HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: gavan@elc.mth.uct.ac.za (Gavan Tredoux)
Subject: Re: NY Times credibility (Re: ANC Leadership Wanes)
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 92 16:15:52 GMT
Organization: University of Cape Town
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4

chris@psg.com (Chris Pinkham) writes:
: > Er, you might be a little more cautious when drawing conclusions about
: > a complex situation from an article in the New York Times - that *is*
: > ambitious.
: 
: I actually find the Times to be a very good source of information - it
: provides a lot of in-depth discusion on a lot of issues, and SA is getting
: quite a lot of coverage lately. It's certainly a helluva lot better
: than anything I've seen in SA. Not quite the same as being an eye-witness
: and an expert in SA conflict analysis, but it covers a lot of good ground.
: 
: Tends to gloss over important things like who won the Currie/Castle/Santambank
: cup on occasion though.

I agree, it's a fine paper - better than anything here. However, drawing
all sorts of far-reaching conclusions from it, on the basis of one or even
a couple of articles, is rash and unwise. I'm stating the obvious, but
obviously that should be stated.

Gavan Tredoux
UCT
From: Jim Rosenfield <jnr@igc.apc.org>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
Date: 05 Oct 92 21:37 PDT
Subject: Re: 9/27 Wire stories on hunger
Nf-ID: #R:cdp:1471700153:cdp:1471700155:000:2248
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!jnr    Oct  5 21:37:00 1992


/* Written  9:46 am  Sep 27, 1992 by jnr in cdp:hunger.general */
APn  09/27 1204  Horn-Country Thumbnails

Copyright, 1992. The Associated Press. All rights reserved.

Here is a country-by-country outline of the drought and refugee
crisis in the Horn of Africa:

SOMALIA -- Driven by anarchy and hunger, many of Somalia's 6
million people are on the move. Experts say that is a big reason
so many of them are dying. Relief agencies are trying to deliver
food directly to villages rather than focusing on centralized aid
camps. The idea is to keep people at home rather than waste their
energy in desperate, often fruitless, searches for food. Most
camps for Somalis outside their country have well-organized
operations by now, but the problem is overwhelming. More than
300,000 Somalis are sheltering in Kenya, 400,000 in Ethiopia.

ETHIOPIA -- An estimated 1.5 million Ethiopians died during the
civil war that ousted a Marxist government in 1991 and from
drought and forced relocations of people that overwhelmed the
relief system. In addition to caring for 400,000 Somali refugees,
Ethiopia's struggling young government must see to hundreds of
thousands of its own people displaced first by the civil war and
then the unrest in neighboring Somalia. In the Ogaden, nomads
afflicted by three years of drought have become wards of relief
agencies.

SUDAN -- Nobody knows how many people died in a horrendous
drought in western Sudan in 1984. By 1988, five years after civil
war began, deprivation forced hundreds of thousands of people to
abandon their homes to seek food. At least 250,000 Sudanese died;
some Western relief workers put the figure at 500,000. Both
government and rebels have used food as a weapon, barring
shipments for political reasons. Relief planes have been shot
down, river convoys, trucks and trains attacked.

KENYA -- In little over a year, Kenya's refugee population has
skyrocketed from 14,000 to almost 400,000, mostly because of
anarchy in Somalia. At the same time, severe drought over wide
areas of northern and eastern Kenya have put many Kenyan nomads,
mainly ethnic Somalis, in peril for the first time. 
---------------------------------------------------------------
Used with permission of Associated Press


Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
From: mpinnock@casper.cs.uct.ac.za (M B Pinnock)
Subject: Re: Great Victory in Angola! Savimbi loses elections
Organization: Computer Science Department, University of Cape Town
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 10:54:29 GMT

In <1992Oct3.191133.7938@ac.dal.ca> ckna@ac.dal.ca writes:

>I share Makala's joy on the occassion of the MPLA victory over Savimbi's
>UNITA in the Angolan elections. But I have a lot of reservations about the
>wisdom of legislating UNITA out of existence as Makala suggests. Have we
>forgotten that Savimbi's organisation has all along been an illegal
>organisation that has fought a legitimate government for all these years? To
                              ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The fact that this is the first free and fair election in the  history of
Angola suggests that the MPLA government was far from legitimate in any
democratic sense of the word. Applying your implicit definition of legitimate
to South Africa would make the white Nationalist Party the legitimate
government there. (Which is ludicrous!)


Brian Pinnock

Computer Science Dept.       | Sam! 
University of Cape Town.     | I like green eggs and ham! 
South Africa.                | I do! I like them, Sam-I-am! 
mpinnock@casper.cs.uct.ac.za |                                 Dr. Seuss. 

Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
From: shaze@cs.ubc.ca (Scott Hazelhurst)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
Subject: Re: ANC Leadership Wanes
Date: 4 Oct 92 22:16:43 GMT
Organization: Computer Science, University of B.C., Vancouver, B.C., Canada
NNTP-Posting-Host: pacific.cs.ubc.ca

hllhar01@uctvax.uct.ac.za writes:
>Whilst I am no Inkatha fan, it is quite clear that both the foreign media and
>the local "liberal" press are waging a campaign against this organisation. Most
>articles tend to place the overwhelming burden of blame for the violence in
>Natal and the Witwatersrand on the IFP, whilst ANC violence is either ignored
>all together or attributed to undisciplined elements within the organisation
>("vigilantes"). 

1. "campaign": is this part of your conspiracy theory? Who is part
   of this conspiracy? What are their motives?
2. Possible explanations
   -- Inkatha does have the overwhelming burden of blame
   -- no journalist who has gone to interview Mandela has been beaten
      up

The criticisms you make of the ANC are valid. Harry Gwala's behaviour
is disgraceful and far worse is the ANC's toleration of what he does.
But you two have a convenient tendency to forget history, and the
present violence now takes place as a result of that history
over a period of time where the National Party and Inkatha had
complete control over the relevant law-enforcement and justice
arms of the state, and used that control in such a way that respect
for the law broke down completely. This doesn't justify what the
ANC does: but it does explain why Inkatha is singled out.
From: paul@frcs.Alt.ZA (Paul Nash)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african,sanet.talk.politics,apc.reg.safrica
Subject: Re: Goldstone on Bisho
Date: 1 Oct 92 17:45:22 GMT
Article-I.D.: frcs.1992Oct1.174522.20756
Organization: Free Range Computer Systems CC

Thus spake gavan@elc.mth.uct.ac.za (Gavan Tredoux):

> The Goldstone commission has just released its report on the events
> at Bisho in the Ciskei recently, where some 27 people died after
> a march organized by the ANC was fired on by the Ciskei Defence Force.

	[ ... long attack on the ANC deleted ... ]

It is interesting that, whereas Goldstone attacked the CDF, and called
for criminal prosecution, he called for the ANC to publicly reprimand 
Kasrils.  After all, the CDF _did_ kill 28 people in an ambush, shooting
at least 15 of them in their backs while they tried to run away (and
shooting one of their own number into the process).  

The above notwithstanding, Gavan's view is very clear:  the ANC were in
the wrong, and were to blame, and so get hammered.  Maybe, Gavan, you
should start thinking about the people killed, about the people who
pulled the triggers, and about the people who ordered those triggers
pulled.  Or do you think that anyone who protest against anything in a
manner that might lead to bloodshed (like the Jews in the Warsaw ghetto)
are at fault?  Should they just lie down and be bulldozed by those with
the weapons in case they aggravate them and force them to kill them?

The victim, it would seem, is always wrong, especially if he is a member
of the ANC/SACP/Cosatu, or maybe just wants peace and democracy.
 
 ---=---=---=---=---=---=---=---=---=---=---=---=---=---=---=---=---
 Paul Nash                                         paul@frcs.Alt.ZA
 Box 12475, Onderstepoort, 0110 South Africa         +27-12-5611879

 "Standards are great -- everyone should have one" (Kent Landfield)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
From: pmmst8+@pitt.edu (Paul M Mweene)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
Subject: Re: Great Victory in Angola! Savimbi loses elections
Date: 4 Oct 92 00:56:54 GMT
Organization: University of Pittsburgh

In article <1992Oct3.191133.7938@ac.dal.ca> ckna@ac.dal.ca writes:
>I share Makala's joy on the occassion of the MPLA victory over Savimbi's
>UNITA in the Angolan elections. But I have a lot of reservations about the
>wisdom of legislating UNITA out of existence as Makala suggests. Have we
>forgotten that Savimbi's organisation has all along been an illegal
>organisation that has fought a legitimate government for all these years? To
>force him underground again would be to invite him to engage in the business
>he appears to know best  --- terrorism.
>
>---------------------------- Chris Akuamoah -----------------------------

To tell you the truth Chris, it probably is not the brightest idea by which to
eliminate Savimbi. And infact leaving him an incapacitated opponent as you suggest 
may be the most effective punishment. However I am dismayed by the fact that
this method would probably leave his financiers crafting ways to install him in
power, epecially if the ruling govt did not fit their bill. It would be good
if a way could be found to exact a penalty from the Savimbis and the Buthelezis which was so severe that no African would contemplate betraying us again. 


Makala
From: oguocha@skyfox.usask.ca
Subject: RE: Great Victory in Angola! Savimbi loses elections.
Organization: University of Saskatchewan
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1992 20:09:07 GMT

Hi,
 much as it is good for us to rejoice with you about the return of
democracy to Angola, i wish to point out that there is nothing righteous
about MPLA or UNITA or any of the about 12 political parties that took
part in the just concluded elections in Angola. Many of us are not
unaware of the destruction of human lives and properties that were blat-
antly precipitated on the good people of Angola by these parties during
the electioneering campaign. Moreover, no man is counted righteous except 
by the grace of God. Anyway, let us not preach religion here. 
  Again, it will mean another cycle of civil war if, as you tend to make
us believe, the MPLA decides to 'legislate out' UNITA or any other poli-
tical party into history. Any attempt to do as you have said is not what
democracy means. I am quite sure Angolans would not like to go through 
another 16 years of civil war and chaos. Multiparty system is what gives
vibrancy to democracy. I must tell you, Africans far and wide are tired
of one-party system. People like you should repent and think democracy
in its real sense. UNITA and other small parties should be allowed to
exist along side MPLA, so that the excesses of the latter can be checked.
 Everyone knew from the beginning that no magic would make UNITA win the
last elections. Even Dr Savambi himself knew that. USA and other western
supporters of UNITA knew that also. All everyone was, and is still, inter-
ested in is a new Angola where democracy thrives, where minorities are
given opportunity to contribute to the overall development of Angola.
Dr Savambi and other minority party leaders have a positive role to play
in the new dispensation. And they must be allowed to do just that! Any
attempt to subdue them via the use of bad legislative tactics will mean
more trouble for Angola. We want peace in Angola. We want no more wars!
Enough is enough. Democracy must be allowed to survive in Africa if we
are sure we are looking for genuine political and economic survival.
 Long live Angola! Long live MPLA! Long live UNITA! Long live other
Minority Parties!!! Long live Africa!!!! Angola must survive. May God
help us all to build a better Angola and a better Africa.
From: yodaiken@chelm.cs.umass.edu (victor yodaiken)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
Subject: Re: ANC Leadership Wanes
Date: 6 Oct 92 14:00:49 GMT
Article-I.D.: dime.54404
Organization: University of Massachusetts, Amherst

In article <1992Sep30.151638.202934@uctvax.uct.ac.za> hllhar01@uctvax.uct.ac.za writes:
>yodaiken@chelm.cs.umass.edu (victor yodaiken) writes:
>>  
>> While the Times story makes reference to anti-Inkatha vigilantes, the 
>> story, if accurate, shows that calling the ANC and Inkatha "dually
>> responsible" for violence is misleading.
>
>Whilst I am no Inkatha fan, it is quite clear that both the foreign media and
>the local "liberal" press are waging a campaign against this organisation. Most
>articles tend to place the overwhelming burden of blame for the violence in
>Natal and the Witwatersrand on the IFP, whilst ANC violence is either ignored
>all together or attributed to undisciplined elements within the organisation
>("vigilantes"). As in the Times article you quoted above, the general media
>sentiment seems to be that the ANC is more or less innocent, whereas Inkatha is
>almost entirely to blame. This is really misleading - when it comes to

At least in the Times, this is not true. On the contrary, the Times has
been very sympathetic to Buthelzi in the past, and the story I cite
makes quite an effort to cover anti-Inkatha violence and to suggest the
complexity of the situation. Actually, there is a clear conflict between
the editorial argument of the story and its factual content: the editorial
slant of the story is quite sympathetic to the people of the Hostels and
tries to depcit them as being victims of ANC and allied efforts to control
township politics, but the story documents the strong ties between Inkatha
forces in the hostels and the police, and the story illustrates the 
use of hostels as armed bases within the townships.
Violence committed by ANC members gets quite
a bit of space in both the Times and the Boston Globe: two archetypical
members of the "liberal" press.

-- 


yodaiken@chelm.cs.umass.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
From: Jim Rosenfield <jnr@igc.apc.org>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
Date: 05 Oct 92 21:37 PDT
Subject: Re: 9/27 Wire stories on hunger
Nf-ID: #R:cdp:1471700153:cdp:1471700154:000:2204
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!jnr    Oct  5 21:37:00 1992


/* Written  9:45 am  Sep 27, 1992 by jnr in cdp:hunger.general */
APn  09/27 1206  Horn-Relief Workers

Copyright, 1992. The Associated Press. All rights reserved.

   DAGAHALEY CAMP, Kenya (AP) -- Habiba Ali, 20, lovingly holds
her son Mohamed as a doctor with a large syringe feeds him
through a nasal tube. The 2-year-old is little larger than a
newborn.

Like so many others in this eastern Kenya camp for Somali
refugees, Mohamed may have arrived at the feeding center too
late. Scores of tiny mounds in a graveyard 300 yards away attest
to his probable fate.

"We have social workers who go tent to tent, finding kids whose
mothers wouldn't bring them in for one reason or another," said
Eddie Kangara, a Kenyan official with CARE International who
supervises the camp. "It's often too late."

Elodie Martel, a Montreal native who is in charge of social
services for CARE's camps in Kenya, said many of the Somali
women, traumatized by the anarchy they left behind to seek
safety, are desperately afraid of authority figures, even
doctors.

But she also spoke of the ultimate desperation of some parents.

"She will come and say, `My child died.' But really, the mother
or father has pushed with one hand over the child's eyes, and put
the other over the mouth," Miss Martel said. "I've talked to
doctors who have seen it done. They say the baby doesn't fight at
all.

"Apparently they figure why give medicine to my child -- she's
hopeless -- when others can be saved."

No matter how professional the charity worker, the pressure of
seeing dead children every day is telling.

Riding on the back of a pickup truck into Liboi camp just east of
Dagahaley, regional camp coordinator Gail Neudorf of Vancouver,
B.C., pointed to a group of men standing and talking.

"Look at those men. Do you see anybody malnourished? No," she
said.

"That's because the men eat first, the women eat next, then the
children eat -- if there's anything left after the animals eat.
That's what really hurts: The animals eat before the children.

"It makes sense for survival in the nomadic culture. But not
now." 
---------------------------------------------------------------
Used with permission of Associated Press

Newsgroups: soc.culture.african,soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
From: gavan@elc.mth.uct.ac.za (Gavan Tredoux)
Subject: Re: ANC Leadership Wanes
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 92 21:57:21 GMT
Organization: University of Cape Town
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4

yodaiken@chelm.cs.umass.edu (victor yodaiken) writes:
 
: The New York Times ran an interesting article on the Hostels and Inkatha
: this Sunday. The Times has, in the past, depicted Buthelezi as a "moderate"
: caught between extremists of the left and right and I believe that this
: remains the editorial view of  the paper. Nonetheless, the article lends a
: great deal of credence to ANC claims that Inkatha military actions are
: supported by the South African security forces.

Er, you might be a little more cautious when drawing conclusions about
a complex situation from an article in the New York Times - that *is*
ambitious. Regarding credibility, there's no doubt that the police and 
military are partial, particularly in Natal. That doesn't alter the SOURCE
of the conflict. 

: >appeal to "bugger the ANC up". Just goes to show how these extremely unsavoury
: >people are dually responsible for all this "mysterious" violence.
: 
: While the Times story makes reference to anti-Inkatha vigilantes, the 
: story, if accurate, shows that calling the ANC and Inkatha "dually
: responsible" for violence is misleading.
: 
: If Inkatha and the security police are engaged in a violent campaign to
: suppress ANC political organizing, what do you propose that the ANC
: should do in response? Cease any actions which could be considered 
: provocation? 

The idea that the ANC are "acting in response" (which is their claim
invariably) is sweet, but it doesn't measure up to the history of this
conflict, which seldom makes its way, except in extremely brief and misleading
snatches, into the media, locally let alone abroad. THere isn't any sense
in petty arguments about original sin -- analysing the stats soberly reveals
both sides taking heavy casualties. And the term "vigilante" is a nonsense.
These are attacks by military operatives now.

Gavan Tredoux
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
From: Jim Rosenfield <jnr@igc.apc.org>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
Date: 05 Oct 92 21:36 PDT
Subject: Re: 9/25 Wire stories on hunger
Nf-ID: #R:cdp:1471700147:cdp:1471700149:000:1960
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!jnr    Oct  5 21:36:00 1992


/* Written  8:36 pm  Sep 25, 1992 by jnr in cdp:hunger.general */

APn  09/25 1402  Kids-Food

Copyright, 1992. The Associated Press. All rights reserved.

By DIANE DUSTON

WASHINGTON (AP) -- Squeezed among the junk food commercials on
the cartoon shows Saturday morning will be a new animated figure
whose mission is to inform kids about healthy eating.

Willie Munchright, a product of clay animation, stars in a series
of 12 "What's on Your Plate" public service announcements
debuting this week on CBS-TV.

The 55-second spots feature nutrition questions from other
characters who ask things like: "Is it OK to eat cake every day?"

"Cake is what we call a `sometimes' food," Willie advises. "So
are chips, candy and other sweet things. It's OK to eat these
sometimes, just not all the times.

"Everyday foods like bananas, corn, rice, lean meat and 1
percent, lowfat milk come first."

While the spots may not go as far as some health food advocates
would like, they at least will be advising youngsters on how to
deal with the foods advertised around cartoons.

"Too much of what we see in advertising and promotion consists of
sugary cereals, fatty snacks and fast food delights," said Rep.
Ron Wyden, D-Ore., who announced creation of the nutrition spots
this week.

He has been working for years to balance the Saturday morning
junk food ads with nutritional information.

"Obesity caused by poor eating habits is a critical national
health problem," he said. "Our best remedy is reaching youngsters
at an early age with a good nutrition message."

The Kelloggs Co., Dole Food Co., ABC-TV and the National
Association of Broadcasters have already put out healthy eating
spots for the cartoon time slot.

The ones featuring Willie Munchright were produced for CBS by the
McDonald's Corp. with guidance from the Society for Nutrition
Education.
-------------------------------------------------------------
Used with permission of the Associated Press


Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
From: "colin perkel" <colin.perkel@canrem.com>
Subject: gatsha on the warpath
Reply-To: "colin perkel" <colin.perkel@canrem.com>
Organization: Canada Remote Systems
Distribution: soc
Date: 4 Oct 92 22:17:46 EST

   Read with some consternation Buthelezi's contention that the Spear of
the Nation (Umkonte Im Sizwe?) must disband or he'd declare war on the
ANC.
   I mean is this guy a bit off or what.
   Are we talking about a legitimate desire to share in the power
structure or something far more sinister.
   Seems ironic coming on a day that Renamo and Frelimo finally get
around to shaking bloody hands.

Col
---
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Internet: colin.perkel@canrem.com
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Newsgroups: soc.culture.african