HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: roney@selkirk.sfu.ca (Chris J. Roney)
Subject: Re: Get a life baseball fans... Try ping-pong!
Organization: Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 22:26:28 GMT

Khanh Nguyen <khanh@cfsmo.honeywell.com> writes:



>Have you seen a modern table tennis tourney lately?  Real action!  Mano a
>mano battle for supremacy on the board.  Each one grabbing his paddle
>instead of his crotch.

>Pardon my saying so, but the only thing lamer than baseball is what you
>call "football."

>No flames necessary-- although I'm not sure you knobheads could scrape up
>enough intelligence between you to come up with a good one.  Anyway, I'm
>sure you're all REALLY offended.  Offended-- that's a big person word for
>when you don't like something that someone said.  

>So, don't bother.

>Khanh



    OOOOOOOOh, that really hurts!  Getting flamed by someone who
thinks ping pong (oops, sorry - table tennis) is a grown up game for
grown up people!  So much for my self-esteem.-- 
Chris Roney  (e-mail chris_roney@sfu.ca)
From: kbos@carina.unm.edu (K. Mitchell Bose)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Who was drafted befor "Big Hurt"? (Was: Re: Clark v Thomas)
Date: 11 Jan 1993 21:44:16 GMT
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque
NNTP-Posting-Host: carina.unm.edu

In article <11JAN199310443668@pierre.mit.edu> kettler@pierre.mit.edu (KETTLER, THOMAS R.) writes:
>
>To try to stop this thread which has gone on way too long, I have a question.  
>Which teams drafted and which players were drafted ahead of Frank Thomas? I 
know that he was drafted seventh overall in the 1989 draft but I don't know who 
>was drafted before him. Of course, if the Expos were one of the teams by 
>acquiring a pick that early by trade, I'll cry. d::-) or d::-( if so.
>
The players drafted before Thomas were:

Ben McDonald, Orioles
Tyler Houston, Braves
Roger Salkeld, Mariners
Jeff Jackson, Phillies
Donald Harris, Rangers
Paul Coleman, Cards

Oh, but you can still go d::-( if you wish, because the Expos drafted Charles
Johnson, the Marlins catcher of the future, but couldn't sign him because they
refused to pay him based on their first round pick the year before, when they
shelled out $225,000 for Reid Cornelius.

Actually, that draft looks pretty good for all the clubs, compared with past
drafts.  Oh, and don't fret, because Brian Barnes slipped to the fourth round.
That way, the draft wasn't a total loss...


-- 
Kurt Bose (as in Daisy, not Rose) * kbos@carina.unm.edu * Walks: not that sexy.
"Halt!  Based on conclusive dental evidence that truly bites, I arrest you 
 hereby for the murdering of the dead Belzic Tascar.  I am obliged to warn you 
 that my weapons are registered as offensive fronds!!"- R.M.Allen, "Monkey See"
From: paula@koufax.cv.hp.com (Paul Andresen)
Subject: Re: Baseball fans, players and owners
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 20:33:29 GMT

In article <1inj9cINN5u9@flash.pax.tpa.com.au>, anon.574@pax.tpa.com.au writes:
|> 
|>         Baseball players are overpaid, undereduated, moronic cretins who 
|> lack basic social skills.
|>         Baseball fans contain all of the above characteristics and are 
|> pathetic because of their interest in such a useless sport which contains 
|> all of the excitement of a good golf game.
|>         You can quote me on this!

I never can remember who said it but:

     "Baseball is dull only to those with dull minds"

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
              If you're really hip, the passing years will show.
                                           ......Tower Of Power

  paula@koufax.cv.hp.com   Paul Andresen  Hewlett-Packard  (503)-750-3511

    home: 3006 NW McKinley    Corvallis, OR 97330       (503)-752-8424
                            A SABR member since 1979
From: ron@osf.org (Ron Birnbaum)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Babe Ruth Candy Bar
Date: 8 Jan 93 15:36:28 GMT
Organization: Open Software Foundation

|> >In article <1993Jan7.212029.14746@midway.uchicago.edu> thf2@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
|> >
|> >>But what candy bar is Holtzman thinking of wrt Ruth?  Is he thoughtlessly
|> >>assuming that the Baby Ruth bar is named for the baseball player, rather
|> >>than the daughter of the president?  Or is this one of those strange
|> >>urban legends about urban legends, and the Baby Ruth bar really *is*
|> >>named for Babe Ruth?
|> >>

   Indeed, 'Baby Ruth' is not the candy bar named in honor of Babe Ruth.
   The candy bar named for Babe Ruth is called "Snickers"!!

-Ron
;-)
From: rickert@NeXTwork.Rose-Hulman.Edu (John H. Rickert)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: replacements (WAS Re: Expos Clinch! Wallach to Dodgers)
Date: 4 Jan 1993 22:27:53 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Department at Rose-Hulman
Reply-To: rickert@NeXTwork.Rose-Hulman.Edu (John H. Rickert)
NNTP-Posting-Host: g215a-1.nextwork.rose-hulman.edu

In article <1993Jan3.194201.28068@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca>  
maynard@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca (Roger Maynard) writes:
> Can you prove to me that Hansen is better?  When it becomes obvious that
> Hansen is better then Wallach should be replaced.  Salaries escalation
> is destroying the game.

OK the careless error has been covered, but what about the idea behind it?
Suppose that you did have the option of replacing Wallach with Hansen?
(Like f'rinstance the Dodgers have)
My opinion is that It'd be better to replace W with H when H reaches W's  
level of ability since you don't lose anything now and you gain in the  
future. I'd think that this would be the strategy of a team trying to stay  
near the top.

 Since it takes some time to become obvious that H is better than W you 
appear to be saying that you should make your team decline some before trying  
to improve it. Chances are you're going to hgave 1-4 of these positions every  
year. 'guaranteeing' (well, almost) a decline every year at these positions  
doesn't seem (to me) to be the best way to operate.

seeing, hearing (my two sense worth)

john rickert
rickert@nextwork.rose-hulman.edu
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: niguma@ug.cs.dal.ca (Gordon Niguma)
Subject: Re: Lists: The Best Players In Baseeball
Keywords: stars best baseball
Organization: Math, Stats & CS, Dalhousie University, Halifax, NS, Canada
Distribution: na
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 16:26:06 GMT

In <1993Jan8.012305.18342@athena.mit.edu> cmk@athena.mit.edu (Charles M Kozierok) writes:
>In article <steph.726450880@pegasus.cs.uiuc.edu> steph@pegasus.cs.uiuc.edu (Dale Stephenson) writes:
>>While I like Alomar better than Sandberg next year, I'm not convinced he's
>>better than Sandberg defensively.  Sandberg's range factor was 5.36, while
>>Alomar was a 4.68, lowest in the AL.  Lacking any better information (like
>>DA), Sandberg looks better -- though not necessarily faster :->.
>Alomar was the *worst* in the AL? really?
>if that is the case, i don't understand these range factors very much.
>could someone please explain what they are, what they include and exclude,
>and also for what they are adjusted (park, etc.?)

  Range Factors is just the number of putouts + assists made per nine
innings. This isn't very good stat because it is heavily influenced by
things such as the tendency of his teams pitching staff. The fact that he
is the lowest though, IMHO, has definite meaning (not necessarily that he's
the worst, but he's not likely much better than average.).

>i'm not going to start down the "the stats say he's worst but i know he's
>great from seeing him" road again.. i'm just genuinely curious as to how someone
>who appears to be a defensive gem can have the lowest range factor. either
>he is doing it with mirrors, i am crazy, or that statistic is bogus.
>if anyone can clarify which of these three it is, i would like to hear it.
>also, what is the relationship between range factors and defensive averages?

  I don't think Alomar played that great defense at all this year and I 
watched about 120-130 Jay games (maybe more) this year. He was much better
last year and I posted re: Alomar's decline in defense, on how I subjectively
made that note and it turned out to be true.
  DA is Defensive Averages which calculates how many outs a player makes on 
balls hit to his zone (Sherri Nichols knows alot about thisstuff).

					Gord Niguma
					(fav player: John Olerud)

>--
>charles
-- 
In Stores Now:
The brand new album from Gord Niguma, Chris Nantes and Sean Andrews!
Songs Include: Yesterday My Hamster Died, The Death Of Kirby Puckett,
               Let Love In, Alcoholic Santa Claus......Get your copy today!
From: sfh@po.CWRU.Edu (Steven F. Hubbard)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Hall of Fame voting (read - Disgusted)
Date: 7 Jan 1993 15:06:40 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: sfh@po.CWRU.Edu (Steven F. Hubbard)
NNTP-Posting-Host: thor.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, acker@maple.circa.ufl.edu () says:

>And most of this for perhaps the worst team of the 1970's?
>I'll tell you why.  Prejudice.  Ignorance.  A closed-minded view that thinks
>anyone who isn't named Babe or Cy should NOT be voted into the Hall of Fame
>anymore because it's too big already.  Remember -- these guys also voted Kirk
>Gibson as NL MVP in 1988.

  Well, that explains why Reggie "Cy" Jackson got elected, doesn't it?

SfH
-- 
Steven F. Hubbard                ** "If people don't want to come to the 
Case Western Reserve University  **     ballpark, how are you gonna stop them? 
Department of Physics            **  
Cleveland, OH 44106              **                         -- Yogi
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: Cecil signs :-( :-( :-(
Originator: news@nimaster
Reply-To: roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig)
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 17:09:00 GMT

In article <1993Jan11.164050.27334@athena.mit.edu> frisch1@athena.mit.edu (Jonathan Katz) writes:
>I don't understand you guys.  Fielder is one of the five best first basemen in
>the league right now. 

Really?  Who are your other four?  Whom do you consider *worse* than
Fielder among AL first basemen?

> His avergae last year was an aberration. 

How do you know that?  For one thing, it was only 30 to 40 points below
previous years.  For another, he's only had two other full seasons.
Could it be that the pitchers have figured him out?

> And besides, his
>average wasnt _that bad_ considering how many homeruns he hit.  He's been an

But it *did* suck when you consider that he didn't get many doubles or
triples, and that he didn't walk all that much.  Change 30 of his outs
into walks and you have a more viable player; but he's never walked that
much, and won't start now.  His OBP was terrible, his SLG pretty sorry
for a slugger -- and BA doesn't tell you much about a player anyway.

>all-star the past three years, too (a starter a couple of times also, if I am
>correct).  That clearly makes him beter than 'marginally above average'.

No, it makes him "media darling."  Being an all-star doesn't make up for 
470 outs.

>Besides, and this will probably get a lot of flaming, I think that had he not
>missed time in Japan, he would now be on the way to a HOF career.

Or perhaps he'd never have developed that sweet swing at all.  

Look, if he comes back and gets into a real 40-HR groove for the next
seven years, he'll make the Hall.  However, the history of players
like him suggests that he won't, not at his age.  He can't field
much, doesn't walk enough, and isn't very fast on the bases either.
He'll become less and less valuable as these things get worse (aside
from his walks, which should stay about steady).
Roger
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu (Ted Frank)
Subject: Re: Bill James help
Reply-To: thf2@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 04:49:54 GMT

In article <1993Jan10.195524.4811@wkuvx1.bitnet> cabanrf@wkuvx1.bitnet writes:
>87 was the last year wasn't it?

The 1988 Abstract covering the 1987 season was his "last" year.
-- 
ted frank                     | thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu 
standard disclaimers          | void where prohibited
the university of chicago law school, chicago, illinois 60637
never shout movie in a crowded firestation
From: genetic+@pitt.edu (Dr. Dave)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Darrell Evans
Date: 12 Jan 93 19:24:07 GMT
Organization: Department of Industrial Engineering

Thus spake tloughin@IASTATE.EDU (Thomas M Loughin):
>
>Key:  YR = years as team's primary 3b, 1971-1987
>      OBP = (H+BB)/(ab+bb) only
>      ***all numbers through 1987 only***
>
>Player       YR    G     AB     H     HR     AVG     OBP     SLG     O+S
>
>NETTLES      16  2620   8893   2209   389    .248    .330    .422    .772 
>CEY          14  2073   7162   1868   316    .261    .352    .445    .797
>SCHMIDT      14  2254   7814   2107   530    .270    .383    .536    .919
>BRETT        13  1856   7102   2219   231    .312    .379    .505    .884
>DECINCES     12  1649   5809   1505   237    .259    .330    .445    .775
>MADLOCK      12  1806   6594   2008   163    .305    .363    .442    .805
>
>EVANS        10  2436   8260   2075   381    .251    .365    .436    .801

[Fielding...]
>reputations varied somewhat.  Bell, Rodriguez, Reitz, Schmidt, ans Decinces 
>were all considered at the top of the ir game;  guys like Bando, Parrish, 
>Gross, and Howell weren't so hot, as I recall (correct me if I'm wrong).  
>Maybe Lansford is closer to the first group,; Evans closer to the second.

That's not how I remember it.  Darrell Evans was an excellent fielding 3B who
had the misfortune of sharing a league with Bell and Schmidt, two of the best
glove men of all time.  Evans was considerably better than Cey with the glove,
and Cey was in turn considerably better than Madlock.

>I will say this:  if you want to put Darrell Evans 
>into the HOF, you'd better reserve spaces next to him for Bill Madlock and Ron 
>Cey...(Schmidt and Brett will have their own wings.)

I disagree completely.  Evans and Cey were almost equal as hitters (especially
once you take Cey out of Chavez Ravine), but Evans was a better glove man and
had a longer career (though not at third base).  It's significant that a team
would *want* to keep Darrell Evans around as a 42-year-old DH, while nobody
would ever make such an offer to Ron Cey or Bill Madlock (or Dave Kingman).
And he was a very fine fielding *first* baseman, as well.

I don't think you can ignore 400+ career HR with an OBP of .365.  It's not 
like we're talking about Dave "3/4 of a dimension" Kingman here; we're looking
at 400 HR *and* tremendous walks *and* great defense at two positions *and*
extreme longevity.  I'd put Santo in first, but I'd put Evans in eventually.
(Brett and Schmidt go without saying, of course.)


-- 
       David Tate        |"Out of the dugout endlessly swinging,
 dtate@unix.cis.pitt.edu | Out of the manager's throat, the sound fundamentals,
 Prof. of Story Problems | Out of the six-month season..."            
 Member ORSA, TIMS, SABR | 	Walt "Lefty" Whitman
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: steinman@me.utoronto.ca (David Steinman)
Subject: switch hitting  (was Re: Cito and John...)
Organization: UofT Mechanical Engineering
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1993 02:48:58 GMT

cmk@athena.mit.edu (Charles M Kozierok) writes:

>and the other thing i would love to understand is: why does Cito continue
>not to let him play against LH pitching? i had read somewhere that
>Olerud hit lefties quite well. and even if not, isn't it time he learned?
>i mean this is a guy they kept on the roster even with no minor league
>experience. if they could take that much of a chance, why not let him
>try his luck over a whole season?

This is the aspect of platooning and switch hitting which has always
bothered me.  For example, if a guy bats .310 on the right, and 
.225 on the left, doesn't it make sense to at least *try* him on the 
right full time? 
--
Dave!
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu (Ted Frank)
Subject: Re: Darrell Evans
Reply-To: thf2@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 21:34:07 GMT

In article <8483@news.duke.edu> fierkelab@bchm.biochem.duke.edu writes:
>In article <1993Jan10.230244.1898@midway.uchicago.edu> thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu
>(Ted Frank) writes:
>>A solid performer for a long period of time, probably a definition-C hall
>>of famer.  But he doesn't match up to many of the criteria mentioned by
>>James for a Hall of Famer.  Maybe he was the best player on his team for
>>a few of the worse teams he played for.  He was a good enough player to
>>continue playing well past his prime.  But he never came close to winning
>>an MVP, and he played in an era when there were a lot of good third basemen.
>>-- 
>As I recall, Bill James' criteria were designed to PREDICT whom would be
>elected to the HOF, not necessarily to decide who SHOULD be elected to the HOF.
> Using James'criteria would probably give Steve Garvey a better shot to be
>elected to the HOF than Evans, since Garvey had all that postseason exposure
>and appearances on the All-Star team.  But I'd still say that Evans was a
>better player than Garvey, and if only one of the two should go, it should be
>Evans.  Besides, the HOF is considerably short of 3Bmen.

Well, there were two James's criteria.  One was what you're referring to,
the 100-point system based on mediot stats and Maynardesque intangibles.
I'm referring to his essay on the Cleveland Indians in the 1985 Abstract
when he explains why Ken Keltner doesn't belong in the Hall.

There's also the Historical Abstract definition of type-{A,B,C,D} HOF'ers.

>Were there a LOT of good 3rd basemen in that era?  Let's see, Brooks Robinson
>finished up his career at the beginning of Evans's career, as did Ron Santo. 
>We have the aforementioned Schmidt and Brett.  Wade Boggs came on at the end of
>Evans's days as a 3B.  I can't say much about Bell.  Certainly Ray Knight and
>Doug Decinces don't fit into this group.  Ron Cey?  From my feeble memories,
>I'd say he'd also fall short on ability, although he had a lot of postseason
>play and may make it anyways (ick!)  Didn't Molitor play some 3B once upon a
>time?  I'm certainly running out of names...any other candidates?

Pete Rose?  :)  Dave Johnson a fluke season or two in that time stretch.
Graig Nettles.  Molitor did play a lot of third base, though he may have
primarily been a 2B.

Evans stopped being a third baseman fairly early -- by 1984, he was
only there for about 20 games or so.
-- 
ted frank                     | thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu 
standard disclaimers          | void where prohibited
the university of chicago law school, chicago, illinois 60637
never shout movie in a crowded firestation
From: fierkelab@bchm.biochem.duke.edu
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Darrell Evans
Date: 11 Jan 93 16:07:56 GMT
Organization: Biochemistry

In article <1993Jan10.230244.1898@midway.uchicago.edu> thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu
(Ted Frank) writes:
>In article <8471@news.duke.edu> fierkelab@bchm.biochem.duke.edu writes:
>>What, you don't think Darrell Evans is a HOF player?  I'll agree that he's no
>>Reggie Jackson, but he was a pretty darn good 3rd baseman.  Great power,
great
>>eye, average batting average, decent glove at a moderately difficult
defensive
>>position.  Who in his era, (early 70's through mid-80's at 3B), other than
Mike
>>Schmidt, was a better 3B?  
>
>George Brett?  He's played full-time since 1974.  There's also Buddy Bell.
>
Ok, I stand corrected about Brett.  No need for anyone else to send E-mail. 
Big oops on my part.  However, without seeing Bell's stats, I wouldn't
necessarily go along here.
>
>A solid performer for a long period of time, probably a definition-C hall
>of famer.  But he doesn't match up to many of the criteria mentioned by
>James for a Hall of Famer.  Maybe he was the best player on his team for
>a few of the worse teams he played for.  He was a good enough player to
>continue playing well past his prime.  But he never came close to winning
>an MVP, and he played in an era when there were a lot of good third basemen.
>-- 
As I recall, Bill James' criteria were designed to PREDICT whom would be
elected to the HOF, not necessarily to decide who SHOULD be elected to the HOF.
 Using James'criteria would probably give Steve Garvey a better shot to be
elected to the HOF than Evans, since Garvey had all that postseason exposure
and appearances on the All-Star team.  But I'd still say that Evans was a
better player than Garvey, and if only one of the two should go, it should be
Evans.  Besides, the HOF is considerably short of 3Bmen.

Were there a LOT of good 3rd basemen in that era?  Let's see, Brooks Robinson
finished up his career at the beginning of Evans's career, as did Ron Santo. 
We have the aforementioned Schmidt and Brett.  Wade Boggs came on at the end of
Evans's days as a 3B.  I can't say much about Bell.  Certainly Ray Knight and
Doug Decinces don't fit into this group.  Ron Cey?  From my feeble memories,
I'd say he'd also fall short on ability, although he had a lot of postseason
play and may make it anyways (ick!)  Didn't Molitor play some 3B once upon a
time?  I'm certainly running out of names...any other candidates?


Eric Roush			Deck us all with Boston Charlie
fierkelab@			Walla Walla Wash and Kalamazoo!
bchm.biochem.duke.edu	Nora's freezin' on the Trolley,
				Swaller Dollar Cauliflower Alla-ga-Roo!

				Walt Kelley
From: fierkelab@bchm.biochem.duke.edu
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Who was drafted befor "Big Hurt"? (Was: Re: Clark v Thomas)
Date: 12 Jan 93 19:07:40 GMT
Organization: Biochemistry

In article <steph.726791637@pegasus.cs.uiuc.edu> steph@pegasus.cs.uiuc.edu
(Dale Stephenson) writes:
>In <1ispngINNg3a@lynx.unm.edu> kbos@carina.unm.edu (K. Mitchell Bose) writes:
>[...]
>
>>The players drafted before Thomas were:
>
>>Ben McDonald, Orioles
>>Tyler Houston, Braves
>[...]
>ARRGGGGHHH!!!
>Wouldn't Frank Thomas have looked good in a Braves uniform?
>-- 
Especially since Tyler Houston hasn't even looked good in a Durham Bulls
uniform!


Eric Roush			Deck us all with Boston Charlie
fierkelab@			Walla Walla Wash and Kalamazoo!
bchm.biochem.duke.edu	Nora's freezin' on the Trolley,
				Swaller Dollar Cauliflower Alla-ga-Roo!

				Walt Kelley
From: frodo@marie.physik.tu-berlin.de (Frank Wagner)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: rule-question
Date: 4 Jan 1993 11:28:41 GMT
Organization: ZRZ/TU-Berlin
NNTP-Posting-Host: marie.physik.tu-berlin.de

1) Why no infield-fly is called, if there is a runner on 1st only ?

2) If a fly ball is caught in foul-territory, is it dead or may the
   runners tag up and try to reach the next base ?
From: pcaster@mizar.usc.edu (Dodger)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Dodgers sign Parrish and Ritchie
Date: 8 Jan 1993 22:23:37 -0800
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: mizar.usc.edu

More crazy moves from Fred Claire...

Before I post further...is it possible that Fred Claire is actually
on the San Francisco Giants payroll?  His mission is to make sure
the Dodgers finish in last place.  Is there any other logical explanation
for Claire's moves?

Consider this one.  Mike Scioscia is considered washed up by Claire
at what, age 32?  So Claire goes out and signs Lance Parrish, age 36.
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense to me.  Uh huh!

And....considering those pitching rich Philadelphia Phillies, who
allowed us to sign Kevin Gross (how'd they let such talent get away?)
Claire again takes talent from those Phils, signing Ritchie.  Geez...
guess that will make up for the loss of Mike Morgan.  yeah...right!


These are surely the most trying times in the past 4 decades for 
us Dodger fans <heavy sigh>

					BleedsDodgerBlue

Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball