From: query@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Samuel Green)
Subject: Re: Walking her to the car.
Organization: Northwestern University, Evanston Illinois.
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 21:09:56 GMT

In article <1992Aug14.092850.9423@uoft02.utoledo.edu> dcrosgr@uoft02.utoledo.edu writes:
>In article <1992Aug14.094954.8975@news.acns.nwu.edu>, query@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Samuel Green) writes:
>> *Dons Asbestos Suit*
>> 
>> 	I usually wind up having to walk women either home (if close) to a
>> train station or bus stop, or to their car, after any situation where I
>> have been dealing with women.  I don't mind being expected to do this, I
>> guess because I have been trained to understand security and safety,
>> (courtesy of the US govt, alas) and I don't want to see anyone get hurt.
>> 	The reason that I specify women in the above?  Simple:  Most men
>> are too proud to admit that they are worried about walking alone.  Most
>> women are NOT too proud.  If someone asks me to walk with them, I do.  I
>> expect the same if I ask, and I have always gotten it.
>
>Proud? Let me get this straight, if you know you are probably going to
>ridiculed and looked down upon for doing something, it is not 'pride' that
>prevnts you from doing it, it is not wanting to be called effeminate (sp)
>names.

	Yes, PROUD.  Most men (according to your post) are willing to risk
sexual assault, robbery, or just plain violence rather than risk being
insulted?  According to my book, thats pride, and too damn much of it.
Perhaps 'stupidity' (not saying a man is stupid for going alone, just to be
clear, but that action IS stupid).  But, hell, if someone thinks that it is
better to risk (quite a high risk around here) their life, just to avoid a
bit of name calling (which I have NEVER seen happen when a guy did ask)
then I say more power to them, and I will STILL either accompany them or
follow them.

>
>I could just see one of the males in one of the clubs announcing:
>
>"I'd like to leave now. Could someone please walk me out to my car so I don't
>get attacked?"
>
>You have missed an evvent that has shown up too much even on this
>newsgroup--real men don't worry about being attacked syndrome. WOmen get wlaked
>to their car, men do the escorting, and forget about the consequences
>damnit--you're SUPPOSED to be a man!
>
>Most men would rather risk the attack than be labelled a phrase that indicates
>they were born either without male genitals, or they are real, real tiny.

	If the above is your opinion (and, since you stated it in the "Most
men would rather risk the attack than be labelled" I am going to assume
that you at least support it in some way) then I worry about you.  In all
the times I have seen a guy ask for company, I have NEVER seen ANYONE
ridicule them.  It is a fact of life around here, and in most places.  To
go out alone, especially late at night, is to virtually BEG to be attacked.
Then you have the other things they can do, and the chances get pretty
grim.

>
>That is not pride, it is trying to avoid ridicule.
>
>> 	Also, women, while potentially just as good at self defense as men
>> usually are, do not usually have the same background as far as physicality,
>> as men do.  I do not know many women who fought often in school, or who
>> were actively encouraged to engage in exertion, as many men are.  It is
>> p[retty much a fact:  Your average male is genetically given a higher
>> ability to fight than your average woman, while potentials may differ.
>
>Maybe women should do something for themselves on their own--like overcoming
>the difference by LEARNING to fight, and stop counting on men to be their hired
>guns. (Actually, welfare-supplied guns.)  
>
>									It
>> is a fact:  Your average man has been in MANY more fights than your average
>> woman.
>
>See comment directly above. Just because I have been in more fights than you
>does not place a responsabilty on me to protect you.  

	Many women do, as do many men who do not fit the norm, take self
defense classes.  Though that still dosent change one basic fact:  Your
average woman was not RAISED in a situation where defence or figiting
skills were given support, and, as a result, no matter how much or how good
their later training is, they have a VERY HUGE problem to overcome:  Mind
set.  If you learn to do anything later in life, it is much more difficult
to get so good as to become instinctual with it, as you almost need to be
with self defence. An example:  A friend of mine decided several years ago
to learn karate.  After about 5 years of very intensive training, they got
their brown belt (I met them while they were eithe blue or purple (looks
the same to me)) and they were considered QUITE skilled by both the
instructors and other students.  Yet, even though I have had no martial
arts training, and the only hand to hand skills I have were from various
military training, I was able to DEMOLISH them in sparring, and, in the one
real fight we had (an argument got out of hand) *I* had to be pulled off of
*THEM*.  Now, as I do not claim to be a great fighter (insurgency is more
my game), this was a pretty strange situation.  After a bit of discussion
between myself and the person involved and their instructors, it was
generally aggreed that because they had begun the training in their 30's
and simnce mine had mostly occurred between the ages of 17 and 19, that I
had a more "instinctual" grasp of fighting.  My friend woulod have to be
several orders of magnitude better in outright skill before they would be
able to overcome their age defecit.  That is the general consensus from the
group.  So, I do not think that merely taking training will help a whole
lot, though it may give some options.   The problem still remains:  it is
true that most women, even with decent training, will not be able to defend
themselves as well as a man with similar training.  

>
>	It is a fact:  Your average man recieves much more encouragement to
>> engage in sports than your average woman.  Note the use of "average"
>
>Well then I suppose women are just going to have to stand up for themselves and
>compensate. This is 1992, and the old 'we've-been-denied-opportunities' line is
>a little thin. You want to get stronger? Go to Vic Tanney. You want to get
>meaner, go tke a self-defense class at some community service program?
>
>You want me to defend you in a fight? You first be ready to defend ME!
>
>> 	Someone posted earlier about men being less prone to being
>> attacked.  I can't speak for any area other than the ones I know, but... 
>> 	In my neighborhood there is virtually no violence done to women.
>> The reason?  The last time a rapist was caught, (by the girls family),
>> around here, he was supposedly castrated by the girls brother...  That is
>> only a rumor, but it *has* worked wonders, and gossip does fly fast around
>> here.  Also, men in my area are more prone to be in gangs than not in them,
>> so there is a lot of that around here.  I am much more likely to be
>> attacked than a woman, but, on the average, much more likely to be able to
>> defend myself.
>> 	Anyway, as far as it goes, I think that there definately IS a need
>> for ANYONE who goes out late, or to a dangerous area, or has ANY worry
>> about being attacked, to get someone to go with them.  It is inconvienent,
>> sure, but, what's a little inconvenience compared to the risk of someone
>> getting attacked or worse, killed?  
>
>When the defendee is someone I do not know, the defender is me, an equation
>kicks into place--the more likely she is to be attacked, the less prudent it is
>for me to defend them. Why? Because of something you left out of your
>equation--as their risk of being attacked goes up, MY risk of being attacked
>goes up.
>
>And no one who is not friend or family EVER is worth that.
>
	I hope that the rest of the world does not feel like that...
	Ever hear of a woman named Cathy Genovese?  She was murdered in New
York (I believe) some time ago.  Seems that a man just walked up to her,
stabbed her, and ran off.  She began to scream, a few people looked out
their windows, but nothing more.  She screamed that she had been stabbed,
and that she was being killed...  No one helped out.  She tried to crawl
off, and the man came back several more times, each time stabbing her and
then running off...  she continued to crawl and scream for help but no one
came.  Finally, the man killed her.  It was SEVERAL HOURS AFTER THE MURDER
before the police were called.  When asked why they didn't jpoin in, many
of the neighbors listed their good reasons as "We thought it was a lovers
quarrel," or "We were just too dang tired" or "I thought someone else was
going to help" .  A woman died, and it could have been EASILY prevented if
the neighbors had just called the police or even gone down there...

>> 	I personally would be upset if I heard about ANYONE getting raped
>> or otherwise attacked, not just people I knew well.  If it can happen to
>> them, it can happen to you.                          ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>Bingo!
>
>I prefer not to increase my odds of being a stat for the purpose of someone
>else not being a stat--unless it is friend or family.
>
	What if you were attacked while walking alone?  What if, say,
someone just came up from behind, whomped you with a lead pipe, and then
proceeded to sodomize your unconcious body?  Would you want help?  Would
you understand if a passerby decided that it was better to leave you to
your fate because it would be raising their risk if they helped you out?
Would you later tell them, assuming that you could, and assumming that you
survived, tell them that they were quite smart for not raising their own
risk and not helping out someone who was not a friend or family member?
	Or, would you wish that they had helped you, that they had cared
enough bout people to help, even though it increased their risk?  Would you
be thankful if they tried to save you from this?  
	It is NOT a different situation, by the way.  It is simply another
person raising their risk of injury to help out another person lower
theirs.  Most reports show that attackers of the mugger rapist sort will
run off if confronted by other people.  It could save your life.


>DC
>
>PS. But if I am ever walking through a high crime area, I'll give you a call to
>help defend me, even though you are aware that I would not recipricate.
>
>(And if you fail to see the reasoning behind that statement--women are happy to
>ask for an escort, but pigs will fly before they will escort a male.)

	Hey, if you are ever in Chicago, look me up.  I'll be happy to
escort you.  As far as it not being reciprocated, no big deal.  I would
just ask a friend of mine to go with me for the return trip.  I do not
worry about what I will get out of something like this.  I just like to
know that someone else was able to avoid a bad experience.  (That goes back
to the fact that I have been trained to deal with these kinds of attacks,
and thus I believe my chances of recoveringfrom or avoiding an attack are
as good or better than someone elses.)
	Sam (Who is quite amazed at the flying pigs outside his window...)