From: Simon@censis.utas.edu.au (Simon G. Greener)
Subject: Re: Uniting Church
Organization: CenSIS, Universiry of Tasmania
Distribution: aus
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 00:48:00 GMT

Folks, this is going to be an emotive flame so press 'D' (or whatever) if
you don't want to read it. A more calm posting may occur some other day!

In article <ricko.717837046@ee.uts.EDU.AU> ricko@ee.uts.edu.au (Rick Jelliffe) writes:

>                                                 {I`ll certainly
>agree that in abortion there are two wounded people, the mother and her
>child, both of whom require help.}

I certainly agree that they require help! But I want to make a point with
regards this *utterly* selfish view that women have that it is only their
choice and only an choice between their desires and their desires! Come 
on you guys out their stop cowering before women's apron strings - you 
got them pregnanat and this is an act that results from the self-
giving action of two people. Feminists have been complaining for a long
time that man's society made them non-persons, now feminists (and some
Christians - yes even in the Catholic church - agree with them) do it to
unborn humans.

Now I'm about to be a father and I'm utterly blown away by the whole 
experience. I see my child in my wife's womb - through ultra-sound (18
weeks, yes folks it's healthy but we decided long ago that come what may 
we would have whatever God gave us and see his suffering son in that child - 
who knows, maybe it might become another Leonard Cheshire - God rest his 
wonderful soul - or an gold medal winner at the disabled olympics, or even a 
druggy dying in the gutter from a lack of human love - God's face on earth - 
who maybe still in his heart realises that this is a fallen world and that 
God did care enough to send his son...) and it waves at me (I told you it 
was going to be emotional), sucks its thumb, smiles and etc. Science tells 
me it is a completely formed human being (stuff the personhood debate - that'
s nice when you don't want to admit the consequences of what you have done 
and created - cf Singer, Khruse et al and their arguments for infancide). Go 
stick you heads in the sand folks, people are out there choosing not to 
loose face or income (pride), choosing their own comfort over the life of 
another human...... Choosing life often means choosing pain, those of
you who are christians should understand this....

Psalm 139 speaks well of the unborn infant...

	"For you created me in my inmost being;
	you knit me together in my mother's womb.
	I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
	your works are wonderful,
	I know that full well.
	My frame was not hidden from you
	when I was made in the secret place.
	When I was woven together in the depths of the earth,
	your eyes saw my unformed body.
	All the days ordained for me were written in your book
	BEFORE ONE OF THEM CAME TO BE."  (my emphasis)

A friend of mine remembers the days when Bertram Wayner started his 
little money making venture in a house across the road from his 
flat. He often used to tell me of the days he watched people going in and it 
still makes him angry to think of those guys who used to pull up outside in 
their cars, give their girlfriends the money and then SIT OUTSIDE whilst she 
went and enacted her right to choose..........

Think about this... this society is all about freedom without responsibility
and this is typified in our sexual attitudes....

A theologian, philosopher friend of mine once tried to persuade me that the 
modern world has lost the sense of true fatherhood and that one of the 
mistakes feminists have made is to accentuate this.... Now as I watch the
decline in christian belief in christianity as a revealed religion, the
loss of moral reference points, and now an attempt to replace the Trinity
by a collection of functions - Creator, Saviour and Sanctifier - (all this is
evidenced by the writings of both protestant and catholic theologians)..
and after reading - last night - C.S Lewis' 1948 essay against the 
ordination of women I now can't help thinking that maybe, just 
maybe she (my theologian, philosopher friend) was right...

The backyard abortion debate... since when did two wrongs make a right... 
Again I agree with all those who say that the problem goes deeper.....
Many of these problems are well addressed in a book on abortion "Abotion 
Australia" by Jane Buckingham and Anthony Fisher,Dove Collins (about 1982).

Tasmania and its homosexual laws.... well I live here... I have many 
homosexual friends (priests included)... and I believe that the law should
be struck down... but then this takes us into deeper issues of how socitey
should decide its moral laws (and it has to... cf smoking debate!)... but
then if I know that this will then help legitimate the push to teach 
homosexuality as a natural and valid alternative sexuality in schools what
should my response be then? But we have do do something to reduce 
homo-phobia that is in our society. This question of legislation takes us
into deeper issues of how society sdould decide its moral laws (it has
to and does cf smoking debate...).... Again another book.... D'Sousa (a
Canadian philosopher, I think) has written a book on this problem especially
in light of the US experiences with pressure groups... I'll find the title
for anyone who is interested....

To end on a positive note, thank God that some people are doing something
*positive* (Uniting Church and others take note..).... The "Missionaries of 
God's Love", based in Sydney, don't do Operation Rescue style things, they 
have simply dug into their pockets and hearts and opened a house for 
pregnant girls who feel trapped, alienated and have no-one else to turn to; 
they offer them a caring environment, prayer (not judgement or preaching - 
like I'm doing now) and a positive alternative! Pregnancy Action also offers 
support services in Melbourne...... Anyone know of others?

In Christ
Simon