From: jsue@ncsa.uiuc.edu (Jeffrey L. Sue)
Newsgroups: talk.abortion,alt.abortion.inequity,soc.women,soc.men
Subject: Re: Abortion and humanity
Date: 16 Nov 92 18:01:47 GMT
Organization: The Dow Chemical Company
Originator: jsue@troon.ncsa.uiuc.edu

In article <1992Nov14.192117.13038@msuinfo.cl.msu.edu> hatcher@MSUPA.PA.MSU.EDU writes:

>I'd say stupid statements like this are obvious
>signs of fetal idolatry.  Some (male) priest indoctrinated him into
>the cult where the "unborn" are the defined as "life" itself and
>women are mere vessels.

Hmm... I don't remember knowing you in my "formative" years, but somehow
you seem to think that you know where I get my values.  Your prejudices
are showing.

>
>Having crossed keyboards with him previously I'm left with the
>impression that he's worried that fetuses/zygotes/embryoes are
>being turned into "sub-class" humans, but doesn't worry about
>grown women falling into such a catagory, because that's thier
>place.  (Ooooooh...putting on my asbetos suit now).

How does this put women into a sub-class of humans?  Merely because we
don't want to destroy something valuable?  I thought that our sphere of
rights only extended as far the sphere of someone else's rights.  Ok, you
don't feel that "fetuses/zygotes/embryoes" have rights.  Slave owners
felt the same way.  If you don't like the comparison to Nazis & slave owners,
tough.  These are *real* examples of where sub-classes of humans were taken
to extreme measures.

However you missed my point completely.  If we allow for *any* sub-class
of humans, we devalue our humanity to ourselves.  I feel that this is a
big mistake, witness the previous examples, as well as the growing racism
and division in European countries (Arian nations, et. al.).

>
>-robert (hatcher@msupa.pa.msu.edu)
>
>PS. Jeffrey, I'm still waiting for those explict, concrete rules
>under which you'd allow abortions.  There must be some cases since
>you keep professing that you're not out to abolish them.  Your
>guidelines should be less controversial than Roe v. Wade that
>they replace, so that we can all end this silly little discussion
>and get back to our fetal worship. 

I didn't say I'd disallow *any* abortions.  Actually what I believe as
a more positive approach for our society would be to build an attitude
such that family, friends, institutions etc., will be willing to
support the decisions, even if the a decision is to have an abortion.

However I feel that some abortions would not be performed with a more
supportive culture.  Some abortions are performed, I believe, because
the women involved would not be supported if they chose to carry the
pregnancy to term.  After the birth there are options available and
many people willing to be parents, if that a young woman would choose not
to keep the baby after birth.  A nine-month stint of "pure hell" for
pregnancy may seem drastic, however we have had millions of people die
in wars fighting for what we "valued" - and that is much worse than 9 months.

Yes, I personally feel that it's best to protect the fetus whenever
possible because I feel that our society is hurt in inmeasurable ways
by dismissing life so casually.  I feel that the use of abortion as a
means of birth control by some, instead of using other,
less-destructive means, is not a positive thing for us.  It's not
"fetal worship" as you like to argue (but then you like to throw out
inflammatory statements as if they add meaning to your arguments).

-- 
-----
Jeff Sue   
 - All opinions are mine -       (and you can't have any, nya nya nya)
Newsgroups: talk.abortion,talk.religion.misc