HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: Dale McMillen <dmcmillen@igc.apc.org>
Newsgroups: alt.politics.greens
Date: 21 Jan 93 10:25 PST
Subject: COMMUNITY SUPPORTED AGRICULTURE
Nf-ID: #N:cdp:1678600150:000:2642
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!dmcmillen    Jan 21 10:25:00 1993


One of the concerns that have been raised about self-sufficient and
sustainable communities is that it is unreasonable to expect that
everyone would want to spend their days wrestling a plow behind a
mule.

I think this is an over-simplification or a characture of what these
communities might look like.

Related to sustainable communities is another phenomenon called
"Community Supported Agriculture" or "CSA".  The basic idea of
a CSA is that a single or small group of people do the farming
for the rest of the community, and the rest of the community supports
them through either investing in the CSA or with "in kind" services.
I am not aware of a CSA which is also linked to Time Dollars or
LETS, but I am sure that it would be a natural outgrowth.

The most basic type of CSA which appears most like our current
economic system is where an individual makes a yearly investment
in the CSA of around $500.  In return, the farmer of the CSA will
deliver a bag or so of produce every week during the growing season.
The benefit of this system is that the farmer will be able to get
a fair price for his or her produce and the consumer will get freshly grown
wholesome vegetables, at a price competitive with the local supermarket.

More detailed CSAs have the division of farming labor further defined.
In these cases, some folks would do the actual farming, others would
take care of the distribution, others would find outlets for the surpluses
at farmer markets, and others still would regard themselves with the
legal and financial arrangements of the operation.  These would obviously
be larger, but the goal of a community based and supported agriculture and
the promoting the local economy which evolves from it would still be achieved.

CSAs do not need to be associated with any official "intentional
community", and can often simply take on the appearance of a neighborhood
buying club.

However, intentional communities also use CSAs as a way to efficiently
and locally produce some of their own food.  This division of labor allows
those who are interested in "wrestling with a mule" their opportunity while
others can pursue their interests, including child care, education,
carpentry, writing, or even computer programming.  Sometimes these communities
produce goods or services within the community to sell to on the outside, and
others simply emphasize the social and community nature of an intentional
community.  The members of this second type of community generally require
some employment on the outside, however, some have chosen to live such simple
lives that this external employment is not very necessary.

Dale

Newsgroups: alt.politics.greens
From: pauld@cs.washington.edu (Paul Barton-Davis)
Subject: Re: Communitarian vs Urban (was Re: LAW SUITS, REMEDIES AND TOXICS)
Organization: Precipitating Pendulums Postal Party Poopers
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 93 01:07:06 GMT

In article <1jn8gpINNd2h@darkstar.UCSC.EDU> spencer@cats.ucsc.edu (Michael Spencer) writes:
>pauld@cs.washington.edu (Paul Barton-Davis) writes:
>>the suggestion ... is that certain aspects of previous human
>>social arrangements, when coupled with new features, may prove more
>>successful than anything we have now.
>
>Sure and I might win the state lottery.. But both are an
>odds-against bet.

Can you really be so categorical ? One can know, for lots of reasons,
that the state lottery is an odds-against bet. One really can't have
any idea on the other issue. I would suggest a more agnostic attitude.

>>Mr. Spencer appears to believe that these [green] issues *can* 
>>be addressed in
>>such an economy. In the UK at least, The Ecology Party was formed
>>precisely because a group of people did not believe this to be true.
>
>Don't know about UK, but in US there has substantial improvement
>in air quality, water quality, and toxic emissions over the
>past 15 years. So I would say: yes it can be done under the
>present sytem.

You consider this a proof ! Changes like this need to be averaged
across the country as a whole: vastly better air in Chicago has to be
offset against much worse air in Seattle and Portland. I believe that
for most of the categories you've cited, the overall movement is down,
not up.  Even if this were not the case, evidence of the capacity for
some change is hardly evidence of the capacity for sufficient change.

In an upcoming post, I'll try to suggest that in fact, we're all on a
dead-end street, and that no human existence that even vaguely
resembles our own could ever be "sustainable". Devils-Advocate, of
course :-)

-- 
hybrid rather than pure; compromising rather than clean;    | Militant Agnostic
distorted rather than straightforward; ambiguous rather than| I Don't Know
articulated; both-and rather than either-or; the difficult  |   and You Don't
unity of inclusion rather than the easy unity of exclusion. |   Know Either
From: Dale McMillen <dmcmillen@igc.apc.org>
Newsgroups: alt.politics.greens
Date: 20 Jan 93 07:03 PST
Subject: BOTTLE BILL
Nf-ID: #N:cdp:1678600145:000:423
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!dmcmillen    Jan 20 07:03:00 1993


>>+ We should legislate deposits on glass, metal and plastic 
>>beverage containers. 
>
>The verdict is out on the effectiveness of this, although intuitively,
>it seems like a great idea.
 
Paul,
 
You made this comment about this plank in the  Ca. Green Party Plotform.
Would you mind explaining?
 
Dale
 
PS Be warned, I have spent the bulk of my activist energy this last year
   promoting the Bottle Bill in Virginia.
From: dean@vexcel.com (Dean Alaska)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.greens
Subject: Perception of Greens as IDIOTS
Date: 22 Jan 93 18:40:23 GMT
Organization: VEXCEL Corporation, Boulder CO

In article <1jnm4cINNheo@darkstar.UCSC.EDU> aphrael@cats.ucsc.edu (Robert D West) writes:
>
>In article <1jnie9INNk80@gap.caltech.edu> () writes:
>>YOUR ALL A BUNCH OF TREELUVERS WHO CARE MORE ABOUT ANIMULS THAN PEOPLE.
>>WHY DONT YOU ALL GO LIVE OUT IN NATURE AND LET THE REST OF US TAKE CARE
>>OF BIZNESS.
>
>	As ridiculous as this post is - particularly since it has no
>	origin and is obviously an attempt to stir up angry responses - 
>	it nevertheless makes an interesting point.
>
>	There are a lot of people who view the Green Party just this
>	way. The common perception, at first, among people whom I talk
>	to about the party is that we are all a bunch of environmental
>	extremists out to destroy mankind in order to save a snail
>	darter.
>
>	If we are to be effective as a party, or even as an advocacy group,`		we have to work on ways to convince people that this stereotype
>	is not reflective of reality.
>
>	Any ideas?

We're working on it here.  Community activists are working on it.  It is
a problem, but considering the percentages Green candicates got in their
first election round, I think we are making progress.

>-- 
>"I don't know a soul who's not been battered	|	The American Dream?
>I don't have a friend who feels at ease		|	The California Dream?
>I don't know a dream that's not been shattered	|  In 1993, dreams these aren't.
>Or driven to its knees.				|  Rather, they're nightmares.
>But it's all right, it's all right"		|______________________________
>	---Paul Simon, "American Tune" (1973)	|	aphrael@cats.ucsc.edu
>________________________________________________|  1991-1995; Politics/History


-- 
==============================================================================
	Dean Myerson     (aka dingo in boulder)     dean@vexcel.com
==============================================================================
Newsgroups: alt.politics.greens
From: pauld@cs.washington.edu (Paul Barton-Davis)
Subject: Re: BOTTLE BILL
Organization: Precipitating Pendulums Postal Party Poopers
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 93 17:29:39 GMT

In article <1678600155@igc.apc.org> Dale McMillen <dmcmillen@igc.apc.org> writes:
>
>>The studies I have heard of (see Garbage for a good overview) tend to
>>suggest that the return rate increase per unit cost of the program is
>>lower for bottle deposits than for, say, kerbside recycling.
>
>Paul,
>
>I am not following you.  I thought you were saying that you don't think
>Bottle Bills are a good thing, but this seems to say that you do --
>or at least is less expensive than curbside recycling.  What is your
>position?

			Return rate/per unit program cost	

Deposit scheme				X
Kerbside recyling			X+Y

Thus, deposit schemes are, according to the summaries I have read, a
more expensive way to retrieve bottles than kerbside recyling,
although I should note that one fetches back bottles, the other tends
to collect glass.

-- paul
-- 
hybrid rather than pure; compromising rather than clean;    | Militant Agnostic
distorted rather than straightforward; ambiguous rather than| I Don't Know
articulated; both-and rather than either-or; the difficult  |   and You Don't
unity of inclusion rather than the easy unity of exclusion. |   Know Either
From: cls@truffula.sj.ca.us (Cameron L. Spitzer)
Subject: Re: Environmental Defense Fund
Organization: Save the Humans!
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 93 07:50:08 GMT
Followup-To: alt.save.the.earth
Summary: address and phone

In article <1jkaotINN2n5@hpsdlss3.sdd.hp.com> mattb@sdd.hp.com (Matt Bonner) writes:
>[What] about the environmental defense fund?

EDF was organized on Long Island to fight DDT.  They proved in court the
toxin was driving the Osprey to extinction.
Their efforts concentrate on industrial regulation, energy policy, toxics.
Most of the staff are scientists, lawyers, or economists.
They're recently famous for cajoling McDonalds into a waste reduction
program.  As predicted it was copied to various degrees across the
industry.  The hard part was dispelling the cloud of "greenwash" put out
by the polystyrene box people with their phony "pilot recycling"
projects.  On the Realo-Fundi spectrum, EDF's way Realo.

>do they seek donations, etc.  

In spades.  You'll get mail 8 or 10 times a year.  The newsletter's
interesting, and comes on a 65% postconsumer "recycled" stock.

>If anyone could help out ... providing a contact, I'd appreciate it.

Address mail to Fred Krupp, Executive Director
EDF, 257 Park Ave South, New York, NY 10010 (212)505-2100
membership 212-505-2383

>Matt Bonner                  |  Email: mattb@sdd.hp.com

Cameron
cls@truffula.sj.ca.us
From: ()
Newsgroups: alt.politics.greens
Subject: IDIOTS
Followup-To: alt.politics.greens
Date: 22 Jan 1993 01:25:29 GMT
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: macintosh17.cco.caltech.edu

YOUR ALL A BUNCH OF TREELUVERS WHO CARE MORE ABOUT ANIMULS THAN PEOPLE.
WHY DONT YOU ALL GO LIVE OUT IN NATURE AND LET THE REST OF US TAKE CARE
OF BIZNESS.

-PC
From: spencer@cats.ucsc.edu (Michael Spencer)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.greens
Subject: Re: THE MONEY SUPPLY AND CURRENCIES
Date: 27 Jan 1993 18:43:57 GMT
Organization: University of California, Santa Cruz
NNTP-Posting-Host: si.ucsc.edu


starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Tim Starr) writes:

>}... Admittedly most hyper-
>}inflations result from failure not lack but two notable ones that
>}occcurred in what you refer to as a free banking system were:
>}	- American continentals at end of Revolution
>}	- Confederate money at end of Civil War
>}The Chinese also had at least one epsiode, but Im afraid the 
>}specific reference escapes me.

>I've never said that either of the hyperinflation episodes you cite occurred
>under free banking.  The Continentals were legal tender.  Free banknotes
>aren't.  The same goes for the Confederate money.  These were both State
>banking failures, not market failures.  Shall I look up the Chinese episode?

I suggest rather that you look up the two American incidents cited.
In neither case were the hyper-inflated currencies "legal tender"
within the meaning of the phrase (see Black's Law Dictionnary).


===========================================================================
Michael Spencer            |      2640 Borregas
spencer@cats.ucsc.edu      |      Aptos, CA   95003
===========================================================================


-- 

===========================================================================
Michael Spencer            |      2640 Borregas
spencer@cats.ucsc.edu      |      Aptos, CA   95003
===========================================================================
From: bjd@boi.hp.com (Bob Davidson)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.greens
Subject: Re: LET'S DISCUSS NUCLEAR ENERGY! -- Elsewhere!!!
Date: 27 Jan 93 01:29:50 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard / Boise, Idaho
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1.4 PL6]

Jym Dyer (jym@mica.berkeley.edu) wrote:
: > I believe that nuclear power can be an environmentally
: > friendly power source.
: 
: =o= So we've heard.  But debate on that particular matter
: belongs in talk.environment and/or sci.energy, not here.

Why not?  Besides you, John J. Ladasky II, and Dale McMillen, there's 
nobody here.  Get a job.
From: starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Tim Starr)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.greens
Subject: Re: THE MONEY SUPPLY AND CURRENCIES
Date: 27 Jan 93 08:48:55 GMT
Organization: UDel, School of Life & Health Sciences

In article <1k1fsgINN9ls@darkstar.UCSC.EDU> spencer@cats.ucsc.edu (Michael Spencer) writes:
}
}starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Tim Starr) writes:
}
}>In article <1jkaaoINNfep@darkstar.UCSC.EDU> spencer@cats.ucsc.edu (Michael Spencer) writes:
}>}
}>}As originally stated: Hyper-inflation is caused by a failure/lack of
}>}the central banking system. The extent of the region over which the
}>}currency is negotiated is not relevant.
}
}>Mr. Spencer, I've rebutted your false claims about central banking before,
}>and you seem to have ignored them.  I've read the world history of free
}>banking, and there has never been a hyperinflation in any area with it
}>that I know of.  Is your claim merely theoretical, or have I missed a
}>case?
}
}Please note that what I said was .."failure/lack of the central banking 
}system." which covers two (2) cases not one. Admittedly most hyper-
}inflations result from failure not lack but two notable ones that
}occcurred in what you refer to as a free banking system were:
}	- American continentals at end of Revolution
}	- Confederate money at end of Civil War
}The Chinese also had at least one epsiode, but Im afraid the 
}specific reference escapes me.

I've never said that either of the hyperinflation episodes you cite occurred
under free banking.  The Continentals were legal tender.  Free banknotes
aren't.  The same goes for the Confederate money.  These were both State
banking failures, not market failures.  Shall I look up the Chinese episode?

Tim Starr - Renaissance Now! - Think Universally, Act Selfishly
starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu

"True greatness consists in the use of a powerful understanding to enlighten
oneself and others." - Francois Marie Arouet Voltaire
Newsgroups: alt.politics.greens,ba.transportation,sci.environment
From: jyc@leo.Stanford.EDU (Jon Corelis)
Subject: Re: Gas Tax?
Organization: DSO, Stanford University
Date: 22 Jan 93 23:56:56 GMT

jmc@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (John McCarthy) writes:

>In article <jyc.727737475@Leland> jyc@leo.Stanford.EDU (Jon Corelis) writes:
>I don't consider any of the above a good reason, especially after
>having recently spent time in a snowstorm with a (justifiably)
>impatient child waiting for a bus.  It was a very good bus system,
>and the bus was only 15 minutes late.

   The "above" -- that is, the material I posted about gas taxes in
Western European countries, weren't adduced as "reasons" for anything.
The quoted material was posted as evidence that in most other countries
of the developed world gas is taxed at the pump at the rate of several
dollars a gallon to subsidize valued government programs and to
encourage public transit, and that this has had none of the dire
economic, political, or practical consequences which opponents of such a
tax in the U.S. predict would inevitably follow from it.  If you happen
across any articles about British or French parents demanding the
repeal of such taxes because their children are being forced to endure
frostbite while waiting for buses, please post them.
From: Genevieve Grafe Marcus -- Ph.D. <gmarcus@igc.apc.org>
Newsgroups: alt.politics.greens
Date: 20 Jan 93 20:57 PST
Subject: Re: UK GREENS CONDEMN IRAQ BOMBING
Nf-ID: #R:cdp:1678600104:cdp:1678600147:000:134
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!gmarcus    Jan 20 20:57:00 1993


Which brings up the question, how did the UK Greens come up with their
quick press release condemning the bombing of Iraq?

Genevieve

Newsgroups: alt.politics.greens,ba.transportation,sci.environment
From: lip@s1.gov (Loren I. Petrich)
Subject: Re: Gas Tax?
Organization: LLNL
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 01:42:16 GMT

In article <JMC.93Jan22151712@SAIL.Stanford.EDU> jmc@cs.Stanford.EDU writes:
>In article <jyc.727737475@Leland> jyc@leo.Stanford.EDU (Jon Corelis) writes:

	[Reasons for gas taxes...]

>I don't consider any of the above a good reason, especially after
>having recently spent time in a snowstorm with a (justifiably)
>impatient child waiting for a bus.  It was a very good bus system,
>and the bus was only 15 minutes late.

	And is driving through a snowstorm much of an improvement?

	And have any of you people ever driven through one? If you
didn't try to avoid doing so no matter what.
-- 
/Loren Petrich, the Master Blaster
/lip@s1.gov
Newsgroups: alt.politics.greens
From: cls@truffula.sj.ca.us (Cameron L. Spitzer)
Subject: Re: BEING CO-OPTED
Organization: Save the Humans!
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 93 19:49:17 GMT

In article <1678600159@igc.apc.org> Dale McMillen <dmcmillen@igc.apc.org>
 writes:
>[W]hat experiences [have other folks] had in being "co-opted"[?]
>     I think the basic definition is when another individual or
>   organization takes over your issue and claims it for their own.

I'd broaden this definition to explicitly include language itself.
For example, the word "recycle" has been co-opted, especially with
respect to paper and plastics.  The term suggests to consumers a
closed loop system, but actually means much less.  The effect is
to satisfy consumer demand for closed loop recycling, without the
cost and inconvenience of actual implementation.  Consumer demand
for true reform is pre-empted, and true reform is delayed
indefinitely.

Cameron
From: spencer@cats.ucsc.edu (Michael Spencer)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.greens
Subject: Re: THE MONEY SUPPLY AND CURRENCIES
Date: 28 Jan 1993 18:36:09 GMT
Organization: University of California, Santa Cruz
NNTP-Posting-Host: am.ucsc.edu


dean@vexcel.com (Dean Alaska) writes:

>>Don't waste time saying Hitler & Mussolini weren't socialists.
>>	Nazi is short for National Socialist. Mussolini started his
>>	political career as the editor of a socialist newspaper.
>>	They both politically hijacked socialist movements -
>>	but socialist movements have proven highly susceptible 
>>	to such hijacking - which is exactly my point.

>You're welcome to your opinion on this - and I have been over it
>before - but it is not generally accepted.  

I am sure that socialists do not "generally accept" the historical
facts about Hitler & Mussolini cited in the >> lines above - but 
that does not make them less historically correct.

>One of the defining
>features of fascism is scapegoating.  That a fascist scapegoats
>the same people that socialists blame does not make the fascist
>a socialist.

Ah the semantic wonders of the true believer!
	"scapegoating" is what fascists do.
	"blame" is what socialists do.

I think I had better kill this thread. It seems to have run
from the real world of money into the lal-la land of socialist
semantics.

-- 

===========================================================================
Michael Spencer            |      2640 Borregas
spencer@cats.ucsc.edu      |      Aptos, CA   95003
===========================================================================
From: Dale McMillen <dmcmillen@igc.apc.org>
Newsgroups: alt.politics.greens
Date: 23 Jan 93 10:53 PST
Subject: Re: Outer space resources, was Re: save
Nf-ID: #R:1993Jan21.070815.10518@truffula.:184677980:cdp:1678600161:000:1183
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!dmcmillen    Jan 23 10:53:00 1993


> My basic view is that the Greens should do what I think the 
> government should do with regards to space: get out of the way, please.
>
> Patrick Chester
 
This is my view, too.  But let's be fair and remember that *ALL* space
activity up to 1974 was the sole activity of the government.  (The private/
public partnership of COMSAT aside.)  Even today, the bulk of space activity
is government sponsored: spy satellites, star wars, weather satellites,
Space stations and shuttles, ICMB Nukes, Patriot rockets, and so on.
 
In my opinion the cost of the space program, especially the government
sponsored space program, has been a net loss to society.  I am well aware
of the technological and medical advances and the spiritual insights
derived from photos from space.  I wouldn't want to give those up, but
when we suggest that the government should get out of the way, we need
to remember that the very large bulk of space activity has been government
sponsored.  Private corporations would very likely have never entered
space without the initial public funding and research which were public
dollars that could have gone to other more immediate problems here on earth.
 
Dale

Newsgroups: alt.politics.greens
From: jek@Xenon.Stanford.EDU (James E. Kittock)
Subject: Re: LET'S DISCUSS NUCLEAR ENERGY! -- Elsewhere!!!
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University.
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 20:05:26 GMT

In article <C1Ho5q.FKK@boi.hp.com> bjd@boi.hp.com (Bob Davidson) writes:
>Jym Dyer (jym@mica.berkeley.edu) wrote:
>: > I believe that nuclear power can be an environmentally
>: > friendly power source.

yah, and Russian roulette can be a safe game to play.

>: 
>: =o= So we've heard.  But debate on that particular matter
>: belongs in talk.environment and/or sci.energy, not here.
>
>Why not?  Besides you, John J. Ladasky II, and Dale McMillen, there's 
>nobody here.  Get a job.

Wrong, me too.  Just watching, mostly.

I don't want a job.

-- 
 james kittock :: stanford cs grad student :: duke '92 :: go blue devils!!
 "Adaptation is a recursive process in living systems." -- Alex. M. Andrew
From: dean@vexcel.com (Dean Alaska)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.greens
Subject: Re: PROBLEMS WITH CURRENT SYSTEM
Date: 25 Jan 93 19:14:30 GMT
Organization: VEXCEL Corporation, Boulder CO

In article <1993Jan25.005839.6465@CSD-NewsHost.Stanford.EDU> jek@Xenon.Stanford.EDU (James E. Kittock) writes:
>In article <1678600158@igc.apc.org> Dale McMillen <dmcmillen@igc.apc.org> writes:
>>
>>In the midst of fending off criticisms about Green ideas for sustainable
>>communities, I thought it would be interesting to see what people think
>>is wrong with the current "system".  
>
>>So, what do we think is wrong with the current
>>"system"?
>
>Well, in my most cynical moments, I suspect that what
>is wrong with the "system" is us, Homo sapiens.
>
[cynical discussion deleted]
>
>Anyhow, I am not optimistic about ANYTHING.
>
[...]
>
>Sadly, it seems to be against our nature as a species
>to these things, so there you go, we lose.

There is a lot of this type of cynicism around these days, especially
among some deep ecologists.  Many of them see their actions as just
trying to save _something_ for after the inevitable collapse.  History
would support James beliefs that carrying capacity always _eventually_
get passed with the unavoidale collapse afterwards.  Nevertheless,
significant changes have occurred in human perceptions and ethics.
Its up to the rest of us to try and prove James wrong.
>
>-- 
> james kittock :: stanford cs grad student :: duke '92 :: go blue devils!!
> "Adaptation is a recursive process in living systems." -- Alex. M. Andrew


-- 
==============================================================================
	Dean Myerson     (aka dingo in boulder)     dean@vexcel.com
==============================================================================
Newsgroups: alt.politics.greens