From: eharbin@convex.com (Edward Harbin)
Subject: Re: Will the -REAL- Christians please stand up? Was: What did Judas betray?
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1992 20:00:40 GMT
Organization: Engineering, CONVEX Computer Corp., Richardson, Tx., USA
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
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In <1992Dec28.192307.14583@walter.bellcore.com> kenl@origami.NoSubdomain.NoDomain (Ken Lehner) writes:

>In article <eharbin.725547983@convex.convex.com>, eharbin@convex.com (Edward Harbin) writes:
>|> 
>|> On the other hand, in what non-Christian country would you choose to live?

>I'd prefer the non-Christian United States, thank you.

>|> It was in Christian societies that both modern science and 

>Have you heard of Arabic numbers?  Where exactly did geometry originate?

There were of course interesting approaches to the sciences in Arab countries,
classical Greece, India, and China. But the critical combination of
mathematics and observation that we think of as modern science came to life
in the cathedral schools of Paris, Bologna, and Cambridge. 

>|> liberal democracy evolved. This was not accidental.

>Are you saying that it was the Christianity of the society that somehow
>enabled the evolution of modern science?  Certainly Galileo would have
>some concern with this belief.  How is it that the Christian aspect(s) of

Galileo was deeply Christian and would have no trouble with it at all,
which is not to say he had no problems with the religious establishment
of his day.

>society contribute to science?  Especially things that tend to throw doubt
>on religious teaching (e.g., evolution, cosmology, dendrochronology).

Most Christians have trouble with none of the above. What Christianity
had to contribute was a metaphysics which accepted simultaneously immanence
and transcendence: nature was a created good in which truths may be found
which reflect a transcendent order. And some other wrinkles. But put the
shoe on the other foot, - why _did_ Newton, Copernicus, Galileo, [long
list follows] come from a Christian environment, if that environment were
not in some way friendly to their development?

>|> wherever you find human suffering, Christians are in the forefront with aid
>|> aid and comfort. The Christian ethos has much of which to be proud.

>So does the Jewish ethos, and the majority of religions.  It's the actions

I have the highest regard for the cultural and ethical attainments of
other religions.

>in the name of those religions that some have trouble with.  I personally
>have trouble with religions whose teachings allow people to dictate to
>others how to run their lives.

Likewise, if by dictation you mean police action. Though I repeat, religious
societies don't have a monopoly on the misuse of force in pursuit of
social solidarity.

>|> 
>|> We also have much of which to be humble.
>|> 
>|> That the New Jerusalem has not arrived and that Christians are sinners is
>|> tragic. We deserve to have our feet held to the fire for our divisions,
>|> our hypocrisies, our failures. That being said, I note that you actually
>|> call on us not to be less Christian but more Christian (and you, as I, know

>"Christian is as Christian does"?

It's a start.