From: judy@locus.com (Judy Leedom Tyrer)
Newsgroups: misc.kids
Subject: Re: God's Family Values
Date: 17 Aug 92 19:42:52 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Locus Computing Corporation, Los Angeles, California

In article <16j8joINN8lc@iraul1.ira.uka.de> stoesser@i31s22.ira.uka.de (Achim Stoesser) writes:
>In article <1992Aug14.172751.24678@pony.Ingres.COM>, dan@Ingres.COM (Daniel J. Dick) writes:
>...
>|> Well, I'd say these christians are there but not in the news.  Anyone want
>|> to take a guess why???  If you want the authoritative source-book on
>|> christianity for a true and honest view of what christianity is and is not,
>|> go straight to the Bible. 
>
>Agreed, that's a good start.  Another good idea is to get an encyclopaedia and
>to look up "[children's (*)] crusade,", "inquisition," "index librorum 
>prohibitorum," "Giordano Bruno," "Opus Dei," "witch," etc.
>

Of course, no Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Pagans, etc. have EVER oppressed or
tried to dominate others in the world.  Nope, in the history of ALL mankind
only Christians behave that way.  Yeah, right.

I have a more concrete example of why Christians "aren't there" when it comes
to media coverage.  Our church has a significant sponsorship of "Reproductive
Rights" here in California.  However, when the news media covers the abortion
issue, the "Right to Life" people are very forward with their religion being
the basis for why they believe what they do.  The Christians who favor 
reproductive rights do not use thier religion as their weapon in a political 
fight.  Perhaps we should, but we don't.  

>                              The Bible teaches that many things are sin and
>|> teaches people to warn others, but it says nothing to indicate that people
>|> are to go out and hate, kill, and bash one another.  Refusing to support
>|> is not bashing.  Prefering is not bashing.  
>
>Oops, what bibles do you have? Mine say (among others) that homosexuals,
>witches (Ex 22:18 / Lev 20:13), and children (*) who disobey their parents
>(Deut 21:18--21, Ex 21:17, Lev 20:9, Mt 15:4) have to be killed.
>

Well, Exodus, Leviticus, and Deutoronomy is all Old Testament.  So here you
have to blame the Jews.  Anyway you look at it, Christianity evolved from
Judaism.  Jesus was Jewish.  This is "the old law" which most Christians believe
they are no longer held to (though Jesus claimed he was here to uphold the
old law - an interesting debate but more appropriate for 
soc.religion.christian).  But you mention Matthew, so I have to look this one
up.  Once again, we have an accurate truth spoken by Jesus.  "For God said,
'Honor your father and your mother,' and 'Woever speaks evil of father or
mother must surely die.'"  And it's true.  The Old Testament does say these
things.  (Of course, we could get into semantics on whether declaring someone
must die is the equivalent of killing them - but that's a semantical debate).

But look at what Jesus says next, "But you say that whoever tells father or
mother, 'Whatever support you might have had from me is given to God,' then
that person need not honor the father.  So, for the sake of your tradition,
you make void the word of God.  You hypocrites!"  So, it sounds like, to me
at least, that Jesus is saying that honoring father and mother by providing
for them in their old age is more important than giving all your money away
to some church or TV Evangelist in the name of God.  Gee, sounds pretty 
reasonable to me.  And doesn't sound like He's advocating going out and killing
a bunch of people, either.

>That's not exactly what I'd call "preferring" or "refusing to support."
>

No, it's what I'd call "selective Biblical quotations to prove your point" and
a favorite pasttime among Christians (and part of religious tradition among
Jews).  But it doesn't prove your point.  Unless you are going to say that
all who believe in any part of the Bible are ________.  In that case, don't
forget to include the Muslims, because they are also based on the Old Testament,
believed Jesus was a prophet (just not THE prophet) etc.  And now you have
rejected Judaism, Christianity, and Muslim.  Okay, as long as that's what you're
doing I have no problem with it.  But if you're going to accept Judaism and
reject Christianity based on the Old Testament, then you're not going to have
much chance of winning the logic side of your argument.

>|> If you want to find a real hypocrite, or a real biggot, or a real hateful
>|> bashing person, don't go looking for them in the church!  Keep in mind that
>|> the devil places his hypocrites inside the church to give the hypocrites
>|> outside someone to point their fingers at!
>
>Okay, that beats me. So the atrocities and immoralities of, say, Christians,
>are the work of Satan. Priests abusing children (*), for example.

YES!  They are the work of evil in mankind.  To coin a phrase from an earlier
post, "You're not trying to insinuate that ONLY priests abuse children, are
you?"  

So, tell me of a political, religious, charity, I'll take ANY organization
that is made of human beings that does NOT have the same sin and evil in it
that Christianity does.  Find me a country where no one has EVER been 
persecuted for any reason.  Prove that the evil you claim is purely Christian
does not live outside of Christendom.  Because it does.  And therefore, it is
irrelevant.  Because I will admit that Christianity has failed to rid the
world of evil.  It has failed to rid its own churches of evil.  Those who speak
the name of Jesus do not always walk in his ways.  

The question to me is not "Do these people live up to their highest standards"
but "What IF they were able to."  And if everyone could actually follow Christ
and walk as he walked on this earth, we'd know what heaven is like.  Sadly,
only a handful have come even close.  Two stand out to me, Martin Luther King,
Jr. and Mother Teresa.  These two humans embody the spirit of Christ.  So,
what IF we could all embody that spirit that purely.  Pretty interesting
change in world policy, don't you think?

-- 
Judy Leedom Tyrer

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions"	- William Blake