HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: nexus@ylum.cgd.ucar.edu (Jeff Berry)
Subject: Re: Rialto
Organization: Climate and Global Dynamics Division/NCAR, Boulder, CO
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 21:59:06 GMT

In article <727868185.F00001@ocitor.fidonet> Longshot@f19.n291.z1.fidonet.org (Longshot) writes:
>In their best Jack Nicholson voice, Dennis O'Connor said to All;
> DO> From this comes the quote "What news on the Rialto?", uttered by
> DO> the merchant from _The Merchant of Venice_. The merchant was concerned
> DO> that his ships get back to Venice before his debt to Shylock came due.
> DO> From this quote comes the nickname of rec.org.sca ne alt.sca.


Well, just to be overly pedantic:-)
It is actually uttered by one of the Sal's, Salerio and Salanio, who  are 
friends of Angelo, the aforementioned Merchant.  


Which Sal it is a subject of some debate, last time  I checked, as the speech
tags used vary widely, as do the actual names, between the various folios and
quartos.



badger                                      Don Alexandre Lerot d'Avigne
Jeff Berry                                  Seneschal of Caer Galen, Outlands
               nexus@ncar.ucar.edu
NCAR doesn't tell me what to think, and I return the favor.
"You're a notch and I'm a legend"-------Alice Cooper
"I'm a revolution romancer"----Hawkwind
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: greg@silver.lcs.mit.edu (Hossein Ali Qomi (mka Gregory F. Rose))
Subject: Re: persona help
Organization: The Rialto
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 21:57:36 GMT

Master Arval writes:

>E. G. Withycombe, "The Oxford Dictionary of English Christian Names", says
>that "Felicity" did not come into use as a name until the 17th century,
>when similar "abstract attribute names" became fashionable among the
>Puritans; the earliest citation she gives is "Phelisstie" in 1641.  There
>were two early Sts. Felicitas, so the name is probably acceptable, but not
>good medieval recreation.  You might consider "Felicia" instead, which
>Withycombe cites as early as 1199 in a variety of spellings (p.116-117).

I think this shows one of the limitatios of the more common sources used
in name adjudication in the SCA.  Withycombe is best used to prove a period
provenance rather than to disprove one.  The Exchequer Rolls of Edward III
show an amercement paid by one "Felicitye Bowyer" of Lincoln in 1342.  I
recall an entry in the cartulary of the Abbey of Bury St. Edmunds in which
land was transferred from a church of "Saynte Felicitie" to the abbey.
Given the vagueness of Middle English spelling conventions, I fail to see
"Felicity" as a rendering of "Felicitye" or "Felicitie" as "not good
medieval recreation."  If we are going to allow modern spelling equivalents
at all, this would seem to be the best of cases.  I'll take the usages of
actual medieval documents over Withycombe any day (as I am sure that Arval
would).  The problem is that we too often use the limitations of secondary
sources to decide issues which they are not ultimately competent to decide.

Hossein/Greg


Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: schuldy@progress.COM (Mark Schuldenfrei)
Subject: Re: West Kingdom's Land Fund, Kingdom Trust, Inc.
Organization: Progress Software Corp.
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 15:04:25 GMT

Discussing KTI, and SCA, Inc.

Hal Ravn wrote:
  If there were inter-corporation agreements, then the 'wall of
  separation' between teh two corporations would be breached--or at
  least, thinned considerably.

I'm not sure this is the case, Hal.  Many corporations (although I'm
thinking of regular businesses) allow other corporations to name a
Board Member, or seat one of their own Board Members on each other's
Board of Directors.  Either as a non-voting presence, or as a full
member.  This does not automatically "breach the separation" of the
two corporations, or even weaken it.

He also provided me a reason against separating the two groups:
  The argument against is above.  The argument for is to keep
  'outsiders' from taking over the Land Fund board and removing SCA
  members access and control of over it.

Right enough.  Thanks Hal.

	Tibor
--
Mark Schuldenfrei (schuldy@progress.com)
[I'm just showin' you my opinions: this ain't a gift]
From: rogerp@wndrsvr.la.ca.us (Dr Roger D. Parks)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: mail
Keywords: mail, armour, sources
Date: 27 Jan 93 05:28:55 GMT
Organization: Wonder Server - Public Access for SoCal

JRECHTSCHAFF@hamp.hampshire.EDU writes:

Good my Lady Lyanna,

> Greetings to the Rialto,
>   A number of those who fish here use the term "chain mail".  This term,
> like that of plate mail, banded mail and scale mail is incorrect.
> Mail refers to mesh - the interlocking iron links.  Other forms of armor
> are called plate armor, scale armor etc.   Some authors do use the term
> chain mail but it is outdated and today considered very bad terminology.
> 
> In Service,
> 
> Lyanna of Bergental

Forgive an out-of-date armourer, but the three sources that fall first to
hand (Ashdown, Martin and Bashford Dean...can't find the Wallace catalogue
copy that belongs here in the manor, and the other is out in the forge)
would tend to disagree with you in re both chain and banded mail.  Of course,
one always has one's pet theory in re banded, but to the best of my knowledge
and belief, it's stall banded  mail.

The 'plate mail' abonmination is usually laid at the door of the D&D
'reserachers' who also gave you the utterly ludicrous notion of hearldry
that most new-comers seem equipped with in great profusion.

I have the distinct honour to remain,

Y'r S'rv't within the Society,

Laird Andrew MacIan of Blackthorne, called the Wyvern

  Given by hand this Twenty-sixth day of January, AS XXVII (1993 CE)
   at ShadowDragon Manor in the Barony of Altavia, Kingdom of Caid

___________________________________________________________________________
Dr Roger D. Parks		'Have fun stormin' the castle!'
Andrew MacIan of Blackthorne    ShadowDragon Enterprises
+1.714.358.8244                 Consulting on software systems and armour


[*> Management may or may not agree with the above comments.
[*> Wonder Server; Just Waffling around... Call 1-310-370-3069
From: graham@Civil.Concordia.CA (Everard)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Need info on leather boxes
Summary: appeal for sources of period leather boxes (1350-1450)
Keywords: leather, box
Date: 21 Jan 93 06:26:03 GMT

I have a friend who would like to get a source (preferably a photo or a
title of a book) on leather boxes from the period of the Hundred Years War,
or thereabouts.

He's been tooling leather for about a year now, and he's getting ambitious. 
He wants to be able to make the box as well.

Does anyone have practical advice of box construction and the covering
thereof with leather?  If he can't get information on a period method of
construction he'll give a modern one a try.

thanks.
							graham.
From: dgreen@athena (David Greenebaum)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Province jurisdictions || "Persona Packs"
Date: 22 Jan 1993 02:22:24 GMT
Organization: /etc/organization
NNTP-Posting-Host: athena.berkeley.edu

Greetings from Bjalfi!

Quoth Arval:
>Branches must be geographically separate and connected.  Two branches
>cannot share territory.  Whether, when, and how a shire can created from
>territory previously assigned to another is essentially in the hands of the
>kingdom seneschal.  

Is it allowed anywhere for a branch to have a hole in it, thusly:
     ___________________
     |  _____          |
     |  | B |    A     |
     |  |___|          |
     |_________________| where branch B is not a part of branch A?
It's not allowed in the West, sofarasIknow.

---------------------  Bjalfi Thordharson/College of St. Katherine/Province of
 |\  | |\  |\  |// |       the Mists/Principality of the Mists/West Kingdom
 | > | |\\ | \ |/  |   David Greenebaum/University of California/Berkeley, CA
 |<  | | \ |   |   |   dgreen@athena.berkeley.edu, dgreen@garnet.berkeley.edu
 | > | |   |   |   |
 |/  | |   |   |   |   "I make mistakes, but I am on the side of good -- by
---------------------  accident and happenchance." -- the Golux
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: ae766@yfn.ysu.edu (David Sanders)
Subject: Re: A Little of Everything
Organization: Youngstown State/Youngstown Free-Net
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 14:29:02 GMT


Greetings yet again from Vajk!

"Tom Perigrin" writes:

  > And because I spent so much time without SCA sanctions,
  > it took me 19 years to get an AoA, and I wouldn't be
  > surprised if I never see any other award.  My poor wife
  > is still unnoticed.

Geez, and I thought I had the record, at 16.5 years I still
don't have one, and may very well never.  After all, I like
being a peasant!

To continue:

  >  Thats [sic] because almost all of these tasks, each of
  >  which is probably worth of a Laurel in and of itself,
  >  was done without SCA sanctions.
  >
  >  Thats the problem... it gets cold and lonely out there
  >  sometimes.

Well, yes, it does.  But such devotion to medieval stuff, as
opposed to SCA stuff, is in my opinion a higher calling!
(No smiley here, I'm serious)

The SCA is fun, but it should not be confused with medieval
re-creation.

Vajk

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: kbaldwin@pica.army.MIL (Karl Baldwin, LSED)
Subject: Request to be added to the List
Organization: The Internet
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 16:06:06 GMT

Subscribe SCA@mc.lcs.mit.edu   Karl Baldwin
<kbaldwin@pica.army.mil>
From: Henry.Best@f120.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Henry Best)
Sender: Uucp@blkcat.UUCP
From: moonman@camelot.bradley.edu (Craig Levin)
Subject: Re: Authentic?
Organization: House of the Moss Rose
Date: 27 Jan 93 23:22:11 GMT

Greetings, fellow Rialtans. Ld. Archer (?) said, commenting on my
post:

>>	Anyone who _won't_ go through the trouble is lazy. 

>Gentle Lord, 
>I feel that I must take umbrage at that remark.  I work for a living, I run 
>an outside business, and I am a free-lance writer.  In my spare time, I have 
>no interest in spending time in the library.  Research is work, and I don't 
>care to invest the emotional and intellectual energy in it.  I am here to 
>have fun, not to labor.  (Mind you, I do my share of the dishes.)

	The research I've been talking about is rather basic stuff:
stuff on the order of: what's proper garb for an SCA event, what's
proper behavior for an event-little stuff. 

>Are you saying that I have a character flaw, or that an unwashed heathen 
>such as myself is an Abomination Unto Your Sight, and Has No Place In The 
>SCA?

	No, I'm saying that someone who's trying to add to the
atmosphere ought to make an effort at wearing garb, not doing mundane
things, etc. at an event.
--
Happiness is a belt-fed weapon. 
      -Gunther of Braunschweig 
 
Craig Levin/Pedro de Alcazar, Illiton, MKdm moonman@camelot.bradley.edu
From: Tim@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Tim)
Sender: FredGate@ocitor.fidonet
From: greg@silver.lcs.mit.edu (Hossein Ali Qomi (mka Gregory F. Rose))
Subject: Re: Heraldic Questions...
Organization: The Rialto
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 06:22:07 GMT

Moreach writes:

>The color-on-color issue is sort of a red herring, really. I can prove that
>there were quite a few examples of this "heresy" right in Merrie Old
>England, and in Tadhg's time-period. I've seen them (they're mostly pretty
>horrid, BTW). 

A minor point, but I wouldn't call much of anything in the age of the
Irish missions heraldry at all.  St. Columbanus is rather too early
for that.  Remember, Tadhg is an _old_ (i.e., early period) bugger.

>Oh Tadhg, lighten up! I have people in my shire who are perfectly able to
>design their own armory with very little tinkering from a herald, once they
>have the rules. Not every non-herald is a no-talent twit, you know. The
>SCA is crawling with artists and artisans. For heaven's sake, this isn't
>the local Moose Lodge...

I think you are _exactly_ wrong there.  Most SCA heralds have a smattering
of SCA heraldry and not much else.  With a few notable exceptions there
is almost no one in the Society who has made a systematic, serious study
of medieval armoury at the level of, say, a senior undergraduate thesis.
The only sense in which the SCA isn't like the local Moose Lodge is that
we dress funny, tell the IRS we are an educational foundation, and are
rather more tolerant of socially marginal behavior.

>Piffle. Get a peerage in something else. All work and no play makes Jack
>a dull boy. Have Vashti teach you to dance. Play music. Cook. 

Just as an aside, he's a rather fine embroiderer and, for my money, one
of the better scholars in the SCA (although I grant that he can be rude,
crude and marginally socially acceptable, but I find those some of his
more endearing attributes -- Tadhg's really a much nicer person than
he would have the world believe).

Hossein/Greg
From: jschmidt@oolong.Tymnet.COM (John Schmidt)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: The Nature of Change and Cynicism
Summary: Adios, Rialto!
Date: 27 Jan 93 00:19:14 GMT
Organization: BT North America (Tymnet)

There is a natural growth of all organizations, and all participants
within organizations, from innocence to knowledge to cynicism in the
modern sense.  At the best of times, one can capture the knowledge
yet remain innocent, and approach new subjects with joy.

Rec.org.sca as a newsgroup has recently become as contentious as other
good newsgroups, and is losing the polite edge as well.  Now innocents
do not post here, nor organize parties at events, or propose badges;
they receive too much negative feedback, and have as a behaviour example
various argumentative types.

I have learned of many good things here, and improved some friendships
as well.  But the time has come to go autocrat narrow focus events,
and interpret the way of the Axe (thanks Steve), and return to the joy
in the SCA that I have found--which is mainly in the medieval romantism
from modernity, that is, that knights can be shining, maidens like
being rescued and Camelot did exist.  And that there is a place to play
the faithful english soldier at Agincourt, or what have you, for a 
few moments.

My final comment (the only excuse for this post) is that the Rialto
went from the second stage to the third somewhere when people argued
that we are more a debate or an academic squabble than a meeting, for
it was when people were more personal, and thought of the consequences
as if all was said face to face, that this newsgroup was more polite,
overall.

Cheers, and may you enjoy your tenures here.

Good bye.

John Schmidt/ Sir John Theophilous
From: dgreen@athena (David Greenebaum)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: What is this Group?
Date: 23 Jan 93 05:02:25 GMT
Organization: /etc/organization
NNTP-Posting-Host: athena.berkeley.edu

>I didn't realize that anything was excluded from the Rialto.
>Always seemed to me that any SCA thing was fair game...
>
>Cavalamar

There are certain topics which are _de_facto_ excluded from the Rialto
through the simple expedient of ignoring them whenever they come up.
Others are "excluded" because they have been done to death any number
of times, and people are sick of them.  Either of these types of topics
could find its place here.

But I would argue against it.  Setting a.s up against r.o.s (and some
_would_ see it as "against") would cause a mickleness of bad feeling
and perhaps nasty and flame-ridden rivalries.  I wouldn't want one group
to lose readership to the other--especially, I wouldn't want one group
to get a reputation as the "incendiary" group and the other as the "calm"
group.

---------------------  Bjalfi Thordharson/College of St. Katherine/Province of
 |\  | |\  |\  |// |       the Mists/Principality of the Mists/West Kingdom
 | > | |\\ | \ |/  |   David Greenebaum/University of California/Berkeley, CA
 |<  | | \ |   |   |   dgreen@athena.berkeley.edu, dgreen@garnet.berkeley.edu
 | > | |   |   |   |
 |/  | |   |   |   |   "I make mistakes, but I am on the side of good -- by
---------------------  accident and happenchance." -- the Golux
From: haslock@rust.zso.dec.com (Nigel Haslock)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Tadhg's Preferred Geographic Area
Date: 23 Jan 1993 00:19:21 GMT
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation - DECwest Engineering
NNTP-Posting-Host: rust.zso.dec.com


The thought that the source of a significant influence on the core area
needs to be included in the core area in more than faintly ridiculous.

Christianity was certainly a significant influence on the medieval culture
of western Europe. Should Jerusalem and the Holy Lands therefore be
considered to be part of Western Europe? Arabic learning was equally vital
to the renaissance but Araby is not western Europe.

It therefore seems logical that a core area can be defined which does not
include any of the centers of the renaissance and yet be a model of 
renaissance thinking. The operative word is model. The best we can ever
hope to be is a model of the life and times we hold to be ideal. 

None of this means that I either agree or disagree with Tadgh's definition.
I suspect that he has identified the core area of 'the High Middle Ages'
but laking sufficient enthusiasm for 'the High Middles Ages' the question of
correctness is not relevant to me.

I chose to model my life on that of a tenth century irish artisan who has,
by dint of extensive time travelling, aquired a lot of skills that were not
present in tenth century Ireland. On the other hand, I am a twentieth century
individual who enjoys learning how to make things. The SCA supports me by
providing a pool of enthusiastic teachers and collaborators as well as a 
seemingly endless supply of new crafts, few of which are ruinously expensive
to learn. The SCA also provides consumers for the product of these crafts.

I am not enthusiastic about dressing up in flashy clothes which is one 
reason for modelling an irish artisan. My wardrobe can be small, simple and
easy to care for. The definition of a core time and place is irrelevant as 
long as the way I am allowed to participate remains unchanged.

	Fiacha 
	Aquaterra, AnTir
From: leighann@quetzal.sybase.com (Leigh Ann Hussey)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: awarding awards
Date: 25 Jan 93 17:03:53 GMT

Greetings to the Rialto from Siobhan!  Lothar writes:
|> 	Giving out AoAs locally would eliminate the reprehensible
|> Midrealm practice of bored people going "Ooooooh, Aaaaaaah, OOOOOOOH,
|> Aaaaaayyyyy, murmur, murmur, murmur" after every AoA scroll is read.

That's pretty rotten, allright.  I've only ever heard choruses of "Oooh, Ahhh, teeheehee"
around here when there have been things to show (especially rich and exotic things).
I've never heard anything but respectful silence, occasionally loud applause if the award
is popular, and the usual mild whispers that no court seems to be without -- most people
do take their conversations away from court, though some people just don't seem to be
able to (but they'll talk through any damn thing, not just an Arms awarding).

Sounds to me as though there's rather a larger problem out your way than would be
solved by giving AoAs locally -- for example, if they're bored, what are they doing in
court??

Slainte!
	- Siobhan

----------------
Leigh Ann Hussey
leighann@sybase.com        {sun,lll-tis,pyramid,pacbell}!sybase!leighann
Siobhan ni hEodhusa, ORL, OGB, etc.
Argent, a pale vert, surmounted in base by a lion dormant or, on a chief
wavy vert an Irish harp or.
"The West is the best."  -- Seamas MacMhoire
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: ilaine@panix.com (Liz Stokes)
Subject: contact in Kansas?
Organization: Panix Public Access Internet & Unix, NYC
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 15:09:15 GMT

	I've been asked to find an SCA contact in Witchita KS. Email to
me please.
	-Ilaine

-- 
Liz Stokes         | 	Ilaine's E-Z Garb Workshop
Ilaine de Cameron  | 	We're going to try an experiment now. Instead of using
                   | 	a loom, we're going to wind all the yarn into balls
ilaine@panix.com   |    and adopt an infinite number of kittens...
From: dgreen@athena (David Greenebaum)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Triskadigiphobia
Date: 22 Jan 1993 18:34:44 GMT
Organization: /etc/organization
NNTP-Posting-Host: athena.berkeley.edu

Hello from Bjalfi!

Quoth William:
>But I have heard that most American hotels do not have a
>13th floor or a room number 13. They simply skip 13 and
>go directly from 12 to 14. Europeans usually do not
>take their supersticions quite that far.

American airports rarely (never?) have a gate #13, either.  "Icarus
Airways flight number 1313, now boarding at Gate C-13..."

---------------------  Bjalfi Thordharson/College of St. Katherine/Province of
 |\  | |\  |\  |// |       the Mists/Principality of the Mists/West Kingdom
 | > | |\\ | \ |/  |   David Greenebaum/University of California/Berkeley, CA
 |<  | | \ |   |   |   dgreen@athena.berkeley.edu, dgreen@garnet.berkeley.edu
 | > | |   |   |   |
 |/  | |   |   |   |   "I make mistakes, but I am on the side of good -- by
---------------------  accident and happenchance." -- the Golux
From: cozzlab@garnet.berkeley.edu ()
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Persona question
Date: 26 Jan 1993 17:18:47 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: garnet.berkeley.edu

In article <1993Jan25.043934.530@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu> greg@silver.lcs.mit.edu (Hossein Ali Qomi (mka Gregory F. Rose)) writes:
>... If your father was Ludwig, you would be
>"AElfgarus filius Hludowici".

...and in "theodisk" (=people's speech) it would be AElfrag Ludwigs sunu,
I think....


Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin		Dorothy J. Heydt
Mists/Mists/West			UC Berkeley
Argent, a cross forme'e sable		cozzlab@garnet.berkeley.edu

Disclaimer:  UCB and the Cozzarelli lab are not responsible for my
opinions, and in fact I don't think they know I have any.
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 13:58:45 EST
From: Therion <HZS@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Psuedo-illegal targets (was Re: Illegal targets (was period
 <DOCONNOR.93Jan22055949@potato.sedona.intel.com>
 <1993Jan25.164857.5289@colorado.edu>

Otto obscurely asks:

>I thought that everybody playing at non-S&S styles was required to have
>something better than hockey gloves, specifically, a continuous metal or
>hard leather plate across the fingers.  Any marshals with a comment on
>the use of hockey gloves alone for finger protection?

Yeah, it's a great way to get your hands broken. Unfortunately, not every
kingdom requires more than just hockey gloves. I am normally very leery about
"requiring" certain pieces of armor as opposed to strongly recommending them
(anybody want to start a discussion on the East Kingdom's new *requirement*
about vambraces?), but even I, who have never been called a safety nazi,usually
won't let fighters go out polearm or greatsword without some form of additional
hand protection.

                                       Therion the facetious,

                                                   marshal of everything.
From: doconnor@sedona.intel.com (Dennis O'Connor)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Dennis O'Connor's Flamepost
Date: 22 Jan 93 05:43:14
Organization: Intel i960(tm) Architecture
NNTP-Posting-Host: potato.intel.com
In-reply-to: RIALLC@ecc7.ateng.az.honeywell.COM's message of 21 Jan 93 15:54:54 GMT


RIALLC@ecc7.ateng.az.honeywell.COM writes:
] Perhaps if this person was no longer responded to, he would cease to find 
] pleasure in broadcasting abusive posts upon the net.

You mean abusive post like the one you just posted ? Or don't you
think unsupported  accusations of misconduct and calls for ostracism 
to be "flames" ? 

Maybe you don't realize exactly how conceited, ill-mannered,
patronizing and essentially hypocritical such posts as the one
you just made might be considered. Maybe the phrase "net.cops"
isn't part of your vocabulary yet.

We were all new to the net once. Such mistakes are common to neophytes.
Most can't even define a "flame" is except by "I know it when I see it."

Well, it's probably inevitable that every so often someone
will post something like RIALLC's post. Hopefully this reply
will lengthen the interval till the next time.





--
Dennis O'Connor			doconnor@sedona.intel.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca