From: mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman)
Subject: Attributed arms; heraldic consulting (was Re: pentacles on arms)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 16:06:59 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

Greetings from Arval!

This article replies to a collection of questions posted recently.  The
topic has drifted into the more abstruse realms of heraldry; I suggest that
we take further discussion to the heraldic mailing list or private mail.

I argued that attributed armory could be taken as a model for SCA armory
because it was treated like real armory, in particular because it appears
on rolls of arms with real armory.  Kwellend-Njal asked:

> Did the arms attributed to Gawain by the author of the story ever appear
> in a period roll of arms? 

Good question.  Not to the best of my knowledge.  Gawain was normally given
other arms, which appear in a wide range of literature and I believe on
some rolls.

I had asked:

> Since [attributed arms] sprang from the same culture which produced the
> real heraldry, and were treated as if they were real heraldry, why
> shouldn't we treat them the same way?  

Nicholas answered:

> Because fictional works do not always reflect the reality of the
> culture they come from?  How many people today are named Batman,
> Spiderman, [whatever]man, Agent 99, Spock, or Alf?  

You have a point, though I did note that the College deals with medieval
fictional names differently from medieval fictional armory.  When creating
names or armory for fantastical people, it is quite possible that medieval
authors and/or heralds deliberately created fantastical names or armory.
My experience with names suggests that this is true; my experience with
armory suggests that it is generally not true.  If my observation is
correct, then it would tend to support the policies that I described.

> I've also heard (but don't know if it's true) that the British
> heralds now checks arms for conflicts with SCA heraldry.  

It does not, to the best of my knowledge.  I believe we were told recently
that the Chief Herald of Ireland makes some sort of check against SCA
armory (Seamus?); for the life of me, I can't imagine why.

Tibor wrote:

> Correct me if I am wrong (especially Arval), but the Rules of Submission,
> as written, don't allow a herald to encourage or discourage squat.

Tricky question.  As officers, heralds ought to explain to their clients
precisely what is and isn't allowed under the rules.  However, as
individual artisans, heralds are free to encourage or discourage whatever
they wish, just like other artisans.  When I consult with a client, I will
frequently recommend for or against certain choices.  Sometimes those
recommendations will be based on my opinion of how the device will be
perceived.  For example, if I think that a particular design might smack of
paganism, I will point that out to the client.  If I think it might bother
some people at events, I'll point that out, too.  I will give my best
official opinion on whether or not it is acceptable, but also my best
artistic opinion on whether or not it is advisable.

===========================================================================
Arval Benicoeur                                       mittle@watson.ibm.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca