HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: clin@eng.umd.edu (Charles C. Lin)
Subject: Re: What can we have for an educational system?
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 92 23:25:44 GMT
Organization: College of Engineering, Maryversity von Uniland, College Park
Originator: clin@state.eng.umd.edu



    One problem with education is that is has a fairly low stature among
those who would like to particiapte, and that education is something that
requires a lot of people.   Given that the "best" students choose not
to go to education, and given that you will always need a large number
of teachers, then you will face the problem of having teachers who
are not as competent as one would like.

    Now, it's hard, in general, to get teachers who are great at motivation
like Jaime Escalante, just like it may be difficult to get high quality
lawyers or doctors who can perform some kinds of legal cases or surgery.
How does one teach how to teach?   The method that some subscribe to is
that if they're bad, get rid of them.   The teachers, that is.  If we
do that, then we're going to run out of teachers very quickly.   What
is needed is someone or some group that can efficiently teach teachers
and evaluate teachers on their ability to teach, and this is always
fraught with politics.   Who is to decide who is a good teacher and who
is not?  And so forth.

   I have previously stated that education should be in the hands of
parents, and I still believe that.   Learning should not be restricted
to the confines of a school.   On the other hand, I also see a need to
improve teaching as well.    I don't believe that there are neat, tidy
solutions, nor do I believe that there are thousands of Jaime Escalantes
around who can inspire students to study.    The problem can't be
attacked by looking at one aspect or another, but needs to addressed
on many fronts.

--
Charles Lin
clin@eng.umd.edu
Newsgroups: misc.education,alt.discrimination,soc.culture.african.american,soc.women
From: n8843528@henson.cc.wwu.edu (Chris M. Jacques)
Subject: Re: Racist/Sexist Role Models
Organization: Western Washington University
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 22:54:21 GMT

guillory@crhc.uiuc.edu (Stanford Guillory) writes:

>stefan@leland.Stanford.EDU (Stefan Michalowski) writes:

>>or, for that matter, "my great-great-great-great grandmother ran the
>>most wretched whorehouse in ancient Thebes, so add 10 points to my
>>exam score"...

>I hate to take offence at the last sentence of a long post, but I strongly
>object to the inference that blacks get preferential treatment in the classroom
>and in grading. I have NEVER, in my years as a student at three institutions, 
>including one in the UC system, observed such incidents. 

>Oh, BTW, I would just like you to know that as a black man, I am not the one
>who reminds myself that I am black everyday. It is the white society that
>I live in. I would hardly notice I am black if a white person didn't remind
>me of it everyday. Think about that.

>>Stefan

>Stanford S. Guillory

>Think about this Mr. Guillory. What about the fact that whites are
constantly having 'race' thrown in their face day after day...I think most
people are tired of being constantly blamed for slavery,Jim Crow, or of some
scheme to rid the countrie of nonwhites.It's absolutely stupid and ignorant.
Open your eyes, racism and bigotry is inflicted by all sides. Of course it's
wrong. But let's cut it with that shit. Not all whites are the same, not all
blacks are the same etc. We're all individuals and that's what it comes down
to.
>guillory@crhc.uiuc.edu
Newsgroups: misc.education
From: lcardina@norfolk.vak12ed.edu (Loretta Cardinale)
Subject: Call for Lesson Plans: Space
Organization: Virginia's Public Education Network (Norfolk)
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 92 13:36:44 GMT

If anyone has effective, useful space-related lesson plans,
please post them.  I already have lesson plans from NASA's
Spacelink and they're great but I'll bet there are more in use
than I know about.  Also if anyone has any successful rocketry
clubs or other space-related activities, I'd like to hear about
it.  Thanks in advance

Loretta
-- 
Newsgroups: misc.education,alt.discrimination,soc.culture.african.american,soc.women
From: sethb@fid.morgan.com (Seth Breidbart)
Subject: Re: Racist/Sexist Role Models
Organization: my opinions only
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 22:51:25 GMT

In article <1ejbqvINNk7@debussy.crhc.uiuc.edu> guillory@crhc.uiuc.edu
(Stanford Guillory) writes:
>clin@eng.umd.edu (Charles Lin) writes:

>>    The question is, therefore, what is the goal of preferential treatment?

>>Is it to create a percentage of engineers that is equivalent to the
>>racial or female percentages in society?   
>
>Although I don't think anyone has as a goal to equate the percentage of black
>engineers to thier percentage of the population. Rather, it is just to increase
>the percentage. If 9% of engineers were black, I don't think anyone would see
>a problem. On the other hand, 4% seems absurdly low.

The "advantage" of "just to increase the percentage" is that you don't
have to stop when "parity" is reached.  How about a goal that says
that no *individual* will be discriminated against on the basis of
race?  Do you support that goal?

Seth		sethb@fid.morgan.com
From: Crawford_Kilian@mindlink.bc.ca (Crawford Kilian)
Newsgroups: misc.education
Subject: Re: Proof that small classes=better education?
Date: 22 Nov 92 04:09:24 GMT
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada

Brian Wood brings up some good points about class size. In general,
post-secondary classes need a "critical mass"--too small and you don't get
enough variety of views, or a sense of intellectual energy. Below 10 or 12,
you'd better be teaching a graduate seminar. But (especially for
lower-division courses), a class over 25 or so will belong to the teacher and
one or two loudmouths.

One odd aspect of class size: when students come into a class, they seem to
do a headcount and assign themselves a proportionate responsibility. "We have
25 people here, so I'm responsible for 4% of the material." So attention
wanes, and it's not so much fun. But if you have a one-on-one session with
just such a student, the retention rate suddenly soars toward 100%.

In some cases, huge lecture audiences can work if the lecturer has a good
sense of theatre. I can still recall Leon Lederman 30 years ago, knocking us
dead in our hundreds in first-year physics at Columbia. It was good showbiz
and good teaching. But too many profs are mighty dull in that context though
they may shine in smaller classes or seminars.

Ideally, the pupil-teacher ratio is 1:1; anything larger is a compromise
between pedagogy and funding levels.

--
Crawford Kilian   Communications Department   Capilano College
North Vancouver BC Canada V7J 3H5
Usenet: Crawford_Kilian@mindlink.bc.ca
Internet: ckilian@first.etc.bc.ca
Newsgroups: misc.education
From: solman@athena.mit.edu (Jason W Solinsky)
Subject: Where the extra money goes.
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 10:36:50 GMT

Having watched 60 minutes yesterday, I am most impressed with where all of that
extra money goes. Apparently your typical urban district spends half of its
personel costs on non-teaching personel. Then AFTER this is done, you still have
to add in the cost of thigs like maintenance and books.

In NYC in particular, a large fraction of this money goes to janitors who make
$20,000 more than teachers in this school system with some of the highest paid
teachers in the country. NYC may be an exception with respect to the janitorial
situation, but any district where half of all personell costs go to non-teachers
is doing something VERY wrong.

Jason W. Solinsky
Newsgroups: misc.education,alt.discrimination,soc.culture.african.american,soc.women
From: pgolden@nhgs.vak12ed.edu (Patrick S. Golden)
Subject: Re: Free Middle/High School Broadcasts
Organization: Virginia's Public Education Network (Hampton)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 92 22:24:10 GMT

Brian -

I'm sorry you find this "racist". It is certainly not our
intent to foster that attitude, but, rather, to present all
students with role models for them to emulate.

Our broadcasts feature primarily females and underrepresented
minority students because studies show that these students may
be especially sensitive to the support and example of other
successful students.

Perhaps you should read the 1990 RAND Corp. report, "Lost
Talent:  The Underparticipation of Women, Minorities and
Disabled Persons in Science" by Jeannie Oakes.

I think you will find that in our culture race and sex have
made a difference in the ability of certain groups achieving.
Perhaps you mean our culture is racist.  If so, I would agree.

Our Consortium, in addition to the broadcast refered to in the
original post, sponsors scholarships and fellowships for
students at five Virginia schools. (Similar consortia exist in
every other state, D.C. and Puerto Rico) Last year our awards
included 56% made to students who were female or traditionally
underrepresented minority members.  If we're racist, were
spending our money in the wrong place.

-- 
|-------------------------------|
|++Patrick Golden++             | 
|Virginia Space Grant Consortium|
|pgolden@nhgs.vak12ed.edu       | 
Newsgroups: misc.education
From: john@jlc.mv.com (John Leslie)
Subject: Re: Is Math Hard?
Organization: John Leslie Consulting, Milford NH
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 23:14:17 GMT

In article <00721698581@elgamy.uucp.taronga.com> (Eric Lee Green) replies to:

>From article <1992Nov11.212710.18633@eng.umd.edu>, by (Charles Lin):
>>
>> ... one problem that poorer youths had was the inability to accurately
>> tell time or estimate how much time something would take.
>
> The "levels system" requires that a timer be going off once every fifteen
> minutes. Soon the kids tell YOU when fifteen minutes have passed (if you
> forgot to set the timer).

   Charles talked about two things -- measuring time and estimating the time
required.  Eric correctly notes that kids do just fine at _measuring_ time.

   I think Charles meant to emphasize the second skill -- estimating how
much time a job will require.  The system Eric describes _prevents_ kids
from learning the second skill, because they never complete any job --
they only wait for the timer to go off.

   In my experience, very few students learn to estimate jobs well.  Those
that do learn are neither richer nor poorer -- they're ones that regularly
do tasks (such as homework) which they alone are responsible for completing.
I strongly support making planning and estimating a formal part of projects.
When I do this with high school students, I try not to second-guess their
estimates -- merely guide them through a formal process of putting it on
paper and calculating.  Later I let them review their estimates, to see
where they went wrong.

John Leslie <john@jlc.mv.com>
From: elg@elgamy.uucp.taronga.com (Eric Lee Green)
Date: 17 Nov 92 17:56:57 CDT
Newsgroups: misc.education,misc.kids,k12.chat.teacher
Subject: Re: Parental Involvement in Reading
Distribution: world
Organization: Eric's Amiga 2000 @ Home

From article <BxrrKt.5JJ@mentor.cc.purdue.edu>, by hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin):
> In article <1992Nov14.045018.15739@r-node.gts.org> ndallen@r-node.gts.org (Nigel Allen) writes:
>>Here is a press release from the American Federation of Teachers.
>
>>   The American Federation of Teachers will release "The AFT/Chrysler
>>Report on Kids, Parents and Reading" in the Zenger Room of the
>>Ntional Press Club, 14th and F streets N.W., on Monday, Nov. 16, at
>>10 a.m.
>>   The study, sponsored by the AFT, was conducted by Peter D. Hart
>>Research and funded through a grant from the Chrysler Corp.
>
> Prediction:  The report will say that having parents teach their children
> to read before entering school is bad.  Also, teaching structure, grammar,
> etc., is bad.

You are confusing the AFT with the NEA (National Education Association).
The AFT is, in general, much more parent-friendly than the NEA.

Actually, even the NEA recommends active parental involvement in reading
instruction... they recommend that parents of young children read to them
at least twenty minutes per night, and that parents get plenty of books for
older children and require them to read for at least thirty minutes per
night. However, the NEA does recommend against parents trying structured
methods of teaching their children how to read, such as phonics tapes and
such.

In my classroom, I have to sort of agree with the NEA. My kids can read.
They have adequate phonics skills. They got those from school, because
they sure didn't get it from their parents. Their sole problem now is lack
of practice in using these skills, because they never read anything at home
and I have only limited time at school. I'd love to have my parents agree
to supervise my children reading for thirty minutes or even twenty minutes
per night. I have only one parent who'll even think about it. The general
attitude seems to be "It's the school's job to raise my children, I gotta
work for a living." In the meantime, well... so it goes.

On the other hand, I definitely disagree with the position that parents
should not teach their child to read. I wouldn't recommend that a parent
PUSH their child to read -- if the child is happy just listening to the
parent read stories to him or her, fine and dandy, kindegarten and 1st
grade will come along soon enough. On the other hand, if a kid wants to
learn how to read, why not?

Such reasonableness is the general AFT position on the issue, if I remember
correctly. Unfortunately, most people's perceptions of educators are rooted
in the "progressivism" of the late 1940's, where educators actually DID say
that parents shouldn't teach their kids how to read. Hopefully most of
those teachers are dead or retired now.

--
 Eric Lee Green  elg@elgamy.taronga.com   Dodson Elementary
 (713) 664-6446                             Houston, TX
                "Kids are kids, no matter what"
From: schira@ab.wvnet.edu (John Schira, PA-C)
Newsgroups: misc.education
Subject: Research Project  --->> HELP! <<---
Date: 15 Nov 92 06:54:43 GMT
Article-I.D.: ab.1992Nov15.115443.701
Organization: Alderson-Broaddus College

I am a physician assistant doing graduate work in Emergency Medicine. My
research thesis is on computer literacy and use among Emergency Department
physicians and physician assistants.

After a literature search I am unable to find any citations that detail 
actual computer literacy rates among this group, or among docs in general.

Are there any Medical-Netters out there who have any relevant information
or sources I could investigate?

Your input is MUCH appreciated. Thanks.

John Schira
schira@ab.wvnet.edu
Newsgroups: misc.education,alt.discrimination,soc.culture.african.american,soc.women
From: Terry.Parks@launchpad.unc.edu (Terry Parks)
Subject: Re: Racist/Sexist Role Models
Organization: UNC Office of Information Technology
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 23:40:42 GMT

>>Although I don't think anyone has as a goal to equate the percentage of black
>>engineers to thier percentage of the population. Rather, it is just to increase
>>the percentage. If 9% of engineers were black, I don't think anyone would see
>>a problem. On the other hand, 4% seems absurdly low.
>
>The "advantage" of "just to increase the percentage" is that you don't
>have to stop when "parity" is reached.  How about a goal that says
>that no *individual* will be discriminated against on the basis of
>race?  Do you support that goal?

Let's look at a real world example. AT&T states that 18% of its
employees are black. With only 12% of the population black, this could
be seen as a 50% overrepresentation. Now, does AT&T employ racial
prejudice to reduce the number of black employees? No, the fact is, AT&T
actively engages in numerous activities which racially discriminate
against Caucasians. Preferred hiring is given to Blaks by AT&T,
they receive preferrence in job retention and in job promotion.

--
   The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the University of
     North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the Campus Office for Information
        Technology, or the Experimental Bulletin Board Service.
           internet:  laUNChpad.unc.edu or 152.2.22.80
Newsgroups: misc.education
From: Crawford_Kilian@mindlink.bc.ca (Crawford Kilian)
Subject: Re: School Year Round
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 21:46:50 GMT

The concept of year-round schooling certainly looks attractive, and simply
raising the issue makes us all look awfully hidebound and set in our ways:
without a long summer holiday, when do we have time to go Yellowstone with
the kids? Persuasive, maybe, but not a serious pedagogical objection.

We have roughly comparable experience in post-secondary with schools on the
trimester system. At Simon Fraser University here in the greater Vancouver
region, it's quite possible to blast through a 4-year program in 3 years--or,
as I did 20 years ago, acquire a master's at the rate of 1 course (or thesis)
per trimester.

Perhaps we should also consider the idea of extended hours. Here in Canada we
lose a lot of high-school kids who can't afford not to work--so their studies
suffer and they often drop out. If a student could take courses morning,
afternoon or evening, and build them around whatever job he or she was also
doing, we'd have a lot of pooped students...but maybe they'd stay in school
longer.

--
Crawford Kilian   Communications Department   Capilano College
North Vancouver BC Canada V7J 3H5
Usenet: Crawford_Kilian@mindlink.bc.ca
Internet: ckilian@first.etc.bc.ca

Newsgroups: misc.education,alt.discrimination,soc.culture.african.american,soc.women
Organization: Central Michigan University
Date: Monday, 16 Nov 1992 19:14:06 EST
From: Judith C. Kiel <32KUKBC@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU>
Newsgroups: misc.education
Subject: Alternative Ed Schools

Are there any Secondary Alternative Education Schools (teachers/students)
that are on-line?  I am Judy Kiel, Oasis High School, Mt. Pleasant, Michigan.
I am presently taking a college telecomputing class at Central Michigan Univ.
We are in the process of setting up a modem at Oasis H.S. and I would love to
have my students begin telecommuting with other alternative students.  Let me
know if this is something that others would also be interested in or if there
is a forum for that already.  Thanks.
Newsgroups: misc.education
From: Crawford_Kilian@mindlink.bc.ca (Crawford Kilian)
Subject: Re: Racist/Sexist Role Models
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1992 21:16:45 GMT

Stanford Guillory raises serious issues in his comments on racism and sexism.
He observes:

Using your logic, there is no possible solution to the problems minorities
face
in this country. If someone says that they want to increase the number of
black
engineers, then they are going to do something for blacks that they are not
doing
for whites. Bias is commonly used to solve  some of the country's problems.
Seniority
systems to help older workers, veteran preference to help former members of
the
armed forces get adjusted, and on and on. I think that sometimes, bias is an
acceptable
approach to solving a problem.

In a sense, Stanford's right: Minorities have no solution except to make
their minority status an asset--to become professional victims. However,
*individuals* who happen to match the definition of this or that minority or
victimized group may do well or ill as events and their abilities determine.
The idea of having lots of black engineers is as absurd as having lots of
freckled pasta chefs, or lots of Bolivian bagel bakers. A man or woman who
happens to be black and also wants to be an engineer should be able to study
on an equal basis with everyone else, and to pass or fail on the basis of
demonstrated ability.

What about preferential treatment shown senior workers and veterans? In both
cases, preference arises from achievement, not from condition. If a guy is
going to spend years doing the graveyard shift, then at the end of his career
he can work day shift because he's earned it. If a woman's served in the
armed forces, one of the thanks we can offer her is a scholarship to a good
school or a good deal on a mortgage. She's earned it.

At the risk of sounding like a Johnny one-note on this issue, I commend the
recent book by Shelby Steele, The Content of Our Character, which describes
is fairly horrifying detail what 30 years of preferential treatment has done
to blacks (especially black students)--even though the intent was of course
to make things more equal.


--
Crawford Kilian   Communications Department   Capilano College
North Vancouver BC Canada V7J 3H5
Usenet: Crawford_Kilian@mindlink.bc.ca
Internet: ckilian@first.etc.bc.ca

Newsgroups: misc.education,sci.astro,sci.bio,sci.chem,sci.math,sci.physics
From: rajat@sun.soe.clarkson.edu (Rajat Kapoor)
Subject: Of Lawyers, Doctors and Profs... 
Organization: Clarkson University
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 20:22:38 GMT

From article <lgl5mfINNakj@appserv.Eng.Sun.COM>, by fiddler@concertina.Eng.Sun.COM (steve hix):
>>
>>>On the contrary, I think that the legal and medical professions contain
>>>about the same proportion of mediocrities and incompetents as the teaching
>>>profession does. 
>>
 
Interestingly, all the three have an easy way out if they lose :

Lawyers:  " It was a weak case" 

Doctors:  " The patient would have died anyway " 

Profs  :  " The student was hopeless" 

Kapoor
Xref: sparky misc.education:4424 alt.discrimination:4691 soc.culture.african.american:11366 soc.women:20029
From: guillory@crhc.uiuc.edu (Stanford Guillory)
Newsgroups: misc.education,alt.discrimination,soc.culture.african.american,soc.women
Subject: Re: Racist/Sexist Role Models
Date: 20 Nov 1992 12:46:55 -0600
Organization: Center for Reliable and High-Performance Computing, University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
NNTP-Posting-Host: debussy.crhc.uiuc.edu

clin@eng.umd.edu (Charles Lin) writes:

>    The question is whether such "bias" is ultimately effective.  For example,

Oh, I am in total agreement. My point is merely that to condemn all bias as evil
and akin to Naziism is naive.

>    The question is, therefore, what is the goal of preferential treatment?

And an excellent question it is. I think it has been answered in one way or
another many times. The common response is something like your first 
answer:

>Is it to create a percentage of engineers that is equivalent to the
>racial or female percentages in society?   

Although I don't think anyone has as a goal to equate the percentage of black
engineers to thier percentage of the population. Rather, it is just to increase
the percentage. If 9% of engineers were black, I don't think anyone would see
a problem. On the other hand, 4% seems absurdly low.


>Even if the numbers increased
>by this method, how effective is this in getting more students to go
>into engineering.   How effective are "role" models?  

This seems like the root of several excellent dissertations in sociology. I
would like to know the answer myself. Frankly, after watching the Prime
Time special on violence in the schools last night, I am a little disillusioned.

>For example, if we hire all the black and all the women
>engineers graduating today, and there are still problems attracting
>minorities and women,  how we will explain the problem?   

You know as well as I do that that question can't be answered at this time.

>    One ought to investigate all the possibilities of why something
>is happening, rather than just taking the explanation that everyone
>gives as the root of the problem.

Certainly.

>--
>Charles Lin

Stanford S. Guillory
guillory@crhc.uiuc.edu

Newsgroups: misc.education