From: eliedw@hedda.uio.no (Elie Dib Wardini)
Subject: Re: ARAB UNITY
Organization: UiO
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 11:52:32 GMT

In article <1992Nov17.003316.9016@ee.eng.ohio-state.edu>
rached@blanc.eng.ohio-state.edu (rached) writes:
>In article <1992Nov16.163232.28699@ulrik.uio.no> eliedw@hedda.uio.no (Elie Dib
Wardini) writes:
>>
>>YEs Rached, I have read some Islamic law and I would not accept to live under
>>an Islamic state for many reasons:
>>
>>1- I am not a muslim thus I am not bound by Islam.
>
>And Elie, I repeat, you are not bound by Islam if you are a non-Muslim
>living in an Islamic State.
>You practice your own religion and you are bound by it.

In an Islamic state, it is the religious element that decides on what is
correct and what is not. THus if I were to write a book against Muhammad, I
would not be allowed to publish it, I will not be allowed to speak publically
against Islam as a belief or a way of life (If I wished to do so). I will be
bound by a pact (the Dhimmi pact) that I may not want to be included under.

I will never be able to achieve high posistions in the political
administration, since Mulims can only be ruled by Muslims. If I have a dispute
with a Muslim, I will not be treated as equal and my trial can not be taken
before a secular or Christian jury and judge.

In short, being under the Dhimmi system means acknowledging that Islam is the
supreme religion in my country and that Islam is tolerant enough to let me live
in peace as long as I fulfill certain requirements.

This fact is enough to make the whole system unacceptable.

>>2- Under Islam I am considered as a second class citizen.
>>  a- I am not equal to all citizens
>>  b- I am "protected" and not a free independant citizen
>>  c- etc. etc.
>
>Can you produce proofs of unequality ?
>As far as protected, Non-Muslims AND Muslims are protected by the state.

             Protected by a Muslim state, based on Muslim Principles!!! and by
the way protecte against whom? who is it who is threatening me? why should I be
protected? of course, I am protected against Islam, or guarateed that Islam
will not exterminate me as long as I fulfill certain requirements!

remember when Muhammad forced the Jews to perform the laws that were in their
Torah concerning adultary? Yes, it was Islam (Muhammad) who decided how the
Jews will act even if they (the Jews) did not want to follow their Torah
litterally.

The ultimate Judge is Islam, thus I am not equal!

>A Non-Muslim is a free (he is not a slave) independent citizen as long
>as he/she obeys the laws (much like a Muslim).

              Muslim laws!!!! notice, even it is Islam that is tolerant in
certain circumstances. What if I want to hand a banner on my house saying Jesus
is God! What if I want to do similarly to MUslims and call from my churches
that there is no other GOd than Jesus, and we believe in the Holy Trinity?
   
>You are equal to all citizens in that you have your rights and you have
>your oblgations, you are guaranteed not to have any of your rights
>violated and not to have any obligation imposed on you that will produce
>hardship on your part.

not unless I entre into a dispute with a Muslim! Then I am not equal! of course
I have rights and obligations, but only on the presimses of Islam, and when
compared to a Muslim, I am not equal on a one to one basis

>about the tec. etc. unless you are more specific I cannot clarify them.

It is the principle of submission to Islam, even as a non-Muslim that makes the
system bad.

>>3- it is forbidden for Muslims to convert and become non-muslims
>
>Sure and that's not in the rights of Non-Muslims as much as it is in the
>rights of Muslims. Why should you (a Non-Muslim) feel threatened to be a
>citizen in a state where people from another group have some laws
>applicable to them (that are not applicable to you) ?
>It seems to me that the Muslims should voice their objections (if any)
>to this. In fact, before becoming a Muslim you are told that you should
>be 100% sure that you are accepting Islam because you beleive it is the
>true religion and not for anything else. To make you understand the
>seriousness of that you are told BEFOREHAND that you may not go out ONCE
>you go in. You are left with your choice and you CANNOT be coerced to
>choose.

Rached, I can not follow the principle: ba@d kdiishe ma yinboT Hashiish!

I care about the system by which my country is run. Let me add further, I once
became convinced that Adventism (a chritian denomination) was THE truth. I was
19 years old. I remained a convinced Adventist for about 5 years before
starting to get my doubts. The sixth year I decided to leave. If it were Islam
I had converted to, and if I lived under an Islamic state, I would have to be
killed!

People should be allowed to grow and change their minds. If a person is born in
a religious faith, this person should get the chance to change and choose what
she pleases. If a person enters a faith, this person should also be allowed to
opt out.

>>4- etc. etc.
>
>>Rached, history is full of all kinds of stories, some are positive others are
>>not. THerfore refering to Spain as an example, it is possible to refere to
>>Arabia and other places where Christians were not well treated and where Jews
>>were not as welcome.
>Elie ,
>For the benefit of all of us, can you tell us how CHRISTIANS were not
>well treated in Arabia ? (Please give examples from the time when there
>was an Islamic State ruling that area).
>Also can you give examples about Jews being not as welcome ?
>As far as I know and have studied, there were very few Christians in Arabia at
>the  time of the first Islamic State in Medina. One of them was the Son
>of Hatem Al-Taii (the well known generous man), he didn't like that his
>tribe accepted Islam and went North because he couldn't stand the idea.
>Then he came back and met with the prophet (peace be upon him) and
>discussed (very openly and frankly) Islam and the parts pertaining to
>christianity with him. Afterwards he accepted Islam and became a Sahabi
>(Companion to tyhe prophet), the story is well known and mentioned in
>Bukhari (I think). So you see Non-Muslims in an Islamic State can even
>debate with Muslims about Islam.

I will try to verify if what I say is right, but as far as I can recall it was
so that after Islam, the policy was such that no non-Muslims were allowed to
remain in Arabia.

>About Jews, the history of the first Islamic state is full with treateis
>made by the Prophet (peace be upon him) and many tribes of the Jews.
>Also history shows that Jews were always the ones to break the treaties
>and align themselves with the enemies of the state. History also shows
>that the Prophet (peace be upon him) fought them only after they broke
>their treaties with him and they were driven out of Arabia because of
>their constant pattern of treaty breaking and deceipt towards the
>Muslims.

THe land of Arabia, their own homes were just as much theirs as Muhammad's. Of
course, they had treaties and these were broken. why did they have these
treaties to start with? Remember that the Dhimmi system is based on Muhammad's
treaties with the Jews. Can it be that these Jews always wanted to loosen the
grip Muhammad had on them? Could it be that they wanted something completely
different from that which Muhammad wanted? By being surpeme ruler, he decided
and drove them out, by any means he had.

THis is what will apply to non-Muslims in an Islamic state: as long we follow
the rules layed down by Islam, we are fine, otherwise we either leave or bear
the consequenses, which f course is decided by Islam.

Again, What if I am a heathen or proclaimed atheist? What if I believe in fire
and the sun? What if I deny that there is exists a God? what if I believe that
there are three Gods? of Five? What if I am a spritist? and belive in the
devil? What are my rights then?

>>
>>Every empire has had its golden age, and all have had their ages of babary!
>>
>Yes Elie and here we are not speaking about Empires as we are speaking
>about the rights and duties of Non Muslims in an Islamic State.

Are you saying that the state in Spain was a "real" Islamic state in the strict
sence of the word? meaning that all Islamic rules and laws were applied?

I doubt that, but I may be wrong, I will research it.


elie wardini