HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: johno@sdd.hp.com (John Ongtooguk)
Subject: Re: what have we learned (was: Adcom bashers .. )
Originator: tjk@csd4.csd.uwm.edu
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, San Diego Division
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 13:19:27 GMT

In article <PSU.92Aug12111108@ptero.cs.duke.edu>, psu@cs.duke.edu (Peter Su) writes:
| 
| I'm not looking for the Great Truth.  I'm looking for little small
| truths. I'm not asking that we have a true and complete model of every
| physical aspect of an audio system from the mics to the speakers.
| What should be possible, at least on the reproduction (as opposed to
| the recording) end is that there should be some rules, be they hard or
| soft, that can guide the ears through the swamp of possible details.

  'Beauty is in the ears of the beholder' invalidates all other rules,
  regardless of how valid they may be. Even in 'high-end audio' there
  are some entrenched tastes as to what a good system should sound like;
  detail freaks, sound pressure level fiends, bass nuts, imaging nerds, 
  and so on, as it is expensive to put togther a system that will provide
  all aspects of good audio reproduction at a high level of quality.

  In my opinion all good systems should start with a clean, good imaging
  midrange. Money lets you fill out the upper and lower octaves as you
  see fit. A good midrange will get you 75% or more of what you're looking
  for although it may not impress some of your friends. What you want
  here are initial comments like 'it sounds so natural', 'it sounds like 
  they're playing right there', or 'it sounds like a real orchestra', etc.

  If you can't listen to everything in the world you'll have to spend 
  more time reading reviews and such. The key is to look for products
  that seem to receive good comments everywhere, and to avoid the product  
  of the month syndrome; if the product is good it'll eventually receive 
  good comments everywhere. 

  Component matching is part common sense and part hobby; if the hobby
  aspect bothers you prehaps a different pastime is in order. 

  One needs good music to listen to, at least for testing. I like the
  lists that show up in TAS as they seem to be reliable than others
  for sounding natural.

  If you've seen 'natural' mentioned above it's because the 2nd, 3rd,  
  and 4th rules of audio are 'natural sounding', 'natural sounding' and
  'natural sounding'. Initial comments like 'gee that's loud', 'really
  nice bass', 'good detail' and such possibly indicate some problems.

  John Ongtooguk (johno@sdd.hp.com)                


Newsgroups: rec.audio.high-end
From: MPA15C!ARTHUR@TRENGA.tredydev.unisys.com
Newsgroups: rec.audio.high-end
Subject: Re: Balanced Lines
Date: 16 Aug 92 15:39:28 GMT
Article-I.D.: MPA15C.AJQX2936B7F9EF
Organization: University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
Originator: tjk@csd4.csd.uwm.edu
Comments: Automatic Return Receipt Requested

Before even receiving the Digest with my query, I've already received numerous
private messages which nailed the problem.  Pins 1 and 3 of the XLR connector
were tied together to ground.  I clipped pin 3's wire and Voila!  Everything
sounds just fine in the few seconds of listening I could endure (the house is
shut up all day baking and it was 103 degrees outside).  Thanks, everyone!

  Arthur L. Shapiro        ARTHUR%MPA15C@TRENGA.TREDYDEV.UNISYS.COM
  Software Engineering
  Unisys Corporation       Speaking as a civilian, rather than for
  Mission Viejo, CA        Unisys, unless this box is checked: [ ]
Newsgroups: rec.audio.high-end
From: Skip Osborne <osborne@software.org>
Subject: Re: Apogee Centaur Minor, Snell EIIIJ, Theil 1.2
Originator: tjk@csd4.csd.uwm.edu
Organization: University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 13:20:46 GMT

>My other option now is the Magnapan 1.5s.  These still sound great
>to me, although I have to check out the dynamics more.  Also, if I ever move
>there is no guarentee that they will fit into a new room.  Also in the
>running are the Audio Concepts Saphire IIti/Sub 1 combo.  These may offer
>the best compromise of sound v. $$$ v. placement options.
>
>Note:  I use the system for video so dynamics are important.
 
If you use the system for video, I'd suggest steering clear of the
Maggies and the Apogees - or any other planar speaker. The image is
harmed by the big thing in between the speakers.

I had Quad 63's, and subsequently acquired a projection system TV. When
I got the bright idea to join my pleasures, I didn't notice a problem
UNTIL listening to music only (the picture is a dandy imaging aid to
the part of your brain that interprets these things). After pulling the
TV away to the corner of the room, the improvement in the music was so
great (much better soundstaging, full depth, and bigger low bass) that
I couldn't listen to music with a sleeping TV in the middle any more.
Basically, Quads or other dipolar speakers need the space behind them
to achieve their magical imaging properties. Any large objects
interposed obscure the reflection in unpredictable ways. I now flank
the tube with Linn Index IIs and lose nothing from the video sound,
bass included.

After living with high-quality sound accompanying video, I think that
top-of- the-line speakers for video are unnecessary - not because of
lack of quality in the input signal, but because the picture helps out
your listening brain so much, in terms of perceptual cues, that you're
readily fooled into believing the sound is real. Naked music needs more
help from your internal processing. All you can get, in fact.

Mine may be a worst case; projection systems are Damn big obstructions,
and the Quads will let you know about Any obstruction. Still, you'd
better check the speakers you audition in your situation - with and
without the TV, when listening to music alone - before plunking down
the cash.

	Good hunting,
Skip Osborne
Software Productivity Consortium
Herndon VA 22070


Newsgroups: rec.audio.high-end
From: MATGBB@LURE.LATROBE.EDU.AU (BYRNES,Graham)
Subject: Re: Good sounding VCR
Originator: tjk@csd4.csd.uwm.edu
Organization: La Trobe University
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 13:10:06 GMT
  (5.65+/IDA-1.3.5/LTU-1.0 for uunet!rec-audio-high-end); Thu, 13 Aug 92 16: 53:19 +1000

 As an example 2
> months ago I bought a Sony CDP R1 transport (with a one week home trial
> period). This piece weights about 40 pounds, has a solid copper
> chassis, special power supply,... and retails at $4000. I'm not
> Rotschild but when my dealer offered me to take it for $750, I thought
> I couldn't go wrong.I was WRONG.  Although the bass was tighter and
......
> So sorry but if the top of the line Sony dedicated transport sounds
> only reasonnably ok I can't believe that their video stuff can sound
> great... or may be it's luck.  Does any Japanese stero company listen
> to what they design or do they use only scopes and voltmeters???
>     
Salut Patrick,
I believe the 2 guys at the top of Sony are very serious about classical
music. Ohga (sp) has been invited as a conductor to some respected festivals.
So at some level the company has a commitment to sound quality. In fact,
a CDP R1 can't be a serious money earner for them (how many do they sell?),
so that they make them at all means they want to be loved.
Ok, so you didn't like it. But then I might have, or you might have loved it
in a different room, or with different speakers. It might be optimised
for Ohga-san's living room system! (No, I don't know if it makes sense to
say that about a transport, just trying to be open minded, si ca ne te derange
pas).

Audio from a VCR is another level entirely. The main business of a VCR is to
produce good pictures. The sound is secondary. The only hi-fi VCR I've
been inside was a Sanyo: it used some pretty low grade op-amps (um, 2358's ?)
and lots of cmos switching, compromised power supplies etc. In MOST cases,
however, it will still sound better than a cassette deck, cos most cassette
decks are IMHO woeful at a really basic level (freq resp., distortion, wow,
dynamic compression). Now I paid $200 (150 US and falling fast) for the Sanyo
(plus I had to fix it...), which makes it a very cheap, quite good recorder.
It is still a long way short of any decent CD player.

On the other hand, a top line VCR costs >$1500 (guess), and you are paying for 
lots of things you don't want. Why not buy a DAT for the same price? At least
all the engineering went into the sound, and if you have an outboard DAC
you are going to get very good sound indeed.
Just a thought,
Graham B

Newsgroups: rec.audio.high-end
From: Jie W Tan <jwt3@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu>
Subject: CANTON, NAD, JBL
Originator: tjk@csd4.csd.uwm.edu
Organization: University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 13:17:49 GMT


I used to hear good things about NAD.  Thus I intend to get its new NAD
2400THX amp.  But recently I have frequently heard negative comments
about its quality, i.e. easy malfunctioning, lots of send-backs.  Can
someone with knowledge confirm or disconfirm this?

I have auditioned the Canton 301 (two way, 1" tweeter, 8" woofer) of
its new series, Fonum.  They sounded kind of harsh, almost completely
lacks low spectrum, and requires at least a 100 watt power amp.  Its
low sensitivity (not given) may be the reason.  Does anyone have a
comment about this speaker?

Lastly, I have heard that a JBL speaker has won a really high rating
and is claimed to have extremely high sound-value.  Your opinion is
welcome!

-- jwt3

Newsgroups: rec.audio.high-end
From: <ADB103@psuvm.psu.edu>
   with BSMTP id 7883; Wed, 12 Aug 92 17: 21:32 EDT
Subject: Re: Apogee Stage subwoofers
Originator: tjk@csd4.csd.uwm.edu
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 13:09:09 GMT

     Muse has develpoed a personality card to mate their Model 18
     subwoofer with the Apogee Stage, producing a virtually seamless
     integration between panel and woofer.  I have heard this setup and
     the biggest improvements besides the obvious solidity and
     foundation to the music are a magnitude more transparency in the
     upper-midrange and overall  more cohesive soundstaging qualities.
     Apparently, by not having to drive your main panels below 80hz
     (+/-5hz), both your amplifier(s) and your speakers are able to
     function much more effortlessly.  
     Call Scott for more info 1-800-669-7574.

Scott E Freeman

Newsgroups: rec.audio.high-end
From: chowkwan@alumni.cco.caltech.edu (Raymond Maihin Chowkwanyun)
Subject: Time Out again
Originator: tjk@csd4.csd.uwm.edu
Organization: University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 13:04:06 GMT


Awhile back there was a wailing and a gnashing of the teeth
over the loss of Dave Brubeck's Time Out album to the philistines
at Sony nee CBS.  Well, the barbarians have relented.  For those
of you that don't read TAS, issue 81, page 8 announces that
Sony nee CBS will be peddling $25 CD's of Dave Brubeck's Time Out.

The justification for the $25 is that the CD's will be mastered with
Sony's 20 bit system.  It would be a cheap shot on my part to make
a snide remark such as "And all this time I thought 16 bits was
perfection".  But hey, it *is* an election year here in the US
and time to let all our worst attack instincts hang out.
Actually, it gets better.  To ensure that the sound is audiophonically
correct, Sony will compare the sound on the CD's with the sound of
1A *vinyl* pressings (I assume 1A designates the first pressing -
sort of like virgin olive oil).  So, the old technology still has
something to teach us.  This is Mama Sony folks.  The Mother
of CD who never met a digital device they didn't like the sound of.

Sony has some complicated system for mapping the 20 bit master
to the (still) 16 bit CD.  Oh, and you also get a pretty box -
how nice.

I've left the best till last.  Miles Davis Kind of Blue is
going to be in the series.  IMHO Kind of Blue is one of a handful
of jazz masterpieces that contend for the title of greatest jazz
album ever.  

Now if only they'd take the next logical
step and come out with a 20 bit CD instead of continuing to
mess around with this  silly bit mapping stuff.

-- ray


Newsgroups: rec.audio.high-end
From: jumper@spf.trw.com (Greg Jumper)
Subject: Reviews of new Melior Speakers?
Originator: tjk@csd4.csd.uwm.edu
Organization: TRW Data Systems Center, Redondo Beach, CA
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 13:08:54 GMT

I finally got around to reading an interesting article from the June _Audio_
describing the new Melior "Real-time Ripple Effect" speakers by Museatex.
Basically, the speakers are the latest attempt to emulate a pulsating sphere
transducer; the technology sounds very clean and elegant, so I'd like to know
more.

Have there been any published reviews of these speakers?  (The article
mentioned above was a technical blurb by the chief of the design team.)  Would
anyone like to share listening experiences with these speakers?

Oh yeah, I have no idea how much they cost; anyone else know?
--
                                       Thanks,

                                       Greg Jumper
                                       TRW DSC Signal Processing Facility
                                       jumper@spf.trw.com

Newsgroups: rec.audio.high-end
From: <ADB103@psuvm.psu.edu>
   with BSMTP id 8987; Sat, 15 Aug 92 11: 12:58 EDT
Subject: Re: Apogee Stage subwoofers (Re: MUSE info)
Originator: tjk@csd4.csd.uwm.edu
Organization: Penn State University
 <199208122026.AA27485@pony.ingres.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 13:03:26 GMT

Actually, the Muse sub is a 25 inch cube, weighs over 150 lbs.  It is
self-powered with a 225w amp feeding a pair of 10in slot loaded drivers.  It
retails at $2750 (single-ended) and is available with balanced inputs and
outputs.  Also, if any of you do consider the Apogee sub for your Stages, be
careful with your choice of amplifier.  The Adcom 555 may be a good place to
start, but a Bryston, Muse, or similarly good bass amp will do a better job
in reproducing the subtle harmonic textures of the first two octaves of
bass.

Scott E. Freeman
Wescott Audio
1-800-669-7574

Newsgroups: rec.audio.high-end
From: gossain@valhalla.sps.mot.com (Raj Gossain)
Subject: Re: Eminent Technology Model 8s
Originator: tjk@csd4.csd.uwm.edu
Organization: Motorola, Inc.
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 13:09:02 GMT


In article 15184@novell.com, bbaker@novell.com (Brad Baker) writes:
>In article <19920810.062231.761@almaden.ibm.com> BARRON@RHQVM14.VNET.IBM.COM writes:
>>Recently I spoke to a dealer over the phone trying to find prices on
>>Magnapan 1.5s (Which I have given up on finding a discount).
>>
>>The dealer suggested (since he didn't carry mags) that I audition Eminent
>>Technology Model 8s.  These sell for $1500 as opposed to the $1350 for the
>>Mag 1.5s.
>>
>
>I listened to them when shopping for speakers.  If I remember
>correctly, they were using some huge VTL monoblocks and EAD playback.
>In my oppinion they lack a great deal of detail, and don't image worth
>a damn.  The bass driver does not integrate well with the panel
>drivers, and the panel drivers popped audibly when driven moderately
>loud (possibly due to the panel diaphram hitting the housing).  I
>bought a pair of Demo Genesis speakers.  A world of difference.  I
>would recommend auditioning the PSB line.  I've heard good things about
>them.
>
>Brad
>

I must disagree with Brad's opinion, IMHO.  After a rather lengthy auditioning
period of speakers <=$1500, I found the ET LFT-8s to have superb detail,
good soundstaging and imaging, and I have had no problems with drivers
"popping".  The bass integration has also not been a problem.  Everything seems
smooth so far.  I purchased these speakers after listening to the Apogee
Centaur Minors, Thiel 1.2, Spica Angelus, Vandersteen 2ce, and the 3-driver
Genesis speakers among others.  I don't recall the Genesis model, but Brad,
you really must be a detail freak, because the tweeter in these speakers made
my ears bleed :-P.  I can only assume they weren't set up correctly because
it looks like the source equipment was quite good.  I'm not writing this to
justify my purchase of these speakers, only to present a very positive and
musical experience I have had with them.

Best of luck,

--Raj					Events in the Ancient Pentathalon:
					- eat, run, and wrtech
gossain@ssdt-tempe.sps.mot.com		- Caligula head toss
					- 400 meter Emperor stab
					- poke the eye of the Cyclops
					- run till you're dead

Newsgroups: rec.audio.high-end
From: colling@pythagoras.math.washington.edu (David Collingwood)
Subject: Amps for B&W 801s
Originator: tjk@csd4.csd.uwm.edu
Organization: University of Washington, Mathematics, Seattle
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 13:03:11 GMT
  (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for <rec-audio-high-end@ames.arc.nasa.gov>); Tue, 18 Aug 1992 13: 32:17 -0700

 I just purchased a pair of B&W 801 series 3 loudspeakers and plan to
upgrade my amp in short order. I have listened to the Bryston 4B ($2K)
and the Levinson 27.5 ($5K). I'm interested in comments on compatible
amps. Krell, Levinson, Bryston, Rowland and AR are the locally available
high-end names in seattle. I found the detail and clarity of the Levinson
breathtaking, especially so when A/B to the Bryston; of course, it ought
to be! Also, can someone tell me why the heck Levinson gear is so 
pricey?
 

Newsgroups: rec.audio.high-end
From: jas@proteon.com (John A. Shriver)
Subject: hospital grade plugs
Originator: tjk@csd4.csd.uwm.edu
Cc: checksix@flyboy.EBay.Sun.COM, dfk0@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu
Organization: University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 13:08:16 GMT

I suspect that hospital grade plugs also tend to have an isolated
ground (indicated by a green dot).  This will elimate a nasty ground
loop, as normal outlets are grounded by the green wire and via the
outlet box.  (Unless the box is plastic, or the grounded outlet very
early with no green screw.)   Considering thet ground and neutral are
already bonded together at the fusebox, there's already pleny of noise
on the ground.  Adding a local ground loop is even worse.

Of course, the real reason for isolated ground is for equipment like
computers that have line filters that send some current, and lots of
noise, down the ground.  The short order grill at college had to have
an isolated ground outlet put in when they got an electronic cash
register.  (Of course, that building had spectacular amounts of
electrical noise, due to the mid-1920's huge DC motors on the fan
system in the basement.)


Newsgroups: rec.audio.high-end
From: frank@ingres.com (Frank Geick - INGRES/ADVISOR x3558)
Subject: Re: Apogee Stage subwoofers
Originator: tjk@csd4.csd.uwm.edu
Reply-To: frank@Ingres.COM
Organization: Ask Computer Systems Inc., Ingres Division, Alameda CA 94501
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 13:09:59 GMT
	by zool.ingres.com (4.1/SMI-4.1/INGRES/zool/03.28.92)

In article <0095EEE9.4D909780.20363@camins.Camosun.BC.CA> dbarker@camins.Camosun.BC.CA (Deryk Barker) writes:
>Some time ago somebody mentioned a forthcoming dedicated subwoofer for
>the Apogee Stages. Does anyone have more info, like availability or
>(gulp) price?

This months issue of Stereophile Magazine (Chicago CES reports) says
$2,500 for woofers and active X-Over.  You will have to add an amp 
and more cables. My local dealer (SF Bay) says they will have a demo
model in 2-3 weeks with shipping in mid september.

I have heard the the Apogee DAX on the bigger systems (eg. Divas w/$20,000 
worth of Krells) and was very impressed with the designer's ability to get a 
coherent X-over. I wonder if this X-over will have any of the adjustability 
of the DAX unit (which was about $2k by itself). I hope it supports balanced
interconnects  as well.

If you haven't spent $495 to add the Apogee stands to the Stages, these
subwoofers are designed to replace them.

The MUSE subwoofer is the same price and has a 250W amp built it. The
new model has balanced interconnects, and Muse builds a specific 
"personality card" for the Stages. The sub is HUGE, however, about 3'x3'x3'.




Newsgroups: rec.audio.high-end
From: eacj@theory.TC.Cornell.EDU (Julian Vrieslander)
Subject: Re: Eminent Technology Model 8s
Originator: tjk@csd4.csd.uwm.edu
Organization: Cornell Theory Center
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 13:09:44 GMT

In article <2272@tymix.Tymnet.COM> romeo@niagara.Tymnet.COM (Michael Stimac) writes:
>You won't find a discount - Magnepan only sells to dealers
>who agree not to discount their product.

Is this legal?

-- 
Julian Vrieslander 
Neurobiology & Behavior, Mudd Hall, Cornell University, Ithaca NY 14853    
INTERNET: eacj@theory.tc.cornell.edu     BITNET: eacj@crnlthry
UUCP: ..cornell!batcomputer!eacj

Newsgroups: rec.audio.high-end
From: keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider)
Subject: which headphones are best?
Originator: tjk@csd4.csd.uwm.edu
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1992 13:53:43 GMT
	sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun via SMTP
	Fri, 21 Aug 92 13: 23:37 -0700 for info-high-audio@csd4.csd.uwm.edu

I am going to soon buy a pair of headphones (willing to spend up to
$250).  Which ones are the best?  Some people have recommended
some Beyers, while others claim that Grados are the best.  Recently,
I heard a pair of AKG's that didn't sound too bad (I haven't heard
the Beyers or Grados, though).

So, which are the best headphones?  Could someone post a review?
Or, you could mail me...

keith


Newsgroups: rec.audio.high-end
From: bbaker@novell.com (Brad Baker)
Subject: Re: Eminent Technology Model 8s
Originator: tjk@csd4.csd.uwm.edu
Organization: Novell Inc., San Jose, Califonia
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 13:08:09 GMT
  (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for rec-audio-high-end@uunet.uu.net); Thu, 20 Aug 1992 11: 04:01 -0700

In article <1992Aug18.205654.4872@tc.cornell.edu> eacj@theory.TC.Cornell.EDU (Julian Vrieslander) writes:
>
>Are you saying that the CD player was directly connected to the power amp?
>That was not clear to me.   
>
No.  The CD player was connected to a "passive preamp" which in my case is
just a stepped attenuator called a First Sound Reference I.

>Let's say that there *is* an mismatch between preamp and amp.  Perhaps the 
>preamp has a relatively low value coupling capacitor on the output, and the
>power amp has a relatively low value of input impedence.  In this specific
>scenario, the net effect is likely to be heard as weak bass - the extreme
>low frequencies are not getting through to the power amp.  That means that
>they will not be getting through to the speakers, no matter what speakers
>you use.  If you happen to be listening to Acme speakers, it is a bad
>generalization to conclude that Acme speakers do not match well with 
>passive preamps.  First of all, the missing bass would likely be noticable
>on other speakers.  And secondly, substitution of a different passive
>preamp (without the impedence mismatch problem) might produce terrific sound.

Look, generalizing that a speaker of relatively low efficiency like the 
ET's (about 88db if I remember correctly) will not work well in a system 
using a passive preamp, is valid.  Obviously, a more efficient speaker
would work better, and have a better chance of being driven adequately
by the CD player (yes, the CD player is driving it, since there is no buffering
being done in the preamp.  I don't consider it "passive" if it is powered, just
pots, caps, and resistors.) 


Brad

Newsgroups: rec.audio.high-end