HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: cash@convex.com (Peter Cash)
Subject: Re: Mother Nature (was : Vegetarianism) 
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 04:30:28 GMT
Organization: The Instrumentality
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

In article <1993Jan26.163827.11733@bnr.ca> tigger@x400gate.bnr.ca writes:
...

> I can't, however, accept your assessment that the environment is
>no more than a thing to be casually manipulated for human convenience.

I agree that we should respect nature; I just think we should consider the
rights and interests of people also. 

>By the environment, I mean our planetary eco-system. You may already
>be aware of the Gaaian hypothesis and I suspect if you are , you
>probably don't buy it. This is fair enough as the idea that Earths
>biosphere is a living SENTIENT entity cannot be established by
>any simple logical process, but it has been considered by thinkers
>with good scientific/philosophical credentials (e.g. Gregory Bateson)
>and deserves serious consideration. 

The fact that it's been entertained by scientists does not make the
hypothesis scientific. In fact it isn't scientific, because it's not
falsifiable. You've given me the clearest possible illustration of
precisely what I was talking about--a religion, a sort of neo-paganism.
It's not that I "don't buy it"--I don't believe in it.


-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
             |      Die Welt ist alles, was Zerfall ist.     |
Peter Cash   |       (apologies to Ludwig Wittgenstein)      |cash@convex.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: ag@sics.se (Anders G|ransson)
Newsgroups: talk.philosophy.misc
Subject: Re: Grounding morals
Date: 26 Jan 93 20:28:55 GMT
	<C1G6Ct.HJ8@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> <AG.93Jan26133304@anhur.sics.se>
	<C1Gw39.553@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>
Organization: GRAMMA

In article <C1Gw39.553@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> jwales@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Jimmy -Jimbo- Wales) writes:

JW >   Not directly, not immediately, not individually, of course.  But
   >   intellectual arguments play a strong role in shaping culture, law,
   >   etc.   If there is a failure among intellectuals (philosophers) in
   >   defending (for example) the fundamental value of life, then a direct
   >   result may be: Nazi gas chambers.  We've seen it happen.
   >
   >
  

  AG >I don't know if it is in any way related to this issue but I
     >once read a serie of interesting comments on this matter by
     >Heisenberg (who lived in Germany during the second world war). 
     >He suggested that intellectual arguments was part of the problem
     >and that morality must be based in something beyond rational
     >arguments. 


  JW: Then Heisenberg was just as much of an (intellectual) victim of the
      doctrines he had taught as were the Nazis. 


I have some trouble 'parsing' (I've seen "parsing" used this way
on usenet, but it is perhaps not the word I want) your sentence 
above.

A) What is meant by "the doctrines he (Heisenberg) had taught"?
   Do you mean that Heisenberg was a victim (Intellectual) of some
   doctrine he himself had taught? What was this doctrine?

B) Do you mean that the Nazis were victims of some doctrine that
   Heisenberg had taught?

  JW:  I know of no plausible view of rationality that would lead one
       to think that the Nazis were _rational_!  

Maybe "plausible" is the key word here? What I take Heisenberg
to mean is that in the intellectual sphere everything can be
thrown around. Perhaps the fact that he partoke in the arguable
most far reaching change of perspective in physics there have
been made him sensitive to this view.
Or maybe he heard the 'arguments' of lebensraum, the German
superiority e t c phrased in the most rational fashion.


  JW: It is precisely the placing of morality beyond rational
      arguments that opens the door for the only known alternative: brute
      force.  That is, if reason (i.e. discussion, debate, and the virtues
      of tolerance presumed by the process) is abandoned, then what other
      path is open?


I my memory serves me Heisenberg continued his (beautiful)
metaphor by saying that when the compass responds to nothing
outside the ship of steel then you have to navigate by the
stars.
If one believes that morality is outside rationality the fight
against brute force has to be conducted outside of rationality,
i.e not by arguing against it and yet *not* by using brute force
either. 


   >Now, I hope I haven't 'put my foot in my mouth' or whatever way
   >the English proverb has it.

   No, I don't think so.  The comment was interesting.


Thank you.

best regards Anders





--


If you see Saint Annie, please tell her - Thanks a lot.
Newsgroups: talk.philosophy.misc
From: nyeda@cnsvax.uwec.edu (David Nye)
Newsgroups: talk.philosophy.misc
Subject: Re: Abortion (was Vegetarianism)
Date: 28 Jan 93 08:35:57 -0600
Organization: University of Wisconsin Eau Claire

[reply to mfragass@silver.ucs.indiana.edu]
 
>I agree - one must admit that a zygote, unlike a flea or a tick, will
>grow into a being capable of very un-tick-like behaviors, such as
>musical composition, scientific research, and even posting to internet
>news.  This, it seems to me, would be a more sensible ground for
>pro-life arguments - not that a zygote/ embryo/fetus _is_ a full human
>being, but that it will _become_ one
 
If one objects to abortion because it is destroying something which will
become human, it seems to me he would have to object to contraception in
any form, including abstinence, to be consistent.
 
>it would be a damn good thing if more discussions about abortion were
>as calm and rational as this one is.
 
It's really a pleasant change from the abortion discussions I've seen
elsewhere on the net.  Please, don't anyone cross-post this thread to
alt.abortion!

David Nye
nyeda@cnsvax.uwec.edu
From: jwales@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Jimmy -Jimbo- Wales)
Subject: error correction
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 18:09:15 GMT

I wrote a strange sentence here recently.  I wrote something
which appeared to say that Heisenberg was a victim of the
'doctrines he had taught'... I meant to write 'doctrines
he had been taught'.

My point was that if Heisenberg thought that Nazism was RATIONAL,
but that, instead, we should be IRRATIONAL, then he was as much of
an intellectual victim to the philosophical doctrines underlying
Nazism as were the Nazis themselves.  There is not much rationality
to be found in the collectivist doctrines of Nazism or Italian
Fascism.

--Jimbo

Newsgroups: talk.rumors
From: durall@nx26.mik.uky.edu (benjamin b durall)
Subject: Shhhhh....  PT MCMICII
Reply-To: durall@mik.uky.edu
Organization: University Of Kentucky, Dept. of Math Sciences
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 00:07:18 GMT

Don't tell anyone, but I heard that John Lennon, Jimi Hendrix, Karen Carpenter,  
and John Bonham have decided to form a band.  Look for their '93 "Back From the  
Dead" tour.
Supposedly Elvis is the opening act.

You didn't hear it here, and certainly not from ME!

--
Bryan Durall  |  durall@mik.uky.edu (preferred)  |  bbdura00@ukpr.uky.edu
"Lucky I'm sane after all I've been through,
 I can't complain but sometimes I still do.
 Life's been good to me so far."             - Joe Walsh, 1978
Newsgroups: talk.rumors
From: sarust@gallua.gallaudet.edu (Scott A. Rust)
Subject: Re: CHRISTIANS ARE BEING DUPED!
Organization: Gallaudet University English Department
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 16:29:17 GMT

In article <1993Jan25.181837.3312@cnsvax.uwec.edu>, mcelwre@cnsvax.uwec.edu writes:
>           
> 
>                          CHRISTIANS ARE BEING DUPED!
>       

>	[INCREDIBLE AMOUNTS OF SWAMI BULLCRAP AND
>		ADVERTISEMENTS FOR BOOKS BY THE "WORLDS MOST
>			FAMOUS PSYCHIC HEALERS" DELETED]
> 
> 
>                                            Robert E. McElwaine
>                                            2nd Initiate in Eckankar
> 
> 
-- 

        Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
        Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
        Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
        Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
        Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
                                                            
		At least it was posted in the right group.


scott rust
sarust@gallua.gallaudet.edu
11srust@gallua
Organization: The American University - University Computing Center
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 14:31:56 EST
From: Patrick Barton <PB5329A@auvm.american.edu>
Newsgroups: talk.rumors
Subject: Shhhh....Pt CXI

gee...what happened to the ones in between 2 and 111?

Anyway, just a little rumor, and remember, (altogether now) you didn't hear
this from me...

Dave Letterman is planning a coup of the White House, because he really
wants that 11:30 spot...if he can't get it through conventional means, then
he will make it an executive order....
Remember, I don't know ANYTHING about this....
From: dlytle@OAVAX.CSUCHICO.EDU (Don Lytle)
Newsgroups: talk.rumors
Subject: The Association for the Study of Play conference
Date: 21 Jan 93 21:02:14 GMT
Reply-To: dlytle@OAVAX.CSUCHICO.EDU
Organization: California State University, Chico
NNTP-Posting-Host: oavax.csuchico.edu


                 *****   ANNOUNCEMENT AND CALL FOR PAPERS   *****

                             TASP 1993 - St. Paul, MN
                     The Association for the Study of Play
      April 22 - 24, 1993 * The St. Paul Hotel * St. Paul, Minnesota

   The Association For The Study of Play (TASP) will hold its 1993 annual meetings in St. Paul, Minnesota.  The conference will begin Thursday and continue   until Saturday, April 24. There will be featured speakers, playshops, and forums for the discussion and presentation of   research papers on all aspects of play research, theory, performance and behavior.
    For the past twenty years TASP conferences have provided  a  mechanism by  which  researchers in diverse fields have the opportunity to share ideas  and  interact  in  a friendly and collegial atmosphere.
   Papers and proposals for panel sessions or tutorials related to the broad  study of play are invited.  Sessions include, but are not limited to:
 - Humor, laughter
 - Computer and cyperspace play
 - Folklore
 - Children's play behavior
 - Cross-cultural play
 - Body work and play art
 - Performance 
 - Anthropology of festive play
 - Sport
 - Literary playfulness

Deadline for submission of abstracts is February 5, 1993.

Send abstracts (100 word maximum), audio-visual needs, and registration fees  ($60 professional and $20 student made payable to TASP) to:

Dr. Don Lytle
Department of Physical Education
California State University, Chico  95929-0330. 
Bitnet/E-Mail: DLYTLE@OAVAX.CSUCHICO.EDU; FAX: 916 898-4932; 
Phone: {916} 898-6617 or 898-6373 {message}
Organization: University of Maine System
Date: Friday, 22 Jan 1993 20:05:53 EST
From: Christopher Robin? ... No. <IO10781@MAINE.MAINE.EDU>
Newsgroups: talk.rumors
Subject: Hey ... guess what ...

I hear that there's a rumour going around. Yeah. No kidding. Pass
it on and don't tell anyone I told you. Thanks.

./~~~~~~~~~~~~~\_____________________________.__________/~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\,
|  Ren and Stimpy are martyrs. They died so  | Write to Captain Ugh or  |
|  that we can sin again. - John Kricfalusi  | he will pee all over ya. |
|     Director of the Ren & Stimpy show.     |  IO10781@Maine.maine.edu |
`\_____________/~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~^~~~~~~~~~~\______________/'
Organization: University of Maine System
Date: Saturday, 23 Jan 1993 02:08:39 EST
From: Christopher Robin? ... No. <IO10781@MAINE.MAINE.EDU>
Newsgroups: talk.rumors
Subject: Shhhhhhhhh.

    The UFO's have landed. I'm not kidding. They're right here
outside my window. I can just see the top of one of the aliens
strange antenae. They're all green and glowing. Honest. I have
to reposrt this to the Enquirer quick. Be right back.

./~~~~~~~~~~~~~\_____________________________.__________/~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\,
| "I think everyone i nteh world is actually | Write to Captain Ugh or  |
| very smart. It's just that some of them    | he will pee all over ya. |
| don't know it yet."    - Skip Ernst        |  IO10781@Maine.maine.edu |
`\_____________/~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~^~~~~~~~~~~\______________/'

I swear this is happening.
From: C.H.Maiden1@lut.ac.uk (-----LOOONNEEEE--------) 
Subject: desperation
Reply-To: C.H.Maiden1@lut.ac.uk (-----LOOONNEEEE--------)
Organization: Loughborough University, UK.
Distribution: midlands
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 93 11:05:15 GMT


Dear all you lovely people out there!

	Now my friend Ken is desperate for a woman. He really needs
someone , something, anything, and would like to hear from all you 
gorgeous young women out there. 
		Phone him on 0509 265987 (ie Loughborough)

			lots of love 

			Chris 	
			xxxxx
p.s. he says he's well hung!!!
Newsgroups: talk.rumors
Subject: Re: Shhhhh....
From: wildcard@vax1.mankato.msus.edu
Date: 26 Jan 93 03:31:11 -0600
Organization: Mankato State University

In article <93025.200133PB5329A@auvm.american.edu>, Patrick Barton <PB5329A@auvm.american.edu> writes:
> If anyone asks, you didn't hear it from me....
> 
> buuuuut....
> 
> I heard that Bill Clinton is president....
> 
> now remember, you didn't hear it from me...shhhhhh.....

"Bill.....Bill who?...." R. Reagan
Organization: University of Maine System
Date: Saturday, 23 Jan 1993 01:33:11 EST
From: <IO00187@MAINE.MAINE.EDU>
Newsgroups: talk.rumors
Subject: Re: Hey ... guess what ...

Wow! I thought that quote sounded familiar!  We both went to the same lecture.
 For all of you who didn't get a  chance to see John K., refer to my note on th
e alt.tv. ren and stimpy board.

                               Stifman
Newsgroups: talk.rumors
From: me@vikings.austin.ibm.com (Michael E)
Subject: Just a rumor- Re: CHRISTIANS ARE BEING DUPED!
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 23:44:58 GMT
Organization: IBM Austin
Keywords: Advertising, recruiting, lost, rude, lost marbles.

>                                           Robert E. McElwaine
In article <1993Jan25.181837.3312@cnsvax.uwec.edu> mcelwre@cnsvax.uwec.edu writes:
>                         CHRISTIANS ARE BEING DUPED!
		:
		incredibly inane stuff deleted.
		:
>               UN-altered REPRODUCTION and DISSEMINATION of this 
>          IMPORTANT Information is ENCOURAGED. 

Don't count on it. I can't wait to twisted a bit more and THEN pass it out.

>                                           Robert E. McElwaine
>                                           2nd Initiate in Eckankar

Is this a rumor, or does initiation to the third level include learning
how to post to talk.religion.* or soc.religion.*?

If recruiting (which I believe your doing since you didn't add a disclaimer)
then I hope you will appreciate others soliciting their
favorite electronic brochures to you.

--------------------------------
"Did you make mankind
after we made you?"
	"Dear God", XTC
Organization: The American University - University Computing Center
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 20:01:33 EST
From: Patrick Barton <PB5329A@auvm.american.edu>
Newsgroups: talk.rumors
Subject: Shhhhh....

If anyone asks, you didn't hear it from me....

buuuuut....

I heard that Bill Clinton is president....

now remember, you didn't hear it from me...shhhhhh.....
Organization: The American University - University Computing Center
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 14:28:46 EST
From: Patrick Barton <PB5329A@auvm.american.edu>
Newsgroups: talk.rumors
Subject: Shhhhhh....Pt II

And another thing...

(remember you didn't hear this from me)

The Soviet Union no longer exists.....

Shhhhhhhh...don't tell Reagan...he might stop selling arms to Iraq...

Remember, don't tell ANYONE!  This message will self destruct in 15 seconds...
Newsgroups: talk.rumors
From: rbrown@ncsa.uiuc.edu (Rich Brown -- Neither)
Subject: Re: The Association for the Study of Play conference
Originator: rbrown@troon.ncsa.uiuc.edu
Organization: Nat'l Ctr for Supercomp App (NCSA) @ University of Illinois
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 18:28:45 GMT

I don't believe this; it's obviously false!  Please substantiate this rumor,
if you can!

:-) if ya need it.

In article <1jn30mINN8o4@charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu> dlytle@OAVAX.CSUCHICO.EDU writes:
>
>                 *****   ANNOUNCEMENT AND CALL FOR PAPERS   *****
>
>                             TASP 1993 - St. Paul, MN
>                     The Association for the Study of Play
>      April 22 - 24, 1993 * The St. Paul Hotel * St. Paul, Minnesota
>
>   The Association For The Study of Play (TASP) will hold its 1993 annual meetings in St. Paul, Minnesota.  The conference will begin Thursday and continue   until Saturday, April 24. There will be featured speakers, playshops, and forums for the discussi
>on and presentation of   research papers on all aspects of play research, theory, performance and behavior.
>    For the past twenty years TASP conferences have provided  a  mechanism by  which  researchers in diverse fields have the opportunity to share ideas  and  interact  in  a friendly and collegial atmosphere.
>   Papers and proposals for panel sessions or tutorials related to the broad  study of play are invited.  Sessions include, but are not limited to:
> - Humor, laughter
> - Computer and cyperspace play
> - Folklore
> - Children's play behavior
> - Cross-cultural play
> - Body work and play art
> - Performance 
> - Anthropology of festive play
> - Sport
> - Literary playfulness
>
>Deadline for submission of abstracts is February 5, 1993.
>
>Send abstracts (100 word maximum), audio-visual needs, and registration fees  ($60 professional and $20 student made payable to TASP) to:
>
>Dr. Don Lytle
>Department of Physical Education
>California State University, Chico  95929-0330. 
>Bitnet/E-Mail: DLYTLE@OAVAX.CSUCHICO.EDU; FAX: 916 898-4932; 
>Phone: {916} 898-6617 or 898-6373 {message}


Newsgroups: talk.rumors
From: mjenkins@alfred.carleton.ca (Michael Jenkinson)
Subject: Shhhhh...
Organization: Carleton University
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 19:57:23 GMT

Don't tell anyone, but there's this guy named Patrick Barton whose
really bored, so he's posting all these messages to talk.rumors.

But remember, you didn't hear it from me!

<insert smileys as needed>

Shhhh...
Newsgroups: talk.abortion,talk.politics.misc,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.rush-limbaugh,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh.tv-show,talk.religion.misc
From: becka@leland.Stanford.EDU (Rebecca Lynn Sparling)
Subject: pro-choice and school vouchers
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 93 07:45:58 GMT

In article <casivils.727566210@node_508ba> casivils@lescsse.jsc.nasa.gov (craig sivils) writes:
>Tit for Tat,
>
>Why are so many people who claim to be "pro-choice" against the right of 
>an individual to use public money for their children to attend the school 
>private or public of their choice.
>
>                                Craig

'Fraid I can't give you statistics on this (just deal with it, DODIE)
but I'm pretty sure that California spends more per student to get
shot at and ignored in public school than my parents paid for a *wonderful*
private education... (my high school must have been doing something
right that the huge bureaucracy they call the "State Government"
wasn't) I don't know how this compares to other states 'cause I've
never lived anywhere else, but I wouldn't be surprised if the stats
were similar...
becka
-- 
*******************************************************************************
The probability of someone       ***  If you're not part of the solution
Watching you is proportional     ***  You're part of the precipatate.
To the stupidity of your action. ***  The Chemist's Truth from Steven Wright
Newsgroups: talk.abortion
From: nyikos@math.scarolina.edu (Peter Nyikos)
Subject: The Closing of the Margolis Mind, Part 2
Organization: USC  Department of Computer Science
Date: 21 Jan 93 17:08:18 GMT

The thread title is inspired by Alan Bloom's bestseller, _The Closing
of the American Mind_,  and the thread, "Terrible. Close. Mind."
which was born of Frank O'Dwyer's frustration with Larry Margolis.

This is another post I tried to make a while back, and which seems
not to have made the boards:

Date: 10 Dec 92 17:50:39 GMT
Newsgroups: talk.abortion
Subject: Larry on fetal ping-pong (Was: rights and responsibilities)
Distribution: world

In <1992Dec05.075459.147819@watson.ibm.com> margoli@watson.ibm.com (Larry Margolis) writes:

>In <1992Dec4.221204.8117@midway.uchicago.edu>
>eeb1@quads.uchicago.edu (e elizabeth bartley) writes:
>>In article <Byq22y.y0@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>
>>rharlan@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Rick Harlan) writes:
>>
>>>      We know now that the fetus is aware of his/her surroundings
>>>from a very early age, and reacts noticably to intrusions in its
>>>environment (such as from a doctor's instruments).
>>
>>Source, please?

>Probably the old fluid dynamics idiocy - poke something at an object in
>a fluid (be it a fetus or a ping-pong ball) and it will move away from
>the probe.

Tell that to the pediatricians and surgeons who now consider it unethical
to operate on a viable fetus in the womb without anestetizing it.

If nothing else, there is the sheer mechanics of the situation: unless the 
fetus is anesthetized, it will very actively struggle.

This is just the latest example of our fractured view on fetuses: a 
wanted unborn child is treated like a normal patient, while an unwanted
one is compared to a ping-pong ball.

For more on the subject, see _Beyond Abortion_, by Suzanne Rini,
especially the chapter, "Abandonment of the Fetus as Patient and Client."

>Larry Margolis, MARGOLI@YKTVMV (Bitnet), margoli@watson.IBM.com (Internet)

Terrible. Close. Mind.

A mind is a terrible thing to waste.  Especially on cheap shots on 
fluid dynamics.

Peter Nyikos

Newsgroups: talk.abortion,talk.religion.misc,alt.atheism
From: dsh@eceyv.ncsu.edu (Doug Holtsinger)
Subject: Re: Christian Pro-Choicers
Followup-To: talk.abortion
Organization: NCSU
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1993 21:24:36 GMT

In article <yhl384a@rpi.edu> cookc@aix.rpi.edu (rocker) writes:
>cobb@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu (Mike Cobb) writes:

>> From the moment of conception the only thing that is added is food 
>> and protection.  

> Do me a favor.  Go tell your mother that all she ever gave you in the
> womb was "food and protection".
>
> Warning - you may be somewhat surprised at her reaction.

Would she have a different reaction if he had said 'bodily resources'
instead of 'food and protection'?  Nah... probably not.   But we'd 
probably see a different reaction from "rocker".


>-rocker


---
Doug Holtsinger
'finger dsh@odin.ece.ncsu.edu' for documentation which shows that 
Roe v. Wade is unrestricted abortion-on-demand throughout pregnancy.
Xref: sparky talk.abortion:57921 alt.flame:19350