From: mikef@amiganet.chi.il.us (Mike Fleming)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.apple2
Subject: Re: Piraccy via BBSs (was: Re: Apple Awards)
Date: 16 Apr 92 22:00:57 GMT
Organization: Amiga Network Information Systems

Scott Alfter writes:
>In article <01050133.0tv0lq@caligula.cts.com> edw@caligula.cts.com (Ed
>Watkeys)writes:
>>In my area, there are about five BBSs which don't steal software (I think
>>"pirating" implies a degree of Romanticism absent from most of the stealing
>>that goes on...), and about twenty that do. Now, I asked my friend what makes
>>a "pirate" board worth calling, and he said, "ZModem, of course!"
>
>Odd...out of the three Apple II boards in the Las Vegas area, only one
>is known to carry pirate wares.  The other two (mine included) only
>carry shareware/freeware/PD/demo stuff.
>
>Of those three boards, only mine supports ZMODEM...mainly because it
>no longer runs on an Apple II (it now runs on a 286 with Wildcat).

Ok, I wasn't going to get into this, but I figure I might as well spew out my thoughts on the Apple II, Piracy and the Apple II, and ProLine...

First of all, ZModem is great, but it doesn't make all the difference in thew world at 2400 baud.  There are other features that make ZModem more useful then X- or Y-Modem, those include auto-start and the ability to restart the xfer anytime  (the former is actually a minor convienence, the latter could be a GREAT convienence,, but I've only ever used it once :)

Just because it's not a "Pirate" board, doesn't mean there won't be transfers. Jupiter System's support board, the Mindboggler (when it is up... the CMS 60 is in the shop now) was one of the most active boards in the area.  It was non-pirate, but we made sure that LOADS of free- and shareware software made it to her libraries.  Mind you, The Mindboggler only had Ymodem, but it was more xfer-wise then some of the "pirate" BBSs that I also frequent.  Before Pro-Ren moved out of the 708 area code, I used to u


se it for what I'm doing now.  Reading USENET feeds.  I found ProLine in general hideously lame for several reasons:
       
        o  The Xfer section supported only Xmodem.  When there *was* something
           in it's libraries I wanted (not often--no one wanted to u/l) it            would take me TWICE as long to get it as YModem.  Any BBS program,
           in this day and age, that cannot support a protocol besides XModem
           should be ignored.  IT IS STUPID to think that a BBS, being a non-
           pirate one, would never get transfers.  MOST OF THE NEW SOFTWARE            TODAY FOR THE APPLE II IS SHAREWARE!!!!

        o  The system on the whole was non-slick, slow, and ugly.  True, I was
           used to the custom fancy-PSE BBSes of the area (still am...each            Apple II BBS in the area has it's own character, but ProLine ones--
           that is, everyone I ever saw--are exactly the same.  This is lame.
           IBMish.)

I've never fallen in love with ProLine.  Mind you, I could rag on each BBS system individually.  ACOS/GBBS old and out of date.  METAL is far slower then (M)ACOS (something I still can't figure out) and still only runs under ProDOS 8 and only supports one line (true for ALL "decent" BBS programs, and I know about METAL GS, but we still need a GS/OS multiline BBS)  And ProLine?  ProLine is just downright LAME when it comes to transfers.

Ok, I should admit, I've not seen ProLine 2.0 yet, but I'm not expecting a total facelift here.  I never liked BASIC, so I don't think I'd be a big fan of running a ProLine system.  Today, if I needed to set up a BBS, I would have to write on from scratch in ORCA/C, because NO Apple II BBS program fills my needs.  Period.

As for Apple II Piracy:  Anyone who thinks that it killed the II, should take another look.  The IIGS was doomed the day it walked out the door.  It didn't catch the "hacker cult" like the Amiga (wretch) did....  because people thought it was too slow.  Software companies didn't want to spend large amounts of resources developing a piece of software for a limited machine.  Software retailers decided that they'd rather stock their shelves with IBM software, leaving the *VAST MAJORITY* of Apple IIGS owners w


ithout a source of support.  Today, there are MILLIONS of people who still have their IIGS--but don't know where to get software for it.  Because they can't get software, software can't sell.  Because software can't sell, developers don't make software.  Get it?  

Where does piracy come into this?  Well, up until relatively recently in Apple II history, the vast majority of Apple II owners who would know about new software reguardless if Babbage's carried it or not, were "Pirates."  Most of the people who DID know there was software, weren't buying.  But they didn't cause the II so much trouble--if there was an easy way to reach those millions of "abandoned" II owners, the software pirates wouldn't matter.  Now it's too late.  Most of the abandoned II owners have lo


ng since gone IBM.  I KNOW.  I've seen no less then 20 former IIGS owners who I haven't seen in 4 years, come up to me and tell me about how they couldn't get software, and now they have a 386.

>With ProLine 2.0, he's done a good job of making sure his product
>never sells.  $259 for a single-line BBS?  Gimme a break!  Even if you
>allow for adding networking, other packages can be had for much less,
>and they work just as well.

Is $259 some sort of a sick joke?  I find GBBS Pro an utter ripoff at $100.  I wouldn't pay any more then $150 for this software...  that's if I actually needed a single-line BBS program with no transfer section.  Which I don't.

Mike

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mike Fleming                         |
Jupiter Systems                      |"Never trust a machine you can't toss
mikef@amiganet.chi.il.us             | out the window!"--Steve Wozniak
<Note: I am NOT an Amiga owner.>     |