From: harry@cv.hp.com (Harry Phinney)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles
Subject: Re: top five innovations
Date: 4 Sep 92 21:54:33 GMT
Article-I.D.: hpcvusn.1992Sep4.215433.21483
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4

tomk@netcom.com (Thomas H. Kunich) writes:
: I am reasonably sure that the original
: article I read discussed the person that did the research as a 
: physiologist of some sort. I seem to remember that he was a teacher
: or some such -- perhaps a university professor. I assumed that the 
: person's name on the article you were talking about was the same.

You shouldn't trust your memory, but then neither should I.  From the
February 1992 issue of Bicycle Guide, pages 76 and 77:

<From an article about Shinpei Okajima>
"Although he has been instrumental in the development of some of
Shimano's most important products over the years, he is not an engineer
or biomechanist by training.  He actually majored in marketing at Waseda
University, one of Japan's Ivy League universities."

I have seen no other names associated with the Biopace-related research.
The published graphs in Bike Tech were even drawn from data from
instrumentation of the author's riding.  If you know of other
researchers or authors I would appreciate a reference so I could read
the related article(s).

: I am sure that had I read that the 'research' was done by someone
: with a marketing degree I would have pretty much discounted any
: subsequent results without varification.

If this is the case, then you should start discounting.

: Most medical authorities would agree that peak joint torque is
: a pretty good indicator of stress on this rather difficult joint.
: Especially since most cycling injuries relate to this area.

First, I will again stress that there was insufficient data presented to
conclude that the joint torques were statistically different.  Now, to
which "rather difficult joint", and to exactly what medical authorities
do you refer?  Could you perhaps not simply trust your apparently
failing memory and provide some references this time?  Even making the
large assumption that the torques are indeed different, the torque alone
does not determine the forces in the tendons and muscles.  You must also
account for the joint angles at which the torques occur.

In any case, none of this has any relation to the rider's efficiency,
which was what the introductory notes to the research claimed they
were investigating.  To measure the rider's efficiency one needs only
to measure their VO2 at a given work load.  If they consume less O2,
then it's made an improvement.  I would bet large sums of money that
there is no efficiency to be gained from Biopace or other non-round
chainrings.

: Biopace was of no harm
: to the market that it was directed to. It was a distinguishing feature
: for Shimano and because _you_ don't agree with them (nor I for that
: matter) doesn't make their product bAd for the market

First, I have never claimed that Shimano is "a 'bad' company".  What I
do believe is that Shimano marketed Biopace in a misleading manner
citing research which did nothing to prove their claims for it.  Let's
say I manufacture a car which gets about 40 mpg, just like my
competitor's.  Is it OK to claim that it'll get 60 mpg, and when buyers
express skepticism, say "I've got research to back it up", but in
reality the research is bogus and proves no such thing?  Doesn't this
unfairly harm the sales of more honest manufacturers who refrain from
making bogus claims regarding their products?

: I have always fround Shimano brake pads better designed for their
: use than after market pieces.

My experience has been different.  In particular, Shimano Deore XT brake
pads wear to the point of uselessness after 1 or at most 2 long rides in
the rain.

: >They produced and sold (i.e. took people's money for) at least two
: >earlier "indexed" shifting systems which were abysmal.  I wonder if
: >you can still get parts for the old push-pull Positron shifters.
: 
: I wonder if you can still get parts for the first auto air conditioners?

If the air conditioner actually blew cool air when new then it was a
bargain compared to Positron.  In any case, I know you can't get
Positron parts anymore, because you couldn't get Positron replacement
parts when the things were brand new.

: >Do you think Campy and
: >Sugino crank arms were machined from billet?  Or perhaps cast?  Or grown
: >as single crystals?
: 
: Campi? Campagnolo never was nor meant to be a mass marketed group. It
: was suppose to be for the most discriminating customer only. There is
: a _large_ diffeence between a mass marketed item and a limited production
: item.

Did you miss the additional name "Sugino" that I listed?  I thought that
might clue you in that other manufacturers used the same technique, but
I guess not.  TA, Stronglight, Nervar, SR, Dia-Compe, Suntour, and
others have all used cold forging on their products.  There is nothing
all that special about the process.  Shimano's boasting about it is
similar to Honda trademarking the phrase "Pent-Roof Combustion Chamber".
Never mind that other manufacturers had produced similar engines for
decades, Honda now "owns" the name and it sounds impressive to the
unknowledgeable consumer.

: This is so far out of date I don't know what to say about it. today
: you have a far better chance of twisting your HG chain and
: destroying from cranking it through the rings sideways than to
: have it break. Yes, they did break -- two years ago before changes
: in the design of the chain were made.

So those postings I see every week here regarding broken HG chains must
have been back logged for the last two years on somebody's mail hub.  I
never would have suspected it.  I'll have to let one of my friends know
this.  He broke one last summer while leading a mountain bike race.  He
went over the bars, and as you might guess, did not finish let alone win
the race.  He switched to Sedisport ATB chains after that incident, and
has had no further problems.

: And everyone I talked to
: prefered the occassional broken chain in order to receive the
: much better shifting.

Here's someone you've "talked" with who doesn't see it that way.  I'll
gladly give up some shifting performance in exchange for chains which
don't break.  A broken chain can cause a serious accident (see above).
I have literally seen people end up in the hospital because of a broken
chain.

Harry Phinney   harry@hp-pcd.cv.hp.com
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles