HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: claird@NeoSoft.com (Cameron Laird)
Subject: Re: Cross-Writing (was: Books I Got For Xmas)
Organization: NeoSoft Communications Services -- (713) 684-5900
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 20:23:12 GMT

In article <1993Jan5.132239.18533@psych.toronto.edu> dsy@psych.toronto.edu (Desiree Sy) writes:
>In article <1ib2qaINN5hb@morrow.stanford.edu> francis@oas.stanford.edu (Francis Muir) writes:
			.
			.
			.
>>Likewise, the Shagger Pagger
>>wins no prizes for his women qua women. 
>
>Whaaaaat?  Really?  Excepting the histories, I'd think the women
>are quite a lot more interesting than the men.  Look at Viola,
>Juliet, Hermione, Portia, Isabella, Rosalind, Lady M and Beatrice.   
>Come to think of it, even Portia (JULIUS CAESAR, not MERCHANT OF V)
>isn't bad.  This list goes on for a bit.  However, I see that if
>you think of the big tragedies, the women aren't as much in
>evidence:  all those shrinking violets being drowned, smothered,
>or banished.  (Not quite fair; I don't think Cordelia quite falls
>in the same category.)
>
>-desiree

That gets my vote.  'Fact, I could have sworn
there was a time when it was generally accepted
in academe that Shakespeare's women were more
interesting--lively, realistic, and so on.  I'm
no expert, certainly ...
-- 

Cameron Laird
claird@Neosoft.com (claird%Neosoft.com@uunet.uu.net)	+1 713 267 7966
claird@litwin.com (claird%litwin.com@uunet.uu.net)  	+1 713 996 8546
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: dani@netcom.com (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Re: Shouting at robots
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 22:08:59 GMT

People have been shouting at robots and their ilk for centuries (in fiction
and literature), but until recently there was always the implicit assumption
that it might do some good.  As robots become a reality, their limitations 
are treated more 'realistically'.  The earliest book I can think of in which
someone is shouting at a robot that isn't equipped to be shouted at is in
H Beam Piper's "The Cosmic Computer" (1963 -- I don't think the scene
appeared in the magazine version, but I'm not sure):

	In the middle of his assurances about the harmlessness of
	Merlin, the housecleaning-robot began knocking things off
	the top of a table.

	"Oscar!  You stop that!" his mother yelled.

	Oscar, deaf as the adder, kept on.  Conn yelled at his mother
	to use her control; she remembered that she had one, a thing
	like an old-fashioned pocket watch, around her neck on a
	chain, and got the robot stopped.

	No wonder she was afraid of Merlin.

I don't think the Brass Head counts.

-----
Dani Zweig
dani@netcom.com

   Aphorism is better than none.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: sanjiva@ecrc.de (Sanjiva Prasad)
Subject: Re: Shouting at robots
Reply-To: sanjiva@ecrc.de (Sanjiva Prasad)
Organization: European Computer-Industry Research Centre, Munich
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 21:37:40 GMT

In article <JMC.93Jan2141039@SAIL.Stanford.EDU> jmc@cs.Stanford.EDU writes:
>I hear my 7 year old son shouting "Stop! Stop!" at his robot.  You
>might consider shouting at a toy robot a singularly futile exercise.
>However, the robot, manufactured in China for a Japanese company and
>sold at Radio Shack, uses voice recognition technology licensed from an
>American company.
>
>It just isn't very obedient when shouted at.
>
>A $25 prize is offered for the best posting in the next week viewing
>this development with alarm, i.e. children shouting at robots.

	"Speak Gently", tell your little boy, 
	When he shouts at his robot's steering.
	And to ask instead if it doesn't obey
	"R U R'd of 'earing?"

			- L. Carroll Capek

--
Sanjiva Prasad,  Guest Magus				E-mail: sanjiva@ecrc.de
European Computer Industry Research Centre		Off: +49 89 92 69 91 58
Arabellastrasse 17					Fax: +49 89 92 69 91 70
8000 Muenchen 81, Germany				Res: +49 89 16 33 59
From: gxs11@po.CWRU.Edu (Gary Stonum)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Dickinson (was Re: Paglia)
Date: 10 Jan 1993 01:47:51 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: gxs11@po.CWRU.Edu (Gary Stonum)
NNTP-Posting-Host: slc12.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, sanjiva@ecrc.de (Sanjiva Prasad) says:

>So what is a *good* Dickinson to read?  I know many 
>Americans consider her a goddess, so may I have a considered opinion?
>

Having written an entire book about her a coupla years back, I'm
naturally inclined to agree with the advice you've already got:
dip into the Collected Poems anywhere.  But given your bad experience
in school you may especially need innoculation against the wan.  And
tho I would not at all have thought of her as a goddess, I do think 
she is the single fiercest poet I have ever read, so here's a few
piercing poems to try:

	At half past three a single bird
	
	Behind me dips eternity

	Essential oils are wrung

	Four trees upon a solitary acre

	My life had stood a loaded gun

	I would not paint a picture

	It was not death for I stood up

	Renunciation is a piercing virtue

	Tell all the truth but tell it slant

	The duties of the wind are few


Gary Stonum
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: mnemonic@eff.org (Mike Godwin)
Subject: Re: The Wall Street Journal
Originator: mnemonic@eff.org
Organization: Electronic Frontier Foundation
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 18:47:29 GMT

In article <1ihmjfINNlb0@shelley.u.washington.edu> hoosiers@carson.u.washington.edu (Mary Loveless) writes:

>>Incidentally, I've been working on Wall Street since 1985, and with the 
>>exception of the book that Heather (obliquely) refers to (yes, there was 
>>a book reference), I've never heard anyone on the street use the "big 
>>swinging dick" expression.
>>Mark
>
>Somehow, I think Heather coined the term.

Although Heather is perfectly capable of coining such a descriptive term,
it comes from Michael Lewis's LIAR'S POKER. This book is well worth
reading, and I recommend it to r.a.b. readers.


--Mike





-- 
Mike Godwin,    |"I'm waiting for the one-man revolution
mnemonic@eff.org| The only one that's coming."
(617) 864-0665  |                           
EFF, Cambridge  |                   --Robert Frost 
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: mnemonic@eff.org (Mike Godwin)
Subject: Re: The Gold Bug Variations
Originator: mnemonic@eff.org
Organization: Electronic Frontier Foundation
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 20:20:33 GMT

In article <1ice4lINNf89@news.gac.edu> zaphod@dion.gac.edu (William Voelker) writes:
>I read this book over Christmas and found it to be one of the best-written  
>books in years.  Comments?  Comparisons? (I find it to be a 90's version  
>of _The_Recognitions_ by Wm. Gaddis)  

It is the first novel since Pynchon's novels that fully addresses how a
20th-century man's employment may be as much a source of his spiritual
growth as his love life or family life.

I think it is in some ways a better novel than THE RECOGNITIONS; one can
love Powers's characters in a way one can't quite love Gaddis's.


--Mike




-- 
Mike Godwin,    |"I'm waiting for the one-man revolution
mnemonic@eff.org| The only one that's coming."
(617) 864-0665  |                           
EFF, Cambridge  |                   --Robert Frost
From: jjh00@diag.amdahl.com (Joel Hanes)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: REQUEST: book title
Date: 5 Jan 93 00:54:04 GMT
Reply-To: jjh00@diag.amdahl.com
Distribution: usa
Organization: Amdahl Corporation  Sunnyvale California

In article <1993Jan4.224843.28153@iscnvx.lmsc.lockheed.com>, westphal@iscnvx.lmsc.lockheed.com (Dorothy Westphal) writes:
>Years ago I had a novel that dealt with time travel.
>
>The method was first total immersion in a setup simulating
>the place and period the traveler was aiming for, and eventually
>just "thinking" his way to that time while asleep. 

_Time_And_Again_, by Jack Finney

---
Joel Hanes
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: rjwill6@PacBell.COM (Rod Williams)
Subject: Re: Homophobia (really not about  Homeschooling)
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, California
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 18:08:55 GMT

> msmorris@watsci.UWaterloo.ca (Mike Morris) writes:
>
>I do think it in most cases (not all) morally wrong to discriminate in job
>hiring on the basis of the religious beliefs of the job applicant.
>I certainly agree with you that simply refusing to hire any fundies
>(at least for most jobs) would not only be morally wrong (because the
>religious beliefs are probably irrelevant) but stupid, insofar as
>it would deny one hiring the best applicant. But, *I* thought the point
>of having a right of free association was that one could go about making
>associations that even the democratic majority was certain were wrong, and
>there still would be no laws to say you couldn't.
>
>I was not talking about the wrongness of refusing to hire religious
>fundamentalists. I was talking about the essential criminality of
>having a law which says you can't make such a refusal.

You'll forgive, I hope, my irritation with your drawing
your principled line at adding sexual orientation to the
long-established anti-discrimination laws that protect
citizens from unfair treatment on account of their sex,
race, religion, disability, marital status, national
origin or veteran status (what have I left out?).  Unfair
treatment, both morally wrong and stupid, that
nevertheless happens every day.  Or perhaps you're
actively working to repeal those laws too?
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
rod williams -=- pacific bell -=- san ramon, ca -=- rjwill6@pacbell.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: mworley@mathcs.emory.edu (Meg Worley)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: ADDICTED READING OF COOKBOOKS ( WAS Re: LIKE WATER FOR CHOCOLATE)
Date: 4 Jan 1993 17:16:29 -0500
Organization: Emory University, Dept of Math and CS
NNTP-Posting-Host: emory.mathcs.emory.edu

In article <1993Jan4.200921.5516@netcom.com>, ekman@netcom.com (Crossly the Glad-Eyed Bear) writes:
> In article <1ia0nkINNgjt@shelley.u.washington.edu> hoosiers@carson.u.washington.edu (Mary Loveless) writes:
> >
> >I first became hooked on cookbook reading when, unable to cope with
> >*further* liveliness of the '60s in Inner City Detroit, my lover showed me
> >his copy of _The Joy of Cooking_, in which the recipe for cheese pie (as
> >best as I can recall) started with this startling phrase, "Our vile
> >tempered Swiss cook, Marguerite...."  I never did get the pie to come out
> >right, but I read the book from cover to cover looking for more little
> >tid-bits from the lives of Rombauer et al.
> 
> Precious little of that in _The Joy of Cooking_.  Try any of Elizabeth
> David's cookbooks, particularly _An Omelette and a Glass of Wine_.  You

I agree there.  I read Mary's post and dashed to page 227 of my
battered copy of the Rombauer classic (the one my father gave me
as a going-away prezzie when I moved to Japan, inscribed "The
Joy of Cooking to the Pearl of the Orient"), and she (Rombauer,
not Loveless, though she is too) is clever as promised.  I'm afraid
that it's about the only instance, however.

One of my favorites for reading is Margaret Rudkin's *Pepperidge
Farm Cookbook*.  It is a grand reminiscence of a childhood spent
making the cook's life a living hell.

Rage away,

meg


-- 

 Meg Worley 				Internet:  mworley@mathcs.emory.edu		
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: hhenderson@vax.clarku.edu
Subject: RE: Paglia (was: Cross-Writing)
Organization: Clark University
Date: 7 JAN 93 18:53:07 GMT

Mike Godwin wrote: 

>I've known folks who think rape is an ideology or social construct, so 
>that if you "cure" society, you could eliminate rape altogether. (Hence 
>the reference to "risk free" society.) Paglia takes the position that the 
>impulse to rape is constrained by society rather than created by it, and 
>that, because it is a function of very basic drives (sex and aggression), 
>neither rape nor date rape can ever wholly be eliminated. Moreover, she 
>says that male-female sexual and romantic interactions partake of a lot 
>more ambiguity than the "No Means No" ideology contemplates or allows. 
> 
>On both of these points, I think she's closer to the truth than the 
>post-Brownmiller rape theorists. 

Not only is she closer to the truth, but she is far more "empowering" to
women than most feminists are.   

Heather
HHENDERSON@vax.clarku.edu
Xref: sparky rec.arts.books:23964 misc.kids:31600 misc.wanted:10571 pa.wanted:214
From: littlec1@jaguar.uofs.edu (Chris Little)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,misc.kids,misc.wanted,pa.wanted
Subject: In search of Richard Scarry's "The Early Bird"
Date: 5 Jan 93 20:44:02 GMT
Followup-To: rec.arts.books
Organization: University of Scranton


I hope I'm posting in the right place.  I'm desperately seeking a
children's book which in not available new in the U.S.  It's
Richard Scarry's "The Early Bird".  I think it's out of print.
If anyone has one to sell, or knows where I might get it, I'd
be grateful for your help.

Thank you in advance.

--
Chris Little, Programmer/DBA                    University Computing Systems
                                                University of Scranton
  LITTLEC1@JAGUAR.UOFS.EDU                      Scranton, PA 18510
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: msmorris@watsci.UWaterloo.ca (Mike Morris)
Subject: Re: Homophobia
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1993 01:51:29 GMT

                                         Saturday, the 9th of January, 1993

Roger asks:
  Even if the discrimination kills?

Kills? Nonsense.

I said:
  And this coercive
  power (i.e. the governmental kind that always happens at the point of
  a gun) 

Roger says:
  Funny, I only saw ballot boxes being used in Colorado.  

I'm sorry, mate, but if an employer were to be sued for wrongful
termination because of discrimination, then there is a certain
coercive force that will be applied to that employer should
he disregard or disobey that law. Even down to dedicating a
statue in a public park, *every* piddling action of government
is built on a coercive force far more serious than the economic
coercion you are so fond of reifying.

  Yet the economic power of MANY managers not to hire you (see History, 
  World, Most of It) can kill, and often has.  It also has the effect 
  of nullifying by coercion most rights of those unfortunate enough
  not to be managers.

Well, I understand how the police and the military power of many
governments has often killed many people, but that many managers,
banding together not to hire people, have often killed I seem to have
missed in my study of history. I suppose you could provide some
examples of this, say, regarding blacks and Jews in the U.S. in the period
since the Civil War up until effective non-discrimination legislation
was first enacted? In round numbers, about how many were killed because
of unemployment resulting from such discrimination?

                        Mike Morris
                (msmorris@watsci.uwaterloo.ca)
From: mworley@mathcs.emory.edu (Meg Worley)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Stationery & diaries (was 1992 in Review)
Date: 8 Jan 1993 19:28:09 -0500
Organization: Emory University, Dept of Math and CS
NNTP-Posting-Host: emory.mathcs.emory.edu


I find that I can fulfill all the purposes of a journal,
other than general spleen-venting (and that's what 
on-the-scene friends are for, right?), by keeping
copies of my letters.

Because I pend somewhat more energy and time composing
them, and because I writwith the intent of not only
informing but also amusing the recpients, they are
rather entertaining to rd later on.

Raage away,

meg

-- 

 Meg Worley 				Internet:  mworley@mathcs.emory.edu
From: lmollett@lunatix.uucp (Laura Mollett)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Child molestation & celibacy (was: Paul Johnson (was Paglia)
Date: 12 Jan 93 17:56:30 GMT
Organization: Lexington Public Access Unix. -KY- (606) 255-9121

In article <1993Jan11.95736.10154@ms.uky.edu> fehr@ms.uky.edu (Jeff Davis) writes:
>I'm sorry for the practice and the cover-up by the Church. It's dismaying.
>But, for the life of me, I can't fathom how a vow of Chastity promotes
>such a practice. One can believe in a pneumatic idea of sex, that if you
>squish sexuality down here, it will defy you and bulge out there, so to 
>speak. I don't, and I don't think that the recent out cropping of
>child abuse cases among the clergy is proof of such a proposition. I suspect
>that the demands of chastity in an age where belief is ridiculed may
>produce more stress than the clergy can normally bear up under. Should the
>Church bow to the Age? No, although I think the practice [of celibacy] should 
>never have been begun and should be abandoned, although not for the reasons
>that are normally cited.
>
I don't particularly agree that a vow of Chastity promotes child molestation,
but there is an implication in this comment that molestation by priests        
(et al) is somehow a _new_ invention.  Examination of some of the transcripts
of medieval witch trials (especially in the accusations by children) leads
to the impression that perhaps molestation was at least as common in that
period.  While this isn't statistical proof (i.e. I have no idea how many 
cases of sexual abuse there were medievally as compared to now), nonetheless,
I think it at least questions the idea that the clergy is responding to their
belief being ridiculed in a way that it would not have been in another time.
By the way, these transcripts also indicate that sexual abuse might have been
committed by Nuns towards their young charges as well as by priests.

(Linking to another thread, if rape is a biological inclination in males, why
do females rape?  Would Pagalia claim they were acting out male roles?  Just
curious.)

I don't have my references handy at the moment, but I can provide sources and
quotes later, if necessary.
				Laura Mollett
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: miner@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: A book for readaholics
Date: 8 Jan 93 07:35:40 CST
Organization: University of Kansas Academic Computing Services

In 1950 Farrar, Straus published Holbrook Jackson's _The Anatomy of
Bibliomania_, an interesting work written in the style of Burton's
_The Anatomy of Melancholy_.  AMS reprinted it in 1979.

But of course, none of you will have time to read it...

-Ken
-- 
miner@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu | Graecis ac barbaris, sapientibus et
opinions are my own      | insipientibus debitor sum
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: Homophobia
Originator: news@nimaster
Reply-To: roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig)
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1993 23:53:45 GMT

In article <C0LxsD.6J1@watserv2.uwaterloo.ca> msmorris@watsci.UWaterloo.ca (Mike Morris) writes:

>My fundamental disagreement with Roger, however, stands. I do
>not think that law ought to be used positively to enforce
>non-discrimination in employment. 

Even if the discrimination kills?

>A Right to Life is a statement
>about the essential criminality of unjust killing, not a coercive
>commandment that other human beings have a duty to go out of their
>way to keep you alive (or to give you a livelihood). 

Sez you.  Somehow human behavior over the millenia has construed it
differently.  Where do you suppose this Right comes from?

>And this coercive
>power (i.e. the governmental kind that always happens at the point of
>a gun) 

Funny, I only saw ballot boxes being used in Colorado.  

>I understand to be much more dangerous than the economic power
>of any single manager not to hire you.

Yet the economic power of MANY managers not to hire you (see History, 
World, Most of It) can kill, and often has.  It also has the effect 
of nullifying by coercion most rights of those unfortunate enough
not to be managers.

Roger

Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: mnemonic@eff.org (Mike Godwin)
Subject: Re: Het Boys (was: Homophobia)
Originator: mnemonic@eff.org
Organization: Electronic Frontier Foundation
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 20:44:16 GMT

In article <8JAN93.19331032@vax.clarku.edu> hhenderson@vax.clarku.edu writes:
>Steve Dyer writes:
>
>>  No, it just means he's a clueless "I've got mine" white Protestant het boy
>
>Het Boys.  Hmmm.  Manny, Moe, and Jack?

And the Hets just keep on comin'!


--Mike



-- 
Mike Godwin,    |"I'm waiting for the one-man revolution
mnemonic@eff.org| The only one that's coming."
(617) 864-0665  |                           
EFF, Cambridge  |                   --Robert Frost
From: dougm@hal.com (Doug Moran)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Meet Camille Paglia!
Date: 12 Jan 93 17:56:57 GMT
Reply-To: dougm@hal.com (Doug Moran)
Organization: HaL Computer Systems, Inc.; Campbell, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: gizmo.hal.com
In-reply-to: houk@athena.cs.uga.edu (Mr Congeniality Of 1967)

I read this article, and all I could think was, what would happen if
Camille Paglia and Robert Bly were forced to spend an entire week
together -- four days in the city, three in the country.

Truly, the mind boggles.
-- 
    Doug Moran        |  You're a mean one, Mr. Grinch;
   dougm@hal.com      |  you're a nasty, wasty skunk.
 {...}!hal.com!dougm  |  Your heart is full of unwashed socks,
 HaL Computer Systems |  your soul is full of gunk, Mr. Grinch.
Xref: sparky rec.arts.books:24440 sci.logic:2557
From: gudeman@cs.arizona.edu (David Gudeman)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,sci.logic
Subject: Re: Doctrines of Maybe: 7 truth values
Date: 9 Jan 93 19:52:35 GMT
Followup-To: rec.arts.books
Organization: U of Arizona CS Dept, Tucson

In article  <1ihu90INN42t@morrow.stanford.edu> Francis Muir writes:
]Ian Heavens writes:
]
]When I was in Papua, the people I worked with had the following numbering
]system:
]
]	One
]	Two
]	Many
]
]I can see an advantage to such a simple numbering system and a multi-
]valued logic.

I suspect that you are talking about the language's system of plurals,
not their numbers.  English plurals have the "number" system

  One    (object)
  Many   (objects)

Some other languages have additional plural forms for two or even
three objects.

I once heard a sub-lecture by a linguistics professor where she gave a
list of mistaken reports based on this sort of confusion.  And
although I don't recall for certain that Papuan was one of the
languages, I suspect it was since the professor was interested in the
languages of New Guinea.  She also claimed (as I recall from many
years ago) that there were no known cases of a language that does not
have a reasonably complex counting system.
-- 
					David Gudeman
gudeman@cs.arizona.edu
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: kamorgan@athena.mit.edu (Keith Morgan)
Subject: Re: Books I Got For Xmas
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 05:11:35 GMT

Mike Godwin writes:

I note that on another system I participate in (the WELL), there is
much *more* questioning of male writers' ability to write from a woman's
perspective than there is of the converse.

	I would imagine that there are more 'writers' at this moment
than at any other comparable time in history, and given that men have
been in the majority in ages past, perhaps the criticism of a man
being able to write from a woman's perspective is just a transitory
and not wholly unexpected event. A matter of adjustment, or the wheel
turning as it were. Indeed, perhaps the growing controversy about
cultural or racial appropriation is just the latest phase of this
battle. Perhaps some time in the 22nd century when we have argued
every possibility - is it proper for an Inuit bachelor to write about
Circassian transsexual vegetarians - then the aliens will come to set
off another round of this.

	Keith
--

Keith Morgan kamorgan@athena.mit.edu
In the end nothing could be said of his work except that it was
preposterous and true and totally unacceptable. Edward Whittemore