From: krashok@mse.ogi.edu (Ashok Krishnamurthy)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil
Subject: Re:SiRu kathaigaL
Date: 22 Jan 93 00:47:11 GMT
Article-I.D.: ogicse.48932
Distribution: world
Organization: Oregon Graduate Institute, Material Science & Engineering

In an article, C.R.Selvakumar writes:

>>In article <48816@ogicse.ogi.edu> krashok@mse.ogi.edu (Ashok Krishnamurthy) writes:
>Sometime back, I had posted an article titled "SiRu KathaigaL".
>(Sorry, I did not store the follow-up.). Selva had mentioned
                                          ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>about being cautious while dealing with people who appear to
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>be good superficially but are really embodiments of evil.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

>>      I quoted from a Chapter on 'kayamai' in ThirukkuRaL.
	( "makkaLE pOlvar kayavar.."). 
>
>I have the following comments to offer:
>
>1. The term evil appears to be relative. For the fly on the
>   wall, the lizard represents the ultimate in evil while for a 
>   bird, it is not so. Sri Aurbindo Ghosh and others of his kind
>   were "freedom-fighters" for us, whereas they were "terrorists"
>   for the Britishers; and so on.

>>       Lizard and fly are not thought to have 'aaRam aRivu'
>>       so are not relevant here. 


        You are right. I could have chosen a better example.


>>       Aurobindo's 'role' might be described as 'terrorist or
>>       freedom-fighter' depending on whose side you are BUT
>>       FOR BOTH sides the role he played is 'fighting the
>>       british to win freedom for india'.  What vaLLuvar
>>       calls 'kayamai' is to pretend like fighting british but
>>       actually help the british. Some talk like patriots
>>       but actually they are dividing and fragmenting the country ..
>>       taking the country to its downfall and bring disgrace..
>>       An example is Nazi movement and Hitler. I have heard
>>       racists' words in Canada and I can recognize one 
        ( read: British 'author' David Irving  
         and Zundel et al..also read the well-known scientist
         of great repute and who is quite rightly called 'father of
         embryology Dr. Ernst Haeckel and see how much venom 
>>       he has..).. these are examples of 'kayamai'


         Again, pretending to fight the British but actually helping
         them, would be bad from the Indian point of view,but good 
         from the British viewpoint.
         In fact, in the Mahabharata, it is mentioned that one of the
         attributes of a good spy is to blend himself with the
         surroundings and act as though he is on the side of the 
         enemy king. This would be termed as 'kayamai' from the
         point of view of the enemy king but not so by the 
         other side.

         This is what I meant by good and bad being relative.



>2. If one believes in God, one must accept that God created both
>   "good" and "evil".

>>        To believe in God is okay. But to say that God did this
>>        and God said this is slippery. First let us find God :-)
>>        and then we will ask him/her/it whether he/she/it did 
>>        this and this..


          By belief in God, I mean that "everything" in this
          universe is God's will. God did this and that and
          everything one can ever imagine. Paradoxically,God
          is beyond everything God has created as
          pointed out by you(Thiruvalluvar) in the next paragraph.

          But you have made a wonderful point about finding God
          first.



>>       vaLLuvar says 'iruLsEr iruvinaiyum sEraa iRaivan' 
         ( iru_vinai = nal_vinai + thI_vinai - good and bad
            ACTION); thus vaLLuvar says GOD ( iRaivan) is
         beyond these 'good and bad actions'. WE repeat We
>>       have to find out the truth.
         
>
>3. Many great saints have proclaimed that there can be no evil
>   in a world that is created by God.(example:Swami Vivekananda)

>>       (First let me say that I don't believe that Vivekananda
>>       was a saint. I believe Ramakrishna was. I believe
>>       Sri RamaNa maharishi was..)


        I do not know your standards for differentiating one
        saint from another or a saint from a non-saint. If 
        you think that Swami Vivekananda was not a saint,
        that's your prerogative.

        Other spiritual persons who have said the same thing
        (whom I know of) are Shri Aurobindo(In the book
        "Life Divine",in Chapter 4 or Chapter 6 ,I think,he
         goes on to say the same thing and adds that "pleasure 
         can be converted to pain and vice-versa" as both are
         in one's mind), Adi Shankara(by postulating monism,
         he declares one cannot have good and bad or any kind
         of duality....there is only One),etc.



>>       In point 2 you said that God created 'good' and 'evil'
>>       but in point 3 you say that 'many great saints proclaimed
>>       there is no evil in a world that is created by God.'
>>       Can you clarify ?


         You are right. It does seem contradictory. What I meant
         was,if one believes that bad exists(which has been denied
         by many saints),it must also be due to God because God
         has created everything in this universe.


>
>Going by the above statements, and considering practical,day-to-
>day living, I think one should take steps to avoid being affected
>by evil and at the same time not hate the "evil-doer".After all,
                              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>     I agree one need not 'hate' but one can be firm in
       'not accepting or encouraging' such deeds and show
       strong disapproval to the 'doer' in an appropriate
       manner. If jeffrey Dahmer ( the cannibal) approaches
       you, you should know what to do ( 'hate' won't help but
>>     wisdom and perception and a quick action will).

>love and hate relate to the mind/heart primarily and hence the
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>  VERY true. I entirely agree.

>saints may have meant that we should not fill our hearts with
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>hate for "evil" people. In fact,we might even offer a prayer for
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

>>     Having a hate is a hateful thing :-) 
>their reformation.
>
>With regard to Selva's comments elevating Jesus,Prophet Muhammed,
               ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

>>    elevate ? nay !! They were great ? yes, I believe so.

>etc. to a super-human level, I would say that any of us could
>reach their level if we strive for it, because I think it all
>relates to the training and disciplining of the mind and looking
>at the world from a different stand-point.

>>     I agree with you here. Every one of us are capable.
>>     Consider the inspiring words of ThiruvaLLuvar:

>>        'eNNiya eNNiyaangu eythuba (r)eNNiyar
>>        thiNNiya (r)aaaga(p) peRin'


        Your quote sounds wonderful but could you give the 
        meaning as I have not had the benefit of a Tamil
        background to a great extent?


>
>Ashok Krishnamurthy,
>Dept. of MS &E,
>OGI,Oregon,USA.
>---------------
>

>>   - Selva


     - Ashok 

Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil