HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jgoldber@todah.chem.utoronto.ca (Joel Goldberg)
Subject: Re: What is Jewish religion? (long...)
Organization: University of Toronto Chemistry Department
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 17:50:07 GMT

In article <1992Jul28.123835.26959@tudorct.com> shdan@tudorct.com (Dan Shimoff) writes:
>Has anybody ever been told when arranging for a mohel "Uh.  I'm new to
>this so you get a special rate."?  Or something similar?. 
   Yes. A new mohel will often give a cut rate.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: levine@symcom.math.uiuc.edu (Lenore Levine)
Subject: Re: What is Jewish religion? (long...)
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 20:15:43 GMT

sutin@ra.ucsc.edu (Brian Sutin) writes:

>In article <1992Jul22.183547.16457@cbfsb.cb.att.com> hillel@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (hillel.e.markowitz) writes:
>->In article <14k5hgINNe7c@darkstar.UCSC.EDU> sutin@helios.ucsc.edu (Brian Sutin) writes:
>->>
>->>Could you please explain why cannibalism would appear wrong to a cannibal?
>->>If I can gain strength by eating my neighbor, why should I not do so?
>->>
>->The question as phrased is nonsense in the literal meaning of the
>->term.  The question at hand is *Jewish* belief.  I would demand a
>->cannibal stop practicing as a cannibal because it is objectively
>->wrong and the cannibal beliefs are wrong.  I would not try to argue
>->from inside those beliefs.

>Why are cannibal beliefs wrong for a cannibal?  Obviously they are wrong
>for a Jew, but to attampt to correct the cannibal would be proseletyzing.

Are the abominations practiced in certain parts of North and East Africa
(I don't want to go into detail, just that they involve a mutilation of
women) OK just because certain cultures accept them?

Was the job discrimination against Jews, blacks and women, practiced a
couple of generations ago, OK because the American culture accepted it
then?
 
>->Similarly, a Jew should follow the Jewish principles because they
>->are right and were given by G-d, not because of any "tradition",
>->"culture", or "history" [...]

>I disagree.  A Jew should follow Jewish law because of the covenant of
>Israel with G-d.  I'd call that "contract law."  Perhaps the laws
>encompassed by the covenant would be abhorent to a cannibal.  How do you
>know thay are "right?"

How do we know anything? We can't, not absolutely -- but we can
(sometimes) practically.

You know theoretically we can't exactly predict location or velocity
-- but that doesn't mean that if we drop an egg, there's any significant
likelihood it's going to fall up...

>->| H_Markowitz@att.com |  So too is it with the Jews and the TORAH  |

>Brian Sutin				sutin@helios.ucsc.edu

Lenore Levine
levine@symcom.math.uiuc.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: mark@fenris.albany.edu (Mark Steinberger)
Subject: Re: looking for an apt in J'lem
Organization: State University of New York at Albany
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 92 19:19:27 GMT

In article <618@nysernet.org> astein@nysernet.ORG (Alan Stein) writes:
>Somehow, Yigal's attempted point escapes me.  Could it be that he
>prefers Jerusalem revert to the status it once shared with Berlin,
>that of a divided city with barbed wire separating the the parts?

Nah. More likely, he'd prefer to see it united under Arab rule.

--Mark

Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: warren@nysernet.org (Warren Burstein)
Subject: Re: Anti-Orthodoxy (was Re: O-C-R debate)
Reply-To: warren@nysernet.org
Organization: Mail to News Gateway at Wang Labs
Date: 29 Jul 92 00:05:17 GMT

In <dfs.712340854@ro> dfs@doe.carleton.ca (David F. Skoll) writes:

    You're confusing disagreement with condemnation.  I'm sure no
    responsible Jewish leader of any movement would say that Orthodox Jews
    are wrong to follow tradition, observe the mitzvot, etc.  They might
    at most say that such practices are not necessary.  But they're still
    a valid expression of Judaism.

A friend of mine grew up in a R family and later became O.  His
family's Rabbi says he's a good R Jew - he studied the sources and
decided for himself what was relevant to his life.

My friend isn't sure if he likes this complement ...
-- 
/|/-\/-\       The entire world		Jerusalem
 |__/__/_/     is a very three-sided carrot.
 |warren@      But the Kibo
/ nysernet.org is paranoid.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: O-C-R debate
From: RABBI CHARLES ARIAN <CARIAN@auvm.american.edu>
Date: Thursday, 23 Jul 1992 20:24:18 EDT
Organization: The American University - University Computing Center

In article <1992Jul23.192739.22976@umbc3.umbc.edu>, shimoff@umbc4.umbc.edu
(Eliot Shimoff) says:
>
>
>But, from a survival value perspective, there are  also good reasons
>for Orthodoxy-advocates to object to C,R,&R practices.  By providing
>alternatives, they legitimatize non-normative practices.  If there
>were only Orthodoxy, non-observant Jews would know that they are
>deviating from normative practices.  But with C,R,&R alternatives,
>a Jew can be non-observant (i.e., non-Orthodox) and still believe
>that he/she  is doing the right thing.
>
>The same argument might be made against afternoon Hebrew schools.
>If the only form of J. education was yeshivot, then most J. kids
>would attend, and get solid J. educations.  But now (in the US),
>J. parents can meet their "responsibilities" by sending their kids
>for a few hours a week -- and most J. kids get very little.
>
If only this were true!

I think the opposite is the case; if given a choice between day school
or no Jewish education at all, most Jewish parents would, to my regret,
choose no Jewish education at all.

Similarly, if given the choice between Orthodoxy and nothing, most
American Jews will choose nothing.

I was raised in the Reform movement. Today, as an observant Conservative
Jew, I am extremely critical of the Reform movement.

Nevertheless, I am glad that the Reform movement exists because it serves
exactly the role that Larry, who started this thread, ascribed to it.
Through the Reform movement I was made aware of my Jewish identity, given
an opportunity to learn and experience, until I eventually "outgrew"
my Reform roots.

I can state as absolute fact that if given a choice between Orthodoxy and
nothing my parents would have raised me with nothing.
From: hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Multiple Hechshers [was: Re: New Jersey Kashrut Laws Declared
Date: 29 Jul 92 15:22:57 GMT
Organization: Purdue University Statistics Department

In article <29JUL199210540758@vms.huji.ac.il> rwerman@vms.huji.ac.il (ROBERT WERMAN) writes:
			
			........................

>>                                      The butcher shop down the street
>>   from me offers Lubavitch and Satmar schechita on request. There
>>   cannot be an absolute division into kasher and non-kasher.

>**************************

>I think that Jews have enough problems without multiple hechshers.
>Multiple hechshers mean multiple troubles for Jews.  We have a 
>great number of such fellows around here and it only makes trouble.

>They even give hechshers on bottled water, to my mind unbelievable.  
>I know that 1/2 the things I ate 10 years ago which were Kosher 
>then are no longer kosher according to several of the new hechshers.

>And it is not only here; I find the same thing on my travels.  In the
>US, in Britain.  Everything has become tref; of course, Coers Beer and
>other non- or even anti-Jewish concerns will buy a Hechsher to make an
>intrinsically, machine made from beginning to end product with no tref
>or grapes in it salable.  

>I even witnessed a major Bet Din pronounce ALL Israeli matzot non-kosher.

>Traveling on an El Al plane can be wild.  The local hechsher is not
>good enough for some of the passengers; at least two London ones, a
>Swiss and Belgian one were requested by neighbors of mine.  And finally
>there was the fellow who refused all food and took out his home-made
>sandwich.  Yiden, gevald!

This seems to be at least against one of the examples in the Talmud.
In this example, it is stated that if 9 out of 10 butcher shops are
kosher, that one can assume that a piece of meat found in the street
is kosher.  I suspect that the rabbis were not so distrustful.

There is also the discussion of inadvertent or unknown contaminants
in the Talmud.  Even for flour for Passover, 1 part in 3600 was the
allowable limit.  This was so that the miller or baker only had to
use reasonable care in cleaning out the bins.

These allowable amounts of contamination are far higher than what occur 
under modern conditions.  We do not have to be that paranoid.
-- 
Herman Rubin, Dept. of Statistics, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette IN47907-1399
Phone: (317)494-6054
hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Internet, bitnet)  
{purdue,pur-ee}!pop.stat!hrubin(UUCP)
From: ehrlich@bimacs.BITNET (Gideon Ehrlich)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Mafdal and the Government
Date: 23 Jul 92 10:23:37 GMT
Organization: Math department, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, ISRAEL

In article <l6r9uuINN8a9@appserv.Eng.Sun.COM> janiceg@marvin.Eng.Sun.COM writes:
>
>Thanks to everyone who responded with more details on the Mafdal and
>the government (hi, Gideon!).  I'm afraid my original post was not
>worded well -- what I MEANT to ask was whether this was the first time
>the Mafdal had not been involved in the formation of a government
>coalition; I knew they'd quit in a huff from time to time.
>

Yes this is the first time.

Shalom   Gideon Ehrlich     ERETS YISRAEL
From: rice@enterprise.Berkeley.EDU (Daniel S. Rice)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Question about 'Codes in the Torah.'
Date: 31 Jul 1992 18:47:17 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: enterprise.berkeley.edu

In article <31JUL199209455990@utkvx1.utk.edu> egw@utkvx1.utk.edu
(Wolpert, Edward Greenwal) writes:
>	A while back, I asked if anyone could give me refferences, in English
>or Hebrew, that could help me understand what the 'Codes' are.  I got several
>requests _for_ the information, but no one supplied the information.  There
>seems to be a desire for this info, so if someone could please post it, I'm
>sure many will benifit.

Author:        Witztum, Doron.
Title:         ha-Memad ha-nosaf : 'al ha-ketivah ha-du-mamadit ba-Torah /
                 Doron Vitstum. Yerushalayim : D. Vitstum, 1989.
Description:   231 p. ; 23 cm.

Notes:         Chiefly tables.

Subjects:      Bible. O.T. -- Language, style.

Call numbers:  UCB   Main      BS535 .W5 1989

	My machine (enterprise.berkeley.edu) has some C programs you can
use to reproduce the tables in this book and to play with codes on your own.

						Dan
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: friedenb@egr.msu.edu ( Gedaliah Friedenberg )
Subject: Re: The Cost of Living Jewishly (was Re: O-C-R debate)
Originator: friedenb@kira.egr.msu.edu
Reply-To: friedenb@egr.msu.edu ( Gedaliah Friedenberg )
Organization: Michigan State University
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 92 22:10:42 GMT


Since this topic is being discussed, I though that I'd make mention of
my visit to the local bookstore today.

I went into the book store's clearing house (where the books go if
they didn't sell in the main store after 1 year).  I got Rabbi Chayim
HaLevy Donin's _To Be A Jew_ and _To Pray As A Jew_ as well as Natan
Sharansky's auto-biography _Fear No Evil_ (in hardcover) for $4.90
each!

If anyone wants a copy of _To Pray As A Jew_ (new soft-cover printing)
for $4.90 (plus $~2.50 for packaging and postage inside the US), the
bookstore had about 5 left.  Send me mail if you are interested.
First come-first serve.

1-800-JUDAISM lists it at $13.00 + postage.

[I purchased the last of _To Be A Jew_ and _Fear No Evil_ (sorry)].  

It is certainly not worth living ~70 miles from the nearest minyan,
but I am beginning to see some advantages. ;^)

Gedaliah Friedenberg
-=-Department of Mechanical Engineering
-=-Department of Metallurgy, Mechanics and Materials Science
-=-Michigan State University

Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: gertler@ptms_dev.sbi.com (User - Don Gertler)
Subject: Re: What is Jewish religion? (long...)
Reply-To: <gertler@ptms_dev.sbi.com (User - Don Gertler)>
Organization: Nysernet
Date: 24 Jul 92 01:30:42 GMT

warren@nysernet.ORG (Warren Burstein) writes:
	Does cannibalism work with patrilineal or matrilineal descent?  Are
	there liberal movements within cannibalism that consider eating human
	flesh optional or substitute tofu, but seasoned to taste like human
	flesh?  Or three-times-a-year cannibals that eat kosher deli the rest
	of the year?

I think this is called Cannibal Style.

-Don Gertler
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: stovall@ficus.cs.ucla.edu (Steven Stovall)
Subject: Re: NYT OpEd: Black Demagogues and Pseudo-Scholars
Organization: UCLA, Computer Science Department
Date: 30 Jul 92 16:28:21 GMT

bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman) writes:


>   Overall, the gates article was good.  But he wrote about Jesse
>Jackson as if he was nothing more than a force for reconciliation
>and friendship.  This characterization flies in the face of Jesse
>Jackson's divisive statements of the past.  Jesse Jackson refered
>to Jews as "hymies."  This is a racist display that I doubt would
>be disregarded if the slur had been directed at blacks.  It might
>be suggested that the response to Jackson's "hymie" remarks would
>not have been so casual, outside of the Jewish community, if some
>group other than Jews had been the target.  The fact the piece by
>Gates did not say one word about an episode that was offensive to
>every Jew in America is, in and of itself, quite enlightening.

(Sigh). Here we go again. The piece clearly indicates that, given
the current intellectual climate in the African-American community,
Jesse Jackson showed extraordinary courage and leadership in speaking
out against anti-Semitism. The man is not perfect, but one instance
of unwise conversation cannot be allowed to overshadow an entire
lifetime of service. Jews gave their lives in some cases for the cause
of Civil Rights, a fact that Jesse can hardly be unaware of. He stood
up and spoke at a time when someone needed to, but no one else did.
That was as an act of repentance that should be honored. If B'nai
Yisroel was perfect, the Shekhinah would never have gone into exile.
_______________________________________________________________________________

steven stovall
stovall@exeter.cs.ucla.edu
(310) 825-7307
From: weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Anti-Orthodoxy (was Re: O-C-R debate)
Date: 28 Jul 92 21:24:52 GMT
Reply-To: weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener)
Organization: The Wistar Institute of Anatomy and Biology
In-reply-to: dfs@doe.carleton.ca (David F. Skoll)

In article <dfs.712340682@ro>, dfs@doe (David F. Skoll) writes:
>From the context, which you've deleted, it was clear that I meant
>Conservative and Reform Jews in general.

OK.  It wasn't clear to me, but you know what you meant.

>					   If you like, take that as a
>rewording.  The fact that some C and R Jews say Orthodox is wrong is
>irrelevant - they're just intolerant.  The fact that under the
>accepted Orthodox view, one is *forced* to conclude that C and R are
>wrong is quite relevant to the discussion.

But by pure logic C&R conclude that O is wrong.  Official positions
spell out a basis of Judaism that is not O's, and that if you believed
this basis, meant that you could not agree with O.  (As opposed to not
observe O.)
-- 
-Matthew P Wiener (weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: warren@nysernet.org (Warren Burstein)
Subject: Re: A Byte Of Torah I,XXXIV Matos-Masei
Reply-To: warren@nysernet.org
Organization: Mail to News Gateway at Wang Labs
Date: 30 Jul 92 09:22:44 GMT

I notice from the Subject: that the Galut is finally catching up with
the Torah reading in time for the Churban.

-- 
/|/-\/-\       The entire universe		Jerusalem
 |__/__/_/     is a very *** theft.
 |warren@      But the Kibo
/ nysernet.org is not all that worried.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: afwendy@lims02.lerc.nasa.gov (WENDY WARTNICK)
Subject: Re: Another Holocaust
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: NASA Lewis Research Center
Date: 24 Jul 1992 14:39 EST  

In article <dfs.711663729@ro>, dfs@doe.carleton.ca (David F. Skoll) writes...
>In <1992Jul20.181428.2845@unixland.natick.ma.us>
>sharon@unixland.natick.ma.us (Sharon Machlis Gartenberg) writes:

> 
>If someone is in a desperate situation, and is begging for help, I
>would help that person and not ask his opinions on Jews or
>anti-Semitism first.  Of course, there are degrees - if I happened to
>see Hitler drowning, I'd more likely throw rocks at him than try to
>save him.  But in the normal events of life, I believe we have an
>obligation to help whomever we can, whether they are Jewish or not,
>although we have a right to give Jewish people priority.

Interesting.  This brings to mind an experience my fiance had one night 
while he was working at the hospital (he is a resident).  He was doing an 
emergency room rotation (I think) and they brought a guy in who was in need 
of some stitches--the guy was a neo-Nazi skin head (shaven head and all) 
with a huge swastika on his arm.  Two of the three doctors present were 
Jewish.  Sure, they helped him...but don't think they didn't feel sick to 
their stomaches when they did.  And I am sure they didn't go to any extra 
trouble once the job was done.  I don't think it takes anything as extreme 
as Hitler to make people think twice about whether they want to offer aid.

				wendy
From: ehrlich@bimacs.BITNET (Gideon Ehrlich)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Israeli Arab factor in elections
Date: 22 Jul 92 10:26:26 GMT
Organization: Math department, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, ISRAEL

In article <2298@israel.nysernet.org> warren@nysernet.org writes:

The last Warren's paragraph was:

>Note that I do not assume that Gideon in any way supports either of
>the two parties that each claim to be the only party that follows the
>teachings of the Rabbi who was murdered in New York.  Nor do I make
>any assumption as to what Gideon thinks about whether Arab citizens of
>Israel ought to be allowed to vote or not.

 Thanks Warren for the above comment.
People usually think that when one critisize the logic of someone else
he actually objects his conclusions, and when one point out the
in-consistency he do it because of other reasons.

>Oh, and I'd like to see parlamentary immunity drastically reduced.
>It was not a good thing that the late Rabbi was allowed to do things
>that regular citizens were forbidden from doing because he was a
>Member of Knesset.

I'd like to see parlamentary immunity totaly removed.
I'd like all immunities removed (including that of the president).
I'd like Rabbis to be trited as other persons.
I'd not like persons accusing Rabbis on a base not sufficient to
   accuse  other persons.

Note:
   There were a lot of cases when non-rabbis knesset members
escaped sentences  because tof heir immunity, even more cases when the
atorney general didn't even asked to remove that immunity.

Gideon   Ehrlich
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: warren@nysernet.org (Warren Burstein)
Subject: Re: Who are the Haredi?
Reply-To: warren@nysernet.org
Organization: Mail to News Gateway at Wang Labs
Date: 21 Jul 92 07:25:25 GMT

In <92202.130102F66204@BARILVM.BITNET> F66204@BARILVM.BITNET (Shaul Wallach) writes:
>In the case of "hared", it could be
>that the title "hared" as is didn't sound specific enough and the
>yod was added to distinguish the word from the more general sense
>of "one who trembles".

I have a feeling this is it.  Since "hared" is already a commonly used
word, it helps to have different words.  It may be that it was not all
that common at the time that the word was first used to described a
specific group within Judiasm.
-- 
/|/-\/-\       The entire world		Jerusalem
 |__/__/_/     is a very *** gazelle.
 |warren@      But the weeder
/ nysernet.org is paranoid.
From: cytron@helios.dfci.harvard.edu (Andrew Cytron)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: NYT OpEd: Black Demagogues and Pseudo-Scholars
Date: 30 Jul 92 08:38:52
Organization: Dana-Farber Cancer Institute
	<1992Jul30.005317.16149@colorado.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: helios.dfci.harvard.edu
In-reply-to: perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU's message of Thu, 30 Jul 1992 00:53:17 GMT


In article <1992Jul30.005317.16149@colorado.edu> perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (Eric S. Perlman) writes:
  > Dr. Gates - Bravo!  Not being a subscriber to
  > soc.culture.african.american, though, I must wonder why this wasn't also
  > cross posted there - the phenomenon concerns both Blacks and Jews, and
  > has no solution without cooperation from both Blacks and Jews.

Because not being a frequent news reader I am unfamiliar both with 
"cross posting" and soc.culture.african.american.  However, I will
attempt posting the article there.  Thank you for bringing this to
my attention.

					A. Cytron
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: yogi@cs.ubc.ca (Yossi Gil)
Subject: Re: Discovery
Organization: Computer Science, University of B.C., Vancouver, B.C., Canada
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 07:04:53 GMT

NMILLER@vax1.trincoll.edu writes:

>Yossi Gil:

>If the issue were one of testing probabilistic models, I would
>be silent.  More than that, interested in a skeptical sort
>of way.  But while there may be some serious people out there
>who are doing serious things in this area, I was referring to 
>the Discovery people who are in my opinion not only not serious
>but in fact duplicitous and deceitful.

Most believers don't even attempt a scientific proof to their belief.
I would like to attribute the discovery project to innocent belief.
Perhaps I am wrong.  

>The bottom line is evidence.  When the evidence is made available 
>to others, or when others are at least told precisely how they
>can replicate the procedure, I have no complaints.  When instead 

Fine, let them reveal their cards, demonstrate their program and prove
them wrong. Personally, I am sure that any attempt to peridct the future
using the discovery project will fail. I am sure most readers will agree.

>every Borax trick is used to finesse the issue (I've already written
>about this and don't want to repeat myself) then I feel it my duty
>to warn others.  So I warn: these birds are the same ones who used 
>to peddle snake oil, underwater lots in Florida, the Brooklyn Bridge.

At any rate, someone should answer the original poster.

>Norman Miller

Yossi Gil
--
Joseph (Yossi) Gil                 {alberta,uw-beaver,uunet}!ubc-cs!yogi
Dept. of Computer Science          yogi@cs.ubc.ca (cs.ubc.ca=137.82.8.5)
6356 Agricultural Road., Univ. of B.C.,             Tel: +1-604-822-8175
Vancouver, British Columbia, V6T 1Z2, Canada.       Fax: +1-604-822-5485
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: VSLARRY@WEIZMANN.WEIZMANN.AC.IL (Larry Israel)
Subject: Re: Death Penalty & Jewish Law
Reply-To: <VSLARRY@WEIZMANN.WEIZMANN.AC.IL>
Organization: Nysernet
Date: 27 Jul 92 14:01:00 GMT

I would be very interested in why Michael Lax opposes the death penalty
based on Jewish values.

Is it because it may be mistakenly applied? Is it because he feels that
the punishment is too severe? Is it because he feels the criminal may yet
be rehabilitated? Is it because he feels that it does damage to the people
carrying it out, even though the criminal may be deserving of it?

Or could it be that it is not given uniformly? But that shouldn't be a
problem. One can hardly see that because half the people deserving of
punishment escape it, the other half also should.

Please notice that I have answered a question not with a question, but with
many questions. Lifnim mishuras hadin.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish