Newsgroups: bit.listserv.gaynet
Date:         Tue, 28 Jul 1992 17:10:17 -0400
From:         gaynet@ATHENA.MIT.EDU
Subject:      GayNet Digest Volume 5 Issue 583

In this issue:
                        to drag or not to drag?!
                            Lt. Tracy Thorne
                     Bush's approval rating in NYS
                             INVALID POIHT
                            Locke's comments
                             Texas software
                      a last try, hopefully polite
                            Day Without Art?
                           Offensive .sigs ?
                             Gay Deadheads
                      G/L/B Student Organizations

Please send messages for the entire list to gaynet@ATHENA.MIT.EDU,
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privacy, send your messages to gaynet-anonymous@ATHENA.MIT.EDU.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Jul 92 11:26:48 EST
From: "WILLIAM M. SCHENDEL" <WSCHENDE@ucs.indiana.edu>
Subject: to drag or not to drag?!

	Hello all, and greetings from Indiana University.

	I would like to pose a question to all of the Big Ten Gaynetters.

	Last year the I.U. GLB organization (OUT) was asked to sponsor a
	Ms. Gay I.U. Pagent as part of our annual Pride Week festivities.
	For one reason or another it was vetoed. But that is neither here
	nor there. Or is it?

	My question is, Have any other organizations within the Big Ten been
	approached about sponsoring a Ms. Gay _____ (fill in the blank) pagent?

	What was the response, and if not how would your organization react if
	this question were posed.

	You see I do have an alterior motive for asking this question, but
	more on that later.

	Anyway, if you could send me any info you might have on your campuses
	state of Drag it would be appreciated.


					William M. Schendel,
					Event planner and thinker upper,
					Indiana University

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 12:50 EST
From: DRPINELL@CC.OWU.EDU
Subject: Lt. Tracy Thorne

I watched Lt. Tracy Thorne being interviewed last night on Larry King
Live.  Thorne, the quintessential boy-next-door, very favorably
impressed me.  Besides being very handsome (I admit having an ever-so-
small crush on him), he is bright, polite and very pro-Navy.  Indeed,
he could easily play Richard Gere's role in "An Officer and a
Gentleman" (of course, substituting someone like Tom Cruise for Debra
Winger).

The Navy has an able adversary in Thorne, who should be exposed (!) as
much as possible to middle America to demonstrate the military policy's
lunacy.

Any body know how to make a contribution to Thorne's legal defense?

Dan Pinello
Dep't of Politics and Government
Ohio Wesleyan University
DRPINELL@CC.OWU.EDU

------------------------------

From: Greg Pratt <aragon@lachesis.acm.rpi.edu>
Subject: Re: Bush's approval rating in NYS
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 92 12:57:03 EDT

R. Derrick Mickle writes:
> Just heard on the radio that in NY State, Bush's approval rating is LOWER
> THAN RICHARD NIXON'S TWO DAY'S BEFORE HE ANNOUNCED HIS RESIGNATION!!!  They
> say Clinton's statewide approval rating is 58%, Bush's %24, and 14% are
> undecided.  Who says all the news is bad these days? :)

Just as a bit of warning to dampen your cheer: the reason that Clinton is
riding so high right now is because of the Democratic Convention.  The
Republican convention has not yet taken place.  When that happens, I
*GUARANTEE* that Bush's approval rating will go up.

However, in fairness, it may not go up enough to help Mr. Bush in the general
election in November.  I think Clinton has a good chance of winning --
perhaps not because of his merits so much as the fact that people want to get
rid of George Bush.

-
Gregory Pratt                               "The problem with the gene pool
Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute            is that there is no lifeguard."
Association for Computing Machinery                             --- unknown

------------------------------

Date:        Tue, 28 Jul 92 13:43:46 EDT
From: "AAKL000@CATCC.bitnet  Kevin S. Lowery Catonsville"
 <AAKL%CATCC.BITNET@mitvma.mit.edu>
Subject: INVALID POIHT

> Date: 27 Jul 92 23:49:21 EDT
> From: Thanalakshmi.Subramaniam@Dartmouth.EDU
> Subject: sig-files
>
> in reply to kevin:
> pur-leeze. theres a big difference between a quote that refers to women as
> fish and a quote that points out that women are often categorised as either
> sex objects or mindless idiots, thus making *feminist* a bizzarre state of
> existence. why u would feel a quote like that is volatile is beyond me.
> also, big difference between the rape scene in Prince of Tides and rape scene
> in Wild at Heart is the fucked up mushing of rape fantasies in Wild At Heart.
> i also never suggested that David Lynch shld have taken the scene out or
> whatever. i just said that that one scene in Wild at Heart bothered me
> because of the misogynist attitude.

Hey, lady, I am sorry.  I don't believe that.  If anything the one in
PofT is worse.  It happened to a YOUNG boy.  Laura Dern's character was
older.  By no means am I insinuating that she was more deserving of it.
We BOTH know that is not true.  However, I think it is more of a trau-
matic effect when younger people are abused.  They grow up
dysfunctionaland lots of us know what that is like whether we were
abused or not.  Just because it was not a WOMAN that was raped makes it
NO LESS or MORE serious than a woman being raped.  I think that you need
to look at it equally here.  If you want equality, which I will be the
first to admit and fight for on ALL fronts, then you have to be willing
to give it where it is due.  I think in this scenario it deserves it.

> peace and hot potatoes,
> shimi

________________________________________________________________________
\ think  /  Kevin S. Lowery            |
 \ pink /   Catonsville Com. College   | "Yes, we have Shrimp Scampi,
  \    /    800 South Rolling Road     | but I am sorry we have no
   \  /     Catonsville, MD 21228      | Fish"
    \/      AAKL000@CATCC.BITNET       |

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Jul 92 14:54:38 EDT
Subject: Locke's comments
From: An Anonymous Sender

        Well, Kevin, it seems as though my sig file has caused a bit of a
stir.  I had originally intended to address the film Wild at Heart, but it
don't think I have time today.  Please don't be upset, I will also be
discussing comments made by other netters.  This may be long.....

>>
>>                                             LOCKE
>>
>> "I myself have never been able to find out precisely what feminism is.  I
>> only know that people call me a feminist whenever I express sentiments that
>> differentiate me from a doormat, or a prostitute."   -Rebecca West, 1913

I believe this is the issue at hand (notice it _hasn't_ changed at the end
of the file)

>
>Woah, chill out baby!

Hmmmm.  It seems as though you haven't quite gotten a handle on what words
and phrases are offensive/derrogatory to women.  Your reply to Derrick's
statement:

>Well, girl, what you interpretted me as a paternalistic tone, was a
>misjudgement on your part.  When I use terms like girl, etc., it means
>as in "girlfriend." It doesn't mean "little girl!" (Ugh, vomit,
>vomit!)So maybe you shouldn't have been so quick to assume . . .

Actually, Kev, "baby," _is_ condecending to women, you didn't say _girl_
(as in "girlfriend.")  In this context (which is not personal endearment)
the word "baby" connotates infancy of thought and dependency.  And, as per
your earlier sig file, "fish" is alikend to "slut," "whore," and "cunt."
To say you didn't know _that_ makes me wonder how into the equal rights
movement (notice I am not saying femminist alone) you really are.  It makes
me wonder, does he call black people "spooks," "spades," or..."nigger?"

>I am tired of being harrassed by women

Um, Derrick and Tim failed the anatomy test.

>who make digs at my sig file filled with my "personal" reactions to life and
 then
>I get digged for pointing out someone else's (in my opinion) marginal sig?

What are your personal reactions?  I haven't read one single woman positive
thing yet (your work with newsletters and volunteer groups included.)
Dislike women much do you?

>Maybe all I ever hear from the feminist friends of mine and those with
>whom I dearly love the same old stuff over and over again and I hate
>hearing it.  Yes, they may be the victim BUT I AM NOT THE AGRESSOR!

Note: 1) the femminists in this sentence, are, by structure and context,
all women.
          2) No one, including myself and Ms. West, accused _you_ of being
the aggressor.

>that I was expected to delete out of my sig file something that the
>lesbian women on this net seemed to dislike.  All the while I MUST
>tolerate the opinions of a radical feminist in her sig file.

Not all of the people on this net are queer, so perhaps "lesbian women" is
incorrect.  I remember reading negative comments about your sig file from
_MEN_ too.  Besides, the point was that your sig was negative to all women
(see earlier comments about "whores.")  Kev, am I radical? am I even woman?
 Do you see my point by asking those questions?  If you assumed my sex
because I left somewhere crying, you are creating a stereotype that my
(male) friends would not appreciate.
Do you realize you are calling one of the early suffragettes a radical!
What would you call her present-day counterparts? Militant?

>Nobody is callin' you a doormat or a prostitute!.............Can we be a little
 more positive?

How do you know no one is calling my a doormat or a prostitute?  People
_are_ calling me those things.  The slang has changed to "bimbo" and "slut"
and, I'd like to point out that some people even consider the word
"femminist" to be bad.  Like, if you are a "femminist" you are radical,
opinionated and man-hating.  You even use the term in a somewhat negative
sense.  I personally am none of these things, but I am a femminist.

>Unfortunately, the people that NEED to read your message never really DO read
 your  messages.

Well, it has come time to explain Ms. West's statement.  First, please keep
in mind she was one of the first suffragettes.  We're talking 1913.  Even
the women who wanted to vote back then didn't have the nerve, for the most
part, to make a statement like that.  Second, she is saying that femminism
is a movement of thought and respect.  Third, she is commenting on her
views on how women were thought of and treated back then.
So, why put it in a sig file in 1992?  Well, I admire her.  It took a lot
of courage back then to say something like that.  She's saying she has
expressions of her own, as do I.  Also, it makes one reflect about whether
or not the views of women (and other minorities) are being respected
now...and how are we thought of by society as a whole.  Think about it.  If
a woman expresses strong viewpoints  on a subject, people will call her a
femminist.  "I deserve equal pay for equal work."  "I deserve equal
protection under the law."  "I deserve equal opportuinty."  These are all
classic movement statements.  If they are uttered by a woman (or a man
supporting women), they are femminist.  By the same token, if they are
uttered by a person of colour, they are associated with the Civil Rights
movement.  Please take the time to read it again at the end of this post, I
hope you will read it differently now.  It is _not_ a personal attack, and
while I still can't figure out how you read it as one, I hope I have
cleared things up for you.

>You can offend some of the people some of the time, and some of the people all
 of the time, but >certain people you can offend no matter what!

It occurs to me your new sig file is very representitve of you Kevin.  Stop
being so defensive, you started the war here, not me.


                            LOCKE
PS
**THANKS!!!! to everyone who came to my support and understood this sig
file to begin with.

"I myself have never been able to find out precisely what feminism is.  I
only know that people call me a feminist whenever I express sentiments that
differentiate me from a doormat, or a prostitute."   -Rebecca West, 1913

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Jul 92 14:55:13 EDT
Subject: Texas software
From: An Anonymous Sender

Sorry Mike, I am not the person you spoke with before lunch...I've never
been to the Mid-West and I don't recall speaking with anyone in my neck of
the North-Eastern woods who was from Notre Dame.  I hope you meet that
person again though.      :)

                                    LOCKE




"I myself have never been able to find out precisely what feminism is.  I
only know that people call me a feminist whenever I express sentiments that
differentiate me from a doormat, or a prostitute."   -Rebecca West, 1913

------------------------------

Date:         Tue, 28 Jul 92 13:16:38 MST
From: "Gabriel (in New Mexico)" <G9348712%NMSUVM1.BITNET@mitvma.mit.edu>
Subject:      a last try, hopefully polite

  "I myself have never been able to find out precisely what feminism is.  I
  only know that people call me a feminist whenever I express sentiments that
  differentiate me from a doormat, or a prostitute."   -Rebecca West, 1913


 Note that nowhere in the above quote is any single person mentioned other
 than the author.  The quote does not even refer to *men* as the perpretrators.
 I believe that the ordinary interpretation of "people" in the quote would be
 "a large number of persons, perhaps a majority of the persons with whom I
  come in contact."  I like the quote very much, and find it applies to me
 sometimes:  "People call me a feminist whenever I express sentiments that
 differentiate women from doormats or prostitutes."  I can truly say that
 quote is accurate far too often.

Gabriel (in New Mexico)

------------------------------

Date:         Tue, 28 Jul 92 15:34:18 EDT
From: Mark Overton <MOVERTON@Kentvm.Kent.edu>
Subject:      Day Without Art?

Hi all. Is anyone familiar with the AIDS awareness project "A Day Without
Art?" I believe it occurs in art galleries and museums, visually reminding
patrons of the terrible losses AIDS has imposed on the arts communities.
I think it happens in conjunction with World AIDS Day in early December.
Any leads?

------------------------------

From: burton@umbc5.umbc.edu (Mr. Joel Burton)
Subject: Re: Offensive .sigs ?
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 92 16:07:34 EDT

Kevin Lowery writes:
> Well, dearest derrick, I think that this is a free forum that I can
> express my opinions in as well as you or the originator of the sig file
> that I first addressed.  I am tired of being harrassed by women who make
> digs at my sig file filled with my "personal" reactions to life and then
> I get digged for pointing out someone else's (in my opinion) marginal
> sig?

The difference, Kevin may be that your .sig refers to "fish", a highly
demeaning term used against women. When you your "personal" reactions
to life like this, you are bound to offend many feminism-aware
women.

The .sig you seem to attack is not a "radical" feminist .sig, but rather
a quote that speaks a truth about feminism: that it is the natural
"curse" of women who desire equality to be "labeled" a feminist.

If West's quote offends you or seems to make you uncomfortable, perhaps
you should re-examine your views of women and gender equality. Perhaps
there is that little nugget of sexism still hiding away.

> Yes, I think that you ought to express your views, but
> not to a place that you backlash the people that have for so long
> supported financially or voluntarily that cause.

To quote West is not to backlash against anyone. It is to speak the truth.

> I just don't like to be
> included in the male, white supremacist group that is not inclusive of
> women.  I disassociate myself from it completely.

You can feel that you are not a patriarchal male, but as men, we both
have the lifelong responsibility of fighting the patriarchy. Simply
disassociating ourselves from it does nothing.

> I just don't think that I should have been pressured to alter my sig
> file if one above is permitted.  I am not asking the originator to alter
> her file, but I would also not ask the same be expressed of me!

Kev, your sig *was* offensive. To me, at least. It would be no different
that coming onto GayNet (as a heterosexual) with a quote about "fags".
This space is for women and men (and hopefully, more inclusive for
women than most of the InterNet and outside world). When you refer to
women as "fish", no matter how subtly, you are denigrating, silencing
and demeaning them.

The West quote is a quote of empowerment. Nowhere does it denigrate
anyone, or label.

>  Yes, they may be the victim BUT I AM NOT THE AGRESSOR!

But, if you refer to women as "fish"men, you are buying into the patriarchy
as much as any of these "other" men you speak of.

> Sorry Sarah.  Didn't do much good.  I still think that you need to
> consider BACKLASH.  It comes with every minority.  (Refer to sig file.)

Women are not a minorty. It just *seems* that way because of how we
(you and I both, Kevin) oppress them.

> tolerate the opinions of a radical feminist in her sig file.

Radical? Wanting your full rights is radical? Puh-lease! So, are you
a "radical" homosexual? Now, you're buying into pure Jesse-speak.

> Well, if all of you are going to be adamant
> about what is sacred in your sig files, then I should be given the same
> consideration and will, at my earliest convenience, put the reference to
> FISH back in.  For those of you who don't like FISH there are always
> chicken and beef!

We *all* need to continue to become more sensitive to others, especially
those people that we have traditionally oppressed in the past. If I
had a quote in my .sig file that offended people of color, it would be
responsibility to change it, and to consider how this could be so
offensive.

If you are going to put the line about fish back in, so be it.
But you will undoubtable lose the respect of many netters, myself
included.

Give up the fight. Take out the "fish" thing. Swallow your pride,
stop trying to "win this war" (what a male concept!) and be more
sensitive to the women on the net.
________________________________________________________________________
\    / JOEL BURTON % burton@umbc5.umbc.edu % U of MD Baltimore County
 \  /  I went to a "diversity" workshop for "student leaders" and I was
  \/   the only one who knew who Stephen Biko was. It was pathetic.

------------------------------

Date:         Tue, 28 Jul 92 15:57:41 EDT
From: Chris Brown <CBO@CORNELLC.cit.cornell.edu>
Subject:      Gay Deadheads

  I was just curious if there were any Deadheads on the net besides
myself.  I have found the Deadhead community to be one of the most
accepting and loving families that there is.  The last Dead show I went
to (Copps 3/21/92), one of the guys I was with was wearing a big pink
triangle on his coat.  He got lots of compliments and thumbs-up the
whole evening.  The other two guys wound up necking in the upper deck
during the second set, and no one gave them a second look.
  The thing is, I was the only one of us there who was a bonified
Deadhead.  I assume that more exist, but I've never really met one.
So if you're on the net, and you love the Grateful Dead, please drop
me a line.  Thanks.

==================================================================
Chris Brown : Cornell Information Technologies
"The future's here.  We are it, we are on our own"  -- John Barlow
==================================================================

------------------------------

Newsgroups: rpi.mail.gaynet
From: buckmr@rpi.edu (Ron Buckmire)
Subject: Re: G/L/B Student Organizations
Distribution: local
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 20:39:20 GMT
Apparently-To: rpi-mail-gaynet

jeff vanderwilt <jvanderw@darwin.cc.nd.edu> writes:

>ALSO:  The file in the QRD is really out of date! (Last revision in '91)
>       Is someone planning to do an update?
Well, perhaps Brian McConnell will update his list soon. I have also
been thinking of trying to compile a list this summer.


-
RON BUCKMIRE, 54 Colvin Circle, Troy, NY 12180-3735 ``D.C., April 25 1993''
uunet!rpi.edu!buckmr||buckmr@rpitsmts.bitnet||buckmr@rpi.edu||+1 518 276 8919
Repeat after me: "Mel Gibson is a Catholic Fundie from Hell!"
Repeat after me: "Mel Gibson is a Catholic Fundie from Hell!"

------------------------------

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