From: alexei@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Alexei Moiseyev)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet,soc.culture.europe,talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Estonia 14.
Date: 14 Dec 92 14:57:36 GMT
Organization: Centre for Cognitive Science, Edinburgh, UK

Mr.Hietaniemi writes:
>In article <11972@spark.ed.ac.uk>, alexei@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Alexei Moiseyev) 
>writes:
>> Lastly, I would like to say that I sincerely hope that
>> Messr.Sommarskog, Tammet, and Hietaniemi will PUBLICLY DISSOCIATE
>> themselves from the ober-stormtrooper Vorlund's views, and CONDEMN
>> them for what they are worth.

>Please, Alexei, try to understand the rules of the game: everyone stands
>for his/her own opinions. I have no reason whatsoever to support any
>opinion expressed by any Finn (or Estonian or Swede or Russian). I have
>therefore neither no reason whatsoever to publicly dissociate from
>anybody (of whatever nationality). Besides, I can't comment
>Mr. Vorlund's posting because I did not consider it worth of reading.

As I understand the game there are two well defined camps here.  One
is democratic and the other nationalist.  It also happened that a
contributor to this group expounded a rather extreme version of the
nationalist position.  In this connection appeared to me that the
people in broadly the same camp as Vorlund had to clarify their
positions Viz-a_Viz his pronouncements.  I take this message to be the
dissociation I was asking after.  I am still awaiting Messr.Tammet and
Sommarskog"s response.
 
>> 			DOWN WITH THE NAZI SCUM,
>> 							A.M-T.

>Here, we agree!

>(1) Down with nazis!

>(2) Down with stalinists!  
...................................

>(3) Down with the Molotov - Ribbentrop pact between Stalinists and
>Nazis!
>Do we still agree?

We certainly do!  DOWN WITH THE STALINISTS! DOWN WITH MOLOTOV-RIBBENTROP!

>asks
>Tapani Hietaniemi, Universitas Helsingiensis
>                   urbs fennorum
In an earlier article Mr.Hietaniemi writes:
>In article <11989@kesson.ed.ac.uk>, alexei@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Alexei Moiseyev) 
writes:
T.H.:
>>>Russia has as good leaders as it deserves. > 
A.M-T.
>> I find this sentence offensive in the extreme.  For it justifies the
>> repressions which Russia suffered at the hands of the inhuman monsters
>> who happend to be in charge for most of this century.  

>Finland has as good leaders as it deserves.

Finland is a completely different kettle of fish!  Finland is a
democratic country.

>By the way, according to my humble opinion,
>all nations have as good leaders they deserve.

Sorry for having to humble your opinion even more, but it is quite
unacceptible.  In some countries populations elect their own goverments
and in some they don't.  I believe that "desert" here is a function of
 decision.  Only democratic countries where gov-ts have been
elected may truly be asserted to deserve their leaders.  But what
about countries where leaders have come to power due to some exogenous
force?   It is generally held, in legal and political philosophy, for
instance that somebody deserves, say, some punishment if and only if,
this person is RESPONSIBLE for something which normally calls fot this
punishment.  Hence only RESPONSIBLE can be said to DESERVE.  On the
other hand we are only responsible when we DECIDE, rather when
circumstances force something upon us.  In the case of democratic
countries there is decision, there is responsibility and THEREFORE
there is desert.  There is no decision, no responsibility and NO
DESERT in dictatorships.  The USSR was such a country.  It did not
deserve anything.  Decisions were taken by the clique of top
Communists , they were responsible, they indeed DESRVE.  But this is a
different matter.

>> To the extent to which people
>> like Mr.Hietaniemi are refusing to recognise OUR suffering, 

>Sorry. This is a lie. I haven't refuse recognize anything of the
>nasty past of your Rodina.

No this is not a lie.  You have been trying to minimise and trivialise
Russia's suffering consistently.  This practice twisted the facts and
if it is not a lie I do not know what it is.  

>> to the
>> extent to which there are trying to turn US into scapegoats; 

>Do you mean Russia or United States?

Ha-ha-ha... How very amusing. :-(  Was it not clear from the context?
US as in us, not as in U.S.A.

Mr.Hietaniemi begins to lose his calm and poise:
>More nonsense follows:

>> they are
>> disregarding OUR HUMANITY.  To them, it would appear, our suffering is
>> of no consequence.  Is THIS not discrimination?  Is it not
>> discrimination when so much is made of the suffering of Estonia and
>> nothing is said of the suffering of Russia? 
>> Given this it is no
>> surprise that Mr.Hietaniemi and others find it easy to see MERE
>> "colonists" in the Estonian Russian speakers.				
>I think I have NEVER called Estonian Russian speakers "colonists".

I apologise for attributing this to you.  It's Mr.Tammet's term.  You
obviously do not regard Russian speakers in Estonia as colonists.

>Please, let me fabricate my own arguments. Don't present your
>prejudices about me as my opinions!

Fabricate is a somewhat unfortunate word here.  But then it may just
turn out to be particularly apt.

>Tapani Hietaniemi, Universitas Helsingiensis
>                   urbs fennorum
                                                    A.M-T.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet