Newsgroups: bit.listserv.seasia-l
Date:         Tue, 6 Oct 1992 17:01:34 -0500
From:         Max Becherer <becherer@SUNA0.CS.UIUC.EDU>
Subject:      Ardi's Friends

     So, Ardi is posting letters of support from friends of his.  Let's see
what they have to say...


>Date: 4 Oct 92 22:34:00 CST
>From: <RM@msuvx.edu>
>Subject: It's easy for outsiders to criticize
>To: "arusydi" <arusydi@SUVM.SYR.EDU>
>
>        I just wanted you to know that I agree with you. It is very easy for
>some folks to look in at a problem from the outside and make a snap
>judgement about how it should be. I suspect that  is what motivated the
>remarks which you replied so ably to.
>
>        I will confess that I don't know a lot of the history behind the
>ET problem. The so-called news which has been posted on the list, tho, smacks
>of propaganda rather than news.

     Saying that something "smacks of propaganda" is a good way to discredit
it without having to address the issues (why don't you run for President ?
you seem to have at least one of the prerequisites.)  It is another smoke
screen to avoid having to defend your veiws.


>                          My contacts with Indonesians has lead me to
>believe that they are a decent, honorable people who are unlikely to
>engage in the sorts of actions which some would like use to believe.

     No one is saying that the Indonesian people are evil.  It is the
government, not its people, which bears the onus of blame for the crimes in
ET. Perhaps this example will help:  Are the German and Japanese people all
bloodthirsty monsters ?  Of course not, but both Germany and Japan committed
some of the most monstrous crimes against other peoples in modern times.  Few
knew at the time the magnitude of the atrocities being committed in their
names.  We blame the governments, not the people.
     I'm sure that the vast majority of Indonesian people are good at heart,
many who support the government don't realize, or don't want to believe, what
is happening to East Timor.


>
>        I am sorry that one of my countrymen has been so boorish as to
>start tryingto tell everyone how their countries should be run. I fear that
>it is a national failing of ours - trying to impose our views on everyone
>else at the same time that we seem unable to solve our own problems. I
>trust that your contacts with other Americans has shown you that we aren't all
>so pigheaded.

	 Tell me, does that mean we shouldn't criticize Apartheid ?  After
all, that would be boorish and pigheaded of us, wouldn't it ?  What's good
for the goose is good for the gander.  How many regimes try to shield their
human rights records under the aegis of "internal affairs" or some other
euphemism ?  Human rights is NOT an internal affair, and it IS our business
when an oppressive regime brutalizes innocent people.  It is EVERYONE'S
business.


>
>        Regards,
>        erman
>        rm@msuvx.edu
>
>-eof
>
>Message-Id:   <m0mbumx-00010zC@ts.com>
>Date:         Mon, 5 Oct 1992 05:38:53 HST
>>From: <humu!ts!@SC.MIL>
>TO:   ARUSYDI@SUVMNET(
>
>The posting on SEASIA-L have upset me for a long time.
>The problem is that the list is filled with so-called Timor Timur activists.
>They post many things concerning Timor Timur and are very negative.  They do
    If you know of anything positive about East Timor, let's hear it!


>not understand all of the political implications concerning Timor Timur.

    If you are such an expert (more knowlegable, in fact, that are East
Timorese), why don't you explain these "implications"?


>I doubt if many of them have ever been to Indonesia or even really understand
>the people and the culture.  They would rather work as foreigners imposing

      One must learn to separete the people and culture from the policies of
the government.  And by the way, East Timorese are NOT Indonesians.


>their will on Indonesia by lobbying the U.S. congress.  Several Indonesians

      Would it be "imposing our will" on China to pressure it to get out of
Tibet ?

>and myself attempted last year to discuss the Timor Timur situation last year
>but were instead threatend and insulted by the Timor Timur activists.  It is
>impossible to carry on a ligitimate conversation with these hot-headed
>activists.  It is sad that when an Indonesian posts his views to this list he
>has to be degraded and insulted.  That is my views concerning SEASIA-L.  The
>only reason I do not resign my membership is because I do not care to have
>ETAN (East Timor Alert Network) activities go unnoticed.
>
>Johny Malinowski
>
     OK, so you criticize some people for being hot-headed.  I'm new on the
Net, so I cannot comment on their behavior, I would, however, like to know
how you justify the Indonesian Government's claim to East Timor.


     Ardi,

     At best, the second letter may be a valid accusation of overzealousness
on the part of ETAN, or some of its members.  Being new to the Net, I can
pass no judgement on this accusation.
     However, these letters, for all their bluster, do nothing to convince
me, or anyone else with a brain, to support the Indonesian government in
East Timor (a tall order indeed!)
     Once again, you avoid the topic.  Since you support the Indonesian
govenment, please DEFEND IT!  Explain why you think East Timorese should
submit to Indonesia's yoke.  I would be interested in knowing how you can
explain away the brutality in East Timor.




Refer comments, suggestions, flames to

                 Max Becherer    becherer@cs.uiuc.edu

       Nothing Evil lasts forever -- the Future belongs to the Free.
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU