From: holzman@fnalno.fnal.gov (Daniel B. Holzman)
Subject: Re: FOR WHATEVER IT'S WORTH (not much)
Organization: Fermi National Accelerator Lab
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 20:41:08 GMT
X-Posted-From: fnalno.fnal.gov
X-Posted-Through: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In article <1992Aug20.201052.21811@meaddata.com>, joyce@meaddata.com writes:
> I am convinced that people will believe what they want to believe so I
> could argue all I want until I'm blue in the face and people will
> still believe what they want. I respect that and hopefully, you'll
> respect my right to do the same. It's the first (and last) time I will
> ever be in this newsgroup but if the following is true from FAQ and I
> quote: "Many atheists would be happy to believe in the existence of a
> God; all that they ask is that he provide convincing direct evidence
> of his existence." then maybe it's worth it to put my 2-cents' piece
> in.
> 
> It seems like a good number have had very unfortunate experiences with
> "organized religion" and so-called "Christians". I have too but I
> cannot use those as a basis for my belief in God since all humans are
> fallible and will always fail me at one time or another. Sad also, is
> the fact that too many people are masquerading as Christians when they
> really are not, based on the criteria that Jesus Christ himself, the
> center person in Christianity, has put forth. As a result, people like
> Mahatma Gandhi, for example, got turned off by "Christians" even
> though he said he liked Jesus Christ.
> 
> I have to admit, I am not here to convince you all that there is a
> God. There will always be arguments in people's minds for and against
> it, it's what people choose to believe. I just ask that you consider
> the person of Jesus Christ, the most loved and most hated person who
> ever lived, all because He claimed to be God. There are 3 possibilities to His
> claim, 1) He was not telling the truth and He knew it which makes Him
> a liar; 2) He was not telling the truth and He did not know it which
> makes Him a lunatic; and 3) He was telling the truth. Other people
> more knowledgeable that I am can give dissertation-like arguments to
> the above but I just present mine simply: 1) If He was lying, then He
> chose to suffer and die for a lie, which makes Him really stupid and
> all His followers nuts; for a lie, Paul was beheaded, Peter was sawed
> in two, Stephen was stoned, etc. A study of these people's lives show
> quite a transformation after they had seen Jesus rise from the dead;
> 2) A lunatic could not possibly give a message
> like the Sermon on the Mount and would be illogical in speech and
> thought; a study on Jesus` life could easily refute this; 3) He must
> be then telling the truth and all of us either reject or accept Him
> for what He claimed to be and the consequence of our choice. It is
> a moot point for me to argue about whether God exists or not; there
> are too many people who already believe God exists and yet has chosen
> to ignore the person of Jesus Christ. To those who are interested, I
> suggest studying the lives of your ex-contemporaries: Dr. Charles
> Joad, Josh McDowell, and C.S. Lewis. At least 2 of these people have
> started to write books that have sought to destroy the "myth of Christianity".
> 
> To those who seem to blame God for every vile thing that happens in
> this world and asks why He does not fix it, I would just like to say
> that He will, He is just being patient because He is not willing that
> any should perish. He gave us free will, and we all have chosen to
> make a mess of our world by doing as we pleased yet we blame Him for
> it. I hope I don't sound like I`m preaching but whatever y'all choose
> to believe, mark God's Word on this that one day:  ".. EVERY knee shall bow and
> EVERY tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord." See y'all there!
> 
-- 
Daniel B. Holzman                    | Eight Words the Witch's Rede Fufill:
HOLZMAN@FNAL.BITNET                  | An It Harm None, Do What You Will
HOLZMAN@FNALC.FNAL.GOV.INTERNET      |
                                     | All Acts of Love and Pleasure are
Love doesn't subtract,               | Her Rituals
   it multiplies    - Heinlein       |
                                     | Speak the Word.
Disclaimer:  Fermilab's far too large to have an opinion, let alone mine.