From: robd@cray.com (Robert Derrick)
Subject: Re: Lying to oneself and erroneous assumptions...
Date: 10 Apr 92 11:50:17 CDT

First of Stephen, good show!  A very well written response.

  [Stephen, commenting on my anti-lie assertions]

: robd@cray.com (Robert Derrick) writes...
: >Stephen writes:
: *DAMN*, you're old ! :-)

Only in body.  In mind, I have far to go.

: So, you *admit* the possibility, right ?

To deny the possibility, I would have to lie to myself.  Can't
do it.  I could say it, mind you.  But I would doubt it and so
I wouldn't really believe it.

: >But every doggone time I take an honest look at myself, 
: 
: .. and *herein* lies the crux of my assertion.  Not *everybody* takes 
: periodic honest looks at themselves. Since, for a time in my life, *I* 
: succeeded in believing an artificially created `image' of me, *really* 
: believing it, then the *fact* is that it can be done.  I am *not* just 
: projecting the behavior on somebody else because I disapproved of them, I'm 
: speaking from experience, and *that* experience lets me spot similar 
: behavior in others, 'kay ?

Very good.  But, if it's not too personal, exactly what form did this
self-deception take?  I don't doubt that you tried, so I wonder how
you would describe how well you succeeded.  That's what I would like
to hear.

Even the one pathological liar that I met always knew that he was lying,
but he justified his behavior by claiming that he would do it to "them"
because they would do it to him.  Whenever you feel the need to prop up
a lie with a Rationalized Justification, then I don't think you really
have faith in your lie.  Of course, then you have a RJ, which is a 
fancier lie.  But it will probably have to be propped up too.

: Or, more to the point, why would I *care* ?  If your lies to yourself don't 
: effect me or my circle of friends, I wouldn't be motivated to see or debunk 
: them. 

Well, a general consensus here is that I am lying to myself by stating that
I don't believe that it is so easy or probable for people to really lie
to themselves, which doesn't affect anyone here, but you and they sure
seem to care, at least enough to comment strongly.  A paradox, no?

I mean, you are trying to debunk what you perceive to be my self-deception.

: Some of the people I *assumed* were lying to themselves (later verified by 
: their own admission) ...

Yes, the "I've been lying to myself" is a cliche in our society.  But is
it really true.  I would still like to hear you or someone give a real
example.  All I hear are third-person some people stories.  I can't ask
them questions that will elucidate answers.  I ask you.  When did you
really lie to yourself.  Describe how you really believed it.  I think
you will most likely find chinks in the wall of your believe that you
knew were there all the time.

:               These people in *NO WAY* disgusted me, but rather the 
: opposite.  I helped them to see their own worth, thus making them less of a 
: target to the `moochers and looters' (thanks for that phrase, Colin.) who 
: would prey on them.  *Those* "M & L's" *do* have my disgust, but they got 
: it the old fashioned way ... they eaRRRRRrrrrrned it ! :-)

Yeah, the "disgust" crap I wrote bothered me when I wrote it, but I was
in a hurry, so I left it in.  See, I tried to lie to myself that it was
an acceptable example, but I really knew it wasn't.  I'm glad you noticed.

: -- Stephen 

Thanks again

rob derrick
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