From: markm@ogicse.ogi.edu (Mark Morrissey)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: To Laura
Date: 5 Sep 92 03:29:10 GMT
Organization: Oregon Graduate Institute (formerly OGC), Beaverton, OR

In article <1992Sep03.193449.227@microsoft.com> bobsarv@microsoft.com (Bob Sarver) writes:
>
> [lots of line walking, backtracking to a degree from the generalizations
>  which he has been making here recently]

Bobby dearest,
(sorry, that's campy and I know how you hate it so)

Laura has asked you some very pointed questions which you try to sidestep
and dodge by posing back question of your own.  Asking questions is good,
but if you expect people to answer your queries, you must be polite and
answers theirs.

Be a sport and participate.  Your childish tactics of avoidance are getting
entirely too boring.  We want to like you Bobby, but you won't let us.  All
we ask is participation.  We don't expect agreement, just respect for others.

>/ (laura)
>/ I keep wondering why it is that you think that this is the ``threatening
>/ Gay'' which invokes the not open-minded behaviour.  
>
>Because that has been my experience, and the experience of many friends.
>And because I see this same principle played out in other minority groups.
>People accept small differences more quickly than they do huge differences.
>(Now if the difference is genuine, as in black vs. white, I don't expect
>blacks to try to lighten their skin or whites to darken theirs; that's
>not what I mean).
>

But Bobby, now you go off and give all of these fine examples which are
based on already knowing something personal about the subject.  What
you seem to be saying is "don't prejudge".  However, you are running
around here prejudging people like mad.  Try to get to know a few more
people before you go off the deep end.  Tolerance is good, after all.

>I do not see a corresponding desire in the gay community to distance 
>ourselves from negative stereotypes of gays (other than the child molester 
>stereotype that Clayton would have us all buy into).  

On the contrary.  I see a great many people trying to distance themselves
from the queer equivalent of an "Uncle Tom".  Being a lackey, no matter
how noble you may think the cause, the still being a lackey.  It does
not enhance your position, but rather, it makes you a slave.

>Let me ask you this:  do you believe that negative gay stereotypes even 
>exist?  What are some examples?

yes.  you.

>I don't personally find  feminine men attractive, but as long as I
>perceive that it is their natural personality which I see, I respect them
>for being genuine and real.

a point in your favor.

>Masculinity and femininity are on a broad spectrum, and it would
>be a boring and dull world indeed if all the men were supermasculine,
>and all the women were superfeminine.  That is not what I am
>objecting to.  No one should have to apologize for what and who
>they are.

Not even if they find happiness in campy, affected behavior.  Because,
THAT IS WHO THEY ARE.  Buy a clue.  You are so close it is amazing.

>What I am talking about is the rehearsed, practiced campy acts that
>many gays seem to thrive on.  This is _not_ a personality trait; it is 
>practiced, and rehearsed.  By definition, personality is not practiced--it
>is natural, needing no practice.  

You must absolutely hate those cute little butch het boys who practice
fighting and name calling and bashing.  Why don't you hop over into
soc.men and tell them how their dirty, condenscending jokes are practiced
and that they must stop now as they offend your sensibilities.

>Some of them spend hours getting the lines right, working on the facial 
>expressions - - the way someone would work at developing a good 
>British accent, for example.

Ever watch a couple 4th graders fight.  Kind of funny, huh?  Ever see
a few college kids jump someone and beat them half to death.  A little
more practiced.  Take your moral indignation to the world, Bob.  Lots
of things in this life are practiced behaviors, including bigotry.

>They are both (in my opinion) attention-getting mechanisms,
>which unfortunately don't do the gay movement any good.

IN YOUR OPINION!!  Please remember not to speak for the world until
such time a Elizabeth appoints you heir apparant.

>(laura)
>/ If they are
>/ hurting you, can you find any moral ground between wishing that they 
>/ were not there and wishing that all Gaypeople were not there?
>
>Well, this gets back to the question of:  is it possible for individual
>members of a group to act in ways that defeat group goals?  
>
>If "no", explain how this is impossible.
>
>If "yes", describe how such an event could be identified; what are its
>characteristic qualities?

Not fair, Bob.  She asked first.  Make a statement and stand by it.
Trying to turn the burdon of proof back on Laura isn't fair.  You 
thrive on this tactic.  Time to change (tactic, that is).

>(laura)
>/ The world is full of people who do stupid, foolish, wasteful,
>/ idiotic, things.  If you choose to group `weird' Gaypeople in that
>/ list, then, we disagree, but so be it.  I let those whom I fathom
>/ as idiotic and foolish waste on their merry way.  Why do you
>/ follow different rules?  And what rules are they?
>
>
>I thought this was a discussion group for issues such as this.  Am I wrong?

No, this is a discussion about motss.  Read the FAQ.

What you are attempting to do is move the spotlight.  We are discussing
issues which you, oh so grandly, brought into the forum.  However, while
people are addressing your issues in a forward fashion, you are trying
to be slightly more slippery than an eel.  Your charge and slink, charge
and slink methodology just isn't winning too many points.

You are bringing certain tools to the table which seem to please you.  When
others use these same tools, you cry foul.  I am certainly tired of your
childish nonsense and would like for you to take responsibility for what
you have said here and either defend it directly and maturely or look for
a point of resolution.  You seem to feel that each issue has only two
positions and there is no room for understanding or compromise.  The real
value of this forum is exploration and understanding.  When you understand
this, then you will succeed.

I do support your position as it applies to yourself and have no reason
to suspect that you have never met a individual who disagrees with
your position (at least to the extent that some of your coworkers do
seem to disagree).  However, your generalizations and methods of attacking
others which you have exhibited in this forum are nausiating.

Please do not go away, you do have real value in the ongoing discussions
as well as threads yet to be originated.  However, please try to work
within the framework which has evolved here over time.  This framework
is not intended to diminish you in any way, but to assist you in not
stepping on the diversity which already flourishes here.

--mark
--
Mark Morrissey           One Hatred to rule them all.  One Hatred to find them.
markm@cse.ogi.edu        One Hatred to bring them all and in the darkness bind
                         them.  In the land of Bigotry where the Shadows lie.