HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mimir@hardy.u.washington.edu (Al Billings)
Subject:  Language Sub-Comittee Report from the Orgone Committee
Organization: The Friends of Loki Society
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1992 07:51:05 GMT

 Orgone Committee Language Subcommittee Report

 Summer Solstice Report 1990 E.V.

 Greetings from the language labs!  latest news is the beginning
adaptation of American Sign Language to meet the needs of a
Telescreen oriented society.  The earlier resolutions to eliminate
the is of identity are being further developed by a united effort
of the Neo-Thelemoids and Wiccoid-Panpaganites.  Instead of "is"
we use "as". Examples:

 I as chairman of the Language Subcommittee instead of
 I am chairman of the Language Subcommittee

 That guy as stupid. Replaces
 That guy is stupid.

 Or Take: Neo-Thel is the most survival enhancing philosophy.
 And make: Neo-Thel as the most survival enhancing philosophy.

 Or: The Orgone Committee is the best Initiatic body ever!
 Becomes: The Orgone Committee as the best Initiatic body ever.

 Heres: I am the master, you are the slave.
 Now: I as the master, you as the slave. 

 All Jews are evil. Now:
 All Jews as evil.

 I am right! The less certain:
 I as right!

 When we say that something "is" we invest it an identity that has
a solidity which is more absolute than human experience and
speculation indicates. To say that someone "is" something is to
unnecessarily restrict their identity to that one thing. It allows
us to foist consuming roles on others and ourselves simply because
of the inaccurate piece of mental territory that the word indicates
and creates. It allows us to be lazy and get into the habit of
investing words with a level of reality that does not get us the
results we need. 

 At this stage, we are not seriously implementing the Agenda Items
concerning the creation of a hieroglyphic written language which
the Committee is resolved to have created by 1994 (e.v.that is). 
Naturally, any and almost all suggestions by the membership are
welcome, and will be added to the language labs database.  Please
address any correspondence Attention: Language Subcommittee.   

Interested in communicating? Write to: Language Subcommittee C/O
Orgone Committee P.O. Box 614 Vanbrunt Station Brooklyn NY 11215

Look for the Newspeak Dictionary in 1991-92 e.v.

SEX IS PEACE
TRUE WILL NOT SLAVERY
CONCIOUSNESS IS STRENGTH

Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: grimoire@byron.u.washington.edu (John Greer)
Subject: Re: Singin' Those Apocalypse Blues
Keywords: gloom doom magic survival
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 23:59:03 GMT

In article <1992Dec18.091426.1178@u.washington.edu> mimir@hardy.u.washington.edu (Al Billings) writes:
>
> Cannons are actually fairly easy to tool if you have the materials. I've
>worked with small black powder cannons made from old WWII battleship
>anti-aircraft armanent. They took the barrels (which are rather good
>quality steel) and retolled the outside and inside. Can't tell it by
>looking where they came from. You can get a good cannon with a barrel
>about four or five feet long that is rifled and fires either a six or so
>inch conical shell (big holes in things!) or can be loaded with many .30
>or so calibar lead balls (big shotgun effect). These things are rather
>easy to transport and the only upkeep is keeping rust off and making sure
>you don't pack powder in when there is a spark in there. IF you do that,
>they blow up. Good for being mounted in a settlement, that's for sure.
>

That's useful to know.  If this technology gets common in a postcollapse
situation, the picturesque castle architecture i mentioned in an earlier
post would be more or less useless.  Still, there are equally good ways
to build defensive works in an artillery-enriched environment; check out
the history of fortifications between about 1600 and 1800.

(Weren't we talking about the forts designed by Fludd and Kircher a little
while back?)

I wonder how common the materials for these cannons are, though, and how
readily they could be made out of more common metal (say, scrap cars and
rebar broken out of concrete).  This might be a short-term problem...

-- JMG


Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: Tagi@cup.portal.com (Thyagi Morgoth NagaSiva)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Pentagrams
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 92 10:29:25 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
  <1992Dec15.231554.5753@seas.smu.edu> <71824@cup.portal.com>
  <1992Dec20.034109.12591@wam.umd.edu>

9212.21 e.v. [Happy Solstice!  Lovely Dark Moon too!  Dark Dark Dark!]
 

I wrote:

>I only have one question for those moralists (especially from 'earth-based'
>religions) who preach that the 'point-down' or 'inverted' pentagram
>(heptagram, nonagram, or even trigram!) is somehow indicative of 'evil'
>or 'malevolence':
>
>
>Toward what, precisely, is the point directed?
>
>
>Figure it out, kiddies.


You wrote:

I think you need to figure it son!  There is no such thing as
a hell or a devil in earth based, Goddess based religions.  The next
time you post know what the hell you are talking about.

***************************** porta@wam.umd.edu ****************************


Response:

Get a life.  Have you considered that I was not IMPLYING Hell?  
Do you associate 'down' with Hell?  If not, then what?  If earth,
then do you associate the point-down pentacle with earth?  

Before you go shooting your mouth off, please fill it with something
we'd all like to hear.  Thanks.


Thyagi the ruthless
From: plord@pioneer.uspto.gov (Paul Lord)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: FAQ addendum
Date: 28 Dec 1992 09:42:46 -0600
Organization: CS Dept, University of Texas at Austin
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

Greetings all!

	Last week I sent some email out offering to compile and maintain the
FAQ addendum re: frequent posters to alt.magick.  I got a reply from Tagi
saying that someone else was already working on it, but he didn't provide an
email address.  Bob?  You out there?  I wouldn't want to usurp; let me know
how you wish to proceed. 

I planned to include not only the current active audience of a.m, but also
past posters who should be recognized as clueful if they were to resurface
(for example, Colin Low or Tim Maroney, neither of whom has posted
recently).  Bob, I can send you the addresses for this group of people (that
is, if you don't have them).

On that note, does anyone have a more current address for Tim than
tim@toad.com??

Yours,
Paul
--
Paul Lord / Pope Festering Meme 	
In girum imus nocte et consumimur igni


Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: joshua@cpac.washington.edu (Joshua Geller)
Subject: Re: pentagrams and sepher sephirot
Organization: Institute for the Study of Ancient Science
	<6iL4VB6w165w@brewich.hou.tx.us>
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 09:48:09 GMT


In article <6iL4VB6w165w@brewich.hou.tx.us> sirbyte@brewich.hou.tx.us (William 
hancock) writes:

>   dpschneider@eagle.wesleyan.edu writes:
>   > Well its just a thought... but now I have a question. In "Sepher Sephiro
>   > it is clear that at times Crowley does not use the numerical attributions
>   >of the final letters. 

neither do jewish qabalists, as a general rule.

the finals are a late development in the alphabet.


josh
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: jasonp@bungie.prime.com(Jason Pascucci)
Subject: Re: Hello, Harish, and Bran
Organization: Prime Computer R&D
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 03:30:10 GMT

In article <72569@cup.portal.com>, Tagi@cup.portal.com (Thyagi Morgoth NagaSiva) writes:
|> 9212.29 e.v.
|> Lowell Morisson quotes Harish Reddy and writes, I respond to both:
|> harish.reddy@factory.com (Harish Reddy) wrote:
|> Harish, I think you were right and honest the first time.  Power is the
|> major lure to Magick and you knew enough to associate it.

I can't find myself agreeing. Power is meaningless, I knew
that instinctively (intrinsically?) before dipping in my toe. The major 
lure to magick doesn't, for me, seem that easily quantifiable. I'd
bet that the real reasons people actually investigate magick,
are those similar to why people 'experiment' with Zen Buddhism, 
Christianity, and other forms of Mysticism outside of their familial 
forms. Why they stay is because it 'works'. 

One might expect that there is a level of 'soul' (if one soul of 
the Atman can be said to be higher than another) associated with the
void filled by Magick. I sometimes wonder whether it's of a
higher, or lower order...however, I find it makes no difference
as to the practice and benefit of the Magickal process.

|> Lowell:
|> ..
|> "Magick is in large part a matter of symbolism and intent, and therefore
|> you must master both symbolism and yourself first".  I myself have
|> .. 
|> Response:
|> 
|> This is ridiculous and I'd like to formally challenge it.  
|>
|> :::Thyagi throws down the rubber chicken of challenge:::
|> 
|> Please, explain what you mean by 'symbolism', 'intent' and 'mastery' in
|> both of these.  THEN, explain what you mean by 'yourself' and how 'mastery'
|> may be applied to it.  Elsewise, start emailing Harish for some lessons
|> on Magick.  Thanks.

Why, Tagi? Why should his statement bear any more need for
his exposition than 'DWTW' should for AC? Leave it as an excercize 
for the student, as it should be, to do with as he or she will. 

All roads lead to Amber. 

|> Thyagi

--
Jason R. Pascucci
jasonp@primerd.prime.com
From: amanda@intercon.com (Amanda Walker)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: MINDWALKING Buddhists, oh my!
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 17:46:10 -0500
Organization: InterCon Systems Corporation
Distribution: world
Reply-To: amanda@intercon.com (Amanda Walker)
NNTP-Posting-Host: chaos.intercon.com
X-Newsreader: InterCon TCP/Connect II 1.1b29

tucker@maestro.mitre.org (William Tucker) writes:
> ps. Amanda Walker wherever you are, I guess science does prove 
>     that Buddhism is the one true religion. ;-)

Nah, it just proves the Kabbalah :)... all this projection, enfolding, 
implicit and explicit order, etc.  Maybe Abulafia was a physicist ahead of 
his time.  "Kether is in Malchut and Malchut is in Kether..."

> Actually most of 
>     the major religions say the same thing and properly read (- 
>     so does Christianity. Ask ThyAgni! 

For that matter, ask me :).



Amanda Walker
InterCon Systems Corporation


Xref: sparky alt.magick:6439 talk.religion.misc:24430
From: Tagi@cup.portal.com (Thyagi Morgoth NagaSiva)
Newsgroups: alt.magick,talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Commentary on _Liber I_ (Mysticism)
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 92 11:35:18 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
  <1992Dec20.025126.1889@primerd.prime.com>

9212.22 e.v.


Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
The word of Sin is Restriction.


I commented on _Liber I_ thusly:


00 [4] These are the seven vultures of evil.

 4. Liberation may be found here and now.


Scooch writes:

I don't get this from that line, something else which I can't
quite pinpoint.  The Magus has no need of Liberation, this
happened previously.


Response:

The seven vultures of evil are the manifested multiverse.
Their power resides in their darkness (evil).  That the Magus
is one with them she needs no Liberation, true, for it is found
in every moment, in every experience.  There is no 'previously'.
There is only Self and Other, waiting to be resolved.  


I commented:

00 [6] How shall He destroy Himself?

 6. Who am I but Pan?


Scooch:

This is the Magus' Opus, not already achieved.


Response:

Agreed.  The Magus' Opus is to ask the question, 'who am I?'
and in so doing perform the Great Work.



I commented:

0 [2] And the Magus is Love, and bindeth together This and That
        in His Conjuration.

 2. The Spell of Agape is Unity through binding and release.


Scooch:

Where's #2 from?  I understand what it's trying to say, but it's
too limiting.  Perhaps 'Binding by release' is closer.


Response:

Perhaps also 'Release through binding'.  #2 is from the Abyss of my
mind. ;>


I commented:

1...
 1. Karma brings dissatisfaction. (Fall)
 2. The everyday mind is the mind of the Buddha. (Christ)


Scooch:

'Truth is Eternal' only below the Abyss.



Response:

Above the Abyss where is above the Abyss?  Where is below?



4 [2] How shall He cease to number Himself? [resolve Multiplicity]


Scooch:

Resolve Multiplicity is a little too cryptic, even though correct.
To number (that is, to name) yourself implies a differentiation
which doesn't exist in the mind's I:.


Response:

Invoke me under my stars.  Love is the law, love under will.


I am I! ;>


Frater (I) Nigris (666)
From: Tagi@cup.portal.com (Thyagi Morgoth NagaSiva)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: alt.magick FAQ
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 92 19:40:22 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)

Any people within this newsgroup who would like to see this revised
and/or scrapped and rewritten, please contact me via email.  Thanks.

Thyagi
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: oispeggy@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (Peggy Brown)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: My answers (was Re: ... Definitions of "evil")
Date: 3 Jan 93 11:16:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <C09oL5.H58.1@cs.cmu.edu>, drake+@cs.cmu.edu (Drake) writes...
>oispeggy@ubvmsc.cc.buffalo.edu (Peggy Brown) writes:
> 
>>It would be nice to have a set of rules that worked in all 
>>situations, but I haven't yet found any.
> 
>Why do you say it would be nice?  What, specifically, would be nice
>about it?
> 

Easier.

- Peggy -
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: drake+@cs.cmu.edu (Drake)
Subject: Re: Pentagrams
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 06:54:44 GMT

>>Everyone is familiar with the upside down cross and
>>crucifix, and the pentagram pointing down.

The inverted cross is better known to Catholics as St Peter's Cross, used as
a symbol of that saint who (as legend has it) begged to be crucified thus
because he was unworthy to be crucifed in the same manner as his Savior.
Is that a Satanic symbol, then?

>>Other symbols are the
>>Egyptian heiroglyph (sp?) for "life"; a + with a circle on the
>>bottom.  (I think that's what it means).

Well, I've never seen it as you describe it...the name for it as an ankh,
and I've always seen it with the loop on top.  It was never associated
with Satanism to my knowledge until the advent of the Temple of Set, which
(I think) uses it in the "normal" fashion.

>Hmmm. I suppose the "reversal" bit _is_ possible, but I do not see how an
>upright pentagram was ever seen to be "good". Perhaps a subtle insult to
>the entrenched occult orders of the time... 

Note that the pentagram was also used early on by some Christian groups.

>As far as Satanists inverting the Lord's prayer & whatnot, this form of 
>adolescent posturing is left to adolescents as far as I know. The Satanists
>I know (including meself) are a bit beyond such mindless parody of 
>christianity.

The only place so far where I have come across this sort of thing was
in a book called _Mastering Witchcraft_ by Paul Huson.  It is claimed
to be an initial step in setting yourself free from the Judeo-Xian
culture in which you were raised.  At the time, I took it seriously...
but hey, I was only 9, so whaddya expect?



-- 
Love and Laughter,             | NOTE: Private mail must go explicitly
Xeper and Remanifest,          | to drake@seismo.soar.cs.cmu.edu
                       DRAKE   | or it'll bounce back to you...
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: mark.terka@rose.com (mark terka)
Subject: Re: Sex? Magic??
Organization: Rose Media Inc, Toronto, Ontario.
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 03:28:17 GMT
X-Gated-By: Usenet <==> RoseMail Gateway (v1.70)


Date Entered: 01-03-93 22:23
 T(> I note that you have previously separated 'Paganism' from 'Satanism'
 T(> and here you categorize someone's practices (on the information you've
 T(> presented to us?) as 'lurid tales of sexual brainwashing by obscure
 T(> cults'.  

 T(> I suggest that there is much more overlap between Satanism and
 T(> Paganism than may be apparent (follow ups to alt.satanism and/or
 T(> alt.paganism where Pagans will become VERY upset at such a suggestion)
 T(> and that without additional information about this group and its
 T(> practice we cannot really make a fair judgement about whether or not
 T(> they are either 'obscure' or 'brainwashing people'.  Perhaps you can
 T(> help me to understand you more by telling me how you'd answer these
 T(> questions: 

 Agreed...I think there IS a lot of overlap between the two points..
                                                                    
 T(> What is brainwashing?

Defined by a Random House Dictionary:

"A method for changing attitudes or beliefs esp through torture, drugs or
psychological stress techniques..
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Which fits in with what we are talking about here..
                                                   
 T(> Where does mysticism within an organization become 'brainwashing'?

To serve an unethical end (such as the material aggrandizement by the
leaders) as opposed to the original philosophy postulated by the overall
sects teachings..

 T(> What is sex magick?

The use of the sex act (either hetero/homo) in ritual context to achieve
magical energies otherwise unattainable through conventional Magickal
Ritual.
       
 T(> How did you come to determine that they were engaged in brainwashing
 T(> rather than sex magick?

Sorry...here is where the quote was poorly structured in that it only
included the first part of the author's hypothesis that it consisted of
a brain washing technique.

... ----->|*  MARK!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
---
   RM 2.00 : RoseNet<=>Usenet Gateway : Rose Media 416-733-2285
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: sfoley@uumeme.chi.il.us (Sean M. Foley)
Subject: Re: My postings of Orgone Committee Stuff
Organization: UUMEME Public Access Xenix
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 92 20:59:15 GMT

In article <1992Dec27.082756.5159@primerd.prime.com> jasonp@bungie.Prime.Com (Jason Pascucci) writes:
>We find ourselves not totally repulsed by this (quite potentially 
>mythical) idiological group of workers, but are thus far fairly 
>unimpressed.Their purpose is enough clear, their intent easily 
>enough disentangled. We recommend a more serious study of 
>discordianism. 
 I'm not going to insult this, as I know little about it :)
>One wonders whether these groups actually exist, or are but
>products of a deranged imagination. 
>
>As a personal note, the 'History' is the most amusing of
>the lot, with second being the Neo-Thelmoid College.
>The least amusing was the description of the Astral
>Meeting place, whose description could have been 
>thought out much better, and whose #1 test is completely
>fallicious, for the obvious reasons. 
 Agreed, while projecting the world is as malleable as mashed-potatoes. 
The only reliable test is the noted awareness change... In a standard dream
(for me) things are alot less clear, nor do I have the ability to move with
choice. A major difference for me is the sensation.. While totally 
"projecting" I can physically feel things.. I don't do the same when normally
dreaming; I usually don't "remember" most of a dream, either. But, generally
it's impossible for me to miss a projection, when it starts it feels like a 
surge of electricity is pouring through me; I also hear this odd high pitched
tone(difficult to describe, you either hear it or you don't), anyway, the
intensity builds up and gets quite odd feeling, then I'm out and about :).
 (although, when I was starting, I could never get myself beyond the odd
feeling, it would make me strain an the attempt would fail>. As for locations
I'd recommend a physical place.. Getting to astral places like that are hard
as everyone has a DIFFERENT INTERPRETATION OF THE DESCRIPTION!
  (if we couldn't change "astral" things why is most of magick involved in
astral work?) <shaking head>.
 
>--
>Jason R. Pascucci
>jasonp@primerd.prime.com


-- 
| sfoley@uumeme.chi.il.us |       I only look like I have a clue.           |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                      Love is the Law, Love under Will
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: oispeggy@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (Peggy Brown)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Sex? Magic??
Date: 2 Jan 93 06:18:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <1993Jan01.223118.20106@rose.com>, mark.terka@rose.com (mark terka) writes...
> 
>Date Entered: 01-01-93 17:26
> I recently finished reading Parts of Donald Michael Kraig's book
> "Modern Magic - Eleven Lessons in the High Magical Arts". A very
> good book for either novice or expert.
> 
> Only one disturbing quote caught my eye, in the cahpter on Sex Magic.

Disturbing?

> He spoke of a sect "one organization I am familiar with has the leader
> determine sexual partners. this includes having to be in an adjacent
> room while your mate has intercourse with another person. This allows
> you to hear every sound."

Big deal.  If people decide to do this its their business.  
Question is, why bother with separate rooms?

- Peggy -
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: ladislas@sobeco.com (Ladislas A.)
Subject: My answers (was Re: ... Definitions of "evil")
Organization: Sobeco Ernst & Young
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1992 09:11:21 GMT


What follows is my answer(s) to my own questions as to what is the definition
of "evil".  Since the definitions are only my opinions, I don't see the need 
to begin each sentence with "IMO" or "IMHO".

"Evil" (as well as "goodness") is a sociological concept that cannot exist
without an action or intention within a specific time frame.  Hence, objects
or any non-living matter cannot be "evil".

Act or intention:

"Evil" as an act or intention is that which goes against the welfare (or 
alleged welfare) of a protagonist or protagonists.  As such, "evil" is always
relative to the parties involved.

Specific time frame:

An act or intention that goes against the welfare of a party is relative to
the time frame in which the ill effects occur in that such effects can bring
about improvements to the party's well-being at a later time.  The best
example that comes to mind is from a play I read in highschool: "_Enemy_Of_
The_People_".


I was asked by someone on this forum "how does this subject relate to magick?".
To answer that question:  concepts such as "good" and "evil" are often what
drives people to act a certain way, bring about certain changes.  Combine
the drive of a concept with a strong emotion and you end up with a very strong
purpose.  For ordinary people (those wielding little power), such
a purpose can make them accomplish great altruistic deeds or horrible 
atrocities (again, in a different time frame, the end results can change).
What happens when a mage who holds real power decides upon a purpose with
such a drive?  The 'what-ifs' implied by this question are far too numerous
to include here but, basically, the real question becomes:

How does a mage deal with the responsibility that comes with power?


To answer my questions 2 and 3, I've never read anywhere that Jesus labelled
acts as "good" or "evil".  His basic message was "if you want to thrive in a
society, you must be sociable".  The reason I put him in the picture is not
because he's a 'good dude'.  It's because of the many unerving details of his
life (as described in the gospels) that abound with similarities to parts of
the magister and events in the apprenticeship of the Adept.
As for "lumping" Crowley into this discussion, the "Do what thou wilt is
the whole of the law" phrase implies a rupture with accepted soc. concepts
in favor of a self-defined attitude towards responsibility.

Ladislas.
Newsgroups: alt.magick,alt.satanism