From: biesel@javelin.sim.es.com (Heiner Biesel)
Subject: Re: Violence update 30.09.92 (re: Heiner Biesel)
Organization: Evans & Sutherland Computer Corporation
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 18:23:12 GMT

werner@cs.utexas.edu (Werner Uhrig) writes:

> biesel@javelin.sim.es.com (Heiner Biesel) writes:

>>.. but rather at Deborah's plea that those of us living elsewhere should
>> petition our government to protest "...this completely insensitive
>> behavior...". The US, in particular, has little moral authority to do
>> so, given its utilization of the fruits of Peenemuende. Protests against
>> this celebration should arise in Germany, if at all. Righteous
>> indignation elsewhere, no matter how well founded, will be ignored, if
>> not resented by the Germans.

>	I beg to differ, Heiner....

>	I'm living elsewhere, and bringing up US (who is that? current
>	government?  any citizen? anyone who lives here?!?) "moral
>	authority" is about as misplaced an argument as I can think of.

Really? Would a protest by the government of, say, Haiti, carry the
same impact as one by Costa Rica? BTW, from Deborah's post it is clear
that she is referring to something official, like a statement from the
US Department of State.

>	and  "...should arise, if at all"  is a mind-set that, to me,
>	is COMPLETELY UNACCEPTABLE !!

>	Deborah had written:

>>> >Complain to your governmental officers! Other countries *must* protest
>>> >this completely insensitive behavior of the German government!

>	and you (Heiner) responded

>>> Why?

>	well, the reason, Heiner, is the same as for my "objecting"
>	to your argument:  because one cares !!

I hesitate to respond to this, because repeated experience has taught me
that these exchanges never really clarify the issues and result in an
understanding, but rather trail off into irrelevancies.

But here goes anyway. I don't have a problem with people anywhere protesting
what they see as improper behavior, be it by people or governments. I do,
however, object to exhortations that *governments* be prodded into
condemnations of some act or memorial, unless the act is particularly
heinous. Whether one wants to hold Germany to a different standard than
other countries is debatable; however, to urge the US government to take
a condemnatory stand (as opposed to individual citizens doing so) is to
request an act of remarkable hubris and hypocrisy from a government that
greatly benefited from the action being memoralized.

Incidentally, all told the V-2 was rather ineffective, killing a few
thousand people and damaging parts of some cities; roughly the
equivalent of one bombing raid on a city. What exactly are people
objecting to? Is it the employment of forced labor, the utilization
of great technical talent in the course of building new weapons, or
the fact that it is the Germans, of all people, who were going to
celebrate the development of the V-2? Had it been the Russians, or
the British who did so, would we object as strongly? Is the fact that
regime A was democratic in nature, while regime B was totalitarian a 
reason to praise the military/technical achievements of A while
not those of B?

>	Come on, now, don't be dense;  one can question if Deborah is
>	"a bit overwrought" or if she is making any efforts to influence
>	US policies also (maybe a violence update for LA and NY?!?)...
>	...BUT, she is living in Berlin, is making a credible effort and
>	performs an apreciated service by posting information (and
>	opinions) so cut her some slack, eh?!?

I appreciate her posting of information. If she wants to solicit actions
on behalf of the issues she considers important, she can and does. If I
disagree with her emphasis, and her choices of what issues to pursue,
presumably I also am free to do so. What's the problem?

...[much about US problems deleted]...

>	I mean, are we living on the same planet in the same century ?!?

Good question. Next question?

Regards,
       H. Biesel