From: fein@acsu.buffalo.edu (Foto Fein)
Newsgroups: rec.games.empire
Subject: The REAL story. WOOO!
Date: 6 Apr 92 23:11:09 GMT
Organization: UB


Greetings... I will respond to two different articles here.. those marked
with the >> belong to Dreadlands, those with the > belong to Wyvernal..
	
In article <1992Apr5.181128@IASTATE.EDU> wyvern@IASTATE.EDU (Michael A Tilp) writes:
>In article <1992Apr5.202422.23912@nic.umass.edu>, s2842276@titan.ucc.umass.edu
>(Wanderer) writes:
>> Well it appears the UB has come to a close, and just before i was going
>> to quit too... I didn't even have the chance to send out my *final* 
>> announcement. I suspect that the deity shut the game down just so that 
>> people would NOT be able to find out why the game ended so suddenly.
>
>	I can't say I was going to quit, as I felt that things could have been
>definitely remedied, but after I read Elf's article, I do believe that some
>serious punishments should have been dealt out
> 
	That's rather amusing, Mr. Tilp, because after you let Germany
	(Another player in the same game, that *I* let run your country
	while you were away, botched running your country so bad,
	you cried to LOF (who asked me to help you out..)  that you were going 
	to quit. What should YOUR punishment be?


>> any way here is my final announcement that I never got to make, it should
>> explain to most of you what was going on...
>> 
>> 
>> > Announcement from Dreadlands, (#14)  dated Sun Apr  5 15:33:59 1992

	This announcement NEVER appeared in the game, and is therefore 
	irrelevant. But then so is most of this sorry argument.

>
>[various bitching, but fully rightful bitching deleted]
>

	How is the bitching "fully righteous"? Is there any proof that
	LOF (using the deity country) cheated? Did not YOU benefit
	ALSO in this game from cheating? Who decides if Dread is right?
	You? Who appointed YOU judge and jury? 


>> Having recieved several reports from many different people regarding various
>> people's cheating (including LOF, who claims that Dopey was cheating) (but 
>>how
>> would he know without using the Deity account?) Why was he in the deity
>account
>> answering questions? Why couldn't he answer questions from his own country?

	REPORTS FROM WHO? WHO, GODDAMMIT, JUST *WHO*? WHY IS IT THAT NOT
	*ONE*  REPORT OF CHEATING CAME MY WHY? WHY IS IT THAT THE *ONLY*
	INCIDENT OF CHEATING WAS FROM DOPEY BREAKING THE DEITY'S PASSWORD
	WAS DISCOVERED BY ME? AND YOU STILL SHOOT OFF YOUR MOUTH SAYING THAT
	YOU HAVE SEVERAL REPORTS OF CHEATING?


>
>	There was a hell of alot of cheating going on in this game, NO ONE 
>could
>have managed to count all of the instances.
>  
>> I've had a little bit of fun here, but I can't hope to wage war on the 
>deity.

	From your performance in the game, You could not hope to wage war on
	a tree, unless the tree was blindfolded, gagged and had it's limbs
	tied behind it's back.... And then, maybe.

	AND HOW IN THE NAME OF GOD DO YOU "KNOW" THERE WAS CHEATING GOING ON?
	Do you possess some sort of "second sight"? 



>> I think that Land_Of_Faa should have every sector he owns turned into water
>> as punishment. Plus, I'll be making a post about this, I'd like to get some
>> backup from the rest of you on this.

	Make all the posts you want. And LOF has already turned his country 
	into water. Not that I really give a good goddamn what you think,
	since I am not Deitying anymore. 


>
>	I think this should have been done, as well as a few other things
>dealing with vaseline, right LOF?
> 

	You a FAG, boy? Going to go around looking for a butt buddy?
	:-)


>> Don't expect to see the name "the Elf" in a Rodina game again.

	Don't expect me to let you play in one. Trash my name, I'll trash yours


>
>	Same here!! :(
>

	So, I guess you're really going to show me, eh? I quit, LOF fucks
	up by letting the cat out of the bag, and I'm the bad guy.
	

>> No offence to M. Fien, just this has been a colossal waste of time and 
>>effort
>>to see all this work go down the drain, because people were using the diety
>>country.


	Sorry, excuse me if I do take offense here. 


>
>	"Colossal" is far too un-superlative a word to describe the waste of 
>time.
>As it is, I am Wyvernal, and I expect that I spent more than 6 hours a day
>trying
>to get my country running a smoothly as possible. Multiply that by the length
>of
>the game and add the hours I spent trying to learn everything about the game,
>and
>you'll get a very large chunk of time.
>
	I bet "colossal" threw you until you looked it up in the dictionary.
	If you spent six hours a day running your country, then you
should learn about task management. Most of the good players (Hi, Redline)
are EXCELLENT at managing their time. That's why they do so well.
	Oh, and the only person using the deity account besides me (that had
	my permission to) was LOF, AFTER I STOPPED DEITYING.
	The incident with Dopey was this: He cracked the P-word for the 
	deity country. While I was checking out the logs *I* found this out.
	I asked him about it, and he basically told me to get lost. 
	So after Mith found out about Dopey's cheating, he paved him.

>> Oh and yes that does count as running more then one country...

	Something Wyvernal did... Or had done. But that seems to escape
	everyone.

>
>	As I am new to the game, I don't fully understand why it is improper
>to run another's country. It was done by me, only to prevent another's waste
>of past work, but I received an ok from rodina when I did such. I WOULD like 
>to
>hear from others on what they think of this, I haven't found sufficient reason
>why it is improper to do so, nor do I know of anywhere to look to find such
>information.
>  

	It would apperar that you do not understand quite a bit of the game.
	RIGHT IN THE "info rules" it states VERY CLEARLY that running 
	more than one country is prohibited. It also states the penalty.
	Ignorance is no excuse. If you want to pick hairs, then I can too.

	Why is it improper? Because it can be of enormous benefit to have more
	than one country to run. Say someone takes your country out.
	Well, you always have country B to play from. See the logic?


>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> 
>> as I went to send out this announcement I got the follwing message :
>> 
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> 
>> Welcome...
>>  
>> 
>> 	-=O=-
>> The game is over. It has been taken down due to a dispute
>> that has no possible resoulution.
>> 
>> This will not be the last game here at UB, of that I promise you.
>> 
>> To all those that played ESPECIALLY the newbies that did really well,
>> I offer congratulations.
>> To those of you that spoiled it for the rest of us,
>> well, nothing more need be said.
>> 
>> 			-The Management.
>> 
>> The game is down
>> gamedown
>> Bye-bye
>> Exit: so long...
>> 
>>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------


>
>	I question why rodina had the game end in this way. You can make
>your own judgements, but I assume it was done so that Rodina could save his
>*ss. If it can be done, I will make sure that what has happened will become
>fully known.
>	"as for those of you that spoiled it for the rest of us" (?!?!?!) Who 
>in the hell do YOU think you're talking about Rodina?
> 

	LOF has put the game back up. (With my blessing, and I will be
	continuing on to take care of the bookkeping in my acct.
	And it was not so I could save my ass. As it stands right now, the
	game is simply a battle to see who finishes thrid. 

	LOF is now the Deity. His country was deleted (By me) into water
	sectors. Since I have no desire to continue running the game,
	And since LOF has indicated that he will, and he has promised me 
	he will not interfere, and since I TRUST HIM IMPLICITLY, he can
	run the game.

	And spare me your idle threts, Wyvernal. If I hadn't helped you out
	when you were crying and whining, you'd be pitching pennies right now.
	You shouldn't even be in the game right now. But I do you a 
	favor and you fuck me. 

	Now who spoiled it?
	In MY opinion, LOF and Dread can share the blame equally..
	LOF for letting someone know that he was running the game, and 
	Dread for squealing like a pig when he found out.

	
>> to comment on the line "To those of you that spoiled it for the rest of us,"
>> 
>> Yes, to Land_Of_Faa I say PPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPHHHHHHHHHHHHHHTTTTTTTTTTTT.
>> and I hope I don't have to put up with your nonsense again.
>
>	Agreed!!!
> 

	Well, I'll let LOF fight his own wars. But it's really funny, you know.
	Throughout all the game, with the exception of Wyvernal, the only
	players that cried and whined at every turn was the experienced
	players. The Newbies just played. So I congratulate them.



>> To Mithrilien (no you can keep Dopey), Taliensis (thanks for the loan),
>> Hanina (planes dude, more planes), Bongoland (good fight, *bonk*),
>> Wyvernal (good first game, you learned a lot), Fester (lost graciously),
>> and all the others that made the game worth playing... Thank You.



>
>	Thanks for the compliment, I'm sorry that I ever insulted you or the
>other Dread in this game. My apologies.
> 
>[alot of important stuff from the Elf deleted]
> 
	Wow, note the FLAGRANT brown nosing here. Guess Wyvernal has found
	his Butt Buddy. :-)
	
	Yes, Dread, compliment Wyvernal for doing well when he had the
	help of a deity... 

>> there was talk earlier of Mith & Dread quitting anyway due to the deity
>> changing the win conditions, oddly enough at Land_Of_Faa's request,
>> the new win condition was that only one winner be announced.
	 
	I never saw Dread threaten to quit over the change in victory
	conditions. Note also that (for the record) I NEVER SET VICTORY
	CONDITIONS BEFORE THAT DAY! YOU assumed the victory conditions.
	I cannot be blamed for your assumptions.


>
>	Amazing. Unbelievable. Why would Rodina ever want to change the win
>conditions? I could never guess.
> 

	Why don't you shove your nose FURTHER up Dreadland's ass?
	And the WIN CONDITIONS WERE *NOT* CHANGED AT LOF REQUEST!
	*I* set them of my own free will.. IF YOU WILL RECALL, LOF
	WAS THE ONE WHO CHANGED THEM, WHEN HE TOOK OVER
	DEITYING!!!

>> This game was far from over. And Land_Of_Faa could not hope to win it
>> by any means. Chances are that Dreadlands or Mithrilien would have taken
>> him out, perhaps a team effort. Certainly our allies were in a better 
>> position then his. But how can you win when the enemy's ally is the deity?

	No, when there's a 40,000,000 point lead between third and fourth,
	it seems pretty obvious that the game is winding down...
	And how do you know whose allies were in a better position?


>
>	Far FAR from over. I still had many opportunities open in this game
>for advancement. I hadn't gotten the chance to prove myself in empire yet,
>and I was desperately waiting for it. You don't sit just below the top ten in
>your first game and not feel that you're doing something right. I would much
>have rather been decimated by someone else than have the game end in this way.

	When are you guys getting married? :-)	

	Yes, the game was AND STILL IS far from over. But mark my words.
	No one that is not in the top three now WILL be when the game is over.
	
	Just below the top ten? Please, there are less than 30 countries in
	the game now. And most of them could wipe you out at the drop
	of a hat. And if you are so anxious to prove yourself, go back
	in the game and play. It's up, and LOF is gone as a player.
	So put your money where your mouth is, G.
	Or are you all talk?



>	This makes me sick.
		So does the shameless ass kising you are doing to
	Dreadlands. Talk about ill. I think I am going to vomit.
		And so also does that letter you sent me. I'm a son of a 
bitch, eh?. Wow, I am SOOOOOOO offended.

>
>	Wyvernal, wyvern@iastate.edu, Michael A. Tilp



			Lawrence Fein,
		fein@vodalus.acsu.buffalo.edu