From: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (Robert A. Levene)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: (old) Question For Rob Levene
Date: 10 Sep 1992 11:21:36 -0500
Organization: Johns Hopkins University
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu


Bill Carlson writes:

(Note:  Would you please format your messages so that they're
        readable?  Whitespace only costs one or two bytes.)

> >      the idea is more that modern Rabbinic Judaism has built into
> >      itself, (all too often), an auto-rejection of Y'shua as Messiah
> RAL> I insist that you prove or retract this accusation. To do so, you
> RAL> would have to demonstrate that rejection of Jesus as a man-god
> RAL> messiah was the cause, not an effect of Judaism's principles.
>     *And I insist, having proved it, -you acknowledge that it exists!*

You have never proved that rejection of Jesus was the cause rather
than effect of the principles of Judaism.  Please re-post your proof
(or the message-id of it) rather than wave a sealed envelope.


> >     ...  One can be going along in Rabbinic Judiasm,
> >      and simply come to the conclusion that Y'shua is the Messiah,
> >      and woooosh - off you go; even though nothing else has changed
> >      at that point in ones belief system,

So, if a pro-lifer says "I now support the Roe v. Wade right to
abortion on demand" can he now say "I'm still pro-life,
I've just changed this one belief?"


> RAL> A Jew who believes "Jesus was the messiah-ben-Yosef" doesn't
> RAL> really change his beliefs that much.
>     *While one will on occasion hear certain Rabbinim say that Y'shua
>     is perhaps the 'Messiah of the Gentiles', one WON'T hear that He
>     is Messiah ben-Yosef from the Rabbinim!

But he would, of course, change them enough to place himself outside
Judaism, particularly if he accepted the idea of 'vicarious 
human/god blood sacrifice to atone for original sin; non-believers
burn in hell forever irrespective of deeds."


>     ....  Doubt it?  Go to your
>     Rabbi, and tell him you think Y'shua is Mashiach ben-Yosef, and
>     see what happens :-)  You see, the Orthodox view, is that Messiah
>     ben-Yosef, comes and dies immediately before the appearance of
>     Messiah Ben-David, during the war of Magog, at the end of the
>     time of Ya'akov's trouble.

Other orthodox believe that messiah ben-Yosef is not a necessary
prerequisite to messiah-ben-Dovid.


>   If a Jew was to acknowledge that
>     Y'shua was Messiah ben-Yosef, they would already be 2/3rds in
>     align with Messianic Judaism - and such an alignment is not
>     tolerated in Rabbinic Judaism.  How do I know?  Because I've
>     been in debate on CJ-Debate echo, (dist. by MJCN comp.net), for
>     weeks about this very thing!

What is the "MJCN comp.net" and how may one access it?


>  And while they will admit that
>     there IS a Suffering-Messiah concept in Rabbanic lit., they will
>     NOT in any way admit that it is, or could be, Y'shua!*
> RAL> A Jew who believes "Jesus was the messiah-ben-Dovid" is...
>     *Is shunned by the Rabbinic community!*

Only if convincing him to return to Judaism fails.

[...]

>     then couples that with the fact that a Reform Jew can also be a
>     moonie or buddist - yet still make aliyah, and still be considered
>     "Judaic", (if even in only tradition), by the Rabbinic
>     community;

Israel lets in whom it wants under its laws concerning aliyah.

Which orthodox rabbis would consider the beliefs and practices of a
Buddhist or Moonie compatible with Judaism?



>     then any sensitive, thinking, objective person can see that what
>     I said was correct - Judaism has an anto-rejection of Y'shua built
>     into it.  Face it!*

I contend that this rejection is an effect of Judaism's tenets, not
a cause.


> RAL> Now, how do you differ from Evangelical Protestant Christianity?
>
> >           No statues; no easterous/ishatar worship day; no ...
>     *Most of the things in the statement I gave ARE likewise practiced
>     by Protestant Christianity.  {even some in the partial re-quote
>     you gave above - easterous, winter solstice, anti-Nomian}; had
>     you quoted the entire list, there would have been more.*

So much for the choreography.  How do the fundamentals of your
*theology* differ?

[I've separated the next few paragraphs into a separate post]


>   How many
>     "Churches" do you know, that use a Torah Scroll, and go to service
>     on Shabbat and the High Holy Days?!

You can tell a man by the company he keeps:

# 5. We relate to many different denominations and fellowships, some MJ
#    congregations are Baptist, some Pentecostal, some Charismatic, some
#    Lutheran etc..  Being an Evangelical is the covering that we best
#    relate to.
           ---     Says Harvey Smith (officially for UMJC)



>     To call ourselves a Shule/Edot
>     /Congregation, is FAR more accurate than a "Church".*


How many "shules/edot/congregations" use this sort of language:

# 4. our eschatology is as fortold in Matt. 24, Revelation etc..
#    Most are Pre-Millenial without dispensationalism.(overlaping
#    dispensations).
                 ----  Says Harvey Smith (officially for UMJC)


Now compare that to how many Churches would use these idioms.


Rob