HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: strange@acpub.duke.edu (Michael B. Scher)
Newsgroups: sci.anthropology
Subject: Re: The Bible In The Context of Its Time
Date: 12 Oct 92 04:06:36 GMT
Organization: Duke University; Durham, N.C.

In article <1992Oct12.020728.9112@midway.uchicago.edu> coonstot@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>In article <5955@news.duke.edu> strange@acpub.duke.edu (Michael B. Scher) writes:
>>In article <1992Oct11.033626.10551@midway.uchicago.edu> coonstot@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>>>In article <5942@news.duke.edu> strange@acpub.duke.edu (Michael B. Scher) writes:
>>  Well, while Anthro is concerned occasionally with the individual, it is not
>>focussed as a field on the individual.  I found the following on-line 
>>description of the U.C. Santa Cruz anthro program (and some ungergrad course
>>names) recently.  Perhaps it will give some context.  Apologies to anyone
>>at Santa Cruz offended by the theft and/or deletions of irrelevant portions.
>>-------------------------clip clip---------------------------------
>>
>>Anthropology studies human beings from multiple viewpoints--peoples and
>                      ^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>cultures throughout the world and through eons of geologic time.
>
>[Stuff deleted about anthropology as a field of study of human
>essence, and sex roles, etc.  Plus a description of archaeology
>and physical anthropology.]
>
>>Because anthropology is concerned with understanding human interaction,
>                                                      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>[Course listings deleted]
>
>  I suspect we have been in agreement in principle--perhaps I wasn't
>making myself clear.  Thanks for the recap.

     I took you as indicating that anthro wass concerned with the individual.
"Human beings" is of course our topic area, but that is also the topic area
of sociology, psychology, the humanities in general, anatomy, and so forth.
It hardly indicates a prediliction for individual-oriented studies.  If you
meant only to say we are not only concerned with the sum-total outcome of social
forces, then I can agree, but I took you to mean that anthro was concerned
with describing the bahavior of individuals as individuals; we are not, and
any study purporting to be anthro while doing so is far better described as
some odd ethnographic psychology.  Anthro is concerned with the actions of
individuals as members of cultures, social groups, and the like, but if
they have quirks, we don't care about them, except perhaps as to how the
culture looks on those quirks, and the sort of quirks that might arise in
the culture.  We really are not equipped to study any form that is not
shared between members of the culture; thus, as such, individuals don't
concern anthropology, except as they exist as members of a culture and
members of the human species.


-- 
Mike Scher                      strange@hercules.acpub.duke.edu
Duke University -- Durham, NC:  Law and Cultural Anthropology 
This post expressly not for use as toilet tissue.
(K) 1991 Net Prophet Productions - All lefts deserved.
Newsgroups: sci.anthropology,soc.culture.netherlands
From: muts@fys.ruu.nl (Peter Mutsaers)
Subject: Re: Female breast (bosom) experience wanted!
Organization: Rijks Universiteit Utrecht
	<1992Oct7.184752.16039@fwi.uva.nl> <BvtoDq.LLH@apollo.hp.com>
	<MUTS.92Oct9094629@ruunfs.fys.ruu.nl> <annius.718633380@freyr>
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 14:10:09 GMT

On Fri, 9 Oct 1992 12:23:00 GMT, annius@nanna.research.ptt.nl (Annius Groenink) said:

>Peter Mutsaers.         |================================================ 
>muts@fys.ruu.nl         |        Quod licet bovi, non licet Jovi
  AG> 				  ^
  AG> 				  ^

  AG> Let's all start talking Latin on this group. Quod facit Jupiter
  AG> sed boves non possunt.

Thank you for regarding me Jupiter :). (However I must admit my
knowledge of Latin is not enough anymore to do this reply in Latin
without a vocabulary.)
--
_________________________________________________________________________
Peter Mutsaers.         |================================================ 
muts@fys.ruu.nl         |        Quod licet bovi, non licet Jovi
From: coonstot@quads.uchicago.edu (charles orville onstott)
Newsgroups: sci.anthropology
Subject: Re: Changes in Methodology
Date: 14 Oct 92 23:07:25 GMT
Article-I.D.: midway.1992Oct14.230725.8134
Reply-To: coonstot@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations

In article <6015@news.duke.edu> strange@acpub.duke.edu (Michael B. Scher) writes:
>In article <1992Oct14.004945.2088@midway.uchicago.edu> coonstot@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>     What may have changed most in the field is that we are now relatively
>intolerant of ethnographic work that is not self-critical, self-reflective,
>and does not demonstrate an understanding of the limits of interhuman and
>intercultural interpretation (translation).  But people in the discipline
>HAVE been at that for years, and to lump what is becoming mainstream into
>"new" and what went before into "old" is unrealistic and ahistorical.  Better
>to discuss more specific categories, if you must categorize (and I, being a
>phenomenological anthropologist, think we must), and leave the invective-like
>"new" and "old" behind.

  Fair enough!  I am not terribly stuck on the demarcation as
"new" verses "old"; nor do I particularly like the evolutionary
significations that those words imply.  I left them in quotation
marks primarily because this is how I often hear the methods
categorized.  Even categorization of these vauge "new" anthropoligists,
as you pointed out, is problematic.  In addition, the historical impression
that such terminology brings about is certainly in conflict with
the ordinary conception of historical facts.

>Mike Scher                      strange@hercules.acpub.duke.edu

BCnya,
  Charles O. Onstott, III
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Charles O. Onstott, III                    (coonstot@midway.uchicago.edu)
Graduate Student in Religion and Human Sciences
The University of Chicago Divinity School

"Les dieux existent : c'est le diable."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: sci.anthropology
From: mls@cbnewsm.cb.att.com (mike.siemon)
Newsgroups: sci.anthropology
Subject: Re: homosexuality and evolution
Summary: group selection is highly doubtful
Date: 9 Oct 92 18:09:50 GMT
Article-I.D.: cbnewsm.1992Oct9.180950.15929
Organization: AT&T

In article <BvtM0p.7uE@inews.Intel.COM>, mdouglas@cad067.NoSubdomain.NoDomain
(Maria Douglas ~) writes:

> I've understood it that homosexuality does not so much increase the
> individual's fitness as much as the race as a whole because homosexuality
> represents the vast *variety* of sexual behaviors we have as Homo sapiens.
>  The more different behaviors we have,
> the more likely it is that our species will continue...?

> If this is dribble, please clue me in--I haven't been in on the whole thread.

Well, it isn't exactly "dribble" but there are fact no demonstrable cases
of "group selection" and since the development of modern evolutionary
theory over the last 50 years (since the "neo-Darwinian synthesis") the
previously popular notion of species, or higher level taxonomic groupings
undergoing selection in any sense other than the summation of individual
survival and fitness has been fond very much wanting.

A vague "intuitive" sense that maintaining a large variety of phenotypes
might make a species survival "more likely" tends to disintegrate when
faced with the actual mathematics (or historical record, as in the allo-
metric increase beyond all reasonable bounds of antlers on "Irish elk.")
You might want to inquire on this point in sci.bio (or, if you are brave,
in talk.origins.)
-- 
Michael L. Siemon		   "Oh, stand, stand at the window,
					As the tears scald and start;
mls@usl.com			   You shall love your crooked neighbor
standard disclaimer			With your crooked heart."
From: gil@Gilsys.DIALix.oz.au (Gil Hardwick)
Newsgroups: sci.anthropology
Subject: Taussig's work
Distribution: world
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 92 02:32:11 GMT
Organization: STAFF STRATEGIES - Anthropologists & Training Agents

Thanks very much for the reference on Taussig, Christopher. If anyone
would like to see a discussion based on this work it would be very
welcome indeed; perhaps allowing contributors a reasonable time to
prepare. Any experts fully au fait with the material please do not
hesitate.

Our University Bookshop advised me this morning that Taussig's "The
Nervous System" was published in March of *this* year. I have been
awaiting the development of his thesis from "The Devil and Commodity
Fetishism in South America" (1980) and "Shamanism, Colonialism, and
the Wild Man" (1987), and very keen to follow it up for comparison
with our material on Aboriginal Australia.

Looking forward to it.

Gil

--
Gil Hardwick                                      gil@Gilsys.DIALix.oz.au
Independent Consulting Ethnologist                            3:690/660.6
PERTH, Western Australia                                 (+61 9) 399 2401
   * * Sustainable Community Development & Environmental Education * *
From: ph111-bx@violet.berkeley.edu (;;;;7202)
Newsgroups: sci.anthropology
Subject: Re: Sexism vs. Racism (was Re: Female breast (bosom) expe
Date: 14 Oct 1992 03:26:26 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: violet.berkeley.edu

In article <-1366868729snx@Gilsys.DIALix.oz.au> gil@Gilsys.DIALix.oz.au
(Gil Hardwick) writes:
>
>In article <1bcpl3INN695@agate.berkeley.edu> ph111-bx@violet.berkeley.edu writes:
>
> > I was asking out of simple, sincere lay curiosity?
>
>Yes, of course you were.
>
>But what is you are asking? Specifically, that we might reply within
>the limits of two or three 80 x 25 screens of germane and relevant
>information which may be of benefit to you.
>
>That is all. Please relax and help us a little to help you . . . 8-)

Oh I'm quite relaxed, but thanks for your concern.

Let me try again.

I am interested in the behavioral aspect of sexism, e.g. objectification,
unwelcome remarks, explicit sexual harassment, etc., of men toward women
and its understanding as having purely cultural origins like racism, or
whether instead it is the animal nature of males and culture serves to
curb it.  I would like to know what the current thinking is on this among
cultural, and I suppose physical, anthropologists.

I welcome whatever can be said on the subject, summary or detail, within
the confines of a net post.  Thank you.
Newsgroups: sci.anthropology
From: claird@NeoSoft.com (Cameron Laird)
Subject: [SOC]  Are there individuals in anthropology? (was: The Bible In The Context of Its Time)
Organization: NeoSoft Communications Services -- (713) 684-5900
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1992 18:21:33 GMT

In article <1992Oct11.033626.10551@midway.uchicago.edu> coonstot@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
			.
			.
			.
>[Re: Debate over function of anthropology.]
>
>Either I have not made myself clear, or I am in total misunderstanding
>of one of my own fields of study.  I argue that anthropology
>studies the interaction of the individual, the participation of
>the individual. This should not be confused with the individual-type
>study that the field of psychology would make.  I see that
>my abbreviated focci of fields did not make this explicit.  But
>my understanding is this:  interaction of individuals which may
>or may not involve institutions.
			.
			.
			.
Without disputing what Messrs. Scher and Hardwick
have written, I express my sympathy for Mr. Oonstot's
position.  One of the institutional strengths of
North American anthropology, particularly in comparison
to sociology (note that Mr. Oonstot attends the UoChi),
is that it doesn't depreciate the individual.  Anthro-
pologists are willing to discuss Ishi as a
culture-bearer while, in the USA, sociologists give the
impression that they would judge "N=1!" and reject any
such attempt.
-- 

Cameron Laird
claird@Neosoft.com (claird%Neosoft.com@uunet.uu.net)	+1 713 267 7966
claird@litwin.com (claird%litwin.com@uunet.uu.net)  	+1 713 996 8546
Newsgroups: sci.anthropology,soc.culture.netherlands
From: annius@nanna.research.ptt.nl (Annius Groenink)
Subject: Re: Female breast (bosom) experience wanted!
Keywords: femal breast bosom
Organization: PTT Research
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 16:54:24 GMT

helene@dcs.warwick.ac.uk (Helene Blankespoor) writes:


>I am sick of men accusing all women of being blind feminists. I don't call

That's just a reaction of women blindly calling all men sexist, I suppose :)
(the style of reaction is rather coarse \ldots I hope you don't mind if I
apologize in advance :)
-- 
Annius Victor Groenink      Universiteit Utrecht      PTT Research Leidschendam
Mathematics/Comp. Sc.        avgroeni@cs.ruu.nl       +31 70 3325445 (weekdays)
Atari ST/Music          A.V.Groenink@research.ptt.nl  +31 70 3464732 (evenings)
_____________My opinions are my opinions____________  +31 5700 29396 (weekends)
Newsgroups: sci.anthropology,soc.culture.netherlands
From: annius@nanna.research.ptt.nl (Renate Annius)
Subject: Re: Female breast (bosom) experience wanted!
Keywords: femal breast bosom
Organization: PTT Research
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 16:51:02 GMT

helene@dcs.warwick.ac.uk (Helene Blankespoor) writes:

Helene, right.

>Tevens ben ik het helemaal eens met Marieke en Esther !!!!

Marieke, right?
Esther, right?

I agree with the three of you 2.

>Groetjes,
>Helene.

groetjes,

Renate.
Newsgroups: sci.anthropology,soc.culture.netherlands
From: nelson_p@apollo.hp.com (Peter Nelson)
Subject: Re: Sexism vs. Racism (was Re: Female breast (bosom) experience wanted!)
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 21:32:42 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Corporation, Chelmsford, MA
Keywords: femal breast bosom

In article <1av2mvINNsi9@agate.berkeley.edu> ph111-bx@violet.berkeley.edu (;;;;7202) writes:
>In article <Bvr413.Fxx@nic.umass.edu> s1006420@titan.ucc.umass.edu
>(If you want peace work for justice) writes:
>>I see a lot of sexism on USENET, such as the post above. I am not
>>in favor of sexism, racism, etc. and I also do not the like the
>>condescending (when not demeaning) way which sexist men refer to women,
>>an exact paralel of the way racist whites address people of color.
>>I think this needs to improve.

  I didn't know Usenet had "sweeps week".  

>To me it seems that since sexism has a biological component, e.g. the
>hormonal response engendered in a male when looking at an attractive
>female, it would be difficult if not impossible to eliminate through
>just education.

  Hold it, hold it: *sexism* is caused by hormones?  And you're 
  posting from Berkeley??   I thought you had to have brains to
  get accepted there!   

  There's a BIG difference between being sexually attracted to 
  someone and sexism.  There's nothing about being sexually attracted
  to someone that should prevent you from treating that person, or
  that gender for that matter, with respect and dignity.  Hormones
  have nothing to do with sexism, any more than they do with racism
  or getting falling-down-drunk.  


---peter


Newsgroups: sci.anthropology,soc.culture.netherlands
From: cooper@cbnewsg.cb.att.com (Ralph 'Hairy' Moonen)
Subject: Re: Female breast (bosom) experience wanted!
Followup-To: soc.culture.netherlands
Summary: haha
Keywords: femal breast bosom
Organization: AT&T
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 09:20:32 GMT

In article <mrs.718391084@athena.research.ptt.nl>, mrs@athena.research.ptt.nl (Marieke Schuijt) writes:
> annius@sif.research.ptt.nl (Annius Groenink) writes:
> 
> >wuytswin@athena.research.ptt.nl (Wuijtswinkel R. van) writes:
> 
> [... insulting questions deleted ...]
> 
> >>Please give you view about this. It should be non-medical!
> >>Give you own thoughts, opinions or other reactions to the e-mail address below:
> 
> >>If somebody already published about this subject, please let me know.
> 
> >>You may also FAX to the following number: +31 40 53 51 85.
> 
> >OK girls. Put your breasts on the scanner and FAX them to PTT Research. Will you
> >bring me a copy, Ronald?
> 
> I find this a very insulting suggestion and I must say that I feel
> ashamed that both of you work for the same company as me.
> 
> >>Greetings Ronald.
> 
> >By the way, why do you consider this to be `Dutch Culture?' I think the
> >misunderstandings about the Dutch and sex are bad enough as they are.
> 
> Are they? I never realized this! How did you get such knowledge? 
> 
> But seriously I think that both of you should be hung from a big tree by
> the balls for 48 hours and hopefully you will then see that it is very
> inapropriate to make fun of women's breasts! 
> 
> 	No regards this time, Marieke

Nou nou Marieke, kom op meid, geintje tussendoor kan toch wel? Ik weet 
zeker dat je beide collegaas zich zullen onthouden van verdere opmerkingen
en ik hoop dat jullie geen ruzie krijgen in de kantine of zo. Bovendien
moet je eens kijken op andere nieuwsgroepen waar de vrouwen ook wel eens
wat minder positief over bepaalde mannelijke delen oordelen. Dan zul je
zien dat het allemaal relatief is en het wel meevalt. Ik vindt dat wat 
sex en erotiek betreft de Nederlanders zo ongeveer het meest nuchtere volk
ter wereld zijn, en dat zo moeten houden. Dus geen Amerikaanse taferelen
graag, waar de PC-lobby over een lullige (ooops!) opmerking dagen kan
doorzagen.

Nou, groeten vanuit Hilversum, en laten we even in vrede leven!

--Ralph Moonen
Newsgroups: sci.anthropology,soc.culture.netherlands
From: mrs@athena.research.ptt.nl  (Marieke Schuijt)
Subject: Re: Female breast (bosom) experience wanted!
Originator: mrs@athena.research.ptt.nl
Keywords: femal breast bosom
Organization: PTT Research
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 20:29:50 GMT

s1006420@titan.ucc.umass.edu (If you want peace work for justice) writes:

>In article <annius.718390197@freyr> annius@sif.research.ptt.nl (Annius Groenink) writes:
>>wuytswin@athena.research.ptt.nl (Wuijtswinkel R. van) writes:
>>
>>>Hello,
>>
>>>I've got a special question for everyone who wants to respond. It may look a
>>>bit strange, but a friend of mine wants to write an article about the
>>>following:
>>
>>>    The femal bosom (breast).
>>
>>A very good friend :-) :-) [wicked willie?]
>>
>>>    - What is so fascinating about it?
>>>    - What can you say about the sexological aspects?
>>>    - What can you say about the sociological aspects?
>>>    - What can you say about the anthropological aspects?
>>
>>You tell us :)
>>
>>>Please give you view about this. It should be non-medical!
>>>Give you own thoughts, opinions or other reactions to the e-mail address below:
>>
>>>If somebody already published about this subject, please let me know.
>>
>>>You may also FAX to the following number: +31 40 53 51 85.
>>
>>OK girls. Put your breasts on the scanner and FAX them to PTT Research. Will you
>>bring me a copy, Ronald?

>I see a lot of sexism on USENET, such as the post above. I am not
>in favor of sexism, racism, etc. and I also do not the like the
>condescending (when not demeaning) way which sexist men refer to women,
>an exact paralel of the way racist whites address people of color.
>I think this needs to improve.

I totally agree with this and I still think that Ronald and Annius
should be hanged from a tree by the balls for 48 hours!

	Marieke
From: gil@Gilsys.DIALix.oz.au (Gil Hardwick)
Newsgroups: sci.anthropology
Subject: Women's breasts commentary
Distribution: world
Date: Fri, 09 Oct 92 09:01:09 GMT
Organization: STAFF STRATEGIES - Anthropologists & Training Agents


In article <BvtK6H.Dx2@comp.vuw.ac.nz> maven@kauri.vuw.ac.nz writes:

 > Let's accept that some people are embarrassed enough about the topic
 > that they have to deal with it with some weak jokes and get on with
 > what we were talking about. The original question was worthy of some
 > discussion, particularly as it DOES lead in to just this sort of
 > dangerous territory. Maybe we should all engage in what once upon a
 > time was called "reflexive anthropology."

Thanks Jim, and Richard. I must myself respond and risk adolescent
remarks on the topic, but it does merit some attention.

Culturally, the apparent American (and other Western) obsession with
the "ideal" female breast appears something of an anomaly, since in
most other cultures where I have been able to trace distinct patterns
of female carnal iconography the image of the vulva is by far the most
powerful.

The female breast bears little consideration; perhaps it is something
only infants cry for, although few appear very attractive as such. By
contrast the symbolic vulva and vagina and their ritual functions are
central to many important ceremonies, as well as to the development of
the identity of women as the both creative and procreative entities
forming the hub of their particular community.

Generally speaking, it is this women's identity that men respond to in
counterpoint to their own identity as men. Indeed many of the men's
ceremonies, especially initiation circumcision at puberty and later
adult subincision, appear to run parallel with the women's ceremonies
and apparently seek to emulate them.

None of this research is comprehensive or anywhere near complete, as
fieldwork is still being carried out by the few female anthropologists
we have active. It is a difficult area for a male to work in.

However, the following may be information:

        Ortner S.B. and Whitehead H. (eds)  1981
           Sexual Meanings
           Cambridge: CUP

        Caplan P. (ed)  1987
           The Cultural Construction of Sexuality
           London: Tavistock


Gil

--
Gil Hardwick                                      gil@Gilsys.DIALix.oz.au
Independent Consulting Ethnologist                            3:690/660.6
PERTH, Western Australia                                 (+61 9) 399 2401
   * * Sustainable Community Development & Environmental Education * *
From: gil@Gilsys.DIALix.oz.au (Gil Hardwick)
Newsgroups: sci.anthropology
Subject: Demarcation of Anthropology
Date: 15 Oct 92 23:48:47 GMT
Organization: STAFF STRATEGIES - Anthropologists & Training Agents


In article <1992Oct14.010849.2580@midway.uchicago.edu> coonstot@midway.uchicago.edu writes:

 > Demarcation of Anthropology
 >  
 > CO -- Charles Onstott
 > GH -- Gil Hardwick
                                     .
                                     .
                        [Discussion deleted as read]
                                     .
                                     .
Thank you again, finally.

Now that you have decided to comply with the established discourse of
Anthropology on a public forum, hopefully we will see more of the value
arising from your studies.

--
Gil Hardwick                                      gil@Gilsys.DIALix.oz.au
Independent Consulting Ethnologist                            3:690/660.6
PERTH, Western Australia                                 (+61 9) 399 2401
   * * Sustainable Community Development & Environmental Education * *
From: gil@Gilsys.DIALix.oz.au (Gil Hardwick)
Newsgroups: sci.anthropology
Subject: Sexism vs. Racism (was Re: Female breast (bosom) experien
Distribution: world
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 92 04:11:19 GMT
Organization: STAFF STRATEGIES - Anthropologists & Training Agents


In article <1av2mvINNsi9@agate.berkeley.edu> ph111-bx@violet.berkeley.edu writes:

 > To me it seems that since sexism has a biological component, e.g. the
 > hormonal response engendered in a male when looking at an attractive
 > female, it would be difficult if not impossible to eliminate through
 > just education.

You are confusing "sexism" as a cultural artifact with "lust" as a
hormone driven behaviour, which have no correlation whatsoever.

--
Gil Hardwick                                      gil@Gilsys.DIALix.oz.au
Independent Consulting Ethnologist                            3:690/660.6
PERTH, Western Australia                                 (+61 9) 399 2401
   * * Sustainable Community Development & Environmental Education * *