From: martin.baines@uk.sun.com (Martin Baines - Sun UK - SE Manager Cambridge)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.british
Subject: Re: Accent and Dialect, the politics there
Date: 13 Nov 1992 13:50:36 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems Ltd
Distribution: world
Reply-To: martin.baines@uk.sun.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: bottomdog.uk.sun.com


Arghh, I promised myself I wouldn't get involved in this
thread anymore: I believe these are political issues,
not linguistic ones, see the posts reagrding the
impossibility of drawing a hard and fast line between
what is dialect/language. But here I go again....

In article 3950@rdg.dec.com, cockburn@edieng.enet.dec.com (Craig Cockburn) writes:
[delete question asking for examples of Scots]
>Some examples of Scots grammar:
>and for all you people living in England, the US, Canada etc who say 
>"I've heard that here". Well, Scots have emigrated/been transported all
>over the world and many took their language with them.

What we have here are (at least) 2 issues: one is the spoken language
and syntax, the other the written language. Many of the differences
between the Scots and English are much less pronounced when rendered
in the spoken form than written. It could be argued that the Scots
forms are just one extream of the spoken form of (standard) English
orthography (e.g. many Yorkshire dialect words are more similar
to the Scots than the standard English: but Yorkshire keeps using
standard orthography, it doesn't these days spell them differently).

Similarly many of the differences in syntax, are mirrored in other
dialects of English spoken around the world.

>
>1) Scots: "The car needs washed"
>   English: "The car needs a wash" / "The car needs washing"
>
>2) Scots has different 2nd person pronouns. English just has "you",
>   Scots has "you" and "yous"

As does spoken English in parts of the USA.

>
>3) Scots, like Gaelic, has a triple comparative "that, that, yon"
>   English doesn't have this

Except in forms of Yorkshire and Northumberland dialect.

>4) There is a loss of distinction between the past tense and the past
>   participle: "I done it" , "we havnae went"

Again a very common mutation in spoken English: my mother (from Kent)
regularly says "I done it", "I gone".

>5) There is more use of double negatives
>   "You never telt me naethin about it"

Very common in most spoken English: It can be argued that
use of double negatives is one area Standard English
needs bringing up to date with actual use.

>6) Different use of the definite article to English:
>   "the day" (=today), "He's got the cold", "the flu", "he's at the scuil",
>   "in the hospital" , "awa tae the kirk"

Use of "the" like this is very similar in East Anglian dialects.

>7) Use of prepositions is different to English
>   "get chased fae the polis", "feart for the dog", "waitin on his frein"
>
>8) In verbs, a -s ending is regularly used for forms other then the third
>   person singular ie. "when the kye comes hame", "...an she says....an I says"

"...an she says....an I says" again could be said by my mother: certainly
common in Kent.


etc etc.

The point I am making, is that Scots can very easily and legitimately
be viewed as just another form of the spoken language space refered
to as English: it certainly differs no more than (say) Caribbean
or Indian English from the standard. Whether any of these are viewed
as separate languages is purely a political question.

As for the question of orthography (spelling) how about a really
radical solution: lets adopt Hanzi, it looks much nicer! Ooops
I have just opened up the arguement as to whether we use traditional
or simplified characters, you can't win.....

Martin

---
"You might say that, but I couldn't possibly comment"

Martin Baines, Sales Support Manager,
Sun Microsystems Ltd, 306 Science Park, Cambridge, CB4 4WG, UK
Phone: +44 223 420421                 Fax: +44 223 420257
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