HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: stanley@skyking.OCE.ORST.EDU (John Stanley)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Date: 8 Nov 92 19:34:43 GMT
Organization: Oregon State University, College of Oceanography

In article <1992Nov6.065425.473@metrosoft.com> gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen) writes:
>I agree with Ken here. I don't think it was clear at all. If you scan  
>several hundred messages a day would YOU notice a CFV if it didn't look  
>like it was for your group? 

How do you know it isn't for your group unless you notice it?  The fact
that it was posted in your group means that it has some meaning for that
group. If you notice it, and then choose to ignore it, that was your
decision.

P.S. it isn't "your group". It is the net's group. It belongs to
everyone. Even those who currently aren't reading it.
From: mjp@hplb.hpl.hp.com (Mike Prudence)
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 10:53:36 GMT
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Organization: Hewlett Packard Laboratories, Bristol, UK
Newsgroups: news.groups,rec.music.synth


Jim Smith sez:

> I think that Ken is making a very significant point here.  I saw all
> the postings in question, but then, I read everything on r.m.s.  The
> mention of rec.music.synth was buried after all the legalese
> gobbledygook and three other irrelevant proposals in the posts.  No
> wonder it was missed by many.  Try naming it "CFD: RENAMING
> rec.music.synth" and see what happens!

I agree.  I read r.m.s everyday, but don't have time to read every
post from top to bottom, especially when it's a CFV for
rec.music.makers.* which I don't even subscribe to.

*If* I had seen the CFV and it was clearly labelled, as Jim suggested,
I would have voted NO, and I would like to bet a few other people
around here who read this group would vote NO too.

If my car is broken, I fix it.  If it isn't, I leave well alone.

My suggestion: now that the issue has come out in the open, why the
hell don't we have another vote ?  I would guess this is probably
against 'UseNet Guidelines', but, hey, we're all human beings -
flexibility is our middle name.

My betting would be that the number of votes would be much larger, and
the vote would be more clearly one sided on the NO side.  And also,
the vote would contain a larger proportion of the people who actually
read and rely on this group, whether they post or not.

Then, maybe, we could get back to discussing music, rather than Usenet
policy, statistics or character analyses.

My tuppence.

Cheers,

Mike

mjp@hplb.hpl.hp.com                   "Only those who attempt the absurd will 
                                                     achieve the impossible."

Newsgroups: news.groups
From: chip@tct.com (Chip Salzenberg)
Subject: Re: CFV? What's a CFV??
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 20:40:44 GMT
Organization: TC Telemanagement, Clearwater, FL

According to gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen):
>In article <101624@bu.edu> khalid@bu-bio.bu.edu (Rasheed A. Khalid)  
>writes:
>> Call for votes.
>
>Here's a SPLENDID example of how someone was actually ASKING for  
>information and he was given a terse reply instead of real information
>he could use.

No.  It's a SPLENDID example of how you, yes, YOU, Gordon, go off
half-cocked without knowing what you're talking about.

It just so happens that I informed the original poster that reading
news.announce.newusers, especially "How To Create...", would answer
his question.

But you see, I did it in E-MAIL.  So you didn't see it.

I hope you don't _always_ assume that what you can't see isn't there.
-- 
Chip Salzenberg at Teltronics/TCT  <chip@tct.com>, <73717.366@compuserve.com>
                 just another elitist Usenet administrator
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: stanley@skyking.OCE.ORST.EDU (John Stanley)
Subject: Re: "BAD" music group reorg will not be honored
Organization: Oregon State University, College of Oceanography
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1992 20:17:21 GMT

In article <1992Nov8.162454.27395@daimi.aau.dk> rorschak@daimi.aau.dk (Jesper Lauridsen) writes:
>gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen) writes:
>
>>I and a number of other people have suggested (and no one responds to  
>>these postitive suggestions) that the guideline should be that subject  

In truth, I have seen responses to this suggestion. The claim that
nobody has responded to your suggestion is false.

>>lines for discussions and votes should DIRECTKY state what existing  
>>newsgroups they would affect. Is this too difficult? At least it's a  
>>suggestion.
>
>>I can't imagine a valid reason for a "no" response to this suggestion.
>
> Subject: CFV: Making of rec.music.makers.guitar, rec.music.makers.bass, rec.music.makers.guitar.tablature, rec.music.makers.percussion and renaming rec.music.synth to rec.music.makers.synth.

And then that article passes through a site that truncates the Subject
line and all that you see is:

Subject: CFV: Making of rec.music.

Unless you accept the premise that CFV means "This applies to you", this
solution is LESS clear than the Subject: that was used. 

Of course, some newsreaders only show a part of long subject lines
anyway. If you have a newsreader like this, are you going to complain
because you didn't know that the vote applied to you when your own
newsreader failed to show it to you? 

The answer is: CFV means "this applies to you". Whether it applies
because it might rename the groups you read, or create new ones that you
might want to read. If one is so apathetic about possible new groups or
renamings of current ones that they skip CFV articles, one has no excuse
for whining about the results of that vote.



Newsgroups: news.groups
From: METZE@VMETZE.MRL.UIUC.EDU (Virginia Metze)
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.equestrian.racing
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.24
Organization: Materials Research Laboratory
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 21:04:20 GMT


I think if it is under gambling, it will not be broad enough to cover all
of the topics in the list.  

For those mainly interested in handicapping and general racing information, the
derby mailing list is fine; it covers a good subset of the kind of topics
I would like to see the rec.equestrian.racing cover.  However, I
would think that any connection between the two should be decided by
that group's administrator.  

There is a fairly big difference between a news group and a mailing
list.  It is possible in a news group to cover a broader range of topics
with people able to pick the threads they want to follow and ignore
the rest.  With a mailing list every thing crosses your desk, so to
speak, and some people are bothered by that.



In <1992Nov10.232604.3049@news.vanderbilt.edu> LIPSCOJA@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu writes:

> I would suggest that if this is done, there should also be
> rec.equestrian.misc
> for other "horse" sports.  Also, should it have its own subhierarchy, or should
> it be under sport or gambling?
> A final suggestion: the existing DERBY mailing list should be gatewayed to it.
> 
> I support the idea.
> 
> 
> Andy Lipscomb
> lipscoja@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu (Bitnet: lipscoja@vuctrvax)
> Don't blame me, I voted Libertarian.


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Virginia Metze, speaking for no one but herself  + Impeach the Rehnquist
metze@vmetze.mrl.uiuc.edu                        + 5, 6, or 7
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
VMS cluster managers:  do you know where your queue manager is right now?
=============================================================================

Xref: sparky news.groups:21370 rec.music.makers.synth:53 news.admin.misc:317
From: mathew <mathew@mantis.co.uk>
Newsgroups: news.groups,rec.music.makers.synth,news.admin.misc
Subject: Rec.music.synth: The Punchline
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 92 13:19:48 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Mantis Consultants, Cambridge. UK.

rsk@gynko.circ.upenn.edu (Rich Kulawiec) writes:
> Several folks suggested an alternate approach to the musician's hierarchy;
> this article was a followup to one of those suggestions. 
> 
> | From: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes)
> | Newsgroups: news.groups
> | Subject: Re: RFD: several instrument-specific rec.music groups
> | Message-ID: <1992Aug20.204016.2022@jato.jpl.nasa.gov>
> | Date: 20 Aug 92 20:40:16 GMT
> | References: <Bt7pr0.3G7@uunet.uu.net> <14159@auspex-gw.auspex.com>
> | Reply-To: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov
> | Organization: Jet Propulsion Lab - Pasadena, CA
> | Lines: 20
> | 
> | johnf@Auspex.COM (John Fereira) writes:
> | >If you continue to pursue this I'd recommend a slight change.  Rather than
> | >put these groups directly under the rec.music hierarchy, put them under
                                                              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> | >rec.music.makers and then move rec.music.synth there as well.
     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^          ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> | 
> | Agreed! I second this...as it makes much more sense.
    ^^^^^^  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

This is funnier than Kent vs. the Trekkies!


mathew
-- 
This disclaimer does not represent the views of Mantis Consultants Ltd

Newsgroups: news.groups,news.admin.policy,rec.music.synth
From: ckd@eff.org (Christopher Davis)
Subject: Re: Music Group Reorg Disagreement (was Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored)
Followup-To: news.groups
Organization: Electronic Frontier Foundation Tech Central
	<BxG2xx.AAy@ccu.umanitoba.ca> <CKD.92Nov9161809@loiosh.eff.org>
	<1992Nov10.205344.15647@jato.jpl.nasa.gov>
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 23:20:08 GMT

[followups out of rec.music.synth]
Dave> == Dave Hayes <dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> 

 ckd> Dave had plenty of time to post a message, perhaps with a subject like:

 Dave> This argument is again a straw man. AS I explained before, I was
 Dave> so sure that vote wouldn't pass that I ignored details. It should
 Dave> never be too late to fix something that is objectively
 Dave> destructive.

And I say again:
"Well, rec.arts.poems.urdu passed.  I didn't think it would.  Can I
whine now?"

 Dave> It may be too late now. Thanks, folks, for ruining a perfectly
 Dave> good newsgroup.

Ruining?  It's just a renaming, Dave.  A rather mild one at that; it's
not like it became talk.politics.synth-music.manga.armadillo.buggerers.

Yes, Dave, it *is* too late.  This time.  Wait six months and run a vote
to change it *back*, so that it'll be at the same level as .gdead,
.classical, .dementia, .funky, and the like (with which it has just *so*
much commonality) and not .bass, .guitar, .percussion (which it's
obviously completely unrelated to).

The gateway maintainer said he gave up because of all the flamage, an
extremely large proportion of which was from you.  As for "objectively
destructive", the fact that there are people who disagree with you,
particularly people who VOTED who disagree with you, it doesn't seem all
that objectively destructive to me.  (What *are* these horrible
consequences, anyway?  Nobody seems harmed except for the folks on your
BBS, and mathew even offered complete directions for solving that
problem...)
--
Christopher K. Davis      | ``Usenet seems to run much like the Kif (or,
<ckd@eff.org>   EFF #14   |   for the TV generation, Klingon) high command.
System Administrator, EFF |   Whoever takes action and can be heard wins.''
+1 617 864 0665  [CKD1]   |   --Peter da Silva <peter@ferranti.com>
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: cs911157@ariel.yorku.ca (SYED K NAZEER)
Subject: Re: RFD: SOC.RELIGION.ISLAM.AHMADIYYA
Originator: cs911157@c01.ariel.yorku.ca
Organization: York University, Toronto, Canada
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 21:07:30 GMT


In article <1992Nov5.201721.1074@wolves.uucp>, news@wolves.uucp (The Wolfe of the Den) writes:

... stuff deleted ...

>> 3.  What are the qualifications of the moderators?
>> 
>> 	It is clear that the proposed moderators of the group are
>> sympathetic to the purposes of the group :-)  but beyond that, what are
>> their qualifications in terms of academic or technical accomplishments.
>> The "lingua fraca" of Usenet is (like it or not) English, and there seem
>> to be some problems with their command of that language.  Furthermore, I
>> wonder if they will be even-handed in their treatment of posts that are
>> critical or unsympathetic to the moderators' religion.

I fail to see the justification behind this concern.  I hope such concerns are not restricted for the moderators of the proposed group but are universal for all moderators of all groups.  Most moderated news groups have been moderated by people from all over the globe and so will soc.religion.islam.ahmadiyya.  And if there ever was a concern about the quality of moderations, I guess there is no law against posting such a concern and it is expected that an appropriate action will be taken.  Don't we forward





 these privillages to all moderators?

... stuff deleted ...

>> 			G. Wolfe Woodbury
>> -- 
>> Usenet Net News Administrator @ The Wolves Den  (G. Wolfe Woodbury)
>> news@wolves.durham.nc.us  news%wolves@cs.duke.edu  ...duke!wolves!news
>> "The flame war is a specific Usenet art form." --me
>> [This site is not affiliated with Duke University. (Idiots!) ]


Khurram Nazeer
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: twpierce@unix.amherst.edu (Tim Pierce)
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Organization: Homosexual Fascist Lobby, Rampant Paranoia Division
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1992 05:27:22 GMT

In article <1992Nov6.065425.473@metrosoft.com> gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen) writes:

>If you scan  
>several hundred messages a day would YOU notice a CFV if it didn't look  
>like it was for your group?

I would and I do.

-- 
____ Tim Pierce                / 
\  / twpierce@unix.amherst.edu / I use antlers in all of my decorating.
 \/ (BITnet: TWPIERCE@AMHERST) / 
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: strom@Watson.Ibm.Com (Rob Strom)
Subject: Re: rec.music.makers.*: chronology and comments from the vote-taker.
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 92 16:47:53 GMT
Organization: IBM Research

In article <1992Nov12.130128.8156@abekrd.co.uk>, graeme@abekrd.co.uk (Graeme Griffiths) writes:

|> 	I don't see a problem here. Why, Gordon, did "most of the affected
|> people" not know about the discussion ? From the riginal CFD header we see:
|> 
|> Newsgroups:news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,rec.music.misc,
|> 	rec.music.makers,alt.guitar,alt.guitar.bass,alt.guitar.tab
|> 
|> 	So all those groups, and I think we have to agree that these are the
|> "affected people" should have seen a CFD in their respective groups. If
|> they chose to ignore this then fine, if they didn't understand what CFD
|> means then why don't they read the news.newusers.questions group a little
|> more clearly.

I hate to add to an already overheated discussion, but the above
is part of the reason some folks on rec.music.synth are upset
even though the vote was apparently perfectly valid.

The context of the discussion is the vote on the renaming
of rec.music.synth.  You show a header that doesn't include
rec.music.synth and then say "I think we have to agree that these
are the affected people".  

Now I know that later the discussion *was* posted to
rec.music.synth, but the subject line from the time
that it wasn't was carried over.  A number of people
therefore didn't read the later messages and as a result
didn't realize that the old proposal had been amended
to include renaming rec.music.synth.  

I disagree with those calling for a revote, but
I share the frustration of people who feel that
more stringent rules for making people aware of
votes are called for.

I think that multiple unrelated votes should
not be on a single call-for-votes and ballot.
I also think that when there is a ballot with
multiple votes, there should be a separate
announcement relating to each of the votes,
and that the subject of each such announcement
should make it clear that a vote is in
progress and which newsgroup the vote is for.


-- 
Rob Strom, strom@watson.ibm.com, (914) 784-7641
IBM Research, 30 Saw Mill River Road, P.O. Box 704, Yorktown Heights, NY  10598
Newsgroups: news.groups,news.admin.policy,rec.music.synth
From: pwh@bradley.bradley.edu (Pete Hartman)
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Organization: Bradley University
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 92 17:50:58 GMT

In <1992Nov9.093222.11245@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes) writes:
>And think you that there's been no serious damage already? Do you guys
>even CARE about how many people you alienate with your damn inflexibility?

One newsgroup is trivial compared to general chaos of the net.
Do you have any idea how many people you are alienating by harping
on this as if USENET's sole responsibility is distributing MIDI
articles to a BBS net?

>Look, can't you even see that there is a problem?

I can see that there was a misunderstanding.  We should adjust for it
in the future.

But as others have pointed out, if you were so concerned about this
"problem", you had plenty of time to address it while the CFV was
going on, as you did vote.
-- 
Pete Hartman		       Bradley University	pwh@bradley.bradley.edu
                                But that's ok...
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: lazlo@triton.unm.edu (Lazlo Nibble)
Subject: Re: CFV: rec.music.reggae
Date: Sat, 07 Nov 92 00:47:37 GMT
Organization: None for me, thanks . . . I'm driving.

rick@crick.ssctr.bcm.tmc.edu (Richard H. Miller) writes:

> 1) Was there a RFD for this proposed news group.

No.  Mike Pawka has been posting this CFV to every rec.music group in the
subhierarchy for several days now.  A number of people have asked him to 
read the newsgroup creation guidelines, but if he's doing it, he's only
doing it one paragraph at a time.  (At this rate, I estimate he'll finally
figure out how to post a valid CFD and get things officially rolling
sometime early next Summer.)

--
   _^_   Lazlo Nibble (lazlo@triton.unm.edu)
  [O=O]   Moderator of Trancentral: The KLF/Orb & Co. Mailing List.
  /___\    Email klf-request@asylum.sf.ca.us to subscribe.
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: irilyth@fenris.claremont.edu (Josh Smith)
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Originator: irilyth@fenris
Organization: HMC Academic Computing Services
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 21:54:22 GMT

In a prior article, Dave Hayes (dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov) writes:

> The expressed wishes of the net is not to rename the group.

A zillion people are probably going to flame you for this, but I thought I'd
try to do so slightly constructively first. (grin) "The will of the net" is
a difficult thing to ascertain. At present, the generally agreed-upon
mechanisms for doing so are outlined in the Guidelines. Most people seem to
agree that the Guidelines were followed in this case (at least to the
letter), though some have observed that this produced a non-ideal result--
that the Guidelines were followed, but that the true will of the net was not
correctly ascertained in spite of that.

In order to improve the situation, some have made suggestions as to how to
better capture the will of the net in the future. In particular, addressing
the problem of uninformed voters, various people have suggested ways to help
"get out the vote". If you have something to add to this discussion, please
do so.

However, if all you're going to do is make pronouncements, kindly refrain.
You seem to think you have better access to the will of the net than the
rest of us; ask yourself which is more elitist, to say, "Through this voting
process, in which anyone could have participated, we think we have
ascertained the will of the net," or "I, as a knowledgeable person, think I
have ascertained the will of the net." If the vote had gone the other way,
and someone on the other side (say, Chip Salzberg, to pick a random, self-
declared "loud" person) said "This vote does not reflect the will of the
net," I'd say the same to him.

Summary: we have a procedure for determining the will of the net. You don't
seem to think it works. If you have a better procedure, suggest it; if not,
work on one, and suggest it when you have it. Regardless, don't make claims
which make it sound like you have some magical ability to determine the will
of the net, because I don't think anyone believes that (not even you).
-- 
Josh Smith, User Support Coordinator  ::  irilyth@fenris.claremont.edu
Harvey Mudd College, Claremont CA     ::  consult(std-disclaimer.pl).
"Dad always thought laughter was the best medicine, which I guess is why
several of us died of tuberculosis." -Jack Handey, Deep Thoughts
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: chip@tct.com (Chip Salzenberg)
Subject: Re: Intentional ignorance of newsgroup creation (was Re: *BAD*...)
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 19:02:55 GMT
Organization: TC Telemanagement, Clearwater, FL

According to gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen):
>In article <1992Nov9.175405.13641@daimi.aau.dk> rorschak@daimi.aau.dk  
>(Jesper Lauridsen) writes:
>> ... it's simply a question of being interested or not.
>Interest isn't the only requirement.

Yes, it is.  Or can you show other requirements?
-- 
Chip Salzenberg at Teltronics/TCT  <chip@tct.com>, <73717.366@compuserve.com>
                 just another elitist Usenet administrator
Xref: sparky news.groups:21210 news.admin.policy:295 rec.music.synth:18271
From: twpierce@unix.amherst.edu (Tim Pierce)
Newsgroups: news.groups,news.admin.policy,rec.music.synth
Subject: Re: Music Group Reorg Disagreement (was Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored)
Date: 11 Nov 92 16:51:58 GMT
Organization: Homosexual Fascist Lobby, Rampant Paranoia Division

In article <1992Nov10.205041.15518@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov writes:

>fenner@snobol.cs.psu.edu (Bill Fenner) writes:
>
>>Ah, so when I'm reading news.announce.newgroups, and I hit "=", I'll see
>> 663 RFD: Changing YOUR newsgroup.
>
>So it looks like this, then:
>
>663 This group being changed [RFD: rec.music.synth => rec.music.makers.synth]

So then, when I'm reading alt.guitar.tab, I say, "What?  I don't read
rec.music.synth!  This must be a mistake!" and skip it.

Three months later, I post an infuriated message to fifteen newsgroups
reading, "*BAD* music reorg will not be honored!"

-- 
____ Tim Pierce                / 
\  / twpierce@unix.amherst.edu / I use antlers in all of my decorating.
 \/ (BITnet: TWPIERCE@AMHERST) /
From: rsk@gynko.circ.upenn.edu (Rich Kulawiec)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Date: 11 Nov 92 21:59:47 GMT
Organization: GSP Whitewater Slalom Racing Team

In article <1992Nov10.212500.16425@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov writes:
>A lot of people said "I mailed my vote in but it wasn't counted". 
>Most news.admins say "Tough". Is that what the net wants to happen?

One (1) person has complained to me that their vote was not counted
via mail; that person also posted an article conveying the same information.
It has already been repeatedly explained that this person submitted an
improperly-formatted vote, which *cannot* be counted according to the
rules for conducting a vote.  (Vote-takers aren't allowed to "fix"
incorrectly-submitted ballots.)

One (1) other person has also posted to the same effect.  That makes
a total of two (2) people who have complained.  I don't think 2 == "a lot".

---Rsk
From: nm0w+@andrew.cmu.edu (Nanci Ann Miller)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.games.netrek reorganization
Date: 12 Nov 92 02:10:25 GMT
	<721495792.1064.0@unix4.andrew.cmu.edu>
Organization: Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA

Isn't Alan Cabrera the guy who is flaming people for profanity?  I also
overheard someone say that he may be the discovery server god (anyone know
for sure?  Alan?).  I can just see it now... with Alan moderating things,
if your post isn't sqeaky clean you might as well forget it.... yeah right.
Give it up Alan and quit wasting our time.

Nanci
Newsgroups: news.groups