From: watson@sce.carleton.ca (Stephen Watson)
Subject: Re: Eowyn 
Organization: Carleton University
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 16:35:48 GMT

jchokey@leland.Stanford.EDU (James Alexander Chokey) writes:

[MUCH deleted] 

Good Grief! Are we REALLY complaining about the fact that a man of
Tolkien's generation WASN'T a modern feminist?  For most of history,
and a lot of mythology, the sex roles have been pretty much divided as
Jim says.  Probably there was once a good reason for this (greater male
physical strength for e.g.), and probably the dichotomy outlived its
usefulness, but so what?  It's just a bloody STORY for crying out
loud!  For what purpose are we endlessly analyzing this great work of
literature on these themes?  Yes, the subtle racism is there, the
sexism is there, we've seen it, we know about it, we admit it, and
when we give LOTR to our children we should discuss that with them.
And to my mind, that is the END of the PROBLEM.  It's not even
interesting any more.  Or do we have to start cross-posting this
thread to alt.feminism?

>	But in the end, she changes her mind.  She renounces her desires to
>go out to battle, to travel, and to do all of the things that female 
>characters just don't do in LOTR.  Instead, she decides that she'd be
>quite content simply to do what all the other women in Middle-earth do--
>get married, stay at home, and take care of domestic affairs.  By having
>Eowyn, the only character who mounts a challenge to the ideology of female
>domesticity in LOTR, renounce that challenge and happily accept the status
>of a married stay-at-home, Tolkien is effectively saying that her initial 
>discontent with that status was a youthful mistake.  I stand by what I said 

Here, I think Jim overstates the case.  Here is the dialog (abridged):

Faramir: "...I do not offer you my pity.  For you are a lady high and
valiant and have won yourself renown that shall not be forgotten; and
you are a lady beautiful, I deem, beyond even the words of the
Elven-tongue to tell.  And I love you..."

Eowyn: "I stand in Minas Anor, the Tower of the Sun, and behold! the
Shadow has departed!  I will be a shieldmaiden no longer, nor vie with
the great Riders [i.e. the Nazgul?], nor take joy only in songs of
slaying.  I will be a healer, and love all things that grow and are
not barren..."

Faramir: "...I will wed the White Lady of Rohan, if it be her will.
And if she will, then let us cross the River...and make a garden..."

The War is over: she did a great deed, and got the credit for it. And
now, she'd like to do something different.  Changing your plans
because circumstances change, and because your experience has changed
*you*, is NOT the same as saying your first actions were a mistake.  If
JRRT had really wanted to say "Women should be barefoot, pregnant, and
in the kitchen", then either he'd never have created the Eowyn
character (he'd have to find some other way of finishing off the Ring
Wraith), or she'd have come to a bad end.

Note that renouncing war in favour of gardening is also Faramir's
desire.  And given the Faramir/Boromir contrast, and how the two
brothers end up, this would seem to tell us somthing about Tolkien's
values.

>before:  The message imparted by Eowyn is that women may think they'd like
>to go out in the world and do the same things that men do, but ultimately,
>they'd be happier just getting married and assuming a domestic role.

>	--  Jim C. <jchokey@leland.stanford.edu>

And BTW, in case any one gets the wrong impression from above, I
consider myself a feminist, I support the right of women to go out and
do whatever they please with their lives, I'm *very* sensitive to
sexism and stereotyping.  I just think that this, and the racism
thread, have degenerated into a lot of PC sniping at a work which: 1)
isn't as offensive as all that and 2) for historical reasons, can't be
expected to conform to our ideas about the proper way to deal with
race and gender differences.
--
==Steve Watson: watson@sce.carleton.ca===Carleton University, Ottawa, Ontario==
| The above is the output of a 7th-order Markovian analysis of all posts on   |
| this group for the past month.  Not only is it not Carleton's opinion, it's |
| not even *my* opinion: it's really just a mish-mash of all YOUR opinions!   |