From: makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky)
Subject: Re: Israel and the Fourth Geneva Convention (was: Israeli Nazism?)
Reply-To: makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky)
Organization: Arizona State University, Tempe AZ
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 03:40:37 GMT

In article <1992Dec28.220827.929@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> wmuhanna@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Waleed A Muhanna) writes:

# In article <BzwuJ1.D4w.1@cs.cmu.edu> clamen+@CS.CMU.EDU writes:

# >I agree that deportations without trial are outside of peacetime
# >morality (we can argue whether Israel can legally 'declare war' on
# >Hamas), I am not yet convinced with regards to their illegality. More
# >precisely...

# >We have been told by numerous media and diplomatic officials in the
# >media that deportations are illegal under the Geneva convention
# >(assume for the moment that the Fourth Geneva Convention applies to
# >the Territories.  
 
# Fine.  You should know, however, that the world, including the US Government,
# is virtually unanimous that Israel is blatantly and repeatedly violating the 
# Geneva Convention.

	These are *_POLITICAL_* and NOT legal statements.  In fact, when
Bush Baker & Co. first wanted a statement to this effect be issued by
the State Department legal advisors, they had to get a third rate
flunky who wanted a promotion to do it.  None of their top lawyers
would because they knew it was nonsense.

# The UN Security Council unanimously passed many resolution
# (most recently a couple of weeks ago) in which it reaffirmed the ``the
# principle of the inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war'', 
# and in which it affirmed the applicability of the Fourth Geneva Convention 
# of 1949 to ``all Palestinian territories occupied by Israel since 1967,
# including Jerusalem,'' and strongly condemned Israel's violations of said 
# coventions.  

	Besides being mistaken, the Security Council does not have to
defend Israel.  Israel does, and its first obligations are to its
people first, even if that means violating international law (which
Israel is not doing anyway).  This goes for all states.

# The expulsions of Palestinians by Israel are illegal because they are
# in violation of of Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention which state
# that: ``Individual or mass forcible transfers, as well as deportations of 
# protected persons from occupied territory to the territory to the Occupying 
# Power or to that of any other country, occupied or not, are prohibited,
# regardless of their motive.''  Israeli settlements are in violation of 
# another section of Article 49 which demands that ``the Occupying Power 
# shall not deport or transfer parts of its own population into the territory 
# it occupies.''

	As William Safire, among others, has pointed out this is not
correct.  It goes against the official interpretations of the
Convention as well as its evolution.

# Israel's unwillingness to comply with the most solemn and binding resolutions 
# of the international community and to uphold a body of international law,
# which it has signed and ratified, raises serious questions for the current 
# peace process, principally whether Israel, if its current policies continue,
# can be a partner in good faith to an internationally sponsored agreement.

	Your premise is bogus, so your statement is nonsense.  At any
rate, it is the Arabs whose faith is suspect.  They (especially
Lebanon) have violated agreements with Israel.

# Further, the expulsions once again expose Israel/zionism for what it is:
# a settler-colonialist state/ideology under which the native Palestinians
# are, by definition, foreigners in their own homeland, a problem for
# disposal.

	Those are LIES, but did we expect anything else?

# >>I am fully aware that Israel does not recognize
# >>this, using the fact that the territories are not part of a
# >>recognized sovereign country.)
 
# This view is rejected by virtually everyone in the international
# community.  According to Article I of the convention, it applies 
# "in all circumstances," and according to Article 2, it applies to
# "all cases of declared war or of any other armed conflict."

	I have already responded to this above.

# The Geneva convention is the quintessential humanitarian law.
# Unlike most other bodies of international law, the Convention 
# is designed to protect the rights of individual citizens, not the 
# rights of states.   Its preamble states that it is intended
# "for the protection of civilians".  It would therefore be against 
# both the spirit and the letter of the Convention to restrict its 
# applicability only to individuals who reside in territory that is 
# legally part of a recognized state.

# Moreover, as Yigal Arens pointed out a year ago, if people bothered to 
# check the views of Israeli government's own legal advisors, not those 
# of Israel's political spokespersons and AIPAC, one would find a clear
# recognition of the applicability of the convention and of Israeli
# violation thereof:

	You think Israel's legal advisors have no political biases?!!!!!

#     ``It is my conclusion that civilian settlement in the administered
#       territories violates an explicit directive of the Fourth Geneva
#       Convention,'' wrote the Legal Advisor of the Israeli Foreign Minister,
#       T. Mayron, in a memorandum to Prime Minister Eshkol, dated September
#       14, 1967.''  (Source, article in Ha'aretz, March 16, 1990)

	Read above.  However, what about more recent legal advisors.  Or
do you discriminate against those that disagree with you?

# The Geneva Convention, of which Israel is a signatory, was established 
# after WWII to outlaw Nazi-like behavior during the Nazi occupation of Europe.
# The Nazis would conquer land, deport natives and settle Germans in occupied
# countries.

	Exaclty.

# Israel is occupying the West Bank and Gaza,

	Judea and Samaria are territories liberated (NOT occupied) during
a war forced on it by the Arabs.  However, Arabs do occupy Jewish
homes (they have mezuza holes - a mezuza is a Jewish ritual object)
that they took after they killed/expelled ALL the Jews.

# deporting natives,

	They are deporting terrorist threats (and not nearly enough).

# and moving in civilian settlers.   This is in balatant violation of the
# Geneva Convention,

	The settlers are moving in of their own accord, which is NOT a
violation of the convention.

# and in that sense Israel is emulating some of the behavior
# of the Nazis.

	That is a despicable lie.  They don't even come close.

# This is not to say that the Israelis are Nazis.

	Oh, how very nice of you.

# However,
# the Israeli policy of expulsions and enforced settlement of occupied 
# land, not to mention torture and killings of defenseless civilians,

	No one is being tortured (the Landau report notwithstanding) and
those killed can be blamed on abusive parents who send them out to
confront soldiers and their brothers who by being terrorist animals
force the soldiers' hands.

# is 
# comparable to the Nazi German policy in occupied land.

	You are in serious need of a reality check.

# The method 
# of implementing the policy may differ, but the attitude to land seems 
# similar "we have the right to take this land, the people there now are
# just in the way, and must be got rid of, somehow."  To try and say "the
# Nazis were brutal, we are not" does not convince the international audience.
  
	Oh yes.  The "international audience".  Always ready to give the
Jews a fair shake.

# >As I understand the Geneva Convention, the occupying country is
# >obligated to follow a few basic rules, including:

# >	1) no forced, mass deportations of occupied population,
 
# Individual, not just "mass", expulsions are illegal under the Convetions.

	Not always.

# >	2) no forced migrations of its own citizenry INTO 
# >	   occupied territory,
 
# The Geneva document makes no distinction between voluntary and compulsory
# ("forced" as you put it) population transfer into the occupied territory.
# To suggest that voluntary population movement is OK because it is not
# expressly prohibited by the Geneva conventions, is as ludicrous as suggesting
# that murder by ice pick is OK because there is no law expressly against it.

	Your analogy is wrong, and even Bernard Stone, the leading
authority in the area, concurs.

# >	3) maintenance of the status quo wrt. laws and regulations,
# >	4) policing the occupied territory

# >At this time I ask:

# >1) Are western-style trials mandated under the (4th) Geneva
# >   Convention?  (And if so, is this because Israel-proper has a
# >   western-style justice system or because the Convention explicitly
# >   defines a specific judicial procedure?)
 
# I'll have to check this, but I don't think the Convention EXPLICITLY defines
# a specific judicial procedure.

# >2) What level of punishments can Israel, as an occupying power under
# >   the Geneva Convention, inflict?  Can it invoke the death penalty,
# >   group punishment, etc., citing its legality under British Mandate
# >   and Ottoman (as well as possibly 1948 Jordanian and Egyptian) law?
 
# What Ottoman laws are you talking about?  Besides, do you also insist
# that these laws be applicable to Jewish settlers also?  When was the
# last time Israel expelled any Jew?  

	Meir Lansky.  There have been others.

# Your questions are laregly academic; Israel rules the territory 
# using repressive military decrees and draconian military measures.  
# Undercover units are roaming the territories and despensing death.
# Kids have been shot to death on the spot for spraying graffiti on 
# walls or for throwing stones. 

	Some of what you say here is true, some is not.  Hwoever, the
soldiers need to be brought in because of the environment I discussed
above (abusive parents and terrorists).

# The UN Commission on Human Rights has long characterized Israeli occupation
# as ``a fundamental violation of the human rights of the civilian population 
# of the occupied territories.''  The Commission found a number of Israel's
# practices in the occupied territories to constitute *"war crimes"*.  These 
# included physical and psychological torture of Palestinian detainees and 
# their subjection to inhumane treatment; the imposement of collective 
# punishment on towns, villages, and camps; the administrative detention 
# of thousands of Palestinians; the expulsion of Palestinian citizens;
# the confiscation of Palestinian property; and the raiding and demolition 
# of Palestinian houses.

	Oh yes.  The fair and impartial UN.
--
	There are three types of people in the world.  Those that are good
at math and those that are not.

makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.rights.human