From: ltran@lsil.com (Linh T. Tran 4900)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.vietnamese
Subject: Re: [POL] Re: VI: Cambodian Impasse can be solved
Date: 21 Nov 92 02:15:34 GMT
Reply-To: ltran@lsil.com
Organization: LSI Logic Corporation
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5

Giao Tien Vu (giao@informix.com) wrote:
: In article <1992Nov13.065616.26974@lsil.com> ltran@lsil.com writes:
: >
: >	What happen if Chinese came down and settle in Vietnam by the
: >	millions per year? I exagerate the point, but can you invoke
: >	the "humanitarian" side again? Will we react the same way Cambodians
: >	react toward Vietnam? Don't do what you don't like other do to
: >	you.
: 
: The Chinese did move to Vietnam in large numbers.  Remember the years
: before the 10th century.  An interesting fact was that many Vietnamese

	There are disputes about whether the Chinese came down to Giao Cha^u
	or Giao Chi? Qua^.n in large number . It was thought that precisely
	because Chinese didn't go that far south so that Vietnam still speak
	Vietnamese, instead of being assimilated into Chinese as others 
	"chi" of the Ba'ch Vie^.t family. Remember that the Vietnamese'
	ancestors territory comprised part of modern China .

	The recorded colonization of part of Vietnam by Chinese happened to 
	be in parts that were in Viet's territory, but now is Chinese territory.

	And do you think we had much of a choice when we were defeated? It
	would be the same for Cambodian if their were not a so called
	"roadmap" and the collapse of USSR.


: rebel leaders were Chinese descendants (Mai Ha('c DDe^', Khu'c Thu+`a
: Du., Ngo^ Quye^`n). 

	It is new to me about Mai Ha('c DDe^', Ngo^ Quye^`n . Can you show
	some pointer toward that? I would like to know more. This is what I 
	found in mainstream history books:

	Mai Ha('c DDe^', real name is Mai Thu'c Loan, ngu+o+`i Hoan Cha^u,
	thuo^.c huye^.n Thie^n Lo^.c (hay Cao Lo^.c, Ha` Ti~nh) . He built
	up resistance against the DDu+o+`ng Dynasty in 722, in Nam DDa`n,
	Nghe^. An . 

	Khu'c Thu+`a Du., is from Giao Cha^u, que^ o+? Ho^`ng Cha^u, thuo^.c
	Ninh Giang, Ha?i Du+o+ng). In 906, he had a lot of supports from
	the local people, and while the DDu+o+`ng Dynasty was on the decline,
	took over the administration of the Chinese. He was immediately 
	named Tie^'t DDo^. Su+' to replace Ta(ng Co^?n, a Chinese.

	Ngo^ Quye^`n, que^ o+? DDu+o+`ng La^m ti?nh So+n Ta^y (just outside Ha`
	No^.i). In 931, he pushed the invading Chinese (Nam Ha'n) out of
	Giao Cha^u with the first great naval battle on Ba.ch DDa(`ng Giang .

	What those three had in common? They all lead Vietnamese fight the
	Chinese. 

	
: Only in rare circumstances, Vietnamese did overreact
: and persecute Chinese.  Most of the times, Chinese and Vietnamese lived
: peacefully together (the Chinese played important role in building the
: economy of the South throughout the 16th-20th century period).

	It is true that Vietnamese didn't overreact in the sense that there was
	no big wave of settlement by Chinese in Giao Cha^u! 

	In 16th century, Deep South of Vietnam was not considered Vietnamese
	territory, and it was so thinly populated so that Chinese, fleeing
	from China because of Manchurian invasion, came to Vietnam as refugees.

	What I am trying to say is, in proportion, we never had the burden of
	an equivalent of 20% of the population newly settle in Vietnam by
	Chinese. The Cambodian face that proportion. And they do have legitimate
	reason to ask us to leave peacefully.

	One point for sure: no Vietnamese would wellcome Chinese settlement
	by the millions.

: 
: >
: >	I think that it is wrong to colonize Cambodia.  We cannot affort
: >	it, both in historical sense and economical sense. The problem
: >	created by a Vietnamese population in Cambodia has some direct
: >	cause-effect relationship with the fact that Vietnam's army 
: >	occupied Cambodia for 10 years. And for years that Vietnam annouced
: >	they pulled out of Cambodia, although they only did so in 1990.
: >
: >	And there is no need to colonize another country in order to be
: >	a strong nation. That was in the past. Japan understood the lesson.
: 
: The key question is: are the Vietnamese who currently live in Cambodia
: the colonists of that country?  What power do they have?  Are they running
: the government now?  Do they even have a voice in the government?
: 
: If it was 1989, I could agree with your point.  But this is 1992, there is
: no Vietnamese army in Cambodia.  The Vietnamese living in Cambodia is
: virtually defenseless.  The eight gruesome killings in the last few months
: are ample evident that the Vietnamese are no colonists (do you think that
: if they were real Vietnamese soldiers, they would not bring out their
: weapons and killed the perpetrators before those guys had a chance?).  Why
: perpetuate this kind of false image that the Vietnamese living in Cambodia
: are trying to occupy that country?  Yes, there are Vietnamese who are
: living illegally in Cambodia.  Those people should be persuaded to go
: back by legal means.  I don't have any problem with that.  But please,
: don't make these Vietnamese the victims of yet another ideological battle.
: The backlash of stirring some Cambodians' hatred for Vietnamese would
: result in a vicious cycle that would benefit neither people, neither
: country.

	I never made that point. I condemn the killing by khmer-rouge. I re-
	confirm what I said earlier, as appeared below. 

: 
: >
: >	On the otherhand, I agree with you that the violences urged by the
: >	Khmer Rouge regarding the Vietnamese there, are out of place. 
: >
: >	By the way, probably not all of us will go back to Vietnam after
: >	it will be free, but many of us will. 
: 
: Let's wait and see.  Don't say that too early.  For example, there is a
: free, prosperous and democratic Israel, but why many Jews in the USA don't
: want to move back there?

	Jews DID get back to Israel. I never said we ALL will come back to 
	Vietnam, and certainly didn't say only the GOOD/BAD went home. I 
	just say: "There will be much more than some might think". OF course,
	we just wait and see. Do I have other choice, or you don't give me
	any choice? :-)


: 
: Giao
: 
--
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Linh Tran
ltran@lsil.com
of course, it is only my opinion.
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