From: m23364@mwunix (James Meritt)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: I'm God.
Date: 29 Sep 92 16:58:53 GMT
Organization: MITRE Corporation, McLean VA

In article <69009@hydra.gatech.EDU> rpitts@emperor.gatech.edu (Richard Pitts) writes:
}The OT points to Jesus the Christ and the NT reveals him as the fulfillment
}of the OT and tells of his return.  Many other historians have records
}about Jesus and his death at Pontius Pilate's hand.  I'm going
}to try and post some of these over the weekend.

And to hop back, here is what I posted earlier that I'm relatively sure
that you conveniently forgot:


	_Evidence_That_Demands_a_Verdict_ is a book that presents "historical
evidences for the christian faith".  It is produced by the Campus Crusade for
Christ, Inc and was prepared by a Magna Cum Laude graduate of Talbot 
Theological Seminary.  

}	Chapter 9. The Messianic Prophecies of the Old Testament fulfilled
}		in Jesus Christ
		Logically speaking, this chapter is horrible.  You cannot verify a
		text from itself, but only (at best) check its consistency.  And
		NONE of the "fulfilled" items have any verification other than
		the same bible that made them.  
}		credentials of Jesus as the Messiah through fulfilled prophecy
}			1. Born of the seed of woman

GEN 3:15  And I will put enmity between thee and the  woman,  and
between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou
shalt bruise his heel.

			Like, who isn't?  EVERYONE (iaw the Bible, anyway) is
			a descendent of a woman.
}			2. born of a virgin
	James J. Lippard writes:
	"Probably the most famous of these 
	prophecies is the prophecy that Jesus would be born of a virgin.  
	The gospels of Matthew (1:18-25) and Luke (1:26-35) both claim 
	that Jesus was born of a virgin, but only Matthew (1:23) appeals 
	to the Hebrew scriptures as an explanation for why this should be 
	the case.  The verse appealed to is Isaiah 7:14, which reads:  
	"Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign:  Behold, a 
	virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call his 
	name Immanuel."
		There are a number of difficulties with this passage.  As 
	many have noted, the Hebrew word translated as "virgin" in this 
	verse is "almah," which is more accurately translated simply as 
	"young woman."  The Hebrew word "bethulah" means "virgin."  In the 
	book of Isaiah, "bethulah" appears four times (23:12, 37:22, 47:1, 
	62:5), so its author was aware of the word.  In the New American 
	Standard translation of the Bible, all other appearances of 
	"almah" are translated simply as "girl," "maid," or "maiden" (viz:  
	Genesis 24:43, Exodus 2:8, Psalms 68:25, Proverbs 30:19, Song of 
	Solomon 1:3, 6:8).  Thus the claimed fulfillment adds a 
	biologically impossible condition which is not even present in the 
	original prophecy(1).
		Another problem is that nowhere in the New Testament does 
	Mary, Jesus' mother, refer to him as "Immanuel."  Thus we have no 
	evidence that one of the conditions of the prophecy was ever 
	fulfilled.
		But the most serious problem with this alleged messianic 
	prophecy is that it has been taken out of context.  Looking at the 
	entire seventh chapter of Isaiah, it becomes clear that the child 
	in question is to be born as a sign to Ahaz, King of Judah, that 
	he will not be defeated in battle by Rezin, King of Syria, and 
	Pekah, son of the King of Israel.  Jesus' birth was some seven 
	centuries late to be such a sign.
		J. Edward Barrett (1988, p. 14) points out evidence that 
	early Christians rejected the virgin birth.  One piece of 
	Barrett's evidence is that in 1 Timothy 1:3-4, the writer (who may 
	or may not be the apostle Paul) advises that his audience 
	"instruct certain men not to teach strange doctrines, nor to pay 
	attention to myths and endless genealogies, which give rise to 
	mere speculation rather than furthering the administration of God 
	which is by faith."  The earliest gospel, Mark, lacks an account 
	of Jesus' birth, as does John, the latest gospel.  Virgin birth is 
	obviously quite relevant to genealogy, and both Matthew and Luke 
	present Jesus' genealogy in close proximity to the story."
}			3. son of God
		See above.
}			4. seed of Abraham
	James J. Lippard writes:
	"	There are various alleged genealogical prophecies about the 
	ancestry of the Messiah.  It is claimed that Genesis 22:18 and 
	12:2-3 are prophecies that the Messiah will be a descendent of 
	Abraham, but these verses say nothing about the Messiah.  They say 
	simply that the descendents of Abraham will be blessed."

GEN 21:12  And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be  grievous  in
thy  sight  because  of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in
all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her  voice;  for
in Isaac shall thy seed be called.

Excuse me, but these are the verses he referred to.  I see what appears
to be a promise that the nation will descend from him (as taught in
sunday school) and the birth of Isaac, but zip about Christ.

}			5. son of Isaac

GEN 21:12  And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be  grievous  in
thy  sight  because  of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in
all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her  voice;  for
in Isaac shall thy seed be called.

Looks more like instructions to name Abraham's son Isaac to me...

}			6. son of Jacob

NUM 24:15  And he took up his parable, and said, Balaam  the  son
of Beor hath said, and the man whose eyes are open hath said:
NUM 24:16  He hath said, which heard the words of God,  and  knew
the  knowledge  of the most High, which saw the vision of the Al-
mighty, falling into a trance, but having his eyes open:
NUM 24:17  I shall see him, but not now: I shall behold him,  but
not  nigh:  there  shall  come a Star out of Jacob, and a Sceptre
shall rise out of Israel, and shall smite the  corners  of  Moab,
and destroy all the children of Sheth.
NUM 24:18  And Edom shall be a possession, Seir also shall  be  a
possession for his enemies; and Israel shall do valiantly.
NUM 24:19  Out of Jacob shall come he that shall  have  dominion,
and shall destroy him that remaineth of the city.
NUM 24:20  And when he looked on Amalek, he took up his  parable,
and said, Amalek was the first of the nations; but his latter end
shall be that he perish for ever.

Looks more like a promise that some mean somabitch will rule Israel
and do some serious butt-kickin'.  This is Jesus?!?!?

}			7. tribe of Judah
Genesis 49:7 Cursed be their anger, for it was fierce; and their wrath
for it was cruel: I will divide them in Jacob and scatter them in Israel.
Genesis 49:8 Judah, thou art he whom thy brethren shall praise: they 
hand shall be at the neck of thine enemies; thy father's children
shall bow down before thee.
Genesis 49:9 Judah is a lion's whelp: from the prey, my son, thou art
gone up: he stooped down, he couched as a lion, and as an old lion, who shall
rouse him up?
Genesis 49:10  The scepter shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver
from between his feet, until Shiloh come, and unto him shall the gathering
of the people be.

Excuse me again, but this reads as the standard run of promises given.
This is in the section "Jacob's dying blessing", and it is the standard
"who is in charge" speach.  And there is the minor detail that Shiloh
is desolate ruins with the remains of a synagogue...
}			8. family line of Jesse
ISA 10:33  Behold, the Lord, the LORD of  hosts,  shall  lop  the
bough  with  terror:  and  the high ones of stature shall be hewn
down, and the haughty shall be humbled.
ISA 10:34  And he shall cut down the thickets of the forest  with
iron, and Lebanon shall fall by a mighty one.
ISA 11:1  And there shall come forth a rod out  of  the  stem  of
Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
ISA 11:2  And the spirit of the LORD shall  rest  upon  him,  the
spirit  of  wisdom  and  understanding, the spirit of counsel and
might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;
ISA 11:3  And shall make him of quick understanding in  the  fear
of  the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes,
neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:
ISA 11:4  But with righteousness shall he  judge  the  poor,  and
reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite
the earth: with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of  his
lips shall he slay the wicked.

Excuse me, but this appears to be talking about a quite destructive individual,
who causes the downfall of Lebanon, and slays the wicked with his words.
Sounds much more like a conquering war-king than Jesus.
}			9. house of David

JER 23:3  And I will gather the remnant of my flock  out  of  all
countries  whither  I have driven them, and will bring them again
to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase.
JER 23:4  And I will set up shepherds over them which shall  feed
them: and they shall fear no more, nor be dismayed, neither shall
they be lacking, saith the LORD.
JER 23:5  Behold, the days come, saith  the  LORD,  that  I  will
raise  unto  David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and
prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
JER 23:6  In his days Judah shall  be  saved,  and  Israel  shall
dwell  safely:  and  this is his name whereby he shall be called,
THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.
JER 23:7  Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD,  that
they  shall  no  more  say, The LORD liveth, which brought up the
children of Israel out of the land of Egypt;
JER 23:8  But, The LORD liveth, which brought up  and  which  led
the  seed  of  the  house of Israel out of the north country, and
from all countries whither I had  driven  them;  and  they  shall
dwell in their own land.

I don't recall this description as fitting Jesus.  Sounds more like a great
unifying King.  Even if Josh was 100% right on his assertions on 4-9,
if it were the last it HAD to be the earlier.  Not, even by his assumptions,
vaguely independent events.
	James J. Lippard writes on 5,6,7,8,and 9:
	"Other 
	claimed prophecies about the Messiah's ancestry are that he will 
	be of the tribe of Judah (Genesis 49:10, Micah 5:2), of the family 
	line of Jesse (Isaiah 11:1, 10), and of the house of David 
	(Jeremiah 23:5, 2 Samuel 7:12-16, Psalms 132:11).  Some of these 
	do appear to be genuine messianic prophecies, but others simply 
	seem to refer to future kings.  All of these verses refer to 
	kings--and thus none have been fulfilled by Jesus.
		But the problems for these prophecies run even deeper.  Is 
	Jesus actually of the tribe of Judah, the family line of Jesse, 
	and the house of David?  The sole evidence for this is two sets of 
	genealogies for Jesus, in Matthew 1:1-17 and Luke 3:23-38.  Both 
	of these trace Jesus' lineage through his father, Joseph.  If the 
	virgin birth story is taken seriously, then Jesus lacks the proper 
	ancestry.  On the other hand, if the genealogy in Matthew is taken 
	seriously, then Jesus has as an ancestor Jeconiah (Matthew 1:12), 
	of whom the prophet Jeremiah said, "Write this man down as 
	childless, a man who will not prosper in his days, for no man of 
	his descendants will prosper sitting on the throne of David or 
	ruling again in Judah." (Jeremiah 22:30)  The genealogy in Luke 
	suffers from the same problem, since it includes Shealtiel and 
	Zerubbabel, both of whom were descendents of Jeconiah."
}		       10. born at Bethlehem
		Funny thing.  While McDowell gives Micah 5:2 as
	the "prophecy", his discussion doesn't mention it at all.

MIC 5:1  Now gather thyself in troops, O daughter of  troops:  he
hath  laid siege against us: they shall smite the judge of Israel
with a rod upon the cheek.
MIC 5:2  But thou, Bethlehem  Ephratah,  though  thou  be  little
among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth
unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose  goings  forth  have
been from of old, from everlasting.
MIC 5:3  Therefore will he give them up, until the time that  she
which  travaileth  hath  brought  forth:  then the remnant of his
brethren shall return unto the children of Israel.

And Micah goes on talking about a military conquest of Assyria and the
gentiles.  Doesn't sound a lot like the Prince of Peace...


	James J. Lippard writes:
	"	A second claimed birth prophecy is that Jesus would be born 
	in the city of Bethlehem, cited in Matthew (2:1-6), Luke (2:4-7), 
	and John's (7:42) gospels.  Of these, Matthew and John 
	specifically refer to prophecy in the Hebrew scriptures.  The 
	passage referred to is Micah 5:2, which reads:  "But as for you, 
	Bethlehem Ephrathah, too little to be among the clans of Judah, 
	from you one will go forth for me to be ruler in Israel.  His 
	goings forth are from long ago, from the days of eternity."  
	"Ephrathah" is the ancient name of Bethlehem (Genesis 35:19, Ruth 
	4:11) but, to confuse matters, "Bethlehem Ephrathah" is also the 
	name of a person:  Bethlehem the son (or grandson) of Ephrathah (1 
	Chronicles 4:4, 2:50-51).  This prophecy could therefore refer to 
	either a native of the town or to a descendent of the person.  If 
	the latter, Jesus does not qualify since neither of his alleged 
	genealogies (more on these later) list either Bethlehem or 
	Ephrathah.  If the former (more likely since Bethlehem was the 
	birthplace of King David, from whom the Messiah is supposed to be 
	descended), then Jesus qualifies by birthplace(2), but fails to 
	meet the condition of being "ruler in Israel."  Christians claim that 
	this is a prophecy which will be fulfilled at the Second Coming."
	...
	"The gospel of John says nothing about Jesus being from 
	Bethlehem, but instead says that he is from Nazareth in Galilee.  
	See John 1:45-46 and 7:41-42,52.3There are two common attempts 
	made to resolve these contradictions.  The most common among 
	evangelical Christians is to claim that Luke's genealogy is that 
	of Mary, not Joseph.  This fails to explain the repeated 
	convergence followed by divergence as you trace the ancestry 
	backward.  It also fails to explain why the Luke genealogy 
	contains almost twice as many ancestors as Matthew's in the same 
	time period.  A second explanation is that each case of divergence 
	is the result of Levirate marriage.  That is, the discrepant 
	fathers are brothers of each other, and when one died the other 
	married his brother's wife.  This explanation also fails to 
	explain the difference in number of ancestors."
}		       11. presented with gifts

PSA 72:10  The kings of Tarshish and of  the  isles  shall  bring
presents: the kings of Sheba and Seba shall offer gifts.
PSA 72:11  Yea, all kings shall fall down before him: all nations
shall serve him.
PSA 72:12  For he shall deliver the needy  when  he  crieth;  the
poor also, and him that hath no helper.
PSA 72:13  He shall spare the poor and needy, and shall save  the
souls of the needy.

		According to the prophecy, the Kings of Tarshish, the isles,
		Sheba and Seba were suppose to be there.  But no Kings are
		mentioned, just Magi.

And as for the poor:

MAT 26:11  For ye have the poor always with you; but me  ye  have
not always.

MAR 14:7  For ye have the poor with you always, and whensoever ye
will ye may do them good: but me ye have not always.


JOH 12:8  For the poor always ye have with you; but  me  ye  have
not always.

AKA "looking out for number one".

}		       12. Herod kills children
	James J. Lippard writes:
	"	Another prophecy related to the birth of Jesus I wish to 
	address is that the Messiah would be born at a time when King 
	Herod was killing children.  Only the gospel of Matthew (2:16-18) 
	makes this claim about a prophecy of Jeremiah (31:15).  But the 
	prophecy in question states that "A voice was heard in Ramah, 
	weeping and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children; and 
	she refused to be comforted, because they were no more."  "Rachel 
	weeping for her children" refers to the mother of Joseph and 
	Benjamin (and wife of Jacob) weeping about her children taken 
	captive to Egypt.  In context, the verse is about the Babylonian 
	captivity, which its author witnessed.  Subsequent verses speak of 
	the children being returned, and thus it refers to captivity 
	rather than murder.  A further problem is that no historian of the 
	time seems to have taken note of Herod's alleged mass slaughter of 
	male children.  Flavius Josephus, who chronicled Herod's abuses, 
	makes no mention of it.
		Matthew goes on to claim that to evade Herod's murders, Jesus 
	was taken as a child to Egypt.  This is done, according to Matthew 
	2:15, in order "that what was spoken by the Lord through the 
	prophet might be fulfilled, saying, 'Out of Egypt did I call my 
	son.'"  This is a reference to Hosea 11:1, which is not a 
	messianic prophecy at all.  It is a reference to the Exodus of the 
	Jews from Egypt."
	COX, RALPH LUTHER, III writes:
	"       After Jesus's birth in Bethlehem, Matthew tells about a
	quick (and elsewhere unmentioned) excursion to Egypt, as if he
	wishes to liken Jesus to Moses.  This was done to escape an
	alleged infanticidal rampage of the king, Herod.

	       [Mt 2.15]  ...and remained there until the death of
	       Herod.  This was to fulfil what the lord had spoken:
	       "Out of Egypt I have cal-led my son."


	What the lord really said was this.

	       [Hosea 11.1]  When Israel was a child, I loved him. 
	       And, out of Egypt I called my son.  The more I called
	       them (my people), the more they went from me; they
	       kept sacrificing to the Ba'als, and kept burning
	       incense to idols.

	Matthew conveniently omits the rest of Hosea's oracle.  But, it
	was indeed Israel that, once called out of Egypt, wanted to
	return.  This is history.  Jesus is certainly not being spoken of
	here.  And, if we are to draw some kind of parallel here, we wind
	up with a Jesus that flees and resists G'd.   Again, this prophecy
	is just not as convincing as Matthew probably had hoped.
	...
	       As for Herod and his infanticide, it is rather unlikely
	that such an event actually occurred.  One never knows, but the
	event is not mentioned or alluded to anywhere else in the Bible,
	nor is it mentioned in any of the secular records of the time. 
	Herod was particularly unliked in his reign, and many far less
	evil deeds of Herod were carefully recorded.  This might be a
	prime example of how events were added to Jesus's life to enhance
	the message of the church's gospel."
}		       13. his pre-existence
		Now how the heck are we suppose to tell that?!?!?
		Interestingly enough, reincarnation also would fit the
		prophecy.  Reincarnation was a not-uncommon belief
		at the time/place.  Besides which, his "prophecy" is:

MIC 5:2  But thou, Bethlehem  Ephratah,  though  thou  be  little
among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth
unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose  goings  forth  have
been from of old, from everlasting.

Which doesn't, to me, appear to have anything to do with it.

}		       14. he shall be called Lord
	COX, RALPH LUTHER, III writes:
	"The word "lord" is often mistakenly capitalised by Christian
	bibles to denote divinity in this lord.  But, in the Hebrew, the
	word is "adoni," and no capitalisation exists.  Adoni simply means
	"lord," a generic term as we would use it.  It is used often in
	the scriptures to refer to kings and to G'd.  It is merely an
	address of respect.  
	      There is nothing in the text itself to imply that the word
	refers either to divinity or to the messiah-king."
}		       15. shall be Immanuel (God with us)
	James J. Lippard writes:
		Another problem is that nowhere in the New Testament does 
	Mary, Jesus' mother, refer to him as "Immanuel."  Thus we have no 
	evidence that one of the conditions of the prophecy was ever 
	fulfilled.
}		       16. shall be a prophet
		This isn't saying much.  Almost EVERYONE seemed to qualify
		themself.
}		       17. priest
PSA 110:3  Thy people shall be willing in the day of  thy  power,
in  the  beauties  of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou
hast the dew of thy youth.
PSA 110:4  The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou  art  a
priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.
PSA 110:5  The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through  kings
in the day of his wrath.
PSA 110:6  He shall judge among the heathen, he  shall  fill  the
places  with  the dead bodies; he shall wound the heads over many
countries.
PSA 110:7  He shall drink of the  brook  in  the  way:  therefore
shall he lift up the head.

Sounds more like a temporal ruler, and a not-too-friendly one at that.  Lotsa 
wrath, striking, dead bodies, wounds, and such.  And where else has this order
been mentioned?  I can find ONE:

GEN 14:17  And the king of Sodom went out to meet him  after  his
return  from the slaughter of Chedorlaomer, and of the kings that
were with him, at the valley of Shaveh, which is the king's dale.
GEN 14:18  And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread  and
wine: and he was the priest of the most high God.
GEN 14:19  And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of  the
most high God, possessor of heaven and earth:
GEN 14:20  And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered
thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.

So it looks like a very temporal priest-king, heavy on slaughter, feasts,
and such.  Apparently like others in the area.  And egypt, too, if I recall.
priest-kings have been popular.


}		       18. judge
ISA 33:20  Look upon Zion, the city  of  our  solemnities:  thine
eyes  shall  see  Jerusalem a quiet habitation, a tabernacle that
shall not be taken down; not one of the stakes thereof shall ever
be removed, neither shall any of the cords thereof be broken.
ISA 33:21  But there the glorious LORD will be unto us a place of
broad  rivers  and streams; wherein shall go no galley with oars,
neither shall gallant ship pass thereby.
ISA 33:22  For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is  our  lawgiver,
the LORD is our king; he will save us.
ISA  33:23   Thy  tacklings  are  loosed;  they  could  not  well
strengthen  their  mast,  they could not spread the sail: then is
the prey of a great spoil divided; the lame take the prey.
ISA 33:24  And the inhabitant shall not say, I am sick: the  peo-
ple that dwell therein shall be forgiven their iniquity.
ISA 34:1  Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people:
let  the  earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all
things that come forth of it.
ISA 34:2  For the indignation of the LORD is  upon  all  nations,
and  his  fury  upon  all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed
them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.
ISA 34:3  Their slain also shall be cast  out,  and  their  stink
shall  come  up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be
melted with their blood.
ISA 34:4  And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and  the
heavens  shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host
shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as  a
falling fig from the fig tree.
ISA 34:5  For my sword shall be  bathed  in  heaven:  behold,  it
shall  come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to
judgment.
ISA 34:6  The sword of the LORD is filled with blood, it is  made
fat with fatness, and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the
fat of the kidneys of rams: for the  LORD  hath  a  sacrifice  in
Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea.
ISA 34:7  And the unicorns shall come down  with  them,  and  the
bullocks  with  the  bulls;  and  their land shall be soaked with
blood, and their dust made fat with fatness.
ISA 34:8  For it is the day of the LORD's vengeance, and the year
of recompences for the controversy of Zion.
ISA 34:9  And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and
the  dust  thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall be-
come burning pitch.
ISA 34:10  It shall not be quenched  night  nor  day;  the  smoke
thereof  shall  go  up for ever: from generation to generation it
shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.
ISA 34:11  But the cormorant and the bittern  shall  possess  it;
the  owl  also  and  the  raven  shall  dwell in it: and he shall
stretch out upon it the line of confusion, and the stones of emp-
tiness.
ISA 34:12  They shall call the nobles thereof to the kingdom, but
none shall be there, and all her princes shall be nothing.
ISA 34:13  And thorns shall come up in her palaces,  nettles  and
brambles in the fortresses thereof: and it shall be an habitation
of dragons, and a court for owls.
ISA 34:14  The wild beasts of the desert shall also meet with the
wild beasts of the island, and the satyr shall cry to his fellow;
the screech owl also shall rest there, and  find  for  herself  a
place of rest.
ISA 34:15  There shall the great owl make her nest, and lay,  and
hatch, and gather under her shadow: there shall the vultures also
be gathered, every one with her mate.
 

It is clear to me (in context) that they are NOT referring to any
Prince of Peace but a vicious, but a warrior/king.


		Claimed to fit, but not demonstrated.
}		       19. king
		Obviously not.  Making the claim and not being able to
		back it up is what was claimed to have gotten him terminated.
}		       20. special anointment of Holy Spirit
		"Annointed One" means messiah.  There were numerous
		announced contenders at the time.
}		       21. his zeal for God
		How is this suppose to serve as an identifier?  Besides
		which, the term was in the "prophecy" but not in his given
	"fulfilment" verse.  Now the prophecy:
PSA 69:5  O God, thou knowest my foolishness; and my sins are not
hid from thee.
PSA 69:6  Let not them that wait on thee, O Lord GOD of hosts, be
ashamed  for  my sake: let not those that seek thee be confounded
for my sake, O God of Israel.
PSA 69:7  Because for thy sake I have borne reproach; shame  hath
covered my face.
PSA 69:8  I am become a stranger unto my brethren, and  an  alien
unto my mother's children.
PSA 69:9  For the zeal of thine house hath eaten me up;  and  the
reproaches of them that reproached thee are fallen upon me.
PSA 69:10  When I wept, and chastened my soul with fasting,  that
was to my reproach.
PSA 69:11  I made sackcloth also my garment; and I became a  pro-
verb to them.
PSA 69:12  They that sit in the gate speak against me; and I  was
the song of the drunkards.
PSA 69:13  But as for me, my prayer is unto thee, O LORD,  in  an
acceptable time: O God, in the multitude of thy mercy hear me, in
the truth of thy salvation.
PSA 69:14  Deliver me out of the mire, and let me not  sink:  let
me  be  delivered from them that hate me, and out of the deep wa-
ters.


Any question who prayed in psalms, and who thought he was foolish, 
zealous for the Lord, wore sackcloth, fasted, ...?  Still think
that it was Jesus?



I can go on with trash concerning "his minestry" and "his death".
Equally silly.