HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jac@ds8.scri.fsu.edu (Jim Carr)
Newsgroups: rec.skiing
Subject: Vail (was Re: Deer Valley and Park City)
Date: 8 Sep 92 22:36:27 GMT
Reply-To: jac@ds8.scri.fsu.edu (Jim Carr)
Distribution: usa
Organization: SCRI, Florida State University

>I am a beginning skiier and I just planned my first ski vacation ever,
>to Vail the week before Christmas.  After researching the resorts
>carefully elsewhere and deciding Vail had the most to offer me,
>reading here tons of sarcastic remarks about Vail has me wondering if

Ignore sarcastic remarks.  Vail is an extremely large resort that always 
rates high on the surveys run by ski mags (mainly because it is so large 
that all ski mag readers have been there, and people vote for places 
they have been to and enjoyed) but Vail (1) was a sheep ranch rather than 
a mining town so it lacks a certain ambience and (2) does not have the 
radical expert terrain desired by the better skiers.  You will not see 
maniacs jumping cliffs or skiing 6-foot-wide couloirs like you will 
see on a good day at Squaw Valley, for example.  Finally, rec.skiing 
subscribes to the "1 million skiers can't be right" philosophy. 

>I made the right choice.  I have heard it is crowded, but will that be
>made up for by the fact that the runs are wide and more intermediate?
>Am I going to run into hordes of rec.skiing nerds?

Now, I only skied it once, and then with my cousin "there is a gap 
in the ropes, lets try this one" in the lead to all his favorite 
expert runs in the bowls.  I saw little of the front part of the 
mountain and can tell you nothing about what might be good but 
underused.  Best advice is the usual; plan to ski when everyone 
else is eating lunch or still in bed from the night before. 

The runs, with some exceptions, are not crowded to the point of 
a high probability of collision.  Vail is very big.  The problem 
is with lift lines on the more popular intermediate runs.  Pay 
attention to the big signs that tell you which lifts have more 
than a 20 minute wait and plan your day accordingly.

>And if I can prevail [sic] upon someone's last shred of sincerity, are
>there any tips (or edges) I should know about skiing Vail?

A lot of the acreage is on the back, in the bowls.  Some big parts of 
China Bowl are blue runs, and were quite popular on the weekday we 
visited.  There was a 15 to 20 minute lift line as a result.  It 
could be that some of the outlying areas (away from the main routes 
up from "town") offer short lines, but we never explored them. 

--
J. A. Carr                                    |  "The New Frontier of which I  
jac@gw.scri.fsu.edu                           |  speak is not a set of promises
Florida State University  B-186               |  -- it is a set of challenges."
Supercomputer Computations Research Institute |   John F. Kennedy (15 July 60)
Newsgroups: rec.skiing
From: grant@clarinet.com (Grant Robinson)
Subject: Re: Danged Responsibility Code
Organization: ClariNet Communications Corp.
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 18:21:30 GMT

In article <10709@sun13.scri.fsu.edu> jac@ds8.scri.fsu.edu (Jim Carr) writes:
>In article <1992Sep11.190736.18461@clarinet.com> grant@clarinet.com (Grant Robinson) writes:
>>
>>To be honest, I would not call anyone who has a problem with 
>>"unpredictable beginners" advanced, let alone an expert.
>
>There are many things an "unpredictable beginner" can do that leave you 
>with no 'out'.  I would classify such a skier on overly advanced terrain 
>as the least of your worries, since that risk is easy to spot.  My uncle 
>had his knee blown out by an accident that occured while he was turning 
>to stop in a lift line when he was hit from the side by a young girl who 
>had lost control.  When you are well within your comfort zone, do you 
>look over your shoulder with every turn?  No way.  Not that the Resp.Code 
>will help much either ... she was not out of control on purpose, but it 
>is the kind of thing that fits in the "unpredictable beginner" area.   

And when you're driving home, when do you stop looking around?  Two blocks
from home?  One block from home?  I hope I'm not around when you're well
within you comfort zone and are about to pull into your driveway. :)

A good skier is aware that accidents can happen anywhere, anytime, up to
and including on the steps of the lodge, or on the wet floor of the washroom.
Ironically it's perhaps beacuse by the time you've become good, you've
fallen enough to realize the fine line between balance and a good
thumping.

On the other hand there will always be freak or unpreventable accidents in
any sport, but if they are truly unpreventable, then by definition they
have nothing whatsoever to do with ability level.

To keep this from being totally useless diatrabe, I'll try to provide a
real life example of accident prevention (or rather knee-saving).  One of
the worst spots to be caught by a wipeout is in a lift line, because
there's little room to manoeuvre, and no vertical escape. Some one came
sliding into towards us, and we stuck out ski poles out to make a barrier.
Happy ending.  We were lucky, if he'd hit the poles wrong there might have
been a broken collarbone, but they tend to heal faster and more permanently
than knees.
-- 
Grant Robinson -- ClariNet Communications Corp, Sunnyvale, CA (408)-296-0366
From: kde@boi.hp.com (Keith Emmen)
Newsgroups: rec.skiing
Subject: Re: Danged Responsibility Code
Date: 11 Sep 92 22:17:45 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard / Boise, Idaho
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1scd1 PL4

: |> 
: |> And if you're stopped, and are not aware of what's going on above you (and
: |> ready to get out of the way if necessary), then you're not an expert skier.
: |> 

I don't know about being an expert or not, but if you are stopped and are
not aware of what's going on above you, then you are in the wrong as much
as the person who hits you.

It's like standing in the middle of the road with your back to traffic.
One of the most dangerous things you can do on a run is not keep track
what's happening above you.

Keith (seen 'em get hit, and hauled 'em off in a sled) Emmen
Newsgroups: rec.skiing
From: mr@delfin.com (Mark Rosenberg)
Subject: High Tech Tele Boots
Reply-To: mark@delfin.com
Organization: Delfin Systems, Sunnyvale CA
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 16:47:28 GMT

Anyone seen or skiied the new all plastic tele boots that were briefly
mentioned in Powder?
Newsgroups: rec.skiing
From: eugene@wilbur.nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya)
Subject: Re: Knee surgery
Organization: NAS, NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 92 20:58:02 GMT

>This and Eugene's posts are very accurate, very good.
>your mileage WILL vary, but you knew that, right?

Hey, would I lie? 8^) Trust me.  [I own an Isuzu (I listened to Joe I.).]

>In short, you probably have NOTHING to worry about.  You DID get a second
>opinion, right?  Anybody who says "cut" should be checked up on with at
>*least* one other qualified professional, IMHO.

I sometimes worry about medical adsolutes given in ALL-CAPS.
Don't view the Woody Allen movie Sleeper before hand.

Didn't Sleeper have a scene near Vail?  [I know about NCAR.]

	"I would never administer a drug I had not taken myself."
				--Chris Chandler, MD, 1976 Everest Exp.

--eugene miya, NASA Ames Research Center, eugene@orville.nas.nasa.gov
  Resident Cynic, Rock of Ages Home for Retired Hackers
  {uunet,mailrus,other gateways}!ames!eugene
Second Favorite email message: Returned mail: Cannot send message for 3 days
A Ref: Mathematics and Plausible Reasoning, vol. 1, G. Polya
From: glenb@hpnmdla.sr.hp.com (Glen Baker)
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 23:32:26 GMT
Subject: rec.skiing FAQ 04/13
Organization: What, me? Organized?
From: pams@triton.unm.edu (Roost)
Subject: Re: You have to fall to learn?
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 92 03:34:27 GMT
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque

In article <2qzn9pa@quantum.on.ca> eric@quantum.on.ca (Eric Johnson) writes:
>>>In <14599@auspex-gw.auspex.com> johnf@Auspex.COM (John Fereira) writes:
>(stuff deleted)
>> He said, "If you don't fall, you aren't learning".  This is also
>           ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> true for skiing.  You have to challenge yourself, and fall as a result. 
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>I keep hearing this from all sorts of people. Its one of those truisms which 
>I feel is quite false. You may have to make mistakes to learn. Those mistakes
>do not have to result in falls to learn. I have been downhill skiing for only 
>two years, rarely fall (i.e. maybe three times a year or so I will fall, and I
>have lost equipment only once when I made a mistake in deep powder resulting
>in one of my skis coming off), and have _definitely_ improved.

I remember when I had only been skiing for two years- - - I definitely fell
more than 3 times a year- - - BUT I also felt that I was quite good because
I could "ski" down almost anything.  I feel that a big change in a person's 
skiing takes place when he/she stops trying to just get down any and all runs 
and starts being very concerned about the way he/she looks while skiing down 
the run.  I guarantee that when you are trying to perfect your form and ski
with style and grace. . . you will fall!  That is one of the hardest things
to overcome... knowing you can get down a run without a crash but crashing 
because you are trying to have good form at the same time.  IMHO, it is the
only way to get better though! 

(Only two more months of motorcycle racing  >|(  BUT then its time to ski 
 >|)  . . .  Its great to be a multi-sport kind of guy!!!)
                                                                   Taos #1
[_*][*][_*][*][_*][*][_*][*][_*][*][_*][*][_*][*][_*][*][_*][*][_*][*][_*][*][_*][*][_*][*]
      ___	       _     David P. Lawrence
     /   )            //     Computer Engineer  BDM International, Inc.
    /   /  __     . _(/	     Albuquerque, New Mexico
   /__/(__(_(_\/_/_(_)\_	"The meek will inherit the earth. . .
                                 The rest of us will go to the stars!"  OMNI
[*][_*][*][_*][*][_*][*][_*][*][_*][*][_*][*][_*][*][_*][*][_*][*][_*][*][_*][*][_*][*][_*]
From: eugene@wilbur.nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya)
Newsgroups: rec.skiing
Subject: Squaw: Snow Conditions 9/14/92
Date: 14 Sep 92 21:20:10 GMT
Organization: NAS, NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA

Depth: 0
New Snow: 0
Temp: 68F
Date: 9/12/92, Time: 16:00 PDT
Elevation Obs.: 6300 ft.
Weather conditions: Clean, sunny.
Wind: Trace. W.
Lift Lines: none
Traffic: Typical summer weekend
X-C ski wax: Pine tar
Avalanche hazard: None
Fire hazard: Moderate-High

Ditto: Alpine, Sugar Bowl, Donner Ski Ranch, etc.

--eugene miya, NASA Ames Research Center, eugene@orville.nas.nasa.gov
  Resident Cynic, Rock of Ages Home for Retired Hackers
  {uunet,mailrus,other gateways}!ames!eugene
Second Favorite email message: Returned mail: Cannot send message for 3 days
A Ref: Mathematics and Plausible Reasoning, vol. 1, G. Polya
From: johnf@Auspex.COM (John Fereira)
Newsgroups: rec.skiing
Subject: Re: Flat Light (was: Begginer deals)
Date: 11 Sep 92 00:37:44 GMT
Organization: Auspex Systems, Inc.

So far I've seen several references to skiing in whiteouts (I've been in
the same situation that the poster from Scotland described and it's scary)
and a brief discussion about technique but I've got something to add.  

It's really easy and will help when skiing in flat light or heavy snow. 
Don't ski down the middle of the run.  Stay off the the right or left near
the trees.  They'll give you more perspective on what the terrain is doing.

Get good goggles!

Better yet,  when it starts snowing stay inside.  Yea, that's it.  You don`t
want to be out there when it's snowing. It's dangerous. Yea.

-- 
+==========================================================================+
| John Fereira     | Auspex Systems | "Auspex does not share my opinions.  |
| johnf@auspex.com | Santa Clara CA |  So Why am I still working here?"    |
+==========================================================================+
Newsgroups: rec.skiing
From: wilde@cs.colorado.edu (Nick Wilde)
Subject: Re: Beginner/Black Diamond runs
Followup-To: rec.skiing
Organization: Just enough to get by...
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 03:58:02 GMT

In article <yury.02wy@bknight.jpr.com>, yury@bknight.jpr.com (Yury German)
wrote:

> It just happens that on a black diamond in Vermont (@ Mt. Snow) a black
> dimond with sever Icing condition was filled with beggineers. I had a few
> of them cut in front of me by doing the side to side wiggle. I purposly
> would take the powder at one of the sides... and one of the begginers
> would manage to go write across my path write in front of me! One of them
> even decided to knock me down. The excuse was... SORRY I AM NOT SUCH A
> GOOD SKIIER!!!

"Honestly officer, I was just driving down the highway minding my
business when this telephone pole jumped right out in front of me.."

From the "Skier Responsibility Code", written on just about every
trail map I've ever looked at:

1. Ski in control, and in such a manner that you can stop and avoid
other skiers and objects.

2. When skiing downhill or overtaking another skier, you must avoid 
the skier below you.

------------------------------------------------------------------
      Nick Wilde         |  "The truth is rarely pure and
 wilde@cs.colorado.edu   |          never simple"  - Oscar Wilde
Newsgroups: rec.skiing
From: harsant@headplant.trl.OZ.AU (Dave Harsant)
Subject: Re: Danged Responsibility Code
Organization: Telecom Research Labs,Melbourne, Australia
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 03:02:21 GMT

I agree with the posters who have said that beginners and intermediates
skiing advanced slopes can be a nuisance, even occasionally dangerous.
They do lots of traverses, getting in the way and stuffing up the
bumps.  They stop in your line. They don't look up before taking off.
They get out of control. They cut you off.  They should be banned.

Hang on.  I was a beginner once.  I can remember running into someone
occasionally when I thought I was in control.  I could only learn to
ski advanced slopes by actually skiing on them.  The same goes for all
skiers.  You can't learn to ski in a classroom, you have to go out and
do it.

My attitude is that, as at least one poster has said, you have to be
aware of what is going on around you.  If the slope is crowded, adjust
your skiing appropriately.  You can't ski as fast, or as wildly, as you
may like.  It is frustrating having beginners on advanced slopes, but
they still need to try these things.  If they are there, you know they
are likely to lose control occasionally or suddenly turn left when all
indications were that they would turn right.

Actually, what really gets me annoyed is advanced skiers, who should by
now know better, taking off without looking up, or stopping to rest in
the best line of that bump run I have been waiting to ski.

Of course, advanced skiers often scare the hell out of beginners on the
easy trails when whizzing by quite safely.  These things can work both
ways.

I also have a question.  If a skier takes off without looking up hill,
and is hit by someone coming downhill, who is at fault?  I was
discussing this with a friend who claims the uphill skier is completely
at fault, but I disagree.  My interpretation of the Skier's
Responsibility Code (to say nothing of basic courtesy) is that you
should give way when taking off.  So depending on the circumstances,
either or both could be at fault.

Oh yeah, we had another 15cm or so of frsh snow over the weekend.
Visibility was poor (whiteout at the summit), but the snow was great.
Mt. Buller is due to close on October 11th.  :-)

--
Dave Harsant,
Telecom Australia Research Laboratories  |  d.harsant@trl.oz.au
From: kde@boi.hp.com (Keith Emmen)
Newsgroups: rec.skiing
Subject: Re: FAQ error: Closed Areas
Date: 10 Sep 92 20:10:15 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard / Boise, Idaho
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1scd1 PL4

> 
>    On many mountains the area out of bounds is considered a closed area.
> 
>    On other mountains, and in other states, out of bounds may *not* be
>    closed.
> 
>    On still some other mountains the boundry areas may be closed sometimes
>    and open at others.
> 

Our local ski area is bordered on all sides by national forest land, and
according to our Area Management, the patrol or area management *cannot*
prevent you from crossing into national forest land.

We (the patrol) tell people that they can't ski out of bounds, but if they
want to we cannot stop them. Nor can we prosecute them.  We (the area) are
*not* obligated to go get them if they get lost or hurt.
From: glenb@hpnmdla.sr.hp.com (Glen Baker)
Newsgroups: rec.skiing
Subject: Re: Begginer deals (was Re: Need Tahoe Suggestions)
Date: 8 Sep 92 17:27:20 GMT
Organization: What, me? Organized?

In rec.skiing, carlson@dwp.la.ca.us (Carlson Peters x7898) writes:

>> Every area will welcome you, and your checkbook, with open cash-boxes, 
>> er, arms. Further, I suspect you'll be well "cared for" at any area.

> A typical response from a hard core squawskivite.  

 Well, I'll certainly admit to the "squawskivite" part (cool phrase by 
 the way...hadn't heard that one!), but I really wasn't trying to say
 that Squaw, or any other large area, are not *necessarilly* a bad place 
 to start. 

In another post Carlson writes:

> no, bad choice.  All beginners go to squaw.  Its bigger, it MUST be
> better.

 My only point is that just as bigger does *not* imply better, neither
 does it imply worse. I tend to use Squaw as an example simply because
 I am, er, somewhat familiar with the area :-)

> If it is snowing [Squaw is] a rotten place to learn though.  Wind and
> flat light are a beginner's worst enemy. 

 This is a good point. Squaw is particularly exposed to storms and 
 definately is *not* a good place for a beginner under those condiditons.

> Last year they had a 2 adult, 2 children weekend lift ticket special 
> for $60.  Try matching that at squaw.

 Sigh. It wasn't meant to be a contest. If it helps, I'll state it 
 explicitly: Squaw looses this one hands down.

>> ..glen

> Is this the glen that is a patroller at squaw? I can only say that in
> politics they would call this a clear case of conflict of interest.

 Well, yeah...that's me! Conflict of interest? How? I'm not trying to 
 tell anybody that they need to come to Squaw...heck, Squaw can't
 hold a candle to, well, say ....Vail. Yeah. 

 ..glen
From: glenb@hpnmdla.sr.hp.com (Glen Baker)
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 23:32:28 GMT
Subject: rec.skiing FAQ 09/13
Organization: What, me? Organized?
Newsgroups: rec.skiing

Does anyone know when/where CSU (Colorado State) and UNC (Northern Colorado)
are having their ski swaps????  If I have equipment to sell/trade is there
someone I need to contact before I show up???

Thanks
- Galen -
galenr@hpgrla.gr.hp.com

Newsgroups: rec.skiing
From: george@windslc.seri.gov (George Scott)
Subject: Re: pinhead.wannabe.postulant
Reply-To: george@windslc.nrel.gov
Organization: Colorado State Reformatory for Young Hussies and Trollops
Distribution: na
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 16:17:02 GMT

>I believe someone suggested that wooden un-edged skis were perfectly
>adequate.  This may be so, 

Well, here we go again. It ISN'T so. Wooden un-edged skis are totally
inadequate for telemark skiing as we know it today. I'm always amazed at

#set GROSS_GENERALIZATION_MODE ON

how alpine skiers always want to have the latest equipment, since last years
is totally out of date
but
many nordic skiers seem to believe that gear that was state-of-the-art in
1970 is just as good or better than what's made today. 

#set GROSS_GENERALIZATION_MODE OFF

Nordic gear has changed far more in the last 20 years than has alpine gear. 
Furthermore, the whole sport of telemark skiing as practiced now didn't 
exist 15 years ago. (I think it was 1979 when I first took my Trucker Light
Edges to the local downhill area. I overheard somebody saying "Look at that
guy on the jumping skis.") Once you learn to tele on a modern tele ski, you
can use your technique to do a passable imitation of a tele on almost any
free-heel gear, but why handicap yourself by trying to learn on inadequate
stuff?

BTW, another tele gear tip while we're on the subject of using XC gear for
tele skiing: If you're just area skiing (riding the lift), don't use your
XC poles - they're way too long and often not strong enough. Use alpine poles
in your usual alpine length.

-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
George N. Scott                         EMAIL: george@nrel.gov
Wind Research Program (formerly SERI)   VOICE: 303-231-7667
National Renewable Energy Laboratory    1617 Cole Blvd., Golden, CO  80401-3393
Newsgroups: rec.skiing
From: cloyd_j@apollo.hp.com (John Cloyd)
Subject: rere: Danged Resp.Code
Originator: cloyd_j@face_plant
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 20:17:24 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Apollo Division - Chelmsford, MA


>To be honest, I would not call anyone who has a problem with 
>"unpredictable beginners" advanced, let alone an expert.
 
    Hmmm, I wasn't aware that 'tolerance' was a necessary attribute of
an advanced skier. We must be a real bunch of bums on this list ! But
seriously, it depends on how you define "has a problem with". Since you
appear to have missed it, I'll try to clear up what I meant. In this
response you posted several ways to avoid a collision with an "unpredicatable
beginner". Although I've used all of these and a few less graceful methods :->
my concern is not with avoiding a collision with them, but with the effect
they have on my ability to enjoy myself. It was pointed out earlier that out
west you folks have much wider trails, which are less crowded. Out here the
best trails are very narrow, very twisty and often very bulletproof. It's
fun skiing unless you have to break out of your rhythm every 15 turns to
figure out and deal with what the person below you is going to do. If everyone
is skiing at a good speed, staying in their line, etc. it works out great.
But put a group of 6 (they travel in packs, you know) at various points across
the trail and you have a back up. It's a pain in the butt, and I'd like to
see ski areas make as honest an effort to keep these people out of my way
as they do to 'protect' them down on the blues. Is that unfair ?

>Grant Robinson -- ClariNet Communications Corp, Sunnyvale, CA (408)-296-0366

john cloyd -- given our geography (i live in maine, you in ca.,) you're probably
              far more crowd tolerant than me to begin with !
From: bdl@cruiser.uucp (Bob Lombard)
Newsgroups: rec.skiing
Subject: Re: Re: CO (Californicating) was Beginner's silly questions (!)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 92 20:16:23 PDT
Distribution: usa
Organization: what? me organized? no way!

bruno@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Bruno Melli) writes:

 
> There is no perfect place to live...
> 

'nuff said


------------------------------------------------------------------
* Bob Lombard (bdl@cruiser.uucp)         418 Village Center Dr.  *
*                                        Encinitas, Ca. 92024    *
* -Too many toys, Not enough time....                            *
------------------------------------------------------------------
From: torii@scslwide.sony.co.jp (aiko aiko)
Newsgroups: rec.skiing
Subject: latest snow report in NZ
Keywords: snow report, New Zealand
Date: 7 Sep 92 07:48:35 GMT
Organization: Sony Corporation, Tokyo, Japan

can somebody down under post the latest snow report in New Zealand ?
I'm planning to fly down this Sunday to Christchurch !


thanx in advance....

ken " I rather snowboard..." torii

Newsgroups: rec.skiing
From: dsb@gtx.ummed.edu (Douglas S. Bowman)
Subject: Wanted: condo to rent in Summit County, CO
Organization: University of Massachusetts Medical Center
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 92 13:13:45 GMT

I hope this isn't too early... I'm looking for a condo to rent for
a week in Summit County, sometime torwards the end of February/beg
of March.  There are 6ish of us that are interested in the area and
don't care if we're on a mtn/near a mtn/ or in Dillon or Frisco.

Thanks for any ideas....

Newsgroups: rec.skiing