Original_To:  CHRISTIA
Original_cc:  HUTTER
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Thu, 10 Sep 1992 13:53:00 N
From:         Wolfgang Hutter <HUTTER@DULRUU51.BITNET>
Subject:      Re>Absolution

In response to my last post on absolution I received various answers
that were really helpful. Some things are pretty clear now although I
don't agree with the reasoning. Some questions still remain. Tim King
has made a point already that I'd like to take up in a little different
form.

In a message of Tue, 8 Sep 1992 10:57:35 CDT
Received on Tue,  8 Sep 92 17:59 N
Brad Kaiser <bradk%isdgsm@RTSG.MOT.COM> wrote:

[Some lines deleted in which he gives three ways to receive a sacrament:
actually, by explicit desire or by implicit desire]

>To
>receive by "implicit desire" means that one interiorly *does not know*
>that he should receive the sacrament actually; however, his heart and
>will are oriented toward God, such that if he *did* know that he
>needed to receive the sacrament actually, he would do so.  That's the
>case that covers the faithful Protestant Christian.

I want to cite Leo before I answer both of them:

In a message of Tue, 8 Sep 1992 12:34:57 EDT
Received on Tue,  8 Sep 92 18:40 N
Leo W <Leo_W@QM.CIRCA.UFL.EDU> wrote:

>The RC truly believes God wants him to confess his sins
>to a priest, therefore if he is able to do so and chooses not to do so, his
>heart condemns him and forgiveness is not available.

So here is my question. How do you know that a RC 'truly believes God
wants him to confess his sins to a priest'? There are many RC's that I
know who doubt the virgin birth of Jesus, the transsubstantiation or
other doctrines of the RCC. So I would presume that there are indeed RC
Christians who don't believe it to be necessary to confess to a priest.
Or in Brad's words: which case covers the faithful RC Christian who
'interiorly *does not know*'.

But if I understood it correctly it is not even a matter of my belief
for confession to be necessary - for then indeed there would be no
difference between a Protestant who thinks so and a RC who thinks so -
but it seems to be a matter of 'inculpable ignorance'. Let me cite Steve
Creps for clarification:

In a message of Tue, 8 Sep 1992 19:21:47 GMT
Received on Wed,  9 Sep 92 03:31 N
Steve Creps <creps@SILVER.UCS.INDIANA.EDU> wrote:

[Distinction between mortal sins and venial sins deleted - btw: this
could start another discussion, but lets keep to the point :-)]

>   For non-Catholics, confession isn't required, since they aren't
>held accountable for inculpable ignorance (which, from the Catholic
>point of view, is not knowing that the Catholic Church is the true
>Church).

So indeed my view on the (R)CC is what determines the way I can (or
can't) receive forgiveness?

Leo once again (citing a RC author):

>"What about baptized Protestants who are in good faith?  Do we claim that these
>are all lost, because they do not know the efficacy of the Sacrament of Penance
>and therefore do not receive it?  No; they may turn to God in ardent and loving
>contrition, and, being in good faith, this contrition implies that they
>earnestly desire to fulfill Christ's law as far as they know it.  If they knew
>the Sacrament of Penance as it is, they would receive it.

So depending on the meaning of 'to know the Sacrament of Penance as it
is' there are three possibilities:

* if it means 'to know that the Sacrament of Penance is part of Christ's
  law' then this should exclude me from receiving forgiveness, beacuse I
  was told so by my RC brothers (I indentified them all as male) over and
  over again.

* if it means 'to agree with the official RC doctrine of Penance' then
  this should include members of the RCC who disagree with this
  doctrine.

* if it means 'to recognize it as God's decretive will for me' then -
  and only then - the last sentence of the above citation makes sense.
  But then again: who belongs to the group that can  * not *  receive
  forgiveness without confession to a priest? - Obviously only those who
  sin willfully by ignoring what they  * know *  to be God's decretive
  will for them. Who does this when it comes to seeking forgiveness???

Sorry to be so longwinded and persistent, but there seems to be some odd
logic behind this. On the other hand there is still a possibility that I
will get a clearer understanding of what God really thinks about this
matter. So I ask you to bear with with me.

Love,

Wolfgang <><
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