From: dcs@witsend.tnet.com (D. C. Sessions)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Messyantics
Date: 26 Jan 93 23:20:09 GMT
Organization: Nobody but me -- really
X-Mailer: TMail version 1.15R

In <1993Jan25.115225.35654@ucl.ac.uk>, ucakrvb@ucl.ac.uk (Vijay Bhuchar)  wrote:
# 
# In article <1993Jan21.191354.18812@engage.pko.dec.com> pub@riscee.pko.dec.com (Publius) writes:
# >In article <1993Jan21.181245.26932@ucl.ac.uk> ucakrvb@ucl.ac.uk (Vijay Bhuchar) writes:
# >>
# >>Actually, the last two decades have seen a massive increase in the 
# >>number of 'Messianics' (Jewish Christians).  Most of them ARE grateful
# >>for Gentile witnessing.

  This is usually called 'response bias'.  It's like saying that
  most people who buy a particular brand of toothpaste prefer it
  to competing brands.  The more interesting question is whether
  these people represent the target market (that is, Jews).
  If not, are the remainder massively ticked off?  This is
  usually poor marketing technique.

  (A related question is whether the enormous amounts of money
  being spent to suck in Jews might accomplish more elsewhere;
  some of the numbers I've seen for $$/proselyte are really
  hard to accept.)

# >And the Gentile Christians should be grateful to the Messianics for
# >restoring the Jewish root of Christianity, which, for centuries,
# >has been neglected or ignored.   

  If 'twer so, 'twould be.  The fact is that the J4J operations
  are strictly a PR front for major churches.  They prey on the
  most ignorant Jews who don't know enough about Judaism to
  recognize the BS they're being fed.  A direct consequence is
  that the new recruits also don't have much to bring to the
  party (except, maybe, a taste for gefilte fish).

  Considering the sponsorship of the J4Js, it's highly doubtful
  that it would matter anyway.  These churches already have
  fully-developed theologies, after all, which are quite
  incompatible with Judaism.

# I completely agree. Too many Gentiles get the impression that Jews
# 'convert' to Christianity whereas belief in Christ for a Gentile
# is really a conversion to true Judaism (i.e. Messianic Judaism).

  It's possible to engage in fruitful dialogs between Xtians and
  Jews, (OK, add Islam.  Glad to see you guys here!) but only on
  a basis of honest mutual respect.  At root, "Messianic Judaism"
  is neither honest nor respectful.  Dishonest, in that it claims
  a nonexistent identity between Xtianity and Judaism;
  contemptuous, in that it misrepresents Judaism where convenient.

  The above quoted paragraph of Vijay's illustrates both of these
  points.  Vijay shows contempt for the truth in his disingenuous
  implication that apostate Jews aren't converting to Xtianity.
  He illustrates his contempt for Jews in his arrogation to
  himself of the right to define what Judaism IS.

  Despite theological claims to be the inheritors of the Sinaitic
  covenant, Xtianity has for two millenia recognized itself as a
  separate religion.  Throughout that time apostate Jews were
  only too glad to break all ties with their pasts, even to being
  the most zealous persecutors.  (I except the Spanish Conversos,
  who in some cases have preserved their Jewish roots for 500
  years despite intense persecution.)  It's a little late to be
  disputing the trademark now.

  Disclaimer: I am not attacking the beliefs of Jews who have
  converted to Xtianity.  They are welcome to enjoy the same
  freedom of religion which I defend for myself.  I must, however,
  insist on some sort of truth-in-labeling here, where Xtianity
  is openly called by its proper name and not disguised under
  some misleading label like "Messianic Judaism."  This tactic is
  insulting to both Judaism AND Xtianity; I would hope that
  Xtians would have enough self-respect to wear the name proudly
  instead of hiding behind false advertising.

--- D. C. Sessions                            Speaking for myself ---
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