HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: agapow@latcs1.lat.oz.au (Paul Michael Agapow)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: HUGO Awards?
Date: 14 Sep 92 02:55:51 GMT
Organization: Comp Sci, La Trobe Uni, Australia

dstein@rhea.math.ucla.edu (David Stein) writes:
>Paul Michael Agapow writes:
>
>|> Glad to see i'm not the only one irritated by the Landis win. This is not
>|> to say that Landis can't produce good work but, Oh Lord, "Walk in the Sun"
>|> wasn't one of them. There must have been better contenders this year if
>|> people insisted on "hard sf" - i could pick up Years Best and find at
>|> least 3 in minutes.
>
>   "Gene Wars" by Paul McAuley, "Living Will" by A. Jablokov, 
>   "Pogrom" by J.P. Kelly, "FOAM" by Brian W. Aldiss, and even
>   "Blood Sisters" and "The Moat" by G. Egan or "Skinner's Room"
>   by William Gibson.
>
>   Now not all are very `hard', and some may be short novellettes, 
>   but all are straight sf and non is as flawed as "Walk in the Sun".

David has cogently illustrated my argument. BTW, for us in the antipodes, how
_does_ a story (or whatever) get shortlisted for the Hugo?

Examining the results of the ESF vote, i find that my vote was almost the
opposite of the results. Puzzled (i can't believe my tastes are _that_
divergent from the norm) i looked closer. A few comments come to mind.

Generally, the more "traditional" sf elements, the better a story did.
Rockets, computers, science etc. This causes me to wonder if the last 20
years in SF has really changed things all that much.

The rejection of John Kessel's "Buffalo" i found astounding. Perhaps as
the son of a migrant Polack, and as one weaned on HG Wells, the icons of
the story were much more powerful to me. The rejection of "Buffalo" as
non-sf i find mysterious - at the least, it is an alternative history
story.

"Press Ann" was very amusing, but slight. In fact, emphemeral would be a
better description. Is this really what we are looking for in an award?

"Morning with Jackals" was ... well, yet another Kirinyaga story. i don't
know how it might of read to someone who hasn't read the others. Myself, i
found it a minor addition to the stable and became a little irritated with
what i percieved as a formula Kirinyaga plot : Western and native values
collide. Westerners become exasperated and distressed. Natives meet this
with great serenity. Natives win big.

"Solstice" struck me as overwritten, but this may be my taste. i suspect
this picked up a lot of votes from people who may not have liked it so
much, but who disliked the alternatives even more.

"Dogs Life" and its resounding put down were also possibly due to taste as
well. i thought it suceeded more than "Press Ann" both comically and as a
work of substance.

Sigh.

p-m


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
paul-michael agapow (agapow@latcs1.oz.au) Machine Intelligence Lab, LaTrobe Uni

        "Teenage sex, nuclear winter, Junior Miss fashion 
               & the mechanics of emotional capitalism ..."
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: xtifr@netcom.com (Chris Waters)
Subject: Re: SNOW CRASH by Neal Stephenson
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 92 16:43:28 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 

In <1992Sep10.194345.10146@newshost.unh.edu> clc@kepler.unh.edu (Christian L Claiborn) writes:

>In article <MJB.92Sep10165802@oak5.doc.ic.ac.uk> mjb@doc.ic.ac.uk (Matthew J Brown) writes:

>>Come on. Gibson's works have their flaws - and they are major - but
>>there was more to them than that. He could do powerful, atmospheric
>>description, and his imagination was in the right place.

>The description was pretty cliched, IMHO.  I found most of his settings and 
>plots incredibly derivative of "Blade Runner" and psycho "Dr. Who" episodes.

Which is no doubt why Gibson was so shocked (and perhaps slightly
dismayed) when he saw Blade Runner.  He had a book he was just
finishing, and here was this movie that was incredibly similar.

This is not a case of plagiarism, this is a case of simultaneous
development.  I won't comment about the Dr. Who reference, except to
point out that it was never all that popular, and there's a good chance
that Gibson never saw it.  I'm a long-time SF fan, and I found the show
tedious.  Gibson is, from all reports, not much of an SF fan, so it's
even more likely that he ignored the show, if he'd even heard of it.

>I mean- do the descriptions of Chiba City in "Neuromancer" or those of even
>modern-day settings in "Burning Chrome" have anything in them you can't get
>anywhere else?  Pretty hackneyed.  His retelling of these isn't bad, but

Well, since Gibson is one of the most imitated authors around today,
it's not surprising that you find Gibson's work to be similar to others.
The real question is:  just who is it who is hackneyed, and who is it
who is doing the retelling?

Not that I'm a hard-core Gibson fan or anything, but I think that he
*should* get credit for what he did, rather than be dismissed as being
derivative of the works that are, for the most part, derivative of him!
-- 
Chris Waters    | the insane don't | NOBODY for President!
xtifr@netcom.COM| need disclaimers | Because Nobody's perfect!!
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: kaufman@eecs.nwu.edu (Michael L. Kaufman)
Subject: Re: _Oracle_, by Mike Resnick (no spoilers!)
Organization: EECS Department, Northwestern University
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 17:43:39 GMT

lairdb@crash.cts.com (Laird P. Broadfield) writes:
>The Soothsayer (the character) is basically the same gimmick as the Teela
>Brown gene.  Realized in a different way, but the same net effect.  

>Anybody else have the same feeling?

Not me. I actually think that they are as different as they can possibly be
given the fact that they both have "talents" that effect events. I am not sure
what you mean by "net effect", but the whole plot of _Ringworld Engineers_
hinged on the fact that Teela didn't have the power to make the situation
she wanted come about, since that would have caused her harm. Looking at
_Soothsayer_ can you imagine Teela getting (or remaining) traped in that way?

Michael


-- 
Michael Kaufman | I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on
 kaufman        | fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in
  @eecs.nwu.edu | the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be
                | lost in time - like tears in rain. Time to die.     Roy Batty 
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: puckett@lambda.msfc.nasa.gov (Jim Puckett)
Subject: Re: Dreamer Fithp
Organization: NASA/MSFC
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 13:15:44 GMT

ecmtwhk@ccu1.aukuni.ac.nz (Thomas Koenig) writes:
<stuff deleted>
>correctly). I'm also reasonably sure that Niven has Tuckerized himself
>into that novel, but I don't remember who he was.

Didn't Wade Curtis have a partner? The one who brought the reporter to
town...Niven not only Tuckerized himself in, he made himself a hero!

jim p.

-- 
Jim Puckett    NTI    puckett@freedom.msfc.nasa.gov     
Huntsville,AL (205)461-4922  
This life is a test. It is only a test. If it had been a real life, you 
would have been given instructions....
From: steyn@cs.rochester.edu (Gavin Steyn)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Piers Anthony/ Good writing
Date: 15 Sep 92 02:03:52 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Computer Science Department University of Rochester


Just a thought that may ease a bit of friction (or cause more, who knows :-) ).

  Just because some of us say Piers Anthony writes dumb books doesn't mean
we think others are stupid for reading them.  I think all of us relax with
a "guilty pleasure" once in a while, and recognize it as such.  Personally,
Anthony's leaden ear for the English language pushes him over the edge of
unreadability for me, but then again, I've read most all of Jack Chalker's
works, and he's committed about as many sins against the language as Anthony.
They're just in directions that bother me less.  I still don't get upset when
someone calls him a hack--I think he's one myself...

  As for this good writing thing, I think that there are standards for good
writing (which is why there are a number of classics).  But, there aren't
any real hard and fast rules--a good work combines characterization, setting,
coherence, beautiful writing, and a few other elements in some proportion.
Now, for any of those elements, or probably most combinations thereof, we
can find an acknowledged masterpiece that lacks them.  However, it'll
usually make up the lack in some other category.  And then the works that
fall somewhere in the middle tend to have people disagreeing whether the
loss of some elements is made up for enough by the presence of others.

  Obviously, there's a lot of subjectivity--I don't want to sound like that
book in that Robin Williams movie whose name I forget--"we can measure poetry
on two scales etc." :-).  But, for example, I doubt anyone would seriously
argue that Anthony is a better writer than, say, Shakespeare or Twain
(and if you're tempted, then grow up).  But there are people who argue Dickens
was great, and others who'd take the opposite view--it depends whether they
feel his characters overcome the melodrama he puts them in, and how much they
feel his occasionally gem-like prose outweighs his occasionally ponderous
prose.  But I don't think even the people who dislike Dickens would argue
that he's a better writer than Chalker.  (These examples chosen deliberately--
I don't read Dickens when I can avoid it, and do read Chalker.  Doesn't mean
I don't recognize Dickens as the superior writer.)

Gavin Steyn
steyn@cs.rochester.edu
"So he's had the lifelong ambition of reversing the polarity of the earth?"
From: mweinste@pearl.tufts.edu
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Piers Anthony
Keywords: Anthony
Date: 13 Sep 92 19:18:37 GMT
Organization: Tufts University - Medford, MA

Is anyone out there a Piers Anthony fan?  I prefer his fantasy to his
sci-fi, but that's because I generally like the fantasy genre better.
I've read all of the Xanth books, the Apprentice Adept books, the
Incarnations series, and Firefly (perhaps his best yet!).  Every one
of his books is fun, impossible to put down, and filled with excitement.
Anyone who hasn't had the pleasure of reading Anthony should pick up one
of his books... let me know if you are interested, I can make some 
recommendations.  If you are already an Anthony fan, leave me a reply
and we can compare notes.

-----> Max
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: rhiann@milton.u.washington.edu (Sandra Hereld)
Subject: Re: HUGO Awards?
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 20:39:08 GMT

In article <18j62kINNkkj@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> ca572@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark L. Stackpole) writes:
>
>Hugo Winners - 1992
>
>NOVEL - Bujold - _Barrayar_ (Baen)
>NOVELLA - Kress - "Beggars in Spain"
>NOVELLET - Asimov - "Gold"
>SHORT STORY - Landis - "A Walk in the Sun"
>
>I couldn't stand the book which Bujold won the Hugo for in 1989
>(_Falling Free_). In fact that book single-handedly (or quadrup-
>pled-handedly) cured me of any illusions that fen voting =
>value & worth. 
>

I think that Falling Free is Bujold's weakest word myself; don't let
it stop you from trying another.  She said she wrote it as an homage
to her father, and I think that got in her way.

Barrayar is a *much* better book.

Sandy
"Not tonight, dear.  I'm reading...."
From: kers@hplb.hpl.hp.com (Chris Dollin)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Re: Good writing (was Re: Piers Anthony)
Date: 15 Sep 92 07:28:22 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Laboratories, Bristol, UK.

In article ... dpn2@po.CWRU.Edu (Damien P. Neil) writes:

   In a previous article, djdaneh@pbhyc.PacBell.COM (Dan'l DanehyOakes) says:

   >How about:  "Good writing (in fiction) is writing which communicates 
   >effectively, entertains, and does not insult the reader's intelligence."
   >
   >Go ahead, shoot it down, folks. . .

   You asked for it... :-)

   If there is an author who is liked by many and hated by many, is his
   writing good or bad? 

Who knows? Ask the definition, don't run a popularity contest.

   At what point is writing "insulting the reader's intelligence?" Most 
   children's books would "insult" my intelligence, but they may be fine for
   children. 

And here I think you insult children. No, really, a good childrens book won't
insult an adults intelligence -- not in the way Dan'l (was it Dan'l? Whoever
gave three reasons why P.A. wans't a good writer) discussed. Admittedly some
developments may be obvious to the adult reader, but the writer doesn't
necessarily beat you about the head with them.

Perhaps I'm just explaining my criteria for a good childrens book in terms
other than ``Anything by Dianna Wynne Jones'' ...

   There are even stories that don't communicate effectively, but are still 
   good. Isn't that the definition of surrealistic, almost?

I find such a story hard to imagine -- it didn't communicate effectively (to
me), *and* it was (I though) good? Nar. Perhaps some examples.

Dan'ls definition gets one of the many bullseyes, in my view.

--

Regards,    | "If taking devious pains was a sign of laziness, he was quite
Kers.       | prepared to call Hazelton the laziest man alive." Blish (m-o-l)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: g92k4260@ru.ac.za (Bryan Kilian)
Subject: Re: Heinlein stories ?
Reply-To: csbk@alpha.ru.ac.za
Organization: Rhodes University, Grahamstown, South Africa
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5
Distribution: na
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 10:19:57 GMT

Doug Dawson (dddawson@lpl.arizona.edu) wrote:

>  'Time For The Stars', I think, or very close to it.

Yep that's it. It's still in print too.
(At least here it is... I just bought it )

Bryan

/////////////////////////: csbk@alpha.ru.ac.za ://////////////////////////
// Bryan Kilian        // This universe never did make sense, I suspect //
// Rhodes University   // that it was built on government contract.     //
// South Africa        //                            - R. A. Heinlein   //
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
   Disclaimer: This message is a product of my own warped imagination
From: Fritz.Niespodziany@p4.f41.n2403.z2.fidonet.org (Fritz Niespodziany)
Sender: postmaster@p2.f41.n2403.z2.fidonet.org
From: djdaneh@pbhyc.PacBell.COM (Dan'l DanehyOakes)
Subject: Good writing (was Re: Piers Anthony)
Reply-To: djdaneh@PacBell.COM (Dan'l DanehyOakes)
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 21:06:19 GMT

In article <192i6fINN808@agate.berkeley.edu> curtis@cs.berkeley.edu (Curtis Yarvin) writes:

>If we're to get anywhere in this argument, we'd best have a definition of
>"good" and "bad" writing.

How about:  "Good writing (in fiction) is writing which communicates 
effectively, entertains, and does not insult the reader's intelligence."

Go ahead, shoot it down, folks. . .


		The Pavlov dog and the Schroedinger cat
		Side by side in my forebrain sat
		With Shakespeare's monkeys crowding in behind. . .
		. . . it's all in your mind.
			-- Visual Purple

Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, Net.Roach
My opinions do NOT represent Pacific Bell,
Professional Development, or anyone else.
But I'm willing to share.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: puckett@lambda.msfc.nasa.gov (Jim Puckett)
Subject: Re: Ya can't keep 'em down!
Keywords: Heinlein, Conspiracies, JFK, Armenians, Atlantis
Organization: NASA/MSFC
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 16:51:36 GMT

clc@kepler.unh.edu (Christian L Claiborn) writes:


>_Man Who Sold the Moon_.

>I like one of those stories.  Can't remember which.  It was delightfully 
>anti-feminist.

Would that be 'Delilah and the Space-Rigger?'

Wait a minute - that can't be it, as the resolution to _that_ story was
to co-ed the space construction workers...

which 'un, then?

jim p.
-- 
Jim Puckett    NTI    puckett@freedom.msfc.nasa.gov     
Huntsville,AL (205)461-4922  
i need to ask myself.....
***********         Would I rather be right, or happy?         ***********
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,rec.arts.sf.science,sci.bio
From: ins894r@aurora.cc.monash.edu.au (Aaron Wigley [Wigs])
Subject: Re: Are the Moties us?
Organization: Monash University
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 06:01:30 GMT

Ronald Kunenborg (rkunenbo@cs.ruu.nl) wrote:
: As for a phobia for guns, I couldn't tell. Guns are glorified everyday on
: television. Cars are considered the ultimate expression of freedom. A phobia
: could well be culturally inhibited from developing. If, on the other hand,
: guns were constantly portrayed as to be feared, and phobia for guns was
: considered "normal", I think we'd see a large increase in "gun-phobia" (anyone
: know the latin version of this? :)).

Last Tuesday I volunteered as a subject for a psychology experiment, 
the aim of which was to determine if phobias are genetically based, 
or culturally based. How this is aimed to be achieved is to determine
and compair people's phobic reactions to both things like snakes etc, 
and modern items like guns (it seems there are a lot of gun-phobic people
around). 

The experiments are still continuing, and I don't know when a result
is pending, but if people like, I could ask the researcher to contribute
to this thread :-)

The Wigs of Oz, who is not phobic of guns, nor snakes,
Aaron Wigley 
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: barrus@oak.egr.uh.edu (Karl L. Barrus)
Subject: Re: David Gemmel
Organization: University of Houston
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 23:13:08 GMT

>cwes1@cs.aukuni.ac.nz (Clare West) writes:
>I guess he doesn't have a very high profile in America or else readers
>of this group think him beneath them.

>ecmtwhk@ccu1.aukuni.ac.nz (Thomas Koenig)
>Probably the "Iain Banks" syndrome - unless somebody actually brings out
>the books in the US, hardly anybody on the net is going to take notice...

I can at least verify that Gemmel isn't published in the Houston area...or  
I'm having extremely bad luck finding his novels or the bookstores here  
just don't stock his work.  After reading the praised heaped upon him, I'm  
about ready to special order one or two.  Any suggestions/recommendations?
--
/-----------------------------------\
| Karl L. Barrus                    |
| barrus@tree.egr.uh.edu (NeXTMail) |
| elee7h5@jetson.uh.edu             |
\-----------------------------------/
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: betsyp@apollo.hp.com (Betsy Perry)
Subject: Duane: Death in the Offing?
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 19:44:17 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Corporation, Chelmsford, MA

                                    
Dani suggests that Segnbora is pregnant with Freelorn's
heir.  This is an interesting solution, but it violates
two previous axioms:

(1) Segnbora has vowed never to have children, because subjecting
    them to the mdaha wouldn't be fair.  

(2) Segnbora is supposed to be "The last of the <family name>"  
    (Remember -- the <family name> line will be lucky until
     the last of the line takes her own life.)

Duane can work around problem (1) by having S. change her mind.
Problem (2) is a little trickier, but I suppose if her child is
Arlen's heir, then it isn't properly a <family name>, so Segnbora
could still be The Last Whatever-She-Is.
              
(By the way, I'm not saying that Dani isn't right, or isn't
working from received information;  I'm just speculating on
the consequences of the information he divulged.)

Freelorn is expendable; Herewiss somewhat less so, although
he's got to die young at the rate he's using up his Green Stamps.

It's about time *somebody* died permanently in the *Door*...
series... the characters were beginning to resemble so many
jack-in-the-boxes.  I far prefer a story set in the *Door*
milieu which appeared in, I think, *Swords against Ice Magic*,
whose heroine was an old sorceress stubbornly conserving her
last Flame to keep herself alive.  P.S.  She got better.


-- 
Betsy Hanes Perry   (note P in userid)     betsyp@apollo.hp.com
Hewlett-Packard Company
"It seems to us that the readers who want fiction to be like life are
considerably outnumbered by those who would like life to be like fiction."
From: TJS107@psuvm.psu.edu (Sime)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: John Steakly (sp?) books
Date: 10 Sep 92 22:38:58 GMT
Organization: Penn State University

I have read Armor and thought it was amazing.  Any comments? (see below first)

Anyone ever read Vampires?  I was thinking about getting it.  It has Jack Crow
from Armor in it.  I liked the parts in Armor better with Felix than Mr. Crow,
but Vampires still looks pretty good.  Sorta SF Steven King, in a way.


(Please don't give me the "Armor is a rip off of Starship Troopers" line. I've
 read both and if it's supposed to be one of RH's best, I'm dissappointed.
 It's boring as balls.  There's only about 2 chapters max. of combat.  The
 rest of it is the guy taking classes about political bullsquat. Hey, I do that
 in real life, I don't need to read a book about it.  Armor was non-stop
 action for the first 80 or so pages, then picks up again in the last quarter
 or so of it.  However, I will admit that it's just about a remake of ST.
 And to me this is one of those times when the remake blows the original away.)

Sime Sime everywhere a Sime...
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: sef@kithrup.COM (Sean Eric Fagan)
Subject: Re: Fourth Giants book out
Organization: Kithrup Enterprises, Ltd.
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1992 02:59:57 GMT

In article <1992Sep11.152242.4062@desire.wright.edu> demon@desire.wright.edu (Stupendous Man) writes:
>	I take it the is Hogan's entry in the virtual worlds genre?

I guess this counts as a spoiler.

No, he already had virtual reality in his previous books.  Instead, he has
the inside of a computer taking a reality of its own, and being the
"entoverse."  Note that I *mean* the inside of the computer, *not* something
*simulated* *by* the computer.

-- 
Sean Eric Fagan  | "You can't get lost in one room, no matter how
sef@kithrup.COM  |  little effort you make to learn your way around."
-----------------+    -- William E Davidsen (william@crd.GE.COM)
Any opinions expressed are my own, and generally unpopular with others.
From: joel@upchrch.UUCP (Joel Upchurch  )
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: eric frank russell
Keywords: books
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 92 15:07:16 EDT
Organization: Upchurch Computer Consulting, Orlando FL

10726446@eng2.eng.monash.edu.au (LAU WAI KUEN) writes:

>   Yo!  Does anyone know if the book 'Next of Kin' by Eric Frank Russell
> is still in print.  A friend swears the book is brilliant, but I can't
> find the damn thing _anywhere_.  It's beginning to get on my nerves,
> and I've got a feeling the book is out of print (since E.F.R. is
> dead and not that well known).

My copy is April 86 from Ballantine Books ISBN 0-345-32761-6. Give them
a call and see if it's still in print. 'Next of Kin' is okay, but I
actually liked the 'The Space Willies', which is a shorter version better.

My favorite EFR book is 'Wasp'.

(If your mail bounces use the address below.)
Joel Upchurch/Upchurch Computer Consulting/718 Galsworthy/Orlando, FL 32809
joel@peora.ccur.com {uiucuxc,hoptoad,petsd,ucf-cs}!peora!joel (407) 859-0982