HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: Jeff Lee <jlee@smylex.UUCP>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Pennsic Prattle
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 92 22:48:48 EDT
Organization: Shipbrook Software  (Tampa, FL)

Greetings from Godfrey!

Lord Cahan Kyle of Clan Kyle writes:
> 
> Pennsic is the one event each year that is truly special.  It is the
> one event to go to and meet old friends and make new ones.  Who wins
> the war is not that important, having fun with friends from all over
> the Known World is the bottom line.

Hear, hear!  I was saddened, last Pennsic, to witness the actions 
of certain participants in the archery champions' shoot; it was 
apparently deemed acceptable by some to attempt to infuriate (or
otherwise psychologically undermine) the `enemy' archers.

Yes, it's a competition, but do we travel hundreds, sometimes 
thousands, of miles to breed animosity, or to enjoy ourselves?  
Sure, it's nice to win -- but for me, the fun of competing is
more important than whether I actually win or lose (be it archery,
fencing, singing, or whatever).

And speaking of competitions, I've heard that there's to be a
`dynamic duo' competition this Pennsic, with teams consisting of
one Eastrealmer (or Eastrealm ally) and one Midrealmer (or 
Midrealm ally) -- I hope it's true; I'm really looking forward
to it, personally.



> To throw this opportunity away on arguments about who has the best
> fighters, best archers, and the other many "trivial" things people like
> to argue about, is a real waste of time.

True.  After all, everyone KNOWS...  No, I won't say it.  :-)

+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Net:  Jeff Lee / jlee@smylex.uucp / jlee%smylex.uucp@tscs.tscs.com     |
| SCA:  Lord Godfrey de Shipbrook / Wyvernwood, Trimaris                 |
|       Per pale azure and argent, a clarion counterchanged or and gules |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
      "Of course!  Lager!  The only thing that can kill a vindaloo!"
From: Suze.Hammond@f56.n105.z1.therose.pdx.com (Suze Hammond)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Basic Courtesy
Date: 24 Jul 92 05:59:00 GMT
Article-I.D.: therose.712043902.F00005

DS>  From: David Schroeder <ds4p+@andrew.cmu.edu>
DS>  Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
DS>  Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
DS>
DS>  Good gentles --
DS>
DS>  Steven of the Grove posted a "clever" put-down of a song recently
DS>  shared
DS>  with the Rialto.  The body of that post appears below:
DS>
DS>   >Thanks...  This may be useful in convincing people why Filk has no
DS>   >place in the SCA.

Yes, this is discourteous. No one was forcing Stephen to either read this 
posting, or to pass it along to his group.

What did he, or any of us, gain by his discomfitting the composer in this 
way?

Very little, and at too great a cost in unpleasantness, even for those who 
agree. A cheap shot.

Moreach NicMaolain
trifid@agora.rain.com 
 
From: Beth.Appleton@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Beth Appleton)
Sender: FredGate@ocitor.fidonet
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Basic Courtesy
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 20:06:12

 TOA>     *> Somehow, "this example of ________ is so 
 TOA> bad it makes an excellent
 TOA>     *> case for doing away with ________ 
 TOA> entirely..." (to paraphrase) goes
 TOA>     *> beyond blunt criticism and becomes 
 TOA> something that diminishes the
 TOA>     *> attacker more than what is attacked (no 
 TOA> matter _what_ the subject).

 TOA>  Here is where I fail to understand the reasoning 
 TOA> involved. Surely this is
 TOA>  an appropriate forum to discuss issues? And surely actual empirical
 TOA>  examples of one's position are relevant? I fail to see what is
 TOA>  objectionable about the cited general form of 
 TOA> comment. I would much rather
   Totally ignoring most of the commentary on courtesy, I think that the 
 biggest argument *against* Stephan's comment was that he offered no 
 constructive critism.  Basically, hiscomment was blunt and unedifying 
  .  True, had he expounded, the gentle's feelings might have been 
 more injured, but he would have at least *understood* why this 
 particular work was such a bad example.
     Though Stephen's remark was courteously phrased, it did not (in and 
 of itself) further discussion (regardless of the furor it sparked).
       Gwenllian CfM -- who hit "n" as one screen was sufficient to show 
 that the piece in question had nothing to do with the Middle Ages and 
 very little to do with the SCA.  (and who would prefer to never hear 
 another filk based on a rock song at an event........cons, OTOH..)

 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
From: cozzlab@garnet.berkeley.edu
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: songs, acceptable and not.
Date: 31 Jul 92 17:22:30 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: garnet.berkeley.edu

In article <712567015.F00006@therose.pdx.com> Leonard.Erickson@f56.n105.z1.therose.pdx.com (Leonard Erickson) writes:
>
>I'm going to list some songs, and then let folks decide if these "belong" in 
>the SCA or not.
>
>Lord of the Dance (note that there are *two* tunes for this, one is "Simple
>                   Gifts", the other is better in my opinion)

I assume you mean the paganoid version that shares its subject matter with
"John Barleycorn"?  This one jars me rather, because I'm used to the
Christian version (which you'll find in the Oxford Book of Carols, no
less, and which I believe is the older version--on the grounds that the
music _is_ Simple Gifts which is, what, 1840? and neopaganism didn't come
in till much later).

But I never _objected_ to it until I heard it being sung for the ninth
time, by people too drunk to carry a tune, at one o'clock in the morning.
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: ewright@convex.com (Edward V. Wright)
Subject: Re: Rapier Combat
Organization: Engineering, CONVEX Computer Corp., Richardson, Tx., USA
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 19:57:39 GMT
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

Lothar (thomas wrentmore barnes) writes:

>Does anyone know how these (14th Century) swords were used? (ie 
>were they primarily used to thrust, or were they swung? did they 
>use draw cuts?) 

Like all swords prior to the development of the rapier, they 
were primarily used for cuts rather than thrusts.


>Does anyone have any idea of how such a sword might be adapted 
>to SCA light weapons combat? 

I doubt that it's possible.  The only fencing blades designed for
cuts as well as thrusts are sabre blades, which have never been
considered safe for use in the SCA.  I'm not sure why that is,
but I suspect it's because cuts would tend to become wild and
uncontrolled when fencing in the round instead of the line.  (This
can be a problem even with foil blades in the hands of an inexperienced
fighter.)  If you want to recreate that type of combat, your best
bet is probably to stick with rattan.


>I have a 14th century german
>persona and it would be neat to be able to fence "in persona" rather
>than adopting an alternate persona. (BTW I believe that 14th century
>garb is just as adaptable to light weapon armor standards as is 16 th c. 
> or early 17th c. garb is. 

I see no problem with that.  A 14th Century German using a rapier
is anachronistic, but no more so than a Viking facing a Crusader
on the heavy field.

-- Nicholas van Leyden

Organization: Doctoral student, Industrial Administration, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
From: haslock@fungus.zso.dec.com (Nigel Haslock)
Subject: Re: Fiacha's household proposal
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation - DECwest Engineering
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 92 00:33:44 GMT


Unto my Lord Yaakov, and all others interested in this discussion,

I will admit that it is possible for a head of household to abuse his
position. I must point out that it is also possible for a seneschal to 
abuse his position in the same manner.

One way to avoid such abuses is to make sure that all concerned know that
they have a choice. Clearly, in sparsely populated areas there will be no
choice and so, in such areas, nothing changes. In more densely populated areas,
there will be a choice and by that choice will we have the opportunity to gain.

One reason that I have heard advanced in favour of ZIP boundaries, is that it
is easy for a remote person to identify a contact. Another might be the issue
of sites. Nevertheless, I feel that we would gain by detatching groups from 
fixed boundaries.

	Fiacha
	Aquaterra, AnTir
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mfactor@taronga.com (Marco Landin)
Subject: Re: Rape, women, carrying weapons
Summary: Never been to Pennsic... How much worse than mundane danger can it be?
Organization: Taronga Park BBS
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 15:56:52 GMT

In article <1992Jul22.181209.24994@samba.oit.unc.edu>, Ann.Feeney@bbs.oit.unc.edu (Ann Feeney) writes:
> Not only that they can lead to fatalities, but if your attacker
> is bigger, srtonger, luckier, whatever, your little knife can
> quickly be used _against_ you, either as extra co-ercion, or
> as a weapon.
> 
> So in other words, they can't help, and they're very likely to get 
> not only the attacker (for whom I have little sympathy--if it's
> a question of his/her safety, I'd say carry all the knives you
> want), but the weapon is more likely to hurt you.

	WAIT WAIT WAIT WAIT WAIT!!! I am but a lowly Spaniard, and have never
been to this Paradisical SCA event called Pennsic.  Therefore, I have
become quite agitated indeed from the reverence which we as a group are
paying to the subject of rape and sexual assault there.  
	
	It's scaring me to think I have lady friends going to Pennsic!
	
	Should they be warned?  Is it really a constant concern there?  I mean,
SCA or not, we do live in the 20th century, and I'll be the first to
advocate constant vigilance against such atrocities.  1 of 3 women WILL BE
sexually assaulted in her lifetime, this is a fact.  But I thought SCA was
a bit more...er...CIVILIZED than that.
	Has there been history of rape at Pennsic before?  Even if not, I am of
the philosophy that women should be protected.  And I also agree that a
knife won't be an effective weapon against a drunken,
testosterone-overloaded heavy weapons fighter with the extension of his
sword gone out of control.  CS gas will do better.  Or how about a .9mm
round through the head.  But is it really such a danger that we have to
post so much concerning personal safety at Pennsic?
	Call me naive but I thought chivalry was alive with us, and chivalry
would mandate 40 or so armed persons POUNCING onto the lady's would be
assailant at the first sound of her screaming.  Gods help the bastard,
because I sure wouldn't.
-- 
      |                   |
       \0__,___   ___,__@/
        +  '         `  =
       / )             ( \
From: Suze.Hammond@f56.n105.z1.therose.pdx.com (Suze Hammond)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: "Once upon a Weekend" demo tape
Date: 17 Jul 92 04:55:00 GMT
Article-I.D.: therose.711615569.F00005

JM>  From: mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman)
JM>  Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
JM>  <X67yNB4w162w@micor.ocunix.on.ca> <archer.62@utkux1.utk.edu>
JM>
JM>  Greetings from Arval!
JM>
JM>  I must say that I much preferred the Wall Street Journal article on
JM>  Pennsic, which used hand-drawn portraits of the two kings, to any
JM>  video

They really did this? A Mundane newspaper was that sensitive to what we do?
Gee.... I'm really very touched!

This brings up a possibility. Our limners were complaining that scrolls were 
their only (somewhat non-period) outlet. Why not each King and Queen have 
themselves illuminated for the press? In real medieval style, as per various 
religious works or books of hours? Copy these by photographic means and use 
them as handouts to the press. Typical battle scenes could also be done, 
using the likenesses of our most prominent warriors, and since art is 
cleverer than machines, we could even have reconstructed "historic" pictures 
available of our "ancients" in their fighting prime, at their most historic 
battles. I suspect that *some* papers would like this sort of thing, 
especially in this day of colored illustration in newspapers, especially if 
the pictures were very colorful...

Moreach NicMaolain 
 
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: schuldy@progress.COM (Mark Schuldenfrei)
Subject: Re: Steward's office restructuring.
Organization: Progress Software Corp.
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 13:16:12 GMT

Lothar von Katzenellenbogen found an heraldic conflict in Reistapp's
Armorial for the SCA badge "Or, a laurel wreath vert".  He then
asked, in light of the servicemark discussion:

  "In light of this conflict I wonder if the arms of the SCA are defensible
  as a service mark at all? After all, somebody else used it before us and
  might still be using them.  Any of you legal types want to comment? :-)"

I am not a legal type (*But Officer, I'm not an illegal type either*).
Nonetheless, I think you misunderstand a little about servicemarks.  It
does not mean "This symbol is an original one, never used anywhere before,
and from now on reserved to me."

It means "This symbol is not currently in use by anyone to market a service,
or as a symbol for trade, and I now reserve the right to associate it with
my service, register it with the Government, and will use the court system
to defend this exclusive right."

In practice, if you fail to exercise due diligence and defend that right,
you lose it.  A company I once worked for used as its name someone else's
trademark.  We got a nasty letter from their attorney, telling us to desist.
Our attorney suggested we ignore the letter, until they filed suit.  He
mentioned that if they failed to file suit within a reasonable time period,
we were home free, but if we waited, we could just sign an agreement with
them, and only when we knew they were serious would we go through the
expense of changing letterhead, advertising the change, and so forth.

They never filed suit.  By now, I suspect they have lost the right to use
that term exclusively.  But, only a court case could prove it.

Any real attorneys, or competent law students out there?  (Hi Yaakov)

	Tibor (I'd be happy to be proven wrong, this is just what I
	*think* I know).
--
Mark Schuldenfrei (schuldy@progress.com)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: davel@news.arc.nasa.gov (Dave Liebreich)
Subject: Re: Residence in local branches
Organization: NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 16:11:17 GMT

Greetings unto the Rialto from David Waxthorn!

In a preivous missive, Moreach NicMaolain writes:
>
>
>As an exercise in curiosity, how would one go about querying Milpitas about
>the composition/population of one's group, and what boundaries Milpitas was
>recognizing? All this fuss I seem to have started has got my curiosity awakened.
>
>Moreach NicMaolain
>trifid@agora.rain.com
>

I do not believe that the city of Milpitas would be a productive source of
this information.  May I humbly suggest that you might have better luck
directing your query to the Registrar's office.

David

p.s. Write a letter to the Registrar - the address is on every membership
application.


=========================================================================
David Waxthorn                                  David Liebreich
Principality of the Mists                       NASA Ames Research Center
Laurel Kingdom of the West                      Moffett Field, CA

 "The opinions expressed above are not necessarily those of my liege-lord"
                           doo dah doo dah
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman)
Subject: Re: period heraldric recreation
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 18:39:54 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

Greetings from Arval!  Layamon wrote:

>     I think the idea of having heralds observing the battle from
> mount st. hellengone is a good idea. Having the herald of the losing
> king ask the winning king to name the battlefield is a good idea as
> well. If it is indeed a period practice - and _documentably_ so,
> then such an occurrence can only heighten our recreation of
> the mediaeval period.

Medieval heralds certainly observed battles and recorded the names of the
dead & of those who accomplished great feats of prowess; I believe that
Keen's _Chivalry_ mentions this practice.  The only evidence that I know of
a king naming a battlefield is in Shakespeare's _Henry V_, where Henry
names the field of Agincourt.  I wouldn't call that solid evidence.  From a
practical standpoint, it makes little sense for the winning king at Pennsic
to name the field; is it to be re-named next year?  If so, what's the
point?

>     I do have one reservation. Since the mountain in question is
> located in southern an tir...

"Mount Saint Hellangone" is one of the names given to the hill beyond the
battlefield at Pennsic.  It has also been called "Mount Eislinn" after
Duchess Eislinn the Patient.

===========================================================================
Arval Benicoeur                                       mittle@watson.ibm.com
From: Cat.Moran@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Cat Moran)
Sender: FredGate@ocitor.fidonet
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: "Once upon a Weekend" de
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1992 09:28:00

|TN> A quickie from Angharad on pictures.  Caitlin asks whether it is anyone|
|TN> business (and why they should care) whether someone takes a candid phot|
|TN> them that they will, in all likelihood, never see (or even know about).|
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+

Milord, you have most accurately paraphrased my point of view, but
then you add:

|TN> I first saw a number of SCAdians through photos ("And here's Sir So-and|
|TN> you don't know him, he used to live here, and here's Lady Thus-and-Such|
|TN> just had a kid, hasn't been traveling much, but you should meet her soo|
|TN> and ...").  We snap shots of people under circumstances when they are _|
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+

If I mean for a picture I've taken of someone to be shown to anyone
save my spouse and parents (who have access to my photos), I will
ask their permission first.  If I take a picture of you without
your permission, you can be assured that I am only interested in
the garb you are wearing, or the pavillion behind you.  Of course I
will take pictures of court, and it is difficult to ask permission
first [standing up during Sir X's knighting: "Does anyone mind if I
take a picture of this?"  :) ].  But I won't display the picture
without asking those involved.

                                Caitlin
___
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 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: archer@utkux1.utk.edu (T. Archer)
Subject: Re: Regarding Cameras at SCA events
Organization: University of Tennessee Division of Continuing Education
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 13:13:27 GMT

In article <Ja3BoB1w162w@micor.ocunix.on.ca> graydon@micor.ocunix.on.ca (Graydon) writes:

>If, on the other hand, I'm at the event to be as medieval as I can
>manage, very, very little screams 20th century quite as loudly as
>someone with a camcorder, sidling about, and being an obvious spectator.
>(By the by - odds are, the law you quoted has no application ini 
>Ealdormere...)

This is something I also have a problem with.  And cars parked in plain 
view.  And coke cans.  Can I infer that it is not the photography that you 
mind, but, like myself, the license that a camera seems to give people to be 
obtrusive?  (Nothing bugs me more at school plays, etc, than people with 
cameras who seem to think that they have a right to block other people's 
view to get a good shot.

-=-=-
T. Archer  PA142548@utkvm1.utk.edu
University of Tennessee
"Vote Dempublican, it's easier than thinking." -- Unknown
-=-=-
From: Stephen.Whitis@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Stephen Whitis)
Sender: FredGate@ocitor.fidonet
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Rape, women, carrying we
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1992 01:06:12

>sword gone out of control.  CS gas will do better.  Or how about a .9mm
>round through the head.  But is it really such a danger that we have to   
>post so much concerning personal safety at Pennsic?                       

*This* is an example of why I don't want guns in the SCA.  While I
am in no way opposed to an attempted rapist getting shot, I am well
aware that more gunshots *miss* the target than hit.  And at
Pensic, the chance that there is no-one else downrange is not
likely.

And it gets worse than that...  Suppose that, just as she shoots
him, another gentle with a gun walks up (or pokes their head out
from a tent, or whatever) and see's her shoot him.  He may well
think "She just *shot* that man!  I've got to stop her!" and start
shooting at *her*!  Or, if he is unarmed, he may rush out to grab
her and get shot himself!

I'm not opposed to the lady defending herself (quite the opposite)
but I would prefer to see it done with a knife or a can of mace
(both of which should be accomponied by a lot of loud screaming!)

Stephen of the Grove
Steppes/Ansteorra        FIDO 1:124/4229
Stephen.Whitis@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org
___
 X MegaMail 2.10 #0:CRUSADE CRUSADE CRUSADE!!!!

 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
From: Suze.Hammond@f56.n105.z1.therose.pdx.com (Suze Hammond)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Rape, women, carrying weapons
Date: 24 Jul 92 08:00:00 GMT
Article-I.D.: therose.712043902.F00015

If you carry real weapons, ANY real weapons, and don't know how to use them 
to your own best advantage, you are a *fool*.

This applies to men and women, and to guns as well as knives and other 
blades. I learned it at my Granddad's knee, when he taught me how to shoot.
He was a pioneer lad, and knew first hand that this was true.

Weapons are not toys, not really. No matter how often we call them that in 
jest, they are still weapons.

NEVER draw your weapon in a serious situation unless you are mentally and 
physically prepared for the worst. The very act of being DEAD SERIOUS about 
the weapon will often be enough to win the day, even if it should come 
down to combat, as it gives a psychological advantage. Be businesslike and 
calm, or at least do your best to appear that way.

I was once in a mundane streetfight, where this may have saved my friend's 
bacon, as the friends of the person he was having a punch-fest with were 
very unwilling to find out first hand if the angry woman with the big 
lockback knife was a serious as she seemed. Otherwise it would have been 
three on one...

(Yes, I was a bit of a nut when I was younger. I've given up the kind of 
"friends" who get you in these situations... :-)

I will add here a sobering thought. Once you commit yourself to this sort of 
action, you must be willing to see it through, even though you must accept 
the idea of being seriously wounded. We are not talking rattan and armor. If 
you aren't willing to accept this, you have no business ever considering 
*using* a weapon in a serious situation. Run get help, instead. Usually the 
best course anyway!

And ladies, be smart. Women who look as if they know where they are going, 
and are perhaps expected there (!) are statistically far less likely to be 
attacked. Almost all attackers look for opportunity, in the guise of weak or 
childlike behavior, drunkenness, or other vulnerability. Women who look like 
they might be loud or fight effectively are less often victimized, even in 
Mundania...          (In fact, this also applies to men.)

Moreach NicMaolain
trifid@agora.rain.com

Be safe, my friends... 
 
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca