From: levine@symcom.math.uiuc.edu (Lenore Levine)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Groups of Women (reply to some comments)
Date: 8 Sep 1992 21:04:20 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: remarque.berkeley.edu
Originator: muffy@remarque.berkeley.edu

[Moderator's note: incidents summarized.]

In reply to some comments by sklautky@vaxa.weeg.uiowa.edu (Stephen Klautky),
on various incidents in his personal experience.:

>One interchange during lunch left me perfectly shocked.  Two women
>(20's) were talking about a wedding they recently attended [and made
>various negative comments about the bride's housekeeping, etc.]
>I asked "Do you like
>this woman"?  They said they liked her but didn't care for her living
>arrangements.  It seemed an awfully mean characterization for someone
>they liked.

I would have to be there. But this one *does* sound as if the
ladies weren't being very nice. (Especially if they were criticizing
the choice of spouse on grounds other than the best interests of the
bride, and if their criticism of the bride's house was not amused
affection at her lovable foibles, but actually indicated that
they thought the bride's worth was diminished by deficient housekeeping
standards.) 

>2nd story: Two different women are talking about feminism and the
>various problems that women have in the workplace [he was excluded for
>"not having input", then they objected to joining NOW because there were 
>"so many lesbians running it."]  This one also threw me.  These are women
>who want ERA passed and are willing to contribute money to female
>political candidates but are troubled by lesbians in NOW?  I thought
>only men on soc.men were troubled by lesbians :-).

Yeah. All sorts of riff-raff are in NOW. Probably even some of us fat
people. :-)

>The last story (aren't you glad :-)) 

***No, I'm not!!! You write very well, your stories are sensitive,
perceptive, ethical and interesting...

And I particularly like that you illustrate your theoretical points
with specific examples.

>[A man was told by women that he was not the "type" for an interviewee]
>They went on to talk about the kind of
>men who would most suit the woman.  They can guess her taste in men
>(if men at all) just by looking at her and her resume?  Does it make
>sense for other women to steer "unqualified" men away from a woman
>they consider (for lack of a better word) a princess?

This case seems a little more innocent. Some people are much better
guessers than others; they may really have been able to make a good
guess as to what the first woman's sexual or romantic trip was.

I remember when I was a little girl both (that's right, both!) of my
parents were in the hospital, and they hired a woman to take care of the
children. I went to the door and the woman was there, and I knew there
was something wrong with her as soon as I saw her. 

I walked over to a friend of my mother's and told her that I didn't want
that woman, that there was something wrong with her. The friend told
me basically to keep quiet and not bother anyone with this (and probably
walked away thinking what an inconsiderate child I was).  

Well, the woman turned out to be psychotic and verbally (though not
physically) abusive...

>From time to time I have asked directly where these characterizations
>come from and if they are not antithetical to a feminist program.
>Sometimes one will agree with me, reluctantly.  Usually this question
>is ignored and other times I get "*sigh* you are not letting us have
>any fun".

Using one's intuition about people (arbitrary and difficult to verbalize
as it may be) is not the same thing as penalizing people for being
eccentric or socially inept...  There's a very fine line but there *is*
a line...

>If you believe my subjective interpretation of the above situations do
>these women still qualify as feminists?

>Please keep in mind that these events are rare and that these women
>are my friends.  

I think Steve's friends (who sound like they really *are* his friends, and
should be kept as such) are not completely aware of an important 
dimension to social justice. I am not sure whether I would consider them
feminists or not...

>Do not take this post to mean that I expect feminists to be perfect
>torch bearers for equality or to have all the answers.  I think it is
>more important to talk about these sorts of things as they come up so
>we can learn from them.  But how am I to address these questions when
>my credibility is handicapped, in their eyes, by my gender?

I didn't know being a feminist meant you were supposed to treat men like
second-class citizens. That's not the definition I use, or anyone I
know personally (or most of the people on soc.feminism)...

Lenore Levine
levine@symcom.math.uiuc.edu


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