From: jpak@oakhill.sps.mot.com (Jim Pak)
Subject: Re: Women Asking Men Out
Summary: Rejection comes in all forms
Keywords: rejection
Reply-To: jpak@manute.sps.mot.com
Organization: Motorola Inc.  Austin, Tx.
Distribution: na
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 19:31:39 GMT

In article <1993Jan3.182250.27614@nynexst.com> clare@nynexst.com (Clare Chu) writes:
In article <1993Jan2.175230.16673@vax5.cit.cornell.edu> q2tj@vax5.cit.cornell.edu writes:
>>> [Alan Hu writes:]
>>> You know, I hear women (of all ethnicities) complaining that men (of all
>>> ethnicities) don't like being asked out.  I hear this over and over.
>>> And I can't figure it out.  When someone asks me out, I'm both very
>>> flattered and also very impressed that the woman actually took the
>>> initiative and asserted herself.
>
>This is a soc.singles topic (but):

Ditto.  But bear with me.

>>   You know what?  I'm really shocked and surprised to hear
>>this about women.  I have *never* heard of a man who didn't like
>>being asked out.  In fact, when a woman asks a man out her chances
>>of sucess are quite high (not 100%, of course) and it is rare
>>that her approach will be rebuffed with hostility.  The reverse is
>>definitely not true, a man must be quite skillful in approaching a
>>woman so that she isn't turned off, turned angry, or scared away.
>
> I've known men of all ethnicities complaining about some woman
> who was "after" them.
> [party anecdote deleted]

You know, I stayed away from this debate for a while, 'cause I couldn't figure
it out myself, but now I think I get it.  I think there's truth in what both
Alan and Steve wrote, but also truth in what Clare wrote.

I believe that when it comes to women *explicitly* asking men out on a "date,"
especially a first date, few men refuse, unless the guy is extremely popular
with women and thus gets asked out all the time, or else the guy is really,
*really* not attracted to the woman.  I think most men are indeed flattered
when they are explicitly asked out by a woman.  This corroborates with what
both Alan and Steve are saying.

On the other hand, I certainly think it *is* true that men tend to run away
from women (with whom they're not attracted) who keep trying to hang around
them, or who call them up a lot "just to talk," or who always wind up being
where the guy is, "just coincidentally."  All that attention is fine IF the
guy is attracted to the woman; however, if he's not, he *will* start to avoid
her.  I've seen this happen plenty of times.  Hence the feeling on her end
of being rejected, even if she never *explicitly* asked him out on a date.
(And it's a justifiable feeling too, because it IS a rejection.  Just because
you don't formally ask someone out on a "date" doesn't mean you didn't get
rejected.)

So while there may not be that many guys around who can say they turned down
a date request from a woman (I don't think I ever have myself), I think there
are *plenty* of guys out there who have brushed off a woman who showed interest
in them, and probably did so before the woman had a chance to feel confident
enough to ask him out the first time.  This is what Clare and other women are
probably talking about, and it's a valid complaint.

I think men tend to see it as a rejection only if a formal request for a date
has proffered and turned down.  Whereas, if you broaden that definition to
include times where the guy pretty much tried to avoid some woman who showed
too much interest in him before she could ask him out once, you'll see that
both men and women probably do an equal share of "rejecting."

>>I suspect that what is going on is that everyone knows this, so 
>>when a woman approaches a man and it doens't go 100% perfect she
>>is quite alarmed (since all the conventional wisdom says that
>>"men will always *love* attention from a woman").  Therefore it'
>>probably just a case of too high expectations on the woman's part,
>>even though odds are things will go well for her. 

I suspect that a lot of the "men rejecting women" scenarios happen before the
women even has a chance to work up the courage to ask the first time.  I've
seen this plenty of times.  Haven't you guys ever seen it where some girl
gives a guy a card or flowers, or puts balloons on his desk on his birthday
or some other special day, and he pretty much ignores it or gives her only
the most cursory thank you?  I've seen it.  In fact, I know of one case where
the guy literally ran away to avoid being seen by the girl.  And on and on.
I could probably list about 5-10 "boy rejects girl" stories off-hand, and I
don't know *that* many people.  In only one case did the girl formally ask
the guy out.

>  Maybe.  But I think that if the guy doesn't reciprocate, you might
>  as well give up, because they're probably screening their calls
>  and talking about you.  Your probability is high for a first date
>  but at some point you expect him to show some interest.

Exactly.

It feels no better to be rejected in that sense than it does to have an
explicit request for a date turned down.

Jim