From: awerling@nmsu.edu (WERLING)
Subject: Re: Using the dictionary
Organization: NMSU Computer Science
	<AWERLING.92Sep11120925@dante.nmsu.edu>
	<ZEN.92Sep12090547@death.corp.sun.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1992 19:15:17 GMT

In article <ZEN.92Sep12090547@death.corp.sun.com> zen@death.corp.sun.com (d) writes:

- Amazing.  To ignore what a dictionary says... sigh.  It's not the end
- of all arguments, but it certainly can shed light on subjects.

Well, when you're dealing with the real-world, and how the real-world
defines something, a dictionary is not that useful.  We have terms out
there like "family values" and "politically correct."  You could look
up all the words in those phrases and have no inkling of the rhetoric involved.

- My 1976 Webster's new collegiate dictionary defines sexism as:

- Prejudice or discrimination based on sex; esp: discrimination against
- women.

- (Quick definitions of prejudice and discrimination; prejudice is 
- an "irrational attitude of hostility directed against an individual, a
- group, a race, or their supposed characteristics".  Discrimination is
- "a prejudiced or prejudicial outlook, action, or treatment.")

That seems to be in sync with what most people mean when they say
"sexism."  However,...

- What's wrong with that?  Seems reasonably succinct to me.
   
It is succinct.  But how does it shed light?  As I've already
asserted, we already *knew*, as people involved in this culture, what
"sexism" means when we use it in modern times.

- > My only point is that a dictionary is not very useful when we all know
- > the basic premise of a word.

- The problem is that quite a few people are ignorant, about
- dictionaries and about the meanings of words in general.  And people try
- to redefine (incorrectly) words in an attempt to undermine what other
- people are saying (e.g. those people who define "feminist" as
- "castrating woman"... *smile*)

I guess my basic objection stemmed from someone implying that the word
"sexist" simply meant "gender exclusive."  This person was referring
to Women's Studies courses as sexist, and also ammended that he was
placing no value judgment on that label.  He went on to refer to the
dictionary, which I felt was dishonest, considering that we all knew
that when we say "sexist" in our culture, we mean something entirely 
negative.

- > Nonsense.  We all know that he is used gender-neutrally.  The thread
- > is about the implications.  The effects.   What such a useage *does*.

- We don't all know, because it's not true.  The effects are obvious
- -- I just posted a study (here in alt.feminsim) done that showed that using
- "man" for people was *not* a nuetral term, and that people *did*
- associate males when the term was used.  It doesn't really matter what
- my inner feelings on the word are, if I call all women "sluts", then I
- should expect to have a different reaction than if I used a word with
- less negative meaning.  You can use "he" as a gender neutral term all
- you want, but it's not -- unless you look it up some definitions of how
- it's used in a dictionary, say... *smile*... (which, of course, only
- says that you have to take dictionaries with a grain of salt....)

We are saying the same thing about the "neutral" he.  My argument is
that people *do* use "he" as a gender-neutral pronoun, but that it has
the effect of a masculine pronoun.  Same thing you're saying. :)

- Indeed.  But when you say things like "he" is a gender neutral term,
- you're wrong.  

No.  I am saying that "he" is *used* as a gender-neutral term.  I did
not say that it works as one or has the effect of one.

- When you say that using a dictionary is dishonest, I
- think you're off the deep end.  We are using the same words, but if we
- disagree with the definitions, connotations, or their effects, then
- we're not really communicating with them.

But, as you know, we *do* agree on the definitions, connotations, and
effects.  Thing is, with a dictionary, you only get a definition.  And
it's not always going to have anything to do with a modern context.

--
Andrew Werling    awerling@nmsu.edu    yip@acca.nmsu.edu
Transmitting from Planet Yip--where everyone you meet 
			      is already dead.
Xref: sparky alt.feminism:1119 soc.men:16394