From: fredj@wang.com (Fred Jewell)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Morals and Dogma response
Summary: Yet another Retort
Keywords: Pike Morals_and_Dogma
Date: 14 Apr 92 20:13:59 GMT
Organization: Wang Labs, Lowell MA, USA


> I don't have the book right here, but it states that it is for the use of
> persons involved in instruction in Scottish Rite and isn't to be released
> to persons not master masons, or somesuch.  It has no inscription that
> describes the lodge of origin, only that it should be returned to the
> mother lodge.
> 
That *MUST* have been an ink stamp or a pasted notice.  I also have Pike's
book I got it from a friend, it DOES NOT HAVE THAT IN IT!  Also in the
United States there is no Mother Lodge, there are, however, two Scottish
rite jurisdictions. The Northern is in Mass, the Southern is in South
Carolina, it is interesting that the degrees are also VERY different
although they are called the same.

> No, I don't.  I was just describing the contents of the book.  It is my
> understanding that the technical secrets are the only real secrets of
> masonry, and I was merely being specific that the book did not have any
> of that specific information, so that people wouldn't think it did.
> 
Actually the only secrets are the recognition signals.

> Separate but equal?  I have never found this to be so in any of the lodges
> I have had communication with.  Also OES is not a women's organization,
> since it admits both men and women.

The Eastern Star was created as an adoptive organization; the person in
charge of the chapter is called the Worthy MATRON.  This by law is a woman.
She runs the organization.  Because the organization is masonic, there has
to be a masonic familial relationship.  The Daughters of the Nile do not
admit men, however these women only admit wives of Shriners.
> 
> > >One suspects that this is a major reason for the various schizmatic
> > >organizations, such as the IMORC, GD, OTO and so on.  You will also
> > >notice that the scions of masonry are almost universally more openly
> > >magickal lodges, while also admitting women.  I think this is an issue
> > >of the limitations of the current structure of "traditional" AF&AM
> > >(and A&FM or whatever) masonry, and also perhaps an issue of the
> > >persons interested in serious magick being winnowed out from the 
> > >main line.  (I almost said more conservative mainline, but decided 
> > >that wasn't necessarily appropriate...)
> > 
> > Where do you get these bogus facts from??  Where is your data?  
> 
> Which facts do you find bogus?
> 
> 	1)  That the GD, OTO, & AMORC are more openly magickal?
> 	2)  That they admit women.
> 	3)  That the organizations listed in (1) are schisms of 
> 		masonry.
> 
I cannot answer for the Golden Dawn nor for the OTO, but i can for AMORC.
I don't see how H.S. Lewis was a disgrunteled mason forming a counter/anti
masonic organization!!!!  To the best of my knowledge he was a mason in
good standing, there is positive mention of the Craft in the monographs
(which by the way do say if found return to the mother lodge or grand
lodge).  It should be noted that in the 1700's there were many men that
were very active members of both the Rosicrucians and Masons, this could be
the common thread.
> The rest of the paragraph is opinion.
> 
> > I also
> >  
> Then you wouldn't define them as masonically derived?  Nor as attracting
> a membership which might be masons if the masons were gender integrated?
> I did not state that they were *founded* for that reason, but I suspect
> that it is a goodly part of their continued existance.  How could one
> possibly corroborate this, unless one went into all the lodges and asked
> them about their feelings about masonic traditions -- something I don't
> have the time, nor the facilities, to do.  
> 
From the personal comparison of lodge meetings between masonic blue lodges
and the only lodge of AMORC that i've been (Johannes Kelpius in Alliston
Ma) there is *VERY LITTLE*, in fact there are only 3:  The term of the
person in charge Master of the Lodge, the physical situation North, South
East and West, and thirdly the Shechinah.  The rituals have different
persona in different places.

> I don't "expound [these] theories as gospel."  If you *read* the paragraph
> you would note the phrases: "One suspects..." and "I think..."
> 
No offense taken nor intended to be given.  An affirmation or something
written is more believable, i just want to make sure reality is stated.

> > Our system does not allow a post today, something about lack of inodes, so
> > I give you permission to post this if you care to post it!!!!!!
> > 
> Surely.  I'd be happy to...

 Thank you
> 
> > If you have questions then i'll be glad to answer any except those of
> > recognition!
> 
> All right.  Do you think that the instruction of the men's lodge and the
> women's lodge (as you will) is of an equivalent character?

For give my ignorance, but i'll have to assume that by character you mean
standing, status etc.  I am not a member of the Eastern Star, simply
because my wife does not wish to be a member of that organization yet.  She
will probably never choose to become a member because sh believes that the
masons are sexest, in that masons do not admit women to the blue lodge, and
that secondly she has enough on her plate being active as a GSUSA (Girl
Scouts) leader.  For me there would be no fun in that organization without
my wife.  As i have stated the OES was founded as adoptive masonry to have
an organization to take care of masons wives and widdows.

> Why do you think that the lodges are segregated?  

There are many ethnic groups including African Americans in my Blue lodge,
as well as the other masonic organizations that i belong.  I assume that
you mean why arn't women admitted to the blue lodge.  I can only guess, and
it would be probably be wrong, but i think it stems from the guilds.  I
don't believe there were many female stone cutters/carvers, and at the time
of the cathedral building in Europe mens and womens "duties in life" were
very clear cut.  Obviously today this is *NOT* the case nor should it be.
However, in England or Ireland there was a woman legally admitted to the
Masonic Fraternity.

> Do you believe that the masons are as openly magickal in charter as the 
> other organizations I mentioned (particularly the GD/OTO)?  

Not really, i believe the majority are concerned with the
social/fraternal/charitable aspects of the Craft rather than the Mystical
side of it.  However, there are many who are!  That's why i joined AMORC.

> Do you believe that it promotes the development of masons to be in a 
> segregated environment, and how?  

ABSOLUTELY NOT.  Segregation is a social disease to be irradicated by
education, which by the way this country is sadly lacking!

> Has this belief changed since you became a mason (i.e. what did you think
> about the reasons for segregation when you first became a mason?  

This must be sexual segregation that you are mentioning.  When i was in the
Navy women were not allowed on ship, in a combative situation or
potentially combative one.  Girls were not in the Boy Scouts, nor were they
Scoutmasters.  Boys were not allowed, nor are they now allowed in the Girl
Scouts, or Blue Birds, or Campfire Girls.  A lot since then has changed
IMHO for the better.  So being or joining a "MENS" organization was not
peculiar, therefore  i didn't even think about it!  I actually don't think
that it's either bad or demeaning to exclude women.  It would'nt break my
heart if women joined either.

> Would you have been attracted to becoming a mason if it were 
> *not* segregated?

This sounds like a cop out but i can't speculate.  The major reason was
that my father was the only one in both my mothers and fathers family who
did'nt join the masons, my mothers father (just before he died) told/asked
me to ask to join the Fraternity.  Womens' admission were not a factor at
that point.  If women were ridiculed in it then i would have left it.

> Why did you join the masons rather than another organization in the same
> general tradition?).

My father was a PER of the Elks, i'm not an Elk today maybe later.  I'm not
much into alcohol that is the reason.  The odd fellows IOOF are almost
extinct in this neck of the woods as well as the Knights of Pythius.
What others are there?

Fred Jewell
fredj@wang.com        These foolish opinions are my own and not WANG's