From: fnord@panix.com (Cliff Heller)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Query: Gung fu in New York City
Keywords: -=-=-< a challenge .... >-=-=-
Date: 10 Sep 92 15:52:04 GMT
Organization: Right Bleedin' Church of Libertine Obfuscatology

In <1992Sep09.234000.22033@eng.umd.edu> doug@eng.umd.edu (Douglas N. Cohen) writes:

>	i never said they were anything less.  i was not aware that wai hong had
>retired from *teaching*.  nothing changes in my opinions.

You did so.  I deleted it for brevity, but look back, you said that other
schools have smaller, friendlier classes.  Now you say that you never said
that.   From my understanding, Wai Hong hasn't been teaching for quite some
time.  My friends studied at his school 8 years ago, and classes were
taught by his senior students.  

>>

>	here you are not ....ehr.... precise.  i'm sure your intentions are
>of the highest caliber, and you are not interested in the political scene or
>make-up of the kung fu community.  most likely, you are totally outside of them
>due to your position as a student in the school.  exactly what is your position
>in the *organization* and/or the school?  (please be as precise as you are able
>in the circumstances....)

I am simply a first year student.  I have no real position in the
organization or the school.  But I like what I am learning, and the way
that I am learning it.

>>Again, to "stand outside the political games" is a political stance in and
>>of itself.  I know nothing about it, but Sifu Tak Wah Eng, doesn't concern
>>himself with such matters, or if he does he does not teach/preach it to his
>>students. 
>>

>	again, i must.... ehr.... agree to disagree.  you are *not* correct.
>and, again, i'm *sure* that the politics are not taught/preached in your 
>classes.  i'm equally confident that it doesn't touch you in most of the
>obvious ways.

It what way am I not correct?  I wouldn't be surprised if Sifu Tak is
involved in the politics of the martial arts community.  My major point is
that you cannot "stand outside" such politics, and that you spoke
disrespectfully of my school based on politics, and not based on the
quality of instruction.


>	ask your teacher if you (and your school) can attend the 1993 NACMAF, 
>ICMAC, or the USNCMAC competitions.
>	then ask why not.
>	then ask why they (fu jow pai) don't attend NACMAF, ICMAC, or USNCMAC
>tournaments of the last 3+ years.  and how about the kuosho tournaments?  (i
>wasn't there this year, so i don't know if they did or didn't)
>	finally ask why they don't attend.

ok, Now you are getting specific, although, you have told me to ask a
question that you clearly know the answer to.  Then you asked me to ask
them the same question three times (why they do not attend).  

I am not going to do that.  

But I have my suspicion that the answer would be completely reasonable from
their point of view.  There are two sides to every issue.  

You can also ask your Sifu how come he didn't participate in sponsoring the
Shao-Lin Monk's show this June.  I noticed that there were no other NYC
Kung-Fu schools participating in it - I have a strong suspicion that they
were not excluded.  Then tell me again how your school is above political
infighting.   This sort of thing probably goes on a lot.  It has probably
gone on for centuries.  Again, I say, you are the one who has brought such
politics into the choice of a school, and made a case that your schools are
above it all, when in fact, they are just as much involved and you happen
to favor their position.


>	perhaps....
>	then again, perhaps you cannot see a forrest for the trees.... or are
>not sufficiently significant in the organization to know more than the least
>of the details..... perhaps you don't know as much about your own organization
>as you might like to think....

This is possible.  If you have specifics, why don't you send them to me
privately.  I don't think it is proper to discuss such matters publicly,
but I felt it necessary to respond publicly to a public post that was not only
disrespectful to my school and my organization, but also hypocritical.
>	then again, perhaps you do....  *smile*  perhaps you do...


>	always good advice.  however, you should also educate yourself about
>the school, the teacher(s) and their lineage and standing in the martial arts
>community.  if you are ignorant of martial arts, how do you know that what
>you are (or will be) taught is the real thing?

True.  Although there are many sides to every issue.  Everyone thinks
theirs is the correct position.  I think it is more important to make sure
that you are being tought in a traditional fashion, and not being stroked
along for your money.  There are conflicts even among the various Fu-Jow
Pai schools in the metro area, and I would not recommend that people study
at another school.  

>i am not saying anything about *your* teacher, your school, or the quality of
>your kung fu or instruction.  merely that the organization is not one *i* 
>recommend.  it is strictly *your* (whom ever's) choice.

I realize this.  I'm sure you have some valid points, which I would like to
hear privately.  My only point is that if there are political conflicts
within the chinese martial arts community, then both sides are involved,
and both sides have the "right" position.  It's part of the territory and
no one can "stand outside" the political games, because to even bring it up
is to be a part of it.

-- 
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