From: smee@bristol.ac.uk (Paul Smee)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.british
Subject: Re: MAJOR WINS MAJORITY!!!
Date: 16 Apr 92 10:19:32 GMT
Reply-To: P.Smee@bristol.ac.uk (Paul Smee)
Organization: University of Bristol

In article <jjee344@zola.esd.sgi.com> livesey@solntze.esd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:
>I see, so you are telling us that you just wanted to slam the
>Tories, and so you came up with this very specific claim that:
>
>	"Thirteen years ago, the UK was near the top of most 
>	comparative EEC tables; .."

I make no secret of the fact that I want to slam the Tories.  While I
will grudgingly accept that a few of the things they have done have
been good ideas, I maintain that the bulk of their policies have been
doing nothing more than driving this country into the ground.  Now,
some set of people have done quite well out of this personally.  In
particular, people who have managed to remain in employment, who are not
trying to start or maintain small businesses, who are in good health,
and who are making about what I do or more.

(Yes, I have benefited IN POCKET from the Tory rule, but everytime I
see a table showing how much, I'm near the bottom of the better-off
group, or right at the top of the worse-off one, so I can make a rough
guess at the crossover point from that.  So, say, people making around,
oh, maybe (that enough imprecision for you?) 1.5-2 times average family
earnings.  If Labour had won, I would have been out of pocket -- based
on Tory costings of Labour policies -- by about 6 quid a week.)

However, a lot of people aren't in my position, and are worse off.
Some of them a LOT worse off.  I feel some responsibility towards
them.  I also believe 'society' as an entity is much worse off.  (Of
course, according to Maggie 'society' doesn't exist, so it's hard to
argue my beliefs here against hard-line Thatcherites.)

Sounds to me like you support the other viewpoint.  Fine, that's what
politics is all about.  I am personally as certain that the
Thatcher-based government (including Major's initial follow-on) was
dangerous to the well-being of this country, as I am that night follows
day.  And, I have watched it all happen.

Interestingly, Major looks like he might be lightening up.  Virginia
Bottomley is in at Health, and I believe she is more perceptive than
Waldegrave.  Waldegrave has been shuffled out of the way into Chancellor
of the Duchy of Wales, or some similar sinecure, which basically makes 
him a high-paid gofer.  Heseltine is in Trade and Industry, and he
believes that 'under certain conditions' government intervention in the
free market is a good thing -- in fact, that's ultimately the question
which sparked his major breakup with Thatcher.  The new education
minister is an unknown quantity to me, but reports seem to indicate
that he, too, might be a more reasonable choice (from my viewpoint)
than the previous ones.  (Rest assured, now we know who he is, I will
make a point of finding out about him.)

Now, I have no great love for any of the parties, really, and I could
be quite happy with the Tories in power, if they were 'doing the right
things'.  I don't believe they were.  I do believe that if they carry
on the same way for another full 5 year term, that will become painfully
obvious to everyone.  If I turn out to be wrong, I will happily eat my
words.  Major may make some of the necessary changes to make me wrong.
If so, more power to him.

Now, back to my original statement, to which you object.  My more
sweeping claim is that since the Tories took power (be that 13, 12.9,
13.5, or whatever, years ago) they have been running the country into
the ground, and that the UK was generally going downhill when the rest
of the world was going up, on the rare occasion that the UK was going
uphill the rest of the world was doing it faster, and now that everyone
is going downhill the UK is leading the way.  I'll admit you caught me
out on a debating point, and that some of the specific instances I
cited actually come closer to supporting this proposition rather than
the subcase which I initially stated.  I believe I can find figures to
support both these claims.

And, how about, since you've got me digging into bits of the library
which I don't normally inhabit, you go and find some specific figures
and sources to argue your side of the case, instead of just popping up
regularly to tell me I'm wrong?  I'm sure there are some such.  I'm
even sure that there are some we could both use to support our 
respective sides of the argument.  Who knows, if you find enough of
them you could even change my mind.  Just telling me I'm wrong won't
do that.

-- 
Paul Smee, Computing Service, University of Bristol, Bristol BS8 1UD, UK
 P.Smee@bristol.ac.uk - ..!uunet!uknet!bsmail!p.smee - Tel +44 272 303132