From: sdodd@OES.ORST.EDU (Stephen M Dodd)
Subject: Re: Instructor/Agency Accountability
Organization: Oregon Extension Service, Oregon State University, Corvallis, Or.
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 07:38:57 GMT

In article <1992Jul23.200721.22158@hplabsz.hpl.hp.com> peterson@hpl.hp.com (Chris Peterson) writes:
>In article <1992Jul23.172802.3942@talon.ucs.orst.edu> sdodd@OES.ORST.EDU (Stephen M Dodd) writes:
>>Hi,
>>
>>I'd like opinion from those of you on the net involved in training
>>students about agency accountability.
>>
>>In one of my classes last night I heard a story about a non-certified
>>diver teaching another to dive and then the second diver when to someone
>>"selling" certifications and worked his way up to instructor ... and
>>then turned around and "sold" the first guy an instructor rating.  Thus
>>ending up with two bogus instructors.
>
>[flame will grow continually hotter until the end of this post...]
>
>I'm not sure I understood the mechanism you describe, but I think I understood
>that you've witnessed at least two bogus "instructors" acting unethically and
>dangerously.  The person originally "selling" certifications acted unethically
>(at best) and probably contrary to his agency's standards.  He is presumably a
>valid "instructor", and as such is subject to having his instructor ticket 
>revoked.
> 
  Indeed I have only "heard" these guys were instructors.  I was diving
  same ocean another group.  The scandal is years old and still goes on.
  further discussion reveals that our instructor is sure about the
  details.  Our people do not engage in any of this at any level.

  As to ultimate responsibility ... I'll raise the issue in a moment.

  First I want to assure you that my following comments are well
  intended.  The issue is not only these two individuals but rather
  agency accountability.

>>Both were later seen certifying divers who never made it to the water
>>because "we know they'll never dive anyway".  
>
>I am not aware of any agency that allows diver certification without open
>water dives (usually 4-5).  Again, unethical and contrary to agency standards
>
>>They kind of have the opinion that their instructor ratings allow them to take
>>anyone out, particularily girlfriends, without any classes.
>
>To a limited degree, most certified instructors can do this... 
>but again there are agency standards, and "community standards" that must be 
>followed.  They are probably increasing their legal liability if anything 
>(*anything*) "unfortunate" happens (including breaking up with their 
>girlfriends...).
>
>>The case is clear to those observing it.  And the conditions continue.
>>How's come the agencies don't catch up with them?  It's been at least
>>four years.
>
>The agency must know about the problem before it can take any action.  A signed,written statement is usually required before an agency will start disciplinary
>action.  The statement is best if it comes from another instructor from the

   And this is the true defacto answer to my original question regarding
   agency accountability.  You are telling me that it is my
   responsibility and that of my party and it's leadership to police
   this.  Yet we all dive under another agencies certification.

   You see, it's hard to get involved, under an advesarial legal system,
   when you don't have authority.  Your suggestion implies that I
   should be personally prepared to act as a vigalante for the
   agencies. NOT! It is the responsibility of the agency to police those
   it certifies to instruct.

   This all begs the question, to wit: Why doesn't the agency catch them
   for me.  If they can't, how should I.  I don't know their full names.
   I have only the first name of one.  They live in another town.  
   I have seen enough of them to avoid them.   If I follow them and
   make charges, I may have to pay large fees to prove it.  And even
   then, I've only proved that they violated the rules of their
   certification.  Without an injured party I still have nothing.
   Indeed I might get charged with something myself.

>same agency who has personally witnessed the problem.  List as many provable,
>observable *facts* as possible; rumors, and "your opinion" -- no matter how 
>righteous -- won't carry much weight.
>

   As I pointed out above, I expect the agencies to provide a system
   that polices it's own.  I have an interest in diving not police work.

>If you believe that the bozos' agencies do know about it, yet have taken no
>action, report it to your own agency (signed, written statement).  If in doubt,
>talk your own instructor, or your agency's local representative (branch 
>manager), training director, or executive director (if you want NAUI or SSI
>contacts, send me a message.)
>

   It's common knowledge with all of them.

>Take this type of stuff out of action as soon as possible.  All three of the
>"instructors" that you describe may be subject to disciplinary action by their
>certifying agencies.  Furthermore, these "instructors" are endangering the lives
>of those they teach.  An instructor's certification is a "license to kill"; 
>every student literally places their lives in our hands during training.
>-- 

   The individuals involved have been ostracised by our group for a long
   time.  They are in another agency.  Again, no one steps forward to
   put his shop on the line to attack these guys.  Besides as a
   "civilian" I am simply amazed that the agencies are all operating
   without "accountability".  By this I mean that they can't account for
   their own!  

   I bet a simple cross-check of what I've said here and the instructor
   numbers and those they've certified around here would reveal issues
   to consider in an agency self-evaluation.  I've taught school.  You
   can't teach without being formally evaluated by the students.
   Wouldn't that work to some degree to put pressue on instructors to be
   aware of their true responsibilities?  What about a mail in
   follow-up?

   There are a lot of other possibilities in addition to these for
   agencies assuming responsibility for their people.  I only guessing
   as to what might work.

>Chris Peterson                                     Hewlett-Packard Laboratories
>                                                    Research Computing Services

   Steve



-- 
- Stephen M. Dodd, System Analyst, Oregon Extension Service
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
sdodd@oes.orst.edu          Internet          Oregon State University
503-737-0699                                  Corvallis, OR 97331
Newsgroups: rec.scuba