HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jac@ds8.scri.fsu.edu (Jim Carr)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: First Aid Liability
Date: 18 Dec 92 16:18:52 GMT
Reply-To: jac@ds8.scri.fsu.edu (Jim Carr)
Distribution: na
Organization: SCRI, Florida State University

In article <BzF1F1.6CB@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu> sdfinuca@cayley.uwaterloo.ca (Sean Finucane) writes:
>I was planning to take standard St. John's First Aid and also CPR next
>year and was wondering, as the Heading says, about liability.

I had the Red Cross CPR class in the past year, and this was one of 
the subjects they covered in the course.  The situation in the US is 
certainly different than in Canada -- you might feel safe responding 
at home and not on the other side of the border, for example. 

In the US, rules vary from state to state.  Our state, like many others, 
has a "Good Samaritan" law that protects you from financial liability. 
You can still be sued, mind you, you just will not have to pay if it 
is established that you acted under the law.  The Red Cross person said 
that she knew of no cases where a private citizen was sued for helping. 
(After all, (1) I do not have malpractice insurance and (2) juries would 
not look on such things very favorably.)  This covers the kinds of 
errors an amateur might make, plus the injuries that often accompany 
CPR.  The course is a good idea.  If anything, you learn the heimlich 
for babies and unconscious adults. 

The rules are tricky.  You and I, as non-professionals, are not required 
to render assistance to a person in need even if we are trained in CPR. 
There is no liability for deciding not to use this skill, no matter 
what reason (if any) you might base such a decision on.  In these days 
of AIDS, for example, not having the handy resuscitation barrier might 
be a damn good reason if you did not know anything about the victim. 

However, once you *start* CPR, you *are* liable if you stop!  The only 
valid reasons to stop giving CPR are the arrival of trained medical 
people, the need to go for assistance if no other person shows up 
who can do so, or total physical exhaustion.   

>If these things aren't a problem at my level, is there a level where
>it is a concern.  I'd like some day to take an EMT course.  Does it
>make a difference?

The Red Cross person, who is a trained EMT, said that she is required 
to render assistance.  She has no choice.  There does appear to be a 
level where there is a difference in the various legal liabilities 
and responsibilities, but I am no expert and I am *sure* these laws 
vary from state to state and country to country. 

--
J. A. Carr                                    |  "The New Frontier of which I  
jac@gw.scri.fsu.edu                           |  speak is not a set of promises
Florida State University  B-186               |  -- it is a set of challenges."
Supercomputer Computations Research Institute |   John F. Kennedy (15 July 60)
From: martini@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (ok)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Emergency food
Date: 12 Dec 92 08:31:46 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin TX

In article <1992Dec8.024106.27316@eos.arc.nasa.gov> jbm@eos.arc.nasa.gov (Jeffrey Mulligan) writes:
>Actually, "milk bones" taste like slightly stale rye krisp.
>
>	Jeff Mulligan (jbm@vision.arc.nasa.gov)

Quite true.. for 100$, I'll mail a videotape of milkbones being eaten, with
my dog, if ya like, to prove by her distress that she is not the one consuming
the treats.. 

pardon, if this thought gets posted twice, my mail-demon-child didnt like the
last post i wrote..
From: fauvel@IRO.UMontreal.CA (Sylvain Fauvel)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Asolo Hiking Boots
Date: 11 Dec 92 18:48:31 GMT
Reply-To: fauvel@IRO.UMontreal.CA (Sylvain Fauvel)
Organization: Universite de Montreal

In article <1992Dec10.172950.26695@slcs.slb.com> pjones@asl.slb.com writes:
>Does anybody have any experience with Asolo hiking boots,  in
>particular the AFX 530?  It is a medium weight boot with full
>leather uppers and it retails for about $135.  Any comments
>about any Asolo hiking boots will be appreciated.
>
>Phil Jones
>pjones@asl.sinet.slb.com


	I have a pair of Asolo Yukon, very heavy boots, top quality.
    The cost is high ($260 Can. $) but the quality is good.  I've
    been told that all ASOLO BOOTS ARE NARROW and mine are.  I like that.
    With wide boots, my feet tend to slide.  I already lost some toe nails
    because of that.  I don't know the AFX 530 though.  Hope this helps.

							Sylvain Fauvel
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: jojo@leland.Stanford.EDU (Joanne Spetz)
Subject: Re: Sleeping Bags
Summary: Campmor sales on TNF bags
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 92 19:03:23 GMT

 <1g91grINNnis@menudo.uh.edu> ST1T0@jetson.uh.edu (Carl Seiler) writes:
>Can anyone recommend a good sleeping bag?  (Har!  What a 
>question!).  I'm thinking of getting one for Christmas.  
>[stuff deleted]
>Most of the time it gets down in the teens or twenties, so 
>I need one that will keep me pretty warm,
>I'm not sure how much I should plan to spend for a really 
>decent one.

We just received our Christmas gift from my parents of two North Face
Snowshoe bags.  I decided to go with a synthetic bag because I won't
have to baby it as much as you need to with down bags, and went with
TNF for the lifetime guarantee.  The bag is rated to 15', and they have
bags that are rated for colder temps.  I seem to remember somebody on the
net telling me to consider Moonstone and Marmot bags.

Anyway, Campmor, the mail-order outfit in NJ has the bags we got on sale
(in last year's colors):  $160 each.  They charge $4.50 for shipping (less
than CA sales tax would have been).  Call 201-445-5000.  I think they have
a toll-free number, but I can't find it.

Jo

-- 
Joanne Spetz				Department of Economics
jojo@leland.stanford.edu		Stanford University

"Red-haired women buck like goats."  --James Joyce in _Ulysses_
Xref: sparky rec.backcountry:9688 rec.skiing:8629 rec.climbing:4995
From: sokay@cyclone.mitre.org (Stephen J. Okay)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry,rec.skiing,rec.climbing
Subject: Re: Has anyone ever saved anyone wearing an avalanche beacon?
Date: 16 Dec 92 14:58:42 GMT
Organization: Mitre Corporation, McLean, VA

In article <Dec15.002632.70480@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU (wayne trzyna) writes:
>In article <1992Dec14.220128.9090@u.washington.edu> davin@hardy.u.washington.edu (David Veale) writes:
[Ever find somebody alive wearing an avalanche beacon?]

>I recently met a guy who told of a member of his heli-skiing group
>dying by falling in a tree well.  (Tree-wells are the biggest cause of
>death heli-skiing, not avalanches.  The skier falls in head first, then
>suffocates.  Anyone who's tried to get back up with ski's on in *deep*
>snow can understand how this could happen.)

While not the same, I had an experience once that can attest to the exhaustion
factor. I dropped a glove off a lift once that ran over a trail, on the side
of a hill facing down the mountain, but just barely. No problem I thought,
I'll just go pick it up on my way back down, esp. seeing as how that particular
run followed the lift pretty much straight down save for one small out-of-bounds
hill that I dropped it on. It was probably a hundred feet long , but there
was about 2 feet of compressible snow on the ground  and it was a lot steeper
than I thought and I was all bundled up and
in my ski boots and everything. I got to the top totally exhausted and
almost passed out and managed to stagger back down the hill. It was the first 
time I'd tried something like that and it will be the last. You just have no
idea how much something like that can tax you until its almost too late.
The weight of the gear and clothing you are wearing becomes unbelievable
quite quickly.

I ended up leaving the thing there of course and considered myself lucky
to get back.

---Steve
-- 
---------
sokay@cyclone.mitre.org
		"Your Mind....My Playground" ---me
From: tamada@cheshire.oxy.edu (Michael K. Tamada)
Subject: Re: Yosemite concessionaire chosen
Organization: Occidental College, Los Angeles, CA 90041 USA.
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 20:26:38 GMT

In article <1992Dec18.162631.22282@unocal.com> stgprao@st.unocal.COM (Richard Ottolini) writes:

>Friday's LA Times reports that the Deleware North Concessionaire Inc. was
>choosen to replace Curry Company.  This $1.2 billion company runs concessions
>at 70 sports places, airports, hotels and zoos.  This is its first national
>park.  The concessionaire will pay 20% of gross to the Park Service and pay
>for cleanups.  20 years ago the comapny was fined for laundering money in
>Los Vegas, but claims that era is in the past.

     Oh oh, if this is the same Delaware North Co. that owns the Boston
Bruins and Boston Garden, then I'm not optimistic.  These guys are
hard-line negotiators with $$ profits always on their minds.  Which
is an okay attitude for an ordinary business, but not for a commercial
operator of National Park concessions.  I hope the Yosemite contract has
plenty of controls and clauses that will keep Delaware North in line:
my prediction is that once they've got the contract signed they'll
start doing whatever they darn well please to make more money.  From what
I saw in Boston, cooperation and compromise are not their strong points.

--Mike Tamada
  Occidental College
  tamada@oxy.edu
From: jagrant@emr1.emr.ca (John Grant)
Subject: Re: Invitation from Rockport
Keywords: Rockport, Kilamanjaro
Organization: Energy, Mines, and Resources, Ottawa
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 05:00:55 GMT

In article <1992Dec15.201334.20390@oakhill.sps.mot.com> mack@oakhill.sps.mot.com (Gregg Mack ( Sun )) writes:
>mdm24@cas.org (Matthew D. Marquand) writes:
>
>>Got home last night to a letter from Rockport (footwear manufacturers)
>>containing an invitation to a stress test of Rockport shoes on
>>Mt. Kilimanjaro next summer.
>
>>It appears that they will be selecting candidates from a pool of
>>respondees based on fitness, interviews, experience.
>
>>Any body else get this invitation?
>
>Well, yes I also received this invitation!  It looks like they want
>to hike 45 miles up this tall African mountain in a single day. They
>appear to be serious and the invitation/application was very detailed.   
>It contained a form to be filled out by your physician stating that
>you had no known physiological reasons why you should not be allowed
>to hike this far and at this altitude (>19,000 ft.).
>
>Looks like they pay for everything and even put you on a rigorous
>training schedule.  They openly admit that it is for a "publicity 
>stunt".
>
>I can get into some endurance stuff, but this looks too much for me!

	One day! - that can't be right! 
	It's about 5500 metres vertical from
	the gate to the top (Uhuru Peak).  Also, I don't think there
	is very much correlation with the amount of training and
	the success rate.  Many people who are in great shape can't
	handle the altitude but on the other hand, Jimmy Carter
	made it to the top and I don't think he was an amazing
	physical specimen!  I got to the top, but I had a splitting
	headache from the last hut at 5000 m until I got up and
	back down to 4000 m.  Not pleasant.

-- 
John A. Grant						jagrant@emr1.emr.ca
Airborne Geophysics
Geological Survey of Canada, Ottawa
From: hall@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Hal F Lillywhite)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: East Vail Chutes Avalanche Death
Date: 16 Dec 92 15:10:45 GMT
Organization: Tektronix Inc., Beaverton, Or.

In article <1950071@hpgrla.gr.hp.com> jonw@hpgrla.gr.hp.com (Jon Wade) writes:


>I heard some very disturbing details over the weekend concerning the
>avalanche death in the East Vail chutes...


>The "Friend" heard Jamie calling but did not climb back up to help fearing a
>secondary slide.  He returned home an d for some reason did not notify anyone
>and told them that Jamie had not returned from skiing that day and gave no
>further details.  The next morning at 6:30am he called again and reported that
>he knew where Jamie was and what had happened...

This friend was obviously disturbed and in emotional shock.  He had
narrowly escaped being caught along with Jamie.  He may have also been 
suffering from a guilt feeling because his friend was caught.  Is
this a good reason not to notify the proper authorities?  I don't
think so but similar things happen quite regularly.  That's why SAR
deputies and others in similar positions get training to deal with
emotional reactions.  It's not clear who this friend told that Jaime
had not returned, but things could also have been different if those
people had notified the proper authorities (I'm assuming they
didn't).  If a sheriff's office gets a report that, "My friend says
his buddy didn't come back from skiing," they will almost always
follow up on it.  The standard SAR training emphasizes the
importance of taking all such reports seriously.

I guess the lessons to be learned from this are:

1.  Report all such incidents (even if you think someone else
already has - maybe they thought you were going to report it).

2.  If you know someone who describes such an incident or overdue
person, be certain it gets reported.
From: fauvel@marte.iro.umontreal.ca (Sylvain Fauvel)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: First Aid Liability
Date: 18 Dec 92 16:37:33 GMT
Organization: Universite de Montreal, Canada

In article <1992Dec18.131457.22726@brtph560.bnr.ca> jbl@mesaadm.cre.nt.com (JB) writes:
>In article <10985@vice.ICO.TEK.COM> Hal F Lillywhite,
>hall@vice.ICO.TEK.COM writes:
>>Another aspect is your obligation to help someone.  As far as I
>>know, no state requires anyone to give medical attention in a
>>volunteer capacity.  You can walk away and forget it if you want to.
>
>Not quite.  I am also a US citizen and Red Cross trained and thank God
>not a lawyer.  We were warned that although obscure, there was the
>following possibility:  If you are currently certified and neglect to
>give aid where no other aid is available, you can be liable.  In other
>words, if you pass an accident where no other help is on the scene, you
>neglect to render aid, and it can be proved that you saw the situation
>and failed to help, you are liable.  This is sort of the reverse of the
>GS law and would be hard to prove, but hey that's what they told us.
>
>I go along with the previous posts on the other points.
>
>***************************************************************
>************ Laissez le bontemps rouler ****  JB  *************
>* no e-mail address, but if you feel inclined: 919/992-2489 * 
>***************************************************************

Like several post mentionned, there is a "Good Samaritan" law in
most US States as well as most Canadian Provinces.  I am not sure
about Ontario but i think they have one.  In Quebec, there is none
but the instructors of the Canadian Ski Patroll are telling us that
history showed that if you stick to what you learn in class, people
can sue you but have absolutely no chance to win.

	Also, in Quebec, if someone need help you have to do whatever
you can, even if you have no first aid training.  Anybody can call
911 or go for help.  Again, i am not sure about Ontario.

	Is there anyone in Ontario who could give us more information.

						Sylvain Fauvel
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: wing@canada.ceo.dg.com (Brian Wing)
Subject: Re: Invitation from Rockport
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 92 17:29:24 GMT
Organization: Data General (Canada) Inc.

czichon@psyche.csc.ti.com (Cary Czichon) writes:
: In article <1992Dec15.201334.20390@oakhill.sps.mot.com>
: mack@oakhill.sps.mot.com (Gregg Mack ( Sun )) writes:
: 
: >Well, yes I also received this invitation!  It looks like they want
: >to hike 45 miles up this tall African mountain in a single day. They
: >appear to be serious and the invitation/application was very detailed.   
: >It contained a form to be filled out by your physician stating that
: >you had no known physiological reasons why you should not be allowed
: >to hike this far and at this altitude (>19,000 ft.).
: 
: Is their training program supposed to allow acclimatization to 19,340 feet in
: one day?  Amazing!  Can you spell cerebral edema?  I knew you could.
: 
I find this extremely hard to believe as well.  I strolled up Kili about 
two years ago.  We went about 3000' vertical per day and the whole expedition
took about four days up and two down. The guides were very watchful of your
health and if it looked like the altitude was getting to you, down you went.
I'm not in too bad condition but was surprised how tough it was.  I made it
to the top, but 4 of our party of 10 didn't.  
And why the hurry, I wonder.  It seems to me a better test would last six days 
and not just one.  Not only that, it's a fascinating hike as you progress through
distinctive flora and fauna regions; I'd hate to be rushed through it.
But, hey, if you really do it, do let us know how it goes.  Give my regards
to Siera, the Head Guide.  If he hasn't retired yet.
-- 
Brian Wing                         
Software Support Critter           dotdot: brian_wing@canada.ceo.dg.com
Data General (Canada) Inc.        "Hello?": +1 604 273 5100
From: mcg2@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (Marc Gabriel)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Lyme Disease E-mail Network...
Date: 18 Dec 92 20:09:15 GMT
Organization: Lehigh University

In article <8172@lib.tmc.edu>, EWALKER@utmmg.med.uth.tmc.edu (Eldon Walker) writ
>In <1992Dec17.155602.47145@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu> mcg2@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu writes:
>
>>  Self appointed experts in the academic community have
>> declared that LD can always be cured with short courses of simple antibiotics
.
>>
>  I cannot speak for all of academics, but I can say I do not know one
>person in spirochete research who would make this (patently incorrect)
>statement concerning Lyme borreliosis.

I can give you a list of 3 doctors who regularly publish in New England
Journal who continually maintain this.  So as not to be accused of libel, I
will not publish their names on the net.  However, if you would like a list of
references, just send me a memo.  I will be happy to send you their names
privately.

-Marc.
-- 
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------
             Marc C. Gabriel '93    -  U.C. Box 545  -
               (215) 882-0138        Lehigh University
              mcg2@Lehigh.EDU       Bethlehem, PA 18015
                Compu$erve: >internet:mcg2@Lehigh.edu
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------
 I'm still thinking about the witty one-liner I'm supposed to put here.
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry

Your feedback needed in the next 10 days!!

I am taking a group to Baja and would like to be informed about
current road conditions, considering all the storms we've been
seeing. 

If there is anyone who will have info by the 18th, please e-mail
it...plus any references to other sources for info.  I will use
triple A and the weather news, but haven't really delved into
other avenues for reports.

Our plan is Hwy 8 to Mexicali, south to Canyon Tajo, south to 
Puertocitos (Hwy 2?), onto Bahia San Luis Gonzaga, over the hills (4WD)
to Catavina on Hwy 1, then south to Mulege by Dec 27.

Thanks, in case I get any responses.

Arlie Haig
707-527-7180
arlie@ hpsad.sad.hp.com
From: alleyne@hera.ics.uci.edu (Brian D. Alleyne)
Subject: Re: Re:Cold feet( Thanks for responses )
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Reply-To: alleyne@ics.uci.edu (Brian D. Alleyne)
Organization: Univ. of Calif., Irvine, Info. & Computer Sci. Dept.
Date: 17 Dec 92 20:09:36 GMT

In article <5620029@hpsad.sad.hp.com> arlie@hpsad.sad.hp.com (Arlie Haig) writes:
>I heard one is supposed to sleep naked inside a down bag for
>maximum, efficient warmth. *<:)%=0<
>
>Sincerely,
>Arlie

The problem with down bags is that if they get damp/wet, they
loose their efficency. So, if you are tired and cold after a long
day hiking, and you get into your bag, you'll feel warm, possibly
very warm INITIALLY. Then you get really cold really fast. This
happens because usually the clothes that you were wearing are damp,
plus when you get tosty and warm you tend to sweat. Both these
contribute to your bag getting damp.

I keep a full set of clean thermals for sleeping. This means that
I change into a clean dry set of clothes before going to sleep. Also,
this keeps my skin and natural oils away from the bag, which will
increase the useful life of the bag.  Only on feeling
cool do I put on extra clothes. First thing on is a scarf/neck-warmer and
a toque/hat. Then glove liners and extra wool socks.
Then additional clothing. If I start getting too warm, I take off
clothes before I start sweating. So I guess the formula is ``minimal
clothes while not cold''.

Under no condition breath into the bag if you are cold!!!!!!!!!

If it is going to be very cold, use a vapor barrier. This guarantees that
your perspiration will be kept out of your bag.

Brian

-------------------------------------------------------------
   		alleyne@ics.uci.edu

If found depressed, administer massive doses of chocolate.
-------------------------------------------------------------
--
Brian D. Alleyne
From: greg@antizen.EBay.Sun.COM
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: [l/m 4/15/92] Oak/Ivy		Distilled Wisdom (1
Date: 18 Dec 1992 19:31:52 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Distribution: world
Reply-To: greg@antizen.EBay.Sun.COM
NNTP-Posting-Host: antizen.ebay.sun.com


I personally have had great success in dealing with itching from 
poison oak from a paste made from baking soda and water. This is
also effective in controlling the oozing that is so irritating.

2 to 3 applications of baking soda paste basically supresses itching
throughout the day, for me at least. I like this remedy specifically
because of it's non-toxic nature.

Greg


Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: pah2824@kramden.nyu.edu (phil hoff)
Subject: Adirondack winter trips
Summary: ADK winter trips
Keywords: adirondack
Organization: New York University
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 01:47:58 GMT

Regards,
Phil

Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: irad@wlbr.iipo.gtegsc.com (Internal Research and Development)
Subject: Re: Grand Canyon in December?
Summary:  Do it!
Organization: Contel Federal Systems
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 92 18:41:23 GMT

In article <1992Dec10.153338.45548@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu> mimo@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu writes:
>	I wanted to know if anyone had any information on camping at
>the Grand Canyon (South Rim) in December. I'd like to know if anyone
>has done it before at this time of the year and if so, what to expect
>in terms of weather conditions.

You can expect a few inches of snow on the ground.  With some luck it
might be sunny and blue.
(The sky, not the snow.)

It probably won't get down below 10 F at night.  

Much better weather can usually be found IN the Canyon itself.  Down on
the Tonto level (3300 feet below the South Rim) it might likely
not quite freeze at night.  Indian Gardens/ Phantom Ranch is nice, or
for the more adventurous, take the Hermit or Boucher trails to Boucher creek,
where old mine shafts provide shelter against possible storms  (I'm lazy,
I don't like to carry a tent.  Bad idea.)

e-mail me for more info;  I've spent 87 hiking days in the Canyon so far.

Howard Shaw
e-mail:  FAC_SHAW@WSC.COLORADO.EDU
From: ed@titipu.resun.com (Edward Reid)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Avalanche Information
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 92 23:28:35 EST(-0500)
Organization: Accuracy, Ltd.
Reply-To: ed@titipu.resun.com (Edward Reid)
X-Mailer: uAccess - Macintosh Release: 1.6v0

dittmare@gtewd.mtv.gsc.gte.com writes:
> The best use of an avalanche beacon is never *having* to use it! (I know I've
> heard that phrased better as a piece of "wisdom" - anyone got the words?)

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

Edward Reid  (8*}>
  eel:   ed@titipu.resun.com  or  nosc.mil!titipu.resun.com!ed
  snail: PO Box 378/Greensboro FL 32330