From: rlk@underprize.think.com (Robert Krawitz)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: more of ...can of worms....
Date: 28 Aug 92 22:17:07 GMT
Organization: Thinking Machines Corporation, Cambridge Mass., USA
NNTP-Posting-Host: underprize.think.com
In-reply-to: gertler@ptms_dev.sbi.com's message of Fri, 21 Aug 1992 15:08:27 GMT

In article <9208211506.AA17369@ptms_dev.sbi.com> gertler@ptms_dev.sbi.com (User - Don Gertler) writes:

   rlk@underprize.think.com (Robert Krawitz) writes:
   >What is "your own group"?  As far as I'm concerned, the only group (as
   >opposed to those organizations which I voluntarily associate with) to
   >which I really belong is the human race.

   What you seem to be saying is that the only group to which you belong
   involuntarily is the human race.  Well, it seems to me you have left
   out a whole host of other supersets. 
...
					You may also be a member of the
   group defined as Jews by Jewish law.  You may not like this, or you
   may just not enjoy being labelled or grouped by others, but that is
   a far cry from not being a member of ("belonging to") a group, however 
   arbitrarily defined.

Point well taken.  A better way to phrase what I meant (although still
imperfect) is that the human race as a whole is the only broad group of
people that I really feel a part of (as opposed to specific
organizations that I join).

   >Quite frankly, I get worried
   >when I see people emphasize group affiliation, because it tends to
   >emphasize group exclusion, which leads to ignorance and intolerance (and
   >worse...).

   I see your point, but I have to disagree.  You are setting up a straw
   man.  I've discussed this topic often, but from a different point of
   view.  I have a problem with people who feel that they must disparage
   other groups in order to build up their own.  If one is proud to be a
   member of one's group, he/she should stress its positive aspects rather
   than the negatives of all others.  The former emphasizes inclusion,
   while the latter stresses exclusion.

For groups that I join out of my own free will, that's easy enough.  I
just find it hard to see either positive or negative qualities to what's
basically one's ancestry.

But I will admit that I'm particularly dismayed when I see Jews
disparage others for reasons of ancestry or belief (or lack thereof).
Our history should make VERY clear the dangers of doing that, even from
a selfish point of view.  This is particularly in reference to a recent
thread about scouting that's jumped back and forth for a while.
Atheist-bashing and gay-bashing are things that, IMHO, Jews should stay
*VERY* well away from.  If nothing else, the danger of backfire is too
great.  Now, I guess I take all this further than most people do, and
I'm leery of "automatic" classification into any group, even for the
best of reasons -- good reasons can in time become bad ones.

   If I want to express to my kids why I'm proud to be a Jew, I will
   not say that the non-Jews are evil.  First, because I don't believe
   that, and second because I would sound as if I'm speaking at the
   Republican convention.  Where's the beef?  And what happens when
   the inevitable evil Jew appears?  What do I say then?

No disagreement here.  What bothers me is when people take pride in the
actions of others.  I don't think that it's right to feel pride in what
someone did years ago who never knew me -- it isn't something I had any
part in doing.  Similarly, I don't see any reason to feel shame in what
someone else did, if that person had no connection to me and couldn't
have had any.  Nothing wrong with working as a team, but there's a lot
of difference between being part of the team and being a spectator.  I
recognize that you haven't said that here, but I hear an uncomfortable
amount of this.

   No.  There are many wonderful aspects of Jewish life.  I want my
   kids to experience Shabbat, with the whole family together.  No
   faking it with the TV.  I want them to feel the love of Jewish
   life, and with it the responsibilities to one's people, family and
   self.  In short, the "family values."  [Pat Buchanan, eat your
   heart out.  Oops!  I guess I slipped. :-)]

Personally, I feel no connection to any of these things.  Why can't the
whole family get together whenever it feels like it, for no external
reason whatsoever?

As for "responsibilities to one's people", all too often it comes out
sounding like the recent thread on Hurricane Andrew -- that there are
many Jews suffering in Miami.  True, but there are lots of people
suffering in southern Florida who aren't Jews, and the reason for their
suffering has nothing to do with the fact that they're Jews, just that
they happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time (and most of
the suffering was farther south, which doesn't have too great of a
Jewish population).  Emphasizing the Jewish nature of the tragedy seems
parochial, when what happened had nothing to do with who one was, simply
where one lived.

   >This doesn't mean I'm going to push people to "assimilate"
   >who don't want to, but I expect them to show me the same courtesy and
   >not push me around either.

   I don't push.  Well, maybe just a little.

As long as you don't push when someone's clearly not interested.
--
ames >>>>>>>>>  |	Robert Krawitz <rlk@think.com>	245 First St.
bloom-beacon >  |think!rlk				Cambridge, MA  02142
harvard >>>>>>  .	Thinking Machines Corp.		(617)234-2116

Member of the League for Programming Freedom -- write league@prep.ai.mit.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish