HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: srctran@world.std.com (Gregory Aharonian)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada
Subject: Re: Who uses Ada??
Date: 11 Nov 92 15:14:54 GMT
Organization: The World


>>  Well.. Let's see how good I am at the assertion game.  Anyone who knows
>> anything about software metrics in the real world, knows how faulty a
>> measure of project size and significance the LOC count is.  Cheers, cheers
>> for such a vaccuous observation!!

Cheers, cheers for this parody of a stinging rebuke.  Which observation is
vaccous?  Dr. Feldman's (and other postings on comp.lang.ada) of Ada projects
with LOC count prominently displayed, or my rebuttal with real world measures.

In case it was me, let me generalize:  for all voluntary decisions regarding
the choice of a computer language, any measurable demographic (money spent,
people hired, lines of code, tools used, reusable software used or bought),
for Ada is exceeded by most older languages (Cobol, Fortran), most newer
languages (C/C++), or parity for niche languages (Lisp, Forth, Basic).

And just think, I was about to say something nice about ATT's success with
the use and reuse of its birthed language, C++.

In fact, how about finding out how much C/C++ code that all of ATT has.
I don't think I have ever seen such a summary anywhere.

Greg Aharonian

-- 
**************************************************************************
Greg Aharonian
Source Translation & Optimiztion
P.O. Box 404, Belmont, MA 02178
From: uesu03@giac1.oscs.montana.edu (Lou Glassy)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada
Subject: Ada/Ed: a PC-XT (8088) version?
Date: 12 Nov 92 23:49:10 GMT
Article-I.D.: coe.1992Nov12.234910.29569
Organization: Montana State University, Bozeman  MT

A question for those of you who've used Ada/Ed.  Is it possible
to compile the sources for Ada/Ed to run on an 8088-based PC (not
386) ?  Have you tried to do this?

I know Ada/Ed is not exactly zippy on the 20-Mhz 386's we have here,
so obviously it would run even more slowly on an XT-class machine...
but a NEC-V20-powered Grid laptop is what I have at home, so I'm wondering...

Thanks in advance,

Lou.

-- 
Lou Glassy (uesu03@giac1.oscs.montana.edu)   Watch the field behind the plow
Earth Sciences Department                    Turn to straight, dark rows
Montana State University                     Put another season's promise
Bozeman, Montana 59715 USA                   In the ground...  --Stan Rogers
Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada
From: jessop@ljohub.enet.dec.com (Class Dinosauria)
Subject: Re: Fun Survey
Reply-To: jessop@ljohub.enet.dec.com (Class Dinosauria)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 17:10:24 GMT


1) Native Language: English

1b) Computer Languages (in order learned): VAX BASIC, FORTRAN-77,
	COBOL, VAX Macro, Pascal, Ada, C

2) First Language programmed in: VAX BASIC (very extended language)

3) First Assembly platform: uVAX II, VAX Macro...

4) Which compiler would you buy (no cost constraint): For a PC?  No idea...

5) Which compiler would you buy (with cost constraints): Again... for a PC
	I have no idea... I'm most fluent on a VAX...  Learning PC stuff tho'!

6) Which compiler do you choose for small, general class, programming
problems?

Pascal...  I know it very well and lends itself to smaller projects...

7) Which compiler do you choose for large, general class, programming
problems (assuming such exist)?

VAX Ada...  no doubt about it!!
From: mark@irvine.com (Mark Schimmel)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada
Subject: c to ada
Date: 13 Nov 92 18:06:49 GMT
Organization: Irvine Compiler Corp., Irvine, California, USA

I've been overwhelmed by the response from people wanting the
translator.  I am currently responding to those of you who are sparc
users and then will continue to other unix platforms.  I'd appreciate
any help from people who have received translators who might like to
help distribute it.  Like Nike, just do it.
From: crispen@efftoo.boeing.com (crispen)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada
Subject: Re: Computer languages
Date: 12 Nov 92 13:31:58 GMT
Organization: The Internet

Sorry for the heresy that follows, but every time there's any text
to process, it's C for me.  I've got a couple of C programs I wrote
for the last Ada program I was on that generated Ada text -- the idea
was to find the sizes of a bunch of interface data objects, so good
old Ada's 'SIZE attribute is wonderful.  But extracting the declarations
from various packages, putting them together to make compilable Ada
code (lots of file I/O, lots of text manipulation) -- that's a job
for C.

I even pragma Interface to printf for error/status messages.  There
is an advantage to that in our environment; you can pragma
Interface_Name it to logMsg in VxWorks so that you can print
even at interrupt level -- something that Text_IO can't do.

Of course, I didn't have to deliver these utilities.

A buddy of mine just did a big interactive text and file thing using
Ada and it took him 3 days.  I'm certain he could have done it in C
in half a morning.

Oh, yeah, heavy operating system interfaces.  I always do a quick
hack in C for things like sockets, rpcs and so on so that I know
I understand it.  Then I write some Ada bindings and redevelop in Ada.

Even on the most anally controlled programs there's going to be a
need for some quick, nasty hacks to get an unexpected job done
right away.  F-22 seems to doubt this.  Boy are they going to be
surprised.
+-------------------------------+--------------------------------------+
| Bob Crispen                   |           Co-workers don't           |
| crispen@foxy.boeing.com       +--------------------------------------+
| (205) 461-3296                |Opinions expressed here are mine alone|
+-------------------------------+--------------------------------------+
Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada
From: emery@Dr_No.mitre.org (David Emery)
Subject: Re: Who uses Ada??
Organization: The Mitre Corp., Bedford, MA.
	<1992Nov6.141916.21177@lambda.msfc.nasa.gov>
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 16:15:25 GMT

>the estimated difference in lifecycle cost (i.e. the total delta over
>the estimated 30-year life of a particular system) was $45 million
>HIGHER if Ada was the development language?

I'd very much like to see a reference/citation for this, as it flies
in the face of both deeply held religious beliefs and also most of the
available data (e.g.  Reifer studies, AFATDS preliminary data, etc).

				dave p.s.  I've seen some people come
up with higher start-up costs for Ada.  (In part due to retraining,
learning the language, etc, and in part due to front-loading the life
cycle by spending more time doing design.)  It's possible that someone
took the delta from start-up costs, and applied it into his favorite
old-fashioned cost model to obtain linear cost increases.
From: rlk@VisiCom.COM (Bob Kitzberger)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada
Subject: Re: MIL-STD-1553 interface?
Date: 5 Nov 92 19:28:06 GMT

> I wrote:
>
>Recently, someone posted a pointer to some work being done on developing
>a standardized Ada API interface to the MIL-STD-1553 bus.  I didn't save
>the pointer...

Here's the scoop:

	It's called the Generic Avionics Data Bus Tool Kit, developed
	under AJPO's Ada Technology Insertion Program, by the
	Manned Flight Simulator office of the Naval Air Warfare
	Center (don't call them, they're trying to get other work done).

	It's supposed to be available at the end of next week on the
	Ada IC BBS, 1-703-614-0215.  September 1992's Ada IC newsletter
	included an article on it.
	

   .Bob.
----------------
Bob Kitzberger          VisiCom Laboratories, Inc.
rlk@visicom.com         10052 Mesa Ridge Court, San Diego CA 92121 USA
                        +1 619 457 2111    FAX +1 619 457 0888
From: willett@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (david.c.willett)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada
Subject: Re: Who uses Ada??
Date: 9 Nov 92 17:41:37 GMT
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories

From article <SRCTRAN.92Nov8115517@world.std.com>, by srctran@world.std.com (Gregory Aharonian):
>    With regard to Dr. Feldman's list of use of Ada in non-mandated areas,
> his parody of comparative analysis was perfect.  ANyone familiar with the
> demographics of software in the real world will realize that even a list of
> the use of Lisp and Prolog commercial applications, and probably Forth also,
> exceeds the list and LOC counts for the Ada list.  Cheers, cheers for such
> a good parody !!!!
> 
> Greg Aharonian
> -- 
> **************************************************************************
> Greg Aharonian
> Source Translation & Optimiztion
> P.O. Box 404, Belmont, MA 02178

Well... Let's see how good I am at the assertion game.  Anyone who knows 
anything about software metrics in the real world, knows how faulty a measure
of project size and significance the LOC count is.  Cheers, cheers for such
a vaccuous observation!!

Dave

-- 
Dave Willett          AT&T Federal Systems Advanced Technologies
attmail!dwillett      (AT&T FSAT)
-- Some girls don't like boys like me.... Oh but some girls do!
	-- Sawyer Brown
Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada,comp.object
From: weide@elephant.cis.ohio-state.edu (Bruce Weide)
Subject: Re: OOD, Ada, and Inheritance
Organization: The Ohio State University Dept. of Computer and Info. Science
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 14:53:13 GMT

The questions about inheritance in Ada, and especially the responses
about inheritance being "simulated" in Ada, are interesting.  Those
who are REALLY interested in this issue would do well to consider
whether inheritance (as commonly practiced in OO languages) is
something you ought to want; see the paper by J.P. Rosen in the Nov
1992 issue of Comm of the ACM.

Cheers,
    -Bruce
Xref: sparky comp.lang.ada:3242 comp.lang.lisp:2841 comp.lang.c:16255 comp.theory:2382
From: mattb@ssc-vax (Matt Baney)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada,comp.lang.lisp,comp.lang.c,comp.theory
Subject: Looking for info on Reverse Engineering tools
Date: 10 Nov 92 05:44:53 GMT
Article-I.D.: plato.BxHJyu.Bwq
Reply-To: mattb@ssc-vax.boeing.com (Matt Baney)
Organization: Boeing Aerospace & Electronics

I got this request from a colleague who doesn't have access to the
net!!  Please reply via email either to me, or directly to Ms. Ricken
at rickend@net.a1.ca.boeing.com
thanks
mattb
------------------------------------------------------------

From:	NAME: Debra A Ricken                
To:	"mattb@ssc-vax.boeing.com"@bcsaic@mrgate

Mr. Baney

  I was wondering if you had a spare moment to view the Usenet for topics
that related to AUTOMATED SE TOOLS that takes an existing piece of software
and BREAKS IT BACK DOWN INTO THE STEPS OF DEVELOPMENT.  Such as data flow
diagrams, functional flow, or relationships between objects and/or functions
for the purpose of re-using the algorithms, or data flow, but not necessarily
re-using the actual routine.  Some of the keywords may be re-engineering,
re-use, reverse-engineering.  I'm writing a report regarding that seminar I
went to and I'm interested in finding out if there are other companies, or
even ours, who know about this, and where I can get general information.

  Maybe you could post it to the news for me with responses mailed to me,
or should (can I?) post it myself.




-- 
|  Matt Baney         | Boeing Defense and Space Division    |
|  -----------------  |   Knowledge Systems Group            |
| "I can't tolerate   | UUCP:        ..!bcstec!ssc-vax!mattb |        
| intolerant people!" | Internet:   mattb@ssc-vax.boeing.com |
Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada,comp.object
From: chambers@klamath.cs.washington.edu (Craig Chambers)
Subject: Re: OOD, Ada, and Inheritance
Reply-To: chambers@cs.washington.edu
Organization: University of Washington
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 92 22:45:08 GMT

In article <1992Nov13.203723.26049@cis.ohio-state.edu>, weide@elephant.cis.ohio-state.edu (Bruce Weide) writes:
|> ...
|> Or, by multiple implementations, do you mean to insist on run-time
|> selection among different implementations?  If so, what examples would
|> you (e.g., Ralph, or others holding this view) consider to be "good"
|> examples of the use of inheritance for this purpose; to be contrasted
|> with Rosen's examples, which are criticized as unrepresentative of
|> good OO practices?

In my implementation of the Self compiler, I use "run-time selection
among different implementation" to good effect in several data
structures.  One of the simplest is a collection of parse tree classes
(in C++), each for a different kind of language construct.  Simulating
this in Ada would require tagged variant records or something, without
behavior attached to each variant.  A more complex data structure is a
control flow graph, with different classes for each kind of CFG node
(e.g. add, branch, merge).  All CFG nodes support a common protocol,
but with widely-varying implementations.  No node knows what kind of
node is its successor or predecessor, only its interface.

I see the other side as part of teaching an undergrad compilers
course.  The compiler substrate that the students extend is written in
Ada, and the tagged variants, enums, and case statements that litter
the code are awful.  Adding a few new language constructs would be
simple in an OO implementation but is difficult in this "standard"
implementation.

-- Craig Chambers
Xref: sparky comp.lang.ada:3275 comp.object:4226
From: obry@flash.bellcore.com (Pascal Obry)
Subject: Re: Who uses Ada??
Organization: /u/obry/.organization
Date: 6 Nov 92 16:39:12


I'am one of them, and I find this very mean. How could I write C program
when I know that Ada exist ? but I must, and I think we are not alone Dave !!

When you work in group there is always the MUBTB rule.
Of course MUBTB = 'Make Uniform By The Bottom'.
You can't escape !!

But it's also true in others area (for example) :

	In France we want that 80% of peoples get their baccalaureat.
	Ok, But do you think that we try to improve the cources or
	pay more the teacher to get better ones ... No, we lower the
	level of the exams. It's the easiest solution, and this solution
	is include into the MUBTB class.

Pascal.
--

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--  Pascal OBRY								     --
--  Room 2D-337				e_mail : obry@bellcore.com  	     --
--  Bellcore								     --
--  445 South Street			voice : 1 - 201 829 4039	     --
--  Post Office Box 1910						     --
--  Morristown, New Jersey 07962-1910					     --
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  `` inheritance is surely a good answer, but who knows the question ? ''
Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada
From: dag@control.lth.se (Dag Bruck)
Subject: Re: Who uses Ada??
Organization: Department of Automatic Control, Lund, Sweden
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 06:55:40 GMT

In <comp.lang.ada> srctran@world.std.com (Gregory Aharonian) writes:
>
>In fact, how about finding out how much C/C++ code that all of ATT has.
>I don't think I have ever seen such a summary anywhere.

That would indeed be interesting; I guess it is much less than people
in general think.  For example, I don't think your local telephone
switch has any C++ in it.

For whatever it is worth, I recently saw an estimate that there are
some 500.000 users of C++.  I recall that the Moseman report indicates
something similar in the summary of the number of sold C++ compilers.

			-- Dag
Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada
From: mfeldman@seas.gwu.edu (Michael Feldman)
Subject: Re: DATA_ERROR exception problem
Organization: George Washington University
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 03:54:29 GMT

In article <EACHUS.92Nov4202155@oddjob.mitre.org> eachus@oddjob.mitre.org (Robert I. Eachus) writes:
>
>   The proper solution is to call Skip_Line after each call to Get,
>unless your user interface specification permits more than one integer
>value per line.  In that case you can either do a Skip_Line on error,
>or read into a String, and parse "by hand" when invalid input is
>encountered.  (I really suggest in any case throwing the queued input
>away when an error is encountered, but especially in an introductory
>class!)
>
Yep. That's how most of us teach it. Interestingly, many students - even
freshmen - want to know if there's a better way, so that input data can
be "batched" on a line. If they've studied strings yet, I tell them about
the "read it into a string" solution, let 'em know it's possible, and
go back to the Skip_Line thing.

Mike Feldman
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael B. Feldman
co-chair, SIGAda Education Committee

Professor, Dept. of Electrical Engineering and Computer Science
School of Engineering and Applied Science
The George Washington University
Washington, DC 20052 USA
(202) 994-5253 (voice)
(202) 994-5296 (fax)
mfeldman@seas.gwu.edu (Internet)

"Americans wants the fruits of patience -- and they want them now."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: michaeln@cs.uq.oz.au (michaeln)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada
Subject: Re: Who uses Ada??
Date: 12 Nov 92 16:21:39 GMT
Reply-To: michaeln@cs.uq.oz.au
Organization: Department of Computer Science, The University of Queensland

In article 25481@seas.gwu.edu, mfeldman@seas.gwu.edu (Michael Feldman) writes:
>In article <SRCTRAN.92Nov8115517@world.std.com> srctran@world.std.com (Gregory Aharonian) writes:
>I have gotten some private mail with a few more projects, and will fix the
>list up shortly. You'll like it even better then :-)

Hmm... yes, I'd be interested to see who uses Ada by choice. I've
been trying to use it for months now and really trying to keep an
open mind about it, but I really, honestly haven't been able to
see any merit in the language whatsoever. I'm more familiar with
functional and interpreted languages than imperative compiled ones
so maybe I'm just looking for the wrong things. Is there an FAQ
that might give some clues as to what aspects of Ada provide
programmers with a sense of freedom, or even with a sense that
the language has some .... no...   a   redeeming quality.

-michaeln
Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada,comp.object
From: mmaccorm@fox.nstn.ns.ca (Mike Mac Cormack)
Subject: OOD, Ada, and Inheritance
Organization: Micronav International
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 17:04:22 GMT

If Ada software is being designed using OOA and OOD, should inheritance be 
avoided (or prohibited) in the design process, as Ada does not provide 
inheritance? 



Mike Mac Cormack
Micronav International Inc
P.O.Box 1523 / 104 Marine Drive
Sydport Industrial Park,
Sydney, N.S. Canada B1P 6R7
Tel: 902-564-8833      Fax: 902-564-8764
Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada,comp.object
From: wellerd@ajpo.sei.cmu.edu (David Weller)
Subject: Re: OOD, Ada, and Inheritance
Organization: Ada Joint Program Office
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 19:09:21 GMT

In article <mmaccorm.47@fox.nstn.ns.ca> mmaccorm@fox.nstn.ns.ca (Mike Mac Cormack) writes:
>If Ada software is being designed using OOA and OOD, should inheritance be 
>avoided (or prohibited) in the design process, as Ada does not provide 
>inheritance? 
>

There are many projects being build in Ada that are applying OOD.
The project that I am on, the Space Station Verification and
Training Facility, is applying both OOA and OOD.  It is definitely
a non-trivial project, with an estimated total SLOC count of
2 million (I think SLOC is such a useless metric for government
projects, wouldn't "Pounds of Documentation" be more useful? :-)

Our inheritance is "manual", employing pass-through calls and
composition to simulate "real" inheritance.  This is very deliberate,
since we intend to quickly transition to Ada 9X, which will support
inheritance and run-time dispatching.  In the 30 year life of this
project, we felt that the early manual implementation of inheritance
would give bigger payoffs than choosing to ignore that feature.

It seems silly to sacrifice a design to fit in a current language.
Especially when you know that language will support those
"prohibited" features in about 2 years.


---- I can't speak for my company.  Not until I get this damn gag off!-------
David Weller,         | Space Station Training Facility: Like the real
CAE-Link,             | thing, only you can step outside for a breath
Space Technology Div. | of fresh air!
----I'm the Ultimate International Masochist: I speak Ada AND Esperanto!-----

Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada
From: patel@stc.lockheed.com (Sukesh Patel)
Subject: YACC & LEX in ADA
Reply-To: patel@stc.lockheed.com
Organization: Lockheed Software Technology Center
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 92 21:04:49 GMT

I am looking for public domain YACC and LEX (in Ada). Please e-mail information
on how I can access these tools.

Sukesh Patel
Lockheed Software Technology Center
From: BRADBEER@LEVA.LEEDS.AC.UK
Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada
Subject: Re: Ada to C/C++ translation
Date: 5 Nov 92 15:33:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: The Internet

Is anybody aware of any ADA to C/C++ translators? I would be gratefull of any
information anyone could forward either to the list or myself.

Thank you

Paul E. Bradbeer
BRADBEER@UK.AC.LEEDS.ICF.LEVA

CAD-CAM Data Exchange Technical Centre, Arndale House, Leeds, Headingley, LS62UU
United Kingdom.
Tel. (0532) 305005 Fax. (0532) 304488
Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada,comp.object
From: dag@control.lth.se (Dag Bruck)
Subject: Re: OOD, Ada, and Inheritance
Summary: Do we really need any module or package support?
Organization: Department of Automatic Control, Lund, Sweden
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 18:30:28 GMT

In <comp.lang.ada,comp.object> weide@elephant.cis.ohio-state.edu (Bruce Weide) writes:
>The questions about inheritance in Ada, and especially the responses
>about inheritance being "simulated" in Ada, are interesting.

Following the argument that inheritance is not essential for OOP
because (1) it is most important in the analysis phase, and (2), it
can be simulated:

There is no need for any module support in the programming language.
The modularization is made during the analysis phase, and procedure
and function names are sufficient to do the subroutine call.

Anyone care to comment?

		-- Dag
Xref: sparky comp.lang.ada:3196 comp.object:4145
From: emery@Dr_No.mitre.org (David Emery)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada,comp.object
Subject: Re: OOD, Ada, and Inheritance
Date: 5 Nov 92 19:20:31 GMT
Organization: The Mitre Corp., Bedford, MA.

Ada *does* provide a limited form of inheritance, via derived types.
Ada 9X will build on this for general inheritance.  

We've 'simulated' inheritance via generics.  This was a painful
process.  

Generally, if inheritance makes sense, then use it in the design, and
'manually code' it.  If all you need is inheritance, and not
polymorphism, that's easy to do.  Polymorphism requires a lot of case
analysis, which is somewhat more painful.

Finally, you might want to consider 'Classic-Ada', which is a
pre-processor that takes an "object oriented Ada" and translates it to
legal Ada.

				dave
Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada
From: emery@Dr_No.mitre.org (David Emery)
Subject: Re: Who uses Ada??
Organization: The Mitre Corp., Bedford, MA.
	<1992Nov6.141916.21177@lambda.msfc.nasa.gov>
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 16:15:57 GMT

>the estimated difference in lifecycle cost (i.e. the total delta over
>the estimated 30-year life of a particular system) was $45 million
>HIGHER if Ada was the development language?

I'd very much like to see a reference/citation for this, as it flies
in the face of both deeply held religious beliefs and also most of the
available data (e.g.  Reifer studies, AFATDS preliminary data, etc).

				dave 

p.s.  I've seen some people come up with higher start-up costs for
Ada.  (In part due to retraining, learning the language, etc, and in
part due to front-loading the life cycle by spending more time doing
design.)  It's possible that someone took the delta from start-up
costs, and applied it into his favorite old-fashioned cost model to
obtain linear cost increases.
Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada