From: franklin@ug.cs.dal.ca (Steve Franklin)
Newsgroups: talk.abortion
Subject: Re: THE IMPLICATIONS OF ABORTION ON OUR SOCIETYdir
Date: 6 Apr 92 18:58:21 GMT
Organization: Math, Stats & CS, Dalhousie University, Halifax, NS, Canada

In <1992Mar30.203505.1@amherst.edu> dlcraft@amherst.edu (deb, just deb) writes:

>Okay, I know that this posting has been already flamed to death, but there
>was one comment made that I really *had* to respond to:

   Don't flatter yourself or your colleagues dear... I don't think I have
been flamed to death in the least. That would imply that I have been burned,
disproved, and otherwise humbled by your postings, and that just isn't
the case. But, let's read on and see what you have to say.

>I'm very glad to hear that you have a personal "in" to your religion.  I'm 
>sure that you know better than anybody else exactly what it means to be a
>Catholic.  Or, for that matter, any Christian.
   I don't get your point... tsk tsk, we're off to a bad start here
Debbie...Oh, I mean deb, just deb.

>By denoting the other Catholics on this newsgroups as "catholics," thereby
   What is wrong with denoting Catholics as catholics? Do you mean heretics?
I am afraid that I don't get this point. Just because I forgot to 
capitolize the "c"?

>implying that you deny their claim to the distinction, you indicate an 
>appalling close-mindedness that has plagued organized religion almost since
   No, I do not. However, I do ascertain that a Catholic who does not
abide by the Catholic concepts and values has modified his religion to
meet his own needs. Thus, he/she has created a religion that he/she is
comfortable with, but it is not necessarily catholic. There are fundamental
concepts that cannot be touched within our church, and one of these is
the right to life. No IFS, ANDS, or BUTS about it my friend. The right
to life is precious, and not to be toyed with.

>its beginning.  What gives you the right to claim that somebody else is not
>really a Christian just because they don't adhere to your beliefs?  Granted,
   It's not my beliefs i am concerned about. It's God's guidelines. The word
of God tells us to defend all souls. I don't give one flying **** if they
believe what I believe. But, to call yourself a Catholic, you must follow
the teachings of Christ. Period

>the things you say about abortion being murder follow the Catholic hierarchy's
>point of view.  But, when it comes down to the crux of it, they are merely
>human just like the rest of us, and none of them know any better than we
>do what it means to truly be a good Christian.  Only Christ knows that, and
   Once again, they are human, but God is not. God has told us to defend our
weakened members, and deny NO ONE the right to live. We shall not judge against
any one else in our society, regardless of their political, financial, social
or physical stature. Please remember that.

>I doubt that any of us will discover it until we've shuffled off this mortal
>coil.  
   Ahhh, so you DO believe in God? How contradictory of you. 

>I know that not all devout Catholics (as I'm sure you see yourself) are as
>exclusionary as you.  One of my closest and dearest friends is a Catholic
>born and raised, and an adamant pro-lifer, but she would never belittle
>someone else's faith in the way you have just done.  I (as one of those 
   I belittle no one's faith. I judge no one but myself. Howeve,r I 
WILL NOT allow the Catholic faith to be misrepresented by a radical 
group of individuals who insist on referring to themselves as Catholic,
yet do not feel the need or justification to defend their morals in the
eyes of God. It is okay for a Catholic to sin, but to willingly sin in
defiance of the word of God is a different matter...

>rather controversial anti-abortion but pro-choice Christians who is used to
>having people like you deny my right to calling myself a Christian) accept 
    I can't say I know enough abou;all entities of the Christian faith, so
I cannot judge the statement of a "pro-choice Christian" but there is no
such thing as a "pro choic catholic". NONE. Sorry, Bzzzzttt, you lose. 
I am not judging another human being by saying this. God tells us. 
And you know what? It makes sense...

>her beliefs, just as she accepts mine.  We know that we will never agree
>on our stances, and both of us work to further our own viewpoints.  I look
>up to her in many ways, and frequently am amazed by her conviction, her
>gentleness, and the depth of her faith.  BUT, she would *never* dream of
>telling me that I was not a true Christian.  The only one who has the 
>right to do that is God. 
   Read the bible again, and you'll see that he does. 


>You believe that abortion is murder.  Fine.  I tend to agree with you.  
>However, please do not belittle our--yes, "our", yours and mine--religion
>by denying somebody else the right to call themself Catholic just because
>their views do not correspond to yours.

   Eloquently spoken, yet I am afraid I cannot agree, nor can the church.
One of the Kennedy's tried to be a Christian who believes in divorce and
remarriage... Well, the Catholic church won't marry him. He has to go 
elsewhere for the services. you know why? You can't have the best of both
worlds. It is hard to be superficially content, and spiritually content
simultaneously. You ARE a Catholic, or you AREN"T. 
   steve
-- 
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