HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: wolffram@andor2.wiwi.uni-karlsruhe.de (Jochen WOLFFRAM)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: Samadhi, Enlightenment,...
Date: 14 Apr 92 03:13:38 GMT
Organization: University of Karlsruhe, Germany

>
>In article <1992Apr8.223151.20156@iitmax.iit.edu>,
>     wolffram@andor2.wiwi.uni-karlsruhe.de (Jochen WOLFFRAM) writes...
>> 
>>>Many posts talk about such things as enlightenment or samadhi or other higher
>>>states of consiousness. I am wondering how many people have indeed had
>>>experiences of these kinds ? 
>
>>Don't care about things like that. Thinking in this way immediately
>>leads you to practicing with a wrong mind. If you want to gain
>>something like samadhi or enlightenment when sitting on your cushion, then
>>you just exchange your ordinary daily life wishes with some spiritual
>>wishes.
>> 
>
>This is such a typical ( book type ) answer to any question about 
>enlightenment. 
>No, actually, I am not actively in persuit of attaining enlightenment,
>nor am I really interested in that. I climb mountains because I enjoy the
>climbing.
Well, this may sound like a book type answer, but that does not make
it wrong automatically. And in my opinion, it is the only answer
one should give to a question like yours. It is impossible to describe
emotions, feelings, or mind states with words. That's why the basis of Zen
is "In shin den shin" - from my mind to your mind. To teach without
using words. (Surely, most Zen teachers do use words, but these
are only pointers to the truth. They never get tired repeating this.)
 
>What is frustrating however is that many people seem to hide their not
>knowing, or misunderstanding, behind a standard reply like this.
Quite right. Using killer phrases or book type answers is very 
easy. (But don't forget that you can't *see* the person writing
these words via e-mail. Perhaps the person has the real experience 
that the book type answer is appropriate.) So if you think the
answer to a zen-related question is just a citing from some old 
master, just think "Well, some Zen-master answered to my question
in this way. What the hell did he mean?".
  For training: Once Joshu was asked: "What is the essence of Zen?" 
  Joshu answered: "Not even pissing someone else could do in place of me."

>Actually, I just recently went to a talk by Zen-master Seung Sahn at Harvard.
>He was quite wonderfull, very funny, and not very intellectual ( kept answering
>questions that were long with: "Keep questions short ! I don't understand these
>long questions ! You are too attached to words." ) So my question answered
>itself. 
I would be glad to here what Seung Sahn said about enlightenment.

Regards,
(wolffram@andor.wiwi.uni-karlsruhe.de)
From: PVJQC%CUNYVM.BITNET@mitvma.mit.edu
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Yoga-philosophy teacher's services available
Date: 7 Apr 92 08:10:38 GMT
Organization: City University of New York/ University Computer Center

HELLO NETTERS,

I AM POSTING THIS NOTE FOR DR. NARASIMHA RAO WHO IS A GREAT AUTHORITY
IN THE FIELD OF INDIAN PHILOSOPHY (YOGA, VEDANTA).  HE WISHES TO OFFER HIS
SERVICES TO THE INTERESTED COMMUNITY ON TEMPORARY/PERMANENT BASIS.
PRESENTLY HE IS THE YOGA INSTRUCTOR IN ARSHA-VIDYA GURUKULAM, SALYLORSBURG,
PENSYLVANIA.  HE TAUGHT ONE SEMESTER OF 'YOGA-THEORY & PRACTICE' AT  QUEENS
COLLEGE OF CUNY.  FOLLOWING ARE HIS CREDENTIALS FOR YOUR REFERENCE.

M. NARASIMHA RAO, PH.D.
DR. RAO OBTAINED A PH.D. IN PHILOSOPHY(YOGA AND VEDANTA) FROM SHIVAJI UNIV.
INDIA.  HE OBTAINED A DIPLOMA IN YOGA EDUCATION (PRACTICE AND THEORY)
RECOGNIZED BY THE GOVT. OF INDIA FROM RENOWNED KAIVALYADHAM YOGA INST NEAR
BOMBAY, INDIA.  HE TAUGHT YOGA THERE AND AT OTHER LOCATIONS THROUGHOUT INDIA
FOR NEARLY 15 YEARS BEFORE COMING TO THE U.S. IN 1988.

HE COMPLETED A SIX YEAR COURSE IN VEDANTA FROM SANDEEPANI SADHANALAYA,
POWAI, BOMBAY.
HE IS PRESENTLY AFFILIATED WITH ARSHA VIDYA GURUKULAM, INSTITUTE FOR THE
STUDY OF VEDANTA AND SANSKRIT, SAYLORSBURG, PA, AND IS TEACHING YOGA THERE
AND AT OTHER LOCATIONS IN THE U.S.  ARSHA VIDYA GURUKULAM IS HEADED BY SWAMI
DAYANANDA SARASWATI.
HE HAS PUBLISHED BOOKS AND TAPES (VIDEO/AUDIO) ON YOGA.
**********

HE CAN BE CONTACTED AT AVP, P.O. BOX 1059, SAYLORSBURG, PA 18353.
TEL. (717) 992-2339.
YOU CAN SEND ME E-MAIL AND I CAN PASS ON THE MESSAGE.
THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR YOUR CO-OPERATION.
-------

         *********************************************************
         *  PRASHANT V. JOSHI                                    *
         *  COMPUTER SCIENCE DEPARTMENT                          *
         *  CITY UNIVERSITY OF NEW YORK.                         *
         *  INTERNET ADDRESS: PVJQC@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU,             *
         *  BITNET ADDRESS  : PRASHANT@QCVAX.BITNET              *
         *                                                       *
         *********************************************************
From: raj@globe1.att.com (Rajendra P Sharma)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: Reincarnation...
Date: 7 Apr 92 08:03:14 GMT
Organization: AT&T

Tagi writes:

> Reincarnation is a very complex thing.  It resides both in Eastern Religions
> and Western Occult systems.  Christian Mysticism is said to have contained
> the idea of reincarnation prior to the Council which artificially designed
> Christianity for the vulgar political moguls.

> Yours in carnation,

Wow! Two beauts in one day. THANKS.

Yours lazy-in-carnation,

---raj
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
From: plains!sivaram@uunet.UU.NET (Sivaram Hariharan )
Subject: The concept of Jivatma and Paramaatma in Hinduism and its relation
Organization: North Dakota State University, Fargo
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 92 21:37:55 GMT

The crux of Hinduism is the liberation of the individual soul,
the Jivaatma, which then merges with the supreme self, the
paramaatma or the Almighty.

There have been different school of thoughts on this. Two principle
schools are Adi-Shankara's MONISM and Madhvaachaarya's DUALISM.

According to Shankara's monistic theory, there is nothing but
the supreme self that pervades this universe. The Jivaatma or
the individual soul is a mere projection or reflection of the
supreme self. Liberation of the Jivaatma is defined as the state
when the individual soul realizes its oneness with the supreme
self and discards everything else as MAYA or mere illusions.

According to Madhva, the Jivaatma and the paramaatma are seperate
entities and liberation is defined as the Jivaatma inhibiting the
abode of the supreme self called Brakma-loka(the world of brahman
or the supreme self).

But with the progress of modern science, especially in the field
of bio-chemistry and genetics, one asks: Has this concept of Jivaatma
and paramaatma has reconciled with modern science.

Latest discovery on the bio-chemistry of the human brain is homing
in the notion that our human bodies are nothing but bio-chemical
entities(See latest papers published in CELL). As a result of this,
the concept of a soul inhibiting the human body is becoming moot.
These discoveries are also shaking the foundations of Western
Phsycology. Assuming that we are mere bio-chemical entities, products
of evolution from lower life forms over the aeons, we
can DISPENSE of with the concept of soul(See ILya Pregogene's ORDER
OUT OF CHAOS). 

But the million dollar question is whether modern science can
ever dispense of with the concept of the Supreme self or the
Paramaatma. 

The answer is NO and maybe never. If the initial nucleus, from
which the universe may have evolved can be designated as the
creator, or as the Hindu scriptures say, the MOOLA-KAARANA KARTA,
which in other words is the ROOT-CAUSE of this material universe,
then things fall into place. One may effectively postulate that
the Supreme self, gave the universe with properties to evolve(the
properties of protons, electrons, elements compounds etc.etc.)
and then left the universe to take its own course and th evolve.
We are the products of this evolution. Thus the concept
of evolution(Darwin's theory) DOES NOT CONTRADICT THE CONCEPT
OF THE PARAMAATMA OR THE SUPREME SELF. 

This also falls in line with Adi-shankara's MONISM where everything
is attributed to the WILL of the creator.

Comments are welcome.

Sivaram
----------------------------------------------------------------
Life is complex, make it simple
From: rmk@loop.ausom.oz.au (Richard Kay)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re:Questions
Date: 17 Apr 92 18:18:01 GMT
Organization: AUSOM - The Apple Users Society of Melbourne

johnw@farside.eng.ready.com (John Wheeler) writes:

JW> I would like to propose the following questions for discussion.
JW>
JW> 1) If someone asked you, What is enlightenment?, what would you
JW> tell them?

Enlightenment is a word.

JW> 2) If someone asked you how they might practically go about
JW> discovering such a realization for themselves, what advice
JW> would you give them?

Be here now.

JW> 3) If someone asked you to honestly state your own current level of
JW> spiritual understanding or realization, what would be your answer?

I don't know.


This is from my own personal experience.

Greetings from Tasmania, Australia.
-- 
Richard Kay
e-mail: rmk%ausom.oz@sol.cc.deakin.oz.au
Be Realistic....Plan For A Miracle!
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
From: tt@wag.caltech.edu (Toshi Takeuchi)
Subject: Building up ego with answers to questions?
Summary: Don't fool yourself in interpreting your experiences.
Keywords: ego,realization,spirituality
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena, CA
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 92 08:59:48 GMT

>3) If someone asked you to honestly state your own current level of spiritual 
>   understanding or realization, what would be your answer?  

Be careful when answering certain questions like this.  Why?

1. I have experienced such and such a state and or feeling so I am at
   this level or attainment or realization.

First of all, why should anyone care if you attained such and such a state.

Second of all, how do you know that your experience of such and such a state
truly was the state described?

    --Suppose you only think you attained a state of samadhi or whatever, but
      you really didn't.
    
      Well, telling the world or others that yeah I attained this state 
      described by such and such only builds up your ego.  It does no good to
      others by saying this.

      It can hinder your development in thinking this because you are
      just pumping up your ego rather than being of any service.

--Description and analysis of an experience is fine, but saying since this
  sounds like samadhi or whatever, so I have experienced it can be harmful.

--Comparison of experience is fine, to see if you are following the road map,
  but saying that you are at a certain stage may really be fooling yourself.

A final example I'll give is with the opening of the chakras.

A person says, 'I feel my heart so my heart must be open. (I am a great
person).'

Reply:
You may feel your heart, but I'll bet that it's only open in relationship
to your root center or maybe your gonad center.

The true opening of the selfless, egoless heart is far beyond a simple
feeling of the heart.

The evaluation that I'm a spiritual being because I feel my heart is hogwash.
It's only ego that's preening.

In summary, if you have a certain experience, be careful of your interpretation
of it.  You may be fooling yourself.

Toshi
tt@wag.caltech.edu

P.S. We all do this.  At least I do.  I'm sure not perfect...
From: tmciolek@coombs.anu.edu.au
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Zen E-mail Directory Project - 2nd call for input
Date: 7 Apr 92 08:06:16 GMT
Organization: ----

Hi everyone,

In March 1992 I started compiling a world-wide directory  of the Internet
and Bitnet e-mail addresses of individuals who are Zen
students/practitioners or Buddhist scholars and who volunteer to act as an
e-mail CONTACT POINT for their center,  zendo, sangha, monastery or other
Zen Buddhism practice/ training/ teaching/ research organization.

At present I have on file over 10 such e-mail addresses from Australia,
Canada, Japan, Sweden & USA. My first posting in the soc.religion.eastern
newsgroup resulted in several high quality materials, however, I am keen to
collect further data.

The Directory is meant to be shared between the Zen and other Buddhist
centers/institutions all over the world in order to facilitate
communication between such organizations in all countries of Asia, Europe,
N. America, S. America and Oceania. 

With the view of preserving the Contact Persons' privacy, valuable time as
well protecting their
currently unhindered access to the e-mail facilities - anyone using this
Directory is requested to note
that:
a) This document should not be used outside of it's Buddhist organizational
context;
b) The list should  be used judiciously and only for exch anges about
matters of  importance to the 
contact points in their capacity as Zen students/ scholars. 

The project will be completed by 15 June 1992. All contributors to this
project will receive via e-mail the final version of the directory. 

INTERESTED PERSONS ARE INVITED to send their e-mail addresses together with
brief details of their Zen organizational affiliations as well as any
querries, additions and corrections to:

tmciolek@coombs.anu.edu.au  

With gassho - 

Dr T. Matthew Ciolek,
Sydney Zen Center & Canberra Zen Group;
a student under John Tarrant Roshi of Santa Rosa,
California Diamond Sangha,		
Harada-Yasutani [Sanbo Kyodan] lineage.
e-mail (internet) tmciolek@coombs.anu.edu.au

=====================================================
Dr T. Matthew Ciolek, Coombs Computing Unit, RSPacS/RSSS      	   
Australian National University, GPO Box 4, Canberra  A.C.T.  2601.         
Phone  (Intl.)  61 6 249 2214,   Fax     (Intl.)  61 6 257 1893
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
From: raj@globe1.att.com (Rajendra P Sharma)
Subject: Re: All is one.
Organization: AT&T
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 92 06:54:06 GMT

> >	Aha, how marvelous; this meeting [of minds]
> >	when stepping beyond the "illusion of words (Sabdjaal)"
> >	     takes place.
> >	
> >	That is the first step.
> >	Then, beyond all illusions,
> >	All IS ONE - The SELF.
> >	
> >	When all is one, where is this thought or that?
> >	                 Where is Buddha or Ramana?
> >	                 Where is you or me?
> >	                 Who sees whom?
> >			 Who seeks whom? and How?
> >			 Only the SELF.
> >			 Only the SELF.
> >			 ONLY the SELF.
> >			

> This all is one idea is something that keeps coming up. But in the
> Bhagavad-gita, Lord Krishna says:
> 
>            na tv evah jatu nasam
>              na tvam neme janadhipah
>            na caiva na bhavisyamah
>              sarve vayam atah param
> 
> "Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you,
>  nor all these kings; nor in the future shall any of us cease to be."

Beautiful! [Try reading Gita from the point of view of Krishna
            (for a change; usually one takes the point of view of
                           Arjuna)]

> We can also see from the standpoint of common experience
> that the self is individual or particulate.

Common experience can not be trusted for all things.
[The sun appears to revolve around the earth].

> All is not one, as the discussions in this group
> clearly show. If everything were actually one, then as soon as someone
> achieved oneness, then all of us would be in oneness. So because so many
> people claim to have achieved that oneness, or others claim that
> such persons have achieved the oneness, that shows that we really
> are not one. Because if you can achieve oneness and I am here still
> in not-oneness, then the only  conclusion is that we are not one
> and the same. Alternatively, you could suppose that the person who
> claimed oneness did not actually achieve it, in
> which case everything is still not one.

Again better not to judge the "whole" from the point of view of
                             a "part (the intellect)."	

Let the senses, the intellect be at rest, and then experience what
                IS beyond descriptions.

The other Gita (The Bible) says: BE STILL AND know that I AM [is] GOD.

[A few simple examples:
 
		The body is one, but how many different functions
		    are performed by it. Then why not the universe?
		    Even common experience shows that appearances
		         are deceptive.
		
		All these questions of "one" versus "many" etc. -
		 try asking them in deep sleep. After all one is there
		 in deep sleep. Is one not? What happens then?
		 what state is that? how to describe that state?
		 (a very common experience for all). If the state of
		 deep sleep can't be described? How can "the experience
		 of all one?" Who is to describe what to whom and how?

After explaining all [yogas] to Arjuna, Krishna said:

	Abandon ALL DHARMAS.
	SEEK REFUGE in me ALONE.
	GRIEVE NOT.
	and FEAR NOT.
	
In other words: SURRENDER!

The key is to "go for the experience" and then "talk" or "do" or
           "whatever" as much as .....

---raj
From: 75742@novell1.rz.fht-mannheim.de (Marc Wachowitz)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: looking
Date: 14 Apr 92 09:01:34 GMT
Organization: ----

Ceci Henningsson <ceci@lysator.liu.se> wrote:
> I think I would like it.
Hmm, I think it was Yasutani Roshi who said "don't be too shure you really
want enlightenment, it might be quite boring from your point of view" :-)

>From the signature:
> "Vorbedingung des kuenstlerischen Schaffens ist nicht, ein Ereignis
> oder ein Motiv so "rein" anzuschauen, dass es auf das betrachtende
> Subjekt gar keine Wirkung hat." Hermann Leber: Aquarellieren lernen
Translated (hopefully I found appropriate words):
"Prerequesite for artistic creation is not to look at some event or motive
so "pure" that it has no effect on the viewing subject"
                             Hermann Leber: Learning water-colour painting

My comment:
Creativity is in the unmotivated viewing where the subject is forgotten.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marc Wachowitz                               75742@novell1.rz.fht-mannheim.de
   *   wonder everyday   *   nothing in particular   *   all is special   *
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
From: plains!sivaram@uunet.UU.NET (Sivaram Hariharan )
Subject: The story of Maha-Tejasvi-Rishi-Bharadwaaja.
Organization: North Dakota State University, Fargo
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 92 16:31:39 GMT

In an earlier article, I had talked about the significance of the
jnaana-maarga(path of knowledge) and bhakti-maarga(path of devotion)
in Hinduism. There have been proponents of both in the history of
Hinduism. Debates have raged over the relative superiority of each.

Here is a story from the Puraanaas related to this issue.

This story is also recited in TAITREEYA KAATAKA of the Vedas.

The Story of Mahaa-tejasvi Rishi Bharadwaaja.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Kaathakaas in the Vedas goes as

Bharadhwajo Ha Tribhiraayurbhir Brahmacharyam uvaasa.

Which means that he(bharadwaaja) was the epitome of knowledge
after 300 years of learning the vedas.

Actually, when he completed the first 100 yrs of his life Brahma 
appeared before him and told him that it was time for him to

discontinue his worldly existance. However, Bharadhwaaja placated
Brahma to give him another 100 yrs as he had a lot of the vedic
scriptures yet to master. And by this way he extended his life
span for 300 yrs.

At the end of 300 years, Bharadhwaaja felt totally accomplished. 
In fact, he started to feel proud and even stopped offering prayers
to God.

At this point Lord Vishnu(the supreme paramaatman) approached the Rishi
But the Rishi, did not bow to him. The Lord took him to a huge infinite
mountain and said " Hey Jnaani, this is the mountain of knowledge. But
in these 300 years you have mastered knowledge equivalent to only a
handful of mud. It is futile to pursue knowledge for its own sake
and even if one lives for 5000 yrs, will never learn enough.
O Bharadwaaja, surrender to me. Be devoted to me as I am knowledge itself,
I'm logic, I'm thought, I'm the thinker, I'm the wind, the mountain and this mighty collossus of this
universe. On being one with me, U will be truly enlightened."

Bharadwaaja, immediately fell on the Lord's feet and begged for his
pardon and started his course on the Bhakti-Maarga.

The Moral of this story:

The Path of Knowledge is a bonafide path but filled with lots of
cracks and crevices. What is the use of knowledge when it leads
only to only AHANKAARA(pride). many of us in this present world
(including the so-called-rational-intellectual-atheists) suffer
from this foolish pride.

The path of devotion is one straight path and WILL lead to HIM

In my next article, I will post about the significance of the
Puraanaas and their relation to the Vedas and Gita.

sivaram
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Life is complex, make it simple.
From: raj@globe1.att.com (Rajendra P Sharma)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: Questions
Date: 16 Apr 92 15:19:09 GMT
Organization: AT&T


Vanessa  writes:


> - "THE TAO THAT CAN BE SPOKEN OF IS NOT THE TRUE TAO".


	One who says (s)he has seen the face of Tao
	                       sees     not     Tao.
	
	One who follows                         Tao
	
	                   sees not the back of Tao.
	
	
---raj
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
From: tt@wag.caltech.edu (Toshi Takeuchi)
Subject: Re: Questions
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena, CA
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 92 16:52:21 GMT

In article <1992Apr9.213626.19123@iitmax.iit.edu> johnw@farside.eng.ready.com (John Wheeler) writes:
>I would like to propose the following questions for discussion.
>                                                    ^^^^^^^^^
>1) If someone asked you, What is enlightenment?, what would you tell them? 

I would ask why do you want to know?  Note my emphasis on discussion above.

>2) If someone asked you how they might practically go about discovering
>   such a realization for themselves, what advice would you give them?  

This question seems to imply that enlightenment exists and discovery of
such a state is possible.  I'm not denying it, but simply stating the 
bias of the question as I interpret it.

Well, all I would say is find a way of living that works for you.  If you
are looking for a meditative path, then there are many to choose from.
There are many books you can get which describe such paths.

>3) If someone asked you to honestly state your own current level of spiritual 
>   understanding or realization, what would be your answer?  

I would reply, what interest is it to you to know my level of realization?
What interest is it for me to make such assessments?
Must someone be enlightened or highly "spiritual" to be a teacher?

THAT'S BS!  Don't trust em if they say that.

We can ALL be teachers, since we are unique individuals with unique experiences.
Please don't forget that.  Don't be timid!

Toshi
tt@wag.caltech.edu