From: spinoza@next03wor.wam.umd.edu (Prince Lev of the Domovoi)
Subject: Re: Lev and Drieux do history part I-b
Organization: Workstations at Maryland, University of Maryland, College Park
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1992 22:34:54 GMT

In article <1992Apr12.202331.10558@wetware.com> drieux@wetware.com  
(drieux, just drieux) writes:
> 
> Please Note that lev sent this to me in email, and has
> specifically stated that it is for public release. I will
> Kibbitz from there.
I'd like to thank drieux at this point, and certify (not that anyone would  
doubt) that he has indeed posted the original unedited. Thanks again......
> >Date: Sat, 11 Apr 92 21:12:54 EDT
> >To: drieux@wetware.com
> >Subject: remembering why no one in the family was terribly upset when  
it was announced that Papa Joe was dead, etc.
> >
> >I'll not consider this private email, if that makes a difference, 
> >and I'd hate to let the net think that I agreed with everything 
> >you said because my silence would be taken as agreement.
> >Feel free to post to the net should you be feeling  
generous..................
> 
> >Thanks for granting the point of equivocation.
> >BTW, fear of the KGB has never been a motivation for my writing style  
> >( My father's family dealt with those individuals during the war, and  
> >after a period as involuntary "guests" in Tadzhikistan, everything  
> >was cleared up); perhaps you were extrapolating from the cause of  
> >your own unique writing style? :).
> >
> >Regarding General Vlasov: true and certain it is that Stalin was an  
> >SOB, and his perception of POW's as traitoruos for allowing  
> >themselves to be captured is merely one more indication that the man  
> >was skewed. Nevertheless, General Vlasov et al's decision to join the  
> >German Army for the duration goes a bit far, don't you agree?
> >Last I heard, it was incumbent upon prisoners to attempt escape; at  
> >the very least, they're not supposed to aid and abet the enemy.
> >While Vlasov may have figured he had nothing to lose (as he'd be  
> >considered a traitor anyway) and just joined to keep fed,the  
> >enthusiasm shown by many of these troops seems to indicate that they  
> >were not just in it for extra sauerbraten. In any case, as soon as  
> >Vlasov& his men took up arms against the Soviet Union, they were  
> >indeed committing treason. 
> 
> 1. Yes, the AMERICAN CODE OF CONDUCT is clear on the obligations
> of a POW in regards to the matter of resistence.
Point taken, but I believe the (former) Soviet Union also considered it a  
GoodIdea for captured soldiers to try and escape....
> 2. Vlasov, et al, were neither americans, nor POWs.
I was under the impression that Vlasov was in fact a POW. If he was not, 
his decision to ally himself with th eGermans becomes indefensible.....
> 3. We are talking here of one of the classic, 'lesser of two
> evils' notion, and that from the luxury of a good bit of history,
> and the pleasant well fed position of persons who enjoy an unreasonably
> large amount of liberty. All of which is why I find this whole thread
> to be VERY RELEVANT to the discussion of the 'abortion debate' as it
> would be incumbant upon us to pause, and ponder, how we too would react
> in such cases, and not merely pontificate from the pleasant lives we
> currently live.
> 
> 4. The flip side of this whole discussion is the matter of the Spanish
> Civil War, and the place of the Soviet Aid in that struggle against
> Fascism..... I presume you are aware of George Orwell's writings on
> that period, as well as his concerns about the extremes of both the
> fascists and the communists, and their respective ThoughtPolice.
True and certain it is that both the Republicans and Nationalists had  
extremists, but on the whole one could argue that the Republicans were the  
"better" bunch of folks, what with their ideas about liberty, equality,  
and like that..... While they did ally themselves with the Soviets, it's  
not like they had a lot of choice. Except for the volunteers of the Abe  
Lincoln Brigade, and some of the Republican Air Force, the US idn't really  
do anything to oppose the spread of fascism.....
> >In fact, some captured Soviet soldiers seem to have had quite a bit  
> >of enthusiasm for their duties with their  new allies, most notably  
> >Ivan Marchenko/Demjanjuk, who took to anticommunism with a  
> >vengeance...........................
> 
> Turn about being fair play, one can also take into account the 
> number of Nazi/SS who found a home in the then Newly Formed People's
> Republics in Central Europe. {As opposed to the number of antifascists
> who went to the wall, at their hands of their Red Liberators....}
Right. Stalinists both in the Soviet Union and in satellites nations were  
as a rule, really unpleasant guys. That particular point was conceded a  
ways back, but still does not excuse ex-Soviets like Demjanjuk et al...
> I believe that we are therefore in concurance that life is a 
> harsh reality, and rarely as pleasant an encounter as on Nick_at_Nite.
Amen and Hallelujah.
> >That having been said, I do indeed condemn the forced repatriation of  
> >White Russians who were not in fact Soviet citizens, in the event  
> >that no crimes were committed against Soviet nationals by these  
> >individuals.
> 
> Hum... a small problem here... who is to arbitrate who was what
> and which 'crimes' were committed against whom... 
The Nuremberg War Crimes Trials were a pretty good forum for determining 
guilt in the matter of War Crimes. A judiciary body of that nature seeems  
like it'd work....
> As a part of the Russian Emigre Community Abroad, stalin was still of
> the general opinion that they were essentially Soviet Citizens, as they
> had not yet, in most cases, become citizens of an other country.
This is why citizens should be allowed free immigration, and the right 
to change citizenship. 
> And like many countries where in mere birth within their sovereign
> borders is sufficient for that state to lay claim to sovereignty
> over said person... we have the problem of deciding who's citizens
> they really are.....
This ius why dual citizenship was invented. I've friends who are  
Argentine/US citizens becasue Agentina considers them Argentines,  
nevertheless, being civilized folks they're not trying to kidnap them off  
the streets.
> Funny, but this is back to that matter of Birth As an arbitor of BEING.
> 
> >As for Wehrmacht members held by the USSR into the 50's, I am  
> >familiar with this particularly despicable practice of the USSR, as  
> >my mother's father had the misfortune of being such a prisoner  
> >(drafted in '40, captured '42, released '50).
> 
> Life is full of such fun matters... One of my friends, had the 
> amusement that one uncle was drafted and fought in russia with
> the germans, while the other joined the marqui and fought the
> germans.... 
> 
> ciao
> drieux

shalom,

lev
"Lo yisa goy el goy cherev, lo yilmedu od milchama....but until then keep  
the Galil oiled and loaded......"