From: ashish@quip.eecs.umich.edu (Ashish Mehra)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.indian
Subject: Re: HYPOCRISY
Date: 16 Oct 92 17:29:07 GMT
Article-I.D.: zip.1992Oct16.172907.26218
Organization: University of Michigan EECS Dept., Ann Arbor

I have posted earlier about harassment of women in India and that Indian males
should listen and communicate with Indian women. But some of the emails from
Indian women on the net (an example follows) have been rather offending to me
personally, and possibly annoying to other Indian men on the net. My comments
that follow should be viewed in this light.


In article <1992Oct16.082459@shiva.mc.ti.com> kali@shiva.mc.ti.com writes:
>
>J.Ainikal always goes back to the reason of poverty
>being the cause of the Indian male's sleezy slimeball
>behaviour.

Mind your language, lady! John has been posting pretty reasonable 
arguments explaining the possible reasons behind harassment of women
in India and he said all along that he is NOT justifying such behaviour.
What in the world do you mean by 'Indian male's sleazy slimeball bahaviour'?
Are you incapable of putting forth your point of view without resorting to 
rude generalizations? Do you think Indian men will take this attitude and
even bother to be reasonable? Too many time I have come across such 
unacceptable argument style in the garb of feminism.
    
>what I find to be most hypocritical in your posts is
>time and again you have openly admitted that the reason
>you have taken refuge in a "WHITE LAND" is that you 
>have no guts to face the poverty in INDIA.
>Then, why is it sooooooooo difficult for you to
>stomach the fact that the Indian women who have made the
>US their home find the situation in India with respect
>to male domination/sexual harassment, etc. INTOLERABLE?

John DID NOT say that he finds it difficult to stomach...
All he objected to was, and I strongly agree with him on this,
is the use of the term 'less evolved' for Indian men and the Indian
society in general and the notion that 'happiness' means the same
to all women. It shows to me how little respect you have or Shyamala
has for the Indian society and that you are so caught up in your
career pursuits or glorification of the American men, that you fail
to realize that you are destroying those very channels for communication
which you and women in general desire so truly. This applies to Indian men
here directly, as we are the ones who would interact with you and some of us
would sincerely try and forge a sense of mutual respect and understanding, even if 
as plain simple friends. Shyamala and the likes of you disappoint me no end.  
 
>Nobody denies that the latter is non-existent in the US
>just as nobody can deny that the poverty in the US has 
>been eliminated.  By the same token, it is ridiculous
>to say that the poverty in this country is comparable to
>the situation in INDIA.  There will never be total
>eradication of either crime (poverty or harassment)
>and when people make their choices and voice their opinions
>there is no sense in denying or ridiculing it.

Then WHY are you ridiculing John's opinions? WHY are you taking India
and Indian men apart if all the facts are on the table and according to you
there are problems in both countries?
 
>Also do you think that the women in general are happy
>in INDIA despite the unspeakable crimes committed on them?
>You seem to suggest that they are.  Well! surprise surprise!
>Most of them are NOT and the trouble is that there is not
>a DAMN thing they can do about it.  

Hello there! Been to every household in India? Discussed with every women
in India? Know what you are talking? Talk sense! I have mentioned in a previous
article how I have been annoyed and very angry at the harassment and obsceneties
that my sister has to face..BUT, she is a strong woman and knows what she wants. And
does she get it! I believe she is very happy in India, and so are many other women
whom I know. Now you may say that I should talk about the villages and the poor etc. 
My dear lady, happiness is relative to your lifestyle, to your beliefs, and to your
perception of what it should be. For my sister, it is getting opportunities in life,
getting somewhere where she can contribute and be appreciated, and over everything else,
be an execellent life partner and mother! For a villager, happiness would be to care and feed
her children, help out her husband in the fields, take food along and eat with him.
Have you ever been delighted by an intimate dinner at home, where the entire family is
present and there is a strong sense of unity and belonging? THAT is my definition of happiness,
and God consenting, THAT is what I will go back to when the time comes. Have you ever 
taken pains to make it more comfortable for your family and friends in India? I have
felt immensely happy caring for my family, taking my sister to her friend's place,
making sure her wishes are respected absolutely in her marriage, that nobody insults my
family and gets away with it, that I be a good son and brother! THAT is my definition
of happiness. I have not felt happy in the US. I am here for my career, for a future
that I find takes me more and more away from my roots, my own people. Believe me, I miss
the soil and the smell, I miss the chat with our milkman, I miss the daily bantering
with our gardener, I miss the dinner some neighbour would prepare just for me and my
sister. I miss India. Damn it! You think you know what happiness is? Fine, go get it
and have a life, but stop telling me what it should mean for me! 

THe ones who were fortunate
>have escaped the tyranny (just as you were fortunate to escape
>the poverty).  

See above.

If your logic holds, then the people living in
>utter povery must be quite happy in India and they are not
>very concerned about changing it.  Perhaps they are over
>stating the poverty levels in INDIA? It really isn't so bad,
>and they are just blowing it all out of proportion?  Does that
>not sound utterly ABSURD?
>When one lives in INDIA one is aware of the poverty levels but
>somehow the majority turn a blind eye to it and continue to 
>lead their lives and somehow are able to push that aside from
>their daily lives (unless they are a part of it).  Even so, the
>women continue to lead their lives knowing that they are
>fighting a losing battle (unless they belong to a privileged
>class where they are not exposed to such atrocities!)

The women, BTW, are very much a part of the 'majority' that turns
a blind eye to abject poverty, if such a majority does exist. You talk 
like the voice of all women, and yet I get the feeling that you really do
not know what you are talking about. Very convenient of you to make women
seem innocent of all that is bad in India. Of course men are to blame for everything.
Losing which battle? Like when men are tortured and hacked to death while the women
are raped? Like when the parents care from day one for their children,
hoping the best for them? 

>And one last note, the women who have been speaking out on 
>the net did not suddenly realise that the sitaution back in
>INDIA stinks after moving to th US.  The only differene is
>that they can voice it here with advanced communication modes.

Yeah right! 'Indian male's sleazy slimeball behaviour' is a result
of advanced communication modes? NO, lady, it is due to your
screwed up perception of Indian males and the Indian society in general.
People in India are happy in different shades. Not everything is black
and white. 

>If you carefully read all the articles, you will note that they
>were quite distressed back in INDIA but could not DO a DAMN thing
>due to the structure of that society.
>-- 
>.............................................
>KALI, THE AVENGER
>.............................................

What makes you think that women are the only ones that felt distressed
and helpless? I mean, have you even tried to communicate with Indian males
and get a perspective? Or is it that women's harassment is a proof that all is
simple and easy for Indian males and that every Indian male condones society's
various crimes?

Ashish Mehra