From: graham@maths.su.oz.au (Graham Matthews)
Subject: Re: Crusades? Again?? was Re: Why do I post here?
Organization: Sydney University Computing Service, Sydney, NSW, Australia
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1992 04:37:10 GMT

jbrown@doc.bmd.trw.com writes:
>    Opinion.  And not a very valid one at that.  Many hospitals have
>    been built by Christian denominations.  Many colleges and
>    universities have been started and supported by churches.
>    Even the American Red Cross was started by a Christian woman.
>    Christianity has made significant contributions to health and
>    education.	There are few other philosophies/religions which
>    have done as much charity work as Christianity in an organized
>    and systemized fashion.  Individuals of certain philosophies/
>    religions may feel led to charitable work, but it is often
>    an individual decision, and not a cooperatively organized
>    effort within the political structure of the philosophy/religion,
>    indeed, if it even has a coherent political structure.

Graham:
>When I read this I laughed myself silly. When someone brings up the
>Crusades jbrown says "that was real Christians doing all those horrible
>things". And now above "jbrown" says "look at all the good things
>done by christianity". Why is it jbrown that you are prepared to take
>the credit for the good things but not the shit for the bad things done
> in the name of christianity?
> 
> Typical!

jbrown@doc.bmd.trw.com writes:
>When I read this my first impulse was to blow off your comments as 
>those of an idiot.  But, then I thought there may be those out there 
>that would take you seriously.

I am quite sure there are.

jbrown@doc.bmd.trw.com writes:
>Before I comment, first a correction.  In your second sentence I'm sure
>you meant to quote me as saying "that [it] was NOT real Christians 
>doing all those horrible things". 

Indeed you are correct here.

jbrown@doc.bmd.trw.com writes:
>You quote does make sense in the context, nor
>did I ever hold that the Crusaders were anything but tragically 
>misguided.

In other words the responsibility for the actions of the crusaders does
not lie at the feet of Christianity but at the feet of each individual
crusader, right? Then why does the responsibility for the good things
done by christian lie at the feet of Christianity as a whole (as you
suggested in the original comment at the top of this article)? Why
the assymetry?

jbrown@doc.bmd.trw.com writes:
>I could ask you the same question. Why are you, Graham, willing to take
>credit for all the "good things" that atheists have done (if you can 
>mention one), but where are you when we speak of the 20 million people
>massacred by Stalin, which *more* than outweighs the suffering caused 
>in the Crusades?

I knew you were going to bring this up, but bad luck Jim, you lose!
I do not credit the good things done by individual atheists to 
"atheism". I credit it to the individual concerned. Likewise I 
credit the bad things done to the individual and not to "atheism".
Perfect symmetry - no double standards.  Bad luck - try again.

Moreover this is all a red herring - you do not answer my question,
rather you try to divert attention from the question with an
irrelevancy.

jbrown@doc.bmd.trw.com writes:
>This atheistic barbarian killed more people during his Reign of Terror
>than even Hitler could have hoped to accomplish.  Yet, you are 
>surprisingly silent when it comes to taking credit for the tyrannical 
>monster that your philosophy helped to spawn.

The position I outlined previously takes care of Stalin rather well
I would have said.

Again you are not answering the question, just dodging it.

jbrown@doc.bmd.trw.com writes:
>If I suddenly went berserk and started shooting people from atop a
>building "in the name of Buddha", would this make me a Buddhist?  

Irrelevant - that has nothing to do with the question I asked.

jbrown@doc.bmd.trw.com writes:
>No, for I would not be acting in accord with the teachings of that 
>faith.  It takes more to be a "Christian" than merely calling yourself
>one.  You must take the teachings of Jesus and the apostles to heart.

But the crusaders had taken those teachings to heart, or at least they
professed to taking them to heart. How do I know who to believe Jim,
you or them? 

jbrown@doc.bmd.trw.com writes:
>...

graham
--
Graham Matthews                 And it's true we are immune
Pure Math, Uni.Sydney, Oz       When fact is fiction and T.V. is reality
graham@maths.su.oz.au
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