HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: yang@titan.ucc.umass.edu (HUAYONG YANG)
Subject: Re: Beginning a classical collection
Organization: University of Massachusetts, Amherst
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1992 16:47:15 GMT

In article <1992Dec28.091408.16539@leland.Stanford.EDU> paulxxxx@leland.Stanford.EDU (paulastya gupta) writes:
>Hello!  Questions from an ignormaus:
>

Hello! Suggestions from an ignormaus:

>1) How can one "break" into classical music?  My current collection 
>includes the grand sum of *2* classical CD's.  My current thoughts 
>are to get a book outlining the music of different ages (baroque, 
>romantic etc.), and start with the recommendations made as to great 
>works by the major composers.
>

I started with some popular/light classical music. Keep an eye on the
albums with titles like '... Greatest Hits'. Then I collect some serious
music CDs. Now I have ~60 CDs in classic. As a
ignormaus, I find many 'great works' recommended by textbooks
are boring. Bach's music is boring execpt Air on the G String (not his
own version). Handel's music is better to my taste. Mozart has a lot of
great and melodious music. Beethoven's Symphonies #5,9 and Piano
Concerto #5 are great. I can go on and on. Ask me if you are interested.
But beware that I am just a half-ignormaus.

>2) Last time I was at the local music store, I compared several CDs 
>of Tchaikovsky's 1812 overture, and noticed that the times differed
>by as much as 1 minute!  Does this mean that it may be slightly cut
>off in the shorter time performance?  This complicates CD buying.
>

I think the difference in time is caused by the tempos in which the
overture is conducted. No sure. And I don't care too much about it.
I have two versions of Beethoven's Symphony #5, one by Karajan and one
by Maazel. I notice that the the one by Karajan is faster than the one
by Maazel. I prefer the one by Karajan. BTW, 1812 overture is very
'noisy', but cool.:-)

>3) Should one look only for DDD recordings as opposed to ADD or AAD?
>This further complicates CD purchasing.
>

I was told that one can notice the noise in some Karajan's CDs when they
are played on a good stereo system, due to ADD or AAD. Since I don't
have a good stereo system, I can't testify this. But whenever possible,
I will go for DDD. I don't buy any AAD, like Toscanini's work.

>4) Should one look for particular condutors/orchestras performing that
>piece?  This really complicates CD selection!
>

Yes. Karajan and Bernstein are top choices.

>***************************************************
>
>Thanks.  As a side note, I was recently listening to The Planets by 
>Holst.  Strangely enough, as much as I liked "Mars", I thought the 
>remainder of the CD in its entirety was boring.  I am in my early 
>20s, and seem to go for involved peices (I also like hard rock and metal).
>

You are welcome. As a side note, I am in my mid 20s, and I also like
rock/pop. (I don't like hard rock and metal, sorry.)

>Any recommendations for my tastes?
>
>- paulxxxx@leland.stanford.edu


Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: dbarker@spang.Camosun.BC.CA (Deryk Barker)
Subject: Re: Opinions sought: Beethoven's Late String Quartets
Organization: Camosun College, Victoria B.C, Canada
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1992 19:21:21 GMT

zorro@picasso.ocis.temple.edu (John Grabowski) writes:
: Steve Monroe (v035550@stortek.com) wrote:
: : I am  interested  in opinions on
: : recordings of Beethoven's "late"
: : string quartets.
[....]
: 
: Possibly my favorite recording in my entire collection is of the Op. 131 
: String Quartet transcribed for an entire string orchestra.  Conducted by
: Bernstein, with the Vienna Phil., it's not the textbook way to do it, but
: it is nonetheless, a stunning musical experience.  Oddly, I'm no Bernstein
: fan (quite the opposite), so it's ironic that my favorite record would be one
: of his.  But the original Op. 131-as-orchestra-piece ideas was not his but
: Mitropoulos', so maybe that explains it.  (Mitropoulos made a recording in
: the 1940s on 78s that Mr. Bernstein bought as a child and loved.)

Ahem, not exactly. Mitropoulos iuncluded Op131 in his debut with the
BSO in January 1937. 'Shortly thereafter, the student (i.e. LB) came
to know the conductor, who presented him with (what were in those
days) steel air-check records played at 78rpm. They could be listened
to onlyu a few times for they wore out quickly; and, indeed, that is
exactly what happened in this case.' From Jack Gootlieb's liner note
to the DG LP release. DM apparently lent LB his copy of the score in
1946. The idea of performing 'orchestral' version of Beethoven's
quartets did not, of course, originate with Mitropoulos; probably the
first conductoir to do it was Mahler. There are also examples by
Furtwaengler and Toscanini. 

: As for recordings of the late quartets to avoid, I just bought the boxed set
: on RCA by the Cleveland Quartet and it's a lemon!  No expressivity, and, to 
: return to Op. 131, they take the scherzo so fast that many notes are missed
: (many notes!).  Fortunately, I bought the set from a used record shop, and
: only paid $11, so it's no great loss.
: 
: The set was produced by Thomas Z. Shepard, one of the better producers out
: there, which makes the quality all the more puzzling.

Why - do ensemble normally take tempo directions from producers? I
would also avoid the Lasalle quartet on DG.

The Lindsay's on ASV are very good as are the Italians on Philips and
the Alban Bergs on EMI (although they are a little too perfect for
some tastes).

IMO the greatest Op131 & 132 are the 1930s recordings by the Busch Quartet. I
only wish they had done Op130 and the GF.
--
Real:  Deryk Barker, Computer Science Dept., Camosun College, Victoria B.C.
Email: (dbarker@spang.camosun.bc.ca)
Phone: +1 604 370 4452
From: rtut@troi.cc.rochester.edu (Raymond Tuttle)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Haydn Trios on Dorian with Kalichstein, Laredo and Robinson
Date: 2 Jan 93 21:46:21 GMT
Organization: University of Rochester (Rochester, NY)

Some chamber groups, like the Borodin Trio and the Amadeus Quartet,
are named after a composer.  Others, like the Budapest Quartet, are
named after a place.  The Beaux Arts Trios was named after an artistic
ideal, I presume. The Kalichstein-Laredo-Robinson Trio has a name
which is nearly unmanageable, as it is named after each one of its
members: Joseph Kalichstein (piano), Jaime Laredo (violin) and Sharon
Robinson (cello). 

Fortunately, their music-making is far more mellifluous than their
name might suggest.  Their first CD for Dorian Recordings has just been
released (CD-90164), and it contains four trios by Franz Joseph Haydn
-- Hob. XV12 (in E minor), 27 (in C), 28 (in E), and 25 (in G, the one with
the "Gypsy rondo").  The recordings were made in September 1991 in the
Troy Savings Bank Music Hall in Troy, NY, the lucky site of many of
Dorian's recordings. 

Hearing these performances, one might well mistake Mendelssohn for
the composer of these trios. The K-L-R Trio plays these Classical
works with an almost Romantic expressiveness.  The music is made to
sound smooth and suave without the hard edge that other trios favor,
particularly those of the "authentic" instruments variety. 

There is nothing wrong with playing these charming works in this
manner, and if it wins more admirers for Haydn's trios, then all the
better.  I know that more than a few obsessive-compulsive purists are
going to get their noses out of joint about these performances, but
there is room for all sorts of different viewpoints in the musical
world, and these perfomances are very satisfying and have ample
technical and musical merit. 

Fortunately, the recording keeps the three instruments separate
without making them sound as if they were recorded in separate rooms. 
In keeping with the performances, the sound is warm and mellow.  This
is a pleasant release, and I hope that Dorian will be lucky enough to
record the K-L-R Trio again. 




--
****************************************   Raymond S. Tuttle
"Dunkel ist das Leben, ist der Tod,"       University of Rochester
but it's nothing to get depressed about!   (still with his two little 
****************************************   white mice).
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical,rec.music.early
From: hellerS@moravian.edu (sjh)
Subject: Re: *Very* early music
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 92 13:56:58 EST

Is this what is heard in the first 2 tracks of side one of the new Norton
Anthology of Western Music LPs? If it is, I'd LOVE to hear more! It is
really unusual and quite beautiful music.
From: curtis@sun1.aer.com (Curtis Heisey)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Ozawa
Date: 23 Dec 92 12:44:12 GMT
Organization: Atmospheric Environmental Research Inc., Cambridge, MA USA

In article <1992Dec22.211008.4569@nosc.mil> sampson@nosc.mil (Charles H. Sampson) writes:

	In a recent thread on Greatest Living Conductors, one respondent
   placed Ozawa near the very bottom of his list.  

I have to agree also.  In the five seasons that I've been attending BSO
concerts, I must admit that I prefer guest conductors to that of
Ozawa.  Ozawa, in my opin, hasn't rallied the potential that the BSO
exhibits.  Many members are exceptional players, but the ensemble
playing under Ozawa's hand just doesn't measure up to many of the
other US orchestras.  The man doesn't even live in Boston ... he
commutes from Japan.  In all fairness, I did hear him conduct a
wonderful, sensitive, firey Berlioz *Symphonie Fantastique* once, but
I've heard some real lemons, like Haydn's *The Seasons*.  I think it
is past time that Ozawa terminate his two decade tenure, and turn the
orchestra over to someone else, before this wondeful orchestra is
totally trashed.


--
Curt Heisey     curtis@aer.com
From: kos@cunyvms1.gc.cuny.edu (Bob Kosovsky)
Subject: Re: Hildegard Behrens vocal collapse?
Reply-To: kos@cunyvms1.gc.cuny.edu
Organization: Computer Center, CUNY Graduate School, New York NY 10036
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1992 03:20:07 GMT

In article <BzMJzE.HAx@news.udel.edu>, conrad@brahms.udel.edu (Jon Conrad) writes:
[Concerning Gwyneth Jones, who is singing Bruenhilde at the MET; responding
to a thought of Jones' poor vocal state:]

>Your friend must be out of touch.  Jones sings regularly all over, and
>though her voice is in, shall we say, variable shape and has been for
>some time now, it's no more so than it was (say) 10 years ago.  She sang
>one of the cycles the last time the Met did the RING (3 years ago).  Her
>"prime," if one wants to use the word with her, ended around 1972,
>whereupon she developed the wobble/straight-tone/unwieldy singing mode
>that she retains still.  AND I should add, still so loud, sometimes with
>laser-precise climactic high notes, personally radiant, dramatically
>incisive, that she can still cast a spell over (some of) an audience and
>make them buy what she does.  She may be excruciating to listen to 90%
>of the time, but she's still a canny pro, and very active.  I wonder
>where your friend's been hiding.  :-)

Jon, this must the be first time I'm totally disagreeing with you.  I saw
the Walkuere of Dec. 21 -- and she was atrocious!!!  Ok, she has the
stamina to dance around the stage and last the whole night through, but
she is close to unlistenable!!  The woman cannot sustain one tone without
vibrating so much that it wavers close to a half tone in either direction.
What's the point of being able to sing loud if you can't sing ONE SINGLE
NOTE in a proper manner?  I'm sure she must have paid the Met to sing there.

Oh well, I'm sure we'll agree on something in the future.

Bob Kosovsky
Graduate Center -- Ph.D. Program in Music(student)/ City University of New York
New York Public Library -- Music Division
bitnet:   kos@cunyvms1.bitnet        internet: kos@cunyvms1.gc.cuny.edu
Disclaimer:  My opinions do not necessarily represent those of my institutions.
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: owen@lloyd.Camex.COM (Owen Hartnett)
Subject: Re: Furtwaengler on Toscanini (my favorite Tosanini backbite)
Organization: Camex Inc., Boston MA
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 09:27:18 EST


While we're on the subject of famous conductors' carping, by favorite
Toscanini story is between him and Resphigi.  The two hated each other
pretty fiercely, but Toscanini would often conduct Resphigi's works.
One day they were together and Toscanini asked Resphigi:

"Have you heard my conduct your "Pines of Rome?""

"No, I haven't."

"You should," Tocanini mused.  "You wouldn't recognize it."


-Owen
From: diarmuid@uniwa.uwa.edu.au (Diarmuid Pigott)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Carnival of the Animals
Date: 30 Dec 1992 19:29:30 +0800
Organization: The University of Western Australia
NNTP-Posting-Host: uniwa.uwa.edu.au
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5

Laura Kittleson (LAURA@UCF1VM.BITNET) wrote:
: A long time ago, in a town far far away, I used to listen to
: a radio station that would occasionally play a recording of
: Saint Saens' Carnival of the Animals, in which Noel Coward
: read verses written by Ogden Nash, relevant to the work. 

The recording was CBS LP KLL529 (MONO), and was with Andre Kostelanetz and
his orchestra. Leonid Hambro and Jascha Zayde were the pianists.

I don't know if it's been re-released.
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: jfc@cs.cornell.edu (Jim Cremer)
Subject: opinion sought: Solti vs. Marriner Figaro?
Organization: Cornell University Computer Science Department
Distribution: na
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 21:37:41 GMT


Any quick opinions on Solti's vs. Marriner's (1985?) Figaro?
I know there are lots of others, including some others ( e.g. 1971 Davis)
that people might prefer over these.  But this is a present for someone
who'll probably like one of these the best.  I have the Solti and like
it, but don't know anything about the Marriner version.

Jim Cremer
jfc@cs.cornell.edu
cremer@cs.uiowa.edu
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: stefan@sinus.stgt.sub.org (Stefan Bechtold)
Subject: Re: male alti, counter-tenors, castrati, and so on
Organization: Sinus Stuttgart, Germany
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1992 23:37:54 GMT

velde2@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Francois Velde) writes:
>>   (note that the "production" of castrati was *always* a fairly illegal
>>   affair in all of italy -- read the excerpt from burney in strunk's book --
>>   in other words opera 1600-1800 rested on a very illegal activity,
>>   punishable by death in some cases, a bit like if the major popular
>>   music stars of this era were, say, all children who'd been kidnapped and
>>   sold in slavely)

>Might have been illegal (under whose law?) but the Pope's own chapel was 
>stocked with castrati for centuries.

>Related question: what did a castrato sound like: a soprano or a countertenor?
There are some recordings left which has been made 1902 and 1904 in
Italy with ALFREDO MORESCHI who was the last castrato. There is a CD made
of those recordings; really interesting !! (The company is OPAL). But
I don't think you'll like the voice. However, I think you must have heard
this CD if you're interested in such topics !

Happy new year,
Stefan

-- 
+ Stefan Bechtold # stefanb@delos.stgt.sub.org # Voice +49 711 813240 +
++++++++sed nemo potuit tangere: merda fuit ! (Martial III 17)+++++++++
From: gordon@dcs.exeter.ac.uk (Gordon Watson)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: SURVEY: FAVORITE PIANO CONCERTO
Date: 21 Dec 92 14:45:30 GMT
Distribution: rec
Organization: Computer Science Dept. - University of Exeter. UK

Mozart (again) number 17, esp. last movement, and number 25.
(Excellent buy: Geza Anda on DG, playing Nos 17 and 21, mid-price).

-Gordon.
--
Gordon Watson
 UNIX Systems Manager
  Department of Computer Science
   University of Exeter
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: bryan@netcom.com (Bryan Higgins)
Subject: Re: Beethoven's Symphonies
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 06:51:09 GMT

rags@triples.math.mcgill.ca (Robert A. G. Seely) writes:

>Save $8 (CDN) and get the Karajan for under $25.  (The Harnoncourt may be
>good, but a better value than the '63 Karajan set is hard to imagine.)

I noticed a blasphemy in this version of the first movement of the 5th.  At
measure 303 (the beginning of the second theme in the recap), Beethoven gives to
the bassoon the lick that the horns had in the exposition.  The reason for this
is partly because the (valveless) horns in Eb couldn't play the lick in the new
key of C.  But the switch to bassoons add charm, and it's Beethoven working with
the limitations of the horns.

In the Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra of 1963, the horn players of course use
horns with valves (as they had for 100 years previous) which are capable of
playing the entire chromatic scale, so Karajan (I'm assuming he's to blame) has
them play the lick at bar 303!  Maybe Beethoven would have done that, maybe not,
but to me the question is moot; it's not what Beethoven wrote.  Shame on
Karajan, and I think the piece is worse off, not better.

Incidently, one doesn't have to go to Harnoncourt or Norrington or other
socalled "historically correct" performances to find one that plays the notes as
written.  This kind of tampering is fortunately quite rare, though it apparently
used to be more widespread pre WWII.  It's intersting to note that Toscanini,
who is frequently lauded as a champion of sticking to the score, does similar
tampering in his famous recordings of the Beethoven symphonies.  I don't own
them, but I can recall his adding horn doublings with the woodwinds in the
scherzo of the 9th symphony.

Btw, there is an ultra-cheap set by Josef Krips and the London Symphony
around that is quite good (it was my first LP set, on Everest).  The CD set
is about $20.
-- 
Bryan Higgins, Berkeley, California  (bryan@netcom.com)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: pajerek@telstar.kodak.com (Don Pajerek)
Subject: Re: RFV: Bruckner Re: The BEST finale!
Reply-To: pajerek@telstar.kodak.com (Don Pajerek)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corp. - Telstar
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 16:57:09 GMT

In article <j90abv4@Unify.Com> ceb@dbrus.Unify.Com (Caroline E. Bryan) writes:
>In article <JWA.92Dec22230634@vipunen.hut.fi> jwa@vipunen.hut.fi (Jyrki J Wahlstedt) writes:
>>In article <1992Dec22.154744.3519@walter.bellcore.com> broken@venison.bae.bellcore.com (Tony Brokenborough) writes:

[Bruckner-hating slavering deleted]

>>>Even his contempories and the critics of his day hated his music.
>

Anti-Bruckner: Eduard Hanslick
Pro-Bruckner:  Hugo Wolf

>
>Carrie		ceb@rechenau.unify.com	x6244  


Don Pajerek

Standard disclaimers apply.
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: rbrooks1@cc.swarthmore.edu (Robert William Brooks)
Subject: Re: Christmas Gifts (Was: Bernstein's Live Mahler)
Reply-To: rbrooks1@cc.swarthmore.edu (Robert William Brooks)
Organization: Swarthmore College
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1993 18:21:42 GMT

edente@pearl.tufts.edu writes:
> Got for Christmas:
> A good idea. I'd like to hear what others received.  These were mine:
> Bach: Harpsichord Concertos Vol. I & II
>                      Pinnock, English Concert
> 
> Brahms: Piano Concerto No. 2
>                       Gilels, BPO, Jochum
> 
> Music for the Lionhearted King
>                         C. Page, Gothic Voices
> 
> Mahler: Symphony No. 6
>                       Bernstein, VPO
> 
> Hail Gladdening Light - Music of the English Church
>                       John Rutter, The Cambridge Singers
> 
> Strauss: Salome - VIDEOTAPE
>              Stratas, et al.
> 
> 
> Ed Dente
>     ri

Ok, here are mine:

Elgar Symphony no. 2--Andrew Davis/BBCSO

Mahler Symphony no. 5--Barbirolli/NPO

Bruckner Symphony no. 4--Tennstedt/BPO

Bruckner Symphony no. 5--Klemperer/NPO

Schubert Wanderer Fantasy and Sonata D.960--Brendel

Tchaikovsky Symphony no.4--Szell/LSO  :-D

Tchaikovsky Symphony no.6--Ormandy/Philadelphia

Rubinstein "Last Recital for Israel" (Beethoven, Chopin, Debussy, Schumann)


And a good time was had by all  :-)

Rob
-- 
Rob Brooks
rbrooks1@cc.swarthmore.edu

Selig sind, die da Leid tragen, denn sie sollen getrostet werden.
From: jiu1@husc11.harvard.edu (Haibin Jiu)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: the best finale!
Date: 1 Jan 93 20:42:01 GMT
Distribution: rec
Organization: Harvard University Science Center

In article <paul.a.webb-271292210657@hesmac16.hesburgh.lab.nd.edu> paul.a.webb@10nd.edu (paul webb) writes:
>It seems obvious to me and to many musicians that the greatest finale of
>them all is the one in Act Two of Mozart's "Marriage of Figaro".   The
>master uses over a thousand measures to expand a duet into a septet.

Man, then your expectations are really low! :)

HBJ
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: "alexander inglis" <alexander.inglis@canrem.com>
Subject: beethoven's symphonies
Reply-To: "alexander inglis" <alexander.inglis@canrem.com>
Organization: Canada Remote Systems
Distribution: rec
Date: 27 Dec 92 16:49:40 EST

To: dbarker@spang.camosun.bc.ca (Deryk Barker)

Thanks for your helpful post on WF and so many other topics.

DB>The Virtuoso set is identical to the Nuova Era, as follows:

I haven't seen the $20 Virtuoso set ... I *have* seen the $135 Nuovo Era
one .... *sigh*

DB>JH referred to is John Hunt, chairman of the Wilhelm Furtwaengler
  >Society UK and compiler of the 4 editions (so far) of The Furtwaengler
  >Sound. None of the other performances would be a first choice for me -
  >except maybe the 1st.

I have a *xerox* of the 2nd edition as republished (in English) in an
appendix to a German language book. I keep losing JH's address.

DB>A WF fanatic such as yourself should belong to either the UK or US
  >society and possess the discogrpahy. Mail me for more info.

If you do, I promise to invest in a stamp or two!

And I just saw your post concurring with my view of HvK's Mahler 9th!
Bravo! Or rather, *not* bravo!!!

Alexander Inglis  |  InterNet: alexander.inglis@canrem.com
Toronto,  Canada  |  CompuServe: 70307,20     BIX: ainglis
--
Canada Remote Systems  - Toronto, Ontario
World's Largest PCBOARD System - 416-629-7000/629-7044
From: gustavo@dent.uchicago.edu (Gustavo Comezana)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: CD prices
Date: 29 Dec 92 21:27:57 GMT
Organization: Dept. of Mathematics, U. of Chicago

In article <92364.142542U58402@uicvm.uic.edu> <U58402@uicvm.uic.edu> writes:
>These sorts of analyses are very interesting, but I think that from the
>standpoint of the consumer, this is the wrong index to use. What we
>probably should be looking at is cost/minute of listening time we will
>devote to out new purchase. For example: I buy two discs: one is a
>budget priced edition of the Beethoven Piano Concertos, the other is
>Dawn Upshaw's "Girl With Orange Lips". The budget beethoven is a three
>disc set, about 200 minutes of music for say $22, but it really sucks. I
>listen to it once and put it away. The Dawn Upshaw disc is about 50
>minutes, runs $15 (I didn't wait for the storewide sale), but I have
>happily listened to the disc ten times so far, and show no signs of
>shelving it. The budget Beethoven gave me 200 minutes of mediocre
>entertainment for $22, while the Upshaw gave me 500 minutes of first
>rate entertainment for $15. Now, which is the better deal?
>
>Now that I have finished this brilliant gedanken experiment :@) I
>realize that this actually supports the raising of CD prices. Nope. $21/disc
>is still too expensive for me.

Let me supply you with an example that really works: take Kertesz' set
of Dvorak Symphonies (with shorter orchestral pieces thrown in for
good measure), on 6 budget London discs, which is a total delight for
both the ears and the wallet. If you play the set only four times, it
will give you about 1600 minutes of top-notch music in excellent sound
for a measly $42 (or less), that is, less than $0.27 a minute. As for
a full-priced disc for comparison, take your pick: the current
catalogue is surely not lacking in lousy, expensive cd's that nobody
would willingly suffer through more than once ;-).