HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes)
Newsgroups: news.admin,rec.music.makers.synth
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Date: 16 Nov 92 23:08:04 GMT
Reply-To: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov
Organization: Jet Propulsion Lab - Pasadena, CA

emcguire@intellection.com (Ed McGuire) writes:
>/assuming/ this controversy recurs over another renaming, /assuming/
>the renamed group is gatewayed, /assuming/ the gateway has no
>maintainer, or if the so-called "maintainer" is so incompetent that
>s/he can't even change the name of the newsgroup, the gateway will
>likely be taken over by a volunteer at another site.

That, too, is an assumption. 

>Ignoring the rules this time will lead to more disputes because of the
>precedent established that the rules can be shouted down, amendments
>or no.  

I see *this* point as contrived, myself. (Is this argument to be used even 
in the case of "extraordinary circumstances"?) Since shouting is occurring,
we must assume a dispute of some sort. I don't think "lessening the
number of disputes" is a valid reason for ignoring valid complaints.

>The newsgroup administration process should be simple, fast, and
>cheap.  

Was this rename so?

>Revotes are duplication of effort which should only occur if a gross
>injustice occurs.  

By who's standard is an event a gross injustice? 

>Again, a yardstick for good policy is whether the right thing occurs
>quickly with a minimum of articles posted to n.a.newgroups and other
>related groups.

And for that matter, by who's standard is a thing right? I'll bet
that this is not a subject that we can reach a consensus on. 

>I think a straw poll would put this in better perspective.  I will
>conduct one.

Great!
-- 
Dave Hayes - Network & Communications Engineering - JPL / NASA - Pasadena CA
dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov       dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov         ...usc!elroy!dxh

   A man was claiming to be a Prophet. He was taken before the Church.
   "Prophets reveal miracles," said the Minister. "What is yours?"
   The man replied: "I have the ability to read thoughts.  Right now
               you are all thinking that I am lying."
Xref: sparky news.admin:8637 news.admin.policy:559
From: leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Newsgroups: news.admin,news.admin.policy
Subject: Re: Harmlessness of a.b.p.e (long, but read it anyway)
Date: 23 Nov 92 15:05:46 GMT
Article-I.D.: qiclab.1992Nov23.150546.1106
Reply-To: Leonard.Erickson@f51.n105.z1.fidonet.org
Organization: SCN Research/Qic Laboratories of Tigard, Oregon.

dan@cubmol.bio.columbia.edu (Daniel Zabetakis) writes:


>   So my argument in favour of a.b.p.e is basically that the group does not
>harm publishers of pornography. My argument looks at 5 features of the images
>posted, and tries to show how they contrast to cases where the harm is more
>evident.
>   You may not feel that all the argument are relevant. Indeed, many will feel
>that my whole article is irrelevant. But I hope people will see more clearly
>where I stand.

>   To show harmlessness, I hope to show that the images posted to a.b.p.e 
>are not really in competition with the works they originate in. The first
>feature is completeness.
>   How many of you xerox articles from professional journals, and fail to
>send in the $2.00 required? How many of those with thier hands up would
>refrain from copying a whole magazine even if you were motivated to? The 
>concept of fair use allows you to make limited copies of works without
>violating copyright. But I don't think there is a clear dilineation between
>acceptable and otherwise.
>   A.b.p.e doesn't compete with Playboy (for example) because noone ever
>posts the whole magazine. Or even a whole pictorial. What you normally see is
>1-5 good pictures from a particular magazine. The extent of copying these
>images will go through probably excludes them from 'fair use', but where is the
>harm in it? The editors of Playboy would certainly object if you said that 
>those 5 images where the total worth of the 80 page magazine. I can see that
>it would be harmful to post the entire contents of a magazine to the net.
>(that very well might start happening in the not-too-distant future).

Playboy is *actively* going after people distributing those pictures *because*
it harms them. Specificly, because it greatly reduces the market for *their*
electronic image distributions. Yes, they are going into this field. 

The difference between the (minor) harm of not sending in the $2 for that
magazine article, and distributing a Playboy pinup via Usenet is precisely
the difference between making a copy of an extract and distributing free 
copies of said extract. You impair the ability of the copyright holder
to get people to buy extracts from them.

The law is clear, and so is the marketplace. Free copies *do* harm the
copyright owner. And they harm the consumer too. I'm quite sure that
any GIF or JPEG files produced by Playboy or the other publishers will
be superior in quality to many of the badly scanned images we see now.

You are in effect asserting "*I* see no harm in it, therefore there is 
no harm." 
-- 
Leonard Erickson		      leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com
CIS: [70465,203]			 70465.203@compuserve.com
FIDO:   1:105/51	 Leonard.Erickson@f51.n105.z1.fidonet.org
(The CIS & Fido addresses are preferred)
From: jhenders@jonh.wimsey.bc.ca (John Henders)
Newsgroups: news.groups,alt.usenet.culture
Distribution: world
Organization:  One of these days for sure
X-News: HERMES MMAIL 1.04 Rev. Sep  5 1992
Subject: Re: Is news.groups cliquish? No way!
	<1992Nov16.042236.26179@wolves.uucp>
	<1992Nov16.234058.23208@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> <2B091931.7A86@tct.com>
	<1992Nov18.005905.17765@jato.jpl.nasa.gov>
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 04:46:56 -0800

In <1992Nov18.005905.17765@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov
	(Dave Hayes) writes:

>But I thought voting and discussion were open to all? What about the timid?

	They just sit back, wait for the vote, and vote no, as usual.

-- 
                    John Henders              " Read the guideline, Luke"
           Just another elitist Usenet user        Obi Wan Spaf
From: 32BSFJC@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU (TERRY D. BARKLEY)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.arts.fantasy
Date: 22 Nov 92 21:25:24 GMT
 <92326.14375832BSFJC@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU> <1992Nov22.065424.17020@netcom.com>
Organization: Central Michigan University

OK, let's take a step back here and look at what we are discussing here.  The
viabilities of literary genres have never depended on concrete borders.  So it
can be argued that the whole idea of labeling genres is a specious one anyway.
While I have said that Fantasy should include anything with impossible aspects,
I suppose that there are those who would argue that Science Fiction should
include anything with its elements in it, or that romantic novels should
encompass all stories with romantic elements in them.  I'll agree then that
what may be one person's interpretation would not necessarily be another's.
Indeed, I dare you to get any three literary critics together and have them
agree about every aspect of literature.  It will never happen.  So, I will
apologize for seeming somewhat self-righteous in my first two articles.  I
will, however, stand by my arguments that, while some aspects of sci-fi and
Fantasy are the same, they are, at the base root, different.
     I have to think, however, that if we are having this argument now, and it
appears to have happened before in the past, then these differences of opinions
prove the need for a seperate forum.  I know I will never agree that Fantasy
belongs with sci-fi (I have to believe there are others out there who agree)
and there must be those out there who believe that Sci-Fi shouldn't be put with
Fantasy.  There also has to be those that say both are one and the same (or
varying degrees of importance are given to one side or the other).  But, at the
risk of being flamed and of sounding sophomoric, if there can be groups
dedicated to Dr. Who, Metallica, Star Trek (The Next Generation as opposed to
the original, and vice-versa), and other groups with even more limited appeal
across such a large net, then any arguments that the appeal of Rec.arts.fantasy
would be too limited become silly, because I know that more than twenty or
thirty would contribute over a given eight day period.
     I will take some pause here to say that I have indeed sounded somewhat
dry lately.  It comes from having written a large amount of dry dissertations
over the past few months. Forgive me, please.  I will try to be more brief and
less academic in the future. (Of course, I never thought I would say that at
college.)  Actually, I shall sit back for a week or so and let the rest of you
take this argument for a while.  I will say that it's been nice to get this off
my chest in an open forum like this as opposed to trying to argue with the
Lit clique here at CMU.

Terry D. Barkley                                 "Mostly harmless"
<32BSFJC@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU>                           Ford Prefect
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: mvanheyn@whale.cs.indiana.edu (Marc VanHeyningen)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.games.netrek reorganization
Date: 21 Nov 92 01:11:19 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Dept, Indiana University
X-Quoted: 6%

Thus said leonard@mimsy.umd.edu (Leonard Dickens):
>So would you vote for the idea of a r.g.n.announce or not?  Howzabout
>r.g.n.programmer (unmoderated)?

Sample dialogue:

"What's that you're using?  It looks different."

"Oh, it's a new client release.  Has some new features, see?"

"Wow, neat.  How can I find out about things like this?"

"Well, they are generally mentioned in rec.games.netrek..."

<ENTERS NEWSGROUP>

<READS ABOUT 6 POSTINGS>

"Geeze, how can you find out anything in here?"  <LEAVES>

I suppose one could simply flame such people for not properly looking
for the valuable stuff using nifty newsreader functions, but they still
exist, and as long as they don't bother reading any newsgroup, they are
likely to inflict low-clue on the rest of us.

(I know people who still have no idea what UDP is who have been playing
since well before it came out.  Just never bothered to find out anything.
They're not idiots either, just haven't come across that info.)

I support a r.g.n.announce, and I suppose we should try to choose
moderators somehow.  r.g.n.programmer sounds fine (unmoderated) but
isn't a big deal to me.  I wouldn't mind a league newsgroup, but I
don't mind them staying in r.g.n if they prefer.
-- 
Marc VanHeyningen    mvanheyn@whale.cs.indiana.edu    MIME & RIPEM accepted


The dead fish goes with the flow.
Newsgroups: news.groups,soc.culture.indian,soc.culture.pakistan,soc.culture.bangladesh
From: arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee)
Subject: Re: voting from non-usenetters!
Organization: Johns Hopkins University CS Dept.
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1992 23:56:50 GMT

In article <1992Nov15.230605.12751@maccs.dcss.mcmaster.ca> cs707ab@maccs.dcss.mcmaster.ca (Aftab) writes:
>I personally don't think that people who don't have access/don't even know
>what USENET is, should be canvassed for votes! I think there are enough
>zealous anti-ahmediya muslims on usenet that they don't need to seek votes
>from outside to turn the new newsgroup down.

It worked fine for misc.activism.progressive.
--
"the bogosity in a field equals the bogosity imported from related areas, plus
the bogosity generated internally, minus the bogosity expelled or otherwise
disposed of."  -- K. Eric Drexler

Ken Arromdee (UUCP: ....!jhunix!arromdee; BITNET: arromdee@jhuvm;
     INTERNET: arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu)
From: roder@cco.caltech.edu (Brenda J. Roder)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: Is there a general fault-tolerance news group?
Date: 16 Nov 1992 23:05:46 GMT
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
NNTP-Posting-Host: sandman.caltech.edu
Keywords: fault tolerance

jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard) writes:

>In article <lgf8foINNc63@priddy.cs.utexas.edu> cpg@cs.utexas.edu (Carlos M. Puchol) writes:
>>There are many terms that would fit the bill, like dependability,
>>responsiveness, etc ... but if it doesn't seem too stupid, why don't
>>we call it just comp.fault-tolerance ?

>Too long. Each component of a newsgroup name (between the dots, or after the
>last dot) needs to be no longer than 14 characters to maintain compatibility
>with System V systems that toss out filenames that are too long (too many SCO

So how about comp.fault-tolerant.

-- 
-- Brenda (roder@cobalt.caltech.edu)
Thought before action, if there's time.
    _The Edge_  Dick Francis
From: mst@vexpert.dbai.tuwien.ac.at (Markus Stumptner)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Date: 18 Nov 92 13:22:24 GMT
Organization: DB and ES Subdivision, TU Vienna

From article <1992Nov14.021722.2254@jato.jpl.nasa.gov>, by dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes):
> chip@tct.com (Chip Salzenberg) writes:
>>If you can't take the heat, etc.
 
> Here's yet another elitist remark. In fact, it's a good example of a class
> distinction...
> "Those who haven't been inured to heavy flaming" and "Those who have".

No, it's neither.  It's an example of a learning process.
-- 
Markus Stumptner                                mst@vexpert.dbai.tuwien.ac.at
University of Technology Vienna                 vexpert!mst@relay.eu.net
Paniglg. 16, A-1040 Vienna, Austria             ...mcsun!vexpert!mst
Via: uk.ac.leeds.scs; Sat, 21 Nov 1992 12:59:54 +0000
Distribution: world
X-News-Gateway: NewsGateway@phaze.UUCP (NewsGateway 1.0 by Pierre Rioux)
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 92 13:00:09 GMT
Newsgroups: news.groups
Organization: The University of Leeds, School of Computer Studies
From: ross-c@scs.leeds.ac.uk
To: usenet@phaze.cam.org
Cc: 
Subject: Re: Short comments, plus long rec.music.makers.* pre-vote discussion

In article <98467@netnews.upenn.edu> you write:
>have not taken rudimentary steps to inform themselves, or both.  Of course,
>this same attitude might also explain why I no longer read manual excerpts
>to users, answer elementary questions covered by "README" files, or spend
>a lot of time answering inquiries that have been asked on Usenet for the
>47th time *and* are covered by a FAQ.  I think people should be responsible

A recent joke from rec.humor.funny, invented by a support operator who had
received several calls about the same problem.

Q: What's the difference between an intelligent caller and a stupid caller?
A: About half an hour.

The attitude expressed by Ric K. makes me glad that I don't work at his
site. There may be repetition in your job, but this is the fault of your
job, not the people asking questions. If you don't like your job.....

Also, Ric K. leaves "getting 100% participation in votes" as an exercise to
the reader. This is *NOT* the current problem. The current problem is much 
closer to attempting to get 1% participation in votes. And IMHO the attitudes 
expressed by many news.groups members are *NOT* helping.

Cheers,

Ross-c
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: bjd@ece.cmu.edu (Bob Davidson)
Subject: Re: RFD: soc.adoption
Organization: Electrical and Computer Engineering, Carnegie Mellon
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1.4 PL6]
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1992 02:27:59 GMT

should we post to your RFC or the other one in the group?  It seems like
our efforts have been split.  I'm for soc.adopt as a new group.

Bob

--
bjd@ece.cmu.edu
Phone: (412) 268-6610
Data Storage Systems Center
Department of Electrical and Computer Engineering
Carnegie Mellon University
From: celms@veda.brl.mil (Dr. Aivars Celmins (BVLD/GSB) <celms>)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: comp.ai.fuzzy
Date: 16 Nov 92 17:31:54 GMT
Reply-To: celms@veda.brl.mil (Dr. Aivars Celmins (BVLD/GSB) <celms>)


 I second
             sci.logic.vuzzy

 Aivars Celmins
Newsgroups: news.groups,news.admin
From: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes)
Subject: Re: About the elitism in news.groups
Reply-To: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov
Organization: Jet Propulsion Lab - Pasadena, CA
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 22:54:59 GMT

peter@ferranti.com (peter da silva) writes:
>I'm about to dump another few hundred on this hobby of mine, to help improve
>network connectivity in Houston. You wanna try and tell me how I should spend
>it? That's what you're doing.

I don't follow your logic. 
-- 
Dave Hayes - Network & Communications Engineering - JPL / NASA - Pasadena CA
dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov       dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov         ...usc!elroy!dxh

"Quick, we must do something! A monkey has picked up a knife!"
"Don't worry," said a wise man, "so long as it was not a *man*."
The monkey had, sure enough, thrown the knife away.
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: Patrick F. McGehearty <patrick@convex.COM>
Subject: Re: CFV? What's a CFV??
Originator: patrick@mozart.convex.com
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1992 19:23:20 GMT
Reply-To: patrick@convex.COM (Patrick F. McGehearty)
Organization: Engineering, CONVEX Computer Corp., Richardson, Tx., USA
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

In article <97697@netnews.upenn.edu> rsk@gynko.circ.upenn.edu (Rich Kulawiec) writes:
...>I haven't seen much evidence that new
>users actually read these things before posting to Usenet.
>
Perhaps because the large numbers of new users who do read these things
don't make as many mistakes when posting, so they do not come to your
attention?
I read them, and believe that opinion leaders at many sites use the
information in them when talking to their peers about Usenet etiquette.  So,
to you and all those who have contributed to the informal and formal Usenet
documentation:

	 THANKS FOR ALL YOUR HARD WORK!!!

(caps used to indicate standing ovation, long applause)

We are listening out here, even if we screw up sometimes.  And most of us
are reasonable people (don't let the few unreasonable ones sour you on
the process).

- Patrick McGehearty
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: rorschak@daimi.aau.dk (Jesper Lauridsen)
Subject: Re: Dave Hayes may be right (was Re: To keep the r.m.s rename...)
Organization: Xanth Watch
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 92 17:19:37 GMT

dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes) writes:

>By the way, no one can make you angry without your consent. 

I have tried to install my emotionel life in order to make it pop
up a requester everytime I was going to be angry:

    ----------------------------------------------
    |       Do you want to get angry?            |
    |                                            |
    |       ______               __________      |
    |       | OK |               | Cancel |      |
    |       ------               ----------      |
    |____________________________________________|

But it doesn't work. How do you do it?
-- 
Jesper Lauridsen        |  I survived the rec.arts.sf-lovers split
rorschak@daimi.aau.dk   | 
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: irilyth@fenris.claremont.edu (Josh Smith)
Subject: Re: Usenet Culture (Was: Re: CFV? What's a CFV??)
Originator: irilyth@fenris
Organization: HMC Academic Computing Services
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 06:49:29 GMT

Just to clarify, in Dave's immediately previous post, the following:

>> I believe in the demographic shift.  But I choose not to spend my
>> volunteer time making ignorance more comfortable.

Was writtein by Chip Salzenberg, not by me. Dave's attributions didn't make
this clear. I haven't yet stated an opinion on the quantity vs. quality
issue, and since Chip's comment preceded my elaboration of that issue, I
wouldn't take his comments as a final word from him either.

This is not a flame; just trying to avoid confusion.
-- 
Josh Smith, User Support Coordinator  ::  irilyth@fenris.claremont.edu
Harvey Mudd College, Claremont CA     ::  consult(std-disclaimer.pl).
"Dad always thought laughter was the best medicine, which I guess is why
several of us died of tuberculosis." -Jack Handey, Deep Thoughts
From: rorschak@daimi.aau.dk (Jesper Lauridsen)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: Music Group Reorg Disagreement (was Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored)
Date: 16 Nov 92 21:27:13 GMT
Organization: Xanth Watch

dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes) writes:

>stanley@skyking.OCE.ORST.EDU (John Stanley) writes:

>>No. Material posted to rec.music.synth has something to do with
>>rec.music.synth. (Sometimes not, but generally it does.) 

>I don't believe that you (masquerading as an aware usenetter) are 
>going to argue that all posts have relavence to the group that
>they are found in.

I'm not a native speaker of english so the finer points of this strange
language might go over my head, but I have reason to believe that generally
doesn't mean "all" or always".

Was rec.music.synth really victim of so many unrelated postings? Good thing
that they changed that name!
-- 
Jesper Lauridsen        |  I survived the rec.arts.sf-lovers split
rorschak@daimi.aau.dk   | 
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: ian@nasser.eecs.nwu.edu (Ian Sutherland)
Subject: Re: Is there a general fault-tolerance news group?
Keywords: fault tolerance
Organization: EECS Department, Northwestern University
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 13:18:31 GMT

In article <1ec5ruINN5gb@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> rick@crick.ssctr.bcm.tmc.edu (Richard H. Miller) writes:
>In article <1992Nov17.203927.9825@eecs.nwu.edu> ian@nasser.eecs.nwu.edu (Ian Sutherland) writes:
>>In article <1992Nov16.192123.28286@frog.CRDS.COM> miket@frog.CRDS.COM (Michael C Tiernan) writes:
>>>Might I suggest a good place to start the discussions for such a subject
>>>would be in "comp.realtime" as well as "alt.industrial.computing".
>>
>>As well as comp.os.research.
>
>Why, fault tolerance has only a peripherial role in these groups and should
>not serve as the primary focus of the discussion.

Unless comp.arch has changed a lot since the last time I tuned in, it
would be just as peripheral to comp.arch, if not more.  I'll just
repeat: a lot of fault tolerance takes place above the architecture
level.  If we're going to discuss this, it should include other groups
than just those devoted to architecture.  Likewise for the name of any
group formed.
-- 
Ian Sutherland
ian@eecs.nwu.edu

Sans Peur
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen)
Subject: Re: Getting information
Reply-To: gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen)
Organization: Metrosoft
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 07:08:06 GMT

In article <2B0819DF.4E11@tct.com> chip@tct.com (Chip Salzenberg) writes:
> According to gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen):
> >As long as there is an attitude that experienced news admins are the  
only  
> >ones qualified to express opinions about the voting process, and said  
news  
> >admins are the "authority" in this context, voting will be skewed  
towards  
> >news admins and away from everyone else.
> 
> Well, of course admins are the authority.  We decide what happens.
> What ever gave you a contrary impression?

Chip! It *amazes* me what you decide to pull out and comment on. This one  
is way too funny. Did you REALLY miss the point by this much?

-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------
Gordon Van Huizen           vox: 619.488.9411  fax: 619.488.3045
Metrosoft                   gvh@metrosoft.com [NeXTmail welcome]
----------------------------------------------------------------