HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: dlhpfm!dlh@ncoast.org (daniel lance herrick)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: defining fundamentalism
Date: 4 Sep 92 07:04:17 GMT
Organization: dlh Performance Marketing

sjreeves@eng.auburn.edu (Stan Reeves) writes:

> One only has to read the Baptist Confession to see how far Baptists as a
> whole have drifted from their historical doctrinal roots.  Most of the 
> contents of the Confession would be completely foreign to the typical 
> Baptist (fundamentalist or otherwise) today.

I had a copy of The Baptist Confession of 1689 in my hands last night. 
I was quite surprized at who showed it to me.  I immediately flipped it
open and read aloud about the decrees of God.  Essentially the same
declaration as the Shorter Chatechism, God's eternal decrees account
for every detail of everything that will happen.  No shying away from
Romans 9 by those Baptists.

That was chapter 3.  Chapter 9 was titled Free Will and says that God's
eternal decree determining every detail in no way detracts from man's
free and independent choice and man's responsibility for the
consequences of those choices.

It was a 300th anniversary edition prepared by the current pastor of
Charles Haddon Spurgeon's church.  An earlier edition (around 1835) was
published by that church under Spurgeon's stewardship, primarily for
distribution to the congregation of that church.  This story shortens
the timetable for the drift from their roots.

dan
From: ncramer@bbn.com (Nichael Cramer)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Qumran finding
Date: 1 Sep 92 07:12:31 GMT
Reply-To: ncramer@labs-n.bbn.com (Nichael Cramer)
Organization: Bolt Beranek and Newman Inc., Interzone Office

Ken <miner@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu> cites a review by Charles A. Coulombe:
> [Commenting on the claim that a very early fragment from the gosples
>  had been found] Giuseppe Cardinal Saldanini said on January 16 of
>this year that "this find...sustains the Christian stance that does
>not separate the Christ of Faith from the historical Jesus.  What
>it does is [affirm] that Jesus of Nazareth is none other than the
>Christ of faith and the true Son of God." ...

In a seperate message I discussed the (lack of) evidence for this claim,
however, I'd also like to briefly comment on the statement above which I
would like to nominate for the S.R.C. Non-Sequitur of the Year Award.

Even if we concede the --highly unlikely-- point that these claims are true
the question remains: In what way does the date at which a given book was
written affect the ultimately validity of these issues, in any meaningful
sense?

Simply consider the converse statement.  If the later (and much more
likely) dates for the origin of the Gospels are correct, does this
_disprove_ the validity of this "Christian stance"?

Indeed, what _could_ this disprove, other than that a certain, overly
narrow literalist view of the origins of the Gospels is incorrect?

N
From: jte@psi.com (John Eldredge)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: What is essential ?
Date: 30 Aug 92 07:23:52 GMT
Organization: Performance Systems International, Inc. Reston Virginia.

In an effort to zero in on this question, can I offer a three-point
outline?  (If you can forgive my alliteration :^)

1.  The Provision 

    God the Son died for our sins and was raised from the dead.

    "By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached 
    to you.  Otherwise, you have believed in vain.  For what I received I 
    passed on to you as of first importance:  that Christ died for our sins
    according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on 
    the third day according to the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Peter,
    and then to the Twelve."  II Corinthians 15:2-5) 

    (see also John 1; Romans 3; II Cor 5).

2.  The Promise

    God the Father promises that "God so loved the world that he gave his only-
    begotten son, that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have 
    everlasting life." (John 3:16

3.  The Prosecutor

    God the Holy Spirit "convinces" us of "Sin, righteousness and judgement."
    (John 16:8-11)

John
From: ncramer@bbn.com (Nichael Cramer)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: The Syrian/Byzantine Text and the Johannean Comma [was: 1 John 5: 6-8]
Date: 26 Aug 92 05:43:02 GMT
Reply-To: ncramer@labs-n.bbn.com (Nichael Cramer)
Organization: Bolt Beranek and Newman Inc., Interzone Office

Steve.Hayes@p5.f22.n7101.z5.fidonet.org (Steve Hayes) writes:
> ... By the end of the third century the scriptures 
>had been translated into three vernacular (Coptic) languages. Many of the 
>leaders were from the native rather than the Hellenistic population. The 
>monastic movement was a native African one, and people like St Anthony had to 
>have an interpreter because they could not speak Greek. St Athanasius was 
>bilingual, but Coptic was almost certainly his native language [...]

> [...]
> NC>Utter, absolute, nonsense.
>Not at all. I don't know what was omitted in the [...], but many, if not most 
>Egyptian Christians did not speak Greek as their native tongue, just as they 
>don't today. Undoubtedly there WERE Greek-speaking Christians, but a fairly 
>large proportion of the Greek-speaking population remained pagan for quite long 
>a time.

Perhaps I wasn't clear in my point, but we seem to be discussing somewhat
different issues.

I certainly was not suggesting that there were not other, ancient
translations of the NT (indeed I referred to these ancient version
elsewhere in this discussion).  Rather I was disputing the original
poster's assertion that the non-Syrian/Byzantine families of _Greek_ texts
--particularly the Alexandrian Family-- were the result of "translation"
into radically different dialects of Greek and that this "translation" was
done by non-native Greek speakers.  It was this position that I pointed out
as nonsense.

Now, it may be true that the scribes in Alexandria added a more literary
edge to certain of the readings as they made their copies of the texts.
However it seems more likely that reverse was closer to the norm (i.e. that
the originators of the Syrian text "smoothed out" the earlier text and
added Koine-isms as they worked in and around Antioch).

Likewise, it would be absurd to suggest that there were no non-Greek
speakers around.  But while St Anthony and others may not have spoke Greek,
neither were they the ones responsible for the transmission of the Greek
Text (as the original poster suggested).

NICHAEL  
nichael@bbn.com  --                Bush/Gorbachev: One Down, One to Go
From: jhpb@sarto.budd-lake.nj.us (Joseph H. Buehler)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Infallibility
Date: 30 Aug 92 07:13:16 GMT
Organization: none

In article <Aug.26.02.18.53.1992.8052@athos.rutgers.edu> Steve.Hayes@p5.f22.n7101.z5.fidonet.org (Steve Hayes) writes:

   I think that several things that became popular in the Church around his time 
   were encouraged with a view to anti-Arian propaganda. The celebration of 
   Christmas, for one thing. It's one of the things that the Jehovah's Witnesses 
   (as modern-day Arians) are utterly opposed to. 

   Another is the final blessing at the end of the Divine Liturgy, "through the 
   prayers of... the holy and righteous ancestors of God, Joachim and Anna." I 
   get the impression that that could have been introduced because someone just 
   KNEW it would push the hot buttons of the Arians, and get them into a tizz. 
   Perhaps someone had a sense of humour!

A seminary rector I know once put it this way.  When presented with
some bizarre new heresy, say, for example, the rejection of incense in
the liturgy, the Catholic Church's response is usually to HEAP ON the
incense.
From: sjreeves@eng.auburn.edu (Stan Reeves)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: defining fundamentalism
Date: 3 Sep 92 03:59:58 GMT

Tom Albrecht (tom@tredysvr.tredydev.unisys.com) writes:
>REXLEX@linac.fnal.gov writes:

>>percent that do.  I'm a Baptist by membership, and yet I have studied many of
>>the confession and creeds.  I probably know the Westminister better than most
>>Presbyterians lay people!
> 
>As a Baptist I'm sure you're familiar with the Savoy Declaration, which is
>basicly a Baptist version of the Westminster Confession.  The Savoy
>Declaration, as a creed or confession, seems to be a far cry from what most
>fundamentalist baptistic congregations in the US would offer as a
>"confession."
 
Tom, I didn't know you were a Baptist!  ;-)

A small quibble here -- the Savoy Declaration is a *Congregationalist* 
version of the Westminster Confession.  The basic difference between 
Congregationalists and Presbyterians (as expressed in these confessions) 
is over the form of church government.

The Baptist version of the Westminster is known as the Second London Baptist
Confession.  It is also sometimes referred to as the Baptist Confession of 
1689 or simply the Baptist Confession.  (It was written in 1677 but was not 
published widely until 1689 (if memory serves).)  A slightly modified
version of this confession is the Philadelphia Confession, which has been 
used more widely in the U.S.  These days, the 1689 Confession seems to be
used to the exclusion of the Philadelphia.  In addition to differences in
church government, the Baptist Confession contrasts with the Westminster
on the issue of baptism -- Baptists insist on baptism of professing 
believers only and only by immersion.

One only has to read the Baptist Confession to see how far Baptists as a
whole have drifted from their historical doctrinal roots.  Most of the 
contents of the Confession would be completely foreign to the typical 
Baptist (fundamentalist or otherwise) today.


Stan Reeves 
Auburn University, Department of Electrical Engineering, Auburn, AL  36849 
INTERNET: sjreeves@eng.auburn.edu
From: jte@psi.com (John Eldredge)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Salvation and the purpose of evangelization
Date: 2 Sep 92 02:17:27 GMT
Organization: Performance Systems International, Inc. Reston Virginia.

In article <Aug.31.03.40.44.1992.25901@athos.rutgers.edu> dabbott@augean.eleceng.adelaide.edu.au (Derek Abbott) writes:
>In article <Aug.30.02.56.56.1992.12577@athos.rutgers.edu> kmm@cs.purdue.edu (Kevin Megill) writes:
>>For God will
>>judge us on the basis of what we know
>
>
>If that is the basis of judgement then it is surely better to be ignorant!!
>
>So why evangelize with any urgency?

Well, each judgement (ie the judgement seat of Christ in I Cor 3 and the Great
White Throne judgement in Rev 20) emphasizes specific acts, and the level of
knowledge will have a direct impact on the severity of judgement, but...

The fundamental issue is whether an individual's name is written in the Lamb's 
Book of Life.  The love of Christ and the realization of the lostness of souls 
apart from Him compells us to share our faith.

Not to mention He commanded it.  Not to mention the blessings it provides
(as our moderator pointed out). 

Better the bottom rung in God's Kingdom than the top rung in hell, actually :^)

John
From: gross@eric10.rtp.dg.com (Gene Gross)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Help Needed in South Florida and Louisiana!
Date: 28 Aug 92 05:01:45 GMT
Organization: Data General Corporation, RTP, NC.

Pardon this interruption of the regularly scheduled program, but I
wanted to drop a note to everyone about the needs of the people in South
Florida and Louisiana as a result of Andrew.

As most of you know by now, Homestead, FL, is no more!  People have not
only lost their homes, but they have lost their jobs and worldly
possessions.  These people are having to start all over again.

The news coming from Louisiana is that they are in need of many of the
same things that the folks in South Florida need -- to wit:

-- canned food
-- baby food and formula
-- clothing for men, women, and children

There is also a need for potable water since the water supply in both
areas has been polluted.  However, before trying to help out with the
water, please check with the local Red Cross as there are some
restrictions.

If you can, please give and give generously to the relief efforts now
under way.  I know that the Red Cross is taking in donations of the
above mentioned items.  I also understand that both secular and
religious radio stations are collecting the above items for the relief
effort.

Thanks, and now back to the regularly scheduled program. ;-)

En Agape,

Gene Gross
From: gandhi3@husc8.harvard.edu (Srinivas Gandhi)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: EWTN
Date: 30 Aug 92 05:43:26 GMT
Organization: Harvard University Department of Government


	I have seen the EWTN cable network on several occasions both
in Boston and elsewhere.  I was curious as to whether many of you
have seen its programming, particularly Mother Angelica's and
Fr. Benedict Groeschel's shows.

 
-- 

Srinivas P. Gandhi
gandhi3@husc9.harvard.edu
From: whheydt@pbhya.pacbell.com (Wilson Heydt)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Does God Exist?  And proof of existence!
Date: 27 Aug 92 07:24:42 GMT
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA

In article <Aug.26.02.26.19.1992.8323@athos.rutgers.edu>, altheimm@nextnet.ccs.csus.edu (Murray Altheim) writes:
> In any system of a given complexity, the
> information required to describe that complexity is many more orders of 
> magnitude greater than the system itself. 

This is a disproof by counter example . . .

The descriptors for the Mandelbrot Set are *much* smaller than the Set
itself.  The same is true for Julia Sets and many other mathematical
constructs.

	--Hal

-- 
Hal Heydt                    |    "Boycott Time-Warner"
Analyst, Pacific*Bell        |         --J. Danforth Quayle
510-823-5447                 |    "... kill all the lawyers."
whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM    |         --William Shakespeare
From: dan@ingres.com (Daniel J. Dick)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Shiokari Pass
Date: 3 Sep 92 04:01:59 GMT
Organization: Ingres, an ASK Company, Alameda CA 94501

Have any of you seen the video "Shiokari Pass"?  I'm not 100% sure of the
spelling of that name, but I saw it a couple days ago and could not help
but be challenged by the true story of the love, humility, and courage of
a young Japanese christian man who sacrificed his life to save others.

If you can find it in your local Bible bookstore, it's well worth watching.

By the way, do any of you know more about the person this film is about?  I'd
like to read more about him.

It is so sad today that the general public knows about the witch trials and
the inquisition and the failures of Jim and Tammy and Jimmy Swaggart, etc.,
and yet know next to nothing of the thousands of christians who faced death
courageously in the face at the hands of Nero and other pagan leaders being
torched up, boiled in water and oil, being cast to the lions with their
families, crucified rightside-up and upside down, or even of those who not
so long ago died to protect the Jews from the Nazis and even more lately
were forced to freeze to death in Solviet Russia for refusing to betray the
Lord or His people.

I'd like to hear more about these folks.
From: shadow@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (John Paulus)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Campus Ministries
Date: 24 Aug 92 01:08:43 GMT
Organization: Northwestern University, Evanston Illinois.

Hello! My name is J.P. Paulus, and I'm a member of Intervarsity Christian
Fellowship at Northwestern University. I'm probably not going to be on this
newsgroup too long, as, like with list.bitserv.christia (I think that was the
name), literally hundreds of new messages will appear within a week. I don't
have *that* much time. 
	I would really like to see a newsgroup specifically to discuss God &
student ministries on college & high school campuses. At NU, there are a
number of groups which evangelize and build up believers through prayer,
scripture & fellowship: IV, Campus Crusade for Christ, Navigators, Asian
American Christian Ministries, Tuesday Night Fellowship, & Rejoyce in Jesus.

	There's also an e-mail prayer chain that I becoming a part of.
Personally, I'd also like to see a newsgroup which focuses on prayer requests
& encouragement.

If anyone can help me out on these things, please send e-mail to:
shadow@casbah.acns.nwu.edu
or
shadow-master@nwu.edu

As they say at the end of IV Large Group meetings:
"Go With God"

--JP--
From: eje@irenaeus.mlo.dec.com (Eric James Ewanco)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Papacy (was Re: The Lord's Table (Part 1 of 2))
Date: 23 Aug 92 23:46:43 GMT
Reply-To: ewanco@kalvin.enet.dec.com
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation

David Wagner wrote, in response to a suggestion that Peter is the
foundation stone Jesus laid to build his Church:

> Paul seems to take a different view in Ephesians 2:19-22: ...
> It sends a shiver down my spine to see you describe Peter as the
> cornerstone of the church, giving Peter the honor that belongs
> to Christ.

I agree that he made a mistake in calling Peter "cornerstone", but I think that
was just a minor slip.  His point is still valid, as you conveniently quoted,
the church is built on the apostles and prophets, including Peter, not on
professions of faith.

Eric
--
/=============================================================================\
| Eric Ewanco - Software Engineer     For the rash and outrageous opinions ex-|
| Digital Equipment Corp, Maynard MA  pressed herein I alone am responsible;  |
| ewanco@kalvin.enet.dec.com          they do not belong to DIGITAL(TM).      |
\==============================- 2 Th 2:15 -==================================/
    "...[T]he greatest and most ancient Church known to all, founded and
    organized at Rome by [] Peter and Paul, [is] that Church which has the
    tradition and faith which comes down to us after having been announced
    to men by the Apostles.  For with this Church, because of its superior
    origin, all Churches must agree ...  and it is in her that the
    faithful everywhere have maintained the Apostolic tradition."
       -- St. Irenaeus, Against Heresies, c. 180 A.D., 3,3,3.
From: jim@cs.uow.edu.au (Jimmy Naumovski)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Marriage to a Catholic outside a Catholic Church
Date: 24 Aug 92 01:14:32 GMT
Organization: Dept of Computer Science, Wollongong University, Australia

I have just encountered something that i find hard to understand.

Is it true that if a Catholic marries a non Catholic in the non catholics 
church, then the Catholic church does not recognise the marriage and thus
the two are living together.

I have come across this where the Catholic priest does not recognise a marriage
of a Catholic girl in an Orthodox church unless he is present or something
like that. Is this in Vatican or Catholic law or is this a parrish thing.

I would seriously like to get an answer to this and quotes from laws and other
sources. Is the Orthodox church recognised by the Catholic church.

Thanx in advance 

Jim

Email : jim@cs.uow.edu.au
From: barnes@owlnet.rice.edu (Roderick Leon Barnes)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Please Prove it to me!
Date: 24 Aug 92 01:14:55 GMT
Organization: Rice University


	You say that you are having difficulty accepting the Christian
	faith without some proof.  It is a good thing that you don't seek
	a blind faith.  Becareful that your're not looking for one that
	is nearsighted.

	It is right to one to have a good reason for believing that Jesus
	is the Christ.  But faith of the saving sort is comes from believing
	what the BIBLE has to say.

	I will not try to convince you via the net that Scripture is sufficient
	but I do ask that you consider the following things.

		1)  Historians don't doubt that there lived a man named
		    Jesus who had a folllowing.
		2)  It is also accepted that there were disciples.
		3)  The writing of the disciples drew them neither fame
		    nor fortune.
		4)  The disciples were excommunicated, exiled and executed
		    because of the lives they lived and the Gospel they
		    preached.  Why would a man stick to a story that is
		    going to get him killed if recanting would make life
		    easier?  ANSWER:  He is convinced that the loss is
		    minimal and that his is telling the truth.
		5)  If you claim that they were crazy you must face the odds
		    that all of Jesus' disciples went crazy at the same time
		    about the same thing.  Is it the nature of crazy people
		    to produce well written texts that agree?

	There is some very convincing work that has been done by Gary Habermaas
	and Josh McDowell on the credibility of the crucifixtion and the fact
	that Jesus is the Christ.

							Roderick Barnes

	My views may not represent the views of Rice University.  They are my
	own.
From: uflorida!novavax!gowj@gatech.edu (James Gow)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Andrew
Date: 31 Aug 92 07:33:29 GMT
Reply-To: uflorida!novavax!gowj@gatech.edu (James Gow)
Organization: Nova University, Fort Lauderdale, Florida

Alive and well from the Zone. Am up and running on a generator.
God bless you all, we lived.

-- 
Linc, James Internet: Gowj@novavax.nova.edu; UUCP: gatech!uflorida!novavax!gowj
Songs of Solomon 2:12 "...the voice of the turtle is heard in our land."
James Gow P.O. Box 700585 Miami, Fla. 33170. Disclaimer [Is this really
necessary? I have a hard time getting people to understand this!]
From: dlhpfm!dlh@ncoast.org (daniel lance herrick)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: prayer
Date: 30 Aug 92 07:05:44 GMT
Organization: dlh Performance Marketing

cmgrawbu@eos.ncsu.edu (CHRISTOPHER M GRAWBURG) writes:

> I had one question in relation to the prayer posts.
> 
> I have made lists of things to pray about, etc..
> and in starts to seem repetitive real quick!!!
> 
> I end up saying the same basic lines about things day in and day
> out and they start to be more habit than anything else.
> 
> My relationship with God seems kinda habitual.
> 
> Suggestions???

Spend a little time in confession.  Use the words in Daniel chapter 9.

Praise and thanksgiving are in order.  There are some appropriate words
in Psalm 145, 104, 139, among others.

Pray for the civil magistrate "that the church may live in peace". 
Psalm 2 has a word or two that might help here.

James says "if any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God...and it shall
be given to him".  Make sure you want to gain wisdom before doing this,
the getting of wisdom is not always fun.

You might center a Bible study around the question of what a Godly
husband is and does.  Then pray that God will order your path to groom
these attributes in you, working for the maximum possible understanding
of what scripture (all of scripture, especially the older books) has to
say on the subject.  Similarly, study what a Godly woman is and does. 
Pray, in detail, that God is ordering her footsteps to develop these
traits.  (You can find guidance toward some of the more difficult
ideas, often overlooked today, by reading Elisabeth Eliot's two books
on being a woman and on being a man - I don't remember the titles.)

(Yes, Chris, this is partly a response to your earlier question.)

dan