HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: roberts@gaul.csd.uwo.ca (Eric Roberts)
Subject: Re: Why must you act this way?
Organization: Computer Science Dept., Univ. of Western Ontario, London, Canada
Distribution: world,public
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 05:15:50 GMT

In article <ksiew.726230394@munagin> ksiew@mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU (steven kok-hsien siew) writes:
>muehlhau@en.ecn.purdue.edu (John Muehlhausen) writes:
>
>>Right by her side.  Death is a result of sin, and happens from time to time
>>and for various reasons in our fallen world. 
>
> Death is a result of sin? Gee. I don't know. I've always thought that death is
>when your heart stops beating or if your head gets chop off. Where does sin
>comes into the picture. Even if you led a "sinless" life you will still die,
>so what is this death is a result of sin comes from?

Death comes from the original sin, before it man was immortal.

>
>>I look forward to meeting my Creator
>
> When you do, could you please ask him on my behalf whether Fermat's last
>theorem is true or false.
> 
I'll obtain the proof the next time I talk to Him..:) 

>> You may ask "Why doesn't God
>>intervene and end the suffering of this girl?"  He will (and does) both
>>miraculously and through modern medicine if it is His will for her to live.
>>If it is His will to let a young girl die, then it is for the greater good of
>>all those involved that love Him.  I don't see why you are mad at me - I
>>didn't make it up, nor can I do a good job defending the One who calls the
>>shots.  I suggest you seek Him for your answers.  Read James 1.
I think the answer here may be a little more simple. Death in the physical
world is but a transformation into another life. By allowing the girl
to die, no disservice is done to her. 
>
> Funny considering that the Catholic Church spend so much time and energy
>stopping Scientific progress during the time of Galileo. And what does the 
>church says about using anaesthesia during child birth when it was first
>introduced? GOD FORBID!! So much for end the suffering of that girl. It is
>for the greater good of the truth that I mention these things to you. I 
>suggest you seek the truth for your answers. Read Matthew 10:34-36 
>At least Jesus got that one right!!!
>

Just like everyone, the church makes mistakes. 

>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>The only people who believe that unlimited | Steven Siew  tel 03 803 4662
>growth can take place in a finite system   | ksiew@munagin.ee.mu.oz.au
>are madmen or economists. Spaceship earth: | Don't call me! Gundam me! 
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: mchenry@engr.latech.edu (Michael Q. McHenry)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Re: Weekly bible lesson (have an open mind!) NOT!
Date: 12 Jan 1993 16:43:42 GMT
Organization: Louisiana Tech University
Distribution: usa
Reply-To: mchenry@engr.latech.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: pulsar.engr.latech.edu

Dennis Gray Jr. writes: 
>
>Our lesson this week comes from First Samuel chapter 25:
>	
>	[lots of text with paragraphs starting with numbers 
>	 separated by colons deleted]
>

Actually, while I was deleting the rest of Dennis' text, I noticed what may have 
been sarcasm.  Not quite sure how to respond to theistic sarcasm.  But that is
leading me away from my central point, which is "zzzzzz".  One of the truly
great things about being an atheist is that you get to sleep in on sunday mournings
if you want to and not have to listen to some fanatic dribble on about this 
verse or that verse or these verses or them verses.  But, sigh, the concept of
a weekly bible lesson in a.a is..  well..  you know, I gotta hand it to Mr. Gray.
And yes!  for all of his great effort, he has won himself a glorious, fun-filled,
all expense paid, one-way trip into my kill file!!  (audience applause light)

>  And damn it, that's what it says in The Book!

It may just be me, but most of the theists I know (roommate, for example) don't
put much into the Book [tm].  But, then again, I hang around with engineering and
scientific-type theists, and I get to see them struggle with their faiths [tm] in
lights of the thruths (scientific, UL approved) that they accept. 

The attitude I'm most familiar with is that, hey, it's a great set of moral
guidleines, but it was never meant to be taken literally, word for stupid word.
Maybe there`s hope for them yet..

---
Quinn McHenry                 "If you would be a real seeker after truth, it
mchenry@engr.latech.edu        is necessary that at least once in your life
Biomedical Engineering         you doubt, as far as possible, all things."
Louisiana Tech University                   - Rene Descartes

Newsgroups: alt.atheism
From: merlyn@digibd.digibd.com (Merlyn LeRoy)
Subject: Re: Why? (was Re: THE MIND OF THE BIBLE BE
Organization: DigiBoard, Incorporated, Eden Prairie,MN
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 02:49:06 GMT

geoff@tyger.East.Sun.COM (Geoff Arnold @ Sun BOS - R.H. coast near the top) writes:
>%T The Existence of God (Revised Edition)

The book or the god?

---
Merlyn LeRoy
From: sieferme@stein.u.washington.edu (Eric Sieferman)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Re: Who knows the mind of God?
Date: 9 Jan 93 01:16:38 GMT
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
NNTP-Posting-Host: stein.u.washington.edu

>>Which nicely raise the question: what features distinguish religions
>>from lunatic asylums, anyway?
>>
>>jon.

In asylums, you get to watch TV.  Also, asylums provide
better drugs.  However, it is easier to sleep in church.


-- 
---  Overheard on talk.religion.misc:
"God would do nothing that wasn't for your own good even if
it involves pain.  There are times when we ask God to hit us
with a 2x4 when we do something wrong, and sometimes, He does."
Xref: sparky alt.atheism:25065 talk.religion.misc:25233
Newsgroups: alt.atheism,talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Christian racism
From: jsm@ibis.dsto.gov.au (James Marcus)
Date: 5 Jan 93 13:32:31 CST
Keywords: Christian racism depiction of christ

martin@cs.curtin.edu.au (Martin Dougiamas) writes:

>Related to my recent post "Evolution implied by the Bible" is
>another question that's always worried me about the racism in
>contemporary Christianity.

>Every Christian bible or movie I've ever seen depicts Christ and his
>followers as very nordic-looking people, for some reason, especially
>Christ.  Even the Turin shroud has an image of a man with a very thin
>face and long nose.  

>Not once have I seen the point raised that the characters in the 
>Bible were much more likely to have been dark-haired, dark-skinned
>and not overly tall, and had the same physical characteristics that
>most middle-eastern people share today.

Does it really matter?  I know that my faith is based on Jesus, the person,
the Son of God, not on how he is depicted on screen.

>  I suspect many Christians
>would be a whole lot less comfortable about things if they knew
>Jesus looked more like Saddam Hussein than some skinny Thor.

Why?

>I doubt many people associate their bible to the middle-east at all,
>despite it being completely set there.

I certainly associate the setting of the Bible with the Middle East.  As you
say, that is where the action was.  When I go overseas next year, I hope to
see some of this land (although it will probably only be some of the northern
regions).

>  I know Christians who 
>absolutely can't stand Jews, and yet worship the King of the Jews in church.
>(Come to think of it, same with Hitler)

They shouldn't hate Jews if they really were Christians.  God loves everyone.
Through Christ, we can also love everyone, even our enemies!

>Other things that bother me is the complete absence of any mention
>in the bible of things happening in other great civilizations of
>the world.  Do the Pyramids crack a mention?  Is there a single
>reference to the great achievements of the Chinese?  Not to mention
>the remains of dinosaurs and what-not.  These are undeniable important
>events in the world.

The Bible is not a "complete history of the world" encyclopaedia.  It is
about God, His grace, love, rightousness, patience, justice, forgiveness,
protection, teaching, faithfulness to His people and salvation through His
Son (just to name a few).  It consists of what is important to God, what He
wants to share with us.  Why should all these other things that you stated
come into it?  If they did, I think it would only be because they just
"happened to be in the picture".

>Suddenly God's view of himself and his creation as expressed in the
>bible looks very piddly indeed...
> confined as it is to a small number
>of people in one corner of the Mediterranean over a very short time span.

Does it?  Maybe you would like to create a world and place living creatures
on it.  THEN see if you call it piddly.

[ final bits deleted ]

Yours in Christ,
James.
From: mathew <mathew@mantis.co.uk>
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Re: FISH SIGS
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 93 12:24:56 GMT
Organization: Mantis Consultants, Cambridge. UK.
X-fish: <([]><

petel@sequent.com (Pete Lancashire) writes:
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
>    _______       |                                            |
>  oo) XIAN \/     | LOOK! ONE IS EVOLVING EVEN AS WE SPEAK!    |
>   ~_______/\     |                                            |
>  _/_\  _/_\      |                                            |
>                  |                                            |
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> This reminds me, who is it or where is it, I can get one
> of the fish with legs for my car (and my 'stall' at work) ?

It's in the FAQ file:

Evolution Designs sell the "Darwin fish".  It's a fish symbol, like the ones
Christians stick on their cars, but with feet and the word "Darwin" written
inside.  The deluxe moulded 3D plastic fish is $4.95 postpaid in the US.

Write to:  Evolution Designs, 7119 Laurel Canyon #4, North Hollywood,
           CA 91605.

People in the San Francisco Bay area can get Darwin Fish from Lynn Gold
<lgold@callahans.cadence.com>.  For net people who go to Lynn directly, the
price is $4.95 per fish.


mathew
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
From: jwest@wisc (Jeff West)
Subject: Please Colleen Please!
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL3
Date: 5 Jan 93 14:27:45 CST

I call out in the darkness (it's winter here in Wisconsin and therefore
dark a LOT!) for my God and she hasn't answered me.  * lately * 8v)

Don't be like those other false gods and make us "think" that your talking
to us.  Send us a divine message in this time of much tumult in alt.atheism.
We are being sent much theistic hub-bub by those who don't believe in you.
We tell them we want them to prove their gods, but none can.

Show the pagans here that you exist and do respond to your disciples!
   ( you didn't fail out of college last semester did you? ;-) )

Your servant,
  Cardinal Jeff

---------------------------------------------------------------------
It's not denial.  I'm just very selective about the reality I accept.

    - Calvin & Hobbs
From: m23364@mwunix (James Meritt)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Re: I still wouldn't worship it.
Date: 5 Jan 93 21:30:05 GMT
Organization: MITRE Corporation, McLean VA

In article <jfelder-311292094328@latvia.lerc.nasa.gov> jfelder@lerc.nasa.gov (James L. Felder) writes:
}You would really believe there is a God just because gravity got turned off
}for a few seconds?  Not me.  How would I know that this entity is really a
}"God" and not just some powe tripper from the next solar system whose
}technology blows mine clean out of the water.

If it is sadistic enough, what's the difference?

Operationally speaking, that is.

Seriously.  How could you tell?  Maybe "Jesus" IS a space alien!
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
From: jstump@auntbea.austin.ibm.com (John E. Stump)
Subject: Re: looking for God
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 14:51:29 GMT
Organization: IBM AWD Austin, TX

In article <93006.083705BLD110@psuvm.psu.edu> BLD110@psuvm.psu.edu writes:
[...deleted....]
>
>I have a question for those of you who are sure that there is no evidence that
>God exists.  What is the life force?  

Carbon.

>What is [it] that leaves that body when it dies?

Nothing leaves the body, except for some air. Do you have any proof
that anything else does?

>When you pick a flower what flows from it that causes it to wilt?

Great Horny Toads! Are you for real? It's not "what flows from it" that
causes it to wilt, but rather what DOESN'T FLOW TO IT; i.e. water,
nutrients, etc.

>What do you use to explain our complex ecosystem which can not operate
>without the full circle of elements, 

I explain this with millions of years of nature developing into a
wheel-greased machine.

>i.e. soil can not produce vegitation without humas.

I believe it can. We have successfully grown vegetation in soil from
the moon. I doubt any humas was added. Also, haven't you ever heard of
hydroponics? Those crappy tomatoes you get at the grocery store are
more than likely grown in water.

>It seems to me that most of those writing on this list are blindly posting
>their rhetoric without really listening or considering what the others are
>saying.  There are some exceptions, and I guess they are what keep me reading.
>                          Betty Lee Dowlin

I listened to what you said, but from your questions, I think that
perhaps you slept all through grade school, or at least science class.

Just because there might be things in this universe we can't explain, it
doesn't mean that it must be the result of some all-powerful God, does it?
-- 
John Stump (jstump@netftp.austin.ibm.com)
From: jeon@carson.u.washington.edu (Sangyong Jeon)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Re: Nailing Christianity: Sufficient Support for Atheism?
Date: 5 Jan 93 16:26:32 GMT
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
NNTP-Posting-Host: carson.u.washington.edu

It is precisely because there are multiple religions in this world each
claiming salvation only thru their god that I don't subscribe to the idea
of a god. From this, one could infer that all are wrong, or one is right
and all others wrong, or some are right and some wrong, etc. But I think
in most likelyhood this happens because humans have basic need to feel
safe and secure even if it means ignorance. God? I think not. If there is
anything remotely resembles the notion of god, that is us human, not
because a god created humans in their image, but rather because
we created gods in our image.

Opinions here are mine and mine only.
Jeon
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
From: ksiew@mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU (steven kok-hsien siew)
Subject: Re: Why must you act this way?
Organization: Computer Science, University of Melbourne, Australia
Distribution: world,public
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 10:39:54 GMT

muehlhau@en.ecn.purdue.edu (John Muehlhausen) writes:

>Right by her side.  Death is a result of sin, and happens from time to time
>and for various reasons in our fallen world. 

 Death is a result of sin? Gee. I don't know. I've always thought that death is
when your heart stops beating or if your head gets chop off. Where does sin
comes into the picture. Even if you led a "sinless" life you will still die,
so what is this death is a result of sin comes from?

>I look forward to meeting my Creator

 When you do, could you please ask him on my behalf whether Fermat's last
theorem is true or false.
 
> You may ask "Why doesn't God
>intervene and end the suffering of this girl?"  He will (and does) both
>miraculously and through modern medicine if it is His will for her to live.
>If it is His will to let a young girl die, then it is for the greater good of
>all those involved that love Him.  I don't see why you are mad at me - I
>didn't make it up, nor can I do a good job defending the One who calls the
>shots.  I suggest you seek Him for your answers.  Read James 1.

 Funny considering that the Catholic Church spend so much time and energy
stopping Scientific progress during the time of Galileo. And what does the 
church says about using anaesthesia during child birth when it was first
introduced? GOD FORBID!! So much for end the suffering of that girl. It is
for the greater good of the truth that I mention these things to you. I 
suggest you seek the truth for your answers. Read Matthew 10:34-36 
At least Jesus got that one right!!!

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
The only people who believe that unlimited | Steven Siew  tel 03 803 4662
growth can take place in a finite system   | ksiew@munagin.ee.mu.oz.au
are madmen or economists. Spaceship earth: | Don't call me! Gundam me! 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: alt.atheism,talk.religion.misc
From: dsoconne@quads.uchicago.edu (Daniel S OConnell)
Subject: Re: Christian racism
Followup-To: talk.religion.misc
Reply-To: dsoconne@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1993 22:57:11 GMT

>madhaus@netcom.com (Maddi Hausmann) writes:
>Now, the reason I brought this up in the first place was because
>Mr. Marcus has repeatedly told a.a. readers he had evidence of
>Satinic child abuse and molestation.  He kept saying he'd type
...
>On the other hand, many stories and studies have been posted on
>a.a. showing the prevalance of child abuse by Xians, both clergy
>and within the family.  My contention is that Xianity fosters
>such abuse, and the claim of Satanic child abuse is a projection
>of the actual occurrences by the Xians themselves.  My recent
>"Mind of the Bible Believer"  discussion  with Malcolm Lee
>discussed the roots of the psychological problems caused by
>Xianity.

In the latest issue of the Journal of Pastoral Care (an academic
quarterly) there is an article on pastoral approaches to identifying
MPDs (multiple personality disorders). It should be noted that almost
all cases of MPDs involve childhood sexual, physical, and emotional
abuse.

According to the article, at least 10-20 percent of the cases involve
fundamentalist Christian backgrounds, but more surprising to the
researchers - 20 to 30% involved SRA (Satanic Ritual Abuse).

Frankly, I find it astonishing (and so did the researchers), but study
of the correlation between MPDs and fundamentalist upbringings (of
either stripe) may be an burgeoning field of study in the '90's according
to the authors.

Dano
Newsgroups: alt.atheism,talk.religion.misc
From: martin@cs.curtin.edu.au (Martin Dougiamas)
Subject: Re: Christian racism
Organization: Curtin University of Technology
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 11:27:00 GMT

lungtt@gus.ecn.purdue.edu (Terence T. Lung) writes:
>martin@cs.curtin.edu.au (Martin Dougiamas) writes:
>>You sound like you're arguing my point for me!
>I doubt it.  I don't think you've got a point.

Look.

Fact: Christian churches around the world modify the appearance
      of Jesus to suit local believers.  The WASP Jesus was just
      a single, though widespread, example.
      You gave some others yourself.

Fact: Jesus was a historical figure, with a fixed appearance.

My argument is that the appearance of Jesus in illustrations
and icons is modified racially to increase acceptance among
those praying to him.

This is racial discrimination.  Hence my comments.

The ultimate point, which I agree I did not clearly make, is 
that if there are demonstratable fallacies in Christianity,
then how can we know which bits are "true" and which aren't?

>And what is your point by posting publicly mail 
>that you've received privately?

I've already apologised to you privately about that.
True, I should have asked your permission.  I'm sorry.
I honestly thought you replied mistakenly when you meant
to follow up, since it was a longish post.

Martin
--
Your eyes are weary from staring at the screen.  Your eyelids feel very heavy.
You feel sleepy. Notice how restful it is to watch the cursor blink. Close your
eyes. The opinions stated above are yours. You cannot imagine why you ever felt
otherwise.  When you awake you will follow up this post and enthusiastically
agree with it.  Then you will send all your money to martin@cs.curtin.edu.au.
From: mathew <mathew@mantis.co.uk>
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Re: Dealing with annoying e-mail: A real life example!
Date: Mon, 04 Jan 93 15:28:39 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Mantis Consultants, Cambridge. UK.

ingles@engin.umich.edu (Ray Ingles) writes:
>  They said there'd be snow at Christmas; They said there'd be peace on Earth.
>  Halelujah Noel, be it Heaven or Hell; The Christmas we get we deserve.
>       -ELP, "I Believe in Father Christmas"

That's the second person I've seen quoting Greg Lake's Christmas single.  I'm
glad I'm not the only person who likes it... it's the only Christmas single I
consider worthwhile.


mathew
[ Although "Fuck Christmas" by Fear also has a special place in my heart. ]
Newsgroups: alt.atheism,talk.religion.misc,alt.pagan
Subject: Re: did I like miss your point?
From: adams@spss.com (Steve Adams)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 15:18:02 GMT
 <1993Jan2.095314.16123@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> <C0BLD5.DMo@unixhub.SLAC.Stanford.EDU>
Organization: SPSS Inc.

joann@unixhub.SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Jo Ann Malina) writes:

>In article <1993Jan2.095314.16123@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> pciszek@nyx.cs.du.edu (Paul Ciszek) writes:
>>Didn't O'Hare seek some sort of legal action against some Apollo astronauts
>>for praying on a publically funded spacecraft?  (Like three guys millions of
>>miles from earth in a machine built by the lowest bidder should be denied the
>>right to call on the deity of their choice!)
>>
>They weren't calling on the deity of THEIR choice. The reading from the
>book of Genesis on Christmas by the Apollo 10 astronauts was written
>into their log by NASA. It was the mandating of this reading by the
>government that was objected to. (Note that even though it was
>supposedly an expression of some sort of Christmas spirit, it came
>from the Old Testament.)

Huh?  Because something is recored in the logs (as it everything should be
on such a mission), that was 'mandating the reading by the government'?
Ya know, I'm all for a separation of govt & religion, but this kind of
complaint is ridiculous, as were O'Hare's attempts to ban ANY public
display of religion.

  -Steve
--
  The opinions expressed above are those of the author and not SPSS, Inc.
                         -------------------
   adams@spss.com                                  Phone: (312) 329-3522
   Steve Adams        "Space-age cybernomad"       Fax:   (312) 329-3558
Newsgroups: alt.atheism