HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: David.Rice@ofa123.fidonet.org
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
Subject: "Satanic Ritual Abuse" in the media
X-Sender: newtout 0.06 Jan  3 1993
Date: 25 Jan 93  08:18:54

 
Who: bhv@areaplg2.corp.mot.com (Bronis Vidugiris)
What: <1993Jan11.111928.5468@lmpsbbs.comm.mot.com>
With: lippard@skyblu.ccit.arizona.edu (James J. Lippard)
 
??> "50,000 murders / 365 days a year / 50 states = 2.74 ritual
??> murders per day in each state."
 
JJL> "How many women of child-bearing age are members of these
JJL> cults? How many of them are pregnant at any one time? How
JJL> many children do each of them have? Answer these questions,
JJL> and see if you still think that "'2.74/day doesn't seem like
JJL> an overly high number to me.'"
 
BV> "Another way of looking at it - in 1989, there were a total
BV> of 18,947 homicides *TOTAL* in the US, according to the FBI
BV> 'uniform crime reports'. So this would require over 2X the
BV> total known homicide rate to be unknown 'ritual murders.'
BV> I don't think this is plausible."
 
And 87 missing children taken by someone other than a non-custodial
parent. Consider the 19,000 deaths on the freeways-- 90% alcohol
related, 37,000 in cigarette-related deaths, 7,500 bathroom-and-
kitchen-related deaths, 3,800 AIDS deaths, 45,000 cancer deaths
other than lung and throat cancer. . . . if our Fundamentalist
Christians were REALLY so concerned with the deaths in their
"Satanic Conspiracy," they would stop making up fantasies for their
cult members to consume without question, and get to work eradication
alcohol and tobacco, and fund medical research instead of funding
hate crimes like Colorado's Prop#9 and terrorism against women.

--- Maximus 2.01wb
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,soc.culture.usa,talk.religion.misc
From: arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee)
Subject: Re: Allan Bloom, Micheal Medved and Jack Chick
Organization: Johns Hopkins University CS Dept.
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 20:13:39 GMT

In article <1993Jan25.114837.17888@sun0.urz.uni-heidelberg.de> gsmith@lauren.iwr.uni-heidelberg.de (Gene W. Smith) writes:
>>And of course the problem with this particular opinion is not merely that
>>someone dislikes rock and roll.  Reread the passage, paying attention to the
>>phrase
>>     It's not enough to just <dislike> something; one has to show that
>>     it's as physically or psychologically <harmful> as dioxin or PCP.
>>It's not that this man dares not like rock and roll, it's that he dares
>>take the step from "I don't like rock and roll" to "rock and roll is a
>>pernicious influence on our society".
>If you don't think Bloom's opinions are pernicious, why do they worry
>you?  And if you do think they are pernicious, aren't you skating
>close to a contradiction?

Music is not an opinion.  Music may _contain_ opinions, but that's not the
same thing.

If Bloom had said "so-and-so opinions, which I see in music, are a pernicious
influence on our society", that would be different.
--
"On the first day after Christmas my truelove served to me...  Leftover Turkey!
On the second day after Christmas my truelove served to me...  Turkey Casserole
    that she made from Leftover Turkey.
[days 3-4 deleted] ...  Flaming Turkey Wings! ...
   -- Pizza Hut commercial (and M*tlu/A*gic bait)

Ken Arromdee (arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu, arromdee@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu)
From: mjones@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (mark jones)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Is there a FAQ or will you tell me of Nostradamus?
Date: 23 Jan 1993 04:03:04 GMT
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin TX
Distribution: sci
NNTP-Posting-Host: grumpy.cc.utexas.edu

Try reading pages 39-42 of Pseudoscience and the Paranormal: A critical examination of the evidence by Terence Hines.  I think that you'll find Nostradamus's was somewhat vague in his "predictions" and their success is more a function of interpretation than "psychic awareness".
Xref: sparky sci.skeptic:22784 alt.atheism:26920
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic

John, I would rather have money.  Please tell the aliens that they can
save a lot of time and effort on their part if they just send me lots of 
money.  With lots of money, I could afford to continue my education and 
therefore save them a lot of stitching, cutting and generally making a 
bloody mess.

						  
						  thanks, John-_-W.



Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
From: "dan mckinnon" <dan.mckinnon@canrem.com>
Subject: spontaneous human etc.
Reply-To: "dan mckinnon" <dan.mckinnon@canrem.com>
Organization: Canada Remote Systems
Distribution: sci
Date: 23 Jan 93 16:25:44 EST

J-W>  There  are many things that still have never been explained and people jus
J-W>continue to sweep them under the rug. One of them is spontaneous human
J-W>combustion. If you ever figure out what causes that one let me know.
J-W>John Winston
J-W>---


       I'll only reply to this part, and mention that you will never
find truth if you cannot recognize it or refuse to accept it.

       There was an excellent British documentary on TV last year that
explained "spontaneous human combustion" fully. It happens to people who
die suddenly: of natural causes, electrocution, natral gas inhalation,
etc. There is usually a fairly closed room, and a source of heat /
spark, etc. In one case it was an electric heater. They showed pictures
of some victims, or what was left, such as a pair of legs. Basically the
enclosed area/lack of large oxygen supply prevents a large fire. The
heat on the body from whatever source (ie dying and falling against the
red-hot heater) melts the body fat, the clothing acts as a wick,  and
there begins a slow, but very effective burning (even reduces bones to
ash), much like a candle. I forget exact heat mentioned, but the
neighbour hood of 200C comes to mind. It is not hot enough to ignite far
away objects by its intensity. SMoke forms from incomplete combustion
(very greasy of course) and is deposited eventually - it helps bring
about a sort of equilibrium - air comes in through cracks in doors and
windows, which supports a limited flame. They showed a home experiment
using a piece of unsliced fat bacon. Heat it in a pan 'til grease forms
on top, cover with cheese cloth (reperesents skin), apply match - et
voila - spontaneous porcine combustion!

        The program was very effective and convincing.
---
  OLX 2.1 TD  Uuuhhhh. Tag line GOOD!  Fire BAD!
--
Canada Remote Systems  - Toronto, Ontario
World's Largest PCBOARD System - 416-629-7000/629-7044
From: carl@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU (Carl J Lydick)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Krishnas, Vedas, and all that (was: TM debunking needed)
Date: 23 Jan 1993 11:26:49 GMT
Organization: HST Wide Field/Planetary Camera
Reply-To: carl@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol1.gps.caltech.edu

In article <TBiqXB3w165w@kalki33.lakes.trenton.sc.us>, system@kalki33.lakes.trenton.sc.us (Kalki Dasa) writes:
>What he said was that the astronauts never went to the moon, and his
>reason was that the moon is impossible to reach by mankind's present
>technology, not that it is impossible to reach by space flight.

Apparently a case of projection:  Since your typical Krishna couldn't hope to
understand the technology, the technology *MUST* be beyond the capability of
anybody, and therefore spaceflight is impossible for the time being.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carl J Lydick | INTERnet: CARL@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU | NSI/HEPnet: SOL1::CARL

Disclaimer:  Hey, I understand VAXen and VMS.  That's what I get paid for.  My
understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level (or below).  So
unless what I'm saying is directly related to VAX/VMS, don't hold me or my
organization responsible for it.  If it IS related to VAX/VMS, you can try to
hold me responsible for it, but my organization had nothing to do with it.
From: lippard@skyblu.ccit.arizona.edu (James J. Lippard)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Heloo, my name is Patrick
Summary: Introductory post
Date: 24 Jan 93 17:39:00 GMT
Distribution: world,local
Organization: University of Arizona
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <C1CJEH.L2z@csn.org>, kellogg@teal.csn.org (Patrick Kellogg) writes...
>2. I recently moved from the comforting politically correct world of college
>into a temporary position as a programmer. One of my co-workers said to me,
>"There isn't ANY scientific evidence for evolution whatsoever." I was struck
>speechless (a rare rare thing for me..) Therefore, I am sending "The Skeptical
>Inquirer" my subscription check immediately. 

The Skeptical Inquirer only infrequently addresses creationism.  What
you want is Creation/Evolution, P.O. Box 9477, Berkeley, CA 94709-0744
($20/year, payable to the National Center for Science Education).

Jim Lippard              Lippard@CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU
Dept. of Philosophy      Lippard@ARIZVMS.BITNET
University of Arizona
Tucson, AZ 85721
From: carl@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU (Carl J Lydick)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Eve Mitochondia?
Date: 25 Jan 1993 08:09:25 GMT
Organization: HST Wide Field/Planetary Camera
Distribution: world
Reply-To: carl@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol1.gps.caltech.edu

In article <11205@vice.ICO.TEK.COM>, bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Robert Beauchaine) writes:
>In article <8okTXB1w165w@kalki33.lakes.trenton.sc.us> system@kalki33.lakes.trenton.sc.us (Kalki Dasa) writes:
>>gtclark@festival.ed.ac.uk (G T Clark) writes:
>>
>>> 	While the "Eve" hypothesis is not proven,and is in my view
>>I posted the following article some time ago, but since the
>>"Mitochondrial Eve" issue seems to be coming into vogue again, here it
>>is one more time:
>>
>>From Back to Godhead magazine, Sept/Oct 1992
>>
>>WAS THERE AN EVE?
>>
>
>  What a disappointing article.  I licked my lips as I started in on
>  the first couple of pages, thinking it was going to be an
>  excellent scientific treatise on a subject that I'm not terribly
>  well informed on.

C'mon, you've got to be kidding!  You actually expected something other than
bullshit from a Hindu fundamentalist like Kalki?  You wanna buy a bridge? 
Cheap?  Fundamentalists have one thing in common:
	NO MATTER WHAT EVIDENCE MAY BE FOUND IN THE WORLD, THEY'LL FIND A WAY
	TO WARP THAT EVIDENCE TO FIT THEIR SCRIPTURES.
Kalki is no exception.  He's quite willing to wave his arms about and chant
about multi-dimensional bullshit to justify the Vedas, despite the fact that
the mathematics he's invoking was entirely unknown to the authors of the Vedas,
in an effort to "prove" that the Vedic authors knew their asses from holes in
the ground.  Those same Vedic authors would almost certainly look askance at
Kalki's sophomorisms and condemn him as a heretic.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carl J Lydick | INTERnet: CARL@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU | NSI/HEPnet: SOL1::CARL

Disclaimer:  Hey, I understand VAXen and VMS.  That's what I get paid for.  My
understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level (or below).  So
unless what I'm saying is directly related to VAX/VMS, don't hold me or my
organization responsible for it.  If it IS related to VAX/VMS, you can try to
hold me responsible for it, but my organization had nothing to do with it.
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
From: lip@s1.gov (Loren I. Petrich)
Subject: Re: Krishnas, Vedas, and all that (was: TM debunking needed)
Organization: LLNL
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 01:36:21 GMT

In article <ePgVXB3w165w@kalki33.lakes.trenton.sc.us> system@kalki33.lakes.trenton.sc.us (Kalki Dasa) writes:
>lip@s1.gov (Loren I. Petrich) writes:
>
: ...... Indian astrology is based on Hellenistic
: astrology; even the names of the constellations are similar. So I'd
: presume it would include the belief that the Moon is closer to the
: Earth than the Sun.
>
>This is false. Vedic astronomy is not based on Greek astronomy. If
>anything, it is the other way around. See the book Vedic Cosmography and
>Astronomy by Richard L. Thompson. Also see the paper On the Antiquity of
>the Star Coordinates from Indian Jyotisha Shastras, by the same author.

	Does he distinguish between the Vedas proper and later
writings?

: 	As to Vedic astronomy, I wouldn't be very surprised if it
: wasn't very sophisticated; apparently the Vedas teach explicitly that
: the Earth is flat, which may give pause to Hindu fundamentalists like
: the Hare Krishnas.
>
>No, the Vedas teach that the Bhu-Mandala planetary system, of which the
>spherical Earth planet is a tiny part, is a higher-dimensional disk
>embedded in higher-dimensional space. The Vedic Jyotisha shastras
>explicitly acknowledge that the earth "as we know it" is a sphere.
>Translators who know nothing of Vedic philosophy and science lump many
>different Sanskrit terms together and call them all "Earth."

	Can you quote for me the verses in the various Vedas (like the
Rig Veda) that discuss this cosmology om detail?

-- 
/Loren Petrich, the Master Blaster
/lip@s1.gov
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
From: lip@s1.gov (Loren I. Petrich)
Subject: Re: Krishnas, Vedas, and all that (was: TM debunking needed)
Organization: LLNL
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 01:45:54 GMT

In article <1jkl4lINN89t@duca.hi.com> wright@duca.hi.com (David Wright) writes:
>In article <1993Jan20.041222.28142@netcom.com> sheaffer@netcom.com
>(Robert Sheaffer) writes: 
: 
: And the Hare Krishnas are even sillier than THAT. Their publication "Back
: to Godhead" published sometime during 1977 an article titled "Man on the
: Moon, A case of mass brainwashing." The author, Satsvarupa dasa Goswami,
: argues in essence that since the Vedas proclaim space flight to be 
: impossible, therefore the moon landing could not possibly have happened.
: Some quotes:
>
> ...[mucho material deleted]
>
:    The Vedic account of our planetary system is already researched,
:    concluded, and perfect. The _Vedas_ state that the moon is 800,000
:    miles _farther_ from earth than the sun. 
>
>This is just too beautiful.  One wonders just how the Vedas account
>for solar eclipses.  Indeed, it doesn't seem unreasonable that the
>ancient Indian astronomers would have recognized that such eclipses
>were caused by the moon passing in front of the sun, and would not
>have been averse to saying so.  I seem to recall that the Greeks had
>worked this one out.

	By Hellenistic times (after Alexander the Great) in the
Eastern Mediterranean basin, it was known that the Earth is shaped
like a ball and that eclipses are caused by the Moon concealing the
Sun or entering the Earth's shadow as the case may be.

	Furthermore, Indian astrology is based on Hellenistic
astrology; even the names of the constellations are similar. So I'd
presume it would include the belief that the Moon is closer to the
Earth than the Sun.

	As to Vedic astronomy, I wouldn't be very surprised if it
wasn't very sophisticated; apparently the Vedas teach explicitly that
the Earth is flat, which may give pause to Hindu fundamentalists like
the Hare Krishnas.

>I suppose, if nothing else, it's nice to know that fundamentalist
>Christians do not have a monopoly on the idea of "our sacred text has
>All The Answers and if the material world seems to disagree, someone
>in that world is lying."

-- 
/Loren Petrich, the Master Blaster
/lip@s1.gov
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
From: sschaff@roc.SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Stephen F. Schaffner)
Subject: Re: -REAL- Christians dont know god is dead
Organization: Stanford Linear Accelerator Center
Distribution: na
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 22:48:37 GMT

In article <2166@admin.mport.COM>, max@admin.mport.COM (Max) writes:
|> zellner@stsci.edu writes:

|> >Of course he's arbitrary.  He's God, and he's not in the slightest accountable
|> >to us for his laws of good and evil, any more than he is accountable for to us
|> >for the way he made the universe or the laws of physics.  And we don't "make
|> >god" anything; he made us, and everything else too.
|> 
|> ben claimes that its not just a belief in god, it "TRUE".

Well (assuming, as you say, that Ben does indeed believe in God) of course he 
thinks his belief is true -- what other meaning could "belief" have in this 
context?  

|> ah, the cruxt! ben makes a huge mistake in reason: if i dont believe in
|> gravity, do things fall when i drop them? yes, of course, hell, even a flat
|> earther can see that! BUT if i dont believe in god, my transgression against
|> gods laws have no effect on me! no god=no hell! yay!
|> 
|> are you following this ben? god is just a beleif system, not a reflection
|> of reality (if you believe in that...).

Is it fair to say that your argument here is "You believe in God; I don't"?
Obviously you think he's wrong, and he thinks you're wrong (so do I, but 
that's beside the point), but where's the "huge mistake in reason"?

[...]

|> but i guess that THIS is really really the cruxt of the debate. it god ours
|> or are we his. ho ho. 
|> 
|> actually, i spoke to god the other day, and he said
|> to me that he was actualy working for the cia, and that he was on our side.
|> 
|> silly me, and i thought he was dead. :-)

I'm having some trouble following your train of thought here. . .

|> if any of the above conditions will keep us out of his blessings, then what
|> happans if you dont believe in the blessings in the first place? nothing.

Hmm, sounds like you're not in a position to determine whether the 
blessings exist, then: either they don't exist and you haven't got them, 
or they do exist and you haven't got them.  


Now if I could just remember what this is doing on sci.skeptic . . .

-- 
Steve Schaffner        sschaff@unixhub.slac.stanford.edu
	The opinions expressed may be mine, and may not be those of SLAC, 
Stanford University, or the DOE.
Xref: sparky sci.skeptic:22904 alt.folklore.urban:34953
From: weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.folklore.urban
Subject: Re: AIDS cases reach 1 million, again....SPY
Date: 27 Jan 93 17:13:46 GMT
Reply-To: weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener)
Followup-To: sci.skeptic
Organization: The Wistar Institute of Anatomy and Biology
In-reply-to: mjenkins@alfred.carleton.ca (Michael Jenkinson)

In article <mjenkins.728073334@cunews>, mjenkins@alfred (Michael Jenkinson) writes:
>Oct 1, 1985: New York Times reports that "up to one million Americans"

>[1 million, 1 million, 1 million, etc]

>At press time, a CDC spokesperson told Spy that the number of
>Americans infected with AIDS had reached a staggering one million.

This is nonsense.  You can be infected with HIV--that is estimated
to be about 1 million.  You can be diagnosed with AIDS--and that is
estimated to be about .2 million in the US.

>Comments?

I posted on this recently in sci.med.aids.  Basically, the number is
very difficult to estimate, and one million is too convenient a ballpark
figure to dislodge without hard details.  The later numbers are based
on greater information regarding seroprevalence and disease progression,
and in fact, the CDC now retroactively estimates that about 750,000
Americans were HIV+ as of Jan 1986.

For the detailed summary, and references to the actual calculations,
see "HIV Prevalence Estimates and AIDS Case Projections for the United
States: Report Based Upon a Workshop" MMWR v39 #RR-16 (30 Nov 90).
-- 
-Matthew P Wiener (weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
From: jlg@cochiti.lanl.gov (J. Giles)
Subject: Re: does this sound right?
Organization: Los Alamos National Laboratory
Distribution: sci
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 22:29:02 GMT

In article <C1F8Dq.5KE@cs.uiuc.edu>, mcgrath@cs.uiuc.edu (Robert McGrath) writes:
|> In article <1993Jan23.4286.31987@dosgate>, "dan mckinnon" <dan.mckinnon@canrem.com> writes in part:
|> |>    The "gone forever" part gives me more trouble, unless every acre is
|> |> on a mountainside and quickly devastated by erosion, or unless third
|> |> world countries are erecting shopping malls at an alarming rate.
|> 
|> Got it on the second try (at least in the Amazon basin).  The soil
|> of the forest pretty much turns to useless muck in about two years
|> after the trees are cleared.  The forests do not grow back.  Nothing
|> much grows at all, especially if cattle are grazed on it.
|> 
|> And in the case of ANY primary growth forest, clearing it out
|> is permanent. Even if a secondary growth forest develops (after
|> decades) it is NOT the same kind of forest, and much of the life
|> that lives there is gone forever.  Lots of trees is not the same
|> thing as a climax forest ecology.  Compare, for instance, the
|> unlogged forests of Oregon with the secondary growth in, say,
|> Michigan, which was logged out about 1910.

It's a little misleading to compare the Amazon basin to, say, Oregon.
In Oregon, many of the "old growth" forests are on the sites of recent
(less than a thousand years) complete devastation by volcanic activity.
Yes, the forests regrew.  The Amazon, on the other hand has not had a
history of widespread devastation and regrowth, so it's reasonable to
suppose that large-scale destruction *there* might indeed be permanent.

Comparing Michigan to Oregon has more sense.  There are still bound to
be differences in geology and climate, however.  And, only 90 years is 
a little too short an interval (in forest terms) make any firm conclusions
about whether the Michigan forests can or will regrow.  There are also
questions about the effect of continued land-use and recreational
pressure on a forested area after cutting which can effect the rate
and quality of the regrowth.  Finally, it certainly makes a considerable
difference whether the logged area is replanted artificially or not
(artificially repopulated forests tend to be mono-cultures without
adequate diversity in the species and/or ages of the trees).

How much forest can be cut and what policies should be in place to best
encourage recovery and renewal of the resource are questions about which
a lot is known, but not nearly enough to make absolute positive claims.
The present state of knowledge leaves a lot of room for wildly different
opinions between equally well-informed scientists.  You could argue that 
cutting down "old growth" forests before the above questions (and others) 
have been answered is irresponsible.  On the other hand, depriving people 
of an important source of income during a recession because of problems 
that only *may* occur could also be characteized as irresponsible.  Welcome 
to the wonderful world of politics.

-- 
J. Giles