HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman)
Subject: Re: persona help
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 16:40:17 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

Greetings from Arval!  I had written:

>E. G. Withycombe, "The Oxford Dictionary of English Christian Names", says
>that "Felicity" did not come into use as a name until the 17th century,
>when similar "abstract attribute names" became fashionable among the
>Puritans; the earliest citation she gives is "Phelisstie" in 1641. 

Hossein wrote:

> Withycombe is best used to prove a period provenance rather than to
> disprove one.  The Exchequer Rolls of Edward III show an amercement paid
> by one "Felicitye Bowyer" of Lincoln in 1342.  

Wonderful!  

Out of curiosity: Did you just happen to reading the exchequer rolls of
Edward III of an evening and happen across the name? :)  Seriously, do you
ahve access to an index of names from those rolls, or was it something you
just recalled?

It is of course virtually impossible to prove a negative assertion like
"Felicity was not used in period England;" we rely on the best research
available to us.  Withycombe's negative statements have been borne out by
further research more often than not, so we tend to trust them.  Given
additional information, as here, we are delighted to accept a name.  I'll
make a note in my copy of Withycombe, for future reference.

===========================================================================
Arval Benicoeur                                       mittle@watson.ibm.com
From: uni@acs.bu.edu (Shaen Bernhardt)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: robes/cloaks
Date: 25 Jan 93 00:31:08 GMT
Organization: Boston University, Boston, MA, USA



I'm looking for a source for full length ritual robes with those
long floppy sleeves and a long draping hood.  Black would be nice.

I asked on alt.pagan, and it was suggested that I look here.

A heavy matte fabric would be the best, but I'm not sure how picky I can
afford to be.

Thanks in advance.

uni
-- 
uni@acs.bu.edu  ->  Public Keys by finger and/or request
Soverignty is the sign of a brutal past.
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: greg@silver.lcs.mit.edu (Hossein Ali Qomi (mka Gregory F. Rose))
Subject: Re: Made in Atlantia
Organization: The Rialto
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 01:33:02 GMT

Master Robyyan wrote:

>All you Latin speakers out there, how would I say "Made in Atlantia"
>if I wanted to label something?  I know I could say "Robyyan me
>fecit", but that's "Made by Robyyan" (or 'robyyan made me') which
>isn't exactly what I want.

I think the question deserves a more public answer than in email
because it raises some fundamental questions about medieval Latin
usages in written ascriptions of manufacture or authorship of artifacts.

First, I would dispute that "Robyyan me fecit" is the preferred medieval
usage.  A medieval Latinist would more likely have used the irregular
verb _fio/fieri/factus sum_  (=to be made, to be done, to become) rather
than _facio/facere/feci/factus_ (=to make, to do).  Furthermore, the
anthropomorphizing of the object (i.e., the use of the accusative
pronoun _me_) is unusual.

Second, it would have been far more common for a form of the verb
_fio_ to have been used with the name of the manufacturer/author in
the ablative of means, e.g., "_Robyyano fit_," "[this] is made by
Robyyan."  Another common form would be the past participle of the
verb in an ablative absolute construction with the name of the
manufacturer/author in the ablative of means, e.g., "_Robyyano
facto_," literally "[this] having been made by Robyyan."

Medieval craftsmen were not elegant Latin stylists and you see quite a
wide variation in spelling and grammatical error.  For example, it is not
uncommon to see variants on _fit_ including _fiet, ficit, fici, fitur_, etc.,
and on _facto_ including _fac, fituro, fato_, etc.

The use of the ablative of means is also confusing because, with second
declension singlar and fourth declension singular neuter nouns, the
ablative and the dative forms are identical.  Thus, "_Robyyano fit_"
could equally well mean "[this] is made for Robyyan."  The ambiguity
was present in medieval Latin and craftsmen did not seem to be much
bothered by it.

Now for the real kicker.  "_In Atlantia fit_" is perfectly grammatical
medieval Latin.  Yet, it doesn't have a medieval flavor to it.  I have
examined thousands of medieval artifacts with manufacturer and
ownership marks on them and I have never seen a national reference.
Only occasionally do you see reference to a town.  Overwhelmingly it is
the name of the manufacturer or owner which is present in the
ablative with some form of _fio_.  "Made in Atlantia" has the ring of
"Made in the U.S.A." precisely because physical identification of
national origin of manufactured goods is a modern concept, not a
medieval one.

One further note: paleographically it is equally common to see the name
of the manufacturer or owner abbreviated rather than fully written
out, so "Robyyano fit" would be ".R. fit" (the "periods" would be roughly
halfway the height of the capital on each side and frequently a
circumflex, indicating abbreviation, would be written over the capital
letter).

I hope this is helpful.

Hossein/Greg
 


Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: tbarnes@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (thomas wrentmore barnes)
Subject: Re: You know you're in the SCA when....
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 23:53:14 GMT

In article <4fMjdbW00WAL01looZ@andrew.cmu.edu> Bob Troyer Hansen <bh1q+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
>Has anyone made a compilation of the you know you're in the SCA thread
>that swept through the Rialto a while back?  I think I missed a lot of
>them, and would like to have them on hand.
>

Dunno, but here's a new one...

You know you're in the SCA when after a spat with your Significant
Other, you vow "My NEXT girlfriend/boyfriend will be a
Celt/Viking/Fop/(fill in the blank).

Lothar \|/
        0.

                        
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: shick@europa.eng.gtefsd.com (steve hick)
Subject: Psuedo-illegal targets (was Re: Illegal targets (was period 
	fighting styles))
Reply-To: shick@europa.eng.gtefsd.com (steve hick)
Organization: GTE Contel Federal Systems
X-Newsreader: InterCon TCP/Connect II 1.1b31
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 15:35:33 GMT

In article <1993Jan21.173643.5216@colorado.edu>, klosky@dvorak.Colorado.EDU 
(Ledlie Klosky ) writes:

> 
> Not counting hand shots is probably the thing which makes our style of 
> fighting most different from period forms.  Most sword and shield 
> styles we use REQUIRE that you block with your hand, something which 
> almost certainly would not have been done.  It also really bugs me to 
> see people blocking mace, greatsword, polearm and spear (yes, I've seen 
> it, where the shieldman actually looks through the basket to block 
> incoming thrusts) shots with a basket hilt, as if it were some tiny, 
> in- destructable buckler. 
> 
What is worse is that there are many places where blows to the arm are 
considered unchivalrous, and individuals often use the entire ARM to defend 
the head.  This creates a form even more ludicrous, where people leave their 
arms foreward without consideration that in period, this would be the first 
place struck.

AND YES, there are many descriptions of period combats a pleasance where the 
hand is hit, and yes, the arms and hands are targets in the manuals 
previously discussed.

ST




Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: n9110536@henson.cc.wwu.edu (W. Douglas West)
Subject: Re: Medieval women
Organization: Western Washington University
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 17:52:15 GMT

In article <1993Jan22.163605.1562@news.ysu.edu> ae766@yfn.ysu.edu (David Sanders) writes:
>
>Greetings to all, from Vajk!
>
 
>I recently picked up the 1993 "Medievel Women" calendar,
>and the text for January reads, in part:
>
>   "Christine de Pisan (1365-c.1431), the best known and
>    most influential woman writer of her day, ..."
>
>There are several works about women writers of the Middle
>Ages with which I am acquainted, but I would like to take
>this project to its limits.  If any of you have information
>or even just a name of any woman writer who lived from
>600-1450, could you please e-mail to me that name, and any
>information which might help me find out more about the
>woman?  Or post the info if you think it of interest.
>
>Thank you in advance.
>Vajk
 
I doubt there was anyone who lived from 600 to 1450 (850 years?!!!).
:-) :-)
George Slade the Dragoon


Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: klosky@cage.Colorado.EDU (KLOSKY JAMES LEDLIE )
Subject: Re: Illegal targets (was: period fighting styles)
Reply-To: klosky@cage.Colorado.EDU (KLOSKY JAMES LEDLIE )
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 16:37:17 GMT

In article <1993Jan22.215832.1776@news.vanderbilt.edu>, cctimar@athena.cas.vanderbilt.edu (Charles the clerk) writes:
>To all upon the Rialto doth Charles the clerk send his greetings!
>
>As a non-fighter, I don't know whether this will work, but:
>
>Leave various areas forbidden as targets.
>
>A fighter hit in these areas is still deemed to be hit, just as if the
>area were not forbidden.  For example, if you block a shot with your
>hand, you lose that arm.
>
>However, a fighter, after accepting the blow, may inform his opponent
>and the marshal that he thinks that the opponent was deliberately
>targeting a forbidden area.  This would then be tried in a Court of
>Chivalry that evening.  The marshal may also decide to suspend the
>accused until that Court, if he is confident that the accusation is
>justified.
>
>Would this work?

I would think it is a bit overkillish.  Having the groin as a legal
target which fighters are basically forbidden to aim for seems to 
work well, with those who intentionally hit the groin area winning
only general disdain.  Social isolation is a more powerful force 
than any "official" proceding.

==================================================================
Otto the Obscure                       klosky@bechtel.Colorado.EDU
Caer Galen, Outlands
     -and-
Ledlie Klosky, Student
Boulder, Colorado
==================================================================
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: parr@acs.ucalgary.ca (Charles Parr)
Subject: Re: awarding awards
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 93 14:37:18 GMT
Organization: The University of Calgary, Alberta

In article <SOMMERFELD.93Jan17112959@unknown.apollo.hp.com> sommerfeld@apollo.hp.com (Bill Sommerfeld) writes:
>In article <rwb3kac@rpi.edu> habura@vccnw09.its.rpi.edu (Andrea Marie Habura) writes:
>
>   Surprises: I would prefer to see, at least at the Peerage level, awards
>   *not* be a surprise. 
>
>Actually, I think *no* award in the SCA should be a surprise... for
>one thing, the intended recipient may not *want* it (and the often
>associated responsibilities).  It's best to find this out *before* a
>scroll or whatever is commissioned and some artist burns some tens of
>hours working on it under time pressure..
>
>Any potential recipient should be warned at least an hour before court
>and given the opportunity to decline, or postpone, the award.
>
>[BTW, if anyone ever attempts to surprise me with an award, I'll
>flat-out refuse it..]

Which, in my opinion, is a good reason to suprize people.

The SCA would be the better if people ceased to think of awards
as being prizes, honours, and danglies, and began to think
of the 'awards' as what they are supposed to be: Agreements
with the crown that you will continue to enrich the realm.

A peerage is *not* a gift, at least in theory, it's a 
contract of service to your fellow members.

A few people *honestly* standing up in court and saying,
"Gosh, yer Maj, I'm honoured, but I hung up my swords last
week ,and have quit fighting so I *can't* fufill my duties."
would do much for this cause.

Unfortunately, if we don't suprize people, we lose this
opportunity.

Also, *I* would rather be suprized, if hell ever freezes
over and the King and Queen want to hang spurs on me...

Carolus Malvoix
Broken knuckle (not fighting related)
Testy
-- 
Within the span of the last few weeks I have heard elements of
separate threads which, in that they have been conjoined in time,
struck together to form a new chord within my hollow and echoing
gourd. --Unknown net.person
From: gorilla@cats.ucsc.edu (Christopher John Arnold)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: robes/cloaks
Date: 25 Jan 93 01:51:21 GMT
Organization: University of California; Santa Cruz
NNTP-Posting-Host: am.ucsc.edu


Quoth uni@acs.bu.edu (Shaen Bernhardt) not too long ago...
>
>
>I'm looking for a source for full length ritual robes with those
>long floppy sleeves and a long draping hood.  Black would be nice.
>
>uni

Make your own.

A copy of a pattern can be found in the Knowne World Handbook, which
is available from the registry of the society. someone else on
the Rialto (here) should have patterns lying around that you can copy.

 					Ever in service to the Society,

						Caradoc
===========================================================================
Caradoc ap Gwydion 		Chris Arnold
College of St. David		gorilla@cats.ucsc.edu
Kingdom of the West
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Awarding Awards or Ooh, Ah, Oh
From: kwilliam@wndrsvr.la.ca.us (Karen E. Williams)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 03:14:27 GMT
Organization: Wonder Server - Public Access for SoCal

> the Crown Prince has announced his intention to give out nothing BUT
> real scrolls), but they don't even show the scrolls to the populace 
> (something I grew accustomed to seeing in the East), let alone 
> identify the scrolls' makers.
> 
> (This isn't just a case of sour grapes from a scribe; I haven't been 
> called upon to make any court scrolls.  I'd just like to SEE the scrolls
> as they're being awarded.)
Amazing, how customs differ.  Here in sunny (?!) Caid, an award is given 
accompanied by a printed, form, "Promissory Note", signed by the 
pertinant Personages, then anywhere from a week to several years, the 
local scribes and illuminators deliver a hand made scroll.  This means we 
always have a backlog.  I believe I've only seen a very few instances of 
the completed scroll handed out at the same time the peer was created...
 
I think there are obvious good points and bad points to either 
system...in the Eastern system the scribe necessarily has to be discreet, 
and stick to a deadline-- and of course, no Scriptorium backlog...on the 
Western/Caidan side, we have a moderate to enormous backlog, but the 
chance to have the entire populace ooh and ahh when they're actually 
handed out, in public, three times a year.

ciorstan macAmhlaidh

[*> Management may or may not agree with the above comments.
[*> Wonder Server; Just Waffling around... Call 1-310-370-3069
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mjc+@cs.cmu.edu (Monica Cellio)
Subject: Re: Province jurisdictions || "Persona Packs"
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 16:01:53 GMT

[Request for information on Viking stuff]

For information on the specific subject of women's garb of the era, get
CA 59, "Women's Garb in Northern Europe, 450-100 CE: Frisians, Angles, 
Franks, Balts, Vikings, and Finns".  I can't speak for all those places,
but it far surpasses anything else I've ever seen on Viking dress, and the 
authors are careful researchers who are very good about citing sources.

For more general Viking-era information, see if you can get your hands
on _From Viking to Crusader_, edited by Else Roesdahl and David Wilson.
It just came out last year; I just got my copy and haven't read it all yet,
but it looks generally good and I hear good things about it from someoen
whose opinion I trust.  It's $65, so you probably want to try borrowing it.

Ellisif
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman)
Subject: Re: Peers-in-training
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 22:25:41 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

Greetings from Arval!  Hal Raeburn and Taliesin asked interesting
questions.

> what is it that you believe to be the important factor in
> becoming/choosing an apprentice/squire/protege?

> And for those who are on the other end of the belt..why did you accept
> your Peer's offer, and what do you hope to accomplish in the end?

For brevity, we might adopt the word "associate" as a general term for
these relationships.  I was never the minor player in any such
relationship, though I was once on the verge of accepting a squirehood, but
mundane circumstance interfered.  At the time, I want to enter the
relationship because I admired the knight enormously and felt that there
was a great deal I could have learned from him, on the field but more
importantly off the field in his other endeavors.  He was also a Pelican
and an artisan of some note, and I expected our relationship to draw on all
his skills.

When I consider an associate of my own, I look for an active, well-trained
mind, interest in my own arts, and potential for contribution to the
Society at large.  I can't tell you how I measure potential, but I usually
sum it up this way: I hope that each of my apprentices will someday be able
to win at least half the debates we have.

Taliesin wrote:

> I have heard it said that in practice that it is the squire's knight or
> master who nominates said squire for consideration for the Chivalry.  That
> would seem to make squire-hood a prerequisite for knighthood.

I think (and hope) this is a mis-interpretation.  If a gentle is an
associate, then his master's opinion will be highly valued in any
discussion of elevating him to the peerage.  Many peers will defer to his
master in deciding when he is ready, and may well not mention his name
until his master has opened the discussion.  However, if someone is _not_
an associate, it should certainly not disqualify a candidate from
consideration, and members of the order should consider it their duty to
consider candidates who have no one to speak for them.  I have not observed
in the East that lack of an association is a bar to advancement.  I have
heard that it is often so in other kingdoms but I have no direct
knowledge.

===========================================================================
Arval Benicoeur                                       mittle@watson.ibm.com
From: st1xe@rosie.uh.edu (Brown, Derek S) William Silke
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: glasses
Date: 27 Jan 1993 11:37 CST
Organization: University of Houston
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: rosie.uh.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    


In reference to the person who felt decided to develop a clergy persona
because he felt it was the most logical for having glasses, check the 
Complete Anachranist #1 or #2 (I can't remember which) for the issue on
period eyewear.

For the others here, eyewear was period for many of the upper class and at
one time was even in fasion in Italy.  The eyewear consisted of gemstones
that had been polished to a round surface that magnified the light.  It was
held by either a mask set up with a small pole or by a crosspiece that
pointed above the eyebrow.

			  --
			 /  \
	O---O		O    O
	  |
	  |
  	  -

The second construction had a small flat piece on top that the owner would
use to hold the glasses in place.

What is interesting about these is what they meant.  Because the lenses were
made of gems, the size of the lens demonstrated your wealth and social
status.  But it must have horribly screwed up their vision if they used 
glasses and didn't need to.  Fortunently it didn't stay in fasion very
long.

Anyways, that's a very brief rundown of eyewear.  If you really need more,
check the CA.



William Silke
From: tip@lead.aichem.arizona.edu (Tom Perigrin)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: timepieces
Date: 21 Jan 93 23:19:57 GMT
Organization: University of Arizona UNIX Users Group


Some sundials, almost all astrolabes, and almost any computer can be used to
tell time in unequal hours.    Sundials need a 'nodus', a small bump or hole
which casts a point spot or point of light.  This intersects curving lines.
A ring dial is perfectly suited, and can be trivially constructed from a
cylindar of cardboard or pipe (a large copper pipe would do nicely).   You
can modify the isntructions in Waugh's book "sundials" to make unequal hours
insted of equal hours.  Basically you keep his noon line (although it becomes
6), set 1 and 12 at straight horizontal, and calculate the points inbetween
using a bit of mathematical trickery.   Read the book and it should
be clear.  If not, give me a yell and I can tell you how to do it.

Astrolabes often have unequal hours marked on thm, but they are not quick
to use.   It takes me almost a minute to find the time with mine.

You could program a computer to do it for you.  I have most of the code
needed,  but it is in fortrash (don't yell at me, I was young when I did it)
and it is on hardcopy only.
From: duncan@rti.rti.org
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Persona question
Date: 26 Jan 93 20:12:44 GMT
Organization: Research Triangle Institute, RTP, NC

In article <1k3rpn$m3b@agate.berkeley.edu> cozzlab@garnet.berkeley.edu () writes:
>In article <1993Jan25.043934.530@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu> greg@silver.lcs.mit.edu (Hossein Ali Qomi (mka Gregory F. Rose)) writes:
>>... If your father was Ludwig, you would be
>>"AElfgarus filius Hludowici".
>
>...and in "theodisk" (=people's speech) it would be AElfrag Ludwigs sunu,
>I think....
>
>
>Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin		Dorothy J. Heydt
>

Far be it for me to question the learned Hossein, but I thought that
the Latin form of Ludwig was Clovis. Had that changed by post classical
times?  Assuming it still valid, then AElfgar, "Elf Spear", would then
perhaps be "Elvis".

Thank you very much.

Steve Duncan
duncan@rti.rti.org
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: atterlep@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Cardinal Ximenez)
Subject: Re: What is this Group?
Organization: National Association for the Disorganized
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1993 20:41:19 GMT

bnostran@lynx.dac.northeastern.edu (Solveig Throndardottir) writes:

>Actually the attempt at forming an electronic household was driven off
>of the Rialto by being rather loudly and repeatedly denounced.

  Actually, this isn't strictly true.  Wulfgar Silverbaer did, in fact, form
a household on the Rialto but nothing really came of it...there isn't all that
much for a Rialto household to do.

		Alan Fairfax Aluricson, Fenris Herald
		Canton of the Riding of Hawkland Moor
		Barony of Northwoods, Midrealm
		atterlep@vela.acs.oakland.edu		**Magnitudo Vocis**
From: Henry.Best@f120.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Henry Best)
Sender: Uucp@blkcat.UUCP
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: brain damage
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 15:42:14 -0500

In a posting on narrow-focus events, I suggested that Jeff Sussman might have
experience to share concerning background information packets.
 
I gave you the wrong name. Jeff Sussman is Duke Richard Fitzgilbert of Storvik.
I have no idea why I associated him with U Toronto's Tabard Inn events. Aryk
will have the correct name and contact info.
 
Sometimes I just have a neuron mis-fire. Can't be helped.
 
                                        Henry
From: hairy@sloth.equinox.gen.nz (Phil Anderson)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Potential New Topics 
Distribution: world
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 93 10:11:27 GMT
Organization: Lethargy Inc.


In article <C16rzq.4Hw@grex.ann-arbor.mi.us> 
mcdaniel@grex.ann-arbor.mi.us writes:

  > The period herald wore the arms of his lord.  I think that all heralds
  > in the Society should do the same.  The green tabard should be
  > abolished.

M'lord, I must disagree with that latter point. A herald acting for an 
individual would, I agree, do well to wear the arms of that person, but 
I see an advantage in having a single, widely-recognised insignia for 
those heralds doing "official" rather than "personal" announcements.

Edward the Discalceate
Southron Gaard, Caid

 ----------------------------------------------
 Phil Anderson  ***  hairy@sloth.equinox.gen.nz
 ----------------------------------------------
       "No-one is equal to anyone else!"
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca