HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com (Jim Mann)
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Re: Thomas Jefferson
Date: 8 Oct 92 12:29:11 GMT
Reply-To: jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com

In article <1avqe6INN4i7@agate.berkeley.edu> alpet@ocf.berkeley.edu  
(Alex Petrushko) writes:
> In article <CB.92Oct7123627@tamarack13.timbuk> cb@tamarack13.timbuk  
(Chris Brewster) writes:
> >Someone at Washington University writes:
> >
> >   Thomas [Jefferson] disliked slavery much more than 
> >   Abraham Lincoln did.
> >
> >This statement is ridiculous: unsupported, unmeasurable, untrue.
> >
> Care to elaborate on your so far unfounded, unsupported, untrue
> statement? I have read both Fawn Brodie's book and various other  
sources
> dealing with Jefferson's attitude toward slavery and I don't find  
the
> original statement wholly wrong. Maybe you  can disprove that?
> 

I don't think the question is one of whether Jefferson disliked
slavery: he certainly disliked it and agonized over the fact that
he freed slaves (which he said he wanted to free, but couldn't
think of a way to do so in which they would be free but able to
support themselves).  The debate is over the statement that
"Jefferson hated slavery much more than Lincoln did."  THAT'S the
statement that is unsupported, and, for that matter, probably
not that interesting: both men hated slavery.  What difference does
it make which one hated it more?


--
Jim Mann            
Stratus Computer   jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com  
Newsgroups: soc.history
From: griffin@carson.u.washington.edu (Thomas Griffin)
Subject: Re: Enigma Codes and Alan Turing
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1992 00:04:32 GMT

Quote from I.J. Good, Cambridge University mathematician, in
his lecture titled "Early Work on Computers at Benchley" (the site of
the code-breaking team was Benchley Park). Please note that the
word >bombe< refers to the code-breaking machine.


It obviously could not be sufficient to merely simulate the Enigma
and to try all possible setups for a message, because 
no machine even now would be capable of running through
the 3 X 10 to the eight power possible states in a reasonable
time. So there had to be some further ingenuity in the bombe. This
I cannot describe, but I can only say that Gordon Welchman had one
of the basic ideas and Turing another one. My impression is that
Turing's idea was one that might not have been thought of by anyone
else for a long time and it greatly increased the power of the 
bombe.

from Ultra Goes to War: The Secret Story, by Ronald Lewin,
Hutchinson of London, 1978, pages 58-9





-- 
Tom Griffin, University of Washington
Internet: griffin@u.washington.edu
>>>>>20 years of school and then they put ya on the day shift<<<<<
Xref: sparky soc.history:8977 soc.culture.china:28148 soc.culture.taiwan:14526
From: gadfly@cbnewsi.cb.att.com (Gadfly)
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Re: Sputnik I - 35th anniversary
Summary: Memories.
Date: 8 Oct 92 17:34:35 GMT
Article-I.D.: cbnewsi.1992Oct8.173435.18143
Organization: AT&T

In article <84566@bcsaic.boeing.com>, rwojcik@atc.boeing.com
(Richard Wojcik,snake) writes:
> >35 years ago yesterday, the world's first artificial earth satellite
> >was launched. Before October 4, 1957 the earth had but one moon.
> >Today the earth has approximately 7000 moons.

Trivial nit dept:  Not including *the* moon, of course, which is
actually part of an earth-moon dual-planet system and not strictly
a satellite of the earth.

> Ah, this really takes me back.  The day after the launch my 5th grade
> teacher, Mrs. Schnerley, told the class:  "But they'll never put
> human beings in space or on the moon."  My little nine year old heart
> sank at this sober assessment of reality.  America beaten by the
> Russians, and my dream of becoming an astronaut crushed in one
> day.  What a bummer.  ;-)

Yeah--especially following those magnificent failures of the Vanguard
and Jupiter-C.  The Russian feat (which they must look back at with
quite nostalgic pride, I'd think) had one enormous benefit, though:
It was a shot in the arm--well, more of a slap upside the head--to
American science education.  Within a few short years of Sputnik
we had all new science textbooks put out by the Physical Sciences
Study Committee and of course the "new math".  We had a mission, and
we were all in it together.  Ou sont les neiges d'antans?

               *** ***
Ken Perlow   ***** *****
08 Oct 92   ****** ******   17 Vendemiaire An CCI
            *****   *****   gadfly@ihspc.att.com <- New address.
             ** ** ** **             ^^^
...L'AUDACE!   *** ***   TOUJOURS DE L'AUDACE!  ENCORE DE L'AUDACE!
From: hpb@hpb.cis.pitt.edu (Harry Bloomberg)
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: What happened to Mutlu?
Date: 8 Oct 92 20:19:39 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: University of Pittsburgh
Originator: hpb@hpb.cis.pitt.edu


   In the last few weeks, I noticed that my kill file has been trapping
fewer articles.  I became curious and went through the last two weeks of
soc.history.  I received a most unexpected reward for my efforts:

   I did not enounter one posting from Mutlu!

   What has happened to this net.pest?  Not that I want him back.  I
miss him the way one misses a case of jock itch.  I'm just curious as to
what happened to him.

Harry Bloomberg
hpb@vms.cis.pitt.edu
From: pcalahan@reed.edu (Patrick Calahan)
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Need Bibliography for Computer History
Date: 14 Oct 92 05:00:27 GMT
Article-I.D.: mac3.pcalahan-131092214906
Followup-To: soc.history
Organization: Reed College, Portland, OR

I am writing my undergraduate senior thesis on the development of
electronic
digital computing.  I am in the process of surveying the available
literature,
and would appreciate any bibliographical leads anyone has to offer me.

I have yet to pin down the subject and chronology precisely, but I plan to
begin with the early efforts in Germany, Britain, and America during WWII
and trace their postwar military development along with the first
commercial ventures in the 50s and perhaps into the early 60s.

If you've read or know anything interesting, or better yet, have done
similar work, please email me -- I'd like to talk to you.

Thanks in advance,
   pcalahan@reed.edu
		 Patrick Calahan
Newsgroups: soc.history
From: sos@oz.plymouth.edu (Steffan O'Sullivan)
Subject: Terminology: English Civil War
Reply-To: sos@oz.plymouth.edu (Steffan O'Sullivan)
Organization: Plymouth State College - Plymouth, N.H.
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 92 16:29:11 GMT

I am writing a story set in England in 1651, and some of the characters
are veterans of what we call the English Civil War of the 1640's.  What
would an Englishman of 1651 call those wars (for they started and
stopped and started again - or did they refer to it as one war?)?
Would the Puritans call it something other than what the Royalist
supporters would call it?

Any help appreciated!

-- 
  - Steffan O'Sullivan		         sos@oz.plymouth.edu
From: livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey)
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Re: Books on Chinese science & technology (was: World Culture . . .)
Date: 14 Oct 1992 20:20:50 GMT
Organization: sgi
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: solntze.wpd.sgi.com

In article <1992Oct14.153302.8584@cs.ucla.edu>, reiher@ficus.cs.ucla.edu (Peter Reiher) writes:
|> About five or six years ago, I heard about a series of scholarly books
|> examining in detail the progress of science and technology in China
|> throughout its history.  As I remember it, the books were written by
|> a single Western (possibly American) author.  Does anyone know the titles
|> and the author?  Thanks.

Possibly "Science and Civilization in China" by J. Needham, Cambridge
University Press 1954.

jon.
Newsgroups: soc.history
From: traynor@fnalo.fnal.gov
Subject: Roman roads: history?
Organization: Fermi National Accelerator Lab
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 04:28:35 GMT
X-Posted-From: fnalo.fnal.gov
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

Hello--

I've been reading of late on the military effectiveness of the Roman road
system.  A couple of questions:

	o Were civilians (especially merchants) allowed to use the system?
	  If so, how did it affect the Roman economy?

	o When the west fell, the roads fell into disrepair.  Did the 
	  Byzantines maintain the roads under their domain?  If so, what
 	  happened to the roads when the Ottomans, etc conquered the
	  empire--did they maintain them?

	o Any roads still in existence/use today?

It would help to reply directly via e-mail.  Thank you.

					-Mike Traynor

-- 
NNN  NN DDDD    Mike Traynor (ND '86)(Rice '93?) |||     Amiga 500 owner   ///
 N N N   D  D   Fermilab PO Box 500 MS 221 E683  |||     w/MMR 7 Meg DRAM ///
 N  NN   D  D   Batavia IL, 60510               //|\\    190 Meg HD   \\\/// 
NN   NN DDDD    (708) 879-6095 [ans. mach.]    /// \\\   14.4Kbps modem\XX/
From: hyde@cs.dal.ca (Bill Hyde)
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Re: Terminology: English Civil War
Date: 8 Oct 92 20:36:06 GMT
Organization: Math, Stats & CS, Dalhousie University, Halifax, NS, Canada

In article <1992Oct8.162911.26800@oz.plymouth.edu>, sos@oz.plymouth.edu (Steffan O'Sullivan) writes:
|> I am writing a story set in England in 1651, and some of the characters
|> are veterans of what we call the English Civil War of the 1640's.  What
|> would an Englishman of 1651 call those wars (for they started and
|> stopped and started again - or did they refer to it as one war?)?
|> Would the Puritans call it something other than what the Royalist
|> supporters would call it?
|> 
|> Any help appreciated!


	C.V. Wedgwood called one of her (excellent) books on
	the subject, "The King's War".  I think she took that
	from a phrase in common use.  Perusal of the book should
	give the answer


						Bill Hyde
Department of Oceanography
Dalhousie University,
Halifax, Nova Scotia
hyde@Ice.ATM.Dal.Ca or hyde@dalac
From: wats@scicom.AlphaCDC.COM (Bruce Watson)
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Re: What does BC really mean?
Date: 8 Oct 92 17:35:26 GMT
Organization: Alpha Science Computer Network, Denver, Co.

In article <1992Oct8.130423.8057@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu| rrothaus@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Richard Rothaus) writes:
|I posted a similar inquiry a few days ago and have since found an answer.  The
|dating system A.D. (anno domini) was popularized by Bede in the early Middle
|Ages.  It was not until the enlightenment that anyone felt a need to develop a
|similar system for the period before Christ.  Prior to the enlightenment
|scholars "knew" the world began about 4000 yrs before the birth of Christ and
|thus dated with A.M.--anno mundi--the year of the world.  The 4000 yrs before
|Christ was seriously challenged during the enlightenment and a French scholar
|used a new dating system that paralleled the A.D. system except backward.  He
|introduced this in a French textbook in the 17th century using a.C.  (apres
|Christ) which was adopted by English speaking scholars as B.C.

I'm bothered by the fact that there is no year zero in the A.D. B.C scheme.
I'd assumed that this happened because the scheme was created before 
the zero was in common use in the west.

-- 
Bruce Watson (wats@scicom)  Tumbra, Zorkovick; Sparkula zoom krackadomando.  
Newsgroups: soc.history
From: glhewitt@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Gary Livingston Hewitt)
Subject: Re: Thomas Jefferson
Originator: news@nimaster
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 13:28:18 GMT

In article <7069@transfer.stratus.com> jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com writes:
[much included stuff deleted]
>
>I don't think the question is one of whether Jefferson disliked
>slavery: he certainly disliked it and agonized over the fact that
>he freed slaves (which he said he wanted to free, but couldn't
>think of a way to do so in which they would be free but able to
                                  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>support themselves).  The debate is over the statement that
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>"Jefferson hated slavery much more than Lincoln did."  THAT'S the
>statement that is unsupported, and, for that matter, probably
>not that interesting: both men hated slavery.  What difference does
>it make which one hated it more?
>

Probably more like, "in which they would be free and HE (TJ) would
be able to support HIMself."  After a long lifetime of (I think)
sincere anti-slavery talk, Jefferson only freed a handful of slaves (all
from the Hemings family, notably)....  He was perpetually in debt, and in
the long run, he thought that standing by his debts was more important than
freeing the slaves.  I think that says something about the degree of TJs
hatred of slavery (or that, in the "plagiarized" Lockean formulation,
"property" was more important than "liberty.")

Of course, Lincoln was never faced with that kind of decision -- though
in 1862, knowing that the Emancipation Proc. would lose him a whole lot
of support in the North, he still went on with it....

GARY
-- 
  ++====+========+==========+=======+===++
  ||    |    Gary| L. Hewitt|       |   ||  HELP!  I've been imprisoned
  || glh|ewitt@ph|oenix.prin|ceton.e|du ||  by my .signature!  HELP!
  ++====+========+==========+=======+===++
From: d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se (Bertil Jonell)
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Re: World Culture and Western Culture
Summary: Let's see if it gets to soc.history on the third try...
Date: 9 Oct 92 09:43:12 GMT
Organization: Chalmers University of Technology

In article <81047@ut-emx.uucp> joe@astro.as.utexas.edu (Joe Wang) writes:
>In article <1992Sep29.191755.1559@hellgate.utah.edu> speterse%peruvian.utah.edu@cs.utah.edu (soren--Ms. Jackson if you're nasty) writes:
>>I don't think anyone in the third world is claiming that "all cultural
>>traditions are equally valuable".  

>Ditto.  The idea of "cultural relativism" is peculiar to the West.  I
>can't think of any non-Western culture which advocates this idea.

  So, what view do non-Western cultures have on the relative merits of 
different cultures? That their own is superior over all others? That their own
is superior to some and inferior to some? That their own is inferior to
all others? Or that 'superior' and 'inferior' don't have any meaning when
talking about cultures (aka cultural relativism)?

-bertil-
--
"It can be shown that for any nutty theory, beyond-the-fringe political view or
 strange religion there exists a proponent on the Net. The proof is left as an
 exercise for your kill-file."
		"Revive the Swedish-Madagascan Brigand Pact!"
From: hom00@ccc.amdahl.com (Harold O Morris)
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Re: World Culture and Western Culture
Date: 12 Oct 92 20:35:27 GMT
Reply-To: hom00@JUTS.uts.amdahl.com (Harold O Morris)
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA

>Still the westerners, despitre how much they exploited and took from the terr-
>itories conquered, also enriched the local culture (yes, they did) and created
>some new civilization instead of that destroyed. The Mongols just only 
>destroyed, they didn't create _anything_ new.

I found it interesting to learn, from Daniel J. Boorsten's _The
Discoverers_ (with other tidbits from other sources) that the Mongels
provided for a century or so an avenue of communication between Europe
and China.

This lead to many European adventurers, missionaries, and merchants
finding their way into the depths of the east, of whom Macro Polo was
the most communicative.  He actually spent many years as some kind of
official of the current Khan.

Marco Polo's writing then helped lead Christopher Columbus to the remarkable
conclusion that the nearest far-east landmass, Japan, was about 3000 miles
from European shores.

I suspect that more than that came from this period of interchange between
Europe and the Far East, but can't substantiate that.
Newsgroups: soc.history
From: pdunn@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Patrick L Dunn)
Subject: Re: UN-WISE QUOTES from the Past
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 02:10:35 GMT

Along these lines, the head of the US patent office just after the Civil War 
made a statement that the patent office should be shut down because everything 
that could possibly be invented already had been (I can't remeber exactly what 
he said.

PDunn
Newsgroups: soc.history
From: redmond@engr.wisc.edu (Mike Redmond)
Subject: Where can I find a book of trends (and statistics)
Organization: College of Engineering, Univ. of Wisconsin-Madison
Date: 14 Oct 92 20:20:56 CDT
Originator: redmond@hobie.engr.wisc.edu
Keywords: trends statistics


I am preparing a talk about the trend in performance/price in computing
and how that relates to other interesting statistics. I noted the discussion
here on using statistical abstracts, particularly for population. I will
be looking those up. What I am now looking for is a place to find (preferably
raw data in machine readable form) statistics like GNP, employment, stock 
values, number of bank transactions, number of airline reservations, national
dept, number of degrees granted, and on and on...for the last 10 years.

I also am looking for the basic computing statistics (which I can make
up since I've been around for the last 10 years buying things) that
accurately reflect mips/$, RAM bits/$, disk storage bits/$, and on.

The basic idea is to compare things in general to mips/$, with the
assumption that the mips/$ trend generally far outpaces others except, perhaps
the trends in industries that have fully integrated computing to do
their business (bank transactions per day, reservations per day...).

Any help in pointing me to the sources for this information would be more
than just greatly appreciated. In the end, I would be willing to post
what I found and the way at least one person might interpret them.

Thanks much,

Mike Redmond
Director, CAE  UW-Madison

PS I have waited 'til the last minute on my talk...
I will be using any info I get by Friday (end) to prepare that part at least.
From: rwojcik@atc.boeing.com (Richard Wojcik,snake)
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Re: Sputnik I - 35th anniversary
Date: 7 Oct 92 15:52:37 GMT
Reply-To: rwojcik@atc.boeing.com
Organization: Research & Technology

In article 28264@scicom.AlphaCDC.COM, wats@scicom.AlphaCDC.COM (Bruce Watson) writes:
>
>35 years ago yesterday, the world's first artificial earth satellite was
>launched. Before October 4, 1957 the earth had but one moon. Today
>the earth has approximately 7000 moons.

Ah, this really takes me back.  The day after the launch my 5th grade teacher,
Mrs. Schnerley, told the class:  "But they'll never put human beings in space or on
the moon."  My little nine year old heart sank at this sober assessment of reality.  
America beaten by the Russians, and my dream of becoming an astronaut crushed in one
day.  What a bummer.  ;-)

-----
Disclaimer:  Opinions expressed above are not those of my employer.

    Rick Wojcik   (rwojcik@atc.boeing.com)   Seattle, WA
From: steinly@topaz.ucsc.edu (Steinn Sigurdsson)
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Re: Thomas Jefferson?
Date: 7 Oct 92 17:21:27
Organization: Lick Observatory/UCO
	<CB.92Oct7122949@tamarack13.timbuk>
NNTP-Posting-Host: topaz.ucsc.edu
In-reply-to: cb@tamarack13.timbuk's message of 7 Oct 92 12:29:53 CDT

In article <CB.92Oct7122949@tamarack13.timbuk> cb@tamarack13.timbuk (Chris Brewster) writes:


   Clayton Cramer writes:

      If I refer to "a thousand points of light,"
      no one will consider that I am plagiarizing George Bush.  
      (Where the heck did he get this phrase?)
       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

   From Peggy Noonan.

Nah, Phil the restauranteur, Everybody knows that!

*  Steinn Sigurdsson   			Lick Observatory      	*
*  steinly@lick.ucsc.edu		"standard disclaimer"  	*
*  I know people whose idea of fun				*
*  Is throwing stones in the river in the afternoon sun		*
*  Oh let me be as free as them					*
*  				- BB 1986			*

Newsgroups: soc.history
From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Subject: Re: Enigma Codes and Alan Turing
Organization: Brown University Department of Computer Science
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 15:58:26 GMT

morna@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Morna J Findlay) writes:

#I've just been to see the rather good play "Breaking the Code" about
#the life and tragic end of Alan Turing.

Amazing! I saw it in '87 in London. Is Derek Jacoby still acting?

#In the pub afterwards, disagreemenst ensued about whether Turing
#did have a brainwave than enabled British scientists to decipher
#the code or not.

He did break the code, more accurtaely he led a group of mathemticians
and engineers who did it. 

Turing is considered as one of the fathers of theoretical computer
science. The most basic model of computation is called "Turing machine".

#Did the Allies capture a code-book?

I think they only captured the machine, but not the code-book,
so a lot of work was necessary to break the code. If I am not
mistaken they got it when a German submarine surrendered.

#Can anyone tell the whole story?

I guess not... this is what I remember anyway :-)

-Danny Keren.
From: court@newton.physics.mun.ca (J. Lewis)
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Re: What does BC really mean?
Date: 12 Oct 92 15:05:01 GMT
Organization: Memorial University of Newfoundland

If recollection serves, isn't it usual to write "a.*J.*C." in French,
for "avant Je'sus Christ?"

John Lewis
Memorial University of Nfld.
From: livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey)
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Re: Terminology: English Civil War
Date: 8 Oct 92 20:00:37 GMT
Organization: sgi
NNTP-Posting-Host: solntze.wpd.sgi.com

In article <1992Oct8.162911.26800@oz.plymouth.edu>, sos@oz.plymouth.edu (Steffan O'Sullivan) writes:
|> I am writing a story set in England in 1651, and some of the characters
|> are veterans of what we call the English Civil War of the 1640's.  What
|> would an Englishman of 1651 call those wars (for they started and
|> stopped and started again - or did they refer to it as one war?)?
|> Would the Puritans call it something other than what the Royalist
|> supporters would call it?

You might read John Evelyn's diaries.  He lived through the
Civil War and has a good deal to say about it and its aftermath.

jon. 
Newsgroups: soc.history
From: court@newton.physics.mun.ca (J. Lewis)
Subject: Re: Enigma Codes and Alan Turing
Organization: Memorial University of Newfoundland
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1992 19:26:10 GMT
From: rwojcik@atc.boeing.com (Richard Wojcik,snake)
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Re: Marbury v Madison (US 1803)
Date: 8 Oct 92 15:11:10 GMT
Reply-To: rwojcik@atc.boeing.com
Organization: Research & Technology

In article 2820@midway.uchicago.edu, thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu (Citecheck Hell) writes:
>Remember also that Marshall did not have available to him the text of
>the Convention debates, which weren't published until after Marbury.
>(Not sure of exact date offhand.)

If you are referring to Madison's notes on the Convention debates, then they 
weren't published until after his death.  And he outlived all of the others.
I would hesitate to characterize his notes, which were apparently polished up
at home, "the text of the Convention debates."  No matter how accurate Madison
tried to be, there were probably omissions and errors.  And nobody who
participated in the Convention ever got a chance to critique the notes.

-----
Disclaimer:  Opinions expressed above are not those of my employer.

    Rick Wojcik   (rwojcik@atc.boeing.com)   Seattle, WA
Organization: Washington University, St. Louis
Date:         Wed, 07 Oct 92 08:15:38 CST
From:         C05705DA@WUVMD
To:           NETNEWS@WUVMD
Subject:         Thomas Jefferson
Newsgroups:   soc.history

Thomas Jeffersonwas born of a southern iristocrat (sp?) who had slaves.
Therefore, Thomas grew up with slavery as being the norm.  One of
Thomas' early professions was farming over a thousand acres I beleive,
which required slaves.  He took good care of his slaves, though I AM
NOT promoting or approve of the slavery institution.  Thomas Jefferson
found himself in a delima.  How to get rid of slavery without going
broke?  He finally went for broke and freed his slaves.  He considered
this to be one of his four great acheivemnets.  Thomas disliked slavery
much more than Abraham Lincoln did.