From: cmk@athena.mit.edu (Charles M Kozierok)
Subject: Re: Death of America
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 02:01:33 GMT

In article <1992Dec12.234414.3880@news.columbia.edu> gld@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Gary L Dare) writes:
>cmk@athena.mit.edu (Charles M Kozierok) writes:
>>
>>anyone who thinks there is no way they can be taxed much worse than they
>>are now, you are wrong. ontario has 15% sales tax. the marginal income
>>tax rate is over 50%. and people just don't give a damn (oh they do,
>>but they don't do anything about it). canada has a debt problem even
>>worse than the US's, and they don't have to spend a huge chunk of
>>their budget on the military. the price of gasoline is over 50% 
>>built-in tax. people don't even pay attention to it any more.
>
>Just to add a few more things ... Ontario's provincial tax rate is
>7.5%, but there is an additional 7.5% federal VAT called the Goods
>And Services Tax (GST).  It replaces a previously hidden wholesale
>tax.  People now see it, and complain.  This taking advantage of
>people's inability to count has been spurred on by the Canadian
>Left, and it seems to be working in many quarters ...

first of all, just for accuracy, it is 8% provincial sales tax in ontario
(goods only, mostly, but including such things as restaurant meals)
and 7% GST (on almost everything, but excluding certain essentials
such as groceries). 

second, the "replaces a previously hidden wholesale tax" is somewhere
between an exaggeration and fraud by the federal govt. it does replace
a wholesale tax, but that tax was on very few items (though they
were big ticket items; some things like cars went down in price
by a small amount when the switch occurred). the reason it is a lie
is the "S" part of "GST", which has *nothing* to do with a wholesale
tax. canadians pay tax on the following services: haircuts; dental services;
car repairs; green fees; computer services (i was in this industry --
it has taken a major hit from this combined with the recession), and
just about everything else.

btw, i don't know the exact number, but i believe in ontario the total
taxes on a litre of gasoline is about 30 cents. that's about C$1.14
per US gallon folks.

>
>Without any means of verification, most Americans would have to take
>at face values claims that the GST (our federal Value Added Tax) was
>put in to pay for wild health care spending rather than a rewrite of
>the existing tax structure.  (The math doesn't work out anyways, as we
>spend 3/4ths of the GDP fraction that the Americans do.)  I could tell
>them it was due to a bad maple syrup harvest, for all they'd know. )-;

the GST has nothing to do with health care costs whatever. for one
thing, health care is handled at the provincial level and the GST is
federal.

>
>Another thing that I have to warn Charles about is that Canadian
>income tax rates include provincial taxes (only Quebec collects its
>own provincial tax like U.S. states do) and I've always seen those
>rates compared against the American federal rate ... add on state
>taxes in many states and it starts to hit or exceed Canadian rates.

not even close. i live in taxachusetts, and there's still no comparison.
and there are many states which have no income tax.

>
>>you think america's manufacturing base has eroded? in the past few
>>years, canada has seen its productivity go down and its labor costs
>>go up, compared even to the US. *not* compared to japan or the world
>>average. i heard an estimate that ontario has lost over 20% of its
>>manufacturing jobs just in the past two years. that's ok, they're
>>going to a "service economy". right.  sound familiar?
>
>On the other hand, a wealthy nation ought to be able to compete in
>terms of infrastructure ... educated populace, facilities, lack of
>public liabilities (with universal health insurance, not even our
>welfare bums get so sick as to ring up multi-million dollar tabs at
>our hospitals -- they get fixed up early, so they can either work or
>get cut off).

classic socialist gobbledy-gook.
it doesn't work because there is no incentive for people to do other
than grab all they can grab. there's no need to work because you
get health insurance even if you don't. there's no need to do
more than the minimum required to guarantee this year's unemployment
benefits. and your comments about "getting fixed up early" make
no sense -- if they weren't working before, why would they suddenly
start working after they were fixed up?

also, who is supposed to pay for building the infrastructure? how are
they supposed to pay for it?

>Our cultural and historical low productivity and risk
>aversion (if you've had any contact with conventional Canadian
>business --- I'm not talking about Northern Telecom or any of our
>stars here --- you know what I mean) is being addresses as we're being
>forced into the realities of a global economy ... or check out of it.

i don't believe much of the above. from what i have seen, 
canadian business and those of canadians who choose to be producers
are every bit as good as their american counterparts. in fact, in some
ways they have to be better, because they have to carry canada's socialist
burden on their shoulders in their attempt to compete with american
companies.

>The educated populace and investment in facilities is being noticed as
>the country restructures (after all you've written, please don't turn
>around and say you're against free trade!), with upgrades at Amdahl
>and IBM Research in Toronto, DuPont in Kingston, etc. -- real jobs in
>white collar, intellectual capital areas that have long suffered up
>north.  If you go along with the general domestic complaining, you
>are arguing for more chicken-cutting jobs for our university grads.

you really think things are turning around up there? i don't believe
it for a minute. a couple of companies doesn't make much difference.

i'm not sure what you mean about chicken-cutting jobs. i am talking
about manufacturing. canada's manufacturing base is being destroyed.
as it goes, it will be replaced with services. the problem
with services is that they cannot be exported. and without exports,
a country cannot develop wealth.

--
charles
Newsgroups: talk.politics.theory,talk.politics.misc