From: hudson@athena.cs.uga.edu (Paul Hudson Jr)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Homosexuality and Christianity
Date: 13 Apr 92 23:06:31 GMT
Organization: University of Georgia, Athens

In article <adams.703197674@spssig> adams@spss.com (Steve Adams) writes:
>hudson@athena.cs.uga.edu (Paul Hudson Jr) writes:
>>If there is any doubt in the Christians mind as to
>>whether doing something is sinful, for example homosex (there should not be
>>any.  Both New and Old Testaments are explicit that it is.)  then the
>>person should not do it.  

>Fine.  Assuming for the sake of argument that you are correct, then this is
>true of any sin, not just homosexual sex.

True of any percieved sin.

As such, why are you so busy
>condemning homosexuals when you should be looking to your own sins first.
>(cf Matthew 7:3-5)  Unless and until you have removed all of your own sins,
>do not attempt to remove the sin of another.

By pointing this out, aren't you doing the same thing?
I think the passage not to judge is greatly misused.  Who am I judging?
As Christians we are certainly allowed to say, This is sin.  If we discuss
the topic of what sin is, then are we necessarily judging?  Of course not.

Paul was not perfect ("Oh wetched man that I am!")  yet he taught others
what was sin.  He wrote to flee from fornication, and from idolatry.  Was
he judging when he was clearly identifying sin?  

I am not the apostle Paul, but Christians are allowed to know what is sin.
Otherwise, anyone who ever quotes one of the ten commandments would be 
sinning.  

I am not accusing anyone in particular.  I am discussing a particular sin.
Even if someone does commit a sin, and it is obvious, we can go offer to
pray with him without judging.  The last verse of James tells of how we
are to help convert a brother who errs from the truth.  Paul writes of
how we are to go to a brother who has sinned in love, so that he might
be restored.  

>The example given previously about meat says that if a brother does
>something, I should honor what he does to keep him from falling.  The
>example given is eating meat.  But what of the homosexual Christian whose
>convictions say that God has not condemned him?

If homosexuality were a grey area, then the homosexual, for the sake of 
others consciences should stop homosexing.  A homosexual does not need
to feel convicted necesarily when he can open up Romans 1:25-27 and see
that what he does is condemned by the Scriptures.  I cannot imagine
how a homosexual who believes in Christianity as it is described in the
Scritpures, providing that he is not ignorant, and has some conscience
left, could possibly never feel guilty or have just a little bit of 
doubt that what he does is wrong.

>So, if it's a grey area, and the gay or lesbian person believes he is 100%
>right, then it's ok?  Exactly.  And it does appear to be a grey area.
>
>Why?  Because Leviticus does not apply to Gentiles.

It is not a grey area.  We have more than Leviticus.  Read Romans 1:27
and the surrounding verses.  You may be suprised.

> And as for Paul, my understanding of the texts is that the Greek
>is unclear, and cannot be translated directly to 'homosexuality.'  Perhaps
>one of the NT Scholars who does NT Greek can be of assistance here.

"Arseno" means man and "koite" means bed or sex.  I hear this is where 
"intercourse" and "coitus" came from.  (May have gone from Greek to Latin
but I am not sure.)  Anyway, it is not hard to see that arsenokoite may
have something to do with homosexuality.  I have read on s.r.c. that there
was some "artwork" that had clearly showed the word was connected with
homosexuality.  I think there is sufficient information to put enough
doubt into the mind of the knowledgable person so that they will know
it is unwise to engage in such acts, even without Romans 1:27.  But that
verse is more explicit and describes homosex as motivated my lust and
"indecent" (I think this is the NIV word.)

Also, look at the sins that were worthy of death in Levitus.  I have not
checked them all, but I do think  there are very few that we as Christians
would be allowed to do.  
For example, look at sleeping with one's stepmother.  Look at I Corinthians
5.  This is one of the sexual sins of the law, yet it is also unlawful
for Christians.  I think it is also worthy of death under the law.

Link Hudson.



>
> -Steve
>--
> The opinions expressed above are those of the author and not SPSS, Inc.
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>     adams@spss.com                           Phone: (312) 329-3522
>     Steve Adams                              Fax:   (312) 329-3558