HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: oexmann@convex.com (Carla Oexmann)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Comments on Yellowstone
Date: 20 Aug 92 01:12:37 GMT
Article-I.D.: news.1992Aug20.011237.8653
Organization: Engineering, CONVEX Computer Corp., Richardson, Tx., USA
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

In article <1992Aug19.155438.24499@news2.cis.umn.edu> gdw@moose.cccs.umn.edu (Gavin Watt) writes:
>We went to Yellowstone last January mostly X-C skiiing and enjoyed it 
>but for the tourists on snowmobiles.  They seem like nice, albeit 
>portly, folks but they cease to be cute as they caravan up and down the 
>roads -- brrrrrrnnnnnnnnggggg brrrrrrnnnnnggggg. 

I just read a book by the Yellowstone Chief Ranger ( Scholly ?  something
like that ).  He mentioned an experiment where they put heart monitors 
on elk and watched as snowmobiles and xc skiers went by.  After the
first part of the season, the monitors showed scarcely a blip when the
snowmobilers went by, but skyrocketed when the skiers went by.

Ritual disclaimer : My opinion and mine alone !  Convex, as best I can tell,
doesn't have opinions, being a corporate entity...
Carla Oexmann        {allegra, sun, harvard, uiucdcs, ctvax}!convex!oexmann
Convex Computer Corp.  3000 Waterview Parkway P.O. Box 833851 Richardson, TX
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: jreece@sousa.intel.com (John Reece)
Subject: Re: MSR Stoves - Whisperlite Int'l. vs. X-GK II
Reply-To: jreece@sousa.intel.com
Organization: Intel - Information Technologies
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 15:57:12 GMT

In article <MAHA.92Aug15204036@elaine15.Stanford.EDU>, maha@elaine15.Stanford.EDU (lakshminarayanan mahadevan) writes:
> 
> Hi,
> 	I am trying to make up my mind about buying a good stove that can be
> used in Asia, Africa and S. America with a variety of fuels. While the X-GKII
> is capable of burning almost anything (including varnish!), it is considerably
> more expensive ($79) than the Whisperlite International ($56) which
> burns keroosine besides White gas. As far as design goes, I find the
> Coleman multifuel Peak I ($36) most appealing because it is just one piece.

I tried the International on kerosene one weekend.  I can't really 
recommend it as a kerosene stove for two reasons.

One, the generator has to get very hot when using kerosene.  The
Whisperlite priming cup is offset from most of it, and the priming
flame often doesn't seem to want to play over it much and we had trouble
getting it anywhere near hot enough.  This isn't much of a problem with 
more volatile gasoline.

Second, MSR came up with an innovation to let you prime with kerosene
by putting a wick in the priming cup.  In fact, the manual insists
you use kerosene instead of alcohol or priming paste.  The problem
is that this results in an incredibly sooty, smoky priming procedure. 

I own the Peak-1 Multifuel and am pleased with it on both gasoline and 
kerosene. It's better to prime it with paste than alcohol since the 
priming cup is rather large and it takes quite a bit of extra alcohol just 
to fill it up.  It simmers very well, though is not as hot as the MSR
XGK.  The price you quoted sounds like it's for one of the standard
single-fuel stoves, not the Multi-fuel.

The MSR XGK is hotter, though it doesn't simmer well.  It's
easier to thoroughly shield it from the wind, since you can do so
without reflecting too much heat back onto the fuel tank as
with the Peak 1.  It's easier to get at all the critical parts to
clean, repair or replace in the field.  It seems to be the stove of
choice for expeditionary base camps.

I've been told that *any* kerosene stove will burn more non-volatile
fuels like diesel or stove oil.  The manufacturer may just not have
chosen to claim it.  I'm not going to chance it unless I'm really
desperate.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Reece			"Oop. Ack. Pfffthpt"	
Not an Intel spokesman 			- Bill the Cat
From: johnc@yuma.acns.colostate.edu (John Cooley)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Moose & Elk
Summary: Not the same animal!
Date: 18 Aug 92 16:36:28 GMT
Followup-To: rec.backcountry
Organization: Colorado State University, Fort Collins, CO  80523

In article <1992Aug18.090819.16139@bernina.ethz.ch> eman@niepce.foto.lpc.ethz.ch (Eric Maniloff x4440) writes:
>Big question here!  What is the difference between a moose & an elk?
>
>Is there a difference?  I thought that moose were expanded versions of elk,
>
>but someone found a dictionary saying moose:  common name for elk.
>
>What's the deal here?

Much to my astonishment, my dictionary (Webster's Ninth New Collegiate
Dictionary, Merriam-Webster, Inc., Springfield, MA, USA) also gives "elk"
as a synonymous cross-reference for moose.  I am not familiar with this
usage, but the other definitions for both moose and elk are clearer.  There
is no question that "moose" and "elk" are common names for different
animals in the formal taxonomy.

The European and Asian elk (alces alces, in the Latin taxonomy) is the largest
existing deer on those continents, but it is not as large as the North 
American moose.  The North American elk (cervus canadensis) is similar to the
European red deer.  The moose (alces americana) is native to Canada and the
northern United States, and does not occur naturally in Europe.

The moose is quite different in appearance from the North American elk, and
few who have seen a moose would ever mistake it for anything else.  Hunters
in areas where the moose is protected, or where the moose and elk seasons are
different, occasionally claim to have made such an error, but they usually 
receive large fines anyway.

Moose have been introduced into Colorado, and have been observed in the
backcountry quite near where I live.  A large elk herd also resides in the
area.

      John Cooley
      Somewhere in the foothills of the Rockies
From: shimeall@taurus.cs.nps.navy.mil (timothy shimeall)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: WAS: Mono Pass...     BEARS! (Oh my!)
Date: 20 Aug 92 22:13:03 GMT
Reply-To: shimeall@cs.nps.navy.mil (timothy shimeall)
Distribution: usa
Organization: Naval Postgraduate School, Monterey CA

I don't think bear cannisters would be practical for a large group.
(more than 3-4 people); most of them I've seen are too small and
carrying more than one or two would get prohibitive in terms of
weight. (I took 11 people on a 5-day trip last week, and everyone
started out at or above recommended weight maxima).

On the trip last week (To Pear Lake in Sequoia NP) we were required to
use a bear box (actually, to share one of the two bear boxes in camp).
This is a 2' x 2' x 5' side-hinged metal box, with clips to lock it
shut (and a sign on it forbidding any other locks).  I suspect that
the Park Service will be going more and more to these as time goes on.

It _was_ fairly convinient, and did protect the food from all mammal
nonhuman threats (we didn't see bears, but did see lots of mice,
chipmunks and a rather rotund marmot), but it got rather hot inside
(forget about keeping any fresh food in there) and it made things 
_very_ convinient for the local insect life (ants especially).
				Tim
-- 
Tim Shimeall ((408) 646-2509)
The proper response to detecting a bug isn't to fix the bug - it's to make 
sure you'll never have to worry about that bug again.  --- Richard Hamming
From: johnf@Auspex.COM (John Fereira)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Moose & Elk
Date: 19 Aug 92 23:32:00 GMT
Organization: Auspex Systems, Inc.

In article <9320077@hpdmd48.boi.hp.com> smay@hpdmd48.boi.hp.com (Scott Smay) writes:
|Throw that dictionary away. Elk are more like really big deer, with pointy
|noses and pointy antlers. Moose are like furry semi trailers on stilts, with
|big fat noses and palmated antlers ala Bullwinkle. Hope this description
|isn't too technical...

If Bullwinkle was mentioned along time ago we could have saved a lot of
bandwidth.

-- 
+============================================================================++
| John Fereira            "Is that all you ever think about?"                |
| johnf@auspex.com                                                           |
+============================================================================++
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: jahn@guinness.Idbsu.EDU (Greg Jahn)
Subject: Re: light weight coffee makers - (was: totally obnoxious camper w/o my espresso)
Keywords: nn
Reply-To: jahn@guinness.idbsu.edu
Organization: BSU - Data Center
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 22:27:45 GMT

In article <22188@venera.isi.edu>, sondeen@isi.edu (Jeff Sondeen) writes:
|>Does anyone know of a manual or battery-operated coffee bean grinder
|>available by mail order?  (for backpacking).
|>
|>Thanks.
|>--
|>/jeff

Well ... I woke up yesterday morning at a wonderful high altitude
lake and very happily pulled out my stove and bag of fresh ground
coffee for a chain-drinking caffeine morning.  Alas, I'd put the
bag of unground beans in my pack instead.  In a panic (chemically
dependant), I found a flat spot on the granite and a fist sized
rock and ground the beans a la naturale ... it worked ok.  I'd
say you need to put one third more roughly ground coffee in your
filter to get a comparably strong cup of coffee.  Truely stone
ground coffee.  btw, I washed the remaining coffee powder off of
the rock so that the next happy camper (and/or squirrell) wouldn't
be annoyed or confused ...

Frankly, I agree that it's ridiculous to not simply ground the 
beans beforehand and keep it sealed tightly in a zip-lock baggie.

---
Greg Jahn, Boise State Univ.|"In this selfish age, public-spirited
/ jahn@guinness.idbsu.edu / | acts were left to the individual, and
/ dosjahn@idbsu.bitnet    / | what could the individual do on his
/ (208)385-3891.thephone  / | own?"        - Adolfo Bioy Casares




Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: akins@cis.ohio-state.edu (gregory adkins)
Subject: Where is the FAQ
Originator: akins@flamingo.cis.ohio-state.edu
Organization: The Ohio State University, Department of Computer and Information Science
Distribution: na
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1992 02:34:43 GMT

Subject line says it all.  Where is the FAQ
for this newsgroup?

Thanks in advance
 -greg   akins@cis.ohio-state.edu
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: biesel@javelin.sim.es.com (Heiner Biesel)
Subject: Re: accessible = !wilderness (WAS Re: Oregon Wallowas
Organization: Evans & Sutherland Computer Corporation
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 20:29:11 GMT

AS.MSW@forsythe.stanford.edu (Marc Whitney) writes:

>There is some merit to the idea of a "semi-wilderness" area.  I have
>read that there have been instances of BLM or NFS pushing a road
>through an area just so it would no longer be "roadless" and hence
>not qualify for protection.  I've also heard of some group sueing
>against establishment of a wilderness designation on the basis that
>sometime in the 19th century there was a road!   If the alternative
>is some protection vs. no protection this might be a valid idea.  I
>would want some assurance that it would be difficult to use a
>"semi-wilderness" designation to downgrade a "wilderness"
>designation or sneak development into an area that was a legitamate
>candidate for a "wilderness" designation.
 
Here in Utah there are many sparsely populated areas, and large
tracts of wilderness. Some areas under consideration for wilderness
status are accessible via existing jeep trails. Several million
acres of land are under study, and on some list or other. Much of
this land was explored and mined by miners in the last century,
and is accessible by their old trails. Wilderness is ultimately
a subjective designation, and there should be degrees of it. Access
is the most visible and most divise aspect of this designation,
and the one that calls for a wise compromise between all those
affected.

Regards,
       H. Biesel.
From: johnf@Auspex.COM (John Fereira)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: WAS: Mono Pass...     BEARS! (Oh my!)
Date: 20 Aug 92 18:53:29 GMT
Organization: Auspex Systems, Inc.

In article <1992Aug19.210916.13958@lsil.com> gascan@dcst16.dc writes:
>>
>Would this happen to be the cinnamon brown that hung out around Lake Reflection
>(which is definitely above treeline) up until it was shot about a year or two ago?
>If so, then I was one of it's victims.  The bad news about bears in the back 
>country is that the park service takes the nastiest bears from the lowlands (where
>they run into idiots who teach them that people=food) away from where lots of people
>are to--guess where-- the high country where they prey on backpackers.

This is not true.  There is a place that I've been going into quite for 
quite a few years at the southern part of Sequoia National Forest.  This
one year there was a bear trap at the trailhead next to where we park our
cars.  I figured that they parked it there (it was basically a round metal
can with a grill on front that was sitting on a trailer) and would take it
into the backcountry.  When we came out of the backcountry after a few
days the local ranger (Tom Jeffries) was there with a guy that was wearing
a California Bear Control hat.  He was one of two people responsible for
bear control in the southern Sierras.  When we arrived they said, "Wanna
see the bear?"  In the trap was a "teenage" black bear.  We asked where
they had caught him and they said, "right here".  "Stick around", they said
we're about to let him go".  So we got up on top of my truck and watched as
they opened the grate.  He was still a bit groggy and didn't come out until
they prodded him a bit.  He lumbered off in the other direction and stopped
at a old horses watering trough about 30' away.  He got in it and took a 
quick bath and then wandered off into the woods.  We stayed and talked with
the bear control guy for quite awhile and he told us few interesting "bear
stories".  He said that this particular bear had been hanging around the
campsites lately.  They just wanted to trap him and tag him.  While 
tranquilized they also pulled a tooth (I guess bears get cavities too).  We
asked why they didn't take him into the backcountry and release him there.
He said they used to take bears from here up near Lodgpole (about a 50 mile
drive, 35-40 as the crow flies) but the bear would sometimes beat them back
to camp.  Those bears just love them pic-a-nic baskets and when they find
a spot where their readily available that's where they prefer to hang out.

-- 
+============================================================================++
| John Fereira            "Is that all you ever think about?"                |
| johnf@auspex.com                                                           |
+============================================================================++
From: Ecology Center Fund <ecologycntr@igc.apc.org>
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Date: 18 Aug 92 09:12 PDT
Subject: Re: Mono Pass area backpacking - INFO W
Nf-ID: #R:l8ibhfINNq1n@news.bbn.com:49229057:cdp:1449600023:000:109
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!ecologycntr    Aug 18 09:12:00 1992


Bloody Canyon holds upper and lower Sardine lakes, and Walker Lake
sits near the mouth of the canyon.

chris
From: marlatt@spot.Colorado.EDU (Stuart W. Marlatt)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Moose & Elk
Date: 18 Aug 92 22:45:58 GMT
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder

In article <7cc9023y1eQ301@JUTS.ccc.amdahl.com> jjh00@OUTS.ccc.amdahl.com (Joel J. Hanes) writes:
>  rhaar@albert.cs.gmr.com writes (incorrectly): (actually, correctly...)
>>
>> The North AMerican elk are more correctly called by the Indian name
>> wapiti - at least that is what a naturalist at RMNP told us.
>
>I hope you misunderstood.
>
>Wapiti is the Native American name for the Pronghorn "Antelope",
>a much smaller animal than Moose, American Elk, or European
>Elk.   Wapiti have distinctive short vertical antlers with
>sharp tips, and vivid rump patches.  American Elk have much
>larger curved antlers, and the male has a heavy rough
>shaggy coat about the neck and shoulders that bears no
>resemblance to the sleek wapiti at any time of year.
>
>Source: A Field Guide to the Mammals (of North America)
>        RT Petersen Field Guide series

I will go on record in disagreeing with RT Petersen - the
American Elk (aptly described in other posts) _is_ otherwise
known as wapiti. At least according to no less than the Denver
Museum of Natural History, the Colo. Fish and Game, and countless
other sources (and undoubtedly including the naturalist at
RMNP). I've lived in Colorado for more than 30 years, hunted
elk and pronghorn, and nowhere in the Rocky Mt. area have I
ever heard pronghorn refered to as wapiti. Methinks you have
misread - otherwise, get your money back on the book.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Datta, Dayadhvam. Damyata.                                                
		Shantih	shantih	shantih
  --T.S. Eliot, The Waste Land                                            
..............................................................................
s.w. marlatt, <><  &  *(:-)
University of Colorado:                   marlatt@spot.Colorado.edu  492-3939
National Center for Atmospheric Research: marlatt@neit.cgd.ucar.edu  497-1669
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: sawtelle@mariposa.stonecutter.com (Don Sawtelle)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: comments on Kelty packs? [Radial Sherpa]
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 92 09:37:59 PDT
Organization: Stonecutter Software
Reply-To: sawtelle@stonecutter.com
X-Mailer: uAccess - Macintosh Release: 1.5v4

In article <01050131.adm5sa@mariposa.stonecutter.com> (rec.backcountry), sawtelle@mariposa.stonecutter.com (Don Sawtelle) writes:
> I am trying to figure out which Kelty pack to get--Super Cirque, Radial
> Light, or Radial Sherpa--and would be interested in hearing from anyone
> who has opinions about them.

Thanks to everyone who replied. I tried the Radial Sherpa. I just
returned from a trip in Yosemite (White Wolf to Tuolumne). A few days
out the backband side seam separated and the top seam of the pocket on
the back of the "roof" tore lose also. The separations seem to be due
to too little (zero?) seam allowance. I always thought Kelty packs were
well built... not this one. Kind of ridiculous for such an
expensive pack to fall apart under light use.

---
Don Sawtelle:Stonecutter Software:Mariposa, CA
sawtelle@stonecutter.com
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: amirza@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (Anmar Caves)
Subject: Re: Public perceptions.
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 17:22:23 GMT

In article <1992Aug11.172326.26462@ncar.ucar.edu> chris@chinook.atd.ucar.edu writes:
>bobh@troy.uucp (22131-hettmansperger) writes:
>>
>>If you'd like to have a private email discussion on why I think it's snobbish 
>>to laugh at the inexperience and naivete of other people sharing our protected
>>lands, I'd be glad to.
>>
>>-Bob
>
>Actually, I'd like to hear this discussion.
>

I'll add a few thoughts (what the heck, I've been on vacation for a
couple of weeks, I'm nowhere near my quota for usenet postings).

When I take on an activity I am unfamiliar with,  I do a lot of
research,  I seek out knowledgeable people, classes, or other forms of
instruction.  I try to find out what the limits of my experience and
knowledge allow me to do safely.  In short, I put a lot of work into
it.  Anyone who approaches me with that type of attitude and is
interested in something I know about,  I have no problem teaching
them, or recommending where they can be taught if it's a subject on
which I don't feel I'm experienced enough to teach.  I'll use caving
as an example.  I often encounter people in a local "party" type cave.
They are often amazed to see someone with a helmet and helmet mounted
light.  I usually end up talking to a lot of them.  Most people just
want to know how to find some particular place or another.  I tell
these people how to find their way around the well traveled portion,
but no more.  Some want to know where else they can go caving.  I tell
these people how they can get ahold of our *two* local caving clubs.
I almost *never* see any of them show up.  We often laugh (later) at
their antics, or their lack of preparation.  Many times we end up
going to rescue those types of people.  Why do I laugh at it?  Because
I can't prevent them from being there, and I cannot be their "parent".
I made avenues open to them where, if they are serious about doing it,
they can get all the help they need.  If they are too lazy to make
an investment in time or energy, and not too large a one at that, then
I have no obligation to pave their way.  Is it snobbish?  Maybe.  Will
I continue to do it?  Damn right.


-- 
Anmar Mirza   # Mayor of Dogspit, IN  #My Opinions! Not IU's!# Will be
EMT-D         # Located somewhere in  # Legalize Explosives! # President
N9ISY (tech)  # the Outback of the    #I've got my own fusion# for Food
Networks Tech.# Mirza Ranch.C'mon over#plant. Just ask me.   #Space For Rent
From: dadams@cray.com (David Adams)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: pack animals
Date: 14 Aug 92 16:54:50 GMT
Reply-To: dadams@cray.com
Organization: Cray Research, Inc.


 allen%asylum.cs.utah.edu@cs.utah.edu (Allen Sanderson) writes:


|On a side note, I personally would like to see a national trail pass
|system initiated.  If ever person who used a trail who used a trail in
|National Park or Forest or BLM land paid $10.00 a year for trail
|maintainance can you immagine how much better of trail system would be ?

Na, it would get used up, same as entrance fees now, mostly for repairing 
water troughs and fences for cattle, and for repairing the dammage done to 
sensitive riprarian areas by, the cattle that are allowed to range on public 
land.  Increased fees would allow more cattle to range.  I oppose it.

Very little of the fee money from BLM land is left over for repairing 
or improving trails. 

|Naturally there would be a $25.00 fee for horses, $10.00-15.00 for
|other pack animals and of course one time fees for large groups.

I say make the cattle pay.  ;^)

---
--David C. Adams  Statistician  Cray Research Inc.  dadams@cray.com
___________________________________________________________________
       member--Minnesotans for Global Warming.
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: Glenn Stauffer <stauffer@cc.swarthmore.edu>
Subject: Re: Backcountry Coffee:  Heresy!!!!!!
X-Xxmessage-Id: <A6BB2A2927024333@mac1.beardsley.swarthmore.edu>
X-Xxdate: Fri, 21 Aug 92 04:18:01 GMT
Organization: Swarthmore College Computing Center
X-Useragent: Nuntius v1.1.1d9
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1992 03:18:29 GMT

In article <14067@auspex-gw.auspex.com> John Fereira, johnf@Auspex.COM
writes:
>On a recent fishing trip we were actually talking about how "regular"
>one is when out in the backcountry.  It dont' think it has anything to 
>do with instant vs. fresh brewed coffee.
>

From my experience, it might have something to do with the water...
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: ron@cup.hp.com (Ron Gould)
Subject: Re: Mono Pass area backpacking - INFO WANTED
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 21:27:12 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Cupertino, CA
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL3

FYI:

  There seems to be a little confusion here as to where Mono Pass is.
  There are two Mono Passes in the Sierra-Nevada that I know about,
  both are on the Sierra-Nevada crest.  One is the next pass south of 
  Tioga Pass and is approached from the east up Bloody Canyon which is
  just north (or NW) of the June Lake area.  The other one which I 
  believe is the one the original poster is interested in is further
  south and is approached from the east via Rock Creek (this is probably
  the more well known one).


Ron Gould
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry