HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: rohit@NeoSoft.com (Rohit Mehrotra)
Subject: Re: BRIEF, CRISP, EMACS
Organization: NeoSoft Communications Services -- (713) 684-5900
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1992 19:10:15 GMT

In article <DAVIS.92Nov22122214@pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu> davis@pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu  (John E. Davis) writes:
>
>Am I wrong in assuming that if GNU emacs were available for ALL msdos
>machines, with the same power that it has on unix machines, then there would
>be less talk about BRIEF and CRISP?  It is not my intention to start a flame
>war; rather, I'd just like to understand the existing flame war that is
>subtly going on.  It is my understanding that because of it is impossible to
>port GNU emacs to say my XT, BRIEF, CRISP, EPSILON, and others have stepped in
>to fulfill this need.

Smile, Smile, GNU Emacs is a great editor, however people still prefer
to be able to 'see what they mark', 'not be restricted with line lengths',
'not break out of search mode if you happen to want to center the selected 
line', 'still be able to have some memory for other programs _while_ using 
EMACS ', 'not have to use the marked text in the very next command' etc etc. 

Oh Ya, some not so enlightened like us do consider ease of use a criterion too 
with all those complicated Ctrl key combinations of EMACS.

Often heard phrase in the EMACS world: Yes EMACS can do it, a little bit of
ELISP programing, with this add on package in this revision in that 
implementation :-). Boy, that is simple.

Please leave this newsgroup for the whimpy editors like JOE, BRIEF, QEDIT, 
etc.

P.S: There is not much you can do in EMACS that you cannot do in CRISP, albeit
in a much simple fashion and without doing all that ELISP programming. And yes,
CRISP is on UNIX, and has a C as well as a lisp like macro language :-)

-- 
Rohit Mehrotra
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
VITAL				| 	10755 Meadowglen Lane, #238
Ph: 713-781-7406		| 	Houston, TX 77042.
Newsgroups: comp.editors
From: hansm@cs.kun.nl (Hans Mulder)
Subject: Re: How can I resize Elvis in a xterm window?
Organization: University of Nijmegen, The Netherlands
Distribution: inet
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 15:25:50 GMT

In <1eb886INN2ic@lambda.db.erau.edu> ralp@db.erau.edu (Ralph E. Bugg) writes:

>hansm@cs.kun.nl (Hans Mulder) writes:
>>I have tested vi variants.  The one that comes with SunOS 4.0.x does react
>>to SIGWINCH; the one that comes with 4.1.x doesn't.  Weird, but true.
>>Sun's explanation is that the "new" version of vi (since when does SVR3.1
>>count as "new" ???) is 8-bit clean and the other one isn't.  And who would
>>run X windows on a Sun anyway :-?
>Hey I do...

You might want to tell Sun about it.  Then maybe they make it work again
in the next release.

>BTW... I myself have never gotten vi on 4.1.x to work resizing either...

You have to type:

	Q
	set term=xterm
	vi

You can't :map these commands, but you can yank the lower two lines
into "q and use Q@Q<return>.

Yes, it's absurd to set term=xterm when it is xterm already, but that's the
way to tell the SunOS 4.1.x version of vi that the window size has changed.

I'd be surprised if this works for Elvis....

>but then I don't have a need to resize my windows...

Lucky you.  It's a pain.

--
Hope this helps,

Hans Mulder			hansm@cs.kun.nl
Newsgroups: comp.editors
From: hansm@cs.kun.nl (Hans Mulder)
Subject: Re: VI??? GROSS!
Organization: University of Nijmegen, The Netherlands
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 11:33:38 GMT

In <1992Nov16.082002.26122@cadlab.sublink.org> martelli@cadlab.sublink.org (Alex Martelli) writes:
>Yes, or, more generally, go to the first character you want, type ma,
>go to the last chaacter you want, type mz, and now typing: "a`ay`z
>will yank this arbitrary block into named-buffer a,

Yes, but it's simpler to skip the mz, and yank the block by typing "ay`a ....

>or "a`ad`z will delete the same block into named-buffer a;

So will "ad`a  ....

>placing the cursor anywhere and typing: "ap, or "aP, will place the
>named-buffer contents after, resp. before, the cursor.

--
Hope this helps,

Hans Mulder				hansm@cs.kun.nl
Newsgroups: comp.editors
From: Richard.Kooijman@dnpap.et.tudelft.nl (Richard Kooijman)
Subject: Re: Brief (Borland editor)
Organization: Delft University of Technology, Dept. of Electrical Engineering
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 15:00:18 GMT

rohit@NeoSoft.com (Rohit Mehrotra) writes:

>CRISP is no longer a public domain software. The latest version of Crisp is 
>3.0+ and is being sold commercially. The commercial version of Crisp has left
>BRIEF far behind, both in terms of features and user interface. 

And in pricing too, as far as I understand.


Richard.
--
-- ir. Richard Kooijman ------------------ Email: R.Kooijman@ET.TUDelft.NL --
-- Intelligent Network Management Project (INEMA) ---------------------------
-- CARDIT, Delft University of Technology ------------ Tel: (31)-15-786209 --
-- P.O.Box 5031, 2600 GA Delft, The Netherlands ------ Fax: (31)-15-784898 --
From: zchen@phys.ksu.edu (Zheng Chen)
Newsgroups: comp.editors
Subject: Re: Arbitrary text blocks (Was: VI??? GROSS!)
Date: 17 Nov 92 17:11:45 GMT
Distribution: inet
Organization: Department of Physics, Kansas State University, Manhattan KS, USA
NNTP-Posting-Host: kelvin.phys.ksu.edu

>>
>
>I agree. I though vi was used for editing programs and text files.  If
>any one is looking for something which allows selecting rectangle
>blocks and columns, shouldn't they be using a word processor or a
>spread sheet???  
>

No. For those who do scientific calculations, block manipulation is very
helpful in constructing the input, output files. Sometimes I need to
analyze something and I need these data from several places in a file.
The word processors don't help because they don't allow you to have 150
colunms. As for the spread sheet, I can do much better than that. For
me, I don't think it's very useful, unless you are business minded
(no flame please).

BTW, vi can manage blocks fairly easily.




--

_____________________________________________________________________________
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Zheng Chen
Newsgroups: comp.editors
From: davis@pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu ("John E. Davis")
Subject: BRIEF, CRISP, EMACS
Reply-To: davis@pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu  (John E. Davis)
Organization: "Dept. of Physics, The Ohio State University"
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1992 17:22:14 GMT


Am I wrong in assuming that if GNU emacs were available for ALL msdos
machines, with the same power that it has on unix machines, then there would
be less talk about BRIEF and CRISP?  It is not my intention to start a flame
war; rather, I'd just like to understand the existing flame war that is
subtly going on.  It is my understanding that because of it is impossible to
port GNU emacs to say my XT, BRIEF, CRISP, EPSILON, and others have stepped in
to fulfill this need.
--
     _____________
#___/John E. Davis\_________________________________________________________
#
# internet: davis@amy.tch.harvard.edu
#   bitnet: davis@ohstpy
#   office: 617-735-6746
#
Newsgroups: comp.editors
From: rbt@tous.oau.org (Robert B. Tate)
Subject: Re: Comments on Brief ( and Crisp )
Organization: Tate Enterprises
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1992 17:38:49 GMT

	First of all, this was VERY hard to read because it was formatted
	at 88 char long lines. All the world is not a SUN with wierd
	sized screens

In article <1992Nov20.175319.16955@ee.ubc.ca> markm@ee.ubc.ca (mark milligan) writes:
>
>
>I fell in love with brief the first time I used it. My favorite feature is the collum 
>cut and paste, this is a feature I have not found on any other dos editor. I find the 

	Qedit has it and it is great!

>
>As for the new Comercial version of Crisp ( are you listening Mr. Fox? )
I was shocked, >dismayed, hurt, insulted, and generaly pissed off to find
that my favorite editor had gone >from Public Domain $0.00, free, zilch,
nada to comercial $300.00, overpriced, way out of my >reach, sorry I
can't afford it, you won't sell many at that price.  I would love to get
the >new version of Crisp but I can't afford It. ( sorry paul, you just
lost a sale ).  They would probably sell a boatload of them if the price
was under a hundred bucks.  > > >

	I agree! I have exchanged email about the priceing of CRISP and
	there was some comments about lowering the price (with some
	restrictions), but I haven't heard any more about it. For the
	individual to buy it (like you and I) the price has to get down
	to a reasonable level!


-- 
 rbt@tous.OAU.ORG  (Robert B. Tate)       | A little knowledge is a dangerous
 {ucf-cs,peora,tarpit}!tous!rbt           | thing. Any less can kill you.
Newsgroups: comp.editors,comp.unix.questions
From: kashyap@oddjob.uchicago.edu (Vinay Kashyap)
Subject: where no vi has gone before...? (CORRECTION)
Summary: questions on vi use (correction to Q.3)
Organization: U. of Chicago, Astronomy and Astrophysics
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 23:07:18 GMT

I had posted a list of questions on vi, and Tuomas Lukka pointed out
that question 3 didn't make sense:

>3. Is there a way to prepend or append characters to macros without
>   (a) introducing newlines between the additions, &/or
>   (b) writing to the file and deleting to a named buffer
It should have read as follows (I apologize for the error):

3. Is there a way to prepend or append characters to BUFFERS without
   (a) introducing newlines between additions (yanking to an uppercase
   buffer appends to text already in the buffer, but on a new line) &/or
   (b) writing to the file and deleting to the named buffer (in other
   words, are there ways to put characters in named buffers other than
   yanking/deleting text)?

Vinay (kashyap@oddjob.uchicago.edu)
Newsgroups: comp.editors
From: rohit@NeoSoft.com (Rohit Mehrotra)
Subject: Re: Comments on Brief ( and Crisp )
Organization: NeoSoft Communications Services -- (713) 684-5900
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1992 02:52:56 GMT

In article <1992Nov20.175319.16955@ee.ubc.ca> markm@ee.ubc.ca (mark milligan) 
writes:
>
>As for the new Comercial version of Crisp ( are you listening Mr. Fox? ) I 
>was shocked, dismayed, hurt, insulted, and generaly pissed off to find that 
>my favorite editor had gone from Public Domain $0.00, free, zilch, nada to 
>comercial $300.00, overpriced, way out of my reach, sorry I can't afford it, 
>you won't sell many at that price.  I would love to get the new version of 
>Crisp but I can't afford It. ( sorry paul, you just lost a sale ).  They 
>would probably sell a boatload of them if the price was under a hundred bucks. 

Knowing Paul personally, I am not sure if he will ever reply to this 
article. I will also try not to extoll the virtues of Crisp as that will
go against Paul's philosophy of "Crisp's praise has to come from the 
people using it, not by the people selling it".

However, let me ask you a few questions and mention a few facts.

Fact: Yep, CRISP is fairly expensive. 

If you are using version 2.2e of Crisp, it is a shareware product with a 
$60.00 value. Did you ever send Paul the money. Do you think that this
may very well be the trend that forced the author to take it commercial.
Software developers have a family to support too :-)

BRIEF, before this temporary Borland promotion, was always sold at a price 
greater than $200.00. It is a fact that BRIEF has sold more in numbers than
every other editor combined under DOS. Is there really a specific reason that 
commercial version of Crisp should be at half the price of BRIEF, when in 
reality it outshines BRIEF in just about every respect. 

CRISP, the commercial version has been such a big success even with a hefty
price tag that it has surprised even the author himself. Maybe the commercial 
version does truly justify its price, maybe :-).

Any way, your input is appreciated, and I will pass it on to Paul. Maybe 
there should be a DOS-Like pricing with DOS-Like licensing. There has to
be a compromise somewhere :-)

Thanks
-- 
Rohit Mehrotra
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
VITAL				| 	10755 Meadowglen Lane, #238
Ph: 713-781-7406		| 	Houston, TX 77042.
Newsgroups: comp.editors,comp.unix.questions
From: kashyap@oddjob.uchicago.edu (Vinay Kashyap)
Subject: where no vi has gone before...? (CORRECTION)
Summary: questions on vi use (correction to Q.3)
Organization: U. of Chicago, Astronomy and Astrophysics
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 02:35:07 GMT

I had posted a list of questions on vi, and Tuomas Lukka pointed out
that question 3 didn't make sense:

>3. Is there a way to prepend or append characters to macros without
>   (a) introducing newlines between the additions, &/or
>   (b) writing to the file and deleting to a named buffer
It should have read as follows (I apologize for the error):

3. Is there a way to prepend or append characters to BUFFERS without
   (a) introducing newlines between additions (yanking to an uppercase
   buffer appends to text already in the buffer, but on a new line) &/or
   (b) writing to the file and deleting to the named buffer (in other
   words, are there ways to put characters in named buffers other than
   yanking/deleting text)?

Vinay (kashyap@oddjob.uchicago.edu)
Newsgroups: comp.editors
From: dattier@orac.holonet.net (DWT)
Subject: Re: VI - finding lines longer than 80 characters
Organization: Information Access Technologies, Inc. of Berkeley, CA
Distribution: na
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1992 21:04:47 GMT

In article <1992Nov20.212000.14999@cs.wisc.edu> cheevers@wolf.cs.wisc.edu
(John Cheevers) wrote:

>The "&" key will execute the last substitute command.  Strangely, it only 
>does it once - If your last command was
>
>	:s/recieve/receive/g
>
>Then hitting "&" executes
>
>	:s/recieve/receive	(without the "g")

The & command does lose the flags of the subsitute command that it repeats,
but you can reissue the flags by using ex's & command instead of vi's:

:&g

or if the substitution worked out so well that you want to do it everywhere,

:%&g

David W. Tamkin   P. O. Box 59297   Northtown Station, Illinois  60659-0297
dattier@{holonet.net|gagme.chi.il.us}  CIS: 73720,1570   MCI Mail: 426-1818
Newsgroups: comp.editors
From: fjp@minerva.inesc.pt (Fernando Pereira)
Subject: Re: Arbitrary text blocks (Was: VI??? GROSS!)
Organization: INESC, Lisboa, Portugal
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 22:44:26 GMT

In article <1992Nov17.005252@gruc19.nor.chevron.com> hjiwa@gruc19.nor.chevron.com (Jeff Wang) writes:
>bvaughan@sheps.Princeton.EDU (Barbara Vaughan) writes:
>
>|> I also found this feature useful when writing programs.  Let's say I have
>|> a section of code I decide to make conditional, so I want to indent it to
>|> make an "if.. then.." block.  I just insert a column of blanks in front of
>|> that section of code.




>
>You could use :'a,'bs/^/  / to shift a block to the right.

What about:

	>'a (TO INDENT) or
	<'a (TO UNINDENT)
-- 
*********************************************************************
*   Fernando J. G. Pereira     IST/INESC                            *
*   Lisboa - Portugal          fjp@minerva.inesc.pt                 *
*********************************************************************
Newsgroups: comp.editors
From: rfs@se28.wg2.waii.com (Robert Starr)
Newsgroups: comp.editors
Subject: Re: Anyone use SAM?
Keywords: sam, ai
Date: 20 Nov 92 14:50:46 GMT
Reply-To: starr@wg2.waii.com
Organization: Western Geophysical

In article <722179001.3244@minster.york.ac.uk>, pete@minster.york.ac.uk writes:
|> Stephen J Bevan (bevan@cs.man.ac.uk) wrote:
|> 
|> Hmmm. Having indentation _built in_ to your editor is something I'm always
|> a bit wary of -- for example, I've yet to find a C mode in an editor which I
|> think works sensibly; and when it comes to C++.... The alternatives are
|> *Peter Fenelon -- Research Associate -- Software Safety Assessment Procedures*


Yeah, but vi never had an "electric-C" mode, and most of us vi folks don't
miss it.  But settable tabs, auto-indent, and brace matching are not
a lot to ask from a programmers editor.  Sam looks good, but I cannot
understand why these 3 simple features were left out (unless I missed
something in the supplied documentation).

-- 
| Bob Starr (starr@wg2.waii.com) | Western Geophysical | Opinions R mine! |
| ===> Perling down the interstate on my Harley.......................... |
Newsgroups: comp.editors
From: ejk@ux2.cso.uiuc.edu (Ed Kubaitis - CCSO)
Subject: Re: Anyone use SAM?
Organization: University of Illinois - Urbana
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 17:42:33 GMT
Keywords: sam, ai

boyd@prl.dec.com (Boyd Roberts) writes:
  |rfs@se28.wg2.waii.com (Robert Starr) writes:
  |> But settable tabs, auto-indent, and brace matching are not
  |> a lot to ask from a programmers editor.  Sam looks good, but I cannot
  |> understand why these 3 simple features were left out (unless I missed
  |> something in the supplied documentation).
  |
  |Sam does brace matching with a double click on button 1:
  |
  |     Button 1 changes selection.  Pointing to a non-current window with but-
  |     ton 1 makes it current; within the current window, button 1 selects
  |     text, thus setting dot.  Double-clicking selects text to the boundaries
  |     of words, lines, quoted strings or bracketed strings, depending on the
  |     text at the click.
  |
  |It lets your left hand do auto indent.  Just how hard is it to type tab?

Well, I suppose tab's not so bad if you mostly write/modify K&R style
full-tab indent C. One hit for each line for level 1, two hits/line for 
level 2, ...  By the time you get to 5 or so, your text is going to wrap 
around so it's hard to read anyway, so you don't care about speed;-)

Seriously, part of the answer probably *is* that full tab indentation is 
all Murray Hill (and lots of other people) want. But having worked on adding 
a vi-like ai/sw to samterm, I suspect another part of the answer is that 
adding features to samterm is not all that easy/clean to do. The relevant 
piece of code for ai/sw is samterm/main.c:type(), an event-driven pinball 
machine whose only only two comments are:

	/* what a bloody mess this is */

and a bit later

	/* ICK */

Encouraged by those comments to commit further atrocities, I persevered
and got an ai/sw option working (to a first order) over the weekend.

What made it hard is one of the things that makes Sam interesting. Sam 
(like 8 1/2) was designed to make a bitmap graphic interface responsive 
not only at LAN speeds, but over low speed (as low as 9600) lines to your 
bitmap display at *home*. The (largely undocumented) caches/Rasps/protocols
between sam and samterm to make remote mouse driven editing work over 
9600 BPS lines do not yield source code that invites adding "features".

Other things (besides remote editing) that make Sam interesting (to me):

   o structural expression pipelines 
   o undo to help you interactively develop them 
   o multi-file editing
   o the clean, small command set and simple graphical interface might 
     make sam a good editor for new-to-unix people.

You don't bother with Sam if all you want is small-muscle ergonomics. 
With only Sam's spartan and hard-to-modify (IMO) graphical interface 
to commend it, I would have abandoned it rather than pursue a few comforts 
for my vi-wired lower brain.

----------------------------------
Ed Kubaitis (ejk@ux2.cso.uiuc.edu)
Computing & Communications Services Office - University of Illinois, Urbana
From: pete@minster.york.ac.uk
Newsgroups: comp.editors
Subject: Re: Anyone use SAM?
Date: 17 Nov 92 12:44:29 GMT
Organization: Department of Computer Science, University of York, England

Stephen J Bevan (bevan@cs.man.ac.uk) wrote:

      [I (pete@minster) wrote, about Sam:]
:    (4)	It does what I want it to do, without the need for me to write
: 	   a pile of silly macros or Lisp functions.
: 
: I agree with the first three.  The fourth point is one of the problems
: I have with it: in a couple of cases it doesn't do what I want, and
: there is no simple way to extend it.  A prime example is knowing
: something about the indentation of languages.  I write a fair amount
: of Scheme and I find it tough going in sam.  Maybe I've been spoilt by
: previous editors or maybe it is part of Pike's philosophy that the
: editor should not help with indentation ... etc.
: 
: bevan

But the redirection mechanism inside sam allows you to pipe arbitrary blocks of
text through Unix pipelines -- write a scheme indentation tool, select your
block of Lisp and then use the ``|'' command in the command window to pipe
it through the formatter...

So yes, as I see it that sort of mechanism is taken care of by external
means, keeping the editor as small and neat as possible.

Pete
--
*Peter Fenelon -- Research Associate -- Software Safety Assessment Procedures*
Dept. of Computer Science, University of York, York, Y01 5DD (+44/0)904 433388
EMAIL: pete@minster.york.ac.uk `There's no room for enigmas in built up areas'
Newsgroups: comp.editors
From: buboo@alf.uib.no (Ove Ruben R Olsen)
Subject: The Lambs :-) [WAS: Re: VI??? GROSS!]
Followup-To: poster
Organization: University of Bergen, Norway
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 92 08:01:26 GMT

Soh Kam Hung writes:
>buboo@alf.uib.no (Ove Ruben R Olsen) writes:
>
>>Beware the ignorance of the Lambs :-)
>
>Baa baa to you, Ove!  What does the ``ignorance of the lambs'' mean?
>I don't know whether to be amused or mortified.  P-)

Feel amused, that was my intention. I coined the phrase in another
newsgroup, and it's A Good Thing to say in certain circumstances.

Some people have letting religious thoughs into it (christians mostly),
but this is not the case. 

It's main purposes is meant to be funny and light and should never
be consider as a light flame.

Those who realy understand The Ignorance of The Lambs know what it 
realy is :-))

\Ruben.
(Flames to the poster, not to the group :-)

-- 
        Ove Ruben R Olsen a Gnarfer and VI user. EMAIL: ruben@uib.no. 
     Maintaining the EX/VI-archive and a couple of the Comp.Editors FAQs.
    People that are ignorant tend to live a frustrated life, at least when 
     it comes to editing - But I do belive this is a general rule in life
From: bevan@cs.man.ac.uk (Stephen J Bevan)
Newsgroups: comp.editors
Subject: Re: Anyone use SAM?
Date: 20 Nov 92 15:53:37 GMT
Organization: Department of Computer Science, University of Manchester
In-reply-to: pete@minster.york.ac.uk's message of 19 Nov 92 13:16:41 GMT

In article <722179001.3244@minster.york.ac.uk> pete@minster.york.ac.uk writes:
   Hmmm. Having indentation _built in_ to your editor is something I'm always
   a bit wary of -- for example, I've yet to find a C mode in an editor which I
   think works sensibly; and when it comes to C++....

True, but that's why I mainly write in Scheme :-)  
You might not like the syntax, but it is relatively easy to make the
editor "do the right thing" wrt indentation.

   The alternatives are either to write some humongous GNUemacs-type
   functions to do it, or write a small, neat external tool which
   handles the job and is re-usable anywhere. I prefer the latter, but
   respect those who can tolerate the former.

The actual code to do the indentation is not large, though I'll grant
you that GNU Emacs is rather large for an editor, but then I don't
think of it as an editor.  As to being re-usable, I do use the code
to indent Scheme, I just invoke Emacs from a script.

bevan