From: miller@hmsp04.wg3.waii.com (Griff Miller X7114)
Newsgroups: sci.environment
Subject: Re: Concern For Ozone Depletion Clear, Knowledge of CFCs Mostly
Date: 30 Dec 92 15:11:18 GMT
Organization: Western Geo. - Div of Western Atlas Intn'l Inc., Houston, TX

In article <1992Dec29.202248.21173@en.ecn.purdue.edu> ghg@en.ecn.purdue.edu (George Goble) writes:

>Yep, it is R-134a, or HFC-134a or tetrafluoroethane.  Just the ones
>shipping to Texas I think (this was last summer).  

Yeah, I remember something like 10% were slated to have R-134a systems.

>The Lafayette
>Indiana Ford dealer, wants $1000 for a 30lb cylinder of R-134a.

That's ridiculous. Is there any reason why it should be so high? I mean,
any good reason? Is R-134a that expensive to manufacture?

>PAG oil is destroyed
>by trace amounts of "chlorides", which includes Freon-12, and "sludges"
>created in Freon-12 based systems.  "Flush", which is probably R-11
>or R-113 (used to clean up systems in repair), also attacks the PAG
>oil. 

So forget ever retrofitting R-134a into an old R12 system.

>1% flush remaining in a R-134a system usually results in compressor
>failure in < 1 week due to oil breakdown.  R-134a systems have no
>"approved" flush I know of.. (why doesn't somebody try Isopentane?)..

You're kidding (but I'm afraid you're not). You mean they are making
AC systems that they haven't figured out a way to flush? Egad.

Why do you think isopentane would work?

>Now, you have a R-134a system, and you have a line/hose break and
>dump the charge.  Air gets in, 20 min later your PAG oil is water
>logged and ruined... now what..  The oil is volatile, so pulling
>a vacuum on it will probably just boil the oil instead of getting
>the water out, there is no "approved" flush (I bet isopentane would
>work), so you cannot flush out the old wet oil, so just put in some
>more oil, and maybe a new drier (will be overcome by wet oil), and
>charge 'er back up (for $300).. and go....
>
>Wonder how long that wet system will last..?? 2-3 months?

If that long. Then you have a compressor grenade on you and now
you've got REAL problems.

If what you say about R-134a is true then I see a farce far greater
than the first GM R4 compressors in the making.

>Wonder how long ANY  NEW (non retrofitted) R-134a A/C will last once
>the local mechanics try to service it?  As John DeArmond would say,
>"Can't sticker shock happen twice [on the same car]"?

I don't mean to be obtuse (again) but who is this DeArmond fellow?

>I have heard several people in both the refrigerator and the Automotive
>A/C industry, talk about rumors of manufacturers reducing warranties
>on NEW R-134a equipment, they are scared of it.

Oh, now there's a logical reaction. Gee, how about halting further
production of R-134a systems until the problems can be worked out,
instead of passing known junk on to the consumer? What a waste of
everybody's time.

>I have also heard reports from IVY Tech in INDY, that mechanics are
>getting skin burns after working on R-134a systems.  The PAFT

To me, the cons of R-134a far outweigh the pros. It's ONLY advantage
is that its ODF is 0. Why can't somebody use GHG12 or something similar
in new cars? It's ODF is practically nil, yes?
--
Griff Miller > miller@monarch.wg3.waii.com < use this for email.

          *** My opinions are mine, not Western's. ***

   "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge, but 
    fools despise wisdom and discipline."   - Proverbs 1:7 
Xref: sparky sci.environment:13980 talk.politics.misc:65520 alt.activism:19880