HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jaslow@bissun.kodak.com (Russell Jaslow)
Subject: Re: Car intentionally runs down cyclists!
Organization: Eastman Kodak
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 93 14:26:06 GMT

In article <1993Jan21.192549.28143@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> scl@sasha.acc.Virginia.EDU (Steve Losen) writes:
>
>Perhaps someone with knowlege of the law can clear up the various degrees
>of murder charges.  As I understand it, to convict for 1st degree murder,
>you have to prove premeditation, that the murderer planned in advance to
>kill the victim.  For 2nd degree I believe that you just have to prove the
>intent to kill, but not premeditation (a "heat of the moment" murder). 
>Then there's a charge for intending to just injure someone, but ending up
>killing them. (manslaughter?)  Note that it would be easier to convice a
>jury of intent to injure than intent to kill.
>

I can only tell you what it is in NYS since I just sat through part of a
trial because a friend was killed by a drunk driver driving the wrong way
on an Interstate highway, hitting my friend's car head on.

The driver was charged with 2nd degree murder by depraved indifference.  In
New York State, 2nd degree murder is for premeditated murder.  However,
you can use that charge if you can show depraved indifference.  Another
words, you had no intention of killing someone, but through your wanton
reckless behavior you showed a depraved indifference to life and caused a
death.  The definition as the law is read is very confusing.  In fact the
jury asked the judge to read the law no less than 4 different times.  After
a while, I was losing track of what the definition was.

Also, in NYS, the jury may find the defendant guilty of lesser charges.  In
this case, they could find the defendant guilty of 2nd degree manslaughter
(where just reckless behavior is shown) or an even lesser charge of criminal
negligence homocide.  [However, there are cases where if the prosecutor does
not use the proper charge, the person can get off scott free because no 
lesser charges can be applied.  Thus, even if the defendant is guilty of
something, the prosecutor can make a mistake and not get any conviction.
Totally confused?  I am!]

In this particular case, the jury found the defendant not guilty of the murder
charge, but guilty of the manslaughter charge, as well as two DWI charges. 
We felt that the problem was not with the jury but with the way the law is
defined.  It was too ambigious with the definition of the phrase "depraved
indifference".  Disappointing to say the least.

In the this bicycle case, there would be more to get her with, since she
apparantly spoke about getting someone before she even got in her car.
Let's hope so.  Of course, the laws of her state would be different.

Oh, one other point.  I believe in NYS, 1st degree murder can only be used
if someone kills a police officer.
-- 
Russell Jaslow         |Spec Racer #33 Finger Lakes Reg|NY RANGERS|My employer
Eastman Kodak Company  |In memorium: Andrew Spiller,   |and the   |has nothing
Rochester, New York    |Cynthia Bishop Halstead.  Keep |Cup! This |to do with
jaslow@bissun.kodak.com|the damn drunks off our roads! |year....  |my drivel.
From: goodman@cats.ucsc.edu (Ron C Goodman)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
Subject: How do you ride in powerful wind?
Date: 23 Jan 1993 04:57:04 GMT
Organization: University of California; Santa Cruz
NNTP-Posting-Host: si.ucsc.edu


As a non car-owning bicyclist, I ride in pretty much any weather conditions.
But to be honest, here in Santa Cruz, the range of weather conditions is
usually pretty favorable to cycling.

However, the past few days we have had rain accompanied with fairly strong
and gusty winds in the evening.  I was riding slowly down a long hill and found
it quite difficult to maintain balance on the slippery road when a gust
of wind hit.  I felt even less comfortable since it was dark and foggy and I
envisioned slipping onto the road and being smooshed by a car.

Are there techniques to riding succesfully in these kinds of conditions?

-Ron Goodman
goodman@cats.ucsc.edu
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
From: slb@heidi.acc.Virginia.EDU (sandy)
Subject: Re: Crazy and incompetent drivers. (Was: Punishment for the Driver!)
Organization: University of Virginia
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 00:25:15 GMT

In article <1k1m1dINN64t@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>, kipper@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Kip Ingram) writes:

|> I'm sure one could plot a histogram of number of swerves as a function of how
|> far offroad the swerve takes the car.  The further to the right of the white
|> line you check, the few cars will encroach on that area.  Before anyone argues,
|> more cars place their tire 6 inches outside the line than do 5 feet.  Period.
|> 
|> The further to the right of the white line I can get, the less likely I am to
|> be hit.  I've got an open mind, but it will take a lot to convince me that 
|> that isn't true.  


Thing is, these swerves don't occur randomly.  _Most_ drivers can
steer a reasonably straight line when they have to - when they are
trying to.  So, when they are paying attention and see there is
an object in the right-hand portion of the lane, they are able
to avoid it.  It's when they are not paying attention - when they
see you but don't _SEE_ you that they allow the car to drift out
of the lane.  Drivers see things in their line of travel  - other
things they filter out as noise.  You have to do this to some 
degree in order to be able to drive, but some drivers take this
to extremes.  At any rate,  if you are where a driver could expect
to see another car, you have a much higher chance of being seen
(or _SEEN_), and so, of being avoided.  The most common line from
a motorist after a car-bike collision is "But I NEVER SAW him/her."

-- 
sandy bryant
slb@virginia.edu
From: plutchak@pilsner.geo.brown.edu (Joel Plutchak)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
Subject: Re: Car intentionally runs down cyclists!
Date: 25 Jan 1993 18:58:54 GMT
Organization: Brown University Planetary Geology
NNTP-Posting-Host: pilsner.geo.brown.edu

In article <19975@mindlink.bc.ca> Richard_Hennick@mindlink.bc.ca (Richard Hennick) writes:
>This incident has convinced me to spend some time checking how difficult it
>is to take a license away from "loonies" up here, too.

   Taking the license away is the easy part.  Enforcing it is a bit
more difficult.

>And I hope this case will compel a review of the "right to drive" in the
>States.  (It's in the Constitution, isn't it?)

   Actually, the Constitution only directly addresses the right to
drive 18-wheelers.
--
Joel Plutchak, Research Programmer/Analyst
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
From: david@postman.gr.osf.org (David George)
Subject: Re: Crazy and incompetent drivers. (Was: Punishment for the Driver!)
Organization: OSF RI Grenoble
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 15:11:09 GMT

In article <1993Jan23.005508.24326@adobe.com>, zstern@adobe.com (Zalman Stern) writes:
|> It seems the place where Linda Scates committed this murder had a pretty  
|> good bike lane. I lump this in the same category as people walking into  
|> consumer electronics stores, pulling out semi-automatic weapons and blowing  
|> away a bunch of customers.

|> Past cases in the Bay Area have resulted in light penalties for  
|> drivers murdering/maiming bicyclists. (The guy who ran over Mark Anolick and  
|> the woman who ran down four cyclists while fishing for a cassette come to  
|> mind.) I'm open to suggestions on what the cycling community can do about  
|> this.

Yeah, I would liken this to walking into McDonalds wearing a blindfold with a
nail gun and wasting a load of customers, I can't see the difference between
careless misuse of one tool and another.  However you can bet in the nail gun
case there would be none of this agonizing by the CHP over whether it could be
'accidental' or not.

David.

Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
From: gdsomerv@eos.ncsu.edu (GARTH D SOMERVILLE)
Subject: Re: An undesirable consequence of mandatory helmets
Originator: gdsomerv@c00764-135wl.eos.ncsu.edu
Reply-To: somerville@bae.ncsu.edu (Garth Somerville)
Organization: North Carolina State University, Project Eos
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 12:25:43 GMT


In article <alanf.727682176@bruce.cs.monash.edu.au>, alanf@cs.monash.edu.au (Alan Grant Finlay) writes:
|>Australia has mandatory bicycle helmet laws.  I would like to share with you
|>another consequence besides the much mentioned reduction in the number of bike
|>users.
|>
|>I have noticed that drivers behave more aggressively towards riders without
|>a helmet.  I have been a passenger with drivers who do this and their
|>justification is "he should be wearing a helmet".

I don't question your experience, but I'm not sure the generalization
is always correct.  I recall several months ago a few motorists posting
here who expressed the opposite view.

|>
|>Perhaps the threat is that they have to take more care because the cyclist is
|>more vulnerable without a helmet.  That implies that helmets encourage drivers
|>to take more risks near cyclists than they otherwise would!

At least one poster reasoned that the cyclist without a helmet must
be more competent than the ones who feel they need to wear one, and 
claimed to drive accordingly.

I wouldn't let any assumptions about motorists' perceptions of helmets
play a big role in any decision to wear one or not.
-- 
Garth Somerville
somerville@bae.ncsu.edu
gdsomerv@eos.ncsu.edu
From: kruemp@hpcc01.corp.hp.com (John Kruempelstaedter)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 21:01:15 GMT
Subject: Update: Driver Runs Down Cyclists
Organization: the HP Corporate notes server
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc

This was in today's paper (San Jose Merc. News)
I'm going from memory so some of the facts may 
be a little off. (1/21)

This is an update to the lady who ran down the 
6 cyclist in Contra Costa County last weekend.

The driver is now being held without bail and
is now charged with 1 count of murder, 1 count
of felony hit and run, and 6 counts of 
assault with a deadly weapon.

The article said that she had a history this
type of activity.  One time she chased somebody
with a pick ax and another time she used her car
and attempted to run over some people. Apparently,
she has had some form of psychiactric care for
the two previous incident.

Just an update...
Newsgroups: aus.bicycles,rec.bicycles.soc
From: logier@cheops.qld.tne.oz.au (Rob Logie)
Subject: State Premier starts commuting to work
Summary: QLD State premier starts commuting to work.
Organization: Telecom Australia, TNE Computer Support Services
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1993 09:22:27 GMT

Announced in todays paper is that Wayne Goss, the Premier of Queensland
Australia, has started to commute to work on a regular basis by bike.

He travels about 20 KM each way.  Apparently, his fellow politicians are 
very concerned about the risk to his health !!. (Maybe they should do 
something about bike lanes etc  to improve bike safty!!)
(BTW a State Premier is roughly the same as a State Governor in the USA !!).

I travel the same route as him for about 10 KM.  Maybe I'll get a bike lane,
or if  I ride at the same time as him, a police escort yet !!


It is great to see politicans getting involved in cycling .

It will also be of interest to see how long he lasts !.o



-- 
Rob Logie                         | The opions expressed are mine alone and in
Telecom Australia ACN 051 775 556 | no-way reflect the views or policies of the
TNE Computer Support Services     | Australian and Overseas Telecommunications
EMAIL: logier@cheops.qld.tne.oz.au| Corporation. "These are my opinions alone"
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
From: robinsmm@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (ROBINSON MARYBETH)
Subject:  Scary bumper sticker
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 18:09:58 GMT


My roommate saw a very scary bumper sticker last night -- one that makes
you really think given recent events in California.  It said:

			I hit road cyclists

Watch out, people.  There're loonies everywhere!

mb
.


-- 
MaryBeth (MB) Robinson    		robinsmm@ucsu.Colorado.edu
Department of Chemistry
University of Colorado
From: apm@hpopdlau.pwd.hp.com (Andrew Merritt)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
Subject: Re: Calling Hewlett-Packard bike commuters
Date: 22 Jan 93 13:16:52
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, CCSY Messaging Centre, UK
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: hpopdlau.pwd.hp.com
In-reply-to: bm@bike2work.Eng.Sun.COM's message of 21 Jan 1993 21:11:04 GMT

In article <llu4b8INN5bu@exodus.Eng.Sun.COM> bm@bike2work.Eng.Sun.COM (Bill Michel) writes:


>   Hewlett-Packard's corporate staff is creating a bicycle commuting 
>   encouragement/incentives program and would like suggestions and 
>   assistance from any commuting cyclists who work for any part of 
>   Hewlett-Packard.

>   Contact Diana McGrogan at HP corporate headquarters in Palo Alto, 
>   415-857-3031.

>   /John
>   jciccare@signum.mv.us.adobe.com
I'm curious as to why this message was posted by two people outside HP, and
not by someone within, to one of the HP internal groups.

That said, I shall follow up and see if HP really is interested in cycling
commuters in 'any part' of HP.

Andrew
--
----
Andrew Merritt (Unix mail: apm@hpopd.pwd.hp.com) 
	       (phone: +44 344 763152  HPDESK/OpenMail: Andy Merritt/HP1600/LB)
	       (X.400: C=GB;AD=GOLD 400;PD=HP;OU1=Pinewood;SN=Merritt;GN=Andy)
From: robishaw@asteroid.lrmsc.loral.com (Gary Robishaw x5960)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
Subject: Re: Car intentionally runs down cyclists!
Date: 22 Jan 93 17:59:20 GMT
Organization: Loral Rolm Mil-Spec Computers

Motorists are taking quite a bashing here lately. Let us not forget that
incidents of this nature are extremely rare, thank God. Most of our run-ins
with cars are caused by one or both parties having their attention directed
elsewhere.

I believe that most motorists I encounter on the road are at least tolerant
of my presence, if not supportive. In fact, it seems to me that since this
incident occurred, the motorists on my commute are taking greater care than
they did before.

As an aside, someone called this "a cyclists worst nightmare". It probably is
for most, but for me, it's having a collision with another cyclist while I'm
driving in my car.

Gary
-- 
Gary Robishaw          "He has a constitutional right to be not guilty."
robishaw@monolith.lrmsc.loral.com       Steven Barrucci after John Gotti's
408/432-5960                          sentencing.
Usnail -- 3151 Zanker Rd. San Jose, Ca. 95134-1928
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
From: jciccare@adobe.com (John Ciccarelli)
Subject: Re: Crazy and incompetent drivers
Reply-To: jciccare@adobe.com (John Ciccarelli)
Organization: Adobe Systems, Mountain View, CA
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 21:09:20 GMT

In article <1993Jan26.194645.6757@adobe.com> zstern@adobe.com (Zalman Stern) writes:
>
>I still haven't seen much discussion of what cyclists can do to convince the  
>police to properly prosecute drivers who kill (either through malice or  
>negligence). Are we really that politically powerless?

IMHO, it has less to do with cyclists' political power than with the fact 
that cars -- and all the hidden costs and awesome carnage that comes with 
the package -- are just accepted reality.  People -- judges included --
don't see how it could be otherwise, and until that paradigm is replaced 
(if ever), drivers who kill will get off with far lighter sentences than
if they had achieved the same results, with or without malice aforethought,
with a *recognized* weapon.  

About as many people die in the US each year from auto accidents (40-50K)
as died in the entire Vietnam war.  Something like half of those are 
alcohol-related crashes.  Yet there is no nationwide outcry, MADD excepted.
It's not this way in Japan -- you lose face, big-time, so very few drive
drunk.  There are "white gloves" chauffers who'll drive you and your
tipsy pals home -- in your car -- and their business is booming (another
car follows you home and picks up the driver).

As for how to change all this, the only thing that comes to mind is to
show up in court and bring the media...

/John


-- 
John Ciccarelli           Adobe Systems,  1585 Charleston |    _~C      __C
jciccare@mv.us.adobe.com  Mountain View CA USA 94039-7900 |  ='\<,    ='\<,
uunet!adobe!jciccare      415/962-6677,  fax:415/903-0584 | (&)/(\)  (&)/(\)
=== "If you live within 7 miles of your job, why drive?" === BIKE TO WORK ==
From: byer@adobe.com (Scott Byer)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
Subject: Re: Tri-bar safety
Date: 25 Jan 93 19:24:01 GMT
Reply-To: byer@adobe.com (Scott Byer)
Distribution: na
Organization: Adobe Systems Incorporated

John - Forester writes

>    I am trying to learn of the safety aspects of using tri-bars.
> The first time that I conducted a class in which tri-bars were used
> (some time ago) I had to prohibit the cyclists who had them from
> using them in the group because those tri-bars in use had no brake
> levers on them. Therefore the riders could not avoid running into
> the rider ahead when the group slowed down or the rider got going
> too fast. I have since seen some tri-bars with brake levers, but
> I don't know whether the bikes that carry these also have brake
> levers in the normal place. If so, what is the mechanism for linking
> the action? I have also heard of a rider who, using a tri-bar on
> a gentle descent, reached down to change to a higher gear and
> experienced uncontrollable oscillations. Is this a frequent effect,
> and what is its cause, if anyone knows?

I have had aero bars on my commuting bike for over a year now, and
I'm considering their removal for several reasons.

I put them on originally because the position is more comfortable.
They don't interfere with any equipment (lights, cabling), so I've
left them on.  I haven't been using them much as of late, and there
are several reasons.

- Time to brake.  I don't have brake levers on them, and so it's
an extra half-second to move one hand to begin braking.  In an
emergency situation, it would be nearly impossible to get both
hands down to use the brake in a short period of time.  Considering
this, I don't use the bars along sections of road where there are
hidden driveways or frequent intersections.

- Road quality.  The position on the aero bars tends to exxagerate
steering movements slightly.  While I have learned to compensate
in most situations (looking back, sharp turns) I haven't been able
to completely compensate for a rough road.  The recent "improvements"
along Shoreline (moving electrical cabling underground) tore up
the bike lane (so that's why they put bike lanes in!), and PG&E
never properly repaired the trenches, leaving lumpy asphalt in
place.  This is ridable, but takes enough extra effort when on the
aero bars that it is no longer more comfortable.

- Signalling.  It is harder for me when in the aero position to
compensate for the sudden weight shift on the bars.  It takes a
little more effort to stay straight.

Nothing significant, all marginal.  But enough to take away from
the original reason for installing them on a commute bike.  I'm
saving up for a recumbant instead...

--
Scott Byer                             NeXTMail: byer@mv.us.adobe.com
Adobe Systems Incorporated               These are *my* opinions, and  
1585 Charleston Road, P.O. Box 7900        do not necessarily reflect
Mountain View, CA 94039-7900             the opinions of my employer.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
From: ehouse@Apple.COM (Eric House)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
Subject: Re: Car intentionally runs down cyclists!
Date: 25 Jan 93 17:14:12 GMT
Organization: Apple Computer Inc, Cupertino, CA

I went riding in Contra Costa County yesterday with a couple of members
of my bike club (Western Wheelers).  We went within a few miles of where
this incident took place.

Maybe it was a bad day, but I wasn't impressed either with the skill of
the average driver in that area or with their attitude towards cyclists.
(All of us are very experienced riders, averaging over 10,000 miles/year.
We know how to ride in traffic with minimal interferance to autos when we can.)
I commented then that I hoped what's-her-name's jury wouldn't consist of
the types brushing within inches of our handlebars or passing over the
double yellow on blind curves.

The point is that it wouldn't take a brilliant defence attorney to convince
a jury of her cager peers that the dead and maimed cyclist had it coming.
I'm not really optimistic about the outcome of this case.
-- 
****************************************************************************
Eric House			"My employer doesn't share its opinions with
RAAM in '93?		   	 me, so I can share only mine with you"
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
From: RONEAL@lexmark.com (Randy O'Neal)
Subject: Re: Tri-bar safety
X-Disclaimer: These views are the poster's and not necessarily those of Lexmark
Organization: Lexmark International, Lexington, KY
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 13:19:45 GMT

In article <1993Jan27.014713.2877@leland.Stanford.EDU>
sjlt@leland.Stanford.EDU (Sean Lev-Tov) writes:
 
>
>In article <16B62A25B.RONEAL@lexmark.com> RONEAL@lexmark.com (Randy O'Neal) writes:
>
>>I have a pair of Scott DH Aerobars.  The first time I rode with them...
>>
>>The effect however is that the aero brake is much stronger than
>>the main brake.  I have not added a similar lever for the front brake as
>>this seems to be more than adequate.  Complaints that I have heard are
>>lower response from the main lever and cable return being hampered by the
>
>If you reversed the order of the 2 brake levers with respect to threading
>the cable through them, would you get stronger braking in the original
>lever?  This assumes that such a rerouting of the cable is possible.
 
I considered this, but abandoned the idea quickly.  The primary brake
levers are the aero-type levers, cables routed to the bars inside the
lever housing.  I routed this up to just short of the bar bridge under
handlebar tape, then looped it out and through the back side of a non-
aero brake lever and through this back under the tape to the stem.  If
I went the other way, I believe I'd have to sacrifice the main aero brake
lever.  As I *really* rely upon riding with my palms on or around the
brake lever hoods, this would make things difficult.  Ideally, if you
could somehow route the lever with the cables routing reversed, it would
be better IMHO since your strongest brakes would be on the main lever.
However, since this is headed to the rear brake anyway, it's not really
all that bad.
 
I have seen the cables routed the other way in the back of Triathelete
Magazine with non-aero levers; it probably works fine.  I'm just not
willing to give up the hand positions, which I consider some of the best
for climbing (especially with the Scott DH bars).
 
 
Randy O'Neal                         "The above views are mine alone,
RONEAL@lexmark.com                    though they can be yours too for
Printer Attach Software Development   a nominal fee..."            __o
Lexmark International, Inc.                                       `\<,
Lexington, Ky.                                                    O/ O
 
Jenning's Corollary:                                                           
     The chance of the bread falling with the buttered side down
     is directly proportional to the cost of the carpet.