HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Tue, 15 Sep 1992 11:22:22 CDT
From:         Yvette Traylor <YST1@DCCCDBIT.BITNET>
Subject:      New Age in Schools

> Subject: New Age in Schools
>
> Ankerberg is doing a lengthy program on New Age infiltration into schools?
>
> Any interest?
>
 Maks
I saw the show, but still would be  interested in receiving what ever
you have to send out about it.


   Yvette Traylor     "We are His people and the sheep of his pasture."
   Dallas County Community College District             Psalm 100:3
   Computer Programmer/Analyst  in  Dallas - Texas
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Date:         Sun, 13 Sep 1992 08:52:00 CDT
From:         BKCOBB@LIFE.UAMS.EDU
Subject:      Election

Dear Lon;

>What you are talking about is the doctrine, held by some, of double
>predestination.  This doctrine was specifically repudiated by the
>early church, which at the same time supported the doctrine of
>election as outlined.  Again (I seem to be recommending this a lot
>lately), read the Canons of the Council of Orange, available from
>the CHRISTIA library.  Send the message GET COUNCIL ORANGE to
>LISTSERV@ASUACAD.  Personally, I do not hold to the doctrine of
>double predestination.

>One can, however, make a good case for it from the passage in
>Romans 9:19ff.

Thanks for the info.  I'll get that document.

I have always used Scofield's definition of election as a working definition:

(1) "the sovreign act of God in grace whereby certain persons are chosen from
among mankind for himself", (2) the sovreign act of God whereby certain
elect persons are chosen for distinctive service for him."

I define predestination as 'to determine beforehand the occurrence of events'

Are these the definitions you would use for election and predestination?
If not, would you mind giving your definition for the terms?


Brian
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Date:         Sat, 12 Sep 1992 12:31:33 EDT
From:         Lon Mendelsohn <LMENDELS@CMS.CC.WAYNE.EDU>
Subject:      Re: The unelectable elect.
              11 Sep 1992 13:44:00 CDT from <BKCOBB@LIFE.UAMS.EDU>

Brian,

Regarding the belief that the doctrine of election necessarily
means that God not only elects some people to salvation but also
elects other people to condemnation:

I think that this view fails to understand what election is all
about.  What needs to be understood is that we are all deserving
of condemnation, but God in His great mercy saves some of us.  We
shouldn't marvel at the fact that God condemns the wicked -- after
all, that's just simple justice.  What's so marvelous is that God
saves anyone at all.

Shalom,

Lon Mendelsohn
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Date:         Tue, 8 Sep 1992 12:48:52 CDT
Comments:     Answering received message
From:         THERESA BLACKWELL <TBLACKWL@USMCP6.BITNET>
Subject:      PPPPBLLLLLT! :)

 Tim....
 Ya "scumbag".... (NOT!!!)
 I think you deserve such a vacation if what you do is related to
 computers!  My ex-boyfriend still works for this University, and
 when he moved, he wound up within arms' length from a building on
 the Gulf Coast campus!!!
 I don't know if I could handle living that close to the workplace.
 And, what's bad, is he goes in around eight AM, and sometimes
 comes home at 1:30 AM... depending on what was wrong with the system.
 (I'm sure all the other 'puter operators here sympathize!!!)
 I'd have loved to attend the Communion service you said was held
 outdoors... That would have been so AWESOME... to see different
 denominations taking part in that ordinance.  My former roomie,
 Joy, tells me these things can be extremely touching.
 (BTW... I'm Southern Baptist... the church I attend, where my
 Dad is music/youth minister, holds OPEN communion.!!!)
 This means, that you could be Catholic, and still take part in
 our Communion service.
 Neat, ain't it???
 I do believe you and a good friend of mine need to get together and
 go sailing out on the Gulf of Mexico!!! He loves to sail, and due
 to this fact, everyone who knows him (Greg) ... calls him "HOBIE"...
 :)
 Wish someone would teach me how to sail... I would have loved to
 have been on the team of AMERICA CUBED....
 The America's Cup race = AWESOME...
 when we almost lost the main mast, I thought... wow, what wind!!!!
 (Shows me how powerful God is....)
 I've typed enough to keep you reading for 20 minutes.
 God Bless... (I'm closing this thing!)
 "G" / Theresa

 * <TBLACKWL@USMCP6.BITNET>
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Date:         Mon, 14 Sep 1992 22:45:00 PDT
From:         Barry Wadsworth <BARRYW@UCSFVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Gays want to be left alone???

Kerry,
Thanks. And that was a very good point. I wish you the best!
INC
BarryW@UCSF
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Date:         Tue, 8 Sep 1992 14:14:27 CDT
From:         Jesse Carnes <NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      ????? on the Second Coming

Dear All ;

Just an open question :

"What were the initial RECIPIENTS of Pauline, Petrine, or Johannine letters to
THINK when their respective Apostolic writers wrote in the following terms?" :

"Beloved, THIS is the LAST HOUR."  |  "and as YOU hasten its COMING."
"The END of all things is NEAR."   |
"... in these LAST DAYS."          |
"as you SEE the Day approaching."  |




Jesse Carnes
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
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Date:         Thu, 10 Sep 1992 03:51:56 EDT
From:         JEK@NIHCU.BITNET
Subject: Gallicanism (was Re: Church and Rome)

 > This talk of Gallicans made me wonder. Are there any remnants of
 > followers of the French Church left? Is there a French Pope in
 > exile, waiting to reassert power?(as is often the case of those
 > who lose a fight--they don't always just dissolve into
 > nothingness.)
 > >     --Kerry (curious as usual)

The Gallicans are NOT the group that had a rival French pope at
Avignon in the late Middle Ages (I am not sure whether you are
identifying the two groups or just noting that the one reminded you
of the other). The Avignon party lost out when the Council of
Constance recognized Martin V as Pope, and as far as I can tell,
their defeat was total and permanent. The Gallicans are (or were) a
school of thought among theologians, mostly in France, that
recognized the Pope as Head of the Church, but favored a more
decentralized government of the church than some other theologians
(especially popes) of their time (mostly Louis XIV, but also earlier
and later). Some historians would say that the Gallicans were
eliminated as a party in the RCC by the holding of the first Vatican
Council in 1870, while others would hold that the Gallicans won by
the holding of the Second Vatican Council in 1961(?), though not
under that name.

Since I somehow missed the post to which Kerry is replying, I may
simply be repeating old information. If so, my apologies.

 Yours,
 James Kiefer
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Date:         Tue, 15 Sep 1992 10:13:00 EST
From:         HENZLEEF@SNYBUFVA.BITNET
Subject:      Re: New Age in Schools

I am interested.  Elaine.
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Date:         Sun, 13 Sep 1992 08:55:00 CDT
From:         BKCOBB@LIFE.UAMS.EDU
Subject:      Tradition

>Most protestants I know of, feel pretty strongly about tradition too when
>they get their tradition stepped on.  I have been to Assembly of God churches
>(ever heard of them?) where you could cut the tradition with a knife.  I
>have been to house churches (non-denom./non-protestant) where you didn't
>mess with the traditions (outside of the Biblical record) they have con-
>cerning the way and times the bread is broken and the wine distributed.

Having attended an Assemblies of God church for the first 22 years of my
life, I must have missed the tradition one could cut with a knife somewhere
along the way.  What are you talking about?  Perhaps I'm wrong but I think
you are using tradition in a sense different from the other posts I've seen
on this topic.

Brian
From: spk@uk.ac.aber (Stephen Kingston)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: Math and `absolute' answers
Date: 9 Sep 92 14:35:17 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Dept., University of Wales at Aberystwyth.

kilroy@gboro.glassboro.edu (Dr Nancy's Sweetie) wrote:
> 
> [ Note: the name `Godel' in what follows is supposed to have an umlaut over
>   the `o'.  Since ASCII doesn't include such a character, you'll have to use
>   your imagination. ]

Thinking back to my High School German classes, I believe normal practice 
in such cases as this is to write the vowel followed by an 'e', thus 'Goedel' 
would be the correct spelling.

I'm sure Wolfgang will reply if I am incorrect.

All the best,
  Stephen.
-- 
Gweleis i rac neb nym gweles pop annwyl. ef diwyl yneges. Gweleis i pasc.
(I saw the one above all men,  he saw me;  he, the beloved of his people,
who fulfills his mission. I saw Easter.) "Yspeil Taliesin" ---Taliesin---
spk@uk.ac.aber --- spk%uk.ac.aber@nsfnet-relay.ac.uk --- Stephen Kingston
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Date:         Sun, 13 Sep 1992 08:39:05 -0700
From:         "Steven E. Hoell" <seh@NEUTRON.PHYSICS.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: the underground church

Amen, Zane. And many thanks for your letter!

Steve Hoell
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Date:         Mon, 14 Sep 1992 23:34:55 CDT
From:         Anthony Glen Jeffries <jeffries@IASTATE.EDU>
Subject:      Re: New Age in Schools
              14 Sep 92 19:52:27 -0500. <9209150058.AA06450@po-1.iastate.edu>

I would be interested in these postings, too, since I don't think I
can get the Ankerberg show in this area.

Anthony Glen Jeffries
Iowa State University
Ames, Iowa
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Date:         Thu, 10 Sep 1992 10:23:00 EST
From:         "Lauren H. Arango" <LHARANGO@OWUCOMCN.BITNET>
Subject:      Husband of not more than one wife

Louie Crew writes,

>Lauren, according to the Prayer Book, you should abstain from communion
>until you are again in love and charity with your neighbor Bishop Spong.
>It is one thing to disagree with him, but quite another to hold him up to
>crude ridicule on terms that he has done nothing whatsoever to deserve.

If you will read my message again, you will see that I was not the one who
made the joke.  I simply repeated it in my message as an example of what
Spong's reputation has done to him.  I don't see how I "held him up to
crude ridicule", but I apologize if I offended you.

>Three weeks ago I went to the
>wedding of a much respected and venerable bishop who was marrying for the
>third time..... with both other wives still alive and well.

Was he married in the Episcopal Church?  Our bishop of Southern Ohio flatly
refuses to give permission to *anyone* to marry in the Episcopal Church who
has been married twice before.  He generally grants permission to those who
have been married once before (everyone is human, and anyone can make a
mistake once), but if you've been married twice or more, you'll have to
get married somewhere else.

In addition, just yesterday our rector said, "You won't find an Episcopal
bishop who has been married more than once."  According to her, the Episcopal
Church holds with the statement in 1 Timothy about bishops being "the
husband of not more than one wife".

Apparently in the case of the bishop you cite, this is not so.  I suspect
that this would greatly surprise her.

>If you did not know that about Bishop Spong's extremely conservative personal
>life style, you might ask yourself why you did not.

Quite frankly, I have no desire to find out more about him.  No offense,
but I have other things to spend my time on.

>Might it be that people who cannot debate him with his own respect and
>knowledge of the Lord of Scriptures find it necessary to stoop to cheap
>personal attacks like yours?

Chill out, Louie.  As I said before, I did not attack him.  I did not make
the joke.  I simply repeated it as an example of how others view him.

>You close with 'God's Peace' but clearly take God's name in vain here.
>God's Peace is not party to brutal and degrading mockery.

I suppose that God will be the one to decide whether or not I have taken
His name in vain.  As I said before, Louie, chill out.

                                        God's peace,
                                        Lauren
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Fri, 11 Sep 1992 16:20:11 CDT
From:         CCCHRIS@MIZZOU1.BITNET
Subject:      Dark Dreams

I woke up quite shaken at around 5:00 this morning after having a nightmare
about my son, Scott.  Scott just had his 13th birthday, which is (in my mind)
a little young for me to worry about such things...but I dreamed Scott died
of aids.  Maybe it was so upsetting because it was so vivid.  The dream ended
with me slowly rocking him in my arms, watching him slipping away from me.
I spoke of regrets.  Regrets that I didn't read to him more often when he was
younger.  Regrets that I was always too busy with housework or cooking dinner
or (whatever) to talk with him more.  Too busy to learn to play Nintendo with
him, one of his fondest wishes.
Knowing the end was coming soon, I reassured him of the love of Jesus, of the
promise of Heaven, and about how he would be getting a new body.  I told him
he would live in a place without death or pain or heartache, and he would be
in the presence of God.  I held him so close, rocking him like a baby, until
he was gone.  Suddenly I bolted upright in my bed, crying, and then I realized
it was only a dream.  I hurried to Scott's room and snuggled up with him, told
him about my dream, and we had a long, heart to heart talk.  I felt delighted
to have a reprieve (even if it _was_ only a dream).  And I have such a burden
now for the multitudes of people who are experiencing this nightmare, people
who don't get to wake up from it.  My heart goes out to those who are losing,
or have lost loved ones to this horrible disease.  I know this is personal
(since when did that ever stop me when posting to Christia?!) but I felt
compelled to share it.
Now I'm going to log off, go home and spend some "quality time" with Scotty.
And when my birthday rolls around, I think I'm going to ask for a Super-
Nintendo unit... :-)

Peace to all, and a good weekend,

Chris Reed
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Date:         Mon, 7 Sep 1992 13:32:51 -0500
From:         Jason Briggs Cormier <CORJB@RHODES.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: On the Worth of Apostates' Arguments (was sponges)

Darren:

Points well made.

I am not sure if this would go along with what you said,
but in light of this:

>Several people have responded saying that we shouldn't listen to anyone who is
>apostate, and that if he rejects the Bible's teachings then he isn't an
>authority on what it says.

Isn' this similar to refuse to accept any of Peter's teachings
because he was wrong according to Paul with regards to Gentiles?

How many Christians would deny all of Peter's teachings just
because he made one mistake?

This isn't what the Bible teachs regarding receiving another's
teachings anyway.  Aren't we supposed to 1) compare it against
the scripture and 2) against the Holy Spirit Himself?

Jason
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Date:         Fri, 11 Sep 1992 16:55:27 -0700
From:         John Baskette <jfb@MACSCH.COM>
Subject:      Re: Hal Camping prediction of Return of Christ

Thank you for your kind responses.  In Acts 1:6-7 the disciples ask Jesus:

   "Will Thou at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?"

to which Jesus answers:

   "It is not for you to know the times or the seasons which the Father
    hath put in his own power..."

I want to let you know that I am not buying into what Harold Camping says
in any way.  I listened to him on the radio last night for a short while.
Some of what he said:

* The creation occurred in 11,013 B.C.
* 1988 was the 13,000th birthday of the world.
* The flood occurred in 4990 B.C.
* The pre-flood earth lasted 6023 years.
* The world was planned to last 7000 years after the flood.
* This means that the world was to end in 2011 A.D.
* The final tribulation began 23 years before 2011 A.D. in 1988.
* God cuts the final tributation short for the elects sake! (Matt 24:22)
  from 23 years to 2300 days.
* This is 17 years short of 7000 years.  17 symbolizes heaven.  The number of
  fish caught in John 21 is 153 or 9 X 17.  9 is 3 x 3.  Three symbolizes the
  purposes of God.  The number 153 represents the elect of God.
* The tribulation is to last 2300 days (the number 23 symbolizes judgement).
* The final tribulation is a period of testing for the church.
* The world and tribulation will end when the last of God's elect is saved.
* The final tribulation and world will end 6+ years after 1988.
* Or in September of 1994.
* His 1988 date is not connected with Israel.  A period of testing from
  2007 B.C. and lasting until 1994 (or exactly 4000 years) has been taking
  place between Isreal and the Arabs.  2007 B.C. is the year when Jacob and
  Esau were born.  Esau and Ishmael were the progenitors of the Arabs.
  Israel has failed the testings of God.  40 or 400 or 4000 numbers
  are symbolic of testing.

This is all I know of what he said.  He has a book he is promoting, but I
have no plans on sending him any money for it.  The number games are
entertaining.  I would get a good laugh out of this stuff except for one
reason.  There are folks out there who really believe this stuff.
One listener called in asking what she should say to her children in order
to get them to study.  Why should they study if everything is going be
over in two years?

Harold Camping is an amillenial five point Calvinist.  In my experience
this kind of date setting is much more common amoung dispensationalists.
That is why it is surprising to me.  He runs a network of radio stations out
of Oakland, California which is why I thought he might be having an impact
out there.

I apologize is this was not news worthy to post.  Thanks for your patience.
John
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Date:         Wed, 9 Sep 1992 14:05:35 CDT
From:         Yvette Traylor <YST1@DCCCDBIT.BITNET>
Subject:      The end..!

I don't know who are sending these postings, but I sure do like them.


   Yvette Traylor     "We are His people and the sheep of his pasture."
   Dallas County Community College District             Psalm 100:3
   Computer Programmer/Analyst  in  Dallas - Texas
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
From: nabil@cae.wisc.edu (Nabil Ayoub)
Subject: Re: Tradition (was Re: Second parousia in the past?)
Organization: U of Wisconsin-Madison College of Engineering
Date: 10 Sep 92 13:58:30 CDT

In article <BuCBqz.B6x@world.std.com> timk@world.std.com (Tim King) writes:
>nabil@cae.wisc.edu (Nabil Ayoub) writes:
>
>>   John 21:25   And there are also many other things that Jesus did, which if
>>   they were written one by one, I suppose that even the world itself could
>>   not contain the books that would be written. Amen.
>
>>So John The Evangelist, the author of this Gospel *clearly* states that
>>there is *more* than what he has written in this gospel. So your "sola
>>scriptura" is *in* contradiction with the Scripture itself!
>
>Ahem...  This point has been answered quite nicely in James Keifer's essay
>on the subject of Sola Scriptura.  It is in the Christia archives and can
>be retrieved by sending the following command to the listserv:
>
>        GET SOLA SCRIPT
>

I retrieved this article and read it. It did not impress me a whole lot (for
example, the author said that St. Athanasius was Greek! It is well known that
he is a Copt or an Egyptian. I've read some articles that claim that he was
black! I am not sure about this but certainly he was not Greek, but he was
fluent in speaking Greek). I could not find any solid argument that denies
that "Sola Scripture" is in clear contradiction with John 21:25 or denies
the authenticity of Tradition.

Here is another verse that supports the authenticity of Tradition :

   Acts 20:35    "I have shown you in every way, by laboring like this, that
   you must support the weak. And remember the words of the Lord Jesus, that
                              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
   He said, 'It is more blessed to give than to receive.' "
   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

To put things in context, St. Paul is speaking to the elders of the church
of Ephesus. The underlined part of the verse is quoted by St. Paul. To the
amazement of the anti-Tration folks, this proves that it is authentic since
this quote cannot be found anywhere in any of the four gospels. Morover, St.
Paul did not hear it firsthand, but it was probably passed to him by another
disciple. This is Tradition, pure, plain and simple! Scripture is an essential
part of Tradition, but it is not the whole thing. So in terms of set theory,
Scripture is a subset of Tradition.

Irene pasi,

Nabil

PS. I'm quoting from NKJV.
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.spssx-l
Date:         Mon, 14 Sep 1992 12:36:22 EDT
Reply-To:     Greg Nelson <GNELSON@UGA.BITNET>
From:         Greg Nelson <GNELSON@UGA.BITNET>
Subject:      QFD Research
Comments: To: sas-l@UGA.BITNET, spssx-l@UGA.BITNET, stat-l@mcgill1.BITNET

Has anyone heard of a method of packaging design research which uses
something called a QFD chart?

Thanks in advance..

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
   Greg Nelson                       Bitnet:  gnelson@uga
   UCNS - Client Services             Phone:  (706) 542-5359
   The Unviersity of Georgia       Internet:  gnelson@uga.cc.uga.edu

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: KADYSZEWSKI@FORDMULC.BITNET (PETER KADYSZEWSKI, (212) 254-4811)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.spssx-l
Subject: PLEASE ADD ME TO LISTSERV
Date: 6 Sep 92 16:53:00 GMT
Reply-To: "PETER KADYSZEWSKI, (212) 254-4811" <KADYSZEWSKI@FORDMULC.BITNET>
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Organization: University of Maine System
Date: Tuesday, 8 Sep 1992 07:53:21 EDT
From: Phil Pratt <PRATT@MAINE.MAINE.EDU>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.spssx-l
Subject: SPSS-Tables


I'm wondering if anyone who reads this group has
experience with the SPSS add-on TABLES.  A number
of folks like me at MAINE who do a lot of survey
research (involving lots of nominal and ordinal
scale variables) have found the REPORT and
CROSSTABS procedures in the base SPSS package
very limited in the construction of tables
involving more than two or three variables of
that type of data.

As a result, we're thinking about trying to
persuade those with the purse strings to
purchase the TABLES add-on.

Obviously, tt would be helpful to us to find out
others' experience with TABLES (good and
disappointing) as we press on.  Any information
would be helpful.  Thanks
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