HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: dfried@darwin.genetics.washington.edu (David Friedman)
Subject: Re: Time-loop flaw in Time's Arrow II
Organization: University of Washington   
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1992 19:49:45 GMT

In article <1992Oct2.164427.20584@nmsu.edu> ssubrama@dante.nmsu.edu (SUBRAMANIAM) writes:
>Hi netters,
>	Has anyone noticed a flaw in Time's Arrow II.  When Samuel Clemens
>comes to the enterprise, he sees his watch and someone (I think Geordi) tells
>him that they found it in the cavern along with data's head.  That means
>that the watch is 500+ years old.  Clemens takes the watch goes back to the
>19th century and leaves it in the cave.  That means the watch would be 1000+
>years old in the next loop. That cannot happen.  If everything happened as I
>have mentioned here in TA II, then the flaw is present.  Can someone confirm
>my observation or am I wrong in perceiving the events.
>
>Siva
>email: ssubrama@dante.nmsu.edu
>

The watch is aging normally, and eventually will stop
working.  Every 500 years it is picked up by the Enterprise
and then brought back to the 19th century cavern to cycle
again.

The real problem is that there are two independent watches,
the one mentioned above that keeps cycling and another one
that Clemens looses prior to his finding it again on the
Enterprise.  If he looses his watch at the moment of Data's
demise (he's looking at it just prior), then there must be
TWO watches present in the cavern to be found 500 years
later by the Enterprise:  the one that was lost there and
the one that he places there at the end of the episode.  On
the other hand, if the watch was lost "prior to the
episode", then it exists in a completely independent
timeline from the one that is cycling.  Either way, you've
got a problem.
From: odlin@reed.edu (Iain Odlin)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.startrek.current
Subject: Re: Transporting in Realm of Fear *SPOILERS*
Date: 3 Oct 92 04:56:33 GMT
Article-I.D.: reed.1992Oct3.045633.1951
Organization: The Stuffed Animal Trauma Team  (We're Trained Professionals)

In article <92Oct02.203956.31090@acs.ucalgary.ca> jsbell@acs.ucalgary.ca (Joshua Bell) writes:
>The TOS transport likely did freeze the person during transport -
>we never seem, them move until they're completely materialized.

  Until STII:TWOK, that is, wherein they not only move, but have a conversation
  while in transport...

-- 
 --------------------------------- Iain Odlin ---------------------------------
                  10 Crosby Street, Level 3, Portland ME 04103
                                 odlin@reed.edu
 If God'd meant us to use the metric system, there'd've been only ten apostles.
From: ahummel@ems.cdc.com (H. Austin Hummel)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.startrek.current
Subject: Re: Guinan on earth and enterprise?
Date: 25 Sep 92 14:06:39 GMT
Reply-To: you@ems.cdc.com
Organization: Empros Systems International, a division of CDC

In article <1992Sep24.195926.11851@dartvax.dartmouth.edu>, crow@coos.dartmouth.edu (Preston F. Crow) writes:
|> In <92268.105439KAS155@psuvm.psu.edu> KAS155@psuvm.psu.edu writes:
|> 
|> 
|> >    I have a question about TA II and Guinan.  I know she can be in the 19th
|> >and 24th centuries.  But does anyone out there know how she got from 19th
|> >century earth to 24th century earth?  Is she an  alien that lives forever?
|> >Kind of like Vulcans.  Or does she travel in time sometime in the future
|> >(or would that be the past?)  Please help.
|> >                            -keith   (KAS155@psuvm.psu.edu)
|> 
|> >   "The security of the enterprise is of *Paramount* importance!"
|> >                                - Capt. Jean-Luc Picard
|> 
|> She is not human.  Her species is know to be long-lived.  Apparently very
|> long-lived, though it is also possible that she was put into suspended
|> animation or somehow skipped forward in time, though I doubt that this is
|> the case.  Did people notice that the Guinan in the 19th century had a
|> noticibly different personallity--much more youthful and adventurous as
|> opposed to quiet and mysterious.
|> 
|> Actually, the idea of a species living for 500+ years is not terribly
|> strange.  I heard a report that some scientists now believe that it is
|> possible that some people alive today may have life spans exceeding 200
|> years if medical technology continues to make progress.  (Though, saying
|> "some" scientists is very different from saying "most.")

That's true, remember Chewbacka was 800+ years and ET was even older.;-)
From: brownga@wkuvx1.bitnet
Newsgroups: rec.arts.startrek.current
Subject: Re: Time's Arrow Paradox [spoilers]
Date: 30 Sep 92 22:45:54 CDT
Organization: Western Kentucky University, Bowling Green, KY

In article <1992Sep27.030335.26463@sol.UVic.CA>, jcowling@ophelia.UVic.CA (Scowling Jim Cowling) writes:
> 
> I just thought of something:  Twain's watch should not exist in the 24th Century
> as it would be infinitely old.  Think about it.  He picks up his watch in
> the future, where it is 500 years old, then leaves it in the cave.  Therefore,
> in the future it must be 1000 years old, then 1500 etc etc.  It's caught in
> a time loop where it has no existence after the 24th century, but must
> logically have infinite age at all points in its existence directly after 
> Clemens' time-travel.
> 
> In any case, it's a paradox without solution, and they screwed up.  What do
> y'all think?
> 
> -------
> Scowling Jim Cowling
> Creative Writing Department, University of Victoria
> -------
-- 
NO NO NO,,,, He picks uo the watch that he will get in the future.\
Its the one that he is going to loose, but now he remembers that he
will get it in the future, so he leaves it until he gets it in the
future.
But he now has it the old one in his pocket, so really there are two
watches there at the same time.\
Glad to be of Help, As I know you needed it:)

****************************************************************
* Gregory Brown, Computer Science Dept.*OOOOOOOOO My computer  *
* Western Kentucky University          *BIT me and boy did it  *
* E-Mail Brownga@Wkuvx1.bitnet         *take a big BYTE!       *
**************************************************************** 
Newsgroups: rec.arts.startrek.current
From: dv@cc-mac.nbn.com (David Vezie)
Subject: Re: Glaring Inconsistency (tm) (IMHO) in Time's Arrow Part One
Keywords: Data contraction inconsistency
Organization: Computer Concepts
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 04:34:33 GMT

In article <9319@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM> hroth@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM (Harris Roth) writes:
>The writers slipped again on this one.  I noticed the contraction of going to
>and gonna immediately.  I also noticed a contraction slip in on a previous 
>episode.  Data uses the contraction I've.  Could someone please post a 
>reminder about the episode.  

I heard Brent Spiner at a con say that while there are times when it
sounds like he's using a verbal contraction, he really doesn't.  And
if you listen to when he seems to say "I've", you can faintly hear an
'a'.  There was one time, however, when he did really, as Data, use a
verbal contraction.  That was in the first episode with Lar.  After Lar
was transported off the ship, Picard asks Data if he's okay, and Data
says "I'm fine." as he gives that eye twitch.  According to Spiner,
that's the only time.
-- 
David Vezie dv@sonoma.edu,dv@xnet.ssl.berkeley.edu
Newsgroups: rec.arts.startrek.current
From: pww9211@zeus.tamu.edu (WINFREY, PHILIP WAYNE)
Subject: Kling's real name
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: Texas A&M University, Academic Computing Services
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1992 02:08:00 GMT


  Okay, for you people that can't seem to catch on, the name of the  
Klingon planet is KLING.  Now, in case you didn't see Star Trek VI,
the name of the original home planet of the Klingons is Kronous I.

Got It?

Thank you.

Newsgroups: rec.arts.startrek.current
From: pjohnson@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca (Peter Johnson)
Subject: Re: Mistake in Borg episode
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 03:12:29 GMT

In article <spainhou.717982827@acacia.cs.scarolina.edu> spainhou@cs.scarolina.edu (Keith Spainhour) writes:
>roy@ug.cs.dal.ca (David Roy) writes:
>
>>I have noticed a small error in the episode where the Borg capture and
>>assimilate Capt. Picard.  The first words Picard (as Locutus) says is
>>	"I am Locutus of Borg...."
>
>>This is incorrect with the Borg as we are led to understand them in the
>>later episode called (I believe) 'I Borg', where the Borg cannot use, or
>>rather cannot understand the usage of the word I... All of the Borg are
>>one, they cannot understand themselves as seperate due to the fact of the
>>combined consciousness they all have.
>
>>I hope I am clear in what I am attempting to say... Comprende?
>
>	If I'm not mistaken, Locutus annonces himself in BOBW to the 
>federation as something like
>
>	I am Locutus of Borg . . .
>
>	I believe he used I in this instance as to better communicate with
>the federation people as he was their spokes person.
>
>Just a thought  :-)
>
>Maximusi

	That's "SpokesBorg" (tm) to you, Hu-man.

-- 
Peter Johnson	       "There are times, sir, when men of good conscience	
Independent Studies     cannot blindly follow orders." --Capt. Jean-Luc
University of Waterloo  Picard (Patrick Stewart) to Adm. Haftel, STAR TREK:
	   		THE NEXT GENERATION, "The Offspring"
From: cec35848@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Chuck Carroll)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.startrek.current
Subject: Man of the People joke
Keywords: joke spoilers MOTP
Date: 6 Oct 92 16:44:33 GMT
Article-I.D.: news.BvpL6C.DL1
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana

The following joke contains spoilers for "Man of the People."
You have been warned.

The following dialogue took place in my house (between 3 different
people) following the "meditation ceremony" between Troi and Alcar (sp?)

"She's been raped."
"Didn't you know?  She gets mind-raped every three episodes now."
"She must have stretch marks on the brain."

-- 
Chuck Carroll					      cec35848@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu
"Counselor Troi, do you sense anything from this 'Stimpy?'"
"I sense extreme stupidity...wait, there's something else...
I feel...Happy Happy Happy, Joy Joy Joy!"
Newsgroups: rec.arts.startrek.current
From: charlet@hubcap.clemson.edu (Charles E "Rick" Taylor IV)
Subject: Re: Hmmmmmm................
Organization: Clemson University
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 01:15:07 GMT

Maulik Harish Shah <msb0+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:

>POSSIBLE SPOILERS FOR TIMES ARROW II

>*****************************************

>Etc.

>I just caught TA2, and I went back and read a lot of what people said. I
>agree- it wasn't that good. It had some good ideas though. I have the
>same gripes that everyone else had- how did piccard now how to send a
>binary message (and a complicated one at that)  via data,  how did the
>crew get clothes and stuff, etc.

They must have been good at poker too ... :)

>	But I noticed something that I haven't heard (yet). Sorry if I'm
>repeating somehthing that someone else said. BUT, at the end, when Worf
>and Riker are debating on whether to fire or not, Worf says "We can't
>find out if Clemens made it intact or not" (or something roughly
>equivalent)
>	Yes they could have! They could have read his books!!
>	If clemens didn't make it back, he obviosuly couldn't have written his
> books.
> 	IMHO.

Well, if he *hadn't* made it back, some books wouldn't have been written,
true, but how would anyone know whether they had been written or not? 
The books would have never existed.

Time paradoxes are wonderful, aren't they? :)

-- 
+ Rick __     + EMAIL:charlet@hubcap.clemson.edu +   //\          + /|\ It's +
|      /aylor | IRC  : Tomalek / The Romulan     | \X/--\miga 500 |  J rainy |
+-------------+----------------------------------+----------------+----------+
+"Chemical Engr Students never stop ... They just make assumptions and go on"+
Newsgroups: rec.arts.startrek.current
From: IQTI400@INDYCMS.IUPUI.EDU (macphil)
Subject: Re: Will we have to pay to see Star Trek?
Organization: IUPUI
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 92 13:33:13 EST

In article <zkessin.717698880@chaos.cs.brandeis.edu>
zkessin@chaos.cs.brandeis.edu (Zach, the Lego Maniac) writes:
 
>harris3@ra.nrl.navy.mil (Kevin Harris) writes:
>>In article <90272@netnews.upenn.edu>, chaim@linc.cis.upenn.edu (Chaim R. Dworkin) writes:
>>> Will we all have to pay to watch Star Trek in the future???
>
>>My cable system carries the Sci-Fi channel on Basic Cable..meaning it is incl uded with
>>the basic channels, and so you don't have to pay extra for it.  I dunno about other cable
>>systems out there.
 
>Well I would like the Idea of a Sci-Fi channel, but the local cable
>co. here is not going to let us get it. What I am woried about is that
>PBS will no longer show DrWho, Red Dwarf, Blake's 7 etc because of
>this and that we will not be able to see these shows at all.
 
I would be greatly surprised if the Sci-Fi channel were to be considered
a "premium" channel, so I'm presuming the original poster of this info is
somewhat misinformed about how Basic Cable works.
 
Depending upon the equipment used, there will be a limit regarding the
number of channels they can transmit over the standard coax cable
(fiber optic will remove this problem) so it becomes a matter of what
channels will bring in the most subscribers.  Believe it or not,
the hottest channel theme for subscribers is stuff like "Home Shopping
Network".
 
Depending upon the company providing your cable service (and how full
their channel list is), you'll 1) see it added to a list which is not
full; 2) see it in place of another channel which gets bumped; 3)
not see it because they don't want to bump a channel and receive
lots 'n lots of nasty phone calls & letters.
 
If you don't receive it in your area, the best thing you can do is
politely pester them and organize others to do the same (providing
they are in the catchment area for the cable company), much like you
would if they were to remove your favourite television show off of the
air.  If you are rude and unpleasant, you won't really help your cause
(but may feel better for blowing off steam).
 
The thing to remember is they will show the channels they believe to
bring them the largest number of subscribers (so claiming "*everyone*
likes Sci-Fi" or something won't mean much unless they hear from *everyone*)
 
They have a pretty good idea of which channels are watched and which
formats bring in the subscribers as plenty of firms make money providing
this information.  Your best bet is to build numbers and let them know
who you are (politely, but firmly).
 
 
 
From: boell@hpcc01.corp.hp.com (Donald P Boell)
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 21:49:44 GMT
Subject: Re: My $0.02 about "Time's Arrow II"
Organization: the HP Corporate notes server
Newsgroups: rec.arts.startrek.current

I bet you will be hearing from the *spoiler police*.  Shame on you B^>


Xref: sparky rec.arts.startrek.current:14267 rec.arts.startrek.misc:9884 rec.arts.sf.tv:3614
From: grover@emunix.emich.edu (Grover Thomas)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.startrek.current,rec.arts.startrek.misc,rec.arts.sf.tv
Subject: Re: Will we have to pay to see Star Trek?
Date: 1 Oct 92 01:04:09 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Eastern Michigan University

>But you have to *pay* for "Basic Cable" don't you?????   Or are you one of
>those who ... ...        ;-)
>
>I get the general idea that "Basic Cable" now runs about $250/year.


Not only that, but even with cable you still get to see all those COMMERCIALS!
-- 
 __                                                                        __
(__)  Grover Thomas                   InterNet:  grover@emunix.emich.edu  (__)
(__) "We're going to have the best educated American people in the World" (__)
(__)                                                         --Dan Quayle (__)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.startrek.current
From: nunn@sura.net (Deborah Nunn)
Subject: Re: Lynch's Spoiler Review:  "Time's Arrow, Part II"
Keywords: TNG, Data, head, time-loops
Organization: SURAnet, College Park, MD, USA, NA, Earth, Milky Way
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 20:48:51 GMT

In article <1992Sep28.172727.9285@ncsu.edu> rhballan@eos.ncsu.edu (ROBERT HAMI BALLANTINE) writes:
>
>Tim Lynch writes:
>
>[lots of stuff deleted]

>>Here's another, for instance:  Why, *why*, did the away team not try to 
>>simply find Data via communicator?  We're given the clear impression from the 
>>hospital scene that they work; why not try it?  If in fact Data *had* lost 
>>the communicator in last show's poker game, then we'd be the wiser for it, 
>>and the show would look very bright for having thought of *and blocked* that 
>>easy way out.  Instead, it looks like they forgot.  Sigh.
>
>Data sold his communicator for $3.00 to the poker player in order
>to have money to play, remember?  It is odd that the crew didn't try
>to contact him via communicator anyways. Unless they did try while they
>were getting their clothing.(How they did that, I don't know)
>
Data did not "sell" his communicator, per se.  He pawned it to the
"other" Frenchman to get an opening stake for the game.  Since he
cleaned out everyone at the table, it is only logical to assume that he
got his communicator back.  In fact, wasn't it attached to the Indian's
vest when he walked into the hotel room?  I agree that they *definitely*
should have tried to use the communicators.  It was but one of the
annoying mistakes in the story line that made this episode *not* one of
my favorites.

**************************************************************************
     ___/\           /\   One to beam up, Scottie!
  __/ *   \         / /     (My dogs made me say it!  Really!)
 |         |_______/ /
 /////               \    Deborah J. Nunn       | Snail mail:
      |              |    e-mail: nunn@sura.net | SURAnet    
      |    ______    |    phone: (301) 982-4600 | 8400 Baltimore Blvd.
      |___/      \___|    fax:   (301) 982-4605 | College Pk, MD 20740
From: carey@server.uwindsor.ca (CAFEY PAUL               )
Newsgroups: rec.arts.startrek.current
Subject: uhhmmm What ideology?
Date: 30 Sep 1992 06:56:54 GMT
Distribution: all
Organization: University of Windsor, Ontario, Canada


    OFF topic and admit i have just got on the msg board. Therefore, this may       have been asked, but here goes. Not to offend our American friends, but was
   it me or what? Was there an American taint to the last movie in the series?     For eg. the universal peace and such... Also, with the new series, is not
   the "Next Generation", (hope this appropriate here) adding a sort of new         ideology, including themes such as universalism, mysticism, ooone world         peace, supernaturalism! Just wondering how you think about this and             what do you feel about the dirction they are taking in the show...              

     *Views expressed are only for thought and not intended to be offensive and do not reflect the U of W.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.startrek.current
From: happy@garfield.catt.ncsu.edu (Rusty Soots)
Subject: Promo Repost Request...
Organization: Computer and Technologies Theme Program, NCSU, Raleigh
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 18:17:26 GMT

  I missed the posting of the promo for "Man of the People" and would
greatly appreciate it if someone could re-post it.
  Also, if someone could do the same for "Realm of Fear" , I would be
even more grateful!  :)

Russell J. Soots -- North Carolina State University -- SED + SMB + minor in GN
Newsgroups: rec.arts.startrek.current
From: mgates@entiat.boeing.com (Michael Gates)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.startrek.current
Subject: Re: promos for: time's ar
Date: 30 Sep 92 19:48:18 GMT
Distribution: rec
Organization: Boeing Computer Services, Bellevue, WA
In-reply-to: johnnyp@athena.mit.edu's message of 29 Sep 92 18:36:45 GMT

>>>>> "John" == John Piscitello <johnnyp@athena.mit.edu> writes:
>Does every episode need a point?!??!  :-)
>
John> 	No, but hey, this episode had plenty of points and issues it
John> was trying to forward:

John> 	- what it means for a Data to confront his mortality

	This was completely ignored in the second episode.

John> 	- how Picard and Guinan "meet" is shown, with some very special
John> 	indications on the unique nature of their relationship
John> 	- Mark Twain's picture of mankind in "Connecticut Yankee in
John> 	King Arthur's Court" is confronted by Roddenbery's optimistic
John> 	vision of the future

	Yes, and having just delivered a vehement speech to Troi about the
justifications and lies used by conquering societies in the Turbolift, he
believes her instantly and without evidence when she says that her people are
not like that. (Funny how we've never seen any "blue fellows" among the crew
before)

John> 	- we get to see the crew in 19th-century dress, having some
John> 	fun beating up cops, posing as actors, and paying the rent -
John> 	a change of pace from sitting on the bridge

	Yep, if Beverly didn't curl her hair and wear glasses those paranoid
19th century people would suspect she was from the future.  It should also
have been obvious that Riker impersonating a cop would cause trouble.

John> 	- we explore time-travel issues of actions in one century
John> 	"instantaneously" affecting the results 5 centuries later

John> 	I mean hey, that's a hell of a lot more than you're going to
John> get from most shows on an off-week!

	I grant you that, but these are the same people who produced
Yesterday's Enterprise, Sins of the Father, and other truly great shows. They
obviously *can* do it right. That they don't bother a lot of the time really
makes me mad.

	Other things I found pathetic:

	Data can dodge a laser defense system, and move so fast trying to save
Lal that his hands couldn't be seen. And he couldn't relieve Clemens of the
gun?

	Guinan was hurt, possibly badly. Picard may have been hurt. And
Beverly runs off through the time portal after the aliens? This is so far from
her established character it astounded me. Think about The High Ground among
others.

	What I think is that they bit off far more than they could chew. If
done well, Times Arrow would have made a good TNG movie.
--
et tu mgates?
From: jeffski@pathos ()
Newsgroups: rec.arts.startrek.current
Subject: Re: Political Cartoon
Followup-To: rec.arts.startrek.current
Date: 6 Oct 1992 22:20:37 GMT
Organization: U.C. College of Natural Resources
NNTP-Posting-Host: pathos.berkeley.edu

In article <1992Oct5.095125.1@cubldr.colorado.edu> matthews_k@cubldr.colorado.edu writes:
>In article <1aieafINNmi1@agate.berkeley.edu>, jeffski@biocon () writes:
 
## Sorry I don't have (or have knowledge of) gif file capability, because
## there's a great political cartoon in yesterday's (i.e. 1 October) 
## San Francisco Examiner. So, I'll describe it...
 
## The scene is the bridge of the Enterprise. It's sort of an amalgam of
## the two series; the viewscreen wraps around like on TNG, but the helm
## console is one piece instead of two.
 
## On the screen is a Ferengi-ed Perot (believe me, it doesn't take much 
## to make him look like a Ferengi, and his personality doesn't seem too
## different in retrospect either), saying "I made a mistake. Won't you
## let me try again?"

#Jeff(ski)
#
#I tried e-mailing you but it bounced.  You didn't put your full address in
#your header.  Anyway, I'd love to have a copy of this cartoon.  Do you have
#access to a fax machine, or can I send you an SASE + $.10 for copying costs
#to get one?
#
#Thanks!
#
#Kellie Matthews-Simmons
#internet::matthews_k@cubldr.colorado.edu

Certainly! My email address should work; I know I receive email from
friends who use "jeffski@insect.berkeley.edu" but my mailing address is:

Jeff Wutzke
10944 San Pablo Ave #632
El Cerrito, CA 94530

... and a SASE is perfectly fine for anyone who wants a copy of the
cartoon.

________
Jeffski.
________
From: michael.davidson@the_matrix.com (Michael Davidson) 
Newsgroups: rec.arts.startrek.current
Subject: Questions on Time's Arrow
Date: 27 Sep 92 17:07:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: The MATRIX BBS - Birmingham, AL - 205-323-2016
Reply-To: michael.davidson@the_matrix.com (Michael Davidson) 


JB.Question 1)  I understand how Data knows it's 42 *North*.  Equators
  .can be defined.  But I thought that east and west lines were
  .subjective.

Nope. They're measured east and west of the prime meridian.