From: mitch@novavax.UUCP (Mitch Silverman)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa,soc.culture.jewish,alt.atheism,alt.slack
Subject: Re^6: Atheism and Intelligence
Date: 29 Dec 92 07:56:30 GMT
Organization: Nova University, Fort Lauderdale, FL

waldo@cybernet.cse.fau.edu (Todd J. Dicker) writes:
>mitch@novavax.UUCP (Mitch Silverman) writes:
>> waldo@cybernet.cse.fau.edu (Todd J. Dicker) writes:
>> 
>> I was not saying that I felt the purpose of Judaism to be influencing
>> a deity, I was saying that it is the avowed purpose of the Conservative
>> and Reform liturgy to do so, and that my attending Conservative and
>> Reform services, as "an atheistic Jewish SubGenius minister" might
>> be seen as conflicting with that avowed purpose.

>It most certainly is NOT the avowed purpose of O and C liturgy to 
>influence a diety.  That is only the very literal meaning of the language 
>and that position leaves the sub-structure and essense of the prayers 
>unexamined.  The entire prayer service is about a progression from one 
>state of mind to another, and state of holiness to another.  Nothing is 
>expected from these prayers except that we have an opportunity to bring 
>ourselves to a higher level of holiness for a short time.  The prayers, 
>their words, structure and order, help us to train our minds and souls to 
>reach that level with time, study and practice.  Perhaps you might read 
>the siddur I wrote to get a better understanding of this.

Actually, what you say about the O and C liturgy (note that I
never said *anything* about the Orthodox liturgy--I wrote about
the Conservative and Reform liturgy) sounds quite similar to my
understanding of the Reconstructionist liturgy--with which I am
in considerably closer agreement.  I'd be interested in examining
your siddur, though--how might I procure a copy?  Is it in the
Judaica collection (quite good, from what I understand) at FAU's
library?
 
I must disagree with you, however, about the avowed intention of
the Reform and Conservative liturgy--the Reform liturgy
especially is *excruciatingly* clear, in its English component,
in prayers that glorify and ask for the intercession (directly or
indirectly) of an omnipotent, male deity in the lives of the
congregation members. This may indeed be "merely" the literal
meaning of the prayers, and the "sub-structure and essence of the
prayers" may well be more important--that's how I feel, at any
rate.  The liturgy, however, does *not* reflect this
deconstructed importance in any obvious way-- unlike the
Reconstructionist liturgy.
 
I apologize if I gave the impression that I thought you were accusing me
of not being Jewish.  All I meant was that this is something *I* decide,
not something anyone else can or may decide for me (one way or another).
 
Actually, now that we have the patronization and ad hominem stuff out
of the way (and now that you begin to sound like Mordcai M. Kaplan 8-})
I think that there is considerable agreement between our positions.
 
As well, I apologize for my part of the miscommunication up to this
point.
 
Now, about this siddur of yours....

Mitch Silverman                    | As Voltaire never said, "I
Student, New College of            | disagree with what you say,
the University of South Florida    | but will defend to the death
mitch@cfraix.cfr.usf.edu           | your right to say it."
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa,soc.culture.jewish,alt.atheism