HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: swoodcoc@oldcolo.com (Steven Woodcock)
Subject: Re: =>School Vouchers (Amendment 7)<=
Keywords: Education
Organization: The Good Guys, Inc.                                             
Distribution: co
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 03:57:45 GMT

In article <1992Oct8.022147.19845@colorado.edu> youngm@mica.Colorado.EDU (Matthew Young) writes:
>
>Amendment 7 grants a voucher for each K-12 student in Colorado, 
>to be redeemed by their parents at the school of their choice, whether
>public, private, or in-home. Competition will improve our public
>schools in the long run; alternatives will liberate our students today.
>This may be the only way to fix our government's failure in education.
>
>What do you think?

   I think it's a great idea.  It's about time that public schools learn
how to CARE about their students and their parents, and the only way
(apparently) to make them do this is true competition.  I have long thought 
it was ridiculous that people had to pay taxes for the schools and then,
should they want to send their kids to a private school, have to pay MORE
for that.  If the goal here is education, then why the current system
where I have to send my kids to a public school or (basically) pay twice
as much money?

   On a separate but related not, I violently disagree with the premise
that anyone WITHOUT kids should have to pay taxes to support public
education at all.  Yes, I do indeed believe that educating our children
is our best hope for the future, but I >>>shouldn't<<< be forced to pay
for it.  Convince me it's a good idea, show me how it helps me, but DON'T
force me.

Steven W.
One of the Good Guys


-- 
    "...Men will awake presently and be Men again, and colour and laughter and
 splendid living will return to a grey civilization. But that will only come 
 true because a few Men will believe in it, and fight for it, and fight in its
 name against everything that sneers and snarls at that ideal..."
Newsgroups: co.politics
From: wicklund@intellistor.com (Tom Wicklund)
Subject: Re: =>School Vouchers (Amendment 7)<=
Organization: Intellistor, Inc.
Distribution: co
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 92 01:25:19 GMT

In <1992Oct9.060411@eklektix.com> rcd@raven.eklektix.com (Dick Dunn) writes:

>I mean that there is very little control over the curriculum of a private
>school, and even less over "home-school".  (Digression: what is the minimum
>standard for the curriculum, and how is it measured?  I see nothing in the
>wording of the amendment to tell me what qualifies a school to receive the
>voucher money--is this something already established elsewhere?)

I'm sure the Legislature is allowed to set it.  But I think poor
curriculum is going to be the exception rather than the rule.  Few
people consistently accept poor quality unless they're forced into it.

>>[the religious-school objection]...To those concerned about using taxpayer
>>dollars for religious indoctrination in private schools I ask: Are you not
>>equally concerned about *government* indoctrination with taxpayer dollars in
>>government schools?...

>You bet I am!

>The dismantling of the US Constitution over the last two decades (which is
>when most, but not all, happened) would not have been possible without
>massive indoctrination, and it's done in the public schools.

>In fact, I can lump one concern about public-funded schooling for private
>and public schools together: I'm as concerned about what they *shouldn't*
>be teaching as I am about what they *should* be.

>... There's no safe bet what a school is going to teach; if we
>have to fund them, we can at least beat on the public school system to do a
>more honest job.

Can we?  There's been a lot of rhetoric about beating the public
schools into doing something, yet if anything they're going the other
way.  The current trend is toward accommodating groups, so we're nice
to American Indians, Blacks, etc.  Part of this trend is toward a more
balanced presentation while part is starting a whitewash in the other
direction.  Much of history (since it was the example) is a matter of
opinion and emphasis.  There are many ways to look at an issue and
often several of them are correct.

More and more the trend in education has been toward taking parents
out of the loop.  There are calls for parental involvement, but they
tend to be to have parents support the teachers, forcing their
students to do homework, show up for class, etc.  When it comes to an
educational decision, parents are obviously "not qualified" since they
don't have PhDs in education like the people who set school
curriculum today.

A further problem arises when different people have different opinions
about what should be taught.  Not matters of doctrine (who's religion
is correct) but about subject matter, at what grade should kids get a
choice of curriculum, etc.  One public school system forces all kids
into the same mold.

Newsgroups: co.politics
From: fcrary@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (Frank Crary)
Subject: Re: =>School Vouchers (Amendment 7)<=
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 03:18:45 GMT

In article <1992Oct12.224633@eklektix.com> rcd@raven.eklektix.com (Dick Dunn) writes:
>>Before making up your mind on Amendment 7, ask yourself why it is that the
>>group screaming loudest against School Vouchers is the Teacher's union.  If
>>something smells rotten, it probably is.

>This is completely _ad_hominem_.

>If you believe that the teachers are objecting to the amendment for invalid
>reasons, then say so, and say why their objections are invalid.  Don't just
>attack them because they're teachers.

>There is nothing wrong with the folks who have vested interests in an issue
>expressing their opinions on the issue. 

However, it is necessary to take their arguments with a grain of salt,
because of their vested interest (just as, for example, a policemen's
union's views on civilian police review boards need to be taken with
a grain of salt.)

>If their reasons make sense, they
>deserve careful thought.  If they don't make sense, or they're just
>covering their asses, then challenge on the basis of their reasoning, not
>on the basis of who they are.

Unfortunately, education isn't an exact science (in fact, it isn't even
really a vague science...) Outside of such sciences, almost _any_
argument can seem to make sense, no matter how false (consider Freud's
theories, that seemed to make sense to the extent people actually
believed and applied them for almost a century...)

>I suspect that teachers don't have anything to lose if vouchers are
>approved...
>...It would shift some teachers from public to
>private schools, of course.

However, the teachers in question are (for the most part) currently
employed by the public schools, and might not _want_ to shift to 
private schools. Further, they might not be _able_ to: Teacher's
unions have historically been strong opponents of merit-based pay
increases (which I think may imply something about their abilities
in general...), while private schools often hire, pay and (unlike any
public institution, in general) _fire_ based on ability. Unlike
government employees, private school teachers usually have to work
hard for job security.

Further, even thought teachers in general aren't necessarily to blame
for the state of public school education, they probably still
feel some responsibility and the voucher system might feel,
essentially, like an admission of failure to them.

                                             Frank Crary
                                             CU Boulder

Newsgroups: co.politics
From: rcd@raven.eklektix.com (Dick Dunn)
Subject: Re: =>School Vouchers (Amendment 7)<=
Organization: eklektix - Boulder, Colorado
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1992 21:33:27 GMT

jrbd@craycos.com (James Davies) writes:
>Many people (and the ACLU) conveniently ignore the fact that the free 
>exercise of religion is constitutionally protected in the same sentence
>that separates church and state.  If people want to use their vouchers 
>for religious schools, that's their business, not the government's.

Many people conveniently ignore the fact that the money for the vouchers
comes from PUBLIC funds.  It comes from taxes levied on everyone, not just
parents.

If people want to use their money for religious schools, then yes, that's
their business.  But the money for the vouchers isn't "theirs".

If I didn't see a couple thousand dollars a year coming out of my pocket
and going toward state funds for "education", I wouldn't have a complaint.
-- 
Dick Dunn    rcd@raven.eklektix.com   -or-   raven!rcd    Boulder, Colorado
   ...Never offend with style when you can offend with substance.
Newsgroups: co.politics
Newsgroups: sura.noc.status
From: "Merit Network Operations Center" <noc@merit.edu>
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 92 16:23:20 EDT
To: nsr@merit.edu
Subject: 10/10/92 ND (Univ of Notre Dame) Unreachable 15:48 EDT - ?

     10/10/92 ND (Univ of Notre Dame) Unreachable 15:48 EDT - ?
     due to environmental card problem in the cisco.
  
  
             -=- Jim j. Zemina
                 Merit Network Operations
Newsgroups: sura.noc.status
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 92 10:13:07 -0400
From: "Merit Network Operations Center" <noc@merit.edu>
To: nsr@merit.edu
Subject: re:  10/05/92 - 10/24/92 NSFNET/ANSNET Backbone Hardware Upgrade

10/05/92 - 10/24/92 NSFNET/ANSNET Backbone Hardware Upgrade 


This mornings scheduled upgrades on E128 Palo Alto and E144 Nasa Ames
are complete.

E128 Palo Alto was unreachable from 07:00 - 08:45 EDT
E144 Nasa Ames was unreachable from 07:00 - 09:40 EDT
The E144 Nasa Ames maintenance was extended because of problems
with a newly installed T1 card.

Selina Priestley
Merit Network Operations

------------

            We will be performing an upgrade to the NSFNET/ANSNET backbone
        between 10/5 and 10/24.  The changes include an upgrade to all DSU's 
        which will give us improved performance as well as better SNMP 
        capabilities.  We will be adding T1 interface cards and T1 ACSU's to 
        the T3 ENSS's in preparation for the installation of backup T1 circuits.
        There will also be a change to the current method of ACSU access.  
        Currently, out of band dialup is used.  This will change to inband SNMP 
        which will afford us better realtime monitoring capabilities.

            Each step in the upgrade will be a core node and its associated
        ENSS's.  The upgrades will be done during a 2 hour maintenance
        window beginning at 04:00 local time and ending at 06:00 local
        Time, except for the Ithaca ENSS 133 and Boston ENSS 134 
        upgrades scheduled for the first two hours of Saturday, 17 October. 

            The schedule for next week follows.  If you have any questions,
        please contact the Merit NOC at trouble@merit.edu or 1-800-9-NSFNOC.


                   Local
          Date     Time    EDT          Sites
        ---------  -----  -----        ------------------------------------------------
        Tue 10/13  04:00  07:00         San Diego ENSS 135
        Wed 10/14  04:00  05:00         Houston ENSS 139
        Thu 10/15  04:00  07:00         Palo Alto ENSS 128, Ames ENSS 144
        Sat 10/17  00:00  00:00         Ithaca ENSS 133, Boston ENSS 134
        Sat 10/17  04:00  04:00         College Park ENSS 136, Fix-East ENSS 145 


        Kraig Owen
        Merit Network Operations
Newsgroups: sura.noc.status
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 92 13:46:17 -0400
From: "Merit Network Operations Center" <noc@merit.edu>
To: nsr@merit.edu
Subject: 10/16/92  The SEB proteon p4200 was down from 10:18 - 13:17 EDT

    
   10/16/92  The SEB proteon p4200 was down from 10:18 - 13:17 EDT due 
   to Air Conditioning problems.
   
   SEB provides external network connectivity for the following:

   141.211.182.1   - Central Campus ITD CSS Ethernet
                       4-HELP
   141.211.184.1   - CSMIL Ethernet
   141.211.8.1     - Economics/Political Science Ethernet
   141.211.12.1    - Economics/Political Science Ethernet
   141.211.246.1   - School of Education Ethernet
   141.211.200.1   - Population Studies Center Ethernet
   141.211.220.1   - Law Library Ethernet
     
   Linda J. Vas
   Merit Network Operations
Newsgroups: sura.noc.status
From: "Merit Network Operations Center" <noc@merit.edu>
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 92 03:47:54 EDT
To: nsr@merit.edu
Subject: 10/11/92 Scheduled maintenance 00:01 - 06:00 EDT



        Between 00:01 and 06:00 EDT on 10/11/92 carriers will be
        performing scheduled maintenance on some of the circuits
        comprising the backbone.  The following sites will be
        affected during the maintenance window shown below:


                ENSS 135  San Diego(backed up by T1)
                ENSS 143  Univ of Wash(backed up by T1)

                NSS10     Ithaca       psp-10-15  Cern
                NSS17     Ann Arbor    psp-17-15  Concert 
     
                  
                UM (Univ of Michigan) at CICNET
                ND (Univ of Notre Dame) at CICNET


        These sites will be isolated during this time period for no
        more than 5 minutes.  In addition, there will be maintenance done 
        at some of the redundant core circuits.  This may affect customers 
        who are using the NSF-net backbone at this time.  
 
        Bill Nowak
        ANS Network Operations
Newsgroups: sura.noc.status
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 92 17:45:47 -0400
From: "Merit Network Operations Center" <noc@merit.edu>
To: nsr@merit.edu
Subject: 10/08/92 NSS 6 ENSS 135 San Diego Unreachable 17:10 - ? EDT


 10/08/92 NSS 6 ENSS 135 San Diego Unreachable 17:10 - ? EDT
 due to circuit problems.

 --Michael O'Neill
   ANS Network Operations
Newsgroups: sura.noc.status
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 92 12:33:58 -0400
From: K.A. Long <klong@sura.net>
To: status@sura.net
Subject: UMISS scheduled down


10/09/92	The University of Mississippi will be unreachable
23:00 - 24:00	for one hour while their circuit to the Jackson
		Mississippi POP is tested.


Kim Long
SURAnet Operations
Newsgroups: sura.noc.status
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 92 14:25:47 -0400
From: "Merit Network Operations Center" <noc@merit.edu>
To: nsr@merit.edu
Subject: 10/17/92 NSS 9 College Park Regionals Scheduled Maintenance 04:00 - 06:00 EDT

10/17/92 NSS 9 College Park Regionals Scheduled Maintenance 04:00 - 06:00 EDT
Ethernet card in local router will be replaced.

This will isolate the following regionals:

    The networks affected are:
        AS  701   Alternet Network               (backed up by AS 702 and T3)


Selina Priestley
Merit Network Operations
Newsgroups: sura.noc.status
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 92 11:20:43 -0400
From: "Merit Network Operations Center" <noc@merit.edu>
To: nsr@merit.edu
Subject: Correction:  re:  10/05/92 - 10/24/92 NSFNET/ANSNET Backbone Hardware Upgrade

10/05/92 - 10/24/92 NSFNET/ANSNET Backbone Hardware Upgrade 


This mornings scheduled upgrades on E128 Palo Alto and E144 Nasa Ames
are complete.

E144 Nasa Ames was unreachable from 07:00 - 08:45 EDT
E128 Palo Alto was unreachable from 07:00 - 09:40 EDT
The E128 Palo Alto maintenance was extended because of problems
with a newly installed T1 card.

This is a correction to an earlier message, which confused the
outage times for the two ENSSs.

Selina Priestley
Merit Network Operations

------------

            We will be performing an upgrade to the NSFNET/ANSNET backbone
        between 10/5 and 10/24.  The changes include an upgrade to all DSU's 
        which will give us improved performance as well as better SNMP 
        capabilities.  We will be adding T1 interface cards and T1 ACSU's to 
        the T3 ENSS's in preparation for the installation of backup T1 circuits.

        There will also be a change to the current method of ACSU access.  
        Currently, out of band dialup is used.  This will change to inband SNMP 

        which will afford us better realtime monitoring capabilities.

            Each step in the upgrade will be a core node and its associated
        ENSS's.  The upgrades will be done during a 2 hour maintenance
        window beginning at 04:00 local time and ending at 06:00 local
        Time, except for the Ithaca ENSS 133 and Boston ENSS 134 
        upgrades scheduled for the first two hours of Saturday, 17 October. 

            The schedule for next week follows.  If you have any questions,
        please contact the Merit NOC at trouble@merit.edu or 1-800-9-NSFNOC.


                   Local
          Date     Time    EDT          Sites
        ---------  -----  -----        -----------------------------------------
-------
        Tue 10/13  04:00  07:00         San Diego ENSS 135
        Wed 10/14  04:00  05:00         Houston ENSS 139
        Thu 10/15  04:00  07:00         Palo Alto ENSS 128, Ames ENSS 144
        Sat 10/17  00:00  00:00         Ithaca ENSS 133, Boston ENSS 134
        Sat 10/17  04:00  04:00         College Park ENSS 136, Fix-East ENSS 145
 


        Kraig Owen
        Merit Network Operations
Newsgroups: sura.noc.status
From: "Merit Network Operations Center" <noc@merit.edu>
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 92 22:28:54 EDT
To: nsr@merit.edu
Subject: 10/16/92 NSS 17 Ann Arbor Unreachable 21:52 - 22:15 EDT

10/16/92 NSS 17 Ann Arbor Unreachable 21:52 - 22:15 EDT due
to problems with the software on the rcp.  The following regionals
were reachable via the T3 backbone during this time.

 81 CONCERT
233 Merit Regional Network
237 Merit Regional Network
266 CICNET at MERIT

Stephen Powell
ANS Network Operations
Newsgroups: sura.noc.status
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 92 13:09:07 -0400
From: Tracy Bowers <tbowers@sura.net>
To: Status@sura.net
Subject: WVNET to SURA9




10/12/92	WVNET 
13:50	 	The Cisco router at West Virginia Network
		will taken down for a ROM upgrade.  Traffic
		that would normally routed through this gateway
		will take a different path; however nodes
		connected directly connected to this site
		will be unreachable.  They are:

			NRAO-GB  National Radio Astronomy 
                                 Observatory - Green Bank
			EWA      Electronic Warfare Association
			SAIM     Science Applications International
			WJC      Wheeling Jesuit College
		
		The upgrade will occur at approximately 17:00.




 ---<} Tracy Lee Bowers {>---
       tbowers@sura.net
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SURAnet                                          Southeastern Universities
Network Operations Center			   Research Association
College Park, Maryland                                                   
(301)982-3214                                      Email: noc@sura.net           
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: sura.noc.status
To: status@sura.net
Subject: CMB down
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 92 09:00:57 -0400
From: "Roy Alcala" <ralcala@sura.net>



10/11/92	Cumberland College down.
 09:00		Cumberland College is currently unreachable.  They
		are installing a new power transformer in their 
		building, and all of their systems are powered down.
		They expect to be back up tomorrow morning.


Roy Alcala
SURAnet Operations
(301) 982-3214
Newsgroups: sura.noc.status
To: status@sura.net
Subject: WB up
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 92 14:50:22 -0400
From: "Roy Alcala" <ralcala@sura.net>



10/11/92	World Bank up.
 14:50		The World Bank is back up.


Roy Alcala
SURAnet Operations
(301) 982-3214
Newsgroups: sura.noc.status
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 92 15:13:04 -0400
From: "Merit Network Operations Center" <noc@merit.edu>
To: nsr@merit.edu
Subject: 10/09/92 NOTIS  Unreachable 12:59 - 14:15 EDT


10/09/92 NOTIS  Unreachable 12:59 - 14:15 EDT
due to hardware problems.

--Michael O'Neill
  CICNET/ANSNET Operations
Newsgroups: sura.noc.status
To: status@sura.net
Subject: CNI down
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 92 08:25:30 -0400
From: "Roy Alcala" <ralcala@sura.net>



10/11/92	Coalition for Networked Information down.
 08:25		The Coalition for Networked Information is currently 
		unreachable.  No estimated uptime is known.


Roy Alcala
SURAnet Operations
(301) 982-3214
Newsgroups: sura.noc.status
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 92 15:11:48 -0400
From: "Merit Network Operations Center" <noc@merit.edu>
To: nsr@merit.edu
Subject: 10/13/92 Motorola will be down 19:00 - 20:00 EDT


10/13/92 Motorola will be down 19:00 - 20:00 EDT
This is to move the circuit from copper facilities to fiber.
Motorola will not be accessible during this service window.

   --- Jay Nugent
       Merit Network Operations Center
Newsgroups: sura.noc.status
From: "Merit Network Operations Center" <noc@merit.edu>
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 92 11:26:49 EDT
To: nsr@merit.edu
Subject: 10/10/92 CA*NET Regionals (Montreal) Down 04:14 - 09:48 EDT

     10/10/92 CA*NET Regionals (Montreal) Down 04:14 - 09:48 EDT
     due to problems with the circuit.

     The networks affected are:
         AS 603    CA*NET - Montreal          (backed up by AS 601 and AS 602)


             -=- Jim j. Zemina
                 Merit Network Operations
Newsgroups: sura.noc.status
From: "Merit Network Operations Center" <noc@merit.edu>
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 92 07:38:21 EDT
To: nsr@merit.edu
Subject: 10/10/92 CA*NET Regionals (Montreal) Down 06:00 EDT - ?

     10/10/92 CA*NET Regionals (Montreal) Down 14:00 EDT - ?
     due to local site problems in Princeton, NJ.

    The networks affected are:
        AS 603    CA*NET - Montreal          (backed up by AS 601 and AS 602)


             -=- Jim j. Zemina
                 Merit Network Operations
Newsgroups: sura.noc.status
From: "Merit Network Operations Center" <noc@merit.edu>
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 92 04:25:05 EDT
To: nsr@merit.edu
Subject: 10/13/92 nss18 (Atlanta) Intermittent connectivity 01:42 - 04:20 EDT


10/13/92 nss18 (Atlanta) Intermittent connectivity 01:42 - 04:20 EDT
due to circuit problems.

All networks announced via NSS 18 Atlanta were reachable via NSS 9
College Park.

	Bill Nowak
	ANS Network Operations
Newsgroups: sura.noc.status
From: "Merit Network Operations Center" <noc@merit.edu>
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 92 07:41:24 EDT
To: nsr@merit.edu
Subject: 10/12/92 nss18 (Atlanta) Unreachable 06:02 - 06:39 EDT


10/12/92  NSS18 (Atlanta) Unreachable 06:02 - 06:39 EDT
Due to circuit problems.

All networks announced via NSS 18 Atlanta should have been reachable 
via NSS 9 College Park.


	Bill Nowak
	ANS Network Operations
Newsgroups: sura.noc.status
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 92 11:53:05 -0400
From: "Merit Network Operations Center" <noc@merit.edu>
To: nsr@merit.edu
Subject: 10/05/92 - 10/24/92 NSFNET/ANSNET Backbone Hardware Upgrade


10/05/92 - 10/24/92 NSFNET/ANSNET Backbone Hardware Upgrade 

    We will be performing an upgrade to the NSFNET/ANSNET backbone
between 10/5 and 10/24.  The changes include an upgrade to all DSU's 
which will give us improved performance as well as better SNMP 
capabilities.  We will be adding T1 interface cards and T1 ACSU's to 
the T3 ENSS's in preparation for the installation of backup T1 circuits.
There will also be a change to the current method of ACSU access.  
Currently, out of band dialup is used.  This will change to inband SNMP 
which will afford us better realtime monitoring capabilities.

    Each step in the upgrade will be a core node and its associated
ENSS's.  The upgrades will be done during a 2 hour maintenance
window beginning at 04:00 local time and ending at 06:00 local
time, except for the Ithaca ENSS 133 and Boston ENSS 134 
upgrades scheduled for the first two hours of Saturday, 17 October. 

    The schedule for next week follows.  If you have any questions,
please contact the Merit NOC at trouble@merit.edu or 1-800-9-NSFNOC.


	   Local
  Date     Time    EDT		Sites
---------  -----  -----        ------------------------------------------------
Tue 10/13  04:00  07:00		San Diego ENSS 135
Wed 10/14  04:00  05:00		Houston ENSS 139
Thu 10/15  04:00  07:00		Palo Alto ENSS 128, Ames ENSS 144
Sat 10/17  00:00  00:00		Ithaca ENSS 133, Boston ENSS 134
Sat 10/17  04:00  04:00		College Park ENSS 136, Fix-East ENSS 145 


Kraig Owen
Merit Network Operations
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Newsgroups: sura.noc.status
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 92 16:17:32 -0400
From: Youthana Sivali <youth@sura.net>
To: status@sura.net
Subject: Memphis POP back up



10/14/92	The Memphis POP router is now back up and connectivity has
15:14-16:12EST  been restored to all affected sites.



Youthana Sivali
SURAnet Operations
(301) 982-3214


email to: noc@sura.net