HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc,alt.atheism
Subject: Re: Stop thinking? (Was: Why I am an atheist)
From: adams@spss.com (Steve Adams)
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1992 15:01:16 GMT
 <1992Sep10.195518.1571@adobe.com><adams.716184466@spssig> <92255.141649MVS104@psuvm.psu.edu>
Organization: SPSS Inc.

<MVS104@psuvm.psu.edu> writes:

>In article <adams.716184466@spssig>, adams@spss.com (Steve Adams) says:
>>
>>mmwang@adobe.com (Michael Wang) writes:
>>
>>This doesn't explain how it arises....all it does is explain how it
>>mutates.  Where did it COME from?  Why are people evil?  Take Stalin or
>>Hitler...what made them evil?

>I notice no one ever asks where good came from. What's this nonsense
>supposed to mean? "oh, I imported my personal evils from New Zealand."
>(It's a joke guys, so take it that way) It would appear that we made
>them evil. I doubt many people think of themselves as "evil" in the
>sense you're thinking of. The rest, perhaps are just deluded into
>thinking that "evil" is actually good and vice versa. Hitler thought
>he was doing great things for his country...

Ok.  Fine.  Where does good come from?  Is there really any such thing as
good or evil???  If so, where did they come from?

>>That's true.  God had advance knowledge.  If you've looked at all at the
>>coversations I've had with Sean Hartigan, you'll know I recognize this, but
>>still maintain that evil was actualized by man, even though it was created
>>(or at least the logical possibility of evil) by God.

>I'm not going to bother going into the idea that your god's evil based
>on that he created evil, I'm sure someone else has or will. Besides, who
>told you that it was man who "actualized" it? The bible? (snicker) God
>himself? IS there a little bias there? Perhaps your god is lying to you
>and making the actualization bit up so he doesn't look bad?...

Hmm.  'Snickering' at the Bible isn't new, and obviously you haven't paid
much attention to other things I've written on that subject...

 -Steve
--
 The opinions expressed above are those of the author and not SPSS, Inc.
                        -------------------
     adams@spss.com                           Phone: (312) 329-3522
     Steve Adams   "Space-age cybernomad"     Fax:   (312) 329-3558
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc,talk.religion.newage
From: rpitts@emperor.gatech.edu (Richard Pitts)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: There are two years left!
Date: 9 Sep 92 18:30:54 GMT
Organization: CERL-EE, Georgia Institue of Technology

In article <1992Sep9.164331.15457@linus.mitre.org> m23364@mwunix (James Meritt) writes:
-In article <67872@hydra.gatech.EDU> rpitts@emperor.gatech.edu (Richard Pitts) writes:
-}In article <1992Sep8.195107.8340@linus.mitre.org> m23364@mwunix (James Meritt) writes:
-}|In article <67831@hydra.gatech.EDU> rpitts@emperor.gatech.edu (Richard Pitts) writes:
-}|}In article <1992Sep8.172736.1879@linus.mitre.org> m23364@mwunix (James Meritt) writes:
-}|}>
-}|}>Bad news.  The end of the world came and went.  NONE of you are worthy!
-}|}
-}|}Regardless of whether anyone of us is worthy or not, we would all know it, as
-}|}Jesus described in the following passage:
-}|}...
-}|}   Mat 24:27   For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in
-}|}      the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
-}|...
-}|And you MISSED it!!!!
-}
-}No.  You didn't read verse 27 very close or so it seems.
-}
-}    Mat 24:27   For as lightning that comes from the east IS VISIBLE even in
-}       the west, SO WILL BE the coming of the Son of Man.
-}
-}It will be visible, just as the lightning is.
-
-To a blind man, though something is visible it will not be seen.  And there
-appear to be many blind to THE WAY here - including you, apparently.

You know He made the blind see, don't you?

I've lost you Mr. Meritt - which THE WAY are you telling me I am blind to?

Is it THE WAY that you voice about that knows :-) the end has come?

Or is it THE WAY that believes and preaches Jesus as Lord as we his servants
and of whom believe that ALL that is ALL will see His return?

-Food for thought:  Notice how there are many claims made about how clear
-the "word of god" is, yet there are still those who do not see the same

Scripture tells us that things of the spirit are hidden from those without 
the spirit.

-thing?  What makes you think that this is not just another example of
-selective blindness, refusing to see what you don't want to?

Scripture also tells us that people are blinded due to thier own desire
to believe the lie.

For Christ and His Kingdom,
Richard Pitts

-- 
rpitts@cerl.gatech.edu       |    
Atlanta, GA                --|-- 
                        -|-  |  -|-
                         |   |   |
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc,alt.atheism,alt.politics.homosexuality
From: lfoard@Turing.ORG (Lawrence C. Foard)
Subject: Re: BofA and UW can now support discrimination against blacks and Jews
Organization: The Turing Project, Charlottesville Virginia.
Distribution: usa
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1992 22:59:53 GMT

In article <1992Sep6.172422.10027@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu> mycroft@hal.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Charles Hannum) writes:
>
>(First of all, I'm not Karen, and I'm not Christian.)
>
>If *I* were going to organize a movement to deal with crime, I would
>try to do it without being myself prejudiced.  Equating a "gay rights"
>movement with "fighting crime against gays" specifically ignores the
>bigotry and hatred that comes from some gays, 

There are some bigotted gays, and you will see them condemned by other gays.
However the fact that there are some jerks that are homosexual should have
no more bearing on my right to live in safety than the fact that there are
some jerks that are heterosexual should have on yours. 

>and in many cases has
>made it worse.  (For example, have you ever read "Attitude!"?  I'm
>curious just how many gays actually believe that crap.)

Never heard of it. 

1) How many times have you heard a friend say that there lover/good 
   friend was killed in an anti-heterosexual hate crime?

2) How many death threats have you recieved for being heterosexual?  

3) How many kids commit suicide because of hatred against heterosexuals? 

4) How many jobs have you lost as a result of anti straight bigotry?

Compare your answers to my answers after being out of the closet for one
year.
1) 5 that I can remember but I've lost count.
2) 1 serious one, and lost count of casual threats.
3) 1/3rd of teen suicides for 1/10th of the population.
4) 1
-- 
------          Join the Pythagorean Reform Church!               .
\    /        Repent of your evil irrational numbers             . .
 \  /   and bean eating ways. Accept 10 into your heart!        . . .
  \/   Call the Pythagorean Reform Church BBS at 508-793-9568  . . . .
    
Xref: sparky talk.religion.misc:15658 alt.religion.kibology:3717
From: lfoard@Turing.ORG (Lawrence C. Foard)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Re: Pythagorean Reform Church
Date: 4 Sep 92 22:44:32 GMT
Organization: The Turing Project, Charlottesville Virginia.

In article <188k4jINN80a@agate.berkeley.edu> lizi@ocf.berkeley.edu (Cosma R. Shalizi) writes:
>   Alright, confess, you've been reading Bertrand Russell again,
>haven't you? The "Mathematician's Nightmare" in _Nightmares of Eminent
>Persons_, to be specific. And besides, you know that the TRUE holy
>number is not 4 but 137!!! Great Cthulhu will deal with heretics like you
>when the time comes.

Be gone you heathen picker upper of irrational numbers of dropped beans!
-- 
------          Join the Pythagorean Reform Church!               .
\    /        Repent of your evil irrational numbers             . .
 \  /   and bean eating ways. Accept 10 into your heart!        . . .
  \/   Call the Pythagorean Reform Church BBS at 508-793-9568  . . . .
    
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc,alt.atheism
From: pharvey@mipos3.intel.com (Paul Harvey)
Subject: Re: Stop thinking? (Was: Why I am an atheist)
Organization: things that make you go hmm
	<dabrowsk.715318926@liveboard10> <1992Sep9.001159.7407@ac.dal.ca> 
	<xssnnf@lynx.unm.edu>
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 18:17:34 GMT

In article <xssnnf@lynx.unm.edu> jfreter@triton.unm.edu (The Myth) writes:
>In other words, you must turn off all thought to be a theist.  This requires
>more effort than keeping the brain open and thinking.

Hmm, it's a bit difficult to argue with this kind of "intellectual"
argument. It certainly appears to make theism seem challenging. Why does
this sound like something Dan Quayle would say? Are you a member of Quayle's
council to overthrow the corrupt intellectuals in Hollywood who are
ruining this great country? Or do you have a vested interest in the
frontal lobatomy lobby?
From: markwc@barney.esl.com (Mark Christiansen)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Rich men and Heaven
Date: 14 Sep 92 06:07:27 GMT
Organization: ESL Inc., Sunnyvale, CA

In article <ksand-100992121208@wintermute.apple.com>
ksand@apple.com (Kent Sandvik) writes:

>I have to post another posting about the social statements Jesus
>did. In general he wasn't that much interested about 'communistic
>ideals'. His main motto was that the Kingdom of God was near, and 
>everyone should just leave their jobs, join him and wait for the 
>great day. This is actually the main message when he wanted the rich
>man to sell everything he got and join Jesus.

Huh??  That was nearly 2000 years ago!  I find your statements hard to
believe!  I can believe that he required the rich man to give all he
had as a test of his true devotion to God, Christ choosing something
obviously very difficult for this man to do.  But to claim that he
said ALL are required to quit work and preach for their whole life is
really pushing it.

So, what do you do for a living?

Mark
-- 
   When I examined myself and my methods of thought I came to the
conclusion that the gift of fantasy has meant more to me than my
talent for absorbing positive knowledge.
   -- Albert Einstein
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
From: pharvey@mipos3.intel.com (Paul Harvey)
Subject: Re: Stop thinking? (Was: Why I am an atheist)
Organization: and a time for backpeddling ...
	<BuLC0w.28r@nntp-sc.Intel.COM>
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 23:36:55 GMT

In article <BuLC0w.28r@nntp-sc.Intel.COM> 
pharvey@mipos3.intel.com (Paul Harvey) writes:
>of your own initiative. Once slavery was OK, now we know that no human being
>is a slave because the Lord delivered our kind FROM freedom, but it is us
                                                     ^^^^^^^
>who must KNOW this fact, it is us who must SEE. Once patriarchy was OK, now

Oops, make that delivered FROM slavery. I can't even get my own dogma right.
Better listen to more Wailer's tapes. Sometimes I rhyme slow, but sometimes
I rhyme quick! G, my dog is always barking, but doesn't he remind you of Toto?
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc,alt.atheism,alt.politics.homosexuality
From: max@hilbert.cyprs.rain.com (Max Webb)
Subject: Re: BofA and UW can now support discrimination against blacks and Jews
Organization: Cypress Semiconductor Northwest, Beaverton Oregon
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1992 16:23:11 GMT

In article <1992Sep6.172422.10027@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu> mycroft@hal.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Charles Hannum) writes:
>
>In article <1992Sep3.195809.7692@hilbert.cyprs.rain.com>
>max@hilbert.cyprs.rain.com (Max Webb) writes:
>> So, Karen, how about it? If you and your nice christian clique were
>> beaten with a lead pipe, your eyes gouged, your cars firebombed, and
>> you were fired from your job, and evicted from your residence for
>> being straight, and saw the Cops doing exactly *zip* about it over
>> and over again, what would you do? I'll bet you would try to organize
>> a straight-rights movement.
>

>If *I* were going to organize a movement to deal with crime, I would
>try to do it without being myself prejudiced.  Equating a "gay rights"
>movement with "fighting crime against gays" specifically ignores the
>bigotry and hatred that comes from some gays, and in many cases has
>made it worse.  (For example, have you ever read "Attitude!"?  I'm
>curious just how many gays actually believe that crap.)

Ahhh. But you appear to sympathize with a movement that does claim to deal
with Gay 'crimes', while not addressing the bigotry and hatred that
comes from some heteros.

Why insist that _they_ drop their anger first? 

Tell you what, though. When the Gay rights movement tries to pass
legislation legalizing discrimination against straights, then
I will be fighting on _your_ side. Fair enough?

>Charles Hannum, mycroft@ai.mit.edu

Regards,
	Max G. Webb

Xref: sparky talk.religion.misc:15763 alt.atheism:16629
From: bobb@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Robert Beauchaine)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc,alt.atheism
Subject: Re: Faith
Date: 6 Sep 92 15:51:32 GMT
Followup-To: talk.religion.misc
Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Beaverton,  OR.

In article <dabrowsk.715286818@liveboard10> dabrowsk@parc.xerox.com (Jarek Dabrowski) writes:
>And I argue that there's no difference (at least in my case) because my
>introspection has shown to me that the notion of God is built into the
>way I feel 'I am'. Thus, I know that God exists with the same certainty
>(or uncertainty) as I know that I exist. (See the discussion below)

  All based, of course, on the notion that introspection is a valid
  tool in evaluating one's psychological makeup.  Introspection was
  tossed as such a tool at least a half a century ago because it was
  proven to lead to all sorts of spurious conclusions.  As long as
  we cannot independently verify your god, we have no reason to
  believe that you are indeed sane, or that your god is nothing more
  than a psychological defense mechanism set up years ago.

  And before you say that the same is true of atheism, remember that
  we have no mystical gods to explain.  As you are the *only* person
  I have ever heard make the claim that god was an inseparable part
  of their existence, I must conclude that your are indeed unstable.

/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ 

Bob Beauchaine bobb@vice.ICO.TEK.COM 

"If I have to resurrect you, I'll resurrect you, whether you like it
or not!"
	 Paul to Jesus, _The_Last_Temptation_of_Christ_

"For dying is not to be feared--it is the final comfort.  As we all
learn, eventually."

  --Robert Heinlein
Organization: Doctoral student, Physics, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc,alt.society.civil-liberty
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1992 16:32:05 -0400 
From: Steven Timm <st0o+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Chicago Tribune on "Religious Freedom Restoration Act"
	<qwwnarf.bskendig@netcom.com>

The Smith decision was that which banned the use of peyote in 
religious ceremonies.  But the results have been used to argue for
the state in a variety of instances, and the results to religious 
liberty have been disastrous in the three years since that time.

In an opinion relating to this decision, Antonin Scalia wrote 
"Religious Liberty is a luxury we can no longer afford."

The religious freedom restoration act is designed to reverse the 
effect of this ruling with legislation.  

Steve Timm
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
From: max@hilbert.cyprs.rain.com (Max Webb)
Subject: Re: Stop thinking? (Was: Why I am an atheist)
Summary: Where is the fount of purple?
Organization: Cypress Semiconductor Northwest, Beaverton Oregon
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 05:26:17 GMT

In article <adams.716310076@spssig> adams@spss.com (Steve Adams) writes:
><MVS104@psuvm.psu.edu> writes:
>>I notice no one ever asks where good came from. What's this nonsense
>>supposed to mean? "oh, I imported my personal evils from New Zealand."
>>(It's a joke guys, so take it that way) It would appear that we made
>Ok.  Fine.  Where does good come from?  Is there really any such thing as
>good or evil???  If so, where did they come from?

I dunno. Where is the source of all things purple? Of all foods I like?
Just because you can name a category implies neither a sink nor a source.
>
>     adams@spss.com                           Phone: (312) 329-3522
>     Steve Adams   "Space-age cybernomad"     Fax:   (312) 329-3558

Regards,
	Max G. Webb
From: rpitts@emperor.gatech.edu (Richard Pitts)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: There are two years left!
Date: 9 Sep 92 16:04:50 GMT
Organization: CERL-EE, Georgia Institue of Technology

In article <ksand-080992173152@wintermute.apple.com> ksand@apple.com (Kent Sandvik) writes:
...
>I do think that trinity can't be really explained with notions
>from the Gospels, mostly because it was an invention defined long
>time after gospels were written.

What about the wrapping up message Jesus gave, you know Matthew 28:18-20,
to go make disciples and baptized them in THE NAME OF THE FATHER AND OF
THE SON AND OF THE HOLY SPIRIT?

Note it is THE name, which is singular, and yet there are three.

Also, what about when Jesus was baptized and the Holy Spirit descended
on him and the voice from heaven said this is my son.  Note: Holy Spirit,
Jesus (the Son) and the Father, the voice which spoke and was apart from
the Holy Spirit of God and the Son of God.  Three again.

>Cheers,
>Kent

For Christ and His Kingdom,
Richard Pitts

-- 
rpitts@cerl.gatech.edu       |    
Atlanta, GA                --|-- 
                        -|-  |  -|-
                         |   |   |
Xref: sparky talk.religion.misc:15933 alt.atheism:16836
From: ksand@apple.com (Kent Sandvik)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Sean: TESTIMONY CALLO
Date: 9 Sep 92 00:50:06 GMT
Followup-To: talk.religion.misc
Organization: Apple

In article <gate.0TDRqB1w165w@lakes.trenton.sc.us>,
kalki@lakes.trenton.sc.us (kalki) wrote:
> KS>Thus I would never accept a slave-master relationship between
> KS>a god and a human. This was the norm 1000 years ago, this is no
> KS>longer the social norm.
> 
> (Kalki responds)
>  It is not possible to avoid serving others. Everyone serves someone:
>  it is a law of material nature. The laws of nature are controlled by
>  God, and therefore everyone is factually His servant, whether the
>  servitude is direct (in loving devotion) or indirect (in fear or
>  anger).

Don't you live in US, and are protected by the US constitution????
Heck, I live without a slave-servant religious relationship with
forces that I don't see, smell, hear or touch? Do you believe in
woodoo??? :-)

Kent

"I would rather have a thousands idiots attacking my position, than
have one idiot helping to defend it."	[Paraphrased from Voltaire]
-------------------
Kent Sandvik (UUCP: ....!apple!ksand; INTERNET: ksand@apple.com)
DISCLAIMER: Private activities on the Net.
From: mmcgreg@uswnvg.com (Mark McGregor)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Wrong Pronoun
Date: 5 Sep 92 18:45:23 GMT
Organization: U S WEST NewVector Group, Inc.
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5


Did any one take the time to examine the possible range of meanings of
the word "image" in the Hebrew?  Probably not.

How about this for a possibility.  Image might not refer to anything
"physical".  Rather, this could refer to the idea that man and woman
were created as "spiritual" beings (i.e. having spirits, souls,
whatever).  Could image refer to the idea that humankind is relational,
cognitive, rational (although I frequently doubt that humans are
rational because we do such stupid things), etc.?  It could also refer
to the original state of man and woman in the garden -- pure, holy,
sinless, etc.

Image is much more than physical, and to interpret this in a purely physical
sense based on your reading of an English word is not a good idea.

My opinion:  both man and woman were created in the image of God, and
in Genesis 1:27, image has nothing to do with sex.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mark McGregor -- mmcgreg@uswnvg.com

In Christ Jesus there is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male
nor female....

Galatians 3:28
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: rpitts@emperor.gatech.edu (Richard Pitts)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: There are two years left!
Date: 15 Sep 92 13:24:10 GMT
Organization: CERL-EE, Georgia Institue of Technology

In article <1992Sep15.012858.20729@newsroom.utas.edu.au> Tim.ONeill@english.utas.edu.au (Tim O'Neill) writes:
|In article <68149@hydra.gatech.EDU>, rpitts@emperor.gatech.edu (Richard Pitts) writes:
|> 
|> In article <1992Sep14.161647.7312@linus.mitre.org> m23364@mwunix (James Meritt) writes:
|
|> >I did it myself.  I'm God.  Didn't you know that?  If you don't agree, I
|> >extend to you the same challenge as last year: prove I'm not.
|> 
|> Make the pencil on my office table write your name on the yellow pad
|> on top of my printer.  The pad is blank and the pencil is sharp and has 
|> an eraser, in case you make a mistake.  You are claiming to be an all
|> powerful god, aren't you?
|
|This is interesting Richard. What you're saying is that gods can prove
|themselves to people by fulfilling requests like the one you state above.
|Well, I just asked your God to make my mouse levitate for a few seconds,
|but the bastard hasn't done it. Does this mean Yahweh is no more a God
|than Jim Meritt? ;->

Paul told us that the Greeks look for wisdom, as is a popular concept today,
and the Jews look for signs, but we (Christians) preach Christ and him
crucified.  Mr. Merritt has to tell us what he can do to prove he is a god.

Jesus the Christ in human flesh is the ALL the witness we need and this
is the proof we need that God exists.  He finished His work and now is 
sitting at the Father's right hand waiting for all His enemies to be made 
His footstool.

|Tim O'Neill
|Tasmanian Devil

For Christ and His Kingdom,
Richard Pitts
-- 
rpitts@cerl.gatech.edu       |    
Atlanta, GA                --|-- 
                        -|-  |  -|-
                         |   |   |
From: danoc@earlybird.Eng.Sun.COM (Dan O'Connell [CONTRACTOR])
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Jesus & the Sin of the World
Date: 9 Sep 1992 18:10:59 GMT
Organization: Subvert the Dominant Paradigm, Inc.
NNTP-Posting-Host: earlybird

 hartigan@ac.dal.ca wrote:
 : 
 : Here's what I think: this "justice" is incompatible with any meaningful
 : definition of loving. HE creates us as the miserable sinning creatures we
 : supposedly are - then he "justly" condemns us for being miserable
 : sinning creatures.  
 
(Mark McGregor) writes:

 From a Biblical perspective I must disagree with this statement.
 
 1)  Humankind was not originally created as "miserable sinning creatures".
     The Genesis narratives indicate that it was a humankind's own choice
     which put humankind in this position.

You still do not directly address Mr. Hartigan's point above, in that
the Genesis narratives show that god created man; if god created man,
and if god is omniscent, then god created man knowing in advance the
choice Adam would make.

 2)  Love meets Justice in God's act of redemption, through which humankind
     is offered the way out of their position.

Precisely the "position" god put humankind in in the first place.

 "Because God acts in a just manner, what He does is just"

The problem here is that then humankind has no way to distinguish
"justness" since it is defined by a seemingly capricious god's
actions of which we cannot predict using our "god-given" intelligence.

I have yet to see a reasonable defense of god's justness given the
above from any christian apologist.

From what I can tell, the biblical defense against god's "inhumanity"
is that god does not follow the same reasons you or I do, and is not
answerable to man; assuming for the moment all of the above, it seems
to confine god to the hebrew bible picture of thundering tyrant.

Dano

P.S.:
 
 The sacrifice was that Jesus gave up His deity, assumed the form of a
 man, lived the life of a man (except without sin), and then gave up what
 he had -- his life -- in order to offer what was required to redeem man.

BTW, this is contrary to much christian theology which states that
the Christ is the logos (word) made flesh: i.e., that Jesus, as the
Christ is/was both god AND man.



Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc