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Date:         Fri, 14 Aug 1992 15:58:26 -0400
From:         AHMED@DAYTON.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Bosnia/Somalia

I forgot who its is that explored all the different avenues and what
can happen if we try to escort food in, what will happen if we invade
and so on.....

Again also mentioning the BS sprouted by those that it compares with
Vietnam....

Lets face it....it cannot be Vietnam...North Vietnam was supported and
supplied by two major superpowers, Russia and China.... Who do the
Serbs have....

At least try something.....bomb some positions for a few days and see
what happens.....  We can always return to the DO NOTHING position we
are currently in....

But Ofcourse,  we don't have any economic interests and unless corporate
America is interested we never do anything.....

zahir
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From: ak743@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Doretta Hanschka)
Subject: Re: Voting
Reply-To: ak743@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Doretta Hanschka)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 92 05:30:39 GMT


In a previous article, DMARTIN@WCU.BITNET () says:

>      I'm with you, my friend.  I have been the recipient of much criticism
> because I have never voted and, in fact, I am not registered to vote.  It is
> not that I don't want to vote, I would like very much to take part in the
> voting process.  In fact, I am seriously considering voting this election,
> however, what are my options?  I don't think that Bush should stay in office
> any longer and although I like Clinton, there are some fundamental issues that
> I differ with him and I don't know that I could vote for him with a clear
> conscience.  So what options does that leave me?
	Well, if we all voted our consciences instead of just for the 
big party candidates, we might get somewhere.  Personally, I've been registered
to vote since the age of 18, and have voted in every election since.  It's
been a case of voting against, rather than for, in most cases though.  In
this election, if Morris the Cat were a candidate, I'd be voting for him.:-)
I don't like Bush much at all, but Clinton frankly scares me.  

>
> YES, for national health insurance.  YES, for gun control.  YES, for no
> PAC's.  While I hadn't considered it before, perhaps I can say with
I'm neutral on National Health - it might create as many problems as it 
solves, or so say my British and Canadian friends.  Gun control I definitely
don't like, at least not the way the government has been going about it.

My house was broken into a few nights ago, and a pair of antique handguns
were stolen.  They were legally bought, and had not been fired in over
a century.  Now, at least one of them may be used in a robbery or robbery
attempt, but not by the person who obtained the guns legally.  They
gathered dust for over 25 years, and never hurt anyone, and now a criminal
has them.  It's not the people who obtain guns legally that we have to worry
about.:-(  Those who obtain guns illegally don't pay much attention to the 
control laws anyway.  

As for PACs, I'm with you.:-)  The fewer, the better.   All that special
interest money does is screw things up for the rest of us who have to live
in this country.

> Gretchen that I am at least a little bit socialist.
	Looks like.:-)  I'm not sure what they call me, except crazy.

-- 
Nethead, aka the Ruth Hanschka, hath enscribed herein, a message
	ap290 and ak743 , both of the Cleveland Freenet
			Here Be Dragons
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Date:         Fri, 14 Aug 1992 16:02:51 CDT
From:         "Patrick Christian" <AEZPATR@UICVMC.BITNET>
Subject:      Bosnia

 Mustafa

 You bring up some good points.  My mentioning of the Nazis was in relationship
 to World War II history.  It was not my intention to demonize any side in this
 conflict, it's just a fact that the Nazis occupied Yugoslavia with 37 divisions
 and the Yugoslavs successfully repelled them. There was great cost, but they
 did so.

 As for the Unites States not being willing to defend Muslims, I would
 respectfully remind you that the United States recently defended Saudi Arabian
 and Kuwaite Muslims (not to mention Iraqi Muslims during the Iraqi
 occupation in the south and north).

 I'm not saying that nothing should be done.  What I am saying is that care and
 thought is needed before action is taken.  This is not a simple situation, and
 again I would respectfully remind you that World War 1 started in that area of
 the world.  Looking at the map, it's not hard to see how another world war
 might start.  I think the world leader need to keep this in mind.
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Date:         Wed, 19 Aug 1992 22:16:04 EDT
From:         Joyce Neu <CCJN@EMUVM1.BITNET>
Subject:      CULTURE AND VOTING

   I note that United States folks have been the main (only?) participants
in the voting discussion.  Can we open this up a bit perhaps by finding
out from people on the list 1) whether all people in each country
represented on this list have the right to vote; 2) whether people
do vote and to what extent (e.g., as we've been saying, fewer than
50% of Americans vote in non-Presidential elections and only slightly
more in Pres'l elections); 3) when the right to vote was won and by
whom (men, women, minority groups, etc.); and 4) peoples' attitudes
towards the effect of voting on the society in which they live.

(Note: I'm attaching a list of the countries represented on XCULT-L
as of today.)

*  Country        Subscribers
*  -------        -----------
*  ??                 1
*  Australia          1
*  Austria            1
*  Brazil             4
*  Canada             7
*  Costa Rica         1
*  Denmark            1
*  Egypt              4
*  Finland            1
*  France             3
*  Germany            6
*  Japan              2
*  Mexico             1
*  Poland             1
*  Portugal           1
*  Saudi-Arabia      11
*  Singapore          1
*  Sweden             1
*  Taiwan             1
*  Turkey             1
*  United Kingdom     4
*  USA              187
*
* Total number of countries represented:          22  (non-"concealed" only)
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Date:         Fri, 14 Aug 1992 08:54:36 -0400
From:         AHMED@DAYTON.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Somalia/Bosnia

Dear Phil:

First, Bad Amerikan Gov't is not the same as Bad American people because
the gov't is not for the people, by the people etc..

I am an American and do love Americans.....The Gov't is not mine and
its bad!

Second, The UN IS THE US....because NOTHING can pass in the UN without
American approval (and everything can pass regardless of the objections
of anyone of 98% of the countries in the UN).

Third, I think if the American Gov't was honest enough to say that we
intervene WHEREVER WE PLEASE AND OUR BASIS OF INTERVENTION IS OUR
ECONOMIC (WHEN i SAY OUR IT MEANS OUR CORPORATE INTERESTS) INTERESTS
then they may not be liked but they will be respected.  As it is,
Amerika (the K is for gov't) is criticized because it supports
dictators while claiming they want to democracize the world, they claim
they want to protect human rights while they look the other way when it
occurs in countries that are subservient to them ....  If human rights
and not economics were the issue, Somalia and Bosnia would come before
Kuwait....

zahir
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Date:         Mon, 17 Aug 1992 10:13:44 -0400
From:         AHMED@DAYTON.BITNET

Mustafa,

I also do not truly believe that inaction is because of religion or
race....I think these are secondary factors that coincide with attitudes..

I think decisions are made because of economics first and political
power/positives....

Since there is no economic benefit (like with Kuwait) lets hope there
is political positives and Bush will do something because he may
increase his political popularity by intervening.... I am afraid he
sees more political benefits from creating incidents in Iraq and
finding an excuse to bomb Iraq before election day...

zahir
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Date:         Wed, 12 Aug 1992 10:45:00 EDT
From:         PXT6600@ROSEDALE.BITNET
Subject:      Cultural differences

There has been a lot of negative steerotyping of both Americans and Asians
lately. Someone put it quite well when she said that populations cannot be
"described by one set of adjectives." The "good the bad and the ugly" exist
in every culutre, whether it be in it's people, it's cultural traits or in
it's politics. Differences do exist. Generalising populations can be very
dangerous, because generalising is the very essence from which racism arises.

The East and the West do differ in the way they view individuality, freedom
and education. These views have evolved over time based on a need. Not every
set of values can be universally applied. When you or your family are
struggling to put food in your mouth, it is often a hollow value to put much
emphasis on individuality and the right of every individual to do whatever his
or her fancy is. The bottom line is this. At the end of the day there must be
some way of putting food on the table. In economies where 50 or more percent
of the population is struggling to meet this basic requirement, there is
little room for experimentation and failure.

Someone mentioned the suicide of an Asian student. But, is America free of
the problem of teen suicide? The reasons may be different, but the end problem
is the same. In the east, parental pressure may be a cause. But in the
West, it is other social pressures.

And I have seen it often repeated that Eastern culutres sacrifice the
good of the one for the good of the society. Yes this is true. BUT I WOULD
NOT HAVE IT ANY OTHER WAY. I can have all the money in the world and all
the achievements to make me proud, but if I don't have someone to share
it with, I'm a poor man indeed.

Probal Tahbidar
and as will be evidenced from my message, I come from the East.
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Date:         Mon, 17 Aug 1992 13:15:20 -0400
From:         AHMED@DAYTON.BITNET
Subject:      Voting

Emmy,

Thank you for your response.  I am sorry for upsetting you...

I am an Immigrant and for the last 17 years an American...  I do love this
country and am VERY patriotic....

My non voting is not apathy, its a conscious decision....  At a personal
level, in personal interaction, we call people who continue to participate
as "enablers".....  At the political level, its the same in my opinion...

I don't like Bush....  Back when I first came here and even before becoming
a citizen...I tried my best tp participate and did a lot of volunteering
for George McGovern....  He was a great man but it, the process, was
disillusioning...  I also found in Jimmy Carter, a man of substance and
integrity, could really bring about little change.....

I envy you and those who can still get charged up about these elections..If
I thought Clinton could bring about change, I would perhaps consider voting..
though I doubt if he would even come close to winning...

What can I vote for ?  How will my vote for Clinton or Bush make any real
difference...  Do I believe there will be fewer homeless, National Health
Insurance, Gun Control with either of them?

I don't like Ross Perot....but perhaps he or someone who had very little
for the constitution came to be president and did a major screw up, things
might change....

I know you like to believe otherwise..... Atleast the Russians knew when their
system failed.... ours failed a long time ago...  Still its the greatness of
the people and the great heroes of the past that makes this country still so
great .....

American leaders (pre 1960) came from strength of character, now they come
from strength of personality.....  Lincoln would not stand a chance...

zahir
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Date:         Mon, 17 Aug 1992 15:06:41 -0400
From:         AHMED@DAYTON.BITNET
Subject:      Re: USA or United Nations

Dear Probal,

Thanks for the support regarding UN actions.....

Its really unfortunate that criticizing the American Gov't is taken by a
few as anti-Americanism...  Goes to show the power of the media...

As an aside, we are not done with Iraq yet....  Much as I personally
dislike the current president, I hope he catches up with Clinton in the
Polls.....if at the end of the republican convention this week, the polls
still show Bush behind, I would bet we will get into militiary action
and drop some bombs on Iraq....

zahir
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From: ap290@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ruth M. Hanschka)
Subject: Re: SORRY!
Reply-To: ap290@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ruth M. Hanschka)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 92 04:37:24 GMT


In a previous article, CCJN@EMUVM1.BITNET (Joyce Neu) says:

>My apologies--I think that for the umpteenth time since I've been on
>this most inelegant EMUVM1 system that rather than reply to 1 person
>as intended, I replied to the whole list.  So sorry, and thanks for
>your patience.  Have I said anything terribly embarrassing yet that's
>gone out to 3,000 people?  Wait long enough, and I probably will.
>Color this face red.

Joyce - Don't worry about it.  If you can get it via Usenet, read Words-l
for a while.  I say via Usenet because the mail volume on that list is, to
grossly understate, large.  During the school year it can run over 200 
messages a day.  At any rate, the list has seen several very private, highly
embarassing love notes and other correspondence go public when the reply
was meant to be *very* private.  You didn't say anything to blush over.:-)
At least, not compared to some....  If you were to read Words for a while,
you would see what the term e-oops really means.(-8


-- 
It's Ruth the NetHead, back from the [virtual] dead
	- ap290@cleveland.freenet.edu
fighting for truth, justice and static-free lines
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Date:         Mon, 17 Aug 1992 10:54:21 EDT
From:         "Gerald K. Wuori" <WUORI@MAINE.BITNET>
Subject:      Peace, folks

I think it's fascinating that a network whose sole purpose is
to further international understanding through discussion has
given rise to such rabid anti-Americanism.  Perhaps it would be
a good idea to stop the attacks and just raise the issues.
Attacks just provoke further attacks and if you don't understand
that then you've not been watching the news for the last few
decades.  Judging from some of the comments made lately, you
would think that every international in the U.S. is bogged down
in misery and despair.  And I know that that is not true.  Any-
one want to share some views on humor in other parts of the world?
Jerry Wuori, University of Maine at Presque Isle
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.xcult-l
Date:         Mon, 17 Aug 1992 11:41:17 EDT
From:         Mary Ellen Ugactz-Fernandez <ugactz@CUNIXF.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU>

Zahir:

It's such a shame that this country has opened it's doors to people who
want to reap the benefits it provides but don't want to participate. I
find that pitiful. This is more pitiful than the voter who doesn't vote
because they are ignorant, or feel somewhat diempowered because of the
media's tendency to predict winners before the polls have closed...

Your generalizations are so wide spanning that they can not be dealt
with coherntlyDFDiq5If immigrants would participate more than maybe
they will someday see a presdient of their own , as head of the united
states... I know that some immigrants see this country as their own and
do fully participate while others live off of the united states... they
do business here but do not participate politically... for those that
do no t participate like yourself, because of far reaching criticisms,
well, I cann only say I feel sorry for you. You will never change
anything...

You may think there is only one party..that's fine with me.. and I do
believe those who vote , if not more patriotic, are more informed - we
know the only way to get things done is to do...not to complain, like
most of you...

Yes, we have the lowest voter turn-out, but we also have the lowest
voter mortality rate, and a media system that tracks who is ahead
before some people get to the polls. Our system is not perfect, but we
strive to improve it....

Hey, this is a free country as we say, think what you like... I know we
are a great country, we have helped other nations and tried to aid
developing countries..we aren't perfect and make mistakes, and
sometimes we are lead astray by certain leaders like Bush, who do a lot
of armwrestling with other leaders. But I don't see anyone else trying
to keep the world in order.

Bush is an idiot and no, I didn't vote for him...and I will try voting
him out. Someimes, presidents do stupid things... I can't take the rap
for his dumb mistakes...

I don't know whta to tell you Zahir.  Except you are at a dead end road
with your kind of thinking.

/Emmy
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Date:         Tue, 18 Aug 1992 13:28:42 -0400
From:         AHMED@DAYTON.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Voting

Emmy,

Take a deep breath and relax.... you might convince me to your point of
view....   Can't let differences in opinion upset us so much....  for
a while, perhaps sticking to humor might be a good idea...

Sometimes I think I have become toomuch of a cynic and too laid back...Its
possible that some of the passion and the hope might rub off on me... I
miss some of it from back when I was hoping for George McGovern and
later for Jimmy Carter to a lessor extent....

Once again, I apologise...

zahir
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Date:         Tue, 18 Aug 1992 16:03:34 EST
From:         Deborah Martin <DMARTIN@WCU.BITNET>
Subject:      RE: Peace and Personal Attacks

 MGARBER asks what tones are objectionable and what action should be taken.

 First of all, the tones that I found objectionable were those responses
 dripping with sarcasm and with pointed remarks concerning a person's ability
 to make intelligent decisions, etc...  I have probably close to a dozen
 quotes that I could use to support this but I choose not to point a finger,
 only to create an awareness.  I understand that these have been some
 discussions that draw emotional responses from people.  It is always
 acceptable to disagree with someone but it is not acceptable to put them down
 for not believing the same thing that you do.  I try not to do this and if I
 have I want to apologize now.  However, if I wanted to hear the criticisms
 that have been directed at several individuals lately, I can go listen to the
 politicians.  I would have hoped that this kind of talk would not be found on
 this list.  It may be that these indiviuduals who took the brunt of these
 attacks have not allowed it to bother them.  I would like to point out that
 the message that I received from Oliver when I subscribed to this list
 contains the following passage:

 >5.  Subscribers who engage in name-calling, racial/ethnic/linguistic/
 >religious, or other slurs will be asked to sign off the list.

 While the previous attacks may not quite fit into the above category, I
 should think that they are at the least borderline.  It was not my intention
 to imply that these individuals don't have something to contribute to the
 list, only that they might give more consideration to how they express
 themselves.  So, I will have to say that if these attacks were to continue
 I would feel it necessary to appeal to Oliver for a ruling.  If unsuccessful
 in this appeal, I would find it necessary for me personally to sign off
 this list.

 Humbly submitted by,

 Deborah
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Date:         Mon, 17 Aug 1992 13:23:30 -0400
From:         AHMED@DAYTON.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Somalia/Bosnia or UN and US politics

Phil,

I don't know if you know it, but even if ALL the rest of the nations
of the world in the UN wanted to take any action against the USA or
against China, they cannot do it......

Regarding your statement that not every nation should have the same
voting power because the population size varies, remember that India
has 3 times the population (China 4 times) the population of the U.S.
and has less power...USA is immune, it can veto any action of the UN,
India cannot...

Finally, I wish Quayle was running for president....him, I would vote for.
We need someone like that to be able to show how the system is screwed up.

zahir
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Date:         Mon, 17 Aug 1992 11:24:11 CDT
From:         "Mustafa AlAbsi 270-0510 Student Psychiatry"
              <u717@REX.UOKHSC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Bosnia
X-To:         XCULT-L%PSUVM.BitNet@pucc.PRINCETON.EDU

Patrick,
Allow me to remind you that what the US did in Saudia Arabia is pure
economics and politics.  Let us be serious and honest here.  They did
not go to Saudia Arabia to defend "Freedom".  Ha.. Ha.. They went to
secure the source of oil to this country.  Everybody knows that.  So,
muslism did not have anything to do with that war.  In fact, Muslism
were completely
againt it.  Do not forget that about 300,000 muslims died in that war.\
Is it difficult to realize the dirty politics or are we all that blind?
Mustafa
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