HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: tb13@ellis.uchicago.edu (leon joel gross)
Subject: Re: Man rapes Man
Reply-To: tb13@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 21:37:39 GMT

In article <mcgeegt.921215210742@eng.auburn.edu> mcgeegt@eng.auburn.edu (Gary T. McGee) writes:
>I was thinking the other day about the various twists and turns concerning rape
>and the prosecution of rapists. I have a question that has probably been 
>addressed before, but I wasn't around.
>
>Does anyone know of a case where a man raped another man?
>
>If so, please let me know the circumstances and how the case turned out.
>
>Thanks
>
>Gary

It happens in jail frequently.
Jeffrey Dahmer raped his victims.
There was a case in the news of a student at MSU who raped 3 or 4 of
his fraternity brothers.
Some governments and armies torture prisoners in ways which our
laws would consider sexual assault.

Leon Gross
I'm not an actor but  I play one on TV.
 
Newsgroups: talk.rape
From: skolos@shnext24.ucslabs.sfu.ca (Chet Skolos)
Subject: Canadian Rape Laws Suck
Organization: Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 21:17:15 GMT

I think that the laws here suck.
Any Questions?


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Newsgroups: talk.rape
From: holzman@d0gslb.fnal.gov (Daniel B. Holzman)
Subject: Re: Rape Law Reform
Organization: Fermi National Accelerator Lab
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 02:44:15 GMT
Distribution: usa
X-Posted-From: d0gslb.fnal.gov
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In article <1992Dec16.154254.812@news.columbia.edu>, 
dan@cubmol.bio.columbia.edu (Daniel Zabetakis) writes:
>>>    Hate to break it to you, but:
>>> 
>>> 1) Failing to pay a prostitute does not make it rape.
>>> 2) Failing to pay is not a crime or a tort.
>>> 3) Failing to pay in fact makes the transaction legal.
>>
>>Hate to break it to you but:
>>
>>1) The lack of consent makes it rape.
> 
>    So? Unless you want to start up the usual "Can prostitutes consent"
> thread, what is the point?

The point is that the prostitute didn't agree to sex-for-free.

>>2) The agreement to pay is what makes it illegal.  Those undercover cops don't
>>have to wait until after the deed is done to do the bust.
>>
>     I never said they did. But they almost certainly need the act to start.
> It is difficult to establish intent beyond a reasonable doubt without 
> something actually happening. The defense of "I wasn't going to go through 
> with it." is very strong.

Wrong again.  The elements of the conviction are the prostitute naming the act
and the price.  The act doesn't even have to start.  The money doesn't even
have to be paid.
-- 
Daniel B. Holzman                    | Eight Words the Witch's Rede Fufill:
HOLZMAN@FNAL.BITNET                  | An It Harm None, Do What You Will
HOLZMAN@FNALC.FNAL.GOV.INTERNET      |
                                     | All Acts of Love and Pleasure are
Love doesn't subtract,               | Her Rituals
   it multiplies    - Heinlein       |
                                     | Speak the Word.
Disclaimer:  Fermilab's far too large to have an opinion, let alone mine.
Newsgroups: talk.rape
From: dan@cubmol.bio.columbia.edu (Daniel Zabetakis)
Subject: Re: Rape Law Reform
Organization: Columbia University, Dept. of Biological Sciences.
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 15:54:11 GMT

In article <1ghsg0INNf8o@coli-gate.coli.uni-sb.de> simon@fsinfo.cs.uni-sb.de (Julia Simon) writes:
>dan@cubmol.bio.columbia.edu (Daniel Zabetakis) writes:
>>    Even as an ideal, I'm not sure this is such a good idea. You don't want
>> to comprimise the defense. The defendant may claim that the sex was consentual.
>> If there is any doubt about this, then the sexual history of the accuser is
>> very relevant. It is certainly unfourtunate for a rape victim, but I don't
>> see any way to fairly avoid the situation.
>
>OH MY GOD - that's just not fair!!! I mean, if someone steals my purse or
>something, then it's illegal even if I'm known to happily spend all my money
>for everybody I meet!
>
    Since noone sane ever gives away all thier money, it wouldn't be much of
a defense, would it?

>But if I'm raped and somebody finds out I've had 3 boyfriends during the last
>3 years I'm guilty. ARRGH
>
    But what if it was your last boyfriend who you were charging with rape?
What if you had DNA tests to _prove_ he had had sex with you. His defense will
be that he was your boyfriend. He could offer evidence that you did in fact
have boyfriends.
   BTW, you are not on trial. 

>> I can't say that a person agreed to let me hit them with a baseball bat. That
>> wouldn't be any defense at all. 
>
>What if this person is a masochist?
>
    Then you would have to show evidence that the accuser was insane. But you
should get my point if you don't try to make trivial arguments.

>And what if somebody signs me a paper with the following contents: "As I don't
>want to live anymore but am not brave enough to commit suicide I herewith hire
>this person for killing me", and I kill him/her - am I guilty of murder?
>
   I doubt a court would take such a document into consideration. 

-- 
This article is for entertainment purposes only. Any facts, opinions,
narratives or ideas contained herein are not necessarily true, and do
not necessarily represent the views of any particular person.  

Newsgroups: talk.rape
From: ash@sumex-aim.stanford.edu (David Ash)
Subject: Re: Contracts (was Re: Rape Law Reform) 
Originator: dash@Xenon.Stanford.EDU
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University.
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 01:12:41 GMT

In article <1992Dec18.215509.15459@sequent.com> huggett@sequent.com (Terri Huggett) writes:

>paint his house if he chooses not to pay you.  Thus, in contract law, and this
>is how the legal system has interpreted the case in many states, the prostitute
>agrees to sex for money.  She DOES NOT agree to sex.  Therefore, if the
>john does not pay her, he has raped her because she DID NOT consent to sex.
>He has technically defrauded her as well, but that is a legally
>unenforceable part of the contract.  It is very rare for a prostitute to
>bring such a charge and for a prosecutor to take such a case, and it almost
>always involves serious injury.

Wow!!!  By this legal reasoning, suppose a guy tells a woman that he wants to
postpone sex until after marriage.  He and the gal enter into a marriage
contract specifying (among other things) that she will love, honor and keep
him forsaking all others until death do they part.  She doesn't keep her end
of the contract.  Since this contract was part of his condition to have sex,
she has raped him by the above reasoning.  Or am I missing something?  The
situation seems completely parallel to me;  furthermore I could imagine there
could be a few guys (devout Christians) who would want to press charges in
this situation.

Of course *this* contract would be unenforceable.  Tell me, is there something
a little sick about a society which holds people to an oral (pun intended) 
contract made on a dingy street corner late at night, but winks at breaking
a solemn contract made in a church before hundreds of witnesses?  (Note that
I'm not a great supporter of the institution of marriage--often outdated, in my
view--but I *am* a supporter of keeping one's word, and if a person isn't
prepared to take marriage vows seriously, no one's forcing him or her to make
them in the first place.)
-- 
David W. Ash               | "What profits a man if he keeps his eternal soul
ash@sumex-aim.stanford.edu |  when he could have lived life to the full and
HOME: (415) 497-1629       |  been forgiven at the end of it all anyway?"
WORK: (415) 725-3859       |         --David Merritt, a.k.a. THE RED SHARK
From: prockwel@zeus.calpoly.edu (Patrick D Rockwell)
Newsgroups: talk.rape
Subject: Re: Female Rapists
Date: 14 Dec 92 19:35:08 GMT
Organization: California Polytechnic State University, San Luis Obispo

In article <Byy3Ew.Jun@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> amirza@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (Anmar Caves) writes:
>In article <1g1i0nINN2or@darkstar.UCSC.EDU> cpluis@cats.ucsc.edu (Mulatto) writes:
>>
>>
>>just a thought, wouldn't males like to be raped by women.  I mean how can you
>>refuse an offer like that, unless it puts you on a very risky position like if
>>the woman has aids or something.
>>Keep in mind that a typical male wouldn't say that he was raped, instead he
>>would say that he had sex with a "bitch".  sorry to use this terminology but
>>that's exactly what my friends would say.
>
>Yep,  that's it.  Males would love to be raped.  Makes our day.  Makes
>our whole fucking week.
>
>To give a serious answer to your question, no.
>
>-- 
>Anmar Mirza   # Chief of Tranquility  #My Opinions! NotIU's!#Purveyor of
>EMT-D         # Base, Lawrence Co. IN # Legalize Explosives!#nontraditional
>N9ISY (tech)  # Somewhere out on the  # Politicians prefer  #family values
>Networks Tech.# Mirza Ranch.C'mon over# unarmed peasants.   #Space For Rent

There is an article in the December 1982 issue of Omni Magazine that
deals with the subject of women who rape men. The main point of which is
that males who've been sexually victimized by females go through the
samme things that female victims do!

-- 
..........Patrick D. Rockwell..................................................
Internet: prockwel@nyx.calpoly.edu
Prodigy: hnhc85a
From: gt8834a@prism.gatech.EDU (Cott Lang)
Newsgroups: talk.rape
Subject: Re: Rape Law Reform
Date: 14 Dec 92 17:21:25 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology

In <1ghsg0INNf8o@coli-gate.coli.uni-sb.de> simon@fsinfo.cs.uni-sb.de (Julia Simon) writes:

>> to comprimise the defense. The defendant may claim that the sex was consentual.
>> If there is any doubt about this, then the sexual history of the accuser is
>> very relevant. It is certainly unfourtunate for a rape victim, but I don't
>> see any way to fairly avoid the situation.

>OH MY GOD - that's just not fair!!! I mean, if someone steals my purse or
>something, then it's illegal even if I'm known to happily spend all my money

I think a better comparison would be if you claim someone stole your purse,
and that person said you gave it to them, and then it was discovered that
you regularly gave away your purse to people.  =)

-- 
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Newsgroups: talk.rape
From: mcgeegt@eng.auburn.edu (Gary T. McGee)
Subject: RE: Vigilantes
Organization: Auburn University Engineering
Distribution: usa
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 10:11:18 GMT

I have seen the Vigilantes subject many times, and I would just like to add my thoughts on the matter.

I am not a victim of rape, but several people close to me including my sister have been raped. One of my girlfriends was also raped before we started dating. When I heard the story, I felt literally sick with anger. My attitude towards her changed somewhat. I became more caring and understanding about certain things. However, I always kept a hatred in my heart for the guy because I knew who he was. I began anonymously terrorizing him and planning his death. When the moment came, I couldn't bring myself to 


do it (shoot him with a rifle). It actually made me sick to think that I could be capable of doing that.

But, now I regret not pulling the trigger. I have a niece now. My sister works with children who have been sexually abused. The courts do nothing for victims. My sister and I have made a pact that we will kill anyone who abuses our niece.
That may sound harsh to everyone, but we feel that is the only way these scumbags are going to pay for their crimes. 

Now, I am not advocating this for anyone but myself, so no lectures about wrongly influencing others. I merely wanted to express my opinions.

Gary
Newsgroups: talk.rape
From: holzman@d0gslb.fnal.gov (Daniel B. Holzman)
Subject: Re: Rape Law Reform
Organization: Fermi National Accelerator Lab
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 01:30:51 GMT
Distribution: usa
X-Posted-From: d0gslb.fnal.gov
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In article <1992Dec17.164726.22333@news.columbia.edu>, 
dan@cubmol.bio.columbia.edu (Daniel Zabetakis) writes:
>     Why am I wrong?  "I was joking." What proof will you have against this
> if you don't have an act? "I wasn't going to take the money." What proof
> against this without an exchange?

"I was joking" doesn't get you out of any other contract, either.  At the point
the person names the act and the price, a contract has been offered.  At this
point the law has been broken.  Saying that you were only joking doesn't get
you off the hook for verbally threatening someone or talking about bombs in
airports, either.

-- 
Daniel B. Holzman                    | Eight Words the Witch's Rede Fufill:
HOLZMAN@FNAL.BITNET                  | An It Harm None, Do What You Will
HOLZMAN@FNALC.FNAL.GOV.INTERNET      |
                                     | All Acts of Love and Pleasure are
Love doesn't subtract,               | Her Rituals
   it multiplies    - Heinlein       |
                                     | Speak the Word.
Disclaimer:  Fermilab's far too large to have an opinion, let alone mine.
From: mlsa@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (MICHAEL LAUREN SHERMAN)
Newsgroups: talk.rape
Subject: Re: Rape Law Reform
Date: 16 Dec 92 07:44:32 GMT
Organization: Lehigh University

In article <1992Dec13.183054.14064@midway.uchicago.edu>, tb13@ellis.uchicago.edu
 (leon joel gross) writes:
>In article <mcgeegt.921213040105@eng.auburn.edu> mcgeegt@eng.auburn.edu (Gary T
. McGee) writes:
>>I belive that a good way to reform rape laws is to set precedents in court. Th
is is unfortunately very hard as most lawyers will tell you.
>
>>A problem in the courtroom is that women generally have to take the stand and
their sexual history comes up as evidence. I do not understand it. I think if ra
pe was tried as a crime of violence and not a sex crime, then it would be less t
raumatic to the victim. The lives of victims of other crimes don't usually go on
 display.
>
>I'm not a lawyer or a law student, but I believe the above is simply false.
>Many states have a 'rape shield law', in which prior sexual history is
>inadmissible as evidence.
>
>And the victims of other crimes DO have their lives on display if the crime
>is in the context of family, friendship, etc.
>
>>I would like to see the day when a woman can testify without having her sexual
 history brought up. If we find a judge that will disallow that kind of question
ing then we have our precedent. I hope it happens, but I fear that it won't.
>
>That day is already here in many states. In both the Kennedy and Tyson
>'date-rape' trials, the sexual past of the females were not admissible.
>
>>Gary
>
>Leon Gross
>I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV.
>
While I certainly sympathize with rape victims, this country's legal code was
built on the concept that a defendant is to the right to confront his/her
accuser.  If the crime in question alludes to a defense in which the defendant
can legitimately prove that the accuser's actions past or present may prove
the innocense of the defendant they must be admissable for the defendant to
have a fair and complete trial.  I believe that in the Kennedy and Tyson
trials the defendants would have been more fairly served legally if these
actions were admissible.  For instance suppose Victim X had a history of
coming on to men and regretting it later.  This may have caused her to accuse
defendant Y of rape after what may have been consensual sex.  If one person's
rights are at all abridged, the rights of all society are abridged.

-- 
my name is mike and i'm a .sig-a-holic, i have been virtually .sig free for
five days now, my life is so much clearer, i pledge to do my best to never
have a long .sig again.  i don't need one because i'm good enough, i'm smart
enough and god darnit, people like me.  ob info: mlsa@lehigh.edu, mike
sherman phone# 758-0207 disclaimer, we don't neeeed no steeenking disclaimer.
From: rpetsche@mrg.tmc.edu (Rolfe G. Petschek)
Newsgroups: talk.rape
Subject: Re: Contracts (was Re: Rape Law Reform)
Date: 21 Dec 92 01:00:10 GMT
Reply-To: rpetsche@mrg.CWRU.EDU (Rolfe G. Petschek)
Organization: CWRU Physics Department
NNTP-Posting-Host: mrg.phys.cwru.edu

In article <1992Dec18.215509.15459@sequent.com> huggett@sequent.com (Terri Huggett) writes:
>In article <1992Dec18.154250.5187@news.columbia.edu> dan@cubmol.bio.columbia.edu (Daniel Zabetakis) writes:

>agrees to sex for money.  She DOES NOT agree to sex.  Therefore, if the
>john does not pay her, he has raped her because she DID NOT consent to sex.
>He has technically defrauded her as well, but that is a legally
>unenforceable part of the contract.  It is very rare for a prostitute to
>bring such a charge and for a prosecutor to take such a case, and it almost
>always involves serious injury.

Ok.  A man calls a woman, tells her he is a worker at the hospital at
which she just got some tests.  He also tells her that she is very sick
and will die without treatment and that there are two possible
treatments:  1) a painful operation involving a cost of $20,000 and 2) a
act which will appear to be sexual activity with a man and will only
cost $1,000.  They agree on the latter form of treatment, she shows up
at a motel, gives him $1,000 and they have sex.  However it latter
becomes apparant to her that this did not impact in any significant way
on her condition and, in fact she simply paid $1,000 to allow a man to
commit a sex-act with her which she found only slightly less horrendus
than an operation.  He knew this at the time and willfully defrauded
her.

Rape?  Well, no, not when a very similar case was adjudicated (sorry not
to be able to quote the case name etc., I am doing this from memory.)

Generally speaking it is not rape if informed consent is possible and no
significant coercion is used even if a strategem, however vile is
employed to obtain consent.  The case above has facts for fraud, but not
for rape.  Some states (not Ohio) still make it illegal to
promise and then not deliver marriage to obtain consent.  However this
is I think universally a significantly less serious crime than Rape,
generally a misdeamonor.

I would expect that the defrauding of a prostitute would be viewed by
our legal system in a roughly similar way.  I am not completely
convinced that this is a good idea, though I guess that I would view
such cases as generally less serious crimes than forcible rape I would
still think e.g. the one above sufficiently criminal to be felonious
even in the absence of the exchange of money (the only basis for a
charge of Fraud.

I am not an attorney, this is not legal advice, if you take it as such
you are a blithering idiot.  Legal advice should be obtained directly
from a professional.
I have, however bothered to read parts of a legal text.
--
Rolfe G. Petschek			Petschek@cwru.bitnet
Associate Professor of Physics		rgp@po.cwru.edu
Case Western Reserve University		(216)368-4035 
Cleveland Oh 44106-7079
Newsgroups: talk.rape
From: holzman@d0gslb.fnal.gov (Daniel B. Holzman)
Subject: Re: Rape Law Reform
Organization: Fermi National Accelerator Lab
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 23:57:02 GMT
Distribution: usa
X-Posted-From: d0gslb.fnal.gov
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In article <1992Dec15.151525.10457@news.columbia.edu>, 
dan@cubmol.bio.columbia.edu (Daniel Zabetakis) writes:
>    Hate to break it to you, but:
> 
> 1) Failing to pay a prostitute does not make it rape.
> 2) Failing to pay is not a crime or a tort.
> 3) Failing to pay in fact makes the transaction legal.

Hate to break it to you but:

1) The lack of consent makes it rape.
2) The agreement to pay is what makes it illegal.  Those undercover cops don't
have to wait until after the deed is done to do the bust.

-- 
Daniel B. Holzman                    | Eight Words the Witch's Rede Fufill:
HOLZMAN@FNAL.BITNET                  | An It Harm None, Do What You Will
HOLZMAN@FNALC.FNAL.GOV.INTERNET      |
                                     | All Acts of Love and Pleasure are
Love doesn't subtract,               | Her Rituals
   it multiplies    - Heinlein       |
                                     | Speak the Word.
Disclaimer:  Fermilab's far too large to have an opinion, let alone mine.
From: jstc_ss@troi.cc.rochester.edu (j. collins)
Newsgroups: talk.rape
Subject: Re: Female Rapists
Date: 14 Dec 92 03:57:50 GMT
Organization: University of Rochester - Rochester, New York

In <1g1i0nINN2or@darkstar.UCSC.EDU> cpluis@cats.ucsc.edu (Mulatto) writes:



>just a thought, wouldn't males like to be raped by women.  I mean how can you
>refuse an offer like that, unless it puts you on a very risky position like if
>the woman has aids or something.
>Keep in mind that a typical male wouldn't say that he was raped, instead he
>would say that he had sex with a "bitch".  sorry to use this terminology but
>that's exactly what my friends would say.
>cp

NO!!!

I have never been raped, but there have been two seperate incidents in my
life when I have had a female come on way to strong.  They both refused to
take slight hints that I was not interested.  I finally had to tell both
of them to leave me the Fuck alone.  I felt very powerless when this 
was happening.  I am not interested in having sex for sex's sake (most of
the time that is), I am interested in sharing myself with someone, usually
someone I care for.  

peace,
-justin m. collins <jstc_ss@troi.cc.rochester.edu>
Newsgroups: talk.rape