HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: dave@cs.arizona.edu (Dave Schaumann)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.misc
Subject: Re: Free will and time travel
Date: 20 Aug 92 22:43:59 GMT
Reply-To: dave@cs.arizona.edu (Dave Schaumann)
Organization: University of Arizona

In article <1992Aug17.200411.25622@udel.edu>, lintz@buster (Brian Lintz) writes:
>In article <1992Aug14.011312.13075@organpipe.uug.arizona.edu> dave@cs.arizona.edu (Dave Schaumann) writes:
>
>>  - You can travel to the past by "reversing" time, so everyone comes
>>    along.  Then, the future you know of will only be one possibility.
>>    The new one that is subsequently  played out will no doubt be
>>    different...
>
>Maybe my problem is that I don't know exactly what you mean by "reversing
>time so that everyone comes along." Could you expand on this?

The analogy posted of running a movie backwards is a good one.  You might
also want to read a short story by Roger Zelazny called "Divine Madness",
which explores this premise (and is also worth reading in its own right).

This (and other interesting stories, some of which explore other
possibilities I raised) can be found in _Trips in Time: Nine Stories
of Science Fiction_, edited by Robert Silverberg.  It doesn't have an
ISBN, and since it was published in 1977, it's probably out of print.
Check at the library, though, since that's where I found a copy today.

Also be sure to read Robert Silverberg's MUgwump 4...

-- 
Caught an internal error--.brainrc restored
From: kasprj@isaac.its.rpi.edu (Jim Kasprzak)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.misc
Subject: Re: yes on consuites
Date: 23 Aug 92 14:12:42 GMT
Reply-To: kasprj@rpi.edu
Organization: The Big Wedge

In article <199208201945.AA13052@natinst.com>, markbr@radian.UUCP (Mark Roth) writes:
|> >Programming -this sounds simple, but if there isn't programming that a
|> <stuff deleted>
|> 
|> This assumes you attend any. I've seen three and a half shifts at cons:
|> the shift that goes to programming, and attends some parties at night 
|> (usually neos);
 
 I'm not sure if this is a fair characterization. I keep seeing the same 
faces at the panels I attend, and a lot of them look like much more experienced
fans than myself (I've only been attending cons for five years, so I'm sure 
there are some who'd have every right to label me a "neo" (-:). I do agree
that there isn't much intersection between this group and the "party" fans.

|> the shift that parties all night and sleeps till noon; 
|> and the shift that stays up the entire con. The half shift are the older
|> fans who once in a while go to programming (if it's something we haven't
|> seen before, or in a while (rare)), but are more like shift 2.
 
 Personally, I try to attend as much programming as possible, watch a bunch
of videos, browse the dealer's room, hang out in the con suite, drop by all the
cool parties, hang out with the filkers after-hours, and get eight hours of 
sleep per night. Of course you have to have mastered the art of inverse time
dilation to be able to do this. 

|> >Con Suite -this is my baliwick 
|>
|> Mine, too.  Philcon, 6 years.
 
 Hm. Were you the guy who kicked us out of the con suite at dawn in '88 when
we were dissolving M&M's in Coke to see if we could get the "m" to come off 
in one piece? Not that I mind your doing that, I realize the place needed
tidying up, but we had a really neat control group going with Skittles and I
was wondering if anyone bothered to note the results.

|> The *real* expense were all the folks who *INSIST* on brand-name
|> sodas (Coke & Pepsi). We spent a LOT more on them then the booze. Y'all want
|> more in the con suite, drink generic soda, and *SHUT UP ABOUT THE COST OF
|> BOOZE*! Name brand sodas are what's being subsidized.
 
 One fan's opinion: stick with the Coke. Beer in the con suite is nice, but
I don't insist on it. If it's a choice between beer and <gag> generic soda
or no beer and Coke, give me the Coke and I'll go to the liquor store and 
get my own beer. Anyways, given the age range of fandom and the growing 
number of teetotalers, good soda will probably make more people happy than
free beer.
------------------------------------------------------------------
     __  Live from Capitaland, heart of the Empire State...
 ___/  | Jim Kasprzak, computer operator @ RPI, Troy, NY, USA
/____ *| Pro-Environment. Pro-Education. Pro-Family. Pro-Choice. 
     \_| Pro-Change. Pro-America. Pro-Clinton.
      ====  e-mail: kasprj@rpi.edu or kasprzak@mts.rpi.edu 
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.misc
From: jim@visix.com (Jim Edwards-Hewitt)
Subject: Re: 'Science Fiction' Stage Plays
Reply-To: jim@visix.com
Organization: Visix Software Inc., Reston, VA
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 92 16:36:25 GMT


Seth Breidbart writes:

>Joseph L. Lockett writes:
>
>> What plays do those on the net know of with a 'science fiction' bent?
>
>Metropolis.
>
>It was in London a few years ago; there was talk about bringing it to
>Broadway, but I haven't heard anything lately.
>

I was lucky enough to be in London when it was playing.  It was great!

	-- Jim

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jim Edwards-Hewitt        jim@visix.com | "He seemed fine once we stuffed
                                        |  him back in his truck..."
Visix Software Inc. ...!uunet!visix!jim |                        -- Sam&Max
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: ISTN100@INDYVAX.IUPUI.EDU ("ELLEN G. COHN")
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.misc
Subject: Re: Yet Another Misleading Cover
Date: 17 Aug 92 16:48:52 GMT

This isn't *exactly* on topic, but whyowhyowhy do the publishers so 
frequently insist on slapping a "THE NEW XANTH NOVEL" (or whatever series
it happens to be - don't ask why Xanth of all things popped into my head
just now - grin) right across the front of the cover?  It messes up the
artwork (which is a pity at least some of the time) and besides, what about
when the next Xanth novel comes out?  That one will also say "THE NEW
XANTH NOVEL" on the front.  It's stupid and annoying, and I wish they'd
stop doing it!

Ellen
==========================================================================
Ellen G. Cohn			School of Public and Environmental Affairs
ISTN100@indyvax.iupui.edu	Indiana University - Indianapolis
				Indianapolis, IN 46202-5152

"I am a Time Lord.....I walk in Eternity."

All opinions in this posting are my own - IUPUI wouldn't touch them
with a ten-foot pole!  But you can borrow them if you like.

==========================================================================
From: bjgaed@bb1t.monsanto.com
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.misc
Subject: Re: Proving the existance of a deity (was Re: Mandatory negatives)
Date: 14 Aug 92 06:46:47 CST
Organization: Monsanto Company, St. Louis, MO

In article <1992Aug14.005407.12901@organpipe.uug.arizona.edu>, 
dave@cs.arizona.edu (Dave Schaumann) writes:

> If evolution is to be regarded as a viable theory, it must explain the
> apparent contradiction with entropy (and other difficulties as well).
> In fact, it seems you must postulate some kind of force which causes
> systems to go from a chaotic state to more and more organized states
> (the exact opposite of entropy) for any `godless' orgin theory of the
> universe.
> 
> So where is this `anti-entropy'?  Where are the experimental results
> that show it works?  Where are the equasions that describe its operation?

Try the 2nd law of thermodynamics.  The entropy of any particular system
(e.g., Dave) may decrease as long as the entropy of the entire system 
(e.g., the physical universe) increases.  Evidence:  The evolution of 
Dave vs. the rise of multiple spellings for the word "equations". 8{)


--Electric Monk            (Bruce Gaede); 
                            e-mail: bjgaed@ccmail.monsanto.com

"...and then time started seriously to pass."
--Douglas Adams, _Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency_
From: ISTN100@INDYVAX.IUPUI.EDU ("ELLEN G. COHN")
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.misc
Subject: Cons
Date: 21 Aug 92 16:56:21 GMT
Article-I.D.: INDYVAX.01GNUC2DSS5U001U38

I've been reading everyone's comments about hand radios, and how some security
types get rather carried away by their own importance, as symbolized by
the radio, and it drew my attention to some stuff going on this week at the
Indiana State Fair.  I'm a volunteer for the Red Cross, so I've been spending a
lot of time out at the fairgrounds.  Now, they've got workers out there to
direct you to your parking space - they give them these, well, sort of baton 
things - like a flashlight with a plastic baton that fits over it, you know
what I mean?  Anyway, I've been having a blast watching the men with these
things, acting like they are so incredibly important because they are holding
the baton.  It's hilarious (and don't they get annoyed when I tell them I'm
Red Cross and don't have to park where they tell me to!  Ooohh....it's
so funny!)  And the ones with the radios are silly also; they sort of strut
around, one hand always on the radio clipped to the belt (so that you will
be sure to notice it's there!).  And when they use it, they stand up very
straight, flourish the radio very theatrically, and look incredibly serious
the whole time they are talking into it (usually about something like 
a rubbish bin that needs to be emptied - grin).  So I guess I know what you
mean about con security.  ;-)  ;-)  ;-)

Ellen - the Crime Doctor

P.S.  I've been wondering - what do concoms generally do about First Aid?
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.misc
From: xtifr@netcom.com (Chris Waters)
Subject: Re: Proving the existance of a deity (was Re: Mandatory negatives)
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 92 08:23:30 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 

In <1992Aug18.002908.20040@organpipe.uug.arizona.edu> dave@cs.arizona.edu (Dave Schaumann) writes:

>[I know I promised to stay out of this, but I just couldn't pass this up...]

Me too!  :-)

>In article <4756@balrog.ctron.com>, smith@ctron (Larry Smith) writes:
>>And Dawkins goes to great lengths to (a) point out those forms and (b) explain
>>why the fossil record cannot be trusted to provide a complete explanation.
>         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

>"The fossil record cannot be trusted to provide a complete explanation"??!!!

>Dang.  I guess I must be way behind the times when it comes to the scientific
>method.  I thought it went "you form a hypothesis to fit the facts; if the
>facts don't fit the hypothesis, you toss the hypothesis and not the facts".

No, no, no, you obviously don't understand the scientific method.  There
are two approaches you can take:

First:
  1. formulate hypothesis
  2. apply for grant
  3. collect data
  4. munge data to fit hypothesis
  5. publish

Second:
  1. formulate hypothesis
  2. apply for grant
  3. collect data
  4. revise hypothesis to match data--backdate revised hypothesis to
     avoid appearing to be a fool.
  5. publish

A new school has arisen recently which suggests a careful balance of
these two.  The new approach is often referred to by the name of its
chief proponent, Dr. Thomas Finagle of Arkham State.  :-)

>But I guess certain hypothesis are above reproach, right?  'Cause if
>Darwin was wrong, and evolution is a house of cards... well, that really
>only leaves one possibility, doesn't it?.  And if you're philisophically
>opposed to that possibility on a fundamental level...

Only one possibility?  I can think of at least five possible
alternatives to evolution.  Of those alternate hypotheses, the existence
of a diety ranks about fourth, behind directed panspermia (isn't Hoyle
one of the big boosters of that idea?), galactic zoo (yes there was a
creator--on this planet--and they're small and green), and spontaneous
combustion (maybe the ancient Egyptians were right, maybe flies really
*are* the offspring of shit).  Only the idea that this planet is part of
a massive computer simulation seems less likely than the existence of a
deity.  To me.  Your own results may vary, but in any case, there are
certainly more than two possibilities.  I came up with five without
spending more than a moment in thought.  :-)

But the smart money is all betting on evolution.  :-)
-- 
Chris Waters    | the insane don't | NOBODY for President!
xtifr@netcom.COM| need disclaimers | Because Nobody's perfect!!
From: cass8806@elan.glassboro.edu (KYLE CASSIDY)
Subject: Re: 'Science Fiction' Stage Plays
Organization: Glassboro State College, Glassboro, NJ
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 15:07:45 GMT

In article <1992Aug11.122129.5664@linus.mitre.org> bwise@hemlock.mitre.org (Barry Wise) writes:

>In article <1992Aug10.235309.12586@fid.morgan.com> sethb@fid.morgan.com (Seth  
>Breidbart) writes:

>I believe RUR, where the term 'robot' came from, was a stage play. Can't  
>remember the author although I think he was Czech.

didn't issiac asimov coin the term "robot?"

is this a faq? am i going to get flamed now?

kc
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.misc
From: zellich@STL-07SIMA.ARMY.MIL (Rich Zellich)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.misc
Subject: Adults-only cons (Re: Confabulation)
Date: 12 Aug 92 15:43:20 GMT

I don't have any info. on Confabulation, but there are at least 3 other
adults-only cons that I know of.  Czarkon (going by various similar-
sounding names...this year's was Sharkon with, obviously, a shark motif)
here in St. Louis is, I think, the original "adults-only" sort-of relaxacon
(under 18 not allowed, under 21 discouraged); Czarkon is, umm, "different".
I think Bobbi Belknaps new Conflation (first one will be March '93) will
also be adults-only, although perhaps closer to a "normal" con than Czarkon.
And there's a relatively new one in the Seattle area (new last year or this,
I don't remember).

For info. on Czarkon next year, write or call me (no, I don't run it, but
will have any info. there is when it becomes available...right now, there's
not even a hotel or date since the con chair is in California).  It will
probably be in February, but could be changed to any date in the year.

For info. on Conflation, write Bobbi Belknap, 5138 Old Lemay Ferry Rd. #B,
Imperial, MO  63052.

For info. on the Seattle con (don't remember the name), write to Dave &
Cindy Ptasnik, 6503 28th Ave. NE, Seattle, WA  98115.

Cheers,
Rich
(314) FAN-3026
zellich@st-louis-emh2.army.mil
zellich@stl-07sima.army.mil (both addresses internally route to this one;
                             some hosts may have an easier time routing
                             to the other one)
From: dave@cs.arizona.edu (Dave Schaumann)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.misc
Subject: Re: Free will and time travel
Date: 20 Aug 92 23:08:32 GMT
Reply-To: dave@cs.arizona.edu (Dave Schaumann)
Organization: University of Arizona

In article <1992Aug19.175505.19366@udel.edu>, lintz@buster (Brian Lintz) writes:
[...]
>That was what I thought he meant. If that's the case, I don't know what the
>difference is between that and the other type when he said basically you
>had one timeline (as opposed to alternate universes) and the past could be
>changed.

In my first scenario, I proposed the possibility that the past is changable.
What I meant was that it might spontaneously change, with no intervention
from a time traveler.  This is very different from the usual accepted notion
of a fixed past, and it's hard to get a grasp on.

We view choices that were made in the past as fixed and unchangable.  My
proposal is "what if that were not so?"  Then it might be possible that
the 1960 election might switch from Kennedy to Nixon spontaneously.  The
trouble is, what happens to us?  Do we continue on, unaware of a change, 
or suddenly aware of two pasts, or what?

And what about the future that was before the change? (if you get my
meaning)  Did it "happen"?  The more I think about this possibility, the
more I think that it is impossible to construct a consistant model from
it... I could be wrong, though.

-- 
Dave Schaumann			dave@cs.arizona.edu
From: CDOMS@VAX1.UMKC.EDU
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.misc
Subject: Re: Science Fiction Plays
Date: 13 Aug 92 21:53:54 GMT

I looked into a Library card catalog.  There is a subject heading under

Science Fiction Plays 
Science Fiction Plays, American.

I only found one book in our system, that was for Childrens plays which
included one-act plays, royalty free plays, etc. 

So my advice, is check out your local library, or if you have access
to OPAC systems you can check holdings of other libraries.

Carol Doms
University of Missouri-Kansas CIty
cdoms@umkcvax1
cdoms@vax1.umkc.edu
Xref: sparky rec.arts.sf.misc:2550 rec.arts.sf.fandom:856
From: Laurie Mann
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.misc,rec.arts.sf.fandom
Subject: Rivercon (Re: CONS)
Date: 12 Aug 92 13:39:27 GMT
Reply-To: lmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com
Followup-To: rec.arts.sf.misc

"ELLEN G. COHN" writes
>Now that I've been to a variety of cons, my thought on what I did and 
>didn't like......
>1.  It's very nice if the con hotel is very very near to some inexpensive
>restaurants, fast food, that sort of thing.  RiverCon, in Louisville, KY,
>is held in a hotel which is next door to a large indoor mall

The only bad thing about the mall was that almost none of the restaurants
were open on Sunday, otherwise I agree with you.  Good variety of
restaurants there, and the in-hotel restaurant was pretty good.

>3.  A con committee that is readily available to the attendees - if a
>fan needs help, where to go for it should be totally clear.

Yep.  They were all VERY helpful.

I'd also add, a con that treats its guests and program participants
well.  I'd never been a guest before, and I was treated really well.
I had a great time, and so did Bruce Pelz, Misty Lackey and Doug
Chaffee.  The
riverboat ride and leisurely Sunday night dinner were WONDERFUL.
I learned more about treating guests well, and just in time
to manage VIP relations for the next Boskone.

*  NeXT: lmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com * GEnie:  Laurie.Mann  *
**** Vote to can George and Dan! **  Vote for CHANGE in 1992!****
**********    Member of the cultural elite and PROUD!  **********
From: smith@ctron.com (Larry Smith)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.misc
Subject: Re: Proving the existance of a deity (was Re: Mandatory negatives)
Date: 18 Aug 92 13:40:23 GMT
Reply-To: smith@ctron.com
Organization: Cabletron Systems, Inc.

In article <1992Aug18.002908.20040@organpipe.uug.arizona.edu>, dave@cs.arizona.edu (Dave Schaumann) writes:

>"The fossil record cannot be trusted to provide a complete explanation"??!!!

Dave, don't be a dit, please.  You should realize with just a moments thought
that the probability of fossilization of any given corpse is just not linear.
Animals that lived in environments more conducive to preservation, like certain
kinds of bogs and mudflats, are over-represented.  Species which lived in areas
where little was or could be preserved are under-represented, or even un-rep-
resented, their existence inferred from fossils which were preserved.  It is
this non-random quality that people with little understanding of evolution use
to attack the theory, and the attack sounds convincing only because so few
people know anything about statistics.

>Dang.  I guess I must be way behind the times when it comes to the scientific
>method.  I thought it went "you form a hypothesis to fit the facts; if the
>facts don't fit the hypothesis, you toss the hypothesis and not the facts".

Fossils are no longer the only source of information about evolution.  Since
we have unravelled the genetic operators and begun simulating evolution in
computers, we have been able to go back to the fossil record with a fresh eye.
The results have been gratifying, as anyone with an interest in biology and
computer science can tell you.  "The Blind Watchmaker", by Richard Dawkins,
should be required reading for anyone venturing an opinion on the subject.

>But I guess certain hypothesis are above reproach, right?  'Cause if
>Darwin was wrong, and evolution is a house of cards... well, that really
>only leaves one possibility, doesn't it?.

Right.  It means some other mechanism is responsible for driving the evolution
which the fossil record _does_ show very clearly.  Evolutionists are arguing
detail, not basics, evolution is no more likely to be overthrown than is
gravity.

Larry Smith (smith@ctron.com) No, I don't speak for Cabletron.
-------------------------------------------------------------
Daily I'd go over to Congress - that grand old benevolent national asylum - and
report on the inmates there.  Never seen a body of men with tongues more handy,
or information more uncertain.  If one of those men had been present when the
Deity was on the point of saying "Let there be light" we never would've had it.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.misc
From: mvp@hsv3.lsil.com (Mike Van Pelt)
Subject: Re: CONS and video
Organization: Video 7 + G2 = Headland Technology
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 23:20:03 GMT

In article <01GNGPGPNHOC000FMG@INDYVAX.IUPUI.EDU> ISTN100@INDYVAX.IUPUI.EDU ("ELLEN G. COHN") writes:
>6.  Good video rooms.

This looks likely to go away entirely in the near future.  This last
BayCon's video track had to be cancelled because the studios demanded
lots of money ($250, I think) per showing for each film. Indications
seem to be that they consider con showings to be "piracy" and are
starting to take notice and crack down.  Up until now it's been a
case of "what the studios don't know won't cost us..."

-- 
Mike Van Pelt                       When the fog came in on little cat feet
Headland Technology/Video 7         last night, it left these little muddy
sun!indetech!hsv3!mvp               paw prints on the hood of my car.
mvp@hsv3.lsil.com
From: delingma@THUNDER.LAKEHEADU.CA (Dan Lingman)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.misc
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V17 #432
Date: 18 Aug 92 19:04:34 GMT

Can you un subscribe me - I have been trying for a day or so now, but to
no avail.

thanks.

Dan Lingman
delingma@thunder.lakeheadu.ca
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.misc
From: bskendig@netcom.com (Brian Kendig)
Subject: Where's a good sci-fi/anime store in the Bay Area?
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 92 19:31:45 GMT
Organization: Starfleet Headquarters: San Francisco
Distribution: ba

Where is there a good store in the Bay Area (preferably close to
Redwood Shores, where I am) that sells such things as plastic models
of anime stuff, and Star Trek posters?

     << Brian >>
From: jc@crosfield.co.uk (jerry cullingford)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.misc
Subject: Re: Book/Story id: McCaffrey?
Date: 14 Aug 92 14:13:19 GMT
Organization: Crosfield Electronics, Hemel Hempstead, United Kingdom.

In article <BsK2DD.ru@brunel.ac.uk> Robert.Turner@brunel.ac.uk (Robert Turner) writes:
>The closest for a McCaffrey book is 'The Girl who Heard Dragons', a
>short(ish) story. Can't remember the anthology, but the characters were
>utilised in 'The Renegades of Pern'.

I have a vague memory of seeing someone say that TGwHD was a limited or
short run edition, so it may be hard to find...
-- 
+------------------------------------------------------------------+     |
| Jerry Cullingford  #include <std.disclaimer> +44 442 230000 x3868|   ,-|--
| jc@crosfield.co.uk (jc@cel.uucp) or jc@selune.demon.co.uk        |   \_|__
+-----(Work)---------------------------------(home)----------------+ \___/
From: CSDE1322@cl.uh.EDU
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.misc
Subject: RE: SF-LOVERS Digest   V17 #421
Date: 13 Aug 92 22:23:00 GMT


   I've never seen Rossum's Universal Robots nor have I read it becasue
I've heard many people say that it is indeed a poorly written piece of
literature?  Among those who said this I believe was Isaac Asimov?
Is this indeed the general opinion - should I go out and read it...
I don't know


Chris M. Brinson
bitnet : CSDE1322@UHCL2

Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.misc