From: Will Steeves <goid@zooid.guild.org>
Subject: Guilty of ... THOUGHTCRIME!
Note: Quoted Out of Context ... AGAIN
X-To: DAN KING
Organization: The Zoo of Ids
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1992 02:39:00 GMT


king@raul.nas.nasa.gov (Dan King) writes...
DK> It would be tough to come up with a more convincing argument for spousal
DK> notification than this one here.  I'll be archiving this post just so I
DK> can remember this argument um... was that FOR spousal notification.

Yes, Dan, it *was*, but my comments were *only* meant to be taken within a
*very* hypothetical context.  And unless you have *really* misunderstood me,
you will realise that I believe that *all* violence is wrong, and is *never*
justified!   But if you believe that it can't happen, or that it cannot
be done by "normal" people, then I would say that you are incorrect.  Indeed,
even "normal" people, when pushed beyond the breaking point, (as shameful as
it is to admit, we *all* have one), are just as capable of it as anyone.

Besides which, I was quoting my *thoughts and feelings*, and you don't have
to be Sigmund Freud to know that what one feels, has little correspondence
to what one actually does.

Can you honestly tell me that you have *never* thought "I'm going to beat up/
smash in/kill/etc that stupid idiot" if you were in a situation where you
have been insulted, or betrayed, etc. ; you did not, of course, commit actual
violence, but letting out your anger through your *thoughts* is a powerful
healing mechanism which often helps to prevent actual violence from happening.
Crossing the line is another matter entirely, but most of us have never
committed violence, but only the true saint has never ever had violent
*thoughts*, and even *they* have probably done so as well.

Except for *one* fight at the age of *eight*, I have never committed violence
against *anyone* (and I am even ashamed of the *one* fight that I was in ...
hardly the mark of a serial killer, which is the picture you have painted of
me), but I would be a fool to say that I have never had the *thought* - Are
you *really* going to say that it has *never* even crossed your mind, Dan?


DK> >You can call it "male violence against women,"

DK> I guess it kind of depends on what you mean by killing her.  Were you
DK> planning on using a non-violent means of killing her?


I was referring to the fact that I just *knew* that people were going to
accuse my *thoughts* of being *actual violence*, as you seem to have done.

This is what I mean, when I say that you have made yourself my judge, jury,
and executioner on the charge of Thoughtcrime.

I was speaking QUITE figuratively, Dan.  *She* herself often said "There are
times when I thought of killing you," which I thought were quite extreme,
but I knew that she was only speaking from anger, *not* from any intention
of committing violence.  When I spoke similarly, I meant the exact same
thing.


DK> >but how would *you* feel if
DK> >someone deliberately kept something from *you* for such a long time?  (like
DK> >for instance, husband had an affair, etc?).  You *might* even be angry enou
DK> >to be driven to violence as well, especially if the delay had been long, so
DK> >before condemning me for making such a strong and unambiguous statement, pl
DK> >consider the context within which I made it.

DK> No I would not resort to violence.


Sure, but I'll bet the back forty that you at least *thought* of it.  My
only crime was talking about it in public, *just* to make the point that this
sort of situation can be *very* stressful.  I was *not* attempting to show
any sort of "control," over anyone, as you seem to have.  Indeed, the only
place where "control" comes into play is the fact that one loses control
over *ONESELF*.  Oftentimes, people who have lost self-control, or control
over their situation, will attempt to control someone whom they view as
causing the situation.  This *is* wrong, and while it did *not* happen to me
(although you have misinterpreted what I said to mean that I did attempt to
do so), it *can* happen, and something MUST be done about it.

This is why I am starting a support and counselling referral group.  I *know*
just how much men in this situation feel like the system ignores them and
has nothing but contempt for them, how they might even be "responsible" and
take her to every counselling appointment, but will be looked at with total
malice if they attempt to enter the appointment, as though they have no right
to have their feelings heard.

Most men are given *no* chance to express their feelings, especially if the
women they love, and who supposedly love them, refuse to speak honestly and
openly, and stand a *great* chance of having more than just evil *thoughts*.

Whether you believe it or not, I am trying to *STOP* the violence that comes
from the distress of this situation.  I want to give men someone to talk to,
someone to express their feelings to, and show them that there *are* people
who care, and to help them handle their anger.

I was not as able to handle my anger and grief as well as I should, but I
*never* committed violence.  I am even ashamed that I *thought* of it.


DK> The woman in not property of mine that I can do whatever I want with.

I never said that I thought that of her, Dan!  Why are you putting words in
my mouth?   If I *had* thought of her as property, I would probably have used
force to stop her - I did no such thing, *because I respected her*.  I hated
what she did, but I loved her and respected her nonetheless.


DK> for reminding us what kind of Neanderthal still exist out there.  Just
                                  ^^^^^^^^^^^

Look, I came out, honestly and openly with the fact that I *dared* to have
violent *emotions*.  You and about five others, slammed me and called me
"Neanderthal," "sexist," "anti-women," "walking time bomb," and a thousand
other names.

Yet I am going to respond to you all in a cool, calm, rational, and
non-warlike manner, in spite of the fact that I probably *ought* to flame
you all to Kingdom Come for being so insulting.

No offense meant, but now tell me who the Neanderthal is?

---
Will Steeves, goid@zooid.guild.org                      "Neil Hull is GOiD"
ZOOiD BBS, Toronto, Ontario - The Zoo Of Ids            "GOiDS Rule"
(416) 322-7876
---
 * SLMR 2.1a * Few people have the imagination for reality.
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