HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: skip@mitre.org (Skip Guild)
Subject: Re: Flying Costs in Mass
Organization: The MITRE Corp
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 11:09:13 GMT

In article <199207212051.AA00979@tuna.wang.com> 
BRIAN.M.CARR@OFFICE.WANG.COM ("Brian Carr    (HARPS)") writes:

>   I have just recently started flying again. I had up until now
>only flew in Grumman's and Pipers but the FBO I rented from has
>since stopped renting (Liability I believe). Anyway I am now flying
>a VFR Skyhawk (in fair condition) which is costing me $65 an hour
>Wet/Hobbs. I could have stayed with a Tiger but it's a '91 and
>would have cost me $75 an hour, again that being Wet/Hobbs.
>For those that care, this is at Minuteman in Stow, Ma.
>My questions to the Local Netters is, 1. is this an average price or
>am I getting screwed. 2. What is the policy where you rent concerning
>taking a plane for say a weekend ( ie. is there a minimum charge
>and if so how much, how far in advance can you reserve, etc).
>3. Are there any good clubs in the Stow/Marlboro/Fitchburg area?

1.  This appears to be in line for FBO rates just north in Nashua, NH.
2.  The FBO has no particular requirement other than being "reasonable".
    If you abuse the privilege, you lose the right.  One renter regularly 
    took the 172 solo every Friday night and returned it Sunday afternoon.  
    The rediculous part was that he only put 1 hour on the plane for each
    weekend flying to Fitchburg and back (about 30 miles) to stay with his 
    parents!
3.  We have several club aircraft at Nashua with wet rates equal to 
    significantly lower than the for-profit FBOs.  Naturally some clubs are 
    better than others, and one in particular I'll never have anything to do 
    with again.  Check out any club with others at the field before joining.
From: birch@felix.filenet.com (Stephen Birch)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
Subject: Re: Fear of Flight
Date: 23 Jul 92 02:19:48 GMT
Reply-To: birch@fritz.filenet.com (Stephen Birch)
Organization: FileNet Corp., Costa Mesa, CA

In article <1992Jul10.181030.6286@ccad.uiowa.edu> yiannis@ccad.uiowa.edu (Yiannis Papelis) writes:
>With respect to ensuring that people are aware of the real 
>risk involved, statistics may not be the best way, since statistics 
>can lie and people know it.

So what are the statistics?  I would be interested to know just how GA
stacks up against car driving in terms of hours flown/driven or miles
flown/driven (My first solo was two weeks ago and am having a ball).

Steve
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
From: kadrich@netcom.com (Mark Kadrich)
Subject: CRAMP Picnic 8Aug92 @ RHV
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 92 04:46:46 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 
Distribution: ca

The Coalition for Responsible Airport Management & Policy is having a picnic
Aug 8th at Reid Hillview Airport in San Jose. Call the CRAMP Hotline 

                     (408) 279-4993

for details.
MSK 
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
From: hopkins@gvlf9-o.gvl.unisys.com (Bill Hopkins)
Subject: Re: In-flight radar from ground stations?
Reply-To: hopkins@gvl.unisys.com
Organization: Paramax Systems Corp (A Unisys Company), Great Valley Labs, PA
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 21:36:40 GMT

In article <1992Jul23.125735.4309@bb1t.monsanto.com> demcma@bb1t.monsanto.com
(Dudley McMackins) asks about transmission of weather radar images to
for in-flight use.

Several years ago, there was an outfit in the hangars at Oshkosh that
was selling a system that would receive wx radar images broadcast on
commercial FM station subcarriers.  They had signed up FM stations in
various cities, and were selling panel-mounted boxes to capture and
display the pictures.  They claimed the effective data rate was about
1200 baud, and that that would be enough.

I haven't heard of them since.  I might have a record someplace of
the name, but it isn't in my head.  Seemed like a creative approach,
keeping the Feds out of their hair.

	Bill (watching the weather on Q102) Hopkins

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Hopkins                    Paramax Systems Corporation (A Unisys Company)
215-648-2854                    Great Valley Labs, PO Box 517, Paoli, PA 19301
hopkins@GVL.Unisys.Com             Opening my mouth is not company policy.
From: hale@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Bill Hale)
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1992 16:29:03 GMT
Subject: Re: prevalence of engine failures
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Fort Collins, CO, USA
From: john@newave.mn.org (John A. Weeks III)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
Subject: Re: Carlsbad Caverns Fly In
Date: 22 Jul 92 15:33:50 GMT
Organization: Newave Communications, Ltd, Lake Wobegon, MN

In <s2dmtm#@lynx.unm.edu> ingham@lacerta.unm.edu (Kenneth Ingham) writes:
> Carlsbad Caverns Fly In (CACAFI*)

I didn't know it was legal to fly an airplane inside of a cave.  It must
be a really big cave....

-john-

-- 
==============================================================================
John A. Weeks III		(612) 942-6969		    john@newave.mn.org
Newave Communications, Ltd.			    ..!uunet!tcnet!newave!john
From: tpickett@auspex.com (Tom Pickett)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
Subject: Re: Gee Bee R2 was Re: Airshow Report
Date: 30 Jul 92 15:04:52 GMT
Reply-To: tpickett@auspex.com (Tom Pickett)
Organization: Auspex Systems, Inc.  Engineering

In article <1992Jul29.220410.24566@aosg.gsf.dec.com>, 
verhulst@raven.aosg.gsf.dec.com writes:
> Well, aileron induced stall can be a problem with many airplanes, which is
> why we're all taught to NOT attempt to pick up a dropping wing with the
> ailerons when we're close to stall.  

I was taught to leave the ailerons neutral in a stall (I got my license in
a 1937 Tcraft BC-65) and pick up the wing with rudder.  What I get confused
about is why in every pilot report I read on any given airplane does the
author talk about how the ailerons are effective during the stall.

Frequently I see a comments to the effect that the pilot picked up the
wing in a stall with the ailerons and not the rudder.  Is this not
dangerous (well not dangerous if you practice spins)? or have
I missed something?


Tom Pickett 
tpickett@auspex.com
SHO  GOZE
From: ipc@otter.hpl.hp.com (Ian Crighton)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
Subject: Re: What's in earth-inductor compass?
Date: 27 Jul 92 13:49:58 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Laboratories, Bristol, UK.

In rec.aviation, lee@bluefuzz.sw.stratus.com (Lee Cooprider) writes:

> I just read "The Spirit of St. Louis" (which, for those who have not read it,
> is a surprisingly well written book) and I keep wondering what an
> earth-inductor compass is.  In the reading I have done, the term has never
> come up, and a quick poll of my aviator friends exposed additional ignorance.

I, too, can't help with the earth-inductor compass, but I would comment
on the style of the book: I seem to recall that it was actually ghost-
written, or that Lindbergh sacked the ghost writer, or something fairly
memorable. The copy I read was a first edition, I think, so it would be 
interesting to know what any later edition says about this.

BTW, the 1956-ish film with James Stewart did, I thought, follow the 
book surprisingly well.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ian Crighton   HP Computer Peripherals Bristol, UK.   ianc@hpcpbla.bri.hp.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
From: mperlman@nyx.cs.du.edu (Marshal "Airborne" Perlman)
Subject: Re: FliteMap $395 Moving Map Software
Organization: University of Denver, Dept. of Math & Comp. Sci.
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 92 03:53:42 GMT

GET a GPS...and if you can wait..the prices are divin' as we speakith'
--
==============================  *  Marshal Perlman               * DO
=-> mperlman@nyx.cs.du.edu <-=  *  Huntington Beach, California  * NOT
==============================  *  (Surf City, U.S.A)            * EAT
* Yeltsin is the Russian word for Retsin * CAUTION: RADIOACTIVE MESSAGE
From: schinner@hp-vcd.vcd.hp.com (Jim Schinnerer)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 19:25:25 GMT
Subject: Re: emergency AD 92-15-16
Organization: Hewlett Packard, Vancouver, WA, USA
Newsgroups: rec.aviation

Given that I own a Mooney with an O-360 engine with the make of
carb in question, one would think that I would get a copy of this
fine document in the mail.  Nope.  Gotta hear about it on the net.

BTW, my carb was indeed overhauled in early October of 91, and according
to the mechanic doing the engine overhaul, the bad floats were not
out yet.  So, I probably don't have a bad part, but the paper trail
should be interesting.

---------------------------------------------------------
Jim Schinnerer  -  PP-ASEL-IA       |  Hewlett Packard
Mooney - 350X  -  "Buster"          |  Vancouver, WA
email - schinner@vcd.hp.com         |  (206) 944-3324
---------------------------------------------------------
From: spenny@sw.stratus.com (Steve Pennypacker)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
Subject: Re: 747 Loop ANSWER
Date: 24 Jul 92 14:22:37 GMT
Organization: Stratus Computer, Inc.

In article <1992Jul24.035048.24489@microsoft.com>, joero@microsoft.com (Joe Robison) writes:
> In article <1992Jul22.211213.2583@tera.com> erik@tera.com wrote:
> > 
> > China Airlines did a nice barrel roll in one of their 747's over the
> > Pacific.  The pilot suffered spatial disorientation, rolled the plane
> > into a dive, pulled up when he broke through the clouds at 10,000
> > feet, pulled 5G's and bent the main wing spar while trying to bring
> > the plane to straight and level flight.  It wasn't pretty, but it was
> > a roll.
> 
> Sounds like a half-roll followed by a half-loop.
> In other words, an Immelman.

Actually, more like a Split-S.  An Immelman is a half loop, followed by a
half roll to upright.  A Split-S is a half roll to inverted followed by a
half loop.  In the first you gain altitude and lose speed, in the second
you get the opposite.

-- 
     Steve Pennypacker		     PP-ASEL

     spenny@wiley.ts.stratus.com     Stephen_Pennypacker@vos.stratus.com
From: ron@pilot.njin.net (Ron Natalie)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
Subject: Re: Controlled airspace
Date: 28 Jul 92 19:38:47 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

> I advise you to thoroughly read your FARs.  Both ATAs and Control Zones *are*
> controlled airspace.  Controlled airspace includes all sorts of things besides
> TCAs and ARSAs - The Continental Control Area and Positive Control Airspace,
> ATAs, Control Zones, airspace on or within four miles of Victor airways,
> etcetera.

You read the FAR's, controlled airspace is specifically spelled out
and ATA's are not in the list of things that are controlled airspace.
While it is uncommon to find an ATA that is not overlayed with some
other controlled airspace (transition areas or Control Zones) there
are some like that and the ATA itself is not controlled airspace.

Further proof is yielded by reading the report and order on the
airspace reclassification:

	"Because airport traffic areas are not
	classified as airspace areas, this amendment establishes
	controlled airspace for airports with operating control towers,
	but without control zones."

The reclass abolishes ATA's and makes any airport with a control
tower that's not part of a TCA/ARSA Class D airspace, which is
controlled.

-Ron
From: dick.zeitlin%acc1bbs@ssr.com (Dick Zeitlin) 
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
Subject: Re: United flight's cargo
Date: 21 Jul 92 22:20:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Advanced Computer Concepts BBS, New Rochelle, NY 914-654-1981
Reply-To: dick.zeitlin%acc1bbs@ssr.com (Dick Zeitlin) 

Commenting on PA-103/Lockerbie:

GRT> .In any case, the speculation seems to come in three basic forms:
   > .        1.  There was no bomb & no terrorist plot, the stupid door
   > .            just failed and the aircraft disintegrated explosively.
   > .            Here, much like the KAL007
   > .            shootdown, the U.S. Govt has played up a case of malice
   > .            aforethought for political gain against the rogue states.
   > .            Evidence for this is mostly in the form of statements that
   > .            it would be impossible, especially in the timeframe
   > .            given, to deduce that the bomb was in a radio/tapeplayer
   > .            carried aboard.  The bits of evidence were neeedles in a hays
   > .            and investigative science is just not that good.
   > .        2.  There was a bomb, but the amouns of material purported are
   > .            not congruent with the damage to the airliner.  The bomb dama
   > .            was not the contributing factor to the crash.  The loss of th
   > .            cargo door was and that loss was inevitable bomb or not.
   > .        3.  There was a bomb but again it was too weak to cause the
   > .            damage witnessed.  The bomb was strong enough to cause the
   > .            failure of the cargo door however and when the cargo door
   > .            went, it took the rest of the plane with it.

You might want to get a copy of the (British) DOT accident report.
It's not as exciting as all the conspiracy theories, but it does include
a lot of detail.

From section 1.12.2.1:

"The reconstruction revealed the presence of damage consistent with an
explosion on the lower fuselage left side in the forward cargo bay area.
A small region of structure bounded approximately by frames 700 & 720
and stringers 38L & 40L, had clearly been shattered and blasted through
by material exhausting directly from an explosion centred immediately
inboard of this location."

There are many pages of similar description and analysis.

This is _Aircraft Accident Report 2/90_ and is available from HMSO (Her
Majesty's Stationery Office) for 18 pounds.  Tel 071-873 9090
ISBN 0-110550981-X

        Best,
          D/


 * OLX 2.2 * Dick.Zeitlin%acc1bbs@ssr.com
From: myers@ut-emx.uucp (Eric Myers)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
Subject: Parks College
Keywords: St. Louis University
Date: 28 Jul 92 04:08:26 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Center for Relativity, University of Texas


   Can anybody tell me anything about Parks College of St. Louis
University (in St. Louis, naturally).  I've heard it has an aviation
focus, something like Emery-Riddle, but I'd like to hear if anyone knows
anything more about it.  Thanks.
-- 
Eric Myers	"If God had intended for man to fly 
			He would have given us the brains to build airplanes."
Center for Relativity, Department of Physics, University of Texas at Austin
myers@emx.utexas.edu  |   myers@utaphy.bitnet   |   myers@ut-emx.UUCP
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
From: petri@venus.iucf.indiana.edu (HOWARD PETRI)
Subject: Gee Bee R2 was Re: Airshow Report
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.3-4   
Keywords: Frecce Tricolori, U-2, Gee Bee
Reply-To: petri@venus.iucf.indiana.edu
Organization: INDIANA U. CYCLOTRON FACILITY, BLOOMINGTON, IN
Distribution:  world
Date: 27 JUL 92 16:12:58    

In article <1992Jul27.192315.25119@walter.bellcore.com>, venky@thelonious.bellcore.com (G A Venkatesh) writes...
>In article <5146@transfer.stratus.com> spenny@sw.stratus.com (Steve Pennypacker) writes:
>>In article <ritter.712245382@claude>, ritter@claude.ma30.bull.com (Roger Ritter) writes:
>>
>>> (stuff deleted)  The Gee-Bee then flew a short
>>> segment.  This is a replica of either the R-1 or the R-2 (I forget
>>> which, although they announced it at the show).  The narrator (the
>>
>>It's the R-2.  Can't wait to see it fly in only... 4 days and counting.
>>
> 
>Five days. As far as I know it is *not* flying on the opening day, the only
>day I will be there..sigh.
> 
>venky

     I talked to Delmar Benjamin briefly at OSH last year. I asked him
if he was worried about killing himself in this machine. So maybe I 
wasn't the first to pose this question. He said, of course,
that he was NOT worried and that he didn't really expect any problems
since he wasn't really going to race this machine, just fly it.
     Well I believe, ( please correct me if I am wrong) that he he doing
an aerobatic routine at these airshows---YIKES. This machine exhibits
reverse aileron characteristics. I plan on catching his first performance
on Sat and would suggest that anyone else that wants to see this thing fly
would be well advised to do the same. Don't wait! Am I overacting? 
Maybe he will just do a few flybys. I really want to see this thing fly too.

Howard Petri
Pegasus N599JH  (EJ)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
From: dst+@cs.cmu.edu (Dave Touretzky)
Subject: twin-burner balloons
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 92 02:46:27 GMT
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon


William LeFebvre writes:

> On the balloon flight we were on[,] the "burner" contraption actually held
> two independent burners with separate fuel supplies.  I understand that
> this is common practice.

Very interesting.  I'd say we've discovered a whole new use for the familiar
phrase "multiengine, centerline thrust".

-- Dave Touretzky,  CFI-AIM,  Seneca N8147E (``The Beast'')
From: geoffm@purplehaze.Corp.Sun.COM (Geoff Miller)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
Subject: Re: P-38 out of the Ice!
Followup-To: rec.aviation
Date: 29 Jul 1992 21:43:39 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Menlo Park, Ca.
NNTP-Posting-Host: purplehaze.corp.sun.com



In article <1992Jul29.170647.5197@equalizer.fps.com> bruceh@fps.com 
(Bruce T. Hill) writes:

>I don't recall if the plane was Navy or Coast Guard, but it had 
>been stuck in the snow and ice when it was abandoned -- I don't 
>think it was actually crash landed.


It was a Navy plane.  The Coast Guard has never had any ski-equipped
C-130s, and I believe that the Air Force got rid of theirs back in
the 1980s.  That leaves Navy Antarctic Development Squadron VXE-6
(based at NAS Point Mugu) as the only remaining American operator of
the LC-130.


Geoff


-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
Geoff Miller                    + + + + + + + +        Sun Microsystems
geoffm@purplehaze.Corp.Sun.COM  + + + + + + + +     Menlo Park, California
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-

Xref: sparky rec.aviation:12406 sci.aeronautics:1717 comp.human-factors:1699
From: tjfs@tadtec.uucp (Tim Steele)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation,sci.aeronautics,comp.human-factors
Subject: Re: Coffe cups in the cockpit (Re: A320 yarns)
Date: 26 Jul 92 04:41:36 GMT
	<1992Jul21.133757.17508@bony1.bony.com> <6v8fsso@Unify.Com>
Organization: Tadpole Technology plc

When travelling on the HP Company Jet about five years ago I was asked
by the pilot to fetch him a polystyrene cup of coffee.  I did this and
was rather surprised to see him wedge the cup of hit coffee
precariously between the top of the dashboard and the windshield.  I
can still see that cup now...

TIm
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
From: greg@saltydog.dpsi.com (Gregory R. Travis)
Subject: Re: prevalence of engine failures
Organization: Data Parallel Systems, Inc
Date: 22 Jul 92 20:55:33 GMT

Perhaps we can post some real data.  N5457E has 3180 hours TT, in that
time it has had two engine "failures," neither one of which would have
done much more than soiled your pants under just about any circumstances.

The first failure was an exhaust valve that let go at 2500 hours TT.
Engine ran REALLY rough but continued to provide enough power to make
it to an airfield and land.  This prompted a rebuild (2500TT on an
-H2AD!).  It is conceivable that the valve could have broken up the piston
and, eventually, seized the engine.  But it didn't.

The second failure was at 2700 hours and resulted when a rocker arm failed
(holddown stud backed out).  Again, it put the affected cylinder out of
commission and trashed the cylinder head and a pushrod and pushrod tube.
The engine was in even less danger of total failure in this mode, but probably
would have exhausted its oil in a couple of hours (oil was leaking out the
damaged pushrod tube).  Nonetheless, a 3-cylinder approach and landing was
made, without damage, to a a farmer's field.

Total time now is 3200 hours, or a failure every 1600 hours on average.

But, what's a failure?  I think of it as total and complete stoppage.

I have yet to experience that.  The only case of total engine failure that
happened to anyone I personally know happened to my instructor at about 7,000
hours (his time) when an unsecured prop-governor oil line let go (at night
no less).

greg
--
Gregory Reed Travis				D  P  S  I
Data Parallel Systems Incorporated   greg@dpsi.com (For MX mailers only!)
Bloomington, IN			     greg@indiana.edu (For the others)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
From: hgp@cbnewsj.cb.att.com (howard.page)
Subject: Druggie Debonaire Auction: Here's the scoop...
Organization: AT&T
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 14:25:52 GMT
Keywords: Thanks to all who assisted me.

I didn't get it (the 1961 Beech A-33 Debonaire, that is).
It went for $29K.  I wanted to spend $20K and would have
gone to $25K. $29K was a little too pricey for my tastes
since, as we all know, it was a risk.  Bidding started at
$15K, representing a sealed bid they had received, went to
$25K in about 30 seconds and to $28K about two minutes
later.

Was it worth $29K with no logs???

It ended up going to an A&P from Atlanta. I sold him all my
research for $50 and a (losing) FL lottery ticket!

The '70 Cessna 421 with logs went for $50K.

Thanks to *everyone* who sent me mail. It was both a
learning experience and *lots* of fun.

Howard G. Page
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
From: verhulst@raven.aosg.gsf.dec.com ()
Subject: Re: the surly bonds of earth
Organization: AOSG
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 17:45:29 GMT

>Mr. Karlsson's posts contain this quote in his .sig, and prompted my
>curiosity. Can anyone provide particulars on this poem? Such as why
>it was written, who wrote it, the full text of the poem. I've seen this
>quoted during the sign-off of some TV stations, where a film is run
>which shows a F104 Starfighter (?) doing some very graceful maneuvers.
>It's a beautiful film clip, but right now, I'd settle for the poem,
>if anyone has it handy. Thanks so much.

Why sure:


                      HIGH FLIGHT
                by John Gillespie Magee, Jr.

        Oh, I have slipped the surly bonds of earth
        And danced the skies on laughter-silvered wings;
        Sunward I've climbed, and joined the tumbling mirth
        Of sun-split clouds--and done a thousand things
        You have not dreamed of--wheeled and soared and sung
        High in the sunlit silence. Hov'ring there
        I've chased the shouting wind along and flung
        My eager craft through footless halls of air
        Up, up the long, delirious, burning blue
        I've topped the windswept heights with easy grace
        Where never lark, or even eagle flew
        And, while with silent, lifting mind I've trod
        The high untrespassed sanctity of space,
        Put out my hand, and touched the face of God.
~

John Magee was an RAF pilot, killed in the Battle of Britain.
Newsgroups: rec.aviation