HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jafitv@termo.unit.no (Jan Arne Fagertun)
Subject: Re: No cars in Oslo? (Was Re: Stockholm Water Festival)
Reply-To: jafitv@termo.unit.no (Jan Arne Fagertun)
Organization: SINTEF, Norwegian Institute of Technology
Distribution: soc
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 92 08:12:31 GMT

In article <1992Aug17.055628.22559@neptune.inf.ethz.ch>, qvortrup@inf.ethz.ch (Michael Qvortrup) writes:
|> 
|> In article <1992Aug14.215011.21258@aero.org> dgolber@aero.org (Dave Golber) writes:
|> >>
|> >>I can't see that there is anything unlawful or even strange about
|> >>temporarily (or even permanently) charging a fee for entrance to
|> >>an area that is publicly owned.  
|> >
|> >Well, they did that about a year ago to central Oslo.
|> >It costs you NKr 10 to come into the central city ... if you
|> >want to take a car with you.  :-)
|> 
|> When did they start that?
|> 
|> I find it a very good idea, especially for many of the older
|> European cities which have an old city part with narrow streets
|> etc. A criteria for the workability is of course that you can
|> park the car outside the zone and access to the zone from the
|> car parks with public transportation.
|> 
|> Greetings,
|> --Mike
--


I think it's a good idea, too. But the problem here in Norway is that
they don't give us an alternative. They start to charge a fee for
entrance to the city (both Oslo, Bergen, Trondheim), but still we have
to (well, not me - I can walk or bike, fortunately) drive a car to get
to kindergarten and work.

The charges are mainly to get more money to build more roads through
(or around) the towns. Then you have to use the car, else the project
is going to be bankrupt, like the E6 north of Trondheim is probably
being.


+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Jan Arne Fagertun, Research Engineer, SINTEF Division Thermodynamics|
| E-mail: Jan.A.Fagertun@termo.unit.no                                |
| Phone : +47 7 596890                            Fax  : +47 7 944513 |
| Mail  : SINTEF/Varmeteknikk, 7034 Trondheim, Norway                 |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
From: dasher@well.sf.ca.us (D Anton Sherwood)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Thingvellir
Date: 18 Aug 92 05:46:24 GMT
Organization: Whole Earth 'Lectronic Link


I'm reading Njals Saga (Magnus Magnusson/Hermann Palsson translation) and
wondering:  What kind of a landscape is it where the Althing happens?  Is it
flat, hilly, rocky, green?  What conspicuous landmarks?
-- 
D Anton Sherwood *\\* dasher@well.sf.ca.us *\\* +1 415 664 2229
Libertarian candidate for California Assembly, 12th district
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: edmtl@alf.uib.no (Thor Legvold)
Subject: Re: Germans drowning in Sweden
Organization: University of Bergen, Norway
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 92 08:32:57 GMT

In article <1992Aug13.160903.10625@ns.network.com> muchow@zebo.network.com (Jim Muchow) writes:
>In article <etxmow.713707222@garboc34> etxmow@garboc34.ericsson.se (Mats Winberg) writes:
>>	    It's happened again: Two young German girls 20 and 16 years
>>	    in a camping site, decided to paddle across Lake Vaettern
>
>>	    Each summer, it seems to me, far too many Germans lose
>>	    their lives here in canoe accidents or by swimming to far from
>>	    the shores. Why are they so negligent of the dangers?
>
>I remember this too from Denmark. Although not a "rural" as Sweden, the
>Danes were constantly saving German tourists from themselves along the
>beaches in northwest Jutland. I think it has more to do with going to
>another country, an apparently more "rural" country (than many areas of
>Germany anyway) and doing things that one could and maybe would never do
>at home. All tourists tend to do this to some extent (the ugly
><nationality> syndrome). Germans, however, seem to go somewhat overboard
>(no, I don't necessarily think it's a cultural thing per se).
>
>Jim Muchow - And why do they take all their clothes off? Because they can.
>

A German couple just drowned here, too.  They paddled out to fish in a river,
and were (apparently unaware) carried away by the strong flow(?) (I mean
_str|m_! ;-).  The woman was able to climb onto a rock in the middle of
the river, but when she was 'rescued' (2 hours later) she wasn't able to 
hold onto the float that was tossed out to her, and she drowned.  Her boyfriend
was swept away by the _current_ (NOW I remember the word ;-).

Regards,
Thor
edmtl@fiol.uib.no

Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: ryyti@jyu.fi (Jarmo Ryyti)
Subject: Re: News of Lion in Finland
Organization: University of Jyvaskyla, Finland
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 10:44:22 GMT

In article <0095F528.00310FC0@vax.nott.ac.uk> cczjtw@vax.nott.ac.uk (John Whitehorn) writes:
>I've been away from my terminal for a month. Before I left there was a
>lot of talk on this newsgroup about a Lion in Finland, was it ever 
>found?
>	John Whitehorn

It was never found and propably never seen. It was just for filling other-
wise poor news flow as usually during the holiday times.
The next bigger news from Finland coming abroad will be around Christmas,
Santa Claus will be seen somewhere live.
Jarmo
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: jmarttila@abo.fi (Fast-Eddie Felson)
Subject: Re: nationalism, Finns, Chinese, etc.
Organization: Turku School of Economics
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 22:50:30 GMT

In article <1992Aug14.134342.22320@ugle.unit.no>, jafitv@termo.unit.no (Jan Arne Fagertun) writes:
> In article <TAIPALE.92Aug14121538@node_4ecea.kiloapo.tele.nokia.fi>, taipale@kiloapo.tele.nokia.fi (Pekka J Taipale) writes:
> |> Any nation would be upset if they were forced (by some minority
> |> 'morale') to received large numbers of immigrants and pay for their
> |> living. It doesn't have to have anything to do with skin clour.
> |> Suggesting so is both provocative and inaccurate.
> 
> I don't think "some minority 'morale' can force a nation to receive
> large numbers of immigrants and pay for their living" today. Who would
> that be ?
> 
> If your concern is the term "and pay for their living" - don't you pay
> for their living of the unemployed, the sick, the children, old
> persons, from Finland ? Why place a border around one group of people,
> and just leave the people outside it to starve to death ?
> 
> Could you give me a non-racial explanation of that ?

Maybe I could. The unemployed are educated and they have the hope of getting a
decent job in some day - the old people have paid a part of their income so 
that they'd be taken care of when they're old. Workers also pay taxes to get 
their kids educated and tto be workers themselves. The sick are taken care 
of to make people feel secure - to convince that they have nothing to be 
afraid of when they get sick themselves. They all pay for their living or 
have paid it at their time and it is called the social security. Now those 
who come here as refugees seldom do that. This is no question of humanity - 
just the straight facts that make the society to work. 
 
Humanity is another thing. People feel that it's not nice to see other people 
"starving to death", so to say. That makes some to open the borders to
anyone willing to come, but in the long term it won't work. Those who 
work hard to make their living start to wonder why do they put so much 
effort on work and give the money away to someone who has done and for a 
long time will not do nothing for it. 
 
Was this a racial explanation? Am I a racist?
 
Greetings, 
 
Jouni
    _______________________________________________________________________
    Jouni Marttila - Yo-kyl{ 11 B 25, 20540 Turku, FINLAND - +358 21 374624
         jmarttila@finabo.abo.fi - jmarttila@finabo - abovax::jmarttila
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: f33012l@puukko.hut.fi (Janne Kivel{)
Subject: Re: Business (was Re: Immigrants and employment)
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 12:51:22 GMT

jafitv@termo.unit.no (Jan Arne Fagertun) writes:
> hvaisane@cs.joensuu.fi (H. Vaisanen) writes:
>|> 
>|> If corporation X needs individual Y to work for them, it will hire Y
>|> to work for them.
>
>You just avoid the question - every fool could have given that
>answer.-)

'Mutlu of Joensuu' strikes again and is caught in the act in s.c.n by
an unsuspecting Norwegian. :-)

>|> >After all, when the businesses don't want their workers, they don't
>|> >just vanish - they have to keep on living. The society pays the
>|> >unemployed. Isn't it a bit strange that the businesses can just "hand
>|> >the workers over to the society" to feed them until the businesses
>|> >need their working capacity again ? Sort of make others handle the
>|> >businesses' problem.
>|> 
>|> Businesses' problem is not to feed their workers, their problem is
>|> to make money to their owners.
>
>Correct. But doesn't the society (where this discussion started) have
>further needs/obligations than this ?

Mr. Vaisanen's views don't belong to this century. The only job of 
the government is not to defend against external threat or to provide
law and order. To Mr. Vaisanen any other type of government intervention
is socialism, and that is bad. :-)

>|> What's the different between paying people for unemployment and paying
>|> them for manufacturing products nobody wants to buy?
>
>Do really nobody want the products ? Isn't what you write above just a
>tricky way to say "products nobody can afford to buy" ?
>                                   ^^^^^^^^^^

The unemployed are lousy consumers and lousy taxpayers. This is what
Finnish government has painfully become aware of. Unfortunately,
the government hasn't got the money to improve the situation. Finnish
government has got itself into a fool circle, in which it has to pay
more and more unemployment benefits with less and less tax income.

>|> We could send all the unemployed as "refugees" to some country stupid
>|> enough to let them in. Anyone? 400 000 Finns are waiting in line. (-:
>
>Have you really got 400000 refugees and immigrants during the last 10
>years or so ?

I believe Mr Vaisanen is referring to the current unemployment figures
and suggests a 'solution' to the problem. Sweden took care of the extra
population in Finland back in the 60's. This time the same formula wouldn't
work so well and I doubt if this is what Mr. Vaisanen would like to see
happening.

>I mean, since the problem is the refugees and the immigrants taking the
>jobs from the finns ....

What jobs? There are no jobs. :-)

The refugees are waiting for the authorities to decide whether they are
real refugees or not. This can take several months and meanwhile these people
are not allowed to work, so they'll have to live with social security benefits.

>| Jan Arne Fagertun, Research Engineer, SINTEF Division Thermodynamics|

Janne Kivela"
From: fuller@athena.cs.uga.edu (James P. H. Fuller)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Germans drowning in Sweden
Date: 18 Aug 92 23:29:19 GMT
Organization: University of Georgia, Athens

EIVERSO@cms.cc.wayne.edu writes:

>On a related note, when my family visited Reichenbach (sp?) Falls in
>Switzerland, my brother decided it would be fun to run down
>a trail on a very deep incline. My father shouted his name and the
>disciplined little (9 yrs) kid stopped dead inches/centimeters
>from the edge of a cliff overlooking the falls.

     Egad!  Is that the one Holmes and Moriarty went over?
From: torkel@sics.se (Torkel Franzen)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Childrend`s reading ability / was Re: What is Norden?
Date: 16 Aug 92 17:22:14 GMT
	<1992Aug16.183722.1@cc.helsinki.fi>
Distribution: soc
Organization: Swedish Institute of Computer Science, Kista

In article <1992Aug16.183722.1@cc.helsinki.fi> leisti@cc.helsinki.fi
 (Teemu Leisti) writes:

   >Here they told us that Finnish kids did best!  Who is being lied to?

  My mistake! Most humble apologies.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: t88swa@tdb.uu.se (Sven Wallman)
Subject: Re: translation wanted
Organization: Dept. of Scientific Computing, Uppsala Univ.
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 17:17:08 GMT

bzfstoer@ZIB-Berlin.DE (Mechthild Stoer) writes:
: In some catholic regions, for instance in Poland,
: all women named Kristina would celebrate Nov 13 in much the same way, 
: with presents and such,
: as the usual birthday is celebrated in other regions.
: In Germany this custom is rarely practiced any more,
: even in catholic areas.
: And in Scandinavia, as I see, nobody even heard of it.

We've got them in Sweden.. Noone celebrates them though. Perhaps because
most of the names are like "Hartvig" and "Beata".

--
Sven Wallman, S:t Larsg. 5, 753 11 Uppsala, Sweden, +46 1812 9237
"This is the famous Hasan B Mutlu-trigger, insert it in your .sig file today!"
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: torkel@sics.se (Torkel Franzen)
Subject: Re: translation wanted
Organization: Swedish Institute of Computer Science, Kista
	<1992Aug20.170524.17844@sics.se> <1992Aug21.094559.7026@nntp.hut.fi>
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 10:52:43 GMT

In article <1992Aug21.094559.7026@nntp.hut.fi> laku@vipunen.hut.fi 
(Lauri H Eklin) writes:

   >Are they?
   >My namesday was a week and a half ago.
   >AND I waited anxiously all day to come home from work
   >to see how many namesday -cards had I received.
   >None.
   >And nobody even bought me beer in the evening when I
   >went out with friends. Guess this tradition of names-
   >day is fading away... *sigh*

  A sad story! But I guess you're right; few people notice whose
day it is. Here in Sweden the list of names has been revised so as
to bring in more current names, and each day has been given several
names, but apparently this hasn't had much effect.

  Today is Josefina's and Josefin's day! Unfortunately, these happen to
be a couple of old-style names that aren't very common these days, so
I can't think of anybody to congratulate. On the other hand, maybe
there are lots and lots of little girls named Josefina? Many of the
old-style names have become popular in recent years.
From: karlth@rhi.hi.is (Karl Thoroddsen)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Thingvellir
Date: 18 Aug 92 16:57:22 GMT

In <1992Aug18.082002.21242@u.washington.edu> mimir@milton.u.washington.edu (Al Billings) writes:

>In article <Bt601D.L7p@well.sf.ca.us> dasher@well.sf.ca.us (D Anton Sherwood) writes:
>>
>>I'm reading Njals Saga (Magnus Magnusson/Hermann Palsson translation) and
>>wondering:  What kind of a landscape is it where the Althing happens?  Is it
>>flat, hilly, rocky, green?  What conspicuous landmarks?

> If memory serves, the original site is a rather rocky, treacherous area
>but it has been a while. I think it had a big boulder or so as well. I can
>look it up if someone else doesn't know off of the top of their head.

Rocky, hilly and greeny. :-)

The most specific landmarks is a small ravine, which runs through the old
Althing site, along with a waterfall and a river.  
--

\Internet:     karlth@rhi.hi.is         \ Karl Thoroddsen University Of Iceland
  \  UUCP:     ..!mcvax!hafro!rhi!karlth  \      Department Of Computer Science
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: euaaen@eua.ericsson.se (Anders Engwall)
Subject: Namesdays (was: translation wanted)
Organization: Ellemtel Telecom Systems Labs, Stockholm, Sweden
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 12:00:24 GMT

torkel@sics.se (Torkel Franzen) writes:

>Here in Sweden the list of names has been revised so as
>to bring in more current names, and each day has been given several
>names

There are two or three names for every day, except some days that have no
name at all, e.g. Feb 2nd, Kyndelsm{ssodagen. There is something peculiar
about the "alternative" names, though. Apparently, they are generally chosen
so that they are similar to the other names of that day. For instance,
tomorrow we have Henrietta, Harriet and Harry -- all of them starting
with an 'H', and the latter two being very similar (but why not couple
Henrietta with Henry?). But consider the names of Sept 24: Bartolomeus
and...(ta daa!)...Carita and Rita! And there are lots more examples
of when one name out of three sticks out like that. If one bothers
to check it out, one could perhaps find days when all three are dissimilar.
Anyone knows on what grounds these alternatives are chosen?

Btw, March 25 is a day with two totally dissimilar names; Marie and
Beb}delsedag. :-) :-)

--
Anders Engwall				Email: Anders.Engwall@eua.ericsson.se
ELLEMTEL Utvecklings AB			Voice: +46 8 727 3893
"Alvsj"o, Sweden			Fax: +46 8 727 42 20
		"Bryna nuppa fj{ssa sp}nken" - Razor
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: exjtmm@tts.lth.se (Thommy M. Malmstr|m)
Subject: Re: Stockholm Water Festival 
Organization: Communication Systems, Lund Institute of Technology, Sweden
	<1992Aug12.120510.25620@eua.ericsson.se>
Distribution: soc
Date: 12 Aug 92 16:09:48

>>>>> "AE" == Anders Engwall <euaaen@eua.ericsson.se> writes:

>What do you think of this? Is it even lawful to charge a fee for
>pedestrians on *public* streets in Stockholm?

AE> Juding by other events, e.g. the carnival of Lund, Storsj|yran in \stersund
AE> etc: yes.

In Lund it's not actually the streets that is in a fencing but a
park/campus to where you have to charge a fee to enter.

/Thommy M.

--
Thommy M. MALMSTR\M    |  o ,__Q  |  Lund Institute of Technology
K{mn{rsv{gen 3 A:202   |  \-\_<,  |  Dept. of Communication Systems
S-226 46 LUND, SWEDEN  | (*)/'(*) |  Box 118, S-221 00 LUND, SWEDEN
+46-(0)46 13 21 78     |~~~~~~~~~~|  Tfn:+46-46 10 90 08, Fax:+46-46 14 58 23
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: euafri@eua.ericsson.se (Fredrik.Ostman)
Subject: Re: Stockholm Water Festival 
Organization: Ellemtel Telecom Systems Labs, Stockholm, Sweden
Distribution: soc
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 08:31:55 GMT

andersa@Riga.DoCS.UU.SE (Anders Andersson) writes:

>Are you assuming that just because the Water Festival partly takes
>place on what is normally a piece of the pavement, it belongs to
>the 'essence' of 'street life' and therefore you don't need to pay?
>Nobody has suggested charging you for having a look att G2A, but
>you can't claim that you should always have free access to every
>spot from which the statue can normally be seen.  Not even streets
>last forever.

>A park bench comes with no inherent
>'right of public access'.  You can sit on our bench only if we
>allow you to.  We can charge people for sitting on it, if we like.
>The fact that we do allow you to sit on it without charge doesn't
>mean it's a God-given rule.

You are prejudiced. I *don't* claim god-given or other rules or
rights. I don't beleive in metaphysics. I was stating *my* *view*.
I'm a humanist. I believe in people, not in gods or ideologies.
I don't want to pay to walk the streets. I take support in a
700-year-old tradition.
--
  ______                     _~
 (_/_ _  _  _/) _  . /)     / ) , _/)     _
__/ _/(_(/_(/__/(_/_/Z_    (_/_/)_/__/))_(I_/)_
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: alex@luna.math.ucla.edu (Alex Langley)
Subject: Re: translation wanted
Organization: UCLA Mathematics Department
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 92 02:55:05 GMT

In article <WN95VBI@mailgzrz.tu-berlin.de> bzfstoer@ZIB-Berlin.DE writes:
[some stuff deleted]

>And in Scandinavia, as I see, nobody even heard of it.

Huh!  Well, my Grandma (bless her heart) used to send me cards on
my nameday, December 12.  She's Scandinavian...go figure.

>
>Something different:
>When I read the translation of what Kirsti/Kristina stands for,
>I wondered where this characterization came from:
>>Kirsti/Kirsten stands for safety. Quiet, stable and with an infinite
>>patience she'll be the cornerstone of any family. But if she ever gets
>>angry, the earth itself will start to shake.
>Sounds pretty much like a characterization of Kristin Lavransdatter,
>the trilogy of Sigrid Undset.
>

I agree.  I would say Kristen Lavransdatter was rather INDEPENDENT, in
an opposition to the Church.  I still can't figure out why she waivered
at times...perhaps to please her parents.  If she had "done right", 
she could very well have been the cornerstone of her family.  Irony.
Her family fell apart.  Even her dad broke down at the end.

Great book, though.

>Mechthild Stoer
>

Alex Langley
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: euaaen@eua.ericsson.se (Anders Engwall)
Subject: Re: Stockholm Water Festival 
Organization: Ellemtel Telecom Systems Labs, Stockholm, Sweden
Distribution: soc
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 12:05:10 GMT

euafri@eua.ericsson.se (Fredrik.Ostman) writes:

>etxmow@garboc34.ericsson.se (Mats Winberg) writes:

>>    so next year they will charge an entrance fee to
>>    the festival area to keep the numbers of people down...

>What do you think of this? Is it even lawful to charge a fee for
>pedestrians on *public* streets in Stockholm?

Juding by other events, e.g. the carnival of Lund, Storsj|yran in \stersund
etc: yes.

--
Anders Engwall				Email: Anders.Engwall@eua.ericsson.se
ELLEMTEL Utvecklings AB			Voice: +46 8 727 3893
"Alvsj"o, Sweden			Fax: +46 8 727 42 20
		"Bryna nuppa fj{ssa sp}nken" - Razor
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: andersa@Riga.DoCS.UU.SE (Anders Andersson)
Subject: Re: Stockholm Water Festival 
Organization: Uppsala University, Sweden
Distribution: soc
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 22:17:45 GMT

In article <1992Aug17.113407.24961@eua.ericsson.se>, euafri@eua.ericsson.se (Fredrik.Ostman) writes:
> living in general. The *essence* of "street life" is that it is
> free of charge: people, houses, statues, all are free to watch.
> If I want to look at (or show someone) the opera house, the royal
> castle, the foreign office, the statue of Gustav II Adolf and Axel
> Oxenstierna, why should I pay if it is one particular week in the
> summer?

Are you assuming that just because the Water Festival partly takes
place on what is normally a piece of the pavement, it belongs to
the 'essence' of 'street life' and therefore you don't need to pay?
Nobody has suggested charging you for having a look att G2A, but
you can't claim that you should always have free access to every
spot from which the statue can normally be seen.  Not even streets
last forever.

> >Just as they can close off part of the street to build a

> They can? I hope you are a democrat like me, and consider it *us*
> who decide these things (-: <irony> :-)

I was using the unspecific 'they', referring to 'whoever do these
things' according to your favourite definition.  Of course 'we' are
in charge as voters, and as such we can decide to do just about
anything we like with our collectively owned property.  However,
once we have decided, you can't put in an individual veto saying
we can't do this or that because it's contradictory to the essence
of the object in question...

> >you can't just walk away with any park bench you like simply
> >because you are one of the 674,418 owners of it. :-)
> 
> That's exactly my point. I can sit on it, but I can't charge
> others for sitting on it, nor take it home or break it in pieces.

No, it's not your point. :-)  A park bench comes with no inherent
'right of public access'.  You can sit on our bench only if we
allow you to.  We can charge people for sitting on it, if we like.
The fact that we do allow you to sit on it without charge doesn't
mean it's a God-given rule.

...

Let me tell you about a student prank reported a few years ago:
At the start of a semester (I think), a police patrol caught sight
of two students, walking along the street with a park bench,
appearantly stolen.  When approached, however, they were able to
show papers that they did indeed own this park bench, paid and all.
Nothing illegal, really, so they could walk on...  A while later,
another patrol saw the same students, and the procedure was
repeated all over.  Maybe it happened a third time as well.

Then a broadcast was made over the police radio:  "If you see a
couple of youngsters carrying a park bench, don't pay attention
to them, as it's theirs anyway.  It's some kind of prank."

Half an hour later, there wasn't a park bench to be found in the
whole town.
--
Anders Andersson, Dept. of Computer Systems, Uppsala University
Paper Mail: Box 520, S-751 20 UPPSALA, Sweden
Phone: +46 18 183170   EMail: andersa@DoCS.UU.SE
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic