From: steele@aem.umn.edu (Stephanie Steele)
Subject: Re: More on Urdu and the Nature of Knowing
Organization: University of Minnesota
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 17:51:50 GMT

mcoffin@iastate.edu (Marie Coffin) writes:

(intro deleted to save space)

>The original proposal was to have a newsgroup where urdu poetry and
>language could be discussed.  Some of us on rap (as well as many
>outside rap) suggested that this might better be formed under
>soc.culture.urdu.  The reply was that Urdu is *not* a culture, but
>rather a language in which much beautiful poetry has been written.
>Fine, we said, why not post some on rap, which is, after all, supposed
>to be a forum for *all* kinds of poetry.

marie, let me start by saying that i very muych appreciate your lucid
and objective approach to the discussion here. a pleasure to read, and
for a change i feel as if we're discussing, instead of, um, what ever
you call that other stuff we sometimes do ;)

i had actually read some of this part of the urdu discussion regading
the 'culture/language' delineation, and i'm with you, 'fine'
and i guess where i 'veer' off from the general argument is when we
get to rap is "supposed to be a frum for *all* kinds of poetry." i
really do understand your (and many others) point of view, but it seems
to me that, while in *theory* rap is open to this type of diversity,
there seems to be a huge gap between this theory and the acutal practice.
maybe i haven't been around long enough, but in my view rap is dominated
by 'anglo' poetry (for lack of a better word.)

>wouldn't understand it, because of the cultural differences.  I won't
>comment on the inherent contradictions here, but I will note that a
>number of what were counted as "yes" votes on r.a.p.u were in fact
>votes in favor of "an Urdu newsgroup", without any specification of
>where it would reside in the Usenet hierarchy.

(sorry, accidently deleted first line of your paragraph) this is un-
fortunate- both the 'wouldn't understand it' response and the confusion
over what people were voting for.

>Your analogy to clubs on campus is, I feel, a bad one.  The proponents
>of r.a.p.u are not so much trying to form their own club on campus as
>they are trying to start their own university.  In the past,
>minorities have done this when they were not allowed on "the main
>campus", so to speak.  I could understand the Urdu people wanting
>their own poetry group if they had been made unwelcome on rap, but in
>fact, that has not happened.

again, i can see where the urdu group, or any other nonanglo group, might
view rap as a *specialized* platform, even though no individual or special
set of rules states 'anglo poetry only in rap,' it has happened this way-
the only exception to the fairly homogenous stuff that is posted on rap
are marek's occasional polish postings of his translations- am i wrong?
have i been missing out on other stuff? so, i can understand the urdu
group wanting their own group even though, in theory, they aren't being
told they are unwelcome, in practice rap isn't diversified at all, and
i think the reason for this has a lot to do with the social dynamics
of the world, which must necessarily slip into this tiny society as well-
it is an interesting and complex problem, which can't, in my opinion, be
reduced to 'individual behavior' or even collective desire.

  Until r.a.p.u was proposed, I don't
>recall having heard any mention of Urdu on rap.  It is unfortunate
>that those interested in Urdu poetry would want a separate group
>without ever having tried to share with us on rap.

yes, it *is* unfortunate that a seperate group is needed. and it *is*
unfortunate that the urdu group didn't feel comfortable using rap-
ideally most of us want rap to be a diverse, intersting group with
lots of diverse, intersting people and poems interacting with one another.
ideally, this is the way we would like the world to be i think, but
unfortunately it just isn't so at this time, on rap, or in the world-
and i try and put myself in the urduphiles' shoes for a minute and i
can really relate to their uneasiness about rap's theoretical diversity.

  Furthermore, it
>sets a bad precedent.  Many of us enjoy the wide diversity of poetry
>on rap and hate to see it splintered.

again, i don't see rap as containing a 'wide diversity of poetry.' what
are you referring to?

>I found your remarks about knowledge rather confusing.  Knowledge
>(whether a noun or a "verb") has to come from someplace.  I presume
>that knowledge of Urdu poetry is not going to descend on me out of the
>sky.  I could acquire such knowledge (1) by reading books on the
>subject or (2) by talking to someone who knows about it.  Therefore, I
>asked someone who knows about Urdu poetry to share his insights with
>the rest of us.

i think a '3' can be added to your list though, if and when rapu is
set up, and that was my point. maybe i misinterpreted you statement (it
wouldn't be the first time :)) but it sounded as if you were justifying
your ignorance of urdu poetry by claiming you couldn't know it unless
it was posted on rap for you. i read this as an extention of your desire
to have the urdu group abandon rapu and post instead in rap. this is why
i commented that i didn't think it was the urduer's responsibility to come
and educate you, and i still believe this. i feel strongly that any
exchange of knowledge (between different cultures,languages,arts) should,
ideally, be exactly that, an exchange, a coming together. but in the
case of underrepresented, or 'marginalized' voices, i think those of us
operating out of a somewhat priveleged position need to make an extra
effort. it is only fair.

  I find it shocking that you would equate such a
>request with intellectual laziness.

no, not 'laziness,' rather, i felt you were assuming that the urduphiles
belonged in rap and therefore should bring their knowledge to rap. you
are assuming that everybody is operating on equal turf. my argument is
that rap is full of one language, one culture, pretty much, and the
urduphiles didn't feel like they could belong in the way they needed
to belong. i respect that situation.

  You also seem to be contradicting
>yourself with the food analogy where (if I am reading you right) you
>suggest that we go "to the source" to obtain knowledge.  I thought
>that was what I was doing.

um, not really, but i think i explained why i feel that way above.

>In closing, I would like to note that, since I requested a sharing of
>knowledge, that has in fact taken place.  Sayan Bhattacharyya has been
>posting information about Indian poets that was news (at least to me).
>Thanks, Sayan! 

good, i'm glad. hopefully if rapu works out, more urdu poets will have a
place where their particular needs and wants regarding urdu poetry can
be fullfilled with the utmost attention and organization. rapu will
be an excellent place for rappers to go and learn about urdu poetry,
and in turn the urduphiles will be able to post in rap without
comprimising the focus and discussion they desire from their own forum.

steph     
>Marie Coffin




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=======================================================================
			   Stephanie Steele
			steele@chip.aem.umn.edu