From: lb@cs.man.ac.uk (Luben Boyanov)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.europe,eunet.politics,soc.culture.greek
Subject: Re: Macedonian recognition
Date: 27 Aug 92 13:29:47 GMT
Followup-To: soc.culture.europe
Organization: Dept Computer Science, University of Manchester, U.K.

In article <3965.3248.uupcb@factory.com> michael.polymenakos@factory.com (Michael Polymenakos) writes:
>
>LB>You may have a very clear view of the actions of the Bulgarian government
>LB>but a lot of people don't. Could you share with everybody what is so clear
>LB>(and why). I don't know exactly what you have in mind and would be
>
>  The Bulgarian gov. is trying to get to the 'good side' of the Vardar
>  people. Combined with the Bulgarian position that the Macedonian nation
>  does not exist, this lays the basis for an adoption/annexation of
>  Vardar by Bulgaria.

So - because the BG government recognized Macedonia (and "trying to get the
good side"), one can safety consider it as a basis for annexation? Give us
a break. I don't know what the "intentions" of the BG gov. are but such
arguments are ridiculous. And shall we repeat million times that the so
called "recognition of a nation" is something which don't matter and no one
cares. The national consciousness is the one people have. It matters little
of not if one regognizes it or not. It exists! It matters little if one country
recognizes or not a nation - I've never heard such things in politics -
because X does or doesn't recognize nation Y - this is the end of the
world for nation Y. Get real.

>                           Which is OK with me, by the way. Greece's northern
>  neighbors can join and divide themselves all they want, provided they leave
>  Greece alone. My point was that the Bulgarian recognition was no proof of
>  the validity of the Skopjian arguements.

??????????????????????????

>
>LB>Correct and timely decision -      32.0%        33.8%
>
>  Interesting. So the Bulgarian gvmnt went ahead with the concurrence of
>  only 2-fifths or so of the opinionated Bulgarian people.

You just clipped what I posted and made it look quite wrong. The fact,
which I posted was that there were other 33 (or so) % which also said that
this was a "correct" decision. I'm just posting data. If you want to
examine it in a honest way - please - do so.
 
>                                                        More power to my
>  point that they didn't recognise Skopjie because they felt morally
>  compelled  to do so.

"They" DID recognize Macedonia. The only point there was about the timing.

[the need for explanation why BG joined the Axis in WWII is useless to repeat]

>LB>And you seem to be unaware that in Vardar Macedonia the vast majority of
>LB>the people considered themselves Bulgarians and fought on the side of the
>LB>Bulgarian army. Some were for a union with Bulgaria and some were for
>
>   I am very much aware that the Vardar people concidered themselves
>   Bulgarian until the Belgrade propaganda forced them not to. That is the
>   very core of the Greek arguement on the issue.

NO - there is a difference. People DO CHANGE the way they feel. Macedonians
(according to ALL documents and books from before WWI) felt one way about their
national identity before WWI and they feel very much DIFFERENT now !!! And
now is 1992.

>LB>and railways in Vardar Macedonia). So - Bulgaria (de facto leaded by King
>LB>Boris III) had 2 choices - to accept an "offer" by Hitler - (Macedonia +
>LB>Thrace) in return for signing a pact with the Axis Powers or to refuse the
>
>    In 1940, Greece had 2 choices. To join the Axis, or to be invaded. When
>    asked to allow passage of Axis troops though Greece, the Greeks simply
>    said "OHI" (NO!). 

I don't know what was and what wasn't "offered" Greece. And who "offered"
what. 

>    If the Bulgarians had simply allowed the passage of German troops, this
>    would be a different matter,

There was no such "offer". Otherwise - it should have been like this. And I
don't know if in terms of real politics this was possible.

>                                    but Bulgaria annexed (Greek)Macedonia from
>    1941-1944, and actively participated in the extermination of Greeks
>    and Jews in the area.

No - it was the Germans who conducted and controlled this sad matter.
many Bulgarians (the majority of the people, the Church, and the King) took
part in saving the Bulgarian Jews. A lot of documents exist that there was
a serious attempt to save the Jews from the newly acquired territories but
the Germans were in control there and ... Very sad. Otherwise, you are 100%
unable to explain (in case you claim BG was fascist) why the Bulgarians
Jews were saved and not sent to camps. I've posted several articles on that
issue. There were a lot and serious protest about those deportations but as
I mentioned above -BG was not in real control of the new territories.

>LB>immediately after WWI (after the population exchanges !!!), compared with
>LB>numbers for the same population 20 and 40 years later. And you can
>
>   That I have explained in responce to another posting. Slav populations
>   in the only place where they remained after WWI (Thrace) were withdrawn
>   by orders of Sofia during the advance of the Greek republican army
>   towards the end of the Greek civil war.

Hm, never heard about such "orders" from Sofia. And never heard/read that
77000  Bulgarians (stop with this "Slav" - Belgrade might have created a
different nationality - Macedonians, but it seems that others are creating a
new nationality - "Slavs") came to Bulgaria after WWII.

>                                             Sofia's involvement in the Greek
>   civil war was the cause. 

In case there was involvement - it was a Soviet/Communist one. As I said -
Bulgarian communist had enough problems on their own + according to their
beliefs at the time - there should have been a confederation of the Balkans
- i.e. something like the Soviet Union. No nationalistic issues were
involved at that time - on the opposite - the communist from Sofia
denounced the Bulgarian consciousness of the Bulgarian Macedonians. There
were also attempts to create Thracian and Dobrudjan nation - however, only
the Macedonian succeeded.

>                         In contrast, Turkish populations in the same region
>   still remain in increasing numbers today.

The efforts for ethnic cleansing during those days (and all the time before
WWII) were directed towards the Bulgarians. As for the Turks - there are
other people who know the situation better.

>LB>Don't blame the Macedonians for this. Those claims were masterminded
>LB>(probably) by the ex-Belgrade governments, which wanted to have access to
>LB>the Aegean Sea.
>
>   True, also the need for the Belgrade gov to control the people of Vardar,
>   and to separate them from Sofia.

Yes - and they did !!!

>                                         I have stated in the past that the
>   Vardar population are the true victims of this crisis, as they have been
>   forced to forget their coltural heritage and to adopt a fictional one
>   for political purposes.

True but we must respect their consciousness now and try to talk to them so
that there will be no future claims on such issues. I can't see a reason
why Macedonians will not open all books and documents available outside
Skopie and find who wrote what on all matters. Pushing them back towards
Belgrade will be worse.

>LB>>                So much blood has been spilled in the name of "re-uniting
>LB>>      Macedonia".
>LB>True. Let's never allow (if we can) blood to be spilled again.
>   amen
>Michael


Luben
Xref: sparky soc.culture.europe:8029 eunet.politics:1187 soc.culture.greek:8356