From: elkies@ramanujan.harvard.edu (Noam Elkies)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Oboe family (was Re: Cor Angl*)
Keywords: oboe, trombone
Date: 8 Apr 92 19:04:44 GMT
Article-I.D.: husc3.1992Apr8.150446.10849
Organization: Harvard Math Department

In article <ku4miqINN66i@jethro.Corp.Sun.COM>
drijbo@one-iron.Corp.Sun.COM (Jonathan Osser) writes:
:In article <1992Apr7.200235.10815@husc3.harvard.edu> [I wrote]:
:>the four sizes of trombones, though the soprano and (more recently) alto
:>trombones are obsolete or nearly so [original instruments revivals may
:>change this].
:
:I'm not familiar with the soprano trombone--can someone post something
:about it?  Was it used to double sopranos in early 17thC choral music?
:Is it pitched an octave above the tenor?  What clef was it normally
:written in?

I rechecked this in the Grove.  Yes, it was usually an octave above the
tenor trombone, and had been used to reinforce choral treble parts,
but apparently never was very common.  The Grove "trombone" article
says nothing about clefs for the soprano trombone --- or for that matter
any of the other trombones (if memory serves), though it does make the
point that trombones, like tubas, aren't transposing instruments,  such
designations as "B-flat/F trombone" notwithstanding.

:The alto trombone is alive and well in several mainstream orchestras I've
:seen performing 19thC music.

I stand corrected; the Grove article also cites a Britten passage commonly
taken by the alto trombone.

:As for bass trombones, I've seen a variety of instruments labelled as
:bass (or contrabass) trombones so I'm not sure what range to compare with
:the voice.

"bass" usually refers to an F trombone, "contrabass" to a (much rarer)
low B-flat instrument.  But the distinctions are blurring as more
trombonists adopt a "tenor-bass" insturment, with a valve that
switches the basic tube length between B-flat and (usually) F.

:>With the saxophone family the
:>ranges of the soprano, alto, tenor, baritone and bass instruments are
:>in roughly the same relation as the corresponding voice ranges;
:
:with the bass an octave below the tenor?  That's a bit wide for voices,
:notwithstanding a few scattered examples (Strauss, Mozart, and Josquin
:on the bottom; some bel canto stuff on top).

By bringing in Josquin you seem to be conflating the operatic and choral
ranges.  In opera one usually sees all lower male parts designated "baritone",
with "bass" reserved only for such ostentatiously profundo parts as the
Osmin and Sarastro roles you're alluding to.  In choral music the typical
mixed regimentation of SATB has baritones and basses singing the same
part, which does tend to lie about an octave below the tenor and two octaves
below the soprano, though exceptions do occur (we had a thread on the
extremes of vocal ranges here some 6-12 months ago).  When the men split
into 3 or 4 parts one does see "tenor", "baritone" and "bass" parts, which
tend to be about half an octave apart, again roughly the same relation as
with the saxophones.  [And while I'm in pedant mode, that Absalon motet
with the low B-flat is now attributed to de la Rue, not Josquin.  Other
Renaissance composers have also sent their basses to the basement ---
Tinctoris, a virtuoso bass singer himself, had a particular penchant for
dropping the lowest part to near C level.]

:(and while we're at it, if someone invented a viola da caccia, where
:would *it* fit in?)

Didn't we have enough viola jokes here already?  :-)

--Noam D. Elkies (elkies@zariski.harvard.edu)
  Department of Mathematics, Harvard Univ.
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical