From: boserj@netcom.com (Jeffrey Boser)
Newsgroups: soc.men
Subject: Re: Adults, Children and sex
Date: 2 Sep 92 21:19:52 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)

danoc@earlybird.Eng.Sun.COM (Dan O'Connell [CONTRACTOR]) writes:
>(Jeffrey Boser) writes:
>
> The point being, what makes you god?  And why must you punish
>
>It isn't just me. It is the society we live in. I didn't make
>child abuse laws, I didn't make statutory rape laws or laws
>against masturbating in public, or laws against incest. It is
>the society you and I both live in, and as members of that
>society we give our tacit agreement to those laws unless we
>speak out against them. That's how this thread started.

I agree.  This thread started because some of us find the laws
to be ineffective, inappropriate, and based on false information
and assumptions.  Examples were given, showing that though there
was a potential for harm, there was also a potential for good.

> two consenting individuals for doing somethign that hasnt hurt
> anybody?  And dont say it has.  We have given you specific
> examples of cases where consent was clear, no coersion was
> evident, and harm was not caused by the act itself.
>
>There is a difference of opinion on "consent". Several people
>have said that small children can give consent. I and most
>of the world (IMO) disagree with this.

That by no means makes your viewpoint the correct one.  People in
america bought lots of Chevies, which were some of the worst built
cars in the world.

IN NO SITUATION should majority opinion guide individual action.
That is why we have a bill of rights in the first place.  Because
knowledge that is a product of our society is almost by definition
inaccurate or misleading.  Societies goals are in constant clash with
those of individuals.

>Psychological harm from older-adult younger-child sex
>has been shown to occur over and over again. As counter
>evidence Mr. Chapin, et al have offered their personal
>experiences.

Of course harm occurs.  Abuse is a very wide-spread and
tragic problem.  But it isnt the act thats abusive.
Abuse can be anything from molestation, to a father spanking
his kid excessively.  Our definitions fall so short of
clarifying the issue its pathetic.  A woman can be harrassed
at work with nothing more than looks of disdain, and our laws
cannot cope.

The abusive and abused mindsets are so hard to define its incredible.
Every single person brushes against the attitudes at least once,
and even then there seems to be little commonality.

Our laws try to define acts that cause abuse.  And they dont work.
Those same acts can be loving and beautiful regardless of age,
and acts taht some consider harmless can ruin a person's life.
If you need examples of this, you should look to your acquiantances.

Because psychology is patheticly inadequate in treating these problems
(just look athe recovery rate of those who are treated and those who
are not, they are almost equivelent) we are left with no tools
to deal with the situation.

So, while we are blindly ruining lives with our laws, what are we
encouraging?  We are encouraging that rapists kill their victims
so they cant talk.  We are encouraging molesters to use terror to
keep their victims silent.  We are encouraging those who are victims
to feel guilty, because when the events are metnioned their entire
life falls under scrutiny.

On top of this, there is evidence that incest is actually a
natural urge.  It certainly is found in many aspects of life,
we joke about it, debate about it, have it..  And its so far
widespread to be incredible.  Many of us have had pleasurable
times in our life spent learning the ins and out of our bodies
and others with those close to us.

Me and others just dont by the equation that (sex when you are young)=abuse,
regardless of who its with.  Abuse and emotional harm are really hard
to catagorize.


>I, and others, have replied that Mr. Chapin's experiences
>are to say the least "unusual"; this can be show by the fact
>that there are no studies I know of which bear out his
>experience as being normal: in fact it is just the opposite.

Incorrect.  There are many studies that show sexual development
as a child occurs at a much younger age than previously considered.
Practially right out of the hospital many babies start touching thier
genetals, and the boy-girl gossip and dirty jokes and silly
whispers and blushes..  its all part of natural growth.  So is the
allure and power of adult sexuality.  This is very normal.


> Your logic can just as easily applied to masturbating children,
> preventing them from possibly hurting themselves emotionally.
> 
>Masturbation, by definition, does not involve getting one's
>parent, much older adult, etc. into the act; therefore this
>argument does not apply.
>
>Dano

We have given you arguments saying that some events do not
involve coercion, and you repeatedly sweep them under the
rug.


.....jeff
Newsgroups: soc.men