HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: lip@s1.gov (Loren I. Petrich)
Subject: The Antiquity of "Christmas"
Organization: LLNL
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 01:14:17 GMT


	As many of you net.pagans certainly know by now, the festival
of Christmas is a ripoff of various pagan festivals at that time of
year, intended to celebrate the upcoming return of the Sun to high
elevations in the sky.

	There is evidence of great antiquity of such celebrations, in
the form of various European megalithic monuments. Many of them had
entrances aligned to the direction of Winter Solstice sunrise, which
suggests that that time was a very important occasion for the
structures' builders. [One source: Marija Gimbutas's _The Civilization
of the Goddess_]

	The age of these monuments -- _at least_ 4000-5000 years (I
don't recall precise figures), typically, which is a lot longer ago
than when Jesus Christ lived.

	So there had never been any "Christ" in "Christmas" for much
of this holiday's time.

	Any good pagan renamings? Yule?

	Here in the Bay Area, I guess I'll be having a dank and damp
Yuletide season, and probably not a "white" one.
-- 
/Loren Petrich, the Master Blaster
/lip@s1.gov
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: ag055@yfn.ysu.edu (Ward Chanley)
Subject: Re: Nomenclature...i am confused
Organization: Youngstown State University/Youngstown Free-Net
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 03:42:35 GMT


re: "Black" magic & the Dark Moon

Well, depends on how you define black.
Dianic Wicca does hex, when in doing so
you're protecting the lives or well 
being of your coven, family, etc.

Other strains of women's spirituality
are opposed to the practice and don't
engage in any harmful or manipulative
magic whatsoever.

Both "brands" do view the waning, and
dark moons as proper times for
banishing work.  We banish sickness,
poor business trends, sexism, 
patriarchy, etc etc etc at this time.

-- 
I thank the Goddess for my life,
I thank the Goddess for my loves,
I thank the Goddess for continued blessings.
     -- Z Budapest
From: alizard@pil
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Why the Cross?
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 92 00:31:24 PST

Re: Re: Why the Cross?
 
> From: drake+@cs.cmu.edu (Drake)
> Newsgroups: alt.pagan
> Subject: Re: Why the Cross?
> Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 22:19:35 GMT
> It may also be that their Christ was not, in fact, crucified.  He may
> have been executed as the Law suggests - by stoning, and then hung on
> a tree.  (The cross is a "tree" only in the imagination of some
> Christian writers.)  Paul and certain evangelists could have used
> the image of Christ dying on the cross to convert some of the Romans,
> Or, in the earlier days, it may have been adopted to gain acceptance
> among the Roman underclass.

If my memory is correct, the cross was only used for ONE class of crime:
Crimes Against the Roman Empire... e.g. treason. The only way that people
in an underclass could be persuaded to identify with treason would be in the
case of SERIOUS disaffection. (workable in Judea, but in other places in
the Empire?) Disaffection so serious that people could openly advocate treason
without the slightest worry about people reporting their statements to the
authorities. 
Blessings
                                                 A.Lizard
====== 93 ====== sum saurus, sum saurus, sum maximus saurus! ====== 93 ======
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Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe)
Subject: Re: Why the Cross?
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1993 21:24:17 GMT

pst@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Peter Stephen Thomas Iii) writes:

>In article <31DEC199209572268@stars.gsfc.nasa.gov> puc@stars.gsfc.nasa.gov (Bernard Puc) writes:
>>> 
>>>One other point, something that always seemed odd to me:  there is so much
>>>emphasis upon the death of Jesus, but little on the truly big event, his
>>>resurrection 3 days later.  That, to me, seemed the biggest, most important
>>>event in the life of this prophet, yet in many contemporary re-tellings of
>>>the tale, this point is most decidely ignored.  Commentary?
>>> 
>>> 
>>What contemporary retellings are you referring to?  Xians celebrate Easter
>>which is on the day of resurresction.  That's a 'bigger' holiday than
>>Good Friday when the crucifying takes place.

>I was thinking of such plays as "Godspell" and "Last Temptation" just to name
>a few.  IMHO, they seem to leave the story hanging at a cruicial point and
>miss the truly beautiful event of the Ressurrection.

Well, Godspell is the Roman version.  JCSuperstar is the Protestant one.  The
Roman church is rather crucifixion (sp?) focused, as someone else pointed out.

>Agreed, maybe these aren't the definitive "examples" of Xian faith, but most
>symbology that I've seen <in Western Xianity anyway, my knowledge of Eastern
>Orthodox is rather small> is the Jesus dying on the Cross, rather than some
>symbol of his Ressurection.

Personally, I think that the Crucifix should only be displayed one day a year--
Good Friday.  The empty cross or the Christ Triumphant (the cross with Jesus 
sort of floating in front with his arms upraised) image should be used the rest
of the time.  Of course, this is only one Christian's POV.

Enjoy the journey!
                      --Br'anArthur
                                      Queer, Peculiar, and Wyrd! :-)

******************************************************************************
"We are secretly replacing the fine quartz crystals this medicine pouch maker
usually uses with Folgers crystals.  Let's see what happens...."
                                      --DACCrowell
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: boylan@sltg04.ljo.dec.com (Steve Boylan)
Subject: Time Zones (was: Re: Making contact - Was: A Darkover type circle)
Keywords: Circles, Contact over far distances
Reply-To: boylan@ljohub.enet.dec.com (Steve Boylan)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 17:41:31 GMT


In article <1hp5h1INNg46@unidui.uni-duisburg.de>,
hz225wu@unidui.uni-duisburg.de (Micaela Pantke) writes:

> The other problem (quite correctly stated from you, Corun) is the 
> fact that there are at least nine hours difference between Germany 
> and whichever timezone in the USA you're living in (I must admit 
> utter ignorance...  Germany is one hour behind (east) of Greenwich 
> Mean Time.)

* * * PEDANT WARNING! * * *

The "world standard" for time is Coordinated Universal Time, or UTC
(go ahead - I dare you - ask!), once known as Greenwich Mean Time (GMT).
Time in Deutschland is UTC + 1 hour.

The continental United States is divided into 4 time zones.  Roughly
typing, the Eastern time zone contains the Atlantic coast and about
half of the Great Lakes states;  this time zone is UTC - 5 hours, so
the difference between here and Deutschland is 6 hours . . . unless
you want to deal with Daylight Savings Time, when Eastern time is
UTC - 4 hours, making the difference 5 hours, unless you are using
Daylight Savings Time in Germany, which would make the difference
6 hours again . . .

Oh, sorry, excuse me!  Where was I?  Oh, yes!  It's now half-past
noon here in Massachusetts, which (if I'm doing my arithmetic 
correctly) is 18:30 in Germany.

The other time zones are Central (UTC - 6 hours), basically including
the Great Plains; Mountain (UTC - 7 hours), including most of the Rocky
Mountain states, and Pacific (UTC - 8 hours), covering the West Coast.
That's where you reach a 9 hour time difference;  it's about 9:30 in the
morning out there.

So, Stayka, do you have Daylight Savings Time in Duisburg?  For that
matter, where IS Duisburg?

				- - Steve, pedantic as ever!

--
Don't miss the 49th New England Folk Festival,
April 23-25, 1993 in Natick, Massachusetts!
From: cn573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ray Henry)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Pagan Music
Date: 23 Dec 1992 03:57:57 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


For those pagan metalheads out there (of which I am one on rare
occasions), has anyone heard of the group "Skyclad?"  I found
one of their cassettes a while back and was truly impressed.
The lyrics are very much in keeping with the pagan spirit of
life and yet this is a fairly hard metal group.  Way kuul!

Antryg
-- 
Ray Henry   cn573@cleveland.freenet.edu

Sometimes with Bill Shankster in piggyback.  :)
From: lib1p@elroy.uh.edu (Tammy Stark Blandino)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Documented Evidence
Date: 3 Jan 1993 00:47 CST
Organization: University of Houston
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: elroy.uh.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    

In article <C07KIM.LwE@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe) writes...
> 
>George Papp makes some interesting comments about oral tradition and evidence.
> 
>I, personally, am perfectly willing to accept oral tradition from someone who
>doesn't seem to be working straight out of Gardner's BoS.  However, both 
>Fam-Trads I know are incredibly unlike modern Wicca.  (They are also incredibly
>unlike each other, as the two people who I know, and who know each other, will
>agree.)  One is a tradition of some simple folk magic and some talents for 
>Healing.  The other is more a tradition of mysticism than magic, though every
>generation has had its share of magical practitioners.  *Neither* of them are
>religions, and both are unwritten.  I acknowledge that this sort of Fam-Trad
>exists, but I've seen no evidence of Wicca, or an ancestor religion of Wicca,
>existing before Gardner.  If anyone has some, I'd love to hear more about it.
> 

I started not to reply to this thread and I did say that I wouldn't, but I
noticed something earlier and my big mouth just won't let me stay shut up..:)

The way it seems to be comming out is that only Gardenarian Wicca is 
"Witchcraft" and only it is a witch religion.  Fam Trads are not because of
the fact that they are not Gardenerian, but only folk magic.  Therefore
you have no documented evidence of Wicca existing before Gardener.

Does everyone else see the circle that I do?

See why I don't want to argue it any more.....usless waste of time and energy.

Tammy
From: lib1p@elroy.uh.edu (Tammy Stark Blandino)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Why the Cross?
Date: 31 Dec 92 17:27:00 GMT
Organization: University of Houston
NNTP-Posting-Host: elroy.uh.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <1992Dec31.015158.7606@serval.net.wsu.edu>, bill@wsuaix.csc.wsu.edu (William E. Johns;S23015) writes...
>In article <29DEC199212214576@jane.uh.edu> lib1p@jane.uh.edu (Tammy Stark Blandino) writes:
>>
>>The early symbol of Xtianity was the fish, like is becomming popular 
>>today.
> 
>Why was the fish a symbol?  Anyone have a good idea?  Even a bad one might
>be amusing.  :-)

I have heard that it is because of the comment "shall be fisher's of men"....
but I don't have a DOCUMENTED source for that.....8-)

Tammy



> 
>Ride Free,

Every chance I get!


> 
>Bill
>________________________________________________________________
>johnsw@wsuvm1.csc.wsu.edu  prez=BIMC 
>AMA #500924   DoD #00314   WMTC #0002  SR= 3 
>Yamabeemer fjgs1200pdr100 740GLE  KotV KotRR KotD #0001  :-)
>\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
> 
>Guilt is the love of staying stuck.
> 
>                                          Hugh Prather
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: shugrue@spatial.eid.anl.gov (Leon Shugrue)
Subject: Re: Meaning of pentagram, pentacle for You
Organization: ANL
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 19:14:17 GMT

Yet another possibility. I have a friend who told me that archaeologists
found a pentagram in Jerusalem, dating back a few thousand years. If this 
is linked to the Jewish religion, then inverting the symbol would have the
same meaning as anti-Judaism. A minutely relevant example would be the 
modern gang symbol system (which are, in fact, based on religious symbology)
where inverting the symbol of a rival gang is analogous to displaying that
of your own gang, and denouncing the other. 
 
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson)
Subject: Re: Nomenclature...i am confused
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 20:36:52 GMT

holzman@d0gslb.fnal.gov (Daniel B. Holzman) writes:
: In article <1h2nh2INNoof@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>, cn573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu 
: (Ray Henry) writes:
: > In the strictest sense, a witch is a practitioner of the path of
: > Wicca or one of the very similar ways. It is the intentions of
: > the witch that determine whether he or she is "white", "black",
: > or "gray." (Some argue that there is no Gray Wicca, but that is a
: > different discussion.) 
: 
: I'd argue that there is no White or Black Wicca, either.  There is only Wicca.

Exactly - except in the minds of some people. It is always "Them" who are
practicing "black magic" - "We", of course, practice "white magic". Pah!

Bill
From: pst@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Peter Stephen Thomas Iii)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Why the Cross?
Date: 31 Dec 1992 17:51:38 GMT
Organization: Computing Services Division, University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.89.7.4

In article <31DEC199209572268@stars.gsfc.nasa.gov> puc@stars.gsfc.nasa.gov (Bernard Puc) writes:
>> 
>>One other point, something that always seemed odd to me:  there is so much
>>emphasis upon the death of Jesus, but little on the truly big event, his
>>resurrection 3 days later.  That, to me, seemed the biggest, most important
>>event in the life of this prophet, yet in many contemporary re-tellings of
>>the tale, this point is most decidely ignored.  Commentary?
>> 
>> 
>What contemporary retellings are you referring to?  Xians celebrate Easter
>which is on the day of resurresction.  That's a 'bigger' holiday than
>Good Friday when the crucifying takes place.

I was thinking of such plays as "Godspell" and "Last Temptation" just to name
a few.  IMHO, they seem to leave the story hanging at a cruicial point and
miss the truly beautiful event of the Ressurrection.

Agreed, maybe these aren't the definitive "examples" of Xian faith, but most
symbology that I've seen <in Western Xianity anyway, my knowledge of Eastern
Orthodox is rather small> is the Jesus dying on the Cross, rather than some
symbol of his Ressurection.

Peter Thomas

-- 
"I'll lose my beard when they shave it from my cold, dead face!"

Quote from the Razor's Anonymous Handbook
From: markbr%radian@natinst.com (markbr)
Subject: Re: Cats (was RE: Social inhibitions to environmental change)
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 18:43:43 GMT
Organization: n.o.y.b

In article <uDcmwB3w165w@brewich.hou.tx.us> donal@brewich.hou.tx.us (Donal) writes:
>mmelez@vax.clarku.edu writes:
>> In a previous article, boylan@sltg04.ljo.dec.com (Steve Boylan) wrote:
>> >In article <1hbkceINN3u9@leela.CS.ORST.EDU>, casspa@atlantis.CS.ORST.EDU
>> >(Paul Cass) writes:
>> >> Can someone kindly tell me why cats insist on standing on the keyboard
>> >> and presenting their fanny while you are trying to type.  This cat has
>> 
>>     (stuff deleted)
>> 
>> >Uh, Paul . . . that's a female (or one-time female) cat, right?  I hope
>> >I don't trip over any inter-species phobias, but that's an expression
>> >of, er, um, interest in, um, YOU know . . . making kittens.
>> 
>>     (more stuff deleted)
>> 
>> I wouldn't be too sure.  My cat used to do this to me and a female friend of 
>> mine.  In fact it became a ritual that every time my friend came over and 
>> petted Shana, Shana would provide my friend with a view of her fanny. (Shana 
>> an ex-female).
>> 
>besides, and I suppose it should be pointed out here, ALL cats, male and 
>female, regard ALL human cargivers as "Mama". According to the psych 
>boys, this is why a cat, raised from birth with humans, stays 
>"kittenish". They never truly leave the nest. 
>
>Oops, that should be caregivers above, not 'cargivers'. Cargivers are 
>DEFINITELY father figures... :)
>
>Blessed Be, and Purrrrrrrr!  :)
>
Donal!

How could you point out something so obviously *untrue*?! Cats *certainly*
don't regard all human caregivers as "Mama". They regard them as "servant".
After all, what are humans here for, anyway?

And *my* father never gave me a car (nor a rose garden, but then ...he
never ran for pres... definitely getting into serious absurdity, here...)

Happy new year, one and all, and may the new year be better than the old.

	mark

Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe)
Subject: Re: PAGAN, was You should be a Christian because (30 words max):
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1992 21:27:55 GMT

ag055@yfn.ysu.edu (Ward Chanley) writes:


> Can you back this with anything verifiable or academic?

>----

>I really don't see that as all that 
>necesarry; if you've chosen to take 
>issue with the attributions Tammy 
>makes for the words "Wicca" or "Witch"
>is it all that likely that she'll be 
>able to cite sources you'll consider 
>valid?

So, if someone can't back up hir statements, we should treat them as gospel 
because to do otherwise is to be narrowminded?

>Scott Cunningham defines "Wicca" as 
>"The Wise Ones" in his book _Wicca:
>A Guide for the Solitary Practitioner_.
>"Witch" and "Wicca" are both from the 
>Old English root "Wic", to bend.

Witch (with a small w) is just the modern spelling of wicca.  Wicca (with the 
capital W) is an artificial word created by mispronouncing the old word wicca.
There is theorising that the Old English wicc* comes from the proto-Indo-Aryan
weik*, which may mean to bend.  However, there is not absolute agreement on 
that among linguists.

Also, on what page does Cunningham define Wicca?  The only thing I can see
about linguistics in there is page xiv which is a linguistic note.  It begins:
"Much disagreement concerning the exact (and original) meaning of the word 
"Wicca" presently exists.  It's not my intention to enter into or add to such
discussions..."

Enjoy the journey!
                      --Br'anArthur
                                      Queer, Peculiar, and Wyrd! :-)

******************************************************************************
"We are secretly replacing the fine quartz crystals this medicine pouch maker
usually uses with Folgers crystals.  Let's see what happens...."
                                      --DACCrowell

>-- 
>I thank the Goddess for my life,
>I thank the Goddess for my loves,
>I thank the Goddess for continued blessings.
>     -- Z Budapest
From: boylan@sltg04.ljo.dec.com (Steve Boylan)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Here I am .... *yea* !!!!!
Date: 30 Dec 92 14:22:38 GMT
Reply-To: boylan@ljohub.enet.dec.com (Steve Boylan)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation


In article <23DEC199223235301@elroy.uh.edu>, lib1p@elroy.uh.edu
(Tammy Stark Blandino) writes:

> Well guys, here I am, at home, with my 'puter and modem, talking on alt.pagan.
> 
> 8)  8)  8)  8)
> 
> I guess y'all will be hearing my big mouth more often from now on.
> 
> (Is that a groan I hear our there?)
> 
> BB with all my love,
> Tammy the contented

Is THAT why my monitor was bouncing up and down here in Massachusetts?

Congratulations on your new arrival, Tammy!

				- - Steve


--
Don't miss the 49th New England Folk Festival,
April 23-25, 1993 in Natick, Massachusetts!
Newsgroups: alt.pagan,talk.religion.misc
From: drieux@wetware.com (drieux, just drieux)
Subject: The Pagan Thing, again
Organization: Castle WetWare Philosopher and Sniper
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1992 07:37:08 GMT

I know that its been said before, and will be said time and again.

pagan comes from the latin root that brought us paisano,
or also known in spanish as compasino....

Or one from the country. 

It took on added notions when the 'good people' got ahold
of it, and married it with the notion of 'civilization'
and 'progress' as some how being a fundamental notion of
Xtianity, and a part of the Mission of Xtianity.

ciao
drieux

ps: when I am in the bush, I am a pagan. When I am home,
my housemate complains if I light a fire in the living 
room to make dinner.... something about they have these
new fangeld rooms with stuff that does it..... 

He also thinks that running outside when it rains is
NOT his idea of personal hygene, who ever gene is....

HI! Gene!

NextWeek: the relationship between 'negro' and 'black'....


-- 
Modern Day Problems:

This is Not a .sigfile addendum to the Post.
You are just reading beyond the edge.
From: lib1p@elroy.uh.edu (Tammy Stark Blandino)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: PAGAN, was You should be a Christian because (30 words max):
Date: 28 Dec 1992 05:50 CST
Organization: University of Houston
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: elroy.uh.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    

My roommate would like to reply to this.....


In article <1992Dec28.013844.26572@news.ysu.edu>, ag055@yfn.ysu.edu (Ward Chanley) writes...
> 
>>So, if someone can't back up hir statements, we should treat them as gospel 
>>because to do otherwise is to be narrowminded?
>----
> 
>No, but I do think it gets tiresome
>when the entire newsgroup has 
>degenerated into arguments over the
>arcane points of history.
> 
>I don't care if Wicca is ultimately
>derived from a word meaning "Blind
>Women who Dance With Pigs"; we're 
>talking about changing the 
>connotation, NOW, in our modern culture
>of the word "Witch", which has, for a
>long time, been connected with stereo-
>types that practicing Witches aren't 
>too happy about.
> 
>If a language is going to live, it
>needs to be able to grow and evolve.
>If Tammy wants to believe that the
>word Wicca means the "Wise Ones",
>and yes, I too have come across the 
>same attribution, I don't think she's
>harming anyone by posessing that 
>belief.  She may not be 100%
>historically accurate, but who cares?
> 

It is an unfortunate thing that stereotypes are such a part of our culture.
Over the years people have tried to apply some label to just about everything.
Doesn't matter if it is god or race or type of music or whatever.  There is
no point to this in my opinion other than to inflame the targeted entities
or institutions.  And when that happens, words become secondary.  Blood
becomes primary.  If we as a culture can get beyond this notion of stereotyping
things we don't understand, then there maybe hope for us.  If we don't, we
are little better, than the animals we claim are beneath us. 

Blessed Be,
White Horse Running
(on Tammy's Account)


Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: pooh+@cs.cmu.edu (Will Timmins)
Subject: Re: Hiya Janis!
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 21:07:39 GMT

HI JANIS!

(I'm back, too... Hi everyone!)

The ex-wt0b, the:

-Me!


-- 
[Pooh Bear incarnate.                                             ]
[H1 C+ F+ W G+ K+ S+ R- E+ P                                      ]
[                                                                 ]
[To email, please make sure to mail to pooh@seismo.soar.cs.cmu.edu]