Newsgroups: bit.listserv.seasia-l
Date:         Fri, 9 Oct 1992 05:57:26 -0500
From:         Max Becherer <becherer@SUNA0.CS.UIUC.EDU>
Subject:      Good Timor Postings

     To Indonesians who support their government in East Timor...

There hase been a fair amount of flaming on the net, but STILL no
explainations of why Indonesia should have the right to hold onto East Timor.
Enclosed are three articles (two by Indonesians, NOT East Timorese) which I
agree with wholeheartedly.


>Max, other interested parties,
>I have a feeling that we are running into a kind of time-warped information
>barrier here, re: were/are the east timorese treated like animals or not.
>I think that the facts have been gone over enough and most of us who are
>interested in this issue know enough to decide for themselves.
>To draw a parallel with the ex-USSR, when I was in Voronezh, south east of
>Moscow for 3 months in 1988, we talked to our russian teachers about the baltic
>question - were the baltic republics annexed, did they voluntarily join the
>ussr at the end of ww2, etc. The russians often sincerely believed that the
>baltic states were not annexed, that there was no such thing as a
>molotov-ribbentrop pact, etc. You can call it brainwashed, or information
>deprived, or whatever. I suspect that to some extent the same is true in this
>rapidly escalating debate on atrocities in e.timor - the 2 sides are talking
>from different information standpoints, neither of which is purely black
>or white, but both of which have national interests at stake, one way or
>he other. In this case I have my own opinion based on what i have read and also
>seen in indonesia - i think that there are productive and unproductive ways of
>convincing others.
>
>Robert Davison,
>ISROBET@CPHKVX.BITNET
>
>
>Yes Mr. Robert, I think you are right.
>Probably we as Indonesian has a different source of news and that
>is why both side in East Timor debate in this list feels that
>they are the right side.
>Okay all my Indonesian friend, let just stop this debate.
>Better if we just wait and see the development.
>If later East Timor free from Indonesia, that is okay...we still
>have a lot of province.
>If East Timor still in Indonesia let us develop that province
>and help them to be more wealth.
>Beside this I don't see that this debate is useful for us.
>Many of us came to USA for education, so the main target
>is how to graduate with a good GPA. Let just other people
>talk about East Timor, probably they can do something.
>As long as they are not bothering our own life, that's okay!!!
>Because the main point is as I said before, this debate will be
>difficult to solve as aresult from different source of news.
>Good luck with your study!
>
>IMARTO
>
>From SEASIA-L@msu.bitnet Thu Oct  8 11:28:00 1992
>Received: from mizzou1.missouri.edu by suna0.cs.uiuc.edu with SMTP id AA18523
>  (5.65b/IDA-1.4.3 for becherer); Thu, 8 Oct 92 11:27:56 -0500
>Received: from MIZZOU1 by MIZZOU1.missouri.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R1)
>   with BSMTP id 5327; Thu, 08 Oct 92 11:27:25 CDT
>Received: from MIZZOU1.BITNET by MIZZOU1 (Mailer R2.08) with BSMTP id 9108;
> Thu, 08 Oct 92 11:27:24 CDT
>Received: from MSU.BITNET by MSU.BITNET (LISTSERV release 1.7d) with NJE id
>          2186 for SEASIA-L@MSU.BITNET; Thu, 8 Oct 1992 12:21:57 -0400
>Received: from utorugw by MSU.BITNET (Mailer R2.08 PTF008) with BSMTP id 6550;
>          Thu, 08 Oct 92 12:21:34 EDT
>Received: from rainbow.physics.utoronto.ca ([128.100.75.19]) by ugw.utcs.
>          utoronto.ca with SMTP id <9346>; Wed, 7 Oct 1992 08:54:49 -0400
>Received: by rainbow.physics.utoronto.ca id AA06781; Wed, 7 Oct 92 08:59:00 EDT
>Message-Id:   <9210071259.AA06781@rainbow.physics.utoronto.ca>
>Newsgroups:   bit.listserv.seasia-l
>Date:         Wed, 7 Oct 1992 08:59:00 -0400
>Reply-To: Southeast Asia Discussion List <SEASIA-L@msu.bitnet>
>Sender: Southeast Asia Discussion List <SEASIA-L@msu.bitnet>
>From: Djoko Wirosoetisno <djoko@RAINBOW.PHYSICS.UTORONTO.CA>
>Subject:      re: Re: Woooowww....wooooowww
>X-To:         seasia-l@msu.bitnet
>To: Multiple recipients of list SEASIA-L <SEASIA-L@msu.bitnet>
>Status: RO
>
>   I haven't seen many inntelligent comments from Indonesians on
>this East Timor issue, so here's my .0001% worth :
>
>>    I need to ask two questions concerning these East Timor ordeal, just
>>    to get a clearer picture ;
>>
>> 1. Why does the East Timorese is so persistent (like you say)
>>    to be independent.
>
>   Some East Timorese want to have their own country, some, however want
>be part of Indonesia. We don't know what the majority opinion is because
>before they had a chance to vote on this very important issue Jakarta
>ordered its army to invade the region.
>
>>    What are the benefit for them as an Independent country,
>
>   Whether they wold be better off as an independent state or not is not
>an issue, what matters is the right of a people to determine their own
>future --- this is in the preamble to the Indonesian constitution, BTW.
>The issue is the right to self-determination, which I hope every
>Indonesian believe.
>
>> and why being Indonesian is so bad for them ?
>
>   I assume you're Indonesian, so let me ask you this question :
>If the US invaded Indonesia, would you happily disown your identity
>as an Indonesian and call yourself an American instead ? Their standard
>of living is higher than Indonesia's after all.
>   I would much rather keep my Indonesian citizenship, if you're
>interested.
>
>> 2. What do they have to live on as an Independent country ?
>
>   Again, this is _not_ the issue. If they voted to be independent,
>they would have to worry about their resources themselves. There is
>no justification for Indonesia, according to international and
>Indonesian laws, to `rescue' these poor people by occupying their land.
>
>   - Djoko.
>

            What is so unreasonable about these letters ?



Refer comments, suggestions, flames to

                 Max Becherer    becherer@cs.uiuc.edu

       Nothing Evil lasts forever -- the Future belongs to the Free.