From: gst@gnosys.svle.ma.us (Gary S. Trujillo)
Subject: Re: Comments on the 2nd RFD: soc.culture.native
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 21:11:16 GMT

With all due respect, I find I must disagree with Jan on a number
of points:

In <1993Jan27.070128.10753@bagend.atl.ga.us> jan@bagend.atl.ga.us
	(Jan Isley) writes:

> gst@gnosys.svle.ma.us (Gary S. Trujillo) writes:
> >I would, however, like it if the format of the charter could be "prettied
> >up" a bit, but I'm sure Jan Isley can take care of that matter.

> Careful, I may pretty it up to my idea of the charter which I may be
> in a distinct minority of opinion about. :)  More on that in a bit.

I'm talking about *format*, not content - something more like making the
margins even and such.  I would expect that the charter would become an
article that makes its way into a periodically-posted "FAQ" (frequently-
asked questions) article.

> I have been following the charter discussion but I had decided to stay
> out of it.  But as my friends all know, I have a hard time staying out
> of things.  I think the charter discussion has graduated into a full
> blown mess.  It has become exactly the kind of discussion that I
> personally hope does not take place in the proposed new group.

I feel this characterization is seriously misrepresenting what has
taken place.  The dialogue has been, for the most part, fairly friendly,
and the issues brought out are very important ones, IMHO.

> I think that soc.culture.native is the very best name available.  The
> name of the newsgroup is the only charter the overwhelming majority of
> readers will ever see, period.  The most scholarly written charter will
> have little or no effect on the newsgroup after it is created unless
> the newsgroup is dominated by net police waiting to pounce on anyone
> that posts an article on a subject that does not conform to someone's
> ideal politically correct charter.

As I said, I would expect the charter to be posted to the new newsgroup
periodically, either by itself or as part of a FAQ article, giving people
a periodic reminder of how we have agreed we want to use the newsgroup.
If there is dissent from the original vision later, we can always re-open
the question and even amend the charter.  I'm sure that such a thing would
sound unnecessary and even counter-productive to some, but I think that
these questions of identity can be very very important, since they convey
a basic sense of who and what we are, which is the kind of question that
humans find very important and basic.

> For instance, I think that the positioning over words describing who
                                 ^^^^^^^^^^^
> qualifies as a native, in this discussion or the current discussion
> in alt.native, is counterproductive and does not belong in *my* idea
> of soc.culture.native.

Perhaps the word Jan is looking for here is "posturing."

> To go further out on this limb I am on and
> jump up and down on it a bit, with a straight face, I will suggest to
> you all that there is *no* people *anywhere* who are the original
> inhabitants.  The original inhabitants and their cultures are all long
> gone everywhere.  However, humans are recent (and perhaps temporary)
> events in the life of this planet that take themselves far too seriously.

This view vastly oversimplifies the situation, IMHO.  One *can* talk with
meaning about a culture as having a life of its own, independent of the
individual people who comprise it at any given point in historical time.

I think for this exercise to become less abstract, it might be necessary
for a person to imagine him or herself standing on a continent in the
midst of landmarks and other features of terrain that one knows one's
ancestors saw and knew as parts of their familiar world.  I think it is
possible, in an almost mystical sense, to connect with those ancestors,
and to realize that they and we are one people - that we form part of
a fabric - a fabric that to many of us seems to have become torn and
damaged.

To claim to be the "First Peoples" of a place is not something one may
be able to easily understand in an ordinary state of consciousness, in
fact.  It comes from knowing that one *is* in fact related in ethnic
and cultural ways to a people extending in space and in time.  I am
not advocating the nationalistic or racial fervor that sometimes can
develop based on such a sense, and lament the warfare that can result.
But I don't think that raising the subject must inevitably result in
such caustic and even violent disagreements.  In fact, I am idealistic
enough to feel that the different peoples of the world can not only
have sufficient energy to understand who they are as distinct peoples,
but can also work toward creating a world in which people can labor
together, learning from one another, and delighting in the differences
we find in one another which comes from such things as race and culture.

> The point is that there are people out there who think that they are
> of a native culuture regardless of how native I think they may be.
> I would like to hear from them.  I would like to hear about them.  I
> would like to know more about their history and culture, and how they
> are dealing with the here-and-now.

As would I and many others.  I don't know that the most important for
us to discuss is *who* is "native" according to some pre-fabricated
definition, but I don't feel that the concept is compeletely without
meaning.  Part of the "here-and-now" must always be related to a sense
of how we got here and who we are; you cannot really separate the two
ideas without losing a whole lot of meaning.

> So, all of this rambling means that if I were to write a charter it
> would be very short.  Something like...

Let's not open another "can of worms."  I agree with Jan's earlier
decision to remain neutral in the discussion.  Now let's get on with
the vote

> Now, having changed my mind long enough to render my opinion, I will
> once again retreat from this discussion and wait to cast my yes vote.

Me too.

> peace

Amen.

Gary
--
    Gary S. Trujillo                            gst@gnosys.svle.ma.us
Somerville, Massachusetts              {wjh12,bu.edu,spdcc,ima,cdp}!gnosys!gst