From: linan@argon.berkeley.edu (Mike Linan)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.animals
Subject: Hunter's legitimate concern
Date: 28 Jul 1992 17:46:25 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: argon.berkeley.edu


Subject: Re: Hunters legitimate concern

In article <BrtqK4.808@wpg.com> russ@wpg.com (Russell Lawrence) writes:

>From article <14268mINNr51@agate.berkeley.edu>, by linan@argon.berkeley.edu (Mike Linan):
>ml> It's apparant that Dreamer here is not going to listen to reason, 
>ml> facts or anything else that might blow away his preconceived 
>ml> notion that hunting is a bad thing and those who hunt are also 
>ml> bad.  I imagine it is a total waste of time trying to convince 
>ml> someone like Dreamer to open their eyes and try to at least make 
>ml> an informed decision on the issue.  As it is it's painfully 
>ml> obvious that he really has no appreciable knowledge of what he is 
>ml> discussing.  

>Russell Lawrence writes:
>rl> I agree with you that everyone should listen to facts and reason.

>rl> Unfortunately, many people choose to ignore empirical and rational
>rl> arguments whenever and whereever those arguments conflict with their
>rl> own peculiar beliefs.
 
>rl> I have a question for you, Mr Linan: Are you willing to listen to 
>rl> facts and reason?  Or, do you still contend that beliefs and 
>rl> truths are one and the same?  eg, "I believe it, therefore it 
>rl> must be true".  

>From article <14kbopINNcke@agate.berkeley.edu>, by linan@argon.berkeley.edu (Mike Linan):
>ml> I think most people feel their beliefs are the truth and have no reason
>ml> to believe otherwise unless evidence is produce to prove their beliefs
>ml> wrong.  Often times it is not that black and white though.

>Perhaps.  Let's suppose that you were confronted by a woman who 
>told you that she was a messenger of the Goddess Diana and that 
>Diana had instructed her to tell you that your hunting practices 
>are offensive, not only to Diana herself, but to the rest of the Olympian 
>Gods as well.  In view of the fact that you'd be hardpressed to 
>disprove such claims, would you consider them to be examples of 
>"facts and reason"?  


Am I supposed to know or care who this Goddess Diana is?   I follow my
own beliefs and I consider them every bit as important and valid as yours
or anybody else's.


>To the extent that we confuse mere beliefs with facts and reason,
>are we not allowing ourselves to be mislead by all sorts of lies
>and insanities?


What "facts and reason" and what "lies and insanities" are you speaking of
Russell?  Exactly how do you view us being mislead in the context of this
discussion?


>rl> As an example, do you still believe that cattle/dairy farming in
>rl> California have had no bearing on the water shortages over the past
>rl> few years?   

>ml> I don't think I ever said cattle had "no" bearing on the water 
>ml> shortage in California.  What I did was dispute the claim that 
>ml> there would not be a shortage if it wasn't for cattle and I 
>ml> disputed that cattle production was the major source of water 
>ml> consumption...  I am suspect of the 
>ml> motives of many ARs who all too often attack the activities they 
>ml> do not agree with first without looking at the big picture with 
>ml> an open mind.  

>Are you sure that it's the AR advocates, and not yourself, who's 
>guilty of failing to see the big picture?

 
In this case and on these issues here on t.p.a. yes, I reasonably sure that
the hunters have given at least as much consideration as most ARs and have 
demonstrated the ability to not let emotion cloud their perspective of the
overall "big picture".


>Russell Lawrence, WP Group, New Orleans (504) 443-5000


Mike Linan