HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: strom@Watson.Ibm.Com (Rob Strom)
Subject: Re: Secular Jews
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 92 16:03:45 GMT
Organization: IBM Research

In article <141571.2B37FC0B@paranet.FIDONET.ORG>, Bill.Carlson@p0.f18.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Bill Carlson) writes:
|> 
|>  -=> Quoting Usenet News to All <=-
|> 
|>  UN> Date: 16 Dec 92 14:22:26 GMT
|>  UN> Message-ID: <921216092226.28804536@ALF.CS.HH.AB.COM>
|>  UN> Newsgroups: alt.messianic
|>  UN> 
|>  UN> 
|>  UN> Someone told me today that the percentage of Secular Jews was over
|>  UN> 60% world wide. 
|>  UN> 
|>  UN> Can anyone verify this number?
|> 
|>      Pretty close.  In Israel, there are more secular Jews than in
|>      the United States, but that would be pretty close.  Of course,
|>      some of that figure of "secular Jews" would still include some
|>      that were "traditional Reform" in observance, yet secular in
|>      their attitude of Divine inspiration of Torah, (for example).
|>      There are more Messianic Jews in the USA and the world than there
|>      are Frum/Orthodox in Israel :-)
|> 

One thing that makes this whole discussion unclear is the
varying definitions used in different places.

In Israel, the peculiarities of coalition government
result in the religious parties' having strong control
over the forms religious Judaism can take.  

Many people who call themselves secular Jews in Israel
would be Conservative or even Orthodox over here in the US.
The modern Hebrew word usually translated as "religious"
has a much narrower connotation than the English word "religious".
I know an Israeli family who called themselves "totally non-religious",
and later came to the US and immediately joined a Conservative
synagogue, and had their children undergo the usual
religious training.  Are they "secular"??

By the way, traditional Reform considers the
Torah divinely inspired.  

There is a similar uncertainty in the definition
of Messianic "Jew".  This has led to a lot of
confusion on this bulletin board.

For example, is Bruce Benning, who is not Jewish, but
attends a Messianic synagogue to be counted?

Are the "Jews for Jesus" and "Hebrew Christians"
to be counted?  In earlier discussions, they seemed
to be counted whenever it was to the poster's advantage
to inflate the statistics, and not counted whenever
it was to the poster's advantage to distance himself
or the Messianic movement from criticisms of those groups.

Are halachically Jewish individuals who practice
mainstream Christianity counted?  At least one
statistic posted here used this overbroad criterion.



-- 
Rob Strom, strom@watson.ibm.com, (914) 784-7641
IBM Research, 30 Saw Mill River Road, P.O. Box 704, Yorktown Heights, NY  10598
From: jtauber@tartarus.uwa.edu.au (James Tauber)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Reb/Rav/Rabbi/Rabban...
Date: 31 Dec 1992 13:41:09 GMT
Organization: The University of Western Australia
NNTP-Posting-Host: tartarus.uwa.edu.au
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5

Can someone please distinguish the *usage* of the following:

Reb
Rebbe
Rav
Rabbi
Rabban
Rabboni

I understand Reb to be a general term of respect, Rebbe to be a
great Rabbi/leader of a Jewish community, Rabbi to mean my Rav,
Rabboni - our Rav (a greater Rav).

Would it be more wise, especially in light of Jesus' "do not be called
Rabbi" for me as a Gentile Christian to refer to Rabbis as simply Rav
as HaShem is *my Rav*.
Also, is it polite to refer to members of the orthodox synagogue I sometimes
attend as Reb such-and-such and if so, should I use their first name with Reb
or their surname?

Thanks in advance.

James Tauber (Yaakov ben-Avraham)
jtauber@tartarus.uwa.edu.au

PS I'd post this to scj, but they'd flame me for proselytizing!
From: abvax!ALF.CS.HH.AB.COM!BENNING
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Chanukah greetings.
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 13:00:17 -0500 (EST)


                   +
   +   +   +       =
   =   =   =   =   =   =   =   =   =      May the Power behind the
   =   =   =   =   =   =   =   =   =      story of Chanukah be known
   =   =   =   =   =   =   =   =   =      in your lives today, through
   =   =   =   =   =   =   =   =   =      the grace given through Him
   =   =   =   =   =   =   =   =   =      who is the Light of the world.
   =================================
                   =                       * Yeshua! *
                  ===
                   =
                  ===
                   =
         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

  Be blessed!

  Bruce Benning  BENNING@ALF.CS.HH.AB.COM
From: Bill.Carlson@p0.f18.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Bill Carlson)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Queries From Former Sda
Date: 23 Dec 92 00:32:08 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/18.0 - Midrash, Denver CO

To: miner@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu

 Mi> Date: 18 Dec 92 02:14:30 GMT
 Mi> Organization: University of Kansas Academic Computing Services
 Mi> Message-ID: <1992Dec17.201431.45731@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu>
 Mi> Newsgroups: alt.messianic

 Mi> publications on the Yiddish language, and an avid reader and
 Mi> admirer of Jewish literature.  I even have a copy of Einspruch's
 Mi> _Bris Khadoshe_ which I treasure (and can pretty well read).

     If you could provide any English translations of Rashi on Is.7
     with the sources I'd sure appreciate it.

 Mi> 1) Is there a diversity of MJ groups, or is it more or less a
 Mi> unified movement?

     More or less a unified movement - with some diversity :-)  Of
     course, I'm given to understand there is a conservative and
     reform expression of SDA's too, correct?

 Mi> 2) If there are factions, what divides them?

     "Mainly" specifics of expression; but little in the way of major
     doctrines.  Dogma mostly.

 Mi> 3) What positions along the liberal-conservative continuum does
 Mi> the theology take?

     Conservative.

 Mi> 4) Where do MJs stand on the current U.S. "culture wars?"

     Could you be more specific?

 Mi> 5) Are there many adherents who are ethnically non-Jewish, like
 Mi> me?  Does it make any sense to speak of "conversion" of an ethnic
 Mi> Christian to MJ?

     It would be more of a "return" than a conversion to take upon ones
     self a Messianic expression.  {of course, that is what the Greek
     word sometimes translated as 'conversion' means, if I recall
     correctly, a 'returning'}  But there are Messianic Jews and
     Messianic Gentiles in our Shules.  Being SDA no doubt you already
     have somewhat of a understanding of the 'commandments' and
     Shabbat, and we have several former SDA that attend here in
     Denver.  But you don't have to "convert" to Judiasm to either know
     Messiah Yeshua, or to attend and fellowship together.

... 012 Think not that I am come to annul the Torah or the Prophets: 210      
--  
Bill Carlson - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: Bill.Carlson@p0.f18.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: billg@bony1.bony.com (Bill Gripp)
Subject: Re: The Crucifixion Prophecy??
Organization: LA&W RR
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 92 22:23:36 GMT

In article <1ha07lINNn1l@terminator.rs.itd.umich.edu> jlove@ivrit.ra.itd.umich.edu (Jack Love) writes:

>My Christian friends have often queried me with genuine curiosity about
>what I believe about the messiah, and with respect I am always
>compelled to say that for me, the issue just isn't very important. I
>think the same can be said of huge portions of Jews throughout
>history.

While this may be true, why do some groups, such as the Lubavitch, seem
to have this "obsession" with Moshiach?
From: Bill.Carlson@p0.f18.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Bill Carlson)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Shem Tov Version Of Matthew
Date: 22 Dec 92 23:41:07 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/18.0 - Midrash, Denver CO

To: harwood@umiacs.umd.edu

 DH> Date: 17 Dec 92 23:59:27 GMT
 DH> Organization: UMIACS, University of Maryland, College Park, MD 20742
 DH> Message-ID: <62916@mimsy.umd.edu>
 DH> Newsgroups: alt.messianic

 DH> I appreciate your effort. I was actually wanting to get an
 DH> scholarly review (reference to a couple of journal articles, if
 DH> possible - there should be some for such a discovery).

     Please see prior article for such.

... 012 Sh'ma Yisrael: HaShem - El*hienu - HaShem ECHAD! ... 210  
--  
Bill Carlson - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: Bill.Carlson@p0.f18.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG
From: ucakrvb@ucl.ac.uk (Vijay Bhuchar)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Christians Reject Jesus,Embrace Torah
Date: 22 Dec 92 19:23:46 GMT
Organization: Bloomsbury Computing Consortium

In article <1992Dec22.040958.24507@panix.com> moskowit@panix.com (Len Moskowitz) writes:
>
>So how about it?  May I post more here on a.m about ex-Christians
>who reject Jesus to become Bnai Noah following Orthodox halachic
>guidelines?
>
>Might be interesting.
>
>-- 
>Len Moskowitz
>moskowit@panix.com

That wouldnot really be fair as I intend to post up Classic Jewish
testimonies in the New Year.  So we will be using the one forum for
2 different types of propoganda.

Vijay
From: Bill.Carlson@p0.f18.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Bill Carlson)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Secular Jews
Date: 22 Dec 92 23:56:03 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/18.0 - Midrash, Denver CO


 -=> Quoting Usenet News to All <=-

 UN> Date: 16 Dec 92 14:22:26 GMT
 UN> Message-ID: <921216092226.28804536@ALF.CS.HH.AB.COM>
 UN> Newsgroups: alt.messianic
 UN> 
 UN> 
 UN> Someone told me today that the percentage of Secular Jews was over
 UN> 60% world wide. 
 UN> 
 UN> Can anyone verify this number?

     Pretty close.  In Israel, there are more secular Jews than in
     the United States, but that would be pretty close.  Of course,
     some of that figure of "secular Jews" would still include some
     that were "traditional Reform" in observance, yet secular in
     their attitude of Divine inspiration of Torah, (for example).
     There are more Messianic Jews in the USA and the world than there
     are Frum/Orthodox in Israel :-)

... Am Israel Chai!    
--  
Bill Carlson - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: Bill.Carlson@p0.f18.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG
From: harwood@umiacs.umd.edu (David Harwood)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Humanism (personal experience)
Date: 22 Dec 92 04:08:02 GMT
Organization: UMIACS, University of Maryland, College Park, MD 20742


Best wishes for joyful holidays to Rob S- and Rob L-,
and to everyone of this group.

Peace be yours in the coming year.
David H.
From: abvax!ALF.CS.HH.AB.COM!BENNING
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: re: Christians Reject Jesus, Embrace Torah
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 13:47:36 -0500 (EST)

>From: moskowit@panix.com (Len Moskowitz)
>Subject: Re: Christians Reject Jesus,Embrace Torah


>Bruce Benning writes:
>
>> Well, well, well. Len launched this prize to alt.messianic. I'm sure we
>> could have days of commentary on it. I would just like to say that with
>> this type of post, since I'm sure Len would not do to others what he
>> himself would NOT WANT others to do to him, IS Inviting the readers of A.M.
>> to submit posts to SCJ on all those we know who left the self-righteous
>> traditions of the rabbis for the truth of Messiah Yeshua.

 Len responds:

>My apologies to the readers of alt.messianic.  A messianic evangelist
>posted some his missionizing material to s.c.j and I responded in kind
>both on s.c.j and also to a.m where followups were directed.

 Seeing the barrage of "Christian issues" on SCJ, I can understand your
 transmission of negative information to alt.messianic. You just want your
 newsgroup to go back to what it was intended for. That's not to much to
 ask. But you should want the same for us as well.

 As one of the SCJ posters once said to me, your sincerity will be evident
 by your actions of no longer posting this type of articles.


>In keeping with Christian philosophy though, I suggest that a proper
>response for Bruce is for him to offer me "his other cheek."  Why not
>welcome posts that put beliefs in Jesus into question?  The Bnai Noah
>are a wonderful challenge to Christianity and even more so to
>messianics.
>
 OH this is cute! A new Messianic Jewish rabbi on AM doing some preaching?

 Let me first show this to you:

   Matthew 5:38 "You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and
   tooth for tooth.'

   Matthew 5:39 But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If
   someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other
   also.

 If you, Len, want us to acknowledge you as an evil person, I guess we can
 turn to you our other cheek. But that turning of cheek is more of an
 attitude than the action of offering you the opportunity to slap me around
 some more. I will do as Yeshua commands;

   Luke 6:27-28 "But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good
   to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who
   mistreat you.

 Also, if we allow you to post your "Type" of articles, then will you allow
 us to post our "type (adds for Jews For Jesus, addresses/phone # of the
 many Messianic Congregations...)" of articles on S.C.J.?

 Since I believe that I should do to to others as I would have them do to me,
 I have remained off the S.C.J. newsgroup. I can't speak for the others.

 So what do you think folks? Should we allow our news group to be used
 for the purpose of anti-missionaries?

  ---  ---> My vote is [X]-NOT.


> Might be interesting.

 To those with an interest in that sort of thing. In the spirit of Chanukah,
 it would be like WATCHING you sacrificing a pig on the altar of the
 Most High.

                 ...................................

 Bruce Benning   BENNING@ALF.CS.HH.AB.COM
From: harwood@umiacs.umd.edu (David Harwood)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re:  Christian Kabbalah
Date: 23 Dec 92 17:33:05 GMT
Organization: UMIACS, University of Maryland, College Park, MD 20742

In article <1h796cINNhnd@msuinfo.cl.msu.edu\\ friedenb@emerald.egr.msu.edu (Gedaliah Friedenberg) writes:
\\In article <1992Dec19.173417.994@dragon.com\\ cms@dragon.com (Spawn of a Jewish Carpenter (Cindy Smith)) writes:
\\
\\[article deleted - .sig follows]
\\
\\-- 
\\Cindy Smith              --  Spawn of a Jewish Carpenter
\\cms@dragon.com           ||  A Real Live Catholic in Georgia
\\                             ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
\\       **AT LEAST CINDY WAS KIND ENOUGH TO REMIND US THAT**
\\             **"MESSIANIC" JEWS ARE CHRISTIANS!!!!**
\\
\\\\\\\\\\\

Uh - I think Cindy might be a individual Catholic "sympathyzer" of 
Messianic Jews, and is kind enough to remind us of who she is.


\\emory!dragon!cms         ||  
\\\\<\\                      /\  Woe to craven hearts and drooping hands,
\\Delay not your       .--/--\--.  to the sinner who treads a double path!
\\conversion       |----\/-||-\/----| Woe to the faint of heart who trust not,
\\to the Lord,     |----/\-||-/\----|   who therefore will have no shelter!
\\put it not off       `--\--/--'     Woe to you who have lost hope!
\\from day to day          \/   what will you do at the visitation of the Lord?
\\                         ||           
\\     -- Ecclesiasticus   ||           -- Ecclesiasticus/Ben Sira 2:12-14  
\\        /Ben Sira 5:8    --    
\\
\\
\\
\\(P.S., overlaying a "Jewish Star" on a cross is like overlaying a 
\\swastika on a peace symbol.  It is impossible to mix such things.)
\\
\\\\\\\\\\

But the Messiah is to reconcile Jews and Gentiles with God, which
is not impossible for God.

D.H.
From: Harvey.Smith@p0.f1.n7002.z8.FIDONET.ORG (Harvey Smith)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Messianic Judaism (inter-marriage)
Date: 30 Dec 92 02:54:28 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 8:7002/1.0

>> a ticket to High Holy days at the local Synagogue, and we 
always
>> advertise Free Seats...

 RAL> Well, if it's on record, where might one proof of this?
 RAL> (i.e., newspaper, date, page )

Sorry Rob, it was the president of the Shul, who told this to one of our elders. 
--  
Harvey Smith - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: Harvey.Smith@p0.f1.n7002.z8.FIDONET.ORG
From: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (Robert A. Levene)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Christians Reject Jesus,Embrace Torah
Date: 22 Dec 1992 18:03:57 -0600
Organization: Johns Hopkins University
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

In article <1992Dec22.192346.18970@bas-a.bcc.ac.uk>
Vijay Buchar writes:

> That wouldnot really be fair as I intend to post up Classic Jewish
> testimonies in the New Year.  So we will be using the one forum for
> 2 different types of propoganda.

All propaganda concerning Jesus, his alleged being a man-god messiah,
the Hebrew-Christian movement, Jews who accept Christianty, etc.
is fair game here in alt.messianic.  That's why the group was
created in the first place, to shunt away the discussion from
groups in which it was unwelcome.

(Similarly, "talk.politics.mideast" was created to shunt
 politics away from soc.culture.jewish, "alt.discrimination" was
 created to shunt away affirmative-action flamewars from 
 soc.culture.african.american, and "talk.abortion" was created
 to shunt abortion flamewars from the rest of Usenet.)

There's always the moderated soc.religion.christian, or you
could create an altnet group chartered such that posts opposing
your views be unwelcome.  How about "alt.christian.hebrew"
or "alt.christian.biblical" as names?

Rob
From: Bill.Carlson@p0.f18.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Bill Carlson)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Chuck Missler And Imminent Armageddo
Date: 31 Dec 92 03:12:20 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/18.0 - Midrash, Denver CO

To: hem@col400.att.com

 HEM> Date: 29 Dec 92 20:02:57 GMT
 HEM> Organization: AT&T Federal Systems
 HEM> Message-ID: <1992Dec29.200257.19447@cbfsb.cb.att.com>
 HEM> Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.messianic
 HEM> 
 HEM> In article <9212291703.AA10956@aplpy.jhuapl.edu>
 HEM> levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (Robert A. Levene) writes: >In article
 HEM> <28DEC199219414469@skyblu.ccit.arizona.edu> tis written: >
 >> While visiting my parents over the holidays, my stepfather gave me
 >> a cassette of a lecture by Chuck Missler to listen to...
 >>
 >> 2.  In Genesis 49:10, the first letter of each Hebrew word spells out
 >> (in Hebrew) the message "I am Yeshua, the shepherd king."  (Anyone here
 >> know enough Hebrew to verify/refute this?)
 >
 >jtauber@tartarus.uwa.edu.au provides the letter names:
 >
 >"lamed yod shin mem vav mem resh ayin kaf yod shin vav yod ayin"
 >
 >In Hebrew, they are:
 > _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ ___   _ _ __  ,__  _ ,__  _ _ _ _ |_ 
 > | | | | | | | |    |  | |   | |  | | |  | | | | |   |
 >_|/    | |/_/    ___| _|/    | | _| | | _| |/_/     / 

Oh sure sure.  You could also come up with "close" to the following:

#1.  I have a Name and [am] a friend; [it is] like: Yeshu-YA!

#2.  [v.10]...- To Me.  Named, and a friend, as [is] Yeshu-YA!

#3.  To Me [there] is a Name, and-[a future]-(Biblical Hebrew tense)-
     friend, when/as Yeshu-YA (I come)!

#4.  I have put [this one for you, (v.10)]-(in the future Biblical
     tense)-a friend, as Yeshu-YA!

                Considering the context of the verse... :-)

Of course, one might continue the "darash" on the verse...
     And why is it written Yeshu-Ya, instead of Yeshua-YAH?  Since one
     needs to be close to one who is a "friend", so those who beheld
     from afar, did not notice the pattach with their "eyes" and so
     dropped the ahyin from His Name.  -  And He became to them as one
     with a "blemish" - which reminds us of what the Talmud says of
     Messiah the-leper - (which is one who is a 'blemished one'.)  But
     the writings of the sages have told us that 'HaShem bestowed a
     portion of His supernatural glory upon Messiah', and again: 'that
     He shall give unto Messiah even His own Name.'  So..., HaShem,
     blessed be He!, gave the yud from His Name, as a "hook" to draw
     men to the understanding of HaMashiach as His own Salvation.  And
     when men draw to the Salvation of HaShem, as a friend, so then
     they shall behold the full Name of Mashiach, as the Salvation of
     YAH!
Of course, we don't want to put too much stock in that type of a
understanding of Scripture now, do we?!

... 012 Shalom Alechem ---> <--- Alechem Shalom 210          
--  
Bill Carlson - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: Bill.Carlson@p0.f18.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG
From: lhh@cbnewsm.cb.att.com (leonard.h.horn)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Christian Kabbalah
Date: 23 Dec 92 21:01:24 GMT
Organization: AT&T


In article <1h796cINNhnd@msuinfo.cl.msu.edu>, friedenb@emerald.egr.msu.edu (Gedaliah Friedenberg) writes:
> In article <1992Dec19.173417.994@dragon.com> cms@dragon.com (Spawn of a Jewish Carpenter (Cindy Smith)) writes:
> 
> [article deleted - .sig follows]
> 
> -- 
> Cindy Smith              --  Spawn of a Jewish Carpenter
> cms@dragon.com           ||  A Real Live Catholic in Georgia
>                              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>        **AT LEAST CINDY WAS KIND ENOUGH TO REMIND US THAT**
>              **"MESSIANIC" JEWS ARE CHRISTIANS!!!!**
> 
> emory!dragon!cms         ||  
> ><>                      /\  Woe to craven hearts and drooping hands,
> Delay not your       .--/--\--.  to the sinner who treads a double path!
> conversion       |----\/-||-\/----| Woe to the faint of heart who trust not,
> to the Lord,     |----/\-||-/\----|   who therefore will have no shelter!
> put it not off       `--\--/--'     Woe to you who have lost hope!
> from day to day          \/   what will you do at the visitation of the Lord?
>                          ||           
>      -- Ecclesiasticus   ||           -- Ecclesiasticus/Ben Sira 2:12-14  
>         /Ben Sira 5:8    --    
> 
> 
> 
> Gedaliah Friedenberg says:
> (P.S., overlaying a "Jewish Star" on a cross is like overlaying a 
> swastika on a peace symbol.  It is impossible to mix such things.)

I dont know if its impossible to mix a Star of David and a Cross/Crucifix  -
but to suggest an analogy with a swastika was very 
unfair and even cruel to Cindy.

		Len Horn
From: jlove@ivrit.ra.itd.umich.edu (Jack Love)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Almah in Isa 7:14
Date: 30 Dec 1992 18:33:05 GMT
Organization: /usr/local/trn/lib/organization
NNTP-Posting-Host: ivrit.ra.itd.umich.edu

In article <141659.2B3FA73F@paranet.FIDONET.ORG> Harvey.Smith@p0.f1.n7002.z8.FIDONET.ORG (Harvey Smith) writes:
>
>While there is great debate between Rabbinics and Christians as to the wording and the meaning of the word Almah in the Masoretic text, and Parthenos in the Septuagent.

Here you go again. There is no debate between "Rabbinics and Christians"
on this issue. There is only a debate between literalists and everyone
else. Literalists cannot abide the fact that Biblical text is occasionally
unclear, cannot be indisputably interpreted, and has often been 
miscommunicated and misinterpreted throughout history, both ancient
and modern. If the debate is between anyone and "Christians" why do
so many Christian translations and commentaries accept "young woman"
as the correct text and either reject or question "virgin?"
-- 
________________________________________
Jack F. Love	| 	Opinions expressed are mine alone.
		|	(Unless you happen to agree.)