HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: krizaj@mcclb0.med.nyu.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: greek twist&shout
Date: 30 Jul 92 03:45:11 GMT
Organization: NYU Medical Center, New York, NY 10016, USA


Greek twist&shout

An accidental viewer of the soc.culture.yu, I was surprised to witness 
the ferocity and lack of elegance displayed by many Greek
interlocutors. All this twisting of ancient writers, shouting and
shoving has a distinctly oriental flair; nothing wrong with that, save
the fact that this behaviour acts as a hypodermic needle injecting a
little more inhumanneness under the skin of the world that is already
choking under the load of Balkan wars.
     The furor about Macedonia is for an outsider surprising, if not
downright bizarre. After all, one would expect Greece, itself a proud
claimant to history, to behave as a civilized European nation would
(or should). EC members, for example, were (and still are) unanimously
and openly dismayed by the Greek hysteria (an appropriate word
indeed!) and only conditionally gave in to blackmailing from Mr.
Mitsotakis personally. But maybe we should retrace our steps only for
a few centuries instead of thousands of years, when this region was a
valiant vassal of the Turks. Nowadays it would be much more difficult
for a god to "pull Achilles by his yellow hair"; indeed, the
Greek-speaking population of today seems to be rather different from
the blond beasts that invadede the Peloponesus, killing off the
previous occupants. To my untrained ear Greek music sounds beautiful
and -oriental; Turkish names among the Greeks are not uncommon (not to
mention the derivations; has anyone heard of an ancient Greek name of
Karanicolas, etc?); of course there are many facts compelling one not
to push the analogy too far, but the Greeks seem to be aware of them
to the extent that would be touching if it were not interfering with
elementary human rights of other peoples.
     After all, and as a matter of principle, if a people considers
itself to be a distinct nation and chooses itself a name, it is both
irrational and immoral to prevent it from doing so. The Egyptians of
today have nothing in common (excepting perhaps a few Copts) with the
pharaonic Egypt so - what? The same with Italian Romagna and Romans! I
really wonder what would Socrates himself have to say about the lack
of restraint expressed by the contemporary Hellenes shaking their
curls furiously at their northern neighbour, displaying their Angst in
a manner Europe has been to conditioned to fear so much in the
Balkans...; the golden mean itself seems to be history, together with
the ancient Hellenes and Macedonians and Phrygians and - the
barbarians. 
     Indeed, if I paraphrase, the Greeks behave as they had lost their
heart - however, they will not recover it by recovering a mythical
Macedonia, or even less an entrance for the Encyclopedia Britannica -
but by accepting a poor neighbour as a friend and, quien sabe, a
protege.

                          Sincerely,
  
                                David Krizaj
From: pnmideast@igc.org
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: The Yellow Armband Action
Date: 20 Jul 92 05:30:00 GMT
Nf-ID: #N:cdp:1475300282:000:2555
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!pnmideast    Jul 19 22:30:00 1992


From: <pnmideast>
Subject: The Yellow Armband Action

/* Written  5:43 pm  Jul 17, 1992 by support@oln.comlink.apc.org in cdp:yugo.antiwar */
/* ---------- "The Yellow Armband Action" ---------- */
/* Written 16.07.92 by ERIC.BACHMAN@ZAMIR-BG.ZER in/to /APC/YUGO/ANTIWAR */
/* ----- "The Yellow Armband Action" ----- */

Today the Center for Antiwar Actions, Citzens alliance and civilian 
resistence movement in Beograde organised an action in front of the 
federal parlaiment. The following leaflet was destributed to call 
the citizens of Belgrade to participate.


"Belgraders

Fear and terror are comming to our city. Are we going to allow it?

Serbs-Belgraders

We are especially addressing you: do you know what is happening to 
our fellow townsmen who are not Serbs. Do you know that in our city, which 
has always been friendly and open towards people of all nations and 
confessions, a second class citizens law is being introduced. Do you know 
that every day people of non-serbian nationality are being harassed 
in their apartments, at work, in the streets? Menaces range from explicit 
demands for leaving Serbia to death threats! Do you know that non-serbs 
and nationally mixed families are leaving Belgrade? Will we allow that 
to go on?


By raising your voice in defense of ethnic Hungarian, Croats, Slovenes, 
Muslims, ethnic Albanians and others, you are defending lives in Zagreb,
Sarajevo and Mostar!

Serbs, Croats, Muslims, Hungarians, Albanians, Slovenes and all other 
Belgraders!

Join us. We shall all ware yellow armbands because we want the same rights 
for all citizens of Belgrade. Without them, Belgrade, will not be the 
same. Belgrade will lose its soul and reputation! As a symbol of protest 
against such increasingley phenomena, We invite yuo to join our action 
"The yellow Armband" which symbolizes injustice towards members of other 
confessons and nations.

We will gather on Wednesday, July 15, at 5 p.m. in front of the federal 
parlament and holding our hands we will circle the building.

We invite all participants of the studens protest 92, members of 
"Nezavisnost" union, the serbian renewal movement, the DEPOS and all 
other political parties and movements to join us!"


The action gathered ca. 1500 people, young and old, men and women,
and lasted for two hours. It should be said that before this meeting 
it occured dis-information about the date. As a result of this, people 
were gathered around the federal parlament yesterday.

Eric Bachman and Joakim Thomasson, participants and obsevers....
Xref: sparky soc.culture.yugoslavia:7414 soc.culture.greek:6872 soc.culture.europe:6668
From: George Bogavac <K2GT@UNB.CA>
Subject: Re: Muslim Government of Bosnia reject to talk
Organization: University of New Brunswick
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 14:36:21 GMT

In article <1992Jul31.055734.14452@wuecl.wustl.edu> victor@jezebel.wustl.edu (Victor Wickerhauser) writes:
>In article <1992Jul31.035900.6984@cco.caltech.edu> simic@pollux.ccsf.caltech.edu (Petar Simic) writes:
>
>> situation in Serbia? (Serbia was rather respected parlamentary monarhy and
>> democracy once, so to base such a a serious decission with long term
>> consequences to the Serbian people on the like or dislike of the temporary
>> post-communist government in Serbia seems rather shortsided).
>
>I know several people who would argue that the Serbian monarchy in KSCS and
>Yugoslavia was undemocratic (even racist) from the start, even before it
>abolished the constitution in 1930.  The best explanation I read was in a
>Wall Street Journal article that said Serbs wanted to run a profitable empire
>composed of their "winnings" in WWI, and the monarchy or whatever followed
>was entirely bent to this purpose.
>

Well, I guess the Serbs just can't do anything right, can they?

>> --------------------------------------------------
>>V. Wickerhauser: >>The Bosnian Government is secular and multicultural, not
>> Muslim: it contains ministers from all three of the major ethnic groups.<<
>> ------------------------------------------
>> In fact it is Muslim and Croat government, while the democratically
>> elected representatives of Bosnian Serbs left some time ago, when it became
>> clear that the coalition of the two ethnic groups - Muslims and Croats -
>> have been formed against the third - Bosnian Serbs. Legality of this
>> government is about the same as the legality of the infamous "incomplete Yu
>> government" after Croatian and Slovenian representatives left. The
>
>out.  Also, their response was to call for confederation, local sovereignity,
>and finally independence,

So, how is that different from the Serbian demand that Bosnia becomes
a confederation, a plan that is supported, and has been supported by
the EC ("the Lisbon paper") since the beggining of the year, long
before the violence started?

>extra seats in the Bosnian parliament.  They are fighting to exterminate
>independent Bosnia, rather than to achieve parity in the Bosnian government.
>

So why didn't the Slovenes and Croats fight to achieve "parity" in
the Yugoslav government, rather then going for independence?
I'll tell you why: You fail to see the difference between nominal
and effective power. No matter how many representatives one nation
has in a multi-ethnic government/parliament it will always be
under the control of the most numerous nation: That was the case
with Serbs in Yugoslavia, that is the case with Muslims in Bosnia.

>> Regards,
>> Petar S.
>
>Regards,
>Victor

Regards,
George Bogavac
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: pnmideast@igc.org
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Date: 20 Jul 92 22:25 PDT
Subject: Novosti iz Hrvatske
Nf-ID: #N:cdp:1475300289:000:857
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!pnmideast    Jul 20 22:25:00 1992


From: <pnmideast>
Subject: Novosti iz Hrvatske

/* Written  9:06 pm  Jul 20, 1992 by DAMIR_MRKONJIC@f100.n381.z2.gnfido.fidonet.org in cdp:yugo.antiwar */
/* ---------- "Novosti iz Hrvatske" ---------- */
PP>  nalaze u Orono,Maine.Zelio bih primati svjeze informacije iz zemlje
PP>  pa vas molim da mi pocnete slati novosti na adresu koju ce te naci na 
PP>  pocetku ovog file.Za svaki slucaj ponovit cu je jos jednom:           
PP>         IO10826@MAINE.maine.edu.                                       
PP>  Ako je moguce saljite mi vijesti na hrvatskom i na engleskom.Zelio bih

Posalji poruku na adresu:
        croatian-news-request@andrew.cmu.edu

i vijesti ce stizati redovno.

Pozdrav, Mrki.
___
 * MegaMail 2.10 #0: Evo zore, evo dana evo Tomca i Tu|mana!

--- Maximus 2.01wb
 * Origin: Alt::BBS -=- Split, Croatia -=- ++38 58 320 444 (2:381/100)
From: rbeltz@stowe.mitre.org (Randolph Beltz)
Subject: Family members in Slovenia
Organization: The MITRE Corporation, Bedford MA
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 17:25:29 GMT

I am new to this news group and am not really sure who in Europe would actually monitor these postings.

My last name is BELTZ which may or may not have been translated from BEVIS (our family still argues over this point).  Our family is from the northern most district of Yugoslavia; Slovenia.  I would like to contact and correspond to any relatives over there if possible...the problem is I don't have a listing of who they are (the last relative to visit Slovenia was in 1972-they have since lost addresses and names).  I do know they are well educated and might have access to this network.

Could someone reply back and tell me:

	1. If this newgroup would be of any use in contacting relatives
	2. An alternate method to getting names and address out of Slovenia


Thanks,

Randolph Beltz
rbeltz@mitre.org






Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: dmatic@athena.mit.edu (Davor Matic)
Subject: Re: opposition
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 17:48:20 GMT

In article <Jul.25.02.48.44.1992.26463@andromeda.rutgers.edu> pshane@andromeda.rutgers.edu (Ana M. Shane) writes:
>dmatic@athena.mit.edu (Davor Matic) writes:
>
>>In article <1475300283@igc.org>, pnmideast@igc.org writes:
>>|>         So we beg the world to help us.Don't be mistaken,it is not
>>|> the overwhelming majority that supports the position,there are a
>>|> lot of us striving for truth and justice.Please,help us,we are
>>|> desperate.You will not help us by bombing us,the sanctions are
>>|> enough.         
>>|> 
>>|> Bojana Cvejic,Belgrade. 
>
>>I don't think that anyone wants to bomb civilians.  If any bombing does occur, it
> ^^
>>will be military targets only.  And in my opinion, this actually WOULD help 
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^                           *******************
>>you. 
>****
>>Taking the toys away from the steam-heads that think they can have their way if
>>they have the pover, will be a positive move.  Once Serbian generals start being
>>affraid of Croats or Bosnians, because their military superiority has been
>>destroyed by an outside factor, maybe there will finally be a ripe athmosphere
>>for negotiations.  As one Slovene military expert said, this war is the SIXTH
>>(yes, 6th) time in the last two centuries that serbs stared a war for Great
>>Serbia.  It's about time to end this nonsence and put a damper on Serbian
>>military power.  Just like with Germany after WWII.
>
>
>^^You are either naive or stupid or both...
>
>**and also vicious...
>
>but maybe just a victim of propaganda...
>
>You didn't learn yet that aggression only perpetuates aggression and will
>never bring any peacefull solutions? 
>
>
>Peace
>Ana M. Shane

Listen darling, if you had a gun and were about to kill ten people,
and if I had a clear shot at you, I wouldn't hesitate much about it.
I am very much for peace, but that doesn't relieve me of moral choices
that might include violence themselves.  So, unfortunately, there are
times when one has to use violence to facilitate peace.

				Regards,
				--- Davor



Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: dmatic@athena.mit.edu (Davor Matic)
Subject: Re: CULTURE, FINALLY!
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 18:16:52 GMT

I think a very important consideration is literary form.  If you have
a langunage like Serbo-Croatian, that needs two different literary
forms then there is something wrong with it.  A language should be
well defined so that it has a single literary form.  If you force
Serbian literary form into Serbo-Croatian, then you are depriving
Croats of their language.  If you force Croatian literary form into
Serbo-Croatian, then you deprive Serbs of their language.  In my
opinion they should be different languages.  They should be let alone
so that they can develope on their own withougt having double
alpahabets, spellings and deffinitions for almost every concept in the
language.  The fact that one understands Serbian if he speaks Croatian
has no bearing on the definition of the language in my opinion.  I
also understand most of Slovene, but I would never say that Croatian
and Slovenian are the same.  Althougt they have a lot in common, they
definiely have different literary forms.  The same is true with Dutch
and German, etc, etc, etc.

Just think of the following test.  WHen you take a piece of writing, 
can't you always tell whether it was written in Serbian or Croatian?
It takes me less than a sentence to figure it out.  So thre are
ditinctly two different litarary forms, even if they were written in
the same alphabets.  You can borrow Serbian words when you write in
Croatian form, or you can borrow Croatian words when you write in
Serbian form, but it is quite evident which litarary form one uses
without any doubt.  I think this is enough to distinguish the two
languages.  There might not be a need to translate one to another to
understand them, but they are definitely distinct.
From: draskovi@usc.edu (Zoran Draskovic)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Iz casopisa Slobodna Dalmacija
Date: 29 Jul 1992 21:50:09 -0700
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: girtab.usc.edu

=========================================================================
SLOBODNA DALMACIJA                                              22.07.92.
=========================================================================

Socijalisticka stranka Hrvatske:

                           NEVOLJE S DOMOVNICOM

ZAGREB -- U posljednjih nekoliko dana Socijalisticka stranka Hrvatske
primila je velik broj pismenih i telefonskih upita gradjana Republike
Hrvatske, kojima je odbijen zahtjev za izdavanje domovnica.

Prema njihovu misljenju ne postoje valjani razlozi za neizdavanje toga
dokumenta.

Zato se oni smatraju gradanima drugoga reda, a posebno su ogorceni zbog
cinjenice da su samim tim onemoguceni u ostvarivanju osnovnih gradanskih
prava, kao sto su dobivanje osobne iskaznice, putovnice, ovjere
kupoprodajnih ugovora i tome slicno -- kaze se u priopcenju
Socijalisticke stranke Hrvatske.

Iako su upute o sastavljanju birackih spiskova nedvojbene (pravo na upis
u biracki spisak imaju svi gradani koji su glasali na izborima 1990.
godine i na referendumu o samostalnosti i neovisnosti Republike Hrvatske
1991. godine) pojedini organi uprave u opcinama zahtijevaju na uvid i
domovnicu.

Tako postoji mogucnost da znacajan broj gradjana ne moze ostvariti svoje
ustavno pravo i obavezu.

Drugo, time se daju dodatni argumenti onima koji u svijetu nastoje
pokazati kako je sluzbena politika Republike Hrvatske diskriminatorska,
te da u Hrvatskoj postoje gradani prvoga i gradjani drugoga reda.

Nije ni potrebno isticati koliko takve pojave stete ugledu Hrvatske u
svijetu, i od kolike su vaznosti u odredivanju politike medjunarodnih
institucija naspram Hrvatske.

Osim toga, time se i u znatnog dijela gradana Republike Hrvattske stvara
osjecaj ponizenja, neravnopravnosti i revolta, sto za Republiku takoder
moze imati znacajne posljedice.

Smatramo da je na ovu pojavu nuzno stalno upucivati paznju javnosti, da
bi se njezini ucinci ispravljali na politickom planu.

Drugo, kako bismo pomogli gradjanima, osnovali smo Ured za pravnu pomoc
koji radi svaki dan od 16 do i8 sati u Zagrebu, Kruge 48, tel. 614084, u
kojem tim strucnjaka, koje je angazirala Socijalisticka stranka, nastoji
pruziti adekvatnu pravnu pomoc -- stoji na kraju priopcenja SSH.

_______________________________________________________________________________
From: merlic@jacob.UVic.CA (Mile  Erlic)
Subject: Re: USA - Croatia  103: 70
Organization: University of Victoria, Victoria, BC, Canada
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 92 16:06:11 GMT

In article <19395@plains.NoDak.edu> CP6uH@plains.NoDak.edu (CP6uH) writes:
>In article <Bs2q1B.6u8@ecf.toronto.edu> blazic@ecf.toronto.edu (BLAZIC Joseph R) writes:
>>Does anyone know how many Croatian Serbs on are the Croatian basketball
>>team?
>>
>>Joe Blazic
>
>Hm. I think that Drazen&Aleksandar Petrovic and Tony Kukoc have some Serbian
>blood though I am not sure. Anyway, does anyone have a complete list of the
>players for Croatia?
>

Drazen Petrovic's father is a Serb and his mother is a Croat. They run
a restaurant in Zagreb.



-- 
Mile Erlic, Dept. Elec. & Comp. Eng., Univ. of Victoria
Victoria, B.C., Canada V8W 3P6, (604) 721-8660
merlic@sirius.uvic.ca
From: CP6uH@plains.NoDak.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Joke
Summary: ORIGINAL JOKE - FOR REAL
Keywords: croats, istrians, joke, picnincs...
Date: 25 Jul 92 03:50:20 GMT
Article-I.D.: plains.19342
Organization: University of North Dakota at Grand Forks


if you get offended by a faulty language or you are to sensitive to your
nationality, please press 'n'.....





I had a talk with a friend of mine, who is a Croat born in Canada.
Well we had a discussion how beautiful girls can be found at
the national meetings and picnics. He remarked, that all you need
is to know how to talk to the girl's parents - he said you should
approach them, introduce yourself, and then remark :

 '(in this order):
 1.  "Death to Serbian agressors"
 2.  "Free Slavonia"
 3.  "Can I screw your daughter?"'

 ... and hope they are not from Istria...
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: George Bogavac <K2GT@UNB.CA>
Subject: Re: Serbian language
Organization: University of New Brunswick
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 23:45:19 GMT

In article <1992Jul21.201424.12272@talon.ucs.orst.edu> neven@orca.ECE.ORST.EDU (Neven Orhanovic;737-3448;;757-1803;halibut) writes:
>In article <21JUL92.12161453.0212@UNBVM1.CSD.UNB.CA> K2GT@UNB.CA (George Bogavac) writes:
>>
>>The language spoken in the majority of ex-YU republics (Croatia,
>>Bosnia-Herzegovina,Montenegro & Serbia ) is essentially the same
>>language, meaning that people from these republics can communicate
>>without any problems. There are different dialects, and some
>>differences in vocabulary, but again, these differences are minor.
>>The grammar (including spelling) is the same.
>     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>This is not true. Please have a look at the Croatian orthography
>(Babic, Finka, et al.) originally published in 1971 but banned
>during communist rule. (It was carefully written (watered down)
>not to offend Serbian "friends", but was still banned.)
>It will dispute your claims.
>

Unfortunately, I don't have the book in question, but I would
appreciate if you could post some examples on gramatical differences
and spelling differences. By spelling differences I mean an example
where the Croatian language doesn't follow the rule: "Pisi kao sto
govoris..." (something like that :-).
I must admit that I have never come across any gramatical differences
even though I read a lot of Croatian books/magazines, including
the newly published ones...
Note that I'm not talking about differences in vocabulary.

>Regards,
>Neven

Regards,
George Bogavac.

P.S.

*** I CAN'T BELEIVE THAT THERE IS FINALLY A DISCUSSION ABOUT  ***
*** CULTURE ON S.C.Y. :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) ***
From: bucukov@bisco.kodak.com (Ilija Bucukovski (6-0998))
Subject: MAKEDONIJA
Originator: bucukov@bisco
Organization: Eastman Kodak
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 92 17:24:37 GMT

				MAKEDONIJA NA MAKEDONCITE!!!
				(MACEDONIJA FOR THE MACEDONIANS)!!

As a new participant in this BB, I am impressed with some of the findings about
 my old country Macedonija. At same time I am very disturbed by the ignorance
 that some people exhibit, writing propaganda information about Macedonija. The
 fact is that there is Macedonija and there will be Macedonija. There is no
 such thing  as the country of Skopje. This name represents only one of the
 many cities in Macedonija.

Here I am referring to the REAL Macedonija, that is the former Yugoslav
 republic Macedonija. The Macedonian language is a language spoken on the
 streets, schools, universities, military...and everywhere. It is very opposite
 to the province in Greece where any use of the Macedonian language can only
 lead to a prison term.

The name MAKEDONIJA is OURS. It is not Greek. Greece does not recognize
 Macedonian population within its border as anything but Greeks. So, what is
 the big deal? Why do Greeks claim the name?

Furthermore, the new Macedonian Constitution calls for independence of the
 Yugoslav Macedonija only. It has no interest in claiming territories from
 Greece or Bulgaria. 

Now the Macedonian language topic. Our language has been there for a long long
 time. Just to illustrate my point: The same language spoken today was spoken
 even during the Turkish Empire which lasted 500 years in Macedonija. It is not
 that all of sudden after W.W.II all of this was created as some of you
 suggest.

Having lived there for 20+ years in the recent history, I feel I can state
 facts much better than people born elsewhere in the world who just look at
 things from outside.


Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: susan_soric@upubs.uchicago.edu (Susan Soric)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Chicago Benefit Aug.1
Date: 28 Jul 92 17:01:58 GMT
Distribution: all
Organization: Univ. of Chicago

A benefit dinner and silent auction will be held at 6 p.m.
August 1 in the Willowbrook Ballroom, 8900 S. Archer
Willow Springs, to raise support for war victims
in Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina.

Benefit profits will go to the International Committee
of the Red Cross to support its work with war
victims in the two former Yugoslav Republics.

Art to be auctioned during the benefit was contributed
by artists of Croatian, Serbian, Slovenian, Macedonian,
Russian, and American descent.  An address by Mr.
 Ettore Leale, a representative from the Office of
 International Services of the American Red Cross, 
will follow dinner.  Sponsor of the benefit is a Chicago
group called Dialogue for Peace: Promoting
Peace and Human Rights in the Balkans.

 Tickets are $25 and may be reserved by calling
(312) 384-8544.  People wishing to make
donations for war victims may send checks designated
for relief in Croatia or Bosnia-Herzegovina to the 
American Red Cross, 43 E. Ohio St., Chicago, IL  60611
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia