HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: smithmc@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Lost Boy)
Subject: Re: Scummy behavior of pagan males
Organization: Purdue University Computing Center
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1992 20:00:25 GMT

In article <11190044@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM> wells@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (John Wells) writes:
>In alt.pagan, kumagic@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu (Stephen R. Figgins) writes:
>
>> Some examples within and without the community.
>> 
>> A prominent pagan couple announced their divorce this year.  Reasons
>> given, their relationship for the last few years had become physically
>> abusive, arguments culminating with him beating up her. 
>
>SO?
>
>  Humanity often sucks in general when it comes to relationships.  I have 
>met very few 'happy couples'.  The majority of relationships are based on 
>one person supporting the other or feeling sorry for the other and wanting
>to help.  This is what is called in 'pop psychology' as CO-DEPENDANCY.  While
>a little of this will go on in a healthy relationship... in a growing number
>of folks that I know, this is becomming a sick mode of operation.  
>
>  The most overt form of co-dependancy is the person who marries an alchie
>or druggie and puts up with years of hell and abuse because they can't let
>go for fear of hurting the others feelings or because 'no one will ever love
>me again'.   Other less overt forms are the mental and physical abusers.
> 
>  I lost a very close freind to the insanity of this sickness (3 years ago)
>her ex went to her house in the mountains and killed her.  Just reciently 
>(about 4 months ago) A person who I had met only breifly was sitting in a 
>meeting when her ex of 1 year burst in and drug her out to the parking lot
>and killed her.   These aren't inbread mutants that are doing these things,
>they are so called normnal people that have been fed so much crap by our
>white man's society that murder and abuse are tolerated. , (GOD forbid we 
>should see somebody walking around naked,  but it is OK to show Rambo 
>blowing away commies on the Sunday evening moovie).

And what are we going to do about it?

The only thing I can think of is that I am a prime candidate for this sort
of relationship. I have heard again and again  about the problem and I have
no idea what the cure is. Is most of humanity doomed to this by nurture,
unable to ever come out of this cycle, or is there really a solution to this
that the induvidual can use to cure him/herself?

>  This can be (and is) a very mentally sick world. 

You have my full agreement there. Would you be Buddhist-type, perchance?

Lost Boy


Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: ag055@yfn.ysu.edu (Ward Chanley)
Subject: Re: Zsuzsanna E. Budapest
Organization: Youngstown State University/Youngstown Free-Net
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1992 04:15:15 GMT


Re: Grandmother of Time & Grandmother Moon

Z is one of my FAVORITE authors.  She
was the first Craft author I read who
said that Goddess religion actively
celebrated homosexual sex as being
just as valid, just as creative and
just as necesarry as heterosex.  Did
my Queer heart some good to read it.

Grandmother Moon is probably the 
easier book to start off with, but
maybe that's just me: I got Moon first
and Grandmother of Time after and am
perhaps simply more famillair with the
first.  ANYway, "Moon" gave me lots 
and lots of stuff to use for Esbat 
circles (we use the Charges that open
each of the chapters as an alternative
to the traditional "Charge of the 
Goddess" at Esbat for that month), and
the spells all deal with emotions and
states of being.  The spells in "Time"
are the more traditional "how to get
what you want in the material plane"
kind of Witchcraft (which is just as
valid, don't get me wrong).  In "Moon"
the spells are all about relating to
a particular emotion: how to get it,
how to use it, or if it's unwanted, how
to release it...

One of my favorites is the spell to 
release shame, in the Eighth Lunation
which starts out "I forgive myself
for being a woman/I celebrate myself
for being a woman", which, when it
went into my shadows got changed to
"I forgive myself for being a Gay man/
I celebrate myself for being a Gay man"

Anyway, I'm rambli
ng...

Blessed be
Ward
-- 
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe)
Subject: Re: A NEW "BEWITCHED"
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 02:54:55 GMT


I LIKE Bewitched!  So does the Senior member of our Community.  Remember, the
word witch is much older than Wicca.  Capital-W Witches are a recent phenomonen,
after all.  If we are so bloody intolerant that we can't cope with a sit-com,
we are no better off than Christian fundies.  The Charge does say "mirth and
reverence" after all.

                --the Endora Wanna-be ;-D


              Merry meet, merry part, merry meet again,
                               Br'anArthur

Queer, Peculiar, and Wyrd! :-)

******************************************************************************
Newage is hypoallergenic spirituality--
it's for people who are allergic to the word religion.
                                   --Jon Jay Obermark
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio)
Subject: Re: Guns & self defense
Organization: Western Washington University
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 03:06:48 GMT



 ksm@abb-sc.abb-sc.com (Ashley) writes:

>gharlane@nextnet.csus.edu  (Gharlane of Eddore) writes...
>> Don't count on it.   On at least a couple occasions in my life, I
>> stayed alive solely because I happened to be carrying a semi-automatic 
>> pistol and be competent in its use.  When you're faced with a GROUP
>> of armed scum, unless you're as fast as greased lightning, a 
>> revolver simply won't do the job.   If I hadn't been carrying a 
>> nice old Model 1911A-1 Colt, I'd have gotten killed. 

>	You have made a very effective argument for being armed, but I noticed 
>something that was missing. Most of the situations you describe are avoidable.

I read his post again and did not see any avoidable situations listed.

I figured maybe he is a regular poster and the situations you refered
to are in an older post of his?   What are the avoidable situations 
described by him that you are refering to?

Thanks,
Jim
From: dhardin@bbn.com (Dawn Hardin)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Help for a friend
Date: 20 Nov 92 21:10:48 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Host: bbn.com

In article <1992Nov19.181056.28242@news.cs.brandeis.edu>, st923058@pip.cc.brandeis.edu (Jessica Raine) writes:

> 	I have a friend who asked me about help for a co-worker of his. This
> co-worker met a woman, at a bar I think, and they exchanged numbers. The
> woman is a Wiccan priestess, according to D (my friend). D's friend decided
> he didn't want to see the woman again. (Nothing to do with her being Wiccan,
> he just wasn't interested.) The woman had other ideas. She's pursuing him.
> Some specific instances: D's co-worker had a nasty dream that the woman's
> face appeared on his beeper, threatening him...five minutes after he woke
> up, terrified, he got a message from her on his beeper telling him to call
> her. A little while ago, while the co-worker was in Ireland, the woman
> showed up at the place where D and the co-worker work. She was responding
> to an ad that the office had placed in the Globe--they were hiring people.
> D says that his computer stopped working as soon as she entered the
> office. He (D) has been, in the past, what he calls a "weirdness magnet",
> and past experience has taught me that there are, in fact, people who
> attract magical activity and have the ability to sense it.
> 	Thoughts/comments/ideas? D's not real worried for himself, but he's
> afraid for his co-worker. He'd like to know what she (the priestess) can "do"
> to either D or his co-worker, and what they can expect.

I've always felt very strongly that people who are unstable enough to 
behave in this way are not stable enough to wield any real power.  Real
power comes from knowledge of yourself and the world around you -- if
she's so clueless that she's going to chase a man like this, then the 
only power she has is in her mind and in the minds of people who she can
con into fearing her.  Your friend and his co-worker need a heavy dose
of skepticism and a light dose of paranoia.  And two doses of calm.

The dream can be explained by thinking that the beeper went off when he
was asleep and so his dream explained the sound without waking him up.
Happens to me with my alarm clock all the time, much to my chagrin.
If her entering the office made D nervous, then he could have easily hit
a nasty key combination accidently.

Even to wiccans, this is the Real World and not a D&D game.  The only
curse that she can put on him is to make him uncomfortable and nervous.
Or, of course, she could pull out a gun and shoot him if she's that 
unstable.  Unless he's really harmed her or she has some really good
reason to be harassing him like this, I really doubt she's going to 
raise any real power.  It's just not that easy, no matter what kind of
priestess she calls herself.

> "All the cute ones are mutants..."--?

Yeah.  Aren't mutants adorable?  (Sappy smile...)

Dawn

Joseph Campbell gave me hope and now I have been saved.
"Folk Song" by Bongwater
From: popec@korova.freeside.com (Mr. Charlie)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Pagan Belief revisited
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 92 16:47:14 CST
Organization: VHF void tube of the mind (713) 492-2783

cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese) writes:

> In article <1992Nov19.191319.25227@radian.uucp> markbr%radian@natinst.com (ma
> >In article <2B0B2FA3.305@news.service.uci.edu> cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Jani
> ><snip>
> >>specifically Hindu ones.  What is the opinion of Hinduism on the
> >>mind/body duality?  Are the considered separate, and is the feeding and
> >>care of one preferred over the other?  I ask because I know a woman who
> >>works at Unex here at UCI who is a Hare Krishna (I may be using this
> >>term incorrectly strictly speaking, and if so I apologize; this is the
> >>general way the term is used in the US.  If there is a more proper way,
> >>feel free to tell me).  Her opinion is that the mind must be fed and
> >>that feeding of sensation is not a good thing -- again, a mind/body
> >>split with which I disagree.  I was wondering what general Hinduism says
> >>about this.
> >
> >Yay! Another person who thinks "mind-body" dualism is bunk! 
> >
> >But, Janis, what does this make us, monolists? Or should that be ...monolith
> 
> Dunno -- how about "intergrated?"  "Connected?"  "Wholists (as oppsed to
> "holists")?"  Now that I think about it, "body/mind holists" sounds
> okay.
> 
> Blessings where you can find them,
> Janis
> 
> 


The word you all are looking for is monist.  (Though there are several 
subtly different versions of monism.)  Science today is officially monist 
as to the mind/body problem.  I.E. there is one substance, that is 
matter.  Also realism is usually dragged into the discussion somewhere 
along this point.

Pope Charles   Subgenius Pope of Houston.  Slack!

**************************************************************************
        the official "i CANT BELIEVE its not a REAL POLITICIAN!!"
                                headquarters
me@korova.freeside.com  *this human form/where i wuz born/ yep yep*
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: banerjee@titan.trl.OZ.AU (Arindam Banerjee)
Subject: Re: How the hell can religion and action not be related?
Organization: Telecom Research Labs, Melbourne, Australia
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 02:27:38 GMT

> 
> Religious motivation can be very powerful in directing the efforts of a large
> group of people, but I am unaware of any case INSIDE the Christian or
> Islamic fold where a conquest was undertaken on purely religious grounds!
> The Christians, Muslims, and Jews were also conquering for primarily mundane
> reasons.  The major difference with Buddism is that these three religions
> (as well as the religion of the Vikings) allowed conquest of the infidels
> and glorified battle, which Buddism did not do.

The process of conquest involves murder, rape, destruction leading to
slavery of the conquered. To conquer on a sustained, organised, even
happy basis, one must have some kind of spiritual sustenance.
It is nice, therefore to have your religion tell you that no matter what
you do, your sins will be forgiven and that you will reach heaven. It is
better to have your religion telling you that you are doing absolutely
the best possible thing when you conquer people who elect not to share
your religious belief.
Perhaps unfortunately for us Hindus and Buddhists, we believe in the law
of karma, which is a kind of conservation law, meaning that for the evil
and trouble you cause, somehow, someday, you will have to pay. Of
course, you also earn plus points for doing good, and the best thing
which can happen to you is never to be born again on this miserable
world where existence for any person with decent sensibilities amounts to
suffering.  
Because of this law of karma, India's many and wide conquests were
purely cultural and not military. 
And because they were cultural, even today memories of fond past
interaction remain in all Eastern people who deeply sympathise with
India's many problems.

 
 What little we know of the old pagan traditions of Europe is consistent with
 
> many warlike tribes, but having no philosophical goal of spreading the
> religion or converting the unbelievers.  I think this distinction may be
> what "Loki" and Gil were trying to communicate.
> 
> 				- - Steve
> 				boylan@ljohub.enet.dec.co

I have tried to show that without knowledge of the law of karma
barbarians can do as much damage as believers. Genghis Khan is the
supreme example.

Arindam Banerjee 
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: ag055@yfn.ysu.edu (Ward Chanley)
Subject: Re: Women and Men Witches
Organization: Youngstown State University/Youngstown Free-Net
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1992 03:22:25 GMT


tle harder on our side.  Telling
people who've grown up in a patriarchal society to celebrate all values
won't work; their minds are still locked in.  You have to smack them
over the head with alternative possiblities.  You have two millenia's
worth of garbage to haul out -- it must be EXPLICITLY STATED that women
have been devalued and that women and the values that have been
associated with them must be paid more attention.  
-----

Ultimately, I want more than just 
"attention" paid; I want the entire
culture oriented around those values.
I too, could use "matristic", or one
of Daniel's alternative terms, but 
they aren't as emotionally appealing
to me.

People may misunderstand what it is
I mean when I advocate matriarchy,
but hopefully, they'll just ask me.

BB
Ward
--
From: lib1p@jane.uh.edu (Tammy Stark Blandino)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Who are we kidding?
Date: 20 Nov 1992 18:11 CST
Organization: University of Houston
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: jane.uh.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    

In article <2B0A8245.16232@news.service.uci.edu>, cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese) writes...


post deleted


Yes Janis, you're right.

Makes one sick doesn't it?


Quite a while back I made the same realization.  I got quite sick
about it.  However I have come to accept it.  The Earth Day stuff
kind of reversed that for a while, but......

I remember listening to the republicans at their Convention this
year.  That same old sick feeling came back.  I could taste the
bile rising in my throat.  I had to quite watching.  I just had to.

Luckily Al Gore understands this sick feeling also.  He has 
experienced it.  The fact that 1) We have an environmentalist (I
really did like the term Earthist myself) for a VP and 2) The
people comming into power now were born AFTER Hiroshima gives me
hope. 

Luckily I don't have any kids of my own (yet) to worry about.....

Tammy
From: boylan@sltg04.ljo.dec.com (Steve Boylan)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Care & Feeding of Staves
Date: 17 Nov 92 18:30:39 GMT
Reply-To: boylan@ljohub.enet.dec.com (Steve Boylan)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation


A bit more on "ritual-grade" wood finishes . . .

I did some checking.  Beeswax won't dissolve in linseed oil, but
(as Corun mentioned) you can melt it into the oil if you heat
it (VERY carefully!).

You CAN dissolved beeswax into turpentine (distilled from the
sap of certain kinds of pine trees).  I gather some wood finishers
use this as a polish, but the turpentine will smell awful for a
few days.

Another natural oil that produces a beautiful finish is pure Tung
oil, extracted from nuts, but pure Tung oil is hard to find.
It's kind of a specialized woodworking product.

I hope this helps!

				- - Steve

				boylan@ljohub.enet.dec.com
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: barry@netcom.com (Kenn Barry)
Subject: Re: Who are we kidding?
Organization: QQQCLC
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 06:24:12 GMT

In article <1992Nov19.021352.25696@leela.cs.orst.edu> casspa@atlantis.CS.ORST.EDU (Paul Cass) writes:
>In article <2B0A8245.16232@news.service.uci.edu> cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese) writes:
>>
>>It's finished, people.  We're just not going to change in thirty years,
>>face up to it.
>
>On the off chance that we manage to
>degrade everything back to single celled beings...well, I am not sure
>that the sun has 4.5 billion years to do the whole process again.

	Hey, why don't you and Janis get sandwich boards saying
"Repent! The End of the World is Nigh!" Growing very long beards would
add to the total effect, but I guess Janis can skip that part.

	Best estimates of the Sun's stable future is about 20 billion
years, FYI. It's a real mellow G-type.

						Kayembee
From: dhardin@bbn.com (Dawn Hardin)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Women and Men Witches
Date: 23 Nov 92 18:00:44 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Host: bbn.com

In article <2B0D91C1.17128@news.service.uci.edu>, cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese) writes:
> In article <lgqpn5INNl96@news.bbn.com> dhardin@bbn.com (Dawn Hardin) writes:
> >cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese) writes:
> >
> I do not "want to be on top."  You are completely misreading what I am
> saying.  All I am saying is that we need to beat people over the heads
> with the concept that women are valuable and important human beings for
> a while before it sinks in.  If we don't actively dismantle the current
> paradigm, anything we work to supplant it with is not going to work.
> You can't just say, "Now, let's all play nice," and expect anything to
> be done.  Sure, it would be nice to imagine it, but face it -- it's not
> going to work.  We're going to have to push to say things like, "This
> year is the political year of the woman" and all that shit, or else it's
> just not going to last.

[stuff deleted]

> I'm not fucking talking about
> supplanting ALL white authors' works, but we're going to have to push
> hard for a bit on the side of the underdog before we reach parity.  I
> believe it's called affirmative action.  (Awaiting the flames on THIS
> one.) 

Do you think that passing laws are useful in changing paradigms?  I don't.
Going to jail might just change someone's paradigm, but passing a law saying
that women have to be hired preferentially or treated equally is not going
to change anyone's world view.  World views are hard to change, and I think
that magic or guerrila politics or street theater or beating people over
the head with hard objects works much better than passing laws saying that
a company has to hire x% women in management from now on.  And is much more
fun besides.  

Dawn

Joseph Campbell gave me hope and now I have been saved.
"Folk Song" by Bongwater
From: cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
Subject: Re: Women and Men Witches
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: 21 Nov 92 01:18:49 GMT

In article <1992Nov20.160958.1@fnalno.fnal.gov> holzman@fnalno.fnal.gov (Daniel B. Holzman) writes:
>In article <2B0D3BBB.9755@news.service.uci.edu>, cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu 
>(Janis Maria Cortese) writes:
>> I second this -- it's wonderful.  There's a lot of anger in it, but I
>> detected no HATE directed toward men.  Just anger.  Besides, when she
>> gets going, she can have the deadliest wit I've ever encountered.
>
>Please don't take this as a flame, Janis, but I have found that sometimes it is
>necessary to be the target of hate to be able to distinguish between it and
>anger.  

And of course, I have never been the target of hate, is that what you're
saying? 

>Of course, anger and hate are not mutually exclusive, either.  I find
>her description of her utopia very misandrist.

And I do not.

Blessings,
Janis 

Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: ag055@yfn.ysu.edu (Ward Chanley)
Subject: Re: Women and Men Witches
Organization: Youngstown State University/Youngstown Free-Net
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1992 03:24:45 GMT


Re: Barbara Walker...

I have the "Woman's Encyclopedia of
Myths and Secrets"; I've never thought
of it as "anti-male"; anti-patriarchy
maybe...

BB
Ward
--
From: nadja@jetsun.weitek.COM (Nadja Adolf)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Guns & self defense
Date: 20 Nov 92 03:21:37 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: WEITEK Corporation, Sunnyvale CA

In article <1245@abb-sc.abb-sc.COM> ksm@abb-sc.abb-sc.com (Ashley) writes:
>
>(article deleted)
>
>>Let's start a conversation about how to cure the ills of society. Once we've
>>cured the psychoses and neuroses that make the rapists and murders, once
>>we've abolished the causes of violent crimes, then the rest will take care 
>>of itself. But this continuous bantering about whether a gun is an assault
>>rifle or a hunting rifle and the advantages of one type over another is
>>senseless and futile. Don't ban the guns, ban the uses to which they are put.
>>Greater social consciousness is what's needed, and you can't regulate that
>>with a bunch of laws.
 
I have a problem with this. Ban self-defense? Very Hindu, and not at all
apart of Haudanasanee tradition. 

This bothers me. I would hope that people will do this voluntarily, and
not force their beliefs on others. 

Quite honestly, in the 19th C most of the Peoples were forcibly disarmed
by the government so that whites could rape, rob and kill us without risk 
to themselves. Girls from the Plains Peoples were stolen, raped, and made 
into slaves in cheap Denver brothels. This worked so well that governments
then began to pass the first gun laws to effect other humans. They banned
Blacks and Asians from having weapons so that they too could be raped, 
robbed and murdered more easily by the whites. 

Social consciousness is a nice idea, but it is asking to much trust from
non-whites to be disarmed under a white government. As late as the 1950s
traditional religions were illegal; and the state of Oregon has decided that
members of the Native American Church (a Pan-Native religion) can be denied
employment.
  
-- 
The Earth Pig Bourne....

nadja@node.com (prefered email address)
nadja@weitek.com
From: Steve.Dugas@iphase.infoserv.com (Steve Dugas)
Sender: FredGate@iphase.infoserv.com
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: women and men witches
Date: 19 Nov 92 03:31:00 EST

I have read most of the arguments about matriachy v/s patriarchy, and
 they seem to be at somewhat of a stalemate.  How about trying to
 start a system with a new name like GYLANDRIARCHY  for example?  That
 would breake down as "Gy" for the female, "L" as a link, "ANDR" (as
 in andros) for the male aspect.  This would imply a combining of
 energy without dictating either as being the appropriate "ruler".  Ir
 the current models don't work, make a new one with, hopefully, new
 concepts and modes of conduct.
.
Steve Dugas

 * Origin: U_PAGAN: <<<<<<<<<< RE-ELECT NOBODY! >>>>>>>>>> (1:112/29)

Newsgroups: alt.pagan