HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: nlt@gboro.glassboro.edu (N. L. Tinkham)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: Anabaptists
Date: 11 Sep 92 22:35:49 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Department, Rowan College of New Jersey

James Kiefer writes, in regard to the history of Anabaptists and the
origin of their name:

> Their neighbors say that they are getting re-baptized, and
> call them Anabaptists. They themselves say that they are getting
> really and truly baptized for the first time, and call themselves
> Baptists. Therefore, the term "Anabaptist" is simply another name
> for the people who are usually called Baptists, and occurs mainly in
> historical references to the rise of their movement in the sixteenth
> century, at about the time of Luther and Calvin.

     The term "Anabaptist" ("re-baptizer") was applied to the Anabaptists
because of their practice of adult baptism, but I don't think the Baptists
and the Anabaptists are as closely linked in history as this paragraph
suggests, despite their similarity of custom regarding baptism.  In the
brief summary of Baptist history that Nancy Tatom Ammerman gives in her
book _Baptist_Battles_, Ammerman says that while "conversations" took place
between some early Baptists and Anabaptists, the groups remained separate.

     For readers interested in Anabaptists, _Christianity_Today_'s October 22,
1990 issue contains a collection of articles titled "America's Anabaptists"
which describes the life, beliefs, and history of several Anabaptist groups in
the U.S.  Their list of groups includes Mennonites, Amish, Church of the
Brethren, Brethren in Christ, and Hutterites.

_____________________________________________________________________________

                                              Nancy Tinkham
                                              nlt@gboro.glassboro.edu
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Date:         Fri, 11 Sep 1992 13:44:00 CDT
From:         Tom Brewer <NOTTMB@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: The unelectable elect.
              11 Sep 1992 10:01:39 -0700 from <DRAKE@ASUCHM.LA.ASU.EDU>

Mark:

The issue is not ambiguous at all. Read John 6 and Romans 9 for starters.
By saying I don't feel I have to prove it, does not mean I'm not teachable.
If you have the Truth, I want it. My point is that John 6 clearly, not
ambiguously, teaches God's sovereignty in salvation. Those who believe other-
wise are burdened with proving it otherwise.

Silly me,

Tom
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Date:         Mon, 14 Sep 1992 17:07:06 EDT
From:         JEK@NIHCU.BITNET
Subject:      for Holy Cross Day (14 Sept)

FOR HOLY CROSS DAY (14 SEPTEMBER 335)

After the persecution of the Church by the Roman government had
ceased, the Emperor Constantine authorized the building of a
church in Jerusalem over the traditional site of the Holy
Sepulchre. This building was dedicated on 14 September 335, and
this date is celebrated as the Feast of the Exaltation of the
Holy Cross, an anticipation of the time when all mankind will
acknowledge the Crucified and Risen Lord.

PRAYER
   Almighty God, whose Son our Savior Jesus Christ was exalted
   high upon the cross that he might draw the whole world unto
   himself: Mercifully grant that we, who glory in the mystery of
   our redemption, may have grace to take up our cross and follow
   him; who liveth and reigneth with thee and the Holy Spirit, one
   God, in glory everlasting.
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
From: timk@world.std.com (Tim King)
Subject: Re: Tradition (was Re: Second parousia in the past?)
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 23:13:08 GMT

nabil@cae.wisc.edu (Nabil Ayoub) writes concerning James Keifer's essay
on Sola Scriptura:

>I retrieved this article and read it. It did not impress me a whole lot (for
>example, the author said that St. Athanasius was Greek! It is well known that
>he is a Copt or an Egyptian...
>I could not find any solid argument that denies
>that "Sola Scripture" is in clear contradiction with John 21:25 or denies
>the authenticity of Tradition.

Then you didn't look very well.  I'm sorry you feel this way, Nabil.
You make objections that have absolutely no bearing on James' argument,
and you use emminently flawed logic in deriving your conclusions.  I can
see that I'm not going to convince you of anything.  However, for the
benifit of anyone else who is reading and needs to hear it...

The article SOLA SCRIPT *does* make a very well stated reply to the
objection in question.  Read it, and come to your own conclusions.

>Here is another verse that supports the authenticity of Tradition :

>   Acts 20:35  [quote of Christ deleted]

>...
>this quote cannot be found anywhere in any of the four gospels. Morover, St.
>Paul did not hear it firsthand, but it was probably passed to him by another
>disciple. This is Tradition, pure, plain and simple!

I'll assume that Paul was actually quoting Jesus and not paraphrasing Him.

(1) You found this quote in the book of Acts.
(2) The book of Acts is part of scripture.
(3) Therefore, this quote is part of scripture.

And *I'm* not even a logician!!!

Side question:  One of you logicians out there...  How can this be stated
inductively instead of deductively?

-TimK
-- 
Tim King                  |  Some of us favor logic in making decisions.
24 Myrtle Street          |  Some, emotions.  I, personally, get very    |\
Dedham, MA 02026          |  emotional about faulty logic! :-)           | >
timk@world.std.com        |                                             <>
From: FACN34B@SAUPM00.BITNET (zane of dhahran)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: tradition/Assembly of God
Date: 14 Sep 92 13:43:08 GMT
Organization: King Fahd University of Petroleum and Minerals, S.A.
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Brian,

I certainly don't mean to put down the Assembly of God church in any way when
I say "tradition you could cut with a knife."  You must surely know too that
there is great variety between different local assemblies of God churches. So
what I experienced at one (or two) may certainly be different than what I did.
Anyway, yes, I am probably using "tradition" differently.  I guess I meant some
teaching or way of doing something that is received through extra-biblical oral
or written sources.  An example in the Assemblies of God that I was talking
about would be the oral rule that no one could "preach" from the pulpit without
a suit or sports jacket on.  Come to think of it, the use of the pulpit, the
"altar," the church building, the meeting times, the format of the meetings,
etc... would all be what I am talking about when I mean tradition.  Also doing
a formatted doxology at the end of the service, the pastor standing at the
back of the "church" to shake hands at the end of the service, the use of
church bulletins to disseminate info, the way an offering was taken...I could
go on and on....  This is probably somewhat different than the way others have
been using the word "tradition."  But I wonder...I have seen resistance to any
changes taking place in even some of these what would seem like very periferal
traditions...
                                         Peace, zane
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Date:         Tue, 15 Sep 1992 09:02:36 CDT
From:         Jesse Carnes <NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Predestination ... Jesse

DEar All on Christia ;

Just a blurb here.
I have a question.  How is it that some people want to discuss the "P"
word again?
I do not mind ... in fact I am an absolute Predestinarian.  But what I do not
understand is WHY bring it up if the VAST majority of people will do nothing
but rail against it?
Further, how many people take the time to study the Scriptures carefully in
context before going off half-cocked??
I want dialogue to be fruitful ... serious ... and based upon careful
exegeticalusage of hermeneutical principals.



Jesse Carnes
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Date:         Mon, 7 Sep 1992 06:18:08 -0700
From:         Frank Bechhaus <bechhaus@LUCKY.LION.DE>
Subject:      Capital punishment? (was: Misc. Pro Life)
              at Sep 5, 92 5:28 pm

Hello Maks,

while I agree with the viewpoint that it is not a good idea to link
such different topics as abortion and capital punishment together...

> Capital punishment and killing is a just and defensible war can be
> rightfully conducted.

... I just can't see how this statement is compatible with a Christian
perspective.

> leads us to misinterpret God's law.

The highest law given to us is that we shall love God with all our
heart, soul and spirit and (equally) that we shall love other people
like ourselves. Jesus commands us to even love our enemies. On which
law is capital punishment and war based ?  Just curious...

In Christ, Frank

       ____                                               __
 __O ()     Thy word is a lamp  |  Frank Bechhaus |    __/ /_
/ /\_/ \    unto my feet and a  |-----------------|   /_  __/
 |\     \   light unto my path. | ><> ichthys <>< |    / /
/ /      \  Ps 119:105          |-----------------|   /_/
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Date:         Fri, 11 Sep 1992 13:29:00 CDT
From:         BKCOBB@LIFE.UAMS.EDU
Subject:      Re: Ezekiel chapter 16:49-50

I think Sodom here is being used to refer to the nation of
Israel (or is it Judah?).  Bible's not handy right
now, but as I recall it's one or the other.


Brian
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Date:         Tue, 15 Sep 1992 16:25:31 EDT
From:         Bernice Tennant <U1A9A@WVNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      RE: Homosexuality (again)

Excuse me brother Steven.  I know the abortion debates are tiresome.  But, I
 first came to this list as a pro-choice person.  I would have never deliber-
 atly aborted, but I was of the opinion that others   should do as they wished
 and suffer for their sins later.  I have since learned that there is alot of
 suffering on the part of the fetus/baby and that babies sometimes survive
 the attempt to take their life.  I use the term babies  because the fetus
  lived to painfully survive and become a baby  which no one could doubt.
 I learned alot that people just don't know.  I changed my mind about this.
 I am only one person but  I know that others have to be touched by this
 too.

As Christians    we cannot overlook the truth just because it gets tiresome
and it is easier to let those in the wrong wear us down.  How can we do as
the Apostles did and other good followers of Christ if we just give up and
let others accept  what we know in our hearts is against what Jesus would want
 for his followers.  We must continually seek the will of God in everything we
say.  Maybe those tired could do something else like send Bible verses or words
of Praise to God and delete the Abortion messages and let   those less tired
continue the discussion.  You never know when somewhere someone would log on
by the urgence of the Holy Spirit and learn something that would touch their
heart.

                               Love, your sister in Christ, Bernice
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Date:         Tue, 15 Sep 1992 12:28:20 CDT
From:         Tom <NOTTMB@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: The unelectable elect.
              15 Sep 1992 05:36:33 GMT from <gjm11@CUS.CAM.AC.UK>

Gareth:

Read through John 6 and see what words Christ uses to describe the work of
the Father.

Tom
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Date:         Wed, 9 Sep 1992 07:45:00 CDT
From:         BKCOBB@LIFE.UAMS.EDU
Subject:      Re: Tradition (was Re: Second parousia in the past?)

Dear Christia;

Someone sent a post (I think it was Fr Mark) discussing
some of the things I said in a previous post, but I
accidentally deleted it.  Whoever it was, would you mind
reposting as I would like to reply to it?

Thanks,

Brian
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Date:         Tue, 15 Sep 1992 12:42:08 EDT
From:         Leo W <Leo_W@QM.CIRCA.UFL.EDU>
Subject:      Scripturette 9/15

"In Christ we can come before God with freedom and without fear.  We can do
this through faith in Christ" (Ephesians 3:12).

"The Son paid for our sins, and in him we have forgiveness" (Colossians 1:14).

Yours in Christ Jesus,
Leo

Scriptures quoted from the International Children's Bible (ICB), New Century
Version, copyright 1986, 1988 by Word Publishing, Dallas, Texas 75039.  Used by
permission.
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Date:         Fri, 11 Sep 1992 10:57:59 CDT
From:         Tom Brewer <NOTTMB@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Tradition, Sola Scriptura and church "fathers."
              11 Sep 1992 11:25:00 EST from
              <GRAHAM%DRCV06.decnet@DRCVAX.AF.MIL>

Dan:

You mentioned the church history you had forgotten. Can I recommend two
books that I think you, and everyone else for that matter,will enjoy:

   THE REFORMERS AND THEIR STEPCHILDREN
              and
   ANATOMY OF A HYBRID
              both books are by Leonard Verduin

It's been years since I read ANATOMY, but I think in the end you will
conclude the "true church" has always been small and despised, the remnant.
There has never been anything glorious about the church on earth except her
Lord. By glorious I mean, never has the true church been some giant
organizational structure with great cathedrals, symphony music, large choirs,
etc. NO I AM NOT SAYING THOSE THINGS ARE EVIL! I'm just saying the true church
will be hated and persecuted by the world and those in religion who think they
are doing the will of God as they suppress the truth.

Tom Brewer
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Date:         Tue, 8 Sep 1992 10:24:39 EDT
From:         "St. John Koczan" <CA36%CATCC.BITNET@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
Subject:      Liberty University???

    I am concerned about Liberty University.  I am turly sorry that
some of you are Anti-Jerry Falwell.  I got mess information about the
future for Liberty University that Liberty University is about going
bankrupt.  If anyone of you know about this.  Pls inform me on this for
confirmation. Thanks

--St. John Koczan
From: psyrobtw@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (Robert Weiss)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: Sponged
Date: 7 Sep 92 01:19:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <1992Sep2.035702.22346@gboro.glassboro.edu>, kilroy@gboro.glassboro.edu (Dr Nancy's Sweetie) writes...
> 
>Ann Carlson wrote an article referring people to books arguing that the Bible
>does not condemn homosexuals.  In reply, Robert Weiss presents a quote from
>the Christia database (written by an author who is not named):
> 
>> For those that are not aware, in _Living in Sin?_ (Harper, 1988), Spong
>> argues that homosexual acts should not be considered as sin.
>>
>> Spong is also the author of _Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism_
>> (Harper, 1991). In this work, Spong posits that the miraculous works of
>> Jesus are myth (pp 129-33, pp 143-44), that the Gospel of John doesn't
>> contain a single word that was spoken by Jesus (p 191), [ and so on - kwh ]
>>
>> I realize that Louie pointed readers to _Living in Sin?_ and not to
>> _Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism_.  However, I think that pointing to
>> what Spong teaches will help one to discern whether he is a teacher of truth
>> or an apostate teacher.
> 
>And this is, of course, a paradigm example of the fallacy known as _ad
>hominem_.  Instead of attacking the opponent's arguments about homosexuality,
>the writer has attacked the man himself.  But Bishop Spong's personal
>attributes -- whether he is apostate, inspired, brilliant, idiotic, insane,
>immoral or saintly -- are irrelevant.


	Not precisely.

	The conclusion of apostate was given after a brief 
introduction of what Spong's written views are (the above condensed 
list has some deletions). It would be an ad hominem to direct an attack 
against the man, based on who he is, ignoring the point at hand.

	The point at hand is that Spong was put forward as a man whose 
teaching on homosexuality and the Bible are worth learning from.

	This argues a meta view: What is Spong's view on the Bible.

	It makes little sense to look to Spong as an expert on the matter of 
Biblical based morality if he believes the Bible nothing but myth.


=============================
Robert Weiss
psyrobtw@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu
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From: nlt@gboro.glassboro.edu (N. L. Tinkham)
Subject: No True Church?
Organization: Computer Science Department, Rowan College of New Jersey
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1992 16:40:10 GMT

Brad Kaiser writes:

> I find this rather shocking.  What all three of these gentlemen seem
> to be *assuming* is that there is some possibility that *NO* True
> Church even exists.

> So is there *NO* True Church at all?  Has God deserted us?  Was this
> business about the jaws of hell not prevailing against His church [Mt
> 16:18] just a lie?

It is a common Protestant belief that no infallible church exists -- that is,
that there is no denomination, church leader, or school of theology that
is guaranteed to be free from doctrinal error.

As I would use the words, this is not the same as saying that there is no
"true church" and that God has deserted us.  I believe that God is present
with all of us who follow Christ, and I see the collection of all Christians,
Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant, and others, as together being the "true
church".  We're terribly fragmented, and we often don't exhibit Christ's
love towards one another, but I see this as an ongoing struggle with hell
in which hell has not prevailed against us; God's grace and love have
remained with us through the struggle.

I do not know of any church (or group within the church) that is completely
free from error, including my own denomination.  It is one of the classic
Protestant/Catholic differences that Protestants do not expect the church
to be infallible.  I can see that the possibility of error would be
disturbing from a Catholic perspective, but most Protestants are not
particularly bothered by it.
_____________________________________________________________________________

                                              Nancy Tinkham
                                              nlt@gboro.glassboro.edu
From: psyrobtw@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (Robert Weiss)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: [US Politics] What Watt said   [was Re: Al Gore's religious beliefs]
Date: 13 Sep 92 17:48:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <1992Sep13.031830.4683@gboro.glassboro.edu>, kilroy@gboro.glassboro.edu (Casket Distributors) writes...

[...]

> 
>Interesting how Mr Marrs reads this.  How many of us remember when James Watt
>said that we shouldn't bother trying to conserve our environment, since Jesus
>was coming back soon and he'd fix whatever damage we did?
> 
>Mr Watt's belief in Bible prophecy is fine with me; I share that belief.  But
>what he intended to do -- allowing the pollution of God's Earth which we were
>SUPPOSED to take care of -- made me ill. 

	Quote, please?

	This came up on another list that I am on. James Keifer sent a 
reply that indicated that Secretary Watt may have been quoted out of 
context. The pertinent extracts follow:

=============================================================================

 > You've probably all heard about the US cabinet officer during
 > the Reagan administration who is supposed to have said that it
 > was unnecessary to worry about acid rain and other forms of
 > environmental pollution since the Lord Jesus was coming back so
 > soon.

[...]

For the Record:

On February 5, 1981, at a House of Representatives
Interior Committee Meeting, Rep. James Weaver (D, Ore), asked Watt
whether "you agree that we should save some of our scenic resources
for our children, not just gobble them up all at once?" Watt's
answer was:

 < Absolutely. That is the delicate balance the Secretary of the
 < Interior must have -- to be steward for the natural resources
 < for this generation as well as future generations. I do not
 < know how many future generations we can count on before the
 < Lord returns.  Whatever it is, we have to manage with a skill
 < to have the resources needed for future generations.

My source is a column by Rowland Evans and Robert Novak on the
op-ed page of the WASHINGTON POST for Friday 21 August 1981.

 Yours,
 James Kiefer

=============================================================================


=============================
Robert Weiss
psyrobtw@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: council of Trent & scriptura
From: bthurman@uncavx.unca.edu
Date: 10 Sep 92 12:31:35 -0500
Organization: University of North Carolina at Asheville
Nntp-Posting-User: bthurman

council of trent?  what of all the followers of Jesus who expired before it? 
could the Spirit that they received not inform them which writings to pay
attention to?
a timid suggestion on the notorious text in II Timothy (held by so many
academics to be a pseudepigraphical imposition): Could it possibly have nothing
at all to say about the original authorship?  Could it really be speaking of
the immediate quickening ('divine-breathing' < theopneustos) of writing to the
disciple who will have been chosen to do the encouraging or advising implied? 
Would the gist not rather be that any writing (graphe, scriptura) divinely
communicated in the Spirit will have its desired benefit (ophelimos) or
advantageous effect?  Even a pagan poet quoted at Athens proved 'also
profitable ...' etc.
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