HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jns@wam.umd.edu (J. N. Shaumeyer)
Subject: Murdering Adonis
Originator: jns@rac2.wam.umd.edu
Organization: University of Maryland
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1992 17:23:58 GMT


My current reading, far from socially relevant, is
_Thus Was Adonis Murdered_, by Sarah Caudwell.  In
view of the fact that it's a crime novel, and that
I'm at the midpoint, I can't say just how much motss
relevance it has; so far, g/l topics are not
*invisible*, nor are they so far sensationalized.
[The litotes is a clue that the book is written in
the rather arch, high-falutin style that we fans of
Michael Innes swoon over, and which annoys all others.]

Anyway, there are passages in the book that were too
good simply to pass by without record:

  [The protagonist, Julia, is thinking of Ned, soon
	to be late, and his travelling companion Kenneth:]
  "I was reflecting on my proposed pursuit of Ned and
	wondering...whether it might cause distress to his
	friend Kenneth. ...I reasoned...as follows:
	(1) either Kenneth is deeply and sincerely attached
		 to Ned or he is not;
	(2) if he is not so attached, then my pursuit of Ned
		 will cause him no distress;
	(3) if he is so attached, then either the attachment
		 is reciprocal or it is not;
	(4) if it is reciprocal, Ned will reject my advances
		 and my pursuit of him will accordingly cause
		 Kenneth no distress;
	(5) if it is not reciprocal, Kenneth will suffer
		 distress whether or not I pursue Ned;
	(6) if Kenneth will suffer distress whether I pursue
		 Ned or not, my pursuit of Ned cannot be the cause
		 of Kenneth's distress;
	(7) is is therefore logically impossible for my 
		 pursuit of Ned to cause Kenneth distress."
  
[Later, she pauses to reflect upon this stunning analysis:]

  "I had already established ... that it was logically
	impossible for Kenneth to be distressed by anything that
	might occur between Ned and myself; but Kenneth, being
	an artist, has perhaps not studied logic and is unaware
	of the impossibility."

Not only this sound advice, but at another point a useful
observation to keep in mind as Julia is being warned off
Ned by the Major [who speaks first] because he suspects 
that Ned might be, well,

  " `...Just -- not the sort of chap I'd want to share a
	tent with.  Hope you don't mind my mentioning it....'
  "I [Julia] was not unduly surprised by this suggestion: it
	is almost invariably the first thing said about men with
	profiles by men without profiles.  Indeed, it is a
	benevolent dispensation of Providence that those who 
	express most dread of an unorthodox advance are usually
	those whom Nature has most effectively protected from
	any risk of one...."

--jns  [off to find out who did it]
From: huxtable@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu (Kathryn Huxtable)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Asimov and sexism
Date: 14 Apr 92 17:02:18 CDT
Distribution: na
Organization: University of Kansas Academic Computing Services

In article <57108@cup.portal.com>, Furr@cup.portal.com (George Dalton Madison)
    writes [about Isaac Asimov]:
> Not to mention pro-gay.  In one of his essays on overpopulation,
> he remarked that gay people, as a segment of the population that
> neither reproduce madly *nor harms anyone*, should hardly be
> discriminated against in any way.

Quite so.  His published opinions in his non-fiction are
all, so far as I am aware, exemplary.  I choose to ignore
the fact that he was a disgusting lech in person.

> And I have to disagree somewhat with the response to his writing,
> though I have to concede that this may be simply my male
> viewpoint. Realizing that the first three books of _Foundation_
> were written in the early 50's, characters like Bayta Darrel
> might be seen as steps forward -- and in the more recent books,
> the Mayor of Terminus was a woman (though the description was
> admittedly less than flattering.)
> 
> Not perfect, no, but far ahead of any number of others.

Bayta was *definitely* a step forward.  Of course there are
all those later '50s stories (_The Caves of Steel_ comes to
mind) where the women have *extremely* traditional roles and
utterly trivial motivations.  And then there are stories
with strong women (or at least ethical women).  "The Ugly
Little Boy" comes to mind.

Harla Branno in _Foundation's Edge_ wasn't a wonderful
character by any means but she was nevertheless a strong
character.  I think the woman in the later books who was
part of Gaia (name forgotten, sorry) was a better developed
character.  And the two female characters in _Nemesis_
struck me as being fairly reasonable.

And back in the '50s there was my idol, Susan Calvin.  The
completely logical woman.  I loved her.  I tried to be like
her.  It didn't work, of course, but I tried.

>>I still haven't quite assimilated the news of his death.
> 
> Neither have I. I'm rather surprised at the depth of the
> loss I feel.

Yeah.  For anyone who still wants to run down Asimov, I
prescribe a series of readings from his IASFM editorials.

-- 
Kathryn Huxtable              \   "Women who laugh too much, and the women
huxtable@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu   /\   who love them." --- Jamie Anderson
From: exotica@milton.u.washington.edu (Tsilke Pearlman)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: concert review
Date: 16 Apr 92 18:33:03 GMT
Article-I.D.: milton.exotica.703449183
Organization: University of Washington

Yes!

Diamada Galas is Incredible!!!

And she'll be here this Sunday - which happens to be Easter Sunday...

How did Seattle get so LUCKY?!

If you like Avante Guarde, over the top performances do not miss Diamanda.
She is one of a kind.

Tsilke, who got tickets the day she returned from Europe.
From: randyc@autodesk.com (Randy Clark)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Joanna Russ (was, Re: Asimov and sexism)
Date: 11 Apr 92 01:34:43 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Autodesk, Inc., Sausalito, CA


In article <1992Apr9.022136.11566@amhux2.amherst.edu>
twpierce@amhux1.amherst.edu (Tim Pierce) writes:
>
>For my Science Fiction class, we read a short story by Russ entitled
>"When It Changed," which we were told was the (unpublished?) short
>that inspired her to write THE FEMALE MAN.

	Tim,
	Someone else (name escapes me, but thanks) has already
	pointed out where "When It Changed" is available.

	I just wanted to add a plug for Joanna Russ's collection
	of four novellas, spread over history, called
	_(Extra)Ordinary People_.  I'm especially fond of the
	first two, but they're all good.

	-R


--
There is a sad gaiety in our love, and though we have more wit
than Sunday lovers by the water's edge, our wit attracts misfortune.
							-- Genet
Randy Clark			{}!autodesk.com!randyc
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: kiser@ifi.unizh.ch (Markus Kiser)
Subject: Re: Responding to Bigots
Summary: confusion
Organization: University of Zurich, Department of Computer Science
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 92 17:54:52 GMT

In article <1992Apr11.152637.27868@macc.wisc.edu> anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson) writes:

Jess pointed out to me a while ago:

>>>one result of the repeated harrangues
>>>of the asterisked jerks (yet another has just reappeared) is
>>>that the stupidity and obvious bigotry of their remarks
>>>could well backfire, in effect waking up people who
>>>themselves haven't thought much yet about the discrimination
>>>we are so familiar with.

And I replied:

>>What restricts your argument a bit is that soc.motss is
>>still likelier to be a place where gay people find good
>>arguments than a place where bigots get inspiration for
>>their bigotry.

...and this is where the problems began:

>I'm not sure I get your point here; maybe "restricts" wasn't
>the word you wanted?  Seems more like "bolsters" or
>"additionally supports" would fit better.

which was exactly what I did NOT mean to say...

"What 'weakens' your argument a bit" might have been a
better word to use here.

Bigots in soc.motss can wake up bigots, but at the same time
people responding to them can also wake up gay and lesbian people
and help them find their arguments. The fact that the latter is
still much likelier to happen makes your argument seem a little
less dramatic than it might sound at first (at least, than it
sounded to me at first).
 
--markus
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: rjwill6@PacBell.COM (Rod Williams)
Subject: Re: Lip synching and stuff
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Francisco
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1992 23:42:28 GMT

> ACM022@Zeus.unomaha.edu (John Dorrance) writes:
>> rjwill6@PacBell.COM (Rod Williams) writes:

>> all of Bette Midler's "Live At Last" (I'm dating myself :-))
>> all of Carole King's "Tapestry" (while I'm at it :-))
>> all of Pink Floyd's "Dark Side of the Moon" (I'd better stop now...)
>
>...and you *don't* date yourself with...
>
>> "Stairway To Heaven", Led Zeppelin

Seems like every time I put the radio on 'scan', I pick up
"Stairway To Heaven" in some dark corner of the spectrum.
But when's the last time you heard a Sophie Tucker story?
Or "Doctor Long John"? :-)
-- 
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
rod williams -=- pacific bell -=- san francisco -=- rjwill6@pacbell.com
From: wood@jfred.siemens.com (Jim Wood)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Gay Oscars
Date: 6 Apr 92 16:46:14 GMT

rogerk@QueerNet.ORG (Roger B.A. Klorese) writes:

>wolfe@wolves.uucp (G. Wolfe Woodbury) writes:
>> 	Does anyone else think it was hypocritical of Michael Douglas to
>> be wearing a red ribbon in the light of the effect his role in Basic
>> Instinct has on GBLO minorities?

>(a) Clearly, not in Mr. Douglas' mind, and (b) if we are to accept our own
>cries of "AIDS is not just a gay disease," not in mine either... it is quite
>possible to care about AIDS and be homophobic.

(a) Not so clearly: what if Michael Douglas doesn't mind being a
    hypocrite?

(b) Yes, just witness the proliferation of AIDS groups for women
    and children with AIDS.  Translation: AWABUF (anybody with AIDS
    but us faggots).

Jim Wood [wood@siemens.siemens.com] (609) 734-3643
  "Even if complaints about man-bashing in this film were 99% true, it still
   wouldn't make up for the years of portraying women as bimbos in movies."
     - Geena Davis, about "Thelma & Louise"
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson)
Subject: Re: Mormon pamphlet
Organization: Madison Academic Computing Center, UW-Madison
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 92 11:05:03 GMT


In article <LXcZiB3w164w@batpad.lgb.CA.US>
mike@batpad.lgb.CA.US (Mike Batchelor) writes:

>anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson) writes:

>> But as soon as I can get out
>> there, I'll show you, ah, more, ah, juxtapositions.  How
>> *is* that big juxta, anyway?

>It's plotting a junta.

Oh baby!  Maybe I'll surrender.

-- 
Jess Anderson <> Madison Academic Computing Center <> University of Wisconsin
Internet: anderson@macc.wisc.edu <-best, UUCP:{}!uwvax!macc.wisc.edu!anderson
NeXTmail w/attachments: anderson@yak.macc.wisc.edu  Bitnet: anderson@wiscmacc
Room 3130 <> 1210 West Dayton Street / Madison WI 53706 <> Phone 608/262-5888
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: giovanni@spdcc.com (Giovanni Gallo)
Subject: Oscar winner 'Mediterraneo'
Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting, Cambridge MA
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1992 20:34:47 GMT

Yesterday I went to see the Oscar winner Italian movie 'Mediterraneo'.
Nice views of the mithic Greek sea, but most of all an abundant exposure
of almost-naked mediterranean men. Some of them quite sexy IMHO.
Except for this the movie wasn't that good: 1000 miles away from the poetry
of 'Nuovo Cinema Paradiso'. So don't rush to see it in the theater, but you
may want to rent it in few months from now.

There is also this other motss-point in it:
in a quite incongruent way one of the character 'comes out' in the very
last minutes of the movie.
It is a completely out of place vignette with this guy who have
been going to the prostitute house with his friends for years, and acted butch
for all the movie, suddenly acting nelly and confessing to one of his buddies
to be in love with him.
I don't know If I was more furious with the director or with the audience of
the theather laughing at the silly sequence.

			Hugs Giovanni
From: wlp@calmasd.Prime.COM (Walt  Peterson)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Pride events this summer
Keywords: SF Freedom Parade, NY Pride Parade
Date: 13 Apr 92 19:14:04 GMT
Organization: Computervision, A Prime Company. San Diego R&D

In article <1992Apr13.070052.22109@schaefer.math.wisc.edu> junikka@schaefer.math.wisc.edu (Jari Junikka) writes:
>Anyone know the dates for the marches/rallies/parades
>in NY and SF? 

According to the person with whom I spoke at the San Diego Gay &
Lesbian Community Center, the following are some of the West Coast
Dates:

	Long Beach	May 16 & 17
	LA		June 27 & 28
	San Francisco	June 28
	San Diego	July 18 & 19


-- 
Walter L. Peterson                    |                 ______
Internet   : wlp@calmasd.Prime.COM    |       Silence   \    /   Action
CompuServe : 70441,3177               |          =       \  /      =
"Generic Disclaimer"                  |        Death      \/      Life
From: roger@quantime.co.uk (Roger Phillips)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: These Boots Weren't Made For Walking
Date: 15 Apr 92 03:05:29 GMT
Reply-To: roger@quantime.co.uk (Roger Phillips)
Organization: Quantime Ltd, London (software for market research)

In article <s398oINN8bb@agate.berkeley.edu>,
gnn@mastodon.cs.berkeley.edu (George Neville-Neil) writes:
> In article <1992Apr9.082607.14630@reed.edu> nelson@reed.edu (Nelson Minar) writes:
> >My favourite pair of shoes are *none at all*. I'm a barefoot boy.
> > ...
> >I love the little Chinese black slippers. They're cheap, portable, can
> >pass as semi-formal wear, and are comfortable...
> >
> Thank goodness.  I thought I was the only fag who loved those things.

I wore them ten years ago, because they were *cheap*,
but I always found they made the ground I walked on too hard.
I like to keep the soles of my feet soft and ticklish;
My sole worships Doc Martens, for they are bounciful.

-- 
Roger Phillips                            roger@quantime.co.uk
"Cards came next to cross-word puzzles in Lucia's index of inanities."
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: dise@vector.uoregon.edu (David Ellsworth-Casti)
Subject: Re: Mormon pamphlet: "For Young Men Only"
Organization: University of Oregon Network Services
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 92 20:22:39 GMT

Being only recently freed from Mormonism (and well on the way to recovery, I  
might add), I also have to dispute this Kincy fellow's defense of doctrine.

Mormonism includes a very intense xenophobia that soundly stomps out diverstity  
in any one of its guises.  Indeed, part of the Celestial Kingdom business is  
that not only will you be a god, but you will be EXACTLY LIKE everyone else who  
is there.  In fact, as one advances ever higher into righteousness and glory  
after death, the differences between people go away until at the pinnacle,  
there is only one mold that everyone is pressed out of.  Contrastly, the lower  
kingdoms are characterized as having diversity and differentiation -- and that  
is viewed in a negative light.

Don't talk to me about tolerance.

At least Kincy admits that he has never talked with anyone in the leadership of  
the church about this.  He says "it wasn't an issue of much discussion".  Well,  
if he were to read his Bishop's Manual, he would find that homosexuality was  
grounds for immediate excommunication.  Period.

Nelson's story is interesting, but I think he'd find that his gay friend is not  
allowed to hold positions of leadership or give public prayers or speeches or  
anything of the sort.  Even if he wasn't formally disfellowshipped, he was  
certain to be informally.  (Of course, you could never prove such a claim...)

Actually, I've found that as you move away from Salt Lake, the church becomes  
less fundamentalist, because it can.  In Utah, the church must avoid the  
appearance of running the government and microscopically analyzing people's  
lives.  Outside Utah, there is no need to even be covert about it.
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: ACM022@Zeus.unomaha.edu (John Dorrance)
Subject: Re: Seasoned Motssers (was Re: Responding to Bigots)
Organization: University of Nebraska at Omaha
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1992 00:27:25 GMT
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.11

In <92104.151318IO81409@MAINE.MAINE.EDU> Ailsa writes:

> hmm...  when i become seasoned (how long does that take?), what
> seasons will i be?
>                                        -ailsa

Yeah! Me too! After all, what am I, chopped livah?

(I've been waiting to say that...)

Leaving himself wide open too (Who's wider, Ailsa or John? Find out at
the .con!),

---
John Dorrance				** Disco Diva y Flamenco Chico **
ACM022@zeus.unomaha.edu
	You bring me to my knees while I'm scratching at the eyes
	Of a world I want to conquer and deliver and despise.
From: rogerk@QueerNet.ORG (Roger B.A. Klorese)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Regarding the NY/NJ CON Proposal
Date: 7 Apr 92 02:33:47 GMT
Article-I.D.: queernet.1992Apr7.023347.6962
Reply-To: rogerk@QueerNet.ORG (Roger B.A. Klorese)
Organization: QueerNet

In article <1992Apr6.234101.13960@reed.edu>, nelson@reed.edu (Nelson Minar)
writes:
|> I live in Portland. I chose to live in Portland. I love this city. It
|> offends me when you call it a backwater. You're certainly welcome to
|> offend me, of course.

I understand that the things that make cities "backwaters" are the things that
make them attractive to other people... all of the "liveability" factors, for
example.  But for a vacation spot, for me at least, "liveability" is so much
shit.  I don't want to visit anyplace because it's comfy, pretty, socially
enlightened, or offers any of the things I can undferstand wanting in a home.
I want to visit places that have lots of high- (and low- and queer-) culture
things to do.  Hey, if it weren't for some of the queerness aspects and the
presence of my industry here, I doubt that I'd choose to visit San Francisco.
I'm offended in a similar way when someone calls New York City a filthy,
depressing scumpit, as you are when someone calls Portland a backwater.  It's
not that New York isn't a filthy, depressing scumpit... it's just that, to me,
that's the way cities should be, and any higher on the liveability index and
lower on the stress index is just second-rate.

|> As for whining, if you really want to make the con be somewhere other
|> than Portland, that it's your own fucking job to get off your ass and
|> do something about it. As it is now, it just sounds like you're being
|> offensive for no particular purpose.

My point was, simply, that I was dismayed at how easily the NY/NJ crowd
passed on the opportunity.  I *would* work on another SF con... I just
don't think we should have one.  (I'd favor London or Paris, actually.)
-- 
ROGER B.A. KLORESE                                              +1 415 ALL-ARFF
rogerk@unpc.QueerNet.ORG                 {ames,decwrl,pyramid}!mips!unpc!rogerk
"Normal is not something to aspire to, it's something to get away from."
                                                                   -- J. Foster
From: chrism@hpic001.mentorg.com (Chris McCabe)
Subject: RE: Auto-Fellatio (Re: Heterosexual Exploitation of Homosexuality?)
Originator: chrism@hpic001
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1992 18:21:28 GMT
Organization: Mentor Graphics 
Keywords: 
Followup-To: 



In a previous article, twpierce@amhux1.amherst.edu (Tim Pierce) wrote:
|> On the other hand, I've heard that it is a physical impossibility for
|> women (I tend to distrust such absolutes, though) but that one in five
|> men are capable of giving it to themselves.
|> 
  And you can bet they do!  Do you suppose their Mother would tell them
"Stop that or you'll get stuck that way!" like she did when you made a
screwed up face?  Could be embarassing I guess.  (So, how did it happen?...)

  This reminds me of something I saw somewhere once :

  Q:  Why do dogs lick their own dicks?

  A:  Because they can!!!

-- 
Chris McCabe   chris_mccabe@mentorg.com
    Mentor Graphics Corporation
(503) 685-7000 (w)   (503) 232-4250 (h)
From: gsmith@concour.cs.concordia.ca (Gene Ward Smith)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Depressing Scumpits? Re: Regarding the NY/NJ CON Proposal
Date: 11 Apr 92 02:36:56 GMT
Organization: Centre Interuniversitaire en Calcul Mathematique Algebrique

In article <1992Apr9.225717.18820@spdcc.com> dyer@spdcc.com (Steve
Dyer) writes:
>In article <3316@daily-planet.concordia.ca>
gsmith@concour.cs.concordia.ca (Gene Ward Smith) writes:

>I spent the weekend in Montreal after the Toronto con, and
>the city seemed so _drab_ in a weird way.  I can't quite put my
>finger on it, but it didn't have the spic-n-span quality of
>Toronto, or much of the liveliness.

It may not have the spic-and-span quality, but I really wonder about
this liveliness remark. This is a lively place. The usual comparison
of the gay communities I hear (not all from Montrealers either) is
that Toronto is more political, and Montreal is more open and lively.

>St. Catherine's street (one of the so-called gay areas) seemed less of
>a neighborhood and more like a few gay sex shops in an
>undistinguished, seedy area.

Part of St. Catherine street is the gay village area, the main gay
part of town. Your description sounds more like the rather seedy area
next to the village to me. The gay village has a definite neighborhood
feel; it has a lot of brightly painted gay-gentrification housing, and
a lot more to offer than a few gay sex shops. Sheesh!

--
     Gene Ward Smith/Brahms Gang/CICMA/Concordia University 
                  gsmith@concour.cs.concordia.ca
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: jakec@ralvmm.vnet.ibm.com (Jake Coughlin)
Subject: Re: GLB+ hangouts on the Internet
Originator: jakec@ralvmm.vnet.ibm.com
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 92 14:49:45 GMT
Organization: IBM T. J. Watson Research

twpierce@amhux1.amherst.edu (Tim Pierce):
>>Maybe we could pick a time, open a channel, and have a soc.motss
>>get-together [on IRC] without the Portland sometime.
> 
> Even better than that, let's start a newsgroup for gay issues, and
> have a soc.motss .con _constantly_, all year-round.

well, someone post a date and a time.  i played with IRC.  once.
"HATED IT!"  but a soc.motss chat might be really interesting...
-- 
Jason Coughlin ( jakec@ralvmm.vnet.ibm.com )
Queer Without A Cause!
"I find myself suddenly in the world, and I recognize that I have one
right alone: that of demanding human behavior of the other." -- Fanon
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: twpierce@amhux1.amherst.edu (Tim Pierce)
Subject: Re: ???Behaviorist Brainwashing????
Organization: Amherst College, Amherst, MA
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1992 04:13:11 GMT

In article <1992Apr8.230219.15863@awdprime.austin.ibm.com>
jfh@greenber.austin.ibm.com (John F Haugh II) writes:

>In article <1992Apr7.230933.5407@amhux2.amherst.edu>
>twpierce@amhux1.amherst.edu (Tim Pierce) writes:
>
>>In article <1992Apr7.054858.3022@news.unomaha.edu>
>>ACM022@Zeus.unomaha.edu (John Dorrance) writes:
>>
>>>Seems to me that attraction to children is an entirely
>>>different thing form being attracted to motss or motos.
>>
>>Exactly.
>
>Duh.  Aren't you one of the people that blamed child molestation
>on us evil heterosekshual people?  Aren't you the person trying
>to define what is and isn't heterosexuality?  Shouldn't you let
>heterosexuals decide who is and isn't straight?

Why should I?  The heterosexuals I have met who have even a single
clue about the nature of sexual identity are approximately one out of
a hundred, if that.  Most heterosexuals, not having been forced to
consider gayness or straightness for more than a moment, simply have
almost no perspective on issues of sexual orientation, as compared
with queer people.

Flames about "homocentrism" will be promptly ignored.  I am speaking
about matters of life experience.  There are exceptions to the rule I
describe above, but it remains that most heterosexuals have not been
as deeply touched by questions of sexual identity as most queer
people.

Let's see how many sendsys bombs THIS one gets me ....

-- 
____ Tim Pierce                / "Someone here suggested blue square badges for
\  / twpierce@amherst.edu      /  straights.  Maybe we should try mauve
 \/ (BITnet: TWPIERCE@AMHERST) /  heptagons?" - Damian Cugley, on soc.bi
Newsgroups: soc.motss