HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: dfs@doe.carleton.ca (David F. Skoll)
Subject: Re: The Cost of Living Jewishly (was Re: O-C-R debate)
Organization: Dept. of Electronics, Carleton University
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 20:09:21 GMT

In <1992Jul24.193931.1108@umbc3.umbc.edu> shimoff@umbc4.umbc.edu
(Eliot Shimoff) writes:

>Still, serious Jews will take serious steps -- financial privation
>and swallowing one's pride, among other things -- to be serious
>about their Judaism.

But this is a bit off the original topic.  Sure, a person who is
serious about being Jewish will take serious steps - whether or not
there are Jewish day schools.  The original question was whether or
not Jewish day schools help decrease assimilation.  And since serious
Jews wouldn't assimilate anyway, we must look at what we're doing to
woo the "not-so-serious" Jews.

For that group of people, I doubt that day schools make any
difference.  And for that group of people, I'm sure that the financial
considerations make a lot of difference.  We shouldn't simply throw up
our arms and say that if they're not willing to make all of the
sacrifices, then they can't be helped.  That would be abandoning most
of the Jews in North America.

--
                     |         | "Step up and shake the hand
David F. Skoll       | ||||||| |  Of someone you can't stand,
|_ _ _  __   __ _ __ |  \\V//  |  You can tolerate him if you try..."
 / |  | |_|   | |  | |  __|__  |  -- Tom Lehrer, "National Brotherhood Week"
_____|________________________________________________________________________
From: aaron@kesher.UUCP (Aaron Schmiedel)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Hebrew Fonts
Keywords: PostScript Fonts
Date: 29 Jul 92 04:19:19 GMT
Organization: KESHERnet International - Dallas, TX



Hi y'all.  I am looking for a few good testers.  I am in the process
of developing some Hebrew fonts (7 so far).  I need two people for
the following:

NEXT - PostScript type 1 and/or 3
MAC  - PostScript Type 1 and 3, System 7 TrueType

Contact me at the address below.


I am also giving away a free font to anyone who asks.  $6 for shipping
and handling (no email delivery available).  It is a font named CHAYA
and is a hebrew block character font.  Can send in whichever format
your prefer (Mac, Next, PC, TrueType, PostScript 1, PostScript 3).

Mailing address:

AFS Ltd.
7815 La Cabeza Drive
Dallas, Texas 75248
(214) 239-1941

We'll send you the font and a printout of the other fonts we have done
to date.

(The PC PostScript version comes with the .AFM, .PFM, .PFB and .INF files)


-- 
| Aaron D. Schmiedel            |  All my opinions represent what is right  |
| KESHERnet International       |  and true.  Just ask me....               |
| The Jewish Computer Network   |       <aaron@kesher.lonestar.org>         |
| Voice: (214) 239-1941         | ...uunet!convex!egsner!sdf!kesher!aaron   |
From: mgross@halibut.nosc.mil (Michelle K. Gross)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: abortion in Jewish religion
Date: 21 Jul 92 17:55:02 GMT
Organization: Naval Ocean Systems Center, San Diego

In article <1992Jul17.165659.9442@njitgw.njit.edu> dic5340@hertz.njit.edu (David Charlap) writes:
>In article <9207161613.AA11135@ptms_dev.sbi.com> <gertler@ptms_dev.sbi.com (User - Don Gertler)> writes:
>>hayim@locus.com (Hayim Hendeles)
>>	This statement has nothing to do with the original statement. While
>>	Jewish Law does permit abortion if the Mother's life is at stake,
>>	it also permits murder to save someone's life (e.g. A is running
>>	                ^^^^^^
>You may kill an assailant to save the victim.  You may not simply kill

I think that the Jewish law is that if I cannot dissuade the assailiant
from pursuing his victim, then I am OBLIGATED to prevent him from slaughtering
the intended victim.

--michelle
mgross@nosc.mil
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: hap@scubed.com (Hap Freiberg)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: O-C-R debate
Date: 28 Jul 92 19:10:18 GMT
Organization: S-CUBED, A Division of Maxwell Labs; San Diego CA

In article <9207271043.AA00397@ptms_dev.sbi.com> <gertler@ptms_dev.sbi.com (User - Don Gertler)> writes:
>hap@scubed.scubed.com (Hap Freiberg) writes:
> 	My $0.02. Far be it from me to interpret Nora's thoughts but what I
>
>Then may we assume that the following are in fact your thoughts?
>
Yes, you may so assume...All mine.

>	think she may mean is this: "Fundies" of any ilk are anathema. They
>	tend to have tunnel vision, be self-righteous,
>	^^^^^^^
>What do you mean by "tend to"?  Do they or don't they have tunnel vision,
>and are they or aren't they self-righteous?  I mean, as long as we're
>lumping all those fundies into one monolith, why beat around the bush
>with a wimpy "tend to"?  After all, we enlightened individuals know better.
>We know all the fundies ilk are anathema.
>
Actually, I was trying to be polite and not deal in absoultes... But.
Yes, by definition: fundamentalism "a movement or attitude stressing
strict and literal adherence to a set of basic principles" is no
different whether it is Judaic, Islamic, or Xian in origin. It is
equally narrow-minded, restrictive, absolutist, and exclusive.

>	and to believe whole-
>	heartedly that their "WAY" is the only way and that all non-followers
>	or -believers are doomed.  Not a whole lot of room left for compro-
>	mise, individuality, or divergent thoughts....
>
>It's funny that you use the term "anathema."  An anathema is one who (that)
>is damned or cursed, or greatly loathed.  I guess they say about you exactly
>what you say about them.
>
Anathema "1. one that is cursed by ecclesiastical authority; 2. a ban
or curse solemnly pronounced by ecclesiastical authority." I doubt that
anyone has "ecclesiaastical authority" over another unless that authority
is freely given. Of course, one could have the misfortune to live in a
theocracy... You wouldn't happen to be proposing such, would you?

>You wouldn't happen to be a closet fundie, now would you?
>
Not at all. The major difference twixt fundies and me is that I couldn't
care less what they may profess to be The Truth and The Way unless they
attempt to force me to believe as they do. Then I care a great deal and
tend to take measures to protect myself.

>	What is the "moral"
>	difference between the Orthodox of Jerusalem throwing stones at other
>	Jews who travel on the Sabbath and the former head of the Southern
>	Baptists telling his convention that God does not here the prayers of
>	the Jews?
>
>There's a great difference indeed.  The former can have tragic consequences,
>while the latter cannot.  After all, G-d doesn't listen to the sermons of a
>Southern Baptist minister.

I must have missed your reasoning re the above differences. And I
missed the smiley at the end. Or do you really know to whom and not to
whom God listens?


>-Don Gertler

Have any of youall read Eric Hoffer's _The True Believer_ ? 


Hap
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: schwartz@nynexst.com (Steven Schwartz)
Subject: Re: Kosher - Homebrew question...
Originator: schwartz@baba
Reply-To: schwartz@nynexst.com
Organization: Expert Systems Lab., NYNEX Sci. and Tech., White Plains NY
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 92 16:52:46 GMT


In article <27JUL199222421054@utkvx1.utk.edu>, egw@utkvx1.utk.edu (Wolpert, Edward Greenwal) writes:
> 	I have a interesting question... is Homebrew considered kosher?

If all the ingredients are kosher, and the brewing utensils are new
OR have only been used with kosher food OR have been kashered,
then the beer is kosher.  

> Of course, since there is still some yeast in it, it can't be kosher for
> passover :)

Whether or not the yeasties remain as fertile beasties, 
-NO- grain-based beverages--distilled or otherwise--are 
kosher for Pesach.
-- 
Steven H. Schwartz		Expert Systems Laboratory
schwartz@nynexst.com		NYNEX Science and Technology Center
PROFS: SCHWARTZ@UNIX		500 Westchester Avenue
914-644-2960			White Plains NY 10604
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: aap@wam.umd.edu (Alberto Adolfo Pinkas)
Subject: Re: Why I gave up on my People (was Re: Another Holocaust)
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 13:34:25 GMT

In article <2345@israel.nysernet.org> warren@nysernet.org writes:
>
>If this is not the case, let's call it a misunderstanding and all
>agree that we are supposed to help Jews first, everyone else next.

Sorry but no way.
If I have a coat and a Jew and a non-Jew, who happens to be my wife, need it,
I will give it to a non-Jew.
Also, this is all ridiculous, at least for me.
My children will be non-Jews, and  would give them more than to any Jew.
We are not supposed to help Jews first.,

>-- 
>/|/-\/-\       The entire kitchen		Jerusalem
> |__/__/_/     is a very narrow mathom.
> |warren@      But the ***
>/ nysernet.org is not all that worried.

AAP

Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: hillel@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (hillel.e.markowitz)
Subject: Re: O-C-R debate
Organization: AT&T Federal Systems
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 20:04:21 GMT

In article <FAIGIN.92Jul27075601@soldan.aero.org> faigin@aero.org (Daniel P. Faigin) writes:
>On Sun, 26 Jul 1992 22:18:46 GMT, lerner@cs.columbia.edu (Michah Lerner) said:
>
>> name of progress).  But, in  fact, these axioms  are wrong.  1+1=3
>> and this  is  actually the way things are.  That is  right, 1+1=3!
>> It is  three!!  It is  not  two.  THREE!  This is  the fundamental
>
>No, you're wrong. 1 + 1 = 10. Boy, can't anyone add :-)
>
>Daniel
>--

Actually, the reg exp gives 1+1 = 11

Or maybe since 2+2 = 5 then 1+1 = 2.5 (we could compromise)

Hillel Markowitz        H_Markowitz@att.com
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: rivk@quads.uchicago.edu (nora gayle rivkis)
Subject: Re: O-C-R debate
Reply-To: rivk@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1992 20:52:35 GMT

In article <1992Jul24.192801.29415@umbc3.umbc.edu> shimoff@umbc4.umbc.edu (Eliot Shimoff) writes:
>In article <1992Jul24.170856.17664@midway.uchicago.edu> rivk@midway.uchicago.edu writes:

>>but my tools for interpreting Torah are Aristotelian syllogism
>>and Occam's Razor, and halacha uses neither.
>
>Remember, in any event, that Occam's razor whould be used to sharpen
>the wit, not whittle away at the imagination.
>

It was designed to determine what position was most likely to be
accurate out of a given range. Imagination was not; and while I have
all the appreciation in the world for imagination, I don't use it to
determine the truth; it tends to do a very bad job of it, as most people
can imagine things very far-strewn from reality.

>>authority on questions of law, and although I do accept advice to the
>>point where my practice is closer to Modern Orthodox than to Reform a
>>lotof the time, I will not let anyone try to teach my children that the
>>correct way to interpret the text is to let somebody else, whether a
>>modern Rabbi or an ancient sage, do it for you.

>Regardless of one's position in the O-C-R spectrum, isn't this an
>interesting rejection of expertise?
>
>I feel that way about art, poetry, and much of the humanities; I
>don't know much about X, but I know what I like.  I attribute my
>position on these issues to ignorance, and the sense that I don't
>think art, poetry, etc. are all that important to me.
>
>Judaism is, however, important to me.  And, I assume, it is important
>to you.  Do you reject _all_ expertise (Reform and Conservative as
>well as Orthodox)?  I assume that you do not necessarily reject expertise
>in other areas of endeavor (e.g., medicine, math); how (and where) do you
>draw the distinction?   Doesn't it take a great deal of knowledge
>(and hubris) to go off on one's own like that?   (I'm asking, not
>attacking.  Honest.  I'd attack you on the Orthodoxy - Christianity
>parallel, but not on the rest.)

As I said, the only basis for the Orthodoxy-Christianity parallel is that
I think both of them are wrong; sorry for overstating my case on that one.
As for the rest, I take logic as paramount on all subjects, and no, I don't
accept authority in areas like medicine and math. I accept advice, and
ask that it come with explanations, which I then weigh and make my own
decision -- this is where the custom of getting a second opinion on a
medical question comes in. I value the interpretations of my Rabbi and
of the sages very highly; but in the end, it's my decision, and their
interpretations are tools I use in making that decision, not authority
to which I am bound.

>Eliot Shimoff    

	-Nora

Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: warren@nysernet.org (Warren Burstein)
Subject: Re: Anti-Orthodoxy (was Re: O-C-R debate)
Reply-To: warren@nysernet.org
Organization: Mail to News Gateway at Wang Labs
Date: 29 Jul 92 07:20:37 GMT

In <84666@netnews.upenn.edu> weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener) writes:

>But by pure logic C&R conclude that O is wrong.  Official positions
>spell out a basis of Judaism that is not O's, and that if you believed
>this basis, meant that you could not agree with O.  (As opposed to not
>observe O.)

By my logic (no claims made as to its purity), C&R conclude that if
someone wants to accept traiditional beliefs that they don't, or
observe halachot that they don't, one would be allowed to (unless they
had explicitly forbidden such beliefs or practices - aside from the
old-style R temples that insisted on bare heads (or so I've heard - I
see lots of kipot on the heads of people going in and out of a nearby
R shul in Jerusalem) I'm not aware of anything we O do (aside from
claiming that they are wrong) that they think is wrong).
-- 
/|/-\/-\       The entire world		Jerusalem
 |__/__/_/     is a very three-sided gazelle.
 |warren@      But the okra
/ nysernet.org is not all that worried.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: aa324@yfn.ysu.edu (Marlene Miller)
Subject: Chicken
Reply-To: <aa324@yfn.ysu.edu (Marlene Miller)>
Organization: Nysernet
Date: 26 Jul 92 18:28:30 GMT



Someone said:

>Certain types of locusts are kosher.

Rabbi Charles Arian replied:

>I don't know if they taste like chicken or not; nor if they are fleishig
>or parve. You can't live without eating locusts?

*I* definitely can live without eating locusts, but speaking of chicken...
I understand chicken was once parve, but now it's considered fleishig... 
can someone tell why and when this came to be?

Marlene Miller
aa324@yfn.ysu.edu

--
         No nation can long survive without pride in its traditions.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: ask@cbnews.cb.att.com (Arthur S. Kamlet)
Subject: Re: Death Penalty & Jewish Law
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories,  Columbus, Ohio
Distribution: na
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 14:42:57 GMT

In article <1992Jul27.010729.15960@wixer.cactus.org> lazarus@wixer.cactus.org (Michael Lax) writes:
>
>I have been going back and forth with a writer/broadcaster named Dennis
>Prager ("Ultimate Issues") and had a bit of a snaphoo with him on the death
>penalty - which I, based on my Jewish upbringing, _STRONGLY_ oppose.  He
>stated that the "rabbis made things difficutl" but that the Torah
>"unambigulously" supports the death penalty.  What about the Mishnah?  What

In article <1991Aug7.035748.28608@cbnews.cb.att.com> I wrote:
>
>>2) According to Jewish law, a person couldn't be convicted and
>>   sentenced to death unless at least one person spoke out in *favor*
>>   of the accused.  This is because all people have some good in
>>   them, so if the judges don't hear anything good, then they're
>>   not getting the whole story, and can't execute them.
>
>Unless at least one judge -- one member of the court (The Sanhedrin)
>voted to spare the accused.
>
>As a result, perhaps, it was unusual for the death penalty to be
>imposed.  Other rules for conviction also made it difficult.  For
>example, before the accused committed the capital offense, he had to
>be warned that he was about to commit such an offense.  The
>witnesses' testimony that the murderer did the deed was not
>sufficient.  Safeguards required the witnesses testify they
>had warned the accused of the nature of the offense and told him not
>to do so.  And testimony of a single witness could never convict; at
>least two qualified witnesses were required.
>
>  From Rabbi Alexander Feinsilver's book "The Talmud for Today"
>  ISBN 0-312-78479-1 
>   "A Sanhedrin which executes a person once in seven years is
>considered wicked.  R. Eleazar b. Azariah said, 'Even a Sanhedrin
>that does so only once in seventy years.'  Both R. Tarphon and R.
>Akiba declared, 'If we were in the Sanhedrin, a death sentence would
>never be imposed.'  To this R. Gamaliel replied, 'Such scholars
>would only increase bloodshed in Israel.' " Makkoth 7a

"There is nothing new under the sun" - Kohellet
-- 
Art Kamlet  a_s_kamlet@att.com  AT&T Bell Laboratories, Columbus
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (samuel.saal)
Subject: Re: New Jersey Kashrut Laws Declared Unconstitutional
Organization: NetNews Readers Anonymous
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 13:32:32 GMT

Thanks, Stan for posting additional news sources on this issue.

In article <1992Jul23.205544.8631@cbnewsl.cb.att.com>
stank@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (Stan Krieger) writes:

>	County Kosher's operations are supervised by New
>	York Rabbi Harry Cohen.  Cohen said Weisman was
>	following kosher rabbinical requirements and the
>	charges were aimed at keeping him (Cohen) out of
>	New Jersey.

>	"This is about money, money, and more money.  It's
>	about keeping competition out" Cohen said when the
>	case was argued before the high court.  Other
>	businesses Cohen supervised were also charged with
>	violations but those were later dropped ....

A note of personal experience on this place.

I grew up in Elizabeth (next door to Linden) and West Orange, NJ.
County Kosher always had advertisements in the Jewish community
newspapers with sales that seemed _very_ attractive.  Few people in the
Kashruth observant community (and I do _not_ mean only Orthodox) would
buy there because there was simply too much doubt about how a person
could supervise as many butchers over as broad a geographic area as we
knew this guy did.  Meat kashruth is a difficult and serious business.
Those that want to keep kosher know that the issue of "money, money,
and more money" is true: if you go looking for inexpensive
certification, you may well be able to find it, but that supervisor
will have to make up for the income by supervising more places,
probably less carefully.
-- 
Sam Saal      homxb!saal OR saal@homxb.att.com
	Vayiftach HaShem et Peah Ha`Aton
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman)
Subject: ORTHODOXY FOR THE NON-ORTHODOX.
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio, (USA)
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 92 17:46:48 GMT


   Many of the complaints about orthodox Jews I'm afraid are very
accurate.  But to think of orthodoxy in terms of a fundamentalist
who doesn't know the first thing about how to behave politely, is
to make a very big mistake in judgement.
   One of the most wonderful discoveries I have ever made, in the
world of Jewish thought, is the writing of Heschel.  This amazing
man is, IMHO, one of the finest examples of a tzaddik.  When King
was alive, there were many Jews, and many rabbis, that marched in
Selma with King.  But, to the best of my knowledge, the one rabbi
that was orthodox, was Heschel.  This brilliant man is revered in
the gentile world as well.  Many Christian theologians frequently
incorporate Heschel's writings into their teaching.  For those of
you not familiar with his works, a good book to start off with is
God in Search Of Man.
-- 
"The tree of liberty must occasionally be nourished by the blood
of tyrants and of patriots."                    Thomas Jefferson
"Hello? Information?  Would you please give me the home phone of
Pat Buchanan?...Yes.  His address as well, thank you very much."
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: shimoff@umbc4.umbc.edu (Eliot Shimoff)
Subject: Re: O-C-R debate
Organization: University of Maryland Baltimore Campus, Academic Computing Services
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 13:47:25 GMT

In article <1992Jul24.171627.18031@midway.uchicago.edu> rivk@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>In article <1992Jul24.152323.28419@umbc3.umbc.edu> shimoff@umbc4.umbc.edu (Eliot Shimoff) writes:
>>In article <1992Jul24.071839.29730@midway.uchicago.edu> rivk@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>>

Nora writes, regarding Christianity and Orthodox Judaism:
>Not at all. I simply think that both are inaccurate. As I said in another
>article, that Christianity is the greater of two evils is not in question,
>but I don't have to pick between two evils, so I choose something different
>altogether.

Whoops!  Orthodoxy is _evil_?  I accepot your apology in advance for
"the lesser of two evils" as a poorly chosen phrase.

>>So send your kids to a Reform or Conservative day  school.  But if
>>you're serious about Jewish education, don't write "If there were
>>a Reform yeshiva in the vicinity."  People who are serious about
>>Jewish education simply would not live in a community that did not
>>have appropriate Jewish educational facilities.
>
>I beg your pardon; by the time I have kids, I plan to be living in
>Israel, and I know how small the Reform and Conservative movements
>there are, so it would not necessarily surprise me if I could not
>find a Reform or Conservative day school there. If you want to think
>that aliyah is an indication of someone not being serious about Jewish
>education, go ahead, but you'll get laughed at; otherwise, don't jump
>to conclusions.

There is no reason to beg for my pardon; it is freely given.  If you
feel that Israeli mamlachti schools provide the kind of education
you want for your kids, and are willing to make aliyah to give them
that kind of education, then you _are_ being serious.  (Unless, of
course, you are considering mamlachti-dati, or even chinuch atzmai :-))




-- 
Eliot Shimoff                  |    n   n   n
   shimoff@umbc3.umbc.edu      |   X + Y = Z .  Easy to prove no solutions
Ashamnu, bagadnu, gazalnu ...  |   for n greater than 2.  Darn.  Can't fit
Better luck next year!         |   it into this little .sig file.  Oh well.
From: goldberg@techunix.technion.ac.il (Jacques Goldberg)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Ya'amod/Ya'amdu (was Re: Inheritance of Jewish Identity from...)
Date: 23 Jul 92 13:02:17 GMT
Organization: Technion, Israel Institute of Technology

saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (samuel.saal) writes:

>And in the not-so-distant present, I suppose it would still be possible
>for one person to do both jobs, especially when working with a Sephardic
>scroll that comes in those hardwood, ornately decorated cases.
>--
   You mean, one needs a third person, M.D. prefferred, to take care of
   novice fingers !  ;-)          

>Sam Saal      homxb!saal OR saal@homxb.att.com
>	Vayiftach HaShem et Peah Ha`Aton
           Yaaqov
    Seriously now, not so simple, because one has to show the text, then 
cover it with the same cover used between Alyoth, and close the box. Plus
the weight of the box in addition of the Sefer. High risk of community fast,
not very attractive.
From: weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Anti-Orthodoxy (was Re: O-C-R debate)
Date: 28 Jul 92 14:43:12 GMT
Reply-To: weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener)
Organization: The Wistar Institute of Anatomy and Biology
In-reply-to: dfs@doe.carleton.ca (David F. Skoll)

In article <dfs.712330327@ro>, dfs@doe (David F. Skoll) writes:
>>In article <dfs.712284318@data>, dfs@doe (David F. Skoll) writes:
>>>>Let me see.  Conservative and Reform Jews DON'T think they're right?

>>>Sure they do.  But they *don't* say that Orthodox are wrong.

>>That is certainly a lie.

>Please give examples of official positions from Reform or Conservative
>leadership which state that Orthodoxy is wrong.  (I'm not talking about
>individuals; as someone else pointed out, there are intolerant people
>in every group.)

You're *not* talking about individuals?  What is this "Conservative and
Reform Jews" line that you replied to???
-- 
-Matthew P Wiener (weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish