From: makowsky@enuxha.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky)
Subject: Re: Eggert vs. Livni
Reply-To: makowsky@enuxha.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky)
Organization: Arizona State University, Tempe AZ
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 01:36:07 GMT

In article <1992Sep2.154729.9097@dscomsf.desy.de> Hallam@zeus02.desy.de writes:

# In article <1992Sep1.224926.12235@ennews.eas.asu.edu>,
# makowsky@enuxha.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky) writes:
 
# |>In article <1992Sep1.183356.1384@dscomsf.desy.de> Hallam@zeus02.desy.de
# |>writes:
 
# |>The point still
# |>stands.  Jake is correct about whether or not it happens.  The only
# |>thing that can be disputed is how often.  Your ad hominem attacks do
# |>not change this (but they shed a bad light on you).
 
# Jake is cerainly not correct if he is claiming that "it happens". Get your
# tenses right.
 
	It has happened, it continues to happen, and in all propbability
it will happen in the future.  How are the tenses relevant?

# Jakes claim arises from a beleif that all Arabs are liars and theives. I was not
# seeking to attack the claim through the man but the opposite. I was pointing out
# how only someone with racist attitudes would make such a claim.

	I agree that only someone with a racist attitude would make that
claim.  But only a liar or an idiot would claim that was Jake's
belief.

# |># Thats because you are living in a backwards hick country where the rights
# |>of
# |># property are not respected. What you are describing there is abuse of the
# |>law.

# |>	I live in the United States, where this is in fact the law.
# |>Remember, we revolted against you guys because you abused the law with
# |>us.
 
# Well if you want to get personal then I'll point out that you still revolt me.
 
	Actually, I was trying to inject a little humor (I forgot the
smiley).  However, if I do revolt you, then I must be doing something
right.

# Before we get into a discussion over the circumstances under which the US got
# kicked out of the British Empire for making tea with salt water let me point out
# that fine words in the constitution do not guarantee rights. Removal of property
# without due process of law is tantamount to a bill of attainder.


	I agree, and I believe the situation I described needs to be
changed.  However, I believe (I no longer have a copy of what I was
responding to) that a point was made on how things in the US are
handled as opposed to Israel.  I was merely pointing out a glaring
example to refute that.

# |># In the UK we set rather a higher score on democratic rights.

# |>	Oh really.  I could show you an article written by David Broder
# |>(One of the most respected columnists, by people of all political
# |>views) about how the British condemnation of Israeli handling of the
# |>intifada in light of British behavior in Northern Ireland.
 
# Since you have seen me post at inordinate length on the British behaviour on
# Northern Ireland and are quite aware of my position I can only conclude that it
# is you who are stooping to ad-hominem attacks. 

	So what is this about the UK having a higher score on democratic
rights?

# I have on many occasions described how the macho heavy handed tactics of Heath
# and the Ulster Unionists created the present problems. The Israeli activities in
# the occupied territories are self defeating. No matter how sever the repression
# they will not bring any measure of peace.

	They are not meant to bring peace.  That can only happen with
divine intervention.  They are meant to ensure legitimate property
(and other) rights and to provide protection.

# |># |> In at least one case, an individual convinced a jury he
# |># |>was innocent, and then a judge overturned the jury verdict!  And this
# |># |>all can take place even if charges are never brought against the
# |># |>individual!!!!
 
# |># This sounds clearly unconstitutional, not that constitutional rights ever
# |>meant
# |># much.
 
# |>	The United States Supreme Court has said that this is very
# |>constitutional.
 
# A bunch of political appointees. Surely the shenanigains over Roe vs Wade must
# make you think that there must be something a bit wrong? Are you suddenly going
# to change your mind over the constitutional right to abortion if Bush succeeds
# in rigging the court to overturn it?

	The Supreme court is made up of people.  Human beings.  They make
mistakes.  However, I know of no other better, workable system for the
United States.  Do you?
 
# |># |># What Jake seeks to justify is confiscation of property without
# |># |>compensation.

# |># |>	Nope.  He seeks a return of property.  The Arabs should feel lucky
# |># |>they are not being asked o pay for their illegal occupation of the
# |># |>property.
 
# |># Jake is asking for no such thing. We are discussing the cases where no claim
# |>is
# |># being made by any individual. 

# |>	That is what Jake is asking for, whether or no a claim has been
# |>made.  Remember, the rightful Jewish owners may have died with no
# |>decendents.
 
# In which case there is no claim.

	The State has the obligation, as the fiduciary, to act as if there
is a claim.

# What you are doing is to blow a possibility
# that a house may be stolen into a certainty and then justfy it's expropriation
# by a third party on those grounds. It's thinking like this that causes misery.

	I (nor Israel) is doing this.

# |># Given that the policy we are discussing is that of Ariel
# |># Sharon you will look hard to find support for it even in Israel.

# |>	Sharon has much support (even if it is not a majority) in Israel.
# |>However, what policy are you talking about.
 
# If Sharon has so much support please explain why he has just lost the election.
 
	Because his party (or its partners) did not get a majority.  It
sounds as though you need a lesson on Israeli politics.

# |>	I agree with your statement, but he his still very popular among
# |>some.
 
# So is David DuKKKe.

	That was not the issue.  His popularity was.

# |># |># |>There is no such hypocritical demand.  The mezuzas on the doorposts
# |># |># |>simply indicate that the Arab claim to have been living in the house
# |># |># |>for generations is false. 
 
# |># |># Jews have lived in the holy land for generations too you know.

# |># |>	Agreed.
 
# |># So the presence of Mezuza holes tells us nothing about whether a house was
# |># illegaly misappropriated from Jews, merely that Jews once lived there. 

# |>	From a definite point of view, yes.  But once the facts of how
# |>they came to leave those homes becomes clear, it is obvious that it
# |>was misappropriated.  And it does tell us that the Arab claim of a
# |>centuries old continuous presence is a lie (at least in those homes).
 
# Not if the house was built by a Jew centuries ago and then sold to an Arab.

	I adressed this point in a response to Livni.  Proof of this would
make the mezuza hole claim irelevent.  However, no proof has been
offered.  Wonder why?

# |># If you want peace with you neighbours it is best to stop producing
# |># rationalisation for stealing his property.

# |>	There is no rationalization going on here.  And as I have stated
# |>before, peace is impossible without Divine intervention.  Both sides
# |>share blame for that, but it is a fact that must be dealt with.
 
# Oh arguing with a religious type eh? You should realise that religious
# fundamentalist arguments have least currency on the net.

	I could care less about "currency on the net".  And I am not a
funamentalist.  I am a realist.  I think with my brain, and not with
my heart (although I hope with it).

# |># Thankfully with the defeat of Likud
# |># it is to be expected that these practices have either been stopped or are
# |>being
# |># stopped.

# |>	The defeat of Likud has no effect.  Eventually, to protect Arabs
# |>and Jews from Killing each other, Kach ideas will have to be enacted.
# |>A Labor defeat would not have changed that.
 
# Oh yes we forgot, Makowsky is a Khach supporter. The Israeli version of the Klu
# Klux Klan and a tenth as popular.

	You obviously know nothing about Kach.  At any rate, if you want
to stop both sides from killing each other, you too will become a Kach
supporter.

# |># I am still waiting for Jake to list the dates of his military service in
# |>Israel.

# |>	I have seen you make this request before.  Why do you care?

# |># Perhaps Makowsky could also oblige.

# |>	Why?

# |># One of the most disgusting aspects of the
# |># whole situation is the fact that those who are most vociferous in their
# |>demands
# |># to continue the occupation of the territories and confiscation of Arab
# |>property
# |># are also the very same people who wheedle out of military service on
# |>"religious"
# |># grounds. 

# |>	You have no idea about what your are talking.  I suggest you find
# |>out what a Hesder Yeshiva is.  At any rate, I live in the US where
# |>there is no draft.
 
# There is no Heseder Yeshiva only a Yeshivat Hahesder, I am instructed by my
# sources to tell you that you are an ignorant git.

	Ignorant heh?  Would you care to move this debate to hebrew?

# Sitting in a room reading the
# Torah does not count as military service, nor is 9 months token service
# comensurate with the 3 years that all other Israelis have to do.

	You still have no idea about what  you are talking.  I suggest you
find out what a Yeshivat Hahesder is, and this time ask someone who
actually knows (i.e. has been there).

# |>At any rate, I live in the US where
# |>there is no draft.

# Thus you live in the wrong continent to be credible as a fanatical Zionist.

	I claim no credibility as any kind of fanatic, Zionist or not.
--

David Makowsky
makowsky@enuxha.eas.asu.edu
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,ca.politics,ba.politics,soc.motss,ba.motss