From: sals@random.uchicago.edu (red-head fancier)
Subject: Re: [misc.activism.progressive] Clinton Office Requests Comments
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1993 02:06:28 GMT

In article <BZS.93Jan8175219@world.std.com> bzs@world.std.com (Barry  
Shein) writes:
> 
> From: jsteiner@anwsun.phya.utoledo.edu (jason 'Think!' steiner)
> >> I assume you missed the recent Savings and Loans scandal that's
> >> costing the US around $500B?
> >
> >i believe you're getting close to the "libertarian==anarchist" fallacy
> >that so many people use. a primary point of libertarianism is that
> >with privilege comes responsibility.
> 
> And just who is supposed to enforce this responsibility? The govt???
> Ooops, we got rid of them mostly...(and I don't mean anarchy, who? who
> is supposed to enforce responsibility? please don't lecture me with
> the libertarian vs anarchy polemics, just answer the question.)

A minimal statist libertarian would keep police services as part of the  
government. As for other libertarians why do we need governments to  
enforce laws? Most of modern law evolved with minimal to no government  
involvment Private means of law enforcement acan be used. (Randy Barnett  
had a wonderful pair of articles in the Columbia Law Review on this I can  
dig up the exact reference if you want>)> 
> >the difference between libertarians & most other people is that 
> >libertarians tend to look for solutions that don't involve piling one 
> >governmental patch on another. sure, go ahead and deregulate S&Ls.
> >but make sure that their investors & owners are held responsible for
> >their financial successes & failures. it works for any other business.
> 
> I'll ask again, who is supposed to hold them responsible? How?
> 
The market forces people to be responsible for their own successes and  
failures. If a person makes a bad decision then he the government does not  
shield him from the consequences.
> >> Yes, so stupid as to hand their money over to banks for deposit who
> >> then go belly-up after loaning all the deposit money to their
> >> brothers-in-law. You must have an amazingly naive notion about
> >> punishment and accountability. Even if these scum are caught do you
> >> think they ever have the money? Do you think victims get paid back? 
> >> Do you think punishing them pays people back?
> >
> >nope. who says people have a right to get payed back after they've 
> >been defrauded? if someone steals my TV set the government has no 
> >responsibility to replace it for me. if i want it replaced i either 
> >buy a new one myself or use my insurance (you -did- buy insurance 
> >didn't you?)
> 
> Oh ho! You think insurance companies will be much the same in the
> society you describe where there is no or little govt playing an
> active role preventing crime and recovering property (play twilight
> zone music.)
> 
I think insurance companies will play a bigger role since there will be a  
larger market for it and insurance will be more flexible than now without  
nonsensical government regulation. Some theoriests (David Friedman in  
particular) think that in an anarchist society insurance compaines will  
come to act as police agencies as a natural development from their role in  
insuring against loss. You can see that start to happen now.
> >besides, the government gets its 
> >money from -me- in the first place. it'd be cheaper to replace my own
> >loss & simply cut out the middle (mis) management.

Really. Cheaper to pay an inefficent system which has no direct incnetive  
to serve you, then to pay a company which is directly responsible to you  
as you are a customer. A company which will be forced out of the market if  
it is inefficent. And how is contracting with a company any less replacing  
your own loss than dealing with a government. If anything it would be more  
because you can choose the company you deal with and you can change  
companies.> 
>> A minute ago you were talking about the wonders of insurance. Now you
> seem to believe insurance doesn't work. Which is it? What does FDIC
> stand for? How is it operated? Is it different than any insurance,
> other than the fact that the US Govt happens to own it? 

FDIC is operated differetnly than other insurance programs because the  
government does not operate it as an efficent insurance agency. FDIC  
charges an exteremly small flat insurance rate to banks which is nowhere  
near sufficent to cover probable losses. FDIC also makes no rick  
distincition which private insurance companies do Banks were effectively  
guareenteed insurance by the government regardless of their actions  
whereas a private company would take nbank policies into account in  
assessing premiums. > 
 But 100 million people were chipping in one
> insurance against that possibility.
Not quite. As I said above it is not an efficent insurance program it is  
more of a hidden subsidy.
 > So you just posit out of thin air that your idea is better because it
> happens to be derived not from the slightest understanding of how the
> system works but from your own personal ethical and moral system that
> eschews annoying details like how the banking system works but instead
> slaps simplistic junk-food ideas on any problem it confronts? Excuse
> me, but I am not impressed.
> 
I will apply this same statement to your remarks.

> No, I only understand that libertarians like to spout simple-minded
> crap and together don't seem to represent more than 15 minutes
> thinking about the problems they propose to solve.
> 
I think you should spend a little more time thinking about yor own  
solutions and I suggest you may wish to research libertarian solutions a  
little more. They're (mostly) well thought out. I suggest you may try  
reading some of Cato's work among others.
> I see, democracy, but you get to make the rules...
>
A democracy or republic which is LIMITED in it's power. Sort of like the  
Articles of Confederation or like Jefferson wanted the Constitution to be  
interperted as.  
>you have just missed something really basic
I think this sentences fits your post well.
> 
> -- 
>         -Barry Shein
> 
> Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
> Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login:  
617-739-WRLD
Xref: sparky alt.politics.libertarian:3419 soc.culture.usa:9734 alt.activism:20448