From: davidba@carmel.technion.ac.il (David Ben_Ami)
Subject: Re: Israel and Kuwait in the Spotlight
Organization: Technion, Israel Inst. of Technology
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1992 19:01:18 GMT

In article <1992Sep11.232315.29424@dscomsf.desy.de> Hallam@zeus02.desy.de writes:
>In article <1992Sep11.090154.13381@discus.technion.ac.il>,
>davidba@carmel.technion.ac.il (David Ben_Ami) writes:
>
>|>In article <EGGERTJ.92Sep10221531@moses.atc.ll.mit.edu> eggertj@atc.ll.mit.edu
>|>writes:
>|>>In article <1992Sep10.183041.26418@discus.technion.ac.il>
>|>davidba@carmel.technion.ac.il (David Ben_Ami) writes:
>
>|>>On the other hand, it _is_ illegal in Israel to form a political party
>|>>which has a plank to remove the Zionist nature of the government.
>|>>This would be possible by simple constitutional amendment, I believe.
>|>>
>|>
>|>The Zionist (the precise term is Jewish) nature of the country is the
>|>raison d'etre of Israel even before Democracy. Denying it is same as
>|>denying the existence of Israel - this is of course forbidden.
>
>That is precisely the point at issue. In a democracy where everyone is equal
>there can be no laws supporting cultural hegemony. All this "we are a democracy
>BUT..." business just doesen't wash. You can fool yourself about it but you
>won't fool anyone else.
>
>In fact it is of course perfectly practicable to set up a party with such an
>aim. Merely make it a stated aim of the party to institute a written
>constitution, to be agreed at a constitutional convention and deliberately leave
>vague the question of special treatment.
>
>Alternatively it would be perfectly legal to set up a party which wanted to
>remove the law making parties wanting to change the Zionist nature of the
>state.
>
>Even if these positions were blocked it would be perfectly legal to form a party
>which called for an annual vote *IN FAVOUR* of the maintenance of the special
>nature of Israel as a Zionist state. Of course were such a vote to fail then it
>would be equivalent to a vote in the opposite direction.
>
>At the end of the day anyone who thinks that constitutional trickery is going to
>be much of a safeguard is quite wrong. Constitutions are only effective if they
>have the poltical support of the establishment and people. If the US people
>stopped believing that their constitution was the greatest thing since sliced
>bread the executive would effectively abolish it in short order.

Of course, if most Israelis will be foolish enough to abandon this principle 
No formal obstacle can prevent them from changing it - since that will
be the end of Israel nothing matters after that step.

You can argue that the Weimar republic shouldn't have stopped the Nazis
who strived to eliminate it and did so, so did the formulators of the
Weimar constitution for reasons ver=y like youyr own. the Result
(Hitler) of this naivette and righteousness is horrible.

You tell me that a full scale salughter of Jews is not neccessarily the
outcome of abandoning Zionism - well that doesn't comfort me. I prefer
worst-case analysis in these matters.

>
>|>>Jews get to advocate Jewish hegemony in Israel.
>|>>Arabs don't even get to advocate the breakdown of Jewish hegemony in
>|>>Israel.  They certainly don't get to advocate Arab hegemony in Israel.
>|>>
>|>>You call that full rights?
>|>
>|>Arab hegemony in Isarel == Jews in the sea. (or at least those who came
>|>afetr 1917 - according to the pitiful Arafat).
>|>
>|>Jews prefer their lives over theoretical equality!
>|>
>|>This is not the Arab's right to kill the Jew, as it is not the Jew's
>|>to kill the Arab.
>
>Introducing such histrionics into the debate hardly constitutes an argument.
>
>Claiming that all Arabs want to kill all Jews is pretty much tantamount to
>racism.

well, you of course missed the point --> I agree that slaughter of Jews
is not the only possible outcome of this suggestion (It doesn't take
that all the arabs are killing jews to form a major threat on Israel -
it's quite enough that a group of zealots: Hamas or Arafat pick your
favorite will do it - all the others will not weep too long).

I think it is one very likely outcome, others are Utopyan peace and
pleasant coexistence. I just don't want to take the risk and play
games with my future only because it might all be ok after all.

David.

>
>--
>
>Phill Hallam-Baker


-- 
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  David Ben-Ami (irc: bigdav)      |   "I can resist anything but Temptation"
  s2780369@Techst02.Technion.Ac.Il |       Oscar Wilde
  davidba@Carmel.Technion.Ac.Il  davidba@Moav.Techniona.Ac.Il
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