From: mbb@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (martin.brilliant)
Subject: Re: RE:  Christian nudes
Organization: AT&T
Distribution: na
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 21:01:17 GMT

From article <1der1lINNmgv@darkstar.UCSC.EDU>, by gchatham@cats.ucsc.edu (Gregory Chatham):
> ....
> 
> What I DID mean:  lust = sin

I have to wonder about that.  What is lust?  A desire to have sex?  Is
that sin?

Where would we be if no one had a desire to have sex?  Most of us never
would have been born.  I suppose some people might grudgingly engage in
sex out of a sense of duty to have children, but most people would find
more pleasant things to do.

Lust - desire to have sex - is how a species survives.

>     If nudity, or type of clothing (someone mentioned bathing suits) tends
>     to make some people lust (I am hoping we can take this as a given),

I wonder about that too.  Many things can arouse lust other than
clothing or lack of it.  Human beauty - sexual attractiveness - can be
brought out in other ways.

>     then I have to wonder about some "nude experiences" which involve many
>     "gawkers", and the like.  I AM NOT saying that the people going nude are
>     sinning because they are going nude.  I AM saying that other people may
>     sin because of it.  THIS is what I believe is wrong.  (see Rom 14:21 --
>     "It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor do anything that
>     causes your brother to stumble...")

The gawkers - what are they staring at?  Are they overcome with lust,
or just curiosity?  Are they moved to grab some of it, or are they
just looking at something they haven't seen enough of in their lives?

Your writer loses credibility by the rest of the prohibitions.
Nothing is wrong with eating flesh in moderation, and wine, also in
moderation, is one of the marvels of man working with nature.  I even
recall that a Nazarene born in Bethlehem is said to have gone to a
wedding where the wine had run out, and saved the day.

If I show my naked body, or some woman shows me her naked body, it does
not cause anyone to stumble, any more than if I leave my car unlocked
that causes someone to steal it.

> What I STILL DON'T MEAN:
>     That one should lock themselves in a closet, so as to keep everyone's
>     heart pure....

You do not propose that we keep ourselves hidden or ugly so that no
one will want to have sex with us.  Human beauty is a necessary part
of the mating process.  Couples mate because they love one another,
and they must see one another to love.  I don't insist that you must
see your prospective mate's body naked before marriage - if that
bothers you - but you must see into that person before marriage.  You
must wish not only to live with that person, but to cohabitate.

And must I hide myself if I am married, because I am then not
available for mating?  Of course not.  I am an adult model of what the
unmarried young can look forward to either being, or being mated to.
No sense hiding myself.

And if I am too old - what's the problem?  Does my feeble body evoke
lust?  Who wants to have sex with a decrepit wreck?

>     ....  But I am saying that the concerns of those who havn't yet
>     reached your stage of "elightenment" concerning
>     the proper view of the body, need to be addressed.

The proper view of the body is that it is good for many things, and
sex is necessarily one of those things, but not the only one.

Lust is not sin.  Lust is good.  Lust is how we mate and create the
next generation.

Lusting instead of working, instead of loving, instead of helping -
that is sin.  But there are many other things you could also do
instead of working, loving, and helping, that are also sin.  Gluttony
is a sin if you eat instead of helping, working, and loving.  But
wanting to eat is now we survive from day to day.

You can't object to eating in moderation, because that's what keeps
you alive.  You might define gluttony as wanting to eat too much.
Then does displaying food in a food market or a restaurant cause
gluttony?  If sex is good, because it creates the next generation,
lust might be wanting sex too much.  Then does displaying your body
cause lust?  Or just moderate sexual desire?  Or no sexual desire
at all?

Appetite is good, gluttony is bad.  Some sexual desire is good, too
much is bad.  Don't be so hung up about sex!!!!

> The final word:
>     IMO: It would be better if nudists didn't reveal themselves
>     quite so fully to those who may sin because of it.

See all the arguments above: revealing yourself does not cause sin.

							Marty
marty@hoqaa.att.com		hoqaa!marty
Martin B. Brilliant		(Winnertech Corporation)