From: v22964qs@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (Mike Cluff)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism,talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Why? (was Re: THE MIND OF THE BIBLE BELIEVER)
Date: 7 Jan 93 20:36:00 GMT
Distribution: world,public
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <1993Jan7.174800.9003@ra.royalroads.ca>, mlee@post.RoyalRoads.ca (Malcolm Lee) writes...

>Without free will, we are just robots.  God already has the angels to do His
>every whim.  God intended much more for us.  We were meant to be His companions
>for eternity.  Could you live an eternity with someone who didn't want to be
>with you?  He wanted [here my editor truncated the rest -- please use carriage
 returns]

I don't think you're getting my point.  Imagine that you're God and that you're
about to create the universe.  Now assume that "we were meant to be his
companions" as you claim above.  Then why didn't he create only those who would
eventually "choose" to worship him with their Free Will?  If you take your
argument from a perspective of a potentially un-saved person, you just might 
see this as unfair.  After all this God created us with a basically sensory/
rational nature, and then supposedly appeals to us in nonsensory/nonrational
ways.  From that perspective the whole thing seems like a cruel test.  "I'm 
going to hide from you and them condemn you if you shun your senses and 
accept me!"  Besides, if our souls do lie in the balance, why doesn't he 
simply appeal to our senses?  Instead, this God sounds more like a child 
rapping the glass of an ant farm to see which way they scurry.

>I don't think that it's so hard for people to believe that there is a God out
>there who is loving and willing to accept them into Heaven.  Truth is, I think
>people DON'T WANT to believe that there is a God.  

My usual reaction to this claim is "speak for yourself."  How could you even 
possibly know what I want?  I have wanted and prayed and even deluded myself
in order to maintain a belief in God.  After several years, I realized how much
mental and emotional effort I was going through to try to believe in God 
against any evidence (not "proof" as much as evidence).  

Also realize that the "you don't believe in God because you don't WANT to" is
a double-edged sword, as the opposite could also be claimed to be true.  

>The ramifications of the
>existence of an omniscient being are beyond what most people are willing to
>accept.  

I don't know about most people.  I suspect that if you conducted a worldwide 
poll, most would accept the notion of an omniscient being.  Besides, even
if people *didn't* accept the ramifications, how would that be an argument for
that being's existence?  

>It is also contrary to what our modern society has ingrained upon us. 
>We have been programmed by society to be self-reliant and wealthy, if at all
>possible and at any c 

I thought that was from the "Protestant Work Ethic."  Hmm.

>Anyone can be humble.  For a Christian, it is a prerequisite.

Frankly, many Christians I've known weren't humble in the least.  Not only that,
I've seen many use it as a weapon -- "See, look how humble and virtuous I am!"
without realizing that claiming humbleness requires a lack of humbleness.  

******************************************************************************
For God so loved the world that He gave Man Free Will and then got pissed when
we didn't meet his arbitrary standards.  Oh, and he had his Son offed when he
realized how impossible those standards were.  -- Michael 4:23
******************************************************************************