HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.greek
Followup-To: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: Re: Linovambakoi (Re: Turkish Cypriots reject ENOSIS)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 93 21:02:34 EST
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world

In article <schoinas.728037943@cs.wisc.edu> schoinas@fox.cs.wisc.edu (Yannis Schoinas) writes:

>>TURKISH CYPRIOTS ARE OF TURKISH DECENT AND THEY WILL BE THE REPRESENTATIVES
>>OF THE TURKISH RACE IN CYPRUS FOREVER. SWALLOW IT !!!!!

>Turkish race? He,he. Nice joke.

But this year a bargain has been struck in the name of the "Palikiye"
Method. Anatolia under the early Seljuks was a loosely united territory. 
But under Sultan 'Alaeddin Keykubat,' who reigned from 1219 to 1236, most 
of what is now Turkiye was united in a tolerant, pluralistic kingdom 
in which Christians and Muslim served in a common Army. Sorry, but the
Armenians sorely feel a missing glory in their background. Armenians have 
never achieved statehood and independence, they have always been subservient, 
and engaged in undermining schemes against their rulers. They committed 
genocide against the Muslim populations of Eastern Anatolia and Armenian 
Republic before and during World War I and fully participated in the 
extermination of the European Jewry during World War II. 

Now, how about some good news for a change? The Ottoman Empire expanded 
by acts of war and the Ottoman yoke was often consciously preferred to 
that of an existing tyranny. During the 16th century, for example, the
island of Cyprus was under Venetian rule. The Venetians treated the
Greek-speaking islanders like European serfs. In 1563 a number of
Cypriots, led by their priests, contacted the Ottomans and asked 
them to put the island under their care. Need I go on? Why not?

The first historical mention of Turkish-speakers comes from
Central Asia. They originated in a vast steppe area that even today
is still Turkish in ethnic makeup and includes the x-Soviet Central
Asian Republics, as well as parts of Afghanistan and China. In Central
Asia, the Turks converted to Islam in the late eighth and ninth 
centuries and gained contacts with the Middle East. Turkish rulers
and armies entered Northeastern Iran, Afghanistan, and India in the
ninth and tenth centuries. However, the mass migration of Turks
into the Western Middle East began with the movement of nomad armies
into Iran in 1037, led by the Seljuk family. Turks were by far the
largest ethnic and linguistic group in Anatolia, southwest Transcaucasia 
(today Azerbaijan), northeastern Iran, and the Crimea and its hinterlands.

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.'    (Sahak Melkonian)


Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Subject: Re: islam & ethnicity
Organization: Brown University Department of Computer Science
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 21:20:38 GMT

wmuhanna@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Waleed A Muhanna) writes:
 
# NOT by definition, no.  How many times do you have to be corrected on
# this before it registers with you?  

You don't seem to understand what I am saying, so I will repeat it
more clearly.

FACT: a child of a Moslem father does not have to formally convert
      in order to become recognized as a Moslem.

FACT: a child of a non-Moslem father does have to formally convert
      in order to become recognized as a Moslem.

Capich?

# Surely, you are not claiming you
# know more about Islam than I do.

Now that's just great. So now I can dismiss anything a non-Jew says
about Judaism, according to this argument? Sort of like when you
quote Israeli newspapers when convenient for you, but when I quote
from the same newspapers you dismiss them as "unreliable Zionist 
newspapers?". Sorry to digress, but you seem to have a problem with
the notion of symmetry.

# The procedure for conversion to Islam can hardly be called "formal".  
# Of course, a person is encouraged to learn more about Islam before
# converting.  But, there is no formal (or informal) educational process 
# that one has to complete.  There is no elaborate, formal ceremony that
# one has to perform.  To convert, you simply approach a Muslim (people 
# typically go to the 'Emam of the nearest Mosque), express your sincere 
# desire to become a Muslim, and verbally declare your solemn belief that
# ``There is no God but Allah, and Muhammad is His messenger.''
# That's it.  It's that simple.

I did not say it is not simple. Too bad, however, that so many Jews
in the past were beheaded, or, if they were lucky, deported, because
they didn't want to go through this simple process.

-Danny Keren.
From: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Freedom fighter or Terrorist
Date: 25 Jan 1993 06:50:14 GMT
Organization: Australian National University
Distribution: world
Reply-To: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au
NNTP-Posting-Host: 150.203.23.70


In article <1993Jan24.203408.25266@midway.uchicago.edu> 
        rivk@ellis.uchicago.edu (Naomi) writes:

[...most deleted by bdm...]

>In article <1jth0bINNd25@manuel.anu.edu.au> bdm@cs.anu.edu.au writes:
>>Further evidence of the moral
>>standards of Lehi members came later, when a Palmach unit composed
>>largely of former Lehi members massacred 80-100 civilians at Ad Duweima.
>>(I could provide references.)

>Wouldn't be terribly surprised, though I'd like to see the references on
>general principle. 

It is discussed in Benny Morris, The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee
Problem, mostly on the basis of the Israeli State Archives.  Here are
two newpapers references which I have not read:
Davar,  6 Sept 1979  (testimony of a participant)
Hadashot, 24 & 26 Aug 1984  (discovery of mass grave)
There is some stuff in the UN and US archives as well, I'm told.

>I am not claiming that Lechi was a decent, well-behaved
>bunch of people who used minimum violence to achieve their aims. I'm claim-
>ing I've more important things to worry about than a bunch of fruitcakes
>who were generally so out to lunch that they couldn't achieve their aims
>with or without it.

I don't see the slightest reason to regard them as more (or less) 
a "bunch of fruitcakes" than a score of other small terrorist groups, 
including Arab ones.  They seem perfectly typical to me; believe
otherwise if it makes you feel more comfortable.

Brendan.  

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.soviet
Subject: Re: "Gagging at the mess of his slashed genitals," writes Dunn.
From: Dimitri Vulis <DLVGC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Date: Tuesday, 26 Jan 1993 00:01:29 EST
Distribution: world
Organization: City University of New York/ University Computer Center

I'm asking again, why doesn't Agric ever comment on Dr. _Kevorkian_
and his DEATH MACHINE?   Is he maybe trying to avoid this issue?
There's plenty in the papers, so with his research abilities this
shouldn't be such a hard topic to cover...

Also it's not clear whether Dunn ever discovered the original
owner of the slashed genitals.  Was it possibly Vlad R.?

Dimitri
Disclaimer: CUNY is full of slashed genitals
From: aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Shaqeeqa)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Freedom fighter or Terrorist
Date: 24 Jan 93 20:12:21 GMT
Organization: University of Colorado at Denver

In article <1993Jan23.233141.19278@midway.uchicago.edu> rivk@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>
>First of all, John, why do you use my name when you're not quoting anything
>I said?

Maybe its love Noora ;-)


The other Noor(a) ...

;-)  Anisa

Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:26269 soc.culture.greek:12519 soc.culture.turkish:15000 soc.rights.human:4984
From: ehrlich@bimacs.BITNET (Gideon Ehrlich)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: ITERFADA WATCH
Date: 27 Jan 93 18:37:02 GMT
Organization: Math department, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, ISRAEL

In article <5022@copper.Denver.Colorado.EDU>
aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Shaqeeqa) writes:

>In article <4668@bimacs.BITNET> ehrlich@bimacs.BITNET (Gideon Ehrlich) writes:
>
>#Bellow find the INTERFADA death toll.
>#( Through January 10 1993 )
>>
>#Killed for "cooperation with the authorities"    769
>#killed in internment camps                        43
>#killed incidentally in actions against Jews        6
># TOTAL                                           818
>
( Anisa  Shaqeeqa) :
>
>[nonsense deleted]
>
>Where did you obtain the above information?
>
>Don't try and shift the argument with useless and absurd
>comments.
>
>Anisa

It seemed that Anisa agree that the facts I did presented do prove
the weekness of her usual propaganda.

My source is the last Yesha report , based on the statistics of the
center for information "UVDA" (fact) , proved so far to be relaiable
source.

WE SHALL OVERCOME     gideon Ehrlich   ERETZ YISRAEL

Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:26422 soc.culture.greek:12686 soc.culture.europe:11513 soc.history:11063 soc.culture.turkish:15188 soc.rights.human:5032
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,soc.history,soc.culture.turkish,soc.rights.human
Followup-To: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: Watching the Azeri Genocide in Karabag: ASALA/SDPA/ARF Nazis/Criminals.
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 93 21:34:35 EST
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world

mpoly@panix.com (Michael Polymenakos)
<C1JLtt.F54@panix.com>

>Why the shortages then? Very simple: No money, no fuel. The Skopjie
>government is using Greece's policy on "Macedonia" papers to cover up its
>inability to buy fuel for the former republic.

Magic. Now I happen to like "polpols" a lot. See you are one of them.

The Roman poet Petroni's definition of an Armenian is: 

"Armenians too are human beings, but at home they walk on their
 fours."

The Russian poet Lermantof's definition has yet another approach:

"You are a slave, and a coward. You are an Armenian."


	Milliyet, March 3, 1992, Page 5, by Necati Dogru

 		SUSHA BLOOD LAKE, AGDAM BURNING

Armenians attacked the last Azeri Stronghold in Karabag, Susha,
with tanks, artillery, Stingers.

Susha turned into a blood lake.

Hundreds of Azeris were killed.

Ex-Red-Army soldiers, too, are supporting the Armenian gangs who are using
French helicopters. Agdam is in fires.

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)
From: odattn@.ic.ac.uk (Mr O. Dattner)
Subject: Re: US attack on IRAQ - illegal
Organization: Imperial College
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 93 11:14:33 GMT

In article <1483500323@igc.apc.org> cpr@igc.apc.org (Center for Policy Research) writes:
>
>US attack against Iraq contravenes international law.
>----------------------------------------------------
>
>
>As much as it is possible to glean from news, the
>recent attacks by US forces on Iraqi soil are a blatant
>violation of the U.N. Charter and of international law. I have
>not found a single reference in the U.N. Charter allowing
>one state to bomb another state, unless in self-defenese, and
>even then only according to rules of war. I dod not hear
>that Iaq was attacking the United States of America, nor heard of
>Iraqi soldiers marching down the alleys of Washington
>DC. 
>
>I have not heard either that the Security Council has
>authorized military attacks on Iraq as a means to enforce
>U.N. resolutions. I do not know how the Council could any
>how make such resolutions, as these would have no legal base
>in the Charter.
>
>The U.S. is clearly uninterested in such niceties as
>internationalk law and UN Charter.I have nothing to say about
>such open and cynical attitude. I prefer it to P/R talk.
>
>But the ciommon people, you and me, in Iceland, America and the
>Middle East, will have to defend ourselves against States
>who place their military interests above the law. We should
>distance ourselves from such crimes and call for the
>punishment of those who commit them and make this world a jungle.
>It does not matter whether this people are anglo-saxons, Arabs
>, Chinese or Jews. The law is the same for everybody.
>
>If Saddam Hussein is to be tried for war crimes, let the US
>government issue a warrant for his arrest and invite him to
>defend himself according to due process. This should also be
>done to other war criminals, such as Bush and Rabin, Pol Pot and
>others. It is not fair to execute these people by extra-judicial means,a,
>as some trigger-happy people would like.

1. I don't know enough to comment on Pol Pot but comparing Bush or Rabin to 
   Sadaam Hussein is ridiculous in the extreme

2. I am sure that as soon as the US government issued a warrant for his arrest
   Sadaam Hussein would hop on the nearest plane and fly out to the US (or
   wherever) like the good citizen of the world that he is. GET REAL!!!!!!

Ori
From: rivk@ellis.uchicago.edu (nora gayle rivkis)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Freedom fighter or Terrorist
Date: 23 Jan 93 23:31:41 GMT
Reply-To: rivk@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago

In article <1j9tmrINN4i6@life.ai.mit.edu> steel@hal.gnu.ai.mit.edu (JLE) writes:
>In article <1993Jan16.172150.11857@midway.uchicago.edu> rivk@midway.uchicago.edu writes:

First of all, John, why do you use my name when you're not quoting anything
I said?


Eric Perlman wrote, and that's who you're answering...
>>>: 4.  Both the PLO and pre-1964 Palestinian Fedayeen groups acted mostly
>>>: against civilians.  Such is anything but the mark of a guerilla army -
>>>: it's the mark of terrorism.
>
>If the existence of israel on other people's land is terrorism in 
>itself,

"My words mean what I want 'em to mean, that's what I pays 'em their
wages for." The word "terrorism" does not include among its definitions
existing on somebody else's land even if you assume that Israel *is*
on somebody else's land. There are lots of other nasty words you can find
to use for Israel's existence without using ones that have absolutely no
semantic connection to what you're talking about.

>jle

	-Naomi

-- 
Oseh shalom b'imromav, hu ya'aseh shalom, aleinu v'al kol Yisrael.
From: aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Shaqeeqa)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: ITERFADA WATCH
Date: 26 Jan 93 07:09:55 GMT
Organization: University of Colorado at Denver

In article <4668@bimacs.BITNET> ehrlich@bimacs.BITNET (Gideon Ehrlich) writes:

#Bellow find the INTERFADA death toll.
#( Through January 10 1993 )
>
#Killed for "cooperation with the authorities"    769
#killed in internment camps                        43
#killed incidentally in actions against Jews        6
# TOTAL                                           818

>What is the purpose of that racial comment?

How did you perceive that to be a racial comment?

[nonsense deleted]

Gideon, you still failed to answer my question.

Where did you obtain the above information?

Don't try and shift the argument with useless and absurd
comments.

Anisa
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf)
Subject: Re: EXPELLED PALESTINIANS INCLUDE ACTIVISTS AND TEACHERS
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 04:50:37 GMT

The whole point is that most of them are Hamas leaders, not actual
guerillas.  They plan and incite the violence, not actually commit.
Also, many of them have past criminal records.

Here are some selected sections of the Hamas Covenant which these
"teachers and doctors" uphold:

"The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said: "The Day
ofJudgement will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews, when the
Jew will hide behind stones and trees...There is not solution for the
Palestine Question except through Jihad...Palestine is an Islamic land."

"Our enemies [the Jews] took control of the world media.  They were behind
the French REvolution and the Communist Revolution.  They were behind world
war I...They were behind World War II, through which they made huge financial
gains by trading in arnaments, and paved the way for the establishment of their
state...There is no war going on anywhere without them having their fingers
in it."

"The Zionest plan is limitless. After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand
from the Nile to the Euphrates.  When they will have the region they overtook,
they will aspire to further expansion, and so on...Leaving the circle of 
struggle with Zionism is high treason, and cursed be he who does that."

This is the treatise of those fine intellectuals.

Ed.

Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:26216 talk.politics.soviet:10698 soc.culture.greek:12486 soc.culture.europe:11387 soc.history:10943 soc.culture.soviet:12361 soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna:1354 soc.culture.croatia:497 soc.culture.yugoslavia:10682
From: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: All Arabs are guilty
Date: 22 Jan 1993 07:30:19 GMT
Organization: Australian National University
Distribution: world
Reply-To: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au
NNTP-Posting-Host: 150.203.23.70

In article 1@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu, ifaz706@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu () writes:
>In article <1jgsgmINN4hv@tyl.anu.edu.au>, bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay) writes:
>> ifaz706@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu writes:
>> [...]
>>>	But in order not to leave the scene in this defensive note,
>>>	here's a quote from BG regarding the commission's recommendation:
>>>	"The more I study the recommendations of the commission, I see
>>>	above all the terrible difficulty in uprooting, by foreign force,
>>>	some 100,000 Arabs from vilages which they have inhabited for
>>>	hundreds of years." 
>> 
>>>		[Incidently, Ben Gurion Diary, 12 July, 1937 -- the same 
>>>		as your quote! Have you failed to notice this entry, 
>>>		Joseph?] 
 
>> Recognising the difficulty of something is a far cry from having
>> moral qualms about it.  
>
>	I read BG's comment as indicating a moral, rather than a
>	physical difficulty. Don't you? 

Not at all.  He wrote of "terrible difficulty", not "terrible injustice".
Given Teveth's manifest admiration for BG makes it seem unlikely he
would translate it in this critical way on purpose.  However, I admit
this argument is circumstantial.
	
>	Does someone have the Hebrew original of this quote from BG's
>	diary?

There is a Hebrew version of Teveth's book: Ben-Guryon 
ve-`Arviye Erets-Yisra'el : me-hashlamah le-milhamah (Shoken, 1985)
but I don't have it.

>This is one of many examples where Teveth
>> fails to provide evidence for his assertions.  

>	Which assertion are you refering to? What are the other 
>	examples you have in mind?

Teveth's discussion on the matter of transfer ca 1937-8 portrays
BG as someone with deep moral qualms about the proposals he was
nevertheless supporting for pragmatic reasons.  However, if that
is a correct picture, why did not Teveth provide us with evidence
of BG's moral qualms?   The quotations he gives make BG appear
more like someone whose only hesitation was on the matter of
whether these proposals could be practically implemented.  

Brendan.
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Followup-To: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: Re: Saddam Hussein
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 93 20:23:02 EST
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world

In article <1993Jan20.140804.26626@ifi.uio.no> michaelp@ifi.uio.no (Michael Schalom Preminger) writes:

>Turky does not want the kurds to become a political power, and
>the U.S does not want Iran to have political influence in south Iraq.

Where in the world did you dig up the above rhetoric? Can you 
document it? When the borders of the new Turkish state were 
drawn up at the start of the Turkish Independence War (1919-1923) 
the Kurds were asked whether they considered themselves part of 
the ultimate Turkish homeland. At a time when the victors of the
First World War were planning to give a large part of Eastern
Anatolia to a Kurdish state, just for the heck of breaking
up Ottoman lands, the Kurds did not want to form their own
state, but made common cause with the Turks with whom they
have been living together for centuries. After almost 70
years many of them have been fully integrated in the Turkish 
society and political life. The Foreign Minister of the new
government is one of them. 

Can't you see a bit difference between a democratic state and a
totalitarian state? The people of Turkiye want every citizen
of the Turkish Republic to enjoy the benefits provided to them
by the Constitution. That means everyone is a first class Turkish
citizen, irrespective of their ethnic background. The fact that
Septioglu and Zana are at the helm of the Parliament today proves
that this system is functioning properly. Turkiye's citizens of
Kurdish origin, along with other citizens who are living in
Turkiye's southeastern regions, have been harassed by separatists
for the past seven years. The people who were already being
terrorized by the KGB's puppets were also subjected to 
repression of all kinds and thus were trapped between the 
state forces and the terrorists. Read the Lausanne Agreement 
and the Turkish Constitution before you post. What is clear is 
that when democracy works properly and all Turks are treated like 
first class citizens, then the outcome can only make one proud.

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.'    (Sahak Melkonian)
From: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Name of Palestinian Deportees (part i)
Date: 24 Jan 1993 07:40:23 GMT
Organization: Australian National University
Distribution: world
Reply-To: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au
NNTP-Posting-Host: 150.203.23.70

In article 14338@nysernet.org, astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein) writes:

>When one voluntarily abandons
>property, there is no obligation to compensate him or her for it.

I never thought of that.  I'd better rush home before my
neighbours realise my house is theirs for the taking.
 
>Alan H. Stein                     astein@israel.nysernet.org

Brendan.

Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:26418 soc.culture.greek:12681 soc.history:11060