HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: cjh@tinton.ccur.com (Christopher J. Henrich)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Postmodern SF
Summary: Keep your bullshit detector turned on AT ALL TIMES
Keywords: postmodernism, The All-Seeing Eye, MirrorS
Date: 2 Sep 92 16:19:49 GMT
Organization: Concurrent Computer Corp., Tinton Falls, NJ

In article <Btpnn4.428@helios.physics.utoronto.ca> karls@aurora.physics.utoronto.ca (Karl Schroeder) writes:
>
[much deleted...]
>times:  there are many).  Under the above definitions, there's probably
>The preeminent postmodern SF novel
>right now though, may be The Difference Engine (Gibson and Sterling).
>The rest of this may be a spoiler for some, so be warned!
 
>TDE initially appears to be an alternate history.  It also initially
>appears to be a spy thriller.  The story keeps mutating, however, and
>expectations are set up and then not followed through on.  

This *may* be a subtle strategy, but it may *also* be the mark of
slipshod work.  It is a classic con game to promote inferior stuff as
illustrating some prestigious but poorly understood critical theory
or new movement. Examples from about 20 years ago, in my opinion,
include _Beyond Apollo_ by Barry Malzberg and _Report From
Probability A_ by Brian Aldiss.  Two extremely tedious novels, both
advertised as showpieces of avant garde technique.

The implicit dialoguw with a dissatisfied reader might go like this:
   "This book is incoherent."
   "Oh, don't you understand - it's a terribly witty comment on the
incoherence of the modern world."

[For "modern world" you can insert "American culture" or "late
capitalism" or any other large visible target.]

As P. T. Barnum said, the world is full of people who are prepared to
be impressed by this strategy. And there's another one born every
minute.  

For a mythic account of the same strategy in another medium, see
_The Emperor's New Clothes_ by Hans Christian Andersen.

Regards,
Chris Henrich
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: djdaneh@pbhyc.PacBell.COM (Dan'l DanehyOakes)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Terminology
Date: 2 Sep 92 20:31:30 GMT
Reply-To: djdaneh@PacBell.COM (Dan'l DanehyOakes)
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA

In article <BtwI74.2L4@brunel.ac.uk> Robert.Turner@brunel.ac.uk (Robert Turner) writes:

>Right then, a question for all you 'cyberpunk' (and similar) fans out
>there. We have:
>
>Hardware	Machinery
>Software	Programs
>Wetware		Biological Software
>
>Are there any other ?ware items around the fictional universe that I
>have missed?  Is there a term for optical machines? Am I going mad?

Note first:  These are not from the "fictional" universe; they're all real.

And, yes, you're going mad.  You have a bug in your wetware.

Other wares:

Firmware -- ROM/EPROM/etc.
Vaporware -- this is the only one that's actually fictional.  It's a
	product a company announces without having actually built one.
Stoneware, Silverware, Dinnerware, Flatware.
Underware.

And, of course, Wareisit?


		The Pavlov dog and the Schroedinger cat
		Side by side in my forebrain sat
		With Shakespeare's monkeys crowding in behind. . .
		. . . it's all in your mind.
			-- Visual Purple

Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, Net.Roach
My opinions do NOT represent Pacific Bell,
Professional Development, or anyone else.
But I'm willing to share.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: sef@kithrup.COM (Sean Eric Fagan)
Subject: Re: Continuing Time
Organization: Kithrup Enterprises, Ltd.
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 20:19:29 GMT

In article <leggett.714932169@a-l3um6> leggett@a-l3um6.cern.ch (Charles Leggett ) writes:
>Remember that the whole foundation of
>the novels are "Continuing Time", where several of the characters are time
>travellers. As one poster recently mentioned, we don't know what all of Trent's
>talents are. Time travel could be one of them (I seem to recall that the 
>'Novembers' have the gene for time travel, and they are the descendents of
>Danielle (?)). 

Denise has the Gifts of the House of November -- as is stated in _Emerald
Eyes_, at the end.

The god Storyteller (arrogant SOB, ain't it?  Of course, he has a *right* to
be so...) is descended from Carl Castanaveras, and either Denise or David,
but that is all we know.

What's-his-name, the second time traveller from EE, says in _The Long Run_
that his eyes (all black, no whites) won't appear in a human for several
hundred years.  *That* person is probably the ancestor of Storyteller, and
all the other time travellers -- and is undoubtedly a descendent of Carl.

Trent is almost certainly "human."  He's just 'perfect.'  Also intelligent,
fast reflexes, and had a great deal of training and incentive.  He is, in
other words, a survivor.

-- 
Sean Eric Fagan  | "You can't get lost in one room, no matter how
sef@kithrup.COM  |  little effort you make to learn your way around."
-----------------+    -- William E Davidsen (william@crd.GE.COM)
Any opinions expressed are my own, and generally unpopular with others.
From: jcc@swe.ncsl.nist.gov (John C. Cherniavsky)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Looking for info on new Jack Vance book.
Date: 25 Aug 92 17:48:19 GMT
Organization: Computer Systems Lab

Underwood-Miller has just published the 3rd volume of the Caldwell
Trilogy - It's called THROY I believe. I have it in the signed limited
edition available from the publisher and other sources - I got mine from
Zeising (75$). It continues the adventures of Glawen and Wayness, 
solving several
mysteries along the way. Recommended.

john
From: sm@g2.ph.man.ac.uk (Steve Mowbray)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: COVINGTON CROSS
Date: 30 Aug 92 16:43:22 GMT
Reply-To: sm@g2.ph.man.ac.uk
Organization: University of Manchester, UK

Why is this crap in rec.arts.sf.written?

---
Steve Mowbray, Physics Department, University of Manchester, U.K.
-  Janet: sm@uk.ac.man.ph.g2  /  Internet: sm@g2.ph.man.ac.uk  -
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: dani@netcom.com (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Re: Gormenghast
Date: Wed, 02 Sep 92 20:46:11 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 
Distribution: na
Keywords: Mervyn Peake, Fantasy

stef@Apple.COM (Stef Jones):
>However, I was not able to finish the third book. Did anyone finish it, and
>did it finish well? I heard (OK, so I did meet one other person who read
>it) that the third book sort of trailed off into proto-schizoid musings...

The first two Gormenghast books were wonderful, but I also found the
third book a disappointment.  Since it tells of Titus in the outside
world, it is cut off from so much of what makes the rest of the trilogy
special.  It's a more thoughtful book, but not nearly as enjoyable.

-----
Dani Zweig
dani@netcom.com

   'T is with our judgements as our watches, none
   Go alike, yet each believes his own
		--Alexander Pope
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Brin's "Uplift" series (Was: Up in Flames anthology
From: campo@sunthpi3.difi.unipi.it (Massimo Campostrini)
Date: 2 Sep 92 11:52:39 +0100
Reply-To: campo@sunthpi3.difi.unipi.it
Distribution: world
Organization: Istituto Nazionale di Fisica Nucleare, Pisa, Italy

In article <92245.152013MBS110@psuvm.psu.edu>, Norman St. John Polevaulter <MBS110@psuvm.psu.edu> writes:
|> Now, several months ago on this group (concurrent with Doug Merritt's
|> great cataclysmic ending for Brin's Startide Rising/Sundiver/etc. series)
                                ===========================================
   Could somebody please post the full title (and publication date) 
list of Brin's "Uplift" series? 

	Thanks in advance,
-- 
        Massimo Campostrini,
Istituto Nazionale di Fisica Nucleare, Sezione di Pisa,
Piazza Torricelli 2, I-56126 Pisa, Italy  ||  Phone: (+39)(50)42093
Internet: campo@sunthpi3.difi.unipi.it    ||  Fax:   (+39)(50)48277
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: ganderso@unlinfo.unl.edu (gary anderson)
Subject: Re: Gormenghast
Keywords: Mervyn Peake, Fantasy 
Organization: University of Nebraska - Lincoln
Distribution: na
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 16:42:38 GMT

karls@aurora.physics.utoronto.ca (Karl Schroeder) writes:

>I thought The Lord of the Rings was the greatest fantasy ever written
>until I discovered the Gormenghast Trilogy by Mervyn Peake.  Anyone
>else have this experience (maybe it's just me).  Both books are
>encyclopedic fiction in which you can immerse yourself completely,
>and there are plenty of scenes in both that I will never forget;

Wow, just yesterday something reminded me of this remarkable -- but
I had thought obscure -- trilogy;  and here today someone brings it
up!  I don't know that I would rank LOTR below Gormenghast, but I don't
think I'd rank it higher, either.  How 'bout if we don't rank them at all?

It's been years since I read Gormenghast but, as you say, there are
unforgettable scenes/characters/moments aplenty.  Steerpike -- more
malevolent and certainly more spooky than Iago;  the dusty room with
all the wood carvings;  those eerie twin sisters;  and the enormous
castle itself, which I remember looking down on from above, seeing a
vast sea of roofs, turrets, and gables (was it up here that Steerpike
hung out?).

Thanks for the memories!

Gary Anderson
ganderso@unlinfo.unl.edu


Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: pkeller@sam.math.ethz.ch (Philipp Keller)
Subject: Re: Books on Magic vs Science
Organization: Seminar for Applied Mathematics, ETH Zurich.
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 07:07:00 GMT

In article <1992Aug26.152757.20446@awdprime.austin.ibm.com>, jlpicard@austin.ibm.com (Craig Becker) writes:
|> 
|> In article <1992Aug25.131931.1@vaxa.strath.ac.uk>, ciar04@vaxa writes:
|> > Are there any books that dwell on the battle between magic and science? 
|> > I seem to recall seeing some (or at least one) books on this, but I
|> > don't seem to be able to find any at the local book stores.

I think that Larry Niven wrote a book about exactly this topic but I
don't remember exactly what its title was. Probably something like
'The Flying Sorcerer'. He also wrote some short-stories which were
published under the title 'The flying Horse' but it wasnt exactly 
about the battle between magic and science but about the capture
of magical creatures by a future civilization.
Perhaps one can also consider David Brin's 'The Practice Effect'
and Timothy Zahn's 'Triplet' although both book deal with places
where entropy runs bachward  causing 'magical' effects.
And last but not least the short story 'Captain America meets Thor'
by David Brin which concerns  the triumph of rationality over
superstition and magic, one of the very best stories of all time
in my opinion. You can find it in Gregory Benford's 'Hitler Victorious'.

Philipp Keller
 
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: beede@sctc.com (Mike Beede)
Subject: Re: Vinge's singularity
Keywords: Malthus
Organization: SCTC
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1992 15:30:02 GMT

mwasson@uhunix.uhcc.Hawaii.Edu (Michael Wasson) writes:


>Videophones were first introduced--when, c1960? Nobody wants 'em.

Well, to be a little more precise -- nobody wants to _pay_ for 'em.  I
think if a videophone like the one in ``the movie pitchurs'' came
along (i.e., reasonable definition and frame rate), and cost maybe two
or three times what a traditional phone does, people would break down
the doors for them.  The technology just isn't there to do it for
little enough, yet.  Does this address the Singularity thread?  Nah --
I just always wanted a videophone.

>>   I find it more interesting to consider that the singularity is a
>>clear symptom of our civilization's blind spot:  we can't imagine what
>>culture is going to follow ours, any more than any previous culture
>>imagined ours.  The idea that we will dissolve in some kind of technologicaL
>>Rapture probably reflects our current anxieties better than it reflects
>>(or predicts) the future.

Note that this is the previous poster's stuff....

That _is_ interesting, but if we grant the premise
(artificially-boosted intellects), it's not an unreasonable
conclusion.  Why, look at how much smarter we all are since we started
reading USENET!

>>   On the other hand, it's sure made for some good stories!  :-)

Agreed.  The Vinge stuff is quite good, IMO.

	Mike


-- 
Mike Beede         Secure Computing
beede@sctc.com     1210 W. County Rd E, Suite 100           
------------------ Arden Hills, MN  55112
                    (612) 482-7420
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: francis@dogwood.atl.ga.us (John Stracke)
Subject: Re: Continuing Time
Organization: National Science Center Foundation
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 20:41:50 GMT
	<1992Aug27.021755.7022@kithrup.COM> <BtMMuG.83C@news.cso.uiuc.edu>
	<1992Aug27.171623.13537@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU>

In article <1992Aug27.171623.13537@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU> curtis@berkeley.edu (Curtis Yarvin) writes:

>In article <BtMMuG.83C@news.cso.uiuc.edu> ndj20710@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Nathan D. Johnson) writes:
>>
>>whole in wall. Trent projects hologram over hole.
>
>Holograms not opaque.

They can't be made up on the fly by a computer and projected, either.
Willing suspension of disbelief.

--
/===========================================================================\
|John (Francis) Stracke         |My opinions are my own.                    |
|Natl. Science Center Foundation|===========================================|
|Augusta, GA                    | E pui muove!                              |
|francis@galois.nscf.org        |  -- Galileo                               |
\===========================================================================/
(Formerly francis@dogwood.atl.ga.us,francis@zaphod.uchicago.edu)
-- 
/===========================================================================\
|John (Francis) Stracke         |My opinions are my own.                    |
|Natl. Science Center Foundation|===========================================|
|Augusta, GA                    | E pui muove!                              |
From: trumpins@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu (Barbara Trumpinski)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Callahan's Bar novels
Date: 30 Aug 92 03:39:08 GMT
Article-I.D.: news.Bts259.FKB
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana

In <u906451.714968519@bruny> u906451@bruny.cc.utas.edu.au (Agamemnon) writes:


>Does anyone know if Spider Robinson wrote any other Callahan's
>novels other than _Callahan's Crazy Crosstime Bar_?

>Please reply via e-mail
>Thank you in advance,
>Damien


>--
>Damien Saunders     (Gunnar Njalsson)
>E-mail: u906451@bruny.cc.utas.edu.au
>'He's got droid rot, He's waving a bannana about and calling it a
>female aardvark' - Rimmer. From 'Camille': Red Dwarf series 4

_callahan's crosstime saloon_ is the proper title.

followed by _time travellers strictly cash_
_callahan's secret_ 
_callahan's lady_
_lady slings the booze_ (not out yet...but an abridged version called
_kill the editor_ was published in a special edition by pulphouse magazine.


barb

--
***************************************************************************
conan the librarian a.k.a. kitten           /\ /\  barbara ann 
"my life's a soap opera, isn't yours?"      {=.=}
                                              ~   trumpins@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu 
"perhaps _any_ universe becomes real in proportion 
to the number of people who believe in it and spend time there." s. robinson
From: rsm58307@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Ron)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Books on Magic vs Science
Date: 1 Sep 92 18:43:55 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana

advax@reg.triumf.ca (A.Daviel) writes:

>In article <1992Aug26.011006.14454@organpipe.uug.arizona.edu>, dave@cs.arizona.edu (Dave Schaumann) writes...
>>In article <1992Aug25.131931.1@vaxa.strath.ac.uk>, ciar04@vaxa writes:
>>>Are there any books that dwell on the battle between magic and science? 
>>>I seem to recall seeing some (or at least one) books on this, but I
>>>don't seem to be able to find any at the local book stores.
>> 
>>Roger Zelazny had a book about 10 years ago called _Changeling_(?)
>>that is pretty much exactly that.  The sequal is called _Madwand_.
>>As I recall, it left room for more sequels, but I don't know if he
>>wrote any more.

>Also the Changeling Earth series by Zelazny; Orcus (the demon) vs. Ardneh (a 
>computer). Lawrence Watt-Evans had a couple (the Cyborg and the Sorcerers, 
>and the Wizard and the War Machine), which feature wizardy vs. a computer 
>(the human part of the cyborg just wants to be left alone). An earlier 
>Zelazny  (Shadowjack??) features a tidally locked planet where wizardry 

	It's called JACK OF SHADOWS.

>works on the dark side and science on the light side, or rather that is the 
>basic paradigm by which the society operates. 

>Andrew
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: ecl@cbnewsj.cb.att.com (Evelyn C. Leeper)
Subject: Re: A Really Good SF Short Story
Organization: AT&T
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 18:20:50 GMT

In article <BtLqnH.Jyy@news.cso.uiuc.edu> levine@symcom.math.uiuc.edu (Lenore Levine) writes:
> dani@netcom.com (Dani Zweig) writes:
> 
> >levine@symcom.math.uiuc.edu (Lenore Levine):
> >>Pamela Sargent wrote a story, "Danny Goes to Mars," in the latest issue
> 
> >If my inference from the hints you're dropping is correct, you're
> >asking people to award Hugos for Dan Quayle jokes.  (I haven't read
> >the story, so it seems pointless to put up spoiler warnings.)  Will
> >this still be worth reading ten years from now?
> 
> Yes, I think so.

If there is a God, ten years from now people won't even remember who
Dan Quayle is.

If you want a *really* funny story, try Connie Willis's "Even the Queen"
from IASFM a few months ago.,

Evelyn C. Leeper  |  +1 908 957 2070  |  att!mtgzy!ecl or  ecl@mtgzy.att.com
--
"IQ describes how big your gas tank is, but it doesn't tell if you're
running on empty." -- Harvey Newstrom (hnewstro@x102c.ess.harris.com)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,rec.arts.sf.science
From: rkunenbo@cs.ruu.nl (Ronald Kunenborg)
Subject: Re: Are the Moties us?
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 09:37:22 GMT
Organization: Utrecht University, Dept. of Computer Science

In <y0sy2d#@rpi.edu> kasprj@isaac.its.rpi.edu (Jim Kasprzak) writes:

> I wave the white flag of surrender to Michael Friedman in my part of 
>this endless debate. We're not going to convince each other of anything;
>time will tell which one of us was right.

I've got the same feeling - I'm definetely not convinced by Michaels 
arguments, but neither is he convinced by mine. (And I was so eloquent
-sniff- :) :)).

> Besides, the Ringworld thread is much more fun.
Well...
>------------------------------------------------------------------
>     __  Live from Capitaland, heart of the Empire State...
> ___/  | Jim Kasprzak, computer operator @ RPI, Troy, NY, USA
>/____ *| Pro-Environment. Pro-Education. Pro-Family. Pro-Choice. 
>     \_| Pro-Change. Pro-America. Pro-Clinton.
>      ====  e-mail: kasprj@rpi.edu or kasprzak@mts.rpi.edu 

With regards,
-- 
Ronald Kunenborg, Ina Boudier-Bakkerlaan 89-3, 3582 XD Utrecht, The Netherlands

        "I believe we are on an irreversible trend toward more freedom
	      and democracy, but that could change." - Dan Quayle
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: stucki@spinaltap.cis.ohio-state.edu (David J Stucki)
Subject: Re: Donaldson's Gap Cycle
Originator: stucki@spinaltap.cis.ohio-state.edu
Organization: Ohio State University Computer and Information Science
	<8g5aqB1w165w@ersys.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 21:08:53 GMT

In article <8g5aqB1w165w@ersys.edmonton.ab.ca> mforget@ersys.edmonton.ab.ca (Michel Forget) writes:

   sdt8s@poe.acc.Virginia.EDU (Steve Tilson) writes:

   - I've tremendously enjoyed the first two books of this quintet
   - and am eagerly awaiting the next one. Am I alone in this?
   - 
   - Steve
   - --
   - You are a true believer. Blessings of the state, blessings of the masses.
   - Thou art a subject of the divine, created in the image of man by the masses,
   - for the masses. Let us be thankful we have an occupation to fill. Work 
   - hard...increase production...prevent accidents...and be happy. (THX-1138)


   Does anyone know when the third book will be out in Canada as a hard 
   cover?  I noticed that the second one is out in paperback, and since this 
   is such a good story, I wouldn't mind purchasing the hard cover.

The release date in the USA is October 22.

dave...

David J Stucki               /\     ____          /\ Department of Computer and
537 Harley Dr. #6           /__\   \ /\ /  /\    /__\       Information Science
Columbus, OH  43202        /\  /\   \--/  /__\  /_\/_\    2036 Neil Avenue Mall
stucki@cis.ohio-state.edu /__\/__\   \/        /\    /\      Columbus, OH 43210
                                              /__\  /__\    __
There is no place in science for ideas,      /_\/_\/_\/_\   \/  /\     /\
there is no place in epistemology for knowledge,                --    /__\
and there is no place in semantics for meanings.  -- W.V. Quine      /_\/_\
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: gamiddle@math.uwaterloo.ca (Guy Middleton)
Subject: Re: Upcoming Books till June (small SPOILER for Kay readers)
Organization: MFCF
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 19:47:10 GMT

In article <1992Sep1.001339.27822@gallant.apple.com> chuq@gallant.apple.com (Chuq Von Rospach) writes:
> >Kay, Guy Gavriel, A Song for Arbonne, Random House/Crown HC, Jan
> >	Kay's new book takes place in a Europe in which Christianity
> >	never took hold, and the classical past was lost.
> 
> Double yum.

I read this last week, and it is good, although not as good as Tigana.
However, it isn't really fantasy -- it's an alternate-world historical novel.
There is no (or almost none) magic.  Certainly no big-time wizards, as in his
previous work.

 -Guy Middleton, University of Waterloo		gamiddleton@math.waterloo.edu
		(+1 519 885 1211 x3472)		gamiddleton@math.uwaterloo.ca
From: jc@crosfield.co.uk (jerry cullingford)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: What are the best fantasy books involving dragons?
Date: 28 Aug 92 13:06:00 GMT
Organization: Crosfield Electronics, Hemel Hempstead, United Kingdom.

In article <1992Aug25.153956.21188@lmpsbbs.comm.mot.com> bhv@areaplg2.corp.mot.com (Bronis Vidugiris) writes:
>I don't think about 'The Hobbit' for some reason when dragons are mentioned
>(I dunno why not, its very logical), but I'd have to agree that it's one of
>(if not the) best dragon tales around.

"one of the best"? Surely not! It's a good story, but not a particularly
good _dragon_ tale. Smaug basically only gets a medium size bit part...
mostly as a background reason for the main characters' adventures.

Compare that with some of the other dragon tales around.. a lot of them have
the dragon(s) as major parts of the plot, and include the dragons behaviour
and ways of dealing with as important parts of the story, not just as an
intercheangeable nasty creature (which is basically all Smaug is used as -
the basic plot comes over as "nasty creature stole our treasure so we'll
try to sneak in and get it back while it's not looking" - and would have
worked nearly as well if Smaug had been a Giant Killer Termite.. apart from
around one page of his conversation with Bilbo).

OTOH, something like 'DragonsBane' by Barbara Hambly has some nice speculation
on 'how exactly _could_ you kill a dragon' and some bits on 'what it's like
to be a dragon'.

The dragons in Diane Duanes 'Door into shadow/Door into Sunset' are pretty
neat too - some nice ideas kicking around there.

I'd argue that the reason people tend not to think of 'The Hobbit' as a
dragon tale is basically that it really isn't one :-). It's a hobbit and
dwarves story instead... A good children's story, (which was the original
intention) but one that wouldn't be particularly outstanding as a story
for adults if it weren't for the tie-in with LOTR and the middle-earth
setting.

-- 
+------------------------------------------------------------------+     |
| Jerry Cullingford  #include <std.disclaimer> +44 442 230000 x3868|   ,-|--
| jc@crosfield.co.uk (jc@cel.uucp) or jc@selune.demon.co.uk        |   \_|__
+-----(Work)---------------------------------(home)----------------+ \___/