From: usr77@pil.UUCP
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: re:  re: Official Compuserve Policy ... )Elton Wildermuth(
Date: 14 Sep 92 00:23:56 GMT


Regarding my earlier post (title- You REALLY aren't going to like
this... ) trying to get help in stopping a pagan bashing planned
by Xtians as their Halloween celebration, (can't they simply give
out candy or go to church?) I hope pagans care enough at least to
comment on a planned pagan bashing... if we don't care what
happens to our fellow pagans, we should not be surprised when a
bunch of fundies show up on our doorsteps with baseball bats and
gasoline, or when we suffer discrimination in hiring or housing
based on our religions.

If we don't hang together, we will assuredly burn separately.


Now, on a relatively less important topic:
========================== quoted post ==============================
>From: elton@sybase.com (Elton Wildermuth)
>Newsgroups: alt.pagan
>Subject: Re: OFFICIAL COMPUSERVE POLICY ON USENET POSTS FROM
>COMPUSERVE
>Message-ID: <23228@sybase.sybase.com>
>Date: 9 Sep 92 18:09:40 GMT
>References: <T8ZqqB3w165w@drc.UUCP>
>Sender: news@Sybase.COM
>Organization: Paratheo-Anametamystikhood of Eris Esoteric, Edwin
>Meese Cabal
>Lines: 29
>
>In article <T8ZqqB3w165w@drc.UUCP> alizard@drc.UUCP (alizard) writes:
>>All messages sent and recieved by members of CompuServe are
>>confidential to those members, and any attempt to block messages
>>is considered censorship.  [...]
>>======================= end of quote ==========================
>>In other words, if someone gets an accountmpuserve
>>and uses it to post a meg of extracts from alt.sex.bondage
>>and GIFs of bestiality onto  the Xtian newsgroups, Compuserve
>>takes no responsibilites for the actions of its users. At all.
>
>In other words, CompuServe believes in personal freedom (and will not
>force any accompanying exercise of personal restraint), while alizard
>does not.  Which of these would *you* characterize as a more liberal,
>liberated, liberating attitude?
>
>This is as good a demonstration as any I have ever seen that one need
>not be Christian in order to exhibit a distressing narrow-mindedness and
>willingness to censor others.  With just one small change in style of
>worship, we have here the makings of a fine, upstanding Presidential
>candidate who is sure to capture the Family Values vote.
>
>Robert Burns:  "Ah, wad a gift the Giftie'd gie us, tae see oursel's as
>others see us."
>
>  -- Elton
    ======================= flame on =====================
Elton, if YOU like to have Xtians in your face, hopefully, the
Goddess will see fit to give you an abundance of them in a way
that doesn't endanger other pagans. Or perhaps you simply missed
the start of the thread and have no idea what the hell you are
talking about. (the issue is "Are Jesus freaks allowed to
propagandize on this newsgroup without restriction from
Compuserve? Your answer appears to be YES.)

Of course electronic mail is supposed to be private. I recommend
and use PGP10 for items I'm REALLY serious about keeping private.
However, the rules with paper mail are the ones that should be
applied here, I am not allowed to use the mail for committing
fraud, hate mail, personal harassment. This restriction does not
involve having everyone's mail opened to censor out offensive
content. I don't know what the rules for mail WITHIN Compuserve
are, but I doubt that I'd be allowed to harass other C-serve
users for long if I were to get a C-serve account (which will
happen when YHVH buys prime commercial time on all 4 major
networks to announce His conversion to paganism, cyberspace has
enough frustrations involved in its current use without spending
money to access a system that I KNOW to be run by jackasses.) and
get away with it, the C-serve freedom of speech is limited to
freedom that doesn't annoy C-serve management. (test- send
obscene flames to Senator Robert Dole and every member of C-serve
mgmt... and see how long it takes to get the account from which
the messages are sent deleted!)

My opinion on the allowed usages of electronic mail is what
someone sends me is none of anyone else's business, unless I
don't want to hear from that person, in that case, I inform him
of that, and if he doesn't stop sending me junk mail AFTER I
REQUEST HE CEASES AND DESISTS FROM DOING SO, I complain to his
sysadmin. (and if the sysop doesn't cooperate and the problem
continues, I go after the network access of the system in
question. If WE don't enforce good manners and common courtesy in
Cyberspace, the Goddess certainly won't do it for us...)

***** Note that using E-mail to post to 20 different newsgroup
messages whose only intent is to harass their respective user
base is not covered by my definition of electronic freedom of
speech, any more than driving down a residential street at 3 AM
in a truck with a 10,000 watt sound system telling people that
they are going to hell if they don't believe in Christ is part of
freedom of speech.

Chris Colvin, the Compuserve user who was using Berkeley mail to
news to post one way messages to this newsgroup, and charging
users who responded to his posts via E-mail with harassment, and
as a result, zapping some of our fellow pagans out of cyberspace
(his post says 5 of us) was using Compuserve to get himself
backdoor Usenet access on a system that does not care what he
does with it. If he were posting intelligent messages germane to
the purpose of the newsgroup, even controversial ones, I'd would
have no objections to his use of it, and I certainly wouldn't
have spent several hours on trying (successfully, I think) to get
him zapped off his Usenet access. His attitude is that "I'm
witnessing for Christ, and if you don't like it, F*CK YOU, I can
do whatever I want ANYWHERE I want"... I rather doubt he would
defend my freedom of speech if I were to walk into the fundie
church of his choice with a bullhorn and tell the congregation
what I think of fundamentalists. Or for that matter, defend my
freedom to post a message to that effect on the Xtian Usenet
newsgroups.

Elton, if you like to read Xtian posts, there are plenty of Xtian
newsgroups. Since you regard the difference between Xtianity and
paganism as "minor", you should be right at home there, you
certainly have the IQ for a fundie.

You are obviously one of those fanatic "civil liberties" types
that defends the "right" to shout "FIRE" in a crowded theater.
People like YOU are the examples that Religious Right types use
to discredit civil libertarians in the eyes of the general
public, every time people like YOU speak out in public, the cause
of freedom of speech is set back another year or two.

Elton, I wonder where YOU were when my post announcing the
planned Xtian attack on pagans in Sewickley, PA and requesting
assistance in stopping it crossed your screen. (my access to
alt.pagan has been pretty flaky lately) Presumably you defended
the rights of Xtians, including that of pagan bashers and gay
bashers to freedom of expression, including the "right" of fundie
thugs to breaking up pagan rituals as a statement of political
opinion.

You are living proof that STUPIDITY is not limited to Xtians either.
I wonder why you felt the need to remind us of this.
==================== end of flaming of idiot ====================

Bright Blessings...
A.Lizard
( formerly alizard@drc.uucp )
alternate address:
  alizard@tweekco.uucp                 boo!tweekco!alizard@PacBell.COM
  [path]!uunet!pacbell!boo!tweekco!alizard
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