HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: alz@nestor.cc.bellcore.com (zoble,allison l)
Subject: Pre-Marital Discussion Group
Organization: Bellcore, Livingston, NJ
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 92 16:15:27 GMT


A co-worker of mine (Catholic) just got married, and was
raving to my office-mate and me about the precana (sp?),
or pre-marital discussion group, that he and his wife
attended through the church prior to their wedding.

Apparently it was a full day spent with a priest and
several other couples, some already married. Topics
such as finances, beliefs, sex and children were
discussed, within couples and then in larger groups.
The finale was an exercise where letters describing
feelings for the fiancee/spouse were written, and
exchanged during a special Mass.

I was curious as to whether such a concept exists
in Judaism, overall or in any particular areas (i.e.
Reform, Conservative, Reconstructionist, etc.).
I cannot recall any friends or relatives ever 
mentioning such a thing, and I thought it sounded
like a great idea.


-- 
Allison Zoble                         "Things are getting worse ...
nestor.cc.bellcore.com!alz             please send chocolate!"- Boynton
My opinions are not necessarily those of my employer - thank goodness!
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: warren@nysernet.org (Warren Burstein)
Subject: Re: Prayer shawls
Reply-To: warren@nysernet.org
Organization: Mail to News Gateway at Wang Labs
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 10:22:57 GMT

In <1992Nov15.035026.9237@netcom.com> solovay@netcom.com (Andrew M. Solovay) writes:

    Well, by Ashkenazi tradition, "tallit" is masculine; actually,
    that should be "tallis" is masculine. Note the Yiddish plural
    "talleisim". The small garment is thus called a "tallis kotton"

Yes, but what should one say in Hebrew?
-- 
/|/-\/-\          Adif tzav pinui metzav shmoneh.
 |__/__/_/    
 |warren@         "Warren's slogan is an Anti-semite slogan."
/ nysernet.org 			    Gideon Ehrlich
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky)
Subject: Re: Why I think Kach's policies WASTE BANDWIDTH
Reply-To: makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky)
Organization: Arizona State University, Tempe AZ
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 02:29:10 GMT

In article <emc.721961733@ro> emc@doe.carleton.ca (Eli Chiprout) writes:

# >>>>>>>>>Herman said:
# >>>>>>>>>Kach is racist
# >>>>>>>>Isaac said:
# >>>>>>>>no they are not
# >>>>>>>Israel said:
# >>>>>>>yes they are
# >>>>>>Shlomo said
# >>>>>>they are not
# >>>>>Moishe said:
# >>>>>but they are
# >>>>Haimi said:
# >>>>define racist
# >>>Yaacov said:
# >>>Kach is racist
# >>Shmuel said:
# >>no they are not
# >Mikhael said:
# >yes they are

# A racist will never admit to being one.  He/she will admit to 
# the existence of racists, but his/her policies will never
# be racist, by definition.  Save your breath and our bandwith
# ladies and gentlemen.

	Funny, but almost the same can be said about people who engage in
smear tactics by calling others racist.

# Let's just make sure these people never get their hands on real
# power or influence.

	Whom?  The racists or Kach?
--
	There are three types of people in the world.  Those that are good
at math and those that are not.

makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu
From: goldberg@techunix.technion.ac.il (Jacques Goldberg)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Einstein and Judaism
Date: 15 Nov 92 08:49:38 GMT
Organization: Technion, Israel Institute of Technology

You understood nothing of what I wrote. I think it is a complete loss of time
on your side to try to read what I tried to express, clearly I am not gifted.
Einstein's understanding of God was very much deeper than the average
"orthodox" person. That he selected not to comply with daily practice has
nothing to do with understanding, and no person can judge his decision.
The point which you completely miss is that you and very many like you are
building up in your mind an arbitrary, human based, representation of what
you believe God to be, or want God to be. You then select which tests you
are going to apply to check your representation and draw your own conclusions.
What I try to say is that if INSTEAD of starting with such representations,	you would first decide that God (the thing you name God, L'HAVDIL...) does	not exist, and begin to study Judaism, the Jewish (Abraham's) understanding
would slowly but solidly build up, and when you THEN decide if you believe
in the God of Jews, that of Abraham, you would do so with some knowledge at
hand.
What anachronism do you see in Abraham's Judaism? Are you trying to tell us that
Abraham is not alive? For sure, his body was buried very long ago in Hebron,
but neither Abraham nor Albert Einstein not Eli Chiprout reduces to say 150
pounds of chemicals and water. There are additional tiny sparks that never
get buried.
Yaaqov 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: stank@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (Stan Krieger)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: My interpretation and yours
Date: 23 Nov 92 17:38:28 GMT
Organization: Summit NJ

>You people are all such hypocrites.  You go on and on
>about how legitimate you all are, while saying that I
>am illegitimate just because you disagree with me.
>
>All interpretations believe things that 200 years ago
>would be called heresy.  That's no more true of me as
>a M (Messianic) Jew than it is of an O or C or R Jew.
>All the interpretations, M, O, C, and R, are all in
>the same boat.
>
>If you want to call my interpretation illegitimate,
>give me a reason, otherwise stop complaining about
>people calling you illegitimate while yourselves all
>calling me illegitimate.
>
>And don't worry: I won't scare you by posting the
>reasons or tenets of my belief.  All I want to know is
>why, from a Jewish perspective (about which I have
>studied as much as any of you) you have the right to
>call me illegitimate while you gripe about noone
>calling you illegitimate.

My posting includes the entire original article.

The answer to your tirade is very simple.  The religion that
you are observing, by DEFINITION, is CHRISTIANITY.  Since
Christianity claims that it's on an evolutionary path from
Judaism prior to 33 CE, there is going to be some Siamese
twinning between the two religions.  But just because you
use certain fundamental Jewish beliefs (which is all Jesus
preached about) doesn't change the fact that you are
observing Christianity as your religion.
-- 
Stan Krieger                 All opinions, advice, or suggestions, even
UNIX System Laboratories     if related to my employment, are my own.
Summit, NJ
smk@usl.com
From: saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (samuel.saal)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: goy
Date: 23 Nov 92 19:39:22 GMT
Organization: AT&T

In article <92328.1349192893684@QUCDN.QueensU.CA> andy
<2893684@QUCDN.QueensU.CA> writes:

>I am well aware that the word "Jew" can be used in a derogatory way. Unlike
>kike or hymie the word "Jew" is not intrinsically derogatory. The word "goy"
>however is. After your presumptious rant, I don't expect you'll acknowledge
>the difference but it is there nevertheless.

I find PAndy's assertive proof methodology amusing, to say the least.
The word "Goy" comes from the Hebrew word "goy" (duh) which means
"nation" (or "people").  There is nothing intrinsically negative about
this.  In fact, when modified (something that can also be done), it can
mean a variety of things (Goy Kadosh - a holy people - springs to mind;
hardly negative).

I hardly expect PAndy to acknowledge this after his presumptuous rant, of
course.  Maybe he should ask Noam Chomsky.
-- 
Sam Saal      kingfish!saal OR saal@kingfish.att.com
	Vayiftach HaShem et Peah Ha`Aton
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,misc.headlines,talk.politics.misc,misc.legal
From: warren@nysernet.org (Warren Burstein)
Subject: Re: sexism
Reply-To: warren@nysernet.org
Organization: Mail to News Gateway at Wang Labs
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 07:22:08 GMT

In <1eaj2qINN4hi@pita.cs.huji.ac.il> aplebaum@irs01.cs.huji.ac.il (Hillel Applebaum) writes:

>BUT, I heared that some cover the TZITZIT with alominom foil
>and drop it like that in the washing machine - never tried,
>but I think that one can try small bags (from cloth).

I used to do that, the tzitzit came out fine but sometimes the
aluminum foil would tear a bit and there would be little pellets of
rolled up foil all over the washing machine and in the pockets of
clothes that were washed with the tallit katan.  I think the washer
that I use here in Israel spins slower than the one I used in the US,
so maybe this wouldn't be a problem here.

But the rubberband method that I described in another article works
just as well and you can re-use the rubberband at the next wash while
the foil is hard to re-use even if it doesn't tear.
-- 
/|/-\/-\          Adif tzav pinui metzav shmoneh.
 |__/__/_/    
 |warren@     
/ nysernet.org 			    Jerusalem
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: cohen@quartz.ciw.edu (Ronald Cohen)
Subject: Re: Valid Interpretation Flamefest Resumes
Date: 22 Nov 92 04:11:53 GMT
Organization: Geophysical Laboratory, CIW

In article <1992Nov22.010807.925@midway.uchicago.edu> clmn@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>The "modernists" (R&C), convinced that the torah is of human
>origin, must ...

Where do you get that idea?  Certainly not true for many C's,
anyway.  But, figuratively speaking, C's don't require a mind scan
to see what you think before deciding whether your practice is
legit or not.
-- 
Ronald Cohen
Geophysical Laboratory, Carnegie Institution of Washington
5251 Broad Branch Rd., N.W.,  Washington, D.C. 20015
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: warren@nysernet.org (Warren Burstein)
Subject: Re: Oral sex
Reply-To: warren@nysernet.org
Organization: Mail to News Gateway at Wang Labs
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 10:37:40 GMT

In <H6X82KE@math.fu-berlin.de> ring@inf.fu-berlin.de (Rod J. Ring) writes:

>Excuse me, but *anything* else, including Jewish men "practising"
>on shickse women and including sex between two Jewish partners not
>married to each other, violates Jewish morality.

It is my opinion that using this Yiddish term to describe non-Jews
(instead of just saying non-Jews) isn't the best idea either from the
same ethical viewpoint.
-- 
/|/-\/-\          Adif tzav pinui metzav shmoneh.
 |__/__/_/    
 |warren@         "Warren's slogan is an Anti-semite slogan."
/ nysernet.org 			    Gideon Ehrlich
From: ben@vmsa.technion.ac.il
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Embarrassment
Date: 15 Nov 92 13:59:50 GMT
Organization: Computer Center, Technion IIT

In article <1992Nov11.193633.3914@cbfsb.cb.att.com> hillel@cbnewsf.cb.att.com
>The story is given by Rabbi (Dr.) Twerski in his autobiography (I
>forgot the exact title <blushing>) as having happened to him so it
>is not "apocryphal".  A similar story involving a nonJewish
It is gound in Generation to Generation by Dr. A.J. Twersky.

As a biographical sidenote: This TWERSKY AND A.J. HESCHEL WERE NAMED FOR THE
SAME GRANDFATHER.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,talk.religion.misc,alt.atheism
From: arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee)
Subject: Monitored by Islam [rerepost]
Reply-To: arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee)
Organization: Johns Hopkins University CS Dept.
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 17:42:13 GMT

This is a re-repost from soc.culture.europe, originally appearing in
soc.religion.islam.

I've reposted it here because I haven't seen it yet reposted in these
groups, and these three newsgroups are groups that I happen to read.  If you
follow up and discuss something else, please change your newsgroups: line.
-----------------------------------
Hmmm..nice to know someone is watching over us.
Looks like the thought police now have net access and are reading our
every word.
Relates to a call for Usenet monitors to read innumerable newsgroups and
'correct' 'incorrect' perceptions.

Long article but read it all before commenting.

Dave

[article from soc.religion.islam follows]
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
From khan@twg.com Wed Nov 18 16:55:18 1992
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.turkish,talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,soc.culture.soviet,soc.rights.human,soc.culture.yugoslavia
Followup-To: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: "Arromdians" will not get away with the Turkish genocide's cover-up.
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 92 12:57:23 EST
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world

In article <By319o.1o8@max.physics.sunysb.edu> gene@max.physics.sunysb.edu (Eugene Tyurin) writes:

>Naah, instead you drown in the abundant flow of shameful whining:
>	Armenians genocided 2.5 million turks -- wha-a-a-a!

During the period of 1914 to 1920, Armenian government ordered, incited,
assisted and participated in the genocide of 2.5 million Muslim people
because of race, religion and national origin. I am really sorry if
that fact bothers historical revisionists (e.g., arromdian).

A genocide is a deliberate and organized massacre of people in an 
attempt to exterminate a race. This is the worst crime in history. 
It happened to the Turks in eastern Anatolia and the Armenian 
dictatorship. 2.5 million Turks and Kurds were killed in the worst 
ways imaginable. It is sickening to think that the human race is capable 
of such actions, but there is no denying the fact that the Armenian 
genocide of 2.5 million Muslims happened.

People of Turkey deeply sympathize with those whose relatives were 
killed in the Turkish genocide. I understand their anger that there 
are those who still deny that the Turkish genocide indeed took place, 
despite the fact that the genocide of 2.5 million Turks has been 
well documented over the past six decades. We cannot reverse
the events of the past, but we can and we must strive to keep the
memory of this tragedy alive on this side of the Atlantic, so as
to help prevent a recurrence of the extermination of a people
because of their religion or their race. 

Source: Bristol Papers, General Correspondence: Container #32 - Bristol
        to Bradley Letter of September 14, 1920.

"I have it from absolute first-hand information that the Armenians in 
 the Caucasus attacked Tartar (Turkish) villages that are utterly 
 defenseless and bombarded these villages with artillery and they murder
 the inhabitants, pillage the village and often burn the village."

Serdar Argic

                     'This war quickly developed into one of extermination. 
                      We closed the roads and mountain passes that might 
                      serve as ways of escape for the Tartars [Turks] and 
                      then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)
From: bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Jonathan Pollard...
Date: 22 Nov 1992 06:41:38 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: thor.ins.cwru.edu


   Would you care to document any of your claims as to the deaths
you say can be laid at the feet of Jonathan Pollard?
From: tichauer@valpso.hanse.de (Manfredo Tichauer)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Kosher pork in the diabetic?
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 92 03:58:47 +0100
Organization: "The Private Site of Manfredo Tichauer"

jgoldber@todah.chem.utoronto.ca (Joel Goldberg) writes:

> In article <gqJLuB1w165w@valpso.hanse.de> tichauer@valpso.hanse.de (Manfredo 
> >  What means CYLOR?
>    Can't You Look Op References?

     What means Op References?

     In the meantime two kind readers mailed me that CYLOR means 

                " Consult Your Orthodox Rabbi "

 -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Manfredo Tichauer M.                       EMAIL : tichauer@valpso.hanse.de
  Opitzstrasse 14                            VOICE :     (++ 49 40)  27.42.27
  2000 Hamburg 60 - GERMANY                  FAX   :     (++ 49 40) 270.53.09
 -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: gertler@cyclone.sbi.com (Don Gertler)
Subject: Re: What _is_ the procedure for conversion to Judaism?
Originator: scj@israel.nysernet.org
Reply-To: <gertler@cyclone.sbi.com (Don Gertler)>
Organization: Nysernet
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 15:14:40 GMT

faigin@aero.org (Daniel P. Faigin) writes:
> saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (samuel.saal) said:

> >>  It is sufficient for the prospective convert (ger) to declare, orally and
> >>  in writing, in the presence of a rabbi and no less than two lay leaders of
> >>  the congregation and community, acceptance of the Jewish faith and the
> >>  intention to live in accordance with its mitzvot.
> 
> > The way I read this paragraph is that it says "I promise to abide by the
> > mitzvot except for ....."
> 
> I don't see an "except for" in the statement. Perhaps a better interpretation
> would be "I promise to abide by the mitzvot as I have been taught". Where we
> differ is on what gets taught.

So you've inverted "na`aseh venishma`" to "nishma` vena`aseh."

-Don Gertler
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: ask@cbnews.cb.att.com (Arthur S. Kamlet)
Subject: Re: Square Kippot (was: Re: Tzitzit on ordinary garments)
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories,  Columbus, Ohio
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 03:48:11 GMT

In article <1992Nov16.021109.15846@cas.org> rmt51@cas.org writes:
>In article <1992Nov15.201508.28866@msuinfo.cl.msu.edu>,
>friedenb@silver.egr.msu.edu (Gedaliah Friedenberg) writes:
>|> 
>|> If one were to wear a square kippah, would it require tzitzit?
>|> (is a kippah considered a garment?)
>|> 
>No.  There is a certain minimum size for a 4-cornered garment to require
>tzitzit, and a kippah is too small by far.

The talit is a rectangular garment, at keast one side is 1 amot
(4 fists -- about 18 inches)

Of course, many people do daven with a talit over their heads.
-- 
Art Kamlet  a_s_kamlet@att.com  AT&T Bell Laboratories, Columbus
From: ask@cbnews.cb.att.com (Arthur S. Kamlet)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Square Kippot (was: Re: Tzitzit on ordinary garments)
Date: 17 Nov 92 23:13:47 GMT
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories,  Columbus, Ohio

In article <1992Nov17.192920.17472@blaze.cs.jhu.edu> arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee) writes:
>(I also think that writing the words "There are 613 mitzvot.  Follow them."
>written in large friendly letters would be much more effective at reminding
>people than doing something whose gematria happens to add up to the number
>613.  If the purpose is to remind people, why such a roundabout way?)

Good question.

Why do we circumcize our children?  Why is the Sabbath day holy?
Why are bacon & eggs prohibuted?  Why do we tie fringes around the
corners of our garmments?

In each case, because the Torah says so.

Some commandments are just given without explaining the reason.
Here, though, we are even given a reason:  Tie fringes in the
corners of your garments so when you look at them you will be
reminded of the commandments and will do them.

The commandment and the reason are right there in the text.

Why would anyone tie a sting around around their finger to remind
them to do something?  They could write a reminder to themselves.
Sort of like your suggestion.

Well, if you don't like to have to tie strings, and prefer to write
things down, there's even a commandment to "write these words on your
doorposts and your gates ..."

So we get to do both:  we can tie fringes on our garments, if we
have cornered garments, and we have a commandment to write these
words upon our doorposts ...  (I won't even get into binding words.)
-- 
Art Kamlet  a_s_kamlet@att.com  AT&T Bell Laboratories, Columbus
From: aplebaum@irs01.cs.huji.ac.il (Hillel Applebaum)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Pierced Ears
Date: 17 Nov 92 15:44:12 GMT
Organization: The Hebrew U. of Jerusalem, Computer Science Dep.
NNTP-Posting-Host: irs01.cs.huji.ac.il

In article <2830@israel.nysernet.org>, warren@nysernet.org (Warren Burstein) writes:
|> In <1dtodlINN3qs@pita.cs.huji.ac.il> aplebaum@irs01.cs.huji.ac.il
|> (Hillel Applebaum) writes:
|> 
|>     1. I heared that jewish weman are permited to pierce thier ears because
|>     no force will be able to stop it (GZERA SHEIN HTZIBUR etc).
|> 
|> But In <1dtmpdINN3qs@pita.cs.huji.ac.il> aplebaum@irs01.cs.huji.ac.il
|> (Hillel Applebaum) writes:
|> 
|>      Personaly, I'll do all I can to stop my daughter (when I'll
|>      have one, BE"H) won't go with earings at all !

My daughter isn't TZIBUR (and I don't a daughter).
-- 

-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*--*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
/ Hillel P. Applebaum  |> ISRAEL - where all
/ Jerusalem,   Israel  |  jews should live !
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*--*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
 Adif shalom im hgolan mimlchma bila'adiv
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: hook@eagle.geog.ubc.ca (Chris Hook)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Conversion Question
Date: 23 Nov 1992 17:00:14 GMT
Organization: University of British Columbia, Vancouver, B.C., Canada
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: eagle.geog.ubc.ca

In article <1992Nov22.005528.598@midway.uchicago.edu>, clmn@ellis.uchicago.edu (Bill Coleman) writes:
|> Daniel Faigin wrote:
|>
|> Although Judaism certainly does have a set of beliefs, it also repre-
|> sents a set of practices and most Jews agree that the practices are
|> what's most important.  This is in accordance with the Talmudic dictum
|> of G-d saying, "Better that they should forsake Me than to forsake My
|> mitzvot."

But does Moses also not say that what is most important is to
love the Lord G-d with all your heart and keep all the ways that are given
through the law? How can the two (love of G-d and the law) be separated
except by human convention? Does Moses not say that what each person needs most is a
circumsized heart? How else can one fulfill the law (i.e., out of obedience and
not grudging self-sacrifice) without that heart before G-d? Any other way
starts to become yet another meaningless human ritual, of which the world
is full of. Is not one of the perpetual failings of Ancient
Israel (from the time spanning the Torah, Writings, and Prophets) the 
carrying out of ritualistic practices with no heart before G-d? In fact,
the prophets echoed words of chastisement and punishment to the people of 
ancient Israel over and over again for doing this.

Of course, we disagree over the practices as well as the
|> beliefs, but I think most Jews agree that the emphasis on practice is a
|> characteristic of Judaism which tends to differentiate it from Christi-
|> anity.
|>  
I must differ here again, as any time spent in investigation of what 
actually happens in Christianity (as opposed to stated hopes, theories, etc.)
shows over and over again that Christianity typically migrates from a set
of beliefs into a secularized set of human practices and conventions. This has
been true of virtually every so-called movement of Christianity that I can
think of, from Catholic, to Lutheran, to Methodist. 

A movement is started by a person with a set of beliefs (in the above cases, 
with Peter?, Martin Luther, and John Wesely sp?)
but when those initiators are gone, the so-called belief or "vision" of the
intiator becomes first obscured, then lost. Typically, what finally seems to happen
is that the "vision" moves into a system of dead ritualism. This is not
the stated intent or purpose of Christianity, but it certainly is an
undeniable pattern.

Let me finally add, that the secularized ritualism that Christianity
has so often adopted (human ways, conventions, traditions) is in no way
comparable to the following of the law that was handed down via Moses, for the
law was G-d's decree, the conventions, man's. The danger, and exception,
here is that the Mosaic law can also be moved, via human convention, to 
dead systems of human rituals and traditions (and often, from what history 
tells me, has been).
|> -- 
|> Bill Coleman
|> clmn@midway.uchicago.edu

Chris Hook
hook@geog.ubc.ca