HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: shick@europa.eng.gtefsd.com (steve hick)
Subject: Re: FAQ, fencing and Aikido.
Reply-To: shick@europa.eng.gtefsd.com (steve hick)
Organization: GTE Contel Federal Systems
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 15:22:11 GMT

 Matt in <1992Aug30.235102.18440@samba.oit.unc.edu>   mentions:

2) I was glad to see mention of fencing recently.  I've been involved in 
Elizabethan reneactment fencing for about 2 years.  Myself and a small
group of friends have been studying the fencing manuals written by Silver
and Saviollo in the sixteenth century and doing our best to recreate the
feel of the weapons and the skills necessary to use them.  Having also
been involved in the modern sport of fencing I've found the recreation
work we've done to be considerably more challenging, strenuous and in the
long run, fun.  Has anyone else had much experience with this sort of
fencing?  I know that the SCA does something like this, how similar? I may
be inviting some flames, but I've found modern fencing to be so
specialised and limited by rules that it seems detached from any martial
facets it may've once had, we seemed to recapture a little of this in our
reenactment...comments?


There are numbers of people in the SCA who do this, some really do recreation, others do sport fencing in the round.  
How well do they do---some do quite well, use period weapons, etc., etc., but this tends to be peripheral to the SCA.  
The SCA probably could be best catagorized as fencing in the round with more of a late 19th century feel, more 
combat oriented, but barely-their safety rules limit the use of anything other than epees or foils,  although some 
places allow schlagers or double-wide epees.  I do recommend you contact them, just post to rec.org.sca.

There are also others who research and are more or less peripheral to the SCA.  A number of people here (DC area) 
as well as others in Michigan, Toronto and Boston do recreation and research.  I specialize in manuals which (mostly) 
predate the above by 100 years or more (mostly German, some Spanish and Italian, eg. Talhoffer (1443, 1459, 
1467), Jeff Singman in Michigan and his friends in Toronto do a very accurate recreation of diGrassi, and Jeff is 
working on a manual of ca 1300 (sword and buckler).  Both Ken Reed (DC) and Patri Puglese (Boston) are 
researching mostly Italian Renaissance materials, I think their primary interests are Viggiani, Agrippa and di Grassi, 
with Fabris and Capo Ferro of lesser interest.  There are others.

I agree fencing has diverge from reality, even more so since I was active in the late 60's and 70's with many rule 
changes and electrification.

Steve Hick
From: wrat@unisql.UUCP (wharfie)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Which joints can be locked in judo?
Keywords: judo, aikido, rules, locks
Date: 26 Aug 92 19:06:41 GMT
Reply-To: wrat@unisql.UUCP (wharfie)
Organization: UniSQL, Inc., Austin, Texas, USA

In article <1992Aug26.163417.23499@ms.uky.edu> satadd00@nx22.mik.uky.edu (scott andrew taddiken) writes:
>So called "bent" arm locks are acceptable in judo competition.  These involve
>twisting the shoulder after immobilizing the bent arm of your opponent.  Some

	No, they involve leverage against the elbow.  Many people either
never bother to learn and perform the technique properly or "cheat" in the
heat of action.  When that happens the result is indeed a shoulder lock,
and because the position of all the arms is almost identical it's very
difficult to tell where the pressure is being applied.  But attacking
any joint except the elbow in a judo match is hansoku-make, an immediate
disqualification from not only that match but the rest of the tournament.

>They are rare in competition, whether standing or grappling on the ground.

	Really?  I don't think so.  At least not in groundwork.
From: tung@paaiec.enet.dec.com ()
Subject: Shotokan in Silicon Valley
Reply-To: tung@paaiec.enet.dec.com ()
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 03:52:28 GMT


Does anyone know of any good Shotokan dojo in the Silicon 
Valley area? 
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: weigand@pecan.cns.udel.edu (Steve Weigand)
Subject: Re: Moving during kicking
Organization: University of Delaware, Newark
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 20:11:30 GMT

In article <3602@unisql.UUCP> wrat@unisql.UUCP (wharfie) writes:
>In article <1992Sep3.040220.16319@hou.amoco.com> zwbm07@hou.amoco.com (Walter Moore) writes:
>>Actually, I've seen *VERY* effective front/side kicks used while retreating
>>from an oncoming attackers, particularly by TKD artists. The back kick 
>
>	They run away, then reverse direction or stop and kick.  Not the 
>same as kicking while retreating.

No... Mr. Moore was correct. 

I believe Mr. Moore was refering to the kick where the defender will be 
facing the attacker, then the attacker does some frontal attack (takes a 
step forward at least), and the defender will jump back and kick out towards
the attacker (at the same time). This is very frequently used in Taekwondo.
I used to study TKD, where we were taught this type of movement from day one. 
It takes split second timing, but it is very effective. The kicks may not be
as effective as if they were from a non-moving stance, but it works.

See yas,
 -Steve Weigand
 (weigand@ee.udel.edu)

Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: R3TLM@VM1.CC.UAKRON.EDU
Subject: Savate?
Organization: The University of Akron
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 19:48:14 GMT

 
     I've seen savate in contests before and I was wondering if anyone knew
of any instructors in NE Ohio?
                              --Timothy McCollum
From: mikel@Apple.COM (Mikel Evins)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Western Boxing, how 'imprecise' is it ?
Date: 28 Aug 92 16:38:02 GMT
Organization: Apple Computer Inc., Cupertino, CA

In article <1992Aug27.183133.4692@ns.network.com> hahn@plugh.network.com (Peter Hahn) writes:
>
>At any rate, where I work out, the lesson we are asked to draw from the
>fact that boxers miss once in a while is not that boxers are less
>precise than martial artists.  Rather, it is more like "That guy
>trained eight hours a day for ten years.  He still can't bat better
>than .500 with a *left* *jab*.  If you are trying something *more* complex,
>how often do you think you'll really land it?"

An interesting point, but I think it's worth keeping in mind that
simple does not equal easy. A lesson to keep in mind from the
various engineering disciplines is that a design is sometimes made more
complex in order to make something easier to do. Similarly, some
trapping combinations (some of the praying mantis handwork comes
to mind) may be more complex than a left jab, and it may take
more time to learn the mechanics, but they may end up being easier
to land precisely because the added complexity is designed to serve
exactly that purpose.
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: satadd00@nx22.mik.uky.edu (scott andrew taddiken)
Subject: Re: Seoi Nage / Tomoe Nage 
Keywords: Judo
Summary: Scott's 2 c.
Organization: University of Kentucky
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 17:04:05 GMT

I've been away from the terminal for a while, but tardiness in response is
acceptable, I hope.

1. Drop seoi nage:  I am bewildered by comments that you are not allowed to
   throw from your knees.  I vividly recall a Pole scoring ippon against a
   Japanese in the last thirty seconds of an 88 Olympic match with an ippon-
   seoi-nage from his knees (actually, at one point before the throw really
   got going, his butt was on top of his feet, and his knees were on the mat.
   In super-slomo it didn't seem possible).  Perhaps this is a new rule?
   Perhaps this is an old rule which is rarely enforced?

   I do not use drop seoi, though I respect its power.  Our local expert on its
   execution when I was in Chicago was Doug Tono (3rd place Kano Cup, I believe
   is the finest feather in his cap).  He demonstrated it on a fellow who was
   bending down a bit.  He would pull uke strongly down and forward, then when
   uke straightened up a bit, he would drop in.  Points he said were important
   were to lock the upper body of your opponent tight against you as you drop
   in, and to try to keep your back straight, hunching up your shoulders a
   little to give him something high to fall over.  I asked him whether it was
   better to hit him when he's stepping hard on his right foot and
   straightening, or stepping hard on his left foot and straightening.  His
   response was revealing: "If you're worrying about his feet, you aren't gonna
   throw him."

2. Tomoe nage: I'm surprized that noone has brought up yoko-tomoe (all right,
   I suppose technically it's a different throw) which is statistically useful
   in some of the lower weight classes, and relatively safe for a good mat
   technician to try.  I use it, but have a very hard time explaining it.
   Shall I try?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Scott A. Taddiken    University of Kentucky
From: f89md@fy.chalmers.se (Markus Dernevik)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: T'ai chi advice sought
Date: 23 Aug 92 16:39:11 GMT
Organization: Chalmers Univ. of Technology, G|teborg, Sweden

Hi Martial Artists! I have followed your group for some weeks and
I would like some advice on T'ai chi chuan. I am basically an
amateur boxer but since two years i have ( almost totally ) converted 
to ki aikido. Still, I feel that aikido is perhaps not the right thing 
for me. By reading about and trying ( twice! ) t'ai chi I have gotten
the impression that it is what i am looking for. 

I would appreciate any comments on t'ai chi as a martial art. Also I 
would like some tips on picking a teacher that doesn't neglect the 
martial aspect. The t'ai chi I tried here in Sweden seemed to consist
of only solo form.

For any french people on the net: I will move to Grenoble this autumn.
Is there a good t'ai chi school in Grenoble ? Is there any t'ai chi
school in Grenoble at all ?

Thanx in advance. And another thing: as i am new on the net, i am not
sure about proper etiquette. I apologize for any breaches of it.

/markus
From: mary@Cayman.COM (Mary Malmros)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Activist shot at Berkeley Chancellor's home
Date: 28 Aug 92 14:20:26 GMT
Followup-To: rec.martial-arts
Organization: Cayman Systems Inc., Cambridge, MA
In-reply-to: tcox@netcom.com's message of 28 Aug 92 06:20:58 GMT


In article <kbdnh8p.tcox@netcom.com> tcox@netcom.com (Thomas Cox) writes:

   rpwhite@cs.nps.navy.mil (rpwhite) writes:

[snip]

   > [...] I think that this was just another case of an
   >incompetent asshole with a badge and a gun. 

	   How much training does the typical cop get with a gun?  Many
	   hours a year, plus regular re-qualifying.

	   How much training does the typical cop get with any of the
	   other equipment (nightstick, mace, NOT the dog)?  In most
	   departments, *none*.

     [assorted vengeful stuff deleted]

   >rp -- told you I have nothing against violence.

	   The guy used the tool he was trained to use.

Yeah...that's what it sounds like, unfortunately.  It's WAY too bad, 
because it seems to me that the rest of the police arsenal can be
so useful...nightstick, mace, a heavy flashlight, whatever.  No sane
cop is going to pull out a gun and start blasting if they're in
a crowd of teenagers who are just throwing fists...but if they 
haven't received training in other techniques, they stand a real 
good chance of getting hurt in this kind of situation.  

Last night a police officer came to watch our jo class.  He is actually
a training supervisor, and he was looking around at different kinds of
staff techniques.  Apparently the department he trains learns a very 
simple series of sweeps and strikes...like, 2 or 3 max, and then they
practice them a bunch.  Not a bad way to train if you are reasonably 
sure you'll have to use this stuff some day...
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Mary Malmros     | Cayman Systems Inc, 26 Landsdowne St, Cambridge, MA 02139
 mary@cayman.com  | Phone 617-494-1999  Fax 617-494-5167  AppleLink CAYMAN.TECH
From: poore@ds9.scri.fsu.edu (David Poore)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Re- Tai Chi, final
Date: 28 Aug 92 12:51:57 GMT
Reply-To: poore@ds9.scri.fsu.edu (David Poore)
Organization: Florida State University

In article <9208280330.AA10252@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU> david_yeh@MACMAIL.MED.NYU.EDU ("David Yeh") writes:
>                      Re: Tai Chi, final
>Lawrence Chan said:
>>2. Today's approach to Tai Chi practice is,
>>     A. the forms
>>     B. push hands
>>     C. da lu
>>     D. single form
>>     E. sword and/or other weapons
>yes.  But for us, the next "practical" exercise he teaches is something he
>calls san shou.  In Chinese a word for word translation means "break hand"

No, I think this 'san' is 3. 3 hands. What we call in Xingyi
three-handed techniques, are those techniques with three basic steps.
Usually one hand intecepts something, the other controls while the first
hand strikes. Not sure about the similarites to Taiji. But of course,
what I'm learning (and you for that matter) is all a complete fraud.
I've been ever-so-depressed since Lawrence showed up and told us that.

>In case you're wondering who this is who teaches san shou, I study under
>William C.C. Chen, if this means anything.  I was actually quite surprised to

Well, I'm sure Lawrence will correct me, but many people think William
Chen is very highly skilled, and a good fighter.

David Poore
poore@ds9.scri.fsu.edu
From: poore@ds9.scri.fsu.edu (David Poore)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Jumping
Date: 2 Sep 92 12:46:12 GMT
Reply-To: poore@ds9.scri.fsu.edu (David Poore)
Organization: SCRI, Florida State University

In article <1992Sep2.003544.2181@psych.psy.uq.oz.au> campbell@psych.psy.uq.oz.au (Campbell Dickson) writes:
>>What types of exercises should I do to increase my vertical leap?
>One traditional method I've seen mentioned is to dig a hole in the ground
>and jump out of it. You start with a depth of say 2' and as your jumping

Damn!

And all this time I've been beating my dogs for nuthin'. They were just
trying to help me out!

David Poore
poore@ds9.scri.fsu.edu

Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: rschoen@laborixsai.mathematik.uni-ulm.de (Reinhard Schoen)
Subject: Re: Jumping
Reply-To: rschoen@laborixsai.mathematik.uni-ulm.de (Reinhard Schoen)
Organization: University of Ulm, SAI, Germany
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 92 13:08:13 GMT

In article <181373INNquk@agate.berkeley.edu>,
hugo@batsparc.Berkeley.EDU ( Hugo Calendar ) writes:
|> 
|> Ben Goodwin writes:
|> > What types of exercises should I do to increase my vertical leap?
  [...]
|> Indeed, deep stances steel your legs.  We also used to do squat jumps
|> on end at my school.  In a squat jump, you start with your legs bent as
|> far as they go, standing on the balls of your feet (or flats, if you're
|> that flexible), then you jump up as high as you can, and bring your
|> knees into your chest at the apex.  You land in the same position you
|> started.  For balance development purposes, you want to try to keep your
|> torso straight, and your arms in a given position (on your head, or in
|> a guard position, perhaps) throughout the whole thing.  Do as many of
|> these as you can in a row, and you feel like you've got hot wax in your
|> legs.  You can devise your own workout structure (pyramid?) with this
|> exercise.

Hey, that's a great exercise for injured knees!

(and I don't mean AGAINST injured knees >:->  )

Reinhard
__________________________________________________________
    Reinhard Schoen          rschoen@mathematik.uni-ulm.de
     Bruehlstr. 19
      7900 Ulm 12          Der Mensch denkt, und Gott lenkt.
        GERMANY           Der Mensch dachte, und Gott lachte.
From: burdickd@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Dakin Burdick)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Can boxing skills handle kicking? (to Colin Adams)
Date: 29 Aug 92 12:51:04 GMT
Distribution: rec.martial-arts
Organization: Indiana University

A friend of mine sparred with a Golden gloves who was trying to make
the transition to Kickboxing.  My friend is a TKD black belt.  As
expected, the boxer dribbled my friend's head whenever my friend
let him get close enough.  But when my friend wised up and started
throwing side and front kicks at the boxer's stomach to keep him from
moving in, he found he could keep the boxer out quite nicely.  The
kicks must have been more painful than punches, because the boxer 
decided to stick to boxing.

Dakin
burdickd@copper.ucs.indiana.edu
From: billc@motatl.UUCP (Bill Cutts)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Jumping
Date: 3 Sep 92 14:44:07 GMT
Organization: Motorola Technical Systems Division (TSD), Atlanta, GA
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4

bburgar@cix.compulink.co.uk (Bill Burgar) writes:
: Ben Goodwin writes:
: >Quick question on jumping:
: >
: >What types of exercises should I do to increase my vertical leap?
: >I'm working on my jumping spinning back kicks and I figure there must
: >be some muscles that I can work on to give me a little more height.
: >
: >Any replies appreciated.
: >
: >-Ben
  
I don't really disagree with anything Bill Burgar says in his reply but
I thought I would add to a couple of things.

: How timely, I'm just about to start writing a BIG article about
: jumping, so I'll be interested to see what the net has to say about
: this.
: 
: IMHO, you would do well to look at what your arms are doing. The
: arms play a very important part in getting your centre of gravity
: moving upward before your feet leave the floor.

But in an MA application you may be constrained in what you can do with
your arms. You don't want them flailing around where they are unusable
for attack or defense.

: Also some time watching some high and long jumping would be time
: well spent. Notice the dip just before takeoff to store up energy
: in the tendons.
: 
: I think the quads are probably the major muscle group for jumping,
: and I hate to say it but deep stances are probably good for developing
: them. Calf muscles play an important part, if used correctly, however
: most people do not use them fully. You may be better to look at
: completely utilising your muscles in addition to making them stronger.

There is no doubt that proper utilization and coordination between the
muscle groups is very important here.

: Finally, go for explosive power rather than pure strength.

To learn how the train for "explosive power" rather than "pure strength"
go to a library or book store and find a book on plyometrics.
Plyometrics is a form of conditioning which trains you to utilize your
body explosively. But normally you should undertake some "pure strength"
training before beginning a plyometric routine and the plyometrics are
usually used as an adjunct, rather than a replacement, to strength type
workouts. The reason for doing some preconditioning is that plyometrics
place an extreme amount of stress on your muscles and connective tissue
- explosive actions require explosive reactions within the body.

: Bill Burgar.

Good luck and happy training,

Bill.
-- 
______________________________________________________________________
Bill Cutts                             | INET :Temporarily Unavailable| 
Systems Engineer                       | UUCP : gatech!motatl!billc   |
Motorola Technical Systems Division    | #include <disclaimer.h>      |
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: ftit@engin.umich.edu (Sergej Roytman)
Subject: Re: Seeking Feedback (was Re: Shotokan misconceptions)
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 92 15:30:12 EDT
Organization: University of Michigan Engineering, Ann Arbor

In article <JON.92Aug27103015@zeus.med.utah.edu> jon@zeus.med.utah.edu (Jonathan Byrd) writes:
|In article <#cj-sB=@engin.umich.edu> ftit@engin.umich.edu (Sergej Roytman) writes:
|
|   What I don't get is, how *can* you be emotional?  Do you think,
|   "OhmyGod!  I'm gonna' have to hurt this poor seven-foot-tall 250 lb.
|   motorcycle-gang-type who wants very much to kill me.  I've never
|   hurt anyone before.  My phaser only goes to 'maximum stun'."  May I
|   submit that by the time you've thought that you may be dead?
|
|sergej, i do not see a conflict between the reflexive nature of
|fighting, and taking the time to carefully think things through.
|

Agreed.  This sub-thread started out as a discussion of the merits
(or lack of same) of considering an opponent an "object" once he
"abuses" someone.  I assume that the purpose of doing so is overriding
the conditioning that keeps normal people non-abusive.  I still say
that once you've decided to fight it's too late to wonder if you made
the right decision; the same conditioning that makes you a regular
human being can cause Bad Things to happen if it's applied at the wrong
time and slows you down.  We seem to agree here.

As for when one should decide to fight, that's a question of morality
and strategy whose solution everyone must find for himself.  Me, I'm
still searching.

|(setq sun_tzu-mode t)
|

|there is little time for thought in battle, but you must wage war very
|carefully and deliberately.  this requires forethought, and open eyes.
|
|(setq sun_tzu-mode f)

Sound advice.

|--
|jonathan byrd
|jon@apollo.med.utah.edu

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
|  ftit@engin.umich.edu   |   "... a stainless steel rat in the       |
|    (Sergej Roytman)     |  ferroconcrete wainscoting of Internet"   |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Say no to four-line .sigs.
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: krystek@alcor.bms.com (Stanley Krystek)
Subject: Re: Fencing
Organization: Bristol-Myers Squibb, Macromolecular Modeling
	<71859@apple.Apple.COM>
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 13:53:15 GMT


In article <71859@apple.Apple.COM> mikel@Apple.COM (Mikel Evins) writes:


>   >We fencers are lurking about here in this group.  Post away!

>   I wonder if you would care to comment, as a student both of fencing
>   and of other martial arts, on how fencing experience interacts
>   with other MA training.

I was already a black belt in TKD before I was exposed to fencing in college.
After two semesters of classes I was starting to enjoy the sport.  The major
problems I had with fencing, especially foil was the resrtiction in movement.
To limit movement to forwards and back was hard for a martial artist to 
addapt to (and I had many fouls) side stepping a aggressive attacker. 

I found the as far as practical defense a combination of the skills fencing
provides combined with sparring strategy MA provides makes for an interesting
combination.  My college roommate and I used to hold "anything goes" matches 
where we would fight with a number of weapons (usually wood practice models)
and include open handed techniques (feet for me and he being a boxer fists).

There is no doubt fencing is an art but compared to MA, the reflexes MA develops
lends to more general benefits in coordination, fitness and self confidence.
And combined the 2 arts just extend the martial abilities of the partiicipant.

stan




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Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts