From: joeb@arden.linet.org (Joe Beiter)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Re: The Bible As A Rorschach
Date: 2 Jan 93 03:01:05 GMT
Organization: The Courts of Chaos

In article <50ZJ024430Qm01@JUTS.ccc.amdahl.com> czl30@DUTS.ccc.amdahl.com (Chris Lee) writes:
>
>Most atheists don't go around discussing the nonexistence of gods. This
>is only in response to theist claims. And then their atheism varies
>somewhere between plain disbelief and the absolute belief that gods
>don't exist. Most seem to to be closer to the former than the latter
>because nobody has yet come up with a convincing explanation of what
>"God" is.

Since the basis of atheism is apparently the assuredness that there is no
God then I'm sure there is someone here would like to disscuss it.

>
>And if a theist of any religion comes here and makes arguments that
>presuppose any god, expect to get roasted. Its our board.

Roast away.  If you condone that behaviour in the newsgroups I hope
you don't go crying about their frequency.

>Remember that atheists don't believe in "God". You do, but you shouldn't
>argue on an atheists' board in a way that presupposes "God". "How do you

Well then I don't get it!?!  If an atheist asks me how I can belive in
a God that does "x" how am I supposed to answer?  In the third person and
with lots of "if he were to exists" and "hypothetically speaking" etc...?

You have me all wrong.  Don't think of me as some christian trying to 
tell you santa claus is real.  Think of me as some poor idiot trying to
see through my self-delusion and petitioning people much more wiser than
I.  How can I even to begin to see your proposal of reality when I first
can't be shown the impossiblity of my present one?

>Because your argument presupposes "God". I don't care what you believe.
>But it is silly to make an argument that presupposes your belief as fact,
>to an atheist.

and I already know what I belive so tell me.

>Most aren't. They just don't believe in any gods. Like they don't believe
>in Santa Claus. Or unicorns. Or fairies. These are just things people
>have made up. Asking an atheist to why they are convinced there is no
>"God" is like asking why YOU are convinced that the fairies at the bottom
>of the garden don't exist.

I never understood the point of this type of reference.  What makes
you think I"m not prepared to explain why I don't belive in garden faries?


>
>In order to be convinced that "God" doesn't exist, I would have to know
>exactly what you mean by "God". And you have not come up with any kind
>of description/definition/whatever that makes any kind of sense. Until
>you do, I have no idea what you mean by "God".

True I have not.  Ok here goes: "Joe Beiter's limited personal definition
of 'God'".  God is a being that cannot be directly observed by any 
current technology, He alledgedly created all of the known universe, 
maintains an active interest on what happens on earth, even has a
role on the social/political activities on the earth yet still maintains
'invisibility' to scientifically measureable means.

unlike the unicorn, there are large numbers of similer belief of the same
or similer characteristics.

You say you are sure He does not exist.  why?



>NO DIFFERENCE. Just as you think that your god is the ultimate truth, so
>the Shiites think that their god is the ultimate truth. You can't have it
>both ways: the Shiites died for their faith; the apostles died for their
>faith. How do you know which one was the lie or compromised truth? To a
>Shiite your crowd would be the ones who died for a lie or compromised
>truth. So which one is right? They can't both be, even though both were
>convinced they were right.

No difference?  You say there is no difference between someone who has been
fooled into dieing for something false and someone who died for maintaining
something they KNOW is false?  I don't buy it.


>Remember there are lots of religions out there, claiming different gods
>or the same gods interpreted differently. And out of all these, you
>expect me to tell me I am convinced your particular one doesn't exist.

well no not you if you don't want to.  I'm sure someone else here will.

>And each of these religions has their own set of legends, stories and
>history. Just like yours. And people are convinced that each of these
>is the one and only revealed truth. Just like you and your religion.

as you are convinced they are all false.  Sombody is right and somebody
is wrong.  I would like to try and find out. 

>You talk about your "God" as if it were a fact. So do Hindus, Sikhs, Jews,
>Moslems............ But you can only back it up by quoting your holy books.
>So do Hindus, Sikhs, Jews, Moslems........

You talk as though his non-existance is fact.  So do Hindus, Sikhs, Jews
etc... The only thing I've seen as argument are examples of perceived
inconsistancies in the Bible.  That would be great but I still haven't seen
anything that is without 'personal interpretation'.
Some have some good ones.  I'm still observing.

>That is a religious pseudo-truth. And I'm not going to say that anybody
>of any religion believes a lie (the word you used) because it is emotive
>and implies deliberate falsehood. Have you noticed how angry people start
>getting once the words "lie", "liar" and "lieing" get introduced?

well the point of lieing is resting on the apostles (authors of the NT) and
the fact that if they were lieing then they died for something that they 
would have known was NOTHING. There is no motive for such behaviour.

>This presupposes your god, and I haven't seen any evidence for it. In the
>extremely unlikely case of it existing, I would agree. But then Zeus, Odin
>Osiris, and Krishna, if they exit, haven't shown themselves any better at
>communicating either.

I have but it is personal and I'm very sure you don't want to hear anything
about it. Just remember I'm not here to convince you of anything.  I'm here
to seek out atheism as a possible reality.  If I'm giving you my religious
beliefs then it is to have them 'shot full of holes' that I may prehaps see
that I've been deceived.




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