HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: hillyard@msc.cornell.edu
Subject: Re: SAT's and achievement!
Originator: hillyard@tiger.msc.cornell.edu
Reply-To: hillyard@msc.cornell.edu
Organization: Cornell-Materials-Science-Center
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 02:55:33 GMT

From article <92209.140055KRB104@psuvm.psu.edu>, by <KRB104@psuvm.psu.edu>:

> 
> 
>    I think the statement you make here is horrible.  There are people who
> do good research, and I can't believe that in the hundreds and hundreds of
> studies that I have done on the subject, all the researchers wanted to find
> that SAT's and college achievement are not correlated.  Let me also clarify
> the last point.  It isn't that they aren't correlated, I used the wrong word
> here (almost everything is correlated in some fashion), but it's correlation,
> or its relationship in regressions etc, are not SIGNIFICANT!!!   I can cite
> a myriad of studies if you would like.  Yes, researchers can be biased, no
> question, but if the vast majority of studies point to the same conclusion,
> then unless someone contradicts it, you have to believe there is some truth.
> When I did my personal study for my Master's thesis, I did not change my
> numbers or fix my population so that SAT would not be significant,
> it is how my numbers came out!  Please don't assume that research is bad unless
> you take the time and energy to read and critique the articles.

I'm curious, what factors do you think are significant ie what should be used?
According to a quick look through 'The Case Against the SAT' (can't recall 
the author, damn)1989, the biggest correlations he got for both first year 
grade point average and graduation were class rank and SAT score.  The 
correlations were small, in the .2-.3 range, but were bigger than the other 
things he looked at such as parent's education, earnings, college 
competitiveness, etc.

His argument (based on the title you might guessed he was against using the 
test) was that the SAT was an inaccurate way for getting class rank
(they correlated well I guess), and although you are slightly more accurate 
if you use both in admitting students.  The expense, biases, and so forth
introduced outweigh the extra predictiveness.

Moving back to prop 48.  I tend to agree with Dan Perreault in that the 
standard is so low that anyone who actually makes an effort should be able 
to do it.  The question is if this will make it more likely for the player
to graduate.  My guess (based on very little) is it will have a small 
positive effect, since some players will now take their HS classes a bit more 
seriously.

SEH
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.college
From: sjc@cs.purdue.EDU (Steve Chapin)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.college
Subject: Re: RESULTS: Basketball (Day 3 preliminary)
Date: 30 Jul 92 00:54:23 GMT
	<1992Jul28.194454.4203@alw.nih.gov>
	<1992Jul29.204916.28721@alw.nih.gov>
	<1992Jul29.210445.29050@alw.nih.gov>
Organization: Department of Computer Science, Purdue University

}} In article <1992Jul29.210445.29050@alw.nih.gov> etchuck@helix.nih.gov (Emil Thomas Chuck) writes:
}} 
}} At the moment, standings are as follows...
}} ESP 1-1 2			PUR 1-2 2
                                ^^^^^^^^^
Damn boilermakers.  What're they doing in international play, anyway?

sjc@cs.purdue.edu               Steve Chapin           Today's Grammar Lesson:
   Brake your bike before the wall, or you'll break your bike upon the wall!

             If I don't want it in my back yard, I don't want it.
From: denelsbe@washington.cs.unc.edu (Kevbo)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.college
Subject: Re: Info on Anthony Peeler???
Date: 30 Jul 92 21:58:31 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill

In article <55497@olivea.atc.olivetti.com> rsmith@strobe.ATC.Olivetti.Com (Russ Smith) writes [in reference to Anthony Peeler]:
>The second case was dropped completely prior to the draft buy the woman who
>made the allegations.					   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^


	Freudian slip, Russ?  Or intentional?  :->


>Russ Smith
>*******************************************************************************
>"Why do we call it a near miss, when we really mean a near hit?"
>******************************************************************************

Kevin

-- 
|| +------------------+  Following the instructions in the unmarked envelope,
||-| Kev @ UNC        |  Don erased his mind, with the remarkable agility 
||-| Master Poetaster |  usually reserved for cartoon characters.
|| +------------------+                      -- from a Sentence Game
From: hillyard@msc.cornell.edu
Subject: Re: Prop 48...
Originator: hillyard@tiger.msc.cornell.edu
Reply-To: hillyard@msc.cornell.edu
Organization: Cornell-Materials-Science-Center
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 03:00:23 GMT

From article <1992Jul27.172254.21653@ms.uky.edu>, by fehr@ms.uky.edu (Jeff Davis):

> 
> Yes there is a correlation between SAT scores and the aptitude to
> do college work. There is also a correlation between being a doctor
> and having big feet (a strong positive correlation, BTW). This just
> points out the ability to use correlations to poorly define policy.

Let me guess.  The sample included men, women, and children; and since
most doctors are full grown men a good correlation was gotten between
foot size and being a doctor.

I would hope that studies on the SAT are a bit better done.

SEH
From: gln@cs.arizona.edu (Gary L. Newell)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.college
Subject: Re: Prop 48...
Date: 24 Jul 92 23:38:00 GMT
Organization: U of Arizona CS Dept, Tucson

In article <55422@olivea.atc.olivetti.com>, rsmith@strobe.ATC.Olivetti.Com (Russ Smith) writes:
> Not that I don't agree with what you are saying regarding cultural biases,
> but one important point is missing here. The purpose of both the SAT and
> ACT tests is to try to "predict" future performance in college by a high
> school student. In your above example of innercity youth taking a test 
> designed "around their culture", you are right they would score higher,
> but the score would be meaningless as a predictor for college because 
> college courses are not designed "around inner city culture". Unless you

 So what I deduce from this (and by the way I agree with what you've said)
is that our universities and colleges are designed with a built-in
cultural bias. This of course does not alter the fact that the tests
most likely contain a cultural bias - which was the original premise
Jerray chose to portray as false.

> My objection to calling them "culturally biased tests" is that bias
> to me suggests its an intentional thing, when its really the result
> of how things are. 

 I suppose, perhaps all those sociology courses rotted my brain way back
when. I tend not to think of intent as a natural implication of bias.


			gln
From: saunders@luther.che.wisc.edu (Brian E. Saunders)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.college
Subject: Re: Spot the flaw
Date: 30 Jul 92 00:05:20 GMT
Organization: University of Wisconsin - Madison

In article <55476@olivea.atc.olivetti.com> rsmith@strobe.ATC.Olivetti.Com (Russ Smith) writes:
>Very simple point, I'll give 2 example of similar logic and reasoning
>then sit back and let people point out whats wrong.
>
>
>Assuming there is not a fundamental difference in the ability of people
>of different races to excel academically(no race is "smarter" than the
>others"), we take averages on the SAT score for all races and discover
>blacks score lower on the test than people of other races.
>
>Hypothesis: The SAT is a racially biased test that is written in such
>a way that it is biased against blacks.

Perhaps, but I do think you have to qualify that as "blacks who primarily
live in the inner city, with parents in the lower economical class".  Take
for example Alan Henderson and Chris Webber.  Both of them are black, and
both had over 1300 on their SAT's.  Alan's parents are both doctors, and
live in Carmel, Indiana (easily the richest community in the state).  Alan
went to a private school, Indianapolis Brebeuf, which has a pretty good
reputation.  I don't know the specifics aboiut Webber, but I do think the
high school he went to (Country Day, near Detroit) is also a well-respected
high school.
>
>
>Example 2
>
>Assuming there is not a fundamental difference in the ability to shoot
>a basketball based on ones height(ie. shooting abilitly is not related
>to height), we take the average freethrow percentage for guards and
>centers and discover that centers shoot freethrows worse than guards
>(or tall players shoot freethrows worse than shorter players).
>
>Hypothesis: The free throw is biased against taller players and is designed
>in such a way that its unfair to centers.

That is true, but for reasons which are not appararent.  First of all, the
assumption is that big people don't have to shoot as well as little people
to excel in basketball, because their height alone is a commodity.  However,
one can say that the big people are closer to the basket, thus are not able
to use as big of an arc on their shot.  Flatter shots tend to miss more
often if they are slightly off-target.
>
>Now tell me whats the difference in the 2 example, one of which is
>considered to be true, the other which sounds pretty silly.

I thought both hypotheses were pretty decent.
-- 

Brian E. Saunders			saunders@luther.che.wisc.edu
From: iftekhar@elm.eecs.ucdavis.edu (Iftekhar Hussain)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.college
Subject: Go Tennessee Vols beat Bama
Date: 27 Jul 92 22:50:02 GMT
Reply-To: iftekhar@elm.eecs.ucdavis.edu (Iftekhar Hussain)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation

Hi,

Can any  football guru tell me what is in store for Tennessee Vols this
season? Thank you

-Ifty
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.college
From: fehr@ms.uky.edu (Jeff Davis)
Subject: Re: Spot the flaw
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 17:39:01 GMT
Organization: Loose Affiliation of Millionaires and Billionaires and Baby

Russ Smith writes:
>
>Assuming there is not a fundamental difference in the ability of people
>of different races to excel academically(no race is "smarter" than the
>others"), we take averages on the SAT score for all races and discover
>blacks score lower on the test than people of other races.
>
>Hypothesis: The SAT is a racially biased test that is written in such
>a way that it is biased against blacks.
>
Counter example: It is my understanding that the statistical skew 
associated with IQ tests and the like also shows up among the
Catholics of Northern Ireland. White folk.

Commonality w/ blacks in this country? Their existence as an
easily identifiable sub-class, perhaps. I don't know. Cultural
bias may not be a component of the test but of the society in
general. 

      [question about tall and short folks and free throw
        shooting deleted. Mildly interesting, but deleted]

Central Flaw related to IQ testing: what the h*** is intelligence?
-- 
Jeff Davis <davis@keats.ca.uky.edu> Repeat after me:
From: trradrx@canctr.mc.duke.edu (R.CLOUGH)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.college
Subject: Re: UNC Academics/Jucos
Date: 24 Jul 92 12:53:10 GMT
Reply-To: trradrx@canctr.mc.duke.edu
Organization: Duke U. Med. Ctr., Durham, NC

In article <1992Jul24.014936.25015@jade.tufts.edu>, gharris@jade.tufts.edu (George W. Harris) writes:
>>OK.  What UNC player was known as "The Blind Bomber"?
>	George Glamack.  Ha!  Try again (of course, I'm a Duke grad, so I would
>be expected to get tough questions).

Correct!  I'm going to have to make this even harder.  How about:
  Who was the first African-American to play at Duke?

Robert Clough, DUMC
	DUKE FOOTBALL '92: "The horror, the horror!"
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.college
From: rbutera@is.rice.edu (Rob Butera)
Subject: Re: BAD News for Arkansas and UMass fans
Organization: Rice University
Distribution: na
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 16:45:27 GMT

In article <23JUL199214152363@pierre.mit.edu>, kettler@pierre.mit.edu (KETTLER, THOMAS R.) writes:
|> 
|> Well, don't forget your own college of Georgia. After all, the big lawsuit 
|> about the woman English professor who taught a remedial English course was told 
|> to change some football players grades for failing to incomplete to keep the 
|> players eligible occured at U. of Georgia. After all, what's good for the goose 
|> is good for the gander.

Agreed.  They're both big state schools (nothing against them).  BTW, the prof
in question is "Jan Kemp" - KEMP is a four letter word to some old-school
UGA faithful ...

go yellowjackets  
-- 
Rob Butera - ECE grad student   Rice University, Houston, TX   rbutera@rice.edu

 "I do not feel obliged to believe that same God who endowed us with sense,
  reason, and intellect had intended for us to forgo their use."  - Galileo
From: milleman@athena.cs.uga.edu (Richard Milleman)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.college
Subject: Re: Origin of Hoya Nickname
Date: 22 Jul 92 22:55:00 GMT
Organization: University of Georgia, Athens

In article <14kjk0INNej1@agate.berkeley.edu> elrod@ocf.berkeley.edu (Edward L. Rodriguez) writes:
>What is the origin of Georgetown's nickname, the Hoyas?
>
>Apologies if this has come up before.  I'm new to this group.
>Thanks in advance,
>-Ed

There's no saying where "Hoya" came from, but does that bulldog logo look 
familiar, especially with the little "G" on his hat. If not let me refer you
to the logo of the Georgia Bulldogs!!


					      Rick Milleman
					      UGA - 1992 SEC Football Champs!!
From: swilliam@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Steve Williams)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.college
Subject: Re: Nike Academic All-Stars Game
Date: 31 Jul 92 15:56:55 GMT
Reply-To: swilliam@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Steve Williams)
Organization: Carderock Division, Naval Surface Warfare Center

What college are these players leaning toward to, if they haven't already
signed with?

    Joey Beard,       6-10,  power forward
    Greg Newton,      6-11,  power forward
    Jeff McInnis,      6-4,  point guard
    Jacque Vaughn,     6-0,  guard
    Randy Livingston,  6-4,  point guard
    Jerry Stackhouse,  6-7,  small forward
    Jeff Capel,        6-4,  guard

---------------------------------------------------------------------
 Steve Williams                           swilliam@oasys.dt.navy.mil
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.college
From: foerster@zman.rtp.dg.com (Mike Von Foerster)
Subject: Re: Illinois Prairie St. Games- collegiate
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 92 16:11:20 GMT
Distribution: na
Reply-To: foerster@dg-rtp.dg.com
Organization: Data General Corp., Research Triangle Park, NC
Keywords: Illinois, amateur tournament 

In article <BrsqM1.AKJ@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, jwag9429@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (John Wilbur Althauser) writes:
|> 
[ other stuff deleted]
|> Illinois
|> .
|> .      Robert Bennett  (6-6")   20 (2-3's)/12 (8Rbs)/ 7
|> .         Good board man, shot comes and goes, still awful at the foul line
|> .      Deon Thomas    (6-8")    30/24/--
|> .         Has gained upperbody muscle, lifting 4x/week with Bennet (its
|> .         about time D.T. got serious).  Scoring mostly dunks and low post
|> .         moves.  Put the ball on floor, but doesn't look comfortable yet
|> .         (or very effective) doing so.
|> .      T.J. Wheeler    (6-4 guard)  7/2/18
|> .         Reached championship game with Michael. Not flashy, did a fair
|> .         job slowing Kleinschmidt down.
|> .     Tom Michael  (6-8" forward)  11/10/10
|> .         Steady play with limited minutes.  B10 leader in 3 pt. %, but
|> .         few moves.  Surprised defenders (and me) a few times by
|> .         driving.  Still passes to the ankles of teammates.
|> .      Andy Kauffman (6-6" small forward)   5/7/33 (2-3's & 15/16 fts.)
|> .         Sat out last season to retain a full season's eligibility
|> .         after going academic AWOL. Has lost 10 # and at 215 #
|> .         looks better.  Needs to score in anthropology this
|> .         summer to regain eligiblity.  Teammates needn't
|> .         worry about getting passes from him, bad or otherwise.

You mean after one whole academic year and a summer school session, Andy
still has an eligibility problem??? What was he doing all last year?

[rest deleted]

|> .
|> John Althauser
|> jwag9429@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu
|> .
|> ##########################
|> 

-- 

Michael von Foerster           Internet: foerster@dg-rtp.dg.com
DG/UX Core Development         UUCP:     {world}!mcnc!rti!dg-rtp!foerster
Data General Corporation
62 T.W. Alexander Drive
RTP, NC. 27709                 Phone:    919-248-6327
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.college
From: u_nique@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Jerray Wei)
Subject: Prop 48...
Organization: HAC - Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 18:58:46 GMT

Now that the subject of SATs and grades has come up (especially with two
awesome talents from my town not making the cut)...what does everyone
really think of Prop 48?

I guess the purpose of the clause is to make sure that student athletes,
if they don't make it to the pros (which is like 95% of them or more)
have at least some academic skills, but I'm not sure on how it's really
going to help anyone.

Much has been said about how college sports use the athlete and if he doesn't
make it to the big time, he doesn't have an education to get him through
life either.  But how does Prop 48 help at all?  I think it's kept star
athletes from having a pro shot, more than it's ensured decent academics.
After all, 700 on the SATs is soooo low that I can't believe any of these
guys didn't pass it.  The lowest you can get on these tests is a 400, and
it's got kind of a bell curve too.  To make it out of the bottom of the
scoreboard, you only need to get like a minimal number of questions right.

I don't buy any of this culturally biased stuff either.  People have advantages
and disadvantages wherever they come from, but the basic skills needed to
survive in this country don't change.  You need to be able to add 1 + 1,
or if you aren't great at that, you need to be able to write proper English,
etc.  From what I've seen, most people screw up the SAT's because the only
time they realized that it was important is the day before.  And even then,
they'd think, damn oh well, it's too late to study.  I think the average
student who took a half decent amount of time to study for the test should
be able to get 1150 without any problem, but the national average is still
only 900 some.  Sad.

Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.college
From: hillyard@msc.cornell.edu
Subject: Re: Spot the flaw
Originator: hillyard@tiger.msc.cornell.edu
Reply-To: hillyard@msc.cornell.edu
Organization: Cornell-Materials-Science-Center
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 00:57:59 GMT

From article <1992Jul29.190521.2607@doug.cae.wisc.edu>, by saunders@luther.che.wisc.edu (Brian E. Saunders):

[...]
>However,
> one can say that the big people are closer to the basket, thus are not able
> to use as big of an arc on their shot.  Flatter shots tend to miss more
> often if they are slightly off-target.

Not true.  What matters is the angle the ball is traveling when it reaches
the basket.  The larger the angle from the verticle, the more elliptic, and
therefore smaller the basket appears from the ball's frame==>less room for
shooter error.  However, no matter how tall the shooter he can always adjust
his angle of release to give the ball a decent approach angle.  The
taller player actually needs a flatter release for the same approach angle
as a smaller player.

It might help to consider a limiting case, shooting into a trashcan.  The
release can be totally flat, yet the approach angle is still pretty vertical.

SEH
From: rsmith@strobe.ATC.Olivetti.Com (Russ Smith)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.college
Subject: Re: BAD News for Arkansas and UMass fans
Date: 24 Jul 92 14:48:54 GMT
Organization: Olivetti ATC; Cupertino CA, USA

In article <XJAM.92Jul23233147@cork.CS.Berkeley.EDU> xjam@cork.CS.Berkeley.EDU (The Crossjammer) writes:
>My full point is that you tried to stick words in these coaches mouths that
>said, "We want a lower minimum for black people." I claim that neither
>Thompson nor Chaney has ever said any such thing or anything even close. You
>yourself claimed that the test is at least biased against the poor. Would
>it not be reasonable for the coaches to come to the same conclusion and
>decry the use of a test that's biased against many players, since indeed
>many do come from poor backgrounds?
>
Fair enough, I'm not saying they asked for a lower minimum for black
people, only that they said blacks would be most affected by the 700 
minimum so it was unfair to black kids (Prop 48). The ACT is considered
less biased but again blacks score lower and for the same reason, more
blacks come from poor neighborhoods, blacks earn less money than whites
on average(even for similar jobs). I understand all the objections to
the use of the test, but to me Chaney and Thompson implied the test scores
were used to discriminate against blacks, when in reality they were used
for one simple reason, GPA is useless as a standard entrance requirement
because grades are so arbitrary. We all experienced taking a class in
school with a known difficult teacher, while our friend had the same
class with an "easy" teacher. We worked our butts off to get a B, he 
kicked back and got a B. Even schools in the same district have different
standards, so if you use GPA for the whole country, you'll get tons of
borderline kids going to those military "prep" schools like Oak Hill
which are notorious for jacking up the grades or good athletes so they
can attend a college.

I don't have an answer for the problems with the SAT, but I don't buy
Thompson and Chaney's claim of prejudice(which implies they chose
to exclude blacks, not that they chose to accept a test that has some
problems with it). Both guys were mad because Prop 48 cut into their
recruiting since some of the kids they go after would be Prop 48.
Temple has had at least one(usually a couple) of Prop 48's each year
since the rule started. Some have graduated some haven't. John Chaney
is my favorite coach and sincerely cares about these kids and their
futures, but in the end I say his complaint is based on the kids losing
a year of eligibility, not on them being  the victims of discrimination.



Russ Smith
*******************************************************************************
"I want a world where I can eat a sea otter without getting sick!"

Leslie Nielsen in the Naked Gun 2 1/2
******************************************************************************





Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.college
From: burtonr@qso.Colorado.EDU (Richard Burton)
Subject: Re: A Look Ahead at the ACC: Georgia Tech
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 17:17:17 GMT

saunders@luther.che.wisc.edu (Brian E. Saunders) writes:
>navarrer@bionette.CGRB.ORST.EDU (Roy Navarre) writes:
>>...............
>
>Oh, no!  He's back...............

Yeah, and only two days before I move back to the Midwest and lose
my access to computer accounts. Damn, now I won't get to hear my
daily drivel about how Shaq can cure cancer while shooting 99% from
the free throw stripe because Dale Brown is the son of Christ.

Darn, I'm really going to miss that.

T-Bone
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.college
From: martyp@engin.umich.edu (Martin Pochmara)
Subject: Re: SAT's and achievement!
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 11:08:59 EDT
Organization: University of Michigan Engineering, Ann Arbor

>concrete, but as I said, I have never seen a study where SAT is a good
>predictor of collegiate success, and I have read over 1000 studies in the area
>of collegiate education.  If anyone knows of such a study let me know.
>Kevin


Ever wonder if the people studying the SAT are biased? Doesn't that have a
bearing on this discussion? 
I just wanted to point out that many people who study these tests sometimes
make their conclusions before they do the testing....and when they do the
testing, the whole study becomes biased......  

                 				-Marty
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.college