HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: dadams@cherry.cray.com (David Adams)
Subject: WELCOME + CHARTER
Originator: dadams@cherry
Organization: Cray Research, Inc.
Date: 30 Jul 92 15:20:44 CDT




Hello,

	I would like to offer a word of thanks to all those who helped
	to make this become a reality.  

	Here is the charter which was given in the original RFD which
	we voted on:

	And thanks again to all those who sent their votes in!





Name:	rec.food.historic.

Charter:

        This group is dedicated to discussing and discovering how food
        was made and prepared way back when--From ancient times down until
        (& possibly including or even going slightly beyond) the times when
        industrial revolution began to change our lives in so many ways.
        The emphasis is on re-discovering lost or *out of fashion* historic
        food making arts.  This would include the following subjects as
        well as others:
				

	Research and discussion of old recipes, 
		and ways to replicate them today.

        Historic use of herbs both for food and for medicine.
                Was there any basis for aunt Em's remedies?
                etc.
 
        Winter Storage of Food.
                -root cellaring
                -meat curing
		-historic uses of culturing for preserving food
			brine curing pickles
			cheese making
			soy sauces
			biology of cultured food making.
                etc.

        Old fashioned cooking tools & utensils
                Dutch ovens
		(Maybe someone could give me some more examples here?)
                etc.

        Food history-- pre-modern.
                -not limited to ideas of European origin.

        and many other historic or antiquated food topics.



Status:

        Unmoderated.  It is not suspected that this group would
        have an extremely controversial nature, and hence the services 
	of a moderator are deemed unnecessary.  

Rational:

	The idea for this group came about mostly from some discussions
	in the sourdough mailing list, by those who found they had some
	common interest in some areas beyond sourdough. 

        This group is not meant to supplant or replace any of the
        groups in the rec.food.* hierarchy, rather it is meant as
        a supplement to all of them.  

 




--David C. Adams  Statistician  Cray Research Inc.  dadams@cray.com
__________________________________________________________________
Did you know that most Americans eat over a ton of dirt every day?
-- 
--David C. Adams  Statistician  Cray Research Inc.  dadams@cray.com
___________________________________________________________________
       member--Minnesotans for Global Warming.
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
From: vincent@reg.triumf.ca (pete)
Subject: Re: Garam
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: dept. of theophysics and cosmogyny
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 11:51:00 GMT

In article <157semINNi3i@darkstar.UCSC.EDU>,
 lafolle@ucscb.UCSC.EDU (90262000) writes...
>Indian spice concoctions.
> 
>	The Romans (we're talking the Republic and the Empire here,
>not modern-day) were known to use a particular sauce called "garam",
>which was made from fermented fish and a few other ingredients.  Since
>learning about this sauce, I've experemented a bit with Thai cooking,
>which uses a fermented fish sauce in much the same way the Japanese
>use soy sauce.  It occurred to me that there probably wouldn't be
>a huge difference.
> 
>	I've talked to a few people who have tried to recreate garam, and
>they have universally failed to create something edible.  It would make
>sense to me that such a thing would happen-- if I were try to brew
>my own soy sauce starting with soy beans I'm sure it would come out 
>wretched, and the margin for error in fermented fish could be *revolting*.
> 
>	Has anyone out there experemented with Garam?  Or perhaps
>know of any Historical Roman recipies that call for it?  I'd *love*
>to try to make this work.
> 
Sorry, I can't help with that specifically, but it reminds me of
a wonderful (^: (^: (^: recipe I heard on the radio a few weeks
ago, which everyone should know. It's a northwest coast native
delicacy, and I swear it's the truth. You take the heads off
all the fish you catch, salmon, cod, trout, whatever; and put
them in a bucket. You want a few pounds worth. Then you bury
it in the back yard for a couple of weeks (preferably middle
of summer). Then you dig it up, and enjoy! Sounds even better
than the pygmies favourite, fermented elephant entrails!
     It had a semi-pronouncible name, but I'm afraid I've
 forgotten it.
> 
===========================================================================
Mmmmmmmm what smells so good?                         Pete Vincent
From: ccaaaxd@ucl.ac.uk (Alan Deacon)
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: Re: Sea-biscuit/hard-tack
Date: 31 Jul 92 09:54:58 GMT
Organization: Bloomsbury Computing Consortium

greg@netcom.com (Greg Bullough) writes:

>Anyone good a good formula for the above?
> 
>Greg

Haven't got recipe to hand and might take a few days to get. Will
mail when I have. Basically flour water baked, dried in air and baked
again. Repeat if gets soft. Our recipe came from the National Maritime
Museum, who also claimed to have a source for weavils. [Most of my
weavils come in flour from India, not certain they are the same sort].
I think the iron-rations used in the first world war might have been
similar, as they had to soak their biscuit before eating. You might
try your friendly neighbourhood War Museum.
-- 
	Alan Deacon
	Central Computing Service		Email: a.deacon@ucl.ac.uk
	University College London		Tel: +44 71-380 7359
	Gower Street, London WC1E 6BT		Fax: +44 71-388 5406
--
	Alan Deacon
	Central Computing Service		Email: a.deacon@ucl.ac.uk
	University College London		Tel: +44 71-380 7359
	Gower Street, London WC1E 6BT		Fax: +44 71-388 5406
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
From: rath@binah.cc.brandeis.edu
Subject: mongolian food processor
Reply-To: rath@binah.cc.brandeis.edu
Organization: Brandeis University
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 02:02:19 GMT

Below is posted w/o permission from the HISTORY list, but I thought it
would be pertinent to this group...there was a whole thread that went on
for weeks about various foodstuffs through history...this is all I saved, 
but if there is interest, I might be able to retrieve the rest of the 
thread...recipes for what many would now consider household pets and stuff.
 bon apetit, 
  Rich
====================from HISTORY LIST++++++++++++++++++++++
From:	IN%"HISTORY@RUTVM1.BITNET"  "History" 11-JUN-1992 09:12:11.37
To:	IN%"RATH@BINAH.CC.BRANDEIS.EDU"  "Rich Rath"
CC:	
Subj:	What do we owe the Mongols.

Someone asked about Mongol cusine.
 
I read that a famished Mongol horseman would stop momentarily, open a vein
in the neck of his horse, drink some of its blood, and, refreshed,
resume Threatening Western Civilization.
 
I also read that a Mongol horseman would put a piece of raw meat under his
saddle and, after a long day's Threatening of Western Civilization, pull it
out nicely tenderized and consume it with gusto.
 
I also read that a Mongol horseman preferred to ride a mare, so that he
could stop for a refreshing draught of mare's milk.
 
I also read that a Mongol horseman might keep some of the milk of his
mare in a pouch hung around her neck, where it would ferment and produce
a salubrious and mildly intoxicating beverage (cf. W.C. Fields)
 
I also read that a Mongol horseman, having done the same thing with cows'
milk, found that the souring and agitation of the liquid as he rode had
converted it into a fatty type of cheese which is now known as "butter"
from the Greek "boutyros," or "cow cheese." (The author had obviously
confused the Mongols with the Scythians, but what the hay.)
 
I also read that a Mongol horseman, carrying cows' milk in a pouch newly-
made from a cow's stomach, having placing it in the warmth beneath his cantle,
found that it had turned into a viscous rennet-like substance that soon
and thereafter was known as yoghurt. (Same author; see note above)
 
All of which has led me to conclude that the Mongol horse was some form of
ambulatory food processor.
 
Lynn

===============================================================
From:	IN%"PARSON_R@CUBLDR.Colorado.EDU" 11-JUN-1992 21:15:58.95
To:	IN%"rath@BINAH.CC.BRANDEIS.EDU"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: What do we owe the Mongols.
 
>As a former chef who has gone back to school, I am always interested
>in new cuisines and recipes.  Might you post or e-mail to me the
>titles of said Mongol food processing sources?
>        Best,
>        Rich Rath
>        rath@binah.cc.brandeis.edu
 
 Take a look at Ammianus Marcellinus, 4th century AD. (Actually he was
 talking about the Huns.) I think he describes some of these recipes.
 I'll check tonight.
 
 Robert
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
From: rons@hardy.u.washington.edu (Ronald Schoenberg)
Subject: Re: WELCOME + CHARTER
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 16:54:45 GMT

In article <0095E5A5.6236A280@Msu.oscs.montana.edu> oopcv@Msu.oscs.montana.edu writes:
>In article <1992Jul30.152044.4627@hemlock.cray.com>, dadams@cherry.cray.com (David Adams) writes:
>>        Historic use of herbs both for food and for medicine.
>>                Was there any basis for aunt Em's remedies?
>>                etc.
>> 
>How about the folklore, too?  I'm curious what people have heard about the
>emotional effects of spices.  For example, I heard somewhere that cinnamon is
>supposed to be a 'mood elevator,' making one 'chipper.'  So, between the herbs
>and spices, we should all be able to have a better day, right?

My sister who lives in Anchorage says that fermented fish (an earlier topic 
here) is a popular food here among Alaskan natives because it gives
them a "buzz".  She knows about the food because she is in the medical
service there and cases of botulism are a common outcome of the
consumption of the fermented fish (I can't remember what it was called
there).  She says the botulism occurs because they wrap the fish in
plastic bags before burying in the ground.  If they didn't use plastic
the botulism wouldn't occur.



Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
From: ritter@claude.ma30.bull.com (Roger Ritter)
Subject: Re: pre-1600 Polish food (was Re: Ha!)
Organization: Bull HN Informations Systems Inc.
Date: 29 Jul 92 20:49:48 GMT

julie@eddie.jpl.nasa.gov (Julie Kangas) writes:
>But that brings up a question.  Was
>the potato substituted willy-nilly for turnips in Europe?  I know
>in many countries potatoes were looked upon with suspiscion and
>it took some doing by the various governments to get people to eat them.  

From a Blackadder II episode:  "People will be eating them next!"
-- 
Roger Ritter N1FZZ (R.Ritter@ma30.bull.com) PP-ASEL, AGI
1946 Luscombe 8A N71983 "Rocky"
Sheep do not so much fly as plummet!        NH CAP: Profile 49

Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
From: tac@cs.brown.edu (Ted A. Camus)
Subject: potatoes introduced in europe
Organization: Brown University Department of Computer Science
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 21:38:42 GMT


julie@eddie.jpl.nasa.gov (Julie Kangas) writes:
  
>I know in many countries potatoes were looked upon with suspiscion and
>it took some doing by the various governments to get people to eat them.  


  For the interested, my father once told me that (I think) 
  Louis XIV used some reverse psychology to speed the potato's
  introduction.  He posted some guards around the royal potato
  fields, and ordered them to look the other way when the 
  now-interested peasants sneaked in and stole a few :-)

  
==========================================================
  Ted Camus                          Box 1910 CS Dept 
  tac@cs.brown.edu                   Brown University
  tac@browncs.BITNET                 Providence, RI 02912
From: jvp@juliet.ll.mit.edu ( Jim Pieronek )
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: Re: Lobster food for peasants ( Was: potatoes introduced in europe)
Date: 30 Jul 92 17:55:52 GMT
	<6840@bigbird.hri.com.hri.com>
Organization: M.I.T. Lincoln Lab - Group 43


   In article <1992Jul30.124413.16074@dragon.acadiau.ca>,
   alan@dragon.acadiau.ca (Alan McKay) writes:

   > This reminds me of a story I heard that at the turn of the century
   > lobster was regarded as food for peasants.  Can anyone verify this?


It is well known that in the early part of this century lobsters that
were accidentally caught in the nets of Boston fishermen were used to
feed the area's prison population.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
J.V. Pieronek                           Internet: jvp@ll.mit.edu
M.I.T. Lincoln Laboratory               (617) 981-3468
From: shava@hermes.oit.unc.edu (Shava Nerad Averett)
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: Re: Potatoes
Date: 30 Jul 92 22:53:55 GMT
Organization: University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill

In article <1992Jul30.142502.26778@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> tlh8c@faraday.clas.Virginia.EDU (Thomas Lee Horton) writes:
>The sweet potato was eaten first, and in the 16th and 17th centuries were
>believed to be aphrodisiacs; whence Shakespeare's usage of the term
>"potato finger" (though I know not from which work this phrase comes).

Actually, just for the botanically-pure, the sweet potato isn't even related
to the white potato (which actually comes in shades of white, yellow, red,
purple, and blue).  The sweet potato is an ipomaea (sp?), from the morning
glory family.

It is also not related to the yam, which is southeastern asian and south
pacific in origin.  In ancient china, the yam was not thought of as food
fit for human consumption, so it grew wild in the woods.  Then when a 
famine hit, there were always some fine yams for people to eat when the
"real" food ran out.  An interesting cultural protection mechanism...;)



-- 
Shava Nerad Averett				shava_averett@unc.edu
/*  all materials (c)1992, Shava Nerad Averett, and have nothing significant
    to do with the University of North Carolina, a mostly owned subsidiary 
    of the NC Legislature, a mostly owned subsidiary of the DOT.      */
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
From: rjwill6@PacBell.COM (Rod Williams)
Subject: Re: Historic Food
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Francisco
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 00:05:49 GMT

Oh silly me -- I thought this newsgroup was where I should
rhapsodize about Cynthia Pawlcyn's *faaabulous* spit-roast
duck at Bistro Roti, or Jeremiah Tower's legendary Roast
Salmon on a bed of Fava Beans at Stars -- a couple of
historic meals I've had in San Francisco... :-)
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
rod williams -=- pacific bell -=- san francisco -=- rjwill6@pacbell.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
From: dadams@cray.com (David Adams)
Subject: mailing list needed
Reply-To: dadams@cray.com
Organization: Cray Research, Inc.
Date: 30 Jul 92 16:31:36 CDT

One piece of unfinished business:

I have had several people contact me about the possibility of creating a 
mailing list to echo this newsgroup for the benefit of those who do not
have access to the USENET.  

I am not able to take up the responsibility of another mailing list,
so I wonder what options are available to us.  Does anyone know
how to get a LISTSERV list going?  Does anyone know how to get an
echo or feed from the newsgroup to the list the way rec.equestrian does?

Thanks.



---
--David C. Adams  Statistician  Cray Research Inc.  dadams@cray.com
___________________________________________________________________
       member--Minnesotans for Global Warming.
From: ccaaaxd@ucl.ac.uk (Alan Deacon)
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: Re: Honey cakes
Date: 30 Jul 92 10:13:44 GMT
Organization: Bloomsbury Computing Consortium

grm+@andrew.cmu.edu (Gretchen Miller) writes:

>Wow, an almost virgin newsgroup on which to ask questions!  Be still my
>beating heart !!:-):-):-)

>Anyhow, I've recently started looking into historic sweets using honey. 
>I've found several mentions of such things, and one modern recipe for
>what amounts to baclava cookies (honey and walnut filling in a rolled
>bisquit dough), but was wondering if anyone could point me to any
>pre-1600 recipes for such things. 

>Thanks!

>toodles, gretchen

>(grm@andrew.cmu.edu)

I have a couple of recipes for basically honied french toast. These are
Medieval. The simpler one was called Poor Knights, and then there is a
quite rich one. Will post again with actual recipes. Honey appears in a
lot of Medieval and Tudor recipes, it was later replaced by Sugar when
that started to get cheaper. A lot of Tudor cooking mixes sweet and
savory things in the same dish, so Honey also appears in lots of dishes
other than just sweetmeats.

Glad to see the group getting off to a good start.
-- 
	Alan Deacon
	Central Computing Service		Email: a.deacon@ucl.ac.uk
	University College London		Tel: +44 71-380 7359
	Gower Street, London WC1E 6BT		Fax: +44 71-388 5406
--
	Alan Deacon
	Central Computing Service		Email: a.deacon@ucl.ac.uk
	University College London		Tel: +44 71-380 7359
	Gower Street, London WC1E 6BT		Fax: +44 71-388 5406
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
From: oopcv@Msu.oscs.montana.edu
Subject: Re: Tofu
Reply-To: oopcv@Msu.oscs.montana.edu
Organization: Montana State University
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 15:07:34 GMT

In article <1992Jul30.230959.21848@samba.oit.unc.edu>, shava@hermes.oit.unc.edu (Shava Nerad Averett) writes:
>
>In article <Bs7sBG.ALp@helios.physics.utoronto.ca> dooley@helios.physics.utoronto.ca (Kevin Dooley) writes:
>>In article <Bs7L9E.Fv5@acsu.buffalo.edu> v128juxa@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (SCHUYJUANNAH) writes:
>
>It's my opinion that tofu is considered 'health food' in the US for
>two reasons:
>	
>	Most americans ran into it first in health-food stores
>	Most americans don't know how to cook with it or appreciate
>		it, so it is denigrated as health-food.
>
Main reason:  it tastes like chalk, so it must be good for you.

Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
From: amlsmith@morgan.ucs.mun.ca (Andrew Smith)
Subject: Pre 1600 anything
Organization: Memorial University of Newfoundland
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 14:48:51 GMT


OK, now wait just one sec........
I've seen several "pre 1600" articles here already.
Is this just a popular date to call "historic".

Or am I counting a sizeable SCAdian population here?

Andrew/ Sebastian

Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
From: amlsmith@morgan.ucs.mun.ca (Andrew Smith)
Subject: Re: Historic Food
Organization: Memorial University of Newfoundland
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 14:46:14 GMT

In article <sooz.712448342@vincent1.iastate.edu> sooz@iastate.edu (Susan F Bradley) writes:
>In <15718sINNdr6@rodan.UU.NET> evie@rodan.UU.NET (Evie Allen) writes:
>
>>In article <92211.150749U21187@uicvm.uic.edu> John Schulien <U21187@uicvm.uic.edu> writes:
>>>As recently as 1991 my old roommate's fridge had a vintage 1987 bowl of
>>>fettucini. My parents have a box of breakfast cereal in the pantry with
>>>an expiration date of 1972. Does this qualify as historic food?
>>>
>>Hey that works for me!!     
>>What kind of cereal would that be?  Wheaties last forever!
>
>Me too! And I would think that the fettucine would qualify as a new life form,
>perhaps even a sentient being by now!
>
How long will this keep going?
On an even less serois note, one of our sentient beings wouldn't let
us in the fridge. (BTW his name was Fred, if you are interested.)
It ended OK, though, the potato salad got it. It's a sorry day for
veggies everywhere when potato salad goes bad.

Andrew
From: kinsey@worf.nas.nasa.gov (Cassandra L. Baldassano)
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: Re: potatoes introduced in europe
Date: 30 Jul 92 15:29:32 GMT
Reply-To: kinsey@worf.nas.nasa.gov (Cassandra L. Baldassano)
Organization: Numerical Aerodynamic Simulation Facility NASA

About a year ago I took a small seminar in medieval cooking, the
following is what I remember from the session:

Potatoes (and Tomatos) were not commonly used in europe until after
1600, although they were brought over in the early 16th century
explorers. Both of these plants are members of the deadly nightshade
family, which was well known in Europe. Most members of the nightshade
family are completely poisonous. The potatoe and tomato, however, are
the specific part of the plants that are not poisonous (you never want
to eat the leaves of either of these plants). Most of the peasants
knew about nightshade and refused to eat the potatoe or tomato.

Only through much persuasion were the peasants finally convinced that
these plants were not harmful.

I heard one story, that a baron had to send armed guards around a
field of potatoes to prevent the peasants from burning the crop
down. Forced the peasants at gun point to harvest the potatoes and
again (at gun point) to eat them once they were cooked.
From: dtate+@pitt.edu (David M Tate)
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: Re: Ha!
Date: 30 Jul 92 17:18:31 GMT
Followup-To: alt.usage.english
Organization: Factors of Ys, Inc.

In article <1992Jul30.140415.26334@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> clc5q@hemlock.cs.Virginia.EDU (Clark L. Coleman) writes:
>In article <1992Jul29.172702.14056@ucsu.Colorado.EDU> dixon@spot.Colorado.EDU (Life is real?) writes:
>>===========================================================================
>>| Brian Dixon              | "Good judgement comes from experience...     |
>>| dixon@spot.colorado.edu  |    and experience comes from bad judgement!" |
>>===========================================================================
>
>And bad spelling comes from spelling "judgment" as "judgement" ......

Oh, put a sock in it, Clark.  Check your OED.  Both spellings have long and
distinguished histories.  My sources tend to list 'judgement' as "especially
British alternative", or words to that effect.

The notation for 'judgment' is (or should be) "preferred by pedants".

(And yes, I *do* put my periods outside the quotation marks deliberately.)

>"It is seldom that any liberty is lost all at once." David Hume

The liberty to spell creatively is nearly an exception.  The invention of 
the printing press brought it crashing down upon us, even in the absence
of an Academie Anglaise...

Followups to alt.usage.english

-- 
      David M. Tate      | From my dugout sleep I fell into the Game
 dtate@unix.cis.pitt.edu | And I crouched in the circle while my insides froze
 Randall 'Chico' Jarrell | One out from death, one hit from dreamt-of glory
"Death of a Pinch Hitter"| I woke to 'Strike One!' and the nightmare sliders...
From: stp@controls.ccd.harris.com (Stephen T. Pierce)
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: 14th Century Chinese Cooking
Keywords: 14th Century, Chinese, Request
Date: 29 Jul 92 20:41:54 GMT
Followup-To: poster
Organization: Harris Controls
Originator: stp@rs2


Anybody got any documentation on 14th Century Chinese Cooking?  Most of the
Chinese recipes I can lay my hands on have New World ingredients which just 
won't do for my purposes.

Thanks,
   Steve
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Date: Wednesday, 29 Jul 1992 15:07:49 CDT
From: John Schulien <U21187@uicvm.uic.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: Historic Food

As recently as 1991 my old roommate's fridge had a vintage 1987 bowl of
fettucini. My parents have a box of breakfast cereal in the pantry with
an expiration date of 1972. Does this qualify as historic food?

Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
From: rajen@majestix.cs.uoregon.edu (Rajendra Nath Datta)
Subject: Re: pre-1600 Polish food (was Re: Ha!)
Organization: CS Dept, University of Oregon
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 04:45:44 GMT

Lonely? With about 11 posts??

Anyhow, could somebody summarize the way the potato travelled into kitchens
all over the world? I do not think that it is a all over the world? I do not
think that it was a native to Indian cooking, but it certainly seems 
popular now. I suppose that it being cheap and filling has something to with
its popularity.

Do enlighten.

Rajen