From: owen@autodesk.com (D. Owen Rowley)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: How This Man/Boy Got Some
Date: 11 Jan 93 18:50:05 GMT


In article <1993Jan9.033648.2219@leland.Stanford.EDU>, prufrock@leland.Stanford.EDU (Scot N Gibson) writes:

> >(Tim Mohler) writes:
> >>This struggle against sexism, it's not a struggle against
> >>ignorance.  It's a struggle against self-interest.  If it was
> >>merely ignorance, the struggle would have been over long
> >>ago.
 
> Yes, excellent point.  It's important to note (as you did) that this
> is a step towards the goal, even if it's from one bad thing to another
> (possibly worse) thing.  

I don't think it's right to fight unfair discrimination with more unfair
discrimination.  The epitome of mis-placed thinking during the cold war
war was one congress-critters assertion that *If there was gonna be
a new `adam and eve' due to nuclear war, he wanted them to be american*.
There was also the vietnam era paradigm that we were gonna save the
vietnamese people from communism even if we had to kill them all in the 
process.

> The struggle for black civil rights in the
> South and elsewhere in the fifties and sixties was often very clearly
> a struggle against others' self-interest, not ignorance.  

racial bigotry that keeps one group in economic disadvantage definitly
involves self interest, but ignorance is the stock and trade of teh bigot.
I remember clearly several incidents that brought me face to face with
racial bigotry back in the 60's and early seventys. profound ignorance
was to be found at teh heart of the matter in all those cases.

> And (as was
> demonstrated then) it's much, much harder to force someone to learn
> something than to force them against (what they percieve to be) their
> self-interest.  

It's this concept of forcing people in any way that sticks in the 
craw of liberty minded folks.
Personally I find it the height of ignorance to claim high moral ground
while attempting to force others to adopt a specific POV, no matter what
the underlying reason.

> As you say, on the question of sexism, most of America has gotten past
> the problem of ignorance and progressed to the next problem of
> self-interest.  

I don't agree, I still see plenty of ignorance involved.

> I would argue that on the LGB-rights problem, American
> has yet to get over the problem of ignorance.  It'll be interesting to
> see if and how the self-interest part rears it's ugly head, if it
> hasn't already (and I just can't think of how it has).  

:-)

Oh, I've seen the signs a-plenty.

Financial analysis show sthat gay men have more disposable income than
their strayt peers.

> Any ideas on how people, who understand why LGB people should have
> equal protection, would fight for their rights due to selfish reasons?
> Examples of how it's already happened?


housing is one area in which individual rights clash.
but beyond that, education can defeat ignorance by showing ( not forcing)
that everyones self interest is served when eqaul rights are fairly applied
across the board. Attempting to remedy past inequitys by tilting the balance
to force or mandate favor for the previously disadvantaged is no less 
unfair than the ills it seeks to remedy. 

LUX ./. owen

--
D. Owen Rowley {uunet,fernwood,sun}!autodesk!owen, owen@autodesk.com
[ EU-PHORIA: A STATE OF WELL BEING ]
Euphoria is my natural state, I do what I enjoy and an abundance 
of all good fortune comes to me for it.
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