From: hubey@pilot.njin.net (Hubey)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.europe
Subject: Re: Russian Speakers in Estonia
Date: 2 Jan 93 23:07:20 GMT
Followup-To: soc.culture.soviet
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

In article <1993Jan2.182011.142@cs.chalmers.se> tammet@cs.chalmers.se (Tanel Tammet) writes:


> I do suppose though, that the russian culture (not genes) is fairly
> expansionistic. Look on the map, investigate the mood of people, etc.
> If the government decides to expand the territory, most citizens
> have no objections. This specialty of russian culture started
> after they were conquered by tartars and survived, integrating
> the conquerors (now this last sentence is just my favourite
> hypotheses).

> Regards,
> 	Tanel Tammet


Excuse me but the above statements, even if they jive with
conventional wisdom/history, are a misrepresentation of 
history.

1. The Slavic expansions don't start with the Turco-Mongol-Tatar
conquests. They started about 1,000 years before. It started when
the Huns chased the Goths out of the present day Ukraine. The
original homeland of the Slavs was somewhere around the Pripet
marshes. The names of the rivers Don, Dniester and Dnieper come
from Iranian. AFter this date the Slavs start expanding into
south of the Carpathian mountains, south towards the Black 
Sea etc.

2. Of all the places that the Genghis-Khanids conquered, 
Muscovy was the least affected. It was not under direct rule
but at best was a vassal state, in contrast to other parts
in Central Asia, Iran, the Black Sea steppes and Siberia
which were under direct rule. 

3. Expansions of various cultures throughout history is
a fascinating study, for example the Romans, Greeks, Arabs,
Ottomans, Turco-Mongols but these are due to a variety of
causes and cannot simply be attested to some short time 
period in history where they were ruled by some other group.
It's doubtful that the Slavic expansions would have either
stopped or not started if it were not for the Tartars. The
expansions had been going on for about a thousand years
before the Tatars. It's not clear what causes these exactly.
It's a complex process aand in some cases, once set in
motion, they seem to continue for long periods of time
despite being dealt serious blows. For example, the Tartar
incursion did not stop the Slavic expansions. The utter
defeat inflicted on the Ottomans by Timurlane did not stop
them either. It continued.

One can see similar (economic) expansions in this century. The
defeats inflicted on Japan and Germany did not permanently
halt their progress, whereas some nations which did not
enter WWII are still behind. And some nations which won
WWII are still lagging behind.

Whatever the value of the myth of the 'permanent' damage
done by the Tatars to the Russian psyche it's unlikely to
have been the real cause. That fact that it can still be
repeated bald-faced after so many centuries is more a
testament to the enduring powers of legend and myth than
to facts of history. Myths and rumors, like prejudice,
grow more powerful with mindless repetition, as can
be evidenced in plentitude among the posts contributed
by the new members of sovok.
-- 

	mark	

   hubey@amiga.montclair.edu         hubey@apollo.montclair.edu
   hubey@pilot.njin.net               ...!rutgers!pilot!hubey