From: muehlhau@en.ecn.purdue.edu (John Muehlhausen)
Subject: Re: The Light
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 92 09:25:41 GMT

Sean,

   What I am going to say will sound strange, but it is true.  There is no
such thing as an ex-Christian.  If you claim to be one, then I hold that you
never were a Christian to start with.  My experience has been that once you
_truly_ give your life to God, He won't let you go.  I know this means
nothing to you, since in your mind God is just a symbol that stands for
something that doesn't really exist, and in mine it is a symbol that stands
for the one, true, living God that shows Himself to me continually and loves
me unconditionally.  Oh well.  All I can ask is that you try and assume the
later for the sake of discussion.

   I am interested to know if any of the following were a part of your
"Christian" life (please to not get mad at the quotes, I am not trying to be
obnoxious...)

   Did you accept that God exists and that Jesus is the way to Him in your 
   heart, mind, and soul?

   Did you make it a point to get time with Him daily (or more often) in
   prayer and Bible study?

   Did you look for Him in your circumstances and surroundings and keep Him
   in mind at all times?  Asking for his guidance throughout the day?

   Did you give your life to Him, regardless of where He might tell you to go
   or what He might tell you to do?

   Did you get plenty of fellowship with other people who are trying to be
   more Christ-like?

   The objective question to ask of this is "why should I think this is any
different than brainwashing oneself with any given philosophy?"  I cannot
give an objective answer.  All I can give is that I do realize this and am
capable of looking at my beliefs objectively, but there is something
more to this particular one.  It is real.  Assuming that you are right, what
have I lost by living this way?  What would you lose by trusting in Jesus for
your salvation?  I cannot think of anything that is worth having in the first
place.  I know you are thinking that you would be believing a lie, and for
that reason it would have no meaning.  Tell me what evidence you have (major
stuff here, not pidly crap) that the Christian God does not exist.  Personal
testimonies count extra. :-)

In article <1992Aug29.155355.7212@ac.dal.ca> hartigan@ac.dal.ca writes:

>Ok, sure. Alas, looks like an old mythology to me...and my former belief in
>it (I see know) occurred because ANY unfalsifiable system looks true if you
>accept it's initial premises. Which I did, attributing feelings which have
>no connection to Yahweh to just such a mythological figure.

For me it looks true as you are saying, but more than that I know its true
and it is true.

>> But that is just darkness.
>
>So says this unfalsifiable dogma, which I used to hold also. I'm sure it seems
>true to you at the moment.

Please try and shake me - I am a sensible person.

>> But this is light!
>
>Yes, I know it feels good. I know it is intellectually satisfying, 
>(if you don't ask TOO many questions - every intellectually active Christian
>ends up a heretic. - Hartigan's law. )
>
>I know it makes life more bearable. I know it provides stimulation, that it
>provides companionship, that it allows one to make sense out of the chaos of
>experience.  But, if you are a human being like me, it is self-deception to
>be as sure about it as you are, comrade. Honest Christians are virtually
>indistinguishable from honest atheists. Their most noticeable quality
                                         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>is humility. 
^^^^^^^^^^^^

Bingo.

>> But that's nothing compared to this!
>
>That is true. But some of us prefer an honest nothing, or an honest ambiguity,
>to a false certainty.

Why are you so sure it is false?  The only thing you can prove is that you
can't prove it.  So we have two ways of thinking that are unprovable but
cohesive.  One gives meaning to life and the other doesn't.  Tips the scales,
don't it... :-)  Can you say that you are as certain that I am wrong as I am
that you are wrong?  I think all that you can _honestly_ say is that you
don't know.  From what is external that is all I can conclude as well.  I
have an unfair advantage though - I can (and do) claim that God has shown
Himself to (and come to live in) my soul.  That evidence cannot be refuted.

>> But this is beautiful!
>
>It is PLEASANT, but some aspects of Christian myth are beautiful, I agree.

But having the Holy Spirit living in you is not myth.  It is now and real
and, like I said, undeniable.  I cannot reject God.  It would be like
rejecting the fact that I exist.  It would be a terrible lie to myself
because it would go against what I _know_, whether I want that knowledge or
not!

>> You really should turn around.
>
>Turning around for me means facing backwards, back to a life that is no longer
>possible for me. Once you've seen what you're doing when you have a "strong
>faith" in ANYTHING, it is impossible to go back. Just as it is impossible
>for you to believe in Santa, once your parents reveal the truth. You may 
>WANT to go back, but it is impossible.

Assuming you were ever there. (Once again I ask that you not be anoyed with
me)

>> This is incredible!  Everyone should see this!
>
>I have, comrade.  Your enthusiasm is admirable, but also a bit alarming.
>Remember the enthusiastic Hitlerjugend? "Sieg HEIL!" Wheee! What fun!

Have you?  Obviously you have not seen what I have.

>> But this is IT!  What you've got is nothing!
>
>What I have is what's left after you abandon an imaginative view of life.
>All you have is life itself. IF you call that nothing, comrade, I wish you
>good luck.

It is nothing.  We, of ourselves, are nothing.  80 years is nothing.  Human
achievement is nothing.  Read Ecclesiastes.

>> I've got to get closer...
>
>Your ideology makes no allowances for disagreement. I know that you think
>I must be nuts. I remember laughing aloud at the first person to tell me
>he was an atheist. How could he live like that? I wondered. How could he 
>possibly believe that? HEY, LOOK AT THIS, I said...
>
>Use your imagination, comrade. Try to see through the eyes of one of your
>fellow featherless bipeds.
>
>>    YOU ARROGANT CLOSED-MINDED @*#*!!
>>    How can he say I've got nothing?  Why, I've looked this direction
>>     for over forty years!
>>    ...forty years!
>>    I'd think after forty years I should at least see _something_!
>>    Maybe I _should_ take a look.
>>    But what if it's not what I hope it is?  What if I'm disappointed?
>>    At least this way I can still have all this...
>>    NOTHING!
>>    Maybe just a peek wouldn't hurt.
>> 
>
>This passage demonstrates almost total ignorance of the position of the
>ex-Christian.  To all Christians: you know FAR less about us than we do 
>about you. We were once as you are now. You have yet to join our
>illustrious :-) ranks - you don't know us at all. 

How is that?  I can honestly call myself an ex-atheist... Of course that
ideology _does_ make allowances for disagreement.  And here I am!

>>    WOW!
>>    WHY DID I WAIT SO LONG!
>> 
>>    HEY!  TAKE A LOOK AT THIS!
>
>Yes, hard-headed Christianity is, strictly speaking, a "branch of the bourgeois
>narcotics trade," as Brecht once said of the popular theatre. I know it's
>lots of fun. After all, I used to play too. 

If it was a game, even in retrospect, then you were not a Christian.

>> John M.
>
>
>Sean Hartigan
>hartigan@ac.dal.ca


John M.
Xref: sparky talk.religion.misc:15514 alt.atheism:16439