From: erc@unislc.uucp (Ed Carp)
Subject: Re: Proof: God wrote the Bible
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Organization: Unisys Corporation SLC
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 03:55:05 GMT

Arnold E. Nordeng (nordenga@tc.fluke.COM) wrote:

: In article <Oct.8.07.01.10.1992.11684@ruhets.rutgers.edu> farris@ruhets.rutgers.edu (Lorenzo Farris) writes:

: >Number two, in Hindu and Buddhist belief, no creature is any more or
: >any less important than a human is.  
: 
: Isn't that wonderful.  Hindu and Buddhist have just degraded humankind 
: to that of maggots.  This human being is is no less or no more important
: to that of a this or that maggot.  In Christianity, man is a unique creation
: of a personal God and is an important creation of a personal God.

Perhaps it could be better stated that "life, irrespective of its form,
is valuable".  God made maggots, too, Arnold -- are you saying that God's
creations are irrelevent?

: >Killing any living creature has
: >negative consequences.  The caste system is in part a result of a
: >particular class of people coopting and redefining the tenets of a
: >religion. Not too different from what has gone on in Christianity
: >through the ages.
: 
: It isn't all that far of a stretch of an imagination since we are no
: more or less valuable than maggots.  Get it?

But you're avoiding the issue...

: >He was created imperfect, and then punished for
: >being imperfect?  
: 
: He was created good. Where is it said he was created imperfect?

Where is it said that he wasn't?  Man was made in the image of God - that
doesn't necessarily mean "good".

: >He was cast out of paradise for acquiring knowledge?  
: 
: He was not cast out of paradise for acquiring knowledge.  He was
: cast out for being disobedient to God.  Free will and free choice
: was given, to obey or not to obey God.

But that's not free will!  "Either do it my way, or roast in hell" isn't
my idea of free will.  "Do it *my* way, or burn, baby, burn ... but, hey,
do whatever you want to..."  Yeah, right...

: Rejecting God's remedy for sin, Jesus Christ, deserves judgement--this
: is the greatest crime or sin.

Huh?  You mean, if I don't believe like you believe, I'm gonna roast?  That
is illogical - for "rejecting" JC is like saying, "Arnold, I don't believe
you know what you're talking about when you tell me that JC == God."  Now,
who does that hurt by saying that?  You?  Me?  JC?  Hardly...so why is the
punishment so severe for something so minor?

: >In the eastern theory of karma, you reap as you sow, you always have
: >to pay back for anything negative you do, you always get the rewards
: >for the good you do. Justice is inevitable.  
: 
: Justice from impersonal gods who you don't know, who don't tell you how
: to behave, and really don't care, hence impersonality.  You live over 
: and over again in an attempt to escape into the great beyond of 
: impersonality, where you are, continually paying for sins you can't remember.
: We are talking rape, incest, murder, and other horrors that are apar
: of karma.

I think you have a misunderstanding of karma, reincarnation, and God, Arnold.
Some religions say that "God" is impersonal.  I don't happen to agree, but,
then again, my beliefs can be thought of as "New Age", too!  The object of
karma is to learn to act with love - if that means being raped to experience
the horror of being raped, just because you raped someone else in a past
life, you will decide to go through that.  No one *makes* anyone do this, but
if you want to grow, you may.  If Christian theology is correct, JC did much
the same thing when he was crucified for "Man's sins".

: >Also inevitable is that
: >ALL creatures will one day have moved beyond this plane into union
: >with the divine.
: 
: Having suffered all along for sins of past lives.  In India, they come
: back at lower forms of life, like cows.  When will they ever learn.

I think you're mixing your theologies, Arnold.  When will *you* ever learn?

: >Last point: You will probably never be aware of this yourself, or
: >acknowledge it (that's a flame for you! :-) but proselytizing is an
: >act of violence.  To force your OPINION down someone else's throat
: >totally uninvited is an act of VIOLENCE.  An act of violence done in a
: >good (sic) cause is still an act of violence.  Some somewhat more
: >enlightened soul said that you can tell a Christian by the way that
: >they act.  In this day and age, that is certainly very true about
: >fundies. 
: 
: Lorenzo, you are not aware of yourself.  Simply because nothing is real,
: only apart of your imagination.  Your irrational anger is driving
: you away from being impersonal, from blurring into the impersonal nirvahna
: of consciousness (or lack of).   Impersonality doesn't care if I post my
: opinion and doesn't describe it as forcing it down someone else's throat.
: Nothing is real, no evil, no good.  Its all apart of the cosmic 
: (un)consciousness.  Doesn't Hinduism say that violence is unreal?

You didn't answer the question - just hiding behind a smoke screen of ridicule.

: Maybe you don't believe what you state.

I notice that when you are called on what *you* believe, you tend to hide
behind a smoke screen of mixed theology, out-of-context quotes, and ridicule.
Jesus was straight and up-front with people - why can't you do the same?

: BTW, I am here to discuss newage and eastern thought, and yes, I will
: approach it as immoral.  I am allowed to post on this group, no?

No, you aren't here to "discuss" anything - you are here to tell us all how
wrong we are for believing a different way than you believe, and to "prove"
your moral superiority over non-Christians.  To approach a subject as
immoral presupposes that your point of view is moral (or more moral than
the other guys), but you haven't done that - you've used circular logic to
attempt to "prove" your moral superiority, but all you've proven to everyone
here is taht you're a religious bigot, an intolerant, no different than the
Pharisees that your beloved Christ was so angry with.  "I never knew ye",
Arnold...
-- 
Ed Carp, N7EKG                  erc@apple.com                     801/538-0177
"This is the final task I will ever give you, and it  goes  on  forever.   Act
happy, feel happy, be happy, without a reason in the world. Then you can love,
and do what you will."           -- Dan Millman, "Way Of The Peaceful Warrior"
Xref: sparky talk.religion.newage:4613 alt.alien.visitors:7275 sci.skeptic:17690