From: 2huxvalved@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu
Newsgroups: alt.culture.indonesia
Subject: RE:Re:Your respond Mr.St
Date: 23 Nov 92 13:07:56 CST
Organization: University of Kansas Academic Computing Services



>If you don't want to take me at my word, fine. It was not intended as a
>political statement, but rather because several of the Portuguese posts
>earlier were from people who seemed either hostile or at least indifferent
>to Indonesia.  I've spent time in Indonesia, I've developed a number of
>close Indonesian friends, and I've cared enough about the place to learn
>Bahasa Indonesia dan sebanyak mungkin tentang kebudayaan dan kesusasteraan
>Indonesia.

   Good...if you indeed enjoy Indonesian culture....and literatures

>And, no, I'm not a Serb descendant.  Would it matter if I were?  What if I
>were a Croat or a Bosnian?  Does that give these words more or less
>legitimacy? Would it be impossible for a Serb to be against his government?
>It wouldn't even give my words more legitimacy if I were to tell you that
>six million of my ancestors were annihilated in WW2 because the world did
>not intervene in timely fashion.  The important thing is my character and
>the ideas I'm trying to argue.  If you don't like them, that is completely
>fair.  But you can't simply dismiss what I say on the basis of my
>ethnicity;  neither do I dismiss what you say because of yours.  I argue on
>the merit of the ideas themselves.

   See...how deep the prejudice in your societyis..? I just asked you...it was
just a question..! I remember my experience in computer e-mail. I had a female
friend through the mail...I'm a really curious person...i like to guess.
One day I sent her e-mail and I guessed that she was an Afro American. Do you
know what she said.......@#?!@...you knew it even though I never had any
bad words or any statement about anything. And I was right!
   

>You're right.  Determining the objectivity of a news source is extremely
>difficult.  That is why I said "seem," and why I think people should turn
>to as many sources as possible to try to reconstruct what appears to be the
>most likely turn of events.  In this case, there are many accounts from
>people who don't have the obvious stake in the situation of the Indonesian
>gov't or Fretilin.  I would suggest ruling out these two as unbiased
>sources of  information and trying to turn elsewhere for accounts of what
>is going on.


>What if these mistreatments are a result of the systematic planning of
>people in power?  How do we, the masses, then combat it, whether in
>Indonesia or the U.S.?

    In Indonesian case: what if not? --->assumption again...huh?!

>>And you should know that we, Indonesians oppose mistreat-
>> ments (including child abuse, sexual abuse, torturing women.-every 15
>> seconds...you know what I mean....).
 
>Actually, I'm afraid I don't follow you here.  What are you trying to
>insinuate?  That Americans don't oppose mistreatment or that no child abuse
>or sexual abuse occurs in Indonesia?

     Mana yang lebih brutal ? I meant di negara anda tiap 15 menit wanita
di perkosa, child abouse everywhere, sexual abuse everywhere, tiap 12 detik
wanita disiksa (TORTURE). Menurut data kasar dari POLRI di tahun 1990 (kalau
nggak salah), kasus pemerkosaan di Indonesia ialah 1 dalam 5 jam. Mana yang
lebih brutal ? I don't deny the brutality of some people in my country. I 
fight it, and all Indonesians fight it too. But the way many Indonesians
fighting is not just bouhaha and go to street...march to downtown. The way
we fight it (one very important example) is by teaching/giving/taking care
of our children and wife. Indonesian people are not people who like to ex-
press their emotion on public. If they do...it means that the problem is
VERY..VERY SERIOUS! So maybe you learn about Indonesian culture a bit here.

>>      Aha...cencorship...please don't teach us...my friend....
 
>I'm fully aware of gov't censorship in this country.  The bias in the
>reporting of the Gulf War is a good example.  I don't defend it anywhere. I
>can still say publicly that I think that U.S. policy is often evil without
>worrying that the C.I.A. will carry me away, however.

      Maybe, you're lucky this time. And the duty of CIA is not to take 
innocent people and interrogate them...I also can still criticize my govern-
ment...but again I'm not a 8-year old boy who cries and yell if he wants an
ice cream. I'm Indonesian...I have the way to express my opposition or critics.
      So  don't think that the fact that only some people march on the streets
of some cities means that many people neglect the problems we have. Don't
undermine other people. 


>I grant you this point; my wording might have misled people: the story I
>heard focused on worries that he was being or would be tortured, and not
>that it was a confirmed fact.

      no comment

 
>I don't presume that I completely understand what's going on in Timtim;
>it's a very complex situation and what I am urging is that people try to
>gather as much information as possible about what is going on from a
>variety of sources.  
 
      Don't you think we don't have any work other than typing and reading
postings ? Of course we try to find "objective" information....

 
>I'm happy to discuss our disagreements civilly, but please dispense with
>the cheap shots.  You do not know what I was doing when the U.S. invaded
>Panama.  You do not know that I was and remain deeply opposed to what the
>U.S. government did there.  You do not know that I was out marching against
>the U.S.'s actions against Iraq, because I believed-- and still believe--
>that the situation could have been resolved without the death of thousands
>upon thousands of Iraqi civilians, whose only crime was to have Saddam
>Hussein as a leader.

      Sorry if it was offended you. My point is that we don't know each
other. So I think it's not necessary to mention what you did but I hope 
you really did it.
 
>Of course not.  But it's better than sitting idly by, if *to the best of
>your knowledge* something wrong is going on. Perhaps the vast majority of
>the people of East Timur prefer the situation as it stands.  If you can
>demonstrate that to me, I will cease my opposition immediately.  To me,
>from all I've been able to determine from the sources I find most credible,
>the evidence seems to suggest quite the opposite.

      It seems to me that you're an active person (thumbs up from me)
But I became curious whether you have a job or not (rhetoric question).

 
>Hardly.  But none of us has immediate access to the tremendous amount of
>information that exists in the world; I may learn things which are of
>importance that I feel should be shared with those around me.  The opposite
>is also true; I welcome learning more from those around me.

 
>Are you saying that you think I'm lying or simply that we should condone
>the situation and let the gov't sort things out in its own good time?

      Do you know what they did so that they were very nervous ?
  they refers to your Indonesian friend.

 
>That's right, and if black South Africans don't speak out publicly against
>apartheid the gov't won't bother them either.  If the Tibetans just mind
>their own business, they need not worry about the Chinese gov't.

      I maybe got my message wrong. What I meant with "cari gara-gara"
was to disrupt or to insult government. 


>That's part of my whole point.  I think the U.S. is very, very far from
>perfect, and because I feel concern for this country, I do speak out about
>what I see as the many evils that are perpetrated here both by the gov't
>and the predominant ethos of white society. 
>Does a gov't have to be 100% right or 100% wrong all the time?  I don't
>take anything away from the considerable accomplishments of Indonesia. 
>This does not mean, however, that it is acting properly in East Timur as
>well.

      well I'm glad you didn't live in 18th century of America..
 
>True , many Acehnese-- probably by far the majority at this point-- quite
>happily consider themselves Indonesian.  You must be aware, however, that
>there has been a strong separatist movement in Aceh as well.  My point was,
>in fact, a concession to the gov't, in recognition of the difficulty of
>leading a nation with so many different ethnic groups, some of whom will
>want the right of self-determination if the situation changes in Timtim.  I
>can understand the gov't's difficulties in this situation, their fear of a
>possible Marxist presence in the midst of the Archipelago, etc.  It does
>not then follow that the violent suppression which has occurred was the
>proper policy. 

      I agree at some degree here. So would you tell us, Indonesians here
what is the proper thing to do ?


>Of course, I'm not East Timorese, but that doesn't mean I don't have access
>to sources which claim that my statement is true.  Perhaps, those sources
>are wrong; if so, I will no longer press for autonomy for Timtim.  If you
>have statistics other than those of either the Indonesian gov't's or
>Fretilin, please cite them here. Would you accept it if a U.N. commission
>were to hold a referendum for the people of East Timur?

     Referendum? What for? How can you ask the people who can't read and
write and maybe don't even know what a government is ? And because we are
sure that the majority will choose to integrate with Indonesia...what
a referendum is for ? If I'm the government, I will make a deal:

        If the people of TimTim want to be independent then we give
them TimTim. But if they choose to be part of Indonesia, those who press
for referendum MUST commit HARAKIRI.

        Do you still believe the UN ? If you belive the UN that means
you still believe the dominance of US in the world, you support the
Desert Storm operation, etc

>Believe me, I do look within frequently, both at myself and my country. We
>cannot begin to correct ourselves if we don't recognize our faults.
>If you can explain to me how there is something morally wrong with my
>stand, please do so and I will listen and think about it patiently. If it
>is simply that I have incorrect information, I will also be willingly
>corrected.

      Mr Stephen...again..I want to tell you : don't undermine us if we
don't march on streets, yell..words,etc.....we are not people who like
to show off. 

It seems to me that you don't understand the basic of Indonesian culture.

      Look at you.....you had spent much of your time by protesting your
goverment on streets (maybe). But...did all or even some of your protests
prevail ? I mean because of your protests, the govt stop the air sorties
suddenly (Iraq invasion)?

      I hope you still think of your wife........
 
>Do you think I approve of my government's complicity in this whole affair? 
>I condemn the U.S. for standing idly by and allowing this to happen because
>it suited their self-interest at the time.
 
      Yeah...it's fun to disagree isn't it ?
 
>I don't have quite the same fear of communism that you do.  I think the
>events of the last years have shown that it's a pretty lousy and unworkable
>economic system.  I don't think the world's stability is going to be
>threatened if Lithuania elects a communist leadership.  What one has to
>worry about is if they develop an imperialist mentality, such as the
>erstwhile Soviet Union once had.  That would be the danger.

      Yes..because communist didn't kill your ancestors!


>What do you want me to say here?  I'm as appalled as you are.  What if I
>tell you that my children will be half-Asian, and that I'm worried too
>about the treatment they might receive in this country?  Should I stop
>speaking up for what I believe is right internationally simply because
>there are so many problems here too?  Maybe you've heard the saying "Think
>Globally, Act Locally."  Thankfully, because of technology and an e-mail
>network, I can do what I believe is morally right on a global basis, by
>sitting and writing right here locally.
 
      Don't you feel guilty by bringing an asian wife ( I suppose your wife
is an Indonesian) to this country ? Did you read the new book by Prof Doro-
witz from Harvard ?

      Mr Stephen, Indonesian people don't have such words "Think Globally,
Act locally". why ? Because our purpose as a nation (the amendment) says
about "to support the International peace according to justice, freedom,
and...............etc". You can read UUD 1945, the preambule. Also we are
not N A T O ---No Action Talk Only  alience.
 

>Stephen 

    salam,

    Bagong...never laughed these days

ps: Some of my friends told me that my previous posting was too offensive.
    If you think so...I apologize. Again..if this posting is considered
    "kasar"...I apologize........my Jawa Timuran blood really dominated
    my posting....(Solo-Jawa Timur boy).


Newsgroups: alt.culture.indonesia