From: news@illusn.enet.dec.com (Mark Sornson)
Subject: Re: This is what the Jehovah's Witnesses do.
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Date: 29 JUL 92 16:13:00 EST


In article <ntlkg84@fido.asd.sgi.com>, cj@eno.corp.sgi.com (C J Silverio) writes...
>---
>corey@sdf.lonestar.org (Corey Carroll) writes:
>|news@illusn.enet.dec.com (Mark Sornson) writes:
>|>>>         The dictionary I have handy defines apostacy as:
> 
>|>>>                 "renunciation of one's religion, principles,
>|>>>                 political party, etc."
> 
>|BTW, by definition, a large part, but not all, of Jehovah's Witnesses
>|are apostates.  They had to renounce their former religions to become
>|a full-fledged JW, even going so far as to have to write a letter of
>|resignation to their church.  But of course, you're the true religion,
>|so it doesn't count in your case, right?
> 
>Nice point.

        I haven't had a chance to reply to Corey's posting (from which
    you've taken this quote), but you are only applauding a point out of
    spite which Witnesses already know about and which we accept as a
    matter of course, namely that if one of us leaves another religion to
    become a Witness, we will formally disown that other religion so that
    there is no question that we do not wish to have someone (from that
    church) mistakenly assume that we still belong to it.

        This may well cause those other churches to view those who leave to
    become Witnesses as 'apostates' (in some manner) -- but we *really
    don't care* that they label us that way.  When Witnesses leave other
    religions and are shunned by family and/or friends in those former
    churches, WE don't cry about it, since we have already counted the
    cost, and are convinced that Jesus' words will be fulfilled toward us:

                "Truly I say to you, there is no man who has
                left house or wife or brothers or parents or
                children, for the sake of the kingdom of God,
                who will not receive manifold more in this
                time, and in the age to come eternal life."
                (Luke 18:29 RSV)

    We are happy with our choice, and usually find that we are more than
    amply compensated for personal losses with spiritual returns.

        When people leave Jehovah's Witnesses for another religion or for
    no religion at all, it seems as though many of them cry about it for
    the rest of their lives, and at least some make anti-Witness crusading
    their hobby, if not their full-time job.  It's not that they merely
    advocate their NEW course of life, but rather they go out of their way
    to oppose those who remain in that former one.  When people leave other
    faiths to become Witnesses, they don't become full-time opposers of
    those former religions; they become full-time advocates of their new
    one.

        Now, it's true that not all people who leave or in some way fall
    away from being one of Jehovah's Witnesses are classified as apostates.
    But, as I said before, apostacy is much more a matter of attitude and
    practice -- and I'll add, attitude and practice which is actively
    demonstrated as opposition -- than it is a mere matter of knowledge and
    belief (or as the case may be, unbelief).

        When, for example, a Catholic becomes a Witness, those Witnesses
    don't then strike a course of literal opposition to the church, with
    protests and what-have-you aimed directly at the Catholic Church. 
    Jehovah's Witnesses interfere with and actively oppose [i.e., attempt
    to cause the downfall of] NO organization on earth, whether religious
    or political.

        Even churches like the Catholic church show that they too make a
    distinction between those who have fallen into disbelief and those
    which they consider to be active apostates.  As a case in point, as
    reported in the Boston Globe last Sunday, 70% of the Catholics it
    polled felt that the church wasn't doing enough to handle the problem
    of priests who have sexually abused church members.  According to
    report from UPI (dated 27 Jul 92, which may still be on the wire) a
    spokeman for the Needam-based Catholic League criticized those who were
    criticizing the church, and said:

         ``What the poll does suggest, particularly in reference to
         church teaching on abortion and contraception, is that
         significant numbers of those who call themselves Catholics
         are in fact practical atheists, material heretics, and
         FUNCTIONAL APOSTATES.'' [emphasis added]

        The church evidently feels that because certain Catholics are
    actively criticizing the policies of the church in defiance of church
    order and church procedure, they have made themselves "functional
    apostates." Because Jehovah's Witnesses do not actively oppose other
    churches and seek to force them to change (or even disband), we are NOT
    truly "functional apostates" -- though, by the definition I quoted
    previously out of my dictionary, I suppose we could be defined as
    apostates for having renounced previous beliefs.  But again, to us,
    that really doesn't bother us [as it seems to bother those who leave
    our religion].

>JWs encourage potential converts to keep their minds open
>about the JW faith.  Of course, the JWs have the true religion, 
>so open-mindedness about other religions isn't necessary.  Slam 
>that mind shut after you've converted!  What a double standard.

        Nice try, but you are really over-stretching the notion of open-
    mindedness.  Open-mindedness does NOT require a person to sacrifice
    conviction that certain notions are unquestionably true, and thus
    others are unquestionably false.  For a person to be "open-minded" by
    your standards appears to mean that he or she should be willing to
    doubt the truth of everything conviction, and entertain the possibility
    that every other thing may be true -- which pretty much makes
    decisiveness impossible, lest "open-mindedness" be sacrificed.

        "Conversion" -- as you call it -- is actually the process by which
    an individual arrives as a set of conclusions and convictions on their
    own, with their own mind, which causes them to "convert" a former way
    of life and/or thinking to a new one.  When a person becomes a Witness,
    their mind isn't "slammed shut" -- but it IS 'made over.'  Again, by
    your reasoning, you are condemning every person for having made up
    their mind just because they, after that point, reject notions that are
    in conflict with those new convictions.

                                                                -mark.
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc