HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mike@fionn.lbl.gov (Michael Helm)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Suze / Ireland / Support for paramilitaries
Date: 13 Apr 92 15:40:50 GMT
Article-I.D.: dog.22676
Reply-To: mike@fionn.lbl.gov (Michael Helm)
Organization: N.I.C.E.
NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.3.128.60

trifid@agora.uucp (Roadster Racewerks) writes:
>I challenge people like Holohan to go to the local library and read the most
>main-stream of the *Dublin* newspapers, if they want the real news from "home".

I want to know what the truth is, not necessarily just what I want to
hear, or what someone wants me to believe.  There are good reasons for
being suspicious of the Irish press, in much the same way that the UK
press is suspect.  The American coverage has different problems.  This
doesn't mean they shouldn't be read -- but rather, that more than OCR
should be applied to the text before one's eyes.

>not much like the heroes of the WWI era. Go with an open mind and open eyes. I

I think you should read up on the "heroes of WWI era".  Someone else
has posted well on this.
Xref: sparky soc.culture.celtic:3533 soc.culture.british:6242
From: mmh@cs.qmw.ac.uk (Matthew Huntbach)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic,soc.culture.british
Subject: Re: Update on the Caraher shooting
Date: 13 Apr 92 12:08:43 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Dept, QMW, University of London, UK.

From: holohan@mark.enet.dec.com (Mark Holohan)
>Two Royal Marine Commandos were charged in February for murdering 20
>year-old Fergal Caraher and attempting to murder 24 year-old Michael
>Caraher on December 30, 1990, in Cullyhanna, South Armagh.

This in itself invalidates the opinion expressed by Mark
earlier that the British Army is conducting a genocide against
the Northern Irish Nationalist population. The view expressed
earlier was that the British Army just shoots people down with
out anyone bothering about it. Now Mark himself admits that
those responsible are put on trial for murder.

Latest news is that an IRA bomb in London killed a 14 year old
girl and seriously injured here 7 year old sister.

Matthew Huntbach
From: eac@world.std.com (Eric A Cottrell)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Scottish Gaelic Words for Men and Women
Keywords: Gaelic Words Men Women
Date: 14 Apr 92 19:52:50 GMT
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA

Hi all,
This may sound like a strange request. We are making up signs for the men's
and women's restrooms (or loos). I would like to add the proper scottish
gaelic words to the list. The words for "Men" and "Women" should be enough.
Thanks   73 Eric eac@world.std.com
From: kerr@mitre.org
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Willie Clancy dates?
Keywords: Willie Clancy music Fest, Milltown Malbay, July?
Date: 15 Apr 92 16:41:54 GMT
Article-I.D.: linus.1992Apr15.164154.976
Organization: The MITRE Corporation, McLean, VA, USA

In article <shhirINNl33@cs.utexas.edu>, horne@cs.utexas.edu (Patrick J. Horne) writes:
> The Willie Clancy MusicFest is coming up in Milltown Malbay,
> Ireland some time this summer.  As I recall it us usually 
> the first or second week of July.  Does anyone know the exact
> dates and any other particulars about it?  My son and I will
> be bicycling through Ireland for about a month and would like
> to put this stop in our plans.
> 
> Thanks,
> Pat
> 
> 
> -- 
> ---
> I like boats and bicycles, they're healthier than Valium.
> Pat Horne       CS Dept, Network Manager/Shop Supervisor/Hardware Guru
> (512)471-9517   Univ of Texas, Austin TX 78712   UUCP:cs.utexas.edu!horne


The official opening for the Scoil Samraidh Willie Clancy is always on
the first Saturday in July. This year, that would be July 4th. I have 
not seen the program for this year, but if it follows past form there
will be an opening lecture (I hear that this year's will be by Dr. Michael
O Suilleabhain of University College Cork) on Saturday evening, a visit
to Willie Clancy's grave on Sunday afternoon, a ceili on Sunday night,
with the classes beginning on Monday and going through the next Saturday.
There is a recital or concert each evening, frequently followed by a set
dance ceili.

If you're planning to stay overnight anywhere near Milltown Malbay, make
your reservations early. It may already be too late. "Early" seems to
get earlier every year!

  John Kerr
From: mbrennan@swift.cs.tcd.ie (Micheal O'Braonain)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: foot in mouth
Date: 8 Apr 92 11:57:51 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Department, Trinity College Dublin

Are we witnessing another conversion of the scale of Paul on the
road to Damascus or what ...?

geraghj@NeXTwork.Rose-Hulman.Edu (John Geraghty) wrote a couple of days
ago staunchly defending Limerick, its University and environs, against
attack by a yuppie from Trinity.

The contributor was keen to point out the number and quality of drinking 
emporia in close proximity to the university.  First among their number
was The Stables.  Today I see the same contributor - who is offering
an opinion on a different topic - confess: 

>Ah I swear to God I'll never 
>complain about the Guinness they slop up in the Stables again.

a fitting tribute to the cordiality of the staff and the quality
of the beverage you'll agree!

>Yes Indiana was fun. Terre Haute has no right to call its self a city
>though....It is sadly lacking in facilities for the youth. Also been
>only 19 in country that has a drinking age of 21 is no barrel of laughs.

Can I ask the contributor what facilities are available for the youth 
of Limerick?  I contend that if the drinking age in Limerick was 21,
then social life might revolve around the De Valera ideals of
comely maidens dancing at crossroads, while their barrel chested men
engaged in healthy national pastimes in Thomond physical education
complex.

On second thoughts make that comely maidens dancing at roundabouts,
it being more applicable in Castletroy.  I wouldn't want to be accused 
of not taking the city's modern high-tech facilities into account, 
now, would I?

>John Geraghty
-- 
 ,   ,  ,      ,              ,       ,          ,          ,  ,      ,
Micheal O Braonain     Roinn Riomheolaiochta, Colaiste Na Trionoide, BAC 2.
Email                  mbrennan@cs.tcd.ie
"Indecision is not an ignoble condition" - Brian Friel.
From: mike@fionn.lbl.gov (Michael Helm)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Bagpiper seeks correct newsgroup
Summary: You can't get away from it that ez, bud :-)
Date: 16 Apr 92 18:00:14 GMT
Article-I.D.: dog.22747
Reply-To: mike@fionn.lbl.gov (Michael Helm)
Organization: N.I.C.E.
NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.3.128.60

David C Daye writes:
#>Incidentally, let me introduce myself as the *only* American who has no
#>position on Northern Ireland.  I'm too busy with my reeds.

But are you a *Catholic* piper or a *Protestant* piper????
Organization: Rohm and Haas Company
Date: Monday, 6 Apr 1992 08:05:53 EDT
From: Aengus Lawlor <RBYAML@ROHVM1.BITNET>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Liking Indiana (was Re: Sick'n'tired of the "Troubles"

In article <1992Apr4.212857.25332@macc.wisc.edu>, oconnell@vms.macc.wisc.edu
(Kevin Patrick O'Connell) says:
>
>I think Suze has hit the nail on the head.  Continue to read scc for
>the articles that ARE about culture, music, literature, Flann O'Brien
>:-), and so on, and send the rest out the chute.  I agree with the
>first poster in this thread.  The reason I asked some time ago about
>how people know whether folks are Catholic or Protestant was to see a
>different twist on the argument; that is, to see if folks would run
>with the idea that maybe a bunch of white Anglo Christians who grew up
>in Ireland may have less to fight about today than they think.  Ah,
>well.  Any Crusikeen Lawn fans out there?  I must admit that much of
>it is over my head, having to do with various foibles of DeValera, and
>some of it in Latin (!), but the style of writing is always a joy to
>read!
>
>See ya,
>
>Kevin
And maybe if you actually bothered to read some of the postings on that
trivial and boring subject of Northern Ireland, you might have learnt that
"Catholic" and "Protestant" are only synonyms for Nationalist/Republican and
Unionist/Loyalist. When used in the context of Northern Ireland, they aren't
always religious labels. Dismissing them with pious and patronising references
to 'Anglo Christians' takes either ignorance or gall.

(And from somebody who blithely admits that the various foibles of Dev are
over his head!)

Aengus
--
RBYAML@ROHMHAAS.COM                    Aengus Lawlor
RBYAML@ROHVM1.BITNET                   (who used to be ALAWLOR@DIT.IE)
"How about some of that famous Dublin wit, Barman?"
"Certainly, sir. Would that be Dry or Sparkling?"
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic,soc.culture.british
From: rdawson@sebastian.carleton.ca (Ron Dawson)
Subject: Re: Update on the Caraher shooting
Organization: Carleton University, Ottawa Ont.
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1992 06:22:05 GMT

In article <1992Apr9.140801.29545@rdg.dec.com> preece@sbpexe.enet.dec.com writes:
>
>In article <1992Apr9.123937.6164@e2big.mko.dec.com>,
>holohan@mark.enet.dec.com (Mark Holohan) writes:
>
>
>>
>>At the time of the incident, the British armed forces alleged that the
>                                                       ^^^^^^^
>>Caraher testified at the June 1991 Public Inquiry into the shooting
>         ^^^^^^^^^
>	Interesting slant in the use of words, there.....
>	one side "testifies", the other merely "alleges".
>	Just a smidgeon of bias, maybe ?

  Huh?  Aren't these the correct terms?  The armed forces were
  "alleging" such and such.  Caraher, on the other hand, gave 
  testimony at an inquiry.  I actually found this article to be 
  pretty good.    

- Ron

rdawson@ccs.carleton.ca
From: gmcquary@Ingres.COM (George F. McQuary)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: USA go home (Was Re: Shooting)
Date: 14 Apr 92 20:25:32 GMT
Reply-To: gmcquary@Ingres.COM (George F. McQuary)
Organization: Ask Computer Systems Inc., Ingres Division, Alameda CA 94501

In article <1992Apr9.140801.29545@rdg.dec.com> preece@sbpexe.enet.dec.com writes:
>>  Mark Holohan, DEC, USA        "Character is what you are in the dark" - BB
>
>Odd, isn't it, how the further one gets from the situation, the more
>entrenched and volubly-expressed one's opinions become ? 

No one here is shooting each other, bombing the subways, or moving in standing
armies as part of the expression of their opinions. I'd say we here in the USA
are remarkably well restrained compared to some. 

As to being well entrenched, well, some might say twenty years of not being
able to find a solution is somewhat entrenched. 

There are more Irish-Americians (18 million at last count) than there are Irish.
Every Irish-Americian learns as a child that seven of the US presidents were
all or in part of Irish decent (Now eight with Reagan?) so we have obtained here
a status in the world not enjoyed by Ireland itself.  We came to this country
because of famine, having our land stolen from us, conscription, or as white
slaves for the plantations. Because of this, the average Irish-americian
is fairly pissed off at the UK.

When faced with such arrogance in the sons of the people who did this to us,
it is  difficult NOT to cheer whenever someone blows up more British. I very much
resent the attitude that Irish-americians should keep quiet about Irish politics.



--
George F. McQuary 
"He is mad, bad and dangerous to know." -Lady Caroline Lamb
From: mike@fionn.lbl.gov (Michael Helm)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Tory as an Irish word
Date: 10 Apr 1992 16:53:20 GMT
Organization: N.I.C.E.
Reply-To: mike@fionn.lbl.gov (Michael Helm)
NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.3.128.60

"Whig" also has Scottish roots but the etymology is so confusing
I can't tell whether it derives from Gaelic, Saxon, both, or
neither.
From: gln@cs.arizona.edu (Gary L. Newell)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Secondary Identities (Was Re: USA go home (Was Re: Shooting))
Date: 16 Apr 92 18:37:18 GMT
Organization: U of Arizona CS Dept, Tucson

In article <31801@skye.dcs.ed.ac.uk>, morna@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Morna J Findlay) writes:
> What interests me is how a 4th or 5th generation American chooses to
> identify their preferred "nationality".

 That is a very interesting question. I hope someone has an answer for it. I
really have no idea how it occurs - in my case, I just remember growing
up Irish, going to the various get togethers at the local AOH club, 
listening to stories of the Irish and so on. Although I have French and
English blood as well, these cultures really never showed up in the
course of my life. Strange....


> If your surname is "Findlay", for example, then you are obviously
> of Scots descent. But perhaps in only one of many other lines
> of descent. Maybe your great-grandpa was a Scot. Your other 3 great
> grandpas may have been - a Swede, an Italian, a Mexican. Your four
> great-grannies may have been - a Frenchwoman, a German, a black
> slave and a Cherokee.

The beauty of America in my opinion. My surname is English. However,
if we go back to just my Grandparents we get a Tully, Blye, and
Dumais. You are correct, I think, in your observation that it
does not necessarily represent some sort of measure of pureness
of ones blood but rather an identity of culture of some sort that
has its roots elsewhere.
 
> Does it depend - I only conjecture - on a dominant parent and how
> he or she sees themself? Is it your peers? Are there some nationalities
> that it is more popular to be associated with than others? If you could
> choose between an equally split German and Irish background, is one
> "hipper" than the other?

Wow - this is great - I had never actually thought about it. I think the answers
are "yes" to all. I know I had one strong-willed granmother from county Cork
who was very political and tended to dominate those around her so I would
guess she influenced the path my family took. Peers of course have an
effect, although it is less true today, neighborhoods played a very important
role in the US - Irish neighborhoods, Italians, Jewish, French whatever...
When you grew up in the "Irish" part of town, you tend to identify with
being Irish. I don't know if "hipper" is the correct term but I'm sure
things change over time - ceetainly it was probably not a grand idea
to celebrate your German heritage during the war, and I have personally
known folks from Nam who claimed to be Thai and so forth...
 
> Morna Findlay 					JANET:morna@uk.ac.ed.dcs
From: mike@shemesh.lbl.gov (Michael Helm)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: What's Celtic?
Date: 7 Apr 92 22:38:21 GMT
Article-I.D.: dog.22563
Reply-To: mike@shemesh.lbl.gov (Michael Helm)
Organization: N.I.C.E.
NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.3.128.63

Roger Vanderveen writes:
>"Intuitively obvious" is far from fact in linguistics. It's an idea which may

It's not a linguistics problem, actually, or at least not a very
interesting one -- there is no evolution/sound-shift stuff involved,
that's simply what the Greeks decided to call these people.  Now why
would they do that?  Do you think they randomly assigned those names?

>	The OED articles on each of these words are very interesting (which

>Didn't the OED tell you that "Wales" comes from OE "wealas", meaning
>"foreigners"?

All I can say, brother, is read it & weep (the OED articles, that is).
Pretty clear you haven't yet.  Now "Welsh", that's a linguistics problem.
==mwh
From: gln@cs.arizona.edu (Gary L. Newell)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Two Celtic cultures
Date: 12 Apr 92 08:49:49 GMT
Organization: U of Arizona CS Dept, Tucson

In article <178@bazooka.Altos.COM>, cbenson@bazooka.Altos.COM (Christopher Benson) writes:
> Perhaps I am not alone in this view...

 I'm sure you're not - but it is still bogus...

> I am a Celt (born in Wales; Welsh Mother; Irish Father) and I am
> greatly interested in things Celtic wherever they may be.
> However, my feelings about Northern Ireland, The 32 counties,
> the likes of Sin Fein, Ian Paisley, the *British Army* and such
> things have a separate identity to me.

 Well, I can respect that - but frankly, so what? IF this group were
named soc.culture.celtic.chris.benson, then I might understand but...

> I totally concede that *the troubles* are a Celtic matter, but I
> wish there were two newsgroups which distinguished between the
> *Irish Question* and more unifying Celtic matters. If it were so,
> I am sure that I would read both groups, but would choose to select
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 Then clearly it makes little difference if they are in the same place -right?
Let's face it, it is trivial to skip those articles which one does not wish to
read at some point in time...

> Is it possible to have a selection of interesting communal Celtic
> postings without wading through the morass of 6-26 politics?

 Kill files would help you but why? If you really don't want to read
an article, it takes all of a half a second or so to hit the "n" key
and go onto the next...

> Constructive input about the *solution* would interest me, but I
> feel it belongs to another group than that of honest Celts such
> as Craig Cockburn, Geraint Edwards, and many others.

OH, well as one of the "dishonest celts" I can only say "screw you"
take your pompous attitude and stuff it where the sun don't shine. The
day I care more about your so-called "honest celts" than I do myself, I'll
seel help quickly...

> I prepare for ripostes from Holo-folk etc.

 Cute-  anyone who doesn't agree with you belongs in one group right? Ah yes,
S.C.C - home of the pompous elite... I had forgotten...


			gln
From: oconnell@vms.macc.wisc.edu (Kevin Patrick O'Connell)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Two Celtic cultures--Netiquette, folks!
Date: 14 Apr 92 23:04:22 GMT
Organization: University of Wisconsin Academic Computing Center

I would like to suggest that using words such as "absurd" and "stupid"
to describe the positions of others on any topic is not conducive to
free and open discussion.  Some meek souls that have what they may 
feel to be naive comments need to feel free to comment without being 
attacked personally.  Now you may think that either 1) I'm just typing 
words into a computer, who can that hurt, or 2) nobody will tell ME 
how and what to write.  My responses to these positions are:

1)  You CNA hurt feelings and discourage discussion by flaming people 
too strongly.  Not everyone has the access to fine quality asbestos 
undies that Mr. Holohan does.

2)  True, nobody can dictate what gets posted in unmoderated groups. 
However, if persons are interested in truly free discussion, they will 
strive to respond to posts as if they were face to face with the 
person addressed.  

Referring to posts, ideas, or people as absurd or stupid, or 
"anal-retentive" is counter-productive and separates us from the 
professed goal of open and free exchange.  

In short, there are responsibilities that are inseparable from rights, 
and being mindful of rights, we should also be attentive to our 
obligations.  

Flame off.

Kevin
Xref: sparky soc.culture.celtic:3472 soc.culture.british:6031
From: gsmith@bbn.com (Graeme Smith)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic,soc.culture.british
Subject: Re: Update on the Caraher shooting
Date: 10 Apr 1992 13:03:45 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Host: bbn.com

darragh@retix.com (Darragh Stokes) writes:

>In article <1992Apr9.123937.6164@e2big.mko.dec.com> holohan@mark.enet.dec.com (Mark Holohan) writes:
>>
>>
>>                          Caraher Shootings Update
>>                          by Sandy Carlson (Belfast)
>>
>>
>>Two Royal Marine Commandos were charged in February for murdering 20
>>year-old Fergal Caraher and attempting to murder 24 year-old Michael
>>Caraher on December 30, 1990, in Cullyhanna, South Armagh.  Richard
>>Elkington (23) and Andrew Callaghan (20) both responded "Not Guilty",
>>after a 5-minute hearing and were remanded until March 4.  The charging
>>followed Belfast barrister Reginald Weir's review of the RUC's file, on
>>the request of the Director of Public Prosecutions.
>> [..rest of article deleted..]

>As a regular reader who finds Mark Holohan's posting usually to be based on
>historical inaccuracies etc.,  I feel that I have to commend him on a very rational article.  Give the facts ( trying to minimise the emotion ) and the facts
>will speak for themselves.  

The tone of Mark's postings are dependent on the source he is copying.  
They are of course necessarily biased, however this last one,
apart from a number of selected terms such as "for murdering", and
others pointed out by a previous poster, had a significantly reduced
rhetoric score.  On the occasion when Mark does respond in his own words
it very quickly becomes apparant that his objectivity and eloquence
is controlled by the media in front of him.

Graeme
From: tahonen@katk.Helsinki.FI (Ahonen Timo)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Nat / constitution info needed
Date: 8 Apr 92 11:15:22 GMT
Organization: University of Helsinki, Computing Centre

The Economist March 28th: "The Nationalists have attracted support from pop 
stars and a fine actor, Sean Connery."
Question: who are these pop stars, who have supported the SNP?

An earlier posting about the constitutional question polls included the
information that 55% of the supporters of devolution support it as a 
slippery-slope to independence. Was this of all the those interviewed (= of 
all Scots) or of those who already supported devolution at all? Or of the 
Labour voters, as recall vaguely? I've lost the original posting.

Thank You

Timo Ahonen               *  "Freedom rarely wears a tie"  - Loesje *
University of Helsinki    *  "The more it stays the same,           *
Finland                   *   the less it changes..."  - Spinal Tap *
Timo.Ahonen@Helsinki.FI

P.S. If I'd be eligible to vote in Scotland, I'd vote tactical.
From: skaamjm@ucl.ac.uk (Matthew Moore)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: shoot to kill?
Date: 15 Apr 92 15:08:28 GMT
Organization: Bloomsbury Computing Consortium

smckinty@sunicnc.France.Sun.COM (Steve McKinty - Sun ICNC) writes:

>In article <92101.110916RBYAML@ROHVM1.BITNET>, RBYAML@ROHVM1.BITNET (Aengus Lawlor) writes:
>   > In article <9359@baird.cs.strath.ac.uk>, imcc@cs.strath.ac.uk (Iain McCord)
>   > says:
>   > >
>   > >  I'm afraid I don't understand the phrase 'shoot to kill' : is there a way to
>   > >shoot people without killing?
>   > Of course there are ways to shoot people without killing. In some cases, it
>   > takes more skill to kill than to wound.


>That depends a lot on the circumstances. A good marksman in ideal circumstances
>can indeed shoot to wound (although a shot from a modern high-velocity weapon
>can cause a very serious shock, and death, even hitting a non-vital part of
>the body).

>In real situations, the only permitted reason for a soldier to shoot someone
>is because they believe that person is going to shoot someone else. There's no
>point in shooting an armed man in the leg if he's aiming a weapon at you, he
>can still shoot back. Given that a soldier may only have seconds to decide,
>its asking a lot to expect them to decide which hand the attacker's gun is in,
>and then to shoot (and hit) that hand or arm. The only reliable way to
>stop an armed attacker is to kill them, and that is what soldiers are trained
>to do.

>In any event, the phrase 'shoot-to-kill policy' is usually presumed to be a
>misnomer used by a politician in the heat of the moment, when he meant to say
>'shoot-on-sight policy'.

'Shoot to kill' refers to a number of what appear to have been
ambushes of one sort or another. In most cases, the victims were
unarmed, in all cases, there was a failure to preserve the scene for
forensic (or any other) examination.

In all these cases, serious doubts remain, in one (the Gibraltar
shootings), it was not even claimed that the victims were armed).