From: adams@spss.com (Steve Adams)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: OCA Initiative (was: Family values defined)
Date: 16 Oct 92 20:00:14 GMT
Organization: SPSS Inc.

In article <HcwPsB6w165w@topcat> topcat!tom@tredysvr.tredydev.unisys.com (Tom Albrecht) writes:
>ae642@yfn.ysu.edu (Kelley Miller) writes:
>
>>In the United States, it is unimportant what god says when concidering action
>>of government  (see the first ammendment).
>
>This is atheist propaganda, not American jurisprudence.
Uhm, this is *CURRENT* American jursiprudence.  Check out the Supreme Court
rulings for the recent past.

>>Funny...our founding fathers WROTE the constitution.  Now, if the founding 
>>fathers felt the bible was important to governmental policy, why did they
>>bother placing the religion clause in the first ammendment?
>
>I hate to tell you this, Kelley, but nowhere does the Constitution prohibit
>the Bible from being the basis of our civil laws.  In fact, most of the laws
>on the books of the various states at the time of the writing of the
>Constitution were taken directly from the Bible ... and none of them were
>declared unconstitutional as a result of the adoption of the 1st Amendment.

This begs a question.  How many of the laws were challenged on religious
grounds?  If none were challenged, then of course none were declared
unconstitutional.  The Supreme Court does not simply rule on every law
passed or on the books.

>But then again they don't teach that fact in school anymore, now do they?
They do, but they point out that this is NOW considered to be an incorrect
methord of forming laws.

Can't you understand the fact that this isn't 1789 anymore?  It is no
longer suicidal to go against established religion.  Therefore, people do.
There have always been skeptics and unbelievers.  We don't punish them any
more, and they are simply asking that we not inflict our beliefs on them.

It is possible to have a system of values and morals that is entirely
consistant with both of these views.  I apply a certain standard to my own
life, and that of my immediate family.  I apply a different one to society
at large.  My personal one is fairly strict.  My societal one is fairly
tolerant.

>>In all the above, I see no justification for government stepping into the
>>realm of religion.  You have not made the point that either the bible or
>>the founding fathers intended the biblical law to be concidered in our form
>>of government.
>
>Read the documents for yourself.  Or is this a case of, "I've made up my
>mind so don't confuse me with the facts."

The founders were concerned with 'natural rights' endowed by "nature's God".
Why?  Because they were challenging the King of England.  The ONLY place
they could appeal was to God.

Remember, it wasn't the King who was being oppressive, it was the English
Parliament.  The Founders focused on the King for political reasons.  And
they appealed to God since only God could have authority over the King.
Complex 18th century politics.

>> If you are interested, I have a list of quotations from the founding fathers
>> concerning religion in general, complete with sourses.  i'd be happy to post
>> them if you would like.
>
>I'd rather you posted the legal statutes from the commonwealth of
>Massachusetts, for example.  Or any other set of state laws on the books
>in 1787. You might also want to share the underlying basis for those laws.
>The ratification process for many of the state constitutions are available.

The legal codes from the 18th century are irrelevent to the discussion.
The founders drew up a document that was intended to prevent the government
from oppressing the people and from establishing a state religion.
Enforcing Biblical morals is exactly identical to establishing a state
religion.

Should we jail all the Jews, Budhists, Zoroastrians, Atheists, Muslims, etc
because they refuse to honor our God?  Jail anyone who says "G*d d*mn"? 

THIS ISN'T A THEOCRACY, NOR WAS IT MEANT TO BE!

Go read what Jefferson thought of Christianity.  It's very, very interesting.

 -Steve
--
  The opinions expressed above are those of the author and not SPSS, Inc.
                         -------------------
   adams@spss.com                                  Phone: (312) 329-3522
   Steve Adams        "Space-age cybernomad"       Fax:   (312) 329-3558