From: muffy@remarque.berkeley.edu (Muffy Barkocy)
Newsgroups: soc.bi,soc.men,soc.women
Subject: Re: Seperatists etc.
Date: 19 Dec 92 10:04:33
Organization: Natural Language Incorporated
	<lj4265INNbn@exodus.Eng.Sun.COM> <1gu2heINNdco@agate.berkeley.edu>
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In-reply-to: williamt@athena.Eng.Sun.COM's message of 19 Dec 1992 17:41:43 GMT

In article <lj6nmnINN8jo@exodus.Eng.Sun.COM> williamt@athena.Eng.Sun.COM (Dances with Drums) writes:
>In article <1gu2heINNdco@agate.berkeley.edu> rsr@soda.berkeley.edu (Roy S. Rapoport) writes:
>>
>>Traditional feminist arguments against exclusive-menspaces have been that
>>these have been places where business is discussed, where economic
>>opportunities are presented.  Exclusing women from these spaces gave these
>>women less economic opportunities, and as such, discriminated against them
>>on an economic basis.
>----
>There is nothing preventing women from discussing the same topics
>and achieving the same benefits.  

Nothing except the fact that there are so few women who are in a
*position* to "present economic opportunities" to other women.

[SO is insistent and "emotionally coercive" about his space]
>The point I am trying patiently to get across, is that if it is my
>space, then it is *my* space, and I don't want anyone else issuing 
>approval of what goes on there or not.

Indeed.  So, why do you choose to be with a person who would do this?
Are you suggesting that this is something that most/all women do this?
Sure, there are always people who do not give other people space, but
how is that relevant?

>If I am with a group of men, and the conversation turns to work
>related stuff or even business related, I don't want to feel censored because
>we have not allowed women there.  Face it, you put a bunch of computer
>nerds in a room, and it will likely turn to tech talk.  If women are
>there, those same conversations often don't occur -- different topics
>are discussed.

Absolutely false, in my experience.  I have now been a computer person
for 11.5 years, and in all that time, I cannot remember one instance
where a group of us got together and we did not talk about computers/
work, despite the fact that I, a woman, was there.  Even when there were 
other women there, some participating, some clearly bored, that was not
enough to change the talk in any way.  This spans, by the way, at least
five different groups of "computer people"; it is not all from one
group.

>talk results in some talk about forming a startup or business and they
>weren't there to be included.  I don't feel it is necessarily a conscious
>issue -- any more than there are different subjects of conversation
>in women-only groups than when in mixed gender.

The point is, it *is* a "conscious issue" when a group of men form a
"business club" which does not allow women.

Muffy
--

Muffy Barkocy                      | ~Can you tell me how much bleeding/it
muffy@mica.berkeley.edu            |  takes to fill a word with meaning and/
"amorous inclinations"? Aha! I'm   |  how much how much death it takes/to give
not "not straight," I'm *inclined*.|  a slogan breath?~ - Bruce Cockburn
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