From: root@dogear.spk.wa.us (Bob Kirkpatrick   )
Newsgroups: alt.child-support,alt.dads-rights,alt.parents-teens,misc.kids
Subject: Re: Hillary Clinton - Family Values?
Date: 31 Jul 92 17:03:36 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Dog Ear'd Systems of Spokane, WA

Mic.Oettinger@bbs.oit.unc.edu (Mic Oettinger) writes:

> My views are NOT flames, they come from my heart, and what she said was a
> generalization. Nobody can tell me that the reasons for having children
> are the same in all situations. I did not mean to cut her down as an
> individual. That was bad judgment on my part, and I am sorry for that. At
> the time I was just furious, because in generalizing she was talking about
> ME as well as other wonderful single moms I know who I could never imagine
> saying those are the reasons they have kids.
> 
> My reasons for having a child? It was an "accident", although I really
> doubt someone who really didn't want a child would allow an accident,
> except in situations where they were using birth control but got pregnant
> anyway, or were raped (of course). To tell you the truth Dan, I longed for
> a child to love and care for, all by myself. I had lots of love to give,
> but no one to give it to. As I've always said I was born to be a mom, and
> I love it. For all you men complaining away about money, think of this:
> About 2/3 of my monthly earnings goes straight to my son's welfare, and I
> wouldn't have it any other way. Maybe some of you can tell me how you feel
> about your children, rather than griping about money all the time.

Now wait a minute.

I'm a man, and I complain about the child-support laws which exist today.
I complain about money --to use your terminology.

I complain because the system is inequitable: It is income-based versus
need-based, and not only that, it imparts a standard based on general
incomes for locations to which they don't or can't apply.

I complain that the money issues are driven in the courts by sexist
attitudes which reflect (on the whole) female wants versus objective and
pragmatic approaches to the economics of child-rearing. I complain 
because these attitudes extend into the areas of not only custody, but
visitation too.

So, I'm one of "all those men who complain about money," to use your
terminology. Mic, for someone who got furious over a generalization,
you certainly weild generalization like a sword. You've made ME angry.

Look at what you said later in your post:

> I agree with you Dan, you are very much correct, but that is not the way
> she put it. Obviously, you put more thought into your message than she
> did. Bottom line: being a mom myself, she insulted me by not including
> enough words like "most" or "some" or "many".

I'll ask you to inspect your own attitude. The statements you're making
here elevates single-moms and says nothing about single-dads. We men
make pretty damn good parents too. While you're at it, I'll ask you to
give some thought to NCP fathers, like me, who are VERY MUCH an important
part of their kids lives, and consider the needs and even wants of their 
children as very important.

Yes, I complain about the money. You bet I do. The laws on basic support
grants allows (in my state) for 45% of my gross to be tapped. Which, BTW
is what they get from me. However, the law also allows for consideration
of other elements, like my new wife's income for 'Extraordinary Expenses'
above and beyond the basic support award. That translates into my wife
paying support for kids that aren't even hers. Yes, Mic, I do complain
about money. You bet your ears I do. I complain because the total amount
of the award --base plus extraordinary-- amounts to 68% of my gross. On
top of that, I have the kids a MINIMUM of 1/4th of the year, and have
to deal with the costs of a home large enough for them to come to, the
food they eat when they're here, the costs of the activities, clothing,
transportation --all of the same expenses you face as a single mom. The
one difference is that I don't have anyone augmenting MY family income
to help defray the costs --like custodial parents with support awards
do.

But let's look a little beyond that, Mic. My kids go to summer school
to study art and music, play little league baseball, go to basketball
camp, swimming lessons, and a hoarde of other things. I help pay for
these things, provide transportation, and am involved in the activities
as well. Sure, I do it because I love my kids and I want to. But the
point is, I DO do these things, and contribute dollars ABOVE the order
to do it.

And I still complain about money. I complain that I have to pay taxes on
the money I pay for support, but that money is tax-free to my ex. I
bitch about a lot of things related to the state-imparted economic
assessments made against me. I complain that I had to pay for my ex's
lawyer every damn time we went to court --to get an increase, or to try
to fight an increase.

I complain because the costs of the support system --no less the support
itself, drove me and my new wife into bankruptcy while my ex was able
to buy a new (and pretty expensive house). I complain because the bank
took my new wife's car --that she bought with her own money before we
were married-- in the bankruptcy. Not to mention a number of other items
which included the house she owned and had been paying on for eight years.
I complain that the whole situation caused me to go on public assistance,
and that the amount of support didn't waver a bit --staying at the same
amount it was set at. The amount, by the way, was 220% of my income at
that time.

So Mic, the next time you want to complain and get angry over generalization,
you might give thought to your own perspectives, and the damage that they
do to people  -- in the same way generalizations damaged you.

Yes, I complain about the money. So would you if you saw it from another
perspective. One which didn't generalize and make assumptions based only
in your limited scope of understanding. I say that to you, and I say that
to those who want to give up their choice not to make kids, and then want
the choice to refuse responsibility for the child they made. You opinion
and theirs deal in different circumstances, but they really aren't that
different in that they ignore realities of life in favor of self-indulgence.


---
Bob Kirkpatrick  --  Dog Ear'd Systems of Spokane, WA
root@dogear.spk.wa.us           bobk@dogear.spk.wa.us
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