HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: tytgat@esat.kuleuven.ac.be (John Tytgat)
Subject: Re: CFD: Icon names in templates
Originator: tytgat@rilke
Reply-To: tytgat@esat.kuleuven.ac.be (John Tytgat)
Organization: K.U.Leuven, Belgium
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 10:02:56 GMT

In article <1992Dec14.223454.12513@cs.aukuni.ac.nz> jwil1@cs.aukuni.ac.nz (TMOTA) writes:
> [...]
>But there is more... He has got an official file allocation from
>Acorn for a new template file format, with the hope of making a
>new template format, as well as releasing C code (or possibly even a
>module) to allow programs to load the new template format and
>'emulate' all the new features by a combination of new code
>and use of existing WIMP constructs.

This is interesting.  Would you mind asking him to reveal the new template
format ? Maybe we have some suggestions for improvement.

>Some of the ideas i have seen/suggested for this format are:
>
> [new features deleted]
>
>Thus, the template format would allow editing of a much greater amount of the
>interface without having to alter the program at all. Ideally, you should
>be able to radically alter the look & feel of the application, it's menus
>and key-bindings, ALL with a single template editor package.
>
>So any suggestions I will collect and pass on to him if he doesn't get them
>for himself...

- multi file editing
- selection of icons in the template editor <> selected icons in the
  window definition (unlike in the otherwise excellent TemplEd)
- nice structured C source where we easily can add our own tools ;-)
  Or even better :
  A modular approach like in ArtWorks would be 'creme de la creme' : so we
  could share our tools without having to hack the C source.
- output of a text file containing all the menu, icon & window text.  This
  file could be used as input for the MessageTrans module.
- grouped icones (like in Draw)
- print facilities
- ...

John
BASS
Newsgroups: comp.sys.acorn.tech
From: altman@cryton.demon.co.uk (Hugo Fiennes)
Subject: SCSI & CD-ROM 
Distribution: world
Organization: The Serial Port
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 19:34:42 +0000


In article <1992Dec11.122620.241@unix.brighton.ac.uk> rjb12@unix.brighton.ac.uk writes:

>
>I've got hold of an APPLESC CD-ROM player and I'd like to know if there'd be
>any problems connecting it to any of the Arc SCSI interfaces out there - or
>what the best SCSI i/f is.
>
I have an AppleSC CD150 and this is not supported by CDFS 2.10 I'm afraid.
Pity, because it's a lot better than the (old) Cumana Chinon-mechanism drive.

Hugo

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                     "Did I say that? My lips didn't move..."
Hugo Fiennes - The Serial Port                      altman@cryton.demon.co.uk
                                                or altman@cix.compulink.co.uk
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: pjt-b@minster.york.ac.uk
Newsgroups: comp.sys.acorn.tech
Subject: lha de-archiving
Date: 14 Dec 92 16:20:17 GMT
Organization: Department of Computer Science, University of York, England

I am in need of a utility to de-archive lha compressed files.  Do any versions of
Spark or arcfs handle these?  Or is there any other program in the public domain?

Thanks,

Paul
Newsgroups: comp.sys.acorn.tech
From: dm@cl.cam.ac.uk (Derek McAuley)
Subject: Re: TCP/IP
Organization: U of Cambridge Computer Lab, UK
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 17:06:15 GMT

> Added to
> that the Acorn ethernet III boards are almost, but not quite identical
> to the Atomwide ones.

I think Acorn and Atomwide cards only differ in the way any two Ethernet cards
are required to  -- different Ethernet addresses.
From: wsinda@wsintt02.info.win.tue.nl (Dick Alstein)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.acorn.tech
Subject: Re: Finding the CSD
Date: 14 Dec 92 13:03:36 GMT
Reply-To: wsinda@info.win.tue.nl

mybg@doc.ic.ac.uk (M Y Ben Gershon) writes:
>banks_p@kosmos.wcc.govt.nz writes:

>-   Try this :-
>-Set My$CSD <FileSwitch$<FileSwitch$CurrentFilingSystem>$CSD>

>I couldn't get this to work.  Has anyone else had any luck with it?

Nope. Nesting the variables doesn't work.

Dick
From: gilbertd@cs.man.ac.uk (David Alan Gilbert)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.acorn.tech
Subject: Re: Improved filer
Date: 17 Dec 92 12:24:53 GMT

In <1992Dec15.131442.22909@reks.uia.ac.be> derijkp@reks.uia.ac.be (Peter De Rijk) writes:

<stuff deleted>

>Key shortcuts would be very handy. I believe this has been suggested allready by
>someone. I think it would indeed be easiest to have the same conventions as
>used in other RISC OS programs.
> i.e. ^C copy
>      ^V move
>      ^Z clear selection
>      ^X delete (preferably with a confirmation, something like : 
>                     Are you sure you want to delete all those files? )
>      ^E rename (edit name)
>  and maybe some others.

>A wildcard (^W ?) select would be nice. And some kind of name translation as
>well.

This brings up an interesting point - how are you going
to do hotkeys for a window which doesnt normaly have the
input focus - I have the same problem at the moment.  I know
I can put a grab keys window at the back and things like that,
but if everything did that every key would be used multiply.

>Peter

Dave
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- David Alan Gilbert - gilbertd@cs.man.ac.uk - G7FHJ@GB7CRG                   -
------(Programmers don't sleep - they just park their heads)-------------------
Newsgroups: comp.sys.acorn.tech
From: burke@vxdesy.desy.de
Subject: Re: Improved filer
Organization: (DESY, Hamburg, Germany)
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 13:43:53 GMT

In article <gilbertd.724595093@cs.man.ac.uk>, gilbertd@cs.man.ac.uk (David Alan Gilbert) writes:
> input focus - I have the same problem at the moment.  I know
> I can put a grab keys window at the back and things like that,

You don't need a separate window, you can set the hot-key bit on the filer
window. The problem is more one of clashes between a foreground application and
hot keys (e.g. DeskEdit traps just about every normal keycode). You really need
hot keys to be in a separate range to "normal" keys. This is certainly
possible, as the code returned to an application is a 32-bit number, but how do
you generate them? My KeyChange module (available from Newcastle) does this,
but isn't machine-independent beacuse Acorn don't guarantee that the low-level
keycodes won't change. 

  What's really needed is another key on the keyboard (maybe just use one of
the alt keys so it would work with older machines), and a modified keyboard
driver, plus guidance from Acorn on how hot-keys should be used. This is, of
course, exactly what's done on the Mac; since Acorn were pretty much copying
the Mac interface you might have thought they'd have kept the best bits, but
evidently not ...

e----><----p | Stephen Burke           | Internet: burke@vxdesy.desy.de
 H   H   1   | Gruppe FH1T (Liverpool) | DECnet:   vxdesy::burke (13313::burke)
 H   H  11   | DESY, Notkestrasse 85   | BITNET:   BURKE@DESYVAX or SB2@UKACRL
 HHHHH   1   | 2000 Hamburg 52         | JANET:    sb2@uk.ac.rl.ib
 H   H   1   | Germany                 | Phone:    + 49 40 8998 2282
 H   H 11111 | HERA, the world's largest electron microscope!
Newsgroups: comp.sys.acorn.tech
From: vulch@kernow.demon.co.uk (Anthony Frost)
Reply-To: vulch@kernow.demon.co.uk
Subject: Reading !Run vars
Organization: VCS Kernow
X-Mailer: ReaderS for the Acorn Archimedes
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 23:00:08 +0000

 
  > What the best method of getting hold of a Application's Obey
  > dir'. I'm using Desktop C - so basically I need the path
  > that resspr etc uses to find its resources. At the mo. I'm
  > launching the file with the usual !Run, but with the ugly
  > line... 
 
Why do you need the actual path at all? Can you not just use
"<CADShell$Dir>" directly inside the application? That is what the various
res_ bits do themselves AFAIK.
 
            Anthony
From: dbh@doc.ic.ac.uk (Denis Howe)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.acorn.tech
Subject: Re: Find the root path under RiscOS 3.1
Date: 18 Dec 92 14:16:59
Organization: Computing Department, Imperial College, London, UK
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: wombat.doc.ic.ac.uk
In-reply-to: coxjp@cs.man.ac.uk's message of 15 Dec 92 15:07:54 GMT

In article <COXJP.92Dec15150754@beluga.cs.man.ac.uk>
coxjp@cs.man.ac.uk (Jonathan Cox) wrote:

>Distribution: comp
Get your news software fixed!

>Some time ago somebody posted something about finding the URD or CSD
>from the fileswitch system variables under RiscOS 3.1.

Me and others.

>The only solution I can come up with is:-
>
>set r FileSwitch$<FileSwitch$CurrentFilingSystem>$URD
>seteval r <r>
>set r <FileSwitch$CurrentFilingSystem>:<r>
>
>Is there a better way?

I assume you could use Owen Smith's suggestion of OS_FSControl 37
(canonicalise name) on "$" for this.  If you want to do it all in CLI
commands then your solution is probably as good as my:

Set FS <FileSwitch$CurrentFilingSystem>
SetEval CSD "<FS>:"+FileSwitch$<FS>$CSD

(or replace CSD with URD) though, as I said, the first line is not
necessary so you could do it in one (long) command.
--
Denis Howe <dbh@doc.ic.ac.uk>
So Biggs, you're the idiot who bought all these IBM PCs.  You're fired!
From: /G=Owen/S=Smith/O=SJ-Research/ADMD=INTERSPAN/C=GB/@mhs-relay.ac.uk
Subject: Re: TCP/IP (nsf)
Organization: Yale CS Mail/News Gateway
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 13:02:12 GMT

CDLatham@cen.ex.ac.uk (C.D.Latham) wrote:

>In article <Bz000E.3rt@cen.ex.ac.uk> MMBCorle@cen.ex.ac.uk (Martin Corley)
>writes:

>> I've just installed TCP/IP / Atomwide series III card / A5000, and
>> it's working _fine_, apart from 1 small niggle:
>>
>> When moving a directory _back_ from my NFS filespace to ADFS, I get a
>> constant "already exists" warning from the filer -- for directories
>> and application directories _only_.

Try playing around with your Filer Options. I recommend having Verbose and
Newer on, and Confirm and Force off. I don't remember having any problems
with NFS with these settings. Timestamps can be a problem with NFS though. I
believe that across NFS time can be represented to the nearest thousandth of
a second, whereas on RISC OS it's to the nearest hundredth, and then there's
the resolution of time as stored on disc on the Unix system to bear in mind
(you don't say what flavour of Unix it is). There is some tradeoff
happening. I can't remember exactly, but I believe that in one direction
files/directories which ought to be regarded as having the same timestamp
don't. It's_probably copying from NFS to RISC OS - the NFS files may be
regarded as being newer when they aren't, which might give the warnings you
quote above without the right Filer options.

>Very strange - it doesn't happen with Acorn Ethernet I, A5000 and
>RISC OS 3.0 - I just tried to be certain too.  It seems that there
>slightly different versions of the Internet module in circulation
>and you need to get the right one for your system.  I think that the
>Atomwide card needs Internet 1.05 plus a couple of other little modules
>to make it go.

There are only really two versions of the TCP/IP suite Internet module:
those that support plug in device driver modules (Internet 1.03 and later
"DCI Compatible") and those that don't (the original 1.01). All other minor
variants on these are patches applied to them with !Patch. 1.04 and 1.05 are
simply patched versions of 1.03, and there are also patched versions of 1.01
which still have the number 1.01 - !Patch can tell you if it's been patched
or not. The patches are very important - make sure you're running patched
versions (and a patched NFS - version 1.02) even on RISC OS 2.

There are also the AUN Internet modules. I am not familiar with these.

Owen.
From: /G=Owen/S=Smith/O=SJ-Research/ADMD=INTERSPAN/C=GB/@mhs-relay.ac.uk
Newsgroups: comp.sys.acorn.tech
Subject: Re: Atomwide VIDC Enhancer
Date: 16 Dec 92 22:56:44 GMT
Organization: Yale CS Mail/News Gateway

rsxdp@unicorn.nott.ac.uk (D.Pead) wrote:

>Does anybody know how to "manually" change the clock speed on a VIDC enhancer
>(i.e. how to write to the AUX IO line that the switch is connected to) ?

Get my VIDClock software from Newcastle - there is source code in there
which does what you want. (PS. The software should actually be called
VIDCClock but it managed to lose a C when it went on the server - you have
been warned.) My VIDCClock module actually lets a machine with an Atomwide
VIDC enhancer work properly with A540 format mode definitions.

>Also, as I understand it, the A540 and A5000 must have something like a
>VIDC enhancer built in in order to do SVGA a- does anybody know of any
>"Mode Definer" software (preferably PD) that is A5000/A540 aware?

I think there's some around, but it's a bit thin on the ground.

Owen.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.acorn.tech
From: vulch@kernow.demon.co.uk (Anthony Frost)
Reply-To: vulch@kernow.demon.co.uk
Subject: Re: CFD: Icon names in templates
Organization: VCS Kernow
X-Mailer: ReaderS for the Acorn Archimedes
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 22:37:48 +0000

 
  >> This posting is a Call For Discussion. 
 
  > [long description of tags for icons in template files
  > deleted] 
 
  > You may be interested to know that somebody (whose name
  > escapes my swiss-cheese memory) is writing a new template
  > editor, called !Glazier (from scratch). It's very beta
  > prerelease at the moment, 
 
He is Tim Browse and can often be found on Arcade BBS, I've forwarded the
original to him (Arcade gets the c.s.a groups but many users consider the
volume too high seeing as it is their phone bills!) and said I'll relay if
needed. So far, Glazier is very nice and much more useable than any of the
assorted versions of FormEd which have been thrown up.
 
          Anthony
 
PS Arcade is fido node 2:254/27.0, or phone 081 655 4412, if you want to go
gateway hunting or dialling. Tim can't necessarily reply though.

Newsgroups: comp.sys.acorn.tech
From: troeste@solan.unit.no (Trygve R|ste)
Subject: ObjAsm: Conditional includes
Organization: Norwegian Institute of Technology
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 92 12:37:31 GMT

#ifndef _objasm_problem
#define _objasm_problem

A problem with ObjAsm is the that the headerfile containg the register names, 
only can be included once. If it is included more than one time, you get an
error saying that the registername is already defined.

Here is an example:

; >h.regs

r0 RN 0
r1 RN 1
...

END

; >h.someinclude

GET h.regs

...

END


; >s.some objasm file

GET h.regs
GET h.someinclude

...

END


Now h.regs. will be included twice, resulting in an error. In Ansi-C, this is
cured in an elegant way:

/* >h.include1

#ifndef _h_include1
#define _h_include1

/* body of includefile: */

void function a();
void function b();

struct ...

...

#endif


Now, the body of the includefile is only inserted once. Is something like this
possible in ObjAsm/AAsm?

-Trygve

#endif
From: gilbertd@cs.man.ac.uk (David Alan Gilbert)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.acorn.tech
Subject: Re: CFD: Icon names in templates
Date: 15 Dec 92 17:01:31 GMT

In <4814@svin09.info.win.tue.nl> wsinda@wsintt02.info.win.tue.nl (Dick Alstein) writes:

>Upon which you have to adapt the program. You may have to check
>every line in which an icon is referred to. Of course you can get
>around it partly, by setting a constant or variable (e.g. put a
>line like '#define OK_button 2' in a C header file). But you
>still have to take care that the icon numbers in the template
>definition match those in the program. It becomes a real pain if
>you tend to develop a program stepwise (add a feature, test it,
>add another feature, etc.).

One solution would be imbedding the names in the template
file and then just adding the lookup to the library.

Better would be a combined template/code editor, so that 
you would edit code that should be called etc. when that icon
was activated.  All naming etc. would be taken
care of by the editor.

Dave
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- David Alan Gilbert - gilbertd@cs.man.ac.uk - G7FHJ@GB7CRG                   -
------(Programmers don't sleep - they just park their heads)-------------------
From: CDLatham@cen.ex.ac.uk (C.D.Latham)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.acorn.tech
Subject: Re: Measurement Instruments
Date: 14 Dec 92 14:21:33 GMT
	<1992Dec11.121731.29632@unix.brighton.ac.uk>
Organization: Computer Unit. - University of Exeter. UK

In article <1992Dec11.121731.29632@unix.brighton.ac.uk> rjb12@unix.brighton.ac.uk (Titch) writes:

> There is a company who advertise in BBC Acorn User, Acorn Computing etc who
> sell IEEE488 interfaces for the Archimedes range. Unfortunately I can't 
> remember their name! I saw an advert for them last month, so they haven't
> gone bust (yet!).

The company you are thinking of is still alive and well.  They are:-

Andy Ray
Intelligent Interfaces
PO Box 80
EASTLEIGH
Hampshire
SO5 5YX
Tel: 0703-261514, Fax: 0703-267904.

I have nothing to do with Inteligent Interfaces, I'm just a satisfied
customer.  Their service is excellent and their prices are competitive.

--Christopher.                                  C.D.Latham@exeter.ac.uk
From: adamd@rhi.hi.is (Adam David)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.acorn.tech
Subject: Re: RISC OS3.1 + SCSI problem
Date: 16 Dec 92 21:28:34 GMT

blekken@fwi.uva.nl (Erwin 'Yaaah' Blekkenhorst (I88)) writes:

>I have a Lingenuity SCSI interface (shouldn't have bought it in the first
ace)

I have the same problem as far as this goes. Will there ever be a firmware
upgrade?

>[seagate discs deleted]

I have been using Rodime 200 MB disks. All I had to do to get them working
again under RiscOS 3.1 was delete-poweron the computer and reconfigure the
standard options and the Lingenuity SCSI options. Everything worked first time.
Don't try to use the RiscOS 3 scsi_filer module, it is only for the Acorn
SCSI.

>I know this has got something to do with the disc not being formatted in the
>right RISC OS 3 recognisable way. Reformatting the disc should cure this.

Unless subsequent damage has occured, wiping and reconfiguring the CMOS
values should fix it. If it is very old Lingenuity firmware, they might
have made a mistake that has since been fixed. I think I'm running the
1.3 firmware. Apart from the obvious hassles with directory size and filename
length, the only noticeable omission is that the new method of showing the
disk free-space is not supported. And of course the old gripe that it is
not possible to remove SCSIFSlinks, so the only way to remove a disk icon
after removing a disk unit is to poke the CMOS values directly or
R-poweron and reconfigure.

--
Adam David (adamd@rhi.hi.is)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.acorn.tech
Subject: Re: New filer
From: jwil1@cs.aukuni.ac.nz (TMOTA)
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 05:15:33 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Dept. University of Auckland

[key shortcuts in the filer]
>> i.e. ^C copy
>>      ^V move
>>      ^Z clear selection
>>      ^X delete (preferably with a confirmation, something like :
>>                     Are you sure you want to delete all those files? )
>>      ^E rename (edit name)
>>  and maybe some others.

Most important is ^I for program info, which should bring up the info
window that RISC OS 3.10 hides 3 levels deep... This is pretty good as it
is, but if it actually *COUNTed applications when it was invoked (rather
than claiming they were 2048 bytes in size!) it would be better still...
And for applications, it could also use a !Info file to hold the author's
name, comments, etc. for display in the window, a la Macintosh.

>This brings up an interesting point - how are you going
>to do hotkeys for a window which doesnt normaly have the
>input focus

Well, obviously you don't end up with the caret in filer windows as often
as I do! I thought they might have done something about it in RO 3.10, but
it's still just as easy...
;-)

Simply placing the caret in the window when you select something in it is
all that is necessary, in the normal RISC OS fashion (And we are talking about
a complete replacement for the filer, so it's not as if this would be a
problem).
-- 
_________________  "I'd like to answer this question in two ways:
  /____ _ _/_ __       First in my normal voice, and then
 // / //_//_ /_/       in a silly, high-pitched whine." (Monty Python)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.acorn.tech
From: burke@vxdesy.desy.de
Subject: variables (was: Re: Finding the CSD)
Organization: (DESY, Hamburg, Germany)
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 19:17:01 GMT

In article <DBH.92Dec14185801@wombat.doc.ic.ac.uk>, dbh@doc.ic.ac.uk (Denis Howe) writes:
> Set FS <FileSwitch$CurrentFilingSystem>
> SetEval CSD "<FS>:"+FileSwitch$<FS>$CSD

I have a question - is it possible to append to a macro variable? E.g.:

SetMacro foo <bar>

Now I want to append to foo, to get the effect of:

SetMacro foo <bar>,<thing>

but in a way that doesn't require me to know the current value of foo.
SetMacro foo <foo>,<thing> gives you infinite recursion, while
Set foo <foo>,<thing> stops it being a macro. I think it's impossible (without
writing a program), but am I right?

  Another question, while I'm at it - does anyone know if the use of sprite
memory by SparkFS is compatible with MemFS? Incidentally, if you do use these
together note that memfs redirects <wimp$scrapdir> into itself by default, so
redefine the SparkFS temporary file to avoid problems!

e----><----p | Stephen Burke           | Internet: burke@vxdesy.desy.de
 H   H   1   | Gruppe FH1T (Liverpool) | DECnet:   vxdesy::burke (13313::burke)
 H   H  11   | DESY, Notkestrasse 85   | BITNET:   BURKE@DESYVAX or SB2@UKACRL
 HHHHH   1   | 2000 Hamburg 52         | JANET:    sb2@uk.ac.rl.ib
 H   H   1   | Germany                 | Phone:    + 49 40 8998 2282
 H   H 11111 | HERA, the world's largest electron microscope!
Newsgroups: comp.sys.acorn.tech
From: derijkp@reks.uia.ac.be (Peter De Rijk)
Subject: Re: Improved filer
Organization: U.I.A.
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 13:14:42 GMT

Well, while we're at adding things to the filer, here are some other 
suggestions:
The option menu could use an extra: confirm when an existing file could be 
overwritten. Otherwise just copy.
Key shortcuts would be very handy. I believe this has been suggested allready by
someone. I think it would indeed be easiest to have the same conventions as
used in other RISC OS programs.
 i.e. ^C copy
      ^V move
      ^Z clear selection
      ^X delete (preferably with a confirmation, something like : 
                     Are you sure you want to delete all those files? )
      ^E rename (edit name)
  and maybe some others.

A wildcard (^W ?) select would be nice. And some kind of name translation as
well.

Peter
From: CDLatham@cen.ex.ac.uk (C.D.Latham)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.acorn.tech
Subject: *Title (was: the Wimp_Poll blues)
Date: 11 Dec 92 18:12:11 GMT
	<1992Dec10.185225.20208@abekrd.co.uk>
Organization: Computer Unit. - University of Exeter. UK

In article <1992Dec10.185225.20208@abekrd.co.uk> garyb@abekrd.co.uk (Gary Bartlett) writes:


> So what happened to the backward compatibility with *Title then?

Use of *Title was depreciated under Arthur (I can't remember why now!)

--Christopher                             C.D.Latham@exeter.ac.uk
From: stuartb@spider.co.uk (Stuart Boutell)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.acorn.tech
Subject: RISC OS 3.1 - Making it go quicker.
Summary: Use RmFaster, and it goes quicker!
Date: 14 Dec 92 10:20:39 GMT
Organization: Spider Systems Limited, Edinburgh, UK

I recently fitted RISC OS 3.1, and it felt slower to me too. 

If you want it to 'feel' as fast as it did under RISC OS 2,
RMFaster the following modules before entering the desktop, in
approx. decreasing order of subjective speed improvement:

	WindowManager
	WindowUtils
	FontManager
	MessageTrans

Moving windows, redraws, etc, now seem almost as fast as RISC OS 2,
all for the price of a couple of hundred Kb of RAM. 

Most importantly, the boot-up title page gets drawn _much_ faster. :-)

If you use Ran's version of !Usage, then if you RmFaster FilterManager
as well, !Usage uses half as many CPU cycles obtaining the usage
information.

Seasons Greetings,
Stuart

PS Don't use rmkill on MessageTrans or Resourcefs. Loosing either
of these modules leaves the machine in a very undesirable condition...

-- 
Stuart Boutell, Spider Systems Ltd, Edinburgh - stuartb@spider.co.uk