From: ceb@dbrus.unify.com (Caroline E. Bryan)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: dealin w/atheist
Date: 17 Apr 92 02:15:42 GMT
Organization: /usr/lib/news/organization

In article <Apr.15.04.34.34.1992.4608@dumas.rutgers.edu> MVS104@psuvm.psu.edu writes:
>In article <Apr.14.03.49.23.1992.14245@dumas.rutgers.edu>, ceb@dbrus.unify.com
>(Caroline E. Bryan) says:
>>
>>I'm one heartbeat, one breath away from death and perfect understanding.  Why
>>do you think that the closer I get to God the less I should believe in Him?
>>Wouldn't it be more logical to believe in Him *more* as I get closer to Him?
>
>I suppose it would be probable that as someone gets older, and the threat
>of death looms ever closer, one would want to believe in god to get eternal
>life...Nothing logical about it, but I guess it's likely. As for "getting
>closer," I don't see it. You're always close to death, it only becomes more
>probable. You're not getting any closer to death until you die.

Huh?  Let's substitute unemotional symbols for emotional words so I can fig-
ure out what you think I'm saying.

me = I   death = D  God = G

my post:    ID      (I am close to death)
	    I --> G (I am getting closer to God)

your post:  I --> D (you say that I say I'm getting closer to death)

Oh, you are equating God with death!  That's where the misunderstanding lies!
No, no, no, God is LIFE, not death!  No wonder you didn't understand me at
all!

>>Any image of God is by definition inaccurate, because it is an image and not
>>Himself....
>
>One would think, from what was said earlier, that it would be possible for
>Mr. Omnipotence to make the "image" correct. 

It's possible for me to take my office scissors and go stab the guy respon-
sible for giving us a deadline right after Holy Week, so that with overtime,
choir rehearsals, more and longer church services, and my Easter dress still
needing hemming I have no time for trivial things like washing the kitchen
floor and planting the marigolds.  But that doesn't mean that as soon as I've
finished this post I'm going to pick up my scissors and head across the hall.
It *is* possible for God to force us to see Him for what He really is.  But
God, too, has free will, and He chooses not to, for He wants *us* to have
free will, and choose to trust and love Him of our own volition.  Coerced
love is no love at all -- just asked a woman who's been raped.

> Well, if you say he can't, then we might as well reduce his power down some
> from all-powerful. 

Martin Schulte says He can't.  I say He can.  God does not force Martin 
Schulte to his knees and force his vocal chords and tongue to praise Him,
because God knows that kind of prayer and praise is absolutely worthless.
Wouldn't you agree?  God would much prefer that Martin Schulte awaken to
God's love and compassion for him, and that Martin Schulte choose to accept
God's love and compassion, and that Martin Schulte choose to love Him.
That's the only kind of relationship that's worthwhile -- one that is freely
entered into by both parties.

> Also, anyone who "finds God," so to speak, has only an image--and it is
> therefore inaccurate, by your reckoning.

If a person has an image of God, then yes, indeed, that person has an image
of God.  Your logic is impeccable.  If A, then A.  But what if a person 
doesn't have an image of God?  Does a person who doesn't have an image of
God, have an image of God?  If !A, then A?  If a person finds an image of
God, by definition s/he has not found God.  Likewise, if a person finds 
God Himself, by definition s/he has not found an image.


Carrie		ceb@dbrus.unify.com	x6244   ------------------------------+
|   "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then there will be   |
|   peace."					-- Anon.		      |
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