HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: backon@vms.huji.ac.il
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: israel vs. the world
Date: 6 Jan 93 23:19:10 GMT
Distribution: talk,world
Organization: The Hebrew University of Jerusalem

In article <1993Jan6.1777.22122@channel1>, wayne.mcguire@channel1.com (wayne mcguire) writes:
> To: Josh Backon
>
>  JB> Leibowitz (whose biography was written up 2 weeks ago in
>  JB> Jerusalem's KOL HA'IR weekly magazine on the occasion of his
>  JB> 90th birthday) is a religious fanatic who believes in
>  JB> replacing Israeli secular law with Jewish law (HALACHA).
>  JB> Quite convenient that you didn't mention this which only
>  JB> goes to show how LITTLE you really know on the Israeli
>  JB> situation.
>
> That is an egregiously false statement, Josh. I just finished
> reading Leibowitz's book in its entirety, and the truth is
> entirely the opposite: he believes in the strict separation of
> religion and state. Leibowitz believes that the bleeding together
> of Judaism and secular Zionism is corrupting both of them.

Wayne, I had absolutely *no* idea you could read Hebrew. I'm intrigued. Where
did you learn Hebrew ? In college ? In an Israeli ULPAN ?? On a kibbutz ? How
do you get KOL HA'IR airmailed to you so quickly ? Did somebody fax you the
article ?




>
> Judaism, Human Values, and the Jewish State is a profound work,
> Josh. I know greatness when I see it, and Leibowitz has all the
> hallmarks. This book is going to create waves that will
> reverberate for many decades, and quite possibly longer.
>
> You don't realize by what a thin thread Israel is hanging in the
> Western world.

I'm sure you'll say that when Israel comes out with its petroleum replacement.
ALL OF A SUDDEN Israel will be the world's greatest friend :-)

>Writers like Leibowitz, Harkabi and Neusner are


Let's see: I suffered from awful coffee and stale cookies in Judeo-Nazi's house
on Rechov Ussishkin in Jerusalem in 1981  (we had a nice tete-a-tete); as I
mentioned before, I was in Harkavi's house on French Hill a few years ago for
a quiet chat; and the Neusner's (originally from Hartford) are friends of the
family. So let's just say that I know the gentlemen a *little* better than
does Wayne Mcguire.




> among a small group of Israelis and Diaspora Zionists whom
> opinion elites in the West listen to with any respect. And yet
> you and many other Israelis insult their sanity, intelligence and
> character without taking the trouble to address any of the
> substantive ideas in their works.
>
> No wonder Israel is increasingly going down the tubes....

Wishful thinking Wayne. I'm sure you're praying for that day to occur.



>
> The day you lose your Leibowitz's, Harkabi's and Neusner's is the
> day that Israel is going to be finished.

Wayne, I'm surprised your teacher of TM gave you such an odd mantra.
Wouldn't "Israel kaput" be easier for you to say ?

Josh
backon@VMS.HUJI.AC.IL




> ---
>  ~ OLX 3.01 31-2557 ~ state of the art cryptographic technology
> --
> Channel 1 (R)   Cambridge, MA
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: cubsfan@camelot.bradley.edu (Michael Silverman)
Subject: Re: All Arabs are guilty
Organization: Priests of the Temples of Syrinx
Date:  5 Jan 93 16:17:28 GMT

In <1483500314@igc.apc.org> cpr@igc.apc.org (Center for Policy Research) writes:


>I happen to live in Iceland, a country of 250.000 people living in an area

 ^
 ^
 ^
The "Center for Policy Research" exposed as one person!
Details at 11

This response posted by the International Organization of Politics,
Policy and All SOrts of Important and Impressive Sounding Words
and Phrases :-)

--
cubsfan@camelot.bradley.edu

"One likes to believe in the freedom of baseball" - Geddy Lee
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: chrism@cirrus.com (Chris Metcalfe)
Subject: Re: Policing the Territories
Organization: Cirrus Logic Inc.  Fremont, California
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1993 00:28:47 GMT

In article <765355d7300625t259@witsend.uucp> "D. C. Sessions" <dcs@witsend.tnet.com> writes:

>  Without agreeing about the justice of occupation *per*se*, I and
>  many others deplore the use of combat troops as policemen.  The
>  practice seriously undermines their suitability as combat troops
>  and yields less than satisfactory police work.
>
>  A good first step would be to establish a joint constabulary with
>  both Israeli and local members chartered to maintain order locally.
>  Cynics on both sides object to this, however.  One Palestinian
>  objection is based on the slippery-slope argument.  Israeli cynics
>  add a couple more: (a) the life expectancy of the Palestinian
>  'collaberators' involved would be too short to measure, and
>  (2) any community involved in such a program would become a target
>  for outsiders bent on scuttling the effort.
>
>  How many of us can agree *in*principle* that this approach would be
>  a good *first*step*?  Of those who do agree, do any of you have
>  answers to the cynical objections?
>
>--- D. C. Sessions

I believe this is called the Shamir Interim Autonomy Plan.

-- Chris Metcalfe
From: niepornt@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (David Marc Nieporent)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Israeli Expulsion of 418 Palestinians
Date: 12 Jan 93 23:22:52 GMT
Organization: Princeton University
Originator: news@nimaster

In article <1749@blue.cis.pitt.edu> rdtst+@pitt.edu (Richard D Thorne) writes:

>| On this I have to agree with Brendan.  The fact that there is a possible
>| legal loophole which permits Israel to not apply the Geneva Convention
>| does not make it (morally) right to not do so.

>| While Israel might be following the letter of the law, it is certainly
>| not following the spirit.

>     Israel's moral responsibility is to stop Hamas from killing Israelis
>     and Palestinians.  

And to protect human rights while doing so.

And I don't believe mass expulsions, without the benefit of trial,
accomplish *either* of these goals.

>			That Israel attempts to do so within the framework
>     of law is characteristic of its behavior.  The above comment is
>     complete nonsense.  The Geneva convention is a legal document therefore
>     the particulars within the document define when it should be applied.

Well, I think this is complete nonsense.  The *intent* of the Geneva
Convention was to apply to such a situation, IMO.  The fact that it was
written sloppily, leaving a loophole, wouldn't change that.  

As I said, I think Israel is operating within the letter but not spirit
of the law.

>     Some would want Israel to apply its terms in such a way that would
>     legitimize the illegal actions of Jordan in initiating hostilities and
>     protect people (Hamas) who act outside of both morality and law.  That
>     is not justice, but perversity.

I don't see how this "legitimizes the illegal actions of Jordan."  I
don't see how this has anything to do with Jordan.  This has to do with
the Palestinians living in the West Bank and Gaza.

I don't see how asking for a trial protects people who act outside of
morality/law.  I think that due process protects EVERYONE, especially
the innocent.

-- 
David M. Nieporent   | "We don't need anymore [sic] wretched refuse.  It's 
niepornt@phoenix.    |  time to send the Statue of Liberty somewhere else"
   princeton.edu     |      -- Jack "Not a bigot" Schmidling, 1/7/93
Baltimore Orioles 93 |
From: ohayon@jcpltyo.JCPL.CO.JP (Tsiel Ohayon)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Terrorism
Date: 12 Jan 93 23:31:57 GMT
Organization: James Capel Pacific Limited, Tokyo Japan

In article <1993Jan12.075004.25608@nuscc.nus.sg> RAM VIKASH TIWARY writes:

[RVT] TERRORISM is the use of random violence against non-combatants
[RVT] or soldiers in peace time.  
Is Israel at war? It is true there is no peace between the parties, but
there is no war.

[RVT] The action leading to death or injury is carried out inspite of 
[RVT] peaceful options by groups of extremists seeking to subvert the 
[RVT] political establishment.

[RVT] I would not for example regard PLO actions against Israeli
[RVT] soldiers  as terrorism for the
[RVT] simple reason that the Palestinians have no peaceful options to opose
[RVT] Isreal. The same is not true for the IRA. 

What about negotitations. For 43 years the Arabs had refused any type of
negotitation with Israel. The pride and stupidity of their leaders always
impeached upon reaching a negotiated settlement.

One morning the elegant looking Arafat wakes up from his coma and says that
he wants peace. If he thinks because he has sat down with the "horrible 
zionist entity" that all is due to him in 10 minutes, well he is wrong.
I hear the PLO is urging the Arabs to pull out of the peace process 
over the deportees affair. Well it is really easy for some guy sitting in a 
nice villa in Tunis to order such a stupid move. The Arabs have all to lose 
by pulling out. Israel has the land and without negotitations it will not give 
back a cm of it. Egypt sat down with Israel, and the Sinai was returned. The 
other Arabs should take example. Syria on the other hand is urging Arabs not 
to pull out.

If the PLO is going to put on hold the peace process because of 400+ people,
then we can say that these deportees are being used as hostages against their
own people! It is more important to settle something for 1.5 mil. than for
those 415 "poor men" which nobody wants anyways.


Tsiel



-- 
----8<--------------------------------------------------------------->8------
Tsiel:ohayon@jcpl.co.jp	   | If you do not receive this E-mail, please let me
Employer may not have same | know as soon as possible, if possible.
opinions, if any !         | Two percent of zero is almost nothing.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: aberman@cs.washington.edu (Andrew Berman)
Subject: Re: News from the occupied West Bank and Gaza Strip.
Organization: Computer Science & Engineering, U. of Washington, Seattle
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 93 18:43:51 GMT

In article <29915@castle.ed.ac.uk> jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk (Jeremy Henderson) writes:

>~Or maybe ask the arabs to stop sending small children to the streets to throw
>~stones.
>~
>
>Assuming, for the sake of argument, that your supposition is correct, it
>is strange that Israeli response to child abuse is to shoot the victims,
>rather than punish the abusers.

Uh, the Israeli response to child abuse is to arrest the abusers when
evidence exists.

The Israeli response to having stones thrown at them in a riot is to
break up the riot.  That the stones thrown are a result of child abuse
is secondary at this point.

The Israeli soldier reponse to a clear threat (i.e., someone running at you)
	1) Yell (in Arabic) that the offender should halt.
	2) Yell again in Arabic.
	3) Yell a third time.
	4) Shoot in the air.
	5) Shoot at the ground.
	6) Shoot at the legs.
	7) Shoot at the body.

This, by the way, comes from an Israeli soldier friend of mine who's
friend was recently killed. I don't know which step he had
reached when he was killed.

It might be interesting to publish the standard American or British
police or military response to someone running at them.  The French
response to a truck coming towards them in Somalia was to shoot up
the truck, killing several occupants.  I heard no great outcry
here about that.

I also heard no great outcry when a Montana teenager was sent to 30 years
in prison for throwing stones at passing cars.   But I digress..


>-- 
>===Jeremy Henderson===jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk=          
>
>This message cost the net hundreds if not thousands of dollars.
>Bloody good value if you ask me.


Agreed.

Andrew P. Berman
-- 
Andrew P. Berman           |  "I have no idea what White House statement was
Dept. of Computer Science  |  was issued, but I stand by it 100 percent"
University of Washington   |    -- Richard Darman
aberman@cs.washington.edu  |
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Deportation vs. Murder
From: clamen+@CS.CMU.EDU (Stewart Clamen)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 04:56:52 GMT
Reply-To: clamen+@CS.CMU.EDU
 90629.19897@das.harvard.edu> <1ifungINNouq@life.ai.mit.edu>
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon University
Originator: clamen@BYRON.SP.CS.CMU.EDU

In article <1ifungINNouq@life.ai.mit.edu> gwydion@hal.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Mercenary Programmer) writes:

   In article <1993Jan6.190629.19897@das.harvard.edu> adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack) writes:

   >A word's meaning is defined by how it is coined and used, not how its
   >roots define it.  "Inflammable" does not mean "not flammable", nor
   >does "sycophant" imply a fruit seller (sukon - fig, phantes - to
   >show).  "Anti-Semite" was coined and has always been understood to
   >mean "Anti-Jew".

   Not by the majority of the Semites.  Interesting this fact, no?

English is an equal opportunity language.  If the word is generalized
in print to mean "prejudice against any Semite" enough times, then its
definition will eventually change.  By example, the word "awful" once
had a meaning similar to the more modern word "awesome".  It was used
ironically enough times to have its meaning reversed.

Of course, antisemitism is also a word in French and German, so your
work is cut out for you.


--
Stewart M. Clamen			Internet:    clamen@cs.cmu.edu
School of Computer Science		UUCP: 	     uunet!"clamen@cs.cmu.edu"
Carnegie Mellon University		Phone: 	     +1 412 268 2145
5000 Forbes Avenue			Fax:	     +1 412 681 5739
Pittsburgh, PA 15213-3891, USA
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (Eric S. Perlman)
Subject: Re: Leaving
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 22:53:56 GMT

Though John Elghani and I have disputed many points over the net, and
often disagreed bitterly, all but literally being at each others'
threats, I wish him all the best of luck.  Congratulations on your
marriage, John, and good luck on your return home to Lebanon.

-- 
"How sad to see/A model of decorum and tranquillity/become like any other sport
A battleground for rival ideologies to slug it out with glee." -Tim Rice,"Chess"
     Eric S. Perlman 				 <perlman@qso.colorado.edu> 
  Center for Astrophysics and Space Astronomy, University of Colorado, Boulder
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com>
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: israeli lobby
Date: 8 Jan 93 10:04:30 EST
Reply-To: "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com>
Distribution: talk
Organization: Channel 1 Communications

To: Michael Silverman

 MS> Just what powerful "Israel lobby" thinks Warren Christopher
 MS> is anti Israel?

 MS> Definitely not AIPAC...do you know of any other "pwerful
 MS> pro-Israel" lobbies?

<knotes>

<o>#clip

<des>

     Secretary of State-designate Warren Christopher tries to
     defuse tension with heads of the Israeli lobby (New York
     Times 1/7/93)

<doctype>newspaper article
<author>Special to The New York Times
<title>Christopher Meets Heads of Jewish Groups
<newspaper>The New York Times
<date>January 7, 1993
<pages>A18
<dateline>Little Rock, Ark., Jan. 6

<body>

     Secretary of State-designate Warren M. Christopher met today
     with representatives of several major Jewish organizations
     to defuse tensions between Jewish groups and the new Clinton
     Administration.

     The meeting, held in the office of Senator Joseph I.
     Lieberman, Democrat of Connecticut, was attended by Mr.
     Christopher; Lester Pollack, chairman of the Conference of
     Presidents of Major American Jewish Organizations; Monte
     Friedkin, vice president of the American Israel Public
     Affairs Committee, the leading pro-Israeli lobby, and
     Elizabeth Schrayer, the lobby's political director.

     Some of the organizations had been expressing concerns about
     Mr. Clinton's choices for top foreign policy jobs. They
     feared that these veterans of the Carter Administration
     might not be inclined to carry out the pro-Israel policies
     Mr. Clinton espoused during the campaign.

     Mr. Christopher, who was Deputy Secretary of State in the
     Carter Administration, played no major role in its policy
     and has no record of antipathy to any of the parties to the
     Arab-Israel conflict.

</o>
---
  OLX 3.01 31-2557  You know what I'm saying?
--
Channel 1 (R)   Cambridge, MA
From: jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk (Jeremy Henderson)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Deportation of Palestinians
Date: 8 Jan 93 15:22:08 GMT
Organization: Edinburgh University

In article <1993Jan7.203812.7044@nysernet.org> astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein) writes:
~zmbenhal@netcom.com (Zeyd M. Ben-Halim) writes:
~Ah, the old blame the victim trick.
~

The Israelis are the victims? Yeah, right.





-- 
===Jeremy Henderson===jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk=          

This message cost the net hundreds if not thousands of dollars.
Bloody good value if you ask me.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: bob1@cos.com (Bob Blackshaw)
Subject: Re: Minorities in Lebanon
Organization: Corporation for Open Systems
Distribution: world 
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 20:31:38 GMT

In <43374@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> revans@euclid.ucsd.edu (Ron Evans) writes:

><1993Jan12.053544.18884@mcs.kent.edu> rayes@Goat.mcs.kent.edu (Sandra Rayes):

[ deletia ]

>>BTW, I know one of those who you would call a Kurd (her name
>>is definately non-Arabic in origin), but she will be the first to tell
>>you she is an Arab.  
>>Sandra.

I wonder why she would, seems to me that the Arab countries, and Turkey, etc.
have done nothing but s**t on the Kurdish peoples every cahnce they get.

>	I'm sorry, but the Kurdish ethnicity is definitely
>	non-Arab.  It is close to Iranian.

>-- 
>Ron Evans (revans@math.ucsd.edu)

REB

Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:25122 soc.culture.turkish:14069 soc.culture.soviet:12010
From: bv652@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ilan Uri Woll)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.turkish,soc.culture.soviet
Subject: Re: "Zeleny"s Armenian friend.
Date: 11 Jan 1993 06:09:16 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: bv652@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ilan Uri Woll)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, zeleny@husc10.harvard.edu (Mikhail Zeleny) says:

>In article <9301101921@zuma.UUCP> 
>sera@zuma.UUCP (The Ghost of Serdar Argic) writes:
>
>>In article <1993Jan10.170800.19167@husc3.harvard.edu>
>>zeleny@husc10.harvard.edu (Mikhail Zeleny) writes:
>
>MZ:
>>>>>B.C.E.  To cite an Armenian friend of mine, at the time our ancestors
>>>>>built their temples, the ancestors of the Slavs were sitting in the
>>>>>trees, and spitting at each other.  Of course, he said it in Russian.
>
>SA:
>>>>It boggles the mind, doesn't it? 
>
>MZ:
>>>Not really.  I believe that the only reason he did not say the same
>>>thing about the ancestors of the Turks, is because they had descended
>>>from the trees, if only to cornhole each other.  I refer the literate
>>>members (ho hum) of my audience to T.E.Lawrence's account of the
>>>preponderance of anal venereal infections among the captured Turkish
>>>soldiers.
>
>SA:
>>And one quick glance confirmed my worst expectations. The small creature
>>is alive and looks for adventure. Your anti-Turkish propaganda is nothing 
>>but the typical misleading and unending Armenian cry bent upon the immense 
>>of little boys trying to wear boots too large for their size.
>
>Aww, you're just jealous 'cause they won't have anything to do with
>your long-suffering syphilitic butt

it's great to know I'm not the only one pissing off Mutlu's ghost.

HE'S DEAD JIM.  HAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHA!

ILAN URI WOLL
-- 
---  !      ^    !\  !
 !   !     /-\   ! \ !
___  !__  /   \  !  \!  
                        Avoid cliches like the plague" George Shaw
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: michaelp@ifi.uio.no (Michael Schalom Preminger)
Subject: Re: Israeli Nazism?  (Arabs killing Arabs)
Organization: Dept. of Informatics, University of Oslo, Norway
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 13:13:15 GMT
Originator: michaelp@svartor.ifi.uio.no


In article <29920@castle.ed.ac.uk>, jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk (Jeremy Henderson) writes:
> In article <1993Jan6.014248.10027@newshub.ccs.yorku.ca> wc4209@writer.yorku.ca (Irene Berkovich) writes:
> ~In article <C0EAKH.sI@techbook.com> gummitch@techbook.com (Jeff Frane) writes:
> 
> ~      Syria's Hafez Assad ordered the massacre of approximately 10,000
> ~to 20,000 fellow Arabs in the city of Hama in around 1980.  I believe
> ~this town was an active Moslem Brotherhood area.  They would be quite
> ~similar in philosophy to the Hamas members that Israel recently
> ~expelled (note expelled, not butchered like in Syria).
> 
> I used to be under the impression that Israel aspires to be a civilised
> democracy in the "western" sense. Now it is clear that as long as the 
> Israeli regime is less brutal than that in say, Syria, or Iraq, or other
> cradles of gentleness, that's ok. Why not try setting your sights just a
> tiny bit higher?
> 
> 
Mr. Henderson:

Do you require a different standard of humanity from israel than that
you do from its neighbours?

If the answer is "YES": could you elaborate a little bit on it?

Thanks

> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> ===Jeremy Henderson===jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk=          
> 
> This message cost the net hundreds if not thousands of dollars.
> Bloody good value if you ask me.

Michael
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:24779 alt.revisionism:872 soc.history:10562
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,alt.revisionism,soc.history
Followup-To: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: Re: LEST WE FORGET: Filip Muller's Testimony (Auschwitz)
Date: Tue, 05 Jan 93 20:18:59 EST
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world

In article <1993Jan05.130104.24526@oneb.almanac.bc.ca> kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay) writes:

>From the testimony of Filip Muller, an Auschwitz survivor, Konnilyn Feig
>reports the following account in "Hitler's Death Camps": 
>  Filip Muller, a young Slovakian, arrived early in Auschwitz -- April
>1942 -- and survived!  He did so, however, because of his forced work
>assignment as a stoker in the Auschwitz crematorium and then as a jack-of-
>all-trades in the Birkenau extermination plant squad, the Sonderkommando.

And so it has been to this day. In fact, by 1942, Nazi Armenians in 
Europe had established a vast network of pro-German collaborators, 
that extended over two continents. Thousands of Armenians were serving 
the German army and Waffen-SS in Russia and Western Europe. Armenians
were involved in espionage and fifth-column activities for Hitler
in the Balkans and Arabian Peninsula. They were promised an 'independent'
state under German 'protection' in an agreement signed by the 'Armenian
National Council.' (A copy of this agreement can be found in the
'Congressional Record,' November 1, 1945; see Document 1.) On this 
side of the Atlantic, Nazi Armenians were aware of their brethrens alliance. 
They had often expressed pro-Nazi sentiments until America entered the 
war.

While having collaborated with the Nazis against Stalin during the
Second World War, Nazi Armenians changed their policy after Hitler's
defeat. They now backed Stalin's claims on Eastern Turkish provinces,
hoping that these would be annexed to Soviet Armenia and their Muslim 
population would be exterminated. Stalin played on Armenian national
sentiments to enlist the support of Armenians in the USSR and America
for his imperial ambitions.[1] Stalin's ultimatum to the Turkish
government led Truman to formulate his famous Doctrine.

[1] Walter Kolarz, 'Religion in the Soviet Union,' (London, Macmillan &
    Co Ltd; New York, St Martin's Press 1961), pp. 160-164.


Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.'    (Sahak Melkonian)

Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:25249 soc.culture.greek:12186 soc.culture.soviet:12089 soc.culture.turkish:14180