From: jcurtis@npal.rn.com
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
Subject: Re: "democratic" Estonia
Date: 12 Sep 92 23:25:32 GMT
Organization: PalNet -- Indianapolis, Indiana

Yury states
>Did you ask those long-time Occupants of your land to learn Finnish,before
they can become citizens. No, they became citizens automatically.
There is a difference between people who live in a state when it is first
created and people who move there while it is under foreign occupation. For
instance- I did not mention this in my previous in this group(which
unfortunately turned into a flame), but my mother's family name was
Tichons(Tee-kons) which is the Latvian version of a Russian name. My mother's
family lived in Latvia when it was originally created so they became citizens
of Latvia. I don't think that they had to take Latvian citizenship or learn
Latvian. The whole problem being discussed revolves around the perception by
the Russians that the Baltic States were willing members of the Soviet Union
and that the independence declarations of 1991 were something fresh and new.
 In reality these declarations were a reassertion of the rights of an occupied
nation. Why should the occupier be given the rights afforded to the occupied?
I'm sure that the Balts would be within their legal rights to expel the
colonists brought in by the occupying power(the USSR). They are being generous
and forgiving by allowing persons brought in after the occupation to remain as
resident aliens.
 The ancestors of the Latvians, Estonians, and Lithuanians lived in the areas
they now populate for thousands of years before there were any Russians
organized enough to call themselves a state. There were successive occupations
by Germans, Poles, Swedes, and Russians. The one unbreakable link through the
centuries was the unique culture of each of the Baltic nationalities. I don't
know how you can claim that Russians are being singled out, for the name of the
Latvian state president is Anatolij Gorbunovs(Russian). It's not all Russians
that the Balts are aiming their citizenship laws at, just the ones who arrived
during the Soviet occupation.
John Curtis-------->jcurtis@npal.rn.com>>>>>>or<<<<<<towers!nstar!npal!jcurtis
nreside naie uvThe 
L,zzresidents>YuryIn article <1992Sep11.110802.12941@nntp.hut.fi>,
f33012l@puukko.hut.fi (Janne Kivel{) writes:
> muh@physics.Berkeley.EDU (Yury M. Mukharsky) writes:
> 
>>Listen Jarmo. When Finland became independend, what did you do with your
>>Swedes? Did you ask those long-time occupants of your land to learn Finnish,
>>before they can become citizens. No, they became citizens automatically.
>>( you even where not satisfied with amount you have and got a hefty 
>>extra at Allans :) ). Their language became second official language.
>>And there are much less Swedes in Finland (at least now) than Russians
>>in Estonia.
> 
> There were disputes between language groups in the early days of
> Finnish independence. Finnish-speakers felt they were discriminated and
> it was understandable, since Swedish was the language of the ruling class
> in Finland when our country was part of Russian empire. 
> 
> Swedish-speakers who live in Finland are not Swedes, at least,
> most of them don't think of it that way. They are as Finnish as I am
> They have to learn Finnish at school as well as I have to learn Swedish.
> 
> I would not offer the Finnish model to the Estonians, since the circumstances
> are hardly parallel. In some ways the language requirement would not seem
> so unfair if the Estonians were required to demonstrate adequate skills
> in Russian and I'm sure most of the ethnic Estonians could do that. Only
> the emigrants returning to their old homeland would suffer.
> 
>>The point is not that those Russians should be easier accepted as citizens,
>>the point is that it's should be automatical. They are there to stay.
>>Only very stupid peoples starts new life with there roommates from quarrel,
>>who is the boss. Fortunately not all Estonians are like that. The leader
>>of National Front party seems to be decent guy.
> 
> Some of them would probably like to stay and some would like to retain
> their Russian citizenship. The situation is open now and we'll have to
> wait what happens to those who have applied for citizenship.
> 
>>As for information, Jarmo, you should learn Russian saying: "Zapretnyj plod 
>>sladok". I would guess that average educated Russian have more information
>>than average educated Finn. At least judging by some representatives :).
> 
> I'm glad you just guessed and did not present your argument as the truth
> and nothing but the truth. :-)
> 
>>Yury
> 
> Janne Kivela" 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet