HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: cei308@cck.coventry.ac.uk (Jet Girl)
Subject: Re: The WORST novel ever written?  (OVERRATED?)
Organization: Coventry University
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 17:59:51 GMT

In article <1993Jan18.012721.26191@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu> pml3@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (Paul Michael Lewis) writes:
>It's hard to say what I think the worst novel ever written was, especially
>since there is so much garbage out there.
>
>How about the most OVERRATED novel?
>
>I nominate:
>
>  Great Expectations by Dickens
>
  Oh no.....I found David Copperfield to be much less entertaining and
  highly over-rated.  Dickens himself said that this was his favourite
  character ( I think - no doubt there will be thousands of e-mails
  if I'm wrong) and that out of all his books he was most proud of DC.

  My personal vote for most over rated novel must go to Wuthering Heights.
  I appreciate that the relationship between Kathy and Heathcliffe is very
  deep and intense, and I did like the descriptions of the moors and so on
  but found the book very tedious and uninteresting.  Another thing which 
  annoyed me about it was Bronte's technique of putting strong Yorkshire
  dialogue into phonetics.  I come originally from Bradford in Yorkshire
  (only about 10 miles from Haworth) and it took me a while to work out
  what was meant to be said.  Muriel Spark writes in her auto-biography
  that she has always tried not to used phonetics to enhance colloquialisms
  as she doesnt like the useage of it and I must say I agree with her.

  love and more coughs (but no sneezes now)

  Julie
-- 
******************************************************************************
*            JOOLZ THE JET GIRL      cei308@uk.ac.coventry.cck               * 
*  "Just when I think I'm winning, when I've opened every door...the ghosts  *
************** of my life blow wilder than before" - Japan *******************  
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: chucks@uars2.acd.ucar.edu (Chuck Smythe)
Subject: Re: Biggest Disappointments and Surprises
Organization: Ntl Center for Atmospheric Research, Atmospheric Chemistry
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 17:07:18 GMT

In article <1993Jan21.020419.13488@netcom.com> dani@netcom.com (Dani Zweig) writes:

 >>_Dicey's Song_ by Cynthia Voigt.  A teacher friend of mine recommended it;
 >>I was apprehensive.  It's a "young person's" book, so I suspected it would
 >>be typical of the genre -- simplistic, stereotypical, mamby-pamby.  Boy, was I
 >>amazed.  They didn't write stuff like this when *I* was a kid. 
 
 >Two sequels ("Sons from Afar" and "Seventeen Against the Dealer"),
 >two parallel novels focusing on other characters ("A Solitary Blue"
 >and "Come a Stranger") and two prequels ("The Runner" and "Homecoming",
 >though "Homecoming" was written before "Dicey's Song" and shouldn't 
 >really be called that).  All good reading, though none of them in the
 >same class as Dicey's Song.

Another vote for these.  Recommended by my wife, a middle school English
teacher.  Good stories, and with character development at a level I hadn't
seen before in kiddie lit.  Thanks for the "shared world" list; I missed
a couple of them.

			Chuck Smythe
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: mtaranto@panix.com (Mark Taranto)
Subject: Re: Remedial Math
Organization: The Inner Clique
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 04:29:22 GMT


zeleny@husc10.harvard.edu (Mikhail Zeleny) writes:

> The New York Times informs me that *all* graduates of a certain
> liberal arts college are expected to have received instruction in two
> languages, ancient and modern, and to have read, among other things,
> Dedekind's classic essay on the nature of numbers.  I like that.

St. John's in Annapolis -- the school that reads the Great Books
(you know -- dead white guys).

Mark




Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: akiy@siva.cs.titech.ac.jp (Akiyama Jun)
Subject: Re: Book-title modesty
Organization: Tokyo Institute of Tech., Dept. of Computer Science, Japan
	<sph0301.160.727977722@utsph.sph.uth.tmc.edu>
	<1k17r1$71i@agate.berkeley.edu>
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 06:49:46 GMT

(Amy Mossman) writes:

> As I'm reading my latest classic or piece of schlock on the subway
> in the morning, I occasionally look around to see what other people
> are doing/reading.  Lots are poeple in suits and trenchcoats with
> briefcases reading the paper. (I live in dreaded suburbia). 

It's strange, how over here in Japan, the cashier at bookstores will
always inevitably ask you if you want a non-descript brown cover on
your book.  (Actually, they only ask you if you want a cover, but they
really are non-descript and brown.  (The covers.  Not the cashiers.))
So, on the trains and subways, everyone seems to be reading
non-descript, brown books, although looking nosily over their
shoulders will reveal some of these books to be comic books.

I always decline these covers, since I'm one of those people
(heathens?) who take off book covers to read, since they get all
scrunched up in my backpack if I don't.  

--
           akiy@cs.titech.ac.jp|Amiga/Mac/IBM/NeXT/NEC (ugh)/Unix-box User   
UCLA undergrad, studying abroad|"False ideas may be refuted indeed by argument,
  Tokyo Institute of Technology| but by true ideas alone are they expelled."
    Natural Language Processing| ---John Henry Newman, _Apologia Pro Vita Sua_
From: rsquires@cyclops.eece.unm.edu (Roger Squires)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: More sf babble
Date: 26 Jan 1993 01:51:43 GMT
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque
NNTP-Posting-Host: cyclops.eece.unm.edu

In article <1993Jan25.173415.17994@wam.umd.edu> sheilah@wam.umd.edu (Danny-Boy) writes:
>
>I would like to see some suggestions for science fiction with original
>ideas presented in a talented fashion. 
>

	I've said it a dozen times, I'll say it a thousand --
	read _Rogue Moon_

>stark raving sane  sheilah@wam.umd.edu

rms
From: dianem@boi.hp.com (Diane Mathews)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Vanity Fair, or the long sojourn
Date: 27 Jan 93 21:15:45 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard / Boise, Idaho

How 'bout Atlas Shrugged.  There's only so much preaching from Ayne Rand (a la
John Galt) that i could bear - don't know how anyone could miss the point in
that book!
From: S.Courtenage@cs.ucl.ac.uk (SA Courtenage)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Publisher for Sunetra Gupta's Memories of Rain?
Date: 21 Jan 93 15:47:42 GMT


Dear All,

I would like to find out who published "Memories of Rain" by Sunetra
Gupta in the US. Does anyone know and have the address of the publisher?

Also, her second book is due to come out in the UK in February. Is it
already available in the US? If so, what were the reviews like?

Thank you

Simon

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Simon Courtenage			     Email: scourten@uk.ac.ucl.cs
Dept of Computer Science, University College London, London WC1E, England
From: crawford@ben.dev.upenn.edu (Lauren L. Crawford)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: "The Crying Game" (SPOILER WARNING) (Was Re: Heather's Ford)
Date: 21 Jan 93 19:00:07 GMT
Organization: University of Pennsylvania

In article <1993Jan21.172855.1359@eff.org> mnemonic@eff.org (Mike Godwin) writes:

**SPOILER**

**SPOILER**

**DON'T READ ON IF YOU PLAN TO SEE THE MOVIE**

**SPOILER**





OK.



>"The Crying Game" stands as evidence of Paglia's thesis about the power of
>the androgyne. When you read SEXUAL PERSONAE, Michael, you'll find this
>out.


I'm talking through my hat here, because I haven't read the book in
question.  But I didn't see anything terribly powerful about the character
you're referring to.  On the contrary, I saw someone needy, hurt, human,
and rather pathetic.  Fergus did what he did because of his innate nature
(the fable about the scorpion doing what he had to do because it was in
his nature), not because of some power exerted by Dell (name spelling?). 
Dell was loveable in his own way, but I found the character memorable
primarily for the sadness he brought me.  I could most certainly be wrong,
but I don't think that's what Paglia had in mind.



-- 
The trick of reason is to get the imagination to seize the actual world --
if only from time to time.     -- Annie Dillard, "An American Childhood"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lauren Crawford  //  crawford@ben.dev.upenn.edu
From: br105@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Jeffrey A. Del Col)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Censorship in the USA
Date: 26 Jan 1993 13:57:17 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: br105@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Jeffrey A. Del Col)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


The recent thread on censorship in the USA is based on the paranoid
assumption that there is a conspiratorial form of government in this
country and what seems to be a nearly perfect ignorance of this country's
legal system.  If you think that the US as a whole is in a straitjacket of 
covert official censorship, you are sadly misinformed, as a visit to the 
bookstores in large cities or near universitys would demonstrate.


  It was especially ironic in that a number of the participants
live in the land of the Official Secrets Act,  where it is
still possible to be prosecuted for heresy by word.

 I have seen copies of SHOW ME for sale in the US. Marchetti's troubles with
his book stem from his having signed the standard CIA employee's 
agreement to allow the agency to read and censor his work. I wouldn't think it
necessary to remind the indignant complainers from the UK of Nigel West's
troubles in publishing his books about British intelligence services or the 
disgraceful butchery done to an issue of GRANTA that contained
the memoirs of a British spy.
 
I don't believe that material has yet been published, but I own several copies
 of the "banned" articles from the Progressive about the design of H-Bombs.

At least in the USA, our freedom of the press is explicitly stated in
the Constitution, and despite assertions to the contrary has been held to
be nearly absolute.  Efforts at prior censorship have been very few and have
generally failed; Nixon's efforts to stop the Pentagon Papers being a case in
point.

J. Del Col


-- 
Jeff Del Col      *   DECONSTRUCTION--- the critical method invented      
A-B College       *                      by Procrustes  
Philippi, WV      *                             
                  *         
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: harper@oracorp.com (Douglas Harper)
Subject: Re: Fan Fiction--Copyright Infringement? (LONG)
Organization: ORA Corporation, Ithaca, New York
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 23:47:35 GMT

In article <C161oI.sx@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk> jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin) writes:

>I've read "Pigs is Pigs"...Who wrote it?

Ellis Parker Butler. 

-- 
Douglas Harper | harper@oracorp.com | +1 (607) 277-2020
Xref: sparky rec.arts.books:26222 alt.usage.english:11012
From: francis@oas.stanford.edu (Francis Muir)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: that/which/who
Date: 25 Jan 1993 14:29:06 GMT
Organization: Stanford Exploration Project
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: oas.stanford.edu

Chris Cannam writes:

	Francis Muir writes:

   		A nice example. In England, the choice is part of a 
		litmus test. "Our Father, Which art" is Church of 
		England while "Our father, Who art" is Roman Catholic. 

	I'm C of E, and I say "Our Father, Who art".

Then things have changed. Cantuar cozying up to the Bishop of Rome I
expect. Returning to the Grahame Greene thing (you can't have enough
"e"s in GG), what I hear in the title "The Power & the Glory" is
precisely that the protagonist had come to believe that His Father,
that is, God, did not have the Power & the Glory. Interesting to compare
P&G and Brideshead for fearful attitudes to The Church. Which reminds
me, a RABber in England has pointed out that my old school, Stonyhurst,
has just been written up in a book. *Stonyhurst: 1593--1993* Reviewed
in the current TIMES LIT SUP. Anyone read it? I may not get a mention...

							RABworm

						RABworm
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: al@iris.claremont.edu (hold on to the rail)
Subject: Re: Ancient History Novels
Organization: Harvey Mudd College, Claremont, CA 91711
Distribution: usa
Date: 22 Jan 93 22:00:19 GMT

For a humorous and twisted take on "historical novels", try John Barth.
_Chimera_, _The Last Voyage Of Somebody The Sailor_, and some of the
stories in _Lost In The Funhouse_ are great places to start.  For more
recent "history", namely late 17th century colonial, try _The Sot Weed
Factor_, which is one of my favoritest.  He has his detractors, but I
think he is a fine, almost unequalled, storyteller.
-- 
Michael L. Medlin	al@iris.claremont.edu
"I know why
 Fish swim in the sky
 Beat their leather wings
From: dprezios@ep.ieee.org (D Preziosi)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Book-title modesty
Date: 26 Jan 93 16:49:01 GMT
Reply-To: dprezios@ep.ieee.org
Organization: IEEE, New York, NY

A. Mossman writes:
`But, I began
to think more on this, should I think in some literay snobish way, "Oh, Isn't
it horrible that these people can't find something decent to read?". Or, is it
just a major breakthrough that people are reading at all? Reading is becoming
so frighteningly non-exsistent, and adult illiteracy is on the rise.'

My wife and I have been discussing this same topic since seeing 
herds of suit-wearers on the subway last summer all reading _The 
Firm_. We sort of came to the conclusion, "Well, at least it's not
the Wall St. Journal." Obviously, many suit wearers are not illiterate--
it's just nice to see people reading books, whether Danielle and  Stephen,
or Ernest and F. Scott.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: uroessl1@gwdu03.gwdg.de (Uwe Roessler)
Subject: Re: seeking recommendations for books in German
Organization: GWDG, Goettingen
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 16:56:54 GMT

oliver@madrone.CS.Berkeley.EDU (Oliver Sharp) writes:

>There has been some discussion lately about improving your German by
>reading some fun and easy books in it.  I speak German pretty fluently,
>but my reading comprehension needs some work.  My mother's side of the
>family lives there, and doesn't speak English, so I've had plenty of
>opportunities to work on my conversational skills; I'd like to do some
>reading to round things out more.  I have read a variety of German books 
>in the past, ranging from children's mystery novels (borrowed from my 
>cousin when I was visiting as a twelve year old) to some rather painful 
>bouts with Kleist and Goethe.  Oh and I've dabbled in a little of Rilke's 
>lovely poetry, too.

>I'd like to read some more, but it would be nice to find something in
>between these two extremes.

In between Kleist AND :-) Goethe and children's books you'll find Heine.
May be you'll like 'Die Harzreise'. In some countries he's even estimated
as poet.

>                     Can anybody recommend some good novels or
>mysteries?  I'd prefer somebody whose writing style was more Kafkaesque
>(the E.B. White of German literature :-) as opposed to, say, Kleist.  

Leo Perutz may fit in here. He is of the same origin as Kafka: the
jewish-german society in Prague around 1900. He wrote 
phantastical novels, which were rather successful in the 1920s,
some of them were first published in newspapers. So his language
is rather simple (though there are a few austrian idiotisms in there,
you'll easily find out), and the novels are not too long. This is 
not a fault but mere concentration and narrative economy and
his plots are very refined some of them would have pleased 
J.L.Borges: actually he worked very long time as mathematician.
The best novels I remember: 'Turlupin', a remake of the story of
the Marechal de Bassompierre (could be a backstair to Goethe),
'Der Meister des Juengsten Tages', 'St.Petri-Schnee', a fine
study in mass-hysteria which may be read as a metaphorical
description of Germany in the early 30s, 'Wohin rollst du,Aepfelchen?',
'Der Schwedische Reiter' and the late masterpiece:
'Nachts unter der steinernen Bruecke' the scene is the jewish ghetto
of Prague and the Hradshin in the times of RudolfII.
All of them are easily available as paperbacks (Rowohlt Taschenbuecher).
If you like this kind of books a good one is still Gustav Meyrink:
'Der Golem'. There remains one nagging question: Is Kafka Kafkaesque?
I suppose: no. 

>[...]

>Thanks much,
>- Oliver

u.roessler                  uroessl1@dgogwd1.bitnet
                            uroessl1@gwdu03.gwdg.de

"Einer unsrer Voreltern muss in einem verbotenen Buch gelesen haben." 
Lichtenberg
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: mtaranto@panix.com (Mark Taranto)
Subject: Re: Heather's Marilyn
Organization: The Inner Clique
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 18:11:29 GMT


adolphso@mizar.usc.edu (adolphson) writes:

> s1mbm@isuvax.iastate.edu writes:

>> It's true that I could
>> stand to learn *a lot* more, and would appreciate recommendations from
>> you and others on works that would help me broaden my knowledge of film.

> Works that would help you broaden your knowledge of film?
> Is there a reason why you'd prefer that to actually *watching*
> lots and lots of movies and making up your own mind?

Let me get this straight, Arne.  We have a discussion here which has
been about films and acting.  Someone *finally* asks a question which
might involve books (you know -- as in rec.arts.books <this was before
Heather brought up Lindsay Anderson with his "one film-one interpretation"
theory)) -- and you give him a hard time for it?

A little cheeky, isn't it?

Mark

From: dfrey@hpcc01.corp.hp.com (Dave Frey)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 02:12:53 GMT
Subject: Re: Journal of books you've read?
Organization: the HP Corporate notes server
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books

I've recently started a separate journal for comments on books and other
readings; occasionally, I slip in a movie review, too.  My original intent
was to work on my writing (my general journal is indifferent to punctuation,
etc), to come away from my reading with a stronger understanding of what I
had just read, and to keep some kind of record.  I think it makes me read
differently, too, wondering along the way what I will say about this book.

This journal is a small one, from Italy, with an elastic place-keeper and
an etching of a wheat blossom(?) on the craft paper cover.  I do have a
dedicated pen--a Parker fountain (too expensive for my tastes, but it's a
gift from my employer for 5 years service, quite a stay in the software
industry).  It's filled with a beautiful reddish-orange ink, a gift (along
with the journal) from my SO.  A computer would be faster and more convenient,
but writing is a pleasant break from the keyboard, and captures more
information.

As for format, I keep the date completed, title, author, publisher and date,
pages, and the reason that particular work sifted to the top of a large pile
of beloved, but neglected books (like "so-and-so's favorite book").  The
comments vary from a paragraph to half a dozen pages, and I try to balance
review comments with what might be called "indefensible, gut-level reactions";
with these last, I think I'm after what you call the "marinade" effect.

I think I'd feel comfortable letting anyone who WOULD read a journal about 
books read mine.  I am more shy about my general journal, allowing my SO to
read it, although I don't think she does.

I liked your posting;  If you get much email feedback (mine to kalia@Ingres.COM
bounced, btw), it might make an interesting post.  Any really unusual comments?

Dave Frey
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,talk.politics.soviet
From: jmc@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (John McCarthy)
Subject: Re: Robert Conquest's _The Great Terror_
Reply-To: jmc@cs.Stanford.EDU
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University
	<1993Jan26.113447.19810@husc3.harvard.edu>
	<JMC.93Jan26205910@SAIL.Stanford.EDU>
	<1993Jan27.150439.19865@husc3.harvard.edu>
Date: 27 Jan 93 16:39:28

I take an action to be vindicated by something if the something makes
it completely ok.  "aggravated" and "extenuated" are the opposites.
When a crime is committed and extenuating circumstances are found
the sentence is less than it would otherwise be, but the person
need not be unpunished.  When there are aggravating circumstances,
the punishment is greater than standard.
--
John McCarthy, Computer Science Department, Stanford, CA 94305
*
He who refuses to do arithmetic is doomed to talk nonsense.
From: spb0457@rigel.tamu.edu (SubGenius)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: New ideas on SF -or- Confessions of an pulp reader
Date: 23 Jan 1993 08:53 CST
Organization: Texas A&M University, Academic Computing Services
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: rigel.tamu.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    

>[SubG asserts we had an argument which, in fact, never occured between us.]
>   SubG,
>  
>     it is now clear that it makes little difference if you are really
>utterly confused or just pretend you are.
> - Debil

+---------------------------------------SubG---------------------------------+
Ah.  So now you're going to abandon all attempts to fritter with logic,
rhetoric, or for that matter anything whatever to do with the topic allegedly
under discussion.

I appreciate your capitulation.









-SubGenius



Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: daq@fc.hp.com (Doug Quarnstrom)
Subject: Re: Why I signed off this list
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 22:35:11 GMT
Organization: SPUGE
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1.8 PL6]

sabina (swolfson@nyx.cs.du.edu) wrote:
: In article <C17yLu.Er@fc.hp.com> daq@fc.hp.com (Doug Quarnstrom) writes:
: 
: >I think my mileage may vary.  I think that most meaningful criticism is,
: >by its very nature, somewhat rude to the person on the receiving end.
: 
: I don't understand this.  Why can't meaningful criticism be polite?

The person offering it can be polite, but I maintain that if
the criticism is meaninful and on the mark it is "rude" to
the receiver.  

The word I want is possibly not "rude", as I would prefer to focus on
the jarring or shocking or disconcerting nature of the experience
rather than to suggest barbarism or boorishness on the part of the
critic.  What I am suggesting is that meaninful criticism 
probably always feels like a bit of a knife in the heart of
the person on the receiving end.  If it is not like this, then it
is not criticism, it is friendly debate.

For example:  If someone says, "Don't you think you can do better?",
they are not criticizing, they are asking you to engage in a debate
about self-discovery.

If someone says, "You are not doing this very well.  You can do
better, and it is your duty to try", then you are being criticized,
and I assert that it is the reare individual who can take the latter
without thinking the critic has been *somewha*t rude.

: I see that it might be "hard to swallow" or something, but I don't
: see why most must be (somewhat) rude.  

The "hard to swallow" aspect is what I meant to suggest.

:Then again, maybe I am just
: misinterpreting what you mean by "somewhat rude".  Can you give an
: example of a recent thread inwhich you think the participants were
: "somewhat rude"?

I would prefer not too, as it would be somewhat rude.

doug
From: newburgheath@bvc.edu
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: THE AWAKENING--criticism B4 1960, 1930?
Date: 20 Jan 93 15:28:24 CST
Organization: Buena Vista College, Storm Lake, IA

Hello again!

I need criticisms on Kate Chopin's THE AWAKENING written before 1960 and, 
even better, before 1930.  I have looked at some bibliographies similar to 
the MLA International Bibliography, but no such luck with the exception of 
one.  Our library does have MLA but only back to 1968.  Are there any 
listings before then on THE AWAKENING?  Let me know!
Thanks-
Heather