From: makowsky@enuxha.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky)
Subject: Re: Eggert vs. Livni
Reply-To: makowsky@enuxha.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky)
Organization: Arizona State University, Tempe AZ
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 22:49:26 GMT

In article <1992Sep1.183356.1384@dscomsf.desy.de> Hallam@zeus02.desy.de writes:

# In article <1992Aug31.223515.9796@ennews.eas.asu.edu>,
# makowsky@enuxha.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky) writes:
 
# |>In article <1992Aug31.184758.21468@dscomsf.desy.de> Hallam@zeus02.desy.de
# |>writes:

# |># In article <1992Aug28.212720.9962@bony1.bony.com>, jake@bony1.bony.com
# |>(Jake

# |># Livni) writes:
 
# |># |>In article <EGGERTJ.92Aug26135433@moses.atc.ll.mit.edu>
# |>eggertj@atc.ll.mit.edu
# |># |>writes:
 
# |># |>>The Israelis then deduce that the Palestinians
# |># |>>don't own the land, and that it belongs to Israel.

# |># |>In many of the most publicized cases of Arabs being evicted from houses
# |># |>that they lay claim to "for generations", Israeli courts have found
# |># |>documentation of prior Jewish ownership for these properties.  These 
# |># |>properties had been taken by Jordan without compensation or agreement. 
 
# |># Substantiate this claim with some examples Jake, people might beleive it
# |>then.
# |># Just because you want something to be true does not make it true.

# |>	Jake's claim is not reasonably debatable.  The ony thing in dispute 
# |>is the numbers.
 
# Jakes claim is made on the basis of no evidence whatsoever. Of course their are
# Arabs who are crooks, just as there are Jews who are crooks. Jake however made
# the claim that "In many cases", thus his claim is about numbers, since his
# research in this area is as his research in every area zerothe claim is not
# really worthy of consideration.

	You really take the cake.  I was obviously referring to the fact
that it happened, not just the numbers.  "many" cannot be used to
substiantiate any claim on numbers, since "many" cannot be ined down
to a specific, or even a narrow range, of numbers.  The point still
stands.  Jake is correct about whether or not it happens.  The only
thing that can be disputed is how often.  Your ad hominem attacks do
not change this (but they shed a bad light on you).

# |># Only in cases where they have been convicted of drug dealing. This is a
# |># different matter, if someone is found guilty of a criminal offence then it
# |>is
# |># justifiable to assume that much of his wealth comes from crime, if he were
# |>rich
# |># before why would he have stooped to crime in the first place.

# |>	You obviously do not know what you are talking about.  If law
# |>enforcement officials have "probable cause" (a term which has no fixed
# |>definition) that property is used in drug actions, they can confiscate
# |>the property without any due process (it can be done unilaterally
# |>without a hearing).  For the individual to get the property back, the
# |>individual must initiate legal action, pay all court costs and
# |>attorney fees, post a bond in the amount of 10% of the value of the
# |>property, and then prove to a judge or jury beyond a reasonable shadow
# |>of a doubt that the property was not used in any drug activities.  THE
# |>INDIVIDUAL MUST PROVE HIS INNOCENCE, THE STATE DOES NOT HAVE TO PROVE
# |>GUILT!!!!!!! 
 
# Thats because you are living in a backwards hick country where the rights of
# property are not respected. What you are describing there is abuse of the law.

	I live in the United States, where this is in fact the law.
Remember, we revolted against you guys because you abused the law with
us.

# In the UK we set rather a higher score on democratic rights.

	Oh really.  I could show you an article written by David Broder
(One of the most respected columnists, by people of all political
views) about how the British condemnation of Israeli handling of the
intifada in light of British behavior in Northern Ireland.

# |> In at least one case, an individual convinced a jury he
# |>was innocent, and then a judge overturned the jury verdict!  And this
# |>all can take place even if charges are never brought against the
# |>individual!!!!
 
# This sounds clearly unconstitutional, not that constitutional rights ever meant
# much.
 
	The United States Supreme Court has said that this is very
constitutional.

# |># What Jake seeks to justify is confiscation of property without
# |>compensation.

# |>	Nope.  He seeks a return of property.  The Arabs should feel lucky
# |>they are not being asked o pay for their illegal occupation of the
# |>property.
 
# Jake is asking for no such thing. We are discussing the cases where no claim is
# being made by any individual. 

	That is what Jake is asking for, whether or no a claim has been
made.  Remember, the rightful Jewish owners may have died with no
decendents.

# |>	I agree that those currently in the house, who boght the property
# |>in good faith and their decendents (but those who did not should be
# |>booted out) must be treated fairly and humanely.  Their claims,
# |>however, re against their Arab bretheren and governments, although I
# |>believe Israel should be magnanimous and help{_.
 
# The Arab governments have absolutely nothing to do with the theft of property by
# the Israeli state.

	I agree.  The Arab governments have absolutely nothing to do with
the  empty set you have just described.

# Given that the policy we are discussing is that of Ariel
# Sharon you will look hard to find support for it even in Israel.

	Sharon has much support (even if it is not a majority) in Israel.
However, what policy are you talking about.

# Given that the
# man was practicaly single handedly responsible for the Lebanon catastrophe he is
# not exactly popular in Israel. 


	I agree with your statement, but he his still very popular among
some.

# |># |>Why should Arab thieves be treated differently from American thieves?

# |># Only a racist bigot like Jake would assume that if an Arab is living in a
# |>house
# |># he must have stolen it.

# |>	Only an idiot would deduce that from what Jake wrote.
 
# Jake and Makowsky both assume that all Arabs must be considered guilty of having
# stolen Jewish property until proven innocent. This is a racist attitude.

	It is a racist attitude.  But only an idiot would deduce it from
what we have said.

# |># |>There is no such hypocritical demand.  The mezuzas on the doorposts
# |># |>simply indicate that the Arab claim to have been living in the house
# |># |>for generations is false. 
 
# |># Jews have lived in the holy land for generations too you know.

# |>	Agreed.
 
# So the presence of Mezuza holes tells us nothing about whether a house was
# illegaly misappropriated from Jews, merely that Jews once lived there. 

	From a definite point of view, yes.  But once the facts of how
they came to leave those homes becomes clear, it is obvious that it
was misappropriated.  And it does tell us that the Arab claim of a
centuries old continuous presence is a lie (at least in those homes).

# If you want peace with you neighbours it is best to stop producing
# rationalisation for stealing his property.

	There is no rationalization going on here.  And as I have stated
before, peace is impossible without Divine intervention.  Both sides
share blame for that, but it is a fact that must be dealt with.

# Thankfully with the defeat of Likud
# it is to be expected that these practices have either been stopped or are being
# stopped.

	The defeat of Likud has no effect.  Eventually, to protect Arabs
and Jews from Killing each other, Kach ideas will have to be enacted.
A Labor defeat would not have changed that.

# I am still waiting for Jake to list the dates of his military service in Israel.

	I have seen you make this request before.  Why do you care?

# Perhaps Makowsky could also oblige.

	Why?

# One of the most disgusting aspects of the
# whole situation is the fact that those who are most vociferous in their demands
# to continue the occupation of the territories and confiscation of Arab property
# are also the very same people who wheedle out of military service on "religious"
# grounds. 


	You have no idea about what your are talking.  I suggest you find
out what a Hesder Yeshiva is.  At any rate, I live in the US where
there is no draft.
--

David Makowsky
makowsky@enuxha.eas.asu.edu