HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: tom@soda.berkeley.edu (Tom Holub)
Newsgroups: rec.games.netrek
Subject: Re: Scrimmages
Date: 24 Nov 1992 04:39:46 GMT
Organization: U.C. Berkeley, CS Undergraduate Association
NNTP-Posting-Host: soda.berkeley.edu

In article <By6sC5.D5K.1@cs.cmu.edu> hde+@cs.cmu.edu (Herbert Enderton) writes:
)
)I agree, and reading this I find it hard to see why anyone would
)prefer an INL game over a scrimmage game.  How about we just play
)lots of scrimmage games, but have somebody tabulate the results?  No
)need for an organized tournament, we can just argue about who's best
)based on the scrimmages.  Well, okay, we probably want to have the
)INL tournament in addition.

I like both scrimmages and INL games; I wouldn't like either
to go away.  There are times when you don't want to play a serious
game, but games like the recent GB vs. Xgolems are on a different
plane of existance.
  
)But random scheduling is very unfair, as we have seen this season.

Random scheduling *can be* unfair.

)I also think Streaker's idea of having regular weekly game times has
)merit.  Anything we can do to ease the pain of scheduling games is a
)good thing.  Maybe some teams won't be able to play on Saturdays, but
)if they announce some other times and days of the week on which they
)will accept any challenge, that'd be good.  While we're at it,
)let's clamp down on late starts and frivilous pauses.

I don't know of anyone who is interested in doing a schedule for 200
players from 30-40 colleges, universities, and offices in 3 different
time zones.  I know I'm not.  I also don't want anyone to tell me
when to play my games; the same time every week is not acceptable.

)P.S.  Is the INL next season going to allow subs who aren't on
)any official roster to play for several teams during the course
)of the season?  Maybe I'll be a mercenary.  How about players who
)quit one team and join another, is that allowed?

Under the rules, it is allowable for a non-roster player to play on
several different teams during the course of the season, but I 
personally feel this violates the spirit of team play.  You are allowed
to quit one team and join another, although perhaps we'll set a 
'trade deadline' 1 week before the playoffs or something.
 -Tom
From: echeverr@scf.usc.edu (5150)
Newsgroups: rec.games.netrek
Subject: Re: New INL scheduling proposal:(long..please read this, however)
Date: 23 Nov 1992 19:09:58 -0800
Organization: <censored>
NNTP-Posting-Host: girtab.usc.edu

In article <By6vCq.J8K.2@cs.cmu.edu> hill@norman.vi.ri.cmu.edu writes:
>Bill Bathurst writes:
>> To say we have been negligent here would be false. 
>I don't believe so.  I think we have done a poor job at communicating what  
>we are doing.  Currently, we are doing nothing, however, so there's  
>nothing to report.

Baloney.  You can always report that you're doing nothing.

5150
what?  a smiley?  oh alright there you go :-) don't wear it out
Newsgroups: rec.games.netrek
Subject: Re: more:  ladder proposal and kevin's flame
From: hill@norman.VI.RI.CMU.EDU (Robert Hill)
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 22:24:45 GMT
Reply-To: hill@norman.vi.ri.cmu.edu
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon

Bill Bathurst writes
> Kevin is usually off base.  He is a fouth space scum.  His idea of 
> helping people get better is by ridiculing them via messages to ALL.  He 
> has no respect in my book.

hehe...he scummed 4th space on you one time (probably the only time he has  
ever done it) and you call him 4th space scum?  You have no respect for  
him simply because of this?

> I think it is more like 95% (b) and 5% (c) where he thinks CMU is being
> egocentrical.  That is my interpretation.

More like 95%, 5%.  I've never, ever seen tom back a CMU-originated  
proposal, whether UDP, season length, playoff, unknown planet setup, or  
anything else.

> I have had a difficult time trying to figure out a fair way to make the 
> ladder work.  There are a lot of problems with it.  I have worked with 
> Rob on trying to figure it out.  I think it has to be more defined 
> before it will fly.

Ok..name the problems.  Everyone says a ladder has alot of problems and  
that it needs alot of work.  List those problems, so people can work on  
them.  It CERTAINLY has to be much more defined before it will work.  That  
was my reason for getting rec.games.netrek input.  What problems do you  
see?

> I am personally in favor of the longer schedule, teams being ranked and 
> scheduling based on rank.  I just thought I would give Rob the benefit 
>the doubt since have played a scheduled league so far.  
How can we have a longer schedule?  I found it to be rather difficult to  
schedule games as it is.  More games in (just about) the same time?   
Scheduling based on rank leads to the problem of how do we rank the teams?   
I'm in favor of any proposal over the current one.  If issues like these  
can be resolved, i'd go for that too.

>Hopefully people 
>will give meaningfull suggestions instead of lousy, abusive flames that 
>do little good in getting the job/issue settled.

I hope you cc'ed this to tom.  Lets all hope Holubism doesn't strike  
again...

> Azusa
Rob
aka Spaceace!
From: trown@ecst.csuchico.edu (Nick Trown)
Newsgroups: rec.games.netrek
Subject: Re: Whatever happened to? Minimal clue server?
Date: 18 Nov 92 08:58:16 GMT
Organization: California State University, Chico
NNTP-Posting-Host: hairball.ecst.csuchico.edu

In article <1ecpclINN1v1@agate.berkeley.edu> jmn@crown.berkeley.edu (J. Mark Noworolski) writes:
>I recall somebody proposing here some mods to the server to assure that the
>twinks playing AT LEAST read messages and booting them otherwise...
>
>Somebody had suggested something like:
>GOD-> R3 > Are you a twink? Send 'no' to yourself to keep playing in < 30sec
>R3-> R3 > no
>GOD-> R3 > Welcome aboard!
>
>Otherwise the twink gets ejected after 30 seconds....
>
>Anybody worked on this at all?
>Passing Wind 
>(on a particularly clueless evening)

Well it is funny you should ask. I have just completed the modifications on
guzzler to do just this. It basically works by sending this:


GOD->YOU This is a clue player hour.
GOD->YOU To stay in the game you need to return the string:
GOD->YOU clue:Earth

When you return the string clue:Earth you are then allowed to stay on.
You get approx. 1 minute to answer or else boom you're gone. I can set up
any time or day for this. I was leaning towards thursdays being clue nights
for guzzler. If it is successful I may increase the number of days for 
clueful playing. I'll set it up this way and see what kinda response I get.
If you want to play you have to have a RSA client. The address for guzzler
is on the metaserver but here it is anyway.

Address: guzzler.ecst.csuchico.edu
Port: 5858


Nick Trown
Netherworld
Server God of Guzzler.
Newsgroups: rec.games.netrek
From: jch+@cs.cmu.edu (Jonathan Hardwick)
Subject: Re: THERE IS NO NEED FOR CRYPT OF RSA CLIENTS!!!!!!!!!
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1992 15:23:24 GMT

polk@Metaphor.COM (Ben Polk) writes
> The US crypt export restrictions DO NOT apply to use of methods like
> RSA for validation purposes.  The restrictions ONLY apply for uses where 
> the user can encrypt arbitrary data.
> 
> This means the client executables can be freely distributed outside the 
> USA, as long as the only use of RSA is validating access to servers.

Coolness.  I assume this also mean I can tell my evil American twin
Skippy to get the hell off my workstation and let me play with that
RSA executable instead? 

> Get rid of the encryption of the RSA client executables!

Awwww.  Now the Brummies won't have anything to whine about...  :-)

Spaceman Spiff
Newsgroups: rec.games.netrek
From: ahabig@bigbang.astro.indiana.edu (Alec Habig)
Subject: Re: RSA support routines (was Re: RSA)
Organization: Indiana University Astrophysics, Bloomington, IN
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1992 16:50:42 GMT

In article <68QE03gzbcQl00@amdahl.uts.amdahl.com> fadden@uts.amdahl.com (Andy McFadden) writes:
>I've about had it with the whining.  We aren't stopping you; quit bitching
>and do something for a change.
>>We can compile an RSA equivelent here and then you can use that. With the same
>>end; stopping those Borgs. WHY USE RSA WHICH LIMITS THE PEOPLE THAT PLAY?
>
>Fine.  Do it.  Here's everything I can legally give you (does not include
>the RSA utils or the key generator, but it does have the key manager and
>the standard test key, which all servers will continue to support for a
>little while).
>
>Now put up or shut up.

Great.  Thanks - now we can.

Before we couldn't - a part of what the "whining" was about was a simple
request for this information.  Now that this stuff is available, we can get on
with such work.

	Thank you,
	Alec
From: hill@norman.VI.RI.CMU.EDU (Robert Hill)
Newsgroups: rec.games.netrek
Subject: more:  ladder proposal and kevin's flame
Date: 23 Nov 92 18:34:55 GMT
Reply-To: hill@norman.vi.ri.cmu.edu
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon

Kevin writes
> Greetings all,
> [ flame of inlcouncil deleted for space]
> *Flame Off*

Most of this is quite factual.  Very few INL council votes have been  
discussed on rec.games.netrek before the vote.  I hope to change that.

You were off on some things.  The inl council isn't polarized into a  
UCB/CMU debate camp.  Some things I side with tom on...some things I do  
not.  Everyone on the council pretty much has their own opinions.   
However, any proposal that I have made has caused strict oppostion from  
tom regardless of what it is.  I think that either a)  he thinks that I am  
dumb b)  he genuinely disagrees with the (admittedly few) proposals that I  
have made or c)  he has some anti-cmu histeria which forces him to be  
paranoid about how CMU teams can get ahead by my proposal.  I honestly  
think it is c, and i'm pretty sick of it.

> people?  You may miss things or not think of alternatives.  I'm not 
> gov. and throw your weight around to try to change it.  I personally 

I don't think that we miss much.  Perhaps discussion should be made about  
who is on the INL council?  Feel free to post who you feel should comprise  
the council.  It *IS* about time we set up some guidelines on who is on  
it.  Please distinguish that thread from this one.

PLEASE understand that this thread is not about tom, kevin, me, the  
inlcouncil or anyone else.  The idea of this thread is to determine  
whether or not people out there think that a ladder system is workable.  I  
encourage all of you to post about it.  If you agree, please list possible  
solutions to stated problems.  If you disagree, say why you disagree.

Rob
aka Spaceace!
Newsgroups: rec.games.netrek
From: jasonp@sunbabe.Prime.COM (Jason Pascucci)
Subject: Db deletion and Scums
Organization: ComputerVision Services
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 06:16:08 GMT

I was wondering...when you delete a character, for example
a tmode scum, from the player file, do the other stats
get recalculated? On someplace like Bronco, this would
be in the noise, but it might have an impact on
someplace like Patriot. 

I wonder if there is some more interesting way of dealing
with old stats...like playing off your stats against,
instead of a global mean, against the mean for the
last month or two. It would make rank a little more fluid,
perhaps, as clue increases and decreases throughout
the year.

Just a thought....

--
Jason R. Pascucci
jasonp@primerd.prime.com
Newsgroups: rec.games.netrek
From: esj@cs.brown.edu (Eugene Santos Jr.)
Subject: NBR proposal: Another gimmic to help the clueless newbie
Organization: Brown University Department of Computer Science
Distribution: na
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 05:28:48 GMT

Purpose - To draw newbies attention to any possible important incoming
	message.

Proposal - Introduce the following remote client capability:
	R4 --> R3	VIM: <this is a very important message>
	<R3 now gets some sort of audio beep/signal>
	[Highlighted line] R3 --> R4 <this is a very important message>

	To avoid abuse, you can set an ignore flag on the abusing playing
	in general, or simply introduce a second level of ignore
	very important messages. Those who have figured out how to
	set the second ignore should be clueful already (like set in
	.xtrekrc) or are just plain clueless-eternal(tm).

	I often get a very very late message from a newbie apologizing
	for doing something I suggested he not do way way after the fact
	because they just only saw the message.


Flt. Captain "My planets are inconveniently immobile defensive problems
	but yours are big fat targets that can't run away." Limofel

uucp:	...!{ihnp4,decvax}!brunix!esj		Eugene Santos Jr.
bitnet:	esj@browncs.bitnet			PO Box 1910, Computer Science
arpa:	esj%cs.brown.edu@relay.cs.net		Brown University
csnet:	esj@cs.brown.edu			Providence, RI 02912
From: mehlhaff@soda.berkeley.edu (ERic MeHlHaFf)
Newsgroups: rec.games.netrek
Subject: Re: Whatever happened to? Minimal clue server?
Date: 18 Nov 1992 12:09:05 GMT
Organization: The Dis-Orginization
NNTP-Posting-Host: soda.berkeley.edu

In article <1ed0j8INN85h@charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu> trown@ecst.csuchico.edu (Nick Trown) writes:
>In article <1ecpclINN1v1@agate.berkeley.edu> jmn@crown.berkeley.edu (J. Mark Noworolski) writes:
>>Somebody had suggested something like:
>>GOD-> R3 > Are you a twink? Send 'no' to yourself to keep playing in < 30sec
>>R3-> R3 > no
>>GOD-> R3 > Welcome aboard!
>>
>>Otherwise the twink gets ejected after 30 seconds....
>
>Well it is funny you should ask. I have just completed the modifications on
>guzzler to do just this. It basically works by sending this:
>
[ message/response stuff deleted]

I don't suppose you thought of sending the player a warning of the effect
"Captain, there's an important messge" and similar warnings that change with time, 
sort of like what you get when self-destructing.  Keeping the Trek flavor
alive, after all, is a good thing.

-- 
ERic mehlhaff					   mehlhaff@soda.Berzerkeley.EDU
mehlhaff@ocf.berkeley.EDU         "Life? Don't talk to me about life..." -Marvin
From: jwh@cs.bham.ac.uk (James "wibble" Hawtin)
Newsgroups: rec.games.netrek
Subject: Non US? Want an RSA server?
Date: 23 Nov 92 16:55:22 GMT
Reply-To: jwh@cs.bham.ac.uk
Organization: School of Computer Science, The University of Birmingham, UK

Mail me and I will post you it.

Only non US people please :-)



				James.
Newsgroups: rec.games.netrek
From: markiel@callisto.pas.rochester.edu (Andrew Markiel)
Subject: Re: NBR Proposal: Remotely Induced Message Windows
Organization: U(r) AstroTheory Group
Distribution: na
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 92 04:10:41 GMT

A lot of people have responded to this, but none have expressed my
objection to this proposal (and variations on the same idea). I usually
like playing with people who are interested in playing to win, and I
imagine that many other people do too, but I don't think that there is
anything inherent in netrek that requires players to work with each
other, or play only to try to win. Even I don't do this all the time:
sometimes I ratio scum for a while, or try to see how many enemies I
can take on at once. I don't think it's reasonable at all to try to
force all netrek players to play a particular way, or for a particular
goal. It's a game that people can play any way they want.

Now, I'm all in favor of proposals that make it more likely for new
players to play in a team sense (for example, message windows open by
default). And I'm in favor of server mods (for example, the send message
or get kicked out mod) that require people to do certain things to
play *on a particular server, at a particular time*. After all, it's
the server god's machine, and he can create any game he wants to: this
does not require anyone to play on his server. But I would not agree to
a similar mod which was client and not server side: the client should
be a command interface only, not a set of rules.

-Grey Elf

P.S. IMHO, of course.
From: polk@Metaphor.COM (Ben Polk)
Newsgroups: rec.games.netrek
Subject: Re: GB at LAR
Date: 19 Nov 92 19:04:47 GMT
Reply-To: polk@Metaphor.COM (Ben Polk)
Organization: m4

The TWNN vs LAR game at ksu.inl.edu did not seem to be
plagued with lag.  The LAR players were getting phasor
locks and doing other things you can only do without
too much lag.  They may have been xhosted all over creation,
but it didn't seem to hurt them much.  I think the players on
both sides agreed it was a very fun game.  Don't try to compare
that game with the GB vs LAR game.

Ben Polk

PS Ack! How did I get resubscribed to this newsgroup! Help me Ray!
Newsgroups: rec.games.netrek
From: JGR@ECLX.PSU.EDU (Jim Reisman)
Subject: Re: INHL NetHockey Survey: (Hockey Players, Please Read)
Organization: Penn State Engineering Computer Lab
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 92 03:34:32 GMT
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.24

I wrote: 
> PROPOSAL H:   Institute a Pause command.
> Required Mod: Some work required. Requires designated captains.
> Why against:  This was Red Shirt's suggestion. I feel that unnecessary
                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    Dang! What I meant to say is that Red Shirt suggested that there
NOT be a pause option. Sorry.

>               pausing has caused INL games to extend into 3-3.5 hr
>               dreary affairs. Since each team can have up to three
>               substitutes, there is no real reason to have a pause.
>               Hockey should be a fast, exciting, informal one hour 
>               game. 

Jim R.

Newsgroups: rec.games.netrek
From: artc@iplmail.orl.mmc.com (Art)
Subject: what happen to netrek.atd.ucar.edu ???
Organization: Martin Marietta
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 15:10:47 GMT

Can anyone get into netrek.atd.ucar.edu ?????
why is it always on queue??????
anyone???


thanks
Art
From: mcp@cs.umd.edu (Mike Polek)
Newsgroups: rec.games.netrek
Subject: Re: where to find "crypt" utility?
Date: 23 Nov 92 18:33:46 GMT

Don't sweat this issue. As soon as Tod gets a chance, all clients
will be decrypted. Client distribution will become simple again.
Let's kill this thread!  :)

Mike Polek
<mcp@cs.umd.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.games.netrek
From: von@cory.Berkeley.EDU (Steve Von Worley)
Subject: Re: GB at LAR
Organization: University of California, at Berkeley
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 02:42:45 GMT

In article <1ec8h0INNhkh@skat.usc.edu> echeverr@scf.usc.edu (5150) writes:
>In article <Asdgoaihsdgoihwg@xcf> blojo@xcf.berkeley.edu (Jon Blow) writes:
>>5150 writes:
>>> Utter bullshit.  Any USC team has to deal with the exact same kind of lag
>>> playing outside of Southern Cal.  We will play our games at calvin because
>>> it's the only advantage we can get. . .
>
>>So what you're saying is that you have the right to ruin other teams'
>>records just because you have a consistently lame connection.
>
>So what you're saying is that we must resign ourselves to ruin our record
>just because we have a consistently lame connection.
>
>Gawd, you Berkeley people must be really pissed at us twink Trojans for beating
>you.  Your whining is getting worse than Exodus' over the Hell Bagel's game.
>I'm sure you'd rather we played all our games away to make it 'fair'.
>
>Let me put it this way:  We are cursed with a loser Cisco router somewhere up
>the CERFnet.  We don't know where it is.  We can't fix it as it is not ours.
>We deal with it.  So should you.

There is no reason the teams in the INL should have to deal with playing
on a server which has a shitty connection to the outside world.  
Considering your pompous attitude and your statement that you would use
bad lag as a means of advancement, I would be happy if USC was
banned from playing in the INL unless they ran their home server on some 
machine which was connected to the net in a decent manner.

Doubt it will happen, but if you keep blurting like you have been, you
never know!

[Note:  I do not play for the Golden Bears and I am in no way associated
with them.]

>5150
>enough said

Sandia - Bloated Cow - Stress Puppy - SCUM
-- 
Steve Von Worley
von@cory.berkeley.edu
Computer Science Gradual Student
University of California at Berzerkly
From: blojo@xcf.berkeley.edu (Jon Blow)
Newsgroups: rec.games.netrek
Subject: Felix Flamage
Date: 16 Nov 1992 09:55:36 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: sting.berkeley.edu

Felix rants:

> What in particular about writing some X11 code mandates that other
> people are wrong when they want to play at a reasonable time?
> Where is it written that being chi, or being for that matter Hell
> Peacock, gives special claim to netrek, which was written
> by people they probably don't even know. . .

Please learn to read.  My post basically said that it was pompous and
silly to tell the people who wrote a game and gave it exposure to the
outside world to "find a new game to play."

And oh, xcf == scam == the scam of scott@scam, one of the netrek authors,
whom I know quite well.  I can't claim to know Kevin, though.

> netrek is based on xtrek is based on empire. . .

I'm not attempting to disclaim anything like this.  I find your replies
irritating because it seems to me that you attempt to build flames by
first deciding that the person you are flaming is absolutely wrong,
and then picking out ways by which you might show them to be wrong, no
matter how much you are distorting their words.  It becomes very tiresome
very fast.

  -Jon (Hell Peacock)
Newsgroups: rec.games.netrek
From: genie@netcom.com (Gene Choi)
Subject: Re: GB at LAR
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 23:31:53 GMT

In article <1992Nov17.194952.26562@cs.ucla.edu> jsin@oahu.cs.ucla.edu (Jonghoon Sin) writes:
>In article <1e9slvINNgfr@agate.berkeley.edu> tom@soda.berkeley.edu (Tom Holub) writes:
>> I think LA Riot deserved most of the acrimonious
>>comments; to play a game on calvin when other servers are available
>>is intentionally taking unfair advantage of the home field.
>> -Tom
>
>Why does LAR deserve acrimonius comments simply because calvin is lagged?
>
>As Hadley said, there were several INL games played on calvin all these
>months but no one complained seriously about the lag.  So the first game 

	Do I have to explain myself again?  Lag was shit.  The pits.
	Never seen packet loss like it ever before.
	The net was SHIT.  Read it again.  Shit.  I've played Calvin
	in my times, but it was never this bad.  The net to UCLA's
	game was 10x better.

>
>If what I heard was correct, GB would not show up for the game if LAR 
>played on calvin for the re-match.  So LAR took the time and effort to 
>setup a UCLA server and drove here to accommodate the GBs!  LAR could 
>have taken the forfeit from GBs but elected to give you a fair(er) shot.
>
>If that doesn't deserve an award in the "nice guys" department, I don't
>know what does.  
>
>You can flame calvin all you want, but remember there are people playing in
>LAR.  I know or have met most of them, and they are nice folks who don't 
>deserve anything less than a "thank you" from the GBs.

	Thank you.

	And a special thank you for dealing with the shitty
	ghostbusts.

	However, I'm personally satisfied that we beat LAR when
	they played from machines in the local net, while missing
	Amazing (he was to some dance), and a non-member subbing
	because we didn't have enough players.

Gene
From: trown@ecst.csuchico.edu (Nick Trown)
Newsgroups: rec.games.netrek
Subject: Re: Whatever happened to? Minimal clue server?
Date: 18 Nov 92 18:49:17 GMT
Organization: California State University, Chico
NNTP-Posting-Host: hairball.ecst.csuchico.edu

In article <1992Nov18.130300.1792@cis.ohio-state.edu> amueller@beech.cis.ohio-state.edu (andrew j mueller) writes:
>	< deleted stuff from Passing Wind >
>>
>>
>>Address: guzzler.ecst.csuchico.edu
>>Port: 5858
>>
>>
>
>	to whom do you send this string ????   R2->GOD  ????????

<lots of stuff deleted>

It doesn't matter at this point who you send the string too. The server just
looks for a message starting with "clue:" and if the whole string is right
then it accepts you. However, since these are for clueful people you probably
want to send it to yourself since doing it any other way shows the message to
other players...

			--Nick

PS I Like Eric Melhaff's idea about sending a warning. I will implement that
   also..