HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: cline+@cs.cmu.edu (Kenneth Cline)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: emergency techniques
Date: 25 Aug 92 22:52:54 GMT
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon

In article <BtInvq.Fzx.2@cs.cmu.edu>, I wrote:
> Why, why, why?  What makes body belays take more attention?

Then, in article <1992Aug24.202903.350@halfdome.sf.ca.us> bob@halfdome.sf.ca.us (Bob Pasker) replied:
>because to hold a body belay, you have to have your hand crossed in front
>of you in a "locked off" position. holding your control hand at your side or
>scratching your ankle with your control hand pinky means you have to MOVE IT
>and quickly to the locked off position.
>
>mechanical belay devices have a wider latitude for hand position.

Look Bob,

From my point of view, you are trying to change the topic to win an
argument.  I stand by my assertion that body belays don't take more
attention to perform.  Mobility is not the issue.

In answer to your new point, consider the number of climbers who
improperly use belay devices:  Too many people completely drop the
braking end of the rope when switching grip;  Others hold both ropes
in one hand;  And plenty of climbers routinely hold the rope in a
non-locked-off position, relying on reflexes to bring the belay under
control in a fall.  There is a real risk of losing control of the
belay as the rope whips through a belay device when the above
techniques are employed - belay devices (other than the GriGri) are by
no means self locking.

Again, let me say that I am not necessarily  recommending the body
belay for everyday use.  I am, however, surprised by the reaction of
so many climbers who seem to be afraid of the technique for the wrong
reasons.

Scratching your ankle is easy.  The details are left as an exercise to
the reader.

Ken
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: kevo@polaris.unm.edu (kevin lane  smithstonana)
Subject: Re: beginner
Date: Thu, 03 Sep 92 18:01:37 GMT
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque NM

Followup-To: 
Distribution: 
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque
Keywords: 

     I am also a beginner and would also like some information

on this wonderful sport.  I am located in New Mexico though and would like

some info on great places to climb out here.  Also if you could send me some 

titles of some books i could pick up.

Thanks
Kevin


Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: allen%asylum.cs.utah.edu@cs.utah.edu (Allen Sanderson)
Subject: Re: Joining Ropes
Date: 31 Aug 92 09:04:51 MDT
Organization: University of Utah CS Dept
Distribution: usa

>In article <1992Aug28.200319.3627@morrow.stanford.edu>
>	Simultaneous second belays
>
>eugene@orville.nas.nasa.gov writes:
>Especially useful for friction slab or ice climbing.  Things where the
>climbing is consistent.  Learned this from the English.  Always, practice
>on easier ground first (unless you are really good).

I would be extremely careful about doing this while ice climbing.  I was
doing this, this past winter while trying a friends tools out.  I went from
a top rope to a free solo in one swing. (75m up off the deck during the 
crux of that pitch).  It made for some exciting climbing for the next 15
minutes.  I very much perfer to have two ropes while following steep ice.

There is a way of getting around this by tying the last six feet of the
rope so that you can tie in twice to the rope. (I won't try two explain it).

Cheers,

Allen R. Sanderson

Salt Lake City, Oootah


"I though you brought the rope"
	A climber to their partner after hiking in 10 miles.
From: czichon@psyche.csc.ti.com (Cary Czichon)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: City Rock Comp
Date: 2 Sep 92 16:01:41 GMT
Organization: Texas Instruments


Mispelling Jim Karn's last name could have caused half the readership here to
run out and try to kick him over.  The parenthetical note was probably
a reasonable precaution.

Cary Czichon
czichon@csc.ti.com
From: luong@naxos.inria.fr (Quang-Tuan Luong)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: emergency techniques
Date: 30 Aug 92 13:02:35 GMT
Reply-To: luong@sophia.inria.fr
Organization: Inria Sofia Antipolis

In article <l9tbrkINNl4n@exodus.Eng.Sun.COM>, bhilden@bigriver.Eng.Sun.COM (Bruce Hildenbrand) writes:

|> >- Body belay is OF COURSE less safe. 

|> This is simply not true.  There are cases, especially when you have
|> questionable anchors(this happens sometimes!), when being able to
|> absorb some of the fall with a body belay can actually be safer.

When anchors are not good enough to hold a *second* I prefer to to talk
of a *belay*. That's sometimes the case on snow, where one might prefer a
body belay, but especially to belay the leader very dynamicaly.

|> I am amazed at all this negative publicity.  I might remind the
|> readers of the net that nearly all great alpine and rock faces
|> (yeah, like the Eiger, Walker Spur, Cime Ovest, El Capitan,
|> etc., etc.) were first climbed using body belays.

And ropes which were in fact static and fragile, without climbing harnesses.
It doesn't mean they were climbed a safe way. For example, Bonatti writes 
("Il giorni grandi") that during his own ascent of Walker Spur, he arrived 
in a crag at a point where he was almost sure that a fall would have been 
fatal, and by some moves that he considered desesperate, went through.

|> the body belay when I fell it is appropriate, to condem it
|> universally is to demonstrate ignorance of its history and 
                                                  ^^^^^^^

Unfortunately the history of climbing is full of fatalities.

Tuan.
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 14:06:03 EDT
From: jim bowers <FQV@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: Leading on 9mm?
 <1992Sep2.130000.18399@mcnc.org>

If you are going to lead on a single nine (and I often do) I suggest the
bluewater 9mm as it is the fattest nine out there.

                                        Jim Bowers
From: sinclair@cc.usu.edu (Bob Sinclair)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: Biotopschutzgesetz translation?
Date: 3 Sep 92 08:23:16 MDT
Organization: Utah State University

Anyone care to translate?
(says it all really doesn't it!)
Bob.
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: eugene@wilbur.nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya)
Subject: Re: Misleading News Reports
Organization: NAS, NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 92 22:59:07 GMT
Distribution: usa

In article <1992Aug25.201223.4258@morrow.stanford.edu>
AS.MSW@forsythe.stanford.edu (Marc Whitney) writes:
>In article <1992Aug25.183237.13249@nas.nasa.gov>,
>What if a bear eats you?  Wouldn't that be a "natural" death?  Would
>it make a difference if the bear devours you in an officially
>designated Wilderness Area as opposed to say on the front deck of a
>Curry Co. facility?

It may depend on your age and the presence or lack of "incriminating evidence."
Like for instance, suppose we took you (nothing personal, just a handy body)
and placed you in the ground with head sticking up like those old Westerns then
poured honey all over you.  We'd have to example the remains and detect
the honey or the hole.  I think the difference with the ODWA and CC would
depend on time of day and whether someone came to your aid or not.
Again consider artificial causes of death.  Very similar to the r.b.
"What's natural?" thread.

>How about lightening, rockfall or avalance?

Similar examples of non-natural death would be presence of a ground wire
attached to a victim, powder burns/smell of Cordite on the rock or snow.

><grin>

I know 8^).

>PS to ENM:  Hows the ratio?

The Ratio is okay.  The group has pretty good S/NR.  Most of the posters are
pretty sharp these days and I would trust MOST of them having good survival
potential.  We are having problems in other net groups.  The last set of email
flames came from news admins on the last set of GIFs (to which I said,
"Complain to the poster, not me").

--eugene miya, NASA Ames Research Center, eugene@orville.nas.nasa.gov
  Resident Cynic, Rock of Ages Home for Retired Hackers
  {uunet,mailrus,other gateways}!ames!eugene
Second Favorite email message: Returned mail: Cannot send message for 3 days
A Ref: Mathematics and Plausible Reasoning, vol. 1, G. Polya
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: eugene@wilbur.nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya)
Subject: Re: NEW Casio Alto Watch...
Organization: NAS, NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 92 02:31:11 GMT

In article <1992Aug26.162433.12423@news.mentorg.com>
billw@sjc.mentorg.com writes:
>|> Major highlights I can recall are:
>|>   - measures altitude to 6000m (not 4000m)
>|>   - temperatures to -4 deg C
>
>-4 deg C??  That isn't too useful for 6000m peaks (or 4000m peaks for

True as pointed out by a physicist to me: your waist is actually a reasonably
temperature stable environment, but I suspect that this limit is because
it is a LIQUID crystal display.  There comes a temp when liquids cease to
be, but I will reserve judgment on that (I am still awaiting a GPS unit
for testing, that has a 0C limit).  More later, I suspect a set of reports
on this new unit will get posted here or r.b. or somewhere.

--eugene miya, NASA Ames Research Center, eugene@orville.nas.nasa.gov
  Resident Cynic, Rock of Ages Home for Retired Hackers
  {uunet,mailrus,other gateways}!ames!eugene
Second Favorite email message: Returned mail: Cannot send message for 3 days
A Ref: Mathematics and Plausible Reasoning, vol. 1, G. Polya
Newsgroups: rec.climbing,sci.geo.meteorology
From: hank@well.sf.ca.us (Hank Roberts)
Subject: Re: NEW Casio Alto Watch...
Organization: Whole Earth 'Lectronic Link
Distribution: ba
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 01:20:22 GMT


Lots of my hang gliding friends use the original Casio altimiter watch;
main problem is that it only remembers its maximum attained elevation for
one hour unless you poke it to reset the timer.

I may have missed a list of features or comments on the new Casio --
anybody able to advise what's new about it, and where to look for it?
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: bruceb@roadrunner.denver.sgi.com (Bruce Bailey)
Subject: Re: Overhangs
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc.
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 22:08:05 GMT

In article <1992Aug27.212810.26914@nas.nasa.gov>, eugene@wilbur.nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya) writes:
|> In article <1992Aug24.131357.10712@odin.corp.sgi.com>
|> bruceb@roadrunner.denver.sgi.com (Bruce Bailey) writes:
|> I wrote
|> >|> This would make me wonder what Chapman Overhang just outside Camp 4 would
|> >|> be rated.
|> >
|> >How about 5.grease ?
|> 
|> Clearly a man who had made it out from under the chimney/jam crack and has
|> his fingers on the holds/flakes above the lip.
|> 
|> Or else just grabbed them at waist level.
|> 
|> Hey, we need to come up with a grease rating system.
|> 	G0 No grease.
|> 	G1 (La Cosita, right)
|> 	G2 ...
|> 	etc.
|> 

You're really onto something here Eugene!

(having never done La Cosita I may be way off as far as relative
 greasiness in the below ratings...)

The first pitch of La Escuela - G2
  "like trying to layback a buttered elephant"
  "like trying to layback soap"
   ...

Whale's Tail Mantle (Eldo) - G3

Country Club Crack - G2


Bruce Bailey (Dr. OW)
From: eugene@wilbur.nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: Overhangs
Date: 27 Aug 92 21:28:10 GMT
Organization: NAS, NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA

In article <1992Aug24.131357.10712@odin.corp.sgi.com>
bruceb@roadrunner.denver.sgi.com (Bruce Bailey) writes:
I wrote
>|> This would make me wonder what Chapman Overhang just outside Camp 4 would
>|> be rated.
>
>How about 5.grease ?

Clearly a man who had made it out from under the chimney/jam crack and has
his fingers on the holds/flakes above the lip.

Or else just grabbed them at waist level.

Hey, we need to come up with a grease rating system.
	G0 No grease.
	G1 (La Cosita, right)
	G2 ...
	etc.

--eugene miya, NASA Ames Research Center, eugene@orville.nas.nasa.gov
  Resident Cynic, Rock of Ages Home for Retired Hackers
  {uunet,mailrus,other gateways}!ames!eugene
Second Favorite email message: Returned mail: Cannot send message for 3 days
A Ref: Mathematics and Plausible Reasoning, vol. 1, G. Polya
Newsgroups: rec.climbing,sci.geo.meteorology
From: ghill@dot.cs.colorado.edu (Gregory Hill)
Subject: lawn chairs
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 04:49:10 GMT


In article <TIMSC.92Aug31200130@aspen.cfsat.Honeywell.COM> timsc@hwcae.honeywell.com writes:
>
>when we arrived at the base of the climb... alas there was no place
>level enough to fold out our chairs.  These two english fellows
>exclaimed..
>
>"You brought lawn chairs all the way up here?!"
>

>>The one and only time I climbed Avalanche Gulch on Mt. Shasta, my friend and
>>I brought up a lawn chair, a newspaper, and a beach umbrella so we could take
>>entertaining pictures on the summit. 

Reminds me of climbing Maiden rock near boulder, on a july 4th evening, with
lawn chair, icebox, camping gear, etc. etc. etc., in order to sit on the
summit and gaze at fireworks in the valley, while sipping wine, eating good
food, and so on. At least that was the plan. I wish I had a picture of me trying
to lead one of the traverse pitches in total darkness with an icechest under my 
left arm! We summited, and even managed to work in the good food and wine bit, but
were quite a bit late for the fireworks. Igloo ice chests get very high marks with
me ... mine took a 40 foot scraping pendulum on this climb ... and the wine bottles
didn't get broken !


Newsgroups: rec.climbing,sci.geo.meteorology
From: orloff@surya4.cern.ch (Jean Orloff)
Subject: Re: NEW Casio Alto Watch...+Boiling point change
Organization: CERN, European Research Center for Particle Physics
	<1992Aug28.082800.19948@sol.UVic.CA>
	<1992Aug28.194600.12188@colorado.edu>
	<TED.92Aug31201713@pylos.nmsu.edu>
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 11:35:27 GMT

>>>>> On 1 Sep 92 03:17:13 GMT, ted@nmsu.edu (Ted Dunning) said:
Ted> does anybody know a similarly quick way (i.e. in your head) to
Ted> calculate the boiling point of water?

I happen to have worked out the following related problem precisely
yesterday night:

Given the exponential fall-off of pressure as you rise, how fast
should temperature drop in order for a fixed mixture of air and water
vapor to stay on the verge of condensing?
The answer was:
dT(h)/dh=-m.g/(H_L-H_G).T(0)~0.2 deg Centigrade/100m.
  (for T(0)=25 deg Cent)

If you know that adiabatic cooling of air (without water condensing)
gives you
dT(h)/dh=-2/7. m.g/k~0.95 deg Centigrade/100m,
and that water condenses close to the ground during summer nights, you
can easily see that the basis of cumulus formed by (adiabatic)
ascending currents will be at:
75m*(T_day-T_night)
from the ground if they ever form (ascending currents could stopped by
an inversion before reaching the condensation point).

For the water boiling point, I guess you would have to replace T(0) by
100 deg C to get
dT_boiling/dh=0.25 degC/100m,
giving about 80 degC on top of Everest.

Sincerely,
Jean.
--
*************************************************************************
*	Jean Orloff		*	e-mail: ORLOFF@dxcern.cern.ch	*
*	TH-Division, CERN	*	phone:	(41-22) 767-3204	*
*	CH-1211 Geneva 23	*	fax:	(41-22) 782-3914	*
*************************************************************************
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: eugene@wilbur.nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya)
Subject: Re: OLD Casio Alto Watch...
Organization: NAS, NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 92 16:44:41 GMT

>Firstly, I must point out that I have the original Casio Watch and have found
>it to be very acurate,

Sitting in my current office (within close sight of the SF bay, second story)
my watch currently reads 400 Ft altitude.  The watches require a fair degree of
attention (fortunately I work at an airfield and I just call up the Navy
meteorologist and ask for the millibars).  So you should be able to guess
it has been some time since I have reset the thing.  Also I reset the
altitude closer to the area where I use the instrument than down here.

Accuracy: It is barely on the fringes of what I would trust my life to.

>Well, since nobody has an answer, I thought I'd point out my other
>question again. The equations used to predict altitudes depend on pressure,
>temp, humidity, latitude, etc., and I found no quick and simple blurb on how
>important each parameter is.

Latitude?  Well the equations are partially derived by Boyle's gas laws:
	PV = NRT
Check any intro numerical meteorology text.  No latitude component in this.
[I knew we're getting GPS watches soon, but with time on the watch, I could get
latitude and longitude.  Getting latitude would be a trick 8^)]
To get pressure/elevation, check a book, it's not hard.
Stern must be out climbing on vacation otherwise she must be charging for
consulting on atmospheric physics questions. 8^)

>P.S.   What we need is a comprehensive survey of altimeters in Climbing
>       or Rock & Ice. Anyone with connections out there ...

Frank Reid, myself, and others put together several reviews and posted them.
I have the text from this.  Email if you want it. I'll try to locate
the Spectrum article (latitude?  I knew there was a reason why I dropped
my IEEE membership).

--eugene miya, NASA Ames Research Center, eugene@orville.nas.nasa.gov
  Resident Cynic, Rock of Ages Home for Retired Hackers
  {uunet,mailrus,other gateways}!ames!eugene
Second Favorite email message: Returned mail: Cannot send message for 3 days
A Ref: Mathematics and Plausible Reasoning, vol. 1, G. Polya
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: ghill@dot.cs.colorado.edu (Gregory Hill)
Subject: offwidth
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 03:00:29 GMT

>Does a climb deserve the status of "Off-Width" if TRUE O.W. technique is NOT
>required in order to do it?  For example,  "Mainstreet" @ Vedawoo certainly is
>OW, but is the Diving Board in Eldo?  

>I'd like to hear from all the wide crack afficionados out there (i.e. probably
>all three of them...)

well, i like them sometimes (although every now and then one comes along
that convinces me i should never ever do a knee jam again - but, a climber's
memory span is short , i guess) ... so, i guess i'd say that if the "easiest"
way up a line is to climb it offwidth, then it is more of an offwidth climb
than anything else. a lot of climbs that can be offwidth'ed relatively moderately
i'm sure can be face climbed, laybacked, etc. via very difficult (but possibly
less painful, strenuous, etc.) moves. another possibility is to have a 160'
pitch that maybe has 10' of the wide crack that are usually ascended via face/
lieback moves, yet the pitch as a whole is ow, because the rest of the climb
is usually done as an offwidth (i think the crack of fear at lumpy ridge is
supposed to be like this). i was on an offwidth at turkey rocks (s. platte)
last weekend, and there was a section that i found very difficult to offwidth,
until i noticed the ow moves could be augemented with a few key face holds.

anyway, offwidth technique more than anything else in climbing probably does
not ever deserve having words like "true" and "pure" associated with it ... for
me, at least, it is generally a mish mash of every technique that exists,
simultaneously, plus a small selection of body positions that simply cannot be
described as "technique", and definitely do not get described in guidebooks.
From: me@stile.stonemarche.org (Mark Eklof)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: What happened to REI?
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1992 10:46:26 -0400
 <1992Aug20.074706.17446@nas.nasa.gov>
Summary: Vote with more than your wallet!
Distribution: na
Organization: Stonemarche Network Co-op
X-Newsreader: Arn V1.00 alpha rel3

In article <1992Aug20.074706.17446@nas.nasa.gov>, Eugene N. Miya writes:
> majority aren't climbers (this is r.c.).  Influence is, how do you say:
> you "vote" with your pocket book. It is not the tyranny of the majority
> but you might think about influences.

	We do have another area of influence.  Unlike the so-called
wholesale clubs, our membership in REI gives us some say in the
direction, since we are, at least nominally, the owners.  With the
annual dividend cheque comes a ballot for the board of directors.  I
confess that I've generally ignored that, in the past.  However,
having seen the equipment (including speciallised clothing) sections
of REI get smaller, while the (non-speciallised) clothing sections get
larger, particullarly over the past year or so, I won't in the future.
I plan to write to the current board, and express my views.  I
encourage all members to do so.  If enough members express
dissatisfaction, maybe they'll change.  If not, then enough members
could change the composition of the board. 

Mark
-- 
Mark Eklof
Madarch Grange
Brookline, New Hampshire, USA

me@stile.stonemarche.org
From: dmanke@caliban.UVic.CA (Dennis  Manke)
Subject: Re: NEW Casio Alto Watch...
Organization: University of Victoria, Victoria, BC, Canada
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 92 08:28:00 GMT

In article <1992Aug26.084756.1213@sol.UVic.CA> dmanke@active.UVic.CA (Dennis  Manke) writes:
>Major highlights I can recall are: .....
>

Firstly, I must point out that I have the original Casio Watch and have found
it to be very acurate, dispite any wild temp changes. I do however keep it
on my wrist and in very cold conditions it's under a glove or something.
Staff at MEC have also tested them and claim they find the Casio watch
reports an alt within 5m of a top of the line, temp compensated aneroid
altimiter. In one of the more recent (maybe 6 months back) IEEE journals
(possibly the spectrum) they had a article on semiconducter pressure sensors.
I skimmed it & I think they typically had a wide temp operating range,
but I didn't skim it too closely.

Well, since nobody has an answer, I thought I'd point out my other
question again. The equations used to predict altitudes depend on pressure,
temp, humidity, latitude, etc., and I found no quick and simple blurb on how
important each parameter is. I can't find my photocopy of the article & I have
no time to try and find the reference again, but I believe that humidity looked
about as important as temp.

===============
Can anyone out there share shed some light on how important these
parameters are and especially in a semiconducter based altimeter ? ? ? ? ? ?
Perhaps someone who designs these type of things....
===============

My guess at things is that in an aneroid barometer, increased temp will increase
pressure behind the diaphram and change the reading. I suspect that a temp
compensated model only accounts for this change. However, the equations
I was referring to above assume an exact (real) pressure & the temp/humidity
part are taking into account the changes in real pressure due to
changes in the air density caused by these factors. The latitude compensates
for the change in air density due to decreased gravitational influence
(the earth is not round). It's complex, but before the use of airial surveying,
surveyors could not always use line of sight techniques.


P.S.   What we need is a comprehensive survey of altimeters in Climbing
       or Rock & Ice. Anyone with connections out there ...


Dennis        dmanke@sanjuan.uvic.ca
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: uchpcjv@Msu.oscs.montana.edu
Subject: Re: beginner
Reply-To: uchpcjv@Msu.oscs.montana.edu
Organization: Montana State University
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 21:48:56 GMT

In article <bxlnd#q@lynx.unm.edu>, kevo@polaris.unm.edu (kevin lane  smithstonana) writes:
>Sender:  kevo@carina.unm.edu
>Followup-To: 
>Distribution: 
>Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque
>Keywords: 
>
>     I am also a beginner and would also like some information
>
>on this wonderful sport.  I am located in New Mexico though and would like
>
>some info on great places to climb...
>Kevin
Sandias;  
White Rock;  
Datil Tower;
Box Canyon;
Questa Dome;
Cacti Cliffs
El Rito
Penitente Canyon (4 hrs. from Albuqueque in S. Colo.)
The Organs (see Ted Dunning's brain-dump in Rock and Ice magazine)

Sandia Mtn. Outfitters/REI are good source of guides, info..


>
>
Newsgroups: rec.climbing