HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis )
Subject: Re: THE ABORIGINAL GOVERNMENT OFFICIALLY RECOGNISES THE INDEPENDENCE OF MACEDONIA
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 03:55:07 GMT

sk@groo.sunbim.be (Sasa Konecni) writes:


>   The Macedonians and Aboriginals have both faced harsh
>oppression. We have the common ain of Human Rights, something
>that everyone in the world should pursue. Even our flags are
>both red and black with the golden sun symbol in the center.

 I don't know anything about the flag of the aboriginals.
 What I know is about the flag of Skopjie, which is IDENTICAL with
 the symbol of Great Alexander.  What this shows, is your intensions
 to falsify our history, our culture, and our heritage. One has to be
 BLIND if he cannot understand this simple FACT. SHAME ON YOU !!!

>   This same world condemnation will soon come down upon the
>E.C. like ten tons of bricks. Shame Australia. Shame E.C.

 E.C has to stop Russia's dreams on the Balkans; once and for all.
 You know very well what I mean ...

>Sasa.


-- 
---> Panos Tamamidis
     University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,misc.headlines
From: packer@amarna.gsfc.nasa.gov (Charles Packer)
Subject: Re: More Sarajevo notes
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.4-b1  
Organization: Dept. of Independence
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 12:15:00 GMT

In article <4eWo9uG00WB68QlbYf@andrew.cmu.edu>, Radu Eugen Edelstein <re0x+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes...
>The images I saw were bad enough, Beirut-like, to indicate that
>life is hell in Sarajevo (if one is alive).


And I've long considered Beirut to be the major photo-tease
of recent years. However, it was subtle -- pictures did after
all show areas of as much as several acres containing multiple
destroyed buildings -- so I didn't want to get into it on the
net here. Sarajevo, by contrast, is such an audacious tease that
it's worth going there to see, because the newspaper photos
don't have enough of a field of view to suggest that any
substantial damage at all has occurred, is spite of story after
story of huge bombardment. In the NY Times you would at least
expect to see photos of destroyed historic buildings, since the
Times audience is much concerned with preservation of history
and culture. As for the TV clips, which I haven't seen, I
suspect that they're mainly about people running around
frantically, (on cue?) not about destruction of real estate.
Tape the newscast on a VCR; play it back frame by frame... see
if I'm right...
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: Fascism Reawakens in Croatia, Charges Jewish Leader
From: stojanov@husc10.harvard.edu (Milan Stojanovic)
Date: 20 Aug 92 09:04:11 EDT
Organization: Harvard University Science Center

Since Mr. Loncaric still insists that Mrs Klara Mandic is not
Jewish, and cannot explain why is he doing this, I went through
trouble of finding who are her parents ( spelling mistakes are mine
and are result of the transcription back from Serbian):

Father:  Mordehai Dreilinger, prisoner in Warszava Geto
Mother: Sara Askenazi, prisoner in Djakovo camp, Croatia

As a baby taken from Djakovo camp and adopted by Mandic family.
Grateful, she did not change this family name, even as she got
married.

I will go on posting once every two days that Mr. Loncaric is a liar, 
until he either admits that he made a mistake or finds something that
would dispute this.


Milan N. Stojanovic

Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: curcija@medr0.ecs.umass.edu (Dragan Curcija)
Subject: Re: 31% Serbs take 70% of B.-H.
Organization: University of Massachusetts, Amherst
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 16:14:12 GMT

In article <1992Aug13.112546.12006@bernina.ethz.ch> mitrovic@tik.ethz.ch (Srdjan Mitrovic) writes:
>...
>On the military aspect it would not work too. The Serbian forces in B&H 
>are fighting completely autonomously from Serbia. Definetly there are
>supplies coming from Serbia. There must be, as there are such for Croats
>and Muslims. But why not trying to make a deal. Offer Serbia the lifting ...
>
>Srdjan

	In my oppinion (IMO), this is far from the truth!  The forces in B&H are
autonomous from Serbia only in that sense that overwhelming majority
of manpower comes from B&H Serbs, and that's about it.  The "new" Serbia, which
would comprise Krajinas (Croatian and B&H), Eastern Herzegovina, and some other 
parts in Bosnia ("Great Serbia") was concieved in Belgrade, Serbia, its creation
was/is directed from Belgrade, and essentially the current war is really
fought from Belgrade.  The culprit is Mr. Milosevic and his "intellectual" elite,
Dobrica Cosic, Mihajlo Markovic, among the most famous.
	Ditto for Croatia. The "new" Croatia is concieved in Zagreb long ago,
before WWII (some would argue before WWI, which probably applies to Serbia as well!),
and tried to materialize in the early forties, late sixties, and right now.  The
units in B&H are mostly B&H Croats, but the war is really fought from Zagreb.  The
culprit is Mr. Tudjman and his "intellectual" elite, Mr. Mesic, Mr. Seks among the
most famous.	

Regards,
Dragan


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Historia  Magistra  Vitae  Est
___________________________________________________________________________

Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: mitrovic@tik.ethz.ch (Srdjan Mitrovic)
Subject: Re: Clarification:  Are Troops From "Proper Serbia" engaged ?
Organization: TIK, ETH Zuerich, Switzerland
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 13:57:04 GMT

In article <weWnJ0i00WB6EQlXpg@andrew.cmu.edu> re0x+@andrew.cmu.edu (Radu Eugen
Edelstein) writes:
>According to the media, Belgrade denies that any of its forces
>are engaged in Serbia.  What is the reality ?
>I believe it is important in the light of the fact that an embargo
>is in effect against Serbia and that many on this group advocate
>military action against Belgrade, not only on the separatist Serbians
>in Bosnia.
>Please respond with verifiable facts, not with your opinion about it.

There are no regular troops with soldiers from Serbia involved
in the fighting in Bosnia. In fighting Serbian troops only Serbs from
Bosnia do fight. It would be hard to hide the recruiting of soldiers
from Serbia, thats why I think it is true.

I do not think that anybody doubts that. The Serbia is rather
blamed for supplying the Serbs in Bosnia (with whatever they need).

>
>Rad
>


Srdjan
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.bulgaria,soc.culture.greek
From: ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis )
Subject: Re: Skopje's Swiss Dreams
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 02:05:33 GMT

vkb57@cas.org () writes:

>In article <BtAotp.HHy@news.cso.uiuc.edu> ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos
>Tamamidis ) writes:  >vkb57@cas.org () writes:
>>
>> I think, when Mr. A. Samaras seized from foreign ministry, someone called
>> Junis took his place (althoug typically Mitsotakis was foreign minister).
>> Junis repeatedly said that Greece should propose the name Slavic Macedonia
>> for that state. For two weeks, there was a public critisism against Junis,
>> but Mr. Mitsotakis had kept a low profile in this debate.  In the mean time,
>> Skopjie publicly stated (I think was both Gligorov and the then foreign
>> minister) that the only acceptable name for them would be "Republic of
>> Macedonia".  Based on this reaction, Mistotakis (who was initially much more
>> flexible than Samaras), decided to follow Samaras's line.

>Thank you for the honest, sincere, and prompt clarification. What seems from
>the above to have happened is that the deputy foreign minister Junis said that
>Greece SHOULD propose the name Slavic Macedonia, thereby provoking two weeks of
>public criticism, and Mitsotakis clearly did not follow the suggestion. That is
>a far cry from the Greek government proposing the name Slavic Macedonia. As
>far as i know the official position of the Greek government was and remains
>that it objects to the use of the word Macedonia in the name.

 Politics is politics my friend. What Junis said publicly, was an indirect
 proposal to Skopjia for a compromise. The name Slavic Macedonia would clearly
 distinguish Greek Macedonia from the Slavic. What he was expecting, was a
 response from the goverment of Skopjie (even informal) that this is good
 proposal.  Unfortunately, Gligorov repeated his position that the only
 acceptable name was "Republic of Macedonia".  Journalists pointed out
 this fact, while the debate was still going in public.  It is well known
 in Greece, that if there was some gesture of good will from Skopjie,
 Mitsotakis would go for Slavic Macedonia. Junis's voice, was actually
 Mitsotakis's voice.

 Mitsotakis could never go in public and propose the name Slavic Macedonia;
 if he had done so, and then were rejected by Gligorov, this would be the end
 of his political carear.

 At that time, an oportunity was lost.  Therefore, Vasil, you'd better start
 critisizing Mr. Gligorov a little.  Do you think that the Greek politicians
 are responsible for the current situation of Skopjia? 

>Vasil Babamov


-- 
---> Panos Tamamidis
     University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: packer@amarna.gsfc.nasa.gov (Charles Packer)
Subject: Re: SARAJEVO: EYEWITNESS REPORT
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.4-b1  
Organization: Dept. of Independence
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 11:59:00 GMT

In article <1475300359@igc.apc.org>, pnmideast@igc.apc.org writes...
>[From The Militant, issue of August 21, 1992]
>hill my driver Hasan Gluhic stops in the middle of the
>predominantly Muslim  "Old Town" to show me a  mosque,  a  Catholic 
>church,  and a Serbian   orthodox  church  right  next to each 
>other  "Here we all  used to live together with no problems," he


But were the churches damaged? 

It's the kind of account given in that long posting that makes
me wonder what's really going on in Sarajevo. It described the
woes of one sheepherder who lives outside the city. But one
sheepherder isn't a whole city of 300,000 (if you read the British
press) or 400,000 (if you read the American press).

By the way, will Hasan Gluhic drive me around if I can get to
Sarajevo? How much money does he charge? 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: lhermi@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Lotfi Hermi)
Subject: FOR FAIR USE ONLY --REFILLING
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1992 22:44:06 GMT

Date: Sun, 9 Aug 92 13:17:50 PDT
Slugword: World-Iran, Bosnia, Turkey, War
Priority: major
Format: news

	
 (DWYA)- Tahran. Echoing former British Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher 
reference to the the unilateral arms embargo on former Yugoslav states must 
because of which Muslim Slavs cannot aquire arms, Iranian Cleric Ayyatollah 
Hashemi Nassir Abbaghi Firouzi said that Iran and Muslim Countries should 
send arms and by pass the international embargo tying the hands of "Muslims 
facing their second genocide in Europe." Talking to 10,000 followers and the 
Tahran Maidan-i-Shuhadda on Friday, the Iranian Cleric said " The Islamic 
government in Iran should forget about the Sunni-Shii issue, and send the 
400,000 strong force to promissed at the Cairo summit last week. Dr. Ismail 
Khan of Pakistan, a renown Nuclear physicist, also present at the meeting 
declared his major discovery of an "anti-nuclear divice that will reverse 
the fission reaction of Nuclear bombs when ignited". " We will use this 
device, if Serbian terrorists bomb nuclear cites" he said. Dr. Ismail was 
referring to a first in this new field. The device, also known as 
I.M.A.N. (Inter Molecular Accelerated Neutralizition) was first implemented in 
The Afghan war by Dr. Ismail of Pathan origin.  Dr. Ismail has been on the
top terrorist list of the state department with an offer of 100,000 million 
dollars for his head. Present in the gathering were also representatives of
different fundamentalist and Wahhabi movements from Egypt, Saudi Arabia and
major Muslim countries. "They are no longer our foes" said Saudi Ambassador to
the US, Bandar Bin Sultan, " we are going to do our duty together, I am going
myself tomorrow to Sarajevo, President Mitterand is not better than us." 
Most of the arms promissed by Turkey, and the various Muslim states are due to
arrive by Tuesday to Albania, to be shipped on Horse backs and donkeys through
the wild mountains of Montenegro. " That is the best way to ship our stuff" 
said Moussa Al-Amr, Egypt's foreign minister with strong words. " Boutrous 
Ghali stubbed us in the back, he is a christian qabti, what do expect ? " he 
said. 



Hammouda... Hammouda ti-qum, Fajr nammaz has gone and you're gonna miss it
again Allah yihdik...
_____________________________________________________________________



Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,eunet.politics,soc.culture.australian
From: d10652@tanus.oz.au (Paul Parker)
Subject: Re: EDUCATION SPECIAL: MAP OF THE WORLD
Organization: Pro-Net Australia
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 92 11:40:21 GMT


<Elsewhere From :Msg-ID: #1724 on Macedonians etc
<From: sk@groo.sunbim.be (Sasa Konecni)
<of Date: Tue, 18 Aug 92 19:13:28 GMT

 <  Ethnicity is simply self identity and governments should
 <  acknowledge self identity as a matter of fact.

 The Australian High Court and several Royal Commissions have
 certainly backed this idea.

 <  Let me ask you, what is an American, what is an Australian,
 <  what is a Canadian?

 Its a lot to do with the company you keep; You can be a Kiwi for
 some, a Maori for others, and an Aboriginal Australian for
 others. The question here is what happens if you try to be all
 at once?

 The late Sir Robert Menzies put it well when he compared
 Australians to a tartan, that we were made up with threads of
 many colours, each important for its contribution to the pattern
 of the whole.

  Trouble is that putting so much attention to each thread
  you forget the pattern of the whole.

  Or is it looking after one tree and forgetting the forest ?


 <  We respect everyone's self identity and we expect the same
    in return.


 As long as you're paying everyone will respect you.

 But will they still love you in the morning  ?

 <  The Macedonians, Greeks, Serbians, and other Balkan people
 <  should look to the future and not the past.



             Multi-Culturalism is  Cultural Schizophrenia,

                    Celebrate it with all your selfs.



Regards,
            Paul

Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: dhartung@chinet.chi.il.us (Dan Hartung)
Subject: Re: HAS ANYONE GOT ANY BiH POPULATION GRAPHS???
Organization: Chinet - Public Access UNIX
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 18:17:20 GMT

s924099@yallara.cs.rmit.OZ.AU (Petar Kozul) writes:
>Hi,
>	I remember once seeing a graph showing the population (Croats, Muslims,
>Serbs, and Yugoslavs) in each region of Bosna-Hercegovina. If there is anyone
>out there who has this or something similar, could they forward it to me.

Failing that there was a very nice if not very finely detailed map in
National Geographic (US) about a year-and-a-half ago.

You may be able to find this in a local library.

-- 
HYPOCRISY HALL OF FAME:                  | Dan Hartung               |  Ask me
"I would think very hard and long about  | dhartung@chinet.chi.il.us |  about
voting for a presidential candidate who  | Birch Grove Software      | Rotaract!
has had an affair."  -- Gennifer Flowers!
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.europe
From: cza@prefect.uucp (Cengiz Akgun)
Subject: Re: How long will we remain civilized?
Reply-To: cza@prefect.UUCP (Cengiz Akgun)
Organization: Bell Communications Research, Navesink, NJ,
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 92 21:06:06 GMT

In article <1992Aug16.182753.20856@enea.se> sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog) writes:
>in a dire situation, and cannot sustain without outside help. They
>want NATO or someone else to fight their war. If they can manipulate
>the opinion in the international community with propaganda of bad
>Serbian camps, so that an intervention becomes a reality, their odds
>improves a lot.

Why you are insulting many Bosnian deads which were received by 
Serbian fasist hoodlooms' hands by uttering the things like above?  
Their bodies are still warm you know.  Don't you feel shame to 
distort the facts by suggesting propaganda?  Bosnian said
two things so far that I have heard on the news.  They
said either intervene to stop our slaughter or let us get the
weapons to defend ourselves.  So far UN chose to do neither insisting 
on the status quo.  This is nothing but throwing them on those facists' 
mercy like giving lambs to the pack of wolfs.  Ha, UN are sending 
food to make them not very skinny when they die.  Don't you watch 
the TV everyday; the women, old, and children who are forced 
to leave their homes or put under ground for the pupose of ethnic 
cleansing.  This might be OK by you but not many people who has 
heart and soul.  CNN reported today that wood became a scarse
commodity in Bosnia and Croats and Muslims were burying
their deads without coffin.  What propaganda you are talking
about?  Bosnians claimed the existince of those camps for months
but have no means to convince the world.  Because the world,
like you, were thinking that all sides have prison
camps.  Up until British ITN (or ITV) visit those modern day 
concentration camps for ethnic cleansing.  I guess you are talking
British propaganda rather than Bosnian one.  The world changed their 
mind on this thinking but I guess you haven't yet.  What are you
waiting for, gas chambers for the smoking gun?   Give more
time, Serbian will built them too for ethnic cleansing.  
Didn't you see the walking skelotons?  


>
>Note, that I am not saying that the story of the concentration camps
>are a hoax, but I think skepticism is always healthy, and this case
>is not an exception and we have to be careful not to lose our heads
>and brush off our layer of civilization and rush to war just in case.
>-- 
>Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - sommar@enea.se
>Life is wonderful when the wonderlife is full


If you don't have anything conforting to say to Bosnians (Moslem and
Croation alike), you can at least try to be quite for the respect 
to their pain; rather than adding to it by your assertions like
above.  The war in Bosnia is uncalled for, injust, and a lopsided 
one and another monumantal shame of a fasist agression.  As usual, 
whole world is watching agaain without having a goose bumb the 
slaughter of Bosnians on the name of ethnical cleansing.

C. Akgun
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: michael.polymenakos@factory.com (Michael Polymenakos) 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.bulgaria,soc.culture.greek
Subject: RE: SKOPJE'S SWISS DREAMS
Date: 22 Aug 92 17:44:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Invention Factory's BBS - New York City, NY - 212-274-1243v.32bis
Reply-To: michael.polymenakos@factory.com (Michael Polymenakos) 


>>>Michael Polymenakos (michael.polymenakos@factory.com)  writes:

>>To make it even clearer, greece did not refuse
>>them the use of the word macedonia.  Inboth the proposals of the greek
>>goverement, either calling it slavic macedonia, either naming a
province
>>only macedonia, we clearly did not object to the use of the word.

 The above is a MISQUOTE. I never said that. I understand that it is
probably just an honest mistake (Too many quotes from too many people
mixed together).

 In any case, both Greece and the EEC have rejected the use of the word
Macedonia, _or_any_derivative_of_that_word_.

Michael.
                                                                             
Xref: sparky soc.culture.yugoslavia:7984 soc.culture.bulgaria:1152 soc.culture.greek:7558
From: cla04@seq1.keele.ac.uk (A.T. Fear)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.bulgaria,soc.culture.greek
Subject: Re: Skopje's Swiss Dreams (was: MACEDONIA: A SWITZERLAND...)
Date: 15 Aug 92 10:01:14 GMT
Organization: University of Keele, England

From article <1992Aug15.065036.9965@news.weeg.uiowa.edu>, by lolonis@news.weeg.uiowa.edu (Panagiotis Lolonis):
 
> Greeks try to protect their national security

In England a newspaper report (Guardian) told us the Macedonian army consisted of
2,000 men and 2 helicopters. I'd have thought that this wouldn't have
posed a threat even to the most incompetent opposition. 

> and cultural heritage.

Despite the highly contentious nature of Greek claims in this area, even
if we accept them as true isn't imitation the sincerest form of flattery? I'd be pleased if the French
started to claim they were really English.
 
> 
>>I wonder, might this perhaps reflect some cultural inferiority complex on 
>>the part of these Greek people?

Getting to look that way, Zoltan, the Greeks are doing themselves no favours at
all in the world by persisting with this.

I still read this newsgroup as an antidote to fits of optimism about
mankind


Andy
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: Skopje's Swiss Dreams (was: MACEDONIA: A SWITZERLAND...)
From: lihouba@iris.weizmann.ac.il (Christo Houbaviy)
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1992 02:12:03 GMT
Organization: Weizmann Institute of Science, Computing Centre

In article <1992Aug12.233114.28008@cs.mcgill.ca> filippou@cs.mcgill.ca (Dimitrios FILIPPOU) writes:
>In article <93426@bu.edu> [Date: 12 Aug 92 07:59:29 GMT]
>Lou Bouis (buis@buengc.bu.edu) wrote:
>
>> Some people on this panel pointed out the analogy between Macedonia's
>> and Switzerland's cases in the European history.
>
> [...]
>
>> These are the excerpts from Ivan Mihailoff's book "Macedonia: A
>> Switzerland of the Balkans", which he published  right after World War
>> II. The English translation was copyrighted in April of 1950 by the
>> translator, Dr. Christ Anastasoff.
>
>[HUGE posting deleted]
>
>Ms./Mr. Bouis,
>
>  you'd better forget your Swiss dreams. As far as I know, the

[stuff about Bosnia-Herzegovina deleted]

>  I also find that those excerpts you copied from Mihailoff's book
>contain enough material to keep you engaged in dogfights with my
>fellow Greek netters for a long-long time. Personally, I'll try
>to resist the temptation :-) !

Probably because those netters cannot engage the late Ivan (Vanche) Mihailov
personally :-)

>  Finally, I don't think that cross-posting such huge articles from
>God-knows-how-respectable-sources is very healthy neither to you
>(you waist your time, unless you have a scanner at your disposal),
>nor to the USENET readers (most of them get immediately tired and press
>"next article" after a couple of screens).

Hmmm 'God-knows-how-respectable-sources'. If I were you I would have thought
twice before saying such a thing. Well, people say that The Organization is no
longer active, but who knows one nice day you may receive a pound or two of
Semtex (sp.?) in your mail :-) :-) :-)

>My friendly regards,
>
>Dimitrios Filippou
>
Likewise,

Christo Houbaviy
Xref: sparky soc.culture.yugoslavia:8019 soc.history:7424
From: kym@bingsuno.cc.binghamton.edu (R. Kym Horsell)
Subject: Re: THE ABORIGINAL GOVERNMENT OFFICIALLY RECOGNISES THE INDEPENDENCE OF MACEDONIA
Organization: State University of New York at Binghamton
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 15:15:04 GMT

In article <1992Aug20.003723.6415@usage.csd.unsw.OZ.AU> 8939527@hydra.maths.unsw.EDU.AU () writes:
>	The Aboriginal minority in Australia has no knowledge
>in what is happening in Makedonia. Don't be stupid. 

I'm amazed that 8939527 can presume to speak for several hundred
thousand people. It must either be the case that this entity
has done extensive research in the communities concerned or
has been misled by the somewhat abusive ``minority'' tag that
seems to be prevelant amongst some (i.e. ``minority'' == ``ignorant'').

-kym