From: gazit@duke.cs.duke.edu (Hillel Gazit)
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
Subject: Re: Why Gordon Is a Feminist
Date: 15 Oct 92 23:38:51 GMT
Reply-To: gazit@cs.duke.edu (Hillel)
Organization: Nefolet shel nemushot (Fallout of Wimps)

#Another problem is that Gordon ignores that fact that all those
#feminine" good qualities need a non-feminine someone to do the
#dirty jobs of maintaining the environment which is needed around them.
#If men will stop to provide the environment, the system will break
#apart.  As a result, it is a feminist interest to keep men in their
#place - over-worked, dying young, losing custody but pay $$$$
#as child support and alimony.

#If too many men will have the option of taking the "feminine" path 
#then not enough people will keep the system running, 
#and it will break apart.

In article <1992Oct15.150909.1167@midway.uchicago.edu> 
mec6@midway.uchicago.edu writes:

>I can't speak for Gordon (and I don't really want to), 

Gordon reminds me an old Russian joke.  It is about a secret plans 
of the Communist Party Central Committee (or what ever was the name...) 
to take over all the world but Canada!  

Why don't they want to take over Canada?  

Well, we will have to have some source of food...

The point in the joke is that the USSR communism was quite a failure in
growing food, and therefore it needed some capitalists to grow it.

Gordon believes that every woman should have the fundamental right to
have as many kids as she wants.  He argued against choice for men 
because someone has to pay for the stupidity of a woman who has too
many kids.  After he lost the debate he moved to "some else" should
pay for those kids, and gave us many possibilities to choose from.

For his perfect world of "feminine" people who can do all their good
things without caring "who will pay for that?" he needs all those
"masculine" people who will run the world on a regular basis.  That's
why he does not try to create his own commune - he knows that the
"masculine" people will run away.  His solution is to force other people
to pay for the "feminine" people's stupidity.  If they will refuse to 
pay then the state power should be used - either for a crack down on
deadbeat dads or for heavy taxing.  He tops all of that with calls for
non violence - he does not want anybody to shoot his tax collectors... 

>but the way it
>has worked out with my spouse and I is that I will be the main
>wage earner, and he will be the primary parent.  For us, it was
>feminism that helped us see that that decision made the most sense
>for us.  My husband is thrilled that he will be able to pursue what 
>he would *really* find meaning in: the raising of our children.  
>I am thrilled that I will be able to do the career thing without
>giving up kids.  

I am glad that it works for you, but I can't see what it has to do
with feminism.  It seems to me that it has to do with people who can
decide what they want, and get into agreement by negotiations.  

It is a trade of "give me X and take Y" and not "I deserve X because I
am so good and/or just and/or right gender and/or right race and/or 
improves everybody life quality because I have such Politically Correct
opinions, etc., and if you will not give me then I'll use the state
power to take what I deserve."

>For us, feminism allowed us to make those 
>decisions without feeling like we were somehow "failures" at our
>[pre-assigned] roles.

Why the hell should you, or anybody else, let society dictate your feelings?!

One of the group of people I belong to was once described as
"Nefolet shel nemushot (Fallout of Wimps)."  Instead of apologizing to 
everybody around, and explaining why I'm OK, I took it as the organization
field in my articles; it seems to me like the appropriate response...

>rini

Hillel                                          gazit@cs.duke.edu

"Legal" doesn't necessarily mean "good" -- or "right" -- or "reasonable".
Do you really just base your actions on what is and isn't _legal_?  Do you
really just hand over all your decision-making power to the government?
                                       -- Diane Holt