HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From:  (David Ingham)
Subject: Re: Mat (was Aes Sedai)
Organization: Beer R Us
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 15:03:44 GMT
Followup-To: rec.arts.sf.written

In article <darknite.728034915@camelot>, darknite@camelot.bradley.edu (John
S. Novak III) wrote:
> 
> In <1993Jan25.221339.19643@lmpsbbs.comm.mot.com> (David Ingham) writes:
> 
> >In article <1993Jan25.183058.21079@cc.gatech.edu>, erica@cc.gatech.edu
> >(Erica Liebman Sadun) wrote:
> spoilers:
> 
> 
> >> (3) Who was Mat? In rereading, I realize that he can't be King Arthur because
> >> 	Art is one of the dead heroes that stops by to say hi y'all and 
> >> 	call Rand Lewin.  My guess is aemon.  Clues: Red Eagle, massive
> >> 	gambler and that battle scene against the thousands of ravening
> >> 	trollocs.
> 
> >Mat was only made one of the heroes after he was separated from the Dagger
> >by the White Tower.  Notice in the first two books he didn't show any signs
> >of his luck or speaking in the old tounge.  Kind of like a time distortion.
> > Maybe aemon was his great, great , great etc. grandfather.
> 
> Are you speaking about one of the characters being bound to the
> Wheel, to be spit out again and again?  (This was at the end of
> TGH)  I had the distinct impression that it was Perrin who was
> going to be bound to the Wheel-- which makes sense, because he
> doesn't seem to be a reincarnation of anyone...
> 
> Also, it doesn't seem significant that Mat would be a direct
> blooded descendent of Aemon.  After centuries, the bloodlines are
> so twisted that if Mat can trace a connection, damn near everyone
> in the farms surrounding Emond's Field could claim kinship.  It
> does seem signifcant, though, that as the Old Blood runs strong
> in the Two Rivers, Two Rivers blood seems to run strong in Mat.
> Like a river splitting into a thousand tributaries, and joining
> back, miraculously, a mile before the delta.  Mat's own, unique
> mark as being a product of the Lace of Ages.

What I was trying to say (and not doing a very good job of it) was that
IMHO, Mat is not really reincarnated from anyone.  Wasn't Shadar Logoth
(sp?) created during the trolloc wars? If so, it seems that to break the
daggers bound on Mat, he was taken back to that time (spiritually of
course), and the tie was severed.  As a result he seems to have memories
and abilities from that time.

> John S. Novak, III		darknite@camelot.bradley.edu

*************************************************
* David Ingham  *   Place wacky signature here  *
*************************************************
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: mwhatt01@ulkyvx.louisville.edu
Subject: writing Styles
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 20:23:45 GMT
Organization: University of Louisville

I am curious as to what this groups opinions are concerning writing
styles.  Do you like a writer who as a very clear style so that
you don't even notice it.  Or do you prefer writing that is highly
stylized.  

I have noticed many movie critics complain that the director was trying
to get noticed.  In other words he made them notice the direction.

Personally I like style in writing or directing.  For instance
I loved Dracula.  Also Tolkiens style, especially in Return of The King,
was wonderful, it was like poetry.

I'm not arguing style over substance, but do you prefer prose closer to
poetry or more straightforward?
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: schmunk@spacsun.rice.edu (Robert Schmunk)
Subject: Re: Steven R. Boyett
Reply-To: schmunk@spacsun.rice.edu (Robert Schmunk)
Organization: Dept. of Space Physics, Rice University, Houston TX
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1993 20:50:04 GMT

In article <9301230829.AA05234@rutgers.edu>, RKOSTER3@UA1VM.UA.EDU (Raph Koster) writes:
|> I have read  Ariel and The Architect of Sleep & enjoyed both. What is
|> the title of the second book in the Architect of Sleep series and
|> how might it be found? When did it come out? Anybody have an ISBN number?

Well, this is only hearsay, but it's my understanding that the sequel to
ARCHITECT was never published. Sales were too [s]low and the publisher
didn't feel like trying again.

-- 
Robert B. Schmunk <schmunk@spacsun.rice.edu>
SPAC, Rice Univ, Box 1892, Houston, TX 77251 USA
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
[He] turned back to the window and the opaque Houston sky. "You know, there
isn't anything wrong with this town that a couple of really good hurricanes
couldn't fix."                                      --Peter Gent, THE FRANCHISE
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: tara@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Lady Johanna Constantine)
Subject: Re: Aes Sedai
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 22:04:48 GMT

alanb@sdl.ug.eds.com (Alan Braggins) writes:

>>>>>> On Fri, 22 Jan 1993 22:03:10 GMT, tara@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Lady Johanna Constantine) said:
>>>> 
>>>> Aes Sedai:

>> I haven't the foggiest what this thread is about,
>> but could the Aes Sedai have anythggn to do with
>> the Aes Sidhe, the People of the Sidh ie: The Tuatha De
>> Danaans (the fay, the Sidhe, etc.)?

>I think the general concensus in the recent r.g.frp.misc
>discussion/flamewar was that the Tuatha De Danaan are not
>the same beings as the Sidhe.

What is r.g.frp.misc?  I want in on this!!!


LJC

-- 
Lady Johanna Constantine* Tales and dreams are the shadow-truths that will
tara@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu   * endure when mere facts are dust, and ashes, and
Disclaimer - huh?       * forgot.      -Dream of the Endless (and Neil G.)
LJC of the Net.Trenchcoat.brigade (Hi Elmo ;)
From: w95_cook@wums.wustl.edu
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: RE: Any GOOD sf-magazines/bookclubs?
Date: 27 JAN 93 08:39:45 GMT
Organization: MIT PLASMA FUSION CENTER
NNTP-Posting-Host: msnews.wustl.edu

In a previous article, expert@diku.dk (Stephan Grubbe) wrote:
>I'm a big fan of Isaac Asimov and I have recently started reading his early
>work. It seems that he used to get his work published via magazines. My
>question is if such GOOD magazine still exist and if not does there exist a
>sort of bookclub specially for sf?
> 

Personally, I'm very fond of Science Fiction Age, which just began
publishing about 6 months ago.  It's a little more expensive than the
tabloids, but I think it's worth it to have the full-size, full-color
artwork that accompanies most pieces.  

And, yes, there is a Science Fiction Bookclub.  It offers the popular sellers
and many of the outright classics at fairly reduced prices.  Unfortunately,
they only sell in hardback, so even at these reduced prices, you're paying
around $10 for a book.  Also, they often sell their own "bookclub" editions
rather than the editions found at bookstores.  This seems to bother some
people, but it's never really bugged me.




_______________________________________________________________

Jim Cook
W95_COOK@wums.wustl.edu

_______________________________________________________________

Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: cjh@tinton.ccur.com (Christopher J. Henrich)
Subject: Re: Tolkien's (and Donaldson's) style (was Re: writing Styles)
Organization: Concurrent Computer Corp., Tinton Falls, NJ
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 19:26:02 GMT

In article <KERS.93Jan26100119@cdollin.hpl.hp.com> kers@hplb.hpl.hp.com (Chris Dollin) writes:
>In article ... robertm@alumni.cs.colorado.edu (MONTGOMERY ROBERT PH) writes:
>> [somewhat negative evaluation of Tolkien]
>
>>  I know Tolkien was trying to create a realistic world,
>>  but I found a lot of that to be chaff, irrelevant to the story.
>
>This is a question of taste, I think; the world is real. (Remember, too,
>that LotR was written when fantasy was *not* a specific, wide-spread genre.
>Did Tolkien have to write that much detail to keep inexperienced readers
>under control?)
Tolkien worked so hard over the details because that's the kind of a
writer he was.  His son, Christopher Tolkien, has read selections of
his father's manuscripts to the Mythopoeic Society (fans of Tolkien),
showing how much care he took to get the details right.  For
instance, if the moon was full in Chapter N, it had better not be
full two weeks later in Chapter N+1.  As a reader, I never
consciously noticed this sort of thing, but I bet it contributed
subtly to my enjoyment of the stories.

Except for a few bits in the Hobbit, later patched up, Tolkien never,
never condescended to the immature reader.  I think he would have
agreed with the Dorothy Parker quotation about not writing down
that somebody in rec.arts.books uses for a signature quote.

[...]
>I'm not sure if this is taste, or convention (and if the latter, whether it be
>genre-specific or distributed through modern writing), but I find the
>multifarious ways of saying ``said'' to be more noticable (and objectionable)
>than repeated use of ``said''. That gasped, it should -- sorry, I prefer it to
>-- be used sparingly. (Using variants regularly tend to make them less
>effective.)

There is a genre of jokes, called "Swifties," parodying this
practice.  I can't remember any good ones; perhaps someone else...?

[...]
>>  Anyway, back to Tolkien.  My impression is that his LotR is the first
>>  major fantasy that a lot of people read, and it is in some ways like
>>  a "first love."  
>
>It *was*. Nowadays that seems unlikely, as there is so much other fantasy on
>the shelves. Beginners are more likely to pick up Anthony, or Wolfe, or ...
The inexperienced reader who starts with Wolfe will escape to Tolkien
with a loud sigh of relief.
>
>Kers.       | "A foolish hobgoblin has the consistency of little minds".

Regards,
Chris Henrich
"A consistent foolishness is the mind of a little hobgoblin."
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: dani@netcom.com (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Re: Vernor Vinge's new book...
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 00:44:33 GMT

dcs@neutron.chem.yale.edu (Dave Schweisguth):
>: P.S. Notice how well he's captured the flavor of the Net? I'm sure
>: that "Death to Vermin" guy's posted here before :-) . 
>
>If 50,000 years and the computational
>advantages of the Beyond don't improve network communications...

It was a direct steal from the net, and it worked rather well.  I thought
the similarities well motivated, though.  They didn't just stem from
a lack of imagination.  The main thing to remember is that, despite
the overwhelming number of messages, the main constraints on Vinge's
net are a narrow bandwidth -- exceedingly narrow as you move to the
lower Beyond -- and a very high cost.  Each of the participants is
not an individual, as is the case here, but a planetary system or
equivalent, that is choosing to spend a noticeable portion of its
budget on these communications.

-----
Dani Zweig
dani@netcom.com

   The inability of snakes to count is actually a refusal, on their part,
    to appreciate the Cardinal Number system. -- "Actual Facts"
From: cozzlab@garnet.berkeley.edu ()
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Update of G. R. Dickson's Childe Cycle bibliography
Date: 21 Jan 1993 23:49:21 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: garnet.berkeley.edu

In article <1993Jan21.203920.24052@asns.tredydev.Unisys.COM> tmm@asns.tredydev.Unisys.COM (Tim McCaffrey) writes:
>I don't know if Dickson did it just to pull peoples legs, but
>Bleys was mentioned very briefly in "The Dragon Knight" as
>the teacher of Merlin.  

Bleys, or Blaise, or Belasius is a traditional name of the teacher
of Merlin (or one of them).  

Dorothy J. Heydt
UC Berkeley
cozzlab@garnet.berkeley.edu

Disclaimer:  UCB and the Cozzarelli lab are not responsible for my
opinions, and in fact I don't think they know I have any.
From: pvanheus@frodo.cs.uct.ac.za (P A van Heusden)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Tolkien's (and Donaldson's) style (was Re: writing Styles)
Date: 28 Jan 93 12:01:37 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Department, University of Cape Town


>In article ... robertm@alumni.cs.colorado.edu (MONTGOMERY ROBERT PH) writes:

[a lot of stuff which you've all read, so I'll not quote]

I think we're dealing with a problem of outlook. Robert seems to read 
fantasy (as do most people) as pure entertainment. Tolkien wrote fantasy
as a subcreation. So, sure, there's a lot of 'superflous' detail, detail 
which does not contribute to the story. But the point is, the story is not
all... the world, the actions of the people, are in fact dealing with 
problems on a larger scale, ie. the reluctant hero, etc. (I cannot do
justice to the books depth in these short words, so I assume you people
will give me some leniency if I don't prove everything) I hold entirely
with Tolkien's theory of Fantasy and Recovery (but not the rest). 

Tolkien is not pure escapism, and should not be read as such. Donaldson is 
also not escapism though. I liked the first couple of books, but most 
serious critics pan him as having a terrible style of writing from a 
literary point of view, and the story gets far too angst filled, especially
in the second series.

Criticising Tolkien because he is not 'as much fun' to read is a little like
criticism Beckett since nothing happens in his stories. And frankly, I'm
sick and tired of people telling me Eddings, various TSR writers, and their
neighbours goat write better than Tolkien because they are easier and 'more
fun' to read.

Just to close off: Fine, there are stylistic signs that Tolkien was writing in
an earlier period. So was Shakespeare.

Peter 

 

--
*******************************************************************************
Peter van Heusden              "The extreme always makes an impression"
CS2, UCT, Cape Town, RSA             J.D. - Lethal Attraction 
pvanheus@frodo.cs.uct.ac.za              
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: markrose@spss.com (Mark Rosenfelder)
Subject: Re: Is SF imaginative?
Organization: SPSS Inc.
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 16:59:30 GMT

In article <1k27lv$f1t@agate.berkeley.edu> curtis@cs.berkeley.edu (Curtis 
Yarvin) writes (quoting me):
>>Gibson?  He's as ideological as they come, I'd say.  The consistent use
>>of dystopia and moral neutrality *is* an ideological statement.
>
>If you think that way, _everything_ is an ideological
>statement.  Even a romance novel is an ideological statement -
>the author has chosen to write about beautiful healthy rich
>white people instead of oppressed leprotic Somalians!

I wouldn't go so far as that.  To me, an ideological work is saying, "This
is the Way Things Are (socially, cosmically, whatever)".  The Way Things Are,
as in Gibson, may be bleak and anomia-inducing.  The non-ideological work says
"Maybe things are like this.  Or maybe not but let's check it out anyway."

>Literature is often quite the Rorschach test.

OK, I see in it two penguins kissing, or maybe Cher after a car crash.
From: saruman@cats.ucsc.edu (Nicholas Patrick Popoff)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Brin's 'The Postman'
Date: 22 Jan 1993 03:03:01 GMT
Organization: University of California; Santa Cruz
NNTP-Posting-Host: si.ucsc.edu


>> What is the reason/idea/symbolism behind the bear patch which the captured
>> supposedly Californian soldier is wearing? Something obvious which I missed
>> or something slightly more subtle?

	Basically Brin is saying that California still exists, still
has power, and has a guy in a uniform all the way out to wherever the
main character was.  Its the possiblity of optimism... Thats why the
main character heads for California at the end.  He wants to find the
goverment or whatever they have over there.
From: jprlarib@cs.ruu.nl (Jan Peter Laribij)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Jack Vance bibliography (posting error)
Date: 27 Jan 93 15:49:06 GMT
Organization: Utrecht University, Dept. of Computer Science


I'm sorry the original posting appeared twice, but when I posted it the first
time a message appeared saying the posting had been cancelled, so I posted it
again.

Sorry for wasting you're bandwidth.
-- 
Jan Peter Laribij, Student Computer Science. E-mail : jprlarib@cs.ruu.nl
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: brad@clarinet.com (Brad Templeton)
Subject: Re: Yet more on Brin
Organization: ClariNet Communications Corp.
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 20:09:59 GMT

In article <9301211420.aa02621@msi8500.micros.com> mike@micros.COM ("Michael J. Lonski") writes:
>feel that it was a lot more likely to get a good answer from home.  Yet one
>more indication that the Earth branch was only a small subset.

I doubt anybody disputes that.  It's how Brin wrote it.  I disputed that
the reason for this (or for special missing references, such as those to
Earth) would likely be "cost of storage."   It would either have to be
political, as some suppose, or the result of a fanatical monopoly by
the librarians.

The key to this, either way, is not that there would be everything in
the Earth library or any other.  It's the simple fact that unless the whole
of science and study is done differently, there would be summary works
written about every planet ever charted, every species studied, every
technology used or developed.   Storing that collection of summary works,
even if each were encyclopedic in size, is possible with today's technology
and should be easy with future technology.

The question is not on this Library's inability to answer questions like,
"What did construction worker Joe Wagga miss on his tax return 250 million
years ago on plant zorgon?"   It is the inability to answer questions like,
"What race lived on planet zorgon." or "What is the Earth" which makes no
sense, from a technological and bibliographic standpoint.
-- 
Brad Templeton, ClariNet Communications Corp. -- Sunnyvale, CA 408/296-0366
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: tara@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Lady Johanna Constantine)
Subject: Re: Aes Sedai
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1993 04:20:36 GMT

knott@sfu.ca (Dave Knott) writes:

>> but could the Aes Sedai have anythggn to do with
>> the Aes Sidhe, the People of the Sidh ie: The Tuatha De
>> Danaans (the fay, the Sidhe, etc.)?
>> 
>> I noticed the grail and Arthur in this post, so I thought
>> since those celtic things were mentioned, I might
>> as well give it a shot.

>	Eh? What? Who? Please define: Who or what are Aes Sidhe and Tuatha  
>De Danaans? You seem to imply that they have something to do with  
>Arthurian or celtic legends. My Lady Johanna, I am sure that any _Wheel of  
>Time_ fan would be most fascinated by any information about them.

Okay, for them what don't know, the Faery, before they were the Faery,
were a race of beautiful men adn women who came to Irelend.  Warriors
and craftsmen, doctors and poets, they were the Children of Nemed.

The last of these were called the Tuatha De Dannan, the Children of Danu
(or the Welsh Anu.  The Great Mother).  They lost Ireland to the Gaels,
humans, after an amazing battle called teh Second Battle of Magh Turiedh.

They shared the world with a Gaels.  eh Gael got the top of the land,
the Tuatha De Dannans, who now becasue the Aes Sidhe, those from the Sidh 
(their barrows, the doorways to Faerie), took what was beneath the land.

All these stories, and more, are found in old irish texts and the orally
transitted stories that are told to this day.  The Arthurian Legend
has its roots in Celtic mythology, specifically the Welsh (try reading
a good translation of the Mabinigion) and also the stories of the warriors
of the North, Fionn MacCumhail, who led a strong band called the Fenians.

If you want to knwo any mroe, go lok it up.  That's what I did.
I can't possibly supply a book list, so no one ask me.  It's all gleened
from different places, adn I can't barely rememebr half of them now.


Have fun.


LJC

-- 
Lady Johanna Constantine* Tales and dreams are the shadow-truths that will
tara@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu   * endure when mere facts are dust, and ashes, and
Disclaimer - huh?       * forgot.      -Dream of the Endless (and Neil G.)
LJC of the Net.Trenchcoat.brigade (Hi Elmo ;)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: parson_r@cubldr.colorado.edu (Robert Parson)
Subject: Re: Vernor Vinge's new book...
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 00:05:22 GMT

In article <106607@netnews.upenn.edu>, 
weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener) writes:
> In article <MATT.93Jan25121231@physics2.berkeley.edu>, matt@physics2 (Matt Austern) writes:
>>We can imagine that the postings seem more sensible to the alien
>>civilizations that posted them than they do to us, and that the
>>sophomoric flavor of many of the postings is just the way that the
>>translation programs attempt to deal with what are really
>>incomprehensibly alien viewpoints.
> 
> Death to vermin.

 A Class-Two perversion has been ensconced in much of the soc.* hierarchy
 for years now. Apparently created when sophonts from the southern coast
 of the Black sea attempted to trancend..
From: phydeaux@guru.med.cornell.edu (Dave Weingart)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: The the great ongoing misogyny/misandry discussion
Date: 22 Jan 1993 15:28:58 GMT
Organization: CUMC
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: guru.med.cornell.edu


In article <1993Jan22.085815.1@woods.ulowell.edu>, steevesm@woods.ulowell.edu writes:
|> In article <"22-Jan-93..8:18:23.EST".*.Alexandra_Haropulos.ADFMcLean_CSD@Xerox.com>, Alexandra_Haropulos.ADFMcLean_CSD@XEROX.COM writes:
|> > 
|> > Folks (or Filks), we are all in this together. I like to read books where 
|> >there are males and females cooperating equally as members of the human race.
|> 
|> Actually, if you want some rather ironic humor, try reading Robert Jordan's
|> "The Wheel of Time" series.  You get comments from *both* sexes on what the
|> other sex is like in terms of major flaws, but you also see things from each
|> point of view (ie. the man being "simple" according to him, and not 
|> understanding the "complicated women", and vice versa).  On the whole, it
|> adds an amusing subplot to the whole thing.

Worst example of a War-Between-the-Sexes I can recall was a book (by an
author mercifully forgotten) called "Native Tongue," about a tribe of
professional translators on an Earth where women are legally inferior
(apparently deemed so by some bizarre scientific finding in the past,
although the woman who wrote it never bothered to explain it).

I specifically recall that the women have some secret language called
"Laadan" (which is apparantly "real," on the order of Esparanto), which
men were Never To Know About.

Withou exception, the men were worthless creatures, interested in keeping
women in their place, and the women were brilliant.  (I also wondered about
the sort of genetics that says that only a dozen families out of all of
humanity are fit to translate with alien races).

And, to top it off, there was no effective story.

-- 
73 de David Weingart  KB2CWF    In the event I am captured or killed, the
phydeaux@cumc.cornell.edu       Cornell University Medical College and the
phydeaux@guru.med.cornell.edu   Department of Academic Computing will disavow
phydeaux@src4src.linet.org      any knowledge of my opinions.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: mwhatt01@ulkyvx.louisville.edu
Subject: Re: writing Styles
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 16:03:44 GMT
Organization: University of Louisville

> |> |> I am curious as to what this groups opinions are concerning writing
> |> |> styles.  Do you like a writer who as a very clear style so that
> |> |> you don't even notice it.  Or do you prefer writing that is highly
> |> |> stylized.  
> 
> It's not style, but I rarely read a book that's written in the first
> person singular.  I'm not comfortable with them, generally, and I'm
> not sure why.  Maybe I'd rather be a spectator than a participant.
> Anyone else suffer(?) from this bias?
>
Reading first person singular doesn't bother me, and writing in it is 
much easier.