HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: cbnorman@cayley.uwaterloo.ca ()
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.games.frp.campaign
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1992 23:31:26 GMT

In article <n0de3t@ofa123.fidonet.org> Kay.Shapero@f524.n102.z1.fidonet.org writes:
>On <Nov 06 16:00>,  somebody whose name appears to have gotten munged, but
>whose message-ID was BxBK07.F7p@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu wrote to All;
>
> u>There is a specific campaign net called "Vervan's Gaming Net" 
> u>which deals
> u>with only RPG campaigns.
>
>And each echo on that net deals with only ONE campaign.  They don't try to
>jam them all into one echo/newsgroup, and they don't distribute them over
>more than 50 bbss if that - I suspect 20-30 is the more usual but cannot
>say for sure.  It's been awhile since I've had much to do with Vervan Net.
>But there's a big difference between a clump of narrowly distributed and 
>defined specialty groups, and a single, worldwide usenet group. 
>
I never compared .campaign to Vervan's.  I merely brought it up to answer
someone's question about other gaming networks.  I don't see any problem
with placing several camapaigns in one newsgroup.  As long as everyone
uses a different subject line, there shouldn't be any problems.

And no, I don't envision .campaign turning into a 70-campaign monstrosity.
I would suspect that somewhere in the range of 5-15 campaigns will run simultaniously.

>If you're the person who is proposing this thing, speaking as someone who
>HAS read rec.games.frp (at least before the split; I wasn't in a position
>to pick up the splinter fragments, so dropped the whole thing), if
>there's some reason that you cannot use a mailing list to play games 

As I've said repeatedly, the purpose of .campaign is not to just 'play games'.
Infact the first line of the proposal specificly states that is not
the purpose of .campaign.  I am constantly shocked that people keep asking
me if that is the group's purpose....


Newsgroups: news.groups
From: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes)
Subject: Re: About the elitism in news.groups
Reply-To: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov
Organization: Jet Propulsion Lab - Pasadena, CA
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 09:11:54 GMT

rsk@gynko.circ.upenn.edu (Rich Kulawiec) writes:
>But in the absence of that sort of question and its corresponding
>answer, completely unfounded speculations (for that is what they are)
>about each other's mental states simply detract from the discussion.
>We should all allow everyone to speak for him or herself, and we
>should not attempt to infer personalities from postings.

Gee...this is going on all around this flamewar...from me and you and
others. Is this what you really feel? 
-- 
Dave Hayes - Network & Communications Engineering - JPL / NASA - Pasadena CA
dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov       dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov         ...usc!elroy!dxh

 You need not wonder whether you should have a reliable person as a friend. 
               An unreliable person is nobody's friend.
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: dkl@xcluud.sccsi.com (David Leikam)
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Organization: Greater Montrose UFO Appreciation Society & Data Haven
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1992 19:44:07 GMT

In article <6PSSBADB@cc.swarthmore.edu> hildebra@math.wisc.edu (Jeff Hildebrand) writes:
>	Wait a second. I'm not entirely sure this is always true. I'm fairly
>certain that I've seen CFV cross-posted to groups which would not be
>affected directly, but might have people who are interested in
>participating. For example the CFV for rec.arts.sf.starwars was crossposted
>to rec.arts.sf.misc and maybe even sf.tv. Nothing happened to those groups
>but the crosspost was made to get people's attention. So if the CFV said
>nothing about the renaming in the subject line I don't think it's
>unreasonable for people to think that it was there only to attract some more
>people who might be interested.
>
   So people assumed the RFD/CFV wasn't relevant? Well, they were wrong, 
then, weren't they?
 
  I'll reiterate publicly what I said privately: If you see an article with
the words RFD or CFV in it, posted to a group you're interested in, then
you ignore it at your peril.  Assuming that subject lines are accurate
and complete descriptions of the contents, is not a good idea.
 
  You have to do a certain amount of it, sure, but NOT with RFD's and CFV's.
Make SURE they have nothing to do with you before you start skipping them.
Otherwise, you've no one to blame but yourselves.

  Maybe it's not fair. Maybe it's not a good thing. But this is the way
it IS, and will remain until the guidlines change. Bitching about it
merely wastes your effort.


-- 
dkl@xcluud.sccsi.com | My company doesn't know Usenet exists, and my boss
and other places,    | would have kittens if he thought I spoke for them.
even more unsavory.  | My opinions are better than theirs anyway.
Xref: sparky news.groups:20862 news.admin.policy:240
From: jaapjl@tab00.larc.nasa.gov (J Lee Jaap)
Newsgroups: news.groups,news.admin.policy
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Date: 9 Nov 1992 22:20:45 GMT
Organization: AS&M Inc
	<1992Nov6.185336.22685@jato.jpl.nasa.gov>
	<1992Nov08.204250.24016@wes.on.ca>
	<1992Nov9.094324.11431@jato.jpl.nasa.gov>
Reply-To: J Lee Jaap <J.L.Jaap@larc.nasa.gov>
NNTP-Posting-Host: cmb00.larc.nasa.gov
In-reply-to: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov's message of Mon, 9 Nov 1992 09:43:24 GMT

In article <1992Nov9.094324.11431@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes) writes:

   tomh@wes.on.ca (Tom Haapanen) writes:
   >A conclusion,
   >  - Therefore, Dave Hayes was aware of the content of the CFV, and of the
   >    proposed renaming of the r.m.s group long before the vote was over.

   A better one. Dave Hayes, being aware of the readership of r.m.s, just *knew*
   that it would never pass because he *knew* rec.music.synth. Go figure. 

Were the votes acked in the followup CFVs?  Did Dave bother to check who
from r.m.s might have voted or not?  Or wait until after the fact to
complain?

   >Dave, you knew what the CFV was for, and were happy until you lost.  Might
   >it not be reasonable to accept this result, as you would have accepted a
   >NO vote for the rename?

   I would not have accepted a YES result regardless of what proposal might
   have been forwarded (even though rec.music.midi is a better name). 

Here the truth comes out.  Sad.

   This argument degenerates to:

   "And a revote now would almost certainly not pass, now that the readership
   is aware. So THAT'S why so many newsgroup clique people don't wnat a revote
   at any cost. Not because of the guidelines, but because they know the real 
   will of the net."

   So let's not.

Well, we arrive there by different means.  (And I do _not_ accept your
summary of the argument on my behalf.)  Does this mean you're going
to pipe down?
--
J Lee Jaap <J.L.Jaap@LaRC.NASA.Gov> +1 804/864-2148
    employed by, not speaking for, AS&M Inc, at
         NASA LaRC, Hampton VA 23681-0001
From: nrp@csug3.cs.reading.ac.uk ("Scented fads" Neilski)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: Names for straw poll ... *.windows.* hierarchy name.
Date: 5 Nov 92 09:24:31 GMT
Reply-To: nrp@csug.cs.reading.ac.uk
Organization: University of Reading

peter@ferranti.com (peter da silva) writes:

>OK, this is not the straw poll. This is a request for names for the windows
>hierarchy. So far we have:

>	comp.gui.*
Sounds more like the design of GUIs to me.

>	comp.windowing.*
Not bad, but a bit convoluted.

>	comp.win-sys.*
Looks too much like low-level system programming.

>	comp.window-systems.*
Like win-sys, but too long.

I like comp.windows.*, but obviously that's impractical.  How about
comp.window.* ?

(Sorry if this has already been turned down flat - I haven't been following
the discussion too hard)

-- neilski

-- 
nrp@csug.cs.reading.ac.uk  \--------------------------------------------------
----------------------------\ Be obsequious, purple and clairvoyant.
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes)
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Reply-To: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov
Organization: Jet Propulsion Lab - Pasadena, CA
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 11:31:04 GMT

twpierce@unix.amherst.edu (Tim Pierce) writes:
>Yep.  A whole bunch of people failed to acquaint themselves with the
>basic workings of Usenet.

It's NOT BASIC!! Do you have any idea how many people on the net don't 
even know that group names are subject to vote?

Basic is "How do I post without getting flamed?" "What's a FAQ?" "What does
RTFM stand for?" etc.
-- 
Dave Hayes - Network & Communications Engineering - JPL / NASA - Pasadena CA
dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov       dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov         ...usc!elroy!dxh

    In a meadow, the King shot an arrow at a deer but missed.  "Bravo!" a
    Fool shouted. The King became angry and snapped "So! You're making fun
         of me, eh? I am going to punish the life out of you!"
     "My word of praise was not for His Excellency, but for the deer."
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: riley@theory.TC.Cornell.EDU (Daniel S. Riley)
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Organization: Cornell Theory Center
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 20:41:22 GMT

In article <BxACry.BI2@unix.amherst.edu> twpierce@unix.amherst.edu (Tim Pierce) writes:
>In article <1992Nov5.205901.9251@tc.cornell.edu> riley@theory.TC.Cornell.EDU (Daniel S. Riley) writes:
>>The CFV was posted to rec.music.synth, but the subject line declared
>>that it was for the rec.music.makers reorganization--it did not
>>indicate that rec.music.synth was also involved.
>The very fact that the CFV was crossposted to rec.music.synth was by
>definition an indication that that group was involved.
[...]
>>but expecting that level of knowledge of netnews
>>voting procedures from every interested reader is unrealistic.
>Sure it is.  The result?  Those interested readers who don't bother to
>learn the conventions of netnews will be doomed to fates like this.

That's a fine answer for individuals who feel disenfranchised, and, if
the vote were otherwise fair, I wouldn't be arguing.  However, there
is a small problem with the fairness of the vote.

As a not-entirely-bogus analogy, suppose for a second that your local
election board sent out registration verification cards, but only
listed the polling locations on cards sent to republicans, not
democrats, independents, or anything else.  With one less barrier to
deal with, more marginally interested republicans vote than do
marginally interested democrats or independents, so, as a direct
result of an action taking by the body running the election, the
election results end up skewed.  You can always say "responsible
voters should know their polling location", or "if you really wanted
to vote, you could have called the board of election to find your
polling location", but that doesn't change the fundamental
problem--the results are skewed because the vote wasn't run fairly.

The rec.music.makers vote has a very similar problem.  The CFV was
posted with a subject that only mentioned rec.music.makers--so
rec.music.makers readers saw a subject line that directly indicated
this was a vote they should be interested in, rec.music.synth readers
didn't.  As a result, the vote totals very likely include more
marginally interested rec.music.makers readers than marginally
interested rec.music.synth readers.  That doesn't seem entirely fair
to me.  Do newsgroup votes really need to be fair?  I suppose not,
but, given a choice, I'd rather they were.

I'm not going to argue about whether or not the r.m.s vote should be
redone.  I am going to argue that the rules for these massive group
reorganization/renaming conglomerations need to be clarified so that
what is going on is equally clear to the readership of every newsgroup
involved.  This is not that difficult a thing to do, so why not do it?

-- 
-Dan Riley                          Internet: dsr@lns598.tn.cornell.edu
-Wilson Lab, Cornell University     HEPNET/SPAN: lns598::dsr (44630::dsr)
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes)
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Reply-To: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov
Organization: Jet Propulsion Lab - Pasadena, CA
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 05:58:16 GMT

jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard) writes:
>mathew@mantis posted two separate ways you have available to fix that. Do your
>job.

Make me. 8-)

>I've listened to your continued, slippery switching from argument to argument
>in desperate search of one to support your unilateral action to break the
>group. None have even come close to convincing me.

That's because you're too pigheaded. 

>You, on the other hand, are being completely inflexible about listening to the
>expressed wishes of the net, just because YOU DON'T LIKE THE RESULT!!

Expressed wishes of a small, vocal minority of the net. And no I do not
like the result (just as much as you like it). What difference does
that make?

>Most folks learned about that in kindergarten. You apparently missed the
>lesson.

Yes. most people learned early to give their spirit away. I've recently
unlearned that. I'd advise you in all seriousness to do the same before
you don't have any more spirit to give away. 

>Of course, you aren't willing to listen at all about the advantages of
>hierarchical naming in an increasingly complex name space, simply because that
>leads right back to that result you don't like.

I just bet that if there was real scientific evidence to support that your
brand of hierarchical naming was actually counter-productive...you'd
dismiss it as trash. 

>>Well not this person. I'm willing (and always have been willing) to fight 
>>as much as I have to until some sort of change takes place. Watch.
>Right. Go for it. Until you accept the result of a properly conducted, fair,
>and open process and rename the group, prepare to be shouting into the wind.

I'm already shouting into some increadibly broken wind as it is. 
Hopefully some of use can fix this mess.
-- 
Dave Hayes - Network & Communications Engineering - JPL / NASA - Pasadena CA
dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov       dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov         ...usc!elroy!dxh

Democracy is a device that insures we shall be governed no better 
than we deserve.
		-- George Bernard Shaw
Xref: sparky news.groups:20277 rec.music.synth:17710
From: twpierce@unix.amherst.edu (Tim Pierce)
Subject: Re: rec.arts.poems.urdu (Was: Re: More fuel for the music reorg debate)
Organization: Elitist Usenet Administrators, Stuff & Nonsense Division
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 09:12:56 GMT

In article <1992Nov13.054026.615@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> jfurr@nyx.cs.du.edu (Mr. Furr) writes:

>Say, Tim, how long before we can issue a CFV on renaming
>rec.arts.poems.urdu to soc.culture.urdu?

Immediately following an RFD on that subject.

-- 
____ Tim Pierce                / 
\  / twpierce@unix.amherst.edu / I use antlers in all of my decorating.
 \/ (BITnet: TWPIERCE@AMHERST) / 
Xref: sparky news.groups:20309 rec.music.synth:17741
From: smithj@sr.hp.com (Jim Smith)
Newsgroups: news.groups,rec.music.synth
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Date: 5 Nov 92 20:02:56 GMT
Organization: no risk to you!
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1.4 PL6]

Ken Shirriff (shirriff@sprite.berkeley.edu) wrote:
: In article <1992Nov5.030317.10383@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov writes:
: >>So where were these hordes of r.m.synth posters who oppose the change?
: >Apparently most of them were not aware of the vote until it was too late.
: 
: Well, I for one am a r.m.synth poster who was not aware of the vote until I
: saw the current discussion.  I went back and checked and there were indeed
: calls for votes in rec.music.synth with the subject: "3rd CFV and VOTE ACK:
: rec.music.makers.* groups".  Since I don't read rec.music.makers or care what
: happens there, I skipped over that posting and didn't learn about the vote.
: Perhaps the CFV subject line should make it clear to whom the CFV is relevant?
: 
: Ken Shirriff					shirriff@sprite.Berkeley.EDU

I think that Ken is making a very significant point here.  I saw all the
postings in question, but then, I read everything on r.m.s.  
The mention of rec.music.synth was buried after all the legalese gobbledygook
and three other irrelevant proposals in the posts.  No wonder it was missed
by many.  Try naming it "CFD: RENAMING rec.music.synth" and see what happens!

Ahh, too late...

Why does this remind me of a corporate raid?
From: hartman@ulogic.UUCP (Richard M. Hartman)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: Oracle Most Wise - Please Tell Us......
Keywords: rec.music.synth, oracle
Date: 14 Nov 92 01:14:43 GMT
Followup-To: /dev/null
Organization: Informational Oracles Union, local 27

In article <lftfccINN5ig@utkcs2.cs.utk.edu: /dev/null writes:
:
:Why did not someone suggest:
:	rec.music.synth.computers
:	rec.music.synth.software
:	rec.music.synth.binaries.patches
:	rec.music.synth.musicians
:	rec.music.synth.NAMM
:	rec.music.synth.forsale
:
:(or rec.music.makers.synth.*),
:
:	Please ponder this most humble of requests.

After much pondering the Oracle responds:

	I give up, dev....  Why didn't you suggest these?
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: erik@maui.til.com (Erik Horstkotte)
Subject: Re: RFD: comp.ai.genetic AND comp.ai.fuzzy
Organization: Togai InfraLogic, Inc.
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 18:09:11 GMT

In article <562@ulogic.UUCP>, hartman@ulogic.UUCP (Richard M. Hartman) writes:
|> Maybe it's time for something like:

|> 	comp.algorithms.fuzzy
|> 	comp.algorithms.genetic
|> 	comp.algorithms.classic
|> 	comp.algorithms.misc

The problem is that there are many aspects to fuzzy logic and genetic
programming that have nothing to do with the _algorithm_, per se.
I do like the idea of comp.algorithms, but I think it's a separate
issue.
-- 
Erik Horstkotte, Togai InfraLogic, Inc.
The World's Source for Fuzzy Logic Solutions (The company, not me!)
erik@til.com, gordius!til!erik - (714) 975-8522
info@til.com for info, fuzzy-server@til.com for fuzzy mail-server
From: ake@dayton.saic.com (Earle Ake)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.collecting.cards
Date: 12 Nov 92 15:42:36 GMT
Organization: Science Applications Intl Corp - Dayton, Ohio
NNTP-Posting-Host: dayton.saic.com
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5

Richard M. Hartman (hartman@ulogic.UUCP) wrote:
: In article <3NOV199215145577@lims01.lerc.nasa.gov> cazuzek@lims01.lerc.nasa.gov (Zuzek, John E.) writes:
: >extending to a .cards - i.e., I suggest splitting the group into two 
: >totally new groups:
: >
: >	rec.collecting.cards	postings ONLY about and for card collecting
: >	-and-
: >	rec.collecting.misc	
: >	-or-
: >	rec.collecting.other	postings about ALL non-card collecting such 
: >				as coins, stamps, figurines, plates, etc...
: 
: Why just two?  Why not split out some of the other "majors" (note: NOT
: being a collector I have no idea which groups would be largest, so just
: take this as an example):
: 
: 	rec.collecting.cards	-- obvious
: 	rec.collecting.coins	-- obvious
: 	rec.collecting.stamps	-- obvious
: 	rec.collecting.misc	-- figurines, plates, comics, etc....


	I like the idea of just one subgroup rec.collecting.cards for now.
This would be for ALL cards and not just sport related.  I don't believe there
is enough traffic to warrant additional subgroups for coins and stamps right
now.  We also need to concentrate on getting this one broken up.  If we try to
create too many subgroups at once, some might be created and others would
not.


-Earle
___________________________________________________________________________
            ____ ____    ___
Earle Ake  /___ /___/ / /    Science Applications International Corporation
          ____//   / / /__                Dayton, Ohio
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
     Internet: ake@dayton.saic.com         NSI-DECnet (SPAN): 28276::ake
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: nahmed@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (NAWAZ AHMED)
Subject: Re: RFD: soc.religion.islam.ahmadiyya Moderated
Followup-To: news.groups
Organization: northwestern university
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 18:59:02 GMT

In article <1756@frackit.UUCP>, dave@frackit.UUCP (Dave Ratcliffe) wrote:
> 
> 
>  In article <1992Nov1.163324.7387@ee.eng.ohio-state.edu>, rached@sample.eng.ohio-state.edu (Rached Zantout) writes:
>   > In our site, recently, a new newsgroup appeared:
>  >                      
>  >                            alt.sect.Ahmadiyya
>  > 
>  > this newsgroup is not moderated.
>  > Until now I have seen VERY light traffic on that newsgroup.
>  
>  > In my opinion, this prooves that the traffic for the proposed SRI.ahmadiyya will
>  > be less since it is moderated and most probably all the flames will not pass the
>  > guidlines of moderation. 
> 
> Faulty argument. 
> 
> alt.* is not mainstream.  alt propogation is notoriously lousy.  Using
> traffic levels in this group to predict the probable traffic in a
> mainstream group is invalid. 
> 
This faulty reasoning is answered by Mr. Dave and Nabeel Rana. I would
like to add that the heat or arguments presented from both sides and basic
differences in the way same Islam is interpreted by Ahmadis and other
Muslims is expected to be very lively discussion. Ahmadis would not limit
the discussion on any issue as they feel the need to discuss the way
present day Islam is behaving towards various issues, may it be terrorist
activities,highjacking,calling every thing muslims wish a Jihad, calling
one another not-muslim, human rights violations in muslim countries and
punishment for changing religion, to name a few. Ahmadis have different
point of views on all these issues from other Muslims and creation of this
group will help to discuss these issues. It will lesson the orthodoxy and
fundamentalism which mark todays "Islam". Ahmadis feel the kind of
behaviour displayed by other muslims is based on lack of true knowledge of
religion and that knowledge will be discussed in proposed group. For the 
Non-Muslims it will serve to bring some peace and rationality in the
troubled land of Islam after the issues are discussed. One acts on the
beliefs. Muslims believe that some one is going to come from skies and will
over-power all jews, christians, hindues and others by force and bring back
the lost glory to Muslims. Ahmadis do not believe this and say such
thinking is based on ignorance and differ in this and all other
interpretation put forward by other Muslims. So discussion is needed. This
kind of differences in perceptions of Islam are to make the proposed group
a nice place to discuss issues and a lot of traffic. It will serve the
humanity in general for producing peace after clarification of thinking.

NAWAZ AHMED
NORTHWESTERN UNIVERSITY
From: rsk@gynko.circ.upenn.edu (Rich Kulawiec)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Date: 9 Nov 92 02:21:46 GMT
Organization: GSP Whitewater Slalom Racing Team

In article <1992Nov8.222350.5269@metrosoft.com> gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen) writes:
>In article <96625@netnews.upenn.edu> rsk@gynko.circ.upenn.edu (Rich  
>Kulawiec) writes:
>> I chose "rec.music.makers.*" because I felt that it succinctly covered
>> all of the proposals. I still think that's true.
>Unfortunately it didn't come close to implying the impact of the  
>proposition. It was however succinct. 

It wasn't intended to "imply the impact of the proposition": that's
the job of the contents of the article, which explicitly stated the
consequences of each proposition in a clear, concise manner.  I don't
think it's possible to enumerate the full impact of a vote like this
on the space provided by a "Subject" line; nor is it necessary or desirable.

---Rsk
From: jodar@aludra.usc.edu (Nicholas Jodar)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: Islam and Ahmadiyya -- Enough
Date: 9 Nov 1992 00:20:36 -0800
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: aludra.usc.edu
Summary: This is logic?

In article <BxFHyu.8HI@ccu.umanitoba.ca> ijaz@ccu.umanitoba.ca (Tahir Ijaz) writes:

>I agree with Mr Rana.  The fierce debate generated only shows the need for
>this newsgroup- SRIA.

Really???  The fierce debate regarding the bad music 
newsgroup hasn't generated anything, and the traffic on
that thread makes this one look like a trickle....

-AQ