From: udumudi@vanilla (u v babu srinivas)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.indian,soc.culture.tamil
Subject: Re: RE : South Indian<> Dravidian
Date: 21 Nov 1992 01:02:44 GMT
Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute
NNTP-Posting-Host: vanilla.wpi.edu
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]

[EASWAR: I really think we should take this discussion away from the
    net to mail and I seriously think our meta-discussion would get in the
    way of the real discussion. I really don't have anything to contribute
    to the real discussion considering my abysmal knowledge of history and 
    archeology. I try to learn to understand what's going on discussion, and
    I don't want to be the source of noise]


e = (EASWAR@PURCCVM.BITNET) wrote:

e>   It should be evident from the context that I was talking about
e>   'effect' in terms of CHANGE IN PERCEPTIONS of Indian netters that this
e>   thread should have achieved.
e>   Hence, you will be polling perceptions of the readers of the nets , not
e>   for example, the charge of an electron. {Your claim that we are talking
e>   science here is still open to scrutiny and it can wait.}

easwar, the poll you conduct would let people know how many believe 
what selvakumar says. fine. but what purpose would that serve? would
you ask selvakumar to stop because majority on s.c.i. haven't changed 
their opinions even after all selvakumar's articles? 

if selvakumar is fighting against the misrepresentation that has been
going on for centuries, then it definitely needs more than just articles
and I am sure he would be aware of that. the poll results, if they 
indicate that many haven't changed their opinions, wouldn't be surprising
to him, though he might have hoped for the opposite. and of course, 
not to forget, SCI is not WORLD and neither it is a forum for
historians :)

I am just a layman. and I just can't form any conclusion by reading
his articles, but would have to work more on my own to know what he
is talking about. I have to gauge the truth in his articles on my own. 

his articles might not change the opinions of the real truth seeking
people, but they might have atleast helped in making people more open
and to question what was (and still is being) taught to us.

but you/I can't ask him to stop because he goes against popular opinion.


e>   for example, the charge of an electron. {Your claim that we are talking
e>   science here is still open to scrutiny and it can wait.}

I will wait for it. and I think it shouldn't wait. If you think what
he says is not science but pure propaganda, then please come out with
it now! it shouldn't wait! 


e> << This is a key claim and so I reproduce it >>
e> => CLAIM 6 : RIGHTING HISTORICAL WRONGS IS DANGEROUS.
e> =>
e> => This should be self-evident. This is what Hitler did and RSS says it is
e> => doing. Let us not repeat the mistakes of the past.

e> {babu srinivas}: 
e> I don't see any relation between these two. attempt to right the
e> [what he perceives as] scientific mis-beliefs is what I see.

e>   No comments. Show it to an uninterested party and he will see no differ
e>   ence between the Dravidian Claims and the others.
e>   Listen without prejudice, and act with some social responsibility.


I think you are really mistaken here. selvakumar's hypothesis, if proven
true, is not like dismantling a mosque and building a temple. it would
just change the what people believed to be true. whatever that might be
done later, would be the work of politicians and not him.


e> << I Repeat these claims, which were completely ignored. >>
e>  ***********************************************************************
e> CLAIM 2 : WE RESPECT AND WORSHIP LORD RAM.
e> 
e> This, I believe, is the acid test. An average South Indian does not
e> denigrate Ram. He does not condone those who burn Lord Ram's effigy on
e> Ramlila (in retaliation to burning of Ravan in the north).
e> 
e> IN FACT, HE SHUDDERS AT THE BLASPHEMY. Being the tolerant soul he is, he
e> ignores them.
e> 
e> CLAIM 3 : Dravidianism can only lead to further divisions in an already
e> fragmented society.
e> 
e>                    The caste system is based on the following
e> propositions which apply equally well to Racism. For example;
e> 
e> 1. A man is born in a Brahmin/Shudra (Aryan/Dravidian).
e> 2. People belonging to different Brahmin and Shudra castes { read
e> Dravidian and Aryan races} are, SOMEHOW, different.
e> 3. If two castes(races) are different, then they can be compared in
e> terms of value/worth, somehow defined.
e> 4. Thus,one caste (race) will be superior to another.


I ignored these claims because I thought they were getting politics
into this, which we need the least in such sort of discussion.


e> The rest of South India ( Non- Dravidians) can see this connection.
e> Thus, they do not support Dravidianism, fully comprehending the
e> repercussions.

truth is not supported or not-supported based on its repercussions.

whatever the truth is, it should never have bad repercussions. I 
know I sound too ideal. but that's how it should be.


e> Religion, like a million other things in life, is a matter of faith. When
e> I said you hurt the sensibilities of others, I am talking about such issu
e> es,and not the nature of science as you point out. As far as I can rememb
e> er, I think Selvakumar said something to the effect of Lord Rama having
e> more faults than Ravana( He might have added Smileys, though).

easwar, as you said, you are talking about religion, where as he was
talking about history and archeology. he sees ram and ravana as 
historical figures. YOU are giving it a political color, by getting
poeple's faith into this. it's his opinion, not that I agree with
it. people should learn to respect others opinions.

in AP, we have movies made by our n.t.rama rao :) depicting dhuryodhana
and karna as truly great individuals, greater than arjuna and bheema..
I saw no unrest. there was a movie where ravana was portrayed as a
great man. there was no unrest. 

I am not comparing selva with n.t.rama rao's movies, but people are open
to other people's opinions. some take them, some ignore. it's always
the politicians who are the root cause behind all the unrest and
intolerance. 

here it is not just selva's opinions. it's his study one has to consider.


e> I can understand your expediencies in trying to be politically correct
e> and hence trying not to respond to the above claim. Incidentally,
e> 'Real Science' has nothing to do with political correctness.

being politically correct has gained a negative connotation as people
try to politically correct in public, but not really strive to be by
themselves. I try not to be politically correct just for the sake of
being politically correct. 


e> The claim equating Dravidian Distinctiveness to Racism and hence no
e> different from Casteism was not discussed by you either. Follow the
e> reasoning and then respond.

I didn't respond because I didn't want to get into that discussion.
once the discussion gets the picture you have been trying to say it
already has [which I don't agree to], then I wouldn't follow it
anymore. of course, I wouldn't ask them to stop.


e> { If you haven't got the message yet, let me be explicit.
e> Wedo not see this Dravidian Stuff in isolation, it is part of a bigger
e> theory and hence we have to know where you are coming from. As long as
e> Selvakumar and the team stuck to Language and Culture, we gave him the
e> benefit of doubt. Soon, however, the team has started downloading its
e> obnoxious and retrogressive race theory. Some distinguishing features of
e> Dravidian Theory are its hatred towards Lord Ram, antagonism towards the
e> Vedas,aryans etc. The Dravidian 'Thinkers' based their theory on not just
e> racial distinction but also a systematic hatred for anything Aryan.
e> 
e> I don't think it is a coincidence that Caste Consciouness is the highest
e> in Tamil Nadu. The rest of South Indians have evolved over the period of
e> time, they are trying to forget Caste while in TN you are not only reinfo
e> -rcing Casteism but also creating race consciousness. It is time you
e> paused and asked yourself as to where you are going.
e> 
e> We do not want this in our states and in the rest of the country. If you
e> decide to screw your state up beyond recognition through hatred, it is
e> your problem.In the process, don't drive a wedge between the rest of
e> South India and the mainstream India.}


I really didn't think he started downloading racist stuff.. though I
saw some statements which I thought were bordering on that, I ignored
them. I see selvakumar as a single person, and I don't consider his
supporters and him as a group spreading lies. I mostly ignore his
supporters unless they have something to say.

I think I understand the real meaning of castes and I don't attribute
any superiority to a person because s/he is of certain culture. so
I wouldn't have any problem accepting their theory if it turns out to be
true. I guess people are not so. they should be educated. I really
can't say more than that.

I am of the opinion that we don't need anyone to control the proceedings
on s.c.i. and the collective opinion of people not letting someone
speak is something I hate. that's what I was against.

phew.. I talked too much. but, as I said before, this meta-discussion
of ours [and a listing of my opinions] is not needed on s.c.i. :)

                                                        -- srinivas
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