From: skroger@zeus.calpoly.edu (Seth L. Kroger)
Newsgroups: talk.origins
Subject: Re: Thermodynamics FAQ
Date: 25 Jul 92 01:08:03 GMT
Organization: California Polytechnic State University, San Luis Obispo


My Responce to Henley's Thermo: Part 3


henley@eng.auburn.edu (James Paul Henley) writes:
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
>o How are the Laws of Thermodynamics applied to various systems?
>
>System - that part of the universe set apart for examination. [1, p.33]
>
>Surroundings - that part of the universe which strongly interacts with the
>system under study. [1, p.33]
>
>Universe - the totality of matter that exists. [1, p.33]
>
>This definition does not include energy that exists apart from matter.  For
>example, radiation in space.  Pure energy, apart from matter, is not
>measureable.  This is somewhat like the uncertainty principle.  In order to
>measure energy, you must first allow it to interact with matter, and then you
>measure the effect on the matter.  But once you have done that, it is no
>longer pure energy, so you can't be certain that what you are measuring is
>accurate for pure energy.  

So, the kinetic energy of a car going down the street is unmeasurable
with out any interactions with other matter (say the road).  Does that
mean that the car doesn't exist?  Just because we don't go out and
measure something preclude its existence or reality.  Energy "apart
from matter" is a very real component of the universe.

>For example, the speed of light.  We must depend
>on the interaction of light with matter to measure the speed, but in so doing,
>we are no longer measuring light *apart from* matter, but rather measuring the
>effect of light *on* matter.  By this definition of the universe, pure energy
>exists in another dimension - outside of the space-time continuum that we call
>the universe.  It is only when energy interacts with matter that it enters the
>universe.

Ohh, in another dimention, outside the continuum.  What kind of
psuedo-scientific, New Age BS is this?  

You're not even consistant with yourself.  Concerning heat transfer,
you say that entropy is transfered with it.  For the modes of heat
transfer you previously wrote:

>Q : Heat Transfer - one of three different types of energy transfer:
>   1) Conduction
>   2) Convection
>   3) Radiation
       ^^^^^^^^^
Radiation means electromagnetic radaition (light, radio, infrared,
etc.)  Since this is one of the major forms of energy you are talking
about, does this mean that the energy, *and*the*entropy*it's*taking*
*with*it* are outside the Universe?  Obviously not, since you went
into a long spiel about how the laws are NOT violated yet your "model"
requires entropy to just disappear in transit.

>  This gives us a clue about the nature of entropy - anytime energy
>interacts with matter, some of that energy is transferred to the matter, and
>some of that energy becomes disordered.
>
>(note to RobD - Is matter the ten thousand things of which Lao Tzu spoke?
>                And is pure energy the Tao? )
>
>System Boundary - the surface that separates the system from its surroundings.
>[1, p.34]
>
>Inside Boundary - the part of the boundary impervious to mass flow. [1, p.35]

?????

>Crossing Boundary - the part of the boundary at which mass enters and
>leaves the system. [1, p.35]
>
>Closed system, or Control Mass, which means that the mass of the system is
>constant, and mass is not allowed to cross the system boundaries.
>
>Open System - a system in which mass is allowed to cross the system boundaries.
>
>Take the earth - we know that gas molecules can occasionally escape into space,
>meteors occasionally shower down into the atmosphere, and space missions leave
>the earth.  So in the strictest sense, the earth is an open system.  But if
>we study the rate of overall energy transfer, and compare that with the rate
>of transfer due to matter entering and leaving, then for all practical
>purposes the earth is currently a closed system, because the effect on the
>overall energy balance is negligible.

Sorry, the earth can be considered steady state, but we continually
recieve and emit energy via radiation.  Even with your definition of a
closed system, the earth isn't an *isolated* system as stated in the
2nd Law.  You just seem to be confusing the issue with your
re-definitions.

[Rest deleted]
>[1] _Fundamentals_of_Engineering_Thermodynamics_, Howell and Buckius,
>McGraw-Hill, 1987
>[2] _Introduction_to_Chemical_Engineering_Thermodynamics_, _Fourth_Edition_,
>Smith and van Ness, McGraw-Hill, 1987
>[3] _Classical_Thermodynamics_of_Nonelectrolyte_Solutions_, van Ness and
>Abbott,  McGraw-Hill, 1982
>
>
>James P. Henley Jr.
>Chemical Engineering Dept.
>Auburn University

|======================================================================|
| Seth Kroger                                                          |
| skroger@pan.calpoly.edu                                              |
| Cal Poly, San Luis Obispo                                            |
Newsgroups: talk.origins