From: Michael.P.Colburn@dartmouth.edu (Michael P. Colburn)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Hobbits in the Undying Lands
Date: 28 Jan 93 01:49:36 GMT
 <1993Jan25.202454.20380@netcom.com> 
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 <1993Jan25.224634.25093@jupiter.sun.csd.unb.ca>  
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Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH
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In article <1k3qagINN7ab@digex.digex.com>
dzik@access.digex.com (Joseph Dzikiewicz) writes:

> In article <1993Jan25.224634.25093@jupiter.sun.csd.unb.ca> slogan@mta.ca writes:
> >
> > I can't back this up at the moment but as far as I was and have been 
> >concerned they, being Frodo and Sam were allowed to sail to the Undying 
> >lands as they had been bearers of the ring.
> 
> Yes, but this raises the question "allowed by whom?"
> 
> In the Silmarillion, death is Illuvatar's gift to men.  Even the Valar
> cannot take it from them.  

I disagree...see what I've written later on this.

> Does this mean that Illuvatar personally intervened to allow Frodo, Sam,
> and Bilbo to enter the Undying Lands?  Certainly it is beyond the
> authority of the Valar to grant this.

What does Illuvatar's gift to men (death) have to do with whether they
are allowed to go the Undying Lands?  The Undying Lands is just a
name...I don't believe that it means that all who live there have to be
immortal.  And one does not have to 'die' to go there.  True, men were
not allow to go there, but how do you figure it's because of
Illuvatar's gift?

> Also, note that this is a truly incredible gift, one not given to any
> of the heroes of the First Age.  (And I would think that, were it possible,
> Beren at least would have been granted the gift, if only as a gentler
> solution to Luthien's dilemna.)

Actually, I believe Beren was at the Halls of Mandos which are in
Valinor, at least temporarily (although I've often wondered why...do
all men 'stop' there before they pass out of the world?).  It was
Luthien who petitioned Mandos to release Beren from his doom and
returned them both to ME where they both lived out mortal lives.  It
would seem that Mandos has the power to at least temporarily delay
Illuvatar's gift, so it obviously wasn't beyond the Valar's powers to
'cheated' death, so to speak.

Also, I remember someone posting something regarding Mandos second
prophecy (from Lost Tales, perhaps?) in which it is said that in the
Final Battle after Melkor escapes from the void, Melkor is slain by
Turin Turambar, who I believe is human and had been dead for a few
ages...so it would appear that at least two people have 'spurned'
Illuvatar's gift, one more than temporarily.  I personally haven't read
this, but the poster claimed to have read this and I believe another
replied that he too had read this.
> 
> Finally, a question.  If the ringbearer had been a man instead of a
> hobbit, would he too have been granted admission to the Undying Lands?

I think you'll find many arguments that would indicate that hobbits ARE
men.  I believe on of the most convincing references is in the prologue
to LotR.

Mike Colburn                         =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Dartmouth-Hitchcock                  "Pulu-see-ba-goomba" -- Gilligan 
Medical Center                       =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Lebanon, New Hampshire  03756        :-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-)