HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: beigel-richard@CS.YALE.EDU (Richard Beigel)
Subject: Re: Montreal news of Fabricant 1
Organization: Yale University, Department of Computer Science
Distribution: na
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1992 18:56:19 GMT


In article <4877@daily-planet.concordia.ca>, adam@concour.cs.concordia.ca (Adam Steele) writes:
|> Fabrikant had asked many people at Concordia - including the rector,
|> the dean, and his chairman - to sign his gun permit (actually the
|> permit to transport his gun).  It seems that this was one of his
|> intimidation tactics.

The idea that following required legal procedure is an intimidation
tactic is fascinating.  Can you elaborate on this?


-- 
Richard Beigel			telephone:  (203)432-1228
Dept. of Computer Science	email:  beigel-richard@cs.yale.edu
P.O. Box 2158, Yale Station	campus mail:  A. K. Watson Hall
New Haven, CT  06520-2158		      51 Prospect Street
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: moore@theory.chem.ubc.ca (Brian Moore)
Subject: Re: Hiring quotas and faculty positions
Organization: University of British Columbia, Vancouver, B.C., Canada
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 16:35:53 GMT

A comment about the hiring of minorities, women, etc. for faculty positions:
the current job climate seems to me to be an important factor.  I have 
heard older faculty in years past bemoan the fact that they *would*
hire more under-represented groups if only they got some qualified
applicants.  Presumably, at least some of these people were telling
the truth, and now that they are getting many, many qualified
people to choose from, they are taking this opportunity to do what
they said they always wanted to do.

--
Brian Moore
Chemistry Department, University of British Columbia
moore@theory.chem.ubc.ca

Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: stgprao@st.unocal.COM (Richard Ottolini)
Subject: Re: New Topic
Organization: Unocal Corporation
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 22:37:49 GMT

In article <135922@lll-winken.LLNL.GOV> slim@tazdevil.llnl.gov (Scott Whitman) writes:
>
>Well, I accepted a post-doc position here at LLNL in 1990 and started
>in early 1991.  At the time, I had never heard of anyone doing a
>post-doc in CS but now it seems to be a trend.  I originally had 3
>offers (one of which was this post-doc) but I turned down the other
>two since I thought I would be able to do more research in this position.
>I have seen several recent postings for post-doc positions.  Actually,
>I beleive there is a parallel programming post-doc position here at
>the lab, you might want to give personnel a call (510) 422-0808.
>Also, ICASE at NASA Langley is a good place (don't have the phone
>number at the moment) and I've heard IBM TJ Watson may have positions.
>Salary for industry post-docs is better than academia, by the way.
>But, these positions really are just a way station until you find a
>full time position.  Because of the glut, I think the only academic
>positions available are to those who have published alot and the
>school really wants *you* for your particular skills.  The job market
>has definitely gotten worse in my opinion since 1989.  But, by
>networking, you can still find jobs out there.  I've even seen Ph.D.
>positions posted on misc.jobs.offered.

According to a recent Science article, some recent computer science faculty 
openings have had triple-digit applications.
Ten years ago there were triple-digit faculty positions.

IMHO it is better to do something you are interested in and be among the
best in the world at that rather than chasing fleeting job trends.
You can probably find a job then anyways and you'll enjoy it too.
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: gilligan@bldrdoc.gov (Jonathan M. Gilligan)
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
Subject: Re: Stigma was Re: Hiring quotas and faculty positions
Date: 15 Sep 92 22:51:45 GMT
Organization: National Institute of Standards and Technology

In article <1992Sep14.020325.710@msc.cornell.edu> hillyard@lynx.msc.cornell.edu.UUCP (Sean Edward Hillyard,F7 Clark,50649,) writes:
|>From article <13SEP199218540241@vtcc1.cc.vt.edu>, by merolajs@vtcc1.cc.vt.edu (JOSEPH S. MEROLA DEPT OF CHEMISTRY VPI&SU):
|>> In article <1992Sep13.215754.28594@msc.cornell.edu>, hillyard@lynx.msc.cornell.edu.UUCP (Sean Edward Hillyard,F7 Clark,50649,) writes...
|>>>From the _Ithaca Journal_ sep 1, 92 without permission
|>
|>>>"In situations where women typically are discriminated against," said
|>>>Heilman, "being associated with affirmative action makes it worse.  And
|>>>in situations where the women wouldn't be discriminated against, it
|>>>creates a problem."
|>> 
|>> What this is saying is that the kinds of attitudes which makes
|>> affirmative action necesarry are still there and when they cannot be
|>> brought to bear to block a hire, they are still there in force to
|>> try and scuttle someone's career.  The above clearly shows that
|>> sexism is rampant in the rating of resumes and gets even worse when
|>> the term affirmative action is applied.
|>
|>No, its shows that AA fosters the attitudes its trying to compensate for,
|>even in places where attitudes otherwise would have been good.  So if you're
|>place of work would have been non-sexist, its not anymore if AA programs
|>begin.

I interpret this to mean that people are ready to judge women (and by
extension, racial minorities) negatively by other criteria than their
abilities and accomplishments.  As soon as the label AA is affixed
(whether or not AA was actually used in hiring that person), people
seem to close their eyes to the actual merits of the individual.  This
says to me that people are judging against women according to other
criteria than their abilities, and that some countervailing force is
needed.

---Jon
-- 

Disclaimer --- The government probably disagrees with my opinions.
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers,soc.culture.asian.american
From: achin@math.tamu.edu (Andrew Chin)
Subject: Asian-American success (was Re: Hiring quotas and faculty positions)
Reply-To: achin@math.tamu.edu
Organization: Dept of Mathematics, Texas A&M University
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 23:41:10 GMT

For s.c.a.a readers:  the age-old affirmative action debate has infected
sci.research.careers.  Let's tune in:

In article 3354@tc.cornell.edu, bai@msiadmin.cit.cornell.edu (Dov Bai-MSI Visitor) writes:
>Here you are making the assumption that if one's teachers and 
>upbringing were inferior, then this person is cannt become
>a scientist. But is this assumption correct ? I dont think so. 
>
>Few months ago there was a report in Scientific American on a study on
>Vietamese refugees. The group under study came to the US in the 60's
>with literally nothing but their clothes. their parents were uneducated
>They settled in the Bronx, NY, and their children studied in the worst 
>public schools, with blacks. It turned out that the children were 
>ranked very high nationally in math and sciences. No affirmative action
>were applied to them.
>
>Remember also that many successful ethnical groups in the US were 
>discriminated against (like the Japanese Americans and other Asian groups)
>in the past, and they reached high level of achievement without 
>any affirmative action benefits. 

Before you further promulgate the "model minority" myth, you should note
that the most successful post-'60s Asian-American immigrants were already
from the professional and academic classes.  They did not "reach" high
achievement; they merely replicated it.  Starting from slavery and social
immobility, African-Americans have had much farther to "reach" in 1-2
generations.

It is also important to recognize that these Asian-American success stories
are a smaller part of the picture than most people recognize.

Most Hmong and Cambodian immigrants do not start from a professional/academic
experience, and to lump them in with the "Asian-American success story" is to 
dismiss the great discrimination and disadvantages they suffer.

On the other end of the scale, Asian-Americans received fewer than 2 percent 
of the new PhD's in mathematics awarded last year by US universities.
Unfortunately, we routinely get mistaken for foreign citizens, so that where
there is affirmative action for "underrepresented" minorities and preference
for US citizens, Asian-Americans are the most disadvantaged among all US 
ethnic groups.
---
Andrew Chin    Dept. of Math.    Texas A&M U.    College Station, TX 77843
achin@math.tamu.edu   Probably not TAMU's exact opinions.   (409) 845-0261
                * Fighting racism is not a special interest *

Newsgroups: sci.research.careers,soc.culture.canada
From: ray@philmtl.philips.ca (Ray Dunn)
Subject: Re: News of Fabrikant - 3
Organization: On the Brew.
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 05:08:19 GMT

In referenced article, masticol@cadenza.rutgers.edu (Steve Masticola) writes:
>ray@philmtl.philips.ca (Ray Dunn) writes:
>[ Fabrikant:]
>>"Violence is not being produced by itself out of nothing.  This particular
>>act of violence was carefully planned and nurtured and I have documents for
>>that."
>That makes it first-degree murder. It appears that the man is trying,
>successfully, to self-destruct.

He is probably trying to say that *others* planned and nurtured the
violence by, essentially, not letting him have his own way even when he
threatened violence.

>Does Canada have the death penalty?

No
-- 
Ray Dunn at home    |    ray@philmtl.philips.ca    |    (514) 630 3749
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: gillies@m.cs.uiuc.edu (Don Gillies)
Subject: Re: Hiring quotas and faculty positions
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept. of Comp. Sci., Urbana, IL
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 19:47:40 GMT

Anecdotal sampling of the resident faculty in a department means
nothing.  Women or minorities might be hired 50% of the time, and it
might be that 80% of all such persons hired do not make tenure.  This
would lead to approximately 10% representation on the faculty, and you
would claim that the hiring was "fair".  In fact, the hiring would be
highly biased towards the women/minorities, just to find someone who
was qualified.

Meanwhile, many people who unfortunately fall into the majority get
screwed for the sins of their ancestors.  The moral is: two wrongs
make a right.




-- 



Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: drraymon@watdragon.uwaterloo.ca (Darrell Raymond)
Subject: Re: Hiring quotas and faculty positions (Repost #2)
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1992 23:13:35 GMT

In article <12SEP199216440752@jetson.uh.edu>, schieber@jetson.uh.edu (Schieber, Jay D.) writes:
> 
> How horrible that faculty should have social agendas! We should
> simply do our jobs designing those purification processes for
> uranium-238, 
	.
	.
> Faculty are privileged members of privileged groups of (hopefully)
> very intelligent people that should be thinking constantly about
> how they can benefit society.  

  As at least one other poster has indicated, this sort of activity can 
easily backfire in the long term. Some of the academics who developed 
the atomic bomb had a very explicit social agenda, and were trying to 
benefit society.  Some of them were even foolish enough to think that 
the incredible power of this bomb would end war.

  Most academics know a lot about a very small area.  There is little 
reason to think this skill translates into above average judgement about 
what will benefit society, or even into good judgement about their own 
personal actions.  Take Heidegger and Paul de Man as examples.

-Darrell.
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: yjj@janus.ctr.columbia.edu (Yuan Jiang)
Subject: Re: Stigma was Re: Hiring quotas and faculty positions
Organization: Columbia University Center for Telecommunications Research
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 16:45:55 GMT
X-Posted-From: janus.ctr.columbia.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In article <14SEP199206453361@vtcc1.cc.vt.edu> merolajs@vtcc1.cc.vt.edu (JOSEPH S. MEROLA DEPT OF CHEMISTRY VPI&SU) writes:
>In article <1992Sep14.031322.9003@tc.cornell.edu>, bai@msiadmin.cit.cornell.edu (Dov Bai-MSI Visitor) writes...
>following question:  Articles such as the Ithaca Journal one
>posted earlier show that there are still problems where
>women's applications are not taken seriously.  My own

There is no reason to use current wrongs to compensate the past wrongs,
and there is no reason to commit this wrong in order to correct other wrongs.
Xref: sparky sci.research.careers:1079 soc.culture.canada:6528
From: beaurega@ireq.hydro.qc.ca (Denis Beauregard)
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers,soc.culture.canada
Subject: Re: RFD: soc.intense.study.of.fabrikant
Date: 13 Sep 92 15:51:35 GMT
Organization: Institut de recherche d'Hydro-Quebec, Varennes, Canada

In article <1992Sep9.233629.6358@ucsu.Colorado.EDU> knapp@spot.Colorado.EDU (David Knapp) writes:
>
>He has had more traffic than most other groups on the net. He deserves
>his own group. Not bitching mind you.
>
>
>-- 
>David Knapp                                      University of Colorado, Boulder
>Perpetual Student                                   knapp@spot.colorado.edu

You should try alt.fabrikant
alt.* groups are far less restrictive on creation this is why most
bogus groups are alt.something).

-- 
  \_\    Denis Beauregard  *  internet:beaurega@ireq.hydro.qc.ca
 /   \   Genealogiste officiel : Beauregard/Jarret/Jarest/Vincent
J   __>  Un Quebec renouvele dans une Amerique renovee
\_.-===                                                  Opinions ? Et pis non !
From: merolajs@vtcc1.cc.vt.edu (JOSEPH S. MEROLA DEPT OF CHEMISTRY VPI&SU)
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
Subject: Re: Hiring quotas and faculty positions
Date: 11 Sep 92 20:15:00 GMT
Organization: Virginia Tech, Blacksburg, Virginia
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <1992Sep11.194740.29743@m.cs.uiuc.edu>, gillies@m.cs.uiuc.edu (Don Gillies) writes...
>Anecdotal sampling of the resident faculty in a department means
>nothing.  Women or minorities might be hired 50% of the time, and it
>might be that 80% of all such persons hired do not make tenure.  This
>would lead to approximately 10% representation on the faculty, and you
>would claim that the hiring was "fair".  In fact, the hiring would be
>highly biased towards the women/minorities, just to find someone who
>was qualified.
> 
>Meanwhile, many people who unfortunately fall into the majority get
>screwed for the sins of their ancestors.  The moral is: two wrongs
>make a right.


The funny thing here is that,  in a job search that had 150 "majority"
applicants and a number of minority applicants, ALL 150 "majority"
applicants will feel screwed if a minority gets the position.  ALL 150
will claim that they would have gotten the job but that affirmative
action forced "them" to hire a minority.  Well, we know that that 
can't be the case.  

The other funny thing here is the concept that you are being screwed 
for the sins of your ancestors.  I guess that is one way of looking at
it, but then you are getting screwed for lots of sins of your
ancestors.  Maybe you would have gotten that job if your parents had
been richer and you could have afforde to go to Harvard instead of
X State. To me, the concept of affirmative action is not to punish
the majority for the sins of their ancestors, but to help those who
have not had access to all of the opportunities that the majority
had.  There was an excellent post here today that spoke to that issue.

Joseph S. Merola
Department of Chemistry
Virginia Tech (aka VPI&SU)

Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: stgprao@st.unocal.COM (Richard Ottolini)
Subject: Re: comment on AA and faculties
Organization: Unocal Corporation
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 20:51:38 GMT

In article <1992Sep14.161008.12255@engage.pko.dec.com> bechtler@asdg.enet.dec.com (Laurie Bechtler) writes:
>
>As a graduate of an electrical engineering program (PhD), I find
>this discussion interesting.  At my school it was clear that
>Americans (almost all white male) were being accepted for admission
>who had clearly inferior academic backgrounds than many of the
>foreign students.  As with the posted UC Berkeley example, the
>university/department decides that for a whole host of reasons,
>a certain mix of students is desired, and admissions are made that
>might not fit some posters' idea of the "best" candidates.  

I don't think a foreigner of the same ethnic group as an Affirmative Action
minority is considered part of the minority in discrimination clauses.
I was on an graduate admissions committee that preferentially admitted Americans
because (1) they generally had better communications skills and (2) employers
preferred hiring those kind of graduates because of reduced paperwork.
The preference is mainly academic, because very few Americans apply anyways
anymore.
From: srw@horus.ps.uci.edu (Steven White)
Subject: Re: Hiring quotas and faculty positions (Repost #2)
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
Reply-To: srw@horus.ps.uci.edu (Steven White)
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: 13 Sep 92 22:23:59 GMT

In article <BuHn6n.LF4@watdragon.uwaterloo.ca>, drraymon@watdragon.uwaterloo.ca (Darrell Raymond) writes:
|> In article <12SEP199216440752@jetson.uh.edu>, schieber@jetson.uh.edu (Schieber, Jay D.) writes:
|> > 
|> > Faculty are privileged members of privileged groups of (hopefully)
|> > very intelligent people that should be thinking constantly about
|> > how they can benefit society.  
|> 
|>   Most academics know a lot about a very small area.  There is little 
|> reason to think this skill translates into above average judgement about 
|> what will benefit society, or even into good judgement about their own 
|> personal actions.  Take Heidegger and Paul de Man as examples.
|> 
|> -Darrell.

Just because academics know a lot about a very small area does not
mean they know little about other areas. Look at people like
Stephen J. Gould, Lester Thurow, Richard Feynman, Linus Pauling...
In these people the same exceptional intelligence that made them
outstanding academics in their area gave them exceptional understanding 
of many other things.

Do you think you can make a case for some other profession having
better judgement? Lawyers? Politicians? Business executives?

					-Steve White
From: paj@uk.co.gec-mrc (Paul Johnson)
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
Subject: Re: Hiring quotas and faculty positions (Repost #2)
Date: 14 Sep 92 10:53:47 GMT
Reply-To: paj@uk.co.gec-mrc (Paul Johnson)
Organization: GEC-Marconi Research Centre, Great Baddow, UK

In article <12SEP199219100161@vtcc1.cc.vt.edu> merolajs@vtcc1.cc.vt.edu (JOSEPH S. MEROLA DEPT OF CHEMISTRY VPI&SU) writes:

>[...] However, in another case, we found that there were female
>candidates who ranked right up there [...]  a good opportunity to
>increase the value of our faculty with respect to role modelling and
>a number of other intangible issues.

Here I must agree with you.  I had not previously considered that
there might be good reasons for wanting a woman or ethnic minority in
a faculty position.  If, because of gender or other reasons, an
applicant would make a better teacher despite having less academic
ability then by all means hire the best candidate for the job.

However I still object to quota-based programs.

Paul.
-- 
Paul Johnson (paj@gec-mrc.co.uk).	    | Tel: +44 245 73331 ext 3245
--------------------------------------------+----------------------------------
These ideas and others like them can be had | GEC-Marconi Research is not
for $0.02 each from any reputable idealist. | responsible for my opinions
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: bauwens@acs.ucalgary.ca (Luc Bauwens)
Subject: Re: Hiring quotas and faculty positions (Repost #2)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 92 00:09:34 GMT
Organization: The University of Calgary, Alberta

In article <1992Sep11.212919.5418@msc.cornell.edu> hillyard@msc.cornell.edu writes:
>From article <5507@dove.nist.gov>, by gilligan@bldrdoc.gov (Jonathan M. Gilligan
>):
>[...]
>>
>> Let's add to the list.
>>
>> Why should young people today in the US have to pay for a national
>> debt that was incurred by their elders in Congress and the White
>> House? I say, let's default on it rather than pay it.
>
>Many other countries have done this.  Why don't we?  Because it would probably
>end us costing the US more at this time.

I think this issue requires some comments.  There are two distincts
concepts, the foreign debt and the public (or national, or federal,
or state, or municipal etc...) debt.

The foreign debt of a country typically will include both public and
private components.  Since it will involve currency exchange, the
central bank (in the US, the Federal Reserve Board) will be involved.

A proper yardstick to evaluate its weight on a country's economy is
its GNP ot its GDP.

There have been countries that have talked about defaulting, and
some countries are actually in default.

The public debt is largely domestic, even in copuntries such as
Brazil or the United States that carry a large foreign debt.  It is
also typically much larger than the foreign debt.  To default would
actually mean that the government would actually decide that things
like treasury bills will no longer be repaid.

As for the justification to carry public debt to the next generations,
obviously if it's to pay expenses that are long gone, of course
it's not right.  But if the money that's being borrowed is
invested in infrastructure that is mostly going to be used by
future generations, then it's only right that they should pay for it.

Luc B

Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: hillyard@lynx.msc.cornell.edu.UUCP (Sean Edward Hillyard,F7 Clark,50649,)
Subject: Re: Hiring quotas and faculty positions (Repost #2)
Originator: hillyard@msc2.msc.cornell.edu
Organization: Cornell-Materials-Science-Center
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1992 03:06:30 GMT

From article <1992Sep12.225349.24333@ucsu.Colorado.EDU>, by andersmh@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (ANDERSON  MIKE HOWARD):
[...]
> 
> 
> I agree, here.  The concepts "less" and "best" qualified are simply
> ridiculous.  They seem to be very ingrained, judging from the posting.
> 
[...]

I think I tended to word it as best, or most able candidate.  I tend to
think this person does actually exist.  If you could take a crystal ball and
see the exact results of hiring each separate individual, one of the
candidates would likely stand out as the best (even if its just the one
that didn't get hit by a car a year later :) ).  Since nobody can tell the
future the trick is to try and pick that person from the data you are able
to access.  I think race/sex is an irrelevant criteria and that the more
irrelevant criteria you use the more likely you are not to get the 'best
applicant'.

SEH
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers