From: kent@phoenix.ocf.llnl.gov (Kent J Crispin)
Newsgroups: sci.econ
Subject: Re: Wage Slavery
Date: 16 Apr 92 20:47:23 GMT
Organization: Lawrence Livermore Nat'l Lab.

In article <9204161600.AA14828@xuucp.ch.apollo.hp.com> nelson_p@APOLLO.HP.COM writes:
>>WHY do you think that "culture and community" have declined?
...
>  The cultural changes which have occured in our society have been
>  the result of industrialization and technology.  The government
>  didn't do this.

Interesting.  Let me see if I can paraphrase: A variety of factors --
technology, industrialization, immigration for political or economic
reasons, etc -- have led to a massive increase in mixing of cultures. 
When cultures mix cultural stability (fairly obviously) decreases. 
Common experience shows us that cultural mixing leads to a great deal of
psychological stress -- there have been anthropological studies that
show this clearly, by the way, though I couldn't give a reference -- 
memories from an anthro class years ago.

All this I agree with.  Two points, though.  First, I think that there
is a significant component of relative economic hardship involved --
even though I agree that most of us in the US really live in the
lap of luxury compared to people 200 years ago, the effect of relative
differences in standard of living is very important.  The fact of the
matter is, I am uneasy and a little envious of those who are a great
deal richer than I.  Second, it doesn't follow that there isn't anything
government can do about the situation.

>  BTW, I should hasten to add that I'm hardly pining away for the
>  past -- the "strong sense of identity" and "cultural values" are
>  also what produces the tribalism and warfare of Yugoslavia and
>  Lebanon, and racism and bigotry in general.   Religion is anti-
>  thetical to rationalism and science.  Small towns could also
>  be very stifling, provincal, conformist.   
>
>  But we have yet to evolve institutions and values to take over
>  where those earlier forms have faded.   And this is why people 
>  turn to geovernment -- customs and traditioanal values don't work
>  so we replace them with law.   Community and family support
>  systems are gone so we demand welfare, etc.

I agree -- I think  that the human race as a whole  or in part
hasn't evolved a culture and a world view that adequately deals with
the changes you describe, and given the pace of change, I don't
think that us internet utiopian theorists are likely to imagine it 
either...but turning to "government" isn't necessarily bad.  (It
isn't necessarily good, either.)

>  Libertarians fantasize that if only the government were gone
>  all these old institutions would return.  They fail to grasp
>  that it was industrialization, technology, mobility, etc, which
>  did away with those old institutions, not government.

Actually, I think that one of the problems is that "government" has
become one of those loaded words that people attach a great deal
too much emotional significance to :-)	

>
>---peter

Kent
--
Kent Crispin				"No need to get excited",
kent@ocfmail.ocf.llnl.gov		the thief he kindly spoke....
Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory	<Standard disclaimer>