From: avg@rodan.UU.NET (Vadim Antonov)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
Subject: Re: death and feminism
Date: 13 Oct 1992 16:12:15 -0400
Organization: Berkeley Software Design
NNTP-Posting-Host: rodan.uu.net

Patricia, are you serious? I can't believe a person can
look at white and still be one hundred percent sure
it's black. Or is it my faulty sence of humor which does not
work if there is no smiley appended?

In article <84600011@glas.apc.org> Patricia Schwartz <margaret@glas.apc.org> writes:
>I have noticed in my various communications with Russian
>friends over the last few years that they seem rather puzzled
>by American feminism, especially what look like totalitarian
>aspects and extremism and an "anti-sex" attitude.

Yep. You can put it this way. "Puzzled" is a good word.
"Anti-sex" - what do you mean by that? (sorry for citation
from J.C.Superstar :-)

>I think I understand the root of these attitudes and also why
>they haven't been present in Russian culture, and probably won't
>arise even when post-Marxist "feminism" (in some form) 
>becomes popular in Russia

So far, Russia got hit by "feminism" much harder than other
countries because women were hysterically treated as equals
(in its exact sense -- indistinguishable) to men. Not they
were granted formal rights to become professionals (and in
fact, female students were and are majority in universities)
but they were nearly required to have job. They were also
granted rights to do hard physical labour or to share the same
conditions as men in prisons.

>(as it soon will, because the economic crisis is hitting women 
>harder than men, as usual in most societies

The Soviet history is the history of a permanent crisis if haven't
figured it out yet.

>because women
>almost always get custody of children after divorce, and hence
>in a society with any significant divorce rate, women need
>more money but actually earn less due to discrimination.

First of all, isn't the "mandatory" custody of children by
mother is an achievement of feminism? As for significant
divorce rate -- it's well known that divorce rate gets lower
when economic conditions get worse -- it's a matter of survival.

As for discrimination -- in the old Soviet era women earned
exactly the same money as men -- the salary didn't even depend
on performance, leave alone sex. The new capitalism changes
this quickly, though.

I *am* proud that my wife never had to work for money, though
she likes to do some work to feel involved.

>So in times
>of economic distress, divorced or single women with children
>really get hit much harder than men, and also come to realize this
>very quickly.)

Yes, that's why divorces are taken much more seriously in
Russia (and marriages as well). It is quite irresponsible to
have children having no means to feed them first. It even more
surprising in the West where contraceptives are easily available.

>Anyways, I want to point out a certain deep aspect of Western
>literature and culture that I have not yet observed in Russian
>culture. This is the Culture of the Dead Woman.

>The central idea to this is that any woman who enjoys sex
>with a man must die in shame. 

You just discovered America. It's one of central ideas of
early Christianity, isn't it? Take a look of your native
American religious morons with their so-called "family values"
and "pro-life" extremism and try to understand that there
weren't such movements in Russia for at least a hundred of
years. The Christian religion (together with this crap)
is essentially dead in Russia. The Christianity as it is
understood in Russia now is a different thing -- first of all
it is not from Church, it's from soul. The words are
salvation and responsibility; and the new Russian Christianity 
is supported and conducted by women. No papal morons, mind you.

>Some major works of this genre are: La Dame aux Camilles by Dumas,
>Madame Bovary by Flaubert, Faust by Goethe, the ballet Giselle,
>I could go on and on......the list is quite stupefying.

Well, what everything you just listed has to do with (a) Russia
and (b) The Culture of Dead Woman?

>In all of these works, some woman discovers her inner sensuality,
>tries to act on it and maybe even become independent in her choice
>of lover, and then dies a pitiful death of mental illness or
>consumption or outright suicide. In Faust, Gretchen's punishment
>for having a sexuality is to die of shame in a prison dungeon.

Oops. Can you even tell the difference between sex and sin?
 
>And what about modern American culture? How many famous police thrillers
>begin with the body of a dead woman?

Ah, on few occasions when i happened to watch that kind of crap
it always has some stupid females butchered for nosing in
obviously inappropriate places.

>And look at this new movie
>with Clint Eastwood, "The Unforgiven." The entire premise for
>the plot is the mutilation of prostitutes, good women who were trying
>to survive in the rough world of frontier America and provide a
>very necessary feminine influence in places that were often too
>unsettled for most women to inhabit.

Ever read Tolstoy or Dostoevskiy? It was chewed beyond any
recognition hundred of years ago.

>The message in Western European and American culture in particular
>is: women who have sex or want to have sex MUST DIE. Then of
>course the male hero of the story reaches some state of grace
>in grieving for the dead woman.

Well, if you call *that* the culture we obviously have the
differnt views. The two-line plots of Hollywood movies have nothing
to do with culture, IMHO. It's a matter of "mass-culture" which
in ol' good days was simply called crap for plebs.

>One might ask, "Why should people be so affected by mere works
>of literature?" I can't answer, but there is very horrifying proof
>in the works of serial killers like Ted Bundy and the Green River
>killer, who mutilate the genitals of their female victims as if they
>are destroying some source of evil. The proof is not that they
>did it after reading "Madame Bovary" or Faust, but that the
>same cultural ideal that sent Emma Bovary to suicide seems to
>drive some men to brutalize sexual women.

Nope. It's madames with aspirations and diplomas who drove them
crazy. Again, can't you see the difference between "mentally
impaired" (or simply mad if use plain English instead of the
politically correct newspeak) and relatioships of normal people.
Given *any* general idea you'll find a madman who'll kill for
it. Feminism is not an exception (for a literary example read
"The Life According To Harp").

>I see as yet no parallels to the death-wish for sexual women in Russian
>culture.
>Tolstoy wrote "Anna Karenina," which is certainly close
>to this genre...

The Russian culture always had a notion of "honor", which drove
men to do suicidal things like duels or participating in
military actions. Call it the death-wish. Or you'd rather
deprive women of the right to be honorable?

>How fantastically revolutionary this was
>for an American girl to read - a woman who fucks and doesn't die.

Ever tried to fuck? It's certanly not lethal. Normal people
do it for a *very* long time and most of them survived the
experience. Though, educated stress-prone over-sensitive
American girls may die immediately because of the inner
death-wish implanted by wathcing cheapo thrillers.

>Is it obvious now why in American feminism there is the common
>attitude that sex with men is equivalent to slavery?
>This is part of why we are so obsessed with sexual matters in the
>struggle for economic equality.

It is obvious that the very idea of feminism was FUBAR by
American feminists who are obsessed with sexual matters.

>Not just job discrimination,
>but everything to do with sex. Even mere sexual language or
>imagery can be upsetting for some feminists, whether it results
>in real discrimination or not. Still, somehow it threatens us with
>the Dead Woman Culture.

You're like a band of paranoics who locked themselves in a dark
place and terrorize themselves with imagined horrors. Take
a life and go date a normal guy. Or you simply can't? I understand
why American kind of feminism is so popular between fat ugly
old virgins who forgo working out and caring about own attractivity
preferring to sit home and watch Hollywood's crap. Yep,
it is the Culture of Essentially Dead Women who forgot that they
need to compete for decent mates and prefer to enjoy decaying
alive.

>And this is why even conservative American women many times 
>develop strong friendships with homosexual men.

I see notihng wrong with it.

>It was well-known in
>Washington and New York that despite the official Reagan policy of 
>supporting anti-homosexual laws, Nancy Reagan's very best friend was
>a very openly gay man. They can be our friends without
>killing us!

I bet, if i'd be forced to choose between living with you or
killing you i'd feel like the second.

>If you get too close to a straight man, then you'll
>wind up expressing your natural sexuality and die like Emma Bovary
>or Margarethe or Gretchen or Giselle or Allie Mc Graw in "Love
>Story" or any woman who has sex in a slasher movie or sleeps
>with the policeman or the cowboy or the hero...

Alternatively you can get all that bullshit out of your head
and enjoy the act.
 
>The most astonishing piece of literature I have evr read is
>"Master and Margaret." THIS WOMAN FLIES NAKED OVER MOSCOW AND
>IS NOT ASHAMED. SHE COMMITS ADULTERY AND DOES NOT DIE A GRUESOME
>DEATH. SHE HAS RESPECT AND LOVE AND SPIRITUAL POWER. 

What's so surprising? Haven't you missed the entire book looking
for sexuality? 

>And SHE saves the man in her life.

And Ariadna (sp?) is a beloved heroine of my SO. Don't you think
is *IS* the reason why ex-Soviet immigrants generally find the
American girls boring and untruthworthy. Russian "family values"
always were about mutual responsibility, not about checkbook.

>This book was the Epiphany of my literary life. It made me realize how
>I had been Puritanized by this Western Cult of the Dead Woman.
>I am eternally amazed that it was written by a man, because it
>would be almost radical feminism in the West. 

Are you joking? Poor Bulgakov is turning in his coffin. He wrote
book about LOVE, not about feminism. Too bad it comes as surprise
to you. His perception of man-woman relatioships is natural and
quite typical for a Russian man. I never thought it can be SO
novel to somebody.

>Of course, don't say that to many American feminists, because after all,
>Margarita spends a large fraction of her time in the book naked
>or almost naked. In some sectors of feminism, this is by definition
>sexist and degrading and bad.

What's wrong in a beautiful women showing her body? Oh, i guess
most American feminists feel quite ashamed to show their fat.
Yes, i'm intentionally acid; it's just to outline the idea.

>Of course, one root of this judgment
>lies in this Dead Woman ideal itself. Sometimes we imitate those
>against whom we rebel!

C'mon. The answer is much simplier, does not require capital
letters or loud phrases and quite cynical. See before.
 
>I hope I helped foster some understanding here about how this
>"Dead Woman" culture influences the direction of American feminism.

You'd better go check with a psychiatrist. It may help. Spending
more time on the open air and eating food which is *not* marked
"low-fat", "sodium-free" and "low-cholesterol" can help as well.

>It seems to be very different from the Russian image of female
>sexuality.

There is no such thing as "female" sexuality. There is no such
thing as "north" magnet. Sex and magnetism always come with
two opposite sides; things are yan and tsi and empowered with mu.

>margaret, unashamed

Of what?

--vadim
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet,talk.politics.soviet