From: noring@netcom.com (Jon Noring)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc,sci.physics,sci.chem
Subject: Entropy of the Universe, (was Re: Genesis - fact or fiction)
Summary: Let's get some opinions from the thermodynamics experts on sci.physics
Date: 20 Aug 92 19:42:28 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)

In article skroger@zeus.calpoly.edu (Seth L. Kroger) writes:

>serafin@epcot.spdc.ti.com (Mike Serafin) writes:

>>I, being a scientist, once believed that evolution had all the answers.  But,
>>evolution presents some gross inconsistencies with modern scientific laws. 

>Evolution in violation of some scientific law?  What is he talking about?
>Could he be trying to trot out that old stale thing about...
>
>>Evolution requires that all matter somehow came together to form life.  The 
>>law of entropy states that all systems will tend toward a state of maximum 
>>entropy (maximum disorganization).  If this law is valid, then how, without
>>some outside force, did matter come together to form life?
>
>Ahh.  The 2nd Law of Thermo.  The 2nd Law is, entropy can be created, but
>not destroyed, consequently, the entropy of an isolated system will never
>decrease.  It does not say that *all* systems increase their entropy, only
>isolated ones (ones where no energy or matter enter or leaves the system.)
>
>	*  The earth is NOT a isolated system.  To see a source of low entropy,
>	one only has to look up on a sunny day.
>
>	*  Elements and compounds still have to obey a set of laws conserning
>	their reactions.  If these say that under certian conditions,
>	self-replicating molecules will form, that's not my problem.
>
>So far, creationists have been unsucessful in actually showing that life
>requires a violation of the 2nd Law.  Or do you know something that you are
>just holding back?


A slightly different way to look at the 2nd Law (tm) is it's statement that
for any *irreversible* process, the entropy of the *universe* must necessarily
increase.  It is possible to look at any finite volume (but not isolated)
and possibly observe a decrease of entropy in that volume because of some
process, but the entropy of the rest of the universe outside of that volume
will necessarily increase at an even greater extent with the final result that
the entropy of the *whole* universe will increase.

Thus, it is possible that local organization (entropy decrease) can and does
occur (for example, the formation of crystals in nature from molten rock),
provided that the system is not isolated with respect to energy flows.  The
ramifications of this for complex, highly organized life forms arising from
the primordial "soup", so they say, then, become clear.

We can assume that all life-forms on earth form a defined finite volume in
the universe, which is clearly not isolated.  Energy of very high thermodynamic
availability flows into this "life volume" from the sun.  In turn, energy
flows out of this "life volume" at a much lower availability (usually low
temperature thermal energy).  There is also mass flow across the "life volume"
boundary, but this complication does not change my argument.  The overall
effect is that the entropy of the whole universe will increase for the activity
of life processes (no surprise here).  However, within the "life volume",
organization (i.e., entropy decrease) is possible because of the high
thermodynamic availability of solar energy, and this is accomplished via
photosynthesis, which makes complex, low entropy, organic molecules that
become building blocks for highly organized organisms.

Though I haven't yet touched upon evolution here, evolution is clearly an
intergenerational organic process, subject to the same processes and
thermodynamic analysis I outline in the previous paragraph.  Thus, I don't
believe that one can use 2nd Law arguments to "prove" that evolution is
impossible without the guiding hand of an intelligent "Guider" or "Assistor"
who is outside of the physical universe (not to say there isn't, however).
Or, putting it another way, the 2nd Law does not deny the possibility that
highly-organized life forms can spontaneously, and without assistance, arise
from non-organized compounds, provided there is a source of energy with high
thermodynamic availability.

Jon Noring


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