From: v124pz9t@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (David Cheng)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: RQ: reversing skill multiplication
Date: 11 Dec 92 22:45:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <1992Dec11.193645.5892@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>, cwatters@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Coyt D Watters) writes...
>In article <Bz3z9o.2zC@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> burdickd@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Dakin Burdick) writes:
> 
>Unfortunately, too many GMs expect a player to be able to do more than
>he is able to perform.  If you can out-debate your player because he
>gets flustered and unable to keep ahead of you, you should not ignore 
>a high Debate score.  Likewise, if a player speaks with a lot of pauses,
>because he is searching a vast vocabulary for the right word (my problem B^)
>do you ignore the fast talk score?
> 
>A near genius character may be played by a player of average intellect.
>In this case, the charcter might be able to figure something that the player
>is unable to.  Would you penalize the character for that?  Or do you figure
>a COS and determine that the charater gets a sudden flash of insight, and 
>give the player subtle (or not so subtle) hints.
>...
>The "social" skills/abilities SHOULD act as crutches to help the weak spots
>in the player's ability to roleplay a character, but not replace the
>roleplaying.  Otherwise, we should never try to play anything beyond our 
>limits.
> 
>-Coyt

I agree with Coyt on this one (although it is totally of Loren's
original thread, which I will get back to).

I think quiet _players_ should be allowed to have outgoing _characters_,
if they so desire.  I also think this applies to INTelligence.

One of my favorite stories:
   At a team D&D tournament, my character had a 17 INT.  The party MU
had an 18.  Our two twin brother fighters had INT of 4 each.
   We came to the part of the tourney where we had to riddle (I hate
riddling...).  Our GM says: "OK, it's you guys against me.  But, I want
to tell you, I am a master riddler, and I have practically memorized
all the riddles in these (...) books.  So, don't use any of them."

   So, we are straining ourselves to come up with things to stump
him.  Out of the 7 riddles we needed, who came up with 5 of them?
Yes, the 4 INT fighters.  

   I hope I am not the only person who sees a problem here (besides
the quality of the GM): the tournament was written this way.

=====

Loren's Proposal:

At first glance, I like it a lot.  Many of the people I've spoken to
about the RQ4 draft don't like the additions to the skill list
(or the many of the extra rules in general).  

What I think is going on is that as special cult skills came out,
they were just "adopted" to the general skill list.  "Hey, there's
a base % listed: that means anyone can try it at n% + bonus."  

You propose:
- Oratory
- Empathy
- Sociable
and then special cult skills of Courtsan and Bargain.

I'm trying to think Devil's Advocate, as I type here...

I totally agree that there is too much duplication in Orate
and Fast Talk.  I see why it evolved (different _flavors_),
but I don't see the need for it.

If I am trying to "Fast Talk" my way out of a situation, do I 
use Oratory or Sociable?

How would certain cultures value each of these "stereotypically:"
Orlanti vs Eirithan vs Yelmic vs Eastern vs Western vs Pamaltelan, etc?

Is there enough variety to fully show the diversity of Gloranthan 
culture?  Was there before?  Is this not a culture issue, but 
an individual issue? (Yes, I think so, as I free associate).

I'd like to see other responses before I commit to the cause,
just because I don't think my thoughts are solid enough yet.


(PS:  Stafford says that the original skill list dwarfed the one
     currently being kicked around in RQ4.  So, don't think that
     they were spontaneous geniuses [genii ?].  Early  playtesting
     showed them to cut it down to what appearedin RQ1.  
     Ah, how the pendulum swings...  Kind of like politics.)

-David Cheng
 drcheng@sales.stern.nyu.edu
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