From: nelson_p@apollo.hp.com (Peter Nelson)
Subject: Re: Time to Get Rid of the Nation-State? (was:  Re: THE NEW BULLY OF THE BALKANS [ Part 4 from 4 ])
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 13:18:08 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Corporation, Chelmsford, MA

In article <1992Sep3.030515.12379@panix.com> gcf@panix.com (Gordon Fitch) writes:
>| In article <1992Sep2.170113.24965@panix.com> gcf@panix.com (Gordon Fitch) writes:
>| 
>| >As it appears that we are not ready for anarchy yet, and must
>| >have some form of government, how about utilizing the United
>| >Nations to take over some of the work? Surely Bosnia, Somalia,
>| >Afghanistan and Cambodia would be better off under a neutral 
>| >U.N. administration of military and police functions than they
>| >are subjected to competing warlords and religious fanatics.

>|   on them by the British.   Seeing the tribal chaos of Africa,
>|   or the 200 or so principalities, kingdoms, and so forth of
>|   the Indian subcontinent, or constant tribal warfare of
>|   Afghanistan, the British thought that surely these natives 
>|   would welcome with open arms the Queen's Regiments rather
>|   than to continue to be "subjected to competing warlords
>|   and religious fanatics".   
>
>I think it's equally patronizing to assume that the majority
>of the Bosnian people want to be subjected to civil war.

  Don't forget that most of the those shelling Sarajevo and evicting
  Muslims and Croats from their homes are also "the Bosnian people",
  i.e., Bosnian Serbs.   

>I was not thinking of the U.N. as either a cover for the
>United States, or any other imperial power.  Its only
>function would be to supply enough force to make warlording
>unprofitable.

  As I mentioned in an earlier posting every major military expert
  has warned that western military involvement in that conflict would
  take enormous forces who would have to remain there for a very long
  time if not indefinitely.  Witness the British experience in Afghanistan:
  they would ride in, defeat some warlords, blow up some forts and arms
  caches and install some new government in Kabul, often at great losses
  to themselves, and before they managed to get back out the Kyber Pass
  the Afghans would be at it again (as they still are today!). 

  Those who do not learn from history are doomed to post to Usenet.
       


>I don't know whether it would work or not, but now that certain
>countries in Western Europe have given every encouragement to
>bring the dissolution of Yugoslavia about


  What, by recognizing Croatia and Slovenia?   The Croations and
  Slovenians *wanted* independence.   They weren't bothering anybody,
  why shouldn't they have been recognized? 


> with the predictable resultant chaos, perhaps they could bestir
> themselves and their bank accounts to do something to remedy the
> situation.

  Again, what:  What forces, of what types, for how long, and with what
  mission?  I haven't heard any proponent of military action by the west
  to "remedy the situation" ever answer these questions in specifics.


>What I'm really getting at is that the "nation", as a
>concept, is evidently worthless at protecting people's
>rights and safety.  We should be trying to find alterna-
>tives to it.

  I think it depends on the nation.  The Swiss nation has certainly
  done a commendable job protecting theirs.   The US hasn't done
  too shabby a job either -- I'm certainly grateful I live here rather
  than most other countries in the world.   There are actually plenty
  of nations whose citizens live in relative safety and freedom as
  a result of things like constitutions, courts, police, and armies.

  What cannot be done is create a successful nation state by drawing
  a line on a map around some geographical area without accounting for
  whether the inhabitants have enough goals, world-views, values or
  sense of "us-ness" in common to form a nation.   This is that same 
  reason why world government cannot work. 


---peter



Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,eunet.politics,talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.theory,soc.culture.bulgaria,soc.culture.turkish