From: eje@irenaeus.mlo.dec.com (Eric James Ewanco)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: resurrection question
Date: 26 Aug 92 06:15:23 GMT
Reply-To: ewanco@kalvin.enet.dec.com
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation

In article <Aug.25.01.31.21.1992.18618@athos.rutgers.edu>, Malachi.Robertson@lambada.oit.unc.edu (Malachi Robertson) writes:

> From: Malachi.Robertson@lambada.oit.unc.edu (Malachi Robertson)
> Subject: Re: resurrection question
> Date: Tue, 25 Aug 92 01:31:22 GMT+5:00
> Organization: Extended Bulletin Board Service

> Mark,
> You say the rich man and Lazarus story is not a parable.  I am curious as
> to your reason why you think this.  For myself the context seems to make
> it clear that this is a parable.  It appears to be tied in well with the
> messages before it; for example chapter 16 of Luke starts out with a story
> of a dishonest manager that begins "There was a rich man who..."  This is
> the same start for the Rich man and Lazarus tale.  Appear to end with
> messages to the pharisees.  Jesus main point is not to show what the
> afterlife will be like but to emphasize what he said verses before:  the
> contrast between how God sees things and how man sees them; and, the
> Pharisees are ignoring the Law and Prophets and the good news.

> As far as assurance goes, which was something I failed to touch on, one
> might pose the following question:  which is more comforting?  To know
> that your dead loved ones are seeing you suffer upon the earth?  Or to
> know your loved one sleeps until Jesus's power of life brings them back
> from the grave?  The doesn't really get to the heart of what the Bible
> says about what happens after life on this earth, but it is a question
> that has been posed to me before so I felt like posing it to you.

> "Malachi" Ian Robertson Brown.

Tertullian, The Soul, A.D. 208-212, 7,1.

In hell the soul of a certain man is put to grief, is punished in flames, and
suffers excruciating thirst; and it implores a drop of moisture from the finger
of a happier soul.  Do you suppose that the end of the blessed poor man and of
the miserable rich man is imaginary?  And why is the name Eleazar [Lazarus]
there if this is not an actual occurrence?  But even if it is to be regarded as
imaginary, it is still a testimony to the truth.  For if the soul had not
bodily substance, the image of a soul could not embrace the image of bodily
substance; nor would the Scriptures lie about the limbs of a body, if such did
not exist.

St. Cyprian of Carthage, To Demetrian, A.D. 252, 24

An ever-burning Gehenna and the punishment of being devoured by living flames
will consume the condemned; nor will there be any way in which the torments can
ever have respite or be at an end.  Souls along with their bodies will be
preserved for suffering in infinite agonies. . . . The grief at punishment will
then be without the fruit of repentance; weeping will be useless, and prayer
ineffectual.  Too late will they believe in eternal punishment, who would not
believe in eternal life.

The So-Called Second Letter of Clement of Rome to the Corinthians (ca. A.D.
150), 17,7:

But when they see how those who have sinned and who have denied Jesus by their
words or by their deeds are punished with terrible torture in unquenchable
fire, the just, who have done good, and who have endured tortures and have
hated the luxuries of life, will give glory to their God, saying, "There shall
be hope for him that has served God with all his heart."

St. Justin Martyr, First Apology (ca. A.D. 148-155), 52:

"...Then He will clothe the worthy in immortality; but the wicked, clothed in
eternal sensibility, He will commit to the eternal fire, along with the evil
demons."
--------------

I have more quotes that show that this is the faith of the Christian Church --
Hell is indeed a conscious torture, and the story of Lazarus and Dives is not a
parable for the simple reason that Jesus never used names in parables.

Eric
--
/=============================================================================\
| Eric Ewanco - Software Engineer     For the rash and outrageous opinions ex-|
| Digital Equipment Corp, Maynard MA  pressed herein I alone am responsible;  |
| ewanco@kalvin.enet.dec.com          they do not belong to DIGITAL(TM).      |
\==============================- 2 Th 2:15 -==================================/

[There may be a false dicotomy here.  Saying that it is a parable does
not deny that the situation described in the parable is realistic.
--clh]