HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: dlhanson@nap.amoco.com (David L. Hanson )
Subject: Re: I won
Summary: crazy idea
Organization: These are my opinions.
Distribution: na
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 17:25:01 GMT

In article <1992Nov9.182002.17736@cbnewsi.cb.att.com> klf@cbnewsi.cb.att.com (karen.l.fenton) writes:
>Newsgroups: misc.education
>Path: apctrc!uc.msc.edu!noc.msc.net!umn.edu!The-Star.honeywell.com!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!linac!att!cbnewsi!klf
>From: klf@cbnewsi.cb.att.com (karen.l.fenton)
>Subject: Re: I won
>Organization: AT&T
>Distribution: na
>Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 18:20:02 GMT
>Message-ID: <1992Nov9.182002.17736@cbnewsi.cb.att.com>
>Summary: crazy idea
>References: <hunter-051192110844@158.185.20.246> <8NOV199200272917@comet.nscl.msu.edu>
>Lines: 27
>In article <8NOV199200272917@comet.nscl.msu.edu>, burtt@comet.nscl.msu.edu (BRIAN BURTT) writes:
>> In article <1992Nov08.033354.24640@mwc.vak12ed.edu>, wwarrick@mwc.vak12ed.edu (William D. Warrick) writes...
>> 	Sit in on classes, and hold teachers accountable if they are teaching
>> poorly (as well as reward those who are teaching well).  I.e., get some
>> idea of what is going on in the school(s), rather than just going to 
>> the appointed board meetings.
>> 	If you are feeling really daring and liberal, try to convince your
>> other board members to do the same.
>> --Brian Burtt
>> Undergraduate major in physics and mathematics
>> Michigan State University
>> burtt@lynch.nscl.msu.edu
>> 
>
>
>This is absolutely precluded by most union contracts I've seen.
>And even if (IF!) one were allowed to do this, I'd like to see
>a show of hands from all of you who feel that *I*, a software
>developer with no training whatever in education methodology, classroom
>techniques, psychology, or staff development/evaluation, should be
>allowed to sit in and formally evaluate teacher performance.
>

My hand goes up very high.  Do not let the educational professionals
intimitate you like this.  You represent the parents and the taxpayers
in your community.  You are NOT a puppet of the superintendent and
school administration.  The public school should be teaching what and
in the way the parents want within the means of all the taxpayers.
The "educationists" have been running the system too long.

(I would love to run for the local school board but as a relatively new
resident, who home schools, and loathes what is going on in the public
schools, I probably couldn't win ;) )

Signature follows:

"Train up a child the way he should go and when he is old he will not 
depart from it"
=========================================================================
David L. Hanson       Internet --> dlhanson@nap.amoco.com
Amoco Corporation     X.400    --> A=attmail,P=amoco,S=Hanson,G=David,I=L
Any opinions expressed are my own!
From: mcdermot@pele.cs.unm.edu (John McDermott)
Newsgroups: misc.education
Subject: Re: I won
Date: 12 Nov 92 21:36:52 GMT
Article-I.D.: pele.BxMHDD.B7G
Distribution: na

In article <1992Nov9.182002.17736@cbnewsi.cb.att.com> klf@cbnewsi.cb.att.com (karen.l.fenton) writes:
>In article <8NOV199200272917@comet.nscl.msu.edu>, burtt@comet.nscl.msu.edu (BRIAN BURTT) writes:
>> In article <1992Nov08.033354.24640@mwc.vak12ed.edu>, wwarrick@mwc.vak12ed.edu (William D. Warrick) writes...
>> 	Sit in on classes, and hold teachers accountable if they are teaching
>> poorly (as well as reward those who are teaching well).  I.e., get some
>> idea of what is going on in the school(s), rather than just going to 
>> the appointed board meetings.
>> 
	[stuff deleted]
>
>
>This is absolutely precluded by most union contracts I've seen.
	[stuff deleted]
>
>It's all *so easy* when you don't know the laws or limits, isn't it???
That's what's gotten us into the mess education is in now, the laws and the
limits.  If someone is elected to a school board, the voters who elected
him or her feel he or she IS qualified to set in and evaluate the system.
That's the point of the election!
>Karen
--john


-- 
John McDermott					505/897-2064 H/W
mcdermot@rye.cs.unm.edu		(The facts/opinions above are MINE, MINE, MINE)
[ UNM only lets me use this account because they are nice.  I have no 
	relationship with them whatsoever (besides being friends).]
Newsgroups: misc.education
From: dhosek@cbrown.claremont.edu
Newsgroups: misc.education
Subject: Tell me about Chapter One funding
Date: 9 Nov 92 20:18:50 GMT
Organization: Quixote Digital Typography

One of the points in Clinton and Gore's _Putting People First_ is
"Make educational opportunity a reality by increasing Chapter One
funding for schools in disadvantaged neighborhoods..."

Can anybody elaborate on what Chapter One funding covers?

-dh
Newsgroups: misc.education
From: dhosek@hmcvax.claremont.edu
Subject: Innovative school programs
Organization: Quixote Digital Typography
Date: 7 Nov 92 02:46:35 PST

About a month or so ago I heard a report about a school district
somewhere in NYC (Brooklyn?) which had instituted a school choice
within their district. One of the innovative ideas was having
multiple "schools" in a building, each with its own specialty.
Does anyone know where I can get more information about this
program? While I'm at it, how about pointers to other innovative
programs for revitalizing education in a district.

-dh
Newsgroups: misc.education
From: wkl1@Ra.MsState.Edu (Wing-Keong Loke                                               the consummate chronic prevaricator)
Subject: Re: 2-dimensional grading system (was Re: What can one do for the bright?)
Organization: Mississippi State University
Distribution: usa
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1992 22:01:25 GMT

In article <1992Nov5.181557.24749@elmer.is.ussprint.com> dons@is.ussprint.com (Don Stadler) writes:
>>At the risk of sounding like Attilla the Hun, or one of his many clones,
>On tests I
>found that overstudy made me go stale, so I would do my readings, review,
                                  ^^^^
	Another way of putting it, you became bored out of your skull.  I
have a history profs who hand out 3 essay questions which two would be]
picked for the test next week.  We only have to do one.  I never prepared
an outline for nay of the essays.  All I do is take a look at them and as
I study, think about the relations between what I'm studying and the
given test questions.  My lowest essay grade so far is an 87, with the
hishest 99 (which I actually did the LEAST studying for.  Amazingly
enough, by paying attention and reading lightly, I had enough infor-
mation to tackle the test, but since I didn't even bother to think much
about the test questions, I was really working hard at making various
associations on the day of the test, i.e. I got creative.  |To bad, I've
never been able to repeat the experience.  
	So, I feel like, the more I spend time memorizing, the less really
good stuff I'm going to produce.  Not that memorizing details won't bring
good grades.  Memorization brings good grades!  The difference is that
by memorizing too hard, I have too many details in my head and all I do
during tests would be just to reproduce them or parrot what has been
said before.  And memorization makes me bored out of my skull because
I already "know" the stuff being tested on and feel like an automaton.
It's like going through a whole slew of courses without thinking!
	So sometimes I deliberately or subconciously flubb the damn
test!  Then I take a gander at the test results and go...shit!! what
happened?!...then the fun begins because I start thinking again, which
is why I'm very anti-grade giving.  The good grades alwyas don't really
tell how much you've thought about the stuff you've learned, i.e. you
know the stuff, but how about using them in unique situations?  I've
had friends who didn't dare try new stuff or do stuff which they're not
sure of because they'd get a bad grade.  I always tell them,  look,
you already know the stuff you're putting on paper, but this idea that
you have you're not sure about.  Why don't you put it one paper and let
the teach worry about whether it's right or wrong.  This way, you get to
learn something new!


Newsgroups: misc.education
From: Crawford_Kilian@mindlink.bc.ca (Crawford Kilian)
Subject: Re: Re: EDUCATION, MONEY, AND THE FACTS OF LIFE
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 16:33:17 GMT

Don Pettengill and I appear to be knocking one another senseless in an
attempt to reach the same destination.

I fully share his resentment of the school bureaucracy's self-aggrandizement,
which appears to be somewhat worse in the US than here in BC though it's
still pretty bad. Educators have a bad habit of identifying a problem and
then hiring someone (usually a non-teacher who doesn't have the problem) to
solve it. Sometimes this works; you hire a speech therapists and some of the
kids with speech problems get better. Sometimes it doesn't, but the response
is always to hire more bureaucrats to deal with it. The solution to the
problems of democracy is more democracy, but the same isn't true of
bureaucracy.

The point I was trying to make was that public and parental pressure is
rightly asking us to tailor our programs to our students rather than the
other way around. We are doing the best we can (and often that's quite well
indeed), but the costs of doing so are higher than the public and parents are
ready to accept. This puts us in a classic double-bind.

Aggravating the problem is the little-recognized attitude of many
politicians: that education is politically more useful as a problem than as a
solution. Here in BC we had a classic school-bash by our political masters in
the early 80s (though they'd been in power for most of the previous 30
years); it worked beautifully to distract people from the real problems of
our economy. Here in Canada the federal government is now trying the same
thing (though education is a purely provincial responsibility under our
constitution).

Yes, we could do with fewer bureaucrats. But they're a relatively minor
problem compared with political harassment.
From: klf@cbnewsi.cb.att.com (karen.l.fenton)
Newsgroups: misc.education
Subject: Re: I won
Date: 12 Nov 92 19:50:49 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: AT&T

In article <1992Nov11.174458.2871@cbnewsl.cb.att.com>, bkb@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (brian.bebeau) writes:
> 
> [My wife the teacher just called was I was typing this. She says
> she'd be *delighted* to have a school board member observe her
> class, it's so rare. In her experience (13 years) the best school
> board members are the ones who get involved in the schools.]

Last year I was invited by the teachers of several middle
school classes  to visit and observe their classes. The union
was furious and tried to stop the visits. In the end I was
legaly permitted to do it because the teachers insisted and
went on record that it was their *own idea* and they weren't
forced into it. But enormous pressure was placed on them by their 
union, and since then no one has been invited to visit a class. 
Sad, isn't it?

>    ................... Concentrate on what you can do to free 
> teachers to *teach*. 

We try hard to do this. And we request and receive a *lot* of
information and advice from our teaching staff. AND we listen and
take it seriously.

> BTW, it seems like every school system is heavy with bureaucracy.
> Finding some way to streamline administration would certainly
> save a lot of money, without increasing class size. And it's
> certainly within the realm of the school board. Take a look
> at busing costs too, it's often a huge chunk of change.
> 
Not us! We're running too lean, in fact. At less than half the 
average, we're running into reporting/management/accountability
problems.
Also, we *did* drop unrequired bussing this year: liberated $1.2 million
for classroom use. What happened next? All the parents who are
silent in the face of 20 year old textbooks and elementary classes 
of 35 went nuts! After a *BITTER* -almost violent- summer, they
forced the local municipality to provide it for a year, expecting us
to reassume the cost now or next year.

Re P.J.O'Rourke - "X-Y=A Big Stink" where (paraphrasing), X is
what people want (which is everything in the world) and Y is what
they're willing to pay for it (which isn't much, and they're
going to cheat on that), and the gap between those 2 produces
the advertised result. The politician whom everyone loves is the
guy who promises that X will grow as Y shrinks.
In my little corner of the world, X is *sacred* since it's
"for the little children" (don't you *care*!!????) and my Y is
the only one voters *actually get to vote on*. 

Karen
Xref: sparky misc.education:4243 k12.chat.teacher:4874 talk.politics.misc:59539 soc.culture.usa:8436 soc.culture.african.american:10927
From: ndallen@r-node.gts.org (Nigel Allen)
Newsgroups: misc.education,k12.chat.teacher,talk.politics.misc,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.african.american
Subject: School Board Association Recommends New Partnership for Education
Date: 10 Nov 92 22:57:11 GMT
Organization: Echo Beach, Toronto

Here is a press release from the National School Boards Association.

 School Board Association Recommends New Partnership for Education
 To: National Desk, Education Writer
 Contact: Jeremiah Floyd of the National School Boards Association,
          703-838-6722

   ALEXANDRIA, Va., Nov. 10   -- On the occasion of American 
Education Week, the National School Boards Association today 
called upon President-Elect Clinton to forge a new federal,
state and local partnership in public education.
   "We believe that such a partnership will form the foundation by
which our nation can develop the high skilled work force needed to
lead us to prosperity in the internationally competitive world of
the 21st Century," said NSBA President Dr. E. Harold Fisher of Blue
Mountain, Miss.
   To achieve this objective, NSBA urges that President-Elect
Clinton and personnel in his administration meet with key sectors of
the education, business and other public sector organizations to
develop a comprehensive national strategy for educational
excellence and equity that emphasizes the critical importance of
putting adequate resources into the local communities across our
nation.  Thomas A. Shannon, NSBA Executive Director said that,
"From these meetings, we would hope that coordinated and
collaborative nationwide effort toward educational improvement will
become a primary element in President-Elect Clinton's legislative
program for the first 100 days.  The emphasis must be on local
communities because that is where education takes place."
   The leadership of NSBA believes there is a strong connection
between education and our nation's future success.  NSBA urges
President-Elect Clinton's active leadership in bringing together
these forces which ultimately will determine whether our nation and
our people will succeed in building world-class public education
in each local community in the United States.
   NSBA is a not-for-profit federation of state associations of
local school boards, the Hawaii State Board of Education, the
boards of education of the District of Columbia, the U.S. Virgin
Islands and the commonwealth of Puerto Rico.
 -30-
From: dhosek@linus.claremont.edu
Newsgroups: misc.education
Subject: Looking for So  Cal teachers & other school-involved persons
Summary: Potential school board candidacy
Keywords: teachers policies
Date: 7 Nov 92 03:24:11 GMT
Reply-To: dhosek@hmcvax.claremont.edu
Followup-To: poster
Distribution: ca
Organization: Quixote Digital Typography

I'm toying with running for the local school board. However, I
will not run if I don't feel that I can contribute anything to
improve the district (why bother otherwise). As part of the
discernment process on this, I'd like to talk to southern
california teachers and other people involved with schools in
some official role. If you're interested in letting me know your
concerns, please send me e-mail at dhosek@hmcvax.claremont.edu
with your phone number so I can call you (or alternatively, if
you'd prefer not to give out your phone number, I'll send you
mine and you can call me).

-dh
Newsgroups: misc.education
From: Crawford_Kilian@mindlink.bc.ca (Crawford Kilian)
Subject: Re: Funding position in Californian universities
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 16:11:08 GMT

I confess to a mild bafflement in Brian Yoder's response to some of my
comments about funding problems in post-secondary. After some grumping and
crabbing about misuse of university funds, Brian quotes my comments about the
inability of the professoriat to come up with real funding solutions, and
then suggests:

I think you have not met enough professors, or you wouldn't say things like
that.

After 25 years in post-secondary education in Canada, 10 years as an
education columnist, and a stint teaching in China, I've met a lot of
professors. The whole point of my comment was that the professoriat tends to
take the status quo for granted, and to be reluctant to find new ways to do
good research and teaching without costing us all quite so much. I only wish
they'd apply their grantsmanship skills to this kind of end.

By the way, I took another look at the Chronicle's chart of funding changes.
California has actually lost 18% (as has Virginia) in constant dollars in the
last two years. Arkansas, for what it's worth, increased post-sec spending by
17% in constant dollars. That reflects well on Bill Clinton, but doesn't
change my basic point--that we can't go on pouring more and more money into
post-secondary at the present rate, but we *also* have to supply
post-secondary education to more and more people.


--
Crawford Kilian   Communications Department   Capilano College
North Vancouver BC Canada V7J 3H5
Usenet: Crawford_Kilian@mindlink.bc.ca
Internet: ckilian@first.etc.bc.ca

Newsgroups: misc.education
From: hunter@master.lds-az.loral.com (Bill Hunter)
Subject: I won
Followup-To: misc.education
Organization: Loral Defense Systems - Arizona
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 17:41:32 GMT

I won the race for School Board in my community.  Now the hard part, can I
really make a positive difference?

Bill Hunter
Newsgroups: misc.education
From: Crawford_Kilian@mindlink.bc.ca (Crawford Kilian)
Subject: Re: Funding position in Californian universities
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1992 17:52:17 GMT

Colin Bell of Cambridge University writes:

A friend of mine is intending to do a PhD in the USA, possibly at either
Berkeley or Stanford, getting funding from the university in question if
possible. He's worried about what effects the current financial crisis
in California will have on these two universities and his funding. If
there's someone out there who knows what the situation's like, could
they e-mail me with pertinent information? I will of course pass it onto
anyone who asks me for it.

The issue deserves more than individual discussion, and this newsgroup is as
good a place as any.

I don't have details on Berkeley or Stanford, but a friend of mine at UC
Riverside last summer earned a promotion and a 5% pay cut simultaneously--and
this is a renowned scholar with several books to his credit.

Last week's issue of The Chronicle of Higher Education displayed a map of the
US showing relative funding levels of post-secondary in the various states;
California's funding has dropped 12% in the last 2 years. This does not bode
well for one of the biggest and best college and university systems in the
world. What it bodes for individual graduate students I don't know; much may
depend on the political fashionability of the discipline and the research
field, or even the financial creativity of particular scholars.

Perhaps the most striking aspect of the North American crisis in
post-secondary education is that the professariat--by definition among the
best and brightest minds we have--hasn't come up with any useful solutions.
--
Crawford Kilian   Communications Department   Capilano College
North Vancouver BC Canada V7J 3H5
Usenet: Crawford_Kilian@mindlink.bc.ca
Internet: ckilian@first.etc.bc.ca

Newsgroups: misc.education
From: blum@medici.ils.nwu.edu (Dan Blum)
Subject: HELP!  Looking for old educational game
Reply-To: blum@ils.nwu.edu
Organization: The Institute for the Learning Sciences
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 00:48:30 GMT

I'm looking for a copy of "Jabberwockey," an old educational
meta-simulation designed and published by John Washburn.  Any help
greatly appreciated.  If this isn't the right group to post to, please
direct me to a better one.  Thanks.

--
______________________________________________________________________
Dan Blum           Institute for the Learning Sciences   Room 327
blum@ils.nwu.edu   1890 Maple Ave., Evanston, IL 60201   708-467-2306

"The only actual `Socratic' was Socrates, who may or may not have 
 actually existed, as he himself would doubtless be the first to admit
 if he were alive today."
______________________________________________________________________
Newsgroups: misc.education
From: klf@cbnewsi.cb.att.com (karen.l.fenton)
Subject: Re: I won
Organization: AT&T
Distribution: na
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 18:20:02 GMT
Summary: crazy idea

In article <8NOV199200272917@comet.nscl.msu.edu>, burtt@comet.nscl.msu.edu (BRIAN BURTT) writes:
> In article <1992Nov08.033354.24640@mwc.vak12ed.edu>, wwarrick@mwc.vak12ed.edu (William D. Warrick) writes...
> 	Sit in on classes, and hold teachers accountable if they are teaching
> poorly (as well as reward those who are teaching well).  I.e., get some
> idea of what is going on in the school(s), rather than just going to 
> the appointed board meetings.
> 	If you are feeling really daring and liberal, try to convince your
> other board members to do the same.
> --Brian Burtt
> Undergraduate major in physics and mathematics
> Michigan State University
> burtt@lynch.nscl.msu.edu
> 


This is absolutely precluded by most union contracts I've seen.
And even if (IF!) one were allowed to do this, I'd like to see
a show of hands from all of you who feel that *I*, a software
developer with no training whatever in education methodology, classroom
techniques, psychology, or staff development/evaluation, should be
allowed to sit in and formally evaluate teacher performance.

Thanks. I didn't think so.

It's all *so easy* when you don't know the laws or limits, isn't it???
Karen

Newsgroups: misc.education