From: root@steiny.com (Admin)
Newsgroups: sci.psychology
Subject: Re: NLP info wanted
Date: 3 Oct 92 18:15:24 GMT
Organization: Don Steiny Software


	This was a very long posting.  I am sure there are different opinions
about many of the topics, however I do have some personal knowledge of the
answers to some of the questions.   (I will leave my opinions of Tony Robbins
to myself :-)).

>2.  Why are the seminars and books so #%$#& expensive?

	The people who invented it want to make money.

>4. It seems to me that the story of Richard Bandler is evidence that
>   it isn't a panacea, particularly when applied to oneself.

	The basic split in NLP was over "ecology"--some people believed
in changing people for changes sake, others were concerned about the over-
all person.   NLP does not address the big picture.  There main role model,
Milton Erickson would always influence people to get a job, get married,
and have a family.   

>5. Some acquaintances have mentioned that the charisma of the
>   facilitator may be a major factor in the success of NLP workshops,

	Lee pointed out that perhaps people did not get that much out of
the earlier sessions, the incredible charisma of John and Richard was
a main drawing factor.  One theory of hypnosis is that it is suggestion,
not a special state, and that people generally do what charismatic people
ask them to do.  I have looked out on the sea of faces at NLP seminars
and I have no way of knowing if any of them learned anything.

>   Hmmm.  I wonder if a computer program could be written to help out
>   with this sort of thing.

	I worked with John for about 1 year to make a computer program that
would meta-model people, with some success, I might add.   Bob Dilts did
several program that used galvonic skin response to fly a rocket, hoping
to use it for feedback.   He wrote the program in basic and it could never
really be debugged enough.

>   Thinking big, it seems to me that by means of strategy elicitation
>   and other methods of gaining information about a person's mental
>   organization, one could essentially download significant portions
>   of a person's entire mental program, and then do modifica-tions
>   where desired.

>   For instance, one could download a scientist and then program oneself
>   to essentially -be- her.

	It is alwasy surprising to me that most people think of NLP in terms
of therapy and solutions to personal problem, because I have been acquainted
with John Grinder and the half of NLP that was always concerned with personal
excellence.    John claims to have spent years collecting and incorporating
the strategies of experts in many things.   Knowing John, I have no 
counter-evidence to his claim.   He speaks 7 languages fluently, he 
is an avid rock climber, he a master of many forms of martial arts,
he is an expert in world affairs of all sorts, in business, marketing,
just about anything you can think of.    If ever there was a person for
whom the word "genius" would apply, John is it.   On the other hand, he
was genius before he invented NLP, that's why he invented NLP.   How much
of it is due to NLP techniques?    Besides that, people imitate each
other naturally anyway and just being around exceptional people often
causes something to rub off.   It is the same with charisma, John is
so charismatic, so smart, that anyone would be happy to pay money to be 
half as smart and charismatic as he is.   But can he really teach you to
be that way?   His seminars and books since NLP split up have all been
about personal excellence (Precision, Turtles All the Way Down).

	I have had incredibly good luck since I met John and worked with him.
Not only that, once my wife overheard someone saying to someone else that
people who get to know me start having good luck.    I certainly would not
make any claims about how that happens.   Looking back I still think that
the most important thing about NLP is attitude.   The idea that you influence
people anyway, so you may as well do it in an mutually beneficial way, and
that it is OK to emulate behaviors you admire in others.    Some people
seem to worry about their "self" and that if they try to be like someone else
they will not be themselves.   If you just forget about that and believe that
your "self" is not such a big deal anyway . . .   but, hey, is that Zen or NLP?

-don