From: cdt@sw.stratus.com (C. D. Tavares)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.clinton,talk.politics.guns,talk.abortion
Subject: Re: Rights and Legal Manuevering (Was Re: democratic platform)
Date: 28 Jul 92 20:35:20 GMT
Followup-To: alt.politics.clinton
Organization: Stratus Computer, Inc.

In article <1992Jul28.060136.27536@rotag.mi.org>, kevin@rotag.mi.org (Kevin Darcy) writes:
> >The militia does not today, nor has it ever, refered solely, or even 
> >primarily, to professional soldiers.
> 
> Not FEDERAL soldiers, no. Maybe not even "soldiers" or "professionals".
> But not just anyone who coincidentally knows how to shoot a firearm either...

False.

United States Code (USC)

TITLE 10--ARMED FORCES

Section 311. Militia: composition and classes

  (a) The militia of the United States consists
of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age
and, except as provided in section 313 of title
32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have
made a declaration of intention to become, citi-
zens of the United States and of female citizens
of the United States who are commissioned of-
ficers of the National Guard.
  (b) The classes of the militia are--
    (1) the organized militia, which consists of
  the National Guard and the Naval Militia;
  and
    (2) the unorganized militia, which consists
  of the members of the militia who are not
  members of the National Guard or the Naval
  Militia.

Member of the militia don't even HAVE to know how to shoot a firearm.
The unorganized militia is basically all draft-age males, regardless
of WHAT they know.

> Give me a break. "All the rights"?!?!?! Do women have the automatic right to 
> be President? To coin money? To make treaties with foreign powers? Let's be a 
> little sensible on which rights apply and which don't...

Let's be a little sensible on the differences between rights and powers.

Yes, women have the automatic right to be President, if elected, the same
as men.  No, they don't have the power to coin money or make treaties,
the same as men, unless they're the proper government functionary.  
Which of these concepts don't you understand?

> So where 
> is the applicability of the 14th to the 2nd? I see none whatsoever. The 2nd
> never refers to "citizens", only to "people", specifically, to that subset 
> of "people" belonging to a well-regulated militia.


[The 14th Amendment was added in the aftermath of the Civil War.]

From debates on the 14th Amendment:

"...this immortal bill of rights embodied in the Constitution rested
for its execution and enforcement hitherto upon the fidelity of the States"
"The proposition pending before the House is simply a proposition to
arm the Congress with the power to enforce this bill of rights as it
stands in the Constitution today"
                                   Rep. John Bingham (R-OH)

"It merely gives the power to Congress to enact those laws which will
to a citizen of the United States the natural rights which necessarily
pertain to citizenship."

                                Rep. F. E. Woodbridge (R-Vt.)

"Sir, I find in the Constitution of the United States an article which
declares that "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall
not be infringed," For myself, I shall insist that the reconstructed
rebels of Mississippi respect the Constitution in their local laws."

                                Rep. Sidney Clarke (R-Kan.)

"are all asserted, in some form or another, in our declaration of
organic law. But the Constitution limits only the actions of Congress,
and is not a limitation on the states. This amendment supplies that
defect, and allows Congress to correct the unjust legislation of
the states."

                                Rep Thaddeus Stevens (R-Penna)

"The great object of the first section of this amendment is, therefore,
to restrain the power of the States and compel them at all times to
respect these great fundamental guarantees."

                                Sen. Jacob Howard (R-Mich.)
                                Introduced the 14th also
                                known as the "Howard Amendment"

From this it is clear that the 14th Amendment was intended to give
the federal government the authority to compel the states to
respect the rights of all citizens as enumerated in the first
8 amendments.


> Straw man. I never said that the 2nd ONLY applied to the federal government,
> or for that matter that it ONLY applied to government at any level. I maintain 
> only that it applies exclusively to ORGANIZATIONS, specifically "well-
> regulated militia", and not just random individuals.

Sorry -- US law defines the unorganized militia as pretty random 
individuals.  In short, you're wrong de facto AND de jure.

> Does EVERYONE constitute "the press"? Does EVERYONE constitute "an 
> establishment of religion"? The BOR frequently refers to indentifiable,
> exclusive subsets of "people" -- there's no reason to think the 2nd is an 
> exception in that regard.

Strawman.  Everyone HAS freedom of the press; everyone HAS freedom of
(and/or from) religion;  everyone HAS the right to avoid self-incrimination
(even if they've never done anything incriminating!)

> There wasn't much of a NEED to analyze the 2nd until population densities
> and crime rates started skyrocketing, now was there? A de facto universal 
> RKBA made quite a bit a sense while we were pushing our frontier out to the
> Pacific Ocean, killing wild animals, trying to genocide local Indian 
> populations, etc. (no flames, please, I'm merely stating historical facts).
> Once the Industrial Revolution hit, and people started crowding together
> in cities, then the inevitable question had to be asked: is the de facto
> universal RKBA really _de jure_? And the debate began...

"No free man shall be debarred the use af arms."
                                    -Thomas Jefferson

"A militia, when properly formed, are in fact the people themselves... and
include all men capable of bearing arms...  To preserve liberty it is
essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms and be
taught alike... how to use them."
                                    -Richard Henry Lee

"The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the
United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms."
                                    -Samual Adams

"I ask, sir, what is the militia?  It is the whole people...  To disarm
the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them...
                                    -George Mason

"[The Constitution Preserves] the advantage of being armed which Americans
possess over the people of almost every other nation... [where] the
governments are afraid to trust the people with arms."
                                    -James Madison

> In other words, please don't confuse an historical lack of controversy with 
> an intellectual tacit acceptance.

Don't confuse what the drafters of the Constitution believed with what
YOU believe.
-- 

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