From: perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (perlman eric)
Subject: Re: $1,000,000 BET, ELGHANI VS ERIC PERLMAN, interesting (was: Terrorism)
Summary: I won't sink to Elghani's level anymore.
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1992 04:20:59 GMT

In article <1992Feb29.192709.2606860@locus.com> jle@locus.com (John Elghani/10000000) writes:
>In article <1992Feb27.194610.2784@colorado.edu> perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (perlman eric) writes:
>>In article <1992Feb27.035816.2602548@locus.com> jle@locus.com (John Elghani/10000000) writes:
>>>	************************************************************* 
>>>	*  ERIC PERLMAN's REPUTATION AFTER THIS REACHED THE GUTTER  *
>>>	*************************************************************
>>>
>>>ERIC OWES ALL OF THE INTELLIGENT PEOPLE AN APOLOGY. THIS PROVES 
>>>THAT HIS SUPPLIED INFO IS OUT OF FEELINGS AND NOT OUT OF FACTS. 
>>
>>First of all, I'm not the betting sort.  I also don't have $1 million to
>>put on the line if I were wrong (and I'm pretty sure I'm not)
>
>I am willing to reduce it to $1000.00 because I am definite.  Besides,
>why did you chicken out Eric?

I didn't chicken out.  Obviously, the word "refutation" is not in your
vocabulary.  Your "challenge" was utterly refuted.  And now in response
all you can come back with is:

>>Let me remind you, John:  I provided a source, the critically acclaimed
>>book "Inside the PLO" for my information.  You've provided assorted
>>allegations, stuff from memory, and hearsay, in general.  How about a
>>source?
>
>I will provide you with a source and assertion if you are willing to 
>bet $1000.00, or admit that your info on the net are gutted by
>much propaganda and only that.

No.  You made the challenge, and one you knew I could not accept at
that.  I've provided all my evidence, and all you've come back with is
more bluster.  Very frankly, John, I don't believe you.  I doubt anyone
else on the net believes you either.  Put up or shut up.

Very frankly, I'm a graduate student, and I live on a typical grad
student's budget.  I don't have $1000 to spare either.  Nor am I obliged
to respond to inane blather like yours.  Well, I won't do so anymore.
And you've lost this challenge - by a first-round knockout.

>Or, how about providing me with a source that shows that Nar Elbared
>was PLO free by 1982.  I challenge you.
>
>
>I HOPE YOU DON'T CONTINUE TO CHICKEN. PLEASE PROVE TO THE PEOPLE 
>THAT YOU ARE NOT A CHICKEN BY PROVING I AM WRONG.  I AM BETTING AND
>CHALLENGING AND WILLING TO SPEND $1000 TO PROVE I AM WRONG.  IF YOU
>ARE SURE OF YOUR PROPAGANDA THEN LETS GET DOWN TO BUSINESS.  OR
>YOU MUST APPOLOGIZE ON THE NET FOR JOHN ELGHANI.
>
>jle

John, you're ducking the issue.  I refuted your post point by point.
You've responded only with this blather.  It's clear that you can't be
believed on this either.

As far as I'm concerned, Elghani, you can now talk yourself into
oblivion on this topic.  Unless you respond in a logical way (and your
last posting doesn't even come close to this), you'll talk to a blank
wall, and I'll dignify your posts with about as much comment as I do
those of Hasan Mutlu and Ahmet Cosar - which is exactly as much as they
deserve.

-- 
"How sad to see/A model of decorum and tranquillity/become like any other sport
A battleground for rival ideologies to slug it out with glee." -Tim Rice,"Chess"
     Eric S. Perlman  <perlman@qso.colorado.edu> or <eric@lyra.Colorado.EDU> 
  Center for Astrophysics and Space Astronomy, University of Colorado, Boulder

		#	End Second Quoted Message	#

>I told you over and over to send directly to me.  

This is a lie, as I told Elghani in an email response to him which I
sent out over 2 hours before this message was posted to the net.  Only
within the last two messages has such a request *ever* been in his
"challenge" messages.  

> If you have  posted
>your evidence on tpm, I assume it is not the most efficient way.  You
>know we all have work to do, and don't have everyday to read news.

And I don't?  Elghani, this is an insult, but it is sadly typical of
you, and displays an annoying lack of character.  I have quite enough
work to do, and have a full time job just as you seemingly do.  If
something is important to you, you make time for it.  If someone doesn't
post a specific response for email copies he/she should realize that the
only response he/she will get is through the net (e.g. on tpm).  You
never asked for email copies before, as can be checked by scanning
through the above included messages.  I have checked all the messages in
the series for this.

>Our deamon here cleans the news more often than  you can think; depending
>on the disk space left.
>
>So, where is your evidence again, I assume very much that it has no
>base because I lived most of my life in the Tripoli area, and have
>visited many times after th ugly Israeli invasion.  Neither the news
>here, nor the people there ever talked about Israel going to Nar Albared, 
>or even as close as Tripoli.  The only person that claims so is ERIC PERLIMAN.

Frankly, it doesn't matter where you lived anymore.  I strongly suspect
you're saying this because you know you're beaten and you want someone,
anyone to give your arguments even an ounce of weight (which would be a
first in this forum).  It doesn't wash.

By the way, Elghani sent me this very same message in email over four
hours before he posted it to the net.  He got my response, which
follows, over two hours before posting this to the net.  I believe this
to be a violation of netiquette by him.

This was my response to his letter in email.  Since he has seen fit to
make his original email public (originally it had my posting
interspersed, as will be seen, as well as a six-line message from me as
a preface to the copy of the article I had sent him.) I am fully
justified in posting my original response to it to the net.

		#	Begin Third Quoted Message	#

From perlman Wed Apr 15 15:45:07 1992
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 92 15:45:01 -0600
From: perlman (perlman eric)
To: jle@locus.com
Subject: Re: The challenge
Cc: perlman
Status: R

I had a very hard time believing what you wrote.  How you can claim both
honesty and a win in the challenge after this is beyond me.  Please read
below.

> I am getting very, very tired of putting up with your continuing "challenge."
> I've mailed you my response (my fourth) as you asked.  


>You claim to have posted an evidence, but where is it.  I never saw it.
>I told you over and over to send directly to me.   If you have  posted
>your evidence on tpm, I assume it is not the most efficient way.  You
>know we all have work to do, and don't have everyday to read news.

Correction.  This is the very first time on this thread you have
requested I send copies directly to you.  I have those messages saved,
so I can check that (and I have).  I posted the evidence, and everyone
else has seen it each time.  You're either being dishonest or
disingenuous, because I know you've seen it (because you responded to it
the first time, and included it at the end, but ignored its content)

>Our deamon here cleans the news more often than  you can think; depending
>on the disk space left.

>So, where is your evidence again, I assume very much that it has no
>base because I lived most of my life in the Tripoli area, and have
>visited many times after th ugly Israeli invasion.  Neither the news
>here, nor the people there ever talked about Israel going to Nar Albared, 
>or even as close as Tripoli.  The only person that claims so is ERIC PERLIMAN.

Please spell my name right, ok?  In any case, my source, as I've posted
on the net four times now, is the book "Inside the PLO" by Neil C.
Livingstone and David Halevy.  I don't have the book here at work, but
it does back me up on my original statement that in the aftermath of the
Israeli invasion, Nahr al-Bard was rid of the PLO training facilities
and bases there.  It no longer has any significant PLO presence.  The
camp, ironically, was rid of that influence not only through Israeli
operations, but through a number of Syrian reprisals and raids following
the invasion, which actually finished the job.  It was this statement
(or actually a simplification of it) over which you originally
challenged me.


> Very frankly, I find it both telling and dishonest that you have now changed
> the terms of the challenge three times, and continue to refuse to post your

>What TERMS, the challenge still stands, did Israel invade Nah Albared
>and kicked out the PLO in 1982?  or ever if you wish?
>
>Where did I ever change the terms on you?  I believe that you are
>confused whenever I mention Tripoli right?

Absolutely not.  This is untrue, and you know it.  Here's the terms of
the original challenge, via your original posting and my response.  If
you don't think you changed the terms of the challenge, you need some
reading lessons.                 

[Following this was a copy of my first response to Elghani, which was
the first quoted message above.  I have deleted this for brevity, and
will resume the quote directly after that finished - ESP]

[....]

>Well sir, if they had to go to Nahr Albared, they should go thru Tripoli
>first, unless they landed thru the sea.  I think you are just a bullshitter
>and don't know where Nahr Albared is, you are confusing it with
>Sabra + Shatela, or Ein El Hilwi camps.  No Albared is close to 
>the syrian borders way way way way up in the North, where is your
>evidence, evidence,  I am willing to challenge it with a million $'s bet.

Haven't you ever heard of air strikes?  Please read what I said, and
repeated on the net three times after.  There is no confusion going on
over Nahr al-Bard's location on my part.  

> source, instead retelling your "story".  Meanwhile, I have refuted and fulfilled
> the challenge each time, but you haven't acknowledged it yet.
> 
> Eric Perlman
> 
> >From boulder!qso.Colorado.EDU!perlman Wed Apr 15 10:52:47 MDT 1992
> Article: 28575 of talk.politics.mideast
> Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
> Path: boulder!qso.Colorado.EDU!perlman
> >From: perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (perlman eric)
> Subject: Re: ERIC PERLIMAN, WHY DO YOU IGNORE MY BET, I CHALLENGE YOU.
> Message-ID: <1992Apr15.164019.11080@colorado.edu>
> Summary: Elghani is dishonest, knows he lost his bet, so changes it
> Sender: news@colorado.edu (The Daily Planet)
> Nntp-Posting-Host: qso.colorado.edu
> Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
> References: <1992Apr14.030948.1015528@locus.com> <1992Apr14.154710.1741@colorado.edu> <1992Apr14.231940.2407939@locus.com>
> Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1992 16:40:19 GMT
> Lines: 60
> 
> In article <1992Apr14.231940.2407939@locus.com> jle@locus.com (John Elghani/10000000) writes:
> >
> >	ERIC THE IGNORANT, I CHALLENGE YOU TO POST A  QUESTION ON
> >	SOC.CULTURE.LEBANON SAYING THAT ISRAEL OCCUPIED TRIPOLI
> >	AND NAHR ALBARED AND KICKED OUT THE PLO. 
> 
> John the dishonest, the one who can't read.  This changes the terms of
> the bet AGAIN.  You aren't even honest enough to stick to the terms of a
> challenge which you originally posted.  You also aren't honest enought
> to realize that I've met the original challenge.
> 
> >	ALL OF THE LEBANESE WILL TAKE A GOOD LAUGH AT YOU.
> >
> >you are proving your ignorance of where Nahr ALbared is,
> >by not knowing where it is, and trying to show facts about
> >this camp, your've proved to us that you only lie and just a bullshitter.
> >I challenge you to prove that you are not ignorant, bullshitter, and a liar
> >by getting of this hook.
> >
> >Over and over again, you've ignored my bet.  To prove that you are
> >not ignoring it as, I expect you to respond,  CC me at my direct mail
> >as well as tpm.
> 
> You can't read, it's quite obvious.  Not only have I NEVER ignored your
> bet, I have answered it and refuted your claim each time by posting the
> evidence.  You haven't posted a single reason why anyone should believe
> you, and considering your record, no one does.  
> 
> The only liar on this net is John Elghani.  Elghani, you owe me the
> money.  You're just not honest enough to admit it or even to answer the
> evidence I've provided.
> 
> >Again, I bet you $1000 or $5000 (or your chose of $'s) that Israel
> >never reached the Tripoli nor the Baalbak Palestinian Camps, in which
> >Nahr Albared is a part of.
> >
> >I am darn positive, and willing to challenge you to show YOUR typical
> >ignorance.
> >
> >How about this, if I lost, I'll pay you twice what you pay me if
> >you lost, is that a bet?  If not then your ignorance is as immense
> >as your lies.
> 
> Unfortunately, Elghani, you already lost the bet, weeks ago; I have
> already posted my evidence.  I won't sink to your level.  
> 
> Let's remember something, shall we?  Elghani has now challenged me four
> different times about this.  He has CHANGED the terms of the challenge
> THREE TIMES.  His challenge has been refuted EVERY TIME.  He has
> presented absolutely *NO* evidence to back up his claims.  I have
> presented evidence from a highly acclaimed source to back up the *FACTS*
> I have presented.  
> 
> Dear reader, who do you believe?
> 
> -- 
> "How sad to see/A model of decorum and tranquillity/become like any other sport
> A battleground for rival ideologies to slug it out with glee." -Tim Rice,"Chess"
>      Eric S. Perlman  <perlman@qso.colorado.edu> or <eric@lyra.Colorado.EDU> 
>   Center for Astrophysics and Space Astronomy, University of Colorado, Boulder
> 
> 
> 

At this point, I am forced to believe you are either being dishonest, or
disingenuous.  I posted the above on the net, and it refutes your
challenge completely, whether you lived in Tripoli all your life or
not.  I know you saw it because in your next response you included its
text, but then said I chickened out, simply ignoring the fact that it
refuted every word you had said, and not challenging a word of it with
any evidence at all.  You still haven't provided any evidence.

You lost the challenge.  You just won't admit it to yourself.  I expect
either a public apology, or the money.  Either will do.  

		#	End Third Quoted Message	#

Quite obviously, John Elghani is little more than a bag of hot air.  He
has absolutely nothing in the way of ethics, nor reasoning ability.  I
won't respond to him in this forum anymore, as I can't waste my time
with the blatherings of a recalcitrant child.


-- 
"How sad to see/A model of decorum and tranquillity/become like any other sport
A battleground for rival ideologies to slug it out with glee." -Tim Rice,"Chess"
     Eric S. Perlman  <perlman@qso.colorado.edu> or <eric@lyra.Colorado.EDU> 
  Center for Astrophysics and Space Astronomy, University of Colorado, Boulder
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast