From: kevin@nuchat.sccsi.com (Kevin Brown)
Subject: Re: Reconciling OT with NT
Organization: I can't see any in the immediate vicinity...
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 22:29:26 GMT

In article <1992Dec16.122131.12824@waikato.ac.nz> arron@waikato.ac.nz writes:
>> Let me undertstand this:  *ONE* act of disobediance is enough to
>> convict the entire human race including all those who have not yet been
>> born.  Yet, Charles Manson, Adolf Hitler and Jeffrey Dahmer could be
>> granted ever-lasting life if they just accept Christ.  Is that right?
>> 
>> And you're happy about this system?
>> 
>
>Yes ... *ONE* is enough, as at the time it was the ONLY possible Sin they could
>have done. Other than that they were walking with God, sharing and walking in
>His ways.
>
>As for Hitler ... he didn't (as far as I know) change from his EVIL way, but
>had he done so ... maybe he could have been forgiven. If there was nothing God
>couldn't forgive, after a bit of repentance, then there would be people who
>couldn't get to heaven, and that WOULDN'T be fair !!!!
>
>> Excuse me, up to that point Adam and Eve had only done *one* thing wrong.
>> And it didn't even hurt anyone.  It's not like they drowned the entire
>> world on a flood, or ordered the children of another tribe slaughtered.
>> 
>
>They brought sin into the world, they caused the problem, God just tried
>to keep the evil in check. 

This, of course, is totally bogus, unless you wish to assert that your
God is a wimp.

Because if your God isn't a wimp, then your God *defines* cause and effect.
Sin being brought into the world was an effect of the actions of Adam and
Eve, an effect which your God could just as easily have removed.  That this
particular effect was associated with that particular cause was YOUR GOD'S
OWN DOING.  Your God didn't *have* to set things up that way, but your God 
*chose* to do so.

In fact, it's *God's* fault that there was a means towards that end to begin
with.  Your God *could* have arranged for the apple to simply not have ever
been there, right?  Your God *could* have refrained from telling them not to
eat it to begin with, right?  Your God *could* have arranged things such that
the only consequences of eating the apple were that Adam and Eve gained a
little knowledge.  But no.  Your God *had* to attach a moral consequence to
the act of eating an apple.  What a silly and stupid thing to do.

>> And Adam and Eve hiding in the bushes isn't evidence that they were aware
>> they had done wrong?
>
>The words go 'We were afraid', no repentance, just fear as far as I can see.
>It's the getting RIGHT with God that really matters.

Well, gee.  If Adam and Eve were afraid of God, they must have had a reason,
right?  If the didn't know that they had done any wrong, then that must mean
that they were afraid of God for some other reason, right?  Well, I must say,
given the Bible's documentation of the nature of your God, I would say that
they had good reason to fear your God, whether or not they had done anything
wrong.

>> OK, I'm not perfect.
>
>Great ... neither am I, I have asked forgiveness from God ... so what are you
>going to do about it ????

Well, instead of wasting his time by asking an apparently nonexistent entity
for forgiveness, he'll probably try to improve.  Works for me.

>> No, no.  I mean proof that there is a god waiting.  Not proof that someone
>> said there was a god waiting.
>
>I'm afraid that unless you look and see with your own eyes, there will never be
>any proof good enough for you (short the second coming, which I really hope for
>your sake isn't soon)

Substantial physical evidence in a well-established peer-reviewed
scientific journal would be good enough for me...

>> Wait a sec, you said you knew how to communicate with him.  Why can't he
>> communicate *my* way?  Isn't he capable of it?
>
>Now here's where I need a little faith. Yes God can speak to you clearly and 
>in a way you can understand (eg. voice/angels/miracles/revelation/miraculous
>appearance). I will pray that God does do that. If God doesn't 'show up' I have
>my own understanding as to why not. This is what explains it to me, this is not
>and argument to convince you, so if you think it's Christian clap-trap ...
>tough !!!! If God proved to you, without reasonable doubt that he is real, and
>exactly ther character of God in the bible you would HAVE to accept him, 

No he wouldn't.  People ignore things that are proven to them beyond a
reasonable doubt all the time.  For instance, many ignore the fact that
the Shroud of Turin has been dated to the 12th century (if I recall
correctly.  Somewhere around there, anyway).

>no
>free choice, no faith, no reasoning required. Have faith that God exists and he
>will reveal himself clearly, if you don't it is only God may reveal himself to
>change you, (to help you be saved) or he will continue to work in you until you
>die a lost sole, or finally realise the truth.

Snicker.  Yeah, right.

Just think:  Squeek, the Great Mouse God, wants *you* to have faith in
him.  Now, he won't reveal himself to you unless you have faith that he
exists, and if you *don't* have faith then....well, let's just say that
you'll be only so much cheese to him.

>> Geez, it's not gonna be one of these "You can't see him but he's all
>> around us <wink><wink>" things, is it?  If so, tell him to forget it.  If
>> he can't face me directly then don't bother.
>
>He can face you directly, but even the great OT prophets couldn't look face to
>face with God, can you face him ????

If your God wants me to be able to look face-to-face with him, I'll be able
to do it.  Unless, of course, your God is too much of a wimp to make that
possible...

>> Like I said, if he'd been so patient with Adam and Eve after *one* little
>> transgression we'd have avoided the whole mess.
>
>Dead point ... God can commune with the sinful, if you do not have some type of
>sacrifice (cows/birds/goats/sheep and finally the one Christ) to lay your sins
>on to, you can not be near him, he had to reject what was wrong.

Yeah, right.  Your God can deal with whomever/whatever it wants.  Unless,
of course, you insist that your God is too much of a wimp to do this.

>>>That's exactly what he WILL do, it's all documented in the Bible.
>> 
>> Then what are we worried about.  Party down!
>
>Christ said ... 'No man can come to the Father accept by me' I sought, I found,
>and I know this to be true. 

FOR YOU, perhaps.  Now, just why do you think that what works for you is
guaranteed to work for everyone?

>*******************************************************************************
>from:arron@waikato.ac.nz			Arron Scott
>						University of Waikato
>*******************************************************************************


-- 
Kevin Brown					kevin@nuchat.sccsi.com
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