HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: bc@Apple.COM (bill coderre)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Re: Why I couldn't take AA & why I bother to complain about it
Date: 28 Sep 92 16:27:38 GMT
Organization: Apple Computer Inc, Cupertino, CA

There are undoubtedly a few "AAtheists" reading these words: people
who don't believe in/don't know about/outright hate/whatever "God as
they understand him" and yet are successfully working 12-step
programs. Please tell me: 

Do you have a Higher Power? Who/What is it?

If you don't have a Higher Power, what do you do instead?

How do you, as an "AAtheist", interpret the 12 steps?

Could I politely request that people who want to, share their
experiences in a non-argumentative way. I am not interested in finding
the "best" or "only" way, just in hearing about a number of peoples'
personal recovery journeys.

Thank you. It will help a lot.

bill coderre
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: ssalter@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (-=[SLS]=-)
Subject: Re: ANY A vs. Anything ?
Organization: OFSA
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 21:57:29 GMT

schmitt@convex.com (Herb Schmitt) asks:

>
>I also implore everyone to continue to discuss recovery from ALL angles,
>not just the ones meeting one's logical standards. You ARE reading this
>group because YOU dont have the answers...right?
>


No, I already HAVE all the answers. It is just defining all the
questions I am working on right now.

:)
From: al037@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Dave Polewka)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Re: 'Playing the Odds'
Date: 2 Oct 1992 04:54:18 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: al037@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Dave Polewka)
NNTP-Posting-Host: slc4.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, schmitt@convex.com (Herb Schmitt) says:

>AA doesn't work by 'logic' (for me)! AA doesn't work (for me) by analyzing
>first and then if I decide its ok, doing. AA works (for me) by 1st DOING,
>then coming to understand...

Right!  We don't think our way into good acting--we act our way
into good thinking!  


-- 
=======================
"Endeavor to persevere"
=======================
From: tibbits@sisal.llnl.gov (Patrick Tibbits)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Re: RR vs. AA, or RR + AA?
Date: 30 Sep 92 04:53:17 GMT
Organization: Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory

It is perhaps entirely possible to stay clean and sober without 
taking personal inventory and without making amends to those 
wronged. The initial impression given by much of this RR material
is that these ethics (rules governing behaviour) are not needed. 
It has been said in AA meetings in my hearing that "cash register"
honesty is not important; one can cheat his neighbor as long as 
he admits it to himself. Perhaps thesefolk will stay sober, but
I don't really give a shit whether they do or not.

Patrick
From: weiss872@POTLATCH.CS.UIDAHO.EDU (Phil Weiss)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Re: Lets Have A Mail Meating
Date: 30 Sep 92 18:17:30 GMT

Thanks Dave.

Hello, my name is Phil.

I'd like to tell you what I was like.  I was self-centered.  I had
voices running through my head 90 miles a minute; what some
alcoohlics might call their committee.  I couldn't stop drinking.
Oh, I could stop every once in a while, but something would
inevitably come up.

I once managed to get three weeks of sobriety after throwing up
in front of a girl I wantd to impress during a hangover.  Then
someone challenged me to a drinking contest, and it never occurred
to me that I might not stop once I won the contest.

What happened was that I ran out of options.  Until recently, that
was the only way I changed anything I did.  When I had absolutely
no reasonable alternative anymore.  It was either die, or get
help.

What I am like now is hard to describe.  I could tell you all sorts
of un-humble things baout how I am not self-centered or egotistical
anymore.  I once attended a meeting on the 7th step where everyone
talked about how humble they had to become to do the step.

What I can tell you is that I have found the fourth dimension of
existence.  That isn't so flaky as it sounds.  All it means is that
I am radically different from anything I expected or used to be
like.  It's like a person who existed in a 2-dimensional piece
of paper.  If you were to set a Coke can down beside the paper, all
the 2-D person would recognize would be the circle that exists
on that piece of paper.  The whole shape and taste and feel of the
can wouldn't be known.  I've tasted Coke.

Phil.
From: carty@vnet.ibm.com (Jeff Carty)
Subject: Re: Lords Prayer
News-Software: IBM OS/2 PM RN (NR/2) v0.14 by O. Vishnepolsky and R. Rogers
Reply-To: carty@vnet.ibm.com (Jeff Carty)
Organization: IBM PSP Palo Alto, Ca.
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 92 13:26:33 GMT

In  <1091.779.uupcb@factory.com>  bruce.baer@factory.com (Bruce Baer)  writes:
>       Refference to the Lords Prayer is in Mathew 6:9. It is usually
> high-lighted in red as the words are spoken by Jesus as a lesson in how
> to pray. Note: Jesus was still alive and well, Christianity or the

BAB, you wrote *Matthew* 6:9.  I honestly can't think of any religion with
a chapter in its book called "Matthew" except Christianity.

>       So, If ya wanna bicker - go ahead. But, your bickering about
> an issue that makes no sense to bicker about. Those that choose to

My idea of "bickering" would be knocking others, setting their ideas up as
strawmen to put the person down (vs.  describing one's own truth),
name-calling, sarcasm, i.e., all forms of discourse whose intent is mutual
hostility and/or misunderstanding, rather than mutual expression and
understanding.  That has probably gone on in this newsgroup before (even
recently).  But I haven't seen much of it lately.  Perhaps you've misread
the discussion threads, or, perhaps I'm unduly oblivious to "bickering"
when it occurs ?

Jeff
From: Christic Institute <christic@igc.apc.org>
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Date: 05 Oct 92 16:31 PDT
Subject: Re: Why I couldn't take AA & why I both
Nf-ID: #R:bu.edu:96741:cdp:1309900064:000:2731
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!christic    Oct  5 16:31:00 1992


(This is a response to the discussion on the use of the Lord's 
Prayer in AA meetings. The title at this site is truncated, so
it may not be posted in the right sequence.)

Mark, I respect your right to feel uncomfortable when people around
you are using the Lord's Prayer.  Prayer is a very personal thing,
and that's one reason I'm against prayer in public schools (in any
form) mandated by the state.

It's not true, however, that the text in the New Testament is a
"specifically and exclusively Christian prayer."  I learned this 
from my thesis mentor, a rabbi in the Conservative Movement who
taught Jewish studies at a predominantly Roman Catholic university.
His exegesis of the "Lord's Prayer" showed what a number of Bible
scholars have been saying for years, namely, that the text is a
typical prayer of the early rabbinic period and strongly resembles
prayers found in the Talmud and other Jewish sources dating to 
same period.

For instance, there simply is no reference to the triune God or
the doctrine of the Holy Trinity in the prayer.  The word "Father"
in the original Aramaic text is probably "Abba"--the familiar
word a child uses to address his/her parent, therefore suggesting
a close and intimate relationship with God.  The concept of the
Trinity is nowhere to be found in the Lord's Prayer, and in any
event did not evolve in the Christian religion until some time
_after_ the various Gospel texts, including the Lord's Prayer,
were assembled.

My mentor felt he could strongly identify with the Lord's Prayer
as Jewish liturgical poetry.  He identified the following concepts
as entirely consistent with Jewish tradition:

--God is our parent: We can confidently address him in prayer.

--God's name should be kept holy.

--God's kingdom is coming.  (A Jewish messianic idea _borrowed_ by
Christians.  The "second coming of Christ" is nowhere mentioned in
the text.)

--God's Torah should be obeyed on earth as it is in heaven.

--We can ask God for our basic needs, our "daily bread."

--We can ask God to forgive our sins, but we must forgive those who
sin against us.

--We can ask God to save us when we are tested, and to deliver us
from evil.

Most, and perhaps all of these ideas can be easily transplanted into
other religious traditions:  They are by no means unique to Judaism
or Christianity.  From my point of view, the Lord's Prayer is one
of the finest _universal_ prayers--provided one believes there is a
God who can be addressed in prayer.

But I think the important issue here is not what I think about the
prayer, but rather how you interpret it.  If the text makes you un-
comfortable, then you should not expose yourself to a situation 
where you are expected to say it.

Andy Lang
From: mbs@odaat.lkg.dec.com (Mark Sawyer)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Re: Why I couldn't take AA & why I bother to complain about it
Date: 2 Oct 92 16:54:23 GMT
Reply-To: mbs@odaat.lkg.dec.com.UUCP (Mark Sawyer)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corp., Littleton, MA, USA

In article <1992Oct1.004511.3545@netcom.com> enigma@netcom.com (Enigma) writes:
>In article <1992Sep30.224048.27719@sobeco.com> alawrenc@sobeco.com writes:
>>In <1992Sep30.043103.2890@netcom.com> enigma@netcom.com (Enigma) writes:
>>
>>>Yeah, I agree.  I used to just change the words around to suit myself
>>>(Our creator, who art everywhere, hallowed be thy names...), but I
>>>think the Serenity Prayer would be a much better choice.  Quite a few
>>>groups use that one anyway.  Why use a prayer that has so many negative
>>>connotations for so many people?
>>
>>Perhaps because if has so many positive connotations for the majority.
>>...
>My life is based on my Higher Power too.  But if saying the Lord's
>Prayer keeps even one person away from *A, I feel that it should
>not be said.

The relevant A.A. Traditions as I see it are:

    2. "For our group purpose there is but one ultimate authority --
        a loving God as He may express Himself in our group
        conscience.  Our leaders are but trusted servants; they do
        not govern.

    4. "Each group should be autonomous except in matters affecting
        other groups or A.A. as a whole."

There is nothing written or implied anywhere regarding what prayers
may or may not be said at A.A. meetings.  It is left up to each
groups "group conscience".

Maybe you have already done this but ...

If it bothers you that a group recites the Lord's Prayer as part of
the meeting format, join the group and make your feelings known at
the next group business meeting.  If you become an active
participant in the "group process", maybe you can effect a change.

Maybe the group conscience will change.  Maybe it won't.  If the
group conscience doesn't change to align itself with your way of
thinking, then say the Serenity Prayer :-) At least you will have
tried.

1daat ... Mark
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mark B. Sawyer                | Distributed Processing Engineering
Digital Equipment Corporation | EASYnet: tuxedo::m_sawyer
550 King Street (LKG2-2/Z7)   | ARPAnet: m_sawyer@tuxedo.enet.dec.com
Littleton, MA 01460-1289      | Usenet : us1rmc!tuxedo.enet.dec.com!m_sawyer
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Disclaimer: The views expressed herein are my own and do not necessarily
            reflect those of my employer.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: alawrenc@sobeco.com (a.lawrence)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Re: Why I couldn't take AA & why I bother to complain about it
Date: 30 Sep 92 22:40:48 GMT
Reply-To: alawrenc@sobeco.com
Organization: Lawrence & Assc.

In <1992Sep30.043103.2890@netcom.com> enigma@netcom.com (Enigma) writes:

>Yeah, I agree.  I used to just change the words around to suit myself
>(Our creator, who art everywhere, hallowed be thy names...), but I
>think the Serenity Prayer would be a much better choice.  Quite a few
>groups use that one anyway.  Why use a prayer that has so many negative
>connotations for so many people?

>Holly

Perhaps because if has so many positive connotations for the majority.
I am not a religious or church going person, but my life is now based
upon faith in a God I rever.  Each time I say the Lord's prayer, each
line reminds of the principles I have adopted and the values I now hold
precious.  I will never insist the my home group _must_ use this prayer
(the topic comes up annually) by I would sincerely regret seeing it
abandonned.

-- 
If any given program runs correctly, it is obsolete.
=========================================================================
Andrew Lawrence, Informaticien Conseil           |  alawrenc@sobeco.com
3605 St-Urbain, #1605                            |  uunet!sobeco!alawrenc
From: iscjcw@uccvma.ucop.edu (Jerry Wilcox)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Let's Get On With Recovery
Followup-To: alt.recovery
Date: 28 Sep 1992 15:51:52 GMT
Organization: University of California, Office of the President
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: ajax.ucop.edu

I agree with bill coderre, I'm perfectly willing to listen to Richard
Carnes or anyone else INFORM me about RR, or any other program which might
offer me something. I am tired of listening to him endlessly bemoan a
program (AA) which I credit with having saved my life back.

-----------
Jerry Wilcox - iscjcw@uccvma.ucop.edu
All opinions expressed are MINE -- I'd have a different job if the
University wanted me to speak for it.
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: maxwell@lamar.ColoState.EDU (Mark Story)
Subject: Forest for the trees
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1992 07:14:50 GMT
Organization: Colorado State University, Fort Collins, CO  80523

I hate to use such a cliche, but that is how I feel about this group.

I do not expect, realistically, to find the solution to my alcohol problem by
reading this newsgroup.  To be honest, I have no idea where the solution lies.
Should I trust AA?  RR?  Should I believe in a HP?  Should I follow the 12 
steps?  Should I believe in God?  Is the power going to be external or 
internal?  Am I truly powerless, or do I suffer from a weak will?

In the past few months, I have met several wise people through email who are 
presumably regular readers of this group.  For that, I am thankful, and it is
helpful to have the luxury of people who can relate well to my problem.

Yet now I read this group and it seems that the majority of the postings are
people arguing over what is the 'correct way' to achieve and maintain 
sobriety.  I read the postings and gain very little new perspective.  Often
it seems to me that this folks are just taking advantage of this group to 
unleash their egos, to demand that their view on life is sacred.  I really 
don't see the value of this!

On the other hand, I am drunk now, and I guess that makes my opinions useless.

Sorry for the mindless babbling.  I forget now what I was trying to say.

Mark
From: joni@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (joni.dunlap)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Re: 'Playing the Odds'
Date: 5 Oct 92 18:05:28 GMT
Organization: AT&T

In article <1992Oct3.203558.118@cis.ohio-state.edu> fullerto@eggplant.cis.ohio-state.edu (timothy dwight fullerton) writes:
>
>>In <97348@bu.edu> ccmlh@buitc.bu.edu (Mark Hayes) writes:
>>
>>>Sure, you can ACT like you believe. You can stand up and babble about
>>>God until your face turns blue. But this still isn't believing. If
>>>your reason AND instincts tell you that there is no God, you can
>>>read on up on the subject and do a whole lot of other things, but
>>>if in the end you still don't believe, there's just nothing you can
>>>do about it, unless you hire a professional brainwasher (who might,
>>>actually, employ techniques similar to those used by AA).
>>
>
>	Actually, you just undid your own argument. Yes, AA uses brainwashing
>techniques. No one, to my knowledge, has ever disputed it, and no one has ever
>expressed a belief to me that it is anything but a wonderful thing. Are you
>suggesting that they are less effective when ingrained into a sixty year old
>organization than when performed by an individual?
>
>	The mere act of pretending that you believe something that you don't
>or behaving as though you do IS frequently enough to effect that change of
>attitude after some period of time.*  For me it came about that I did things
>that I had previously not been capable of, things turned out in my favor
>coincidentally with prayer to an imaginary God, and I achieved an affective
>and cognitive state that I could only describe as conscious contact with God.
>In short, ultimately it felt right, and my life was working out much better 
>than it had been before.
>
>	MOST of my AA friends entered the program as devout Atheists. One
>of them still is. Would it be an outlandish guess, then, to say that something
>is powerful enough to evangalize 199 out of 200 or so acquaintances?
>
>	Best Wishes
>
>		Tim
>
>*look up Cognitive Dissonance theory 

Someone once said in a meeting: You know when I first came into this program
I was also seeing a therapist and I said to the therapist that I think
that AA is trying to brain wash me. My therapist replyed you could use
a brain washing.

My best thinking got me here!!!

Joni :)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: moy@acf3.NYU.EDU (Gloria J. Moy,N.DORM C3,(212)9983456,)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Re: special interest AA groups
Date: 26 Sep 92 18:38:00 GMT
Organization: New York University


I've gone to AA meetings that are mainly Lesbian meetings and I felt at
home there. I now also attend a church for the Gay and Lesbian community
which I look forward to every week. Its great to go to a place where I
am accepted just as I am, without having to bribe people to like me.
So is the case with special interest groups in AA.

the bottom line, is do what you need to do for you. you can always get
up
and leave if you don't like it.
From: baughman@ctron.com (Chris Baughman)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Re: Why I couldn't take AA & why I bother to complain about it
Date: 28 Sep 92 13:55:46 GMT
Reply-To: baughman@olympus.ctron.com (Chris Baughman)
Organization: Cabletron Systems INc.

I have seen many people complaining on this notesfile about
the aspect of religon in AA and other recovery programs. For
what it is worth, I have to agree. Myself, and more so some of my
friends could probably benefit from these and other programs.
Unfortunately the religous nature keeps me away. 

I have no personal use for organized religon. If many people feel
they need a traditional spiritual context to help them gain whatever
form of peace they were looking for, I think that is great. The
higher power phrasing does little to alleviate this pain. Personally,
I think I would be much more interested in a group that avoids
this sort of thing.

As it is, I muddle along as best I can grabbing what inspiration  
I can get from the reality around me. I am young (26) and was not
brought up in a religous household. Perhaps there is a need for
a new approach for a generation brought up in a very dfferent
world with very different problems. Well, thats my .02, thanks
for listening.

Chris
baughman@olympus,ctron.com
From: weiss@LEOPARD.CS.UIDAHO.EDU (Phil Weiss)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Step 10 (my daily experience)
Date: 2 Oct 92 17:18:48 GMT


[ In response to someone else's post on the 12-step recovery list
  I posted this.  If you see it both places... it's because I
  posted it both. ]

I learned to do my steps straight from the Big Book.  What it told
me was that I was to watch for resentment, anger, self-centeredness
(maybe selfishness, don't have a copy of the BB handy), and fear.

Those are my keys to when I need to take inventory.

If I don't have any of those, then I don't need to make amends.

When my mouth talks before my head thinks is usually a good
situation for self-centeredness, so I take inventory.  If
something really occupies my head, I will even do a four-column
(the format listed in the 4th step in the BB).

Oh, and I always must pray before I take inventory.  Ask God
to take my will and my feelings and my wants and my desires
out of the process and enable me to look objectively at myself.

Phil.
--
Philip Weiss    Laboratory for Applied Logic    weiss@leopard.cs.uidaho.edu
(Disclaimer: My views are not their views)      weiss872@snake.cs.uidaho.edu
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: mbs@odaat.lkg.dec.com (Mark Sawyer)
Subject: Re: Why I couldn't take AA & why I bother to complain about it
Reply-To: mbs@odaat.lkg.dec.com.UUCP (Mark Sawyer)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corp., Littleton, MA, USA
Distribution: na
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 16:37:11 GMT

In article <1992Sep30.044103.3531@netcom.com> enigma@netcom.com (Enigma) writes:
>... just 
>because everyone in the room is insisting that 2 + 2 = 5, doesn't mean
>I'm going to doubt myself and believe it.

    Langer's lemma:

        2 + 2 = 5

    for sufficiently large values of 2.

    1daat ... Mark
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mark B. Sawyer                | Distributed Processing Engineering
Digital Equipment Corporation | EASYnet: tuxedo::m_sawyer
550 King Street (LKG2-2/Z7)   | ARPAnet: m_sawyer@tuxedo.enet.dec.com
Littleton, MA 01460-1289      | Usenet : us1rmc!tuxedo.enet.dec.com!m_sawyer
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Disclaimer: The views expressed herein are my own and do not necessarily
            reflect those of my employer.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: bc@apple.com (bill coderre)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Can we possibly stop bashing AA and get on with recovering?
Date: 26 Sep 92 09:36:11 GMT
Organization: Apple Computer Inc, Cupertino, CA


Consider this a request, Richard Carnes. I want to hear facts about
different recovery programs, not accusations about AA.

I understand that you don't like the spiritual content of the Steps.
But you have turned this dislike into a crusade of misinformation and
lies. Why?

More than two people have asked about your alternate recovery
programs. We honestly do want to hear about Rational Recovery, or
whatever, because more information cannot possibly hurt us.

But instead of telling us about RR, you have used this as an excuse to
piss on AA yet again, with more blatantly stupid lies about the
program. It takes a real idiot to see the first step ("we came to
realize that we were powerless over our addictions") as an excuse to
pursue those addictions. And a buffoon to mock this idea by claiming
that AA believes that alcoholics don't think they can control their
muscles.

Even a "tweaking newbie" can see that the only reason you are whining
this hard is that you have some kind of giant chip on your shoulder
about the AA-related programs.

Tell us about RR, or SS, or TT, if you like, but please stop with the
whining about how HORRIBLE and EVIL the DREAD CULT OF AA is.

Stick to criticizing that which you comprehend, and in some other
newsgroup. This one happens to be about recovery, not cults, mind
control, or religion. Those groups are down the hall, to the left.

bill coderre
every usenet newsgroup has its own fanatic shithead