HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se (Bertil Jonell)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Finns of Norway
Date: 21 Nov 92 13:29:27 GMT
Organization: Chalmers Tekniska Lekskola, G|teborg, G|taland

In article <nkjrm.29@taxus.uib.no> nkjrm@taxus.uib.no (Rolf Manne) writes:
>There is a lot of noise on the net about the bad treatment of the Finns
>of Sweden, but there is no mention of the Finnish settlements in Norway.

  Probably because there isn't a Norwegian-speaking minority in Finland...

>While I am at it, I may tell that there was also a substantial Swedish
>immigration to Norway in the period 1880-1920. This was from Western Sweden 
>to the newly industrialized areas in South-east Norway. Some also came to 
>build railways. These people were very fast assimilated.

  Genocide! Genocide! Genocide! Genocide! :) :) :) :)

>Rolf Manne
>e-mail Rolf.Manne@uib.no

-bertil-
--
"Ack! Phht!" - Bill the Prez
From: txl@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Trevor Lyall)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Repost : Looking for addresses
Date: 19 Nov 92 14:20:02 GMT
Reply-To: txl@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Trevor Lyall)
Organization: Department of Computer Science, University of Edinburgh

I'm reposting this message as I'm not sure that it got through last
time, sorry if it did :-)

I'm looking for the addresses of the following companies in Sweden : 
	Phillips (Stockholm)
	Logica
	Sun Microsystems (Stockholm)

 Thanks very much for any help.

Cheers, Trev.
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Trevor Lyall               "I'm not a number, I'm a free man!!!" - The Prisoner
e-mail : txl@dcs.ed.ac.uk  (Just in case you missed it in the header!!!!)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: achristo@pons.uio.no (Alf Christophersen)
Subject: Re: A question to Norway about Shetland Is.
Organization: University of Oslo
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 12:25:24 GMT


>> or ruled by Norway again.
>I doubt if Norway could get the Shetlands from the UK.
>.....there's a lot of oil around the Shetland Islands.

A very good reason to join Norway :-)

>;-)
>
>+--------------------------------------+------------------------------------+
>| George Taylor                        | Tel:  031 554 9424                 |
>| Spider Systems Limited               | Fax:  031 555 0664                 |

Alf Christophersen
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: f33012l@puukko.hut.fi (Janne Kivel{)
Subject: Re: Alcoholism in Scandinavia.....
Reply-To: f33012l@puukko.hut.fi (Janne Kivel{)
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 13:57:44 GMT

osstlm@eua.ericsson.se writes:

>While we are at it; I think the picture of the screaming Swedish drunkard,
>unable to control himself, in contrast to the cultivated "beer-country" person
>is a myth. Haa anybody ever been abroad and seen drunk Englishmen or Germans ?

According to my limited experience of traveling abroad, the drinking habits
of Scandinavians are at least among the worst if not the worst. It's fair
to assume that the present system of state monopoly used in Norway, Finland 
and Sweden doesn't greatly contribute to making our drinking habits
better.

In Finland, Alko spends a lot of money in printing information pamphlets
and distributing them in Alko shops. Nobody reads them, but it looks like
the authorities are doing something. The only effective control mechanism
the government has is the price. But if you raise the price high enough,
people start making their alcohol themselves or buy it from the Russian
and Estonian tourists.

Janne Kivela"

      "N{m{kin pusakat vain viisysiysi. Ja kaikista valtakunnan..."
                     ----- Simo vaatehuoneelta
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: jjj@mits.mdata.fi (Joni Jarvenkyla)
Subject: Re: Alcoholism in Scandinavia.....
Organization: Microdata Oy, Helsinki, Finland
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1992 15:48:03 GMT


We could try introducing marijuana.

Targeted especially for the young, so that they wouldn't poison
themselves with alcohol. Let the old generations dissolve away with
ethanol, but save the young.

--
jjj@mits.mdata.fi | PGP 2.0 key available | PGP 2.0 avain saatavilla
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: kimmel@cortex.sai.vtt.fi     (Jyrki Kimmel)
Subject: Re: Help with homebrew translation
Organization: Technical Research Centre of Finland (VTT/SAI)
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 06:42:41 GMT

In article <1992Nov16.151207.19098@llyene.jpl.nasa.gov> julie@eddie.jpl.nasa.gov (Julie Kangas) writes:
>
>I recently visited Finland and, being a beginning homebrewer,
>was delighted to find homebrewing equipement in Stockmanns.  I 
>picked up a can of Sahti extract to try and was out of Finland
>before I realized that it probably won't follow the "standard"
>procedure.  A can of this size should make 5 gallons but it looks
>like it only makes 6 liters.  Could someone help me out and 
>translate the following?  I'll lift a glass of Sahti to you :)

What a chance to teach 'all the slobs who haven't bothered to 
learn Finnish' some of the basics.

>1.  Kiehautetaan 21 vett(ad), johon mallasuute kaadetaan.  Sekoitetaan
>huvin ja kaadetaan k(ad)ymisastiaan.  Lis(ad)t(ad)(ad)n kylm(ad)(ad)
>vett(ad), kunnes kokonaism(ad)(ad)r(ad) on 6 litraa.
>

Boil 2 liters of water in which the extract is then poured. Mix well, pour
into the fermenting bucket. Add cold water until the total amount is
6 liters.

>2.  Varmistaudutaan, ett(ad) sahtivierteen l(ad)mp(od)tila on 25-30o
>C.  Oluthiiva turvotetaan tilkossa haaleaa vett(ad) noin 10 min. enner
>kuin se lis(ad)t(ad)(ad)n sahtivierteeseen.

Make sure the temperature of the broth is between 25-30 deg. C. The
yeast must be started in a small amount of water (with said temperature)
about 10 minutes before adding it in the broth.

>
>3.  K(ad)ymisastia peitet(ad)(ad)n puhtaala liinalla.  Jos muovkanisteria
>tai lasipulloa k(ad)ytet(ad)(ad)n, tulpan tilalle pannaan vesilukko tai
>pumpulitukko.  Astia pidet(ad)(ad)n nolm 20o C l(ad)mp(od)tilassa.
>

Cover bucket with a clean cloth. If you use dedicated equipment, use
one of those bubbling tops or a piece of cotton instead of a plug.
Keep the broth at ca. 20 deg. C.

>4.  K(ad)yminen alkaa vuorokauden kuluessa ja p(ad)(ad)ttyy noin 2-3
>vrk:n sis(ad)ll(ad).
>

The fermenting starts within a day and lasts for 2-3 days.

>5.  Sahti pullotetaan puhtaisiin pulloikin tai muovikanistereihin,
>jotka siirret(ad)(ad)n kylm(ad)(ad)n.

The Sahti is to be bottled in clean bottles or plastic jerry cans and
moved to cold storage.

>
>6.  Sahit on valmista nautittavaksi noin viikon kuluttua.  Pohjalle
>laskeutuonut sakka v(ad)ltet(ad)(ad)n kaatamalla varovasti.
>

Sahti is ready to be enjoyed within a week. The Sahti 
should be decanted to avoid stirring the precipitate at the bottom.

>T(ad)rke(ad)(ad):  kaikkien v(ad)lineiden oltava ehdottomasti
>puhtaita.
>

Important: all equipment should be cleaned before brewing.

Hope this is in line with other possible translations.
Standard disclaimers apply.

Jyrki

(Real Men make their sahti out of pure raw materials, not extract.)




-- 
Jyrki Kimmel, VTT Medical Engineering Laboratory kimmel@cortex.sai.vtt.fi
signature in proposal in peer review phase (PPRP). Proposed motto:
"El{m{ on kivaa!" ("Life is fun!")  -Kaisa-Maria, age 3
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: suopanki@stekt7.oulu.fi (Heikki T. Suopanki)
Subject: Re: Keskustelua suomalaisten asemasta Ruotsissa
Reply-To: heikki.suopanki@phoenix.oulu.fi
Organization: University of Oulu, Dept. of EE, Finland
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 17:16:19 GMT


Jarmo    By our policy, in this is that arabic is his mothertongue and it is
Jarmo    in his diploma too.  Finnish is just finnish.  So a pupil going to
Jarmo    a school in Finland and has for instance arabic as a mother tongue
Jarmo    studies arabic as a mother tongue, it is called his mother tongue
Jarmo    in our byrocracy not a home language.

Is this really the case? Where did you get the information?
When I was in school there was a girl whose mother tongue was not
Finnish. She spoke very good Finnish tho and had the same classes as
everybody else. 
I didn't see her diploma, but I doubt there was "Suomi"
(Finnish) instead of "[idinkieli" (mother tongue) in her diploma.

Btw, I don't think there are many schools in Finland where you can
study  Arabic.

Btw2, the term "{idinkieli" can be as offending (or more) as you claim
the term "home language" is. I mean the cases when it really
isn't the language your mother speaks.

-Heikki
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: kissa@cortex.sai.vtt.fi     (Kimmo Saarinen)
Subject: Re: Tasa-arvopuheet ovat osoittautuneet korulauseiksi
Organization: Technical Research Centre of Finland (VTT/SAI)
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 10:13:01 GMT

In article <By5nys.D95@news.chalmers.se> 
d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se (Bertil Jonell) writes:
>In article <TORKEL.92Nov21162256@bast.sics.se> 
>torkel@sics.se (Torkel Franzen) writes:
>>  Going on and on about how
>>silly it is to compare X to Nazi Germany is almost as silly as the comparison
>>itself.
>
>  Well, the next time he compares Sweden to whatever, I won't bother writing 
>anything about it. I will just crosspost it to the appropriate newsgroups and
>see what the reaction is.

Yes, go ahead and do it.

At the moment when I see here a vast amount of those crossposted
answers I'll start to send you private email, one in every hour
24 hours per day, seven days per week. After one week I'll change
the schedule : you'll get two personal messages per hour. After
two weeks I double it again.

Do you really want it ? The only difference is that by doing so
that you are threatening to do you also force this audience to 
suffer from the increasing noise in this newsgroup. I'll just
overload your own mailbox ...

I announce this publicitely because in my interests is to keep 
this newsgroup as decent forum and the possible consequencies 
from the Bertil's action can be that this newsgroup is soon
full of ill natured hate mail etc. We don't want it ?

	k@	(kcat)
-- 
========================================================================
Kimmo Saarinen                         ! e-mail  kissa@cortex.sai.vtt.FI
Technical Research Centre of Finland   ! ... here ... and there ...
Medical Engineering Laboratory         !       ... usually nowhere ...
From: tml@tik.vtt.fi (Tor Lillqvist)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Keskustelua suomalaisten asemasta Ruotsissa
Date: 16 Nov 92 18:24:53
Organization: Technical Research Centre of Finland, Laboratory for Information
	Processing (VTT/TIK)
NNTP-Posting-Host: tiuhti.tik.vtt.fi
In-reply-to: hberg@polisci.umn.edu's message of Mon, 16 Nov 1992 15:34:52 GMT

In article <hberg.207@polisci.umn.edu> hberg@polisci.umn.edu (Bob
Hammarberg) writes (translating Jarmo's latest article):

   "In my opinion, my personal opinion to be sure, the comparison of Sweden to 
   Nazi Germany is not far fetched.  In Sweden only one language is elevated 
   above all others to the status of mother-tongue - as if it were a superior 
   "Arian" language.  All other languages are inferior; they are called home 
   languages.  In Germany, the same kind of policies were pursued during the 
   30s.  Finland's conscience is clear in this respect; Sweden's isn't.  

I didn't know that the Nazis' policien was mainly about what to call
subjects at school, I must have been misinformed.

So, Jarmo says that if a pupil in a Finnish school whose mother tongue
is for instance Arabic somehow could manage to get some education in
this language, her school diploma (?) marks for "{idinkieli" (mother
tongue) would refer to her knowledge of Arabic?  Yeah, sure.
--
Tor Lillqvist,
working, but not speaking, for the Technical Research Centre of Finland,
Laboratory for Information Processing (VTT/TIK).
From: d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se (Bertil Jonell)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Moms on top of import duty
Date: 19 Nov 92 09:18:57 GMT
Organization: Chalmers Tekniska Lekskola, G|teborg, G|taland

In article <Bxurx0.Ks6@news.chalmers.se> d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se (Bertil Jonell) writes:
>  My recollection is that you don't have to pay moms (or import duty) if
>you have used the item during your stay abroad?

  Imagine my culture chock when I went to the US and saw the customs form that
US citizens have to fill in after travelling abroad.

  It demanded that they listed every single bloody item they had bought
outside the US and the exact value of each, and said that the customs would
then deduct the free amount ($100 I think) and tell them how much they have to
pay!

  If Swedish customs started behaving in that way there would be a 
revolution.

-bertil-
--
"Ack! Phht!" - Bill the Prez
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: kimmel@cortex.sai.vtt.fi     (Jyrki Kimmel)
Subject: Re: Help with homebrew translation
Organization: Technical Research Centre of Finland (VTT/SAI)
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 06:30:29 GMT

In article <1992Nov17.170045.9233@bmerh85.bnr.ca> cav@bnr.ca (Rick Cavasin) writes:
>Jyrki writes:
>
>>(Real Men make their sahti out of pure raw materials, not extract.)
>
>As a homebrewer who loves to see (and sometimes try) unusual recipes,
>I would love to see your recipe!  Please Post!
>
>Rick C.

'recipes' are kept secret for generations, or else are publicized in
obscure monographs and in marginal languages. That's how I learned mine,
by reading Kai Linnil{'s "Pihalla kasvaa lammaskaali" ("The
mutton cabbage stew grows on your back yard"). The chapter about sahti is 
only good for a pointer towards making the real stuff, so I have
experimented and learned it the hard way. The tradition is now 2 generations
deep. I don't know if my kids ever will make sahti, but they have followed
the proceess 'hands-on' from the start.

Basically, you start by lighting a fire under a full boiling stove in your
sauna by the lake. (These all are essential.) (Not the stove that has
rocks on it - I mean the one that has a large steel boiling cauldron
embedded in masonry.) Pour 20 kg barley malt and 2 kg rye malt in
covered large vats. When the water boils, add some on the malt gradually over
5-6 hours so that the malt keeps at about 50 deg. C. Meanwhile,
prepare the filter trough. This is a half cylinder about 2 meters long,  
traditionally filled with straw. I use a metal grid on which I 
suspend a cotton cloth. On the filter, there should be an even layer of 
juniper twigs (with berries).

When the malt has been moistened as described above, it should taste
pretty sweet. It is then poured in the cauldron and cooked for about 
30 minutes. All the malt and the liquid with it is then poured over the
filter to form a level layer on the filter bed. Liquid that comes through is 
collected, and boiled once more. This is then poured on the filter, with hops,
more water is boiled, and added gradually on the filter. All the
liquid (about 40 liters) is now collected.

A tablespoon of household yeast is added to one glass of the brew, allowed
to set for about 10 minutes, then poured in the brew. Fermenting takes
about a week, and another week of storage in plastic canisters 
should be allowed.

I make sahti about once every summer. Every new batch is better than
what you remember from last year's...

Enjoy.

Jyrki
-- 
Jyrki Kimmel, VTT Medical Engineering Laboratory kimmel@cortex.sai.vtt.fi
signature in proposal in peer review phase (PPRP). Proposed motto:
"El{m{ on kivaa!" ("Life is fun!")  -Kaisa-Maria, age 3
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: jkp@cs.HUT.FI (Jyrki Kuoppala)
Subject: Re: What's wrong with Finnish? (WAS: Pakko
Reply-To: jkp@cs.HUT.FI (Jyrki Kuoppala)
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1992 21:51:02 GMT

In article <TORKEL.92Nov20115405@isis.sics.se>, torkel@sics (Torkel Franzen) writes:
>   3) Tornedalsfinskans st{llning. Detta {r ocks} en meningsfull
>fr}ga, men en fr}ga som bara ang}r svenskarna.

Sorry, not true.  It does concern the people who live on either side
of the border, ie. both Finnish and Swedish citizens.  It's an area
with a common culture which just happens to be divided by the state
border.

//Jyrki
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: kimmel@cortex.sai.vtt.fi     (Jyrki Kimmel)
Subject: Re: Help with homebrew translation
Organization: Technical Research Centre of Finland (VTT/SAI)
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 06:42:13 GMT

In article <1992Nov18.155154.5337@bmerh85.bnr.ca> cav@bnr.ca (Rick Cavasin) writes:
>Thanks for sharing your recipe!

Like I said, experiment is needed to make it work. So, it's not
a recipe as you find on the back of a Jell-O Cheesekcake package.

>
>I had been afraid that the grain would be entirely Rye malt
>(which I had heard was used extensively in Finland but is, as
>far as I know, unavailable in Canada - could try malting the
>rye myself I suppose - or mashing unmalted rye with the barley
>malt - hmmmm).

We make non-alcoholic 'homebrew', 'kotikalja' from rye malt.

>
>As I read your recipe, it appears to more or less parallel
>standard all grain brewing procedures, except that you don't
>boil the hops in the brew, but pour the brew through the hops
>(and juniper twigs).  This would extract the wonderful hop flavour
>and aroma without much of the bitterness.  Unless some bitterness
>is contributed by the juniper twigs, I would expect your sahti
>to be more aromatic/spicy than bitter (correct?).

Well, it depends. Sometimes I have more hops, sometimes less,
sometimes I boil them briefly with the added water, sometimes I add
the hops in the cauldron before pouring the stuff on the filter.
If you use too much juniper, it's really bitter.

>
>One thing, after you collect and boil the first runnings, you
>say that you pour it onto the filter once more (with hops).
>Does the filter still have the juniper twigs on it?  Are the
>grains still on it?  Do you just put the hops on top and then pour
>your brew through it?  Is the malt crushed or is it whole
>grains?

Yes, everything is still on the filter. Actually, most of the 
filtering is done through the mush itself, and thus maltose is
extracted from the grains via the slow filtering of scalding
water.

The malt is pretty coarse. I think it is moderately crushed, but there are
quite a few whole grains in it. Can't say for sure.

>
>It sounds like we might have an analagous brew here in North
>America called Spruce beer, made with new sprouts of spruce
>branches.  I've never tasted it though.

Interesting!

>
>Have to start scouring the countryside for juniper bushes I guess ;).
>

Depends where you look. Don't use Utah juniper, it's a completely 
different plant. Use the one that has blue berries in springtime.
(I collect mine during the summer, so the berries are dried, or then
raw on the twigs). It's better to use new, soft, tender twigs,
and not to store them for a long time, but use them fresh.

>Cheers,
>Rick C.


I'd like to know if you ever make the stuff!

Jyrki


-- 
Jyrki Kimmel, VTT Medical Engineering Laboratory kimmel@cortex.sai.vtt.fi
signature in proposal in peer review phase (PPRP). Proposed motto:
"El{m{ on kivaa!" ("Life is fun!")  -Kaisa-Maria, age 3
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: jafitv@termo.unit.no (Jan Arne Fagertun)
Subject: Re: Keskustelua suomalaisten asemasta Ruotsissa 
Reply-To: jafitv@termo.unit.no (Jan Arne Fagertun)
Organization: SINTEF, Norwegian Institute of Technology
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 92 08:33:05 GMT

In article <hberg.207@polisci.umn.edu>, hberg@polisci.umn.edu (Bob Hammarberg) writes:
|> 
|> In article <1992Nov16.084221.25198@jyu.fi> ryyti@jyu.fi (Jarmo Ryyti) writes:
|> 
|> 
|> 
|> >Mielest{ni, tosin vain omasta mielest{ni,Ruotsin vertaus Nazi-Saksaan ei ole 
|> >[.....]
|> 
|> >Terveisin,
|> 
|> >Jarmo
|> 
|> A translation for you slobs who haven't bothered to learn Finnish:
|> 
|> "In my opinion, my personal opinion to be sure, the comparison of Sweden to 
|> Nazi Germany is not far fetched.  In Sweden only one language is elevated 
|> above all others to the status of mother-tongue - as if it were a superior 
|> "Arian" language.  All other languages are inferior; they are called home 
|> languages.  In Germany, the same kind of policies were pursued during the 
|> 30s.  Finland's conscience is clear in this respect; Sweden's isn't.  That's 
|> why the Swedes reacted with personal insults.  Perhaps the reason is that 
|> they want to see the flaws in others, but not close to home, in their own 
|> nest."
|> 
|> Oh, well.....
--


Oh well......

I am close to starting to use the "kill" option of my newsreader
(mxrn)


+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Jan Arne Fagertun, Research Engineer, SINTEF Division Thermodynamics|
| E-mail: Jan.A.Fagertun@termo.unit.no                                |
| Phone : +47 7 596890                            Fax  : +47 7 944513 |
| Mail  : SINTEF/Varmeteknikk, 7034 Trondheim, Norway                 |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
From: tml@tik.vtt.fi (Tor Lillqvist)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Keskustelua suomalaisten asemasta Ruotsissa
Date: 17 Nov 92 16:54:15
Organization: Technical Research Centre of Finland, Laboratory for Information
	Processing (VTT/TIK)
NNTP-Posting-Host: tiuhti.tik.vtt.fi
In-reply-to: ryyti@jyu.fi's message of Tue, 17 Nov 1992 11:10:34 GMT

In article <1992Nov17.111034.14483@jyu.fi> ryyti@jyu.fi (Jarmo Ryyti) writes:

   By our policy, in this is that arabic is his mothertongue and it is
   in his diploma too.  Finnish is just finnish.  So a pupil going to
   a school in Finland and has for instance arabic as a mother tongue
   studies arabic as a mother tongue, it is called his mother tongue
   in our byrocracy not a home language.

Oh come on Jarmo, do you really believe this?  You claim that:

- if a pupil in Finnish "peruskoulu" has Arabic as mother tongue
- she gets education in this language instead of Finnish or Swedish
- her diploma says "mother tongue: x", referring to Arabic?

Of course this is not the case. I am also quite sure that if you ask
immigrants in Finland and Sweden (whose mother tongue is not Swedish
or Finnish) to compare which country provides better education in the
immigrant children's mother tongue, the answer is Sweden. After all,
Sweden has so many more immigrants for such a long time that this
matter has had to been taken care of (the "home language" education).

What about a pupil in a Finnish school who has English as mother
tongue (but knows Finnish also, so she can take part in the
education). To her "English" is taught as a "foreign language" Gack!
Or even worse, maybe because she known English already, she won't even
choose English as a "Foreign Language".  Now the British and Americans
will start comparing Finland to Nazi Germany! Finnish schools call all
other languages than Finnish or Swedish "Foreign"! Wer have been
exposed!
--
Tor Lillqvist,
working, but not speaking, for the Technical Research Centre of Finland,
Laboratory for Information Processing (VTT/TIK).
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: jafitv@termo.unit.no (Jan Arne Fagertun)
Subject: Re: Deaths among orienteers
Reply-To: jafitv@termo.unit.no (Jan Arne Fagertun)
Organization: SINTEF, Norwegian Institute of Technology
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 92 22:49:08 GMT


Today it's said in news that even one or two norwegian orienteers have
died from heart attack, probably caused by the TWAR virus, some three
years ago. Both had been competing in Sweden.


+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Jan Arne Fagertun, Research Engineer, SINTEF Division Thermodynamics|
| E-mail: Jan.A.Fagertun@termo.unit.no                                |
| Phone : +47 7 596890                            Fax  : +47 7 944513 |
| Mail  : SINTEF/Varmeteknikk, 7034 Trondheim, Norway                 |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic