From: dci@cs.washington.edu (Donald Chinn)
Newsgroups: alt.drumcorps
Subject: Re: The Star of Indiana, HATE
Date: 18 Aug 92 21:02:49 GMT
Organization: Computer Science & Engineering, U. of Washington, Seattle


In article <1992Aug18.195937.16742@midway.uchicago.edu> xklh@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>In article <1992Aug18.185848.8020@beaver.cs.washington.edu> dci@cs.washington.edu (Donald Chinn) writes:
>
>>-        I'm just itting here reading all the hatred of them, and I heard all
>>- the booing, etc, all season. WHY? Is it just because we have corporate
>>- sponsorship, and will allow all types of people into our corp, based on their
>>- abilities not their pocketbooks? (sorry, couldn't help but ask that question
>>- since someone told me "The Star of Indiana" was filled with low-class people))
>>
>>>I really didn't want to get into this subject but since
>>>you asked.  Most corps, big and small, had (have) to work
>>>to get started and to get new members and good instructors.
>>>Star *stole* the best instructors all around the country
>>>by flashing money.  And yes, Star is talented, but they
>>>have the best instructors for the wrong reason.
>>
>>I'm a little confused.  What exactly are the right reasons for
>>an instructor to work for a particular organization?  It seems
>>to me that if I were an instructor or designer and I wanted
>>to have my drill or whatever realized, then I would go to a corps
>>that offered me some money, especially if I were a starving artist
>>trying to go to school and make ends meet, etc.
>
>>I probably would not want to work for a corps whose environment is
>>not conducive to being creative or where egos amonsgt the staff
>>gets in the way of being productive.  I probably wouldn't work for
>>a corps whose management or philosophy advocates the slaughter of
>>whales, etc. (so far what I have said applies to any kind of work,
>>not just drum corps).  But there's nothing about Star (yet) that I
>>violently object to.
>
>Just out of curiosity, have you ever marched drumcorps?

It's not clear to me what relevance this has on the discussion, but
as I have stated in an earlier post, I have never marched corps, which
may or may not make my opinions on anything more rational, although I'd
like to hear how you believe having marched in drum corps influences
your outlook on things.  I am always willing to get more info on the
topic of drum corps, and I am always intrigued by people's opinions and
attitudes towards things in drum corps.

>>From a corps management point of view, why not offer lots of money
>>to get talented people?  I'd do it if I were running a corps, because
>>if I didn't, I'd be robbing my kids of a better musical experience by
>>not exposing them to great instructors.
>
>The circumstances in which they *stole* these instructors
>was wrong.  That is all that I am saying.

I guess I'm not sure what "stole" means.  Does it mean that the
instructors were taken away from other corps against their wills?
Did they actually kidnap them?  What circumstances are you referring
to?

>>I don't get this "underdog" mentality, where we (the generic "we") think
>>that because some corps works twice as hard to get where they are that they
>>deserve first place.  No one can take away the achievement of any of the
>>corps, no matter what their final placement.  Judging and the final rankings
>>are supposed to be about the performance, not about the behind the scenes
>>stuff.  Now I realize that nowhere in the post is there mention that
>>Star should not have won (all that was said was that you hated Star), but
>>it does seem to be implied.
>
>I never made any mention about the fact that whoever works
>harder should win.  I dislike the people in and associated
>with Star.  If you want to know if I think that Star was
>good enough to win this year?  Looking at their show only?
>No, I don't think so.  I think that The Cadets (Garfield)
>should have won with Star in a very close second.  Cavies
>didn't deserve to win but I'm glad that they did because
>I think that they should have won last year.  Star's show
>didn't move me too much this year.  Stars and Stripes rah, rah
>got boring very fast.  I don't like Star but like I said
>before they are talented.  

We agree that my interpretation (that underdog implies more work
implies more deserving of 1st place) of your comments was incorrect.

>>>Star does not let all people of all shapes and sizes into
>>>their corps.  You have to be a certain weight and height.
>>>And your ever so precious wonderful staff told me that!!
>>>Also, how much to Star members pay a year in dues?  Could
>>>it be only $200?  YES!  You don't work for the money
>>>you get.  Mr. Cook just hands it over.  That is not
>>>drumcorps.
>>
>>This is a situation where the idea of drum corps as a youth activity
>>and drum corps as a music education medium comes into conflict.  At the
>>top levels, drum corps have to be extremely selective, which means not
>>only do they have to be able to play an instrument or spin a flag well,
>>they even have to have a uniform look for the right visual effect.
>
>The major problem that I have with this is that 1.) it is
>descrimination and 2.) they do not do this very nicely,
>from what I understand.  They basically say" you're fat
>and you think that you are going to march with Star."

1. Then the Cavies discriminate by sex (so does Madison, Ventures, ...),
which is perhaps even more abominable than discrimination by "look".  All
corps probably discriminate when choosing a drum major (when was the last
drum major in the top whatever who was fat?).
2. Now this is not nice, I agree, if they actually say these words.

>>This may sound a bit racist, but I find it hard to believe that a white
>>person could make it big as a rapper.  I'll believe it, however, when I
>
>White people can be rapper's too.

Again, we agree.

>>>Yeah, yeah.  I know that the Star people think that everyone
>>>else is jealous.  Well, that is not it.  I wouldn't march
>>>in Star if they paid me, which I understand is not all
>>>that uncommon.  Every single person that I ever tried to
>>>speak to from Star was rude and walked around with this,
>>>"I am better than you" attitude.  Which is really a shame
>>>because it would be nice if DCI could be one big happy
>>>family.
>>
>>I doubt if EVERY single person in Star is like this (although I do not
>>know this first hand).  And if you go from corps to corps, you probably
>>get a significant number of kids who think that they are hot shit because
>>of whatever.  These are kids being kids.  What's worse is that these
>>attitudes are propagated by (guess who) the parents and alumni.  A vicious
>>circle indeed.
>
>I agree with you, but that does not excuse it.  I actually did
>find an exception to the statement that I made above.  One
>girl that I met at Finals in '87 said that she was embarassed
>to have marched with Star.  

All I can say here is that negative impressions yield even more neagtive
impressions.  I know it happens with me all the time.  Once I have decided
X, then I look for evidence to confirm X.

What exactly was this girl you met embarassed about?  Did she say?

-- Donald