HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: sourada@iastate.edu (Steven D Ourada)
Subject: Re: Other Bucky stuff: Critical Path
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames IA
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 18:26:48 GMT

In <BuEKzq.CuH@csn.org> van@teal.csn.org (Claude W. Van Horn) writes:

>I just love to read stuff written by Fuller.  the multi-hyphenated-
>language and high-sounding terminology is unique.  I picked up
>Critical Path about 5 years ago, and fell in love with his way of 
>putting things.

He is quite expressive, once you get used to the style. At first, I
thought he was just attempting to sound high-minded, but he really does
use his unique language to get more precision out of English.

>I was a bit upset with his ideas (which sounded socialistic to me) but
>as we are continuing to produce more goods with less effort -- and as
>the world seems to be starting to settle into a more co-operativ frame
>of mind -- I was going to re-read the book and see if I still feel that 
>the ideas were too far to the left.

I don't really see his ideas as socialistic (although, mind you, being
socialistic is not necessarily a bad thing...). For example, he says 
that individual should recieve the fruits of their labors, whatever work
they do that they are now not required to do.

Oooops, I wanted to make a point to cooperation in my last post, but forgot.
Bucky's vision would benefit greatly from, and may only be possible with,
a lot of cooperation. As he repeats many times in his works, non-material
wealth (knowledge, technology, etc.) can only grow. Implicit in this 
statement, though, is the assumption that everyone working to increase
non-material wealth will share thier new knowledge. If there is undue
protectionism on the part of, say, scientists working for commercial
enterprises, then non-material wealth may actually decrease for the
general population. Cooperation, therefore, is necessary to keep the
science and technology moving forward, instead of standing still, moving
laterally.


>I started to read his book SINERGY, but got left behind in the 4th or 5th 
>chapter.  Anyone else do better??

I don't know if that can be read straight through. I think it was intended
as a refernce to his ideas about Synergy, rather than a sequential 
novel-like book.

                Later,   
                  Steven Ourada

-- 
-----------------
Steven Ourada  Member of the Students for Electronic Freedom
Ask me how Iowa State University is censoring my Usenet access!
sourada@iastate.edu     "can't casts no shadow" -- cummings
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Date:         Wed, 9 Sep 1992 15:01:18 EDT
              <GEODESIC@UBVM.BITNET>
From:         Robert Holder <robert@WHIPLASH.ER.USGS.GOV>
Subject:      SHOR NUFF IZ QWAAAT RAOUN HAIR

howdy partners.  just thought I'd shout into the silence.

About a year ago (jeez time flies) I mailed away to about
thirty dome manufacturers.  I got maybe fifteen replies
(these numbers are off the top of my head, it could be
more like 10 out of 15...?) but anyways, although this
is a BUCKY list, I thought it might be appropriate to offer
to produce a little listing of dome manufacturers and
addresses... gimme a coupla days.

no need tuh thank me ma'am, jus doin muh job.
been a raaal playzur.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~robert holder~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~       assistant unix troll   us geological survey      ~
~ robert@whiplash.er.usgs.gov  st petersburg florida usa ~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Date:         Thu, 10 Sep 1992 10:03:44 PDT
Reply-To:     Richard Everman <reverman@uci.edu>
              <GEODESIC@UBVM.BITNET>
From:         Richard Everman <reverman@KA.REG.UCI.EDU>
Subject:      Re: SHOR NUFF IZ QWAAAT RAOUN HAIR

Robert

Thanks for the message.  I had forgotten I was on this list!

Why is it so dead?  Is there no interest in alternate housing?  etc. etc.

I look forward to the posting.

Thanks again

Richard
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Date:         Fri, 11 Sep 1992 09:41:14 EDT
              <GEODESIC@UBVM.BITNET>
From:         Robert Holder <robert@WHIPLASH.ER.USGS.GOV>
Subject:      YOU'RE FIRED

upon re-reading my message, I realized that not everybody
will interpret my loose-quote of fuller the way I have.
It can also be interpreted in the traditional darwinian-
capitalistic way so popular in "free-enterprise" america.

I just wanted to come back and say that while I have many
doubts about capitalism being the BEST system, I think it
is the best thing going, and certainly (in my mind) beats
communism or socialism which clearly do not motivate the
individual to strive for their own perfection.

I am not so much a believer in capitalism and democracy
as I am an enemy of communism and dictatorships.  And I
have become bitter by the tidy numbing euphemisms I keep
hearing like how the homeless are people who "have fallen
through the cracks".

There is one thing I DO know:  my mind is just as imprisoned
as that of Michael Milken or anybody else I would prop up
as my enemy, and what I REALLY need is not a gun but a
MAP.  So far, I haven't heard anyone who is able to point
the way in a manner that enough people of differing beliefs
can agree to follow together.

OK, that's my clarifier, now back to the question: what
is Fuller's plan?

robert h
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Date:         Thu, 10 Sep 1992 07:40:55 MDT
              <GEODESIC@UBVM.BITNET>
From:         Robert Hickler <robert@SATURN.ACCELR8.COM>
Subject:      Re: Other Bucky stuff: Critical Path hAIR
              10, 92 8:03 am

>
> Since this is the only newsgroup I could find that talked about anything
> Bucky did,  I ws wondering if it was O.K. to discuss other of his theories
> besides the Geodesic Dome?
>
> I was particularly interested in the book Critical Path, and its aplication
> to the world situation we are now in, where people exceed usefull jobs.
>
> Any comments?
>
> Van!!
>
Go for it, please.  I find this group very engineering oriented while Bucky's
philosophical musings aren't discussed much.

 Robert Hickler                            Tel   (303) 863-8088
 Accelr8 Technology                        Email robert@accelr8.com
 Denver, CO USA                            Fax   (303) 863-1218
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From: garym@MAYA.ISIS.ORG (Gary Lawrence Murphy)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.geodesic
Subject: Fuller's History of Industrialization
Date: 12 Sep 92 16:54:06 GMT
              <GEODESIC@UBVM.BITNET>
Organization: Maya Relief Foundation, Ottawa
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In <92Sep11.100828edt.9604@mail.uunet.ca> robert@whiplash.er.usgs.gov writes:
>
> I just wanted to come back and say that while I have many
> doubts about capitalism being the BEST system, I think it
> is the best thing going, and certainly (in my mind) beats
> communism or socialism which clearly do not motivate the
> individual to strive for their own perfection.
>

How would you know?  Fuller maintained the capitalist, or more
precisely the industrialist method was by far the best, but he had
devestating documentation to suggest what we in the western world have
is _not_ either democratic or free-enterprise.  Read Grunch of Giants
and get back to us with your reactions ;-)

> I am not so much a believer in capitalism and democracy
> as I am an enemy of communism and dictatorships.  And I
> have become bitter by the tidy numbing euphemisms I keep
> hearing like how the homeless are people who "have fallen
> through the cracks".

This is, in Fuller's view, because we expect our governments to do
something about it.  This has never, in the history of mankind, been
the mandate of any government.  If the homeless bother you, what are
YOU doing about it.  Fuller shows precisely how one penniless
individual can make a difference.  The journey of a thousand miles
begins with a single step.

> There is one thing I DO know:  my mind is just as imprisoned
> as that of Michael Milken or anybody else I would prop up
> as my enemy, and what I REALLY need is not a gun but a
> MAP.  So far, I haven't heard anyone who is able to point
> the way in a manner that enough people of differing beliefs
> can agree to follow together.

According to the stats presented at the WorldGame I attended last
year, a mere one-quarter of the world military expenditures for that
year would, if equitably distributed, give every one of the 5 billion
members of humanity a lifestyle Donald Trump would envy.  Do that, and
you will have a lot more agreement in the world --- it is hard to
negotiate with a man when he is hungry, harder still when his children
are starving.

> OK, that's my clarifier, now back to the question: what
> is Fuller's plan?

Read Ideas and Integrities or the Operating Manual for Spaceship
Earth. It is all still possible, but only by personal initiative.


--
Gary Lawrence Murphy -- garym@maya.isis.org -- (613) 230-6255
       --------------------------------------------
   "The present moment is a powerful goddess." - Goethe
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Date:         Fri, 11 Sep 1992 09:17:14 EDT
              <GEODESIC@UBVM.BITNET>
From:         Robert Holder <robert@WHIPLASH.ER.USGS.GOV>
Subject:      Get back to work, you!!

peter gabriel (in the song "don't give up") said,

in this proud land we grew up strong
we were wanted all along
i was taught to fight taught to win
i never thought i would fail

no fight left or so it seems
i am a man whose dreams have all deserted
  .
  .
  .
for every job, so many men
so many men no one needs

and this expresses the same sentiment.  I have only
read the first few pages of critical path, but that
statement, (paraphrase) "we now have resources and
the technical ability as humans to feed and house
the population of the planet.  Since we are able to
do that, the fact that we are not doing it is due to
the decisions we have made about what is important to
us".

i looked at that book briefly at a friends house, and
i was interested in what fuller proposed as solutions
but never did get to read that part (!).

can someone (or all) who have read the book give their
brief recollection and assessment of fullers solutions
to the world have/have-not problem?  thanks.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~robert holder~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~       assistant unix troll   us geological survey      ~
~ robert@whiplash.er.usgs.gov  st petersburg florida usa ~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Date:         Tue, 15 Sep 1992 10:17:02 EDT
              <GEODESIC@UBVM.BITNET>
From:         Robert Holder <robert@WHIPLASH.ER.USGS.GOV>
Subject:      Free Enterprise

upon re-reading my message of yesterday, I would like to
add that I believe free enterprise (the setup where individuals
personally take the risks and personally reap the rewards) is
a very good system, in terms of promoting efficiency and
cutting waste.  maybe I'm wrong here.

I have seen several posts here which say that it's hard
to get workers to care for anything but their own benefits.
It seems that human tendancy would make for a predictable,
reproducable avenue for changing your workers.  Find out what
they REALLY want, then only give it to them when they do what
YOU really want.  I'm sure it's not so simple in practice, but
my overwhelming feeling is "what do you expect them to care
about?  your benefit?"  If they get a stake in the enterprise,
(share of ownership, and therefore profits and liability/culpability)
they will begin to care more about its success.

I would also like to temper my remarks about "The Rich", an often
maligned group.  I have known some rich people who were very
horrible people, and I have known some well-off people who were
very, very admirable people.  Most of the truly rich ($1 mil net
worth or greater) people I have met have been very selfish
insensitive people, but that is just my personal experience.
It's not the money that bothers me, it's the attitude.

HOWEVER, I believe that given the REAL WORLD CONSTRAINTS
involved, I think that entreprenuers are vital to our social
health, and if they are successful, I think that means they
are GENERALLY doing something right, as far as the society-
creature is concerned.

there, I just wanted to clear that up, sorry about all the
tangential issues...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~robert holder~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~       assistant unix troll   us geological survey      ~
~ robert@whiplash.er.usgs.gov  st petersburg florida usa ~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~VISUALIZE CLOSE AIR SUPPORT~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.geodesic
From: van@teal.csn.org (Claude W. Van Horn)
Subject: Other Bucky stuff: Critical Path hAIR
Organization: Colorado SuperNet, Inc.
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 08:03:21 GMT

Since this is the only newsgroup I could find that talked about anything
Bucky did,  I ws wondering if it was O.K. to discuss other of his theories
besides the Geodesic Dome?

I was particularly interested in the book Critical Path, and its aplication
to the world situation we are now in, where people exceed usefull jobs.

Any comments?

Van!!
From: van@teal.csn.org (Claude W. Van Horn)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.geodesic
Subject: Re: Other Bucky stuff: Critical Path
Date: 11 Sep 92 07:33:26 GMT
Organization: Colorado SuperNet, Inc.

I just love to read stuff written by Fuller.  the multi-hyphenated-
language and high-sounding terminology is unique.  I picked up
Critical Path about 5 years ago, and fell in love with his way of 
putting things.

I was a bit upset with his ideas (which sounded socialistic to me) but
as we are continuing to produce more goods with less effort -- and as
the world seems to be starting to settle into a more co-operativ frame
of mind -- I was going to re-read the book and see if I still feel that 
the ideas were too far to the left.

I started to read his book SINERGY, but got left behind in the 4th or 5th 
chapter.  Anyone else do better??

Van!!n!!
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Date:         Fri, 11 Sep 1992 20:56:25 -0400
              <GEODESIC@UBVM.BITNET>
From:         Future World Leader!! <SWENSONE@ACFCLUSTER.NYU.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Other Bucky stuff: Critical Path hAIR

Please expand on your reasoning.  Why do you believe what you believe about
this utopian vision?  I would like to read some empirical evidence which
supports your beliefs.

Thank you.


----8=========>---------------*
eric swenson
swensone@acfcluster.nyu.edu
----8=========>---------------*
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Date:         Thu, 10 Sep 1992 10:40:43 PDT
Reply-To:     Richard Everman <reverman@uci.edu>
              <GEODESIC@UBVM.BITNET>
From:         Richard Everman <reverman@KA.REG.UCI.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Other Bucky stuff: Critical Path hAIR

Van

Sorry, but I have not read Critical Path; however, I think he would have trouble
defining what a usefull job is.  I  made the mistake once of telling someone
what I thought of manual labor.  He spent the better part of an hour telling be
all the benefits of working outdoors, toning the body, etc.  (I still don't
think digging ditches is a meaningful job -- but, other people do!)

So the issue may not be that ".. people exceed usefull jobs." but that people do
not feel it is their responsibilty to create a job they feel is useful.

Richard


> I was particularly interested in the book Critical Path, and its aplication
> to the world situation we are now in, where people exceed usefull jobs.
>
> Any comments?
>
> Van!!
From: van@teal.csn.org (Claude W. Van Horn)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.geodesic
Subject: Re: Fuller's History of Industrialization
Date: 13 Sep 92 23:22:28 GMT
Organization: Colorado SuperNet, Inc.

In article <GEODESIC%92091314490480@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> RHYSLING@PHOENIX.BITNET (THE END IS NIE!) writes:
>Thank-You G[C[C[C Murphy...
>
> I, too, would like to see (whatch my spelling) Imperical evidence of
> functioning Capatalism.... I't don't work so hot for me...
>
> And what is all this buisness with seperating Comunism and Democracey?
> I would pay money for a ticket on a boat like that, given a life
> preserver.
I am a strong believer in capatalism, it has worked fine with me (no I am not
rich, but I am comfortable).  I get a great deal of pleasure out of doing a 
job well, working hard, being usefull to my clients - employers - whatever.

Since I am now "the boss", I have learned to my great regret that there are 
few around with the work ethic my partner and I seem to have accidentally
developed.  It seems that in most strata, people are interested in mainly
what kind of benefits they can "get" rather than what kind of benefits they
can "earn".

I know people in nearly every profession that share this old fashoned work
ethic, I passed it on to two of my three kids, and it is the kind of ethic
that would stand up well in the "critical path" view of utopia.  I would be 
working, sharing, ignoring my family for my clients (well, everyone has 
*some* problems) and generating ideas to help businesses succeed whether
I earned extra stuff for it or not.  I also know many people who consider
mine a stupid, old-fashoned attitude that earns the disrespect it gets from
much of today's work culture.

The part of Critical Path that bugs me is that when I see people willing to 
let others support them without *any* desire to participate in activities
beneficial to society -- in fact some are even willing to *hurt* society and
still feel they have earned a welcome place in it -- I get upset.  These people
do exist.  They are just a portion of the current "welfare" society.  Many
in that system seek and desire employment.  Many are unable to work due to 
physical or medical reasons.  These latter catagories do not bother me.

I have known mothers on welfare who starve their kids, use the ADC money up
on clothes and booze to attract more men.  I have seen fathers rescue these kids from the situation - providing food, clothing, love and then well meaning social workers find the child and put them back in the mother's care.  I have seen
at least 3 situations like this out of 10 or 12 welefare situations I know about.

I just feel that the world needs to have some kind of a reward and punishment system so that behaviors that benefit society will be encouraged.  Critical Path
did not seem to have a system for this.  If everyone was as community consious as  Fuller, and the members of the internet community, and others wanting to take
a helpfull roll in the improvement of the world, there would be plenty of 
everything for all.  How would other readers of this topic - and readers of Critical Path, deal with these problems.

Van!!
>
From: Gary.Murphy@SOFTWARE.MITEL.COM (Gary Murphy)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.geodesic
Subject: Dome homes (unNatural Space? ;-))
Date: 11 Sep 92 17:16:58 GMT
              <GEODESIC@UBVM.BITNET>
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Reply-To: garym@maya.isis.org

This is not an endorsement, as I am most pleased with the package I
received from Natural Spaces (and thanks, Tom, for that price
comparison!), but in the interest of completeness, the following list
was recently distributed over the misc.rural newsgroup:

Dome Homes

    Monterey Domes
    Riverside, CA

    Dome Creations
    Las Vegas, NV

    The Big Outdoors People
    26600 Fallbrook Ave.
    Wyoming Industrial Park
    Wyoming, MN 55092
    612-462-1011

    Catherdralite Domes
    820 Bay Ave, Suite 302
    Capitola, CA 95010
    408-0462-2210

    Domes America, Inc.
    6 S. 771 Western Ave
    Clarendon Hills, IL 60514
    800-323-5548

    Domes and Homes, Inc.
    PO Box 365
    Brielle, NJ 08730
    215-825-8290

    Dome Home Systems, Inc.
    Route 2, Box 247A
    Reedsburg, WI 53959
    608-524-4555

    Free Space Geodesics
    7094 N. Harrison Ave, Suite 165
    Pinedale, CA 93650
    209-431-8670

    Geodesic Domes, Inc.
    10290 Davison Rd.
    Davison, MI
    313-653-2383

    Polydome
    3020 North Park Way
    San Diego, CA 92104
    714-574-1400

    Synapse Domes
    PO Box 554
    Lander, WY 82520
    307-332-5773, -4117

    Timberline Geodesics
    2015 Blake St.
    Berkeley, CA 94704
    415-849-4481

Gary Lawrence Murphy - Gary.Murphy@software.mitel.COM - (613) 592-2122 x3709
        "But what if there _were_ such things as past lives?"
    "Close your eyes.  Notice how dark it becomes. Open your eyes.
                          What do you see?"
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Date:         Thu, 10 Sep 1992 22:45:33 -0400
              <GEODESIC@UBVM.BITNET>
From:         Future World Leader!! <SWENSONE@ACFCLUSTER.NYU.EDU>
Subject:      Re: SHOR NUFF IZ QWAAAT RAOUN HAIR

Thank ya' pardner.

My eyes have a hankerin' fer some rattlesnake snew stew cooked beneath the
shadow of a brilliant white dome.

lovingly,

eric swenson
swensone@acfcluster.nyu.edu
menudo@well.sf.ca.us
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Date:         Thu, 10 Sep 1992 10:23:30 PDT
              <GEODESIC@UBVM.BITNET>
From:         Steve Cary <cary@SCRIPPS.EDU>
Subject:      Domes to replace mobile Homes?

With all the movement by the various levels of government to either
ban or severely restrict mobile homes in Southern Florida (post-Andrew),
I was wondering if the various dome manufacturers have looked upon
this as a way to expand their marketplace??

I would think an inexpensive dome would be an admirable replacement and
far more wind resistant than a mobile home...

Just a stray thought on the commute home last night....

	-Steve Cary
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Date:         Sun, 13 Sep 1992 11:40:10 PDT
              <GEODESIC@UBVM.BITNET>
From:         THE END IS NIE! <RHYSLING@PHOENIX.BITNET>
Subject:      RE: Fuller's History of Industrialization

Thank-You G[C[C[C Murphy...

You said what I wished to, but could not find all the words for...

Sinsinct I am not.

However , I would ad (nausium), a bit to the phylisophical fray...

 To point at Socialism, or Capatialism, or Comuenism, and say "oooww bad!"
 and denounce it in fear, sighting how-bad-it-is in places with those
 systems, is like (yes, another week analogy) the contractor who saw
 the leek problems a friend was having with a Dome and said "woooo, bad
 magic, never will work, I would never live in one"...

 Which is too say, any Idea, nomatter how good, can be counted on to be
 rolly screwed up or abuesed those who are inclined to.

 I, too, would like to see (whatch my spelling) Imperical evidence of
 functioning Capatalism.... I't don't work so hot for me...

 And what is all this buisness with seperating Comunism and Democracey?
 I would pay money for a ticket on a boat like that, given a life
 preserver.

 We did not junk religion (smile when you say that) with that wonderfull
 Spanish Inquisition, however much we would like too...

 I think the dome as a nifty shelter for humanity suffers from some of the
 same symptomes as those not-so-niftly exicueted social programs...

 "Ya, Orvill, ya had it, I know...just a little more speed...one less
  mountain and if this weren't hunting season that sucker would have
  sored like a bird."

 Meaning that if condictions are right, and you did't overlook somthing,
 and nobody threw a wrench in the works for ya, you can prabably make it
 work, probably...

 Ether way, when it does't work, THEY will still say "I told you so,
 never get me up in one of those..."

 Rhysling@Euclid.Humboldt.edu
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