HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.dipl-l
Date:         Wed, 18 Nov 1992 13:48:57 -0500
Reply-To:     David C Kovar <kovar@WORLD.STD.COM>
From:         David C Kovar <kovar@WORLD.STD.COM>
Subject:      Re: The new judge era

------- Forwarded Message

Date:    Wed, 18 Nov 92 12:59:35 -0500
From:    George Boyce <george@NR-TECH.CIT.CORNELL.EDU>
To:      David Kovar <kovar@WORLD.STD.COM>
Subject: Re: The new judge era

>	1) You would be running a game for profit. The NSFNET (part
>	   of the Internet) does not allow commercial use of their
>	   segments. I suspect you'd get away with it, but technically
>	   you'd be in violation.

>  I have volunteered to run one if someone can get a machine. Since
> I pay an hourly rate to get onto the Internet, I'm going to be
> doing this at a loss, financially. I've also offered to maintain
> the "official" version of the judge software.

# Maybe you are looking too far. world.std.com (and other companies)
# exist to provide commercial services. Someone could ask their favorite
# service provider if they would be interested in running a copy of the
# judge.

  world.std.com was just upgraded to support their own user base.
It's now a 4 CPU Solbourne, not a cheap machine. I've investigated
running empire or diplomacy on here, and I could, but it would cost
some reasonable amounts of money. They would not be willing to
sponsor it. Given the number of CPU cycles required to run the judge,
I doubt any of the commercial or public access sites would be willing
to provide it as a free service.

# People connected to the Internet via networks which do not allow
# commercial traffic have a problem, but it certainly isn't limited to
# people wanting to play games. There is an explosion of commercial
# Internet usage; if people haven't noticed, they will soon.

  As George points out, this is a problem for other services as well.
And people are already noticing. I suspect this restriction will drop
away fairly soon.

  The big hurdle, I still feel, is: If you charge money, people are
going to expect a "real" service and will complain a lot when they
don't get it. And, since you took their money to provide the service,
they have a handle on you. Running the judge is enough hassle
as it is.

  I think there is a solution, and I'm working on it, though I don't
have great hopes. Basically, run judge as a not-for-profit or
commercial service. I'm looking for backers/sponsors/whatever now.
Any leads, advice, help would be appreciated.

-David
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.dipl-l
Date:         Mon, 23 Nov 1992 10:44:25 EST
Reply-To:     Rick Desper <desper@MATH.RUTGERS.EDU>
From:         Rick Desper <desper@MATH.RUTGERS.EDU>
Subject:      the new judge

The new judge is fast (though load is still probably light).  But Lowe and
EFF are already full :-(.  Hmm, my last force just got popped in one
of my seven games, and two of my neigbors have graciously informed me
of my imminent demise in another game, maybe I have time for one more...

					Rick
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.dipl-l
Date:         Wed, 18 Nov 1992 12:59:35 -0500
Reply-To:     George Boyce <george@NR-TECH.CIT.CORNELL.EDU>
From:         George Boyce <george@NR-TECH.CIT.CORNELL.EDU>
Subject:      Re: The new judge era
              18 Nov 92 12:43:15 EST."
              <9211181745.AA01036@mitchell.cit.cornell.edu>

>	1) You would be running a game for profit. The NSFNET (part
>	   of the Internet) does not allow commercial use of their
>	   segments. I suspect you'd get away with it, but technically
>	   you'd be in violation.

>  I have volunteered to run one if someone can get a machine. Since
> I pay an hourly rate to get onto the Internet, I'm going to be
> doing this at a loss, financially. I've also offered to maintain
> the "official" version of the judge software.

Maybe you are looking too far. world.std.com (and other companies)
exist to provide commercial services. Someone could ask their favorite
service provider if they would be interested in running a copy of the
judge.

People connected to the Internet via networks which do not allow
commercial traffic have a problem, but it certainly isn't limited to
people wanting to play games. There is an explosion of commercial
Internet usage; if people haven't noticed, they will soon.

George
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.dipl-l
Date:         Mon, 23 Nov 1992 11:01:32 EST
Reply-To:     "Richard V. Lamb" <USER60T4@UMICHUM.BITNET>
From:         "Richard V. Lamb" <USER60T4@UMICHUM.BITNET>
Subject:      What is Jamie Drier's address?

I have a message to forward to Jamie Drier (pl#####@brown....bitnet).
Unfortunately, neither me nor the originator of the message knows the
exact address.  Please help.  You will add a player from Russia if you
do!

Rich Lamb
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Envelope-to: dipl-l@mitvma.BITNET
X-VMS-To: IN%"dipl-l@mitvma"
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.dipl-l
Date:         Wed, 18 Nov 1992 12:01:00 EST
Reply-To:     CLANCY@ITHACA.BITNET
From:         CLANCY@ITHACA.BITNET
Subject:      Re: More appreciation of Ken Lowe

Since I can't possibly say things more eloquently than Rick Desper said them,
I can only second his comments and suggestions.  Ken Lowe's work with the
Judge has been a great and enjoyable service to all of us, but I can imagine
the headaches it has created for him.  And I agree that dropouts prevent
enforcing a strict limit on the number of games a person can enter.  But
that's no reason not to limit the number of games being run on the Judge,
which is probably the best solution.  Once that number is reached, then it
would be up to other Judges to handle the overflow, or people would simply
have to wait to either (1) take over abandoned positions, or (2) enter
games created when there are "openings" on the Judge.  If this would save the
Judge, then I'm all for it.
--Stephen Clancy
clancy@ithaca.bitnet
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.dipl-l
Date:         Thu, 19 Nov 1992 11:38:10 MST
Reply-To:     S9IK9@STARBURST.USCOLO.EDU
From:         S9IK9@STARBURST.USCOLO.EDU
Subject:      RE: deluxe diplomacy

in responce to paul's question about the release date of the new
delux edition of diplomacy, the last i heard was sometime in feb.
this was pure gossip, but i believed it and am spreading it.  i
will look for the source, and try to verify the information..

mike magnuson
s9ik9@starburst.uscolo.edu
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.dipl-l
Date:         Mon, 23 Nov 1992 12:43:19 EST
Reply-To:     Rick Desper <desper@MATH.RUTGERS.EDU>
From:         Rick Desper <desper@MATH.RUTGERS.EDU>
Subject:      Two variants being offered on new judge

I have received permission to start two games on the new Judge: they
will be as follows.

1) Tiger:  a Youngstown game: not gunboat, just regular Youngstown.
I'm beginning to think that Youngstown deserves to be played with
partial press in general, if only to give the colonial powers some
chance.

2) Ocelot:  an 1898 White-press Gunboat game.  The 1898 variant is one
of my favorites, and my favorite Judge game so far was Sinai, a game
with the same flags as these.  If you like writing press, please sign
up.

	The address of the new judge is judge@morrolan.eff.org.
Thanks to David Kovar for volunteering to serve as JDR for the new
judge, and thanks again to Ken Lowe for his extended service in the
past as JDR at the Washington Judge.
					Rick Desper
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.dipl-l
Date:         Thu, 19 Nov 1992 11:51:55 MST
Reply-To:     S9IK9@STARBURST.USCOLO.EDU
From:         S9IK9@STARBURST.USCOLO.EDU
Subject:      dedication points

much as david said, the dedication of a player should be taken with a grain
of salt.  i have an extrodinarily low dedication (aprox - 450), but this is
not a true representation of my play.  at my school, accounts are rationed
rather tightly, and i shared my account with a freind who's major was such
that he could not get an account.  he abandonded 2 games and this is reflected
on my dedication.   also last summer when i was leaving to go work in the
mountains, i knew that i would not be able to play out my positions, and gave
as many away as i could.  the rest i left to a freind(different guy from the
first wanton abandoner) and he got bored and stopped playing them.

i have to accept responsibility for 1 abandoned position, but i resigned on
and played to completion..  but still lost 100 dedication points...

i'm just rambling, but there were some replacement positions that i would
have taken over and played to conclusion but could not as my dedication was
too low.

just a few thoughts...

mike magnuson
s9ik9@starburst.uscolo.edu
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Via:        UK.AC.LEEDS.GPS; 19 NOV 92 13:31:36 GMT
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.dipl-l
Date:         Thu, 19 Nov 1992 13:30:16 GMT
Reply-To:     amt5man@SUN.LEEDS.AC.UK
From:         amt5man@SUN.LEEDS.AC.UK
Subject: Re: Us selfish peons :-(

> I don't know too much about the politics of the internet,
> but would a $15 _registration_ fee really be "against the rules"?
> Charging per game would be too confusing, but what about yearly
> dues?  If it goes not for profit but to repay the administrators
> for their time, can it be that bad?  I for one would be more than
> willing to put in $10-15 to keep it running.  I'm Canadian, but
> can get hold of US$ pretty easily (though not in check form).
> The precise logistics of doing this internationally would be
> confusing.  Won't banks process foreign checks, though?
               

Almost all banks charge fees for cashing foreign cheques.  This is
normally either a % of the worth of the cheque *or* a standing fee for
cheques of small value.  A friend of mine recently sent a cheque for
20 pounds to Canada.  He was charged 18 pounds handling fee, so it cost him
38 pounds.

   No, even if charging fees was acceptable it is impractical for most
overseas players to send $$.

> Lastly, I'll join in the self-imposed limit of 3 games once my
> current games wind to a close... If people want more games, let them
> moderate them (I'm one to talk...I should start moderating).

Hmm.  Perhaps the limit should be 3 games *as a starting player* and an
unlimited amount of games as a SB?  SB's are doing everyone a favour and
if you restrict the total number of games people can play in you'll find
it much harder to find replacement players, especially for small powers.


Mark.
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Path:
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 tanford.EDU!jek
From: jek@Xenon.Stanford.EDU (James E. Kittock)
Subject: Re: Imminent death of the Net predicted; film at 11
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University.
 <CLUNE.92Nov18014651@physics2.berkeley.edu>
 <1992Nov18.172630.1015@muddcs.claremont.edu>
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 20:30:04 GMT

In article <1992Nov18.172630.1015@muddcs.claremont.edu>
 irilyth@fenris.claremont.edu (Josh Smith) writes:
>In a prior article, Tom (clune@physics.berkeley.edu) writes:
>> It seems that we need to divide the role of the judge into two parts.
>
>I've thought about various client-server models for the judge, and haven't
>really been able to come up with any. However, another scheme for splitting
>the judge occurred to me the other day: it might be easier to get people to
>create a number of single-variant judges rather than a single multi-purpose
>one.

This sounds like a good idea.  Might want to have
several of each type of judge or whatever.  One
question we would need an answer to is: does it take N
times as much effort to manage a judge running N games
as it takes to manage a judge running 1 game.  In other
words, when does managing a judge become a real chore?

Another thought is this: only allow one game per person
per server.  I realize that some people like to be
involved in 20 bazillion games at once, but this just
exponentiates the demand on judges.  Better to play a
little than none at all.

I wonder if Ken would provide us with some usage
statistics at some point?  I am esp. curious about the
number of games per player.

--james
--
james kittock -- cs grad student
"Adaptation is a recursive process in living systems." -- Alex. M. Andrew


From
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 edu!not-for-mail Thu Nov 19 13:03:10 EST 1992
Article: 118 of rec.games.diplomacy
Path:
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From: randall-joshua@yale.edu (Joshua Randall)
Newsgroups: rec.games.diplomacy
Subject: New Judge?
Date: 18 Nov 1992 03:49:38 -0500
Organization: Yale University Science & Engineering UNIX(tm), New Haven, CT
 06520-2158
 <1992Nov18.071550.20248@muddcs.claremont.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: minerva.cis.yale.edu

[Josh:  the "imminent death of the Net" goes in "news.groups", not
here <grin> --private joke, folks, sorry]

In article <1992Nov18.071550.20248@muddcs.claremont.edu>
 irilyth@fenris.claremont.edu (Josh Smith) writes:

[much deleted]

>Comments, suggestions, etc. welcomed as always.

What are the resources required to run a Judge?  Does it require its
own machine, or could it be run out of an individual account on a
mainframe?  Would a desktop IBM-clone have the power/memory/space
needed to run it?

--
Joshua E. Randall                       randall-joshua@yale.edu


From
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 dsinc!netnews.upenn.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!hirai Thu Nov 19 13:03:35 EST
 1992
Article: 127 of rec.games.diplomacy
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From: hirai@cc.swarthmore.edu (Eiji Hirai)
Newsgroups: rec.games.diplomacy
Subject: Re: New Judge?
Date: 18 Nov 92 15:52:36 GMT
 <1992Nov18.071550.20248@muddcs.claremont.edu>
 <1ed032INNa33@MINERVA.CIS.YALE.EDU>
Organization: Information Services, Swarthmore College, Swarthmore, PA, USA

BTW, I should warn folks who might be thinking of using the South African
judge that the network connection to South Africa is somewhat flakey.  (I
regularly send email there.)  I heard from some network guru there that their
link to Portland, and hence to North America is

	"currently a single voice-grade line with a pair of v32bis modems,
	which retrain down to 300bps from time to time, and need to be reset
	before they climb back to 12000bps (the fastest that they get on that
	line)."

Maybe the Australian connection to North America is faster and more reliable
for now.

--
hirai@cc.swarthmore.edu (Eiji Hirai)    :     :    :   :  : :: ::: :::: :::::
Unix Geek for Swarthmore College        :     :    :   :  : :: ::: :::: :::::
Information Services, Swarthmore, PA, US.       Copyright 1992 by Eiji Hirai.
I don't speak for Swarthmore College.                    All Rights Reserved.


From
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 .edu!darwin.sura.net!uvaarpa!murdoch!fermi.clas.Virginia.EDU!gl8f Thu Nov 19
 13:05:06 EST 1992
Article: 131 of rec.games.diplomacy
Newsgroups: rec.games.diplomacy
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From: gl8f@fermi.clas.Virginia.EDU (Greg Lindahl)
Subject: Re: New Judge?
Organization: Department of Astronomy, University of Virginia
 <1992Nov18.071550.20248@muddcs.claremont.edu>
 <1ed032INNa33@MINERVA.CIS.YALE.EDU>
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 16:49:27 GMT

In article <1ed032INNa33@MINERVA.CIS.YALE.EDU> randall-joshua@yale.edu (Joshua
 Randall) writes:

>What are the resources required to run a Judge?  Does it require its
>own machine, or could it be run out of an individual account on a
>mainframe?  Would a desktop IBM-clone have the power/memory/space
>needed to run it?

a 486 Unix box or sparcstation has quite a bit more horsepower than
the machine ken was running the judge on. the main criterion would be
strong support from whoever owns the machine and the local
institutional powers-that-be. I already spent my dime on 2 IRC
servers, I don't know if I have enough capital left to buy a Judge.


From
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Article: 120 of rec.games.diplomacy
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From: randall-joshua@yale.edu (Joshua Randall)
Newsgroups: rec.games.diplomacy
Subject: Thanks to Ken Lowe
Date: 18 Nov 1992 04:30:59 -0500
Organization: Yale University Science & Engineering UNIX(tm), New Haven, CT
 06520-2158
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: minerva.cis.yale.edu

I'd like to say thank you to Ken Lowe for the outstanding job he did
in running the Washington Judge.  It provided my with many hours of
error-free gaming.

I realize that "me too" postings are discouraged on UseNet.  But in
this case, I think we can make an exception.  Let's show Ken how much
we apprciate his efforts.

:-(   <--crying at the simultaneous deaths of Superman and the Judge

--
Joshua E. Randall                       randall-joshua@yale.edu


From
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 1992
Article: 124 of rec.games.diplomacy
Newsgroups: rec.games.diplomacy
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From: westerm@aclcb.purdue.edu (Rick Westerman)
Subject: Re: Thanks to Ken Lowe
Reply-To: westerm@aclcb.purdue.edu
Organization: Purdue University AIDS Center
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 14:04:11 GMT

randall-joshua@yale.edu (Joshua Randall) writes:
>I realize that "me too" postings are discouraged on UseNet.  But in
>this case, I think we can make an exception.  Let's show Ken how much
>we appreciate his efforts.

Me Too! Thank you Ken.

BTW: I noticed Ken mentioned he had only received a few postcards and
     T-shirts as a token of appreciation for his work. I remember reading
     a note a few years ago when I first starting using the Judge that
     Ken would like a T-shirt from places where people are using the
     Judge; e.g., I should send him a "Purdue" T-shirt. When I originally
     read the message the thought crossed my mind to send him one but I
     never did. Shame on me! Now I can't find the note. Does anyone know
     what size T-shirt Ken wears? And his snail-mail address (although I
     probably can find the latter)?

     Oh, maybe if we flood Ken with T-shirts he'll relent and start up
     the Judge again. :-)  In any case, it is a nice gesture.



-- Rick

Rick Westerman                System Manager of the AIDS Center Laboratory
westerm@aclcb.purdue.edu      for Computational Biochemistry (ACLCB), BCHM
Phone: (317) 494-0505         bldg., Purdue University, W. Lafayette, IN 47907
  FAX: (317) 494-7897



From
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 .edu!fs7.ece.cmu.edu!crabapple.srv.cs.cmu.edu!netnews.srv.cs.cmu.edu!belboz Thu
 Nov 19 13:09:18 EST 1992
Article: 137 of rec.games.diplomacy
Newsgroups: rec.games.diplomacy
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 .edu!fs7.ece.cmu.edu!crabapple.srv.cs.cmu.edu!netnews.srv.cs.cmu.edu!belboz
From: belboz@frc2.frc.ri.cmu.edu (Barry Brumitt)
Subject: Re: Thanks to Ken Lowe
Reply-To: belboz@frc2.frc.ri.cmu.edu (Barry  Brumitt)
Organization: Field Robotics Center, CMU
 <Bxx0F0.8GK@mentor.cc.purdue.edu>
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 19:17:20 GMT

Damn! Just as I found out about the judge, it's going down. Very sad
-- often the work of volunteers such as Ken *does* go unnoticed.

However, there is one significant issue which might affect the
decision to douse the judge.

* Whenever a new online service becomes available, during the first couple
* months it sees a massive surge in usage, which generally trickles off
* after a while, with much of the "transient - whoopee lookit this"
* crowd leaving. Perhaps a few months delay will soften the impact.

Or might limiting the number of games happening at one be feasible?

I'll even see if a spare computer is available around here... but I doubt
it.

Ken, even though I'm only playing Austraia in a game where I'm doomed
to loose - having taken over someone else untenable position, thanks
very much.

Barry




--
Barry Brumitt                        belboz@frc2.frc.ri.cmu.edu
RI Graduate Student                  (or) bb1v@andrew.cmu.edu
Field Robotics Center                Phone: (412) 268-7144
Carnegie Mellon University           "Who is John Galt?" $ Skydive!

Boring Disclaimer: The opinions contained herein do not necessarily
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=  represent those of the FRC, SCS, RI or even CMU.






From
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Article: 140 of rec.games.diplomacy
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From: rawdon@colby.cs.wisc.edu (Michael Rawdon)
Newsgroups: rec.games.diplomacy
Subject: Re: Thanks to Ken Lowe
Date: 18 Nov 92 21:26:19 GMT
 <Bxx0F0.8GK@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> <BELBOZ.92Nov18141719@hoe.frc.ri.cmu.edu>
Reply-To: rawdon@colby.cs.wisc.edu
Organization: University of Wisconsin Computer Sciences Dept., Madison, WI

In <BELBOZ.92Nov18141719@hoe.frc.ri.cmu.edu> belboz@frc2.frc.ri.cmu.edu (Barry
 Brumitt) writes:
>Or might limiting the number of games happening at one be feasible?

The problem with limiting the number of games-per-person is if someone
decides that they would rather go play game x instead of game y (say, if
they're struck by a whim to go play a Youngstown game forming instead of the
standard game they're in).  That would leave game y without a player,
whereas the player might have been willing to continue in game y *as well
as* game x if he hadn't been limited to (say) 3 games at one time.

But, then since *my* days of playing lots of games at once are long past, it
doesn't make a WHOLE lot of difference to me. :-)

--
Michael Rawdon				 rawdon@colby.cs.wisc.edu
University of Wisconsin Computer Sciences Department, Madison, WI

Mondays are not part of the productive work week:
	...eight hours and all I did today is compose this memo...
	...actually, it's more like a sentence than a whole memo...
	...and it probably needs a verb to be a sentence...
							- Dilbert


From
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Article: 125 of rec.games.diplomacy
Newsgroups: rec.games.diplomacy