From: CX6L@MUSICA.MCGILL.CA (CX6L)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: <none>
Date: 6 Oct 92 21:50:57 GMT
Organization: McGill University

In article <1992Oct6.153114.20823@news.columbia.edu> jhk6@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (John H Kim) writes:

> Alright, this topic has gotten rather confused at this point. I
>think it started off topic when I stated in a reply that GURPS dying rules
>were broken.
> This has resulted in a variety of responses, ranging from some
>reasonable fixes, to claims that the results were accurate, to the rather
>suprising (to me) statement from CX6L that GURPS was not meant to handle
>'normal people'.

Well, I (CX6L) really stated that GURPS can handle *heroic*, *as
opposed to cinematic* combat well, but GM calls are required to
handle "ordinary folks".

     My definitions (in GURPS-speak, be warned):

-"ordinary folks": 25 to 50 point characters, or 100 point characters
                   with severe GM caps on what abilities may be taken
                   and at what levels. Combat: dangerous (GURPS does
                   this well, IMHO) and infrequent.

-"heroic": 100 to 150 point characters who have free rein to buy
           abilities appropriate to the campaign. They are still
           limited by realism, but are allowed to do things that
           while in principle are possible, may be neither likely
           or sane. Combat: few PCs cut down many NPCs. Combat
           *can* be risked frequently, although that is not wise.
           I have always viewed this as the "default" in GURPS.

-"cinematic": 150 or more point characters, capable of doing mostly
              or wholly impossible feats. Not realistic at all.
              Combat: rarely deadly to PCs, and often carried out
              in a manner that defies reality altogether.

>- Shots aimed at the head or torso will never hit the brain or vitals.
>   Mikko suggested a simple fix that torso hits made by 4 hit the vitals
>   unless stated otherwise, which sounds fine to me.

This is a real problem. Shots missing the head or vitals by 1 hit the
body (torso), but never vice-versa on a good hit. This requires a fix.

>- There are other 'vital areas' which high skill should help with, but does
>   not: the throat, groin (for males), knee, etc. Many of these are handled
>   individually in GURPS Martial Arts - but I think that is getting
>   excessively complicated.

Well, I do think detailed hit location rules aren't all that bad an
idea. Just mark hit locations on the character sheets instead of
that silly ranged weapons table we've all memorized by now.

> I understand that SJ probably does not like the abstractness of
>high skill or good hits generally increasing damage (as in Ars Magica or
>Storyteller), but this mixed solution is rather inconsistent.

To be truthful, I don't think SJ even considered these possibilities.
The Karate 1/5 skill rule, and similar rules for Weapon Masters and
Throwing Art, as well as the +2 damage option on an All-Out Attack
(which was *not* in the original rules, BTW), are all half-baked
efforts to introduce such options retroactively.

> That said, there are a few points I would like to reply to:

>CX6L@MUSICA.MCGILL.CA (CX6L) writes:
>>But there are people who fight despite wounds, face down heavy fire and
>>cooly aim between a foe's eyes when the foe is shooting.
>....
>>If the PCs want to be like that, there are rules for High Pain Threshold,
>>Combat Reflexes and Strong Will to let them.

> Combat Reflexes and Strong Will don't have much of an effect
>in a firefight if suprise is not an issue. All characters in GURPS can do
>the actions you describe above - remember that pain penalties dissipate
>after only a second in any case.  You must rely on role-playing for
>players not to act as these 'superhuman' types.

I think what I meant was that Combat Reflexes and Strong Will
would probably help PCs overcome the fear of death and the
urge to flinch in the face of fire. Now there are apparently
rules for this in High Tech, 2nd ed., but I live in Canada,
so I won't see this for weeks. I assume they are similar
to the Fright Check rules. There, both advantages help. Also,
Strong Will adds to HT rolls when you're struggling to stay
conscious at below 0 HT (a rule that's well-hidden on the
first page of the Injuries... chapter). As well, High Pain
Threshold allows one to ignore Shock on the turn following
injury, but also renders you immune to physical stunning
due to injury. All of these effects produce the "tough guy
syndrome" I was mumbling about in that post. I hope that
is clearer!

>bkoike@sdcc13.ucsd.edu (Bryce Koike) writes:
>>I still believe that anyone with a 15 stat can be considered "heroic."

Yeh. The GURPS stat table with those cute little descriptions
(Nobel prize winner, Olympic fencer, etc..) are a crock. Wrong.
I'd believe an Olympic fencer may have Fencing Sport at 20, but
not DX! In my experience, 9 is notably poor, 10 average, 11
notably better, 12 exceptional, 13 the highest you'll meet
at a cocktail party, 14 the highest you might know in your
life and 15 heroic like in the movies. Higher than 15 are
the historically noted Rasputins (HT 16), Einsteins (IQ 18)
etcetera.

> That's interesting - because it runs contrary to GURPS philosophy.
>GURPS has repeatedly espoused that it is supposed to be realistic if
>played normally - but includes optional rules for 'heroic' play.

No, I think GURPS is intended for *heroic* play, with optional
rules for *cinematic* play. It states as much in the basic set:
a 100 point character is hero material, ordinary folks are at
25-50 points. Most of us play at the 100 point level, QED, we
play at the heroic level. Multiple actions, flesh wounds,
Chambara, etc.. are *cinematic* rules, and are optional. This
was a lot clearer back in the days of 1st edition GURPS, where
the 100 point level was designated "heroic". "Heroic" is
physically realistic, but not psychologically realistic.
People do insane things. But heroes are crazy, so I don't
see a problem. Play at the 25 point level, and that's "normal
folks": no one will be "heroic" because it would be fatal!
There was a trend a while back to build oneself in the GURPS
system: most folks end up being 0 to 50 points, if they are
honest about disads. A few fatuous folk claimed to be 200
points in GURPS terms, but they left out the -10 for their
Overconfidence, the -10 point Odious Personal Habit: Braggart,
and the -20 points for an IQ of 7 ;-)

> Bryce also gave an overly long description of how one can quickly
>kill a 15 HT character with four shots to the vitals. This does not strike
>me as terribly convincing of the realism of the system, since *one* of
>those shots would kill an average man. Those four shots do equivalent
>damage to fifteen sword strokes by the average (10 ST) man, or twenty two
>knife stabs to the vitals.

Unless the average man has a mighty fine sword and an unresisting
target, he isn't going to produce much effect with it. OK, 15
strokes is a bit much, but you see the point. Most of us who have
played with swords have some skill with them, and many "sworders"
are in very good shape, ie, stronger than average. So there is
a bias to see swords as more lethal than is warrented. Ditto for
knives. The reason most stabbing victims are stabbed multiply
is because they don't fall unconscious and stop moving unless
they are stabbed a lot. The average guy just plugging away isn't
going to kill with one shot without luck. On the other hand, a
commando who kidney-thrusts/cuts the throat will kill quickly.
Skill and conditioning count for everything. I have no problem
with Joe the Weasel having tropuble killing heroic Joe One in
a Thousand who has HT 15 and sells cereal because of it ;->

>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>John Kim                    | Alice: "But if I wasn't real, I shouldn't be
>jhk6@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu | able to cry."  Tweedledum: "I hope you don't
>Columbia University         | imagine those are *real* tears."

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