HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ses2@po.CWRU.Edu (S. E. Stansfield)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan,talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: The meaning of "pagan"
Date: 7 Jan 1993 20:01:41 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: ses2@po.CWRU.Edu (S. E. Stansfield)
NNTP-Posting-Host: slc5.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, drake+@cs.cmu.edu (Drake) says:

>*DISCLAIMER* The opinions and thoughts which I present here on this thread
>and in this post are not necessarily my own.  They are reactions, both past
>and projected, by Christian fundamentalists to the arguments presented.  I
>deliberately take this position to further understand the reasoning behind
>it and educate myself on some aspects of apologetics.
>
>
>I know this because God has promised this in his Holy Scriptures, and
>God cannot lie.

If this is true, then how come his book says that pi = 3.0?
>
-- 
When subtlety fails us we must make do with cream pies.
                                                    --David Brin
From: alizard@tweekco.uucp (A.Lizard)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Religious Taxation
Date: Sat, 09 Jan 93 17:26:14 PST
Organization: Tweek-Com Systems BBS, Moraga, CA (510) 631-0615

pciszek@nyx.cs.du.edu (Paul Ciszek) writes:
> Could someone please explain the difference between "churches" and "non-
> profit organizations" in tax laws?  Also, am I correct in assuming that a
> profitable business owned by a church (i.e., PepsiCo and the LDS) must pay
> its taxes as a business, before turning the profit over to the church?

I think the main difference is in areas like local property taxes,
where churches don't have to pay and a charity does. However, since
I'm not a tax accountant or lawyer, I'd like to see one give an
authoritative answer on this... one of us might want to start a
church one of these days. ;-)

A.Lizard

-------------------------------------------------------------------
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PGP2.0 public key available on request.
From: casspa@atlantis.CS.ORST.EDU (Paul Cass)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Documented Evidence
Date: 9 Jan 93 02:05:32 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Outreach Services - Oregon State University
NNTP-Posting-Host: atlantis.cs.orst.edu

In article <1359@abb-sc.abb-sc.COM> ksm@abb-sc.abb-sc.com (Ashley) writes:
>
>
>	I would suggest though that if one wanted to know what the old religion 
>was like one would want to study the simple things in a farming community's 
>relationship with nature. Wouldn't their magick and religion be simple too? 

Not necessarily simple, rather pragmatic and to the point.  
>
>	On that note, I remembered a book on my shelf the other day that was 
>supposedly written by someone who has a English family passed tradition. What 
>does everyone think of the book "West County Wicca" by Rhiannon Rhylls? Marion 
>Weinstein wrote the intro, so apparently she thinks it's authentic. Looks 
>
>
>			- Ashley

I have read "West County Wicca" and enjoyed it throughly.  Someone on
IRC told me that it had been proven to be made up.  Could be, but it
seems like a useful practical book, especially for someone new to Wicca
and trying to get a sense of what it is all about.  I think that Rhiannon
Rhylls is someone I would like to spend time getting to know.  If her
history did not happen the way she describes - it should have.  She brings
forth a sense of community through her description of the various rituals.
All participants are active and involved which is the way I like to see
circles, covens, and communities.
BB
Paul

-- 
                          * * * * * * *
"It is possible to join forces, to identify common goals, and to agree on
 common action." - U.N. World Commission on Development and Environment
		       casspa@jacobs.cs.orst.edu
From: corun@access.digex.com (Corun MacAnndra)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Question/symbol
Date: 4 Jan 1993 17:08:25 GMT
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.com

In article <1993Jan1.235034.14987@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> lrabe@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Lee A Rabe) writes:
>
>A question for the net:
>
>Does anyone know the meaning/symbolism of a double-bladed axehead?  I have 
>seen this sticker on the rear bumpers of several cars lately, and was curious
>as to it's meaning.  
>
>Thanks,
>
>TopCat
>

This is the labrys (not sure of spelling, labris maybe). It's a symbol
used (to the best of my knowledge) by many lesbians (or pagan lesbians)
as an identifying mark. As I understand it (and please correct me if I'm
out of line), it represents not only the Amazonian/Renunciate point of
view of gay women, but also signifies the Goddess with the opposed curves
of the axe blade representing the moon in it's phases. This is how I
understand it, and I got my info from some lesbian friends.

Bb,
Corun



-- 
===========================================================================
    Corun MacAnndra    |
  Dark Horde by birth  |	Avid readers make novel lovers.
    Moritu by choice   |
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: joann@unixhub.SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Jo Ann Malina)
Subject: Re: Help with Songs...
Organization: Stanford Linear Accelerator Center
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1993 12:54:21 GMT

In article <1362@abb-sc.abb-sc.COM> ksm@abb-sc.abb-sc.com (Ashley) writes:
>
>In article <1iibbrINNm5b@shelley.u.washington.edu>, mkkuhner@phylo.genetics.washington.edu (Mary K. Kuhner) writes...
>
>Liabana is a all women group that puts out tapes of many better known pagan 
>songs as well as thier own material, you might try looking for them in your 
>local Tower Records. I found a tape of theirs there once in the New Age section 
>under a hand drawn card marked "Wiccan Music" (gee, I wonder if a Witch works 
>there, hmmmm!)

The only Libana tape I'd call "pagan" is "A Circle is Cast." Their other
releases concentrated on women's music from various countries, in the
original languages. Nice, but not singalong material.

Reclaiming has put out two chants tapes. They can be ordered through
the mail. The first one is "Reclaiming Chants Tape," the new one (1992)
is "Let It Begin Now." $10 each plus 7.5% tax for California residents.
$1.50 shipping for first tape, $1.00 each additional tape (add $3.00
for each overseas mailing, International Postal Money Orders only).
Check or money order payable to: Serpentine Music Productions,
PO Box 1667, Forestville, CA 95436.

I've been looking for my copy of the Ladyslipper catalog of Women's
music to post the address but no luck. They have a goodly amount of
pagan stuff, mainly from pagan women. Anyone else have this?

*) *) *) *) *) *) *) *) *) *) *)!(* (* (* (* (* (* (* (* (* (* (* (* (*
Jo Ann Malina, Stanford Linear Accelerator Center
joann@unixhub.slac.stanford.edu  -or-  415/926-2846
Neither Stanford nor the DOE would be caught dead with these opinions.
Nor do they consult me when formulating theirs.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
It ain't what they call you, it's what you answer to.     -Bill Clinton
From: alizard@tweekco.uucp (A.Lizard)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Documented Evidence
Date: Tue, 05 Jan 93 23:45:30 PST
Organization: Tweek-Com Systems BBS, Moraga, CA (510) 631-0615

markbr%radian@natinst.com (markbr) writes:
> Am I nuts, (yeah, I know) or do I see what Tammy said above as leading to
> implying that, analagous to "high" and "low" magic, there's Wicca ("high"
> witchcraft) and family trad, or individual ("low" magic)?
> 
> 	mark

My reading indicates that "high" magick was theurgic in nature, and
that "low" magick was ... spells, rituals, etc. for manipulating
reality to gain personal advantage. (a lover, a job, whatever...)
Blessings...
A.Lizard

-------------------------------------------------------------------
A.Lizard Internet Addresses:
alizard%tweekco%boo@PacBell.COM        (preferred)
[path]!pacbell.COM!boo!tweekco!alizard (bang path for above)
alizard@gentoo.com (backup) alizard@Blue.Kludge.com (if all else fails)
PGP2.0 public key available on request.
From: ksm@abb-sc.abb-sc.com (Ashley)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Pagan Carol Songbooks
Date: 12 Jan 93 19:01:13 GMT
Organization: Kaos Laboratories


	I have here in my hands the Homebrewed Book Of Pagan Carols. This 
collection has songs for every season and is quite useful! I would suspect 
that it would be available from the publisher who is:

	Homebrewed Productions
	2140 Shattuck Ave. #2236
	Berkeley, CA 94704

	I don't know the price as I got it as a gift a few years ago and I 
presume the tear on the cover is where it was printed. The songs are great and 
I've used them to go Pagan Caroling during the season a few times.

	It's quite a useful sourse for holliday songs and reciepies and 
activities too! I know I've seen her post here, so blessings and thanks 
to Leigh Ann Hussey who put this book together!


	Another sourse for winter holliday songs is BAPA's (Bay Area Pagan 
Assemblies) Yuletide Songsfest. This booklet is available from BAPA at a 
cost of $2.50. Here's the address:

	Bay Area Pagan Assembiles
	P.O. Box 850
	Freemont, CA 94537-0850

	(510)656-GAIA (voice/fax)


			Blessings and good song - 

				- Ashley
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: markbr%radian@natinst.com (markbr)
Subject: Re: Family passed religions
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 19:12:36 GMT
Organization: n.o.y.b

In article <1ie6ihINN5jj@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> SL500000@brownvm.brown.edu (Robert Mathiesen) writes:
>Many thanks, Ashley; you have now given me enough to see where your friend's
>tradition fits into the whole spectrum of what is out there, in a general
>kind of way, and in her case I am indeed inclined to think her claims of an
>unbroken, underground family tradition of magical non-Christian religion are
>reasonable.  The key elements, for my understanding at least, were your ref-
>erences to Eastern Europe and to Matthew's article.  There are two such liv-
>ing Eastern European traditions of which I have heard something; and as Ash-
>ley said, they are not precisely Wicca, but similar enough to suggest some
>relatedness.  Many of the regions in question were officially Christianized
>very late indeed, and superficially Christianized, at that, so that it was
>possible in principle for a shrewd folklorist to have recovered in the last
>century, or even to recover now, not just relics, but a whole more-or-less
>intact pre-Christian magical religion.  Lithuania, for example, became of-
>ficially Christian in the 1300's, if memory serves me rightly -- and that
>was just the elite, not the peasants. And Hungary, though Christianized
>much earlier, kept a strong sense of difference from the rest of Christian
>Europe, including a living tradition of a kind of native Hungarian shamanism
>that survives until today.
>
>However, these traditions were already known to some extent, and had been
>described in print in English or French (Gardner read both languages),
>before 1939, and even before 1929; indeed, they had had something of a
>vogue in Western European occult circles for a time prior to those dates.
>Consequently, it is *possible* that Gardner drew his materials from these
>publications rather than from contact with a group such as Matthews
>describes, or the other one that Ann Ross has found (if indeed it is
>another one, and not the same one that Matthews encountered).
>
Robert, 
   I think it would be of interest to most of us if you could reference
some of the literature that you mention on eastern European traditions,
esp if anything's still in print.

   Thanks!

	mark

Xref: sparky alt.pagan:15115 misc.kids:31977
From: traite@eros.harvard.edu (Shirley Traite)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan,misc.kids
Subject: Welcoming Ritual (Was: First birthday party ideas?)
Date: 8 Jan 93 18:30:44 GMT
Followup-To: alt.pagan
Organization: Statistical & Data Analysis Center, Harvard University

This thread and my friend and fellow alt.pagan lurker Steve Boylan
prompted me to post this. I had hoped to do this a few days ago but stuff
like jury duty and medical appointments got in the way.  :) So here goes.

When my daughter was born, I wanted to have some sort of a
welcoming ceremony.  As my husband Paul is agnostic and I am pagan (leaning
towards animism) a christening was out.  My friend and fellow circle member
Susan Kell and I designed the following ritual which you are
welcome to copy and modify for your own use.  While it
is definitely pagan, we tried to be sensitive to the differing
religions/philosophies of the people we had invited to share
with us.

RITUAL TO WELCOME THE BABY OF SHIRLEY AND PAUL TRAITE

Welcome guests and introduce baby:

"We have invited you here today to share with us our joy in welcoming 
Rebecca to the circle of our family and friends.  She as born December
10, 1990, during the time of the year when one cycle ends and a 
new one begins.  We are thankful she has come safely through the first
of many passages, and now begins the circle of her life's journey."

Symbolize the five elements (points of the pentacle) and their 
significance: 
  
  Earth    stone or crystal or soil
  Air      bell
  Fire     lighted candle
  Water    filled vessel (of water)
  Spirit   White flowers, preferably buds

(Arrange the objects on a circular tray. Show each item to the baby as
each element is described.)

"Welcome to the Earth, which provides the food to nourish us and
serves as a firm foundation on which we build our lives."
"Welcome to the Air, which surrounds us and fills us and carriers the
sounds of our happiness."
"Welcome to Fire, which gives us warmth and light".
"Welcome to Water, from whjich all living things have grown."
"We welcome your Spirit which has so recently joined us, and we
joyfully accept you into our family."

An appropriate reading or song:
  (I read a Marge Piercy poem.)
 
Shirley and Paul share their hopes for Rebecca.
  
Guests are invited to hold  Rebecca and express their hopes for her.

The ritual ends by everyone present (except the infant of 
course :-) ),  sharing in mead and honey cake.


Blessings, and as always my Best.
___
Shirley Traite (traite@sdac.harvard.edu) |I only speak for myself.
Statistical Programmer                   |
SDAC/Biostatistics Dept.                 |
Harvard Sch. of Public Health            |

<> IT IS A VIRTUE TO HAVE AN OPEN AND INQUISITIVE MIND. <>


Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: storm@smaug.nas.nasa.gov (Steve Storm)
Subject: Re: Help with Songs...
Organization: NAS Program, NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 93 18:52:04 GMT

In article <1iibbrINNm5b@shelley.u.washington.edu>, mkkuhner@phylo.genetics.washington.edu (Mary K. Kuhner) writes:
|> In article <1ihft4INN324@bigboote.WPI.EDU> brenda@wpi.WPI.EDU (brenda) writes:
|> 
|> >Now, the question... are there any songs that all Pagans/Wiccans/Witches
|> >know?  at the end of the ritual, they all broke into song heartily, and me 
|> >and my friend were just standing there...  Are there any songs that are very
|> >popular that i could learn?
|> 
|> >brenda@wpi.wpi.edu    "One of the witnesses MUST not be telling us      
|> 
|> I don't have any way to teach you melodies, but here are the chants that
|> we jokingly call the Pagan Top Ten in Seattle:
|> 

stuff deleted

|> *
|> Isis, Astarte, Diana, Hecate,
|> Demeter, Kali, Inanna.
|> [There's also a Gods version but I don't know it.]
|> *

The one I have heard is...

Neptune, Osiris, Merlin Mananaan
Helios, Shiva, Horned One.

more stuff deleted

|> 
|> Mary Kuhner mkkuhner@genetics.washington.edu

Nice list Mary.  Sure makes me wish for musical notaion!!!

-storm

-- 
As we endure storms,    |  storm@smaug.nas.nasa.gov  | DISCLAIMER:
So we receive rainbows. |       (415) 604-4372       | Opinions, not policies!
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: aaldrich@encore.com (Al Aldrich)
Subject: Re: being a pagan can be fun...
Organization: Encore Computer Corporation
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 13:11:07 GMT

thorfinn@wixer.cactus.org (Thorfinn Einarsson) writes:

>>Iluinn Dreamdance #30 @9950 WWIVnet writes:
>>I tried to explain to him that I was a Pagan, not a Satanist...but he'd have

>I am very glad that the state did not take away the child, and I think that
>we pagans should try to help each other when dealing with non-pagans.
>But, I disagree with the statement, that Satanists and Pagans are mutually
	 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>exclusive. Good Luck!

What statement about exclusivity? Read the sentance again..it says 

" ... I was a Pagan, not a Satanist.." , 

It does not say pagans cannot be Satanists. However, I will make the statement
that MY definition of paganism does not include Satanists, since to me,
Satan is a Christian concept and has nothing to do with my beliefs.

Anyway, pagans, be careful out there.

al



-- 
Al Aldrich aaldrich@encore.com 305-797-2335
"Mythology: The body of a primitive people's beliefs concerning its
origin, early history, heroes, deities and so forth, as distinguished
from the true accounts which it invents later." -- Ambrose Bierce
Xref: sparky alt.pagan:14993 talk.religion.misc:25241
Newsgroups: alt.pagan,talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: The Christian Bible(s) -- Part I
From: drake+@cs.cmu.edu (Drake)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 01:49:22 GMT
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon

re: The five branches of Xianity

So far, very interesting.  Please, go on.  I am saving your comments to a text
file for later reference.

-- 
Love and Laughter,             | NOTE: Private mail must go explicitly
Xeper and Remanifest,          | to drake@seismo.soar.cs.cmu.edu
                       DRAKE   | or it'll bounce back to you...
Newsgroups: alt.pagan,talk.religion.misc
From: billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson)
Subject: Re: The meaning of "pagan"
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 01:15:28 GMT

drake+@cs.cmu.edu (Drake) writes:

... delided ...

: Aguable?  Yes.  Successfully arguable?  Not in your wildest dreams.  Unless,
: of course, you want to play with semantics and define Christian however it
: suits you.

Why not. It is just as valid, if not more so, than your insistance that
everyone interprets what they read the same way that you do. 

... delided ...

: Yes...however, neither you nor he will find justification with the pages of
: Holy Writ to support your contention.  The Christian Bible proclaims Jesus
: of Nazareth to be the one and only path to God, and, by extension, Christianity
: to be the one and only "true" religion.  Can you provide any Scripture - as
: oppossed to human interpreter's thoughts - to deny this?

Only if you read something into Scripture that is not there. Show me one place
that says that Christianity is the "only true" religion. Show me one place 
where it says that Jesus is the one and only path to salvation/enlightenment.

Bill
Newsgroups: alt.pagan,talk.religion.misc,sci.skeptic
From: billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson)
Subject: Re: Space, the final frontier
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 01:57:14 GMT

boylan@sltg04.ljo.dec.com (Steve Boylan) writes:
: 
: You suggested accelerating the mass within 1 second, an acceleration
: of 8,000 meters / second ** 2.  Let's see - that's only 816 g's.
: Your packaging and any payload would have to be built to take that
: kind of stress - every kilogram of mass becomes 816 kilograms of
: force trying to rip itself to pieces.  About the only thing you'd
: want to ship that way would be very high-value items where the
: value outweighs the cost of engineering them to take that kind
: of acceleration and bulk materials that wouldn't notice.  I sure
: wouldn't want to try to design a tank to hold liquid under those
: conditions.  Solid raw materials could be shipped that way, but 
: I thought the whole point was to get machinery and, possibly,
: people up there to OBTAIN the raw materials?

You couldn't ship any kind of material, in a container - using that
kind of acceleration. The container would have to be so massive that
there would not be any room for the cargo. You could shape and ship
uncontained solid materials only.

Bill
Newsgroups: alt.pagan,talk.religion.misc
From: drake+@cs.cmu.edu (Drake)
Subject: Re: The meaning of "pagan"
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 10:09:00 GMT

*DISCLAIMER* The opinions and thoughts which I present here on this thread
and in this post are not necessarily my own.  They are reactions, both past
and projected, by Christian fundamentalists to the arguments presented.  I
deliberately take this position to further understand the reasoning behind
it and educate myself on some aspects of apologetics.

billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson) writes:

>So? Does he state that you must believe in the "Father", or not have any
>religious beliefs at all?

Of course not; yet it is taught that those who do not have faith in God
through Jesus will not gain eternal life.  It's a simple law: if you
want eternal life, you need Christianity.  If you don't, well, that's
your choice.

>actuality? How do you know that your mind has been "blessed by the Holy
>Spirit"? Maybe you are just fooling yourself. 

I know this because God has promised this in his Holy Scriptures, and
God cannot lie.

>have been "blessed by the Holy Spirit". However, I believe that the tolerance
>I practice is much closer to the reputed teachings of Jesus than what you
>seem to practice.

We are not saved by what we do, but by our faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

(*Please read the disclaimer at the top of this post...please?*)


-- 
Love and Laughter,             | NOTE: Private mail must go explicitly
Xeper and Remanifest,          | to drake@seismo.soar.cs.cmu.edu
                       DRAKE   | or it'll bounce back to you...
Xref: sparky alt.pagan:14941 talk.religion.misc:25138