From: bkoike@sdcc13.ucsd.edu (Bryce Koike)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: Game Balance (was Re: Burn, GURPS, Burn)
Date: 24 Jan 93 17:46:08 GMT
Organization: University of California, San Diego

In article <1993Jan22.171351.3762@news.columbia.edu> jhk6@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (John H Kim) writes:
>slouie@ocf.berkeley.edu (Shelley Louie) writes:
>>Points systems -> Balanced. Requires a decent GM and non-munchkin players
>>to maintain a sense of realism.

	Depends on the point system being used, really.  Certainly
true with flexible systems like Champions and GURPS.

>>Random systems -> Realistic. Requires a decent GM and non-munchkin players
>>to maintain a sense of balance.

	Realistic?  Uh, in what way?

	Regardless...random systems tend to be more restrictive than
flexible point-based systems, and have difficulty accomplishing many
of the things I have no problem dealing with when I run GURPS games.
For that reason alone I just can't bring myself to accept a random
system as my favorite one.  (To date, I haven't found an acceptable
random system that handles good magic, light psionics, super powers,
medieval combat, and high technology.  I've played Palladium in the
past and it simply doesn't work because its components are awful,
and too many of the rules push gaming in the wrong direction.)

>	Uh, does anyone else feel the way I do about this? In my experience, 
>complex point systems are only balanced if carefully monitored by the GM. 
>This is *especially* true of Hero and GURPS. What point system do is give 

	This is true of all gaming, period.  Even a "balanced"
randomly-generated party can easiliy get out of hand if the GM does
not attempt to balance things out, give characters equal time, etc.
If all a GM wants to run is a magic game and someone makes a dumb
barbarian who won't be able to accomplish anything, then regardless
of the system, the "balanced" barbarian can quickly become the
"useless" barbarian.

>alot more flexibility and choice to the player, but they are realistic and 
>balance only with much effort. 

	Not all point-based systems give flexibility.  CP2020 comes
to mind... (rigid class-based systems of any type simply are too
restrictive to be useful to me.)

>	Random roll systems are more restrictive. The player always gets 
>some choice: typical would be rolling a set of attribute numbers and then 
>arranging them as he wants. Still, the character is much less 'personalized' 
>to the player. However, they can be fairly realistic, and fairly balanced - 
>although they often are not. Call of Cthulhu characters are usually 
>realistic *and* balanced. Arduin Grimoire characters are rarely either. 

	This is my major gripe with randomly-generated characters,
roughly.  How does one run a high-powered campaign as opposed to a
low-power campaign?  How does one generate god-like characters as
opposed to children?  AD&D and Palladium attempt to accomplish this
by levels, but then you're still restricted to certain professions
that they've pre-set.  If I want to play something completely
different, it's going to be extremely difficult.
	More often than not, I've seen AD&D games with randomly
generated characters get out of hand simply because some characters
are much more powerful than others.  Why?  Because some people roll
lucky and others don't.  Bad example for randomly-generated
character creation?  Probably, but considering the popularity of
AD&D and how long it has lasted, I seriously doubt that this
unbalance has ruined campaigns so long as the GM's reign in the
characters when they get out of hand.
	So really, balance always falls in the hand of the GM.  The
GM can upset balance or the GM can create it.

	The USEFULNESS of character generation depends on far more
than whether or not the system uses dice rolls or points to generate
a character.  How flexible is it?  What can I do with it?  Is it
class-based?  How easy is it for me to make my own classes?  Can I
make a wide range of characters who have varying "power" levels?
Can I run a multi-genre campaign and with a minimal amount of
difficulty get it to work?  Can I run a game which centers around
weak characters?  Can I run a game with extremely powerful
characters?  Can I do either with the system?
	Me, I want flexibility.  I want to be able to do nearly
anything I want with the game.  If I want to run a super-heroic game
with characters possessing massive powers, I should be able to.  If
I want to run a superhero game where the characters all have
piddling powers and are only barely more powerful than the "mere
mortals," then I should be able to do that to.  I should be able to
mix magic, psionics, high technology, and medieval combat.
	For me, that's what I judge a GOOD system by.  (Beyond my
personal pet peeves.  I don't like Hero's metarules, for example.  I
do not like telekinesis, pyrokinesis, mind control, and other
"powerful" psionics.  I like low-powered psionicists at best.  I
like a system that gives an illusion of reality.  I like a system
that urges me to use logic before I use rules...etc.)

>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
>John Kim                    | "You're on the cutting room floor, Chaplin.
>jhk6@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu | Not a good place to be."
>Columbia University         |                  (from the movie 'Chaplin')


Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy