HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: Beatles and the canon
Originator: news@nimaster
Reply-To: roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig)
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 21:19:30 GMT

In article <CB.92Oct14135817@tamarack13.timbuk> cb@tamarack13.timbuk (Chris Brewster) writes:
>Roger Lustig writes:

>   Of course, if you want to match up a modern to Verdi, Lennon and
>   McCartney make him look pretty sick, y'know?  The "common folk"
>   know about a hundred more of their tunes than they do Verdi.  Perhaps
>   500.

>Roger, you've previously said that the Beatles consitute something like
>a modern canon, and I've been wondering about this topic in general.  My

Well, I'd say their songs were among the founding elements of a pop
canon.  Elvis' biggest hits belong there too, along with lots of other
60's and 50's rock.

>daughter and her friend seem to know the Beatles as well as we oldsters
>do, but I know people in their 20s and 30s who don't know their songs at
>all. 

Well, I know people who don't know Beethoven, either, believe it or not.
(Actually, if you played these folks some Beatles tunes, I bet they'd
say, "sounds familiar."  Unless they have no ear for music...)

> For a few decades people have been saying that the chestnuts by
>Kern, Gershwin, Porter et al are "classics", a permanent canon.  But
>when my daughter played Star Dust in a musical program, essentially no
>one there knew the song (still, I believe, the best-selling song of all
>time).  

Stardust?  Hoagy Carmichael's Stardust?  All-time best seller?  I doubt
it.  White Christmas and Yesterday are *certainly* ahead of it.

Now, as to the "standards" being a canon, yes, of course.  That's 
what "Standard" means: canonic in some sense.  In certain situations,
that's what you play.  And the stuff keeps popping up over and over
again: in Woody Allen movies, on Broadway, TV, etc.  You go to hear
older-style jazz, you hear them do "All the Things You Are" and 
"Embraceable You" and "Night and Day."  Sure, not everyone knows them
(everyone *does* know White Christmas and Tiger Rag and Tea for Two
and God Bless America); but that's not the point of a canon.  The point
is that people who do a certain, well-established *kind* of music will
do just *that* music.  

>My wife, a musician, didn't know it.  Only the oldsters and a
>few who are specifically interested in pop classics knew it.  I find
>this regrettable, but it's making me think that even the biggest pop
>hits eventually join "After the Ball" and "Over There" as historical
>curiosities.  Aber des Herrn Wort bleibet in Ewigkeit...same with
>Beethoven?

White Christmas or the Sixth: which one has better recognition?  8-)
As soon as you get beyond dadadadum and Freude, schoener Goetterfunken,
Beethoven's recognition factor goes *way* down.  But T. C. Mits doesn't
*need* to know a lot of Beethoven for Beethoven to be a shaping force
of our musical culture, and that's also true of Beatles and Berlin and
B.B.King.

Roger



Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: cb@tamarack13.timbuk (Chris Brewster)
Subject: Re: Recommendations wanted: Rachmaninov Piano Con. 3
In-reply-to: jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com's message of 14 Oct 92 19:39:52 GMT
Organization: pubs
Date: 14 Oct 92 18:24:10 CDT

Jim Mann writes [of Rach 3]:

   The Van Cliburn recording is very good. It's available on CD
   with one other piano concerto (the Prokofiev 3rd, I think).
                                  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 
Yes!  This is my favorite recording of one of my favorite works, and I
can even explain why: Cliburn does it slower, with more emphasis and
expansion, than the competition--in other words, more like a romantic
concerto.  The wonderful detailing is brought out, along with the humor
and over-all energy.  The style of this work shouldn't be obsessively
hard-edged and frantically fast, which is how almost everyone else does
it, such as John Browning.  (The "should" I just used is based only on
how nice it is when you *don't* do it that way.)  Give this one a try.

Chris Brewster
cb@cray.com
From: bryan@well.sf.ca.us (Bryan Higgins)
Subject: Re: Brahms 3rd Symphony
Organization: Whole Earth 'Lectronic Link
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1992 18:28:14 GMT

>Steve Boyce:
>
>   I'm looking for a good recording of Brahms 3rd and would appreciate
>   your recommendations.  The recordings I have seen in local stores are
>   Szell (Sony), Bernstein(Sony and DG), Karajan

I like Bruno Walter's "Columbia Symphony" recordings for all the Brahms sym-
phonies.

Of the Szell, I like his 3rd the best.  His 1st starts out with an unforgiv-
able tempo glitch by the tympanist, who plays much too fast for a couple of
bars before settling in.

The Cleveland has a *great* clarinetist, though, which is of course a big plus
in Brahms.
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: cb@tamarack13.timbuk (Chris Brewster)
Subject: Re: Re:Mahler's 3rd Symphony
In-reply-to: young7905@iscsvax.uni.edu's message of 14 Oct 92 00:30:17 -0500
Organization: pubs
Date: 14 Oct 92 11:57:21 CDT

Mr or Ms Young writes:

   If anyone's interested, personally I believe I have heard the most
   beautiful piece of music ever written. The piece is Mahler's third
   symphony.  The end of the last movement of this piece is heart
   wrenching in it's simplicity of melody and harmony. This piece moved
   my sould beyond any words and I would recomend anyone who loves music
   to at least check out the last nine minutes of the symphony. Believe
   me, if you do the result could change your life.

It's refreshing to see such a heartfelt reaction, from what appears to
be someone just discovering the great works (or at least one great
work).  Most of us here seem to have known the basic works for 10 or 20
years (are we all old, or what?) and spend our time tossing various
topics back and forth.  We still love the music but may have become a
bit too accustomed to great art.  This comment records how it felt at
the beginning, in the first thrill of discovery.  I'd welcome other such
posts, to keep us in contact with that sense of revelation.

Chris Brewster
cb@cray.com

Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: victor@liteng.segcad.hlo.dec.com (Victor Ma)
Subject: Schedule of San Francisco Opera ?
Keywords: Schedule of San Francisco Opera ?
Reply-To: victor@liteng.segcad.hlo.dec.com (Victor Ma)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation - Marlboro, MA
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1992 17:10:18 GMT



Hi,

I'll be in SF for Thanksgiving 11/25-11/30. 
Does anyone have the schedule of the SF Opera
during that period ?  If you have their number,
that would do, too.  

Thanks a lot,

Victor
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: mvalinis@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Michael J Valinis)
Subject: Monti's Csardas
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 01:14:23 GMT

For what it's worth, I recently bought a CD with Monti's Csardas on it.  The 
album is called _Music from Hungary_, which is a rather misleading title, since
some of the pieces are Rumanian.  The performers are Sandor Lakatos and His 
Orchestra.  This is a traditional Hungarian gypsy orchestra, with lead violin 
and with totally uninhibited clarinet and cimbalom noodling around the melody.
One of the highlights (?) of the album is a medley of Brahms' Hungarian Dances,
# 1, 5, & 6, played in Hungarian gypsy style.  Well, it was cheap.... $5.00.  
It's on the LaserLight lable, # 15 187.... these are the things you see in 
racks in bookstores, with titles like "The World's Greatest Waltzes" & "The 
Best of Mozart".  Don't get me wrong... it's a fun album, and the performance 
of the Csardas is anything but tame!
-- 
=>   Michael J. Valinis   -=+{*}+=-   mvalinis@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu   <=
+>=>   * * *     "Learning music by reading about it is like     * * *   <=<+
=>+>=>   * * *      making love by mail."   - Isaac Stern      * * *   <=<+<=
+>=>+>=>+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+<=<+<=<+
From: Joseph.J.Marcheso.Jr.@dartmouth.edu (Joseph J. Marcheso Jr.)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Brahms 3rd Symphony (Repost)
Date: 13 Oct 92 02:02:33 GMT
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH
X-Posted-From: InterNews1.0a5@newshost.dartmouth.edu

In article <Bw0320.Ex2@sci.kun.nl>
gerritse@sci.kun.nl (Bart Gerritse) writes:

of All these I prefer the Abbado with the tragic ouverture coupled with
it. His interpretation is the most satisfying
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: alexande@genghis.borland.com (Mark Alexander)
Subject: Re: The Abuse of Classical Music
Originator: alexande@genghis.borland.com
Organization: Borland International
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1992 19:51:52 GMT


My solution was to discard the TV and get a piano.  (Of course, my
playing of certain pieces may considered "abuse", but I'm working on it.)
From: mgresham@artsnet.UUCP (Mark Gresham)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: The Voyage: A Synopsis
Date: 16 Oct 92 04:47:56 GMT
Organization: ARTSNET,  Atlanta (Norcross) Georgia

cb@tamarack13.timbuk (Chris Brewster) writes:

> Well, uh, I sort of *liked* the writing.  It's the monolog of a
> schizophrenic (the kind who talk to themselves on the subway, not the
> "split personality" so loved in pulp fiction).  I don't remember another
> work that tries to evoke a disturbed personality in this way.  A few
> times he said "I'm not crazy, but I've got problems," which, along with
> the subsequent elaboration, struck me as an accurate depiction of a
> disturbed person's view of himself.

Actually, I've heard a new work which pretty well evokes a
much altered personality in a monologue.  But not a schizophrenic.
Rather, a person who survived a usually fatal variety of
herpes simplex which left him with a 45-second short-term
memory span.  Based on a real person.  The composer is
Joey Bargsten and the work is "fons chemicae veritatis"
(unless I've completely screwed up the Latin there) or
"The Fountain of Chemical Truth."  The second section
(and final, uninterrupted between sections) included the
monologue mentioned above.

Performed once, to my knowledge, and not commercially
recorded.

--Mark Gresham

dscatl!mgresham@gatech.edu

=====
From: mgresham@artsnet.UUCP (Mark Gresham)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: DEBATE for those who are interested
Date: 16 Oct 92 04:40:40 GMT
Organization: ARTSNET,  Atlanta (Norcross) Georgia

music@moravian.edu (Steve Heller) writes:

> McCartney, Jackson, et al). However, since ALW's music is SO
> PERFECTLY written in a style that is generally considered "vapid" by
> classical standards, he gets an unfair trashing from the classicists
> and others who consider themselves above that sort of music.
> Personally I have no interest in ALW's music, but I do consider it the
> BEST of its KIND, and that is what makes him so popular in the theater
> world: most Broadway musical goers seem to be far more into ALW than
> the classics, and to them ALW is as close to classical as many of them
> wish to get. Just keep it away from MY ears, please...

Actually, I think ALW is so popular with theatergoers for the
equally important reason (for them) that he basically was able
to save a dying genre (the American Musical) from extinction.
Sondheim aside, Broadway was simply going down the tubes.
ALW made it reasonably profitable again.

--Mark Gresham

dscatl!mgresham@gatech.edu

=====
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: Dr. Faustus
Originator: news@nimaster
Reply-To: roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig)
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1992 03:30:13 GMT

In article <1992Oct9.220333.16215@husc3.harvard.edu> vnguyen@husc8.harvard.edu writes:
>In article <1992Oct9.172207.26226@visual.com>,
> rwh@visual.com (Rob Holzel) writes:
>> Jussi Leiwo writes: 

>>>I just happened to read Thomas Manns book Doctor Faustus. It's an extremely
>>>good story about music, how Bach and Beethoven have done everything in the
>>>traditional sonata, and how the new music has to get its ideas from war,
>>>pain, disasters, from everything that is on the negative side of the human
>>>thaughts.

>>>The idea of the book, is that there is a young man, Adrian Leverkuhn, who
>>>is very talent and intellectual. The music chooses him, and he will be the
>>>one who starts creating new kind of music. He promises his soul to the devil
>>>and gets these new ideas of music (I guess the idea is German folk lore).
>>>The basis for 'the new music' is in Schonbergs music.

>> I understood the model to be Mahler.  The descriptions of the music this
>> composer writes is supposed to be very vividly imagined, as though you'd
>> swear that Mann has actually unearthed this music himself.

The "twelve-tone" stuff in the book is clearly based on Schoenberg.
Theodor Wiesengrund-Adorno assisted Mann with the musical bits, and
was immortalized in the book as the character of Wendell Kretzschmar.

>> Interesting that Mann thinks a composer would have to "sell his soul" in
>> order to come up with the new music.  :-)

Well, after Beethoven one would have to.  Leverkuehn wants to "take back"
the Ninth, to withdraw it, as it were.

>The allusion to music is rather incidental for the specter behind
>Adrian Leverkuhn is no-one but Friedrich Nietzsche.  

Mann presented a copy to Schoenberg with the inscription "dem Eigentlichen,"
("to the real one").  There is something of Nietzsche in Leverkuehn, but
also something of Mahler, Schoenberg, and Wolf.  Mann was too subtle a 
writer simply to use one real person as a model.  

btw, I was under the impression that Nietzsche *would* have sold his soul to
be a better musician...

Roger

PS: When the book came out, Schoenberg threw a fit.  He felt that in 
future generations, people would think that the fictitious Leverkuehn
and not he had invented 12-tone music.  (The syphilitic insanity
didn't bother him... 8-) ) Silly, right?  Wrong.   I read an interview
in a German newspaper recently in which Schoenberg's daughter Nuria
tells of meeting people who say, "I know all about your father's music.
I read Dr. Faustus..."  Go figure.
From: diarmuid@uniwa.uwa.edu.au (Diarmuid Pigott)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Why switch to CD?
Date: 8 Oct 1992 11:40:12 +0800
Organization: The University of Westrn Australia
NNTP-Posting-Host: uniwa.uwa.edu.au
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5

I didn't switch, I just added. As I had a large collection of LP's Ep's
and 78's of classical music already, I was worried about this, as
several richer people of my acquaintance did just that. 

The thing that made me change my mind was the release of Brian's Gothic
on CD. I just had to give in then.

I have discovered a number of advantages in using CD's:
	- hearing complete symphonies without turning the LP
	- new recordings of obscure classical masterpieces
	- having a portable CD player at work, I can listen to "latest
	  acquisitions at home, or at work

Sound quality doesn't count as much for me.
From: conrad@brahms.udel.edu (Jon Conrad)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: EMI price increase
Date: 12 Oct 92 16:15:50 GMT
Article-I.D.: news.Bw0nuF.926
Organization: University of Delaware

In article <92283.135948MHUGHES@MIAMIU.BITNET> <MHUGHES@MIAMIU.BITNET> writes:

>My local classical CD supplier said that he has been informed from EMI that
>they plan to increase their per CD prices by $2.  That takes some nerve in
>this day of dropping costs of CD production.

Think it through, please: the costs of pressing the silver disk itself
are the tiniest part of the expense that the recording needs to earn
back.  What about

Hiring the hall or studio
Hiring the orchestra
Renting the music (if not public domain, owned by the orch)
Paying the conductor and soloists
Paying the engineer, producer, editors
Paying someone to write notes or do a translation
Paying support staff for all of the above
Doing publicity
Etc.?

If a company has sunk $500,000 or so into a recording, the only way they
can earn it back is by their X% of each copy sold.  Given the way such
expenses keep going up, one could make a case that CDs cost too LITTLE
in this country (they cost significantly more in Europe).  I'm not going
to push that case myself -- like anyone else, I don't want to pay more.
But compare the increase in all the above expenses in the last 2 decades
to the rise in record prices.  A CD seems like a bargain.

Jon Alan Conrad
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: Dr. Faustus
Originator: news@nimaster
Reply-To: roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig)
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1992 17:29:15 GMT

In article <1992Oct10.170304.13455@news.acns.nwu.edu> ssc@nwu.edu (Steven Chung) writes:
>In article <1992Oct10.164836.12555@Princeton.EDU> roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig) writes:
># In article <1992Oct10.143301.11384@news.acns.nwu.edu> ssc@nwu.edu (Steven Chung) writes:
># >I wonder if Hans Pfitzner had anything to do with Mann's views on music
># >"selling its soul to the devil."

># That would be the first time Mann wrote about a boring subject.  8-)
># Seriously, I doubt he and Adorno would have cared much about Pfitzner,

>I suppose it wore off after a while, but around WWI, Mann seemed to be a
>pretty big fan (eg the really boring parts of the Betrachtungen).  Didn't

Well, yes -- but *after* WWI, Mann's views changed so radically that
he and old "Von deutscher Seele" would have had less than nothing in
common anymore.  Besides, by even broaching the subject of atonality,
he would have been placing himself miles and miles from Pfitzner.

>Adorno complain about being jerked around by Mann (not to mention being
>cast as the devil!)?

Teddy could be quite naive, y'know?  After all, this was MAnn, not Joe
Schmo, he was working with.  He should have known that the novel 
wouldn't simply be a piece of negative dialectic or whatever (though
Kretschmar's Op.111 talk is very much like "Spaetwerk Beethovens,"
an essay from the 30's).

Roger
>-- 
>ssc@nwu.edu | Nam castum esse decet pium poetam (Catullus 16)


Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: nchawla@nmt.edu (Nikhilesh Chawla)
Subject: Re: Re: Orchestras/conductors
Organization: New Mexico Tech
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 17:41:37 GMT

In article <R099RB1w164w@uuisis.isis.org> meyer@uuisis.isis.org (Katherine Meyer) writes:
>rms@hpgrla.gr.hp.com (Rick Scherer) writes:
>
>>Toronto             DAVIS
>

I'd like to add to the list with one of our own her in New Mexico:

New Mexico Symphony 		STULBERG (although he's leaving soon)



Nik
From: 00hfstahlke@bsu-ucs.uucp
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: TeX or LaTeX for music manuscript
Date: 8 Oct 92 15:31:38 GMT

Does any one know of a TeX or LaTeX application developed for producing
properly formatted musical manuscript?

Herb Stahlke
Ball State University
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: ssc@nwu.edu (Steven Chung)
Subject: Re: Dr. Faustus
Originator: schung@casbah.acns.nwu.edu
Organization: Northwestern University, Evanston Illinois.
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1992 17:03:04 GMT

In article <1992Oct10.164836.12555@Princeton.EDU> roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig) writes:
# In article <1992Oct10.143301.11384@news.acns.nwu.edu> ssc@nwu.edu (Steven Chung) writes:
# >I wonder if Hans Pfitzner had anything to do with Mann's views on music
# >"selling its soul to the devil."
# 
# That would be the first time Mann wrote about a boring subject.  8-)
# Seriously, I doubt he and Adorno would have cared much about Pfitzner,

I suppose it wore off after a while, but around WWI, Mann seemed to be a
pretty big fan (eg the really boring parts of the Betrachtungen).  Didn't
Adorno complain about being jerked around by Mann (not to mention being
cast as the devil!)?

-- 
ssc@nwu.edu | Nam castum esse decet pium poetam (Catullus 16)
From: inr@eccles.caltech.edu (I. Neill Reid)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: re: Rackoczy march question
Date: 16 Oct 92 02:44:00 GMT
Organization: California Institute of Technology
NNTP-Posting-Host: eccles.caltech.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41


 The march is an interlude - Faust is transported to Hungary
and, from what I remember, muses on the futility of war and/or
transience of humanity while watching an army marching by.
Rackoczy was an Austro-Hungarian (maybe just Hungarian) general,
on the opposite side to Radetzky of J. Strauss Snr. fame. (But
whether they were actually in conflict at any time and if so
over what I can't say I've ever discovered)

 Neill Reid
From: alves@calvin.usc.edu (William Alves)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Bach's sixth cello suite.  What happened?
Date: 10 Oct 1992 12:35:12 -0700
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: calvin.usc.edu

In article <MURRAY.92Oct10094827@aristotle.ils.nwu.edu> murray@aristotle.ils.nwu.edu (Thomas Murray) writes:
>Speaking of Bach's cello suites, I've been doing some fairly intense
>listening lately.  The sixth suite (D major) really stands out. The
>movements, especially the Prelude and Allemande have gotten much
>longer than previous suites (with the exception of the Prelude of the
>fifth suite in C minor), much more dramatically intense, and the range
>just exploded.  The Prelude goes up to a high E (I believe)!!  And it
>stays up there much of the time, before suddenly plunging down to the
>depths. 

I think that the main reason this suite has a much wider range is that
it was written for a 5 string instrument. There was some information
posted a while back about the controversy surrounding this instrument
and its supposed invention by Bach as the "viola pomposa." I'm sure
someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think we have enough
information about the chronology of the suites, or indeed, most of the
chamber music, to do more than speculate about his "maturation process"
or what specific events in his life might have influenced its composition.
Some musicologists have made claims for certain chronologies and influ-
ences based solely on stylistic analyses, but this sort of thing is always
iffy. We simply don't have the documentation or the amount of obvious 
stylistic change for Bach as we do for, say, Beethoven.

Bill
From: hla@ecs.soton.ac.uk (Helen Ashman)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Turangalila in the UK, where and when?
Keywords: Turangalila
Date: 7 Oct 92 13:51:16 GMT

Hi all,

It's rumoured (in a concert program) that the BBCSO are going to
perform Turangalila with Joanna MacGregor sometime soon in the UK.
But I rang BBC and they know nothing about it.

Does anyone know anything about this? Where, when ... 

Helen.
From: Joseph.J.Marcheso.Jr.@dartmouth.edu (Joseph J. Marcheso Jr.)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Glass meets Clive Barker response
Date: 15 Oct 92 20:00:56 GMT
Article-I.D.: dartvax.1992Oct15.200056.10779
 <1992Oct13.212828.24507@dartvax.dartmouth.edu> 
 <1992Oct14.013149.22071@Princeton.EDU>  
 <1992Oct15.020911.15679@slc.com>
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH
X-Posted-From: InterNews1.0a5@newshost.dartmouth.edu

In article <1992Oct15.020911.15679@slc.com>
marcs@slc.com (Marc San Soucie) writes:

> I suppose this is what comes of requiring all Dartmouth students to learn 
> how to use computers.

Gee know about our program. Read about it in the application? Must have
been crushed when you didn't get in. You'll have to excuse me I forgot
there are still some BIG PRINT Dr. Seuss readers out there. Thanks for
debating the substance of the issue.