From: makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky)
Subject: Re: Autopsy - Kahane and Rosenbaum
Reply-To: makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky)
Organization: Arizona State University, Tempe AZ
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1992 05:29:49 GMT

In article <dfs.725166573@kehleyr> dfs@doe.carleton.ca (David F. Skoll) writes:

# In <1992Dec24.003717.5186@bony1.bony.com> jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake
# Livni) writes:
 
# >>Jake, let's get this straight once and for all: YOU brought up the
# >>comparison, not me.  And my response to YOUR raising of the issue was
# >>that Kahane's policies have similarities to those of Muslim
# >>Fundamentalists.
 
# >And they have differences, as well.  The differences far outweigh any
# >similarities.  There is simply no comparison between an extremist like
# >Kahane and even the so-called moderates in the Arab world, not to
# >mention the tyrants and terrorists.
 
# You can't say there is "no" comparison, when I have shown that there
# are several points of comparison.

	You did reaal make the case of compasrions, and the only ones you
could come close with are sort of like "they both get out of bed in
the mornong".

# [Kahane and Arabs]
# >>No, he just proposed kicking them out or stripping them of civil
# >>rights.  He magnanimously gave them the choice between the two.
 
# >Incorrect.  He offered them the option of living in Israel according
# >to the rules of behavior that are accepted in Israel
 
# That is untrue.  He offered them the option of living in Israel with
# no right to vote, no right to form political parties, and no rights
# to decide their future.  Those are not the rules of behaviour currently
# accepted in Israel; they are the rules of behaviour which Kahane wanted
# to impose.  There's a big difference.

	One true point by Skoll.  However, it is not just Rabbi Meir
Kahane (HY"D) that wanted to impose them.  Jewish law, as well as
Israeli survival, mandate it.

# >or of going to an
# >Arab state where they would be free to behave in a manner more
# >acceptable in Arab society.
 
# >>He never gained power.  Remember, power corrupts... while Saddam was a
# >>nobody, he also didn't go around threatening people.  He bided his time.
 
# >Incorrect.  Saddam Hussein wasn't voted into office.  He took it by
# >force, personally killing many people along the way.  Kahane did, in
# >fact, gain power; he was elected into it.
 
# The power which Kahane gained was negligible in comparison to Saddam's
# power.

	The Rabbi was about to get a lot of power.  All of the polls had
him surging, despite the attempts to censor him.  He had tremendous
popularity among Israeli high school students as well as wide spread
support in the IDF.  The so called "democracy classes" (which were
nothing more than anti - Kach propaganda) orgainzed in the IDF shortly
after Kach gained a seat in the Knesset is proof of that.

# And we even saw Kahane abusing the little power he had - remember,
# he claimed parliamentary immunity in order to get away with some pretty
# inflammatory things, including conducting marches into Arab towns.

	There was no abuse here.  Immunity is something all MK's have.
And it was virtually the only way for Kach to get its voice out since
the government was always shutting them up.

# >>He never gained power.

# >The leader of a political party who is a Member of Knesset makes for
# >an odd example of someone who "never gained power".

# >David, you are simply trying to wheedle your way out of comparing
# >Kahane to some of the worst tyrants in the Arab world.  You're just
# >plain wrong.  One doesn't have to be a Kach-nik to see this.
 
# Well, to quote someone on soc.culture.jewish:  You're entitled to
# your opinion, Jake.  Even if you're wrong. :-)

	What are you talking about?  A couple paragraphs above you mention
"the little power he had".

# >>Fine, you're entitled to your opinion.  I don't demonize Kahane; I just
# >>state the fact that his policies are (1) racist and (2) extremely dangerous
# >>to the survival of Israel.
 
# >You've stated them but have not substantiated them at all.

# I have shown that, under any reasonable definition of racism, the
# Kach platform is racist.  I did it in article <dfs.721347698@ro>, which
# I will e-mail to Jake or repost, according to his choice.

	You never showed this, and in fact I demonstrated that your
article did not show this.  Please repost your article.  While I do
not have my original response, I will have no problem demolishing your
argument again.

# I also showed that there is great precedence for danger to Israel
# if a program of "ethnic cleansing" (which is what Kach proposes)
# is carried out.  We only have to look at the international reaction
# to Yugoslavia to see that.

	Well, "ethnic cleansing" may promote a danger to Israel.
Fortunately that is NOT what Kach proposed, your lie above
notwithstanding.

# >You haven't shown that removing trouble-makers from inside Israel will
# >make things worse, as you assert again.
 
# Note Jake's switch:  I was talking about expulsion of Arabs, and
# he is talking about expulsion of trouble-makers.  Thus, he has set up
# a straw man, which is not worth responding to.

	But the only Arabs that will be expelled are the ones who are the
trouble makers.  You are being dishonest Mr. Skoll.

# >In fact, the recent expulsion
# >orders by the fairly Left-Wing Israeli government seems to reject your
# >arguments, too.
 
# Well, let's wait and see what happens.  I certainly have no sympathy
# for Hamas, but the political ramifications of the Israeli Government's
# move have yet to be determined.

	So, are you for or against them?
--
	There are three types of people in the world.  Those that are good
at math and those that are not.

makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish