HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes)
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Reply-To: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov
Organization: Jet Propulsion Lab - Pasadena, CA
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 23:56:54 GMT

jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard) writes:

>In article <1dbpgnINNaeg@agate.berkeley.edu> shirriff@sprite.berkeley.edu (Ken Shirriff) writes:
>>Perhaps the CFV subject line should make it clear to whom the CFV is relevant?
>CFVs are only posted to news.groups, news.announce.newgroups, and those groups
>affected by the vote. How could it be made clearer? "CFV! This means *YOU*!"?

Not good enough. "CFV: rec.music.makers.* and rec.music.synth rename" would
have been much clearer. This way, most people in rec.music.synth would
skip over something apparently not relavent. 
-- 
Dave Hayes - Network & Communications Engineering - JPL / NASA - Pasadena CA
dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov       dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov         ...usc!elroy!dxh

Bribe (n.) - 1. Substitute for law.
Law   (n.) - 1. Substitute for justice.
Xref: sparky news.groups:20256 rec.music.synth:17692
From: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes)
Newsgroups: news.groups,rec.music.synth
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Date: 5 Nov 92 03:03:17 GMT
Reply-To: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov
Organization: Jet Propulsion Lab - Pasadena, CA

lazlo@triton.unm.edu (Lazlo Nibble) writes:
>Changing the name of the group doesn't affect people on any gatewayed mailing
>lists as long as the people responsible for the gateways update the group name
>promptly.

That's an interesting assumption. Are you sure?

>So where were these hordes of r.m.synth posters who oppose the change?

Apparently most of them were not aware of the vote until it was too late.
Most people don't hang out in news.groups...and that raises another issue.
WHY is it that only those in news.groups concerned enough to vote can
be able to affect those who try to stay away from news.groups? That fact
is actually the main reason that I pay attention to it. No telling WHAT
you guys are going to do to a group given whim and vigor. 

I assert that it is unfair to change the name of a newsgroup without the
consent of a plurality of the participants. If it takes me to make enough
noise and bother to get this across to where it's "written somewhere", then
so be it. You and many others must be aware that this is one of the number
one complaints about newsgroup reorgs.

>It's not like this vote was conducted in secret.

That's not the point anymore. 

>What makes you think that rec.music.makers.synth is going to be any
>different?

Because God knows *where* that newsgroup was gatewayed! There may be a loss
of many participants just because somebody decided on an arbitrary name change.

>If you can come up with evidence of that, you've got a case -- the vote
>was very close.  

Define "evidence". 

>And of course, you're free to carry or not carry whatever
>groups you like. 

Granted, as always. 

>But aside from any uncounted "no" votes, none of the
>issues you raise are sufficient to invalidate the vote results for the
>entire net. 

How would you like your favorite group to be renamed without the consent
of anybody in your news group?
-- 
Dave Hayes - Network & Communications Engineering - JPL / NASA - Pasadena CA
dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov       dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov         ...usc!elroy!dxh

The penalty for laughing in a courtroom is six months in jail; if it were not 
for this penalty, the jury would never hear the evidence.
From: stanley@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU (John Stanley)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Date: 6 Nov 92 22:48:22 GMT
Article-I.D.: news.BxBGor.5D7
Organization: Oregon State University, College of Oceanography

In article <1992Nov6.204122.10543@tc.cornell.edu> riley@theory.TC.Cornell.EDU (Daniel S. Riley) writes:
>As a not-entirely-bogus analogy, suppose for a second that your local
>election board sent out registration verification cards, but only
>listed the polling locations on cards sent to republicans, not
>democrats, independents, or anything else.  

Are you claiming that the CFV was not posted in r.m.s? Or are you
claiming that the CFV posted to r.m.s did not contain instructions on
how to vote (i.e. "the polling locations")?
Newsgroups: news.groups,comp.mail.misc
From: atkinson@itd.nrl.navy.mil (Randall Atkinson)
Subject: Re: CFV: comp.mail.mime
Followup-To: news.groups
Organization: Naval Research Laboratory, DC
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 13:07:01 GMT

In article <9211101751.AA24390@rodan.UU.NET> someone writes:
>
>This is a Call For Votes on creation of the unmoderated newsgroup
>comp.mail.mime.  The charter of this newsgroup would be discussions
>about MIME in general, and MIME implementations in particular.
>
>To vote for creation of this group, send mail to
>mime-yes+@andrew.cmu.edu.  To vote against creation of the group, send
>mail to mime-no+@andrew.cmu.edu. 

  This is a good solid proposal.  The name is right.  The existing
mailing list and the existing distributed postings demonstrate
existing need for the newsgroup and the proposer has followed all of
the guidelines.

  I strongly encourage everyone to vote yes.

Ran
atkinson@itd.nrl.navy.mil
From: jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Date: 7 Nov 1992 05:29:04 GMT
Organization: UT Health Science Center Houston

In article <1992Nov6.185955.22857@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov writes:
>Now who's blowing things out of proportion? Look, until you can prove
>that this is the expressed will of a majority of the net then might 
>I suggest you stop trying to make this a net.criminal matter? 

It is as close as we'll ever get to the expressed will of the net. That's the
way it works, on the net as in real life. I'm not making it a criminal matter;
you are, by breaking the group.
-- 
Jay Maynard, EMT-P, K5ZC, PP-ASEL | Never ascribe to malice that which can
jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu      | adequately be explained by stupidity.
     We survived Jimmy Carter; we'll (probably) survive Bill Clinton.
Newsgroups: news.groups,rec.music.synth
From: dkl@xcluud.sccsi.com (David Leikam)
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Organization: Greater Montrose UFO Appreciation Society & Data Haven
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 16:15:22 GMT

In article <1dbpgnINNaeg@agate.berkeley.edu> shirriff@sprite.berkeley.edu (Ken Shirriff) writes:
>Well, I for one am a r.m.synth poster who was not aware of the vote until I
>saw the current discussion.  I went back and checked and there were indeed
>calls for votes in rec.music.synth with the subject: "3rd CFV and VOTE ACK:
>rec.music.makers.* groups".  Since I don't read rec.music.makers or care what
>happens there, I skipped over that posting and didn't learn about the vote.

   As a pretty general rule, relying on an article's title to be a clear
or complete summary of the subject thereof, seems like a bad idea. Not so?

   It seems like a *good* idea to assume until proven otherwise, that a
RFD or CFV crossposted to a particular group, probably AFFECTS that group
in some material way, which is why it was crossposted there.

  
>Perhaps the CFV subject line should make it clear to whom the CFV is relevant?
>
   In a perfect world, no doubt it would. Until then, if it's IN a group,
assume it affects that group until you know for sure that it doesn't.

-- 
dkl@xcluud.sccsi.com | My company doesn't know Usenet exists, and my boss
and other places,    | would have kittens if he thought I spoke for them.
even more unsavory.  | My opinions are better than theirs anyway.
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: drew@snow.geology.wisc.edu (Drew Novick)
Subject: Re: rec.games.frp.campaign
Followup-To: news.groups
Keywords: Summation, Opposing
Organization: Dept. of Geology & Geophysics, University of Wisconsin - Madison
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 92 22:34:18 GMT

	This is an attempted summation of the points opposing the creation
of rec.games.frp.campaign.  I claim no authority or guidance in making such
a summation, I'm just trying to clarify these arguments and put them in one
place. (And I'm trying to flameproof myself with the above disclaimer :-)

1) r.g.f.campaign is redundant

The FAQ, Campaign Moves, and GM Statistical Posts could all be handled
under the existing charter or rec.games.frp.archives which is a low volume
newsgroup.  This leaves the discussions of ongoing campaigns and campaigns
in general to the appropriate newsgroup, presumably rgf.misc or rgf.dnd. 

2) r.g.f.campaign is moderated

As r.g.f.campaign is supposed to include discussion of ongoing campaigns
and campaigns in general (presumably this is a freewheeling discussion)
this section should not be moderated.  Of special note is the lag time of
posts in moderated newsgroups.  

3) r.g.f.campaign is counter to the spirit of the (fairly) recent rgf split

Specifically, r.g.f.campaign would (could) take part of .archives plus campaign
discussions and put them in a separate newsgroup.  This point of combining
"fluff" (the stuff currently in or what could go in .archives) and "general
interest" discussions in one newgroup was rejected then.  

4) r.g.f.campaign is expensive

As we are all aware, posting to the Net is far more expensive (though the
costs may be hidden or indirect) than using E-mail.  A mailing list has
been recommended as a possible alternative to a new newsgroup.

Elaborations, exhortations, and exclamations are all encouraged as are
plain old additions and comments.

Drew Novick (drew@ice.geology.wisc.edu)
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen)
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Reply-To: gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen)
Organization: Metrosoft
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 18:49:23 GMT

In article <96764@netnews.upenn.edu> rsk@gynko.circ.upenn.edu (Rich  
Kulawiec) writes:
> I should probably point out, in
> all fairness, that people who tend to support the change would probably
> tend to send mail to me, and people who tend to oppose the change would
> probably send mail to you. 

Do you have evidence to support this claim? Sometimes it goes in exactly  
the opposite direction. Ever heard of hate mail?

-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------
Gordon Van Huizen           vox: 619.488.9411  fax: 619.488.3045
Metrosoft                   gvh@metrosoft.com [NeXTmail welcome]
----------------------------------------------------------------
From: rick@crick.ssctr.bcm.tmc.edu (Richard H. Miller)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: CFV: soc.religion.islam.ahmadiyya moderated
Date: 9 Nov 1992 23:27:51 GMT
Organization: Baylor College of Medicine, Houston, Tx
NNTP-Posting-Host: crick.ssctr.bcm.tmc.edu

Was this CFV posted to news.announce.newgroups? If it was, it should not
have been posted here also since the moderator will take care of the cross-
posting. If it wasn't then this is an INVALID CFV and should be ignored.

As a rule, do not post CFV's but allow them to be posted by the moderator,
this makes sure all appear at the same time and does avoid some of the
wars over timing that have occurred. Remember also thet news.announce.newgroups
is a moderated group and posting will not occur immediately.




-- 
Richard H. Miller                 Email: rick@bcm.tmc.edu
Asst. Dir. for Technical Support  Voice: (713)798-3532
Baylor College of Medicine        US Mail: One Baylor Plaza, 302H
                                           Houston, Texas 77030
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: rorschak@daimi.aau.dk (Jesper Lauridsen)
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Organization: Xanth Watch
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 92 21:29:40 GMT

gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen) writes:

>In article <BxE3sC.M0z@unix.amherst.edu> twpierce@unix.amherst.edu (Tim  
>Pierce) writes:
>> In article <1992Nov6.214300.3100@metrosoft.com> gvh@metrosoft.com  
>(Gordon Van Huizen) writes:
>> 
>> >In article <BxACry.BI2@unix.amherst.edu> twpierce@unix.amherst.edu (Tim  
>> >Pierce) writes:
>> >
>> >> The very fact that the CFV was crossposted to rec.music.synth was by
>> >> definition an indication that that group was involved.
>> >> 
>> >Evidence to the contrary has been posted.
>> 
>> Oh, *really*?  I eagerly await to hear all about it.
>> 

>If you're actively following this thread I'm certain you must have already  
>read it. Or did you happen to miss it? Naw THAT cou'dn't happen, we've  
>already read how you don't miss a thing.

The headers of the RFDs and CFVs have been posted several times. It's 
obvoius from those that they were crossposted to rec.music.synth. What
is your "evidence to the contrary"? 
-- 
Jesper Lauridsen        |  I survived the rec.arts.sf-lovers split
rorschak@daimi.aau.dk   | 
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: youngm@mica.Colorado.EDU (Matthew Young)
Subject: Re: RFD: comp.ai.genetic
Originator: youngm@mica
Reply-To: youngm@mica.Colorado.EDU (Matthew Young)
Organization: Center for Study of Earth from Space, U of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 05:42:33 GMT


I've been looking for a ga group for some time now.
Let's give it a shot!

mY
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: mhmann@nyx.cs.du.edu (Me Mann)
Subject: Re: RFD: soc.culture.singaporean
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 92 00:20:14 GMT

In article <1992Nov10.153608.2721@news.eng.convex.com> akoh@convex.com (Allan Koh) writes:

>    I also want to know if the Singapore International Foundation would be
>able to have access to this proposed newsgroup.  My interest here is because

Certainly, SIF has an account on TECHNET.  They also recently started
diseminating SIngapore news on the gopher server of TECHNET. Since
you are posting here, I presume you can access or have access to a gopher
client.  Current they are updating news twice a week.

By the way their email address is siflash@solomon.technet.sg

Newsgroups: news.groups,news.admin.policy,rec.music.synth
From: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes)
Subject: Re: Music Group Reorg Disagreement (was Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored)
Reply-To: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov
Organization: Jet Propulsion Lab - Pasadena, CA
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 20:48:18 GMT

stanley@skyking.OCE.ORST.EDU (John Stanley) writes:
>If we did decide to throw the guidelines out for this vote, I can
>guarantee that the debates on whether the guidelines should be thrown
>out for subsequent votes would dwarf this discussion. 

This is a straw man. There is debate going on right now. You are not
going to minimize debate by adhering to a set of incomplete standards.
You also cannot prove that there will be larger debate later. 

>second vote. But only if you start the process for that vote RIGHT NOW.

I have, but it's not worded like you want.

>>"The Call For Votes subject line should be clear to even the first
>>time usenet reader. Otherwise people may not pay attention to it."
>If the first time USENET reader sees the acronym CFV and decides without
>investigation that it is something that he is not interested in, that is
>his decision.

This is another straw man. The first time usenet reader is probably overwhelmed
with unknowns that may or may not need investigation. What's wrong with making
it clearer...don't you want people to participate? Or are you advocating
the class system again?


-- 
Dave Hayes - Network & Communications Engineering - JPL / NASA - Pasadena CA
dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov       dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov         ...usc!elroy!dxh

With a jar on his back, a blind man walked at night, holding a lamp. A
passer-by said: "What ignorance. Day and night is the same for you and
you're carrying a lamp in the dark!"
  
"The light is for blind people like you so that they won't knock against
From: bx306@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Eugene F. Gross)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: pakistan
Date: 11 Nov 1992 01:10:35 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


Is there a group dedicated to pakistani culture?
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen)
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Reply-To: gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen)
Organization: Metrosoft
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1992 23:15:40 GMT

In article <1992Nov8.160325.26727@daimi.aau.dk> rorschak@daimi.aau.dk  
(Jesper Lauridsen) writes:
> gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen) writes:
> 
> >In article <BxACry.BI2@unix.amherst.edu> twpierce@unix.amherst.edu (Tim  
> >Pierce) writes:
> >> The very fact that the CFV was crossposted to rec.music.synth was by
> >> definition an indication that that group was involved.
> >> 
> >Evidence to the contrary has been posted.
> 
> Has it? I haven't seen any such thing - could you back that statement
> with some more facts or are you just using the standard flamewar method
> of avoiding to deal with the arguments of your opponents.
> 

Yes I can:

> jhildeb1@cc.swarthmore.edu (Jeff Hildebrand) writes:
>
> For example the CFV for rec.arts.sf.starwars was
> crossposted to rec.arts.sf.misc and maybe even sf.tv.
> Nothing happened to those groups but the crosspost was
> made to get people's attention. So if the CFV said nothing
> about the renaming in the subject line I don't think it's
> unreasonable for people to think that it was there only to
> attract some more people who might be interested. 
> 

That was posted on 6 Nov 92. Funny how two people that have been reading  
this thread such a message hadn't been posted and that I was making it up,  
when the message was clearly in the thread. Isn't that hard to miss  
something is it?

Thanks for the 'flamewar' comment. Looks like I'm not the one who is  
attempting to sidestep the real argument.

> >What an amazingly condescending attitude. All we're saying is that the  
> >person that posted the RFD's and CFV's should have taken the time to  
write  
> >a subject line that indicated that r.m.s was affected.
> 
> Several groups were involved, subject lines are finite, long subjects  
lines
> are unreadable.

So therefore people aren't entitled to some form of clear notification?  
Those are problems that can be solved. Why are you so resistant to clear  
notification?

-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------
Gordon Van Huizen           vox: 619.488.9411  fax: 619.488.3045
Metrosoft                   gvh@metrosoft.com [NeXTmail welcome]
----------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: twpierce@unix.amherst.edu (Tim Pierce)
Subject: Re: rec.music.makers.*: chronology and comments from the vote-taker.
Organization: Homosexual Fascist Lobby, Rampant Paranoia Division
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 03:26:49 GMT

In article <9288@vtserf.cc.vt.edu> pgr@ramandu.ext.vt.edu (Patrick Robinson) writes:

>Consider me better informed now.  In the future, I will Raise A Big Stink
>when I see this kind of thing.

Better Raise it in Your Own Newsgroup, where apparently it will do the
most good.

-- 
____ Tim Pierce                / 
\  / twpierce@unix.amherst.edu / I use antlers in all of my decorating.
 \/ (BITnet: TWPIERCE@AMHERST) / 
Newsgroups: news.groups,rec.music.synth,news.admin
From: igb@fulcrum.co.uk (Ian G Batten)
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Organization: Fulcrum Communications
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 10:00:49 GMT

In article <1992Nov9.120830.28935@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov writes:
> that echos r.m.s as well (and news.announce.newgroups). This is how I 
> know about people's behavior...almost NOBODY reads n.a.n even though I
> post several places "READ THE USENET DOCUMENTATION" which contains 
> copies of all the standard usenet docs (including the guidelines). 
> So much for ignorance. 

Quite so.  People are told to read the instructions, didn't, and now are
complaining that they didn't know what was in them?  Do you get out
much?  I suppose that when you stick your fingers in the mains, ignoring
the sign saying ``do not stick your fingers in the mains'', you expect
me to be sympathetic?

Don't anyone dare tell me that the UK has lost its sense of personal
responsibility, unlike the US, ever again.  This abdication of any
belief in taking control of your own life is breathtaking.

> at home changing their rigs or reconfiguring for the next tour. They don't
> really care about newgroup wars or CFV's...but they do care about synths
> and midi equipment. 

So why would they care what the name is?  BBS gateways will continue to
work.  If they don't, the people who run them aren't running them very
well.  I'm sure your BBS is run properly.

> That's the main reason I run a waffle BBS on DOS (ugh)...so that some
> of the industry people I know can contribute and benefit. 

So tell them it changed.  Mathew posted how.  What's your problem? 

ian
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: riley@theory.TC.Cornell.EDU (Daniel S. Riley)
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Organization: Cornell Theory Center
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 23:55:35 GMT

In article <BxBGor.5D7@news.orst.edu> stanley@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU (John Stanley) writes:
>In article <1992Nov6.204122.10543@tc.cornell.edu> riley@theory.TC.Cornell.EDU (Daniel S. Riley) writes:
>>As a not-entirely-bogus analogy, suppose for a second that your local
>>election board sent out registration verification cards, but only
>>listed the polling locations on cards sent to republicans, not
>>democrats, independents, or anything else.  
>
>Are you claiming that the CFV was not posted in r.m.s? Or are you
>claiming that the CFV posted to r.m.s did not contain instructions on
>how to vote (i.e. "the polling locations")?

Neither.  As the rest of my post was supposed to explain, I'm claiming
that the way the vote was conducted skewed the composition of the
voting population, by making it more likely that readers of
rec.music.makers would vote than would readers of rec.music.synth.

I never did claim that it was a perfect analogy, just not-entirely-bogus,
so don't take it quite so literally.

While I'm clarifying, I'm not claiming that the vote was not conducted
according the rules, or that the vote was intentionally flawed, and I'm
not calling for a revote.  What I am calling for is a modification of
the rules that ensures that the scope of votes is more clearly indicated
on the subject line of CFVs, so this doesn't happen *next* time.

-- 
-Dan Riley                          Internet: dsr@lns598.tn.cornell.edu
-Wilson Lab, Cornell University     HEPNET/SPAN: lns598::dsr (44630::dsr)
From: igb@fulcrum.co.uk (Ian G Batten)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored20663
Date: 9 Nov 92 13:38:06 GMT
Organization: Fulcrum Communications

In article <1deivsINNq87@agate.berkeley.edu> shirriff@sprite.berkeley.edu (Ken Shirriff) writes:
> it seems like Usenet would then be forced to become a subgroup of c.p.tcp-ip,
> and nobody could do anything about it.  Is this true?

No.  The Backbone cabal would never allow it.

ian
Xref: sparky news.groups:20334 rec.music.synth:17770
From: jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard)
Newsgroups: news.groups,rec.music.synth
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Date: 5 Nov 1992 22:34:41 GMT
Followup-To: news.groups
Organization: UT Health Science Center Houston

In article <1992Nov5.213929.880@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov writes:
[on my offer to help fix broken gateways]
>Can I quote you on that? <grin>

Yes, you may. I was serious when I made the offer.

>Then so be it. I am willing to change, however. You aren't. Why?

Because I am not the one trying to sabotage the expressed will of the net.
-- 
Jay Maynard, EMT-P, K5ZC, PP-ASEL | Never ascribe to malice that which can
jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu      | adequately be explained by stupidity.
     We survived Jimmy Carter; we'll (probably) survive Bill Clinton.
Xref: sparky news.groups:20313 rec.music.synth:17748