HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ehare@arrl.org (Ed Hare - KA1CV)
Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.misc
Subject: Re: How good is TEN-TEC DELTA II ?
Date: 3 Oct 92 14:59:42 EDT
Organization: American Radio Relay League

In rec.radio.amateur.misc, mohan@jupiter.cse.utoledo.edu (Mohan Pakkurti) writes:

>Can someone give me info or opinions regarding the TEN-TEC DELTA II HF
>transceiver?

This appeared in a QST Product Review in the January 1992 issue of QST.

Reprints are available from ARRL HQ. Contact bdicosim@arrl.org for 
information about Product Review reprints.

If anyone would like an email copy of our list of Product Reviews, send me
a request asking for it. (Please also let me know if you are a League member
or not -- if not I will also send you some promotional material. :-) ).

73 from ARRL HQ, Ed


-----
Ed Hare, KA1CV                  ehare@arrl.org
American Radio Relay League
225 Main St.
Newington, CT  06111            There is no limit to what you can 
(203) 666-1541 - voice          accomplish if you don't care who
ARRL Laboratory Supervisor      gets the credit. - Harry S Truman
RFI, xmtr and rcvr testing  
-----
Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.misc
From: jhays@boi.hp.com (John_D. Hays)
Subject: Re: Original License or is Copy OK ?
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 04:27:00 GMT
Organization: Hewlett Packard - Boise Printer Division

If you are "pocketing" the original of the "new style" license ... it is
printed by xerography and the toner has been known to wear off ... suggest
that you enclose it in plastic.

John
-- 
John D. Hays [KD7UW]           |Email: [UUCP]          ...!hplabs!hpdmd48!jhays
Firmware Engineer              |       [INTERNET]              jhays@boi.hp.com
Boise Printer Division         |       [GEnie]                             HAYS
Boise, Idaho                   |       [Compu$erve]                   72725,424
From: RON@NSULA.EDU (Ron Wright - NSU Computer Center)
Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.misc
Subject: FCC and Special License Requests
Date: 30 Sep 92 21:26:00 GMT
Organization: UCSD Usenet Gateway
NNTP-Posting-Host: ucsd.edu

I've seen several postings recently in response to questions about 
requests for special calls, etc.  In these responses just about everyone
makes reference to an inadequate computer system as being one of the 
reasons for their inability to do this.

This is CRAZY!  A system that will not allow them to edit records!
What do they do when you send in a 610 form to change your address????
Build a new record and delete the old one?!

If their system is this old and inadequate I would be more than happy
(for a nominal fee and 1x2 call sign) to rewrite this for them.

I can understand a lack of manpower to process the request but I think
blaming the computer is a poor execuse.  If they're worried about tracking
changes....Add a field on each record for previous callsign.  Any programmer
worth his salary should be able to handle this one.

[My 2 Cents!!!]

Ron - KA5LUG

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ron Wright - KA5LUG                Internet:  RON@ALPHA.NSULA.EDU
User Support Specialist           	      KA5LUG@AMSAT.ORG
Northwestern State University     
Natchitoches, LA  71497
(318) 357-5594                     Packet:    KA5LUG@N5HOF.LA.USA.NA
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.misc
From: pschleck@cwis.unomaha.edu (Paul W Schleck KD3FU)
Subject: Elmers Wanted, Apply Within
Reply-To: elmers-request@unomaha.edu
Organization: ACM Student Chapter, University of Nebraska at Omaha
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 03:51:25 GMT
Expires: Sun, 15 Nov 1992 06:00:00 GMT

As noted previously, the Amateur Radio Elmers Resource Directory will be
2 years old early next year.  In order to maintain its value to the net,
I have strived to keep it accurate and up-to-date and constantly seek
out new Elmers to join the list.

Since there will most likely be several obsolete entries on the list to
be deleted, I'd like to replace them with new, motivated, quality Elmers
from the net.  Areas of expertise that are most desirable for the list
right now include:

Digital Signal Processing (DSP)
TCP/IP Packet Radio and Gateways/Internetworking
Amateur Satellites
Amateur-related Software for Unix/PC/Mac/Amiga

Although expertise in any other area would, of course, be welcome also.

I'd like to emphasize that participation is totally voluntary, with very
minimal obligations (1 or 2 polite inquiries a month, if feedback from
existing Elmers is any indication).  If you find that it is too much
work, you are welcome to bow out, no questions asked.  In the 2 years I
have managed the list, only 1 Elmer resigned (and only because he was
going on sabbatical to write a book, with a promise to return
afterwards). 

I've also attempted to seek out people on the net who I think would be
good Elmers.  If you've received a personal E-mail invitation from me, I
urge you to give it serious consideration.  The net would appreciate
your volunteerism.

73, Paul W. Schleck, KD3FU

pschleck@unomaha.edu (personal mail)
elmers-request@unomaha.edu (Elmers List administrivia)
From: ron@topaz.bds.com (Ron Natalie)
Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.misc
Subject: Re: RTTY and a PC
Date: 30 Sep 1992 13:41:59 GMT
Organization: BDS Systems
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: topaz.bds.com

You'll need what boils down to a special "modem."  You will also need software
(or hardware) to shift from the 5 bit (baudot) RTTY codes to ASCII that your
PC generally wants.  Perhaps the easiest way to accomplish this is to buy
a RTTY Terminal Unit.  Typically these things are RADIO AUDIO IN->RS-232 out
things.  You used to be able to find RTTY only versions of these (you may still
at hamfests) but they've been pretty much replaced by the Multimode TNC's such
as the AEA PK-232.  These units do Packet, RTTY, AMTOR, and to a lesser extent
FAX and MORSE decoding.

RTTY isn't all that hard to demodulate, it's just a tone that varies typically
170 Hz.  I've seen little cheap RTTY demodulators in RS-232 shells (probably
just a PLL) and then software has to do all the work.  Look in the back of
the scanner mags.

I have a PK-232, the tuning indicator on it, is however a big help.   If you
ever do decide to go ahead and get your license, then the PK-232 will probably
be adequate for you a long while.

-Ron "AMTOR Junkie" WO2L

Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.misc
From: pierson@empror.enet.dec.com (dave pierson)
Subject: Re: Tesla Coils
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 22:17:11 GMT

	If you can find a copy:

		Vacuum Tesla Coils
		ISBN 0-924758-00-7
		James F Corum PhD (EMag...)
		Kenneth L Corum

	Good book.  No "connect grid to ground thru c7" plans, but theory and
	math (and smith charts....).  Applicable to traditional (spark gap)
	designs.

		High Energy Enterprises
		PO Box 5636
		Security, CO
		80931

	Have various Tesla books (and sundry fringe science volumes).  They also
	have the Corum's and D J Edwards:

		TCTUTOR a PC Analysis of Spark Gap Tesla Coils
		(IBM...PC/XT/AT, MSDOS 2.0 or later.  Also contains source in
		ASCII for MS Quick Basic 4.0.) and 110 p manual.

			$12.00

thanks
dave pierson			|the facts, as accurately as i can manage,
Digital Equipment Corporation	|the opinions, my own.
146 Main St			|I am the NRA.
Maynard, Mass	
01754				pierson@majsty.enet.dec.com
"He has read everything, and, to his credit, written nothing."  A J Raffles
Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.misc
From: mikef@pacifier.rain.com (Mike Freeman)
Subject: Re: Two word lists needed.
Keywords: alpha, bravo, Able, Baker
Organization: Pacifier BBS
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1992 04:01:36 GMT

In article <1992Sep25.150318.13836@vela.acs.oakland.edu> lmbrown@vela.acs.oakland.edu (lmbrown) writes:

>I need a list of the military phonetic alphabets (both the old and new).
>That is, Able, Baker, Charlie, etc. and alpha, bravo, etc.  Could one
>confident person please post this.  Sorry if this is a FAQ.
>
>Thanks,

Hello, Len!

Not absolutely sure on the "old" military alphabet but here's the new one:

ALPHA
BRAVO
CHARLIE
DELTA
ECHO
FOXTROT
GOLF
HOTEL
INDIA
JULIET
KILO
LIMA
MIKE
NOVEMBER
OSCAR
PAPA
QUEBEC
ROMEO
SIERRA
TANGO
UNIFORM
VICTOR
WHISKY
X-RAY
YANKEE
ZULU

There's half of your answer. <grin>

73

-- 
Mike Freeman <K7UIJ>    |       Internet: mikef@pacifier.rain.com
301 N.E. 107th Street   |       GEnie: M.FREEMAN11
Vancouver, WA 98685 USA |       FidoNet: Mike Freeman at 1.105/126
Telephone (206)574-8221 |       Loose bits sink chips!
Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.misc
From: protein@garfield.catt.ncsu.edu (Chris Blackmon)
Subject: Re: How to balance a tuna?
Organization: North Carolina State University
Distribution: na
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 18:56:10 GMT

I don't know... smells kinda fishy to me....

:+)


Chris Blackmon, N4VGK		||  In this business, you either lead, follow
protein@garfield.catt.ncsu.edu	||  or get the hell out of the way.
protein@hornet.catt.ncsu.edu    ||
"pour aller ou personne n'est jamais alle'...."
From: ron@topaz.bds.com (Ron Natalie)
Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.misc
Subject: Re: Do ARRL Read Thier Email ?
Date: 2 Oct 1992 21:09:38 GMT
Organization: BDS Systems
Distribution: usa
NNTP-Posting-Host: topaz.bds.com

> Common courtesy aside, surely, it would be good PR for the League to at least
> issue an acknowledgment to anybody who mails in an inquiry.

I've noticed it two.  While three or four leaguers seem to monitor netnews
and respond occasionally, I've never gotten answers to the personal correspondence I've tried to send these people through e-mail.

-Ron
From: phantom@pro-haven.cts.com (Tiffany Keller)
Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.misc
Subject: Re: ICOM-2SRA: 2m and Scanner: How is it?
Date: 1 Oct 92 22:14:40 GMT
Organization: ProLine [pro-haven] - Pariahs' Haven BBS, 409/693-8262, 9600-300

Howdy!
        
        I am the proud owner of an IC2-SRA and I like it a *lot*!!!
        I don't know exactly how fast it scans and all though.....I do know
that when you scan on One or Both sides, It Sucks the Juice outta the
battery a lot quicker than if you don't scan, but this is probably
normal...
        It can receive on both sides at once, has independant audio
and squelch controls, and on the receive band will receive AM, Wide FM, or
Narrow FM.....It receives from 25MHz to 950MHz Continuous after a simple
keyboard mod.....
        The receive antenna isn't the greatest...It's an 1/8th" phone jack
plug....and it tends to get pulled out very easily.....
        I have had a few problems with it picking up its own internal
oscillations when listening to the 2m side and scanning the Rx band
side...But that's probably a minor design flaw or somethin'.....
        Overall, I'm very happy with my IC2-SRA.....

        Later!  73!

        T. Keller

----
Internet:  phantom@pro-haven.cts.com      Tiffany Bloxom
UUCP:      crash!pro-haven!phantom
From: buchanan@bme1.utmem.EDU
Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.misc
Subject: Re: Info-Hams Digest V92 #1011
Date: 30 Sep 1992 12:43:45 -0700
Organization: UCSD Usenet Gateway
NNTP-Posting-Host: ucsd.edu

>With the
>exception of the WN-series call, I don't think the FCC has ever reissued
>a call except by request (back when they were willing to take those requests).

>-Ron
This is not true.  The FCC made at least one pass back through the W's
and K's before they issued the WA's.  My call is reissued and, as a
barely teen age ham I was confronted on the air (on 75 meters) by
someone who knew that the former holder of my call was a silent key (or
silent D104) and was sure I was a bootlegger.  At the time I was first
licensed (1959), you could not request a call--that came somewhat later
with "incentive" licensing.
	Jack
	K4FRS  (ex KN4FRS)
Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.misc
From: dbushong@wang.com (Dave Bushong)
Subject: Re: Kenwood TM-741 Mods. PLEASE READ.
Organization: Wang Labs, Lowell MA, USA
Date: Fri, 02 Oct 92 19:21:58 GMT

ccoprfm@prism.gatech.EDU (Monte Freeman) writes:


>  Some time back someone posted a message asking if there would be any interest
>in creating a kind of 'super-manual' for the 741. I replied to this person, but
>never heard back from him. If I get enough interest; I may consider doing a
>project like this myself.

That person is me -- the project is underway and I expect it to be ready
for rough draft review at the end of this month.  It's looking good so
far!

There were a dozen or so people who expressed interest and a lot of
people sent me a bunch of mods that I didn't have!

Dave
-- 
Dave Bushong, Wang Laboratories, Inc.
Project Leader, OCR products
Internet: dbushong@wang.com
Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.misc
From: st1pb@rosie.uh.edu (Burris, Dean E.)
Subject: Re: Mac Morse Code
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: University of Houston
Distribution: na
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1992 01:43:00 GMT

In article <1992Oct1.152622.21227@linus.mitre.org>, m14494@mwvm.mitre.org (Mike White) writes...
>Burris, Dean E. writes:
>> Does anybody know where I can get a decent Mac morse code
>> tutor program? 
> 
>"Morse Code Tutor" for the mac is available in the info-mac section
>of sumex-aim.stanford.edu
> 
>It's pretty good... I've been using it for a little while now.  Good luck
>73...
>Mike, N4PDY
> 
>************************
>* These are my opinions only.*
>************************
Thanks, I'll give it a try.

Dean - KB5USC
From: randall@informix.com (Randall Rhea)
Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.misc
Subject: Re: 10M FM
Date: 30 Sep 92 18:17:00 GMT
Organization: Informix Software, Inc.

UWELTO@UNC.OIT.UNC.EDU (John Welton) writes:

>I just found 10M FM. I wonder if my colleagues could answer a
>few questions? It seems the 4 repeater channels are active as
>well as 29.600 simplex. I also heard some stations at 29.500 and as
>low as 29.100. Have they abandoned the OSCAR subband? It seems that
>there is some simplex activitity between 29.3 and 29.5.

There are only four repeater pairs, and you have found all of
them.  29.600 is the most popular calling/simplex frequency.
I don't know much about the OSCAR subband.

>I'm also curious if Novice/Tech plus hams can operate FM from
>28.3 to 28.5. It seems they have voice privledges here but
>I don't see where it specifies mode. Since narrow band FM is
>allowed to 28.3 can N/T operate FM here?

Novices cannot use FM at all.  Techs can use FM only 
on 6m and above.  You must have at least a General class ticket
to operate FM on 10m.

I really enjoy FM on 10m and wish that it were used more often.

73 DE KK6MY

-- 

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Randall Rhea                                        Informix Software, Inc. 
Project Manager, MIS Sales/Marketing Systems    uunet!pyramid!infmx!randall
From: gary@ke4zv.uucp (Gary Coffman)
Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.misc
Subject: Re: FCC and Special License Requests
Date: 1 Oct 92 17:59:43 GMT
Reply-To: gary@ke4zv.UUCP (Gary Coffman)
Organization: Gannett Technologies Group

In article <920930162508.5062@NSULA.EDU> RON@NSULA.EDU (Ron Wright - NSU Computer Center) writes:
>I've seen several postings recently in response to questions about 
>requests for special calls, etc.  In these responses just about everyone
>makes reference to an inadequate computer system as being one of the 
>reasons for their inability to do this.
>
>This is CRAZY!  A system that will not allow them to edit records!
>What do they do when you send in a 610 form to change your address????
>Build a new record and delete the old one?!
>
>If their system is this old and inadequate I would be more than happy
>(for a nominal fee and 1x2 call sign) to rewrite this for them.
>
>I can understand a lack of manpower to process the request but I think
>blaming the computer is a poor execuse.  If they're worried about tracking
>changes....Add a field on each record for previous callsign.  Any programmer
>worth his salary should be able to handle this one.

The computer is certainly an IBM 360 programmed in spagetti assembler
by a deceased contract programmer from a low bidder IBM service bureau. 
It's the *same* program that manages the commerical licensee database 
and changing *anything* could crash the entire FCC file system costing 
millions of dollars to reconstruct. Documentation, we don't need no 
stinking documentation.

And they've only got one guy who knows how to run it, and he only works 
on Thursdays. (That part's true. Amateur licenses are only run on Thursdays.)

Gary KE4ZV
From: joberreu@sumax.seattleu.edu (Jesse Oberreuter)
Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.misc
Subject: Yeasu FT-415 mods
Date: 6 Oct 92 18:30:18 GMT
Organization: Seattle University, Seattle WA


     I am aware of the extended recieve range that the 415 is capable of,
but the 411e I had last allowed me to set both the transmit and recieve
capabilities of the transever (both with jumpers and with a computer using
its "clone" mode).  I am wondering if and how I could do the same w/ my 415.



-- 
Jesse Oberrueter (KB7PSG)
joberreu@seattleu.edu


Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.misc
From: wa2ise@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (robert.f.casey)
Subject: Re: How to Transfer a Call Sign
Organization: AT&T
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 22:33:30 GMT

In article <1acah0INNm7n@topaz.bds.com> ron@topaz.bds.com (Ron Natalie) writes:
>You don't have to worry about it being reissued, as they are not reissuing
>calls to anybody (hence the reason you couldn't get it either).  With the
>exception of the WN-series call, I don't think the FCC has ever reissued
>a call except by request (back when they were willing to take those requests).

The FCC did for a while recycle callsigns.  Got my license back in '76,
and my call was recycled.  Once found the orginal holder in an old callbook,
he got it sometime in the late 50s- early 60s.  I think the FCC did this
for only a year or two back then.  I didn't mind a recycled call, I like
having a "W" callsign.  Get to say "Whiskey ...." :-)  Also a vague
connection to the broadcast stations here in the east people get when 
I tell non-hams my call.
73 de WA2ISE
From: weare@bostech.COM
Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.misc
Subject: Re: Using computer power supplies to power rigs?
Date: 6 Oct 1992 07:24:04 -0700
Organization: UCSD Usenet Gateway
NNTP-Posting-Host: ucsd.edu

jeffj@seeker.mystic.com writes:
>I opened my PC up the other day and lo and behold the power supply had
>a sticker that stated the usual voltages and what amperage they would put
>out. What really caught my eye was the fact that it would put out 10 amps
>at 12 volts. A friend of mine is using a spare computer power supply to
>power his 25 watt 10 meter rig with no ill effects. As I can buy 200 watt
>computer supplies for around $40 here in the Bay Area it looks like
>a good way to power my various QRP projects tht I have laying around.
>Is there any reason why this might not be a good idea? Thanks and 73!

I never used a PC PSU, but I twice tried to use surplus switching PSUs
to power an HF rig.  Both died very quickly, because (I believe) RF got
into the switching stuff.  I don't believe PC PSUs (which are also
*switching PSUs*) would be any more tolerant of RF; the PSUs I used were
quality MIL spec devices, whereas the PC ones are cheap consumer
garbage.  True, I use a PC for HF packet and RTTY, and the PSU doesn't
die.  But that's a lot different than actually powering the rig from
one.  I eventually shelled out the bucks for a "real" Astron linear
PSU, and that works without any problem.  The thing that eventually
convinced me was that the switchers *might* have died so that the full
120V AC got through to the rig; maybe unlikely, but I didn't want to
kill the rig for the sake of $40 of PSU ( I got the switchers for $20,
the Astron I got for around $60 or so).  I don't know what a 10A Astron
goes for now ($50? $60?), but if a PC PSU is $40 (I'd expect more for a
decent one), then the savings are very small for the extra risk.  Get
an Astron (or similar *linear* PSU).

Just an opinion, you may have no problem at 25W.
----
Jed Weare, NF1Z                weare@bostech.com
Boston Technology              (617) 246-9000 x3519
100 Quannapowitt Parkway
Wakefield, MA 01880.
From: cookav@catipult.anatcp.rockwell.COM
Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.misc
Subject: re: Weak BNC's ??
Date: 29 Sep 92 16:19:35 GMT
Organization: UCSD Usenet Gateway
NNTP-Posting-Host: ucsd.edu

In a earlier posting Marc Unangst states:
>Unfortunately, twist-on and crimp-on BNC connectors are not as
>mechanically strong as the solder-on type.  Yes, solder-on connectors
>require more time and care when attaching to the cable.  But I think
>it's worth it when you wind up with a connector so strongly attached
>that the cable breaks before cable<->connector junction does.

I have, for several years, been using the Trompeter BNC connector for
all of my installation.  This thing is best described as a "Wrench-On"
connector.  No soldering, and in my "hang tests (270 pounds of N7CEU
dangling from the cable) it is always the cable that fails.  No soldering,
and stronger than the hubs of hell (The hubs operate at high temperature,
and under a heavy load, hence their great strength).

On another note, having followed this thread from the beginning, is it not
interesting to note that a connector that was initially maligned as a
"3db attenuator" is now suffering abuse only because it isn't WATERPROOF?
Good Grief :)
73
___________________________________-:!:-____________________________________
Alan V. Cook                           Internet: AVCOOK@ananov.remnet.ab.com
Rockwell International                 Ham Packet: N7CEU @ WF6O
(714) 762-0843                         DoD: #0701
                     Alternate Internet: Cookav@catipult.anatcp.rockwell.com
From: Joe.J.Retzer@mailbox.bison.mb.ca (Joe J Retzer)
Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.misc
Subject: Frequency Counter Accuracy
Date: 24 Sep 92 23:09:28 CST

Organization: University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
Reply-To: retzer@convex.csd.uwm.edu

I recently purchased a Startek BG-15 frequency counter. I tried to test
its effectiveness with a cordless phone and a CB radio (not MY cb, but
one that belonged to a friend ;-). In any case I'm a little dissapointed.
I could'nt get any reading below about 52 MHZ on the phone (which I assume
is in the 49 MHZ range) and the readings I did get were not stable, implying
that it was not locking onto a frequency. 

As for the CB, the results were mixed. About 50% of the time the reading was
close but did not "lock on", ie. fluctuated around the correct reading.
Other times it locked dead on to the correct frequency. I was sitting in
the car with the antenna sticking out the window. 

My question is: 
Is this the best I can expect from a frequency counter?
(this is the first one I've used).
Or,
Does it sound like there might be a problem with the unit?
Or,
Am I doing something wrong and/or overlooking something?

				Thanks in advance,
				    Joe Retzer N9QXL

 * Origin: The Electronic Mailbox (1:348/7.0)
From: mcovingt@athena.cs.uga.edu (Michael A. Covington)
Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.misc
Subject: Re: Operating Procedures
Summary: Plain English
Date: 29 Sep 92 02:44:48 GMT
Organization: University of Georgia, Athens

Re "the personal here is" for "my name is", and other barbarisms...

Radio is a lot like scholarly writing in one important respect: lots of
people think they aren't supposed/allowed to speak plain English when
doing it.

The world is full of people who, in front of a microphone, won't call
a name a name.  The world is also full of young scientists who, writing
their first journal article, think they have to use the most stilted,
overinflated prose they can manage -- where every "method" is a
"methodology" and instead of "X kicked Y" we get "an incident of pedal
contact initiated by X and affecting Y" and you get the idea...

I think the sociolinguistic principle is the same.  People don't _notice_
plain English when they hear it on the air or see it in a journal.
Instead, they imitate things they _notice_, i.e., oddities, in a frantic
attempt to belong.

73 de N4TMI (PhD linguistics, they pay me to think about things like this!).

-- 
+ Michael Covington - Artificial Intelligence Programs - U of Georgia - USA 
+ Unless otherwise noted, these are private opinions, not official statements.
Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.misc