HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: kerry@Ingres.COM (Kerry Kurasaki)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
Subject: Instrument flight minimums - circling
Date: 13 Aug 92 18:14:51 GMT
Reply-To: kerry@Ingres.COM (Kerry Kurasaki)
Organization: Ask Computer Systems Inc., Ingres Division, Alameda CA 94501

In article <1992Aug13.144633.26505@msuinfo.cl.msu.edu> yurkon@rudolf.nscl.msu.edu (John Yurkon) writes:
>
>On my instrument flight test at Jackson, MI I was cleared for an ILS
>approach to runway xx (I forget the runway numbers) and just before
>reaching DH Tower told me to circle to land on the opposite runway.  I
>proceded to circle to land at 200 AGL which upset the examiner,
>fortunately he was more upset with the tower contoller for issuing that
>clearance.  I then climbed to the circle to land MDA.  Everything else
>went smoothly and I passed.
>

This is a good way to get killed.

Obstruction clearance is not guaranteed below the cirling MDA (plus a
safety margin).  Furthermore, most missed instructions usually start
with "climb to xxx" before beginning any turns.  You should track
the localizer outbound before beginning your turn.

Descending below the MDA is predicated on visual references for
obstruction avoidance and only during that time during "normal"
maneuvering which I interpret roughly as to not descend below 500 AGL
(or the MDA if lower) until established on final.

At DA/DH, your choices are: 1) runway environment in-sight, flight
visibility above minimums, and aircraft in landing configuration, land
the airplane, 2) BEGIN the missed approach procedure, or 3) continue
the approach to 100' ATDZE if you have the approach lighting in sight.
I think you'd be hard pressed to prove that circling at 200 AGL is
within "normal rate of descent" and "normal maneuvers".

On a non-precision approach, you level off at the MDA and look for
the field.  Your decision point is at a DME fix, a crossfix, or
when your time expires.

An earlier instructor I had told me a story of a Airline/Commuter
captain who would descend to the DA on the ILS, then climb up to
the cirling altitude to circle.  Eventually, his copilot(s) turned
him in and the FAA busted him.  Don't know what happened after.

Kerry
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
From: rex@eng.umd.edu (Rex Root)
Subject: Re: Small crash / Chrokee Question
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 92 19:45:01 GMT
Organization: College of Engineering, University of Maryland, College Park

In article <66392@hydra.gatech.EDU> gt9989a@prism.gatech.EDU (John Martin Chapman) writes:
>Today in Gwinett County, Georgia, there was a small plane crash involving a
>Cherokee 160.  1 person was killed and 4 were injured.  My question(s) is/are
>this.  I got my first 40 or so hours in a Cherokee 180 I think.  I know the
>more common Cherokee is the 140.  The one I trained in had 4 seats, and the 
>140 has four seats.  So  if I am remembering correctly, and a 160 is just a
>variant of the 140 (having 4 seats) isn't the fact that 5 people were in the
>plane probable cause for the crash? Or is a 160 the Cherokee 6?
>
You may want to double check your source of info ... it may be a typo. The 
Piper Warrior, a cheroke 160, only has seating for 4 ... unless one were
to stick 3 children in the rear seats, But then the center child would
be without a seat belt.


Newsgroups: rec.aviation
From: davea@col.hp.com (Dave Allen)
Subject: Re: Where oh where is mpuckett?
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 18:38:05 GMT
Organization: HP Colorado Springs Division

phil@eecs.nwu.edu (William LeFebvre) HAS WRITTEN:
> There seem to be some people on this list that are absolutely adamant
> about expressing their own ideas as fact, and to hell with everyone else.

Well said, Bill.
Seems every third article any more starts with something like
"BOY ARE YOU WRONG/CONFUSED/STUPID/LOW-TIME..."

That's when I stop reading that article. If YOU want me (and I daresay
most others) to read your article, give it a better start than that.
Let's avoid reinforcing the rumor that pilots are the biggest egotistical
BLEEP!s in the world. :-)

The net is running about 5% interesting, a new low. EVERYBODY has to comment
- most saying the same thing. Seemingly endless debate and re-hash over
stuff that doesn't matter. Oh that we would put as much effort into trimming
quotes and proofreading.

Maybe it's just summer and too many people have too much time.
We don't need to split rec.av by topics, just split off rec.av.flames
and "them that want", can, and "them that don't" won't wear out their
'n' key. :-) Thanks for listening.

dave allen - Fly because you love it.
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
From: reece@eco.twg.com (Reece R. Pollack)
Subject: Re: DME Questions
Reply-To: reece@eco.twg.com (Reece R. Pollack)
Organization: The Wollongong Group (East Coast Operations)
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 92 17:32:54 GMT


In article <1992Aug17.183024.14871@mksol.dseg.ti.com>, carruth@mksol.dseg.ti.com (matthew carruth) writes:
|>It is possible to id DME the same way a VOR or NDB can be handled.  I have
|>several questions about this:

I'll venture some answers, but I make no claims of infaliability.

|>1) Why is it almost never done?

Most of the time, DME is used as an adjunct to other navigation references.
I really don't bother IDing the station if I'm just trying to get an idea
of my ground speed while flying VFR.

If DME is being used as a primary navigation reference, as in VOR/DME or
ILS/DME approaches, or for DME arcs, I'd think you'd better ID the station.
The presence of the ID is the only way to tell if the station is still
officially in service.

|>2) Is the ID on the same carrier as the VOR signal?

I don't believe so. There's an odd beast down in North Carolina called an
NDB/DME (really!), and you sure can't ID that from a VOR carrier. DME is
in the UHF band, and I think the ID is broadcast on the UHF carrier.

|>3) Is the ID the same as the VOR signal, but at different rate?

A DME id only repeats 1/4th as fast as a VOR id, and is a higher audio pitch.

|>4) Is the lack of indication on a DME display a valid indication of
|>   an unreliable signal and vice versa?

This one I'm sure about, since it's on the Instrument Exam. If you don't
have a distance display, that's a pretty good indication that you're not
getting a reliable signal. The time and speed display may lag, though, as
that's calculated from the change in distance over time.

A stable DME display is NOT a valid indication that the DME is usable. The
station may be out of service, or being worked on, and the ONLY way to tell
that the station is out of service (short of a NOTAM, of course) is by the
lack of the station ID. If you don't check for the ID, you won't know.

--
Reece R. Pollack
PP-ASEL -- Octopus Flying Club (based GAI)
Recovering from the -IA written exam...
From: barney@sol.usc.edu (Barney Lum)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
Subject: Re: TRSA's
Date: 21 Aug 1992 19:32:19 -0700
Organization: USC University Computing Services, Los Angeles
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.usc.edu

Greg Travis and Jim Lyon explain that TRSA vs non-TRSA difference is mostly
from the point-of-view of the controller..  Thanks, guys.  No wonder I hadn't 
really noticed one from my point of view in the sky.  I just like to 
bother everyone enroute and let them deal with me as appropriate :).

Their remarks about "Stage III for participating acft" reminds me of something
a Palm Springs controller explained to me.  Their (TRSAs) seperation criteria 
are more stringent than an ARSA.  They require 3  miles lateral and 500'(?) 
vertical,  whereas ARSAs require only that the targets don't "touch", with 
the same (500') vertical seperation.  I didn't know at the time to ask
if the 3 miles would be waived if pilot(s) had visual contact with
their traffic.

When AOPA's convention was there in 1990, PSP had their hands full when
hoards of planes tried to depart at/near the same time;  clearance delivery 
freq. was jammed.  We managed to phone our in request then pass the handset 
to the next pilot .... and so on down the line.  ClearanceD (or ground) then 
radioed down the queue for engine start.  

Once ready for takeoff, controllers were obligated to provide Stage III
service (ie 3 miles seperation) unless the the pilot explicitly declined
it ("Negative Stage III").  As it were, many pilots were not aware of that 
and thus had to wait.. and wait.. before being cleared for takeoff.

And now a few words from our sponsor:
   TVL UA /OV FAT-SWR (Fresno-Squaw Valley/Tahoe) /TM 1840/FL115/TP PA28
          /TB MDT /RM CONT 105-135 A REAL BUTT BUSTER-INTERESTIN

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
              >|            
              >|      barney@usc.edu  Barney@USCVM
 -->  -->  --> |   =======    ---    ---    ---    ---    ---   ---    ---  
              >|      Permanent Student Pilot, On the Numbers   
              >|
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: mpucket@jacobs.CS.ORST.EDU (Margaret Puckette)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
Subject: No more angry loggers
Summary: ...in the forest, that is
Keywords: court injunctions, firefighters, the DEA
Date: 21 Aug 92 05:13:05 GMT
Followup-To: rec.aviation
Organization: Computer Science Outreach Services - Oregon State University


In article <1992Aug18.200816.1319@odin.corp.sgi.com> amazon@sgi.com (Stormwind) writes:
>
>... i remain concerned about the 
>safety of repeatedly flying a plane over 
>angry loggers (diane fossey springs to mind)...


This has been an amazing summer.  The courts have put injunctions
against the sale and harvest of all public lands in owl habitat areas
for an indefinite period--the US Forest Service and the Bureau of
Land Management were found guilty of not following the law!  This
could all change, of course, but the only thing out in the forests
now are fire fighters and the DEA.

Yup.  The Drug Enforcement Authority.  There's more than trees out
in them thar hills, there's a huge cash crop of *weed* that's getting
ready to harvest, and those 'farmers' are a mean bunch of folks!
They hide booby-trapped gardens in national forest lands and guard
their crop against the Feds.

The airport has been abuzz with activity, mostly black helicopters
filled with men wearing camouflage and carrying assault rifles.  They
bring their own fuel in large military vehicles, order hero sandwiches
by the case, and lurk behind serious countenances.  This is scary.
Angry loggers are nothing compared to this (and to their credit:
to date, no serious violence has been committed in the environmental
conflict on either side).

********************************************************************
Margaret "Keep Oregon Green (with trees)" Puckette
AOPA Archer N1939G
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
From: rjg@umnstat.stat.umn.edu (Robert J. Granvin)
Subject: Re: Warbirds over Seattle
Organization: School of Statistics, University of Minnesota
Distribution: na
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 02:41:24 GMT

In article <1992Aug13.205216.2280@newshost.lanl.gov> mwj@beta.lanl.gov (William Johnson) writes:
>
>Just got back from a vacation in Washington state, where I was surprised Monday
>by what certainly looked like a B-29 and B-24 flying wingtip-to-wingtip over
>the north end of Seattle.  It made me want to cry ...  Anybody know what those
>old warbirds were doing there?  Did we miss an airshow (in which case I *will*
>probably cry!)?

Fifi (B-29) and Diamond Lil (LB-30) are heading towards the Boeing plant
for some 50th anniversary.  I should know these details, but I don't.  :-(

You can call CAF headquarters for details on the tour.  They may direct
you to the squadron itself, however.  CAF HQ is 915/563-1000.  And yes,
they'll be appearing at shows as well.

(Fifi has been fighting new engines all year.  It's nice to hear she's
actually made it back to the air...)

-- 
Robert J. Granvin                                       School of Statistics
rjg@umnstat.stat.umn.edu                             University of Minnesota
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
From: sims@sauron.msfc.nasa.gov (Herb Sims)
Subject: Re: One-way Ride Needed to Florida before 08/25/92
Organization: NASA/MSFC
Distribution: usa
Date: 20 Aug 92 12:01:47 GMT

heiser@ferrari.nmc.ed.ray.com (Bill Heiser) writes:

>-- 
>* Happiness is a hot boiled lobster with drawn butter, a side dish of hot     *
>* fresh steamers with melted butter & a hot corn on the cob with butter & salt*

Geese, cholesterol city!!!!!!!!
From: dmcleod@ducvax.auburn.edu
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
Subject: Re: Heard on the air (was: "remain clear of the ARSA...")
Date: 12 Aug 92 19:26:20 GMT

In article <1992Aug11.164534.6150@aero.org>, lmiller@aero.org (Lawrence H. Miller) writes:
> In article <1992Aug11.025411.12939@xymox.palo-alto.ca.us> philf@xymox.palo-alto.ca.us (Phil Fernandez) writes:
>>
>>Heard on the air last weekend while IFR PAO->MYF, while talking to the
>>Coast Approach departure sector for SNA:
>>
>>UAL:  "Coast Approach, this is United, ahhh, United, ummmm...just a
>>       sec.  Coast, this is United, lessee, United, ahhh, United 634,
>>       2300 for one-three-thousand."
>>
>>I kid you not.  Sometimes I do my best *not* to sound like the big
>>iron.  :)
> 
> 
> 	This is surprisingly common.  A friend of mine used to
> 	be a 737 captain on Western airlines.  He was flying
> 	routes out of LA that had as many as 8 legs in a day,
> 	often each with a different flight number.  You can 
> 	imagine their confusion at the end of the day.  We lowly
> 	GA pilots have the N number enscribed on a little plaque
> 	staring us in the face for the whole trip.

It's been a few years since I saw the cockpit of an airliner but I have
seen several that had a large dial on the yoke showing the flight number
in big numbers.  It would seem to make a lot of sense for pilots flying
a lot of different flights daily.

- David McLeod
- dmcleod@ducvax.auburn.edu
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
From: phil@eecs.nwu.edu (William LeFebvre)
Subject: Re: Good speakers, fuel management. (was: Osh sig haps)
Organization: EECS Department, Northwestern University
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 22:40:14 GMT

In article <1992Aug12.173152.2522@ccad.uiowa.edu>, yiannis@ccad.uiowa.edu (Yiannis Papelis) writes:
|> In some article  harlow@chinet.chi.il.us (Steven A Harlow) writes:
|> >
|> >FAA safety seminar.
|> >The speaker I remember only by his selfassigned title
|> >of "His Airworthyness".
|> >He is a Big Iron pilot who gave a humorous and practical talk on
|> >weather.
|> 
|> I watched a talk from this guy on fuel management once.  Very easy
|> to remember "His Airworthyness" but can't remember his namy, anybody
|> knows ?

I believe that would be Alan Englehardt.  Great speaker, and well
worth seeing.  He talks at many aviation safety seminars (at least
around here he does).

		William LeFebvre
		Computing Facilities Manager and Analyst
		Department of Electrical Engineering and Computer Science
		Northwestern University
		<phil@eecs.nwu.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
From: david@infopro.com (David Fiedler)
Subject: AirLifeLine Needs Pilots (please read; regular posting)
Organization: "InfoPro Systems: Writers, Consultants, and Dragons"
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 92 23:30:06 GMT

                      ATTENTION PRIVATE PILOTS

               Do *You* Want to Make a Difference???
                 A difference in someone's life?  

That is what AirLifeLine is all about.  

We are a non-profit charitable organization of almost 600 private pilots 
nationwide who donate their time, skills, fuel and aircraft to fly 
medical missions. AirLifeLine pilots have flown over 5,000 missions 
since we began in late 1979, logging over 2,000,000 air miles in service 
to humanity. Our missions include the time-critical transport of medical 
cargo such as whole blood, blood platelets, heart pacemakers, eye 
corneas, human organs for transplantation, and mother's milk -- the only 
source of nutrition that some children's digestive systems can tolerate. 

In addition to the cargo missions, the vast majority of AirLifeLine 
flights involve medical travel for ambulatory patients (no stretcher 
cases) needing treatment or diagnosis at a hospital a distance from 
home. These patients, both adults and children, are able to walk and 
must have their stable physical condition verified, in writing, by their 
doctor. The normal one-way distance for a mission is 500 miles or less. 
All AirLifeLine missions are referred by or screened through a medical 
agency. 

All expenses incurred for flying medical missions are used as itemized 
charitable tax deductions by our pilots. Each year, missions are 
verified by our national office and the pilots determine their 
individual flying costs. 

There is a CRITICAL need for private pilots in your state. The national 
office is receiving frequent calls from medical agencies, on behalf of 
local families who have been devastated by a serious illness or injury. 
Won't you please utilize your skills and love of flying to make a 
positive difference in someone's life? 

If you own or have access to an aircraft, have flown a minimum of 200 
hours as PIC and would like to help, please call or write the National 
AirLifeLine office for a pilot information packet. The benefits general 
aviation pilots give to mankind, through AirLifeLine, are impressive. 
Through the end of October 1991, 640 missions were flown so far this 
year logging 241,199 miles in humanitarian service. Contact AirLifeLine 
and become a part of our team. 

AirLifeLine, 1716 X Street, Sacramento, CA 95818, phone 916-446-0995
-- 
David Fiedler    UUCP:{netcomsv,utoday}!infopro!david               AIR: N3717R
"The future is tekon."   Internet: david@infopro.com or david@utoday.com 
USMail:InfoPro Systems, PO Box 220 Rescue CA 95672 Phone:916/677-5870 FAX:-5873
From: bruno@hpldsla.sid.hp.com (Bruno Bienenfeild)
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 16:40:16 GMT
Subject: Re: Soaring school Locations?
Organization: HP Scientific Instruments Division - Palo Alto, CA
Newsgroups: rec.aviation

Try "Soar 
Minden" 702-782-7627 or " High country soaring" also in Minden 702-782-4944
For list of all Instruction facilities call: Soaring Society of America
505 392 1177

from the log of AA6AD
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
From: greg@saltydog.dpsi.com (Gregory R. Travis)
Subject: Re: TRSA's
Organization: Data Parallel Systems, Inc
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 18:45:57 GMT

In <l98cksINNkl5@sol.usc.edu> barney@sol.usc.edu (Barney Lum) writes:

>What I'm not really sure of is why Terminal Radar Service Areas exist in 
>the first place.  Is it something political?  Something to denote the 
>amount/type of traffic at a particular airport?  Conversely, why
>aren't all facilities with radar denoted as TRSA's?

>It seems to me that "TRSA" was just something to officially state that radar 
>services *are* available.  Since participation is voluntary,  I don't know 
>why the dimensions (vertical and lateral) vary or are even depicted on 
>charts.  I'd think that one "block" of airspace up to a certain altitude 
>would be sufficient in that respect.  If not participating, then 
>aircraft could legally just fly by Airport Traffic Area rules.  If
>landing, bypassing the Approach controller and sequencing/seperation
>probably isn't all that nice.

>What does it mean when a TRSA doesn't exist?  There are numerous airports 
>with what could be considered "Stage III" services, but which don't have 
>a TRSA/ARSA/WhateverRadarServiceArea.  Examples are Bakersfield, CA, 
>NAS Lemoore, NAS Pt. Mugu and Vandenberg AFB, all of whom regularly provide  
>flight following/advisories.

Add Terre Haute (Hulman Approach) to the list of facilities that provide
radar services but are not depicted as ARSAs/TRSAs/TCAs/etc...

I believe that TRSAs are areas in which stage III separation, if requested
by the aircraft, are mandatory for the approach controller.  For example,
I could be landing at Terre Haute and call up approach control thusly:

"Hulman Approach, N5457E, Landing Hulman request stage III"

I could then be denied stage III and simply told to contact the tower.

However, if I were within the confines of the Harrisburg, PA TRSA and requested
it (with the intention of landing at Harrisburg - important), the
approach controller would be legally bound to provide sequencing and
separation between my aircraft, IFR aircraft, and PARTICIPATING VFR
aircraft within the TRSA.  In that sense, it's just like an ARSA except that
it's larger and there are aircraft that may not be participating.

greg
--
Gregory Reed Travis				D  P  S  I
Data Parallel Systems Incorporated   greg@dpsi.com (For MX mailers only!)
Bloomington, IN			     greg@indiana.edu (For the others)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
From: ginsberg@t.Stanford.EDU (Matthew L. Ginsberg)
Subject: Re: Where oh where is mpuckett?
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 17:09:20 GMT

In article <1992Aug14.155939.16628@eecs.nwu.edu> phil@eecs.nwu.edu
(William LeFebvre) writes:

>  Some people on this list
>acted absolutely DEPLORABLY during the spin discussion/argument/flame fest.
>There seem to be some people on this list that are absolutely adamant
>about expressing their own ideas as fact, and to hell with everyone else.
>Well folks, flying knowledge and technique are important, yes.  But
>another person's *feelings* are far more important.

I suspect that Bill is including me in the list of deplorable ones
here, so let me take a minute to reply.

First, I disagree that people's feelings are far more important than
flying knowledge and technique.  The "do bad, feel good" attitudes of
the 80's don't make for happy pilots.  They make for dead pilots.

That said, there are two things that I believe deserve criticism in
a forum as public as this one:

1.  Messages implying that FAR violations are OK (e.g., flying without
lights at night).

2.  Messages stating "facts" that are false (e.g., a stalled wing
produces zero lift).

The criticism should be sharper -- but always reasoned -- if the
implication of the message is potentially dangerous (as it was in each
of the above two cases) and/or the poster is an authority figure of
some kind (a CFI or, in the case of aerobatic flying, even I probably
qualify).

That said, let me add that I miss mpuckett's contributions to this
bboard as well.  I respect her opinions and postings and hope the fact
that none of us will ever be above criticism doesn't keep her away for
too long ...

						Matt Ginsberg