HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: pchang@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Pei-Yuan Chang)
Subject: Question about TI
Keywords: "Taiwanese"?  "Mainlanders"?
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 01:23:28 GMT

 Hi, I am not asking for arguments, I really have a question for friends
discussing TI.  Please e-mail me if you would like to share your thoughts with 
me.  (Please don't persuade me to support anything, no matter TI or the KMT, 
it's not my purpose).

 OK, let me get this straight: I wrote a long paper this qaurter about TW
arousing discussions on TI in the class.  I'm just curious about the following
statement in the whole TI idea: why "mainlanders" should be kicked out of the
island after TI?

 Some of my friends said that it's only a kind of political appealing.  Well, I
am not so optimistic.  Both of my parents are "mainlanders", coming to TW
around 1949, so I am surely a "pure mainlander".  Am I?  I was born in TW and
had lived there for over 20 years.  Shouldn't I be a Taiwanese?  I love TW and
have no feeling for the Mainland China, so how can I be regarded as a
mainlander (or ex-provine)?

 The only thing makes me so "different" is my "terrible" pronunciation of
Tiawanese (however, I can speak fluent Taiwanese while saying dirty words, ha!)
and the time my parents came to TW, which was 200 years late than the ancestors
of those so-called "pure Taiwanese".

 I just got the following feelings: some TI supporters think that ex-province
people equal to the KMT.  Oh, my god!  Kill me please!

 I am not coming for arguments.  No personal attacks, thanks!

--Christine
From: mcyang@pollux.usc.edu (Bien-Chao Iunn)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
Subject: Re: The Foreign Minister of PRC said ...
Date: 26 Aug 1992 15:36:21 -0700
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: pollux.usc.edu

In article <HJj-pz#@engin.umich.edu> chen@caen.engin.umich.edu (Jian Chen) writes:
>This year, ROC government got some diplomatic relationships with small
>countries by giving them a huge amount of money. I believe this made 
>the Foreign Minister really unhappy and he did what he said one year
>ago. I wish ROC government can be wise and do not make any aggresive
							    ?????????
>move. Otherwise, some of netters will cry again and say "a long time loyal
>friend" S. Africa betray them. Probably, all of the dirty words today against 
>S. Korea will be used for S. Africa.
>
>	May God bless all of Chinese.


China is the real aggressor.   By forcing other country to cut relationship
with the so-called "Republic of China", China is trying her best to annex
Taiwan by isolating her from the interntional community first.   KMT is also
at fault due to the the territorial claim over China which puts Taiwan at a 
very embarrassed position in terms of getting international recognition.

This kind of aggressive attempt only show us how China is going to treat
Taiwanese once they succeed in annexing Taiwan.

No, it is not going to happen.  We Taiwanese are going to have our own
country.  Long live Republic of Taiwan !
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
From: tsai@tecrus.enet.dec.com (Kuo-Yeang Tsai)
Subject: Re: News 3/9/92
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 13:39:03 GMT


In article <1992Sep3.022446.9389@nuscc.nus.sg>, elelyc@nuscc.nus.sg (Y.C. Liang) writes...
>BUSH DECIDES TO END BAN ON SALE OF F-16S TO TAIWAN
> 
>WASHINGTON -- President George Bush has decided to lift a decade-old ban
>on the sale of F-16 fighter jets to Taiwan, the White House announced
>yesterday.  "The president will recommend the sale of 150 F-16 A/Bs", an
>official aboard the president's jet said as Mr. Bush flew from
>Washington to South Dakota on a campaign trip.
> 
>The (Bush) administration would now argue that the military balance
>between China and Taiwan has been fundamentally changed by Beijing's
>recent purchase of advanced Su-27 fighters from Russia, official said.
>Taiwan has older and less capable US-built F-5s and F-104s.

Anyone care to comment on "F-16 A/B vs. Su-27" ? Or "F-16 A/B vs. Mig-29/31"?
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan,soc.culture.korean
From: kim_sh@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Sung Hyun Kim)
Subject: Re: Two Chinas and Two Koreas
Organization: HAC - Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 17:35:47 GMT

In article <BtKMLt.L9K@news.cso.uiuc.edu> klg0582@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Ken-Huang Lin) writes:
>switching the recognization.  However, it is fair to call the
>S. Korean government cheating.  Even when Taipei made it public that
>the normalization between S. Korea and China was imminent, S. Korea
>still denied it.  S. Korean President was joking when he said "while
>making new friend S. Korea won't forget old friend".  S. Korea didn't
>notify Taipei with enough time for Taiwan to prepare.  She even
>blocked Taiwan's intention to sell the embassy like what Taiwan did
>with the embassy in USA more than 10 years ago.

Come on, even I don't believe what Korean President says.
Who takes politician's words as truthful?
Taiwanese embassy in Korea knew what was going on. I don't know what Chinese
or Taiwanese newspapers said but Korean newspaper saw this. 
Yeah, Korean govt must have done in not-very-decent way..if you insist
this relations "friends", who would want to cut these friendships in a bold
way?  On "not-forgetting-old-friend" things, did you guys let them (Korean
govt) do that?

>respect.  Feel sorry for Korean people.
>
If you feel that way...
Anyway I really feel sorry (for Taiwanese) , too.

**** Chinese embassy in Korea belongs to which country? I'm not sure.

>Ken-Huang Lin
>khlin@uiwpls.ece.uiuc.edu


-- 
 Sung Hyun Kim                                                         
         kim_sh@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu  // kim_sh@jhuvms.hcf.jhu.edu 
Dept. of Economics, Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore, MD 21218               
..... graduate of Korea Institute of Technology.........
From: chchang@acsu.buffalo.edu (Chun-Shi Chang)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
Subject: Re: Language
Date: 30 Aug 92 03:47:34 GMT
Organization: State University of New York at Buffalo/Comp Sci

chou@cs.washington.edu (Pai Hsiang Chou) writes:
>
>Prior to sinitization, H"ol"o was not a Han language.
>In fact, it was not even in the Sino-Tibetan family.
>H"ol"o is _syntactically_toned_ (still is today),
>while Sino-Tibetan famly is _lexically_toned_.

Could you please tell us what is a "Han language"? 
And which family is H"oL"o in?

>H"ol"o fossilized Han Chinese sounds from two eras.
>The first influx of Han influence came in the Jin
>dynasty, through intermarriage.  It acquired many
>Han colloquial words.  The second wave came during
>the Song dynasty, through official contact but no
>intermarriage. 

Very interesting. Do you have any proof about this?
From: slzw0@cc.usu.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
Subject: Re: a joke, just a joke
Date: 30 Aug 92 23:01:15 MDT
Organization: Utah State University


>>If you are a Korean, please replace Hyundai with Feeling 101.
>>One of my American friends told me this joke:
>>One day a police arrested a driver and accused him of intending
>>to murder because of overspeeding to 160 mph. The murderous tool
>>is a Hyundai Excel.

   Later, the policeman found that his speed gun was made in Taiwan.

>>In adjudgement, a Hyundai technician was called to test the car.
>>At last the driver was announced innocent, because that technician
>>said, "It's impossible for a Hyundai to run that fast."
>>I'm certain that this joke came from Rodney King trial.
>>In my best recollection, the guy from Hyundai Motor America said
>>maximum reading of that model speedometer is 120 mph.

  Especially, Hyundai mechanics designed the car for safty.  They
  considered that it is smart idear not to exceed over 120mph.
  so, no matter you are drunken or crazy, Hyundai Exel will limit
  your speed to save your life.

  On the other hand, if you see American cars, most of those have
  only 85mph scale speedometer.  The reason is,  American mechanics
  considered that those who drive over 85mph are crazy enough to die.
  Therefore, if you get crazy, your American car will get crazy too.
  But Hyundai Excel doesn't.

  Yes !  Hyndai !!

>>Just a joke, don't take it serious.

  Korea has already three major car-making company and another one has
  just started.  For taiwan, it was turned out to be impossible to build
  a car  they had to ride motercycle.  That is why there are many
  motorcycles in Taiwan.

  Additionally, do you know few other American cars are made in Korea ?
  You can find few 100% Korean made car in GM and Ford.  Even Korean made
  engins are easier to find in America.


> Hyundai Excel, nothing compare with most of american cars.

  The American car that you want to compare with Hyundai, could be made in
  Korea also. Check it out before you compare.    And more, I don't think
  it is smart idea to listen to the little toy makers (Taiwanese) about cars.

C.S. Park





From: john@jho.com (John Ho)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
Subject: F16 to Taiwan
Summary: F16 to Taiwan
Keywords: F16
Date: 2 Sep 92 21:53:10 GMT
Organization: Software Programming, Inc., Dallas, Texas USA


It is now official.  President Bush was in my backyard Ft. Worth this
afternoon to announce he authorized to sell Taiwan 150 F-16 which
worth more than $4 billion dollars and it saved 3000 jobs in
Texas.  Bad thing for Bush is that all the General Dynamics workers
realize that this is a pure political move and the sale probably won't
help him much in the poll.  
-- 
John Ho from Dallas, Texas USA. (john@jho.com)           - No news is bad news.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan,soc.culture.korean
From: b0k2481@zeus.tamu.edu (KIM, BYUNGSEON)
Subject: Re: Generalizing again?? (was Re: All you d*ckhead friend-betraying Koreans!!!)
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: Texas A&M University, Academic Computing Services
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1992 11:26:00 GMT

You guys posting for Korea!  
You are very cool, no, cold as ice.  Even though there is nothing 
to blame Korea superficially, you guys have to think about ethics 
at least.  Be a bit prudent.

Guys posting against Korea!
You guys are really dumb idiots.  What will you gain by hurting them
with such stupid things?  Korea is just one of many countries who did
the same thing to Taiwan before.  Just think about the future.
If you guys know about oriental checker game, keep in mind this 
-- Don't hold your dead son's testicles, let him go.

B. Sean Kim........................
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
From: 129.83.161.10 (H. Chao)
Subject: Re: Question about TI
Organization: MITRE
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 13:30:04 GMT

In article <3SEP199218385488@vtcc1.cc.vt.edu>, laiichung@vtcc1.cc.vt.edu
(L. D. ROPER) writes:
> 
> In article <22146@galaxy.ucr.edu>, lulu@ucrengr.ucr.edu (david lu) writes...
> >In article <1992Sep2.012328.7757@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> pchang@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Pei-Yuan Chang) writes:
> >>
> >> Hi, I am not asking for arguments
> >> OK, let me get this straight: I wrote a long paper this qaurter about TW
> >>arousing discussions on TI in the class.  I'm just curious about the following
> >>statement in the whole TI idea: why "mainlanders" should be kicked out of the
> >>island after TI?
> 
>  = Well , I am a TI supportor and I know quite a lot people support TI , but
>    based on what I know : none of them claimed that TI will kick out of 
>    mainlanders . If you really heard of such kind of saying , please tell me 
>    where did you hear that . I keep hearing people talking about that TI will
>    get rid of mainlanders but none of my TI friends said that and I don't see
>    any TI organization announced that . But I just keep receiving those message
>    from KMT's publications , especially during election days .
>    TI won't kick out mainlanders because they thought they are also Taiwanese .
>    People in Taiwan are in the same boat , share the same fate . TI is the way
>    for the better future of Taiwan . That's what I know why those people ( me
>    also ) support TI .
> 
Well, I WAS a TI supportor.  Maybe I was too young.  I used to support
Dang3(party)Wai4(outer) and donate my money to them back to the 70's.  When
I came to U.S. I still jointed TI meetings. Ironically , I found a rule
"CCP= KMT= TI".  
It is strange they fight each other, but they are so similar.  They are so
narrow minded, they are so power hunger, and they are so blood thirsty. 
Somebody tell me it is Chinese nature, and they are Chinese so they share
the same character.  Somebody say it is human nature.  People got to "eat"
people that is the way to eliminate the "weaker" and keep the society
stronger.  Somebody say it is animal nature.  See even monkeys in the zoo
will fight for power.

To those minorities (mainders, Hakkas, and Native Taiwanese) in Taiwan, my
suggestion is that vote for your own independence from TIers and build your
own country/countries.  Do NOT expect TIers will treat you fair.  That is
my experence, a costly experence.  Good Luck.

Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
From: bbs@medsys.rn.com (Public BBS System)
Subject: Re: (none)
Reply-To: bbs@medsys.UUCP (Public BBS System)
Organization: Med-Systems, Kingsport, Tennessee
Date: 30 Aug 1992 14:04:05 GMT

In article <1992Aug20.060732.7707@ultb.isc.rit.edu> txc6266@ultb.isc.rit.edu (T.X. Cheng ) writes:
>
> The Romanization used in Mainland was invented by Chinese
>Communists.  

This is not correct. The Pin Yin used in mainland China is a modification
of the Wade Giles system of transliteration. It was not invented by CCP.

Chou1
From: hpw10@QUTS.ccc.amdahl.com
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
Subject: Look ! Smart Taiwanese
Date: 1 Sep 92 21:08:12 GMT
Reply-To: hpw10@QUTS.ccc.amdahl.com ()
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA


To whoever sent Mr Lu the messages,

I do not know who you are; but I can tell you that besides your bad
spelling,  your grammar is equally stink.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
From: elelyc@nuscc.nus.sg (Y.C. Liang)
Subject: News 4/9/92
Organization: National University of Singapore
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 03:30:21 GMT


CHINA SLAMS US DECISION TO SELL F-16s TO TAIWAN

BEIJING -- China yesterday denounced Washington's decision to sell
fighter jets to Taiwan and threatened to withdraw from international
arms control talks if the sale goes through.

Vice-Foreign Minister Liu Huaqiu summoned US Ambassador Stapleton Roy to
lodge the "strongest protest" over President George Bush's decision to
sell up to 150 F-16s(A/B) to Taiwan, the official Xinhua news agency
said.

Mr. Liu accused Washington of working to obstruct the eventual
unification of Taiwan with mainland China and violating its 1982 promise
to phase out arms sales to the Nationalist-ruled island.

Washington dismisses objections, says move will boost regional
stability.  President Bush said the proposed sale did not represent a
change in US policy towards China and was to help miantain "peace and
stability" in the region.

The sale, if goes through, will save 3000 jobs in General Dynamics Co.

In Taipei, Mr. Bush's decision was hailed yesterday as "a significant
political break-through" by Defence Minister Chen Li-an.

-ooOoo-

CAPTAIN OF TERFU 51 MAY BE CHARGED

TAIPEI -- Taiwanese police yesterday recommended manslaughter charges
against the captain and two crewmen of the trawler Terfu 51, which hit
the cruise liner Royal Pacific off Malaysia last month.

If convicted, they could face up to 10 years in prison.  They were
allowed to post bail ranging from NT$100,000 to NT$1 million, said the
prosecutor Wu Hsun-lung.

The liner sank and the damaged trawler was seen fleeing north, ignoring
radioed requests from Malaysian authorities to stay at the scene of the
accident.

The captain said he signalled to turn right when the liner came near the
trawler, but the liner immediately turned left.  He then sounded his
horn twice and truned right, but the liner turned left too.  In the end,
his ship hit the left side of the liner.

He said he also reported the accident to the Malaysian marine police,
who did not stop them from leaving.

Representatives of the Greek-owned liner are asking for US$100 million
compensation from the trawler's owner.

-ooOoo-

TOILET PLANS DOWN THE DRAIN

BEIJING -- Dreams for a super-modern solution to the smelly public
toilets here looks like they will remain just that.

A Taiwan  businessman had hoped to sponsor Beijing's first joint-venture
toilet -- beautifully-appointed and self-cleaning -- but the plans
foundered when officials realised that most ordinary people could never
afford to use it, the Beijing Daily reported.

To make the venture work financially, people would have to pay between 5
and 10 yuan for each visit -- about what ordinary worker can earn in a
day.

-ooOoo-

WEATHER

Taipei -- 25/33 C -- Rain
HongKong -- 28/33 C -- Clear
Beijing -- 20/31 -- Clear
From: An-Ly Yao <anlyyao@igc.apc.org>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
Date: 25 Aug 92 16:01 PDT
Subject: No Visas for Taiwanese to Korea?
Nf-ID: #N:cdp:1474900016:000:303
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!anlyyao    Aug 25 16:01:00 1992


Yesterday it was reported in the news here, that Korea would offer non-visa
entry for visitors from Taiwan, If they stick to this, that would be a nice
guesture towards Taiwan. They even said, they would do it independently from
the outcome of talks with Taiwan on visa matters.

Goetz
Seoul 1992/08/26

Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
From: Jesse
Subject: a joke, just another joke
Originator: cyen@ponder.csci.unt.edu
Organization: Computer Science Dept .of UNT
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 03:23:32 GMT


No matter who you are, please don't be serious.

   Couple days ago I bought an universal remote control, which is made
   in Korea. It looks fancy and beautiful.  I use it to control all my
   audio and video equipments, which are made in Japan. 
   In the kit, there is an user manual including device codes and operation
   description. Following the steps, I set up remote and began to test it.
   BUT I found some functions don't work as stated in user manual.
   Later on, I complained to the salesman and refunded the remote.
   To my surprise, the salesman told me,"Don't believe what they have said."

It's just another joke.

Jesse
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
From: li@sicvax.enet.dec.com (Tong-Kang Li)
Subject: Re: The Foreign Minister of PRC said ...
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 03:05:24 GMT


In article <l9o1r5INNo5n@pollux.usc.edu>, mcyang@pollux.usc.edu (Bien-Chao Iunn) writes...
>In article <HJj-pz#@engin.umich.edu> chen@caen.engin.umich.edu (Jian Chen) writes:
>KMT is also
>at fault due to the the territorial claim over China which puts Taiwan at a 
>very embarrassed position in terms of getting international recognition.

In my opinion, no matter KMT claim or disclaim, most of countries will not
recognize Taiwan as "Republic of anything" at present or near future unless
you pay enough $$.

>This kind of aggressive attempt only show us how China is going to treat
>Taiwanese once they succeed in annexing Taiwan.
> 
>No, it is not going to happen.  We Taiwanese are going to have our own
>country.  Long live Republic of Taiwan !

I wonder what would happen if Taiwan declares "Taiwan is not part of China"
and adopts name of "Republic of Taiwan". My guessing is Mainland China will
blockade the island enough to cause social and economic chaos, e.g., collapse 
of stock market and money fled out of country, etc. To restore the regional 
peace, US, Japan, South Korea, etc will put great pressure on Taiwan to 
force her to withdraw the declaration. After months, Taiwan may have to back 
to previous state and take a very very long time to recover the economy and 
dignity.

Any comments.

Tom
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
From: claudius@leland.Stanford.EDU (Nelson Lu)
Subject: Re: Language
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 92 16:14:56 GMT

In article <BtynsD.40p@multisys.com> rot@multisys.com (Republic of Taiwan) writes:

>PS. The only river Han called 'river' is  'Yellow  river'.   Next
>biggest  river they called it 'Gorn' (HaGa or HoLo pronunciation,
>let those Mandarian speaking barbarians learn the beauty  of  the
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>real  Han)  Then  they call the next one as 'Ssui' or 'Zui'(zoo -
>e), which is water in Hanzi.
>Sorry, one way to increase the self-confidence of our mother tone is
>degrade the oppressor.

More like a racist statement.

And you say that you don't reject the WSR...
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan,soc.culture.korean
From: phantom@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (James Choi)
Subject: Principle
Organization: Northwestern University, Evanston Illinois.
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 19:05:38 GMT

In article <1992Aug28.105841.3665@vax.muskingum.edu> ericlaw@vax.muskingum.edu (Eric Law, Geology Department) writes:
>	** James Choi, are you a Korean? Your last name sounds
>	   like Chinese. 

I also noticed some Chinese had last names sounding like mine.  I am a
Korean in some aspects.  I do not have Korean nationality now, and I also
grew up in another part of the world.

>	** Should some principles which hold a nation be the same
>	   as those hold a person? 

I do not think I can answer this question without thinking for a few days.
My immediate reaction would be, "yes, theoretically."  But consider these
two factors.  First of all, Korean government never was the voice of the
people.  Second, this situation is very unique.  As an individual, I
constantly make new friends as I grow older.  None of them forced me to
denounce anyone as a result of making a new (maybe important) friend.

Any properly functioning nation will try to expand its horizon.  But when
this ridiculous situation comes up, one has to weigh cost benefit.  The
cost is not betrayal here.  The cost is living in accordance to some absurd
rule that was set by the "victim"-to-be (or by China, I am ignorant in
detail).  I do not know that detail of this agreement but I am sure Taiwan
agreed to this fully expecting to pay for this type of price.

I think South Korea has recognized North.  Consider the fact that they
actually shot each other, and they are still in cease fire.  Korean War
never ended to this day!  In light of that, what is so hard for Taiwan to
recognize China and have the rest of the world recognize them?

>	   A nation is a assembly of people. How can a nation be 
>	   successfully run under some "opposite" principles to
>	   those applied to person. One of the principle you suggested
>	   for a nation to follow is "Jian4 Li4 Wan4 i4" (see benefit, 
>	   forget moral obligation)

This is a very profound question.  Does the national policy reflect its
people's opinion?  Does a corporate policy reflect collective mentality of
its employee?  Somehow I see a big gap here.  But I cannot pinpoint.  I
leave this question to someone wiser, of any nationality.

I see your point.  And I agree with you on personal level.  I also respect
those who are loyal to friends.  But I think what is to blame here is the
treaty that states "either me or them", not the person that acted
accordingly.

James Choi
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan