From: ervan@rice.edu (Ervan Darnell)
Subject: Re: radio waves as public property
Originator: ervan@athene.cs.rice.edu
Reply-To: ervan@rice.edu (Ervan Darnell)
Organization: Rice University
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 17:54:20 GMT


cmk@athena.mit.edu (Charles M Kozierok) writes:
> 
> In article <C12KC7.6By@rice.edu> ervan@rice.edu (Ervan Darnell) writes:
> >
> >To make the case with respect to this particular question
> >(before backing up to the original one about radio waves),
> >let me use a different example: I wake up one morning to find
> >a washing machine on my front yard.  As far as I am concerned,
> >this is something dumped on me.  I intend to send it out with
> >the garbage (if possible).  The garbage truck comes the next
> >morning.  The dumper comes the next evening and wants his
> >washing machine back.  Do I have to go to the landfill to get it?
> >Have I wronged the previous owner?  No.  It seems to me entirely
> >the opposite, he owes me the garbage fee.  Does it matter if
> >it was working?  No.  Does it matter if I use it instead of
> >having it hauled away?  I cannot see that it does.  I was able
> >to have it hauled away because it was my property when it
> >was dumped on my yard.  Likewise, since it is my property,
> >I can use it.
> 
> i agree with your consequences, but not your reasoning. as far as i
> am concerned, his leaving his machine on your property removes his
> rights to its use, or to preventing you from using it, or disposing
> of it; that does *not* mean you own it. you have the right to
> remove it to the landfill simply by virtue of the fact that it
> is "trespassing"... that does not require nor mean that you "own" it.

We agree on the conclusion with respect to the book and the radio 
waves for the same reason, you cannot be obligated to treat what
is 'given' to you unrequested in any particular way.  Yes?

Having said that, I find your notion acceptable but slightly odd.
If I understand it, you mean to say that I can use whatever is 
dumped on my property, but I am obligated to return it to the
rightful owner under certain circumstances.  What are those
circumstances?  Do I have to go to the dump to get it?  Do I have
to go to the trouble of unhooking a washing machine that could
require hours of my time to move everything in the garage?
What schedule do I have to do these things on?  Do I have to
go to any effort whatsoever on behalf of the owner?  If
the answer is 'no', then I cannot see how your position is
indistinguishable from mine.  I can do anything I want with the
object in question and could object to any request to return it.
If the answser is 'yes', that seems to contradict what I
thought we agreed on as stated in the previous paragraph.

The only way out that I see is to propose a 'reasonableness'
standard about how much effort I would have to go to return
such property.  Would you care to propose such a standard?

> i realize that i am entering the fray somewhat late so forgive
> me if what i say has already been covered, but i fail to see
> how radio waves are "property" at all, other than intellectual
> property. they cannot be compared to even the air -- they represent
> only coded vibrations of physical matter, and as such they are
> really not "ownable".

It's true that one does not own the particular photons that compose
the signal.  I think what is being owned in this case
is the content carried in those signals.  However one wants to
construe that physically, there is definitely a time when the
content is physically on (in) one's property.

> 
> i think broadcasting should be treated the same as publishing --
> you have the right to listen to the broadcast, but not re-distribute
> it. i am not yet sure of encrypted broadcasts, because the encryption
> implies an effort at privacy.

I agree.