From: petersm@jacobs.CS.ORST.EDU (Marguerite Petersen)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.poems
Subject: Re: sonata... / Marek "love as a drug", "sex as need", Re: Need - A Poem
Date: 21 Dec 92 12:06:58 GMT
Article-I.D.: leela.1h4c12INN4rm
Organization: Computer Science Outreach Services - Oregon State University
NNTP-Posting-Host: jacobs.cs.orst.edu

In article <1992Dec20.164757.18166@news.cs.indiana.edu> marek@moose.cs.indiana.edu (Marek Lugowski) writes:
>[poem follows]
>
>In article <BzJtvp.8wz@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu>
>gdnikoli@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu (Greg Nikolic) writes:
>> petersm@jacobs.CS.ORST.EDU (Marguerite Petersen) writes:
>>>In light of recent postings Re:referring to the act of sex as fucking I  
>>>was inspired to write the following.  It contains neither flowery allusion
>>>nor the word fuck, but I think you will get the message nonetheless. :-)
>>>			I am the answer
>>>			to your need
>>>			and I am willing
>>>			to answer your need
>>  [rest of enrapturing poem left out]
>>
>>  Finally! A good, sold, erotic poem, from a woman no less. Well written.
>>If you have any sequels in mind post them please.
>
>I was promising myself not to comment on Marg's poem, i.e. let it be,
>let it be, in the spirit of John Lennon and Merry Berry, but you, Dear
>Greg, supplied the drop that runneth the chalice over.  I apologize
>for any bruises this may cause; the tone will be polite and lite. :)

Ahhhh, where to start?  I guess I'll just jump right in.  Thanks for
being polite although I assure you it isn't necessary.   I know I came
down rather hard on whatisname for beating up on defenseless newcomers,
but I am capable of taking whatever is thrown my way. :-)

>Marg's poem uses the "sex as need" metaphor which I find unsatisfying, and
>on reflection, even Marg should find confining.  Is sex heroin?  do you really
>want to feel compelled or do you want to fuck of your free desire?  Do you
>want to be in control of your life or do you want your life to control you?
>Your need sounds like being in heat or rut and, well, needing it.  It is one
>thing to be overcome by desire and quite another to need money, or need
>oxygen, or need to urinate.  Anyone who seriously says "I need to get laid"
>has heard too many pop songs or is overstating their requirements.

"Act in haste, repent at leisure."  I would have been better off to have
remembered this.  In my haste to post a poem that was erotic yet was
neither flowery and insipid, nor used words that *some* consider vulgar,
I chose a title and and a metaphor which (although quite correct as 
defined in the dictionary as *want*) nevertheless does have other
connotations for some.  By the way I am not one of those who considers
the word *fuck* to be vulgar, obscene or to have connotations of
brutality.  I agree with you that it is a perfectly good Anglo-Saxon
word to describe the sex act.  It does however have very negative
connotations for a great many people.  

I also think there are various levels of *need*.  And no, sex is not in
the same category of need that oxygen and food, etc. are.  However, I do
think it is a need of every being, IMHO, although I admit there are 
those who will disagree.  I have no desire to argue that point, however.
That may just be me.

>This leads us to suspect sentimentality in a poem that has one lover
>assure the other that the need is detected and a need will be met.
>Marie and I satirized one rap commentator's reference to me as Marie's
>"primary care-giver" in a poem I re-posted recently pretty much on
>these grounds.  Even femnists fall into the trap of this metaphor,
>which I find funny though unfortunate.  This is related, semiotically,
>to the "love is a drug" metaphor which we hear on the radio as well,
>in part because there are no adequate images for expressing strong
>sexual desire directly.

I am my *own* care-giver.  I ask nothing from anyone.  I do, however,
give freely of that which I *choose* to give.  

>Love is not a drug.  Love is a state of mind, which means it is
>mediated by neurotransmitters.  A drug would be something that
>interferes with your neurotransmitters, like caffeine.  Caffeine is a
>drug.  I wish more people would talk in their poems about coffee and
>their need for it and about meeting their lovers' need for it, and
>about coffee being a drug.

I agree that love is not a drug.  My poem, however, was not about love.
Love is very complicated and I'm not sure that I really understand it.
I do know that I *feel* certain things for certain people and the word
I use to describe that feeling is love, but that doesn't mean I know
what it is.  I do try on occasion to write about love, but not very
often.  

>Greg seems to think that a good erotic poem should avoid obscenity
>(whatever that is), vulgarity, pornography and upsetting language, but
>he seems perfectly contented with masked metaphors that silently guide
>into mentalities that are neither honest nor thoughtful.  Do you want to
>live a life with love as a drug?  Sex as a need?  Doesn't needing someone
>sexually come many steps closer to objectifying women (babe, I need you)
>than speaking frankly with clear mind (let's fuck)?

I don't think a good erotic poem should necessarily avoid course or
upsetting language.  I also don't think a good erotic poem necessarily
has to *include* course or upsetting language.  I think my poem was
erotic (and so does my SO).  I'm not going to deal with your comment
about the objectification of women as it would be much too long to
discuss my opinions on this subject as I have been a woman for *many*
years.

>Your honor, I have no further questions.  :)

>				-- Marek
>		

I appreciate your comments and on a second thought and even a third
and fourth, actually much of the day as I baked cookies (eat your
heart out Hilary :-) ) and prepared a lasagne dinner, I have decided
that perhaps a more acceptable (to you at any rate) title for my poem
might be *Desire*.  Surely, you can't have so many objections to that?

Kathleen O'Toole,
Bringer of Light

-- 
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"Insufficient facts always invites danger, Captain."- Spock in Space Seed
	Marg Petersen	petersm@jacobs.cs.orst.edu
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