HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: dencisco@eos.arc.nasa.gov (David Paul Encisco)
Subject: Re: Abbey bashing. Was: Trip rpt: SE Utah 4wd vacation, part 3/4
Organization: NASA Ames Research Center
Distribution: na
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 17:28:24 GMT

helmuthn@bcstec.ca.boeing.com (Helmuth Naumer) writes:

>In article <1992Nov10.185820.25091@news.uiowa.edu> donath@herky.cs.uiowa.edu (Matt Donath) writes:

>>If I had the book in front of me I could easily go on and on about the
>>mass of contradictions and the many ignominious things he does in this
>>book.  I remember being sorely disappointed in it.  In fact, about the
>>only thing I agreed with Abbey on was his dislike of cars in the
>>National Parks.

>You have stumbled onto something....
>Desert Solitaire was not written for you it was written about you :-).

>Abbey is also Witty and Combative; he attacks Everyone (including The
>Logical and the Environmental) with Sarcasm and Symbolism.  Therefore,
>if he doesn't piss you off, you must be a vegetable.

Okay I've held out long enough. I find his writing self-indulgent,
pugnacious, and egotistical. Not that these attributes make for a
bad writer, but for Abbey it inspires his proselytized writing style
to the point of absurdness. You just want to scream, "okay I get it
already let's move on!" His contradictions just add to the smug persona
that he conveys in his writing.

>I think Abbey would 
>argue that his action is nothing in comparison to the Rape of Damn Builders 
>and Oil Drillers, and that any one who attacks him for his actions is petty 
>and should be spending their efforts on the real monsters.  Actually, he
>wouldn't argue at all, he would just find something that you are involved in
>which is just as bad (No one is pure in this world <and Abbey admits his
>is not>).

With making the equal blunder of putting words in his mouth, I agree!
And the argument is unconstructive and childish. Also it's the tributaries
that determine the flow of the river.

>And Finally, if you don't like his books, I think he could care less.
>So.....What is the point? To criticize people who like his prose??
>Sounds like something to do I guess...of course there are those Oil
>Companies out there.....

Or we could be criticizing the criticizers and creating a circular
argument for ourselves...
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: kochte@stsci.edu
Subject: Re: Rainbow Gathering
Organization: Space Telescope Science Institute
Distribution: na
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1992 18:23:11 GMT

Pleading very high levels of ignorance here, but....
....who are the Rainbow? I had originally thought
a Rainbow Gathering was a bunch of rainbows getting
together for a spectral time, but have inferred other-
wise since then.

Who, or what, are the Rainbow?

Expiring minds want to know...
Mark
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: sheehan@pagosa.scd.ucar.edu (Tim Sheehan)
Subject: Re: help on purchasing a backpack
Organization: NCAR/UCAR
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1992 22:52:08 GMT

The best advice on what type of pack to buy is get the one that
works best for you. Make sure you take into account comfort,
durability, capacity, the activity you will be using it for, and
price. If possible, ignore price.

Some people will tell you that an internal frame pack is better
than an external, while others will tell you the exact oposite. In
actuality, they are telling you what is best for them. For me, that's
an external frame Kelty because it fits me well and lets me put 
virtually all of the weight on my hips.

When my girlfriend (about 5' 6", 110 lbs) went on her first 
backpacking trip, she was going to use my old Kelty, a medium 
sized pack, and I was going to use a large EMS pack that I borrowed 
from a friend of mine (he is about 6' 2" and 165 lbs.). I (6' 0",
140 lbs.) put on my friends pack and found it uncomfortable. My
girlfriend put on the Kelty and found it very uncomfortable. So, we 
traded packs.

I carried the smaller Kelty pack and was happy and comfortable for
the whole trip. She carried the large EMS pack and, likewise, it
was comfortable for her.

After that trip, I went with her when she bought a pack. We went to
REI and EMS. She tried on many sizes of many models of both internal
and external frame packs. She bought the exact same model and size
of pack as the one she wore on the first trip. To look at her with
that huge pack on her small body, you wouldn't believe it could be
comfortable, but out of the many packs she tried out, that one 
worked best for her.

So, when buying a pack, listen to others but decide for yourself.
-- 
-Tim-

sheehan@ncar.ucar.edu

Xref: sparky rec.backcountry:8784 rec.climbing:4328 rec.skiing:7362
From: greg@antizen.EBay.Sun.COM
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry,rec.climbing,rec.skiing
Subject: Wilderness First Aid
Date: 11 Nov 1992 00:50:35 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Distribution: ca
Reply-To: greg@antizen.EBay.Sun.COM
NNTP-Posting-Host: antizen.ebay.sun.com

Earthbound Medical Rescue is the current Wilderness Medicine training
contractor for the Department of the Interior, Geological Survey.

Earthbound is holding their winter session Wilderness Medicine class
and workshop on Dec. 5 & 6 at Alum Rock Park in San Jose, CA from 8:30 to 5:00. 
The cost is $100.00.

No prerequisite is required, however prior first-aid training is helpful.
Participants will be provided a list of pre-class study subjects.

A certificate of completion will be given upon completion of the class.
The curriculum is the same that is currently being taught to the field
personnel from the Geological Survey. The class will be a combination of 
lecture, demonstration and hands-on practicals and scenarios. This class 
is designed to provide participants with a focussed working knowledge and
skills in first-aid required to provide care for those injured or ill
hours or days away from communications with emergency medical services
or care by a physician.

Registration should be completed by Nov. 27th. Checks should be made 
payable to:

Earthbound Medical Rescue
390 N. 12th st.
San Jose, CA
95112

For further information call 408/275-9542.
From: jreece@sousa.intel.com (John Reece)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Death Valley
Date: 10 Nov 92 01:13:57 GMT
Reply-To: jreece@sousa.intel.com
Organization: Intel - Information Technologies

In article <1992Nov9.132645.13925@hou.amoco.com>, zrwv05@hou.amoco.com (Rod VanKoughnet) writes:
 
> I'm thinking of going to Death Valley over the New Year's Day weekend.
>              1.  Is this a good time of the year to go there?

It sure beats July.

>              2.  What temperature range should I expect?

It ought to be a chilly 80F in the daytime.

>              3.  Any hiking/camping suggestions?

A ski tour or hike, depending on snow conditions, to the top of 
Telescope or Wildrose Peak offers spectacular views.

It's a good time, temperature-wise, to do the Badwater-lowest point 
hike.   Under some conditions, however, one's feet can tend to punch
through the salt surface into the hyper-saline water table. This is very 
unpleasant.  

Be aware of the possiblity of flash floods.

-- 
John Reece			"This lifeboat is full"	
Not an Intel spokesman
From: johnf@Auspex.COM (John Fereira)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Fleece Jackets
Date: 9 Nov 92 20:54:05 GMT
Organization: Auspex Systems, Inc.

In article <BxFJGy.8Lq@ulowell.ulowell.edu> jrichard@bigmax.ulowell.edu (John 'MacGyver' Richardson) writes:
>I just recently bought a North Face fleece (300 wt) jacket.  

>Are there any detractions to this stuff?  It seems pretty durable,

Be careful when sitting around a campfire.  Embers will melt a hole in fleece
very quickly.

>in general the best 80 bucks I've spent on clothes in a long time!

A couple of years ago The Price Club had pullover fleece jackets for $22.  I
bought three of them in different colors.

-- 
+==========================================================================+
| John Fereira        | Auspex Systems | "Ask me about my vow of silence." |
| johnf@auspex.com    | Santa Clara CA |                                   |
+==========================================================================+
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Is Gore-Tex overrated ?
From: derek@nezsdc.icl.co.nz (Derek Tearne)
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 92 00:33:54 GMT
Organization: Fujitsu New Zealand

In article <DERAADT.92Nov4170646@newt.newt.cuc.ab.ca> deraadt@newt.cuc.ab.ca (Theo de Raadt) writes:
>In article <13773@texsun.Central.Sun.COM> dbernard@clesun.Central.Sun.COM (Dave Bernard) writes:
>>I think lots of people survived the ice age on mile-high glaciers without the
>>stuff.  On the other hand, many people love it.  You really want an argument,
 
>They were smart -- they stayed sheltered as much as they could, rather than
>venture to the tops of mountains. To sweat is to die. "For me" gortex makes
>this a bit less of a worry.

They also had clothing made of the ultimate breatheable material - 
animal skins!

I have a lightweight goretex coat and a (now unused) Peter Storm<tm> 
traditional nylon coat.  They are very similar in style and cut. Cycling 
in a summer rainstorm in Auckland in the Peter Storm resulted in great 
discomfort, overheating, profuse sweating and a horrid sticky feeling.  
Solution - The goretex coat which is an enormous improvement.
OK so I still sweat and get a little overheated but nothing like as bad.

Goretex isn't some miracle force field which protects you from the rain 
without any insulating effects.  It is a just like wearing an extra layer
of cotton clothing - two tee shirts instead of one.  Sure you are still
going to sweat - you just don't end up swimming in it.


-- 
Derek Tearne.   --   derek@nezsdc.icl.co.nz   --    Fujitsu New Zealand   -- 
Some of the more aware dinosaurs were worried about the environmental
consequences of an accident with the new Iridium enriched fusion reactor.  
"If it goes off only the cockroaches and mammals will survive..." they said.
From: mackinto@oasys.dt.navy.mil (David Mackintosh)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: GoreTex and bears
Date: 5 Nov 92 20:19:45 GMT
Article-I.D.: oasys.27211
Reply-To: mackinto@oasys.dt.navy.mil (David Mackintosh)
Organization: Carderock Division, NSWC, Bethesda, MD

In rec.backcountry, moynes_r@qis.dofasco.ca (Richard Moynes) writes:

>- GoreTex is waterproof (won't let water pass through).

>- Over 70% of a bear's mass is water.

>Therefore, shouldn't a GoreTex garment also protect the wearer from a bear
>attack?  ...

This is quite right except for the fact that although the complete bear
may be more than 70% water, the pointy parts (teeth and claws) are
probably less than 10% aqueous, renderring the GoreTex ineffectual
against penetration thereby.
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: stgprao@st.unocal.COM (Richard Ottolini)
Subject: Re: Death Valley
Organization: Unocal Corporation
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 17:21:37 GMT

The temperature can go down into the teens this time of year,
although it usually doesn't.  Two years ago water containers froze at Xmas time.
Wind can make it seem colder than it is.
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: jagrant@emr1.emr.ca (John Grant)
Subject: Re: help on purchasing a backpack
Organization: Energy, Mines, and Resources, Ottawa
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 06:01:17 GMT

In article <1992Nov5.022559.24326@PA.dec.com> klee@wsl.dec.com writes:
>|> Major advice a friend received at the North Face Outlet in Palo Alto:
>|> Don't check a backpack of any type at the airport "as is".  The airport
>|> conveyer belts are likely to eat your pack for lunch, or at least some part
>|> of it that you'd rather have intact.
>|> 
>|> Better idea:  buy a cheap duffle at Army/Navy surplus and put your pack in
>|> it.  Protects the pack, probably lowers the likelihood of theft, and you
>|> don't care if the cheap duffle gets bruised!

[stuff deleted]
>
>The problem with the duffle solution is that you have to do something
>with the duffle when you get off the plane.  Even cheap ones are heavy
>and bulky and you won't want to carry when backpacking.
>
[stuff deleted]

My solution is to use the heavy plastic bags provided by Air Canada (maybe
other airlines too?) for objects like skis, packs etc.  I just drop in my
pack, twist the top and tape it shut using the strong plastic tape provided
at the check-in counter.  The pack is easy to move, because it is slippery
in the bag and can be dragged or easily picked up by the plastic top.  Before
putting the pack inside, I attach at least 3 id tags to the straps etc of
the pack.  Then for good measure, I slap an id sticker on the outside of the
bag.

I know it's not as environmentally friendly as a duffel bag, but at
least I can just dispose of it when I reach my destination.
An alternative to disposal is to find a place to leave the duffel bag or
plastic bag so you can retrieve it for the trip home.  Of course this
assumes you are returning from the same town (usually the case as that is
the cheapest way to book flights).

John A. Grant
Geological Survey of Canada
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: micki@netcom.com (Michelle Stone)
Subject: Re: Lunches and Snacks: what do you bring?
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 05:07:11 GMT

tamada@cheshire.oxy.edu (Michael K. Tamada) writes:

>     Hmmm, I've always had trouble with bagels.  Sure, they're
>indestructible, and they've got decent shelf life.  But slicing
>them in half so I can put stuff on them is a pain.
>     I usually take hard rolls instead.  Not as indestructible, but
>easier to slice open.  

Ever thought of slicing them before you leave?

Michelle
From: diverson@phys.ksu.edu (David Iverson)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: gortex vs/ kevlar
Date: 11 Nov 1992 18:18:27 GMT
Organization: Kansas State University
NNTP-Posting-Host: pauli.phys.ksu.edu


I'm considering purchasing a new anorak and I was wondering what the
benifits and draw backs are between gortex and kevlar.

I guess gortex is better at stopping bears and rain. But how does it do
against bullets or grenades?

I guess kevlar is a good fabric to protect against shrapnel, but can it be
made to be breatheable and waterproof at the same time?  And is it worth the
extra weight?

What experiences have others had with these two materials?

-David Iverson

--
diverson@phys.ksu.edu
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: ummorea0@ccu.umanitoba.ca (Gene Moreau)
Subject: Re: Is Gore-Tex overrated ?
Organization: University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Canada
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 17:36:03 GMT


>>> IMHO This sums up the arguments for Goretex perfectly- if you want to
>>>be comfortable & can afford it then don't hesitate.
>>
>>> If the cost matters & you are looking for perfection to justify the
>>>expense then don't bother.
>>
>>If cost is a problem, then check out catalogs that cater to hunters,
>>specifically Cabella's.  The Goretex raingear I saw in there was
>>_much_ cheaper than what I have seen on _sale_ at outdoor outfitters

Well you may want to be wary of the _much_ cheaper Gore-tex jackets.  from
What I have heard and seenof these jackets the fabric is as water proof as 
Gortex gets, but it's the seems that you need to watch for.  If you are 
going to buy a jacket make sure that all the seems are factory heat taped.
This is why most "cheap" Gore jackets leak.  what good is a water proof jac
jacket if the seems leak??  Another thing I have heard and experienced is 
keep your jackect clean!!!  wash it before any trip and after you get back.
It won't work if it's dirty. 


-- 
Gene Moreau                 | "Morning comes far to early when it's cold
University of Mantitoba     |  outside and there is a maniac on the loose"
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada  |    - unknown
ummorea0@cuu.umanitoba.ca
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU (wayne trzyna)
Subject: Re: Abbey bashing. 
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 19:19:52 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Colorado State University, Computer Science Department

Careful: Knocking Abbey in rec.backcountry is like standing up in church and
shouting, "I hate Jesus."

> Rolls a tire into the Grand Canyon.

Those who grew up during this period in the western US understand
that every side canyon or gully had a tire rolled into it, if not
an entire car.  It was part of our culture and entertainment...
kind of like every side canyon now has a yuppie on a mountain bike
with a power-bar in his pocket.

Which of these causes more errosion?


-- 

-Wayne Trzyna
 trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU
From: tai@utpapa.ph.utexas.edu (Tai Morris)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Backpacking in New Mexico
Date: 9 Nov 92 06:34:12 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Physics Department, University of Texas at Austin

A group of us plan to do some backpacking and camping for a week in
mid-December. We're from Austin and so are limited by time (since we're
driving) to Texas or the adjacent states. The only place worth seeing
in Texas were Big Bend N.P. and Guadalupe N.P. and we've been there. 
New Mexico looks interesting and I'd love suggestions on where to go
there (or in Arkansas, Colorado, etc. for that matter). One of our member
has a knee that acts up under heavy climbing so I'd prefer a trail
listed as moderate, not strenuous.

Thanks. 
-- 
Tai Morris, tai@utpapa.ph.utexas.edu
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: carlj@hpcvmcdj.cv.hp.com (Carl Johnson)
Subject: Re: Lunches and Snacks: what do you bring?
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1992 05:38:25 GMT

tamada@cheshire.oxy.edu (Michael K. Tamada) writes:
:      Hmmm, I've always had trouble with bagels.  Sure, they're
: indestructible, and they've got decent shelf life.  But slicing
: them in half so I can put stuff on them is a pain.
:      I usually take hard rolls instead.  Not as indestructible, but
: easier to slice open.  
:      Several people have mentioned tortillas, which I've never tried
: on the trail, but it sounds like a good idea.

English Muffins also seem to work well, although I have just carried
them in a kayak and not hiking.
-- 

Carl Johnson              carlj@cv.hp.com
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: geldart@augustana.ab.ca
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Canadian Hikes
Date: 13 Nov 92 12:21:14 MST
Summary: Canadian Hikes     
Distribution: world
Organization: Augustana University College, Camrose, aAlberta

Obviously Canada has some wonderful places to have some great outdoor
adventures, but without paying $25.00 for a book on where to go and how
to get there, some of us find it to be a rather tiresome task to find good
hikes in Western Canada.  Does anyone out there know of a good, cheap source
of information in that regard.  Certainly "word of mouth" is a very cheap
source, but I don't have enough friends who are interested in that kind
of thing to get information that way.  If anyone out there can help it
would be greatly appreciated.
From: millard@acsu.buffalo.edu (Peter G. Millard)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Fleece Jackets
Date: 11 Nov 92 13:57:08 GMT
Organization: UB

kanazawa@cs.ubc.ca (Keiji Kanazawa) writes:


>Has anyone tried the new polarplus 1000 or 2000?  I've been wanting to
>buy a new fleece jacket, but I'm willing to wait a bit to see how well
>these so-called windproof versions work.
>--
>Keiji Kanazawa
>kanazawa@cs.ubc.ca

The store I work for just recieved in some test (read do anything we want in
an attempt to beat the h*ll out of them:) jackets made from the "wind-proof"
polarplus 1000. My overall impresions are that for a combo of windproofness 
and fleece, stick with the Patagonia design (nylon shell sewn to one side
of a normal fleece jkt). I think the new polarplus stuff is pretty windproof,
but upon using the jkt for various activities (other employees included) the
general consensous (sp?) was that the things are not very breathable. Thus,
it eliminates using them for the very activities they would be ideal for such
as Mtn Biking, climbing, running, etc. However, it may prove itself ideal 
for x-country skiing (if you can keep persperation down to a minimum). As we 
have yet to receive any snow accumulation, this has yet to be seen.

BTW for those that are not aware of this new polarplus line, the 1000 stuff 
consists of two layers of polartech 100 with a layer of what seems to be
some kind of coated nylon inbetween these layers. I have not heard nor seen
the 2000 series, but it probably replaces the 100 series w/ 200 series.

-- 
******************************************************************************
	Peter G. Millard  *  INTERNET: v057n5um@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu           
 	SUNY @ Buffalo    *          : millard@acsu.buffalo.edu
*****************************************************************************
From: jones@pyrite.cs.uiowa.edu (Douglas W. Jones,201H MLH,3193350740,3193382879)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: How does cheese keep (was Lunches and Snacks...)
Date: 5 Nov 92 21:37:51 GMT
Article-I.D.: news.1992Nov5.213751.12091
Organization: University of Iowa, Iowa City, IA, USA

From article <1dbqk3INN51t@moe.ksu.ksu.edu>, by diverson@phys.ksu.edu
(David Iverson):
> 
> How well does your cheese keep?

My family bought a cannon-ball of Gouda cheese (2 kilos?) when we were
driving through Gouda, and we threw it in the trunk of our VW, carving off
bits when we wanted cheese.  Keeping cheese in the trunk of a car while
traveling in the summer is not exactly the recommended place -- it does
get hot, but our ball of cheese didn't suffer noticably, except that the
wax sort of ran down the sides and puddled at the bottom.

We finished the ball of cheese over a period of about 10 days (it lasted
from Holland through Denmark and Norway and into Sweden.

					Doug Jones
					jones@cs.uiowa.edu
From: Dan Yurman <dyurman@igc.apc.org>
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Date: 09 Nov 92 05:34 PST
Subject: Re: GoreTex and bears
Nf-ID: #R:1992Nov5.100753.1@qis.dofasco.ca:-689489339:cdp:1449600050:000:952
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!dyurman    Nov  9 05:34:00 1992



----------------------------------------------------------------
Dan Yurman            | dyurman@igc.apc.org | Chance favors only
PO Box 1569           | MCI Mail: 364-1277  | the prepared mind.
Idaho Falls, ID 83403 | 43N28 112W02 -7 GMT | -- Louis Pasteur

In the discussion regarding bears v. gore text some correspondents
to this list have either ignored or deliberately overlooked the
fact that the bear is not aware of *which* part of his anatomy is
not in the 30% classes as non-aqueous.  Therefore, the bear
obviously must enter a state of aqueous-reality :-) <grin> when
attacking victims wearing gore-tex.  This allows the bear to "fly
the victim" -- sort of like JPL flies LA -- and using fractal
based analysis of the three dimensional solid, aka the victim,
chaotically disintegrates the non-aqueous portion of the prey.

In other words, anyone who stands around waiting wearing gore tex
in hoping of warding off bear attacks is all wet!

Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: micki@netcom.com (Michelle Stone)
Subject: Re: Lunches and Snacks: what do you bring?
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 05:04:20 GMT

corby@ssf-sys.DHL.COM (Corby Anderson) writes:
>members of the party (except the Life guy) put down their packs and
>casually reached inside and pulled out watermelons!  The Life guy ate it up
>(figuratively and literally) and managed to convince America that
>the really good hikers always carry watermelons: nature's perfect energy
>food!

>I considered trying it - going so far as to heft a melon in the supermarket
>before a trip - but I don't think I'd ever be able to make it!

When I am on a short trip (3 to 4 days) I like to sit down in my 
sling lite chair on the top of a peak and pull out a Diet Coke.  It
never ceases to amaze my hiking companions!

Michelle

BTW.  I'm looking for a new job.  Just got laid off.  I'm a software
manager.  Anybody have tips... please let me know!

Newsgroups: rec.backcountry