From: demers@cs.ucsd.edu (David DeMers)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: RP/PA for AL and NL (More bogus RP stats)
Date: 21 Jul 92 21:54:02 GMT
Organization: =CSE Dept., U.C. San Diego

In article <Brr616.wI@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu> djohnson@cayley.waterloo.edu (David Johnson) writes:

>What you don't think that a player who has more RBI and Runs than anyone
>else on the team isn't valuable.  A guy with a lot of RBI and Runs scored
>for their team as compared to other players shows that that player has been 
>more productive in the opportunities he has got than other players on his
>team.

BUT the opportunities are NOT distributed evenly up and down the lineup.
What it probably tells you is where the player batted in the lineup.

...

>But this stat will show the ability of Carter to drive in runs when he
>gets a chance to.  California scores less runs because they get less
>opportunities to do so thus Carter as an individual player will have less
>opportunities as well and thus his RBI and Run total will go down.  

So if you look at RBI/opportunities, you should get an even BETTER measure, right?
Carter stinks on that stat.

This
>value I find with this stat as compared to others is that it doesn't
>depend as much on the players who hit in front and behind him as some stats
>do.

??? of course it does!  It rewards players with bad teammates and penalizes
players with good teammates.  McGriff's RBI count is pretty good, but he's
behind Sheffield, who 18 times has cleaned the bases.  I don't have the
opportunities handy, but I'd expect that McGriff is probably pretty high
in RBI %, based on runners on base.  Of course, that's a safe statement
to make for anyone with 60+ RBI by the all-star break.

>>What fraction of the '27 Yankees' runs did Babe Ruth drive in?  Compare that
>>with Nate Colbert on the Padres of the early '70s.  Was Nate Colbert more
>>valuable than Babe Ruth?

>>The problem with this "more valuable to his team" thing is that you give a
>>player credit for having rotten teammates, which is silly.  Colbert may or may

>A good player should get some Credit and not be brought down just because
>he has poor teammates.  We are trying to evaluate a player fairly not
>make him look bad because he has bad teammates.

So why not examine stats that the player himself generates, not stuff like
RBIs which may or may not be valuable?
 
...


>But isn't that what we want when comparing players.  How would he do on an
>average team rather than a good team or a poor team.  The problem with
>RBI and RUNS is that it depends too much on what the players are hitting 
>around him are doing.

RIGHT!

  In my example i made Carter the *same* player on
>different teams and giving Carter the same rating on whatever team he
>plays on is the best thing about this stat.  Carter should be just as
>good of a player on California as Toronto it is just that he will be less
>productive because he gets less opportunities.

And RBI and R don't measure the opportunities.




-- 
Dave DeMers			 ddemers@UCSD   demers@cs.ucsd.edu
Computer Science & Engineering	C-014		demers%cs@ucsd.bitnet
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