From: oberland@vax.sonoma.edu
Newsgroups: sci.energy
Subject: Re: Electric Vehicle
Date: 17 Dec 92 01:42:50 GMT
Organization: Sonoma State University

In article <1992Dec16.201142.3390@ke4zv.uucp>, gary@ke4zv.uucp (Gary Coffman) writes:
> In article <1992Dec15.192918.1@vax.sonoma.edu> oberland@vax.sonoma.edu writes:
>>
>>I drive 7-8000 miles a year. IF you subtract the 4 round-trips to LA
>>(420 miles each way, you arrive at a conservative figure of 5K a year.)
>>(I wouls rent or fly to LA)- I would also need no more than 200mile range,
>>and even then, a trip to LA would not be out of the question(would take 
>>1.5 days instead of 1 day)
>>
>>At 5K a year, I am going to need replacement of those Ni-H in lessee...
>>about 8-10 YEARS!  Looks like I don't need to worry about replacement.
> 
> The battery life isn't measured in miles, it's measured in charge/discharge
> cycles. Good NiCads or NiMH batteries are good for between 200-500 charge
> discharge cycles if they aren't abused by overcharging or excess current
> draws or by being discharged excessively. Now NiCads have a self-discharge
> rate of about 10% per week, NiMH is similar, so it's a matter of use it
> or lose it. 5k miles a year is a daily average of 13.7 miles or about 14%
> of the battery capacity. You don't want to discharge the battery to less
> than 20% capacity to preserve it's life. Therefore you have to recharge
> every 6 days. Now 200*6 is 1200 days or 3.25 years. Or looking at it
> another way, the batteries will last about 16,250 miles between replacements.

I have a Ni-cad in my hand that says it is good for 500-1000 recharges
From what I have read, Ni-H have almost double Ni-Cad recharginglifetimes.
200 recharges seems to be REALLY poor performance. what are you using?

Ni-H should get a car going to 200+ miles(they can do 200 + in Ni-cad)

SHOOT. I may just get one that gets 200 miles off of Ni-Cads and realllly
save myself a ton of money.

I figure the way I drive, I would recharge them about every 10-12 days.
I would not buy a car that got less that 200 mile range

Are you sure you aren't adding wrong?
I put 100 miles a week on my car AT MOST.
 
I get, recharging every 10 days, 37 recharges a year.  37*8=296 charges.

I see NO problem getting 40K out of them.
In fact, using the 500 figure and 10 days, I getupwards of 60K
IF I can strech it to once every 2 weeks, It works out to more like 30
per year.

>>PERIOD.  So, my only cost would be the up-front cost.  EVEN if electricity
>>cost DOUBLES and gas goes to 2.00 a gallon(it is 1.35 right now), I figured
>>the following out:
>>6-10K more for the EV(why, I don't know, as the thing is simpler, and has less
>>materials-I figure the batteries cost 20K)-this is WAYYYY to high, considering
>>that such a vehicle would be available in 3-4 years, and Hi-H prices will be
>>MUCCCCH less by then. 
> Speculation. You're still postulating a $30,000 car with the performance
> of a $6,995 Escort. The money you save buying the cheaper car will more
> than pay for any maintenance or gasoline you might consume over it's
> lifetime. Those $20,000 batteries would buy 14,815 gallons of gas that
> would carry a 40 MPG Escort 592,600 miles. Yet you'll have to replace
> the batteries every 16,250 miles.

two notes:1:prices of gas are going to be near 2.00 a gallon in four years.
2:Other than slickness and performance, there is little real difference between
a 10-12k econobox(they are getting expensive) and a 16-20K luxury car
(actually, a "average" car)  That esdort also will set you back more like
9-10K by the time you add in enough options to make it a decent car to compete
with the EV.
In 4 years, expect that escort to cost more.


???  I said 6K MORE .  I seriously doubt that in 4 years batteries
will cost that much.  If I did a home-brew conversion I could prpbably 
save big $$$.  As one person pointed out, they got Ni-Cads for under $1
at that rate, 20K of D_cells(accuming you could FIT them in the car)
would generate 60v@1600-2000AH.   Since he got the cells for .85 each,
I figure the auto-makers could get them for about .50 each.  Is 3500AH
enough for a car?  And that is just Ni-cads off the shelf.

(could someone figure out what that 320 mile car uses in terms of
power, per mile, and compare?)

>>200miles in avg commuter car would take 5 gallons of gas.  multiply times 
>>250 for 50K miles*2/gallon=2500 dollars for gas.  Recharging my EV would
>>not cost anywhere NEAR 10 dollars for 200 miles.
>>I figure a conservative 1000-1500 dollars less to run and operate for 50K
>>miles.
>>figure in oil changes, clutch job, muffler,tuneups, and simmilar, and
>>the costs just about even out(8-10years maint). If there is a 2-4K difference,
>>I would gladly pay it up front, as I can finance it over 10 years if need 
>>be(along with the car)
>>My monthly costs and repair costs would be much less with an EV
> 
> My pickup just rolled over 100,000 miles the other day. I spend about
> $80 a year on consumables such as air and oil filters, oil, and plugs.
> 20,000 miles ago I spent $23 for new brake pads. And last month I
> spent $200 on a new catalytic converter, my first major expense. So I've 
> spent $623 on maintenance in the last 5 years. That's less than six month's 
> *interest* on a set of $20,000 batteries.

Goody for you.  Guess we all have wonder-vehicles like you do...
Figure in 10 years maintenence.  Also, the bateries, by the time I get the car,
would be a LOT less expensive.
(We are talking 3-4 years from now, not tommorrow)
Most things (like belts and radiators(and mufflers) are notreally based on
mileage, but on time.  10 years of city smog is enough to pulverize most 
belts.  10 years of rain and/or snow will kill your paint, and kill your
muffler.  I would keep the car for 8-10 years.  The fact that I put less
mileage on it is only to the benefit of the engine and transmission.
 
>>It is a LOT easier to figure in 4-6K replacement cost 6-10 yrs. down the line,
>>than it is to keep paying 1-2K a year for "routine maintenence", at times when
>>you CAN'T budget it.  AS for the comment about investing the extra money,
>>GET REAL.  Almost everyone finances their car, so having the extra money lying
>>around to invest is just not going to happen.  Also, that money IF it were
>>invested would most likely go for other things("..well, gee.. the car hasn't
>>had any problems so far, and a new Computer would be nice...).  
>>SHOW me 10 people who put aside 6-10k when they buy a car to pay for repairs
>>and I will believe you.
> 
> Just put aside $10 a month when you make your car payment. Let it draw
> interest. It's not a big deal. Making payments on a $30,000 car *is* a
> big deal. The interest *alone* amounts to $150 a *month*. If you can
> afford that, you can afford to set aside $10 a month for maintenance
> expenses. I don't know anyone who budgets 6-10k for repairs. Hell I
> don't know many people who would pay that much for a commuter car.
> A 3 year old Pontiac 6000 goes for about $3,000 around here and is 
> usually good for another 3-4 years before it needs major repair.
> Then you dump it and buy another.

10 a month?  That seems a bit low.  Also, a commuter car EV would only
cost 12-14K or so IF prices and technology goes at thew same pace as it has,
for the next four years.  I suspect that some company in Japan will once
again, build a 4000 dollar car(their cost), and add in a ton of cheap
Ni-Cads and sell it all for 12-14K.  

Also, in 4 years, when the EV's come out, you will be hard-pressed to get a
neew carfor under 10K.

Guess we all have wonder-cars, eh?
My parents had their computers go bad at 47K
My trans went bad at 42K
My computers fried at 70K
Muffler went bad 30K, and5K
None of the repairs were covered under warranty(read the small print)
My car now is rusting, as the paint all but fell off at 60K(bad factory paint
job)
This is the LAST American car Ibuy(actually I got it from my folks for a lot
less than it was worth)
I would have been better off with a used toyota...

stories like mine are not too uncommon.  NEW cars may have better records, but
not old ones.  Most cars suffer horrible attrition at 7-10 years, reguardelss
of the mileage.  Note, they say 50K *or* 5 years.  My trans went bad on year6.

Also, the advice on buying used car seems to be a bit misplaced.
OF course it will be cheaper to buy a used car.
I could go out and buy a used Porsche 914 or smoething small and simmilar,
and do a home-brew job for not a lot of money(but I'd get about 60-100
mile range, again, enough for me.


IF someone will figure what it takes that new car per mile to run, 
it would help a lot.
I am sure that it is a LOT less than the previous estimate of what it takes per
mile to run an EV.
Newsgroups: sci.energy