HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jchokey@leland.Stanford.EDU (James Alexander Chokey)
Subject: Re: New Story: Mushroom Thief
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 93 18:22:10 GMT

In article <C09Ds1.J2v@umassd.edu> s13989bc@UMASSD.EDU writes:
>	In my personal opinion the mushroom thief story belongs in
>alt.sex.stories or other such stomping grounds for ths kind of garbled filth.
>Tolkien didn't create a world of bestialist and perverted hobbits.
>Please excuse the very biased and tempermental form of this posting,
>but Maggot was not a creep, and Tolkien's stories deserve more respect
>than that which was given. Please don't demean him, his tales, the other
>readers, or yourself with this insidious attack on a morally uplifting
>chronicle.

	This was a work of fan-fiction based on a character created by 
Tolkien and it is certainly appropriate in a Tolkien fan newsgroup--  at
least until such a time as we create a seperate alt.tolkien.fanfic.  Just
because you found the story not to your taste does not give you the right
to say that it is not appropriate here.  The story was not to my taste
either, I'm certainly not trying to pretend it's not an appropriate posting
for a group devoted to Tolkien fandom.  Please don't demean _us_ by setting
yourself up as the Tribunal of Newsgroup Purity and declaring that certain
types of postings do not belong here simply because you don't like them.

	--  Jim C. <jchokey@leland.stanford.edu>
From: chrisley@oxford.ac.uk (Ronald L Chrisley)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Bombadil etc.
Date: 4 Jan 93 15:27:00 GMT
	<4134@randvax.rand.org>
Organization: School of Cognitive & Computing Sciences, Univ. of Sussex


Why do people feel the need to fit Bombadil into a category (Maia,
Vala) when there is no direct evidence supporting any such kinship?  I
believe he is sui generis.  At least in Tolkien's original conception
in LOTR, he was thought to be the same kind of creature as Farmer
Maggot (when Maggot was not conceived to be a hobbit).

I guess people don't like classes that have only one member.




--
Ronald L. Chrisley  ronc@cogs.susx.ac.uk
COGS, University of Sussex
Falmer, Brighton, BN1 9QH, UK
From: damiens@cco.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Breeding Dragons (was Re: Bombadil)
Date: 7 Jan 1993 23:29:02 GMT
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
NNTP-Posting-Host: punisher.caltech.edu

In article <1993Jan6.212635@IASTATE.EDU> cffitzge@IASTATE.EDU (Charles F Fitzgerald) writes:
>>created individually by Melkor with his own essence.  But dragons 
>>most definitely did breed!
>
>I can not recall _any_ evidence that either trolls or dragons breed
>

	I cannot say for certain, not having any of the books with me at
CIT, but I think I remember reading that most of the dragons had been killed
in the War of Wrath when the Vanyar kicked the butt out of them and
Ancalagon's corpse smote Angband.  And more to the point, that the survivors
fled to the Grey Mountains and many years later having increased in numbers
began harrassing the dwarves there, until it became impossible to live there.
(These two things are probably separate, if actually present.)  Could 
someone with access to the books help me out here please?

>Charles F. Fitzgerald | '....Life's but a walking shadow,
>Iowa State University | a poor player, that struts, and frets
>cffitzge@iastate.edu  | his hour upon the stage,

			-- Damien R. Sullivan  [X-) Kiljoy]
42 | AIXELSYD | Phoenix (Brand shall return to Amber!) | Neo-anarchy now!
Just because it's been done before doesn't mean it's right. | "Nee!"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: erikt@sci.kun.nl (Erik van de Tier)
Subject: Re: shape of Ea before end of second era ?
Organization: University of Nijmegen, The Netherlands
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 08:47:58 GMT

Steven A. McCluney writes,
>I'm not positive about this, but didn't Iluvatar show a "finished product"
>to the Ainur?  i.e. perhaps the vision of Ea was of post-Numenorean
>times....

The vision Iluvatar showed, was one of Ea developing in it's history
(It must be said that Iluvatar told the Ainur that in every age unpredictable
things would happen that didn't come forth from history), it also showed 
the awakening of the elves and mankind, so the vision of Ea wasn't of post-
Numenorean times.

_____________________________________________________________________________
Erik van der Tier (erikt@sci.kun.nl)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: mcconnel@mcs.kent.edu (Mike McConnell)
Subject: Re: A question
Organization: Kent State University
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 16:08:25 GMT

In article <1993Jan5.130810.27764@odin.diku.dk>, klaus@diku.dk (Klaus Ole Kristiansen) writes:
|> ses2@po.CWRU.Edu (S. E. Stansfield) writes:
|> 
|> 
|> >On a local news group we got into a long discussion about who is able to 
|> >"see" a ringwraith.  It states in TLOTR that Tom Bombadil sees Frodo when
|> >he puts the ring on.  It is also clear the ringwraths can see Frodo during
|> >the attack under weathertop.  The question is, who else can see him when he
|> >wears the ring.  I believe that Gandalf could (since he is wearing one of
|> >the three).  Based on this I deduced that G. could see Bilbo when he sneaks
|> >up on the dwarves after escaping with the ring from the Orcs.  (He even
|> >says something like "there is more to this thief than is apparent".)
|> 
|> >Who else could see him?  Does the fact that G. is of the Maiar make a
|> >difference?  
|> 
|> Yes, IMHO
|> 
|> >i.e. could Saruman have seen him?  Could the Balrog have seen
|> >him?
|> 
|> Yes and yes.
|> 
|> In book II chapter 1, Gandalf explains that an elf who has seen
|> the two trees lives both in the seen and the unseen world, and
|> has power over both worlds. This would apply even more to a Maia,
|> I should think. BTW, it would also mean that Glorfindel could see
|> both Frodo and the ringwraiths.
|> 
|> >Why was Frodo singled out in the attack in Moria?
|> 
|> Now that is a harder question. Why would first the watcher
|> in the water and then an orc single out Frodo? Ideas anyone?
|> 
|> Klaus O K

 Perhaps this is the action of the ring itself.  Gandalf tells us that the ring
 betrayed Isildur by slipping from his finger, and likewise that it left Gollum
 so it could return to its master.  We also know that the ring affected Boromir,
 even though he wasn't wearing it.  My conjecture is that the ring is drawing 
 these evil creatures to Frodo as a means of getting away from his and back to 
 Sauron.

 Mike McConnell
 Dept of Mathematics
 Kent State University
 
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: nancy@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Nancy Lebovitz)
Subject: Re: A question
Organization: UDel, School of Life & Health Sciences
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 01:43:09 GMT

In article <1993Jan5.160825.25705@mcs.kent.edu> mcconnel@mcs.kent.edu (Mike McConnell) writes:
>In article <1993Jan5.130810.27764@odin.diku.dk>, klaus@diku.dk (Klaus Ole Kristiansen) writes:
>|> ses2@po.CWRU.Edu (S. E. Stansfield) writes:
>|> 

[.....]

>|> >Why was Frodo singled out in the attack in Moria?
>|> 
>|> Now that is a harder question. Why would first the watcher
>|> in the water and then an orc single out Frodo? Ideas anyone?
>|> 
>|> Klaus O K
>
> Perhaps this is the action of the ring itself.  Gandalf tells us that the ring
> betrayed Isildur by slipping from his finger, and likewise that it left Gollum
> so it could return to its master.  We also know that the ring affected Boromir,
> even though he wasn't wearing it.  My conjecture is that the ring is drawing 
> these evil creatures to Frodo as a means of getting away from his and back to 
> Sauron.

This is just a hypothesis, but maybe the watcher in the water could "smell"
the ring and was attracted to it?

>
> Mike McConnell
> Dept of Mathematics
> Kent State University
>
From: ctkosti@afterlife.ncsc.mil (Chris Kostick)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Hobbits (was Re: Bombadil)
Date: 8 Jan 93 20:04:32 GMT
Organization: The Great Beyond

In article <1993Jan8.012527.2074@netcom.com> solovay@netcom.com (Andrew Solovay) writes:
>In article <1iieljINNk90@gap.caltech.edu> damiens@cco.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) writes:
>>In article <1993Jan6.214044@IASTATE.EDU> cffitzge@IASTATE.EDU (Charles F Fitzgerald) writes:
>>>Is there any evidence to prove the assertion that they were
>>>"human-relations," and if so, where does it appear?
>>>
>>	_The_Hobbit_? In the beginning when discussing their being close to
>>men than dwarves or even elves (or were the latter two reversed?)
>>Admittedly the_Hobbit_ isn't entirely canonical perhaps...speaking of which,
>>remember the giants in the Misty Mountains?  More random creations of
>>Morgoth or just an oddity of that novel?
>
>Added complication: Gandalf muses about getting some "more-or-less
>decent giant" to block up the entrances to the Goblins's caves. If
>there are "decent giants", then they are probably not creations of
>Morgoth's; they're probably more bombadils (i.e. inexplicables).

Well if there can be "black hearted dwarves" (from the Hobbit) that struck
up relations with goblins, then I guess there can be some `good' giants.

BTW Tolkien seems to make a small distinction between goblins and orcs.
I always thought they were the same, but as Bilbo is escaping from
Gollum, he mentions this.

--
chris		|  no signature, I'm too tired to think of something cute.
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: gds@york.cs.ucla.edu (Greg Skinner)
Subject: Re: Gandalf as Olorin (was Re: Bombadil etc.)
Originator: gds@york.cs.ucla.edu
Reply-To: gds@cs.ucla.edu (Greg Skinner)
Organization: in your face!
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 93 00:49:45 GMT

In article <1993Jan7.220553.12850@netcom.com> solovay@netcom.com (Andrew Solovay) writes:
>Couldn't be. Ungoliant, alone, almost destroyed Melkor; Melkor had to
>call on the Balrogs to help drive her off. No Maia could be this
>powerful. If she's in any category, she's a "bombadil", i.e. powerful,
>unexplained thing that's been around forever and doesn't answer direct
>questions.

Ungoliant almost destroyed Melkor because

* Melkor put a lot of his power into her before they came to Valinor
  and she drank from the Trees
* drinking from the Trees increased her power further
* the jewels Melkor gave her that were stolen from Finwe's stronghold
  increased her power still further
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: mvoorhis@granite.WPI.EDU (Michael C Voorhis)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Bombadil etc.
Date: 4 Jan 93 19:26:34
Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute, Worcester, MA 01609-2280
	<TJG01.92Dec31093404@thdhub.HomeDepot.COM>
	<MVOORHIS.92Dec31113246@granite.WPI.EDU>
	<1993Jan4.015214.18526@leland.Stanford.EDU>
NNTP-Posting-Host: granite.wpi.edu
In-reply-to: alderson@cisco.com's message of Mon, 4 Jan 93 01:52:14 GMT

In article <1993Jan4.015214.18526@leland.Stanford.EDU> alderson@cisco.com (Rich Alderson) writes:
> In article <MVOORHIS.92Dec31113246@granite.WPI.EDU>, mvoorhis@granite (Michael C Voorhis) writes:
> >Why would Eru have to send anyone to Middle earth to `get the lay of the
> >land'?  Everything that ever happened there was as a result of Eru's
> >thought... He knew what would be happening, when, where, how, who,
> >etcetera.
> 
>  No.  Tolkien was a believer in free will.  In his conception, Iluvatar/Eru
> created the world, including the discords woven by Melkor, *and turned it
> loose*.  He did *not* keep moment to moment control--to do so would make its
> inhabitants no less puppets than Aule's creations.

In The Silmarillion, at the end of the three themes of the great music,
Illuvatar said to the Ainur:

` [...] And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath
not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite.
For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising
of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.'

This is my basis for belief that illuvatar has precognition of all events
in Ea; although it may seem a tenuous basis.  Illuvatar devised the themes
which when given a manifestation became Arda; I believe that thus he has
devised all the themes which comprise Arda, and that no matter how one
tries to go against the destiny of Arda, that one will, as Eru said, only
show himself to be an instrument of Eru's great scheme.

	Mike.
	(mvoorhis@wpi.wpi.edu)
From: REXLEX
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Gandalf as Olorin (was Re: Bombadil etc.)
Date: 7 Jan 1993 19:20:03 GMT
Organization: FNAL.GOV
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: espc3.fnal.gov

In article <1hvqb9INNg55@darkstar.UCSC.EDU> bafta@ucscb.UCSC.EDU
(dragon-monster) writes:
>
>I seem to recall that Saruman is identified with an Elvish named Maia
>but as I am at work I cannot possibly recall where.  In the Silmarillion
>appendix, mayhap, or possibly the LoTR appendix.
>

   Several years ago I took the unenviable task of make a geneology of all the
characters of JRRT's world.  I show that there was a classification of creation
called the Maiar, of which the Istari were a subcatagory.  (References! Who
knows, that was a long time ago.  I did send a copy to a copy to JRRT in
England, but he died shortly thereafter and never heard anything about it.) 
Maiar are the "lesser spirits".  Gothaur is listed third behind Eonwe and
Limare.  Eonwe possessed a Silmaril and of course Gothaur (Saron) possessed a
Palantiri.  Also listed under the Maiar are the Valarukar, "the demons of
night" (Balrogs). Gothmog and Durins Bane are the only two named.  Also,
Ungoliant *maybe* classified under this heading.  Another undocumented list of
being were the Melkorians,whom Orome was the pursuer of.
   I've often wondered if I should make the chart more readily available. 
Those whom I have given it to received it blissfully.  I know of one mistake on
the lineage of the Atani, but do not now know what it is.  (two with the same
name having the wrong tree underneath.
   It was done on parchment with an -01 tipped graphon pen using gold to shadow
some of the major names, and crimson, shamrock and blue for the notation of the
various ownership of the three rings.  Also, there is a silver lineage for the
Silmarils.  It measures 18" X 24" on the original, but I believe have some
reduced 11 X 14 copies some place.  
   If anyone is interested in a copy, lets discuss it first.  Maybe with a few
bucks for the work (several months as I recall) and the envelope and mailing
taken care of, I might consider sending it out.  I've also drawn maps of ME and
Belerian.  I guess the good Lord was with me because my mom was from ENGLAND
and my "nana" new JRRT personally.  So I use to get exquisite little maps and
neat little books from my nany at Christmas.  But alas, I have only a few of
them now.  

Bauglir Morgoth

Loren Senders
[REXLEX@fnal.fnal.gov]
FNAL  MS 306
PO Box 500
Batavia, Il.  60510   USA
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: rjackson@cantor.math.uwaterloo.ca (Darkman)
Subject: Prophecy of Mandos
Keywords: There aren't any.
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1993 00:52:31 GMT

I just read the Silmarillion not long ago and read something about the second
Prophecies of Mandos. (His first being when the Noldor were leaving Valinor.)
Does anyone know what these prophesies are?  I don't.  There are many Tolkien books that I haven't read. (ie. Lays of Berialand, Book of Lost tales etc.)
Is it mentioned anywhere in there? Or is this just something that we will never know about?
Any answer is appriciated.

Darkman
May the vermin from the depths of Hades arise and vomit on your eyeballs!
From: damm@diku.dk (Kristian Damm Jensen)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: shape of Ea before end of second era ?
Date: 12 Jan 93 10:59:56 GMT
Organization: Department of Computer Science, U of Copenhagen

<IO20746@MAINE.MAINE.EDU> writes:

>I think another important little tidnit that should be kept in mind-
>JRR Tolkien did not complete the Silmarillon, he passed away
>(unfortunately) before it's completion and his son, Christopher
>completed the work. While I don't know if that applies to the
>particular debate, I think it should be kept in mind that any
>inconsistencies found could be the result of the change in authors.
>Anyways godd fantasizing (heh)

Or rather the development of Ea within Tolkiens mind. Remember, it
wasn't fully fledged, but kept on evolving from 1917 (ca) to his
death. THAT (and the fact that he didn't complete it himself) is the
primary source of inconsistecies. I don't beleive Christoffer made
much more than editorial changes.
-- 
Kristian Damm Jensen (damm@diku.dk)
"Life is like a sewer - what you get out of it depends on what you put into it"
- Tom Lehrer
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: egdorf@zaphod.lanl.gov (Skip Egdorf)
Subject: Re: Death of a Maia
Organization: Los Alamos National Laboratory
	<1id73rINNrrm@uwm.edu>
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 18:47:32 GMT

In article <1id73rINNrrm@uwm.edu> paulg@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Paul A Gunderson) writes:

>   In article <1i7ekbINNddf@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> ses2@po.CWRU.Edu (S. E. Stansfield) writes:
>   >
>   >In TLOTR there are three Maiar that "die".  Sauron, Saruman and the Balrog.
>   >In the first two cases there is a cloud that appears and then disperses.
>
>   >When Saruman is killed on the doorstep of Bag End the cloud "looks" to the
>   >west and is dispersed by a suddenly appearing wind.
>
>   Gandalf also dies in LotR.  Tally up four dead Maia in LotR.  :-)

This is a common misconception regarding Maiar that keeps popping up.

No Maiar "die" in TLOTR.

Gandalf came to middle Earth (as did all the five Wizards) in human bodies.
It is explicitly stated that these bodies could be killed and could suffer
all the pains of true humans except that they would not die of natural
old age.

Both Sauron and the Balrog are "slain" to the extent that they will not
take a form in Middle Earth again (though this is not explicitly stated in
the books in the case of the Balrog.) Their existance as Maiar continues.
Just where (?) and in what form is never explained. Note that Sauron is not
described as dead, but "in such a form that his spirit will never trouble
Middle Earth again." This from memory, but I believe that the comment is
made at Elrond's council by Gandalf when discussing what would happen if the
Ring is unmade, and is made again by Gandalf after the Ring is gone.

Saruman's human body is slain by Wormtongue and his spirit (Pure Maia form ??)
tries to return to the west but is rejected. Just where the Maia (no longer
in a human body) goes is left to conjecture. I believe that JRRT wrote a bit
about this, but I don't have the reference.

Gandalf's human body is slain by the Balrog. His "true" self, the Maia, returns
to the West (since he later says that he was "returned" for a short time to
finish his task) and is then returned to Middle Earth. A case can be made
that upon his return he is no longer in a human body, but in a more powerful
form that no longer has the limitations of the original Wizard's human bodies.
Ref: Gandalfs comment to Gimli in Fangorn about how "indeed, none of you has
a weapon that could touch me now."

					Skip Egdorf
					hwe@lanl.gov


Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: kthompso@kronos.arc.nasa.gov (Kevin Thompson)
Subject: Re: Hobbits (was Re: Bombadil), and Maiar/N
Organization: NASA/ARC Information Sciences Division
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 21:49:37 GMT

In article <1iso1rINN4fs@tamsun.tamu.edu> sam4628@iam.unibe.ch writes:
>In article 14652@hubcap.clemson.edu, jdelcol@eng.clemson.edu (delcollo joseph j) writes:
>>

>>feanor was slain by Balrogs, caught by them with a small party when he got
>>rash and ran ahead of every one else supposedly. 

Yes, but my memory is that he lasted a long time, it was an epic battle, etc
-- not what one would expect if Balrogs were Maiar (which is at least
speculated?) and they outnumbered Feanor.

>When Gandalf faced the Balrog, he remarked that he was 'already tired',
>putting him at a disadvantage in a fight with a virtual equal.

Yes, but Gandalf's partially tired from the battle of door-spells with the
balrog, so the balrog is tired as well [I'm partially being devil's advocate,
I realize Gandalf had led the party down from Cadhadras, to the gates of
Moria, through Moria, etc].  Incidentally, this is another good example of my
thinking Tolkien's notion of "power" is sorta strange -- I can't tell if the
battle between Gandalf and Durin's Bane is using "magic" (spells, whatever)
or traditional weapons (e.g. swords).  I think the former -- that's why I
find the Fingolfin/Melkor sword/shield battle at the gates of Thangorodrim
strange.  Sorry if I'm sounding anal -- I do *not* want to be one of those
insisting on Tolkien's consistency through thousands of pages, I'm in part
trying to understand and in part trying to provoke discussion about anything
other than Bombadil and Mushroom Thieves :).

Kevin Thompson
-- 
kthompso@ptolemy.arc.nasa.gov     Artificial Intelligence Research Laboratory
(415) 604-4767 (voicemail)        NASA-Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: mcconnel@Nimitz.mcs.kent.edu (Mike McConnell)
Subject: Re: Ent Nature (Was Orcs in the Last Alliance)
Keywords: Ents, trees
Organization: Kent State University
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 21:30:34 GMT

>In article <C0EGJw.K1I@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> dwight@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Dwight 
>Robert Stone) writes:
>I thought that the Ents were getting more and more Huronish and the Hurons
>were getting more and more tree-like.  This follows in with the "middle-earth
>became our world" theme (e.g. the hobbits becoming more and more man-like,
>the elves leaving, magic fading, etc...)

But the hobbits did not become more man-like.  Instead, they became smaller and 
more adept at avoiding clumsy noisy 'big people'.  If anything, the hobbits 
became more hobbit-like.