HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: rmarsh@waikato.ac.nz
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
Subject: Re: Combat system for frp
Date: 19 Aug 92 23:43:32 +1200
Followup-To: rec.games.design
Organization: University of Waikato, Hamilton, New Zealand

In article <Bt77sA.21o@rice.edu>, tomscud@ruf.rice.edu (Thomas Reid Scudder) writes:
> 
> 	I've been putting in some work on designing a diceless combat system 
> for a frp.  The basic idea of the system is that the two attackers pick their 
> attacks and defenses, and then the comparison between the two determines who 
> hits and who doesn't.  
[...]
> 	3 different attack areas, 2 different attack types-- hi mid low, swing 
>            stab
[...]

These and a few other things in the post reminded me of an old book combat
system called [if my memory will provide me with the name... Lost Worlds!].
What you are suggesting seems to be an attempt at a general version of the
Lost Worlds books concept. All the books used the same page numbers for the
same (or similar) attacks, each player chooses an action (Sideswing
high/Jump back/Thrust low/Downswing Bash etc.) and depending on the chosen
actions one or other, or neither or both combatants get hurt. Some
characters have armour which means they take less damage at those locations
when hit, others have damage bonuses and penalties to some attack forms (eg
a longsword might get +3 on thrust high/low where a club wielder gets -2).
  The books were fairly specific - "Man in chain with sword and shield",
"Woman with Quarterstaff", "Dwarf in Chain with two-handed axe" etc., but
the concept could be generalised. It even has a rudimentary experience
system.
  The bad news... while I've been writing this post I've been trying to
remember who published the things and it's totally slipped my mind. I think
they may be out of print now, but if you want to go on with this project
I'd try to get hold of at least a couple of them.
-- 
Robert 'Stumpy' Marsh | 95 Fairfield Rd | I can't reply to E-Mail, but 
rmarsh@waikato.ac.nz  | Hamilton        | don't let that stop you sending.
+64 7 855 4406        | New Zealand     |
From: jpg@bnr.co.uk (Jonathan P. Gibbons)
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
Subject: Re: The ultimate weapon
Date: 21 Aug 92 08:43:53 GMT
Organization: BNR Europe Ltd, London Rd, Harlow, Essex, CM19 9NA, U.K.

In article <14432@mindlink.bc.ca> Bruce_Harper@mindlink.bc.ca (Bruce Harper) writes:

>It may be possible to have quality offset by quantity.  Another approach is to
>have different "ultimate weapons".  For example, the armored knight was also
>dethroned by the Swiss pike, who were just as invincible as the low bowmen.
>Following along on that thought, which would be more effective would depend on
>terrain, weather and so on.

Had some more thoughts on this.  Counts for history as well as star wars.  
Seems to me that Ultimate weapons happen and work for a period.  During this
time the oposition is mainly crushed, some bands are forced into hard terrain
or scattered areas in the wilderness.  ie the ultimate weapon usually only 
works well in the 'set battle' knind or arena where the enemy can be made to
fight.  It still works in the out of the way places but it costs more in effort
and the people there tend to be more willing to drop everything and run to
aviod it - having learnt from past experience.

This continues for a while and then a tactic evolves that cancels the ultimate
weapon, or a new ultimate weapon is developed.  Adnittedly a rival empire far
away is the one to develope the next step rather than the rebel bands 
scrabbling about in the mud (eg Nukes).

Of course this doesn't help in war games which are short term.

As for the idea of making Long Bows expensive, I don't like!  In History the 
whole of the UK went in for them.  It became enthroned in law and culture and
so was not any more expensive.  As for running out of arrows, any general 
worth his salt makes sure that it won't happen until most of the enemy are 
accouted for.  As for cavalry being the solution, not convinced.  A long bow 
goes  =straight through armour at fairly long range (400m ? I forget but can 
find out) so I'd guess it can take out a little horsey.  On average the UK 
armies won during this period. 

Jonathan
--
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  With fearsome eyes and fiery breath the dragon burnt the girl to death
                    -- from "Too Late Saint George"
From: Bruce_Harper@mindlink.bc.ca (Bruce Harper)
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
Subject: Re: The ultimate weapon
Date: 20 Aug 92 14:58:15 GMT
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Distribution: world

It may be possible to have quality offset by quantity.  Another approach is to
have different "ultimate weapons".  For example, the armored knight was also
dethroned by the Swiss pike, who were just as invincible as the low bowmen.
Following along on that thought, which would be more effective would depend on
terrain, weather and so on.

Bear in mind also that technology is usually only a factor in victory, and
generally not the determining one.  So you could design a series of "ultimate
weapons" which work in different settings and the players then not only have to
design which one to develop, but also when and where to use it (this approach
worked well for me in a World War I game, where the warring powers could
develop tanks, gas, super heavy artillery, planes and so on - the wisdom of the
investment being governed in part by the situation on the front).
Newsgroups: rec.games.design,rec.games.board
From: c1741@moncol.monmouth.edu (MICHAEL CARSON)
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
Subject: Re: Mapping to hex sheets
Keywords: Light table?
Date: 17 Aug 92 16:16:36 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Monmouth College, W. Long Branch, N.J.  07764

In article <Bszq8x.55A@news.cso.uiuc.edu> cdcg9698@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Charles D. Croxton) writes:
>Okay, I've got a hex sheet, and I've got a map.  How do I get the
>map onto the hexsheet?  I've heard of such a thing as a "light table"
>that exists for this purpose, but I have no idea how to make one or
>where to find one.  Does anyone have any ideas?
>
>Thanks for your help.
>
>Derek Croxton

	There are copy machines with overlay capacity that will allow you
to superimpose one image over another, or you could simply put one page
(or a copy if you wish) into the paper feeder of the copy machine, so it
will print the second image on the first, or if they are both Postscript
files, you could TRY deleteing the showpage command that should be at the
end of both files out of ONE file, then reprint them both with the one
WITHOUT A SHOWPAGE FIRST.  Or you could put the one image (ie map)
into the printer, so that a hex page is printed on it (yes, much like
in the second idea)...
	Sorry that this is disorganized, but you get the idea.

|o|\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/|o|
|o| Of Course I speak  |      michael carson       | Carpe Diem, Man.        |o|
|o|  only for myself.  | c1741@moncol.monmouth.edu |                -me      |o|
|o| Would YOU let me   +---------------------------+-------------------------|o|
|o|  speak for you?!?  |      All flames to: nobody@moncol.monmouth.edu      |o|
|o|\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/|o|

Newsgroups: rec.games.design
From: tdunn@ecst.csuchico.edu (Tim Dunn)
Subject: Re: Combat system for frp
Organization: California State University, Chico
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 03:49:00 GMT


They are by Nova, who also made up books for Battletech and Star Wars.
The Ace of Aces serieses where lots of fun too, but all these allow
for some fairly blatant cheating, provided you played it enough times.
There were people who I knew who were required to write down their 
selections in AoA because they knew the books so well.
-- 
Christ:
	A man who was born at least 5,000 years ahead of his time.
From: tomk@westgac3
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
Subject: Re: Adventure Game for a test based on lpmud
Summary: how does one get it?
Keywords: source lpmud ftp
Date: 14 Aug 92 22:09:04 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: West Georgia Color Computer 3

guddt@uniwa.uwa.edu.au (David Bennett) says:
 (bunch of stuff deleted)
>
>I don't know what his thingy does, but why not ftp the original lpmud
>code?  The chance to run a lpmud on a bbs has been available for at
>least 6 months.  One thing you BBS people would have to 
>e careful of though is you are not allowed to charge for usage of it.
>This of course sinks most BBS's out there that charge.....
>
>Free BBS's for the masses!
>
>David.
>[DDT] Pink fish forever.
>-- 
>  David Bennett,  guddt@uniwa.uwa.oz.au | University Computer Club
>     Where Pink fish swim backwards.    | c/o Guild of Undergraduates
 How would one go about obtaining the lpmud source? I'm not on TCP/IP - so a
FTP isn't practical.
-- 
Thomas Kocourek                               : UUCP on an OS9 system,
UUCP: ...!{emory,gatech}!wa4mei!westgac3!tomk : Multitasking in 512K---
LD: (404) 834-4685                            : What a concept!
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
From: daryl@garfield.cs.mun.ca (Daryl Clarke)
Subject: Re: GAME: Greatly Abbreviated Mechanics, Etc. (free RPG!)
Organization: CS Dept., Memorial University of Newfoundland
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 16:51:25 GMT


Gee, How come I didn't think of this?  8-)



-- 
Consider it stepped on.                                            Daryl Clarke
  - Valentine, "Tremors"
                                                       daryl@garfield.cs.mun.ca
                                                       daryl@sparky2.esd.mun.ca
From: jf41+@andrew.cmu.edu (Jonathan R. Ferro)
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
Subject: Re: Alive?
Date: 16 Aug 92 01:50:00 GMT
Organization: Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA

dlaird@terapin.com (Delbert Laird) writes:
> Is anyone still participating in this newsgroup?..I haven't seen
> anything new here in over a week.

Sorry, we're all busy flaming over in rec.games.programmer.  Please feel
free to start any discussion you are interested in.

--
Jon Ferro		MIT Transportation Modelling Research Center (TMRC)
jf41+@andrew.cmu.edu	"We can hack it!"
SGNTR VRS VRSN 3.1B: Strppd nd cmprssd fr qckr trnsmssn! nfct yrs tdy!
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
From: chrisc@debra.dgbt.doc.ca (Chris Camfield)
Subject: Re: Combat system for frp
Organization: Communications Research Centre, Ottawa, Canada
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 17:31:40 GMT

In article <4786@balrog.ctron.com> smith@ctron.com writes:
>In article <1992Aug20.140354.28279@athena.mit.edu>, mphurst@athena.mit.edu (Mark P Hurst) writes:
>
>...
>>I met the inventor of that [Lost Worlds] combat system last summer.
>>... the same guy has an aerial combat 
>>system just like Lost Worlds... it features biplanes.  
>
>Ace of Aces.  Very innovative game.
>
>>I can't remember the name of the guy or his company right now, but I
>
>Nova.
>
>>...I know that the company
>>is in California, though.
>
>Larry Smith (smith@ctron.com)  No, I don't speak for Cabletron.  Need you ask?
>-
>How about we all do something reasonable?  I bet that'll confuse 'em!


Is Nova still in business?  I would love to get my hands on the Ace of
Aces books... *sigh*
-- 
Hurray for Sting and Trudie!  They get married today!
  __  __     __      __
 /   /_/ /  /_/ /\  /_/ /|/  aka Chris Camfield (chrisc@debra.dgbt.doc.ca)
/_/ / / /_ / / /_/ / / / /   Play Akropolis! Telnet to 143.229.1.27 6666
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
From: mathers@sibelius.trl.oz.au (Steven Mathers)
Subject: Re: Combat system for frp
Reply-To: s.mathers@trl.oz.au
Organization: Telecom Research Labs, Melbourne, Australia
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 00:35:29 GMT

In article <Bt77sA.21o@rice.edu>, tomscud@ruf.rice.edu (Thomas Reid Scudder) writes:
|> 
|> 	I've been putting in some work on designing a diceless combat system 
|> for a frp.  The basic idea of the system is that the two attackers pick their 


Well, I am replying in the newsgroup, mostly because I like seeing my
name in print, but partly because I think this is an interesting topic,
and could be used to generate some more discussion in this group.

a)  I dont think it is neccessary to give us exact details of the
system.  What would be more helpful is a general outline of how it
works, and what you think it achieves.

b)  Why have only three different areas of attack, and 2 types of swing.
I think it would be more interesting if you researched swordplay a bit,
and came up with the proper names for diffent types of attacks and
defenses, and how they related to each other in terms of what worked for
this attack, and what didn't.  From this data, you could have a more
interesting and authentic sounding system at least.

c)  I havent played the game, but from what I have heard of the
rolemaster system, it is trying to do something similar in combat,
except that it uses masses of tables, so it is probably worth looking at
that, and pinching good ideas from it.

d)  I thought about differentiating between different types of attacks
(ie, slashing weapons, stabbing weapons and crushing weapons) and their
effects on armour ie: padded leather is great for protection from maces,
but hopeless if someone skewers you on a spear.  I am still not sure
about this.  It makes sense, but I think it may add needless complexity
to the system.  Depends on what you are trying to do.  D&D type players
love this kind of thing, so the more complex and involved they can get
with the combat system, the better, but other roleplayers would tend to
disregard it as too complex.

Anyway, good luck.
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
From: tinsel@uiuc.edu (Thomas Aaron Insel)
Subject: Re: Virtual Reality
Originator: tai50080@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu
Reply-To: tinsel@uiuc.edu
Organization: {not speaking for the} University of Illinois at Urbana
Distribution: rec
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 21:47:56 GMT

marauder@diku.dk (Stephan Dahl) writes:

> You should try reading the Niven/Barnes book Dream Park 3 (The Voodoo Game).
> In the first two books (Dream Park, The Barsoom Project) they hypothesized a
> VR/Live roleplaying system based on holographics, but changing State of the
> Art has made them change concept. Anyway, the system described is a kind of
> live RPG with a VR "overlay" through a kind of goggle system, letting
> thieves spot traps &c, &c. Jolly good yarn, too. Recommended.

I haven't read the third book, but I'm disappointed in this.  I would
much rather, as a player, play in a VR setup like the first two books
had than in a "goggles-and-gloves" type adventure.  It would be much
easier to suspend disbelief if I were actually walking around, swinging
a sword, etc. than if I was hooked up to a lot of machinery showing
computer pictures.
-- 
Thomas Aaron Insel (tinsel@uiuc.edu)
  I speak for myself, and not for the State or University of Illinois.
  "We must not confuse dissent with disloyalty." -- Edward R. Murrow
From: profile@netcom.com (Tom Czarnik)
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
Subject: Cogito Ergo Ludo Journal
Date: 21 Aug 92 20:20:32 GMT
Organization: Tyranny Toys
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4

Cogito Ergo Ludo is an electronic journal focusing on computer based game
design, development, and research. The first issue will be sent out via
mail August 26 (hopefully). The second will be out by September 10th. 
It is available in plain text or PostScrpt (level-2) and is archived at 
ftp.netcom.com 192.100.81.100 in the directory pub/profile/game-dev.

For those that would like to subscribe, please send me mail. I prefer people
to FTP the PS version, but you should still get on the mailing list for
new issue announcements.

...Tom
--
Inet: profile@netcom.com 
AnonymousFTP Directory: aftp-list@netcom.com
 Lists available from news.answers archives in ftp-list or use ftp.netcom.com
 192.100.81.100 in /pub/profile - non-peak hours please.
From: smith@ctron.com (Larry Smith)
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
Subject: Re: Combat system for frp
Date: 20 Aug 92 18:32:12 GMT
Reply-To: smith@ctron.com
Organization: Cabletron Systems, Inc.

In article <1992Aug20.140354.28279@athena.mit.edu>, mphurst@athena.mit.edu (Mark P Hurst) writes:

...
>I met the inventor of that [Lost Worlds] combat system last summer.
>... the same guy has an aerial combat 
>system just like Lost Worlds... it features biplanes.  

Ace of Aces.  Very innovative game.

>I can't remember the name of the guy or his company right now, but I

Nova.

>...I know that the company
>is in California, though.

Larry Smith (smith@ctron.com)  No, I don't speak for Cabletron.  Need you ask?
-
How about we all do something reasonable?  I bet that'll confuse 'em!
From: Bruce_Harper@mindlink.bc.ca (Bruce Harper)
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
Subject: Re: Alive?
Date: 17 Aug 92 22:40:36 GMT
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada

I know what you mean.  The problem may be that design questions are fairly
narrow, and hard to get into without having them become very involved.  I have
tried (with varying degrees of success) to start discussions in this group.
I'll try again:

In a yet-to-be-published review of Advanced Third Reich, the reviewer said the
combat table in A3R was "rigid and out-of-date".  I didn't see any problem with
it, which is why it wasn't changed (one reason, at least).  Is there such a
thing as an "out of date" combat table?  How could it have been better, without
making the whole game more complex?  (This should not be taken as the start of
the second edition to A3R...)
From: cdcg9698@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Charles D. Croxton)
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
Subject: Mapping to hex sheets
Keywords: Light table?
Date: 14 Aug 92 20:29:19 GMT
Article-I.D.: news.Bszq8x.55A
Distribution: na
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana

Okay, I've got a hex sheet, and I've got a map.  How do I get the
map onto the hexsheet?  I've heard of such a thing as a "light table"
that exists for this purpose, but I have no idea how to make one or
where to find one.  Does anyone have any ideas?

Thanks for your help.

Derek Croxton
From: jpg@bnr.co.uk (Jonathan P. Gibbons)
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
Subject: The ultimate weapon
Date: 20 Aug 92 12:24:15 GMT
Distribution: rec
Organization: BNR Europe Ltd, London Rd, Harlow, Essex, CM19 9NA, U.K.

Can anyone think of a game where the ultimate weapon is allowed?  This would
be the equivalent of the death star.  The real example I'm thinking of is
medeaval.  The ultimate weapon then was the long bow.  The English used it
to great and devastating effect against the french.  It has a reload rate
12 times faster than the Cross bow, and only about 1/2 that of the short bow.
Its range was fearsome and the archers were sposed to hit thier target about
90 percent of the time.  Its disadvantages were that you needed constant 
practice - so much so that it became illegal not to practice every day.  I've
heard that darts is posibly evolved from the time when pubs had targets set up
so you can drink and shoot at the same time (!).

Right, so I design a war game with long bows in.  Every player then makes an 
army of long bow men.  BORING.  How do you deal with this.  Or a death star
for that matter.

You can't say only one side is allowed the weapon - the French actually created
some long bow regiments(?) but dis-banded them because they were to good and
the aristocrats got scared.

Jonathan
--
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  With fearsome eyes and fiery breath the dragon burnt the girl to death
                    -- from "Too Late Saint George"
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
From: rjr@titan.ucc.umass.edu (Richard J. Resnick)
Subject: Re: Combat system for frp
Organization: University of Massachusetts, Amherst
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 14:07:14 GMT

Another place you may want to look... I believe Top Secret had a hand-to-hand
combat system that minimized the use of dice.

Richard Resnick

*=====/=== ===^=====.==='========`============/==== = ^========~====/====^ =-=*
*        "I'll return your fire, if you take away your vultures..."           *
*                       - Prometheus, gaining leverage                        *
*===^==/=======\======= ===`====='===> ==========>====.===== =^=====/====*====*
                  Internet Address: rjr@titan.ucc.umass.edu
From: smith@ctron.com (Larry Smith)
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
Subject: Re: Combat system for frp
Date: 19 Aug 92 17:05:14 GMT
Reply-To: smith@ctron.com
Organization: Cabletron Systems, Inc.

In article <1992Aug19.234332.10223@waikato.ac.nz>, rmarsh@waikato.ac.nz writes:
>These and a few other things in the post reminded me of an old book combat
>system called [if my memory will provide me with the name... Lost Worlds!].

Yup!  I got about five books from that series.  I think they topped out at
ten or so.  Nifty system, but requires a zillion books, one for everything
you want to fight.

Each player would choose a manuever, they'd tell the number of the manuever
to each other and each would go to that page, find their maneuver again, and
they'd resync to a pages, each of which would illustrate the other in the
appropriate way.  For example, "Side swing high" versus "duck" would show
the ducker a picture of legs or something, and the winger a picture of the
other thing ducking, and so forth.  Astonishingly flexible, many of the non-
humanoids had interesting options not available to others.  My absolute
favorite was the "pick up bones" option for the Skeleton Warrior, which would
restore hit points.  Nifty idea, but a real combinatorial explosion for
a role-playing game.

Larry Smith (smith@ctron.com)  No, I don't speak for Cabletron.  Need you ask?
-
How about we all do something reasonable?  I bet that'll confuse 'em!
From: ? (?)
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
Subject: Re: The ultimate weapon
Date: 20 Aug 92 13:55:16 GMT
Followup-To: rec.games.design
Distribution: rec
Organization: vanderbilt

In article <JPG.92Aug20122415@holly.bnr.co.uk>, jpg@bnr.co.uk (Jonathan P.
Gibbons) wrote:
> 
> Right, so I design a war game with long bows in.  Every player then makes an 
> army of long bow men.  BORING.  How do you deal with this.  Or a death star
> for that matter.
> 
		  Well one way would be to make such units fearsomely expensive, or
otherwise difficult to obtain "at the drop of a hat" as it were.  Or make
them really powerful in one respect, but rather weak in another.  For
example, longbow units are certainly nasty, but you can limit the extent to
which they can fortify their position (you could only carry so many
sharpened stakes).  This makes them vulnerable to being overrun from a
different approach.  Or you allow opposing infantry unit to use typical
anti-archery tactics (the shield-high charge, etc.)
		  The basic concept behind all of this was evidenced in Star Wars --
sure, the Death Star was powerful, but it had significant weaknesses.  The
Empire lost their single most powerful weapon because they failed to first
recognize those weaknesses and then deploy their other forces accordingly.
		  So, you make longbow units powerful in some respects, but weaker in
others.  Maybe they're hard to get (training and all), so another side
could theoretically overwhelm them with superior numbers (simply charging
huge numbers of pike-men into the archers, for example).  Or make the
archers powerful, but limit their staying power (for example, they run out
of arrows after a while, and are then almost helpless without resupply).
		  Also don't forget that a good cavalry unit could annihilate the
longbowmen if properly used -- allow opposing sides to limit their
horsemen's armor, thereby increasing speed -- the cavalry then wheel off
seemingly into nowhere, only to return charging at the bowmen from another
side while the main assault happens elsewhere.  The longbowmen are then
crushed.
		Anyway, you get the idea...

MCG>
<bing>