From: hartigan@ac.dal.ca
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Foundations... (Was Re: Reply to Steve Adams (LONG!))
Date: 4 Sep 92 18:08:30 -0300
Organization: Dalhousie University, Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

In article <adams.715614187@spssig>, adams@spss.com (Steve Adams) writes:
> hartigan@ac.dal.ca writes:
> 
>>The single trickiest point here is : will you take a look at the matter for
>>yourself and see?  I can tell you free will is a myth, but that means nothing
>>unless you observe the workings of your own mind and see. 
> 
> Right.  Observational propositions.  Currently, my observation tells me
> that I have some form of moral agency, and that I freely use my *subjective* 
> analysis to determine what action to take.  But, it appears to me, at least
> at this point, that I have control over that decision.  It is this control
> that I define as free will, or perhaps better as being a free, moral agent.

You _do_ have a form of moral agency, and you _do_ use your subjective
analysis to determine what action to take...<sigh> I'm going to have to take
another tack on this...

Look - when you make a choice, do you have to CHOOSE to make a choice,
or does it sort of "just happen?" 

When you are searching for an answer to a question, struggling to remember
something, do you consciously _will_ the fact to emerge from memory ("Fact!
Yes, you! Emerge from memory now. I so will it!") or does it
"just come to you" whenever it damn well feels like - maybe AFTER the 
exam is over...
 
When you are trying to understand something, is it a conscious act of will
to grasp a new concept? Can you say, "Ok, this will become clear to me
in 3 seconds, I, the free agent, so will it!" or do you have to wait until it
 "clicks?"

When you think "Here I stand, a free moral agent!" do you have to 
DECIDE to think those thoughts, or do they sort of just come out of
nowhere? (perhaps triggered by previous thoughts...)

When you like something, do you have to say "I, the free agent, decide to
like this thing!"  or do you just like the darn thing? 

Have you ever thought, "Gee it would sure be convenient if I DIDN'T love my
wife/dog/mailman/mother!  I, the free agent, hereby freely choose NOT to 
love he/she/it any more!"  If not, try it sometime!

If a song you hate comes on the radio, can you say "I, the free 
agent, hereby decide to LIKE this song!" And have it happen? 

When you hear a joke, do you have to say "I decide that that was funny! 
I think I'll use my free agency and choose to laugh! Ha! Ha!" ?? Or do
somethings just seem funny and make you laugh?

The myth of free will comes from the myth of the decision. There is no 
such thing as a decision, not in the sense that a free will-ist would
say there is. There is only the process _which is you_ taking it's course.
In light of the myth of free will, we call certain aspects of this
process "decisions," and our myth of free will requires that we 
characterize these events as being different from every other internal
event. This is pure bushwah.  "Decisions" happen. Just like thoughts, moods,
feelings happen. The "controlling agent" that you feel yourself to be is
just another manifestation of the ongoing process which is _you_. 

In other words, do you have to decide to feel you are a "controlling agent?"
Or does that feeling "just arise" when you examine this matter? 

If you do have to decide to feel that, then who makes the decision to 
decide THAT? And who make the decision to decide _THAT_? 

>>> Observationally, your ideas might just be correct, but I think that is just
>>> perception. 
> 
>>An interesting admission! The only response I could make would be: if you
>>want to know if they are correct, watch your own mind and see. 
> 
> Alas, this is all one can do.  Granted, I still find myself clinging to
> sets of notions and values that have been built up over time.  The three
> components: frame of reference, self-image and values form the basis for
> subjective analysis.  Getting to objectivity is tough, and very few people
> accomplish it.  It seems near impossible to be totally objective about
> anything, but the closer the better.

Don't worry about "objectivity."  There is no such thing as an "objective
conclusion."  Look without interpreting. Do you need to have a "world
view" to see the sun shine?  Forget your values, forget your self-image,
it's just an illusion anyway, your frame of reference is a convenience, 
it shouldn't be a ball and chain...chuck it, too, if it interferes with
looking. What's left when you chuck all this stuff?  Look and see!

>>Soooo....the question really is: are Sean's observations accurate?
> At this point, I don't believe that your observations are 100% accurate.
> Although they do seem to explain things, I don't know that they are
> accurate.  Ockham's Razor says we should chose the simplest answer when
> there are multiple competing answers, unless and until the simple answer
> falls apart.  Which of our answers is simpler? ;-)

Ack....rationalism to the max.....The rational mind is a fine servant,
but a _hell_ of a master! And I'm choosing my terms carefully... :)

What is wrong with us that we can no longer look, we theorize 
instead?  I am not trying to construct a new explanation of how we think.
My words have only one purpose: to act as guideposts for you. They exist
only to point you towards what I see, so you can see it too. And I mean
_see_ not _know_.  I am not looking for "answers..." I'm looking to
see "what is."  I don't care two hoots whether I'm free or not - but I want 
to see what's what. Do you?
 
>>If we have no views, it is impossible to judge, as one has no standards to
>>judge by...judgement ceases to be an issue at that point. "Good" ceases
>>meaning "acceptable to my world view" and starts meaning <good> (as in
>>"I feel good...")  Is this another point, after all?
> 'Good' is that which fits our perception of what is agreeable to our
> values and self-image, and is consistant with our frame of reference.  Of
> course, frames of reference are notriously full of gaps and fallacies.
> Making subjective judgement exactly that...subjective!

Come on - when you taste a chocolate ice cream and it tastes good, it has to 
be agreeable to your values, self-image, and frame of reference?? 
When you just feel good, for no reason, it has to fit your world view??
You should be very glad that your outlook on life is pure fiction! Things
would be pretty bleak if it were absolute.

>>Wise guy, eh? :)  Still, I think the point should be pretty clear. In fact,
>>I am a bit puzzled that you apparently don't see it...
> 
> Since our perceptions are base on subjectivity, it shouldn't surprise you
> at all!  Our perceptions often blind us to the 'truth', whatever that is!

I would say our "CONceptions" keep us from looking and see the truth, because
we'd rather look at them instead. And sometimes it seems we've forgotten
that we CAN look without concptualizing about what we see.

> ;-)  I mean, after all, my mind works like anyone elses, complete with its
> prejudices, biases and values...discarding them (or at least shelving them)
> to gain objectivity is tough.

Okay - but if you want to see what's what, you're going to have to stop
doing all your predjudices, biases and values. I'm not saying it isn't hard,
I'm not saying it won't take you years to even get started at it...but 
if you want to stop living in illusion, that is what is required. 
Hey - I don't make the rules! :)

>>So...if you can...step outside your frame of reference for a while. Put it
>>on the shelf, it'll be there when you get back...:)
> I've actually done this to some extent...but haven't manage to completely
> do it.  Too many outside factors.

If we step outside our frame of reference into another one, we have 
gained nothing. I know this sounds weird, but we have to stop "doing"
frames of references. Just not do them anymore. This takes a special
kind of effort...but learning to make this effort is necessary if we
are to wake up from our long, restless, uncomfortable dream.

>>maybe I'm just 
>>a disembodied solipsistic brain being fed intravenously on Alpha 
>>Centauri by small green men...you can never be sure about these things...
> So how is Elvis?  [sorry, I couldn't resist..Bloom County - remember?]

Oh, he's fine. By the way - I've got his brain, now. That's how I know
all this stuff. Wanna hear me sing?  "I'm just a hunka hunka burnin' love...
YAHH!!!" Doo da dee dum... 

>>Re: foundations
> 
>>Have you thought about the Restored Pythagorean Unreformed Church...??? :)
>>(see post on this subject for details...!!!)
> 
> Yes, and I rejected it...;-)  Just as I rejected the Pythagoran Reformed
> Church. ;-)

You'll regret that one, bub, when you're standing before the Divine
Dodecahedron and he asks - "Why should I let you into heaven?"

>>>So, just how easy would it be for you to dump this kind of basic
>>>foundation?  See what I mean?
> 
>>Comrade, even if you decide you WANT to dump your foundation you will
>>find that that's just the START of the fun...! 
> 
> Perhaps this is the crux of the matter...fear of the unknown...

Fear of the unknown has to be balanced against love of the Unknowable.
Whichever of these two forces triumphs in you will determine your
fate.  I don't like to use this kind of language normally, but
that first line sounded so...so...so....DEEP that I just had to
say it...! :)

>>Yes, I think it does...my parents would flip if they knew what I really
>>thought. They would be very hurt. Devastated, in the case of my mother.
>>I just keep my mouth shut and smile a lot...one might hope for better,
>>but, as Dogen Kigen put it, flowers die, even though we love them; and weeds
>>grow everywhere, even though we do not love them.
> 
> Little tougher for me...I couldn't care less what my parents think.  It's
> closer to home: my wife.  And it's kind of hard to hide your philosphy from
> someone you live with intimately...know what I mean?  She has expressed her
> concern about my 'quest'.."You get too deep into things"...no kidding.
> She'd freak if she read the stuff I was writing with Paul Harvey on
> Genesis.  Or parts of this conversation.  Gack.

That would indeed be harder, I think. A tough row to hoe...:(
Sounds like she might find it a bit frightening. What if he changes? she
might be thinking. Or maybe she sees you changing already. I hope things
turn out okay for you both...

> Them:  Immaginary people.  Discussions with these 'people' he doesn't know 
>        and has never met.  Get the strait-jacket.  This guy's hallucinating!
> ;-)

There is something a bit weird about this whole business, isn't there?
 
>>Free will AND an actual, logical possibility of evil - in the same creation!
> Nope.  See aboove ;-)
        
You know, I think you're ALMOST right about this. 
You're insisting that if nobody wants to sin, then there is no chance for sin
to exist. I agree with this. BUT you also insist that this means that free will
has therefore been violated.  

HERE is where I disagree. Your argument rests on the assumption that
if people will always make the same choice, then they do NOT have free will. By
definition. I am saying - people with free will CAN always make the same
choice, providing that they remain motivated to keep making the same
decision. God provides the motivation and the free will - voila, no sin.
So. I think our disagreement resolves into a debate on the nature of 
(surprise!) free will!  You insist that a motivated free will is not 
really free. (although it eludes me how an unmotivated free will could
choose at all...) 

Is this a fair assessment of the situation?  Now - you correct MY erroneous
ways for a change! :)

>>Howzat??? :)  (pant, puff, pant, puff)  Only the people who freely choose
>>salvation get created!  I realize this aspect of the discussion
>>is academic at this point...still, I'd LOVE to get you to admit that
>>this is right! (puhhhhleeeez???) :)
> Fat chance, guy!  Not yet!  Give me some time....;-)

<sniffle>
 
>>"Jesus said: `He who seeks shall find; he who finds shall be troubled. He who
>>is troubled shall be astonished, and he will rule over the All.'"

I like this quote...it puts an interesting spin on what the life of the
true Christian will be like, according to the Son of Man himself.
 
>>(...probably not an exact quote - my brother swiped my copy of Gospel of Thomas
>>so I had to do that one from memory. Can you believe that? Stealing a man's
>>only copy of the Good News!!! I'm gonna get that guy...)
> 
> "Revenge is mine, says the Lord"...;-)  God will get him for that!

You're right...safer to leave it with Him! :) 

Sean Hartigan
hartigan@ac.dal.ca