HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Subject: Re: Prince of Thieves wrongos
Reply-To: whheydt@PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 18:25:03 GMT

In article <3427@creatures.cs.vt.edu> jtn@nutter.cs.vt.edu (Terry Nutter) writes:
>Remember the film "The Graduate"?  Dustin Hoffman's intro to the big time?
>At the end, there's a scene where he's running across the Golden Gate
>Bridge.  From what I've been told, to get a better shot, they reversed the 
>directions of traffic on the two levels of the bridge.

:-)

This will support your thesis . . .

That was the San Francisco-Oakland Bay Bridge.  They should him
driving *from* SF on the top deck.  Going from SF, the traffic is on
the lower deck.  

(The Golden Gate Bridge has only *one* deck.)

	--Hal

        Hal Ravn, Province of the Mists, West Kingdom
        Wilson H. Heydt, Jr.,  Albany, CA 94706,  510/524-8321 (home)
-- 
Hal Heydt                    |    "Boycott Time-Warner"
Analyst, Pacific*Bell        |         --J. Danforth Quayle
510-823-5447                 |    "... kill all the lawyers."
whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM    |         --William Shakespeare
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Subject: Re: Pennsic Land Allocation
Reply-To: whheydt@PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 17:26:53 GMT

In article <1992Sep10.141146.1817@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> rday@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Robert E Day) writes:
>In article <1992Sep9.203750.29362@odin.corp.sgi.com> lindal@goddess.asd.sgi.com
> (Linda Levy) writes:
>>Again, an interesting interKingdom change. In the West THE ONLY SOURCE of
>>income for the Kingdom is from exactly that.. extra fees charged at the
>> gate for Kingdom events.  (maybe thats the difference?  Were you
>>talking about extra fees at ALL events, no matter how small?)
>
>Is this "extra fee" mandated by the kingdom, or is it tacked on be the local
>group and sent to the kingdom as a donation?

Kingdom events are funded by the kingdom--and the kingdom gets the
gate collection.  The Autocrat is usually local (though not always).
The constabulary mans the gate (again--usually, XIIth Night is an
exception).  Cash pulls are are handled (by agreement) among the
Autocrat, the Excehquer, and the Constable-in-Charge.  Normally by one
of both of the last two (the Autocrat generally has enough other
things on his plate).  I suspect that it's easiest for the
Exchequer--he's not as likely to be dragged off to the next person who
saw a field mouse and is convinced it s Deadly Danger.  (That's not as
silly as it sounds.  At Ducal we had an obviously sick squirrel wander
into camp and it wound up getting shot by a local cop.  Rabies *is*
endemic among rodents in California.  So's plague in the mountain
areas.)


	--Hal

        Hal Ravn, Province of the Mists, West Kingdom
        Wilson H. Heydt, Jr.,  Albany, CA 94706,  510/524-8321 (home)
-- 
Hal Heydt                    |    "Boycott Time-Warner"
Analyst, Pacific*Bell        |         --J. Danforth Quayle
510-823-5447                 |    "... kill all the lawyers."
whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM    |         --William Shakespeare
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: vader@meryl.csd.uu.se (]ke Eldberg)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: the same-sex and pentacles threads
Date: 15 Sep 92 23:48:34
Organization: University of Uppsala, Sweden
NNTP-Posting-Host: meryl.csd.uu.se

Greetings from William de Corbie!

Carolus Malvoix writes:

>My advice to those who wish to wear the pentacle, is to do so.
>If anyone gives you static, tell them politely but firmly
>to "get stuffed". if they continue to hassle you, get less
>polite and more firm. *Do not* allow them to dictate their
>morals or view points to you.

Tell me, milord: would you be prepared to give the same
advice to someone who wishes to wear a swastika?

If not, you are being unlogical.

William
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mark@cs.hw.ac.uk (Mark Riordan)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.heraldry,rec.org.sca,soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: The High King of Ireland's Coat of Arms
Date: 10 Sep 92 08:56:02 GMT
Organization: Dept of Computing & Electrical Engineering, Heriot-Watt University, Scotland

In article <1992Sep9.174738.14255@dcs.qmw.ac.uk> mmh@cs.qmw.ac.uk (Matthew Huntbach) writes:
>From: jaymin@maths.tcd.ie (Jo Jaquinta)
>>        I was in the National Heraldry Museum yesterday and took down the
>>current High King's coat of arms (O'Connor-Don). Thought people might
>>be interested:
>>                Argent, A Oak Tree eradicated, vert.
>
>Heraldry was imported into Ireland by the Anglo-Normans, and
>was never part of its culture. In fact, by the time heraldry

I am surprised that YOU have a problem with modern day
Ireland providing support for culture which is not from
our celtic past. 

>was in existence, High Kings of Ireland were not. However,
>heralds often retrospectively invented coats of arms for
>historical figures.
>

Sounds like attempts to create a romantic view of the past also
occur in peoples other than the celts. Well I never....

>Matthew HUntbach

MARK
-- 
| JANET:    mark@uk.ac.hw.cs   Mark Riordan,                                 |
| Internet: mark@cs.hw.ac.uk   Dept of Computing and Electrical Engineering, |
| (031) 449-5111 x4172         Heriot-Watt University, Edinburgh, Scotland.  |
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: ciaran@county.lmt.mn.org (Ciaran Benson)
Subject: Re: All-male royalty (no gurls aloud!)
Reply-To: ciaran@county.lmt.mn.org (Ciaran Benson)
Organization: LaserMaster Technologies, Minneapolis, MN
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 92 18:39:27 GMT

In article <1992Sep14.025811.1854@athena.cs.uga.edu>, 
fuller@athena.cs.uga.edu (James P. H. Fuller) writes:
> 
>      I always assumed the rule was to assure that both male and female 
halves
> of the populace will have a representative on the throne in any given 
reign. 
> There are issues that come up in every reign that are primarily of interest
> to women and I would be surprised if the female members of the populace 
would
> feel just as well understood and well represented by a male consort selected
> by a male king as they would in bringing their issues before a female queen.
> 

  Hmmm ... very, very well put.

  And, since there seems to be no strictures, by decree or social
preference, against a MOTSS king or queen, it seems that your
crowned couple are much more like a co-first officers or 
high representatives.

------------------------
Ciaran@county.lmt.mn.org                 Not an LM spokesbeing

  "... hey but I don't care cause sometimes I said sometimes I hear
    my voice and it's been HERE silent all these years" -- TORI AMOS
From: canton@robinson.ilog.fr (Eric Canton)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period songs and their content + books
Date: 8 Sep 92 17:33:08 GMT
Organization: ILOG S.A., Gentilly, France
In-reply-to: DICKSNR@qucdn.queensu.ca's message of 4 Sep 92 02:36:00 GMT


Nobles seigneurs, gentes dames,

Reading the words of lady Sarra Graeham, 
"I have not found a single English song which speaks of an individual
by name", I am reminded of the "Rotrouenge du captif", attributed to
Richard I Coeur de Lion, where some persons are named. Admittedly, this
is a normand song, written in French. (I have the words at home from the CD

* Chansons des Rois et des Princes du Moyen Age
	ENSEMBLE PERCEVAL, dir. Guy ROBERT
	Arion, ARN68031

I'll post them if anybody's interested (with translation :-))
I nonetheless agree with lady Sarra's post.

Another topic :
I recently discovered that the french pocket books publisher "Le livre de Poche"
publishes a series called "Lettres Gothiques", presenting original texts and 
their translation in modern ... French. I own and enjoyed the "Lais de Marie
de France" (end of the XIIth century). Next one I'll get will be "La chanson
de Roland", I think. I'll post the entire list of already published books
soon. Dunno how to get them from abroad, though.

Claude de Montcastel 

Eric CANTON                   | Qui Deus a dune' escie"nce         Marie
SCA : Claude de Montcastel    | e de parler bone eloquence          de
Organization : ILOG (Paris)   | ne s'en deit taisir ne celer       France
e-mail       : canton@ilog.fr | ainz se deit voluntiers mustrer. 
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman)
Subject: Re: pentacles on arms
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 19:45:31 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

Greetings from Arval!  Raedwynn wrote:

> I suspect that I can document a connection between witchcraft and
> pentacles even in period. 

I would love to see such documentation: We looked for it when we were
preparing our appeal to the Board, and we could find nothing.  In the
Middle Ages, we found the pentacle associated with Christian mysticism, as
in "Gawain and the Green Knight".  We found indirect evidence that it was
used as a symbol by alchemists, as you noted, but not direct evidence; on
the other hand, we didn't look very hard for that since it wasn't germane
to our argument: We had already shown that the pentacle was used in period
armory in three or four cases.  Before the Middle Ages, we found the
pentacle associated with the Gnostics and the Pythagoreans, and throughout
history with both Jewish and Islamic mysticism.

===========================================================================
Arval Benicoeur                                       mittle@watson.ibm.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: cctimar@athena.cas.vanderbilt.edu (Charles)
Subject: Re: Pennsic prices
Summary: Margaret's calculations way off
Organization: Vanderbilt University student of numerology
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 92 19:55:48 GMT

To all upon the Rialto doth Charles the clerk send his greetings!

Margaret writeth:
> 8000 * 20.5 = $164,000  (weekend)
> 7000* 4.00 = $ 28,000 (Thursday)
> 6000* 8.00 = $48,000 (Wednesday)
> 5000* 12.00 = $60,000 (Tuesday)
> 4000*16.00=$64,000 (Monday)
> 3000* 20.00 = $60,000(Sunday)
> 2000*24.00=$48,000 (Saturday)
> 1000*28.00 =$28,000 (Friday)
> ----------------------
> Total=           $500,000

The 1000 people who arrived on the early Friday did not pay $28 for
Friday, $24 for Saturday, $20 for Wednesday, and so on.

Correcting for this error gives $276,000, roughly half what was
suggested.
-- 
    -- Charles, student, in Glaedenfeld, Meridies
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: jtn@nutter.cs.vt.edu (Terry Nutter)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Viking Tents
Date: 11 Sep 92 14:51:16 GMT
Followup-To: rec.org.sca
Organization: The Rialto

Greetings all, but especially Siobhan ni hEodhusa, from Angharad.

Of the line drawing including pictures of Viking tents without
bases, Siobhan writes,

>                                                                the page
>in question (p. 272 in my edition) does say that "All of the objects
>seen in the picture were actually found in a grave ship."  To continue
>the quote, "On the left, preparations for baking are being carried out,
>and at right, two tents have been put up.  The foot of a bed is
>protruding from one of them."  Of the objects that I recognize, all of
>them are from not just "a ship burial" but in specific the Oseberg
>burial -- the iron cauldrons, the oil lamp, the kneading trough, the
>stave buckets, and some of the tools are clearly the same as the Oseberg 
>artifacts.  So, if it is true that all the depicted articles were buried
>with the Oseberg ship, then I would be inclined to think that some sort
>of publication cataloguing the find would list the tent parts.

The problem is that the base would generally not be transported, but made
on the spot.  So this is probably a reasonable drawing of the tent, but not
strong evidence for its use without a base.  However, as Thora has pointed
out, there is good presumptive evidence for their having been used so from
time to time.

Responding to Thora, Siobhan ways,

>>This book also contains a number of errors.  It has not been revised since its
>>original publication, and some of the information it presents is now known to
>>be faulty.
>I would love to know a more accurate source.  I've been using THE VIKING
>for lack of anything better.

Just a few days ago, the following showed up on the medieval text mailing
list:

> I assume that you are primarily interested in books in English. The Danish
> Department of the Royal Library in Copenhagen has compiled a useful
> bibliography of publications in English entitled "Literature on the
> Vikings." It covers general literature, art, archaeology, the British
> Isles, etc. It is published by the Department of the Ministry of Foreign
> Affairs, 2 Stormgade, DK-1470 Copenhagen K. It is free; they will send you
> any number of copies (for classes, for example).

Neat, yes?  Thought I'd pass it on.

Cheers,

-- Angharad/Terry
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: aryk@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (A.J.S. Nusbacher)
Subject: Re: Sitting on the fence (was Re: Pentacles/Consorts)
Organization: University of Toronto -- Hart House
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 21:29:15 GMT

In article <betel.716224720@camelot> betel@camelot.bradley.edu (Robert Crawford) writes:

>	The majority of the SCA is in the US.

Yeah?  Well, come over here and say that, Gringo!

>	The flyflot is still a sacred symbol in my religion. I had
>this explained to me after I saw it engraved on the floor of a church.
>However, most people connect it with the Nazis, and for that reason it
>is not allowed in arms. (The flyflots I saw were mirror images of the
>swastika, reflected along one axis so that the legs pointed
>counter-clockwise.)

The swastika was used both ways by the Nazis.  A three-armed version is
currently used by some interesting South African groups.

I saw a book in a used bookstore in Tel Aviv, which was about great Jewish
fighter pilots from the Kaiser's air force.  It was published in Germany
in the twenties.  One of the photos was of a famous Jewish ace who flew
in the same jagdgeschwader as Hermann Goering, and his plane is painted
with that theosophic good-luck symbol, the swastika.  The irony is painful.

I find the idea of prohibiting registration of two symbols to be puzzling.
I do not think it is effective in its goal.  Anybody can display a pentacle
anywhere, thus allowing the local religious zealots to see it on every pouch,
pendant and, yes, shield.  While the Corporation can indeed reassure the
local religious zealots (or suspicious Satan-hunting cops) that there is no
corporate sanction for the use of the symbol, I think the net ill effect is
no different.

Aryk Nusbacher
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: History vs. dreams
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 13:42:00 -0500

From the pen(?) of Etienne de Montagu, good greetings:
     Here in Ansteorra (at least in the southern reaches) there is an
organization outside of the SCA which caters specifically to those with a
fixation on unicorns, dragons, and pointy-ears.  Our barony of Bjornsborg has
generally filtered people with that bent towards them and away from us.  The
general (if unofficial) local opinion is that if someone wants to play live D&D,
they're more than welcome to--in a group that was intended for that purpose. 
The SCA was NOT, in my opinion intended to be all things for all people.  This
personal opinion holds for me not only in cases of elves and wizards, but also
regarding Dynastic Egyptians, post Roman "druids", American Plains Indians etc.
(incidentally I have encountered all of the above in Ansteorra at one time or
another.
    I know that I probably come across as a bit snobbish in regards to this
matter, but these opinions were formed only after a great deal of thought,
experience and consideration.


Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: rancke@diku.dk (Hans Rancke-Madsen)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: History vs. dreams
Date: 8 Sep 92 20:53:27 GMT
Organization: Department of Computer Science, U of Copenhagen

aryk@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (A.J.S. Nusbacher) writes:

>In article <1992Sep6.195201.8461@odin.diku.dk> rancke@diku.dk (Hans Rancke-Madsen) writes:

>>... I've been browsing on the
>>Rialto for the year and more we've recieved it here in Denmark, and I've
>>been saddened to note the vigour of the historical reenactment movement.

>You play your game, Hans.

Oh, I do, I do; but that's another story.

>Let us re-enactors play ours.

If you're reproving me from expressing an opinion when I'm not directly
involved in the matter, then I apologize. If you are telling me that you
have your opinion and you don't care about mine, then I think the most
courteous thing would have been to just ignore me.

>>If anything it seems to me that an insistence on historical correctness
>>will drive out the dreamers. And if things develop to a point where a
>>split becomes inevetable (note the if), then I think you should remember
>>that the dreamers were there first.

>The split is there already, and there are dreamers on both sides, thank you.

I didn't mean to imply that there weren't. I was just trying to find a
convenient label for the "other side" (or my side, depending on how you
look at it). If you'll tell me what label would be more appropiate I'll
use it. That is, if you're interested in my opinion.



      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
------------
- "You don't like the Goths?"
-  "No! Not with the persecution we have to put up with!"
-  "Persecution?"
-  "Religious persecution. We wont stand for it forever."
-  "I thought the Goths let everybody worship as they pleased."
-  "That's  just  it!  We Orthodox are forced to stand around and
   watch Arians  and Monophysites  and Nestorians  and Jews going
   about  their  business  unmolested,   as  if  they  owned  the
   country. If that isn't persecution, I'd like to know what is!"

                -Martin Padway and stranger in bar in
                         "Lest Darkness Fall"
From: mjc+@cs.cmu.edu (Monica Cellio)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Pennsic prices
Date: 14 Sep 92 14:48:18 GMT
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon

A couple of people have complained about the steep prices at Pennsic, and one
has essentially suggested (though reporting rumor) that the Coopers jack the
price up because we'll "pay anything".  I would just like to point out that
the Coopers' mundane rate is $7.50 per night for one person and $10 per
night for two (together).  The Pennsic rate is $4 per night until the final
weekend, when members pay $20.50 for three nights.  A portion of that weekend
money goes to the SCA; I don't know the numbers.  I don't know if part of the
$4 nightly fee goes to the SCA (to pay for privies and other resources that
the early arrivals make use of).

I believe Hal said the cost for Beltane for a week was $25.  I'm curious
about what that bought in the way of services and how developed the land
was to begin with.

Ellisif
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mdewis@esk.compserv.utas.edu.au ( Mark Richard Dewis)
Subject: Re: Colored tape
Organization: University of Tasmania at Launceston
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 92 09:20:06 GMT

Greetings from Richard!

The best way of identifying groups of combatants is the very period practice
of sticking up a large banner with a common badge on the fly. The example
that can be found in any book on heraldry is the English use of St.George's
cross. If, as has been said, the red and blue tape only serves to identify
the groups at a distance, banners would do the job more effectively whilst
enhancing the look of the field. For identification of individuals, the best
solution would be to have each fighter marked with the badge of their side;
although I can see where this could be unfeasible due to cost. Certainly,
there is nothing wrong with using such simple badges as red strips of cloth
tied in a prominent place such as the upper arm. I am sure there must be
similar examples of allied troops adopting an imprompteau badge when they
may have been unfamiliar with the devices of their allies. I wouldn't think
that it would be much more difficult to familiarise fighters with the
relevant badges as part of the inspection process (this is similar to
checks already carried out, correct?).

If my remarks miss any important points, please feel free to correct my
assumptions.

-- Richard of Dunheved, Lochac.
-- 

mdewis@pieman.compserv.utas.edu.au ... but you can call me Richard.
Forma Propositum Perpetuo Praecedit. 
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: MKNETTEL@kentvm.kent.EDU ("Mary Knettel ", Genevieve)
Subject: Early Music
Organization: The Internet
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 14:15:40 GMT

Greetings!

Just thought I'd throw in my two cents on the Period Music discussion.
Perhaps this comment will be totally obvious, but it hasn't been
mentioned yet.

If you want to get a feeling for the music of the Middle Ages and
Renaissance, recordings are available of reconstructions of these
works -- some played on period instruments, some on reconstructions
of period instruments, many on mostly modern instruments.  Madrigals,
Gregorian Chants, Renaissance Brass, Dance music of Praetorius
Arbeau and Playford, Lute music, Music of the Crusades, and lots more.

Check larger record stores for the Early Music section.  Music of
the Middle Ages and Renaissance tends to be popular around
Christmastime.  If you don't want to purchase recordings, check
the library -- especially university music libraries.  Call the
public radio station that plays classical music -- they might have
an early music buff in their ranks.

I am no music historian, but have gained an appreciation for
Early Music through listening to such recordings.  Reading the
liner notes wouldn't be a bad idea, either.  :-)

There are scholars and professional musicians researching,
performing and recording music of the period we are studying.
Even the non-musician should be able to hear how differently music
of the Middle Ages sounds from that of the Renaissance, let alone
from that of the Baroque and later post-17th century music.
This can be done with minimal research!
The composer/performer of music has a bit more work to do, obviously.
Listening to the recordings is at least a place to start.

This stuff is on the market, for sale, and in the library.
Or ask fellow SCA-folk.  There are bound to be Early Music recordings
in many people's collections.

Happy listening.

-Genevieve du Vent Argent, Marche of Gwyntarian, MidRealm
 Mary Knettel, KSU, Kent, Ohio  mknettel @ kentvm.kent.edu
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: aryk@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (A.J.S. Nusbacher)
Subject: Re: Arrow number Two ...
Organization: University of Toronto -- Hart House
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 16:58:27 GMT

In article <716546298.F00007@blkcat.UUCP> Bob.Upson@f333.n142.z1.fidonet.org (Bob Upson) writes:

>In fairness, the SCA bans *all* blatantly religious symbols from heraldry as
>well as those deemed inherently 'offensive' (based on the world at large).

>As mentioned, *all* clearly religious symbols are banned from SCA heraldry, not
>just pagan symbols.  There *is* a bit more leeway in some cases due to popular
>recognition of some symbols more than others, but the intent is clear and, I
>think, honorable.

As some people have pointed out, this is not true.  The arms of Calontir, for
instance, bear the Cross of Calatrava, the badge of an Iberian knightly order
which was the schutzstaffel of the Spanish Inquisition.  Blatantly religious
imagery is in constant use in SCA heraldry, including a mind-boggling number
of molets of six points registered by Jews (in a notable absence of more
typically mediaeval Jewish armorial elements), a lot of crosses (and a cross
is a cross, whether you're using it to divide a field or substitute for the
X in Xmas), and the stag-and-moon imagery of Dianism which Carl Alexander
has quoted from Tally's arms.

Aryk Nusbacher
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca,rec.food.historic,rec.crafts.brewing