HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: Thi_Huynh@univel.COM (Saigon Smuggler)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Glock vs. Sig!?
Date: 27 Jan 93 03:37:42 GMT
Organization: Univel

In article <1993Jan25.200540.3372@email.tuwien.ac.at>, holger@vmars.tuwien.ac.at (Holger Reusch (Dipl. Gerhard + Joe)) writes:
|> 
|> I have a Glock and want to buy a SIG instead (and no, I *cant* buy 'em
|> all, as much as I'd like to :-) for the following reasons:
|> 
|> -  In case of misfire, the Glock trigger can't be pulled again
|>    without racking the slide.  Same situation as with SA pistols.
|>    With the SIG I have the additional option of pulling the
|>    trigger again.

The Glock makes quite a deep primer dent with its striker upon firing.  If the
cartridge doesn't go bang, I would definitely use tap-rack-bang.  It is the
best way to handle misfire/dud in any semiauto-handgun.
 
|> -  The Glock trigger is quite light.  Too light for my comfort when
|>    my intended usage is home defense.
|> 
|> -  The SIG ergonomics please my hand more than the rather bulky Glock.
|> 
|> -  I like SIG's decocking lever.  Much better than fooling around with
|>    the hammer as on my old CZ 75.  On the Glock, I don't have that
|>    option, it's not-quite-DA or nothing.

Valid points based on personal preferences.

|> Note that my intention is not Glock-bashing (after all, these are
|> Austrian guns :-), so I'll include a list of points I like better
|> on the Glock than on the SIG:
|> 
|> -  Higher ammo capacity.  The G17 can store up to 19 rounds in the
|>    standard magazine (with the +2 extension).

Glock 19/23, imho, are the best personal sidearms.  It has good accuracy,
good reliability, compact size, lightweight, excellent durability/strength and 
high capacity.  I think Beretta 92/96 and Sig P226/228 are simply too big for
their magazine capacity and calibers.

|> -  Cleaning Glocks is not much work.  The plastic parts can be wiped
|>    off, that's it.
|> 
|> -  Glocks have no safety levers, decocking levers, etc.  Ease-of-use
|>    is of high importance, esp. in a stress situation.

-tt
From: leem@jpl-devvax.Jpl.Nasa.Gov (Lee Mellinger)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Ammo
Date: 28 Jan 93 16:11:23 GMT
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory (NASA)

In article <1993Jan26.151052.258@jpl-devvax.jpl.nasa.gov> leem@jpl-devvax.Jpl.Nasa.Gov (Lee Mellinger) writes:
:In article <1993Jan26.003549.23078@ttinews.tti.com> hollombe@polymath.tti.com (The Polymath) writes:
::In article <1jvfe3INNt74@digex.digex.com> curt@access.digex.com (curt williams) writes:
::}#>Is Black Talon the best stopper out
::Not quite.  Black Talon is too new to have developed much of a street
::history, but anecdotes are beginning to make the rounds. 
::
::Now, if they'd just find another name for it ...
::
::The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe, M.A., CDP, aka: hollombe@polymath.tti.com)
:
:I have heard a semi-official, probably true rumor that Winchester has
:yielded to law enforcement entreaties and is going to change the name
:of the Black Talon ammo to something a defense attorney can't use for
:his or his clients personal gain.
:Lee
:

Its no longer semi-official, it is real and here now.  Winchester has
changed the name of the Black Talon to Law Enforcement Talon, not
"Fluffy Bunnie Slippers".  The
new name seems to indicate that they have changed it only for law
enforcement sales.  That is, the name for the civilian market may
remain the same.  In any event, the San Bernardino County (CA)
Sheriff's Department has already begun to purchase and issue the
stuff.

Lee

"Mit Pulver und Blei, die Gedanken sind frei."

|Lee F. Mellinger                 Caltech/Jet Propulsion Laboratory - NASA
|4800 Oak Grove Drive, Pasadena, CA 91109 818/354-1163  FTS 792-1163     
|leem@jpl-devvax.JPL.NASA.GOV
From: gary%ke4zv.uucp@mathcs.emory.edu (Gary Coffman)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: BEST SHOTGUN DEFENSE ROUND?
Date: 23 Jan 93 21:50:19 GMT
Organization: Destructive Testing Systems

In article <n9020351.727559970@waldorf> n9020351@waldorf.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio) writes:
#FKK@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU writes:
#
##I'm sure that this has been discussed earlier but after shooting in some
##3-gun 'tactical' matches at Chabot Gun Club I believe that a 3" shell with
###4 buck shot is the best round.  The reasons? At the longer distaces 50+ yds
##you have a better chance of hitting a bad guy with the greater number of
##pellets in the magnum round.  If you go to 00 buck you have too few pellets
#
#
#???  Under what circumstances would it be desireable or lawful to 
#use lethal force against a figure 50+ yards away?

Well, how about if a carload of punks starts shooting at the house
when they're only 2/3 the way up the driveway?

Gary
-- 
Gary Coffman KE4ZV          |    You make it,     | gatech!wa4mei!ke4zv!gary
Destructive Testing Systems |    we break it.     | uunet!rsiatl!ke4zv!gary
534 Shannon Way             |    Guaranteed!      | emory!kd4nc!ke4zv!gary      
Lawrenceville, GA 30244     |                     |
From: rodgers@seas.smu.edu (Joseph Alex Rodgers)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Norinco 1911 vs Springfield
Date: 26 Jan 93 13:05:05 GMT
Organization: SMU - School of Engineering & Applied Science - Dallas

In article <25JAN199309213290@ariel.lerc.nasa.gov> smpod@ariel.lerc.nasa.gov (Stefan) writes:
#<1jk230INN1n6@tamsun.tamu.edu>, hmueller@orca.tamu.edu (Hal Mueller) writes...
##The consensus of private responses to my query seems to be that the Norinco
##price was outrageously high, and that the Springfield prices were somewhat
##low.  The Norinco becomes a reasonable choice only if it's sold at a much 
##better price ($300 or less, new). 
#
#At the last show that I attended, the Norincos were priced at $270.

I have seen many Springfields selling for about $300-$350 in last two
months. That is about average I think. The Norinco model is of unknown
quality, and most of the custom gunsmiths I know will not work on them
because they have had problems with them in the past. 

Someone said that they may become collectors items. I dont think so.
Springfield is apparently back in business. They made a big showing a
couple of weeks ago at the Houston SHOT show. I asked one of the factory
reps what the deal was with them, and he said that someone bought the
company and paid off the debts and they will stay in business. I dont
know how reliable that information is, but i am hopeful. :-).


Joe.
-- 

=============================================================================
Joseph A. Rodgers, AA5WY  ZK1JR          CW foreever!!!
From: gwyn@smoke.brl.mil (Doug Gwyn)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: .40 S&W loads???
Date: 24 Jan 93 03:32:42 GMT
Organization: U.S. Army Ballistic Research Lab, APG MD.


In article <1993Jan20.212927.4579@CERIS.Purdue.EDU> jheath@fieldofdreams.npirs.purdue.edu (Jim Heath) writes:
#I have ordered a Glock 20 (10mm) as well.  Is there a reason why they
#designed these 2 cartridges with different size primers?  Does anyone make
#brass for one or the other that uses the same size primers as the other?

I think the .40S&W designers thought that the large primer used on the
earlier 10mm ACP didn't have quite enough clearance around the rim.

I doubt that anyone makes nonstandard brass like you describe, especially
since it would not necessarily be safe to use such cartridges (the firing
pins, extractors, etc. are designed for a specific primer size and could
conceivably malfunction with the wrong size).
From: grant@bluemoon.use.com (Grant DeLorean)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Glock vs. Sig?? Reloading for the Glock
Date: 28 Jan 93 04:16:17 GMT
Organization: Blue Moon

DHORTON@ENGLISH.AS.UA.EDU (David A. Horton) writes:

#battery. I also was in the frame of mind to ask about factory loaded
#ammo and why it feeds so well. Obvious answer: factory stuff is
#loaded under stringent quality control control measures. My next
#question is has anybody given thought to polishing the feed ramp?? I
#haven't tried it , but this episode did make me think about it.
#Anybody else have any similar experiences with loading for the
#Glock?? Oh yeah, I only load jacketed stuff -- no lead.

 Lead works fine in at least the .40 S&W Glocks, I still have my 23
and shoot lead through it all the time.

 My 21 is gone, and I am done buying Glocks. The darn thing wouldn't
feed HydraShoks, it would jam minimally every other round and usually
every round. Not very effective as a defensive arm. 

-- 
\   Grant DeLorean  - IHMSA & NRA Life Member -  (grant@bluemoon.use.com)   /

        Good leaders being scarce, following yourself is allowed.
From: kdlin@advtech.uswest.com (David Lin)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Home Invasion Prevention Tactics Wanted
Date: 26 Jan 93 05:01:03 GMT
Organization: U S WEST Advanced Technologies

In article <C14pHD.LH5@scylax.uucp> scylax!tiglath@uunet.UU.NET writes:
#....
#[MODERATOR:  I think we're starting to evolve outside the scope of r.g.
#How about we take subsequent discussion to t.p.g. (or other places, if
#someone has a decent suggestion....)  Thanks much ...]

How about let's start a newsgroup rec.guns.truncated or rec.guns.cut
( you get the idea )? Whenever something starts to evolve outside
the scope of r.g., we can follow up to this newsgroup. Articles in
this new newsgroup have to be originated from r.g. ( This is to
differentiate from t.p.g. )

Our MODERATOR is doing an excellent job in keeping this group 
technical oriented. ( Thanks! ) But it is like that you watched
a soap opera and suddenly the whole thing disappeared. ;-)

David
-- 
 K. David Lin, Ph.D.              | IEEE Member, NRA Member, HAM Operator
 Communication Services Research  | U S WEST Life Safety Team
 U S WEST Advanced Technologies   | Defend your life in STEREO - Beretta & SIG 
 E-mail: kdlin@advtech.uswest.com | Disclaimer: Only personal opinions
From: robandtp@prsun.Cyanamid.COM (Paul Robandt)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Pacific Beach/ San Diego NRA instruction?
Date: 28 Jan 93 04:16:24 GMT
Organization: American Cyanamid Company

Could someone who knows the Pacific Beach/ San Diego area please
recommend a NRA instructor there?  I have a friend who just moved
there and wants instruction on firearms safety and self-defense.
Thanks!

Paul Robandt

[MODERATOR:  Don't forget you can call NRA directly and ask for
a listing of instructors and affiliated clubs by zip code....]
From: justice@Panix.Com (Michael Justice)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Kitchen Chemistry 101 (was: Re: good, bad & ugly)
Date: 23 Jan 93 21:50:13 GMT
Organization: Panix Public Access Internet & Unix, NYC

alanko@ruuvi.me.tut.fi (Risto Alanko) writes:
#At close range, these flares have more stopping power than 12ga shotgun
#slugs... The flare is a thin aluminium shell filled partly with lead
#shot (for weight), the rest is mostly "thermite" powder. When the thermite
#burns out, shot and shell drop separately to the ground.

Obligatory recipe:  (should I have crossposted to rec.food.cooking?)

THERMITE(O)                 USENET Flamebook             (O)THERMITE

DISCLAIMER:
Perform only under supervision of a qualified chemistry teacher.
For informational purposes only.  Don't try this at home.

INGREDIENTS:
        1 mole Al    (aluminum powder -- will have some Al2O3 on it)
        1 mole Fe2O3 (red rust)

DIRECTIONS:
(1) Grind fine separately.  Store separately until ready to use.
(2) Just before serving, mix together well.
(3) When you are about to serve, apply high heat to ignite.

NOTES:
I don't know what stability is like under any storage conditions.

           heat
Fe O  + Al ---> Al O  + Fe + 400cal
  2 3             2 3

Apply enough heat to activate (quite a bit, actually) and you get 400 cal
per mole.  Unfortunately, I don't have a periodic table handy, and don't
remember what the weights are per mole.  I'm guessing at around 23 grams
for the aluminum (plus a bit to allow for surface oxidation), and around
90 grams of rust (plus a bit to allow for not all of the iron being rusted).

This one isn't in the "Improvised Munitions" book, oddly enough;  at least,
I couldn't find it when I tried to show it to someone a few years ago.

It's nice to have high-school chemistry teachers who know how to hold their
students' interests.

			-- Michael.
CONTRIBUTOR:
--
Michael A. Justice / "Hey, wait a minute!  You guys are CONSULTANTS!
justice@panix.com /   You're not supposed to insult me, you're supposed
NRA Life / ILA   /    to KISS MY BUTT!  What is WRONG with you people?!?"
ISRA            /                 -- Glenn, having a bad day
From: cjp@megatek.com (Chris "Systems Stud" Pikus)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Calibre change kits?
Date: 26 Jan 93 13:05:17 GMT
Organization: Megatek Corporation, San Diego, California


 ems@michael.apple.com (E. Michael Smith) writes:

# Now that I have a 1911A1 .45 ACP, I'm wondering what it would take to 
# shoot a different calibre in it.  Say, for example, .40 S&W?
# 
# I figure a new barrel and magazine, and maybe a new recoil spring?
# Or is the .40 S&W so long that you can't adapt a .45 ACP frame?
#

You forgot a different extractor and ejector. The cases are different.
These two parts are of difficult to install/change and cannot be done 
quickly at the range. It would take a couple of hours in a shop to do
both.  Since the ejector is attached (staked in) to the frame of the gun,
you cannot get away with just having an extra slide.
  
# On a more general note:  I've often thought it would be nice to have
# a target gun with a bit less bark than 9mm, but don't like the 
# short bbls and blowback design of most .380 (9mm Kurtz) guns.  So...
# What would it take to convert a 9mm Parabellum to .380?  New bbl
# (probably custom) and different springs... but could you use the
# same magazine?  And what gun would work best for that?  The Beretta?
# A Glock?  


	In theory, since the case heads are the same, you can probably
do this (for the same reasons that you couldn't do it in the above ex-
ample).

The only problem I envision is that the .380 auto is a good bit shorter
and may not feed reliably from a 9x19mm magazine. Of course you could just
hack up a 9mm magazine by putting a 2mm spacer-strip in the back of it.
(and then use a file to shorten the follower).

	Of course -- to avoid feeding problems, it might be best to start
out with a single column magazine and shorten it.

	If you were really studly, you might be able to fashion a chamber
insert to make it into a sub-caliber; and then silver solder it in. This
would require veeeery precise machining work. I would lean towards the
Beretta since the barrel is steel. The Glock barrel may have some of
that funky "tennifer" coating in it which makes machining (and silver
soldering) difficult.

	Ob_SIG_Reference: of course the SIG would be the ideal candidate
for doing this sub-caliber conversion on: it never has feeding problems.
And the barrel is steel. (Of course, you would buy an extra. No sense in
trashing the perfectly good -- and matching serial number -- original
barrel.)

-- 
Christopher J. Pikus,        | "Forgive me for not knowing about El Salvador. 
Megatek Corp., San Diego, CA | Like it's not like I'm ever going to go to Spain
INTERNET: cjp@megatek.com    | or anything."	  -- "Buffy the Vampire Slayer"
From: hes@unity.ncsu.edu (Henry E. Schaffer)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Home Invasion Prevention Tactics Wanted
Date: 27 Jan 93 04:55:37 GMT
Organization: North Carolina State University

In article <199301252346.AA04775@cherokee.advtech.uswest.com> kdlin@advtech.uswest.com (David Lin) writes:
# ...
#That is a very good observation. However, the bottom line of the
#prblem is to decide which one is equal to death, shoot or not-shoot.
#So how do you decide which one is equal to death?

  This is the central question of self-defense with lethal force.
It is not an easy question to answer, and does require good
judgement.  I strongly recommend Ayoob's "In the Gravest Extreme"
as one of the resources which will help in answering the question.

  However I think that there is a slightly easier question to be
answered - (assuming NC law in which lethal force may be used only
to defend people, not property) - "am I (a person of reasonable
judgement) convinced that I am being seriously threatened with 
death/severe bodily harm"?

  Unless or until the answer is "yes" then don't shoot.  If the
answer is "yes" then "shoot to stop".  

--henry schaffer
From: gus@prism.gatech.edu (gus Baird)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: belt rigs
Date: 23 Jan 93 15:59:52 GMT
Organization: College of Computing, Georgia Institute of Technology


In article <63646@mimsy.umd.edu> purtilo@cs.umd.edu writes:
 >Now here's a question about something I know I've seen a bunch of times,
 >but now that I think of it I can't remember how it typically looks ....
 >
 >With a fellow shooter, I was talking about belt rigs (whether for IPSC or duty) 
 >for one's sidearm, and we couldn't quite figure out whether the usual practice
 >is to have a "normal" belt to hold up one's pants then place a heavier duty
 >belt OVER the normal one ...  OR, to lace the duty belt through one's pants
 >loops, and fuss around to get the holsters, utility and doodad holders in place
 >as you install it.   Seems like two belts is bulky, but I know I've seen where
 >officers would quickly undue the duty belt with gear in order to pass to a
 >fellow officer (during climbing or some wierd activity).  And doing neither
 >(that is, not wearing any belt in pants loops, and just buckling the duty 
 >rig around you quickly) is a direct invitation to heckling as fellows with
 >a figure like mine find their trowsers down around the knees and a heavy duty
 >belt snug up under the rolling belly....
 >
 >What am I missing here?

The "keepers".  8inch long leather straps (1/2"wide) with two male snaps
at one end and two female at the other that go 'round BOTH belts and
secure them together.  Only your ordinary trousers belt goes through 
the loops.  Service belt outside loops and trousers belt but kept from
flopping (or dropping!) by the keepers.  If you've lost your keepers 
you tie some twine around both belts in 3 or 4 places - best to have
one on either side of your holster.
-- 
gus Baird, College of Computing
Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
uucp: ...!{allegra,amd,hplabs,seismo,ut-ngp}!gatech!prism!gus
ARPA: gus@cc.gatech.edu
From: boone@athena.cs.uga.edu (Roggie Boone)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Glock 10mm: Holsters for concealed carry?
Date: 28 Jan 93 04:15:14 GMT
Organization: University of Georgia, Athens

I've got a Glock 10mm that I wish to carry concealed (after I 
get my permit next month).  I currently have an Uncle Mike's
horizontal draw shoulder holster, but I am rather thin and the barrel
end of the holster tends to show a bulge out the back side of my
shirt (when I have practiced wearing and drawing from it at _home_).
Perhaps  I am not wearing correctly though.
My question is, for us skinny guys, is there a good vertical 
holster for the Glock 10mm that offers:

   1) quick draw (spring loaded?)
   2) trigger protection (since I will probably carry the gun chambered)
   3) possibly a place for extra ammo clips

I would appreciate any other tips about concealed carry of the Glock 10mm
also (and/or weight gain so that I don't have the problem mentioned
above :-)  )

Thanks in advance for your help.

Roggie Boone
boone@athena.cs.uga.edu




-- 
Roggie Boone
Dept. of Ag and Applied Economics
University of Georgia
From: gwyn@smoke.brl.mil (Doug Gwyn)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: the spirit of rec.guns
Date: 27 Jan 93 03:36:43 GMT
Organization: U.S. Army Ballistic Research Lab, APG MD.


In article <9301252007.aa21687@claudius.pica.army.mil> erudnick@pica.army.mil (FSAC-SID) writes:
#Unfortunately, this fits right in with NJ Governor Florio's "weapons of
#war" BS. As in "legitimate sportsmen don't need _____________..."

One of the reasons I suggested "militia arms" is that it ties in neatly
with the basis for the Second Amendment, using wording that has to
remind one of that constitutional guarantee.  It is easy to document,
as was done in an NRA magazine ad several months ago and also in the
congressional report on the Second Amendment, that the primary intent
of the Founding Fathers with respect to the Second Amendment was to
ensure that the citizenry would be in a position to defend themselves
-- from a tyrranical government no less than from common thugs.  The
idea of "recreational" use of firearms was unheard of, and indeed it
would be hard to make a case that recreational shooting is a FUNDAMENTAL
right; on the other hand, self defense certainly is.  We should not let
the enemies of freedom get away with their attempts to define the nature
of the dispute in the terms they want to conduct it in.  The issue of
firearms ownership should not be debated as a matter of "sporting
purposes", since that in effect cedes the key issue to the opposition.

Another argument we should make, not just for gun control but for many
other laws, is that laws should directly address the matters of concern,
and not try to accomplish desired ends by roundabout contrivances.  For
example, we ALREADY HAVE zillions of laws concerning the ABUSE of
firearms and the commission of genuine crimes such as assault and
robbery.  It is a mistake to try to restrain such crimes by imposing
controls on the people who seldom commit such crimes; the career
criminal will not obey such restrictions anyway, while those who obtain
legitimate benefit from firearms (including sporting purposes as well
as self defense) suffer under the restrictions -- quite the opposite of
any rational intent of such laws.  This is the sort of argument that
should be raised EVERY TIME a public figure presents a bogus argument
for firearm restrictions.