From: djiv_ltd@uhura.cc.rochester.edu (David Iverson)
Newsgroups: sci.edu
Subject: Re: Grades
Date: 10 Apr 92 11:03:21 GMT
Organization: University of Rochester - Rochester, New York

Speaking as one who is still acruing grades...  I'm somewhat saddened to
think that my grades are going to be used as information for a 'first cut'
of the applicant pool, but that isn't going to get in the way of my
education.  While I see other students structuring their schedules to get
easy grades, I and my fellow Physics majors are definitely not in that
category.  The way I figure it, if I get a B or B+ for a course, it means
that the course was challenging and that I met that challenge.  An A means
the course was too easy, a C means I probably didn't work hard enough
(although I'll blame the T.A. everytime.)

I think that getting fair grades in tough courses will ultimately be
vindicated.  I've certainly had a better education.  Once I get into the
real world and grades fade into unimportance, that education is still going
to be with me. 

Leigh Palmer mentions his advocacy of eliminating first year grades.  That
is the policy here at the University of Rochester, and I'm not so sure that
I agree with it.  I came from a good high-school and graduated as a National
Merit Scholar.  It seems to me that most of the people at the UofR share a
history of excellence in high-school (otherwise they wouldn't have been
admitted).  We're told that college is going to be harder than anything that
we've ever seen.  Instead, I (and most people polled) found the first year
to be surprisingly easy.  This arose out of a fear of failure and an
increased use of tried and true study skills.  The effect is that most first
years that I know, breezed through their courses and got good grades.  Then
sophomore year comes around and sophomore slump sets in.  Study skills
degenerate because of the lack of a first year challenge, courses get harder
and grades plummet.  

I would suggest that the first year curriculum be strengthened  (I'm sick of
hearing professors complain about the decline in student knowledge when my
first year classes were a high-school re-cap).  And that, if any grades are
going to be omitted they should be first semester sophomore grades, they're
the ones that haunt everybody's transcript.

I know that this is long winded, but one more comment: In regards to the
computer programmer who couldn't get into Med School. If you really want
to do something, people can only stand in your way temporarily.  You can
always re-take courses you didn't do well in.  You can always opt to go to a
less prestigious school and then transfer if you show merit.  You can even
attend schools as a part-time unmatriculated student (no admission procedure
required) and then matriculate when you've demonstrated competence.  It
takes a little longer, but you learn more and gain more respect.  I suppose
that if I was going to flame I'd say that if someone switches to being a
computer programmer after being rejected from Med School, they probably
didn't have a deep drive to be a physician in the first place, in which case
I'm glad that they didn't make it.

-David Iverson    djiv_ltd@uhura.cc.rochester.edu
Opinions expressed are not my own, nor are they anyone elseUs




>Actually I've been giving out grades for 26 years, and I'm giving a final
>examination in less than an hour to a group of students all of whom elected
>to take my course (astrophysics) which is not required for any major program.
>I do know how damaging they can be, and my anecdotal repertoire on the 
>subject would depress the most idealistic young teacher, so I won't trot it
>out here. There! I hope I've corrected any misimpression I may have given.

>>IF we really had the right kind of curriculum, so that a student could
>>adjust the curriculum taken to his/her ability, getting an A would be an
>>indication that the program was too weak.  By the time students get to
>>college, this concern with grades has, in most cases, thoroughly blunted
>>their educational abilities, and this is even a major problem in PhD
>>programs.  It is not confined to American students, either.

>Canadian students are near clones, in fact. One difference they used to
>maintain was that Canadian students did not have the orientation toward
>standardized multiple-choice tests (like the SAT and the Iowa tests) that
>US students grew up with. The fixation with grades probably set in at a
>later age here as a result. I propagandize those students with whom I
>associate by referring to grades sarcastically and by trying to reorient
>them to what they should consider to be the valuable product of their 
>efforts. It works with some; I'm pleased to say it worked with *all* of
>my own children, all of whom maintain their love of learning to this day.

>>The evil is so great that they should be abolished.  Those who rely on them
>>will be discombobulated, but so what?  Admit that they are garbage.

>That's a radical view with which I find myself at least partially in
>agreement. I have advocated abolishing grades in the freshman year (or
>"first year" as we say in Canada) to ease the high school to college
>(or "university" as we say in Canada) transition. That transition is as
>stressful a passage as any I know save birth and death, and intrinsically
>useless impediments to its success (like grades) should be kept entirely
>out of the way. Few of my colleagues will endorse my idea, however. Have
>you managed to get rid of grades at your multiversity, Herman?

>Leigh Palmer