HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Fletcher Prouty's New Zealand Story (JFK)
From: f_gautjw@ccsvax.sfasu.edu
Date: 17 Aug 92 09:32:43 CST
Distribution: world,local
Organization: Stephen F. Austin State University

In article <16AUG199221553913@skyblu.ccit.arizona.edu>, lippard@skyblu.ccit.arizona.edu (James J. Lippard) writes:
> In article <1992Aug16.234641.4485@augean.eleceng.adelaide.edu.AU>, dabbott@augean.eleceng.adelaide.edu.AU (Derek Abbott) writes...
>>Name one article with Oswald in it, before Nov. 63.
>> 
>>I doubt there is one.
> 
> When Oswald defected to the Soviet Union in November 1959, Richard
> Snyder of the U.S. Embassy in Moscow (and CIA) notified United Press
> International of the defection (around November 2).  UPI sent reporter
> Aline Mosby to interview Oswald a week later, and she wrote a story
> which UPI distributed and which appeared in the Fort Worth, Texas newspaper
> under the headline "FORT WORTH DEFECTOR CONFIRMS RED BELIEFS."  After
> Mosby, Oswald was also interviewed by Priscilla Post Johnson of the
> American Newspaper Alliance (and also an employee of the State Department)
> and another story was published by her on November 26, 1959.
>    In New Orleans in August 1963, Oswald appeared on WDSU TV following
> his court appearance regarding his altercation with Carlos Bringuier
> which occurred on August 9, made television again four days later with
> a pro-Castro demonstration in front of the International Trade Mart,
> and appeared on WDSU radio's "Latin Listening Post" program on August
> 17 and in a debate on the same station on August 21.
> 
> Why not do a little research yourself, Derek?
> 
> Jim Lippard              Lippard@CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU
> Dept. of Philosophy      Lippard@ARIZVMS.BITNET
> University of Arizona
> Tucson, AZ 85721

	I think any research done would prove more fruitful if it was
research to examine the methods of the CIA to plant disinformation rather
than quibbling over the details of wire-service technology of that era.
	Books by Agee (an ex-CIA agent who now lives in Germany and
can't even get a US passport anymore after CIA persecution), McGehee,
and Victor Marchetti, gofer boy for Richard Helms during this dark era,
who authored "The CIA and the Cult of Intelligence, et al, et al.
Xref: sparky alt.conspiracy.jfk:2945 alt.conspiracy:9929 sci.skeptic:14170
From: jxxl@taurus.cs.nps.navy.mil (John Locke)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Teen Agent, Can you Hear Me? Teen Agent, Can You See Me? (was: Clay Shaw is Clay Bertrand, Oswald *was* a Teen Agent
Date: 12 Aug 92 16:44:59 GMT
Reply-To: jxxl@cs.nps.navy.mil (John Locke)
Followup-To: alt.conspiracy.jfk
Organization: Naval Postgraduate School, Monterey CA

Bruce_Schuck@sfu.ca writes:

> >Oswald was only 20 when he went to the USSR, supposedly as a "CIA
> >operative." That means that his alleged training must have taken
> >place while he was literally a teenager.
> 
> So. They train teenagers to fly fighter planes.

NOT!!! You have to have a college education and go through a rigorous
flight training school which few people are able to get into.

> The sent hundreds of thousands of teenagers to Vietnam.

The term used to be "cannon fodder."

> There is evidence that the Office of Naval Intelligence had a program 
> designed to infiltrate the USSR by having young military personnel act
> disaffected and defect. The program may have infiltrated as many as 40
> military personnel , some for only a few weeks , into the USSR.

What is the proof that Oswald was involved in such a program?

> Between 1945 and 1959, only 2 US military personnel defected to the USSR.
> In the 18 months leading up to 1960, 11 men with military backgrounds
> or backgrounds with access to sensitive data defected.

Oswald's involvement with the Fair Play for Cuba Committee is an interesting
indicator of his motivations. He attempted to become involved with FPCC
through its New York leadership. They did not trust his intentions and did
not encourage him. However, he pretended to be running his own branch of
the FPCC in New Orleans, anyway, claiming greater membership than he alone.
Oswald was the ultimate poseur. He defected to become an important person
somewhere else. It didn't work. He repeatedly contacted the Soviet embassies
in the U.S. and Mexico as if they could give a shit. They didn't. Ultimately,
Oswald shoots Kennedy in what, I believe, was a desperate gesture to be
taken seriously by the Soviets. Oswald was a guy who could not accept that he
was a nobody.

John
Xref: sparky alt.conspiracy.jfk:3007 alt.conspiracy:10017 sci.skeptic:14384
From: dabbott@augean.eleceng.adelaide.edu.AU (Derek Abbott)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Teen Agent, Can you Hear Me? Teen Agent, Can You See Me? (was: Clay Shaw is Clay Bertrand, Oswald *was* a Teen Agent
Date: 15 Aug 92 08:06:33 GMT
Organization: Electrical and Electronic Eng., University of Adelaide

In article <1992Aug12.164401.19406@fys.ruu.nl> sdevries@fys.ruu.nl (Sjoerd de Vries) writes:
>
>About his wages: there are several things that indicate that Oswald
>spend more than his official earnings. His debt to the state department
>was paid too soon. Don't forget that the only tax form he ever filled out
>(I believe in 1962) is still classified (see Summers).
>

Very interesting.  How can we get it declassified?


Furthermore, $3000 worth of photographic equipment was found in Oswald's
room. That's not cheap in those days.

The fact that the rifle was a cheap $12 MC, doesn't sound like Oswald's
style.
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk
From: bill@turing.toronto.edu (Bill Monhemius)
Subject: Re: Justice Department
Keywords: Veto
Organization: CSRI, University of Toronto
Date: 14 Aug 92 21:07:41 GMT

>	This is supposed to be a government "by the people, of the
>people and for the people".  IMHO, that means WE are the government and
>officials from the President on down are our elected and/or appointed
>*servants*.  If indeed WE are the government, the WE should have access
>to these documents and judge for ourselves.

What kind of left-wing, hippy-radical, liberal statement is this?  If you
can't show any patriotism for the good 'ol USA then move to Russia!  8^)

(No flames please - just a joke.)

-Bill
-- 
+-------------------------------------------------+
|* * * * * *|%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%|
| * * * * * |            Bill Monhemius           |
|* * * * * *|%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%|
| * * * * * |            bill@turing.toronto.edu  |
+-----------+%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%|
|                        University of Toronto    |
|%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%|
|                        Turing Language Group    |
|%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%|
+-------------------------------------------------+
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk
From: tjfs@tadtec.uucp (Tim Steele)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk
Subject: UK Channel 4 TV "Secret History" on RFK assassination
Date: 18 Aug 92 21:22:30 GMT
Distribution: alt
Organization: Tadpole Technology plc

Last night a one hour documentary was broadcast on UK TV regarding the
RFK assassination.  The programme appeared to be of British origin.
While flawed in some respects (sections of archive film repeated
several times, presenter obnoxious, meaningless computer graphics)
they made a pretty good case.

Pointers to a conspiracy mentioned by the film:

- Strong evidence 10+ bullets fired - Sirhan Sirhan's gun only fired 8
- Ballistics evidence shows some bullets did not come from SS's gun
- Eye witness evidence and reconstructions conflict strongly with LAPD account
- Third parties' injuries not consistent with LAPD account
- Police protection withdrawn from RFK on the day of the assassination
- LAPD coercion of witnesses to fit in with their story
- Destruction of evidence by LAPD (partition, photographs, officer statement)
- Security classification of autopsy results
- Attempts to discredit coroner

A friend of mine was critical of the programme and said:

> Some of the other evidence didn't seem to stand up to much in the
> way of examination, either, such as claiming that a woman in the street
> shouting `We killed him' or whatever must therefore have been evidence of
> a conspiracy; as if a CIA assasin would stand around answering questions.

to which I replied:

  Yes, however, I think it most likely that the three assassins involved
  were recruited (and quite possibly brainwashed) by the CIA to do the
  job, probably through a third party, in such a way that they couldn't
  easily be traced back to the CIA if they were caught.  This fits in
  with the CIA attempts to kill Castro, which included giving his
  girlfriend poison in a jar of cold cream to put in his food.
  (Really!)

  The three of them were amateurs with just sufficient ability to do the
  job, not hardened professional assassins.  They may also have been
  brainwashed - I know a lot of poppycock is talked about this, but the
  psychiatrist said that 10-20% of people are highly susceptible, and
  the CIA could pick and choose.  Also the CIA's own Operation Artichoke
  papers show that they had success in programming certain individuals
  to carry out "killings" with no subsequent memory of their actions.

  The CIA had even stronger motives to remove RFK than JFK.  And they
  did for him...

Tim
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
From: jerryg@ssd.intel.com (Jerry Gaiser)
Subject: Re: <None>
Organization: Supercomputer Systems Division, Intel Corp.
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 17:22:44 GMT

In article <1992Aug17.074739.26068@u.washington.edu> cortez@milton.u.washington.edu (Tom Warner) writes:
>In article <1992Aug17.143844.1@cc.newcastle.edu.au> ccasm@cc.newcastle.edu.au writes:
>>
>>Isn't there a connection between the U2 flights, the CIA and Kennedy.
>>(or was that Eisenhower)?. 
>
>Eisenhower, mainly. The U2 was an espionage plane flown by the military,
>though, not by the CIA. I don't think they were used much during Kennedy's
>term, since Powers was shot down in '59.

Small point. U2's were still being used during the Kennedy administration
and did flyovers of Cuba during the Missile Crisis.
-- 
Jerry Gaiser
         Usenet: jerryg@ssd.intel.com
        Fidonet: 1:105/380
           PBBS: n7pwf@n7pwf.or.usa.na
Xref: sparky alt.conspiracy.jfk:3016 alt.conspiracy:10039 sci.skeptic:14435
From: lippard@skyblu.ccit.arizona.edu (James J. Lippard)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Fletcher Prouty's New Zealand Story (JFK)
Date: 17 Aug 92 04:55:00 GMT
 <1992Aug12.010738.24134@augean.eleceng.adelaide.edu.AU> <29647@ursa.UUCP> <1992Aug16.234641.4485@augean.eleceng.adelaide.edu.AU>
Distribution: world,local
Organization: University of Arizona
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <1992Aug16.234641.4485@augean.eleceng.adelaide.edu.AU>, dabbott@augean.eleceng.adelaide.edu.AU (Derek Abbott) writes...
>Name one article with Oswald in it, before Nov. 63.
> 
>I doubt there is one.

When Oswald defected to the Soviet Union in November 1959, Richard
Snyder of the U.S. Embassy in Moscow (and CIA) notified United Press
International of the defection (around November 2).  UPI sent reporter
Aline Mosby to interview Oswald a week later, and she wrote a story
which UPI distributed and which appeared in the Fort Worth, Texas newspaper
under the headline "FORT WORTH DEFECTOR CONFIRMS RED BELIEFS."  After
Mosby, Oswald was also interviewed by Priscilla Post Johnson of the
American Newspaper Alliance (and also an employee of the State Department)
and another story was published by her on November 26, 1959.
   In New Orleans in August 1963, Oswald appeared on WDSU TV following
his court appearance regarding his altercation with Carlos Bringuier
which occurred on August 9, made television again four days later with
a pro-Castro demonstration in front of the International Trade Mart,
and appeared on WDSU radio's "Latin Listening Post" program on August
17 and in a debate on the same station on August 21.

Why not do a little research yourself, Derek?

Jim Lippard              Lippard@CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU
Dept. of Philosophy      Lippard@ARIZVMS.BITNET
University of Arizona
Tucson, AZ 85721
Xref: sparky alt.conspiracy.jfk:3052 alt.conspiracy:10127
From: eriks@lin.foa.se (Erik Svensson FOA2)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: <None>...U2 Flights
Date: 19 Aug 92 07:22:31 GMT
Organization: FOA, Linkoping, Sweden

wb9omc@dynamo.ecn.purdue.edu (Duane P Mantick) writes:

>	The CIA did not keep their A12 Blackbirds for long, either.  By
>mid to late 1968 the mission was being done by the Air Force and
>their SR71's - the A12's met an early retirement.....

I suppose I'm nit-picking, but the A-12 and the SR-71 is essentially the same 
aircraft.

--
Erik Svensson			Research Officer
Guided Weapons Division		National Defense Research Establishment (FOA)
Stockholm			Sweden

net.address: 	eriks@fenix.lin.foa.se

"I've got LOT's of common sense. I just choose to ignore it." -- Calvin
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk,alt.conspiracy,alt.revisionism
From: jac54@cas.org ()
Subject: Re: Fletcher Prouty's New Zealand Story (JFK)
Organization: Chemical Abstracts Service, Columbus, Ohio
Distribution: world,local
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 14:27:10 GMT

In article <1992Aug17.093243.603@ccsvax.sfasu.edu> f_gautjw@ccsvax.sfasu.edu writes:
>
>       Books by Agee (an ex-CIA agent who now lives in Germany and
>can't even get a US passport anymore after CIA persecution)

	Before using Phillip Agee as a source, you might want to
	ask him about his disciplinary record in the CIA and
	where he his money comes from.

	Alec Chambers
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk,alt.conspiracy
From: lindsay+@cs.cmu.edu (Donald Lindsay)
Subject: Re: Fletcher Prouty's New Zealand Story (JFK)
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 92 17:49:01 GMT
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon



--------------------------------------------------------
PLEASE NOTE: I HAVE REMOVED THE SCI.SKEPTIC CROSSPOSTING. Thank you.
--------------------------------------------------------


dabbott@augean.eleceng.adelaide.edu.AU (Derek Abbott) writes:
>Also electronic typesetting did not exist. Typesetting was done by
>hand and took the whole night to typeset a newspaper.

It took the whole night to typeset a *hundred pages* of newspaper
(give or take a factor of two). So, how long does it take to typeset
one article, that takes up a fraction of a page?

Get a grip.
-- 
Don		D.C.Lindsay 	Carnegie Mellon Computer Science
From: david@cats.ucsc.edu (David Wright)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk
Subject: Re: Clay Shaw is Clay Bertrand, Oswald *was* a Teen Agent
Date: 15 Aug 92 02:05:54 GMT
Organization: University of California; Santa Cruz
NNTP-Posting-Host: si.ucsc.edu


In article <5875@taurus.cs.nps.navy.mil> jxxl@cs.nps.navy.mil (John Locke) writes:
|david@cats.ucsc.edu (David Wright) writes:
|
|| Just in case anyone still had doubts, the report typed up that had Clay
|| Shaw's alias as Clay Bertrand is now published in a book by Jim DeGincini, or
|| something like that. It's called Destiny Betrayed.
|
|The reason the alias on the booking card was thrown out of court was that, in
|accordance with police procedures, the detainee signed the card before any
|of the blanks were filled in. Later, the blanks were filled in from data on
|the arrest sheet. In addition, other people who were witnesses to Shaw's
|signing the card testified that Shaw had never been asked for aliases. This
|is why Officer Habighorst's uncorroborated and contradicted testimony was
|disallowed. Naturally, Garrison fails to confront these details in "On the
|Trail of the Assassins," even to rebut them.

What are you talking about? If it was "in accordance with police procedures",
why was it thrown out? Why did Shaw sign the card if nothing was filled in? 
If the data was filled in with the arrest sheet, then why would you think that
the alias was simply made up? Why was Habighorst nearly blown away when a car
bomb exploded in his car?

|| Jim also found that orders for Oswald's 544 Camp street pamphlets by the CIA
|| from the publishers of those pamplets.
|
|Uh-huh.
|

Uh huh.

|| Note also that a stack was found in
|| Bannister's office by Garrison. This proves that Oswald was working for the
|| CIA.
|
|Garrison never found any pamphlets in Bannister's office. By the time
|Garrison had begun his excursions into paranoid fantasy, Bannister was
|dead (died in 1964). The story of the pamphlets being found in Bannister's
|file cabinet came from Bannister's widow. She also said she destroyed them.
|Another one for the "how convenient" file.

Garrison "found" a witness to the pamplets. Big deal. You know that the WR
*ignored* Bannister's connection. Bannister not only had 
pamplets, but had a whole file on the fair play for cuba comittee, as well as
one for the CIA, and Shaw's International Trade Mart. 

-- 
   |^^^^^^|      _______________________________________________________
   |      |      |"There is nothing in the marginal conditions that    | 
   |      |      | distinguish a mountain from a mole hill"            |
   | (o)(o)      O         Kenneth Boulding                            | 
   @      _)    o|_____________________________________________________|  
    |  ____\ o o
    |     /   
   /     \                              All comments  are mine---(David Wright) 
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk
From: rseguine@buckeye.mitre.org (Roy SeGuine)
Subject: Re: How easy was the rifle shot?
Organization: The MITRE Corporation
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 22:36:08 GMT

Mitchell S Todd  >>>
Bruce Schuck >>

>>>Connally is clearly hit when he involuntarily expells air from his
>>>lungs after being struck in the 5th rib.

>>	Is that involuntary? No one knows. Thompsen uses Shaw as
        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>	a source, but Shaw is really only speculating; doctors 
>>	very rarely get to see film of people being shot. The
>> 	temporary cavity created by a bullet's passage creates
>>	a suction: air from Connelly's lungs would just as likely
>>	be sucked into the cavity as it would be pushed out of
>>	Connelly's mouth. Further, it would take a lot of air
>>	to open Connelly's jaw (it opens when his mouth opens on
>>	"the blow"), but most of the air would exit the Govenor's
>>	nose.

You almost had me going until this one... I almost bought your arguments  
up to here. I guess the Governer Connally just decided to "whistle Dixey"  
at that precise moment. ;-) 
---
Roy SeGuine  NeXT Cyberspace Architech 
*many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased* Dan12:4
From: judson@watnxt2.ucr.edu (Michael Judson)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk
Subject: Keeping a secret
Date: 13 Aug 92 00:40:09 GMT

Many people think that there would be too many people involved in a 
conspiracy against assassinating JFK to be able to keep it a secret.
Well, does anybody remember the break-in at Watergate?  Many people
were involved in that, and if it weren't for two incredibly nosey,
curious, information thriving reporters, there probably would have
been nothing discovered from the break-in and the subsequent relation
of the event to Nixon.  Furthermore, Woodward and Bernstein had the
advantage of questioning living people who may have been involved in
the break-in (not the actually break-in, but events leading to it)
and they were questioning people who were afraid, but certainly none
who lost their lives.
Now, if you killed off some of those people they questioned, and
threaten the others with their lives, the Watergate break-in would
probably still be a mystery.  Sound familiar?  Perhaps there were
many people involved in the Kennedy assassination, but they are
all keeping it a secret.
The point is is that it is not unbelievable that that many people could
keep a conspiracy a secret.  Furthermore, even if many people did tell
the truth, it would be difficult in determing which facts were relevant
and how they tied in to the assassination.  And it would also be
difficult trying to find the right people to question.  This was the
difficulty that Woodward and Bernstein were having: they didn't really
know how everything tied in.


--
I was contemplating Socrates' immortal words: "I drank what?"

judson@watserv.ucr.edu
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
From: jmk@cbnews.cb.att.com (joseph.m.knapp)
Subject: Re: <None>
Organization: AT&T
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 14:00:27 GMT

john@anasazi.com writes:
>I believe that U2 pilots were often CIA employees. I know that U2's
>were used long after '59, and I believe are still used for reconnaisance.

Right... at least Gary Powers was recruited by the CIA (and paid by them).
He describes the recruitment in his book _Operation Overflight; The U-2
Spy Pilot Tells His Story_, Francis Gary Powers, 1970.

---
Joe Knapp    jmk@cbvox.att.com
Xref: sparky alt.conspiracy.jfk:3054 alt.conspiracy:10136 sci.skeptic:14630
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Fletcher Prouty's New Zealand Story (JFK)
From: f_gautjw@ccsvax.sfasu.edu
Date: 19 Aug 92 12:05:33 CST
 <16AUG199221553913@skyblu.ccit.arizona.edu> <1992Aug17.093243.603@ccsvax.sfasu.edu> <1992Aug19.142710.18984@cas.org>
Distribution: world,local
Organization: Stephen F. Austin State University

In article <1992Aug19.142710.18984@cas.org>, jac54@cas.org () writes:
> In article <1992Aug17.093243.603@ccsvax.sfasu.edu> f_gautjw@ccsvax.sfasu.edu writes:
>>
>>       Books by Agee (an ex-CIA agent who now lives in Germany and
>>can't even get a US passport anymore after CIA persecution)
> 
> 	Before using Phillip Agee as a source, you might want to
> 	ask him about his disciplinary record in the CIA and
> 	where he his money comes from.
> 
> 	Alec Chambers

	I would hardly expect a glowing report from the CIA on any
whistle-blowers.  What about Marchetti and McGehee?
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk
From: cortez@milton.u.washington.edu (Tom Warner)
Subject: Re: Teen Agent, Can you Hear Me? Teen Agent, Can You See Me? (was: Clay Shaw is Clay Bertrand, Oswald *was* a Teen Agent
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1992 09:22:24 GMT

In article <schuck.713650970@sfu.ca> Bruce_Schuck@sfu.ca writes:
>jxxl@taurus.cs.nps.navy.mil (John Locke) writes:
>
>It also involves his attempted contact with one of the other
>'defectors' while in the USSR.
>
Hmm.. Where'd you get this?


Xref: sparky alt.conspiracy.jfk:3059 alt.conspiracy:10145 sci.skeptic:14660