From: ryyti@jyu.fi (Jarmo Ryyti)
Subject: Re: Koenigsberg/Kaliningrad
Organization: University of Jyvaskyla, Finland
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1992 07:41:35 GMT

In article <188adqINN159@rodan.UU.NET> avg@rodan.UU.NET (Vadim Antonov) writes:
>In article <1992Sep4.081930.26242@nntp.hut.fi> f33012l@puukko.hut.fi (Janne Kivel{) writes:
>>>Well, historical claims are double-edged things.
>>>Shouldn't we consider returning Finland to Russia instead?
>>
>>That's exactly what a Russian politician called Zhirinovsky used to be
>>after.
>
>Don't mix me with that shit. If you didn't get it, it was an
>illustration of the very same approach the respectful Jarmo was
>suggesting.

You have not red my writing correct, because I am not demanding
at all Karelia , former Finnish Karelia or any Karelia
back for Finland. Do not put on my shoulders such demands.
I was explaining that there is an organization in Finland, Karelia
Association which represents karelian refugees and among them
there is raised this topic on the agenda whether to demand
Karelia back or not.
I am not a heir of any karelian refugee or a member in this organization
and I  am not thinking that former Finnish Karelia had to be
demanded back. For me it is quite the same thing to whom it belongs
and the russians can keep it as a present from Finland very well.
They need it may be more.


>
>>>Seriously, Finland's government is better than its citizens in
>>>understanding that territorial claims in the modern world will
>>>practically inevitably lead to bloodshed. Don't you consider
>>>the experience of Yugoslavia, Abkhazia, Karabakh, South Ossetia,
>>>Gaza Strip, Penjab et al sufficient enough to never make the
>>>same mistake again? 
>>
>>Who are you to tell what Finnish citizens think of returning Karelia 
>>to us?
>
>At least one of the Finland citizens proposed exactly that.
One citizen in Finland who has taken this topic into the discussion
is Rauno Merio, the president of Karjalan Liitto, Karelia Society.
He is born in Karelia like the members of the Society are as well.
>you're welcome to show your own, well, imperfection.

>
>And what? Now we should feel guilty simply because we're the big nation?
>As for "degenerated despots" and "blood-thirsty tyrants" -- you're
>obviously ignorant in the history of Russian royal families. Their
>grim deeds were quite mild comparing with that of "civilized" European
>nations. Get a picture of the last tzar and try to write your words
>underneath.

I think Moscow will be more busy to help their countrymen in Central
Asia and Caucasus than in the Baltic states. The decolonialization
process will be hard everywhere but I think the Baltic people
are not very much interested in fighting because they know
that it does not lead into anything.
>
>Yeah? Really? I bet the modern Russian media is much more accurate
>and unbiased than Western. I've got a plenty of chances to compare.
>It's really hard to fool people who perfected the art of reading
>between lines under decades of lies.
>
I think one reason why Moscow turns the focus to the Balts is that
"the russian men on the street" could figure out ones "to blame"
- it is an old trick. Moscow administration have actually did
 nothing to help those
russian refugees who had to leave Central Asia and live now
in the street of Moscow.

>>>You'd better think of the future of a small country which has
>>>no natural resources or high-technology and is going to aggravate
>>>the neighbor country (which basically is their only reliable
>>>market and source of supplies) by their mindless ethnic policy.

The small countries have much higher standard of living than
bigger countries in Europe. Your thinking is old fashioned.

>
>>And Russia is the one that should take care of its own citizens abroad,
>>since it's recognized as the heir of Soviet Union.
>>
>>If Finns were as dumb as you suggest, today's Finland would probably
 be a newly
>>independent ex-Soviet republic.
>
>I didn't mean offence to all Finns -- i simply applied the argument of
>respectful Jarmo to himself to outline the stupidity of "YFEG considered
>dumb/mischevious/whatever". There's an idiom in Russian which sounds
>in English rendition as "yourself's fool". Used as a reply to personal
>of ethnic insult.
>
>--vadim

Thanks Vadim,
Jarmo Ryyti

Ps. I think the "dzuhnas" are very wise people.