HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: albion@castle.ed.ac.uk (D J B Hunter)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: SCA and real-world heraldry.
Date: 30 Jul 92 17:07:03 GMT
Organization: Edinburgh University

Mikjal Annarbjorn <bq434@cleveland.Freenet.Edu> (Michael A. Chance) writes:
[About any possible problems with the fact that "Or, a laurel wreath
vert" appears in an Italian armorial]
>  Master Arval has made the argument that, even if such laws
>would forbid the use in real world usage, the SCA's usage is essentially
>that of "improvisational theater"; that is, our events, etc., are a
>re-creation of a general historical era, not a modern, real-world usage
>of heraldry.
>
>To date, to the best of my knowledge, no one has ever formally
>contacted any real-world heraldic authority (and several exist) to
>ask what the laws are within their jurisdiction regarding heraldic
>display within the context of what the SCA does.

I don't know if it would count as 'formal contact' but we have spoken on
this subject with the Lord Lyon, King of Arms for Scotland. He gave a
talk on Scottish heraldry to our group, which included the information
that under Scottish law, the Lyon Court has the authority to prosecute
for unauthorised use of arms (the example he gave was of the use of the
Scottish lion on a beer can: the brewery was fined, and an alternative
design for the can was produced (apparently through consultation with
the Court)).

In the ensuing questions we asked what the attitude was to the use of
heraldry in SCA-type activities, and his reply was essentially what
Arval is said to have suggested: it's not an attempt at `real-world' use
of the arms, but instead equivalent to using them in a theatrical
performance. In fact, he was rather positive about people being
sufficiently interested in the active use of heraldry, and saw no
problems with it at all.

I know that the Irish group has contact with the Irish College of Arms,
and I believe they have the same attitude (care to comment Seamus?).

yours in service,

Caitlin
From: chris@unicorn.resun.com (Chris Von Hendy)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Looking for Yuletide Celbration info.
Date: 29 Jul 92 06:08:49 GMT
Reply-To: chris@unicorn.resun.com
Organization: Metalogic, S.a r.l.
X-Mailer: uAccess - Macintosh Release: 1.5v3


In article <1992Jul13.112439.8691@bsu-ucs.uucp> (rec.org.sca), d000sca@bsu-ucs.uucp (Society For Creative Anachronism) writes:
> 
> Greetings from the Shire of Afonlyn!
> 
> Our group is looking to do a "traditional Yuletide celebration" this winter.
> 
> 1) Is there such a thing?

Most assuredly.  The Yuletide was a time of celebration as the point at
which the sun returned (the days began getting longer.)   Celebration
usually includes fires being lit and kept through the night, lots of
drink and lots of good cheer.  The Yule is the longest night of the
year, and provides a good excuse to party during the long winter
months.  The old Christmas tree lit with candles was probable taken
from a Yule tradition.

> 3) Can anyone suggest any easily-obtainable (ftp, interlibrary, etc.) sources
>    that would be helpful?

You might consider asking on one of the pagan newsgroups since this is
considered a many pagan holiday in this day and age.
> 
> Many Thanx,
> Gwydion et. al.
> 
> -- 
> Matt Stum                    Gwydion ap Myrddin       Ball State University
> 00mjstum@leo.bsuvc.bsu.edu   Shire of Afonlyn, MK     Muncie, IN  USA
> 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Von Hendy            "If we shadows have offended,
Escondido, California       Think but this, and all is mended,
ncr-sd!blkhole!chris  or    That you have but slumbered here,
chris@unicorn.resun.com     While these visions did appear." Puck
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: graydon@micor.ocunix.on.ca (Graydon)
Subject: Re: "Once upon a Weekend" demo tape
Organization: M.B. Cormier INC.
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 92 17:57:59 EDT

archer@utkux1.utk.edu (T. Archer) writes:

> In article <711615569.F00004@therose.pdx.com> Suze.Hammond@f56.n105.z1.theros
> 
> >TA>  From: archer@utkux1.utk.edu (T. Archer)
> >TA>  Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
> >TA>  In article <X67yNB4w162w@micor.ocunix.on.ca>
> >TA>  graydon@micor.ocunix.on.ca (Graydon) writes:
> >TA>
> >TA>  >I *loathe*, *loathe*, *loathe* being photographed, because I have
> >TA>     ^^^^^^^^  ^^^^^^^^  ^^^^^^^^
> >TA>  Why, why, why?  I have met several people who feel this way, and I
> >TA>  have yet
> >TA>  to understand it.  
> >How about many years of bad-looking photos?
> 
> >I will consent for good friends, or to preserve a truly special moment, but 
> >I hate it nonetheless.
> 
> >IS it any business of yours, BTW?
> 
> Sure.  I like to take photgraphs, but as  practicing libertarian, I try to 
> give people their choice in any activity we share.  In asking what the big 
> deal is, I am trying to be tolerant of what seems to me to be an 
> unreasonable and irrational attitude.  I'm jsut trying to understand here.
> 
> Look at it from my perspective.  In taking a candid photo I am, in My 
> perception, hurting no one.  Is it unreasonable for me to at least wonder 
> why something that brings me pleasure should be denied for apparently no 
> reason?
> 
> I just want to understand.
> -=-=-
> T. Archer  PA142548@utkvm1.utk.edu
> University of Tennessee
> "Vote Dempublican, it's easier than thinking." -- Unknown
> -=-=-

The very nearly entire reason for being at an SCA event (as opposed
to associating with these people, which goes on at times other than
events) is to 'be medieval'.  Cameras, even more than Coke cans,
casual bad manners, and talk of computers, are *not* medieval.
Get your pictures some other time; people who like to be photographed
will be willing to arrange a time.

From the point of view of those of us who are trying to be medieval,
or at least as little un-medieval as we can be, at events, in conformance
to the stated purpose of the things, really don't like someone practicing
their obtrusively modern hobby in the middle of things.

It's a lot like bringing in a portable table saw and making tourney
chests - the results may be welcome, but the process is death on
the mood.

Graydon

        Graydon the Curious         /graydon@micor.ocunix.on.ca
  Skraeling Althing, EAldormere, MK / "Nihil est quin obsisti possit"
From: whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Steward's office restructuring.
Date: 27 Jul 92 19:35:43 GMT
Reply-To: whheydt@PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA

In article <Bs24yo.CE9@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca> aryk@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (A.J.S. Nusbacher) writes:
>In article <1992Jul27.153347.2082@progress.com> schuldy@progress.COM (Mark Schuldenfrei) writes:
>
>>In response to the continuing growth and evolution of the Society, we
>>are restructuring the office of Steward/President to permit more focused
>>management and day-to day supervision. 
>
>Finally, just what the SCA needs!  More top-down management!

Part of the reasoning behind this was the dearth of volunteers to be
Steward (or at least . . .  *acceptable* volunteers).  The Steward's
Council is intended (in part) to create a pool of people who could
take over the top job.

	--Hal

        Hal Ravn, Province of the Mists, West Kingdom
        Wilson H. Heydt, Jr.,  Albany, CA 94706,  510/524-8321 (home)
-- 
Hal Heydt                    |    "Boycott Time-Warner"
Analyst, Pacific*Bell        |         --J. Danforth Quayle
510-823-5447                 |    "... kill all the lawyers."
whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM    |         --William Shakespeare
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: tbarnes@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (thomas wrentmore barnes)
Subject: Re: Why not pentacles:
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 16:41:10 GMT

Good Gentles All, 

Anyone who argues that the pentacle is a good, period charge with
Christian symbolism is right.

Anyone who argues that the pentacle has a mundane image problem (however
wrongly deserved) is right.

But, there is a Laurel Ruling and a BoD ruling against pentacles, so any
argument of "right" is pointless, untill the law is changed.

If the are enough people who feel strongly enough that pentacles should
be allowed, they should lobby the BoD until the rules are changed. Until
then, a more productive line of discussion would be to discuss we can
overcome the negative symbolism of this charge in the minds of the
Religious Pinheads who are so quick to defame our Society. Anyone know
of a good p.r. firm we can hire? 

Hoping this thread dies off soon,

       Lothar von Katzenellenbogen \|/
                                    0
From: salley@niktow.canisius.edu (David Salley)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Sword speed (was Re: pentacles)
Date: 23 Jul 92 16:36:21 GMT
Organization: Canisius College, Buffalo NY. 14208

Euriol of Lothian writes:
> I heard that one time. (Begin rumor) that one of the officers took his
> radar gun out to check how fast the fighters swing their swords. He was
> to have clocked Duke Radnor's Sword Tip to be going over 200mph. (End rumor).
> Does anybody know the truth to this, or is it just another one of those
> legends that frequent the campfires.

I'd call it a campfire legend.  Corvette owners often get through speed traps
because there's not enough metal in the car's fiberglass body to return the
radar waves well.  A radar gun might pick up a fighter's metal armor, but I
doubt his sword.

On the other hand, Fast Edd**WHAP!** "..er..ah..Good morning your excellence,
I didn't hear you come in."  I mean Vicount Sir Edward Zifran of Gendy *has*
been filmed throwing a sword blow.  Frame 1: Sword leaves his shoulder,
Frame 2: Sword is between them, going over the other fighter's shield,
Frame 3: Sword is connecting with the other fighter's helmet.  Three frames
at 24 frames per second equals 1/8 second for the shot.

                                                       - Dagonell

SCA Persona : Lord Dagonell Collingwood of Emerald Lake, CSC, CK, CTr
Habitat	    : East Kingdom, AEthelmearc Principality, Rhydderich Hael Barony
Disclaimer  : A society that needs disclaimers has too many lawyers.
Internet    : salley@niktow.cs.canisius.edu
USnail-net  : David P. Salley, 136 Shepard Street, Buffalo, New York 14212-2029
From: carl@silver.lcs.mit.edu (Carl J.M. Alexander)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Why not pentacles:
Date: 23 Jul 92 13:36:54 GMT
Organization: Organization???

In article <711716686.F00002@therose.pdx.com> Suze.Hammond@f56.n105.z1.therose.pdx.com (Suze Hammond) writes:
>CJ>  From: carl@silver.lcs.mit.edu (Carl J.M. Alexander)
>CJ>  Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
>CJ>
>CJ>  > The  Society for Creative Anarchism or S.C.A.  sponsors periodic
>CJ>  "Ren-
>CJ>  > aissance  Fairs"
[etc.]
>
>I don't see any open reference to satanism here.
 
That's because the references were in a part of Ioseph's post that I did
not (for bandwidth reasons) quote.  They are there.
 
>                                                  I do think a suit might be
>threatened, especially since it can readily be proved that the SCA is *not*
>the sponsor of the Renn Faire movement, but their guest betimes.
 
It's not libel to publish something about someone that is untrue, nor is
it libel to publish something about someone that denigrates that person's
reputation:  It *is* libel to publish something about someone that is
both untrue *and* denigrating to his reputation.  I don't see a court
viewing the untrue association of the SCA with Rennfairs as denegrating.
 
>                                                                 In any
>case, if the BoD allows this fruitcake cop to go unchallenged it will be
>tantamount to *admitting* we are exactly what he says, in the eyes of many
>law-enforcement agencies. We especially need to make it crystal clear that
>we don't recruit anybody for anything except the SCA itself, and that many
>of us are Christians, Jews, or other mainstream religions.
 
I agree with you here.
 
Alexander of Kiev                       Carolingia, East
 
Carl Alexander                          Harvard Square, Cambridge, Mass.
carl@silver.lcs.mit.edu
From: chris@unicorn.resun.com (Chris Von Hendy)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Rape, women, carrying weapons
Date: 23 Jul 92 17:58:16 GMT
Reply-To: chris@unicorn.resun.com
Organization: Metalogic, S.a r.l.
X-Mailer: uAccess - Macintosh Release: 1.5v3


In article <archer.126@utkux1.utk.edu> (rec.org.sca), archer@utkux1.utk.edu (T. Archer) writes:
> 
> In article <1992Jul22.181209.24994@samba.oit.unc.edu> Ann.Feeney@bbs.oit.unc.edu (Ann Feeney) writes:
> 
(Ann.Feeney writes a very good reason not to carry a knife for defense
from a rapist.)
> 
> This is not accurate.  Last years Uniform Crime Report, issued annually by 
> the FBI, showed resistance in ANY form is better than non-resistance.  
> Further, less than 7% of weapons used in self-defense were turned against 
> the victim.

My first comment is that I would be dubious of any report on the
effectiveness of anything regarding rape coming out of the law
enforcement branches.  Not that they would print deliberately false
information, but rather the number of unreported attacks would tend to
make their findings extremely unreliable.

With regards to carrying a weapon against attack, any weapon is only as
good as the person trying to use it.  A knife or even a gun in the
hands of someone who is uncomfortable with the weapon or does not know
how to use it is very likely to be useless at best and at worst end up
in the attackers possession.  My recommendation would be to not carry
any weapon until you have been trained in how to use it.  Also the best
protection against rape that I can think of is to stay with a group of
people at all times.  

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Von Hendy            "If we shadows have offended,
Escondido, California       Think but this, and all is mended,
ncr-sd!blkhole!chris  or    That you have but slumbered here,
chris@unicorn.resun.com     While these visions did appear." Puck
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mjc+@cs.cmu.edu (Monica Cellio)
Subject: Pennsic weather update
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 92 14:29:47 GMT
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon

It's been cooler than normal and very rainy here in Pittsburgh.  We never
hit the normal July temperatures in the 90s.  (Well, maybe once.)  In the
last two weeks we've had rain nearly every day -- though not steadily.

Be prepared.

Ellisif
"It's too close to Pennsic to worry about a tornado.  Keep sewing!"
			- a laurel who probably wishes to remain anonymous


Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mfactor@taronga.com (Marco Landin)
Subject: Looking for friends in Trimaris .:
Reply-To: mfactor@taronga.com (Marco Landin)
Organization: Taronga Park BBS
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 16:43:50 GMT


	Hearty salute to all good Ladies and Gentles:
	
	The Love of my life is slinking off to Loyola University in New Orleans. 
I am but a knavish urbane residing in the Barony of Stargate, Ansteorra
(mundanely known as Houston, Tx).  She wishes not to lose touch with the
Society, and therefore I plead to thee, if thou doth reside within the
area of New Orleans (HA! I don't even know its Society name!), to please
avail yourselves as hospitable welcomers to my poor, sweet Mari Vie, who
shall feel like a fish out of water if she doesn't find people who dress
funny and WHACK each other in the weekends.
	
	If you live in the area, or know where she can go to contact SCA there,
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE OH PLEASE Email us some info.  We shall be most
ingratiated and will include you in our celestial namedropping.
	
	Yours in service,
	Marcos maria Montenegro Del Diablo            Mari Vie
	Swarthy Spaniard Type			      Demure French Chick
	House Moonblade, Bny of Stargate              Moonblade
	Ansteorra                                     Ansteorra
	
	Oh, PS:  InterNet:   mfactor@taronga.com
	         Physical:   12226 South Dr,
Houston, Tx 77099
-- 
      |                   |
       \0__,___   ___,__@/
        +  '         `  =
       / )             ( \
From: tbarnes@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (thomas wrentmore barnes)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Period War Heraldry
Date: 24 Jul 92 15:46:19 GMT
Article-I.D.: usenet.BrwH58.ICD
Organization: Indiana University

Good Gentles All,

I have read (in the Oxford Concise Guide to Heraldry and elsewhere) that
in period, that when a battle was to be fought between two opposing
chivalrous armies, the heralds from both sides would assemble on a hill
overlooking the battlefield. There they would note the knights who were
most conspicuously brave in battle and the course of the battle.
	After the battle, they would identify the noble dead and record
the total number of dead on either side and award the right to name the
battlefield to the victorious leader. (BTW this explains the scene
between Henry and Montjoie the Herald in the marvelous Kevin Branough
version of Henry V that came out a couple of years ago. After the
battle, when Henry discovers that his baggage train has been looted,
Montjoie comes to tell Henry of his victory and to ask him to name the
battle field. It is a in indicator of Henry's uncertainty as to whether
he has won the battle or not, that he has to ask the herald who won. It
is also indicative of his tremendous fear and stress that he yanks
Montjoie off his horse - heralds were not supposed to be attacked while
they were carrying out their duties).

	I was thinking that it might be neat to have a bunch of heralds
stand halfway up Mt. St. Hellengone and watch the fiel battle this year. If
they were very lucky, they might even be able to identify some of the
units and participants in the battle and how they fared. After the
battle, the chief heralds from the East and the Midrealm could go to the
winning king, formally announce the victory and give him the right to
"name" the battlefield. (I name the battlefield......Fred! ;-) ).

        So, do people think this idea is as nifty as I do or do people
think that it's more hassle than its worth. I think it's neat schtick
and that a tiny knot (or is it seme...;-) of heralds on top of the hill
 would be a bit of harmless and colorful bit of authenticity.  

In Service, 

	Lothar von Katzenellenbogen \|/                
                                     0
From: gray@ibis.cs.umass.edu (Lyle H. Gray)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Libelous doings (was: Why not Pentacles)
Date: 22 Jul 92 10:53:07 GMT
Reply-To: gray@ibis.cs.umass.edu (Lyle H. Gray)
Organization: University of Massachusetts, Amherst

Regarding the collection of articles that supposedly link the SCA, pagan
recruitment, and roleplaying games:  Is anyone else aware that there really
_is_ a group called the Society for Creative Anarchism?  I believe that it's
located somewhere in the Chicago area, and I believe that it is _not_ involved
in either Renaissance Fairs or pagan recruitment, but it does exist...

Lyle FitzWilliam
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lyle H. Gray                       Internet (personal): gray@cs.umass.edu
Quodata Corporation            Phone: (203) 728-6777, FAX: (203) 247-0249
--(My opinions are my own, and do not represent my employer's opinions)--
From: vader@meryl.csd.uu.se ("]ke Eldberg")
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: noises in the barn
Date: 21 Jul 92 20:24:28 GMT
Organization: The Internet

Greetings from William de Corbie!

Bertram writes:

>By the by, perhaps the audio techs among us can say whether or
>not it is affordable to have amplified voices not *sound* like
>traditional amplified voices, given the acoustics in the barn
>at the War.

At my church we have a newly installed sound system with just
one loudspeaker, suspended from the ceiling and carefully
calibrated to amplify only those parts of the sound spectrum 
which are difficult to hear from a distance, i.e. consonants.

Our experience with this system is very good. People sitting in
church perceive the sound as coming from the priest, not 
the loudspeaker. The cost was a measely 15,000 dollars...

That includes a lot of other stuff as well, however; I guess
that the speaker, wireless mike, and amplifier+equalizer could
be bought for about 6,000 dollars. Properly installed, such a
system would make the barn a lot better both at court and dancing.

William
From: jtn@nutter.cs.vt.edu (Terry Nutter)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Songs
Date: 29 Jul 92 19:39:31 GMT
Followup-To: rec.org.sca
Organization: SCA

Greetings, good gentles, from Angharad ver' Rhuawn.  Richard from 
House Badger says,

>I have but one comment on Angharad's well written and admirably
>even-handed missive:
>The problem is that, if it were required that all
>campfire/revel/circle songs were to be in period, a) the performances
>would fall squarely on the backs of the small number of people who
>have a special interest in period music, enough to learn an adequate
>repetoire, and  b) The rest, who wish to revel, but have not the
>inclinations/time/ability to do this branch of research are left in
>the cold.

Oh dear, I've done it again.

I don't think we should allow only songs actually written before 1601.
Rather, I would like to see us encourage only songs that sound as if
they could have been written then (with the proviso that I am perfectly
happy to accept battles within the Known World as subject matter, for
instance, so long as that doesn't mean songs about duct tape). Further,
the more such songs can sound medieval-to-renaissance-ish to educated 
ears, the better.

I absolutely don't want to discourage anyone writing period style
songs, including new period style melodies.  And period-ish folk is
fine with me -- I sing it myself -- though the less it _screams_ 
"18th C or later" to my ear, the happier I am.

And yes, I said "encourage", not "permit only".  And I only intend
by this to encourage it _during events_.  Postrevels -- or last day
after everyone is dressed for travel, in some kingdoms -- are wide
open, so far as I am concerned.  This is where filks belong, and I
_do_ think they _do_ belong here, and good ones are good here.

As to leaving others in the cold: it really doesn't take any longer
to learn a period or periodish song than it does to learn a modern
one.  Even at Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University,
which is hardly the world's bright and shining center for either
libraries in general or medieval collections in particular, I can
find lots of them, including _recordings_ of period and periodish
material, in under an hour.  If you like this sort of thing, this
isn't a hardship.  Honest.

I hope I'm getting clearer on this.  All I really want is not to 
have my medieval mood broken by listening to something which 
could not, by any stretch of the imagination, have existed before 
about 1970.  And when it is, what I _actually_ do is wince 
privately, and usually say nothing: either they are in a setting 
whose host welcomes such things, or as a rule, they know they are 
not, and my saying something won't much help.  In any case,
saying something then only compounds the problem.

In practice, I avoid most Atlantian bardic circles, because the 
mundanity level is high enough to be annoying.  At Pennsic, I aim 
carefully for such fires as encourage a higher level, and so far, 
have not been disappointed.  I don't want to drive anyone out into 
the cold; I'm just happier when I don't have to retire there myself.

Cheers all,

Angharad/Terry
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca