HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jgoldber@todah.chem.utoronto.ca (Joel Goldberg)
Subject: Re: Why I think Kach's policies are racist (AND DANGEROUS)
Organization: University of Toronto Chemistry Department
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1992 17:44:59 GMT

In article <1992Nov15.171359.244@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca> jgoldber@todah.chem.utoronto.ca (Joel Goldberg) writes:

  I just want to add one more thing to my little manifesto. The reason
  people don't feel that they need to read R. Meir Kahane's writings in
  minute detail to dismiss him as a racist
  is that any other time they've come across someone else who
  claims to have a simple, one stroke solution to a complex problem
  that person has invariably been a racist. Moreover, if they have
  achieved power they have brought retardation, if not outright
  destruction, onto the heads of their societies. This is true for
  everyone's favourite example of evil incarnate all the way down to
  such local heros as Alberta's Bible Bill Aberhart and his $25 social
  credit idea. 

  The ledger is overwhelmingly weighted on the side of simple solutions
  proposed by racists, and their failure. The broad public is aware,
  on a cultural level, that this is true and this is why they tend to
  reject out of hand anyone new who proposes similar easy answers.
  Now David Makowsky will answer "Even if this is true (and I'm not
  agreeing that it is) Kach deserves to be judged on its merits."
  This of course brings us full circle. He won't spell out how Kach
  differs from Xism (see my previous posting) and he won't address
  why the usual constellation of forces that have destroyed all other
  "simple solutions" won't come into play with respect to Israel. The
  unstated answer, as always, is that God will protect Israel. This
  in turn brings me to my point that Jews are not commanded by God
  to be Xist, (whatever else we may be commanded _to_ be) and thus
  saying that God will protect Israel is to do the unJewish thing of
  commanding God to perform miracles (ie. to thwart the aforementioned
  usual constellation of forces--the natural order of things).

  I don't want to accuse D. Makowsky of something before the fact, but
  if you do respond with "you're wrong" and nothing else, I won't
  feel that my argument has been materially weakened.
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Autopsy - Kahane and Rosenbaum
Date: 18 Nov 92 00:55:16 GMT
Organization: The Department of Redundancy Department

In article <1992Nov11.161001.2799@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca> jgoldber@todah.chem.utoronto.ca (Joel Goldberg) writes:
>In article <1992Nov10.155327.11995@bony1.bony.com> jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni) writes:

>>It's easy for a Jew in Israel to criticise dead Jews on
>>soc.culture.jewish.  Would that others were as tolerant of such deep
>>criticism; We already know that others are tolerant of such deep hate.
>>
>>Surely, Warren, you could have done better than this.

>  I don't see how. One of Israel's greatest strengths, recognised
>  implicitly by the arguments advanced by her adversaries, is her striving,
>  however imperfectly, for a moral society. There is no shame in this,
>  as I think you in fact agree.

In fact, I proudly agree with you on this.

>  Last night on CBC radio's "As it Happens" they interviewed an
>  Arab-Israeli lawyer, who had just won a case against the government.
>  The army (Tzahal) had been found to have wrongly caused the death of
>  one, and the injury of another, Palestinians (non-Israelis). The
>  government has been ordered to pay compensation. 

This is what the the news report said.  Now what did you hear?

>  To my mind, the
>  most telling indictment of Israel's adversaries is that they would
>  think that this reflects negatively on Israel.

Unfortunately, many people who hear this news news hear it differently
than you do.  To THEIR mind, Israel is admitting to being a terrorist
state, supporting ethnic cleansing, blah blah blah, etc.  True, this
IS an indictment of the anti-Israel crowd but we still have to deal
with them.

The shrill criticism of Kahane by other Jews, did not enhance the
position of Jews as much as it darkened the image of Kahane,
deservedly or otherwise.  This very witch-hunt, which some Jews pursue
with a sense of self-laudatory satsifaction, produced a jury in NY
State that ACTUALLY BELIEVED that El Sayid Nosair did not shoot Kahane
and that Meir Kahane was actually shot by one of his own followers in
public in a Manhattan hotel.

There is no danger in telling the truth (or there shouldn't be in an
ideal system) but putting things into a perspective, something so
often lost in a world of sound-bites and short attention spans, is
terribly important.  Meir Kahane was probably no worse than the Arabs
outside Israel whom he opposed or the Arab members of Knesset inside
Israel who kept their posts while Kahane was legislated out of
existence.  Calling Kahane a racist for opposing an Arab takeover of
Israel from within is akin to calling Israel's retaliations against
Katyusha fire "terrorist acts".  Lot's of people today are saying
both.  

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com              10 years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions. standard of a failed President.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: seth@inst-sun1.tmc.edu (Seth Chazanoff)
Subject: Re: My interpretation and yours
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, CA, USA
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1992 00:07:45 GMT

David

	Re: The invalidity of "Messianic Judiasm"

	The real problem with so-called "Messianic Judiasm" is that there is
already something else just like it with a different name.  That is something 
else is called Christianity.  

	I have nothing, personally, against Christians.  I do however have 
MAJOR problems with people who come to my door, or stand outside my synagogue
(one did on Yom Kippur) and preach to me (I do not and will not preach to
them).  I also have MAJOR problems with people who are Christians who feel that
they have to claim to 'really' be Jews.  "Jews for Jesus" and other such groups
receive LARGE amounts of funding from the avangelical christian movements for
the express purposes of tricking REAL Jews into becoming christians.  It is 
dishonest, and reprehensible.

	If when we both go to "lie with our fathers", and if I find that during
my life I was wrong, and there is, indeed, a hell, I am sure that it will have
very special place reserved for people who feel that they have to lie and trick
people to come to what is suppose to be an honest belief.

	Do us both a favor, be a Jew or be a Christian, don't attempt to be
both, you will only confuse yourself and anger the rest of us.

				Seth

P.S.  As a (late) friend of mine use to say "Never try to teach a pig to sing.
It frustrates you, and annoys the pig"
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: reid@metis.tti.com (Reid Kneeland)
Subject: JPFO
Organization: Transaction Technology, Inc.
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 18:16:37 GMT

I'm trying to find out information about an organization called the
JPFO, Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership.  If anyone can
tell me anything about this group, please send me E-mail.  I'll post
a summary.  In particular, I'm curious how they compare to the JDL.

Thanks.

=====================================================================
Reid Kneeland
reid@tti.com  (that's MISTER reid@tti.com to you!)
Transaction Technology Inc., Santa Monica, CA, USA (310) 450-9111 x2499
The opinions expressed above do not necessarily etc etc...

Never trust a man who can count to 1,023 on his fingers.
From: ehrlich@bimacs.BITNET (Gideon Ehrlich)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Kach and terrorism
Date: 20 Nov 92 11:43:25 GMT
Organization: Math department, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, ISRAEL

In article <92323.1854102893684@QUCDN.QueensU.CA>
2893684@QUCDN.QueensU.CA (andy) writes:

>From the Globe and Mail, 18 November 1992
>
>(Reuter) Police in Jerusalem detained a member of an extreme right-wing Jewish
>group yesterday in connection with a grenade attack that killed one Arab and
>wounded 12. A police spokesman said a member of the Kach movement was
>questioned about Monday's attack in the Old City.
>

That person was released shortely after , since it becomed
 cleare he has nothing to do with the case.

Shalom   Gideon     ERETS YISRAEL
From: todd@reed.edu (Todd Ellner)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Killing Lice on Shabbat and the Nature of Honey
Summary: Sorry folks, the revered sages were just plain wrong
Keywords: Entomology, honey, lice, 1st century science
Date: 19 Nov 92 23:44:19 GMT
Article-I.D.: reed.1992Nov19.234419.20909
Organization: Reed College, Portland, Oregon

The arguments you bring up are very interesting. The opinions of the sages
are impeccably researched. The intellectual gymnastics you go through are
impressive. There is just one problem. They are wrong. Lice reproduce in
the normal way. They don't come from perspiration. They don't spontaneously
generate. One can examine all the arguments from the Talmud and even call
up an angel with a flaming sword, but the simple fact remains that G-d 
Himself has decreed that lice are creatures like any other. You might make
a case for killing aphids since they are parthenogenic, but not lice, fleas,
ticks, scorpions or any of our other friends.

Now as to honey, my wife-the-entomologist says that honey is produced in the
following way:

The bee sucks up the plant juices and holds them in its crop. When it is 
time to put the honey into the comb it is regurgitated and the bee holds
each drop between its mandibles and manipulates it. The honey is mixed with
salivary juices and digestive enzymes (including a whole bunch of anti-fungal
and anti-bacterial compounds whose names I can't pronounce) and divested
of almost all of its water by evaporation. In short, the honey is processed by
the bee and is much different than the plant juices from which it originated.
The bee does these things in order to turn the nectar into something more
compact and more resistant to spoilage. It is in no wise identical to raw
plant juice.

-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Todd Ellner  todd@reed.edu 
"What has the study of biology taught you about the Creator Dr. Haldane?"
JBS Haldane:"I'm not sure, but He seems to be inordinately fond of beetles."
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: tjm@hrt213.brooks.af.mil (Tim Miller)
Subject: Re: What _is_ the procedure for conversion to Judaism?
Organization: AL/HRTI, Brooks AFB
	<FAIGIN.92Nov12075256@soldan.aero.org>
	<1992Nov16.180654.24734@cbnewsl.cb.att.com>
	<FAIGIN.92Nov16125305@soldan.aero.org>
	<765302d4094964t154@witsend.uucp>
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 21:33:05 GMT

On Sunday, 22 November 1992 11:12:00 MST, "D. C. Sessions" <dcs@witsend.tnet.com> said:

 D>   An interesting interpretation.  Does that mean that if the rabbi
 D> forgets to mention a prohibition ( for instance, adultery) then the
 D> convert can go right ahead?

	As I recall hearing once, no-- but if he does, the sin falls on
the convert and the rabbi (for not teaching it properly).  This is one
of the reasons conversion is a long, slow process-- so nothing is left
out. 

-- Cerebus <tjm@hrt213.brooks.af.mil>
"I'm in the 'pipeline' (as we say here) finally!  Cerebus finally got
 the guts to go talk to the rabbi, and in a year's time, G-d willing,
 I'll be Jewish!"
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: dfs@doe.carleton.ca (David F. Skoll)
Subject: A Modest Proposal (was Re: NO WAY! (Re: A message from Kach...))
Organization: Dept. of Electronics, Carleton University
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 18:48:59 GMT

In <92322.135608YZKCU@CUNYVM.BITNET> Yaakov Kayman
<YZKCU@CUNYVM.BITNET> writes:

>I don't believe for one INSTANT that this attack was the work of Kakh!

Fine.  The latest status is that the Israeli police suspect Kach or
Kahane Chai members, or Jewish residents who lived near the market.

>Rather, it was almost certainly that of some group seeking to further
>muddy Kakh's name. Kakh is not so stupid, nor is it so amoral, let alone
>immoral. THis, after all, is MURDER, hardly anything ***RABBI*** Kahane
>might ever have given his approval to!

I have a modest proposal for Mr. Kayman.  If it should prove that the
attack was not the work of a Kach of Kahane Chai member, I will
publicly apologize for implying any connection, and for damaging the
memory of Rabbi Kahane.

In return, however, if it proves that the attack was the work of Kach
or Kahane Chai, will Mr. Kayman publicly denounce the organization
responsible and remove his support for it?

Seems like a fair thing.  Mr. Kayman, what do you say?  If you're
that confident, you have nothing to lose.

--
                     |         | "Step up and shake the hand
David F. Skoll       | ||||||| |  Of someone you can't stand,
|_ _ _  __   __ _ __ |  \\V//  |  You can tolerate him if you try..."
 / |  | |_|   | |  | |  __|__  |  -- Tom Lehrer, "National Brotherhood Week"
_____|________________________________________________________________________
From: aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Shaqeeqa)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Welcome to s.c.j.
Date: 20 Nov 92 23:54:43 GMT
Organization: University of Colorado at Denver

In article <4484@bimacs.BITNET> ehrlich@bimacs.BITNET (Gideon Ehrlich) writes:
>
>Here's one you didn't see in the American press:

But one that we saw in talk.politics.mideast.  It was my understanding
that politics were not discussed in this newsgroup.  Everytime someone
sends mail that sheds a negative light on Israel/politics, it is returned
with - 'don't you know by now that ...' , 'this forum is to designed to
discuss Jewish culture ...', etc.  I guess it is acceptable because it,
somehow, is an 'evidence' that promotes this 'Arab conspiracy' to destroy
helpless little Eretz Yisrael.  Correct?

>"We must force the Israeli society to establish mutual relations with a
>society bigger than it [the Arabs].  That is, our Arab society, following
>which it will be possible to gradually dissolve the Zionist entity."
>
>        Faisal Husseini, speaking to the Arab Youth Club in Amman, Jordan,
>        quoted in "Ha'aretz", 11/15/92

Quoted in "Ha'aretz"?  How accurate can that be?  From the newspaper that
refers to Arabs as terrorists.  And if it is, infact, accurate, 'the
Zionist entity' could be referred to the philosophy that has for 50 years,
discriminated against the Arabs and almost succeeded in forcing the
population to be subserviant.  It is, in my honest opinion, not directed
towards the Jewish people as a whole.

I am not justifying Mr. Husseini's perspective (if it is, indeed that),
but I don't like these overtones - that the Arabs are never to be trusted
and therefore, we will never give in to their 'demands' for autonomy and
rights as a people.  But who said the current Peace Talks have anything
to do with Palestinians - except that they are used to promote the interests
of Israel and the other Arab nations.

Anisa
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: cohen@quartz.ciw.edu (Ronald Cohen)
Subject: Re: Conversion Question
Date: 19 Nov 92 22:36:43 GMT
Organization: Geophysical Laboratory, CIW

In article <9211181847.AA12561@cyclone.sbi.com> <gertler@cyclone.sbi.com (Don Gertler)> writes:
>I, for one, am not excluding ANY Jews from our religion.  The number
>of disputed individuals is very small relative to the number of Jews.
>I question only "converts" who did not convert according to Halakha.

Actually that's not true.  You (i.e. orthodoxy) question
converts who were converted according to the halacha, but by
Rabbis that do not subscribe to your political movement.

>Observant or not, a Jew is a Jew.  It is OUR religion, I agree.  That's
>why it's so sad that 90% of us reject it.

I don't know who these 90% are.  Are observant jews that don't
subscribe to orthodoxy rejecting Judaism?!  Fortunately, no.
-- 
Ronald Cohen
Geophysical Laboratory, Carnegie Institution of Washington
5251 Broad Branch Rd., N.W.,  Washington, D.C. 20015
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: warren@nysernet.org (Warren Burstein)
Subject: Re: Embarrassment
Reply-To: warren@nysernet.org
Organization: Mail to News Gateway at Wang Labs
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 09:01:27 GMT

In <1992Nov15.135950.5621@discus.technion.ac.il> ben@vmsa.technion.ac.il writes:

>As a biographical sidenote: This TWERSKY AND A.J. HESCHEL WERE NAMED FOR THE
>SAME GRANDFATHER.

One year at the annual Mossad HaRav Kook book sale I noticed a
biography of Avraham Yehoshua Heschel.  What?!?  Oh, it was the first
one (the Apter) not the second.

Since we've mentioned him, a short story from Buber's "Tales of the
Hasidim"

    Before he died the rabbi of Apt ordered his sons tohave no other
    words of praise carved on his tombstone than: "He who loved Israel."
    That is the inscription on the stone.
-- 
/|/-\/-\          Adif tzav pinui metzav shmoneh.
 |__/__/_/    
 |warren@         "Warren's slogan is an Anti-semite slogan."
/ nysernet.org 			    Gideon Ehrlich
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: nmiller@starbase.trincoll.edu (norman miller)
Subject: Re: JPFO
Organization: Trinity College, Hartford, CT.
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 20:44:50 GMT

In article <1992Nov19.181637.26524@ttinews.tti.com> reid@metis.tti.com (Reid Kneeland) writes:
>I'm trying to find out information about an organization called the
>JPFO, Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership.  If anyone can
>tell me anything about this group, please send me E-mail.  I'll post
>a summary.  In particular, I'm curious how they compare to the JDL.
>
>Thanks.

News of this organization comes on the heels of my discovering that
the Republican Party's chairman is a Jew.  A starnge world.

It also reminds me, Mr. Reid, of the aphorism of Walther von Rathenau, 
foreign minister during the Weimar republic.  Von Rathenau, himself a
Jew, said: "When a Jew tells you that he hunts _and enjoys it_, he lies."

>Reid Kneeland

Norman Miller
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Conversion Question
From: Yaakov Kayman <YZKCU@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Date: Monday, 23 Nov 1992 13:58:50 EST
Organization: City University of New York/ University Computer Center

In article <9211191341.AA28592@host0.COLBY.EDU>, jjsulliv@COLBY.EDU (Nice Young
Lady(tm)) says:
>
> stephenp@cix.compulink.co.uk (Stephen Phillips) writes
>
>>In-Reply-To: <11Nov92.023342.14066@granite.ciw.edu> cohen@quartz.ciw.edu
>(Ronald
>> Cohen)
>
>>> +From         : cohen@quartz.ciw.edu (Ronald Cohen)
>>> +Subject      : Re: Conversion Question
>>
>>> In article <92315.121602YZKCU@CUNYVM.BITNET> Yaakov Kayman
><YZKCU@CUNYVM.BITNE
>>> wr
>ites:
>
>>> I think Rambam had the right point of view on this.  He states
>>> that one should not investigate a family to see if they are
>>>....

Your pardon, folks, but Yaakov Kayman wrote nothing of the kind!
I don't know who did, but it was NOT yours truly!!!

Yaakov K.
--------
Yaakov Kayman      (212) 903-3666       City University of New York

BITNET:   YZKCU@CUNYVM        "Lucky is the shepherd, and lucky his flock
Internet: YZKCU@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU     about whom the wolves complain"
From: weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Pierced Ears
Date: 17 Nov 92 20:36:22 GMT
Reply-To: weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener)
Organization: The Wistar Institute of Anatomy and Biology
In-reply-to: nadel@attatash.aero.org (Miriam Nadel)

In article <1992Nov17.172607.1732@speedy.aero.org>, nadel@attatash (Miriam Nadel) writes:
>Many surgical procedures make someone more comfortable though the
>condition in question is not life-threatening.  As a more common
>example, consider removal of wisdom teeth.

Before antibiotics, wisdom teeth impaction *was* life threatening.
-- 
-Matthew P Wiener (weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: emc@doe.carleton.ca (Eli Chiprout)
Subject: Re: Mathematical Proof of G-d?
Organization: Dept. of Electronics, Carleton University
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 22:55:42 GMT

In <1992Nov17.201618.293@msuinfo.cl.msu.edu> friedenb@case-l5.egr.msu.edu (Gedaliah Friedenberg) writes:
>It can be proven that :    i(Pi)                          
>			  e	= -1      (Where Pi is 3.1415927....)

>Consider the following:

>e   is the basic element of Calculus
>i   is the basic element of the imaginary number system
>Pi  is the basic element of Geometry
>=   is the basic element of Algebra
>-   is the basic element of Addition (along with + which could be included in
>                                      the above equation before the e)
>1   is the basic element of the real number system

>This equation proves (?) that G-d must exist.  Who could create a
>universe where all of the basic elements of mathematics could combine
>to make such a simple equation?  

Consider a universe where such an equation would NOT hold.  
What would it be like?

>Gedaliah Friedenberg
>-=-Department of Mechanical Engineering
>-=-Department of Metallurgy, Mechanics and Materials Science
>-=-Michigan State University


>                   
--
Eli Chiprout                 
Dept. of Electronics, 
Carleton University, Canada
emc@doe.carleton.ca                                     
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: isaac@etrog.se.citri.edu.au (Isaac Balbin)
Subject: Re: Pierced Ears
Organization: Collaborative Information Technology Research Institute
Date: 16 Nov 92 21:40:45 GMT

faigin@aero.org (Daniel P. Faigin) writes:

>On Thu, 12 Nov 92 17:03:47 +0100, tichauer@valpso.hanse.de (Manfredo Tichauer) said:

>>   If so: Is plastic surgery for aesthetics reasons forbidden for a Jew ? 

>(from American Reform Responsa, pg 544)

>			    172. COSMETIC SURGERY
>			(Vol. LXXVI, 1976, pp. 94-96)

>An interesting recent discussion was given by Moshe Feinstein, the prime
>contemporary Orthodox authority (in his Igerot Mosheh, Choshen Mishpat #103).
>The specific question with which he was dealing was the following: May a man
>give his blood to the blood bank for pay? On the face of it this should be

etc

I think it is time we got some more modern `Responsa' from the Reform.
Rav Feinstein specifically ruled on plastic/elective surgery, and so there
is no need to extrapolate from older Orthodox Responsa.

-----
``Orthodox Judaism: moves with the times, but isn't moved by it.''
From: weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: early man.
Date: 19 Nov 92 13:44:54 GMT
Reply-To: weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener)
Organization: The Wistar Institute of Anatomy and Biology
In-reply-to: warren@nysernet.org (Warren Burstein)

In article <2857@israel.nysernet.org>, warren@nysernet (Warren Burstein) writes:
>According to both groups, the skeletons [of early hominids] certainly
>would not be those of Jews.  I don't know if this would make any
>difference.

It would to a cohen!

Are cohanim allowed to engage in field archaelogy?
-- 
-Matthew P Wiener (weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: Seth Ness <ness@aecom.yu.edu>
Subject: Re: Halacha when the decisive facts were wrong (was Re:
Originator: scj@israel.nysernet.org
Reply-To: <Seth Ness <ness@aecom.yu.edu>>
Organization: Nysernet
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 03:49:52 GMT

not since the beginning of this century has 'electricity is fire' been
used as the reason for forbidding electricity on shabbat and even then it
was used by very few and not accepted as a legitimate justification



Seth L. Ness                         Ness Gadol Hayah Sham
ness@aecom.yu.edu                      




Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish