HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: Luo Wang <lwang@MARINER.AMC.EDU.AU>
Subject:      Re: Enough is enough! Patriotism Argument!
Reply-To: Luo Wang <lwang@MARINER.AMC.EDU.AU>
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 21:48:59 GMT
Comments: cc: China Net <CHINA-NT@uga.cc.uga.edu>

From lwang Sat Dec 12 13:49:16 1992
Subject: Re: Enough is enough! Patriotism Argument!
To: PHIZHAI@UKCC.UKY.EDU
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 92 13:49:16 EST
Cc: CHINA-NT@uga.cc.uga.edu (China Net)
 92 12:19 pm
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL4]

> This message itself is truly nonsense.  Is there anything that is not a matter
> of discussion?  Do you know how much literature has been devoted to the

Of course, there many out there. Please use your common sense.

> discussion of reliougious issues in Western theology and philosophy?

Yes, I know what you mean. But you have to remember that the discussion of
religious issues in Western theology and philosophy are the professional
discussions which are as specialsed as your guys' area such as
science and engineering and so on. You guy's AMATEUR nonsense over the
patriotism would never be qualified as promissing as a professional
disucussion. That is why I ask you guy to stop.

> that have ever been brought up in the history of China-Net.  This is so
 because
> "patriotism" is one of the most misleading but powerful words that
> the mojority of people endorse without a critical examination of their true
> meaning and implications.  People usually have a strong feeling about it
> but do not understand the rationale behind it.

Even though I agree with you on it, I still believe that, if you are not
specialised in the relevant areas such as politics or philosophy, don't
jump into the argument, if you are political scientist or something alike,
you'd better check your opponents' specialty before you develop a
discussion with him or her.

I found most arguments on the net have been based upon your guys value
judgement which certainly will lead you to an endless and meanless debate.
If you realy insisit on it, you'd better move the argument exclusively to
talk.politics.china, or soc.culture.china, so to save other people's
time to delete your guy's nonsense.

BTW, the net should be primarily used for communication purpose rather
than "Educating" others, no matter how good you think your idea is.

Luo Wang

Australia
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: s9874203@titan.ucc.umass.edu (s9874203)
Subject: Re: a definition of the Communist in China
Organization: University of Massachusetts, Amherst
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 19:47:55 GMT

In article <1992Dec11.005113.29608@usage.csd.unsw.OZ.AU> zhang@solar.unsw.edu.au writes:
>
>Following is a definition of the Communist in China.
>
>
>Son (Jian Chen-2): "Dad, I have to do a special report for school.
>                    Can I ask you a question?"
>
>Father(Jian Chen): "Sure son. What's the question?"
>
>Son   : "What is the communist in our country?"
>
>Father:	"Well, let's take our home for an example.  I am the governor,  
>	so let's call me CCP or CG. Your mother always listen to me, so
>	let's call her C-Congress.  We look after you and train you well,
>	so let's call you my successor.  We will call the maid people and
>	your younger brother(Jian Chen-3) the Communist's Future.
>

[rest of the joke deleted.]

Before you tried to make (if any) points here, shouldn't you mention
that it is a rip-off from some joke posted on the net?
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: Ye <stacc0@QUANTUM.FIU.EDU>
Subject: (none)
Reply-To: Ye <stacc0@QUANTUM.FIU.EDU>
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 23:05:08 GMT
Comments: To: china-nt@uga.cc.uga.edu

>From:   IN%"echeng@phys.psu.edu"  "Eddie Cheng" 15-DEC-1992 08:13
>
>I am a poor postdoc (yes, not being well paid, unfortunately).  But
>I offer to match, in the same way you offered, the donation from
>full-time job holders you mentioned in your post.  My offer could
>also be retrospective, i.e., just tell me how much you donated in
>the *past*, I am also willing to match that *now*.

I guess you are not a postdoc in political 'science', otherwise you deserve
poor pay.

The truth is: political stand can never be bought with dollar or any other
currencies, it can only be claimed in position papers posted on china-nt,
free of charge.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: mliu@pt.com (Fred Liu)
Subject: Re: Question about Birth Certificate (IFCSS HQ NR-4081)
Organization: Performance Technologies, Incorporated
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 14:22:50 GMT

In article <BzBss0.BLz@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> IFCSS HQ <ifcss@WAM.UMD.EDU> writes:
>
>     a. Many students were told that a birth certificate would
>be required to apply for adjustment of status.
>     b. Many students have asked their families and friends in
>China to apply for such certificates;
>     c. Some were rejected by the Chinese Public Security Bureau
>which asked for a recommendation letter from the Chinese diplomatic
>offices in the U.S.;
>     d. Some Public Security Bureaus raised the application
>fees to 300-400 Chinese Yuan.
>
>     Please pay attention to the following advise:
>
>     It is not necessary to have a birth certificate from China.
>The INS has been accepting passport as a legally acceptable
>document for date of birth in cases of Chinese nationals.
>
I think all the confusions are partially lead by some "lawyer's
advises" appeared on "World Journal".  The lawyers tell people
to prepare "ANY" documents that might be useful.

-- 
Fred Liu, Performance Technologies Incorporated		mliu@pt.com
315 Science Parkway, Rochester, New York 14620		uupsi!ptsys1!mliu
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: J0L9320@TAMVENUS.BITNET
Subject:      Sign Off
Reply-To: J0L9320@TAMVENUS.BITNET
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 01:29:00 GMT
Comments: To: china-nt@uga.cc.uga.edu

Please sign me off.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china,soc.culture.hongkong
From: CHINA@UTKVX.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Patriotism
Reply-To: CHINA@UTKVX.BITNET
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 22:37:14 GMT
Comments: To: china-nt@uga.bitnet

>From:  UTKVX::IN%"library@SUNSPOT.SUNSPOT.NOAO.EDU"  "John Cornett" 14-DEC-1992
    16:13
>Subj:  RE: Patriotism
>
>While I love my family, I do not hold grudge or suspicion against others in
>Sunspot, and in fact my "family pride" tells me otherwise.  While I love my
>commmunity, I do not hold grudge against others in my state.... and so on.
>
>If a member of my family, community, or state, does wrong thing to others,
>I should be upset, because it reflects on me and on the concepts of tolerance
>and fairness, which family and society stress as important values.

Agree fully, Mr. Cornett. The problem is, some of us seem to believe that
"your love to your family" and "family pride" will lead you to holding
"grudge or suspicion against others", hence, should be morally denied.

>It could be only one more short step to be world citizen, it seems to me, and
>this may be a natural progression of humanity.

And to achieve that, the "love to family", which if being really "love" must
be of "pride" in nature in my opinion, is helpful.

>John Cornett

Jing Zhang
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: "micky wong" <micky.wong@canrem.com>
Subject: the nature of democracy
Reply-To: "micky wong" <micky.wong@canrem.com>
Organization: Canada Remote Systems
Distribution: talk
Date: 12 Dec 92 18:20:58 EST

In article: <meng.7@bobcat.lmc.edu>
   Subject: The Nature of Democracy
  From: meng@bobcat.lmc.edu (Xiao Qing Meng) writes:

> One section from  Roger M. Williams's essay "Socialism, Capitalism and
>Human Nature":

>       The Essence of Democracy
>

>   Quoted lines deleted for brevity.

When quoting recent publications, please provide the name of the
publisher and the date the book was published.

--
Canada Remote Systems  - Toronto, Ontario
World's Largest PCBOARD System - 416-629-7000/629-7044
From: Xiaowen Li <lix@CRSA.BU.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Patriotism
Reply-To: Xiaowen Li <lix@CRSA.BU.EDU>
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 00:24:45 GMT
Comments: cc: CHINA-NT@uga.cc.uga.edu

John Cornett wrote:
>In traditional Chinese society, I believe these include mutual respect and
>tolerance, an internal honor, honesty, fairness, patience, and hard work,
>among others. If one is patriotic to such principles, I believe he will be
>a great world citizen as well as a great citizen of his home country.

That is right!!! That is exactly what Dr. Johnny said, "A man loves his kids,
and also others;  loves his parents, and also others; loves his country, and
also others. It is called world harmony." Did Jesus say the same? I guess so.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: Xiaowen Li <lix@CRSA.BU.EDU>
Subject:      Re:  Open reply to a friend
Reply-To: Xiaowen Li <lix@CRSA.BU.EDU>
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 01:36:36 GMT
Comments: cc: CHINA-NT@uga.cc.uga.edu

JHL worte:
>                  Sadness, lix Reaches New Low

Thanks for your concerns, I was dragged down:-( I'll "ZhengZuo QiNai" later.

But what are your points? Is it OK to accuse a friend lying on his
back, based on poor imagination? :-)

His illogic is his, yours is yours:-) Did you really send email to Raymond
Luh to sign the SUMFN campign? If not, why did you ask expalation from
Raymond Luh as a "person"?

Answer me, please, if you are a "person".
From: library@SUNSPOT.SUNSPOT.NOAO.EDU (John Cornett)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
Subject: Re: Patriotism
Date: 14 Dec 92 16:08:26 GMT
Reply-To: John Cornett <library@SUNSPOT.SUNSPOT.NOAO.EDU>
Organization: Indiana University
Comments: To: china-nt@uga.cc.uga.edu

It seems possible that the concepts of patriotism and world citizenship could
co-exist. For example, I am a member of my family, I am a resident of Sunspot,
I am a "New Mexico" person, and also a citizen of the United States.
I hold loyalty to all of these.

While I love my family, I do not hold grudge or suspicion against others in
Sunspot, and in fact my "family pride" tells me otherwise.  While I love my
commmunity, I do not hold grudge against others in my state.... and so on.

If a member of my family, community, or state, does wrong thing to others,
I should be upset, because it reflects on me and on the concepts of tolerance
and fairness, which family and society stress as important values.

It could be only one more short step to be world citizen, it seems to me, and
this may be a natural progression of humanity.

This simply means that we have a stake in the future of the earth as a whole,
including our family and other; and that the greatest patriotism of all may be
to underlying concepts and principles which are supported by family, community,
province, country, and all of society.

In traditional Chinese society, I believe these include mutual respect and
tolerance, an internal honor, honesty, fairness, patience, and hard work,
among others. If one is patriotic to such principles, I believe he will be
a great world citizen as well as a great citizen of his home country.

John Cornett
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: Xiaowen Li <lix@CRSA.BU.EDU>
Subject:      Re:  Open reply to a friend
Reply-To: Xiaowen Li <lix@CRSA.BU.EDU>
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 04:33:06 GMT
Comments: cc: CHINA-NT@uga.cc.uga.edu

Well, before I deleted the long message without points, the last sentence
caught my eye:

>4. "Shame on you, who love China FROM ABROAD ONLY!" I conclude with quoting
>Xiong Bo.

Agreed. This our come ground at the least, so I got to read back...

>Did lix care if the wives and kids of the political prisoners
>think so?

Why not? Do you want to know how much I donated for them, or how many
letters I have signed for releasing politcal prisoners?

I have suggested to return for exchanging the release of Xiao Bin. I still
hope some human_right organizations able to help me to pass the message
around. Well, can IFCSS help me? If a few GaoGans could join me, or help
me, it would be great.

You D-fighters, just like P-fighters, are exactly those who shout beautiful
words ABROAD ONLY, P words or D words.

Well maybe I am wrong, you can organize a few fighters with me to tell the
CG clearly:

We are sincere, we don't value green card above everything. Pleas release
political prisoners and we will return to do our academic work silently.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: xlli@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (xiao-lin li)
Subject: Re: D & P fighters
Organization: Indiana University
Distribution: talk
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 17:30:39 GMT

In article <~~{5K~~}.92Dec10194636@owl.bunny.rhic.bnl.gov> ~~{5K~~}@bunny.rhic.bnl.gov (~~{5K6,F=~~}) writes:

>D-fighters: fight FOR democracy, whatever that is in their minds.
>P-fighters: fight AGAINST patriotism, whatever that is in their minds. 
>
The following is the complement:

----------
D-fighters: Fight AGAINST democracy, whatever that is not in their minds.
----------
P-fighters: Fight FOR patriotism, whatever that is not in their mind (
	    this is especially true since they are going to stay here :-)).
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 10:00:51 EST
From: <LXH108@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
Subject: Re: The Nature of Democracy (8)

Mr Lam: Without "killing xxx people in 6.4", China would have been in
chaos like garbage countries (Russia,east europe). For the sake of
the majority of the Chinese people, it's worth to do it.
The same token, for the sake of majority chinese people, it's worth
to "blood" bath XX, XX and XX if either they claim independence or
invite foreign nation's intervention.
Do not ask other people eat shit. eat youself. We know you enjoy eating.

Ni Daye!
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: Xiaowen Li <lix@CRSA.BU.EDU>
Subject:      Open reply to a friend
Reply-To: Xiaowen Li <lix@CRSA.BU.EDU>
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 02:53:36 GMT
Comments: cc: soc.culture.china@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu

A netter friend wrote to me:
>> (deleted, ... I said) : I just made some D-fighters
>> very nervous -- Have you seen their personal attack on me? I did not
> bother to reply yet, let it cool down.
>
>    Yes, I am wondering why you have not counterattacked.

Sorry friend, I am replying openly without your consent. I did not reply
because at the first place, my words may be very offensive:

"Shame on you, small report maker(s)"!!!

Well, I did not expect it touches the nerves of a few D-fighters so badly.

The second reason I did not reply, is their response is so illogical, that
I am waiting for other D-fighters to correct it:-) For example, a current
GaoGan JHL wrote:

>        The SUMFN Campaign Owns Public an Explanation
>      What has happended to its "national coordinator" ?
>(deleted)
>Regards
>
>Jinghong Li
>for and only for myself

It is very funny "Owns". So another former Gaogan corrected him:
>I am not a law expert, and Raymond Luh does not owe me "an explanation".

So this former GaoGan did not send any signature to Raymond Luh secretely,
I believe. Well, he did make some good suggestions to scare former SUMFN:-)
It is more funny than any possible reply from me.

Another funny but sad response was from <zhang@BU-AST.BU.EDU>, he said:
>I am really surprised by the following poster made by Mr. Lix. Seems
>a martyr or hero is in the making. Please do not.

Well I did not, did I ? :-)

>Especially please do not use one tiny event to mix with the whole picture.

It is tiny to you and me, but his wife and two kids may not think so.

>As a veteran on the netters, my distaste for your heroic friend is...
>(why he distastes ignored, rationality of small report deleted)
>
> (deleted) it is beyond the imagination,
>at least for me, that CG's National Security Bureau would inform the "victim"
>of their investigation:-).

Well, your poor imagination may be because you have no father, no friends,
may be, not sure. Anyway, try not to betray friends, well, a friend of mine,
maybe a friend of you also, met you and me in your apartment a few weeks ago.
Are you accusing him lying?  IFCSS is collecting reports about harrasement of
CG to CSS's family, your poor imagination is certainly not helpful for this
purpose.

I am not interested in fighting fighters:-)  I am afraid of them, either
D-fighters or P-fighters. But because of hiden accusation to me, I had to
say a few words, sorry about that.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: ~~{5K~~}@bunny.rhic.bnl.gov (~~{5K6,F=~~})
Subject: D & P fighters
Organization: ~~{W<9bKYVX@kWS6TW2;z~~}(Au+79)-> Little BIG BANG <-(Au+79)
Distribution: talk
Date: 10 Dec 92 19:46:36


Aren't D-fighters and P-fighters the same by definition ?  ;-)

D-fighters: fight FOR democracy, whatever that is in their minds.
P-fighters: fight AGAINST patriotism, whatever that is in their minds. 

--

~~{5K6,F=~~} 

~~{5K~~}@bunny.rhic.bnl.gov
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: Jinghong Li <jli@AMSC01.ENGR.UDAYTON.EDU>
Subject:      Relive SUMFN ?  was Re: Patriotism
Reply-To: Jinghong Li <jli@AMSC01.ENGR.UDAYTON.EDU>
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 18:31:10 GMT
Comments: cc: jli%amsc01@uunet.UU.NET

   Relive the SUMFN, again ?  A late reply to Jing Zhang

I don't read those loooong posts on the net - including the famuos
Jing Zhang (CHINA@utk).  So I missed his name calling post until
seeing another netter's reponse on the net.


>From: CHINA%UTKVX.BITNET@uga.cc.uga.edu
>Subject:      Re: Patriotism
>To: Multiple recipients of list CHINA-NT <CHINA-NT@uga.cc.uga.edu>
......
>(1) Agree, but isn't it funny that those who signed SUMFN have never
>expressed any concern for the possibility of being "misrepresented",
>whereas our Council Chairman who was never represented, hence impossibly
>being misrepresented, is asking for "explanation" ?

First of all, I have repeatedly stated that the posts were my personal
thought, should not be in anyway linked to the position I hold.  Mr.
Jing Zhang's repeat quoting of my title in ifcss is obviously inttentional
and qualifys as a "attacking technique".  Well, actually he knows me
much more than that %-( , hope he will not use titles, such as "a friend
of my roomate" and etc., in the future.

Secondly, there are many ways of representing someone.  When you go on
a nationwide campaign asking PUBLIC to sign up with you, don't you think
there are some responsibilities involved ?  For example, the US S&L
bank scandal, are you suggesting only those who were rubbed can cry out
for justice - others should all have their mouth shut ?

>(2) Another funny thing is that the "signing" of SUMFN was basically an
>event after Mr. Luh's resignation. Now I have to ask, is our Council
>Chairman so ignorant as to be unaware that SUMFN has never been Mr. Luh's
>personal movement ?

Well, if you don't even remember, or simply don't know the fact, I really
shouldn't expect much from you.  Go to read those old files, hmm, they
are not that old, are they?

>(3) Furthermore, our Council Chairman put much of his attention to Mr.
>Luh's "behind scene" activity after his resignation. Tell us what is wrong
>with that. I wish our "major" legislator --- Council Chairman's
>undertsanding to democracy was not that Mr. Wang Yang or Mr. Li Zuofeng
>should be forbidden of the right of public activity, --- for their
>resignation and for after their resignation, their activity has to
>be "behind the scene".

No, of course not mine, that was yours, or maybe what you want
others to believe in.  Ask the people you mentioned, did my posts help
them to more carefully and acurately re-write the campaign letter ?

--

Last but not least, Mr. Zhang seems having hard time to recover from
the then heated debates.  Let me give him an advise: Life gose on.
Please get over with those bitterness, there are more funs in life
if you look forward.

Thanks for your attention.

Jinghong Li
For and Only For Myself
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: IFCSS HQ <ifcss@WAM.UMD.EDU>
Subject:      Human Rights Day Candlelight Vigil (IFCSS HQ NR-4080)
Reply-To: IFCSS HQ <ifcss@WAM.UMD.EDU>
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 23:31:15 GMT
Comments: To: ccnl@utarlvm1.uta.edu, china-nt@uga.cc.uga.edu

**************************************************************
IFCSS Headquarters News Release No. 4080     December 14, 1992
             HUMAN RIGHTS DAY CANDLELIGHT VIGIL
**************************************************************
Independent Federation of Chinese Students and Scholars (IFCSS)
   733 15th Street, N.W., Suite 440, Washington, D.C.20005
         Tel. (202)347-0017  Fax: (202)347-0018
                Email: ifcss@wam.umd.edu


             Human Rights Day Candlelight Vigil
             ==================================

     It snowed all day and it was a windy, rainy and cold night,
but despite all that, more than 50 Chinese students and Americans
participated in the Candlelight Vigil in front of the Chinese
Embassy on December 10, the international human rights day.

     The vigil was sponsored by Amnesty International and IFCSS.
All IFCSS HQ officers joined the activity. During the vigil,
candles were lit, a tape recorder played some Tiananman themed
pieces of music, the parcicipants read a list of political
prisoners. Some students from University of Maryland drove
forty minutes to join the activity. The whole vigil lasted
one hour (one hour short of scheduled time because of the
bad weather).


*********************************************************************
*                   The Missions of IFCSS                           *
* Promote freedom, democracy, human rights and rule of law in China *
* Assist the development of  scienece, culture and economy in China *
* Represent the interests of Chinese students and scholars in U.S.A *
* IFCSS is a non-profit organization and has tax-exempt status.     *
*********************************************************************
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: Zhengzhi Wang <wang@MIRA.ASTRO.UCLA.EDU>
Subject:      why do our academic work silently?
Reply-To: Zhengzhi Wang <wang@MIRA.ASTRO.UCLA.EDU>
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 06:52:11 GMT
Comments: To: CHINA-NT@uga.cc.uga.edu

>>We are sincere, we don't value green card above everything. Pleas release
>>political prisoners and we will return to do our academic work silently.
                                                                 ^^^^^^^^
>>lix


You are a good role model of our chinese citizens. Shut up our mouth. Be
silent. Every chinese does so. Then there would never be political prisoners
at all. Why bother to exchange the release of xxxxxx (anyone) ?

However, do we chinese deserve treatment other than being silent labor ?

For a scientist, whose professional is to pursue scientific truths,
it is more natural to do his academic work as well as to pursue
social justice than to do the work silently.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: Xiaowen Li <lix@CRSA.BU.EDU>
Subject:      Spy stories
Reply-To: Xiaowen Li <lix@CRSA.BU.EDU>
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 19:56:20 GMT
Comments: cc: zhang@BU-AST.BU.EDU

By advice from friends, known or unkown, I sent a private email to
Mr. YunFei Zhang, encouraging him to write his spy stories of Lix.

But sorry I cann't wait too long. How are the stories going, Mr. YunFei
Zhang?

I suddenly realize that I have to make one thing very clear. Mr. YunFei
Zhang wrote:

>By the way, just
>for curiosity, when you visited my apartment in that evening, what you have
>in mind? visiting an acquaintance's place or spying at an enemy's house?

Absolutely not spying, I swear. I take this seriously because your wife called
me at home. No matter I am a spy or not, she is absolutely innocent. I hope
you would make this very clear in your spy story.

Thanks in advance.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china