HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: Will Steeves <goid@zooid.guild.org>
Subject: Re: Back Again To Father
X-To: MICHAL LEAH PERI
Organization: The Zoo of Ids
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1992 03:07:00 GMT

peri@cco.caltech.edu (Michal Leah Peri) writes...
MLP> beaver@castor.cs.psu.edu (Don Beaver) writes:

MLP> >1.  The father denies fatherhood and demands a paternity test.
MLP> >If it's negative, he "wins."  If it's positive, he will have
MLP> >severely reduced his chances for custody.  ("If you doubt your
MLP> >child is yours *and* you want to escape your responsibilities,
MLP> >then how can I expect you to be a good parent?" asks the judge.)


MLP> I jsut don't understand this.  Do youmean that your love for the
MLP> child is conditional on whether its DNA matches yours?


When that "love" goes along with between $125,000 to $250,000 over 18 years,
you *bet* that it's conditional!

Besides, it's unfair to ask this question of me, since after all, when a
woman has a child, she *always* knows that it's hers...  :-)

(I told this quote to my ex-SO, you know, the one who threatened my life
because I went public, and she blasted me for being so mean as to be so
untrusting...*SO* disrespectful of me...OH GOiD!  I SAID IT AGAIN!)

---
Will Steeves, goid@zooid.guild.org                      "Neil Hull is GOiD"
ZOOiD BBS, Toronto, Ontario - The Zoo Of Ids            "GOiDS Rule"
(416) 322-7876

"Cthulhu for President in '92 - Why vote for the _lesser_ of two evils?"
                                                          - Bronis Vidugiris
---
 * SLMR 2.1a * ZOOiD BBS (416) 322-7856 -- Honk.
Newsgroups: soc.women,alt.feminism,soc.men
From: nelson_p@apollo.hp.com (Peter Nelson)
Subject: Re: Self Appreciation (was: Re: Elle MacPherson causes rape?)
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 11:42:59 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Corporation, Chelmsford, MA

In article <1992Nov17.225751.4075@adobe.com> kendall@adobe.com (Janice Kendall) writes:

>Response to specifics in your post:
>
>- Do you believe their are innate differences in intellect based on sex?

  I don't know, but I think it's unfortunate that the political 
  atmosphere today discourages research on questions like that
  since even asking the question, in a scientific way, is considered
  politically incorrect in some quarters.  

  
>- The "knowing" of being male or female is a non-verbal sensation.  It
>  has nothing to do with thought, it has to do with identity/ego and feeling.
>  It has to do with feeling comfortable in your body.

  Well, that may be.  But it may not.   Transexuals say that they "feel
  like" they are the sex opposite of their biological one.  This raises
  interesting questions.   I imagine it should be possible to ask 
  detailed questions about what they mean by this.  In other words,
  *specifically* how do they feel on a number of subjects and pref-
  erences?    Since gender-roles vary from one culture to another
  it would be interesting to see if their answers were uniform across
  transexuals living in different cultures, or whether they conformed
  to the roles of their perceived gender _for their culture_.   This
  might shed some light on some of the nature/nurture issues for 
  gender identity.


>Also, to my way of thinking, we all have male and female sides.  Maybe you are
>so balanced you don't identify either way...

  But even using the term "male and female sides" implies that there
  are male and female properties.   Do you believe that there are?
  For instance, I'm highly competitive, I like to win arguments, etc.
  I also cry easily at sentimental movies, weddings, etc.  In our 
  culture the former is a "male" trait, the latter a "female" one.
  But does this last sentence still make sense if I take the phrase
  "in our culture" out of it?        


---peter


Newsgroups: soc.women
From: farthing@leland.Stanford.EDU (ljf)
Subject: Re: Cold Marriage
Keywords: Marriage
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 92 17:17:11 GMT

In article <1992Nov21.230236.6084@dragon.acadiau.ca> 890530m@dragon.acadiau.ca (Darren MacKenzie) writes:
>Normally on this group, I am just looking for a flame-war, or shouting
>my opinions (that noone listens to, anyway) out at everybody, or just
>getting in a good E-mail war.  It's a great stress reliever, and I find
>it very fun. 

NO!!!  Who would have guessed?

Newsgroups: soc.women
From: nelson_p@apollo.hp.com (Peter Nelson)
Subject: Re: Racist/Sexist Role Models
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 21:06:58 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Corporation, Chelmsford, MA

In article <1992Nov23.202514.19702@das.harvard.edu> stewart@geophysics.harvard.edu writes:
>In article 19575@samba.oit.unc.edu, Terry.Parks@launchpad.unc.edu (Terry Parks) writes:
>>Many colleges provide special preferred academic treatment for Blaks.
>
>Actually, they've been providing special treatment for Whites for a long
>time.  This is evidenced by the fact that one college officer obviously 
>can't even spell the color "Black" and doesn't know enough to call Americans 
>of African descent by their proper name, i.e. African Americans.

  Spelling flames have no place here.  The "proper name" for blacks
  changes every few years -- since I reached voting age there have been
  at least 4 "proper" names for blacks.   If they would make up their 
  minds what they would like to be called they would have a lot better
  success in getting compliance with it!


>for women than for men.  Men systematically have their scores raised
>a couple points.  Because women tend to get better grades in High
>School and better letters of recommendations, in order to keep the 
>male-to-female ratio 1:1, lower admission standards are applied to 
>men.

   This would only be true if schools are deliberately targeting 
   a certain ratio of males to females which requires increasing
   the neumber of males they accept.  Do have any actual evidence
   that schools have this policy or are you arguing on circumstantial
   evidence?


>                   Also recall that there was a quota here at
>Harvard for Jewish students until the 60's, which is why Boston 
>University exists (it was started because top students who happened
>to be Jewish would have a harder time gaining admission to Harvard
>because of these quotas) and for a long time there were no Jewish
>faculty here.

  Boston University??    What's so Jewish about BU?  They regularly
  broadcast Protestant church services on WBUR.   Also, historically
  their academic standards weren't that high -- when I was looking 
  at collges in the 1960's 48% of BU's faculty were PhD's compared
  to over 60% for Umass, for instance.   A student who was acdemically
  qualified for Harvard would not settle for BU in the 60's!   Nor
  were they very selective -- Everybody I knew was using BU for their
  "safety" school.  Maybe you're thinking of Brandeis -- a largely
  Jewish Boston-area college with high academic standards.
    

>                  In essence, with more strict admissions policies 
>being applied to women and Jews at Harvard/Radcliffe, logic dictates
>that the admissions standards have always been lower for WASP men
>here. 

  Logic dictates no such thing.  (you're posting from Harvard?)
  It would only suggest such a thing if the number of applicants
  from each group were the same.  


---peter






Newsgroups: soc.women
From: ra@asuvax.eas.asu.edu (Starcap'n Ra)
Subject: Re: Sexist? Dangerous?
Organization: t.b
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 18:23:58 GMT

biesel@javelin.sim.es.com (Heiner Biesel) writes:
> Reminds me of New York, coldest, loneliest place on earth. Rudeness
> seems to be inversely proportional to one's distance from Times Square.

     Oh, you're so right, Heiner.  And on a related
note, Germany is a very pretty country -- it would
be such a nice place if it weren't for all the
fucking Germans there, don't you agree?

--Starcap'n Ra       {ames,gatech,husc6,rutgers}!ncar!noao!asuvax!kennedy
                        {allegra,decvax,ihnp4,oddjob}--^
                                          ^---------------The Wrong Choice
                             internet: kennedy@asuvax.asu.edu
Newsgroups: soc.women,alt.feminism,soc.men
From: nelson_p@apollo.hp.com (Peter Nelson)
Subject: Re: Self Appreciation (was: Re: Elle MacPherson causes rape?)
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 14:46:50 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Corporation, Chelmsford, MA

In article <celeste-181192142820@128.158.16.248> celeste%express@freedom.msfc.nasa.gov (Celeste) writes:
>>    How do those who hold this view square it with the opinions 
>>    of posters like the above?   Transexuals will frequently claim
>>    that they "feel like" a member of U sex in a V body.   Indeed,
>>    interesting philosophical questions are raised by just asking
>>    what it means to "feel like" a member of a certain gender.
>>   
>>    I am a male.  I am physically attracted to females, which makes
>>    me heterosexual.  I have a variety of personality characteristics
>>    and might feel happy, sad, driven, angry, elated, wistful, melan-
>>    choly, silly, and so forth at various times.   Yet despite all
>>    of this I'm not sure what it "feels like" to be a man.   That is, 
>>    I can't associate any of these feelings with "maleness" and 
>>    obviously I don't know what it "feels like" to be female, either.
>>    So why/how does the above poster think she (he?  --what's the
>>    correct pronoun?) does?
>> 
>If you don't "feel" a disonace between your gender and your body,
>then you are not a transsexual. Feeling like a women in a male
>body is like describing colors and color harmony to a
>blind person.

  I think this answer is a cop-out.   I can feel a dissonance,
  for instance, between an occasional self-image as young,
  athletic, and graceful, and the physical reality of being
  40-ish, a little paunchy, and klutzy.    The point is that
  I can describe both the reality and the image and extract
  the "dissonance", i.e., the places they don't match.   

  If an MMPI (Minnesota Multiphasic Personality Inventory --
  a standard psychological test) were to be administered 
  to transexuals and non-transexuals, what differences would
  it reveal?   Would the MMPI for biologically male transexuals
  be more similar to non-transexual biological females?


---peter
From: stewart@geophysics.harvard.edu (Cheryl Stewart)
Newsgroups: soc.women
Subject: Re: Racist/Sexist Role Models
Date: 23 Nov 92 20:25:14 GMT
Article-I.D.: das.1992Nov23.202514.19702
Reply-To: stewart@geophysics.harvard.edu
Organization: Dept. of Earth & Planetary Sciences, Harvard University

In article 19575@samba.oit.unc.edu, Terry.Parks@launchpad.unc.edu (Terry Parks) writes:
>Many colleges provide special preferred academic treatment for Blaks.

Actually, they've been providing special treatment for Whites for a long
time.  This is evidenced by the fact that one college officer obviously 
can't even spell the color "Black" and doesn't know enough to call Americans 
of African descent by their proper name, i.e. African Americans.


>These include lower admission standards (in effect, adding points to SAT
>scores, etc.),

Actually, the same is done for men, since the raw SATs are higher
for women than for men.  Men systematically have their scores raised
a couple points.  Because women tend to get better grades in High
School and better letters of recommendations, in order to keep the 
male-to-female ratio 1:1, lower admission standards are applied to 
men.  Furthermore, IQs of women in graduate schools are consistently
higher than their male counterparts, indicating that applying lower
academic standards to men continues on to graduate school admissions.


> tutoring, mentoring, organization memberships, which are
>denied Caucasian students.

Actually, at Cornell, where I went to school, there were a number of
organizations which were extremely race, gender and even religion 
restricted which provided tutoring, mentoring and files full of 
old exams and problem sets for most courses.  These were known as
FRATERNATIES.  Since they are private organizations, they are actually
extremely restrictive.  The same goes for secret societies, such as
George Bush's at Yale.  Also recall that there was a quota here at
Harvard for Jewish students until the 60's, which is why Boston 
University exists (it was started because top students who happened
to be Jewish would have a harder time gaining admission to Harvard
because of these quotas) and for a long time there were no Jewish
faculty here.  In essence, with more strict admissions policies 
being applied to women and Jews at Harvard/Radcliffe, logic dictates
that the admissions standards have always been lower for WASP men
here.  Men like yourself.  Of course, even with all of that extra
help, some WASP men still wind up at state schools.  Men like yourself.


> Perhaps you didn't realize such advantages
>made available to you were race restricted.

Perhaps you didn't realize such advantages 
made available to you were race restricted.


Cheryl
From: xenon@drycas.club.cc.cmu.edu
Newsgroups: soc.women
Subject: Re: why
Date: 23 Nov 92 17:00:47 -0500
Distribution: na
Organization: Carnegie Mellon Computer Club

In article <92Nov23.191208.20961@acs.ucalgary.ca>, gembura@acs.ucalgary.ca (Jerry Robert Gembura) writes:
> How come that 99.9% of articles in this group are written by men?
> Just curious.
> Jerry

It's a conspiracy, Jerry.  The minions of Patriarchy have terrorized most of
the female net population into silence, and are currently at work on a worm to
seek and destroy female postings everywhere.  Soon only male voices will be
heard throughout the land, and the female will be cast out into everlasting
darkness!

- xenon


Newsgroups: soc.women
From: jsp@uts.amdahl.com (James Preston)
Newsgroups: soc.women,alt.feminism,soc.men
Subject: Re: Practise what you preach? (was:what is sexist?)
Date: 19 Nov 92 23:26:32 GMT
Reply-To: jsp@pls.amdahl.com
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA

muffy@remarque.berkeley.edu (Muffy Barkocy) writes:

}However, the specific thing that I considered idiotic from you was when
}I said "I'm not sure if I agree with this definition" (being the one
}from your dictionary) and you came back with the (oh-so-non-nasty)
}comment about "you don't agree with the dictionary definition" stuff.
}Surely anyone who cites dictionary definitions could be expected to know
}that different dictionaries define words in different ways, yes?  So
}saying that I was just trying to "ignore reality" was both idiotic and
}nasty.

My apologies if what I said came across as nasty.  I didn't mean it as
such.  But what I said was not idiotic.  The phrase you used, "I'm not 
sure if I agree with this definition" contained no qualifiers, so it
was not unreasonable to interpret that to mean that you were dismissing
the entire definition, rather than only questioning the necessity of one
of its qualifiers.  And while it is true that different dictionaries define 
words in somewhat different ways, there are rarely out-and-out contradictions.  
So while someone may find a particular definition incomplete or unnecessarly
restrictive, people usually don't disagree with the entire definition.

(Jeeze, am I getting pedantic, or what?  I've either been preparing
too much for law school, or reading too much Mike Godwin.)

--James Preston
Newsgroups: soc.women
From: drieux@wetware.com (drieux, just drieux)
Subject: Re: codes of honor
Organization: Castle WetWare Philosopher and Sniper
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1992 22:57:23 GMT

rs69@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Rong Shen) writes:
] 
] Just curious; what are the feminine codes of honor? and what are the
] masculine codes of honor? How have the codes for both genders evolved
] from the Greeks to the present?


Did I miss something?

When WERE the codes 'gender based?'

ciao
drieux


-- 
Modern Day Problems:
Little Miss Muffett, sat on a ToughtIt,
Eating her Kurds and Weighs, Along came a Spider,
and she drove off with the Neat Guy with a HOT CAR!
Newsgroups: soc.women,alt.feminism,soc.men
From: lynch@ils.nwu.edu (Richard Lynch)
Subject: Re: Self Appreciation (was: Re: Elle MacPherson causes rape?)
Organization: The Institute for the Learning Sciences
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 23:07:19 GMT

In article <1992Nov21.051425.25636@netcom.com> sheaffer@netcom.com (Robert Sheaffer) writes:
>In article <By0rrA.7Kw@apollo.hp.com> nelson_p@apollo.hp.com (Peter Nelson) writes:
>>     If females are psychologically different for reasons
>>   that transcend social factors then this has interesting 
>>   implications for feminist theory.
>>
>> Are there any feminist scholars who have taken a position on
>> the philosophical implications of transexualism?
>
>I would think that they would have to reject the use of the MMPI
>or other tests to measure "femininity," as Wendy's analyst
>was, as being Incorrect. Otherwise, they'd be
>admitting the reality of significant psychological differences
>between women and men. 

Well, first of all, there are bound to be some feminists who think there *are*
significant psychological differences between men and women.

Indeed, some who will claim that these differences are *totally* caused by
our messed up society.  [Interesting query:  If such people took these tests,
would they be able to 'overcome' their conditioning?]

Hopefully only a few would make such an extreme claim.
-- 
"TANSTAAFL"     Rich lynch@aristotle.ils.nwu.edu
Newsgroups: soc.women
From: 890530m@dragon.acadiau.ca (Darren MacKenzie)
Subject: Re: Cold Marriage
Keywords: Marriage
Organization: Acadia University
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1992 23:03:35 GMT

rfs@cbnewsh.cb.att.com (richard.f.j.soyack) writes:

>Do yourself a favor and seek professional help.  If she won't
>go with you go by yourself.

On the contrary, I do believe it's HER that needs the help, not HIM!!
-Doc

-- 
=============================================================================== The Commodore Amiga 4000 - 24 bit          16,777,216 colors (4096^2)!!         ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Buster: "Say goodnight, Babs."                                                 
Babs  : "Goodnight, Babs."                                                      I'm tiny, I'm toony, and I'm a little looney!                                   ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Darren MacKenzie                                                                ("The Doctor")                                                                  890530m@aucs.acadiau.ca
===============================================================================
Newsgroups: soc.women
From: bhv@areaplg2.corp.mot.com (Bronis Vidugiris)
Subject: Re: Sexist?  Dangerous?
Organization: Motorola, CCR&D, CORP, Schaumburg, IL
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 16:49:07 GMT

Let me throw my $.02 in as regards to comments on appearance.

In article <1992Nov16.235919.14392@asuvax.eas.asu.edu> ra@asuvax.eas.asu.edu (Starcap'n Ra) writes:
)barry@netcom.com (Kenn Barry) writes:
)> 	Suppose it was at a costume party; Halloween, perhaps, or the
)> Hooker's Ball?
)
)     Well since the whole idea of a costume party
)is for everyone to dress unusually, comments on
)personal appearance would be appropriate to the
)occasion.

Yep.

)> Suppose it was at a single's event, where meeting
)> strangers is the name of the game?
)
)     No.

I disagree - I think it would most likely be appropriate at a party/singles
event.

)> Or from a "safe" distance, like across the street,
)
)     No, almost even worse.  It would seem too much
)like heckling.

It depends on the size and location of the city (IMO)!

A big city - New York, Chicago - no.  A smaller city, esp in the
south, yes.
From: peri@cco.caltech.edu (Michal Leah Peri)
Newsgroups: soc.women
Subject: Re: Vietnam Women's Memorial Project Kicks Off Countdown to Dedication in 1993
Date: 18 Nov 1992 22:45:31 GMT
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
NNTP-Posting-Host: punisher.caltech.edu

dswartz@sw.stratus.com (Dan Swartzendruber) writes:

>I was under the impression that the original memorial was *not* excluding
>women; that if a woman died, her name was eligible for the wall.

I thought there were some half-dozen or so women's names on the wall,
women who died in Nam.

							--  Michal
Newsgroups: soc.women
Subject: Re: Derrogatory terms for men and women (was Re: <none>)
From: <RIPBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Date: Monday, 23 Nov 1992 15:08:13 EST
 .ca> <9873@armltd.uucp><1992Nov20.173154.1@mdcbbs.com> <1992Nov21.225109.5703@dragon.acadiau.ca>
Organization: City University of New York/ University Computer Center

A woman going away on vacation brought her female dog to the vet (who also
ran a kennel) to be kept for a while.

"And how long will you be leaving your bitch with us?", said the vet.

The woman looked shocked.

"Surely, you have heard that word before?", said the vet.

"Yes, but never as applied to a dog!" answered the woman.  :-)

Rohit Parikh
From: hwatters@armltd.uucp (Helen Watters)
Newsgroups: soc.women
Subject: Re: Back Again To Father
Date: 18 Nov 92 13:47:38 GMT
Organization: Advanced RISC Machines Ltd

Will Steeves posted and he is not the first

>This is why I support some sort of technological advance which will *safely*
>allow the "foetus" to be removed, without harm to either the woman or the
>child.

I support this in theory, but I am worried about what will happen
when it becomes a reality.
Why?
I cannot believe, that this operation would not carry more risk to
a woman, than an abortion.
And if it was a reality, abortion would then be banned. So a woman would be
forced to be submit to a bigger risk than if she had an abortion, either
a riskier operation or have the child.  And suppose no one wanted the foetus
and abortion was banned what then?  And don't tell me abortion wouldn't
be banned, there are plenty of people who are anti abortion, who
would see this as a real gift, to get rid of what they consider, a 
terrible evil and to hell with the consequences for the woman concerned.

I know this option is not a reality at the moment, but it will probably
become one in the future.  I will only support this proposal, if
there is good evidence, that the operation carries the same or
less risk to a woman as an abortion and that if it carries a higher risk
you could guarentee that no woman would ever be forced to go through
this operation as opposed to having a termination.

Helen
Newsgroups: soc.women
From: gembura@acs.ucalgary.ca (Jerry Robert Gembura)
Subject: why
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 92 19:12:08 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: The University of Calgary, Alberta

How come that 99.9% of articles in this group are written by men?
Just curious.
Jerry


Xref: sparky soc.women:19794 alt.feminism:4620 soc.men:19475
From: gwangung@byron.u.washington.edu (Roger Tang)
Newsgroups: soc.women,soc.men
Subject: Re: Get a CLUE, a LARGE CLUE
Date: 16 Nov 92 17:29:26 GMT
Article-I.D.: u.1992Nov16.172926.7845
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle

In article <1992Nov12.092842.2703@mdcbbs.com> rivero@mdcbbs.com (Michael Rivero) writes:
>In article <1992Nov12.044519.25609@midway.uchicago.edu>, mec6@quads.uchicago.edu (rini) writes:
>|> I'm fairly sure that statements like "You black people sure do 
>|> know how to dance!" are considered racist in many places.
>  That depends on whether it is meant as a sincere compliement or not,
>don't you think?

	No.

	And that's the problem.


-- 
	"I got into theatre originally to pick up girls. Unfortunately, all I
found were women..."
e-mail:  gwangung@u.washington.edu
Newsgroups: soc.women,alt.feminism,soc.men