From: nadeem@bobcat.ent.ohiou.edu (Mohammed Nadeem  ISE-GRAD)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.indian
Subject: Re: RAMAJANAM BHUMI: AYODHYA-New Archaeological Discoveries
Date: 11 Nov 92 00:22:16 GMT
Organization: College of Engg. & Tech., Ohio University, Athens, Ohio


	In response to
> Article: 123077 of soc.culture.indian
> From: bhatnagr@ucunix.san.uc.edu (Raj Bhatnagar)
> 
> 
> Mohammad Nadeem writes :
> 
> >	May I add that what Rajib said, perfectly makes sense.  It is
> >	high time that we Indians forget about being Hindu, Muslims,
> >        Sikh, Christian, etc. and march towards progress.  
> 
>       Yes, a very sensible and most desirable thing to do. I fully agree
>       with this sentiment of yours. However, the problem with the single
>       minded pursuit of progress is that every once in a while politics
>       is played in the name of religion based separatism and a partition
>       of India is sought by the fanatics of the religion, resulting in the
>       murder, eviction, and displacement of those citizens who were doing
>       nothing else but single mindedly pursuing their economic betterment.

	I agree with you on this point.
> 
>       I have met a few Hindu families from Kashmir. They were busy
>       running businesses and making money for themselves all these 
>       years, and had not dreamt that they will be evicted like this 
>       from their homes because of their religion. 

	Same here.  No one has any right to drive anyone out of one's
	home.
> 
>       Same thing about Hindus who came from Pakistan in 1947.
>       Some commission (Radcliffe?) was hearing the case for Lahore's
>       future just before partition. The case for India, by Hindus, was
>       presented for 7+ hours by a few attorneys who argued that most of
>       the agriculture, industry, and business are owned by, operated by,
>       and have been built by the Hindus over their generations and they 
>       must not be displaced by giving Lahore to Pakistan. Pakistan's case
>       was presented in less than 30 minutes by (I forget his name?) a
>       Pakistan supporting Muslim, with the major argument that the Muslims 
>       are in a majority and hence Lahore must go to Pakistan. And Lahore 
>       went to Pakistan and those who were busy in economic pursuits became
>       beggers and got kicked from their homes.

	I think people from both sides lost during partition.
> 
>       An exactly same version of History can be told for the continuous 
>       flow of Hindus into India from Bangla Desh.  
> 
>       And similar politics is being sensed by many Indians in the Northeast,
>       in Kerala, and in West Bebgal where Muslims majority districts are
>       coming up because of Bangladeshi migrations. The fears of Muslims
>       majority districts seeking secession, tomorrow if not today, are not
>       completely unfounded given the history of India during last 50 years,
>       Pakistan's attitudes, and the resurgence in Islamic fundamentalism
>       all over the world.
> 
>       Therefore, the people who were following exactly what you say, that
>       is they were pursuing their economic betterment, got a boot because
>       they did not play the politics of religion imposed upon them. It is
>       these people who are now most determined to teach India the lesson that
        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>       in addition to economic pursuits, playing of relevant politics for
>       survival is equally important. You may know that Malkani, Advani, Madhok,
>       K N Sahni - the BJP stalwarts - are all 1947 refugees from Pakistan.
> 
>       No, their's or RJB movement's objective is not
>       to throw anybody out of India, but those Hindus who have suffered by
                                           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>       the religious politics at least once are completely determined to drive

	If I am not wrong, you were probably born before partition like
	many others ( a few of them mentioned by you) and still have a
	bitterness of partition.  This feeling is very similar to those
	Americans' who witnessed WW II or the Vietnam war.  But the
	generation who has not gone through those times, can not and
	will not understand and share those sentiments.  I was born
	after the partition and grew up in India in an environment where
	I had hindu friends, muslim friends, and so on.  My friends and
	I never ever felt anything different.  Even today, the commoner,
	the man out on the street does not care if his friend is hindu
	or muslim.  I hope you are not professing that these communities
	should look at each other cynically and never trust the other.  I
	think that times are changing, as literacy rate increases in India,
	people tend to divert their attentions towards economic betterment.
	And lets not forget: A strong economy is the key to success for any
	nation.  Look at the examples of Japan and Germany, smaller
	examples of Korea and Malaysia.

>       home this point very hard that no such politics will be allowed again.
>       The undrlying philosophy of this separatist politics is twofold - one
>       that Islam exhorts Muslims to seek and create Islamic states, and two,
>       that India was "once" ruled by Muslims and today's Muslims are somehow
>       obligated to restore that empire in India which the British took away 
>       from them.

	I completely disagree with this point.  Islam never exhorts muslims
	to seek and create Islamic states everywhere.  Islam promotes
	patriotism even if the ruling state is non-islamic and muslims
	should abide by the rule.
		As far as your second point is concerned, let me tell
	you that most muslims that I know of, don't consider the Mughal
	Raj as Islamic Raj.  Most of the Mughal rulers were bad examples
	of Islam. Especially the orthodox muslims, if ever you happen to
	talk to one of them, you will quickly realize how they abhor the
	mughal rulers.
> 
>       I see RJB movement as a deeply planned and minutely executed 
>       symbolic movement to build a consensus of support. My assessment
>       and hunch is that the disputed structure will not be harmed until
>       a broad national consensus has been reached about its removal, and
>       extremists such as Shahabuddin and Bukhari have been turned into
>       insignificant forces. I don't know if the consensus is the right
>       word but the idea is that most centers of power will be forced into
>       giving in to VHP demand and thus a forced consensus will be obtained.
>       This, in my view, is seen as a watershed because it will shatter
>       the confidence of those who are seeking political power for Islam
>       in India by partitioning it into pieces one by one. No, I don't see

	Don't forget to mention about the shattered confidence of people
	like me, who still believe in democracy and secularism, of those
	people who always denied "might is right", of those people who
	take pride in being indian and say "I am an Indian" before saying
	"I am a hindu" or "I am a muslim".

>       this as a movement against the religious aspects of Islam because
>       no single mosque has been touched by the most volatile of the VHP
>       activists. The objective is only to thrash at the political objectives
>       being sought in the name of Islam by demonstrating a national acceptance
>       of the fact that Babar was a foreigner, his victory towers can be
>       done away with, and those seeking to restore his empire will meet
>       a similar response in India.

	If that is the only objective don't you think "Lal Qila", "Taj
	Mahal", and "Jama Masjid" will serve the purpose better.
> 
>       Yes, it is a long term psychological warfare and a battle of wits;
>       and not a mob reaction to some religious passion. They are willing
>       to draw as many muslims into their fold as possible because that will
>       contribute towards rendering Bukharis and Shahabuddins ineffective.
>       They have demonstrated this fact by having a Muslim driver for 
>       Advani's Rath Yatra and by hiring Muslims for weaving the janeoo's 
>       (threads) and making wooden Ram-sandals as mentioned in another 
>       post recently.
> 
>       So, it is all long term politics and those who argue about it in terms
>       of the merits/demerits of Ram's birth place are kind of clueless about
>       the games that are being played.
> 
	So finally it boils down to a game of politics.  Do these people
	ever realize how many lives have been lost in this game, how many
	have been rendered homeless, how they have sowed the seed of
	ill-will between two communities living together for years, of
	how this game is affecting the nation?  Let these people not
	forget that games played on the religious lines won't last long.
	Why, not even the british could play it forever.
	Like the leadership in America, I think its a time for change in
	India.  But a different kind of change.  The new generation does
	not want to inherit ill-will and hatred kindered by the earlier
	generations.  Let us stop this attitude _"his grandfather killed
	my grand father so I have to kill him"_ and collectively adopt
	a different approach.
> 
> 
> ---raj
> 
> 
> 
	Nadeem

-- 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
   Mohammed Nadeem	  e-mail: nadeem@bobcat.ent.ohiou.edu
			        : aldstf20@ouaccvmb.ucls.ohiou.edu
	"TREAT OTHERS THE WAY YOU WANT THEM TO TREAT YOU"
Newsgroups: wpi.students.desis,soc.culture.indian