From: lynch@ils.nwu.edu (Richard Lynch)
Subject: Re: Why I Am a Feminist
Organization: The Institute for the Learning Sciences
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 23:26:39 GMT

In article <1992Nov10.020552.5079@netcom.com> payner@netcom.com (Rich Payne) writes:
>In article <1992Nov8.011058.1764@ils.nwu.edu> lynch@ils.nwu.edu (Richard Lynch) writes:
>>In article <1992Nov7.155722.26638@netcom.com> payner@netcom.com (Rich Payne) writes:
>>>In article <1992Nov6.161630.9723@midway.uchicago.edu> mec6@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>>>>payner@netcom.com (Rich Payne) writes:
>>>>>mec6@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>>>>>>payner@netcom.com (Rich Payne) writes:
>>>>
>>>>>>>Men and women both have good points and bad points, strengths and
>>>>>>>weaknesses. Reading posts here gives one the impression that the only
>>>>>>>things men do deserving consideration is to rape, sexually harrass, have
>>>>>>>sex with their children, etc... 
>>>>  
>>>>>>Oh please.  You're tempting me to pull your post that says, "Who here has
>>>>>>said this!  Give examples!  If things are as you paint, you should be
>>>>>>able to point just about *any* post to prove your point!" or something
>>>>>>like that.  (Then we could have 50,000 follow-ups where I go, "BUT IS
>>>>>>THIS REPRESENTATIVE!!".)  But I think it's not a good idea to get Rich
>>>>>>started.  :)
>>>> 
>>>>>Well, there are a few duplications, but there were 175 instances of the
>>>>>word rape in the last 10 days. Here is a list, I can compress the posts
>>>>>and mail them to you if you want.
>>>>
>>>>Well, if you think talking about rape, sexually harrassment and
>>>>child abuse by default *implies* that's the only things men do, okay 
>>>>you win.  I, for one, have not drawn the same conclusion.  
>>>
>>>Lets's turn that around, is rape a normal everyday topic, which, like
>>>the weather, you would expect to come up in most conversations?
>>
>>Is this alt.weather?
>>I didn't think so.
> 
>Is this alt.evasion, alt.clever.comeback? I didn't think so. 

Since the logic seems to escape you, I'll expand.  Here on alt.feminism, one
can hardly expect normal everyday conversations because it is a newsgroup with
a decide focus.  It should be no surprise that rape shows up a lot in a group
that exists to discuss feminist issues.  Counting the number of times the word
has shown up proves nothing, and closer analysis could show something.

>>>Because it eventually gets brought up in a majority (I am pretty sure)
>>>of topics here.
>>
>>Most of the times *I've* seen it brought up were in Gazit leavings.
>>You know, those wonderful little posts where he finds some truly stupid quote
>>from a RadFem to pick apart.
>>Another time includes that guy who said he couldn't say rape was wrong.
>>Then there are all the ones that pointed out that only a very small percentage
>>of men rape.
>
>But it seems that it gets brought up in 100% of the custody topics,
>and I doubt if you could have a rape-free abortion or pregnancy discussion.
>It seems much more than a remote possibility.

Why *shouldn't* rape come up in custody and abortion discussions?  Don't you
think rape victims should be treated as special cases in these topics, or at
least it's worth discussing?!!!

>>Face it, your data sampling is worthless.  Your conclusion may be correct, but
>>so far, you've got nothing in the way of proof.
> 
>Pleaze, this is stupid. Go back and re-read, rini asked for EXAMPLES.
>I posted examples. You can take your data sampling comment and jump in
>the nearest lake.

rini asked for EXAMPLES of the overwhelming anti-male bias you claim to see.
You gave 175 instances of the word rape, many of which she has shown to be not
anti-male at all.  You have failed to post examples of what you claim to see.


>>>I would also like to point out that feminists say that what men say, and
>>>the way they say it, limits and devalue women. If this is true, does
>>>not the same apply to the way feminists talk about men? 
>>
>>Discussing rape does not automatically mean one is discussing all men, as you
>>seem to think it does.
>
>Then the claims feminists make about language devaluing women are equally
>suspect.

Feminists claim:
Using men to refer to women + men implies that women is insignificant.

Rich Payne claims:
Using rape implies an anti-male bias.

Fact:
Many of the usages of the word rape as sampled here are *not* anti-male.
-- 
"TANSTAAFL"     lynch@aristotle.ils.nwu.edu