HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: rrdjro@minyos.xx.rmit.oz.au (Jonathan O'Donnell)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why the hell does anyone ever play anything at all?
Date: 17 Aug 92 22:37:32 GMT
Organization: RMIT Computer Centre, Melbourne Australia.

sos@oz.plymouth.edu (Steffan O'Sullivan) writes:
>ericg@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (Eric Chris Garrison) writes:
>>
>>Sure.  That's what rec.games.frp.advocacy if FOR, Bryan, it is the alt.flame
>>of the gaming Net.  

>I would have to disagree with this.  

	Boy, what A fun group!  After one or two months off the net, I 
	come to r.g.f.advocacy, with narry a kill file to protect me.

	A group designed to bring all the simmering tension of 
	r.g.frp out into the open.  I love it.

	Are there more groups like this on the net?

		Jonathan@RMIT.edu.au
From: ratinox@splinter.coe.northeastern.edu (Richard Pieri/Stainless Steel Rat)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: Diceless or Senseless? Confession!
Date: 14 Aug 92 13:47:20 GMT
Reply-To: ratinox@meceng.coe.northeastern.edu
Organization: 3WA, Boston Office. Or Nu Meta Chi. Take your pick.
In-reply-to: batemanc@p4.cs.man.ac.uk's message of 13 Aug 92 14:51:14 GMT
X-Get-A-Clue: Have two, they're small.
X-Signature-Virus-Protection: Version 1.51
X-Posting-Software: GNUS 3.14.1 [ NNTP-based News Reader for GNU Emacs ]

>>>>> "MC" == Mad Chris <batemanc@p4.cs.man.ac.uk> writes:

MC> Dear Rat,
MC> 	 I like dice, I will never give up dice COMPLETELY and I have played
MC> diceless games ( well, Freeform, but a game by any other name would play
MC> as sweet ). So why don't I know what I am talking about? I suggest you are
MC> assuming everyone who has played a diceless game will automatically be won
MC> over by it's soul-smashing superiority or, and hopefully more likely, that
MC> your inflamatory rhetoric was badly worded or misleading.

MC> Yours irked, but forgiving

That was a typo: I missed an "N" in the word "never", which came out as
"ever", completely changing the meaning of my post. Amazing what a single
letter (or lack of one) can do.

It was supposed to be a message to the proponents of dice who've never not
used them, and that one little letter completely changed the meaning of the
post.

Oops.

--Rat

||||| | | | |  |  |  |   |   |    |    |    |   |   |  |  |  |  | | | | | |||||
                                                   __        ___ 
Richard Pieri, Northeastern's Stainless Steel Rat/   | /| / /   | The Worlds
Internet: ratinox@meceng.coe.northeastern.edu   /__  |/ |/ / /| | Welfare Works
    UUCP: ...!northeastern.edu!meceng!ratinox  /   | /| / / / | | Association:
  BITNET: UA_RLP@NUHUB{.BITNET}               /__  |/ |/ / /  | | I will solve
  USNail: 14 Westdale RD  Holbrook, MA 02343 /   | /| / / /___| | any problem
 ICBMnet: 42 deg 1 min N, 71 deg 0 min W    /    |/ |/ /_//_____| for you.
From: jacobus@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Bryan J. Maloney)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: >>Put Up or Shut UP (Dice[less])
Date: 14 Aug 92 01:01:35 GMT
Organization: Purdue University Computing Center

In article <uc-chan.713682753@mcl> uc-chan@mcl.ucsb.edu (Christina Callihan) writes:
>
>May I put forth a few propositions that I think most people can agree on
>(and which have already been mentioned, but I think some are missing them)?
>
>1)	Dice systems can be done well or badly.
>
>2)	Diceless systems can be done well or badly.  
>
>3)	Definitions of "well" or "badly" are largely a matter of PERSONAL
>	TASTE AND OPINION.  
>


Oops, sorry, you're not allowed to say something like this on this group.

After all, as I have been told by the NetGods, From Whom Only Pearls of Perfect
Wisdom Come, this group is intended for the blowing of one's own horn and
verbal assault.  It is "the alt.flame of rec.games.frp.*"


One must never dare to even intimate that an argument is tedious, repetitive,
or a tired retread of arguments past--and one must never even think that
"personal taste" should not be considered an item of objective truth--that
is the height of blasphemy; so have the NetGods to me spoken when I did dare
to sin.

Please, do not take this as a Holy Correction, nor a Sacred Flame, for I
am unworthy of bestowing such gifts.  Instead, look upon my missive as the
frail attempts of a poor sinner who wishes to help others avoid his miserable
fate.


>I guess I just really don't see the point to these "discussions".  If they
>can remain reasonably friendly, fine, but when they get venomous, why bother?
>It is ALL IMO, or IYO, or I-somebody's-O, after all.  I really don't think
>that anyone is out to melt down all the world's dice, or burn all the copies
>of diceless systems, so why don't we just refrain from the trashfest and
>play whatever the hell we want?


Ah, and I, too, though such heresy before my eyes were Opened by the Glory
that surrounds us Here on this Holy Group.  I hope that you, too, will be
blessed with the Full Sacred Truth, as was I.

I have learned my lessons full well, look upon my burned, battered form
and learn, ye heretics.
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
From: ins894r@aurora.cc.monash.edu.au (Aaron Wigley [Wigs])
Subject: Re: Chili Wars
Organization: Monash University
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 01:19:05 GMT

JAMES ZAKANY (spzkny@lims01.lerc.nasa.gov) wrote:
: >>	I'll say it myself. _I_ can't tell the difference between
: >>Cincinnati and Cleveland myself. Want to fight?
: >>
: >>The Wigs of Oz,
: >>Aaron Wigley		Australia.
: 
: Aaron, that's like me saying that Sidney and Melbourne are pretty much the 
: same.  

Actually, it's spelled 'Sydney' :-)
Your edition probably is full of typos and doesn't even have an index.
Shall we blame the publishers, or the authors?

:                                                   James S. Zakany

The Wigs of Oz,
Aaron Wigley
From: bell@cezanne.cs.unc.edu (Andrew Bell)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: YAPP - Yet Another Points Post
Date: 20 Aug 92 17:29:26 GMT
Organization: The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill

In article <3368@bcstec.ca.boeing.com> hall@bcstec.ca.boeing.com (Robert J. Hall) writes:
>  There's been quite a bit of discussion recently in this group about what the
>points in GURPS 'mean'.

The (unsolvable) problem with the GURPS approach is that it tries to use
points for multiple different things.

For character creation,  the point purchasing approach is intended to
estimate the power of the character in order to start everyone from a
relatively equal level.  Since certain combinations of skills are
particularly effective (high strength and combat/physical skills)
and others ineffective (high strength and lots of mental skills), it
is an impossible task to do completely accurately.  Moreover, the
evaluation function is subjective and campaign dependent.

However, the skill costs are clearly based on difficulty, not utility.
So as you say...

>  1. How useful is the feature to your character?
>  2. How difficult is the feature to obtain?
>  3. How does the feature effect the game balance?

Seems to me (1) and (3) are really basically the same,  excepting
synergistic effects when features' effects combine.

> but it seems somewhat clear to me that the GURPS points are determined
> by a mixture of all three.

Or more accurately,  GURPS tries to combine these but can't -- it's
impossible to do accurately.

>IMPO, the only 'point' issue really worth discussing is which particular
>point schemes clearly unbalance the game by giving a player a skewed
>advantage for a particular use of points.

Here my pompous opinion disagrees (although I agree that schemes that
unbalance the game should be corrected).  Remember Dennis's comment about how
the measure of roleplaying acumen was being able to build a useless
character?  If a point system is going to work for character equalization,
then it should be very difficult to build a useless character -- or at
least one based on a reasonable background.  If the points system makes
it so that buying the character one wants results in an ineffective
character, then either the character is completely inappropriate for the
campaign or the points system has some inappropriate costs.  In the
latter case, the GM or the world book should make some adjustment in
costs to allow the particular character.

   -Andrew Bell
bell@cs.unc.edu
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
From: goodwin@orionsci (Ben Goodwin)
Subject: Re: Joys of Dice
Reply-To: goodwin@orionsci.UUCP (Ben Goodwin)
Organization: Orion Scientific, Inc.
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 13:33:43 GMT

In article <1992Aug11.222349.195911@cs.cmu.edu> cscott+@CS.CMU.EDU (Curtis Scott) writes:
>
>Based on the above (which was written by an admitted non-diceless player),
>I would expect diceless RPGs to go in cycles of interaction. Each player
>would get a period of time "in the spotlight," getting his questions
>answered and his interactions handled, then the GM would have to turn to
>the next player. In a "diced" system, these cycles go pretty quickly;

Right, I think (My opinion) that it is supposed to be run in cycles,
but the cycles are per group, meaning that if the party has split into
three groups, then each group gets a cycle of a few minutes or so.

What the Amber book tries to encourage is the concept of breaking away
from a group whenever they need a moment to think or when they're about
to get screwed.

For example, you're fighting and you're just about to get killed and its
time for some fast thinking.  The GM says hold that thought and goes to
another group.  When you think of it its kind of like playing a constant
cliffhanger.  The examples in the Amber RPG explain it better than I do.

And, not to imply that dicey folks have no imagination, but supposedly
while you're doing something the roleplay is hopefully interesting enough
that the others are entertained by it.  If they are not then they can plan
and plot with eachother until their turn comes around.

Oh, one problem I've had with dicey games is initiative.  Namely, if you've
got a character with low initiative (in some games) then you spend alot
of the combat time sitting around waiting for things to get to you.
Now that's boring.
-- 

-Ben
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
From: dv52151@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Axly)
Subject: Re: SR: Holes wanted
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 23:41:25 GMT

ratinox@splinter.coe.northeastern.edu (Richard Pieri/Stainless Steel Rat) writes:

>[armor cuts power of attack... "new system"]

>SRII will use this method, but with revised firearms tables. For example,
>all handguns are rated M2, with a Power ranging from 4 (holdouts) to 10
>(heavy). Armor drops the Power of the attack by its rating, then you resist
>what's left with your Body. Even armored, a hit from a .44 Magnum (10M2) is
>gonna *HURT*.

I hear all the weapons are going to have a staging of 2. This will make things
a little simpler, and most weapons will have a much higher power.

From what I've read, initiative is going to be based on 10 vice 7, which
should make the combat fairer for the slowpokes.

Axly
From: bell@currituck.cs.unc.edu (Andrew Bell)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: GURPS Total Rewrite
Date: 19 Aug 92 06:37:28 GMT
Organization: The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill

You know, I wrote a somewhat lengthy response, when a real short one would
do. 

In article <1992Aug18.032115.9781@tronsbox.xei.com> dfrancis@tronsbox.xei.com (Dennis Heffernan) writes:
>	Sorry, I keep forgeting that the true measure of roleplaying acumen is
>how useless your character is.

No "true roleplayer" would bother with a points system -- they'd just take the
appropriate skills/attributes.  However, for the rest of us, if creating the
character we desire results in that character being useless, then the points
system is failing its purpose of trying to balance the utility of characters
built on similar numbers of points.

   -Andrew Bell
bell@cs.unc.edu
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
From: pmw2c@csissun12.ee.Virginia.EDU (Paul Michael Wayner)
Subject: Re: marvel
Reply-To: pmw2c@csissun12.ee.Virginia.EDU (Paul Michael Wayner)
Organization: University of Virginia
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1992 21:49:49 GMT

In article <1992Aug22.033404.4975@access.digex.com>,
dzik@access.digex.com (Joseph Dzikiewicz) writes:
|> In article <57268@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> jacobus@mentor.cc.purdue.edu
(Bryan J. Maloney) writes:
|> >I:  There are no good games published by "tsr" (hey, anyone notice a
similarity
|> >between that and "tsar"?  Might explain their tyrannic, paranoid,
greedy
|> >behaviour, no?
|> > 
|> I must disagree.  The original D&D was excellent for its time.  Also,
I
|> have seen good board games published by TSR recently.  I would
include
|> "Buck Rogers" in this list.
|> 
|> Joe Dzikiewicz
|> "Down with categorical imperatives!"


Gosh mister, you must be REALLY old to have played the original D&D.

				Paul Wayner
Xref: sparky rec.games.frp.advocacy:1763 rec.games.frp.dnd:2569
From: klaus@diku.dk (Klaus Ole Kristiansen)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy,rec.games.frp.dnd
Subject: Re: 10% XP bonus
Date: 13 Aug 92 10:56:31 GMT
Organization: Department of Computer Science, U of Copenhagen

mperry@waikato.ac.nz writes:

>>    Our DM does the following:
>> 
[System for giving PCs with low stats extra XP deleted]

>Next we will have olympics where "Mr below average stats" will be given
>a bonus for being below average. Take long jump. Mr below average may get
>an extra 4 metres added to his jump, to make himself equal to someone
>who has natural talent at long jump. All events will become a farse.
>If you have a natural talent at something, you will be penalised for it.

Those characters being "penalized" are not real people, they are just
characters in a game. What the above method does is that it avoids penalising
the PLAYER for bad die rolls in character generation.

There are two ways to view XP:

They are a reward for good playing. As it is the player, not the character,
who plays, this is a reward to the player. However, depending on the way
you create characters, some players will simply have less to work with. If
you use a very mechanical way of calculating points, such as points per
monster killed, and if you calculate them individually per PC rather than
just divide them equally, the player with the less able character is
getting shortchanged. He may be playing very well, but because of that
low STR score, his character can not kill as many monsters. To use your
example, it is like having the longjumpers roll one die each at the start
of the season, and then multipling all his jumps for that season with his
die roll. It doesn't matter much if you add an extra 10% to the jumps
of those who roll 5 or 6.

The other view is that the XP and level system represents something
similar to the learning and other skill improvement found in the real
world. If so, it should be as realistic as possible, without getting
too complicated of course. Let's look at the XP bonus from this view.
Suppose that two fighters A and B decide to massacre 5 orcs. The fight
takes 5 rounds. A is very strong, and able to smash right through the
parries of the orcs. He kills one orc each round. B is not nearly as
strong, he spends the entire fight fencing with one orc. He hits is
twice, but A kills it at last. Who learns most from this? It is far
from obvious to me that A will learn most.

Klaus O K
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
From: ahabig@bigbang.astro.indiana.edu (Alec Habig)
Subject: Re: Chili Wars
Organization: Indiana University Astrophysics, Bloomington, IN
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 14:00:25 GMT

In article <12AUG199208165058@lims01.lerc.nasa.gov> spzkny@lims01.lerc.nasa.gov (JAMES ZAKANY) writes:
>In article <1992Aug11.191927.12824@menudo.uh.edu>,
> white@tree.egr.uh.edu writes...
>>Who said anything about limp noodles and meat sauce? 
>>That's not chili anywhere.  
>
>It is in Cincinnati.  I don't miss a chance to put that place down! ;+)

All these poor, unenlightened souls!  Sure, Cincinnati chili is as different
from the spicy varieties as night and day.  In fact, it's a whole different
culinary genre.  It unfortunately shares the same name as the CHILI system,
causing many copyright battles.

In fact, Cincinnati chili is a much subtler, more correct way to enjoy meat in
a sauce than that blunt, unsubtle hack-n-slash spicy garbage.  It's much more
varied (in CinC, you can get your chili in a 2 way, 3 way, etc up to 5 way, or
even on a coney!).

In fact, spiceless chili is the wave of the future, not being bound by the
random blasts associated with getting the wrong chunk of jalepeno on your
spoon.  Every dish is artfully played out, the chili and eater interacting on a
higher plane.  If you go putting obnoxious peppers in your chili, then you
might as well just go graze a garden and not bother with the rest.

PS - Every serving of CinC has that wonderful supplement included, CHOCOLATE!
That's right, everyone's favorite way to get sugar and caffine into your system
is now available in Chili!

	Alec

PS - I'm serious about the chocolate.
From: millerl@wharton.upenn.edu
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: VOTE NOW!
Date: 15 Aug 92 01:43:38 GMT
Organization: Newt World Order

In article <batemanc.713805671@p4.cs.man.ac.uk>, batemanc@p4.cs.man.ac.uk (Mad Chris) writes:
> Todays 'phone poll question is:
> 
> HAVE YOU BEEN ANNOYED BY LOREN YET?

...only days left in this offer, so get yer noids now...

-- 
whoah,
+++++++++++++++++++++++23
Loren Miller                           internet: MILLERL@wharton.upenn.edu
The more corrupt the government, the greater the number of laws -- Tacitus
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
From: spzkny@lims01.lerc.nasa.gov (JAMES ZAKANY)
Subject: Re: Chili Wars
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: NASA Lewis Research Center
Date: 14 Aug 1992 08:16 EST  

In article <4687@blue.cis.pitt.edu.UUCP>, seawasp@vm2.cis.pitt.edu
 (Sea Wasp) writes...

>	Guess I underestimated the idiocy of Ohians, eh? No one can tell
>the difference between Cincinnati and Cleveland, you know. But go ahead,
>make fun of Pitt if you want; I just live here, I'm not foolish enough
>to be a NATIVE.

There's a HUGE difference between Cleveland and the other Ohio cities.
Shows what YOU know.  Anyway, real WINGS are had in Buffalo, not Ohio.

>>In Pittsburg, they think nothing can compare to Iron City beer, too!
>>I say, go to the Buffalo Brew Pub, order a meal of hot wings and a glass of 
>>Amber (their own special brew) and enjoy a truly forkless meal...

>	So, you drink BEER! No wonder you can't even tell what works and
>doesn't work with food! Beer is a holdover from the unenlightened masses
>who use it to wash down anything that gets in their mouths. It's just
>club soda mixed with essence of rotted grain, and tastes that way, too.
>Pure, non-bubbling water is the only proper beverage for enjoying 
>your dinner.

Beverage of the peasants!  Beer, when done proper, is a cacophony mixture 
of fermented grains and water that adds volume to one's digestive gasses.
A perfect compliment to any spicy food, forked or no.

>	NEVER use a fork on a TACO, they'll take it away from you and beat
>you to death with it. TACOs are a forkless system of eating, but they 
>have the tortilla as a means to maintain control of the system without
>the messiness of the WINGS slobs.

There are more rules to eating TACOs and, in general, it's a more 
complicated food.  Just because it's harder to eat doesn't mean that it's 
superior to WINGS.  WINGS are a more elegant food!  And, quite frankly, the 
spiciness of a food depends on the cook, not the food itself.  A good cook 
can make ANY food enjoyable.  WINGS, being simpler, gives the cook more 
latitude to create a truly memorable meal.
                                                  James S. Zakany
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
From: singley@helix.nih.gov (Erick D. Singley)
Subject: Re: Diceless or Senseless? Confession!
Organization: (National Institutes of Health, Bethesda, MD)
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 14:25:27 GMT

>>This is FACT.

>I'm glad you agree with my assessment of Torg.

>:-)

I never knew 'till now that BBS were like Rocky Horror.
Callbacks! what a concept! We could take someones post, keep reposting and add our own lines! (*not a flame, just a ROFL!*)

Erick
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
From: ins894r@aurora.cc.monash.edu.au (Aaron Wigley [Wigs])
Subject: Re: Chili Wars
Organization: Monash University
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1992 23:43:25 GMT

ahabig@bigbang.astro.indiana.edu (Alec Habig) writes:
: In article <4687@blue.cis.pitt.edu.UUCP> seawasp@vm2.cis.pitt.edu (Sea Wasp) writes:
: >	Guess I underestimated the idiocy of Ohians, eh? No one can tell
: >the difference between Cincinnati and Cleveland, you know. 
: 
: Ooohhh, them's fightin' words in the heartland.  That's like saying to a dwarf
: in one of those other systems "never could tell you apart from them elf
: people". 

	I'll say it myself. _I_ can't tell the difference between
Cincinnati and Cleveland myself. Want to fight?

The Wigs of Oz,
Aaron Wigley		Australia.
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
From: seurer@rchland.vnet.ibm.com (Bill Seurer)
Subject: Re: Joys of Dice
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 13:10:00 GMT
Reply-To: BillSeurer@vnet.ibm.com
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM Rochester

Actually, even in a diceless game there are times you HAVE to use dice.
Suppose you are roleplaying a craps game (and not cheating at it somehow)?
-- 

- Bill Seurer     Language and Compiler Development      IBM Rochester, MN
  Internet: BillSeurer@vnet.ibm.com    America On-Line: BillSeurer@aol.com
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy