HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mouse@thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu (der Mouse)
Subject: Re: GUIs Considered Harmful
Organization: McGill Research Centre for Intelligent Machines
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 92 19:50:30 GMT

In article <RJC.92Sep4141217@daiches.cogsci.ed.ac.uk>, rjc@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Caley) writes:
> In article <1992Sep3.220451.13791@thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu>, der Mouse (dm) writes:
>> Until you use a machine with a trackball, or a tablet-and-puck, or a
>> retinal tracker, instead of a mouse...or if, as I suspect, xcal
>> doesn't bother to check and blindly assumes a three-button mouse,
>> you use it with a mouse with other than three buttons.

> Gee, isn't all the world a Sun? :-)

Everyone sure seems to assume so.  Blindly assuming three-button mice
(or indeed assuming the pointer device is a mouse at all), blindly
assuming everything of depth greater than 1 is depth-8 PseudoColor....
Grrr.

> Actually, while mutant mice with less than three butons exist, I
> don't think software should cater to this perversion without the user
> providing a 20 page essay on why they are inflicting such a
> monstrosity on the world.

I said other than three buttons, not fewer than three buttons.

And I didn't say cater to.  Printing a message like "I can't run on a
server with only 2 buttons on the pointer" and dying is better than
running crippled due to needing a nonexistent third button.  (Usually.
I would want any such program to have a switch saying "I know what I'm
doing; run anyway.".)  Not checking and then depending on the presence
of those buttons is IMO a bug.

					der Mouse

			    mouse@larry.mcrcim.mcgill.edu
Newsgroups: alt.religion.computers,comp.human-factors,comp.windows.misc,comp.windows.news,comp.windows.x
From: edcrwfrd@unlv.edu (Edward Crawford)
Subject: Re: GUIs Considered Harmful
Keywords: Mac, Window, Throw
Organization: UNLV
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 92 02:12:25 GMT

>>>
I have found the CLI interface ( for my work ) to be most flexible,
you can type anything, if you get it wrong it simply coughs and
splutters, but it lets you do it.. with GUI's and CUI's, what's
allowed is allowed, and anything else IS IMPOSSIBLE.. which means a
good GIU need to cater for just about everything.. thats a pretty tall
order to give ANYONE! ( I wouldn't touch it personally :-) )
<<<

With a good UI you can customize it to whatever you want. Saying
anything else is simply wrong. Trust me, my mac is set up to do
numerous things that normally couldt be done normally. Oh,
and my mac never coughs and sputters. (it plays music when it dies,
but every mac does that.)
Xref: sparky alt.religion.computers:721 comp.human-factors:2137 comp.windows.misc:1374 comp.windows.news:649 comp.windows.x:16354
From: rjc@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Caley)
Newsgroups: alt.religion.computers,comp.human-factors,comp.windows.misc,comp.windows.news,comp.windows.x
Subject: Re: GUIs Considered Harmful
Date: 8 Sep 92 15:52:38 GMT
Organization: Human Communication Research Center
In-reply-to: smr@hitkw14.pki-nbg.philips.de's message of 4 Sep 92 12:23:19 GMT

In article <smr.715609399@hitkw14>, S.Riehm  (s) writes:

s> I figure that GUI's are inherently non-extensible, even those
s> wonderful window manager that allow you to define your own pop-up
s> menus and so on, can you make this menu beep when it pops up? can you
s> make this tear off menu always sit at the back of the window stack
s> unless called up explicitly? 

Yes. Now, C may not be the ideal configuration language, but it is
there. X's `mechanism, not policy' slogan does have some advantages. 

--
rjc@cogsci.ed.ac.uk	Running something almost, but not quite,
			totally unlike twm.
Xref: sparky alt.religion.computers:728 comp.human-factors:2146 comp.windows.misc:1379 comp.windows.news:653 comp.windows.x:16384
From: Tom Christiansen <tchrist@convex.COM>
Subject: Re: GUIs Considered Harmful
Originator: tchrist@pixel.convex.com
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 14:51:09 GMT
Reply-To: tchrist@convex.COM (Tom Christiansen)
Organization: Convex Computer Corporation, Colorado Springs, CO
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

[many newsgroups deleted]

From the keyboard of mathew@mantis.co.uk (mathew):
:"Marc VanHeyningen" <mvanheyn@peach.ucs.indiana.edu> writes:
:> >Mantis doesn't have a Postscript printer at all.  But if you give me the
:> >actual document, I can probably print it; we can handle a list of document
:> >formats as long as your arm.
:> 
:> Irrelevant.  Many documents, such as TRs, are "published" as Postscript
:> via FTP.
:
:And very irritating it is too.  Even when I had access to a Postscript
:printer, I used to get godawful results when I printed such "published"
:documents, as I was using standard A4 paper.  It just demonstrates once again
:the parochialism of Americans.

Consider:

    And very irritating it is too.  Even when I had access to a Postscript
    printer, I used to get godawful results when I printed such
    "published" documents, as I was using standard 8.5x11" paper.  
    It just demonstrates once again the parochialism of Europeans.

Why is or is this not a symmetric paragraph?

--tom
-- 
    Tom Christiansen      tchrist@convex.com      convex!tchrist

Never make anything simple and efficient when a way can be found to
make it complex and wonderful.
Newsgroups: alt.religion.computers,comp.human-factors,comp.windows.x
From: mouse@thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu (der Mouse)
Subject: Re: GUIs Considered Harmful
Organization: McGill Research Centre for Intelligent Machines
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 92 08:04:48 GMT

In article <1992Sep3.213648.6456@alphalpha.com>, nazgul@alphalpha.com (Kee Hinckley) writes:

> Take a look at EFIColor's Cachet program and tell me you could color
> correct a picture faster with a command interface.
(You gonna send me a copy of it?)
> Take a look at any page layout program, fancy word processor, video
> editing program or anything like that.

Your point is a reasonable one - some things are inherently graphical -
but I take issue with the bit about word processors.  I've used, or
rather tried to use, multiple "word processor" programs.  Give me TeX
any day.  (A WP may make the difference between "minimally tolerable"
and "tolerably good".  But GUI WPs - at least all the ones I've seen -
do not let you get the rest of the way to "good" no matter how hard you
work.  TeX, in my experience, steepens the learning curve, but that's
because it cuts out the plateau at "tolerably good".)

> The key element is experimentation.  A GUI with a direct manipulation
> interface makes experimentation far faster.  One result of this is
> that GUIs often *aren't* any faster.  But the result is better.

(Hm, I guess I misunderstood you.)  Go look up "macdink" in TNHD.
That's the downside of providing the ability to experiment instantly.

					der Mouse

			    mouse@larry.mcrcim.mcgill.edu
From: jbw@bigbird.bu.edu (Joe Wells)
Newsgroups: alt.religion.emacs
Subject: Re: newbie question
Date: 16 Sep 92 04:26:52 GMT
Distribution: alt.religion.emacs
Organization: Boston University Computer Science Department
In-reply-to: kfogel@occs.cs.oberlin.edu's message of 12 Sep 92 21:57:19 GMT

In article <KFOGEL.92Sep12165719@occs.cs.oberlin.edu> kfogel@occs.cs.oberlin.edu (Karl Fogel) writes:

   This is the first time I have ever read this newsgroup. I am very religious
   about Emacs - evangelical, even - and was curious to see what the group was
   about. However, I have yet to see anything about Emacs. All discussion seems
   to be about dropping people from buildings.

I believe this was originally started by a crossposting from some weirdo
named Colvin about religious questions, i.e. what happens when you die.
The falling from heights thread resulted from someone's response to a
signature quote.

-- 
Joe Wells <jbw@cs.bu.edu>
Member of the League for Programming Freedom --- send e-mail for details

  "Emacs is not an editor.  Emacs is a way of thinking about the world, and
  as such is a way of thinking about editors.  The process of editing is
  Emacs, but Emacs is more than the process of editing.  When you ask what
  Emacs does, you are asking a question with no answer, because Emacs
  doesn't do, it is done to.  Emacs just is.  ... I hope this makes things
  clearer."
	  -- Scott Dorsey <kludge@grissom.larc.nasa.gov>
Newsgroups: alt.religion.emacs
From: kfogel@occs.cs.oberlin.edu (Karl Fogel)
Subject: newbie question
Organization: Oberlin College Computer Science
Distribution: alt.religion.emacs
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1992 21:57:19 GMT
X-Posted-From: occs.cs.oberlin.edu
X-Posted-Through: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

This is the first time I have ever read this newsgroup. I am very religious
about Emacs - evangelical, even - and was curious to see what the group was
about. However, I have yet to see anything about Emacs. All discussion seems
to be about dropping people from buildings. There was a post implying that
Arsenio Hall uses Emacs, but aside from that I have seen no references to 
anything except terminal velocities and bungee-jumping. What's the deal?
Is this group really about Emacs or not?

--

 Karl Fogel ("Leg of Lark") }%{     Member, League for Programming Freedom.    
 kfogel@occs.cs.oberlin.edu }%{ ***  Help stop the patenting of ideas now!  ***
 fogel@antares.mcs.anl.gov  }%{  Feel free to mail me for more info on the LPF 
      --- If you know about Internet nodes in China, please send mail! ---
From: latta@scam.berkeley.edu (Craig R. Latta)
Newsgroups: alt.religion.emacs
Subject: Re: newbie question
Date: 12 Sep 92 22:33:07 GMT
Organization: Experimental Computing Facility (XCF)
NNTP-Posting-Host: xcf.berkeley.edu
In-reply-to: kfogel@occs.cs.oberlin.edu's message of Sat, 12 Sep 1992 21:57:19 GMT



	Karl Fogel (kfogel@occs.cs.oberlin.edu) writes:

> Is this group really about Emacs or not?

	It used to be, then someone posted an inappropriate article
and people took the bait, talking about everything *but* Emacs.
	
	Now this group is a fine venue for GNUs newskilling
techniques. Every time I read news, I see a few articles are posted
here in my "List of Groups", and they all get killed. If I couldn't
kill with regular expressions (kill by author, etc.) I don't know what
I'd do (probably just stop reading this group).

	Congratulations!  I think yours is the first article that got
through (*and* had something vaguely to do with Emacs) in about three
weeks.

	I'll probably be killing this thread soon too, I imagine...


-C




--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Craig R. Latta           Experimental Computing Facility                (XCF)
Composer, Software and   ParcPlace Systems, Inc.        (latta@parcplace.com)
    Recording Engineer   NetJam, Berkeley                (netjam-request@xcf)
latta@xcf.Berkeley.EDU   Smallmusic OO music project (smallmusic-request@xcf)
(standard  disclaimer)   proof NL parsing project         (proof-request@xcf)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: alt.religion.sabaean
From: eshin@ddsw1.mcs.com (Eshin-Fun)
Subject: congratulations
Organization: ddsw1.MCS.COM Contributor, Chicago IL
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL3
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 14:12:29 GMT

Congratulations! I'm glad to see there is finally an alternative to
alt.pagan that can open discussions on "Pagan" religion or "Sabaeanism"
without worrying if it meets with "Wiccan" standards.

Eshin-Fun

Newsgroups: alt.religion.sabaean
From: bes@ddsw1.mcs.com (Bes)
Subject: Good!
Organization: ddsw1.MCS.COM Contributor, Chicago IL
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL3
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 14:20:47 GMT

It's about time someone did something of another pagan theme alternative to
Alt.pagan or alt.magick.

Bes

Newsgroups: alt.religion.sabaean
From: Steven.Kolins@bbs.oit.unc.edu (Steven Kolins)
Subject: Fundamentals of Sabaean Religion Please
Organization: Extended Bulletin Board Service
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 15:00:47 GMT


Greetings.  i know nothing of the Sabaean religion but its name and fague
memories of its mention in some circles.  i would like to know its
fundamentals, authority, origin, and relationship to other modern
religions.  I ahve noticed references to Wicca and magic so far.  I am not
interested in spells and such save in the realm of theology of reality,
and do not wish to explore this area from any other perspective for
reasons of my own.  Reerences to Paganism mean little to me save that it
is in the non-christian area of religion, and not of a stature to be
recognized generally by its own name - beyond which it is a eurocentric
idea anyway when Chrisitianity was responding to local religion in Europe
instead of representing Europe.

thanks
Steven
--
   The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the University of
     North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the Campus Office for Information
        Technology, or the Experimental Bulletin Board Service.
           internet:  bbs.oit.unc.edu or 152.2.22.80
From: someone@somewhere.edu
Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology
Subject: What OT level is Harry Palmer?
Date: 14 Sep 92 21:20:51 GMT

Harry Palmer used to own a mission in New York.  Some years ago, he
formed a group called "Avatar".  Does anyone know how far he got
in Scientology before he split?
Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology
From: scg@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Scott Goehring)
Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology
Subject: Re: Inquiry
Date: 14 Sep 92 15:03:46 GMT
Reply-To: scg@mentor.cc.purdue.edu
Organization: Society for the Prevention of National Mudding Associations

mparikh@uceng.UC.EDU (Mehul Parikh) writes:

>I have heard that Tom Cruise (who says he gained from it, he became
>more himself, he uses the Scientology-develiped sound system for his
>movies),

Tom Cruise is a victim of childhood physical abuse; he appears to be
using Scientology as a tool to REPRESS the unpleasant memories (this
based on the interview he had with Barbara Walters; he was unable to
talk at all about the abuse).  As a survivor of physical abuse myself,
I think this is totally idiotic.  If Scientology is really trying to
help him suppress the memories, he's going to be far far worse off
then he was before.

I will also note that, IMHO, the quality of his acting has dropped
remarkably since he became a Scientologist.  He seems more wooden,
more detached, less a part of his roles, then he did before.

>Christy Alley (spell?) (who lost weight using their body-clear
>approach),

Reports are that she's alienated most of the Cheers cast with her
extremely irritable attitude lately.  She was kicked out of her role
of Saavik in the Star Trek movies because of personality differences
between her and the rest of the cast and crew.  In short, she's hard
to work with.  The causal observer can tell that Kirstie has several
nonresolved neuroses (perhaps even a psychosis or two) that
Scientology isn't doing anything for, and may well be making worse.

>John Travolta are few of the celebrity Scientologists.

Travolta hasn't done anything meaningful in ages.

Aside from the fact that one should never allow a celebrity testimonal
to sell you on something, I would never be swayed by these three.  One
is a washout, one is on the way out, and the other is inevitably
headed for an emotional explosion.  Not convincing testimony, if you
ask me.
--
"in public debate our own citizens must tolerate insulting, and even
 outrageous speech in order to provide adequate breathing space to the
 freedoms protected by the First Amendment."
	-- Justice William Rehnquist, in _Hustler Magazine v. Falwell_
Xref: sparky alt.religion.scientology:1971 alt.recovery:3176
From: exuptr@exu.ericsson.se (exuptr@exu.ericsson.se)
Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology,alt.recovery
Subject: Re: Narconon Chilocco in Oklahoma
Date: 13 Sep 92 22:17:01 GMT
Organization: Ericsson Network Systems, Inc.

In article <BuHFrx.215@ssr.com> sdb@ssr.com (Scott Ballantyne) writes:

>As some of you may know, the Scientology front-group Narconon Chilocco
>requested certification for a 75 bed residential drug and alcohol
>treatment facility in Oklahoma over a year ago.  In order for the
>Oklahoma State Board of Mental Health to grant this application, it
>must be shown by a preponderance of the evidence that the Narconon
>program is safe and effective. In persuance of this objective, the
>board heard testimony on October 18, 1991 and December 13, 1991 on the
>application, including witness testimony and exhibits presented as
>evidence.  As a result of this testimony, the board denied the
>certification of the Narconon therapy as a valid drug treatment
>modality, and ordinarily that would be the end of it.  Narconon has
>appealed, and there also seems to be a loophole in the Oklahoma law
>that has allowed Narconon to press the case further.  The woman I
>spoke with at the Oklahoma Board of Mental Health told me that while
>no new evidence has been presented by Narconon to change the opinion
>of the Board, it is quite possible that Narconon Chilocco will receive
>certification after all, simply because the State Board of Mental
>Health doesn't have the budget to pay the legal costs for a second
>hearing!

>The excerpts that follow are from the document 'Findings of Fact and
>Conclusions of Law on the Narconon Chilocco Application for
>Certification' obtained from the Oklahoma State Board of Mental
>Health.

>Regards,
>sdb

Is there somewhere we can write to give evidence on these matters?
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "This must be Thursday.  I never could get the hang of Thursdays"
                                                       - Douglas Adams
  - Patrick Taylor                                       (Arthur Dent)
    Ericsson Network Systems
    exuptr@exu.ericsson.se                       "Don't let the .se fool you"
    or exuptr@ZGNews.Lonestar.Org, exu.exuptr@memo.ericsson.se
Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology
From: sdb@ssr.com (Scott Ballantyne)
Subject: Scientology History - Dianezene
Organization: ScotSoft Research
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 21:33:41 GMT

Having seen recent claims in this newsgroup of Church of Scientology
claims that Niacin is a cure for radiation sickness (as administered
in both their Purification Rundown and by their secular front group
Narconon) it is interesting to note that one of the earliest problems
that Scientology had with the law was for marketing something called
`Dianezine'. Dianezine was a vitamin tablet and was promoted as a cure
for radiation sickness. 'Radiation sickness' was the big bugaboo of
the public in the 50's, just like environmental illness (from supposed
toxins and chemicals in our food and water) is the big fear today, and
this 'environmental poisoning' is one of the things the Purification
Rundown is supposed to cure.

While the Church advertised the contents of the Dianezene capsules as a
'Special Anti-Radiation Compound' and claimed on the bottles label
that each one contained (among other things) 333 mg of iron, 6 2/3 mg
of vitamin b1 and 100 mg of ascorbic Acid, the FDA found that each
tablet contained less of each of these: 198 mg of Iron, 4.44 mg of B1,
and 75.5 mg of ascorbic acid per tablet, so Dianezene was a consumer
ripoff in more than one sense.

The above information is from the Federal Register for 1958, case
5757.

sdb
Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology
From: gisle@ifi.uio.no (Gisle Hannemyr)
Subject: Re: Narconon Chilocco in Oklahoma
Followup-To: alt.religion.scientology
Organization: gisle@ifi.uio.no
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 13:55:34 GMT
Originator: gisle@drott.ifi.uio.no


Within the Church of Scientology, Narconon plays a rather special
role. The organization publishes statistics, make references to
independent scientific studies and presents itself as a non-religious
organization whose methods and claims are rooted on "science" in the
traditional (i.e. non-scientologist) meaning of the word.

The easiest claim to investigate is that there exists several
independent scientific studies that confirms that the detox program
has an astonishing success rate where 76% of the clients is
rehabilitated.  This claim is repeated in most of their literature.
It is expressed as a straightforward assertion, with no reservations.

The findings of "Oklahoma State Board of Mental Health" seems
to establish clearly that this claim his highly suspect, viz:
> No scientifically well-controlled independent, long-term outcome
> studies were found that directly and clearly establish the
> effectiveness of the Narconon program for the treatment of chemical
> dependency and the more credible evidence establishes Narconon's
> program is not effective.

I suspect, however, that many Scientologists will simply shrug and say
to themselves. "The board was hostile, the Church is persecuted, and
the Church will never get fair treatment".  Don't stop there.  Try
to get the facts yourselves.  Write to:

	Narconon Chilocco
	Box 400
	Newkirk, Oklahoma 74647
	United States

and request proper references to and/or photocopies of the
independent scientific studies that the Narconon literature
repeatedly refers to.

I have done so.  I have written several letters and sent several faxes
to them to get the references and/or photocopies of these studies, but
I only get the same old glossy booklets that repeats the same
unsubstantiated claims.

I have given the Narconon people every chance to present the
evidence they repeatedly claim exists, and they repeat their
claims but does not bother to present the evidence.

I have now come to the conclusion that the Narconon outfit are not
more than a bunch of charalatans who are exploiting people desperate
from addiction by charging $5000 a week for a very dubious
"treatment".

I have now come to the conlusion that the 76% rehabilitation figure
is a barefaced lie, in the sense that there is very little evidence
(if any) to substantiate it.

But if you are a Scientologist, you don't have to take my word for it.
Write to Narconon yourself and evaluate the documentation they send
you. THEN make up your opinion about Narconon and the religion in
fronts.

Do you have the guts to do it?



--
Disclaimer: My employer seldom even LISTENS to my opinion.
 
- gisle hannemyr  (Norsk Regnesentral)
  OSI:   C=no;PRMD=uninett;O=nr;S=Hannemyr;G=Gisle (X.400 SA format)
         gisle.hannemyr@nr.no                      (RFC-822  format)
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  UUCP:  ...!mcsun!ifi!gisle
------------------------------------------------

Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology