HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: gschlesi@scott.skidmore.edu (Christopher Robin)
Subject: Re: general; use of anger in shakespearean sonnets? was Re: nothing
Organization: Skidmore College, Saratoga Springs NY
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 21:58:36 GMT

mtaranto@shearson.com (Mark Taranto) writes:
> 
> sheilah@wam.umd.edu (sheila disguising herself as Danny-Boy) writes:
>  
> > gschlesi@scott.skidmore.edu (Christopher Robin) writes:
>  
> >> A poem about anger should not be stuck into
> >> Shakespearean Sonnet form etc.
>  
> > This one I am not sure If I will agree with you and have to ask you why.
>  
>  
>  
>         It frustrates me that a fool should dictate
>         To me how I may, my anger, express.
>         Can any emotion: love, lust or hate,
>         Fit into this format?  I answer "Yes!"
>  
>         Christopher Robin, in truth cannot see,
>         that the clashing of content and format
>         will enhance the point -- it becomes a bee
>         that stings you and dumps you on the doormat.
>  
>         Take Housman, with his silly sing-song rhymes
>         Talking of death and folly and sadness,
>         Can you not see it's a sign of the times?
>         To tie form and content is just madness
>  
>         Anger in this format?  You have to love it!
>         If you don't agree, then you can shove it.
>  
>  
> Well, this isn't very serious (and I wouldn't tell C R to shove it,
> except as a joke), but there is a point in there.  Housman is a good
> example of someone who took a simple form, and used it to his advantage.
> Look at A SHROPSHIRE LAD.  There are some pretty serious things that
> he says -- but most of it is done with a nursery-rhyme type of scheme.
> I think that the simple format can work together with a complex idea,
> making it much more effective.
>  
> Richard Thompson has a song about anger and hate.  The melody is that of
> a love ballad.  The effect is incredible.  Why not a Sonnet about anger?
> I'm not talking about the trash I just wrote -- but something where love
> and anger are tied together.  The form would enhance the love aspect, and
> make the anger more startling -- more real.
>  
> Mark
>  
> 
First of all a public apology for my stupid example, but I believe it
turned out for the best. Mark has given us a perfect example of what
could be called a good blending of form and function.  He wanted to
prove my example to be a load of shit so he picked a tone for his
piece in a form which would prove his point (and incidentally my main
point in my last post).  Thanks Mark,

			-The Anti-Poet
Newsgroups: rec.arts.poems
From: lichter@oahu.cs.ucla.edu (Michael I. Lichter)
Subject: material evidence
Organization: UCLA, Department of Sociology
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 92 09:55:52 GMT

		material evidence
		-----------------------------------

		white
		toilet paper, 
		napkins, kleenex,
		folded like fractal
		snowflakes 
		litter
		desk, floor,
		bed, pockets,
		material evidence
		in this trial by
		virus
			
			Michael Lichter
			November 19, 1992
			Santa Monica
From: zeleny@husc10.harvard.edu (Michael Zeleny)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.poems
Subject: Re: Harvard boys / Marek, Re: Another version of "art
Date: 23 Nov 92 05:41:33 GMT
Article-I.D.: husc3.1992Nov23.004134.17717
Organization: The Phallogocentric Cabal

In article <1992Nov22.200157.2898@news.acns.nwu.edu>
marek@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Marek Lugowski) writes:

>In article <1992Nov22.004301.17681@husc3.harvard.edu>
>zeleny@husc10.harvard.edu (Michael Zeleny) writes:

>>In article <1992Nov21.194216.1272792@sue.cc.uregina.ca>
>>PROWSE@Meena.CC.URegina.CA (Natalie) writes:

>...

N:
>>>		more artifacts...
>>>		-------------------------------------------------------------
>>>		
>>>		on a table 
>>>		near her bed
>>>
>>>		stands a bud vase
>>>		which contains a rose
>>>		thirstily drinking itself
>>>		into full bloom.
>>>
>>>		in the trashcan
>>>		near her bed
>>>
>>>		rest six spent, 
>>>		contented condoms.
>>>
>>>		
>>>			-Natalie (I like verbs :-) / November 21, 1992

MZ:
>>You also like wishful thinking and the pathetic fallacy.
>...
>>Hi there, Phil.  Give hell to those douchebags for me!
>>
>>cordially,
>>mikhail zeleny@husc.harvard.edu

ML:
>I fear you would not know the meaning of cordially if it came from MIT and
>lodged in your arse.  This is because you appear already more than slightly
>damaged in that area...

Ah, there is nothing I like better than homoerotic aggression to clear
the sinuses!  Tell me, Marek, how long have you been peering at my arse?

ML:
>Is it me or does everybody else sense a correlation between Harvard boys,
>Russian names and vile disposition?

It must be your blitheringly stupid Polack mind that licences you to use
the noxious "boy" appellation, little fellow.  For all you know, I might
be black, my Russian name notwithstanding.  Kindly curb your repugnant
racist instincts, or this is going to get ugly quick.

ML:
>				     These misogynist male persons obviously
>don't get fucked enough, and one could see why.

How apt, that universal politically correct putdown!  If you have the
first clue of what I wrote, why not call me "androphobic" as well, you
sorry sack of lard and gelatin!

For your information, my sweetie is enjoying an 8-week visit to her
native Shanghai, so it must follow, as night follows day, that I lack the
intellectual credibility needed to converse with your exalted ilk.

ML:
>						 An excellent argument for
>intersecting sex with love to some extent, Mr. PostHummus, wouldn't you say?

Sorry, Marek, you are just not my type.

>				-- Marek
>
>		  "Sweetness, sweetness I was only joking
>		 when I said I'd like to smash every tooth
>			       in your head"
>
>				-- The Smiths, _The Queen Is Dead_

cordially,
mikhail zeleny@husc.harvard.edu
"Le cul des femmes est monotone comme l'esprit des hommes."
Newsgroups: rec.arts.poems
From: PROWSE@Meena.CC.URegina.CA (Natalie)
Subject: its 3am. do you know what your parents are doing?
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 02:44:46 GMT
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.24
Organization: University of Regina, Regina, Sask., Canada

(inspired by a "conversation" with Marek.... :-)

		its 3 am.  do you know what your parents are doing?
		-------------------------------------------------------------

		to sleep, perchance to...

		"honey.  i can't sleep."
		"mmm.... wha?" I *was* asleep.
	        hands, touching, feeling
		my warm recesses 
		(and my not so recessed)
		hotness. hardness. between my legs.
		seeking a warmer, wetter place.
		i respond with drowsy reluctance. 
		but my body does not.
		it acts of its own accord.
		rousing to lusty wakefulness.
		accepting anxious probings.
		ahhh.  i'm awake now.  wide awake.

		my hands, mouth, body, respond with fervor.
		the clock glows cool blue
		contrasting the heat
		of passion beneath the quilt.
		twisting, turning, bodies coming
		apart and together. separate, but one
		in their search for ecstatic release.
		found in shared tumultuous moans and gasps.
		resulting in collapse.

		that was great. i'm still awake.
		my "hon?  want some more?" is
		answered by a contented snore.
		sigh. i suppose that's what
		what hands are for...
		

			Natalie / Nov 17, 1992

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(prowse@meena.cc.uregina.ca   |	"I wonder if you think about me,
		              |	 Once upon a time, in your wildest dreams."
			      |					-Moody Blues
Newsgroups: rec.arts.poems
From: sara@gator.rn.com (Sara Gordon)
Subject: Re: Looking for a poem...
Organization: The Gator Conferencing System 219-289-3745 
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 07:26:59 GMT

cdl0915@ultb.isc.rit.edu (Chris Losinger) writes:



>	"When all alone I beweep my outcast state"
>-- 

when in disgrace with fortune and men's eyes....


(for thy sweet love remembered such wealth brings..that then i scorn
to change my fate with kings)

had to learn this in acting301....shakespeare..one of the iambics :)

liked it much better than the one about chickens and harried housewives
running to and fro...but best yet the 'so are you to my thoughts as
food to life, or as sweet seasoned showers are to the ground'. thats nice,
isn't it? sweet seasoned showers..


-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Talk to me about computer viruses.        sara@gator.rn.com  
                                          SGordon@Dockmaster.ncsc.mil
Newsgroups: rec.arts.poems
From: marek@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Marek Lugowski)
Subject: Re: Hey Marek....
Organization: Northwestern University, Evanston Illinois.
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 02:38:29 GMT

In article <1992Nov22.205234.455@midway.uchicago.edu> alk4@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>I'm one of the boys with a Russian name
>Karan...maybe it doesn't sound conventionally russian,
>but we are.
>
>watch it...or I'll bite off your tongue.
>
>
>:)
>
>Alex
>

Alex, give me a break.  *I* asked you if you were Russian, remember?
You think I want to take on all Russians?  Jeez.  That's a bit much.
Let's just keep it to Harvard boys with vile attitude, ok?  Besides,
there are too many pretty women in Russia to dismiss the place just because
it (sometimes) gives rise to Harvardified dweebosity.

				-- Marek
From: nikolay@husc11.harvard.edu (Philip Nikolayev)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.poems
Subject: Re: Mr. Nikolayev
Date: 17 Nov 92 05:15:19 GMT
Article-I.D.: husc11.NIKOLAY.92Nov16211519
Organization: The Kremlin Wall of Harvard
In-reply-to: jjwebb@cruzio.santa-cruz.ca.us's message of 16 Nov 92 00:40:04 GMT

jjwebb@cruzio.santa-cruz.ca.us writes:

> Mr. Nikolayev,

> So your participation here is motivated by an interest in good
> poetry.  Your means of discerning good poetry, the application of
> reason.

> Reason. That sounds right.
>  
> Why don't you choose one of your favorite poems (not one of your
> own, please) and show us all how you descry its greatness. I assume
> that one of your favorites would fall into the 'great poetry'
> category?

> Or are you just another proponent of the 'poetry slam' school of
> superficial criticism? Can you accomplish more than merely making a
> name for yourself as this week's rabid dog?


>                  JJWebb-- 

Sir or Madam,

I might indeed post and discuss a favourite poem, if asked, in a
nicer tone of voice, by someone who signed his or her full name 
under the message. Besides, given the context of your request, I 
would expect you to present some credentials, because I see no 
point in proving that I am not this week's rabid dog to someone 
who may well be, for all I know, the mangy rat of yesteryear.

Philip Nikolayev
nikolay@husc.harvard.edu
From: daq@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Doug Quarnstrom)
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1992 22:44:36 GMT
Subject: Re: constructive criticism for Doug and Dinosauria
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Fort Collins, CO, USA
Newsgroups: rec.arts.poems

In rec.arts.poems, nikolay@husc8.harvard.edu (Philip Nikolayev) writes:

> daq@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Doug Quarnstrom) writes:
> 
> PN
> > and I use the word critic quite loosely when applying it to
> > you.
> 
> I know. I also know that you use the word poet equally loosely when
> applying it to yourself.

I rarely actually refer to myself as a Poet Niko, because I do 
not think that I am good enough to be considered that.  I
do try to write poetry, and I believe that there are standards.
I believe I do not live up to them, but I want to improve so
that perhaps some day I will write a good poem.  This may never
happen, but the desire is there.

> 
> PN
> >> I simply ask the author of the cited poem to consider my humbly
> >>offered emendations; and I urge Doug to learn this text by heart, so
> >>that it may facilitate his untiring quest for a true identity.
> 
> DQ
> > I have not heart, and I have all the identity that I need, 
> 
> The problem with irresponsible protean little farts like you, Doug,
> is that you don't bother if you contradict your previous statements,
> rejoicing in the variegated chameleonicity of your public personas.
> Are you capable of maintaining a consistent self?

Yes, and you are clearly incapable of dealing with subtlety.
I asked you why you felt it necessary to excoriate beginning 
poets.  Then I claimed it was no skin off my nose if you continued.
I merely wondered why you do it.  My position is consistent.
I do try to be responsible.  Perhaps I do not always succeed.

Protean little fart.  Now that's a good one.

> 
> PN
> >>But soon, reduced to fetid turds, cast from the very heights they
> >>prized, a cesspoolfull of scribbling nerds bewail their being
> >>criticised.
> 
> DQ
> > Very good.  I nearly laughed at this one.  You are improving.  I am
> > not at all sure that the heights are to be prized.  I fully expect
> > that there would be too many gentlemen like yourself hanging around
> > wishing they had the courage to suggest buggery.
> 
> In case you haven't yet figured that out yourself, I am
> not concerned with buggery, but with poetry.

I understand your stated position.

These exchanges are amusing but totally unproductive.  I understand
that you care about poetry, and believe it or not I even agree with
the content of some of your criticism.  Despite this, I have no
qualms about reminding you of your own insignificance.

doug
Organization: Bar-Ilan University Computing Center, Israel
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 10:46:00 IST
From: <X67107@BARILVM.BITNET>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.poems
Subject: Re: To My Readers (c&c welcome)


(Kateri/Mary Anne) says:
>
>To My Readers
>
>You look at a word.
>Dream.
>Fuck.
>Play.
>Rape.
>Death.
>You absorb its impact.
>
>And think...aha!
>I know what she means.
>I know her.
>
>And you are so wrong.
>
>You see an image.
>A man dancing.
>Beating.
>Struggling.
>Loving.
>Screaming.
>You dream a dream.
>
>And think...that's me!
>She's writing about me in that poem of hers.
>She knows me.
>
>And you are still wrong.
>
>I can't read your mind
>and you can't read mine.
>
>All we can do
>is see each other,
>through a glass,
>darkly.
>
>So every time you read a poem
>and think,
>I know what she means.
>She understands me.
>
>You are always wrong.
>But you are also, sometimes, right.
       a bible note deleted

           TELEPHATHIC AGONIES

                           (dream fuck play rape)
             ....    DEATH

        No meaning in the house of pain.
             The beast released,
        The deamon moaning deep within?

        No meaning in the house of rage
             The soul is sold
        For once, a dream within a dream...

        Dream in dream recursed;
        Cantnakerous smiles of Cronithian king;
        Scattered speculers of shattered bones.
                       Who cares at all Today

        If we do know, or not, or care?
        If we do read a bible in trasnlation,
           Or in a form more raw,
              Or if at all?

        Some may see another whithin the murky glass
        Other only see themselves in what may come to pass.

         And if perchance I find
         Telephathic agonies tormenting
         within the upper chambers of my mind
         or other Random taunting,

         Then, who will nurse me back?
         Not (dream fuck play or rape)
         Or any power white or black
         That, LOVE, may try to ape.

         So do forgive me I I don't
         Try and understand you words
         Their meaning is well hidden,
         And may hurt more then swords

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
H A H A H A H A H A H A H A H A H A H A H A H A H A H A H A H A H A H A H
                     Oren THE Laughing Magican
      LAUGHING DOES TICLE THE SOUL, THERE IS NO BETTER REASON
From: bunny@bsu-cs.bsu.edu (Marsh)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.poems
Subject: Poem - 4 Eyes
Keywords: perspective
Date: 19 Nov 92 00:51:07 GMT
Organization: CS Dept, Ball St U, Muncie, Indiana


4 EYES


II

Broken, jagged, innocently rent asunder...
jutting crystals rise from
lace.

Cacaphonous crashing as white horses
bolt their deep, abysmal keep...

diamonds forlorn beg one to join them
there as they crest to their
play -

voices harsh, metallic; strong voices
softened by gentle blowing
wind.

White steeds pause, their nostrils flare...
then plunge, again, far
below.


IV

remote lifeless rocks beckon--
spring to the foam die on the
zenith of the waves, they say;
join us here.

spume pulls back like lips--
reveals keen teath beneath
fine white waves fine white
Death.

dusk betrays these minions
straight from Hell - red blood,
red from the sun: mine does not
mingle there.


-Tracy Flynn-Marsh
From: marek@msel.unh.edu (Marek Lugowski)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.poems
Subject: in my tribe / Marek (1990)
Date: 17 Nov 1992 03:12:15 GMT
Organization: UNH Marine Systems Engineering Laboratory
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: mermaid.msel.unh.edu
Originator: marek@mermaid.msel.unh.edu

(c) 1990 Marek Lugowski.  All Rights Reserved, except personal use copy.



		in my tribe
		-------------------------------------------------------------

		in my tribe
		our tribesmen rape our women.
		
		in my tribe
		we cover our dead with our most sacred logic/magic
		so we don't see 'em for who they have become.
		
		we're ashamed of having dead.
		we're ashamed of having raped women.
		
		some of us are even ashamed of being
		in my tribe.
		
		we are american.
		
		we are jovial.
		sometimes we puke in the right places
		at greek parties
		sometimes we tell funny jokes
		in parking lots
		we rip off each others' 
		radios
		or tax each others' wallets
		or daughters.
		
		in my tribe
		we are proud
		to be
		or not to be
		-- it's not a question
		in my tribe.
		
		in my tribe
		you are a nobody
		but there's always an equal
		or not so equal
		opportunity
		to become an elder
		nobody
		
		you can be a church nobody elders
		you can be a politicians
		you can be a law enforcement officials
		or you can be the few, the proud, the marines
		you can be a crips
		you can be  a bloods
		you can be an independents
		or a republicans
		or a democrats
		
		in my tribe
		we rape and loot and worship and watch t.v.
		all at the same time
		
		we are good at doing this well
		and we are good at doing this a lot
		because we are industrious
		always have been!

		in my tribe.
		

			Marek Lugowski
			20 June 1990
			Lake Monroe, Indiana
		

Newsgroups: rec.arts.poems
From: marek@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Marek Lugowski)
Subject: Re: Brother,Mother,Brother,Father (Part 1)
Keywords: Brother,Mother,Brother,Father (Part 1)
Organization: Northwestern University, Evanston Illinois.
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 21:36:22 GMT

In article <steele.722032310@chip.aem.umn.edu> steele@aem.umn.edu (Stephanie Steele) writes:
>
>
>(this poem is much too long and useless to post all at once, so i will
>torture all of you in little bits....or um, parts.)

I don't know...  I'd like to see all of it at once, unless it is
substantially larger than 75k.  do ls -s <poem-file> to find out.

I suppose little chunks are ok too.

>Brother,Mother,Brother,Father (Part 1)
>
>"Happy families are all alike; every unhappy family is
>unhappy in its own way." L. Tolstoy, *Anna Karenina*
>
>
>1.
>
>Last night i spoke with you brother,
>and i promised to send you a subscription
>to the Boston Herald, because in that Seagoville
>penitentiary all you have is some Dallas rag.
>I will send you the Boston Herald so you can
>read about sports and feel homesick for your     
>wife, your son.
>
>After i hang up, i see you standing in front
>of the prison wall where the pay phone must be.
>You finish your cigarette.  As you walk away i
>cannot focus on your face.  It has been so long.
>I see your shape.  I see a gray, gentle figure
>move into shadow.

This is very good so far.  I'd consider not mixing tenses -- keep
everything in the everseeing present.

			-- Marek
From: alk4@ellis.uchicago.edu (Alex L. Karan)
Subject: Re: Another version of "artifacts" / Natalie
Reply-To: alk4@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1992 07:03:25 GMT

Since I am not so much concerned with what is seen
as with how it is seen,
I don't at all mind Natalie's poem,
nor the fact that it fits with Marek's "fucked girls" 
= "happy girls".

Actually, I have this to say:
We NEED, in our society, a description of sex that is vulgar
and negative, because sex sometiems is.
If Marek wishes to prove that sex is a positive vital force of living,
fine, great.  But leave some negative worlds to describe it as well.


Now, since I see the seen as belonging to the looking,
I wonder about "verbs".

Artifacts don't move. They imply the lack of motion.
Artifacts are used to piece together motion of the past,
right?

You dig it up, look at it, and tell us what role it had in past experience.
You breathe life into it.

That was the point of my poem.  I presented artifacts
and breathed the wrong life into them.
The story I breathed into them didn't quite fit,
stuck out obnoxiously in some places,
made some of you nervous.

Good.  

Natalie's poem is comfortable.  The story breathed into
bones fits well.  So there isn't much need to examine

The NOTION OF LOOKING< constructing context.

But that's ok.  That does not deserve the comment 
it just got from Phil's defender.

Go take a flying fuck at a rolling doughnut.
Hey, its time to post my poem about critics...
Phil, other Harvard fiend, lookie here.

Alex
From: dany@irvine.com (rorschach)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.poems
Subject: poem-untitled  C&C Welcome.
Date: 20 Nov 92 21:32:32 GMT
Organization: Irvine Compiler Corp., Irvine, California, USA

T.S. Eliot, where are you, i love you.
I dreamt last night that you were
showing me how to embed
those beautiful rhymes in a thick
texture of allusion and rhythm
how to burnish words like
glittering salad forks
pour out words so they fill
the mind and run down in rivulets
to pool on the floor
would you do that for me?
oh if i could stay with you
awhile, maybe i could join you
for a cup of tea, maybe you could
write me a poem
oh if only i could live in my dreams
From: alk4@ellis.uchicago.edu (Alex L. Karan)
Subject: Hey Marek....
Reply-To: alk4@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1992 20:52:34 GMT

I'm one of the boys with a Russian name
Karan...maybe it doesn't sound conventionally russian,
but we are.

watch it...or I'll bite off your tongue.


:)

Alex

Newsgroups: rec.arts.poems
From: billie@camelot.bradley.edu (Eliot Frick)
Subject: Poem: The Answer
Organization: The Alexander Skryabin Society
Date: 20 Nov 92 23:45:28 GMT



The Answer
by Sterns Mishael Eliot

The Mist hung over him;
suspended.
"Beg me," it said,
"I will not let you live."

"The Question you must...
answer."
His mind reeled.
No words formed on his lips.

Yelling, Thrashing...
He could do nothing.
"You have no time,"
it whispered, "NOW."

The mastication of his
soul
was complete.
He spoke:

"The life-blood of humanity
flows through a heart 
of shallow discontent.
It courses through veins
of apathy and hatred.
How can I defend
what I do not love?"
--
THE REVOLUTION IS DEAD.  LONG LIVE THE REVOLUTION.  
Eliot F., Speaker of Antigone, The Alexander Skryabin Society.
billie@camelot.bradley.edu
Newsgroups: rec.arts.poems
From: rossi@mtu.edu (Rossi)
Subject: Blue Sky?
Organization: Michigan Technological University
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 04:05:17 GMT



The Sky is Blue?

There once was a man.
       Upon
        a 
         time closed his eyes.
          he saw red.  His heart
           beat against
            his lips.  His
             son watching
              by
               never 
                touching 
                 him either.

   songbird