From: richard@paragon.folly.welly.gen.nz (Richard Parry)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Charging for training?
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 92 12:20:28 GMT
Reply-To: parry_r@kosmos.wcc.govt.nz
Distribution: world
Organization: Masterful Enterprises UnLimited.

Yo Mary!

In a wiseass mood again...? 8-)  Well, here's the retorts...

In article <MARY.92Nov15113437@martinique.Cayman.COM> mary@Cayman.COM writes:

 > SOME Americans who teach martial arts charge money.  Some don't.  
 > Of those who do, some make a profit.  Some don't.

Fair enough.  I was talking from my references, which included about 4
people who's sempai didn't make a profit, and about 20 who's sempai did.
Make bad odds...  You tell me.  If it makes a difference, the two areas
I was staying were Harbour City (LA, Cal) and New York (NY, NY :)

 > Different color uniform or different color belt or different color 
 > propeller on your beanie, what's the difference?  It's just rank 
 > insignia.  Some systems and schools use rank insignia, some don't.
 > BFD.

Go over the top, huh.  I agree with the precept that there should be
some indication of rank, for discipline reasons, and also for personal
gain.  But a whole new colour gi is like wearing a jacket with huge
letters saying, "I'm a tough guy cause I do karate..."

 > Body Alive?  What's that?

Ah.  I'll make an exception in your case... :)  It's a whole range of
pants and tops done in a modern fashion - you could even wear it on the
street.  Muscle-shirt type tops, multi-colour pants.  Could look quite
good, if you were into wearing Reebok stuff already.

 > Somehow I have a very hard time believing that every martial arts school
 > in NZ that charges money is operating on a "break exactly even" basis.
[snip]
 > Seems I was right...

Yeah.  One out of... uh, a few hundred, at least... is pretty good odds.
I dunno.  Ask around - maybe some other guys down here have heard about
clubs that I haven't.  But this Ninjitsu is definitely a McDojo.

 > Can I ask a really stupid question here?  Do you really feel that you 
 > can speak for all martial artists in NZ?  If not, why do you keep saying
 > "we"?

Gee, I dunno.  Why not?  I haven't seen any adverse commments (yet) from
the guys down here, and even recieved a few good ones.  Seems fair.

 > Really?  How much is that?

I dunno.  You tell me.  I can't quite remember, but it varied between
about US$5 per class, and about $100 per month.  Too much.  How much do
you pay?  I've been out of touch with the US for a while - last time I
was there was 4 years ago.

 > Somehow I don't think you have any idea about what the "average US citizen"
 > pays for MA training.  You have probably heard a few figures from a few
 > people, but I don't think you have any idea about what the "average" is.

Fine.  Lemme know when you meet one.

 > Okay, so let's see...70 paid members at US$12 a month is US$840.  Say half of
 > them are juniors, that's 35x12+35x3=US$550, if I'm not mistaken.  My sensei, 
 > on the other hand, is taking in a total of about US$210 a month.  He's renting
 > a space similar to the one that you describe.  Real estate costs in this area
 > are the third highest in the US, so I'm guessing he's probably paying more
 > than your sensei.  Oh, and by the way, he teaches two three-hour classes a 
 > week.

 > Are you paying too much or too little?  *grin*  Think about it.

Hm.  Let's see.  Space is worth $15 an hour.  That's, uh... 11 or 12
hours a week, say 11 (I'm not sure about the length of juniors classes).
Hmmmm....  11x15=$165...x4 months=$660, which is about US$390, I fink.
We get the space at slightly less than it should be.  I checked the
roster.  We actually have about 50 paid members, including juniors.  Hm.
25x12+25x3=$375...  $390-$375=US$15 per month.  That looks about right -
replacement bags every so often.  We bought the dojo a barbie recently,
for social occasions, which we're still paying off... ;)

That's the equivalent of two three hour classes (two 2 hour and two 1
hour) normal classes, a special 2 hour womens' class, and two special
1.5 or 2 hour junior classes (not sure).

 > Well, to summarize, I think you have a lot of valid points about 
 > commercialization of MA; however, your examples are flawed.  I cited

Fair enough.

 > are paying no more than you are, or perhaps less, for memberships in
 > university clubs.  Many of them have opportunities to train with very
 > fine teachers for a very small fee.

I wasn't including varsity clubs - down here, they're ridiculously
cheap.  Our style even offers one for $60 per year (which we give to the
Uni, I believe, so they buy the bags... I fink ;), which allows the Uni
students to train at our main dojo, plus two other 2 hour sessions at
the Uni itself.

 > Perhaps the best point of your article, and what you really should
 > have emphasized IMHO, is that there are alternatives available to 
 > someone who wishes to teach martial arts without "going commercial".

Hm.  I will ponder that or my next spiel... ;-)

 > But you should realize that your school has an advantage that others
 > of its type don't often share; that is, relatively high membership.

Well, we are trying to build it even more.  However, there are bigger
ones (I know of a South Island Judo club that has over 150 paid senior
members, I think), and smaller ones with less cost (I belonged to a
Hapkido dojang that charged $15 [US$8] a month, with about 8 members,
and an Aikido dojo, with about 15 members, at $10 [US$6] per month).
The way that small clubs survive is to be in accessable locations (ie,
schools) and get the space cheaper.  Larger school like ourselves get a
better space for about the same, as we naturally attract more members
for the flashy club... ;)  [It's a central city location, so people can
go right after work].

 > My sensei has a total of four students at present...not because he's
 > not a good teacher, but because jodo is perhaps not as exciting or
 > dramatic as a lot of other martial arts.  When a prospective student

Yeah.  I prefer a smaller class sometimes, and it's no reflection on the
teacher - can be the location, or (as you said) more dramatic arts
closer, or....

 > goes to see a karate class for the first time, they find it very exciting.
 > They get all charged up and are willing to give it a try.  The "hard 
 > long boring practice" aspect of it is not so apparent to them at first.
 > They see people doing all kinds of exciting things, and they want to
 > try too.  In contrast, when a prospective student comes to see one 
 > of our jo classes, the "hard long boring practice" aspect is very 
 > apparent, and the really exciting aspects of the art are too subtle
 > to be recognized by a non-martial artist.  Of ten people who take the
 > trouble to come and watch our classes, perhaps one will join.  Of the
 > ones who join, perhaps one in three or four will stay with it long
 > enough to learn to like it.  So our membership stays low.  A lot of 
 > people love to teach, but not many can afford to do so under those
 > circumstances.

Yeah yeah.  Same with us.  For every 10 people who watch, about 2 stay
(not for the same reasons; I belive it's because of the profile of the
MA in our country...), and for those two, about 1/3 stay after the first
grading (face it - gradings can be hard, and for the average Jo Fu, it's
not a nice experience).  Of that 1/3.... and so on, until you only get a
very few black belts.

Later!

Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts