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SCA Digest                  Mon,  7 Sep 92       Volume 5 : Issue 609 

Today's Topics:
                        parking//diesel pests
                        Not two knight, honey.
                      Smelly steel wagons at Pe
                      Use of Houndstooth in garb
                          Misunderstandings
                            consort gender
                     Another Birth Announcement!
            Late Night Noises (was Pennsic Land Allotment)
                       Pennsic Land Allocation
                    Great diesel beasts at Pennsic
                          awards recognition
                       Pennsic Land Allocation
              cc:Mail SMTPUUCP 2.0 Undeliverable Message
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1992 22:11:54 GMT
From: "Steven J. Vaughan-Nichols" <sjvn@access.digex.com>
Organization: Express Access Public Access UNIX, Greenbelt, Maryland USA
Subject: parking//diesel pests
Message-Id: <1992Sep6.221154.315@access.digex.com>
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu

> I was told that certain women camping near the road traditionally 
> would take theiir shirts off when trunks honked for them

Sounds like a SCA urban legend to me.  Anyone with trucker friends
who can find the real answer?  

Alexis Stephanovich Monomach
(Who camps on Tu-Chux hill and is very tried of being woke up at 4
in the morning.)

-- 
Steven J. Vaughan-Nichols
sjvn@access.digex.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1992 00:29:13 GMT
From: Corun MacAnndra <corun@access.digex.com>
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Subject: Not two knight, honey.
Message-Id: <1992Sep7.002913.4820@access.digex.com>
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu

In article <1314@niktow.canisius.edu> salley@niktow.canisius.edu (David Salley) writes:

>I'm still curious, _two_ knightings??  Story please?  Inquiring minds want 
>to know.  ;-) ;-) ;-) 
>                                                       - Dagonell

The way I heard the story (and we all know how stories grow and change), is
that Edward was knighted twice by different kings.

In service,

-- 
===========================================================================
    Corun MacAnndra     |      But what if this hadn't been
  Dark Horde by birth   |        a rhetorical question?
    Moritu by choice    |                            C. Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 03:09:53 GMT
From: Corun MacAnndra <corun@access.digex.com>
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Subject: Smelly steel wagons at Pe
Message-Id: <1992Sep3.030953.16870@access.digex.com>
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu

In article <1992Sep3.001436.19885@pbhya.PacBell.COM> whheydt@PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt) writes:
>In article <715471341.F00001@blkcat.UUCP> Craig.Vaughan@p365.f342.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Craig Vaughan) writes:
>>
>>  AP> M'Lord.... I for one took no offense whatsoever at the placement of
>>  AP> the parking lot.  Indeed, een tho many a gas dragon did snort down the
>>  AP> path not 5 FEET from my head at night as I lay asleep, I noticed them
>>  AP> not.  I DID, however, take great umbridge at the blasting horns of the
>>  AP> great diesel beasts lumbering on the interstate!  I was unfortunate
>>  AP> enough to be assigned not far from that awful road, and more than once
>>  AP> I was actively planning my distances and angles for a crossbow shot
>>  AP> right into a semi.  (Wonder what they'd think when they finally
>>  AP> noticed an arrow sticking out?)  I do wish there were some way to
>>  AP> silence those beasties' horns! In your service, Lord Ailean Mac an
>>
>>In our barony's camp, much thought was given as to how to construct a sound
>>activated ballista...
>
>Caltrops are period . . .  :-)

Also somewhat indiscriminatory. How about a nice catapult with laser
guided rocks. ;-)

In service,

Corun

P.S. I wonder how many truck drivers are in the SCA, and how many are on
the Rialto? Just a nervous query.


-- 
===========================================================================
    Corun MacAnndra     |      But what if this hadn't been
  Dark Horde by birth   |        a rhetorical question?
    Moritu by choice    |                            C. Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 03:52:49 GMT
From: Corun MacAnndra <corun@access.digex.com>
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Subject: Use of Houndstooth in garb
Message-Id: <1992Sep3.035249.19321@access.digex.com>
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu

In article <9209021208.aa11631@mc.lcs.mit.edu> MKNETTEL@kentvm.kent.EDU ("Mary Knettel ", Genevieve du Vent Argent) writes:
>I've asked a few weaver friends about the documentability of
>using cloth woven in a houndstooth pattern for garb, particularly
>early 500-800's Britain & Ireland.
>
>All I've gotten so far is that houndstooth is a type of twill
>weave and might have been used but nothing more conclusive than
>that.
>
>Has anyone run across references to houndstooth or know where I
>should look?  Also, is there some other name to describe this
>twill pattern?
>
>I found some lovely wool houndstooth fabric in white & black, red & black,
>and green & black, but didn't want to buy it just because I liked it!
>Though if it goes on sale, I can always make a jacket out of it!
>
>Thanks for your help.
>
>-Genevieve du Vent Argent, Marche of Gwyntarian, MidRealm
> Mary Knettel, KSU, Kent, OH  mknettel @ kentvm.kent.edu

My Lady I bid you greetings (and big hugs).

I was speaking with a member of my Canton this evening and she mentioned
that the British Museum had commissioned a reproduction of a sword found
at Sutton Hoo. According to her the blade was a houndstooth pattern of
interlaced iron. I know this isn't cloth, but at least they were using
the pattern on something in the 7th century.

BTW, I'm sure I could find a use for the red and black pattern. ;-)

In service,

Corun



-- 
===========================================================================
    Corun MacAnndra     |      But what if this hadn't been
  Dark Horde by birth   |        a rhetorical question?
    Moritu by choice    |                            C. Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 01:36:40 GMT
From: Corun MacAnndra <corun@access.digex.com>
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Subject: Misunderstandings
Message-Id: <1992Sep4.013640.19174@access.digex.com>
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu

My Lords and Ladies of the Rialto greetings from Corun.

As so often happens on a medium where eye contact and body language are
completely lacking misunderstandings occur. Such is the case in a pair 
of missives between myself and Master Arval. I have received private email
from Arval and one staunch defender of his, and another from someone who
was concerned that a major flamefest was about to occur. In order to stem
the tide of more inquiries into this matter, let me tell you that Arval
and I have been in conversation and the misunderstandings have been cleared
up. I will not go into detail as it is not pertinent. I will thank those
who thought well enough to consult with us privately, and I appreciate
your efforts, your candor, and your consideration. Rest assured that Arval
and I have made nice, which is as it should be. Thank you again.

In service,

Corun
-- 
===========================================================================
    Corun MacAnndra     |      But what if this hadn't been
  Dark Horde by birth   |        a rhetorical question?
    Moritu by choice    |                            C. Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 16:53:11 GMT
From: The Elf-Lad <thom@access.digex.com>
Organization: Express Access Public Access UNIX, Greenbelt, Maryland USA
Subject: consort gender
Message-Id: <1992Sep2.165311.11973@access.digex.com>
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu

bq434@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Michael A. Chance) writes:

>Several other people have pointed out that there are no recorded
>examples of same-sex heads-of-state in period, and pointed out Bthe
>historically vaild alternatives.  I imagine that this fact, combined
>with the concerns of the appearance of official approval/disapproval
>were the main factors in the BoD's decision on the gender of landed
>nobility.

So there are recorded examples of people fighting each other with
weapons of rattan and duct tape whilst wearing armor made of plastic?
In period women regularly fought? Crowns were handed down by right 
of arm *only* and not by right of birth? Peers were created because
of their ability to organize tournaments or write prettily? Kings
and queens became dukes and duchesses after sitting on the throne
a couple of times?

I regret the sarcasm, but I get steamed whenever I hear SCAdians
appealing to historical accuracy as an excuse for bigotry and
homophobia. If we recreated the middle ages truly, there'd be an
awful lot of peasants, and a great deal of women sitting on the
sidelines doing nothing. It's not an option; why then is relegating
gay men and lesbians to invisible status sanctioned?

People who mistrust/dislike the SCA are not going to alter their
opinions just because the BOD tries to appease them by tacitly
approving their hatred. We may as well make the Society a place
that welcomes those who *do* want to participate in it.



-- 
Thom Watson, the Elf-Lad         elf-lad@access.digex.com <-----preferred
                                 elf-lad@aol.com         elflad0@glib.org
                                 thom.watson@p924.f70.n109.z1.fidonet.org
                                 GEmail=T.WATSON7

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 00:22:58 GMT
From: Pete - Toonatic - Boulay <pjb4288@ultb.isc.rit.edu>
Organization: Rochester Institute of Technology
Subject: Another Birth Announcement!
Message-Id: <1992Sep8.002258.18036@ultb.isc.rit.edu>
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu

Yes...yet another in the recent abundance of births...

Alexander Joseph Boulay
10 pounds 8 ounces 22" long
2:30pm on 9/5/92
at Strong Memorial Hospital...

My nephew, and a handsome one at that!

Lorin Francis Renaud
Elder Town Crier
Ravensnest, Thescorre, East.

-- 
Peter J. Boulay --17 Split Rock Road-Pittsford, NY 14534-The ToonAddict!
Email should be sent only to PJB4288@ritvax.isc.rit.edu
Disclaimer: You don't like what I'm writing? Oh well.
"Well shut my mouth wide open!"- Tiny Toons HISMV

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 14:11:26 GMT
From: Corun MacAnndra <corun@access.digex.com>
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Subject: Late Night Noises (was Pennsic Land Allotment)
Message-Id: <1992Sep2.141126.3420@access.digex.com>
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu

In article <16856769E.00030929@ysub.ysu.edu> 00030929@ysub.ysu.edu writes:
>Second only to the people I meet, it is the late-night "noises" at Pennsic that
>I lik.  The sound of the drums, zills and jinglies, is relaxing.  Of course,
>I've often fallen asleep to the sweet sound of bagpipes.
> 
>This year I stayed with Peacemakers.  There was a bardic circle in camp one
>night (which I am told was a stunning gathering).  While I could not hear all
>of the stories/songs, I fell asleep much easier to the sound of what was
>going on than if it had been quiet.  I am told that there were well over fifty
>people there, and it went on 'til after 3 am.

It had been stated in the Pennsic pamphlet everyone got at Troll that a quiet
time was imposed beginning at 1:00 a.m. Apparently the circle didn't disturb
anyone in nearby camps. This is good since it allowed the bards to enjoy
themselves but not at someone else's expense. There was one very bad incident
with drumming at 3:00 a.m. It seems that Saide's encouraged some drummer to
play in order to "drum up" some late night business. Since Saide's was very
close to the Cooper's house, it woke Betty from a sound sleep. She then went
charging down there like a small but effective hurricane and threatened to
close Saide down. This is the kind of wroth we don't want to incur. Mac wasn't
bothered, but then according to Betty, he can sleep through anything. ;-)

>I have heard of attempts (at other events) to keep the late-night camps
>separated from the quieter camps.  Anyone know if this would work at Pennsic?
>I've never heard whether the attempts were successful in any regard at all.

I think trying to separate the noisy from the quiet camps would be impossible
at best. There's already too much dissension on who gets how much land and
where to throw this particular wrench into the works.

In service,

Corun

-- 
===========================================================================
    Corun MacAnndra     |      But what if this hadn't been
  Dark Horde by birth   |        a rhetorical question?
    Moritu by choice    |                            C. Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 18:49:17 GMT
From: Corun MacAnndra <corun@access.digex.com>
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Subject: Pennsic Land Allocation
Message-Id: <1992Sep2.184917.21810@access.digex.com>
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu

In article <1992Sep2.152657.29088@progress.com> schuldy@progress.COM (Mark Schuldenfrei) writes:
>Dave.Aronson@f120.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Dave Aronson) writes:
>                             (A notebook PC at Troll could work wonders, both for
>  this and other applications!  I *heard* that one WAS used at XXI but I didn't
>  see it; anybody know for sure, and if so, what for?)
>
>There may have been others, but Herald's Point used one for organizing the
>three daily cries.  I presume a computer of some sort was used to write
>the Pennsic Daily Tidings.  At Herald's Point, we intended to use a
>desktop, but it refused to boot.

We used computers at Troll lats year and this year. This year we were able
to install a small LAN (yes, Pennsic gets networked), and it worked quite
well. We were able to get well over fifty percent of the 8k+ waivers in the
database, which was then instrumental in looking up where people were camped
for purposes of security and such (ie. the fellow who had to call his seargent,
some of the folks whose cars were improperly parked, etc.) The data compiled
from this will be used next year to facilitate the entry of the waivers. If
you were at PWXXI, then all that will be needed will be use an update feature
and last year's record of you will be automatically input. This will cut down
the number of people who will have to volunteer for data entry.

BTW, I wish to take this time to thank all the people who helped us with
data entry, backups, and other sundry help. Your efforts were greatly
appreciated and we are grateful that you took time from your vacation to
help us. I believe we set a standard this year (I know it gained the Cooper's
seal of approval), and I hope that whoever chooses to be Datamage at PWXXII
will use what we've done as a guide. Nothing's perfect, and I know our setup
can be improved upon, but I feel we've made a tremendous start. Thanks also
to Rhea and Rufus and the Merchocrat staff for putting us in your trailer.
The airconditioning was a boon as was being closed off from the dust and
rain. I hope we weren't too much of a burden on you. Thanks to Epsilon for
writing an excellent database. This year we need to get you to Paradox. Let
me know if I can help in that.

>       Tibor (as if anyone *really* cared)

But Tibor, we *do* care. Really.

In service,

Corun

-- 
===========================================================================
    Corun MacAnndra     |      But what if this hadn't been
  Dark Horde by birth   |        a rhetorical question?
    Moritu by choice    |                            C. Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1992 00:44:55 GMT
From: Corun MacAnndra <corun@access.digex.com>
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Subject: Great diesel beasts at Pennsic
Message-Id: <1992Sep7.004455.5419@access.digex.com>
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu

In article <1992Sep2.140519.284@lrc.edu> hammond@lrc.edu writes:
>In article <1992Aug31.203734.21956@access.digex.com>, corun@access.digex.com (Corun MacAnndra) writes:
>> In article <1992Aug31.123211.16136@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu> carl@silver.lcs.mit.edu (Alexander of Kiev (mka Carl Alexander)) writes:
>>>John McGuire (John T Dillon) writes:
>>>>
>>>>  The great diesel beasts at Pennsic were an annoyance, bleating their 
>>>>challenge out in both daylight and darkness.  However blame not all of 
>>>>them as being unfriendly and malicious.  Most of them were blaring not to
>>>>awaken campers, but to express displeasure and alarm at the throng of smaller
>>>>dragons perched on the roadside, or in the road, peering into the camp.
>>>>
>>>I suspect the State of Pennsylvania would be happy to permit us to 
>>>engage in a roadside beautification project:  We could acquire a 
>>>bunch of saplings, of one of those fast-growing tree varieties that 
>>>various lumber companies have developed, and plant them in a fairly 
>>>close-packed row along the fence, as far up the embankment as the 
>>>State would permit.  If we did the planting during the war, there'd 
>>>be plenty of volunteer labour.  (We'd want to have the holes dug 
>>>beforehand, of course -- doing that by hand would be a little too 
>>>period for most people's taste -- but I suspect the Coopers own 
>>>a backhoe; if not, it wouldn't be that expensive to rent one for 
>>>a day or two.  Dropping the trees off a truck, setting them in 
>>>the holes, and filling in the holes wouldn't be a big deal for a 
>>>bunch of healthy young fighters.)  If we started off with 15-foot 
>>>saplings, it would do some good immediately, and probably make 
>>>the campground completely invisible from the highway by PW XXX.
>>>I for one would be willing to contribute both time and money to 
>>>such an effort; I suspect the Coopers would as well.  (For those 
>>>who object that we may not be at Coopers' Lake that much longer:
>>>I disagree, for a variety of reasons there's no point in going 
>>>into here.  But you're entitled to your opinion:  if you think 
>>>it would be a wasted effort, then don't contribute to the effort.)
>>> 
>>>I'm serious about this, and would like to know what other people 
>>>think.  (Can you tell I was camped on the Serengetti, too close 
>>>to I-79?)
>
>Seems like a great idea to me. I also was on the serengetti and had
>wondered at the continued noise from the adjacent through way.
>I don't know what my situation will be for nexe pennsic, but if I 
>am available I believe I can contribute some time to such a worthy project.
>
>                               Michael of Hammond
>                               from the soon to be (we hope)
>                               incipient Barony of Winding Waters,
>                               Kingdom of Atlantia

Actually, Michael, none of what you qouted here was by me. I think there were
too many headers. I left your entire message intact so you could see the >
symbols (what are those things called), and see that I was quoting Alexander
of Kiev who was quoting John McGuire. This has not been the first time this
has happened to me (the other was on another forum), and fortunately there
was nothing there that I did not agree with, so there is no harm done and
I'm not being misquoted as saying something really bad. ;-) Anyway, all I
can say is to be careful of the headers, and count the > symbols (I know they
must have some kind of name) to see who's quoting who. This must be a fairly
common occurence, and as I said, there was no harm done.

In service,

Corun
-- 
===========================================================================
    Corun MacAnndra     |      But what if this hadn't been
  Dark Horde by birth   |        a rhetorical question?
    Moritu by choice    |                            C. Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 03:45:05 GMT
From: Corun MacAnndra <corun@access.digex.com>
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Subject: awards recognition
Message-Id: <1992Sep3.034505.18714@access.digex.com>
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu

In article <3391@creatures.cs.vt.edu> jtn@nutter.cs.vt.edu (Terry Nutter) writes:
>Greetings to all, but especially Dorigen, from Angharad.
>
>Dorigen asked about requiring courtesy in peers:
>
>>A member of my order (Laurel) recently said to me that if we weren't going
>>to use that requirement, it should be removed, so we wouldn't all be (or
>>appear to be) hypocrites.  I don't think we should remove it; I think we
>>should start taking it seriously.
>
>I must be weird on this subject, because the issues here clearly seem very 
>tangled to many, but they seem straightforward to me.
>
>As Bertram pointed out a while back, what you reward you tend to see more
>of.  Our peers are our primary role models.  We may reward excellence in
>fighting, service or the "arts and sciences", or we may reward courtesy,
>or we may choose to reward (at least at the peerage level) only the 
>combination of one of the first with the second.
>
>If we give our highest awards for excellence in fighting, service, or A&S,
>and in doing so create ill-behaved peers, we may expect to see many more 
>ill-behaved fighters, autocrats, needleworkers, and so on.  If we give our
>highest awards for excellence in courtesy (or some other quality of 
>character) only, we may expect to have a hard time identifying the right
>people, and convincing ourselves we're not playing politics, and insofar
>as we succeed, we may expect to see more folk who demonstrate those qualities 
>but who may not apply them to fighting, or to service, or to A&S.
>
>If we reward only the combination, we get fewer peers, which means that
>it will be more obvious (it is already true) that the chances of any given
>SCAdian ever becoming a peer are very small; we also have a harder time 
>convincing ourselves that we are selecting well.  But we already suffer 
>from injustices; and by this route, I think we wind up with more of the 
>behaviors we would most like to see.
>
>It seems to me that the real question is whether those combinations 
>really are what we want, and if so, whether it is worth the costs to 
>encourage them.
>
>In Service to the Society,
>
>-- Angharad/Terry

First let me apologize for taking up bandwidth by leaving Angharad's message
intact, but there was nothing I could delete and still keep the content of
the reply intact.

I think we need to examine the role courtesy plays in the SCA. I ranted about
this in another thread, so I won't repeat my quotes from the OED here. There
is nothing so distasteful as someone who is deliberately discourteous, unless
it's a deliberately discourteous peer. As Angharad says, the peers are supposed
to be our role models, and if a lack of courtesy is displayed then that's
what the majority of people in the Society will end up emulating, perhaps
not knowing better. I will always maintain that Honour, Courtesy and Chivalry
are the backbone of the Society, and that all other things stem from there.
If we do not reward courtesy, we cannot in all conscience punish it's lack.

I have heard of Courts of Chivalry, and banishments and the like, and have
seen them as only a cursory handslapping during the period of someone's
reign, or more accuratly, six months. After that period the person's rights
are fully restored. I have never heard of an instance where someone's awards
were taken away from them, and certainly not permanently. I will admit that
I am not an old timer and have only been officially in the SCA since 1984, 
so there may be occurences of this with which I am not familiar. I speak only
from my own experiences, and will humbly accept correction.

My point is that courtesy must be something that we should expect of each
and every member of the Society regardless of whatever else they have done
in fighting, service, or A&S. Certainly we should not reward *solely* on
courtesy, but it must be integral to our very fibre. I have the highest
respect for peers who have won their awards through hard work and good deeds,
and only loathing for those who have bantered the Society for an award, or
been given one through political machinations, or who fight only to wear
a crown and wield a power that is non-existent as if they were in fact 
descended from royalty and it was God's will they should wear that crown.

It is courtesy that will keep people from taking more land than they need,
and will keep the cars in the propler parking lots. It is courtesy that
will be the measure of who we are as human beings. It is the lack of common
courtesy in the mundane world at large that brings many of us into the SCA
in the first place.

I'm sorry, this seems to have turned into an impassioned rant. I hope my
point has gotten across despite that. I also apologize to Angharad. I know
it's not considered good form for a mere Canton MOAS to disagree with one's
KMOAS. ;-) But it does add spice to life. Still, I remain,

In Service,

Corun



-- 
===========================================================================
    Corun MacAnndra     |      But what if this hadn't been
  Dark Horde by birth   |        a rhetorical question?
    Moritu by choice    |                            C. Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 20:53:50 GMT
From: Corun MacAnndra <corun@access.digex.com>
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Subject: Pennsic Land Allocation
Message-Id: <1992Sep1.205350.21307@access.digex.com>
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu

In article <BtwyKF.MyI@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca> aryk@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (A.J.S. Nusbacher) writes:
>In article <1992Aug31.042115.27413@access.digex.com> corun@access.digex.com (Corun MacAnndra) writes:
>
>>If you want  to be allowed to pay extra money for more camping space, then
>>you sould volunteer to be Autocrat and then you can set the rules according
>>to your personal agenda. I warn you though, Autocrats who do this are not
>>looked on favourably by the rest of the populace, and many of these may be
>>folk you will have to deal with locally for the rest of the time you're in
>>the SCA. 
>
>Interesting question.  I rather like the idea of an autocrat who volunteers
>from a sense of enlightened self-interest.  A sense of martyrdom shouldn't
>be the only possible reason to volunteer.

Aryk, let's not confuse "personal agenda" with "enlightened self-interest."
An Autocrat who sets rules that allow a fair and equitible sharing of land
would be working from enlightened self-interest, since they would have a
chance to set a standard that would benefit them in the future under another
Autocrat. Someone setting a rule that allows dishonest folk from buying up
more land than they really need and thereby screwing the populace at large
would be working from a personal agenda. This is all IMHO. Also, I never
said anything about martyrdom. Anyone working a job anywhere in the SCA
out of a sense of martydom should't be in that job. The same is true for
anyone working for an award, be Pelican, Laurel, Knighthood, etc. We should
be doing the jobs because they need doing and that competently. We should
then teach those jobs to the next generation of volunteers. It's not like
the Society can go out and hire professional Autocrats and historical teachers
so we can learn the things we want in order to play a more fun game. We
all are charged with the responsibility of passing on knowledge and good
works to the rest of the Society. I wish to learn more in a variety of fields
and be able to pass that knowledge on to others. I'm not a professional
teacher, but I like teaching. I've thought recently about going back to
school and getting a teaching degree. The gods know how much our education
system is in need of good teachers. Too bad the government can't see that
and bolster our educational system financially. Books, not bombs.

>Autocrats who do _anything_ are "not looked on favourably by the rest of the
>populace", and accusations that the Pennsic Autocrat has done things because
>of a personal agenda are common regardless of actual intentions.

I will agree with the last statment, but never with the first. I've known
many Autocrats who have done such splendid jobs that they are asked by
the populace of the local group to do it again. Your last statement is true
only because of the pettiness and self righteousness of so many people. 
People who would work from their own personal agenda for their own benefit
and noone else's. I don't think your own local Autocrats are going to think
much of our attitude toward them.

>The job of War Autocrat has traditionally been taken by somebody with a vast
>capacity for taking on work.  As such, the job has in the past been a gruel-
>ling one.  It would be impressive to see it taken on by somebody who is good
>at delegating responsibility.

You imply many things here.

1) All War Autocrats have a great capacity for work, and noone who doesn't
has never been War Autocrat. I've only been to seven Pennsics and have only
known the Autocrats of two, but a desire to do alot of work does not mean
a capacity for it.

2) The job of War Autocrat will become less grueling in the future. Not!

3) No War Autocrat has ever been good at delegating responsibility. I have
seen Autocrats delegate jobs, but the ultimate responsibility for anyone
volunteering to undertake any task of the magnitude of Pennsic belongs only
to that person and cannot be delegated. You are responsible for the actions
of those you delegate jobs to. When my household ran Security at PWXX we
bore the brunt of the actions of a few yahoos from other households who
volunteered to take shifts and summarily pissed off the populace of Pennsic.
In some cases we removed these people from jobs that would allow them to
interact with the populace and gave them something harmless to do like
lost and found paperwork or manning the base station radio.

The feeling I get from your comments is that you don't see the entire
picture of running Pennsic. I've tried to convey what I believe several
of the past War Autocrats would like to say themselves. If they did, they
would probably be met with derision and accused of making excuses or of
blowing their own horn. I also get the impression that you've never Auto-
crated and event or worked with an Autocrat. I hope I'm wrong. You've made
some rather learned comments on other threads, and I'd like to think you're
one who does, and not one who only benefits without doing.

In service,

Corun

-- 
===========================================================================
    Corun MacAnndra     |  The great thing about travel is getting to
  Dark Horde by birth   |   meet new people and see new places.
    Moritu by choice    |                            G. Khan

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 07 Sep 92 18:53:31 pst
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SCA Digest                  Mon,  7 Sep 92       Volume 5 : Issue 605 

Today's Topics:
                            SCA 2500 C.E.
                  Pentacles (was Re: consort gender)
              Using period words to refer to mundanities
              cc:Mail SMTPUUCP 2.0 Undeliverable Message
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 7 Sep 92 19:59:44 GMT
From: Josh Mittleman <mittle@watson.ibm.com>
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center
Subject: SCA 2500 C.E.
Message-Id: <1992Sep07.195944.33122@watson.ibm.com>
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu

Greetings from Arval!  

Bertram New Father drew an analogy between medieval tournaments and
American football.


> I wonder -- how far does the analogy of 
> 
>          Modern-football <==> Medieval-tourneys

Not very far, I think.  

Modern football is an entertainment for the masses; I know no evidence that
the medieval tournament as practiced in France, England, and the Lowlands,
attracted any audience from outside the nobility.

Modern football players are professionals, paid by wealthy owners to earn
them money.  In the medieval tournament, the weathy patrons took part in
the tournament, they didn't just sponsor it.  Indeed, by the late 14th
century, participation in the tournament was restricted to knights, and
eventually to knights descended from knights.  (On the other hand, there
were professionals on the tourney circuit, and it was a matter of prestige
(though not profit) for a patron to support the best tourneyers.)

The tournament was more intimately a part of noble culture, rather than
simply an entertainment.  In some manuals of chivalry, tournament combat
was considered one of the three venues for a knight to display his prowess
(after the Crusade and warfare).  A display of skill on the tourney field
could lead to recognition, position, rank, and power; when was the last
time you heard of a retired linebacker becoming CEO of Xerox?

Perhaps a more apt analogy for modern football is the Roman Circus.

===========================================================================
Arval Benicoeur                                       mittle@watson.ibm.com

 -----------------------------

Date: 7 Sep 92 19:47:27 GMT
From: Josh Mittleman <mittle@watson.ibm.com>
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center
Subject: Pentacles (was Re: consort gender)
Message-Id: <1992Sep07.194727.38856@watson.ibm.com>
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu

Greetings from Arval!  I had written:

> The swastika and the pentagram may not be registered in SCA armory
> because the corporation does not want to give its sanction to the use of
> these symbols which are intimately associated in the modern mind with
> mass murder.

Raedwynn asked for some clarification:

> I would like you to clarify just why you think the public associates
> "mass murder" with pentagrams? Weird things, bizarre cults, but I have
> never seen a pentacle get the kind of negative reaction one has to a
> swastika.

The Mason murders is one excellent example; there are others.  For example,
a few years ago the media was swamped with reports of a "Satanist cult"
operating across the US-Mexican border, kidnapping young men and women and
slaughtering them.  The pentacle figured heavily in their symbolism.  In
much of this country, the pentacle is seen as _the_ symbol of Satan and
evil.  In the media, it is uniformly associated with Satanism, and the
bloodiest sicko Satanist are always the ones used to illustrate the dangers
of Satanist cults.  I am well aware that the pentacle has other, peaceful
meanings, but the one most prevalent in the common imagery of modern
America is decidedly bloody.

> The society is not interested in whether or not it might give it's
> "sanction" to these symbols by allowing them to be displayed; it states
> quite clearly in the section of the Corpora on religious  freedom /
> tolerance that symbols may not be displayed which might be termed
> coercive, intolerant, etc. by anyone else. 

I'm afraid you've mis-remembered Corpora.  Corpora talks about religious
ceremonies & discrimination of the grounds of religion, but has nothing to
say about religious symbols.

The following passage is quoted from the Board's ruling on the use of
pentacles in SCA armory; if you like I will send you the entire ruling.  As
you see, the ruling has nothing to do with religion or religious symbols;
it has everything to do with whether or not the SCA, Inc. chooses to
sanction the display of the pentacle, and the possibility of damage to the
Society's reputation.

  The Board has a duty of care for the whole organization.  We heard from a
  number of people who have had problems in the communities because of
  perceptions of the SCA as not merely tolerating, but actively
  encouraging, various anti-social activities.  Again, the rightness or
  wrongness of their perceptions is not at issue; those perceptions are
  simply part of the larger environment within which the SCA must operate.
  We can reasonably expect that the SCA will come up against similar
  perceptions in the future, and we cannot reasonably expect outsiders to
  understand the subtleties of authority underlying 'registration,' which
  to them will inevitably imply official recognition, approval, and
  sanction. (quoted from the cover letter to the 4/91 Laurel Letter of
  Acceptances and Returns, which in turn quotes from a letter from the
  Board of Directors)

===========================================================================
Arval Benicoeur                                       mittle@watson.ibm.com

 -----------------------------

Date: 7 Sep 92 20:48:52 GMT
From: Barbara Nostrand <bnostran@ds5000.dac.northeastern.edu>
Organization: Northeastern University, Boston, MA. 02115, USA
Subject: Using period words to refer to mundanities
Message-Id: <7357@ds5000.DAC.Northeastern.edu>
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu

Gentles!

"car" spelled "carre" is a Middle English word derived from Norman
French and ultimately from Latin "carrus" which means cart.

"carriage" spelled "cariage" is also a Middle English word derived from Norman
French and ultimately derives from "carier" which means to carry.

Substitutes for "autocrat" differ according to the nature of the event.
For example, the "autocrat" of a scholae or university event might be
called "chancelor" ... interestingly enough, "chancelor" might be a good
replacement for "troll" since it derives from "cancellarius" meaning
"doorkeeper" in Late Latin.  "Chancelor" is spelled "chaunceler" in
Middle English.

"Steward" derives from Middle English < Old English "stigweard" from
"stig" (hall) and "weard" keeper.  Now it appears that the possibly
the best generic word for "autocrat" is pre-empted by the President
of SCA, Inc.  However, I do not see how this is necessarily so.  It
may still be possible to use the title as long as it is clear that
the "steward" in question is not the "steward" of the SCA.

Now for a minor exercise in reconstructive linguistics.  "gate"
derives from Middle English < Old English "geat".  Thus, "troll"
could possibly be replaced with "geatweard".

                                        Your Humble Servant
                                        Solveig Throndardottir
                                        Totally Ignorant

 -----------------------------

Date: Mon, 07 Sep 92 15:13:04 pst
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Message-Id: <9208077159.AA71590@smtpgate.ccmail.com>
To: SCA@mc.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: cc:Mail SMTPUUCP 2.0 Undeliverable Message

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Subject: SCA Digest V5 #603
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SCA Digest                  Sun,  6 Sep 92       Volume 5 : Issue 603 

Today's Topics:
                          Robin hood recast
                             Colored tape
                Schedule of events / Is there an FAQ?
               A thought about Rialto - "Guru" FAQ list
                Scottish Gaelic newspaper "Uinneagan"
                       Hello and some questions
                  bunny round and other weird words
                    Great diesel beasts at Pennsic
                   A thought about Rialto (2 msgs)
                    Great diesel beasts at Pennsic
                            consort gender
                    Great diesel beasts at Pennsic
                            consort gender
                           multiple titles
                          Baby Announcement!
             Multiple titles (was Edward Zifran of Gendy)
        safety for marshals (was: Re: Town Battle at the War)
                Baldrics (WAS:Re: safety for marshals)
                         safety for marshals
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 4 Sep 92 16:34:45 GMT
From: Sam Bassett <optilink!samlb@bloom-beacon.mit.edu>
Organization: Ex-Hightower type
Subject: Robin hood recast
Message-Id: <12147@optilink.UUCP>
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu

In article <715422381.F00002@ocitor.fidonet> Joe.Bethancourt@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Joe Bethancourt) writes:
> The Sheriff of Nottingham: (I take the Fifth Amendment!)

        Randall of Hightower (R.I.P., sadly) of course!

> King Richard: Siegfried v. Hoefflichkeit

        Excellent!

> Prince John: (see Sheriff!)

        Harold of Breakstone.

        . . . This from far-off & ancient times . . .

-- 
Sam'l Bassett -- System Administrator         (among other silly things)
Work: DSC/Optilink, 1310-C Redwood Wy, Petaluma CA 94954; 1-707-792-7253
Internet: samlb@optilink.com                  UUCP: uunet!optilink!samlb

 -----------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Sep 92 16:03:25 EDT
From: Tim McDaniel <mcdaniel@adi.com>
Message-Id: <9209052003.AA07149@adi.com>
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: Colored tape

Keradwc an Cai writes:
> I use a similar guideline, and have expanded it to the general question:
> 
> What was done to solve <this problem> in period?
> 
> If the situation never came up, _then_ check out non-intrusive 
> modern solutions.

Or if the situation never came up in period, maybe there's something
wrong with your re-creation of the period.

-- 
Daniel de Lincoln, Burgh of Cynnabar, Midrealm.  Nomen hac aetate:

Tim McDaniel                 Applied Dynamics Int'l.; Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
Internet: mcdaniel@adi.com                UUCP: {uunet,sharkey}!amara!mcdaniel

 -----------------------------

Date: Sat, 05 Sep 92 07:21:25 GMT
From: Peter John Harrison <peterh@netcom.com>
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)
Subject: Schedule of events / Is there an FAQ?
Message-Id: <=cnnvab.peterh@netcom.com>
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu

Is there an FAQ for events in the West?  Or if not, could someone contact
me with this information (I dropped out for a number of years, but would
like to get back).

Specifically, BTW, when / where is October Crown???
===============================================================================
peterh@netcom.com
415-433-5500 (work)
(Gregory of Malvern) 

 -----------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1992 07:29:16 GMT
From: kalter@unh.edu
Organization: University of New Hampshire  -  Durham, NH
Subject: A thought about Rialto - "Guru" FAQ list
Message-Id: <2479385@gloin.unh.edu>
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu

   > > ..if we had moderators people could send questions to...
 SB> i'm agin' it.  It would restrict the free flow of info...

    The original poster had a nice idea, but had no word for it and had
the misfortune to pick a word that meant something he didn't mean.
The original post seemed NOT to be about blocking direct posts to the
list, but rather about squelching the usual series of messages like:
        "Does anybody out there know anything about (X)?"
        "No, but let me know what you find out."
        "duh, i thinx i heard somebody say once but i forget exactly"
        "Beats me, have you tried to...."
        "My friend could answer that in a second; I'll ask her this Friday"
..that leads up to the *really informative* message:
        "B.J. asked (X); I know the answer, and the answer is (...)!"

    Now, how is this going to happen?  By blocking access to the list? No.
By arm-twisting? No.  By sending NastyGrams? No.  By beefing up the
"off-topic police" thought control squad? No.  Simply by directing the
first message (voluntarily) to a particular person who is known to be
good at digging up answers, and has taken a vow to post all such answers
to the list.  
    How does the original inquirer know this person is well-informed
and good at digging up answers?  Because there is a periodic proclamation
which names all sages, wise women, and oracles.  Look Ye here.  These
are all the doors on which it profits a man to knock.  Ask elsewhere,
and Ye may come away wanting an answer, and addled, to boot.

    Such a list of Masters of Lore has the added advantage, that if I
see that someone knows a great muchness about something I fancy, I may
be moved to boldly ask for the cook's tour, where before I may have
stilled my tongue for lack of a name.  Shall we not do this??

 -----------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1992 08:44:40 GMT
From: Craig Cockburn <cockburn@edieng.enet.dec.com>
Organization: Digital Equipment Co. Ltd., Reading, England
Subject: Scottish Gaelic newspaper "Uinneagan"
Message-Id: <1992Sep5.091118.28650@rdg.dec.com>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic,soc.culture.europe,sci.lang,rec.org.sca,soc.culture.canada,alt.native,soc.culture.new-zealand,soc.culture.australian
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu

Please circulate widely

The third issue of the new Gaelic newspaper "Uinneagan" (=windows) has
just been published. This excellent development for Gaelic is well
worth a read. It's 16 A3 pages, and consists almost entirely of
Gaelic only articles with no translations. 

There is news, pictures, letters (from New Zealand and Germany), cartoons, 
adverts, book reviews, a story, and so on.

One item in the paper (book your accomodation now!) is that the 1995 Mod
will be in Golspie, just north of the Dornoch Firth and near the new Gaelic
learning centre "An Ceathramh"

Uinneagan costs one pound sterling per issue and is published four times
a year. To subscribe, or more more information on Scottish Gaelic, please
contact:

Comunn na Gaidhlig
5 Caolshraid Mhicheil
Inbhir Nis
Alba/ Scotland
IV2 3HQ

Comunn na Gaidhlig
5 Mitchell's Lane
Inverness
Scotland
IV2 3HQ


Fon/Phone +[44] (463) 234138       (0463) 234138
                   or 226472        
Facs/Fax  +[44] (463) 237470       (0463) 237470

 -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Craig Cockburn, Digital Equipment Co. Ltd, Reading, England.     Suas
  Internet: cockburn@edieng.enet.dec.com                           leis
  UUCP:..!decwrl!edieng.enet.dec.com!cockburn                      a'
                                                                   Gha\idhlig!
  Views here are my own, and are not necessarily those of Digital

 -----------------------------

Date: 3 Sep 92 10:19:53 GMT
From: Steve Rennell <wulf@sloth.equinox.gen.nz>
Organization: Lethargy Inc.
Subject: Hello and some questions
Message-Id: <715515593snx@sloth.equinox.gen.nz>
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu

Unto the visitors to the Rialto does Ulf of Sjaelland send Greetings, 

I have been reading this group on and off for about a year now and finally I 
can post!!!

I am resident in the Shire of Southron Gaard, Caid, New Zealand, and have 
just been lumbered with the post of Territorial Marshal, (acting till 
confirmed due to insufficient reluctance (I was on the Phone..)). We just 
finished getting together a set of mixed combat rules that would allow us to 
fight similarly to Lochac, and yet still be part of the Kingdom of Caid. It 
recently got approved by the Earl Marshal using 1 inch rubber blunts 
provisionally, till the heavies get used to being shot at. 

Now the Society 1992 Combat rules just arrived, and the minimum blunt sizes 
are listed as 1 and 1/4 inches, (so now we are going to have to re-write the 
rules...)

What, if anything, will Lochac's reaction to this be, since it would be good 
if our blunt specs and Lochac blunt specs were the same, since they are our 
nearest neighbours and I'd like to visit, and have them visit us, with a 
minimum of equipment hassles.

Wulf

On a different tack...
Would anyone who has the address (E-mail or otherwise) of Mistress Berengaria 
de Montfort of Carcassonne please E-mail me, since I lost contact a few 
months ago... 

 -----------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1992 13:32:16 GMT
From: "Alexander of Kiev (mka Carl Alexander" <carl@silver.lcs.mit.edu>
Organization: The Rialto
Subject: bunny round and other weird words
Message-Id: <1992Sep5.133216.15094@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu>
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu

Angharad ver' Rhuawn writes:
>
>In article <23008@sybase.sybase.com> leighann@sybase.com (Leigh Ann Hussey) writes:
>>Branwen writes:
>>>
>>>A bunny round is actually a short Spanish half-round....
>>
>>Ha!  When *I* first saw that shield, 7 or 8 years agone, they were
>>calling it a "Wankel" -- as in the shape of the rotary engine...
>
>Regionalisms keep surprising me!  Around here, a wankel is a small triangle,
>often somewhat rounded in the points, the sideds, or both, but always a
>triangle and just about always equilateral.
 
I don't think this is a matter of regionalisms; I think either Leigh Ann's 
source was using the wrong word, or she misunderstood Branwen's definition.
A Wankle is,  of course, rotary-engine shaped; sort of a three-axis 
equilateral ellipse:  gently curved sides, sharply curved corners, each 
of the corners (and each of the sides) identical; the bunny-round is a 
heater with a square top and a semi-circular bottom.  Two entirely 
different shapes.
 
Alexander of Kiev                       Carolingia, East

Carl Alexander                          Harvard Square, Cambridge, Mass.
carl@silver.lcs.mit.edu 

 -----------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1992 12:26:42 GMT
From: "Alexander of Kiev (mka Carl Alexander" <carl@silver.lcs.mit.edu>
Organization: The Rialto
Subject: Great diesel beasts at Pennsic
Message-Id: <1992Sep5.122642.13214@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu>
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu

I wrote:
 
>>>I suspect the State of Pennsylvania would be happy to permit us to
>>>engage in a roadside beautification project.... 
[Specifics of my suggestion for planting trees along I-79 to block 
the view from the road, thus giving the gawkers nothing to gawk at &
the truckers nothing to honk at, omitted for bandwidth.]
 
Corun MacAnndra replied:
 
>> I know from personal experience that the Cooper's would welcome and help
>> for improving the campground, and they do own a backhoe. Whether you can
>> get the permission of the state to plant is another thing....
 
and Duncan Forbes added:
 
>I would be happy to help also. I also think that if the trees are on the
>Cooper's land there is little that will concern the state. 
 
True.  There are several reasons why I suggested planting the trees on
the State's right of way:  Planting just inside the fence would put 
the trees in the middle of what is currently a path, and moving 
the path would cut into the available camping space.  Also, I-79
is atop a fairly steep embankment along most of it's frontage with 
Cooper's Lake; the higher up that embankment we can plant the trees, 
the sooner they will be tall enough to block the view.  So, asking the 
Coopers' permission to plant on their land would be a fallback if the
State were uncooperative.
 
At this point, I'd like to gather some information & then, if it looks 
viable, touch base with the Pennsic planning people.  Are there any 
Pennsylvania residents out there who are interested in this project 
who'd be willing to act as the contact-point with the State beauracracy?
I'm willing to draft the correspondence (carefully vague & not mentioning 
the SCA); I just think there'd be fewer irrelevant questions if the  
State's contact were a Pa. resident.  ('So, why is somebody from 
Massachusetts so interested in beautifying a Pennsylvania road?')
 
Also (& far less likely), is there anyone out there with good contacts 
in the timber industry?  Someone who might be able to swing a discount, 
or maybe even a donation, with to regard some saplings for a good cause?
 
Alexander of Kiev                       Carolingia, East

Carl Alexander                          Harvard Square, Cambridge, Mass.
carl@silver.lcs.mit.edu 

 -----------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1992 17:53:34 GMT
From: Dave Liebreich <davel@news.arc.nasa.gov>
Organization: NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA
Subject: A thought about Rialto
Message-Id: <1992Sep5.175334.6155@news.arc.nasa.gov>
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu

Greetings unto the (limited) Rialto, from David Waxthorn.

In article <12148@optilink.UUCP> samlb@optilink.UUCP (Sam Bassett) writes:
>       Despite the recent rash of people flicking lit matches at each
>other over the net here, I still prefer an open, unmoderated forum.
>

You know, since the mail-to-newgroup gateway at MIT went down (thus
limiting the content of rec.org.sca to those articles posted to it
directly), it's been fairly peaceful here.

Hmmmm . . . 

=========================================================================
David Waxthorn                                  David Liebreich
Principality of the Mists                       NASA Ames Research Center
Laurel Kingdom of the West                      Moffett Field, CA

 "The opinions expressed above are not necessarily those of my liege-lord"
                           doo dah doo dah

 -----------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1992 18:00:21 GMT
From: Dave Liebreich <davel@news.arc.nasa.gov>
Organization: NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA
Subject: A thought about Rialto
Message-Id: <1992Sep5.180021.6898@news.arc.nasa.gov>
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu

Greetings (again) unto the (full) Rialto, from David Waxthorn.

I just wrote:
>
>You know, since the mail-to-newgroup gateway at MIT went down (thus
>limiting the content of rec.org.sca to those articles posted to it
>directly), it's been fairly peaceful here.
>
>Hmmmm . . . 
>

I just noticed that it's back up (the gateway, rather than the content).

Oh well.  No offense?

=========================================================================
David Waxthorn                                  David Liebreich
Principality of the Mists                       NASA Ames Research Center
Laurel Kingdom of the West                      Moffett Field, CA

          "Liege-lord?  I don't need no steenking liege-lord!"
                           doo dah doo dah

 -----------------------------

Date: Sat, 05 Sep 1992 11:17:36 -0500
From: Dave Aronson <Dave.Aronson@f120.n109.z1.fidonet.org>
Subject: Great diesel beasts at Pennsic
Message-Id: <715719654.F00002@blkcat.UUCP>
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu

Many good gentles have written on the planting of trees alongside the road in
order to block the mundanes' view of Pennsic.  The Coopers have a sign, within
their bounds, next to the road.  Were we to plant trees, we may block the view
of the sign, thus losing the Coopers some advertising.  There is also the fact
that we would be blocking the view to /their/ land in the first place.  Even if
the State does not mind our planting along the road, it behooveth us to obtain
the say-so of the Coopers aforehand.

 -----------------------------

Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1992 01:27:04 GMT
From: "Hossein Ali Qomi (mka Gregory F. Rose" <greg@silver.lcs.mit.edu>
Organization: The Rialto
Subject: consort gender
Message-Id: <1992Sep6.012704.9086@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu>
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu

Unto the good gentles of the Rialto does Hossein Ali Qomi send greetings and
prayers for the blessings of Allah.

Raedwynn aet thaem Grene Wudu recently posted:

>As for the same-sex consort question:
>I've avoided putting my $4 in so far. I've seen some truly homophobic
>answers, some merely stupid answers, and some vaguely acceptable answers
>(though one of the best of the latter, "It's not period," is, as far as 
>I'm concerned, balderdash. These are the CURRENT Middle Ages, and thank
>whatever deities you like we've progressed since the last ones. We don't
>tax serfs into the ground these days either (well, WE don't :-) nor do
>we lop the heads off of people we don't like for a living. 

And posted on behalf of Etain macDhomhnuill:

>Homosexual couples may not be period but neither is women's rights or
>tolerance towards Jews or many other things we could name. We don't
>not do those things just because they're not period, so not being period
>isn't really that good a criterion.

These remarks identify the problem quite well.  We have a choice.  We can
use one of two decision-rules in admitting or excluding practices from
our recreation:
        1.  Historical documentation of medieval practice;
        2.  The modern preferences, prejudices, and ideologies of modern
                people.

The first has, at least, the virtue of some degree of objectivity.  The
latter is entirely arbitrary, if enforced, or no decision rule at all.

By and large we tend to accept the second decision rule by default.  That is
why the SCA by and large has as much to do with the Middle Ages as quantum
mechanics.  Other people have every right to live their fantasies as they
choose.  I'm a little tired of having their fantasies imposed on my
historical recreation and even more tired of being told that their
fantasies have anything whatsoever to do with medieval history, as the
grotesque formula, "the current middle ages," implies.

We hear a great deal of lip-service paid to tolerance of people's "dreams,"
because any other course would drive people out of the Society.  The net
effect of the current decision rule is to drive out the medievalists.

In Service to the Society,

Hossein Ali Qomi/Gregory F. Rose

 -----------------------------

Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1992 02:42:38 GMT
From: "Alexander of Kiev (mka Carl Alexander" <carl@silver.lcs.mit.edu>
Organization: The Rialto
Subject: Great diesel beasts at Pennsic
Message-Id: <1992Sep6.024238.11589@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu>
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu

In article <715719654.F00002@blkcat.UUCP> Dave.Aronson@f120.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Dave Aronson) writes:
>Many good gentles have written on the planting of trees alongside the road in
>order to block the mundanes' view of Pennsic.  The Coopers have a sign, within
>their bounds, next to the road.  Were we to plant trees, we may block the view
>of the sign, thus losing the Coopers some advertising.  There is also the fact
>that we would be blocking the view to /their/ land in the first place.  Even if
>the State does not mind our planting along the road, it behooveth us to obtain
>the say-so of the Coopers aforehand.

I took all of this to be so obvious as to go without saying, but this
post makes it clear that I was wrong.  If the Coopers don't like the 
idea, then that would, of course, be the end of it.  It seems equally 
obvious to me that the appropriate channel through which to approach 
the Coopers would be the autocrat or the Pennsic planning commission.
And I can see no point in approaching those people without first 
determining whether the idea is viable:  discussing it on the Rialto, 
in order to find out whether anyone other than myself would be 
interested in working on such a project, seemed to me an obvious first 
step in the process of determining such viability.  It also seems to me 
a fundamental courtesy to not bother either the Coopers or the autocrat 
with a pie-in-the-sky idea, but rather to hold off until there might be 
something concrete to discuss.
 
I could call the Coopers right now and find out whether they have 
any objections. If they did, this would save me some wasted time 
and effort; if they did not, and the idea later turned out to be 
untenable for any of the dozen reasons I can think of off the top 
of my head, then I would have wasted *their* time.  I would rather 
risk wasting my own time.
 
Alexander of Kiev                       Carolingia, East

Carl Alexander                          Harvard Square, Cambridge, Mass.
carl@silver.lcs.mit.edu 

 -----------------------------

Date: 5 Sep 92 17:14:47 GMT
From: Sam Bassett <optilink!samlb@bloom-beacon.mit.edu>
Organization: Old, used cleric
Subject: consort gender
Message-Id: <12154@optilink.UUCP>
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu

In article <1992Sep5.005704.8573@news.cs.brandeis.edu> tabron@binah.cc.brandeis.edu writes:
>As a witch I would like you to clarify just why you think the public
>associates "mass murder" with pentagrams? 

        Charles Manson.

        You may not be old enough to remember "helter skelter" clearly,
and to have been exposed to the flood of anti-pentacle literature that
was dumped on the market in the early '70s.  It waas truly amazing, the
level of paranoia . . . .

>but I have never seen a pentacle get the kind of negative reaction one
>has to a swastika. 

        Yup. I'll admit _you_ probaably never have seen that kind of
reaction -- but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.  Ever been in the
back country in Alabama, Georgia, or Mississippi -- or the deep Central
Valley of California, for that matter?  Things are _very_ different
there.

-- 
Sam'l Bassett -- System Administrator         (among other silly things)
Work: DSC/Optilink, 1310-C Redwood Wy, Petaluma CA 94954; 1-707-792-7253
Internet: samlb@optilink.com                  UUCP: uunet!optilink!samlb

 -----------------------------

Date: 4 Sep 92 12:50:53 GMT
From: "T. Archer" <PA142548@utkvm1.utk.edu>
Organization: University of Tennessee Division of Continuing Education
Subject: multiple titles
Message-Id: <PA142548.275.715611053@utkvm1.utk.edu>
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu

In article <715557838.F00007@blkcat.UUCP> Henry.Best@f120.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Henry Best) writes:
>I have heard Viscount Viscount Viscount Viscount Sir Sir Master Master 
>Edward referred to as "His Etceteracy".........
>                                                Henry

HA!  I'll have to remember that one!

 -----------------------------

Date: 6 Sep 92 04:29:45 GMT
From: David Schroeder <ds4p+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Organization: Doctoral student, Industrial Administration, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Subject: Baby Announcement!
Message-Id: <ceeMYti00WB4Q2OX9d@andrew.cmu.edu>
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu

Good gentles --

We are VERY pleased to share the joyful news that:

   Elizabeth Kori Guildroy Schroeder

was born at 7:23 p.m. on Saturday, September 5th, 1992.         

Weight:  8 lbs. 1 oz.    Length: 21 inches

Our new daughter was born after 12 hours of labor.
Mother, child, and father are doing well.

Our thanks to all of you for your help and support thus far!

Much love --

  Dave Schroeder         Bertram of Bearington
  Amy Guildroy           Eromene Aspasia of Constantinople

  117 Gordon Street * Pittsburgh, PA 15218 * (412) 731-3230

  Barony Marche of the Debatable Lands * AEthelmearc * East

 -----------------------------

Date: 6 Sep 92 14:07:49 GMT
From: David Salley <salley@niktow.canisius.edu>
Organization: Canisius College, Buffalo NY. 14208
Subject: Multiple titles (was Edward Zifran of Gendy)
Message-Id: <1314@niktow.canisius.edu>
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu

Corun MacAnndra writes:
> Arval writes:
> >At the risk of sounding unbearably stuffy, I'd like to point out that
> >stringing multiple titles before a name...
> >
> >> Viscount Viscount Viscount Viscount Sir Sir Master Master Edward, 
                        [ stuff deleted ]
> >The correct usage is one title at a time, as appropriate.
> 
> I have the utmost respect. Given that I got the string from Ed, the fact
> that I would use it in a public forum as a jest he shares, is a measure of
> the respect I hold for the man himself. I am proud to know him and be counted
> among his friends, and would be so regardless of his place in the Society.

I'm still curious, _two_ knightings??  Story please?  Inquiring minds want 
to know.  ;-) ;-) ;-) 
                                                       - Dagonell

SCA Persona : Lord Dagonell Collingwood of Emerald Lake, CSC, CK, CTr
Habitat     : East Kingdom, AEthelmearc Principality, Rhydderich Hael Barony
Disclaimer  : A society that needs disclaimers has too many lawyers.
Internet    : salley@niktow.cs.canisius.edu
USnail-net  : David P. Salley, 136 Shepard Street, Buffalo, New York 14212-2029

THE LAST THREE WINNERS OF AETHELMEARC CORONET TOURNEY HAVE BEEN...
_A_riel       fighting for the wife of Sir Raimund  of Rhydderich Hael
_B_ear        fighting for the wife of Sir Ogami    of Rhydderich Hael
_C_hristopher fighting for the wife of Sir Carthalo of Rhydderich Hael
  "Hello? Sir Bedawyr? This is _D_agonell.  If you're not fighting for your
   wife Lena in the next Coronet Tourney, I have a proposition for you ..."

 -----------------------------

Date: 6 Sep 92 14:41:42 GMT
From: David Salley <salley@niktow.canisius.edu>
Organization: Canisius College, Buffalo NY. 14208
Subject: safety for marshals (was: Re: Town Battle at the War)
Message-Id: <1315@niktow.canisius.edu>
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu

Aldric MacGlynn writes:
> vance@control.com writes:
> <<<stuff deleted>>>
> >I would rather see some arrangement where the marshals can keep an eye
> >on the fighting without risking injury as in the Bridge Battle. Any
> >suggestions that address the safety of the marshals would be much
> >appreciated.
> 
> This is an idea that I've been kicking around for about a year now
> and would like some feedback.  It would help *all* field
> noncombatants.
> 
> In some heraldry, there are 'stains' which are basically a few
> 'natural dye' colors.  One of these is a rusty-orange color (I think
> it's called 'tenne').

Correct!  'Tenne' is orange.  The other often used one is 'sanguine' which is
blood-red.    Only senior heralds could tell sanguine from 'gules' (simple red)
on sight and then it would be a function of distance.  Tenne looks like a
gules tabard that was washed with just a little too much bleach.  This is one
of the reasons SCA doesn't allow stains.

> Now, for the rest of this article, I'll use the abreviation "SO", to
> stand for "safety orange".  Now, I'm not sure that I really mean SO,
> but I want a hue that is *bright* enough to be *quickly* recognized
> but not so bright as to be *jarringly* out of place.
> 
> We get the BOD to allow SO for a *few* devices.  One for field
> noncombatants (marshals, water bearers, field heralds, etc) and a
> second one for (ummmmm???) "semi-combatants".  I'm not really sure
> about *what* semi-combatants are because I've never seen them.  What I
> mean by semi-combatants are those people that you can walk "X" feet
> from and say "m'lord, you're dead".  I believe that some form of
> archer is in this class and so would scouts. Is this right and are
> there others that should be in this catagory?  A third device (and one
> that might not actually be needed) would be used to mark the "edge of
> the world" in things like Woods Battles.

You left chirurgeons out of non-combatants.  The class you call semi-combatants,
is known as lights.

> When I say device, I'm thinking that it would be on the front and back
> of a tabard.  However, perhaps a *wide* baldric (over 6" wide) of some
> set pattern could be done.  ...*can* a baldric-like device be done
> with proper heraldry?  I know there are rules for making various
> 'flags' (such as a standard or an ensign) from a device.
> 
> So, basically, these would be the *visual* equivallent of saying
> >>*HOLD*, do NOT hit me<<.

Essentially, you're describing the system that's already in place.

BATTLE RULES FOR STICK JOCKS (EK VERSION)
 ---------------------------
1.) If it's wearing a baldric, do what it tells you.
        Serious effort has been made to follow the KISS rule (Keep It Simple,
Stupid!)  Marshalls wear black, water-bearers blue, heralds green, chirurgeons
red.  Yellow, white and purple are still unused.  And I think one of the
first two would be better than safety orange.  Want lots of cheap white?
Go to Goodwill, Salvation Army, etc.  and pick-up a few dozen used bedsheets.

2.) If it has an _open-face_ helmet, tell it it's dead.
        Eastern scouts are NOT permitted to wear closed face helms.  We don't
want them mistaken for fighters in the confusion of battle.  Scouts are
used for reconnaissance.  We pride ourselves on our invisibility.  [I was
once killed by the warlord of the ealdormere forces who found me only because
he tripped over me while walking through tall grass.]  We _AREN'T_ going to
wear 'safety-orange' clothing in the woods.

3.) If it has a _closed-face_ helm, hit it. 
        This is why we don't allow scouts to wear fighter's helmets.

                                                       - Dagonell

SCA Persona : Lord Dagonell Collingwood of Emerald Lake, CSC, CK, CTr
Habitat     : East Kingdom, AEthelmearc Principality, Rhydderich Hael Barony
Disclaimer  : A society that needs disclaimers has too many lawyers.
Internet    : salley@niktow.cs.canisius.edu
USnail-net  : David P. Salley, 136 Shepard Street, Buffalo, New York 14212-2029

THE LAST THREE WINNERS OF AETHELMEARC CORONET TOURNEY HAVE BEEN...
_A_riel       fighting for the wife of Sir Raimund  of Rhydderich Hael
_B_ear        fighting for the wife of Sir Ogami    of Rhydderich Hael
_C_hristopher fighting for the wife of Sir Carthalo of Rhydderich Hael
  "Hello? Sir Bedawyr? This is _D_agonell.  If you're not fighting for your
   wife Lena in the next Coronet Tourney, I have a proposition for you ..."

 -----------------------------

Date: Sun, 6 Sep 92 09:12:27 -0700
Message-Id: <9209061612.AA22555@isi.com>
From: Kevin Davis Connery <kevin@isi.com>
To: rialto@isi.com
Cc: KEVIN@isi.com
Subject: Baldrics (WAS:Re: safety for marshals)

Dagonell, who probably _does_ know better, wrote:

> BATTLE RULES FOR STICK JOCKS (EK VERSION)
> ----------------------------
> 1.) If it's wearing a baldric, do what it tells you.
>       Serious effort has been made to follow the KISS rule (Keep It 
> Simple, Stupid!)  Marshalls wear black, water-bearers blue, heralds green, 
> chirurgeons red.  Yellow, white and purple are still unused.  And I think 
> one of the first two would be better than safety orange.  Want lots of 
> cheap white? Go to Goodwill, Salvation Army, etc.  and pick-up a few 
> dozen used bedsheets.

Another source of white -- often already cut and made into baldrics --
are those Masters of Arms, who, oddly enough, are often on the field
along with the rest of the fighters. (I can see a Caidan making that
mistake; Dagonell, shame on you! <g>)

> 2.) If it has an _open-face_ helmet, tell it it's dead.

And if it's a marshall, say 'oops', and NOBODY IS HURT. Sounds OK to me.

> 3.) If it has a _closed-face_ helm, hit it. 

...one presumes after whatever rules for engagement have been
established. (Lines count. But pipple _near_ a combat line without
'fighter's helmets' don't. [Dagonell statements didn't imply otherwise;
I just wanted to make sure.])

Keradwc
 -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 | Keradwc an Cai     |       Adfui, Feci        |  In the Mists of the West |
 |--------------------|--------------------------|---------------------------|
 | Kevin Connery      | Quality must be designed |   Speaking FROM, not FOR: |
 |                    | into software; it cannot |   Integrated Systems, Inc |
 | kconnery@isi.com   | be patched on afterwards |           Santa Clara, CA |
 -----------------------------------------------------------------------------

 -----------------------------

Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1992 15:31:50 -0500
From: Michael Squires <mikes@moose.cs.indiana.edu>
Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington
Subject: safety for marshals
Message-Id: <1992Sep6.153155.28696@news.cs.indiana.edu>
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu

In article <1992Sep04.175328.20709@watson.ibm.com> mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman) writes:
>on the field who isn't in armor isn't a legal target.  Are there many cases
>of marshalls and scouts being hit by fighters?  Is there really a problem
>here to be solved?

Unfortunately it is fairly common for a marshall to be hit in a Pennsic
battle.  At Pennsic XX Duke Sir Corin du Soleil was hit in the face once
before he put on a scout helm, twice through the eyeslots after he put
the guard on.  I and Sir Belgar (sp?) both watched the bridge battle
while protecting Corin's legs and bodies with our staffs.

Sir Corin was hit by spears that were being rapidly withdrawn to avoid being
captured by the opposition, or by other accidents.  The structure of the
fortification was such that we had to stand at the exact point of conflict
in order to be near enough to see anything.

I've also had similar experiences in Crown Tourney, especially when a fighter
tends to use the edges of the tourney field tactically.  In one such case I
was driven against a wall by two of our best two-weapon fighters going at it
hammer-and-tongs.  I did have a talk with the fighters later.

There are two different ways of marshalling a large event.  You can stay out
of the way and be relatively safe yourself or you can try to stay close to
action and intervene when dangerous situations occur.  In some cases it is
necessary to take risks in order to allow a bout or battle to be completed
properly; in Crown Tourney I will interpose myself between fighters and
the edge and will not call hold unless I or the spectators will shortly
be in danger, in order to keep a fighter from using the edge of the list
tactically.  In such a case I will make contact with the fighters with my
staff well before the time that they endanger me so that they are warned
that they will soon be up against the edge.

Marshalls should always wear the tabard, and in major tourneys or wars a
steel cap that does not look like a helmet (a British WWI pot can be made into
a terrific medieval pot, and if painted or decorated does not look like
a helmet; I'm trying to get a morion for myself.  Hand protection is a good
idea, also.  On the other hand, if I ever have to marshall a pass or town
battle at Pennsic I may show up in full plate.)

Marshalls should always have loud whistles in major tourneys/battles, and
staffs that are clearly marshalling staffs and not spears or polearms -
having a black/yellow staff thrust in front of your eyes tends to calm
people down.  Marshalling staffs should meet rules for spears/polearms
as they may be broken accidentally.  When marshalling large events I also
tend to wear every piece of regailia that I have, it tends to help in getting
one's requests listened to.  My baronial coronet, however, is broken in two
places where I was struck at Pennsic XIX in the field battle, as I remember.

I've also seen marshalls run down by charging groups who didn't see them
in the way, or thought that the marshall was a fighter.  In some cases
I've seen marshalls interpose themselves in front of a charging group
in order to break a dangerous or illegal charge.

I've not seen a fighter deliberately strike a marshall; I have seen fighters
strike marshalls and scouts when they mistook them for fighters, or were
not aware of their presence.  It is also clear that inexperienced marshalls
are often in greater danger than either the fighters, the experienced marshalls,
or the audience.
-- 

Mike Squires (mikes@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu)     812 855 3974 (w) 812 333 6564 (h)
mikes@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu          546 N Park Ridge Rd., Bloomington, IN 47408

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