Organization: Queen's University at Kingston
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 18:46:49 EST
From: andy <2893684@QUCDN.QueensU.CA>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Israel and the diaspora
 <1992Nov18.001809.9737@u.washington.edu>
 <92323.0136152893684@QUCDN.QueensU.CA>
 <1992Nov18.205954.26329@u.washington.edu>

In article <1992Nov18.205954.26329@u.washington.edu>,
nobby@milton.u.washington.edu (Vitaly Shmatikov) says:
>
>In article <92323.0136152893684@QUCDN.QueensU.CA> andy
><2893684@QUCDN.QueensU.CA> writes:
>>In article <1992Nov18.001809.9737@u.washington.edu>,
>>nobby@milton.u.washington.edu (Vitaly Shmatikov) says:
>>>
>>>In article <92322.1712442893684@QUCDN.QueensU.CA> andy
>>><2893684@QUCDN.QueensU.CA> writes:
>>>>References:
>>>>
>m
>>><92304.1853132893684@QUCDN.QueensU.CA><1992Nov2.143745.6279@cbnewsl.cb.att.c
>o
>>>> <92312.0400382893684@QUCDN.QueensU.CA> <1e5c6iINNq11@pita.cs.huji.ac.il>
>>>>
>
>[... deletions and omissions ...]
>
>>>>
>>>>Whether they want to or not? So much for free will! this explains Israel's
>>>>arrogant, patronising and coercive attitude towards Russian Jews and many
>r
>>>othe
>>>> Jewish communities in the diaspora. Especially the policy of trying to
>>>>eliminate the opportunity for Russian Jews to go anywhere but Israel
>>>>
>>>
>>>I would be grateful if you could provide some sources for your last
>>>statement. I left Russia not so long ago and I hardly felt any Israeli
>>
>>Canadian Jewish News 2 or three years ago reporting on a speech by
>>Natan Sharansky in Montreal in which he criticised the Israeli government
>>and North American Zionists for encouraging the implementation and tightening
>>of US quotas on Russian Jews. Also the statements of various Russian Jews
>>earlier in this string.
>>
>>
>>>pressure let alone attempts "to eliminate the opportunity for Russian
>>>Jews to go anywhere but Israel". Russian authorities couldn't care less
>>
>>Let's not forget "direct flights to Jerusalem" in the mid 80s, a tactic
>>designed to prevent Jews from flying to Vienna and declaring themselves
>>refugees so they could go to the US and elsewhere in the West. Also my
>>father's personal experience. Being persuaded to sign a piece of paper
>>by Israeli authorities being told only later that what he has done is
>>sign away his refugee status giving him no choice but to go to Israel
>>(my father couldn't read Hebrew and actually believed the Israeli official
>>who lied to him about the meaning of the document he signed)
>>
>
>If I were you I would refrain from making statements like the above.
>Not that I feel like developing a full-blown squabble but I can't help
>noticing quite a few discrepancies. "Direct flights to Jerusalem"
>(I assume you mean Ben Gurion airport in here) hardly existed before

Tel Aviv, sorry

>1990-91. The overwhelming majority of Soviet Jews bound for Israel
>arrived there via Bucharest and - to a lesser extent - Warsaw,

but no longer Vienna, the Romanian government provided no alternative
destination for Russian Jews save Israel, they were not permitted
to go to the West from Romania, Warsaw I dont know, but not Romania

>Nicosia, et cetera. I agree that these routes were designed with an
>implicit goal to prevent the emigrants from defecting in Vienna.
>However, if one was dead set on going to America or elsewhere he
>still could go to Vienna absolutely unhindered by Mossad agents and
>then proceed to Ladispoli. This business was fully functional up
>to late 1989 / early 1990 when INS wound up its facilites in Rome
>and gradually transferred them to Moscow.
>
>Perhaps Israel felt uneasy about it. It's quite possible and I tend
>to agree that this might be the case. But the talk about "coercion"
>and "pressure" is totally inappropriate. IMO, there is a difference
>between mild Zionist propaganda and actual use of force to make
>people move to Israel.

You concede though that the routes were designed with the explicit goal of
preventing Jews from going elsewhere (defecting, your word, is an interesting
choice of phrase) certainly this is somewhat coercive. I am not saying Israel
is kidnapping Jews, forcing them to go to Israel against their will (well, not
if you don't count Mordechai Vannunu, but that's a different story:) rather
that Israel is being rather patronising and big brotherly in trying to close
other options to Jews, both by lobbying the US to tighten quota restrictions
and by designing routes which make it difficult for Jews to go anywhere but
Israel. You have not commented on the first point but you have essentially
conceded the second
--andy

>
>The last point: I sympathize your father who was diddled out of
>his right to live where he wishes. I also must note that all
>immigration documents for the Russian olim are bilingual.
>
>Shalom!
>
>Nobby
>nobby@u.washington.edu
Xref: sparky soc.culture.jewish:20704 alt.conspiracy:12382