From: arron@waikato.ac.nz
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Reconciling OT with NT
Date: 16 Dec 92 12:21:31 +1300
Organization: University of Waikato, Hamilton, New Zealand

> Let me undertstand this:  *ONE* act of disobediance is enough to
> convict the entire human race including all those who have not yet been
> born.  Yet, Charles Manson, Adolf Hitler and Jeffrey Dahmer could be
> granted ever-lasting life if they just accept Christ.  Is that right?
> 
> And you're happy about this system?
> 

Yes ... *ONE* is enough, as at the time it was the ONLY possible Sin they could
have done. Other than that they were walking with God, sharing and walking in
His ways.

As for Hitler ... he didn't (as far as I know) change from his EVIL way, but
had he done so ... maybe he could have been forgiven. If there was nothing God
couldn't forgive, after a bit of repentance, then there would be people who
couldn't get to heaven, and that WOULDN'T be fair !!!!

> Excuse me, up to that point Adam and Eve had only done *one* thing wrong.
> And it didn't even hurt anyone.  It's not like they drowned the entire
> world on a flood, or ordered the children of another tribe slaughtered.
> 

They brought sin into the world, they caused the problem, God just tried
to keep the evil in check. 

> And Adam and Eve hiding in the bushes isn't evidence that they were aware
> they had done wrong?
> 

The words go 'We were afraid', no repentance, just fear as far as I can see.
It's the getting RIGHT with God that really matters.

> OK, I'm not perfect.
> 

Great ... neither am I, I have asked forgiveness from God ... so what are you
going to do about it ????

> OK, I blame Christ for all my troubles and sins.  Whew!  I feel better
> already.  Does this mean I live forever now?
> 

Oh ... heck ... you are a funny man !!! I beleive your interpretation of
offloading everything on to Christ's shoulders is a bit off ... I mean, ask
Christ to represent/intercede for you to God. Be repentant then trust that God
will forgive you. But God knows the ways of men (he made us) and knows when you
say 'I am sorry' to be a smart prat, and when you mean it.

> 
> No, no.  I mean proof that there is a god waiting.  Not proof that someone
> said there was a god waiting.

I'm afraid that unless you look and see with your own eyes, there will never be
any proof good enough for you (short the second coming, which I really hope for
your sake isn't soon)

> 
>>Sure, sweatless. 
> 
> "Sweatless"?
> 
>>                 all you have to do is to know how to communicate with him.
> 
> Wait a sec, you said you knew how to communicate with him.  Why can't he
> communicate *my* way?  Isn't he capable of it?

Now here's where I need a little faith. Yes God can speak to you clearly and 
in a way you can understand (eg. voice/angels/miracles/revelation/miraculous
appearance). I will pray that God does do that. If God doesn't 'show up' I have
my own understanding as to why not. This is what explains it to me, this is not
and argument to convince you, so if you think it's Christian clap-trap ...
tough !!!! If God proved to you, without reasonable doubt that he is real, and
exactly ther character of God in the bible you would HAVE to accept him, no
free choice, no faith, no reasoning required. Have faith that God exists and he
will reveal himself clearly, if you don't it is only God may reveal himself to
change you, (to help you be saved) or he will continue to work in you until you
die a lost sole, or finally realise the truth.

> Geez, it's not gonna be one of these "You can't see him but he's all
> around us <wink><wink>" things, is it?  If so, tell him to forget it.  If
> he can't face me directly then don't bother.

He can face you directly, but even the great OT prophets couldn't look face to
face with God, can you face him ????

> Like I said, if he'd been so patient with Adam and Eve after *one* little
> transgression we'd have avoided the whole mess.

Dead point ... God can commune with the sinful, if you do not have some type of
sacrifice (cows/birds/goats/sheep and finally the one Christ) to lay your sins
on to, you can not be near him, he had to reject what was wrong.

>>That's exactly what he WILL do, it's all documented in the Bible.
> 
> Then what are we worried about.  Party down!

Christ said ... 'No man can come to the Father accept by me' I sought, I found,
and I know this to be true. My eternity is a different one than you face by the
sounds, which is very sad, but it's not too late for you. The we CAN party
down.

> I've found lots of good things in this world.  None of them had "Made by
> god" stamped on them.

Sounds like you've been looking in the wrong place then !!!

Looking forward to Friday 18th December ... God bless, catch ya later Gordon.

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from:arron@waikato.ac.nz			Arron Scott
						University of Waikato
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Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc,alt.atheism