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Date:         Thu, 7 Jan 1993 17:42:56 -0600
From:         Tim Rolfe <rolfe@DSUVAX.DSU.EDU>
Subject:      Re: A Hindu View of Amy Grant

In <reference supressed> someone writes:

>Although Amy Grant thinks and sells herself as being Christian, we know
>according to her fruit, (music, statements made, lifestyle, etc), that she is
>not like Jesus, and that is the test.

It sounds as though the author also isn't --- he seems to be in the
long tradition of those using Christianity as a way to exclude and
reject others rather than, like Jesus, associating with public sinners
and social outcasts as well as the self-righteous.
--
                                              --- Tim Rolfe
                                           rolfe@dsuvax.dsu.edu
                                            ROLFE@SDNET.BITNET
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Date:         Wed, 6 Jan 1993 08:41:41 -0600
From:         jim coen <coen@ACC.WUACC.EDU>
Subject: Re: prayer request

God Bless you Mark (and Robert) Jones. I am praying for you.

coen@acc.wuacc.edu
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Date:         Thu, 7 Jan 1993 15:52:55 EST
From:         "Ann M. Hathcock" <ALI00AMH@UNCCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      CARMAN

Has any one on the list seen Carman's video "Addicted to Jesus".  I would
recommend it to any seeking a terrific collection of live concert and concept
videos.  Carman has Petra and DC Talk as featured guest on two of the concept
videos.  There are 4 concept videos and they are fine quality.  Carman always
does a great job and they always appeal to teens.  He has so much excitement
when he shares the gospel of Jesus Christ.  If you ever get a chance to go to
a concert, I will recommend it highly.  The concerts are always free because
he wants everyone to be able to hear the gospel.  Carman messages are always
clear and concise.  He was recently asked to be on the Regis and Kathy Lee
program.  He told them that he would sing "Radically Saved".  The producers
did not think that to be a good "watered down" gospel song so he was not
allowed to come and sing.  His motto for cross-over artist is "if you cross-
over you take the cross with you".  As he says in his concerts I'm not ashamed
of the gospel of Jesus Christ cause its the power of salvation.  That's the
way he leads others to Christ and I say AMEN!

Ann Hathcock
UNCC
ALI00AMH@UNCCVM.Bitnet or ALI00AMH@UNCCVM.UNCC.EDU
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Date:         Mon, 11 Jan 1993 21:35:55 -0600
From:         Tom Shelton 314 694-3831 <tjshel@MAPLE.MONSANTO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Living Epistles Tees...

Russ,

    Another one you might think about is one I got from my wife and kids on my
last birthday (July).  I will try to describe it, but I'm afraid you will have
to see it to appreciate it.

It is designed to look very similar to a Harley Davidson tee.  The "Harley
logo" has

      JESUS
HEAVENLY DEVINE SON
      CHRIST


Front of shirt
                        BORN TO DIE

        portrait of Christ with the crown of thorns      Small logo
        and the three crosses over His left shoulder.

                        THAT YOU MAY LIVE

Back
                          WORSHIP THE BEST

                             large logo

                        OR DIE LIKE THE REST


It is very eye catching.  I really enjoyed waering it to Six-Flags over
mid-america evey time we went.  They had several christian artists this year.
Every time we went I say some people reading the shirt, but my wife said the
most telling thing was that everyone she saw that read the front tried to make
sure they read the back.  I had fun and I hope that possibly I made an impact
with someone.

Tom Shelton
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Date:         Mon, 4 Jan 1993 13:13:22 EST
From:         "jones, mark" <JMJONES@UGA.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Late Great Planet Earth - Video

Dear Yvette,
I remember the movie "Late Great Plante Earth" by Hal Lindsey but I havent
seen it in a while read the book which was fantastic. Whether or not you
agree with Lindsey (as I do) it must be noted that his is a serious
and scholarly approach to some of the most pressing end-time questions
and issues. It is also very readable. I noticed over Christmas that one
of the big publishing houses (maybe Zondervan or Word, et.al.) have published
a reasonably priced three in one collection of Lindsey's work. I saw Hal a
few weeks ago on TBN and he is still doing his great work!.
Re: The Burning Hell: I remember seeing the picture and its sequel (title?)
as a child. It was very dramatic and as I remember it was a powerful
evangelism tool. The only thing I can tell you is I remember it was produced
by Ron Ormond I believe whose company was aptly called Ormond Films. Im casting
way back to about 1975 or so, so forgive my detail. Hope you find them both..
Mark
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Date:         Tue, 5 Jan 1993 12:44:00 EST
From:         "Carl A. Lahetta" <U952020@RUTADMIN.BITNET>
Subject:      Dona Nobis Pacem

Hello,
   Back from break!  Refereshed and invigorated!  Now I can tackle all that
mail I get the first week back.  Hope everyone had a happy holiday and
merry christmas.

Carl---+
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Date:         Sat, 9 Jan 1993 01:20:32 -0500
From:         kilroy@GBORO.ROWAN.EDU
Subject:      Public Criticism of others

We've had a bunch of public rebukes which said "You should not post
public rebukes!" -- I suspect most of us can see how silly that is.

But I just realised something else, in looking at the posts.  What got
it going was someone's criticism of Amy Grant; that's not at all new,
she gets blasted from time to time on this list.  And others, such as
political candidates, broadcasters, and similar people often get called
"lukewarm" or have their Christianity doubted.

What I noticed was that these posts are even worse than public rebukes of
listmembers -- because the person being attacked does not read Christia.
It's not that we are criticising Amy Grant in public, instead of taking
her aside:  we are talking about her behind her back.

This is not academic or artistic critique, both of which I believe are
entirely appropriate for this forum.  This is direct judging of her walk
with God, based on nothing but our own speculations.  Do any of us know her
personally?  Have we talked with her or asked her why she did those things
that we find hard to understand?  So far as I can make out, the recent
articles calling Amy Grant `lukewarm' are nothing but idle gossip.


Suppose you missed Sunday School one week, and found upon your return that
the entire lesson had been devoted to criticising your `lukewarm' adherence
to Jesus' instructions.  How would you feel about that?

Suppose one of your choir members sang secular songs with a local orchestra,
and people in your Sunday School class were talking about how bad it was for
her to do so.  That is, they are not talking to her in public (as opposed to
private) about her actions, but instead they are gossiping about her when she
was not in the room.


Like it or not, every post to Christia about a non-listmember which talks
about how we judge that non-member's walk with the Lord is a kind of gossip.
It's computerised gossip, and it's been sterilised through the electronic
medium which we use -- but it is gossip.

I do not say this as a rebuke, because I have participated in these
discussions myself.  I'm only now realising that gossip is not proper just
because the victim is a famous celebrity.


Darren F Provine / kilroy@gboro.rowan.edu
"He who listens to backbiting is a backbiter himself."
                         -- Ali ibn-abu-Talib, cit. from Ali the Caliph
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Date:         Mon, 11 Jan 1993 10:32:36 -0400
From:         "HEATHER \"Apple\" MORRISON" <9124303@SSCVAX.CIS.MCMASTER.CA>
Subject:      Re: John 3:16 music

Hello!!
        I am new to this list.  I somehow accidentally erased the introduction
email to this mailing list, and therefore lost lots of valuable information
such as how to send mail to the list and the library, etc.  I would very much
like to have this information back.  Could you please forward me another
copy of that email??  Thank you!  In Christ, Heather
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Date:         Tue, 12 Jan 1993 10:13:37 -0500
From:         "jones, mark" <JMJONES@UGA.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Living Epistles Tees...

Dear All:
On the subject of the Living Epistles Tees...I dont have any but I
think they are great. I have been trying to witness to a certain co-worker
for about 7 years. He is really cynical and hard-hearted, and usually very
outspokenly against anything overtly Christian. He's from the "treat everybody
right, God is really kinda like nature" camp. Anyway...
He and I worked together some on the road last spring. When he got in my car
he saw my New Testament on cassette tapes and said "Wow". I was just waiting
for his eyes to roll and some agnostic ramblings. He said "This is really cool,
I would love to have something like this". I said "Well, let me play some of
it for you..." All the while I was praying in the Spirit under my breath!
I felt impressed to go to John 1. We listened to the whole chapter on our
way to lunch. I tried to get him to take them home with him, but he didnt
want to. Later that week, while we were together, we saw a guy with the
"Lord's Gym-His Pain Your Gain" Shirt. He said "Look at that shirt!"
I said "Yes?" expecting him to rip it apart. He said "I like that, that's
neat that He is bold enough to wear that!" My, oh my. Just when you think
you have someone pegged. 8 months or so later, and he still is not a Christian
to my knowledge. But some seeds were planted that day, when some steps were
ordered by the Holy Spirit. One day in Heaven I pray that my buddy will meet
the man who wore the Living Epistles shirt! This witnessing thing is really
blessing me, lets keep it going! Praise God! I need this........Mark
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Date:         Tue, 12 Jan 1993 08:25:57 -0500
From:         "Ann M. Hathcock" <ALI00AMH@UNCCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: A Hindu View of Amy Grant

Tim,
I have one comment on citing something that Amy Grant has did that did not look
very Christian-like.  I saw her concept video of "Baby, Baby" on "Current
Affair".  I could not believe what I saw.  Their was no baby in the video even
though the song is suppose to be about her baby.  She was slinking around
in a very seductive way with a man who "Current Affair" pointed out was not
her husband.  The video could have been used to show true family values if she
would have did it differantly.  I have a real problem with this video because
it was too far out on the edge.  I do not buy Amy Grant's albums because in
my opinion her talent is no greater than most artist in Contemporary music and
I do not like having to justify if I think a person ministry is real.  It is
alot easier if the artist is not controversial.

   Ann Hathcock ALI00AMH@UNCCVM.Bitnet
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Date:         Tue, 12 Jan 1993 12:42:04 EST
From:         Lon Mendelsohn <LMENDELS@WAYNEST1.BITNET>
Subject:      Tee-shirts
              11 Jan 1993 15:28:03 CST from <russn@SSEC.WISC.EDU>

Another brand of tee-shirts that I is really good is the Belly Acres (sic)
line, produced by JPUSA.  A an example:

  Front:        He who dies with the most toys...

                <Cartoon of dead man on a pile of gadgetry>

                     Still dies.

  Back:           Text of Mt. 16:26

Shalom,

Lon Mendelsohn
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Date:         Fri, 8 Jan 1993 08:35:37 -0600
From:         jim coen <coen@ACC.WUACC.EDU>
Subject:      Re: C.S. Lewis

Regarding the discussion about abolishing the celebration of Christmas because
it may have some pagan roots---

The Bible tells us that the WHOLE WORLD lies in the power of the evil one.
Does this mean that we should all endeavor to depart from this world?

Just wondering?
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Date:         Thu, 7 Jan 1993 07:27:17 CST
From:         Carol Slingo <slingo@CASBAH.ACNS.NWU.EDU>
Subject:      Re: A Hindu View of Amy Grant--revised
              Jan 6, 93 6:59 pm

I forgot to mention, the review was written by a Hindu staff member.

C.
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Date:         Mon, 4 Jan 1993 12:42:10 CST
From:         Russ Neumeier <russn@SSEC.WISC.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Late Great Planet Earth - Video
              mark" at Jan 4, 93 1:21 pm

>
> I first saw this film when I was about 12 years old in my youth group. At
> 30, I recently showed it to the beautiful group of youth which I had the
> privilege of pastoring. It is just as powerful in 92 as it was in 72. The
> kids did get a kick out of the bell bottoms, midriffs, sideburns and love
> beads! But I think that just added to the overall effect. They were captured
> by the message. It led into a great Sunday School discussion about the
> end times and the return of Jesus Christ. I heartily recommend this film
> to both youth and adult groups. What a powerful evangelism tool!
> Has anyone else had experience with this film? It would be interesting
> to know if anyone has seen the Lord use this film as I have. Thanks and
> prayers.....Mark
> Our local Christian bookstore has well worn rental copies of "Thief" for
> a couple of bucks.
>
The youth group that I work with had a lock-in two years ago in which they
rented all four of the movies in the "Thief" series and showed them back to
back.  Some of the kids stopped watching after the first movie because of the
bell-bottoms, sideburns, etc... but those that did watch (all or most of the
films) really began to think about their future and relationship (if any) with
Christ.

Just a couple of months ago, a home Bible study that I'm in decided to watch
the Thief in the Night since it fit well into the study we were doing -- after
getting past the 70's styles, we decided to watch the rest a week later!
Although we might not agree with everything in the series, it made us stop and
think as well...


Russ Neumeier
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Date:         Thu, 7 Jan 1993 16:11:58 EST
From:         "jones, mark" <JMJONES@UGA.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: QUESTION ON PRAYER
              7 Jan 1993 14:55:42 CST from <sweberg@GARFIELD.WES.ARMY.MIL>

Scott,
Excellent research. Pretty productive lunch hour I would say!
You know, in the way of personal testimony, this line of discussion
has led me to remembering a discussion my wife and I had recently.
I make no claims of theological significance here, this is just my
story, my experience, from my heart: I am 30 years old, and I was
saved at the age of 6 (radically, you bet, by the power of the Holy Spirit-
I remember as though it were yesterday!). In looking back over my life, I
cannot think of a single time, when I truly sought the mind of God and his
will on a matter, pulling myself and my emotions out as much as possible, that
God denied my prayer! God is batting 1.0000! Not one failure, when I
truly sought his heart and his will in matters of my life. Now many times
I have been "denied" or "not answered" when I entered the "give me this I
want that bless me Lord I pray" mode. I remember as a teenager praying, "Oh
Lord, I am so in love, I must have this girl!" Like a wise father who takes
his son's car keys away, so does our Heavenly Father look out for us, His
lambs. Praise God for these "unanswered" prayers which come from our flesh!

Does this make any sense? I'm preaching myself happy just writing about my
Heavenly Father! Could this be akin to what the Word means when it says that
"all of the promises of God are yes, and amen"(reference eludes me-I'll grab
Strong's tonight) God Bless Everyone......Mark
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Date:         Tue, 5 Jan 1993 11:27:43 CST
From:         jesse carnes <NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      James Kiefer, I presume

Dear James ;

Sorry about the public post, as I did not find your E-mail address.
Hey, thanks for the music ... it was most kind of you.
Nice stuff and I really like high church music, albeit I am not part of an
ekklesia that is high church.

Appreciate your thoughtfulness and work to find all of that music.

Jesse Carnes
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Date:         Mon, 11 Jan 1993 11:08:28 EST
From:         Dan Harling <harling@ROADRUNNER.PICTEL.COM>
Subject:      Re: rock music & the unregistered union of churches, moscow

> Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1993 10:16:18 SAT
> From: zane of dhahran <FACN34B%SAUPM00.BITNET@asu.edu>
> Subject: rock music & the unregistered union of churches, moscow
> To: Multiple recipients of list CHRISTIA <CHRISTIA@asuvm.inre.asu.edu>
>
> Since we have let music enter the discussion, I thought some of you might
> find this open letter to the >Churches of America from the persecuted Church
> in Russia< interesting.  This was published in >The Plough< #31, May/June '92.
> (The Plough is published by the Hutterite Brethren).  I will only be quoting
> portions of this letter.
>
[message from Russian church leaders, denigrating "Christian" rock
 music, deleted]

Isn't this the same article that was posted to the Internet newsgroup
"rec.music.christian" several months ago?  It would be more profitable
to discuss how we can go about meeting the needs of these Christians,
rather than start a debate on the merits of this genre of music, if the
ensuing discussion on r.m.c. is any indication.
____________________________________________________________________________
Daniel A. Harling                        (harling@pictel.com)
PictureTel Corp.             Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of
Peabody, MA  01960                   PictureTel Corp. (so there!)
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Date:         Thu, 7 Jan 1993 16:31:41 -0600
Reply-To:     bradk@isdgsm.rtsg.mot.com
From:         Brad Kaiser <bradk%isdgsm@RTSG.MOT.COM>
Subject: Is Christmas Pagan? (was Re: C.S. Lewis)

Ian Wylie writes:

> But as Christians, the Bible tells us to depart from evil.  Therefore if we
> know that the origins of Christmas are pagan, surely we should abstain.

How does it follow that origins of something make it evil?

For example, today (where I am) is Thursday, January 7.  Thursday,
from the Norse pagan god of thunder, Thor, and January, from Janus,
the Roman god of (some classicist, help, please).

All of the days of the week are named after pagan gods, except for
"Sunday" and "Monday", named after the sun and the moon (which were
also, of course, worshipped by ancient pagan peoples).  At least two
of the months of the year are named for pagan gods; another two are
named for pagan Roman emperors.

Should we therefore conclude that the calendar is evil?

> I think once you know the truth it comes down to,
>
> "Shall we rather please God or man?"

Historically, the Church placed Christmas on December 25 to coincide
with the Roman Saturnalia festival as a (successful) attempt to
eclipse the pagan observance.  If new Christians were given a set of
observances to attend and customs to follow, it was thought, they
would be much less likely to participate in the pagan festival.  Some
churches today do precisely the same thing with respect to Halloween,
by sponsoring alternative Halloween observances of a Christian nature.

It is certainly true that some Christmas customs do not point toward
the Incarnation as a central mystery of the Christian faith.  Instead,
things like burning a Yule log are simply old pagan customs: not
harmful, but not useful either.  And drunkeness and gluttony are just
as sinful at Christmas as they are any other day of the year.

But activities like church attendance and (reasonable) gift-giving
(in commemoration of the gifts offered to the Christ Child by the
Magi) are not evil or pagan.

> Ian Wylie
> University of Dundee
> Scotland
> E-mail iwylie@uk.ac.dund.mcs

In Christ's Peace,

Brad Kaiser
(bradk%isdgsm@rtsg.mot.com)

          Those who trust in Him shall understand truth,
          and the faithful shall abide with Him in love;
          Because grace and mercy are with His holy ones,
          and His care is with His elect.
                    -- Wis 3:9 [NAB]
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Date:         Tue, 5 Jan 1993 05:38:33 MET
From:         Claus Tondering <ct@LOGIN.DKUUG.DK>
Subject:      Time of Jesus' death

Can anyone help me clear up this apparent inconsistency:

        And it was the third hour, when they crucified him. (Mark 15:25)

        Now it was the day of preparation of the Passover; it was about the
        sixth hour. He [Pilate] said to the Jews, "Behold your King!"
        (John 19:14)

                                        [Revised Standard Version]

According to Mark, Jesus was crucfied at the third hour (i.e. at 9 o'clock
in the morning). According to John, Jesus had not yet been crucified at
the sixth hour.

Can you help me with this?

Yours in Christ,
Claus Tondering, Denmark. E-mail: ct@login.dkuug.dk
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