From: pdb059@ipl.jpl.nasa.gov (Paul Bartholomew)
Newsgroups: ca.politics
Subject: Re: My Purpose In Getting NAMBLA Shunned
Date: 1 Sep 92 10:24:55 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Image Processing Lab

In article <12037@optilink.UUCP>, cramer@optilink.UUCP (Clayton Cramer) writes:
> In article <193928@ipl.jpl.nasa.gov>, pdb059@ipl.jpl.nasa.gov (Paul Bartholomew) writes:
> # 
> # In any case, you are correct about one thing; there have been members of
> # NAMBLA arrested for child molestation, I believe.  This is insufficient
> 
> And convicted, and sent to prison.

I chose my word ("arrested") inappropriately in this case, leaving my posting
unintentionally ambiguous.  You are correct.

> # grounds for me to deny the group's right to exist, however; just as the
> 
> NO ONE HAS CALLED FOR THAT!

Can you shout a little louder next time?  I can read, Clayton, whether you
use capital letters or lower case.  I don't recall inviting you into this
discussion, nor in fact was this directed at you.  Methinks the fellow doth
protest a bit too much.

> # fact that members of the KKK have been arrested for murdering black men
> # is insufficient grounds for me to deny the group's right to exist.
> # 
> # Now if you can find evidence that the majority of members of NAMBLA are child
> # molesters, then I will join Clayton's crusade to shut the group down.
> 
> I HAVE NEVER CALLED FOR THAT, LIAR!

Now this *was* directed at you.

Liar is a tad strong, but I must admit that Clayton has me here.  He
has not, to my knowledge, formally called for banning the group.  Still,
based on his postings for the past year, I maintain that it is reasonable to
assume that one of his goals (among many) is the breakup of NAMBLA.  If
this is not the case, please let us know, Clayton.

> I don't even know if the Rene Gruyon Society still exists.  Perhaps
> it's because they don't have anyone willing to let them march in
> parades.

Parade, Clayton; singular.  The only one you've told us about is the SF
Gay Pride parade.  Others have posted that NAMBLA is prevented from marching
in other Gay Pride parades.  Do you know of any other parades that NAMBLA
marches in?  Incidentally, why do you never mention that NAMBLA received no
support along the parade route?  It was booed and, in fact, didn't even
finish the parade.  This doesn't seem to me to indicate "overwhelming support".

> # Since he has never presented convincing evidence of this, his argument falls
> # apart.
> 
> Just lots of postings defending them.

We've been through this before.  I've read your cross-postings and some of
them trouble me.  You make several errors, though, that we've discussed
before.  Shall we go through this again?

1.  "Evidence", Clayton--what you have posted is material you have selected
from postings to soc.motss.  You have decided that this small number of
people is representative of the entire gay community who post to Usenet;
and have further decided that the gay community on Usenet is representative
of the gay community at large.  Neither of these assumptions is permissible.

2.  "Evidence", Clayton--Research, facts, statistical studies, expert opinion.
Remember those?  Where is your research on this issue?  Why have you not
gone to your local library and searched for evidence to support your crusade?
Can it be that you're afraid this evidence doesn't exist?  You have posted
information from two (count them, two) studies on child molestation (and
then misinterpreted the statistics from them).

3.  "Lots", Clayton--You've been on this crusade for more than a year now and
all I've seen from you is several dozen postings from no more than a couple
of dozen people or so.  This does not translate into "lots" by my definition
of the word.  This isn't even "lots" of the gay community on Usenet, let
along the gay community nationwide or even worldwide.

4.  "Lots", Clayton--NAMBLA marches in the SF Gay Pride parade.  They do not
march in literally hundreds of others nationwide.  This isn't "lots" by my
definition, either.

I stand by my argument--you have never presented convincing evidence of your
assertions that:

1.  NAMBLA has overwhelming support in the gay community.
2.  there is overwhelming support for child molestation in the gay community.
3.  there is a link between homosexuality and child molestation.
4.  homosexuals are mentally ill or psychologically disturbed (choose your
terminology--you've used both in the past).
5.  homosexuality is a disfunctional lifestyle.

Every single one of these assertions is unsubstantiated by *evidence* and
yet you have made and defended every one of them.  Care to comment?

> # As for the unwanted fire, Clayton's homophobia is well known.  If it hadn't
> # been NAMBLA, he'd have found something else to attack.  In fact, he already
> # has (e.g., his recent postings on S&M and transvestitism).

> NAMBLA is the reason that I no longer consider homosexuality an
> "alternative lifestyle."

No, Clayton, you've also said that it is not an "alternative lifestyle"
because it is a mental illness; because its members offer "overwhelming
support" for child molestation; because it is a "disfunctional lifestyle";
because gays are "lower than animals" in their sexual practices; etc., etc.,
etc.  You have used such phrases as "typical lying homosexuals" and other
gratuitous insults.  You've even brought in the Bible to support your
moral crusade.

I stand by my assertion that even if NAMBLA didn't exist, you'd have found
something else to attack (in fact, you already have), and would still regard
homosexuality as an unacceptable lifestyle.

Incidentally, what is your definition of "lifestyle"?  I've heard of people
arguing that homosexuality is not an acceptable lifestyle, but never heard
of anyone arguing that it is not an alternative lifestyle.

> I shudder to think of the number of hours I've spent arguing
> with people who claimed that homosexuality should be prohibited,
> because they were all sickos.

I love this, coming from Clayton.  It's even funnier when you realize that
he himself has called homosexuals sickos (or words to that effect).  With
friends like you Clayton, the gay community doesn't need enemies.

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Paul Bartholomew          |   "The time has come, the walrus said, to talk of
                          |    many things..."                  Lewis Carroll
pdb059@ipl.jpl.nasa.gov   |   Disclaimer:  Opinions?  What opinions?
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