From: thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu (Ted Frank)
Subject: Re: fraternities
Reply-To: thf2@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1992 07:00:20 GMT

In article <YdvFh3_00VQCEbZYFo@andrew.cmu.edu> Erik Warren Selberg <es2q+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
>thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu (Ted Frank) writes:
>> If you would prefer, we can use the analogy, "being a male under the
>> age of 21 makes you Z more times likely to have an auto accident."
>> If you'd like to explain to an insurance company why that isn't
>> "necessarily true," ceteris paribus, I'll be happy to watch them laugh
>> you out of the office.
>
>My insurance rates are based upon drivers under 21 in Northern Utah,
>not the nation as a whole.  Thus, if you'd like to conduct a study at
>CMU, feel free, and I'll accept that statistic.  However, I won't
>accept some statistic being applied to me from some random college.

So, instead accept the statistic that comes from the nationwide survey.
Or from Bernice Sandler's report on rape on campus.  Or the numerous
studies mentioned in Peggy Reeves Sanday's book.  Or go to the library,
go to the Nexis database, and do a search for "fraternity" and "rape."
Except you better limit the search to a narrow range of dates, or else
you'll be dealing with thousands of articles.

>> >No, the logic here was I know of one statistic that can be misused,
>> >therefore the possibility exists that another statistic can be
>> >misused.
>> 
>> But this adds nothing new to the discussion.  Any form of communication
>> can be misused, including attacks on statistics as well as statistics.
>
>Exactly!  So stop giving me statistics on how much more likely I am to
>commit rape!

Look, I'm well aware that statistics can be misused.  So can words.  So
can photos.  You haven't seen me here saying that fraternity members
are exactly 5.23 times more likely to rape -- not 5.22, not 5.24, but 5.23.
I know better than that, and you know I know better than that.  But we're
dealing with dozens of surveys and studies (in addition to the wealth of
anecdotal evidence, which I haven't even attempted to introduce) that do
have statistically significant numbers, and do identify a causal link
between a fraternity-like atmosphere and the propensity to rape.

>> >_reported_ rapes.  There was a nice post earlier on about that.
>> 
>> Indeed, one which Ethan Miller and I very nicely refuted.  You're talking
>> about a huge gap here, one which is either being caused by fraternities
>> being much more likely to rape or fraternity rapes being much more likely
>> to be reported.  Given the sociological and psychological studies on the
>> issue, there's a lot of support for the former and I have yet to see any
>> support for the latter (and in fact, I've seen evidence that the
>> reverse is true, that fraternity rapes are *less* likely to be reported.)
>
>Again, refering to another post, it means:
>(a) being in a fraternity -> being a rapist
>(b) being a rapist -> being in a fraternity
>(c) something -> being in a fraternity and being a rapist
>(d) this statistic happens to be weird.
>
>But as you stated above, all statistics can be misused, so we can't
>even be sure if the model we're using is correct.

One statistic is weird.  Two seperate statistics saying the same thing
is a coincidence.  Three's a conspiracy.  What's dozens?  Do you have
*any* counter-statistics?  Doesn't it pique your curiousity to see that
*none* have been introduced?  There have been several studies that go into
great detail explaining (a), dozens of which are mentioned in Sanday's book.

>> In addition, we've seen both a law student and
>> a lawyer on this thread explain why it is well-nigh close to impossible
>> of getting a conviction for a fraternity rape, which is a huge chunk of
>> the reason why they're a problem -- if fraternities were held accountable
>> for the rapes they committed, it wouldn't be half of the problem it is.
>
>Fraternities are accountable.  If a law student and a lawyer can't get
>a conviction, then either they aren't doing something right, or
>society itself is letting fraternities get away with it (which would
>lead into a nice philosophical discussion on the right of a fraternity
>to get away with something).

Indeed.  Check out the March 1, 1992 Washington Post magazine, where
Richard Cohen all but says any woman who gets drunk at fraternity party
deserves to be raped.  That's the kind of attitude that the rape victims
have to put up with.  The woman who had the guts to attempt to prosecute
her USC ATO (alleged) rapist is being subjected to all sorts of harassment
from the Greeks on that campus.
-- 
Ted Frank          + "Question whether attorney's filing claim for 'stud fee'
1307 E 60 St, #109 +  as countersuit to paternity action was improperly
U o' C Law Skool   +  motivated required remand."  Headnote 9, Committee on
Chi, IL 60637      +  Legal Ethics of WVa State Bar v Douglas, 370 SE2d 325.