From: dp
Subject: Re: Sexuality
Organization: Texas Instruments
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 16:58:59 GMT

In article <1993Jan01.213023.3143@jcnpc.cmhnet.org>, mam@jcnpc.cmhnet.org (Mike A. McAngus) writes:
|> [crossposting to alt.politics.bush and alt.politics.clinton deleted]
|> 
|> rodney james freier (freier@mail.physics.utah.edu) wrote:
|> : In article <1hvjgsINNah5@hp-col.col.hp.com>, smithw@col.hp.com (Walter Smith)
|>  writes:
|> : |> fritzs@microsoft.com (Fritz Sands) writes:
|> : |> > First, the country was not founded on Christian values -- it was deliber
|> ately
|> : |> > set up as a secular society, in order to not have the religious wars
|> : |> > and persecutions common in Europe.
|> : |> 
|> : |> Partially right; it was set up to not have a state church, but it 
|> : |> was also largely based on what can be called 'Christian values'.
|> : |> 
|> : |> Walter
|> : |> 
|> :     Careful.  Better make that Deist values.  Most of our founding
|> : fathers were not Christian.
|> : 
|> 
|> Careful.  From research that I did to respond to a similar argument on a local 
|> BBS, I found that 51 of the 55 signers of the Declaration of Independence were 
|> Protestants.  Of the 39 signers of the Constitution, the only information I 
|> could find was that 2 were Roman Catholics and Ben Franklin was a Deist.

You might also be well served to read the record of the Constitutional
Convention.  Be sure to read the discussions that our founding fathers had
regarding James Madison's recommendation that a declaration that the US is/was
a nation founded on Christian principles.  You will discover that the words
"state religion" had the conotation of "state Christian denomination".  (This
can be confirmed by reading the state constitutions that many of these same
men wrote which contained both the language of the first amendment
{actually the third amendment when the Bill of Rights was submitted to the
states - the first two amendments were rejected by the states.) and the
requirement that those serving in public office swear that they were
Christians.)  I remind you that because of the requirements of the state
constitutions, that there was great discussion of whether or not Jefferson was
a Christian during his campaign for the US Presidency.  (This was not just a
prejudicial discussion, but rather one of his meeting the state's
requirements - i.e., could the members of the state's electorial body legally
vote for him.)

All of the quotes presented to argue against the US founding fathers not being
Chrisitans or not founding this nation on Christian principles are 1) taken
out of context (usually either not refering to Christianity as a whole, but to
one or more denominations instead, or to statements pointing out the
absurdity of claiming that this nation was not founded upon Christian
principles via antithetic overstatement); 2) are not from the founding
fathers, but from those either on the sidelines or from later generations.
Jefferson is often quoted as if he wrote the US Constitution and the Bill of
Rights.  (Even the US Supreme Court was guilty of this in 1941 when they linked
the first and fourteenth amendments, effectively giving the Supreme Court the
power to usurp any of the states' rights that they get the urge to.)  Might I
remind you that Jefferson was in Europe when both the Constitution and the
Bill of Rights were written.  I might also remind you that the term
"seperation of chruch and state" originated with the Danbury Baptists and that
Jefferson used the phrase in writting a letter to them to encourage them that
there were no plans for the federal government to interfer in their
denomination. Hmmmmm.... using the phrase "seperation of church and state"
must be promoting the religion of those Danbury Baptists. . .

BTW, WRT Franklin being a Deist.  That was his claim, but a true deist would
not have scolded the Continental Congress for its failure to pray to God for
guidance as these men had done during the US Revolution.  It was Franklin who
called the Congress its the daily prayer that continues to this day.

The Supreme Court has determined that it is "promotion of religion" to teach
these facts in the public schools, so they are omitted.  The trouble with
telling only part of the story is that it can and, in this instance
does, produce a lie.

FWIW. . .

***  The opinions are mine and do not necessarily represent those of my  ***
***  employer.                                                           ***

|> -- 
|> Mike McAngus                    |You are a fluke of the Universe.  You have no 
|> mam@jcnpc.cmhnet.org            |right to be here, and whether you can hear it
|> The Truth is still the Truth    |or not the Universe is laughing behind your 
|> Even if you choose to ignore it.|back.  -- National Lampoon, Deteriorata
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