HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mattb@ctron.com (Matt Brown)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Characters I Hate to Love
Date: 1 Oct 92 20:44:23 GMT
Reply-To: mattb@olympus.ctron.com (Matt Brown)
Organization: Cabletron Systems INc.

(Eric Oppen) writes:
>
>On the recent "books I hate to love" thread:

>There are characters who fascinate me, and who I can't help admiring, even
>though I know that I should be rooting for their downfall, and often do,
>while deploring its necessity.

>Case in point:  The Draka people, of S.M. Stirling's novels (_Marching
>Through Georgia_, _Under the Yoke_, and _The Stone Dogs_.)

>Anybody else got any comments?


Fascinate, I can grant you.
Interesting books and alternate histories.

Admire? That's like admiring Eichmann for being an over-achiever.
Then again, I suppose impaling is just effective law enforcement.
And slavery is just effective resource management.

My alternate title for the series:
        Apartheid: It Isn't Just for Blacks Anymore

Aside from that, the entire military premise for the first book is ludicrous.

Matt
On second thought, they had strong family values...
From: Beth.Friedman@p5.f341.n282.z1.tdkt.kksys.com (Beth Friedman)
Sender: FredGate@tdkt.kksys.com
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Name query
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1992 22:40:48 -0600

 JN> Does anyone know where I might have read the name 
 JN> Melisende? I'm not sure whether it was in a book or 
 JN> not, but it is certainly slightly familiar. The 
 JN> character might have been a queen, although again, I 
 JN> cannot be sure.

I don't know where you encountered the name, but I know it from a book I've been
trying to find for years, a children's fantasy in which the main character, the
youngest daughter, is an unwilling witch.  (No, I don't mean LITTLE WITCH -- I
remember that one too, but that had a lighter feel to it.)  This one was a
fairly slim hardcover that I read only in a library version.
  
Does anyone remember any book matching this description?

 * Origin: Beth's Point: Minneapolis, MN (1:282/341.5)
From: rob@hoster.eng.ohio-state.edu (Rob Carriere)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Characters I Hate to Love
Date: 3 Oct 92 07:03:30 GMT
Article-I.D.: ee.1992Oct3.070330.10823
Organization: The Ohio State University Dept of Electrical Engineering

In article <1992Oct2.162307.4520@bb1t.monsanto.com> bjgaed@bb1t.monsanto.com
writes: 
>In article <1992Oct2.060548.8454@ee.eng.ohio-state.edu>,
rob@hoster.eng.ohio-state.edu (Rob Carriere) writes: 
>> In article <1afu0oINN505@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> sdh5@po.CWRU.Edu (Scott D.
>> Hurley) writes: 
>>>Remember, evil is *supposed* to be more tempting than good [...]
>> 
>> Indeed?
>
>Indeed!
>
>If good were more tempting than evil, then humans would choose good 
>over evil most of the time, a situation which does not pertain.  
>
>q.e.d.

You presuppose that the notions of good and evil as well as the degree of
temptation felt for any given act, are constants accross the species.  I don't
believe your presupposition is universaly true.

SR
---
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: eliz@ai.mit.edu (Elizabeth Willey)
Subject: Re: Gormenghast vol. 3
Organization: MIT Artificial Intelligence Laboratory
	<1992Sep3.163007.3195@bnr.ca> <9847@kralizec.zeta.org.au>
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1992 17:07:10 GMT

Aldis Ozols writes:

   grey@bnr.ca (Bryan Miller) writes:

   >|> haven't been able to locate them. Can someone please
   >|> post the ISBNs so I can order them?
   >|>

   From my 1970s Penguin paperback versions:

   Titus Groan: ISBN 0 14 00.2762 9
   Gormenghast: ISBN 0 14 00.2890 0
   Titus Alone: ISBN 0 14 00.3091 3

I missed the original posting, but if it was a request for Mervyn
Peake's _Gormenghast_ books, this information is not quite all you
need.  You should check _Books in Print_ at your local library or
bookstore, because a new edition of all three, in very attractive and
readable large-size paperback, has recently been issued (sorry, I don't
own the books, and I don't have information on publisher).  I have
heard that this edition contains a more complete version of _Titus
Alone_ than has previously appeared, and I would recommend getting
this newer edition (sight unseen) rather than picking up an older
version.


Elizabeth Willey
From: lavonius@kruuna.Helsinki.FI (Ville Lavonius)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Any Brin news ?
Date: 26 Sep 92 14:10:48 GMT
Organization: Vidal Sassoon's Mosh&Go


Agh, I haven't kept in touch with SF lately (say, in a year), so be patient 
with me.

Has David Brin published or given any notice when he will publish the
fourth Uplift novel. The last bits of info I've got are from Gurps Uplift,
(some 18 mo's ago), where there was clues of a novel called Sooners.

If the subject has already been discussed to death here, please send me a
note in e-mail.

Thanks in advance.
--
Ville Lavonius	        University of Helsinki, Dept. of Computer Science
lavonius@cc.helsinki.fi : "Some of my best friends are nukes" - R. Reagan
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: YANJUNA@YaleVM.YCC.Yale.Edu
Subject: Re: Books I Hate to Love
Organization: Yale University
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 92 18:25:19 EDT

In article <1ad5nsINNqrj@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>
sdh5@po.CWRU.Edu (Scott D. Hurley) writes:
 
>
>
>This train of thought reminds me of an observation I've made
>lately--is it just my imagination, or does there seem to be
>a shifting trend towards protagonistic villains, antagonists so
>wonderfully shaped that one ends up rooting for them instead of
>the 'Good Guys'?
>
>Classic examples are Kahn Noonion Soong (I think that's how it is
>spelled), of Star Trek:  The Saurons of Pournelle's Co-Dominion
>universe: and The Lady of Glen Cook's _Annals_of_The_Black_
>Company_ series.
>
>Of course they're have been others in literature, most notably
>Dracula, Frankenstein, Nemo, and Professor Moriarty, but it
>seems to me that now we have adversaries that are preferable
>to the so-called protagonists.
>
>Any comments?
 
   Frankly, I wonder why everyone admires the heroes of stories rather
than the villians.  Would you rather be Luke Skywalker, or Darth Vader?
Most heroes (in the classical sense) go through hardships, sees friends
lovers and families get killed, and barely wins in the end.  In fact,
in most stories there is no mention whether they indeed lived happily
ever after.  (Actually, if we take the sequelization trend, then the
main characters rarely gets to live happily ever after.)
  Now, the villains, on the other hand, gets to loot, pillage, steal,
push the peasants around, get the girls, and otherwise lives a fairly
fun and exciting life until the next-to-last chapter when they are
defeated.  (In fact, if there is a sequel, then there is every chance
that they are brought back to life, and gets to pillage, steal and
plunder again until the next-to-last chapter again, while the hero
gets to struggle through the muck again.)
   There was a PBS special a few years back, where Kurt Vonnegut Jr. was
instructing some college students on how to write a short story.  He
said that the author should not treat the main character kindly; that
the key to a story was conflict, which means that the main character
should go through horrendous experiences in the course of the story.
As an example, he used the story by Guy de Maupassant (sp?) "The
Necklace."  Authors are real sadistic SOBs, aren't they?
 
                                 Junsok Yang (YANJUNA @YALE)
From: jbeason@s.psych.uiuc.edu (Joseph E. Beason)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Cherryh
Date: 28 Sep 92 20:49:13 GMT
Organization: UIUC Department of Psychology

verseman@STL-07SIMA.ARMY.MIL ("Amy N. Verseman") writes:

> is not immediately familiar.  My husband, who is more mechanically
>inclined, tends to make word lists while reading her stuff.  You
>shouldn't have to do that with a novel.  End of tirade.   
>I really don't understand why she can't translate that great short
>style  to the novels, rather than going all fusty on me!

>Amy V.

I really like books that make me look up words.  Words are so cool, 
especially new ones.  My sister-in-law once complained that I used too many
"big words" in a letter I sent her.  Never wrote her again...

Joe,
eternally indebted to S.R.Donaldson for abnegation, among other words
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: sej5g@poe.acc.Virginia.EDU (Susan Elizabeth Juroff)
Subject: Re: Musical SF and F
Organization: University of Virginia
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1992 01:13:20 GMT

Try Charles deLint, 'Moonheart', "Harp of the Grey Rose',
Greenmantle', 'THE LITTLE COUNTRY' or anything by him. He's a
folk musician, a phenomenal writer, quite prolific, but I can't
seem to find much of his stuff. If you like 'THe War for the
Oaks, you'll like deLint. Hell, you'll like him anyway. I lose
more of his books by loaning them out....
--
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: baum-cjb013@email.comm.mot.com (Joe Baum)
Subject: Re: Recommendations??
Organization: Motorola_Communications_LMPS
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 21:15:37 GMT

In article <1992Sep29.171520.15007@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu>, cpeckham@nyx.cs.du.edu (Chris Peckham) writes:
> 
> Hi,
> Can anyone out there recommend some good sf/f stories and authors
> which investigate any of the following:
> 
> 1) Unusual/questioning relationships between _good_ and _evil_
>
 
Try Heinlens' (sp) _JOB: A Tragic Comedy_ (or something like that). It's an
irreverant look and Catholecism mixed well with paganism, Satan appearing as 
a congenial Texan, and Loki (ala Valhalla) mucking things up.

> 2) Loss of innocence/corruption by _evil_
>
 
The Elric Saga....Lawlessnes and Chaos all rolled into one.

> 3) Mysticism and ambiguity
>
 
See above under 1

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Final Exit For Cats: A Feline Suicide Guide Excerpt/
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
If you thrill to the precision and speed of a fine motorcar, try this one:
Open the Hood. Drink all the brake fluid. Close the hood. Sit in the car
and beg to go for a ride.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                     \Rgrds Joe/
                      ~~~~~~~~~
From: djh@siesoft.co.uk (Duncan Head)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Co-Dominium Universe
Date: 29 Sep 92 16:26:00 GMT
Organization: Siemens Nixdorf Information Systems Ltd.
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4

YANJUNA@YaleVM.YCC.Yale.Edu writes (of Jerry Pournelle):
:  
:    Personally, I liked King David's Spaceship and parts of "The Mercenary."
: as well as his collaborations with David Niven...
                                     ^^^^^
:  
:               Junsok Yang (YANJUNA @YALE)
:  

  This has to be my favourite typo of the week.  "Janissaries: an
  Ealing Comedy directed by Jerry Pournelle, starring David Niven."

  I think you meant "Larry".

  Duncan Head
  djh@siesoft.co.uk
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: cpf@alchemy.TN.Cornell.EDU (Courtenay Footman)
Subject: Re: Diane Duane, _Door Into Fire_
Keywords: edition differences
Organization: Alchemy International, Ithaca, N.Y.
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1992 16:38:41 GMT

My copy of "Door into Fire" is the first (Dell) edition.  Diane Duane revised
DiF when it was reissued.  How extensive, important, and good are the revisions?
I skimmed a copy of the new edition in a bookstore, and noticed only a few
differences, most of which seemed to be rather heavy-handed foreshodowings
of events in the second book.   Am I missing something important here.


P.S  I have not been able to get the third book, because my SF bookstore's
British distributor has gone bankrupt.  Diane's curse is alive and well.


-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Courtenay Footman			I finally got back on the net.

cpf@alchemy.ithaca.ny.us		Now I will never get anything done
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Elizabeth Hand
From: nmlrc@uwpg02.uwinnipeg.ca
Date: 6 OCT 92 15:40:52 CST
Organization: University of Winnipeg

Has anyone out there read Elizabeth Hand? (Is this to general a question?)
I have been following the newsgroup for a month and have seen no
mention of her.  She is a relatively new writer - her first novel
_Winterlong_ came out last year, and _Aestival Tide_ came out this
year (or there abouts - I read them in paper so I could be out a
year).  She falls into the biogenetic stream, and has an intriguing
vision of the world.  The books are not for the squeamish or for
the homophobic but I did not find her overly sensational.
        She plays with both Christian and Eastern mythology and
seems to have a broad literary base (I believe she has a Master's
in English - which does not necessarily imply a broad literary base :-)).
I would be curious to find out more about her, and what people's
responses to her are.

Miriam Unruh
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: markrose@spss.com (Mark Rosenfelder)
Subject: Re: Books I Hate to Love
Organization: SPSS Inc.
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 21:52:21 GMT

In article <1ad48eINNj0d@agate.berkeley.edu> cozzlab@garnet.berkeley.edu () writes:
>In article <BvEM73.Ln7@news.cso.uiuc.edu> levine@symcom.math.uiuc.edu (Lenore Levine) writes:
>"The recent thread on linguistic SF led me to think about books
>"I hate to love .....

For me this list would have to include most early Heinlein, which I find
entertaining but annoying (his later books are just annoying).

>"And the winner is:
>"
>"1) That Hideous Strength, by C.S. Lewis. (How could his Fairy 
>"   Hardcastle character have anticipated Camille Paglia so well? :-) )
>
>I never heard of Camille Paglia--but it's frightening to think Hardcastle
>has a real-world counterpart.
>
>Where Lewis _got_ Hardcastle was probably from taking the horrid old woman
>he lived with most of his life and exaggerating her a bit.

If you're referring to Mrs. Moore, I doubt it-- Lewis's friends all thought
she was horrid, but he didn't; he seemed to be fond of her-- in their early
years, really very fond indeed, if you believe A.N. Wilson's biography.  I 
suspect that the mother in _The Screwtape Letters_ is a portrait of Mrs. Moore.

For source material on Hardcastle, Lewis only had to look around at the
dictatorships of his day-- or perhaps back to the schoolmasters of his
youth.  But she really is a memorable character-- along with the tramp,
one of the most interesting in the book.
From: uprao@mcl.ucsb.edu (Parik Rao)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Robert Jordan's "THE SHADOW RISING" (SPOILERS)
Date: 6 Oct 92 23:03:34 GMT
Reply-To: uprao@mcl.ucsb.edu
Organization: U.C. Santa Barbara

In <BvpMvx.E9q@news.cso.uiuc.edu> rsm58307@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Ron) writes:

>SPOILERS BELOW!  Don't read any furthur unless you've read the book.
>

>As for Perrin, I sort of disliked that portion, except for the incident
>with Lord Luc (who is Rand's brother?!?, raised in the Blight and serving
>shadow - what future confrontation have we here?).

I think its actually Lan's cousin, remember in the 1st or 2nd one, Agelmar
talks about how Lan's fathers brother's wife got killed/captured by the
Trollocs/forsaken with her baby.  Also in the second one a Fade writes on
the dungeon (where Padan Fain was) and says something about Lan's cousin
still being alive (and converted by Ba'alzamon).

>Lanfear had her name mentioned. Was it mentioned before? What was the name of
>the wife of Lews Therin Telamon that the Dragon was looking for in the Prelude
>to the Eye of the World? (the first book)

Thats Ilyena, the "chit" Lanfear hates.  Lanfear is mentioned quite a bit
in the 1st and 2nd, she appears as Selene quite often in the 2nd trying
to tempt Rand.  

>I think Lanfear is either going to have a tragic ending or she will side
>with Rand against Leafblighter at the very end (or at least be neutral to
>the conflict). (that of course encompasses the possibilities)  Anyway,
>what I'm trying to say is its obvious she's important to Rand and possesses
>a great deal of power. After all she was the one who made the Bore into
>the Dark One's prison (and started this entire mess).

Yes, that was a startling (and great) revelation.  I didn't understand the
bit in the "aiel history" (at Rhuidean), was the ancient Aes Sedai town
(Par something) at Shayul Gul?  There is something about a great white
spear shattering and sending fire, blackness, etc everywhere.  What was
that?  What was the power that was supposed to be equally shared by men
and women?

I hope Lanfear doesn't side with rand, it would be more in character for her
to betray HIM to Shai'tan or abandon him (power 1st).  I wonder if women have
the same "black strands" that attach them to Shaitan, I guess so, for them
to live forever.  (Which brings up a question, why doesn't Asmodeus quickly
age and die...)

BTW, I'm looking forward to Rand going crazy.  He should be getting really
nuts by now, its been a year I think since he used up the Eye of the World.
The taint's gotta get to them eventually...

--
parik rao				        prao@cs.ucsb.edu or rao@cmc.com
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: mvp@hsv3.lsil.com (Mike Van Pelt)
Subject: Re: Co-Dominium Universe
Organization: LSI Logic/Headland Technology
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1992 20:13:05 GMT

In article <6722@transfer.stratus.com> dswartz@sw.stratus.com (Dan Swartzendruber) writes:
>I disagree.  Most of the Pournelle-bashing I've seen has criticized
>him for being a right-wing warmonger.  They might not use those exact
>words, but that seems to be the gist.

"Right-wing" is relative, I suppose, but based on conversations with
Pournelle and his RT on GEnie, I'd say he's far too libertarian to be
classed as a "right-winger".

"Warmonger" is another matter.  Some people think that it's a horribly
war-mongering statement to say "If, God forbid, you get into a war,
then you'd damn sure better win it."  I think this is a pretty good
summary of Pournelle's position.  I don't think this constitutes
"warmonger".  Some people do.
-- 
"Once is happenstance,                     Mike Van Pelt
 Twice is coincidence,                     LSI Logic/Headland 
 Three times is enemy action."             mvp@hsv3.lsil.com
         -- Auric Goldfinger               sun!indetech!hsv3!mvp
From: kuryakin@bcstec.ca.boeing.com (Rick Pavek)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: David Gerrold's Chtorr
Date: 26 Sep 92 00:17:45 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Boeing Computer Services, Seattle

Isn't it just about time for someone to ask the question:

    "Is Gerrold writing a fourth War Against the Chtorr novel?"
  or
    "What's the name of the fourth WAC novel?"

Actually, has anyone heard different than January 93?
(That's _A Season for Slaughter_ for those not in the know...)

BDalton has yet to list it in forthcoming book fiche's...

Rick

-- 
Rick Pavek                       | Never ask a droid to outdo its program.
                                 |           
Seattle, WA                      |   It wastes your time
                                 |          and annoys the droid.  
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: cass8806@elan.glassboro.edu (KYLE CASSIDY)
Subject: help with a sf story ...
Organization: Glassboro State College, Glassboro, NJ
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 20:40:46 GMT

long ago, i recall reading a sf story (in an anthology? or was it a 
magazine) -- it was about a kid, goes to college and he's very young. he's 
in college for engineering or physics and the older grad students play a 
joke on him and send him out for a "left handed monkey wrench" and he 
actually returns with one, saying that since he couldn't find one, he had to 
make it. the grad students are blown away. then they find out that he's 
created an entire nother universe in his dorm room....

thanks

kc
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: electro@access.digex.com (Gary Ehrlich)
Subject: Re: Barrayar
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1992 18:53:48 GMT


The two Cordelia books ("Shards" and "Barrayar") and "Falling Free"
are among my favorite novels.  "Falling Free" caught my attention
because it's main character was an engineer, and the story dealt with
structural engineering. Being a structural engineer myself, I have
been looking for stories on the subject, and to date "Falling Free"
has been one of the few I've been able to find.

As for "Shards" and "Barrayar", both Cordelia and Aral pulled the
right emotional strings for me, in terms of Cordelia's feeling
out of place (on Beta and on Barrayar) and both finding themselves
dragged along by events which at times seemed out of their control.

I haven't been as happy with the Miles books.  Although still to a 
large extent enjoyable reads, they haven't had the same impact,
or been as memorable.



-- 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
      ELECTRO  | Gary J. Ehrlich           | "Real filkers don't document;
     E         | Live from Columbia, MD    |  if it was hard to write it   
    ELECTRO    |                           |  should be hard to scan!"     
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: clc@kepler.unh.edu (Llamist Lliason)
Subject: Re: Cherryh
Organization: Holy Church of the Llama
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 23:02:46 GMT

In article <BvB364.1Gw@news.cso.uiuc.edu> jbeason@s.psych.uiuc.edu (Joseph E. Beason) writes:
>I really like books that make me look up words.  Words are so cool, 
>especially new ones.  My sister-in-law once complained that I used too many
>"big words" in a letter I sent her.  Never wrote her again...

I read James Joyce for that sort of thing.  Not only do I learn all these
neat words in English, but neat ones in Gaelic and in slang and words that
Joyce just made up as he went along.  

I actually used the word "flipperwhill," from _Finnegan's Wake_ in a 
descriptive English paper.  

				Christian
				Who loves being a major

-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 \ Christian Longshore Claiborn, Resident Soothsayer, NASA Special Division /
  \ Friend of the Great, Roommate of the Mediocre, Blood-brother to Cher   /
   \    clc@kepler.unh.edu, C_CLAIBORN@unhh.unh.edu, Christian@unh.edu    /
    \  Proud, charter member of the "Friends of Pame Smart" support club /
     \     Supporting Woody Allen in his time of great personal need    /
      \       And a proud, politically incorrect liberal Democrat.     /
       ----------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,rec.arts.books
From: bmiller@lunatix.uucp (Barry Miller)
Subject: Re: Science Fiction books with linguistic content
Organization: Lexington Public Access Unix. -KY- (606) 253-1481 
Date: Sat, 03 Oct 1992 16:45:39 GMT
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]

Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: dstein@deimos.math.ucla.edu (David Stein)
Subject: Re: Female writers Re: Science Fiction Age
Organization: UCLA Mathematics Department
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 92 06:27:40 GMT

In article <1992Oct6.024951.23300@latcs1.lat.oz.au> agapow@latcs1.lat.oz.au (Paul Michael Agapow) writes:
 
>(PS. David - the review of "Year's Best" done yet?)

  My review?  Yeah, it's essentially done except that a certain unnamed
  troly person borrowed the book and has not yet supplied the publication
  data I desperately need so the review is not again rejected like the
  last one was.

  I guess I can e-mail the current version to those interested.  I often
  get nicer at the last moment and delete a flame here or there; thus
  toast-lovers might enjoy the version that is.

 excuse my non-english, I'm in middle of LISP-coding.

 '(David)

p.s.  As a certified metamathematician, I proclaim that the statement
      "about half of the Hugo winners were women" is hell-of-a more
      informative _and_ accurate than the statement "the majority of 
      the Hugo winners were women".

      So why did you get so upset, Chuq?

--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I'm not a native speaker of English, so I'm not sure what I wrote.
Flames will be ignored unless you post them in perfect Czech.
================================ - David (the metamathician) - ===
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written