From: gwu@nujoizey.tcs.com (George Wu)
Subject: Re: China never as prosperous as Europe?
Keywords: predestination
Organization: Teknekron Communications Systems Inc.
Distribution: na
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1992 02:33:08 GMT

In article <1992Apr13.194910.15798@leland.Stanford.EDU>, underdog@leland.Stanford.EDU (Dwight Joe) writes:
> In article <t2wj1vj.kemnitz@netcom.com> kemnitz@netcom.com (Greg Kemnitz)
> writes:
> >In article <1992Apr12.005212.6475@leland.Stanford.EDU>
> underdog@leland.Stanford.EDU (Dwight Joe) writes:
> >>You can lay your suspensions to rest.
> >>
> >>At no point in Chinese history has China ever been as prosperous
> >>and well off as the USA or Western Europe.  Even if you reach back
> >>3000 years like the way many China-philes like to do, you will find
> >>that China was far worse than modern Western society.  There was
> >>no penicillin, no antibiotics, no Bill of Rights, no human decency
> >>(but that's always been true, hasn't it?), etc. in China.
> >
> >This contradicts the observations of Europeans who visited China in the from
> >the fourteenth century to the time of Napoleon.  Up until about the mid
> >nineteenth century, China was in many ways better off than Europe.
> >...
> 
> I meant that "At no point in Chinese history has China ever been 
> as prosperous and well off as the [MODERN = 20th century] USA
> or Western Europe".
> Mr. Kemnitz is doing what basically many people
> who identify with Chinese culture like to do.  Namely, in reponse
> to the charge that Chinese society is inferior to the West, they
> reach back centuries ago to find some point in time at which the Chinese
> did okay for that period of history.
> 
> But I say, let f(t, s) = relative figure of accomplishment, where
> "t" is an element of (start of time, 1992] and "s" is an element of 
> the set of all nations.  Then f(1992, USA) >> f(t, China) for
> ALL values of "t".  On the other hand, the Chinese like to play the
> following game:  the Chinese want to fix "t" at some point in 
> history like, say, "t = 10" and to say that China is great.  Baloney.
> 
> I stand by my statment.  "At no point in Chinese history has China ever
> been as prosperous and well off as the USA or Western Europe."  "Well
> off" does not refer only to the economic sense although many Chinese
> people are narrow-minded enough to think that.  "Well off" also refers
> to things like "equality of the sexes" and "freedom of speech".

     Simply because a culture doesn't measure up to present day America
does not mean all of that culture is dated, backwards, uncivilized, and
best discarded in it's entirely.  *THAT* is why people bring up arguments
using China's past successes.  The past shows Chinese thought has made
significant contributions for the betterment of man, Chinese and Western
man.  In fact, they've not just made small incremental contributions, but
at one time, were among the most advanced cultures of their time.  The
argument then follows that present day  Chinese culture, though "inferior"
in certain ways, may still just have significant contributions to make to
Western society.

     You, however, aren't willing to give them that chance.  In your
mind, Chinese society has been tried and found wanting, and the way of
life of hundreds of millions of people is to be terminated as quickly
as possible.  You call for the wholesale replacement of Chinese values
with Western values, without thought of conserving any of the positive
aspects of Chinese society.

     Look at any culture, including Western culture.  Are all their
best ideas, their greatest inventions, their most righteous causes,
their own?  All cultures are a blend of ideas, including some of the best
ideas invented elsewhere by other peoples.

     Look at the American system now.  Don't you think the injection of a
stronger sense of family and community could stem the growing educational
failures?  Wouldn't a higher value on education improve productivity and
reduce unemployment and crime?

     Don't write Chinese culture off yet, Dwight.  You're not omniscient.
Who are you to grandly condemn wholesale a way of life lead by hundreds
of millions of people.

							George

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