From: oispeggy@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (Peggy Brown)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Education...the magick solution
Date: 22 Aug 92 02:13:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <199208212024.AA25403@intercon.com>, amanda@INTERCON.COM (Amanda Walker) writes...
>oispeggy@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (Peggy Brown) writes:
>>
>> Don't forget the students too.  Everyone seems to always forget 
>> about them.  They're responsible too.
> 
>This is true, especially once they reach adulthood, but the younger a child, 
>the more the parents and community have responsibility for its upbringing, 
>including education.

This sounds so prissy.  Do you have any idea how f*cked up 
most families are?  Even the families that have 2 parents and no 
other problems are more often than not dysfunctional to some 
extent, and kids from these families are the lucky ones. Many children are 
being raised by 1 parent, often in poverty.  

Plus a lot of people don't give a care and its their right not to 
give a care.  

>> Without an exceptional amount of motivation, many
>> students would not be capable of learning as much as you suggest 
>> they should.
> 
>I disagree.  i've never met a kid, even with bona fide learning disabilities, 
>that wasn't interested or able to learn.  Some of them have been burned out 
>by school per se, but they still have plenty of enthusiasm for learning in 
>contexts where they *do* get rewards (if only from their peers).  The lack of 
>motivation (and often outright negative motivation) is something I blame 
>squarely on the surrounding social structure.

I don't know agree with your first statement.  Plus, its not 
feasible to expect that every child, regardless of how difficult, 
will get enough personal attention from a teacher to make them 
bloom.

I do think the root of the problem is with the social structure - 
which influences the families and community.

>> I wonder how other countries get such high ratings in education?
> 
>Simply speaking, their social structures values education in ways ours do 
>not.  Now, at the graduate level, the U.S. has the best educational system on 
>the planet, because it is highly valued by the social system.  Taking a 
>broader view, I think this is a symptom of some deep problems our social 
>system has with children themselves, but that's getting even farther afield.

Re: problems with children, you bet.  No support system here for 
people trying to have families and take care of them decently 
(despite all the yapping about family values).

>> IMO, if your curriculum was adopted, the drop-out rate would soar 
>> and many people of average intelligence would have trouble, those 
>> of slightly lower than average intelligence would be tortured.
> 
>Without any other changes in the educational system, you are quite right.  I 
>don't know what the solution is, but it would have to be systemic, since the 
>problem is also.

Agreed.  The educational system right now is very discouraging, 
especially for those currently being processed by it.

>> A little tolerance is in order.
> 
>I agree.  On the other hand, it'll never change if no one cares...

There's a lot more that needs to be improved besides education.

>> No offense but you 
>> remind me of people who naturally wake-up early every morning 
>> and then make out like its an incredible virtue.
> 
>Heaven forbid :).  Now, I do realize that I have much greater learning skills 
>(and  perhaps native ability) than most people.  However, this is itself part 
>of why I'm concerned.  *I* can handle my own education without societal 
>infrastructure--I'm not the one who's affected adversely.  It's the people 
>who don't find it so easy, and who end up being explicitly conditioned *out* 
>of using their learning and problem-solving ability that are the victims.

Enough already!  You've mentioned over and over how brilliant you 
are.  Big deal.  IMO the one's who think they're the *most* 
intelligent, seldom are.  After 14 years working in higher ed. and 
for the past 3 years at a *medical* school, I've certainly heard 
enough nonsense of this sort.

BTW, you mentioned (somewhere) how great our higher education 
system is.  It is great.  I'm sure you also know that *many* of 
the scientific and technical students here are from other 
countries. 

>> Our society 
>> already tends to measure people's worth too much in terms of 
>> iq and academic achievements.
> 
>I'd have to say "yes and no" to this one.  Standardized testing is pretty 
>worthless, and academic achievements certainly don't have any bearing on 
>anyone's worth.  However, communication and learning are basic human gifts, 
>and I consider stifling them to be a case of genuine harm.

Everyone has to make their own way, and find their own way.  
There has never been and ideal society.  There never will be.  
Sure its good to attempt improvements, especially where helpless 
children are concerned.  But live in this age, in this country, 
is a piece of cake compared to most places and times.

>> There are many people with 
>> good hearts who will never be on top of the heap.  Don't forget 
>> about them.
> 
>I'm not--it's those very people I care about.  The top of the bell curve will 
>do OK no matter what.
> 
>> What is this doing in alt.magick, anyway?
> 
>Uh, it's been kind of a roundabout route :), although I tend to think of 
>learning and magic as *very* closely related.

OK.

- Peggy -