From: smithmc@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Lost Boy)
Subject: Re: Scientists debunk astrology...and what else?
Organization: Purdue University Computing Center
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 18:38:42 GMT

In article <1ehr5oINNb2e@transfer.stratus.com> tarl@coyoacan.sw.stratus.com (Tarl Neustaedter) writes:
>In article <BxzEqs.LHA@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> smithmc@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Lost Boy) writes:
>> [magic is as valid as science]
>me>I am not alone in disagreeing with this statement. Several centuries of
>me>research stand behind me.
>>[...]
>>All magickal phenomena have a scientific basis. Many are still quite
>>impressive. The best scientist is a curious one; if you are curious enough
>>to consider for yourself wheither the evidence presented in the above
>>texts is valid, then by all means do so.
>
>My apologies. I flamed without making any useful commentary. I was insulted
>by your stated equivalence of science and magic.

No problem. I understand how one might confuse the two.
>
>Perhaps we have a terminology difficulty here? What is Magick? I assumed you
>meant Magic, or similar practices involving the supernatural, none of which
>will reproduce under the glare of klieg lights.

Okay, here we go.
Science is basically organized knowledge. We all know that. Science is also
very reliable because we can back our claims up with real-world experiments
and reams of data.
Magick is not science. Very simply, magick is comminication between the 
subconscious and the conscious. A lot of people think that it is such 
things as casting fireballs &c. It is much more subtle and divine than  this.
By using the symbols that people communicate with in literature, religion and
art, one can "unlock the  subconscious," in effect allowing them to use their
intuition to the best of their ability. I can't go into a hell  of a lot
of detail here, but basically it goes  beyond strict logic and science
and into the area of psychology (note that I do not go into parapsychology;
there is data to sugggest that "psychic powers" exist, but such data
is obtained by intellectually dishonest means most of the time.)

If I had to put it simply, magick is the  art of reaching your subconscious.
It has some things to do  with physics and biology and so on,  but is 
mostly taking greater control  of your  own mind and body.

Please note that I wholeheartedly disclaim any connections to people who 
claim  that they can summon literal demons, or throw fireballs, or create
force fields, &c, &c. 

>Can you provide us with an example of a phenomena that you regard as Magick?

	A man in Siberia, as part of his initiation into the circle of
shamans, climbs a long post. As he does this, he is "granted" a vision.
There are two possible explainations: 1- that the post is a symbol of
power and climbing it sets off bells and whistles in the mind which cause
the induvidual to realize something s/he did not realize before. Thus
the vision. 2- A rather outlandish but still somewhat possible explaination:
that the electical potential  in the induvidual increases as s/he climbs
the post and the change in potential has a physiological effect which
causes the man to halucinate. 

>The libraries to which I have easy access do not own copies of the books
>you mention.

I see how this can be a problem. A  less scientific but more relevant  work
is The Tao of Symbols by James Powel. YOu can get it for $8

Look, I'm sure that people in this group are ticked that this thread is
getting so much attention. Please email me for further discussion. Even
if you don't take me seriously, it  would save the others a  lot of  
trouble.

Thanks.
>	Tarl
>-- 
>         Tarl Neustaedter	tarl@sw.stratus.com
>         Marlboro, Mass.	Stratus Computer
>Disclaimer: My employer is not responsible for my opinions.

Mike Smith