HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: grex@world.std.com (Mark J Urbin)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Multiple Attackers
Summary: Don't forget the Rodney King lesson...
Keywords: Hooray for Hollywood!
Date: 15 Apr 92 14:27:40 GMT
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA

In article <1992Apr14.221644.3286@uwm.edu> ninjam@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Marty) writes:
>sasso@flounder.phy.anl.gov (John F. Sasso) says:
>
>>>at least temporarily disabling that one, with a strike to the throat, eye-
>>>gouge, kneestrike in the groin, etc.  Then it is one-on-one.  Total and
>>>spontaneous aggression has the effect of taking even multiple attackers
>>>by suprise.  My best advice for multiple attackers is to run like hell
>>>and hope they're slower.  That approach would have saved me a badly
>>>bruised rib once.
>>HAH!  The Aikido approach.  
>>Aikido lesson 1:  Run like hell.
>Unless of course there's a camera.  Then drop into a ninja/cat stance,
>make Bruce Lee howls, and cut loose....
>Or...
>Drop into the splits/Jean Claude Van Damme stance, and show off
>your butt for all the girls watching at home.
>Oh well.... :)
    No, no, no.  If there is a camera present, let them hit you a few times,
while you curl up.  Then use your Barfing Dragon Block (tm), followed by your
Claw of the Roaring Tiger Blow (tm) and Dim Mak Reaping Foot Sweep (tm).
  If there is a camera present and you hit first or even act agressive, your
foe will counter with the dreaded Lawyer On A Commission Strike (tm).

-- 
Mark Urbin  grex@world.std.com     These opinions are mine.
"Justice Department studies show that armed citizens are much less likely to 
suffer losses or personal injury from thieves" -- Washington Post 1/7/92
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: jswartz@mbunix.mitre.org (Swartz)
Subject: Dojo in Colorado Springs
Organization: The MITRE Corporation, Bedford, MA
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1992 17:01:18 GMT

On a recent business trip to Colorado Springs, I came across a school called
the American Black Belt Academy (ABBA).  Anyone know anything about it (good,
bad, or indifferent)?  I spoke with the master instructor there (Terry Bryan,
former head karate coach of the US Air Force Academy), and was pretty
impressed.  Please send responses via E-Mail.

-- 
JOHN A. SWARTZ - The MITRE Corp. Bedford, MA * John_Swartz@iegate.mitre.org
||| "The bank called me up and told me I'm overdrawn.  Some freaks are  |||
||| "burning crosses out on my front lawn.  And I can't believe it, all |||
||| "the Cheetos are gone!  It's just one of those days." --Weird Al--  |||
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: bud@ms.uky.edu (William K Glunt)
Subject: Re: novice to master of basics to novice
    <1992Apr9.192615.3170@craycos.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1992 21:36:23 GMT
Organization: University Of Kentucky, Dept. of Math Sciences
X-Bytes: 

In article <1992Apr9.192615.3170@craycos.com> sog@craycos.com (Steve Gombosi) writes:
>As far as all the cute, spiffy colors are concerned...there are a few 
>people on this group (and Bud *is* one of them) who have been training 
>long enough to recall when *most* karate styles only used white/black,
>white/brown/black, or white/green/brown/black. I think it's a little
>gaudy and undignified, myself...but hardly the most flagrant example
>in American martial arts. I'm still unhappy that *we* went from a 
>6 kyu to an 8 kyu system.

 Sensei still used white, brown, and black...this was in the early
 1970s.  I was a white belt for six years, and I can tell you all
 for sure thar belts don't turn yellow, orange,...etc.  They just
 get kind of grungy looking and disgusting looking.  ;-)

>
>A lot of us geezers still have trouble with seeing RED belts, since in
>Judo this indicates a very high dan rank and on Okinawan it tends
>to be used only for those of Hanshi (9th/10th dan) rank. Seeing some
>13 year-old wearing one really *does* push my buttons, I'm ashamed to
>say.
>

 Cough! cough! Get my pills, sonny....wheeeezzzeeee...

  ;-)
>Steve


Bud
-- 
Dr. William K Glunt     | Are you ABNORMAL?
************************| Then you are probably better than most people!
U of Kentucky math dept | Are alien space monsters bringing a STARTLING NEW
home phone 606 258 8864 | WORLD?  from _The book of the SubGenius_
From: sog@craycos.com (Steve Gombosi)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: novice to master of basics to novice
Date: 8 Apr 92 17:21:46 GMT
Organization: Cray Computer Corporation

In article <MARY.92Apr8100922@martinique.Cayman.COM> mary@Cayman.COM (Mary Malmros) writes:
>
>In article <1992Apr7.060352.997@craycos.com> sog@craycos.com (Steve Gombosi) writes:
>
>   In article <1992Apr6.110713.1525@brandonu.ca> lampij@brandonu.ca writes:
>
>[snip]
>
>   >	The beginner is given the white belt...  This is withheld in some clubs
>   >	until the begginer has successfully completed a given number of classes
>
>   Hmmm, then how does he hold his uwagi ("jacket") together? More to the
>   point, how does *she*...
>
>That is why Jigoro Kano invented the Jogbra.  ;-)

In white and black only, of course ;-).
Until you get to be 6th Dan or so...then you can wear a red one.

>Seriously...we wear belts at all ranks, but it's pretty common for
>the top to come undone, start falling off the shoulders, etc. during
>a vigorous workout (or even a not-so-vigorous workout...mass-produced
>jammies aren't known for their good fit).  Some women wear t-shirts, 
>but most of us just wear a jogbra or something like that and let it
>all hang out.  I've never heard the guys comment, so I assume they're
>all either oblivious, blase, polite, or intimidated.  ;-)

Heh heh heh...this reminds me of a story.

Back when I was teaching in Tallahassee (Hi David!), a rather stunning
(and, er, uh, well-endowed) young woman joined our class. She was 
doing three-step prearranged sparring with one of the other black belts
(who also happened to be named Steve). As she stepped in to deliver the 
second attack, her uwagi flew (actually, *burst* is probably more accurate)
open. Her partner was absolutely transfixed by the specatacle. He was not
so transfixed that he failed to block and counter. His sense of ma-ai was
somewhat impaired, however. In a nutshell, he knocked her cold. She decided
the "natural" look was not appropriate for class. BTW: they moved in together 
the next week. Not my style of courtship, you understand...

Steve
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: bud@ms.uky.edu (William K Glunt)
Subject: Re: Bruce Lee on Classical Karate
    <1992Apr10.220212.25047@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu> 
    <1992Apr11.164902.15080@colorado.edu>
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1992 17:19:48 GMT
Organization: University Of Kentucky, Dept. of Math Sciences
X-Bytes: 

In article <1992Apr11.164902.15080@colorado.edu> ejh@khonshu.colorado.edu (Edward J. Hartnett) writes:
>In article <1992Apr10.220212.25047@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu> Dakin Burdick <burdickd@copper.ucs.indiana.edu> writes:
>>Just to start a flame war...
>>
>>Bruce Lee was in marvelous shape, and had a very good self-defense
>>system (when he wasn't posing for the cameras) and even had a good
>>side kick, but his roundhouse kick was not that good and he really
>>could not do any "advanced" kicks.  The chinese stylist they got
>>to stand in for him on the Game of Death fight scenes that had 
>>not been filmed is a much better kicker (although he does not
>>have Bruce's charisma; but then, who does?).  
>>
>>Dakin
>>burdickd@copper.ucs.indiana.edu
>>
>
>I don't know if this is really true, or just another urban legend, but I
>once read that one of Lee's legs was almost an inch sorter than the other,
>and this caused him extreme difficulties. Any truth in that?

 I have a fuzzy memory of Linda Lee mentioning this in her book....
ah,  what was it....! "Bruce Lee, the man only I knew", or something
close to that title.

Bud
-- 
Dr. William K Glunt     | Are you ABNORMAL?
************************| Then you are probably better than most people!
U of Kentucky math dept | Are alien space monsters bringing a STARTLING NEW
home phone 606 258 8864 | WORLD?  from _The book of the SubGenius_
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: liblit@cs.psu.edu (Benjamin R. Liblit)
Subject: Re: Fashions (was: Black Belt)
Organization: Penn State Computer Science
	<1992Apr5.003358.12464@cs.rose-hulman.edu>,<MARY.92Apr6092536@martinique.Cayman.COM>
	<1992Apr7.020455.17544@cs.rose-hulman.edu>
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1992 07:06:27 GMT

In article <1992Apr7.020455.17544@cs.rose-hulman.edu> acharya@HYDRA.ROSE-HULMAN.EDU writes:
>
>waitaminit...are we talking dobok or hakama here? if dobok (what is a
>dobok?), how does it apply to hakama;

"Dobok" is the Korean word for "white karate pajamas", you silly
Japanese stylist, you.  :-)  :-)

--

			Ben Liblit
			liblit @ cs.psu.edu -- brl102 @ psuvm.psu.edu
			"Fais que tes reves soient plus longs que la nuit."
From: sc1u+@andrew.cmu.edu (Stephen Chan)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Fashions
Date: 6 Apr 92 15:55:51 GMT
 <4dqqq0a00iU4MAMOgP@andrew.cmu.edu> <1992Apr2.170944.27231@walter.cray.com> 
 <wdr8eT600iU4MBXmRO@andrew.cmu.edu><1992Apr3.175512.27740@relay.nswc.navy.mil>
Organization: Comp & Comm - Telecommunications, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA

snorthc@relay.nswc.navy.mil (Stephen Northcutt) writes:
> Ah yes patchless.  I have a problem.  The master in his finite wisdom
> has decided that he wants all instructors to wear a patch.  The patch
> says "black belt club".  I have always secretly laughed at people
> who wear black belt club patches and now I am supposed to sew one on.
> Oh well, this is a case where I need to start procrastinating as
> soon as possible.

	Well, I have seen the Spring '92 fashion lineup, and I'm glad
to say that the upscale Meikdo fashions are NOT endangered.
	I saw some schools where the folks had patches for everything,
korean flag, american flag "instructor" patch, "Sensei" patch, name
patch, etc...
	I saw an airbrushed dragon on one jacket.

	The Penn State Isshin-Ryu folks had plain white keikogis with
those humungous water-goddess patches, and special "Penn State Karate
Club" patches on the sleeves. Sorta spiffy.
	I saw a whole dozen or so teeny-boppers in hakama and
hachimaki, waving around naginata and shinken. Menacing midgets.

	I'll have to admit that I much preferred the plain black
Kung-fu uniforms and the plain white traditional Karate uniforms, with
no lettering. I don't even like patches.
	How un-hip of me :-)

	No sequins, or fur collars. I guess no one there had received
the newest Meikdo MA Fashion Catalog.

	The day-glo sparring gear was definitely an eye-catching
statement. There was one young model who wore a black and yellow
headgear which I thought was particularly fetching. Combined with the
dark hair, dark complexion and black patchless keikogi, it was a bold, yet
tasteful statement. However, her white sparring boots seemed to clash.
	In the men's fashion category, the air-brushed dragon on a
blue denim keikogi was the big eye-catcher. But one BB sporting the
long haired look (like the guy in "Best of the Best") wore a yellow
tropical print tank top which was also an attention getter.
	For the Spring '92 season, I predict that bright colors and
striped (lots of stripes) will be de rigeur (sp?) for the fashion
conscious martial artist.

Stephen Y. Chan		Programmer Analyst	CMU Telecommunications
stevec+@cmu.edu		(412)268-5115 [me] 	(412)268-4987 [FAX]
From: poore@ds9.scri.fsu.edu (David Poore)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Which Martial Art
Date: 7 Apr 92 19:27:01 GMT
Reply-To: poore@ds9.scri.fsu.edu (David Poore)
Organization: Florida State University

In article <1992Apr7.151917.22548@uwm.edu> ninjam@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Marty) writes:
>to do with political strife again (politics in martial arts? yuck!).
>William Cheung and Leung Ting were both students of the late
>Yip Man.  William was handed the Grandmaster title, and of course

Ahem. Politics indeed. This piece of information, is of course, subject
to dispute. From what I can piece together, I don't think *anyone* was
handed such a title by Yip Men before he died. Further, I have seen some
evidence that William Cheung was about 16-17 when he moved to Australia.
Also, I have seen a photo of Yip Men's funeral, wherein William Cheung
is not walking with Yip Men's older students, nor is he wearing the
white sash on his arm that the others are wearing. Now, I do not claim
this to be "The Truth". I am simply stating that many disagree with
Cheung's assertions and that there is some evidence to indicate that
what he states may not be true. 

Regardless, it seems clear that there is no such thing as "Yip Men
Sanctioned Wing Chun", and from what I gather he would not want it to be
this way. There are plenty of written statements to the effect that Yip
Men tailored his instruction to the individual based on size, strength,
speed, and I am sure many other factors. So, IMO, these disputes are all
meaningless, and the Wing Chun each teaches is exactly the Wing Chun
they were taught.

David Poore
poore@ds9.scri.fsu.edu
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: ejh@khonshu.colorado.edu (Edward J. Hartnett)
Subject: Re: Question on Musashi
Organization: Cooperative Institute for Research in the Environmental Sciences
Distribution: na
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1992 14:53:59 GMT

In article <12440@auspex-gw.auspex.com> bae@Auspex.COM (Brian Ehrmantraut) writes:
>In article <1992Apr14.224516.2643@leland.Stanford.EDU>, sworking@leland.Stanford.EDU (Scott Workinger) writes:
>> Note that as a martial artist, 
>> in many jurisdictions there are special laws that pertain to your behavior, 
>> especially if it can be argued that you started the fight.  
>
>	Interesting - can you provide any references for this?  None of the
>state penal codes I am familiar with make any distinction between a martial
>artist and and untrained person.  Nonetheless, I've often heard statements
>to this effect.
>
>	Now, certainly you have to be careful to keep the level of force you
>use in the "reasonable" zone, for both criminal and civil reasons.
>
>-- 
>		Brian A. Ehrmantraut
>
>BELL:   voice:(408) 492-0900  fax: (408) 492-0909  
>USnail:	Auspex Systems, 2952 Bunker Hill Lane, Santa Clara, CA 95054  

I once read a book called "American Law and the Trained Fighter," which was
written by a laywer-type MA, and was extremely interesting. Sorry, I don't
remember the author, and I don't still have the book, but I got it from
Asian World of Martial Arts in Philadelphia.

The author discussed many cases, and the general conclusion was that you can
make no blanket statements about the subject. Whether or not you'll be
convicted of assult is highly dependant on the judge, jury, and circumstances.
One general trend that he noted was that MAs are given more latitude when
deciding that a pre-emtive strike is necessary (like if you're in an alley
with two muggers, you don't have to wait to attack, and MAs a presumed to
be better qualified to judge if this is necessary).

One other thing I remember is that you must always try to get away, if possible,
unless you are in your own home, in which case you don't. Also, you don't have
to warn that you have studied MA, but you do have to warn that you will defend
yourself, unless doing so would make your self-defense more difficult (i.e. if
you're in a situation where you need suprise in order to defend yourself
effectively). One other thing is that the capability of your attacker is not
important. If a 90 year-old man takes a swing at you, you're allowed to 
ring his bell just as if he were a 25 year-old biker.

All of the above were general trends, based of court precedents, but the general
message was that when you get in a fight you're rolling the dice twice,
once by fighting (and maybe losing) and once in court (and maybe going to
jail). There were some scarey case-histories in there.
				Ed Hartnett
From: snorthc@relay.nswc.navy.mil (Stephen Northcutt)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Which is most effective? Point/Edge weapons.
Date: 10 Apr 92 17:45:36 GMT
Article-I.D.: relay.1992Apr10.174536.26512
Reply-To: snorthc@relay.nswc.navy.mil (Stephen Northcutt)
Organization: Naval Surface Warfare Center

> +>   did.  A katana or tachi can slash the wrist of a fencer in a sweeping
> +>   motion before the tip of a long sword would be able to reach the
> +>   kenjutsuka's body.
>  A katana is the ultimate blade.

Hmmm and my weedwacker harnesses the penultimate throwing star, the
ultimate, yet to come, functions like the widget on "I come in peace".

Foils are pretty durn fast, often longer than a katana so who can say.
===================================================================
You call that a sword?  THIS is a sword!
From: poore@ds9.scri.fsu.edu (David Poore)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Multiple attackers
Date: 16 Apr 92 12:33:38 GMT
Reply-To: poore@ds9.scri.fsu.edu (David Poore)
Organization: Florida State University

In article <barry.703381379@citr.uq.oz.au> barry@citr.uq.oz.au (Barry Kitson) writes:
>tac@cs.brown.edu (Ted A. Camus) writes:
>>  The difference was that Foo would be merely dodging Uke, while Nage
>>  was actively *controlling* Uke during the movement.  It is always
>>  possible to run around your opponents; Nage would want to do this too,
>>  if convenient.  
>	No, Foo should ALSO be controlling U.  Surely if Nage can do it
>with Aikido, someone of similar competence in Foo-do can do the same
>(by definition ;^) .

I wouldn't presume to speak for other arts, but I can think of three
which I've had personal experience with. Wing Chun and XingYi (which I
study) and Taiji (which my XY teacher also practices)...each of these
arts tends to rely on tactile sensation to react rather than sight (if
you've seen a thorick chow video, you've seen this demonstrated). What
this means to me, is that these are inherently close range arts, and are
all arts that like to 'stick' to their opponent. Now, I am sure there
are plenty of Chin Na and throwing techniques in these systems and that
I am just not good enough to see them (well, I can see a few), but you
might fairly call these stiking arts. Inherent to sticking and staying
close, is an element of control. As I am being taught now, I always want
to try to close the gap, get in contact, and stay in contact until I can
safely get away. To me, this *is* controlling in the same way you
present the controlling aspect of Aikido.

>be trying some nasty things with my left arm and leg (/knee).  What 
                ^^^^^
>exactly is shihonage anyway? :^) 
            ^^^^^^^^^
Ouch. Shihonage *definitely* falls into the category of nassssty.
Opps...sorry, it's a desert topping.

>>>Now, you are in a crowded bar
>>  Unlikely, I don't like beer ;-)

Unfortunate. How will you ever be able to practice smashing people's
heads into the bar??

David Poore
poore@ds9.scri.fsu.edu
From: brankin@cbnewsk.cb.att.com (william.t.rankin)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Herbal Poultices
Date: 17 Apr 92 13:43:26 GMT
Article-I.D.: cbnewsk.1992Apr17.134326.5377
Organization: AT&T

In article <1992Apr16.205104.2090@intelhf.hf.intel.com> troy@intelhf.hf.intel.com (Troy Allison) writes:
>poore@ds9.scri.fsu.edu (David Poore) writes:

>>Meikido copyright infringement for me to use it...Meikido Lawyers
>>are a truely frightful thought!)

>I thought all lawyers had at least a first Dan in Meikido, part of
>the requirements for law school or something...   :)

>Troy

No, no, no, you got it backwards. part of the requirements for a
Meikdo Shodan *is* a law degree!  (Or was that a San-kyu requirement?)
(Third Guppy?)

;-)

-bill
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: acharya@HYDRA.ROSE-HULMAN.EDU
Subject: Re: Kata (was Re: Just what is a BLACK BELT? (good question)
Reply-To: acharya@HYDRA.ROSE-HULMAN.EDU
Organization: Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1992 19:32:31 GMT

In article <1992Apr11.222741.5356@ms.uky.edu>, bud@ms.uky.edu (William K Glunt) writes:
>
> Is this Gojushiho (Go ju shi ho---54 steps), or is one I've not heard
>of?
>
>Bud (whipping out the note book and preparing to write...)
>

	ok, kanji time...is go ju shi ho:
			
	go: hard
	ju:soft
	shi ho: something to do with shiho nage (4 corner throw)???

mukund (whipping out the note book a fraction of a second later than bud...)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: bud@ms.uky.edu (William K Glunt)
Subject: Re: Bruce Lee on Classical Karate
    <kuc4o3INN8td@aludra.usc.edu> 
    <1992Apr10.220212.25047@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu>
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1992 17:06:54 GMT
Organization: University Of Kentucky, Dept. of Math Sciences
X-Bytes: 

In article <1992Apr10.220212.25047@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu> Dakin Burdick <burdickd@copper.ucs.indiana.edu> writes:
>Just to start a flame war...
>
>Bruce Lee was in marvelous shape, and had a very good self-defense
>system (when he wasn't posing for the cameras) and even had a good
>side kick, but his roundhouse kick was not that good and he really
>could not do any "advanced" kicks.  The chinese stylist they got
>to stand in for him on the Game of Death fight scenes that had 
>not been filmed is a much better kicker (although he does not
>have Bruce's charisma; but then, who does?).  
>
>Dakin
>burdickd@copper.ucs.indiana.edu
>

 Not only that, but remember that great backflip near the start
of 'Enter the dragon'?   It was a Korean acrobat.

Heh heh.   ;-)

Bud
-- 
Dr. William K Glunt     | Are you ABNORMAL?
************************| Then you are probably better than most people!
U of Kentucky math dept | Are alien space monsters bringing a STARTLING NEW
home phone 606 258 8864 | WORLD?  from _The book of the SubGenius_
From: willimsa@unix1.tcd.ie (Gavin Williams)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: mubobi (was Re: Bruce Flame)
Date: 15 Apr 92 15:54:42 GMT
Organization: Trinity College, Dublin

In <1992Apr14.180619.15905@aio.jsc.nasa.gov> lmgay@aio.jsc.nasa.gov (Leroy M. Gay) writes:


>I have to disagree.  Hard hits are going to happen at a point contact
>tournament, but it is not a full contact tournament and both competitors
>should be able to go to work the next day with at most bruises.  If a
>person knocks out somebody then he is demostrating a lack of control
>and should be disqualified.

>-- Leroy __

A friend of mine pulled a hook kick completely during sparring one evening.
The touch of the foot to the chin was TINY, but he hit what I am told is
'the refletic nerve (?)', and his opponent went down, jelly legs style,
and then decided to take a nap.  I think he had the control, but just 
had also the luck to hit a nerve spot.  There were no bruises, in fact,
his oppenent said that she didn't even feel it!

Has anoyone else come across something like that?

--
As usual, JIMHO.
	  Gavin...                  Plus qu'il n'en faut.           
	  willimsa@unix1.tcd.ie                                      
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: doug@eng.umd.edu (Douglas N. Cohen)
Subject: Re: Bruce Lee on...
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 92 01:00:54 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park, College of Engineering
Summary: follow-up
Followup-To: doug:  < doug@eng.umd.edu > : < doug@lpf.umd.edu >
Keywords: clarification addendum

In article <1992Apr12.204921.21049@wpi.WPI.EDU> scollins@wpi.WPI.EDU (Suppasak Collins) writes:

>In article <12417@auspex-gw.auspex.com> bae@Auspex.COM (Brian Ehrmantraut) writes:
>>In article <1992Apr10.110614.765@gacvx2.gac.edu>, karsten@nic.gac.edu (Karsten Hendrick) writes:
>>> I'm not trying to hardtime you or anything, this is just curiosity.
>>> Which martial artists do you consider to be exemplary fighters?
>>

	< snip snip >

>>		Brian A. Ehrmantraut
>>

>
>	Several people have mentioned other names of great fighters/champs as 
>well.  My question is, what rules/regulations are these fighter fighting under?
>Are these kickboxing, TKD, Muay Thai rules or what?
>
>-Art

	of the names *i* listed in my post (previously) you name the rules, and
as long as we are talking full contact.... as to point contact, probably, as
well, if they would condecend to fight under such conditions, which i find 
highly unlikely....
	and, as always, i am/at:

             doug:  < doug@eng.umd.edu > : < doug@lpf.umd.edu >

           -=-=-=-=-=-=-< a ghost in the machine >--=-=-=-=-=-=-