From: dgraham@bmers30.bnr.ca (Douglas Graham)
Subject: Re: THE MIND OF THE BIBLE BELIEVER
Organization: Bell-Northern Research, Ottawa, Canada
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 93 03:36:31 GMT

In article <1993Jan13.014924.23060@cs.yale.edu> rescorla@rtnmr.chem.yale.edu (Eric Rescorla) writes:
>In article <1993Jan13.010409.12615@bmerh85.bnr.ca> dgraham@bmers30.bnr.ca (Douglas Graham) writes:
>>In article <1993Jan12.234915.21969@cs.yale.edu> rescorla@rtnmr.chem.yale.edu (Eric Rescorla) writes:
>>>In article <1993Jan12.212544.8542@bmerh85.bnr.ca> dgraham@bmers30.bnr.ca (Douglas Graham) writes:
>>>>In article <1993Jan12.172957.18493@cs.yale.edu> rescorla@rtnmr.chem.yale.edu (Eric Rescorla) writes:
>>>>>Ms. Mausmann could start by showing that there was a higher rate
>>>>>of mental illness among Christians.
>>>>
>>>>Does anybody around here actually bother to read and think
>>>>about some of the more interesting articles posted here?
>>>
>>>I try to. I followed this thread back as far as my expire
>>>time permits. I found at least one original argument by Ms.
>>>Hausman where she made this assertion. It still sounds
>>>like bullshit to me. And I'd still like to see proof.
>>
>>I don't think you're ever going to see proof of any kind.
>
>Neither do I. Me, I suspect it's because the assertion is
>complete bullshit. But that's just the skeptic talking.

Eric, there is more to skepticism than simply writing everything
off as bullshit.  There really is a reality out there, and
it is sometimes possible to discover bits and peices of it
if you look hard enough.  It's always wise to keep in mind
that anything you think you know might be false, but on
the other hand, if you start looking at the world from the
right vantage point, a lot of things will start clicking into place.
Maybe your epiphany will come someday.  Sorry, I know I
probably sound condescending, but that's because I'm getting
real fed up with the blindness and stupidity that pervades
this pathetic planet.

>>  I'd imagine
>>that any study which unambiguously showed that Xianity makes people crazy
>>would either be hushed up, marginalized, or drowned in a sea of babble.
>
>Well, geez.
>It's my opinion that atheism makes people stupid, but any
>study that showed that would have been hushed up by the atheist
>psychologists who run the peer review system. Conspiracy theories
>are so nice when one doesn't have any evidence, aren't they?

Yep, we could argue endlessly over conspiracy theories and lots
of other bunk, and never get anywhere.  Similarly, we can carry on
long threads about whether or not babies can feel pain, and never
get anywhere.  Or we could participate in thousand year long debates
about whether or not the gods exist, and never get anywhere.
Sooner or later though, we ought to form a tentative hypothesis
about how the world really works, and then see how well the facts
fit.

>>Plus the fact that on this wacked out planet, unanimous agreement on what
>>constitutes mental illness would probably be impossible.
>
>Quite true, but that just makes Ms. Hausmann's assertion even
>more silly. (I.e. it's not only unsubstantiated, but also
>meaningless.)

No, it doesn't.  I didn't say that there was no such thing as sanity.
It's just that it is unlikely that the insane majority is going to concede
that it is insane.

>>  Me, I think
>>that Xianity *is* a mental illness, because it causes its adherents to
>>lose contact with reality.  Its doctrines, such as those pertaining to
>>sex, only add fuel to the fire.
>I'm sure they'd say the same thing about atheism.

Yes, and many would say that the earth is 6000 years old.  So what?
Fortunately, there are better ways of determining truth than by yelling
our prejudices at each other.

>>>>Like, for example, Stephen Doe's _THE MIND OF THE BIBLE BELIEVER_
>>>>series, from which this thread's title originated?
>>>It's expired at my site. I just turned on news a couple days ago.
>>>Ms. Hausman's article contains no reference to that one.
>
>>I'll email it to you if you wish.
>
>Is it worth it?

Of course not.

>I'm quite prepared to believe that there are quite a few lunatic
>Christians. Remember, there are a lot more Christians than atheists,
>so you're likely to see more loony toons.

You have no urge to start looking for patterns?

>There are, though, quite a few things that are generally agreed
>upon to be mental illness (e.g. manic depression, schizophrenia,
>MPD, etc.) It would be interesting(though of course not conclusive)
>to see if the incidence of these was higher among Xians.

The question is: where do you look for incidences of these illnesses?
Are you only going to count people who have been diagnosed, or can
we include those who think that the universe is populated with gods
and demons as being perhaps schizophrenic?

>If it's
>not, it would make the case that Xianity caused mental illness
>seem rather weak, though, unless you can identify an unambiguous
>class of pathology which does seem to have a higher incidence
>among Xians.

Here again, even if we could get accurate numbers, we'd still have
a problem.  I remember seeing an article in the paper a while back
where a psychologist claimed that being depressed is healthy, and
that happy people are ill.  He recommended that happy people seek
treatment, but also pointed out that it is unlikely that happy people
would be willing to undergo treatment to make them more depressed.
This is something I agree with 100%.  After all, life is tragic and
this world is a pretty shitty place, and getting worse daily.
There really isn't much to be happy about.  But some people pump
themselves up on their illusions, thereby blinding themselves to
the tragedy that is life.  Thus, they can sometimes appear to happier
than those who are firmly grounded in reality.  The current consensus
in the mental health industry is probably that those who appear happy
are more sane than those who don't, even if they achieve their
putative happiness by deluding themselves.  This may only apply
if the delusion has been renamed "religion."

>>>                        Don't believe anything you hear.
>>
>>Exactly.  This is why I don't put much stock in statistics.
>>I'm sure that if you asked them to, the tobacco industry could
>>still provide statistics showing that smoking has no adverse
>>affect on health.
>
>Yes, but I also suspect you would find that they had some
>sort of sampling error.

Or that they were lying through their teeth.

>Given that you seem to believe
>statistics to be malleable, it strikes me that it doesn't
>do much for the case that Xianity leads to pathology that
>you can't produce any statistics to back it up. I can certainly
>produce many to show that tobacco smoking leads to pathology.

Now you can.  But that's only after a long battle with
the tobacco industry.  People were dying at the same rate
in the 1950's from tobacco, but can you find many studies
from that period?

>> I think you're going to have to study a bit
>>of psychology to get to the bottom of this Xianity business.  Me,
>>I'm no expert in psychology, but it doesn't seem to me that it
>>takes much of a genius to figure out that, for example, scaring
>>the shit out of people with tales of the eternal fires of hell,
>>is going to lead to some pretty screwed up people.
>
>I'm always mistrustful of this sort of reasoning.
>You can engage in all the armchair theorizing you want to,
>but psychology is far from having good deterministic theories.

Ignore it at your peril.  You're being psychologically manipulated
every day, say by watching emotive commercials on television.
The more psychology you know, the better chance you have to
protect yourself against this manipulation.

>Sure, it seems like a reasonable sort of guess that Xianity
>will lead to screwed up people, but that doesn't mean that
>it DOES. I'm sure I could make up stories why atheism would
>lead to screwed up people too, if I chose.

Well, I'll leave you to your skepticism then.
--
Doug Graham         dgraham@bnr.ca         My opinions are my own.
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc