HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: horen@rs.com (Jonathan B. Horen)
Subject: Re: He Who Saves a Single Soul...
Organization: Renaissance Software, Inc.
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1992 20:00:04 PDT

In article <bdm.714534253@cs.anu.edu.au> bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay) writes:
>Nora wrote:
>>>Nabil wrote:
>>>Why then in 1948 when the Arab majority opposed the establishment
>>>of the Jewish state did not rule?
>
>>The Arab "majority" tried to oppose the establishment of the Jewish
>>state in the UN's General Assembly, which is the majority-rule body
>>among nations, and got voted down by majority rule. I believe they
>>got one vote from a non-Muslim country, that being Cuba; and that's
>>even with having tried to buy Costa Rica's vote and G-d alone knows
>>how many others. They were voted down anyway. 
>
>What a weird definition of democracy you have.  The UN vote on
>Palestine was taken against the wishes of a large majority of the
>inhabitants, and there is no way around it.  

Your comment about "weird definition of democracy" is out of place. 
It is evident that Nora's response was directed *solely* to Nabil's
wording of "...when the Arab majority opposed..."

As for the UN vote being taken against the wishes of a large majority
of the [its] inhabitants, well, this is both irrelevant and incorrect.

It is irrelevant in that the purpose of the UN, or any large representative
legislative body, is to act on-behalf/in-the-best-interests of those whom
it represents. If a majority (or a powerful-enough minority) of the
inhabitants of any member of the UN is dissatisfied with the representation
of its UN ambassador, then they should appoint a new ambassador. If one
doesn't like the way the body votes, then one can "put up or shut up".

It is incorrect in that the Arabs were neither a "large majority" nor a
"majority" of the inhabitants of Palestine in 1948. Nor have they been
so at any point in time since 1948. And there is no way around it.

>In any case, I question your description.  The necessary number of
>votes was only obtained because the US actively bullied a number
>of countries into changing sides.  All this is well documented. 

"Bullying"? You mean they took the other delegates' lunch money??

This is called "politics". This is called "life". This is called
"compromise". Get used to it -- it's well documented. 

 +------------------------+--------------------------------------------+
 | Jonathan B. Horen      | I have three principles:                   |
 | SysAdmin/TechWriter    |   NO to 2 million Palestinian citizens!    |
 | email: j.horen@rs.com  |   NO to a Palestinian state!               |
 | Tel:   (415) 856-8000  |   NO to a withdrawal to '67!               |
 |                        |            -- Yitzhak Rabin, Israeli PM    |
 +------------------------+--------------------------------------------+
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:18817 talk.politics.soviet:7116 soc.culture.greek:7721 soc.culture.europe:7495
From: oueichek@ngulu (Ibaa Oueichek)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe
Subject: Re: Where Does 'Tam*'s Ignorance Stem From? Greek Anti-Semitism.
Date: 19 Aug 92 08:30:07 GMT
Followup-To: talk.politics.mideast
Organization: IMAG, University of Grenoble, France
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4

craiga@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Craig R Albrechtson) writes:
: In article <kutluk.714044231@ccl.umist.ac.uk> kutluk@ccl.umist.ac.uk (Kutluk Ozguven) writes:
: >In <Bsvwxn.I1J@news.cso.uiuc.edu> ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis ) writes:
: >> Yo, jerks. Got offended when I wrote that Turks don't work hard in the
: >> summer?  Afraid that next months paycheck from Turkey won't arrive?
: >
: >> Come on creeps. Still have many mails unanswered.  Move your asses
: >> and work harder.
: >
: >
: >I wonder how other Greeks netters feel with such a racist languge directed to
: >the entire Turkish nation. 
: >
: >Kutluk
: 
: Ahh, look guys this is TALK.POLITICS.SOVIET so keep your stupid turkish-greek
  GRIN, i thought it was TALK.POLITICS.MIDEAST !!!!!!!.
: flame war off this news group.   As far as I see it and I am sure that
: many out there will agree that posts of this nature have no place on 
: this newsgroup.  

  I think ALL readers of  TALK.POLITICS.MIDEAST agree also. We'll start a
  collect to hire an "Armenian terrorist" to go and hunt this Mutlu. But he
  pretends to cost a bundle (n'est-ce pas Mutlut ?), so we may need some 
  contribution from the guys at TALK.POLITICS.SOVIET who are suffering with
  us (the hunter-ian accepts only hard currency).
: 
: Actually I think this group should be moderated so to keep the endless
: posts of Mutlu and others who wish to waste our time having to read 
: posts which have little to do with the soviet union.

  Which soviet union ?. Ah, you mean the ex-evil empire, or you don't ?.
: 
: What do you other people think???


: -- 
: ************************************************************************
: * Craig Reese Albrechtson (Slider) * University of Wisconsin Milwaukee *
: * The usual meanless disclaimers apply * craiga@csd4.csd.uwm.edu       *
: ************************************************************************

--
Sham(u) ya tha (s)seif(u) lam yaghib(i) | Ibaa Oueichek. oueichek@imag.imag.fr
    Ya jamal(al) majd(i) fi(l) kutub(i) | LABORATOIRE 	BULL-IMAG
Kablak(i) (t)tareekh(u) fi thulmaten    | Grenoble. 
    Baadak(i) staula ala (sh)shuhub(i)  |
					
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Israel: Chutzpah at the Negotiating Table
Organization: The Department of Redundancy Department
Distribution: na
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 92 21:26:58 GMT

In article <10315@sun13.scri.fsu.edu> stricher@masig.fsu.edu (Char Aznabul) writes:

>Someone else proposed that some Arab states give up territory to Israel
>as gesture of good will. My intial thought was "no way". But on further
>reflection, I think this is a good thing. On one condition.
>
>That the indigenous population be given full citizenship in their new
>country, and that their rights be respected.

I think that this is a marvelous idea.  I would recommend that Jordan 
give the Occupied East Bank to Israel and that Israel then give it to
the Palestinean Arabs who live there.  They could then give themselves 
citizenship in their new country.

Alternately, Jordan could simply give the Occupied East Bank back
directly to the indigenous people of the area and they could set up
their own state and call it anything they wish (except for already
copyrighted names like Israel, Macedonia, etc.). 

>Fair enuff, eh?

Definitely.

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com               Pat Paulsen for President
American-Occupied New York                    This year he has a real chance!
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: bx573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alan H. Stein)
Subject: Re: Israel: Chutzpah at the Negotiating Table
Reply-To: bx573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alan H. Stein)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 92 20:53:31 GMT


In a previous article, stricher@masig.fsu.edu (Char Aznabul) says:

>+ Since Israel has never had any territorial claims against any of its
>+ neighbors, that's a non-issue as far as Israel is concerned.  It would
>
>Non issue? Would you care to make the claim the Israel WILL NEVER have
>ambitions on her neighbor's land? Nice that you trust the Israeli
>government.

One can never say never, but the issue has never been one of Israel
coveting its neighbors' land, but of its neighbors' coveting the
destruction of Israel. 
>
>Someone else proposed that some Arab states give up territory to Israel
>as gesture of good will. My intial thought was "no way". But on further
>reflection, I think this is a good thing. On one condition.

I have never seen any proposal that Arab states give up territory to
Israel.  The closest to that have been suggestions that Israel not give up
quite as much territory to Arabs as the Arabs demand.

>That the indigenous population be given full citizenship in their new
>country, and that their rights be respected.

Isn't that just what Israel offered to those in Israel, although it has
generally been refused?

>Fair enuff, eh?

Sure.  But those are all minor side issues.
-- 
bx573@cleveland.freenet.edu----Alan H. Stein----stein@uconnvm.uconn.edu
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: jars@milton.u.washington.edu (Juan Rodriguez-Sero)
Subject: Good bye, cruel e-conference!
Followup-To: talk.politics.mideast 
Summary: I have to log out of this e-conference 
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 04:03:51 GMT

Due to reasons of force majeure, I will have to stop reading this
interesting e-conference for a few months.  I will miss all the nice
people here (yes, there are some); peace be upon them, and upon the
not-so-nice too.

G-d bless you all!


Juan Antonio Rodriguez-Sero    | What others teach, I also teach; that is:
jars@u.washington.edu          | "A violent man will die a violent death!"
School of Oceanography, WB - 10| This will be the essence of my teaching.
University of Washington       |                     Lao Dzu
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: bx573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alan H. Stein)
Subject: Re: Dr. Arens and Israel
Reply-To: bx573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alan H. Stein)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 92 20:42:18 GMT


In a previous article, stricher@masig.fsu.edu (Char Aznabul) says:

>It could be an artifact of the inverse - that Israel, by 
>definition, is not capable of wrong. It's not been so long
>ago that any public disagreement with Israeli policy in the
>USA would have been automatically labeled "anti-semetic".

It used to be that Israel-bashers would wait until one of those rare
moments when an anti-semite was so accused before parroting the accusation
that anyone bashing Israel was accused of anti-semitism;  now it seems that
the bashers don't even wait for that.
-- 
bx573@cleveland.freenet.edu----Alan H. Stein----stein@uconnvm.uconn.edu
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,misc.headlines,talk.politics.misc,alt.conspiracy,alt.censorship
From: eggertj@moses.atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert x6127 g41)
Subject: Re: BACK TO LIMBAUGH'S SECRET NONAGENDA
Reply-To: eggertj@atc.ll.mit.edu
Organization: MIT Lincoln Lab - Group 41
	<1992Aug11.143055.17242@u.washington.edu>
	<EGGERTJ.92Aug11131118@moses.atc.ll.mit.edu>
	<1992Aug12.165048.21097@u.washington.edu>
Date: 12 Aug 92 16:05:10

In article <1992Aug12.165048.21097@u.washington.edu> jars@milton.u.washington.edu (Juan Rodriguez-Sero) writes:
>   In article <EGGERTJ.92Aug11131118@moses.atc.ll.mit.edu> eggertj@atc.ll.mit.edu writes:
>   >You should learn proper attribution techniques.
>
>   Maybe that is so; if that is the case (which you have not proved), I
>   will humbly try to learn.

And yet you make the same mistake again:

>   >In article <1992Aug11.143055.17242@u.washington.edu> jars@milton.u.washington.edu (Juan Rodriguez-Sero) writes:
>   >>   I called that list "your list" because it was included in a message
>   >>   you quoted, after which you commented that "victims of all those ac-
>   >>   tions by Israeli terrorists can be found in Lebanon". You choose to
>   >>   make the original comment. 
>
>   >No, I did not.  That comment was made in article <24615@castle.ed.ac.uk
>   >by egpv29@castle.ed.ac.uk (JHenderson).
>
>   Yes, you did; JHenderson enunciated a list; you commented that "the vic-
>   tims of such actions by Israelis can be found in Lebanon." That is the
>   comment of your I found (and still find) unacceptable

There is no reason for this confusion.  I went to the trouble of
finding the correct article for you.  You should read the
documentation for your news reader and see how you can access
referenced articles.  I will help you get this one:
___________________________________________________________________________
From: egpv29@castle.ed.ac.uk (JHenderson)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,misc.headlines,talk.politics.misc,alt.conspiracy,alt.censorship
Subject: Re: BACK TO LIMBAUGH'S SECRET NONAGENDA
Date: 7 Aug 92 09:07:02 GMT
Organization: Edinburgh University

In article <1992Aug5.221739.13160@bony1.bony.com> jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni) writes:
=>
=>Where are the burned out school buses, downed airliners, hijacked
=>cruiseships, bloodied airports, dead Olympics athletes, kidnapped 
=>diplomats and murdered schoolchildren that Arf proposes are victims 
=>of Israel's "terrorism"?  Where are the Leon Klinghoffers, Robert Stethems,
=>Colonel Higginses that have been murdered at the hands of Israeli "terrorism"?

Most of the above can be found in Lebanon. For others it's necessary to
go further afield, even as far as Los Angeles to find Alex Odeh.


-- 
-Jeremy Henderson            |  Anisotropic
 egpv29@castle.ed.ac.uk	     |  Density tensor!  Truly
       			     |  a wonderous thing.
			     |			(Joe Green)
___________________________________________________________________________

As you can see, the original list was constructed by Jake Livni (the
intellectual dishonesty was originally his), and its application to
Israel's activities in Lebanon was made by Jeremy Henderson.
--
=Jim  eggertj@atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU (Brad Hernlem)
Subject: Re: BILL CLINTON ON ISRAEL AND THE MIDDLE EAST
Reply-To: hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU (Brad Hernlem)
Organization: North Carolina State University
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 17:35:48 GMT

In article <1992Aug21.130711.17396@cbnewsl.cb.att.com>,
saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (samuel.saal) writes:
> In article <EGGERTJ.92Aug20165611@moses.atc.ll.mit.edu>
> eggertj@atc.ll.mit.edu writes:
> 
> >In article <1992Aug20.121545.23966@cbnewsl.cb.att.com>
> saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (samuel.saal) writes:
> 
> >>   In article <1992Aug18.152950.26710@ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM>
> >>   nabil@ncrcol.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM (Nabil Idriss) writes:
> 
> >>   >>                          The Bush Record
> 
> >>   >>The Bush Adminstration has gravely harmed our relationship with
Israel.  It
> >>   >>has:
> 
> >>   >>    o Pressured Israel to make once sided concessions in the
> >>   >>      peace process
> 
> >>   >     * Pressured the Arabs to make concessions too.
> 
> >>   Other than coming to the peace talks, please name one concession
the Arabs
> >>   have made.
> 
> >The Arabs have let the Israelis dictate who is to be on their
> >negotiation team.  This is not just a practical matter of prohibiting
> >the use of the talks by known terrorists (such as Arafat).  This seems
> >a major concession by the Arabs.
> 
> The simplest of safety concerns dictates that you don't bother talking to
> those who's avowed goal is your destruction.  Further, this isn't even a
> concession when the Palestinian delegates have openly conferred with the
> PLO/murderers and insisted they do nothing without the PLO's OK.

What does that say about Israel? -- that the PLO is anxious to talk
peace with Israel but Israel refuses (or at least so far has refused).
Does it make any sense to negotiate with people who will agree to
anything you say when it is the people who are less pliable that create
the real problems for you?  

Brad
From: arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Israeli Loan Guarantees
Date: 17 Aug 92 21:28:13 GMT
	<1992Aug13.203425.5994@bony1.bony.com>
	<1992Aug14.134659.25728@ncsu.edu>
	<1992Aug16.111256.16924@discus.technion.ac.il>
Organization: USC/Information Sciences Institute
In-reply-to: davidba@carmel.technion.ac.il's message of 16 Aug 92 11:12:56 GMT

In article <1992Aug16.111256.16924@discus.technion.ac.il> davidba@carmel.technion.ac.il (David Ben_Ami) writes:
>
> In article <1992Aug14.134659.25728@ncsu.edu> hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU (Brad Hernlem) writes:
> >
> >Actually, the settlements have not been frozen unless you consider
> >continued construction on settlements already under construction, a
> >"freeze". Also, there have been no guarantees, indeed it has been
>
> C'mon now, there's no use to stop buildings who are already practically
> finished (only roof etc.).

Perhaps.  But according to Rabin, building will continue on ALL
structures where it has begun, not just those that are almost finished.
So even where only foundation work has started, the building will be
completed.  And based on the fact that Shamir accelerated the pace in
his last few months, I would hazard the guess that there are more buildings
in their early stages than in their late stages of construction.
--
Yigal Arens   "He seems like an average type of man.  He's not, like, smart.
USC/ISI        I'm not trying to bag on him or anything, but he has the same
arens@isi.edu  mentality I have -- and I'm in the eighth grade."     Vanessa
               Martinez, after VP Quayle's visit to her school-LA Times 5/21
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: bv652@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ilan Uri Woll)
Subject: Re: Arab/Isreali Wars
Reply-To: bv652@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ilan Uri Woll)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 92 01:58:11 GMT


In a previous article, faris@sarcasm.trl.OZ.AU (Aziz Faris) says:

>Last week Ilyess Bdira indicated that Isreal's army is a myth and cannot fight a long
>war. This has generated some discussions about the definition of long wars and whether
>Isreal could win that way.

I did not read that article, but I suspect that it is correct.  Israel has
in the past always depended on advance intelligence and lightning quick
attacks to avoid long combat.  Since Israel is substantially outnumbered in 
people (I would suspect that Israel's entire population is less than that of
Cairo alone.

>I suppose if Clinton wins the election and the peace talks come to an end now that
>Isreal has the $10 B guarantee and unlimited support from a democratic adminstration,
>may be the Arabs should ask Isreal to fight a war using swords, sloagans, and sling
>shots. This way the Arabs will be guranteed a long war so they could win one.

You are incorrect on 2 counts.  1. Bill clinton has announced his support of
the peace process and 2. Rabin has continued to seek peacewith the Arab 
states and has even mentioned a possible meeting with Arafat.


>It appears that a large number of people are unaware that those wars were excersises so
>that the superpowers could vent some steam and test their weapons on the Isrealis' and
>Arabs with no clear victor in sight.
>A.Faris

True, although there is no doubt that the Israeli's have been the winners in 
the wars.  But, I hope they all decide to give peace a chance.

Ilan
-- 
---  !      ^    !\  !
 !   !     /-\   ! \ !
___  !__  /   \  !  \!  
                        Avoid cliches like the plague" George Shaw
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: anwar+@cs.cmu.edu (Anwar Mohammed)
Subject: Re: Dr. Arens and Israel
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 22:00:37 GMT

In article <1992Aug14.204218.8186@usenet.ins.cwru.edu> bx573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alan H. Stein) writes:
>
>In a previous article, stricher@masig.fsu.edu (Char Aznabul) says:
>
>>It could be an artifact of the inverse - that Israel, by 
>>definition, is not capable of wrong. It's not been so long
>>ago that any public disagreement with Israeli policy in the
>>USA would have been automatically labeled "anti-semetic".
>
>It used to be that Israel-bashers would wait until one of those rare
>moments when an anti-semite was so accused before 

OK, so anyone accused of being an anti-semite is automatically an 
anti-semite?  Perhaps your phrasing was a slip revealing your
true feelings.

>parroting the accusation
>that anyone bashing Israel was accused of anti-semitism;  now it seems that
>the bashers don't even wait for that.
>-- 
>bx573@cleveland.freenet.edu----Alan H. Stein----stein@uconnvm.uconn.edu


-- 
Anwar Mohammed                           Graduate Student
anwar+@cs.cmu.edu  (NeXTmail welcome)    School of Computer Science
Voice: +1 412 268 3043                   Carnegie-Mellon University
Fax:   +1 412 681 5739                   Pittsburgh, PA  15213-3890
From: rivk@quads.uchicago.edu (nora gayle rivkis)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Israel: Chutzpah at the Negotiating Table
Date: 14 Aug 92 17:16:57 GMT
Reply-To: rivk@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations

In article <1992Aug13.205455.9419@usenet.ins.cwru.edu> bx573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alan H. Stein) writes:
>
>In a previous article, stricher@masig.fsu.edu (Char Aznabul) says:
>
>>Adam Shostack writes
>>
>>+ Meet in the region, Cairo or Tel-Aviv should both be acceptable sites
>>+ to all parties.  Why are middle East peace talks taking place in
>>+ Washington?  Parties should negotiate with each other, not via Baker.
>>
>>Because nobody can agree on a place to meet that's acceptable to *all*
>>the participants and still be in the MidEast??
>
>You mean nobody but Israel.

Oh, come on, Alan! Israel can't find one that's acceptable to *all* the
parties either, and there's no earthly reason why they should be able to.
Yes, I want the talks in the mid-east too, or at least OUT of Washington --
I'd have coped with Rome or Madrid or Geneva just fine, but I want the US
gone from the equation and fast -- but they're within their rights to say
they want the discussion on neutral ground and it doesn't exist here. I
think Cairo should be acceptable to all sides, but I don't think Mubarak
wants them there -- too much potential for Egypt to get in hot water if
anything goes wrong. So what's wrong with putting it in a country nobody's
at war with right now, even if that has to be a little farther from home?

>bx573@cleveland.freenet.edu----Alan H. Stein----stein@uconnvm.uconn.edu

	-Nora
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: bx573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alan H. Stein)
Subject: Re: Kissinger, Ajami, and Rather display Anti-Arab Bigotry at Israeli Benefit
Reply-To: bx573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alan H. Stein)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 92 03:19:05 GMT


In a previous article, anwar+@cs.cmu.edu (Anwar Mohammed) says:

>
>I want to be careful that I am not perceived as perpetuating this notion that
>"Jews control the media", however, it is clear that there is a certain amount
>of difficulty in presenting reports critical of Israel without being branded an
>"antisemite" or "self-hating Jew"; certainly more difficulty than even in 
>Israel!
>
Methinks thou dost pretend too much.
>>
>>>	And perhaps the new media of this country will tell Henry
>>>Kissinger that he owes Arab people an apology.
>>
>>Only if we get to see a full transcript of the evening, to see what it
>>was Kissinger actually said.  I won't damn anyone on partial evidence
>>in a newspaper column.
>
>I second this request.
>
>>
>>Adam
-- 
bx573@cleveland.freenet.edu----Alan H. Stein----stein@uconnvm.uconn.edu
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,misc.headlines,talk.politics.misc,alt.conspiracy,alt.censorship