HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jamie@cs.sfu.ca (Jamie Andrews)
Subject: Ripoffs & Regulation
Organization: CSS, Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 19:05:21 GMT

     In a nutshell:  How do I know I'm not being ripped off?

     To be more precise:  When my dentist recommends some
procedure, how do I know it's necessary?  I realize that there
are professional bodies regulating such things, that you can
haul your dentist up before them if he/she rips you or your
insurance company off, and so on.

     But let's face it... in a self-regulating profession, with
little consumer input into regulation, there is inevitably some
drift toward getting as much as you can out of the consumer.
Especially if the procedure is unlikely to hurt things.  How do
I know that the dental profession isn't deluding itself into
thinking that some expensive procedure is necessary when it
really isn't?

     I have no complaints with my current dentist, who is an
old highschool friend.  I have no doubt that if she recommends
procedure X, that she sincerely believes it is in my best
interests.  But she gets her information from the Dental
Association and her journals, all of which are controlled by
other dentists!  Why should I trust these people as a whole with
my dental well-being?

     Are there any well-informed consumer advocacy groups
concerned with dentistry out there?

     Please say what your interest in the matter is (dentist,
non-dentist, relative of dentist etc.) in your response.

--Jamie.
  jamie@cs.sfu.ca
"God has a transfinite book of theorems in which the best proofs are written.
 And if he is well-intentioned, he gives it to us for a moment." -- Paul Erdoes
Newsgroups: sci.med.dentistry
From: kconley@rei.com (Kevin Conley)
Subject: Re: Computer Software
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 21:55:37 GMT
Organization: Recognition Equipment, Inc.

david@stat.com (David Dodell) writes:

>I was asked to post this for someone who doesn't have access yet to the
>newsgroup:


My dentest has been working with a programmer for several years now to
create a program as you have asked for.  You can call the doctor for
more information.  His name is Chris McCoun DDS in Carrollton, Texas
(214) 416-3772.  You can tell him that I sent you.


-- 
Kevin Conley
Recognition Equipment Inc.
Dallas, Texas
kconley@rei.com
From: david@stat.com (David Dodell)
Newsgroups: sci.med.dentistry
Subject: Re: Modern braces
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 93 07:13:10 MST
Reply-To: david@stat.com (David Dodell)
Distribution: world
Organization: Stat Gateway Service, WB7TPY

rod@hostname.austin.ibm.com (Rod (Woody) Dunsmore) writes:

> Has anyone out there ever heard of braces that can
> be put on the insides of your teeth so that no one can 
> see them...I remember hearing about them, but I have never
> seen them (maybe they work!)...

They do exist, but can not be used in all situations due to exerting
less torque on the teeth.  And sometimes treatment can even take longer.

You can also explore non-metal banding, which uses a clear bracket
instead of a metal one.  These are virtually un-noticeable, except at
very very close distances.

david

---
      Internet: david@stat.com                  FAX: +1 (602) 451-1165
      Bitnet: ATW1H@ASUACAD                     FidoNet=> 1:114/15
                Amateur Packet ax25: wb7tpy@wb7tpy.az.usa.na
Newsgroups: sci.med.dentistry
From: jagrant@emr1.emr.ca (John Grant)
Subject: Chlorzoin
Organization: Energy, Mines, and Resources, Ottawa
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 01:25:50 GMT

Is this newsgroup for dentists only or what?  I'm not a dentist, but
I have heard about a new product called Chlorzoin which is supposed
to kill most of the streptococcus mutans bacteria in your mouth for
6 months.  The dentist paints it on your teeth and it gradually
releases the drug to kill the bacteria.   The idea is that the
bacteria (s. mutans) is responsible for most tooth decay - kill the
bacteria and presto - no more cavities.  Sounds great to me! - I
hate dentists (well, actually dentists are ok - I just hate pain!).
So what do you think?  Is anybody out there getting the treatment?

John A. Grant						jagrant@emr1.emr.ca
Airborne Geophysics
Geological Survey of Canada, Ottawa
-- 
John A. Grant						jagrant@emr1.emr.ca
Airborne Geophysics
Geological Survey of Canada, Ottawa
From: david@stat.com (David Dodell)
Newsgroups: sci.med.dentistry
Subject: Re: Dentists and dental students ! forward !
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 93 16:46:16 MST
Reply-To: david@stat.com (David Dodell)
Distribution: world
Organization: Stat Gateway Service, WB7TPY

knobel@mari.acc.stolaf.edu (Laura Knobel) writes:

> In article <8w3TXB4w165w@stat.com>, david@stat.com (David Dodell) wrote:
> 
> > > Is it me or is Dental school similar to Hell on earth ???
> 
> Don't tell me that!  I just spent hours^3000 and just about as much money
> filling out applications, sending them in, and next semester of undergrad
> (last one) will consist solely of jumping through various hoops to make 
> admissions happy.
> 
> And you're trying to tell me that it won't be worth it?????? !!!!!! ?????
> 
 
I didn't say it wasn't worth it ... I just don't remember my dental 
school experiences as being "enjoyable" ... I learned alot, think I got 
an excellent training and foundation to become an excellent dentist, but 
I don't think some of my professors were the nicest people on earth.
 
david

---
      Internet: david@stat.com                  FAX: +1 (602) 451-1165
      Bitnet: ATW1H@ASUACAD                     FidoNet=> 1:114/15
                Amateur Packet ax25: wb7tpy@wb7tpy.az.usa.na
From: david@stat.com (David Dodell)
Newsgroups: sci.med.dentistry
Subject: Re: Ripoffs & Regulation
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 93 21:02:51 MST
Reply-To: david@stat.com (David Dodell)
Distribution: world
Organization: Stat Gateway Service, WB7TPY

jamie@cs.sfu.ca (Jamie Andrews) writes:

>      Sure, dentists know their subject very well... that doesn't
> mean that they necessarily are able to be objective in
> evaluating the worth of procedures that could net them big bucks
> every time they do them.

Like any profession or trade, there is an inherrent profit motive.  Like
dealing with anyone in life, you have to look for someone you can trust
to make the best recommendations for you, not their own pocket book.

>      Well, what about a consumer council which is made up of
> or advised by dentists who are independent of the dental
> association?

What does the dental association have to do with this.  My local society
doesn't even do peer review anymore due to the liability factor.  The
only recourse a patient has now is legal action (malpractice) or filling
a complaint with the state board of dental examiners.  And how would you
pick these independent dentists?  I am a member of the
local/state/national association, but only activity is with the
continuing education committee.  Does this put me in some type of
conflict of interest?  I am not involved with anything politicial within
the organization, or have any desire to be.

> >How do you know you aren't being ripped off?  Suggestions:
> [suggestions for finding a "good dentist" within the framework
>  of dental associations deleted]

This is unfair, I did not make my comments on finding a "good dentist"
in the framework of a dental association.  I don't even think my
original post even mentioned the associations.  What makes you you feel
that they were?

> finishing high school, the word was always "go into dentistry...
> it's boring but you get pots of money."

Let's see, I made some money today, enough to pay the overhead, and some
for myself.  I spent two hours on the phone arguing with a patients
insurance company since they were requesting some absolutely ridiculous
documentation on a case.  I didn't make a penny on this.  From talking
to most of my colleagues, dentistry is one of the worse areas of
medicine you can go into if you are interested in making money.  The
average procedure doesn't make any where what a physician does, and the
overhead in a dental office is much much higher.

david

---
      Internet: david@stat.com                  FAX: +1 (602) 451-1165
      Bitnet: ATW1H@ASUACAD                     FidoNet=> 1:114/15
                Amateur Packet ax25: wb7tpy@wb7tpy.az.usa.na
From: hougen@focus.csl.uiuc.edu (Darrell Roy Hougen)
Newsgroups: sci.med.dentistry
Subject: Re: Cross bite
Date: 27 Jan 1993 03:04:16 GMT
Organization: Center for Reliable and High-Performance Computing, University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
NNTP-Posting-Host: focus.csl.uiuc.edu
Keywords: cross bite

david@stat.com (David Dodell) writes:

%hougen@focus.csl.uiuc.edu (Darrell Roy Hougen) writes:

%% My upper teeth are inside my lower teeth, ie., I have a cross bite
%% problem.  It appears to me that the problem would be corrected if the
%% upper teeth were moved forward about 1/4 inch.  I have talked to a
%% couple dentists and they recommended oral surgery to correct the
%% problem.  However, its not worth it to me to have surgery.  What I'm
%% wondering is whether it is possible to correct the problem with braces
%% possibly including an external appliance to be worn at night. A
%% potential problem is that I am already 28 so it may be hard to move
%% the teeth.  Any comments.
%
% Ask an orthodontist.

Thanks for the loads of help.  I was hoping that perhaps some
knowledgable person was reading this.

Darrell R. Hougen

Newsgroups: sci.med.dentistry
From: phil@trl.oz.au (Phillip Bouchier)
Subject: Re: Hubby's toothache
Reply-To: phil@trl.oz.au
Organization: Telecom Research Labs.
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 02:49:05 GMT

In article 214514PXF3@psuvm.psu.edu, <PXF3@psuvm.psu.edu> () writes:
>My hubby has had a toothache for three weeks.  He has been to the dentist
>twice, but the dentist can't find the problem.  He x-rayed the tooth on the
>first visit and said there was no abcess, cavity, or cracked filling that he
>could see.  He desensitized the tooth and gave Craig ineffective pain
>medication.
>
>After the second visit to the dentist, Craig went to the family doctor,
>thinking maybe he had a sinus infection or something like that.  Since he
>wasn't running a fever, the doctor didn't give him antibiotics, but he did
>give him stronger painkillers.  Still, Craig is having trouble sleeping and
>is really hurting.  The dentist called two nights ago to check on him and
>said if he's still in pain next week to come back in.
>
>Any suggestions?
>
>Many thanks,
>
>Paula


change dentist
From: welch@sacral.cis.ohio-state.edu (Arun Welch)
Newsgroups: sci.med.dentistry
Subject: Re: Ripoffs & Regulation
Date: 26 Jan 1993 20:13:13 -0500
Organization: OSU-LAIR
	<1993Jan27.001251.14258@cs.sfu.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: sacral.cis.ohio-state.edu
In-reply-to: jamie@cs.sfu.ca's message of Wed, 27 Jan 1993 00:12:51 GMT

In article <1993Jan27.001251.14258@cs.sfu.ca> jamie@cs.sfu.ca (Jamie Andrews) writes:

	Look, the point is this.  I don't know about you, but when
   I and my friends were trying to decide what to do when we were
   finishing high school, the word was always "go into dentistry...
   it's boring but you get pots of money."

I dunno when you went to high school, but it's certainly not the case
that recent (last 5-10 years) graduates of dental schools are making
"pots of money". Most of the ones I know are barely making ends meet. 

	For all I know, the entire dental profession may be made up
   of people who, when balancing treatment options, are more likely
   to put weight onto "bucks for me" as a factor... if only
   subconsciously.  How can I expect an organization of, by, and
   for dentists to judge fairly on issues of "benefit for dentists"
   vs. "benefit for patients"?

Substitute any profession in the above statement for dentistry. How do
you know you aren't being ripped off by your mechanic, plumber,
computer programmer, etc. The difference is that dentists take an oath.
While some of them might be ripping people off, quite a large number
of them take that oath pretty seriously. Very few other professions
require this.

       Well, what about a consumer council which is made up of
   or advised by dentists who are independent of the dental
   association? 

Societal pressures cause there to be very few of these. Most people
expect their dentist to be a member of the ADA (or their specialty
organisation). It makes a dramatic difference in their training, as a
large number of continuing ed. courses are tought through the dental
organisations, and the price differential is pretty substantial
between members and non-members. ADA membership dues are $800/year,
and it's still a savings for most people. Since dentists are required
to take cont. ed. courses or they lose their license (another thing
you won't find at your mechanics, etc.) they end up spending a bunch
on those courses. 

If you feel you might be getting ripped off you've got the same
options with a dentist that you do with a mechanic: get a second
opinion (or a third, etc.). Free market economics works wonders this
way. 

...arun
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Arun Welch
Lisp Systems Programmer, Lab for AI Research, Ohio State University
welch@cis.ohio-state.edu

Newsgroups: sci.med.dentistry
From: oyalcin@iastate.edu (Onur Yalcin)
Subject: Dentistry Schools in the US
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, IA
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 19:48:14 GMT

Hi,

Is there any helpful soul who could list the top 10 best known 
dentistry schools in the US?

Thanx in advance.

Onur Yalcin.
-- 
From: weisberg@hpcc01.corp.hp.com (Len Weisberg)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 00:44:12 GMT
Subject: What about mercury in my mouth?
Organization: HP Palo Alto Info Tech Center
Newsgroups: sci.med.dentistry

I am uncomfortable knowing that there is mercury in my mouth.
I understand that the forces of chewing cause minute amounts of 
mercury vapor to be released from my silver amalgam fillings.
I know that there are arguments that the amount released is trivial 
compared to what I get from a tuna-fish sandwich,
but I wouldn't be surprised if there were dramatic differences between
eating it and breathing it, as well as other chemical matters.

I would be interested in information and opinions on this issue.
What it boils down to is a decision on whether or not to have my
amalgam fillings replaced. (This, of course, leads to other questions
about other materials, and their plusses and minuses.)

Comments, please.

Thanks,

- Len Weisberg - weisberg@corp.hp.com - HP - Palo Alto Info Tech Center

(No relation to "Bruce A Weisberg at Columbia University", at least as 
far as I know :-) )
Newsgroups: sci.med.dentistry
From: phil@trl.oz.au (Phillip Bouchier)
Subject: Broken Reemer in Tooth
Reply-To: phil@trl.oz.au
Organization: Telecom Research Labs.
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 22:48:12 GMT


I have had a root cannel job done on the bottom jaw, half
way from the eye tooth to the wisdom tooth. During this
procedure the reamer broke off in the tooth. The dentist
that done this to me said he did not know how to get the
broken reamer out. He finished the job off with a temporary
filling the suggested that I see a specialist. The specialist
said he could not guarantee that he could get the reamer out
but would give me an account for trying too. I declined
his services. The reamer is still in my tooth.

My question is, will this reamer give me trouble in the future?
and
Do I have any redress against the dentist? (I live in Australia)
and
Who should pay for the reamer extaction, if required?


With Thanks,
Philip Bouchier
Newsgroups: sci.med.dentistry
From: baw2@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Bruce A Weisberg)
Subject: Hi
Reply-To: baw2@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Bruce A Weisberg)
Organization: Columbia University
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 01:11:21 GMT

	Well, since intros are being given here's mine.

	My name is Bruce Weisberg, and I am a third year student at the
Columbia University School of Dental and Oral Surgery.  It is indeed about timefor a group like this.

	If Dr. Dave happens to be with a patient, I will be glad to respond and comment on whatever, if it is within the realm of my knowledge/experience.

	Smile!

	Bruce
From: jamie@cs.sfu.ca (Jamie Andrews)
Newsgroups: sci.med.dentistry
Subject: Re: Ripoffs & Regulation
Date: 27 Jan 93 00:12:51 GMT
Organization: CSS, Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., Canada

In article <BNiyXB3w165w@stat.com> david@stat.com (David Dodell) writes:
>jamie@cs.sfu.ca (Jamie Andrews) writes:
>While there are problems in any profession, how do you expect a lay 
>person to know what I am doing is correct (I am a dentist) ... I have 4 
>years of school training plus 10 years of clinical experience.

     Sure, dentists know their subject very well... that doesn't
mean that they necessarily are able to be objective in
evaluating the worth of procedures that could net them big bucks
every time they do them.

     There is a growing public outcry about the number of
caesarean sections performed by obstetricians in North America,
as opposed to Europe (which has a better infant mortality rate).
And that's just the most obvious and easily measurable case of
money and convenience affecting diagnoses.  How do we know that
things like that are not going on in other branches of medicine?

>  Like any 
>profession, I expect to be judged by peers, not by some consumer council 
>that hasn't the foggiest idea what is entailed in completing a procedure.

     Well, what about a consumer council which is made up of
or advised by dentists who are independent of the dental
association?  That was the kind of thing I was talking about. 
Even a book written with a critical eye towards the more dubious
practices would be useful.  I'm sure that an independent
consumer advocate would not agree 100% with dental associations
on what is necessary or unnecessary.

>How do you know you aren't being ripped off?  Suggestions:
[suggestions for finding a "good dentist" within the framework
 of dental associations deleted]

     Look, the point is this.  I don't know about you, but when
I and my friends were trying to decide what to do when we were
finishing high school, the word was always "go into dentistry...
it's boring but you get pots of money."

     For all I know, the entire dental profession may be made up
of people who, when balancing treatment options, are more likely
to put weight onto "bucks for me" as a factor... if only
subconsciously.  How can I expect an organization of, by, and
for dentists to judge fairly on issues of "benefit for dentists"
vs. "benefit for patients"?

       Note that I said "for all I know".  For all I know, they
may all be selfless toilers for truth and light.  Beneath the
cloak of the dental association, we can't tell.  It would be
much better for both the dentists and the dental laymen for
there to be some independent evaluating body.

--Jamie.
  jamie@cs.sfu.ca
"God has a transfinite book of theorems in which the best proofs are written.
 And if he is well-intentioned, he gives it to us for a moment." -- Paul Erdoes
Newsgroups: sci.med.dentistry
From: bjoernf@ulrik.uio.no (Bj|rn Forbord)
Subject: Re: Chlorzoin
Organization: University of Oslo, Norway
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 11:25:54 GMT

In article <1993Jan22.012550.29563@emr1.emr.ca> jagrant@emr1.emr.ca (John Grant) writes:

   Newsgroups: sci.med.dentistry
Path: nntp.uio.no!nuug!aun.uninett.no!sunic!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!torn!nott!emr1!jagrant
   From: jagrant@emr1.emr.ca (John Grant)
   Organization: Energy, Mines, and Resources, Ottawa
   Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 01:25:50 GMT
   Lines: 17

   Is this newsgroup for dentists only or what?  I'm not a dentist, but
   I have heard about a new product called Chlorzoin which is supposed
   to kill most of the streptococcus mutans bacteria in your mouth for
   6 months.  The dentist paints it on your teeth and it gradually
   releases the drug to kill the bacteria.   The idea is that the
   bacteria (s. mutans) is responsible for most tooth decay - kill the
   bacteria and presto - no more cavities.  Sounds great to me! - I
   hate dentists (well, actually dentists are ok - I just hate pain!).
   So what do you think?  Is anybody out there getting the treatment?

   John A. Grant						jagrant@emr1.emr.ca
   Airborne Geophysics
   Geological Survey of Canada, Ottawa
   -- 
   John A. Grant						jagrant@emr1.emr.ca
   Airborne Geophysics
   Geological Survey of Canada, Ottawa



John,

when I read your article I immediately searched for Chlorzoin on Medline 
(in fact the search key was "chlorz$"), result negative.

So, there doezn't seem to be anything published on this drug.

Do you have any more informnation?

--
Bjoern Forbord
(bjoernf@karius.uio.no)




Newsgroups: sci.med.dentistry
From: ryan@pecan.cns.udel.edu (daron ryan)
Subject: Re: Modern braces
Organization: University of Delaware, Newark
Distribution: usa
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 15:49:17 GMT

In article <C19zss.1J3E@austin.ibm.com> rod@hostname.austin.ibm.com (Rod (Woody) Dunsmore) writes:
>
>I was considering getting braces to straighten my
>teeth out...but I don't wan't to go through 2 years
>of looking like a teenager again *if I can avaoid it*

  My girlfriend has the "clear" braces on her teeth (and she is going to dental
school next year).  The posts are a white-ish plastic instead of metal.  Unless
you are really looking for them, you won't see them.  She also wanted the behind
the tooth variety, but her orthodontist said they take longer and are more 
expensive.  

  Daron Ryan
  ryan@freezer.cns.udel.edu
From: fielding@unixg.ubc.ca (Anthony Fielding)
Newsgroups: sci.med.dentistry
Subject: Re: looking for Comp Sys for Dental practices
Date: 22 Jan 93 20:55:52 GMT
Organization: The University of British Columbia
NNTP-Posting-Host: unixg.ubc.ca
Keywords: Dental

In <4888@seti.inria.fr> dabaghi@menusin.inria.fr (Fadi El Dabaghi) writes:

>I am looking for informations about any advanced computerized
>system for dental practices (patient's data, color or b/w graphics
>showing patients history with automatic invoicing, electronic
>appointment list, diagnostics, treatments and periodontal treatments,
>librairies,...). I have a pc (Note Star NP-913, 60 mb mem and a proc
>intel 386dx) running with Dos. 
>Thanks for replying on my email : dabaghi@menusin.inria.fr

I know someone in the States who developed a program which sounds exactly 
like you want.  It runs on DOS machines and even makes letters which are 
amazingly personalized.  The people I speak of live in New Jerser.  If you 
are interested, I can find out their address and/or phone number.  In case 
you have heard of them, their name is Dilatush (spelling ?).  The program 
is very popular.  It also acts as a data base and all that stuff.  Let 
me know if you are interested by e-mailing me directly.  This is not a 
group to which I will remain subscribed to for long as it is not my field. 
What a fluke that I should notice it at all.

Hope this is of some help.  If interested, the program is worth it.

Anthony Fielding  e-mail :   fielding@unixg.ubc.ca




Newsgroups: sci.med.dentistry
From: cfaks@ux1.cts.eiu.edu (Alice Sanders)
Subject: Re: Modern braces
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1993 06:32:46 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Eastern Illinois University

In article <C19zss.1J3E@austin.ibm.com> rod@hostname.austin.ibm.com (Rod (Woody) Dunsmore) writes:
>
>I was considering getting braces to straighten my
>teeth out...but I don't wan't to go through 2 years
>of looking like a teenager again *if I can avaoid it*
>Has anyone out there ever heard of braces that can
>be put on the insides of your teeth so that no one can 
>see them...I remember hearing about them, but I have never
>seen them (maybe they work!)...
>
>If anyone has ANY information on this, I would really 
>appriciate it.
>
>Thanks

Rod:  E-mail me with your e-mail address, please, and I'll write you some
information.  I tried before, but it comes back, so I must not have your
correct address.

Alice