HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
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Date:         Wed, 11 Nov 1992 16:02:18 CET
From:         Klaus Kursawe <NDB035@NOV.HB.SE>
Subject:      re : right wing violence

Uwe wrote about the ideas to do something against right wing violence:

>One point, mentioned by a politician (sorry, I missed his name.)
>was, that maybe there should be the possibility for companies to
>lay off workers that are supporting right wing and neonazi opinions.

I think this is exactly the wrong way. 50 years ago companies were allowed
to lay off communist workers... It's not that I want to compare the
situation that time with the situation now, but we are a democratie
and one of the basic rules is that "Nobody should have disadvantages because
of his ... political opinion". You don't beat them by going down to their
niveau. And anyway, this will not change their opinion - it will just
increase their hate and make them even more violent.
I once heard about a demonstration of right-extremes who demonstrated
_against_ violence that ended in a big party - that is the way it should
be. If anybody thinks that all problems will be solved if you don't take
more immigrants, you can try to discuss with him (if possible), but
you can't punish him for his opinion - that's the first step to a
dictature.

>Another newsmagazine mentioned yesterday, that maybe the police
>should be better equipped with plastic bullets capable of hitting
>you like a price boxer (that's how the magazine described it.)

Ok, a good-armed police can do more - but that's just cosmetic. You
don't solve any problems by beeing better armed than the others -
I think the cold war between the USA and the Soviet-Union has show
this very good. Of course the police must be stronger than the violent
radicals - but to solve the problem, we have to do much more.

>One thing I hope. All of you that are not from Germany, please
>don't think that all the germans are becoming nazis again.

I think we must show the world and especially the right-extremes that they are
just a small minority making a lot of noise, and we must try to tell this
people that violence is the wrong way.
I know I sound very negative in this letter (just critic on other ideas) ,but
I don't think it's so easy to do something that really helps- the roots of
this problem are too deep. I hate this feeling, there are a few people making
so stupid things, everybody looks at them and I don't even know what to do
agains it, and I really fear it'll take years until we get really rid of
this - I hope everybody will see that they are just a minority and that they
will give up their violence if they don't get any success with that - but by
now they get what they want: the worlds attention.

/Klaus
NDB035@NOV.HB.SE
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Date:         Thu, 12 Nov 1992 20:13:29 -0500
From:         x91ahmed4@GW.WMICH.EDU
Subject:      Re: Veils, etc.

Krista...
Although it doesnot justify rape but cna we infer that it is something
leading to a dangerous point...

Ahmed
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Date:         Fri, 13 Nov 1992 10:02:47 -0500
From:         AHMED@DAYTON.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Veils, etc.

Alcino,

Douglas and I are not having a quarel.... I for one am enjoying a spirited
discussion....

I agree with you that  having attorneys from a pool, while idealistic, might
work to eliminate the problem...however, if the defense has lots of money
because the defendent is rich, he still is able to get a lot of high
powered "experts" to testify on his/her behalf and influence the jury which
is susceptible to such influences....  It is why advertisement using major
athletes sells one brand of shoes or race car drivers selling one type of
car works.... its not the merit of the shoe or car but the credentials of
the sales person that matters and the rich defendents can get the more
powerful sales persons (experts).... I doubt that people who work in
manufacturing shoes or auto mechanics will be swayed as easily...

Alcino, its not just a problem with juries,....the richer politician also
wins in most cases because they have the money to use the media to confuse
the people....when they are confused, they can be manipulated...and thus the
politician who raises more money wins.....

Zahir
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Date:         Fri, 13 Nov 1992 09:46:55 -0500
From:         AHMED@DAYTON.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Veils, etc.

Ahmed,

If people in minority are to be banned, the people who want foreign
students studying at American Colleges are a minority, should foreign students
be banned?

There are lots of places where people can live if they want their government to
   tell them
what to wear or whom to have sex with or whatever.... America is a place
where people can atleast try to decide for themselves whether they want
to be topless dancers or whatever.....  You have a choice of the country
you want to go to....If its America, you live with people and allow them to
be different then you.....

zahir
From: 4FMH011@MC.BITNET
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Subject: Re: Veils, etc.
Date: 7 Nov 92 02:48:36 GMT
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As I believe people who want to learn Islam is better for them to learn ARABIC
so they won't get in confusion and also it will be easy for them to understand
the Qur'an and Hadith, and in another way it will be a good practice to learn
ARABIC.  I want to say one more thing is please don't read the Qur'an in
ENGLISH because there are some phrases are not translated to the right meaning.
From: chowning@ACUVAX.ACU.EDU (Richard Chowning)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.xcult-l
Subject: RE:New list EVANGE-L
Date: 6 Nov 92 21:28:06 GMT
Reply-To: chowning@acuvax.acu.edu
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In Message Fri, 6 Nov 1992 06:09:57 GMT,
  "Ruth M. Hanschka" <ap290@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU> writes:

>In a previous article, chowning@ACUVAX.ACU.EDU (Richard Chowning) says:

>>Worldview and religion are almost if not totally inseperable from religion,
>For most people, they're so mixed it's impossible to tell where one starts
>and the other stops.  Some people try to separate gut reactions from reason,
>which never works either.  Each influences the other to the point that
>at least 90% blended.  If they're not, you're looking at someone who's
>going to be switching worldviews or religions fairly soon.:-)

It is only we Westerners who would dare to separate religion from worldview.
When we do that, we show that we understand very little about religion.  It
is be part of the whole being.  Therefore, I agree Ruth, that criticism of a
religion or a religious person shows narrowness.  Dialogue brings
understanding of worldviews and religions.  In that dialogue changes might
take place.  If they are for the better, great... If they are for the worst,
in time it is hoped that the person will have a dialogue with someone else
and discover some light for life.

>Chelagoi, I want discussion too, but if it turns into something
>else, this is one Christian who's going to keep her mouth shut and get out.
>I've had to act as fire extinguisher once too often lately.  I'm burned out.

Yes, me too.  When things get ugly dialogue ceases.  And, there is no use
chiming in.  I use my delete key... when things in out of control.. However,
I stick around.  Threads change.

--- Chelagoi
_____________________________________________________________________
Chelagoi               alias                         Richard Chowning

chowning@acuvax.acu.edu                  Abilene Christian University
chowning@acuvax.bitnet                                 Abilene, Texas
rchowning@igc.org                               Voice: (915) 674-3754
_______________________________________________________________________
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Date:         Thu, 5 Nov 1992 09:58:35 -0500
From:         AHMED@DAYTON.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Dogma's Iron Cage

Krista,

From one of the responses to you...and you know which one.... I hope
we do not loose you....

Zahir
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Date:         Thu, 5 Nov 1992 09:50:43 EST
From:         Mary Ellen Ugactz-Fernandez <ugactz@CUNIXF.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Dogma's Iron Cage

Zahir:

thanks...

/Emmy
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Date:         Fri, 13 Nov 1992 11:40:28 EST
From:         KERRY REESE <U350000@UNIVSCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Another new subscriber: Role of the United Nations

ZAHIR,
  I AGREE WITH WHAT YOU ARE SAYING ABOUT THE UNITED STATES.  IT IS A
NEO-IMPERIALIST POWER. IT CONSTANTLY CITES SOME "MORAL REASON" TO JUSTIFY
ITS MILITARY ACTIONS IN OTHER COUNTRIES.  IT HELPS HARRASS OTHER NATIONS
THROUGH INSTITUTIONS LIKE THE UNITED NATIONS AND THE WORLD BANK.  IT
SENT ITS MILITARY TO TRAIN DEATH SQUADS IN EL SALVADOR AND GAVE AID TO
REBELS THAT WERE TRYING TO OVERTHROW LEGITIMATE GOVERNMENTS.  I DO NOT
AGREE WITH THESE ACTIONS.
   HOWEVER, MAYBE SOMEDAY THE MILITARIES OF THE WORLD CAN BE REDUCED OR
DESTROYED AND THE UNITED NATIONS OR ANOTHER WORLD INSTITUTION CAN HAVE
ONE ARMY THAT FAIRLY REPRESENTS THE PEOPLES OF THE WORLD.  PERHAPS IF
THERE WAS ONE GOVERNMENT, THERE WOULD BE GREATER EFFICIENCY IN ADDRESSING
WORLD PROBLEMS, LIKE THE ENVIRONMENT, HUNGER ,ETC.  DIFFERENT CULTURES
AND RELIGIONS COULD EXIST, BUT THERE WOULD BE NO MORE SACRED FLAGS AND
NATIONAL ANTHEMS TO DIVIDE PEOPLE AND JUSTIFY VIOLENCE.  I DON'T KNOW.
IT'S JUST A DREAM OR IDEAL.  DO YOU THINK ITS POSSIBLE IN THE FUTURE?
DO YOU THINK THAT IT SHOULD HAPPEN OR THAT IT IS A BAD IDEA?

                                               KERRY
     I AM CURIOUS: ARE YOU                     THE US
     FROM THE US OR ANOTHER
      COUNTRY?
                             HAVE A GOOD DAY!
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Subject: Re: Dogma's Iron Cage
Date: 6 Nov 92 01:48:49 GMT
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Thank you Krista.

Alan
From: ap290@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ruth M. Hanschka)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.xcult-l
Subject: RE: open
Date: 11 Nov 1992 05:29:48 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: ap290@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ruth M. Hanschka)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, x91ahmed4@GW.WMICH.EDU () says:

>Thank you for answering my question..but how do these things arise..or
>where is the starting point...for these bad things...
>
Which bad things?  Prostitution has been around, in human terms, forever.
It starts with poverty, or addiction, or desperation these days, although
there used to be prostitution for religious reasons.  Maybe someone else
remembers more on that than I do.  
Sometimes women and men do it to earn money to eat, and to pay for a place
to sleep.  Others do it for those reasons, plus needing money to pay for
a drug.  Some have small children to feed, and feel they don't have the
education or opportunity to do anything else.  

Is this even what you were talking about?  It's difficult to tell without
a piece of the message you're replying to included.

>
-- 
		###	Ruth Hanschka, the Nethead    ###
			- ap290@cleveland.freenet.edu
	      Where anything can happen, and it usually does
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Date:         Tue, 10 Nov 1992 15:57:00 EDT
From:         "ISTA ISTA ISHATARRO MUNDI" <RAFTER@UTKVX.BITNET>
Subject:      Everything

Well, I've been out of town & just logged on to 102 messages from x-cult,
so I read a few of them. Let me just say...

First, Zahir wrote, "God gave you arms for something other than strangling..."
Since the question of God's existence is an idle hypothesis, dependent on non-
empirical and unobservable evidence, it becomes a personal matter. God may
well have given you arms with an intended purpose. I however have little faith
that any "god" gave me mine. Like I said, it's a matter of personal belief and
not really worth discussing.

Second, Ahmed wrote something about a verse in the Quran sanctioning the veiling
of women. Although the verse does not mention veiling directly, it does
instruct women to be modest. Immediately before that verse is a similarly worded
verse telling men to be modest. So I guess according to the Qur'an men should
wear veils too? I believe a good deal of the veiling and "seclusion" of women
is an import from Persian culture, which was much more stratified and urban than
early Arabian culture.

Finally, about "daylight atheists." The challenge is to be consist and strong
in your belief: either to maintain Christian belief and behavior in good times
if you're a Christian, or to courageously remain an atheist during bad times
if you're an atheist.

Brian
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Date:         Thu, 5 Nov 1992 13:30:36 -0500
From:         JCWEST@INDYVAX.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Canned Robots

zahir,
>syringes do not qualify as a weapon...
    although in the past syringes have not been considered a weapon,
things have changed...  in some of the bigger cities, in the u.s. (sorry,
but i only speak of places i have knowledge of...), gangs have taken
to using syringes as a sort of weapon...  the scary thing is, that they
are attacking people on the street with needles that have been exposed to
people with the AIDS virus...  although this has not been a widespread
occurence yet, it has been happening...
                                            joseph...
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Date:         Fri, 6 Nov 1992 09:37:37 -0500
From:         AHMED@DAYTON.BITNET
Subject:      Re: woman as president

Dilshad,

You are right that there is such a verse...regarding covering the head..

BUT, the religion also requires prayers 5 times a day as well as fasting
all 30 days during Ramzan and so on...

Do the millions of Moslems who do not pray all 5 times a day, each and every
day, or those who do not fast all 30 days, wrong in claiming they are
moslems?

Are they moslems?  Do the millions of women who pray 5 times a day and
fast but do not cover their heads not considered moslems ?

My point is that only in some countries do they adhere to everything written
in the Quran...... A majority of moslems feel that the rituals, be it
the number of prayer times or clothings are not as important as being
a good person who does good, does not cheat or hurt others and so on....
the basic character issues.....

zahir
From: AHMED@DAYTON.BITNET
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Subject: Re: new subscriber
Date: 12 Nov 92 15:52:47 GMT
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Cesar,

Welcome,

Regarding Iraqi people and Saddam vs. Bush....  I don't really think they
benefit.  It was like a fight.  Everybody knew that Bush wanted to have
Saddam overthrown.....He made lots of efforts to overthrow Saddam and he
failed!!!!  that in itself is a victory....  Bush got overthrown without
any effort by Saddam while Saddam is still in power DESPITE all the
attempts to overthrow....

zahir
From: ap290@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ruth M. Hanschka)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.xcult-l
Subject: Re: Veils, etc.
Date: 11 Nov 1992 05:33:30 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: ap290@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ruth M. Hanschka)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, x91ahmed4@GW.WMICH.EDU () says:

>Ruth...
>I think regarding psychological aspects to rape...It usually occur due to
>attractiveness...which is shown by the way a person is dressed...What I
>think is that when a woman covers herself then she won't be showing
>her beauty in front of others which can prevent from such an infortunate
>incident.....It's basically the physical attractivness which motivates a
>person in doing such an act....
>
I hate to disillusion you, but attractiveness has nothing to do with it,
at least not in this country.  There have been hundreds of studies on this,
and the attractiveness of the victim has never had any significance.  It's
an act of rage, and frustration, and destructiveness.  There are also more
than a few rapes of males in this country, which aren't often discussed.
It does happen, though.

>
-- 
		###	Ruth Hanschka, the Nethead    ###
			- ap290@cleveland.freenet.edu
	      Where anything can happen, and it usually does
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Date:         Thu, 12 Nov 1992 20:52:34 -0400
From:         "DOUGL, APPARENTLY." <STCHRI@SSCVAX.CIS.MCMASTER.CA>
Subject:      Re: Prostitutes and Self Respect

Ahmed:

I no longer have the original note [ I do not have my own messages copied back
to me by the list] but the gist of it was to ask whether all 'sex industry'
workers [to use their own phrase] suffer from a lack of self esteem.

That is, is the 'sale' of sex in itself demeaning???


Dougl           *
The          .
Southern      *   *
Cross           *
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Date:         Thu, 12 Nov 1992 20:03:41 -0200
From:         Alcino Dall Igna Junior <adij@DI.UFPE.BR>
Subject:      Re: Veils, etc.

In this Zahir-Douglass quarrel about law-lawyers (layers? :-), were both are
saying almost the same thing, a suggestion: How about a socialist lawyer
system? Public lawyers choose by a chance device to each part?

This is the only way I can see to avoid money's power.

Alcino
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Date:         Wed, 11 Nov 1992 13:28:03 -0500
From:         AHMED@DAYTON.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Veils, etc.

Ahmed,

Dating is not the grass root problem and you cannot eliminate dating..

How do you propose to eliminate dating... pass a law?

Some of us like arranged marriages....my brother is happily married
because of arranged marriage.... and some of us like to date and
marry.....   Nothing wrong with either process...

zahir
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Date:         Thu, 5 Nov 1992 10:08:08 -0500
From:         AHMED@DAYTON.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Guns and syringes

Brian,

If its the intention at the time of use..... I do think its time we allow
UZI's and Handguns to0 be sold over the counter to any adult... Why are
we preventing all these good businesses of making weapons to earn some
dough?.. Let them sell it anywhere....If someone uses them improperly, we
can jail them...or better still execute them!

You guys, Emmy and Brian, hace really convinced me...and here I was all
these years opposing gun control and opposing nuclear prolification and
so on.....  The makers should not be prevented from doing business...
no wonder people like me have destroyed our economy....  lets keep selling
to Saddam and all the other dictators.... If they use it on anyone except
their own, we can go and destroy their weapons...then sell them some more..

Zahir
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Date:         Wed, 11 Nov 1992 11:07:55 MEZ
From:         Uwe Hauck <UWEHAUCK@DOSUNI1.RZ.UNI-OSNABRUECK.DE>
Subject:      RE: Right Wings

Well, I think, there are enough people like you and me, worried
about a new uprise of right wing violence. At last the demonstrations
on 9. of November showed to me, that there is not that much support
some of the right wing people would like to have. Most of the
germans are and that is something you can tell people when discussing
about the problems in German Most Germans are against rassism.
The only problem is, that doing something against this kind of
violence and aggression isn't that easy, because nowadays
the "Neonazis" are much better organized (expecially with electronics
like computers and walkie-talkies) and there are a lot of economic
problems in east-germany which lead people to the opinion
they might need a scapegoat.. Uwe
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Date:         Thu, 5 Nov 1992 09:38:42 GMT
From:         "(Peter Mandal)" <eeipml@EEIUC.ERICSSON.SE>
Subject:      Thank you!

>emmy,
>    who's to say there is not an afterlife...?
>  maybe not the same in every instance, or each person's belief, but
>a lasting existence beyond what we as 'humans' are willing to accept and
>understand.  those who believe in the respective gods, will pass on to
>be in their own idea of heaven, possibly.  i will go into this further
>in my next transmission.      joseph...

Thank you Joseph for putting into words what I have been struggling to
find the words to say.
You show a tolerance for others (beliefs (religious and non-religious)) that
I can only admire.

My beliefs, contradictary to 'my' 'Catholic' upbringing??, are based around
what you have said above.

Can it be possible that we (who believe in a supreme being) are worshiping
the same God, be it through different paths/religions? (I realise I leave myself
open to a lot of debate about the validity of 'other religions vs ones own.)

Oliver. Shouldn't this discussion be on a different list?

Peace,
            Peter
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