From: nabil@cae.wisc.edu (Nabil Ayoub)
Subject: Re:      Greek Fathers
Organization: U of Wisconsin-Madison College of Engineering
Date: 15 Sep 92 13:58:25 CDT

In article <CHRISTIA%92091500010177@ASUACAD.BITNET> JEK@NIHCU.BITNET writes:
>Nabil Ayoub, having read my Library Essay on "Sola Scriptura,"
>complains that I call St. Athanasius Greek. Let me elaborate.
>

[ explanation deleted ]

Your explanation is quite logical. Maybe to avoid ambiguity, it would
be better to use Eastern/Western. Indeed the difference in language (Greek
vs. Latin) made communications a bit difficult between the two camps. 
In a previous church history discussion, someone told me "If there was
enough communcation, at the time of Martin Luther, he would have become
Orthodox!!".

>     Athanasius wrote in Greek. He lived in Alexandria in Egypt. I
>state this explicitly in my capsule biography of him, which you seem
>to have overlooked.  If you are going to complain because I call him

Nope, I read it.

>a Greek Father when he did not in fact live in Greece, why do you
>stop there? Chrysostom was from Antioch.  Basil and Gregory of

I was just using it as an example.

>Nazianzus were from Cappadocia. Now Pope Gregory was of Old Roman
>stock. But Jerome was born at Strido in Dalmatia, and Augustine near
>Carthage in Africa. Ambrose was born in Trier (Treves) not far from
>modern Luxembourg, but I am not sure that his father was not
>Italian. Thus, none of my "Greek Doctors" are from Greece, and only
>half, perhaps only a quarter, of my "Latin Doctors" are from Latium
>or even from Italy.

OK, OK.

>
>(Sorry to go on at such length, but I tend to get defensive when
>someone calls me an illiterate.)

Well, I did not mention or imply 'illiteracy' at all. It was not 
clear enough. That is all! I apologize if 'illitercay' was implied
in any sense.

>
>I must confess that I do not see how Acts 20:35 supports your cause.
>You are trying to show that there are sayings of Jesus not found in
>the Scriptures. You give an example of one found in Acts but not in
>the Gospels. Are you saying that the book of Acts is not part of the
>Scriptures?

No Acts is a part of Scriptures. Again I will explain the logic.

* Acts 20:35 show that there are unrecorded teachings of Christ (in Gospels).
* Not everything Christ said is recorded in the Bible.
* Teachings that are unrecorded were passed orally (Tradition).
* Therefore the *concept* of Tradition is Biblically supported.

>
>The relevant question, as I see it is not, "Did Jesus ever say
>anything not recorded for us in the Scriptures?" but rather, "Do we
>have any knowledge of anything He said from some source other than
>the Scriptures?" Let us stick for the moment to quotations. Do you
>know of any sentence or paragraph attributed to Him, not found in
>the Holy Scriptures, which you believe to be an accurate report of
>something He said, and if so, please quote it for us, and tell us
>how you learned of it, and what is the basis of your confidence?

What I proved from Acts 20:35 (plus other verses) is the fact that the
concept of Traditon existed from the First Century. Having established
this concept, in addition to the fact the the action of the Holy Spirit
did not stop at the end of Acts (i.e. it was/is a continuous process), 
then I have confidence and faith in the Church that whatever the Church's
founding Fathers have said, is being delivered to us now after 2000
years as-is, be it the Bible, Sacrements, Writings of the Church Fathers,
etc... Once one loses faith in the Church, s/he will start to have
doubts about Tradition, Sacrements, and even the Bible itself. So my
basis of confidence is my belief that the Church is guided by the Holy
Spirit all the time so it cannot go astray and will remain orthodox.

Irene pasi

Nabil
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