HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ljmorly@polaris.utu.fi (Laura Johanna Manninen)
Subject: Re: Jews killing Jesus
Organization: University of Turku
Distribution: alt
Date: 15 Dec 92 15:09:50

              @@@ Submitted on behalf of Tord Ivarsson @@@

From: etxtdi@eds.ericsson.se
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Jews killing Jesus
Date: 15 Dec 92 12:05:51 +0100
Organization: LM Ericsson Data AB, Stockholm, Sweden

Edward A Shnekendorf writes:

> I have always been curious as to why Christians have persecuted Jews for
> centuries on the pretense that the Jews killed Jesus.  Assuming that this
> was true, should not the Jews be thanked?  Jesus could only have brought
> deliverance to the world through his death.  His purpose was to die because,
> according to the New Testament, redemption would be brought about by his blood.
> If this is all true, then the alleged murderers of Christ (the Jews) would
> be fulfilling scripture.  Had the Jews not "killed" Jesus, no one would have 
> been saved.  To put it bluntly, Jesus was only good dead.  What then was the
> Church's rationale for condeming the death of Christ?
> 

I like your question Edward.
This is exactly what I have asked myself a lot of times.
 
The fact that you describe actually proves what these
people were or rather what they were NOT.
It proves that the "church" and the people who took part
in persecution of various kind agains Jews in various times,
were something else then personal Christians with a real
contact with the living G-d and a true interest for what
the bible says and teaches. Shortly, they were NOT the
diciples of Christ. 
So sad then that they carried the christian name and led
others to believe what they lived and practiced was
Christianity. 
But Christianity is after all a matter of definition.

Christianity is in itself so "unnatural" and challenges
the natural mind to such an extent that figuring out and
creating Christianity by the human brain seems like an
equally great miracle than what Christianity is all about
itself.
Biblical Christianity is when I myself die and is resurrected
with Christ, and living by the power of Christ in my own life. 
This IS a miracle and it produces an immensly great
gratitude towards the one that accomplished it all for us.
 
Tord.



------------------
(my .sig  -Laura)
--
"For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government 
will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Councellor,
Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."  - Yeshaya 9:5 (9:6)
 
"To the Jews who had believed him, Yeshua said, "If you hold to my
teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth,
and the truth will set you free.""   - Yochanan 8:32-33
From: Bill.Carlson@p0.f18.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Bill Carlson)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Why Jews Hate Proselytizing
Date: 17 Dec 92 02:42:05 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/18.0 - Midrash, Denver CO

To: bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu

 MIK> Date: 12 Dec 92 01:52:51 GMT
 MIK> Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
 MIK> Message-ID: <1gbgljINN8en@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>
 MIK> Newsgroups: alt.messianic
 MIK> 
 MIK> There have been various recent efforts to link Christianity to 
 MIK> Judaism.  These efforts range from the repeated use of the phrase   
 MIK> "Judeo-Christian"

      That "phrase" is is aprox. 200 years old.  NEXT! :-)

 MIK>  to groups of evangelists refering to themselves
 MIK> as 'Jews' for Jesus.

      I usually say: "Y'hudim l'Yeshua" :-)

 MIK> All of these efforts, calculated to convert Jews to Christianity,
 MIK> are doomed to failure.

     Hey dude; there are "plenty" of 'Jews' in "Christianity"; I'm a
     Messianic Jew. {my mother is Jewish, and I'm a Torah observant
     Jew}.  So..., what is the failure with 14.9% of the total Jewish
     population? :-)

 MIK> These efforts prove that those who do this know little or nothing
 MIK> bout Judasim.

      So... I have discussed Judaic implications with various Orthodox
      Rabbi's, so...., you think I "know little or nothing about
      Judaism"?  Nu..., so what do you think YOU know!

 MIK> To begin, there is much about how Christians worship that Jews
 MIK> regard as idol-worship.  From the Jewish point of view, Christian
 MIK> prayer is wierd and demeaning.  Jews actually do not have visions
 MIK> of God, let alone any sort of icons.  God is considered as beyond 
 MIK> anything that we mortals could possibly grasp.  The very thought, 
 MIK> that "Jesus is Lord," assaults the basic concept of God for Jews. 

     But then again...  Then Torah has been given unto the sons of men;
     so...  Since "the Arm of HaShem" is Mashiach according to the
     Targumim - why do you consider that "idol-worship"?  Perhaps there
     is more than meets you/the eye?
          Want to talk about it?  Or..., want to be a head in the sand?

... 012 Think not that I am come to annul the Torah or the Prophets: 210    
--  
Bill Carlson - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: Bill.Carlson@p0.f18.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG
From: Bill.Carlson@p0.f18.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Bill Carlson)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Jews Killing Jesus
Date: 17 Dec 92 02:58:06 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/18.0 - Midrash, Denver CO

To: eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu

 EAS> Date: 14 Dec 92 22:39:17 GMT
 EAS> Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
 EAS> Message-ID: <Bz9tLI.Cz7@news.cso.uiuc.edu>
 EAS> Newsgroups: alt.messianic

 EAS> I have always been curious as to why Christians have persecuted
 EAS> Jews for centuries on the pretense that the Jews killed Jesus....

      Ok..., just an addition to what Laura has already told you.
           For starters.  It was the "Romans" that actually "killed"
      Yeshua/(Jesus).  That being a given, why do you think the 'Roman
      catholic's' were the first to come up with the phrase 'Christ
      killers'.  (the clock is ticking... :-)

... 012 Am Israel Chai! 210    
--  
Bill Carlson - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
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INTERNET: Bill.Carlson@p0.f18.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG
From: miner@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Queries from former SDA
Date: 17 Dec 92 20:14:30 CST
Organization: University of Kansas Academic Computing Services

QUERIES

Like every other ex-Seventh-Day Adventist intellectual I have run
into, I have always had a positive feeling toward Jews and Judaism. 
In New York City in the 50s I encountered an entire congregation of
ethnically Jewish Seventh-Day Adventists and came close to marrying
a girl of that group.  Today I am a professional linguist with some
publications on the Yiddish language, and an avid reader and
admirer of Jewish literature.  I even have a copy of Einspruch's
_Bris Khadoshe_ which I treasure (and can pretty well read).

There are many things I have been wanting to ask you all since
discovering this newsgroup.  Since there surely should be a FAQ,
let this be a beginning!

1) Is there a diversity of MJ groups, or is it more or less a
unified movement?

2) If there are factions, what divides them?

3) What positions along the liberal-conservative continuum does the
theology take?

4) Where do MJs stand on the current U.S. "culture wars?"

5) Are there many adherents who are ethnically non-Jewish, like me? 
Does it make any sense to speak of "conversion" of an ethnic
Christian to MJ?

I will welcome any and all answers, here or e-mail.

-Ken
-- 
miner@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu | Graecis ac barbaris, sapientibus et
opinions are my own      | insipientibus debitor sum
From: pauld@sdd.hp.com (Paul Dillinger)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: What did Judas betray?
Date: 18 Dec 1992 15:51:47 -0800
Organization: Hewlett Packard, San Diego Division
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: hpsdl102.sdd.hp.com

In article  <1gob0eINNik@gap.caltech.edu>
 carl@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU (Carl J Lydick) writes:

> Before the Bible-thumpers respond, repeat their mantra after me (preferably
> with as much whining as possible):
>   But THEY weren't *REAL* Christians.

I can see the frustration this line of reasoning produces. However, I
think we are missing something important. Let's take an example using
medicine. Let's say that an individual claims to be a doctor and claims
to practice medicine. But upon inspection we find that this individual
has never been to med school, is not licensed, and in fact is a drug
dealer.

I you informed us, as one who might understand what the practice of
medicine really is, that no matter what his claims were, that indeed he
is not a doctor, your evaluation would seem reasonable. Especially if
you were able to cite references which shows what the requirement of the
medical profession are, and contrast this with his actual behavior. 

I believe this is also true for those claiming to be practicing
Christianity, but their wicked behavior denies their claim. I am
speaking of the crimes of men throughout the ages, who called themselves
Christians, and who used the name of Jesus as a cloak for wickedness. I
judge their behavior as an extreme departure from what is described in
the NT. Here is one citation of NT scripture:

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being
abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
                                                        (Tit 1:16)

We don't have to say "they were not REAL Christians,", we can simply say
they were not Christians.

-
  Paul       Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another:
Dillinger                                                    Mal 3:16a
-
From: Bill.Carlson@p0.f18.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Bill Carlson)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Shem Tov Version Of Matthew
Date: 17 Dec 92 03:31:04 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/18.0 - Midrash, Denver CO

To: harwood@umiacs.umd.edu

 DH> Date: 11 Dec 92 04:43:07 GMT
 DH> Organization: UMIACS, University of Maryland, College Park, MD 20742
 DH> Message-ID: <62754@mimsy.umd.edu>
 DH> Newsgroups: alt.messianic

 DH> In article <141420.2B2634D9@paranet.FIDONET.ORG>
 DH> Bill.Carlson@p0.f18.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Bill Carlson) writes:\
 DH> [making a reference in reply about original language versions of
 DH> Matthew ...] > John the talmid/disciple of Yeshua).  Second, we
 DH> have a LOT of > very early manuscripts of Matthew in Hebrew.
 DH> Including the >     Shem Tov in a form of 1st century Mishnaic-
 DH> Hebrew, and the Old \\\\\\\\\

 DH> You referred to this Shem Tov version of Matthew previously, but I

    What can I say...
         The Shem Tov Matthew has been discovered in the last 5 years.
    It is a 1st century version of Matthew in Mishnaic Hebrew.  Also
    is the Old Syriac #30 version of Matthew thur John, in Biblical
    Aramiac, from the 2nd century onward.  [Reff. by for example the
    New King James Version].  I have [with some reservation] offered
    these versions, (which are {other than this version} out of print)
    for sale in a BETA version, [the spelling needs correcting, but
    otherwise is complete], for $10.00 including shipping and handling.
    If anyone is interested, then can E-mail me.  Or there is a free-
    ware version I have made available to the public on MIDRASH:
    (303) 289-6864. {@ 9600 baud}.

         Hopefully, this is not a profit making deal for me; as I've
         tried to make this material available for a LOW cost....
         (it cost me WAY OVER $100.00!}.  And I've spent 3 years, and
         100's of my man-hours to make this available to the public!

--  
Bill Carlson - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: Bill.Carlson@p0.f18.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG
From: harwood@umiacs.umd.edu (David Harwood)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Shalom and the Messiah
Date: 17 Dec 92 01:06:42 GMT
Organization: UMIACS, University of Maryland, College Park, MD 20742

In article <9212151854.AA07840@relay2.UU.NET> cohen@quark.com writes:
>
>harwood@umiacs.umd.edu (David Harwood) writes:
>
>> It is not a question of the coming of the Messiah, to impose peace, but of
>> the desire to receive him. A desire for peace.
>
>Jews believe that once the Messiah comes "nation shall not lift up sword
>against nation, and shall not learn war anymore."  Until that happens
>(regardles of the reasons it hasn't happened), the Messiah has not arrived.

\\\\\\\
Then the world at large, and Israel as well, has no real desire for the 
Messiah or for peace. As a personal observation, most of those of my
acquaintance, who live as Christians faithfully, are found among those
who are involved in charitable missions, and very many (most?) are
pacifistic - they try to overcome evil by doing good, as Jesus taught.
(That is crucial issue - we should live as Jesus did. Very often,
Christians are not faithful - they do reflect upon what would Jesus
do himself, what would he have us do? Would he kill his enemies, or
take revenge on them? Would he try to kill as few as could be "justified"?
Would he ignore the suffering of others?)
D.H.
From: David.Johnson@f0.n2012.z8.FIDONET.ORG (David Johnson)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Why Jews Hate Proselytizing
Date: 14 Dec 92 03:28:38 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 8:2012/0


 MIK>    Moshiach(messiah) is not a supernatural being.  He is supposed
 MIK> to be a man, and only a man.  For this reason, it is not possible
 MIK> for the Jewish messiah to be born, die, and be resurrected, so he
 MIK> can try to get right what he never accomplished the first time.

Then the Jews must reject the entire book of Isaiah, which clearly tells us that the Holy One of God *IS* God, and is supernatural.

 MIK>    And finally, the concept of God crucifying his own son for the
 MIK> sins of any other person, let alone all of humanity, is, from the 
 MIK> Jewish point of view, totally unacceptable. 

But it is okay to sacrifice a sheep, or even Isaac, right?  What were the sacrifices for?  Your standing is inconsistent with the texts that you hold as authoritative.

 MIK>    I hope that this is not regarded as judgement of Christianity, 
 MIK> for it is not.  Please consider this as simply an explanation why 
 MIK> Christianity can never find common ground with Judaism.  It is my
 MIK> hope that this will shed light on why Jews are so deeply offended 
 MIK> by, and resentful of, Christian proselytising.

I don't see it as judgment, and I appreciate your sharing your opinion with us.  However, it does seem to me that Judaism rejects its own scriptures, from which its authority is claimed.

May the Spirit of Yeshua indwell you, convict you, and redeem you forever...

DJ
--  
David Johnson - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
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Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: billg@bony1.bony.com (Bill Gripp)
Subject: Re: Article 844
Organization: LA&W RR
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 92 03:06:47 GMT

In article <Bz8zww.8CD@cck.coventry.ac.uk> api053@cch.coventry.ac.uk (Garion) writes:
>Could anyone please send me the contents of article 844?  It's not available
>to me any more and I would like it for reference.  Thanks,

Article numbers are maintained by your local system.  For example this
post is Article 3261 here, some other number on your and other systems.
We'll need more info to figure out what it is you are looking for.

Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: ljmorly@polaris.utu.fi (Laura Johanna Manninen)
Subject: Re: What did Judas betray?
Organization: University of Turku
	<1992Dec11.132505.165352@dstos3.dsto.gov.au>
	<GERRY.92Dec12124404@onion.cmu.edu>
Date: 14 Dec 92 16:32:50

In article <GERRY.92Dec12124404@onion.cmu.edu> gerry@cmu.edu (Gerry Roston) writes:
> Yawn.. not this again.  Look, if someone claims to be a xian and acts
> in a manner that is supposedly the xian manner, who is to say that
> that action is un-xian?  ANother xian.  But what if the first xian
> says the second is not really an xian?  

> Look, it's simple.  If an xian performs an act and says its an xian
> act, that's what xianity is, whether other xians like it or not.

Thanks. Now just replace the word "xian" with the word 'Jew', and
"xianity" with 'Judaism'. As to Christianity/Biblical Judaism, it's 
the Bible that says what it really is, not other people.

- Laura
--
"They will say of me, 'In the LORD alone are righteousness and
strength.' All who have raged against him will come to him and
be put to shame. But in the LORD all the descendants of Israel
will be found righteous and will exult."       Yeshaya 45:24-25

"Achen Ata El mistater Elohei Israel Moshia."  Yeshaya 45:15
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
From: Will Steeves <goid@zooid.guild.org>
Subject: Re: Who Is Really Oppress
X-To: BRONIS VIDUGIRIS
Organization: The Zoo of Ids
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 16:11:00 GMT
Keywords: Will "the thick-skinned mouse" (?!!) gets a good laugh, for a change..

bhv@areaplg2.corp.mot.com (Bronis Vidugiris) writes...
BV> In article <WMXTB37D@cc.swarthmore.edu> nparkhu1@cc.swarthmore.edu (Nao Park
BV> hurst) writes:

BV> )Truly you are a fool. Mr. Parkhurst, to think that only slaveowners were
BV> )oppressors.  The act of accepting slavery and reaping the benifits of
BV> )slavery in an act of oppression.  If one person is doing a wrong, nothing
BV> )will come of it unless that person has the support P physical or social -
BV> )of others.  99.9% of the European-Americans during slavery's heyday were
BV> )oppressors in one sense or another, including your family (and you
BV> )obviosuly for thinking this way.)


BV> I think you are being a bit tough on yourself, Mr. Parkhurst, in calling
BV> yourself a fool.


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

I'm glad that someone else noticed that!  I figured that it would probably
be you - your sense of humour seems to be about as warped as mine.  :-)

(My GOiD!  That could have been taken as a flame, if you *really* knew my
sense of humour <-: ).

Thank you for brightening up my day, although I am going to be slain for
writing a message to three newsgroups about it... (I had only done so, to
underline the fact that the person whom I replied to, called *himself* a fool
when he seemingly intended to throw that label at *me* (?!?))

---
Will Steeves, goid@zooid.guild.org                      "Neil Hull is GOiD"
ZOOiD BBS, Toronto, Ontario - The Zoo Of Ids            "GOiDS Rule"
(416) 322-7876

"Cthulhu for President in '92 - Why vote for the _lesser_ of two evils?"
                                                          - Bronis Vidugiris
---
 * SLMR 2.1a * If winning isn't important then why keep score?
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
From: biesel@javelin.sim.es.com (Heiner Biesel)
Subject: Re: CALLING ALL WOMEN..WHERE ARE YOU?
Organization: Evans & Sutherland Computer Corp.
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 18:23:00 GMT

mec6@quads.uchicago.edu (rini) writes:

>biesel@javelin.sim.es.com (Heiner Biesel) writes:
>>mec6@quads.uchicago.edu (rini) writes:

>...[embarassing exchange deleted]...
> 
>>Oh, stop it rini! It's just no good. Look, everyone is staring at us.
>>I don't enjoy watching you suffer. I'm sorry you're hurt, truly sorry;
>>I'm even willing to go with you to see Dr. Benway for counseling, but
>>I draw the line at shock treatments. (not that I expect much help; I
>>remember only too well the humiliation I felt when we went to that
>>psychodrama quack, and you acted out your necrophiliac fantasies. I
>>could never face those people again after that...)

>I'm afraid it's too late.  It's true.  I did fantasize about
>reconciliation, but now it clear that it is too late.  (I have 
>finaly found Dr. Benway, btw.  She too is a lesbian feminist,
>(turns out she was _disguised_ as a male disguised as a female to 
>set you on the wrong track, but I have finally tracked her down 
>through my connections with NOW) and right now we are working 
>through repressed childhood memories of satanic ritual abuse 
>involving the inhalation of bug spray.  (It's pretty clear that my 
>unnatural heterosexual impulse came about from these experiences...
>I also have a much better understanding of your William Tell
>scene... misogyny, pure misogyny.)

>>Anyway, I still care about you. So, sweetie, just for you "87%, two
>>sigma deviation!".

>I HAVE _NOT_ CONSENTED TO THIS!   NO MEANS NO!  When will men learn 
>that we are not your sex toys?  

>I just might have a ground-breaking legal case against you now!

OK, if that's the way you want it bitch, that's the way you'll get it.
I've contacted my lawyer Filzstein, of Goldbrick, Feingold, Stunkel
and Smythe, and you'll be hearing from him soon. And, by the way, I
still have those Polaroids(TM) of you with the dolphins, and Andy
says he'll testify about the time you and he hosted that party for
the orphanage, so I wouldn't push too hard if I were you.

rini, you're sick and desperately need help. Those fantasies about
abuse, and this perverse fascination with homosexual encounters are
just symptoms of brainwashing. You're being manipulated by others
for evil porpoises, or maybe dolphins, or just possibly manatees,
it's hard to tell from here. It's a conspiracy to establish a
matriarchy, and you're just a pawn, a plaything for the Old Girl's
network. Wake up, smell the coffee, eat the bacon, and brush your
teeth; it's morning in Amerika! Hahahaha... *guffaw*, as Muffy would say.

Regards,
       Heiner
       who apologizes for absolutely everything he's ever done
Xref: sparky alt.feminism:6226 soc.men:21394 soc.women:21640
From: Diane
Newsgroups: alt.feminism,soc.men,soc.women
Subject: Re: Living in a State of Siege
Date: 18 Dec 92 20:28:30 GMT
Organization: University of Missouri

In article <1992Dec18.184824.10383@rat.csc.calpoly.edu>
dgross@polyslo.csc.calpoly.edu (Dave Gross) writes:
 
>        "We men" are surrounded by violence from our circumcision in infancy
>(no anaesthesia, thank you) to being bullied in elementary school; from trying
>out for the football team in high school to registering for the draft; from
>being several times more likely than our sisters to be murdered to watching
>boxing on television; from visiting Arlington National Cemetery to running our
>fingers along the Vietnam War Memorial.
>
Just a few questions/answers:
 
1) Who are the major proponents of circumcision?
- Doctors, the mojority of which are still men.
 
2) Who does the majority of bullying in school?
- Boys
 
3) Who tries out for football teams?
- boys/ men
 
4) Who legislated draft registration?
- legislative bodies which are comprised overwhelmingly of men
 
5) Who murders the most men?
- Men
 
6) Who the hell forces you to watch boxing on television?
- Big Clue: You. Are you a man? 'Nuff said.
 
7) Who killed the men in Arlington Cemetary?
- Men
 
8) Who sent our brothers/fathers/husbands to Viet Nam?
- Men
 
Are you seeing a trend here? If there's a problem with violence, it looks
suspiciously like a male-problem that women are supposed to just put up with,
because we may not make up the largest segment of victims. But unfortunately,
women are victims, and primarily victims of men. If there is a problem with
male violence, maybe you can start doing something about it instead of just
running your mouth about how terrible it is. You seem to be angry that women
would dare to usurp whatever fear you claim to be living with. Deal with it.
We have dealt with it, are dealing with it, and we're sick of it. You're
going to have to get your sympathy from somewhere else.
 
Diane
If you're not part of the cure, you're part of the problem. [ ]
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
From: moranc@woods.ulowell.edu
Subject: Re: I'm So Confused
Organization: University of Lowell
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 16:49:48 GMT

It really depends on how he went about it.  There are ways that 
he could do it that would not offend me, I would possibly even be flattered. 
But, sometimes, someways, it can be offensive.

My confusion does not lie in their actions, only in my responses.

--still pretty damn confused

Newsgroups: alt.feminism