HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: topcat!tom@tredysvr.tredydev.unisys.com (Tom Albrecht)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Judaizers in Colossians
Date: 29 Sep 92 00:01:04 GMT
Organization: Applied Presuppositionalism, Ltd.

btiffany@pbs.org writes:

> You're just wasting your time, Harvey.  I explained all this in great detail
> to Tom a couple of years ago, at which point he claimed he'd never heard this
> before (of course not in a church that equates celebration of the Biblical
> feasts with "offering up strange fire to God"!), but he has heard it more
> than once since then.  ...

I've never heard it outside MJ circles, and since you didn't do a very
convincing job of explaining it (from the scriptures), I'd like to get
Harvey's perspective thank you.  Maybe even Bill or Donna.  Oh, I forgot,
she's boycotting me.

Regarding "strange fire," none of the MJs have never answered one, simple
question:  where specifically did God change His law to allow the
celebration of the Levitical feasts without the shedding of blood?

Bruce or Harvey or Bill, show us all where the Bible says that the MJ
version of Yom Kippur or Passover is a biblical celebration.  Show us how
the MJ version is any different than the rabbinic version, i.e., relying on
the traditions of men.  Anyone care to try?  Until you can, my comment
about "strange fire" (unsanctioned worship) stands.


--
Tom Albrecht
From: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (Robert A. Levene)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: (old) Question For Rob Levene
Date: 30 Sep 1992 22:06:27 -0500
Organization: Johns Hopkins University
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu


> RAL> Neither is opposition to Roe. v. Wade *THE* characteristic of the
> RAL> pro-life movement.

Bill Carlson>     No; but opposition to abortion is.

Opposition to abortion is the *effect* of their belief that
abortion is murder, and that murder is wrong.


> RAL> They oppose other abortion bills as well, it's just that Roe v.
> RAL> Wade is the best known, just as Jesus was one of the best known
> RAL> false messiahs (with regard to Judaism).
>
>     No; the pro-life movement is still shown to be a 'one issue', (by
>     and large), movement

However, that "one issue" is not Roe v. Wade, rather, the issue is
acting upon the principle that abortion is murder, and murder is
wrong.  


>   ...  Or are you saying that Rabbinic Judaism is
>     only concerned with the various aspects of 'false Messiahs'?!  I
>     don't think your line of reasoning on this is going to forward
>     your premise very well.  Following this to it's ultimate
>     conclusion, is going to end up painting Rabbinic Judaism as
>     nothing more than an "anti-type 'one issue' polemic"!

I'm not saying that at all.  I believe that most members of
pro-life groups live according to sets of principles from
which opposition to abortion is derived, not the other way around.


R
From: Bill.Carlson@p0.f18.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Bill Carlson)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: 7 Laws For Gentiles
Date: 1 Oct 92 02:10:03 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/18.0 - Midrash, Denver CO

To: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu

 RAL> Date: 30 Sep 92 16:28:57 GMT
 RAL> Organization: Johns Hopkins University
 RAL> Message-ID: <9209301628.AA16335@aplpy.jhuapl.edu>
 RAL> Newsgroups: alt.messianic
 
         -=> Quoting Robert A. Levene to Bill Carlson <=-
 > RAL> There are *two* ways to G-d:
 > RAL> 
 > RAL> 1.  For non-Jews - the seven Noachide laws
 > RAL> 2.  For Jews - Judaism 
 RAL> 
 RAL> Bill Carlson writes:
 
 >     Oh really?  So nu, - of the seven Mitzvot of the b'nai-Noachim,
 >     which are you exempt from?!

 RAL> Those two ways are compatible, in that the seven laws for 
 RAL> Gentiles are also part of Judaism.  Gentiles are exempt from 
 RAL> the specifics of Judaism.
 RAL> 
 RAL> Someone (Laura?) claimed that these two are really one way -
 RAL> following G-d's law.  That's a fair way to look at it.

     Ok, if you put it that way I don't have a problem with it.
     Seeing that all the folks up to and including Avram, from
     Noach on, kept them :-)  ...[and after too, as the Torah on
     Sinai was a progression in the 'revelation', not a negation.

... 012 Think not that I am come to annul the Torah or the Prophets: 210    
--  
Bill Carlson - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
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From: dwayne@blinker.NoSubdomain.NoDomain (Dwayne Muller)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Jewish Interpretation of Daniel 9:24-27??
Date: 2 Oct 92 16:40:21 GMT
Organization: Bellcore

Is there anyone who may be able to explain to me what the Conservative
and Orthodox interpretations are of Daniel 9:24-27.

I have been meeting to study the Bible with a Conservative Jew once a
week.  We are about to look at Daniel 9.  I would like an idea what to
expect from him.

Thanks for your help,

Dwayne
------
From: Harvey.Smith@p0.f1.n7002.z8.FIDONET.ORG (Harvey Smith)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Identification with Abra
Date: 25 Sep 92 04:37:26 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 8:7002/1.0


 TA=>Thank you, Harvey, for putting words in my mouth that I didn't 
 TA=>say.  I
No you didn't actually say that, but you alluded to it by your conversation 
of what a jew is or isn't...

 TA=>of this
 TA=>sort.  I asked an honest question about converts to Judaism since 
 TA=>the time
 TA=>of Christ (or is it your contention that there haven't been any), 
 TA=>and how
There have been as i posted the article on the Khazars.  However, from the 
6th century on there was little conversion going on as the Rabbis' were 
losing the race with Christianity, so they self imposed a exile of sorts on 
Judaism, and withdrew till this modern era, of doing conversions.

 TA=>they might relate to the words of Romans 11:25,26.  Donna D'Iorio 
 TA=>has
 TA=>indicated that Romans 11:25,26 is only for racial Jews, not 
 TA=>converts.  Do
 TA=>you agree or disagree with her understanding?

I would tend to disagree, however, the scripture is implicit that it is 
Israel that will be saved.  Those prosylytes who have joined Israel, raised 
jewish children etc, would for the most part be those who have married Jews.

To say that the hebrew race is pure, would also not be correct.  it is noted 
that Jews in Exile did in fact take many brides of the gentiles, and even 
took on some of their characteristics.  I remember when i was stationed in 
Hong Kong, and playing chess at the Jcca with Chinese looking Jews, that 
however, talked and acted like Jews because they were.  (grin).

Back in Bible days, the entire tribe of Benjamin was almost wiped out, they 
laid in wait for the gentile virgins to dance, killed their men and took the 
women for wives...

So to say that the Jewish race or the Hebrew race is pure, would not be 
correct.  However, when G-d speaks of Israel and the Jewish people He is 
speaking of those who are accounted for the seed...
 


--  
Harvey Smith - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
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From: Harvey.Smith@p0.f1.n7002.z8.FIDONET.ORG (Harvey Smith)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Gentile Christianityi
Date: 30 Sep 92 22:50:14 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 8:7002/1.0

To: Tom Albrecht..
>     Thank you for pointing this out, Tord.  I have been much less
> interested to discuss anything with Tom since reading here that Harvey
> and Bill have been talking to him for years.  This indicates to me that
> Tom is here for "sport"--some theological sparring.  ...

 TA=>No, I'm not here for sport.  I'm here to make a case for orthodox 
 TA=>(aka
 TA=>biblical) Christianity.  I find it offensive that MJs make sport 
 TA=>of
 TA=>"gentile Christianity" without direct reference to the word of 

Hey Hey, sport, i don't know of any MJ on this forum or any other that has 
made sport of biblical christianity.  I think you need a shrink.  Post one 
such quote, by an MJ.....

 TA=>it annoying that MJs hide behind a mask of legal purity 
 TA=>(obedience to the
 TA=>old covenant laws) without any discussions of how those laws have 
 TA=>been
 TA=>modified under the new covenant (see Ken Mann's questions).  I 

Again, Tom, Ken's questions were answered completely, and if he did not 
think so he should have questioned further....  we do not hide behind a mask 
of "legal purity", don't even know what that means.

I do know that no one will ever be vindicated by the works of their own 
hands, or the works of any law...  It is by grace through faith, that both 
Jews and gentiles are saved, "For by Grace are you saved", it is the Work of 
G-d Almighty and not us.... 

The same for what you call doctrinal purety,  That is in the hands of G-d, 
and if you judge you no longer are a recepient of G-d's grace, but become a 
judge or make yourself out to be a god...

 TA=>the convenient distortions of the Bible from MJ theology curious 
 TA=>and worth
 TA=>exploring.  If you want to talk about the Bible, we can do that.  

Since you have never found a distortion in our theology, only what you made 
up in your own imagination, of which we say, folks who talk to themselves 
are alright, but folks who both talk to themselves and answer themselves 
need help...

 TA=>want to rely on Harvey and Bill and Bruce instead of finding out 
 TA=>for
 TA=>yourself what I believe about the scritptures, you can do that 
 TA=>too.

I think they ought to rely on the Word of G-d as you should too.





 


--  
Harvey Smith - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
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Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: mjcaud01@ulkyvx.louisville.edu
Subject: Re: Jesus as Messiah, but not as God
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1992 05:37:31 GMT
Organization: University of Louisville

In article <rabjab.179.0@golem.ucsd.edu>, rabjab@golem.ucsd.edu (Jeff Bytof) writes:
> What are the theological problems with belief in Jesus as Messiah,
> but not as a diety?
> 
> Jeff Bytof
> rabjab@golem.ucsd.edu
There is no problem with this.
In fact many messianic jews do not believe in the trinity and do not believe
that Yeshua` is God, but still believe that Yeshua` is the Moshiach.
From: topcat!tom@tredysvr.tredydev.unisys.com (Tom Albrecht)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Gentile Christianityi
Date: 1 Oct 92 22:39:36 GMT
Organization: Applied Presuppositionalism, Ltd.

Donna.D'Iorio@f7022.n124.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Donna D'Iorio) writes:

>     This a letter from Constantine to all the churches following the
>     Council of Nicea.
> 
>     The tie to pagan holiday of fertility goddess, Astarte was for the
> reason that the masses already accepted the goddess and her holiday as
> legitimate, but did had ill-regard for the Jewish religion and holidays
> which Christianity shared.  The idea was to legitimize Christianity by
> sharing the accepted holidays with the pagans and putting off any ties
> to the Jewish roots.  It was more "expedient" for securing the
> acceptance of the masses for the new Church-State.

Donna,

Thanks for your comments.  Allow me to make a few observations.

1)  Constantine was not a church official.  He was not ordained to any
    ecclesiastical office.  Consequently, his statements, while politically
    interesting, are not all that useful theologically.

2)  The early church reacted mostly against the rabbinic tradtions that
    were developing within apostate Judaism.  Those rabbinic Jews were
    clearly abandoning the word of God in favor of their human traditions.
    In this sense the early Christian apologists were really no different
    in their attitude and actions than some of the MJs in this newsgroup
    towards the theology of rabbinic Jews.

3)  While there may be some pagan influences in the early church (just as
    their was pagan influence in ancient Israel under folks like Ahab), the
    original intent of Easter was not pagan, at least as far as the early
    elders and bishops were concerned.  There is no objective evidence to
    suggest that the early convert to Christianity were holding on to their
    pagan worship in large numbers.  In any event the early church did its
    best to rid itself of these influences.

4)  There is a sense in which is was necessary for the early church to
    "abandon its Jewish roots" in order to universalize the gospel for
    gentiles.  By "abandon its Jewish roots" I simply mean the necessity of
    putting off the old covenant (temporary) ordinances that expired with
    coming of Messiah (cf. Heb. 8:13).

--                       The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand,
Tom Albrecht             until I make thy enemies thy footstool.
                         The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of
                         Zion: rule thou in the midst of thy enemies.
                         Thy people [shall be] willing in the day of thy power,
                         in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the
                         morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth. (Ps. 110:1-3)
From: Bill.Carlson@p0.f18.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Bill Carlson)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: My Heritage
Date: 27 Sep 92 20:24:01 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/18.0 - Midrash, Denver CO


          -=> Quoting Robert A. Levene to Bill Carlson <=-
 RAL> From: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (Robert A. Levene)
 RAL> Date: 27 Sep 92 14:08:46 GMT
 RAL> Organization: Johns Hopkins University
 RAL> Message-ID: <9209170547.AA05636@aplpy.jhuapl.edu>
 RAL> Newsgroups: alt.messianic
 
 
 > RAL> Wrong, Bill.  The doctor performed the circumcision, not the
 > RAL> parents. Thus, the parents didn't circumcise the baby.
 >     Neither did they when the Mohel did.  They did however give, or
 >     instruct the doctor to preform the circumcision, therefore the
 >     doctor was acting in the parents behalf.

I had already received this post, and responded to it once.  Maybe it
just slipped into your re-send area?
    Anyway, there is a view I ran across in Rabbinic lit. that
    specificly disagrees with the other views you quoted, stating
    that a Jewish person doesn't have to go through anything again,
    (that an Orthodox Jewish fellow pointed out to my on FIDO Judaica
    Net, so I asked him for the exact quote - we shall see...), any
    way, that would not invalidate what you had posted earlier, just
    give a different perspective, so I'd like to see what he has to
    say.

... 012 Think not that I am come to annul the Torah or the Prophets: 210    
--  
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From: Bill.Carlson@p0.f18.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Bill Carlson)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Gentile Christianity Is False?
Date: 27 Sep 92 18:12:03 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/18.0 - Midrash, Denver CO


          -=> Quoting Harvey Smith to Bill Carlson <=-

 HS> To: Bill Carlson

 HS> Hummm, That there was a creation before Adam and this creation is
 HS> a matter aluded to in Ezek 28,...

 Yes, and a verse in Psalms, Zech., and an allusion in 1 Peter as well,
 (for those who hold this view), that HaShem does not create 'waste &
 wild/void and without form - tohu v'bohu; and the destruction in Zech.
 (but those who don't hold this "view" believe as being the flood in
 Noach's time); and the world that then was perished - some concluding
 that this phrase refers to a second, etc..., (all pharaphrased above,
 but I haven't looked at that viewpoint for a long time, and don't want
 to right now anyway :-)

 HS> this is not a doctrine nor is it taught within MJ circles that i
 HS> know of.

 That is correct, definately not a MJ "doctrine" that is officially
 taught.

 HS> I have been aware of this for many years and have done the
 HS> research that i am convinced that Lucifer did in fact rule a pre
 HS> creation... But its not important for one to either believe or
 HS> reject... (grin). 

 I used to believe that too; I see some things that don't align with
 that view very well though.  But I believe the olam ha-zeh was made
 by HaShem in 6 literal days, and the Shabbat He rested, (regardless of
 which view one takes :-)

 HS> As to Thiestic evolution, you are right, we would not in any way
 HS> uphold that theory.  We are believers in the G-d of Creation, and
 HS> that entails believing that He created heaven and earth and all
 HS> that is within in 6 days and rested on the seventh...  Some would
 HS> make the first day eons, and then commence with other 24 hr days
 HS> commencing with man, however, G-d's word is plain.  He created all
 HS> in 6 days, 6 24 hr periods, and rested on the 7th and hallowed it,
 HS> and we who are believers in the G-d of creation, keep the Sabbath
 HS> as a testimony to His Greatness..

 And to that I'll say Amaine.  Those who'd make the 1st day as longer,
 and use the excuse that the light came later, might ask themselves:
 what determines a 'day' beyond the light and dark, - even now?

... 012 And El*him said: Let Us make man in Our image, after Our... 210      
--  
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Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: ljmorly@polaris.utu.fi (Laura Johanna Manninen)
Subject: Re: Jesus as Messiah, but not as God
Organization: University of Turku
	<LJMORLY.92Sep30102750@polaris.utu.fi>
	<1992Oct1.031226.1302@serval.net.wsu.edu>
	<LJMORLY.92Oct4133130@polaris.utu.fi>
	<1992Oct4.201650.24688@serval.net.wsu.edu>
Date: 5 Oct 92 14:22:21

In article <1992Oct4.201650.24688@serval.net.wsu.edu> wvanweer@wsuaix.csc.wsu.edu (Wayne VanWeerthuizen) writes:
> In article <LJMORLY.92Oct4133130@polaris.utu.fi> ljmorly@polaris.utu.fi (Laura Johanna Manninen) writes:
> >Wayne, your translation is a fake. (I checked the given verses with the
> >original.) Something I'd like to comment on: the correct verb in Prov.
> >8:22 is 'possessed', not 'created'. If God wouldn't have had the Wisdom,
> >he couldn't have created anything.
> >
> ??? My "translation is a fake" ????   Huh?

> Give a single example of any mistranslation in the texts I quoted.

'El' can't be translated as 'Divine', even less 'Mighty'. And what was
that letter added to Zech. 12:10 ??? Vav, I guess, to 'elai', which
changes the meaning completely.

> With one exception, (Duet 6:4) They are all from either the NRSV, NIV
> or Charles Briggs book, "Messianic Prophecy".  Duet 6:4 can and should 
> be translated, "Yahveh is our God, only Yahveh."

NIV is OK, but the others ...
Deut. 6:4: Shma Israel Hashem Eloheinu Hashem echad. (Hear O Israel Ha-Shem
[is] our God(s) Ha-Shem is one [echad - implying composite unity]).

> -- 
> Wayne VanWeerthuizen | wvanweer@wsuaix.csc.wsu.edu | Christian, X-trinitarian
> 205 Scott Hall       | (509) 335-1835 (voice)      | Physics ugrad, 21yrs old
> Pullman, WA  99163   |    <<< Thank You Cards For Sale, $10.00 each >>>

- Laura
--
Rabbinic Judaism is a relationship with Rabbis,
Messianic Judaism is a relationship with the Messiah Yeshua.
From: Bill.Carlson@p0.f18.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Bill Carlson)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: (old) Question For Rob Levene
Date: 27 Sep 92 16:04:07 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/18.0 - Midrash, Denver CO

To: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu

              -=> Quoting Robert A. Levene in <=-
 RAL> Message-ID: <9209242056.AA26867@aplpy.jhuapl.edu>

 RAL> Neither is opposition to Roe. v. Wade *THE* characteristic of the
 RAL> pro-life movement.

     No; but opposition to abortion is.

 RAL> They oppose other abortion bills as well, it's just that Roe v.
 RAL> Wade is the best known, just as Jesus was one of the best known
 RAL> false messiahs (with regard to Judaism).

     No; the pro-life movement is still shown to be a 'one issue', (by
     and large), movement.  Or are you saying that Rabbinic Judaism is
     only concerned with the various aspects of 'false Messiahs'?!  I
     don't think your line of reasoning on this is going to forward
     your premise very well.  Following this to it's ultimate
     conclusion, is going to end up painting Rabbinic Judaism as
     nothing more than an "anti-type 'one issue' polemic"!

               -=> Quoting Robert A. Levene in <=-
 RAL> Message-ID: <9209251226.AA29878@aplpy.jhuapl.edu>

 RAL> I'm willing to call Paul incorrect in his Hebrews 9
 RAL> misunderstanding of Judaism, but incorrectly understanding
 RAL> something doesn't make one illiterate.

     You're willing to to call Sha'ul 'incorrect' on his understanding
     that the blood attonement of the Temple system was correct, while
     writing in the 1st century, when the Temple stood, - and that was
     the given understanding? - When the idea of 'Mitzvot and prayer'
     replacing the Sacrifices came as a much later invention of the
     Rabbinim?!  Ok, go for it; it only strengthens our stance for you
     to hold to that notion. :-)

 RAL> Does Christianity accept the principle that one can be consistent
 RAL> and sincere while believing incorrect ideas?
 
     Sure.  We think that of many Rabbinic Jews :-)

 RAL> There are *two* ways to G-d:
 RAL> 
 RAL> 1.  For non-Jews - the seven Noachide laws
 RAL> 2.  For Jews - Judaism 

     Oh really?  So nu, - of the seven Mitzvot of the b'nai-Noachim,
     which are you exempt from?!

... 012 But, woe unto the house that the turnip enters :-) 210  
--  
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From: btiffany@pbs.org
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Fall Schedule
Date: 25 Sep 92 12:40:15 EDT
Organization: PBS:Public Broadcasting Service, Alexandria, VA

Here is a schedule events (really only the major seasonal ones, not the
regular weekday ones) for El Shaddai Congregation in Frederick, Maryland.
Call (301) 695-4496 for more information or directions.

Sunday, September 27	Yom Teruah at Gambrill State Park, 18:00 to 19:15
			Celebration/blowing shofar, nosh afterwards with
			traditional foods.

Saturday, October 3	Shabbat Worship 10:00 to noon

Sunday, October 4	Frederick Life Chain 15:00 to 16:00
			As last year, we'll be participating with many other
			congregations in the Life Chain.  Our congregation
			will meet at the corner of Willowdale Drive and
			Route 40 for our section of the chain.

Tuesday, October 6	Yom Kippur service, 19:30 - 20:30

Wednesday, October 7	Yom Kippur prayer; break fast 18:00 to 19:30

Saturday, October 10	Shabbat worship 10:00 to noon

Saturday, October 17	Sukkot '92 intercongregational celebrate for Tikkun
			and related congregations (and their guests*), at
			Evangel Church's new building, 13901 Central Avenue,
			Upper Marlboro, Maryland.
			Registration begins at noon, and the celebration
			normally lasts into the night.  You should make a
			reservation in advance.  Call the sponsoring
			congregation Beth Messiah at (301) 977-0156 for
			details.

			*If you'd like to come, consider yourself my guest.
			As last year, I extend the invitation to Tom Albrecht
			to come help us offer up strange fire!  :-)  (Hope
			you can take a little ribbing!)  Seriously, Tom,
			you're welcome to come.

Saturday, October 24	Simchat Torah service, 10:00 - noon

The other Tikkun congregations in our area will of course be featuring their
own services to celebrate the Biblical feasts.  They are Shulchan Adonai in
Annapolis; Beth Messiah in Rockville; Rosh Pina in Baltimore (Owens Mills,
I think); Tikvat Yisrael in Richmond, Virginia (not to be confused with
Bruce Benning's congregation of the same name in Cleveland, Ohio, also
loosely associated with us, but obviously not local); Ahavat Yeshua in
Washington, DC; and Ohev Yisrael in Burke, Virginia.

All of the services are, of course, free.  However, the Sukkot '92 celebration
is not (and if you don't pre-register, it's $5 more at the door, assuming
there is still space to get in): the charge is $8, or $12 for a couple, or
$15 for a family to help defray the cost of renting the huge building.

-- BT
Newsgroups: alt.messianic