From: hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin)
Newsgroups: sci.engr,sci.edu,misc.education,sci.engr.biomed,sci.engr.chem
Subject: Re: Foreign Students / Faculty
Summary: Observations by a professor
Date: 11 Apr 92 19:52:18 GMT
Followup-To: sci.engr
Organization: Purdue University Statistics Department

In article <GERRY.92Apr9160546@onion.cmu.edu> gerry@cmu.edu (Gerry Roston) writes:

>[I will offer a viewpoint contrary to most of the others that have
>been posted.]

>In article <1992Apr8.022921.6693@msuinfo.cl.msu.edu> khafagi@egr.msu.edu (Bassem K. Khafagi) writes:

>   * 1. Do you feel FE are assets or burden to the system

>Burden: Students in other countries must, by the nature of their
>educational systems, rise to the very top, or they will be shut out.
>This means that in competing with American students, who do not
>necessarily have the same work ethic, they will appear to be the
>better choice.  This means that at our best schools, the foreigners
>displace Americans, which has an impact of our country's future.

It is not as simple as this.  The present American students have 
enough of a work ethic, but they have been either brainwashed or
deprived of the necessary background.  At least at our school we
are willing to take the extra time, but there is none of the willingness
to admit they they "don't know from nothin' " and do what is needed
to make up their deficiencies, or, and this happens, they seem to
be incapable of doing it.  At least in my department, they are told
that we know that the foreign students generally have a far better
background, and that they are not expected to compete, but to achieve
the standards of our examinations, which we try very hard to make
as close to absolute as we can.

>   * 2. Do you beleive they discourage women or minorities from the
>eng. profession

>Discourage: Many of the foriegners come from middle eastern or
>oriental societies, both of which heavily discriminate against women.  

The proportion of women in our PhD program is higher among Asians
than it is among Americans.  We have no shortage of strong Asian
women applying, but we do have an extreme shortage of American women.

>   * 3. Do they have any impact on the Salaries (for Faculty or
>Engineers)

>Lower: Many of the foreigners want to stya in the USA after
>graduation.  The only way to do so is to get a green card.  To get
>that, they must have an employer.  Employers, knowing this, offer
>lower salaries which the foreigners will not refuse because they want
>to stay.  An employer then has the option to hire a qualified
>American at one price or an equally qualified foreigner at a lowr
>price...

I can only speak about the academic market, but this does not seem to
be the situation.  There are a large number of applicants, but of the
ones we have considered acceptable there are not many.

>   * 4. How the system can benifit from their existence in the U.S.

>   * 5. For Students taught by Foreign Faculty or TA's, What is your
>feedback

>It depends on the individual's ability to clearly express themself in
>English.  I have found that many foreign students tend to surround
>themselves with people from their home country and they talk in their
>native language.  This does little to improve their use of the English
>language.  You are only as good as your ability to clearly communicate
>your ideas.

At our university, after a totally unjustified bad report about a Korean
TA (anyone having trouble with his English was just looking for excuses).
the mathematics department set up a careful screening system.  Its main
effect, besides ruling out the foreigners who had previously been caught
as unable to communicate, was to turn up many Americans who knew little
of the material they had supposedly learned.

There are some who have real problems, but they are not the ones quoted
above.  Their main problems are of pronouncing English phonemes, and this
cannot be treated as not understanding the language.  In general, speaking
English with American graduate students will not help, as those problems
are not too serious for someone who understands the subject.

-- 
Herman Rubin, Dept. of Statistics, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette IN47907-1399
Phone: (317)494-6054
hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Internet, bitnet)  
{purdue,pur-ee}!pop.stat!hrubin(UUCP)
Newsgroups: sci.engr