From: nyikos@math.scarolina.edu (Peter Nyikos)
Subject: Re: Easily observed crite
Keywords: From: decay@
Organization: USC  Department of Computer Science
Distribution: uscar
Date: 10 Aug 92 14:43:00 GMT

In <1992Aug8.165958.21263@midway.uchicago.edu> eeb1@ellis.uchicago.edu (e elizabeth bartley) writes:

>In article <Aug08.050616.50240@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU>
>sa114984@longs.LANCE.ColoState.EDU (Steven Arnold) writes:

>>	Pro-lifers inclined to compromise would strongly emphasize "RARE" and
>>"EARLY"; pro-choicers usually place these two near the bottom.  Indeed,
>>if the fetus is a non-person, I wonder why they're on the list at all. 
>>For example, if it's safer for women to have abortions earlier, then
>>"SAFE" says it all; why add "EARLY"?

>Reason 1, generally applicable to all pro-choicers: it's pretty silly
>to go throught more of a pregnancy than absolutely necessary if you
>want an abortion anyway.

Well put.  Unfortunately, for those wanting a child of a certain gender,
"absolutely necessary" seems to mean waiting till well into the second
trimester.  [Point of information: can chorionic villi sampling detect
gender?]

>Reason 2, applicable to only some pro-choicers: some of us think
>abortion is okay *when* the z/e/f isn't a person, not universally okay
>*because* the z/e/f isn't a person.  I'm pro-choice in the first two
>trimesters because while I'm not sure exactly when personhood starts,
>I'm sure it's after the brain comes on-line, and that can't happen
>before myelination in the brain starts (23-24 weeks). 

Why are you so sure, and what does "comes on-line" mean, anyway?

> In the third
>trimester, I think the fetus is a person, or at very least might be
>one, and I'd like to see abortions restricted to cases where the
>mother's life or health is in danger. 

What does "health" mean to you, personally?  [I'm not asking you to 
speak in the name of pro-choicers in general.]

>Pro-Choice                 Anti-Roe                  - E. Elizabeth Bartley

I haven't seen an explicitly Anti-Roe statement above.  "Life or health"
is a Roe formula.

Peter Ny.

		***********************
In <1992Aug8.145011.7837@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> gjh@galen.med.Virginia.EDU (Galen J. Hekhuis) writes:

>In article <Aug08.050616.50240@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> 
>sa114984@longs.LANCE.ColoState.EDU (Steven Arnold) writes:

>}	Pro-lifers inclined to compromise would strongly emphasize "RARE" and
>}"EARLY"; pro-choicers usually place these two near the bottom.  Indeed,
>}if the fetus is a non-person, I wonder why they're on the list at all. 
>}For example, if it's safer for women to have abortions earlier, then
>}"SAFE" says it all; why add "EARLY"?

>Uh, Steve, a lot of pro-choice folks would consider legal as included
>in safe. 

Not before 1967, they did not.  One of their main selling points was
that most illegal abortions are done by responsible physicians taking
great care not to hurt their patients.  Why, the reasoning went, should
such compassionate acts be illegal?

I'll also have lots to say about the flip side of the coin, that
"safe is included in legal", which I think is subliminally behind
many pro-choicers listing "legal" ahead of "safe" [I hate to think
that there would be any other reason.] on this thread.  There is a
lot of truth to the pro-life slogan, "Roe only turned back-alley
butchers into front-door butchers."  For now, I'll just refer 
y'all to _Aborted Women, Silent No More_

In the light of this, nobody should be surprised by my ordering:

1. Early
2. Safe (for the woman, that is)
3. Rare
4. Legal (only if early, otherwise for very few cases)

My definition of "early": prior to sentience (would be even nicer
if prior to implantation--I think the Pill and IUD's should remain
legal unless they have an unacceptable number of side-effects for 
the woman).  Sentience, I believe, is present by the end of the 
seventh week [not month, as Ms. Bartley seems to assume].

Peter Ny.

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