From: benning@iccgcc.decnet.ab.com.mu.edu
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: RE: Messianic Front [NOT!]
Date: 15 Apr 92 17:46:00 GMT
Article-I.D.: abvax.9204151801.AA03849

>From: strom@watson.ibm.com (Rob Strom)
>
>|>  "BENNING, BRUCE"  writes:
>
>|>      ........................................ If you
>|>      want to meet Jewish believers in Yeshua, I can arrange it for
>|>      you. But just because those folks don't have access to this
>|>      newsgroup doesn't make them nonexistent.
>
>I don't need to meet Jewish believers in Jesus; they're already
>in my wife's immediate family.  I never disputed that they
>exist.  I only objected to the way they were persuaded to
>believe in Jesus.

 OK. But my response came because you said that Messianic Congregations
 and "Jews for Jesus" were "fronts." I took that to imply that those in
 the membership and leadership were not Jew's but Gentiles who pretend
 to be Jew's for the purpose of conversion <wink>,<wink>.
 I contend that these organizations are not fronts.
>|>
>No.  You say your wife's brother is Messianic.  Was your wife
>Messianic when you married her?  If so, and you were a Gentile
>Christian and you considered converting to Judaism, then
>I've learned something new about Messianic Jews.  Do they
>convert Gentile Christians to Messianic Judaism?
>
 1) Neither I or my wife believed in Yeshua when we were married.
    My wife was (still is) Jewish. I was just a Gentile pagan.
    I was not a believer until 1 and 1/2 years of marriage. And that
    came from my own seeking and finding (Jeremiah 29:11-13).
    I was CHANGED from self-centered paganism to a relationship
    with the G-d of creation, the G-d of Israel through
    faith in Messiah Yeshua.

 2) Messianic Judaism, the movement, doesn't convert Gentile Christians.
            [ sorry if I clouded the issue. ]

>Were all these conversions:  yours, your wife's (if she
>indeed became Messianic), and your wife's brother's -- independent?

 Yes. Totally. I began to pray for my brother-in-law (B-I-L) and wife right
 after I was given a circumcised heart. About four years later, my B-I-L
 had his eyes opened up in a very powerful way. This year my wife has
 begun the journey toward receiving her Messiah. It is kind of funny.
 When I first believed, I would show my wife the things I found. In the
 spirit of LEVITICUS 5:1,4,5,17 I shared my faith with her.
 She would just say, "I'm Jewish so I don't need YOUR Jesus." For weeks
 I pleaded with her, but she just laughed at me. I even asked the Lord to
 take from me this new gift I had received and give it to my wife. But HE
 told me that was not HIS way, and He assured me that in His time she would
 believe. One thing to be remembered Rob, is that those who are born-again
 are changed in a noticeable way. In my case, it was REAL noticeable. :-)
 The change came from my interaction with G-d's word, and not other people.
 It was difficult for my wife to deny something had happened to me. I wasn't
 reformed or turning over a new leaf. I had been transformed! So for the
 next five years I just stopped telling my wife about her Messiah. We had
 children and I told her my plan to join the Messianic Congregation so
 my Jewish children would have a Jewish background and know about the
 Messiah (Yeshua). She said NO at first, but after a year of interacting
 with the fellowship (who had been praying for her) she allowed my daughter
 to join me. Soon she began to come. You can figure out the rest.
 No one has coerced my wife in any way. And she knows I love her whether
 she accepts Yeshua as Messiah or not. She knows I lover her more today
 through my relationship with Yeshua, than before I knew Him. Also, her
 brother is very smart. Graduated in the top 10 of his class in business
 college. So the claim that only the uneducated fall for Jesus failed the
 duck test.
>
>|>   From comments made my many of my Jewish brothers, it doesn't
>|>   matter if we in the Messianic movement are Jewish or not. Those
>|>   who oppose MJ's say that those who were Jews before accepting the
>|>   atonement of Yeshua are no longer Jews now.
>
>Well I oppose MJ's, but I don't say that.  Your brother-in-law
>is halachically a Jew.  We would say that the religion he
>practices is not Judaism, which is still consistent with saying
>that he is a Jew.  He and your wife are free to return
>to Judaism without undergoing a conversion ceremony.  You
>may pass this information on to your wife and brother-in-law.

 Thanks Rob. They know they are free to return to Judaism. They also
 know they are free to return to a life without a relationship with
 the G-d of Israel. Once you have tasted G-d and found He is Good,
 it is difficult to go back to your old life.
>
>Your daughter is also halachically Jewish.  She is also
>free to return to Judaism.  (I'm assuming that your
>wife shares your religion and that she isn't bringing
>your daughter up Jewish.  Do you plan a Bat Mitzvah?)
>
 That will be up to my daughter(s). At our Congregation, we don't
 Bat Mitzvah the girls unless they want one. Also, (IOHO) my wife
 and I are bringing our children up Jewish. We just leave out the
 Mistake about +Jesus+ NOT being the Messiah. =-)
>
>|>   [...]    You are just lucky enough to
>|>   have me here because I have access through my brother's help.
>|>           [Thanks again guy's]                  ^^^^^^^^^
>|>
>Your brother also converted to Messianic Judaism?
      ^^^^^^^
     By [BROTHER'S] I was referring to Bruce Tiffany and Dan Herrick.
     These are my brother's in the Lord. Through their help I have
     access to ALT.Messianic.
>|>
>|>   Would you like the short version or the long one about my life
>|>   before I converted?  8-)
>
>It's up to you.  I don't want to pry into your life.
>I understand why some people with no religion become
>Christian.  I don't understand why someone with no
>religion would become a Messianic "Jew".
>
  I believe that when Messiah Yeshua returns, we will all understand.
>--
>Rob Strom, strom@watson.ibm.com, (914) 784-7641
-------------------------------------------------------------------

         Bruce Benning __________ benning@iccgcc.decnet.ab.com

         -------------Religion may inform and reform-------------
         ----------but only Messiah Jesus can Transform----------

  Come and listen, all you who fear God; let me tell you what he has
  done for me. I cried out to him with my mouth; his praise was on my
  tongue. If I had cherished sin in my heart, the Lord would not have
  listened and heard my prayer. Praise be to God, who  has not rejected
  my prayer or withheld his love from me.
                                          [Psalm 66:16-20]