From: fester@island.COM (Mike Fester)
Subject: Re: Degrees of racism (was Re: Caucasians don't understand)
Organization: /usr/local/rn/organization
Distribution: na
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 16:02:12 GMT

In article <1992Aug25.014819.8290@oakhill.sps.mot.com> jpak@manute.sps.mot.com (Kinder and Gentler Jim) writes:
>In article <1992Aug24.202037.6176@island.COM> fester@island.COM (Mike Fester) writes:
>>Are we to assume, then, that YOUR experiences should be trivialized, because,
>>after all, Asians weren't treated as badly as blacks or Indians?
>
>If I were to walk into soc.culture.african.american or a hypothetical
>soc.culture.native.american right in the middle of a thread where a Black
>or Native American person was talking about their encounters with racism, and
>then try to brush off *their* experiences by saying I've encountered racism
>too, then ***YES***, I most certainly *WOULD* expect my experiences to be
>trivialized in that newsgroup.  And good for me!!  I'd look awfully stupid
>trying to compare some of my troubles with theirs.

So, why complain at all?

>>>>I do not recall belittling Asian complaints about discrimination.
>>>
>>>I've re-read your post, and I agree.
>>
>>Pity you didn't do that before you responded previously.

>When did I ever previously *DIS*agree with that statement of yours?

You posted several responses previous to that one.

>I made no stand previously on your comment above about not belittling Asian
>discrimination complaints.  I never responded either way.  My comment above
>is the *FIRST* time I've said anything about it.

>What do you want me to do, agree with you before I even agree with you?

>>>>I do recall mentioning that some of us HAVE been on the receiving end of
>>>>such discrimination. And that some of us remain optimistic anyway.

>>>Sure, but then I don't see why it shouldn't be "fair game" to analyze the
>>>*degree* of racism you've encountered, not just that you've encountered it.
>
>>Right. So analyze the degree to which YOU'VE encountered it, compare to, eg,
>>American Indian or black discrimination.
>
>I have, plenty of times.  I know I haven't gotten it as bad.  Darn right I
>know it.  Happy now?  On the other hand, Mike, have you *EVER*, and I mean
>even *ONCE*, in this newsgroup, ever made the point that you *haven't*
>experienced as much racism as an Asian American person?  Ever done it?
>Didn't think so.

Then you should go back and read some old posts.

>For that matter, when's the last time any White person here ever admitted it?
>Can you remember?  Boy, it's been a long time...  All we have is JJ trying to
>compare it to the difference between 1.000000 and 1.000001.  Wow, that's a
>really big admission...

We also have many persons (such as your esteemed self) proclaiming that they
somehow know the "white experience" but it is impossible for a white to really
know the "Asian experience".

>by saying they're "overreacting" (or some other stupid comment).

Unless they were white.

>Got that, Mike?  I have ***NEVER***, ***EVER*** tried to brush off the racism
>that African American or Native American people have said they've encountered
>by saying, "Hey guys, I've had tough times too and my attitude is still better
>than yours."  I have ***NEVER***, ***EVER***, not in any single newsgroup in
>the entire net, made comments to any Black person talking about racism along

See above.

>it was because somebody wrongly reported your car was stolen; that's standard
>police procedure in those kind of cases; I've suffered racism too and geez,
>I'm more optimistic about it than you."  Sound familiar??

Nope.

>So, yes, if any *African American* person with an "optimistic" attitude wants
>to come in here and tell me how my own attitude should be more "optimistic"
>too because "look at all I've gone through and I'm still upbeat," I will
>definitely pay very close attention to his or her words.
>
>But ain't it funny how I haven't seen a single African American person come
>into this newsgroup during this or previous threads and try to downplay
>claims of racism by Asian American people here.  Gee, I wonder why...

Probably posting to other newsgroups. And BTW, you obviously have forgotten
Mr D Jackson of Northwestern. He did rahter downplay Asian-American claims of
racism.

>>I played football, and I wrestled. Those guys wouldn't really care. The fact 
>>that you're a tennis player means your complaint would be dismissed out-of-
>>hand.  Tennis is not considered a "sport" by most of those people.
>
>Gee, thanks for proving my point for me.  You're right, the people who have
>suffered worse "injury" don't particularly care to hear their injuries brushed
>off by comparisons of lesser injury from people who haven't had it as bad as

Then yo misunderstand. They don't consider you to be an athlete, really. Has
nothing to do with injuries.

>Tell me, if someone who had been in combat in real war talked to those players,
>would they have listened?  Yep, really tough concept to understand.

???

>>Tell that to my wife, who couldn't get several apartments she wanted because
>>she married a foriegner. We have yet to be denied anything here because of
>>my wife's race.
>
>Is your wife white?  Read my line again.  "...the experiences of a *WHITE*
>person *THERE* is not as "bad" as that of an *Asian American* *HERE*."
>Your wife's experiences *THERE* doesn't satisfy that criteria, unless your
>wife is white in Japan but Asian American here.

Guess what? She's neither. 

>BTW, I'm sure your wife will be pleased as punch to know you've just dismissed
>any kind of racism she might ever have encountered here in one sentence.

Those are her feelings on the subject. 

>Don't forget, "*We* have yet to be denied..." is not the same as "*She* has
>yet to be denied..."

AS pointed out above, that was not true in Japan. And BTW, in this case, yes,
it *IS* the same.

>>Also, a friend of mine, married to a white American now lives near his 
>>parents in Kobe. He has been denied several apartments because his wife
>>is white (and yes, he is a Japanese citizen).

>Same thing!  Is your friend "white" in Japan but AA when he was here?

?? He's Japanese. He's NOT Asian-American. Do you in fact read these things?

>Why don't you make the comparison I stated above?

You mean, compare the experience of "halfs" in Japan and here? Most of them
seem to prefer the US (an exception might be Miyazawa Rie; but then, she's never
lived anywhere BUT Japan).

>>>they experienced racism growing up, at least once in a while.  But the degree
>>>to which they experienced probably was different.  And that matters.
>>
>>So why do people discount their experiences?
>
>Huh?  In the absense of any smarminess on their end, who discounts their
>experiences?  When somebody not long ago posted that he grew up mostly in
>the Bay Area and thus hasn't really seen what AAs outside there experience,
>who discounted that?  It's only when someone in that situation tries to use
>their own less hostile experience to try to make it seem that they're some
>kind of better person for being more "optimistic" than others that you see
>any "discounting" done.
>
>>BTW, there was a recent discussion about a young woman from Tulsa, Oklahoma
>>who thought it rather "tacky" that there were so many Asian in San Francisco.
>>Obviously, she seemed to have a rather "optimistic" view of things.
>
>How did you discern "optimism" from her quote?  Saying there are a lot of
>Asians and yucky poo, it's kind of strange and weird..."  That's "optimism"
>in your book?
>
>What's your point about her, anyway?

I had rather thought Tulsa would be considered a conservative area. Further, she
doesn't seem to be bothered by being one of the few Asians in her area, and 
finds it "tacky" that there are so many in the BA.

>>>There are many things I've learned from this newsgroup, but one thing that
>>>sticks out in my mind is the often much more "positive" outlook on things by
>>>AAs who have grown up in areas where Asians were not looked upon as "strange."
>>
>>Actually, some of the more strident remarks come from areas where there is a
>>considerable Asian populace.

>I would agree with that, BUT... I'd make a guess that the most strident stuff
>you hear is from someone who grew up in a less tolerant area and who THEN
>wound up in an area with a lot of Asians.

Why don't you ask them?

Mike
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