From: allenmk@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (Allen Melinda Kay)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Billy Graham carrying message from the Pope
Date: 10 Apr 92 02:55:13 GMT
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder

mmh@cs.qmw.ac.uk (Matthew Huntbach) writes:

>From: allenmk@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (Allen Melinda Kay)
>>I know that I am not a Catholic, and I can explain why if anyone really cares
>>to know.  But I also know that a Catholic who confesses Jesus Christ as Lord
>>and has accepted the forgiveness He offers us through His death on the cross
>>can be just as much of a Christian as I am, if not more.

>Now this is what puzzles me. All Catholics confess Jesus Christ
>as Lord and accept the forgiveness he offers us through His
>death on the Cross. The central statement of Catholic beliefs,
>the Creed, which we recite at mass, says as much, and the theme
>is repeated throughout the Catholic liturgy. So from where
>does this argument come that "Catholics are not Christians", or
>that to be saved you simply need to recite some formula about
>"accepting Jesus as Lord".

I am speaking from my own personal experience with Catholics.  I have friends
who consider themselves devout Catholics because they observe the rituals, but
who know little or nothing about what the Bible says.  When I ask these friends
what they believe about Christ, they do not know.  One girl does not confess
Jesus as her Lord at all in her every day life, regardless what she says at
Mass.  Would you agree with me that the Creed she recites at Mass, if she does 
not attempt to live her life in keeping with it, means little for her?  She 
recites this Creed not because of her beliefs (and this I know because of 
discussions with her), but because it is what she has been taught to do.  At 
least my friend is honest and does not claim to be a Christian--in fact, she 
becomes hostile when people equate her brand of Catholicism with Christianity.

I say "her brand of Catholicism" because I know Catholics who are completely
different.  They know what they believe and why.  They are familiar with
Scripture, and are not reciting the Creed just as a ritual--rather, they
recite it as an integral part of their lives; not only do they recite it when
they are at Mass, but they live it as well.  Interestingly, they also consider
themselves Christians, unlike the Catholic friend I mentioned above.  For them,
there is an intense meaning behind the rituals they perform, and they are
absolutely convicted of the Truth of Christ.  They are Christians not merely
because their parents had them baptized and taught them certain rites--they are
Christians because they have truly confessed Christ as their Lord and Saviour.

When I speak of "confessing Christ," I do not mean, as you seem to imply,
uttering a particular formula about who He is.  I mean living that 'formula.'
I mean that you don't just say that you believe in Christ, but you try to live
as He did.  I don't mean just going to church on Sunday and reciting a
liturgy--I mean committing your entire life to your confession of Christ as
Lord.  That, after all, is what it means to have Him as Lord--to submit your
entire life to His control.  Of course, everyone is going to mess up once in
awhile--we still sin--but He is forgiving.  

This, I believe, is what it means for anyone, Catholic or Protestant, to be a
Christian.  Look at the commandment, "Do not take the Name of the Lord in
vain."  A Jewish rabbi pointed out to me the great significance of this
command.  It isn't merely an injunction against swearing.  When I take the
name "Christian," I are taking the Lord's Name upon myself--if I do not want
to take this Name in vain, I must let it be more than a simple formula that I
say once a week at church--I must make it my entire life.



>Can you not see how insulting it is to suggest that regular
>Catholics are not Christians? Do you suppose that we do not
>understand our own prayers and liturgy? The question is what do
>we mean by "faith"? How do we know someone really believes in
>something and is not just reciting it from habit? We can all
>say "oh yes, I REALLY, REALLY believe", but do we? I would
>suggest that it is the length to which he or she is prepared to
>go, the things he or she is prepared to do because of that
>belief - so, you see, we are led from "justification by faith"
>to "justification by works".

I am sorry that you considered this insulting.  I don't recall saying anything
about "regular Catholics" at all, since I do not know enough "regular
Catholics" to make such a blanket statement.  Rather, what I said (and I
thought I had made this clear, though I guess now that I didn't) was based on
my experience with several Catholic friends.  Let me extend what I said to
Protestants as well--there are, certainly, Protestants who are not Christians
for the same reason there are Catholics who are not Christians.  I do not say
that all Catholics do not understand their own prayers and liturgy--I do,
however, say that I know Catholics who do not understand these things, who
recite it from habit (which they admit).  I spent several hours talking with a 
Catholic friend in Germany.  She told me she had no idea what the words she had 
been taught from  the time she was small meant.  She did not know Scripture, 
she did not know that Jesus Christ claimed to be God.  And yet she had attended 
Mass all her life.  Many of the Catholics and Protestants that I met in Germany
were much like her--they were apathetic about their religion, claiming
adherence to one church or another based upon which church they were born into
rather than what they believed.  In the religion class I took there--an
"Evangelical" (Lutheran) class (students choose to take "Evangelical,"
"Catholic," or "Ethics")--Christian doctrine was not even taught.  The claims
of Christ to be God were not mentioned except perhaps in passing.  I am not
sure how the Catholic class went, but based on the conversations I had with
Catholics in my school, I would not be surprised if it were much different,
unless all of them were lazy students who didn't listen to what the teacher was
saying.

I do not believe that we are saved by our works--Paul makes that clear.  "For
by grace you are saved through faith.  It is the gift of God, not of works,
lest any man should boast."  (I hope I quoted that correctly--I'm calling on
memory, since I'd rather not go upstairs to get my Bible now.  In any case,
it's Ephesians 2:8-9)  Only God knows what is really on our hearts, and whether
any person is truly a Christian or not.  However, I do not think that it is
judgemental or insulting for me to say that not all Catholics (and likewise not
all Protestants) are Christians.  I do believe very strongly that there are
Christians in both groups.  

>A previous posting of mine on this subject was suppressed by
>the moderator - I hope that this one is slightly more
>constuctive. When I see people promising instant salvation by
>"coming forward" at Billy Graham meetings, or reciting some
>doxology about "Jesus as Lord", I feel some of the anger which
>perhaps Martin Luther felt when the Catholic Church of his day
>promised instant salvation through indulgences and other
>mechanisms. I don't see salvation coming this way - it is
>something that we must work at. I am sorry that my anger at
>this should sometimes come through in negative postings.

I would also be angry if the Church today offered Salvation through indulgences
and such.  I've tried to make clear that I don't believe Salvation is simply a 
matter of "coming forward."  A friend of mine "went forward" at a Billy Graham
Crusade, but she was not saved there.  Salvation came to her after a long
struggle with the occult.  But Salvation is not something that we ourselves can
work at--yes, Paul says (in Philippians, I believe), "Work out your Salvation
with fear and trembling," but he adds, "For it is the power of God that works
within you."  As much as I work and struggle, it amounts to nothing if I do not
let God do the work in me--I cannot do it of myself, for I am a sinful person.
He did the work for my salvation when He died on the cross, and I claim that
His power is incomplete if I insist that I must do more work before I can be
saved.  I do not believe that His power is incomplete.  But the belief that His 
work alone saved me does not excuse me from further work--now I want to work to 
please Him and to become like Him.  And again, as I work very hard at it, I 
must remember that it is really He who is at work in me, making my feeble 
efforts into something beautiful.

Melinda K. Allen
-- 
Melinda K. Allen                  The LORD is close to the brokenhearted 
allenmk@ucsu.colorado.edu       and saves those who are crushed in spirit.   
allenmk@tramp.colorado.edu			               Psalm 34:18