From: weemba@libra.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Re: WEEMBA and DABROSKI Angst (Was: Re: Achilles heels for religion?
Date: 6 Apr 92 21:05:00 GMT
Article-I.D.: netnews.72944
Reply-To: weemba@libra.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener)
Distribution: world,public
Organization: The Wistar Institute of Anatomy and Biology
In-reply-to: J5J@psuvm.psu.edu (John A. Johnson)

In article <92097.134726J5J@psuvm.psu.edu>, J5J@psuvm (John A. Johnson) writes:
>>>suggests that perhaps you are not a nonatheist.  But, because you did
>>>not come right out and say, "I am an atheist, and whoever said I was
>>>a nonatheist was mistaken," you left room for doubt.

>>That was my intention.

>It seems to me that you enjoy confusing people by being evasive.

Uh no.  I intended to leave room for doubt.  No more, no less.  OK, a
little bit more.  I also wanted to see whether people bring it up.  I'm
impressed: they didn't, except for your article, and even then, as a
different issue.

>>My personal beliefs or lack thereof are irrelevant to the
>>discussion--I want people to respond to my assertions and arguments,
>>not what they think I might believe.

>Whether or not you are an atheist is indeed irrelevant to your arguments
>on many subjects.  However, whether or not you are an atheist is NOT
>irrelevant to the question of whether or not you are an atheist, and
>THAT is the question here.

Yes, it's a question *you* asked, and I'm not usually very cooperative on
personal matters.  You could probably get more information from alt.weemba
than from weemba.

>			     My original post on this thread stated my
>annoyance about seeing so many nonatheist postings when I logged in.
>Your reply:  "Who said I was a nonatheist?" suggests that I might
>be wrong to assume that you are a nonatheist.               ^^^^^

I'm still curious.  Where have I even suggested my stance one way or the
other on this issue?  I've been carefully talking about Judaism's claims
in the 3rd person.

>I'm trying to determine whether I was mistaken to suggest that my
>screen was filled with postings from nonatheists.  You are not
>helping at all to resolve whether I was mistaken or not.

May I suggest that it's not important whether you were mistaken or not?
You received your impression, but I don't think you received it from my
words, but from my choice of "sides".

I don't bother responding to the creationists in talk.origins, for example,
since numerous people do a fine job for that drudgery.  You'll usually
find me disagreeing with an evolutionist who is mangling the science.
Yet no one concludes that I'm a creationist, or even bothers raising
it as an issue.  Over here, just for clarifying what traditional Judaism
says about Genesis 1-2, Eric wonders if I'm a creationist.

>>Why don't you help me out?  Which God do I believe in?

>Belief in ANY God will disqualify you from using the label "atheist"
>to describe yourself.  Define God any way you wish.

"God" is the Creator of Emacs, the One True Editor.  Does this disqualify
me?

>Please note, however, that I'll still assume you are a nonatheist
>unless you say that YOU do not believe you have a relationship with
>God (defined any way you wish).  I clearly understand that many
>Jewish people believe that all Jews have a relationship with God, even
>if they deny God's existence.  You have refused to make clear whether
>you are one of these Jews who believes he has a relationship with God
>regardless of his belief in God.

That's right.  I've been trying to describe what traditional Judaism
says, not what Weemba may or may not believe.  The latter is of little
relevance.

>I'm sure you remember how I pointed out that it is absurd for one and
>the same person to profess disbelief in God and belief that he has a
>relationship with God.  But a person who is fond of koans might not be
>afraid to face such an absurdity.  Just wondering what your position is.

Nu.

Anyway, the above is a koan, but it is not what I was discussing.  It is
not absurd for a religion to say one thing, and a person to say another.
And despite 2000 years of Christian assertions to the contrary, it is
not absurd to have a religion make radically different assumptions about
its membership.

>>If you're going to put the theist label on me,
>>you're obligated to fill in some details, please.

>Absolutely not.  The question is not what KIND of theist you are,
>but whether or not you are an atheist.

Evasion works both ways.  I haven't a clue regarding "God", so maybe
if you tell me the details, I'll be able to answer your question.

One Jewish definition is that an atheist (for a Jew) is     | D H l a | gtk
someone who does not keep the Sabbath.  Is that acceptable  | a	e y g |	rhi
to you?  The fact that I visit my rabbi Uncle Farley every  | m	  i a |	eib
Sabbath and out of respect for _him_ do not engage in any   | n	i n i |	pso
Sabbath violations suddenly make me a theist in your eyes?  | .	s g n |	-,!
-- 
-Matthew P Wiener (weemba@libra.wistar.upenn.edu)