From: btiffany@pbs.org
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Missionizing to 2-year-olds
Date: 12 Aug 92 12:02:48 EDT
Organization: PBS:Public Broadcasting Service, Alexandria, VA

RS = Rob Strom
BT = Bruce Tiffany
BB = Bruce Benning

RS>My son, who was having trouble swimming,
RS>was told that he was sinking in the water because
RS>he didn't believe.

BT>I'm sorry, but this is simply more than I can believe.  It is just not
BT>believable.  Maybe you believe it, since you're so paranoid about the whole
BT>situation, but I don't believe anybody said such a thing.

BB>  Perhaps it is because I live in Cleveland <grin>, or perhaps it is
BB>  because of the road my Lord has me traveling. Whatever the reason is
BB>  I must yield to what Rom Strom has sited as true, though uncommon.

Sorry, BB, I still don't buy it.

I can imagine what *may* have happened.  Rob's son was indeed in danger of
sinking, and his relatives later used that fresh experience as an example
of the condition all men are in: sinking in sin as it were, in need of
rescue.  I can believe his relatives used his son's experience as an analogy
to illustrate their point.  I can also believe that in the young boy's mind
he got confused and thought they actually meant he was sinking in the water
because he didn't believe.  But I absolutely cannot believe that that is what
his relatives actually told the boy, or meant.  That is beyond belief.  Rob's
description of the incident makes me imagine them standing there letting
him sink and gulp water while they refuse to help unless he "believes".
I know similar atrocities have been committed against Jews throughout
history by an institutionalized church claiming to represent the Lord, but
Rob is asking me to believe that real Christians who are his *relatives* did
this to their own nephew!

Perhaps to this day the boy thinks they said that, and of course Rob believes
him.  It would be interesting to ask his relatives what they recall of this
incident, if anything.

At some point we cross the line from objectivity to mudslinging, and I think
we're just about there, which is what another poster was pointing out (I think
it was either Bill Carlson or Harvey Smith).  Some people have indeed done
bad things in order to convey a true message, and they are not justified in
doing so; but neither is this tack Rob is tacking justified.  He is trying
to make all MJ's, if not all Christians, out to be like his relatives were
at that time, and beyond that I don't think he's giving us an accurate
portrayal of what they really were like.  We are only hearing one side of
the story here.  I don't think he'd like to be talked about in public the
way he is talking about his relatives.  I've lived long anough to know that
hearing the *other* side of a story generally makes a *big* difference.
(Having 5 kids tends to teach a person that, too!)

BB>  I have encountered some VERY_WELL_MEANING brothers and sisters who
BB>  in their zeal have done some rather questionable activity. What Rob
BB>  reports I can believe. Though we are new creations in Messiah Yeshua,
BB>  we are not perfect. We still do make mistakes.

I, too, have seen some real zaniness, but nothing like telling a kid he's
sinking in the water because he doesn't believe.  No way.  I do not believe
it happened.

I am *not* trying to justify whatever wrong Rob's relatives may have done.
I'm sure there is a certain amount of truth in what Rob is telling us, and
I personally deplore such behavior.  It gives us all a bad name, and does
not reflect the true nature of Messiah Yeshua.

I was going to cite a couple of examples of such misguided "witnessing"
attempts I've seen myself, but I think I'll just let it go at that.

BB>  Let us please move on from this thread.

Well, I'm for that!

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

     /\			And the witness is this, that God has given us eternal
____/__\____		life, and this life is in His Son.  He who has the Son
\  / || \  /		has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does
 \/--++--\/		not have the life.
 /\  ||  /\						-- 1 John 5:11-12
/  \ || /  \
----\--/----		-- Bruce Tiffany
     \/