From: slzm9@cc.usu.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african.american
Subject: Re: Violence, defense & Islam
Date: 23 Jul 92 12:27:51 MDT
Organization: Utah State University

In article <cbc1.711876704@Ra.MsState.Edu>, cbc1@Ra.MsState.Edu (christopher b carey) writes:
> carl.camurca@wugate.wustl.edu!travel (Carl Camurca) writes:
> 
>>Hi everybody!
> 
> [Stuff deleted]
> 
>>BS>Jihad may also take violent forms.  But we are not talking about
>>BS>aribtrary violence here.  The Qur'an regulates the type of violence.
> 
>>BS>With all due respect to pacifist philosophers, be they Ghandi or Dr. King,
>>BS>a world-view which does not permit the use of force even in self-defense
>>BS>is not practical on a national level.  For example, if Nazi Germany
>>BS>invades you, you want to defend youself.   The Qur'an specifically
>>BS>permits the use of violence as a method of defense and a means to put
>>BS>an end to oppression.
> 
>>BS>Malcolm X, as a Muslim, said that he accepted the use of violence for defens
>>BS>against violence.  He said, in fact, that if the violence is in self-defense
>>BS>he wouldn't even call it "violence," he would call it "intelligence."  He
>>BS>said --and I am praphrasing-- "We are only non-violent to those who are
>>BS>non-violent to us."
> 
>>Well, now we got another problem. *WHO* defines, what "defense" is and
>>when it is necessary? Hitler was defending the lebensraum of the Aryan
>>race, Bush was defending the "free" world in Iraq, Grenada, Vietnam
>>etc., Breshnev defended The Only Ideology in Afghanistan, Khomeini
>>defended the Islam against the evil West, especially evil heretics
>>like Rushdi. Are the lyrics of the song "Cop killer" an appell for
>>self-defense? The German army knew a term called "Vorne-Verteidigung"
>>("forward defense"). What does this mean exactly? Doesn't it sound more
>>like attack? I mean, this is slippery ground, by this way "defense"
>>becomes quickly something different and uncontrollable.
> 
> Well, here's my version of the answer to the posed problem.
> Hitler struck first.

   See my post on Non-violence but I disagree here. The first blow
was struck at the end of WW I when in the terms of surrender Germany
was not given the ability to find there way out of their economic
mess. The western world struck this blow. No economic empowerment of the
Germans meant that eventually they would have to try to take what they
could not earn.

> Bush asked 'em to move, then moved in.  At least in Iraq.  I don't know
> about Vietnam, and Grenada is just a blur.

   But was it George's job to move them? Anyway how about Panama I noticed
you didn't bring that up. Is it ok for a country to go into another
country, kill innocent civilians, arrest a high ranking official,
take him back and try him under the laws of a country that he is not
a citizen of? This is what we did in Panama. If you answer yes then
it should also be ok for:

   Hussein to send forces that land in Washington, make George Bush
a prisoner take him back to Iraq, try him for war crimes, and then
lock him up for life.

			OR

   The Saudi government to send undercover cops to the U.S. arrest
military officers that smuggled alcohol into Saudi Arabia during
the war, take them back to Saudi Arabia and try them.

   That all ok with you, too.

> Breshnev attacked first.
> Khomeini I'm not sure about.
> 
> I've got nothing against people defending themselves, and I think more
> people should follow Malcom's words as paraphrased above.
> 
> I've never been violent towards a person just for being a certain pigment.
> I have however felt threatened by a group of people who looked like
> they meant me ill.  All different colors.
> 
> I don't agree with people going out and doing random violence, but if
> anyone were to pull a knife on me, and I could, I'd kill him/her with
> no problems about it.
> 
> Anyone disagree with this philosiphy???
>

   Yes, vehemently. Chris think about this. If everyone had followed
this philosophy then most slaves would have been killed by southerners
near the end of the civil war. There would have been no evidence.
If this had happened you probably wouldn't be here right now.
   My point is that without forgiveness we are doomed. So disarm
this person, or run away, but don't kill him/her.
 
> Chris Carey.
> 
> --
> Got those wishing I was out of school so I could see my girl on
> a regular basis blues.
> 


Peace, but not without justice,
Zip