From: bcoleman@hayes.com (Bill Coleman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Macintosh advocacy (really!)
Date: 23 Nov 92 18:41:23 EDT
Organization: Hayes Microcomputer Products, Norcross, GA

In article <1992Nov13.235210.10563@cuug.ab.ca>, wilcoxt@cuug.ab.ca (Terrance Wilcox 260-8100) writes:
> In article <6304.2b00e2ea@hayes.com> bcoleman@hayes.com (Bill Coleman) writes:
>>> But with NeXTSTEP 486, NeXT will become superior 
>>
>>That remains to be seen. Perhaps NeXT will be quitely ignored, like it has
>>been to date.
> 
> NeXTSTEP 486 isn't even shipping and they've sold 2500 copies to Chrysler.
> It's not being ignored.

2500 copies ain't squat. They need to sell millions of copies. And there needs
to be hundreds, if not thousands of applications that run under this 
environment.

>>> NeXTSTEP is probably globally more professionnal than the Macintosh.
>>
>>Again, raw, unadulterated conjecture without the slightest shread of proof.
> 
> No, it's opinion. I see yours throughout your post.

Well, that's certainly convincing....

>>> This is more general on NeXTSTEP, since every applications is customizable 
>>> (for each user) in using a default (sort of preferences database) universal  
>>> mechanism.
>>
>>Interesting. "More general" may not necessarily be "better."
> 
> raw, unadulterated conjecture without the slightest shread of proof. :)

He didn't give any details, man! How can I draw any conclusions or debate the
point without details. I haven't seen it. I labelled it "interesting" and 
pointed how that "more general" may not be "better."

>>> An Help Object (hypertext, multimedia (text, sound, graphic, ...)
>>
>>Note that you can put multimedia into baboon help, too. I don't think anyone
>>wants a 500M help file for their application.
>>
>>Realistically, the industry needs to evolve the hardare base to store more
>>information for this kind of help -- or transition to simple, highly 
>>integrated intelligent applications that don't require help to use.
> 
> Let's hear it for user manuals. I actually try to read mine.

Hear! Hear! I just got through editing a couple. 

>>> Unix standard (like uucp). NeXTSTEP includes in standard ISDN support (with  
>>> high level applications).
>>
>>For either machine, you need an external adapter to do ISDN. 
> 
> Yeah but the NeXT adapter from Hayes is about $300 and handles two 64 kbps
> channels. The Mac adapters cost a bit more. The Hayes adapter for the
> Mac is about $900, uses one or both serial ports, and does 38.4 kbps.
> Not as good.

Since I work at Hayes, and I'm intimately familiar with both devices, I have
to grudingly agree.

The NeXT adapter doesn't do the same stuff as the standalone, though. 
In either case, you could always attach the standalone to the NeXT serial
ports.

>>NeXTStep doesn't include anything like the CommToolBox, does it? (That's
>>a trick question....)
>>
> No, the PhoneKit and ISDN Kit are better (more versatile). The PhoneKit
> makes it fairly simple to create phone applications. Is the CommToolBox
> that versatile? 

Yes. Apple added the Telephony manager this year.

>>> You simple select the target printer in the Print Panel (not necessary to 
>>> make a stupid previous selection in a selector Panel).
>>
>>(The previous selection isn't "stupid". It is necessary for your documents
>>to understand the exact size of the printer involved. Since printing action
>>to each device results is slightly different page sizes, selecting the
>>printer for the document beforehand allows applications to exactly represent
>>the size of the page, and the placement of the printed information on the
>>screen.)
> 
> Well, if I choose Page Setup for paper size before I print, why should the
> application need to know what printer I want to use. The chooser is
> merely placed on the Print panel.

Because the paper size (the printable area) changes for each different type
of printer. While the LaserWriter and the ImageWriter (for example) may
both allow 8 1/2" by 11" paper, they print a different sized area. 
Applications need to imbed this information in their documents in order to
make sure that nothing is outside the print area.

>>> SCSI-2 support.
>>
>>Good.
> 
> Not so good. It's not really SCSI-2.

Bad.

>>>> Built in Video support
>>> On every NeXT (choose B&W or Color). The Cube can have both.
>>
>>I thought the Cube was now considered a doorstop.
> 
> Like the Quadra 900 & Mac IIfx? :). If it still works it's fine. NeXT is
> still selling Cubes.

Something I picked up from a previous NeXT-o-phile posting. I was under
the impression that the old Cube was considered underpowered. Why would
people keeping buying underpowered NeXT computers? 

>>> Ethernet standard, with TCP/IP, AppleTalk and Novell protocol support.
>>
>>Do all these protocols work out of the box? (TCP/IP with NFS, I believe)
>>Does the NeXT support AppleTalk and Novell without any additional hardware
>>or software, or do you have to add software to support these?
> 
> They work out of the box as clients. The NeXT has a couple of ethernet
> ports, so you shouldn't need extra hardware.

With no software? It comes built in? Good.

>>> Of course, in standard.
>>
>>Can you use multiple monitors as one giant desktop (Something our PC breathren
>>will be unable to do, regardless of NeXTStep 486)
> 
> Yup sure can. Hopefully NeXTSTEP 486 can handle it too (show the Windozers
> how it's done).

There are nasty hardware problems to overcome in the PC platform. Nasty.

>>> And here True 32 bits : using the 24 + 8 for transparency in standard (alpha  
>>> channel) in 21" displays!
>>
>>Uh, 32bit QD has "True 32 bits" as well. Indeed, it uses 24 bits of color plus
>>an 8 bit alpha channel. I bet they even store the data in chunky-planar form.
>>I wonder where NeXT got that idea....
>>
> Has Apple defined a standard for that alpha channel yet. Last I heard, 
> there was no standard, so it was every app for itself. On the NeXT it's
> standardized.

Ouch. I wasn't aware of this.

>>And QuickTime?
> 
> When I want postage-stamp sized movies, I'll go to a cineplex. 

Wait a second. QuickTime has three parts, all important. The image
playing technology is cute, you're right, but you neglect the other two
components:

* Component Manager -- upgrade that Mac with a hardware video card and
suddenly you can play larger QuickTime movies faster, or perhaps you can
now record videos, or tap that LaserDisc video as a QuickTime resource.

* Standards -- QuickTime defines a standard format for all temporal
data, so regardless of what kind of real-time hardware you have, your
data will work across all applications and on other hardware.

> When I want
> these same movies in a word processor document, I'll have trouble
> finding a printer that can handle it. :) :). 

I agree. QuickTime in a WP is stupid. If you are going to have to read
a document on a computer in order to enjoy the movies, then you need something
other than a word processor. Something more like HyperCard, or Macromind 
Director or something. Something more hypertext-like. A different media.

> Seriously, QuickTime is still fairly limited but I imagine the support will 
> be there soon on the NeXT.

Really? Who's doing it? Apple isn't.

>>> Present, and more powerfull. No need to publish and subscribe: simply Copy and  
>>> "Paste and Link (Cmd+Shift+V)"! And works over the network and the platforms!
>>
>>Publish and Subscribe works like Copy and Paste. And Pub and Sub works over
>>networks.
>>
>>Explain exactly how NeXT Step is more powerful.
> 
> It's easier to add to apps (in development) on the NeXT. I've never
> heard as much complaining as I did about Publish & Subscribe implementation.

Well I can believe the easier to add in programming argument.

>>Gee, and the poster never did mention AppleEvents....
> 
> Distributed Objects. Too new to compare.

Interesting.

>>> Seven language available for all the applications in standard.
>>
>>Seven? A ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha..... Seven? Ha ha ha ha ha ha....
>>
>>I would lay odds they are all Roman-scripted.
> 
> Yeah, most North American and European users use Roman base characters.
> This is the standard, one OS for everybody thing. I got all
> seven on my 3.0 CD.

I laugh because handling Roman-scripted characters is a simple thing for an
OS. A visual interface should be able to handle non-Roman scripts with
equal ease. System 7.1 does this.

> If I buy System 7.1 in Canada, does it come with Swedish? Not likely.
> NeXTSTEP does.

Well, if you only handle 7 Roman-scripted languages, I can see why. 

I believe you can get language extensions for System 7.1. Since I don't
know any non-Roman scripted languages myself, I haven't looked into this
issue.

>>
>>Does the NeXT handle Kanji? Chinese? Arabic? Hebrew? I thought not.
> 
> The NeXT Kanji release does. Ask the Japanese.

The Kanji release supports Chinese Arabic and Hebrew? Interesting.

> NeXT is moving toward Unicode. Is Apple?

I think so. Ask 'em.

>>From what I can see, the NeXT has some good elements. But I don't think,
>>as an Apple developer, I'll start being too worried yet. Even with NeXTStep
>>486 coming. Windows and OS/2 seem like a more present danger.
>>
> As an Apple developer, you should worry more about Newton and the PowerPC.

Since the PowerPC is a Mac, I'm not worried at all about it.

As for Newton, it is still vaporware in my book. I saw some really cool
technology at the last developer's conference, but nothing of substance
has been released.

-- 
Bill Coleman, AA4LR                ! CIS: 76067,2327    AppleLink: D1958
Principal Software Engineer        ! Packet Radio: AA4LR @ W4QO
Hayes Microcomputer Products, Inc. ! UUCP: uunet!hayes!bcoleman
POB 105203 Atlanta, GA 30348 USA   ! Internet: bcoleman%hayes@uunet.uu.net
Disclaimer: "My employer doesn't pay me to have opinions."
Quote: "The same light shines on vineyards that makes deserts." -Steve Hackett.

Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy