HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: hayim@locus.com (Hayim Hendeles)
Subject: Re: Nazi camps
Organization: Locus Computing Corporation, Los Angeles, California
Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1992 17:45:11 GMT

In article <87711@netnews.upenn.edu> kkniaz@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Krzysztof W. Kniaz) writes:
>In article <1992Sep2.130130.7212@cbnewsl.cb.att.com> saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (samuel.saal) writes:
>>
>>Our Polish net.friends would have us believe that antiSemitism was
>>government sponsored when Polish territory was controlled by Germany,
>>Austria, or Russia.  When it was controlled by a Polish government they
>>would have us believe antiSemitism was caused by rogue elements or
>>opposition political parties.
>>
>>How convenient.
>>
>>Revisionism or denial of responsibility?
>>-- 
>>Sam Saal      kingfish!saal OR saal@kingfish.att.com
>>	Vayiftach HaShem et Peah Ha`Aton
>
>If you don't see the difference between Polish and Russian (Tzarist) goverments
>towards Jews, you should perhaps take a good history course. 
>IMHO, Sam you are not different from some of my compatriots on the net (whom
>I am ashamed of). All of you distort the history, just a little bit, to satisfy
>your own wicked ego. YOu're unable to raise above your narrow point of view,
>moreover individuals like you, would always throw insults on peple seeking some
>common ground. You always have to have everyone labeled according to your
>beliefs and (mis)understanding. Finally, and this is typical, you are
>always eager to disregard facts not fitting to your perfect, false picture.
>--
>
>Krzysztof Kniaz, University of Pennsylvania | If you can't learn  


Perhaps with a microscope, and years of research one might find
some differences between the Polish and Russian governments. But
from a practical perspective, they both hated Jews. Poland was violently
Anti-Semetic, Russia has always had a history of progroms against the
Jews. Sure, maybe one hated us a drop less than the other, but I
wouldn't brag about it.

BTW, it is worthwhile to note, that contrary to public opinion,
government is not a mindless entity that cannot be blamed, but does
in fact consist of people.

I have no idea what sort of history classes you would recommend, but
I do know there are history classes teaching their students the
Holocaust never occurred. It all depends on who is teaching the
course, and what they want to say.

Hayim Hendeles
From: simon1@bass.bu.edu (Simon Streltsov)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: What is Tanya
Date: 27 Aug 92 17:13:18 GMT
Reply-To: simon1@bass.bu.edu (Simon Streltsov)
Followup-To: soc.culture.jewish
Organization: Boston University

In article <1e76PB1w164w@cybernet.cse.fau.edu> murray.bbs@cybernet.cse.fau.edu writes:

>YK>Could you explain what Tanya is about?
in the FIRST line:

>Tanya is "the bible" of ChaBaD Chasidic philosophy. 

Sounds not very good for me....

Simon
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: jgoldber@todah.chem.utoronto.ca (Joel Goldberg)
Subject: Re: A few questions
Organization: University of Toronto Chemistry Department
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 13:54:35 GMT

In article <1992Aug29.181438.19951@usenet.ins.cwru.edu> ai726@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alice Schubach) writes:
>The holidays that we are now preparing for are Rosh Hashona and Yom Kippur,
>the celebration of the Jewish New Year. Major components of this are 
>making your peace with G-d and man, repenting for your sins of the previous
>year and getting a fresh start. The observation is not at all like the
>secular new year, where people party and celebrate. Rather, we spend
>several days in the synagogue and pray for forgiveness for both ourselves
>and the entire community. On Yom Kippur (9 days after Rosh Hashona) we 
>fast from sundown to sundown.
   Of course, that's not a complete picture. Yom Kippur is one of the
   two happiest days of the (Jewish) year. Moreover, it is when maidens
   go out to the vinyards, to dance in borrowed white dresses
   and invite the unmarried men to choose bride.
From: rothberg@bimacs.BITNET (Danny Rothenberg)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Jewish Popes? (was Vatican, Israel and Hidden Children)
Date: 25 Aug 92 13:08:07 GMT
Organization: Math department, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, ISRAEL

In article <1992Aug24.170140.16738@cbnewsl.cb.att.com> sethr@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (seth.r.rosenthal) writes:
>In article <1992Aug24.162749.10837@cbnewsk.cb.att.com>, alu@cbnewsk.cb.att.com (Alan Lustiger) writes:
>> In article <gc0TPB2w165w@valpso.hanse.de> tichauer@valpso.hanse.de (Manfredo Tichauer) writes:
>> >w2dz@watson.ibm.com (Daniel Zalik) writes:
>> >
>> >> Catholicism. In fact, I believe that the Archbishop of Paris was a
>> >> "hidden child."
>> >>
>> > You are right. Cardinal Lustiger, archbishop of Paris, was born from very
>> >religious jewish (polish?) parents.
>>
>> Actually, I'm pretty sure that his conversion happened before WWII.
>> And he has been a Cardinal for some years now.
>>
>> (To answer the inevitable, yes, it seems likely that he is
>> a distant relative of mine. I'm rooting for him to be the
>> next Pope!)
>>
>
>Have their been previous popes who were born Jewish?
>Have their been popes who were from well-known Jewish families
>perhaps apostated a few generations before?

There is the story of a Jewish boy who always played chess with his
father.  One day the boy disappeared, apparently into the clutches of
the Church.  (I think that a servant wanted to 'rescue' the boy's soul-but
I am not sure about that.)

Years later there were problems between the Church and the Jews and
the old man (the father), being a leader of the community was delegated
to intervene with the authorities.  He managed to arrange a meeting
with the Pope (he obviously had connections (-: ) an during the
conversation the two played chess.  The old man was about to win when
he was outmanoeuvred by the Pope in a move which only he knew and he
had taught to his son.

Thus father and son were once more united.

(I do not know if there is a continuation.)


> (In this one, can anyone confirm or deny the story
> I have heard that the Medici's were an old Jewish family
> that for one reason or other had converted before old Lorenzo?
> Include sources if you have any.)
>
>
>       Seth Rosenthal

-Danny Rothenberg

Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: warren@nysernet.org (Warren Burstein)
Subject: Re: more of ...can of worms....
Reply-To: warren@nysernet.org
Organization: Mail to News Gateway at Wang Labs
Date: 28 Aug 92 04:46:13 GMT

dk = dkantor@uspi2.Prime.COM (Dave Kantor)
ds = strnlght@netcom.com (David Sternlight)

ds: Herman Rubin has, of course, every right to his free speech and to
ds: continue to say what he likes, but here is one fellow-Ph.D. who
ds: sees no need to pay any further attention to what he says on this issue.

dk: Well, here is one Master of Science who WILL pay further attention to all
dk: viewpoints on this issue.  

Is an interpretation legitimate (TM) if the interpreter has less
education than this?
-- 
/|/-\/-\       The entire universe		Jerusalem
 |__/__/_/     is a very cold theft.
 |warren@      But the okra
/ nysernet.org is not hungry at all.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: MASH@WEIZMANN.WEIZMANN.AC.IL (Michael Shimshoni)
Subject: Brit-Brita (was Bris)
Organization: Mail to News Gateway at Wang Labs
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 92 17:51:07 +0300

 In: <4005@moscom.UUCP>
 de@moscom.UUCP (David Esan) wrote:

>In article <VyDRPB8w164w@cybernet.cse.fau.edu> murray.bbs@cybernet.cse.fau.edu
>>From: yy@corner.wpb.fl.us
>>To: burks@seena.eecs.umich.edu (Timothy Burks)
>>
>>SO>the ritual?  Doing something symbolic for baby girls?  Or
>>SO>is there already a strong Jewish tradition that honors
>>SO>female Jews... in kind of a "different but equal" way?
>
>I meant to reply to the original article, but got waylaid by work and trying
>to wade through the Yugoslavia, and OCR flame wars.
>
>While in the Orthodox community there is no official function on the birth of
>a girl many people have some sort of welcoming party.
>
>Now the actual circumcision is necessary, but the party afterwards is really
>optional.  Since we had had a nice party for each of our boys britot we felt
>that if we should ever have a girl we should give her a party as well.
>
>When, lo and behold, child number 4 was a girl, we scheduled a welcome party.
>
>I went to shule and named her at the proper time (and resisted the suggestions
>of my boys to name her swamp-monster).
>
>The advantages to a welcome party over a bris party are many.  You can schedul
>for when you like, say Sunday afternoon, as opposed to the 8th day after birth
>By not being tied to a specific day, you can schedule for a time when the baby
>and the parents are doing better (Mom has recovered from birth, Dad from tryin
>to be Mom and Dad).

In Israel were  "bris" is called "brit", among the  not so Orthodox we
have a custom  not unlike the one  mentioned by David.  When  a son is
born we have the full thing called Brit, and when a girl is born, many
throw a party which is called "Brita".

BTW  it was  said that  Israeli  government's fiscal  policies (and  I
imagine those of other governments as  well) are like a brit (the male
version): the small ones cry while the big ones stuff their faces.

> -->     David Esan      de@moscom.com

          Michael Shimshoni
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: feld@ccu.umanitoba.ca (Michael Feld)
Subject: Murder at Montreal's Concordia U
Organization: University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1992 21:08:10 GMT

Two professors are dead, a secretary and two other professors are
badly wounded, at the Engineering Faculty of Montreal's English
language Concordia University.

Canada's major newspapers report that the police have arrested a
disgruntled engineering professor, who had earlier protested that he
had been victimized by his colleaguse, who, he said, had plagiarized
his work and denied him tenure.

On the front page, _The Globe and Mail_, Canada's self-confessed
"national" newspaper, announces that the arrested man is one  V.
Fabrikant, whom they name a Russian Jew.
-- 
Michael Feld                         | E-mail:  <feld@ccu.umanitoba.ca>
Dept. of Philosophy                  | FAX:     (204) 261-0021
University of Manitoba               | Voice:   (204) 474-9136
Winnipeg, MB, R3T 2M8, Canada	                     
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: aryk@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (A.J.S. Nusbacher)
Subject: Re: Torah In A Torah Context (was Re: more of ...can of worms....)
Organization: University of Toronto -- Hart House
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 21:22:44 GMT

In article <1992Sep02.172718.688959@locus.com> hayim@locus.com (Hayim Hendeles) writes:

>IMHO, you have missed the point entirely here. You are assuming the
>Torah is a History/Science book, and as such feel it essential
>to pinpoint these locations. However, no believer has ever claimed
>the Torah to be a History book. 

Some believers have indeed claimed just that.

A valid response is that the Torah is not very good at being a history
book.

Aryk Nusbacher
From: snggab01@uctvax.uct.ac.za
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Vatican, Israel and Hidden Children
Date: 26 Aug 92 08:56:10 +0200
Organization: University of Cape Town

In article <4123@bimacs.BITNET>, rothberg@bimacs.BITNET (Danny Rothenberg) writes:
>>
>>I am also interested in the circumstances surrounding the protection offered
>>Jewish children during the Nazi reign, especially by Catholics. I have been
>>recently made aware that many Jewish children were taken in by Catholics, and
>>subsequently saved from annihilation by the Nazis and their collaborators.
>>Moreover, many (maybe most) of these children subsequently embraced
>>Catholicism. In fact, I believe that the Archbishop of Paris was a
>>"hidden child."
>>
>>Any theological, social, or political comments on these issues would be greatly
>>appreciated.
>>
>>
>>
>>Daniel Zalik
>>
>>The opinions expressed above are my own and do not reflect those of
>>my employer.
> 
> 
> -Danny Rothenberg
While it is understandable ,NOT condonable for those children who were rescued
during world war 2 to have converted,one must bear in mind how many hundreds of
thousands of Jews have been genocidally wiped out throughout the ages by the
Catholic Church because they refused to worship a corpse and dared to maintain
high standards of health during the middle ages (The black plague).The Vatican
has yet to issue an apology (which would hardly make up for all the dead) for
the inquisition,for the crusades or for arranging safe passage for Nazi war
criminals such as Klaus Barbie and Ante Pavelic after world war 2.
From: MASH@WEIZMANN.WEIZMANN.AC.IL (Michael Shimshoni)
Subject: Targeting Jews
Organization: Mail to News Gateway at Wang Labs
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 92 12:25:37 +0300

In: <170daeINN5rt@agate.berkeley.edu>
schultz@garnet.berkeley.edu (Richard Schultz) claimed:

>In article <57357@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rub
>>But even within halakhah there are restrictions on
>>forcing others; Hillel summarized Judaism as
>>
>>   What is hateful unto thee, do not unto thy neighbor.
>
>Interesting that Mr. Rubin should bring this up, as it's part of a long
>aggadatah in which Hillel demonstrates (among other things) that one has to
>accept the Oral Law as well as the Written Law.

That is  odd.  The "long  aggadatah" is not so  long, and the  part of
Hillel  in it  is also  rather  short.  Hillel  advised the  potential
convert who wanted  to learn "all of the Torah"  while standing on one
leg: "What is hateful to you do  not do to your neighbour, that is the
Torah, all  the rest is commentary,  go and study".  So  where is here
the "God  given Oral Law"? Anyhow  where is the Oral  Law mentioned at
all? Hillel  says all the  rest is a  commentary which can  be deduced
from this one maxim (he was careful not to say how :-) ).  So that all
the later additions  claimed to be Sinaic, remain, at  least as far as
that citation  is concerned,  just a claims,  in strict  opposition to
Hillel's rule.

Actually the demand to deduce all  the rest by studying this one rule,
tends  to  support  Herman's  view  that every  Jew  has  to  try  and
understand what God wanted him to do, and not be governed by the rules
previous generations have laid down.

>                        Richard Schultz

                         Michael Shimshoni
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (samuel.saal)
Subject: Re: dreidle in yiddish (was Ness Gadol Hayah....)
Organization: liver ---> spleen
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 14:19:40 GMT

In article <4149@bimacs.BITNET> ehrlich@bimacs.BITNET (Gideon Ehrlich) writes:

>N G H S : which stand for the German words: N icht (Nothing)
>                                            G anz  (whole)
>                                            H albe (half )
>                                            S ???  (???)

S --> Shtel (or shtup) "put" (or "stuff")
-- 
Sam Saal      kingfish!saal OR saal@kingfish.att.com
		Note new machine name
	Vayiftach HaShem et Peah Ha`Aton
From: simon1@bass.bu.edu (Simon Streltsov)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Nazi Camps
Date: 4 Sep 92 14:11:18 GMT
Reply-To: simon1@bass.bu.edu (Simon Streltsov)
Followup-To: soc.culture.jewish
Organization: Boston University

In article <1992Sep4.123652.226@cbnewsl.cb.att.com> sethr@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (seth.r.rosenthal) writes:
>> 
>> [Concerning Hitler and Stalin]

>> > Stalin probably resulted in many Jewish deaths, but I doubt that
>> > as many, and not because they were Jews.
.....
>
>I agree, except I thought the discussion was on whether Stalin
>was worse for the Jewish people.  The really bad things Stalin
>actually did were more like closing the synagogues, sending
>rabbis off to Siberia, taking the Torah scrolls and putting into
>storage somewhere in Moscow, appointing government rabbis, etc.
>You're right he never got around to the really disasterous
>things that were contemplated (Birodjiban sp?).
>
>The heavy Jewish casualties were not because they were Jewish,
>and in many cases were due to the White-Red fighting after
>the revolution.

Sorry for a long citation, it seems so ridiculous and ,unfortunately,
so popular.


As far as comparing of who is worse is unnessary, as Robert Israel (?)
rightly pointed out, I'll just rephrase what Seth says himself :

a/ all jewish institutions were systematically ( and almost completely)
destroyed, under all variations of regime.

b/ millions of people - still no numbers are available - were murdered,
Jews among them.

c/ for remainers there was a choice of assimilation or emigration in the
later years : remember, we say, that Spain or France cruelly expelled
Jews, while Russia at last allowed them to emigrate and we - and world 
community - applauds to it.

If expulsion seems so good, kal vahomer, how was life.

More info available upon request.

So to say, that "jews were murdered only with others" seems
ridiculous.
In my extended family, for example, more people died from
Russians, then from Germans, and include people who
got into prison for a year, being healthy, and died 2 years
later.

Some anecdotical evidence:
(from some memoirs, written light-heartedly by some Jew, I dont
recall his name, sorry):
When he got into prison in Leningrad in the 30-s, there was a raabi there,
who said, he was trying to prove to the investigator, that 
"Torah is not anti-Soviet, Stalin is not mentioned,
there is nothing in the Torah about "prodrazverstka", etc.

But investigator didnt beleive him (and in my opinion - rightly so).




Simon Streltsov			    	! Disclaimer :
PhD Student,				! I can not speak for the
Dept. of Manufacturing Engineering	! Engineering Dept, ONLY because
Boston University			! I claim to be a mathematician..
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: aplebaum@shum.huji.ac.il (Hillel Applebaum)
Subject: Re: Israeli Taxis
Organization: Hebrew University of Jerusalem, Israel
Date: 30 Aug 92 12:53:52 GMT

In article <1992Aug24.125743.11235@relay.nswc.navy.mil>, snorthc@nswc.navy.mil (Stephen Northcutt) writes:
|> 
|> Upfront disclaimer: I am only asking a simple question, please don't
|> let this start a flame war.  I just want to verify something I heard.
|> I am not preaching for or against anything in this post!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
|> 
|> Recently I attended a series of lectures on "end times" as taught/
|> believed by christian literalists.  The speaker said that the
|> taxicabs in Israel have signs that say something to the effect of:
|> The Messiah is coming.
|> 
|> If there is someone reading this list from Israel, would you be kind
|> enough to comment on this in a quantitative manner:
|>   I have never seen a taxi with a sign like that;   (************** HA *************)
|>   In 10 years I have seen one taxi with such a message;
|>   1/2 the taxis have such a message;
|>   All the taxis have such a sign, it is a requirement of the gov't.


-- 

-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*--*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
/// Hillel P. Applebaum	     |>>    ISRAEL - where all
/// Jerusalem,   Israel      |      jews should live ! 

____  ____  _  ___     _  _  _     ____  ___  _   ____
   |     |   |    |    |  |   |       |     |  |   |  |
|  |     |   | ___|_  __`/    |    |  |     |  |  _|  |
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*--*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
     
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman)
Subject: Friday's Israel Line
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio, (USA)
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 92 16:50:36 GMT


Can anyone e-mail me friday's Israel Line?  I somehow missed it.
-- 
"No one suspects the Spanish Inquisition!"         - Monty Python

"We are in a religious war!"                   - Patrick Buchanan
From: hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Torah In A Torah Context (was Re: more of ...can of worms....)
Date: 31 Aug 92 17:45:19 GMT
Organization: Purdue University Statistics Department

In article <f#hn7r-.strnlght@netcom.com> strnlght@netcom.com (David Sternlight) writes:

>Herman Rubin should know better than posting such nonsense as that the
>area around the headwaters of the Tigris and Euphrates has been
>"thoroughly explored" and instead consult a map.

>Even in "thoroughly explored" Israel people are still discovering
>biblical source material to this day. In "thoroughly explored" London,
>it seems that every so often when someone starts a new building site
>they find archaelogical treasure. Yet the area of the Tigris and
>Euphrates hasn't even been scratched, in comparison.

>Unless Rubin has been over every square mile of the subject area, or
>has spoken to colleagues who have, this is just one more case of his
>making it up as he goes along. It's time he receded from this
>discussion and returned to a subject one assumes he knows something
>about: Statistics.

I have consulted many maps.

Considering how many people live in, and have explored and written about,
the part of present-day Turkey around the headwaters of the Tigris and
Euphrates, one can conclude that the existence of two other major rivers
arising near there, and encompassing large areas, is not the case.  This
even allows for the region translated as "Ethiopia" being anywhere else.
-- 
Herman Rubin, Dept. of Statistics, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette IN47907-1399
Phone: (317)494-6054
hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Internet, bitnet)  
{purdue,pur-ee}!pop.stat!hrubin(UUCP)
From: amir@leopard.gatech.edu (amir)
Subject: Re: On Qadish
Organization: College of Computing
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 22:49:55 GMT

The Sepharadim have a consistent rule for the mourners' Kadish:
	After Tehilim the mourners recite "Kadish Yehe Shelama" 
	After Midrash the mourners recite "Kadish Al Israel"

The first one is called by Asjkenazim "Kadish Yatom" and the second is
called by Ashkenazim "Kadish deRabanan". This is also why after divrei
Torah it is customary to say the Midrash of Rabbi Hanania ben Akashia,
followed by Kadish Al Israel.

Kadish is NOT said after Aleinu or after Igdal or Adon Olam, because
it does not follow those rules.

What the Ashkenazi rules are is a mystery to me...

-- Ami


					
					-Amihood Amir (amir@cc.gatech.edu)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish