HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: fester@island.COM (Mike Fester)
Subject: Re: The Monthly Cecil Fielder Thread
Organization: /usr/local/rn/organization
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 15:09:45 GMT

In article <1992Sep4.232153.17376@leland.Stanford.EDU> claudius@leland.Stanford.EDU (Nelson Lu) writes:
>In article <1992Sep4.174435.3715@island.COM> fester@island.COM (Mike Fester) writes:
>
>>How did a guy with lower OBP *AND* lower SLG contribute MORE to his team's 
>>offense? In the BTW category, in 1990, Fielder had the highest SLG and OBP
>>on the team. In '91, he had the highest SLG. This year, he STILL has the highest
>>SLG of anyone who hasn't missed more than ~30 games (as of Aug 30).
>
>Oh Mike.  You mean I have been wrong all this time?

Yes, you have been wrong all this time.

>  I am ashamed of myself.

Actually, I doubt this.

>All positions are created equal.

At the plate, they certainly are, unless there's been a rule change.

> Hal Morris, since he has better stats than
>Barry Larkin, is more valuable, although he's a 1B and Larkin is a SS.
>We should rank players by putting players together by raw stats, ignoring
>their positions.  The Weekly misleads by separating players by positions.
>(insert continued ramblings)

I'll say this slowly; NOBODY HITS AS A SHORTSTOP. You get NO extra credit for 
your OFFENSE as a SHORTSTOP. NONE. A hit is a hit whether it comes from a 
firstbaseman, a DH, or a right fielder. Period. In evaluating an offense,
you use OFFENSIVE statistics, NOT a players' DEFENSIVE position. If this
seems unclear, see Bill James' Abstracts (in particular, his historical 
abstract) for a more complete explanation.

And next time, please read more carefully; I pretty clearly wrote this in 
regard to the Tiger offense, as seen by "How did a guy with lower OBP *AND* 
lower SLG contribute MORE to his team's offense?" Clearer now?

Mike
-- 
Disclaimer - I'm only doing what the little voices tell me to do.
From: bk713@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Kimon Zachary)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: McGwire and Cortisone (was personal attacks)
Date: 15 Sep 1992 04:16:29 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: bk713@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Kimon Zachary)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig) says:

>In article <1992Sep11.202820.28908@honte.uleth.ca> savoy@hg.uleth.ca writes:
>
>>> zuhars@madrone.eecs.ucdavis.edu (Gary FDA Approved Huckabay) writes:
>
>>>Mark McGwire has thus far failed to respond to the cortisone shot he
>>>received earlier in the week, and may be out for the full season,
>>>including the playoffs.  He will play tonight against Seattle, and,
>>>hopefully, will not feel pain in his lower rib cage, but I'm not
>>>betting on it.
>
>>Does anyone one know anything about cortisone shots? Don't they simply dull  
>>the pain? 
>
>No, absolutely not.  They have no direct effect on the pain; cortisone
>is a strong local anti-inflammatory in its effect, which keeps irritated,
>swollen muscles from reinjuring themselves constantly.  Of course, 
>lessening the irritation lessens the pain, too, at the same time as it
>makes healing much easier.  But it's not a painkiller per  se.
>
>>And in the case of a rib-cage injury, wouldn't McGwire be taking a
>>great risk? If he swings his guts out and feels no pain, how can the rib-cage
>>muscle stand the force being exerted on it?
>
>That's a risk either way; of course, after the cortisone shot, the muscle
>isn't in as bad a state, either.

Cortisone (a steroid), administered intramuscularly (ie., by shot), acts as
a local anti-inflammatory, thereby reducing swelling and pain.  It should
be noted that inflammation is a natural component of the healing process; a
muscle tear would not heal more quickly with steroids.  Rather, the process
may be slower.  The reason for giving MM a cortisone, I suppose, is to 
make him better able to tolerate his injury and play with it.

>>I was thinking McGwire should just stay out of the line-up for the next 4
>>weeks and hopefully make it back for the playoffs (if they make the playoffs,
>>that is). If he hurts himself tonight, he might be done for the year.
>
>Again, a risk that his attending physician has to evaluate.
>
I guess that depends on the nature and extent of his injury, neither of which
are familiar to me.

-- 
Kimon Zachary			"I stand by all the misstatements that
JHU School of Med.			I've made." --Dan Quayle
Baltimore, MD		
Regional Chairman, Bill Clinton Bimbo Eruption Patrol
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: claudius@leland.Stanford.EDU (Nelson Lu)
Subject: RC/27 for CFs
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 92 00:27:19 GMT

(Caveat: this is simular in situation to LFs, except here the situation is
reversed; since the average for AL CFs is lower, AL CFs are probably overvalued
and NL CFs undervalued.)

NATIONAL LEAGUE			RC/27	"VALUE"
Andy Van Slyke, Pittsburgh	8.59	4.10
Brett Butler, Los Angeles	6.77	2.48
Deion Sanders, Atlanta		6.66	0.94
Reggie Sanders, Cincinnati	6.59	1.04	; + value as LF; cf. Karros
Lenny Dykstra, Philadelphia	6.58	1.47
Ray Lankford, St. Louis		6.30	1.96
Marqus Grissom, Montreal	5.55	1.32
Otis Nixon, Atlanta		5.46	0.68
NL AVERAGE			5.20
Steve Finley, Houston		5.17	0.91
Darrin Jackson, San Diego	4.68	0.45
Howard Johnson, New York	4.43	0.14
Sammy Sosa, Chicago		4.43	0.11
Dave Martinez, Cincinnati	4.02	-0.08
Doug Dascenzo, Chicago		3.13	-0.47
Darren Lewis, San Francisco	2.97	-0.60

AMERICAN LEAGUE
Ken Griffey, Seattle		8.16	3.74
Kirby Puckett, Minnesota	7.37	3.51
Mike Devereaux, Baltimore	6.20	2.46
Juan Gonzalez, Texas		6.01	1.92
Kenny Lofton, Cleveland		5.62	1.68
Roberto Kelly, New York		5.50	1.31
Ellis Burks, Boston		5.22	0.70
Robin Yount, Milwaukee		4.68	0.86
AL AVERAGE			4.67
Lance Johnson, Chicago		4.66	0.90
Willie Wilson, Oakland		4.62	0.60
Bob Zupcic, Boston		4.52	0.28
Devon White, Toronto		4.11	0.41
Junior Felix, California	3.68	0.01
Gary Pettis, Detroit		3.68	0.00
Brian McRae, Kansas City	3.24	-0.38
Milt Cuyler, Detroit		2.94	-0.44

===============================================================================
GO CALIFORNIA ANGELS!
===============================================================================
Nelson Lu (claudius@leland.stanford.edu)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: paul@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Paul R Krueger)
Subject: Re: Robin Yount
Keywords: 3000 Hits!
Organization: Computing Services Division, University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 22:02:02 GMT

In article <olt.716112283@elwood.isgs.uiuc.edu> olt@elwood.isgs.uiuc.edu (Scott Olt) writes:
>
>Since it doesn't seem to have been mentioned yet, congratulations to
>future Hall of Famer Robin Yount on the occasion of his 3000th hit
>tonight!
>
>(Rumor has it that he got his 1000th and his 2000th, as well as his
> 3000th off Cleveland pitching...is true?)
>
    Yes, it is true. It was quite a moving moment for all Milwaukee fans
    seeing the trio of Gumby, Molly and The Kid embracing at first after
    the big moment. Those three guys have been almost totally responsible
    for all the good memories of baseball in Milwaukee since the Braves
    left town.

    To bad Darren Holmes slipped and threw away an easy out at first to
    let the Indians score two and win the game. Unfortunately, it kind of
    left a sour taste in my mouth on such a memorable night.

    --salty


Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: claudius@leland.Stanford.EDU (Nelson Lu)
Subject: Park Effect: Montreal
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 92 07:08:41 GMT

While trying to calculate some park factors tonight, I ran across a problem:
since the Expos played the last X games on the road, the factors can't be
adjusted easily without knowing what X is.  My question is, then, what is X?

Thanks in advance.  (It would be even nicer to know which teams got the extra
home games...)

===============================================================================
GO CALIFORNIA ANGELS!
===============================================================================
Nelson Lu (claudius@leland.stanford.edu)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: hasch@jhuvms.hcf.jhu.edu (Bruce M Hasch)
Subject: Disaster in Baltimore...
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: The Johns Hopkins University - HCF
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 20:30:00 GMT

	In what may have been the ugliest game I've seen this year, the Yankees
squeaked by the O's last night by a final score of 16-3.  The O's have now
fallen 2 1/2 games behind the Blue Jays, and will try to avert a sweep tonight.
	I don't have a box for the game, but Danny Tartabull had 9 RBI's for
New York.  Now, I know that RBI's don't count :-), but I'm still curious as to
what the major league record is for most RBI's in a 9-inning game is.  
	And, true to form, anytime the opposing team scores in two digits, you
can be assured that The Human Batting Tee, Mike Flanagan, had something to
do with it.  Last night, his line went something like 2/3-5-5-5-0-0, with
a towering blast to Tartabull being one of the hits.  This should bring HBT's
ERA to somewhere around 9.00 for the season.  Jim Acker would be proud.  
        Oates made a lineup change last night, removing Glenn Davis from the
lineup (who is complaining of neck pain...) and replacing him with Sam Horn. 
I liked this move, but, unfortunately, Oates moved Ripken up to the 4-hole
in the lineup, where he can ground into 1-out double plays and pop up to short
more often each game...I thought that when Oates moved Ripken down to 5th, he'd
eventually be dropped to 6th or 7th if Cal didn't hit, but this has not 
happened.  
	I'm beginning to get VERY concerned about the O's chances this season.
Since the first month of the season, the O's have struggled mightily at home.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bruce 'Slower than Sam Horn' Hasch                    hasch@jhuvms.hcf.jhu.edu
Brad Pennington Fan Club                              O's all the way in '92??
------------------------------------------------------------------------------  
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: szs@world.std.com (Stephen Z Stein)
Subject: Re: <None>
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1992 21:12:54 GMT


I know I'm jumping into the middle of this Dr Dave - Brandon Cope thread,
but I've got some actual numbers to inject.
 
I'm still in thrall of these "Average Runs after Each Situation" tables
of Mark Pankin.  (The only ones I have are for the AL and NL in 1986
published in the GABSB 1988 edition.  Anyone know of more?)
 
I love it when I find a statement that I can test with them.  For instance:
In article <5733@blue.cis.pitt.edu.UUCP> genetic+@pitt.edu (Dr. Dave) writes:
>
>Trading an out for a run is, in the vast majority of instances, not 
>a winning strategy.  

Now I wonder, is this true or not?  Let's consider some situations in
light of the Runs Expected tables:
 
With none out and a runner on third, would you rather see a sac fly
(or run-scoring grounder or successful squeeze) or a walk?
 
Average Runs for:
    runner on third, no out:           1.39
    bases empty, one out, one scored:  1.27
    first and third, no out:           1.85
 
I'll take the walk, no contest.  Notice that the sac fly actually
*costs* the team a tenth of a run on average!
 
How about with one out?
    runner on third, one out:          0.98
    bases empty, two out, one scored:  1.10
    first and third, one out:          1.16
 
Here, it's much closer.  (Closer than Dr Dave expects, I bet!)
But the walk is still a little better.
 
With two out?  (Ooops, inning over!)
 
Here's the summary of the other runner on third situations:
                            before    after    after
                                     sac fly    walk
first and third, no out:     1.85  1.55 (1.72)  2.65
first and third, one out:    1.16  1.24 (1.32)  1.49
second and third, no out:    1.99  1.72 (1.98)  2.65
second and third, one out:   1.40  1.32 (1.39)  1.49
 
(Numbers in parentheses represent the runs expectations when the
"behind" runner advances also.)
 
Conclusion: Dave is indeed correct.  (On average.  When you are trying
to maximize the runs scored.  Offer not available in some states.)
 
I am surprised by how *bad* the sac fly is when there's none out. 
Not only is it not as good as a walk, it actually *costs* expected
runs.  With one out, though, it's not nearly that bad.  Sometimes
it's even close to as good as a walk.
 
(Numbers used are Average Runs Expected for the AL, 1986)
 
- Steve Stein

Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: savoy@hg.uleth.ca (Jim Savoy)
Subject: Re: who gets credit for win?
Reply-To: savoy@hg.uleth.ca
Organization: University of Lethbridge
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 21:08:11 GMT


In Phillip Godwin <cmpsg03@nt.com> writes:

>What is the rule(s) for determining which pitcher
>gets credit for a win?
>I've always assumed that it was the pitcher that was
>in the line-up when the go ahead run was scored - is
>this right?

Yup - provided the lead his team takes is unrelinquished. A starting pitcher
has to throw 5 full innings to get a win however, and if he doesn't make
it, and his team goes on to victory without ever having relinquished the
lead they took when he pitched his less-than-5 innings, the official scorer 
can award the win to the pitcher (other than the starter) he feels pitched the
best. This is a rarity.

I'm not too clear on all of baseball's many rules, but I'm pretty sure I've
covered all the bases as far as pitching wins go.

 _____________________________________________________________________________
     Jim Savoy          University Of Lethbridge         savoy@hg.uleth.ca

  Chris:   I'm really going to look after this ant, mum.
  Mother:  That's what you said about the sperm whale.
  Chris:   Well, you didn't feed it properly.
  Mother:  Where am I going to get 44 tons of plankton every day?!?
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: prb@chinet.chi.il.us (Paul Botts)
Subject: Re: Juan Gonzales (40+ homers before age 23)
Organization: Chinet - Public Access UNIX
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 21:50:33 GMT

In article <38005@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> demers@cs.ucsd.edu (David DeMers) writes:
>In article <9209120620.AA24310@bottom.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> cclaydon@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (C Robert Claydon) writes:
>
>>A UPI report listed the other players who have hit 40+ homers before turning 
>>23, and while there are some impressive players, I don't think any are in the 
>>top five of all-time home runs.  From memory, they are:
>
>>Eddie Matthews (twice), Joe Dimaggio, Johnny Bench and one other (sorry, I 
>>forget! :-)
>
>Mel Ott, who had some pretty amazing teenage seasons.
>
>>Anyway, while Matthews topped 500 HR, and Bench petered out largely because of 
>>the wear and tear of catching, I don't think you could say any of these guys 
>>were a serious threat to pass 700 (or even 600) HR lifetime...
>
>Depends on what you consider "serious threat".  Matthews certainly was; 
>he hit 25+ in each of his first 11 seasons, then petered out in his
>mid 30s.  Ott had a couple of great seasons early, but didn't
>have Aaron's consistency (at the same level, Ott was very consistent
>at hitting 30 HRs, just not 40...).
>

Dimaggio deserves some consideration here, even though he didn't even
total 400 for his career, because:
a) he missed three full seasons in his prime to WWII, and
b) of all players with at least 300 HRs, he had the highest percentage
of road homers, about 65% as I recall from the Bill James study on the
subject. He played when Yankee Stadium's Death Valley was really
outrageous, and he was evidently a pull hitter. He ended up with 387 HRs
lifetime anyway, so if he had played in a neutral park he would have
likely been up around 450-500, and if he had played in a favorable park
he would have cleared 500. Had he also not missed those three prime
seasons, he could have been a very serious threat for 600+.
That's a lot of "ifs", of course, but still....

Incidentally, of all the all-time HR leaders, Ott had the highest
percentage of home homers; he apparently had the perfect stroke for the
old Polo Grounds' 280-foot RF foul line.
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: franjion@spot.Colorado.EDU (John Franjione)
Subject: Re: Juan Gonzales (40+ homers before age 23)
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 18:10:20 GMT

In article <1992Sep13.144002.27435@cs.cornell.edu> tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer) writes:
>In article <5773@blue.cis.pitt.edu.UUCP> psg+@pitt.edu (Paul S Galvanek) writes:
>>
>>It seems that not long ago it was fairly common to see 17, 18 and 19 year
>>old kids playing at the major league level.  Now a days it's a rarity.
>>With guys like Yount starting their careers at 18 and playing 19 or more 
>>full seasons to reach their various career highs (hit, hrs sbs whatever)
>>is it realistic to expect the guys that come up today at 21, 22 or 23 years
>>of age to be able to approach the career numbers of the older players.

Hmmm.  Something one often hears announcers saying is that players
today spend too little time in the minors.  So, which is it, I wonder?

John Franjione
From: brock@NeXTwork.Rose-Hulman.Edu (Bradley W. Brock)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Fielder
Date: 11 Sep 92 23:04:35 GMT
Organization: Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology

Distribution: usa

In article <11SEP199214292038@jhuvms.hcf.jhu.edu> hasch@jhuvms.hcf.jhu.edu  
(Bruce M Hasch) writes:
> You'd have to be completely nuts to rather have Cecil over FT or McGwire.   
Even
> in a 50-HR Cecil year.

I'm completely nuts because I would rather have a '90 Cecil over a '91 McGwire.
--
Bradley W. Brock, Department of Mathematics
Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology  | "Honor one another above yourselves."
brock@nextwork.rose-hulman.edu       | -Paul of Tarsus to the Romans
From: zuhars@madrone.eecs.ucdavis.edu (Gary FDA Approved Huckabay)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Huge Rangers/Athletics trade
Date: 14 Sep 92 17:17:01 GMT
Organization: Ruben Sierra Hairdo Club (Puckett Division)

In article <1992Sep11.193844.6172@sco.COM> erics@sco.COM (eric smith) writes:
>But think of it, if the A's felt they couldn't
>afford both Canseco's $5.5 million/year plus paying McGwire a new contract,
>how are they going to afford $5 or $6 million/year for Sierra plus whatever
>McGwire will get? 

Canseco's deal is NOT 5.5 Million per year.  He signed a 5 year,
$23.5M deal, and I believe 2.5 million of that was a signing bonus, so
the average of his contract, per annum, is about $4.1M.  This year, he
is making $3.6 Million.  Next year, I believe that goes up to $3.9M.

DIRT cheap.

>It looks to me like this is a trade to try to win it all
>this season, then next year Sierra will be gone and the A's will start a
>"youth movement". 

Sierra is two years younger than Eric Fox.  The A's have no position
player prospects in the high minors.  Sierra would be a decent
addition to the club, but not as nice as Barry Bonds.

Anyone else notice that Sierra is walking?

>Don't be surprised to see Rickey Henderson traded about
>this time next year.

Don't be surprised if I forcibly shave Sandy Alderson's head with a
potato peeler as a response.  Rickey has a no-trade contract, and is a
solid base for an offense all be himself.  Troy Neel, even at an
advanced age, can be a fill in at first for a couple of years, a la
Paul Sorrento.
-- 
*    Gary Huckabay    * 'RBIs rank roughly below political affiliation *
*  'Watching Harold   *  and just above shoe size in terms of whether  *
*   Brooks stalk the  *  a guy can actually hit.  Hitting is more than *
*  Maxvill household.'*  just being lucky.' - T.S. Underwood.          *
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: rstimets@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (robert and stimets)
Subject: Personal Attacks on the Net
Organization: Indiana University
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 18:38:36 GMT

...Just got done reading some post by GH directed at someone else (I forget)
which I wanted to respond to but my computer fouled up.

Anyway, but participants in the discussion had reduced themselves to some 
rather vicious personal attacks (on such relevant issues as looks and sex
life) which is evidently INAPPROPRIATE ON THIS NET!!!

If you guys want to spend the day insulting each other then do it on
alt.argument.insult or some other fine group, but don't make everyone
else read your SHIT.

GH finishes by telling his combatant that he should "kill" Mr.Huckaby.

Maybe I should put both of these guys in my kill file (but why should
I have to?)

RStimets
From: TKN105@psuvm.psu.edu
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Jose DeLeon Stats Needed
Date: 10 Sep 92 18:55:07 GMT
Organization: Penn State University


         I heard during the Phillies game yesterday, that the Phillies signed J
ose DeLeon to a two year contract.  In the past, I know that he has been a dece
nt pitcher.  If anyone out there knows any of his stats, please send them to me
!
                                   Terry, a loyal Phillies fan
From: tex@r-node.gts.org (Terence Dulay)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: AL and NL differences
Date: 8 Sep 92 20:53:38 GMT
Organization: Association for the Preservation of Incompetence

In article <Bu8H9y.4xI@math.uwaterloo.ca> alopez-o@neumann.uwaterloo.ca (Alex Lopez-Ortiz) writes:
>
>
>I only know of one difference between the AL and the NL rule book:
>
>-Designated Hitter
>
>But I've been told that there are many others, so the question is:
>
>Which are the top 10 (or 20) differences between the rules of the
>American and the National League?
>
>
>
>Thanks in advance
>
>
>Alex
>
>
>
>-- 
>Alex Lopez-Ortiz                              alopez-o@maytag.UWaterloo.ca
>Deparment of Computer Science                       University of Waterloo
>Waterloo, Ontario                                                   Canada


At one time there were MANY differences between the leagues, the most noted 
ones being strike  zone (the AL umpires used to use the balloon chest protector
and therefore would call high strikes;
the NL umps, being the first to use the inside protector, got into a deeper
crouch and would call strikes at the knees.  Today they all use inside protector
and therefore we're seeing more low strikes and less high strikes in BOTH 
leagues... big example: Toronto vs K.C. on Labour Day -- a pitch to Carter
was clearly low but was called strike)
Of course there's the DH rule which you stated (if the DH becomes a defensive
player, the pitcher hits)...
Another involves managers/coaches/team-mates visiting the pitcher -- in the
AL, any number may meet at the mound for a team meeting (Tom Kelly of the
Twins does this often, I think... or is it Tony LaRussa?).  In the NL, only 
2 defensive players plus someone from the bench may visit the pitcher at any
one time (correct me if I'm wrong there).  Also, in both leagues a pitcher must
be removed from the game if he's visited by someone from the bench twice in
one inning.  The definition of a visit differs.  In the AL, a manager crossing
into and subsequently leaving fair territory (i.e. crossing the base line) 
constitutes one official visit.  In the NL, a manager entering and subsequently
leaving the pitching mound circle is
considered a visit.  I remember hearing mention of a game where (in the NL) a
manager went to the mound to discuss fatigue, etc as well as to give his
reliever more warmup time in the bullpen.  He apparently stepped off the
mound to hear something being called out by the coach on the bench, then 
returned to his pitcher.  At that moment, the umpire ordered that the pitcher
be removed and the reliever be sent in.  An argument occurred, but the ump was
right -- the manager had entered and left the mound twice in one inning.
In the AL, that manager would be correct.
-- 
Terence M. "Tex" Dulay
tex@eastern.com
tex@r-node.gts.org
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball