HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: hall@bcstec.ca.boeing.com (Robert J. Hall)
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
Subject: Re: net.rpg (comments on the faq)
Date: 19 Nov 92 21:26:57 GMT
Organization: Boeing Computer Services, Seattle

In article <1ee6hfINN9jf@charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu>, tdunn@ecst.csuchico.edu (I Need a Life) writes:
> 4) I'm thinking of following SOS's path and factionalizing the 
>    discussion further so that there are a few choices in the topics.
>    Perhaps Rob Hall@boeing was more miffed that it was all one thread
>    and no choice but that one thread.

Actually I was not in the least bit miffed, and I was hoping my suggestion
would be taken in the spirit it was presented - as a polite, politically-
correct request to follow standard netiquette procedure in these cases. I.e.
if a topic generates sufficient volume, it should receive its own group, or
be replaced by a mail server.

Unfortunately it was not to be, and some anal-retentive types took it upon
themselves to follow the mob mentality and begin dictating terms about group
usage. My understanding is that this group is for the discussion of the 
theory and practice of game design, not for the actual development of games.
If that is not the case, I stand corrected. Sheeit!!!

-- 
 Bob Hall                   |
 Boeing Computer Services   |  Behind every dark cloud,
 root@chicken.ca.boeing.com |  there's a Seattle Skyline.
From: mich@cwi.nl (M. Hazewinkel)
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
Subject: Re: 3D map appearance in a computer game
Date: 16 Nov 92 14:13:19 GMT
Organization: CWI, Amsterdam

>While I'm here, thanks to everyone who responded to my initial question
>on this topic! I'm familiar with the _Elite_ system, and was considering
>it as an option. I'm still finding it hard to believe the programmers
>patented it! Gads, I can't afford to pay royalties out of a shareware fee!
>
>David Mar.                                      mar@physics.su.OZ.AU
>Astrophysics Department, University of Sydney  NSW  2006, Australia.

Well, I don't know much about patenting things, but when I asked
someone here, he said that it would be very doubtful if such a thing
could actually be patented. Before giving up, I'd check whether it
actually IS patented. It might be they tried to patent it, and
failed.

Maarten Hazewinkel
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
From: dmatiske@nd.edu (David Matiskella)
Subject: Re: net.rpg -Build?
Followup-To: rec.games.design
Organization: University of Notre Dame
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 22:10:38 GMT

In article <1992Nov17.171530.25641@klaava.Helsinki.FI>,
jliukkon@klaava.Helsinki.FI (Juha-Matti Liukkonen) wrote:
> 
> apace@mta.ca writes:
> 
> >I think that the idea of splitting build into height and weight into two
> >seperate stats is a bad one.  For starters, I thought that we were aiming
> >for minimalism.  Secondly, I disagree with the rationale for the secondary
> >stats.  Believe me, being tall tends to make you less agile, not more. 
> >(In my experience at least).  
> 
> I think it simply being tall wouldn't affect your agility; it's the
> proportionality and muscle control. Increase in tallness would tip the
> balance, but then again, on the average you don't grow a lot after a
> given age. That means that it's quite likely one has learned to use
> his/her body as it is after maturity.
> 
> The reason I thought it might be good to separate height and weight was
> that 1) if you're tall, you're bound to have longer stride, and 2) with
> separate weight, we can account for mis-proportions (see above) like
> over- or underweight (which affect movement, hit points, fatigue
> level...)
Yes you do have a longer stride but after a certain hieght you can no
longer turn
 your legs over as fast.  The fastest sprinters are between 5'10" and 6'2"
with very
few outside this range. Note that in endurance sports like running their
are only a
handful of people who are over 6'and still world class.Wieght also has very
little to
 do with strength. A person who ways 300 pounds but who has a body fat of
30% is not 
going to be as strong asa person weighing 240 with 5% body fat. In addition
wieght 
depends upon bonedensity and the percentage of body that is made up of
water both 
which differ fromindividual to individual.
From: jliukkon@klaava.Helsinki.FI (Juha-Matti Liukkonen)
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
Subject: Re: Atributes, a different way
Date: 24 Nov 92 01:55:06 GMT
Organization: University of Helsinki

stv@unislc.uucp (Steve Spencer) writes:

>Each stat (Strength, Agility, Mind, and Personality), have two
>substats for them: Passive, and Agressive (for lack of a better word).
>Passive stats are in effect all the time. And agressive stats are things
>you need to be concentrating on to do. For instance, someone with
>a really good Agressive Agility, but a poor Passive Agility, might be
>a good sword fighter, bow shooter, etc, but they tend to be clumsy
>when their mind is on other things. They might be great at picking 
>locks, but don't trust them for sneaking around.

Intriguing idea... Not for ultimate reality, perhaps, but most certainly
an interesting idea.
-- 
               Juha Liukkonen, aka jliukkon@cc.helsinki.fi
            University of Helsinki, Dept. of Monkey Business
                                 --O--
           "Trust me, I know what I'm doing." - Sledge Hammer
From: bell@pooh.cs.unc.edu (Andrew Bell)
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
Subject: Re: Random vs. Point Alloc CharGen
Date: 23 Nov 92 20:48:26 GMT
Followup-To: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Organization: The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill

(Note: some of you may wonder why I've followed up to this posting twice.
In the interested of a more harmonious net, I've cancelled my last post
and posted a "kinder, gentler" follow-up...)

In article <17690@mindlink.bc.ca> Nick_Janow@mindlink.bc.ca (Nick Janow) writes:
>bell@beethoven.cs.unc.edu (Andrew Bell) writes:
>>I say any *player* can use randomness with any point generation system,...

>Yes, and you can use a metal-cased modem to pound in a nail...but it doesn't
>work as well as a tool designed for that task.

Hmm, let's see...s$^%#$eems t*&do wo&^%rk ok...:-)

>Essentially you seem to be
>saying "design the system for type A gamers (who prefer balanced PA the way
>*Andrew Bell* likes it), and let everyone else make do with unsatisfactory
>kludges."

Please explain your reasons for finding rolling dice with a point balance
constraint to be an "unsatisfactory kludge."  Thank you.

   Andrew Bell
bell@cs.unc.edu
From:  (Spike)
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
Subject: Net.rpg: Lifepath
Date: 16 Nov 92 19:10:39 GMT
Followup-To: rec.games.design
Organization: GE Power Generation

Magnus, I have reservations about the "lifepath" 
method of generating a character. Perhaps I'm 
misunderstanding, but it seems like you would
have to have a phenomenal program to let you
generate the wide range of characters I have 
been known to play. Would it be possible to 
produce a star pilot or a primitive peasant farmer?
If it can't, then it wouldn't be flexible enough to 
satisfy me.

Sorry for this niggling, but I am reminded of the 
Traveller character gen system, it which it was
possible to die while rolling a character! My 
feeling has always been that all aspects of a
character's life *prior* to beginning play (subject
to GM approval, of course) should be up to the
player. To compare it to your point of view, 
instead of starting with raw materials and 
turning it into a finished product, you would be
identifying the type of individual you wanted to 
play, and creating someone to fill that role. Look
at it this way: somebody has to be a four-star 
general, right? So if you want to play one, you 
pick out someone who obviously got all the right
options in his "lifepath."

Finally, I also usually build a character to conception 
and then try to imagine what events forged that 
being into exactly that shape. I do this "reverse
engineering" for two reasons: first, I don't *need*
to know every single detail of the character's life
to enjoy playing him. Also, this leaves me in 
complete control, letting me play exactly the character
I want to.

Hmm. I guess this turned into yet another "point
alloc vs. random" argument. Apologies.

Spike
Newsgroups: rec.games.design,rec.games.frp.misc,rec.games.frp
From: gdg019@cch.coventry.ac.uk (Ridley McIntyre)
Subject: Re: Stars
Organization: Pig Heaven, Coventry, UK
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 17:12:58 GMT

In article <Af23KT200WBNQ7MZkP@andrew.cmu.edu> William Henry Timmins <wt0b+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
>I'm interested in star information. Basically, a list of stars
>(particularly singular main sequence F G and K stars) in the vicinity,
>class/type/mass, and position.
>
>I'd like electronic info, please. I've had enormous difficulties trying
>to find something useful in the libraries (most list stars by
>brightness, so that FGK stars are rarely indicated)
>
>The population I am interested in, singular F/G/K V stars, should be
>obvious (for science fiction stellar systems)

The best one I have seen (I asked a similar question here and on sci.space)
is a map and catalogue that comes with the 2300AD RPG. It gives you a map
of stars near and around Sol and the catalogue lists their types and locations.

Hope this helps,
-- 
                  Ridley McIntyre - Ronin Ironpig
*On a Flowery	     gdg019@cck.coventry.ac.uk          Space Trip!*
		 ---------------------------------
        "Ahoy and avast, political analysts!" - Capt. Fishy
Date: Sunday, 15 November 1992 04:14:56 PDT
X-Mailer: TMail version 1.06
From: "Anton Dovydaitis" <anton@anton.infoserv.com>
Organization: Ishi Press International
Subject: game system
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
Distribution: world

Around 1982, in reaction to the large number of increasingly
complex roleplaying games coming up, I developed the following
system, shich I called Tapestry.  It is the simplest possible
roleplaying system, and can be taught to anyone, gamer or non-
gamer, in five minutes.

The basic game mechanic is this: whenever any outcome is not
certain, the referee first fixes in their mind what they expect
to happen under the circumstances.  Then (and only then) the
referee rolls (or asks the player to roll) 2d6.  If the dice roll
6-8, what the referee expects to happen happens.  If the dice total
9 or better, it turns out better than expected; 5 or less, worse.

I tested this system over three years with approximately three
hundred players.  Although the vast majority had never played a RPG
before, they caught on quite quickly, and were soon role playing.

---
---------------------------------------------------------------

Anton Dovydaitis
Ishi Press International
From:  (Spike)
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
Subject: Re: Random vs. Point Alloc CharGen
Date: 16 Nov 92 19:17:51 GMT
Followup-To: rec.games.design
Organization: GE Power Generation

In article <1992Nov16.032939.10960@alf.uib.no>, magnus@bark-fddi.ii.uib.no
(Magnus Alvestad) wrote:
> A more interesting problem is what to do with munckins - should the
> character generation rules prevent the creation of a super-powerful
> character? Should there be balancing-features like in TW2000? 
> 
> Or should we just let them play powerful characters. And hope that
> they have fun, or if they don't, that they will create a Real
> character the next time around.
> 
> -Magnus

I think we should include instructions on character optimization.
If the munckins want to minmax, let them. It's their game. At the
same time, if people want to look out for this sort of thing, it
offers the GM an education into what *not* to allow.

On a side note, last weekend I played Chill (the Mayfair version) at
a friend's house. I needed a character quickly and couldn't think
of a concept to save my life, so I decided to roll d% for the stats,
in the hope that this would give me something to go on. After trying
this three or four times, I suddenly found that I had a great concept
to build from - I hated the rolls I was coming up with so much, I didn't
want to get stuck playing a character I didn't much care for, so I 
*forced* myself to think!

Spike
From: jkut@diku.dk (Jonatan Kutchinsky)
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
Subject: Make a net.rpg newsgroup!
Date: 18 Nov 92 19:33:19 GMT
Organization: Department of Computer Science, U of Copenhagen

Why don't you make a net.rpg newsgroup, where you can discuss this subject?
It would spare readers that are less interested in this particular project
from reading through several pages of article titles. It also seems to me
that this discussion could be going on almost permanently.

*****************************************************************************
        Jonatan Kutchinsky, Copenhagen, Denmark. E-mail: jkut@diku.dk
*****************************************************************************
From: jliukkon@klaava.Helsinki.FI (Juha-Matti Liukkonen)
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
Subject: Re: net.rpg -Build?
Date: 17 Nov 92 17:15:30 GMT
Organization: University of Helsinki

apace@mta.ca writes:

>I think that the idea of splitting build into height and weight into two
>seperate stats is a bad one.  For starters, I thought that we were aiming
>for minimalism.  Secondly, I disagree with the rationale for the secondary
>stats.  Believe me, being tall tends to make you less agile, not more. 
>(In my experience at least).  

I think it simply being tall wouldn't affect your agility; it's the
proportionality and muscle control. Increase in tallness would tip the
balance, but then again, on the average you don't grow a lot after a
given age. That means that it's quite likely one has learned to use
his/her body as it is after maturity.

The reason I thought it might be good to separate height and weight was
that 1) if you're tall, you're bound to have longer stride, and 2) with
separate weight, we can account for mis-proportions (see above) like
over- or underweight (which affect movement, hit points, fatigue
level...)

>Why just not use the nice word Size.  We could have it positively
>affect hand-to-hand damage, as well as the amount of damage you can 
>absorb, but harm your quickness.

I've been using RuneQuest for quite a long time, and I really hate the
idea that all the characters of size x would be as tall and thin as
everyone else of that size.  No options for over/underweight influence. 
I fabricated a house rule for secondary size (+ or - of the official
size) which is the weight relative to the height, which in turn is
derived from the original size.  Now if the character has siz2 > 0, his
Move is calculated as his Dex was that much less (another house rule.)
Then again, the character's hit points are calculated as his siz would
be size+siz2; and fatigue is siz2 lower.  The great thing is, that I can
simply ignore the effects of siz2 for the characters that are of average
build. 

>Just a thought.

A noteworthy one. I think Size *should* be considered, but it isn't so
simple to express it conveniently...

>					Tony Pace
-- 
               Juha Liukkonen, aka jliukkon@cc.helsinki.fi
       University of Helsinki, Dept. of Paranormal Investigations
           "Trust me, I know what I'm doing." - Sledge Hammer
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
From: magnus@bark-fddi.ii.uib.no (Magnus Alvestad)
Subject: Re: net.rpg: Character Stats [based on skills]
Reply-To: magnus@ii.uib.no
Organization: UVBS -> SFK/T-DSA / SOPS - HOS / RNoN
	<1992Nov18.221344.3370@alf.uib.no> <1992Nov19.194427.1@kean.ucs.mun.ca>
	<20NOV199220532891@gergo.tamu.edu>
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 92 00:38:03 GMT

>>>>> On Sat, 21 Nov 1992 02:53:00 GMT, carl@gergo.tamu.edu (Carl D. Perkins) said:

	Carl> This is clearly nonsense. Someone who has never
	Carl> practiced the "agility increasing skills" could still
	Carl> have a high inate agility. They simply have not spent

Well, that might be so - but the player shouldn't know about it, so it
shouldn't be rolled up before it was needed. If the player ever got an
agility-related skill, maybe he found out he learned it amazingly
fast.

I'm not sure how to implement this, though. By letting you have a low,
unimportant agility as long as you don't have any of the skills below
it, and then letting you roll it when you learn something below it. 

Of course, those that despise rolling will have to find another way to
fix that one.

-Magnus
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
From: ketil@ii.uib.no (Ketil M. Malde)
Subject: Re: net.rpg: stats contn'd
Reply-To: ketil@ii.uib.no
Organization: student of numerical analysis at the University of Bergen, Norway
	<KETIL.92Nov16025050@sandel.ii.uib.no>
	<1992Nov16.022624.10682@alf.uib.no>
Date: 16 Nov 92 15:15:33

>>>>> On Mon, 16 Nov 92 02:26:24 GMT, magnus@bark-fddi.ii.uib.no (Magnus Alvestad) said:

>>>>> On 16 Nov 92 02:50:50, ketil@ii.uib.no (Ketil M. Malde) said:

	Ketil> Hmm..don't know about this, boolean - well, but text?
	Ketil> How would you go about using this in the game (i.e.
	Ketil> generate other values from it, tables that use this
	Ketil> value, etc)?

	M> Well, not all stats will have to be used for numerical
	M> calculation - text stats will be useful for descriptions of
	M> facets of a characters that can't be quatified into a 1d
	M> number.

Ok, that's not what I'd define as a stat, but OK.

	M> I think it's a nice idea to include these descriptions in
	M> the hieriarchy. That would make even those relunctant to
	M> write a description put some text on their character
	M> sheets.

One possibility is of course to include an ordinal data type, with a
set of text strings that can be used, i.e build could be 'stocky',
'rotund', 'slim' ...etc.

This would make the stat usable for other things than esthetic(sp?)
reasons.  Perhaps each number should be associated with a text
description?

i have a feeling this doesn't exactly do what you want, thouh.
--
 = Ketil Malde                     In real life:  ketil@ii.uib.no =
 = Nuke the whales!                    Honk if you love unicorns! =
From: meierdalepau@bvc.edu
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
Subject: Desinging a mecha game
Date: 15 Nov 92 20:46:36 CDT
Organization: Buena Vista College, Storm Lake, IA


	I realize that many of you are busy trying to design an RPG through 
the 'Net, but I have a question maybe someone here could answer.  What do I 
need to consider when designing my own mecha game in the way of a rules 
system, equipment, and other materials (i.e. background history, mecha 
construction, etc.)?

Dale Meier
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
From: magnus@bark-fddi.ii.uib.no (Magnus Alvestad)
Subject: Re: Musing on the net.rpg thread
Reply-To: magnus@ii.uib.no
Organization: UVBS -> SFK/T-DSA / SOPS - HOS / RNoN
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 92 18:35:25 GMT

>>>>> On 16 Nov 92 21:43:26 GMT, tdunn@ecst.csuchico.edu (Tim Dunn)
>>>>> said:

Tim> 1) KISS.  I'm a *big* fan of simplism.  If realism can be accomodated
Tim>    in the rules, that's fine, but at the lost of only as little sim-
Tim>    plicity as possible.  If not, then make sure the rules don't allow

This is what I call the Human Touch - if you have players that are
diciplined enough to do things like the example you describe, great!
And the rules should allow for that. If they don't improvise, the GM
should at least do so. Escpecially for things like critical
successes/failures.

Tim>    simple.  I would much rather see a game with basic mechanics that
Tim>    are/have been/will be applied to all situations and allow those 
Tim>    situations to be resolved quickly and in a mechanically

That's what we are aiming for, I believe. You just insert some
genre-spesific methods, and voila! a new game.

Tim>    fashion.  One rolling mechanic, please.

I don't know. It's a Good and Bad thing I think. I suppose we'll have
to do it with one, just because everything else will be so complicated
if we don't.. :-/

Tim> 4) Magnus: another volume poster.  I regret that my vision of an ideal
Tim>    rpg does not seem to coincide with yours.  I will continue to read

Well, I think there is an area where our ideal intersect. I'm reaching
for that. I know net.rpg is in danger of becoming a Mission
Impossible, if everyone in favour of KISS defect, it will.

-Magnus

PS Sorry about the >80 line width.. ;-) Not! DS
From:  (Spike)
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
Subject: Net.rpg: Skills
Date: 16 Nov 92 18:51:16 GMT
Followup-To: rec.games.design
Organization: GE Power Generation

Someone in the "modularity " thread has mentioned that he
likes generic skills. (Apologies, I didn't grab it - this group
is really sucking up the old HD space!) My feelings on skills:

As much as I am wary of the idea of skill trees, it would work 
very nicely to satisfy both the generic-approach and the 
realistic-approach people. (Personally, I am among the latter.)
We wouldn't have to have actual *trees* to make this work, 
either - yay! Character sheets wouldn't have to be on 11" x 
17" paper! Instead, how about setting it up so that characteristics
are the defaults rolled for skills. Below characteristics are "broad"
skills (Comp Sci, Thief, Magic, Guns). Below these are sub-skills:
Programming, Debugging, Hacking; Pickpocket, Lockpicking, Stealth
and so on. This gives the players a simple way to fine-tune the level of
detail they want in the game.

Concerning skills combining with multiple stats: I like this idea, but 
I don't see a way to make it work without ripping off Ars Magica
or the Storyteller series.

Caveats: If skills are based on stats, costs (in the point-alloc 
generation system :-) must be very carefully balanced. 
Otherwise, it is easy to run into trouble as GURPS has, 
where it is *way* too cost-effective to buy high stats and pump
a few points into a skill, rather than just buy the skill at high 
level.

Spike
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
From: magnus@bark-fddi.ii.uib.no (Magnus Alvestad)
Subject: Re: Net.rpg: Attributes
Followup-To: rec.games.design
Reply-To: magnus@ii.uib.no
Organization: UVBS -> SFK/T-DSA / SOPS - HOS / RNoN
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 92 18:25:32 GMT

>>>>> On 16 Nov 92 19:34:47 GMT, (Spike) said:

	Spike> system would be like an election in the pre-glasnost
	Spike> USSR (one candidate, one vote!).

Do you mean this? If you think my 'administration' is keeping away
people with ideas, I'll keep a lower profile. Seriously.

		:
	Spike> rename the last two to the less-clunky Self-Awareness
	Spike> (or even Intuition) and Social, respectively.

I've put this in the faq. It's very pretty. Now if we could organize
this into a small hieriarchy, with perhaps two intellectual stats on
the top, then these .. eight? below.. and then all the skills below
that - we would have something!

	Spike> Ironically, although I didn't realize it when I was
	Spike> reading Gardener, Aftermath has a system very similar
	Spike> to this.  Go figure.

Hmm.. Rolemaster also has a lot of intelligence stats, I think.

-Magnus
Newsgroups: rec.games.design