From: pharvey@quack.sac.ca.us (Paul Harvey)
Subject: Re: Is satan really evil?
Organization: The Duck Pond public unix: +1 408 249 9630, log in as 'guest'.
	<1992Nov19.160418.27942@cs.yale.edu>
Date: 20 Nov 1992 06:17:43 UTC

rescorla@rtnmr.chem.yale.edu (Eric Rescorla) writes:
>>rescorla@rtnmr.chem.yale.edu (Eric Rescorla) writes:
>>pharvey@quack.sac.ca.us (Paul Harvey) writes:
>>>>rescorla@rtnmr.chem.yale.edu (Eric Rescorla) writes:
>>>For instance, Lucifer
>>>is only mentioned in one place, Isaiah, and it's quite clear that
>>>he is the King of Babylon, not any sort of divine figure whatsoever.
>>Are you refering to Isaiah14:12?
>>(KJV) How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!
>>*how* art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
>>(JPS) How are you fallen from heaven, O Shining One, son of Dawn!(d) How
>>are you felled to earth, O vanquisher of nations!
>>d: A character in some lost myth.
>>By the way, Lucifer is a Latin word meaning morning star or light
>>bearing, lux = light + ferre = to bring.
>Yes, I'm quite aware of what it says. You don't think that Isaiah wrote
>in Latin, do you? He certainly didn't use the word "Lucifer".
>The catch is that the KJV authors were quite aware of the Lucifer
>mythos, and therefore used the name.
>If you check out the context, it's in a series of oracles against
>various nations: Moreover, the text is quite clear:
>Isaiah 14.4 "You will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon."
>The next 17 verses are that taunt. It doesn't have anything to
>do with angels at all.

OK, now we are getting somewhere. I realize this is like pulling teeth
but we are making progress. Now, about your original statement above.
Now, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I think we are in
agreement on a few things here. Like, for instance, Lucifer, being a
Latin word, is not to be found in the Hebrew book of Isaiah and
furthermore, there is no Hebrew word for Lucifer to be found in that
text. OK, so far? And finally, there was never a Babylonian king by the
name of Lucifer. Fair enough? So, we are in agreement that your original
sentence is incorrect? You said:
>>>For instance, Lucifer
>>>is only mentioned in one place, Isaiah, and it's quite clear that
>>>he is the King of Babylon, not any sort of divine figure whatsoever.
And, in fact, the truth is that the name Lucifer is *never* mentioned in
the Hebrew book of Isaiah even in Hebrew and it's quite clear that
Lucifer was *never* the King of Babylon despite what certain
propagandist may like to claim.

>>>In either case, it's not grounded
>>>in the text, and it's far from clear that it was a common belief
>>>at the time the NT waws being written. I suggest you go back
>>>and check the original texts to see what they really say.
>>Original texts? Do you mean the Hebrew scriptures? Of course it's not in
>>there, Judaism is pure monotheism. And you'll find only a hint that
>>there was a war in Heaven led by Satan, but no details in the "official"
>>Protestant Greek Gospel.
>What are you talking about? "Official Protestant Greek Gospel."

KJV? Ring any bells? You know, Apocrypha? You did know that the Roman
Catholic and Protestant Bibles are different, didn't you? It seems that
there is a bit of a discrepancy as to which books are and are not the
"official" word of God.

>>That's because somebody edited the stories out.
>>And who could that have been? The church lady?
>Noone edited the bloody stories out. It's simply a much later myth.
>Stop being so paranoid, eh?

Then I guess the mention of a war in heaven in KJV is another one of
those prophesies? Or maybe it was a hook left in for the planned
sequels? And who is this Noone fellow anyway? And why isn't Barton Fink
mentioned at all in the Bible? Or aluminum siding salesmen? Well, at
least I have faith that Elvis will one day come out from hiding and
proclaim the new Kingdom of Rock and Roll. I hear rumors that The King
is working on a soon to be released ska beat album. Yes, Yes. You can
talk about the mamba, and talk about the chacha, but when you're talking
rockin' steady, jah betta be ready. Rock stead easy, steady rock easy.
Trod true the valley yet fear no evil. I trod true this valley and I know 
it well. Oh, and one more ting, The King be comin' bach wit dreads mon, 
natty dreadlock. Sima-simalac child, running wild.
Xref: sparky talk.religion.misc:21515 talk.philosophy.misc:2533