From: steven@guava.net.com (Steve Nelson)
Subject: Re: Weinberger's Pardon
Organization: Network Equipment Technologies, Redwood City, CA
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 23:40:31 GMT

In article <ART.93Jan2113828@world.std.com> art@world.std.com (Al Thompson) writes:
>In article <1992Dec31.190521.26189@unet.net.com> steven@guava.net.com (Steve Nelson) writes:
>
>   In article <bhayden.725782011@teal> bhayden@teal.csn.org (Bruce Hayden) writes:
>
>   >you would have
>   >to put FDR, JFK, and LBJ at the head of the list. 
>   >
>
>   Please provide specific information, including the name of any
>   administration officials, the date of occurrences, the person or persons
>   to whom the information was provided, the text of the information provided, 
>   the sources you referenced, and evidence to prove that the information 
>   given was incorrect and was knowingly provided with the deliberate intent 
>   to deceive, which indicates that any senior official in the FDR, JFK, or 
>   LBJ, administrations or that the president himself ever lied (knowingly 
>   provided incorrect information with the deliberate intent to deceive) under 
>   oath, in a court of law, during a deposition, or to Congress.
>
>That's easy, LBJ's lying about the Tonkin Gulf incident,

I asked for specific information, not general statements with no support.
A general statement, as the one above, needs specific supporting evidence
to lend it credibility.  Something such as the following might make a good
start:


Here is some evidence that indicates that the Johnson administration 
may have been deceitful regarding the events surrounding the Gulf of 
Tonkin incident.

On August 2, 1964, North Vietnamese PT boats attacked the U.S. destoyer
Maddox in Tonkin Gulf.  The United States asserted that the attack was
"unprovoked" while the Maddox sailed "on routine patrol in international
waters."  But Hanoi, on July 30 and 31, had already filed a formal
protest with the International Control Commission set up under the
Geneva agreements, declaring that Saigon vessels had raided North
Vietnamese fishing boats and that, under cover of protection by an 
American destoyer, had bombarded two North Vietnamese islands.  The
attack on the Maddox, Hanoi held, was aimed to stop such activities.
Secratary of Defense, Robert McNamara, on the other hand, denied
American complicity by stating, "Our Navy played absolutely no part in,
was not associated with, was not aware of, any South Vietnamese actions,
if there were any."

Four years later, Robert McNamara conceded before a Congressional
hearing what the Pentagon Papers also confirmed -- that North Vietnamese
islands had been bombarded and that the United States and South Vietnam
had made joint raids against North Vietnam.  It was also made clear that
the bombing was part of a secret and deliberate United States policy,
adopted in early 1964, to exert "new and significant pressures on North
Vietnam," to elict overt action on her part in order to gain
congressional authorization of whatever further "is necessary with
respect to Vietnam."



>JFK's cover-up of the events surounding the Bay of Pigs fiasco.  

Please provide specific supporting evidence that indicates that the
Kennedy administration covered-up the events surrounding the Bay of
Pigs after the invasion occurred.


>There are those (I am
>not among them) who claim that FDR knew the Japanese were going to attack
>Pearl Harbor and deliberately hid the facts so we would be drawn into the
>war.  The FDR claims aside, clearly the LBJ lies were the worst since
>they lead to our involvemant in that hideous fiasco in Southeast Asia.

One can make a strong argument that the Johnson Adminstration's deceit 
regarding the Gulf of Tonkin incident was one factor that led to the United
State's deepening involvement in Southeast Asia.  However, one can also
argue that is was not the single most important factor resulting in 
American involvement in Southeast Asia.  A strong case can be made that 
the Cold War mentality that existed in the United States (which feared
the demonstration effect, sometimes called the "domino theory", where
successfull independent nationalism in one country might have a
spreading effect to others, ending up eventually with Japan accommodating 
to an independent nationalistic Asian region) as well as the
Military-Industrial Complex were far more instrumental in shaping
American policy toward and involvement in Southeast Asia than deceit 
surrounding any one single incident.  But, a discussion of that is 
better left to another time and place.


Steve                           Roll on you BEARS!!!
Xref: sparky alt.conspiracy:13941 talk.politics.misc:67134 alt.president.clinton:1499