HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: dfr@usna.navy.mil (PROF D. Rogers (EAS FAC))
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
Subject: Re: Locked on the Controls (was GLiding instruction)
Date: 26 Aug 92 13:12:04 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: U. S. Naval Academy

In article <1992Aug24.204218.9950@microsoft.com> t-dougf@microsoft.com (Douglas Fields) writes:
>In article <1992Aug21.143956.10325@cbnewsi.cb.att.com> pilla@cbnewsi.cb.att.com (michael.a.pilla) writes:
>>In article <Y2-1O0HY4@linac.fnal.gov> carlson@linac.fnal.gov (Kermit Carlson) writes:

Story about almost hitting a float plan and having an instructor grab 
the controls when avoidance action taken.

>So, after I regained my composure, about 500 feet down, and spoke
>coherently that there was a seaplane not 20' above us, he said, "You
>have a lot to learn about crew concept."

Actually I think he does. He should have talked first. People usually
don't do radical things without reason. Also you might have called
`Collison' or something similar. I know hard to do at the time.

Dave Rogers

Newsgroups: rec.aviation
From: jhenderson@pomona.claremont.edu
Subject: Mag check random thoughts
Organization: Pomona College
Date: 30 Aug 92 02:26:16 PDT

In article <3400250@hpcc01.corp.hp.com>, mtc@hpcc01.corp.hp.com (Mark Cousins) writes:
> Now, how many of us have, in going to R, sailed right through it and gone to
> OFF, then quickly turned it back to BOTH, to be rewarded with a loud report
> from the exhaust system?  Taught me to be most deliberate in my handling of
> the mag switch . . . sheesh.  Luckily I didn't break anything.

I admit to have done it once (or twice...or thrice...). The first time I did
it, the instructor was onboard, and he said that actually one should turn the
ignition off every once in a while, to ensure that the magnetos are properly
grounded. It made sense to me when he said it. What's the net.wisdowm on this?
I never experienced any backfiring when quickly going from OFF to BOTH while
the engine was still turning.

Now, I rent from this other FBO also, which deals with Cherokees only, and he
includes his own checklists, where they actually list a mag check at the end of
each flight, before engine shutdown, including turning the ignition switch to
OFF.
______________________________________________________________________________
Javier Henderson, N6VBG         | Beat the 55mph limit (legally):
jhenderson@pomona.claremont.edu | Learn to fly!
From: jle@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Jer/ Eberhard)
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 19:39:14 GMT
Subject: Re: Wonderful place to visit in Idaho Wilderness Area!
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Fort Collins, CO, USA
Newsgroups: rec.aviation

Joel Larner and I are going to Idaho to fly the backcountry (with
an instructor) Sept 9 thru 13.  

I'm looking for hot springs near airports (within 4 miles walking
distance) in Idaho, or enroute from Ft Collins Colorado thru Montana and
Wyoming.

Please email me your recommendations, locations (lat/long or VOR/DME)
and any other information you wish to impart.  I will post a summary if
requested.

Jer/ Eberhard, (SLASH), HAM = N0FZD     | Hewlett-Packard - MS99, 1UP10,15'East
Pilot: COMM, INST, CFI-Airplane & Glider| 3404 East Harmony Road (303) 229-2861
CAP CFI, Check & Mission, Pikes Peak 218| Fort Collins, Colorado  80525-9599 
EMAIL:  jle@fc.hp.com or Jer_Eberhard@fc.hp.com
From: fskevin@mars.lerc.nasa.gov (Kevin R. Kirtley (SVER))
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
Subject: Re: Finding toxic waste (Re: Flying for the Environment)
Keywords: ponds, plumes, piles, and stains
Date: 26 Aug 92 14:48:00 GMT
Organization: NASA Lewis Research Center
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

>John De Armond, WD4OQC               |Interested in high performance mobility?  
>Performance Engineering Magazine (TM) |
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Here's one magazine I'll never read.


Kevin 'if Margaret is a twinket I must be a Ho Ho' Kirtley
Name calling can be so creative; I guess JDA spends alot of time on it.
From: bills@hplvec.LVLD.HP.COM (Bill Standerfer)
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 13:46:20 GMT
Subject: Re: Regional differences in IFR route assignment (was: I give up...)
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Co., Loveland, CO
Newsgroups: rec.aviation

In article <greg.714330300@saltydog>, greg@saltydog.dpsi.com (Gregory R.
Travis) writes:
>Well, Dave Rogers says that he gets what he files in the NE and I
>believe him.  But I don't know how he does it.  I CAN get what I
>file in the NE if I file the IFR "preferred" routes.  However, these are
>only published for certain regions/destinations and you're left on your
>own if you want to fly somewhere else.  The other problem is that they
>are often significantly longer than a more direct route.

You guys out east have just lost your sense of humor.  You need to come out
west (but not too far west) to change your perspective.  How about "cleared as
filed" to, say, Sioux Falls direct from Fort Collins (414nm), or Moline,
IL direct Fort Collins (659nm).  But just for a visit, OK?  We don't want the
sky cluttered up with all those little airplanes.

:-)

Bill Standerfer
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
From: venky@thelonious.bellcore.com (G A Venkatesh)
Subject: Re: Number of U.S. Pilots  (was Number of small aircraft wanted)
Reply-To: venky@thelonious.bellcore.com (G A Venkatesh)
Organization: Bellcore, Morristown NJ
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 92 18:13:00 GMT

In article <1992Aug27.154150.6389@nlm.nih.gov> masys@nlm.nih.gov (Dr. Daniel R. Masys) writes:
>
>If this is true, it is really quite scary -- only 1 in 7 of the people
>in the pattern at the average GA airport has the knowledge, skills, and
>experience of getting the instrument rating.  I guess I'm one of the
>pilots for whom the IFR ticket was a revelation in understanding flying,
>and look back in chagrin at how perilously close to grief I was a few
>times, along the "Continued VFR..." road to perdition.

But if VFR pilots usually kill themselves by "Continued VFR..." events,
why should the domination of the pattern by VFR pilots scare you? You aren't
suggesting that VFR pilots, as a class, are not capable of behaving 
themselves in the pattern, are you? :-)

Unfortunately, according to statistics that I had posted a long time ago, 
flying into bad weather kills as many VFR pilots as IFR pilots. It is just the
severity of the weather that differentiates them. It is not the lack of 
knowledge, skills or the experience but judgment that is the problem. Neither 
VFR nor IFR pilots are good at keeping out of weather that will kill them.

>I guess this is why old people get paranoid -- they know too much.
>The newly minted VFR pilot thinks "I'm OK, You're OK."  The IFR pilot
>looks around at all those other planes, ATC, and the weather and
>thinks "I'm not OK, You're not OK (but it's OK)" :-).

Paranoia and over-confidence seem to alternate for periods of time along the
path to higher experience. You learn about more ways to get killed but also
learn more ways to stay alive.

venky
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
From: oparowski_w@apollo.hp.com (William Oparowski)
Subject: Taildragger for Sale
Originator: oparowski_w@flagman
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 13:16:01 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Apollo Division - Chelmsford, MA




        1979 C-152 TEXAS TAILDRAGGER.  150 HP, 1200TT, 580SMOH.
        WHITE, RED, BLACK AND SILVER IMRON.  STAINLESS DISKS,
        HORTON STOL KIT W/SUPER TIPS.  CHROME SPINNER, 4 CYL EGT.
        DUAL 720 COM/NAVS. INTERCOM, LORAN, TXP/MODE C, NEW GYROS,
        SKYLIGHTS, CUSTOM BLACK/WHITE VELOUR SEATS, SCOTT TAILWHEEL,
        THIRD SEAT, STROBE.  400 FT. TAKEOFF. NOW  REDUCED TO $31,000
        FRESH ANNUAL. SKI (603) 964-6203.
    
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
From: t-dougf@microsoft.com (Douglas Fields)
Subject: Re: Locked on the Controls (was GLiding instruction)
Date: 24 Aug 92 20:42:18 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corporation
Distribution: na

In article <1992Aug21.143956.10325@cbnewsi.cb.att.com> pilla@cbnewsi.cb.att.com (michael.a.pilla) writes:
>In article <Y2-1O0HY4@linac.fnal.gov> carlson@linac.fnal.gov (Kermit Carlson) writes:
>>    I hope that I never have to findout what the most effective method
>>really is to unlock a student from the controls.....But, the person
>>who signed off my endorsement to take the CFI ride suggested covering
>>a person's eyes or hitting above their knee. When I asked if it worked
>>for him he told me that the worst  he had encountered was in an AT-6
>>during his days as an Army instructor, with no option but to wrestle
>>the stick.... maybe that MAGLITE flashlight idea isnt so far off the
>>mark...

What about unlocking a CFI from the controls? The other day I was flying
over Puget sound near the canadian border over water at 6500, when all of
a sudden I see a floatplane on a perpendicular course not 20' above me
and perhaps 500' away. God knows why we didn't see him, but I let out a
suprised something (it was incoherent) and slammed on the controls to
dive out of the way. My instructors reaction was to stop looking out the
window and pull back just as hard on the controls. ARGH!

So, after I regained my composure, about 500 feet down, and spoke
coherently that there was a seaplane not 20' above us, he said, "You
have a lot to learn about crew concept."

But seriously, who would think of meeting a floatplane at 6500' in the
middle of nowhere? :)

Cheers,

Doug
PP-ASEL
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
From: doshay@ursa.arc.nasa.gov (David Doshay)
Subject: Re: GA Safety (was: stupid pilot tricks)
Organization: NASA-Ames Biocomputation Center
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 17:45:23 GMT

In article <1992Sep3.140043.12172@cbnewsm.cb.att.com>, glennw@cbnewsm.cb.att.com (glenn.r.wesley) writes:
|> In article <71556@apple.Apple.COM> rcm@Apple.COM (Robert Charles Monsen) writes:
|> >This thread has me thinking, though, that there are a lot of, well, 'young'
|> >pilots out there doing a lot of, well, 'young' things. Things like
|> >buzzing.
|> 
|> This brings up an interesting question.  I have never seen accident
|> statistics based on age for GA.  So how about it?  What do you think
|> the statistics show based on:
|> 	(1) Age at time of accident
|> 	(2) Age when pilot license obtained
|> 	(3) rec.aviation readers vs. others :-)


What I have been wondering is:

Has anyone looked at GA safety MINUS a few things like buzzing the family
house and flying into IFR conditions without the rating? 

These are things that continue to
kill "young" (mentally, not nec. in years or hours) pilots, but are easy
to avoid. It is probably tough to subtract out the number of passanger miles
of stupid pilots, but the dead ones' logbooks always get looked at, so there
is a good starting point.

David		doshay@soma.arc.nasa.gov

The thought police insist I tell you:
my thoughts, not NASA's
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
From: schinner@vcd.hp.com (Jim Schinnerer)
Subject: Re: Glass Goose
Organization: Hewlett-Packard VCD
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 19:50:33 GMT

I will take the liberty of paraphrasing that article for those of you who
are not recipients of the wonderful publication.....

The Glass Goose started out as a Sea Hawker.  It didn't fly very well -
it flew slightly above stall, and barely made it out of the water.
Sponsons were added to provide lift out of the water, and aerodynamic
lift.  Some vortex generators were added just ahead of the propellor.
Seems as though the air was not re-forming around the fusalage in time
for the propellor to chew it up.

These mods are being marketed by a company to Sea Hawker owners/builders.

Just a thought...the Sea Hawker has been around a while and I can't believe
that it is the first one built.  Have other owners had similar doggy
performance?  If so, how come no one knows about it?  Is this why the
original Sea Hawker company (forget the name) is now defunct?

---------------------------------------------------------
Jim Schinnerer  -  PP-ASEL-IA       |  Hewlett Packard
Mooney - 350X  -  "Buster"          |  Vancouver, WA
email - schinner@vcd.hp.com         |  (206) 944-3324
---------------------------------------------------------
From: steveha@tekig5.pen.tek.com (Steven L Harris)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
Subject: Re: What do you do during long boring flights?
Date: 4 Sep 92 18:04:48 GMT
Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Beaverton,  OR.

>In article <j2gnm#n.hchong@netcom.com> hchong@netcom.com (Hoi Chong) writes:
>Usually, we listen to radio in the cars during long solo drive, but what do 
>you do for long solo flights (assuming FAA does not permit radio)?  Please 
>email if you think it is illegal and don't want FAA to see it. 


Well, I sleep --  I often let my wife fly, she does a better job at staying
attentive for those 3 hour stints over the desert with nothing to look at
than I do.  She does a good job maintaining altitude and heading (and following
the loran), knows to watch for traffic, monitor engine instruments etc.  It 
really helps to arrive refreshed for the end of the trip. She enjoys flying
but doesn't get the same thrills out of it that I do.  She did take lessons
up to solo and a few after, then decided to drop it -- she prefers to be
and "involved passenger" rather than PIC.

If I am alone, I usually spend the time scanning for traffic, thinking about
landing spots, doing ETA calculations .... anything to keep the alertness up.
I also tend to like to fly low enough to see things interesting, anything 
more than about 4K AGL is nosebleed territory!

Steve
Short Wing Piper N6720B -- the family plane
RV-4 under construction -- MY plane
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
From: phil@eecs.nwu.edu (William LeFebvre)
Subject: Re: There I was - mag check
Organization: EECS Department, Northwestern University
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 14:43:18 GMT

In article <Aug.30.13.03.22.1992.22373@pilot.njin.net>, ron@pilot.njin.net (Ron Natalie) writes:
|> Here's a number of small things that have happened to me, that
|> probably have happened to many people (see how many of these
|> you have done):
...


After refueling (in a Cessna), attempt to taxi away from the fuel pumps
	with the fuel selector still on "off" (I had just come back from a 
	long x-c and decided that I needed to make sure that both tanks
	were really full).
Get clearance to taxi in to "position and hold" and attempt to do so
	with the hand brake still on.
Hear and correctly read back taxi instructions, and then do it wrong
	anyway (boy did the controller chew me out for that one!).
First time in an older model Cessna (a "G"), do an entire landing thinking
	that the ASI is calibrated in knots when its really MPH.
Forget to apply carb heat (in a Cessna) before landing, and not catch
	it until you run thru the post-landing checklist ("carb heat
	off.....oh...it's already off!").
Forget to turn on transponder.


No one will ever fly with me again.  :-)

		William LeFebvre
		Computing Facilities Manager and Analyst
		Department of Electrical Engineering and Computer Science
		Northwestern University
		<phil@eecs.nwu.edu>
From: brianh@pongo.Eng.Sun.COM (Brian Horn)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
Subject: Re: Air Lifeline experience
Date: 26 Aug 1992 22:04:43 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Mt. View, Ca.
NNTP-Posting-Host: pongo

In article <5934@transfer.stratus.com> lee@bluefuzz.sw.stratus.com (Lee Cooprider) writes:
[deleted]
>What guidelines were you given by Air Lifeline and Angel Flight?
[re: use of LIFEGUARD]

I was always told (by both organizations) to use LIFEGUARD only when a
mission was time critical.  The only time this should occur is is/when
one is transportated perishable/time critical material (e.g. live organs).
Since I have never been given a mission of this type, I have never used
the LIFEGUARD designation.
From: milbouma@esvax.dnet.dupont.com (Mark Milbourne)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
Subject: Re: hang glider varios, soaring list
Date: 1 Sep 92 15:15:36 GMT
Organization: DuPont CR&D/Scientific Computing Div
X-Xxmessage-Id: <A6C8FDA2B5015A1C@milbouma.es.dupont.com>
X-Xxdate: Tue, 1 Sep 92 10:59:46 GMT
X-Useragent: Nuntius v1.1.1d9

In article <1992Sep01.122209.7136@brtph560.bnr.ca> Richard Larsen P220,
rlarsen@bnr.ca writes:
>Richard Larsen;no email;private;Carolina Soaring, Louisberg N.C.;2-33,
>1-26,1-34,2-32,l-13,g-103,szd-51,krosno kr03;160;no badges

Richard is number 87.  This is getting to be quite the list - I figured we'd
get about 50 or so.  I'll post the next update when I get back from vacation
on the 16th.

(Sorry to clutter the net with this, but Richard has no e-mail)

Richard,
I notice you're at Carolina Soaring - I'm going to be in the area on vacation
and plan to be there Sunday afternoon the 6th (or Monday the 7th is the
weather is bad Sunday) to take the friends we're visiting for rides.  
Hopefully I'll be meeting Walt Martin, another soaring rec.aviator (until his
news access got cut off by his employer).  If you plan to be out there, look
for us!  I'll try to remember to wear my yellow and blue rec.aviation button
that I got at the recent CBFI (thanks Dr. Dan Masys!)

Since you don't have e-mail, if you want to try to arrange a meeting
time/place call my work phone (302) 695 3328.  You can leave voice-mail if I'm
not at my desk.  I'll be here through Friday - driving down Saturday.

Hey - maybe this will be the first rec.aviation "Soar-in" !     :-)
-- 
From: hale@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Bill Hale)
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 00:02:00 GMT
Subject: Re: Engine swaps, dash-numbers, and the Feds
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Fort Collins, CO, USA
Newsgroups: rec.aviation

It might be simpler with this airplane to restore it to its original
TC data sheet specs.

The later -# engines had higher compression and were redlined at 2400 rpm,
which gave equivalent horsepower (at slightly lower noise level).  But
100LL became required.  (has it been run on this?)

I believe that inspection of the parts manual will show that all parts
normally NOT replaced at a major OH are common, so it should be inexpensive
to convert the engine back at OH.  An AI can ensure conformity unless the
airplane gets involved in a FAA hassle.

Agreeing to return it promptly to original specs may placate the FAA, too.

If the owner is dead set on doing a conversion, why not go for higher HP
versions of the 470, like a 260?  Not sure those are carburated, tho.
Would be a big deal to convert to fuel injection.  Use of a designated 
engineering rep who has worked with that FSDO is recommended.  Knows
required paperwork and what can be shorted out.

Unless the aircrart has been running on 80 octane and over 2400 rpm,
this IS just a paperwork exercise.  But the feds have a real attitude
about doing it correctly.  I would have avoided stirring things up by
doing the inquiry!  Plain and simple, it just ain't legal!

+Regards, Bill Hale;  hale@hpfclm.FC.HP.COM   [hplabs|hpfcla]!hpfclm!hale
+Thru ether-K0QA; In ether-BE33 N33HP CFIAIME A&P; Twisted pair 1-303-229-3037
+Snail: c/o HP UTD MS73 3404 E Harmony, Ft Collins, CO 80525 Incoming:40 44.2N
+105 33.1W; Pictures 303-299-6441  M1 bigot
From: masys@nlm.nih.gov (Dr. Daniel R. Masys)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
Subject: Re: C-177RG & insurance
Date: 27 Aug 92 11:39:21 GMT
Organization: National Library of Medicine

In article <4-cnn7f.steve@netcom.com> steve@icarus.net.netcom.com writes:
>
>Also, how about insurance for a C-177RG? Anybody have experience
>shopping for insurance and what it costs? Pointers on this subject
>would be appreciated.
>
Insurance rates seem to be in flux this year; do shop around.  Consider
an independent agent experienced in aviation who can shop around for
you.  Mine is with USAA (the military officer folks) but they just serve
as an independent agent, and in five years I've had 4 different company
names on the actual policy (currently AIG).  They relate rate differences
of up to a factor of 2 between insurers this year.

If a retractable is your first plane, it isn't going to be cheap.  Most
insurers charge you more the first year, then if no claim is filed,
give a better deal in subsequent years. 
>
>P.S. Obviously, I'm new at this airplane purchasing stuff,
>and quite frankly, its a little scary. However, I am possesed
>and intend to go through with it, the fates willing. I've already
>received useful comments about the C-177RG (my goal craft) and
>am grateful. The more the better.

Before purchasing a plane, I was in a flying club with 2 177RG's, from
which the following wisdom/folklore (take your pick) emerged:

1.  Be wary of model years 77-79, during which Cessna's quality control
    was abysmal.  Poorly fitting doors (subsequently damaged by
    wind gusts) are a common problem.  If the doors don't fit, better
    pull the interior trim panels to look for corrosion caused by
    rainwater leakage.

2.  The total number of 177's built was relatively small, and parts
    availability is becoming a problem.  One of the club's 177RG's
    sat on the tarmac at Dulles for a month waiting for a Bendix
    mag part to be scavenged from some salvage yard on the west
    coast (no new part available at any cost).

3.  Learn the preferred hot start procedure for the IO-360 from the
    previous owner; the POH may not help much.

4.  The C177RG and Mooney 201 share essentially the same engine.  Never
    engage in a discussion of relative aircraft performance with a
    Mooney 201 driver :-).

Dan Masys
masys@nlm.nih.gov
From: rfh3273@galileo.rtn.ca.boeing.com (Dick Harrigill)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
Subject: Re: Comparing Tach and Hobbs rates?
Date: 31 Aug 92 17:35:47 GMT
Organization: Boeing Commercial Airplane Group, Seattle

In article <1992Aug28.162042.18025@eecs.nwu.edu> phil@eecs.nwu.edu (William LeFebvre) writes:
>The new club forming at Palwaukee (see previous post) will be charging
>Tach rates for their planes...
>For that matter, exactly what IS tach time?  I mean, I know basically
>what it is, but....  Well, let me ask it a different way.  Fill in the
>blank:  1 hour of tach time is equivalent to one hour of engine operation
>at ____% power.  Does it vary depending on the engine?

Our club uses Tach time, which is the meter on your Tachometer.  Best I can tell,
Hobbs/Tach is 1/1 at full throttle.  However, you rarely fly full throttle except
during a climb.

When doing pattern work and maneuvers, 1 Hobbs Hour equals about 0.6 to 0.7 tach
hours.  A longer distance cruise (at say 2400RPM in a C172) will be about 0.8 or
0.9 tach hours per Hobbs.

IMHO, Tach rates are a much fairer way to charge than pure Hobbs.


-- 
Dick Harrigill, an independent voice from:     Boeing Commercial Airplanes 
M/S 9R-49  PO BOX 3707                       Renton Avionics/Flight Systems
Seattle, WA  91824                                  Computing Support
(206) 393-9539    rfh3273@galileo.rtn.ca.boeing.com    CDP, PP-ASEL
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
From: hanlon@ariel.lerc.nasa.gov (Casey Hanlon (SVER))
Subject: be nice to your engine
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: NASA Lewis Research Center
Date:  2 Sep 1992 11:27 EST  

I'll have to disagree.  Stress is a factor within the normal operating range 
of an aircraft engine.  Things like connecting rod and main rod bearing bolts
are routinely replaced at overhaul because they do stretch due to the loads
they are subjected to.  Cases and cyclinders crack due to stress caused by
a combination of mechanical loading and thermal gradients.  Connecting rods
are checked for straightness before being returned to service.  In short
higher rpm's will increase the wear rate and higher manifold pressures will
increase the stresses the individual components are subject to.  The kernel
of wisdom in the rebuilders statement to run the engine often and hard is 
the often part.  Allowing the engine to sit for weeks on end between 
starts is hard on the engine.  This allows the oil to drain off vital
areas so that the first few moments of operation are without the protective
film of oil.  Simply allowing the engine to idle for 10 or 15 minutes once
every few weeks is also bad for the engine.  This doesn't bring the engine
up to operating temperature long enough to evaporate any water that
has condensed inside the engine.  As a consequence the amount of water
in the sump simply accumulates and is circulated throughout the engine.


Casey Hanlon