From: jsemrad@ems.cdc.com (Joe Semrad)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.animals
Subject: Re: Self Regulating Populations
Date: 31 Aug 92 16:18:08 GMT
Reply-To: jsemrad@ems.cdc.com
Organization: Empros Systems International, a division of CDC

In article <BtsEDy.CzB@wpg.com>, russ@wpg.com (Russell Lawrence) writes:
|> In article <BtpJL5.46p@wpg.com>, russ@wpg.com (Russell Lawrence) writes:
|> rl> It seems to me that it takes a lot of courage for an animal to 
|> rl> stand and kick rather than turn tail and run away.  Yet this same 
|> rl> courage not to run away is regarded as a sign of stupidity among 
|> rl> human hunters.  Why is it "courageous" for a deer to stay-put in 
|> rl> confrontations with wolves, but "stupid" for a deer to stay-put 
|> rl> in confrontations with humans?  
|> 
|> From article <21643@nntp_server.ems.cdc.com>, by jsemrad@ems.cdc.com (Joe Semrad):
|> js> Projecting those human qualities on to the deer, eh Russell? 
|> 
|> What makes you think that fear and courage are uniquely human 
|> qualities?  
|> 

What makes you think deer understand the concept of "courage" or "stupidity"?
(These were the terms, supplied by you, that we were discussing, though fear
would probably fit in as well.) I hardly think a deer feels it is being
courageous if/when it stays put to challenge a predator.  Deer are interested
in surviving, not in defending principles against all odds or some other
situation that humans would say calls for courage.  When faced with a threat
a deer (or any animal) will evaluate its options and choose the one it thinks
will give it the best chance of surviving.  It doesn't pick a defense option
based on which one will make it look less stupid, or which one will make it
look more courageous.  If you feel that deer (not people talking about deer)
understand these concepts please cite your evidence.

|> js> Is the deer "stupid" or "courageous" if stays put in a 
|> js> confrontation with a wolf and dies anyways?  

I was looking forward to your answer to this question, but you chose not
to answer it, though from you responses to other posts I probably could have
expected as much.  Care to give it a second look?  Actually I don't think it
really has an answer, just as your original question doesn't have an answer
since I don't believe deer understand the concepts.

|> js> The obvious answer to your question is that if the deer 
|> js> stays put for a human it might get shot.  Of course, for any 
|> js> number of reasons, it may not.  If the deer is shot at and 
|> js> missed, perhaps it will learn something for next time.  If a 
|> js> deer stays put for a wolf it may die, or it may not.  
|> 
|> Can deer see bullets as they move through the air?  If not, please
|> explain how a deer is supposed to learn from the experience of
|> being targeted and missed.

I was at the shooting range this weekend, so from firsthand experience
I can report that guns make noise, and that bullets slamming into wood or
the ground make noise and kick up debris.  There may also be a whining
sound and/or a rush of air from a near miss.  Depending on wind direction
there may also be the unnatural smell of gunpowder in the air.  All of
these things are unnatural to the deer.  Not to mention the fact that
after a miss there is quite probably human movement while the hunter
attempts to reload and/or recock and resight the gun.  While a deer may
not fully understand the implications of all this I'm sure it perceives
a threat.  Another possiblity is a grazing shot.  While hunters try as best
they can to avoid it, it does happen.  All of this would/could lead a deer
to consider evasive action.  If the deer runs away these sequence of events
do not repeat themselves perhaps leading a deer to conclude that this
was an effective way to deal with the threat.  If the deer stands pat and
is missed a second time it might decide to try a different type of evasive
action.

Please note that this choosing of defensive options goes on in the natural
world whether the threat is man or not.

Why do you feel that deer are incapable of learning from near miss encounters
with hunters?  Do you feel that deciding the best course of action to take
when a human is detected cannot become part of an experienced deer's (or
pheasant's, to continue with my other example that you deleted) repertoire?
Do you feel that it is inconceivable that less experienced deer may learn
this behaviour from observing more experienced deer or even from observing
another deer actually be shot?


Joe
All opinions are mine, etc.
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