HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jchokey@leland.Stanford.EDU (James Alexander Chokey)
Subject: Re: Eowyn 
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 92 21:22:10 GMT

In article <watson.724523748@space.sce.carleton.ca> watson@sce.carleton.ca (Stephen Watson) writes:

>
>Good Grief! Are we REALLY complaining about the fact that a man of
>Tolkien's generation WASN'T a modern feminist?

	In a word-- no.  Nobody here seems to be complaining that Tolkien 
wasn't a modern feminist, and certainly nobody here condemning him for not 
being that which he couldn't be.  In my posting, I didn't condemn Tolkien for 
constructing his characters--  male, female, or otherwise-- the way he did or 
even suggest that he should have constructed them differently.  All I did
was to describe what he actually does with them.  Why do you find that so 
upsetting?


>  For most of history,
>and a lot of mythology, the sex roles have been pretty much divided as
>Jim says.  Probably there was once a good reason for this (greater male
>physical strength for e.g.), and probably the dichotomy outlived its
>usefulness, but so what?  It's just a bloody STORY for crying out
>loud!  For what purpose are we endlessly analyzing this great work of
>literature on these themes?  
	
	Because they're very much a part of Tolkien's fiction--  and this
is a Tolkien newsgroup.  I don't recall seeing a charter saying that this
newsgroup is only for saying things that make us feel warm and happy about
Tolkien.  If you're not interested in more serious and more controversial 
discussions, you can skip over them and read only the ones you want to read. 
Nothing's preventing you or anyone else from starting a thread on whatever 
Tolkien-related theme you want to talk about.  

	(BTW, I really enjoyed the irony of "it's just a bloody STORY for
crying out loud" in one sentence being followed by "this great work of
literature" in the next.)  :-)


	--  Jim C. <jchokey@leland.stanford.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: vaynth@rs6404.ecs.rpi.edu (Helen Alexandera Vayntrub)
Subject: Question: don't read if you don't want to help
Reply-To: vaynth@rpi.edu
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy, NY.
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 23:39:47 GMT


Keywords: 
Sorry, I've never posted an artical before and I don't know what I'm doing.  So
please don't excpect much.  I'm a pledge and I have a pledge question about
tolkien.  Here it is:  "What are the names of the two swords found in the Troll"
and then I can't read the next word.  He said that the answer is in the first
chapter of The Hobbit, but I thought I'd cheat and ask you instead.  If you
would be kind enough to send me the answer I would be very thankful.
Thank you for you time, I'm sorry if I've waster it.

lenerd

Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: s_perera@iastate.edu (Sunil M Perera)
Subject: Re: Should LOTR Movie be Made?
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, IA
Distribution: na
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1992 04:03:23 GMT

In article <BzHqoM.Csr@acsu.buffalo.edu> swann@acsu.buffalo.edu (Stephen Swann) writes:
>In article <BzA9wB.5zD@unix.amherst.edu> jdliss@unix.amherst.edu (Jeff Liss) writes:
>>IMO, the toughest task of a LOTR movie would be to get a director
>>who will 'stay true to the spirit of the books' and not turn it into
>>his own personal statement, while yet being telnted enough to do 
>>justice to the books.  Anyone have any suggestions?  I don't think
>>Coppola could do it (not after DRACULA), nor Kubrick (see THE SHINING);
>>perhaps Bertolucci or Scott?
>
>Terry Gilliam (_Brazil_, _The Adventures of Baron Von Munchausen_, 
>               _The Fisher King_).
>
>Having seen what a fantastic he job did with the near-plotless
>_Adventures of Baron Von Munchausen_, I can only imagine what he could
>do if he actually had good material to work with...  
>
>_Munchausen_ was an almost unparalleled fantasy film, from a purely
>aesthetic standpoint (it's really too bad the plot sucked).  But
>based on what he achieved with that film, I bet Gilliam could make a 
>_brilliant_ LotR.

 What about Dino DeLoriantis (spelling?) who did DUNE?
From: laurence@cco.caltech.edu (Dustin Lee Laurence)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Technology and Morality in LOTR
Date: 17 Dec 1992 22:18:04 GMT
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
NNTP-Posting-Host: sandman.caltech.edu

steph@perseus.cs.uiuc.edu (Dale Stephenson) writes:


>I think the ring is an *entity*, trapped in an object.  Not passive, and
>possessed of semi-free will.

It's certainly not an entity of it's own.  Like the Elven rings, it is at
least partly a piece of Sauron's own innate power.  The advantage of the
rings is that they allow their maker greater use of that power; the
disadvantages, of course, are a major part of the plot.  What entity-like
attributes it has derive from the fact that it is part of Sauron, given
semi-independent existence.

-- 
Dustin Laurence       "As sensitive and broad-minded humans, we must never
                       allow ourselves to be in any way judgmental of the
laurence@alice         religious practices of other people, even when these
caltech.edu           people clearly are raving space loons." -- Dave Barry
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: lewchuk@cs.UAlberta.CA (Michael Lewchuk)
Subject: Re: Balrogs, Nazgul, and Sauron
Organization: University of Alberta, Edmonton, Canada
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 20:15:06 GMT

erikt@sci.kun.nl (Erik van de Tier) writes:
>Wayne J. Broughton writes:
>>I thought the Nazgul were actually trying to take possession of the
>>Ring.  What good would it have done them just to kill Frodo?  They
>They weren't going to kill Frodo. If the knifepoint would have reached
>Frodo's heart, he wouldn't be killed but would have become one off the
>Nazgul. In that case they would have the ring (end of the story)!

Also, from the way the story unfolded, I believe the Nazgul were actually
repelled by the Ring.  The Orc in Minas Morgul actually ran from Sam when
he was holding the Ring.  I would assume that the Nazgul were included in
the legions of Mordor that the Ring held power of fear over.
I think that while Frodo's will lasted, they could not physically take
the Ring but instead had to rely on other methods.
It seemed that Frodo's weakness at Weathertop had put him "half in the
Wraith-world himself" so that they could capture him, but his will recovered
in time to remove the Ring while the other four companions drove off the
wraiths with fire.

					Michael Lewchuk
					lewchuk@cs.UAlberta.CA
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: djweisbe@unix.amherst.edu (David Weisberger)
Subject: Re: Movie Roles ....
Organization: large
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL7]
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 21:43:31 GMT

Richard Vance (urmvance@memstvx1.memst.edu) wrote:
: In article <539@blue.cis.pitt.edu>, genetic+@pitt.edu (Dr. Dave) writes:
: > And the kicker...
: > 
: > Frodo:		Linda Hunt.  No, really.  If she can do Billy Kwan in
: > 		"Year of Living Dangerously", she can do Frodo.  The problem
: > 		is finding *another* dozen or so hobbits...
: 
:Well, what all the little folks in _Willow_? They could be adapted fairly
:easily to the part. I've always thought they were the closest thing to hobbits
:in recent movie history.

So you noticed that too?  I thought _Willow_ was the most amazing, blatant,
brazen rip-off of Tolkien and Star Wars.

--
Davebo                    "Don't believe I'm taken in by stories I have heard.
                           I just read the Daily News and swear by every word."
djweisbe@unix.amherst.edu
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: warren@nysernet.org (Warren Burstein)
Subject: Re: Balrogs, Nazgul, and Sauron
Reply-To: warren@nysernet.org
Organization: Mail to News Gateway at Wang Labs
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 23:52:17 GMT

In <rwang.724206600@husc8> rwang@husc8.harvard.edu (Richard Wang) writes:
>	One thing I always wondered about: if the Ringwraiths before
>ensnarement and death were mighty lords, rulers of men, why did they
>suddenly turn craven and act more like herd animals than powerful servants
>of Sauron?  They wouldn't do *anything* alone, except for the Witch-king,
>and were driven off Weathertop by a lone Ranger (albeit the chief) and a
>few half-sized farmfolk.  I mean, they *couldn't* have been such wimps in
>life, or they wouldn't have received a Ring; did they actually *lose* a
>measure of power in becoming Ringwraiths?

The Witch-King ruled the realm of Angmar, drove Earnur from the field
of battle (only withdrawing when confronted with Glorfindel, would you
mess with someone who once killed a Balrog?), and directed the Siege
of Gondor.  He doesn't have much trouble finding and stabbing Frodo
(which is all he thinks that he needs to do) on Weathertop.  They do
fear fire, (why?) and since they have nothing else to do up there,
they get out of there.

The others do seem rather absent of identity.  Perhaps after living
with Sauron for an Age and a half one's personality gets a bit faded.
He might also not encourage signs of individuality.
-- 
/|/-\/-\       The entire ***		Jerusalem
 |__/__/_/     is a very crowned theft.
 |warren@      But the farmer
/ nysernet.org is ***.
From: klaus@diku.dk (Klaus Ole Kristiansen)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Other series?
Date: 15 Dec 92 09:51:23 GMT
Organization: Department of Computer Science, U of Copenhagen

rwang@husc8.harvard.edu (Richard Wang) writes:

>About the other fantasy series you were mentioning, however, I myself favor:

>Fred Saberhagen's *Book of Swords*.

Anything by Saberhagen is good, and Book of Swords is very good, but it
is as good as Empire of the East. I would recomend reading Empire of the
East before Book of Swords, though is is not important.

>Ursula LeGuin's Earthsea Trilogy.  

WARNING: If you are like me, you will not be able to put down
this one, even to get some lunch, from you start on volume 2
until you have finished volume 3.

>Raymond Feist's series; can't remember what it's called.  Starts with
>"Magician: Apprentice" and "Magician: Master", moves on to "Silverthorn"
>and "A Darkness at Sethanon." 

Good, light reading. Not in the same class as the 3 above. The
series is called Riftwar. There is a sequel called "Prince
of the Blood".

>Also, the "Empire" series about Mara of the
>Acoma, set in the Tsurani Empire, is pretty good reading.

I liked these better than Riftwar. Authors are Feist and Wurts (sp?)

>David Eddings has two series entitled "Belgariad" and "Malloreon". 

Yet another step down in quality. I enjoyed reading these, but they
are not in the same class with Daughter of the Empire or even Magician.

Another recomendation: The Broken Sword by Poul Anderson. This is
written at about the same time as TLotR, and contains a lot of
the same ingredients (Elves, trolls and of course a broken sword),
but is a very different story.

Klaus O K
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: nancy@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Nancy Lebovitz)
Subject: Re: Eowyn
Organization: UDel, School of Life & Health Sciences
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 03:09:09 GMT

In re characters being "settled down" by their author once they've 
fulfilled their function in the story: This could lead to a neat
paranoid hypothesis/story premise--if a character isn't killed, 
settled down or distracted by further adventures, it invades the
author's reality, bent on revenge for what the author has put it
through. :-)

Nancy Lebovitz
nancy@genie.slhs.udel.edu



Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: hammekr@eng.auburn.edu (Kenneth R. Hammett)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Sorry to belabor this, but...
Date: 16 Dec 92 17:43:57 GMT
Reply-To: hammekr@eng.auburn.edu
Organization: Auburn University Engineering

In article 15641@netcom.com, solovay@netcom.com (Andrew M. Solovay) writes:
>In article <carl-141292183712@mac7.gsfc.nasa.gov> carl@class.gsfc.nasa.gov (Carl F. Hostetter) writes:
>>> 
>>> Thus spake rwang@husc8.harvard.edu (Richard Wang):
>>> >And what
>>> >about his original name--Iarwain Ben-Adar, if my memory serves me correctly?
>>> >Can one of the linguists out there tell me what that means?
>>
>>The name is Sindarin.
>>"Iarwain" is 'oldest'.
>>"Ben" must be 'without'.
>>"Adar" is 'father' (cf. Quenya _atar_ 'father' in _Ataratani_ 'Fathers
>>of Men').
>
>Of course, that's not his *name*, original or otherwise; that's
>just what the elves call him. We don't know that he ever calls
>himself "Iarwain Ben-Adar". So "oldest and fatherless" is just
>another educated guess.
>
>Anyway, "oldest" might just mean "oldest of his kind"; and
>"fatherless" might mean that he was created by Eru directly, and
>was not the child of a created being. (There are/were several
>Elves, Men, and Dwarves who could accurately be called
>"fatherless".)
>-- 
>Andrew Solovay    


Even though the word has a really Celtic look to me (must be the
"w")  it also brings to mins the Hebrew patronymic "Ben".  Are there
possible Hebrew connections for the rest of it?



*>*<*>*<*>*<*>*<*>*<*>*<*>*<*>*<*>*<*>*<*>*<*>*<*>*<*>*<*>*<*>*<*
*                                                               *
*  Rich Hammett                      "Why does it happen?       *
*  Rich.Hammett@eng.auburn.edu         Because it happens.      *
*                                        Roll the Bones!"       *
*                                                               *
*>*<*>*<*>*<*>*<*>*<*>*<*>*<*>*<*>*<*>*<*>*<*>*<*>*<*>*<*>*<*>*<*
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: craig@b11.b11.ingr.com (Craig Presson)
Subject: Re: Eowyn
Organization: Intergraph Corp. Huntsville, AL
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 15:24:02 GMT

rao@moose.cccs.umn.edu (Rao Akella) writes:



>Here's my reading of Eowyn acting as she did.
[slightly melodramatic but factual precis deleted]

>I see nothing very special about her dressing up as a man to ride to Gondor. 
>She was frustrated in her attempts to join them, and every time she broached
>the topic, everyone told her that "they also serve who stand and wait," and
>that duty bade her stay behind at Dunharrow to take care of the civilians.  Her
Her duty was quite clear, as she had been left in charge. I don't
believe there's any mention of her delegating this, either, or how she
did so without arousing any suspicions.

>only recourse was to disguise herself as a man to escape being spotted by
>Theoden and being forced to return home.
_And_, in a typical Tolkien twist, she who is riding to battle unbidden
becomes the vehicle for Merry, who has also just been sent to the home
guard by Theoden.

[...]
>I'm prepared to back up every single opinion with quotes from the canon, if
>need be.
Hurray for that. Everyone raise your right hand and say along with Rao ...

>What do you think, Sirs?
I think there are a minimum of three distinct but valid readings for
every well-formed question about LOTR -- and of course many more for
every poorly-formed one :-), so we'll be here a while ...

-- Craig Presson
  All that is gold does not glitter,
  Not all those who wander are lost;
From: carl@class.gsfc.nasa.gov (Carl F. Hostetter)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Bombadil's name (was Re: Sorry to belabor this, but...)
Date: 16 Dec 92 20:58:14 GMT
Followup-To: alt.fan.tolkien
Organization: NASA/GSFC

In article <JJAS.92Dec16153103@acs.nntp-read.bu.edu>,
jjas@acs.nntp-read.bu.edu (Jason Stephenson) wrote:
> 
> Thus spake rwang@husc8.harvard.edu (Richard Wang):
> >And what
> >about his original name--Iarwain Ben-Adar, if my memory serves me correctly?
> >Can one of the linguists out there tell me what that means?
> 
> Thus spoke genetic+@pitt.edu (Dr. Dave):
> Not a linguist, but...
> 
> "Oldest and fatherless" is how it is rendered in the text.  "Oldest, son of
> none" might be more literal.  (Corrections?)
> 
> Thus speak I:
> No corrections, just wanted to state my agreement with Dr. Dave.
> "Oldest son of none (or no one)" would not only be more literal, but
> more poetic.

It would in fact be not at all literal and wrong to boot. 
Iarwain Ben-Adar is literally "Oldest Without-Father".

|===================================================================|
|         Carl F. Hostetter      carl@class.gsfc.nasa.gov           |
|                                                                   |
|                    Ars longa, vita brevis.                        |
|          The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne.            |
|  "I wish life was not so short," he thought.  "Languages take     |
|  such a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about."  |
|===================================================================|
From: genetic+@pitt.edu (Dr. Dave)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Sorry to belabor this, but...
Date: 14 Dec 92 22:28:29 GMT
Organization: Department of Industrial Engineering

Thus spake rwang@husc8.harvard.edu (Richard Wang):
>And what
>about his original name--Iarwain Ben-Adar, if my memory serves me correctly?
>Can one of the linguists out there tell me what that means?

Not a linguist, but...

"Oldest and fatherless" is how it is rendered in the text.  "Oldest, son of
none" might be more literal.  (Corrections?)

-- 
       David Tate        |"Out of the dugout endlessly swinging,
 dtate@unix.cis.pitt.edu | Out of the manager's throat, the sound fundamentals,
 Prof. of Story Problems | Out of the six-month season..."            
 Member ORSA, TIMS, SABR | 	Walt "Lefty" Whitman
From: rfd@po.CWRU.Edu (Richard F. Drushel)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: A question of respect and form
Date: 12 Dec 1992 13:49:10 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: rfd@po.CWRU.Edu (Richard F. Drushel)
NNTP-Posting-Host: slc5.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, mvoorhis@granite.WPI.EDU (Michael C Voorhis) says:

>In article <Bz4HLq.7xI@unixhub.SLAC.Stanford.EDU> kelsey@jupiter.SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Mike Kelsey) writes:
>>    In this group, as in many, the regular posters are developing conventional
>>    abbreviations for the common subject matter.  I have seen, for example,
>
>Well, it's important to get these concerns off of ones' chest, so the
>saying goes.  I understand your concern, but think that `colloquial'
>writing is fine in most places; formal writing has its place in essays and
>other `presentation-quality' preparations.  A message posted here is one of
>millions posted through the net-- a `tear in the rain' as Roy Batty said.
>
>Why should we, the authors of the millions of messages, take the time to
>make each utterly perfect, when they will only be forgotten by the next
>day?  I suppose they will all be saved in some huge database, somewhere;
>nevertheless when writing one of what will most likely be ten or fifteen
>news-posts in one day, my objective is generally to get the idea through as
>simply as possible.  Despite the fact that you do not approve of
>abbreviations such as `LoTR' (Meaning `Lord of the Rings'), you do not fail
>to understand its meaning.  Therefore, why should we work more than is
>necissary?  Our messages are obviously getting across.

	I don't think the original poster was upset about abbreviations
like LOTR.  Re-reading his post, I think he was asking that Tolkien's
last name not be shortened to Tolk.  This I would agree with.

	Now, if you *MUST* abbreviate Tolkien's name, then why not JRRT,
since that is what he himself used?  Just a suggestion...
-- 
Richard F. Drushel ****** Ph.D. in Developmental Biology as of 4:45 PM 9211.20
rfd@po.cwru.edu ** Cleveland FreeNet ** Co-Sysop, Coleco ADAM Forum ** Go Z80!
"The bright and blinding sunlight shines so hotly on the trash-heaps that mere
undigested food and snotty Kleenex flow as rivers of milk and honey." - c.5253
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: zelevin@athena.mit.edu (Vladimir V Zelevinsky)
Subject: Re: Balrogs, Nazgul, and Sauron
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 04:17:44 GMT

In article <lewchuk.724190524@therien>, lewchuk@cs.UAlberta.CA (Michael Lewchuk) writes:
|> rene@iesd.auc.dk (Rene Boe Soerensen) writes:
|> >I think you have mistaken the Nazgul's for the Ringwraith's.  The
|> >Nazgul's were the flying beast's the Ringwraith's rode upon when Frodo
|> >and his company came nearer to Mordor (at least if my memory serves me
|> >correct at this late hour.)
|> >Rene Boe >--
|> > | Rene Boe Sorensen              |    ////   | E-mail : rene@iesd.auc.dk     |
|> 
|> I believe the Nazgul are the Ringwraiths.  Nazgul is probably some Elvish
|> word: Nazg (ring) + gul/ul (wraith/spirit?).
|> 
|> 					Michael Lewchuk
|> 					lewchuk@cs.UAlberta.CA

Sure - but 'Nazg' means 'Ring' not in the Elven language but in the
Dark Speech.  You can look in the Book 2, Chapter 2, Gandalf
speech on the councel of Elrond.

Michael, all the best.
Rene, venlig hilsen.

--
Vladimir.
zelevin@athena.mit.edu
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: genetic+@pitt.edu (Dr. Dave)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Should LOTR Movie be Made?
Date: 20 Dec 92 23:44:12 GMT
Organization: Department of Industrial Engineering

Thus spake ferret@paradox.engin.umich.edu (kenneth r lipka):

>In article <1gqltdINN12a@uwm.edu>, paulg@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Paul A Gunderson) writes:

>> Whenever I think of LotR being made into a movie, I think "Dune" and become
>> very, very afraid.  I have no doubt that there are many people who loved
>> that movie, but I have yet to find a die-hard fan of the Dune books who does
>> anything but shudder when the movie is mentioned.

>	I'll have you know that I am a die-hard fan of the entire over-blown and convoluted "Dune" series and I think the movie is a quite adequate presentation of the book.  Especially without it becoming massively overblown as the books have become.


Nothing personal, Kenneth, but I can't give much weight to the aesthetic
judgements of someone who liked *all* of the Dune books...

Count me in the "_Dune_ was great, everything went downhill from their, the
movie was atrocious" category.

-- 
       David Tate        |"Out of the dugout endlessly swinging,
 dtate@unix.cis.pitt.edu | Out of the manager's throat, the sound fundamentals,
 Prof. of Story Problems | Out of the six-month season..."            
 Member ORSA, TIMS, SABR | 	Walt "Lefty" Whitman
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: richard@fwi.uva.nl (Richard Carels)
Subject: Re: Led Zeppelin (Tolkien Music) [and RUSH]
Organization: FWI, University of Amsterdam
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 12:22:45 GMT

In article <rwang.724362020@husc8> rwang@husc8.harvard.edu (Richard Wang) writes:
> stas@netcom.com (Stanislav Malyshev) writes:
> 
> >Enya's _Shepherd Moons_ album has a track called "Lorien" (or was it
> >"Lothlorien"..)
> 
> Yes, indeed; Lothlorien, track 9 on CD I think.  Pretty decent music,
> actually--if you like that sort of thing.  Any other music with Tolkien
> references?
Yes, I have a record called Lord of the Rings, by Bo Hansson. I think he is
from Sweden, but I have to look that up at home. He also made a record
inspired by Watership Down, but I think that is not as good as LOTR. Maybe
that is because I already knew the music by Paul Simon for the movie. 
His music inspired by LOTR is very much in style with the books.

RC.

-- 

Richard Carels,  University of Amsterdam, Computer Science Department
                 Kruislaan 403, 1098 SJ AMSTERDAM
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien