HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Date: Thursday, 17 Dec 1992 18:29:51 CST
From: <U52148@uicvm.uic.edu>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
Subject: Re: Labudova pjesma (Re: REPETITIO MATER STUDIORUM EST
 <92352.031003U15231@uicvm.uic.edu>

In article <92352.031003U15231@uicvm.uic.edu>, <U15231@uicvm.uic.edu> Zlatko
Sijercic says:
>
>Predanje kaze da labud kada umire pjeva svoju najljepsu pjesmu. U slucaju
>gospodina Kovacevica moglo bi se reci: dok koljacka tvorevina velikosrba
>umire, gospodin Kovacevic pjeva svoju najgnusniju laz. Medjutim u jednom je
>on u pravu: tri puta su Muslimani dozvolili da ih Srbi masakriraju:
>1914-1922, 1941-45, 1992.
>
>I dobro ti ono rece Kovacevicu: nece biti cetvrtog puta!
>
>
>Zlatko Sijercic
>
Imam bolju pjesmu. Srbski Komsija Hercegovac ne prasa. Tam gdje je Srbija
stici ce te cak I ja!

or how about. Drinu treba pregaziti I srbiju zapaliti.

-Cro
Xref: sparky soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna:901 soc.culture.yugoslavia:10176 soc.culture.croatia:161
From: sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna,soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.croatia
Subject: Serbian twisted view of Germans
Date: 20 Dec 92 21:31:00 GMT
Organization: Enea Data AB

Milan Stojanovic (stojanov@husc11.harvard.edu) writes:
>Anyway, Serbs by the definition were not a minority in SFRY, because
>they were constituent nation.   Now, that situation has changed, and with
>one signature EEC has turned Serbs into minority in ex-Bosnia and
>ex-Croatia, but Serbs do not recongise it. And they will fight until
>there is a change in that decision.

Is that the only way Serbs know to change their situation? Start a
war and brutally kill people? Don't you guys know of any more
civilized ways?

>No, some rather near future will show the exact percentage of those
>supporting the right-wingers there. Descriptions of people watching
>with joy youngsters beating Turks are pointing in this direction.

Please do also include the manifestations *against* racism and
neo-nazism which have been held in Germany. Manifestations which
have attracted a large number of people.

>>How many attacks have Serbs committed against their Croats, Muslims,
>>Albanians and others this year?
>
>Against Albanians much less than Germans attacks on Turks.  Far less.

Milan Stojannovic, you are a big fat liar. In Germany there is
small group of extremists guilty to these attacks. I read in
the paper that there 2200 deed recorded for 1992 with 900 persons
wounded and 17 killed, indeed a tragic number. But in Kosovo the 
scheme is government-sponsored, and hardly a single Albanian is
untouched by the oppression. Of course, we can call it one single
attack if you like - but it's a goddamn big one.

It's sickening to see you trying to blackpaint the German people 
because of a small number of extremists, when a far greater deal 
of your own people is engaged in systematic killing, which you 
even seem to justify.

What was spelt Germany (and Croatia) in WWII is very tragically 
spelt Serbia in 1992.
-- 
Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - sommar@enea.se
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
From: faruk@bcars6f5.BNR.CA (Faruk od Bosne)
Subject: Re: little lies... 
Reply-To: faruk@bnr.ca
Organization: Bell Northern Research, Ottawa, Canada
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 92 02:51:53 GMT


In article <1992Dec10.093423.18345@husc3.harvard.edu>,
stojanov@husc11.harvard.edu (Milan Stojanovic) writes:
|> In article <ByzqzG.1M5@news.cso.uiuc.edu> brg6080@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu
(Rasputin) writes:
|> >faruk@bcars6f5.BNR.CA (Faruk od Bosne) writes:
|> >>If the people of Sandzak and Kosovo do not want to live within Serbia,
|> >>why are the serbs forcing them to do so? That is my basic question.
There is
|> >>a Jewish proverb: good fence makes good neighbors. It is very true.
|> >
|> >According to the New York Times, Sandjak is 56% Muslim.

According to 1991 census Vojvodina is only 54% serbian.

Faruk.

Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna,soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: ghito@eos.ncsu.edu (GENT  HITO)
Subject: Re: The Albanians (was Re: Minorities in majority ...)
Originator: ghito@c00313-11pa.eos.ncsu.edu
Keywords: Dead Muslims
Reply-To: ghito@eos.ncsu.edu (GENT  HITO)
Organization: North Carolina State University, Project Eos
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 03:17:21 GMT



In article 13821::soc.culture.yugoslavia aludra.usc.edu (Abdul Qadir) writes:

> Aren't the Albanians in Kosovo extinct, by now?


2000 years ago were the Romans... They came, they left, we remained...

1500 years later were the Osmans... They came, they left, we remained...
(yes, with some alien words in our language, but even those are dying 
 day by day...)

Somewhere in between there were people from the North. Many people...
They have already left too. A long time ago... Only some of them just
refuse to believe the fact...

I named only three. They were not the only ones. Many others passed
through. Most of them thought they would stay forever, but they left
too. We remained. In the land of our forefathers.

'Extinct'?  Now ?????

Maybe some people are preparing yet another frightful tale for 

my grandchildren. But... 'extinct'?  

No, that's just about too much.

______________________________________________________________________
P.S.>  I do not read this newsgroup anymore. Please spare your flames.
   
  

 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna,soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.croatia
From: blazic@ecf.toronto.edu (BLAZIC Joseph R)
Subject: Re: Minorities in majority and other silly stuff
Organization: University of Toronto, Engineering Computing Facility
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 07:58:29 GMT

In article <1992Dec14.151311.18480@husc3.harvard.edu> stojanov@husc11.harvard.edu (Milan Stojanovic) writes:
>
>According to the P. Carrington and S. Vance, the recognition was
>strongly pushed in EEC by one member.  

That was recognition of Slovenia and Croatia.  Bosnia's recognition, on
the other hand, was pushed mostly by the UN (i.e. the US).  Carrington
and Vance conveniently ignore this fact (i.e. wash their hands).

/Joe Blazic
Xref: sparky soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna:806 soc.culture.yugoslavia:10027
From: jodar@aludra.usc.edu (Nicholas Jodar)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna,soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: The Albanians (was Re: Minorities in majority ...)
Date: 13 Dec 1992 17:35:36 -0800
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: aludra.usc.edu
Summary: What's the scoop regarding Kosovo?
Keywords: Dead Muslims

In article <1992Dec13.200652.15888@enea.se> sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog) writes:

>And the Albanians were not worthy being a "nation" but only a "minority"?
>Funny, they were more numerous than the Slovenes, weren't they? And
>tell me who are in majority Kosovo?
...
>--
>Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - sommar@enea.se

Aren't the Albanians in Kosovo extinct, by now?  The last we
heard before the news blackout was that they had been surrounded
by the Serbs.  Unlike Bosnia, this was simple extermination, the
Serbs starting on the perimeter and wiping everybody out as they
pushed toward the center.

That was weeks ago.  Surely the Serbs have finished 'cleansing'
Kosovo by now....

-AQ
From: sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
Subject: Re: little lies...
Date: 20 Dec 92 22:02:55 GMT
Expires: Thu, 14 Jan 1993 23:00:00 GMT
Organization: Enea Data AB

Faruk od Bosne (faruk@bnr.ca) writes:
>(not others, although serbs would like to see the fight between Croats and
>Muslims in Bosnia - fat chance),

Not only the chance is fat, the sad thing is that it has already
happened. Even worse is that we have had Croats fighting Croats.

>Albanians from Kosovo are fighting only serbs (not Croats or Muslims ...)

If things get messy in Macedonia, who do you think the Albanians
will fight?

>Therefore the conclusions of those facts are that serbs are fighting
>non-serb peoples of ex-Yu, and no other ex-Yu peoples have been thrown 
>against each other.

A lie, a myth, a piece of propaganda, make your pick. Truth it ain't.
-- 
Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - sommar@enea.se
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
From: faruk@bcars6f5.BNR.CA (Faruk od Bosne)
Subject: Re: Labudova pjesma (Re: REPETITIO MATER STUDIORUM EST
Reply-To: faruk@bnr.ca
Organization: Bell Northern Research, Ottawa, Canada
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 92 15:05:42 GMT


In article <724630459@locust.cs.duke.edu>, wiener@duke.cs.duke.edu
(Edward Wiener) writes:
|> 
|>    Did Serbs really massacre Moslems in the years 1941-45?
|>    Note to Vic Wick, Cro, and Matanic:  This is a serious
|>    question, in no way intended as sarcasm.
|> 
|>    If anyone can provided information and references, I
|>    will be most grateful.

There is (about 500 pages) book written by Vladimir Dedijer which 
describes those masacres.

|> -- Eduard

Faruk.


Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
From: cicic@cc.uow.edu.au (muris cicic)
Subject: Re: REPETITIO MATER STUDIORUM EST
Organization: University Of Wollongong
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 92 06:54:08 GMT



Tebi ce, izrode neljudski, narod suditi.  I nemoj misliti 
da se sirenje lazi ne racuna u zlocine.  Sa tim ste poceli, 
s tim cete i zavrsiti.

Muris
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
From: sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog)
Subject: Vreme, the Chetnik paper
Organization: Enea Data AB
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 20:13:18 GMT

Faruk od Bosne (faruk@bnr.ca) writes:
>I did, VREME is cetnik's weekly, the seed of hatred against non-serbs.

Some weeks ago I was accussed for being a Chetnik extremist,
this time Vreme is at the target. Vreme which has been writing
anti-Milosevic articles since Milan Pavlovic knows when. Vreme
which last of all hail any Serbian state or greatness, but has
strongly criticized the on-going atrocities. Actually, sometimes
it's difficult to believe that Vreme is a Serbian magazine.

But, I suppose since Vreme at some page somewhere said something
critical about Bosnia-Hercegovina it is by definition Chetnik.

Boy, I got news for you: the world is full of Chetniks.
-- 
Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - sommar@enea.se
From: stojanov@husc11.harvard.edu (Milan Stojanovic)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
Subject: Re: little lies... (was: Re: CANADIAN UN GEN. McKENZIE)
Date: 12 Dec 92 21:48:29 GMT
Organization: Harvard University Science Center

In article <Bz46Eo.AA9@ecf.toronto.edu> blazic@ecf.toronto.edu (BLAZIC Joseph R) writes:
>In article <1992Dec10.093423.18345@husc3.harvard.edu> stojanov@husc11.harvard.edu (Milan Stojanovic) writes:
>>According to the official census, what is Rascia is 55% Serbian/
>
>Milan, you have a terrible habit of submitting useless information.
>What is "the official cencus"?  It is difficult to take your information
>on faith.

1991, 1998, 1971 census data.


>
>
>/Joe Blazic

MNS
Xref: sparky soc.culture.croatia:156 soc.culture.yugoslavia:10169 soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna:898
From: ghusic@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.croatia
Subject: re: Tudjman of Croatia is ...
Date: 16 Dec 92 09:51:00 CST
Organization: University of Kansas Academic Computing Services




>I have an extraordinary pleasure in posting this:

 First of all, I find it hard that anyone can derive any pleasure from
this tragedy in the Balkans. Secondly, I'm bothered by these kind of
dishonest postingss. Not the the facts a dishonest, Tudjman is probably
an anti-Semite, but the implication is that see! Tudjman is an anti-semite
so lets forgive the Serbs for their unparalled barbarity againt Croatia
and Bosnia. Don't get me wrong, I ddon't think Serbs are evil, but I am
very disappointed that they have allowed themselves to be brainwashed
and whipped into hysteria but a maniac like Milosevic and I'm especially
disturbed hearing that educated Serbs in this country are also spewing
the same mindless garbage.

===============================================================================
APn  12/11 1238  Israel-Croatia
   JERUSALEM (AP) -- Israel will not establish diplomatic ties with the
                     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
breakaway Yugoslav republic of Croatia because it considers its president,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Franjo Tudjman, an anti-Semite, a newspaper reported Friday.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
   The decision was made this week by senior Foreign Ministry officials in a
closed meeting, the Maariv daily said.
   Foreign Ministry spokesman Eviatar Manor said he knew of no such decision and
would not confirm or deny the report.
   In 1989, Tudjman published a book which, Israeli officials say, contains
hostile references to Israel and Jews.
   The Jewish state recognized Croatia on April, 10 months after it seceded from
Yugoslavia. But Jerusalem indicated at the time that Tudjman's views, combined
with Croatia's support for Nazi Germany during World War II, would keep it from
establishing diplomatic ties.
   During World War II, Croatia was governed by the fascist Ustashi party that
joined in sending Jews to German Nazi death camps. Israel believes Croatia has
never owned up to its past.


##########################################################################

Regards, 

Newsgroups: soc.culture.croatia
From: faruk@bcars6f5.BNR.CA (Faruk od Bosne)
Subject: Re: Merry Christmas, Argic
Reply-To: faruk@bnr.ca
Organization: Bell Northern Research, Ottawa, Canada
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 92 22:46:12 GMT


In article <724624952@locust.cs.duke.edu>, wiener@duke.cs.duke.edu
(Edward Wiener) writes:
|> 
|> Argic buddy,

           [ text removed ]

>

I would like to extend my thanks to Serdar Argic in revealing us the truth 
about the events in Turkey during WW1. Before reading his articles I have 
suspected (altough never believed) that Turks massacred Armenians during 
a campaign of defending the very existance of their homeland. His thorough 
documentation showed that Armenians were in fact massacreing Turks in 
unprotected villages while Turkish Army was busy defending the country. 
However, for some people the truth seems to be very painful. As the case 
is, Serdar, this (desperation?) is their problem, not yours. Thanks again 
and keep up good work. May I extend very best wishes in upcoming year.

Faruk.
From: damir@infopls.chi.il.us (Damir Matanic)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.croatia
Subject: Gabelica
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 92 22:07:15 CST
Organization: INFOPLUS support, Wheeling, IL


  Ok, let me guess, NONE of you have heard that Gabelica has setup the 
"Cista Hrvatska Stanka Prava"?

Damir

--
damir@infopls.chi.il.us (Damir Matanic)
Infoplus BBS, +1 708 537 0247, v32bis. Home of Infoplus.
From: wickerhauser-victor@math.yale.edu (Victor Wickerhauser)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.croatia
Subject: Re: First rulers of Croatia (?)
Date: 18 Dec 1992 00:20:43 -0500
Organization: Yale University Mathematics Dept., New Haven, CT 06520-2155
NNTP-Posting-Host: math-gw.cs.yale.edu
Keywords: history

In article <Dec.17.22.31.14.1992.12409@central.rutgers.edu> barle@central.rutgers.edu (Stanko Barle) writes:
>
>Who was the first known ruler of Croatia or of a part
>of Croatia and (I would especially like to know this
>part) _when_ did that first known ruler(s) rule?

I open the bidding with this quote from "Politicka Povijest
Hrvatske" by Josip Horvat, August Cesarec, Zagreb (1990). 

   "Zamijenivsi u pocetku IX. st. vrhovnu vlast Bizanta vlascu Franaka,
   Primorska Hrvatske je za kneza Trpimira u sredini toga stoljeca
   postala vazan politicki cinilac na Jadranu, a u doba opadanja franacke
   moci stekla je, poslije ponovne privremene podloznosti Bizantu, g.
   879. za kneza Branimira potpunu nezavisnost."

[my pitiful attempt at translation:

   "With supreme authority changing from the Byzantines to the Franks at
   the beginning of the ninth century, Coastal Croatia became an import
   political prize on the Adriatic for King Trpimir in the middle of that
   century, and during the decline of Frankish might, after
   temporarily reverting to  Byzantine control,  it achieved complete
   independence under King Branimir in 879." 

Corrections are humbly solicited.  The "879" and the 'complete
independence" I am sure about.

Regards,
Victor
-- 
Prof. M. Victor Wickerhauser                      <victor@kirk.wustl.edu>
Department of Mathematics, Washington University, St. Louis, MO 63130 USA
Telephone:  USA(314)935-6771, USA(314)727-0749;     FAX: USA(314)727-4963
Sto se ljuckim trudom uzdignulo, Ljuckim znojem jopet se ponavlja. --Medo Pucic
Newsgroups: soc.culture.croatia,soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: wickerhauser-victor@math.yale.edu (Victor Wickerhauser)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.croatia
Subject: Re: Povijest Hrvata (History of the Croats)
Date: 13 Dec 1992 02:04:50 -0500
Organization: Yale University Mathematics Dept., New Haven, CT 06520-2155
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: golem.math.yale.edu


The final excerpt (for the time being) from "The Slavs in European
History and Civilization" by Francis Dvornik:


p.139: "The most important for Croatian juridical history is the Statute
of Vinodol, which was composed in the Croat language in 1288.  The
_\v{z}upa_ of Vinodol extended, in the thirteenth century, along the
Croat littoral from Novi (Novigrad) to Rijeka (Fiume), and its statute
had a great influence on Croatian legal history.  It contains
prescriptions of public law concerning the obligations of the citizens
toward the chief of the _\v{z}upa_ and toward the Church and is more
interested in penal than in civil law.  It contains, also, interesting
indications concerning the customary judicial procedure.



   "At this period one of the cities of the Adriatic littoral, Ragusa,
started to develop into a quasi-independent city-republic.  Ragusa
(Dubrovnik) was founded in the seventh century by Roman refugees from
Epidaurum, a Roman town destroyed by the invading Avars and Slavs.
the primitive inhabitants were Latins, but Slavic elements began to
penetrate into the city from the tenth century on.  In 1199 the chief
(_comes_) of Ragusa was a Slav--Dobroslav.  The city was under
Byzantine suzerainity until 1205, and from then until 1358 under
Venice, but from 1358 to 1526 its nominal suzerain was the king of
Hungary and Croatia.
   "Already during the twelfth century the city began concluding
commercial treaties with Italian cities.  its importance grew during
the thirteenth century, when several islands---Lokrum (Lacroma),
Kolo\v{c}ep (Calamota), Lopud (Dalafota), Lastovo (Lagosta), and Mljet
(Meleda)---were acquired by Ragusa.  Its territory was enlarged during
the fourteenth century thanks to Tsar Du\v{s}an and the Bosnian king
Stephen, who were favorably disposed toward this growing emporium on
the Adriatic.  The volume of Ragusa's commerce with the Balkan
countries was especially considerable in the fourteenth century; after
that period its citizens devoted themselves more to maritime commerce.
The term `argosy' derives from the name of the city, whose prosperous
status became a solid basis for the growth of Croatian civilization in
the following period."  [ends on p.140 -mvw]

-- 
Prof. M. Victor Wickerhauser                      <victor@kirk.wustl.edu>
Department of Mathematics, Washington University, St. Louis, MO 63130 USA
Telephone:  USA(314)935-6771, USA(314)727-0749;     FAX: USA(314)727-4963
Sto se ljuckim trudom uzdignulo, Ljuckim znojem jopet se ponavlja. --Medo Pucic
From: wickerhauser-victor@math.yale.edu (Victor Wickerhauser)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.croatia
Subject: Povijest Hrvata (History of the Croats)
Date: 13 Dec 1992 02:01:42 -0500
Organization: Yale University Mathematics Dept., New Haven, CT 06520-2155
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: golem.math.yale.edu

Here are still more excerpts from "The Slavs in European History and
Civilization" by Francis Dvornik, dealing with medieval Croatian legal
and political organization:

p.138: "Hungarian influences penetrated Croatia more and more.  This was
particularly visible in Slavonia, nearest to Hungary proper.  For
example, although the tribal _\v{z}upa_ in Croatia proper remained
intact until the fourteenth century, the tribal _\v{z}upas_ in
Slavonioa were soon united into larger units on the Hungarian pattern.
Also, Hungarian aristocratic families soon began to appear in
Slavonia, and a new aristocracy of functionaries was introduced by
Charles Robert.  Croatia proper, however, was able to preserve its own
national aristocracy.   Other Hungarian customs were penetrating
Slavonia, sometimes even reaching Croatia and Dalmatia.  New towns and
villages were founded according to German law, as was done in Hungary
proper.  Little by little a Magyarization of Croatian society and
Croatian customs was giving Slavonia an increasingly Hungarian
character.  This assimilation developed further in the fifteenth
century when, from 1442 on, the diets of Slavonia started to send
their deputies (_nuntii, oratores regni Slavoniae_) to the Hungarian
diets.
   "The territory of the second part of the realm, Croatia and
Dalmatia, continued to show a more independent spirit.  One of the
reasons for this was that this region was able to develop its own
judicial statutes not only on the basis of custom law, but also on the
basis of Romano-Byzantine law.  The latter had been preserved in the
towns of the littoral and on the Adriatic islands which had formed
part of the Byzantine empire and whose possession had always been
coveted by the national Croatian kings.  Slavic elements soon
penetrated the islands and the cities, and the intimate relations
between these remnants of the Romano-Byzantine Empire and Croatia
proper influenced the development of Croatian public and private law."

-- 
Prof. M. Victor Wickerhauser                      <victor@kirk.wustl.edu>
Department of Mathematics, Washington University, St. Louis, MO 63130 USA
Telephone:  USA(314)935-6771, USA(314)727-0749;     FAX: USA(314)727-4963
Sto se ljuckim trudom uzdignulo, Ljuckim znojem jopet se ponavlja. --Medo Pucic
Newsgroups: soc.culture.croatia
From: dmatic@athena.mit.edu (Davor Matic)
Subject: "newsgroup" in Croatian
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 04:23:05 GMT


>>Na zalost, moram reci da je prvih 50 poruka u newsgroup (usput,
>>kako to preveli u hrvatski?) prilicno razocaranje.
>

Here is my two cents worth, in the spirit of contemporary Croatian:

	- vijestoskup
	- skupovijest
	- grupovijest
	- grupoglas 
	- skupoglas
	- skupovjes~c'e
	- grupovjes~c'e

Pick your favorite!
:-)
Cheers!
Davor
Newsgroups: soc.culture.croatia,soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna,soc.culture.turkish,soc.culture.greek,talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.europe