From: wwallace@ucrengr.ucr.edu (wayne wallace)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.dnd
Subject: Re: Troll vulnerabilities (was Re: Swords of Sharpness, etc)
Keywords: Trolls, regeneration, sword, sharpness, constitution
Date: 29 Sep 92 19:17:22 GMT
Organization: University of California, Riverside

In article <6442@blue.cis.pitt.edu.UUCP> seawasp@vm2.cis.pitt.edu (Sea Wasp) writes:
>In article <1992Sep28.212012.6975@Princeton.EDU> tao@potato.princeton.edu (Terry Tao) writes:
>>Brings up another interesting question.  What DOES kill trolls apart from
>>fire and acid:: what about
>
>	As all things, this depends on GM rulings. Mine follow:

Yah. AD&D tends to be an entirely different game system from DM to DM.
My variant is that I use many of the optional rules in the books, but
otherwise follow rules to the letter. For some unknown reason, many DMs
think a game needs different rules than those listed to work well.
I don't, so I'm going to use the 2nd edition listing for the troll to
answer the various causes of death for trolls.

(side note: Once a character in an RPG is made, you shouldn't need die
rolls for roleplaying unless you haven't nailed down an NPC's personality,
or a PC or NPC is using a skill for more than a routine action. Combat
should have clear, and not vague, rules for combat resolution. Trolls,
however you make them, should be consistent. Granted, you are soliciting
opinions, but be firm in how trolls work in your world, assuming no magical
chaos.)
>
>>old age
>
>	Not a chance. They are eldritch creatures, immortal unless killed.

Gee, AD&D mentions that they live for 100 years or more. That's not immortal
to me. I'd be scared to fight your trolls, especially if they could hold
grudges...

>>death spells
>
>	If they are under the HP/HD limit, yep, that's death for you.

Death Spells and such should nuke a living creature. One might reason that
regeneration only works so long as a soul is in the body, and death spell
sends the soul to another plane, or snuffs it entirely.

>>suffocation
>
>	Problematic. I'd say it depends on how LONG you keep them deprived
>of oxygen. Bury them for six weeks or more, yeah, that's dead. But you
>might be able to argue otherwise, especially for, say, rock trolls.

I don't have rock trolls in my world, but if a creature receives power from
a substance, within limits, that substance might be able to save a creature
from death.

As for suffocation, that's preventing the body from getting its supply of
oxygen and stuff, which will slowly cause your cells to die. However, trolls
regenerate somehow, so they must have a very efficient anaerobic energy
solution, and thus shouldn't need air at all, thus taking no damage from
lack of air. However, under the sea troll (scrag) entry, it mentions they
have gills and can only survive in air for 1 hour. Logically, I would infer
that they'd die until put back in water and can get enough oxygen from the
water to become active. Thus, depriving a land troll of air by, say, drowning
it, would make it "dead" after one hour of submersion,  and as long as the
water was never cleared out of its system, it would be "dead".

That's my best guess. Reducing suffocation to HP damage is a bit illogical,
but it has been done. (Tome of Magic, 7th level Wizard spell, suffocate.)

Of course, you could rate the trolls as CON 25, and use the PHB rules
for drowning...

>
>>poison
>
>	Depends on the poison; it'd have to be one NASTY poison that was
>so nasty that it could outdo even the nearly invincible immune system
>and repair facilities of a troll. Maybe ricin would do, or sea wasp
>( :) ) venom; botulinum might well do the trick; the nerve gases might
>work. But I'd never BET on poison working.

Poison is a temporary aid in dealing with trolls. In my game, the PCs were
short on fighters (all single classed, mix of humans and demi, and just
one fighter) so the AC 10 cleric and AC 7 thief helped out while the
other thief and the psionicist hid in the forest. The thief had the
2nd edition assassin kit and being a nice DM (3rd level party w/ near-max HP
that started at 2nd level w/ max HP, and rolling thereafter) I'd let him
snag poison out of spider glands in the previous battle, enough for one or
two sword strikes. Round 1, he stood back and coated his sword while the troll
ran towards the party. Round 2, he attacked, hit, the troll failed its poison
save (I rolled a 2.) and took weapon dmg + 15 (typa A poison), and on its
initiative, skragged the AC 7 thief by hitting with all 3 attacks. (The thief
was previously wounded and had just 9 HP) The troll did about average, which
is 2d4+1d8+12, or 5 + 4.5 + 12 = ~20. Dead thief. (Yes, while I start out
the characters well, and let them go to -10, I'm merciless on death.)

Now, the fighter finished off the troll the next round since the thief had
done about 19 points to it before dying, everyone decided poison attracts
too much attention and is better used on a barely conscious troll than
one at near-full power.

The moral of the story is that Poison just does HP damage, and is similar
to suffocation, but can be dealt with by regen. Take a look at the
CON table, and notice that high CON gives better poison saves, and really
high CON gives regen, and HP damage can be regenned. If a poison is save
or die, and the troll fails, he's pretty much toast. -10 HP, and even if
he starts regenning, a smart party has already torched him.

The reason the troll is at -10 HP is because while -10 is optional, the DMG
says poison reduces you to 0 HP (which is death by standard PHB rules; oh,
you didn't know that? tsk. Makes for a deadly game. You are alive and
conscious or dead.) and thus, death. If you use -10, that's the minimum death
requirement, and thusly you should be placed there after failing a save-or-die
poison.

>>freezing to death
>
>	Hmm. Tough call. I'd say maybe.  It'd depend on the breed of
>troll. Ice trolls or mountain trolls, probably not.  Also it might
>depend on the intensity of the cold; I might have to rule that cold
>could only kill them if it could overcome  the regen factor -- i.e.,
>cold strong enough to do 3 points per round. Something like -150 degrees.

We had that happen at a con. We tossed trolls onto brown mold and they
were frozen for as long as the mold could suck heat from them, which is
basically forever. Brown mold does 4d8 HP per roud, enough to eventually
put a troll at -10000 HP, effectively dead.

I'd check the cold exposure damage stuff in the Wilderness Survival Guide,
and the PHB or DMG (2nd edition) for how cold something is that causes
3HP/round. I seem to recall figures of 3HP/hour, so maybe you need magical
cold to put a troll on ice. Absolute 0 would work as well :)

>>psychic attacks
>
>	Yep. That'll cash in your chips fast. their MINDS (what little
>there is in some  breeds) don't regenerate, just the bodies.

It's like the wolverine (regennig comic book character) idea:
He has an invulnerable metal skeleton made of comicbookinium, so if you
shot a bullet in thru his eyesocket, it would bounce around forever in his
invulnerable skull, destroying all of his memories. The brain would still
come back tho, and he'd have a child-like mind, as if he'd just been born.
This wouldn't hurt a troll too much, as they already act like kids with
temper tantrums anyways. (See food. Take food. If resisted, fight!) Such
a brain-damaged troll may or may not know to avoid fire, compared to the
ones in 2nd edition that know to avoid fire.

>>disease
>
>	Unless it's some specially magically enhanced one, not a chance in
>hell. Regeneration repairs disease-damaged cells faster than the thing could
>possibly spread.

Sounds right to me.

>>falling long distances
>
>	Nope. Regeneration of the magical sort will repair you even if you
>are a puddle.

Yup. PCs with rings of regen aren't so lucky. The ring must be on an arm
still attached to the torso, which still has a head on it.

>>petrifaction
>
>	Won't necessarily kill you. It will certainly immobilize you.

Definitely. However, any sort of body alteration requires a system shock roll
or you die. A troll failing such a roll (which had better be 99%, and if they
have CON 25, 100%) would be a dead statue, but if turned back to flesh,
would be dead until regen could restore him.

That's how 2nd edition does it, along with some logic. Suffocation is only
defined as HP loss right now, so I suggest defining limits to regen.
While 2nd edition states only fire or acid can stop regen, why can the scrag
(sea-troll) only survive one hour out of water? That's why I think drowning
a troll for one hour would kill it. You're welcome to power-up your trolls,
but please keep it all consistent.

Wayne
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