HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: poole@chsun.chuug.ch (Simon Poole)
Subject: Re: FAQ: connecting to Internet?
Organization: CHUUG/EUnet
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL3
Distribution: ch.network, ch.chuug
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 14:58:37 GMT

feigin@iis.ethz.ch (Adam W. Feigin) writes:
...
: What I think it boils down to is that the Network community here has
: allowed the 'service provider' to dictate what individual
: hosts/networks can and cannot establish connections to, instead of the
: individual sites deciding for themselves. 
...

As I pointed out earlier to Alain, you should be careful with these arguments:
since I was -there- at the time, I know that the initial US IP connectivity
was -very- clearly limited to NSFnet access. European IP connectivity 
for the universities was "by accident" (this was available due to the 
association of your service provider with EUnet) and if I remember correctly
was never officially announced as available.

I've got know idea if the official policies have changed at all, but I would
be careful with assumptions on what you are being sold.

-- 
CHUUG/EUnet Switzerland				Simon Poole
Zweierstrasse 35	Tel: +41 1 291 45 80
CH-8004 Zuerich		Fax: +41 1 291 46 42	poole@eunet.ch
Newsgroups: ch.network
From: feigin@iis.ethz.ch (Adam W. Feigin)
Subject: Re: FAQ: connecting to Internet?
Organization: Swiss Federal Institute of Technology (ETH), Zurich, CH
Distribution: ch.network, ch.chuug
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 13:23:53 GMT

poole@chsun.chuug.ch (Simon Poole) writes:

>I think our dear friends went in to panic mode yesterday and changed the 
>the routing for world.std.com to go over their backup route to the states
>(which no longer ends directly on NSFnet). I'll just have to use a couple 
>of less simple examples) :-).

Well, how about  chsun.chuug.ch as an example ? I'd be willing to bet
a goodly sum that most people cannot reach chsun directly from
Switzerland via ftp or telnet. Luckily, some of us have other accounts
(outside Switzerland), from which WE CAN get to chsun if the need arises.

Witness:

	iis.ethz.ch csh[155]:telnet chsun.chuug.ch
	Trying 146.228.10.15 ...
	telnet: connect: Host is unreachable

	nih.gov csh[21]:telnet chsun.chuug.ch
	Trying 146.228.10.15...
	Connected to chsun.chuug.ch.
	Escape character is '^]'.

	SunOS UNIX (chsun)

	login:

>In any case, considering the nature of business of world.std.com, this
>is very interesting with respect to your service providers acceptable
>use policy.

Hey, its time to stop beating around the bush, and call a spade a
spade. Its patently ludicrous that I cannot reach chsun from here (where
you're basically within spitting distance), but I can reach chsun from
5000 Km away (Yes, I do know why).

What I think it boils down to is that the Network community here has
allowed the 'service provider' to dictate what individual
hosts/networks can and cannot establish connections to, instead of the
individual sites deciding for themselves. Its one thing if {ETH, EPFL
or any other subdomain of CH} decides that they wont allow packets (or
certain types of packets) to traverse their networks to certain
destinations (or allow certain packets into their networks), but its
quite different if the 'service provider' decides that for them. Thats
not providing service, thats denying it. WHY the community has allowed
the 'service provider' to dictate this is beyond me (although I'm not
completely surprised). It all strikes me as "a tendency toward or
actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control" (See the
Webster's Dictionary definition of fascism), similar to the alt.sex
fiasco of 6 months ago.

							/AWF

Disclaimer: I dont speak for IIS or ETH.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internet: feigin@iis.ethz.ch				 Adam W. Feigin
UUCP:{backbones}!iis!feigin			     Network Systems Manager
Mail: Integrated Systems Laboratory	      Institute for Integrated Systems
      ETH-Zentrum			  Swiss Federal Institute of Technology
      CH-8092 Zurich				       Zurich, Switzerland
      Switzerland
Phone: +41 1 256 50 53
      
  "In Confession, you blame yourself, in analysis, you blame everyone else"
							

Newsgroups: ch.network
From: poole@chsun.chuug.ch (Simon Poole)
Subject: Re: FAQ: connecting to Internet?
Organization: CHUUG/EUnet
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL3
Distribution: ch.network, ch.chuug
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 22:09:27 GMT

dantonio@iiic.ethz.ch (Denis Nicolas Antonioli) writes:
: Hi!
: I've made a few jealous friend when speaking from Internet to non connected
: people.

I've repeatedly run in to this funny illusion that people think
that the Internet is something that you can "connect to". 

While I must admit that the service providers tend to very sloppy 
with the term, I think that it is clear to all of us that the 
"Internet" is a lot more heterogeneous than what our average 
subscriber would imagine and that there are a lot of different 
views on what the "Internet" really is.

Just an example: from here I can telnet and ftp to world.std.com,
try that from the ETH.

I personaly would define the "Internet" as the collection of IP
service providers that allow their subscribers to exchange IP 
traffic with each other on a peer to peer base without traffic
based settlement*.

My definition would include NSFnet and the regionals connected 
to it, CIX, EUnet and a large number of European networks, very 
definitely the most important parts of the "Internet". But I'm 
sure that there are wildly differing views on this (for example 
a lot of e-mail only networks would be excluded by this definition).

One tendency is very visible: in the US the peering of networks 
is actively encouraged and practiced, in Europe a lot of forces 
are pushing exactly the opposite way (no amount of CEC money 
will compensate what European industry will loose due to this).

* if anybody is interested, I can expand a bit more on why this
  is so essential to the "Internet".
-- 
CHUUG/EUnet Switzerland				Simon Poole
Zweierstrasse 35	Tel: +41 1 291 45 80
CH-8004 Zuerich		Fax: +41 1 291 46 42	poole@eunet.ch
Newsgroups: ch.network
From: poole@chsun.chuug.ch (Simon Poole)
Subject: ADMD EUnet
Organization: CHUUG/EUnet
Distribution: ch
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 09:11:03 GMT


The following is of interest only for X.400 system managers:

Over the period of the next couple of months we will be changing
our RFC-987 mappings. So that mail to the ~100 EUnet sites in 
Switzerland will continue to work, you should additionally route 

	/ADMD=EUnet/C=CH/

directly via SMTP or X.400 to us. If you have any questions
please feel free to call us at the address below.

	Thank you for your cooperation.

--
CHUUG/EUnet Switzerland				Simon Poole
Zweierstrasse 35	Tel: +41 1 291 45 80
CH-8004 Zuerich		Fax: +41 1 291 46 42	poole@eunet.ch

-- 
CHUUG/EUnet Switzerland				Simon Poole
Zweierstrasse 35	Tel: +41 1 291 45 80
CH-8004 Zuerich		Fax: +41 1 291 46 42	poole@eunet.ch
Newsgroups: ch.network
From: qvortrup@inf.ethz.ch (Michael Qvortrup)
Subject: Re: FAQ: connecting to Internet?
Organization: Dept. Informatik, Swiss Federal Institute of Technology (ETH), Zurich, CH
Distribution: ch.network
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 06:34:28 GMT

In article <1992Jul30.132557.11066@bernina.ethz.ch> bloepfe@bernina.UUCP (Bruno Loepfe) writes:
>In article <1992Jul28.220927.4845@chsun.chuug.ch> poole@chsun.chuug.ch (Simon Poole) writes:
>>
>>Just an example: from here I can telnet and ftp to world.std.com,
>>try that from the ETH.
>>
>
>It's now July 30th, 15:23, and I'm sitting in RZ E3 (i.e at ETH)
>
>[connect example deleted]
>
>So it obviously works. What am I doing wrong ?? :-)

Try again now.

It is now July 31th, 08:32, and I am in the IFW (ETHZ).

And it is not working. It did work yesterday, though.

And I thought I had finally found an easy access to J. Wenn's book lists :-(

Greetings,
--Mike

-- 
#include <std-disclm.h>--"... and there is a small flaw in my character."---
Real Life: Michael Christian Heide Qvortrup      A Dane         ETH, Zuerich
e-mail   : qvortrup@inf.ethz.ch                  abroad         Switzerland
Institut fuer wissenschaftliches Rechnen  /  Inst. of Scientific Computation
Newsgroups: ch.network
From: feigin@iis.ethz.ch (Adam W. Feigin)
Subject: Re: FAQ: connecting to Internet?
Organization: Swiss Federal Institute of Technology (ETH), Zurich, CH
Distribution: ch.network, ch.chuug
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 07:03:54 GMT

poole@chsun.chuug.ch (Simon Poole) writes:

>As I pointed out earlier to Alain, you should be careful with these arguments:
>since I was -there- at the time, I know that the initial US IP connectivity
>was -very- clearly limited to NSFnet access. European IP connectivity 
>for the universities was "by accident" (this was available due to the 
>association of your service provider with EUnet) and if I remember correctly
>was never officially announced as available.

Thats all well and good. However, when you have only a single 'service
provider', and they are making the decisions for you.....

>I've got know idea if the official policies have changed at all, but I would
>be careful with assumptions on what you are being sold.

Well, do you know if every subscriber to our 'service provider' (mine,
not yours) receives a copy of a 'acceptable use policy' ? I should
think that if they are making decisions for their clients, the clients
should be aware of what acceptable use is (Not every person, but at
least the networking folk in the clients organization). Or, are they
free to make decisions FOR US, without CONSULTING us, to see whether
their decision(s) makes our work more difficult ?

							/AWF
Newsgroups: ch.network
From: poole@chsun.chuug.ch (Simon Poole)
Subject: Re: FAQ: connecting to Internet?
Organization: CHUUG/EUnet
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL3
Distribution: ch.network, ch.chuug
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 18:00:34 GMT

sinkwitz@ifi.unizh.ch (Rainer Sinkwitz) writes:
: 
: In article <1992Jul28.220927.4845@chsun.chuug.ch>, poole@chsun.chuug.ch (Simon Poole) writes:
: > 
: > Just an example: from here I can telnet and ftp to world.std.com,
: > try that from the ETH.
: > 
: Interesting: I can traceroute to this node but no ftp, not telnet from here.
: 
: traceroute to world.std.com (192.74.137.5), 30 hops max, 40 byte packets
....
: 10  192.70.246.1 (192.70.246.1)  10 ms !N  20 ms !N  30 ms !N

No you can't traceroute: the !N are "network unreachable" ICMP messages.

: 
: BTW, what's there at this node ?

It was just a random example. world.std.com is one of the largest
public Internet access systems (something like 1200 users) near Boston.


				Simon
-- 
CHUUG/EUnet Switzerland				Simon Poole
Zweierstrasse 35	Tel: +41 1 291 45 80
CH-8004 Zuerich		Fax: +41 1 291 46 42	poole@eunet.ch
Newsgroups: ch.network
From: poole@chsun.chuug.ch (Simon Poole)
Subject: Re: FAQ: connecting to Internet?
Organization: CHUUG Swiss Unix Systems Users Group
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL3
Distribution: ch.network, ch.chuug
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 11:18:12 GMT

genillou@litsun20.epfl.ch (Guy Genilloud) writes:
: In article <1992Jul28.220927.4845@chsun.chuug.ch>, poole@chsun.chuug.ch (Simon Poole) writes:
: |> dantonio@iiic.ethz.ch (Denis Nicolas Antonioli) writes:
: 
: |> ...subscriber would imagine and that there are a lot of different 
: |> views on what the "Internet" really is.
: |> 
: |> Just an example: from here I can telnet and ftp to world.std.com,
: |> try that from the ETH.
: |> 
: 
: In fact, we can reach world.std.co from ETH...L (EPFL).
: 
: It is defintely very nice to be able to do things like that. Why is that not
: possible from every university/ETH in Switzerland?

I think our dear friends went in to panic mode yesterday and changed the 
the routing for world.std.com to go over their backup route to the states
(which no longer ends directly on NSFnet). I'll just have to use a couple 
of less simple examples) :-).

In any case, considering the nature of business of world.std.com, this
is very interesting with respect to your service providers acceptable
use policy.

-- 
CHUUG/EUnet Switzerland				Simon Poole
Zweierstrasse 35	Tel: +41 1 291 45 80
CH-8004 Zuerich		Fax: +41 1 291 46 42	poole@eunet.ch
Newsgroups: ch.network
From: poole@chsun.chuug.ch (Simon Poole)
Subject: Re: FAQ: connecting to Internet?
Organization: CHUUG/EUnet
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL3
Distribution: ch.network, ch.chuug
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 20:43:25 GMT

[This is the sales part of my reply, don't read further if you don't
 want to see it]

dantonio@iiic.ethz.ch (Denis Nicolas Antonioli) writes:
: Hi!
: I've made a few jealous friend when speaking from Internet to non connected
: people.
: How, at what cost could they profit from
:   1) (part) of the News
:   2) anonymous FTP
: and such pleasant thing?
: Their hardware is PC/mac, modem.

I've sent you our documentation and price list that we currently have 
online with mail.

We offer various low cost ways of getting access to the "Internet"
(in increasing order of cost):

	- our mailbox/login service (the subscription fee is actually
	  lower than for corresponding services in the US). Option
	  of UNIX shell or Menu driven interface. 

	- UUCP connections with mail and News, access to ftp via
	  our ftpmail server.

	- X.400 connections with mail and access to ftp via our
	  ftpmail server.

	- direct IP connections (dialup, X.25, leased lines).

For casual users I would recommend the first or second option. Our
dialup IP prices are currently flat rate and tend to be very cheap
for regular users, but rather high for an entry level user (we are
working on this). Small News feeds are very cheap, large ones
less so. All services are accessible via high speed modems and
X.25, local access in Zuerich and Basel.

There are various commercial and shareware packages for PC's and
Macs (some of them are very nice). We can supply you with some
documentation on them and in the case of the shareware packages
with diskettes with the software.

If you have any further questions, don't hesitate to contact us.

-- 
CHUUG/EUnet Switzerland				Simon Poole
Zweierstrasse 35	Tel: +41 1 291 45 80
CH-8004 Zuerich		Fax: +41 1 291 46 42	poole@eunet.ch
Newsgroups: ch.network
From: bloepfe@bernina.ethz.ch (Bruno Loepfe)
Subject: Re: FAQ: connecting to Internet?
Reply-To: bloepfe@bernina.UUCP (Bruno Loepfe)
Organization: Swiss Federal Institute of Technology (ETH), Zuerich
Distribution: ch.network
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 13:25:57 GMT

In article <1992Jul28.220927.4845@chsun.chuug.ch> poole@chsun.chuug.ch (Simon Poole) writes:
>
>Just an example: from here I can telnet and ftp to world.std.com,
>try that from the ETH.
>

It's now July 30th, 15:23, and I'm sitting in RZ E3 (i.e at ETH)

ezrz4-bl% ftp world.std.com
Connected to world.std.com.
220 world FTP server (Version 5.56 Wed Mar 11 23:01:13 EST 1992) ready.
Name (world.std.com:bloepfe): anonymous
331 Guest login ok, send ident as password.
Password:
230 Guest login ok, access restrictions apply.
ftp> ls
200 PORT command successful.
150 Opening ASCII mode data connection for file list.
pub
etc
bin
obi
src
ls-lR.Z
info-futures
dist
world-info
Quantum
ls-R.Z
bcs
.find.codes
Kluwer
226 Transfer complete.
95 bytes received in 0.08 seconds (1.2 Kbytes/s)
ftp> 


So it obviously works. What am I doing wrong ?? :-)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bruno Loepfe                     	u36@czheth5a.bitnet
Computing Center                 	loepfe@rz.id.ethz.ch
Federal Institute of Technology  	bloepfe@ethz.uucp
Zuerich, Switzerland		 	..!uunet!mcsun!ethz!bloepfe (UUCP)
-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bruno Loepfe                     	u36@czheth5a.bitnet
Computing Center                 	loepfe@rz.id.ethz.ch
Federal Institute of Technology  	bloepfe@ethz.uucp
Newsgroups: ch.network
From: poole@chsun.chuug.ch (Simon Poole)
Subject: Re: FAQ: connecting to Internet?
Organization: CHUUG Swiss Unix Systems Users Group
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL3
Distribution: ch.network, ch.chuug
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 09:42:58 GMT

rheiger@osnbe.Olivetti.ch (Richard H. E. Eiger) writes:
..
: Every node charges the previous one on the communication path for the service
: provided. This gets propagated back to the source of the call. This way we
: don't introduce a huge overhead for billing centers. We don't need complex
: and treaties among a big number of participants, but only rather simple
: agreements between the sites directly connected. Hence there will also only
: be very few international treaties between bordering sites.

I don't particulary like the topology implications of your idea, and in the
end, I don't see having bilateral (or agreements like CIX) between connectivity
service providers as a big problem. CIX is -the- example that this works
with a very, very small overhead (and after the agreement of ANS with CIX,
you will see practically all US regionals joining CIX).

: Ideally the sites can make enough money on the non connectivity services to
: reduce the pure traffic (routing) costs close to zero. In my opinon the
: connectivity is not potentially the most profitable service of the "Internet".

One of the main problems of the "Internet" today is that it is -near- to
impossible to earn money from "non-connectivity" services. This is less
a technology problem (WAIS, for example has provisions for this), it's
just practically impossible to find a service to provide that somebody
else is not doing for free .

: To accomodate for very small sites intermediate sites could have a few class
: c networks with different subnetting schemes available (unless we could use
: different subnet masks within the same network).

It's not very likely that we will see "toaster"net with the current IP
network layer, and it's pretty clear that ISO CLNS will not do the
job either. For more information on the next generation IP (PIP, Nimrod,
TUBA) etc. you can join the Big-Internet mailing list or at have a look
at the archives of the list.

Allocating class C addresses is not a problem from an address space point 
of view (only a very low percentage of the class C addresses have been 
allocated), it is a problem from the growth of the routing tables. The 
solutions to this are being implemented now (CIDR, C#), they just don't have 
enough "customer" acceptance (as everybody has noticed that has tried to 
squezze a class B address out of me in the last month) yet.


-- 
CHUUG/EUnet Switzerland				Simon Poole
Zweierstrasse 35	Tel: +41 1 291 45 80
CH-8004 Zuerich		Fax: +41 1 291 46 42	poole@eunet.ch
Newsgroups: ch.network
From: dantonio@iiic.ethz.ch (Denis Nicolas Antonioli)
Subject: FAQ: connecting to Internet?
Organization: Dept. Informatik, Swiss Federal Institute of Technology (ETH), Zurich, CH
Distribution: ch.network, ch.chuug
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 16:30:47 GMT

Hi!
I've made a few jealous friend when speaking from Internet to non connected
people.
How, at what cost could they profit from
  1) (part) of the News
  2) anonymous FTP
and such pleasant thing?
Their hardware is PC/mac, modem.

Thanks in advance,

		d.n. antonioli
		dantonio@iiic.ethz.ch

P.S. I'm not a number, I'm a free man.
				   

Newsgroups: ch.network
From: poole@chsun.chuug.ch (Simon Poole)
Subject: Re: FAQ: connecting to Internet?
Organization: CHUUG, Swiss UNIX Systems Users Group
Distribution: ch.network, ch.chuug
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 19:51:06 GMT

In article <1992Jul30.111812.17721@chsun.chuug.ch> poole@chsun.chuug.ch (Simon Poole) writes:
>genillou@litsun20.epfl.ch (Guy Genilloud) writes:
>: In article <1992Jul28.220927.4845@chsun.chuug.ch>, poole@chsun.chuug.ch (Simon Poole) writes:
..
>: In fact, we can reach world.std.co from ETH...L (EPFL).
>: 
>: It is defintely very nice to be able to do things like that. Why is that not
>: possible from every university/ETH in Switzerland?
>
>I think our dear friends went in to panic mode yesterday and changed the 
>the routing for world.std.com to go over their backup route to the states
>(which no longer ends directly on NSFnet). I'll just have to use a couple 
>of less simple examples) :-).

I should probably point something out before anybody does something that is 
not allowed: the route to world.std.com from the EPFL etc.  is an open-jaw 
route (the packets don't come back the same way they go out), the incoming
packets still traverse the NSFnet and EASIgate and are naturally subject
to the NSFnet and EASInet acceptable use policy. Just to keep you out
of trouble....


-- 
CHUUG/EUnet Switzerland				Simon Poole
Zweierstrasse 35	Tel: +41 1 291 45 80
CH-8004 Zuerich		Fax: +41 1 291 46 42	poole@eunet.ch
Newsgroups: ch.network
From: poole@chsun.chuug.ch (Simon Poole)
Subject: Re: FAQ: connecting to Internet?
Organization: CHUUG/EUnet
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL3
Distribution: ch.network, ch.chuug
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 10:26:27 GMT

maer@bernina.ethz.ch (Matthias Ernst) writes:
..
: What I don't like in the whole discussion is, that I have never seen
: any statement from ..

Look at it from a commercial/business point of view: by keeping this 
part of the discussion alive, you are just helping with with the further 
spread of FUD. Brilliant sales tatics...

I'm -very- definitely not interested in having this discussion, it is
hurting us a lot.

-- 
CHUUG/EUnet Switzerland				Simon Poole
Zweierstrasse 35	Tel: +41 1 291 45 80
CH-8004 Zuerich		Fax: +41 1 291 46 42	poole@eunet.ch
Newsgroups: ch.network
From: poole@chsun.chuug.ch (Simon Poole)
Subject: Re: FAQ: connecting to Internet?
Organization: CHUUG/EUnet
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL3
Distribution: ch.network
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 14:33:39 GMT

bloepfe@bernina.ethz.ch (Bruno Loepfe) writes:
: In article <1992Jul28.220927.4845@chsun.chuug.ch> poole@chsun.chuug.ch (Simon Poole) writes:
: >
: >Just an example: from here I can telnet and ftp to world.std.com,
: >try that from the ETH.
: >
..
: So it obviously works. What am I doing wrong ?? :-)

See the other articles in this thread. Just as obviously I could spend
the rest of the day typing in similar examples (I just picked half a
dozen random from our routing tables), but that would be a waste
of everybodies time. 

I couldn't care less if your service provider has access to world.std.com
or not. Somebody obviously had trouble making the distinction between 
marketing arguments and an example illustrating the fact that the 
"Internet" is not a homogenous entity were everybody has the same 
connectivity, but far more a loose cooperation of various service providers.
-- 
CHUUG/EUnet Switzerland				Simon Poole
Zweierstrasse 35	Tel: +41 1 291 45 80
CH-8004 Zuerich		Fax: +41 1 291 46 42	poole@eunet.ch
From: dawson@willard.UUCP
Newsgroups: ga.general
Subject: Re: Acid rain in Ga? Yup.
Date: 24 Jul 92 11:38:42 GMT
Distribution: ga
Organization: Willard's House BBS, Atlanta, GA -- +1 (404) 664 8814

brad@slammer.UUCP (Brad Isley) writes:

> Nope - no sap ever hit it.  Sap doesn't etch paint.

The hell you say.  Perhaps you'd care to back this claim with some proof?

> 
> Cheers.  And wax your car.
> -- 
> emory!slammer!brad   (Brad Isley)
> +1 404 841-4169 Work			 Nopottopeein: "Howzit Goink?"
> +1 404 925-9663 Home			  The gang: "Fine, just fine."


-- 
dawson@willard.UUCP (Willard Dawson)
Willard's House BBS, Atlanta, GA -- +1 (404) 664 8814