From: masuda@fcs280b.ncifcrf.gov (Michiaki Masuda)
Subject: Re: Is Japan crowded?
Organization: Frederick Cancer Research and Development Center
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 02:15:11 GMT

In article <1992Dec14.165703.810@island.COM> fester@island.COM (Mike Fester) writes:
>In article <Bz2zAs.3qs@ncifcrf.gov> masuda@fcs280b.ncifcrf.gov (Michiaki Masuda) writes:
>>In article <1992Dec9.162152.25329@acuson.com> miklg@acuson.com (Michael Goldman ) writes:

>>>       Further, rural areas of Japan are actually losing
>>>	population, which is to be expected, but clearly demonstrates that
>>>	habitability is not the sole reason for unequal population
>>>	distribution.

>>     This clearly states that more and more Japanese are living in a
>>crowded environment.

>However, Japan is not unique in this. This is a phenomenon common to the 
>industrialized world. The US has been losing rural population for some time.

   Although you are right in saying that the tendency of unequal population
distribution is rather a common phenomenon in the industrialized (and in
some developing) countries, comparison between the US and Japan might not
lead to a valid conclusion (as Goldman-san mentioned in his original post.)
It should be also noted that the pattern and degree of unequal distribution
in Japan may not be comparable to those in other industrialized countries.

>>     Third, N.J. has fourty-nine other states within the same country
>>while Japan has only Japan in itself. This difference should have at 
>>least some psychological effect.

>??? Above, you claim that since Japan is losing rural population, it is, in
>effect, more crowded. Now you claim that since the US has other, less crowded
>areas, this has a "psychological effect" on Americans. Why does this not have
>a "psychological effect" on Japanese?

       The reason why I mentioned it was that since Goldman-san was          
trying to compare people in N.J. (not US), who are living in a crowded 
situation seemingly comparable to that of Japan but are not paranoid, with 
Japanese. I agree that there are less crowded areas in Japan. However, in 
this comparison, these areas would be comparable to the "less crowded areas
in N.J." The point that I wanted to make was that there are no other areas
for Japanese to look at beyond Japan itself while people in N.J.
have them. Thus, I assumed that this difference has some psychological
effect that makes Japanese more paranoid than people in N.J. 

>>>>Another neglected factor is the height of residential structures.

>>>	I was in Tokyo a few days ago, and I saw plenty of high rise
>>>	condos and office buildings.

>>    Turner-san's comment was on the residential structures. Therefore,
>>the comparison of office buildings is out of context.

>Condos ARE residential structures.

   Yes, they are, and I don't think I mentioned that his mentioning condos
was out of context. I don't know why you brought this up.

>>>>>	Country		Pop. Density/(Square Mile)
>>>>>	(State)
>>>>>	-------		-----------
>>>>>	Bangladesh	1,740		/* very flat, very rich farmland */
>>>>>	Taiwan		1,347		/* middle-class urban refugee camp */
>>>>>	Netherlands	1,095		/* BOTH of the above */
>>>>	...
>>>>>	Japan		  822  <----	/* but what about just Honshu? */

>>>	Why not look at just New Jersey, or "just" the Boston-NY-DC strip
>>>	along the US east coast.

>>    Once again, how valid is the comparison between the US and Japan?

>I believe this is comparing Japan to the rest of the world.

    As I understand it from his words, he suggested that we look at
just N.J. or "just" the Boston-NY-DC strip. I don't think that these
areas are "the rest of the world."

>>>       Why not look at only the non-farmed
>>>	areas of Holland.

>>    I've never been to Holland. I don't know many Dutch people, either. Maybe,
>>they are more paranoid than Japanese?

>But how can this be? If the REASON the Japanese are so friendly is BECAUSE 
>of its crowdedness, then the Dutch should be even friendlier, should they not?

    Since I have never tried to assert that Japanese are friendly BECAUSE
of Japan's crowdedness, I am not the best person to answer this question.

    I'd rather say that at least, people in Tokyo Metro Area are not usually
so friendly to a stranger.

>Brooklyn is more crowded than Tokyo. If the original "Japan is such a
>polite country BECAUSE it is so crowded" stuff is to have any merit, then
>Brooklyn must have the friendliest people in the world (or at least, lots of
>very friendly, polite people).

  Where was this original? I'm afraid that I missed it. Did anyone say
that here other than Goldman-san's quoting?

>>>       I'm not claiming Japan isn't crowded,

>>    Then, you might want to correct your comment that "Japan is a crowded
>>tiny island" is a myth in your original posting.

>Uh, the 'myth' was that BECAUSE Japan is crowded, its people are so polite.
>There is nothing to correct.

    Let's see if your interpretation is correct or not later (please, see
below. Otanoshimi ni.).

>>>       and the rest of us needn't
>>>	accept their parochial little self-image on face value.  Also,
>>>	much of their self-image comes from contact with Americans who
>>>	are the weird ones, but are too parochial too know it. and so
>>>	are free and easy with their generalizations.

>>     Yeah, seems like it. You made a big generalization above.

>Perhaps you should re-read Mr Goldman's original post. 

      I was pointing out that his mentioning that "Japanese love being
different" is a generalization. This statement was in his recent
posting but not in his original article.

But anyway, let's go back to his original post as you suggested.

Michael Goldman-san writes:

>	Someone on the (perennial) rice thread mentioned
>	that Japanese are paranoid because Japan is so
>	crowded.  Sigh.

   I remember mentioning that (either on the net or in the e-mail to
someone).


>	Another school year, another group of netters
>	with the same old myths about Japan.  Time to
>	repeat one of my posts from last year.

   Since I am not a student, a school year doesn't really affect me.

>  I keep running into the myth "Japan is a crowded little island" as
>  an explanation for a wide variety of things perceived as "only in Japan".

   I understood from this sentence that he was meaning to say that "Japan is a 
crowded little island" is a myth. The title of the thread (Is Japan Crowded?),
was also helpful for me to understand that he was trying to say, "Japan's
'crowdedness' is not a reason for Japan(ese)'s characteristics 
becuase Japan is not so crowded." Actually, I don't seem to be the
only person who took his words this way. There were several netters who 
started to discuss if "Japan is crowded" is a myth or not.

  In his latest posting, he stated that his real intention was to say that
Japan's crowdedness is not the reason although he admits that Japan is
crowded. Therefore, people are now aware of what he meant to say by the word,
"myth." Yes, your interpretarion was after all correct, and if you realized 
this when other people didn't, I really respect your insight.  

>  Some of the ridiculous statements I've heard or read:
>
>	"Japanese are so quiet and polite because they live on a crowded
>	 island and have to be more sensitive to others."
>
>	"Land costs so much in Japan because it is so crowded."
>
>	"Japanese are so successful because they live in such a crowded
>	 country so they have to work harder for everything."

   I wonder if these statements are made by Japanese or rather by 
non-Japanese because other than the second one regarding the land costs,
I've never heard Japanese around me making these reasoning. 

>  While no one in this group is so foolish as to believe such nonsense, I
>  thought you might be interested in how crowded Japan is compared to 
>  various parts of the world.

   I'm afraid that his statistical comparison of crowdedness ended up leading
other netters to the misunderstanding of his point.

>  I also wish to point out that the US is an extremely unusual country, and
>  that Japan is more representative of modern industrial nations than is the
>  US.  Most Americans would benefit from taking the view that in contrasting 
>  Japan with the US, they are primarily demonstrating the extreme weirdness
>  of the US, not of Japan.
  
   This statement made me think that we cannot make a valid conclusion
regarding the effects of crowdedness in Japan from the comparison 
between the US and Japan.

[Statistical data deleted.]

>	So why does land cost so much in Japan ?  Mostly speculation.  Too
>	many yen, very low interest rates (partly to support the dollar).
>	Like all speculation bubbles, this one is bursting too, and a lot
>	of banks are being merged into bigger ones because of their
>	depreciating real estate and stock holdings, while a lot of real
>	estate companies are going bankrupt.  (Sound familiar Americans ?)

   Another factor that should be considered is probably a balance between
demand and supply (which is a principle of economy?). If there are a
large number of potential buyers for a limited amount of merchandise,
price would go up to a level where they are equilibrated. (Well, the
price actually went up higher than the equilibrium. Goldman-san's
explanation might be applicable to that oversurge.)
	
>	So why is Japan so successful ?

   I really cannot find any simple answer to this question (You don't
expect me to anyway, do you? 8-)). Probably, most of the points that 
Goldman-san mentioned are valid. If I become rather diplomatic as
UNusual, I'd also point out that after WWII, the Japanese economy and 
industry were jump-started by the aid from the US and other countries
and probably by the Korean War. 

.....
>	Japan
>	has had an incredibly fast move from the farm (1955: 42% in
>	agricultural production, 1962: 29%, vs the US at 4%, and 3%,
>	respectively) and it would be a cause of mass unemployment and
>	social dislocation if Japan's national productivity were at US
>	and German levels.
	
    Being an economics geek, I cannot get the point of this analysis.
Would anyone enlighten me?

    Finally, I still believe that Japan's crowdedness is at least one
of the reasons for Japanese's paranoia. A patient (or an ex-patient 8-))
knows the best ...?

--Michiaki
Newsgroups: soc.culture.japan