Newsgroups: soc.culture.french,talk.politics.guns
Subject: Re: Guns, and the necessity to trust our governement.
From: zeleny@husc9.harvard.edu (Michael Zeleny)
Date: 18 Aug 92 19:47:35 EDT
Organization: The Phallogocentric Cabal
Keywords: guns and surrealism

In article <26720@life.ai.mit.edu> 
benjamin@rice-chex.ai.mit.edu (Benjamin Renaud) writes:

>In article <1992Aug18.142525.14856@husc3.harvard.edu> 
>zeleny@husc9.harvard.edu (Michael Zeleny) writes:

LM:
>>>  If the "will of the people" results in madmen being allowed to buy fully
>>>functionnal assault rifles, then going in the street and shooting passers-by,
>>>then, yes, the situation requires weapon control, at the very least.
>>>  And don't tell me I'm pessimistic. It happens - in USA, at least.

MZ:
>>By the same token, if "the will of the people" results in madmen being
>>allowed to subject their country to "ethnic cleansing", then, yes, the
>>situation requires weapons availability to the potential victims, at
>>the very least.
>>
>>And don't tell me I'm pessimistic.  It happened to my grandparents and
>>their parents, and it's happening now -- in Bosnia, at least.
>>
>>Finally, I prefer having to cope with the costs of liberty to paying
>>the price of blind trust in the government control.  The governments
>>have been known to throw my people to the wolves -- remember Vichy?

BR:
>Well, the thing is you see, guns will -never- help you against a
>government. The day there is a coup d'etat in the US (which will have
>the support of the army, because it needs it),
>
>n ** you will look rather silly waving you little colt at a BIG TANK !!**

I would look far sillier standing in line for the showers.

BR:
>The US has the biggest (and best of course...) military in the world.
>A few (even a few milion) hunting rifles will do NOTHING against it.

As a matter of fact, I own no hunting rifles, since I no longer have the
time to hunt.  Now let us perform a thought experiment.  I live in a city
whose layout is intimately known to me.  Suppose a coup comes; I pick up my
SIG AMT .308, with 4 extra magazines (100 rounds total), which allows me to
hit a dinner plate-sized target at 600 meters with open sights, offhand.
On my person I can easily carry another 100 rounds and a telescopic sight,
which increases my effective range to 1000 meters, plus a 9mm P210 with 150
rounds of pistol ammunition, plus camping supplies sufficient for several
days.  Now think about the number of tank commanders I can take out before
my luck runs out; then multiply this number by your estimate of the total
number of like-minded individuals.  Consider Vietnam, Lebanon, Northern
Ireland, Afghanistan, and other similar cases before you answer.

BR:
>Now, guns save no one. Look at Europe. If guns save people in the US,
>it's ONLY BECAUSE THE SAME GUNS WERE MADE AVAILABLE TO CRIMINALS.

I am looking at Europe.  Neither Russia nor Yugoslavia allowed their
citizens to have easy access to weapons.  Yet the same military weapons
were made available not only to criminals, but to private armies.

BR:
>A gun, like tobacco, is a government approved good which, when used as
>directed, causes death.

Sometimes death is an appropriate outcome.

>Benjamin.
>
>Although it does not seem directly relevant to scf, i feel is sort of
>is...for some reason...shrug...

cordially,
mikhail zeleny@husc.harvard.edu
"Un de mes plus grands plaisirs est de jurer Dieu quand je bande."