HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: lsmith@deci.cs.umn.edu (Lance "Squiddie" Smith)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: R.S.BB FAQ V1.22 (9/25/92)
Date: 1 Oct 92 03:40:39 GMT
Organization: University of Minnesota

In <1992Oct1.014709.20685@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca> 91287041@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca (Roger Maynard) writes:

>In <0g!p=3b@lynx.unm.edu> kbos@carina.unm.edu (Kurt "Some Guy" Bose) writes:

>>      Also, the group dynamics here are interesting.  Several of the fans
>>here are interested in sabermetrics, a term coined to describe the study of
>>baseball statistics.  This group includes many of the more prominent posters

>What is the purpose of this sentence?  Every poster on this net is equally
>"prominent".  Wipe the brown stuff off your nose Kurt...

Oh, Roger, witty as ever. Ho, ho. Where do you come up with these?

Try prominent as in quantity of posting. If I post a lot, even if it's 
just Twins woofing, I will be noticed and therefore prominent. (Of course,
one can also be prominent by posting a few really stoooopid articles.) Like
it or not, some of the people who post a large number of articles are the
statheads and they have been doing it for a long time. 

>>are welcome to post, note that we've heard most of it before.  Just to set
>>the record straight, the more numbers-minded folk are just as knowledgeable
>>about the game as their old-school counterparts, watch as many games, in some
>>cases even play the game at competitive levels.  Many of them can converse

>Hardly.  Certainly some of them are more so.  But from what I can see the
>vast majority of so-called "statheads" don't get any closer to the game
>than the morning newspaper.

How many games did you see this year or last year? Been scouting for the
Jays and not letting us in on it? What exactly are your credentials that
make you better than the statheads?

Unless you have taken a poll of the posters on this net to find out 
what their involvement is in baseball (and someone has) you have no
right to make this claim and you certainly have no right to act somehow
superior to these people.

Whether you like it or not the people on this net know a lot about baseball.
Its history and how it's played. You may not like their opinions about 
certain things, but do not deny their knowledge of the game. 

>>as easily about swings and mechanics as they can about DA and OPS*.  For the
>>most part, they are just using their skills to enjoy and understand the game
>>as much as people who don't stare at the Sunday paper with a calculator in
>>hand.  Who knows?  They might even be able to do a good job managing a team.
>>(Other "stat-heads" include Dave Johnson, Tony LaRussa, Earl Weaver, and 
>>Branch Rickey.)

>Now you have gone beyond the realm of mildly amusing.  This is truly hilarious.

Care to explain this? What point do you find amusing?
--
     Lance "William Blake?" Smith     |   "Bring me my bat of burning gold!
         (lsmith@cs.umn.edu)          |    Bring me my pine tar of desire!
 "The Cat. He walked by himself, and  |    Bring me my glove! O clouds unfold!
    all places were alike to him."    |    Bring me my fastball of fire!"
From: sidbury@jaguar.uofs.edu (Dick Sidbury)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: CD ROM Baseball Encyclopedia
Keywords: CD ROM, Baseball
Date: 2 Oct 92 14:02:30 GMT
Organization: Department of Computing Sciences

Recently, I saw an ad in the DAK catalog for a CD rom baseball encyclopedia for
$69. (That is the sticker price so it may be cheaper elsewhere).  Does anyone
have it? And what is your opinion.

dick sidbury
bitnet: sidbury@scranton
internet: sidbury@jaguar.uofs.edu
From: thornley@milli.cs.umn.edu (David H. Thornley)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Sheffield is NL MVP
Date: 29 Sep 92 19:58:48 GMT
Organization: University of Minnesota, Minneapolis, CSci dept.

In article <17596@ucdavis.ucdavis.edu> fzchen@othello.ucdavis.edu writes:
>In article <1992Sep25.021254.29808@leland.Stanford.EDU> claudius@leland.Stanford.EDU (Nelson Lu) writes:
>>In article <1992Sep24.185443.6675@island.COM> fester@island.COM (Mike Fester) writes:
>>
>>
>>And, since OBP is more valuable than SLG, Caminiti's higher OBP wins out.
>
>This is why I quit sabremetrics.  Who says OBP is more important than 
>SLG???!!!  I think Caminiti vs. Pendleton is simple.  Poll the GM's and
>managers of both leagues and ask who they would want on their team if
>either could be had at the same salary...Caminiti.  Not!
>
This is why I took up sabremetrics.  Rely on the GMs?  It should be
obvious to the most rudimentary student of the game that some of them
make gross misjudgements of quite a few players.

As to why OBP is more important than SLG:  Run production is in general
proportional to OBP times SLG (which is another way of saying that SLG
is proportional to the number of baserunners driven in, since OBP
measures the number of baserunners per plate appearance).  Therefore,
the change in run production per point of OBP is proportional to team SLG,
while change in run production per point of SLG is proportional to
team OBP.  Since the SLGs are invariably higher, the OBP is more valuable.
There is a further correction factor, based on the fact that this is
the rate of run production.  Increasing a player's OBP will increase the
team OBP, while increasing a player's SLG will not.  Since the number of
plate appearances increases with OBP, the number of opportunities to
score increases with OBP.

The result of this is that, in general, a point of OBP is about 1.3 times
as valuable as a point of SLG.

David Thornley
"The batter must preserve an appearance of aggressiveness to please the
fans, but must not for any reason swing at bad pitches" - Niccolo Machiavelli
From: snichols@adobe.com (Sherri Nichols)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Morris Season begins Wednesday
Date: 5 Oct 92 21:16:39 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Adobe Systems Incorporated

In article <Bvo0r3.6Lw@mach1.wlu.ca> brea9430@mach1.wlu.ca (breadner kenneth cecil joseph u) writes:
>Ah, here we go again. Are you trying to say that A pitcher who went 21-6 on
>the year had a "minimal contribution"? Geez, how many wins do you need to
>really help your team?

No; given just the W-L record, we have little idea what kind of
contribution a pitcher made to his team.  Why?  Because so much of a
pitcher's W-L record is due to things completely out of his control.  The
pitcher has no control over how many runs his team scores when he pitches,
yet no matter how well he pitches, if his team doesn't score runs for him,
he won't get W's.  Likewise, the pitcher has no control over the caliber of
his bullpen; if the bullpen is trash, he's going to get "cheated" out of
some W's he should have gotten, and if the bullpen is great, he's going to
get bailed out of some losses he should have taken.

Granted, a pitcher does have some degree of control over how much these
things affect his W-L: if he never gives up any runs, he's unlikely to get
losses, and if he always pitches complete games, the bullpen is irrelevant.
Morris gets credit for pitching lots of innings, and for being about
average at giving up runs.  However, a large number of pitchers in the
league would have won just as many games had they been placed in Morris'
situation.  

So, in answer to your question, none.  Wins aren't a very good measure of
how well you helped your team.  They're a good measure of how well you,
your team's offense, and your team's bullpen combined together to perform,
but they aren't a good measure of how *you* performed.

Sherri Nichols
snichols@adobe.com
From: rom@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Rommy)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Hitting streak trivia (Molitor's 39)
Date: 2 Oct 1992 15:37:34 GMT
Organization: Computing Services Division, University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
Distribution: na
NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.89.7.4
Originator: rom@csd4.csd.uwm.edu

Ok trivia buffs!!!
This is worth a free meal to me from Chi-Chi's if I (or you) can get this 
correct.  So here goes...   
	    Who held the Milwaukee Brewers record before Paul Molitor hit
	    safely in 39 straight games back in 1987?

		  A. Cecil Cooper
		  B. Davey May
		  C. Johnny Briggs

please, please let Tigers sweep the 3 game series in Sky Dome this weekend.
....And former Brewer Rob Deer helps out his old teammates by cranking three
homers in three games to sweep the Jays.....Hey it could happen.

Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: snichols@adobe.com (Sherri Nichols)
Subject: Re: Net Runs Created - a new idea(?) - LONG
Organization: Adobe Systems Incorporated
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 15:30:39 GMT

In article <1992Sep25.221331.1324@awdprime.austin.ibm.com> marc@yogi.austin.ibm.com (Marc J. Stephenson) writes:
>reasonable), then the situation might as well be left out.  If what you're
>trying to measure is overall offensive value to the team, then maybe it does
>matter.  What the professor I worked with (Carl Morris, who is in SABR and
>seems to have moved to Harvard, maybe) felt, and what makes sense in the
>proper context, is that all that eventually matters in baseball are runs.

Agreed.

>How effective an offensive maneuver (including stolen bases and sacrifices)
>is depends on the how that maneuver translates in terms of run production.

Yes, in general.

>If it improves the teams chances of scoring a run (including the 100% chance
>in the case of a materialized run), then clearly that was good; otherwise, it
>wasn't.

However, when you get to a specific situation, a interesting question comes
up.  What are you trying to use this information *for*?  Is it more
interesting to look at how that action led to a specific run for a specific
team in a specific situation, or how that action in general improved the
likelihood of run scoring?  

Sherri Nichols
snichols@adobe.com
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: marwood@csri.toronto.edu (Simon J. Marwood)
Subject: Re: roy NL
Organization: CSRI, University of Toronto
Distribution: na
Date: 28 Sep 92 17:48:32 GMT

In article <1992Sep28.160111.3254@island.COM> fester@island.COM (Mike Fester) writes:
>
>Carter has been a part-time palyer at a starter's salary for the Expos. Though
>he is better than Fletcher, he has played less than Pena. 

Errr.... I don't think so. In an era where most *veteran* (read: non-Expo :) )
starters are making ~ $2M a season, Carter is not making a starter's
salary. He *may* have cleared $1M based on incentives, but this was the reason
he came close to retiring in February -- wasn't happy with the low pay
rate.

Simon

>BTW, Carter has announced his retirement).

Yup. Yesterday was his last game at Olympic Stadium, and probably his last
game, period. He drove in the only run of the game with a double over the
head of ex-Expo Andre "Hawk" Dawson, much to the pleasure of the 41,000+
who packed the Big O for the season finale. A very nice way to go out!

He was replaced by a pinch-runner after his double. Curiously, the pinch
runner was Tim Laker, a catcher, and likely the starter in Montreal next
year.

Simon

-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Simon Marwood		 | "Is this the train to Desert Moon?" was all she said
marwood@csri.toronto.edu | But I knew I'd heard that stranger's voice before...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: grabiner@math.harvard.edu (David Grabiner)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: AL Rookie of Year Award?
Date: 6 Oct 92 18:06:13 GMT
Article-I.D.: birkhoff.GRABINER.92Oct6140604
Organization: /etc/organization
In-reply-to: tedward@cs.cornell.edu's message of 6 Oct 92 16:52:00 GMT

In article <1992Oct6.165200.1997@cs.cornell.edu>, Edward [Ted] Fischer writes:

> I suspect that by far the biggest effect that team speed has on
> offense is that a fast runner is more advanceable.  I would be
> surprised if Milwaukee didn't take an extraordinary number of extra
> bases this year.

But this does work the other way as well; it's harder to score from
first on a fast runner's double, because the hit would have been a
single with a slower batter.


--
David Grabiner, grabiner@zariski.harvard.edu
"We are sorry, but the number you have dialed is imaginary."
"Please rotate your phone 90 degrees and try again."
Disclaimer: I speak for no one and no one speaks for me.
From: kuras@aiag.enet.dec.com
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Hitting streak trivia (Molitor's 39)
Date: 2 Oct 92 16:53:16 GMT
Reply-To: kuras@aiag.enet.dec.com ()
Distribution: na
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation


Johnny Briggs did it, prior to Paul Molitor.

You could look it up!
From: genetic+@pitt.edu (Dr. Dave)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Sandberg v Thomas/Oakland Coliseum/Cubs
Date: 29 Sep 92 18:36:35 GMT
Organization: Department of Industrial Engineering

Sorry to follow up my own article, but...

Thus spake genetic+@pitt.edu (Dr. Dave):
>
>Through yesterday (Sunday 9/27), Big Frank had amassed 296 total bases, with
>299 times on base (not counting HBP).  With 7 ChiSox games remaining, he looks
>like a sure thing to become the first player since Mickey Mantle to have
>back-to-back 300/300 seasons.


Well, Frank decided to end the awful suspense last night, hitting two doubles
to put him over 300 TB and 300 H+BB simultaneously.

Frank is the first back-to-back 300/300 player since Mantle '56-'57.  He is
the first back-to-back 300/300 and 100/100 (runs and RBIs) since Musial did
it in '53-'54.  And he's 24 years old?


-- 
       David Tate        |"Out of the dugout endlessly swinging,
 dtate@unix.cis.pitt.edu | Out of the manager's throat, the sound fundamentals,
 Prof. of Story Problems | Out of the six-month season..."            
 Member ORSA, TIMS, SABR | 	Walt "Lefty" Whitman
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: "stephen dawson" <stephen.dawson@canrem.com>
Subject: jays starters for lcs
Reply-To: "stephen dawson" <stephen.dawson@canrem.com>
Organization: Canada Remote Systems
Distribution: rec
Date: 3 Oct 92 21:19:44 EST

The Blue Jays pitchers have put it all together at just the right
time!

Jimmy Key has been awesome in the last month. David Cone has been,
well David Cone, once he adjusted to the American League strike
zone. Juan Guzman throws a one hitter through eight to clinch the
East title.

If it wasn't for his incredible career record and playoff experience
Jack Morris may not even have warrented a start! But he will be out
there to start things off on Wednesday.

Oakland is anything but ready for post season play, based on their
recent performance.

Look for the Jays to win in 5, and don't discount a sweep.

    STEPHEN
    ^^^^^^^
 stephen.dawson@canrem.com
 Entered 10-03-92 at 8:35pm in Downsview, Ontario

 * DeLuxe2/386 1.25 #3969 * An employer gets the employess he deserves.
--
Canada Remote Systems  - Toronto, Ontario
World's Largest PCBOARD System - 416-629-7000/629-7044
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: brian@meaddata.com (Brian Curran)
Subject: New M's Logo (was Re: Big news for the Angels! :-) )
Organization: Mead Data Central, Dayton OH
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 20:57:55 GMT

In article <1992Oct1.160845.20695@engage.pko.dec.com>, kuras@aiag.enet.dec.com () writes:
|> 
|> Anyone out there hear of any other news of other teams changing uniforms
|> for next year?  The reason I ask is that I recently received a flyer in the
|> mail from a mail order souvenir business.  They were offering batting 
|> practice & game warm up shirts of a couple of teams, at a reduced price.
|> Usually, when this happens, it means that the team is changing styles or
|> colors for next year.  A good example is the Phillies & Expos (uniforms)
|> and Tigers & Astros (bp shirts only).
|> 
|> Anyway, this company is now offering reductions on Angels, Mariners 
|> (recently sold, so new owners could be making uniform changes), & Mets.

As reported in last week's McThang:  The Seattle Mariners are changing
their logo and uniform colors next season.  The new logo is entitled
"Nautical Compass Rose" and depicts a nautical compass(!) with the letter
'S' (or maybe it's 'M'?) in the center.  The new uniform colors are navy
blue, metallic silver and Northwest green.  
-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brian Curran                 Mead Data Central              brian@meaddata.com 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"He handed me a tube of Vaseline.  I thanked him and gave him a sheet of 
  sandpaper."         - Don Sutton, Los Angeles Dodgers pitcher, recalling 
                          an encounter with greaseball king Gaylord Perry
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: "mike walker" <mike.walker@canrem.com>
Subject: alfredo griffin
Reply-To: "mike walker" <mike.walker@canrem.com>
Organization: Canada Remote Systems
Distribution: rec
Date: 27 Sep 92 02:43:39 EST


In message-ID: <1992Sep24.023921.10848@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca>
on the subject: Alfredo Griffin you wrote:

>Contrary to what I have stated in the past, Alfredo Griffin is unquestionably
>the worst SS, both offensively and defensively, in MLB.  The jays are cooked
>if Lee can't come back.  Griffin by himself probably contributes more losses
>than Oz, in his prime, contributed wins. (for those who remember Herzog's
>famous line)

>He can't move runners across.  He can't throw to first.  He can't make the
>DP.

>The only thing he does is look puzzled while standing at the plate with
>runners on base.  And he does that real well.

Take a close look these days, he's playing better, much better! I am
no fan of Fredo's, and I thought it really dumb to bring him here. Up
until about 2 weeks ago your analysis was spot-on, but he really is
moving better, covering more ground, throwing better now. I saw him
play twice in person during the Jays last home stand, and he really is
getting much better, from where I sit. I think he and Alomar are
turning the double play BETTER than Lee, and they seem to communicate
better. Griffins' offense is weak, but Lee is hardly Mr. Clutch.
Personally I think Gruber costs the Jays more games than Griffin at
this point; my worry is Griffin will injure his aging & fragile body
and we'll have the dreaded Eddie Zosky in there for the finish! THAT
will do the Jays in . . . . Mike
---
  DeLuxe 1.12 #165  Young gorillas are friendly, but they soon learn.
--
Canada Remote Systems  - Toronto, Ontario
World's Largest PCBOARD System - 416-629-7000/629-7044
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: fehr@ms.uky.edu (Jeff Davis)
Subject: Re: Greatest Seasons, by position
Distribution: na
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 15:30:56 GMT
Organization: Austerlitz, Gershovitz, and Carmichael

In article <1992Sep22.145349.13720@cbnewse.cb.att.com> zurawski@cbnewse.cb.att.com (lawrence.w.zurawski) writes:
>> 	Pos.	Player		Year		Wins
>> 
>> 	P	Walter Johnson	'12		 9.8
>> 
>	Sounds reasonable.  Maybe Grove in '31.
>> 
Bob Gibson  '68.

-- 
Jeff Davis <davis@keats.ca.uky.edu>
From: zuhars@madrone.eecs.ucdavis.edu (Gary Didi Seven Huckabay)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: First church of Barry Bonds
Date: 28 Sep 92 15:53:45 GMT
Organization: Lance Blankenship Appreciation Society (BB Division)

Nelson "You can make a FORTUNE in real estate, with NO MONEY DOWN" Lu
writes:

>				RC/27	VALUE
>Barry Bonds, Pittsburgh	12.66	97.1

Holy Mother of God.  An RC27 more than 150% of Rickey, when Rickey's
having a pretty darn good year?  Right.  Send this season to the HoF.
Why is there even any argument about NL MVP?

>Rickey Henderson, Oakland	8.08	41.8	; notice difference

What a malingering malcontent.  He's a cancer on this team.

>Shane Mack, Minnesota		7.43	48.5
>Brady Anderson, Baltimore	6.81	43.6

Da BURNS!  It's gotta be da BURNS!

>Bip Roberts, Cincinnati	6.74	35.2
>Tim Raines, Chicago (AL)	6.45	33.2

Why don't we jut put "Rickey Henderson LITE" on his uniforms, for
chrissake?

>Candy Maldonado, Toronto	6.22	26.9

Slide, Candy, Slide!  Nice season.  Dave Kirsch must have been living
right to get this out of Candy, and Dave's year out of Dave.

Must be Kirsch's vow of celibacy.

>Bernard Gilkey, St. Louis	6.10	19.3
>Kevin McReynolds, Kansas City	6.09	21.1

Nice rebound.

>Kevin Mitchell, Seattle	5.85	17.1

Not too shabby.  Maybe next year, it'll be dinger time?  We'll see.

>Mel Hall, New York (AL)	5.12	15.3

A career SAVED by Yankee Stadium.  I still claim he's a grade A, no
walk, bad defense STIFF.  [tm]

>Dan Gladden, Detroit		4.11	0.5	; so yes, he's worth something

Only if you value comic relief.
Finishing ahead of...

>Chris James, San Francisco	4.02	-0.3
>Billy Hatcher, Boston		3.97	-1.0
>Mark Carreon, Detroit		3.47	-4.9

doesn't really impress me too much.

OK.  Anyone here REALLY want to argue that Barry Bonds isn't the NL
MVP?  We can talk RBIs until we're blue in the face, and you can rag
all you want on RC27, but do you really think it's off by enough to
account for Bonds' dominance?

I think not.

If you vote for Pendleton first, I have no choice but to declare you a
macroweasel.  [tm, LundyCo.]



-- 
*    Gary Huckabay   * "I hope Atlanta does.  The A's have a chance of    *
* "Proud NOT to have *  beating them, since they don't walk much, and     *
*  a wacky sitcom on *  rely heavily on lefty pitching." "But Canseco's   *
*     network TV."   *  gone.  Gary?!  Are you Ok?  You want me to call...*
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: g_waugaman@nac.enet.dec.com (Glenn R. Waugaman)
Subject: Re: Elias/STATS projections
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 22:32:38 GMT


In article <1992Sep29.162229.1437@panix.com>, spira@panix.com (Greg "Sarcasm Is A Way Of Life" Spira) writes...
> 
>By the way, Valentine, you'll be thrilled to know that the two most off
>projections in the group of players I tested were for (surprise!) Phil
>Plantier and Mo Vaughn.

I think Elias nailed Plantier, though.  Or at least I remember saying to 
myself, "no way is Plantier going to have that bad a season".  Alas, he 
did, and then some.

Did Elias say if they even looked at minor league stats?  The impression I 
got from the "similar players" listings was that they didn't.  If they 
really did just compare the first partial season with those of players of 
the past, common sense would tell you that that is a terrible system...

---
Glenn Waugaman
Digital Equipment Corporation
Littleton, MA
g_waugaman@nac.enet.dec.com
---
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: dave@snitor.sni.ca (Dave Till)
Subject: Re: Morris: more fuel for this debate
Organization: Phil Garner Voodoo Dolls [Whol & Mfrs]
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 13:51:38 GMT

In article <1992Sep28.190928.25787@leland.Stanford.EDU>,
dkeisen@leland.Stanford.EDU (Dave "Insert Nickname In This Space" Eisen) writes:
>But BA is not all there is to baseball. And if I recall, Morris has
>a history of leading the league in most home runs allowed. I'd be more
>impressed if Morris was leading the league in slugging percentage
>allowed.

The following facts may be relevant:

[Disclaimer:  these stats are from last week's McWeekly, and are two weeks
old.]

Morris is not near the league lead in HRs allowed.  He has tossed 17 taters;
the league leader is Ben McDonald with 31.  Eleven pitchers have allowed
20 or more.

Morris has allowed a fair number of doubles -- 35 -- but this isn't near
the league lead either.  Nine pitchers have allowed over 40 doubles.  The
top two are both Twinkies:  Smiley with 48, and Tapani with 45.  (This is
obviously a park effect.)

Morris ranks 15th in the league in slugging among pitchers eligible for the
ERA title (assuming I didn't miss anyone):

Juan Guzman     .274
Clemens         .298
Appier          .319
R Johnson       .323
K Brown         .330
McCaskill       .332
Perez           .335
Viola           .340
Ryan            .341
Abbott          .341
Navarro         .343
Mussina         .354
Nagy            .355
Erickson        .359
MORRIS          .365
Fleming         .365
Welch           .365

This is respectable, but not great (which defines Morris's season as well).

As of this issue, Cal Eldred's opposition slugging percentage is .236.
Jeezus.

--Dave "does this get me into the statheads union?" Till
e-mail path:  dave@silver.sni.ca or dave@snitor.uucp
(or try dwtill@watyew.waterloo.edu)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball