From: riggs@descartes.tec.army.mil (Bill Riggs)
Newsgroups: talk.abortion,talk.politics.misc,talk.religion.misc,misc.legal
Subject: Re: = Judge Not =  (Re: Abuse of Scriptures, and Violation of Rom 13)
Keywords: free zone (AZ), idolatry of life, ps - PaganChristianOther
Date: 22 Jan 93 02:41:49 GMT
Followup-To: talk.abortion,talk.politics.misc,talk.religion.misc,misc.lega
Organization: LNK Corporation, Riverdale, MD

In article <20JAN199314553797@utarlg.uta.edu> b645zaw@utarlg.uta.edu (Stephen Tice) writes, in a very detailed and thoughtful piece::

(Lengthy discourse deleted - no real need for a blow-by-blow discussion.

>
>And so GOD is as much *for* Bill Clinton as Saddam Hussein, and will use
>America or Iraq as He see's fit. Which doesn't mean I should drop my 
>walk with the lord to join forces with either, or against either -- 
>though still paying taxes where I'm forced too, serving in the military
>as required, or expressing loyalty if demanded -- as long as I can still
>follow the commands of The Lord:
>
>	Love GOD with all your heart, mind, soul and strength,
>
>	and love your neighbor as yourself, 
>
>	(even when your neighbor is an enemy).
>
>   |
>-- J --
>   |
>   |  Stephen   "All glory to GOD!! Mysterious are the ways of The Lord."
>	

	I would point out here that some of my late propogation of the 
writings of Jonathan Swift has been motivated by the fear of the spread of
precisely the ideas which Stephen enunciates so well in his article.
The abuse of Christians and Christian principles has become so widespread 
in American society, to say nothing of Usenet Kultur, that only Swift's
invective seems radical enough to stem the tide. And it is only understandable
that sincere, believing Christian Americans should seek refuge in apolitical
sanctuaries such as Romans 13, in order to both reconcile their personal
beliefs with the will of God and avoid the very real problem of choosing
between two evils, a problem which has become more frequent in my lifetime.

	I would like to take this opportunity to point out the following:

	1. There is a great difference between the rights and duties of
a Subject and a Citizen. If one wishes to keep one's conscience clean, then
the role of subject is easy - but America is a democracy. Our Christian 
subjects share in the decisions of the nation, and therefore its sins as well.
If that places us in a dilemma with respect to the Almighty, there is little
we can do - except to pray for grace, grace to avoid the need for choosing
evil, and grace to forgive when the choice inevitably must be made. But unlike
so many other nations' subjects, we CAN influence our destiny. We CAN decide,
for instance whether we wish to pay the taxes required to support our military
might. We CAN decide, whether to serve in the military, or not. These are
our rights - and our moral burdens.

	2. Stephen's article does not adequately address the issue of civil
disobedience. It is not simply a matter of failing to obey the law, nor is
it a matter of recognizing God's law as sovereign over laws made by men.
Civil disobediance involves actively seeking to break the law to challenge
the law. That is what Martin Luther King did. That is what Daniel Berrigan did.
That is what Operation Rescue is doing. An excess of liberty is no more
excused when exercised by Christians as when it is exercised by anyone else !!
It is unconstitutional for the impose religious beliefs on U.S. citizens, and
I believe it is unconstitutional for the government to take actions which 
violate the religious convictions of its citizens (I might be taken to task
on this matter, since there are many areas today in which this is, in fact,
done). But it is illegal for U.S. citizens, of Christian belief, to use their
beliefs as justification to break the law, in order to defy the law, to deny
the legitimacy of the law, or to change the law. In short, I am uncomfortable
with Christian libertarians, even as I am uncomfortable with libertarians in
general.

	3. On the points of paying taxes and military service, I would point
out that while the law requires us to pay taxes, as long as there is a
volunteer military, there is no such sanction with respect to military
service. Military service is a clear reflection of the citizen's role as 
the willing participant in the tasks of a secular state. But there is no 
sanction requiring anyone in America to fight and kill for the interests of
the state or its people. I would also say that this situation might well 
give Christians pause, since the implication of Stephen's remarks is that
God's use of sinful men to forward His will benefits Christians, since God
loves his children, and works His will to benefit them. I am more Christian
than humanist, but I am enough of a humanist to be troubled by this.


	Now, Stephen's comments are quite different, and in many ways opposed
to those propounded by Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell, who in their
more chauvinistic moments, emphasize the doctrine that the US is a Christian
nation, founded on Christian principles. What is problematic, hopeless,
and foreboding, is the thought that we will have fewer "hypocrites" of this
type in the future, as the Christian community becomes more and more divided
from the commonwealth at large, as the outlook of Christians in America
becomes more internationalized, and as multiculturalism begins to work its
way deeper and deeper into the American body politic. Once we saw ourselves 
as the secular heirs of Greece and Rome, even as much as we saw ourselves as 
the spiritual heirs of the Israelites and the primitive Church. But the night
comes quickly, and there is much left undone.

Bill R.

--

"When up a dangerous faction starts,         "My opinions do not represent
With wrath and vengeance in their hearts;     those of my employer or
By solemn League and Cov'nant bound,          any government agency."
To ruin, slaughter, and confound;             - Bill Riggs (1992)
To turn religion to a fable,
And turn the Government to a Babel;
Pervert the law, disgrace the gown,
Corrupt the senate, rob the crown;
To sacrifice old England's glory,
And make her infamous in story.
When such a tempest shook the land,
How could unguarded virtue stand ?"
- Jonathan Swift (1732)
Newsgroups: talk.abortion,talk.religion.misc,alt.atheism