HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: joe@astro.as.utexas.edu (Joe Wang)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Re: Political Prostitutes or Democractic Activitists  ?
Date: 19 Nov 92 17:50:19 GMT
Organization: McDonald Observatory, University of Texas @ Austin

In article <1992Nov19.125940.11065@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> mlibucha@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Mark A Libucha) writes:
>Correct me if I'm wrong (and I may be), but wasn't the whole idea of Most
>Favored Nation status developed in the first place so that the U.S. could
>use the US market as a lever to force other nations to meet certain
>human rights conditions?

No it wasn't.  The official name for "most-favored nation trade
status" is non-discriminatory trade (look at the U.S. Custom's
regulations and you will see it called that).  The reason for NDT is
to prevent "beggar my neighbor" policies in which country A restricts
trade with country B to help its domestic industries.  The problem is
that country B will likely retaliate by doing the same to country A,
and eventually everyone restricts trade with everyone else, and
everyone loses.  This was one reason that the Great Depression was as
bad as it was.

The concept behind MFN is to make so that if one imposes trade
restrictions on one country, one imposes it on all countries.  The
only case in which MFN has ever been used as a human-rights weapon was
during the 1970's in which Congress passed a bill denying MFN to
Soviet Bloc countries in order to aid the emigration of Russian Jews.
(The sanctions on Yugoslavia, Iraq, South Africa, and Libya have
nothing to do with MFN.  Iraq, Libya, and South Africa have MFN even
now.)

>In other words, I think the whole reason for
>MFN is to tie trade to human rights.

If you read the documents on the General Agreements on Trades and
Tariffs, and the U.S. laws on the matter, it's hard to make that case.

>Why is the idea of forcing the CCP to release political prisoners so bad? 

The trouble is that the CCP is not going to be forced to do anything
like that.  The CCP cares more about holding on to power than it does
about MFN.  Hence by imposing a strict CMFN package, you are
effectively removing MFN from China and getting nothing in return.

Look at Iraq, the United States has imposed trade sanctions that are
far more restrictive than anything contemplated for China.

Has it helped?

Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
From: x0y3510@tamuts.tamu.edu (Xuejun Yang)
Subject: Re: CFMN?
Organization: ~/lib/organization
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 23:29:22 GMT

In article <BxtH7E.Bp4@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> xlli@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (xiao-lin li) writes:
>In article <Bxq469.FKy@news.iastate.edu> zzuo@iastate.edu (Zhiqi Zuo) writes:
>>
>>>People become arrogant, lazy, even evilsome when they have nothing to worry.
>>
>>Then, CFMN can make those lazy people work harder?
>
>Yes, I think so. I think the original intention of the CMFN and
>those who promote it is not to terminate trade with China. Instead
>it is just a positive gesture and human compassion to the Chinese 
>people. The statement is the following: if you want to make money 
>for your children, fine, treat people in your country nicely. 
>
Only idiots like you get fooled by the above noble intentions, If you
note a little bit about what the CIA has done to the South american
countries, the philipines and even in China (during Tiennamen for
example), you know a lot of it is just a smoking screen. The true 
intention is for power play.    
Just for your info, CIA financed coup in Peru in the 60's,
CIA was involved in overthrowing of Marcos in the philipines,
CIA was around Tienanmen in 1989(5 groups in fact).
>>You parents may feel sorry to hear this.
>>
>>Zi3 Bu4 Xian2 Mu3 Chou3, Nu3 Bu4 Wu4 Fu4 Pin2.
>
>Why should they be hurt? They had arranged the best they
>could. I slept in office for several days. Then the door
>man said he could let me to sleep in his bed. Week later,
>my brother's school began summer vacation, I got a bed 
>in the student dormitry. I didn't go back but I did invite
>them here because we have larger room in Indiana.
>
>
You know China is poor, but the majority of the people have
benefited greatly from open door policy. CMFN only hurts
ordinary people. Your life is comfortable now, and you have
become semi-american, so you can care less about the people
in China. Is this moral?
From: yijun@dcs.qmw.ac.uk (Yi Jun Yin)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Re: PRC wants to abrogate Joint Declaration on HK
Date: 20 Nov 92 10:18:41 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Dept, QMW, University of London

In <1992Nov19.083756.19372@pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu> wing@pegasus.com (Wing Ng) writes:
> 
>Even back in 1983, during the PRC-U.K. negotiation on HK's future,
>people were quoting this Bible metaphor:
> 
>Two women both claim a baby belongs to them, and the case went to
           ^^^^^^^^^^
>King Solomon.  The King took out a sword, and proceeded to cut the
>baby in two, so that each woman can have 1/2.  One of the women
>cried: "stop".  The King said, "you must be the true mother, you
>care about the baby's well-being."
> 
>Sorry, the foreigner U.K. cares about our well-being (to some extent),
>whereas the gangster group that now controls our motherland does
>not.  

A terrible logic mistake was made by the people who had quoted the Bible 
metaphor that way.  Do British think that they have the right to claim that
Hong Kong should be their territory?  Isn't China the only country that the 
world(or at least Britain) accepts has the sovereignty over Hong Kong whether
you like it or not(If anybody impractically thinks of HK independence, that 
would be another matter)? 

Think about the metaphor again with the above in mind. 
 
Jun 
Xref: sparky soc.culture.china:30898 talk.politics.china:2828 soc.culture.taiwan:15484
From: umhuang4@ccu.umanitoba.ca (Hui Huang)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china,talk.politics.china,soc.culture.taiwan
Subject: Re: NEWS: China overseas policy change
Date: 20 Nov 92 20:45:47 GMT
Organization: University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Canada

In <1992Nov20.013233.13448@msc.cornell.edu> xiaobiao@lynx.msc.cornell.edu.UUCP (X(b)Z,408A Thurston Hall,59155,) writes:

>From article <1992Nov19.120457.90647@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au>, by mte152s@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au:
>> ......
>> Indeed, even after TAM in 1989, an American journalist surprisingly found that
>> Chinese students were not stopped by the Chinese Government, rather, they are
>> refused by US consulate officials in Peking, who were inforcing a new
>> tightenening of visa for Chinese students (see an article in the International

>------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>The stupid American journalist, like most of his western peers, only looked at 
>what happened in Beijing around that time, and got his most misleading answer!
>:-((

I applied for my passport and visa at the same time in September 1989. I
got the passport in one month and the visa in one year. The Chinese official
didn't ask anything but the Canadian one asked a lot.
-- 
Hui Huang		Hui_Huang@UManitoba.ca
			Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
                        Phone: (204) 275-5278
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
From: hongl@cs.tamu.edu ()
Subject: Please let Zhou Enlai rest in peace
Organization: Computer Science Dept., Texas A&M University
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 20:09:42 GMT

1).  I honestly believe Zhou had considered all the factors before he made 
the decision to do what he believed to be the best thing to do for china.

2).  Outsiders are always more clear than the people involved.  But again, 
outsiders may not know all the facts and difficulties he had to face.  
Pang2 guan1 zhe3 qing1, dang1 juu2 zhe3 mi2.

3).  For those of you who think he could have stopped Mao from doing wrong
things, think twice.  Zhou didn't have the power or military support.  Even
if he did, was starting a civil war really worth it?  People had suffered 
enough from World Wars.  Besides, he couldn't foresee what could happen in
the future, being in his shoes, he avoided internal fights by compromising.

4).  For those of you who think he should have stood up to Mao, then he would
be a hero, but would China be better off with a dead Zhou.  He put down his
pride, his honor, even himself, worked hard for the goals he believed would
be beneficial to China at that time.

5).  He was found with cancer in 1973, I think.  In the final 4 years of his
life, he could have chosen to lay back and rest, but instead, he chose to work
even harder in order to compete with time, to try to get as many barriers out 
of way as possible, and he suffered tremendously.

6).  For those of you who think he did wrong and want to punish him,
just think having no children as his punishment.  Even if the rumor were true
that he had children, then he couldn't know his children, live with his 
children, must be a painful thing.

7).  For those of you who like to judge people, just step in his shoes and
see if you can do better.  If not, then stop judging him.  If yes, then
have you done anything for the people.  Even if the answer is yes, shouldn't
you spend more time on helping others since you have the ability than judging
him.  May be you would say you don't have the power, but then since you have
the ability, you should be able to think some way to do more constructive 
things.

Finally, past is past.  I understand exploring the past would help us avoiding
mistakes in the future.  But concentrate too much on what would have been done
or what should have been done can't help us building a bright future.  Just
remember Zhou was only human being, he was not god, he couldn't control a lot
of things, he made mistakes, and he suffered for them.  So, I ask you all 
please let him rest peacefully.

Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
From: phung@attmail.com
Subject: concert: the Chinese Music Ensemble of New York
Content-Type: text
Original-Date: Sun Nov 22 23:15:56 EST 1992
Ua-Message-Id: <phung3280415570>
Original-To: attmail!internet!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!soc.culture.taiwan
Organization: OSU Physics Dept.
Original-From: attmail!phung (Jonathan  Hung )
Email-Version: 2
Ua-Content-Id: <phung3280415570>
Mts-Message-Id: <phung3280415570>
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 04:18:05 GMT
Content-Length: 726

The Chinese Music Ensemble of New York
--------------------------------------


Autumn Concert 1992

time:       Nov. 29 (Sun), 2 PM

location:   I.S. 131
            Dr. Sun Yat Sen Intermediate School
            100 Hester St.
            NYC

Free Admission

Director:   Yu-chiung Teng
Conductor:  Chang-yuan Wang

Banhu:      Wen-jie Xia
Erhu:       Jing-qiang Guo
Pipa:       Jane Xu
Zheng:      Chang-yuan Wang
Gaohu:      Jian-qiang Zhu
Pingtan:    Ling-ling Zhao

Village Voice: "...plays a repertorire that lies between the most refined
                classical idioms and the most ear-catching ones"

Daily News:    "...presented an intriguing program of sounds. Uniquely
                stimulating to the ear"


Newsgroups: soc.culture.china,talk.politics.china,soc.culture.taiwan
From: ldong@hila.hut.fi (Liyun Dong)
Subject: Re: NEWS: China overseas policy change
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 07:42:19 GMT

In article <BxvMtt.7J0@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> achen@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (positron) writes:
>
>
>If they immigrated from Europe, they are blood brothers
>of the "conquerers of the Americas".
>
>If they immigrated from Asia, they are beggars.
>
>
>Your house is poor and in bad shape.  You see that your
>neighbor has a beautiful house and lots of delicious food
>inside ... you (typical css member) go to your neighbor's 
>house and beg and plead for him to let you live in his house 
>and you fight viciously with other beggars (other css members)
>for your neighbor's table scraps and leftover foods.
>
>
>On the other hand, a person who does not have a beggar 
>or slave mentality of the typical css member would consider 
>the following:
>
>1) Forcibly enter your neighbor's house.  Severely beat and
>subdue him.  Plunder and enjoy your neighbors house and eat
>his delicious foods at will.  Invite all of your relatives
>to come to your newly conquered house and enjoy life for you
>are now the new master of this beautiful house.  (This is
>the whiteman's method ... of killing the native americans
>and conquering his land)
>
>2) Struggle hard to make you own house a better place to
>live in ... to make it even more beautiful than your neighbor's
>house.
>
>
>The moral of the story is that the whiteman (by killing
>millions of Americans Indians and stealing his land) has 
>earned his right to enjoy the riches and bounties of America.
>Those Chinese who beg and plead to be able to stay in
>America will always be looked down upon by the whiteman
>as mere beggars and slaves who deserve nothing more than
>table scraps and leftovers.  You will never live in 
>America as equals to the whiteman.
>
>This is a very cruel world.  The only thing that counts
>is power.  Pure and absolute power.  There is no such
>thing as equals among men ... only differing levels of
>strength.  Those who are weak will always be stepped on
>by the stronger.  Begging for mercy is a definite sign
>of weakness and thus serves only to invite further
>abuse from those who are stronger.
>
>

What about Dr An Wang who found his own company in US and became a
multi-billionaire?  Was he a beggar or a conqueror? Most of his employees
were whites. He established his company in New England because he 
found that the people (maintream whites) there were the best educated
and with high efficiency. He made a great profit from those talented
and industreous white employees. 

You can choose be a slave or master wherever you are. 

Pan
-------
Finland



Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
From: kemnitz@netcom.com (Greg Kemnitz)
Subject: Re: questions of the Korean WAr
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1992 17:45:26 GMT

A thing that I've always found interesting is that most Mainlanders regard
the Korean War as a "victory", while it has always been presented in the
US as a "draw".  It is regarded as a "draw" in the US since the military
situation which existed before the war is essentially identical to that which
existed after the war, in terms of territory.

It could even be argued that the war was a "limited victory" for China, since
the primary Chinese military objective of maintaining a friendly buffer state
between China and American armies was achieved, while "total victory" would
have involved complete conquest of the Korean peninsula by either side.  I
suppose this would be the argument used in China, although I doubt that the
CCP uses the word "limited" :-)

The primary US objective of maintaining South Korea _was_ achieved.

It seems that the real losers were the dead of both sides and the Koreans
themselves, who gained nothing in the war and had their country wrecked.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Greg Kemnitz                        | "I ran out of the room - I
MultiMedia Information Systems Inc. | didn't want to be killed by a pile
kemnitz@netcom.com                  | of VMS manuals" :-)
                                    |
                                    | --A friend at DEC Palo Alto in the Quake
From: s245@cs.utexas.edu (Spring Class Account)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Re: CFMN?
Date: 16 Nov 1992 23:29:21 -0600
Organization: CS Dept, University of Texas at Austin
NNTP-Posting-Host: nada.cs.utexas.edu

In article <BxuAFp.GEp@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> xlli@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (xiao-lin li) writes:
>CMFN will directly hurt decendents of CCP high officials.
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Human right abuse directly hurt ordinary Chinese people.
>As a person from ordinary Chinese, I think human right is more
>important than MFN. You are entitled to hold your view.
>I believe I am moral.
>

What if CMFN hurts the ordinary Chinese people more than the decendents of

CCP high officials?

Would you publish a name list of the decendents of CCP high officials 

who are making millions?  

Is there any other way besides CMFN to punish these decendents?  

Punishing these decendents seems to be a popular move for IFCSS to consider.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

President-elect Clinton will not cut off China trade.  

It is unlikely that he welcomes the CMFN bill.



Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
From: hu@sparky.drad.umn.edu (Xiaoping Hu (Dr. Who))
Subject: nanny needed
Keywords: child care
Organization: University of Minnesota
Distribution: mn
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 19:24:21 GMT

Nanny needed for caring of 2 children, ages 4 and 6 during the day and
light miscellaneous housework in a nice west suburb home. Livein optional.  
Ability to speak Chinese and/or English is needed.  Experience desired 
and reference(s) required.

Please leave message at 476-4683.
From: naufal@ocf.berkeley.edu (Naufal A. Khan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: test.
Date: 20 Nov 1992 01:56:16 GMT
Organization: U.C. Berkeley Open Computing Facility
Distribution: ucb
NNTP-Posting-Host: hailstorm.berkeley.edu

this is a test.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
From: mlibucha@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Mark A Libucha)
Subject: Somebody tell me why this is wrong
Organization: The Ohio State University
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 15:56:35 GMT

	It seems to me that it is extremely hypocritical to be both for
unconditional MFN and for (and protected by) the Student Protection Act.

	Those in this position appear to be saying, "When my ass is on
the line, human rights is the issue. The human rights conditions in
China are so bad that if I go back I'll be harrassed, perhaps put in
jail, perhaps killed." But human rights are only a secondary 
consideration for everyone else in China, be they D-fighters, businessmen,
or farmers. Only a strong economy is important when it's other people's
lives on the line.

	Well, whaddaya say?

Mark
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
From: liuyh@vis.toronto.edu (Yuanhui Liu)
Subject: Re: Zhou En-lai and his characters
Organization: Department of Computer Science, University of Toronto
Distribution: na 
Date: 18 Nov 92 15:23:14 GMT

In article <102438@bu.edu> lix@thames.bu.edu (Xiaowen Li) writes:
>In article <gaojeng.722080219@durras> gaojeng@durras.anu.edu.au (J. Gao) writes:
>>"The corruption, incompetence and ineptitude of politicians is often a
>>legitimate cause of deep, firm and entirely justified moral judgements and
>>forebodings... Politicians can be clowns as well as crooks or both at once.
>>Some of them may even arise to the level of statesmanship and then we
>>praise, admire and forgive them."
>>
>>-D. McCallum, in "The Pieces of Politics", Macmillan.
>> 
>
>A little surprised, but glad to see such evaluation from a young revolutionary
>to a veteran revolutionary.
>
>A lesson to all from the tragedy of Zhou may be an old saying:
>
>Sang Zei Chuan Young Yi Xia Zei Chuan Nan (easy to get on board a gangster's boat,
>                                            but difficult to get off)
>
>The reason, as CCP GaoGan Mr. Yuan Geng told HK reporters,
>
>Ren Zai Jiang Hu, Sheng Bu you Ji (after getting on board, none is controlled
>                                              by him/herself)
>
>By chance, according to Madam Jiang Song MeiLin, Deng YinChao told her almost
>exactly the same in ChongQin.

true.  No matter what people think of Zhou, good or bad, I doubt anyone
, even the greatest man in history, can perform any better in his shoes.  

>-- 
>The SOS China Education Fund is a non-political, non-profit and independent
>organization to raise money promoting the education in rural China. All donations
>are tax-deductable. Make checks or money orders payable to: "SOS China Education
>Fund"; c/o Jie KANG, 2610 E. 5th Pl, Apt. 1, Tulsa, OK74104, USA.
From: bhe@.cs.pitt.edu.cs.pitt.edu (Bohr He)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Re: IBM's Hiring Policy, Info needed
Date: 20 Nov 92 17:28:12 GMT
Organization: Univ. of Pittsburgh Computer Science
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL3

: 
: That is NOT true.  IBM and just about every large companies hire many immigrants
: of all nationalities.  I personally worked for IBM for more than twelve years
: right after graduated from graduate school.  I have friends in many large
: companies.  Many of them are Chinese from mainland, Taiwan, Hong Kong, and 
: many other countries.  It is not more difficult for PRC citizens to find jobs
: in this country at all.  It is just bad time to find any job for anyone.  I know

I was confused by this infor.  I got a interview with IBM, Rochester last
summer.  Everything went fine until they found that I was a student on F-1
visa.  They sent me back without the scheduled further interviews.  This
was my personal experience.  My conclusion was at least, IBM-Rochester
didn't hire foreigners.

I don't know if this is gernally true or not.  More inputs on this issue 
would be appreciated.
From: wdrew@iat.holonet.net (Walter H. Drew)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Kuomintang Conscription Policy in 1930s
Date: 22 Nov 92 13:59:37 GMT
Organization: HoloNet (BBS: 510-704-1058)

I apologize for the previous defective posts of this message, which showed
the header but no text. Here is the text.

During the Japanese invasion of China (specifically Shanghai) in the 1930s
would an Amerasian have been subject to being drafted into the Chinese
Army? If so, would he have been exempted from service if he were rich or a
scholar?

A friend of mine is writing a novel and wants to be correct on this point.
KuominKuo
From: lix@thames.bu.edu (Xiaowen Li)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Re: Political Prostitutes or Democractic Activitists  ?
Date: 18 Nov 92 14:04:13 GMT
Organization: Boston University

In article <1992Nov18.095310.17907@bradford.ac.uk> H.Wang@bradford.ac.uk (H WANG) writes:
<(deleted)
<In this case, could you post the name of at least one such person
<who has been accused of being a counter-revolutionary solely due
<to his/her bussiness activity? Then we can start some serious 
<disccusion. 
<
<Or your posting could be regarded as a perfect example of on what
<ridiculous bases people pushing forward CMFN with a blind haste.

This is not to me. But I'd like to help. Mr. Chen ZiMing was accused
and now in jail, solely because of his bussiness activity. So please
start your serious discussion.
-- 
The SOS China Education Fund is a non-political, non-profit and independent
organization to raise money promoting the education in rural China. All donations
are tax-deductable. Make checks or money orders payable to: "SOS China Education
Fund"; c/o Jie KANG, 2610 E. 5th Pl, Apt. 1, Tulsa, OK74104, USA.