From: elf@halcyon.com (Elf Sternberg)
Subject: Re: TWISTED LOGIC!
Originator: elf@halcyon.com
Organization: Pendor, UnLtd.
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 21:33:47 GMT

In article <1gu05dINN15b@mizar.usc.edu>
     adolphso@mizar.usc.edu (adolphson) writes:

>In article <18DEC199217413519@zeus.tamu.edu> 
>crr4574@zeus.tamu.edu (LARUE, CHARLES L.) writes:

>> What species has members that engage in exclusively homosexual behavior? 
>> Or are there any examples of animals which mate for life engaging in 
>> exclusive homosexual behavior? 

To which adolphson accurately replies:

>  Who cares?

   More to the point, why does Charles Larue argue that it "can't" be
natural for animals to engage in exclusive homosexual behavior?
After all, there is a very clear example of a species that does engage
in exclusive homosexual behavior, for life.  Because this species does
have members that engage in exclusive homosexual behavior, and this has
been comprhensively documented and demonstrated, I argue that
homosexuality is natural for this species.

   Homo Sapiens Sapiens.

>>     I do believe that homosexuality is wrong. 
>>     Tell me why I am wrong to believe this.

   All we can hope, Charles, is to demonstrate to you that we are as
human, as natural, as much a part of this world as you are.  We are
your friends, your neighbors, your co-workers, and possibly even your
children.

   Why do you beleive homosexuality is wrong?  From where does this
judgement come?  Tell us that, and maybe we'll have a handle on where
your feelings come from.

>>  I cannot imagine any place in the country where 10% of the 
>> people are gay. 

>Why don't you come visit me?  I live in West Hollywood, where
>over 30% of the population is gay or lesbian.

   Come visit metropolitan Seattle, where an estimated 10% of the
population is *openly* exclusively homosexual and where an additional
5 to 10% is estimated to be made up of mostly heterosexual bisexuals
and closet cases.  Where the one of the largest commerce group in the
city is the Gay Seattle Businesses Administration.  Come visit me (I
live in Burien, a small town just south of Seattle), where my upstairs
neighbors are four men, two straight, two gay; where my nextdoor
neighbors are (in order), a lovely retired heterosexual couple, a
lesbian threesome, and then two gay men who've been as married as
society will allow for over twenty years.  Where I can't walk through
the city without seeing a pink triangle.  Where the nearby cafeteria is
run by lesbians.

>> I probably know several thousand people and I know damn well 
>> 10% of them aren't gay.

>I can't say that my circle of friends and acquaintances is as
>large as yours, but of the 50 or so people I socialize with
>on any regular basis, only 5 or 6 are straight.

   Let's see... Out of my .elm/aliases file, (111 names), six are
organizations and one is Rush Limbaugh... excluding _those_, less than
half of the people in there are exclusively heterosexual.  It used to
be almost exactly half, but I seduced and/or recruited three in the
past year...

   Perhaps the most interesting question that hasn't been asked here
is, "Of the several thousand people you know, how many have denied
themselves potentially fulfilling and affirming homosexual
relationships because of social censure?  If there were less people
saying 'I hate homosexuals,' how much happier would those people be?"

>> I just think this echoes how the general population feels. 

>Ah.  I see.

   Fascinating how you feel qualified to give us The Word Of The People
without being elected to the office of God first.  And look how you
worded it, Charles!  Am I not part of the "general population?" I have
a wife and a dog and a shotgun, I vote and I pay taxes, I listen to
country music and I read Playboy.

   But I'm not part of the "general population," eh?  Just because I
once in a while fuck men.  

>> I also feel that you need solid references if you want to be taken 
>> seriously.

   Let's start with a less-than-solid reference: "The Playboy Survey,"
(Peterson, Kretchner, Nellis, Lever, and Hertz: Playboy Magazine, March
1983).  35% of 65,000 men who answered the survey and 20% of the 15,000
women revealed having had *at least one* homosexual encounter resulting
in orgasm.  Most of these encounters occured in adolescence.  And these
were people reading Playboy, of all things!

   Also, try these:

   Kinsey, Pomeroy, and Martin, 1948.  "The Kinsey Report on Male
       Sexuality."
   Kinsey, Powery, Martin, and Gebhard, 1953.  "The Kinsey Report on
       Female Sexuality."
   Leif, H.I.,1982  "Current Thinking on Homosexuality."
   MCary, R.C., 1982.  "Human Sexuality."
   Rosen, D.H., 1974. "Female Homosexuality."
   Weinberg and Bell, 1972.  "Homosexuality."
   Weinberg and Williams, 1974.  "Male Homosexuality."

   I *have* read all of these, quite comprehensively.  You wanna argue
with us, come back when you an say the same.  And yes, I've read the
Bible too.  And the Koran.  And the Baghavad-Gita.  And the Tao of
Lao-Tsu.  The last has been of the most use to me.

>Solid references?  Take it from me (and who would know better?): I 
>have always been, am now, and will always be a homosexual. 

   And, for this, we should all be thankful!

   "For a given behavior to be considered a psychiatric disorder,
   it should regularly cause emotional distress or regularly be
   associated with generalized impairment of social functioning.
   Homosexuality does not meet these critera."
         - McCary, quoting the decision to remove Homosexuality
           from the DSM-III.

>Arne

         Elf !!!
--
elf@halcyon.com  (Elf Sternberg)

Then, I was inspired.               God, thy will is hard
Now, I'm sad and tired.             But you hold every card.
Listen, surely I've exceeded        I will drink your cup of poison.
Expectations.                       Nail me to your cross and break me.
Tried for three years,              Bleed me, beat me.
Seems like thirty.                  Kill me.
Could you ask as much               Take me now.
From any other man?                 Before I change my mind.
Newsgroups: alt.politics.homosexuality