HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: Robert_Broughton@mindlink.bc.ca (Robert Broughton)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
Subject: Re: Philip Morris
Date: 13 Sep 92 21:06:40 GMT
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Distribution: world

> Eileen Simpson writes:
> 
> I am not a smoker, I hate smoking, and I don't support tobacco companies.

Are you sure?
> 
> That said, I have also been to the former Soviet Union.

So have I.
> 
> and they don't need self-righteous Americans
> telling them that they really should give up smoking.

To start with, I'm Canadian.

Re-read my message. I said nothing about "telling them to give up smoking".
What we don't need are HYPOCRITICAL Americans that tell countries like Columbia
and Peru that they shouldn't produce cocaine, when the U.S. is the largest
exporter of a drug that is more harmful, and more addictive. If Bush and Quayle
want a War on Drugs, they should start at home.
> 
> If we were *creating* this
> vice and pushing it on them, I would stand the tobacco companies against a
> wall and have them shot.

The marketing branch of the tobacco industry IS creating this plague. (They'll
be in right behind this Russian factory. "You've come a long way, babushka!")
The Third World is the tobacco industry's number 2 target. (What used to be
E.Germany is number 1.) Haven't you heard about how the same Philip Morris is
willing to pay Margaret Thatcher $1 million/year to serve as a marketing
consultant for the Third World?

As for "standing them up against a wall", great idea. Can you say "Nuremburg
trials"?
> 
> The smokers of the former USSR will
> have access to cigarettes that are much less toxic than Russian smokes.

Can you quote a source for this tobacco industry propaganda? Next, you'll be
trying to tell us that smoking keeps you from getting fat. :-(

--
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*

Robert Broughton    Robert_Broughton@mindlink.bc.ca

"We calm and reassure. We embrace people with the message that we're
all in it together. That our leaders are infallible and that there is
nothing, absolutely nothing wrong." - Miles Drentell, _thirtysomething_
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
From: patricia@cco.caltech.edu (Patricia M. Schwarz)
Subject: Re: something quite familiar
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1992 03:55:22 GMT


>The noisy if discordant attempts to mutlify Dr.Shafarevich and his
>Russopobia (worse than that: Mutlu at least _reads_ what his opponents
>have to say) unfailingly induce very vivid and gruesome parallels:

(following tables not quoted)

I'm not familiar with this seemingly legendary Mutlu, but I think I'll
quit this current thread with these last words, which to me also evoke
the phrase "something quite familiar."

1. Personal experience: I and millions of other women are victims of
some specific type of violence. To rebuild my sense of self-worth and 
identity and independence after having it destroyed by violence, I
turned to feminism. This helped me a lot.

2. Not personal but my belief: similar story for Jews and Judaism and
Zionism, and also for Russians and "Russianism" (what is correct word?)
Survivors of violence and totalitarian oppression need cultural support
and a feeling of community and togetherness so that they can rebuild
their shattered souls.

____________________now the flip side_________________

1. I see among the wide cultural spectrum that "feminism" is, some
movements that actually blame men for *everything* wrong with the world
and make the further assumption that the only path to order and
happiness is to live separately from men. This idea leaves a bad taste
in my mouth. It's too close to other ugly ideas in the world.

2. I see similar things happening with Jews (Isreal would be perfect if
only we could get rid of the Arabs) and Russians (Russia was ruined
by those Jews and we have to encourage them to all leave as quickly
as possible.)

I have very good reasons for being afraid of men, and Israelis have very
good reasons for being afraid of Arabs, the rest of it is IMHO just
a muddle of hatred. Dehumanizing the "enemy" does not restore your humanity.
Fear can be dealt with without separatism, IMHO.

I am proud and happy to call myself a "feminist" and I have friends that
I like very much who are "Russia-loving" men and women, and also those
who are Jewish Russians or Russian Jews or whatever.

It hurts me to hear us hurt each other. I hate it when some feminists whom
I otherwise like make male-bashing comments and it hurts me when Russian
friends drop the occasional semi-antisemitic comment and also when some
of my Jewish Russian friends who emigrated are so happy to predict doom
for Russia.

End of sermon!
From: avg@rodan.UU.NET (Vadim Antonov)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
Subject: Re: "democratic" Estonia
Date: 10 Sep 1992 15:58:37 -0400
Organization: Berkeley Software Design
NNTP-Posting-Host: rodan.uu.net

In article <9209101646.AA02606@enet-gw.pa.dec.com> "soc.culture.soviet via ListServ" <SCS-L@indycms.iupui.edu> writes:
>If this is the case, why did the Russo-lingual residents of Estonia
>fail to learn Estonian? Were they all bad students? As I said before,
>instead of whining, they should dust off their high school textbooks
>and recall a few lessons.
>
>Alex

Why white and black Americans in LA do not bother themselves to
learn Spanish? The very same kind of stuff. People are living in
a BIG country and they already know a language everybody understands
in any part of that country. So... why bother? People who migrated in
as adults feel no need to learn a new language; their children usually
speak some. In my native Kabardino-Balkaria many native nationals
forgot how to speak THEIR language... My school friend was a Kabardin
and he did everything possible to avoid the lessons of Kabardin in
the school :-)

--vadim
Xref: sparky soc.culture.soviet:7610 talk.politics.soviet:7930
From: muh@physics.Berkeley.EDU (Yury M. Mukharsky)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet,talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: ESTONIA and human rights (Was: "demo
Date: 15 Sep 1992 06:56:08 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: physics.berkeley.edu

In article <1992Sep14.201737.25720@enea.se> sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog) writes:
>Yury M. Mukharsky (muh@physics.Berkeley.EDU) writes:
>>BTW, point number 1 reflects most recent fact. Nobody would argue that
>>ESSR existed and was internationally accepted.
>
>I would argue. Many people would argue. Fact is that very few
>countries outside the East Bloc recognized the "annexation"
>as legal.

You may argue that ESSR existed, you may argue on other things, too. However
it did exist. What is you definition of legal recognition? All countries
were dealing with Estonia through Moscow. They were not pretending that
Estonia is independend state. (I would even guess that 90% of them did not
care). I'm not saying that annexation was legel, after all, i'm saying
that it was, and people are to deal with the result of this. 

As I already wrote, from legal point of view, revival from Russian empire is
not worse than revival of Estonian republic. And about as much realistic.
It is different world.

Yury
From: dleschin@FEDS66.PRIME.COM (Dmitri Leschiner)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
Subject: Re: Master and Margaret and other books
Date: 12 Sep 92 00:39:57 GMT
Reply-To: "soc.culture.soviet via ListServ" <SCS-L@indycms.iupui.edu>

>Date:         Thu, 10 Sep 1992 03:31:55 GMT
>From: "Yury M. Mukharsky" <MUH%PHYSICS1.BITNET@pucc.Princeton.EDU>

>Would for change explain my

Say what?

>what was so good about Avel, for example.

You mean, what was so good about that he got killed? I don't see much,
do you? Or you mean why his offer was good, as opposite to Kain's? So
ask him, or God.

>One of mine Jewish ascuantancies tried, but it sounded like it was good,
>because it was good, because it is in Bible.

First of all, he was absolutely right, if it's what he was saying.
Second, ... see above.

>>How do you know Dostoevsky (or Bulgakov, what's matter?) was following it?
>>He told you himself, or you've read that at foreword?

>You know, when people say something they usually expressing their
>opinion, even when it not specifically stated (employer, Bulgakov
>or Leschiner may disagree).

Yeah, I had plenty of chances to see that, you know. That's why I was
always curious what their opinions are based on...
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
From: qasama@banach.WPI.EDU (John Grossi)
Subject: Re: The least nationalistic nation
Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 21:34:27 GMT

In article <SCS-L%92090810270195@INDYCMS.BITNET> "soc.culture.soviet via ListServ" <SCS-L@indycms.iupui.edu> writes:
[deleted]
Maybe I should explain better. You can never totally understand a culture
unless you are born into it. Read the word totally. Yes, partial understanding
is possible but total is impossible because you are devoting less than total
time.
-- 
_______________________________________________________________________________
qasama@wpi.wpi.edu  / V   V OOOO TTTTT EEEE\ Always store beer in a dark place.
Worcester Polytech /_ _V V  O  O   T   EEE  \__ Moderation is for monks.
God save Lazurus Long!/ v   OOOO   T   EEEE    \ Women need no excuse.
Xref: sparky soc.culture.soviet:7529 talk.politics.soviet:7891
From: verbit@brauer.harvard.edu (Mikhail S. Verbitsky)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
Subject: Re: Russian Culture through California sunshades
Keywords: all of the above
Date: 8 Sep 92 10:05:14 GMT
Organization: Sozialistische Patienten Kollektiv

In article <1992Sep6.053841.23129@cco.caltech.edu> patricia@cco.caltech.edu (Patricia M. Schwarz) writes:

>Thank you for your best wishes. But remember this is not *my* book,
>this book is by a Russian woman and an American woman. My Russian
>friend grew up in this underground culture. 

Everybody grew up in underdr. culture in Russia. 
As you understand underground culture, that is :). 
Since everybody read Solzh and Gumiliov and Brodsky and
Zhivago. At least, everybody I knew... 

>I would never take it upon
>myself to "explain" Russian culture to Americans; that is for a Russian
>to do. But we will weave together her Russian knowledge and insights
>and my contrasting American views; and hopefully we'll wind up
>with something that is authentic and true, but at the same time
>interesting and understandable to American readers.

Somehow I doubt. I just read the book by Billy Bragg on the
same subject :). Billy, from all Western "underground" artists
is the one most involved in Russia (Mayakovsky etc., he even 
recorded an album "Speaking with a Taxman about a Poetry" :).
No avail. A dumb book, where his major acievement is explaining 
who Mayakovsky was...

>So our book will not have one monolithic point of view. Actually,
>we hope to allow many people to speak for themselves about their
>own experiences in the wide variety of literary, political, musical
>and other movements that made up "the underground culture."

Sorry, Patricia, could you explain what makes und. cul. up
in Russia? No pun, I am seriously interesting in your opinion.

Misha.
From: BLANCHA@fsu.bitnet
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
Subject: currency exchange
Date: 5 Sep 92 15:21:04 GMT
Reply-To: "soc.culture.soviet via ListServ" <SCS-L@indycms.iupui.edu>

I find it interesting that you would even consider exchanging on the
street for rubles. Especially since at this time the official exchange rate
is so much in favor of the dollar.  What is it now, 1 dollar to 205 rubles?
At this rate, you are already very wealthy.  I don't know how long your friend i
d
is staying, but if he brings only $400 he can officially exchange it for
close to 82,000 rubles.  Besides, by changing it officially he will avoid
any chance, however small, of receiving counterfeit rubles for his dollars.
If you are searching for the "true" value of the ruble, even the black
market street exchnagers can give you that.  They simpley take the official
rate and up it a percentage so that the tourists will favor them when it
comes time to exchange money.  Why let the government get the much needed
hard currency to pay off foreign debts when a civilian can get it???
From: vadim@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
Subject: Venichka ob Amerike.
Date: 10 Sep 92 23:29:21 EDT

  The following is a quote from "Moskva Petushki" in russian.
 I hope those who like this diamond will enjoy. Others
 will painlessly delete all the following stuff.
 I also hope that this piece of russian art is not going
 to be discussed (by defendants of russian culture) but
 enjoyed. 
Tsitiruyu:
" -Znachit vy tozhe byli v Shtatah,-myamlil chernousiy,-Eto
   ochen i ochen chrezvichayno! Negrov tam net i nikogda ne bylo , 
   eto ya dopuskayu... ya vam veryu,kak rodnomu... no  skazhite:
   svoboda tak i ostaetsya prizrakom na etom kontinente skorbi?
   skazhite...
  -Da,- otvechal ya emu,- svoboda tak i ostaetsya prizrakom na etom
   kontinente skorbi, i oni tak k etomu privykli,chto pochti ne
   zamechayut. Vy tolko podumayte! U nih,-ya mnogo vhodil i vglyadyvalsya,
   u nih ni v odnoy grimase,ni v zheste,ni v replike net ni maleyshey
   nelovkosti, k kotoroy my tak privykli. Na kazhdoy rozhe izobrazhaetsya v 
   minutu stolko dostoinstva,chto hvatilo by vsem nam na vsyu nashu
   velikuyu semiletku. 'Otchego eto?-dumal ya i svorachival s
   Manhattena na 5th Avenue i sam sebe otvechal:'Ot ih paskudnogo
   samodovolstva,i bolshe ni ot chego.'   'No otkuda beretsya
   samodovolstvo?'- ya zastyval posredi Avenue,chtoby razreshit'
   mysl':  'V mire propagandnyh fiktsiy i reklamnyh vyvertov-otkuda
   stolko samodovolstva?' Ya shel v Harlem i pozhimal plechami: 'Otkuda?
   Igrushki ideologov monopoliy,marionetki pushechnyh koroley-otkuda
   u nih takoy appetit? Zrut po pyat raz na den',i ochen plotno,
   i vse s tem zhe beskonechnym dostoinstvom- a razve voobshe mozhet byt'
   appetit u horoshego cheloveka,a tem bolee v Shtatah!...'
  -Da,da,da,- kival golovoyu stariy Mitrich,-oni tam kushayut,
   a my pochti uzhe i ne kushaem. Ves ris uvozim v Kitay,
   a ves sahar uvozim na Kubu...
  -Nichego,papasha,hichego! Ty svoe uzhe otkushal,greh tebe govorit'
   Esli budesh v Shtatah-pomni glavnoe:ne zabyvay starushku-rodinu
   i dobrotu ee ne zabyvay... "

-V.   
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet,talk.politics.soviet
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
Subject: Re: The least nationalistic nation
From: zhelud@drfmc.ceng.cea.fr (Andrei Zheludev)
Date: 9 Sep 92 08:21:50 EDT
Organization: Conspiracy International
Originator: verbits1@husc9.harvard.edu

In article <SCS-L%92090810270195@INDYCMS.BITNET> "soc.culture.soviet via ListServ" <SCS-L@indycms.iupui.edu> writes:
>Does the contention that it is impossible to understand another culture unless
>you are born into it mean that it is pointless for scholars from one culture to
>study another culture (i.e., its arts, customs, attitudes, beliefs, history)
>and to try to help other "outsiders" understand it, too?   This is the sort of
>xenophobic reasoning that discourages *anyone* outside a culture from attemp-
>ting to penetrate it and ultimately retards human knowledge and progress.  Pure
>-and totally objectionable- nonsense, to my mind.
>                                                    Linda Scatton

No, it's not altogether pointless and it has ablolutely nothing to do
with xenophoby. I'll give an example. The human brain. Scholars _do_ study
it and not in vain- they now cane cure many brain ilnesses. But, trust my
word, they'll never understand how it WORKS. Psychotrists may study
mental ilnesses and even cure them. They nevertheless will never be
able to solve the individual personality. Culture is just the same as
personality, but on a larger scale. The problem arizes not even from the
complexity of such an object of study as culture. The problem is that the
most significant aspects of culture are EMOTIONAL, you can't verbalize
them. You can study V.Erofeev's books and biography. But if you have
never been drinking all night and feeling sick in the morning _BEFOR_
the shops selling red wine open and have never been obliged to buy
"HERES" instead, you will never understand Venichka the way he wants
to be understood.

AaaaaaaaAAAAAAa
From: dleschin@FEDS66.PRIME.COM (Dmitri Leschiner)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
Subject: Re: Master and Margaret and other books
Date: 14 Sep 92 01:12:32 GMT
Reply-To: "soc.culture.soviet via ListServ" <SCS-L@indycms.iupui.edu>

> Date:         Sun, 13 Sep 1992 21:28:20 GMT
> From: "Yury M. Mukharsky" <muh@PHYSICS.BERKELEY.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: Master and Margaret and other books
> >
> >>what was so good about Avel, for example.
> >
> >You mean, what was so good about that he got killed? I don't see much,
> >do you?
>
> I mean he was a crook. Plain straigt-forward crook. The fact that crook
> was murdered does not make him saint.


Big news in exegese are coming! Some recent evidence concerning
his misdeeds, or what? Dead Sea Scrolls reveal the truth?

Something of nature like that has occured recently near us in
Acton, MA: the crooks stole the gates form local cemetery.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
From: didinsky@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (didinsky garry)
Subject: Culture?....
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 17:02:19 GMT
Keywords: eto o kom?...

As always I am late, thank God I have little to say.

Culture:  For those who think that one day you come to a new country
	look around, and you know it.  Not.  Understanding the way of
	a country takes years.  I am taking from my own experience, as
	well as from discussions with others.  

	  This summer I met a man in France who emigrated there 10 years
        ago.  He said it took him about 5 yrs.  to understand France and
	french.  I think it took me same amount of time to understand
	America and americans. (at least to a point where nothing surprises
	me.)  Also, I see a lot of new emigrants and soviets, and get to 
	talk to them sometimes.  I don't think they understand, at least
	not all and not "completely".  

	  Most new commers, look at america through "russian-rule-of-thumb"
        glasses.  They can relate to certain things, but understanding how
	things fall into their own places is lacking.

	  There is also a short story I would like to share: I was talking
        to a samalian, and was telling him a russian joke, the one about
	true meaning of happiness:

	   French,English, and Russian are talking about happiness....
	   and Russian said: No, happiness is when someone knocks on 
	   your door at 2 am, you open and there are two big guys in
	   leather coats asking you if you are Ivanov, and you say no,
	   Ivanov lives one floor up.

        Samalian guy added that I forgot to add that two guys were also
	wearing leather caps. :-)  Did he understand Russia, or could he
	relate to certain aspects of Russia?

ps.  I would like to start a small essay contest.  They name of the essay
should be "Tyazheloe americanskoe detstvo", and essay should be your 
desciption of P.M. Schwart's life.  The essay will be judged based on 
creativity, as well as on amount of true facts.  Please provide references
from Ms. Schwart's past posting.
From: petrel@ac.dal.ca
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
Subject: Re: Re: Bulgakov
Date: 13 Sep 92 22:22:07 -0300
Organization: Dalhousie University, Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

In article <AE2jmig406@sovet.cntc.dubna.su>, fed@sovet.cntc.dubna.su
 (E.D.Fedyunkin) writes:

> In: <88268@netnews.upenn.edu> sergei@upenn5.hep.upenn.edu (Sergei Borodin)
 writes:

> 
>>   In article <SCS-L%92090815311665@INDYCMS.BITNET> "soc.culture.soviet 
via ListServ" <SCS-L@indycms.iupui.edu> writes:
>>
>>   >I probably was out of the 'real world' for a while, 'cause I learn more and
>>   >more 'well-known' facts in this forum.  What are the evidences of Bulgakov's
>>   >anti-semitism?
>>
>>    Remember "Sobachje Serdtse"?  It might be questionable, but I beleive
>>   that Shvonder was a Jew. Last name sounds Jewish and he was described
>>   as black haired.
>>    So, Philipp Philippovich, absolutely nice and gorgeous person said once:
>>   "Ja by etogo Shvondera, chestnoe slovo, povesil by na pervom suku" -
>>   skazal Philipp Philippovich, vgryzajas' v krylo indushki." (Quotation
>>   from my  memory).
>>
>>    Isn't that a call to exterminate Jews?
>>
>>    Or take "Master & ..", what about criticist Latunsky? Very vile person.
>>    Or succesfully killed Berlioz?
>>    How bad fin. director Rymsky looks.  And all that are just from the
>>   "top of my head".

But what a head ....


>>    And after all that you're asking about the evidences?


>      Oh, yes! Bulgakov was antisemite and ... "rusofob" in the same time!
> Remember "Master & ..",  what about RUSSIAN poet Ivan Bezdomnyiy?  He  is
> stupid and after all has bacome a crazy. Isn't that about all russian are
> crazy?!

Not only Russians must be crazy.

Guessing from the guest list of the Woland's party, Bulgakov was also:

          --- anti-Italian (Italians were represented by Tofana, a woman
who helped to poison 500 husbands of bored wives from Palermo and Napoli
(a radical feminist?)

      ------ anti-French (Monsieur Jacques, a killer of the king's lover)

         ------ anti-German (the name of the baby-kiler, Frieda, at least sounds
         German), 




Why to limit the power of Mr. Borodin's reasoning to  nations? 

Bulgakov must have been vehemently anti-street-car-driver-ish ! Remember
who (``succesfully'') killed Berlioz? 





>      Is my logic similar to your logic, mr. Borodin?  To my surprise rus-
> sian antisemites ("Pamiat'") search "hzidovskie proiski"  by  the SIMILAR
> way!
>      I don't consider Bulgakov was antisemite.
> 
>      SY   E.Fedyunkin
> 

The impact of Mr. Borodin's Method has been felt on the other side
 of Atlantic as well. ``MacLean's'' had this story:

The Toronto Globe and Mail published an article on the political correctness,
illustrated by a photo on which all people were wearing glasses. Two people
wrote the letters complaining:

``This is visual stereotyping of the worst sort!''

Any relatives in Canada?


I wish Mr Borodin  further equally amazing achievements in the analysis of
the literature.


Piotr Trela
From: muh@physics.Berkeley.EDU (Yury M. Mukharsky)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
Subject: Re: "democratic" Estonia
Date: 10 Sep 1992 17:21:47 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: physics.berkeley.edu

In article <1992Sep10.073733.16201@jyu.fi> ryyti@jyu.fi (Jarmo Ryyti) writes:
>

[Desription of abundant Estonian sources of information ommited].

Jarmo, you shows a great example of so called "unbiased" information.
Did you tried for a change speak with Russians?
>
Yury
From: dleschin@FEDS66.PRIME.COM (Dmitri Leschiner)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
Subject: Re: Master and Margaret and other books
Date: 14 Sep 92 02:37:37 GMT
Reply-To: "soc.culture.soviet via ListServ" <SCS-L@indycms.iupui.edu>

> Date:         Mon, 14 Sep 1992 01:59:36 GMT
> From: "Yury M. Mukharsky" <muh@PHYSICS.BERKELEY.EDU>
>
> More details, Leschiner not just primary school teacher, he is primary
> soviet school teacher and as such have no access to Bible.
>
> I have not my copy at hand, but did not he deceive his father by putting
> a goat's skin to imitate his brother's facial hair (abundant), as thus
> got a blessing?
>

Shit, it turns out, being primary soviet school teacher might have been
quite a beneficial indeed!!! I would proudly release that even I myself,
being one, as well as overwhelming majority of my colleagues, aware that
was Jacob who deceive ... and so on. Not Abel, sorry. Primite i proch.

Not facial hair, also, but body (arms) hair.

If you are still so much interesting in exegese, I may offer you for further
studies the observation that it was his brother Isav who sold him his
descendant's rights for one bowl of cheap soup, being immediately justly
punished for his lust and greed. As it might so be dangerous to also you.

Sincerely yours.

> If you insist, I may entertain netters by some other criminal stories from
> Bible. Otrkroju rubriku "is zhizni osob verhnih classov."
>

You are welcomed very much.

> Yury.
>

Dimulya,
Sexist abuser
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet