HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: dcb@wdl1.wdl.loral.com (David C Blume)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: The rec.arts.{comics.}manga wars continue
Date: 9 Apr 92 18:58:36 GMT
Organization: Loral Western Development Labs

Lazlo's getting pretty impassioned about this debate.  His tone is getting
worse and worse.  This is just semantics, guys.  But here's something of
interest:

lazlo@triton.unm.edu (Lazlo Nibble) writes:
>Manga are to *western* comics as judo is to boxing.  Both manga and
>western comics are comics, and both boxing and judo are martial arts. So
>put the group where it belongs. 

Good point.  The group for the discussion of western comics should be
on the same level as the group for the discussion of asian comics.  Currently
the group for the discussion of western comics is rec.arts.comics.  That
can change, and if so, we'd be happy to move the proposed rec.arts.manga
too.

--David
+-------------------------------------------------------------------+
| David Blume            | When you're holding a hammer, everything |
| dcb@wdl1.wdl.loral.com | looks like a nail. --Anonymous.          |
+-------------------------------------------------------------------+
From: hades@coos.dartmouth.edu (Hades)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: The rec.arts.{comics.}manga wars continue
Date: 14 Apr 92 17:10:35 GMT
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH

axolotl@socs.uts.edu.au (Iain Sinclair) writes:

>lazlo@triton.unm.edu (Lazlo Nibble) writes:
> >Why?  The level of the name is not a value judgement.

>rec.arts.comics          
>rec.arts.comics.manga   .... manga is subordinate to comics.
>                        .... manga are derived from comics.
>                        .... manga are less than comics.
>                        .... manga are a subset of comics.

    You forgot one:      .... manga are comic books, and therefore part
			      of the comic book hierarchy

    Just because you choose to give the nodes in the hierarchy some kind
of value doesn't mean that's the way everyone sees it. And frankly if
you look at some arguments about other hierarchy names, you will see
that most peopl feel that having your own node means you are being set
apart from the rest, you are being given specific treatment because
discussion of your topic warrants its own specific treatment apart from
the rest. (cf. rec.games.frp reorg discussion)

>rec.arts.comics
>rec.arts.manga          .... manga sits alongside comics.
>                        .... manga is an equivalent art form to comics.
>                        .... manga and comics are of equal importance.

    This is as silly as r.a.anime/r.a.animation.

>No value judgement?

    Not unless you want to assign values to something that doesn't
normally have value in any other aspect other than categorization of
similar interests.

--
-Hades  (Brian V. Hughes)   | Common Taxpayer Q&A: Q. If I use the 1040 how
 hades@Coos.Dartmouth.Edu   | do I indicate my preference for the Elvis stamp?
 Mac Database Developer     | A. You write THIN ELVIS or FAT ELVIS in the box
 Dartmouth Medical School   | "Spouse's Social Security #." -Dave Barry
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: dcb@wdl1.wdl.loral.com (David C Blume)
Subject: Re: The rec.arts.{comics.}manga wars continue
Organization: Loral Western Development Labs
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1992 18:43:56 GMT

tkim@sdcc3.ucsd.edu (Tonghyun Kim) writes:
>hades@coos.dartmouth.edu (Hades) writes:
[Tonghyun notes that "manga" means animation as well...]
>
>>    Ok, again. Is this group for the discussion of all manga or only for
>>printed manga? If the former, please see above, if the latter then since
>>printed manga can be called "comic" this group should be called
>>rec.arts.comics.manga.
>
>I guess you didn't read my follow-up message(s). I suggested that
>rec.arts.comics.ASIAN would be a better choice than
>rec.arts.comics.manga since r.a.c.a will be more logical and less
>confusing than r.a.c.m. 

Between rec.arts.comics.asian and rec.arts.comics.manga I prefer *.manga.
Manga, to me, implies a particular style of story-telling.  *.asian just means
from that geographic area.  And the group (alt.manga) currently seems
infatuated with Japanese manga, as opposed to comics from Asia.  At least,
that's what I'm interested in.  IMHO, the new group is for the discussion
of instances of a particular style of story telling, not comics for Asia.

--David
-------------            --------------------------          ----------------
|.<.....@...+############+ David Blume            +####      |.........>....|
|...........|            | dcb@wdl1.wdl.loral.com |   #######+..............|
-------------            --------------------------          ----------------
From: lucas@scicom.AlphaCDC.COM (Kevin Lucas Lord)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.arts.dragonlance
Summary: HEY!
Date: 5 Apr 92 23:40:11 GMT
Organization: Crossroads School, USA

In article <1992Apr4.234629.1@wharton.upenn.edu>, millerl@wharton.upenn.edu writes:
> I absolutely agree. Also, given the late state of the current discussion
> on reorganizing rec.games.frp, now is the wrong time to propose another
> roleplaying discussion group. Once the vote has been called and taken
> for the various rec.games.frp subgroups currently under discussion, and
> if there is sufficient call for such a group, then this should be
> brought up again either as rec.games.frp.dragonlance or
> rec.games.frp.dnd.dragonlance.
But wait!!!!! Like the original RFD said, this is for the books
as well! Do the discussions of books belong under rec.games.frp?
Maybe if they are books related to a game maybe, but not if
they are just normal ol' books that people read. rec.games.frp
is definnetly not the place to put a dragonlance newsgroup.
Maybe under rec.arts.sf? How about it? It seems to be the only
logical choice to me.



-- 
Gandalf Olorin, Alpha Comm. Dev. Corp. -  DOMAIN lucas@scicom.alphacdc.com
UUCP	       {ncar,boulder,nyx}!scicom!lucas  Kevin L. Lord
"I will not say do not weep! For all tears are not evil." -Gandalf Olorin,
The Return of the King, Lord of the Rings, book VI, J.R.R. Tolkien
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: twpierce@amhux1.amherst.edu (Tim Pierce)
Subject: Re: RFD:  rec.games.mud.{tiny,diku,announce}
Organization: Amherst College, Amherst, MA
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1992 07:51:29 GMT

In article <HURTTA.92Apr14201758@plootu.Helsinki.FI> hurtta@cs.Helsinki.FI (Kari E. Hurtta) writes:

>I think, that there is enough newsgroup (I just counted that in
>.newsrc have 1946 groups - help). I think that it hurt to create
>much more newsgroups without good reason.

Why do you think so, and what do you think a "good reason" is?

-- 
____ Tim Pierce                / "Someone here suggested blue square badges for
\  / twpierce@amherst.edu      /  straights.  Maybe we should try mauve
 \/ (BITnet: TWPIERCE@AMHERST) /  heptagons?" - Damian Cugley, on soc.bi
From: michael@resonex.com (Michael Bryan)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: misc.jobs.offered reorganization
Date: 13 Apr 92 22:29:58 GMT
Article-I.D.: resonex.1992Apr13.222958.9717
Organization: Resonex Inc., Sunnyvale CA

In article <Apr.13.16.29.37.1992.25623@cadenza.rutgers.edu> masticol@cadenza.rutgers.edu (Steve Masticola) writes:
>root@dogear.spk.wa.us (Bob Kirkpatrick) writes:
>>REMOVE: misc.jobs.offered
>>CREATE: misc.jobs.entry    = positions offered to entrylevel applicants
>>        misc.jobs.expert   = positions offered to the experienced
>>        misc.jobs.recruit  = positions offered by recruitment agents
>
>How about "misc.jobs.experienced"?  [instead of "expert"]

I'd agree that "experienced" is a better name than "expert", and would
strongly prefer it in a vote.

Also, I think all *three* of these should be subgroups of
misc.jobs.offered.  (And still do away with m.j.o as a group itself.)
The word "offered" needs to be there, to give (most) people the
intuitive sense that these are job offerings.  If the names as given
are used, the percentage of posts which are resumes will increase
dramatically, I fear.

>misc.jobs.recruit would be redundant. Let recruiters post their
>articles to the appropriate group(s).

Here I disagree.  Lots of people (myself included) don't want to deal
with a headhunter, er, recruiter.  Lots of other people would *prefer*
a recruiter.  It makes sense to make it easier for such people.  For
those who don't care, the extra newsgroup split isn't *that* much of a
hassle.  Also, how about making it "recruiter" instead of "recruit"?
(Ok, so I'm picking a nit...  it just sounds better to me.  :-)

>I STRONGLY RECOMMEND MODERATION of any job-offer groups to limit
>"noise" postings

I also agree with this.  With a moderator willing to take the time,
this could also greatly improve the content of the subject lines.  For
that matter, if the subject lines were moderated religiously, they
could then contain a RECRUITER or DIRECT keyword, and the third
newsgroup would be less necessary.  I fear finding a moderator for
such a task would be difficult, however.


One other point is bound to come up sooner or later, so I might as
well make it sooner.  With the three groups as given, there is a bit
of assymetry, and an argument could be made for making the "recruiter"
group into an "entry-level" and "experienced" pair, as well.  Just a
thought...  I'm not sure it's warranted.  Gee, one possible "solution"
would give us misc.jobs.offered.{entry,experienced}.{recruiter,direct}.
Or is that misc.jobs.offered.{recruiter,direct}.{entry,experienced}?
Hmmmm...  :-/

-- 
Michael Bryan	        michael@resonex.com
"This isn't an argument, you're just contradicting me!"  "No I'm not."
Xref: sparky news.groups:9719 alt.native:516
From: twpierce@amhux1.amherst.edu (Tim Pierce)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD:  rec.music.enya
Date: 9 Apr 92 01:40:54 GMT
Organization: Amherst College, Amherst, MA

In article <508@cbmtoruucp> caleb@cbmtoruucp (Caleb J. Howard) writes:

>Yes, I think that a newsgroup to discuss Enya-esque music is a damn fine idea.

I think it's a piss-poor idea.  I love the woman, but I don't want to
see rec.music.monkees, rec.music.new-kids, rec.music.zamfir and
rec.music.tmbg.  This is what rec.music.misc is for, people.  Leave
the creation of new newsgroups for artists that have made a serious
dent in history.  The passage of rec.music.phish and, to a lesser
extent, alt.music.enya has rather badly damaged newbies' impressions
of the newsgroup creation process.

-- 
____ Tim Pierce                / "Someone here suggested blue square badges for
\  / twpierce@amherst.edu      /  straights.  Maybe we should try mauve
 \/ (BITnet: TWPIERCE@AMHERST) /  heptagons?" - Damian Cugley, on soc.bi
From: wald@theory.lcs.mit.edu (David Wald)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.arts.manga
Date: 9 Apr 92 13:41:29 GMT
Organization: Laboratory for Computer Science, MIT

In article <axolotl.702785440@syzygy> axolotl@socs.uts.edu.au writes:
>wald@theory.lcs.mit.edu (David Wald) writes:
> >If, as a couple of people have pointed out, native Japanese
> >speakers conventionally translate "manga" as "comics", then I can't
> >even see it being a problem if you're coming from that direction.
>
>It's the same sort of translation that results in manga about "Chi"
>or martial arts being translated as "fighting comics".
>
>Like I said earlier, I wouldn't take too much notice of it.  (Maybe
>we can hear from a native speaker on this one.)

I wasn't arguing that it's the correct translation, but that it is the
known one.  As such, it would make the name rec.arts.comics.manga both
comprehensible and findable, and thus useful as an index to native
Japanese speakers, as well as giving a clue of the group's nature to
those who don't know what manga are and can't find the word in their
dictionaries.

-David
--
============================================================================
David Wald                                           wald@theory.lcs.mit.edu
   "Blessed are the peacocks, for they shall be called sonship of God"
             -- Matt 5:9, from a faulty QuickVerse 2.0
============================================================================
From: michael@dime.cs.umass.edu (Michael Kieras)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: rec.arts.comics.manga is anomalous and misleading.
Date: 9 Apr 92 23:48:48 GMT
Reply-To: michael@dime.cs.umass.edu (Michael Kieras)
Organization: University of Massachusetts, Amherst

In article <axolotl.702784088@syzygy> axolotl@socs.uts.edu.au writes:
> >We have an existing hierarchy for comics, and
> >since manga are a type of comics
>
>Wrong, wrong, wrong.  Comics and manga are as different as boxing
>and martial arts.

You keep harping on this, but haven't as yet begun to explain the
differences.  The news.groups discussion and the proposed charter of
the group itself have so far indicated nothing other than that manga
_are_ a specific form of comic.  If you want to convince the people
who think it belongs under the comics hierarchy that manga are distinct
from comics, then start _enumerating specific differences_.

Please don't waste bandwidth with another "but we already have"
response.  If you do, _at least_ cite specific portions of posts
where you think the point has been made.

Cop-outs of the form "what's the use, you've already made up your mind"
are equally nonresponsive, useless, and undesirable.


Michael Kieras
michael@cs.umass.edu

I do not speak for my employer.
Xref: sparky news.groups:10011 soc.culture.indian.american:1741 soc.culture.indian:13985
From: alok@cbnewsi.cb.att.com (alok.vijayvargia)
Newsgroups: news.groups,soc.culture.indian.american,soc.culture.indian
Subject: Re: RFD2: SCIA (The new CFV... is it needed ?
Date: 10 Apr 92 22:33:21 GMT
Followup-To: poster
Distribution: usa
Organization: AT&T

In article <1992Apr10.014535.16193@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>, chohan@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Harpal Chohan) writes:

> >I am even willing to conduct a quick straw poll to ask the net users
> 
> Incredible! I suggest you submit that one to rec.humor.funny.
> 
> >what they think. If the net users want a revote with a 2/3 majority
> >over those who don't want a revote, then I will agree to a revote.
> 
> What gives you the impression that your agreement is necessary?

What gives you the impression that my agreement is not necessary ?

> -h
> ---

Alok
From: jka@math.ufl.edu (Jon K. Akers)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD:  rec.arts.dragonlance
Date: 5 Apr 92 18:59:07 GMT
Article-I.D.: blue-ton.JKA.92Apr5145907
	<1992Apr4.221528.6981@cs.yale.edu>
Organization: University of Florida Department of Mathematics

In article <1992Apr4.221528.6981@cs.yale.edu> heintzelman-george@CS.YALE.EDU (George Heintzelman) writes:
   In article <1992Apr4.180931.15062@uunet.uu.net> EGIBBS@csci1.csci.unt.edu (Austin Gibbs) writes:
   >Group: rec.arts.dragonlance
   >Status: unmoderated
   >
   >Proposed Charter:
   >   The Dragonlance series from TSR, the makers of the AD&D role-playing 
   >system, has become a series with several books on the bestseller list. 
   >There are many uses for a discussion group.
   >   Testing new short stories on people already familiar with the dragonlance
   >world of Krynn.
   >   Discussing questions about the world of Krynn.
   >   A place for DM's to exchange ideas on running campaigns in the 
   >Dragonlance world.
   >   Discussing new releases of Dragonlance books.
   >This will be for serious discussions on these and other related topics. 
   >

	   The main question I have here is simply, WHY? All of these
   topics have places they can be discussed, rec.arts.sf.* and
   rec.games.frp depending on what you're talking about.  And, reading
   both of those groups (Staggering under the volume), there is only a
   very, very small number of posts on these topics.  If I'm not
   mistaken, there is a dragonlance mailing list, oriented towards the
   frp topics.  I see no reason to add this group.

Since this point came up, why not have it as rec.arts.sf.games or
something similar? I don't think that there are enough people out
there to support a dragon-lance specific group, but how about a group
that entails all science fiction/fantasy games? I guess another name
for this might be rec.games.sci-fi or something like that. What do you
think? 

   -- 
   -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
   -George Heintzelman -=+OOOOO+=-  Yale University= When in doubt, integrate.
   -xheintze@minerva.cis.yale.edu ================== 
   -PO Box 2372 Yale Station, New Haven Ct 06520 === 
--
###########################################################################
#  Jon Akers                      "...realize you're living in your       #
#  jka@math.ufl.edu                golden years..."                       #
#  SILVERFIRE%oak.decnet@pine.circa.ufl.edu                               #
###########################################################################
#  Try MudDog mud at mud.math.ufl.edu 2000 (128.227.168.2)	    	  #
###########################################################################
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: brunner@kazoo.ssd.loral.com (Brian Brunner)
Subject: Re: 2nd RFD: SCIA (Is a new CFV really needed ?)
Reply-To: brunner@kazoo.ssd.loral.com (Brian Brunner)
Organization: Space Systems/Loral
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1992 17:31:57 GMT

[much statistical blathering by Alok, deleted]

I am reminded of the ditty stating that Figures don't lie,
but any liar can figure.

Yes... a re-vote is needed.
scia is not carried at my org and won't be until a reliable
vote is carried.
What this means, alok, is that if you want the group to get
full distribution, support the re-vote!
The fact that you are an embarrasment to the yahoos on the net
does not effect the utility of the group, fighting the re-vote hurts
the group.

to quote you:
!!Now,
!!
!!did your little brains get that?
!!
!!Alok

--
HELP!! Somebody slapped a "stop payment" on my sanity check!!
brunner@kazoo.ssd.loral.com; Space Systems/Loral; Palo Alto, Calif.
Black Holes... the /dev/null of the Universe; the opinion of 65534.
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: rlb@access.digex.com (Richard L. Butler)
Subject: Re: rec.games.frp reorg
Organization: The Fourth Drawer on the Left, Second Column
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1992 08:12:11 GMT

smith@ctron.com writes:
>rlb@access.digex.com (Richard L. Butler) writes:
>>>rlb@access.digex.com (Richard L. Butler) writes:
>
>>>[larry smith expostulates wildly]
>
>That, Sir, is entirely a matter of your opinion.

O.K., I retract that.

>I did.  He proposed a special group for DnD.  That is a game-based split,
>first cousin to a genre-based split, and exactly as myself and many others

Someone else has ably refuted this statement, but I suppose that I will have
to retract my implied statement that you didn't *read* Loren's proposal.
Instead, I must believe that you have not *understood* Loren's proposal, but
that is of course IMO.

>[long bit deleted]
>public flamefests.  I posted to this thread to point out a reductio ad
>absurdum and now I have to listen to your patronizing lectures about being
>informed of *everything* in the thread.

I have not yet begun to be patronizing...  patronizing I do with a rather
heavy hand, and not very often.  I was complaining about what I saw as
your willful misunderstanding of the issues.  Your reductio ad absurdem was
based on what I (and others, who have already responded) believe to be an
inadequate grasp of the proposed charter of rec.games.frp.dnd.

-- 
 Richard L. Butler             rlb@access.digex.com             301-220-2020
 Digital Express Group, 6006 Greenbelt Road #228, Greenbelt, Maryland  20770
   **** Express Access: Online Communications in Washington/Baltimore ****
   * login as "new" for info, 301-220-0462 (Wash) or 410-766-1855 (Balt) *
From: plutchak@pilsner.geo.brown.edu (Joel Plutchak)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD for new IMAGE PROCESSING newsgroup
Date: 13 Apr 1992 21:07:21 GMT
Organization: Brown University Planetary Geology
NNTP-Posting-Host: pilsner.geo.brown.edu


Tim Eckert writes:
>>		       on creating a newsgroup for
>>                            IMAGE PROCESSING
>
>  What's wrong with comp.graphics.visualization?  Isn't it pretty similar
>to what's been defined for Image Processing?

   I can't discuss the charter of that group, but will comment on the
generic issue.
   While traditional image processing can be a part of visualization,
in practice, current packages seem to get more into solid modeling,
animation, multivariate dataset display, and data reduction.  Few
of the packages I've seen, used, and/or demoed support traditional
image processing to the extent that those of us in the field would
like.  From what I've seen of the traffic in the visualization
newsgroup, this is true there, too.

Later, Ellen Seebacher writes:
>Please consider reading the "List of Active Newsgroups" in
>news.announce.newusers before you attempt to reinvent the wheel:
>
>comp.graphics           Computer graphics, art, animation, image processing.

   We can read, Ellen.  We discussed this in comp.graphics a couple
weeks back.  Basically, there are an indeterminate number of us out
here who do image processing, and  who feel the charter of comp.graphics
is too broad to do a good job handling all the traffic without over-
whelming some of the less "sexy" topics (e.g. image processing).
A newsgroup vote would tell us, quantitatively, if there is enough
interest to justify a separate IP group.

   I would like to see this group come to a vote, and will support
its creation if it does.
--
Joel Plutchak, Research Programmer/Analyst
plutchak@porter.geo.brown.edu -or- PGGIPL::PLUTCHAK (VMS: Just say NO!)
Favorite sci.geo.meteorology quote: "Joel dissipated over China on 7 September."
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: frnk@cs1.bradley.edu (Paul Ondercin)
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.music.enya
Organization: Bradley University
Distribution: na
Date:  8 Apr 92 14:32:38 GMT

>   Hopefully this will start one :-)  Personally I don't like the idea of
>   groups devoted to individual artists, and will probably vote against the
>   group on that basis.  But if we are going to have such groups, we should
>   create a sub-hierarchy, eg "rec.music.artists" to contain them.
   Good idea! But I won't be able to do it. I don't have the time to take care
of the voteing for a restructuring of rec.music.* Anyone else want to take 
up the ball?

   For those of you who love or hate me... I'm going to start on the CFV. As
no real changes were suggested to my last postI'm just going to rewrite the
charter. It'll be a rewording of my last post with only cosmetic changes.

	 Frnks! :>
--
_____________________________________________________________________________.
!________Paul Ondercin, owner of "THE MACHINE", a 486 of epic power!__________!
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!_________ponder@heartland.bradley.edu_____________ae198@yfn.ysu.edu__________!
!___Frnkfrnkfrnkfrnkfrnk!!!___|_Just a little penguin that can only say Frnk!_!
!_*YOU* think you've got problems?_Ever worry about being eaten by a walrus?__!
Newsgroups: news.groups