HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: titmas@chdasic.sps.mot.com (Eric Titmas)
Subject: Re: Say it ain't so
Organization: SPS
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 23:04:09 GMT

In article <Bx8znG.EDr@world.std.com>, srm@world.std.com (Stevens R Miller) writes:
|> arf@ddsw1.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling) writes:
|> > srm@world.std.com (Stevens R Miller) writes:
|> >> arf@ddsw1.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling) writes:
|> 
|> >>> Welcome to the world of reverse racism.                  
|> 
|> >> Do you know the facts?  How do you know that
|> >> a mixed jury was racist in its verdict?
|> 
|> >> Welcome to the world of reasonable doubt.
|> 
|> > Pray tell, how many Chassidic Jews were on this "mixed jury"?
|> 
|> Don't know, don't care, it doesn't matter.  Facts matter.
|> 
|> The assumption that "Jewish victim plus no Jews in the jury equals
|> racist verdict" is naive and borders on bigotry.

Stevens,  you're the one who brought up the mixed jury idea.
-- 
Eric Titmas      Motorola ASIC       titmas@chdasic.sps.mot.com               

It is impossible to take in more money than Congress can spend.  - Thomas Sowell
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: robertc@sco.COM (Robert Chansky)
Subject: Re: 1st Re: jesus of Nazareth
Organization: The Santa Cruz Operation, Inc.
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 02:58:27 GMT


In article <2784@israel.nysernet.org> warren@nysernet.org writes:
>In <4436@bimacs.BITNET> ehrlich@bimacs.BITNET (Gideon Ehrlich) writes:
>
>>If Joel Goldberg's aim is to use this Jewish net for a christian
>>misionnary activity then he is definitely doing an immoral action.
>
>If Gideon Ehrlich's aim is to use the net to imply that Joel Goldberg
>engages in Christian missionary activity then he is definitely doing
>an immoral action.

If Gideon Ehrlich believes that his simple if-then logic can actually
prove metaphysical questions that have stymied the most brilliant of
minds for thousands of years, I have a great bridge to sell him. :)

-- 
                                 . 
                     (.signature at 50 meters)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: jlove@ivrit.ra.itd.umich.edu (Jack Love)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Kippah
Date: 12 Nov 1992 00:24:34 GMT
Organization: /usr/local/trn/lib/organization
NNTP-Posting-Host: ivrit.ra.itd.umich.edu

In article <97105@netnews.upenn.edu> weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener) writes:
>In article <1992Nov11.091744.11741@discus.technion.ac.il>, ben@vmsa writes:
>>>Considering that kippahs were taken from slave fashion, I don't think so.
>
>>this is intewresting. from where do you find that a kippa is "slave fashion"??
>
>I can't name a specific source, but I've always heard that the kippa was
>originally a Roman head covering meant for male slaves.  The Jews adopted
>it to indicate that they too had a Master.


I would appreciate a source for this remark. I have studied the question
of kippah and found the sources to be remarkably silent. The best
suggestions of which I am aware point to covering the head as a
Babylonian custom. A few sources suggest that that Palestinian Jews
prayed with the head uncovered. Since current custom is derived from
the Babylonian tradition, most Jews today pray with head covered. 
However, I certainly don't claim to have made an exhaustive study,
so I would appreciate learning the source of your data.

Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: ask@cbnews.cb.att.com (Arthur S. Kamlet)
Subject: Re: Death of Aunts and Uncles
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories,  Columbus, Ohio
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 22:27:24 GMT

In article <1992Nov10.162853.9186@pts1.pts.mot.com> schw_mi@pts.mot.com writes:
>Yesterday I lost my father's sister to hepatitis.  I say my father's
>sister and not my aunt because since 1962, I have seen her a total
>of 10 times, the last being at my sister's wedding in 1987.  She
>refused to come to my wedding two years earlier, ...
>..
>My father, his sister, and brother escaped from Germany in 1941 with
>the help of his mother(who then went back to the camps).  When the
>German government started offering restitution, my aunt refused to
>signed the papers for a long period of time,

I am sorry to hear of anyone's death, and offer my condolences to
you and your family and your aunt's family.  I think the world is
always diminished a bit when someone dies.

She was in the Nazi camps and survived, and who knows what effect
that had on her?  Can anyone honestly say if we had been in her
place that we would have emerged and lived a friendly, cheerful,
happy life, and that we would have been a person our children and
nieces and nephews and friends would enjoy being with?

Even if her reasons for not associating with your family were due to
bad motives, in Jewish belief a person may always do teshuva --
repent -- from those ways at anytime up until the moment of death.
Moreover, lacking definite knowledge to the contrary, we should
assume that, indeed, if she needed to do teshuva that she did so!

>Due to monetary problems, I can't attend the funeral Wednesday.
>Question is what is my obiligations under jewish law in this matter???

If you can't attend, you can't attend.

If your father is still alive you should offer him your condolences
in a way that you are both comfortable with.  If he sits shiva where
you can attend, it's a good idea to attend at least some of the
time.

The obligation to sit shiva and mourn for a relative is for parents,
children, brothers and sisters and the surviving spouse.

I would suggest that you assume if your aunt had done wrong things
during her lifetime, that she did regret them and did teshuva
sometime before her death, and that you forgive her now.

It certainly can't hurt, right?  And it might help you expunge some
bad stuff you might be holding onto.
-- 
Art Kamlet  a_s_kamlet@att.com  AT&T Bell Laboratories, Columbus
Organization: Queen's University at Kingston
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1992 14:53:12 EDT
From: andy <2893684@QUCDN.QueensU.CA>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Israel and the diaspora
 <1992Nov2.143745.6279@cbnewsl.cb.att.com>
 <92308.0209172893684@QUCDN.QueensU.CA> <4428@bimacs.BITNET>
 <92312.0400382893684@QUCDN.QueensU.CA> <dfs.721183164@vash>

In article <dfs.721183164@vash>, dfs@doe.carleton.ca (David F. Skoll) says:
>
>In <92312.0400382893684@QUCDN.QueensU.CA> andy
><2893684@QUCDN.QueensU.CA> writes:
>
>>Ah yes, the famous "wish you were here" argument. Unfortunately, Israel's
>>actions often effect us in the diaspora.
>
>Oh, please!  We here in Canada are sitting comfortably.  Israel's effects
>on us are nothing compared to those who actually live there.  Using the
>argument that "it looks bad to the Gentiles" is a bit of a ghetto
>mentality.
>
>>For example until a few years ago
>>about 90% of Russian Jewish emigres emigrated to nations other than Israel.
>>Israel, feeling that the inherent right of these people to travel should only
>>be extended as far as Israel tried to make it impossible for them to go
>>elsewhere by arranging direct flights to Jerusalem and getting the U.S. to
>>impose quotas on the number of Russian Jews entering the country.
>
>Hardly.  I think you'll find that the vast majority of the lobbyists
>were Americans, not Israelis, who were working under a (misguided) sense
>of Zionism.

Then why did Natan Sharansky criticise Israel and North american Jews for
doing just what I claim, this was covered in CJN about two or three years
ago. That's right, my source is the Canadian Jewish News

>
>[...]
>
>>Also, Israel's human rights atrocities does nothing to help fight
>>anti-Semitism in the diaspora.
>
>"Atrocities?"  Well, I don't think I'd go that far - "violations",

Semantics. OK, substitute violations for atrocities, the argument is the same

>maybe.  And I doubt that Israel's actions have much impact on the
>level of anti-Semitism in the diaspora.  You should be concerned about
>human rights violations for their own sake, not because of "shame
>in front of the Gentiles."

I am, but I'm also aware that their is an effect on the way Jews are seen

>
>>If Israel should ever tilt to the far
>>right represented by Sharon or Kach, I believe Diaspora Jews would be
>>the target of anti-Semitism not seen for decades.
>
>I wouldn't worry much about the diaspora.  But I would worry about
>Israel if that ever happened.

I'd worry for both. Let's hope Rabin and Labour succeed.

>
>--
>                     |         | "Step up and shake the hand
>David F. Skoll       | ||||||| |  Of someone you can't stand,
>|_ _ _  __   __ _ __ |  \\V//  |  You can tolerate him if you try..."
> / |  | |_|   | |  | |  __|__  |  -- Tom Lehrer, "National Brotherhood Week"
>_____|________________________________________________________________________
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (samuel.saal)
Subject: Re: Living in Israel - Voting in USA
Organization: AT&T
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 13:08:06 GMT

In article <1992Nov8.143222.19968@midway.uchicago.edu>
clmn@midway.uchicago.edu writes:

>Reason one I find very harmful.  Citizens of a foreign state, all Jews,
>voting in US elections so as to advance the interests of their new home.
>This does incalcuable harm to American Jews and opens them to charges of
>divided loyalty, and with some justification.

Don't worry about "them" hating "us."  Those that would, would regardless
of this issue.
-- 
Sam Saal      kingfish!saal OR saal@kingfish.att.com
	Vayiftach HaShem et Peah Ha`Aton
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: MASH@WEIZMANN.WEIZMANN.AC.IL (Michael Shimshoni)
Subject: Racism of Meir Kahane (was Autopsy of Kahane & Rosenbaum)
Organization: Mail to News Gateway at Wang Labs
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 15:30:45 GMT

In: <1992Nov6.193242.4385@ennews.eas.asu.edu>
makowsky@enuxha.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky) claims:

>In article <2757@israel.nysernet.org> warren@nysernet.org writes:
>
># dm = makowsky@enuxha.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky)
>
># me: I don't know about David Skoll, but I have read the deceased racist's
>                                                                   ^^^^^^^^
># me: books and articles and heard him speak.
>
># dm: We are discussing Rabbi Meir Kahane.  Not whoever it was you heard
># dm: speak.
>
># Yes, we are discussing the late racist rabbi.
>
>	By "we" I meant the discussion I was taking part in involving the
>non Racist Rabbi Meir Kahane (HY"D).  Please stay out of this
>discussion if you want to discuss another Rabbi who might have
>happened to be a racist.

That is very  cute, but anyone who  reads scj belongs to  "we" and can
take part  in any discussion  on scj.  How  David thinks that  one can
find anything non racist in Meir  Kahane is amazing.  I have read some
of his writings, and I have heard him speak a few times in public, and
read what he said also in the  Knesset.  He was a racist and the world
is a better  place without him.  I have never  advocated political (or
other)  murder,  and thus  also  never  suggested  that he  should  be
murdered; but as the saying  goes, tzadiqim gemurim, melakhtam na'aset
al yedei aherim...

Although  I am  not  adherent to  the Orthodox  branch  of the  Jewish
religion,  it is  well known  that even  among the  Orthodox religious
leadership  his views  were generally  opposed.  Even  the Lubavitcher
Rebbe, whose views on Israeli politics are rather on the nationalistic
side, did not ask his supporters to vote for Kahane.  The only time he
spoke out publicly for whom to  vote was for Agudda, never for Kahane,
thus all the claims that his  views "follow" from Orthodox Judaism are
ludicrous and libelous.

Michael Shimshoni
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: makowsky@enuxha.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky)
Subject: Re: Autopsy - Kahane and Rosenbaum
Reply-To: makowsky@enuxha.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky)
Organization: Arizona State University, Tempe AZ
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1992 23:40:43 GMT

In article <92312.0345472893684@QUCDN.QueensU.CA> andy <2893684@QUCDN.QueensU.CA> writes:

# In article <1N4PTB2w165w@valpso.hanse.de>, tichauer@valpso.hanse.de (Manfredo
# Tichauer) says:

# >makowsky@enuxha.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky) writes:

# >> # Would you support an American Kahane who proposed expelling all
# >non-Christ-
# >> # ians from the USA?

# >> Well, I will quote the late Rabbi from memory here just after he
# >> was elected to the Knesset.  The Rabbi said something like "He would
# >> pay them money to expell all Jews to Israel" when asked a similar
# >> question.
 
# Would he have paid Hitler money to expel the Jews from Europe? My father
# recalls reading in a Betar newspaper in the mid 30s that the Nazis were right
# in arguing the Jews have no place in Germany and encouraging the Nazis
# to expel the Jews. It's this sort of smug, Machiavellian, ends-justifies-the
# means thinking often comes from the far right that gives me the chills.

	Did you read the context?  Could it have been they had no place
because of what was going to happen to them?  Jabotinsky for one
PREDICTED it, although no one paid attention (or worse they tried to
silence him, much as they tried to silence Rabbi Meir Kahane [HY"D]
more recently) to him.

	I'll bet you would have chosen expulsion as compared to what
happened.
--
"For all I care, you can send your money to the Hitler memorial fund, too, if
that pleases you."

From  arens@vaxa.isi.edu (Yigal Arens) in article <9323@venera.isi.edu>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: boaz@concerto.lcs.mit.edu (Boaz Ben-Zvi)
Subject: Re: Hebrew origin of some English words
Reply-To: boaz@lcs.mit.edu
Organization: Laboratory for Computer Science, MIT
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 20:12:46 GMT

In article <1992Nov01.235857.6192@eng.umd.edu>, cema@eng.umd.edu (Simon Hawkin) writes:

|> Does anybody know the origin of the English word "Hello" ?
|> It sounds so much like "Shalom"... :-)

Wasn't A.G. Bell the first to use "Hello" in the early days of the
phone invention ?
  Anyhow to my ears it is "so long" that sound much more like "Shalom"

-- Boaz

===============================================================================
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/__)(_)(_|__/  /__)(_'_/ /   /__\/_(        __|_ __\    | __|_     \  __\| __|_
          __)                                           |                      
===============================================================================
 Boaz Ben-Zvi <boaz@crl.dec.com>           Home: (617) 494-1279  <boaz@mit.edu>
===============================================================================
From: aplebaum@irs01.cs.huji.ac.il (Hillel Applebaum)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Conversion Question
Date: 8 Nov 92 14:23:58 GMT
Organization: The Hebrew U. of Jerusalem, Computer Science Dep.
NNTP-Posting-Host: irs01.cs.huji.ac.il

In article <1992Nov6.003524.9730@netcom.com>, solovay@netcom.com (Andrew Solovay) writes:
|> As I recall, the question was, under what circumstances might
|> Orthodox Jews view a conversion as invalid. One such circumstance
|> would be an invalid bet din. There's pretty much only one
|> siutuation in which a bet din is convened which an Orthodox Jew
|> would consider invalid, and that's when the members of the bet
|> din belong to a non-Orthodox movement. Given that, it was
|> entirely appropriate to give a Conservative bet din as an example.

As I recall, the question was, under what circumstances might
Orthodox Jews view an ORTHODOX conversion as invalid. Therefor
brining an non-O BAIT-DIN is irralevent. 
I also agree with Mr. Kamlet that declaring that ALL C conversion
are invalid - is wrong. I heared that the GRI"D Solovatzik SLIT"A
said once that it's possiable to take some C-rabbies (?) into a
BAIT-DIN for conversions, but since it'll have to be the O-RABBNIM
that will dicide who will be KOSHER and who won't - this idea won't
work (it didn't)

-- 

-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*--*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
/ Hillel P. Applebaum  |> ISRAEL - where all
/ Jerusalem,   Israel  |  jews should live !
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*--*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: sethr@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (seth.r.rosenthal)
Subject: Re: Conversion Question
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 15:19:32 GMT

In article <1992Nov10.222459.5565@elroy.jpl.nasa.gov>, seth@inst-sun1.tmc.edu (Seth Chazanoff) writes:
> n article <09Nov92.194522.1926@granite.ciw.edu> cohen@quartz.ciw.edu (Ronald Cohen) writes:
> > ... If I had my druthers, there would be no reform Judaism, since they have
> > thrown out the Halacha altogether ....
> 
>   Just as every other movement has been accused of every time that it differs from
> the current "Mainstream".  I point out that "Orthodox" halacha no longer requires
> sacrifices, even though they still are listed as mitzvot by RAMBAM.  How many 
> "Jews for Jesus" have you stoned for trying to corrupt your town?  The answer 
> had better be all of them, otherwise you have thrown out "The Halacha".  
> 

Civil laws supercede here.

>   I don't have the reference handy, but I remember a story about an arguement
> during which one rabbi calls upon the walls of a building, a tree, and finally
> HaShem to show that he is correct, the other rabbi tells the building to stand
> up straight, the tree to move back to its place, and tells HaShem to butt out
> of the arguement, that once the words were given to humans, they remain with
> humans to interpret.  A Bat Kol was heard to say "My children have defeated 
> me."  What you are saying, is that once there is an interpretation, by a
> rabbi you approve of, there can not be any further interpretation of the
> matter, EVER!  I reject this.  While you might not approve of the Reform 
> movement, or indeed the Conservative movement, neither one is attempting to
> invalidate Orthodoxy.  The Reform phylosophy is that one should LEARN what
> the religion is about, then MAKE INFORMED DECISIONS about its practice.  
> While the Reform movement does not REQUIRE that Halacha be observed, it 
> equally does not REQUIRE that it be discarded.
> 
> 						Seth
> 
> P.S.  Do you wear pants?  Trousers were considered womens clothes in Talmudic
> times.  They were not considered to be fitting for Jewish men till somewhere
> around the 10th or 12th century C.E.  See what the RAMBAM says about men
> wearing womens clothes<GRIN>

Seth C. points out something that is at the core of the Reform
and Conservative philosophies.  Times change, and old interpretations
need to be updated to reflect the times the people live in.

Nice post Seth.

		Seth Rosenthal

Disclaimer: All opinions are mine, not my employers'.

Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: gertler@cyclone.sbi.com (Don Gertler)
Subject: Re: Say it ain't so
Originator: scj@israel.nysernet.org
Reply-To: <gertler@cyclone.sbi.com (Don Gertler)>
Organization: Nysernet
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 16:33:53 GMT

srm@world.std.com (Stevens R Miller) writes:
> arf@ddsw1.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling) writes:

> > Pray tell, how many Chassidic Jews were on this "mixed jury"?
> 
> Don't know, don't care, it doesn't matter.  Facts matter.
> 
> The assumption that "Jewish victim plus no Jews in the jury equals
> racist verdict" is naive and borders on bigotry.

And the assumption that failure to convict is equivalent to innocence
is similarly naive, though perhaps legally necessary.  The only fact
here is that Nelson was acquitted.  It is an assumption that the jury
members were reasonable and that they acted reasonably on the available
evidence.  Innocence is the presumed default, not the confirmed fact.

-Don Gertler
From: weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: sexism
Date: 9 Nov 92 14:19:19 GMT
Reply-To: weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener)
Organization: The Wistar Institute of Anatomy and Biology
In-reply-to: warren@nysernet.org (Warren Burstein)

In article <2776@israel.nysernet.org>, warren@nysernet (Warren Burstein) writes:
>>Men should wear ... two layers of underwear under their shirt

>Could you provide sources?  Do you perhaps mean the talit katan as one
>of these layers?

Exactly.  The shirt under the t.k. is to keep it clean.

Of course, some guys wear their t.k. on the outside.
-- 
-Matthew P Wiener (weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu)
From: warren@nysernet.org (Warren Burstein)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Autopsy - Kahane and Rosenbaum
Date: 8 Nov 92 12:03:20 GMT
Reply-To: warren@nysernet.org
Organization: Mail to News Gateway at Wang Labs

In <1992Nov6.193242.4385@ennews.eas.asu.edu> makowsky@enuxha.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky) writes:

>	By "we" I meant the discussion I was taking part in involving the
>non Racist Rabbi Meir Kahane (HY"D).  Please stay out of this
>discussion if you want to discuss another Rabbi who might have
>happened to be a racist.

I am referring to the same person (no abbreviation) as you are.  The
fact that he happened to have been granted smicha has nothing to do
with his racist views as he had many racist followers who were not
rabbis.  Please stay out of this discussion unless you can explain how
proposing to offer Israeli Arabs a choice between disinfranchisement
and expulsion is not racist.  Please note that explaining why such a
course of action might be expidient does not imply that it is not also
racist.
-- 
/|/-\/-\          Adif tzav pinui metzav shmoneh.
 |__/__/_/    
 |warren@     
/ nysernet.org 			    Jerusalem
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: js@cs.tulane.edu (Jan Silbermann)
Subject: Re: Conversion Question
Nntp-Posting-Host-[nntpd-28966]: caesar
Organization: Computer Science Dept., Tulane Univ., New Orleans, LA
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 21:22:11 GMT

>>I don't recall Orthodoxy being mentioned in the original post.  But I do
>>have the impression that unconversion is a rare, but mostly an Orthodox
>>phenomenon, so it seems to be a reasonable assumption when such a question
>>is raised.

I aised the original question. The conversion was Orthodox. I really
can't believe that I neglected to mention that. I didn't mean to start a
flame war!

>
>>Hardly so.  There are Orthodox rabbis that have trouble with other
>>Orthodox rabbi's conversions, who apparently are in it for the money
>>or other embarrassments.

    I needed to know that if a convert and rabbi have differences after
the conversion and wants to undo the conversion can he do so? Does
the convert have any recourse. Can a rabbi just say "I made a
mistake with this person" and undo it?
>
>>I agree.  Whoever was seeking general information about a potential
>>unconversion needs the information, not the politics.

   I was trying not to give too much information as I don't want to
 say anything about the actual people involved which could be
 damaging to either one.

 I am sorry for all the baggage flying back and forth, that is not
 what I intended to happen.
From: curry@aries.scs.uiuc.edu (Sheree R. Curry)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Help needed researching Ethiopian Jews
Summary: Looking for bibliography of articles on Ethiopian Jews
Keywords: Ethiopian, research, magazines, ethnic
Date: 12 Nov 92 09:57:28 GMT
Article-I.D.: aries.curry.721562248
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana


I am interested in compiling a personal bibliography on articles
published in journals or magazines since 1985 on the Ethiopian
Jews.

Do any of you know if there is a catalog with such a bibliography?
Or any school or person that may have collected such information?

Also, if anyone has noticed any recent articles on the
Ethiopian Jews, could you please tell me in what publication,
the month and issue you saw it, and the writer's name, if possible.

Finally, if there are any Ethiopian readers of this group,
could you please contact me?

Please respond in email.


Thanks in advance for your help.

Sheree Curry Goldstein
curry@aries.scs.uiuc.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish