From: selvakum@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca (C.R.Selvakumar - Electrical Engineering)
Subject: Re: Thiruppaavai Verses 18-20
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 22:45:06 GMT

In article <1993Jan4.174643.18163@news.ysu.edu> ah724@yfn.ysu.edu (Sundara Pandian) writes:
>
>In a previous article, srini@ireq-num.hydro.qc.ca (Srinivasan K.) says:
>
>>In article <C0Aqty.9Ay@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca> selvakum@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca
>> (C.R.Selvakumar - Electrical Engineering) writes:
>>>        that these songs are supreme 'silEdais' ( pun).
>>>
>>>        I wonder anyone out there has more philosophical
>>>        'urai' for these songs..who can post some excerpts..
>>
>>I have a 'uRai' by a 'mElkOttai'(Karnataka) swamigaL. It is
>          ^^^^^^
> Typo. It is `urai'.

      Yes, uRai means to freeze. 'uRai pani' is solid ice ( because
      pani by itself although can mean ice can denote dew; hence to
      emphasize solid ice.. I used write home about the snow as
      nurai pani and pani_maavu or maNaRpani depending on the kind of
      snow..)

      thayir ( yogurt) is said to 'uRai' ( solidify). The tiny drops of
      'mOr' added to milk is called 'uRai mOr'. The phrase 'uRai kuththu'
      is also used.
>
>>very difficult to understand, not just because of the highly
>>religious language, but also due to the philosophical
>>extrapolations.
>>         
>>>     Great work, please keep it up. It would have been very interesting
>>>     to compare 'thiruppaavai' and 'thiruvembavai'..
>>>     anbudan
>>>     Selva
>>
>>I suggested the idea on December 12. But there was no response.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

     I probably missed it ! I have the Thiruvembaavai songs and I can
     post but since I don't have any standard urais I might have to 
     translate . Hope by next maargazhi there will be urais.. 


>>I notice that the Sanskrit word content in 'thiruvembaavai' is
>>substantially 'higher' than in 'thiruppaavai'. There are many

     I too think that Thiruvembaavai might contain more Sanskrit
     words. 

>>similar verse constructions. I think 'thiruvembaavai' was
>                              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>written after thiruppaavai. Who is the author? Also a lady?
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>Is she a lady naayanmaar?
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> `Thiruvembaavai'  is a work by Maniccavasakar. His other popular
>Tamil work is his `Thiruvaacakam'.  Maniccavasakar belonged to
                                     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>the 9th century, A.D. I think that the word `vaacakam' in his
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

       Sundara Pandian is right. Thiruvembavai was written by
       MaaNikkavaachagar supposedly in ThiruvaNNaamalai ( one
       of the most sacred places). But MaaNikkavaachagar's period
       is NOT 9th century A.D. This view of MaaNikkavaachagars
       period as 900 A.D was developed apparently
       because Appar ( Thirunaavukkarasar) and Sambandhar ( Thiru
       NYaanasambandhar) who lived in 7th century did not 
       mention about MaaNikkavaachagar. There has been much written
       on this ( examples: Maraimalai AdigaL and more recently
       Dr. Sivappriya has written many articles in Senthamizh Selvi
       in the 1990s claiming earlier date around 300 A.D. 

       I believe that Thiruvembaavai was written earlier ( it has only
       20 songs unlike Thiruppaavai ) than Thiruppaavai.

>`Thiruvaacakam' has a Sanskrit origin. Is it from `vasanam' ?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

     Do you mean the word 'thiruvaasagam' contains a Sanskrit word
     'vaasagam' ? The word 'vaasagam' is often taken to be of Sanskrit
     origin. However, vaay > vaach > vaak is quite a possibility.
     vaay = mouth. vaaymozhi is a tamil usage. vaaymai means truth
     ( original sense could have been 'true word'). vaakku = god's
      words ( note: aruL vaakku). 
     In tamil 'ya' becoming 'cha' is common 
             ( examples: paay ( flow) > paasanam ; 
                         kay ( bitter) > kasappu;
                         payalkaL ( boys) > pasangaL; 
                         kuyavan(potter) > kusavan
              and so on..)
     However, the word stem 'vaach or vaak' has strong connections to
     indoeuropean languages ( note the english words: 'vocal' and 'voice' and
     many words based on 'voc' ) and is quite well represented though
     I think mostly in romance languages ( latinic). Since the word
     'vaasagam' can be shown to be derived from Sanskrit many ( esp those
     who would consider any word in Skt with or without indoeuropean
     cognates as Sanskrit) consider it to be a Sanslkrit word.
     
     But taking the Tamil sense of vaasagam as vaaymozhi or True_words
     or niRaimozhi we have an esoteric sense. [ niRaimozhi means
     sacred truths. ThiruvaLLuvar's 
        'niRaimozhi maanthar perumai nilaththu
         maRaimozhi kaatti vidum"
    and a similar one in Tholkaapiyam are examples of 'niRaimozhi']
    I believe that 'vaasagam' is a Tamil word especailly in the sense
    used in Tamil. 

>His work `Thiruvaacakam' was acclaimed by the poets in his days
                         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>and I remember one verse praising this work. I don't remember
>who wrote this `veNpaa' but it is probably by Campanthar. It is,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

     No, not by Campanthar who lived in 6th-7th century. The following
     'veNpaa' is sung by Raamalinga AdigaL ( also known as
      vaLLalaar), I think. 

    Yes. Thiruvaasagam was nd is considered as the supreme work in the
    Saiva tradition. There was a 'marabu' ( = practice or tradition) that
    one should NOT write an ''urai' for it because only those who are
    'truly enlightend or Realized' are capable of writing one and
    thus for many many years there was no 'urai' as no one felt 
    worthy enough ( mere Tamil scholarship is NOT enough). This view
    was apparently because of the words in Thiruvaasagam :
         'solliya paattin poruL uNarthu solluvaar
            selvar sivapuraththil uLLaar'
         [ those who tell the meaning of these songs are truly
           in the 'enlightened world' ( sivapuram) fully realized.]
>
> "vaan_kalantha  maanicca vaasaka_nin  vaasakaththai
>  naan_kalanthu paadunkaal caR_kaRuppanch chaatrinilE
>  thEn_kalanthu  paal_kalanthu chezhun_karumbuc chuvai_kalanthu
>  oon_kalanthu uyir_kalanthu uvappaamal inippadhuvE."
>
>>K. Srinivasan at Hydro Quebec.
>>
>>
>
>-- 
>pax vobiscum,
>sundara pandian.
>ah724@yfn.ysu.edu


       anbudan
       - Selva