HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jovanovic-nick@cs.yale.edu (Nick Jovanovic)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.croatia
Subject: Re: What's the point of S.C.C??
Date: 16 Dec 1992 17:53:11 -0500
Organization: Yale University Computer Science Dept., New Haven, CT 06520-2158
NNTP-Posting-Host: zoo-gw.cs.yale.edu

In article <1992Dec16.215719.5626@bas-a.bcc.ac.uk> nino@mph.sm.ucl.ac.uk (Nino Margetic) writes:
>
>I have received the following message. I am not sure whether it was
>ment to be published on this forum or not, but since it expresses my
                                                      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>feelings also, I couldn't resist the temptation to make it available to
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>the wider audience of this forum.
>
>--------------------------- forwarded message ----------------------------
>From: Dubravka
>Subject: ??? SUBSCRIBERS
>
>Dear Nino,
>
[stuff deleted]

>        I was under the opinion that WE (Croatians) from all regions of
>this planet were to be able to communicate and voice OUR opinions on
>different subjects.  (I do not want to be branded as an isolationist but
>they do have s.c.Yu.)   And be able to interact with each other on all
>positions, political, scientific, folklore, etc, even maybe recipes and the
>like.   (For example, I would love to find out how Croatian dance groups in
>Europe are doing financially [are they funded by church groups]  where do
>they get their music and costumes, and All I find is Milan Stojanovic
>castrating our people (it's enough that this is being condoned in our
>homeland but why here) on OUR OWN NETWORK!!!!!!  OR  this Daniel Chukurov. 
>WHY???????????  This was to be our catenate to our sisters and brothers.
                           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

>        I'm sorry but I've seen Croatians denied access to Croatian
>networks and I, for one, would like to see at least these two banned from
>s.c.CRO.  [IF AT ALL POSSIBLE]
>


1)  This network is public; it is not _yours_. 

2)  Serbs live in Croatia, and so it is also _theirs_ even if this
    were not a public network, but instead, purely a Croatian one.

3)  The two of you, along with Mladen Wickerhauser, ought to learn how to
    work together with other people instead of trying to censor them, 
    or in any other way deny them their freedom of speech.

4)  What is stopping you from using this newsgroup for the purposes you
    mentioned?  You have access, use it!

5)  I really doubt that Milan Stojanovic has _castrated_ anybody by typing
    on his keyboard to this newsgroup, or by any other act of his.

-Nick


Xref: sparky soc.culture.croatia:166 soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna:911
From: pavlovic-milan@yale.edu (Milan Pavlovic)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.croatia,soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
Subject: Re: WWII, again (was Re: Dr. Mishitch, the Bishop of Mostar)
Date: 20 Dec 1992 20:43:57 -0500
Organization: Yale University Science & Engineering UNIX(tm), New Haven, CT 06520-2158
NNTP-Posting-Host: minerva.cis.yale.edu

In article <BzJ3Mp.CBK@me.utoronto.ca> arnsenad@me.utoronto.ca (Senad Arnautovic) writes:
>
>Independent Bosnia and Hercegovina bothers Mr. Stojanovic even more.
>In the case of B-H, he cannot even find historical arguments to justify
>the Serbian genocide on B-H people except that "during WWII B-H was
>part of Croatia".
>
>And B-H should exist with as well. Being multi-ethnical country, it can
>show how people can live peacefully together when there are no external
>interferences.
>
>Senad H. Arnautovic

  Excuse me?  Did I read what I think I read?  How can you tell me ANYTHING
about multiculturalism after what the muslims did to Serbs in Foca in the
fall of 1990?  

  And what's with these attacks on Milan Stojanovic?  I see, you guys thought
you could shut him up by uniting your attacks against him at once, and he had 
to reply to all your nonsense.  Well guess what, you losers, he's not alone 
any more!

Milan Pavlovic
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From: pshane@andromeda.rutgers.edu (Ana M. Shane)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.croatia
Subject: Re: Ana M. Shane this is s.c.c
Date: 20 Dec 92 07:39:14 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

ljubicic@mundil.cs.mu.OZ.AU (Robert LJUBICIC) writes:


>Ana please refer to the Croatian language as Croatian and nothing else.
>If you insist on using terms that are redundant and offensive, such
>as "Serbo-Croatian" I suggest you use soc.culture.yugoslavia.

If there is Croatian language, and if there is Serbian language, and
if there is even Bosnian language, there also is Serbo-Croatian and
another one, Croato-Serbian. There are people who speak these two
languages! I am one of them. That is what *I* speak. But I'll be glad
to speak Croatian with you, if you can't understand me otherwise.


>BOG I HRVATI - ZA DOM SPREMNI!
>Robert Ljubicic

A language should not be an obstacle between peoples, ne?
Ana


  With hopes for peace

               ___      ___
       ___   _/   \    /  //                                  
          \_/  @   \  /  //    _/////                         
          /|-\_     \/  //   _/   _/                          
           |   \     \__//__/   _/                            
        ()/     \           __ /                              
        / ()     \_    \____  |////<                          
      ()           \_       \_______\                         
                     \______/                                 


Ana M. Shane                              voice: (215)-843-2909
334 Winona St.
Philadelphia, PA 19144      e-mail: pshane@andromeda.rutgers.edu
From: wickerhauser-victor@math.yale.edu (Victor Wickerhauser)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.croatia
Subject: Croatian
Date: 15 Dec 1992 01:31:20 -0500
Organization: Yale University Mathematics Dept., New Haven, CT 06520-2155
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: math-gw.cs.yale.edu

I now have in my possession a certificate of completion for a course
in "Intermediate Croatian" from the local community college.  We were
taught from pre-1918 texts, and learned certain Croatian literary
grammatical forms which had faded but are being revived.

There were six other students, and the course will be offered next
semester as well.

The Croatian language -- alive and well in St. Louis.

Pozdrav,
Victor
-- 
Prof. M. Victor Wickerhauser                      <victor@kirk.wustl.edu>
Department of Mathematics, Washington University, St. Louis, MO 63130 USA
Telephone:  USA(314)935-6771, USA(314)727-0749;     FAX: USA(314)727-4963
Sto se ljuckim trudom uzdignulo, Ljuckim znojem jopet se ponavlja. --Medo Pucic
From: barle@central.rutgers.edu (Stanko Barle)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.croatia
Subject: First rulers of Croatia (?)
Keywords: history
Date: 18 Dec 92 03:31:15 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.


Can anybody answer a question for me, either to
soc.culture.croatia, or directly by e-mail.

Who was the first known ruler of Croatia or of a part
of Croatia and (I would especially like to know this
part) _when_ did that first known ruler(s) rule?

Was it in the seventh or in the eight century?

For some reason I have the year 675. stored in my
mind, but that seems to be a little early.


Thanks in advance,
		Stanko Barle
Newsgroups: soc.culture.croatia,soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
From: josip@eng.umd.edu (Josip Loncaric)
Subject: Population (was: Re: Dr. Mishitch, the Bishop of Mostar)
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 92 15:59:40 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland

In article <1992Dec16.191342.18582@husc3.harvard.edu> stojanov@husc11.harvard.edu (Milan Stojanovic) writes:
>
>Also note that Croats claim certain parts where these events happened.
>Serbs used to outnumber Croats seven to one in Mostar in 1870! 
>In 1991 there are no Serbs left in Mostar.

Who counted?  Are any of the 1870 Serbs still living now, 122 years later?
When did the Mostar Serbs move out?  In 1991 or earlier?  Why?  Why does
Karadzic claim half of Mostar if there are no Serbs there?  Also, how
come that today the number of Serbs in Sarajevo has been reduced?  Why
is it that the population of many cities (Vukovar, Mostar, Sarajevo, Jajce,
Gradacac, etc.) declined in the past year?  Wouldn't Serbian shelling
have something to do with that?

Your argument (122 years ago there was one ratio, now there is
another) doesn't make any conclusions, but tries to imply unfairness
of some sort.  This is a poor argument.  Consider the following:

Just after Yugoslavia was formed, the 1921 census shows that the population 
of present-day Croatia (3.1 million) exceeded the population of 
present-day Serbia proper (2.9 million).  In 1981, the situation was reversed:
the population of Serbia proper (5.7 million) exceeded the population of 
Croatia (4.6 million).

Unfair?  Perhaps... in Yugoslavia, Croatia was subjected to all kinds
of pressure... without opportunity at home, many of its citizens
emigrated; its young people found it very difficult to start families; etc.
Whatever the case may be, in terms of population, Croatia lost relative
to Serbia proper.  

--Josip

P.S. Yes, I know that in 1921 Yugoslavia had different reporting
units.  But, there was a census on January 31, 1921.  This census was
used by the Federal Bureau of Statistics, Belgrade, to convert population
figures into figures for post-WWII reporting units.  See "Stanovnistvo
Jugoslavije i socijalistickih republika 1921-1961", by V. Simeunovic,
Savezni zavod za statistiku, Beograd 1964; also "Radni dokument broj 32",
Republicki zavod za statistiku SR Srbije, Beograd, 1968.  The 1921 census
allows statisticians to form an accurate picture of the population by area.


Xref: sparky soc.culture.croatia:111 soc.culture.yugoslavia:10112 soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna:867
From: jovanovic-nick@cs.yale.edu (Nick Jovanovic)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.croatia,soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
Subject: Re: Dr. Mishitch, the Bishop of Mostar
Date: 17 Dec 1992 12:10:21 -0500
Organization: Yale University Computer Science Dept., New Haven, CT 06520-2158
NNTP-Posting-Host: zoo-gw.cs.yale.edu

In article <1992Dec16.191342.18582@husc3.harvard.edu> stojanov@husc11.harvard.edu (Milan Stojanovic) writes:
>
>Also note that Croats claim certain parts where these events happened.
>Serbs used to outnumber Croats seven to one in Mostar in 1870! 
>In 1991 there are no Serbs left in Mostar.
>

Last night (12/16) on ABC's Nightline, it was noted that before the current
war, Mostar was one third Muslim, but now no Muslims are there.  Nightline 
implied in their statement that the Muslims in Mostar had been ethnically
cleansed by Serbs, whereas, in reality, only Croatians are in Mostar now. 
Shame on Nightline.

-Nick



Xref: sparky soc.culture.croatia:165 soc.culture.yugoslavia:10184 soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna:910
From: pavlovic-milan@yale.edu (Milan Pavlovic)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.croatia,soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
Subject: Re: WWII, again (was Re: Dr. Mishitch, the Bishop of Mostar)
Date: 21 Dec 92 01:36:45 GMT
Organization: Yale University Science & Engineering UNIX(tm), New Haven, CT 06520-2158
NNTP-Posting-Host: minerva.cis.yale.edu

In article <BzIL9D.I7o@ecf.toronto.edu> blazic@ecf.toronto.edu (BLAZIC Joseph R) writes:
>In article <1992Dec19.101035.18694@husc3.harvard.edu> stojanov@husc11.harvard.edu (Milan Stojanovic) writes:

>>And you are, with all due respect, Joe. Mr. Loncaric is not 
>>ignorant, on the contrary, he is just evil.
>
>Meaning how dare I ask quesions, and that you don't like what he
>writes.  BTW, thank you (really) for the references.
>
>>I am well below extreme. 
>
>If this is true, then I'd hate to meet someone 'extreme.'  ;-)
>
>/Joe Blazic

  Let me just add a couple things here, Joe. First, I fully agree with Milan
about Josip, and I also think that Josip is a communist - not only does he
not condemn post WWII communist rule in Yugoslavia, but he also accepts 
commie propaganda - like the 1948 population census.

  And if you'd like to meet some extreme folks out there, then I suggest you
make a trip to Chicago and meet up with Crow, Matanic, and the rest of the
fanatics. Maybe you should make a stop in St. Louis, too, just to see yet
another Ustashi.  Although there isn't that much to see about Dr. Wickerhauser
anyway, just his big bald head, and maybe a thing or two about his data 
compression research.  Boring stuff, if you ask me.

Regards,
Milan Pavlovic
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From: dani@infopls.chi.il.us (Danijela Mlinaric)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.croatia
Subject: THIS NET
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 92 12:52:34 CST
Organization: INFOPLUS support, Wheeling, IL

I am very glad that Soc.culture.CROATIA has finally been set up!  I am 
very interested on what people are going to say.  To Damir Gabelica is a 
political.  Once again I am very happy that Soc.culture.CROATIA is up.

Zivili Hrvati!!!!

Danijela
(SOKICA)

--
dani@infopls.chi.il.us (Danijela Mlinaric)
Infoplus BBS, +1 708 537 0247, v32bis. Home of Infoplus.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.croatia,soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
From: josip@eng.umd.edu (Josip Loncaric)
Subject: Re: Dr. Mishitch, the Bishop of Mostar
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 92 17:10:35 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland

In article <1992Dec17.160420.18632@husc3.harvard.edu> stojanov@husc11.harvard.edu (Milan Stojanovic) writes:
>
>Friendly relationship will occur when Croatian president offers to go 
>to Jasenovac and apologise there for few hundred thousand Serbs that 
>died there. 
>
There you go again...  you know very well that the Croatian president
is willing to apologize for what Ustashas did, but that nobody in this
world would accept the blame for your inflated figures.  Yes, Ustashas
killed tens of thousands of Serbs in Jasenovac, and Croats reject this
as criminal.  Croats in general feel strongly that Ustashas' crime 
must not be reduced.  However, it must not be inflated either.  So
let us agree to accept the conclusions of the studies based on actual
counting: demographic studies, census data, victim lists, etc.  

When you do that, you'll find that the victims of fascist terror from
the territory of present day Croatia (which includes Jasenovac)
of all nationalities combined, mostly died in their towns and villages
(79,700 persons), fewer of them died in concentration camps (47,100), and
fewer still in bombings etc. (8,600).  These numbers do not include the
persons from Bosnia-Herzegovina and Srijem.  But even assuming that some
of the 85,000 persons from Bosnia-Herzegovina and the 9,683 persons
from Srijem who died in concentration camps were brought to Jasenovac
and killed there (not all of them Serbs), the evidence points to the 
inescapable conclusion that Serbian militants are inflating Jasenovac by 
an order of magnitude and waving it as a bloody shirt in front of 
their people in order to get the Serbs to carry out another genocide today.
This is why Croats reject Serbian militants' inflated figures.  This is
why Serbian nationalist mythology is dangerous, and why it needs a dose 
of reality.

--Josip
From: n.margetic@ucl.ac.uk (Nino Margetic)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.croatia
Subject: What's the point of S.C.C??
Date: 16 Dec 92 21:57:19 GMT
Reply-To: nino@mph.sm.ucl.ac.uk (Nino Margetic)
Organization: University College London


I have received the following message. I am not sure whether it was
ment to be published on this forum or not, but since it expresses my
feelings also, I couldn't resist the temptation to make it available to
the wider audience of this forum.

However, as ever before, I will not reply to any comments from the
people mentioned below, or their advocates. Sorry, but I have no
stomach for that kind of talk.

--Nino

--------------------------- forwarded message ----------------------------
From: Dubravka
Subject: ??? SUBSCRIBERS

Dear Nino,

        I have read the digests you have so kindly been sending out.  I do
thank you for them!!!

        But if this network is going to become a stamping grounds for the
serbs, chetniks, agressors, etc.  why was this group ever created???  This
is the same filth that is transmitted through s.c.Yu and s.c.BiH.  

        I was under the opinion that WE (Croatians) from all regions of
this planet were to be able to communicate and voice OUR opinions on
different subjects.  (I do not want to be branded as an isolationist but
they do have s.c.Yu.)   And be able to interact with each other on all
positions, political, scientific, folklore, etc, even maybe recipes and the
like.   (For example, I would love to find out how Croatian dance groups in
Europe are doing financially [are they funded by church groups]  where do
they get their music and costumes, and All I find is Milan Stojanovic
castrating our people (it's enough that this is being condoned in our
homeland but why here) on OUR OWN NETWORK!!!!!!  OR  this Daniel Chukurov. 
WHY???????????  This was to be our catenate to our sisters and brothers.

        I'm sorry but I've seen Croatians denied access to Croatian
networks and I, for one, would like to see at least these two banned from
s.c.CRO.  [IF AT ALL POSSIBLE]

        My opinion, and wish, for what it is worth.

        Srdacne pozdrave, Dubravka

----------------------------- end ---------------------------------------

--
Janet: n.margetic@uk.ac.ucl                \     Nino Margetic         
Earn/Bitnet/Internet: n.margetic@ucl.ac.uk  \    University College London, UK
Bang: ...!mcvax!uknet!ucl!n.margetic         \   +44 71 387 9300 /x 53 13
Xref: sparky soc.culture.croatia:127 soc.culture.turkish:13341
From: br314@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Davor Cubranic)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.croatia,soc.culture.turkish
Subject: Re: Serdar Argic and Armenian suffering in the 19th century.
Date: 18 Dec 1992 08:42:05 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


Da uputim odgovor Milanu (javno, da svi znaju moj stav):
Na stranu to sto su tvoje brojke preuvelicane, ali ako bas hoces
znati, ja ne podrazavam Ustase niti njihovu politiku (sto je sad
ovo, Hrvat koji nije Ustasoidan?).  Sad, da li me boli kita sto 
se tice zrtava drugog svjetskog rata, da i ne.  Mislim, sta bih
ja tu sad trebao napraviti, osim osigurati se da se tako nesto 
nikad ne ponovi.  Mozes biti siguran, Milane, da necu nikada
dati svoj glas u izborima nekoj bandi ubojica, ali ipak, da
ponovim svoj stav: Hrvatska danas nije Hrvatska iz '41, prema 
tome prestani tupit o NDH i pogledaj sta nam (Hrvatima) Srbi
rade--ta se svakom postenom covjeku zgadi na sta je tzv. homo
sapiens (?) sposoban.

	Davor Cubranic
Xref: sparky soc.culture.croatia:147 soc.culture.yugoslavia:10156 soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna:891
From: josip@eng.umd.edu (Josip Loncaric)
Subject: Re: WWII, again (was Re: Dr. Mishitch, the Bishop of Mostar)
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 92 20:53:45 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland

In article <1992Dec19.104203.18696@husc3.harvard.edu> stojanov@husc11.harvard.edu (Milan Stojanovic) writes:
>Mr. Loncaric is joined by Mr. Blazic in questioning the 
>number of Serbs killed by Croats during the WWII.
>
>Now, excerpts from the hearing of the ex-Franciscan Miroslav
>Majstorovic Filipovic before the Commission to Determine 
>War Crimes, Document number 2006.

[ quoted document ]

>So he admits that during the 4.5 months  20-30.000 people 
>were killed.  Jasenovac camp run for ten times as long.
>Some periods, when Germans complained, were slower then
>others ( 1943 ) but other were worse that Majstorovic's
>( 1944-1945 ).  I am not taking into account the possibillity
>that he is trying to reduce his criminal activities here.
>
>Milan N. Stojanovic

This document itself is consistent with what the studies I had 
quoted had said.  The problem is that Mr. Stojanovic is
extrapolating from one period to a duration ten times as long.
This method is known to be very inaccurate.  We can expect that
such extrapolations and the actual count would be at odds, and
indeed they are.

Now, if Mr. Filipovic thought that he could "reduce his criminal
activities" by claiming "only" 20-30.000 were killed, that's
his lunacy.  There is no incentive, except confessing the truth,
to admit to killing 20,000 but not 20,001.  Mr. Stojanovic's
assumption that the real number is possibly higher is yet
another factor which could lead to "victim inflation".  And in
the end, when such assumptions produce estimates at odds with
census data, then Mr. Stojanovic concludes the census was no good.

--Josip

Newsgroups: soc.culture.croatia
From: jovanovic-nick@cs.yale.edu (Nick Jovanovic)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.croatia
Subject: Re: What's the point of S.C.C??
Date: 17 Dec 1992 13:39:51 -0500
Organization: Yale University Computer Science Dept., New Haven, CT 06520-2158
NNTP-Posting-Host: zoo-gw.cs.yale.edu

In article <BzDoAv.2nF@ecf.toronto.edu> blazic@ecf.toronto.edu (BLAZIC Joseph R) writes:
>In article <1goc0nINN8uj@SUNED.ZOO.CS.YALE.EDU> jovanovic-nick@cs.yale.edu (Nick Jovanovic) writes:
>>1)  This network is public; it is not _yours_. 
>>
>>2)  Serbs live in Croatia, and so it is also _theirs_ even if this
>>    were not a public network, but instead, purely a Croatian one.
>
>Nick is right here.  The newsgroup is soc.culture.croatia, not croatiaN.
>As well, of course it is public.  The problem is not with postings in 
>S.C.C. per se, but "useless postings" on Usenet in general.  Am I alone
>in these opinions?
>

Thank you, Joe.  I appreciate your public support and return the favor.
You are definitely not alone in your opinion that Usenet is sometimes
more of a UseLESSnet.

-Nick
 

Xref: sparky soc.culture.croatia:163 soc.culture.yugoslavia:10180 soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna:906
From: pavlovic-milan@yale.edu (Milan Pavlovic)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.croatia,soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
Subject: Sharon's at it again.
Date: 21 Dec 92 00:33:58 GMT
Organization: Yale University Science & Engineering UNIX(tm), New Haven, CT 06520-2158
NNTP-Posting-Host: minerva.cis.yale.edu

In article <1992Dec20.165349.334@unixland.natick.ma.us> sharon@unixland.natick.ma.us (Sharon Machlis Gartenberg) writes:
>stojanov@husc11.harvard.edu (Milan Stojanovic) writes:
>
>>[ I have to add my comment here.  He was accused on German
>>court for participating in mass killings of Serbs around
>>Banja Luka!  He was supposed to be executed, but Croatian
>>government saved him. Upon insistance of the German military
>>authorities and Italians he lost his priesthood, as only punishment!
>>That did not stop him going around Jasenovac in black robe.
>>of course Joe would fail to see why Serbs do not want to 
>>live under Croatian-Muslim coalition ]
>
>Still no one has been able to explain to me why the Serbs claim to see
>a rebirth of World-War-II Nazis in an independent Bosnia-Herzegovina
>but the Jews do not. I am not talking about the international
>Jewish community, but the Jewish community of Sarajevo, which would be
>living under the Bosnian government just as the Serbs would.
>

  Well, let me tell you something, Sharon.  Back in 1990, there were 
anti-Serbian riots in the town of Foca, which is in Bosnia. Then the Serbs in
Foca wanted to protest against discrimination from the muslim majority in the 
town, but the brutal commie police forces forbade the Serbs from holding any 
demonstration or saying anything public about being oppressed by the majority 
muslims. This is but one example of the Serbian suffering in Bosnia.  

  And Sharon, I don't think you have the right to go to the Serbs, 750,000 of
whom were massacred by the Ustashi in WWII, and tell them "how dare you
not want to live in a Bosnian state."  It's their right to live in their own
state if they want to.  They own 60-65 % of the land, so why shouldn't they
be allowed to live on it in peace as they like?  How dare you grant yourself
the right to tell others where & how they should live?

Regards,
Milan
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