From: echeng@phys.psu.edu (Eddie Cheng)
Subject: Re: Patriotism is the Opium of the Mass (was Re: Chinese, Are You Jealous)
Organization: Penn State, Department of Physics
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1992 19:09:44 GMT

In article <BxDJAL.9Eq@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> yawei@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (~{QG9p~}) writes:

	Oh boy am I surprised!  I could anticipate "attacks" from many
people but did not expect this from Mr. Yawei, a friend whose posts
are mostly very thoughtful.  You know, I agree with you one hundred
percent that "patriotism is the opium of the mass".  But I just
fail to see any relation of "patriotism" to my posts in this thread.
Where exactly did I advocate patriotism at all?  :-(

>I think it is admirable that Eddie Cheng and Hu Ping and the rest of
>Beijing University had this brief taste of democracy, but using that
>to defend the CCP-run "motherland" is just pitiful and dispicable.

	Defend motherland?  Did I?  :-(

	Look, like Prof. Xiaolin Li is obssessed with "telling the truth",
I like to.  But more often than not, I find the "truth" is very hard
for me to grasp, so I settled on the next best thing--facts.  I try
to tell the facts I know and correct some misconceptions I saw.

	Over this thread, I mainly told two facts.  One, that we Chinese
do have voting rights, although small and limited.  Two, it is 
possible to vote some high officials out of office and it did happen
before, although very rare and almost impossible.

	And this is to defend the CCP-run motherland?  :-(
 
>Let's not forget that the episode in Beida was anything but the 
>norm in China. Not to mention that what happened in Beida during
>and after the "election incident" was not exactly in the spirit
>of free competition either.

	No, I never said that was the norm in China.  I just told the
story as I know to satisfy Prof. Xiaolin Li.

	And I don't know what is the "election incident".  What 
exactly you are refering as the "what" happend during and after
it?

>A "vote", my friends, is not simply casting a piece of paper into
>a box.  When opposition parties cannot legally exist, when there
>is no freedom of speech for anyone not going with the official
>line, there is no such thing as a "vote", not in my book, no sir.

	Well, you might have got some stricter definition for "vote",
but that is fine.  I agree with the "freedom of speech" part, but
I don't see why "parties" have to be so crucial.  In the Beida
election, Hu Ping, Wang Juntao et al. surely represented an 
opposition force.  And we did have freedom of speech during the
whole campaign.

>So my friends, Eddie Cheng included, you may go around happily
>singing your great patriotic songs "WE TOO CAN VOTE IN CHINA" if
>you so desires.  I know it is very psychologically fulfilling to

	As I said, I only meant to present this as a fact.  Whatever
emotion one can attach to it is the business of the individual.
I just wish people not to be ashamed as a Chinese over a
misconception (like never was able to vote on anything).

>you. I know that a patriot can never tolerate any bad mouthing of 
>his "country".  I envy your ability of self-illusion. How I wish
>reality can change to fit what you think ...

	If it is just a "bad mouthing", why tolerate?  If it is based
on concret facts, such as the extremely unfair nature of the voting
system in China and the totalitirian political atmosphere, 
critisms are more than welcome.  And I hardly see this has 
anything to do with patriotism.

>Patriotism is the opium of the mass.

	Well, I only feel that we have already got too many big slogans
to go around with.



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