HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: sammy@anagld.analytics.com (Sam Blackburn)
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: Re: Some more misconceptions regarding OS/2 and NT
Date: 14 Aug 92 13:35:46 GMT
Followup-To: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Distribution: na
Organization: Computer Sciences Corporation - Systems Engineering Division

mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539) writes:

>In <1992Aug07.085102.4917@microsoft.com> petesk@microsoft.com (Pete Skelly) writes:

>Yeah, but seriously, how many computers come with disk drives?  Now
>count how many have CD-ROM as a 'standard' part of the setup.
>Frankly, I was just a bit hacked off at Sun when they came out with
>this policy of shipping everything on CD-ROM only, and that's for
>workstations that are just a bit higher dollar value than the typical
>Intel machine.  MS doing it is RIDICULOUS.

>It's not a matter of 'not needing money'.  It's a matter of needing a
>CD-ROM. 

Having to have a CD-ROM is a drawback.  To get NT installed on our machine, I had to take apart a Sin CD-ROM drive.  But the good side is that installation is a
no-brainer.  Just let the program go and come back in a few minutes.  I don't 
know if NT will be released on diskettes.  I can only hope so, simply for the 
mass market appeal.  But for MS to distribute Beta NT's on CD is not such an
unreasonable decision.  Look at the target group, developers who generally have
more access to CD-ROM drives than your average user.  I know that MS is planning
on having NT install itself over the network.  This means that only one machine
on the net has to have a CD-ROM.
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
From: rommel@Informatik.TU-Muenchen.DE (Kai-Uwe Rommel)
Subject: Re: Some more misconceptions regarding OS/2 and NT
Organization: Technische Universitaet Muenchen, Germany
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1992 21:38:39 GMT
Distribution: na

In article <1992Aug15.171159.18777@watson.ibm.com> margoli@watson.IBM.com writes:
>> 2) A CD-ROM drive does not write, so it is perfectly useless for normal
>>    people who want to store their own data. It **requires** that you
>>    pay money to someone else for the CD-ROM
>
>This one is a valid point.
...
>My next toy is going to be a floptical.  A diskette that holds 100 - 200
>megabytes and which I can write on seems much more useful to *me*, since
>I can use it for backups as well.  And Pete's arguments about using the
>CD-ROM for distribution of large amounts of software applies equally
>well to the floptical.  As a developer, it means that it's easy to keep
>all my source on it so I can keep my home and work machines in synch.

But for distribution of large amounts of data to a nontrivial number of
people, CD-ROM is the media of choice. It's so cheap to make, only about
$3 per CD including cover! (Plus on-time mastering of perhaps a few
hundred dollars, of course.) I would really like to get all software on
CD rather than on dozens of floppies. MS made a start, they deliver the
Windows 3.1 SDK on a CD, IBM promised CD media for OS/2 and other stuff
this fall. I really like that.

How much is a drive for flopticals and how much is the media? For moving
large amounts of data between home and work machine, I could use a tape
cartridge too (which I must have anyway for backup). The media is
reasonably cheap (about $50 per 1GB cartridge), fast (12 MB/minute) and
large (1GB). I don't need random access for this purpose.

Kai Uwe Rommel

/* Kai Uwe Rommel --- rommel@informatik.tu-muenchen.de */

DOS ... is still a real mode only non-reentrant interrupt
handler, and always will be.                -Russell Williams

Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
From: petesk@microsoft.com (Pete Skelly)
Subject: Re: CW on windows shifting, "Feet of clay"
Date: 10 Aug 92 20:49:05 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corporation

In article <1992Aug7.220232.5551@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> smsmith@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Stephen M Smith) writes:
>
>BTW, "use'd", "compatability", and "sufferes" are spelled wrong in
>your post.  I guess all MS employees really can't spell. :-)  (full 
>smiley)
>
Actually, I've been using PETE.EXE.  And I think you undergeneralized.
All software developers can't spell.  :)

petesk@microsoft.com


Xref: sparky comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy:1891 comp.os.os2.advocacy:4119
From: rickh@aplcen.apl.jhu.edu (OL Hansen richard har 3055722800)
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: Re: Some more misconceptions regarding OS/2 and NT
Date: 18 Aug 92 04:10:49 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Johns Hopkins University

Why is everyone so unhappy about CD ROM? I, for one, have complained
mightily and publicly about lack of support for Mass Market SCSI
cards, etc. But CD ROM'S?

Do what I did in almost every case a new technology came out -
borrow one of the suckers. I disagree with the "limited" hardware
suite the pre-beta release comes with *A month later, and I'm STILL
waiting for the bucks to upgrade my systems to use the LIMITED SCSI
drivers with NT* - but a CD ROM (Especially when an adequate one
comes from DAK for $199) should not be an impediment to anyone.

As for NT - this is the first OS I've ever worked with that knows
what intelligence is all about - it distributes tasks, and itself,
in a way that lets me be less concerned with OS intrinsics and 
more in touch with what the computer is doing FOR me.

Oh - if a 199 dollar CD ROM seems like an impediment, imagine having
to throw away three good SCSI controllers, with the cheapest replacement
being more than $150, which comes out of my pocket.  At least its not
1980, when an HP 9845C cost $50K, with magnificent non=compatible
tapes for long term storage!

Enough flaming - back to work!
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
From: Larry Margolis <margoli@watson.ibm.com>
Subject: Re: Some more misconceptions regarding OS/2 and NT
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 20:29:55 GMT
Distribution: na
Reply-To: margoli@watson.ibm.com
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: The Village Waterbed

In  <1992Aug19.184820.949@terminator.cc.umich.edu>  potts@itl.itd.umich.edu (Paul Potts) writes:
>
> And, of course, I was unable to use the SETVER command because OS/2 does not
> support DOS 5.0 commands...

You can open up the Settings dialog and select DOS Settings, and set
DOS_VERSION to report any version you like.  Or, of course, you could
actually boot a real version of DOS inside the Virtual DOS Machine
instead of using the OS/2 emulation.

Larry Margolis, MARGOLI@YKTVMV (Bitnet), margoli@watson.IBM.com (Internet)
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
From: petesk@microsoft.com (Pete Skelly)
Subject: Re: Some more misconceptions regarding OS/2 and NT
Date: 15 Aug 92 01:04:51 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corporation
Distribution: na

>fred j mccall 575-3539 (mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com) wrote:
>: Yeah, but seriously, how many computers come with disk drives?  Now
>: count how many have CD-ROM as a 'standard' part of the setup.
>: Frankly, I was just a bit hacked off at Sun when they came out with
>: this policy of shipping everything on CD-ROM only, and that's for
>: workstations that are just a bit higher dollar value than the typical
>: Intel machine.  MS doing it is RIDICULOUS.
>

Actually, this brings up a thought.  How many computers were there with
disk drives 10-15 years ago.  Most of them used casette tape (PC's).

(NOTE: use of PETE.EXE in previous sentence)

It must have been really difficult for you to switch over to floppy disks
from cassette.  The price difference was about equivalent to getting
a CDROM.  The same can be said for Hard Drives.

Would you have us still living in the world of cassette tapes for data
storage, where load times were measured in minutes for even the smallest
applications.

People NOT upgrading to newer technologies is REDICULOUS, especially
when it is cheaper in the long run.

petesk@microsoft.com
My Opinions...


Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
From: weinkam@fraser.sfu.ca (James Lawrence Weinkam)
Subject: Re: Some more misconceptions regarding OS/2 and NT
Organization: Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Distribution: na
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 17:19:27 GMT

>>What I don't like is the CD-ROM software you find in stores - they
>>typically want over $300 for one application - even ones that sell for
>>less money on floppy.  Corel Draw! is one example - the CD should cost
>>LESS than the floppy version, not more - it costs about $10 to press a
>>computer-grade CD, compared to the $0.50 per disk it costs to write HD
>>floppies.  This gouging is giving the CD-ROM market a very bad name.

I thought that the disk only version of Corel Draw came on ten disks.
It this is true, the cost of the disks would be $5, less than the cost 
of the CD based on the prices you give.  Thus the disks version should
be priced lower.


Xref: sparky comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy:1993 comp.os.os2.advocacy:4403
From: sammy@anagld.analytics.com (Sam Blackburn)
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: Re: Some more misconceptions regarding OS/2 and NT
Date: 23 Aug 92 13:54:42 GMT
Article-I.D.: anagld.1597
Followup-To: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Distribution: na
Organization: Computer Sciences Corporation - Systems Engineering Division

jonka@microsoft.com (Jonathan Kagle) writes:

>I'm pretty sure that in his keynote speech at the San Francisco Win32 
>Professional Developer's Conference, Bill Gates stated that Microsoft was
>planning to release the source code for NT to universities.  He didn't give
>very much detail about this, though.

Yep, he did.  Rumor has it that he is also willing to submit Win32 API as
an ANSI standard.
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
From: petesk@microsoft.com (Pete Skelly)
Subject: Re: Some more misconceptions regarding OS/2 and NT
Date: 19 Aug 92 23:37:57 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corporation
Distribution: na

In article <1992Aug17.200236.17403@mksol.dseg.ti.com> mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539) writes:

< stuff concluding that CD ROM is a good thing for development >
>
>
>Of course, this assumes a lot of things.  It assumes that the CD-ROM
>winds up being 'plug and play'.  It assumes that I want to buy a
>CD-ROM that Microsoft decides to support.  It assumes everybody else
>will follow Microsoft.  AND IT ASSUMES I WANT A FRIGGING CD-ROM IN THE
>FIRST PLACE.

What you want, I should think, would be some Valium.
you don't want a floppy drive or a hard drive, you
dont want a CDROM.  What you want is a good place to
store small amounts of data so as to give it to your
friend.  A good place to put data.  And a good way of
transfering large amounts of data out to people.
(I worded it this way so as to piss you off cause
I'm telling you what you want ;)

The arguments you give went for floppy drives, hard drives, paper tape,
magnetic tape, etc. in the past.  

>
>[And NT can't take a full CD-ROM (660 MB), either, unless MS is
>*GROSSLY* lying about how large a hard disk someone should have to
>install it.  The only stuff it seems to make sense to me to have a
>CD-ROM for is stuff that has like 500 MB of clip art.]

Try postscript copies of all the docs so as to save money on paper,
as well as trees.

>
>I really don't like it.  I don't like it enough so that I won't buy
>this product.  Not to mention that none of the people I know have felt
>any great need to waste money on a CD-ROM, either; all of Microsoft's
>hype about 'multimedia' notwithstanding.

Fine, be left behind the times.  MS isn't the only company that's going
to start shipping large products on CDROM.  They will probably become
very popular real soon as they become inexpensive (as CD Players did).
You should be able to find them for little more than a floppy disk.

>
>As for calling you in the morning, no need to worry about that.  Does
>Microsoft have a training class where they teach people to be arrogant
>and overbearing, or is it something in the selection process when they
>hire you?

Try reading your own post and tell me if you are arrogant and
overbearing.  If you can claim to recognize others as such, you
shure better be able to recognize when you're doing the same.

Obviously something is pissing you off, and I really doubt it's me,
a little discussion about CDROM, or whatever.  I'd suggest you clear
that up before you try to make any objective business decisions.

petesk@microsoft.com
My Opinions...


Xref: sparky comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy:1976 comp.os.os2.advocacy:4325
From: v053qpgh@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Eric W Sarjeant)
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: Re: Some more misconceptions regarding OS/2 and NT
Date: 21 Aug 92 00:41:00 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <Bt9D0B.9E7@acsu.buffalo.edu>, v053qpgh@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Eric W Sarjeant) writes...
>In article <1992Aug17.161440.25810@sjsumcs.sjsu.edu>, rick@sjsumcs.sjsu.edu (Richard Warner) writes...
>>petesk@microsoft.com (Pete Skelly) writes:
>> 
>> 
>>>Actually, this brings up a thought.  How many computers were there with
>>>disk drives 10-15 years ago.  Most of them used casette tape (PC's).
>> 
>>BZZZZZZT!  Wrong answer.   Many machines had disk drives 10-15 years ago.
                                           ^^^
> 
>Since when did the Apple II's have hard drives? I purchased an Apple IIe
>and hard drive storage was not even an option at the time. As far as I can
>remember, the Apple series was not internally structured to conviently
>fit a hard drive upgrade.
> 
>The first large storage I saw was HP and their Winchester options.

My mistake. I accidentally misread this to mean "hard disk drives" and not
"had disk drives".

Oops.
==============================================================================
 Eric W. Sarjeant                    | "I am only too conscious that I have no
 sUnyaB                              |  claim to wisdom, great or small..."
 v053qpgh@ubvms.bitnet               |
 sarjeant@aol.com                    |
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
From: dic5340@hertz.njit.edu (David Charlap)
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: Re: CD-ROMs and CorelDraw!
Date: 20 Aug 92 19:22:58 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: New Jersey Institute of Technology, Newark, N.J.

In article <jcmorris.714314096@mwunix> jcmorris@mwunix.mitre.org (Joe Morris) writes:

>That's the good news; the bad news was that a survey of the numerous DC-area
>software distributors did not reveal any retail availability of the CD-only
                       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>package, and the street price of the CD-plus-magnetic packages was below
 ^^^^^^^      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>that of the CD-only package ordered directly from Corel.  The result is
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>that I now have an unused set of floppies for Corel Draw!.


>Since all the Corel Draw! kits I've seen *do* include the CD-ROM, I don't
>understand the original posting about a CD-ROM version costing more than
>a magnetic media kit.

You answered your own question.  The only reference to the CD-only kit
has been in Corel's ads.  The only packages I've seen in stores are
floppy-based, and cost less than Corel's advertised price.  To the
casual user (like me) who isn't interested in Corel Draw anyway, it
seems like the CD distribution is more expensive than the floppy
distribution.  If I really wanted the product and was willing to do
some research, I might notice this as well, but I doubt the store
would order the CD-only version and charge me less than Corel's list
price.  (I've rarely gotten discounts on special order products)

-- 
   |)  David Charlap           "I don't even represent myself
  /|_  dic5340@hertz.njit.edu   sometimes so NJIT is right out!.
 ((|,)
  ~|~  Hi! I am a .signature virus, copy me into your .signature file.
Xref: sparky comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy:1949 comp.os.os2.advocacy:4258
From: v053qpgh@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Eric W Sarjeant)
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: Re: Some more misconceptions regarding OS/2 and NT
Date: 20 Aug 92 02:19:00 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <1992Aug17.161440.25810@sjsumcs.sjsu.edu>, rick@sjsumcs.sjsu.edu (Richard Warner) writes...
>petesk@microsoft.com (Pete Skelly) writes:
> 
> 
>>Actually, this brings up a thought.  How many computers were there with
>>disk drives 10-15 years ago.  Most of them used casette tape (PC's).
> 
>BZZZZZZT!  Wrong answer.   Many machines had disk drives 10-15 years ago.
>Closer to the 15 year end they were commonly 8" drives, then went to
>the 5-1/4" about 12 years ago.  Only the real low-end systems, e.g. the
>TRaSh-80, were primarily tape drive.  Apple (I), Apple II's, NorthStars
>and the like commonly had disk drives.  That is why it was so stupid of
>IBM to try to make the original PC a cassette-drive machine.  Sure the
>disk drives were more expensive, but they were so much faster!  
>(I worked in an R&D lab 14 years ago where our engineering 'workstation'
>was a TRaSh-80 with cassette drive and 4K of RAM; we though we were in
>heaven when it was upgraded to an Apple with Disk Drive and 16K!).
> 

Since when did the Apple II's have hard drives? I purchased an Apple IIe
and hard drive storage was not even an option at the time. As far as I can
remember, the Apple series was not internally structured to conviently
fit a hard drive upgrade.

The first large storage I saw was HP and their Winchester options.
==============================================================================
 Eric W. Sarjeant                    | "I am only too conscious that I have no
 sUnyaB                              |  claim to wisdom, great or small..."
 v053qpgh@ubvms.bitnet               |
 sarjeant@aol.com                    |
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
From: pap@tempel.az05.bull.com (Pierre Perret)
Subject: Re: Some more misconceptions regarding OS/2 and NT
Reply-To: pap@myths.az05.bull.com
Organization: Bull HN Information Systems Inc., Phoenix Product Division
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 92 03:32:59 GMT

In article <1992Aug19.202912.3110@mksol.dseg.ti.com>, mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539) writes:
|> In <18AUG199220345466@rosie.uh.edu> st1g9@rosie.uh.edu (Lee Preimesberger) writes:
|> >	Walk into your local college campus CS department with your CD's,
|> >tapes, and $50.  Within ten minutes you'll find someone willing to copy it
|> >over for you.  Really, Fred...these things aren't in Sanskrit! :-)
|> 
|> Really?  This is news to me.  I find it particularly unlikely, since
|> it would require me to find someone who had both a supported CD-ROM
|> and the same type of tape drive that I have.  Cute rhetoric, though.
|> Get back to me when you're out here in the real world.

1. copying the NT CD ROM onto a Colorado Jumbo tape on a friend's system
is exactly what I did to install NT on my system that does not have a CD
drive, but does have a QIC-80 drive. The NT CD can be read on any system
that has a CD drive supporting the ISO format. It is only for the
install under NT that you need the drive+adapter combo to be supported
by NT. I remember seeing a message by a fellow who printed the docs from
the CD using a SUN station. How's that for real world?

2. It is really funny to see you arguing about the unlikeliness of finding
a tape drive compatible with your own, since in earlier postings, you
were claiming that vendors should offer software on tape. Pray tell,
how many tape formats should they support to avoid pissing off people
like you?

-- 
- Pierre Perret -    Phone: (602) 862-5448   FAX: (602) 862-6105
                  Internet: P.Perret@az05.bull.com
                Compu$erve: 73757,2337     BIX: pierre_perret
From: stefan@olson.acme.gen.nz (Stefan Olson)
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: PC and Mac OEs
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 92 08:06:27 +12

ofsmyth@vax1.tcd.ie writes:

> hinders rather than helps.  Compare how easy it is to change printer while
> using an application on the mac compared to Windows (switch to pm - open main
> open control panel - open printer - change - close printer - close control 
> panel- close main - switch back).  Compare also how to rename a file, or how,

Sorry, but it is really easy.  Use FILE, PRINTER SETUP of your application.

...Stefan

------------------------------------------------------------------------
   Stefan Olson                     Mail: stefan@olson.acme.gen.nz
   Kindness in giving creates love.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Xref: sparky comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy:1971 comp.os.os2.advocacy:4303
From: dic5340@hertz.njit.edu (David Charlap)
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: Re: Some more misconceptions regarding OS/2 and NT
Date: 20 Aug 92 18:51:21 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: New Jersey Institute of Technology, Newark, N.J.

In article <1992Aug19.202114.2971@mksol.dseg.ti.com> mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539) writes:
>Yes, I know that.  And they recommend what?  Something like 12 MB main
>memory AND A 100 MB HARD DRIVE (give 50 MB or so).  Hence, there can't
>be more than 100 MB or so on that CD.  Or you need a bigger hard drive
>than they said.

If you had to install all of it.  But you don't.  The CD is like a
huge write-protected floppy.  You can execute off of it, and you can
access its documents without loading them onto the hard disk.  You
don't have to install the 200MB of documentation (if that's the
number, I don't really care right now) - you just read it from the CD.
-- 
   |)  David Charlap           "I don't even represent myself
  /|_  dic5340@hertz.njit.edu   sometimes so NJIT is right out!.
 ((|,)
  ~|~  Hi! I am a .signature virus, copy me into your .signature file.
Xref: sparky comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy:1901 comp.os.os2.advocacy:4147
From: gregde@microsoft.com (Greg Demichillie)
Subject: Re: Some more misconceptions regarding OS/2 and NT
Date: 20 Aug 92 16:22:38 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corporation
Distribution: na

In article <1992Aug17.203142.18330@mksol.dseg.ti.com> mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539) writes:
>In <1992Aug14.181226.18213@microsoft.com> philipla@microsoft.com (Phil Lafornara) writes:
>>     If you look at the amount of stuff in the Windows NT SDK,
>>and compute the number of floppies you would have needed to ship
>>that stuff, you'll see that it would hardly be economical.
>>Besides, didn't I see something on here a while ago about a 
>>"worldwide disk shortage" that was causing IBM to fall behind
>>on its OS/2 shipments?  :-)
>
>I've installed bigger things than NT from floppies.  Also from TAPE
>(which I think is a more reasonable choice, personally -- at least a
>tape is useful to me for backing things up when I'm not spending time
>reinstalling NT.

But tape really sucks if your goal is to only install parts of the
system.  With a CD, I can just leave the parts I don't use frequently
on the CD.  When I need them I just stick the CD in the drive and
browse the information directly from the CD.  With tape, I have to
free up hard disk space, restore the files I'm interested in, look
at them and then delete them again (only to discover that I really
needed a different file after all.) 

>Has anyone noticed how all the people making excuses for this policy
>are from Microsoft?

Has anyone noticed that Fred seems to be the only one making a lot of
noise about this? 

-Greg

-- 
Greg DeMichillie          
gregde@microsoft.com      -- All opinions are mine, not Microsoft's -- 
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy