HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: efo@pixar.com (efo)
Newsgroups: rec.railroad
Subject: Re: DC fare collection method (was: Others vs BART)
Date: 17 Aug 92 22:38:14 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Pixar - Pt. Richmond, CA USA


Regardless of the vending metaphors used by the BART sign people,
BART's ticket vending machines do not, in fact, permit you to
add value to an existing ticket. Rather, they consume the old ticket,
add its value to whatever cash you insert, and provide a brand-new
ticket.

Moreover, the difference isn't terribly important, since the turnstiles
will, when you've gotten down to the last usable print row on your ticket,
consume that ticket and, again, provide a brand-new one. It's easy enough
on BART to buy a high-value ($20 or $32) ticket and use it every day
for the cheapest (0.80) trip. It's just that, by the time you've made
all (say) 25 trips, you'll have a different ticket than the one you
started out with.

I wonder why I thought this valuable enough to straighten out?

Eben Ostby
From: msb@sq.sq.com (Mark Brader)
Newsgroups: rec.railroad
Subject: Re: Any Britrail experts out there?
Date: 20 Aug 92 13:43:14 GMT
Organization: SoftQuad Inc., Toronto, Canada

> One other thing.  Do NOT take the Piccadilly Underground line from
> Heathrow to London.  It is the fastest route, but even so it is slow,
> with zillions of stops, and packed to the doors.  Take the airport bus
> instead.  It takes about the same time, and you can sit upstairs and see
> the view. 

Others have said that the Underground takes about 50 minutes (more or
less depending on where you're going) while the Airbus is more like 80
minutes.  The Underground also runs more frequently and costs less, and
is not all that crowded outside of rush hours.

Finally, the original poster wanted to get to Kings Cross, which can
be reached directly by Underground but not by Airbus.
-- 
Mark Brader		   "Doing the wrong thing is worse than doing nothing."
SoftQuad Inc., Toronto     "Doing *anything* is worse than doing nothing!"
utzoo!sq!msb, msb@sq.com		     -- Lynn & Jay: YES, PRIME MINISTER

This article is in the public domain.
Newsgroups: rec.railroad
From: ggg9y@poe.acc.Virginia.EDU (Garth G. Groff)
Subject: Re: SF Cable Cars
Organization: University of Virginia
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 12:29:08 GMT

In reference to the emergency brake on cable cars, unless it
has been changed in recent years, it cannot be anything but
effective.  It is a large metal wedge which slams into the
slot if activated.  This is fortunately rare, because it 
produces an instant stop for the car, but not for the passengers.
In these days of mega lawsuits, an emergency application 
could put the whole city out of business.  Using the brake
will probably shut the whole system down for the day, since
the wedge usually has to be cut free with a torch.

The cars have two other more frequently used brakes.  Pine 
blocks slide along the rails and iron shoes press against the
wheels.  The cable itself is also a brake of sorts.
~S
--
Garth (Haridas) Groff
"Not yet famous author"
ggg9y@poe.acc.virginia.EDU         Chant "Govinda Bohlo Hare"
From: bob@1776.COM (Robert Coe)
Newsgroups: rec.railroad
Subject: DC fare collection method (was: Others vs BART)
Date: 14 Aug 92 00:57:50 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: 1776 Enterprises, Sudbury MA

rnewman@bbn.com (Ron Newman) writes:
> Can you elaborate?  I've always found the DC fare collection system
> to be pleasant and efficient, and would like to know more about
> its `mistakes'.

One is the fact that if your ticket doesn't have enough value left to get you
out at your destination, you have to bring it up to *exactly* the right
amount, using a special "Addfare" vending machine.  I think it would have been
far better if they just let you add arbitrary value to the ticket, preferably
using the same vending machines used to sell tickets outside the paid area.
Whether this is one of the "mistakes" made and corrected by BART but repeated 
in DC, I don't know; it's been so long since I've used BART that I don't re-
member it very well.

   ___            _                                           -  Bob
   /__) _   /    / ) _   _
(_/__) (_)_(_)  (___(_)_(/_______________________________________ bob@1776.COM
Robert K. Coe ** 14 Churchill St, Sudbury, Massachusetts 01776 ** 508-443-3265
Xref: sparky rec.railroad:6793 talk.politics.misc:41133 talk.environment:3318
From: hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin)
Newsgroups: rec.railroad,talk.politics.misc,talk.environment
Subject: Re: Cost of transit systems vs highways
Date: 21 Aug 92 20:35:19 GMT
Followup-To: rec.railroad
Organization: Purdue University Statistics Department


In article <71475@apple.Apple.COM> ehouse@Apple.COM (Eric House) writes:
>Propaganda?  You bet.  The stupid game won't let you build a city without
>some cars!  Or so I've heard.

I have no objection to those who want a carless city to build it with their
own money--no tax money.  You will find few people with initiative who would
be willing to travel only when the government allows them.  Real estate values
would be low, as few wish to live in rabbit warrens.

But if you want a city to contain a government for those who want cars,
provide parking for those people.  Otherwise you are taxing people for
what they may think is utter waste.
-- 
Herman Rubin, Dept. of Statistics, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette IN47907-1399
Phone: (317)494-6054
hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Internet, bitnet)  
{purdue,pur-ee}!pop.stat!hrubin(UUCP)
From: jordan@IMSI.COM (Jordan Hayes)
Newsgroups: rec.railroad
Subject: Re: Cost of transit systems vs highways
Date: 17 Aug 92 18:50:54 GMT
Organization: Investment Management Services Inc., NYC

David Lesher <wb8foz@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu> writes:

	That was the case here, where Georgetown fought a pitched
	battle against having a Metro stop anywhere nearby. So there is
	none.  And because of that, there is NOWHERE, but nowhere, to
	park in one of the most popular parts of the city for
	nightlife.

Isn't Foggy Bottom/GWU (23rd/I NW) "close-ish" to Georgetown?

/jordan
Newsgroups: rec.railroad
From: jbvb@vax.ftp.com  (James B. VanBokkelen)
Subject: Re: British Columbia Railroad
Nntp-Software: PC/TCP NNTP
Reply-To: jbvb@ftp.com
Organization: FTP Software, Inc., Wakefield, MA
Distribution: na
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 13:50:33

In article <Bt1pM6.IHt@zoo.toronto.edu> coleman@zoo.toronto.edu (Ron Coleman) writes:

    Is anyone out there knowledgable about the BCR (British Columbia 
    Railroad)?

Trains Magazine has had various articles on BCR (and PGE) over the years.
I recall an article on a system-wide RDC tour in the past few, and I recall
a two-part history of the PGE in the '60s.  Find a library which has the
annual indices (sbuscribers get them too).

James B. VanBokkelen		26 Princess St., Wakefield, MA  01880
FTP Software Inc.		voice: (617) 246-0900  fax: (617) 246-0901
From: stevew@teleride.on.ca (Stephen M. Webb)
Subject: Re: Cost of transit systems vs highways
Organization: Teleride Sage Ltd.
Distribution: na
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 21:18:46 GMT

In article <1992Aug17.193120.10862@pbhya.PacBell.COM> whheydt@PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt) writes:
>In article <Bt4w40.4x5@teleride.on.ca> stevew@teleride.on.ca (Stephen M. Webb) writes:
>>All freeways have done is divide and destroy living, working neighbourhoods
>>in the inner city, contributing to unemployment and the associated increased
>>violence.
>
>Interesting conjecture.  Would you care to match your sweeping
>generalization up with the last few years of development in the San
>Ramon Valley?

Most suburban developments since the 1950's have been at the expense of the
downtown and inner-city neighbourhoods.  It is the same everywhere, not just
the bay area (visit Mexico City sometime).  Urban freeways cut swaths through
inner city neighbourhoods, often destroying traditional community soft
infrastructure (creating psychological barriers).  Those who can afford to
move out of such neighbourhoods move into the new suburban developments,
which are conveniently placed with their backs to the suburban freeways that
will carry them downtown to their office (or out to their nice, sterile
industrial park).  Perhaps their suburban freeway might carry them to a
park-and-ride lot on the edge of town where they can be whisked past the
once-healthy inner city on an express bus (doesn't stop in the inner city,
often takes the freeway) or rail transit (often so crowded with 
commuters that locals can't take it, so move out to the suburbs).

Mind you, this kind of vicious circle started with interurbans (a kind of
streetcar/commuter train hybrid), before the freeway fad.  If you want a
good example of what transportation improvements can do towards ruining the
inner city, look at Los Angeles.  That city was built on streetcars and
interurbans.  They were eventually replaced with freeways.  The replacement
never happened in San Francisco.  Ever notice the difference between the
two towns?

-- 
------- Stephen M. Webb -------

Ack!  I've accidentally broken my leg!  -- Ed the Happy Clown

Newsgroups: rec.railroad
From: CZ94 <CZ94@MUSICA.MCGILL.CA>
Subject: VIA response to CN derailment
Organization: McGill University
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 22:40:39 GMT

Yesterday morning (Wednesday, Aug. 19) a CN freight derailed near
Les Cedres, just west of Montreal Island, blocking the line used
for VIA's Montreal-Ottawa and Montreal-Toronto services.  The
line is still blocked today, as some cars carrying propane are
leaking.

VIA's response to this was to cancel Montreal-Ottawa service and
replace it with buses.  Montreal-Toronto passengers are being bussed
between Montreal and Cornwall, which has become the temporary
terminus for train service to/from Toronto.

A look at some topographic maps (50000:1 scale) suggests to me that
it shouldn't be that hard to get around the blocked stretch of
track.  One could proceed as follows:

- Montreal Central Station to Dorval station on CN, as usual.

- At Dorval, cross over from CN to the parallel CP tracks.  The
crossover here is intended to send westbound trains from CP to CN,
so a short backing manoeuvre would be needed, but this shouldn't
be difficult.

- Take CP's Vaudreuil and Winchester subdivisions for about 30 miles
west to De Beaujeu, where there is a connection with CN's
Alexandria sub.

- For Ottawa trains, go north on the CN Alexandria sub (the usual
route for these trains).  For Toronto trains, go south on this sub
6 miles to Coteau, where you rejoin the usual Montreal-Toronto
route.

This only adds 9 miles to the usual Montreal-Toronto route, and
actually shortens the Montreal-Ottawa distance by 4 miles.  All
the CN track to be used is already used by passenger trains.  The
CP track to be used is a double track main line, so track condition
and capacity shouldn't be a problem there, either.

This route is just idle speculation by me.  Does anyone have any
facts or informed speculation on why this wouldn't work?

More generally, does anyone know how detailed VIA's (or Amtrak's)
contingency planning is in case of blocked track?  Do they keep a
lot of plans ready for how to reroute trains when the regular route
is closed?  Or do they just come up with an emergency response when
a problem arises?

Tom Box
CZ94@MUSICA.MCGILL.CA
From: Steve_Hooper@mindlink.bc.ca (Steve Hooper)
Newsgroups: rec.railroad
Subject: Re: Note on Newport News Wreck
Date: 20 Aug 92 19:11:28 GMT
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Distribution: world

> Eddie Oliver writes:
> 
> In every safeworking system I know, the releasing arrangements for switches
> in power-signalling areas are arranged so that you cannot move the switches
> indiscriminately in such a manner. The occupancy of the relevant track
> circuits will prevent the switches from being released, typically until
> some conditions are specifically tested to ensure safety (e.g. until a
> short approach track has been occupied for some sufficient time period).
> 
> What am I missing? Is such a precaution not provided in US/Canadian
> installations? Or are we talking about non-power-signalled areas, in
> which case the aspect of the previous signal seems substantially
> irrelevant????


Hi Eddie...no, you are quite right.  In CTC, all switches have an "Electric
Lock" or a smaller type of lock so that if a train is signalled into the block,
the switch cannot be opened.  But, in ABS, the switches are padlocked ONLY.
Thus, they can be broken off.

I do not mind talking about this kind of thing on a public system because most
railways in North America have, or are in the process of, converting all the
old switch locks to a style made by Sargeant & Greenleaf.  These locks are
MASSIVE, and extremely heavy duty.  No rock or bolt cutters will get through
these suckers.  Thus the actual reality of someone being able to throw a switch
in front of a train is very very slim.

You can tell the new locks quite easily.  Instead of  the "traditional" look to
them, these ones are silver with a HUGE bolt on them.  They only just fit
through the switch-handle hole.  The keys are unusual too.  They do not have
any "teeth".  Rather, they are a solid rod with indentations that differ
between railways.  Every new key I have seen is silver, rather than the old
brass style.


--

 steve_hooper@mindlink.bc.ca   []  Conductor on the High Iron of
 OR      a777@mindlink.bc.ca   []     CP Rail - Cascade Sub
 The Great White North in      []
 Vancouver, BC CANADA          []   Opinions are mine, NOT CP's
Newsgroups: rec.railroad
From: CZ94 <CZ94@MUSICA.MCGILL.CA>
Subject: Cows and trains (was Re: _Scientific American_ ...)
Organization: McGill University
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 17:37:49 GMT

In article <9208201527.AA02561@asia.fai.com> vaughnw@asia.fai.com (Vaughn Wolffe) writes:
>
>>From: lip@s1.gov (Loren I. Petrich)
>>Maglevs on a maglev test track on Germany that is hardly
>>noticed by cows grazing on a pasture almost directly underneath the
>>tracks.
>
>
>Over 4th of July I went to Santa Fe on Amtrak. The cows grazing
>next to the track did not look up at our train or the highway
>next to it. Heck, they didn't even look up when we stopped in
>the middle of nowhere because the loco died.
>
I once made a train trip with an acquaintance who is a farmer.  He
pointed out how cows run away from a passing train in the spring,
when they're first put out to pasture after a winter in the barns,
but that they quickly grow accustomed to the trains and ignore them.

Tom Box
CZ94@MUSICA.MCGILL.CA

Newsgroups: rec.railroad,ba.transportation,talk.politics.misc,talk.environment
From: stevew@teleride.on.ca (Stephen M. Webb)
Subject: Re: Cost of transit systems vs highways
Organization: Teleride Sage Ltd.
Distribution: na
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 15:23:59 GMT

In article <FP8DPB2w165w@1776.COM> bob@1776.COM (Robert Coe) writes:
>[....]  There's certainly no reason
>in principle why transit systems can't go where the people want to go.  But
>beyond that, Boston (the city with whose situation I'm most familiar) has
>found that the opening of a new subway station invariably results in an in-
>crease in pedestrian traffic and land values in the vicinity of the station.
>"Where people want to go" is to some extent driven by where the transit sys-
>tem goes.

It is in fact a well-documented phenomenon.  Many cities take advantage of the
increase in property values around rapid transit stations (and modal 
interchanges) by either imposing a development surtax or increasing development
levies in the immediate vicinity.  These increased revenues help offset the
cost of building the transit infrastructure.  In addition, the leasing of
air rights above the transit corridor bring in additional revenues.

Freeways generaly do not contribute to such development because of the
nature of freeway driving and personal vehicle commuting.

Classically, transit lines (streetcars) would be built through undeveloped
areas to encourage development.  The development would follow the streetcars
into the suburbs.  When streetcars were removed in most major North American
urban centers in the 50's and 60's, the decay of the inner city began.  With
the new US federal funding programs and the renaisance of urban mass transit,
urban redevelopment is following and American cities are once again coming
back to life.

All freeways have done is divide and destroy living, working neighbourhoods
in the inner city, contributing to unemployment and the associated increased
violence.


-- 
------- Stephen M. Webb -------

Ack!  I've accidentally broken my leg!  -- Ed the Happy Clown
From: gurd@next04wor.wam.umd.edu (Daffy Duck)
Newsgroups: rec.railroad
Subject: Portland RFP for low level LRV's
Date: 21 Aug 92 21:15:53 GMT
Reply-To: gurd@wam.umd.edu

Portland's Tri-County Metropolitan Transportation District want's to buy  
35 low level LRV's to assign on it's new Westside line, and to provide  
enhanced disability access on it's existing line. The new cars will be  
coupled with the existing rolling stock to ensure at least one low floor  
car on every Tri-Met train.  Request for proposals have appeared in  
"Passenger Transport" and other industry publications.  The cost could be  
as high as $80 million dollars.  Tri-Met Board Director Nita Brueggeman  
said of the project, "truly a mileston in transportation technology for  
the community, It makes a first and very big step toward creating public  
transportation that is accessible to everyone."  This order will be the  
first by a U.S. operator for low floor LRVs, and the first to be subject  
to the FTA's 60% (previously had been 50%) Buy American requirements.
Newsgroups: rec.railroad
From: tvervaek@col.hp.com (Tom Vervaeke)
Subject: Colorado Train Help
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 15:27:36 GMT
Organization: HP Colorado Springs Division

I recently moved to the Colorado Springs area. I've always been
interested in trains but have not avidly watched them. Well, I've 
really got the bug now. There is a lot of train activity here
in town. I believe I am on the main north-south route for all 
activity coming through Colorado. I've purchaed a handheld scanner
and spend oodles of time listening to the yard and dispatchers.
 
Where I get lost is in figuring out all the terminology, routes,
etc..  Is there anyone in the area who can lend a hand to a newcomer?
I tend to hang out just north of town in a very small town called
Palmer Lake. This is where the two main tracks coming from Denver
merge into one lane for the next 10-15 miles until it reaches
Colorado Springs. One track I believe is Sante Fe and the other
D&RGW. Howeve, on the D&RGW track most of the trains are Burlington
Northern (nice bright green). The Sante Fe is almost all Sante Fe
trains, some even sporting the Red&Silver colors I have been told are
called "War Bonnet?". 
 
I've met several train buffs who hang out where I do, but none seems
willing, or perhaps doesn't know, the terminology.
 
BTW, Palmer Lakes is a fine spot as the southbound trains must stop to 
wait for other northbounds because there is only one lane.  The crews
will even chat once in a while.
 
Any help will be appeciated.

Regards.
From: CZ94000 <CZ94@MUSICA.MCGILL.CA>
Subject: Re: VIA's excellent, Amtrak sticks bigtime
Organization: McGill University
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 14:58:27 GMT

In article <14346@mindlink.bc.ca> Steve_Hooper@mindlink.bc.ca (Steve Hooper) writes:
>> CZ94 writes:
>>
>> 1. Ham & Cheese Sandwich         $ 4.25
>>
>
>One nice surprise for me last month was when I travelled to Ottawa from
>Toronto.  The ticket price (about $55 I think) included snacks (peanuts etc),
>free coffee, tea, pop etc, and a full lunch including the above sandwich, a
>sclie of cheddar cheese, crackers, pop etc for free.  This is a nice touch as
>in the past this was charged for.

Free sandwiches, coffee, pop, etc. have been offered on some trains
for about 4 years.  They're provided on almost all the Quebec-Windsor
corridor trains, except for Toronto-Niagara Falls and the Toronto-
Chicago "International."  Whether or not you get a full lunch (or
other meal) depends on the time of day you're travelling.  Details
are on p. 16 of the current VIA timetable.

Outside the Quebec-Windsor corridor, you still have to pay for your
food and drink.
>
>One other note...if you ever get a chance to try a VIA Ham & Cheese sandwich,
>DO IT!  I don't know who their suppliers are, but the are absolutely fantastic!
>Ham PILED on a soft croissant, with large slices of white cheese.  Andsolutely
>delicious!
>
On recent corridor trains I've taken, the choice of sandwiches has
been ham & cheese on a croissant (excellent, I agree), egg salad
on whole wheat bread (also good), or tuna salad on white bread (haven't
tried it).

The $4.25 sandwich (cole slaw, potato chips, and beverage included)
I referred to in the previous posting was on the dining car of the
Ocean or Atlantic (Montreal-Halifax).  I don't know if it's the
same as the ones offered on the Quebec-Windsor trains.

Tom Box
CZ94@MUSICA.MCGILL.CA

Newsgroups: rec.railroad
From: cal@ee.ryerson.ca (Calvin Henry-Cotnam)
Subject: Re: VIA's excellent, Amtrak sticks bigtime
Organization: Ryerson Polytechnical Institute, Toronto
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 02:34:57 GMT

In article <1992Aug17.215639.10557@bmerh85.bnr.ca> william@bnr.ca (William Moss) writes:
>
>There's usually (but not always) a choice of sandwiches, including, usually,
>ham&cheese, salmon or tuna, and egg salad. All look fairly substantial.
>Note that the free pop is anything you want, as long as it's pepsi or 7up (:-).
>The orange and tomato juices you see on the cart are available only to purchasers
>of mixed drinks.

Not true!  On a recent one-day trip to Ottawa, my wife and I both had
tomato juices.

Just an additional note on the fares (and an explanation for a one-day
family outing all the way to Ottawa).  This summer VIA has had some extra
special fares, both for coach and first class.  For us, we chose the
special family rate. ("Family" is actually any group of people travelling
together!)  Provided the group returns the same day and travels coach,
the fare is regular one way, and $1 for the return trip.

Yes! One dollar ----AND----> it can be combined with other discounts,
or at least the off peak discount of 40%!

Compare this:

Regular one-way coach fare for two adults ($65 each) and one child
($33 each) would come to a total of $326 plus GST.

Off-peak one-way fare is $39 for adults and $21 for children.

The family special on an off peak day was $39 + $39 + $21 + $1
for RETURN fare. (for a total of $105.93 with GST!)

Not a bad price for such an outing.  Of course, we are a family
of train buffs so a 13 hour outing with just under 5 hours at the
destination and the rest on the train is our kinda outing!

Calvin Henry-Cotnam, CATE            |    MY CANADA INCLUDES CANADIANS!
Ryerson Polytechnical Institute      | I would really like this to include
Toronto, Ontario, Canada             | Quebec - but I won't hold my breath.
Newsgroups: rec.railroad
From: CZ94000 <CZ94@MUSICA.MCGILL.CA>
Subject: Re: VIA's excellent, Amtrak sticks bigtime
Organization: McGill University
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 15:24:26 GMT

In article <14357@mindlink.bc.ca> Steve_Hooper@mindlink.bc.ca (Steve Hooper) writes:
>> William Moss writes:
>>
>> Note that the free pop is anything you want, as long as it's pepsi or 7up
>> (:-).
>> The orange and tomato juices you see on the cart are available only to
>> purchasers of mixed drinks.
>
>When I returned from Ottawa to Toronto on a morning train, I got my orange
>juice free...maybe the porter screwed up or something, I dunno.
>
On early morning trains in the Quebec-Windsor corridor, everybody
gets orange juice, coffee, and a choice of croissant or muffin for
breakfast.

At other times, I've often asked for and received an orange juice.
I've often been told they've run out, and only pop is available,
but I've never been told it's reserved for passengers buying drinks.
A porter did once tell me that he likes to save the apple juice for
kids, rather than adults.

Tom Box
CZ94@MUSICA.MCGILL.CA