From: J5J@psuvm.psu.edu (John A. Johnson)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Re: WEEMBA and DABROSKI Angst (Was: Re: Achilles heels for religion?
Date: 8 Apr 92 12:22:48 GMT
Distribution: world,public
Organization: Penn State University

In article <72944@netnews.upenn.edu>, weemba@libra.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P
Wiener) says:
>
>In article <92097.134726J5J@psuvm.psu.edu>, J5J@psuvm (John A. Johnson)
>writes:
>>I'm trying to determine whether I was mistaken to suggest that my
>>screen was filled with postings from nonatheists.  You are not
>>helping at all to resolve whether I was mistaken or not.
>
>May I suggest that it's not important whether you were mistaken or not?

Maybe it is not important to you if I make mistakes, but it IS important
to me.

>You received your impression, but I don't think you received it from my
>words, but from my choice of "sides".

That may indeed be one source of my impressions.  I'm perfectly willing
to admit that I leapt far beyond the evidence in assuming you were a
nonatheist.  But what does that matter, now that I am trying to get to
the truth?

[Matthew]
>>>Why don't you help me out?  Which God do I believe in?
>
>>Belief in ANY God will disqualify you from using the label "atheist"
>>to describe yourself.  Define God any way you wish.
>
>"God" is the Creator of Emacs, the One True Editor.  Does this disqualify
>me?

Humorous, but evasive.

[in reply to the paradox of believing one can have a relationship with
 a being whose existence one denies]

>Nu.

Unless R. Pirsig got it wrong, the reply is "mu," rather than "nu."

>
>Anyway, the above is a koan, but it is not what I was discussing.  It is
>not absurd for a religion to say one thing, and a person to say another.
                                                 ^ ^^^^^^
No kidding.  That's why I want to know what YOU say.

>
>>>If you're going to put the theist label on me,
>>>you're obligated to fill in some details, please.
>
>>Absolutely not.  The question is not what KIND of theist you are,
>>but whether or not you are an atheist.
>
>Evasion works both ways.  I haven't a clue regarding "God", so maybe
>if you tell me the details, I'll be able to answer your question.

Well, in article <73042@netnews.upenn.edu>, you say in response to
Graham Mattews:
>
>Since he hasn't told me what "God" means, and I am clueless--Jewish
>tradition doesn't help me here, since it teaches that God is totally
>unknowable--I really don't know how to answer his question.
>. . .I think you and John and others are being evasive: what
>do you mean by "God" that he deduced I believed in?

I assumed that you believed that you had a relationship with the
totally unknowable Jewish God by virtue of your ancestry.  Do you,
or do you not believe you have such a relationship?
>
>One Jewish definition is that an atheist (for a Jew) is     | D H l a | gtk
>someone who does not keep the Sabbath.  Is that acceptable  | a e y g | rhi
>to you?  The fact that I visit my rabbi Uncle Farley every  | m   i a | eib
>Sabbath and out of respect for _him_ do not engage in any   | n i n i | pso
>Sabbath violations suddenly make me a theist in your eyes?  | . s g n | -,!

Ahh, but you say that this is only ONE Jewish definition of atheism.
Do you meet ALL Jewish qualifications for nonatheism?