HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: kdcs1012@blurt.oswego.edu
Newsgroups: misc.education
Subject: EDU: PAY MORE FOR LESS
Date: 1 Apr 92 13:05:15 GMT
Organization: SUNY College at Oswego, Oswego, NY

X-NEWS: blurt icc.cs101: 21
From: kdcs1012@blurt.oswego.edu
Newsgroups: icc.cs101
Subject: Edu: PAY MORE, GET LITTLE
Date: 26 Mar 92 20:26:36 GMT
Organization: SUNY College at Oswego, Oswego, NY

Readers,

There's a issue that has been bothering me since this semester started.  I'm
sure that most of you heard about the rally for the preservation of the German
language classes that the school wanted to delete.  Only a small number of
students know about the Technology classes' cut back.

My Technology teacher will no longer be here when this semester ends.  He knew
that  when this semester started.  The reason(s) was that there's
a budget cut for the tech dept., others were just as vague.  Although I'm not a
technology major, I had come to respect this teacher, and the technology that
I had taken for granted.  I guess the "Big Guys" just doesn't think that all
aspects of the techology is important enough, only some is important to keep.

My teacher fought hard to preserve the subjects that he teaches.  But to no
avail, he was eventually notified of his last day here.  The day that he was
told of the forth coming letter of "letting go", a janitor that maintains the
Park Hall building told the assistant to my teacher of the brand new car the
Public Safty had just purchases.  This is the SECOND brand new car this year.
WHAT THE #$%@ was wrong with the ones they had?  Each of these car cost well
over $20,000.  That's over $40,000 spent on "nice cars" for the public safty
people to drive around campus giving out parking tickets!!!  Granted,
occassionally I do see these "officers" go into the City of Oswego for lunch
with their "new cars".  I guess if the Oswego P.D. is getting new cars, the
P.S. should too.

That wasn't the only discerning news of the day.  The SUNY-Oswego
administration also hired a new Dean for $80,000 a year.  NOW, WHAT IS WRONG
WITH THIS PICTURE???????  

Most faculties on this campus is sh_tting in their pants because they don't know
if they need to look for another job tomorrow, and there's a new dean on the
way.  

Let's look at this entire picture.  Teachers, professors are given more
students per class, and increasing in numbers come next semester.  Hands on
work in classes is cut due to classes being taught in lecture hall settings. 
Teachers are being let go due to budget cut.  Tuition is rising (doubled within
a year), and there's all this money for new cars, and a new dean?????

Why not let the Deans handle extra work just like the teachers are giving extra
students per class setting.  These lecture hall setting doesn't allow class
participation, discussions are kept to a minimum, and there's no personal
interaction between the teacher and the students like a smaller class room
allows.

So the bottom line is , as a student, I'm paying more for someone to push
paperwork and pencils than I'm paying for education.

Agian, WHAT IS WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE?????


Anny                            | Here's to Golden Days, 
kdcs1012@blurt.oswego.edu       | and
				| Purple Nights.

			##########
		       /	  \	
		      /	^^^    ^^^ \	   
		     [|     !!     |]
		      |    ____    |
		       \__________/
From: hsong%asylum.utah.edu@cs.utah.edu (Hwal Song)
Newsgroups: misc.education
Subject: computer for kids
Date: 7 Apr 92 18:32:45 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Utah CS Dept

Hi!

I have follwing questions which i need your help.

1) are there any good books to be used teaching kids using pc
   as well as intrducing them what the computer is  and how it works?
2) What is the best megazine to know the current info on pc or 
   particulary IBM or mac pc?

Thank you in advance.

Regards,
song
Newsgroups: misc.education
From: greis@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Gayla Ann Greis)
Subject: John Gatto's _Dumbing Us Down_
Originator: greis@csd4.csd.uwm.edu
Organization: Computing Services Division, University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1992 21:50:02 GMT

Unlike what I promised, I did start to read "Dumbing Us Down." I found it interesting that Carl's point was that all people were not created equal, and for those of you who have the book, right in the beginning, Mr. John Gatto has this to say:

----------

(Reprinted w/o permission from Dumbing Us Down, by John Taylor Gatto. New Society Publishers, Philadelphia, PA. 1992.)
Pages XI-XII

. . . Over the past twenty-six years, I've used my classes as a laboratory where I could learn a broader range of what human possibility is - the whole catalogue of hopes abd fears - and also as a place where I could study what releases and what inhibits human power. During that time, I've come to believe that genius us an exceedingly common human quality, probably natural to most of us. I didn't want to accept that notion - far from it - my own training in two elite universitied taught me that intelligen


c
e and talent distributed themselves economically over a bell curve and that human destiny, because of those mathematical, seemingly irrefutable, scientific facts, was as rigorously determined as John Calvin contended. The trouble was that the unlikeliest kids kept demonstrating to me at random moments so many of the hallmarks of human excellence - insight, wisdom, justice, resourcefulness, courage, originality - that I became confused. They didn't do this often enough to make my teaching easy, but they did



 it often enough that I began to wonder, reluctantly, whether it was school itself that was dumbing them down. Was it possible I had been hired not to enlarge children's power, but to diminish it? That seemed crazy on the face of it, but slowly I began to realize that the bells and the confinement, the crazy sequences, the age-segregation, the lack of privacy, the constant surveillance, and all the rest of the national curriculum of schooling were designed exactly as if someone had set out to _prevent_ chi



ldren from learning how to think and act, to coax them into addiction and dependant behavior.
---- end quote ----

I haven't actually begun the material in this book as of this post, but I will. Just in this one out-take, its interesting to see how many of the topics we have discussed are covered.
Newsgroups: misc.education
From: lee@wang.com (Lee Story)
Subject: Re: Carl Edman's post on: Duty to graduate ?
Organization: Wang Laboratories, Inc.
Distribution: na
Date: 8 Apr 92 13:47:40

Crawford Kilian makes a comment that I agree with unreservedly:

   This discussion on how smart you have to be, in some quantifiable
   fashion, to get through MIT with some quantifiable grade--is
   terminally silly.

and two that I must take exception to:

   A high failure rate would more likely indicate
   fraud than high standards.

and (referring to a statement that about 50% of students fail to graduate):

   It amounts to bilking students and wasting professors' time;...

These are quite true if career preparation and certification are the
two main purposes of undergraduate programs.  If they are not, then
failing to graduate is not necessarily "failure" at all, nor does
attendance for three years, say, of a four year program "bilk"
the student.  He still has usually had the exercise and enjoyment of
learning a great deal, if not enough to become a certified college
graduate.  I can't consider him cheated.  Likewise, it's hard to
consider the professors' time wasted in imparting that knowledge.

On the other hand, if the supposed student has no desire to learn (or
the professor none to teach) but has been coerced into the system
because the certification and purely nominal education are necessary
to gain decent employment in a society that places great value on
diplomas, then he has indeed been "bilked".
--

------------------------------------------------------------------------
        Let your mind go, and your body will follow.
                   _L.A._Story_
  Lee Story (lee@wang.com) Wang Laboratories, Inc.
     (Boston and New Hampshire AMC, and Merrimack Valley Paddlers)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: jbm@hpcndpc.CND.HP.COM (Jane Marcus)
Newsgroups: misc.education
Subject: Researching public schools in U.S.
Date: 16 Apr 92 15:39:07 GMT
Organization: HP Colorado Networks Division

My first attempt to post appears not to have been successful, so I'll try
again (apologies if you receive this post twice):

Hi.  Can anybody give me advice on how to research public school districts?
Of course, one thing that can be done is to visit the schools and to
talk to kids/parents of kids that go there.  But are there any other good
ways?  For example, are there any national studies that might shed some
light on the quality of the school system? Might there be state studies?
Are there public agencies that are in charge of measuring school performance?
What about measuring success via test scores:  does this help, and if so,
which test scores are researchable?

Basically, if I could choose to live in any of several different school
districts in a given area, how could I find out which has the best
reputation?  Any references and recommendations would be appreciated.  If
these are frequently asked questions, my apologies as I only read this group
occasionally.

Thanks in advance,
Jane Marcus
janem@hpfclg.fc.hp.com
From: hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin)
Newsgroups: misc.education
Subject: Re: Duty to graduate ?
Date: 7 Apr 92 15:43:19 GMT
Organization: Purdue University Statistics Department

In article <1992Apr6.213818.11145@uwm.edu> greis@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Gayla Ann Greis) writes:
>In article <29DC983C.10570@orion.oac.uci.edu> cedman@golem.ps.uci.edu (Carl Edman) writes:
>>And another educationist discovers net-news.....

>:-)

>>This is part of the attitude in the group which has controlled  
>>education in america for such a long time and has made american primary  
>>and secondary education the laughing stock of the western world (and  
>>much of the rest of the world, too). At least you have the courage to  
>>admit that you are part of it.

>No, I don't think so. I find it hard to believe that you believe that
>one first grader should be separated out from the others because he or
>she may not be able to spell, yet may be brilliant in Math. I don't
>admit that I am part of a stale organization, and I do believe that there
>is much stagnacity (Is that even a word?) that remains, but I will admit
>that I have commited my life to at least trying to work in, and improve
>the educational system - rather than just sitting back and being a
>fatalist.

I find it much harder to believe that someone claiming to be at all
interested in education is unwilling to develop a talent in an
individual not shared by the other individuals of that age group.

The American educational system before the 1930s at least made an 
attempt to let those who could proceed apace to do so.  It was just
as democratically based as the later one, but it recognized that
different children had different abilities.  No, it did not handle
all the problems, but the main concern was with learning, not social
adjustment.

If we want everyone to have a high school diploma, or a BA, why not
just give them at birth and then let the schools teach those who
can and will learn?
-- 
Herman Rubin, Dept. of Statistics, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette IN47907-1399
Phone: (317)494-6054
hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Internet, bitnet)  
{purdue,pur-ee}!pop.stat!hrubin(UUCP)
Newsgroups: misc.education
From: bd474@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Bill McDonald)
Subject: Re: Homeschooling
Reply-To: bd474@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Bill McDonald)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 92 02:01:33 GMT


In a previous article, casey@chsun1.spc.uchicago.edu (Katherine Casey) says:

 [Al Janow's drivel deleted]

>You say flames will be ignored, but I will flame anyway.  
>
>You must be *incredibly* ignorant to post on a subject you obviously know 
>*nothing* about!  I can't tell you how PISSED I am at what you said because
>to do so would be a waste of my time.  I can tell you know *nothing* about
>homeschooling.  Please keep your "personal opionions" to yourself in the
>future.
>
Katherine,
 
Pay no attention to such folk as Al. Al has a disease.
It's called rigidity. He learned it in public school.  He can't help it.

Fortunately for Al, he has lots of company.  He and his breed
have managed to convince themselves, in the very face of reality,
that public education in America is the best possible thing for kids:
 
>...these children would have had a better chance if they had public school  
>education and had access to the resources of the public education system.
>We don't need more people who will be a burden on society.
 
You see, Al has forgotten, or never knew, that one-on-one tutoring is
acknowledged by even the public schools to be most efficient: the home-bound
student programs offered by the special school districts require less than
an hour a day, on average, to keep students up with their classmates.
He's the type that accuses parents of abuse whenever *they* attempt to intervene
in the academic and social welfare of their children, but then, out of
the other side of his mouth, screams that the public school failures are
due to--guess what? yep--parental failure.  He's got a nice little package
here. No matter what, the public system can never be held accountable for
anything.  Al's rose-colored lenses have fogged over.  It turns out that
Al is as bigoted and prejudiced as they come.  He's only really interested in
*his* personal opinion.  He and Big Brother together know what's best
for folks like you and me.
 
Ssshh.  Katherine, let's be *real* quiet.  We wouldn't want to wake Al up.
He's sleeping so peacefully.  Iowa is a good place for Al--the schools
there are better than (the American) average.  Oh goodie.  Sweet dreams,
Al...
 
Of course, this is just *my* opinion... ;-)

>-- 
>-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
>Katherine Casey			  		  casey@chsun1.uchicago.edu
>"This is the world as it is.  This is where you start."      - Saul Alinsky
>-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
>

Bill McDonald
pbm@rambo.sbc.com
From: casey@chsun1.spc.uchicago.edu (Katherine Casey)
Newsgroups: misc.education
Subject: Re: Homeschooling
Date: 14 Apr 92 18:07:05 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Chapin Hall Center for Children

In article <1992Apr14.113114.27916@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> sdavis@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Stephen S Davis) writes:
>To get started I need some interested homeschoolers/teachers/administrators to 
>come on line and discuss the issues.  i.e. Can administrative functions be 
>handled over the net.  Can my children become involved with the school children
>over the net?  How can we help each other?  Curriculum use, successes, things 
>to avoid, leagal issues, progress issues, gradeing issues, testing issues, 
>participation in school sports/band/trips, how to keep informed of what is 
>happening in the local school, TV usages, video usages, computer usages,
>physical education, daily schedules, work space, filing systems, and on to
>infinitum concerning the domain of the homeschool.
>
>Please cross post this message as appropriate to any place it might solicit
>response.  I will be setting up a file of contacts and post updates and reports
>to any interested parties.
>
>Regards, ssd
>-- 
>Stephen S. Davis                   FUZZNAME: Stephen_Davis@osu.edu
>4910 Upper Valley Rd         EMAIL: sdavis@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
>Dayton, OH 45424             Home (513)879-1869
>OSU APRTMNT (614)262-3480    OSU Work, Ed P&L (614)292-4872

Stephen,

Are you on the homeschooling mailing list?  (I apologize if you are... I 
cannot remember all the names of the people on it.)  If you are not, you
might want to join us in discussing many of the issues you listed in your post.
To subscribe I believe you email to the following address: 

   home-ed-request@IMA.ISC.COM  or home-ed@IMA.ISC.COM

Join in!

Katherine

-- 
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
Katherine Casey			  		  casey@chsun1.uchicago.edu
"This is the world as it is.  This is where you start."      - Saul Alinsky
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
From: donp@hpl-opus.hpl.hp.com (Don Pettengill [CT R+D])
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1992 23:17:45 GMT
Subject: Re: Re: Voucher Initiative
Organization: HP Labs, High Speed Electronics Dept., Palo Alto, CA
Newsgroups: misc.education

>A conclusive proof that government has an irrevocable responsibility
>in education is the following sentence:
> 
>Since government has outlawed ownership of people, government has taken 
>upon itself the responsibility of improving human capital -- ie: education.

By the above logic then, should government also be responsible for
improving the human gene pool - ie selectively breeding us?

Or clothing us - ALL of us?

Or feeding us - ALL of us?

What nonsense.

Left to itself, government would take upon itself
responsibility for EVERYTHING we do - because, left to itself,
government tends to accumulate power.

Your simple statement above fails precisely because it can be used to
justify absolutely anything a government wants to do. So you cannot
answer why, for example, government wants responsibility for educating
all children - but not feeding them. Illogical, wouldn't you say, given
that starvation is a lot more immediate than flunking high school?

regards,

don "feeling hungry right now, actually" pettengill
From: grs01132@stat.appstate.edu (Shannon R. Adams)
Newsgroups: misc.education
Subject: Wanted: Ideas on mainstreaming
Date: 12 Apr 92 04:24:51 GMT
Organization: Appalachian State University


 
I am researching methods to promote peer and/or teacher interaction in 
integrated settings.  My research is geared toward mainstreamed preschools but
I would appreciate ideas for all ages.  

Please send E-mail because I don't read this newsgroup often.  Thanks in 
advance.
-- 
Cecilia Adams     			The only things certain in life are	
<GRS01132@stat.appstat.edu>             death, taxes, and the Duke Blue
<GRS01132@appstat.bitnet>               Devils in March.
Appalachian State University            Sweet Repeat in '92
Academic Computing                      Threepeat in '93
Newsgroups: misc.education
From: msooh@tjhsst.vak12ed.edu (Mary A. Sooh)
Subject: Re: First grader - Reading difficulties
Organization: Virginia's Public Education Network
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 92 12:10:31 GMT

Having had three of my children in the Learning Disabled
classes, I can tell you they give the children a battery of
tests to determine where the problem lies.  These classes can
be very helpful to the children, but you must monitor them very
closely to be sure your child is making progress and to
conteract the negative comments he is sure to get from
classmates.  Remind him that many very successful people had
learning disabilities such as Albert Einstein, Eleanor
Roosevelt, etc.  There's a book listing people such as these.
Most important for your role is to make him feel that whatever
he is doing is great and you have absolute faith that he will
learn to read successfully even if it takes a little longer.
Self esteem in these kids is fragile.  Also, his regular
teacher should be making allowances for his difficulty by
verbally giving him directions instead in insisting he read
everything.  Good luck--your role is very important.
ve
From: ffls@acad3.alaska.edu
Newsgroups: misc.education
Subject: A query for math teachers
Date: 12 Apr 92 10:17:10 GMT
Article-I.D.: acad3.1992Apr12.011710.1
Organization: University of Alaska Fairbanks

Hi, I just want to fly one by this group to see if anyone likes the idea.
Here at U Alaska Fairbanks, we're toying rather seriously with the idea of
offering a masters program in mathematics during the summers. This wouldn't
be the traditional hard core mathematics MS, but it wouldn't be a "teaching"
degree either. It would be a pretty serious degree all in all, since it 
would require breadth way beyond the usual MS and include Probability,
Statistics and Computer Science/Software in addition to a broad spectrum
of pure and applied math together with at least one hard core concentration.
 
Get the idea? It would tend to make you more "liberally" educated than half
your college profs and presumably much more capable of conveying the 
vivacity of mathematics to your students.

There is some chance there could be partial financial aid on this scheme if
we get it into the air, but I am interested in hearing comments about what
teachers think of the content (what little I've described anyway), 
usefulness of such a degree, *desirability* of the degree and, after all, 
whether you think you or your coleagues would want to go for it even without
the financial aid.

Please respond directly to my email address  -  And quickly. With ideas if 
appropriate. Or insults. Anything.
From: icmgr081@Eagle.oscs.montana.edu
Newsgroups: misc.education
Subject: MCAT
Date: 7 Apr 92 05:04:57 GMT
Reply-To: icmgr081@Eagle.oscs.montana.edu
Organization: MSU


Are there any special groups to discuss MCAT and admissions to medical colleges ? 
Please suggest me the names.
If you know something about MCAT, please send me that information too. I will
appreciate your help in this regard.

Thanking you in advance
Prasad_s

e-mail: Icmgr081@Eagle.oscs.montana.edu
Newsgroups: misc.education
From: leblanc@knuth.mtsu.edu (Stuart LeBlanc)
Subject: Re: Teacher evaluation (was: alternative to hitting students)
Organization: Dept. of CS, Middle TN State Univ, Murfreesboro, TN
Distribution: na
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1992 15:09:35 GMT


>Customers DO express their displeasure, even
>in a highly controlled market like formal education, and those
>corporations which ignore it in their decisions can expect either to
>be forced from business, or (in an over-controlled economic segment
>where they can continue to survive) continue to provide an
>ill-targeted and mediocre product.

As I understand your argument, you have advocated that students be the
ones to make hiring, promotion and tenure decisions.  The excerpt above
implies a much more limited and discreet use of student evaluations,
equivalent to the collection of "customer complaints" and consideration
of their points when they appear to be well reasoned.  If this
represents an amendment of your original argument, then I believe that
we have reached agreement.

>In response to a parallel post by Mr. Leblanc: One of the most
>surprising things about leaving an Ivy League program and entering
>industry wass finding that the people from Montana or North Dakota
>State are often just as quick as the Ivy Leaguers.  I'm surprised that
>anyone would deprecate the talents and awareness of their students
>(I presume LeBlanc has students) in the way that he does, and remain
>in academia.

If Mr. Story can extrapolate the "talents and awareness" of the student
bodies of every state university based on meeting two individuals from
Montana and North Dakota State, then he has unprecedented powers of
perception, to which I humbly bow.  If this is not the case however, and
he has employed faulty reasoning, then I encourage him to take a moment
to consider why different institutions have different levels of
selectivity in choosing their students.  He will doubtlessly conclude
that the varying levels of selectivity correlate with varying levels of
"talents and awareness" in the groups of applicants.  It is interesting
to note that if this conclusion is correctly reached, it will be at once
because of the intellect which has been so rigorously cultivated by a
Harvard education, yet also in spite of the superlative degree of
insularity which is inherent in that rarefied argyle-and-ivy
environment.

Stuart LeBlanc
Asst. Professor
MTSU Dept. of Music