From: flax@frej.teknikum.uu.se (Jonas Flygare)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: : Homosexuality in Islam
Date: 18 Dec 1992 12:06:55 GMT
Organization: Dept. of Control and Systems, Teknikum, Uppsala
Distribution: world
Reply-To: flax@mizar.docs.uu.se
NNTP-Posting-Host: frej.teknikum.uu.se

In article <nabeel.724630758@oracle.sce.carleton.ca>, nabeel@sce.carleton.ca (Rosignolo) writes:
|> In <1992Dec16.094525@frej.teknikum.uu.se> flax@frej.teknikum.uu.se (Jonas Flygare) writes:

|> " Hah! That's a good one. Tell me, how much of a 'generalization' is Big, Black, Lesbian?
|> " Really!?

|>    I will give you an extention to think about it yourself.

That's grand of you. Now, will you answer the question? How much more specific need I be?
Should She have a purple wig and huge silver bracelets, in order _not_ to be a general
Goddess?

|> " By firm belief, I mean that I cannot find within me to _not_ believe in a God. 
|> " I did not say I am a religious person.

|>    Think of publishing your personal dictionary.

Ok, let's just say that I do not hold a firm unbelief then, if that makes it
easier for you to grasp.

|> " Pardon me, but where did I mention going by the Bible when talking about
|> " value-set?  As I said: If you can't find it within you, no book in the world 
|> " is going to help you.

|>    You do not have to mention, but tell me did you live in the desert alone or
|> were you affected by the society?

Ok, let's arm _every_ person in the world with the book of their choice. As _soon_ as I
find a problem I look for the solution in the book. Yes! A Real Flexible Society (tm)

|> " I did not say that we should _not_ have codes to judge by. I did say that I believe
|> " in a separation of the divine and worldy judgement though. But, when it comes to
|> " divine judgement of my actions, that is a matter between me and my God, not between
|> " me and a Book. I might read the book to ponder it's value in guiding me. But when
|> " I start referring to that same book to judge others, _I_ think I'd be guilty of
|> " assuming the role of God. You might feel big enough to wear that role. I don't.

|>    Do you have anything to back you up? You are already (according to you) assuming
|> God is suggesting how the judgements should be divided and managed and whom they
|> concern. Unless you have a book (or a reference) to tell you what to do about
|> things, whatever you might come up with might be wrong.

Yes, I might be. Then I'll have to answer for that. But what other human is capable
of judging me, unless I admit that the wordly sentence is imposed upon me, to make
society work, instead of keeping God happy? I just cannot imagine that any Divine being
can have any interest in all the aspects of human life. If we are supplied a general
set of rules that we should be obeying to be good followers of the faith, yes, but to
use the same set to create laws regarding the running of society is an abomination.
"Lesse, we must check if 15% tax is ungodly.. Yes it is.. Better make that 25% then.."
If the laws of a society is _founded_ upon the rules of a religon, only makes it easier
for the people, assuming all have the same religion. But to claim that the ruleset of
religion and society should be the _same_ doesn't hold water.

|> " But if you kill an innocent, what does that make _you_ guilty of?
|> 
|>    Guilty of his/her life. If it is deliberate then you are killed, otherwise,
|> there are other solutions (but the dead is dead,) everybody makes mistakes
|> however they try to avoid it, but they must do their best.

This means that a killer is guilty of two crimes: disrupting the life of other
people according to the laws of the society he lives in, and a crime according to 
the religion, assuming he is a believer in such a religion. Now, if you intend to
run a society with a _large_ number of people, which is easier: to follow the rules of 
society _and_ religion, or to just use the religious ruleset? What if you _happen_ to 
find two people who interpret the Holy Book in different ways. (Yes! This is an
_uncommon_ situation....  (sprinkle liberally with irony))

|> " |>    If you keep this closed minded bigoted attitude you won't be able to 
|> " |> appreciate what religions are all about, probably Judaism thinks that the ugly
|> " |> and some kinds of people are unclean. We do not. God does not give you credit
|> " |> for what He gave you, just for what you do (about it.)
|> 
|> " Please rephrase that last paragraph, it makes almost no sense.
|> 
|>    The ugly and black, etc. are no less than anyone else. Everyone is judged by
|> their own deeds, not their looks , money or prestige.

Yes, but then they are judged by their adherence to human law, and their life.
The judge of how they have led their life is God, and all we humans can do is
trying to follow our laws, in hope of living better lives that way.

|> " I'd appreciate if you told me what Judaism have to do with what I said?
|> 
|>    They consider some kinds of people unclean, etc.

Oh. Is there a religion that does not consider _any_ people to be unclean? 
Islam perhaps? Then how come that poor somali woman got so beat up?

|> " Jihad is Holy War. Right? Isn't it possible to proclaim Jihad on something that
|> " mispleases your God? Self defense? Give me a break..

|>    Do you want to teach me my religion or what? Is not offense one way of
|> defense? In addition, the real definition of Jihad is struggling for the
|> good cause, e.g. freeing oppressed people, ridding criminals, self defense,
|> etc.

Ah! Just because I do not believe in your religion I cannot hold opinions 
about it? And claiming that offense is the same as defense is just newspeak.
Let's assume that a people exists that is an abomination to Islam.
They all live on a island far, far away. Chances are that a moslem will never
even see a person of that people? They are peaceful, and will not try to conquer
other islands. Should you then wage a Jihad against them?


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