HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: aim@csc.liv.ac.uk (Antonis Michailidis)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: Macedonia! What else?
Keywords: Macedonia
Date: 6 Sep 92 05:56:51 GMT
Organization: Computer Science, Liverpool University

In article <d=zyp-b@rpi.edu>, koceva@warren1a.its.rpi.edu (Andrej Kocev) writes:
> 
>         Macedonia may have been a former state of Greece, and the people
>         who call themselves Macedonians may trace their roots somewhere
>         back to Greece or elsewhere, but that is all history.

Wrong. Macedonia is today as it was in the past the OFFICIAL name of the northern part of Greece. It is not history, it is today's reality.

>         Right now the people of Macedonia call themselves Macedonians
          ^^^^^^^^^^
>         and they will always do so.
>         It will be silly to name this independent state anything but
>         Macedonia.

Exactly, "Right now", the people of Skopje call themeselves after our name. We identified ourselves as Macedonians throughout our history and we still identify ourselves as Macedonians. There is no reason why we should accept a distinct nation or country to represent themeselves as if they were the same with us. Since Skopje decided to form a distinct country that means that they regard themselves to distict from anyother country including Greece of course. It is irrational to claim, on the one hand, that 




you are distinct from Greece, and on the other hand, to name your country after the name of 3 million Greeks.
  
> 
>         --Andrej


Best regards

Antonis Michailidis
Xref: sparky soc.culture.yugoslavia:8539 soc.culture.greek:8536
From: sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.greek
Subject: Ancient and modern Macedonians
Date: 6 Sep 92 08:48:05 GMT
Organization: Enea Data AB

Goce Naumoski (naumoski@cs.ruu.nl) writes:
>PS. Ancient Macedonians were no Greeks, but simply Macedonians. The Greeks
>    for almost 2500 years are trying to Helenize them and are using
>    different tools, but from the 20st years of the 19th century their
>    methods are becoming worse and worse. They have almost done it in
>    the Aegean Macedonia, and now in 1992 they are playing the last game,
>    the final game. But the last game is a little different, the strategy
>    is changed, there is enough Helenization, so let them be anything else.
>    And for the Macedonians it is now: TO BE OR NOT TO BE.

I don't care very much whether the ancient Macedonians were Greeks
or not; it bears little relevance to the issue of present-day
Macedonia, but I would like you to clarify your position. Do you
suggest that the modern Macedonians are related to the ancient
Macedonians more than any other people in that area?

-- 
Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - sommar@enea.se
"Recreation of source code from design documentation can be costly"
IEEE Std 1042/1987
From: dmatic@athena.mit.edu (Davor Matic)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.europe
Subject: Panic too civilized for Serbian taste buds
Date: 5 Sep 92 02:24:58 GMT
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology


        The group of deputies of the ruling Socialist Party of Serbia
and its ally, the Serbian Radical Party, on Monday pressed for Panic's
resignation, accusing him of ``deviating'' from the official Belgrade
government policy at the London peace conference on former Yugoslavia,
held Aug. 26-27.
        Panic, the 63-year-old Belgrade-born U.S. naturalized citizen,
warned against Serbian ``war-mongering'' which he claimed would lead
the former Yugoslav ``region to collapse.''  The
businessman-turned-politician said the Serbian militant policy may
``drag Yugoslavia into even deeper isolation, and this means tragedy
for the country.''
Xref: sparky soc.culture.yugoslavia:8572 rec.travel:12994 rec.misc:219
From: hrvoje@castle.ed.ac.uk (H Hecimovic)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,rec.travel,rec.misc
Subject: Re: Question about use of Cyrillic alphabet
Date: 7 Sep 92 13:39:20 GMT
Organization: Edinburgh University

packer@amarna.gsfc.nasa.gov (Charles Packer) writes:

>I was at the Yugoslavia embassy here in Washington getting
>a visa stamp in my passport and I noticed Yugoslavian newspapers
>on the table in the lobby. They used the Cyrillic alphabet. Is
>this typical? Should I not bother to learn to read
>Serbo-Croatian in the Roman alphabet? I'm having enough trouble
>memorizing how to =say= commonplace phrases. I wouldn't want to
>waste time learning to =read= them in Roman if they don't even
>use Roman. 


Hi, I am a Croatian. We use Roman alphabet and during last 75 years,
living w/Serbians in ex-Yugoslavia, we would have to learn 
Cyrillic alphabet in primary schools,
which is how they write in Serbia, Montenegro and
some parts of B&H.

Also, let me say that Serbo-Croatian language exists only in foreign
books. In the Constitution of Croatia, it has always been Croatian language,
even during Yugoslavia. Serbians wanted to spread idea of
Serbo-Croatian, mainly because of political reasons.
The two languages have different histories.

As you say you've seen papers in Cyrillic characters, because like here
in London of 18 persons in ex-YU Embassy, 17 were Serbs.
Maybe you didn't know that in Croatian we call our country
HRVATSKA.
Lots of luck, Hrvoje
From: rsakella@p4.cs.man.ac.uk (Rizos Sakellariou)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: Greek Macedonian writes about "Macedonia".
Date: 9 Sep 92 12:02:01 GMT

naumoski@cs.ruu.nl (Goce Naumoski) writes:

>As I said above, there were just Christians and Muslims as two main groups
>in the Ottoman Empire.
The generalisation is OK, but don't you think that it is rather vague?
And because all generalisations are dangerous (even that one), let's
make things clear...
Among the Christian population there were people who were speaking a different
language, having different traditions, different dances, songs, etc...
In the case of Macedonia, the difference between the Greek and non-Greek
element those days, is rather clear, or at least more clear than the
differences among the Slav-speaking populations of the region...
And there are many well-documented facts concerning the Greeks of Macedonia,
during the years of the Ottoman Empire. The first Greek newspaper was
published by Greeks from Macedonia in Vienna, the late 18th century;
Greeks in Macedonia were revolted together with the Greeks from the rest
of Balkans, during the Greek Revolution (1821 - There is the example of
Naousa, where the women preferred to committed suicide rather than surrender);
Greeks from Macedonia participated in the Greek Assembly that framed
the first Greek constitution (1844), and many many other facts...


>It is a region near Ohrid, and it was one of the main "regions"
>(okruzi) in the Ilinden uprising. And now the point, I do not belive to
>all books about the uprising, especially about the combatants in the above
>mentioned region, but instead I do belive to the stories of my grand parents.
 ...
>His stories were brought to us, and for me they are the most accurate.

It's OK that you believe the stories of your ancestors, but on the other
hand, if one wants to have a global view of history, he cannot be based on
facts only from the family tradition. History has many aspects and one
should know as many as possible in order to surpass misconceptions
created during periods of trouble...
For example : During the Greek Civil war (1946-49), there were murders by
both the nationalists and the communists. Supposing that a nationalist killed
my grand-father, don't you think that it is absurd to base my knowledge
for the period only on this fact, claiming that the nationalists were, are
and always will be the good guys and the communists the bad ones? (the choise 
communist-nationalist is random; it might be the opposite). 
Look, history, especially the history of conflicts, is only to teach the
next generations and to unite not to divide them... If you are really
interested in the history of Macedonia, you have to read many sources
not only the ones that agree with the stories of your ancestors...

--r.
From: cla04@seq1.keele.ac.uk (A.T. Fear)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe
Subject: Re: ISO's Greek sister organisation facing treason charges over Macedonia.
Date: 15 Sep 92 20:28:28 GMT
Organization: Keele University, England

From article <1992Sep15.155158.9627@cs.yale.edu>, by pavlovic-milan@CS.YALE.EDU (Milan Pavlovic):
> In article <9226000.10878@mulga.cs.mu.OZ.AU> sachz@montebello.ecom.unimelb.EDU.AU (SAS) writes:
>> 
>>Article from "The Socialist" No. 268, September, 1992.
>> 
>> Solidarity work continues for the five comrades in the ISO's Greek sister 
>>organisation facing treason charges.
> 
>   What I find absolutely disgusting in the whole matter of the recognition of
> the Skopjans is their apparent willingness to work with ANY group that will 
> help them achieve their goals.
> 
>   Just look at some of the organizations whom the Skopjans have been working 
> with toward this end:
> 
> 1. The Vatican - the Pope was accepted in the spring of 1990 into the 
>    "Macedonian Writer's Association" as honorary member.  
> 
> 2. The terrorist-fascist VMRO - it was founded by a group of fanatics in Skopje
>    in the summer of 1990, and is led by a Bulgarian who brags that his title is
>    "Duke" Ljupco.
> 
> 3. The Turks - even on this newsgroup, Goce Naumoski shocked me with his posts
>    of condemning Greeks for their treatment of some muslim minority in Greece,
>    who he claims are Turks.  Goce, if you are reading this, let me make it 
>    clear to you that you should be ashamed *big time* for doing this. The Turks
>    oppressed all our Orthodox people for 500 years, and you are willing to 
>    stoop so low as to cajole them, all for your hate of Greeks...SHAME ON YOU !
> 
> 4. Commie bastards - and now at last, we are getting newspaper articles on
>    scy/scg from "The Socialist".
> 
> 
> Who will be next, I wonder.
> 
> Regards,
> Milan
> ===============================================================================
> 	M A C E D O N I A.....G R E E K   F O R   4 0 0 0   Y E A R S
> ===============================================================================
From: draskovi@usc.edu (Zoran Draskovic)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Konjic
Date: 14 Sep 1992 22:35:43 -0700
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: aludra.usc.edu


[ Politika, Sep. 10. 1992. ]

             HELP THE SERBS IN CELEBIC AND KONJIC

    SRNA reports that, Dr. Dragan Kalinic, Minister of
Health Employment and Social Affairs of the Serbian Republic
of Bosnia and Herzegovina addressed an appeal to the
International Red Cross Comitee and to the UN High
Commission for Refugees, in which he asks that they take
urgent actions in solving the difficult position of the
Serbian population in the Konjic area, 287 Serbs are being
kept prisoners for months in Celebic and 133 Serbs are
inprisoned in sports-hall in Konjic. Their families still
have no news of them, and the rare Serbs that have escaped
from these prisons, speak of terrible torture and the
unhuman treatment of the inmates.
    Minister Kalinic also warns in his letter that the
humanitarian aid is not reaching the 4,000 Serbs that have
escaped from Konjic - most of them women children and
elderly people.
From: susan_soric@upubs.uchicago.edu (Susan Soric)
Subject: Re: FREE BOSNIA: Chicago demonstration
Organization: Univ. of Chicago
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 15:54:30 GMT

In article <30229@goofy.Apple.COM>, zorro@goofy.apple.com (...the invisible one?) writes:
> 
> Seems a bit odd for "peace activists" and "religious groups" to protest
> arms embargoes, doesn't it?
> :)
> kind of like, "oh please, the <agressor> is bombing us, give us guns,
> but we won't use them like that, promise!"
> Anyway, how about a JOINED Muslim-Serb-Croat protest to END the war rather
> than trying to get political support for your own tribe!?!?
> Since all the religions involved supposedly preach for brotherhood, they
> should like that. Unless only certain more militant members of the
> clergy are listened to in any way, as is the unfortunate case.
> 
> 
The whole premise of the coalition sponsoring this protest is
based upon the question of justice: how can the world stand by
and watch while poorly or virtually unarmed civilians of
the "wrong" race get slaughtered by a people group that is
armed to the teeth?  This is something that I undertand
instinctively, and I hope others will too.
There is no peace without justice.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: deniz@atlas.ctr.columbia.edu (Deniz Akkus)
Subject: Re: Question about use of Cyrillic alphabet
Organization: Columbia University Center for Telecommunications Research
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 17:54:36 GMT
X-Posted-From: atlas.ctr.columbia.edu
X-Posted-Through: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In article <92252.091140LMWHITE@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> LMWHITE@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (Lois White) writes:
>In article <1992Sep7.195805.22088@alw.nih.gov>, pruss@helix.nih.gov (dmitry
>pruss) says:
>>
>>
>I can't say that I *know*, but they probably would not have been using Arabic
>script, except in the study of the Quran.  Even if they were speaking Turkish
>at the time, I think by 75 years ago the Arabic script was no longer used to
>write Turkish.

I don't think the Muslims of Bosnia speak Turkish but a modified Arabic
script was used for writing Turkish until the switch to the latin script 
during the republican era, by which time there was no connection left with 
Bosnia.

Deniz Akkus deniz@ctr.columbia.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: pavlovic-milan@CS.YALE.EDU (Milan Pavlovic)
Subject: Re: The goal of an intervention
Organization: Yale University Computer Science Dept., New Haven, CT 06520-2158
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1992 19:13:10 GMT

In article <1992Sep7.044411.12930@unixland.natick.ma.us> sharon@unixland.natick.ma.us (Sharon Machlis Gartenberg) writes:

>Is the best alternative to do nothing as defenseless civilians are
>trapped without food and water, as babies are dying (2 today) because
>power is shut off to hospitals, as people are being held in camps where
>they are beaten, starved, and some are randomly chosen to be shot, as
>scores of civilians are killed every day by artillery bombardment and
>snipers? Is this the best solution the world can come up with?

Without getting into an endless debate here, since I don't have the time for 
that, let me just stress one point.

Didn't the UN envoy Cyrus Vance warn against the recognition of Izetbegovic's
B&H before a final political solution for it is agree on by ALL the sides?
And then didn't the German led EC go ahead and recognize B&H anyway, which
then ignited the war in B&H?

Sharon, it is people like you and other Westerners who urged the recognition
of Izetbegovic's B&H who are primarily at fault for the war there.
The West should be ashamed for what it did, because it needlessly unleashed
a civil war in a country that could have found a peaceful, political, 
solution to its problems, only if it had pressed Mr. Izetbegovic to find a
diplomatic solution.

Milan
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: naumoski@cs.ruu.nl (Goce Naumoski)
Subject: Macedonia in the 19th ct.
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 07:42:50 GMT
Organization: Utrecht University, Dept. of Computer Science



Many Macedonian intelectuals in the 19th ct. have written many
books about the Macedonian identity. One of them was G.Pulevski.
In 1875 in his book "The book of three languages", Gjorgji Pulevski
writes:

"So and the Macedonians are a nation and their place is Macedonia".


And now a HINT for the Greek friends: Tito was born about 20 years
				      after the book was published.

Regards,
Goce.

Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,alt.activism,misc.activism.progressive
From: susan_soric@upubs.uchicago.edu (Susan Soric)
Subject: Re: Chicago Demonstration 9/19/92
Followup-To: alt.activism.d
Originator: rich@pencil.cs.missouri.edu
Organization: Univ. of Chicago
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 18:48:31 GMT

To follow up on my previous comment about
the right to self-defense in connection with
the forthcoming Chicago demonstration.......
I am sure that most decent human beings do not
"favor" the use of military force, do not "prefer" a
 violent response to the situation in BH.  Those
 same people  see the slaughter of their loved ones
 and friends and the destruction of their homeland,
 and they are watching the world, with all its strength
 and power, stand by.  Our own relatives over there are
 crying out to us to help them lift the arms embargo 
against Croatia and BH.

It is terribly unfortunate that the war in the
former Yugoslavia has come to this, and I'm sure
the demonstrators would prefer to see a peaceful
solution that is, of course, JUST....however while
the rest of the world makes feeble or even vain
 attempts to bring about such a difficult "just
peace" we must not participate in continuing to tie the
hands of those who are facing slaughter and annihilation
through no fault of their own.

 A meal will do no good for a man with his hands
 tied behind his back and a rifle pointed at his head.
  If "never again" is truly NOW,
the world should stop favoring aggression (and by
aggression I mean the invasion, murder, rape and
pillage of the people of Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina
on their own territories.)  We must also, meanwhile, 
condemn atrocities committed by all sides, but we
must never forget the gross injustice of allowing
one powerfully armed people group to use its
superior firepower freely to destroy the lives,
homes, dignity and futures of other people
groups for their own gain.  Peace will not
begin in earnest until there is a strong,
worldwide move toward justice.



> 
> Disclaimer: The abovementioned comments
reflect the views of the writer alone and have no
> connection whatsoever with the University of
> Chicago.
> 
> 
> 
> 

Xref: sparky soc.culture.yugoslavia:8508 soc.culture.greek:8502
From: zorro@goofy.apple.com (...the invisible one?)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: FREE BOSNIA: Chicago demonstration
Date: 4 Sep 92 21:22:04 GMT
Reply-To: zorro@goofy.apple.com (...the invisible one?)
Organization: Apple Computer, Inc.

Seems a bit odd for "peace activists" and "religious groups" to protest
arms embargoes, doesn't it?
:)
kind of like, "oh please, the <agressor> is bombing us, give us guns,
but we won't use them like that, promise!"
Anyway, how about a JOINED Muslim-Serb-Croat protest to END the war rather
than trying to get political support for your own tribe!?!?
Since all the religions involved supposedly preach for brotherhood, they
should like that. Unless only certain more militant members of the
clergy are listened to in any way, as is the unfortunate case.
From: malenovi@plains.NoDak.edu (Malenovic Nikola V.)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: French say gunfire against soldiers came from Bosnian side
Date: 10 Sep 92 05:28:39 GMT
Article-I.D.: plains.20253
Organization: North Dakota Higher Education Computing Network

[ re-posted from SII w/o premission ]
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: French say gunfire against soldiers came from Bosnian zone
Date: 9 Sep 92 09:59:44 GMT

	PARIS (UPI) -- The French Defense Ministry Wednesday said machine-gun
fire that killed two French United Nations peacekeeping troops near the
Sarajevo airport came from a zone held by Bosnian forces.
	``The logistic convoy coming from Belgrade was hit by light-infantry
fire and grenades as it entered a zone held by Bosnian forces south of
the Sarajevo airport,'' a ministry statement said.
	The statement labeled the two dead soldiers ``victims of a deliberate
attack, and of a manifest provocation by persons wanting to make war,
and who are enormously bothered by the prospects of peace.''
	Military officers on the scene said Tuesday's attack appeared
deliberate, because it lasted for about five minutes.
	The slain troops, identified as Frederic Vaudet, 28, and Eric Marot,
21, died from bullet wounds to the head, even though they wore
protective United Nations blue helmets, the ministry said.
	Three other French soldiers suffered slight injuries in the attack.
	The latest bloodshed raised the total number of U.N. peacekeepers
killed in Sarajevo to four. Some 46 other U.N. soldiers have also been
injured.
	Last week, four Italian pilots also died when someone shot down their
relief plane as it approached Sarajevo airport.
	Italian authorities initially claimed the craft had been deliberately
targeted by Serbian forces, who allegedly fired two surface-to-air
missiles at it.
	But Wednesday, the British Broadcasting Corp. reported officials now
speculate the plane might have flown into the middle of a fight between
Serbian and Bosnian forces.
	In the wake of the tragedy, U.N. officials in Sarajevo said they
considered a resumption of humanitarian flights unlikely in the
foreseeable future.
	On Tuesday, U.N. Secretary General Butros Ghali said he agreed ``in
principle'' with the idea of providing military air support for
humanitarian flights, but said such a step would require a U.N. Security
Council resolution.
From: stojanov@husc8.harvard.edu (Milan Stojanovic)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: WHO'S THE BIGGER NAZI?
Date: 4 Sep 92 21:52:21 GMT
Article-I.D.: husc3.1992Sep4.175222.15373
Organization: Harvard University Science Center

In article <1992Sep4.182124.12767@athena.mit.edu> dmatic@athena.mit.edu (Davor Matic) writes:
>In article <1992Sep3.184037.15349@husc3.harvard.edu>, stojanov@husc8.harvard.edu (Milan Stojanovic) writes:
>|> In article <1992Sep3.194913.11137@athena.mit.edu> dmatic@athena.mit.edu (Davor Matic) writes:
>|> >In article <14337@goanna.cs.rmit.oz.au>, s902211@yallara.cs.rmit.OZ.AU (Zoran
>|> >Kalenic) writes:
>|> 
>|> 
>|> 
>|> >I don't mean kill people like you, but maybe cut your tounges and fingers off
>|> >and send you to an orthodox monastary. 
>|> 
>|> A Tudjman and Pavelic devotee?
>|> No new approaches to the final solution of Serbian question in 
>|> Croatia?   
>|> 
>|> Milan N. Stojanovic
>
>
>No, Milan.  You are taking me out of context again.  You do this to

Again?  So what was the context of your .... statement?  Humour? 
Nice one, definetely.

>Tudjman all the time, too.  This is what you SERBS are good at, not 

Would you mind showing where I did put Tudjman out of context.
Did Nora Beloff put Tudjman out of context? Did Simon Wiesenthal 
put Tudjman out of context?


>Crotas.   How conveniently you deleted the part of the article that
>shows this statement clearly.  
>
>Regards,
>--- Davor

Regards,

Milan
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.greek