From: geoff@peck.com (Geoff Peck)
Subject: Re: help with ATC statement
Organization: Geoffrey G. Peck, Consultant, San Jose, CA
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1993 21:37:06 GMT

In article <1993Jan8.161811.20114@StarConn.com> jpp@StarConn.com (John
Pettitt) writes:
> It's all very well for the experience net.pilots to make comments about
> square patterns but please folks dont forget that stall speed goes up
> with bank angle and we don't want students flying 45 degree banks in the
> patern and having stall/spin problems.   I strongly reccomend students
> to ask for some stall in turn practice with a CFI - it's worth knowing
> how your particular plane bites.  The wisdom from my CFI was NEVER more
> than 30 degree bank in the pattern, not EVER, NO WAY, DONT DO IT.

This, too, is very bad advice.  Steep turns don't necessarily result in
stalls or spins.  A much more likely precursor to a low-level stall/spin
accident is an _uncoordinated_ turn, which might be what a pilot does if
he or she follows your CFI's "wisdom".  Consider this situation:

    You're turning from right base to final at an airport with parallel
    runways, when you notice that there's another aircraft turning from
    base to final on the parallel.  You realize that you started your turn
    a bit late, and that you'd better do _something_ to avoid occupying
    the same airspace as the other aircraft.  Remembering your CFI's
    "wisdom", you refuse to bank more than 30 degrees, and instead, you
    stomp on the right rudder and you pull back a bit on the yoke.
    Result:  stall/spin/die.  No kidding.

You think this is fiction?  Well, I've seen the result.  Twice.  A
crumpled, mangled 152.  In one case, the two very lucky occupants, student
and CFI, walked away.  In the other case, I believe they were not so
lucky.

So, what would be _better_ advice for a CFI to give?  (Yes, I'm a CFI, and
I'm giving you this advice...)

 o  Learn to handle steep turns -- 45 degrees or more -- at all airspeeds
    down to and including your final approach speed.

 o  Get very comfortable maneuvering at minimum controllable airspeed.
    When I say minimum, I mean minimum.  Airspeed indicator *at* the
    bottom of the green (flaps up) or white (flaps down) arc, stall
    warning horn blaring.  Make some abrupt rolls, from a 20-25 degree
    left bank to a 20-25 degree right bank.  Learn what control inputs are
    required -- a very large amount of rudder and aileron, coordinated of
    course.

 o  See what an "accelerated stall" (a stall due to too much bank) feels
    like -- if you and your instructor can get your aircraft to do one.
    (Accelerated stalls are difficult, sometimes impossible, to cause in
    certain aircraft which have limited elevator authority, such as
    Cherokees.)

 o  Get very comfortable with maneuvering near the ground.  S-turns across
    a road with fairly steep maximum bank angles (~45 degrees) are good
    for this.

 o  In the pattern, _plan_ to use about 25-30 degree banks for all turns.
    No more, no less.  If you need to use more (or less) because things
    aren't working out for one reason or another, the steps above should
    give you the confidence to do so.

Happy and safe flying.

							Geoff
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