From: iikkap@mits.mdata.fi (Iikka Paavolainen)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Re: iq<->religion: connection?
Date: 26 Dec 92 22:07:32 GMT
Distribution: world,public
Organization: Microdata Oy, Helsinki, Finland

In article <1992Dec26.152251.12274@jcnpc.cmhnet.org> mam@jcnpc.cmhnet.org (Mike A. McAngus) writes:
>Iikka Paavolainen (iikkap@mits.mdata.fi) wrote:
>: If you find an increasing number of atheists the higher you go in logical
>: intelligence, I think that is much more proof than you can show.
>
>People tend to associate with others who share their values and outlook. So
>Stephen Doe is correct, your anecdotal experiences are not statistically
>significant.

Yes, do tend to associate with people like me, intelligent people, and my best
friends "happen" to be atheists. Some were previously strictly of Hindu faith,
but when I showed them the pure logic of things concerning religion, they
converted to atheism quite fast. It was just a question of realizing the
situation.

>
>:
>: >influential people in Christian history (Luther, Calvin, Wesley etc.)
>: >were *very* intelligent.  In fact, I would think that the intelligent
>:
>: Proof?
>: How about aspects of personality such as courage, sacrifice and valour?
>
>Of what is this a proof?

Why not answer the question instead of evading the point?

>
>:
>: >believer, internalizing the psychological ploys that biblical belief
>: >boils down to, will suffer *more* than the rank and file believer, and
>: >will be more firmly enmeshed in the biblical scheme.
>: >
>: >I have yet to see a satisfactory definition of intelligence, one that
>: >doesn't boil down to how well one does on some arbitrary intelligence
>: >test.
>:
>: Nobody was talking about the whole definition of intelligence, just the
>: logical and abstract thinking part, which is easy to measure.
>
>Where is your statistical study of this area of intelligence?

On my desk.

>
>:
>: >
>: >It isn't illogical to presuppose a supernatural realm, unperceived by
>: >our senses, any more than it is illogical to suppose that the Many
>: >Worlds Hypothesis is a reasonable interpretation of quantum mechanics;
>: >it's just that such speculations are far-fetched.  They have the
>: >virtue (from the believer's perpsective) of being non-disprovable.
>:
>: Illogical? In absence of evidence it seems more like fantasizing.
>: Of course one believes what one has most rational (this is where logical
>: intelligence comes in) proof of. In an environment where Christianity
>: has a stranglehold, other proof is basically unavailable. Thus, he/she
>: will most likely become a Christian (correlation applies).
>
>I think you are begging the question here.

You don't sound very convincing. Try reading my statement again.

>
>: >
>: >I become very uneasy when I see people say "Oh the religious are
>: >dumber (or smarter) than others on average."  It can too easily
>: >degenerate into an ad hominem attack, in which one dismisses beliefs
>: >one disagrees with because one believes one's opponent lacks
>: >intelligence.  Being intelligent is no guarantee that one is right.
>:
>: Then what is? And what is intelligence then?
>
>There are no guarantees.  Who knows, at very great distances from Sol (i.e. 
>many millenia in the past) the laws of physics may be different from what we 
>observe here.  We act as if physics is consistent in the observable universe 
>but we have no guarantees, regardless of our rationality.  Again, I think 
>Stephen Doe is correct, this whole thread is a series of ad hominem arguments.

People tend to believe what they have most proof of. Intelligence is used to
deduce which of the options is the 'most' correct.

>
>: When you talk of these kinds of things, try to be indifferent. You seem so
>: emotionally attached (see message you replied to) to Christianity.
>
>And you're not emotionally wedded to the notion that athiests are more 
>intelligent (since I'm an atheist I should feel complimented, but I think your 
>argument is pointless without proper study).

And the stuff in the Bible is pointless without proper study. Gotcha.

>
>:
>: >
>: >SD
>:
>:
>: --
>:  __/|_  ,  ,--------------------------------------------------------------,
>: /o    \/:--| Iikka Paavolainen / iikkap@mits.mdata.fi, in Espoo, Finland  |
>: \__~__/\:--| "I won't have a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent."    |
>:    `    `  `--------------------------------------------------------------'
>
>I'm armed, ready and waiting.
>-- 
>Mike McAngus 			 | As if I needed Another time consuming hobby.
>(mam@jcnpc.cmhnet.org)		 | 
>The Truth is still the Truth	 | This Post exploits illiterates.
>Even if you choose to ignore it. | 


--
 __/|_  ,  ,--------------------------------------------------------------,
/o    \/:--| Iikka Paavolainen / iikkap@mits.mdata.fi, in Espoo, Finland  |
\__~__/\:--| "I won't have a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent."    |
   `    `  `--------------------------------------------------------------'