HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: muffy@remarque.berkeley.edu (Muffy Barkocy)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Philosophy (was Altruism)
Date: 16 Nov 92 11:14:34
Organization: Natural Language Incorporated
	<BxIHLn.8wM@newcastle.ac.uk>
	<1992Nov16.044921.25977@rat.csc.calpoly.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: remarque.berkeley.edu
In-reply-to: pclary@mushroom.csc.calpoly.edu's message of 16 Nov 92 04:49:21 GMT


In article <1992Nov16.044921.25977@rat.csc.calpoly.edu> pclary@mushroom.csc.calpoly.edu (Ellen Clary) writes:
>[...] but then decided that, while I was interested in 'searching
>for the truth' [whatever that really means] and other common 
>philosophical quests, I wasn't that interested in getting into
>the seemingly testosterone-laden logic fights  ('my logic can beat 
>up your logic' type of thing).  My question to those involved in
>this thread is first: is this your experience? and second: why does
>this happen?  (Muffy, it sounds like your class is going beyond
>western philosopy so maybe you haven't observed it in your class.)

Well, first, yes, my class does not do that...*grin*.  The teacher is
really excellent, btw.  He usually teaches out at San Francisco State,
so anyone out there - if you want to take Philosphy, look for Mike
Lunine as an instructor!  He is a big fan of Gandhi.  The class, besides
being about "conscience" is about how ideas have gone back and forth
between East and West; he definitely doesn't think that Philosophy
begins and ends in the West.

As for why it happens, I have an idea about that (hi, Mike! *grin*).
The first step in teaching people philosophy is generally to give them
at least a brief logic course.  My first two philosophy courses were
logic, which I really enjoyed.  What they don't always do very well is
to point out to people that a) logic is not all there is and b) people
generally do not express their arguments logically, even if those
arguments *could* be expressed logically.  So, a lot of people with one
or two logic classes behind them will rush out and use their new toy to
attack people for their logic (or lack of same), not realizing (or
perhaps caring) that the arguments in question could be restated
logically and then addressed with logic.  I guess it can be kind of fun
to use logic as a weapon rather than a tool, but I think there's a lot
beyond that.  All of my professors have had sufficent experience to
understand that logic is not a goal in itself, but a way to help find
whatever it is you're looking for ("truth," perhaps...*smile*).

One thing that is really fun with logic is to try to restate newspaper
articles as logical discussions.  It's amazing how much they slant them
and how much necessary information they leave out.

Muffy
--

Muffy Barkocy                               muffy@mica.berkeley.edu
~Weavers' fingers flying on the loom/patterns shift too fast to be
 discerned/all these years of thinking/ended up like this/in front
 of all this beauty/understanding nothing~ - Bruce Cockburn
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: eleanor@cbnews.cb.att.com (eleanor.j.evans)
Subject: lovestruck
Organization: AT&T
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 04:05:43 GMT

I'm in love!!  *swoon*  She has brown hair and brown
eyes, and a master's in classic and medieval literature....
And I think she likes me!  But I'm not sure..... oh dear,
oh dear, oh dear..... <wuffles in a pigletish manner....>

And I, of course, was feeling incredibly less than
attractive.  Last week I accidentally chopped my bangs
too short, so I look like a dork.  And then this weekend
I threw my back out carrying all my sister's junk up
2 floors, so I look pathetic (not to mention weak, or 
why else would I have thrown out my back?).  And I had 
to get lost and show up 1/2 an hour late, so I look
incompetent!!  Augh!  Please, can I just start this
day over?!?

Not that I would trade it for a different one--I had a
_wonderful_ time.  And I hope, hope, hope I get to do
it again.

And she's funny, and she's sweet, and she's good with
her hands--she likes power tools!--and she likes old
stuff, and she speaks Latin!  (ok, reads Latin, no one
_really_ speaks Latin)  And we drive the same car!

We closed the restaurant down, talking, and I didn't
want to stop...'cept that I wanted to go home and
curl up with some Midol and a hot water bottle...but
that's another story.

Someone hug me, quick!  Before I pop!  Augh!!!


Piglet, earning her name.....
From: winsor@geek.NoSubdomain.NoDomain (js)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: Really a new post but I don't know how to do it:)
Date: 20 Nov 1992 01:48:58 GMT
Organization: Texas Instruments Incorporated, Austin
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: geek.teng.ppd.ti.com

In article <BxxFsF.MpF@news.udel.edu>, seamus@ravel.udel.edu (James G Dilmore) writes:
|> I am conducting a contest.
|> It is an essay contest.
|> The subject is what masturbation means to you.
|> The winner gets their choice from a box of tissues and a vibrator.
|> (In the interest of Gender Fuck of course):)
|> I thought that I would post it here because you are all so 
|> HUGABLE and FUN.
I'm in!

|> and I will pick a winner with the help of my committe, which I haven't 
|> picked yet, the following week.
Unless, you will let me be on your committe... I *love* reading these kinds of 
things!  Can I?   Or, is it exclusive to people you can sit down with?

*EEEEE-HUGS*
<blantant bribe>
*EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE-GROPES*
js
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: crj10@phx.cam.ac.uk (Clive Jones)
Subject: Re: lovestruck
Telephone-Messages: +44 223 33 4900
Address: Christ's College, Cambridge CB2 3BU, ENGLAND.
Organization: 6am Digital Playground
X-Furry-Character: Gerald_Duck
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 13:02:39 GMT

In article <1992Nov17.040543.6204@cbnews.cb.att.com>, eleanor@cbnews.cb.att.com (eleanor.j.evans) writes:
>
> And she's funny,
> and she's sweet,

Aw... how nice...

> and she's good with her hands

Ooerr...

> she likes power tools!

!?!

> and she likes old stuff, and she speaks Latin!  (ok, reads Latin, no one
> _really_ speaks Latin)

They do, but they do it in a slow, semi-poetic, semi-rhetorical monotone, for
the most part. Either that or they speak it in an inept sing-song voice,
clearly not understanding a word of it, immediately before sitting down to eat
in Formal Hall.

> And we drive the same car!

Er... what happens when you decide to steer in opposite directions?

> Someone hug me, quick!  Before I pop!  Augh!!!

[ Pause... ]  POP!

Ooops - too late. *Hug* anyway, though.
 
--Clive.
From: zen@death.corp.sun.com (d)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: Wanderer Returns
Date: 16 Nov 92 15:42:14
Organization: savage hackers
NNTP-Posting-Host: death.corp.sun.com
In-reply-to: adc@threel.co.uk's message of Thu, 12 Nov 92 09:51:55 +0000


(Tons o' articles I had marked to reply to expired... must be catching,
or something... better get this while it's still around...)

In article <2b02293b@ThreeL.co.uk> adc@threel.co.uk (Alan "D." Culloch) writes:
> We argued
> philosophy over an excellent brunch at the Breakfast Garden in
> Oakland(?) and I got to meet some of the street life around
> Haight-Ashbury on a late-night shopping trip with d, while we discussed
> politics.  BTW, as someone who is usually pretty unforthcoming, I'd say
> that d's skill in probing questioning is at least as good as advertised
> here previously. 

  Don't listen to him -- he's a big talker, if you just give him a
chance (he even tried to tell me he didn't like talking philosophy, and
that's about all we did (well, philosophy and sex, which is all that
counts in this world anyway, eh?)  And who's been spreading these
rumours about me, anyway?  Lies!  Lies, I say!

> After taking leave of Muffy (big hug after marathon phone call) and d
> (first time I've ever been literally swept off my feet for a goodbye
> kiss-n-hug <yum> <swoon> - Fay Wray eat your heart out!)

  *laugh*  As big as I am, I've got nothing on the King.  I just like
sweeping people off their feet.

> I had the great
> good fortune to meet up with our very own Ellen and Coe.

  Amazing people, there... (gratuitous plug for them and their hottub :-))

[mike stuff]
> The closest I (almost) came to direct contact was with someone at
> your office on a Friday afternoon, who said "Mike?  I think he's
> upstairs at a party..."   He he, mlloyd -- party animal!

  Indeed!  His tiny white ass gets around, let me tell you... he was
a terror at our last party... *grin*...

> Thank you everyone, for a great time.  Hope to see you all in
> Edinburgh again soon.

  Isn't worldcon (sci-fi convention) supposed to be out there in a year
or two?  If so, muffy and I might just take you up on that... it seems
like everyone on soc.bi lives over there anyway, eh?  Ya'll should
arrange some kind of massive party around the same time as that
convention... (hint, hint...)

 -- d
From: vashti@concave.cs.wits.ac.za (Vashti Galpin)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: Time (Was: Family Values (long))
Date: 17 Nov 92 10:22:34 GMT
Article-I.D.: concave.vashti.721995754
Organization: definitely none, I checked

(my apologies if this has already appeared, our news server is not behaving)

In <1992Nov10.182057.11203@ultb.isc.rit.edu> kdc5072@ultb.isc.rit.edu (K.D. Colagio) writes:
>Vashti Galpin writes:
>->David Parsons writes:
>->>                ____
>->>  david parsons \bi/ "Purity 45% and falling"
>->>                 \/
>->
>->Why is your purity 45% and falling. I take it that this has something to
>->do with the mysterious purity test. Can anyone tell me what this is?
>->
>Well...since you asked...

>The purity test is a series of questions (much like a test, go figure 8*) )
>which was/is designed to fin out how pure you are.  If you (or anyone else)
>is interested in a copy, send me mail...I have about 15 different
>versions.

Well, I received two copies of the test and now my purity has been
officially tested. It's far too middling, 49%, and seeing I can't
increase it without becoming very forgetful, I'd better decrease it.
But I think the test is biased --- it doesn't cater for people with
overactive imaginations and underactive bodies.

But perhaps if I try all the other tests, I'll get better scores (and a
longer list of things to do :-).

This is going to be my last post for a while, because I really have too
much work to do, and you all are far more attractive than my work. I'll
carry on reading the group when I can find the time. Mail is most
welcome.

Hugs, I will miss you all.                                      ____ 
                                                                \bi/ 
Vashti                                                           \/
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: crj10@phx.cam.ac.uk (Clive Jones)
Subject: Re: t-shirt logo (cheap)
Telephone-Messages: +44 223 33 4900
Address: Christ's College, Cambridge CB2 3BU, ENGLAND.
Organization: 6am Digital Playground
X-Furry-Character: Gerald_Duck
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 17:05:32 GMT

In article <BxsDuK.KBy@ibmpcug.co.uk>, gtoal@ibmpcug.co.uk (Graham Toal) writes:
> 
> Spotted a good t-shirt today in a mass-market store: my boyfriend went to
> London and all I got was this lousy t-shirt.  Subtle, I thought :)

Been there, done that - but Mike wouldn't let me send him one for Christmas at
his parental address. Wonder why not...

--Clive.
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: idx009@cck.coventry.ac.uk (the Crisco Kid)
Subject: Re: Homophobic garbage
Organization: Eris's Restaurant
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 16:44:05 GMT

In article <1992Nov16.202702.5836@dcs.warwick.ac.uk> kay@dcs.warwick.ac.uk (Kay Dekker) writes:
>In article <1durjdINNt0f@cuda.add.itg.ti.com> winsor@geek.NoSubdomain.NoDomain (js) writes:
>>Whip me, beat me, make me use lint!
>
>My pleasure...
>					Kay
>-- 
>the Crisco Kid: nasty pinko faggot agnostic pervert punk.  csx043@uk.ac.cov.cck
							    !!!!!!
							    Aaargh!

Mea culpa! <spank> Mea culpa! <spank!> Mea maxima culpa! <spankety-spank!>

That's what I get for not checking my .signature before I post.  I very
rarely use that account for posting anything, and I forgot to update
the signature when I moved from computer science to industrial design.

I haven't been "csx043" for years, now, and I doubt very much whether
it'd work any more.  So please don't post to it!  And a bit warm wet
*hug* to Vato for spotting it for me.

The rest of the signature stands, however :)

					Kay
-- 
6'2", dark short hair, blue eyes, bisexual and horny as ....
Kay Dekker, Dept of Industrial Design, Coventry University, Coventry UK
37 Old Winnings Road, Keresley Village, Coventry   |B0 f t+ g++ k++! s+ e r p!
Phone: +44 203 838668 (work) +44 203 337865 (home) |Deflowerer-of-innocents
From: winsor@geek.NoSubdomain.NoDomain (js)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: Yet another thing that I wrote...
Date: 20 Nov 1992 01:44:35 GMT
Organization: Texas Instruments Incorporated, Austin
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: geek.teng.ppd.ti.com


|> Curiously enough, this is something I've been going over a lot in
|> counselling recently.  It's all very well to recognise that it is
|> a mask you present to the world -- but after all the years showing
|> nothing else, can you really be sure that there's anything left
|> inside?  That there is a real you -- something more than the masks
|> presented for the benefit of others?  Would you dare to try and 
|> remove the masks if you believed/knew this to be the case (I can't)?
Yes.  It was tough.  And there I was, just waiting inside.  Just as I had left
myself so long before.  Now there are more:  Professional, Daddy, Hubby.  
And I *like* these, very much.
*Hugs* to see you on your quest.
*hugs* *hugs* *hugs*
js
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: cjmchale@dsg.cs.tcd.ie (Ciaran McHale)
Subject: Re: "what other people think" (was Re: New Age Androgynous Bisexuals..
Organization: DSG, Dept. of Computer Science, Trinity College Dublin
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 12:17:16 GMT

In <BxwrIo.L2L@newcastle.ac.uk> J.W.Harley@newcastle.ac.uk (Jon Harley) writes:
>>Context DROP!  We were, as I recall, talking about whether it's okay
>>for Elf to dislike New Age Androgynous Bisexuals.
>
>No we were NOT. We were talking about whether it's okay for Elf to use this
>forum to slag off New Age Androgynous Bisexuals.

Whether Elf!! using soc.bi for slagging off New Age Bisexuals is okay
or not is a moot point if it can be shown that Elf!! was not, in fact,
doing that. His article has long ago expired at my site, but from what I
remember of it, Elf was giving out about people (New Age Androgynous
Bisexuals) who said:

	1. X is good.
	2. NOT(X) is bad.

I read Elf!!'s posting as saying:

	1. X is good for people who like it, but it is not to my
	   personal taste.
	2. NOT(X) can also be good, and it happens to be to my liking.
	3. I dislike people who say that "NOT(X) is bad" since they are
	   trying to tell me how I should feel.

I think Jon read Elf!!'s article somewhat differently:

	1. X is bad.
	2. NOT(X) is good.
	3. People who think that X is good are fools.

Elf!! might have used a generalisation or two in his posting, but so
what? He indicated at the beginning of his article that he was pissed
off and was venting some anger. We have discussed here before about
people tending to generalise when venting anger.


Ciaran.
-- 
---- Ciaran McHale (cjmchale@dsg.cs.tcd.ie)
\bi/ Department of Computer Science, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland.
 \/  Telephone: +353-1-7021539 FAX: +353-1-6772204
From: seamus@ravel.udel.edu (James G Dilmore)
Subject: Re: "what other people think" (was Re: New Age Androgynous Bise
Organization: University of Delaware
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 08:08:02 GMT

In article <69829@cup.portal.com> Drakon@cup.portal.com (HARRY BENJAMIN GIBSON) writes:
>Have been in hibernation for some time. The beginning of the Christmas Season
>does that to me. But I have been reading this group. And I just read something
>that scares the hell out of me.
>
Scared or not you are a muffin.
HUGS HUGS, kisses, kisses, and a final an dramitic grope.
>
Jim, who disagrees with lots of things on this thread but who really 
doesn't have the time to catch up and actually respond.

I will say that legal restriction of language is absurd, but as jon
said we have a responsibility to change wrong-headisms(good word).

I don't like, There are no evil thoughts, only evil actions,
though I think that it can lead to layzay fare(sp:) social attitudes
which lead to apathy.  I have seen it happen.  But hey gotta go.
-- 
Jim Dilmore - seamus@brahms.udel.edu    
               SILENCE = DEATH    
This is not a black and white world,
to be alive I believe the colors must be swirled- Live.
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: TXK025@maccvm.corp.mot.com (Eddie Chandler)
Subject: JEFF Gallagher where are you?
Organization: Motorola
Date: 20 Nov 1992 09:54:51 CST


Jeff Gallagher please e-mail me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Eddie Chandler
From: crj10@phx.cam.ac.uk (Clive Jones)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: Feeling out of place
Date: 23 Nov 92 17:03:04 GMT
Organization: 6am Digital Playground
Telephone-Messages: +44 223 33 4900
Address: Christ's College, Cambridge CB2 3BU, ENGLAND.
X-Furry-Character: Gerald_Duck

In article <1992Nov20.062815.22036@leland.Stanford.EDU>, mlloyd@westmark.Stanford.EDU (Mike Lloyd) writes:
> crj10@phx.cam.ac.uk (Clive Jones) writes:
> : J.W.Harley@newcastle.ac.uk (Jon Harley) writes:
> : > crj10@phx.cam.ac.uk (Clive Jones) writes:
> : [...]
> : > >It *is* legal (more or less).
> : > Some things are, some aren't. Some people think some of the things that
> : > *are* legal, shouldn't be. To voice an opposing view is political.
> : I would prefer to regard it as a moral decision, rather than one of political
> : ideology.
> 
> Whoa, you've lost me already!  What are you calling a "political
> ideology" here?  That i-word is a shade loaded, and not necessarily
> connected to my idea of what "political" means (in much the same way
> that dogmatism has little to do with Jesus, even if it does seem to
> taint several of his followers).

Well - looking to my dictionary, to make sure my understanding of the terms
involved isn't *completely* off-beam, politics is either "The science and art
of government", or some related definition. Ideology is "the ideas or basis of
some economic or political theory or system". In other words, there is a
significant difference between the standpoint that non-heterosexuality is
morally justifiable, and therefore penalising or adversely regarding it is
wrong, and the view that governments should enforce rights or equality for
non-heterosexuals. The second implies a need for acceptance by the state rather
than the public.

> I mean, surely legality itself is a political issue; to have purely
> apolitical views about it seems a nonsense.  It seems sensible to me to
> use "political" to refer to any situation involving more than one
> person, since humans tend to introduce power (however subtly) into
> everything.  This is particularly true of societies, and what they do
> and do not permit.  

Ah. You're using the word "political" to mean what I'd mean by "sociological",
I think. Does this explain any confusion?

Legality IS a political issue. However, as I was saying, I'd prefer to go for
public acceptance, and hence less restrictive legislation, rather than to go
for political lobbying/protest then less restrictive legislation, then public
acceptance. For a start - I don't believe the latter would work. In addition,
I certainly don't want to compel people to accept my sexuality, in the same way
that some laws force people to accept peoples' creed or race. That just leads
to the repression of hatred, rather than the alleviation of it.

--Clive.
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: gtoal@nyx.cs.du.edu (Graham Toal)
Subject: Re: cambridge colleges, choice of
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 92 04:37:47 GMT

In article <1992Nov23.211606.26202@infodev.cam.ac.uk> crj10@phx.cam.ac.uk (Clive Jones) writes:

>> His is Emmanuel which actually mentions offical lack of admission
>> discrimination based on sex, race, religion, but no listing og
>> orientation.  
>
>It's slightly odd that Emma should even choose to mention this - most colleges
>take it for granted that you will assume they're enlightened and liberal. (-8
>I didn't feel the need to mention my sexuality when applying, even though at
>least one of my interviewers was (I later discovered) gay.

Clive tacfully neglects to mention that one of the Colleges in the centre of
town has a reputation for *requiring* homosexuality as an <entrance condition>...

G :-)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: solovay@netcom.com (Andrew M. Solovay)
Subject: Re: Hissing...
Organization: Smiley Abolition Front
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 00:06:52 GMT

In article <By4z5o.HHB@world.std.com> jcf@world.std.com (Joseph C Fineman) writes:
>elf@halcyon.com (Elf Sternberg) writes:
>
>>   One of the women took me to task afterwards, telling me that I was
>>born this way, and that the contacts I had made only showed me the
>>'truth of my existence.'
>
>I think, however, that in describing this interchange you ought not to
>have stressed the sex of your interlocutor ("one of the women", etc.),
>as it is truly irrelevant & might be taken as slur on that sex.  Men
>are *at least* as much given to that kind of claptrap as women are.

I dunno... I think men are given to a different *kind* of
claptrap. When gay men hear that I'm bisexual, they sometimes act
amused and condescending ("I was bisexual once", "you're still
experimenting", "denial ain't just a river in Egypt" (pace Stuart
Smalley)). I don't experience actual *hostility*. Most of my bi
women friends, on the other hand, *have* experienced hostility
from some lesbians, who see being bisexual as "fraternising with
the enemy" or somesuch. The hissing sounds like that.
-- 
Andrew Michael Solovay    

"When angry, count four. When very angry, swear."
                --Mark Twain
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: andreaf@bonnie.Rational.COM (Andrea Frankel)
Subject: Hi! I'm back.  Still need catalogs.
Organization: Rational
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 00:06:47 GMT

Wow!  I get busy/sick for two weeks, and there are 769 (!) messages
in this group!  My, my, my, we *are* a verbal bunch...

Other than GV, does ANYONE have any mail order catalog sources for
leather toys, BDSM props, etc.?  I asked once before, got no response
(but several people asked me to mail them a summary!).  

Hoping for more response this time, and some >hugs< and >smooches<
all around!

Mama Gronkel

p.s.  Iseult, you're back!  Was the operation a success?



Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: litterst@pecan.cns.udel.edu (Nat'l Mediocre Soc.)
Subject: Re: Surreptitious Demuffining...
Organization: University of Delaware, Newark
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1992 21:16:07 GMT

In article <1ejsgaINNcgh@cuda.add.itg.ti.com> winsor@geek.NoSubdomain.NoDomain (js) writes:
>In article <1992Nov18.200602.10625@udel.edu>, litterst@pecan.cns.udel.edu (Nat'l Mediocre Soc.) writes:
>|> 	*HUGS!*    *SQUEEZES*    *USE YOUR IMAGINATION*
>|> 
>And MY imagination is very vivid, indeed!
>"Steve".  I like that name.  So... um ...
>.
>.
>>POUNCE<  Ha! you'll never get aw*$&^TWUHL
>Oh, shit! he gotta way!
>Catch him! Tie him! Give him to ME!
>*slurple*
>*yum*
>*gratuitous groping*
>*FONDLE*
>*stroke*
><sigh>
>
>I feel MUCH better now....
>*HUGS*

YOU feel much better?  If I felt any better I'd explode!  Jeez, people need
to stop demuffining me.  I'm not used to this much ...um... you know.  I'm 
also a bit bashful, and all of this attention is making me feel...  well...
kind of tingly.  ;-)

*HUGS!*					
					Steve
-- 
| The National Mediocre Society |    Remember, only the mediocre are     |
| c/o Stephen C. Litterst       |                 always at their best.  | 
| kyraan@bach.udel.edu           \  We're number two! But we don't mind. |
|_litterst@freezer.cns.udel.edu___\_____________NMS mottoes______________|
Newsgroups: soc.bi