From: sstover@sumax.seattleu.edu (   Kate   )
Newsgroups: rec.arts.poems
Subject: Re: Anglocentricism in rec.arts.poems Re: Urdu Knowledge. Re: Urdu Ignorance (part II)
Date: 23 Nov 92 20:42:17 GMT
Organization: Seattle University

In article <steele.722281683@chip.aem.umn.edu> steele@aem.umn.edu (Stephanie Steele) writes:
mcoffin@IASTATE.EDU (Marie Coffin) writes:

:>In article <1992Nov19.175925.14938@zip.eecs.umich.edu>,
:>bhattach@quip.eecs.umich.edu (sayan bhattacharyya) writes:
:>> 
:>> On a related note, I am disappointed to find that rec.arts.poems
:>> is so Anglocentric and so Eurocentric. Poetry of non-Western
:>> cultures, particularly those of the Third world, is rarely 
:>> discussed here. (I may be wrong, because I have time to read this
:>> group rarely, but this has been my impression so far).
:>> 
:>> Enjoy!  
:>> 
:>> -Sayan Bhattacharyya

[...]

:>	(b) You are correct that there is not much discussion on r.a.p. about
:>	    poetry of Third World cultures.  That is not because we don't like 
:>	    it, it's because we don't know anything about it.  Please feel free
:>	    to post more information, and especially more poetry, from the
:>	    Third World culture of your choice.   Of course, this has nothing
:>	    to do with Urdu, which, as we have all been told, is not a culture.
:>	    
:>It all comes down to this:  we can only talk about what we know about. 
:>If you have specialized knowledge of poetry, please share it.


:>Marie Coffin

:marie, i don't think it is sayan's or any of the other 'urduers'
:responsibility to come to us and enlighten us regarding their language,
:poetry and or culture. although i only caught the tail end of the urdu
:debate, and did not vote on the issue, i understand and respect the need
:of groups 'outside' of the dominant culture to form organizations solely
:dedicated to discussing and preserving and strengthening their own
:culture, language. arts, etc. i understand that most of the rappers
:that voted against the urdu group did so in the hopes of broadening
:the diversity of rap, but in the end it seems obvious the the 'urduers'
:needed their own 'place' to work (i don't ever recall any big debates
:when i was in school on whether or not there should be a Black Student
:Alliance or the Hillel Club or the Latin Club or MEChA- monimiento
:estudiantil chicano de aztlan.) Now that the urdu group is available
:it seems that everybody should benefit. the urduers are in a space in
:which they feel empowered to argue and discuss urdu ideas/poetry, and
:all of us lucky rappers have a great place to go now in order to learn
:from them. i mean, if we have the choice, and we want to really get
:to *know* a dish of palak paneer, do we go over to Diwana Indian
:restaraunt in Temple City, Ca (right next to the McDonald's on Las
:Tunas Blvd, across the street from the Kentucky Fried Chicken) or
:do we go to some nice little dive in Kadiri, Andhra Pradesh?

:steph..

Steph, and all:

I fail to see how this divisiveness solves two major issues which have
recurred time and time again in the GreatUrduDebate<tm>:

1.  The proponents of rapu felt that they would have been excluded from
rap, though they never posted anything for comments or interest.  They
assumed that because the discussion on rap was confined for the most part
to poets of Western and European cultures, that meant we didn't want to
hear anything else.  I get the sense that while you may not implicitly see
this, you support that notion in some sense by suggesting that they would
*not* have been able to find a decent working environment here in rap. 
This raises the question (which I won't presume to answer) of who really
is the more tolerant group of people.

2.  The readers of rap, who really were interested in seeing Urdu poetry,
saw none of it until after the group passed.  The list of names is
indicative of the readers of rapu, no doubt, in its cultural centrism;
while I don't have a problem with that on the surface what it tells me
more deeply is that we all seem to have some sort of problem communicating
on the level of poetry as art/communication/exchange-of-culture.  

Essentially, I think Marie is quite correct -- it is necessary for those
with the knowledge of the culture to enlighten us if they feel we are
ignorant.  Certainly I would trust them to be more 'correct' than I would
trust some source in the library written by some dead or near-dead white
male...if our duty according to them is to learn about their culture, they
do little to improve us and much to advance their own centrism by refusing
to include other cultures in their cultural activities.  I'm a great
advocate of active learning.

What I'm really asking, and would be delighted to hear answers from both
sides regarding, is *why* rap was from the beginning an unacceptable
option, and *who* is really the more culturally centric of the two groups
based on the outcome of the voting and debate?  I certainly don't mean to
start wars (though no doubt I'll be flamed), but all along the way
comments like Sayan's have been cheerfully delivered in the same postings
with refusals to post Urdu poetry because we just wouldn't understand it. 
Perhaps we should all, Eurocentric and Urducentric alike, give just a
little more credit to the other party.

All of this worries me quite deeply; I feel as though we're making
decisions and inventing impressions based on stereotypes which seem to
exist nowhere except in the realm of convenience for advancing one's own
opinion on an entirely different subject.



-- 
       Sheryl Stover  %  If you ask me what I have come to do in the world,
  & Hemingway & Clio  %  I who am an artist, I will reply: "I am here to
sstover@seattleu.edu  %  live aloud."                    -Emile Zola
Newsgroups: rec.arts.poems