HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: scot@hpfcla.fc.hp.com (Scot Heath)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: falling bullet does not "compute"
Date: 12 Jan 93 00:50:06 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Fort Collins Site

Myron A. Calhoun (mac@cis.ksu.edu) wrote:
: 
: in his summary of the relevant section (Chapter 20, "Bullets from
: the sky") of Hatcher's Notebook by Julian S. Hatcher, Major General,
: USA, Retired Stackpole Books, Harrisburg, Pennsylvania;
: ISBN 0-8117-0614-1 $24.95 (hardcover)
: jgreely@morganucodon.cis.ohio-state.edu (J Greely) copied
: 
: 	"Calculations indicate that the 150-grain .30-caliber
: 	 Service bullet fired straight up at a muzzle velocity
: 	 of 2700 feet per second will rise 9000 feet, taking
: 	 about 18 seconds to do it; and that it takes 31
: 	 seconds to return to earth, the last few thousand
: 	 feet of the fall being at a nearly constant speed of
: 	 a bit over 300 feet per second."
: 
: The last clause of the above paragraph just doesn't "compute", at least
: not in the way I use the English language!
: 
: Suppose "a bit over 300" means "301";
: then a constant-speed fall of 9000 feet at 301 fps takes 29.9 seconds,
:       (and a "nearly constant speed" shouldn't be
:        much different; see the next two paragraphs)
: which doesn't jibe with "the last few thousand feet of the fall".

I don't see the problem.  Say the last few thousand feet means the last
3000.  This 3000 feet will be traversed in approximately 10 seconds, the
remaining 21 seconds will be used to traverse the previous 6000 feet while
the bullet is accelerating from an initial velocity of 0 to the final
velocity of approx. 300 fps.

Ignoring drag, it would take the bullet approx. 9 seconds to accelerate
from the effect of gravity from 0 to approx. 300 fps so with drag, I find
it easy to believe the 21 second figure.

-Scot
From: chris@MorningStar.Com (Chris Miller)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: DON'T USE SMOKELESS IN A BLACK POWDER GUN
Date: 8 Jan 93 22:23:10 GMT
Organization: Morning Star Technologies

In article <9301071647.AA09629@ralph.sybgate.sybase.com> sybase!randys@Sun.COM (Randy Schermer) writes:
#THIS THREAD ON SMOKELESS POWER USE IN MUZZLE LOADERS MUST BE STOPPED!
#
#Using smokeless power in any muzzle loding or cap-and-ball firearm
#is DANGEROUS, and given the amount of printed information and warnings
#on the subject it is also very STUPID!
#
#The chemistry, and thus combustion-expansion characteristics, of black 
#powder and PYRODEX are entirely different than smokeless propelants.
#
#Inconsistant loading conditions, the chance of double (triple?) loading, 
#and the chance of cross-fires in cap-and-ball firearms makes smokeless
#powder an entirely unacceptable and DANGEROUS option.
[snip..]


I can testify to this from personal (painful) experience.  I blew up
(yes, blew up) a muzzleloader trying to use smokeless powder in it
and consider it to be one of the dumber things I've ever done.

I tried it thinking, "Oh, I'll just try a small fractional load. It 
can't hurt."  It most certainly did hurt.  It blew a huge hole out
the side of the chamber, shattered the stock where it met the receiver,
and imbedded what felt like a large portion of the stock in my left
forearm.  I still have scars where the splinters entered. 
I have since found out that smokeless burns MUCH faster than BP.
While a given BP charge may have the same potential energy as a 
smokeless charge (total energy released available for propelling the
bullet), the speed at which the smokeless burns is such that enormous
chamber pressures develop (Well, enormous compared to the BP load anyway.)


Don't try it.

Chris Miller
chris@MorningStar.Com
From: brown%ccit08@uunet.UU.NET (Jason Brown)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Shooting Straight Up
Date: 7 Jan 93 23:59:54 GMT
Organization: J. Random Misconfigured Site

In article <1993Jan6.164626.14780@news.eng.convex.com> tford@convex.com (Tom Ford) writes:
# I heard a local news report on New Years Day about people shooting off guns in
# town to celebrate the new year, not a smart thing to do.  I was wondering
# what are the ballistics like for a falling bullet after it has been shot
# at near 90 degrees elevation.
# 
# Happy (safe) new year,
# Tom Ford

Well,
	If we step into the Physics room for a moment perhaps we can sort this
one out.  Remember the simple fact that energy is conserved in a system. 
At the moment the bullet leaves the chamber, we'll call that zero elevation,
it has a certain amount of kinetic energy from the burning of the powder.
As it climbs, this kinetic energy is converted to potential energy at such a
rate that, at the apex of its flight (the top), Kinetic energy =0 and potential
energy = kinetic energy at elevation zero.  So it stops, and now it starts to
fall.  As it falls, it accelerates and the potential energy is turned back into
kinetic energy.  Assuming that it went straight up and fell straight down, when
it reached the chamber of the gun on the way back down, elevation zero, it
would have the exact same amount of kinetic energy as when it left.  

	What does this mean?  Well, if you shot the bullet, and then stepped
into the spot you fired the gun from, when the bullet came down, you'd be dead.

	Of course this little exercise does ignore a few things though.  Some 
energy will be lost due to air friction and converted to heat, though not much
if it is a very aerodynmic bullet.  Also, the shot has to go straight up and
straight down as well.

Hope this helps.

--Jason Brown
(NeXT Mail Welcome)
brown@ccit01.duq.edu

--
   ____               ___
    /                 /  )
   /  _, ,  __       /-,' ,_  __
\_/__</_/>_(_/_/\/  /__)__/__(_/__(_/_)_/\/

"Remember, be humble, always answer the phone...
 no matter who's in the car." -Jack Lemmon
From: wa3wbu!john@uunet.UU.NET (John Gayman)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: US soldiers & Somalia
Date: 7 Jan 93 13:47:27 GMT
Organization: @ WA3WBU, Marysville, PA


In article <PKLAUREN.93Jan5130350@dante.nmsu.edu>, pklauren@nmsu.edu (Patrick M Klaurens) writes:
# I keep noticing it too.  I think that the standard M-16A2 is too long
# for house to house fighting.  By placing to butt of the rifle on the
# ...
# caliber.  I am plannining on building a leagal (16 1/2 ") kit gun
# using a 16 1/2" carbine upper reciever with a standard rifle lower.
# Mine takes 4 1/2" off o/a length of the weapon and his takes a full
# eleven inches off.
# pat


    Colt makes almost the exact same thing called with Sporter Lightweight.
 It uses the previous CAR upper and a standard lower. Makes for a very
 well proportioned managable gun.



						John




-- 
John Gayman, WA3WBU 
UUCP: uunet!wa3wbu!john
Packet: WA3WBU @ WB3EAH
From: sybok@athena.mit.edu (The Rifleman)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: AK-47/SKS aftermarket stocks/magazines
Date: 8 Jan 93 22:23:07 GMT
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology

Many people have been asking what exactly is prohibited with regard to
putting aftermarket stocks/mags on your AK/SKS; it appears the relevant
piece of legislation is U.S.C. 18 s. 922 (r), which states,

   "It shall be unlawful for any person to assemble from imported parts
    any semiautomatic rifle or any shotgun which is identical to any rifle
    or shotgun prohibited from importatation under section 925(d)(3) of this
    chapter as not being particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to
    sporting purposes except that this subsection shall not apply to--

      (1.) the assembly of any such rifle or shotgun for sale or distribution
           by a licensed manufacturer to the United States or any department
           or agency thereof or to any State or any department, agency, or
           political subdivision thereof; or 
 
      (2.) the assembly of any such rifle or shotgun for the purpose of 
           testing or experimentation authorized by the Secretary."



The only loophole I see is that if you took an imported SKS and attached
a folding stock _made in the USA_ to the SKS, then you wouldn't be
assembling anything "from imported parts" because the damning part was
not imported.

Any volunteers for a test case?  :-}
From: osan@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (Mr. X)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Large capacity magazines: design of...
Date: 8 Jan 93 22:22:43 GMT
Organization: Twilight Zone

In article <1993Jan7.171952.20149@porthos.cc.bellcore.com> fist@iscp.bellcore.com (Richard Pierson) writes:
##A friend and I were thinking about building a .22LR gatling gun... 
#Just got to get the TMs for the feed mechanism for a chain gun, dump alot of
##.22LR into the hopper and power up the electric drill... :-)
#
#There is a gun shop just outside of Stroudsburg PA on
#rt 611 (up in the Poconos) called "Bills" right next
#to the Beaver house (no it's a steak house, however up 
#the road a ways in Tobyhana ah never mind) He has or had
#(been a while since I was there) a hand built .22 gatling
#gun patterned after the Colt, complete with rotorary drum.
#It works and was built by a machinist complete with a real
#nice wood cassion and super detailed. It is about 2 feet 
#high and 3 feet long. Beautiful.

	Gatling gun plans are available for $39.90 from the following:

	RG-G Inc.
	PO Box 1261
	Conifer, CO
	80433

	Plans are for .22 LR, and are scalable.  I have not ordered these, nor
	have I built them, so I cannot attest to the soundness of the design,
	though the picture in the ad looks pretty impressive.

	If you order these, perhaps you could let me (us) know what the
	quality is like.

	-Andy V.
From: ksw9324@zeus.tamu.edu (WASHBURN, KENNETH SCOTT)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Norinco AK
Date: 5 Jan 93 23:15:40 GMT
Organization: Texas A&M University, Academic Computing Services

I Have a Norinco AK and have had nothing but excellent results with it.  The 
woodwork is a little on the rough side, but this rifle is an excellent buy.  
It is also possible to buy good, non-corrosive ammo at giveaway prices.  IMHO,
the AK is an excellent "fun" gun and an adequate deer rifle if the proper
bullet is chosen.  There is the added advantage of being able to buy supplies
for the rifle.  The original 30 rd mags work well, but I recommend buying a
5 rd mag for hunting, and the 75 rd drum is great.  I would not suggest trying
to scope the rifle.
From: cower@csli.stanford.edu (Richard Cower)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: SKS/AK accuracy - how good can they get?
Date: 8 Jan 93 14:05:58 GMT
Organization: CSLI, Stanford University


I've seen reports that the SKS's/AK's  don't/can't shoot tight groups, say...
under an inch at 100 yds. I think most people shooting these things are
using that inexpensive Chinese/East German ammo that is available.

Has anyone tried carefully preparing some loads for one of these
SKS (or AK) rifles, and seeing what they are capable of? Do the uniform
primer pockets, weighing brass, trimming to shortest case, de-burring
flash hole, etc, etc. 

I don't know what they will do, but it be an interesting experiment.
I'd do it, but I don't have any 7.62 brass (yet). Clinton might change
that, we'll see....

By the way - if this cheap ammo goes away, H116 powder (surplus for about $36
for 8 lbs will work for 7.62X39 with the 123 gr. bullet). Pick some up.
Hodgdon (913-362-9455) will give you loading data.

...rich
From: rielly_s@apollo.hp.com (Stephen M. Rielly)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Non-Resident permits in R.I & CT.
Date: 8 Jan 93 14:07:33 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Corporation, Chelmsford, MA

Does anyone have inforamtion on how to obtain non-resident
permits in R.I and CT.? I called Providence and they say that 
it iss issued through the Attorney general's office. 
When I called Hartford they said that there is a non-resident
permit but one must obtain a "local" permit first from a police
chief, and if one would not give me one, try anorther town.
Seems to be a strange system. Anyone dealt with these states?
Email me or post here. thanks.

-Steve
From: ems@michael.apple.com (E. Michael Smith)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Black-powder, Pyrodex or ?
Date: 12 Jan 93 14:09:19 GMT
Organization: Circle 'C' Shellfish Ranch, Shores-of-the-Pacific, California

In article <1993Jan9.021809.15290@ncsu.edu> hes@unity.ncsu.edu (Henry E. Schaffer) writes:
#
#  Here is some information which I tracked down from the Patent
#Number on the Pyrodex can (and posted over a year ago.)
#
#Deflagrating propellant compositions
#Patent No. 4,128,443  1978  Daniel E. Pawlak, et. al.
                       ^^^^
Hmmm.  '78 + 17 = 95  ... Gee, I wonder if we will see a couple of
alternatives to Pyrodex in about 1996 ?

-- 

E. Michael Smith  ems@apple.COM

'Whatever you can do, or dream you can, begin it.  Boldness has
 genius, power and magic in it.'  -  Goethe

I am not responsible nor is anyone else.  Everything is disclaimed.
From: cccbbs!michael.proffitt@uceng.uc.EDU (Michael Proffitt)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: LEE LOAD MASTER
Date: 11 Jan 93 16:18:43 GMT
Organization: Cincinnati Computer Connection BBS - Cincinnati, OH - 513-752-8248

I have been using my Lee Load Master to reload some .38 specials and
have run into a problem.  For some reason, my small pistol primers have
been jumbling around in the primer feed.  When I inspect my finished
cartrige, some have the primer in upside down and some are doubled over
:( .  I have not had any explode while reloading, but I am not taking
anymore chances.  The first 50 that I loaded worked fine, but now I am
loosing about 30% to the primer problem.

For anyone who is not familiar with the load master, it is the lee fully
progressive press for both pistol and rifle reloading.
From: harp@netcom.com (Gregory O. Harp)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: 'falling' bullets
Date: 12 Jan 93 00:49:48 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)

Regarding the falling bullets argument, what does it matter if it's
moving 300fps or 1000fps?  300fps is sufficient to cause bodily harm
and/or death.  

I recall hearing stories (possibly urban legend) of pennies being
dropped from tall buildings (i.e. the Empire State Building and
taller) and killing people who were walking on the sidewalk below.
Also, witness what large hailstones do to cars.  Moral: Any object
falling from sufficient height is dangerous.

My advice: If you're going to fire straight up, position the gun just
under your jaw.  It should be legal to shoot idiots like that on
sight.

(No, I'm _not_ suggesting that _anyone_ commit suicide.  However, if
anyone has to die from such stupidity I'd rather it be the fools who
did the shooting in the first place.)
-- 
-----------------Greg-Harp----------------harp@netcom.com------------------
  "I think I've reached that point / Where every word that you write /
  Of every blood dark sea / And every soul black night / And every dream
  you dream me in / And every perfect free from sin / And burning eyes /
  And hearts on fire / Are just the same old song" -- The Cure
From: alexank@chert.cs.orst.edu (Kelly Alexander)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Norinco AK
Date: 6 Jan 93 18:22:02 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Department, Oregon State University


In article <5JAN199312563731@zeus.tamu.edu>, ksw9324@zeus.tamu.edu (WASHBURN, KENNETH SCOTT) writes:

# I Have a Norinco AK and have had nothing but excellent results with it.  The 
# woodwork is a little on the rough side, but this rifle is an excellent buy.  
 
[stuff deleted]

# 5 rd mag for hunting, and the 75 rd drum is great.  I would not suggest trying
# to scope the rifle.

	I have a Norinco AK also, and it's hard to stop it.  I managed
to fire 1000+ rounds over 6 months w/o cleaning it (something I would
never do with any other gun) and it worked just fine.  It also had part
of a pine tree branch in the workings when I chambered a round while
hiding in a tree, and it didn't mind at all.
	Mine came with a mounted scope, and it was just about useless.  When
ever you take it apart to clean it, the scope has to come off.  Not exactly
the best way to keep the scope lined up.


---------------------------------------------------------------------
     Kelly Scott Alexander          alexank@research.cs.orst.edu
	    AI/Parallel Research Suns System Administrator
	      Oregon State University, Computer Science
---------------------------------------------------------------------
From: petekunz@iiic.ethz.ch (Peter John Kunz)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: AR-15 accessories wnated
Date: 4 Jan 93 18:34:24 GMT
Organization: Dept. Informatik, Swiss Federal Institute of Technology (ETH)

hi folks,

hope you all had a good start into the new year.

i just got an AR-15A2 and want to add some accessories. i'd like your advice on hwta toget, what not to get and where to get it.
major stuff i'm planning on getting:
scope
mount
bipods (hey, that's all they teach you here in the army)
mags
probably a cheek rest
...

thanks for all tips and pointers.


cu
-pete


-- 
Peter J. Kunz	Vogesenstr. 60	4106 Therwil	Switzerland
petekunz@iiic.ethz.ch	pkunz@amiga.physik.unizh.ch
From: miles@ms.uky.edu (Stephen D. Grant)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: FAL sporter
Date: 7 Jan 93 23:59:58 GMT
Organization: University of Kentucky, USA. -5 GMT

Also, can the old-style FN-FAL stocks be put back onto the sporter version?
Like can be done with the H&K.
While we're at it, how bout the Galils? Can they wear the old furniture?
From: jheath@fieldofdreams.npirs.purdue.edu (Jim Heath)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Case Trimming
Date: 7 Jan 93 23:59:30 GMT
Organization: Center for Environmental and Regulatory Information Systems, Purdue University

After our club meeting last night, one of our rifle shooters was asking
about progressives for reloading .308 and .30-06.  I would be interested
in recommendations for this, I thought the Lee Loadmaster or Dillon 650
(or 1050) could be adapted to feed cases and auto-indexed [2 of my
criterion ;-{)], but we couldn't come up with a way to automate trimming
his cases.  He said he had to do it every time (It sounded to me like he
might be loading them a leetle bit hot.).  I am interested myself, since I
hope to start reloading .308 and maybe the .30 (7.62x???) Russian
(presuming I can find brass for the Russian, most of the stuff I have seen
is copper coated steel).  Does anyone make an automated case trimmer? 

I told him about the "system" for lubricating cases using Lee water soluble
lubricant and water and dunking the cases, but I have only used this with
.223.  Has anyone out there used this idea with bigger cases?  If not, is
there some reason it wouldn't work?  I don't remember any mention of
larger cases in the American Rifleman article that described how to do this.
-- 
"Land of song, said the warrior bard,           Jim Heath
Though all the world betrays thee.
One sword, at least, thy rights shall guard, (The Minstrel Boy)
One faithful harp will praise thee."         (Thomas Moore)
From: rielly_s@apollo.hp.com (Stephen M. Rielly)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Surplus Ammo
Date: 5 Jan 93 23:15:11 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Corporation, Chelmsford, MA

Does anyone have any insight to the persistent
rumors about surplus ammo not being imported anymore 
after Clinton gets in? Any ideas or speculations on 
this? 

-Steve
From: jd@latcs1.lat.oz.au (John Dimogotsis)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: accuracy of .40s&w vs. 9mm
Date: 11 Jan 93 04:18:38 GMT
Organization: Comp Sci, La Trobe Uni, Australia


	I recently read an article comparing the P7M10 in .40 with the
	9mm P7M8/13.
	The author was very happy with the .40 version even if it was  
	a bit heavy.
	Though very accurate for defrence purposes (180gr black talons 
	performing the best if my memory serves me right) the 9mm was
	more accurate with most types of loads.

	So I was wandering if 9mm is inherently more accurate than .40 ?
	(All else being equal.)
	Can anyone help me out here, what about other callibers ?
	I do have a friend who believes .45acp is more accurate than 9mm,
	is this totally subjective and dependent on the particular
	guns he uses, or do different callibers offer much different
	accuracy.
	What other aspects of the round's design/shape affect accuracy?
	I'm obviously no expert so don't flame me if this sounds stupid.
		Thanks in advance for all answers.
						jd
From: wthomas@oasys.dt.navy.mil (William Thomas)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Source of .308 ammo
Date: 9 Jan 93 14:25:09 GMT
Organization: Carderock Division, NSWC, Bethesda, MD


continue receiving suggestions from the readers concerning
good sources of .308 for shooting target.  One interesting
aspects of the comments that I have presently received, both on
and off the news net, is is the opinion that NORINCO's non-corrosive
 .308 ammo is really pretty darn good. What does everyone else think?
bill thomas
From: dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Major 9
Date: 6 Jan 93 22:26:20 GMT
Organization: The Courts of Chaos * 501-985-0059 * Public Access Usenet


-> You know, I've always wondered *why* they developed the 9x21
-> cartridge when the (virtually unused) 9mm Winchester Magnum
-> already existed (I believe I've heard it is 9x22). I'm pretty
-> sure 9mm Win. Mag. predates 9x21 by quite a bit.

 There were some pretty hot 9mms developed in Europe before the 9mm
Parabellum became the standard.
From: mcdphx!systemname!gcall@enuucp.eas.asu.edu (Glen Call)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: 'falling' bullets
Date: 12 Jan 93 22:17:42 GMT
Organization: Motorola Computer Group Marketing


In article <1993Jan10.003001.23019@btree.uucp>, btree!hale@UCSD.EDU (Bob Hale) writes:
[mention of person dying from falling bullet deleted]

|> Such deaths are rare but *they are completely avoidable*.  Since
|> a vertically falling bullet can injure or kill the bullet should
|> not be fired in an uncontrolled situation (such as in the middle
|> of the city).

Gee, maybe someone needs to market a new line of Kevlar headware.  It would
probably be a resounding success in LA. :-(

Glen
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Glen Call                          Technical Marketing Systems Engineer
Motorola Computer Systems, Inc.    gcall@phx.mcd.mot.com or mcdapps!gcall
DISCLAIMER: The above is strictly my opinion.  I DO NOT SPEAK FOR MOTOROLA!
From: fcrary@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (Frank Crary)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Cleaning freq. of a muzzle loader in the old days
Date: 9 Jan 93 22:15:44 GMT
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder

In article <1993Jan9.002321.27036@PacBell.COM> malodah@srv.pacbell.com (Martin Lodahl) writes:
#...Trap-door Springfields were known to pull the
#heads off of cases upon extraction when the chamber was too badly
#fouled, and I'm told this took many rifles out of action at Little
#Big Horn.  

The Seventh Cavalry was using carbines (I don't recall the model) not
Springfield rifles, but there was a major problem with extractors
ripping off case heads. (They were fighting with four men shooting 
and a fifth clearing jams.) However, I had heard this explained as
a heating problem: After a sustained fire heated up the gun, and the
metal parts expanded slightly, the extractor no longer worked properly...

                                                  Frank Crary
                                                  CU Boulder
From: bbx!bbxrbk!russ@unmvax.cs.unm.edu (Russ Kepler)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Reloader mail-order sources
Date: 4 Jan 93 23:15:17 GMT
Organization: russ at home in Albuquerque New Mexico

In article <615@ssdc.UUCP> ssdc!jbasara@uunet.UU.NET (Jim Basara) writes:
#I too am in the market for a shotgun reloader.  My question is:  Are there
#any good mail order sources for reloaders??? I know that Gander Mountain
#carries the MEC line but does anyone carry Hornady??

The best price I can find on the Hornady APEX-91 is $241.72 (12 ga,
auto reloader configuration) from natchex Shooter's Supplies
1-800-251-7839).  They have a $35 minimum on each order, charge a
fixed $3.50 for a credit card order and charge the UPS rate on
shipping.  I order a lot from these folks.

If you have an FFL you'll likely be able to beat these prices by 5-10%
or so, but then you wouldn't be asking this question either...

-- 
Russ Kepler, posting from home   russ@bbx.basis.com, bbxrbk!russ@bbx.basis.com
"It's better to be quotable than to be honest" - Tom Stoppard