HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: Mike.Hoffmann@sniap.mchp.sni.de (Mike Hoffmann)
Subject: Re: Dieppe
Organization: Siemens-Nixdorf AG, AP 712
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 92 10:37:28 GMT

In article <4022@moscom.UUCP> de@moscom.UUCP (David Esan) writes:
>In article <1992Aug25.151652.2541@sniap.mchp.sni.de> Mike.Hoffmann@sniap.mchp.sni.de (Mike Hoffmann) writes:

>>So all the troops disembarked basically to allow one man - a Jew!

>I assume that your mention of the expert's ethnic group has to do with the
>irony of the situation rather than any bigotry?

Oops! Was that misunderstandable? Sorry.

Yes, I meant the irony, also the extreme danger. Whereas any other soldier
faced captivity and a chance to survive, for this man a horrible fate waited.

Hope that clear things up!
Mike
-- 
Mike Hoffmann, Siemens-Nixdorf AG, SNI AP 712  
INTERNET: Mike.Hoffmann@sniap.mchp.sni.de
"Bosnia has no oil [as opposed to Kuwait]." (unknown citizen of Sarajevo)
Newsgroups: soc.history
From: sechrest@z.eecs.umich.edu (Stuart Sechrest)
Subject: Re: Turkmenistan <==> Turkey relationship?
Organization: University of Michigan EECS Dept., Ann Arbor
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 15:18:13 GMT

In article <1992Aug26.132150.15263@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk> jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin) writes:
>Placenames all across the Soviet Union as far as the eastern end of the
>Arctic Ocean are intelligible if you know Istanbul Turkish. . . .

I thought the Arctic Ocean only had a southern end. :-)

--Stuart Sechrest
From: steinly@topaz.ucsc.edu (Steinn Sigurdsson)
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Re: Ghost Dance and precedents
Date: 3 Sep 92 23:06:13 GMT
	<1992Sep3.203732.26026@cbfsb.cb.att.com>
Organization: Lick Observatory/UCO
NNTP-Posting-Host: topaz.ucsc.edu
In-reply-to: kja@cbnewsf.cb.att.com's message of 3 Sep 92 20:37:32 GMT

In article <1992Sep3.203732.26026@cbfsb.cb.att.com> kja@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (krista.j.anderson) writes:


   In article <11979@optilink.UUCP>, cramer@optilink.UUCP (Clayton Cramer) writes:
   > In article <1992Aug27.203424.5305@cbfsb.cb.att.com>, kja@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (krista.j.anderson) writes:
   > > There were several reasons for
   > > the downfall of the Native Americans:  diseases, smaller numbers,
   > > technology always one step behind and the ruthlessness of their
   > > enemies.

   > Perhaps the biggest problem was an inability to form effective
   > alliances against the whites.  At least before 1700, it would have
   > been a trivial matter to have driven the whites from North
   > America.

   This is my third attempt to respond to this.  I think what's
   bothering me is that there are alliances and then there are massive
   alliances.  I would say that the Indians formed some effective
   alliances that were temporary and regional.

   It's true that the alliances were not as massive as they could have
   been. 

 ...

Two questions: did any of the Amerinds in the east at the time
generate the surplus necessary to sustain a large fighting force?
And did they have the logistical capability of maintaining any sizable
force in the field for any length of time? Forming an alliance is
useless if the manpower and materials cannot be provided and
transported for a sustained period.

*  Steinn Sigurdsson   			Lick Observatory      	*
* steinly@helios.ucsc.edu		"standard disclaimer"  	*
*  Why must you record my phonecalls?     			*
*  Are you planning a bootleg LP? ...				*
*  I dread to think what the future will be			*
*  When we're living in gangster time        Specials, 1979	* 
Newsgroups: soc.history,soc.culture.japan
From: smittie@beach.csulb.edu (Smittie)
Subject: Re: The Russo-Japanese War (part 2)
Organization: Cal State Long Beach
	<11978@optilink.UUCP> <1992Aug31.165829.3299@island.COM>
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 19:04:56 GMT

>...my point was that the Japanese invasions were far more likely to have been
>independant of racial motives; those came as after-the-fact rationalizations.
>Japan simply wanted to 'play with the big boys', and that was the big boys'
>game, as the Japanese saw it.

Uhm, I am going to agree with Mike here. That's kinda scary. :{)

Mike is right, imo. Racism was used by Japan to rationalized acts completed but
had little to do with motivations for invasion or actions during the fighting.
Japan was a Johnny-Joined-Lately in the imperialism game. Japan, realized
cognitizely or otherwise that the best way to keep the Western powers from
craving Japan up like they were the rest of Asia was to learn to play the same
game by the same rules. That's exactly what they did.

smittie



--
___________________________________________________________________________
GEnie, MCI, AOL:Smittie | If all of us were as smart as we think we are the
smittie@beach.csulb.edu |  current world problems would be yesterday's news.
________________________|___________________________________________________
From: joe@astro.as.utexas.edu (Joe Wang)
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Re: Chinese Meet Romans?
Date: 26 Aug 92 08:13:00 GMT
Distribution: world,local
Organization: McDonald Observatory, University of Texas @ Austin

In article <1992Aug24.161013.1@milori.ccit.arizona.edu> bob@sclera.physics.arizona.edu writes:
>Diverging ever so slightly from Rome vs. China:
>
>How about the Arabs vs. China.  An Islamic army met a Chinese
>force in the area of what is now Kirghizia, west of Xinchiang 
>province, around 724 AD or so.  I believe the Chinese lost, but
>I don't know much otherwise.

I think you are talking about the Battle of Talas River.  It is
historically significant in much the some way the Battle of Teutonberg
Forest was.  It was even more signficant because the An Lu Shan
rebellion in 755, cause the Tang to remove all their garrisons from what
is now Xinjiang.

Talas River marked the outer limit of the Chinese cultural sphere.
Had the Tang armies won Talas River, Central Asia would today have a
culture largely based on Chinese culture rather than on Islam.  




Newsgroups: soc.history
From: rchao@well.sf.ca.us (Robert Chao)
Subject: divide this newsgroup
Organization: Whole Earth 'Lectronic Link
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 16:49:25 GMT


Do you think this group could be subdivided into smaller ones,
for example, soc.history,usa? That way, some of these smaller
groups would not have all that Turkish stuff on it.
-- 
Robert Chao
Oakland, California
Xref: sparky soc.history:7947 soc.culture.japan:7560
From: blamb@rodan.hri.com (Bill Lambert)
Newsgroups: soc.history,soc.culture.japan
Subject: Re: Japanese POWs in the USSR during WW2
Date: 1 Sep 92 19:18:46 GMT
Reply-To: blamb@rodan.hri.com (Bill Lambert)
Followup-To: soc.history
Organization: Horizon Research


 
=> >msirbu@next6.cs.umr.edu (Mihai Sirbu) quoted this in soc.culture.romanian:
=> >> RFE/RL Daily Report No. 166, August 31, 1992
=> >> The Japanese Kyodo News Service on 29 August said that Russian
=> >> President Boris Yeltsin may formally apologize for the Soviet
=> >> seizure of 600,000 Japanese World War II prisoners of war when he
=> >> visits Japan in mid-September.

=> jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin) writes:
=> >So what's to apologize for?  Presumably these were the troops captured in
=> >Manchuria after eight years of conducting the worst genocide in history?

In article <1992Sep1.143253.25015@acuson.com>, 
miklg@acuson.com (Michael Goldman ) writes:
=> 	Possibly the reference would be to keeping the prisoners for
=> 	a long time (I think it was 10 years) after the war was over.
=> 	(This is NOT a defense of Japanese actions in Manchuria, please
=> 	note.)

A friend's father was one such prisoner of the USSR. He was sent to
Manchuria only a few weeks before the war ended, and was imprisoned
for 12 years, according to his son. He previously was a member of the
"Ballon Bomb" project, as I mentioned here some time ago. This man
is now 82 years old and lives near Nagoya with his daughter and
family.

(Also not a defense of Japanese activies in Manchuria, please note.)

- Bill Lambert
Newsgroups: soc.history,soc.culture.japan
From: yeonwook@hardy.u.washington.edu (James Smith)
Subject: Re: The Russo-Japanese War (part 2)
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1992 06:08:58 GMT

In article <11978@optilink.UUCP> cramer@optilink.UUCP (Clayton Cramer) writes:
>In article <1992Aug26.185015.6334@u.washington.edu>, yeonwook@hardy.u.washington.edu (Mark Choi) writes:
>> In article <11891@optilink.UUCP> cramer@optilink.UUCP (Clayton Cramer) writes:
>> >In article <1992Aug21.180605.6076@island.COM>, fester@island.COM (Mike Fester) writes:
># ## Why? It's difficult to see the Pacific War as a "race war". After all, the
># ## Japanese attacked, subjugated, and attempted to eradicate the culture of
># ## Korea, and last I checked, they are of the same race (in fact, the Japanese
># ## Royal family is most likely descended from Korean nobility). They then
># #
># #Hmmm.  From what I've read, the Koreans were always regarded as a
># #lower class of human by the Japanese.
># 
># What is your point? Does a people's opinion always reveal the truth?
>
>No, of course not.  My point was that the Japanese regarded their
>invasion as justified by the belief that the Koreans were subhuman.
>What I don't understand is why this requires explication.  You make
>it sound as though this ideology of racial superiority still had
>any significant number of adherents.

No. I went on to explain after my first sentence that the Japanese historically
have regarded Koreans highly, and that the noble people in Japan (including
the emperor) are historically from Korean noble people, like the original 
poster said. I also went on to say that Japanese people and nobles forgot about
their Korean ancestry, and therefore, became "Japanese".... I was just saying
that it is not correct to say "Koreans were always regarded as a lower class
of human", like you said, because historically, it is the other way around.

># ## Mike
># #Clayton E. Cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer  My opinions, all mine!
># #Alcohol prohibition didn't work; drug prohibition doesn't work; gun
># #prohibition won't work.
>#   --|--|      | Mark Yeon Wook Choi             |
>-- 
>Clayton E. Cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer  My opinions, all mine!
>Alcohol prohibition didn't work; drug prohibition doesn't work; gun
>prohibition won't work.


-- 
    .  .      +---------------------------------+
  --|--|      | Mark Yeon Wook Choi             |
   /.\ |      | yeonwook@hardy.u.washington.edu |
  --|--|      +---------------------------------+  
Newsgroups: soc.history,soc.culture.japan
From: jmc@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (John McCarthy)
Subject: Re: The Russo-Japanese War (part 2)
Reply-To: jmc@cs.Stanford.EDU
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University
	<11978@optilink.UUCP> <1992Aug31.165829.3299@island.COM>
	<SMITTIE.92Aug31120453@wren.csulb.edu>
Date: 1 Sep 92 22:01:47

My conjecture is that adopting a colonialist policy is one more case of
Japanese imitation of the West.  As a new colonial power, they may
have been especially imitating Germany.  The racist rationalizations
were an adaptation to their own circumstances of Western racist
rationalizations.

Consider that Japan had isolated itself for 250 years, and during
that period had too little contact with foreigners of any kind
for significant racism to survive in any layer of the population.
--
John McCarthy, Computer Science Department, Stanford, CA 94305
*
He who refuses to do arithmetic is doomed to talk nonsense.
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Re: Chinese Meet Romans?
From: briand@anasaz (Brian Douglass)
Date: 27 Aug 92 04:18:52 GMT
Organization: Anasazi, Inc.  Phoenix, Az

In article <78362@ut-emx.uucp>, joe@astro.as.utexas.edu (Joe Wang) writes:
> In article <1992Aug23.033332.15170@anasaz> briand@anasaz (Brian Douglass) writes:
>>Yes, but how would the Chinese have responded to an invading power that was
>>not racially asian?  The Chinese fighting amongst themselves for power is
>>one thing, but against invading Europeans et al?  The most a Caesar could
>>have hoped was a luke warm alliance.  Vassalage would have been out of the
>>question.
> 
> I suspect that you are trying to fit 20th century ideas on the 2nd and
> 3rd century.  

Hardly.

> I don't think that 2nd Century Chinese would have much
> cared that the Romans didn't look much like them.  After all, to a 2nd
> century Chinese there wouldn't have been too much difference between a
> Roman and member of the Toba tribe.  They're all barbarians anyway.
> :-) :-) :-) :-)

Exactly the point.  The Emperor as well as the Chinese within the Empire
could not accept being the servants of a barbarian.  Emperors were considered 
divine, and China the center of the universe.  Could an Emperor of such
heavenly stature accept vassalage to a mortal barbarian?  Would pretenders
to the throne accept such an alliance? I think not.

-- 
"... For I have sworn upon the alter of god, eternal hostility against
every form of tyranny over the mind of man."  Thomas Jefferson
Brian Douglass		briand@anasazi.com 	602-870-3330 X657
From: fsars@acad3.alaska.edu (Allen R Sparks)
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Re: divide this newsgroup
Date: 28 Aug 92 21:54:34 GMT
Organization: University of Alaska Fairbanks

In article <visser.715032436@convex.convex.com>, visser@convex.com (Lance Visser) writes:
> 	If anyone seriously wants to cause Multu some trouble, send letters
> to the turkish embassy saying that he an embarissment to turks, hurting
> the image of turks/turkey on a very large electronic network and causing 
> people to think that any "history" other than the armenian history of their
> common conflict is "crazy".  Be sure to mention Amhet Cosar as being involved
> as well in producing the material.

Why is that going to do any good?  Are they going to assassinate him? === Al
Newsgroups: soc.history
From: olaf@kean.ucs.mun.ca
Subject: Re: Juan de la Cosa, Cabot?
Organization: Memorial University. St.John's Nfld, Canada
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 19:19:19 GMT

In article <1992Aug26.030858.27383@r-node.gts.org>, Marc.Cormier%nautical@r-node.gts.org (Marc Cormier) writes:
> 
>     Does anybody still study the Juan de la Cosa map of 1500 and the ancient
> debate on Giovanni Caoboto's landfall. I would like to know what the latest
> opinion is on the represented coast of Juan de La Cosa between y verde and
> mer descubierto por inglese. Is this still accepted as being a primitive
> representation of Newfoundland, Cape Breton? And what is the general
> assumption concerning the illa de la trenidat. Do most historians regard
> this a being the St Pierre et Miquelon islands? 
> 
>     I would also like to know if any new maps have surfaced in the last two
> decades during this crucial period (1497-1520)? I have cataloged about 170
> maps (out of about 400 hundred) that refer to the islands of St Pierre and
> Miquelon, also know on the maps as Terra England, Onze Myll Virgines, XI
> Vogines, Barbatos In, Ille Verde, usually placed between Cape Race and Cape
> Breton. (Capo rasso, raxo, ratz... and cape Briton, terra de los Bretomes
> etc...) The maps I cataloged are over the period of 1500-1800. But I am
> especially interested in the 1497-1520 period.
> 
> --
> Marc Cormier, user of the UnixBBS System @ r-node.gts.org
> E-Mail: Marc.Cormier%nautical@r-node.gts.org
> 
> R-node Public Access Unix/BBS - Free Access to the World thru Usenet
>                  Data: 1-416-249-5366 (3 Lines)
>      Shell Accounts Available - Contact marc@r-node.gts.org

Marc:

I saw your query concerning the Juan de la Cosa map on the
soc.history network. I can't answer your questions directly, but
with your permission, I'd like to run your query in a newsletter
that I edit. ARGONAUTA is the quarterly newsletter of the
Canadian Nautical Research Society, and organization devoted to
maritime studies with a Canadian and international (USA, UK,
Germany, Denmark, France, South Africa, Australia) membership of
close to 300 people, many with academic or institutional
affiliations that may produce an answer. However, I'll need your
snail-mail address in case one of our members wishes to respond
to you; few of them have computers hooked into an electronic news
network. The next issue will come out (fingers crossed!) in
October or, more realistically, early November.

            Olaf Janzen
            Department of History
            Sir Wilfred Grenfell College
            Corner Brook, Newfoundland
            A2H 6P9
            tel. 709-637-6282 or fax 709-639-8125


Newsgroups: soc.history,soc.culture.japan
From: jewell@mace.cc.purdue.edu (Larry Jewell)
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Re: 50 Years Ago: Thursday, 27 August, 1942
Date: 31 Aug 92 21:56:10 GMT
Organization: Purdue University

In article <24339@oasys.dt.navy.mil| swilliam@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Steve Williams) writes:
|In sci.military, military@att.att.com (Bill Thacker) writes:
| |
| |The battleship USS Iowa, first of a new class, is launched.
| |
| |"[Assistant Secretary of the Navy Ralph A Bard] said he would guarantee
| |that she would prove superior to anything that either the Japanese or the
| |Germans could build, with all their stealth." - The New York Times, on the
| |battleship USS Iowa
|
|Was Bard implying that USS Iowa was superior to Japan's Yamato?  Yamato
|was with Japan's main force in the Battle of Midway, June 1942.  Or was
|Bard unware of the Yamato's existence or strength?

   Here's a clue to this:

   "U.S. intelligence was certainly aware of the Yamato and Musashi, (by name)
as late as 1942.  ONI 222 of December 1942 listed them with approximately
the correct length but with far too little beam (only 110 rather than the
correct 127 feet) and as displacing 40,000 to 57,000 tons (rather than the
correct figure of 64,000).  Armament was given officially as nine 16-inch
guns as late as July 1945 (ONI 22-J)."
   Norman Friedman, "U.S. Battleships: An Illustrated Design History",
   United States Naval Institute Press, 1985, pp 308

   Thus Bard seems to be going on the best intelligence available.

|---------------------------------------------------------------------
| Steve Williams                           swilliam@oasys.dt.navy.mil
|---------------------------------------------------------------------

Larry J

-- 
#Larry W. Jewell (ex-USN)     WWII-L Listowner    jewell@mace.cc.purdue.edu # 
#"Sunday's horoscope is noteworthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly#
#unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life." #
#--"Your Horoscope," L.A. Evening Herald Express, Saturday, Dec. 6, 1941.   #
Newsgroups: soc.history
From: mem@mv.mv.com (Mark E. Mallett)
Subject: Re: The Russo-Japanese War (part 2)
Organization: MV Communications, Inc.
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1992 07:55:22 GMT

In article <BtM2qw.HxH@NCoast.ORG> cmort@ncoast.org (Christopher Morton) writes:
>Try Ienaga Saburo's "The Pacific War".  It's includes and excellent treatment
>of pre-war Japanese attitudes toward other Asians.

Seconded.  I read this a few years ago; it is not limited to the
"treatment of pre-war Japanese attitudes toward other Asians" but to
the attitudes towards the rest of  the world, both before and after
the war.

-mm-

-- 
Mark E. Mallett  MV Communications, Inc./ PO Box 4963/ Manchester NH/ 03108
Bus. Phone: 603 429 2223    Home: 603 424 8129     BIX: mmallett
Internet: mem@mv.MV.COM  ( uucp: ...{decvax|harvard}!mv!mem )
Looking for news and mail in southern NH / northern MA?  Try MV!
Newsgroups: soc.history
From: rath@binah.cc.brandeis.edu
Subject: Re: What to read?
Reply-To: rath@binah.cc.brandeis.edu
Organization: Brandeis University
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 13:40:42 GMT

In article <178sn0INN8tp@agate.berkeley.edu>, sachs@tanner.berkeley.edu (Rainer Sachs) writes:
>In article <weZvc4G00WB7Q2WaAm@andrew.cmu.edu> je10+@andrew.cmu.edu (James Brian Endres) writes:
>
>>I'm interested in going back and reading a pretty comprehensive
>>overview of human history. I've got and a library copy of Wells'...
>
>>Can anyone recommend anything of that scope that is more recent ...

Fernand Braudel's _Civilization and Capitalism_ from the 15th -18th c's_
3 vols.  is an attempt at a world-sized social history which has 
held up well.--Rich

>
>The Columbia History of the World
>Garraty and somebody editors
>is only one (long) volume
>Fairly recent -- 1970's; rather bland but it has its moments
>more or less coherently arranged.
>Does cover India, China, Japan, ..., though not as intensively
>as Europe.
>I like it for mealtime reading -- a century of endeavor for 500
>million people is about all I can take at once anyway.
>
>>Thanks,
>>Jimmer.
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Re: divide this newsgroup
From: kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay)
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 92 18:50:40 GMT
Organization: The Old Frog's Almanac, Vancouver Island, CANADA

In article <BtpDED.5tx@well.sf.ca.us> rchao@well.sf.ca.us (Robert Chao) writes:

>Do you think this group could be subdivided into smaller ones,
>for example, soc.history,usa? That way, some of these smaller
>groups would not have all that Turkish stuff on it.

The flaw in this logic is that the disgusting mutlu would simply add the new
groups to his distribution list and fuck _it_ up, too. The _only_ way to
deal with mutlu is to include him in your KILL files for all the groups you
read - then the only reminder you have is your daily wait while rn kills 90%
of the soc.history articles, thus removing the mu from this group.

Ask yourself, for example, why "Turkish stuff" ends up in news.answers,
which is clearly inappropriate for his demented ravings.

-- 
"We guarantee the effectiveness of the crematoria ovens as well as their
durability, the use of the best materials and of course, our faultless
workmanship." From the bargain-basement bid for the crematoria at Treblinka,
submitted by the enterprising director of the C. N. Kori Company. [Sachar]
From: phs172m@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au (Stephen Harker)
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Re: Chinese Meet Romans?
Date: 27 Aug 92 10:02:32 +1000
Organization: Physics Department, Monash University, Australia

In article <78362@ut-emx.uucp>, joe@astro.as.utexas.edu (Joe Wang) writes:
> In article <1992Aug23.033332.15170@anasaz> briand@anasaz (Brian Douglass) writes:
>>Yes, but how would the Chinese have responded to an invading power that was
>>not racially asian?  The Chinese fighting amongst themselves for power is
>>one thing, but against invading Europeans et al?  The most a Caesar could
>>have hoped was a luke warm alliance.  Vassalage would have been out of the
>>question.
> 
> I suspect that you are trying to fit 20th century ideas on the 2nd and
> 3rd century.  I don't think that 2nd Century Chinese would have much
> cared that the Romans didn't look much like them.  After all, to a 2nd
> century Chinese there wouldn't have been too much difference between a
> Roman and member of the Toba tribe.  They're all barbarians anyway.
> :-) :-) :-) :-)

	So are the Chinese, unless they had taken to speaking Greek :-)
(Which at least some Romans could do).

-- 
Stephen Harker			phs172m@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au
Monash University		Baloney baffles brains: Eric Frank Russell
Newsgroups: soc.history