Newsgroups: alt.discrimination,soc.culture.african.american,misc.education
Subject: Re: Institutional racism 
From: ohall@violet.ccit.arizona.edu
Date: 18 Dec 92 13:24:19 MST
 <1992Dec17.111447.1@milori.ccit.arizona.edu> <BzGEr2.1vr@quake.sylmar.ca.us>
Distribution: usa,local
Nntp-Posting-User: ohall

In article <BzGEr2.1vr@quake.sylmar.ca.us>, brian@quake.sylmar.ca.us (Brian K. Yoder) writes:
> In article <1992Dec17.111447.1@milori.ccit.arizona.edu> ohall@milori.ccit.arizona.edu writes:
>>In article <1992Dec17.022822.26077@blkbox>, collins@blkbox (Chad R. Collins) writes:
>>> ohall@milori.ccit.arizona.edu writes:
>  
>>>> Neither of us wants to become integrated!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
  Well, looks like the slithering serpent is trying to pull a fast one by
  deleting relevant information, thus twisting the understanding of the
  messege, via the media.  Brian!  It would be appropriate if you would insert
  some type of comment indicating that information has been deleted when you
  perform followups.  Just a bit of USENET ettiquette.
  In order to get the jist of this discussion folks, refer to the original
  posting message #6229 

> Neither of "us"?  Who might that be?  Do you think that all blacks think alike
> on this issue?  That all whites do?  Come off it.
>
  Certainly not!  If they don't they are free to speak out about it in this
  conference.  I thought that was what it was here for.

>>>> Who has been the primary detriment regarding the integration efforts of the 
>>>> 1960's???  Oh no we don't want integration!
>>>> Remember 2,4,6,8 we don't want to integrate?
> 
> Who?  It wasn't me.  I was not even born when that was going on.  I have 
> never thought or said that, do don't go around implying that since I
> look a little like people who have said such things, I agree with them.
> It is about as sensible as saying that because they are black, people must
> agree with Idi Amin.
>
  Idi Amin is not from america.  I believe you are.  If there were groups of
  whites in the south(the bible belt) who didn't feel the same way members of
  thier race did and didn't make it known, then what do you expect American
  blacks to believe in terms of whites in general.  Not to mention.  
  Southern whites were going to burn down a church full of blacks, as the Prez.
  danced around the whitehouse wondering what to do.  So what am I to think?
  Looks like Christianity is only valid when convenient.  
  I liked RFK better.  He acted it out.
 
>>>> I didn't see no white folk in the ghetto trying to integrate into thier 
>>>> schools! 
> 
> NOBODY wants to go to ghetto schools.  Why are you assuming that Ghetto=Black?
>
  You got that right!  So what would your solution have been given the same set
  of circumstances?  Integrate!  Like I said, what a mess!!!
  Ghetto=black.  Watts, Harlem, South Central, Compton, etc.  Real nice pretty
  white neighborhoods.
  
>>>> Blacks may not want to integrate now, at least I don't since, IMO, it has
>>>> been a failure.
> 
> Do you mean that integration has not taken place or that it has not been an
> improvement?
> 
  It hasn't been effective if we, as Americans, are repeating history.  It 
  should have become a natural process instead of having to have some loud 
  protesting black man with a sign talking about how he wants his rights!!!
  Rights have and are still being denied!!!

>>>> Regarding Vanilla Ice.  How many black rock stars do we see?  They are out 
>>>> there.  You can play on my turf but I can't play on yours!
> 
> Depending on how narrowly you define "rock music", there are a lot of them.
> 
  Name them.  Does America in general classify them as rock.  Does thier albums
  rank on billboards ROCK chart?

>>> 	You mean like Michael Jackson and Tina Turner? Just a couple of
>>> examples. I dont really see that part as true- nor have I ever heard a
>>> white person say that they could be a rock star becuase they were black...
>>> As for the 1960's- I dont know, I wasn't born then. All I know about is
> 
>>  Many of you white people really blow my mind.  Just about 3-4 weeks ago
>>  I was having a local battle with university employees on our own local 
>>  conference.  My argument was why is it that the local rock & roll station
>>  doesn't play any of Tina Turner, Mike Jacksons collaborations with rock
>>  artists, John Butcher, Stevie Wonder's remakes of the beatles as well as
>>  many other black artists rock remakes,  but when a white rock artist covers a
>>  black artists song(i.e. Red Hot Chilli Peppers do Stevie Wonders 
>>  "Higher Ground") they get all kinds of airplay on ROCK stations.
>>  The unanimous counter argument was that all the black artists I mentioned 
>>  weren't rock.
> 
> As I understand it, radio stations have very narrow definitions of the artists
> that can constitute their play lists (this is true not just for rock
> stations, but also for country, rap, oldies, etc.).  Do you really think this 
> is a matter of racism?  I'm often not even aware of the race of the
> musicians I'm listening to, and I suspect this is the case for many others
> as well.
> 
  And who has the greatest influence in the media???

>>  So what is it now that YOU PEOPLE are trying to say?  They are rock now?
>>  I can send you a transcript of the discussion if you like.  Better yet I may
>>  even post it in this conference.  Then you can argue the position that Mike
>>  Jackson and Tina Turner are rock.
> 
> If the play list is heavy metal oriented, then no, Jackson & Turner don't
> fit in.  What's your complaint?  Are you saying that their music is of
> the same genre as the other artists?  Does Prince have a hard time getting
> play on the station?  I think his music (well, some of it anyway) has no 
> trouble getting play on straight rock stations.
> 
  Yes Prince does have a problem getting air play on the station.
  Well maybe I'm not in a straight rock town with a straight rock station.  I
  will post the discussion in this conference under the subject: Racism & Rock.

> Do you really think that the program directors at radio stations want to
> keep blacks off the air?  Come off it.  They want to play good music that 
> fits their genre.
> 
  Look at the industry before 1986.

>>> what I have seen in my own lifetime, and what I see two sides that really
>>> have no desire to work things out anymore.
> 
>>  I can't speak for everyone.  As for myself I have tried.  Forget it, the
>>  solution is seperation.  
> 
> Separation of whom from whom?  Would you rather live near blacks or whites or
> honest people or dishonest people or bigots?  My preference is to live near
> honest non-bigots regardless of their race.  Would you care to defend the idea
> that it is better to live next to a dishonest person of your own race than
> an honest one of another race?
>
  See previous postings.  
 
>>>>  How can we live together if we are both so different?  Good question.  Big
>>>>  daddy U.S.A. should have thought about that 400 years ago.
> 
> So different?  I am much more like Thomas Sowell than I am Charlie Manson
> or David Duke.  Why are you so obsessed with race?  Other differences are
> FAR more important.
> 
  You have deleted vital information to suit your own purposes again!!!
  See original posting.  I was reiterating what was said to me as far as "How
  can we live together if we are both so different?" 

>>>>Go back to africa is not that old.  I had to hear it throughout high school
>>>>when neither myself or many whites were familiar with what Africa was all
>>>>about.  So what has happened to that phrase?  Are whites afraid it might
>>>>come true?  I'm game!!!  It is a solution to be considered.  U.S.A. certainly
>>>>has the military strength and financial wealth to carry it out.        
> 
> If that is where you want to go then go.  I don't want to force anyone to 
> stay here against his will.  On the other hand, I would be violently opposed
> to the government shipping out people who don't want to leave.  Why oh why
> do you think it is so terribly important that people of the same race ought to
> have the same ideas?  It's not true that they do now, nor is such a condition 
> likely to develop.
> 
  You paying my way?  I wouldn't expect people to be forced if it were against
  thier will, but it certainly is a solution to be considered.  And IMO it is
  the only solution!!!

>>> 	Well, frankly, I don't think I would mind that- why dont you put
>>> forth a bill with your local rep., and while you are at it why not take
>>> Terry Parks and all his (or her, not sure which) friends with you... you
>>> two seem to be made for each other. Honestly, I try to be reasonable and
>>> what do I get? Another of the ameriKKKa speeches. Save it, I have heard it
>>> all before.
> 
>>  As far as leaving I'm glad you see things my way.  At least I'm not alone.
>>  Now if we could just convince "The Man" to send me and the rest of blacks
>>  away since, I don't want to see yall's ugly face no more and yall don't 
>>  want to see mine. 
> 
> Don't tell me what I want or don't want to see.  What I want to see is good,
> competent, honest, intelligent, non-racist people around me.  I don't care
> what race they are.  It's too bad you consider the importance to be the other 
> way around.
> 
  You did state, and I quote, "Frankly, I don't think I would Mind That"
  regarding seperation?

>>  Nothing like permanent real tangible solutions to permanent real problems.
> 
> One is for racist such as yourself to be shown the error of your ways
> whenever you say things like this.
>
  Racist me with my White as snow grandmother who raised me!!!
  Ooh I am so bigoted!!!
 
>>  It's going to take some time, but I have time.  Might have to shake & quake 
>>  the place up some, but I'll get the job done.  I live for it!!!
> 
> You live for what?  Causing trouble (ie. shaking & quaking) because you
> don't like "the man"?  What a noble goal to have for your life.
> 
  Thank You!
Newsgroups: alt.discrimination