HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: chrisb@wang.com (Chris Bennet)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: SIG Sauer P226: Walther??
Date: 27 Jan 93 03:38:28 GMT
Organization: Wang Labs, Lowell MA, USA

cvakg001@vmsb.is.csupomona.edu writes:

##>Now, if only it wasn't almost twice as expensive as most of its
#competitors...


##Think of it as only half the cost of a Walther. (-:

#Are you speaking of the Walther 88?  If, so, have you shot one?

#I am considering the purchase of a hi-cap 9mm. My preference is to the walther
#for it's well claimed accuracy, but due to the cost, even at the price I can
#get one for is an issue. I am also considering the SIG 226 and the glock 17,
#and  maybe even a HK P7 for I pefer ambidextrous

[First let me put on my flame proof underwear...]

Like many expensive things, the quality of the Walther may be overrated. I
saw a post here a while back to that effect and a gun mag review of the new
P88 Compact that was disappointing.  The P7 on the other hand is _very_
accurate.  I think the high capacity version P7M13 is just too fat.
The P88 is available for under $900 (I saw $840 I think) - far less than the
$1500 list price.  I suspect that if you spent the difference between the
Walter and a less expensive pistol on ammo you'd have a more "accurate"
gun/man system.

Hey, remember that "kinder gentler newsgroup stuff OK. :-)

 Chris
From: sparker@zeus.calpoly.edu (Sean Lawrence Parker)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: FFL dealer
Date: 28 Jan 93 04:17:21 GMT
Organization: California Polytechnic State University, San Luis Obispo

I am looking for a FFL dealer in the central CA area I live in 
San Luis Obispo, That I would be able to 
purchase fire arms from for a small fee.
Is there any such person out there?
Sean  E-mail sparker@oboe.calpoly.edu
From: hancock@iex.iex.com (David Hancock)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Seagal's Firearms handling (was: Re: Got One! (Spring. Arm. 1911-A1))
Date: 26 Jan 93 01:51:19 GMT
Organization: IEX Corporation, Dallas

In article <PBLRXB1w164w@upchrch.UUCP> upchrch!joel@peora.sdc.ccur.com (Joel Upchurch  ) writes:
#hobbes@spacemanspiff.den.mmc.com (Stephen Camp) writes:
#
## Well, I recently saw "Marked for Death" where Seagal off's the Jamaican posse
#
[snip]
#Didn't the part where he used the silenced rifle bother you? Even with
[snip]
#
## But overall, I was impressed by the firearms handling by the good guys anyway
[snip]
#
#The best all time movie as far as correct firearms handling is
#"Tremors". If you haven't seen it, check it out; especially the rec
#room scene.
#
In the movie "The Professionals", with Lee Marvin, Burt Lancaster, Robert Ryan,
and Jack Palance (among others), I noted two things pertaining to gun handling
rarely seen:
1) the protagonists are shown *more than once* CLEANING their guns; and
2) when they shot someone they didn't empty their weapon as a matter of course;
   it is interesting to watch Mr. Marvin's character take out bad guys with
   one round fired offhand (and double action) from his revolver.
-- 
David Hancock -*- IEX Corporation	       | Email: [uunet!]iex!hancock
		  1400 Preston Road, Suite 350 | Voice: (214) 612-2600
		  Plano, Texas 75093
From: callison@kittyhawk.ecn.uoknor.edu (James P. Callison)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: shooting under water?
Date: 22 Jan 93 14:08:21 GMT
Organization: Engineering Computer Network, University of Oklahoma, Norman, OK, USA

In article <1jmv49INN3r2@mojo.eng.umd.edu> chuck@eng.umd.edu (Chuck Harris - WA3UQV) writes:
#In article <1993Jan20.204947.2230@igor.tamri.com> donb@igor.tamri.com (Don Baldwin) writes:
##Hmm.  I also wonder about the pressure aspects of firing a gun in space.
##Here on Earth (or is this Mars?), the outside of a gun barrel is being
##experiencing the pressure of 14.7 pounds per square inch.  Without that
##outside pressure, is it possible that a gun firing a maximum load in space
##would burst?
#
#Chamber pressures in long rifles are generally greater than 40,000PSI.  Another
#15PSI (which would exist if the inside of the cartridge was at atmospheric
#pressure) would never even be noticed. (for that matter, probably couldn't
#be measured!)

Actually, the question in space isn't so much the pressure; it's the
temperature. At space temperatures (average overall temperature for the
Universe is approximately 3 Kelvin, or -400-odd degrees F/-270C), metals
become very brittle, and the sudden impulse of cartridge ignition would
almost certainly be sufficient to turn it into a grenade...Of course, in
Earth orbit, or anywhere in the Solar system, for that matter, the 
temperature is much higher, but it's still colder than Antarctica in
July...(The temperature in the thermosphere is very high, due to the 
interaction with solar radiation, but the molecules are so sparse that
they actually take on ballistic trajectories rather than fluidic flow.)
(Atmospheric Thermo was one of my meteorology classes where I actually
did well :-)
Any mechanical engineers out there care to take a shot at this one? At
what temperature will typical gun steel/alloys become too brittle for
safe use?

				James

James P. Callison       Microcomputer Coordinator        OU Law Library 
Callison@aardvark.ucs.uoknor.edu   /\    Callison@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu
	constellation!biglaw!callison@mailhost.ecn.uoknor.edu
DISCLAIMER: I'm not an engineer, but I play one at work...
	"God didn't make men and women equal. Colonel Colt did."
			--Maggie Zombro, "Reasonable Doubts"
From: hollombe@polymath.tti.com (The Polymath)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Cleveland Next to Burn?
Date: 26 Jan 93 01:52:42 GMT
Organization: The Cat Factory

}[MODERATOR:  Jerry, don't forget a high visibility follower, and improved
}aftermarket magazine spring (get one of the teflon-coated, non-bind jobs.)]

Good thought.  Some nail polish ought to take care of the follower.  I'll
have to look into springs.

Speaking of which ...

The Davis SpeedFeed stock doesn't look to have room in it for any of the
off-the-shelf recoil dampers.  I'm considering constructing one myself.
After all, it's just a tube with mercury in it.  The question arises, "How
much mercury?" Half full? 3/4? 1/4?  Anyone know?

I want to install a ghostring sight on the 870's receiver.  Is this a job
I can reasonably think about doing myself?  It entails drilling and
tapping two holes.  I _may_ have access to a drill press, but nothing
fancier.

If I shouldn't do this, can anyone recommend gunsmiths in the L.A.  CA
area?

The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe, M.A., CDP, aka: hollombe@polymath.tti.com)
Head Robot Wrangler at Citicorp                "If you can't stand solitude,
3100 Ocean Park Blvd.   (310) 450-9111, x2483  perhaps others find you boring
Santa Monica, CA  90405                        as well."  -- Mark Twain
From: hes@unity.ncsu.edu (Henry E. Schaffer)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Marine Sniper
Date: 27 Jan 93 04:55:34 GMT
Organization: North Carolina State University

In article <4378@eastman.UUCP> (MJ) writes:
#
#Marine Sniper by Charles Henderson (Pub: Berkley) has been getting some
#attention on rec.guns.  This biography of Carlos Hathcock is excellent and
#a must read.   ...

  MJ is right!  But if you are still doubtful read my very favorable
book review (either in the archives or available on request.)

--henry schaffer

P.S. Carlos autographed my copy.
From: webdw@mvutd.att.com
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Atlanta Discount Ammo Address etc. Request
Date: 26 Jan 93 01:50:49 GMT
Organization: AT&T

In article <1jpfctINNej8@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> jcbphoto@engin.umich.edu (John Clinton Bolyard) writes:
#Does anyone out there have this information - I'd greatly appreciate it!

Bottom Line Shooting Supplies
P.O. Box 258
Clarksville, GA 30523
Tel.  (706) 754-9000
Fax.  (706)  754-7263
From: rboudrie@chpc.org (Rob Boudrie)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: home protection concerns
Date: 26 Jan 93 01:50:33 GMT
Organization: Center For High Perf. Computing of WPI; Marlboro Ma

In article <81665@hydra.gatech.EDU> gus@prism.gatech.edu (gus Baird) writes:
#
#In article <1993Jan24.071954.11497@chpc.org> rboudrie@chpc.org (Rob Boudrie) writes:
# >In article <JANECZKO.93Jan20222918@csd630a.erim.org> janeczko@csd630a.erim.org (Mike Janeczko) writes:
# >No matter how good you are at reloading, you're not going to match
# >the process control and monitoring of a "real" ammo factory (note
# >that I am excluding "private label small volume" ammo like MagSafe
# >where you merely buy someone else's reloading service).
#
#I think this is baloney.  What "real" factory
#

Add :

* Makes the outer jacket by melting the lead awar from a semi hackated round
  held over a propane torch.

* Places the shot in this jacket with tweezers.

* Does not use automated inspection equipment and statistical process 
  control.

* Does not load in a humidity controlled environment.

* Performs extensive analysis on each batch of powder, including 
  instrumented pressure tests.

                                        rob b.
From: callison@kittyhawk.ecn.uoknor.edu (James P. Callison)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: 10mm Glock problems?
Date: 22 Jan 93 03:59:38 GMT
Organization: Engineering Computer Network, University of Oklahoma, Norman, OK, USA

I was talking to the 'smith at the local range I frequent, and he told me
about a worrisome possibility with Glock 10mms. 
He said that the 10mm has been known to crack frames (which I knew), but
that, when it happens on a Glock, you're going to get a face full of slide,
as the part which retains the slide is exactly where the frame cracks...

Does anybody know if this has, in fact, happened? The only review I've
seen of the Glock 10mm stated that it passed the FBI life expectancy
using full-house rounds instead of FBI Lite...


				James

James P. Callison       Microcomputer Coordinator        OU Law Library 
Callison@aardvark.ucs.uoknor.edu   /\    Callison@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu
	constellation!biglaw!callison@mailhost.ecn.uoknor.edu
DISCLAIMER: I'm not an engineer, but I play one at work...
	"God didn't make men and women equal. Colonel Colt did."
			--Maggie Zombro, "Reasonable Doubts"
From: kdw@icd.ab.com (Kenneth D. Whitehead)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Mossburg 500 (was Re: BEST SHOTGUN DEFENSE ROUND?)
Date: 28 Jan 93 04:15:09 GMT
Organization: Allen-Bradley Company, Inc.

@hermes.intel.com:bhoover@pdx254.NoSubdomain.NoDomain (Bruce Hoover) writes:

# I've got a Mossburg 500 with 20" barrel, pistol grip stocks. Yes those 
# 3" shells do thump ya. I'm thinking about putting a shoulder stock on it.
# I feel 2 3/4" would get the job done too though. (30-40yds)

Ah, yes, the "Cruiser".  I bought one, except it had an 18" barrel.  
I found it totally impractical, and God help the fool that uses one
for self defense, because the prosecutor's gonna have a real easy
job portraying you as a Rambo/Charles Kursey ("Vigilante") wannabe.
That's a big price to pay just to have a gun that looks cool, IMHO.

I finally replaced the pistol grip with a shoulder stock, and put an 18" 
smoothbore slug barrel on it, and bingo, it's a deer gun!  I live in Ohio 
(ya gotta use a shotgun with slugs for deer) and I'm a licensed hunter, 
so there's no way a prosecutor could portray the gun as anything but a
deer gun, or me as anything but an innocent homeowner who grabbed his
"sporting weapon" to chase away the bad guys, even though in its present 
configuration, it's virtually identical to the riot guns the local cops 
carry in their cruisers.  (And also, I actually get to use the thing during 
deer season.)  

Lose the Rambo hardware and buy the shoulder stock;   you'll be happy you did, 
and it will still work just as well.  (And the web of your hand will hold
up longer, too.)

Ken
From: sdo@email.sp.paramax.com (Scott Olson)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: M70 Barreled Actions
Date: 22 Jan 93 04:01:03 GMT
Organization: Paramax -  Eagan, MN

Does anyone know if the new Winchester Model 70 Featherweight
Classic barreled action is available separately, through some
place like Brownell's?  I like the action, but the wood stock,
especially that tip, bothers me (I'd rather have a synthetic
stock)...

		Scott Olson
From: DHORTON@ENGLISH.AS.UA.EDU (David A. Horton)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Handgun stopping power. The velocity myth
Date: 26 Jan 93 01:51:28 GMT
Organization: University of Alabama English Dept.

Well, I've browsed a few notes on this subject and see that the
proverbial can of worms has been spilled again.

One thing I see as central to this argument of "stopping power" is
the idea of velocity. I am continually hearing comments about "the
golden bullet is the one with the most velocity...." etc. Well, I'm
skeptical of the so-called magic bullet that can gurantee a one-shot
stop, but lets consider what the market of bullets has to offer, and
what common sense might be able to tell us.

The late Elmer Keith firmly believed that a bullet's "killing power"
was closely related to the bullet weight times its velocity. This is
otherwise known as 'momentum'.  The precise defenition of momentum is
mass times velocity.
Let's turn our attention to what stops a perp. Penetration!! More
specifically, penetration that EITHER interrupts the central nervous
system (a brain or spinal cord shot), or a very large wound cavity
that will cause severe interruption of vital organ functioning. Yeah,
blood loss is a good idea, but it may take several seconds or minutes
for the target to bleed to death or pass out. What we want is the
largest possible wound channel, and the key to penetration is bullet
momentum. Actually, to be more specific, I think we can think of it
as a bullets momentum density (the momentum of a bullet divided by
its frontal area), and not bullet "energy".  Now I'm not saying
bullet energy doesn't matter in stopping power, just give me a sec
and I'll explain.
If you follow this theory, you'll see that it favors big, slow
bullets, like the .45-70 and the .45ACP, over small, hi-velocity
rounds that typically disintegrate upon impact. Number crunching will
show that heavy bullets (ie, 230gr .45 ACP) loaded to a moderate
velocity will ON AVERAGE (because there is no such thing as
consistency in our universe), penetrate over a 147gr. 9mm. Now I
don't want to turn this into a mindless debate over the 9mm vs. the
.45, but I do want folks to consider this for a sec.

Anyone have anything to add??


David A. Horton
University of Alabama
From: amb6@cornell.edu (Angella Bennett)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: HK-91
Date: 27 Jan 93 03:38:06 GMT
Organization: Cornell University

If you are interested in buying an HK-91, you ought to do so soon.  They
have been on the federal import ban list for two years, and are becoming
much more difficult to buy.  I have an HK-91 A2 in excellent condition
with most of the options you specified which I'd like to sell.  Why? 
More outgo than income these days.

First, some general information:
1.  The A2 model does not have the collapsible stock, the A3 does. I have
the stock with adjustable cheekpiece from HK, in addition to the regular
stock for the A2.  The current price for the A3 stock is about $245 to
$275.
2.  Barrels on HK's are not user replaceable.  You'll need to contact and
HK armourer or HK service in Virginia.
3.  rder to use the heavy bipod (which I have), you also need to have the
slimline forearm.  (The heavy bipod and standard forearm conflict.)
4.  Laser sights and HK-91's are a mismatch.  Even the best profes-sional
grade laser sight is useless in daylight (not bright enough to be seen @
5nW output), and is limited at nighttime to 100-300 yards (varying with
the color of the reflecting surface, and divergence of the laser beam.) 
Typical dot size at 100 yards is 4 to 6 inches . . .

Price on items I'll sell (with comparison to new/used prices):
                                                 New            Exc+ Used
          Offer 
                                              --------       
-------------      --------
Hk-91 A2                             1400.00+           1100.00         
1100.00
Arm's scope mount                 200.00                 NA              
200.00
HK Heavy bipod                     2.45.00              195.00           
195.00
HK Slimline forearm                 60.00                  NA            
   60.00
Microdot 4-12X, 56mm 
 Objective with lighted reticle     600.00              475.00          
475.00
HK Extra Mags (3), steel                32.00ea.            25.00        
   25.00
HK stock w/ adjustable
 cheekpc.                                     170.00               NA    
          170.00
HK Ejection Port Buffer                  30.00               NA          
      30.00
HK Buttstock extension                   35.00              NA           
     35.00
HK Leather Sling                             40.00              NA       
         30.00    

Prices on other items you asked for (which I don't have):
HK-91 A3 retractable metal stock is $270.00, HK-91 spare barrels (don't
have a published price that I've seen - contact HK dealer.)

Interstate transfers/sales will need to go through dealers with FFL's at
both ends in order to meet state and federal requirements.
From: petekunz@iiic.ethz.ch (Peter John Kunz)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: home protection concerns
Date: 26 Jan 93 16:24:41 GMT
Article-I.D.: neptune.1993Jan26.134822.3548
Organization: Dept. Informatik, Swiss Federal Institute of Technology (ETH), Zurich, CH

In article <1993Jan22.201321.19378@henson.cc.wwu.edu> n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio) writes:
#janeczko@csd630a.erim.org (Mike Janeczko) writes:
#	
#If you know of a police department that issues ammo you like, choose
#that ammo, and give their choice of it as your reason.

so what is good ammo used by police/fbi/feds?



cu
-pete



-- 
Peter J. Kunz	Vogesenstr. 60	4106 Therwil	Switzerland
petekunz@iiic.ethz.ch	pkunz@amiga.physik.unizh.ch
From: pauly@netcom.com (Paul Yoshimune)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Norinco 1911 vs Springfield
Date: 22 Jan 93 04:03:30 GMT
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)

In article <m0nEPKO-0001MoC@ncoast.org> cmort@ncoast.org (Christopher Morton) writes:
#As quoted from <ffEA02P732SV01@JUTS.ccc.amdahl.com> by efk00@cd.amdahl.com (Eddie Kieger):
#
## Well, don't take it personal, but I am amazed that this question is 
## asked. Given equivalent quality, I would HOPE that most Americans 
## would buy an American gun. I know that at least I would. One reason 
## why I am not even considering Browning for my new hunting rifle.
#
#I buy QUALITY and price.  If there's nothing wrong with the Norinco, that's
#the way I'll go, assuming that Springfield doesn't come back.  Just not having
#the Series 80 junk puts the Norinco ahead.  Equal or superior manufacturing
#quality makes things more so.  An at least $100 price difference only clinches
#things.

Well, there seems to be no shortage of Springfield 1911s at the gun shops I've
been to recently.  Also, the Springfield does not have the firing pin block
which the Colt Series 80s do.  This is something unique to Colt, although I
understand ParaOrdnance has this option, also.  (As a total aside, I wouldn't
mind having the firing pin block, and in fact would prefer it for a carry gun -
I've seen Series 80 Colts with nicer triggers [perfect!] than the one I had on
my Springfield [which was damn near perfect]).

-- 
DVC,
  Paul
From: mjalava@lk-hp-3.hut.fi (Mika Matti Jalava)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: hand shake
Date: 25 Jan 93 01:04:35 GMT
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology

In article <28586@dog.ee.lbl.gov> bercov@bevsun.bev.lbl.gov (John Bercovitz) writes:

#This is really one for your doctor but Inderal, which I believe is a beta
#blocker, has been proven to steady out the nerves for shooting.  Sorry

And remember not to use any of these drugs (beta blockers) if you are
going to shoot in competitions - you might get caught for doping.

	Mika
From: cmort@ncoast.org (Christopher Morton)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: [Pistol] Hi-Power question.
Date: 26 Jan 93 13:05:22 GMT
Organization: North Coast Public Access *NIX, Cleveland, OH

As quoted from <1993Jan25.190352.13699@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> by srinehar@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Shawn L Rinehart):

#      I have a 1990 Browning Hi-Power 'Sport model' that might have a problem.
# My gun will not eject an empty magazine once the slide is locked to the rear 
# (as happens after it is empty). If the slide is forward, it will usually pop it
# out either 1 inch or all the way. It depends which magazine I use.

This is due to the magazine safety which produces friction between itself
and the magazine.  I had mine taken out as soon as I got the gun.  Not only
does it let the magazine fall free, it helps the trigger pull too.  Remember
that it isn't there anymore if you have it taken out.



-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------  
"Read my lips, no new Haitians.  Ack!" - Bill the Prez
------------------------------------------------------------------ 
Christopher Morton
{uunet|backbone}!ncoast.org!cmort                      cmort@ncoast.org
From: jd@latcs1.lat.oz.au (John Dimogotsis)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: good, bad, & ugly
Date: 25 Jan 93 14:00:06 GMT
Organization: Comp Sci, La Trobe Uni, Australia

##2. best looking gun

Handgun: 	Wilson Master Grade Ltd
		Wilson Tactical Special Elite
		Colt Python
		Walther P5
		F/A Casull
		Dan Wesson .445 SuperMag
		HK P7M10 (.40)

Rifle(sniper): 	Sig SSG-2000
		HK PSG-1
		Valmet M86

Rifle(assult):	Steyer AUG 
		FN-FAL (para)

Shotgun: 	Remington 11-87
		Remington 1100
		Beretta A390 ST

Machine-gun:	FN Minimi
		HK 23E

Sub-machine-gun:	HK MP5-KA4
			HK MP5-SD5
			Beretta Mod-12
From: dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: RE: Buying out-of-state
Date: 28 Jan 93 16:09:44 GMT
Organization: The Courts of Chaos * 501-985-0059 * Public Access Usenet


-> I've found that many dealers would much rather transfer the sale
-> through an FFL so as to avoid the hassle, however.

 Of *course* they do.  After squalling about the FFL-to-FFL requirements
of the GCA, it didn't take dealers too long to realize there was money
in it.  At $20 or 10% (whichever is higher) local dealers are making a
killing.

 If you could just up and order stuff through the mail, the dealers
would lose a nice little sideline.
From: asbestos@nwu.edu (Michael A. Atkinson)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: KEYWORDS (was Re: the spirit of rec.guns)
Date: 22 Jan 93 23:40:43 GMT
Organization: Chaos


James and Jim:

I think the keywords thing is a good idea, with two reservations.

1)	Perhaps Our Esteemed Moderator could permit a "Keywords: "
newsheader to do this job more in the spirit of the conventions of Usenet
and (more important to me) more aesthetically pleasing than in the Subject
line.
	[MODERATOR:  Hmmmmmm, good point.  My homebrew system right now
	 does not pass through the Keywords: field.  Maybe taking advantage
	 of this is the way to go?  Other thoughts either way?]

2)	When I was new to rec.guns, I had no concept of reloading - I
thought that factory ammo was IT.  I stumbled upon a reloading thread, and
now even though my rifle was destroyed in a fire and I have nothing to
reload for, I plan to reload my ammo as soon as I move out of the People's
Republic of Illinois.  The point being, I agree with OEM that it's
important that everybody keeps in contact with all parts of rec.guns
culture.


My $.02.



Mike 
-- 
Michael A. Atkinson    | "Macintoy" is Copyright (c)1992 by 
asbestos@nwu.edu       |                 Chaos Organization.
                         
            A Libertarian and an NRA member.