HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mayo@CS.UTK.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: "One Bread, One Body", Nov 22
Date: 17 Nov 92 19:02:25 GMT
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                    Sunday, November 22, 1992
                         Christ the King

II Samuel 5:1-3                                 Psalm 122
Colossians 1:12-20                              Luke 23:35-43

                           KING JESUS

"There was an inscription over His head: 'THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS.'"
 --Luke 23:38

On this last Sunday of the Church year, we totally commit our lives to Jesus
and acknowledge Him as our King and the King of kings.  Like the good thief,
we may have ignored Jesus' kingship for years or even our entire lives, but we
can repent today.  And when we say, "Jesus, remember me when you enter upon
your reign" (Lk 23:42), Jesus will also reply to us: "I assure you: this day
you will be with Me in paradise." (Lk 23:43)  Today we can make or renew a
commitment to Jesus, which will have eternal significance.

Some people think they don't need to commit their lives to Jesus.  They are
"good people" who go to church, pray, and have decent morals.  But all this is
only part of being a subject of King Jesus.  He rightly demands not just
good, prayerful, decent people but people begotten from above (Jn 3:3), new
creations (II Cor 5:17), children of God (Jn 1:12).  To be born again, made
new, and become children of our heavenly Father, we must be baptized into
King Jesus (Rom 6:3) and live that new life by faith.  This faith will be
expressed in total commitment of our lives to King Jesus.


Prayer:  King Jesus, thank You for the ultimate privilege of being Your
         subject.  I give all to You.

Promise: "He rescued us from the power of darkness and brought us into the
          kingdom of His beloved Son.  Through Him we have redemption, the
          forgiveness of our sins."  Col 1:13-14

Praise:  "All hail, King Jesus!  All hail, Emmanuel!  King of kings, Lord of
          lords, bright Morning Star."
-----
From "One Bread, One Body", reproduced with permission.
From: jocallag@vyasa.helios.nd.edu (john ocallaghan)
Subject: Re: Priest shortage
Organization: OUC, University of Notre Dame
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 15:21:55 GMT

In article <5qwguB2w165w@mintir.new-orleans.la.us> elendil@mintir.new-orleans.la.us (Edward J. Branley) writes:
>>
>> "In the judgement of the Catholic Church, declared by Leo XIII in the
>> bull _Apostolicas Curae_ of 1896, 'ordinations performed according to
>> the Anglican rite have been and are completely null and void.'" --
>> NEW CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA v.1, p.525
>> -------
>> Marty Helgesen
>> Bitnet: mnhcc@cunyvm   Internet: mnhcc@cunyvm.cuny.edu
>>
>> "Just say know to Gnosticism"
>
>Hmmm...if this is the case, why have Anglican priests been accepted into the
>Roman Rite without being re-ordained?
>

It was my understanding, that because of the confusion over whether the Anglican\
Church preserved the correct form for ordination, at least in many cases orders
or not validly conferred.  But there may be case when they are, if the "priest"
can trace his ordination through some line of episcopacy that preserved 
valid orders.  Because of the general confusion, it was my understanding that
an Episcopal or Anglican priest is conditionally ordained when he enters
the Roman Catholic Church, much like condtional baptism if their is a doubt
as tot the validity of a previous baptism.  I may be completely incorrect here.
But I do not think it is as simple as "they are not ordained when they enter"
I think they are "conditionally ordained."
Anyone with the facts out there?

Peace,
John
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Steve Creps)
Subject: Re: New Catechism
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 18:20:13 GMT

In article <Bxs8Kz.3H1@acsu.buffalo.edu> v201lrxa@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (NOWHERE MAN) writes:
>I just heard on NBC Nightly News that the Church will be introducing
>a new Catechism that is supposed to contain the biggest changes since
>the Council of Trent. Some of the new sins described within are tax
>evasion and genetic manipulation. Anyone have any more details?

   Well, I don't know about it having "big changes," because no
doctrine is changing.  The changes will likely be in application of
always-held doctrines to new (modern) situations (i.e. obviously the
technology allowing genetic manipulation was not available in the
Sixteenth Century).

   The catechism is due to be released December 6 (if I remember
correctly), according to our archdiocesan newspaper.  It is as yet
unknown whether the English and other translations (of the original
French) will be released at the same time.

   The catechism itself is not directed at most Catholics, rather
being directed at bishops and catechists/authors for use in deriving
local catechisms.

-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
Steve Creps, Indiana University
creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Fri, 20 Nov 1992 15:30:05 -0500
From:         mayo@CS.UTK.EDU
Subject:      "One Bread, One Body", Nov. 24

                    Tuesday, November 24, 1992
                Andrew Dung-Lac, Priest and Martyr,
                      and Companions, Martyrs

Revelation 14:14-19         Psalm 96                Luke 21:5-11

                        UTTER DESTRUCTION

"It will all be torn down." --Luke 21:6

Jesus accurately prophesied that the temple, the great wonder of the world
and the center of Judaism, would be torn down.  In fact, almost everything
will be destroyed.  Every dynasty, empire, government, and nation will fold.
"The world as we know it is passing away" (I Cor 7:31).  Even "the heavens
will vanish with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire" (II Pt 3:10).
"Shaken, created things will pass away" (Heb 12:27).

"Since everything is to be destroyed in this way, what sort of men must you
not be!  How holy in your conduct and devotion, looking for the coming of the
day of God and trying to hasten it!" (II Pt 3:11-12)  "So, beloved, while
waiting for this, make every effort to be found without stain or defilement,
and at peace in His sight" (II Pt 3:14).  "Wherefore, we who are receiving
the unshaking kingdom should hold fast to God's grace" (Heb 12:28).

Jesus said: "The heavens and earth will pass away, but My words will not
pass" (Lk 21:33).


Prayer:  Father, may I "not be working for perishable food but for food that
         remains unto life eternal" (Jn 6:27).

Promise: "The One sitting on the cloud wielded His sickle over all the earth
          and reaped the earth's harvest."  Rv 14:16

Praise:  Sally was healed by Jesus of several phobeas.
-----
From "One Bread, One Body", reproduced with permission.
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Date:         Tue, 17 Nov 1992 20:06:37 -0700
From:         WERLING <awerling@NMSU.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Homosexuality

On Mon, 16 Nov 1992, Haig Kasab wrote:

> I think it is dangerous to assume that homosexuality is some kind of curse
> or disease that can be cured through exorcism or psychotherapy or what have
> you.

Dare I say it?  Ditto!

Andrew Werling on Planet Yip  awerling@dante.nmsu.edu  yip@acca.nmsu.edu
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Thu, 19 Nov 1992 11:58:37 EST
From:         "Brian Tillman, Smiths Industries, VAX Support,
              x8425" <tillman@SWDEV.SI.COM>
Subject:      Re: Cd. Mahony on the new Missal

Bob von Buelow quotes Gordon's post:

>Proposed new translation:               Current version:
>
>Our Father in heaven,                   Our Father, who art in heaven,
>hallowed be your name,                  hallowed by thy name,
>your kingdom come,                      thy kingdom come,
>your will be done,                      thy will be done,
>on earth as in heaven.                  on earth as it is in heaven.
>Give today our daily bread.             Give us this day our daily bread.
>Forgive us our sins                     And forgive us our trespasses
>as we forgive those who sin against us. as we forgive those who trespass
>Save us from the time of trial          against us.
>and deliver us from evil.               And lead us not into temptation,
>For the kingdom, the power, and the     but deliver us from evil.
>glory are yours

Guess what!  The translation on the right has been in use in the Episcopal
church since the 1978 BCP was authorized.  It's the only one we use at our
parish.

-----------------------------+--------------------------------
 Brian Tillman               | Internet: tillman@swdev.si.com
 Smiths Industries, Inc.     |           tillman_brian@si.com
 4141 Eastern Ave., MS129    | Hey, I said this stuff myself.
 Grand Rapids, MI 49518-8727 | My company has no part in it.
-----------------------------+--------------------------------
From: elendil@mintir.new-orleans.la.us (Edward J. Branley)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Re: Priest shortage...
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 92 20:48:52 CST
Organization: Minas Tirith BBS (Public Access Usenet for New Orleans)

mjsmith@cac.washington.edu (Martha Smith ) writes:

> >
> > Wait.  Africans you say?  Won't work, at least down here.  I'll be willing
> > bet that there are many parishes which would fold before accepting a black
> > priest on a regular basis.
> >
> PLEASE DON'T TELL ME THIS IS A CHRISTIAN ATTITUDE - MAYBE WE NEED MISSIONARIE
> >

Oh, believe me, it's not a Christian attitude.  Unfortunately, it's a reality.
I had dinner at my parents house and raised this very issue with them.  My mom
said point blank that there were parishes that would accept a woman priest
before they would accept a black priest.  This coming from a woman (my mom)
who would not accept the Eucharist from a lay person for at least two years
because she didn't agree with the concept.



|Edward J. Branley         elendil@mintir.new-orleans.la.us|
|Seashell Software, Metairie, LA            +1-504-455-5087|
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Apparently-To: catholic@american.edu
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Fri, 20 Nov 1992 05:01:43 PST
From:         "John R. Covert 20-Nov-1992 0756" <covert@COVERT.ENET.DEC.COM>
Subject:      Re: priest shortage

>Since the Anglicans are making themselves available as guinea
>pigs, we can use them to see what happens to their numbers of priests.

The Episcopal Church has a clergy glut, with many, many more clergy
than we need.

I've posted this data before:

Under the leadership of the last 30 years, the Episcopal Church has
lost one-third of her membership.  Our failure to gain proportionately
with the growth of the population combine to a staggering loss of
2,250,000 members.

The number of clergy has increased by 62%, from 9079 to 14,694.  Some
have said, that if the trend continues, we will have more clergy than
members.

Yet it is a fact that those churches which teach the Word of God clearly
and strongly (Roman Catholic and Fundamentalist) are growing, sometimes
at an amazing rate.

Source: "The Episcopal Church in Crisis", Episcopal Synod of America.

I'm also told that only about one-third of postulants in the Diocese
of Massachusetts are found, under examination, to have vocations.  The
remainder are not admitted.

/john
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: fusco@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (Andrew Fusco)
Subject: Re: Cd. Mahony on the new Missal 
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 20:10:06 GMT

bdboyle@erenj.com (Bryan D. Boyle) writes:

>>>                        The Lord's Prayer
>>>
>>>Proposed new translation:               Current version:
>>>
>>>Our Father in heaven,                   Our Father, who art in heaven,
>>>hallowed be your name,                  hallowed by thy name,
>>>your kingdom come,                      thy kingdom come,
>>>your will be done,                      thy will be done,
>>>on earth as in heaven.                  on earth as it is in heaven.
>>>Give today our daily bread.             Give us this day our daily bread.
>>>Forgive us our sins                     And forgive us our trespasses
>>>as we forgive those who sin against us. as we forgive those who trespass
>>>Save us from the time of trial          against us.
>>>and deliver us from evil.               And lead us not into temptation,
>>>For the kingdom, the power, and the     but deliver us from evil.
>>>glory are yours
>>>now and forever.
>>>
>>
>>Gordon, thanks for posting this.  I was surprised to find so few changes
>>in the Our Father based on the reaction.  Looks like the same prayer
>>to me, and I don't think the changes are sufficient to cause a 
>>generation gap.  With all the hoopla I thought maybe it had changed from
>>Our Father to Our Creator or something. 
>>
>IMO, the older version sounds better, the new one sounds like a news 
>story (I used to edit news stories for ABC...:)).  Is nothing sacred
>anymore?

I know. When one looks over the few revisions they actually did make, one
wonders why they felt it necessary to come up with a revised Lord's
Prayer in the first place. I don't exactly sense an aversion to the more
traditional phraseology. Besides, don't these people have better things
to do, anyway?

-Andrew
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: jocallag@darwin.helios.nd.edu (john ocallaghan)
Subject: Re: Priest shortage...
Organization: OUC, University of Notre Dame
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 20:48:20 GMT

In article <L0RFuB4w165w@mintir.new-orleans.la.us> elendil@mintir.new-orleans.la.us (Edward J. Branley) writes:
>
>Now, the debate over the ordination of women aside, it seems to me that the
>Vatican and the American bishops should wake up and realize that just how much
>of a problem situation we have here.  Is anyone aware of any research which has
>been done to try to figure out just why the major decline in the number of
>priests?  Of course, instinct tells me that the celibacy requirement is
>probably the number one factor, but I'm wondering if there have been any real
>studies on this.
>
>While the debate over women in the priesthood should continue, it's obvious
>that it probably won't be resolved in the RCC by the end of the century.  That
>being the case, we need to initiate some drastic actions to increase the call
>to vocations.  If women are administrators in 200+ parishes, the problem of
>priestless parishes is already a grave situation.  Rather than spending nine
>years bickering over an inadequate answer to the call for women priests (the
>Bishop's Pastoral Letter), perhaps the time would have been better spent
>figuring out ways to increase the number of *male* priests, before we are left
>with no priests at all.
>

It might come as a blow to our American pride, since after all we are the Church are we not, and what is happening in other parts of the world with the other
850000000 Catholics not present in the U.S. doesn't really matter, but I have
read in various publications over the last few years, that the Vatican is 
considering sending missionaries from Africa to the U.S.  By that I do not
mean Westerners who have been functioning as missionaries in Africa, but native
Africans, since Africa has no shortage, and in fact has an overabundance of
priests.

Peace,
John

>
>
>|Edward J. Branley         elendil@mintir.new-orleans.la.us|
>|Seashell Software, Metairie, LA            +1-504-455-5087|


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Date:         Thu, 19 Nov 1992 08:31:48 -0500
From:         URSIC@ALF.CS.HH.AB.COM
Subject:      RE: Jesus and opinion polls

Steve B.
I agree that in the passage you quoted, Jesus is saying that unless you
eatHis flesh and drink His blood, you will not be saved, now where does
it say this only applies to men? Once again, you are trying to tie all
the "sins" of the world in with the ordination of women. I have already
conceded that the first twelve called by the incarnate Christ were male,
why must we conclude from that, that He will never call a female?
You know, if I didn't know better, I'd say you were actually trying to
compare me to Judas:-) ..and speaking of that, the passage indicates that
Jesus called Judas a "devil", was Judas the incarnate Satan? Butthen again,
why don't we try to stick to one topic:-) -J.J.
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Date:         Tue, 17 Nov 1992 15:06:40 EST
From:         "Brian Tillman, Smiths Industries, VAX Support,
              x8425" <tillman@SWDEV.SI.COM>
Subject:      RE: Separating our kids from public schools

Brent Winiger writes:

>I disagree Brian, and cite as evidence the breakdown of morals, relationships,
>etc. in our society.  The schools are a fundamental under-pinning of society.
>They say to the kids who we are as a society, what we think, and what we
>believe.  Because children often spend more time at school than with their
>parents, those children take a part of their identity from the schools.  That
>is difficult for parents who disagree with the philosophies of the public
>schools to compete with.  If we believe that as parents, teaching good values
>to our kids can elevate them, we must also believe that teaching bad values
>can degrade them.  When we teach kids that divorce is something that is
>expected, that values are irrelevant, etc., that is going to have an impact on
>their view of how the world is and should be.

It's not the schools causing the "moral breakdown" (for which I see no
compelling evidence, by the way).  If there is a moral breakdown, it's because
parents are abdicating their responsibilites.  From my observations, the schools
aren't teaching "bad" values.  They aren't teaching any values, as well they
should not.  That's my job as a parent (and yours, too, if you are a parent).
For example, divorce isn't happening because people are being taught it's
expected.  Rather, divorce happens and kids are taught they'll encounter other
kids whose parents are divorced.  This is just recognizing reality, not
modifying it.

>I have no doubt you are a good parent Brian.  I think you're right that
>parental involvement is critical.  Maybe if more parents like yourself were
>as involved, we wouldn't be having discussions like this.

My point exactly.  The responsibility falls squarely on the parents.  I'm glad
you seem to agree, but if you do, you seem to be somewhat at odds with yourself,
judging from the first paragraph above.


-----------------------------+--------------------------------
 Brian Tillman               | Internet: tillman@swdev.si.com
 Smiths Industries, Inc.     |           tillman_brian@si.com
 4141 Eastern Ave., MS129    | Hey, I said this stuff myself.
 Grand Rapids, MI 49518-8727 | My company has no part in it.
-----------------------------+--------------------------------
From: elendil@mintir.new-orleans.la.us (Edward J. Branley)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Re: Priest shortage...
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 92 13:59:41 CST
Organization: Minas Tirith BBS (Public Access Usenet for New Orleans)

jocallag@vyasa.helios.nd.edu (john ocallaghan) writes:

> In article <sTwguB3w165w@mintir.new-orleans.la.us> elendil@mintir.new-orleans
> >
> >On a side note, that 'American pride' you mention isn't what worries the
> >Vatican.  It's the American pocketbooks that do make a difference.  The Vati
> >ignores the US at its peril, like the United Nations does.  If financial
> >support for the RCC dwindles here in the US, the shockwave will be felt all
> >way back to the Holy See.
>
> Do you have any inside sources to back this up.  I guess I'm not so cynical.

No, I don't have the stats any longer.  I had read an article about a year ago
which mentioned that Peter's Pence donations from the US make up a very
significant portion of that fund.  Also, given the large amounts of donations
made to secular charities in this country, it's safe (IMHO) to apply that to
the various Catholic charities.

> >
> >Wait.  Africans you say?  Won't work, at least down here.  I'll be willing t
> >bet that there are many parishes which would fold before accepting a black
> >priest on a regular basis.
>
> My wife's family is part of a parish in Portland Oregon that in the early
> fifties was placed under interdict for refusing to accept a black pastor.
> Thankfully, my in-laws were not part of the parish at the time.
> "Vee haf ways of makink you talk."
>

I don't think it would come to interdict down here, but a black priest trying
to minister in an all-white parish would certainly be frozen out.



|Edward J. Branley         elendil@mintir.new-orleans.la.us|
|Seashell Software, Metairie, LA            +1-504-455-5087|
From: elendil@mintir.new-orleans.la.us (Edward J. Branley)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Re: Priest shortage...
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 92 21:57:03 CST
Organization: Minas Tirith BBS (Public Access Usenet for New Orleans)

jocallag@darwin.helios.nd.edu (john ocallaghan) writes:

> In article <L0RFuB4w165w@mintir.new-orleans.la.us> elendil@mintir.new-orleans
> >
> >Now, the debate over the ordination of women aside, it seems to me that the
> >Vatican and the American bishops should wake up and realize that just how mu
> >of a problem situation we have here.  Is anyone aware of any research which
> >been done to try to figure out just why the major decline in the number of
> >priests?  Of course, instinct tells me that the celibacy requirement is
> >probably the number one factor, but I'm wondering if there have been any rea
> >studies on this.
> >
> >While the debate over women in the priesthood should continue, it's obvious
> >that it probably won't be resolved in the RCC by the end of the century.  Th
> >being the case, we need to initiate some drastic actions to increase the cal
> >to vocations.  If women are administrators in 200+ parishes, the problem of
> >priestless parishes is already a grave situation.  Rather than spending nine
> >years bickering over an inadequate answer to the call for women priests (the
> >Bishop's Pastoral Letter), perhaps the time would have been better spent
> >figuring out ways to increase the number of *male* priests, before we are le
> >with no priests at all.
> >
>
> It might come as a blow to our American pride, since after all we are the Chu
> 850000000 Catholics not present in the U.S. doesn't really matter, but I have
> read in various publications over the last few years, that the Vatican is
> considering sending missionaries from Africa to the U.S.  By that I do not
> mean Westerners who have been functioning as missionaries in Africa, but nati
> Africans, since Africa has no shortage, and in fact has an overabundance of
> priests.
>
> Peace,
> John
>
>

Interesting idea.  We've tried that on a local level here in New Orleans,
'importing' priests from Ireland, where there also appears to be no real
shortage.  The archdiocese here would cover the expenses of the seminarian's
last two or so years, in exchange for coming here to serve.  I think the
program worked out on the whole, in spite of losing a few priests to the
temptations of secular life in America.

On a side note, that 'American pride' you mention isn't what worries the
Vatican.  It's the American pocketbooks that do make a difference.  The Vatican
ignores the US at its peril, like the United Nations does.  If financial
support for the RCC dwindles here in the US, the shockwave will be felt all the
way back to the Holy See.

Wait.  Africans you say?  Won't work, at least down here.  I'll be willing to
bet that there are many parishes which would fold before accepting a black
priest on a regular basis.




|Edward J. Branley         elendil@mintir.new-orleans.la.us|
|Seashell Software, Metairie, LA            +1-504-455-5087|
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU