From: kxc@ariel.ucs.unimelb.EDU.AU (Khuanchai Chooboonraj)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.thai
Subject: Re: linguistic root of "thai"
Date: 18 Nov 1992 01:12:57 +1100
Organization: University of Melbourne
NNTP-Posting-Host: ariel.ucs.unimelb.edu.au

fstawit@icomp01.lerc.nasa.gov (Tawit Chitsomboon) writes:


>In article <1e7hooINNh3c@ariel.ucs.unimelb.EDU.AU> 
>kxc@ariel.ucs.unimelb.EDU.AU (Khuanchai Chooboonraj) writes:
>>
>>Siam is not a Thai word. Back 100 of years ago when Thai called themself "thai",but when Western/White fleets arrived at Malaya, they asked local ppl there
>>about a nation up north of Malaya and were told that "Siam" lived up there.

>This is interesting. Another theory (proposed by our die-young genius,
>Jit Phumisak) is that Siam is an ancient word; the root of which can be
>traced back to the word 'ahom' and 'yueh'. Yueh (or something like that)
>is an advanced ethnic group in Southern China whom many experts believe
>to be the forefather of the various Tai groups.

I have to try to find a book that I read about this subject. I am not sure
whether I have it with me in Australia or in Thailand. I will post a bit more
infos if I can find that book.

>>Siam means "Black People". Possibly referred to Khom who lived in Suwannaphum

>Funny huh. How WHITE were the Malay people back then? :-)
>Thais' color skin vary almost linearly with the latitude, being very dark
>in the South to very light in the North. As for the language, a researcher
>(Chea Yanchong, who was born in Southern Thailand and now with a Chinese
>ethnic research team in Yunnan) has said that the Thai Southern dialect
>is strikingly similar to the dialect of (Tai) Lue in Yunnan (China).
>He said the two groups can probably talk to one another without a translator.
>This is weird since most central Thais would have hard time understanding
>their Southern compatriot dialect. How could this leapfrog jump be 
>explained?

I heard from someone that Thais in Supanburi speak correct dialet while Thais
in BKK speak Tae-jewh dialet. I believe that some of the monks I know told me
that Thais in Burma and Sip Song Panna speak old style thai.

>>there are 60 million Thais in Thailand, 
>>100 million Thais in Burma, 

>Either this is a typo or you remember incorrectly. Burma has a total 
>population of 40 millions including all ethnic minorities. The Shan-Thai
>,being the largest minority group, numbers around 10 mill.

>>100 million thais in India 

>Another typo, should be 10 mill.
>Some scholars count these people out as Tai because they seem to have
>been fully Indianized and Hindunized. Recently, however there seem
>to be a movement to preserve their ancient cultural identity.
>I remember (from reading a book) that these people always showed
>eagerness and were very helpful to the author once they knew that
>she was a Shan Tai. They would always said " Oh! You are my relative."

>>and _possibly_ another 100 million Thais in Sothern China.

>Now, this is closer. But still about 70 mill off :-)

I possibly am wrong and will check my facts again. I remember that someone
mentioned this 100 figure to me. It's very interesting subject to discuss.
I was told that Thais (from Thailand) can't get a visa into Ahom State in
India, can someone confirm this?

>However, I suspect that the Kwangtung (Cantonese) people might have
>shared common heredity with Tais. Their physiques seem different from
>the Northen Hans but more similar to Tais (rounder eyes -still
>almond shaped in Western standards :-) The ancient Kwangtung language
>is similar to Tai languages not only in vocabs but also in its structure.
>For example they would put adjectives behind nouns like 'table red'
>instead of 'red table' like the majority of other Chinese dialects.
>If you included the Cantonese, the 100 mill that you quoted
>would be a lot closer.

I referred to Sip Song Panna state in Chaina. I might make a trip there
one day so I can see it with my own eyes.

>Could expert in CHinese language tell me what is the meaning of
>'kwang' as in kwangtung and kwangsi? It sounds close to Thai word
>'KwAAng+' which means a conglomeration of provinces. Laos still
>uses KwAAng+ system to partition their country.

>If my speculation was true, then the Chinese that emigrated to Thailand
>could be our long lost relatives since they all came from KwAAng+Thung" :-)
>So, might as well love each other more. (If sharing the same earth is
>not a good enough reason.)

>I also  suspect that the two large cities in North Vietnam Langson
>and Coabang have Tai names. Lang+San+ = On top of the Mountain.
>Coa+Bang- = Shielded by the mountain. But I see no Thai scholars
>pointed this out. They always tried to distort the pronunciation to
>sound as non-Thai as much as possible, notwithstanding the fact that
>Tai (NV called Tho) people are majority in that area, even nowadays.

I heard a bit about it but forgot most of it now. There was a song back
many years ago about "Thai dum" - "Black Thai" who live in Vietnam.
I will have to take a time off and look into this area as well as 
how Thai language developed over the past 1000 years.

>I have much more to say but I know some of you're already itch to type K.
>So bye for now.

Please share us more of your infos about this matter. It has been very
interesting subject.

rgds,
kc