From: payner@netcom.com (Rich Payne)
Newsgroups: alt.feminism,rec.humor
Subject: Re: Feminist Jokes
Date: 10 Nov 92 02:52:32 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)

In article <ZWSSB25F@cc.swarthmore.edu> auer@cs.swarthmore.edu (David S. Auer) writes:
>In article <1992Nov5.185722.19518@netcom.com> payner@netcom.com (Rich Payne) writes:
[opps, attribute deleted]
>RP>>Does this actually mean -anything-? Does this "power balance" argument mean
>RP>>anything, anything at all?
>DSA>Yes, there are more men in positions of control over the lives of other people.
>
>RP>Like the porni imbalance being discussed, what is the significance? Can you
>RP>show a single example of such a balance, anywhere, anytime? I make the 
>RP>observation that this is probably not a stable point, as personal and
>RP>group differences will tend to destabalize any such balance. Can you show that
>RP>it is a realisitic and/or meaningful concept? 
>
>It is both.  You acknowledge with your claims their is an imbalance.

No, I only acknowledge that man purchase more porn than women. I have decided
to not use the word balance, as it makes unsubstantiated implications.

>Injustice is clearly present, realistic, and meaningful.  

No, it is -not- clearly present. It's presence has yet to be demonstrated.

>                                                       Balance/instice is
>the negation of this concept.  Thus it is meaningful. 

No, neither has been demonstrated. Repeatedly claimed is accurate.

>Rousseau spoke of
>justice as a torch to be approached.  Plato futzed about with his forms.  For
>as long as humanity has existed we have had ideals.  I am sure you have an
>ideal or two yourself.  Ideals are what individuals strive towards.  It is
>what makes humans great and life livable.  Even if we doubt whether our goals
>may be attained, our striving and struggle gives our lives meaning and
>pleasure.  What can be more realistic than that?

How about some realistic connection between balance, injustice, and the
fact that men buy more porn than women.
 
>RP>>Can you show me one example in all of human history where there was any
>RP>>sort of a power balance between, or even among the sexes?
>DSA>No.
>
>RP>Do you claim that this is strictly and only the result of discrimination
>RP>and prejudice?
>
>I would be a fool to let you put such vacuous statements in my mouth.  It is
>the ways things are and ever will be. (Until the Messiah comes, whatever.)
>The fact that complete justice and balance is not necessarily attainable by
>humans.  (Though perhaps it might be.  Anyone could be the Messiah.)  This
>fact does not release us from our responsibility to strive for that which is
>better and more just.

Or that which is meaningless, but still politically correct. 
 
>RP>>Please do. Tell me what this means. If it means that reality does
>RP>>not conform to your expectations, I got news for ya, it never will. And
>RP>>more news, it ain't the way I'd prefer it either.
>DSA>Not my expectations.  My notions of justice.
>
>RP>Notions of justice change over time. I suspect this is why we will never
>RP>see justice. Ideals evolve faster than societies.
>
>This does not either release us from our obligations.  

But it does illustrate that justice is not an absolute. And more than just
across time, your justice may be an injustice to me, today.

>                                                  Just because someone
>else held different ideas than you do, does that mean you are willing to
>forsake these beliefs?  Of course not.  

Nor does it mean that I am obligated to live by them. In fact, I may
find your beliefs actively wrong for me. 

>I know what is right.  

No, you know what is right for -you-. Do not presume to dictate what is
right for others.

>If you disagree fine. Don't think you can cow me into altering my beliefs 
>with a cheap relativism you don't believe in yourself.

You run roughshod over my beliefs, but yours are sacred. Right...
 
>RP>[...]
>
>DSA>>I look around at the world and I see a lot more injustices directed at
>DSA>>women than men.  Simple observation.  From that I decide that the
>DSA>>injustices should be fought.  I am not perfect nor am I particularly
>DSA>>powerful, thus my impact upon these issues may be small.
>RP>>Well, if you are a male, use some of that "power imbalance" to fix the 
>RP>>problem and stop whining about it. Apologies if I incorrectly assumed
>RP>>that David is a male name.
>
>Your stereotype proved true.  (;
>
>DSA>I would be happy to.  I am not in a position of power though.
>RP>But it is claimed that -all- males have power over -all- females, is it not?
>
>Within reason, yes.  Intentionally or otherwise, you blur the notion of power.

Feminists blur the notion of power.

>The power I was speaking of was the more disciplined, constructive force of
>change.  The power you brought up was the power to intimidate and coerce.

Oh yes, male attributes.

>These are different aspects of power and are non-convertable over the open
>market.

Aspects of -male- power.

[...]
 
>RP>[...]
>RP>If there is a problem, then a solution should be sought. What we have is
>RP>more of a sexist blame game. Fixing the blame can be lucrative, as
>RP>disempowering as victimhood must be. I just have not observed that
>RP>fixing the blame has fixed the problem. 
>
>Some times blame is useful, especially when you have been materially wronged.
>My blaming you, Rich, as a person would be silly and stupid.  Blaming segments
>of the male population for their evil ways is not silly nor stupid, but rather
>the order of the day.

I suggest that you can fix the blame, -or- you can fix the problem. And
fixing the blame has no value.
 
>RP>Rich
>RP>payner@netcom.com
>-dave

Rich again
Newsgroups: alt.feminism