From: Duong T. Nguyen <dunguye@eis.calstate.edu>
Subject: [HIS] LE^ Lo+.i
Originator: daemon@media-lab.media.mit.edu
Reply-To: dunguye@eis.calstate.edu
Organization: N/A
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 03:32:37 GMT

reforward

The following are the facts that I have drawn from Vie^.t Su+? Toa`n
Thu+ cu?a Pha.m Va(n So+n . The facts also could be verified in
Vie^.t Nam Su+? Lu+o+.c cu?a Tra^`m Tro.ng Kim . Most of these are
probably drawn from Ngo^ Si~ Lie^n (Le^ Dynasty's historian).

In 1407, Ho^` Qui' Ly is captured by the Minh and sent to Qua~ng Ta^y.
This starts the Minh domination. 

The Minh were very cruel with very high taxations:
	Thue^' kho'a ddi.nh nhu+ sau: mo^~i ma^~u ruo^.ng no^.p 5 
	thu+ng tho'c, mo^~i ma^~u phu` sa pha?i no.p 1 la.ng to+, 
	mo^~i ca^n to+ pha?i no.p mo^.t ta^'m lu.a . (p347)

	So^' tho'c ha`ng na(m pha?i no.p ve^` Ta`u la` 13 trie^.u
	80 va.n ho.c tho'c (1 ho.c = 60 li't). Voi, bo` ngu+.a 135900
	con, Thuye^`n 8700 chie^'c, qua^n gio+'i 253900 chie^'c ddu?
	loa.i . (p348)

	Nhu+~ng ngu+o+`i ra la`m vie^.c ca^'p du+o+'i nhu+ Ly' 
	Tru+o+?ng, Gia'p Thu? dde^`u bi. dda'nh dda^.p ra^'t kho^?
	so+? . (p348).

The opposition was organized right away in 1407 by Gia?n DDi.nh Vu+o+ng
Qui~ ho. Tra^`n, or Gia?n DDi.nh DDe^'.

The territory of operation of Gia?n DDi.nh DDe^' is in Thanh, Nghe^.,
Ti?nh:

	Na(m Ma^.u Ti', Gia?n DDi.nh DDe^' ho^.i ho.p ddu+o+.c qua^n
	Ca^`n Vu+o+ng ca'c dda.o Thua^.n Ho'a, Ta^n Bi`nh, Nghe^. An,
	Die^~n Cha^u va` Thanh Ho'a, tie^'n ra DDo^ng DDo^ (Ha` No^.i)
	(p349).

That proves during the 2 years Gia?n DDi.nh DDe^' was in power,
the Thanh Nghe^. Ti?nh provinces (Southern of DDa.i Vie^.t) was not
controled by the Minh . And that no tax collected by the Minh in that
region.

Another oposition by Tra^`n Quy' Khoa'ch started in 1409, when Gia?n
DDi.nh DDe^' lost momentum and have internal strife. 

Tra^`n Quy' Khoa'ch operated in the Nghe^. An region. So the South
of DDa.i Vie^.t are in the influence of the opposition. Tha`nh
Nghe^. An was still in the hands of Vietnamese in 1413:
	Tha'ng sa'u na(m Quy' Ti. (1413), qua^n Minh dda'nh 
	tha`ng Nghe^. An . (p352). 

Tra^`n Quy' Khoa'ch was captured tha'ng 9 na(m Quy' Ti. (1413).

The above to show that Minh never have full control over Vietnam,
especially the Southern part (Thanh Hoa', Nghe^. An, Ha` Ti~nh,
Thua^.n Ho'a).

Here is about Le^ Lo+.i . Born in 1385 (based on the fact that he
died in 1433 at the age of 49. Note that Vietnamese has 1 year old
when borned). In 1407, when Minh came, he was 23. In 1418, he was
32. 
	Lu'c thie^'u tho+`i, ... tuy la` do`ng do~i ha`o tru+o+?ng,
	o^ng dda~ nuo^i chi' lo+'n . ... O^ng du`ng tie^`n ba.c du+
	da^.t trong nha` dde^? thu phu.c nha^n ta^m, ke^'t na.p hie^`n
	si~ kha('p no+i, ddu+o+.c no^~i tie^'ng Ma.nh Thu+o+`ng Qua^n
	mo^.t phu+o+ng . Bo.n quan Ta`u tha^'y ddo^ng ddu+o+.c ngu+o+`i
	me^'n chuo^.ng ne^n cho ngu+o+`i dde^'n du. , co' khi la^'y
	uy the^' do.a na.c o^ng nhu+ng o^ng cu~ng nha^'t ddi.nh cho^'i
	tu+` . (p358).

	O^ng thu+o+`ng no'i vo+'i nhu+~ng ngu+o+`i tha^n ti'n ra(`ng
	"DDa.i tru+o+.ng phu sanh ra o+? ddo+`i dde^? pho` nguy
	cu+'u kho^?, lu+u tie^'ng dde^? la.i nghi`n na(m sau, cho+'
	dda^u dde^? la`m to^i to+' ngu+o+`i ta!". Mo^.t ma(.t o^ng
	chua^?n bi. tho'c ga.o tie^`n ba.c cho+` nga`y du`ng to+'i .
	(p358)

	Cuo^'i na(m 1417, khi binh lu+o+ng khi' gio+'i dda^`y ddu?,
	o^ng cho.n nga`y kho+?i binh va`o so+ tua^`n tha'ng gie^ng
	na(m Ma^.u Tua^'t (1418). (p349).

Le^ Lo+.i operating territory included Lam So+n and Chi' Linh, both
in the Thanh Ho'a Province.

The above shows that Le^ Lo+.i was from the Southern part, which 
was not fully controled by the Minh except perhaps from 1414 to 1417.
However, the facts that Le^ Lo+.i could levy his own army and the
Minh did asked him to collaborate could mean that Le^ Lo+.i never
paid taxes or collaborate to the Minh. And the theory that collaborate
with the oppressive regime in order to be able to levy his own army
could not be defended: he would not gain support of the population
if he was collaborating the the Minh.

Le^ Lo+.i has other short comings as a ruler/leader. That is beyond
the scope of this article. 

For now, I decline to comment on the good/bad sides of the Lifting
of the Embargo without any conditions. The topics alone would need
careful reasoning in order to avoid demagogeous statements, over-
generalization and shortsighted view. This posting is to provides
historical data about Le^ Lo+.i, so we would not have false ideas
about this man.

DUONG TH. NGUYEN
	



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Received:  by eis.calstate.edu (5.59a/25-eef)
	id AA05098; Wed, 29 Jul 92 23:04:36 PDT
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 92 23:04:36 PDT
From: Duong T. Nguyen <dunguye>
Full-Name: Duong T. Nguyen
Message-Id: <9207300604.AA05098@eis.calstate.edu>
To: scv@hayd.stanford.edu
Subject: [HIS] LE^ LO+.I


The following are the facts that I have drawn from Vie^.t Su+? Toa`n
Thu+ cu?a Pha.m Va(n So+n . The facts also could be verified in
Vie^.t Nam Su+? Lu+o+.c cu?a Tra^`m Tro.ng Kim . Most of these are
probably drawn from Ngo^ Si~ Lie^n (Le^ Dynasty's historian).

In 1407, Ho^` Qui' Ly is captured by the Minh and sent to Qua~ng Ta^y.
This starts the Minh domination. 

The Minh were very cruel with very high taxations:
	Thue^' kho'a ddi.nh nhu+ sau: mo^~i ma^~u ruo^.ng no^.p 5 
	thu+ng tho'c, mo^~i ma^~u phu` sa pha?i no.p 1 la.ng to+, 
	mo^~i ca^n to+ pha?i no.p mo^.t ta^'m lu.a . (p347)

	So^' tho'c ha`ng na(m pha?i no.p ve^` Ta`u la` 13 trie^.u
	80 va.n ho.c tho'c (1 ho.c = 60 li't). Voi, bo` ngu+.a 135900
	con, Thuye^`n 8700 chie^'c, qua^n gio+'i 253900 chie^'c ddu?
	loa.i . (p348)

	Nhu+~ng ngu+o+`i ra la`m vie^.c ca^'p du+o+'i nhu+ Ly' 
	Tru+o+?ng, Gia'p Thu? dde^`u bi. dda'nh dda^.p ra^'t kho^?
	so+? . (p348).

The opposition was organized right away in 1407 by Gia?n DDi.nh Vu+o+ng
Qui~ ho. Tra^`n, or Gia?n DDi.nh DDe^'.

The territory of operation of Gia?n DDi.nh DDe^' is in Thanh, Nghe^.,
Ti?nh:

	Na(m Ma^.u Ti', Gia?n DDi.nh DDe^' ho^.i ho.p ddu+o+.c qua^n
	Ca^`n Vu+o+ng ca'c dda.o Thua^.n Ho'a, Ta^n Bi`nh, Nghe^. An,
	Die^~n Cha^u va` Thanh Ho'a, tie^'n ra DDo^ng DDo^ (Ha` No^.i)
	(p349).

That proves during the 2 years Gia?n DDi.nh DDe^' was in power,
the Thanh Nghe^. Ti?nh provinces (Southern of DDa.i Vie^.t) was not
controled by the Minh . And that no tax collected by the Minh in that
region.

Another oposition by Tra^`n Quy' Khoa'ch started in 1409, when Gia?n
DDi.nh DDe^' lost momentum and have internal strife. 

Tra^`n Quy' Khoa'ch operated in the Nghe^. An region. So the South
of DDa.i Vie^.t are in the influence of the opposition. Tha`nh
Nghe^. An was still in the hands of Vietnamese in 1413:
	Tha'ng sa'u na(m Quy' Ti. (1413), qua^n Minh dda'nh 
	tha`ng Nghe^. An . (p352). 

Tra^`n Quy' Khoa'ch was captured tha'ng 9 na(m Quy' Ti. (1413).

The above to show that Minh never have full control over Vietnam,
especially the Southern part (Thanh Hoa', Nghe^. An, Ha` Ti~nh,
Thua^.n Ho'a).

Here is about Le^ Lo+.i . Born in 1385 (based on the fact that he
died in 1433 at the age of 49. Note that Vietnamese has 1 year old
when borned). In 1407, when Minh came, he was 23. In 1418, he was
32. 
	Lu'c thie^'u tho+`i, ... tuy la` do`ng do~i ha`o tru+o+?ng,
	o^ng dda~ nuo^i chi' lo+'n . ... O^ng du`ng tie^`n ba.c du+
	da^.t trong nha` dde^? thu phu.c nha^n ta^m, ke^'t na.p hie^`n
	si~ kha('p no+i, ddu+o+.c no^~i tie^'ng Ma.nh Thu+o+`ng Qua^n
	mo^.t phu+o+ng . Bo.n quan Ta`u tha^'y ddo^ng ddu+o+.c ngu+o+`i
	me^'n chuo^.ng ne^n cho ngu+o+`i dde^'n du. , co' khi la^'y
	uy the^' do.a na.c o^ng nhu+ng o^ng cu~ng nha^'t ddi.nh cho^'i
	tu+` . (p358).

	O^ng thu+o+`ng no'i vo+'i nhu+~ng ngu+o+`i tha^n ti'n ra(`ng
	"DDa.i tru+o+.ng phu sanh ra o+? ddo+`i dde^? pho` nguy
	cu+'u kho^?, lu+u tie^'ng dde^? la.i nghi`n na(m sau, cho+'
	dda^u dde^? la`m to^i to+' ngu+o+`i ta!". Mo^.t ma(.t o^ng
	chua^?n bi. tho'c ga.o tie^`n ba.c cho+` nga`y du`ng to+'i .
	(p358)

	Cuo^'i na(m 1417, khi binh lu+o+ng khi' gio+'i dda^`y ddu?,
	o^ng cho.n nga`y kho+?i binh va`o so+ tua^`n tha'ng gie^ng
	na(m Ma^.u Tua^'t (1418). (p349).

Le^ Lo+.i operating territory included Lam So+n and Chi' Linh, both
in the Thanh Ho'a Province.

The above shows that Le^ Lo+.i was from the Southern part, which 
was not fully controled by the Minh except perhaps from 1414 to 1417.
However, the facts that Le^ Lo+.i could levy his own army and the
Minh did asked him to collaborate could mean that Le^ Lo+.i never
paid taxes or collaborate to the Minh. And the theory that collaborate
with the oppressive regime in order to be able to levy his own army
could not be defended: he would not gain support of the population
if he was collaborating the the Minh.

Le^ Lo+.i has other short comings as a ruler/leader. That is beyond
the scope of this article. 

For now, I decline to comment on the good/bad sides of the Lifting
of the Embargo without any conditions. The topics alone would need
careful reasoning in order to avoid demagogeous statements, over-
generalization and shortsighted view. This posting is to provides
historical data about Le^ Lo+.i, so we would not have false ideas
about this man.

DUONG TH. NGUYEN
	



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