HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: rsmith@strobe.ATC.Olivetti.Com (Russ Smith)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.college
Subject: Re: BAD News for Arkansas and UMass fans
Date: 23 Jul 92 20:21:43 GMT
Organization: Olivetti ATC; Cupertino CA, USA

In article <1992Jul23.160906.19470@cci632.cci.com> dxj@cci632.cci.com (Dennis Joyce) writes:

>I believe that the SAT is somewhat bias against minorities and poor folk. That
>is why the ACT was developed. Now I can't see how anyone can argue that the 
>700 mark is too high or that having that mark is bad for the students (they
>are students, remember?).

The SAT is socially biased not racially biased. When I took Stats in JUCO
one of the studies we used to learn about statistics was a study on SAT scores
and their predictive value. The study fairly clearly showed blacks and 
hispanics scored lower on average than whites. A further look by the author
of the study discovered that in poor schools, the scores were lower in all
racial groups, while in rich schools they were higher in all racial groups.
The type of educational opportunities you get are the biggest factor, not
the race.

A girl I went to highschool with took the SAT with a C average in a fairly
middle class school(ie. not poor or rich) and got a 1300. She started getting
letters from prestigious academic school although she wasn't a great student.
She took the SAT twice more and schore between 900 and 950 both times. 
According to the study I saw and the standard deviation on the test(which
I no longer recall) the chances of her scoring a 1300 were astronomical.
The chances are just as astromical of a good student scoring way too low
on the test. Most kids that fail to get 700 do so several times. Rumeal
Robinson had dyslexia whiCH was why he scored well below what he should
have based on his actual college performance. When you consider that merely
filling in all the bubbles on both halves of the test is worth 400 points,
getting 300 out of the remaining 1200 ought to be easy. Pearl Washington
got a 470! My stats prof taught us that theoretically by simply filling
in the bubbles randomly, you should be able to get better than a 470(
(assuming you got the first 400 on the bubbles at the beginning), so
Pearl's score was incredibly low, but he was a very poor student from
a poor background.

The SAT is not a great predictor of academic success in college, but
when I hear people like John Thompson or John Chaney complain that
700 is too high and racially biased I can't understand it. 




Russ Smith
*******************************************************************************
"I want a world where I can eat a sea otter without getting sick!"

Leslie Nielsen in the Naked Gun 2 1/2
******************************************************************************





Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.college
From: rbutera@is.rice.edu (Rob Butera)
Subject: Re: Prop 48...
Organization: Rice University
Distribution: na
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1992 08:47:29 GMT

In article <1992Jul25.055019.18628@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu>, u_nique@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Jerray Wei) writes:
|> In article <19556@optima.cs.arizona.edu> gln@cs.arizona.edu (Gary L. Newell) writes:
|> >
|> > Yeah - its all just hogwash right? No such thing as cultural bias right Jerray?
|> >Nah.... everyone is the same and all tests are the same.... But I'm sure you
|> >know something that the folks who study testing bias don't know. 
|> >
|> Fuck you.

    (Hmm.  Is this proper English?)

|> advantages and disadvantages exist everywhere.  Fact remains that in this

    (Hmm. Fact remains.  Lacking something here.  How about "THE fact remains...")

|> country you need to have the type of skills that these exams test you on.

   (The exam tests you on skills.  "type" is redundant, and therefore not proper)

|> Math isn't exactly biased...and English, I'm sure is, but it's proper English.
                                                         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

  I DARE YOU TO DEFINE PROPER ENGLISH.  Go to any professor of Linguistics at
  your nearest college or university, and ask him/her to define proper English.
  You will be promptly laughed at.  The concept of "proper english" is itself
  a cultural bias.  People in this country can't agree on it, nevermind traveling
  from county to county in England.  Take a linguistics course or two ...

|> If you're going to write anything that people want...that's what they want
|> it in.

-- 
Rob Butera - ECE grad student   Rice University, Houston, TX   rbutera@rice.edu

Posing nude in _Playboy_ was "probably the best time of my life - except for
when I found God." - Jessica Hahn
From: piz@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (G G ZIPFEL)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.college
Subject: Re: BAD News for Arkansas and UMass fans
Date: 24 Jul 92 20:22:40 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: AT&T

In article <XJAM.92Jul23233147@cork.CS.Berkeley.EDU> xjam@cork.CS.Berkeley.EDU (The Crossjammer) writes:
>>>>>> "Russ" == Russ Smith <rsmith@strobe.ATC.Olivetti.Com> writes:
>
>   Russ>  xjam@cork.CS.Berkeley.EDU (The Crossjammer) writes:
>>  Russ> when I hear people like John Thompson or John Chaney complain that
>>  Russ> 700 is too high and racially biased I can't understand it. 
>>
>>I'd like to see a quote where either of these guys complained that 700 was
>>too high.  I'll agree that both are probably in the "the SAT is biased, why
>>use it" camp, but I'm going to call you on this particular point.
>
>  Russ> If its an exact quote then I'll fail the challenge cause I don't have
>  Russ> one, but both men are on record as saying that using SAT and ACT test
>  Russ> scores as Prop 48 does is wrong because the tests are racially biased.
>  Russ> They justify this by saying that blacks score lower than whites(in
>
>Scratch, scratch....hmmmm. I don't quite see the logic in the last
>sentence. Why is it not possible that some coaches are saying that the test
>is biased, don't use it! This would imply, to me at least, that they feel
>that *any* minimum is too high since it's a pointless test. Lower it to
>200, I bet they would still say it's a useless test.

	From my limited experience, and from what I've read, these scores 
	corelate very well with college grades, and are valuable predictors.
	While the fact that they are biased against students from poor
	high schools, the college system is biased in this same way, making
	the tests somewhat valid.

	Yes, there are many notable exceptions of kids coming from the
	inner city, and making the grades in college, but the vast majority
	of high scoring SAT takers do well in college, and the vast majority
	of low scorers do poorly.

	From the point of view of the college entrance board, the ACT and
	SAT (along with class rank) are very valuable tools, and will
	not be removed in the near future.
	
	[editors note: I was called in to see a dean before I was admitted
	to school because there was such a discrepency between my class
	rank and my ACT scores. I would guess that this happens at all
	schools, they want to make sure that you didn't cheat on the test,
	or cheat your way through high school.]
-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
          Zip                  |   Owner/GM West Chicago Zippers,           
Steelers in 92, Bubby's Back!  |   Obviously the funniest team in the IBL.   
"Anything that travels that far oughta have a damn stewardess on it"
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.college
From: atchison@bagpipe.cis.ohio-state.edu (Mark Atchison)
Subject: Re: Big 11 Recruits - 1992
Organization: The Ohio State University, Department of Computer and Information Science
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 16:26:02 GMT

In article <1992Jul27.144157.18517@crd.ge.com> doel@crd.ge.com writes:
>In article <1992Jul27.124150.8006@dg-rtp.dg.com>, foerster@zman.rtp.dg.com (Mike Von Foerster) writes:
>
>> This is how the Big Ten recruits shape up for this year. This ranking
>> was produced by FutureStars Magazine. Included in this list are 
>> returning red-shirts and Prop 48 casualties, however, they do not
>> impact the rankings. 
>> 
>> I only know of one change to the rankings. Steve Hart was
>> listed as going to IU but he is headed to prep school this
>> fall instead. 
>> 
>> 1. Ohio State         Gerald Eaker      6'11"  Westchester, IL
>>                       Nate Wilbourne    6'10"  Columbus, OH
>>                       Charles Macon     6'7"   Michigan City, IN 
>>                       Derek Anderson    6'5"   Louisville, KY
>>                       Grep Simpson      6'2"   Lima, OH
>> 
>
>I noticed the list also included redshirt/prop48's so this list is a bit
>incomplete for OSU.  Add:
>
>                        Antonio Watson    ?'?"   PROP 48 (from Columbus)
					   ^^^^^
					   6'10"
>                        Joe Reid          6'7"   REDSHIRT (from Cleveland)
>                        Otis Winston      6'5"   Toronto, OH  (Walkon)
>
>-- 
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>Mike Doel				<doel@crd.ge.com>
>P.O. Box 8
>Schenectady, NY 12301			(518) 387-6203
>
>"For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat
> and wrong." - H.L. Mencken
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


-- 
_______________________________________________________________________________
            Mark Atchison, a.k.a. <atchison@cis.ohio-state.edu>
Computer Science Dept, THE Ohio State University (NOT an Ohio State University)
		The plagiarisms seen above are not my own...
From: trradrx@canctr.mc.duke.edu (R.CLOUGH)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.college
Subject: Re: Nike Academic All-Stars Game
Date: 31 Jul 92 18:35:39 GMT
Reply-To: trradrx@canctr.mc.duke.edu
Organization: Duke U. Med. Ctr., Durham, NC

In article <64779@hydra.gatech.EDU>, jb118@prism.gatech.EDU (Jeffrey N. Burch) writes:
>>I've ever seen.  Stackhouse had a Dr. J like, full court running,
>>take off from the foul line jam.  
>Nope, no way could I jam the ball after taking off from the foul line.
>Not even with a full court running start.  No way, absolutely not.
>Oh, I suppose you were talking about the other Dr. J.  Sorry...

Don't sell yourself so short!  

>By the way, thanks for the article - I meant to tape the game but
>forgot about it.  No indication, I suppose, from any of the players
>about where they're thinking about going to school?

No, not really.  The announcers discussed the choices during the game, but
there were only a couple of player interviews.  The announcing in this game
was somewhere beyond lame.  George McGinnis was the analyst, but didn't have
much of interest to say.  And the courtside reporter's attempts at humor
were embarassing.  Duke seems to have the ear of about a quarter of the 
players; Kentucky, Kansas, UNC and Georgetown seem to be in on most of them
as well.  Kentucky is apparently working very hard on Dontonio Wingfield, 
said to be the next Jamal Mashburn.
   And Jerry Stackhouse really needs to work on his interviewing cliches.  
He said he gave 100%, not 110%.  But the best thing was his answer to the
question of how do you feel being compared to Michael Jordan?  Stackhouse:
"I take it as a compliment." !


Robert Clough, DUMC (though certainly not speaking for them)
	"I wanna be a black girl."--6 year old Theodora Richards, when asked
if she enjoyed her father Keith's performance that night.
From: trradrx@canctr.mc.duke.edu (R.CLOUGH)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.college
Subject: Re: A Look Ahead at the ACC: Georgia Tech
Date: 21 Jul 92 12:41:26 GMT
Reply-To: trradrx@canctr.mc.duke.edu
Organization: Duke U. Med. Ctr., Durham, NC

In article <BrpL4C.DHM@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, jdt29225@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Jazzy J ) writes:
>Trivia Question :  Ga Tech all-time assist leader?
>	My answer would have to be Craig "Noodles" Neal.  I believe he set
>	some sort of ACC record for assists in his senior season.

Ladies and gentlemen, we have a winner!  He is ahead of Mark Price, Kenny
Anderson, Brian Oliver, Bruce Dalrymple, etc.

Robert Clough, DUMC
	DUKE FOOTBALL '92: "The horror, the horror!"
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.college
From: alan@tsd.arlut.utexas.edu (Alan Martin)
Subject: Re: Prop 48...
Keywords: Flag, country, ashokan fiddle music, etc. redundancy, repetition
Organization: Applied Research Labs, University of Texas at Austin
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 14:45:30 GMT

fehr@ms.uky.edu (Jeff Davis) writes:

>So, since the schools can't be trusted, the student should be punished?
>There are admissions policies at every school. Every school, apparently,
>has a profile of the kind of kid it wants to educate and programs in
>place to attract these kinds of kids. Why not substitute for Prop 48
>a rule which would prohibit a school from accepting a kid from outside
>its "target" base. If it has programs in place to educate "high risk"
>students who aren't athletes, fine. It would be permitted to accept
>high risk students who were athletes. It would be up to the NCAA member
>institution to show compliance under some arbitrary cut-off point. A  
>school wouldn't be able to fill ALL of its "high risk" slots with athletes.
>The program would have to monitor and encourage ALL of the students
>in the program.  It isn't too hard to imagine a set of constraints
>that would promote some kind of fairness. As an added attraction,
>it would Share the Wealth: non-athletes from bum educational backgrounds
>could conceivably coat-tail their way into schools.

>                                                Some schools -- someone
>mentioned Idaho -- accept all high school graduates from their
>state. Fine and dandy. Under my "plan" the school would be able to 
>accept any athlete from Idaho high schools who graduated. Idaho
>has already accepted its mission to educate all comers. Why should the
>NCAA care? I object to Prop 48 because it misplaces the burden.

Exactly.

It's been my complaint for quite awhile that prestigious universities
don't give a hoot about underprivileged students unless they have a nice
jump shot (or whatever).  The NCAA could go a long way towards promoting
fairness in admissions policies by instituting a plan such as this.
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.college
From: u_nique@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Jerray Wei)
Subject: Re: Prop 48...
Organization: HAC - Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1992 05:50:19 GMT

In article <19556@optima.cs.arizona.edu> gln@cs.arizona.edu (Gary L. Newell) writes:
>
> Yeah - its all just hogwash right? No such thing as cultural bias right Jerray?
>Nah.... everyone is the same and all tests are the same.... But I'm sure you
>know something that the folks who study testing bias don't know. 
>
Fuck you.

Always have to have an attitude don't you...and it bugs me because I don't
really think you understand what I have to say anyway.  I never said there
was no cultural bias.  Anything can lead to that.  Certainly well to do
people have a much better shot at the test than inner city folks, but cultural
advantages and disadvantages exist everywhere.  Fact remains that in this
country you need to have the type of skills that these exams test you on.
Math isn't exactly biased...and English, I'm sure is, but it's proper English.
If you're going to write anything that people want...that's what they want
it in.

So are people from certain backgrounds going to have disadvantages?  Yes, but
employees aren't going to take cultural disadvantage too seriously.
>
From: gln@cs.arizona.edu (Gary L. Newell)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.college
Subject: Arizona 92-93 schedule (also ASU stuff)
Date: 21 Jul 92 23:23:08 GMT
Organization: U of Arizona CS Dept, Tucson



 Arizona announced its 92-93 scgedule today. I'll post the entire thing in a few
days if nobody beats me to it but I thought I'd give the highlights now for
those who are interested. Arizona opens with their usual two exhibitions and
then open the regular season with 3 home games against Arkansas (Dec 6), New
Mexico (Dec 8), and Utah (Dec 12). The cats then go to Providence on Dec 22.
The Fiesta Bowl classic (Dec 28-30) will have Delaware St, LaSalle, and West
Virginia (Az plays Delaware in the openning round). Arizona plays Rhode
Island on January 2 here in Tucson. Then the Pac-10 season opens play at
UCLA Jan 7th.  The cats do play at New Orleans Jan 23 and the final non-
conference game will be against last year's surprise team Cincinnati at the 
7-up shoot-out in Phoenix.

 Arizona has 3 games scheduled for ABC (I have no idea if these are regional 
telecasts or not) Home against Cal Feb 7th, the Cinci game Feb 21, and at
Stanford March 7th. They will be on ESPN at UCLA, at home against Utah,
at home against ASU Feb 18th, and at Cal March 4th. There are also a number
of Raycom games for those of you on the west coast but I'll leave them off for
now.

 All in all a reasonable looking schedule, but not as strong as I'd have liked.

 I have yet to see any mention of Faulkner's troubles at ASU. As you might 
remember, he was given probation and community service in exchange for a
guilty plea to charges last year. Well, it seems that Bill Freider informed
the court that Faulkner had not performed any of the community service and
thus had violated his probation. I doubt he'll be back with ol Bill this
season..... anyone in ASU-land have more details on this?? 


			gln
From: xjam@cork.CS.Berkeley.EDU (The Crossjammer)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.college
Subject: Re: BAD News for Arkansas and UMass fans
Date: 23 Jul 92 23:31:47
Organization: University of California, Berserkeley
	<XJAM.92Jul23141132@cork.CS.Berkeley.EDU>
	<55407@olivea.atc.olivetti.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: cork.cs.berkeley.edu
In-reply-to: rsmith@strobe.ATC.Olivetti.Com's message of 23 Jul 92 21:28:54 GMT

>>>>> "Russ" == Russ Smith <rsmith@strobe.ATC.Olivetti.Com> writes:

  Russ> In article <XJAM.92Jul23141132@cork.CS.Berkeley.EDU> xjam@cork.CS.Berkeley.EDU (The Crossjammer) writes:
>  Russ> when I hear people like John Thompson or John Chaney complain that
>  Russ> 700 is too high and racially biased I can't understand it. 
>
>I'd like to see a quote where either of these guys complained that 700 was
>too high.  I'll agree that both are probably in the "the SAT is biased, why
>use it" camp, but I'm going to call you on this particular point.

  Russ> If its an exact quote then I'll fail the challenge cause I don't have
  Russ> one, but both men are on record as saying that using SAT and ACT test
  Russ> scores as Prop 48 does is wrong because the tests are racially biased.
  Russ> They justify this by saying that blacks score lower than whites(in
  Russ> fact than any racial group) and therefore using these tests discriminates
  Russ> against blacks. To me this implies that since the most affected group
  Russ> will be blacks, then the 700 minimum is too high. 

Scratch, scratch....hmmmm. I don't quite see the logic in the last
sentence. Why is it not possible that some coaches are saying that the test
is biased, don't use it! This would imply, to me at least, that they feel
that *any* minimum is too high since it's a pointless test. Lower it to
200, I bet they would still say it's a useless test.

My full point is that you tried to stick words in these coaches mouths that
said, "We want a lower minimum for black people." I claim that neither
Thompson nor Chaney has ever said any such thing or anything even close. You
yourself claimed that the test is at least biased against the poor. Would
it not be reasonable for the coaches to come to the same conclusion and
decry the use of a test that's biased against many players, since indeed
many do come from poor backgrounds?

While it might seem to be a small point, inaccuracies and misinformation
such as this tend to have a nasty cumulative effect. Sort of like Pippen
pushing Rodman. 
--
xjam@cork.Berkeley.EDU  	Fiiiive Thousand Boomin Watts...... -The JBeez

They can't come on and play me in prime time, 	    | Free Millipede coin op
Cause I know the time, cause I'm gettin' mine.	    | and House music at my
I get on the mix late in the night... -Public Enemy | place! Drop by sometime.

Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.college
From: foerster@zman.rtp.dg.com (Mike Von Foerster)
Subject: Re: BAD News for Arkansas and UMass fans
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 92 11:56:02 GMT
Reply-To: foerster@dg-rtp.dg.com
Organization: Data General Corp., Research Triangle Park, NC

In article <1992Jul22.225043.1687@athena.cs.uga.edu>, milleman@athena.cs.uga.edu (Richard Milleman) writes:
|> In article <92204.073715KRB104@psuvm.psu.edu> KRB104@psuvm.psu.edu writes:
|> >
|> >   Both of the Baltimore Dunbar High School superstars failed to score 700
|> >on the SAT's and will not be eligible to play next season.  Michael Lloyd,
|> >formerly headed for Arkansas, will probably enroll at San Jacinto Junior
|> >college in Texas.  Who knows if he will ever make it to Arkansas.  Donta
|> >Bright will be heading to UMass and will sit out this season.  He said that
|> >he made his decision and will live with the consequences.
|> 
|> 
|> 
|> Maybe it's just me, but isn't UMass a good school?Could anybody who couldn't get
|> a 700 on the SAT actually make it (academically) at a school of UMass's quality
|> or is UMass trying to compete and forget that it is an institution of higher
|> learning? I can understand a SAT/ACT failure to go to Arkansas and pass all of
|> his classes (probably with a 4.0), but I thought higher of UMass, until now.
|> 
|>                                                         Rick Milleman

The president of UMass is an Arkansas grad!!!!!!

-- 

Michael von Foerster           Internet: foerster@dg-rtp.dg.com
DG/UX Core Development         UUCP:     {world}!mcnc!rti!dg-rtp!foerster
Data General Corporation
62 T.W. Alexander Drive
RTP, NC. 27709                 Phone:    919-248-6327
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.college
From: u_nique@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Jerray Wei)
Subject: Re: Prop 48...
Organization: HAC - Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore
Distribution: na
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1992 16:55:56 GMT

In article <1992Jul25.084729.5660@rice.edu> rbutera@is.rice.edu (Rob Butera) writes:
>
>  I DARE YOU TO DEFINE PROPER ENGLISH.  Go to any professor of Linguistics at
>  your nearest college or university, and ask him/her to define proper English.
>  You will be promptly laughed at.  The concept of "proper english" is itself
>  a cultural bias.  People in this country can't agree on it, nevermind traveling
>  from county to county in England.  Take a linguistics course or two ...

Nitpicking SOB aren't we?  If you want to waste your time on a tiny detail,
be my guest.  THE fact is, people who make those tests do define a "proper"
English.  Of course that act in itself is culturally biased because we have
to respond to what they think is right.  So?  It isn't going to stop anyone.