Newsgroups: misc.consumers.house,misc.rural
From: gregory@csri.toronto.edu (Kate Gregory)
Subject: Summary: tillers
Organization: CSRI, University of Toronto
Date: 6 Apr 92 20:10:53 GMT

I saved 24 replies n the subject of tillers. Some were email,
others were posted to m.r or m.c.h. 

Our ground is still frozen 4 inches down, so we have at least another
week to mull this over, but I'm posting the summary now for those
who live in warmer climes. If I discover anything thrilling (or
get more mail) I'll do another installment after I decide and have
actually put the garden in.

My original posting:
------------------------------
The garden in our new place will be about 800 square feet; at our old place
it was about 250 and that was hard work to dig twice a year. Even though
the soil here is very sandy (the old place was clay), we'd like to 
get a tiller.

So far, we see three possibilities: rent whatever it is the rental
store has, buy from the Sears catalogue, or buy a BCS -- we have
some pamphlets from them. Going to the BCS dealer to kick tires
will be an expedition (ignore my Organization: line, I'm *not*
in Toronto anymore) and I don't want to do that without some prior
information.

Does anyone have a guess as to how long it would take to till 800
square feet of sandy soil that had corn growing in it several years
ago? That way we can estimate our annual rental bill.

The BCS models take attachments to be a snowblower, lawn mower (looks
like a ride-on -- is it?), cutter bar, etc. We could actually use
these things. Do you save money this way, or is it better to buy
them individually?

What other brands are there, and where can I get dealer info? I have
a great assortment of phone books from across Southern Ontario, and can 
probably look up a company if I have a name.

Any information about tillers you can think of would be greatly appreciated.
I'll summarize for these groups.

------------------------------

Summary of replies:

Time estimates varied from 1 hour to 2 days. The most popular
time estimate seemed to be half a day or less. Four of the twenty
four postings urged me to rent, or to hire someone to do the job,
which may actually be cheaper than renting.

Front tine tillers were dismissed as useless.

Owners of various attachment-changing devices warned that often
the hassle to change them is not worth it, or the money savings aren't
realized unles you get a LOT of attachments, some of which you could never
justify alone. Also you can only use one thingy at a time, and if
the motor breaks then all your thingies are broken. Both BCS replies
specifically warned it takes a long time to switch.

Also, we've decided we need a chipper/shredder more than we need a snowblower,
which may affect our final decision.

Of those mentioning brand names, the scoresheet looks like this:

                     Good           Bad          Unsure
Troybilt              9              2             1
Arens/Airens          2
BCS                   2                            1
Kubota                1              1
Honda                                1             1
Mainline              1
MTD                   1

There's a TroyBilt dealer where I do my banking (35 minutes
from home) so I'll stop by next time I go into town. I'll also
stop by the rental place to see what brand they rent, since it
obviously matters a lot. 

The full text of the replies follow. Before I stripped headers,
sigs, and quoted material it was 1000 lines; now it's 500.

------------------------------

From:	Charles Shub <cdash@moet.cs.colorado.edu>

look at troy built tillers  (they have a USA 800 number.

------------------------------

From:	Jon E.Finke <finkej@rpi.edu>

Ypu might want consider a "Troy-bilt" Tiller (They are located on
102nd Street, in Troy NY.  (about 4 blocks from my house))

My impression of their product, is that they are top of the line,
and will most likely outlast their owners.  I am on the process of
getting one for my Father, and got a Factory tour this saturday,
and the machines do appear to be well built.

(I also noticed Sears selling some Troy-Bilt tillers, but the factory
direct price is cheaper).  Their number is 518-235-6010 (I think they
have an 800 number as well, but I don't know if off hand)

>
>Does anyone have a guess as to how long it would take to till 800
>square feet of sandy soil that had corn growing in it several years
>ago? That way we can estimate our annual rental bill.

Depends on the machine size.   I expect that Troy-Bilt could give you
ideas.

Let me know if you have any questions.   I am not connected with the company,
but I have a friend who works there and I have used their tillers.
(DId a great job of redoing my lawn...)

------------------------------

From:	johns@gold.gvg.tek.com (John C. Schultheiss)

Sorry, I don't have any firsthand experience to report on BCS tillers.
But I'm looking at them, too.  They look to me like a great solution
to my problem, which is some real wicked slopes; I'd be afraid to use
a "real" tractor on them.  I'm quite sure I'd end up rolling under the
thing.  I've seen the BCS tillers (I think BCS prefer the term "walk 
behind tractor"), and they appear to be quite well built.  I think that's
what I'll get, when I can afford it.  I would appreciate it if you could
forward any email responses concerning this subject to me, though, since
I'm still gathering any information I can on the subject.  Like you, I
wonder whether all the attachments are as useful as the company claims.
These little beauties seem almost too good to be true.  Maybe it takes
all day to change implements, I don't know.  They sure do look good, though.

------------------------------

From: sasjzs@VMS.SAS.COM (Joe Slater)

If you only have 800 sqft (approx 20x40 or 30x30) my advice
is to rent a big tiller once (or twice if you till in the fall) a year.
Should be able to till in in half a day. If you want to use a tiller 
to control weeds, invest in a small tiller to surface till the weeds
and rent the biggun whenever  you need it. 

If you really need the stuff like the mower, snow blower, etc,
you might then consider buying, depending on how often you
need it. Don't get blinded by fancy gadgets which you may
never use. See if you can try them before buying.

In any case, I would try to rent or borrow any make/model I 
was interested in before buying. This way you can make
sure it works as you want it to, that it is easy to use, etc.

Troybilt seems to have arguably the finest tillers. This is not
to say that BCS and others are not also fine tillers, as I've 
never used any of them. I think Sears carries the Troybilt
and I've seen adds for them and BCS in several "country"
magazines. This is to say you also have the option
of mail-order.

------------------------------

From:	sbuchele@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Steven W. Buchele)

I have an 800 square foot garden. The soil in Texas is clay.
Using a rear tine tiller, it takes about 2 hours, but the soil
is much improved, and has been tilled a "few" times.  Breaking
new ground is much harder.

I am trying to figure out the relationship
between ease of ground breaking and soil tilth.

As I wrote, I have a 800 ft2 garden, but also 20 acre farm
about 20 miles from Austin. The soil in town is solid clay,
the soil on the farm is creek bottom, meaning it has more sand,
lots more. This gives me a chance to compare and refine my formula.  

A rough way to figure how long its going to take to break new ground
is to take a spade, and stomp on it in the ground you are planning
to break.  Use only one stomp, measure the distance (in inches) the
spade went in the ground, call that "n".  Let "a" be the area measured
in 12 square foot blocks.  

	T = 1/n * a

------------------------------

From: flb@sequent.com

	I have a 6hp Troybuilt tiller and realy like it.
	I've used a number of other brands of walk behind
	tillers from 3hp to 16 hp, and I would recommend
	a Troybuilt. With proper care a premium quality
	tiller will last you more than 10 years.

	If you buy direct from Garden Way Inc (the company
	that makes Troybuilt products) you get a 30 day
	money back guarantee (you only pay the return shipping,
	which is a lot less than even a week's rental).

	Another choice is to pay to have someone come in
	with a tractor with a tiller or a large walk-behind
	tiller to prepare the ground each year.

------------------------------

From: hypes@hpdmd48.boi.hp.com (Gary Hypes)

Well, it seems to me that rather than make a $400 - $800 purchase
decision based on a consensus of strangers, it'll be easier (and
cheaper) to mark off about 100 sq yds (ft??), rent a tiller, and see how
long it takes you to till that much. When you throw in your multiplier
for the remainder, just remember you're going to be getting more and
more tired as you go....

I'm facing the same decision, and that's what I'll likely do. I do have
strong feelings about shelling out those bucks for something I'm only
going to use over a 2-week period of time every year. On the other hand,
the kinds of rental prices I'm seeing are pretty astronomical...

------------------------------

From: brooksp@hpcc01.corp.hp.com (Peter Brooks)

I tilled a new garden last year.  Let's see, it would have been about
400 square foot of garden, with the infamous SF Bay adobe clay soil
in the base, with a few inches of fill sand on top (the ruins of a
pool that died in an earthquake).  I rented a 5HP tiller (front tine
garden tiller type) and did the entire patch in a couple of hours.
Some of this time was spent finding and digging out some chunks of
concrete that a former owner blithly buried.

Unless you have serious plans to expand the garden, I fail to see
the wisdom in owning a tiller, provided the rentals are available.
In my case, I put my garden in a few weeks later than everyone else;
I had no trouble renting one, though it could have been dicey a few
weeks earlier.

One other possibility is getting a used tiller from a garage sale.
I considered and rejected this; my garden shed is already overfull.

Another benefit to renting; if you need to do serious soil amendments,
you could get a big rear-tine tiller (Mang or Howard or the like) with
the power and gearing to make this a tolerable job.  The big beasts are
popular for putting in yards around here, but no rational person would
own one for a garden.

------------------------------

From: perley@trub.crd.ge.com (Donald P Perley)

From looking at rental price lists, tillers seem to be one of those things
like chain saws that are dangerous in untrained hands, so the rental cost 
is pretty high.  If there are a lot of people with tillers in your
area, it will probably be CHEAPER to hire someone to till your 
garden than it is to rent one and do it yourself.

I am not familiar wth BCS.  The key is to check what each standalone
gizmo would cost compared to the attachment.  Sometimes it is pretty close.

Troybilt is the favorite around here, but I live about 5 miles from
the factory.  

Honda makes a nice looking rear-tine tiller for less money, but I have
never used one.  Their mowers have a good reputation.

------------------------------

From:	jsili%sunserver@relay.nswc.navy.mil (Jeff Sili (Simms))

	We moved 4 years ago from the city 50x100 lot to 11 acres.  
I had always had a garden.  The garden I now have is about 100x100 the first 
2 years I barrowed a till as often as possible.  I looked at auctions and 
garage sales and I found that they usually wanted more than the things were 
really worth.  you'll find you won't use them 1/3 as much as you think.  
We bought a garden tractor 14hp for grass cutting and when it really snows 
here are neighbor plows the driveway with a tractor, like there's anywhere 
to go then.  I looked at all the equipment you are and I feel I made the best 
choice. As for the amount of time it will take to till up your current garden, 
it depends on how often you have to stop and untangle the corn stalks for the 
tiller tines. I have found that to be the most time consuming process involved.  
The formula is guess how long you think it will take and then multiple by 2.

------------------------------

From: simard@vax.sonoma.edu

We have the 6hp BCS tiller with a scicle bar mowing attachment.  The 
product is very well built and performs very well.  It takes about 
half an hour to change attachements and the one I want to use is 
allways the one NOT attached.  I found to my dismay that when I 
wanted to purchase a chipper/shredder I needed the 8hp model or 
bigger plus $1000.
If I were to do it again I would opt for seperate machines.  Besides 
much of the weeding and tilling seems to come at the same time and 
with two units two of us could work at it.

It does an excellent job.  It is heavy but I have a lot of adobe clay 
and need the weight.  My only real complaint is that you need at 
least three attachments before its cheaper than buying each 
seperately.  We don't have snow, so my third was going to be the 
grinder upper and I didn't check the HP requirements when I bought 
the unit 3 yrs ago.  The first year found the tiller hitting a lot of 
rocks and I had to replace a couple of tines (no big deal) and the 
sickle bar cutter sniped a lot of 12 gauge fence wire until I learned 
to control it next to a fence, also without any damage to the blades 
(except for sharpness).  If you expect to use the riding attachment I 
would suggest you get the biggest one possible our property is not 
very level so I didn't even consider it.

------------------------------

From: doshay@ursa.arc.nasa.gov (David Doshay)

MTD makes a 5hp rear tine tiller, seen at Home Depot, that is much cheaper
than the Sears model, and looks very similar.

------------------------------

From: zardoz@rx-db (zardoz@rx-db.hf.intel.com)

I haven't heard Arens mentioned yet.  They also make a pretty decent rear
tine tiller.  IMHO front tine tillers are worthless except for small patches.
Personally I use a 1947 Fraizer root-ripping rotor tiller that is so heavy
that two strong men cannot lift it into a pickup truck.  Fortunately it will
drive itself up two boards onto the truck.  I borrow it from a friend in
exchange for my fixing it.  Its got a 400cc two stroke engine that I have
put a new piston into among other maintainance.
This tiller has spring steel fishook-like claws that once pulled a 3 foot
long 2" ID pipe out of the ground and threw it out sideways on me.  They
don't make em' like they used to.

------------------------------

From: susanh@fai.UUCP (Susan Hunts)

I don't agree that Troybilt tillers are great.  I've had one for about three
years now and it's been very unreliable.  Their service/help line has not
been very helpful, either.  I get the impression they decide I don't know
much about engines (true) and therefore won't exert much effort to diagnose
the problems (not acceptable).  When the machine can be started, it does
a great job tilling.  But a machine that won't start (it's about 50-50 and
it hasn't started at all for about 6 months) is not much use.

One other comment, there's a lot more maintenance and upkeep required for
the machine that I expected.  If you're not used to this, you might 
prefer to rent and avoid the hassle.

------------------------------

From:	davidbu@loowit.wr.tek.com (David E. Buxton)

Sounds to me like about an hour worth of tilling.  Add an hour to unload
and load and drive to/from the rental.  A half days work or less.  Here
they rent em by the day.  An hour or 24 hours is the same.

Oh yes, you asked about a multi capable unit.  I once bought a weed
whacker that went on any small chain saw.  You take off the bar and
chain and put on the chain driven weed-whacker.  It worked fine.  And
it didn't take all that long to change back and forth, probably less
than 10 minutes.  But changing attachments was a chore I learned to
avoid, and so I had a chain saw, but not a weed-whacker.  I needed wood
worse than I needed weeds trimmed and so the wood got cut and the weeds
didn't.

Now, if the attachments are easy to change and you have the discipline
to change them, then I'd guess you can save money.  If the other
attachments are ones you can use, but hey, if its a hassle why bother,
then, like me, they could be attachments that get used a couple times
and then start gathering dust.

So, thats the question.  How easy to change the attachments and do you
have the discipline to put up with the hassle.

------------------------------

From: bills@sequent.com (Bill Sears)

I also haven't seen Kubota mentioned here.  My fiance's parents let us
borrow theirs, and I tilled up about 1500 square feet of hard pack clay
in about 4-5 hours.  It is a rear tine with an electric start.  It hadn't
been started for several months, so I figured that the battery would be
so low that I'd have to start it manually, but I turned the key and it
took right off.  One of the things I like best about this tiller is that
it has reversible tines, so if something (like the chunks of cement and
2x4's that were left buried in our yard after the construction) gets
jammed in the tines, I can just reverse the direction and tap on the
power take-off and, viola, unjammed.  A friend of mine borrowed a rear
tine Honda that would not reverse, and he had all kinds of problems with
jamming.

>IMHO front tine tillers are worthless except for small patches.

Agreed.  One of my neighbors bought a front tine tiller and it took him
two entire weekends to do about the same amount of area that I did in less
than a day.  He was really struggling with it, too.  Of course, if you buy
a tiller for the exercise benefit, maybe a front tine is for you. :-)

------------------------------

From: root@devl3.UUCP (Super user)

Our experience with the Troybilt tiller has been the exact opposite of
Susan's.  We owned an 8 hp model for about 5 years and we kept a
3000 - 3600 square feet garden each summer.  Neither my wife nor I ever
had any trouble starting the machine.  We didn't find the maintenance to
be that much of a hassle.  We sold the machine after 5 years for $100
less than we paid for it.  It was in almost perfect condition despite
the use we put it to, including preparing the yard at our new house for
seeding, which tells a good bit about the quality of it's construction.
We got rid of it because we had no garden plot of the size to justify
that size machine.  (Looking back I wish we had forgotten the lawn and
put in a garden instead.) If we ever have use for another tiller it *will*
be a Troybilt.  I cannot speak about the help available from Garden Way
because with no problems I never had occassion to access it.

------------------------------

From: jpr@walney.com (Jim Rutt)

I use a 8 horsepower TroyBilt "Horse" tiller, and it takes maybe
an hour to till our 800 or so sq ft garden - three passes - one slow
and two fast.  Same in the fall when we put on the rye - so rental
should be pretty minimal.  I really like the TroyBilt, NO problems
at all in 6 years, and ours wasn't even new - it was "rebuilt" from
the carcasss of an old beat up one,  TroyBilt has a standing deal to take
the carcass of dead one and "rebuilt" it to *just about as good as new*
for 50% of the current new price.  A heck of bargin if you can find that
carcass!.

------------------------------

From: dougl@hpdmd48.boi.hp.com (Doug Leno)

Interesting that [Susan Hunt had] such a bad experience.  mine has been quite 
the opposite.  Though I found differences among the folks at Troy's tech service,
they were generally helpful.  I did find one person especially helful (her
name is Debbie - hope she still works there).

I bought an 8 year old 6 HP Horse last fall from a co-worker.  I've made
several phone calls to Troy (about parts compatiblity, use, maintenance, etc)
and I am currently on the owners mailing list (I get the TroyBuilt Owner
News).  I even asked them if the dozer blade required chains for good
performance and they suggested that I didn't need them.  In short, they have
treated me like a new customer.  I wasn't to impressed with some of their
prices, but ended up comparing with the local dealer to find a better deal on
a guard/dozer blade combination.  I purchased a new tine set (new
face-hardened) direct from Troy (good investment by the way).

Of course, with regard to the engine, Troy does take somewhat of a back
seat and will refer you to the engine manufactuer.    I asked them about
a cracked carb housing and they just threw up their hands and said - go
see Briggs.  I ended up talking to a repair shop here locally that
solved my problem quite inexpensively.

>One other comment, there's a lot more maintenance and upkeep required for
>the machine that I expected.  If you're not used to this, you might 
>prefer to rent and avoid the hassle.

This of course would be true of any machine - even lawn mowers require
maintenance such as blade sharpening, deck cleaning, air cleaner maintenance,
and perhaps a new spark plug from time to time.  I think drive shaft end-play
is probably the most unfamiliar maintenance item for the Troys.  Again,
however, the Troy folks were quite helpful in getting me to understand how to
check this and what to do about it.

They were also helpful with regard to oil type.  Troy owners might recall the
specification for only 140W gear oil, and that Troy is now recommending
alternates (since 140W is hard to find or expensive).  Well (with regard to
transmission oil) I asked quite a few detailed questions which they couldn't
answer precisely - so they sent me some 140W free!

with regard to reliability in general, It has been suggested to me that
their older tillers were better, and that (specifically) the smaller
(pony) models are not built as well.  I don't know if this is true or not,
but my (older) Horse machine has been good to me.

------------------------------

From: brown@hpspkla.spk.hp.com (Pat R. Brown)

I just purchased from Sears the 5 HP rear tine tiller with the larger tires. 
It is the craftsman model with the bumper. The catalog price is about $650 
plus shipping. 

This thing works well and seems to be as tough as nails. I have tilled the 
garden (55 ft by 40 ft) twice ( time first time thru was about 6 hours, 
second time thru about 3 weeks later took 2 hours). We are turning about 
2000 square feet of gravel driveway into lawn and I did the first pass 
on Saturday. This was hard packed and had many baseball sixed rocks and  
one football sized rock that I ran over 3 times before I found it. The 
tiller did fine. 

When I did my research in Jan and Feb of this year, I considered renting 
and decided aginst it. At 7-8% of new price per rental it would not be 
practical to rent any more than twice a year. This would preclude using 
the tiller to keep the weeks down, turn in green manure at the correct 
time etc. 

This sears craftsman model is 1/2 the price of the comprable Troy-Built 
model and appears of almost the same quality and utility. 


------------------------------

From:	bever@erim.org (Dave Beverstock)

For what it's worth I rent a troybilt every year to do my mom's
garden.  She has clay, clay, clay soil.  They work really well, start
easily, every last one (for 5 years).  

------------------------------

From:	Henry (H.W.) Troup <HWT@BNR.CA>

Consumer Reports had a big article on these early last year.  What I
remember is that Kubota wasn't good.  My local rental place (Rentalex)
had - guess what - only Kubota.  It wasn't impressive but I managed
15x15 (225 sq. ft.) of three year untilled grass on moderated soil in
half a day.  I suspect that you've got two days worth of tilling.

------------------------------

From: boldtp@iccgcc.decnet.ab.com (He who tills his land will have 
plenty of bread, but he who follows frivolity will have poverty 
enough. -Proverbs 28:19)

IMHO.  Troybilt tillers are overrated and overpriced.  I have used several
       tillers.  I purchased an Airens ( looks and acts like a Troybilt )
       and I was happy with it.  Well, I was proud of it, and not unhappy.
       I found it dead in a lawn mover shop, and got it for a little over
       the price of a new engine ( 8hp, electric start, for about $350 ).
       2 years latter, I loaned it out, it died, I did not reclaim or
       repair.

       2 more years go by, I research and purchase a MAINLINE ( similiar
       to BCS )(NEW).  It is 5.6 hp rear tine.  It has an automotive
       style clutch not belts.  It has an 8 lbs flywheel.  NO electric
       start.  3 years pass.  This tiller has stalled on me only twice,
       both time I had picked up large object ( once was a brick ).  It
       always starts on the second pull.  It is lighter than the same size
       troybilt and easier to handle.  It has some drawbacks.  It is a low
       rider, the automotive clutch means the engine sits much lower.

       Like someone else said, if you want something like a Troybilt, there
       are much cheaper copies on the market that have the same quality.  If
       you want to pay as much as you would for a Troybilt, why not get a
       high quality machine?

------------------------------

From:	jbd@cs.duke.edu (Joanne Bechta Dugan)

My husband has a BCS "system" and he likes it very much.  He has the cutter
bar, tiller, chipper/shredder, and utility cart (I think that's all).
His biggest problem is that it takes time to switch over from one mode
to the other, and it's kind of clumsy to do so (he didn't get the fancy
connection system to make this easier).  The tiller is great, better
than what you can rent (most likely).  Probably takes an hour to till
an 800 square foot garden.  Not to hard to do either.

I'm not sure how the costs would have worked out to buy separate pieces
from Troy built.  Depends on how many different accessories you get.

From: freds@hpcc01.corp.hp.com (Fred Saavedra)
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1992 20:06:16 GMT
Subject: Re: INCOMPLETE FLUSHING IN A TOILET
Organization: the HP Corporate notes server