From: sallyb@qiclab.scn.rain.com (Sally Bowley)
Subject: Re: sunrise, sunset...sunrise, sunset...
Organization: SCN Research/Qic Laboratories of Tigard, Oregon.
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 02:26:37 GMT

In article <j8kn_qd.boserj@netcom.com> boserj@netcom.com (Jeffrey Boser) writes:
>sallyb@qiclab.scn.rain.com (Sally Bowley) writes:
>>boserj@netcom.com (Jeffrey Boser) writes:

sory for taking so long to reply; stuff going on. jeff, since this was
posted by you, i've also read pooh bear's post about beinghurt by
being referred to in the third person. i'm going to honor her feelings
and not do that anymore. i will try and reply to your post in a
"generic" way.

and to poohbear : i'm sorry if i contributed to your hurt feelings by
talking about you; it was a bit of a difficult situation to be in as i
was trying to reply to jeff's comments on a correspondence between you
and me. it was hard to do without mentioning you; i fully understand
why you felt unhappy about being discussed and that others were
assuming they knew how you were feeling about the cutting. it must
have been frustrating for you. again i apologize.

>I do condone it.  I even condone suicide.  I happen to believe that
>a persons right to do as they wish with their body and life is
>absolute and implicit.

 jeff, i agree with this absolutely. but when a person states that
 they are engaging in a pattern of behaviour that results in
 unfavourable (to them) consequences, and then seems to take some of
 the advice offered to them in response, i see it as a cry for help to
 try and stop that behaviour. 

>By paying the price I mean that poobear is the one that must put
>up with the therapist who is trying to save her from herself, having
>to put up with the questions from the emergency room people asking
>questions, and with the possibility of someone locking her up.

understood.

rest deleted as  it concerns pooh bear

>This is where we differ.  I think it is not wrong to hurt oneself,
>and that we all do it every single day of our lives.  And that it
>is possible to gain from it, to use it to evoke change, to use it
>to shape emotions and make the tools needed to cope with the world.

i disagree - i think! i'm not quite sure what you are saying here. how
do you think we all hurt ourselves every day of our lives? i certainly
am not aware of hurting *myself* *every* day of my life. i agree that
it is possible to learn from pain - we have to, in order to move
forward. 

>>i see my goal as a
>>survivir to STOP the hurting by others and myself and live the rest of
>>my life as free of pain as possible. it begins with taking care of
>>*me*; only then can i protect myself against others.
>
>I have strong misgivings myself about this.  Ever time I made up my
>mind and decided that the pain was wrong and I wanted to stop it,
>I curled up and locked myself away.  There is no way to save people
>from themselves, and giving them love to help them see your way is
>pretty manipulative.  My aunt does this..  I love you but youve got
>to stop doing this..  or start doing this..

why did you curl up and lock yourself away when you decided to stop
the pain? i'm not sure i understand what you mean my "saving people
from themselves" - could you elaborate please? 

>People are, they love, they hate, they feel pain, they feel joy.
>Every time one of these things is taken from us, we cease being
>human.

cease being human? how? sorry for all of the questions, but i'm
genuinley interested in what you mean here. 

>>i can't speak for poohbear of course, but it seemed from posts
>>thathe/she was seeking ways to end the pain also. 
>
>Well, this is true.  But then again, she comes to the group and tells
>how badly she is feeling, and gets lots of replys saying poor baby,
>heres a hug.  Let me help you feel better.  Then trying to show her
>all these other ways.

i left this in because i want to ask you what you feel is wrong with
offering help to a person in need? we can only respond in a limited
way thru these screens; often the written word seems inadequate to
what i am actually feeling as i read the posts and reply to some of
them. simply put, i saw someone in pain, i saw someone reach out. i
offered what help i was able from my viewpoint. it was there to be
accpeted or rejected, as is all help/support/advice posted here. and i
don't hink *anyone* responded in this particular case with "poor
baby".... you belittle us by saying this.

><frown>  I have yet to meet a person who was not paying, who finished
>up the payments and could then go on to a bright and better future.

how sad. i've met several, hope to meet a lot more and hope to be one
of those people. i'm on my way right now.

>All I see are sad, lonely people, all too aware of the pain thats out
>there, and not letting that beat them into submission.  They stand
>proud, their shoulders slumped under the heavy weight of pain, and
>they still manage to smile every now and then.

yes, there are many people like that. and more power to them for not
letting that pain beat them into submission. i see that very statement
as one of the first steps to "finishing up the payments".......

>>>.....jeff
sally

>
>.....jeff
>