From: ACUS10@WACCVM.SPS.MOT.COM (Mark Fuller)
Subject: LDS: Which God? (was: Nibley: Genius or Fool)
Originator: root@mogate.sps.mot.com
Organization: Motorola Inc.
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 16:23:24 GMT

robarr@sdcc3.ucsd.edu (Robert O'Barr) writes:
>In article <1992Aug14.153820.23260@newsgate.sps.mot.com> ACUS10@WACCVM.SPS.MOT.
>*><HISWJH@BYUVM.BITNET> writes:
>*>> Glenn would have us believe that Hugh Nibley is a fool.  Let us
>*>> examine how qualified Glenn is to make such an assessment by
>*>> comparing Glenn with Hugh Nibley:
>*>>
>*>> 1.  Hugh Nibley has a Ph.D. from Berkeley.
>*>>    Where did Glenn get his Ph.D.?
>*>
>*>When did education, degree, or place of learning become the determinant
>*>of one's 'foolishness'?  My dictionary says:
>*>
>*>  'Fool - A person lacking understanding,
>*>          judgment, or common sense.'
>
>To me, this type of name calling is disturbing.  Glenn was good
>enough to retract his use of the word "fool".  But appearantly you
>do not want to give up the name calling.
>
>Now that we know what your dictionary says about the word fool, what
>does your Bible say about the word?
>
>My Bible says:
>
>"Whosoever shall say to his brother ... Thou fool, shall be in danger
>of hell fire"

    I appreciate your concern for my eternal condition.  While I do not
consider the LDs employee, Dr. Nibley, my brother, I do feel compelled
to point out when it appears he is using his status and credentials
for the purpose of deception.

    On the issue of our eternal condition, and the possibility that
someone may be headed for that 'hell-fire' you mention -- I would like
to ask you: Who is the 'father god' of the LDs trinity?  And, do you
believe it is possible to enter heaven while believing in a false god?
Is it reasonable to you that an organization would lead people to a god
other than Jehovah, while professing to be the only true form of Christianity,
with all others being lost?

    Recently I was reading the Mormon Apostle Bruce R. McConkie's
speech, which he delivered at a BYU devotional, in 1982.  This
speech was in response to a 'fad' which was sweeping the campus due
to a certain book being circulated by George Pace.  This book, titled
'What it means to know Christ', states in the foreword that people
should 'center their lives in Christ and ... develop their own
personal relationship with Him.'

    Mormon Apostle McConkie attacked George Pace's book, and referred to
the need to gain a special relationship with Christ as 'false and vain
and foolish' [1] and attributed it, and the 'false feelings' induced by it,
as a work of the Devil. [2] He continued to refer to this concept as
summarizing the ...

       'chief and greatest heresy of Christendom.  Truly the most evil
       heresy ever imposed on an erring and wayward Christianity is their
       creedal concept of God and the Godhead!' [3]

    In his attempt to diminish the concept of a personal relationship
with Christ, McConkie stated,

       'We worship the Father and him only and no one else.  We do not
       worship the Son and we do not worship the Holy Ghost.  I know
       perfectly well what the spriptures say about worshipping
       Christ and Jehovah, but they are speaking in an entirely
       different sense ... Worship in the true and saving sense is
       reserved for God the first, the Creator.' [4]

    Before I continue with McConkie's speech, I would like to point out
that in the LDs, Jehovah is Jesus, and is not the 'father'.  In the
1981 edition of the LDs scriptures (the LDs KJV) it says,

       Jehovah is the premortal Jesus Christ and came to earth being
       born of Mary (see Mosiah 13:28; 15:1; 3 Ne. 15:1-5; D&C 110:1-10).
       Although Ex. 6:3 states that the God of Israel was not known by
       the name Jehovah before Moses' time, latter-day revelation tells
       us otherwise (Abr. 1;16; 2:8; cf. JST Ex. 6:3; see also Gen. 22;14).

    This can be found on page 711, and tells us that Jehovah is Jesus Christ
in pre-existence.  This again is stated more succinctly in _Mormon Doctrine_,
'Christ is Jehovah; they are one and the same Person.' pg.392.  _Articles of
Faith_ echo this teaching, in _The Father and the Son: A Doctrinal Exposition_.
where James Talmadge tells us,

       '... God the Eternal Father, whom we designate by the exalted
       name-title "Elohim," is the literal parent of our Lord and Saviour
       Jesus Christ, and the spirits of the human race. ... '
       '... With this meaning, as the context shows in every case, Jehovah
       who is Jesus Christ the Son of Elohim. ...'
       '... the solemn fact of the literal relationship of the Father and
       Son between Elohim and Jesus Christ.  Among the
       spirit children of Elohim the firstborn was and is Jehovah...'

    From this, we can see, when McConkie says 'We worship the Father
and him only and no one else', he is talking about someone entirely
different than Jehovah.  This is extremely difficult to accept when
we consider the First Commandment, 'I am Jehovah thy God, ... thou
shalt have no other gods before me.' Ex. 20:2.  Or, Ex 34:14, 'For
thou shalt worship no other god, for Jehovah, whose name is jealous,
is a jealous God.'  In fact, Jesus Himself qouted this very same
message to Satan in MT 4:10.

    If there is any doubt as to what Mormon Apostle McConkie is
saying, we find again the concept of Jehovah not being the 'father',
when he says,

  'Christ [Jehovah] worked out his own salvation by worshipping the
  Father [Elohim].' [5]

To believe Jehovah bowed himself to another god is very difficult to
comprehend in light of Psalm 97:9 'For thou, Jehovah, are high above all
the earth; thou are exalted far above all gods.'  Psalm 135:5: 'For I know
that Jehovah is great, and our Lord is above all gods.'  Mormon Apostle
McConkie continues by saying,

  'Our relationship with the Father [Elohim] is supreme, paramount,
  and pre-eminent over all others.  He is the God we worship.  It is
  this gospel that saves and exalts. ... if there were some need ---
  which there is not! --- to single out one member of the Godhead for
  a special relationship, the Father [Elohim], not the son [Jehovah],
  would be the one to choose' [6]

    If anyone doubts the doctrinal weight McConkies' words carry, he
tells us at the begining of this speech, 'I shall expound the doctrine of
the Church...' [7]  In fact, at the time McConkie stated the Mormon position
so clearly, he had been an Apostle for almost 10 years, and previous to that,
a member of the First Council of Seventy for 16 years.

>>> continued....

[1] McConkie, March 2, 1982, typed copy, pg. 2
    (available from Lighthouse Ministries 801-485-8894)
[2] ibid, pg.3.
[3] ibid, pg.3.
[4] ibid, pg.5
[5] ibid, pg.8.   bracketed material added for clarity.
[6] ibid, pg.16-17. bracketed material added for clarity.
[7] ibid, pg.1

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