HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: srini@engin.umich.edu (Srinivasan Pichumani)
Subject: PeyAzhvAr pAsuram (was Re: Tirippati - Saivaite ?? !!)
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 92 14:19:26 EDT
Organization: University of Michigan Engineering, Ann Arbor

In article <1992Aug27.165034.9013@aio.jsc.nasa.gov> nas_ng@jsc.nasa.gov. writes:
>
>                       ------------------------------
>                       Tiruppati - Saivaite ??? !!!
>                      -------------------------------
>
> I read in T. K. T. Viraraghavacharya, History of the Tipuppati
>temple, vol.2, TTD publication, 1979 that:
>rulers, (Sadasivaraya is one among them) converted the temple into
>that of Virabhadra, a Saivaite temple.
>In a recent and excellent book:
>H. Daniel Smith (Syracuse Univ.) and M. Narasimhachary,
>Handbook of Hindu Gods and Goddesses,
>Sundeep Prakashan, New Delhi, 1991
>treat Tiruppati as the most famous Vaishnava shrine in India,
>but the authors note the following points also;
>
>1) kArttikEya is found as one of Venkatesvara's sahasranamams.
>2) Bilva leaves are used for worship
>3) nAga-AbharaNa (snake jewellery) so common in naTaraja and siva idols,
>is found on Balaji. Even though Vishnu sleeps on the cosmic serpent,
>it is rare to find snakes on Vishnu's body.
>4) To confound matters further, Alvars sing of Venkatesvara as a
>Hari-Hara manifestation.
>
>In conclusion, even though there are lot of references to Venkatesvara
>as Vishnu found throughout history, his origins are not clear.
>N. Ganesan
>nas_ng@gese03.jsc.nasa.gov

Along these same lines, you can find in the book 
by T.K.T.Viraraghavacharya a pAsuram of
PeyAzhvAr which is a pointer to the ambiguity surrounding the origins of
the Tirupati temple. Remember that PeyAzhvAr is one of the earliest 
AzhvArs (~ 6th-7th century AD), and as such belongs to an era preceding
the Vaishanava/Saiva polemics. In this pAsuram, 
he says effectively that "you look like Siva to me, you look like  
Vishnu to me -- rather a blend of the two to me" and 
list attributes of both that are to be found in the Lord of this temple.

tAzh cadaiyum nIN mudiyum oNmazhuvum cakkaramum
cUzh aRavum ponnANum tOndru mAl(m?) -- cUzhum
tirandaruvi pAyum tirumalai mEl endaikku
iranduruvum ondrAi icaindu

MS has sung this pAsuram as a prelude to the AnnamAcArya kriti 
"enta mAtramuna evvaru talachina anta mAtrame nIvu" -- the appropriateness
of the sentiment expressed in this pAsuram and in the kriti is quite 
striking.

--Srini.
From: Veeramany.Sthanumurthy@bbs.oit.unc.edu (Veeramany Sthanumurthy)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil
Subject: Sorry Re: Repost: Re: ammA/appA
Date: 25 Aug 92 19:15:51 GMT
Organization: Extended Bulletin Board Service

I am sorry about reposting this article to SCT. It was
meant for ACT.

Sthan.

--
   The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the University of
     North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the Campus Office for Information
        Technology, or the Experimental Bulletin Board Service.
           internet:  bbs.oit.unc.edu or 152.2.22.80
Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil
From: kat@doe.carleton.ca (Kathiravan Krishnamurthi)
Subject: kamban-Ramaayanam
Organization: Dept. of Electronics, Carleton University
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 18:04:01 GMT




       Here is a famous piece from Kamban. Please feel free to suggest corrections.
   I would like if somebody in the valai will translate and comment about the poetry.

   Eyes speak when lovers meet. Rama and Sita are seeing each other. Here goes Kamban

   "yeNNarum nalathinAL inaya niRuzhi
    kaNNodu kaNNinaik kavvi ondRiyondRu
    uNNavum nilaipeRAthu uNarvum ondRida
    aNNalum nOkinaan, avaLum nOkinaaL"

   kamban.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil
From: Venkatachalam Aruna  (Affable)
Subject: muruga and chEval
Reply-To: aruna@tree.egr.uh.edu (Venkatachalam Aruna)
Organization: University of Houston
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 22:44:44 GMT

 Tell the North indians "Lord Muruga", they won't understand. Because
in hindi, muruga refers to the bird "chEval". They'll understand only
if you say Lord Kaarthik. They won't understand any other names of
Lord Muruga.
My question: Did the bird(in north) get the name from the God's
name(in south)? Or is it vice-versa?

Cheers,
Venkat
--
venkat@jetson.uh.edu                  | If you love something,set it free.
venkat@menudo.uh.edu                  | If it comes back, it is yours.
aruna@tree.egr.uh.edu(NeXT mails okay)| If it does not, it never was.
(713)-923-7773(h) & (713)-743-4250(w) |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Xref: sparky soc.culture.tamil:1636 soc.culture.indian:29446
From: srini@ireq-num.hydro.qc.ca
Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil,soc.culture.indian
Subject: Oldest reference to Tirupati
Date: 26 Aug 92 19:16:47 GMT
Reply-To: srini@ireq-num.hydro.qc.ca (K.Srinivasan)
Organization: IREQ, Hydro-Quebec, QC, Canada
Originator: srini@acr

Chera (Kerala) king Ilango adigal's reference in Silappadigaram of
about 200 AD. is believed to be the earliest written reference to the
existance of Tirumalai Temple. The relevant passage is reproduced below.

\(TAMIL)
veengu neer aruvi vEngadam ennum            (On the peak of the high
Onguyar malaiyaththu uchchi meemisai        mountains called vEngadam with fat
virikadhir NYaayiRum thingaLum viLangi      waterfalls......)
irumarungOngiya idai nilaiththaanaththu
minnukkodiyuduththu viLangu viRpoondu
nanniRa mEgam ninRadhu pOlap
pagaiyaNangaazhiyum paalvaNNachchangamum
thagai peRu thaamaraik kaiyil Endhi
nalam kiLar aaram maarbil poondu
polamboo aadaiyil polindhu thOnRiya
sengaN nediyOn ninRa vaNNamum

(madhurai kaandam, kadukkan kadhai 35-51)

Could some one post a good English translation to this please?

K. Srinivasan  srini@ireq-num.hydro.qc.ca
From: sundar@indigo1.hsis.uci.edu (M. Sundaramoorthy)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil
Subject: Tirupur and volley Ball
Date: 25 Aug 92 18:05:45 GMT
Organization: University of California, Irvine

In article <BtJsnF.HHw@ireq.hydro.qc.ca> srini@ireq-num.hydro.qc.ca (Srinivasan K.) writes:
>>
>>
>>at the Sengunthar Youth Conference in 'Tirupur'.  He was soon asked by 
>>
>>Meenan Vishnu
>
>There was an article about 'Tirupur', in Hindu some time in March 1992.
>
>K. Srinivasan

	(stuff about 'Tirupur' deleted).

	Tirupur is also a center of Volley Ball tournaments. Another place
	in TN where Volley ball is popular is Tirunelveli, I suppose.
	(Nellai friends' club)

	Volley ball is popular only Kerala, like foot ball is in West Bengal.

	The undeserved popularity of cricket undermines all other sports
	in India and so in TN.

	The US Olymics Volley Ball team caught head lines, otherwise dominated
	by the basket ball 'Dream Team', when they shaved off their heads 
	en masse in support of their team mate, baldy Bob Samuelson.

	Most of the US team players are from California, including, Steve
	Timmons, where I live now :-).

	Any information about volley ball in TN, be it from Tirupur or
	Nellai or some other place, will be appreciated, at least by me.

a volley ball fan,
M. Sundaramoorthy
sundar@indigo1.hsis.uci.edu
sundar@esv1.hsis.uci.edu   
Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil
From: Venkatachalam Aruna  (Affable)
Subject: Siledai
Reply-To: aruna@tree.egr.uh.edu (Venkatachalam Aruna)
Organization: University of Houston
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 15:35:02 GMT

I don't know the exact wordings of this siledai.
This was a conversation between two 'pulavar'.

  iruvarum saappittapin, oru pulavar maRRavaridam,
  "saapitta idathaik kazhuvu" enkirar. utkaarntha idam,
  vaai enkira irandu arththaNGalil.
  maRRa pulavar than manaiviyidam kooRinaar, "aamam,
  avar sonna idaththai kazhuvu". athE irandu arththaNGalil.

Can any knowledgeable nettor post the exact one?

Cheers,
Venkat
--
venkat@jetson.uh.edu                  | If you love something,set it free.
venkat@menudo.uh.edu                  | If it comes back, it is yours.
aruna@tree.egr.uh.edu(NeXT mails okay)| If it does not, it never was.
(713)-923-7773(h) & (713)-743-4250(w) |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil
From: selvakum@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca (C.R.Selvakumar - Electrical Engineering)
Subject: Re: echo words
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 15:22:46 GMT

In article <BtnD8H.9Jn@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca>, selvakum@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca (C.R.Selvakumar - Electrical Engineering) writes:
> In article <1992Aug27.025216.23816@cbnews.cb.att.com>, rnk@cbnews.cb.att.com (ram.n.kumar) writes:
> > In article <BtM5xD.6M6@watdragon.uwaterloo.ca> nasokan@yoho.uwaterloo.ca (Asokan) writes:
> > >In article <BtLvvx.CsM@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca> selvakum@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca (C.R.Selvakumar - Electrical Engineering) writes:
> > >[...]
> > >>> Unrelated memory associations:
> > 
> > [Comments on KIchchu mAchchu deleted]
> > 
> > >
> > >
> > >>> 	mUlai kAlai (maybe only in TE)
> > >>        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > >>
> > >>          I'm sorry i don't know this. Does mUlai means a corner here ?
>        on this doublet [I still hope to do that in the near future].
> 
>        anbudan
> 
>       Selva Selvakumar (selvakum@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca)
>        called "kIlai"
         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
          I'm sorry this last line inadvertently got attached(!)
          at the end and please ignore. Thanks.
Xref: sparky soc.culture.tamil:1853 soc.culture.indian:30107
Organization: University of Maine System
Date: Wednesday, 2 Sep 1992 09:51:06 EDT
From: T.C.A.Venkatesan <IO92395@MAINE.MAINE.EDU>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil,soc.culture.indian
Subject: Re: Animal Sacrifice in Temples

In article <Btx9sy.6J8@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca>, mvishnu@morse.uwaterloo.ca (m
vishnu) says:
                                                                   Already
>the Hindu leaders both within India and outside (sankaracarya, prabupada
>of ISCKON for example) have had the guts to write that the animals
>sacrificed in a Vedic ritual go to heaven!
>
>>
>Killing of innocent animals for spiritual upliftment only reflects the
>stupidity of the people who are perforoming/sponsoring them.  It also
>reflects, in my opinion, the primitive (ie backward) nature of the Vedas.
>
>Meenan Vishnu


   As long as the meat is being used for feeding people, it is difficult
to condemn these acts. All the meat in this world comes from killing
'innocent' animals. One either condemns meat-eating or forget the
whole thing. If the animals are just sacrificed and thrown away, or if
killing itself is not done properly, then it is barbaric and needs to
be stopped.

   The spiritual upliftment argument may be just a ploy to satisfy
witnesses (after all, most people that eat meat do not see the
butchering process whereas a ritual is a public act) - like kosher
meat perhaps, or like some muslims do.

   Condemnation of the entire vedas based on this is not right. From what
I have seen, the vedas and in fact hinduism, have lot of contradictory
messages. The right approach is to teach the common man how to pick
up the right stuff. Saying that everything about either is wrong is
a faulty approach!

Cheers,
Venky.


*************************************************************************
 T.C.A. Venkatesan                Bitnet  : IO92395@maine
 Dept. of Physics & Astronomy     Internet: venky@gandalf.umcs.maine.edu
 University of Maine
 Orono, ME 04469                  Phone   : (207) 581-1022

  "dream on 'til your dream comes true"
                                           - Aerosmith
  "the child is grown, the dream is gone"
                                           - Pink Floyd
From: sp2@cec1.wustl.edu (Sundara Pandian)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil
Subject: Re: SCT is 40th in the list of per-reader cost
Date: 3 Sep 1992 16:00:39 -0500
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

Veeramany.Sthanumurthy@bbs.oit.unc.edu (Veeramany Sthanumurthy) writes :

>This is probably a good place to point out the rather
>large amount of material included in a number of follow-ups
>in this group. I understand that deleting lines can be time-
>consuming. But, I try to do it keeping in mind the total
>amount of time wasted by all the (9300 approx) readers who
>might not need all those cascading quotations (not that
>all those quotations make sense to begin with.)
      
     I agree with you. Not all netters care to delete the
 unwanted part in the article that they are replying. So,
 we have to go through both the articles, the original as
 well as the reply, and if we do the same in our reply and
 post our reply without deleting those parts of the earlier
 two articles, we will be building a cascade. I have seen
 such articles lately in this net, but I don't like to
 mention any names.                      

> I don't
>know if this affects the cost aspect referred to, however.
    This affects, really. 
    Relevant portion from a posting by Brian Reid in news.
 groups telling the netters how the cost ratio is computed.
-----------------------------------------
COST RATIO: DOLLARS PER MONTH PER READER

The most controversial field in the survey report is the "$US per month per
reader". It is the estimated number of dollars that are being spent on behalf
of each reader, worldwide, on telephone and computer costs to transmit this
newsgroup. The rate of $.0025 per kilobyte is the same value used in the
UUNET statistics reported biweekly. It is based on discussions among system
administrators about the true cost of news transmission.

The cost ratio is computed as follows:

$US/month/reader = ($USPerMonthPerSite * numberOfSites) / numberOfReaders
$USPerMonthPersite = KBytesTrafficPerMonth * $USPerKByte * Propagation factor
$USPerKByte = 0.0025

Combining all these gives

$USPerMonthPersite =
    KBytesTrafficPerMonth * 0.0025
  = KBytesTrafficPerMonth / 400

Therefore:

$US/month/reader =
    (KBytesTrafficPerMonth * numberOfSites) / (400 * numberOfReaders)

The accuracy of this number is in fact better than the accuracy of the
participation ratio, because the source of error--the network size
estimate--is present both in the numerator and the denominator, and therefore
cancels out. The primary source of bias in this number comes from the bias in
the "estimated number of readers, worldwide", which is described above. Treat
this value as being accurate to within about 25%.
>Brian Reid
-----------------------------------------------
>My () cents, obviously.
   O cents ? A junk article ? I don't think so.

>Sthan.

                                                            S.Pandian
                                                      sp2@cec1.WUSTL.edu
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: sri@stan.xx.swin.oz.au (SRITHARAN K)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil
Subject: Re: A threat from ...
Date: 28 Aug 92 02:59:54 GMT
Organization: Computer Centre, Swinburne University of Tech., Melbourne, Australia.

In <ck.714843682@rosemary> ck@csug.cs.reading.ac.uk (Chandrasekhar Kambhampati) writes:


>The spokesperson for the tigers, the arch-propagandist, anti-everything,
>the terrorist, 
>>make Prabakaran fall at his feet!

>That day may not be that not far off!

It is impossible to happen beause Rajiv is dead and living in hell for
his sins !!

Attack fire with fire - some one said.


>Regards
>chandrasekhar 
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>Elam in Sl was their cry - now an elam in Canada, one in Europe, one in India
>will soon be their cry - Mr M[terrorist] vishnu and his likes are preparing the
>ground for it!
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------

What a rubbishfrom an indian intelect.

Thanks god you are not SL tamil!!!

Sri
From: sundar@golf.cis.ohio-state.edu (N Sundar)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil
Subject: A poem
Date: 30 Aug 92 05:05:50 GMT
Organization: The Ohio State University Dept. of Computer and Info. Science


Here is an interesting poem I once read about Hanuman.

	anjilae  onRu peRRAn anjilae onRaith thAvi
	anjilae  onRARAna AriyarkkAga  aegi
	anjilae  onRu peRRa aNangaik kandu  ayalAr ooril
	anjilae  onRu vaiththAn avan emmai aLithuk kAppAn.

The meaning so far as I am able to make out:
	anjilae onRu peRRan : the son of one of the five elements (i.e.
			      pancha-bhuthas) viz. air; a reference to Hanuman
	anjilae onRaith thAvi: having crossed one of the five oceans viz. the
			       Indian Ocean
	anjilae onRARAna Ariyar: This is interesting. When Ram meets Guha near
				Ganga, he accepts him as a brother. When he 
				meets SugrIva, he accepts him as a sixth
				brother. So, this is a reference to Sugriva.
		AriyarkkAga aegi: having set forth for Sugriva

	anjilae onRu peRRa aNangu: daughter of one of the five elements viz.
				   Sita (daughter of earth ).
		aNangaik kandu: having seen Sita
	ayalAr ooril:  in a stranger's land
	anjilae onRu vaiththAn : he who set one of the five elements, namely
				 fire
	avan emmai aLithuk kAppAn: he will protect & nourish us.

I wonder if somebody can post the author of this verse. Also, if you
disagree with the meaning I have presented, please inform me.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
N. S. Sundar          |    I am ardently against all awkward, affected
GTA, CIS, OSU         |    and artificial alliteration.
Off. ph: 292-4029     |
Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil
From: babu@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Natarajan Sureshbabu)
Subject: Re: kamban-Ramaayanam
Organization: HAC - Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 11:02:42 GMT

In article <kat.715463345@sarek> kat@doe.carleton.ca (Kathiravan Krishnamurthi) writes:
>In <78950@ut-emx.uucp> krshna@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (kishore krshna) writes:


> panjiyoLir vinchukuLir pallavam anungka 
> senjsevia kanjam nimir seeRadiyaLaaki
> am sol iLa manynyai yenna annam ena minnum
> vanjiyenna nanja mena vanja makaL vanthaaL.


Probably the third line is .... mangai ena ...
and the  fourth is .....vanji ena .....
Also what is senjsvia in the 2nd line? Is it senchevia?
I do not know many words in the first two lines.

panjioLir - bright like cotton
vinjukuLir- very cold ( Or is it manjukuLir, i.e. cooler than clouds?)
pallavam, anungka ( anangu?), kanjam - ??

I will start with seeRadiyaaLaaki. 

Isn't vanjam like in vanjam theeRkiRathu used for taking revenge?
If so, why should Soorpanaka, the one this poem refers to, think
of taking revenge? This is the first time she is going to meet
Rama. may be Kamban is refering to something that happened in
a previous avatar(am) of Vishnu. May be Kambans love for Sita
is too great, that he can not even tolerate the idea that
someone would try to lure her husband. He also uses the 
word 'nanju'

Rough meaning, 

The revengeful soorpanakai (vaja makaL), with venom in her 
heart ( nanjam ena), transforming herself as a sweet spoken young lady
(am sol iLa mangai ena) with tiny feet (seeRadiyAlAki) walked in
gracefully like a swan (annam ena). 
She was shining like a climber ( kodi in Tamil)(minnum vanji). ( This comparison
is to bring out the shyness expressed in her posture in front
of Rama, may be)

>
> I am not sure about the words. But the sounds are
>great. This is by far my favourite lines in kamban's
>work.
>
>
>


Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil
From: babu@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Natarajan Sureshbabu)
Subject: Re: kamban-Ramaayanam
Organization: HAC - Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 10:17:32 GMT

In article <67513@hydra.gatech.EDU> gt4084c@prism.gatech.EDU (SRINIVASAN,K) writes:
>In article <kat.715463345@sarek> kat@doe.carleton.ca (Kathiravan Krishnamurthi) writes:
>
><deleted some sandham konjum paadalgaL>
>
>There is one more that I remember in which Kamban uses a sandham
>reflecting what is going on in the story:
>
>When Kumbakarnan had to be woken up for the war, it seems they used
>ulakkais.  I remember only the first two lines of the verse which
>sounds like the action:
>
>uRanguginRa kumbakarNa, ungaL maaya vazhvelaam
>iRanguginRa dhinRu kaaN, ezhundiraay, ezhundhiraay
>----------------
>
>iRanguginRadhu + inRu 
>


The complete version IMHO is as follows

uRanguginRa kumbakarNa, undhan-mAya vAzhvelAm
iRanguginRa dhinRu-kANa ezhunthirAy ezhundhirAy
karangu-pOla vil-piditha kAla-dhoothar kaiyilE
uRanguvAy,    uRanguvAy, ini-kidanthu uRanguvAy.

Meaning:

Oh| sleeping Kumbakarna, today your existence in illusion
(mAya vAzhvu), is coming to an end. ( I do not know what 
karangu means, and so what it qualifies, i.e. vil or
kAladhoothar) From now on, you can sleep in the 
hands of the messengers of Yama(n).

The beauty of the poem is the sound. See the words 
used by Kamban, uRangu, IRangu, karangu etc. They
have the sound of snoring, and thus by the
sound of the poem itself, Kamban conveys the fact
that Kumbakarnan is sleeping.
From: sundar@golf.cis.ohio-state.edu (N Sundar)
Subject: Re: kamban-ramaayanam
Organization: The Ohio State University Dept. of Computer and Info. Science
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 07:48:42 GMT


In article <kat.715531372@sarek>, Kathiravan Krishnamurthi (kat@doe.carleton.
ca) writes:


> In <1992Sep3.110242.14022@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> babu@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Natara
> jan Sureshbabu) writes:

>> panjiyoLir vinchukuLir pallavam anungka 
>> senjsevia kanjam nimir seeRadiyaLaaki
>> am sol iLa manynyai yenna annam ena minnum
>> vanjiyenna nanja mena vanja makaL vanthaaL.


>> Probably the third line is .... mangai ena ...

>    It is manynyai-peacock

This is interesting. I was not aware that thamizh words can end in 'nyai'
(Itrans).

> pallavam-meaning feet.

That throws some light on it. The word `panjiyoLir' probably refers to
cempanchuk kuzhambu, liquid shellac, that ancient women used to decorate
their feet. 

>> senjsevia kanjam nimir seeRadiyaLaaki

Since this part is anybody's guess, I'll make a guess :-) It refers to the
soft sound of her steps. They are supposed to be so quiet they make one's 
ears pick up.

Sundar.