HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: alt.war.vietnam
From: quoctp@cs.toronto.edu (Quoc Tuan Pham)
Subject: Re: Some judgements about Tet Offensive 1968 and one painful memory
Organization: Department of Computer Science, University of Toronto
Date: 10 Nov 92 22:24:52 GMT

aec6699@zeus.tamu.edu (CAMPBELL, ANGELA EVETTE) writes:

>> 
>>What ever the reason, no one could break the tradition of the Tet. All people
>>in Vietnam, China and East Asia must stop fighting, quarreling; they often
...
>Precident:

>I'd just like to mention 1789 (within a decade or two), when the Vietnamese
>did the same thing during Tet, this time against the Chinese.


>Is it traditional to break the same traditions?

Angela:

     Actually, Nguyen Hue started the offensive 9-10 days before Tet.
He vowed to drive the Chinese invaders out of the country in time
to celebrate the new year. However, it turned out much better and
he was able to finish the Chinese a couple of days earlier than
planned!
Newsgroups: alt.war.vietnam
From: Monte Olsen <olsenm@ccmail.orst.edu>
Subject: Re: A klick
X-Xxmessage-Id: <A71D9451F801A70D@reynolde-mac.ads.orst.edu>
X-Xxdate: Wed, 4 Nov 92 22:53:05 GMT
Organization: OSU Extension Service
X-Useragent: Nuntius v1.1.1d12
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1992 22:51:45 GMT

In article <1d706nINN3jb@bigboote.WPI.EDU> George M.
Berberian, hunter@wpi.WPI.EDU writes:
>I don't think there is an accurate account of what
soldiers went through.
>Only to each soldier that was there.
>One book that was fairly close was, i thought, Rumor of
War. The author
>escapes me at the moment. I read this book several years
ago. It was
>accurate to a point. I could relate to several points the
book brought
>out.
>
>-- 
>..................................../*\................
...................
>George M.Berberian                                  
College Computer Center
>hunter@wpi.wpi.edu (email)                      
Worcester Polytechnic Inst.
>GMBERBERIAN@jake                                   
Worcester, Massachusetts

George,
I think the author's name is Phillip Caputo, but I'm not
sure. I read the book too. Wasn't in the Marines, but some
scenes struck a cord with me.
Newsgroups: alt.war.vietnam
From: Monte Olsen <olsenm@ccmail.orst.edu>
Subject: Re: Veteran's Day
X-Xxmessage-Id: <A727DC7EB103A70D@reynolde-mac.ads.orst.edu>
X-Xxdate: Thu, 12 Nov 92 18:03:42 GMT
Organization: OSU Extension Service
X-Useragent: Nuntius v1.1.1d12
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 18:02:00 GMT

In article <BxJGJJ.LH8@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> Craig D.
Emmert, emmertcd@feserve.cc.purdue.edu writes:
>To all Veterans everywhere, past, present, and future -
Thank you and 
>God Bless.  Thank you for bringing my father home. 
Nothing can express
>how I feel.
>				From a new Vet.
>					Craig

Craig,
I'm glad you made it home, too. Welcome home! to your dad
and you.

Monte
Newsgroups: alt.war.vietnam
From: bashford@scripps.edu (Don &)
Subject: Re: Effects of US war protestors (was Re: Stockdale....)
Organization: The Scripps Research Institute, La Jolla, CA, USA
	<92Nov5.230425est.47888@neat.cs.toronto.edu>
	<1992Nov6.160101.24059@lgc.com>
	<92Nov7.124526est.47991@neat.cs.toronto.edu>
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 00:17:26 GMT

>>>>> In article <92Nov7.124526est.47991@neat.cs.toronto.edu>, quoctp@cs.toronto.edu (Quoc Tuan Pham) writes:

Quoc> Do you know how much destruction is brought to the jungles in
Quoc> the Central part of the country by their policy of "New Economic
Quoc> Zones" and rampant loggings which cause floodings at a scale
Quoc> never seen before? The last two things have been occurring way
Quoc> after the end of the war and have much more devastating effects
Quoc> than the Americans and their bombs during the war were able to
Quoc> do.  In fact, the bomb shrapnels embedded in the trees have a
Quoc> positive benefits.  They are not so good to the saw blades in
Quoc> Thailand's logging mills.  Hardwoods from Vietnam jungles don't
Quoc> sell that well. The current commmunist government cannot
Quoc> benefits too much from cutting down and exporting hardwood
Quoc> trees.

Ah Ha!  We had to bomb the rain forest in order to save it!

I shall dash of a letter right now to president-elect Clinton
suggesting the B52 carpet bombing of the Olympic Pennensula
in Washington.

Newsgroups: alt.war.vietnam
From: daudo@bcars201.bnr.ca (Dau Do)
Subject: Re: Some judgements about Tet Offensive 1968 and one painful memory
Reply-To: daudo@bcars201.bnr.ca (Dau Do)
Organization: Bell-Northern Research, Ottawa, Canada
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 15:29:04 GMT

In article <92Nov10.172442est.47525@neat.cs.toronto.edu>, quoctp@cs.toronto.edu (Quoc Tuan Pham) writes:
>aec6699@zeus.tamu.edu (CAMPBELL, ANGELA EVETTE) writes:
>
>>> 
>>>What ever the reason, no one could break the tradition of the Tet. All people
>>>in Vietnam, China and East Asia must stop fighting, quarreling; they often
>...
>>Precident:
>
>>I'd just like to mention 1789 (within a decade or two), when the Vietnamese
>>did the same thing during Tet, this time against the Chinese.
>
>
>>Is it traditional to break the same traditions?
>
>Angela:
>
>     Actually, Nguyen Hue started the offensive 9-10 days before Tet.
>He vowed to drive the Chinese invaders out of the country in time
>to celebrate the new year. However, it turned out much better and
>he was able to finish the Chinese a couple of days earlier than
>planned!

Really ?! I think you make a mistake.  Nguyen Hue started the offensive
on the New Year days.  He and his soldiers celebrated the New Years
9-10 days before Tet.  .... And He was also planning to take back the land
that the chinese took from us.  I think it's Quang Dong that he wanted to
take it back.  Too bad :-( , He passed away too early :-(
Newsgroups: alt.war.vietnam
From: henry@kodak.kodak.com (R.W.Henry)
Subject: Re: Veterans' Day
Organization: Eastman Kodak Company
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 92 13:55:32 GMT

In article <1992Nov12.011333.2387@vixvax.mgi.com> devoy@vixvax.mgi.com writes:

>I realized that not only has nobody close to me _today_ said "Thank You", 
>nobody close to me has *ever* said "Thank You" (nor have people _not_ close
>to me ever said "Thank You"). Not before, not during, not after, not ever.
>
>-Dave Devoy
> 1st Bat., 46th Infantry, Chu Lai, '68

Dave,
There is hope;
My 17 year old son said "Happy Veteran's Day" AND "Thank You".

During the celebrations for the homecoming of the military people who
fought in Desert Storm, my mother said "I can't believe all of the
attention these people are getting; They never did this for you guys
when you returned home."

I had to point out that the difference, the significant difference, was
that the people who did most of the planning, the people cheering the
loudest, were the PARENTS!  From day one, they were tying yellow ribbons,
they were the ones who stood up to the anti-war crowd, they were the ones
to make sure the "media" got it right, and they were the ones who,
win or lose, were going to celebrate the homecoming.

Sincerely,

- Bob Henry
USN, MCB-7, Chu Lai, '69-70
(SeaBee)

 _________________
|  ___  ________  |
| |  / /        | |  Bob Henry   henry@kodak.kodak.com
| | / /         | |  Eastman Kodak Company
| |< < K O D A K| |  Engineering Systems Division/ITU
| | \ \         | |  1669 Lake Avenue
| |__\ \________| |  Rochester, N.Y.  14652-4331
|_________________|  PHONE: (716)477-1936   FAX: (716) 722-6592
From: root@jamatx.lonestar.org (John Thompson)
Newsgroups: alt.war.vietnam
Subject: Re: Effects of US war protestors (was Re: Stockdale....)
Date: 9 Nov 92 19:53:44 GMT
Organization: An Asylum in Texas

In article <JTURNER.92Nov6181803@splinter.coe.northeastern.edu> jturner@splinter.coe.northeastern.edu (Jeffrey Turner) writes:
>In article <1992Nov06.213752.14873@bnr.ca> jarthur@bnr.ca (John Thompson) writes:
>
>> Could you, given two aerial photographs of Arlington National Cemetery, one
>> taken before the war and one taken yesterday, distinguish those areas filled
>> with American servicemen who died in Vietnam?  Were they all evil American
>> war planners, or is it possible that many of them were poor ignorant bastards
>> whose families had to live with the consequences of their being in the wrong
>> place at the wrong time?
>>  Regardless of who was right or wrong, there were terrible consequences for
>> the people on both sides.  Only a complete asshole would imply otherwise.
>
>	50,000 American dead vs. 3 million Vietnamese dead.  And it
>was US policy which contributed much more to the continuation of
>the war.  When SV President Diem Bien Phu wanted American troops to
>withdraw and to negotiate a settlement, the US backed the coup which
>killed him.  So much for SV democracy.  That, along with everything
>else SV had to be destroyed to be saved.
>
>> "The strategy, fortunately, did not work."  Fortunately for whom?  You must
>>mean fortunately for all right-thinking people.  I commend you on your command
>> of the English language, you just need to brush up on your rhetoric.
>
>	Fortunately for the large number of Vietnamese who opposed
>the US neo-colonialism.  The US has no right to run the world, and
>the Vietnamese certainly showed that.
>
>					--Jeff  Turner

Congratulations, Jeff.  Two out of three ain't bad.

Good English.  

Outstanding rhetoric: "... had to be destroyed to be saved." and 
"US neo-colonialism".

But, SV President Diem Bien Phu?  Is he the one who did your body count?

I still maintain that anyone who implies that there were not terrible
consequences for the people on both sides is a complete asshole.

John Thompson
jarthur@bnr.ca
jarthur@jamatx.lonestar.org
-- 
  --------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
/ John A. Thompson       | An Ancient Hacker | e-mail:                       \
| 2721 Knollwood Court   |                   |  root@jamatx.lonestar.org      | 
| Plano, TX 75075        | Remember the ...  |  jarthur@jamatx.lonestar.org   |
Newsgroups: alt.war.vietnam
From: drk@cs.uiuc.edu (David Kohr)
Subject: Re: South VNese support for US intervention (was Re: Stockdale...)
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept of Comp Sci, Urbana, IL
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1992 00:10:29 GMT

In article <BxAzwn.6z@news.orst.edu> Monte Olsen <olsenm@ccmail.orst.edu>
writes:
>Dave and his pals feel any war America participates in is unfair if the
>U.S. uses anything more than nerf balls.

Let's see, all that I have said so far in this regard is that a large part
of the reason why the US was very ineffective in gaining the support of the
populace of South Vietnam is because of the destructiveness of certain of
its counter-insurgency tactics (defoliation, carpet-bombing, forced
evacuation followed by the institution of "free-fire zones", destruction of
fields with Rome tractors, and the like).

It requires quite a leap of logic to reach your conclusion above, Monte. 
What mysterious inference mechanism led you to it?

And who are my "pals"?

>Take it easy,
>
>Monte Olsen
>(ex baby killer, village burner and all around bad guy--by
>Dave's definition)

Monte, would you care to explain the line of reasoning by which you reached
this intriguing conclusion?

By the way, it's very rude of you to keep cross-posting these articles
about the Vietnam War to totally unrelated newsgruops like
talk.politics.misc and alt.politics.elections.  This sub-thread has nothing
to do with Stockdale anymore.
-- 
Dave Kohr     CS Graduate Student     Univ. of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Work: 3244 DCL, (217)333-6561  Home: (217)359-9350  E-mail: drk@cs.uiuc.edu
                   "One either has none or not enough."
Newsgroups: alt.war.vietnam
From: tuan@lgc.com (Tuan Nguyen)
Subject: Re: Diem and Strategic Hamlets
Organization: Landmark Graphics Corporation
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 14:18:52 GMT

In article <83441@ut-emx.uucp> wolfone@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Patrick Chester) writes:
>
>Kim lived in S.Vietnam and escaped after it fell to a N.Vietnamese armored
>invasion. He witnessed many things there yet you say he is a questionable
>source? Odd.
>

Kim's being there bears no validity nor truth to his accounts of the war.
I found his stories rather biased and heavily influenced by ideological
hostility.  Being there can add to one's credibility, but being objective 
is what really counts in this case.  From what I have read, Kim's 
objectiveness, if any, has been severely restricted by his ideology.  For
a change of pace, how about some accounts of a North Vietnamese who lived in 
Hanoi during the war?  Maybe a NVA or VC vet?

>Patrick Chester

Tuan Nguyen


Newsgroups: alt.war.vietnam
From: drk@cs.uiuc.edu (David Kohr)
Subject: Effects of US war protestors (was Re: Stockdale....)
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept of Comp Sci, Urbana, IL
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 04:26:00 GMT

In article <Bx7s46.Jt3@news.orst.edu> Monte Olsen <olsenm@ccmail.orst.edu>
writes:
>Correct me if I'm wrong, but, in fact, didn't the protesters force the
>U.S. out of the war?

The burden of proof is on you: you're the one asserting this point.

>I'll probably make you angry with this, too. I wish we could have somehow
>earned the support of the people over there. They deserved much better
>than they got--not from us, but from Hanoi. 

Yes, it's a shame they didn't appreciate our efforts to brutalize them with
free-fire zones, carpet bombing, defoilation, and our support for the South
Vietnamese police state.
-- 
Dave Kohr     CS Graduate Student     Univ. of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Work: 3244 DCL, (217)333-6561  Home: (217)359-9350  E-mail: drk@cs.uiuc.edu
                   "One either has none or not enough."
From: jackm@cats.ucsc.edu (Jack Mallory)
Newsgroups: alt.war.vietnam
Subject: Veterans' Day
Date: 11 Nov 1992 21:59:12 GMT
Organization: University of California; Santa Cruz
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: ucsco.ucsc.edu

It's quite amazing the time that so many folks have to flame each
other, and so little time to take a break and notice that it's
Veterans' Day--a day which should be of some signifigance to people
with an interest in the Vietnam War.

Honor the dead, support the veterans, work for peace and justice.
Jack Mallory
11th Armored Cavalry Regiment
'69-'70
raven.alaska.edu!news.acns.nwu.edu!network.ucsd.edu!ucsbcsl!mcl!ugabarra
Newsgroups: alt.war.vietnam
Subject: Re: A klick
From: ugabarra@mcl.ucsb.edu (Il Viaggiatore)
Date: 5 Nov 92 07:38:12 GMT

In <6521@ucsbcsl.ucsb.edu> uairk@mcl.ucsb.edu (1az2-fmrhbsxsywrefth) writes:

>I am not sure about what can or cannot be said is an accurate account of the
>war - for myself I am too young to remember anymore than a few news shows
>on saturday mornings back then...

>   ... but, anyway - a "klick" is one Kilometer - if the terminology
>used then is the same used now.

yes the terminology is the same..  however, when you are dealing with troop
movement (meaning non-mechanized troops) it really only becomes an 
approximation..  this is because distances are kept by pace count, and no
pace count is truly 100% accurate..

cya l8r >8=;==;==---'

	Il Viaggiatore
From: uairk@mcl.ucsb.edu (1az2-fmrhbsxsywrefth)
Newsgroups: alt.war.vietnam
Subject: A klick
Date: 5 Nov 92 01:16:22 GMT

I am not sure about what can or cannot be said is an accurate account of the
war - for myself I am too young to remember anymore than a few news shows
on saturday mornings back then...

   ... but, anyway - a "klick" is one Kilometer - if the terminology
used then is the same used now.
From: sdt8s@curry.edschool.Virginia.EDU (Steve Tilson)
Newsgroups: alt.war.vietnam
Subject: Re: Amusing Technical Aside
Date: 10 Nov 92 04:33:36 GMT
Organization: University of Virginia

C'mon, Dave, leave drieux's capitalization out of this. It's
part of what makes drieux...just drieux.

Steve
--
Roses are red, 
Violets are blue.
I'm a schizophrenic
And so am I.
From: wolfone@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Patrick Chester)
Newsgroups: alt.war.vietnam
Subject: Re: Diem and Strategic Hamlets
Date: 12 Nov 92 13:11:22 GMT
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin TX

In article <BxFBq9.577@cs.uiuc.edu> drk@cs.uiuc.edu (David Kohr) writes:
]In article <1992Nov8.212723.25899@emr1.emr.ca> knguyen@emr1.emr.ca (Kim
]Nguyen) writes:
]> But I tell you that I dream to see Communist Vietnam die.
]
]To anyone reading Kim's postings, this admission should serve as a warning
]signal regarding the accuracy and completeness of the historical facts
]presented and the biases reflected in the conclusions reached.

Golly, Dave. Kinda like how your posts do the same? Of course, *you* couldn't
be biased, no? You are for the Truth.

Kim lived in S.Vietnam and escaped after it fell to a N.Vietnamese armored
invasion. He witnessed many things there yet you say he is a questionable
source? Odd.

-- 
Patrick Chester            |----------------------------------------------------
wolfone@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu |"The earth is too fragile a basket in which to keep
Politically Incorrect      |  all your eggs." Robert A. Heinlein
Future Lunar Colonist      |"The meek shall inherit the Earth. The rest of us
#^%$!! Militarist          |  are going to the stars." Anonymous
(Of the Sun Tzu mentality) |----------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: alt.war.vietnam
From: Monte Olsen <olsenm@ccmail.orst.edu>
Subject: Re: Veterans' Day
X-Xxmessage-Id: <A727DF669A04A70D@reynolde-mac.ads.orst.edu>
X-Xxdate: Thu, 12 Nov 92 18:16:06 GMT
Organization: OSU Extension Service
X-Useragent: Nuntius v1.1.1d12
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 18:14:26 GMT

In article <1992Nov12.135532.28226@kodak.kodak.com>
R.W.Henry, henry@kodak.kodak.com writes:
>I had to point out that the difference, the significant
difference, was
>that the people who did most of the planning, the people
cheering the
>loudest, were the PARENTS!  From day one, they were tying
yellow ribbons,
>they were the ones who stood up to the anti-war crowd,
they were the ones
>to make sure the "media" got it right, and they were the
ones who,
>win or lose, were going to celebrate the homecoming.
>
>Sincerely,
>
>- Bob Henry
>USN, MCB-7, Chu Lai, '69-70
>(SeaBee)


Bob, Jack, Dave, and others,
Welcome home to you guys! There is a place where regular
folks say these things quite often. I just started reading
posts there about a month ago and the first time I saw
some of the thank you notes, it was stunning. I didn't
know how to react, so I started to cry. This place is the
Veteran's forum on Prodigy. It's also a good place to look
up people who may have been in your unit. I ran into two
people who were in my unit.

Jack, I remember flying over your columns as they headed
into Cambodia in 1970. What a sight that was. I also
remember the Michelin Rubber Plantation and many other
places you got to see much closer than I. To all of the
veterans here, thanks for making my year in Vietnam a
little safer.

Monte Olsen
187th AHC, Tay Ninh
1970-71
Newsgroups: alt.war.vietnam
From: drk@cs.uiuc.edu (David Kohr)
Subject: Re: Obviously You missed Joan Boez....
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept of Comp Sci, Urbana, IL
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 18:26:30 GMT

In article <1992Nov11.084010.5005@wetware.com> drieux@wetware.com (drieux,
just drieux) writes:
>drk@cs.uiuc.edu (David Kohr) writes:
>] We can only hope that "drieux, just drieux" will .... at long last reach
>] the trivially obvious conclusion that merely pointing out the civil and
>] human rights abuses of one side in a conflict does not constitute an
>] endorsement of the policies of the other side.
>
>I think you may have missed the technical points.

I didn't miss them, despite your best efforts to conceal them with
less-than-clever drivel.

>Joan at least had the MORAL INTEGRITTY to stand up and be counted by
>continuing her opposition to the FAR GREATER OPPRESSION of the
>'liberators.'

In other words, if a citizen in good conscience is attempting to prevent
his country from waging a war which he believes is very destructive and
unjustified in light of the actual threat posed by the enemy country, he
should focus on the evil deeds of the enemy country.

This is a very curious strategy for a war protestor to follow.

So drieux, on which situation do you think the citizen can realistically
hope to have an influence: the evil deeds of the enemy country, or the war
waged by his own?

>] This is precisely the level of humor which the term "sophomoric" was
>] invented to describe.
>
>
>Why Thank you,
>
>I had not wished to 'write above' my audience....
>
>ciao
>drieux

Congratulations, by virtue of your strained efforts at sarcasm you have
managed to insult *everyone* reading your message.
-- 
Dave Kohr     CS Graduate Student     Univ. of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Work: 3244 DCL, (217)333-6561  Home: (217)359-9350  E-mail: drk@cs.uiuc.edu
                   "One either has none or not enough."
Newsgroups: alt.war.vietnam
From: skaggs@engin.umich.edu (jeffrey r. skaggs)
Subject: Re: Effects of US war protestors (was Re: Stockdale....)
Date: Sat, 07 Nov 92 18:00:41 EST
Organization: University of Michigan Engineering, Ann Arbor



To say protesters saved American lives ( Vietnamese lives as well ) is a 
valid statement.  However, most protesters did not give a damn about saving
the lives of American soldiers.  This was most evident when protesters spat
on and threw dogshit on the returning soldiers from Vietnam.  They accused
them of being "baby killers" and shunted the soldiers at every point.  The
protesters and the draft evaders received better treatment and a warmer
homecoming than the American G.I.'s did.  The treatment of the G.I.'s that
returned from Vietnam, by the protesters, is this nation's worst crime.  I
can not, will not, ever forgive the protesters for their creul, hostile,
and inhuman treatment of OUR UNITED STATES ARMED FORCES.

 
Newsgroups: alt.war.vietnam