From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: Nazi camps
Originator: news@nimaster
Reply-To: roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig)
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 15:12:41 GMT

In article <1992Sep19.131854.769@walter.cray.com> aleks@cray.com (Aleksander Mazur) writes:

>In article <1992Sep18.180604.17805@cbnewsl.cb.att.com> sethr@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (seth.r.rosenthal) writes:
>

>>This is a remnant of 18th and early 19th century attitudes.  The extreme
>>Orthodox tended to keep to themselves, but then again they
>>weren't in very visible professions, doing business largely with
>>other Jews.  Polish Jewry was emerging from its shell between 1850-1939
>>Although still Orthodox, most were
>>becoming integrated into Polish life.  Lots of doctors, pharmacists,
>>engineers, etc.  The old stereotype of the Jew was rapidly disappearing.
>>I think your pre-war Polish friends were using old stereotypes too.
>>In Warsaw, Lodz and Cracow an assimilated middle class of Jews
>>had developed.  Religiously they were still seperate,
>>but most now spoke Polish, even my grandmother spoke perfect
>>Polish (although maybe accented to a Pole).  As the Jewish seats in
>>the Universities were being slowly abandoned, Jews were getting
>>University degrees in large numbers, many were musicians
>>and opera singers, etc.

>Cetainly there were many signs of assimiliation of Jews within
>thhhhhhhhhe rest of society in prewar Poland. What I was told and what I was
>stressing was that despite several signs of assimiliation there
>was still strong tendency among Jews to be separately organized.

Was it their doing entirely, or were there also obstacles to assimilation
placed in their way?

>It resulted e.g. in sharp divisions in labor movements - separate
>trade unions and associations for Jews and Christians. Such

Who came first, I wonder?  And how were the unions structured?  In other
countries, trade unions were sometimes segregated because the Gentile
union was Christian, e.g., insisting on having Christian prayers, connections
to the church, etc.  In short, Jewish membership was, to put it mildly,
discouraged.  Was this never the case in Poland?

>a division led to economic competition that was seen as
>struggle between Christians and Jews unfortunately. Thats what I 
>wanted to stress.

And I want to stress that it's unlikely that the competition was 
initiated by the Jews.  Especially the assimilated ones.

>>Many of those Jews were born in Poland weren't they?
>>Didn't Germany expel across the border Jews born in Poland.
>>The Germans considered them Polish citizens.

>I do not think that significant number of those Jews (more than 600000)
>were born in Poland which for most of them did not exist
>during time they were born. They were expelled accordingly
>to official policy toward Jews, most of them had their property
>confiscated (Mein Kampf ?).

Depends where you're talking about.  In Upper Silesia, which was divided
by plebiscite in 1920, a League of Nations protectorate prohibited 
discrimination agaist minorities until it expired in 1937.  This was
originally intended to protect Germans in the Polish part and Poles in the
German part, but wound up protecting Jews as well -- the Nuremberg laws
didn't take effect until 1937 in the German portion, 2 years after they
isolated the Jews in the rest of Germany.                       

After that time, there were expulsions and confiscations there, I think.

As for where one was born, the Germans tended to look at where the
birthplace was located at the time of expulsion, i.e., in what country.

Oh, and, btw, what does Mein Kampf (1925) have to do with anything?

Just asking.

Roger

Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish