From: kgivon@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (karen lee givon)
Subject: Re: zionism in crisis
Organization: Indiana University
Distribution: talk
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 19:22:50 GMT

In article <1993Jan22.1777.23089@channel1> "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com> writes:
>To: Karen Lee Givon

Is there some reason this is specifically directed to me?

>After absorbing and thinking about many comments here and in
>email, I have come to the following tentative conclusions:
>
>Jews constitute an ethnic group in both the cultural and
>biological sense. 

What are the biological characteristics that separate Jews from non
Jews? 

Why is it so important to you to categorize people?  That type of
behavior indicates to me that you want to be able to more easily
discriminate.  Is this how you categorize your friends and associates?
Do you say "that's the Jew, that's the Muslim, and that's the
Christian" and then act differently around each one?


Converts play a minuscule role in Jewish life.
I posted a while back about the roles of many converts in my synagogue.
I wrote that out of the 200 member congregation there are at least 15
converts, and those converts are some of the most active and well
respected members of the congregation.  They have been chairpersons of
all the committees, presidents of the Sisterhood and Hadassah (Jewish
women's organizations).  We don't point out who is a convert and who is
not.  Maybe this is the problem you have.  I was talking to my mother
about all this and she told me that there are many more than 15 converts
in our synagogue.  She didn't tell me who they were, it just isn't
important. 

>Judaism is a belief system which reinforces the ethnic character
>of Jews, through its biological symbology and restrictions on
>intermarriage.

I told you what I feel to be the main reason for discouraging
intermarriage.  

>Muslims, Christians, and Buddhists do not constitute ethnic
>groups. Islam, Christianity and Buddhism are universalist belief
>systems which direct themselves to the human race at large
>without regard to ethnicity.

Actually, Islam and Christianity have not only directed themselves to
the human race, but forced themselves on the human race.  Christianity
condemns all non Christians.  Islam does also, but to the extent that
Christianity does.  

Maybe you should just stay away from us Jews if you have such
a problem with us.  I think we Jews would have been a lot better off
throughout history if more non Jews would have done this rather than try
to ram their beliefs down our throats (to quote a previous post of
yours). 

>For instance, despite their ethnic and national differences,
>Irish Catholics, Italian Catholics, and German Catholics can find
>a common ground in their religious symbols.

Ethiopian Jews, American Jews, and Yemenite Jews find a common ground in
their religious symbols.  What'our point?  

>But how can Judaism provide a common ground between Israel and
>the nations, between Jews and other major ethnic groups, when it
>is centered so strongly on Israel and Jews alone?

Who else should Jews center on?  We don't spend all our time and energy
worrying about other religions and whether or not they're doing the
right thing.  It is really not my business to criticize another religion
unless the beliefs directly affect me, and many beliefs do,
unfortunately.  

>If there are ethnic elements in Islam which I have overlooked,
>please bring them to my attention. Islam does not strike me as
>being primarily ethnocentric in nature.

Every group of people is ethnocentric.  A group would not continue to
exist without some degree of ethnocentrism.  That is a matter of human
nature.  It's a bit like rooting for your own school's football team.
Why would you root for another team?
 
>In the bookstore the other day I took a glance at Joseph
>Telushkin's Jewish Literacy. He comments on page 625: "It is
>estimated that five to ten thousand non-Jews convert to Judaism
>annually in the United States." 

Did he say that there was a certain number that was turned away because
a quota was filled?  This seems silly to me.  

Elsewhere he notes that most of
>these conversions are the product of romantic attachments between
>Jews and non-Jews, not strong ideological commitment.

You know something, Wayne, it really isn't important to me whether or
not we have a large number of converts.  Judaism does not actively seek
converts as Christianity does.  This is one thing I like so much about
Judaism.  We don't sit around condemning others to Hell because they
don't have the same beliefs as we do.
  
>If Judaism is a modern universalistic religion that transcends
>ethnicity, this is clearly not a message that has gotten through
>to the world, as judged by its eagerness to convert.

Is this important?  Would you like for us to go out on the streets and
hound people, begging them to convert?  Or maybe we should go door to
door.  Maybe r Rabbis should preach that the more heathens we convert
the better chance we have of getting to Heaven, (something I heard once
in a Baptist church)>

>Combining ethnocentrism with religion with nationalism strikes me
>as a volatile proposition. All three factors can be forces for
>great divisiveness in the world, separately and most assuredly in
>combination. Many of Israel's worsening problems are the product
>of its ideological presuppositions, concepts which perhaps need
>to be rationally examined more than emotionally defended in a
>knee-jerk fashion.

Wayne, what do you want from us?  Do you want us to totally change all
aspects of Judaism so that more people will want to convert?
Christianity did this, didn't it?   Have you noticed that Judaism is the
oldest monotheistic religion?  Have you noticed that we have survived
attrocities that no other group has been subjected to?  We must be doing
something right, we're still here.  

Keren
 
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