HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: kcochran@nyx.cs.du.edu (Keith "Justified And Ancient" Cochran)
Subject: Childbirth is not a walk in the park...
Summary: It sounds like hospitals are going too far... 
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Keywords: You expect me to mark my deletions?  Dream on... 
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 92 11:22:40 GMT

In article <!sqz=8m@rpi.edu> cookc@aix.rpi.edu (rocker) writes:
>nyikos@math.scarolina.edu (Peter Nyikos) writes:
>>In <fpjz-2h@rpi.edu> cookc@aix.rpi.edu (rocker) writes:
>
>>>Why have we not seen similar concern from you about the agony of
>>>childbirth?  Myself, I am angry at birth mills for not offering
>>>anesthesia as a matter of course.  In fact, the refusal of the
>>>medical staff to provide painkillers has created needless misery
>>>in the birth experiences of many women.  Does _this_ sort of thing
>>>horrify you, or are you only horrified when an abortion is involved?
>
>>It would horrify me if I saw evidence this actually existed.
>
>Have you ever looked into it?  

Well, HisOldBuddy Charles hasn't mentioned it, so it must not exist...

>
>>Kindly give examples of medical staff refusing to give painkillers
>>in the present-day USA.
>
>I was refused an epidural for over 1.5 days.  First in a birthing
>center, then in a hospital.  
>
>I never did receive an epidural.  When I remember the "birth
>experience", all I remember is exhaustion, misery, being ignored
>by the staff of the baby mill, but most of all, soul-searing pain.

Sounds like the hospitals are going too far in the wrong direction.  When
my Mother was giving birth, she got painkillers whether she wanted it or
not.  Saddleblock, and general anethesia.

Sigh.  When are they going to learn to *LISTEN* to their patients?

--
=kcochran@nyx.cs.du.edu | B(0-4) c- d- e++ f- g++ k(+) m r(-) s++(+) t | TSAKC=
=My thoughts, my posts, my ideas, my responsibility, my beer, my pizza.  OK???=
=National Coming Out Day is Oct 11th, 1992. Closets Are A Place To Put Clothes=
From: mikeq@aspen.CNA.TEK.COM (Mike Quigley)
Newsgroups: talk.abortion
Subject: Three good arguments for abortion
Date: 28 Sep 92 20:01:02 GMT
Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Redmond,  OR.

``3500 acre wildfire destroys 32 homes in Wenatchee, Washington. The
fire was started by three youths trying to start a campfire in tinder
dry grassland during a 60 mph wind.''

       Whaddya mean there's no good argument for abortion!
Newsgroups: talk.abortion
Subject: Re: Walking down to the student center last night
From: mcbeanb@brandonu.ca
Date: 6 Oct 92 11:50:50 CST
Organization: Brandon University, Brandon, Manitoba, Canada

In article <1059@bug.UUCP>, stevef@bug.UUCP (Steven R Fordyce) writes:
> In article <1992Sep30.201558.6773@pwcs.stpaul.gov> chrisl@stpaul.gov
> (Chris A Lyman) writes:
> |stevef@bug.UUCP (Steven R Fordyce) writes:
> |> If you are going to argue about words, you ought to at least look
> |> them up.
> |
> |Why didn't you?
> 
> Oh, for-crying-out-loud!  I did.  I checked three different dictionaries.
> I wouldn't have said that if I hadn't.  What more do you want?
 [...]
> |These are silly assertions, based on a non-standard definition of 'child.'
> |
> |	child - a young person, esp. between infancy and adolescence
> |
> |That's a standard definition.  Anything else?
> 
> Yes, all three dictionaries included as part of the second definition
> "unborn offspring".  Some also included "fetus".  Haven't you ever heard
> the phrase, "she is with-child"?

Well I checked three dictionaries too (even a couple thesauruses and
a crossword dictionary too!), and not one of them mentioned
"unborn" but there is mention of offspring.  In each of these three
dictionaries, "offspring" is defined as "progeny", and "progeny"
is defined as "offspring"....  Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
From a geneticists point of view, I would wholly believe that
a zygote is considered to be offspring, but from the general use
of the term "*off*spring" you'd think the entity would have to be
"off" the body (maybe it sprang off after labour)...  Seems pretty
iffy to me.  I guess I need better dictionaries.
 
Brian McBean  -  McBeanB@BrandonU.Ca
Newsgroups: talk.abortion
From: keegan@acm.rpi.edu (James G. Keegan Jr.)
Subject: Re: apology to overpeck
Organization: T.S.A.K.C.
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 23:54:51 GMT

In <1992Sep29.142914.20696@acd4.acd.com> wdo@TEFS1.acd.com (Bill Overpeck) writes:
->In <+pjzwyh@rpi.edu> keegan@acm.rpi.edu 
->   (James G. Keegan Jr.) writes: >
->> p.s. bill - how are you coming with that problem you're
->>			having? you know, the one where you deny the
->>			existance of an answer from me which you even
->>			replied to?

->Keegan, you are dishonest. 

projecting again, bill?

Xref: sparky talk.abortion:40741 alt.abortion.inequity:4260
From: decay@cbnewsj.cb.att.com (dean.kaflowitz)
Newsgroups: talk.abortion,alt.abortion.inequity
Subject: Re: Not a flame (was Re:
Date: 6 Oct 92 12:07:47 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: AT&T

In article <Bvo0B1.B5C@cs.psu.edu> beaver@castor.cs.psu.edu (Don Beaver) writes:
> In article <1992Oct4.145515.622@cbnewsj.cb.att.com> decay@cbnewsj.cb.att.com (dean.kaflowitz) writes:
> >In article <1992Oct4.021610.26620@zooid.guild.org> Will Steeves <goid@zooid.guild.org> writes:
> >> regard@hpsdde.sdd.hp.com (Adrienne Regard) writes...
> > >> In article <1992Sep25.185248.15614@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU> c164-ad@po.berkeley
> >> MG>  (Martin Guerrero) writes:
> >> MG> >We all want real change.
> >> 
> >> AR> Who's "we", white man?
> >> 
> >> White man?  ...  hardly warrants a flame based upon his race...
> >
> >Adrienne was obviously refering to an old joke involving Tonto
> >and the Lone Ranger.  It's a very well-known joke.  It was
> >clearly not a flame based on race, and if one knows the joke,
> >which I am sure most people reading this group do, there is a
> >point to using the punch-line here.  One can only construe it
> >as a racial remark if one is stretching pretty hard for an
> >excuse to flame Adrienne.
> 
> I don't read misc.humor and I never heard the joke.
> Would you publish it?
> 
> 
> >  I haven't read any other follow-up
> >articles to this one yet, but I won't be surprised to see a
> >good deal of that stretching as soon as I send this article.
> 
> I'm not stretching, and I found it to be a reprehensible remark
> not even worth a reply.  If indeed there is a common joke, then
> I'd be "happy" to change my conclusion -- although there wasn't 
> any context to suggest otherwise.

Sure, but first let me say that I saw a Peter Nyikos post the
other day in which he used one of the alternative forms of
the punchline.  His said "What you mean 'we,' paleface?"

Also, someone else posted the whole joke, but maybe you didn't
see it.

Here's a short form.

Tonto and the Lone Ranger are riding along on the range when
suddenly they look up and see they are completely surrounded
by hostile Native Americans.

"Well old buddy, it looks like we aren't going to make it
this time," said the Lone Ranger.

"What you mean 'we,' white man?" said Tonto.

I know, I know.  My ribs aren't exactly aching either.  But
I did find it funny when I forst heard it twenty or more
years ago.

Dean Kaflowitz
Newsgroups: talk.abortion
From: kauff@neit.cgd.ucar.edu (Brian Kauffman)
Subject: Re: Nyikos Does NOT Hold that Abortion is Murder?
Organization: NCAR, Boulder CO
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 17:40:45 GMT

>] = nyikos@math.scarolina.edu (Peter Nyikos) writes:
>  = drieux@wetware.com (drieux, just drieux) writes:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>] Since this thread has gone on for so long, I thought I'd answer
>] the question, even though I answered it on other threads:
>] 
>] No. I consider it to be homicide.  Next question.
>
>Well Thank You for Clearing that Up....
>
>All these Years I had thought Murder was Homicide,
>and Now I can see the Clear Difference....
>
>ciao
>drieux
>
>ps: do you also hold that minus one is a positive number?

Look, this is how the semantic game is played:

Game #1)
  player 1) says "Positive and negative are the same thing"
  player 2) says "That ridiculous"
  player 1) says "No it's not.  I've defined 'positive' as meaning
		  both 'positive' and 'negative'"
  player 2) says "OK, fine, but then we'll need new words that
		  capture the old meanings of 'positive' & 'negative'"
  player 1) is not listening, he's already run off to inform the rest
	    of the world that "positive and negative are the same thing"

Game #2)
  player 1) says "Homicide and abortion an embryo are the same thing"
  ...

-Brian
Newsgroups: talk.abortion
From: keegan@acm.rpi.edu (James G. Keegan Jr.)
Subject: Re: Some people think I got scared off..
Keywords: NOT!
Organization: T.S.A.K.C.
Distribution: world 
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1992 12:02:27 GMT

the chaneyhall thing posting as
chaneysa@nextnet.csus.edu (Stephen A Chaney) writes:

->Of course, some of us are getting a college education.

who said the little tyke didn't have a sense of humor?

Newsgroups: talk.abortion
From: Larry Margolis <margoli@watson.ibm.com>
Subject: Re: The fetus as a member of the human race (Ref: Ray)
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1992 08:07:24 GMT
Distribution: usa
Reply-To: margoli@watson.IBM.com
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: The Village Waterbed

In  <90568@netnews.upenn.edu>  kwelch@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (sussurra e grida) writes:
> Larry
> >Kevin
> >> Larry
>
> >> >But it actually exists, so clearly it's a "being".  I cannot honestly
> >> >believe that you think a being that is human cannot be called a "human
> >> >being" - after all, you're doing the same thing for the zygote.
>
> >> There is a grave difference, Larry, between a being that is human and a
> >> human being.
>
> >I'm glad you see this, Kevin.  The former can refer to a sperm, egg, zygote,
> >etc., but the latter refers to a person.
>
> Actually, the last term is incomplete in meaning.  Legally, it refers to a
> born Homo sapien.  Biologically, it refers to a Homo sapien, the correct
> designation of the word.

I wasn't aware that "person" was a biological term; can you point
me to a reference?

> >> To call a sperm a human being is inappropriate because the
> >> term human being biologically, philosophically and legally connotes that the
> >> being is a borne human (member of Homo sapien)
>
> >Right, that's what human being means.
>
> To NOT tell the truth does not mean that one lies.  To NOT lie does not mean
> one has told the truth.  A being that is human is not a human being.

OK, so a zygote is not a human being.  Glad we finally cleared that up.

> >> or is the result of the
> >> unification of a sperm and an egg, a fertilized ovum.
>
> >No, that's a being that is human.
>
> A sperm is a being that is human in origin.  Hold the difference to be that
> the creation of a zygote is a genetic human being...

No, they're both beings that are human, but you just agreed that that does
*not* imply a human being.

Larry Margolis, MARGOLI@YKTVMV (Bitnet), margoli@watson.IBM.com (Internet)
Newsgroups: talk.abortion
From: kevin@rotag.mi.org (Kevin Darcy)
Subject: Re: rights and responsibilities
Keywords: significant words from a document used as an index to content
Organization: Who, me???
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1992 21:20:54 GMT

In article <waddell.718066049@fig.cs.scarolina.edu> waddell@cs.scarolina.edu (Jeff Waddell) writes:
>varney@sage.cc.purdue.edu (Bruce Varney) writes:
>
>
>[Argument deleted]
>
>>	But to your questions. I realize that the complications of
>>pregnancy are more than just inconvenient. But they are not as bad 
>>as death (exceptions noted, and spoken on many times over). Abortion
>>always ends in death. I would not kill someone to cure myself of 
>>a sickness (especially a non-chronic, non-lethal one). No one should be
>>allowed to do so.
>
>I hate to interject in your wonderful (ahmm) debate, but this statement 
>that you make above Mister Varney, I happen to find quite objectionable
>because it implies that you view pregnancy as an ILLNESS.  To me, it
>most definately is not--and therefore your comparision makes no sense.

In the cases we're discussing, it's an unwanted medical condition, surely: is 
"illness" such an inaccurate description for such a thing? Perhaps you would 
prefer "disease", taken in the old sense of "dis-ease", i.e. something that 
puts one ill at ease (?). Given some of the incredible inaccuracies flung 
around here, e.g. "unborn child", I don't think calling pregnancy an illness 
is really that bad. Of course, if you can think of a better, concise 
description, you're certainly welcome to propose one... 

								- Kevin
From: beaver@castor.cs.psu.edu (Don Beaver)
Newsgroups: talk.abortion,soc.men,alt.abortion.inequity
Subject: Re: Guilty of ... Thoughtcrime!
Date: 1 Oct 92 19:42:12 GMT
Article-I.D.: cs.BvGK2D.L6w

In article <1af1tqINNcvn@hpsdde.sdd.hp.com> regard@hpsdde.sdd.hp.com (Adrienne Regard) writes:
>In article <1992Sep30.214655.1@fnalno.fnal.gov> holzman@fnalno.fnal.gov (Daniel B. Holzman) writes:
>>In article <1a9smmINN59v@hpsdde.sdd.hp.com>, regard@hpsdde.sdd.hp.com 
>>(Adrienne Regard) writes:
>>> MAYBE you shouldn't make such statements, Will.
>>> MAYBE you shouldn't even think things like that, Will.
>>> MAYBE you should come to the realization that women are separate individuals
>>> from you and actually do have thoughts, feelings, and wills of their own.
>>> And are not answerable to *you*.
>>For the sake of someone coming in late, what did Will say, and under what
>>circumstances?

[out-of-context statement deleted]

You seemed happy to quote the statement.  Now what about the circumstances?

Don
-- 
beaver@cs.psu.edu                       Opinions from the PC-challenged
From: regard@hpsdde.sdd.hp.com (Adrienne Regard)
Newsgroups: talk.abortion
Subject: Re: PRO "LIFE" IS B......T!
Date: 29 Sep 1992 08:32:59 -0700
Organization: Hewlett Packard, San Diego Division
NNTP-Posting-Host: hpsdde.sdd.hp.com

In article <1992Sep29.092634.2832@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU> c164-ad@po.berkeley.edu (Martin Guerrero) writes:
>And if the supposed "quality of life" (the end) is achieved via
>abortion (the means), then the means would be a greater evil than the
>supposed lack of quality of life.

And if the supposed "life of the child" (the end) is achieved via
enslaving women (the means), then the means would be a greater evil than
the supposed lack of life of the child.

Adrienne Regard
Newsgroups: talk.abortion
Subject: Re: The fundamental question of abortion
From: Stafford@Vax2.Winona.MSUS.EDU (John Stafford)
Date: 30 Sep 92 12:35:18 -0600
Followup-To: talk.abortion,talk.religion.misc,alt.consciousness
 <nyikos.717186973@milo.math.scarolina.edu> <1992Sep23.214115.22475@jetsun.weitek.COM> <1992Sep25.061216.6633@trl.oz.au>
Distribution: world
Organization: MSUS

In article <1992Sep25.061216.6633@trl.oz.au>, jbm@hal.trl.OZ.AU (Jacques
Guy) wrote:
> 
> 
> Now *I* would sooner have a 4-month old fetus aborted, all right, let's 
> not be squeamish: I'd sooner KILL a 4-month old fetus than a 10-year old
> cat, or a 3-month old kitten, or puppy, or crow, for that matter. Because
> a cat, a dog, a crow of those ages display a higher consciousness than 
> a human fetus in the womb.         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^          ^^^^^^^^

Ah, but you don't really _know_ that.  Your metrics are obtuse.
From: bense@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Ron Bense)
Newsgroups: talk.abortion
Subject: Re: The fundamental question of abortion
Date: 30 Sep 92 12:20:24 GMT
Reply-To: bense@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Ronald Bense)
Organization: Carderock Division, NSWC, Bethesda, MD

In talk.abortion, chrisl@stpaul.gov (Chris A Lyman) writes:
>The truth of the matter is, Official Virus, is that I oppose the teaching of
>NFP because it does not work.  It makes about as much sense as including an
>ephemeris for the phases of the moon in the drivers' education curriculum.

Chris, I never said it should be taught as a method of birth control,
just that the information of NFP (The cycles, etc) would be information
on how the female body works, and that would be more than is taught
in many schools today. (Although I do admit that when I said other methods
of birth control, that could be misconstrued. Sorry for the ambiguous
statement.:) I agree with your cycles of the moon analogy, although
if that were to be taught in driver's ed, just the phases, and how they
come about, that would be more than many learn in school. :)

Ron                          Think about this one (seen on a bumper sticker):
			     The road to hell is bumper-to-bumper
			     Make a U-turn to God.
The irony is priceless.
From: sgast+@pitt.edu (Susan Garvin)
Newsgroups: talk.abortion
Subject: Re: Threats?
Date: 2 Oct 92 21:51:27 GMT
Organization: University of Pittsburgh

In article <1992Oct2.211200.17332@cs.yale.edu> rescorla@rtnmr.chem.yale.edu (Eric Rescorla) writes:
#In article <1992Oct2.171032.17861@ncsu.edu> dsholtsi@csl36h.csl.ncsu.edu (Doug Holtsinger) writes:
##In article <6692@blue.cis.pitt.edu.UUCP> sgast+@pitt.edu (Susan Garvin) writes:
### double standards.  DODie has said publicly that he won't
### criticze another pro-forcer on the net - he'll only
### do it in e-mail.  

##This is a lie.

#Whether he's said it or not, he just criticized Forgach.

I haven't seen it.

(Are you referring to the "I can't believe you said that"
article?  I don't call that criticism, I call that skepticism.
I'm still not convinced that it wasn't just a set-up line
for Suzanne, anyway.)

Susan
Newsgroups: talk.abortion
Subject: Re: I had an abortion two days ago
From: mcbeanb@brandonu.ca
Date: 4 Oct 92 14:06:14 CST
 <1992Sep30.185010.27982@netcom.com> <1992Oct1.070033.29228@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU> <1992Oct1.120742.15058@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>
Organization: Brandon University, Brandon, Manitoba, Canada

In article <1992Oct1.120742.15058@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>, gjh@galen.med.Virginia.EDU (Galen J. Hekhuis) writes:
> In article <1992Oct1.070033.29228@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU> c164-ad@po.berkeley.edu (Martin Guerrero) writes:
> 
> }The right to life is the most basic and fundamental right we have.  Without
> }a right to life, we cannot claim any other rights (possibly because we'd
> }be dead?)
> 
> Then why do you suppose so many American soldiers have died for freedom?

Because any young man would happily give his life for democracy? (not)

Brian McBean  -  McBeanB@BrandonU.Ca
From: nyikos@math.scarolina.edu (Peter Nyikos)
Newsgroups: talk.abortion
Subject: Re: The fundamental question of abortion
Date: 29 Sep 92 19:23:31 GMT
Organization: USC  Department of Computer Science

Note: I have removed talk.religion.misc from the newsgroups.

In <1992Sep26.172647.7776@csus.edu> chaneysa@nextnet.csus.edu (Stephen A Chaney) writes:

>In article <19qpavINNlq3@hpsdde.sdd.hp.com> regard@hpsdde.sdd.hp.com (Borg Name: Doofus) writes:
>>In article <nyikos.717270316@milo.math.scarolina.edu> nyikos@math.scarolina.edu (Peter Nyikos) writes:
>>>
>>>The Lady High Executioner And Lady High Everything Else of talk.abortion
>>
>>Note please.  I ask you not to use these terms.             

Is that you, Adrienne?  Chaney got overzealous and even put your Borg
Name up there.

>Then we'll give you a Borg name: DOOFUS. 

I don't get it, Steve.  I prefer names that are easily related to the
behavior of the person they are stuck to.  (If you have an explanation
for yours, I wish you'd share it.)

If Adrienne is too modest to accept the titles I've bestowed on her,
perhaps she might like "Cheshire Puss," for the way she fades into and
out of threads, leaving little more than a (-: behind.

I've got other ideas, but I'd like to hear her reaction to this one.

Peter Ny.
Newsgroups: talk.abortion,alt.abortion.inequity
From: hatcher@MSUPA.PA.MSU.EDU
Newsgroups: talk.abortion,alt.abortion.inequity,alt.birthright
Subject: Re: Don't just whine about media bias. Do something!
Date: 2 Oct 92 03:20:46 GMT
Reply-To: hatcher@MSUPA.PA.MSU.EDU
Organization: MSU Dept. of Physics & Astronomy

In article <1992Oct1.122821.28465@spectrum.xerox.com>, rgoers@gumdrop.Xerox.COM (Ron Goers) writes:
>In article <1ad7ldINNla@hpsdde.sdd.hp.com> regard@hpsdde.sdd.hp.com (Adrienne Regard) writes:
[discussin sex education, and it's current failure in lowering teen
pregnancy]
>>Somebody's lying to the kids?  Somebody's telling them there ain't no 
>>chance?  Boy, that's bad news. 
>
>You laugh, but it's true!  You are cordially invited to spend a day at
> your local HS, in a health class, during their sex education unit.  
> Do it.  It will be good for you.  

Ron, I and others have asked you 4 times now to break you lines; since
you seem to be incapable for doing something so simple, I have doubts
about your capacity for higher thought. (NO :-).  I'm tired of breaking
them for you.

In response to this, I have to laugh.  It's been quite a few years since
I was in HS and had sex education, but it's certainly NOT what they taught
me.  We were given information on failure rates for different methods
(including your favorite: abstinance).  I have to ask when was the last
time YOU sat in on such a class.  Could you please document such a claim;
a signed note by the HS biology teacher (that's where ours was) stating
that they teach the kids that using birth control methods is 100% effective
would be sufficient.  When you have note in hand, I'll send you my address.

It seems to me you're just making these things up as you go along...

>Ron Goers @ Xerox Corporation     Email: rgoers@iset.scan.mc.xerox.com

-robert (hatcher@msupa.pa.msu.edu)
Xref: sparky talk.abortion:39682 alt.abortion.inequity:4167 alt.birthright:491