta and BC have gained no influence institutionally.  

Getty and Harcourt are morons...

Still, it is probably too late to recoup the losses in this round.
Just like when Levesque lost the veto, Alberta and BC will have to
wait for the next round to recover from the mistakes they made this
round.  The losses aren't fatal...losing this deal might be fatal...

Gerald
From: michele@catnix.UUCP (Michele Simond)
Newsgroups: can.politics
Subject: frais d'hopital
Date: 3 Sep 92 21:54:07 GMT
Reply-To: michele@catnix.UUCP
Organization: Rhinoceros, chargez!

audetf@Software.Mitel.COM (Francois Audet) writes:
 In article robinson@mdd.comm.mot.com (Jim Robinson) writes:
> ]For example, earlier on Quebec was talking about charging people who
> ]*inappropriately* use hospital emergency facilities a small fee as a form
> ]of discouragement. This seems reasonable to me, but as it is prohibited by
> ]the Canada Health Act, Quebec could not do so without repercussions.

>PS: This is a Quebec Liberal Party proposal; it has nothing to do with
>the PQ.

Yes, the rejected proposal came from the Lieberal Party.  But if I 
remember well, the original idea nonetheless comes from the PQ.


--
Michele Simond ...... Traductrice ......  B.P.: michele@catnix.UUCP
(514) 671-8820				   OU :	michele%catnix@cam.org

"Chaque homme a eternellement a choisir, au cours de sa vie breve, entre
l'espoir infatigable et la sage absence d'esperance, entre les delices du
chaos et celles de la stabilite, entre le Titan et l'Olympien.  A choisir
entre eux, ou a reussir a les accorder un jour l'un a l'autre." (Yourcenar)
Newsgroups: can.politics,mtl.general
From: clamen+@CS.CMU.EDU (Stewart Clamen)
Subject: Re: Quebec law :: S.A. law re school access
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon University
	<1992Aug28.045523.7932@cc.umontreal.ca>
	<Btp5Iv.H8p@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca>
Reply-To: clamen+@CS.CMU.EDU
Distribution: can
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 20:45:29 GMT
X-Posted-From: byron.sp.cs.cmu.edu
X-Posted-Through: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

   In article <1992Aug28.045523.7932@cc.umontreal.ca> pilon@JSP.UMontreal.CA (Pilon Guy) writes:
   >
   >	I know some netters will be mad because I take the time to 
   >try to explain my point of view in the Shakespare language and others
   >because I want to critic their negativism approach of the Quebec community;
   >I beg pardon for all these people.
   >
   >	I was reading my news, quietly, when I read the position of Steeve, who
   >compare the Quebec English people position with the South Africa's blacks peoples.  I can say now, this reading made me mad.
   >
   >	Every body in this false big country (CANADA) has to answer to this
   >question to convince me to change one character to the 101 law.
   >
   >	1- Is'nt true than the French people of the rest of Canada as
   >the same number of UNIVERSITIES where they can study in their language than
   >the Black People of South Africa; against 2 major English Universities in
   >Quebec.

   No it is not true.  There are French speaking Universities in
   Manitoba and I have been told of one in Alberta (it might be a
   college).  This has been discussed many times.

Aussi l'universite' de Moncton, et la qqfois bilingue universite'
d'Ottawa.

   >
   >	2- Is'nt true, this as easy to the French people to has their school
   >(like the constitution of 1867 promise) for the primary and secondary than
   >the Black People of South Africa, against the complete school system for
   >English people in Quebec.
   >

   No it is not true.  There are many french language schools outside
   of Quebec.  In particular New Brunswick Ontario and Manitoba.  In
   addition, no where in Canada is there any laws preventing a parent
   from sending their child to a French language private school.

And neither is there one in Quebec.  Anyone is free to send their	
children to English language private school.

--
Stewart M. Clamen			Internet:    clamen@cs.cmu.edu
School of Computer Science		UUCP: 	     uunet!"clamen@cs.cmu.edu"
Carnegie Mellon University		Phone: 	     +1 412 268 2145
5000 Forbes Avenue			Fax:	     +1 412 268 5739
Pittsburgh, PA 15213-3891, USA
From: thood@corvus.matrox.com (Thomas Hood)
Newsgroups: can.politics
Subject: Re: Access to English school: quotes
Date: 3 Sep 92 13:45:07 GMT
Distribution: can
Organization: Matrox Ltd.

audetf@Software.Mitel.COM (Francois Audet) writes:

>If this is discrimination, then not having spanish schools for all
>children is also discrimination.

You consider the English-speaking community to be comparable to the
Spanish-speaking community?  They have similar numbers, a similar
history in Quebec, and should have similar rights?

--
Thomas Hood                                                    thood@matrox.com
Montreal
From: steven@spxtech.qc.ca (Steve Potter)
Newsgroups: can.politics
Subject: No English programs left in West Island elementary.
Date: 1 Sep 92 12:47:07 GMT
Distribution: can
Organization: Securiplex Technologies Inc., Montreal, Canada
X-Bytes: 780


  Baldwin-Cartier school board in Montreal's West Island just
  announced that demand for French immersion programs has now
  reached such a high level (more than 9 out of 10 students)
  that they have cancelled all regular English programs.

  This illustrates a trend that has been growing at a phenomenal
  rate since the 60's.

  I wonder what Denis will have to say about that.

  There is no excuse for denying access to French immersion
  programs in English schools.

-- 
  ///==================================================================\\\
  ||| Steve Potter:         steven%spxtech@CAM.ORG                     |||
  ||| Expertise/Experience: Computer Systems Engineering / Real Ale /  |||
  |||                       Politics in Education in Quebec            |||
From: beaurega@ireq.hydro.qc.ca (Denis Beauregard)
Newsgroups: can.politics
Subject: Re: Double majority
Date: 28 Aug 92 02:57:20 GMT
Organization: Institut de recherche d'Hydro-Quebec, Varennes, Canada

In article <1992Aug27.124647.16085@spxtech.qc.ca> steven@spxtech.qc.ca (Steve Potter) writes:
>
>  Maybe they should see which senator's parents were educated in
>  French in Canada. Any senator who didn't have a parent educated
>  in French in Canada would be declared "ineligible to declare
>  himself as francophone for the purposes of voting in the Senate" :-)
>
>-- 
>  ///==================================================================\\\
>  ||| Steve Potter:         steven%spxtech@CAM.ORG                     |||
>  ||| Expertise/Experience: Computer Systems Engineering / Real Ale /  |||
>  |||                       Politics in Education in Quebec            |||

The joke (i.e. what thing that made this agreement a joke, among others)
is that there is no criterion as how to declare someone francophone :-(
You could even be a francophone according to what seems to be the agreement.
Even Tom Gray could :-(


-- 
  \_\    Denis Beauregard  *  internet:beaurega@ireq.hydro.qc.ca
 /   \   Genealogiste officiel : Beauregard/Jarret/Jarest/Vincent
J   __>  Vient de paraitre : Andre Jarret et ses Ancetres
\_.-===  En vente par l'auteur                      Opinions ? Et pis non !
From: steven@spxtech.qc.ca (Steve Potter)
Newsgroups: can.politics
Subject: Re: Denied access to English schools?
Date: 31 Aug 92 17:52:10 GMT
Distribution: can
Organization: Securiplex Technologies Inc., Montreal, Canada
X-Bytes: 1027

From article <12701@audetf>, by audetf@Software.Mitel.COM (Francois Audet):
>
>  ....
>
>   ..   Anyone has the figures for the number of french-speaking
> children who do not have access to school in their own language?


   I posted figures from which this might be derived recently.

   I'll look up the specific information Francois requested and post
   it soon.

   I do recall that in ROC, _taken as a whole_, there is an enrollment
   rate _equivalent_ to about 99.1% of minority French mother tongue
   students enrolled in minority French language programs. (Ontario and
   New Brunswick were the highest, I think).

   That doesn't answer the specific question so I'll come back on
   this one.

   'till then.

-- 
  ///==================================================================\\\
  ||| Steve Potter:         steven%spxtech@CAM.ORG                     |||
  ||| Expertise/Experience: Computer Systems Engineering / Real Ale /  |||
  |||                       Politics in Education in Quebec            |||
Newsgroups: can.politics
From: clamen+@CS.CMU.EDU (Stewart Clamen)
Subject: Re: Fete Nationale du Quebec
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon University
	<1992Aug28.143009.1217@csi.uottawa.ca> <BttnwF.MKu@ireq.hydro.qc.ca>
	<1992Aug31.150508.2052@csi.uottawa.ca>
Reply-To: clamen+@CS.CMU.EDU
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 01:07:22 GMT
X-Posted-From: byron.sp.cs.cmu.edu
X-Posted-Through: sol.ctr.columbia.edu


I see nothing wrong with Quebecois celebrating a National Holiday.
The idea of an (ethnic) national identity separate from the (political)
national one exists in many regions of the world.

Some national groups that still lack independent nations:

Kurds (in Syria, Iran, Turkey, and Iraq)
Copts (in Egypt)
Scots (in the UK)
Welsh (in the UK)
Basques (in Spain and France, perhaps Andorra qualifies?)
Catalonians (in Spain)
Bretons (in France)
Inuit (in Greenland, Canada, US, and Russia)
Various First Nations (in the US and Canada)
Tartars (in Russia)
Lapps/Samit (in Norway, Sweden, Finland and Russia)


Now, some of these groups might succeed in forming independent nations
one day.  Regardless, they have succeeded in preserving their
identities through the centuries without sovereignty, and 20th century
liberal democracies should allow them to succeed in larger society
without assimilating.


Now, back to Quebec and La Fete Nationale.  Is it a holiday for
(ethnic) Quebecois, or for all Quebec residents?  Is it a political
holiday (promoting independence) or a celebration of the Quebec French
fact?  

The key question I would ask:

	Could someone celebrate both La Fete Nationale and 
	La Fete du Canada?

In the current political climate, people might reply "Non", but I see
no reason why this must always be the case.

And, to cover my bases, even if it ultimately turns out that one can
either be Quebecois or Canadian (in Quebec, anyway), then all we've
lost is the Trudeau vision of Canada, having returned to the old/new
binational model of the pre-WWII era.  I wouldn't consider such a
situation as a strong rationale for political separation.

--
Stewart M. Clamen			Internet:    clamen@cs.cmu.edu
School of Computer Science		UUCP: 	     uunet!"clamen@cs.cmu.edu"
Carnegie Mellon University		Phone: 	     +1 412 268 2145
5000 Forbes Avenue			Fax:	     +1 412 268 5739
Pittsburgh, PA 15213-3891, USA
Newsgroups: can.politics
From: clamen+@CS.CMU.EDU (Stewart Clamen)
Subject: Re: Fete Nationale du Quebec
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon University
	<1992Aug31.150508.2052@csi.uottawa.ca>
	<CLAMEN.92Aug31210718@BYRON.SP.CS.CMU.EDU> <12747@audetf>
Reply-To: clamen+@CS.CMU.EDU
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 21:19:31 GMT
X-Posted-From: byron.sp.cs.cmu.edu
X-Posted-Through: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In article <12747@audetf> audetf@Software.Mitel.COM (Francois Audet) writes:

   In article clamen+@CS.CMU.EDU writes:
   ]Basques (in Spain and France, perhaps Andorra qualifies?)
   ]Catalonians (in Spain)

   I tought Andorra was catalonian.

Tu as raison.  Am not sure how I got so confused.

   ]The key question I would ask:
   ]
   ]	Could someone celebrate both La Fete Nationale and 
   ]	La Fete du Canada?

   Of course. Any excuse is OK for a good party.

I would tend to agree, but the question I was getting at is whether
one could be a patriotic Quebecer on the 24th and celebrate La Fete
Nationale, only to be a patriotic Canadian and celebrate La Fete du
Canada a week later?

For instance, it would be hard (some might say mutually-exclusive) to
be a good Christian and have a religious Easter and be a good Jew
and celebrate Passover (last year they were coincident, even!).

--
Stewart M. Clamen			Internet:    clamen@cs.cmu.edu
School of Computer Science		UUCP: 	     uunet!"clamen@cs.cmu.edu"
Carnegie Mellon University		Phone: 	     +1 412 268 2145
5000 Forbes Avenue			Fax:	     +1 412 268 5739
Pittsburgh, PA 15213-3891, USA
Newsgroups: can.politics
From: clamen+@CS.CMU.EDU (Stewart Clamen)
Subject: Re: Fete Nationale du Quebec
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon University
	<BttnwF.MKu@ireq.hydro.qc.ca> <1992Aug31.150508.2052@csi.uottawa.ca>
	<Btx74v.DG9@ireq.hydro.qc.ca>
Reply-To: clamen+@CS.CMU.EDU
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 03:51:39 GMT
X-Posted-From: byron.sp.cs.cmu.edu
X-Posted-Through: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In article <Btx74v.DG9@ireq.hydro.qc.ca> beaurega@ireq.hydro.qc.ca (Denis Beauregard) writes:

   >
   >If some action is desired the majority, and harms a minority, this
   >form of democracy SHOULD do that action, whether it's the issue of
   >increasing some tax that only the minority pays, or if it's an issue
   >of repression.  At various times, this has been used to injure people.

   This was used against the francophones for centuries.  Why can't the
   anglophones accept this a single year?

It's been more than a year, it has been half a generation.  And
besides, we are supposed to think we are 'better' know then we used to
be.

--
Stewart M. Clamen			Internet:    clamen@cs.cmu.edu
School of Computer Science		UUCP: 	     uunet!"clamen@cs.cmu.edu"
Carnegie Mellon University		Phone: 	     +1 412 268 2145
5000 Forbes Avenue			Fax:	     +1 412 268 5739
Pittsburgh, PA 15213-3891, USA
From: grayt@Software.Mitel.COM (Tom Gray)
Newsgroups: can.politics
Subject: Re: Denied access to English schools?
Date: 1 Sep 92 11:53:40 GMT
Organization: Mitel. Kanata (Ontario). Canada.

In article <12724@audetf> audetf@Software.Mitel.COM (Francois Audet) writes:
>In article <12720@grayt> grayt@Software.Mitel.COM (Tom Gray) writes:
>>Eventually the forces of toleration prevailed (as they always
>>do in Canada) and the ultramontanists and the Orangemen were
>>forgotten.
>
>... and so was french in the West.

No that is not correct. THere are people in the west who are fighting
to maintain their French culture.

>
>And if the orangmen are forgotten, why do we have a Reform Party?
>Why is there hords of red-necked biggots supporting Clyde Wells?
>The APEC? etc.

Because these forces will always be with us. Don't you get that that
is what I am saying or writing. Canadian history is replete with 
examples of these bigots trying to impose their own limited
and impractical cultures upon the rest of us. Canadian history
has alos been replete with the rejection of these ugly ideals.
I hope firstly because Canadians will reject bigotry when they
see it for what it is. However I suppose most practically because
these bigotted ideals cannot create a workable country.
As a current example, look a James Bay II. If the Quebec government
cannot bring itself to realize that the inhabitants of Northern
Quebec have a legitimate right to *their Own* culture, it can
kiss all those billions good bye.



>-- 
>                                                       Francois Audet
>                                                           '
>                                      Telephone: (613) 592-2121 x1754
>                          Internet: Francois.Audet@software.Mitel.COM


-- 
i.sinature
From: audetf@Software.Mitel.COM (Francois Audet)
Newsgroups: can.politics
Subject: Re: Denied access to English schools?
Date: 31 Aug 92 13:49:03 GMT
Organization: Mitel. Kanata (Ontario). Canada.

In article <12720@grayt> grayt@Software.Mitel.COM (Tom Gray) writes:
>Eventually the forces of toleration prevailed (as they always
>do in Canada) and the ultramontanists and the Orangemen were
>forgotten.

... and so was french in the West.

And if the orangmen are forgotten, why do we have a Reform Party?
Why is there hords of red-necked biggots supporting Clyde Wells?
The APEC? etc.
-- 
                                                       Francois Audet
                                                           '
                                      Telephone: (613) 592-2121 x1754
                          Internet: Francois.Audet@software.Mitel.COM
From: steven@spxtech.qc.ca (Steve Potter)
Newsgroups: can.politics
Subject: Re: Access to English schools
Date: 4 Sep 92 12:07:44 GMT
Organization: Securiplex Technologies Inc., Montreal, Canada
X-Bytes: 766

From article <Bu1B4r.96p@ireq.hydro.qc.ca>, by beaurega@ireq.hydro.qc.ca (Denis Beauregard):
> In article <1992Sep3.213751.912@pandora.matrox.com> thood@corvus.matrox.com (Thomas Hood) writes:
>
> [stuff about Trudeau *& his mother deleted]
>
> In the context, Trudeau should not be used as a perfect example of
> a pure francophone since he was not educated as a pure francophone.

So if my children are educated in French that makes them impure
anglophones!?

-- 
  ///==================================================================\\\
  ||| Steve Potter:         steven%spxtech@CAM.ORG                     |||
  ||| Expertise/Experience: Computer Systems Engineering / Real Ale /  |||
  |||                       Politics in Education in Quebec            |||
From: beaurega@ireq.hydro.qc.ca (Denis Beauregard)
Newsgroups: can.politics
Subject: Re: asymmetrical federalism
Date: 28 Aug 92 18:26:15 GMT
Organization: Institut de recherche d'Hydro-Quebec, Varennes, Canada

In article <1992Aug28.161832.6198@pandora.matrox.com> thood@corvus.matrox.com (Thomas Hood) writes:
>mfrappie@csi.uottawa.ca (Marc Frappier) writes:
>
>>Why is asymmetrical federalism so unacceptable to the rest of Canada?
>
>Asymmetry implies nonuniformity of federal authority, which implies
>an unequal legitimacy of votes by members of Parliament.  If the
>Government of Quebec (for example) sets telecommunications policy
>for Quebec, then Quebec M.P.s would not be justified in voting on
>telecommunications policy for the rest of Canada.  This would make
>the parliamentary process impossibly complicated.
>
>--
>Thomas Hood                                                    thood@matrox.com

Et pourtant, durant plusieurs annees, la ministre federale de la sante
etait du Quebec alors que, le Quebec ayant son propre systeme, selon le
texte precedent, elle n'aurait pas pu travailler!

En verite, il suffit que tout le monde s'entende pour ne pas nommer
un ministre d'une region ou un ministere n'a pas d'autorite.  La complexite
du traitement est en realite limitee au choix du ministre responsable.
Apres tout, il est normal que le president de la commission du ble soit
de l'ouest, que le ministre responsable de la culture soit bilingue
et que le ministre s'occupant des pecheries ou de l'agriculture sache
de quoi il parle.

En fait, si le federal cessait de s'immiscer dans les champs de competence
qui ne sont pas de son ressort, il y aurait deja une amelioration.



-- 
  \_\    Denis Beauregard  *  internet:beaurega@ireq.hydro.qc.ca
 /   \   Genealogiste officiel : Beauregard/Jarret/Jarest/Vincent
J   __>  Vient de paraitre : Andre Jarret et ses Ancetres
\_.-===  En vente par l'auteur                      Opinions ? Et pis non !