From: michael.polymenakos@factory.com (Michael Polymenakos) 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.turkish,talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet,soc.c
Subject: Mutlu Still can't count (Was: '17.5'...
Date: 12 Aug 92 21:26:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Invention Factory's BBS - New York City, NY - 212-274-1243v.32bis
Reply-To: michael.polymenakos@factory.com (Michael Polymenakos) 

ulture.greek,soc.culture.europe,soc.history

Quoting Mutlu:

HM>Is this the joke of the week? The only conclusion that can be gained
HM>here is that the Ottoman Empire was also a democratic state. Freedom

  Nonsence. The Sick Man of the East was in power all along.

HM>of culture and religion prevailed during the Ottoman Empire, allowing
HM>the many nations and races within its boundaries to remain autonomous.

  Open a dictionary: Look up 'Autonomous'. You will find that corrupt Pasas,
  blood-thirsty tax collectors and child-abductors kidnapping boys to
  serve on the Ottoman army is NOT the definition of Autonomy.

HM>The fact that the Ottoman Empire was the longest lived in recent history
HM>may be attributed to these freedoms, despite the lack of any written

  GASP! CHOKE! Are you serious? Let's cross-post this to s.c.Japan, s.c.China,
  s.c.Spain, s.c.England etc etc and see how they feel about this statement.
  At least now you have proven yourself to be ignorant on a global scale,
  not just locally to the Near East.

HM>Constitution. The first attempts to create a written Constitution occurred
HM>in 1839 and 1856.  Although the documents adopted during these two attempts
HM>remained in force only temporarily, they provided the basic elements of
HM>a Constitution.

  Phoney attempts do not a democracy make. Those were just fake give-aways,
  an attempt by the Sick Man to appease the people after the devastating
  losses in the Balkans and elsewhere. He was still very much in control.

HM>The 1876 Constitution was the first legal document to force a Parliament and
HM>the right of election to share the sovereignty of the Emperor. The Constituti
HM>of 1906 placed some additional limitations on the Emperor, while increasing
HM>the power of the Parliament and the government.

  Still the Sick Man was in total control. In my summary of Greek history,
  I took care to separate the years of weak parliamentary rule from the 80
  years of constitutional monarchy, when the elected parliament had the
  power and the king had not much more than his face on a post stamp.
  Try to do the same, and your 111 or whatever years shrink to 0.

HM>The First World War (1914-1918) brought the Ottoman Empire to an end. By the

  By the way, whose side did Turkey take during WWI? The side of the German
  and Austrian Autocracies? Or the side of the democratic nations? Duuh, I
  can't guess.

HM>occupation of Istanbul, the Parliament was dissolved and the Constitution was
HM>abolished. The members of Parliament were sent to exile to an island by the
HM>occupying forces.

  I am sure that you also applauded in 1980 when Evren did the same thing to
  contemporary Turkish democrats.

HM>During the Independence War, the "Turkish Grand National Assembly" held their
HM>first meeting on April 23, 1920 to serve as the legislative body of the new
HM>Turkish state. This assembly prepared the new legal structure of the Turkish
HM>Republic. The new Republic was proclaimed on October 29, 1923 and the new
HM>Constitution was adopted in 1924. That Constitution served as the legal

  What followed was the strict dictatorship of Kemal Attaturk. Even you
  did not find the heart to include 1924-1950 in your count of 'democracy'.

HM>backbone of today's modern Turkish Republic. In 1945, Turkey adopted a
HM>multi-party political system. The Constitution of 1924 was replaced by

  More purges of political opponents followed. It wasn't until 1955 or so
  that there was some light at the end of the tunnel.

HM>others in 1961 and 1982. All three Constitutions of the Republic have been
HM>based on the principles of parliamentary democracy, human rights, national
HM>sovereignty, division of powers, private ownership and secularization.

   Hold on a second. I recall TV images of tanks in down-town Ankara when the
   1982 constitution was voted. I recall a general who declared himself
   'president'. Do you dispute my recollections?

HM>MP> And you are talking about learning algebra in school! Now you want to
HM>MP>prove that 32+80 > 31. (hint: if b>a and c>a, ==> b+c > a ).
HM>Wow. 17.5 < 31+111.

   I told you  year-by-year where the 32+80 figure comes from. Now tell me
   where you get this 17.5 figure from (BTW I asssume you mean 18 since it
   is August already). List all Greek regimes since 1821 (You can use my list)
   and explain what your objections are to the 1828 and 1924 republics, or
   the 80 years of rule by a democratically elected parliaments.

HM>MP> I guess the battle of Hellispontos was won by Turkey, when the Turkish
HM>MP>admiral said "I have an idea. Let's let them sink our ships. That'll
HM>MP>really confuse them". Well, it worked.
HM>In your sweat dreams.

   Victory was very sweet indeed, thank you. Very real too, just like the
   iron sides of the Battleship Averof.


Michael


HM>Hasan B-) Mutlu

Question: How many Hasan Mutlus does it take to change a lightbulb?
Answer:   Not a chance. I will dissect article-by-article,
paragraph-by-paragraph, line-by-line, lie-by-lie, revision-by-revision,
written by those on this net, who plan to 'prove' that the
lightbulb is burned out.

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 . SLMR 2.1a . Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (P)anic
                             
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