From: roholdr@ccu.umanitoba.ca (R Ross Holder Jr)
Newsgroups: alt.satanism
Subject: Re: xians here
Date: 31 Jul 92 16:24:30 GMT
Organization: University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Canada


In <1992Jul29.082659.18765@fs7.ece.cmu.edu> locklin@henry.ece.cmu.edu (Scott Locklin) writes:


>In response to Ross' request for information as to the philosophy
>of Satanists; Read Anton LaVey's Satanic Bible. If you don't bother
>reading the literature of your philosophical enemy you are in NO position
>to attack their positions as you know not where they stand... Most Satanists

Aren't I?  But I'm not taking any of the statements I've "attacked" (through
questioning, I'll add) out of context am I?  If not and if I understand
their meaning correctly, in what way would I need the remainder of the Satanic
Bible?  An attack on Satanism as a whole and its philosophy would undoubtebly
require more reading on my part - as may even my participation in these 
discussions.  But so far all I have done is provide my personal perspective,
which is surely to be incomplete.  In the minds of some, this may invalidate
my input.  Though, is there one among us who truly understands all there is
to understand about Satanic or, for that matter, Christian doctrine?

>are ex-christians; which gives them a at least some kind of idea what 
>xtian beliefs are (an interesting point;you don't find too many satanists
>who come from agnostic or atheist families-I'll come back to this later)

I believe many Christian organizations such as the Pentecostal, Roman/Ukranian
Catholic and particularly the Jehovah's Witness Churches have done much to
harm Christiandom.  There are not just flaws, but huge, gaping rifts in much
of their respective doctrines.  Again, in particular, I'll refer to the
arrogant Catholic assertion that the Papacy is not the representation of, but
the right arm of God.  What Church is it that goes into debt?  What Church
is it that, while this is true, does not sell little items like the Vatican
to help the poor, the sick, the tormented?  What "Holy" order is it that
denies human beings the right to participate in worship with their fellow
Christians until they adhere to this less-than-perfect philosophy?  I can
sympathise with the will of people to turn away from Christianity; their
faith racked with such hypocricy.  Somehow I think that Jesus Christ, were he
present, be something short of impressed with Jean-Paul II, although I 
feel he's far from the only problem.

>As far as beliefs or philosophy goes; I'll try explaining what I consider to 
>be the main points (note; some Satanists have no philosophy or beliefs
>satanism is just the way they are... consider most Roman Chatholics; ask
>the average R.C. to elucidate his/her religious beliefs/philosophy and
>you will likely get a blank stare...)

Yes yes yes, but the basic points may be available in a summary.  There is a
God in a place called heaven that is somewhere outside of the physical
universe.  God is all-knowing, all-powerful, and all loving.  God created the
universe, etc., etc.

>I think THE main point of Satanism is that it is a LIFE-affirming religion
>this is directly orthoganal to the christian life denying beliefs (the meek 
>shall inherit the earth & waiting for the afterlife for your pleasures ect)

>Satanism is honesty; we are all animals; lets enjoy it rather than pose as 
>something we're not.

We are not animals.  Animals lack moral judgement.  Animals have not developed
philosophy, religion or a concept of justice.  Although, I must concede that
human beings have animal-like tendancies.  But we are able to recognize that
certain types of behavior "seem" wrong or unjust even if we disagree over
what is wrong or what is unjust.  Isn't he just telling us that we should
supress our conscience; we will "enjoy [life]" once we have? 

From what he's said so far, satanism is beginning to appear a very inward-
looking philosophy that places the interests of the individual self above
that of the collective or even individual-other good.  'The enjoyment I get
from life should not be diminished by the interests of other people.'

>Satanism is the use of all the resources available to the human animal;
>we should develop and strengthen the hidden powers of the mind.

>Satanism is self-reliance; we need no gods in our universe we call on the
>gods within us all.

This I simply don't understand.  Does God exist or doesn't he?  What's
satanic doctrine say about this?  As for self-reliance, I would think most
Christian faiths consider this very important - it is wrong to unneccesarily
burden others with problems that are solveable by you.  However, God is
present to allow Christians to atone for sin.  Human beings, who constantly
make errors, may feel obligated to atone for them by asking for forgiveness -
and even those errors that they don't know they've made. 

>These are some points to consider, I don't have the "Satanic Bible" with me
>or I would have been more eloquent in my presentation (as well as the fact
>that it is 4 a.m. and I am fashed!). The key phrase is Life-Affirming;
>Xtianity (modern day xtianity-I do not include the old Gnostic-christians
>in my sweeping generalizations; these mystics were the true followers of
>JC) is a religion of slaves,(to use a tired old phrase) an "opiate of the 
>masses" that makes them easier to control by denying them life, it denys
>people taking responsibilty for their actions;perfect anecdote:

>I had a roommate who was a devout fundamentallist Xtian. This guy used to
>harp on me for listening to music with "satanic" lyrics and try to get me
>to come to his 'meetings' (probobly because I knew more about the bible
>than he did heh-heh). This guy was screwing 3 women at once; one his 
>girlfreind of 6 years; one was a virgie who thought he was going to marry
>her; and the other was married!!! Now I personally have nothing against all
>this (and was doing his first gf anyway :)) but isn't this a little more
>serious than listening to music with nasty lyrics?? How hypocrytical...
>Not trying to say all xtians are like this;just a useful example to get a
>point across about hypocracy. The guy really believed he was saved because
>of his faith & had a holyer than thou attitude about life in general...

It's a bit of a cop-out to say it, but his roommate wasn't perfect.
And it certainly looks hypocritical.  Not knowing his roommate, I can't
imagine what he might have been thinking, but it seems not the potential
harm he was doing.  One might argue that since his roommate's first "gf" was
(I presume) consenting to becoming better-aquainted with him, any harm
done was done to each other equally and they deserve what they get.  But, for
all we know, they could have had an "open" relationship...there just isn't
enough information here to make a competent judgement about his roomate's
behaviour.

>Another key point to remember is that most Satanists are ex-christians. 

Really?  Is there any data available he has to verify this?  My "gut" tells
me this isn't reasonable.

>									 Some
>of it probobly has to do with the transition into adulthood;satanism represent
>a breaking of childhood ties to religion. This does not reduce its significanc
>in any way;after all how many xtians are xtians because they were brought up 
>that way? The least you can say about Satanism is that is a conscious
>choice in its practitioner; this represents a maturity most xtains lack; how
>many bother to question the tenets of their faith, or even know what they are.

Let me get this straight; this adherence to what he's called himself
"animal" behaviour represents a maturity Christians lack?  Although I'll
admit the nature of my question to be rhetorical, he appears ignorant of
how often I question my faith or how often others question theirs.  In fact,
it's speculation isn't it?  He has no idea how often others question their
own faith.

To those who were previously critical, I've added to your arsenal(s).  Herein
more of my personal philosophy has been exposed; I would say much more.
I'm looking forward to hearing your point(s) of view.

>Suggested reading; Prometheus Rising by Robert A Wilson
>Satanic Bible by Anton LaVey
>Black Flame and Abrasax magazine...

This is appreciated.  But the last time I checked our public and University
libraries for the "Satanic Bible" it had been stolen.

>-Scott

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|R. Ross Holder, Jr.             | Home Address:                |
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|Department of Philosophy	 | Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada   |
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