HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: claudius@leland.Stanford.EDU (Nelson Lu)
Subject: Re: Rob Ducey (Was Re: Cuyler: put on DL?)
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Distribution: na
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 92 14:54:23 GMT

In article <Bs99z2.9FG@knot.ccs.queensu.ca> tarun@psyclops.psyc.queensu.ca (Tarun Kripalani) writes:

>For Mark Eichorn??? Why??? The Jays let him go a few years
>and they said something like he has a couple of pitches and 
>he hasn't got much control and everyone in the AL can hit
>his pitches. Ack!! The Jays would probably do better by 
>trading Cito away!!

Eichhorn is having quite a fun time "having no control," having walked just 13
in 81 2/3 innings last season and just 18 in 54 2/3 innings this season...

He has always had very good control, even in his worst season (with Atlanta
in '89), where he walked 19 in 68 1/3 innings.  His last season with the Blue
Jays, he had a "horrible" 27 in 66 2/3 innings, which, however, was definitely
not Mitch Williams-like.  For the last season, he was more like Dennis
Eckersley.

===============================================================================
GO CALIFORNIA ANGELS!
GO TEAM CHINESE TAIPEI!
GO TEAM USA!	(Hey, I can sit on the fence, can't I?)
===============================================================================
Nelson Lu (claudius@leland.stanford.edu)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Value of Stats
From: guilford@otago.ac.nz
Date: 28 Jul 92 16:18:07 +1300
 <3797@blue.cis.pitt.edu.UUCP> <1992Jul27.155847.9929@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca> <3811@blue.cis.pitt.edu.UUCP>
Organization: University of Otago, Dunedin, New Zealand

In article <3811@blue.cis.pitt.edu.UUCP>, dtate+@pitt.edu (David M Tate) writes:

> If we use each player's batting average, OBP, and SLG to estimate the 
> difference they would make in team run-scoring over the course of a season
> on an average team, and then adjust for actual playing time, we get what's
> called a "marginal lineup value" (MLV).  The units are "team runs above what
> an average offensive player would have produced".  If we then add in stolen
> base runs (at 0.3 runs per SB-2CS), we get an estimate of total offensive
> contribution to the team run-scoring effort, above or below average.  For
> 1991, the relevant numbers are:
> 
> 	Bonds:		48.6 + 5.1 = 53.7 marginal runs
> 	Puckett:	25.2 + 0.3 = 25.5 marginal runs
> 	Salazar:	 4.5 - 1.8 =  2.7 marginal runs
> 
> Greg's original claim, that Puckett's stats are closer to Salazar's than they
> are to Bonds's, still holds true when you look at total contribution over the
> season.  Had Salazar played full-time, it would be even closer.

But of course this is dead wrong.  If "closer" is a meaningful thing,
then Puckett is closer to Bonds than Salazar.  If "closer" is just a
linear thing, then Puckett is closer to Salazar.  Assuming this 
particular metric holds up to transformations.

To see this, note that there are far more guys between Puckett and Salazar 
than between Puckett and Bonds.

Bill Guilford
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: djohnson@cayley.waterloo.edu (David Johnson)
Subject: Re: Value of Stats
Organization: University of Waterloo
Distribution: na
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 15:58:32 GMT

In article <1992Jul23.154129.13279@cs.cornell.edu> tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer) writes:
>In article <BruJ08.M5o@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu> djohnson@cayley.waterloo.edu (David Johnson) writes:
>>
>>I do think that there are some players
>>who will always get along with others and never be a problem.
>
>Oh?  Like Tony Gwynn?  Dave Winfield?  I believe I've even heard of
>somebody taking a dislike to Cal Ripken.  *NOBODY* gets along with
>everybody.  Unless they are such total recluses that nobody ever
>notices they are around.  And then the "rah-rah" guys get on their
>cases for not being more active in the clubhouse.

You are probably right that nobody gets along with everybody but there are
many people who never create problems when this occurs.

>>What happened to Sheffield was that in Milwaukee the fans got on his case
>>for whatever reason and he let it bother him and it affected his play.
>
>Sheffield blames his problems on a personality conflict (or something)
>with two well-loved and respected players, Yount and Molitor.  I'm
>inclined to believe him.  Not that Yount or Molitor necessarily did
>anything wrong.  But if Sheffield says that he didn't get along with
>them and it affected his play...

Well however the problem started or whatever the problem is he let it effect
his play.  Now my point is if he gets the same problem in San Diego why
would i not suspect that it will affect his play there.

>>How can the manager control personality conflicts between two players or
>>control the fans who are booing a player.  He can't.
>
>Managers can't *control* their players.  But they are certainly in a
>position to help ease differences before they escalate into Conflicts.
>This is one of the most important parts of a manager's job.  (Which is
>why Cito might not be such a horrible manager, even if he is an idiot.
>He does seem to be able to keep his players happy.)

I don't think that Cito is a horrible manager.  He is just a bad field 
manager.  

>>I will give you an example.  George Bell and Junoir Felix.  My impression
>>and the media's as well was that they didn't like each other.  This is
>>fine but they let it disrupt their play and the teams play.  I think that
>>this is why neither Felix or Bell are now in Toronto and guys like Carter
>>and Alomar are.  I believe Carter and Alomar can get along with almost
>>anyone.
>
>Seems to me that Carter had personality-conflict problems in San
>Diego, no?  And from what I've heard, Alomar gets along with people by
>staying out of the clubhouse politics all together.  Which is probably
>a smart move for a young player.  Especially for a young player with
>so much talent.

Carter doesn't let personality conflicts affect his play which is a great
asset for him to have and if Alomar has to stay out of Clubhouse politics
to stay out problems then great, he knows how to avoid problems. 

>Cheers,
>-Valentine
>-- 
>If Plantier goes, I go!				tedward@cs.cornell.edu
From: kbos@carina.unm.edu (Kurt Bose "of Biscayzee")
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: MLB Standings and Scores for Mon, Jul 27th, 1992
Date: 31 Jul 92 02:19:01 GMT
Organization: University of New Mexico

In article <1992Jul29.215400.4939@uwm.edu> paul@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Paul R Krueger) writes:
>And, no I don't want to start a big diccussion about it, but stats are
>overrated! 

And just what rating system did you use to come up with this conclusion?

Was it an A-F rating, or a 1-100 system?  Did you compensate for sampling error?
How does personal experience rate compared to stats?  How about throwing darts
at a map of North America?

Are you sure of your methods, or did you allow for interpretation?

(Anyone who seriously responds to this post is terminally silly.)


-- 
Kurt Bose (as in Daisy, not Rose) - kbos@carina.unm.edu - I'm not the AntiChrist
I AM a Junior Stathead.  Flame me; it's fun!  I'm a shutmouthed, selfless idiot!
Latest Attempted Compiler of the R.S.BB FAQ - Now Accepting Submissions...(hint)
Have you hugged a Dan Gladden fan today? - Dave Rossing : .456/39/132 at Denver!
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: g_waugaman@nac.enet.dec.com (Glenn R. Waugaman)
Subject: Re: ARTIFICIAL TURF: EMBARASSMENT TO THE GAME
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 16:47:03 GMT


In article <9207211520.AA21022@sumac09.cray.com>, jjd@TEAK.CRAY.COM (Jeff Drummond) writes...
> 
>Well, I don't know if I actually *like* artificial turf, but I think
>it gets a bad rap.  Whenever a player hits a high chopper off the
>plate (or the dirt in front of the plate), someone is usually ready
>to blame the turf.  One mitigating factor about home park effects
>(like giant walls in left field, long grass or artificial turf) is
>that both teams play on the same field.  It's not like the Red Sox
>can claim they've never played on turf before; or even that they've
>never played in the MetroMuffin before.  The MetroMuffin and it's
>turf are old news.  I wonder if we'd be having this discussion if
>Boston had won 3 out of 4 in Minneapolis instead of losing 3 out of
>4?

If not from Boston, then from somewhere else.  Since they've been in the 
Metrodome, Minnesota has demonstrated the largest home/road differential,
by far, of all the teams in baseball.  They know how to play that park, 
especially the roof backdrop, and apparently the teams that come in twice 
a year don't pick it up.  From experience, it seems to me that one game 
every series seems to turn against Boston because someone loses a ball in 
the roof, or misplays a turf carom.  I know they lost two fly balls in a 
close loss there earlier this year, and this past weekend was a nightmare.

The plate/dirt area might as well be artificial turf in an artificial turf 
park, because instead of soil there's concrete a few inches below.  The 
dirt area is very hard, and produces the same high bounces as the turf 
does.  In fact, the concrete below probably produces most of the turf 
bounce.

This past Saturday, Roger Clemens pitched a two-hitter in the Metrodome. 
The first hit was a home-plate area Baltimore chop that wouldn't have been
a hit in all but the most dried-out grass infields.  The second hit was a
bloop to centerfield that Billy Hatcher didn't pick up against the roof.
The game was virtual no-hitter, one of those few where the pitcher is
dominant and has a chance at the no-hitter if he gets the breaks.  Who
knows what might have happened if the field hadn't played a factor? 

I don't even want to talk about Sunday's game, where among other things a
damned speaker played a factor (Tom Kelly: "we deserved to get beat").  I
understand that balls hitting off speakers present the same chances for
both teams, but that just ain't baseball in my book... 

---
Glenn Waugaman
Digital Equipment Corporation
Littleton, MA
g_waugaman@nac.enet.dec.com
---
From: adams@spss.com (Steve Adams)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: YEEEESSSSS!!!!!
Date: 22 Jul 92 22:05:12 GMT
Organization: SPSS Inc.

stanm@comm.mot.com (Stan Macasieb) writes:

>In article 711821279@spssig, adams@spss.com (Steve Adams) writes:
>>stanm@comm.mot.com (Stan Macasieb) writes:
>>
>>
>>>After watching the Cubs put together a pitching clinic on the Reds 1-0,
>>Belcher didn't exactly do to bad, either.  The only run was a home run by
>>ex-Red Billy Hatcher.  A great pitchers' duel.

>Uh, wait. Don't you mean Kal Daniels? BTW, Hatcher was also a former Cub.
Yeah...I cancelled the article...but obviously not fast enoug.  Teach me to
think before I type...

>>>Life is good again in Chicago.
>>I wouldn't get my hopes up...

>That last line should've had a smiley face, so here it is:    :)

Now that I believe!

 -Steve
--
 The opinions expressed above are those of the author and not SPSS, Inc.
                        -------------------
     adams@spss.com                           Phone: (312) 329-3522
     Steve Adams                              Fax:   (312) 329-3558
From: dswartz@redondo.sw.stratus.com (Dan Swartzendruber)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Errors on Double Plays (Was: Re: Mo Vaughn - All Star 1st Baseman)
Date: 31 Jul 92 00:55:46 GMT
Organization: Stratus Computer, Software Engineering

In article <92205.004349IO20456@MAINE.MAINE.EDU> IO20456@MAINE.MAINE.EDU (Ryan Robbins) writes:
>I didn't see the play in question in which Vaughn dropped a throw
>that would have completed a double play, but the scorer probably
>had doubt in his mind that had Vaughn caught and held onto the ball
>the batter-runner would have been out.

He shouldn't.  I was watching the game, and from the 1st base camera's
point of view, the ball hit Vaughn's glove while the batter was a good
step away.

>Rule 10.14c: No error shall be charged against any fielder when he
>makes a wild throw in attempting to complete a double play or
>triple play, unless such wild throw enables any runner to advance
>beyond the base he would have reached had the throw not been wild.
>
>The casebook ruling specifically addresses a fielder muffing a
>thrown ball which results in the second runner being safe.
>
>The only time a fielder is not charged with an error in an
>attempted double or triple play is when his throw does not allow
>a runner or runners to advance more bases than they would have
>had had the throw not been wild. So, if the shortstop or second
>baseman throw the ball away and the batter-runner or another
>runner advances another base because of that wild throw, then
>the fielder making that throw is charged with an error. If a
>runner advances because of a wild throw on an attempted double
>or triple play, then an error is charged. The rule does not
>apply to dropped balls.

It should be.  If the fielder didn't make an error, the batter would
have been out, and I don't see how that is that much better than letting
another runner advance an extra base.  Giving away outs is never good!


-- 

Dan S.
From: jimdean@bnr.ca (Jim Dean)
Subject: RULEBOOK QUESTION. Ryan, Help Me!
Originator: jimdean@bcrks81
Reply-To: jimdean@bnr.ca
Organization: Bell-Northern Research
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 13:00:40 GMT


While watching the game before mine last night, I noticed a player
whose hair was so long it went down almost to his waistline. It hangs
straight and loose (no pony tail) out of his batting helmet.  When he
runs it sticks out quite far behind him.

My question: Say this batter hits a grounder to short. A bad throw
brings the firstbaseman up the line.  He catches the ball but is well
off the bag. His sweep tag goes right through the long hair, but
otherwise does not touch his body. Out or safe?

-- 
Jim Dean (Internet: jimdean@bnr.ca) +-----+    National Capital Baseball League
mild-mannered computer scientist -->|Phone|--> President. Pitcher. My knuckler?
Bell-Northern Research, Ottawa,Ont. |Booth|    Not too legit to hit!  5-0, 1.91
Phone: (613) 763-2135 Fax: 763-7241 +-----+    Phone: (613) 723-1580
From: francus@e2big.mko.dec.com (Yoseff Francus)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Past World Series
Date: 23 Jul 92 17:32:15 GMT
Reply-To: francus@e2big.mko.dec.com (Yoseff Francus)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation

In article <9207231531.AA01733@dseg.ti.com> noonan@icd3 (Michael Noonan) writes:
>Does anyone have a list of past World Series?  By that I mean a list of
>the two teams who played in it each year and which one won.
>
>Any help is appreciated.  Especially if you have the last 10 Series.
>
>Thanks in advance...
>-Mike Noonan

Here goes 1944-1992, with the the 1940's and some of the 1950's sketchy

1944 Cardinals beat Browns in ?
1945 Tigers beat Cubs (in 7?)
1946 Cardinals beat Red Sox in 7
1947 Yankees beat Dodgers(?)
1948 Indians beat ?
1949 Yankees beat ?
1950 Yankees beat Phillies  in 4
1951 Yankees beat Giants
1952 Yankees beat ?
1953 Yankees beat Dodgers(?)
1954 Giants beat Indians in 4
1955 Dodgers beat Yankees in 7
1956 Yankees beat Dodgers in 7
1957 Braves beat Yankees in 7(?)
1958 Yankees beat Braves in 7
1959 Dodgers beat Whie Sox
1960 Pirates beat Yankees in 7
1961 Yankees beat Redsd in 5
1962 Yankees beat Giants in 7
1963 Dodgers beat Yankees in 4
1964 Cardinals beat Yankees in 7
1965 Dodgers beat Twins in 7
1966 Orioles beat Dodgers in 4
1967 Cardinals beat Red Sox in 7
1968 Tigers beat Cardinals in 7
1969 Mets beat Orioles in 5
1970 Orioles beat Reds in 5
1971 Pirates beat Orioles in 7
1972 A's beat Reds in 7
1973 A's beat Mets in 7
1974 A's beat Dodgers in 5
1975 Reds beat Red Sox in 7
1976 Reds beat Yankees in 4
1977 Yankees beat Dodgers in 6
1978 Yankees beat Dodgers in 6
1979 Pirates beat Orioles in 7
1980 Phillies beat Royals in 6
1981 Dodgers beat Yankees in 6
1982 Cardinals beat Brewers in 7
1983 Orioles beat Phillies in 5
1984 Tigers beat Padres in 5
1985 Royals beat Cardinals in 7
1986 Mets beat Red SOx in 7
1987 Twins beat Cardinals in 7
1988 Dodgers beat A's in 5
1989 A's beat Giants in 4
1990 Reds beat A's in 4
1991 Twins beta Braves in 7

The Crazy Met

-- 
In Xanadu did Kubla Khan
A stately pleasure dome decree
But only if the NFL 
To a franchise would agree
From: dae@cbnews.cb.att.com (david.a.elliott)
Subject: Re: RC/27 for CFs
Organization: AT&T
Distribution: na
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 19:20:04 GMT

In article <1992Jul21.153228.1782@island.COM> fester@island.COM (Mike Fester) writes:
>In article <1992Jul17.190453.27517@leland.Stanford.EDU> claudius@leland.Stanford.EDU (Nelson Lu) writes:
>>However, Thurman has only gotten 103 ABs this year, and McRae has had 3 times
>>as much.  I don't consider 103 AB enough to really see that Thurman is worse
>>than McRae.

>>Thurman is no offensive monster.  He is not even an average offensive CF.
>>However, he did show an excellent OBP in '90 at the AAA level and was not
>>shabby last year in the majors, his first full season.

>>However, he is 27, so he should be around peak already.  But he seems to be
>>another case of never getting a real opportunity to show himself.

>He had one good year in the high minors, he makes lots of errors for a part-
>time player, he's got 2 HR in almost 600 major league ABS, and a career BA of
>below .245 (and he's worse than that this year), he's 5 for 11 in SB, and
>has a lower OBP than McRae. Looks like he really has shown what he's capable
>of doing; it's just not very much.

Thurman was 15/20 last year in SB, and had an excellent SB record in the
minors (far better than McRae's).  He's been lousy this year, but he's been
used in pinch running/obvious steal situations a lot, so I don't think it
means too much.

He's every bit as fast as McRae (maybe faster), but he's not as good of a
defender.  He has zero power, but he had several good years in the minors
in terms of getting on base.

When you consider their skills and demonstrated track record, I'd rate them
equivalent players.  Neither one is a major league starter.


Dave Elliott
Organization: Senior, IM - MCS/CIT Track, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 00:16:14 -0400 
From: Pravin Devineni Ratnam <pr0i+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Pirate catching

Pirate catching has been disgraceful. La vAlliers does have a
respectable average for a catcher(well this year is an exception). He
has an above average arm. Has no power. Has to be the slowest runner by
a huge margin. I think he is an overrated catcher. You would think
getting paid more than 2 million would make him diet a bit and put less
strain on those knees.

Slaught has been hitting well(no power as usual, but gets some doubles).
However, his defense has been terrible. 

LaValliere, Lind, and the pitcher's spot makes for one of the wimpiest
7-8-9 spots in major leagues.

The catchers have been one of the main reasons why the Pirate are not
running away from the rest of the division.
From: sinhaa@maccs.dcss.mcmaster.ca (Anand Sinha)
Subject: Re: 1992 r.s.bb Mock Expansion Draft
Organization: Department of Computer Science, McMaster University
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 16:16:59 GMT

In article <BruJp4.n4D@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu> djohnson@cayley.waterloo.edu (David Johnson) writes:
>In article <1992Jul22.223833.14896@news2.cis.umn.edu> kirsch@epx.cis.umn.edu (Dave Hung Like a Jim Acker Slider Kirsch) writes:
>
>>For example, I'll be representing the Jays
>>along with one other owner. Although I don't necessarily want to, I'll
>>probably wind up having to protect Manuel "don't call me Mann E' Lee just
>>because the Jays probably will. However, I probably won't protect Rance
>>Mulliniks or Jack Morris. The Jays will likely let Rance float as a free 
>>agent even though he's a 10/5 man. In Morris' case, my rationale is "He's a 
>>37 year old pitcher with a $5+ million contract
>
>Add Dave Steib to this list.  He is also a 10/5 man but unless he has a great
>second half (which I don't think that he will) he may go like Rance.  I think
>that they would rather protect younger pitching prospects.  I wonder if teams
>will try and get around 10/5 players who will not likely get taken in the
>draft by trading them to another team for their 10/5 man and then trade them
>back after the draft.  This way they would not have to be protected and would
>not have to be dumped by the team.  Does anyone know if there is some kind
>of rule which would prevent this or is this legal.
>

Unfortunately, the Jays cannot let Stieb go unprotected.  He is a 10/5 man as
Mulliniks, but unlike Mulliniks, Stieb is under contract.  Mulliniks will be 
a free agent this year, Stieb will not. 

Besides, with Dave, I think the Jays will keep him *anyways*.  Despite his 
bad clubhouse influence (other thread sorry), he is the first bona fide star
the Jays had, which is precisely the reason they signed him to a multi-year
deal.  He, like George Brett, has what amounts to a contract for life. 

Ah, and Dave Kirsch...Mr Lee has gone back to "Mann E" because he thinks that 
Manuel that he used last year cursed him.  Whatever, he is hitting well (4th
best OBP of the Jays starters ..that's SCARY), and seems more relaxed 
in the field.

Anand Sinha
Blue Jays #1 -> all the way in '92
Roberto Alomar for MVP
Juan Guzman for Cy Young
From: sivaram@plains.NoDak.edu (Sivaram Hariharan )
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: As/Twins Game-10.......7/29/92
Date: 31 Jul 92 16:43:26 GMT
Organization: North Dakota State University, Fargo

Eric Fox once again proved to be the nemesis, as he
hit a 3-run homer in the top of the 9th, to give a
5-4 lead to the As over the Twins. The long ball
has hurt the Twins throughout this crucial series.
The ever-relaible EK then closed the door on the
Twins.

One could only pity poor Bill krueger, who had the As
scoreless for 7 innings after he had escaped a shaky
1st inning, in which he had given 2 unearned runs.
Krueger, who has never registered a win over the As
in his MLB career, saw a win taken right off under
his nose. 

As starter, Stewart, escped with a no-decision. Twice
he escaped with bases loaded situations. But that should
not take anything away from the As as they have clearly
outplayed the Twins in this series. So far in the 10
games played, both the As and the Twins are locked 10-10.
The Twins are in a slump, but the consolation is that
they lose tough even when they are in a slump.

The Twins lost another one yesterday to the Brewers, 5-3
and as i was out of stattion yesterday, couldn't follow
the match on KNOX radio.

S.H
Forever, a Twins' fan...

Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: clmn@ellis.uchicago.edu (Bill Coleman)
Subject: Re: Cangelosi update
Reply-To: clmn@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Department of Economics
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 23:06:00 GMT

In article <1992Jul20.194247.10761@adobe.com> snichols@adobe.com (Sherri Nichols) writes:
>Since my name is inextricably linked with John Cangelosi's, I thought I'd
>point out to the world that once again, Cangelosi is not taking up a major
>league roster spot, as the Rangers released him and his .188 batting
>average this weekend to make room on the roster for Monty Fariss.
>
>Please, don't anybody tell the Pirates he's available...

Well, since I've always been in love with Cangelosi, let me suggest that the
White Sox might consider his pitching prowess, given our well-publicized
difficulties with Thigpen and Radinsky.  This is assuming, of course, that
Doug Dascenzo isn't available!

Bill Coleman
A True John Cangelosi Fan



-- 
Bill Coleman
clmn@midway.uchicago.edu
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball