From: J.Ainikkal@massey.ac.nz (J. Ainikkal)
Subject: Re: More About India
Summary: Human rights or Womyn rights
Keywords: Human rights or Womyn rights
Organization: Massey University, Palmerston North, New Zealand
X-Reader: NETNEWS/PC Version 2c
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 92 22:33:10 GMT

Ms D'Cruz writes:

>If, we the highly educated indians who have made it here and use
>this forum, can force other indians in subtle ways, to keep out,
>what does it imply ?

There were no subtle hints to leave the net - only to debate the
underlying issue where U implied that  'Indian womyn are unhappy in
India'. I would be the last person to try and get U off the net
only 'cause I enjoy reading your news postings. 

>I don't think we are ready to respect the views of our fellow
>human beings. We want to hear only what we want. We don't want
>nettors like Sylvia, breaking our rhythm, our style, our
>dominance. Get her out.

A debate expressing viewpoints is far from trying to throw U out of
this place. Earlier someone on this very net gave me some serious
advice 'If U can't handle the heat get out of the kitchen'. 

You do not start something here and expect all nettors to blindly
accept your point of view.

>to get done for India, expecially, if at every step of the way, I
>have to battle and prove my intentions to these guys. I may have
>given up my dreams, but that does not mean that I do not love my
>country. As some of you wrongly jumped to that conclusion. 

Your postings and these statements somehow contradict each other.

>Maybe this is a Goodbye to SCI. 

Don't kid yourself. You will be back.

>another one's gone. And, many more to go............

More conjecture??

>The thread started off with eve teasing in India and the women in
>the workplace in India. When I referred to the above aspects of
>the life of an Indian women, I mentioned I would not go back, to
>India, life is definitely much better for me, in my case here.
>Maybe it is different for other Indian women who are here. Each
>one is free to make their choices.

I am not too sure about your earlier postings and these statements.

>Basically, you did your level best to convince me that my choice
>is wrong. 

Far from the truth. All I tried to do was tell U that 'all womyn in
India are not unhappy'.

>There are no absolutes, right or wrong, we go through life
>weighing the pros and cons, which are different in each case and
>make our choices. 

No shit !!

>Maybe, I did not get the message across clear enough, that is my
>mistake. I also, made some generalizations, as pointed out by
>atleast two nettors, with respect to the Indian male. Indian men
>who know me personally, will know that it is not what I meant. I
>have associated with a lot of Indian men over here and in India
>over the years, both professionally and socially. Many have molded
>and shaped my life and I respect and cherish the friendship of
>quite a few.

An easy way to justify our prejudices is to make all these claims.
When we crack jokes on racism, homosexuality etc.etc. our immediate
reaction, when challenged, is to say how we have this close friend
who is - black, white, brown, homosexual etc. So what is your
point. 

>I don't need to get hate mail. 

I am sorry that U did. I received some hate mail from some dickhead
named Nanda once. That pathetic person did not/could not express
himself/herself on the net. 

A word of advice - ignore such mail.

>I don't need to be labelled a "feminist" 

IMO, the only aspect where feminism screwed up was - In a male
dominated world they are turning out more masculine womyn. IMO,
there is nothing  wrong with being a feminist.


>and I don't need to be considered an "India hater". 

Well then I suggest U should send out different signals. There is
no reason (personal) why U should love India just 'cause U were
born there. 

>My only purpose in posting some of the negatives facing Indian
>women, is to generate awareness, and maybe change some Indian male
>thinking and perspectives. I would like to see Indian women
>treated as individuals with rights and desires, both over here and
>there. I have tried in small ways to better my lot.  Is that wrong
>?

Most of the people on the net are aware of "more evolved" social
habits. This might be wasted here. 

>I wish that what you said was true. And, that the Indian
>government and people were really as hard working as you portray
>them to be, and fighting poverty. 

India has 30-40% of the worlds poor. The violence that U read about
in the paper is a 50-100 people killed every month. On a 'jackpot'
month it might go up to 5-600. But we have 400 to 500 million
people who do not get basic necessities in life. The 'rich' people
and government employees (oops I might be getting into trouble
here) at home might not be hard working, but I am sure that the
exploited, who make the majority, are very hard working. Life in
India does not revolve around B'bay or Bandra.

>The only fighting that is going on to a large scale is communal
>strifes and voilence. Most of the people in India, who even come
>close to putting in real work is the labor force and people in
>private companies.

U almost sound like Ghandhi (M. Ghandhi). IMO, he was fighting
violence, but the wrong one.


>I did not see anyone on this thread mention, that they
>pittied the people in India, or thought they were less happy.

WHAT - I do not believe this.

>I never tried to measure how happy people are at home, I provided
>a viewpoint. The fact is that conditions are pathetic with respect
>to alot of social aspects of the Indian society. Also, there is a
>lot that needs to be done.

Can U believe that some womyn are happy just being at home and
taking care of the house?
Can U believe that womyn do not have to have a career to be happy?
Can U believe that happiness is relative to the person?

The above three questions may sound anti-feministic - but they are
not. All I am trying to say is that all of us search for happiness
in a way that society has made us believe we can reach happiness.
Indian womyn in India might find themselves less socially isolated
and happier with themselves than U are.


>I am being a realist. Whatever happens here, (socially) takes a
>certain number of years to reach India. I am going by the trends
>of the past.

Yes today the Americans are one of the leading civilizations in the
world. India lies on the other end. Your earlier statement said
that, for Indian womyn, India was gonna get worse. You might be
right but the more probable chances are that U are wrong.


|> I have observed that the female gender of Indians seem to pick
|>up
|> the 'foreign' accent faster than males. It would be nice to get
|> some conjecture on this.

>That is because they spend more time listening and observing, than
>talking. 

:):):)


>I wish some of the Indian men did just that, maybe they would get
>to know an Indian women better.

Is that a necessary condition to become happy - getting to know
Indian womyn better.

>Is there any good that comes from Eve Teasing ? From my
>perspective there is none, maybe from your's.

I never argued against the illeffects of eve teasing. But I am also
sure that construction workers etc. in the U.S. whistle and make
comments like - "Hey what a great pair of tits". 
 
>Sylvia D. D'Cruz                                

John Ainikkal
'Aotearoa' - Land of the long white cloud