From: cll5685@rigel.tamu.edu (LARUE, CHARLES L.)
Newsgroups: alt.discrimination
Subject: Re: Discrimination against whites is rampant
Date: 5 Jan 1993 11:38 CST
Organization: Texas A&M University, Academic Computing Services
Distribution: usa
NNTP-Posting-Host: rigel.tamu.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    

In article <93004.142747KRB104@psuvm.psu.edu>, <KRB104@psuvm.psu.edu> writes...
>In article <4JAN199312424225@zeus.tamu.edu>, cll5685@zeus.tamu.edu (LARUE,
>CHARLES L.) says:
>>
>>In article <93004.080247KRB104@psuvm.psu.edu>, <KRB104@psuvm.psu.edu>
>>writes...
>>>  Your analogy is ludicrous.  Sports and entertainment are the two fields
>>that
>>
>>How can you say that it is ludicrous?  There is a disproportionate number of
>>blacks in sports.  Anytime there is a disproportionate number of whites in a
>>given job, racism is the cry.  So what is the difference here?
> 
>    How can I say it is ludicrous?  Easy, did you read the rest of the sentence
>that you cut off above?  I will repeat it.  Blacks have always been allowed to
>excell in sports and entertainment throughout our history (well, in baseball it
>has only been since 1947).  Yes, Blacks are disproportionately represented in
>sports, but Black children and adults also disproportionately aspire to be
>athletes because of the closing of other doors (read Harry Edwards work on the
>Sociology of Sports).  If you look at sports, blacks are allowed to achieve
>only in some postions, (how many blacks did you see on the sideline coaching in
> the playoffs?).  So yes, I say your statement is ludicrous.  Do you hear
>people crying racism because there aren't enough Blacks in tennis or ice
>hockey or golf?  We are allowed to achieve on the football fields and basket-
>ball courts of AMerica, but not in the board room!  Even the Roman slaves were
>allowed to be gladiators for the amusement of the roman emporers.  Sorry,
>sports is the wrong area to make such an assertion, we have always been able
>to do things that amuse the white world!

Your examples are full of holes.  There are not many blacks playing hockey and
tennis because they don't care to play these games.  Show me where blacks are
trying to play hockey on the college level.  On the other hand, I can assure
you that there are plenty of white guys who would love to play in the NFL or
NBA but can't because it is dominated by blacks.  How is this any different
from the black man who aspires to be the CEO of a large company?  By using your
logic, I could say that these jobs are some of the few that blacks have not
infiltrated in large numbers and whites see that they have a good chance at
success so a disproportionate number of whites aspire to be CEO's.  If you
disagree that there should be more whites playing professional sports then I
must disagree that there must be more black CEO's.

As for doing things that amuse the white world.  Ask Michael Jordan if he would
accept a job in the board room for similar money to what he is making now. 
What do you think he would say?  Sure, because I am tired of being treated like
a pitiful black man who must make a living by amusing the white world?  HA!   I
know plenty of white guys who would love to make a living like this.

>>>as to how you know these students test scores and grades.   And also how do  u
>>yo                          
>>>know that they are on academic probation, again this information is
>>>confedential between the school and the student?
>>
>>I will not go into details about how I knew, because as you say the
>>information
>>is confidential.  I will just say that I did see the scores.  I would not make
>>the assumption that someone did worse just because they were black.  And of
> 
>   You mean to tell me that you had access to another student's scores and
>grades?  Someone should be fired over this, it is HIGHLY illegal for this and
>you shouldn't publish this information over a public network.

What is wrong with me publishing this information?  Is it that you don't want
to believe that this kind of stuff goes on?  I never said Joe Blow who made a
940 on his GRE and had a 2.7 GPA got a fellowship when I didn't.  I never
attached a name to anything so there is absolutely nothing wrong with me
publishing what I have.  As to the legality, that is not the point.  The point
is that it is pretty easy to access scores, GPA's, etc.  I will just say that a
careless professor left scores lying around and I, as well as several others
saw the scores, GPA's, GRE's, etc.  I will say that we were not completely
shocked because it is pretty much common knowledge that this kind of stuff goes
on.

>>But when I work my ass off and see someone with more money (once again, I am
>>not making assumptions) get a better fellowship because of their race, I am
>>outraged.  Also, I am curious to your thoughts on the guy who recently
>>immigrated here and was awarded a nice fellowship.  He is a friend of mine,
>>but
>>I think his fellowship is unwarranted.  (He is now on academic probation).


(Items deleted not pertaining to my argument)

>   As far as the immigrant receiving a fellowship and you didn't, well, I am
>one who is for diversity in education.  Did the student come from a school
>whose native language is English?  If not, then you have to throw out his/her
>test scores, because how do you expect someone to do as well as you when they
>do not speak the language as well (remember these grad exams have a verbal
>section)?  You have to give more details, and again do you know this person's
>full history?  As I recall, fellowships are  given to students for their
>achievements, not for their income level, so the fact that he is richer than
>you should not make a difference!    

I mention the income level for this reason.  I thought minority fellowships
were given because many minorities may not have had the same chance to succeed
as a white person because of the income level.  So here is a guy who has lived
in this country for six years.  His income level is higher than mine.  Here I
have lived here all my life.  I come from a poor family.  He gets a four year
minority fellowship and I get a one year fellowship.  Where is the justice in
this?

>there were people who were on academic probation who graduated from high school
>with 4.0's and 1400 SAT scores!  Fellowships and assistantships and scholar-
>ships are often given for achievement on the previous level, not on the level
>you are currently at.  You need to have more facts then what you are telling
>me.
You want the facts, so don't complain because you've got them.  Here they are. 
Student A scores in the 1st percentile on placement exams and has a 2.7 GPA. 
Student B scores in the 3rd percentile and has a 2.9.  Student C scores in the
14th percentile and has a 3.2.  Student D scores in the 27th percentile and has
a 3.6.  Student E scores in the 95th percentile and has a 3.95.  The difference
between these students?  Students A-D are black and got very nice four year
minority fellowships.  Student E is me and I got a pretty good one year
fellowship. Oh, and I am white.  Is this fair?  Do I have the same chance to
afford an education as a reasonably intelligent black person?  No, I do not. 
These are not isolated incidents.  I saw the same thing when I came out of high
school.  Black students with similar grades got better scholarships.  I don't
ask for a better chance to succeed.  I ask for the same chance as everyone
else.  If you think the odds aren't tilted in your favor at my expense wake up
and smell the coffee.

Also, you said you had pretty good grades.  I bet you had a pretty nice
scholarship for college.  Contradict me if I am wrong.  I had pretty good
grades also, but still had to work in excess of 40 hours a week to put myself
through school.