HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: krzystek@milton.u.washington.edu (Jerzy Krzystek)
Subject: Re: What is it with the Balkans?
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 20:33:46 GMT

In article <12AUG199207590598@amarna.gsfc.nasa.gov> 
packer@amarna.gsfc.nasa.gov (Charles Packer) writes:

>In article <...>, cash@convex.com (Peter Cash) writes...
>>In either case, it's hardly surprising. Remember, Eastern Europe and the
>>Balkans have a long tradition of complex inter-ethnic hate and
>>warfare--including virulent anti-semitism. Add to that the grievances
>
>
>Has this area contributed anything to civilization except trouble?

Both of you, instead of writing things that ask for flame (deliberately?)
why not go to a library and substantiate your claims? This would
be a true contribution to this group.

Some hints: could Mr. Cash list the mass expulsions of Jews from Western
Europe which led to their settlement in Eastern Europe? 

Could Mr. Packer e.g. give a brief summary of the ancient Bulgarian Empire
history? 
 
Regards, and no flame

J. Krzystek (not from Balkans, BTW)
From: reiher@ficus.cs.ucla.edu (Peter Reiher)
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Re: E.W. - Anastasia did survive!
Date: 12 Aug 92 20:23:32 GMT
Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department

In article <ewillims.713632772@unix1.tcd.ie> ewillims@unix1.tcd.ie (Emma Williams) writes:
>In <1992Aug11.200113.16489@porthos.cc.bellcore.com> sad@dasher.uucp (22430s-downie) writes:
>
>>Emma:  Could you keep me posted on anything you hear about the
>>Romanov family.  I read everything I can .  

>>There is another book called "The Last Tsar".  I forgot who wrote it,
>>but the author was on the TODAY show.  He said it was possible that
>>Alexi was still alive.    

A recent book by a Soviet author who, for the first time, had access to
materials hidden away in Russian archives, including Nicholas II's
personal diaries and documents relating to the execution, is supposed to 
pretty much nail the lid shut on the possibility of any of the Tsar's 
children survived.  I got this information only from a review of the book, 
so I don't want to be too categorical about it.

--
		Peter Reiher
		reiher@wells.cs.ucla.edu
From: c34657b@saha.hut.fi (Tuomas Viljanen)
Subject: Re: Histyory questions:
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 19:05:14 GMT

In article <77778@ut-emx.uucp> joe@astro.as.utexas.edu (Joe Wang) writes:
>In article <1992Aug13.143722.25631@cs.mun.ca> brian@garfield.cs.mun.ca (Brian Paquet) writes:
>>I also remember reading about the chinese traveling to Parthia
>>[they stoped them from getting to rome...
>>again this is a while ago...
>
>One of the interesting what if's of history.  The Parthians tried very
>hard (and very successfully) to keep the Han Chinese and Romans from
>ever meeting each other.  First of all, they wanted to keep their
>dominance of the silk trade, and second, they were terrified of being
>torn apart by a Roman/Chinese alliance.
>
>I wonder what would have happen had the Romans and the Chinese met?
>
An interesting question. In John Greer's book "Armies and Enemies of the Anc-
ient China" (WRG 1975) tells about Pan Ch'ao's (Ban Chao in Pinyin, which form
should be used) planned invasion in Rome 97 AD. 

"In 97 AD Ban Chao wanted to show the world that he is invincible.

Ansi (the Arsacid Parthian Empire was defeated. Now Han China stood, the
greatest land-owning empire only second to Rome.

Ban Chao ordered his second-in-command, Gan Ying, to set forth across newly
conquered Ansi, to Da Tsin, the Chinese name for Roman Empire.

As Ban Chao only allocated a portion of the army to subdue the "additional
kingdom" it is obvious that to call this a "planned invasion" is stretching
things a bit.

Gan Ying advanced across thee middle-eastern expansses towards Antiocheia 
(Antioch), which he thought to be the capital of Roman empire. Gan Ying
was anxious to know about his new enemy, so the Parthians began to tell him
about the might and expanse of the Roman empire. Upon gaining this new
intelligence, Gan Ying decided that his force was not sufficient for the task,
so he turned back and rejoined Ban Chao.

In 116 Trajan's advances into Parthia to Cthesiphon would be within one day's
march of Han Chinese border garrisons.

As a side note, 97 AD was the first year of Trajan's reign. It is quite inter-
esting to speculate of the consequences had Gan Ying pursued his objectives
and attacked Roman Antioch."

The question is: Would long thrusting spears, crossbows and chariots have
been match against the pila of the Legiones ? Legionarii were more than a
match against pike phalanges, chariots were relatively antiquated at the time
and the Romans themselves did know the crossbow - arcubalista and the counter-
measures against it. And though Roman horsemanship is often without reason
denigrated, the Equites were as match as any cavalry against the Han cavalry.
Trajan had also catafractarii to deal with the heavies, too. 



  ++ Tuomas Viljanen                     ++ For a battle like Crecy, you do  ++
  ++ Lahderanta 20 A 19                  ++ not need a military genius like  ++
  ++ SF-02720 Espoo 72 FINLAND           ++ Edward III. All you need is an   ++
  ++ 358-0-592175 or c34657b@saha.hut.fi ++ idiot like the Duke of Alencon.  ++
Newsgroups: soc.history
From: brian@garfield.cs.mun.ca (Brian Paquet)
Subject: Re: Histyory questions:
Organization: CS Dept., Memorial University of Newfoundland
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 14:37:22 GMT

Some believe that romans traveled to the Han empire
during the later han/roman empire days about 150-200
[one trip I believe, ZI don't know how firm this
is..]
I also remember reading about the chinese traveling to Parthia
[they stoped them from getting to rome...
again this is a while ago...
From: caina@merrimack.edu
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: re:Revolutionary War
Date: 13 Aug 92 13:39:41 GMT
Organization: Merrimack College, No. Andover, MA, USA

   Oops, I'll try again later.
From: de@moscom.UUCP (David Esan)
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Re: Serbian co-operation with Nazis
Date: 13 Aug 92 12:20:16 GMT
Reply-To: de@moscom.UUCP (David Esan)
Organization: Moscom Corp., Pittsford, NY

In article <85926@netnews.upenn.edu> kkniaz@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Krzysztof W. Kniaz) writes:
>In article <1992Aug11.214407.10900@news.eng.convex.com> cash@convex.com (Peter Cash) writes:
>>In article <1992Aug11.161350.14635@husc3.harvard.edu> rocher@husc8.harvard.edu (Jean-Marc Rocher) writes:
>>In either case, it's hardly surprising. Remember, Eastern Europe and the
>>Balkans have a long tradition of complex inter-ethnic hate and
>>warfare--including virulent anti-semitism. 
>This statement is partially true i.e whole Europe has a long tradition
>of violent anti-semitism. Actually Jews-hartred started in West-European
>countries such as Spain, France and The Holly Roman Empire of the German Nation
>in medieval period. Ascribing racial and ethnic tensions ONLY to Eastern
>Europe is simply a manipulation or misrepresentation.

The recent history of Eastern Europe, say the last 300 years, has included
virulent anti-semitism.

This is not to say that it did not happen in Western Europe.  Saturday, August
9, 1992 marked the 500th anniversary of the expulsion of the Jews from Spain
(on the Jewish calendar), the 499th anniversary of the expulsion from Portugal
(which was IMHO an even larger catastrophe), the 700th+ anniversary of the
expulsion from England.

Certainly, Casimir the Great of Poland welcomed German Jews moving into his
territory to escape the persecutions of Germany.  And certainly the Jews did
prosper in Poland and Lithuania.

BUT - there was/is virulent anti-semitism in Eastern Europe.  Pogroms 
occurred with regularity.  The Russian government supported plans to 
eliminate the Jews, and supported groups whose sole purpose was anti-semitic
reactions.  These actions did not take place in a vacuum, they were generally
(and I don't mean everyone, but a large majority of the population) supported 
by the local inhabitants.

I do not want to Mutlu about anti-semitism in Eastern Europe.  But do not
try to deny that it was there, that is was virulent.  And in recent times
it was much better to a Jew in Western Europe, than in Eastern Europe.
-- 
 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 -->     David Esan      de@moscom.com  
 
 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: soc.history,soc.culture.nordic
From: johnson@sleipnir.mnesouth.corp.mot.com (Mark Johnson)
Subject: Re: Vikings (Berserkers, mushrooms,missile weapons)
Reply-To: johnson@sleipnir.mnesouth.corp.mot.com
Organization: Motorola Wireless Enterprises, Schaumburg, IL
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 13:46:49 GMT

In article <1992Aug17.161230.8434@burrhus.harvard.edu>, canders@isr.harvard.edu (Carl E. Anderson) writes:
=)In article <1992Aug15.200355.8998@news.eng.convex.com> cash@convex.com (Peter Cash) writes:
=)>The "berserker phenomenon" is a documented fact: sometimes, people under
=)>extreme stress will acquire super-human strength, and will focus all their
=)>attention on the task at hand--be it killing, or single-handedly lifting a
=)>car off a child.
=)
=)	There is a phenomenon found in carnivorous/omivrous animals which
=)may have some bearing on the "berserker phenomenon".  Basically all animals
=)of this type have an ingrained natural urge to kill.  Normally this
=)stimulates them go go out and hunt for food, but when they are in a
=)situation where killing is much easier than it would normally be they are
=)unable to stop killing.  Such conditions have occured so rarely that they
=)have not evolved an "off switch" for this urge to kill.  Thus when the

This sounds like a survival trait for a predator.  Naturally it's in the
animal's best interests to maintain its food supply, and one method of
doing that is to ensure that its prey does not overbreed itself into
starvation.  If the killing is that easy, prey is far more plentiful than
necessary, and probably more than the land can support (especially in an
enclosed place).  Not that the berserk animal reasons it out to this degree,
but the behaviour has probably survived *because of*, rather than despite,
its survival value.
-- 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
|  "Johnson"                              | "                               " |
|  johnson@sleipnir.mnesouth.corp.mot.com |               -- Marcel Marceau   |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
|  Disclaimer:  It's just my Tourette's Syndrome acting up again.             |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Xref: sparky soc.history:7460 soc.culture.japan:6785
From: fsars@acad3.alaska.edu (Allen R Sparks)
Newsgroups: soc.history,soc.culture.japan
Subject: Re: The Russo-Japanese War (part 2)
Date: 17 Aug 92 22:00:49 GMT
Organization: University of Alaska Fairbanks

In article <1992Aug17.145824.10478@acuson.com>, miklg@acuson.com (Michael Goldman ) writes:
> 	Another possibility may simply be that arrogant samurai military men
> 	can't think of anything except military aggression, regardless of whether
> 	it makes any sense.
> 
> 	- Michael Goldman

Could it also have been because they were factoring in Germany's
participation in the war also?  That's the only weakness in your
speculations.  You didn't consider both theatre of operations when
considering their decision to gamble in attacking the U.S.
                    === Al Sparks
From: ceb@dbrus.Unify.Com (Caroline E. Bryan)
Subject: Re: What happened in 1419?
Keywords: "we shall not see them relit in our lifetime"
Organization: /usr/lib/news/organization
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 92 20:54:27 GMT

In article <171m7kINNetf@agate.berkeley.edu> sachs@lhasa.berkeley.edu (Rainer Sachs) writes:
>>>In article <jessica.20@pres.jsc.nasa.gov> jessica@pres.jsc.nasa.gov (Jessica Dickerson) writes:
>>>
>>>>  A while ago, someone mentioned that he/she remembered numbers by 
>>>>interpreting them as dates.  Well, I friend of mine has just received
>>>>a phone number which can be used as a (past) date. So...
>>> 
>>>>What happened in 1419?
>
>>>  Good King Wenceslas died.
>
>1. Absolutely nothing happened in 1419 ... Wenceslas is a red herring. 

King Wenceslas, emperor of the Holy Roman Empire, King of Bohemia, and saint
canonized by the Catholic Church, died in 1419.  Webster's New World Diction-
ary, 2nd ed., p. 1614.


Carrie		ceb@rechenau.unify.com	x6244
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| "Where a man's mind is, there is his treasure."    - Clement of Alexandria |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Re: Dieppe
From: kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay)
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 92 20:43:20 GMT
Organization: The Old Frog's Almanac, Vancouver Island, CANADA
Keywords: Dieppe

In article <1992Aug21.220431.1@camins.camosun.bc.ca> alumni107@camins.camosun.bc.ca writes:

>In article <1992Aug20.171146.1241@compu.com>, fr@compu.com (Fred Rump
>from home) writes: 
>> 
>>	[reply about Dieppe raid]
>> 
>> Does anybody here know what the purpose of this raid was? It was an obvious 
>> suicide mission, but why? Were all the raiders volunteers?

>There are several theories, but the two most likely ones are :

>2) The raid was supposed to fail (though not as disastrously as really 
>happened) to ease pressure from the Russians to open a second front 
>and to allow Churchill to pursue his Mediterranean strategy.

David Eisenhower mentions that one in the book dealing with his
grandfather's war years - I think it was called "Eisenhower - The War Years"
- he went into some detail regarding the British plans for a Mediterranean
campaign, and the pressures brought upon Ike. It was the first time I'd run
into the concept... the speculation was that the raid was intended to show
that a raid on the coast would fail, and therefore the troops and materiel
being reserved for an invasion should be freed for active use in the Med - I
seem to recall that Churchill wanted to motivate Turkey to enter the war on
the side of the Allies? (ring any bells?)

-- 
"Also, our records do not support that Mr. Leuchter performed either
consulting or any service...I can attest that the planning and work was
performed by the Department of Correction Engineering Section and our
institution maintenance department." Signed: Gary T. Dixon, Warden NC
Newsgroups: soc.history
From: brian@odie.cs.mun.ca (Brian Paquet)
Subject: Re: Histyory questions:
Organization: CS Dept., Memorial University of Newfoundland
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1992 01:41:44 GMT

In article <77778@ut-emx.uucp> joe@astro.as.utexas.edu (Joe Wang) writes:
>
>I wonder what would have happen had the Romans and the Chinese met?
>
INtresting. I doubt there would be any kinda allience to crush
Parthia, Tragan[sp?] kicked ass [and killed 2.5 million turks and 
Kurds as part of the evil arminion terrist triangle balh blah:)]
but soon after they left. I would think, that the romans had
for the long term no intrest in taking over parthia,
it was not untill the scythians [I think] that that area
started to be a real pain.
As for the Han dynasty, they had their own troubles and parthia
wasen't one of them. I would think it would
be easier to pick on closer lands for conquest...

Here is a what if [I LOVE WHAT IF's]
What if the romans didn't lose in tutenburg forest [sp?] in 9 AD
and went on to expand to the Ukrane and Iran. while The Han dynasty
took over the rest of asia [including India]
Would they bother to try to take each other out [as long term policy]
or just be content with border wars or find good boundaries.

May your good jib draw.
VOLCANO
>
From: jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin)
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Re: Serbian co-operation with Nazis
Date: 12 Aug 92 12:39:19 GMT
Reply-To: jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin)
Organization: COMANDOS Project, Glesga Yoonie

rocher@husc8.harvard.edu (Jean-Marc Rocher) wrote:
> Recently, I heard someone mention that during WWII, the Serbians had 
> assisted German forces. This was the first I had heard of this, and I am
> curious to know if it is true, and if so, to what extent.

This sort of racial stereotyping is hardly helpful - like everywhere else in
Europe, Serbia in WW2 was polarized into many different classes and political
groupings with distinct responses to Nazism.

The major pro-Nazi force in WW2 Yugoslavia was the Ustasha regime in
Croatia led by Ante Pavelic; this declared itself a state, the NDH
(Independent State of Croatia) and at its height controlled large chunks of
Bosnia and Serbia as well.  While set up by the Nazis, it had equally
important links with Fascist Italy, mediated by the Catholic Church: the
Vatican had official links with it, Archbishop Stepinac was effectively the
second power in the regime, and the Franciscan Order had a particularly
ghoulish role in administering the Jasenovac extermination camp.

The Serbian Chetnik forces under Mihailovic were not so much pro-Nazi as
opportunist; they had monarchist goals which at first led them to oppose
the Nazis, but they drifted into more and more compromises until they
virtually became a client regime.  There were two consistent anti-Nazi
forces: the Partisans under Tito, who were Serbian-dominated (though Tito
himself was a Bosnian Croat, and they had significant support from all over
Yugoslavia), and an autonomous non-Marxist Slovenian force that was
squashed/incorporated by the Partisans before it could achieve very much.

I guess the relevant question is what proportion of the Serbs backed the
Partisans and what Mihailovic, and who each group was: anybody know?

-- 
--  Jack Campin    room G092, Computing Science Department, Glasgow University,
17 Lilybank Gardens, Glasgow G12 8RZ, Scotland   TEL: 041 339 8855 x6854 (work)
INTERNET: jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk or via nsfnet-relay.ac.uk    FAX: 041 330 4913
BANG!net: via mcsun and uknet     BITNET: via UKACRL    UUCP: jack@glasgow.uucp
Newsgroups: soc.history
From: kellys@code3 (Kelly Sorensen)
Subject: Re: BOOK REVIEW: Collier's _The Rise of Selfishness..._
Organization: 3M HIS
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 21:25:40 GMT

In article <11AUG199211231320@mars.lerc.nasa.gov> smpod@mars.lerc.nasa.gov (Stefan) writes:
>kellys@code3 (Kelly Sorensen) writes...
>> ...
>>5.      Immigrants take it square on the nose in Collier's book.  He's
>>        somewhat sensitive to how appalling work conditions contributed
>>        to their world view;  but he seems to hold them accountable at some
>>        level for the rise of selfishness in America.  Do you agree with
>>        this?  Do other historians consider the influence of the immigrants
>>        on American mores as drastic as Collier does?
>
>Who does Colliers consider as immigrants?

He seems to be talking principally about German and Irish immigrants in
the big wave of about 1845-1860, and the wave of immigrants that tended
to be more from south and eastern Europe from about 1880-1920.

Kelly D. Sorensen
kellys@code3.com
From: kkniaz@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Krzysztof W. Kniaz)
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: It's useless!
Date: 19 Aug 92 14:19:37 GMT
Organization: University of Pennsylvania

Few days, ago I sent a letter of complaint to postmaster of Mutlu's
server. I have not received any response until today, thus I guess my
(and others) action was futile. However, what if readers of soc.history
(and other groups, where his venomous texts can be found) start flooding
Multu's address with huge (written in binary cod, at best) messages?

It is relatively easy to write a shell program in UNIX , sending mail
to Mutlu, say every 10 minutes. 

What do you think?

--

Krzysztof Kniaz, University of Pennsylvania | If you can't learn  
Lab for Research on the Structure of Matter | to do it well,
Philadelphia, PA, 19104, USA                | learn to enjoy doing it badly.
Newsgroups: soc.history,soc.culture.japan
From: erics@sco.COM (eric smith)
Subject: Re: The Russo-Japanese War (part 2)
Organization: The Santa Cruz Operation, Inc.
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 17:33:36 GMT


fsars@acad3.alaska.edu (Allen R Sparks) writes:

>miklg@acuson.com (Michael Goldman ) writes:

>>Another possibility may simply be that arrogant samurai military men
>>can't think of anything except military aggression, regardless of whether
>>it makes any sense.

>Could it also have been because they were factoring in Germany's
>participation in the war also?  That's the only weakness in your
>speculations.  You didn't consider both theatre of operations when
>considering their decision to gamble in attacking the U.S.

To what extent *were* the Japanese factoring in Germany's participation?
Certainly they were putting as much pressure as they could on the Germans
to follow them into war with the U.S., but the Germans were not bound to
do so. The Tripartite Pact only required a declaration of war if one of
the pact members was attacked, not if it did the attacking. Did the
Japanese count on German participation, or did they prepare to fight
the U.S. in the Pacific while Germany fought England in Africa and the
Atlantic, as well as fighting the Soviet Union? Certainly the latter
scenario was Britain's great fear.

Hindsight, as they say, is 20/20 and in retrospect the smarter move for
Japan probably would have been to attack the British and Dutch territories
in Southeast Asia while bypassing the Philippines and other U.S.
possessions. There was considerable opposition in the U.S. to entering
the war; Roosevelt may have had a difficult time getting Congress to
declare war on Japan. The presence of the U.S. fleet at Pearl Harbor
was really not much of a threat since it would have had to return to
the West Coast anyway for servicing before any offensive move could have
been made in the western Pacific. But the idea of a sneak attack on
Pearl Harbor had been kicking around for years in the Japanese Navy, and
ideas tend to gain a life of their own and shape the planning of the
individuals involved.

-----
Eric Smith
erics@sco.com
erics@infoserv.com
CI$: 70262,3610

Newsgroups: soc.history
From: d89-jsp@nada.kth.se (Arthur Sparrendahl)
Subject: Re: Vikings (Berserkers)
Organization: Royal Institute of Technology, Stockholm, Sweden
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1992 17:44:34 GMT

While I can't critizise Tom Tedrick for his choise of scope when he 
study the early nordic history, I will give a short alternative. 

Trading in the 700 and 800th was dominated by jews (Mediterranean, the 
near East) and the Frisians (Europa). These get competition from the Vikings
and their far-reaching trade. Transport of mechandise is made at sea on on
rivers. The ships are dragged short distanses between the rivers. These 
strategic positions are soon seized and colonised. The vikings controlled 
the russian trade routes (Dneper to Konstantinople and Volga to the arabs)
and because of this the Nordic countries gain increased importanse in world
trade. (Birka,Hedeby, from 900 Hedeby is in controll) More importand than
the greek trade is the arab trade. The rise of the viking age is very much 
an effect of the abbasid kalifate closing the trade route in the south.
The vikings were thus the only remaining important link between the 'arab'
silver in Afganistan and Turkestan and the west. When there were no more 
silver in Afganistan and Turkestan and the new sources of silver in Harz 
were dicovered at about 1050 AD the viking age ended.

The vikings sold furs, slaves and gold and silver jewelry. The vikings
had excellent craftmen when in comes to metallic jewelry. There skill in
some crafts exceeded what can be found today.

I will soon post a general very short briefing on the nordic history 
of the period.

Arthur
Organization: Masters student, Information Networking Institute, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA