HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: rlk@VisiCom.COM (Bob Kitzberger)
Newsgroups: news.software.nn
Subject: Re: Why is NN so common?
Keywords: poor design
Date: 6 Nov 92 22:04:10 GMT

green@ie.utoronto.ca (Marc Green) writes:

>'ve recent switched to a machine that uses nn and am stunned at what poorly
>designed piece of software it is. It violates just about every human factors
>principle in software design (consistency, dialog closure, smooth  error
>handling, etc). And of course, the documentation is a joke.

It provides something that nearly all of the other newsreaders don't provide:
visual sorting and selection of articles on a per-subject basis.

Also, for people that like to snag things from comp.binaries.*, there
is a great unshar utility built-in.

These two features, for me, are important enough to get me to consistently
use nn, despite the bizarre commands (actually, no more bizarre than
vi or other Unix-isms).

	.Bob.
----------------
Bob Kitzberger          VisiCom Laboratories, Inc.
rlk@visicom.com         10052 Mesa Ridge Court, San Diego CA 92121 USA
                        +1 619 457 2111    FAX +1 619 457 0888
From: jcb@hood (Jim Becker)
Newsgroups: news.software.nn
Subject: nn "auto add to kill file" addition -- who wants it?
Date: 11 Nov 92 18:06:12 GMT
Reply-To: jcb@bachelor
Return-Path: <jcb@hood>
To: postnews@lupine



I added the ability to auto-enter subjects in the kill file  based  on
either selected subject or entire current display.

The  changes  bind  the  "I"  key, and the "H" key, to these features.
Perhaps a hundred lines, but i made it to 6.4  Patch  level  13  code.
(don't have current code).

Anyone  want  to  integrate  these  changes into the main release, and
provide a patch file? Email me. Thanks.

-jim
--

 -Jim Becker / jcb@pcx.ncd.com / Network Computing Devices, Inc. (NCD)

Newsgroups: news.software.nn
From: popaul@cs.mcgill.ca (Paul Terray)
Subject: Re: Why is NN so common?
Keywords: poor design
Organization: SOCS - McGill University, Montreal, Canada
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 00:02:28 GMT

I'm sorry that you don't like nn because it is a wonderful piece of
software. You find the interface poor, then remember the advantage of
nn:
-first, it's free, everybody told you that but It's worth saying it
again...

-then, nn work on any terminal. And for a program that work on any
terminal, nn has IMHO one of the best interface of all the program on
UNIX for free (with elm, let's say). I usually use trn because nn is not
on my new system, and I was so missing nn that I even try to compile it.
The problem was that constructing databases with my 5Mo quota was simply
impossible :-).

-at last, I can say that at the beggining I found nn pretty simple to
use, and when I decided to go further in reading news a more intelligent
way, the power-user functions were the strongest I ever seen, and I
could use all of them using the manual (:man command). 

- Now I use NewsGrazer on NeXT, when I can, and I love this program except 
that it has no powerful configuration function. If one day nn exist with a 
GUI under NeXTstep or Xwindow, PLEASE call me.


Oh, BTW,
Newsgroups: news.software.nn
Subject: Re: Why is NN so common?
From: a_rubin@dsg4.dse.beckman.com (Arthur Rubin)
Date: 6 Nov 92 18:55:30 GMT
Organization: Beckman Instruments, Inc.
Keywords: poor design

In <BxAuIy.4qJ@ie.utoronto.ca> green@ie.utoronto.ca (Marc Green) writes:

>'ve recent switched to a machine that uses nn and am stunned at what poorly
>designed piece of software it is. It violates just about every human factors
>principle in software design (consistency, dialog closure, smooth  error
>handling, etc). And of course, the documentation is a joke.

>The only good thing about it is that it serves as a source of wonderful
>examples for my software engineering course on how not to design systems.

>Why is this damned thing so common?

Because it's fast?  Because it's better than rn :-)?  I CAN say that its
man page(?) is better than that of rn.
 
--
Arthur L. Rubin: a_rubin@dsg4.dse.beckman.com (work) Beckman Instruments/Brea
216-5888@mcimail.com 70707.453@compuserve.com arthur@pnet01.cts.com (personal)
My opinions are my own, and do not represent those of my employer.
My interaction with our news system is unstable; please mail anything important.
From: admerlev@sundae.triumf.ca ( Arnd Merlevede )
Newsgroups: news.software.nn
Subject: Re: Why is NN so common?
Date: 7 Nov 1992 00:50:45 GMT
Organization: The University of British Columbia
Reply-To: admerlev@cipy.e-technik.uni-erlangen.de
NNTP-Posting-Host: sundae.triumf.ca
Keywords: poor design

a_rubin@dsg4.dse.beckman.com (Arthur Rubin) writes:

>In <BxAuIy.4qJ@ie.utoronto.ca> green@ie.utoronto.ca (Marc Green) writes:

>>'ve recent switched to a machine that uses nn and am stunned at what poorly
>>designed piece of software it is. It violates just about every human factors
>>principle in software design (consistency, dialog closure, smooth  error
>>handling, etc). And of course, the documentation is a joke.

>>The only good thing about it is that it serves as a source of wonderful
>>examples for my software engineering course on how not to design systems.

>>Why is this damned thing so common?
Make a better one ! and stop complaining. Constructive criticizm
welcomed.
Arnd


>Because it's fast?  Because it's better than rn :-)?  I CAN say that its
>man page(?) is better than that of rn.
> 
>--
>Arthur L. Rubin: a_rubin@dsg4.dse.beckman.com (work) Beckman Instruments/Brea
>216-5888@mcimail.com 70707.453@compuserve.com arthur@pnet01.cts.com (personal)
>My opinions are my own, and do not represent those of my employer.
>My interaction with our news system is unstable; please mail anything important.
--
Any replies appreciated to : Arnd.Merlevede@cipy.e-technik.uni-erlangen.de
I hate to tell you, but you're only being simulated on the new cray !
(sdb: Would you like to save a backup of YOUR coredump ?)
Newsgroups: news.software.nn
Subject: nnmaster: When should I reinitialize the database?
From: russells@ccu1.aukuni.ac.nz (Russell Street)
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 21:14:10 GMT
Organization: University of Auckland, New Zealand.

Hi

We are using nn as an NNTP client on a machine with not much disk
space.  To cut down the amount of space consumed we are only
subscribing to a small portion of the total news feed (about 200 
groups of the 2000 in the GROUPS file)

The news system still consumes a lot of disk space :( but I have
noticed that when I reinitialize it (using nnmaster -I) it does not
come back to the same level as it was before.

So my questions are:
	Should I perodically reinit the database?
	If I do what affect will this have on the .newsrc file etc?
	How often should I reinit it?
	How do I convience nnmaster -I to work without user input?
	
	If it is not a good idea to reinit it what steps could I take
	to stop the database growing so much?

The news reading people do read a lot of news in these groups.

Thanks for any help...
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Russell Street (russells@ccu1.aukuni.ac.nz)
	Listeners are requested to make the necessary adjustments
From: jbayer@ispi.COM (Jonathan Bayer)
Newsgroups: news.software.nn
Subject: Re: How to subscribe previously unsubscribed groups ?
Date: 4 Nov 92 18:34:39 GMT
Organization: Intelligent Software Products, Inc.

eilts@late59.e-technik.uni-erlangen.de (Hinrich Eilts) writes:

>I have by the U-command unsubscribed groups, marked by a "!" in .newsrc,
>and now, I want to subscribe one back. But up to now I can't find a way
>to do besides editing .newsrc directly. Is there an elegant solution ?


Yes.  Go the the desired group(s), then type U.  Since you are already
unsubscribed you will be asked if you wish to re-subscribe to that
group.


JB
-- 
Jonathan Bayer		Intelligent Software Products, Inc.
(908) 248-1853		37 Winthrop Rd. 
jbayer@ispi.COM		Edison, NJ   08817
Newsgroups: news.software.nn
From: daniel@nstn.ns.ca (Daniel MacKay)
Subject: Size of nn
Organization: NSTN Network Operations Centre, Nova Scotia, Canada
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 13:49:16 GMT

Hello!

I need to get a feeling for what a normal size for the nn directory is.
Mine's in /var/spool/nn, and is about 33M with 4200-odd files, for a
/var/spool/news of about 233,000 articles.  Only a few of the files in the
nn directory are older than 30 days (my expire is 7 days for alt, 14 days
for 'most everything else.)

Does this sound about right, or have I forgotten to activate one of the
four million expire options?  The nn has been up for a couple of years; the
database was rebuilt about a ago.  It gets validated every morning.

Any tips would be appreciated.  ADthanksVANCE!
--
	Daniel MacKay				daniel@nstn.ns.ca
	NOC Manager, NSTN Operations Centre	902-494-NSTN
	Dalhousie University, Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
Newsgroups: news.software.nn
Subject: Re: FAQ? Why can't I cancel my article?
From: a_rubin@dsg4.dse.beckman.com (Arthur Rubin)
Date: 5 Nov 92 16:13:15 GMT
Organization: Beckman Instruments, Inc.

In <1992Nov3.205344.6666@rei.com> fox@rei.com (Fuzzy Fox) writes:

>This is probably a FAQ.  If so, ignore me until the FAQ gets reposted.

>I recently posted an article by mistake.  When the article showed up in
>NN a few minutes later, I went to cancel it with the "C" command, but I
>was informed that I could only cancel my own articles.  What is
>misconfigured, such that NN would not know my article is mine?

If you were to post a copy of the header of the article, we would have a
better idea why NN doesn't recognize it as yours.  In my case, I have to
cancel from the same workstation as I post for nn to recognize it.  There
may be other gateway situations in which the cancel would have a different
machine ID than the original article.

A question for nn gurus -- what is the logic in the cancel command
determining whether you are trying to cancel on your own articles.  What
DOES it check?
--
Arthur L. Rubin: a_rubin@dsg4.dse.beckman.com (work) Beckman Instruments/Brea
216-5888@mcimail.com 70707.453@compuserve.com arthur@pnet01.cts.com (personal)
My opinions are my own, and do not represent those of my employer.
My interaction with our news system is unstable; please mail anything important.
From: tal@Warren.MENTORG.COM (Tom Limoncelli)
Newsgroups: news.software.nn
Subject: Re: Why is NN so common?
Date: 6 Nov 1992 17:09:20 -0500
Organization: Mentor Graphics -- IC Group
NNTP-Posting-Host: milk.warren.mentorg.com
Summary: ha ha, only serious!
Keywords: poor design

In <BxAuIy.4qJ@ie.utoronto.ca> green@ie.utoronto.ca (Marc Green) writes:
 
>'ve recent switched to a machine that uses nn and am stunned at what poorly
>designed piece of software it is. It violates just about every human factors
>principle in software design (consistency, dialog closure, smooth  error
>handling, etc). And of course, the documentation is a joke.
 
>The only good thing about it is that it serves as a source of wonderful
>examples for my software engineering course on how not to design systems.
 
>Why is this damned thing so common?
 
I'd guess it's such a common news reader because it is consistent, has
dialog closure, smooth error handling, and on-line documentation.
 
Tom
P.S.  It sounds like you just finished week 5 of U. Toronto's course
on human factors in software.  Go back to your textbooks.
-- 
Tom Limoncelli -- tal@warren.mentorg.com (work) -- tal@plts.uucp (play)
   X.400 is the mail system of the future.  Let's keep it that way!
From: brodie@mis.mcw.edu
Newsgroups: news.software.nn
Subject: <None>
Date: 5 Nov 92 23:25:46 CDT
Organization: Medical College of Wisconsin

Before I install nn, is there special needs when using nn on a system
running INN (and INN's NNTP) ??    Specifically, I don't want the install
process to use it's own verion of nntp and inews....

-----
Kent C. Brodie					Internet:  brodie@mis.mcw.edu
Sr. Systems & Network Manager			UUCPnet:   mcwmis!brodie
Information Technology Systems dept.		MaBellnet: +1 (414) 257-8769
Medical College of Wisconsin

"The Fat Lady SANG!" -- seen on a sweatshirt that Bill Clinton received
                        shortly after winning the election.
Newsgroups: news.software.nn
From: Chaw@cs.Stanford.edu (Sudarshan S. Chawathe)  
Subject: Re: Why is NN so common?
Originator: chaw@Xenon.Stanford.EDU
X-Disclaimer: Blame it on the cat.
Keywords: poor design
Reply-To: Chaw@cs.Stanford.edu (Sudarshan S. Chawathe)  
Fcc: log/outgoing
Organization: CS Department, Stanford University, California, USA
Date:  8 Nov 92 02:13:34 GMT

green@ie.utoronto.ca (Marc Green) writes:

[_exteremely_ amusing generalizations!!]

>The only good thing about it is that it serves as a source of wonderful
>examples for my software engineering course on how not to design systems.

I'm sure happy Kim didn't take your course!   If you were a good
engineer, you would first state your assumptions before making
such generalizations! 

I have been coaxing friends to try nn out (most use rn), and
everyone who switched has been _very_ happy.  A friend found that
he could now read more newsgroups becuase of the speed of nn and
the easy-to-use kill features.

>Why is this damned thing so common?

Because some people have a clue?

-Chaw

_________________________________________________________________
Chaw@cs.Stanford.edu                                 tat tvam asi

Newsgroups: news.software.nn
From: stefans@bauv106.bauv.unibw-muenchen.de (Stefan Schwarz)
Subject: nn problems within xterm
Organization: Universitaet der Bundeswehr Muenchen (Germany)
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 09:17:13 GMT

i have some trouble when running nn within xterm.
My xterm is a large (75 line) xterm and auto-preview is set on. So i have
enough room to see the whole page of subjects (a-z,0-9) and the
selected article. However, there are some strange effects:
(1) After printing an article, the screen gets erased an never refreshed.
    So i have to switch to another page and switch back to again see my subjects.
(2) Some times, after reading an article on the last but one page and
    switching to the last page nn dumps core while displaying the subjects.

Did somebody encounter similar behaviour or better, are there some
solutions to this problems?

Stefan
-- 
__
Stefan Schwarz                            University of the armed forces
Laboratory for graphical data processing  W-8014 Neubiberg, FRG
--
From: wb8foz@skybridge.SCL.CWRU.Edu (David Lesher)
Newsgroups: news.software.nn
Subject: Re: FAQ? Why can't I cancel my article?
Date: 7 Nov 1992 14:51:38 GMT
Organization: NRK Clinic for habitual NetNews abusers - Beltway Annex
Reply-To: wb8foz@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu (David Lesher)
NNTP-Posting-Host: skybridge.scl.cwru.edu

Others said
# >If you were to post a copy of the header of the article, we would have a
# >better idea why NN doesn't recognize it as yours.
# 
# I don't have a copy of the article, since I forged a cancel message in
# order to get it cancelled.  


Make a post in misc.test, read & save it, then cancel, or
attempt to.

Post the whole result.

ps: make it a local misc.test post......
--
A host is a host from coast to coast..wb8foz@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu
& no one will talk to a host that's close..........................
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433
From: thurlow@convex.com (Robert Thurlow)
Newsgroups: news.software.nn
Subject: Re: Why is NN so common?
Keywords: poor design
Date: 7 Nov 92 18:25:08 GMT
Organization: Engineering, CONVEX Computer Corp., Richardson, Tx., USA
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

In <BxAuIy.4qJ@ie.utoronto.ca> green@ie.utoronto.ca (Marc Green) writes:

>'ve recent switched to a machine that uses nn and am stunned at what poorly
>designed piece of software it is. It violates just about every human factors
>principle in software design (consistency, dialog closure, smooth  error
>handling, etc). And of course, the documentation is a joke.

>Why is this damned thing so common?

Because it allows people like me to plow through the news faster than
ay other alternative, reading only what I reach for rather than anything
left after I go to the work of throwing it away.  There are things that
suck, but trn sucks harder.

Please feel free to write another front end, or even another complete
newsreader, or to detail what is so catastrophically broken about 'nn',
or to just quietly go find another newsreader.  I'd react a little
better if you gave any facts to back up your criticisms.

Rob T
--
Rob Thurlow, thurlow@convex.com
"I get so tickled debunking bad personal philosophy." - Milquetoast
Newsgroups: news.software.nn
From: fox@rei.com (Fuzzy Fox)
Subject: Re: FAQ? Why can't I cancel my article?
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 19:14:32 GMT
Organization: Recognition Equipment, Inc.

a_rubin@dsg4.dse.beckman.com (Arthur Rubin) writes:

>If you were to post a copy of the header of the article, we would have a
>better idea why NN doesn't recognize it as yours.

I don't have a copy of the article, since I forged a cancel message in
order to get it cancelled.  This is something I shouldn't have to do in
order to cancel my own article.

At any rate, this machine is the ONLY news machine in our company, and
it all runs locally to this machine:  No NNTP serving or multiple logins
on different machines or anything.  Therefore, the article that I
posted before will have a header almost identical in composition to
this article.  I'm sure that if I tried, I would not be able to cancel
this article, either.

Any ideas?

-- 
#ifdef TRUE        | Fuzzy Fox (a.k.a. David DeSimone)       fuzzy@netcom.com
#define  TRUE   0  |
#define  FALSE  1  |     "History doesn't repeat itself, but it rhymes."
#endif             |                                   -- Mark Twain
From: acbhour@accucx.cc.ruu.nl (Rudi van Houten)
Newsgroups: news.software.nn
Subject: Re: DOS based news reader?
Date: 12 Nov 92 21:33:07 GMT
Distribution: news
Organization: Academic Computer Centre Utrecht

In <1992Nov11.150231.347@dsr.uucp> davew@dsr.uucp (Dave Whipple) writes:

>Hi all.  I am looking for a DOS based news reader.  nn would be nice
>but any reader would do. Could anybody tell me where I could get one.
>I am thinking of getting an ip feed using KA9Q.  Thanks.

>Dave Whipple
>davew@dsr.UUCP 

A newsreader running on DOS is Trumpet. I don't have documented where to
find it (at least not where I am now), but you could always ask Archie.
-- 
Rudi van Houten	<rudi@cc.ruu.nl>
Academisch Computer Centrum Utrecht / Besturings Systemen
Budapestlaan 8  -  3584 CD  -  Utrecht  -  Netherlands
:-) Experience is the harvest of many mistakes.
From: wohler@sapwdf.UUCP (Bill Wohler)
Newsgroups: news.software.nn
Subject: Re: nnmaster: When should I reinitialize the database?
Date: 9 Nov 92 13:14:13 GMT
Reply-To: Bill Wohler <wohler@sap-ag.de>
Organization: SAP AG, Walldorf, Germany

russells@ccu1.aukuni.ac.nz (Russell Street) writes:
>	Should I perodically reinit the database?

russell,

  yes.  i run "nnadmin =IY" once a week.


Bill Wohler <wohler@sap-ag.de> <sapwdf!wohler>
Heidelberg Red Barons Ultimate Frisbee Team
Newsgroups: news.software.nn
From: jstewart@alfred.carleton.ca (John Stewart)
Subject: Re: Why is NN so common?
Keywords: poor design
Organization: Carleton University
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1992 03:16:49 GMT

In <BxAuIy.4qJ@ie.utoronto.ca> green@ie.utoronto.ca (Marc Green) writes:

>'ve recent switched to a machine that uses nn and am stunned at what poorly
>designed piece of software it is. It violates just about every human factors
>principle in software design (consistency, dialog closure, smooth  error
>handling, etc). And of course, the documentation is a joke.

>The only good thing about it is that it serves as a source of wonderful
>examples for my software engineering course on how not to design systems.

>Why is this damned thing so common?

To some extent it is a case of "you get what you pay for".  nn is 
distributed for free via anonymous ftp.  People who write programs in
their spare time that they intend to distribute for free generally
want to develop a program that is useful to sophisticated users
such as themselves. 

Personally I'm very happy with nn because I can scan a large number of
newsgroups/articles quickly.  I have to admit though that some of our
users have difficulty using it (nn is the only newsreader we teach our
users).
-- 
John Stewart -- Computing and Communications Services, Carleton University
Internet: jstewart@ccs.carleton.ca or Mr.Canoehead@algonquin.carleton.ca  
"The average middle income family with two parents and children pays $2,945
more in Federal taxes than they would have under the tax policies in place
before the Tories first came to power in 1984."
From: vincent@cad.gatech.edu (Vincent Fox)
Newsgroups: news.software.nn
Subject: nn6.4.18: dumps core creating .newsrc?
Date: 11 Nov 1992 17:07:42 -0500
Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology, CAE/CAD Lab
NNTP-Posting-Host: cae.cad.gatech.edu

nn6.4.18 compiled under SunOS 4.1.1 for a Sun 3/260. Ask all the right
questions, but dumps core and exits when trying to create a .newsrc.
Any clues?

Newsgroups: news.software.nn
From: fitz@wang.com (Tom Fitzgerald)
Subject: Re: Why is NN so common?
Organization: Wang Labs, Lowell MA, USA
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 01:10:13 GMT
Keywords: poor design

green@ie.utoronto.ca (Marc Green) writes:

> 've recent switched to a machine that uses nn and am stunned at what poorly
> designed piece of software it is. It violates just about every human factors
> principle in software design (consistency, dialog closure, smooth  error
> handling, etc). And of course, the documentation is a joke.

And human-factors folks wonder why nobody ever listens to them....

> The only good thing about it is that it serves as a source of wonderful
> examples for my software engineering course on how not to design systems.
> Why is this damned thing so common?

Because it's a wonderfully usable piece of software.  Traditional human
factors principles are irrelevant to nn.

nn's popularity should tell you something about the importance of human
factors gospel.  Human factors principles are wonderful for designing
software that can be used by anybody, no matter how stupid, with little
training, without getting into trouble.  But that's not what people want in
a newsreader.  They want something that lets them read enormous volumes of
news, very quickly.  It's ok if the learning curve is steep and commands
are cryptic, as long as they're fast to type and they get you where you
want to be immediately.  nn is an expert's UI, not a beginner's UI.

Please build another newsreader according to all the human factors
principles you know, and release it to the net.  I think you'll find that
people love it for a week, complain about it for a second week, then delete
it and replace it with nn.  (Or trn - nn's biggest failing is its lack of
threading.)  With nn, people hate it for a week, tolerate it for 3 weeks,
then you can't get them to stop using it.

The design of the automobile user interface also violates every known
human-factors principle.  No consistency, no error handling, terrible
documentation, and it takes six months to learn it.  It's also the perfect
user interface for a car.

-- 
Tom Fitzgerald   Wang Labs       fitz@wang.com   "I went to the universe today;
1-508-967-5278   Lowell MA, USA                   It was closed...."


Newsgroups: news.software.nn
From: adam@muskwa.ucs.ualberta.ca (Adam Mark)
Subject: help info on consolidated menu wanted
Summary: what is the latest version of nn?
Keywords: nn ver 6.4.9 #2, consolidated-menu, not-supported?
Organization: University Of Alberta, Edmonton Canada
Distribution: news
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 02:55:52 GMT


      Does anyone know if consolidated menus are supported by version
6.4.9 #2 (running under Sun Os) ? If not (as seems to be the case)
what is the latest version of nn? Thanks in advance

Newsgroups: news.software.nn