From: ckincy@cs.umr.edu (Charles Kincy)
Subject: Re: DOS 6 Beta Looks for OS/2!!!!!!!!
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 22:28:26 GMT
Organization: University of Missouri - Rolla, Rolla, MO

In article <1i9qjhINNcft@cae.cad.gatech.edu> chris@cad.gatech.edu (Chris McClellen) writes:

>>God, Phil.  I hope you aren't serious.
>
>He actually is.  I am starting to lose a lot of respect for MS
>after reading a lot of things the MS employees say on the net.  They
>are downright rude to people sometimes, especially when a user
>says something like "I disagree... I think that BLAH BLAH",. and
>an MS employee (remaining nameless) will usually say "get a clue!"
>
>I find such behavior rude, and also, unprofessional.  

Maybe so.  But I've also seen people be rude and crass towards the
MSers.  

[Myself included.  :)]

I would say that they're following the "When in Rome" principle.

>Secondly, statements such as the above only make microsoft look
>bad.  I am not going to sit here and argue word theory to MS
>employees nor the net, but seeing comments like "What is wrong
>with that statement? its perfectly valid!" when the comment is
>rude or suspicious (ie, Delete OS/2?, or Delete Unix, or Delete that?),
>really makes some people look ignorant.  I know that to MS employees,
>ms can do no wrong.  Its perfect.  However, there IS an outside world
>that does look at Microsoft, and Judge.

Oh, come on, would you publically embarrass your employer on a 
worldwide network?  Think about it.  MS employees aren't going to
say stuff like "yes, I admit that MS is leading a life of SLEAZERY".
Give me a break.  They're going to, externally, sing the praises
of their company's achievments.  Even IBM people do it, although, 
due to IBM regulations, they seem to be more reserved.  There are
reasons for that, you know.  IBM has a dark and dirty legal history
that MS does not.  So IBMers have to be careful.  MSers do not.

Whether MSers *should* be polite to others in public is a value
judgement, and I'll leave that up to the MSers.

Sure, MS netters are a little obnoxious, but MS likes that quality in its
employees, so it seems.  Look at Bill Gates, Steve "I'll eat a 
diskette" Ballmer, or Gordon "Free trip to Seattle" Letwin, for 
instance.  You just don't get any more abrasive than those three. :)
So if Lafornara and Skelley are abrasive, think of it as fitting into
the corporate image.  :)

>For instance, if MSDOS said something like this on bootup:
>"DOS has detected foriegn operating systems on the hard disk you
>are going to install to.  Also, DOS has detected wierd data on
>your DOS partitions.  You should reformat your entire disk, and use
>only Microsoft products to prevent bad data from getting on your
>disk"

Well, I don't think the message would misspell "weird".  That would
be unprofessional.  :-)

You may be right.  But, remember, that this is a 

** BETA **

and that MS people, as a rule, are a tad mischievous.  I.e., don't 
worry about it.

>I bet the same people would say "Whats wrong with that??"

On a BETA, there is nothing wrong with that.

Now, if the final product that I paid $99 for pulled shit like that,
I would be righteously pissed.

>Please, I dont want followups from MS employees.  Lets let this thread
>end.  The reason I really dont want follow ups is because :
>A. the poster will more than likely be rude and crass.
>B. the poster will probably say "Whats wrong with that?? Prove to me
>    it is wrong, or shut the heck up!"

Oh, come on.  I don't exactly call your article "polite", Mr. Buhr.

>These are my opionions, so I need not prove anything, although,
>a quick check of a published API for common sense will return
>some people to reality.  (attention flamers:  do not say 'You need
>to get back into reality' -- that doesnt make a good flame).

No, if people would express their concerns about MS calmly, MS people
would probably not be quite as rude.

In fact, I will give you a summary of my problems with MS, just so
you don't think I'm in bed with them.

First of all, Microsoft supplies the OSes, DOS and Windows.  MS also
sells applications, Word, Excel, etc.

On the other hand, IBM sells OS/2.  No applications.

Now, if I were an applications developer, I would be willing to give
OS/2 a *large* benefit of the doubt on several areas BECAUSE I KNOW
IBM WILL BE STRAIGHT WITH ME.  They don't even have the temptation
to hide undocumented calls and then use the calls themselves to 
compete with me.  

Unfortunately, Microsoft does.  Even though I can't prove that they
do, I am still nervous that they will use undocumented features to gain
a competitive advantage over me.  I would be suspicious of any tech-
nical support, because why would Microsoft be willing to "help out"
a competitor?

The ultimate decision rests upon whether this uncertainty outweighs
the enormous market penetration that you get with Windows.  If I'm 
small, and just starting out, I would have to say yes.  But if I'm
a large company like Lotus, or even a small company that relies
upon large volumes for its life blood, such as Borland or WordPerfect,
the decision becomes much more difficult.  Do I go the large instant
cash route, and work closely with someone whose ultimate goal is to
put me out of business (Microsoft), or do I go the slow cash route and
work with a company that has nothing to gain by being obnoxious (IBM)?

Difficult indeed.  In 10 years, we will see what the correct answer is.

Or, the super smart course is to hedge your bets and develop
for both OS/2 *and* NT.  Which is what Borland, WP, and Lotus are doing
anyway.  They may not be marketing the OS/2 product as much, but, face
it, if it turns out that MS was screwing with them, they will in
the future.  The idea is to have a backup product. 

Myself, I will develop only for OS/2.  I have not the time nor the
energy to do the development on both systems.  This may change once
I graduate from college.  If I can only get a job as a Windows
developer, then I will learn Windows programming really fast.  :)
I mean, face it, I got bills to pay, just like you do.  OS/2 is not
worth starving over.

This is a much more rational way of presenting things, rather than 
saying that "MS is crude and evil and blah blah blah".

MS pulls no punches and makes a lot of money.  That's part of being
in business in America.  You're required to be ruthless.  I find it
somewhat admirable, somewhat amusing, and somewhat sickening.
Kinda like riding on a well-engineered roller-coaster.  :)

cpk
-- 
"The WHITE ZONE is for loading and unloading only.  If you gotta load or un-
load, go to the WHITE ZONE.  You'll love it.  It's a way of life!" --Zappa

Technology always seems to keep one step ahead of human wisdom.
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy