From: jcho@nmsu.EDU (CHO)
Subject: Re: U2's de-nomination
Organization: New Mexico State University, Las Cruces, NM
	<JCHO.92Sep23155108@dante.nmsu.EDU> <1992Sep24.184611.1475@pictel.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 18:49:49 GMT

In article <1992Sep24.184611.1475@pictel.com> harling@pictel.com (Dan Harling) writes:

I said:
   >
   >I have been watching this thread for a long time Noel, and I have to
   >say that you hit it right on the dot.  I was hoping someone would mention
   >that verse...besides to be at a more literal level concerning judgement,
   >does it say do not judge?  No, it says do not judge lest you be judged...
   >and in some verses be judged by the same measure you judge others.  In 
   >other words, knowing this conditional, you may judge accordingly...and
   >to do so in love not spite.

Harling replies:

   Matthew 7:1 reads:
	   "Do not judge, or you too will be judged." (NIV)

   In Luke 6:37, Jesus says,
	   "Do not judge, and you will not be judged.  Do not condemn, and
	   you will not be condemned.  Forgive, and you will be forgiven."

   In the latter case, the commentary reads, "Jesus did not relieve his
   followers of the need for discerning right and wrong (cf. vv. 43-45),
   but he condemned unjust and hypocritical judging of others."

   That's not "...judging of others' actions", but "...of others".  While
   I will attempt to draw the distinction below, let me start out by
   saying that some people's posts say that they are doing the former,
   but sound to me more like the latter.

Ok I understand where both sides of the judgement spectra are coming
from. :)  Judgment as I was referring was more of a discerning nature,
which in my opinion is still considered judging... I think we try to 
make a clear differentiation between the two...but to be frank, I find
both terms to intertwine quite closely... In a society that uses the
"Thou shall not judge..." to deflect many of the arguments the church 
has used to uphold morals and the like, I would be opted to say that 
even today many look at discerning good from evil as being judgemental.
My point was that if you are in a position to make a judgement (or in
this case a discernment...for thse who don't like the word judgement) 
concerning a brother or sister in the Body, you must rebuke them out 
of love... Perhaps many thought I was referring to judging them and
then alienating them and condemning them.... Not so.  I believe this
is what we were told not to do (that many on this newsgroup have reiterated)
or else face the consequences.... But, if we are to live righteous lives
we will have to judge...ack I mean discern and rebuke at times. :)

   > > Consider that this judgment (i.e., within the Church) is done
   > > corporately, not individually.  If a brother is sinning, and refuses to
   > > repent when confronted individually and in the presence of two or three
   > > brethren, then the matter must be brought up before the Church.  If the
   > > Church agrees that he needs to repent, and he refuses to do so, the
   > > Church must excommunicate him, until such a time as he repents.
   >
   >Exactly....and I believe we witnessed a similiar action by Cornerstone
   >on Mike Warnke...which as many know had been trying to clear the air
   >with Mike privately since at least 1988... He rejected them and after
   >4 yrs of prayer...they brought it out to the "church" (us Christians).
   >Why?  For us to jeer Mike? No, to make a discerning judgement about the
   >issue in accordance to our own lives and perhaps sway Mike into repentance.

   I have not read the article, but unless Cornerstone said that
   "Christians should have nothing to do with Mike Warnke", all they have
   done is criticize his actions, which is perfectly acceptable when done
   in love.  If the Cornerstone article does indeed move to excommunicate
   Mike from Christian fellowship (which may be justified, if the
   accusations are true), then it is appropriate if and only if the people
   at Cornerstone know enough about the man to make such a decision
   authoritatively.  This suggests that members of his church should also
   be in agreement, a subject that I have never seen brought up in the
   discussion.

Yes, I agree...and I would like to say that I don't know U2 personally
and have not sat around condemning their music or their participation in
the MTV music awards or the like...but I have made a judgment about them
warning others to be careful...simply based on the fruits of their work.
I believe they are as accountable to the rest of the Body (if they are 
indeed of the Body) as we are.  Perhaps even more so, since they have so
many fans...people of all ages follow them everywhere...follow their every
word (which is why I would venture to point out that they are in a 
leadership position...whether they want to or not).  You do not have
to know someone so well...to make discernments...we may see this by their
fruits.  Of course, this sort of discernment via actions is limited, 
but I hope we do not confuse avoiding condemning others with a hey
"none of my business" stance...we are family... We have a spiritual
obligation to our brother and sisters to help them keep the straight
path...

   > > Lest we confuse judgment with discernment on an individual level, let
   > > me clarify that I believe that we as Christians are given the ability
   > > to discern between Good and Evil, and that we should do so with
   > > everything we see and hear.  However, when I see someone who is
   > > sinning, that does not mean that I have the right to "judge" him, by
   > > declaring that he is subject to God's wrath and excommunicating him, on
   > > my own.  The focus of condemnation should be on the sin, but all too
   > > often it appears to be focused on the sinner instead.
   >
   >I think Daniel said it well... Our obligations to our brother and sisters
   >is greater than just pattin gthem on the back and smiling when we see them
   >at church.... Is it not also to help them to keep focus in walkin gthe
   >walk and following Him.

   You make it sound like I was lamenting how Christians fail to point out
   sin in the lives of others!  What I have seen in this newsgroup is just
   the opposite: we tend to point out sins and differences of conscience
   alike, and unilaterally conclude that we, as Christians, should "have
   nothing to do with them".

Well, no I was agreeing on the part about focusing on the sin not the sinner
bit... However, I would wonder how many on the NET use the excuse of
not judging as an excuse to ignore the sins of others....

   While we are *required* to discern between good and evil in our actions
   and in those of others, we do *not* have the authority apart from the
   Church to take that observation a step further, conclude that people
   are "unrepentent sinners", and call for their excommunication (e.g.,
   demand that others "have nothing to do with them").

And, I agree....if I even implied condemnatiuon, I take it back...it 
was not the message I was trying to get through.

   The only representatives of the Church who are in a position to decide
   whether a person is unrepentant of sin are those who are in close
   fellowship with him.  In the case of U2 and Mike Warnke, I suspect that
   rules out most of the readers of this newsgroup.

Where does it say that in the Bible???  If this is the case, then missionary
work is totally unjust (and in some cases it has been).  People who go
out over seas and begin rebuking a people for their sins without getting to
know them (each and everyone personally).  What about Paul and his letters?
Do you think he knew every single person in all those churches? Yet he 
rebukes them, judging that they are bickering among each other..etc..etc.
You don't have to know them or fellowship them to know whats going on...
Do we need to know a prostitute personally to know that they are sinning?
Some people are totally surrounded by non-Christians...and any Christian
who approached them would be unjustified to say anything in terms of
repentance...simply on the basis of not knowing them?  I think thats a bit
off.  Certainly we are not their to be hostile and dogmatic in our belief,
but certainly this stance you suggest we take should be used wisely...I
am sure many would agree that Prince is unrepentant of sin... Yet, you think
we should say, "Hey, can't make that judgement...you see, we don't fellowship
with him." 

   Daniel A. Harling                        (harling@pictel.com)


					JCHO@nmsu.edu