HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: miller@hmsp04.wg3.waii.com (Griff Miller X7114)
Newsgroups: tx.politics
Subject: School prayer (was: Bush vetoes...)
Date: 6 Nov 92 20:06:47 GMT
Distribution: tx
Organization: Western Geo. - Div of Western Atlas Intn'l Inc., Houston, TX

In article <1992Nov05.233921.31258@watson.ibm.com> johniac@austin.ibm.com (John Iacoletti/100000) writes:
>John F. Haugh II (jfh@rpp386.lonestar.org) wrote:
>: 	"Let Us Pray!", by Eugene H. Methvin, Reader's Digest,
>: 		November 1992
>:       [survey deleted]
>: 
>: 	"In 1962, however, the [ Supreme ] Court decided that prayer in
>: 	 classrooms is unconstitutional.
>
>Thankfully, majority opinion doesn't determine constitutionality.  If it did 
>we would no longer HAVE a Constitution.

No, it doesn't determine constitutionality. Neither does it follow that being
a minority means that you should automatically get your way.

Now, in 1962 did the SC decide that mandatory prayer (that is,
where everyone is "expected" to participate") is unconstitutional or that
prayer, period, is unconstitutional?

IF (MANDATORY) THEN
  Fine. No one should be forced to participate in prayer. It wouldn't mean
  anything, anyway, and would probably do more harm than good.
ELSE IF (PERIOD) THEN
  This is ridiculous. I can understand saying, "majority, it's wrong for you
  to make our children do this thing that we don't want them to do" but
  I can't understand "majority, it's wrong for even your children to do this
  thing that we don't want them to do."

  Unless, of course, the "thing" was somehow harmful (and watching, even
  hearing, a peer pray is NOT harmful).
ENDIF

>: 	 A Denver teacher was ordered to cease reading his Bible silently
>: 	 during his class reading period and to remove the book from his
>: 	 desk.
>
>Like it or not, an employer can dictate what his employee does while at work.

Well, sure. But if someone CAN read non-work material at all, what difference
does it make what it is?

You are welcome to wear boxer shorts under your pants while at work, but they
may not be light blue.
--
Griff Miller - miller@monarch.wg3.waii.com
My opinions are mine, not Western's.
"The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge, but 
fools despise wisdom and discipline."   - Proverbs 1:7
From: mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539)
Newsgroups: tx.politics
Subject: Re: Football Failures at Bowie Force end of Season
Date: 11 Nov 92 04:24:53 GMT
Distribution: tx
Organization: Texas Instruments Inc

In <21842@rpp386.lonestar.org> jfh@rpp386.lonestar.org (John F. Haugh II) writes:

>In article <1992Nov7.125956.21876@mksol.dseg.ti.com> mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539) writes:
>>And just what do you want to do when they start burglerizing John
>>Haugh's house?  Oh, that's right -- he didn't pay for police services,
>>so we won't do anything.  :-)

>Call the county medical examiner and tell them to take away the
>dead body?  Iacoletti will tell you that I own guns and am able
>to use them.  If you broke into my house I wouldn't think twice
>before shooting you.  If you broke into my neighbors house and
>I knew you weren't welcome, again, I wouldn't think twice before
>shooting you.

Ok, so we'll just charge you for the M.E., the ambulance to remove the
body, the folks who do the paperwork, etc.

>Actually, I wish you wouldn't drag me into your childish
>arguments.  John Haugh is, after all, not a party to the
>discussion (even if he is the Neighborhood Watch block captain
>for his end of the street ...)

Ah, that's right.  I forgot.  You have whatever sense of humour you
might possess backed up on tape somewhere, and it's been misplaced.
Get a grip, John.

[And I shoot back.  I suspect some burglars might as well,
particularly in the sort of world you seem to be in favour of.] 

-- 
"Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live
 in the real world."   -- Mary Shafer, NASA Ames Dryden
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred.McCall@dseg.ti.com - I don't speak for others and they don't speak for me.
Newsgroups: tx.politics
From: thomasr@cpqhou.compaq.com (Thomas Rush)
Subject: Re: Clinton has won...watch your pocket!
Reply-To: thomasr@cpqhou.UUCP (Thomas Rush)
Organization: Compaq Computer Corporation
Distribution: tx
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 92 00:08:11 GMT

In article <1992Nov12.014407.4066@europa.lonestar.org> tom@europa.lonestar.org (Tom Kimball) writes:
>In article <1992Nov10.172820.24471@cpqhou.compaq.com> thomasr@cpqhou.compaq.com (Thomas Rush) writes:
>>
>>Here's my official projection of a $1 Trillion
>>deficit in Clinton's forth budget.
>
>And here's my official projection that the Sun will explode that same year.
>
>I guess that official projections don't count for much on Usenet.

Of course they don't.  But you can either look back at this post in
four years and laugh at me, or you can think that maybe the 1996
election is where you ought to start voting Libertarian.


thomas rush			compaq computer corporation	
thomasr@cpqhou.compaq.com	their employee, not their opinions.
I believe all human interactions should be based on mutual consent.
From: jfh@rpp386.lonestar.org (John F. Haugh II)
Newsgroups: tx.politics
Subject: Re: Bush Vetoes Stupid Education Reform Bill
Date: 5 Nov 92 05:34:47 GMT
Reply-To: jfh@rpp386.cactus.org (John F. Haugh II)
Distribution: tx
Organization: Los Tejanos SCUBA Club and Beer Joint, Austin, Tejas

In article <1607@airgun.wg.waii.com> miller@hmsp04.wg3.waii.com (Griff Miller X7114) writes:
>In article <1992Nov3.190257.2617@mksol.dseg.ti.com> mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539) writes:
>>WHAT rules?  There are schools that have rules about 'thought crimes',
>>now? 
>
>Whoa! That's not the tack I was taking. I was merely taking issue with the
>idea that breaking a difficult-to-enforce rule is okay, and that a
>difficult-to-enforce rule is inconsequential.

The answer to Fred's question is "Yes" and the current Reader's Digest
has examples.

Again, students in my high school were attacked by the faculty for
nothing more than pointing their face in a downward direction while
still awake because that behavior was also known as "prayer."

It is frightening to think that students and faculty in Moscow
schools now have MORE religious freedom than students and faculty
in Austin schools.
-- 
John F. Haugh II                  [  TSAKC  ] !'s: ...!cs.utexas.edu!rpp386!jfh
Ma Bell: (512) 251-2151           [ DoF #17 ]        @'s: jfh@rpp386.cactus.org
From: mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539)
Newsgroups: tx.politics
Subject: Re: Clinton has won...watch your pocket!
Date: 11 Nov 92 14:34:12 GMT
Distribution: tx
Organization: Texas Instruments Inc

In <1992Nov09.183815.1838@cpqhou.compaq.com> thomasr@cpqhou.compaq.com (Thomas Rush) writes:

>In article <1992Nov6.223933.12755@mksol.dseg.ti.com> mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539) writes:
>>
>>After that Convention and the McCartheyite campaign George Bush ran, I
>>wouldn't vote for him in a 1-man race.


>That's not saying much; ovr 60% of the voters didn't vote for him
>in the last n-man race.  But tell me, fred, if it came down to a
>choice between George Bush and a Libertarian, in a two-man race,
>who would you vote for?

I would stock up on ammunition and vote for the Libertarian.  George
Bush has demonstrated to me that both himself and the current state of
his Party are totally bankrupt, ethically and morally speaking.

Hey, Thomas, isn't this the old Libertarian 'vote for the least evil
lizard' paradigm?  ;-)

-- 
"Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live
 in the real world."   -- Mary Shafer, NASA Ames Dryden
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred.McCall@dseg.ti.com - I don't speak for others and they don't speak for me.
From: curt@ekhadafi.austin.ibm.com (Curt Finch 903 2F021 curt@aixwiz.austin.ibm.com 512-838-2806)
Newsgroups: tx.politics
Subject: STUDENTS ON THE JOB MAKE LOWER GRADES
Date: 5 Nov 92 16:40:41 GMT
Distribution: tx
Organization: IBM AWD, Austin

This should come as no great shock. -curt


*9   BALL STATE STUDY:  STUDENTS ON THE JOB MAKE LOWER GRADES
     After-school jobs can lower students' grades, according to a
recently released study by Ball State U (CHICAGO TRIBUNE).  Jay
Thompson, a professor of educational leadership said the study
found that employed students tend to receive lower grades than
non-working classmates.
     "Students in grades 8-12 who worked received more than 75%
of the C's, D's and F's given during the 1991-92 school year,"
according to the TRIBUNE.  The study also found that 40% of all
students held jobs after school or on weekends.
     But Thompson said work can be good for students if the hours
are restricted.  The study surveyed 5,600 students in six non-
urban, central Ind. school districts (11/3).



-- 
--
curt@aixwiz.austin.ibm.com (Curt L. Finch) | AIX NFS/NIS Field Quality 
My views are unrelated to those of IBM     |        Austin, TX
 - Begin means testing of Social Security, Medicare and Farm Subsidies now. -
From: mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539)
Newsgroups: tx.politics
Subject: Re: Bush Vetoes Stupid Education Reform Bill
Date: 6 Nov 92 13:08:17 GMT
Distribution: tx
Organization: Texas Instruments Inc

In <1608@airgun.wg.waii.com> miller@hmsp04.wg3.waii.com (Griff Miller X7114) writes:

>In article <1992Nov3.190407.2755@mksol.dseg.ti.com> mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539) writes:
>>
>>Proselytizing is part of Christianity.  Some are just more obnoxious
>>about it than others.

>And most are not obnoxious at all. Again I say, it's the loud ones you hear
>about, like the extremists in any group. If a person isn't thumping his
>Bible and telling you that you're going to burn in Hell, do you assume that
>he's not a Christian?  :-)

Not necessarily, but when he starts wanting to teach religiou instead
of knowledge in the schools, I can place a pretty strong bet that he
IS. 

-- 
"Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live
 in the real world."   -- Mary Shafer, NASA Ames Dryden
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred.McCall@dseg.ti.com - I don't speak for others and they don't speak for me.
Newsgroups: tx.politics
From: johniac@austin.ibm.com (John Iacoletti/100000)
Subject: Re: Bush Vetoes Stupid Education Reform Bill
Date: Thu, 05 Nov 92 23:39:21 GMT
Distribution: tx
Organization: IBM T. J. Watson Research
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]

John F. Haugh II (jfh@rpp386.lonestar.org) wrote:
: 	"Let Us Pray!", by Eugene H. Methvin, Reader's Digest,
: 		November 1992
:       [survey deleted]
: 
: 	"In 1962, however, the [ Supreme ] Court decided that prayer in
: 	 classrooms is unconstitutional.

Thankfully, majority opinion doesn't determine constitutionality.  If it did 
we would no longer HAVE a Constitution.

: 	 A Denver teacher was ordered to cease reading his Bible silently
: 	 during his class reading period and to remove the book from his
: 	 desk.

Like it or not, an employer can dictate what his employee does while at work.

--
John Iacoletti       IBM AWS Austin       Internet: johniac@austin.ibm.com
        My opinions do not reflect the views of the IBM Corporation
"When you're following an angel, does it mean you have to throw your body off a 
 building?" -- TMBG
From: mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539)
Newsgroups: tx.politics
Subject: Re: Clinton has won...watch your pocket!
Date: 6 Nov 92 22:39:33 GMT
Distribution: tx
Organization: Texas Instruments Inc

In <aLLTTB1w165w@keys.lonestar.org> cwinemil@keys.lonestar.org (Chris Winemiller) writes:

>mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539) writes:

>> In <mPVPTB1w165w@keys.lonestar.org> cwinemil@keys.lonestar.org
>> (Chris Winemiller) writes:
>> 
>> >Well, Clinton has won.  Time to move more of my salary into the 401k;
>> >hopefully, after Clinton gets in and raises my taxes (as he surely
>> >will), I'll end up paying no more than I currently do.
>> 
>> Once again, I'm curious.  Do you make over $200k?  If not, why are you
>> so sure of what you claim is 'going to surely happen'?

>Because I believe the figures others have stated in which he will be
>taxing incomes down to the ~$40,000 level in order to fund his spending
>frenzy.

In other words, you believe what people have made up that he will do
rather than what his plan is.  It may be reasonable to distrust
politicians, but I don't think it's reasonable to believe every lie a
political opponent puts together.

>I'll be curious to see if former Carter administration personnel pop
>up in Clinton's administration.  (Such was implied on one of the news
>shows last night.)  If so, God help us.

I wouldn't doubt that there will be a few, but I wouldn't count on
large hordes of them.

>> [You talk like George Bush never raised your taxes.]

>Of course he did, and I was furious.  I would have voted against him
>this time, but the alternatives were even worse.

After that Convention and the McCartheyite campaign George Bush ran, I
wouldn't vote for him in a 1-man race.

-- 
"Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live
 in the real world."   -- Mary Shafer, NASA Ames Dryden
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred.McCall@dseg.ti.com - I don't speak for others and they don't speak for me.
Newsgroups: tx.politics
From: rocky@NeoSoft.com (Joe Mullally)
Subject: Re: Protectionism and Japan
Organization: NeoSoft Communications Services -- (713) 684-5900
Distribution: usa,tx
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 01:02:49 GMT

In article <BxLzws.8yo@NeoSoft.com> hari@NeoSoft.com (Doug Andersen) writes:
>In article <BxKvp9.GBs@NeoSoft.com>, rocky@NeoSoft.com (Joe Mullally) writes:
>> 	Agreed. I don't see it as gov't interference any more than 
>> I would our army defending our shores from invaders as interference.
>> Truly. I certainly want T.I. to be able to make a fair profit. BTW, 
>> I sell Microlasers. They are very reasonably priced, well built,
>> and compatible. Good stuff. Now, if one should blow up on a customer,
>> and kill him/her, would that be one that you built? You did say you
>> build the stuff that kills people, no? (Okay, so I don't even deserve a
>> smiley).
> 
>That's a pretty strange view of trade ("defending our shores from
>invaders").
	
	You're certainly befuddled when you hear of a company
capturing a market, then. "What might _that_ mean?", you must ask
yourself. "Strange", indeed. Two labels so far- those upset
by the House Bank are stupid. Those who see business as war have
"strange" ideas. Better remember to use IMHO once in a while,
if your recognize your opinions to be your own, and not necessarily
the only possible ones to hold. IMHO. (-: Am I flame-baiting again,
or should I, to be true to myself, continue to point out what
parts of others' posts bother me? Do you find it inconsistent for
me to get upset with labels? 

>Again, who wins and who loses when the government blocks
>imports.

	Our children. You. Me. Kids in inner cities. Not all
imports. Just those that completely steal markets, and are 
reinforced w/ gov't support. They steal in the short run. They
dominate, in the long. They do it by cheating. The effort is
nationally, politically motivated. Yes. It's war. Business is
war, Doug. Try it some time- get out there and sell something.
Try to borrow some money. Try to keep your doors open. Fight
the war. (Okay, so I'm getting way too carried away- sorry).

  The domestic industry wins, the consumers (whether they are
>other companies or individual people) in the U.S. lose.

	The consumers fare best when employed.
> 
>Dumping is simply a way for US companies to get the government to do their
>work for them.

	Bullhonkey! The playing field is not level.


-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Joe Mullally (rocky@sugar.neosoft.com) PH:713-681-2495
"We need stronger death penalties..." George Bush, debate #2
Newsgroups: tx.politics
From: johniac@johniac.austin.ibm.com (John Iacoletti/100000)
Subject: Re: Fix this damn country
Date: Wed, 04 Nov 92 23:50:10 GMT
Distribution: tx
Organization: IBM Advanced Workstation Division, Austin, TX

In article <21812@rpp386.lonestar.org> jfh@rpp386.cactus.org (John F. Haugh II) writes:
>In article <1992Nov02.191541.3199@NeoSoft.com> hari@NeoSoft.com (Doug Andersen) writes:
>>                                                                Bush
>>didn't veto it, he didn't even pocket veto it, he SIGNED the budget!
>
>Bush tried that in 1990.  As you'll recall, there was a stretch when
>the "optional" parts of government all closed down while Bush and Congress
>worked out at "The Budget Summit".

If Bush had had the balls to pull a "Pete Wilson", he probably would have been
reelected.

-- 
John Iacoletti       IBM AWS Austin       Internet: johniac@austin.ibm.com
        My opinions do not reflect the views of the IBM Corporation
"When you're following an angel, does it mean you have to throw your body off a 
 building?" -- TMBG
Newsgroups: tx.politics
From: hari@NeoSoft.com (Doug Andersen)
Subject: Re: Term Limits
Organization: NeoSoft Communications Services -- (713) 684-5900
Distribution: tx
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 16:30:05 GMT

In article <1992Nov9.195151.25000@awdprime.austin.ibm.com>, curt@ekhadafi.austin.ibm.com (Curt Finch 903 2F021 curt@aixwiz.aust
> I disagree.  Incumbents are like royalty now.  They win not because
> they're doing a good job, but because of name recognition and all the
> free mailings they get at taxpayer expense.
 
Let me get this straight.  People hate incumbents and want to throw them
out of office.  Because of name recognition and franking, the
incumbents are well known (i.e., most people can figure out which of the
two/three candidates is the incumbent).  If they hate incuments and they
can easily recognize the incumbent, we should have had dozens more
incumbents thrown out of office.
 
> The quickest easiest way to fix all this is to pass term limits.
 
I agree with that.  But the easiest way isn't necessarily the best way.
-- 
Doug Andersen
hari@Sugar.NeoSoft.com
Newsgroups: tx.politics
From: rocky@NeoSoft.com (Joe Mullally)
Subject: Re: Bush Vetoes Stupid Education Reform Bill
Organization: NeoSoft Communications Services -- (713) 684-5900
Distribution: tx
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 23:36:23 GMT

In article <1992Nov09.184038.31392@watson.ibm.com> johniac@austin.ibm.com (John Iacoletti/100000) writes:
>Joe Mullally (rocky@NeoSoft.com) wrote:
>: I do have a qualm with your claim that that an atheist
>: doesn't deny the existence of the Christian God, though. It would seem
>: he/she has but three choices: to believe, to deny, or to not know.
>
>Why do you never hear of Santa Claus agnostics or Easter Bunny agnostics, or
>pink and purple polka dotted unicorn agnostics?

	I think because we're all (adults) non-believers.

>Atheists tend to put the Christian god in the same bucket as the thousands of
>other gods and Santa Claus and everything else which has no evidence.  You
>are correct in pointing out that people who call themselves atheists may take
>the "Christian God does not exist" position.  I think that's a position of
>faith, and I would challenge them to justify it.

	As well for non-Santa-believers?

>  The problem with all
>descriptive labels is that you have to be careful not to assume too much into
>them.

	I just think a person should admit him/herself to be atheist
if he/she doesn't believe in any gods, and agnostic if he/she doesn't
see evidence of gods, but reserves judgement. I think, in this sort
of case, the labels should be self-applied, and so done by choosing
one of these (or, of course, a belief in god[s]). If one doesn't
choose, I suppose agnostic would be the label stuck on him/her by
others.

>: 	And, I do think atheists have faith that their religious
>: convictions are correct, or they'd be agnostics. Break down the word
>: atheist. Perhaps I should recant allowing atheists self-definition.
>
>A-theism:  without theism

	Theism: belief in the existance of God or gods.

	(Hey, think we can put the rest of the group to sleep with
this thread?) (-:

-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Joe Mullally (rocky@sugar.neosoft.com) PH:713-681-2495
"We need stronger death penalties..." George Bush, debate #2
From: mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539)
Newsgroups: tx.politics
Subject: Re: Football Failures at Bowie Force end of Season
Date: 5 Nov 92 03:00:25 GMT
Distribution: tx
Organization: Texas Instruments Inc

In <1992Nov03.235337.19715@watson.ibm.com> johniac@johniac.austin.ibm.com (John Iacoletti/100000) writes:

>In article <1992Oct30.091317.16897@montagar.com> davidc@montagar.com (David L. Cathey) writes:
>>	Because not giving them an education DEPRIVES them of those options.
>>In this market, not having a diploma limits that that would hire you.  Failing
>>math class doesn't help you get investment sense, but how can you get any of
>>that sense unless you at least understand math?  Very few high-paying jobs
>>are available to those without high-school diplomas, and if you decided you
>>wanted one, you couldn't.

>1.  You have every right to not have a high-paying job.

>2.  If you decide later that you want a high school diploma after all, there's
>    something called a GED.

>Education isn't a window that slams shut once you turn 18.

>>	Well, if I was at a football training facility, where the purpose was
>>to train football players, and I was taking math class for fun, that might have
>>meaning.  However, we are talking about publics schools whose purpose is not to
>>train football players, but provide an education.

>But the system is rigged.  The only way to pursue a career in professional
>sports is through the academic high schools and colleges.  This needs to 
>change.

Hey, talk to the pro teams, then.  Don't try and trash the schools (or
keep them trashed) in order to provide farm clubs for the pros.
That's not why we have schools.

What about walk-on try-outs?  They do this.  All the kid has to be is
good enough to make the team.  

-- 
"Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live
 in the real world."   -- Mary Shafer, NASA Ames Dryden
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred.McCall@dseg.ti.com - I don't speak for others and they don't speak for me.
Newsgroups: tx.politics
From: hari@NeoSoft.com (Doug Andersen)
Subject: Re: Protectionism and Japan
Organization: NeoSoft Communications Services -- (713) 684-5900
Distribution: usa,tx
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 21:43:17 GMT

In article <1992Nov12.142955.625@mksol.dseg.ti.com>, mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539) writes:
> Why would this come as a surprise?  Even with all that, we have fewer
> barriers to entry into our markets than most developed countries.
 
Says who?  We're not as bad as some countries, but we're pretty bad.
 
> This one was more politically motivated than anything else, wasn't it?
> I mean, given that the bulk of the sugar on the world market was
> coming from Cuba, etc., and we wanted to try and do something with
> Hawaii?  I can try to look it up in my baby library here, if someone
> doesn't know.
> 
> However, once again, let's keep some perspective here.  Even given all
> that, we still have fewer supports and barriers to entry than almost
 
I think Cuba has lost a lot of the sugar market.  That doesn't explain the
very high barriers in many areas like textiles and steel.   The US
government needs to get out of the business of protecting poorly run US
businesses at the expense of US consumers and competent companies.
-- 
Doug Andersen
hari@Sugar.NeoSoft.com