From: jakhan@IASTATE.EDU (Javed Ahmed Khan)
Subject: Re: Pakistan
Reply-To: jakhan@IASTATE.EDU (Javed Ahmed Khan)
Organization: Iowa State University
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1992 21:34:16 GMT

In article <ljmtdsINN4s3@pageboy.cs.utexas.edu>, hyder@cs.utexas.edu (Syed Irfan
Hyder) writes:
> In article <1992Dec23.164324@IASTATE.EDU> jakhan@IASTATE.EDU (Javed Ahmed
Khan) writes:
> >In article <ljhe2rINNg3s@pageboy.cs.utexas.edu>, hyder@cs.utexas.edu (Syed
Irfan
> >Hyder) writes:
> >> 
> >> Well, for that you need to read the whole of  Quran. The Quranic
> >> verses were simply given by me, because the post explicitly mentioned
> >> not to go by Hadiths. As you know, Hadiths of the prophet explain
> >> where and when to apply such verses.
> >> 
> >> My reason for citing such verses was to impress that Hadith have
necessarily
> >> to be used in conjunction with Quran. Quran explicitly asks
> >> us to do so in atleast 9 places. 
> >>
> >Thats subjective again.
> >
> >
> 
> What is subjective? Are you saying that it is my subjective
> opinion that  Quran explicitly mentions at least  at nine
> places to use the example of the Prophet (pbuh)?
> 


Let me straighten a few things out. I said that the hadith need not be quoted
because of the doubts about the authenticity of many of the hadiths. The
discussion could easily degenerate into one about the authenticity about
hadiths
as has been done on many earlier occassions on this net.


I'll quote what I had asked in the original article and see if you can
understand what I'm asking.

I asked:

============================================================================

Perhaps you could furnish some evidence from the Quran where it states that
its the God-ordained duty of all muslims to drive out non-muslims from their
         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
lands or force them to accept the supremacy of muslims and create a political
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
entity -> an "islamic" state.  


Don't quote some hadith because I don't accept it as divine or in any way
binding. Just quote the Quran.
=============================================================================


in response to which you wrote:
============================================================================
   Fight those people who do not believe in Allah, nor in the Day of 
   Judgement, nor do they treat as forbidden that which has been forbidden 
   by Allah and His Prophet, and who do not make the true DEEN their 
   DEEN; fight them until they decide to submit and agree to pay the 'jizya'. 
		[Al Taubah 9:29]

   Insofar as Allah's scheme for man goes, the only DEEN for him is 
   ISLAM and none other. [Ale Imran 3:19]

   And whosoever seeks any DEEN other than ISLAM, it shall never 
   receive acceptance. [Ale Imran 3:85]

o	Primary mission of the prophet: DEEN of Allah must prevail

   It is He__ ALlah_ Who sent His Messenger with true Guidance, and with 
   the True DEEN to make it triumph over other DEENs, caring naught 
   what annoyance this may cause to those who associate others with Him. 
   [Al Taubah 9:33]

o	Fight any system of thought, belief, and action not based on supreme 
authority until unrest, strife and injustice has been eliminated.

   And continue the fight against them until all mischief is effectively 
   destroyed and the only DEEN holding sway is Allah's DEEN and none 
   other. [Al Anfaal 8:39]
==============================================================================


Now what I didn't understand is whether one can imply from these quotes that the
Quran explicitly enjoins upon all muslims to kill and drive out non-muslims from
their homeland.

You will now jump on me and say that the hadith is therefore necessary to
explain the circumstances under which these quotes are to be used. 

I will say sure but the events in the "accepted hadiths" are open to
interpretation and even their authenticity may be suspect.

I would rely more on my judgement and my experience to interpret the Quran than
to rely on hadith whose validity can be challenged.

However it is the prerogative of other muslims to believe that the hadith are
genuine. 

But to assuage you hurt feelings I'll agree to examine relevant hadiths you
quote ( even if I have to take the risk of accepting the hadith as genuine) 

WHY WAS PARTITION NECESSARY? (finally coming back to the central subject of this
thread)




> Do you want me to quote the factual positions of Quran on this
> issue?


You don't need to do that. I know.



> 
> Once before you asked me to do that. When I did that you completely
>  somersaulted by refusing to even admit that Quran is the word of God.
   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


Come on now, don't make things up.

Perhaps you have perfected a technique of reading more that what was written.

You are only making false allegations.

I'm saying this once again:

Read what I had written very closely and you will not fail to find the 
qualification present in that sentence I had written.



> 
> Sura 2
> 
> 8. And there are some people who say: We believe in Allah
> and the last day; and they are not at all believers.
> 
> 9. They desire to deceive Allah and those who believe, and
> they deceive only themselves and they do not perceive.
> 
> 10. There is a disease in their hearts, so Allah added to their
> disease and they shall have a painful chastisement because they
> 




Seeing your attitude I don't think its fruitful to continue this thread
with you any further.


One small suggestion:

Try looking at people as humans rather than religious labels and
you may discover the true meaning of the Quran.


PEACE


--Javed.