HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: GUBERT@UKCC.UKY.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.words-l
Subject: The South
Date: 14 Oct 92 18:47:17 GMT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Comments:     Resent-From: GUBERT@UKCC.UKY.EDU
Comments:     Originally-From: Entropy Warrior <AUSBROOK@UCS.INDIANA.EDU>
Comments:     Warning -- original Sender: tag was WORDS-L@UGA

----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>> Washington certainly is part of the south, however you slice it up.
>
>I didn't say "the south."  I said "The South."  Washington is no more part
>of The South than most of Florida is.
>   --Natalie (maynor@ra.msstate.edu)
It is.
-Mka
-K
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tain't, suh.

JAG
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.words-l
Date:         Tue, 13 Oct 1992 05:48:36 CDT
From:         "(Natalie Maynor)" <maynor@RA.MSSTATE.EDU>
Subject:      RE: Presidential politics
Comments: To: WORDS-L@uga.cc.uga.edu

> Notice how Clinton slimed around on that one during the debate--he added taxes
> on foreign companies when Bush pointed out--without sufficient enthusiasm,

I remember his mentioning taxes on foreign companies but don't remember having
the impression that he was "sliming around" when he said it.  Can somebody
post that part of the transcript for our review?  (I'm asking that not because
I think it will prove that he said good things -- I'm asking it because I'm
genuinely curious now about the sequence of comments.)

>stupid or lying about his tax proposals.  You all pick which it is--and when
>the 36% tax on the rich hits you, well, you'll know you're rich, I guess--
>although it probably hadn't occurred to you recently--and you probably will not
>have thought that Uncle Bill meant YOU.

I know little about economics or about large amounts of money and thus
have no answer to the question of the alleged discrepancies.  But I keep
wondering why he's saying these things if they are so obviously wrong that
ordinary people (e.g., people on WORDS-L) see through them.  Even if Clinton
is stupid, surely he must have some economic advisors somewhere who understand
how things work.  Btw, I can assure you that whichever version of the figures
is real, the tax won't hit me.  :-)  Nor will it hit most people in the
academic world -- except administrators.

>Uncle Ross, now, speaks *straight* poop, whether you think it is poop or not.
>And even if he too is lying about stuff, better the liars we know are lying
>than those we don't?  Skepticism is a very healthy thing--but it is not
>skepticism to choose the proven fakes over those one merely suspects of fakery.

I don't understand.  If we don't know he's lying (see "even if he too is
lying about stuff"), how does "better the liars we know are lying" fit?
Maybe I haven't had enough coffee yet.  (My first pot of coffee was
interesting -- I went to pour some into the cup, wondered why it was
clear colored, and realized that I had put in the filter, put in the
water, and forgotten the coffee.)
   --Natalie (maynor@ra.msstate.edu)
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Date:         Wed, 7 Oct 1992 08:07:16 -0500
From:         Anne Burton Harwell <harwell@TENET.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Respite from the Kiddies
Comments: To: English Language Discussion Group <WORDS-L@uga.cc.uga.edu>

On Wed, 7 Oct 1992 torkel@SICS.SE wrote:

>   Haha. I am beginning to detest that .gif. No, but you may be able to
> guess what I was jailed for if I tell you that I did three short separate
> stints, amounting to 5 months in all.

Easy one. Serial murder in Los Angeles.

-abh
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Date:         Fri, 9 Oct 1992 09:59:19 EDT
From:         Evelyn Duncan <R3EJD%AKRONVM.BITNET@uga.cc.uga.edu>
Subject:      Re: Clinton's letter - skeleton? - nah...

Well, John, I don't know where Bill is, but Hillary's due here at noon.

Evelyn
From: ktw@MHWPA.ATT.COM
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.words-l
Subject: Re: For Le Pig
Date: 16 Oct 92 15:28:00 GMT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Original-From: mhwpa!ktw (Kenneth T Wolman +1 201 564 2866)
Comments: To: English Language Discussion Group <WORDS-L@uga.cc.uga.edu>

Oh my god....  Ausbrook, you're making me remember all these really
terrible stories....

These two somewhat slow-witted country boys meet on a backwoods road.
The first is peddling a really expensive racing bicycle.  The second
gapes in astonishment.

"Where'ja get that there fancied-up contraption, Zeke?"  [I warned you
this is terrible...]

"Strange ta tell," replies Zeke.  "Ah was a-walking down the road,
mindin' my own business, and I stopped to sit under a shade tree, when
along comes this beee-yoo-tiful young lady on this here bicycle.  Was
wearing only a pair 'a' panties.  Waaal, she sees me, and stops the
bike.  She gets off, walks into the bushes, and waves at me ta follow.
When Ah does, she's a-layin' in the bushes, with her panties off, an'
she sez ta me, `Farmboy, y'all take anythin' y'all want!'"

The other guy is beside himself.  "Wadja do?!  Wadja do?!" he cries.
The first farmboy, Zeke, looks very surprised.

"Why, I took the bicycle, of course.  Her panties'd never fit me."

Ken
From: KYL120@URIACC.URI.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.words-l
Subject: Re: LATER
Date: 15 Oct 92 17:11:06 GMT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU

>Posted on 14 Oct 1992 at 06:23:23 by Uriacc Mailer (002033)
>
>Re:  LATER
>
>Date:         Wed, 14 Oct 1992 05:21:41 CDT
>Reply-To:     English Language Discussion Group <WORDS-L@UGA.BITNET>
>From:         "(Natalie Maynor)" <maynor@RA.MSSTATE.EDU>
>that the average age is somewhere around 40.  Now that Adam is gone
>(only temporarily, thank goodness), do we have any college students left?

I'm a senior ar URI.

>   --Natalie (maynor@ra.msstate.edu)
Lisa
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Original_To:  JNET%"words-l@uga"
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.words-l
Date:         Sun, 11 Oct 1992 22:26:00 MST
From:         "JOHN WHAT'S-THE-M-FOR? WILLIAMS"
 <WILLIAMS%MC.BITNET@uga.cc.uga.edu>
Subject:      Re: The Marked One

Ruth the Ever-Helpful notes:
>Looks like you're trying to send without tell your machine to use SMTP%"
No, I'm trying to tell my machine to bugger off to back to when it used
to flippin' WORK!!!!
>               Some Bitner stuff has to be gatewayed through an Internet
>node.  If all else fails, ask a sysop.:-)
If we had one, I would.  I *am*, however, going to risk all tomorrow in the
attempt to find some-bloody-one with a room-temperature IQ down there who
knows WHAT'S GOING ON, and will pay me _some_ attention...
See what happens when you give all the competent people early retirement
w/o any provision for replacement???  8-(  Ah, I just *know* they'll ask me
"What do you need it for?"  Oh, sure, go ahead, turn me into an alcoholic so
I can take advantage of our substance-abuse program - that's what you idiots
want, isn't it???  Jesus wept...

John, sadder but in no wise no wiser, W.
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.words-l
Date:         Thu, 8 Oct 1992 03:18:25 MED
From:         "(Graham Toal)" <gtoal@STACK.URC.TUE.NL>
Subject:      Re: Aha!
Comments: To: English Language Discussion Group <WORDS-L@uga.cc.uga.edu>

Oh right - that was it.  Remove the ../h/ from the webster: line
in that case.
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Date:         Sun, 11 Oct 1992 10:31:19 -0500
From:         Nancy Harwood <harwood@TENET.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Deafening Silences (was Re: Amtrak quiz)
Comments: To: English Language Discussion Group <WORDS-L@uga.cc.uga.edu>
Comments: cc: Multiple recipients of list WORDS-L <WORDS-L@uga.cc.uga.edu>

>     All the plumbing seems to be in working order, Nancy.  Is it
>     conceivable that people ... just ... don't ... have ... anything
>     to say?    --brad

*This* group?  You are kidding, right?  What does occur to me is
that...maybe they...have *lives*?
ndh (who wants to have a life someday when she gets over having hayfever)
From: gtoal@CURSCI.CO.UK (Graham Toal)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.words-l
Subject: Re: RICHH MISSES HIS BIG CHANCE--BUT FINDS ANOTHER
Date: 16 Oct 92 23:58:55 GMT
Organization: Current Science Tel: +44 71 323 0323 Fax: +44 71 580 1938
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Comments: To: Words-L and the Bandwidth Hogs <words-l@uga.cc.uga.edu>

Do you think ri<cough> is tweaking his followup line just to annoy us,
or is this one of the leftovers from ages ago when I *said* that we'd
get followups for years and no-one believed me? ...

G
From: 185422285@WILD.UCIS.VILL.EDU ((Alec D. Plotkin))
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.words-l
Subject: Re: LATER
Date: 15 Oct 92 14:09:00 GMT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Comments: To: WORDS-L@uga.cc.uga.edu

>Evenlyn comments:
>>On Wed, 14 Oct 1992 09:39:04 EDT Rita Marie Rouvalis said:
>>>
>>>	Huh?  Who on this list is still in college?  I mean, except
>>>for all the professors.  Lisa, you may be the only one!
>>>
>>>Rita
>>
>>No, she's not.

>    Doesn't Alec go to Villanova?

>Joan

I work for Villanova Univ. I manage a lab for our school of Commerce and
Finance. I wish I still went to school,

later

alec
From: ap290@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ruth M. Hanschka)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.words-l
Subject: Re: Let's pretend
Date: 16 Oct 1992 19:59:32 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: ap290@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ruth M. Hanschka)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, TRAVEN@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU (Blue eyes cryin' in the rain) says:

>Could you folks pretend that today's my birthday?  I am hugely in need of
>cheery words and positive vibes.
Want Giggles to send you a Birthday <present>?:-)  And maybe some of those
candles that don't blow out?  The weather around here would be enough to
depress anyone.  Just remember, no matter how lousy it is outside, it's
better out there than in the 24-hour study room!  
>
>way down in the dumps, and it has nothing to do with Wednesday's 9th inning,
I'm down in the depths, on the 90th floor......With a million neon rainbows
burning below me...and a thousand yellow taxis rasing a roar...I'm deserted
and depressed in my regal eagle's nest.  I'm down in the dpeths, on the90th
floor...
[now imagine me, in a floor-length velvet dress, singing that - with my voice 
you'll either be cracking up or running for the emergency exit!]

Ruth
leave 'em luffing
 
-- 
		###	Ruth Hanschka, the Nethead    ###
			- ap290@cleveland.freenet.edu
	      Where anything can happen, and it usually does
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Mailer: UVa PCMail 1.7.1
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.words-l
Date:         Tue, 13 Oct 1992 13:23:56 EDT
From:         "Jonathan Lord" <jml4s@UVA.PCMAIL.VIRGINIA.EDU>
Subject: Re: vaccimulgence
Comments: To: English Language Discussion Group <WORDS-L@uga.cc.uga.edu>

JML4s@Virginia.edu / University of Virginia Health Sciences Library
Box 234 / University of Virginia Health Sciences Center
Charlottesville, Virginia  22908
From: ALILESTE@IDBSU.IDBSU.EDU (Dan Lester)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.words-l
Subject: Re: WWHOMWTV - III
Date: 16 Oct 92 17:41:14 GMT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Comments: To: English Language Discussion Group <WORDS-L@uga.cc.uga.edu>
              15 Oct 1992 19:03:04 CDT from <maynor@RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

On Thu, 15 Oct 1992 19:03:04 CDT Natalie Maynor said:
>Dan:  Have you sent some clambake pictures to Akio yet?

no, i'll ashamedly admit that we haven't sent ANY pictures to ANYbody yet...
maybe with Christmas cards?

dan
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X-Delivery-Notice:  SMTP MAIL FROM does not correspond to sender.
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.words-l
Date:         Thu, 8 Oct 1992 00:06:00 EDT
From:         gilbert smith <N567126@NCSUADM.ACS.NCSU.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Delicate creature
Comments: To: English Language Discussion Group <WORDS-L@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>

> Greetings,
>
> I made the mistake of sending Mary a copy of my earlier post to the list.
> She has issued this reply:
>
> Well I guess I best sign off I'm so exhausted from all this computer
> activity.   I'll probably take a long nap, order carryout, and get
> a massage to deal with all the stress of these communications.
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^
> Your loving and ever so delicate wife,
>
> Mary

Oh boooooyyyyy!  Somebody is in RTN.  I want to know *where* and
from *whom* she plans to get this massage.  Do you *let* your wife
do things like this?
--ggs (hoping things don't get <out of control>....)
From: harwell@BANDW.PANAM.EDU ((Bandwidth Pig))
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.words-l
Subject: Re: VP debate
Date: 14 Oct 92 19:16:07 GMT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Comments:     Warning -- original Sender: tag was aharwell@PANAM1.PANAM.EDU
Comments: To: English Language Discussion Group <WORDS-L@uga.cc.uga.edu>

>Virginia.  During the War of the Southern Rebellion, DC was the

Ahem. That's more properly referred to as The War of Northern Aggression.

-abh
From: AUSBROOK@UCS.INDIANA.EDU (Entropy Warrior)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.words-l
Subject: Re: "Grow" the economy?
Date: 16 Oct 92 15:16:15 GMT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU

>We don't have any problem growing plants
>so why not grow the economy.
>
>Marilyn

Inch by inch, row by row . . .

-K

-Mka
I always wondered about the bold zeugma in "plants and equipment."
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Date:         Wed, 7 Oct 1992 22:48:00 CDT
From:         "Stephen H. Karlson 753-6980 (815)"
 <TA0SHK1%NIU.BITNET@uga.cc.uga.edu>
Subject: Re: There *is* a god . . .

> Is it my empty <dense card> again, or am I correct that I did not
> <make myself clear> about the meaning of "There *is* a god"?

Well, I figured it out, but Bayla's rejoinder has a certain style to
it.  Besides, you might even get the NEA to spring for a celebration
of one of the indigenous cultures so cruelly destroyed by the
Columbus encounter.

BTW, is what a Wake Forest grad told me true: If you can't go to
college, you can always go to State?

Steve Karlson

The cheesehead stands alone.
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Date:         Fri, 9 Oct 1992 14:34:06 EDT
Comments:     To: English Language Discussion Group <WORDS-L@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>
Comments:     Resent-From: GUBERT@UKCC.UKY.EDU
Comments:     Originally-From: gilbertsmith <N567126@NCSUADM.ACS.NCSU.EDU>
Comments:     Warning -- original Sender: tag was WORDS-L@UGA
From:         GUBERT@UKCC.UKY.EDU
Subject:      Re: Clinton's letter and stuff

----------------------------Original message----------------------------
The mind <reels> at what this might have been.  Details, please.
--ggs (always wanting the *complete* story, not just the fraggets...)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Is this why you're the colpleat storyteller -- even if you have to make
up the 'details'?

JAG
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Date:         Thu, 8 Oct 1992 11:46:24 +1000
From:         LNCJB@WOMBAT.NEWCASTLE.EDU.AU
Subject:      Re: gas tax
Comments: To: WORDS-L@uga.cc.uga.edu

AARGH! The situation is even worse..... I forgot to take into account that
the Australian dollar is only worth 3/4 of the US dollar on the international
money market. :-(

Carolyn
From: EL406041@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.words-l
Subject: Re: Human Communications Research
Date: 11 Oct 92 22:45:24 GMT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Comments: To: words-l@uga.cc.uga.edu

Posted on 11 Oct 1992 at 17:52:06 by (Natalie Maynor)
>What are "relationally positive directions"?

What this article says is that up till now, CMC has been deemed
relationally neutral--that relationships don't improve, develop,
worsen, or indeed change in any way via CMC.

What this article also says is that they showed that people can
learn about each other's personalities, develop feelings of 'groupness',
and learn to accomplish things in much the same way as an FTF group.

That is, they can be Words-L.  What this means is that one *can* learn
social skills on the net, much as one does FTF.  The implication is, of
course, that, as anyone who was at the clambake knows, net relationships
are real ones.

Karen
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.words-l
Date:         Sun, 11 Oct 1992 09:09:23 CDT
From:         "(Natalie Maynor)" <maynor@RA.MSSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Good News from Adam
Comments: To: WORDS-L@uga.cc.uga.edu

That *IS* good news -- especially the part about connectivity.  First
things first.  E-connectivity is far more important than mere matters of
money for food and shelter.
   --Natalie (maynor@ra.msstate.edu)
     behind in mail again because of invasion of house guests...
     MSU 14, Auburn 7 -- with MSU's 3rd-string quarterback since #1 is
     out for the season and #2 got hurt early in last night's game...
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Date:         Wed, 7 Oct 1992 21:23:59 -0500
From:         Doris Smith <dorisann@TENET.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Webster's online
Comments: To: English Language Discussion Group <WORDS-L@uga.cc.uga.edu>
Comments: cc: Multiple recipients of list WORDS-L <WORDS-L@uga.cc.uga.edu>

>
> Why does list mail tonight remind me of conversations in Eudora Welty's
> short stories?

Because there are so many streams of consciousness floating around onscreen?
doris
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.words-l
Date:         Wed, 7 Oct 1992 23:00:00 CDT
From:         "Stephen H. Karlson 753-6980 (815)"
 <TA0SHK1%NIU.BITNET@uga.cc.uga.edu>
Subject:      Re: surplus cadets

> Although I am an avowed liberal and am generally opposed to
> regimented thought ...

The exception is, of course, repeating liberal cliches.

What's your next move?

Steve Karlson

The cheesehead stands alone.
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.words-l
Date:         Tue, 13 Oct 1992 06:41:46 CDT
From:         Bandwidth Pig <aharwell@PANAM1.PANAM.EDU>
Subject:      Re: All aboard AUStrak (was gas tax)
Comments: To: WORDS-L@uga.cc.uga.edu

>PS. One of the girls told me that all white people smell like sour milk. :-)

...and all this time I thought we were supposed to smell like rotten beef.

-abh
yum yum
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.words-l
Date:         Sat, 10 Oct 1992 10:45:00 CDT
From:         "Stephen H. Karlson 753-6980 (815)"
 <TA0SHK1%NIU.BITNET@uga.cc.uga.edu>
Subject:      Re: Racist and sexist economics

> Was there a big conference or something?  Because NPR said this AM
> that 600 economists endorsed Clinton's economic proposals. This
> smacks vaguely of 9 out of 10 doctors...

... smoked but didn't inhale??? :-)  The big economics conference is
in Anaheim, Cal. January 4-7, 1993.  For what it's worth, there are
well over 660 members of the American Economic Association (I think
there are 10,000 economics professors at institutions of higher
learning).  I also note that nobody asked me or any of my colleagues
to endorse the proposals.  Some of us would, others would not.

The latest issue of _Reason_ has an article on the Marrou ticket.
The vp nominee is Nancy Lord.

Steve Karlson
From: bsinger@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Bayla Singer)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.words-l
Subject: Re: Thermodynamics
Date: 10 Oct 92 00:21:59 GMT
Organization: Popular Pedantry

Karen Kay has the temerity to ask:

>What is the second law of thermodynamics?

--the way I heard, the first law is "you can't win," the second law is
"you always lose," and the third is "you can't leave the game, either."
 
>
>Oh yes, and while you are at it, I would appreciate a quick explanation
>of the difference between classical mechanics and thermodynamics

In classical mechanics, it's at least theoretically possible to make
a perpetual-motion machine. (I think ...).  


>
>I knew I should have bought a pet physicist....
>
>Karen
>who wishes she were in sunny Spain w/ Torkel, drinking white sangria.

--bayla, who wishes... well, never mind what she wishes.
From: EL406041@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.words-l
Subject: Re: Debate
Date: 16 Oct 92 16:57:53 GMT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Comments: To: words-l@uga.cc.uga.edu

Posted on 16 Oct 1992 at 01:25:24 by (Rashmi)
>I wasn't very impressed with the moderator, she giggled too much.

She is so serious when she does the news, so I really noticed this too.
I liked the question she asked at the end about a woman/minority presidential
candidate.  George Bush was an ass about Barbara. "There's my candidate!"

Karen
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Date:         Sat, 10 Oct 1992 17:06:17 -0500
From:         Nancy Harwood <harwood@TENET.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Good News from Adam
Comments: To: English Language Discussion Group <WORDS-L@uga.cc.uga.edu>
Comments: cc: Multiple recipients of list WORDS-L <WORDS-L@uga.cc.uga.edu>

Congratulations on the new job, Adam!  Hope you like it...it's good to
hear from you again.
ndh
From: harwell@BANDW.PANAM.EDU ((Bandwidth Pig))
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.words-l
Subject: Re: VP debate
Date: 14 Oct 92 22:44:04 GMT
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Comments: To: English Language Discussion Group <WORDS-L@uga.cc.uga.edu>

>   An' another theeng -- you can have your senoritas, but you batter
>   stay away from Rita an' -abh, cause I gat my ojos on them!!!

Joe,

I don't know how you all do things at El Paso Community College, I'll thank
you to keep your ojos to yourself until we know each other better.

Rita can speak for herself. She always does.

-abh
From: ALILESTE@IDBSU.IDBSU.EDU (Dan Lester)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.words-l
Subject: vmi and the courts
Date: 15 Oct 92 21:36:06 GMT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Comments: To: All fellow wordslers <words-l@uga.cc.uga.edu>

this weeks Chronicle of Higher Education has good coverage of the VMI
case, pages A3 and A22.  Both pages have photos of some of our VMI friends.

The court said VMI could remain state supported if Virginia created
"parallel institutions or parallel programs" for women.  The three elements
of VMI that would be lost if women were admitted are "physical training,
the absence of privacy, and the adversative approach".   Seems to me it
would be theoretically possible to keep all three of those with women
or coed, but admittedly no women would then be willing to go there....or at
least a small number, I assume.

Will they admit women?
Will they become a private institution?
Will it go to the supreme court?


Film at 11.......

dan
From: TA0SHK1%NIU.BITNET@uga.cc.uga.edu (Stephen H. Karlson 753-6980 (815))
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.words-l
Subject: Re: leading economists
Date: 15 Oct 92 18:18:00 GMT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU

> Steve!  I have never seen you as the corrupter of young womanhood before!
> Hmmm...I can see my mental image needs readjustment.:)

Hmmm ... maybe I should skip the goat roast and any other ftf dealing
with list folks ... the role of object of speculation has its charms.

Steve (16 will get you 20) Karlson