HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Vatican Recognition of Israel - Who Needs It?
Date: 24 Nov 1992 02:30:09 GMT
Organization: Australian National University
Distribution: world
Reply-To: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au
NNTP-Posting-Host: 150.203.23.70

In article <1992Nov23.175818.28840@cs.brown.edu> Harry Mamaysky writes:
>In article <98855@netnews.upenn.edu>, rubinoff@linc.cis.upenn.edu (Robert Rubinoff) >writes:
>|> In article <1992Nov22.165131.27516@cs.brown.edu> hm@cs.brown.edu (Harry Mamaysky) >writes:
>|> >[...] The Vatican only this
>|> >year, after a decade or two of investigation, finally acquiesced to
>|> >the idea that the Earth orbits the Sun. Galileo has been ex - ex -
>|> >communicated.

>|> This is not correct.  The Vatican has accepted the geo-centric model of the
>|> solar system for centuries.  Furthermore, Galileo's conviction was motivated|> not >by the scientific issues but by the fact that he deliberately insulted the
>|> Pope; the charges were arranged as retaliation for the insult.  (The Roman
>|> Catholic Church also explicitly accepts evolution, by the way.)

>For centuries? Hmmm....

If the following is inaccurate, blame my parents for giving me 
insufficient memory cells.

Galileo wrote a treatise arguing that Copernican theory was compatible
with Scripture.  He was hauled before the Inquisition and charged with
Heresy.  Only his high status and influential friends saved him from 
more, er, creative forms of interrogation.  He was found NOT GUILTY
of Heresy, but ordered to refrain from supporting Copernicanism.  
I forget the details, but he was allowed to continue studying it, even 
writing about it, so long as he never suggested it might be true.

Some years later, he wrote another book supporting Copernicanism.  He
was charged with disobeying the order of the earlier court.  He was
found guilty and forced to recant.  He was also sentenced to life
imprisonment, but allowed to spend it at home.  I am 99% sure that
he was NOT excommunicated.

The Vatican inquiry set up in 1979 studied the justice of his trial and
sentence for disobedience.  It was NOT concerned with whether the earth
goes round the sun; such things were accepted centuries ago (as Robert
said).  The inquiry report in 1992 (new record of only 13 years for
Vatican inquires?:-)) recommended that Galileo's conviction be rescinded.

That's all I can remember; I hope it's not too far off.

>Of course, I am hardly a scholar in this area.

Me neither.

Brendan.


Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: solovay@netcom.com (Andrew M. Solovay)
Subject: Re: G-d or G*d?
Organization: Smiley Abolition Front
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 21:54:50 GMT

In article <emc.721944213@keiko> emc@doe.carleton.ca (Eli Chiprout) writes:
>4. Should we refer to false gods with deleted vowels or consonants,
>   for instance "J*s*s" as many have done?  Is not the deleting of
>   vowels or consonants a way to make a name more respectful by not
>   writing it in full?

The problem here is that we have a conflict between two different
traditions. On the one hand, there is the tradition not to use
God's full name, lest one use it in vain or treat it with
disrespect; thus, people often leave a consonant out, replacing
it with a hyphen. Hence "G-d".

On the other hand, there is a commandment to the effect that the
names of alien gods "shall not be on your lips". For this reason,
many avoid using the names of pagan gods even in writing; for
example, I knew one Lubavitcher who referred to members of the
Society for Krishna Consciousness as the "Hare Kishlicks", since
"Krishna" is the name of their god. For this reason, many are
reluctant to write the name "Jesus".

The problem is, if you leave out the vowels in "Jesus", it looks
a lot like the sign of respect Jews show towards God's name. To
me, this is morit ayin, verging on chilul haShem (ch v'sh). In my
mind, it's much preferable to actually use the name "Jesus", or
to use the Yiddish euphemism "Yashka".

Anyway, as I understand it, since EMail is an ephemeral medium,
one doesn't have to be so careful about God's names. As I
understand it, if you used a Hebrew word-processor to write the
four-letter Name, you could erase the file with no problems; you
wouldn't have to take the disk to a Geniza.
-- 
Andrew Michael Solovay    

"We know that Solovay is a misogynist and an idiot..."
                --Melinda Shore
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,misc.headlines,talk.politics.misc,misc.legal
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Say it ain't so
Organization: The Department of Redundancy Department
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 92 22:59:51 GMT

In article <Bxv5rD.C0v@world.std.com> srm@world.std.com (Stevens R Miller) writes:

>I never denied the existence of legal evidence of wrongdoing, Jake.  What
>I denied was the existence of good reason to believe that Nelson's
>acquittal was the product of racism.  

The NY Times notes the significance of "the intense exchanges in the
trial room that the jury experiences firsthand.  Many observers of Mr.
Nelson's trial believe those interplays were extraordinary, with
Arthur Lewis Jr., a Black defense lawyer, locking horns with a white
judge, state Supreme Court Justice Edward Rapaport.

"In the eyes of some who viewed portions of the trial, the judges's
frustrations and frequent admonitions to Mr. Lewis only served -
perhaps in subliminal ways - to underscore to a predominantly
non-white jury the central premise of the defense's case: that a
criminal justice system, largely controlled by whites, was framing a
young black man."

As I have said before, the jury just lapped it up.  As the Brooklyn
D.A. Charles J. Hynes, said "What do you do with a jury that says nine
cops from three different commands within one hour fabricated a case?
What do you do with people who have so low an opinion of police
officers?"  There is excellent reason to believe that the acquittal
was the product of racism.

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com              10 years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions. standard of a failed President.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: ifaz706@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu
Subject: Re: Nazi propaganda on this net
Organization: University of Texas @ Austin
Date: 21 Nov 92 01:28:40 CST

In article <4490@bimacs.BITNET>, ehrlich@bimacs.BITNET (Gideon Ehrlich) writes:
- In article <2835@israel.nysernet.org- warren@nysernet.org writes:

		[...]
 
- WARENS statement in his signature (" Adif tzav pinui metzav shmoneh.")
- express a Nazi idea.


	What a nonsense. I'd like to think that Gideon doesn't
	really know what Nazi ideas are all about.

 
- "It is better to expell Jews than to resist the Arabs "
- 
- Saying that the  statement he is using is not a motto , does not
- change the situation.
- 
- Warren is using this Jewish net in order to distribute a Nazi
- propaganda! We should oppose such a propaganda no metter who is the
- distributer.


	First, this is _not_ a Jewish net, despite the claims of
	some Holocaust deniers.

	Second, if we were less ignorant and more tolerant we would
	be able to oppose Nazi propaganda where it _does_ exist. 
	Trivializing Nazism is the best that Nazi propaganda can 
	hope for.

 
----
--/|/-\/-\          Adif tzav pinui metzav shmoneh.
-- |__/__/_/        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
-- |warren@
--/ nysernet.org                             Jerusalem
- 
- Shalom    Gideon Ehrlich          ERETS YISRAEL


Noam

Xref: sparky soc.culture.jewish:20743 soc.culture.turkish:11934 talk.politics.mideast:22410 talk.politics.soviet:9096 soc.culture.greek:10822 soc.culture.europe:9750 soc.culture.soviet:10170 soc.rights.human:4284 soc.culture.yugoslavia:9674
From: er@iscp.Bellcore.COM (Elie Rosenfeld)
Subject: Re: American Antisemitism
Reply-To: er@iscp.Bellcore.COM (Elie Rosenfeld)
Organization: Bell Communications Research (Bellcore)
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 92 21:53:14 GMT

In article <1992Nov18.202837.1567@cbnewsl.cb.att.com>, stank@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (Stan Krieger) writes:
|> ROBERT WERMAN writes:
|> >One in five adult Americans hold strong prejudicial attitudes against Jews,
|> >and anti-Semitism is most prevalent among blacks and the elderly according
|> >to a survey released Monday.
|> >
|> >Foxman told reporters he was especially disturbed that 31 percent of
|> >Americans in the survey believe Jews have "too much power," and that 35
|> >percent think Jews are more loyal to Israel than to the United States.
|> >
|> >Overall, 20 percent of American in the survey fell into the "most
|> >anti-Semitic" category.  Thirty-seven percent of blacks were in the
|> >category, compared with 17 percent of whites.
|> 
|> Come on Bob, why are you wasting bandwidth this posting?  Aren't things
|> like the Jewishness of Conservative converts or which heckshers are
|> more kosher than others the really important issues that affect us?
|> -- 
|> Stan Krieger                 All opinions, advice, or suggestions, even

This sarcastic reply reminds me of the joke about the Jewish husband who
claims that, in his home, he has it much tougher than his wife.  He worries 
about the MAJOR problems, like the global economy, who will be elected
president, the environment.  And she only has to deal with the MINOR problems,
like how to pay the mortgage, how to raise the kids, cooking, cleaning, etc.

While not a perfect analogy, my point is this.  It goes without saying that
nearly any Jew, regardless of his level of observance, should be concerned
about issues like anti-semitism.  But that does not imply that other issues,
particularly halachic ones, are to be ignored.  It seems unfair that the issue 
of anti-semitism is constantly raised in order to critisize O Jews who stand
by what they believe in even when those positions involve painful choices,
as they believe halacha demands that they do.
-- 
Elie Rosenfeld      | "I am what I am, Leila -- and if there are self-made
Bellcore            |  purgatories, then we all must live in them.
Piscataway, N.J.    |  Mine is no worse than someone else's."
(908) 699-8800      |                     - Spock, "This Side of Paradise"
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: jgoldber@todah.chem.utoronto.ca (Joel Goldberg)
Subject: Down Under Story
Organization: University of Toronto Chemistry Department
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 03:15:52 GMT

In article <isaac.722036145@etrog> isaac@etrog.se.citri.edu.au
(Isaac Balbin) writes (or at least he should have):
>
>When you're Orthodox 
>	YOUR HEAD IS OUT OF THE SAND
           (Though you might be upside down
	      If you're in kangaroo land.)
>When you're Orthodox
>	YOUR LIFESTYLE IS ``MODERN'' 
            --Forty se'ah in your hot tub
		And a timer on your modem.
>When you're Orthodox
>	YOU CAN MIX WITH REFORMERS, CONSERVATIVES etcetera,
>but
>When you're Orthodox
>	WILL YOU ACCEPT NEW DEFINITIONS? WHY NEVER!

   Next week, at Brovender's:
      G'mara, I just met a girl at G'mara.
      And suddenly a daf,
      Will never be enough,
      For me!!
From: aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Shaqeeqa)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: sex and Dawud Melekhanu(Yemenite pronunciation)
Date: 21 Nov 92 19:49:48 GMT
Organization: University of Colorado at Denver

In article <92325.140220GRV101@psuvm.psu.edu> GRV101@psuvm.psu.edu (Callec Dradja) writes:
>
>At the time, I was very surprised to hear this especially since he
>is an orthodox rabi. What do other people think? Is Rabi Michael
>correct or should he take a refresher course on basic Jewish law?

Maybe you should check his credentials.  A Rabbi named Michael??

:^)
From: simon1@bass.bu.edu (Simon Streltsov)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Conversion Question
Date: 23 Nov 92 01:07:58 GMT
Reply-To: simon1@bass.bu.edu (Simon Streltsov)
Followup-To: soc.culture.jewish
Organization: Boston University

In article <4499@bimacs.BITNET> rothberg@bimacs.BITNET (Danny Rothenberg) writes:
>(Acharei-Mot Kedoshim Emor/De mortuis nihil nisi bonum) book: 'Why be
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>Jewish'.  Like many of his books there is much paranoia, but he does
	   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Sorry, but does 2 line follow the first one?

Simon Streltsov,
Boston University

"If you go on the road and come to a fork - Take it!"
From: zeleny@husc10.harvard.edu (Michael Zeleny)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Second Hand Jewish Souls wanted (was re: Second Hand Judaica wanted)
Keywords: menorot, kiddush cups, platters, etc ...
Date: 17 Nov 92 20:15:23 GMT
Article-I.D.: husc3.1992Nov17.151524.17540
Organization: The Phallogocentric Cabal

In article <1e8p3lINN3ou@seven-up.East.Sun.COM>
charla@kerouac.East.Sun.COM () writes:

>[...]

>I'm also looking for a story I read sometime ago about converts
>taking on the soul of one of the six million.  Everyone seems
>to think this is a lovely story, but unless I find the source,
>I'm in danger of being credited with inventing it, and I'm sure I
>didn't.

Sorry, but the souls of my ancestors are not available.

>thx.

u r wlkm

>c

cordially,
mikhail zeleny@husc.harvard.edu
" -- I shall speak bluntly, because life is short."
From: kers0205@elan.glassboro.edu (CHUCK KERSHENBLATT)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: kibbutz
Date: 18 Nov 92 02:56:07 GMT
Organization: Rowan College of New Jersey

Anyone interested in sharing a few kibbutz stories? I worked on my second 
kibbutz last summer up in the Jezreel valley, a beautiful place called Ein-
Dor. 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (samuel.saal)
Subject: Why the double standard (was Re: Why I think Kach's policies ...)
Organization: AT&T
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 13:41:36 GMT

I realize this discussion is beyond boring in that most of the
participants have dropped out,  However....

In article <RLK.92Nov15093227@underprize.think.com>
rlk@underprize.think.com (Robert Krawitz) writes:

>In any event, Israel is more or less tolerated or better by most of the
>world right now.  Militarily there's no sign (that I can see) of anyone
>planning to attack it (modulo Hezbollah and friends, which have enough
>power to kill the isolated soldier here and there, and fire the
>occasional rocket into a northern settlement or two, but nowhere near
>enough to threaten the overall security of Israel).  I will grant that
>Israel's in real danger if Iraq or Iran get the bomb along with a long

"Fire the occasional rocket"?????  Name one other country that would
tolerate that?  If anyone did this to any other country, the Fifth
Columnists in that country, their reletives, friends, aquaintences, and
business associates would be investigated, jailed, expelled, whatever.
There would not be the toleration you seem to be demanding of Israel.

Be glad it isn't your daughter killed in the last rocket attack, but don't
demand, from the comfort of a country that hasn't experienced regular
(albeit "occasional") attacks, that Israel ignore them.
-- 
Sam Saal      kingfish!saal OR saal@kingfish.att.com
	Vayiftach HaShem et Peah Ha`Aton
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,misc.headlines,talk.politics.misc,soc.culture.african-american,misc.legal
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Say it ain't so
Organization: The Department of Redundancy Department
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 92 23:42:29 GMT

In article <BD.92Nov11102204@fluent.UUCP> bd%fluent@dartmouth.EDU writes:
>jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni) writes:

>The presumption of innocence is integral to this process.  When you say 
>that I am "setting up for a system that victimizes the victims after 
>the crime, as well" you are missing the point.  The jury system is
>designed to maximize the possibility of a just solution, starting
>with the assumption that the accused is innocent.  It is incumbent
>on the accuser to prove, beyond a resonalbe doubt, that the accused
>actually committed the crime.

And when this is in fact proven beyond a reasonable doubt, as it was
in the Kahane case, and the jury decides nevertheless to acquit the
accused, where has the maximum possibility of a just solution gone to? 

>Do you suggest that in order to be "fair" to the victim then a black man
>accused of shooting a white police officer should be tried before a
>jury of white police officers?  This doesn't seem "fair" to me.

Obviously.  But when a jury finds something which is entirely out of
whack with common sense observations and even with detailed analysis,
free of the theatrics and manipulations of the courtroom, then the
"justice" system is missing out on justice by miles.  When this kind
of verdict becomes commonplace, the system is due for a major overhaul. 


-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com              10 years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions. standard of a failed President.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: warren@nysernet.org (Warren Burstein)
Subject: Re: Report from Mars: finished the ONE intro. book to Judaism
Reply-To: warren@nysernet.org
Organization: Mail to News Gateway at Wang Labs
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 09:49:28 GMT

In <41109@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> ph600fcy@sdcc14.ucsd.edu (Matthew Harrington) writes:

>PS.  It tasted good, too.

I hope you said the proper blessing before eating it!
-- 
/|/-\/-\          Adif tzav pinui metzav shmoneh.
 |__/__/_/    
 |warren@         "Warren's slogan is an Anti-semite slogan."
/ nysernet.org 			    Gideon Ehrlich
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (samuel.saal)
Subject: scary stories (was Re: Demons (was Re: Kosher Honey ...))
Organization: AT&T
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 17:39:04 GMT

In article <1992Nov17.165646.1415@speedy.aero.org>
nadel@attatash.aero.org (Miriam Nadel) writes:

>While I'm thinking about it, I'd like to dig up some good scary traditional
>Jewish stories to tell.  I have the book _Lilith's Cave_ which is a nice start
>but if anyone has other recommendations, I'd appreciate it.

Any book on the history of antisemitism will do.  Selections from the
history of Christian (and Moslem) treatment of the Jews should prove
fruitful.  Better than just being scary, I'd call them frightening.
-- 
Sam Saal      kingfish!saal OR saal@kingfish.att.com
	Vayiftach HaShem et Peah Ha`Aton
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky)
Subject: Re: Dawid Makowsky and Kach (was A message from Kach to ...)
Reply-To: makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky)
Organization: Arizona State University, Tempe AZ
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 21:36:10 GMT

In article <199211181519.AA28350@das.wang.com> MASH@WEIZMANN.WEIZMANN.AC.IL (Michael Shimshoni) writes:

# In: <1992Nov17.011724.20572@ennews.eas.asu.edu>
# makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky) states towrds the end:
 
# >In article <dfs.721958431@pulaski> dfs@doe.carleton.ca (David F. Skoll) writes

# ># From "Israel Line", 16 November, 1992:

# ># > Israel Radio, KOL YISRAEL, reports that a hand grenade exploded
# ># > this afternoon in a market in the Moslem Quarter of Jerusalem
# ># > killing a 70 year-old Arab and injuring 8 others.  Before the
# ># > incident, someone called a reporter from the newspaper HADASHOT,
# ># > saying that the Kach movement intended to stage an attack in
# ># > eastern Jerusalem. After the hand grenade had gone off, someone
# ># > again called the same journalist saying that the Kach movement was
# ># > taking responsibility for the grenade attack. The commander of the
# ># > Jerusalem Police said that an intensive investigation is being
# ># > conducted to find those responsible for the attack. No suspects
# ># > have yet been apprehended.

# ># Do the supporters of Kach on scj not see that cowardly terrorist
# ># attacks such as the above are the inevitable results of Kach's
# ># platform?

# >	No, since it is not.  By the way, I ma not now, nor have I ever
# >been, a member of Kach.
 
# After having read a lot of David's  articles on the subject, I wish to
# ask David:  Why are you  not a  member of Kach  now or were  one while
# Kahane was still alive?

	Let me just state that being a member of a party in the United
States is not the same as being a member of one in Israel.  For one
thing, when we vote here, we do not have to vote for a party's slate
of candidates (in many cases the option to do so exists, but most
chose not to).  I vote for both democrats and republicans.  I am not
sure if you have some confusion here and that is why you asked the
question.

	However, I will Answer it.  I have not yet ade Aliya yet.  When I
do, I may join.  I have not joined orgainzations like Kach USA (although
I did use to go and hear the late Rabbi speak) mainly because of a lack
of time to participate in meetings and activities.

	Another reason is that I do not support Kach policies totally.
For one thing, I see no reason why Gaza (or at least parts of it)
should not be given to the Arabs.  I really do not wish to get into a
discussion on this here, but I believe Israel should do this even
without a peace treaty.  I think keeping all of Gaza probably costs
Israel more than it is worth.
--
	There are three types of people in the world.  Those that are good
at math and those that are not.

makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin)
Subject: Re: Conversion Question
Organization: Purdue University Statistics Department
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 20:58:42 GMT

In article <1992Nov19.201432.25057@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca> jgoldber@todah.chem.utoronto.ca (Joel Goldberg) writes:
>In article <1992Nov19.173834.16841@porthos.cc.bellcore.com> er@iscp.Bellcore.COM (Elie Rosenfeld) writes:
>>Where O parts company with C and R is in how to define a "legitimate 
>>interpretation".  O Jews believe that the halacha provides a framework for
>>what options are and are not acceptable.  And it believes that C and R step 
>>outside that framework.  C and R can choose to believe otherwise, of course, 
>>but it is really rather unfair to condemn O for not agreeing.

>  Ok. We had a discussion on the kashrut of bee honey, and there seemed
>  to be a consensus (or not, but it's not the point, as shall become
>  clear) that the reason it was kasher was because there is a tradition
>  it is kasher. The argument in the Talmud as to why it is kasher is
>  probably wrong (ie. the facts they cite are wrong) but it doesn't
>  matter because the particular law (honey is kasher) exists
>  independently of any explanation.

>  I described this bee honey stuff in order to make clear what I am
>  _not_ asking.

>  What I _am_ asking, is the following: When no tradition about a
>  situation exists, and a ruling is obtained by applying the
>  existing halacha to a set of facts, what should be our
>  response when the facts are later shown to be false? An
>  example is the barnacle goose. It was thought to grow on
>  trees (the incorrect fact) and the kashrut rules (in this
>  case for fruit) were applied to it. When it became clear
>  that the facts were wrong, the ruling was changed (to
>  regular kasher bird). Is such a "re-interpretation"
>  halachically valid? Why or why not?

In my opinion, tradition is never a valid basis for a decision of any
importance.  Also, I believe that all conclusions based on reasoning 
from empirical assumptions should be totally reviewed if contrary
empirical evidence is found.

This is why I argue that for people to issue statements about matters
which may be binding that the rabbi(s) state the empirical facts used,
and the empirical facts used by their predecessors, and if these facts
are found to be wrong, their conclusion needs total rearguing.  

If halakhah does not immediately reconsider in these situations, it is
asking people to behave as if tradition and custom are more important
than the truth.  
-- 
Herman Rubin, Dept. of Statistics, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette IN47907-1399
Phone: (317)494-6054
hrubin@snap.stat.purdue.edu (Internet, bitnet)  
{purdue,pur-ee}!snap.stat!hrubin(UUCP)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish