HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: comp.org.decus
Subject: Re: EXECUTION of DECUS Standards
From: tp@mccall.com (Terry Poot)
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 14:30:57 CST
Reply-To: tp@mccall.com (Terry Poot)
 <16DEC199215294682@carat.arizona.edu> <1992Dec16.235647.4684@spcvxb.spc.edu>
Distribution: usa,local
Organization: The McCall Pattern Co., Manhattan, KS, USA
Nntp-Posting-User: tp


In article <1992Dec16.235647.4684@spcvxb.spc.edu>, killeen@spcvxb.spc.edu (Jeff
Killeen) writes:
>	1) The case is being made that leadership is out of touch because .2
>percent (20/1000=.2%) of the leadership does not attend sessions.  What I said
>the 1000 or so members of leadership are reflective of the active members to
>which the response is "Au contraire" because it can be shown 20 of them don't
>attend sessions.  The actions of 20 don't imply the actions of the other 980.

DECUS, like most organizations, concentrates power at the top. Those 20 people,
if they are out of touch, probably hurt DECUS more than any 100 other people
could. I'm not saying they are all out of touch. I only know even the names of a
handful of them, and don't know hardly any of them well enough to know whether
they are out of touch. However, they system makes it easy for them to be out of
touch, so over the long haul, many of them will be.

------------------
You follow this with the statement:

>For exactly the reason stated that "no sane employer would pay a Board member
>to go to DECUS and learn nothing" most, if not all, of those 980 a high
>consumers of DECUS products. 

Which, according to the following:

>Several of the most destructive members of past senior leadership groups
>claimed that their opinions were valid because they attended sessions and
>campgrounds and understood the voice of the customer - when in fact all they
>heard was what would validated their already preconceived ideas.  

means nothing at all.
--
Terry Poot <tp@mccall.com>                   The McCall Pattern Company
(uucp: ...!rutgers!depot!mccall!tp)          615 McCall Road
(800)255-2762, in KS (913)776-4041           Manhattan, KS 66502, USA
From: frank@rover.uchicago.edu (Frank - Hardware Hacker - Borger)
Subject: Re: EXECUTION of DECUS Standards
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Reply-To: frank@rover.uchicago.edu
Organization: Joint Center for Radiation Therapy
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 16:45:00 GMT

In article <lj24alINNrln@lisboa.cs.utexas.edu>, ctp@cs.utexas.edu (Clyde T. Poole) writes...

>DECUS is made up of LOTS of different "kinds" of people.  Some of
>those people like VAX Notes, some like All-In-One, some like e-mail
>and some like USENET news.  The unfortunate part is that as far as I
>know only a very few of the operating and administrative units of the
>Society (U.S. Chapter) can agree to consistantly use any one of the
>mediums as a way of communicating.  

	BINGO Clyde hit the nail on the head. ('cept he left out a couple
	of people I know who don't like any of the above.) You can't please
	'em all. Example. Should an electronic version of the newsletter be:

	A/ Posted to USENET
	B/ A NOTES stream on DECUServe
	C/ A NOTES stream on DCS
	D/ E-mailed automagically to subscribers every month
	E/ Available via anonymous FTP from DECUS.ORG
	F/ (Insert your favorite suggestion here)
	G/ (Repeat A-F above for each SIG in DECUS)

	Send that question out to 10 different DECUS members, and you will
	get 11 replys back, each arguing why THEIR way is the ONLY way that
	that member can truly take advantage of our product.

>Clyde T. Poole - Finally has a job offer and may not be unemployed much longer

	GOOD LUCK!!!

   Frank R. Borger - Physicist    __       Internet:  Frank@rover.uchicago.edu
Michael Reese - Univ. of Chicago |___      Phone : 312-791-8075 fax : 567-7455
  Center for Radiation Therapy   | |_) _   
                                   | \|_)  The covers of this book are too far
    "Birthplace of Softball"          |_)  apart. Book review by Ambrose Bierce
From: dsroberts@beckman.com
Newsgroups: comp.org.decus
Subject: Re: How DECUS does business (Was Re: EXECUTION of DECUS Standards)
Date: 18 Dec 92 11:33:10 PDT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Beckman Instruments

In article <18DEC199210451163@rover.uchicago.edu>, frank@rover.uchicago.edu (Frank - Hardware Hacker - Borger) writes:
> 	BINGO Clyde hit the nail on the head. ('cept he left out a couple
> 	of people I know who don't like any of the above.) You can't please
> 	'em all. Example. Should an electronic version of the newsletter be:
> 
> 	A/ Posted to USENET
> 	B/ A NOTES stream on DECUServe
> 	C/ A NOTES stream on DCS
> 	D/ E-mailed automagically to subscribers every month
> 	E/ Available via anonymous FTP from DECUS.ORG

Actually the problem I see, and it occurs every time discussions like this come
up, is that the ONLY acceptable solutions (be it newsletters or leadership
communication or whatever) are those that satisfy everybody.  This is an
attitude problem on the part of leadership.  You're asking the wrong question
here, Frank.  The question should be why don't we provide what we can now with
the resources we have available and provide more as we can?

The fact is that IS NO one solution.  DECUS cannot economically finance a
be-all solution.  Leadership seems to think that DECUS MUST do all or nothing. 
The newsletters are a good example of this.  Joel has offered DECUS an
opportunity to satisfy SOME users with an electronic distribution.  But since
there are some users who cannot take advantage of this, leadership stonewalls
providing this solution.

I see this happening in DCS discussions over and over again.  And any time
something new is suggested that's low cost, it often gets shot down for this
very non-reason.

IF it can be done at little or no cost, but it satisfies the needs for SOME
DECUS members, why not do it?  Why should the fact that this solution doesn't
address some OTHER members needs stop this solution from being implemented?

DCS to NEWS is another example of this.  This can be done only for the cost of
running a newserver on either DCS or DECUServe.  But DECUS leadership has
consistantly stonewalled every suggestion to do this.  Simply because it
doesn't address the needs of those without news.

This is stupid, o leaders.
-- 
   Don Roberts                   Internet:  dsroberts@beckman.com
   Beckman Instruments, Inc.     Phone:     714/961-3029
   2500 Harbor Bl. Mailstop X-12 FAX:       714/961-3351
   Fullerton, CA  92634          Disclaimer:  Blame me, not Beckman.
   "Abortion isn't a 'choice', it's the slaughter of the innocent"
Newsgroups: comp.org.decus
Subject: Re: EXECUTION of DECUS Standards
From: jms@carat.arizona.edu (A virtually vegetal non-entity)
Date: 18 Dec 1992 16:58 MST  
Reply-To: jms@Arizona.EDU
Distribution: usa,local
Organization: University of Arizona MIS Department - Mosaic Group
X-Lunar-Date: 0 days, 4 hours, 22 minutes since the last quarter of the moon
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50A   

In article <18DEC199210451163@rover.uchicago.edu>, frank@rover.uchicago.edu writes...

>	You can't please
>	'em all. Example. Should an electronic version of the newsletter be:
> 
>	A/ Posted to USENET
>	B/ A NOTES stream on DECUServe
>	C/ A NOTES stream on DCS
>	D/ E-mailed automagically to subscribers every month
>	E/ Available via anonymous FTP from DECUS.ORG
>	F/ (Insert your favorite suggestion here)
>	G/ (Repeat A-F above for each SIG in DECUS)
> 

Well, let's see.  Here's the list that I proposed to the Newsletter
editors (Las Vegas), Comm Comm (Florida), and DECUServe XCOM (California):

Internet, DECUServe, CompuServe, America On-Line, GENIE, Fidonet, Usenet
Montly LUG meetings, national Symposia, Regional Symposia, Seminars
Library
CD-ROM
FAX
mail

Everyone there seemed to like that list.

I don't know what upper management thinks, since I've never asked them.
Frankly, if they think that they can restrict the distribution of an
electronic newsletter to one or more avenues, then they're completely
clueless.  And all this time I only thought they were generally clueless
:-) :-) :-)

However, if we do an electronic newsletter, it'll be available ALL of those
ways (or as many as we can find people to disseminate with).  My question
for you folks is: did I leave anything out?

jms

Joel M Snyder, 1103 E Spring Street, Tucson, AZ, 85719 
Phone: 602.882.4094 (voice) .4095 (FAX) .4093 (data)
BITNET: jms@Arizona  Internet: jms@arizona.edu  SPAN: 47541::telcom::jms
Yow!  Did something bad happen or am I in a drive-in movie??
From: killeen@spcvxb.spc.edu (Jeff Killeen)
Newsgroups: comp.org.decus
Subject: Re: EXECUTION of DECUS Standards
Date: 17 Dec 92 05:04:42 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: SPC Community Access System

In article <1992Dec16.075630@mccall.com>, tp@mccall.com (Terry Poot) writes:
> Maybe. But what they were doing is informing the membership of a decision that
> they felt the membership would disagree with. Whatever their motives, it is true
> that a) the membership wouldn't have heard about this till much later if those
> people hadn't spoken outside of official channels, and b) at least some of the
> membership thinks it was an utterly stupid decision and would very much like it
> reversed.
> 
> Note that the reorg flap happened the same way. Without postings here from
> leadership people explaining what the change really meant, many people would
> probably have gone along simply because the board recommended it. And given that
> dissenting opinions were given much less space in the official ballot than the
> proponents, it was the only way most of us would have heard about the whole
> thing.

Ouch!  That one hit home...

-- 
Jeff Killeen - DECUS U.S. Chapter NLC Chair | Email:killeen@eisner.decus.org

DECUS is for folks who are responsible for delivering computing technology.
The NLC is the national council for DECUS's Local User Groups - come join us!
Newsgroups: comp.org.decus
From: tencati@nssdca.gsfc.nasa.gov 
Subject: Re: speaker recognition
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: NASA - Goddard Space Flight Center
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 17:46:00 GMT

In article <1992Dec16.135829.29641@umbc3.umbc.edu>, themos@umbc5.umbc.edu (Mr. Themos Pentakalos; ADMIN-COMP) writes...
>Hello everyone.
> 
>I was wondering if all the hundreds of speakers that come to DECUS
>to present their ideas, get some type of recognition. (eg. a "thank-you"
>letter, a certificate of participation, etc.)
> 
>For the first time, I gave two sessions last week and now I am back
>to work and noone believes me... :-)

Themos,

Contact someone in the SIG(s) on whose behalf you spoke. The SIG Chair
will be more than happy to supply you a letter on DECUS letterhead 
thanking you for your participation. The letter can even be sent 
directly to your boss underscoring how valuable and important your 
contribution to DECUS as a speaker was.

I don't know which sessions you gave, but I know my SIG (Security) 
routinely gives such recognition, but unless you're a Seminar 
presenter, you have to ask for the letter.

Please accept my thanks and congratulations for helping to make 
the Fall 1992 symposium a resounding success!

Best Regards,

Ron Tencati
Security SIG Steering Committee
Tencati@Topaz.Decus.Org
Newsgroups: comp.org.decus
Subject: Re: EXECUTION of DECUS Standards
From: jms@carat.arizona.edu (A virtually vegetal non-entity)
Date: 18 Dec 1992 16:51 MST  
Reply-To: jms@Arizona.EDU
 <17DEC199211335228@carat.arizona.edu> <1992Dec18.150244.4707@spcvxb.spc.edu>
Distribution: usa,local
Organization: University of Arizona MIS Department - Mosaic Group
X-Lunar-Date: 0 days, 4 hours, 12 minutes since the last quarter of the moon
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50A   

In article <1992Dec18.150244.4707@spcvxb.spc.edu>, killeen@spcvxb.spc.edu
(Jeff Killeen) writes, for 248 full lines, ...

Jeff, if your goal is to squash discussion through sheer number of words, I 
think that you're very close to success.

On the other hand, if you want to convince your audience, you're going to
have to do a lot better than this.  10 screens is not debate; it's ranting. 
Go back, think over your argument, and express it simply and succinctly. 
While you're at it, take some time to spell and grammar/punctuation check
your article.  This tome/missive is both too long and too incoherent for a
rational reply.  There's nothing we're talking about here which requires
30 blocks of refutation.  

Consider this exercise: the New York times has given you 500 words to
make your case.  How would you state it?

jms

Joel Snyder - DECUS Standards and Newsletter dude | Email: jms@Arizona.EDU
DECUS is for people who are overweight or are underweight. Come join us!
From: bruce@ais.com (Bruce C. Wright)
Newsgroups: comp.org.decus
Subject: Re: EXECUTION of DECUS Standards
Date: 16 Dec 92 22:08:11 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Applied Information Systems, Chapel Hill, NC

In article <1992Dec16.083736.5901@ais.com>, arthur@ais.com writes:
> In article <1992Dec15.143628.4673@spcvxb.spc.edu>, killeen@spcvxb.spc.edu (Jeff Killeen) writes:
> 
> stuff deleted
>> 
>> Terry most of upper level DECUS leadership has become very interested in input
>> from the customer.  In fact we have some very solid organized research efforts
>> going on right now.  However if we are going to be honest most of the postings
>> on this subject have been from DECUS Leaders/insiders trying to incite a riot
>> to reverse a decision they did not agree with.  Very little has been heard
>> from the membership/customer.  Prior to yours - the one membership type
>> posting was so vitriolic, so full of obscenities, and so much a general knee
>> jerk attack that did not relate to the issue at hand IMHO I am surprised
>> anyone responded to it. 
>
> Maybe the thing most disturbing about this entire discussion is how obvious
> it is how great the chasm is between DECUS leadership and the general
> membership.  Nearly every posting by someone from the leadership side 
> reinforces that view.

Arthur,

You're too kind.  I would have been tempted to put `leadership' in quotes
or to add [sic] after it.

Bruce C. Wright
From: jms@carat.arizona.edu (A virtually vegetal non-entity)
Newsgroups: comp.org.decus
Subject: Re: speaker recognition
Date: 16 Dec 92 22:32:00 GMT
Reply-To: jms@Arizona.EDU
Distribution: world,local
Organization: University of Arizona MIS Department - Mosaic Group
X-Lunar-Date: 5 days, 12 hours, 11 minutes since the full moon
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50A

In article <1992Dec16.135829.29641@umbc3.umbc.edu>, themos@umbc5.umbc.edu
(Mr. Themos Pentakalos; ADMIN-COMP) writes... 
> 
>I was wondering if all the hundreds of speakers that come to DECUS
>to present their ideas, get some type of recognition. (eg. a "thank-you"
>letter, a certificate of participation, etc.)
> 

You get a nice green ribbon.  Depending on your SIG, you may get more
or less recognition.  I got a nice pen with a hi-lighter on one side and a
ballpoint on the other that says "Digital."  Of course, I only gave 3
sessions.  But I also got several very sincere "thank yous," a few email
messages from audience members, and got to make some very good contacts.  

So, no recognition, really, but quite rewarding, personally and
professionally.

Joel M Snyder, 1103 E Spring Street, Tucson, AZ, 85719 
Phone: 602.882.4094 (voice) .4095 (FAX) .4093 (data)
BITNET: jms@Arizona  Internet: jms@arizona.edu  SPAN: 47541::telcom::jms
Yow!  It's a hole all the way to downtown Burbank!
From: themos@umbc5.umbc.edu (Mr. Themos Pentakalos; ADMIN-COMP)
Subject: speaker recognition
Organization: Univ. of MD, Baltimore County
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 13:58:29 GMT

Hello everyone.

I was wondering if all the hundreds of speakers that come to DECUS
to present their ideas, get some type of recognition. (eg. a "thank-you"
letter, a certificate of participation, etc.)

For the first time, I gave two sessions last week and now I am back
to work and noone believes me... :-)

They all think I spent all my time playing slot machines...

Thanks. Please answer to:	themos@umbc5.umbc.edu

-Themos
From: kaplan@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Steve... friends don't let friends do DOS.)
Newsgroups: comp.org.decus
Subject: Staff layoffs - Huh?
Keywords: symposia, braindamage?
Date: 20 Dec 92 20:37:00 GMT
Distribution: world,local
Organization: University of Arizona MIS Department
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41


As many of you know, DECUS is going through the same economic trauma that
DEC (and the rest of us? - yes) are.  So, it came of no surprise to me to
hear that 6 of the DECUS staff were to loose their jobs when they returned
to Shrewsbury on the Monday after the recent fall 1992 Las Vegas Symposium.

On the road over this last day or so, I ran into some DECUS friends who had
very disturbing news:  Nancy Wilga (Meeting Coordinator) and Joanie Mann
(Meeting Planner) were two to get the axe (along with some lessers and
temps).  As I understand it, if there was anyone on the staff that was
responsible for the smooth operation of the Symposia (major cash cow of the
U.S. Chapter?) that it was them?  Further, I have heard that they were
offered jobs over at the DECUS Trade Show by Tally (the show management
company).

Huh?  Is there something wrong with this picture?  Will the Symposia
Committee all quit?  Who did this to them?  Why were they let go?  Would
one of you leadership luminaries tell us all what the hell is going on?

RayK 8)
Newsgroups: comp.org.decus
From: lsnyder@ieee.org (Laura Snyder)
Newsgroups: comp.org.ieee
Subject: reminder
Date: 18 Dec 92 14:55:52 GMT
Organization: IEEE Service Center, Piscataway, NJ


Attention:  IEEE Student Branch Officers

Your Student Branch has been working hard and recruiting new
members during these key fall months.  NOW is the time to send
those new applications to the IEEE Service Center.  If you send
them to us immediately, we will do our best to process them to be included
in the December 31, 1992 year-end statistics and begin membership services
for these individuals.  Remember, next year's rebate (operating money for
your Branch) is based on these statistics.  We appreciate your efforts to
recruit new members throughout the year and will continue to process all
applications as we receive them.  Thank you for your support of the IEEE on
your campus during 1992 and happy holidays!

Sincerely,
Laura J. Snyder
IEEE Student Services Coordinator
Newsgroups: comp.org.sug
From: fgreco@shearson.com (Frank Greco)
Subject: SUG Summary?
Organization: Lehman Brothers
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 22:09:11 GMT

Does anyone have any highlights/lowlights of the 1992 SUG conference?

Thanks,

Frank G.
--
+-On Assignment at: Lehman Brothers-+-Office: Mercury Technologies, Inc.-+
| World Financial Center, 11th Floor| PO Box 529                         |
| New York City, NY 10285 Desk: 1515| Fanwood, NJ 07023                  |
| email: fgreco@shearson.com        | email: fgreco@mercury.com          |
From: dwight@hyphen.com (Dwight Ernest)
Newsgroups: comp.org.sug
Subject: Re: Slides from SUG Show '92
Date: 20 Dec 92 15:19:55 GMT
Organization: Hyphen, Inc., Wilmington, MA 01887 USA / +1 508 988-0880

jipping@cs.hope.edu (Mike Jipping) writes:

>Several Sun employees who spoke at the SUG show this year said that they
>were going to place their slides on "sunsite.unc.edu".  I've checked
>there a couple of times now, and have yet to find any slides.

>Are they coming, or am I just not finding them?

I checked as well, and not finding any talks there, I wrote to many of
the presenters whose sessions I'd missed, and asked them for their talks.
Most of those I asked responded by sending the material to me personally.
I can and should place these talks in sunsite.unc.edu, but wish that
placement to be coordinated by someone who can organize the archive
there appropriately.  Email to me will yield the list of those whose
talks I've received.
-- 
--Dwight A. Ernest   R&D Manager (USA)     I speak only for myself.
  Hyphen, Inc./181 Ballardvale St./Wilmington, MA 01887/+1 508 988 0880 x125
  dwight@hyphen.com
Newsgroups: comp.org.sug
From: jipping@cs.hope.edu (Mike Jipping)
Subject: Slides from SUG Show '92
Organization: Hope College Dept of CS
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 19:32:34 GMT

Several Sun employees who spoke at the SUG show this year said that they
were going to place their slides on "sunsite.unc.edu".  I've checked
there a couple of times now, and have yet to find any slides.

Are they coming, or am I just not finding them?

Thanks.

      Mike Jipping
      Hope College Department of Computer Science
      jipping@cs.hope.edu  (BITNET: JIPPING@HOPE)

      "It was a marketing coup ... to rename SunOS 4.1.X to 
       Solaris 1.0.  That way, Solaris 2.X could be called 
       an upgrade..."
                                    -- Rob Kolstad, SUG '92
From: carolyn@usenix.ORG (Carolyn Carr)
Newsgroups: comp.org.usenix,comp.org.sug,comp.org.uniforum,comp.os.misc,comp.misc,comp.unix.admin,comp.unix.large
Subject: USENIX Winter 1993 Technical Conference - Birds-of-a-Feather Information
Keywords: USENIX Association
Date: 19 Dec 92 01:23:06 GMT
Organization: Usenix Association Office, Berkeley


         USENIX WINTER 1993 TECHNICAL CONFERENCE

                   JANUARY 25-29, 1993

       TOWN & COUNTRY HOTEL, SAN DIEGO, CALIFORNIA


BIRDS-OF-A-FEATHER (BOF) SESSIONS
Tuesday		January 26	6:00 pm -10:00 pm
Wednesday	January 27	6:00 pm -10:00 pm
Thursday	January 28	8:00 pm -11:00 pm


If you wish to set up a BOF session please contact:

USENIX Association
Conference Office
22672 Lambert St., Suite 613
El Toro, CA  92630
Telephone (714) 588-8649 
FAX: (714) 588-9706





Newsgroups: comp.org.usenix
From: phil@pex.eecs.nwu.edu (William LeFebvre)
Subject: Re: bringing family to Usenix
Organization: EECS Department, Northwestern University
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 20:32:37 GMT

In article <BzB8o6.K4p@news.iastate.edu> john@iastate.edu (John Hascall) writes:
>grob@chorus.fr (Lori S. Grob) writes:
>}john@iastate.edu (John Hascall) writes:
>}>tommy@boole.att.com writes:
>}>}henry@ADS.COM (Henry Mensch) writes:
>}>}$tommy@hilbert.att.com (Tom Reingold) wrote: 
>}>}$->I'll be at the January Usenix in San Diego.  Since my company pays my
>}>}$->airfare, I figure I'll take my family.  It's a good time for a vacation
>}>}$->and I've never seen San Diego.  How do people manage this?
>
>}>}$ you don't.  a conference is not vacation (unless you are defrauding
>}>}$ your company); it is work.  
>
>}So while it is clear that for you, the conference ends at 5pm, I
>}think that you are being a little quick to assume that this is the 
>}case for everyone.
>
>Oh, this is just rich.  *I'm* being a little quick to assume???
>I'm not the one painting everyone who doesn't attend every second
>of every event with the broad brush of ``defrauding your company''.

I think you are misinterpreting that original comment.  I took it to
mean "a conference is not a vacation unless you are getting the
company to pay your way when you have no intention to participate in
ANY aspect of the conference."  I seriously doubt that (um, who was it
that said that) Henry meant you were being fradulent by keeping
evenings to yourself.  I think you are way way overinterpreting it....

		William LeFebvre
		Computing Facilities Manager and Analyst
		Department of Electrical Engineering and Computer Science
		Northwestern University
		<phil@eecs.nwu.edu>

Newsgroups: comp.org.usenix