HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: howland@noc2.arc.nasa.gov (Curtis Howland)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: You Know You're In The SCA......
Date: 5 Nov 92 09:56:53 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: NASA Science Internet Project Office

In article <1667@niktow.canisius.edu>, salley@niktow.canisius.edu (David Salley) writes:
|> Kyalynne Hawkesborough writes:
|> > 	...when you call the board meeting to order by shouting:
|> > 	"MY LORDS AND LADIES - PRAY ATTEND!"....  :)

|> I stood silent for nearly a minute because I had no idea
|> how to start this kind of announcement mundanely.  My lady finally
|> whispered, "Try 'Your attention please'".  ;)

It's amazing how a good loud "Oyez!" will stop people
in their tracks mundanely. Seems to be a function of
the unexpected....

---
Christofer de Hoyland    howland@nsipo.nasa.gov 
Province of the Southern Shores,
Principality of the Mists, Kingdom of the West.
From: c1741@moncol.monmouth.edu (MICHAEL CARSON)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: >swords...
Date: 5 Nov 92 20:10:11 GMT
Organization: Monmouth College, W. Long Branch, N.J.  07764

In article <1992Nov4.211436.2657@nmt.edu> toad@nmt.edu (Tod Landis) writes:
>I have just one question about the "red-neck" incedent, why do only the 
>"red-necks" have guns? Granted this state(New Mexico) has some of the 
>lamest gun laws about, but a gun locked away in ones car seems reasonable. 

	Huh?  I thought NM said if you could strap it on, it was legal.  In
NJ if you can strap it on it almost assuredly ISN'T legal.  Anyway, a Lone
Ranger gun rig might be rather OOP, but you could always just keep it handy.
You suggested your car, I might suggest somewhat nearer, if to do so wasn't to
incur liability on myself.

|o|\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/|o|
|o| Of Course I speak  |      michael carson       | Carpe Diem, Man.        |o|
|o|  only for myself.  | c1741@moncol.monmouth.edu | Carpe Vitam, too.       |o|
|o| Would YOU let me   +---------------------------+-------------------------|o|
|o|  speak for you?!?  |      All flames to: nobody@moncol.monmouth.edu      |o|
|o|\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/|o|
From: habura@vccnorthb.its.rpi.edu (Andrea Marie Habura)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: "period" wristwatches
Date: 12 Nov 92 13:24:22 GMT
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy, NY

Moreach asks about hiding wristwatches.

To be honest, I rather wish that we could break our 20th century reliance on
precisely-measured time. However, seeing as how we all have to get back to
work on Monday, we can't run events that way, so....

The two solutions that seem to work best:

My personal fave, 14th century garb. The cotehardie sleeve ideally descends
over the hand, terminating at the knuckle. This makes it really tough to
embroider or wash dishes (which is why I'll do almost any work at an event
except dishwashing duty), but it's really good for hiding a wristwatch. I've
startled several people by flipping back my sleeve and telling them the time.

If you inhabit a period that would have worn a metal disc about 3" in diameter
as an ornament (hung from a chatelaine on the belt, or from a cord around the
neck, or whatever), you can use a pocketwatch. The trick is finding one that
doesn't have pictures of leaping deer on it. Expect to spend about $30. You
can ornament the cover with jewels or whatnot to make it look like a 
pomander or something. 

Alison MacDermot
(Who's late, who's late, for a very important date...)
From: sherman@trln.lib.unc.EDU ("Dennis R. Sherman")
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: re: out-of-period dancing
Date: 11 Nov 92 13:53:20 GMT
Organization: The Internet

Greetings to the Rialto from Robyyan.

Simon catches me:
>Robyyan writeth:
>
>   A rule of thumb previously mentioned -- if the dance is for a longways
>   set, it doesn't look period to many of us who have studied dance.
>
>*Any* longways set, or "longways for as many as will"?  I've always assumed
>the longways sets of three couples were okay (e.g. Geloxia, if not the
>English country from first Playford).

You're right.  My fingers weren't keeping up with what I was thinking, 
and I left the phrase "for as many as will" out.  My apologies.

*--------------------------------------------------------------------*
* Robyyan Torr d'Elandris  Kapellenberg, Windmaster's Hill  Atlantia *
*--------------------------------------------------------------------*
* Dennis R. Sherman  	         Triangle Research Libraries Network *
* dennis_sherman@unc.edu       Univ. of North Carolina - Chapel Hill *
*--------------------------------------------------------------------*
From: sherman@trln.lib.unc.EDU ("Dennis R. Sherman")
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Facsimile IL BALLARINO?? Where?
Date: 9 Nov 92 16:55:10 GMT
Organization: The Internet

Greetings to the Rialto from Robyyan.

And apologies too -- I'd prefer to do this in email, but my site 
doesn't seem to get to Vashti.  I've been trying on and off for a 
couple of months.

Vashti writes:
> For the adventurous and scholarly, one may also order facsimile copies of
> Caroso's IL BALLERINO and Cesare Negri's (???-Mind blanked..) D'AMORE in 
                                           ^GRAZIE
> the  orignal Italian and translate them yourself.

Do you have a source for IL BALLARINO?  Where?  I want it!!!  Negri is 
available (fairly cheaply) from UMI in Ann Arbor, MI, as a doctoral 
thesis by Gustavia Yvonne Kendall -- translation with facing page 
facsimile.  Cost me about $35 when I got it, but I was able to 
honestly say I'm connected with a University, which I think gets you a 
cheaper price.

*--------------------------------------------------------------------*
* Robyyan Torr d'Elandris  Kapellenberg, Windmaster's Hill  Atlantia *
*--------------------------------------------------------------------*
* Dennis R. Sherman  	         Triangle Research Libraries Network *
* dennis_sherman@unc.edu       Univ. of North Carolina - Chapel Hill *
*--------------------------------------------------------------------*
From: SAUNDRSG@qucdn.queensu.ca (Graydon)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: technical archery (was visible inauthenticity of archery)
Date: 7 Nov 92 17:27:00 GMT
Organization: The Internet

Greetings!

A note to Gwydion - the clout distances used by the English
longbow societies (Bowmen of Arden, Archer Antiquaries, etc.)
are 12 and 14 score yards.  I don't know what they use for
documentation of these distances.  If you are having serious overshoot
problems, try making some heavy war arrows.  Doing clout with a
target arrow that will just go *bounce* when it gets there doesn't
make a lot of sense, now does it? :]

Note to Fiacha - more or less in order

The military use of longbows (that is, 6 foot sticks used as bows)
dates from the dim past; I am just a little dubious that the
Heroic age Norse had lathes (else why is all the furniture square?)
but they certainly had longbows.  (Both D section and flat section
bows have been dug out of neolithic strata in bogs).
It *is* possible that the general source of arrows was hardwood shoots
up until the heavy use of bows in war that started (again) around 1100, but
I'm kinda dubious the Romans didn't have arrows in serious production.
I'm also dubious that people who could split planks out of logs couldn't
split arrows out, too.

Have you ever used a pole lathe?  The things are slow, cranky, fussy,
require a *lot* of space, and how exactly do you intend to hold a
.4 inck diameter dowel between the lathe centres without splitting it?
(I'm an apprentice cabinetmaker mundanely; please go take a look at an
operator's manual for a lathe, and the table of recomended minimum
diameters for distances between centers.)

The obvious way to make arrows is to plane a square blank down to
almost round and grind it the rest of the way.  This uses much simpler
equipment than a lathe, and is in fact the recomended method for making
arrows in a 30's vintage book.  I'll let the Rialto know how I'm finding
it just as soon as I get some results.

Whitling arrows (holding onto the stick and carving) would be an
immense amount of work; it wouldn't work really well, either, since
the margin for error is very small.  (An arrow's effective spine
has a lot more to do with where the thickest cross section is than
the average cross section.)  A simple wooden specialty plane and
equally simple wooden jig will produce consistent results, in a fraction
of the time.

The image of the simple rustic village fletcher doesn't hold up very
well for the 14th century; the Crown had a tendency to order a million
arrows a year.  The bishops and the barons maintained archers, too.
So did many towns.  There would have been enourmous pressure to make
arrows *fast*, or at least no slower than could be helped to get a
good arrow.

Graydon
Organization: Doctoral student, Industrial Administration, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 00:10:49 -0500 
From: David Schroeder <ds4p+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: educational value of the SCA


Good gentles --

Tio <Jeff Suzuki> writes:

> Bertram contends that the SCA is not educational.  I would disagree

And I, in turn, would disagree 
with your assertion about my contention <smile>...

What I said, in the context of the paradox of the Society's
tention between fantasy and authenticity, was:

>We were (and _are_ still, mostly) a _fantasy_ organization dedicated to
>recreating some idealistic/Victorian/Tolkienesque vision of the Middle 
>Ages, *BUT* we couldn't put *THAT* down on the incorporation papers 
>and use it to get tax exempt status as an educational non-profit
>organization, so we fudged things a bit to get past the IRS.
>Remember, folks, this was Berkeley in 1968 or thereabouts
>(the SCA didn't incorporate immediately).
>
>The convenient fiction of claiming to be an educational and historical
>re-creation organization was just that, a fiction, and that was fine
>so long as the SCA's geographic scope was limited so that the tacit
>understanding (done through phrases like "the Middle Ages as they
>_should_ have been) could be easily shared.

State governments have fairly strict standards for determining
which groups qualify for tax-exempt status.  I believe the basic
principle at work is 'rewarding' groups that provide a social
benefit.  I was not claiming that the Society isn't educational,
merely that a few facts might have been stretched in the early
days to make us fit the state of California's definition of a
non-profit educational organization.

Further, I'll claim that the *intent* of the folks who started
the Society was to create a context for chivalrous fantasies.
We're a good deal closer to the sort of group California wanted
to 'reward' today than we were when the SCA began, but we're
still a long way from fitting the model of a school or museum
or the like.  Our primary activities, after all, are for OUR
benefit.

Of COURSE the SCA is educational--your comments on enthusiasm
strongly underline how joy-filled learning can be in the Society.

But we're not a typical non-profit educational corporation. 
That's all I meant--the formal legal definition of 'educational.'

Thanks for your patience, folks -- Bertram

+-----------------------------------------------------------------------+
Bertram of Bearington                                      Dave Schroeder
Debatable Lands/AEthelmearc/East               Carnegie Mellon University
INTERNET: ds4p@andrew.cmu.edu                         412/731-3230 (Home)
+------------------------ PREME * Press On * PREME ---------------------+
      "He indulged in every excess, yes in each licentious whim..." 
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: UCCXDEM <UCCXDEM@MVS.UCC.OKSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Group activity
Organization: Oklahoma State University Computer Center
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 22:06:00 GMT

>Unto the good gentles of the Rialto come greetings from Elwyn of Thornbury!
Much deleted.
>The question under discussion is "Should groups be required to hold a minimum
>number of events?"  Inherent in his negative response to this question is the
>It was, and still is, my contention that groups not willing to hold events for
>a non-local populace are in danger of stagnation, and that requiring them to
>sponsor such events -- requiring them to interact, at least minimally, with
>the Kingdom at large -- is a measure intended to try to reverse or at least
>delay their decline.
>                Ld Elwyn of Thornbury
>                (Barony of the Lonely Tower, Kingdom of Calontir)
Elwyn,
In your missive you site the Barony of the Lonely Tower as an example,
but although a very good example. The Barony might have pulled out of
their rut because of the (baronial member becoming) Crown pulling other
baronial members to play Kingdom as part of the Crown's retinue. As
other shires and baronies see your baronial populace at non-home events
then the others will take an interest in the people of your group and
visit.

Here is a good example of what I would consider a stagnate group or
at least a group that is not going forward. There is a shire close to
my home shire (distance wise) that holds two events a year. This group
has many members and some Peers. 3 of the Peers do not play with their
home shire. This shire does not get many people from the rest of the
kingdom to come to their events. I think that this lack of participation
from the rest of the kingdom is due to the lack of people from their
group going to other events. I am talking about traveling more than 1.5
hours. The same 3 or 4 people from that group are the ones doing the
traveling. Also as another possible effect is the blatant bias that
has been shown in their spring tourney. The spring tourney they hold
is a martial,arts and sciences competition. I can't say whether or not
if their event in 1991 was biased, but their 1992 tourney was. A Lord
of the their shire "won" the tourney, but many people including myself
tracked who won what category and who placed. By our figures another
person from another group should have won. It also doesn't help that
the winner is a member of the household that was doing the judging and
running the event.
 These kind of things do not help get other kingdom groups to come
 to their events. But, then again I glad I don't live there.

                                         H.L. Marke
From: MKNETTEL@kentvm.kent.EDU ("Mary Knettel ", Genevieve)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Teaching dance at revels (was OOP Dance/fun period dances)
Date: 13 Nov 92 13:37:25 GMT
Organization: The Internet

Vashti asks how people handle teaching dance at revels.
If it's been an all-day dance event (like the one held recently
in Debatable Lands -- which was most enjoyable), the dances
were not re-taught at the revel, but there was some prompting
from within the sets or circles for those who had missed that
class, or perhaps a quick "talk-through" of the steps from the
dance master who ran the class.

At events, sometimes it's just easier to ask for a show of
hands -- "Who doesn't know this dance?"  If there are enough
people who do know it, the inexperienced can be mixed with
the experienced who will either quick-teach them in their sets
or show them the steps ahead of time, or partner switching so
that the experienced person drags the other one through.

If the majority don't know it, but want to do it, then you end
up teaching.

In our local area (Gwyntarian, Cleftlands, Eastwatch) of NE-Ohio,
we are blessed with many experienced and enthusiastic dancers,
who will often meet the dance master at the car before meetings,
take away the boom-box and box of tapes, and run off to start
the dancing themselves.  Since they get weekly or monthly practice,
they need little prompting, can be relied upon to help teach
at dessert revels, dance nights, and events.  We are spoiled!

In the local contra-dance and english country dance community,
switching partners after each dance is the normal procedure.
This is good for a few reasons:  People get to meet more people
in the group, the inexperienced get to dance with more experienced
people, everyone's dance skills are strengthened by not always
dancing with the same partner.

It's sometimes hard to do, but encouraging people to switch
partners occasionally (especially if you need to pair up experienced
with non-experienced dancers) can help.

I ended up running dancing at an event (not in my local area) where
the local dance practices had been spent practicing for a performance
piece.  Unfortunately, they hadn't practiced or been taught much of
anything else.  We ran through some dances and taught based on
show of hands, or pairing people up, and things went pretty
well, until they wanted to do Hole in the Wall.  Unfortunately for
the dancers, my Hole in the Wall tape runs through twice.  That's it.
About 2 minutes worth.  Unfortunately for me, they found someone else's
tape, which ran about 20 min.  In self-defense, I'm going to make up
a slightly longer tape, perhaps 5 or 8 minutes.  This way people
can dance, but we won't spend the entire evening doing Hole in the Wall,
especially since many events run over-time and the dancing is left
with the last few minutes before the site closes.

-Genevieve du Vent Argent, Marche of Gwyntarian, MidRealm
 (dance mistress by default)
 Mary Knettel, KSU, Kent, OH  mknettel @ kentvm.kent.edu
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Subject: Re: swords
Reply-To: whheydt@PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 20:51:34 GMT

In article <1992Nov9.185650.13581@ee.gatech.edu> ldh@eedsp.gatech.edu (Lonnie D Harvel) writes:
>Alas, I have been fortunate in the events that I have attended.
>I have been aware of thefts at events, but the attempts to
>force entry into revel sites is distressing.  

In general, I think your fortune *is* general.  At most events I've
ever been at, there have be few or no problems--and the problems have
been minor.

There are, however, exceptions.  We tend to focus on the exceptions
without realizing that this provides a skewed sample.  The exceptions
are probably best thought of as warnings that vigilance to a degree is
always called for.  Those of us living in cities routinly lock our
cars and try to but valuable items out of sight.  Not because our own
cars are regularly burglarized--but because the *might* be.

The normal vigilance you describe is all that is needed--*unless* (and
until) something happens that requires stronger actionat a particluar
event, or a pattern develops that warrants extra care.

Another factor in normal conditions is that some of oour folks
generally *are* out there keeping an eye on things--that others may be
careless in reasonable safety.

For those--*especially* Pelicans--that are very active in your local
groups and prone to seeing that those who deserve recognition get it,
keep an eye out for those doing such guard duty.  In  my experience,
they are rather frequently people who want to do positive things for
the Society, but are too shy to put themselves forward.  They continue
to perform vital duties 'in the shadows' and get overlooked entirely
too often.  Even as those that spend their time in the kitchen or
sweeping the hall--don't forget those out beating the bounds.  They
are serving us all.

	--Hal

        Hal Ravn, Province of the Mists, West Kingdom
        Wilson H. Heydt, Jr.,  Albany, CA 94706,  510/524-8321 (home)
-- 
Hal Heydt                    |    "Boycott Time-Warner"
Analyst, Pacific*Bell        |         --J. Danforth Quayle
510-823-5447                 |    "... kill all the lawyers."
whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM    |         --William Shakespeare
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: CS341A002@husky1.stmarys.ca ("Loki a.k.a. Brynjolfr Myrkjartanarson")
Subject: Antagonizing rednecks
Organization: The Internet
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 13:33:00 GMT

Jeff Suzuki writes, answering me:
>>>If gun toting idiot is going to shoot you anyway, you'd be dead before
>>>you ever got into sword range.  
>>
>>Oh, most definitely not. Rednecks are typically endowed with massive
>>amounts of machismo and prefer to intimidate their opponents to killing
>>them. They'll only kill you if they've built up huge amounts of anger...
>
>Exactly my point.  Why antagonize them?  Why not just --- even though
>it sounds very much like wimping out --- ignore them?  If the gun
>toting rednecks get their joy out of intimidating people, do you think
>they're going to hang around a bunch of people who won't be
>intimidated?  

   It doesn't work. Ignoring rednecks infuriates them. It is a *very*
dangerous practice... A frustrated redneck is capable of almost anything.

   They're already pre-antagonized. We're talking about a xenophobic
subculture here... being Nice & Friendly won't work.

         Loki         | cs341a002@husky1.stmarys.ca | Brynjolfr Myrkjartanarson
 often sysop of TWWOL | cs341a002@stmarys.bitnet    |    Compaignie Mercurie

Well, folks, you'll soon see a baked Appel.

                 --- George Appel before his execution by electric chair
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: TALLAN@flis.utoronto.ca (David)
Subject: Re: Eoforwic
Organization: The Internet
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1992 13:03:10 GMT

Franz Joder von Joderhuebel writes in SCA Digest V5 #758:
> Essentially, this would be like Eoforwic, but it would be counterproductive to
> worry about title equivalency; "Landamman" has no SCA equivalent that I can
> think of.  I'd just go for maximal authenticity and forget about compatibility,
> including any titles of nobility we decided to use.

I'm not sure if you are referring to the Cite of Eofirwyck (or however
it's spelled today) or the Canton of Eoforwic. Neither worried about
compatibilty between the SCA and the real middle ages. The Canton is
an official SCA group and as such follows official SCA naming
practices (i.e., a canton is a group within a barony. It has a
seneschal, a marshal, an exchequer, etc.) The city is not
official, it follows the medieval ignoring SCA practices (or
certainly tries to, inso much as it can and function within the
SCA).
David Tallan who is almost speaking as
Thomas Grozier, Lorde Myour of the Aunciente Citie of Efyrwick
David Tallan (tallan@flis.utoronto.ca)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: dburgdor@cwis.unomaha.edu (Darryl Burgdorf)
Subject: Re: medieval music (was: Strip the Willow )
Organization: University of Nebraska at Omaha
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1992 02:05:25 GMT


Lord Simon:

I have to agree with (Lady?) Ellisef on this.  I have been doing some research
into early-period musical development, and while by no means an expert, have
not encountered either any assertion that post-Gregorian chant is somehow
automatically "Rennaissance" or a tie between the development of musical
notation and the Rennaissance.

The system of Gregorian chants was formalized by the 9th century.  The first
"landmark" in subsequent musical development was the Ars Nova period (c 1300),
which featured several notable changes (particularly the emergence of major/
minor duality to replace modalism and the switch from fourths and fifths as
the intervals of choice to thirds and sixths).  The beginning of the 
Rennaissance in music has been tied by various scholars to different events,
but the earliest dates I have encountered are in the 1350-1400 period.

The earliest attempts at musical notation were neumes, which are pretty much
as old as the Gregorian chants with which they were utilized.  Ligatures
evolved from "heighted" neumes during the 12th century, and had pretty much
evolved into notation recognizable to modern musicians by the 1400's.

(Sorry for being a bit pedantic .... I get that way sometimes!)

	Ld Elwyn of Thornbury

 ------------------------------------------------
| dburgdor @unmcvm.unmc.edu or @cwis.unomaha.edu |
 ------------------------------------------------

Any mistakes are my own, and I'm DAMN proud of them!

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca