HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: avlb@aplcomm.jhuapl.edu (A V Louis Biggie)
Subject: Re: Habemus ad dominum
Reply-To: avlb@aplcomm.jhuapl.edu (A V Louis Biggie)
Organization: JHU/Applied Physics Laboratory
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 19:15:39 GMT

In article <aardvark-200892110652@146.154.24.90>, aardvark@ial1.jsc.nasa.gov 
(Michael Martin) writes:
> Path: 
> 
> 
> William M. Porter's reply (all of which I agreed with except for the
> following);
> 
> > As for "Agnus Dei", I think the answer must be that this is
> > medieval/ecclesiastical Latin and simply doesn't follow the classical 
rule for
> > vocatives in the second declension.
> 
> There are plenty examples of the usage of the vocative endings in
> Ecclesiastical Latin, so I do not think that the above explanation is
> tenable. For example, later on in the Liturgy we have; 'Domine, non dignus
> sum...'.
> 
> Actualy, I would propose a much simpler and more 'classical' explanation.
> The Romans, being the terse people they were, often dropped the verb from
> their sentances. Angus being nominative requires it to be a subject. If we
> supply the missing verb 'to be' we arrive at;
> 
> Angus Dei, qui tollis peccata mundi.....
> 
> You are the Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world...
> 
But the main verb is not missing - it's the imperative, "dona."  The full 
sentence is "Agnus dei, qui tollis peccata mundi, dona nobis pacem."

Regards,

Louis


Newsgroups: sci.classics
From: enzo@research.canon.oz.au (Enzo Liguori)
Subject: Greek Classics on CD ROM
Organization: Canon Information Systems Research Australia
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 22:34:08 GMT

Sorry if it has been said already, but I missed it.
Aren't any CD ROMs of greek classics (not scripts) around?
How much do they cost and how to order them?
Thanks in advance.

      Enzo

Enzo Liguori - Canon Information Systems Research Australia
Newsgroups: sci.classics
From: wmporter@jetson.uh.edu (Porter, William M.)
Subject: Re: Catilinarians out of print?
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: University of Houston
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 07:40:00 GMT

My thanks to Bob Cape for his reply to my posting about the speeches In
Catilinam. I was unaware of the edition-in-progress by R. Thomas; I'll watch
for it in the future. I'm glad to hear that the new Loeb's historical notes are
good. I know the Gould & Whitely book, but I very much want my students to read
selections for speeches 3 and 4, not just from 1 and 2. The Bristol Press
edition is not yet available, I'm told. I'll probably end up photocopying a
little from here and a little from there. Even our advanced students will find
the grammatical notes in my ancient Allen & Greenough edition useful, and I
feel certain that is out of copyright. Thanks again.

William Porter  * * * Classical Languages: University of Houston
Internet: wmporter@jetson.uh.edu /or/ CompuServe: 75430,1351

Newsgroups: sci.classics
From: alderson@elaine46.Stanford.EDU (Rich Alderson)
Subject: Re: greek classics on CD-ROM, ftp ???
Originator: alderson@leland.Stanford.EDU
Reply-To: alderson@elaine46.Stanford.EDU (Rich Alderson)
Organization: Stanford University Academic Information Resources
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 92 02:12:23 GMT

In article <1683F12F15.JAREA@UKCC.UKY.EDU>, JAREA@UKCC writes:
>In article <1992Aug9.190345.14568@leland.Stanford.EDU>
>alderson@elaine46.Stanford.EDU (Rich Alderson) writes:
>>I think you are talking about the _Thesaurus Linguae Graecae_
	[edited for bandwidth]

>You seem to have misread the chap's question.  He wasn't interested in texts,
>but in scripts.  One presumes the West Greek as well as the better known
>Attic, and of cours the Cypriote and Minoan Linear B, etc., as well as some of
>the earlier stuff including that written boustrophedon, etc, as well as the
>hands used for writing on papyrus versus inscriptional alphabets, and some of
>the later Byzantine scripts, since he mentioned scripts up to the twelfth
>century.
> 
>Littera scripta manet.

You're right, of course, he did ask about scripts.  Now *I'm* curious.  Did
anyone collect such things for on-line/WP use?
-- 
Rich Alderson   'I wish life was not so short,' he thought.  'Languages take
                such a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about.'
                                                        --J. R. R. Tolkien,
alderson@leland.stanford.edu                              _The Lost Road_
From: aardvark@ial1.jsc.nasa.gov (Michael Martin)
Newsgroups: sci.classics
Subject: Re: Habemus ad dominum
Date: 21 Aug 92 20:22:35 GMT
Followup-To: sci.classics
Organization: Nullus

In article <1992Aug20.204641.9103@beaver.cs.washington.edu>,
louns@cs.washington.edu (Michael Lounsbery) wrote:
> 
> Undoubtedly related to all this is the phrase from the Gloria:
> 
> "Domine Fili unigenite, Iesu Christe, Domine Deus, Agnus Dei, Filius Patris,
>  qui tollis peccata mundi, miserere nobis"
> 
> Here we have a string of vocatives (starting with Domine) followed by what
> look like nominatives (Agnus and Filius).  Since the passage uses Fili as
> nominative, we can be certain that Filius is not a vocative.  The Agnus,
> falling uncertainly between a clear vocative and a clear nominative, could
> go either way.


The problem is also a bit more interesting when you consider both pieces,
the Gloria (Doxologia Maior) and the Angus Dei, were written before
punctuation standards. The Gloria has been part of the western liturgy
since the 5th century, the Angus Dei, the 7th. I am not certain when the
Angus Dei was composed, but it was early. I do know the Gloria was arround
in the 2nd century. I mention this because different Missals/texts
punctuate it differently. The above is the current standard I find in
modern missals, but I have also seen it in a much older missal (Tridentine)
as;

Domine Deus, Rex Caelestis, Deus Pater omnipotens. Domine Fili unigenite,
Iesu Christe, Domine Deus, Agnus Dei, Filius Patris. Qui tollis peccata
mundi, miserere nobis.

Besides punctation variances, Latin has been know to have some horrendous
(by modern English standrds) compound/run on sentances. Using the
Nominative with an imperative later on may just be such a case. In any
event, depending upon what one choses for punctuation, it is possible that
my original hyposthesis of the missing verb is correct (or at least not
totally out to lunch), or that more likely, as several other posts have
noted, the switch from the vocative to the nominative was a
literary/grammatical device. Considering the early dates of compostion, I
doubt it is a corruption due to Medieval influences.

Mike Martin
aardvark@ial3.jsc.nasa.gov
Newsgroups: sci.classics
From: wmporter@jetson.uh.edu (William M. Porter)
Subject: Re: Habemus ad dominum
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: University of Houston
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1992 10:33:00 GMT

Bob Ingria (ingria@BBN.COM) suggests that "agnus" may be "attracted" nominative
case to go with the relative pronoun. Not possible. When an antecedent is drawn
into the relative clause, it almost always follows the relative adjective that
modifies it (so we should have "qui agnus" rather than "agnus qui").
Furthermore, this only occurs when the noun so attracted is governed by some
other word in the surrounding clause, e.g. "legistine quos libros misi?" (for
"Did you read the books that I sent?")

William Porter  * * * Classical Languages: University of Houston
Internet: wmporter@jetson.uh.edu /or/ CompuServe: 75430,1351

Newsgroups: sci.classics
From: louns@cs.washington.edu (Michael Lounsbery)
Subject: Re: Habemus ad dominum
Keywords: Ecclesiastical Latin
Organization: Computer Science & Engineering, U. of Washington, Seattle
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 92 20:46:41 GMT

Undoubtedly related to all this is the phrase from the Gloria:

"Domine Fili unigenite, Iesu Christe, Domine Deus, Agnus Dei, Filius Patris,
 qui tollis peccata mundi, miserere nobis"

Here we have a string of vocatives (starting with Domine) followed by what
look like nominatives (Agnus and Filius).  Since the passage uses Fili as
nominative, we can be certain that Filius is not a vocative.  The Agnus,
falling uncertainly between a clear vocative and a clear nominative, could
go either way.

I would guess that there is an implicit "to be" phrase, but it's unclear where:

... Domine Deus, [qui es] Agnus Dei [et] Filius Patris...
			or
... Domine Deus, Agnus Dei, [qui es] Filius Patris...

Michael Lounsbery
louns@cs.washington.edu
From: aardvark@ial1.jsc.nasa.gov (Michael Martin)
Newsgroups: sci.classics
Subject: Re: Verbum Domini (was: Habemus ad dominum)
Date: 21 Aug 92 19:59:17 GMT
Followup-To: sci.classics
Organization: Nullus

In article <BtC9nt.4B9@netnews.jhuapl.edu>, collins@netnews.jhuapl.edu
(Skip Collins) wrote:
> This recent trend to render 'Verbum Domini' as 'The Word of the Lord'
> has annoyed me from the first time I heard it. Leaving
> out the verb 'to be' in this context in English seems an 
> unjustified change in the ICEL translation. The remarkable speed
> with which this alteration has spread leads me to suspect that some bishops'
> committee made a recommendation for the change. Or some liturgist with
> a bee in her bonnet proseletized like hell. I cannot even guess what ills
> this is supposed to cure.

This was recently approved by the US Bishops (like in the last month or
so). The Diocesan liturgucal newsletter says the reason was to make the
translation 'closer' to the Latin and to make it more consistent with other
foreign language translations of the Mass.

I can't say as I care strongly one way or the other. Since I already know
the Latin basis for the phrase, I already know the meaning of the phrase.
However, from a purely technical standpoint, I think the former translation
conveyed the meaning much better. English sentances/phrase without a verb
are odd balls.

I suspect it just goes to show you what can happen when a liturgist has too
much time on his or her hands :-).


Mike Martin
ardvark@ial3.jsc.nasa.gov
From: aardvark@ial1.jsc.nasa.gov (Michael Martin)
Newsgroups: sci.classics
Subject: Re: Habemus ad dominum
Date: 20 Aug 1992 16:24:48 GMT
Followup-To: sci.classics
Organization: Nullus

In article <19AUG199214061798@jetson.uh.edu>, wmporter@jetson.uh.edu
(William M. Porter) wrote:
> 
> In article <Bt8qo2.2F1@netnews.jhuapl.edu>, avlb@aplcomm.jhuapl.edu (A V Louis Biggie) writes...

[deleted lines]
>>...Also, why "Agnus dei" and not "Agne Dei" - shouldn't it 
> >be vocative?
> 

William M. Porter's reply (all of which I agreed with except for the
following);

> As for "Agnus Dei", I think the answer must be that this is
> medieval/ecclesiastical Latin and simply doesn't follow the classical rule for
> vocatives in the second declension.

There are plenty examples of the usage of the vocative endings in
Ecclesiastical Latin, so I do not think that the above explanation is
tenable. For example, later on in the Liturgy we have; 'Domine, non dignus
sum...'.

Actualy, I would propose a much simpler and more 'classical' explanation.
The Romans, being the terse people they were, often dropped the verb from
their sentances. Angus being nominative requires it to be a subject. If we
supply the missing verb 'to be' we arrive at;

Angus Dei, qui tollis peccata mundi.....

You are the Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world...


Which seems to make good sense in both languages. There are plenty of other
examples of the missing 'to be' in the Liturgy. The phrase, 'Verbum
Domini', after the readings is an example. This, until recently, was
rendered in English as 'This is the Word of the Lord'.

Mike Martin
aardvark@ial3.jsc.nasa.gov
Newsgroups: sci.classics
From: ibacon@uniwa.uwa.edu.au (Ian Bacon)
Subject: Classical astronomy
Organization: University of Western Australia
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1992 02:07:41 GMT

My masters topic is the Roman astrologer Marcus Manilius. I am having
difficulty finding the works of his near contemporary
astronomers/astrologers, eg Geminus & Ptolemy. Does anyone know of a
library that has a range of texts of ancient astronomers?

Thank you in advance.
From: ara@zurich.ai.mit.edu (Allan Adler)
Newsgroups: sci.classics
Subject: quotation wanted, with source
Date: 13 Aug 92 23:44:52 GMT
Distribution: sci
Organization: M.I.T. Artificial Intelligence Lab.


A long time ago, a friend of mine quoted something to me in Latin that I
think he attributed to Horace. It meant, "Everyone thinks his own feces
smell good." I have been unable to track this down. Does someone have
the Latin quote and a reference for it?

Allan Adler
ara@altdorf.ai.mit.edu
From: andrew@rentec.com (Andrew Mullhaupt)
Newsgroups: sci.classics
Subject: Re: Classical astronomy
Date: 17 Aug 92 15:06:28 GMT
Organization: Renaissance Technologies Corp., Setauket, NY.

In article <1992Aug15.020741.22141@uniwa.uwa.edu.au> ibacon@uniwa.uwa.edu.au (Ian Bacon) writes:
>My masters topic is the Roman astrologer Marcus Manilius. I am having
>difficulty finding the works of his near contemporary
>astronomers/astrologers, eg Geminus & Ptolemy. Does anyone know of a
>library that has a range of texts of ancient astronomers?

You might find it useful to consult the extensive work of O. Neugebauer on
Ptolemy. He has a substantial stuff on Ptolemy which has a lot of references.

I don't recall if he discusses the actual location of rare texts, but he
certainly gives you the lay of the land.

Later,
Andrew Mullhaupt
Newsgroups: sci.classics
From: wmporter@jetson.uh.edu (William M. Porter)
Subject: Re: Habemus ad dominum
Followup-To: sci.classics
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: University of Houston
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1992 10:26:00 GMT

In a comment on my tentative explanation of why "agnus dei" is not "agne dei",
aardvark@ial1.jsc.nasa.gov (Michael Martin) writes...

  >There are plenty examples of the usage of the vocative endings in
  >Ecclesiastical Latin, so I do not think that the above explanation is
  >tenable. For example, later on in the Liturgy we have; 'Domine, non dignus
  >sum...'.

Argument by analogy, even within the text of the Mass itself, is not
necessarily compelling, as the Latin sources of the Mass are various. It is
possible--and somebody knows (not I)--that the "agnus dei" phrase is Vetus
Latina text.

  >The Romans, being the terse people they were, often dropped the verb from
  >their sentances. Angus being nominative requires it to be a subject. If we
  >supply the missing verb 'to be' we arrive at:

  >Angus Dei, qui tollis peccata mundi.....
  >You are the Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world... 

  >Which seems to make good sense in both languages. There are plenty of other
  >examples of the missing 'to be' in the Liturgy. The phrase, 'Verbum  
  >Domini', after the readings is an example. This, until recently, was 
  >rendered in English as 'This is the Word of the Lord'.

Not possible, I think. Omission of the copula with a second person verb is
uncommon in classical and I think medieval Latin both, as the chance of
ambiguity is increased here. The phrase "agnus Dei" seems quite clearly and
naturally a vocative set-up for the imperatives that follow: "miserere nobis"
and "dona nobis pacem."

William Porter  * * * Classical Languages: University of Houston
Internet: wmporter@jetson.uh.edu

Newsgroups: sci.energy
From: tomj@monster.saic.com (Tom Johnson)
Subject: Re: Power CoGeneration ... Lets start over.
Reply-To: tomj@monster.saic.com (Tom Johnson)
Organization: SAIC, McLean, VA
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 92 19:28:51 GMT

In article <1527@hsvaic.boeing.com> eder@hsvaic.boeing.com (Dani Eder) writes:
>patter@dasher.uucp (24224-guthrie) writes:
>
>>It follows that it's cheaper to fire up what is essentially a big car
>>engine to create the electricity to charge up a car than it would be to
>>use that same engine to drive the car in the first place. This seems to
>>fly in the face of conventional physics. One can only assume that there's
>>a flaw in either your figures or in those of the electric car proponents.
>
>There is no problem with this if the product of
>
>(efficiency diesel fuel--> electricity)*(efficiency electricity -->
>car motive force)  
>
>is greater than
>
>(efficiency gasoline --> car motive force )
>
>
>Electric motors are much more efficient than automobile engines, and
>power plants use the heat generated by burning fuel fairly efficiently
>(about 40%).  
>

There's also no energy wasted idling an electric motor, since they don't
idle.  Depending on your driving habits, this could make a BIG difference.


Newsgroups: sci.energy
From: burris@epcot.spdc.ti.com (Jim Burris)
Subject: Re: stuff...
Organization: TI Semiconductor Process and Design Center
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 18:11:34 GMT

In article <Bstnwr.8Et@fmsrl7.srl.ford.com> wreck@fmsrl7.srl.ford.com (R. Cage) writes:
>In article <1992Aug11.105759.4430@mr.med.ge.com> hinz@bonfire (David Hinz Mfg 4-6987) writes:
>>What puzzles me is this:  Why are we using petrol from obviously unstable
>>sources, when, with little modification, our existing fleet could use
>>ethanol?
>
>3.)  The energy lost in making ethanol from corn is immense; more
>     fossil fuel goes in (as diesel fuel and agricultural chemicals,
>     plus methane to make fertilizer) than comes out as ethanol.  
>
>6.)  If memory serves, total US agricultural production isn't
>     sufficient to supply our oil consumption.  Plants aren't
>     efficient enough at converting light to chemical energy.
>-- 
>Russ Cage   wreck@fmsrl7.srl.ford.com  russ%rsi.uucp@destroyer.rs.itd.umich.edu
>  *  When Ford pays me for my opinions, THEN they can call them theirs. *

   If ethanol production is part of an integrated system of food/feed/fuel/etc.
production, does it become more feasible/less expensive? Also, is ethanol
cleaner burning than gasoline/methanol/whatever? Inquiring minds, you know.

Jim Burris
From: gary@ke4zv.uucp (Gary Coffman)
Newsgroups: sci.energy
Subject: Re: Air conditioning not a luxury....
Date: 13 Aug 92 23:41:34 GMT
Reply-To: gary@ke4zv.UUCP (Gary Coffman)
Organization: Gannett Technologies Group

In article <14197@mindlink.bc.ca> Nick_Janow@mindlink.bc.ca (Nick Janow) writes:
>wreck@fmsrl7.srl.ford.com (R. Cage) writes:
>
>> If I can ever get my waste-energy recovery idea implemented, A/C will come
>> for free with it and require no additional fuel (and no ozone-eaters or
>> greenhouse gases at all).
>
>Is that something along the lines of the old ammonia refrigerators?  Hmm, if
>the A/C unit was suitably isolated from the passenger compartment, ammonia
>might be a safe refrigerant to use.  It's something you wouldn't want to leak
>in a sealed house, but outside...?

Hey! I've had an ammonia refrigerator in the house for 40 years. If it
leaks you open a window. Big deal. It's not like it's pure anhydrous
sprayed in your face. 

Gary
Newsgroups: sci.energy
From: nrd@redwood.cray.com (Neal Dalton)
Subject: Re: stuff...
Originator: nrd@redwood
Reply-To: nrd@cray.com
Organization: Cray Research, inc.
Date: 16 Aug 92 15:53:55 CDT


In article <1992Aug16.171906.2882@usenet.ins.cwru.edu>, bl713@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Lev Tarasov) writes:
> 
> As to methanol versus ethanol, I got a bit sloppy, tree-based
> bio-fuels are methanol, while the switchgrass would be used for
> ethanol production.       

Methanol can be produced cheaply from methane.  Sources of methane can
be Natural Gas or anaerobic digestion of organic material.

--
Neal  /\    /   _     /   \|||/                   Neal Dalton
     /  \  / _  _\   /   /     \                  Cray Research, inc
    /    \/_</_(_/\_/   (  o o  )                 655-F Lone Oak Dr.
                         \  ^  /                  Eagan, MN 55121
                          \ 0 /                 
Internet: nrd@cray.com     \_/                    Fax:   (612) 683-5599
    uucp: uunet!cray!nrd                          Phone: (612) 683-5607
Newsgroups: sci.energy
From: ledwards@leland.Stanford.EDU (Laurence James Edwards)
Subject: Re: Nature's Revenge (toll booths vs. cars)
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 92 01:39:28 GMT

In article <1992Aug14.225153.15636@usenet.ins.cwru.edu>, bg055@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Stewart Rowe) writes:
|> 
|> It can be done better, with cards showing entry point and tolls
|> collected only upon exit. It IS being done better elsewhere.
|>  -Stewart Rowe usr2210a@tso.uc.edu  srowe@igc.org

Yes, it is being done better ... the New Jersey Turnpike for example, perhaps
the best maintained stretch of super-highway in the country. You take a card
on entry and pay on exit.

While tolls are the only "fair" way (i.e. no subsidies) to pay for the
construction and maintenance of roads I'd personally rather just pay taxes
and subsidize the roads I don't frequently travel. It's less 
hassle and (theoretically at least) one should have more consistent
road quality. By that I mean even the less well traveled roads are
still maintained. But then, paying taxes doesn't really bother me as
long as everyone else is also paying, and as long as it is not just going
towards making politicians and their friends wealthy.

Larry Edwards
edwards@sunrise.stanford.edu
From: Tom Gray <tgray@igc.apc.org>
Newsgroups: sci.energy
Date: 18 Aug 92 09:28 PDT
Subject: Solar Thermal Electricity
Nf-ID: #N:cdp:1466300076:000:2480
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!tgray    Aug 18 09:28:00 1992


From: Tom Gray <tgray>
Subject: Solar Thermal Electricity

/* Written  4:49 pm  Aug 17, 1992 by pki in cdp:en.energy */
/* ---------- "Solar Thermal Electricity" ---------- */

To those seeking clean energy solutions:  Power Kinetics needs
help developing solar thermal markets and defining energy products
using our fixed focus solar furnaces. We would like to
pre-engineer small, single engine, electric generating systems but
will welcome an opportunity to look at large central solar systems
which have the blessing of the local community and their electric
utility. We are trying to develop regional solar solutions within
five years by building a local job base which harvests clean
enrgy.  Our lowest first cost approach aims at testing small
engines which already exist which can be packaged commercially in
the next five years. A small system (5kWe) could power the needs
of a large dwelling and provide electricity at about 12" per
kilowatt-hour (kWh). A 25 kWe system could possibly produce
electricity at 7"/kWh and a larger 60 kWe system, electricity at
under 5". In all systems, rejected heat from making electricity is
available for a variety of uses - domestic hot water, clothes
drying, and space heating, to name a few.  Sandia National
Laboratories, Albuquerque has released a Request for Quotation for
a "Utility Scale Solar Thermal Electric Power Plant." Up to a 50%
cost share can be provided under an appropriate solar
commercialization initiative. Our efforts use our 5th generation
concentrator with built-in thermal storage.  Storage development
is the most risky element of our program but will benefit from
external funding should Sandia share the costs of our development
efforts. Using our 4th generation technology could reduce project
risks still further.  Our response to the Sandia program will be
made by September 25, 1992. In order to develop equipment which
meets or exceeds the requirements of potential users, we would
like to work with utilities or customers who can benefit from new
solar thermal technology. Engineering time provided by utilities
and customers to understand and strengthen our program should
qualify as a cost share which we can apply to the adopting region
to develop the infrastructure for continued market growth. We are
actively seeking groups to work with us. An Executive Summary of
our program is available upon request. Please call at 518-271-7743
or fax us at 517-271-0782 if you wish to know more.  Bob Rogers

From: curry@hplred.HP.COM (Bo Curry)
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 20:54:06 GMT
Subject: Re: Air conditioning not a luxury....
Organization: Hewlett Packard Labs, Palo Alto CA