HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: scvax@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu
Newsgroups: alt.great-lakes
Subject: Re: Pollution special
Date: 14 Aug 92 00:22:13 CDT
Organization: University of Kansas Academic Computing Services


 In a previous post about the PBB problem in the great lakes I said:
> There could very well be a hundred double-blind, 
                                     ^^^^^^^^^^^^
> controlled studies showing these effects from chronic exposure to low-level
> PBB/PCB's alone, but they made no mention of them.

This is the pharmacologist in me showing through.  Double blind studies are
used in the evaluation of new drugs to keep any bias out of the results.
(neither the researcher or the patient are told if they're taking/admin-
istering a drug or placebo).  In toxicology testing it probably doesn't 
matter if your cell cultures or rats know what's in the food they're eating.
An objective, randomized study is what I had in mind.

I will never post after 11 PM again!

 Dave      huhta@phys31.phsx.ukans.edu   scvax@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu
Newsgroups: alt.great-lakes
From: benjamin@tuna.az05.bull.com (Paul Benjamin)
Subject: Re: Pronunciation
Organization: Bull HN
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1992 00:10:49 GMT

In article <20880@nntp_server.ems.cdc.com> mstemper@ems.cdc.com (Michael
Stemper) writes:
>Please settle a disagreement for me. Is Houghton, MI pronounced:
>
>	hoe-ton
>	  OR
>	how-ton
>
>-- 
>#include <Standard_Disclaimer.h>
>Michael F. Stemper
>Power Systems Consultant
>mstemper@ems.cdc.com
>

hoe-ton, or at least that is how Houghton Lake is pronounced.

Paul Benjamin                 Phone:  (602) 862-4627
Bull HN Information Systems   Fax:    (602) 862-4535
Phoenix, Arizona              E-mail: benjamin@tuna.az05.bull.com

Newsgroups: alt.great-lakes
From: jwagner@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Judith O Wagner)
Subject: Re: That other eternal question
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 12:06:22 GMT

In article <jmlake.714024156@bach.cogsci.uiuc.edu> jmlake@bach.cogsci.uiuc.edu (J M Lake) writes:
>I'm looking for nice vacation spots along Lake Michigan for a couple without
>children.  Anyone have any favorites for a September weekend getaway?  We'll
>be starting from Urbana, Illinois, about two hours south of Chicago. 
>
>Mike
>--
>J. Michael Lake          Beckman Institute for Advanced Science and Technology
>Dept. of Comp. Science           jmlake@uiuc.edu             Urbana, IL  61801


Mike--one of our favorite spots is Door County WI.  It is especially
nice in the Fall--fewer people, the weather is still beautiful.  We have
stayed in a number of different places in Egg Harbor, Sister Bay, etc.  
I'm sure you can get more detailed info from the chamber of commerce--try the 
one at Sturgeon Bay.

Enjoy!

Judy Wagner
Newsgroups: alt.great-lakes
From: tfischer@ncsa.uiuc.edu (Thomas C. Fischer)
Subject: Re: Pronunciation
Organization: National Center for Supercomputing Applications (NCSA)
Distribution: na
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 23:23:03 GMT
Keywords: Yoopers

In article <20880@nntp_server.ems.cdc.com>, mstemper@ems.cdc.com (Michael Stemper) writes:
|> Please settle a disagreement for me. Is Houghton, MI pronounced:
|> 
|> 	hoe-ton
|> 	  OR
|> 	how-ton
|> 
|> -- 
|> #include <Standard_Disclaimer.h>
|> Michael F. Stemper
|> Power Systems Consultant
|> mstemper@ems.cdc.com


It's hoe-ton


tom

tfischer@ncsa.uiuc.edu
Newsgroups: alt.great-lakes
From: jmlake@bach.cogsci.uiuc.edu (J M Lake)
Subject: That other eternal question
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 04:02:36 GMT

I'm looking for nice vacation spots along Lake Michigan for a couple without
children.  Anyone have any favorites for a September weekend getaway?  We'll
be starting from Urbana, Illinois, about two hours south of Chicago. 

Mike
--
J. Michael Lake          Beckman Institute for Advanced Science and Technology
Dept. of Comp. Science           jmlake@uiuc.edu             Urbana, IL  61801
Newsgroups: alt.great-lakes
From: budnick@cc.utah.edu
Subject: Re: Pronunciation
Organization: University of Utah Computer Center
Distribution: na
Date: 22 Aug 92 11:24:34 MDT

In article <20880@nntp_server.ems.cdc.com>, mstemper@ems.cdc.com (Michael Stemper) writes:
> Please settle a disagreement for me. Is Houghton, MI pronounced:
> 
> 	hoe-ton
> 	  OR
> 	how-ton
> 
> -- 
> #include <Standard_Disclaimer.h>
> Michael F. Stemper
> Power Systems Consultant
> mstemper@ems.cdc.com

After living there for five years (but, sadly, no more) I pronounce it more 
like

hoet'n

Peter
Newsgroups: alt.great-lakes
From: prb@chinet.chi.il.us (Paul Botts)
Subject: Re: Pollution special
Organization: Chinet - Public Access UNIX
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1992 19:22:34 GMT

In article <scott.713798069@origin> scott@origin.life.uiuc.edu (Scott Howard) writes:
>
>>How so?  How cold is the bottom of Lake Michigan?  Yes I know
>>Superior has a 900 ft hole in the center, and it will be cold.
>>But why does that prevent bacteria from growing.  The rate will slow,
>>of course, but that's not necessarily a bad thing.
>
>Slow means the bugs that are eating the icky PCB's get out-competed
>and don't live. (see Darwin, et. al. for references. :-)
>

Well, the deepest trenches in Superior are more like 1,300 feet, the
ones in Michigan get down to 900. But that't not relevant, because 99%
of all the PCB-laden sediment in all the Lakes is in the harbors and
rivermouths (like Waukegan Harbor, Hamilton Harbor, Sheboygan River,
etc.). Water temperature in those areas is much higher, averages above
70 degress F in summer.

Also, somebody pointed out above that one important feature of PCBs is
the fat-solubility: that they tend to concentrate in the fatty parts of
the fish. From one angle (the human consumption point of view), that's
not a bug, that;s a feature - it means that the danger of eating the
fish can be greatly reduced by cutting away the fat.

Newsgroups: alt.great-lakes
From: budnick@cc.utah.edu
Subject: Re: Pronunciation
Organization: University of Utah Computer Center
Date: 22 Aug 92 11:27:31 MDT

In article <scott.714492385@phylo>, scott@phylo.life.uiuc.edu (Scott Howard) writes:

> Geogebic? Or whatever, how the heck do you pronounce it?

I believe it is pronounced 

go-ge-bic, with hard g's
From: scott@origin.life.uiuc.edu (Scott Howard)
Newsgroups: alt.great-lakes
Subject: Re: Pollution special
Date: 12 Aug 92 20:29:02 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana

Three thoughts on the fantasy clean-up idea of
using bacteria to break down PCBs in the clays and
soils on the lake bottom:

The breakdown products of PCBs are likely to be
just as toxic as the PCBs themselves, and even more
resistant to bio-degradation.

The sediment is too cold in Michigan and Superior for such 
bacteria to grow.

Think people howl about genetically engineered strawberries?
Just wait till someone tries to release enough super-bugs
to inoculate a Great Lake!

Scott Howard
Dept. Microbiology
University of Illinois
From: jeq@i88.isc.com (Jonathan E. Quist)
Newsgroups: alt.great-lakes
Subject: Re: Pollution special
Date: 13 Aug 92 19:06:31 GMT
Organization: INTERACTIVE Systems Corporation, Naperville, IL

In article <scott.713651342@origin> scott@origin.life.uiuc.edu (Scott Howard) writes:
>Three thoughts on the fantasy clean-up idea of
>using bacteria to break down PCBs in the clays and
>soils on the lake bottom:

Fantasy?  Why is that?  Ever hear of "bioremediation"?
A company in my town just used that to clean up the site of a
leaking underground oil tank.

>The breakdown products of PCBs are likely to be
>just as toxic as the PCBs themselves, and even more
>resistant to bio-degradation.

Again, why is that?  I'm not a chemist, so I don't know what the components
of common PCBs are, though I'm assuming they're organic compounds containing
chlorine.  Something must be done to handle the chlorine safely, but
surely there are some stable, relatively inert compounds containing
chlorine?

>The sediment is too cold in Michigan and Superior for such 
>bacteria to grow.

How so?  How cold is the bottom of Lake Michigan?  Yes I know
Superior has a 900 ft hole in the center, and it will be cold.
But why does that prevent bacteria from growing.  The rate will slow,
of course, but that's not necessarily a bad thing.

>Think people howl about genetically engineered strawberries?
>Just wait till someone tries to release enough super-bugs
>to inoculate a Great Lake!

If the bacteria involved feeds on PCBs and nothing else, what's the
problem?  The colony will grow and thrive until the food runs out.
Then it ceases to exist.

Am I missing something very basic here?
-- 
Jonathan E. Quist                              INTERACTIVE Systems Corporation
jeq@i88.isc.com  '71 CL450-K4 "Gleep", DoD #094        Naperville, IL
Which is worse: using vast wealth to trounce a small country on the battlefield,
or using vast wealth to trounce several countries on the basketball court?
Newsgroups: alt.great-lakes
From: scott@origin.life.uiuc.edu (Scott Howard)
Subject: Re: Pollution special
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 13:14:29 GMT

jeq@i88.isc.com (Jonathan E. Quist) writes:

>Fantasy?  Why is that?  Ever hear of "bioremediation"?
>A company in my town just used that to clean up the site of a
>leaking underground oil tank.

PCB's and Aliphatic Hydrocarbons are radically different in terms
of stability and toxicity. The difference in stability is probably best
likened to the difference in tensile strength between glass and steel.

>Again, why is that?  I'm not a chemist, so I don't know what the components
>of common PCBs are, though I'm assuming they're organic compounds containing
>chlorine.  Something must be done to handle the chlorine safely, but
>surely there are some stable, relatively inert compounds containing
>chlorine?

Most useful strains of bacteria that have been isolated use a process
involving a class of enzymes called mono-oxygenases. When these are
used, they leave by-products that are nearly impossible to break-down
by living organisms. The whole problem here is that there just isn't
any way for the bugs to gain energy from the process. They aren't doing
it just for fun, they break down this stuff cause they use it like we use
sugar and protein. Moreover, the concetrations of the toxic chemicals
are so low that there's no reason for the bugs to produce enzymes to
break the stuff down. They'll just eat something else next to them that's more
nutritious, such as a yummy lamphrey corpse.

>How so?  How cold is the bottom of Lake Michigan?  Yes I know
>Superior has a 900 ft hole in the center, and it will be cold.
>But why does that prevent bacteria from growing.  The rate will slow,
>of course, but that's not necessarily a bad thing.

Slow means the bugs that are eating the icky PCB's get out-competed
and don't live. (see Darwin, et. al. for references. :-)

>If the bacteria involved feeds on PCBs and nothing else, what's the
>problem?  The colony will grow and thrive until the food runs out.
>Then it ceases to exist.

>Am I missing something very basic here?
 
Yes. There's not enough nutrient value in the PCBs to entice the
bugs to eat it.

Newsgroups: alt.great-lakes
From: Mike Moran
Subject: Re: That other eternal question
Reply-To: mmoran@arco.com
Organization: ARCO
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 19:14:06 GMT

 jmlake@bach.cogsci.uiuc.edu (J M Lake) writes:
>I'm looking for nice vacation spots along Lake Michigan for a couple without
>children.  Anyone have any favorites for a September weekend getaway?  We'll
>be starting from Urbana, Illinois, about two hours south of Chicago. 
>
 
I'm partial to a little resort called Floradale, on Silver Lake, near Mears,
about 40 miles north of Muskegon.  Bigger sand dunes than down in Indiana,
and definitely a down home, laid-back, old-fashioned (in the good sense) place.
Very close to Pentwater, a quaint "art colony" sort of town.
We've driven there from Dallas 3 times.  September might be out-of-season
for them (like closed) but Ed Bauer (owner/operator for 25 years) could give
you other suggestions if necessary.  I don't have his phone number with me,
but I can get it if you'd like.
-Mike
 (214/754-6622)
 mmoran@arco.com
From: mstemper@ems.cdc.com (Michael Stemper)
Newsgroups: alt.great-lakes
Subject: Pronunciation
Keywords: Yoopers
Date: 21 Aug 92 21:12:08 GMT
Reply-To: mstemper@ems.cdc.com
Distribution: na
Organization: Empros Systems International, a division of Ceridian

Please settle a disagreement for me. Is Houghton, MI pronounced:

	hoe-ton
	  OR
	how-ton

-- 
#include <Standard_Disclaimer.h>
Michael F. Stemper
Power Systems Consultant
mstemper@ems.cdc.com
Newsgroups: alt.great-lakes
From: scott@phylo.life.uiuc.edu (Scott Howard)
Subject: Re: Pronunciation
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1992 14:06:25 GMT

Geogebic? Or whatever, how the heck do you pronounce it?
Newsgroups: alt.great-lakes
From: jeq@i88.isc.com (Jonathan E. Quist)
Subject: Re: Pollution special
Organization: INTERACTIVE Systems Corporation, Naperville, IL
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 15:25:32 GMT

In article <Bt3CHn.84M@chinet.chi.il.us> prb@chinet.chi.il.us (Paul Botts) writes:
>Also, somebody pointed out above that one important feature of PCBs is
>the fat-solubility: that they tend to concentrate in the fatty parts of
>the fish. From one angle (the human consumption point of view), that's
>not a bug, that;s a feature - it means that the danger of eating the
>fish can be greatly reduced by cutting away the fat.
>

However, keep in mind what most of the populace forgets:  You have
to cut away the fat _before_ cooking.  (For those who care, the
same applies to poultry...)  An uncle who fishes daily in Lake Michigan
tells me that lake trout should have the fatty underbelly cut away;
for the amount of fish he eats, the only way he'll touch lake trout
anymore is barbequed over a slow fire, to render as much fat out as
possible.

-- 
Jonathan E. Quist                              INTERACTIVE Systems Corporation
jeq@i88.isc.com  '71 CL450-K4 "Gleep", DoD #094        Naperville, IL
	So just where did George Bush get the idea that he gets to
			decide policy for the U.N.?
Newsgroups: alt.great-lakes
From: chiquita@camelot.bradley.edu (Stephanie Buffman)
Subject: Re: Pronunciation
Keywords: Yoopers
Organization: Bradley University
Distribution: na
Date: 22 Aug 92 00:22:31 GMT

In <20880@nntp_server.ems.cdc.com> mstemper@ems.cdc.com (Michael Stemper) writes:

>Please settle a disagreement for me. Is Houghton, MI pronounced:

>	hoe-ton
>	  OR
>	how-ton

Hoe-ton
Steph
Newsgroups: alt.great-lakes
From: scott@phylo.life.uiuc.edu (Scott Howard)
Subject: Re: That other eternal question
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 05:46:25 GMT

Sleeping Bear Dunes National Lakeshore- check your map of Michigan
and look due west of Traverse Bay, near Empire. Totally wow views...

Avoid Door County at all costs, at least the Green Bay side of it.


-Raised on the lake, trapped in Flatland...
Newsgroups: alt.great-lakes
From: steve@lopez.marquette.MI.US (Steve Lasich)
Subject: Re: That Eternal Question
X-bbs-room: Great Lakes Net (room #202)
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 06:30:31 EDT
Organization: Great White North/UPLink

susan@noaapmel.gov (Susan Collicott) writes:

>  How does one contact Da Yoopers, for buying tapes etc?

From the Michigan Bell Marquette County white pages:

	You Guys Records
	795 Steel Rd
	Ishpeming MI 49849
	(906)485-5595

Their latest offering, Yoopy Do Wah, is available on CD at finer
Shopkos everywhere.  You may even be able to get it at Musicland.

Steve Lasich, acsl@nmumus.bitnet, steve@lopez.marquette.mi.us
From: chem64@jane.uh.edu (Boyd, Kevin)
Newsgroups: alt.great-lakes
Subject: Re: Pollution special
Date: 19 Aug 92 20:52:00 GMT
Organization: University of Houston
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <1992Aug17.152532.8967@i88.isc.com>, jeq@i88.isc.com (Jonathan E. Quist) writes...
>In article <Bt3CHn.84M@chinet.chi.il.us> prb@chinet.chi.il.us (Paul Botts) writes:
>>Also, somebody pointed out above that one important feature of PCBs is
>>the fat-solubility: that they tend to concentrate in the fatty parts of
>>the fish. From one angle (the human consumption point of view), that's
>>not a bug, that;s a feature - it means that the danger of eating the
>>fish can be greatly reduced by cutting away the fat.
>>
> 
>However, keep in mind what most of the populace forgets:  You have
>to cut away the fat _before_ cooking.  (For those who care, the
>same applies to poultry...)
This is actually not true (the poultry). There was a big study published last
year about this. The fat doesn't penetrate into the flesh, even when cooked.
So for poultry anyway, the only thing you get by removing the skin before
cooking is dry poultry.

  An uncle who fishes daily in Lake Michigan
>tells me that lake trout should have the fatty underbelly cut away;
>for the amount of fish he eats, the only way he'll touch lake trout
>anymore is barbequed over a slow fire, to render as much fat out as
>possible.
> 
>-- 
>Jonathan E. Quist                              INTERACTIVE Systems Corporation
>jeq@i88.isc.com  '71 CL450-K4 "Gleep", DoD #094        Naperville, IL
>	So just where did George Bush get the idea that he gets to
>			decide policy for the U.N.?

Sorry for the lousy editing. I'm on a god-awful long hookup to get here, and
nothing works right.

Kevin
Newsgroups: alt.dads-rights,alt.child-support,soc.men
From: yasu@ll.mit.edu (Alan Yasutovich)
Subject: Re: The Second Family
Organization: MIT Lincoln Laboratory
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 92 12:56:11 GMT

In article <1992Aug12.214616.8774@u.washington.edu> jcr@milton.u.washington.edu (Mr. EuStress) writes:
>Chris Rutkowski writes
>> After some time, I remarried, and am now a new
>> parent with my second wife.  Things are great, and I am enjoying going
>> through the joys of fatherhood all over again, this time sharing the
>> experience with a caring, attentive mother. 
>
>    What will you do if your new wife
>    also takes "her" kids from you?
>
>    Please don't answer with: "She won't."

	Well now you get into the rediculous.  Don't go to work; you
	may have an accident.  Where does it stop?

	Personally I believe that if a person is really honest with
	themselves they can know within themselves if either the
	partner of relationship is pre-disposed to "non-committment"
	down the line.  Trouble is that relationships always seem so
	important once you get one, that people generally aren't
	able to see clearly what will be inevitable.

	If you never take any risk, you will never achieve any
	benefit. That's life.  To each their own.

	I do have a certain amount of comfort in knowing that after
	this next child, I'm probably all done.  I'll get a vasectomy
	and never worry about any more than I already have.

-- 
	Alan Yasutovich
	"inquiring  (and nosey) minds WANT TO KNOW!!!"
	I can remember when "safe sex" meant having a padded headboard!!
	Tick Tock.....Tick Tock......Tick Tock .....Tick Tock......
Newsgroups: alt.dads-rights,soc.men,soc.women,misc.kids
From: bhv@areaplg2.corp.mot.com (Bronis Vidugiris)
Subject: Re: Allen fights back, denies child abuse
Organization: Motorola, CCR&D, CORP, Schaumburg, IL
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 17:02:15 GMT

In article <1992Aug21.072333.27869@midway.uchicago.edu> thf2@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
)In article <1992Aug20.070347.5939@cbnewsk.cb.att.com> noraa@cbnewsk.cb.att.com (aaron.l.hoffmeyer) writes:
)>But this is what I believed might have happened....  Probably several
)>years ago Woody and Mia drifted apart.  They lived in separate, but
)>facing apartments.  
)
)I think you're reading too much into this fact; the couple never lived
)together.
)
)>That relationship was legal by definition of
)>law, but was still a violation of what most people consider normal.
)
)Not so much "normal," as "ethical."  A sexual relationship between
)stepfather-stepdaughter (and Allen was a father to Soon-Yi since she
)was nine, maybe even six) is much like one between a lawyer and client;
)professor and student; or doctor and patient.  It's a violation of 
)trust and a conflict of interest by someone in a position of power.

I tend to agree with a large part of this.  However, the relationship didn't
occur while Allen was *acting* as a father to Soon-Yi.  It's more like a
relationship between a lawyer and an ex-client.
                                  
I do find this aspect of the story rather disturbing, but a lot of my
reaction to it depends on how much contact Woody had with Soon-Yi as a child.
If he did not have a lot of contact with her (and you mention that he
didn't live with Farrow (?)), I would find it more understandable.
From: bhv@areaplg2.corp.mot.com (Bronis Vidugiris)
Subject: Re: Feminist Gerbil Owners
Organization: Motorola, CCR&D, CORP, Schaumburg, IL
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 23:21:49 GMT

In article <BsuMpD.MvG@cs.psu.edu> beaver@basic.cs.psu.edu (Don Beaver) writes:
)An article entitled, "The Gerbil Mystique," by Tamar Lewin,
)appeared in this Sunday's New York Times Magazine (9 Aug 92),
)pp. 12-14.
)
)For those of you who did not read it, I will summarize the salient points
)(I'm away for two weeks; can't type in the whole article):
)
)1. Men who pay child support or care for their children
)are as common as "talking fish."

)2. There are no feminist gerbils: gerbil males have no idea
)about their offspring, and that's simple biology.

)3. Humans are above gerbils, but biology determines women to be
)the natural caregivers; just look at playgrounds.

)4. Humans are above gerbils, but misogyny, not biology, 
)bars women from power.

)5. Even in a nonsexist world, men will behave like male gerbils:
)(ie. ignore their children).


This reminded me about something I read recently about voles - think it
was in Science News, not 100% sure.

There are two (probably more) types of voles - prarie voles, and mountain
voles.

One group has good 'family values' if their behavior is anthropormorphised-
the male sticks around, helps raise the kids, etc etc.

Another group has just horrible family values - the male impregnates then
leaves.

Both species are still existing just fine.

This is really all sort of besides the point, but what the heck.

Anyway, good luck with your letter of protest - you can probably get some
of the statistics you were looking for in 'Statisitical Abstracts' of the US
if you have time, but your letter is really fine just 'as-is' (IMO).
Newsgroups: alt.dads-rights
From: karl@ddsw1.mcs.com (Karl Denninger)
Subject: Re: Right To Not Support
Summary: More discussion
Organization: Macro Computer Solutions, Inc., Chicago, IL
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 03:38:39 GMT
X-Disclaimer:  Material posted in this article is the sole responsibility of
                the poster and does not represent MCSNet or the system owners.

In article <1992Aug10.184600.3347@desire.wright.edu> sbishop@desire.wright.edu writes:
>In article <1992Aug10.083826.23555@colorado.edu>, fedrick@tigger.cs.Colorado.EDU (Kelvin W. Fedrick) writes:
>
>>  Now you are trying to tell us that both the man and woman *are* equally
>>  responsible. You cant have it both ways.
>
>Financial responsibility should be equal, the same as the amount of genetic
>contribution.  Custody should also be shared and equal.  Tax deductions
>should also be shared and equal.  

If custody is shared and equal, then financial >support< is NIL.  You see,
if child custody is TRULY shared and equal, there isn't a "support" 
requirement to be paid to one parent or another, since each parent has 
to provide support already when the kid is with them!

Until that change comes about, frankly, the "equal protection" position 
for men looks to be in the pro-life camp.

I wonder how many men who are pro-life have that position at least 
bolstered if not defined by the equality issue?

(Yes, I know this is flame-bait.  Flames will be used to barbeque me some
steaks for dinner)

--
Karl Denninger (karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM, <well-connected>!ddsw1!karl)
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Newsgroups: alt.dads-rights,alt.child-support,soc.men,soc.women,misc.legal