From: eyc@acpub.duke.edu (EMIL CHUCK)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc
Subject: Abortion story Re: DATELINE: Bush fucks up!
Date: 20 Aug 92 13:35:20 GMT
Organization: Duke University; Durham, N.C.

tlynch@cco.caltech.edu
you write:
:eyc@acpub.duke.edu (EMIL CHUCK) writes:
:>chrisl@stpaul.gov (Chris A Lyman) writes:
:
:>!Amen and preach it sister!  Some time ago in talk.abortion, I read a 
:>!harrowing narrative by a woman who had given herself an abortion with
:>!a sterilized knitting needle.  She described the pain as 'excruciating,'
:>!and said that she bled for days.  Her reason?  Her father had stated that 
:>!he would kill any daughter of his who became pregnant before marriage
:>!and she had every reason to believe him.  I wish I'd saved the article;
:>!it's very worthwhile reading.
:>!
:>!I wish even more that, before they glibly spout their fetus worship, pro-
:>!forced-birthers would take the time to reflect on what circumstances would
:>!cause a woman to risk her life in order not to be pregnant.
:
:>I assume that the pregnancy was the result of consentual sex. Otherwise
:>I don't think she should have had that much to fear from her father.
:
:First, I suggest you read the piece; Adrienne Regard has reposted it, and it
:makes for *very* compelling reading.  (Worrying and depressing, as well.)

	Adrienne's article wound up following Chris' post on my
newsserver. I have it now saved on my machine here. I agree it is very
compelling and very disheartening.

:Second, I think one of the whole points of this story is:  SO WHAT if it
:was the result of consensual sex?  Regardless of how it came about, this
:pregnancy was simply *not* something she was prepared to deal with at that
:point in time, PERIOD.  
	I can't disagree with you there that she wasn't prepared to deal
with the pregnancy, but my point about consentual sex is that was she
willing and knowledgable about the possible consequences of her having
sex? It's not right to treat someone like a little kid one day then an
adult the next. If anyone consents to engaging in sexual intercourse, then
I assume he or she is a responsible adult who understands the risks and
the consequences. It's not right to wash our hands of the problem of
teenage sexual activity and promiscuity (since kids are going to do it
anyway) and then all of a sudden be shocked when "they're not ready! Get
thee to a clinic!"

>It happens.  It sucks.  But it is not impossible.  And it is a very real 
>reason why any attempt to ban abortion would cause infinitely more problems
>than it attempted to solve.
	Unplanned teenage pregnancy -- with or without considering
abortion -- draws up problems ranging from the teenager's health to the
financial resources whether to have the child or get an abortion to
social standing among peers and the community. The problem is that
having an abortion will not make these problems go away; banning
abortions, I admit, won't make these problems go away. But every
decision has some consequence and every right a responsibility.

>I ask you, Emil, and any other pro-lifers willing to give me an answer:
>Read Stella's story.  Think about it.  And think about whether that is the
>situation you'd like to go back to.  When some young girls, through no 
>fault of their own, are stuck between the options of nearly killing themselves
>or of *being* killed solely for being pregnant.
	There are other options including taking refuge with more sympathetic
family members or friends and communicating to her father (ref. the
story) through them. There are now rape crisis centers where she could
possibly go (I don't know what there was back then). If she is abused,
she can go to a doctor.
	But if this situation happens in real life, which I am sure it
does, you have to ask why the father thinks that way and what can be
done to let him know she needs his love and support, not his threats.

:>On the other hand if her father were really that serious about killing
:>his daughter over premarital pregnancy, then I am very grieved over the
:>situation. His statement certainly is not indicative of a very healthy
:>family relationship. 
:
:Exceedingly true.
:
:If he cannot accept that sometimes threatening to
:>kill someone doesn't help, then the father truly does not understand
:>how to encourage trust and love in the family. Besides, if he did kill
:her, he'd be charged with TWO counts of murder. 
:
:Actually, he wouldn't, so far as I know.  The legalities simply don't work that
:way.
:
:>	I submit though that this stance is not taken by all fathers to
:>their daughters. 
:
:Of course it's not.  But I fail to see what that has to do with anything.  
:Some pro-life rhetoric talks about how "even one abortion is one too many"
:because one "unborn child" is killed.  Well, here's where you get to see
:how it feels; even one of these situations is one too many.
	My point was that using an argument that abortion must be
protected by the Constitution because some daughters are afraid of their
ranting fathers is being used (at least it seems that way to me). I
don't always agree with the staunchest pro-lifers on their rhetoric at
times, as I'm sure they wouldn't agree with me.

:>This story is very tough to swallow, as I'm sure there
:>are equally emotional stories that the pro-lifers ("forced-birthers")
:>can write up and submit to the net. 
:
:Yes, I'm sure there are.  However, there's an important difference:  the pro-
:choice stance is not suggesting that anybody who does not wish an abortion
:should get one.  Thus, while a sob story for the pro-life cause could un-
:doubtedly be tragic, I don't see how the pro-choice community could somehow
:be *responsible* for it.
:
:>No side wins in the above story: she
:>did not need to have performed a self-induced abortion, 
:
:Read the piece.  It was that, run away from home and live on the streets,
:or DIE.  You want to back up that statement?
:
:>and if she had a
:>legal abortion, I doubt this action could have helped her relationship
:>with her father. Making abortion available to this woman I doubt helped
:>her family be more closer and more trusting.
:
:Assuming you mean "would help her family...", since legal and safe abortion
:was NOT available, no, it probably wouldn't help her relationship with her
:father.  I don't recall anyone claiming it would.  But it *would* give her
:a safe and legal way out of the mess she found herself in, rather than
:running a very real risk of death from a self-induced abortion.
:
:Read the piece.  Then come back and answer this; I'll be interested to see
:if there's any change.
	The point is that the lessons learned from this experience is
only learned by the woman in the story. Her dad, how I read the story,
the decisive factor in her decision, remained unchanged. If she by
chance got pregnant again, the cycle would start over. The love and
support she wanted was not there, and the problem still remained. This
problem can only be solved -- albeit slowly -- by communication.
	That's one reason why I understood Dan Quayle and George Bush's
answers on the abortion question (that was the original subject line
after all). Loving fathers do not want to drive their family away from
them. The teenager shouldn't have to burden by herself the baby or the
privation of love between her and her family.
	I don't want to force these two people together to talk about
her pregnancy (at least with no sharp objects), but for the sake of
their love and her health I would hope they do/did.
-- 
Emil Thomas Chuck		DUKE BLUE DEVILS: 1992 ACC CHAMPIONS!
Biomedical Engineer 1993	1992 EAST REGIONAL CHAMPIONS!!
Duke University, Durham, NC	AND 1992 NCAA NATIONAL CHAMPIONS!!!
August 31, 1992 - May 16, 1993	Duke football? What's that?