From: cullen@ac.dal.ca
Newsgroups: rec.audio.pro
Subject: Re: The merits of Power amps!  was: Peavey, etc!
Date: 12 Dec 92 23:17:20 -0400
Organization: Dalhousie University, Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

I'm even, and Chris is odd (Not that kind of ODD, dammit!) 
> (NOTE;  the text IS heavily edited!)
> 
> Mr. Cullen and I trade jabs!

Out come the boxing gloves. (and no one calls me Murray, let alone Mr. Cullen)
 
> I submitt an change in my diagnosis:  "Peavyaphobia" 
> Those who suffer fromt it are deluded to believe that thair
> imformation on the topic is the right information.....This .phobia can
> have one of many prefixes and applies to all facets of life, as we
> know it!  :-) 

But I don't dislike everything, or even particularly their amps. I just 
feel that there are better amps out there for less money
(at least in Halifax).  However, I do like those little 112's. 
two way box, 12 and 1 inch drivers, not bad, for the price.

> And for-the-record:  I will never ask anyone to believe anything I say. 
> It's up the the readers of this forum to decide.
   
As for me, BELIEVE WHAT I SAY, FOR I AM THE OMNISCIENT(?) AUDIO GOD
(Scuffle, scuffle) There, sorry about that, more of my psychiatric problems 
attempting to overcome me.8^)
 
> My amp racks weigh in at 250 lbs each...

Some load impedance questions deleted.

> We then go at the weight issue and I speak of running a 2500 watt P.A
> from one wall outlet!
> 
>>Nothing is _wrong_ with a heavy amp, but I do not want to lift the
>>rack on to stage, or roll it on the truck or or otherwise expend energy
>>in gas, money, time, or a wrenched back moving the goddamned things.
> 
> Yea I do complain about it to.  I do have a lift gate on the sound
> truck that mitigates the lifting issue.

But, Audio guys aren't allowed to have those! The agent is responsible
for finding the cheapest truck available, and it doesn't even have a ramp.

>  And I rarely work a job where
> I an required to lift an amp rack alone so two of us usualy can manage
> the racks without a lot of problem......

I don't know, its still a big lift onto a four foot stage.

Ohm's law and power equation deleted.
 
> We _are_ talking about audio here aren't we.  Crest factors of about
> 12 dB and even if it's compressed we don't sustain long term power. 
> It is my firm belief that the storage and supply cabablities of the
> caps in the supply contribute a great deal to the "goodness" of amps
> with linear power supplies.

I'll put it this way. Give me a thrash band or an alternative band
and 100 people in a slam pit, and I'll give you two to one that that
20A breaker is the first thing to go, with your rig.

> Also I do count on the fact that a circuit breaker will pass more than it's
> rated current.  It does have to time to cool a bit.....  In between
> peaks!  :-)

Ath this point, I start wishing for a 3x100A distro.8-)
 
>>Besides, assuming your triamped CS800 rig, on most source, you are only 
>>really pushing real power to the bins and mids, with very little power
>>going to the highs.
 
> Of course you're right here,  and as noted above I run a CS-1200,
> CS-800 and the Ramsa.  BUT.....Don't forget the conversion efficency
> of my nasty and heavey linear supply amps!  Use a factor of %50 when I
> request amp power.  So I count on each amp rack consuming 5000 _peak_ 
> watts.
> 
>>Although, if you want to talk about real fear, I do shows for an audio
>>company that's all Carver 1.5's. The last show I did was 3 1.5s on
>>one fifteen amp circuit. *Shiver*

> I would expect that the amps are loafing along and or the speakers are
> incredibly efficient or you are doing soft shows or, or....

Exactly the point I was trying to make in the first place! My idea of an 
optimum system is when the amps kack out before the ac does. (But hopefully
never!)

>>>What's wrong with a three space amp? Are you limited in rack space?
 
>>No, but I am limited in vehicle space. The smaller and lighter the gear
>>is, the less you have to spend to move it around. If the racks are small 
>>enough to fit in a station wagon, then you don't have to rent a cargo van.
>>The same applies to any show, ie. there's a big difference between renting 
>>a cube van for a week, and renting a five ton for a week.
 
> Point noted.  But for the record I suggest you don't damn the amps for their 
> weight and or size without applying you own personal situation to the
> discussion!

Personal Situation: I own half a dozen of various turnarounds, 50 feet of 
multipair, and some insert cables. I do not own any consoles, speakers,
amps, mics, processing, etc. However, I work for a Band that has their
own gear that *just* fits in a GMC Vandura. ANY extra equipment equals a
cube van. I also work for a duo (accoustic guitars and voice) that
tries to fit everything in whatever vehicle they can borrow from
a friend or relative. I also work for two audio companies, Aurora,
who owns that Vandura and tries damn hard to keep everything small enough
to fit in it, and ABI, who rents five-tons all the time, because stuff
just won't fit in a cube for (Insert Band/Festival/Venue). Also house
audio tech at the Dal Student Union, and occasionally at clubs downtown
or with other bands. So all of those situations have happened to me at 
one time or another.
 
> Not a problem,  I do the same.  But still won't rely on the panel
> markings of any amp if I am forced to use the markings,  and I have
> had specific situations to do that.

But the CS 800, by labelling, encourages people to rely upon them.
 
> The discussion led to the Peavey DDT circuit.
 
>>That's not what i'm trying to say. I am trying to say that 1, when the 
>>DDT circuit is bypassed, the amp sounds better, and 2, some limiters 
>>sound better than others. DDT is one of the others.
 
> The DDT circuit on the late model Peavey amps does not bypass when the
> DDT defeat switch is thrown.  The circutry is is always in circuit.
> The act of DDT is only defeated.  The amp can't sound different?

But it no longer does anything? then it would seem to me that not all 
of the circuitry is in the circuit. roughly analagous to a lightbulb
when it's not on, the circuit's still there, but it's not working. 
But, this is splitting hairs.
  
A whole bunch of junk about DDT(tm) deleted.

My judgement came about after listening to _A Decade of Steely Dan_
_Brothers in Arms_, _The Pleasure and the Pain_ (The Box, out of 
Montreal) and various Celtic albums supplied by the promoter. I decided that 
I liked the sound of the system better at all volume levels with the 
DDT disengaged. Maybe I'm crazy, but my ears are all I've got to go by
and both I and the people that employ me trust them.
 
>>>>tech rider, the first item is *NO EQUIPMENT MANUFACTURED BY PEAVEY 
>>>>CORPORATION IS AN ACCEPTABLE SUBSTITUTE FOR ANY ITEM IN THIS RIDER*.
 
>>> I don't know why you have chosen to be so imovable and inflexiable.  I
>>> have supplied sound for many touring acts that have come through our
>>> town and the real pro's size up the system and usually are skillfull
>>> enough to make it work.  
 
>>I think that the key phrase here is "make it work". I have used CS800s
 
> My description wasn't intended as a performance compromise statement.

But if you don't supply what they ask for, then it is a compromise, even
if they wanted gear of a lesser quality (note that I'm not trying or intending
to make a value judgement of your system). A case in point is _The Tragically
Hip_ who are a medium size Canadian band. Their FOH Engineer's preferred PA
is an Adamson Accoustic rig. This is a Canadian company that's starting to
make inroads into the States, so you may not have heard/heard-of them.
The last time they played Dal, they were bought rider extra, and a local
company cot the contract to do their show. The FOH guy refused a kit
of 8 Meyer MSLs and six 650-RS, and took 16 martin 2x15 bins and 12 martin
RS-1200s instead, because hey felt that the Martin kit better suited the
Band. Now, I personally would kill to use MSLs instead of Adamson, but...
Oh, yeah, the venue at Dal is 1200 standing, and 85 feet from the proscenium
to the back wall.

> I have supplied sound to many performers.  Riders are great and
> wonderful but have to be put into perspective.  I have done shows with
> Donovan.  His rided called out six large bins and thousands of watts
> per side for all shows.  Even the club gigs that I supplied sound on.
> The seating was 150, and it was just him and his guitar.

Reminds me of when Long John Baldry played Dal's club (legal limit 270).
His agent sent us his arena rider, with Hi-pac, Lo-pac, 40 ch FOH, 12 mixes 
on stage! We used 4 Bose 302, and 8 802, with 6 QSC 1500s, 4 mixes on stage
3 EV 1202, 2 martin LE200, and a 16ch yamaha pm1200 with 2 stereo strips.

> The show happened,  it was great and I did it with my Peavey amps!
 
> More discussion on Quality of OSC, Peavey, etc.
 
>>It all depends on what you're after. The last gig I did with peavey product
>>was the Nova Scotia Celtic Festival. I got shafted and had to do the 
>>smallest stage. Since I was house tech, I had to create (no info, as usual)
 
> I am sorry you got shafted,  or that you feel you got shafted.  I will
> regret doing a job and not bid on it again if I would rather not do
> it.  But I try very hard to keep my attidude in line and do what I 
am asked.....

Make no mistake, I had a good time, but I had to give the choice bits away
because I had to staff three stages, and thus had to reserve the least
appetizing for myself, hence being shafted.
  
>>its Frank's monitor rack." Lo and behold, 2 CS1200s and a CS800.
>>Using a Bose 802/302 rig, (which, oddly enough works quite well for 
>>folk/celtic/accoustic, although useless for anything else) really pointed 
>>out to me:
>>1: the CS1200 sounds much better than the 800
>>2: They both sound better with DDT off
>>3: The QSC sounds better than both.
>>4: I hate Bose almost as much as Peavey
 
> Oh my! Peaveyphobia and Bosephobia all in one gig!  I see now why you
> are tweeked! I hope you recover from the infection soon,  I'm
> surprised that the hospital let's you log onto the NET.......  :-)
 
> Did you have the QSC and Peavey in a side by side direct comparison?

No, but I use the same combo with QSC at least three times a week and 
have done so for 3 and one half years so far. For two of those years
I mixed Exclusively on 802/302 combos.

Oh, and according to Bose reps, NO ONE ELSE in the world uses 802s/302s
for an alternative/rock P.A . No wonder I'm crazy, my workplace has made
me this way.  
>>> Have a nice day!
>>Ditto 8) 

> My intent is not to flame, though it may read that way in print! :-)
 
But look at it this way. We're creating a great thread for this group to 
read, as it's been pretty dry lately.
						Mur
						Cullen@ac.dal.ca
						Cullen@ug.cs.dal.ca