From: bd@fluent@dartmouth.EDU (Brice Dowaliby)
Newsgroups: rec.motorcycles
Subject: Re: Lane Splitting (was Re: Cager penile s
Date: 26 Aug 92 12:44:34 GMT
Reply-To: bd%fluent@dartmouth.EDU
Distribution: usa
Organization: Fluent Inc., Lebanon NH


In article <17dhhqINN5r@sixgun.East.Sun.COM> egreen@east.sun.com (Ed Green - Pixel Cruncher) writes:


>In article 92Aug25083719@fluent.UUCP, bd@fluent@dartmouth.EDU (Brice Dowaliby) writes:
>>
>>>I doubt they were actually going 40 (entirely possible, but I doubt
>>>it).  A bike wishing past a stopped car, or one at 5 mph, always
>>>*looks* fast.  If so, they were being pretty stupid, that's too fast to
>>>react to some of the bonehead things people do in heavy traffic.
>>
>>Uhm, I think that was my point, Ed.  How nice of you to allow that
>>that it's _possible_ that what I describe _did_ happen.  Thank you.  Your
>>charity is overwhelming.
>
>In article 92Aug25091038@fluent.UUCP, bd@fluent@dartmouth.EDU (Brice Dowaliby) writes:
>>
>>(except for Ed Green, who seems to think I was making the episode up).
>
>Yo, Brice!  Chill, huh?

Okay.

>>I disagree.  Assume for a moment that your are stopped at a light, on a road
>>with two lanes going in your direction.  A car pulls up in the lane next
>>to you, and then, before the light changes, a Porsche pulls up to the light,
>>right next to you (i.e. in your lane).
>>
>>Wouldn't you be a little pissed?  I think you would.
>
>Yes, I would.  I am not pissed, however, when a bike pulls up to the
>light between my cage and another cage (if she doesn't hit me, or throw
>cigarette butts in my window).  It is not the same thing. 

You're right, Ed, it isn't the same thing.  You're taking the argument a
little further than I was going with it.  When one is sitting on the 'net 
talking rationally about these things, there _is_ a difference between
my Porsche at the light and your motorcycle at the light.

My point was that that difference might not be obvious to the driver
of the cage you pull up next to.  And while it's true that you
can't be held accountable for some cager's bad attitude, I still think
that it's a point against lane-splitting that it tends to piss off cars,
even if it shouldn't.  It does, and that's what we should deal with.

>>>>Am I the only one who thinks it rather hypocritical that riders on the one 
>>>>hand bitch at cagers for encroaching on their lane space, and one the other 
>>>>hand do it to cagers on a regular basis?
>>>
>>>Lane splitting does not encroach on any cager's lane space.
>>
>>This is just not true.  I'm not putting an "IMHO" on this, because I
>>don't think this is a matter of opinion.  Your statement is just plain
>>false, here.  You do encroach - the only question is whether you have
>>the right to do so.
>
>OK, let's consider the term "encroach."  Nowhere in the VC (CA, anyway)
>is the entire lane defined as the "property" or "space" or "right" of
>the cage occupying it.  A reasonable measure of what constitutes
>"encroachment," IMHO, is what is prudent and safe.  At zero or very low
>speeds, if a cage is driving to one side or the other of the lane (they
>mostly all do), they have forfieted their "right" to the other part of
>the lane, because they don't need it for safe operation of their
>vehicle.

I guess we're just going to disagree on this one.  Again you're looking
at it from a legalistic, rational argument, and I'm trying to see things 
the way they are, not the way they should be.

I was not accusing any _individual_ of being hypocritical.  It is
absurd, of course, to talk about the "motorcycling community" but that
is sort of what I was doing in an "us versus them" kind of way.

Riders are sending drivers mixed messages on this one, IMO.  For years
we've been fighting for the right to a whole lane, and now it's
becoming more and more common for riders to deny that right to drivers.
The fact that there are differences between a cage stealing space from 
a bike and a bike stealing unused lane space from a cage doesn't mean
that drivers are going to perceive that difference.

>>>Were these assholes the *only* bikers splitting lanes?  Did you simply
>>>fail to notice, or remember, the dozens of safe, slow, careful lane
>>>splitters?
>>
>>In this particular case, they were the only ones splitting lanes.  But even
>>if they weren't, what's the point of your question?  These assholes were the
>>ones I was talking about.
>
>Merely that the flagrant examples seem to stick in people's minds,
>that's all.  Your post seemed to discussing lane splitting in general,
>not only the two assholes specifically.  I was pointing out that their
>behavior is not typical, just memorable.

Okay.

>>Your points about safety are good ones.  Safety is not the only
>>issue, however (after all, it's safest to leave the bike in the garage).
>
>Safety *is* the primary issue for me when riding.  If we are comparing
>my safety to some cager's attitudes or hurt feelings, fuck 'em, my
>safety is the *only* issue.  You seem to keep emphasizing some kind of
>ethics issue, is it *fair* (just my reading of your statements, for
>example, you use the term "hypocritical").  Hey, they *choose* to sit
>in traffic in their air conditioned, sterio equiped cages.  Every
>vehicle should take best advantage of the road according to its
>characteristics, and every person is free to choose his mode of
>transportation.

I see your point.  Again, you and I might have a slightly different
perspective on what role "fairness" plays in keeping riders safe.
My feeling is that when riders do things that piss off drivers, even 
if they are safe things, then it reduces the overall safety of riders.

>>I am slightly puzzled by the generally defensive tone of your response.
>>Did my post hit a nerve of some sort?  Why so defensive?
>
>I was not aware of being particularly defensive.  You initiated a
>discussion on lane splitting, asking some very reasonable questions.  I
>responded with my opinions.  I'm sorry you took such offense to my
>suggestion you may have miscalculated the assholes' speed.

Ed, I wasn't _that_ offended.  Thanks for your contributions to the 
discussion.  They have been helpful.

-- 
   Brice Dowaliby, Fluent Inc., 10 Cavendish Court, Lebanon, NH  03766
                         bd%fluent@dartmouth.edu        
             I don't speak for them, they don't speak for me
Newsgroups: rec.motorcycles