From: lang@cs.tulane.edu (Raymond Lang)
Subject: Re:      Belief
Nntp-Posting-Host-[nntpd-8336]: jupiter
Organization: Computer Science Dept., Tulane Univ., New Orleans, LA
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 18:04:46 GMT


In article <CATHOLIC%92092511122708@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU>,         Brent Winiger <ABDWINIG@IDBSU.IDBSU.EDU> writes:
> Ray Lang wrote:
> >There's a good bit in the bible that's downright _foolish_ (see 1 Cor:
> >18-31 where St. Paul discusses the Father's "foolish" love for his errant
> >children).
> 
> Ray please clarify your statement for us.  Are you saying that portions
> of Scripture are nonsense?  Or are you saying that it is foolish
> in the non-believer's eyes, and that is why logic cannot lead to faith for
> that non-believer?

The Father had numerous alternatives to effect our salvation and redemption.
Sending His Son to suffer humiliating rejection, cruel torture and death
by crucifixion was "foolish" in the sense that He could have done it some
other way.

Recall that the Father _makes_ the rules, so you can't say that there was
some ineluctable course that He was constrained to follow.  What He does,
He does by His own choice.  That he should have _chosen_ to send His Son
to suffer and die in order to reconcile us to Him is foolish by human
standards.  This, of course, is from the point of view of a believer.  From
a non-believer's point of view, it's all a fairy tale from start to finish.


> >I don't believe it's possible to arrive at faith using just the historical
> >record.  Faith, remember, is a divine gift, not something men can arrive at
> >unaided.
> 
> Hmmm.  Please allow me to tackle this from a different angle.  I agree that
> faith is a gift.  I would generally say that belief at least partly falls
> under the realm of faith.  And though our Lord may give us as individuals
> faith, he does not grant us the wisdom to correctly belief all aspects
> of our faith.  Scripture tells us we are supposed to love God with our
> minds as well as our hearts.  Now from this list we can see that many
> individuals have faith, but do not have the same beliefs.  The problem
> is that without an objective basis to anchor your faith to, you're
> likely to believe all kinds of things that are in error.  You are correct
> when you say we cannot arrive at faith un-aided.  But the value in our
> faith is not in the believing, but in who it is we are believing in.  And
> if the object of that belief is not accurate, then our belief may be
> worthless.  That is where historical evidence comes in.

It seems like you want to have it both ways: faith is a gift from God, but
it has to have some objective basis.  There are myriad alternative explanations
of the historical record that do not rely on supernatural beliefs.  I prefer
to account for differences regarding the content of faith in terms of our
limited understanding of the mysteries to which we have been given access
and in terms of the sinful condition we find ourselves in (e.g. many people
reject the Catholic Church on the basis of the notorious behavior of the
pre-reformation heirarchy).


> Certainly, but I think if that record is looked at objectively, that
> "interpretation" is not necessary.  (That should raise some hairs!)  I
> contend that (generally) the facts speak for themselves, and can provide
> a good foundation for one's faith. 

Personally, I don't think facts _ever_ speak for themselves.  There may often
be an explanation that is overwhelmingly likely, but not one that is
inescapable (certainly not in the case of the events surrounding Jesus of
Nazareth).


>                                    Again, many people have faith, but that
> is as far as they take it.  As a result in the Church we have relativists,
> secular humanists, etc.  Its not good for the Church or the individuals.

I'm not sure what it means to say people have faith, but that's "as far as
they take it."  Do you mean to describe those who say it's okay to believe
in anything you please?  If so, then I make a distinction between those who
have constructed a set a beliefs that makes them comfortable and provides
some explanation for the riddle of existence from those who have truly
received the gift of Christian faith.  You have to be careful to pinpoint
what people are taking about when they say, "I have faith in God."  Many
times, all they're saying is, "I believe that there is in intelligent creative
force driving the universe."  Such a belief _can_ be arrived at by reason
alone unaided by revelation; but that's not the same as faith, which for me
carries, among other things, a connotation of trust in that "intelligent
creative force."

Ray Lang
lang@cs.tulane.edu
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