HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: hist1261@waikato.ac.nz
Newsgroups: alt.war.vietnam
Subject: Oliver Stone's Latest Film
Date: 15 Dec 92 10:59:39 +1300
Organization: University of Waikato, Hamilton, New Zealand

Apologies if this is wrong place to ask a question concerning the fictional
treatment of the war, but I read a small piece in a local newspaper this
morning concerning the production of Oliver Stone's latest Vietnam film
which is called I think "Heaven and Earth".

I am attempting a thesis on Vietnam war films and I would appreciate any and
all information on this film.

thanks in advance, e-mail as above.

Richard.

Newsgroups: alt.war.vietnam
From: jewell@mace.cc.purdue.edu (Larry Jewell)
Subject: Re: Falsity of "live MIA/POW evidence" (was Re: FOREVER GONE)
Organization: Purdue University
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 00:06:37 GMT

No MIA's have been found alive, therefore no MIA's WILL be found alive.

This is mental laziness to the extreme.

No man ever set foot on the moon so no man will ever set foot on the moon,
right Dave?

Garwood came back to life six years after the assholes in DC said announced
he was dead, along with all the others.  Someone should tell him to stay
dead and not bother the assholes in DC.

Larry J

-- 
#L.W. Jewell Moderator at the Veterans Information Site (veteran@cc.purdue.edu)#
#& WWII-L Listowner: "Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange,#
#sudden and wholly unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all   #
#phases of life." "Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41  #
Newsgroups: alt.war.vietnam,soc.veterans
From: jmjones@sdf.lonestar.org (Jon Mahler)
Subject: I dissagree dave p.s. I'm dissapointed
Organization: sdf full-shell Public Access Unix - Dallas, TX - 214/436-3281
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 05:47:25 GMT

Dave,
I was appaled to hear you say that the POW/MIA situation is overpublicized. I 
firmly believe that the POW/MIAs should not be forgotten. I totaly agree with
Larry in that there is no such thing as overpublicizing the POWs and MIAs in 
Vietnam. As for your comment that you would not expect anyone to come looking
for you after 20 years, HA well I think that you would believe differently if
you were in a bamboo cage wondering if today was the day you were going to 
die. I'd like you to read a poem that I found. I would appreciate it if you
read it objectively and didnt cut it up in to quotes for use in a message to
prove me wrong as you so inconsidderately did with larry's message. 
sn't there ANYTHING **ANYONE** can do?

                 by:     Alan C. Harnack

                         199th Light Infantry Brigade

                         In: VVA Chapter 362

                             Cadilllac, MI Chapter Newsletter

 

           Isn't there ANYTHING **ANYONE** can do?

          =========================================

 

                P.O.W.  -  M.I.A.  <<<<<<<

 

          Doesn't Anybody Care About Me?

           Hear me,help me,Uncle Sam.

          I'm a prisoner of the war in Vietnam.

         I came to serve my blessed land.

         Now I'm confused on where I stand.

       They tell me that the war is through.

          But I have yet to see the proof.

       The man by the door still has a gun.

           And I have yet to  see the sun.

        I've been here for eighteen years.

          My eyes are wet from lonely tears.

          I pray some day that I may see

            My lovely wife and family.

            Leeches live upon my skin,

             Parasites down deep  within.

          Mosquitoes land upon my face.

        I've got to  get out  of this place!

       Men have died since I've been here.

         I feel my number's getting near.

       My vision's dim,it's hard to see.

          Doesn't anybody care about me?

 

                     - Alan C. Harnack -

 

 

Now goddamnit you read that and you HONESTLY tell me that you think that the
POW/MIA situation is overpublicized. 






-- 
+------------------------------------------------------------------------------+| jmjones@sdf.lonestar.org                               The only easy day     || Dallas, Texas                                          was yesterday         ||                                                         - BUD/S Class '89    |+------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Newsgroups: alt.war.vietnam
From: drk@cs.uiuc.edu (David Kohr)
Subject: Re: I dissagree dave p.s. I'm dissapointed
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept of Comp Sci, Urbana, IL
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 21:26:23 GMT

In article <BzE2r2.L2I@sdf.lonestar.org> jmjones@sdf.lonestar.org (Jon
Mahler) writes:
>Dave,
>
>I was appaled to hear you say that the POW/MIA situation is
>overpublicized.  I firmly believe that the POW/MIAs should not be
>forgotten.

Don't misinterpret what I'm saying.  Reducing the amount of publicity of
MIA/POW cases (because there is simply *no* credible evidence for them,
after 20 years of investigation) does *not* mean the MIA's/POW's will be
"forgotten".  Private citizens will still be able to go looking for them,
and the U.S. military will still be able to look for them.  My whole point
is that this issue should not be the primary basis for U.S. policy toward
Vietnam, as it has been for several years now.  It does *not* belong on the
front pages of U.S. newspapers unless someone is actually found (which I
firmly believe will simply not happen, ever, and not for lack of looking or
due to the cruelty of the evil Communist Vietnamese government).

>I'd like you to read a poem that I found.
>
>[....]
>          Doesn't Anybody Care About Me?
>[....]
>
> Now goddamnit you read that and you HONESTLY tell me that you think that
> the POW/MIA situation is overpublicized. 

Alright:

	The POW/MIA situation is overpublicized.

This is a perfectly fine poem about a FICTIONAL event.  Until somebody
finds a live U.S. MIA/POW in Vietnam, it will still be just FICTION.

I find Tolkien moving too, but that doesn't mean I believe in dwarves,
elves, dragons, and fairies.
-- 
Dave Kohr     CS Graduate Student     Univ. of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Work: 3244 DCL, (217)333-6561  Home: (217)359-9350  E-mail: drk@cs.uiuc.edu
                   "One either has none or not enough."
Newsgroups: alt.war.vietnam,soc.veterans
From: jewell@mace.cc.purdue.edu (Larry Jewell)
Subject: Re: Falsity of "live MIA/POW evidence" (was Re: FOREVER GONE)
Organization: Purdue University
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1992 01:01:17 GMT

Dave, you have spouted the same old line, "forget the subject, forget
the men, let's normalized relations."  

Some men have more honor than that.  Men like me will not forget that
men were left behind, no matter what men like you do to try to get us
to do so.

If you aren't part of the solution, you're part of the problem.  You
are a hinderance to the goal of those who want our men or their remains
back.  I pity your lack of sense of duty, and abhor the thought that there
are others like you in the US.

I have no lower limit for my distaste for deserters, either from their
country or from their duty to their countrymen.  You dishonor those
men with your callous attitude toward their efforts, and this is the last
thing I have to say to you on this subject.  You're already in my mail.junk
file, and now you go into my kill file.  Just remember that you'll never
need rescuing because of the scarifices of the men you have no interest in
rescuing.

Larry J

-- 
#L.W. Jewell Moderator at the Veterans Information Site (veteran@cc.purdue.edu)#
#& WWII-L Listowner: "Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange,#
#sudden and wholly unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all   #
#phases of life." "Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41  #
From: dean@vexcel.com (Dean Alaska)
Newsgroups: alt.war.vietnam
Subject: Re: FOREVER GONE
Date: 16 Dec 92 18:44:27 GMT
Organization: VEXCEL Corporation, Boulder CO

How long after the Korean War were MIA's being searched for?  The percentage
of MIA's from that war is higher than from Vietnam.  Also, the Japanese
soldier who walked out of the Philipine jungle was not held against his
will and no amount of communication between the various combatant
governments would have affected when he walked out.
-- 
==============================================================================

	"A calculator is no better than the equation it solves" - me
Newsgroups: alt.war.vietnam
From: jewell@mace.cc.purdue.edu (Larry Jewell)
Subject: Re: FOREVER GONE
Organization: Purdue University
Distribution: world 
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 12:38:43 GMT

In article <1992Dec16.184427.14189@vexcel.com> dean@vexcel.com (Dean Alaska) writes:
>How long after the Korean War were MIA's being searched for? 

 That generation was too well programed to "shut up and sit down" for them to
raise the needed amount of hell.  Thus the government was allowed to forget
the minor problem of missing men.

> The percentage of MIA's from that war is higher than from Vietnam. 

 So we have more to be ashamed of about that than we do about Vietnam.  Even
more men with families whose questions will never be answered.

> Also, the Japanese soldier who walked out of the Philipine jungle was not 
> held against his will and no amount of communication between the various 
> combatant governments would have affected when he walked out.

 He survived in a country where the entire poplulation was against him and
the Army was looking for stragglers.  His government wasn't interested in
retrieving live troops, only the remains of dead ones.  Was there ever an
effort by the Japanese government to try to contact any possible survivors
and get them back home?  No, they were quite happy to forget the whole
thing and get on with building transistor radios and establishing trade
status with the U.S.

>-- 
>==============================================================================
>
>	"A calculator is no better than the equation it solves" - me

Larry J

-- 
#L.W. Jewell Moderator at the Veterans Information Site (veteran@cc.purdue.edu)#
#& WWII-L Listowner: "Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange,#
#sudden and wholly unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all   #
#phases of life." "Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41  #
From: Monte Olsen <olsenm@ucs.orst.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.war.vietnam
Subject: Re: FOREVER GONE
Date: 17 Dec 1992 23:56:25 GMT
Organization: University Computing Services - Oregon State University
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: rostb-mac.ads.orst.edu
X-UserAgent: Nuntius v1.1.1d12
X-XXMessage-ID: <A7565478CA01A710@rostb-mac.ads.orst.edu>
X-XXDate: Thu, 17 Dec 92 23:59:52 GMT

In article <BzBM95.77u@cs.uiuc.edu> David Kohr, drk@cs.uiuc.edu writes:
>My comment above applies to you also.
>
>If you can't keep your posts civil, then don't post at all.
>


Gee, Dave, you're not trying to inhibit my right to free speech and
thought are you? Why, that would be, gee, kinda fascistic wouldn't it? 

Isn't it interesting that you claim there hasn't been "a shred of
evidence." How we tend to pick and choose what we want to believe. Why,
even you might be doing that. I've seen photographs of SOS messages
spotted from the air but of course those are probably all hoaxes
perpetrated by someone. But by whom? 

No, it couldn't be the same people who were bullied and beaten by the
nasty U.S. and its allies could it? No, because time after time you've
commented on how honest those people have been. Well, if that's the case,
then many of those messages and perhaps even some of the live sightings
must be real. 

But of course, you don't believe in live sightings. Not that those people
who were seen would continue moving in a hostile environment to prevent
capture. Not that the most recent report of a person being held in
Cambodia only months ago couldn't be true. (20/20 isn't a reliable
source.) Not that this person's family who flew there to investigate the
report and was told that the person they came to see had just been moved
couldn't be the truth.

But, of course, your sources are unimpeachable aren't they Dave? And your
sources tell you that there is no American in that country alive or being
held against his will, isn't that correct, Dave? And you do believe
everything you've read by your 100-percent-reliable sources, don't you?
Newsgroups: alt.war.vietnam
From: drieux@wetware.com (drieux, just drieux)
Subject: what were we saying about being nice?
Organization: Castle WetWare Philosopher and Sniper
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 06:22:25 GMT

jewell@mace.cc.purdue.edu (Larry Jewell) writes:

] No MIA's have been found alive, therefore no MIA's WILL be found alive.
] 
] This is mental laziness to the extreme.
] 
] Larry J

Now Larry, David is a Grad Student,
how can you accuse him of mental lazziness?


ciao
drieux

ps: there is a small problem with using garwood
as an illustration. He was working for the NVA/NLF
for a time period, and hence more likely to be
maintained, even if the WizKids in the PuzzlePalace
were short a few letters of a Klue.

pps: from private conversations with medicl members
of the team that went into Laos in '89, the basic feeling
is that the odds are close to nil that we will find any
live pow/mia at this late date. It will be useful to 
resolve many of the currently outstanding cases from such
information that can be made publicaly available.



-- 
Modern Day Problems:
Analysis Standards Supporting HeteroDyne Orthoganal Linear Enhancement Systems
ASSHOLES The Model of the Modern Major Manager's Mangement Tool! 
Posix Compliant, Xwindow InterOperable, A Unix Standard!
Newsgroups: alt.war.vietnam
From: jewell@mace.cc.purdue.edu (Larry Jewell)
Subject: Re: FOREVER GONE
Organization: Purdue University
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 23:42:38 GMT

Dave, you sound like you've never been in danger and depended on men to
cover your ass and have never had to do the same for them.  This is good,
since it means men like me have done their job and done it well.  Those
men deserve every chance to come home if possible, not be written off by
people who have used them up and thrown them away.

You say the issue is "over-publicized"?  Why should we under-publicize it?
Would you accept being abandoned in some far-away land and hope that the US 
forgets the whole matter in order to make life more comfortable for the regime
that holds you?

You want to forget about these men, I hope that the same gratitude is extended
to you in some future scenario, with St. Peter as the star of the scene.

Larry J

-- 
#L.W. Jewell Moderator at the Veterans Information Site (veteran@cc.purdue.edu)#
#& WWII-L Listowner: "Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange,#
#sudden and wholly unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all   #
#phases of life." "Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41  #
From: Monte Olsen <olsenm@ucs.orst.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.war.vietnam
Subject: Re: FOREVER GONE
Date: 15 Dec 1992 19:50:23 GMT
Organization: University Computing Services - Oregon State University
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: rostb-mac.ads.orst.edu
X-UserAgent: Nuntius v1.1.1d12
X-XXMessage-ID: <A75377C92901A710@rostb-mac.ads.orst.edu>
X-XXDate: Tue, 15 Dec 92 19:53:45 GMT

In article <BzA1rM.Ix0@cs.uiuc.edu> David Kohr, drk@cs.uiuc.edu writes:
>
>I NEVER SAID THIS.  Why don't you reply to what I actually wrote, and not
>what you think I wrote?  I think you're getting wildly over-emotional.


Dave,
You honestly don't understand the depth of feeling expressed in Larry's
posts or the history behind it do you ? To be honest, I don't think you
have the capacity to understand. For some reason you've developed a blind
spot, which, in my opinion, is not entirely rational. 

You feel others who continue trying to bring their missing relatives home
or to reach some acceptable closure--even after 20 years-- are
irrational. But, again, you don't understand their depth of feeling. Yet
you refuse to look at history. It wasn't that long ago a Japanese emerged
from the Phillipine jungle, decades after WWII and was greeted as a hero
in his homeland. Or have you conveniently forgotten that? Yet no one saw
"a single trace" of him during that time. Why should Vietnam veterans be
any different in you mind? Why are you so willing to write them and their
experiences off? 

You've accused Larry of being "wildly over-emotional." His final
statement certainly didn't affect me that way. Why are you so defensive
about what he says?
Newsgroups: alt.war.vietnam
From: drk@cs.uiuc.edu (David Kohr)
Subject: Re: FOREVER GONE
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept of Comp Sci, Urbana, IL
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 03:38:01 GMT

In article <Bz6C5H.5KF@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> jewell@mace.cc.purdue.edu
(Larry Jewell) writes:
> I will never give up hope, no matter how badly you'd like me to do so.
>
>Larry J

Whether or not you give up hope is purely your personal decision.  But
whether or not this hope, on the part of a large segment of the population,
is the overriding factor determining US policy toward Vietnam (as it has
been for some time now--according to the official government line), is
another matter entirely.
-- 
Dave Kohr     CS Graduate Student     Univ. of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Work: 3244 DCL, (217)333-6561  Home: (217)359-9350  E-mail: drk@cs.uiuc.edu
                   "One either has none or not enough."
Newsgroups: alt.war.vietnam
From: jmjones@sdf.lonestar.org (Jon Mahler)
Subject: What are we really concerned with here?
Organization: sdf full-shell Public Access Unix - Dallas, TX - 214/436-3281
Distribution: na
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 18:22:38 GMT

I have just recently started reading alt.war.vietnam . However there seems to
be more emphasis on the strategic screw ups than on the vets that are still
sufferering from the war. Maybe I have misunderstood the purpose of the group,
but It is my personal opinion that we should worry less about what could have
been done by either side DURING the war and be more concerned with what can
be done NOW.
-- 
+------------------------------------------------------------------------------+| jmjones@sdf.lonestar.org                               The only easy day     || Dallas, Texas                                          was yesterday         ||                                                         - BUD/S Class '89    |+------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
From: allanc@cs.su.oz.au (Restless Wanderer)
Newsgroups: alt.war.vietnam
Subject: Re: FOREVER GONE
Date: 20 Dec 92 22:58:26 GMT
Reply-To: allanc@cluster.cs.su.oz (Restless Wanderer)
Organization: Basser Dept of Computer Science, University of Sydney, Australia

In article <1992Dec16.045354.27534@cunews.carleton.ca> nguyen@turing.scs.carleton.ca (H.H. Nguyen) writes:
>In article <BzAwsn.9xB@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> jewell@mace.cc.purdue.edu (Larry Jewell) writes:
>> Go talk to to Garwood, he working at a gas station in North Carolina,last
>>I heard.

Is that right,I was lead to believe he went into ' hiding ' after the
Reagan administrations poor handling over MIA's

>
>	Could you tell me what information Mr Garwood has provided regarding 
>the MIA ?  I indeed don't know and I don't know how to get in touch with
>him either. 
>
>	Thanks,
>	H.H. Nguyen
>

I suggest a book called "Kiss The Boys Goodbye" by Monika Stevense(o)n,I'll
supply the ISBN if you want.The book is a detailed account of what Mr Garwood
had to say to various committees.This also investigates the politics 
involved with MIA/POW's.Amazing read.
Allanc
Newsgroups: alt.war.vietnam
From: jewell@mace.cc.purdue.edu (Larry Jewell)
Subject: Re: FOREVER GONE
Organization: Purdue University
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 12:45:58 GMT

In article <BzA1rM.Ix0@cs.uiuc.edu> drk@cs.uiuc.edu (David Kohr) writes:

>There is absolutely no reason for anyone to think there are any American
>MIA's or POW's still held in Vietnam against their will.  

 You are truly clueless.  Sad but true.

 Go talk to to Garwood, he working at a gas station in North Carolina,last
I heard.

 Larry J

-- 
#L.W. Jewell Moderator at the Veterans Information Site (veteran@cc.purdue.edu)#
#& WWII-L Listowner: "Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange,#
#sudden and wholly unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all   #
#phases of life." "Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41  #
Newsgroups: alt.war.vietnam
From: parasite@jupiter.sun.csd.unb.ca (Leslie Mills)
Subject: Re: War & Democracy
Organization: University of New Brunswick
Distribution: na
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 13:12:12 GMT

In article <sf=A04m00awN81VV5P@andrew.cmu.edu> Patrick Pearse Gallagher <pg23+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
> (Lines deleted...)
>
>One thing I was discussing the  other day.  Why do you suppose the
>American military has been so successful?  We also know that the Israeli
>military has been very  successful.  A hypothesis with nothing to back
>it up: Maybe both are successful because they both let immigrants from
>such a wide variety of places in(until recently in US)  Israel has open
>immigration for all Jews, and until 1969, the US was open to just about
>everyone.(date could be off).  Does anyone have any clue what the
>kill-ratio has been for modern Israel?  I heard it was some outrageous
>number, but can't verify it.

Interesting hypothesis.  I always thought that one of the keys of a
successful military was how it fought complacency.  The Israeli military
has always thought that that one moment of weakness would mean Israel's
destruction at the hands of the Arabs.  The Yom Kippur War is one case where
it nearly happened.

>	Some more thoughts:  On a war simulator game, Shadow President, my
>friend tried invading Mexico.  He racked up a 10 to 1 kill ratio, and it
>took 2 weeks to bring them to their knees.
>	How long do you think it would take us to defeat a Canada or Mexico in
>a real conventional war.  Keep in mind that the US would be the
>agressor, and we'd have to contend with just about everyone on earth
>defending them.  Yeah, I know it would never happen, just imagine.
>--Patrick

I don't know a thing about Mexico.  But the US should easily be able to
overrun Canada for these reasons:

	- The U.S. and Canada have the longest unprotected border between
	  two countries in the world.
	- 90% of the Canadian population lies within 100 miles (160 km)
	  of this border.
	- Canada's military is not comparable in size to that of the US.
	- Assistance from foriegn countries would have to cross the Atlantic
	  or Pacific Oceans.  I doubt the US Navy would be so obliging as
	  to allow this.

I'm not disparaging the Canadian military's ability (I'm Canadian myself),
but if the US wants to take over Canada, there's not much we can do about it.

On a side note: one of the reasons of our Confederation was that a united
Canada could better resist annexation from the US.

-- 
Leslie Mills

If you love something, set it free.  If it doesn't come back to you,
Hunt it down and kill it -- Thus sayeth a T-shirt
Newsgroups: alt.war