HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: Bruce_Harper@mindlink.bc.ca (Bruce Harper)
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
Subject: Re: The ultimate weapon
Date: 21 Aug 92 13:44:38 GMT
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Distribution: world

The "expense" or cost of an "ultimate weapon" need not me measures in dollars
(or pounds, francs or whatever).  As pointed out (and I assume it to be true),
the French didn't use the "ultimate weapon" because of the political cost.  For
game design purposes, this is enough - there just must be something given up in
order to development, build or use the ultimate weapon (the political cost of
using tactical nuclear weapons might be considered another example).
From: dlaird@terapin.com (Delbert Laird)
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
Subject: Re: Mapping to hex sheets
Date: 16 Aug 92 14:51:06 PST
Organization: BBS

In article <Bszq8x.55A@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, cdcg9698@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Charles
D. Croxton) writes:
>Okay, I've got a hex sheet, and I've got a map.  How do I get the
>map onto the hexsheet?  I've heard of such a thing as a "light table"
>that exists for this purpose, but I have no idea how to make one or
>where to find one.  Does anyone have any ideas?
>
>Thanks for your help.
>
>Derek Croxton
If your doing this primarily for yourself and your gaming group, do what I
often do:  Take a large picture frame with a glass cover and remove the
cardboard backing.  Tape your pre-drawn map to the glass (but only at the edges
of your paper) and get your hex sheet ready.

Take a standard table top lamp and place it under a desk (one that you'll be
working at) and plug it in.  With the frame propped up on the desk and your
lap, you'll be able to look through the hex sheet and see the map underneath
well enough to copy to the sheet.

OR...

You can get special hex sheets (used for surveying) that is transparent and
simply photocopy the map and hex sheet on a standard copier. (Note:  These
sheets are fairly expensive and usually come in bundles of 25, 50 and 100.)

dlaird@terapin
From: dlaird@terapin.com (Delbert Laird)
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
Subject: Alive?
Date: 15 Aug 92 15:14:51 PST
Organization: BBS

Is anyone still participating in this newsgroup?..I haven't seen anything new
here in over a week.

dlaird@terapin.com
From: wedge@constitution.ucr.edu (John J. Wegis)
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
Subject: Program to Print Hexagon Maps
Summary: Program to print hexmaps on a postscript laser printer.
Keywords: Hex Map Postscript
Date: 12 Aug 92 17:49:50 GMT
Organization: University of California, Riverside


I am looking for a program that will generate a postscript file of hexagon
squares for a laser printer.  (i.e. a map of "hex" squares)  Does anyone
know where I can find such a program?  (I am using a Sun computer system
with Unix and X Windows with a Sparc printer.) 

I want to use the hex map for a game I'm developing.

Thanks.

John J. Wegis       (wedge@constitution.ucr.edu)
From: jpg@bnr.co.uk (Jonathan P. Gibbons)
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
Subject: Virtual Reality
Date: 18 Aug 92 09:12:53 GMT
Distribution: rec
Organization: BNR Europe Ltd, London Rd, Harlow, Essex, CM19 9NA, U.K.

Talking of starting new topics, here goes.

There is a comp[any in the UK that has started a VR D&D setup.  For those who
don't know (are there any?) VR involves puting a helmet and gloves on.  The 
helmet contains two displays - one for each eye - and sensors to detect head
movement.  As a persons head moves the image on the screen(s) changes to 
reflect the new view.  The gloves are also special and the computer system
monitors their position with respect to the person.  In this way the computer
adds pictures of the gloves (hands) into the view seen by the helmet.  The 
helmet also contains sound systems etc.  The over all effect is that you feel
you are actually there (where ever there may be).  Further work is underway
to make full body suits, add smell etc

Anyway, the D&D system has three races (elf, human, dwarf) and several classes.
Each group can have up to four people in it.  Each player sees the others as
their race.  So a player looking at another who has chosen an elf sees an elf.
The players voices are also raised or lowered electronically to fit race and
sex.  So when I speak I hear my voice but microphones pick it up and it is
changed and broadcast over speakers in the helmets to other players.  

Each race and class also sees the world differently, a dwarf sees view from a
lower perspective than an elf etc (no matter how tall the actual player).  An
elf will see clear english text whereas the others will see meaningless
elven symbols and so on. 

The system is young, my question would be what other features could be added
to make it more real for race and class.

Jonathan
--
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  With fearsome eyes and fiery breath the dragon burnt the girl to death
                    -- from "Too Late Saint George"
From: hine@netcom.com (Graham L. Hine)
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
Subject: Re: The ultimate weapon
Summary: Bow thru armor
Keywords: armor, bows
Date: 21 Aug 92 20:40:42 GMT
Followup-To: sender
Distribution: usa
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)

In article <JPG.92Aug21113138@holly.bnr.co.uk> jpg@bnr.co.uk (Jonathan P. Gibbons) writes:
>
>As for the idea of making Long Bows expensive, I don't like!  In History the 
>whole of the UK went in for them.  It became enthroned in law and culture and
>so was not any more expensive.  As for running out of arrows, any general 
>worth his salt makes sure that it won't happen until most of the enemy are 
>accouted for.  As for cavalry being the solution, not convinced.  A long bow 
>goes  =straight through armour at fairly long range (400m ? I forget but can 
>find out) so I'd guess it can take out a little horsey.  On average the UK 
>armies won during this period. 
>
>Jonathan

I seem to remember a documentary where a guy was trying to see just how
deadly the longbow would be to armor.  He tried a couple of different
points for the arrows, and a couple of different thicknesses of armor. 
The thin armor would be like the thinnest part of a knights armor. The 
thick stuff is equivalent to the average thickness on a breastplate. If
I recall correctly, the bow was useless beyond a relatively short range
(40m) against the thick stuff, and even close in would cause blows that 
were arguably lethal.  The bow was really good at going through the thinner
metal.  Does anyone recall this experiment more accurately, I saw it years
ago and was only mildly interested at the time I saw it.

-Graham
From: marauder@diku.dk (Stephan Dahl)
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
Subject: Re: Virtual Reality
Date: 20 Aug 92 13:07:35 GMT
Distribution: rec
Organization: Department of Computer Science, U of Copenhagen

tinsel@uiuc.edu (Thomas Aaron Insel) writes:

>jpg@bnr.co.uk (Jonathan P. Gibbons) writes:

>>There is a comp[any in the UK that has started a VR D&D setup.  For those who
>>don't know (are there any?) VR involves puting a helmet and gloves on.  The 
>>helmet contains two displays - one for each eye - and sensors to detect head
>>[..]

>Neat.  Why does the uk always seem to be ahead on these nifty gaming things?

>>Anyway, the D&D system has three races (elf, human, dwarf) and several classes.
>>Each group can have up to four people in it.  Each player sees the others as
>>their race.  So a player looking at another who has chosen an elf sees an elf.
>>The players voices are also raised or lowered electronically to fit race and
>>sex.  So when I speak I hear my voice but microphones pick it up and it is
>>changed and broadcast over speakers in the helmets to other players.  
>>Each race and class also sees the world differently, a dwarf sees view from a
>>lower perspective than an elf etc (no matter how tall the actual player).  An
>>elf will see clear english text whereas the others will see meaningless
>>elven symbols and so on. 

>In addition to what you say, elves probably see hidden doors that other 
>players don't, dwarves see shifting stonework, etc.  If it doesn't work 
>this way, these would be something to try.

>>The system is young, my question would be what other features could be added
>>to make it more real for race and class.

>With this level of hardware, the easiest and most effective thing to do 
>is modify the perceptions of each player.  It might be interesting to 
>alter color perception.  Ie, dwarves are adapted for darkness, so they can 
>see heat, but as a result, they've lost some of the purple end of the 
>spectrum.  This might, however, be too disconcerting for players.  

You should try reading the Niven/Barnes book Dream Park 3 (The Voodoo Game).
In the first two books (Dream Park, The Barsoom Project) they hypothesized a
VR/Live roleplaying system based on holographics, but changing State of the
Art has made them change concept. Anyway, the system described is a kind of
live RPG with a VR "overlay" through a kind of goggle system, letting
thieves spot traps &c, &c. Jolly good yarn, too. Recommended.

				Stephan Dahl
				marauder@freja.diku.dk
From: mphurst@athena.mit.edu (Mark P Hurst)
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
Subject: Re: Combat system for frp
Date: 20 Aug 92 14:03:54 GMT
Article-I.D.: athena.1992Aug20.140354.28279
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology

In article <1992Aug19.234332.10223@waikato.ac.nz> rmarsh@waikato.ac.nz writes:
>In article <Bt77sA.21o@rice.edu>, tomscud@ruf.rice.edu (Thomas Reid Scudder) writes:
>> 
>> 	I've been putting in some work on designing a diceless combat system 
>[...]
>
>These and a few other things in the post reminded me of an old book combat
>system called [if my memory will provide me with the name... Lost Worlds!].
>What you are suggesting seems to be an attempt at a general version of the
>Lost Worlds books concept. All the books used the same page numbers for the
>same (or similar) attacks, each player chooses an action (Sideswing
>high/Jump back/Thrust low/Downswing Bash etc.) and depending on the chosen
>actions one or other, or neither or both combatants get hurt. Some
[...]
>the concept could be generalised. It even has a rudimentary experience
>system.
>  The bad news... while I've been writing this post I've been trying to
>remember who published the things and it's totally slipped my mind. I think
>they may be out of print now, but if you want to go on with this project
>I'd try to get hold of at least a couple of them.
>-- 
>Robert 'Stumpy' Marsh | 95 Fairfield Rd | I can't reply to E-Mail, but 
>rmarsh@waikato.ac.nz  | Hamilton        | don't let that stop you sending.
>+64 7 855 4406        | New Zealand     |

I met the inventor of that combat system last summer.  The company looked
like it was doing ok back then -- the same guy has an aerial combat 
system just like Lost Worlds... it features biplanes.  

I can't remember the name of the guy or his company right now, but I
still have the company literature somewhere.  I know that the company
is in California, though.

_Mark Hurst
mphurst@athena.mit.edu
From: jpg@bnr.co.uk (Jonathan P. Gibbons)
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
Subject: Re: The ultimate weapon
Date: 21 Aug 92 11:31:38 GMT
Organization: BNR Europe Ltd, London Rd, Harlow, Essex, CM19 9NA, U.K.


In article <14432@mindlink.bc.ca> Bruce_Harper@mindlink.bc.ca (Bruce Harper) writes:

>It may be possible to have quality offset by quantity.  Another approach is to
>have different "ultimate weapons".  For example, the armored knight was also
>dethroned by the Swiss pike, who were just as invincible as the low bowmen.
>Following along on that thought, which would be more effective would depend on
>terrain, weather and so on.

Had some more thoughts on this.  Counts for history as well as star wars.  
Seems to me that Ultimate weapons happen and work for a period.  During this
time the oposition is mainly crushed, some bands are forced into hard terrain
or scattered areas in the wilderness.  ie the ultimate weapon usually only 
works well in the 'set battle' knind or arena where the enemy can be made to
fight.  It still works in the out of the way places but it costs more in effort
and the people there tend to be more willing to drop everything and run to
aviod it - having learnt from past experience.

This continues for a while and then a tactic evolves that cancels the ultimate
weapon, or a new ultimate weapon is developed.  Adnittedly a rival empire far
away is the one to develope the next step rather than the rebel bands 
scrabbling about in the mud (eg Nukes).

Of course this doesn't help in war games which are short term.

As for the idea of making Long Bows expensive, I don't like!  In History the 
whole of the UK went in for them.  It became enthroned in law and culture and
so was not any more expensive.  As for running out of arrows, any general 
worth his salt makes sure that it won't happen until most of the enemy are 
accouted for.  As for cavalry being the solution, not convinced.  A long bow 
goes  =straight through armour at fairly long range (400m ? I forget but can 
find out) so I'd guess it can take out a little horsey.  On average the UK 
armies won during this period. 

Jonathan
--
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  With fearsome eyes and fiery breath the dragon burnt the girl to death
                    -- from "Too Late Saint George"
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
From: mathers@sibelius.trl.oz.au (Steven Mathers)
Subject: Re: Alive?
Reply-To: s.mathers@trl.oz.au
Organization: Telecom Research Labs, Melbourne, Australia
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 06:14:51 GMT

|> it, which is why it wasn't changed (one reason, at least).  Is there such a
|> thing as an "out of date" combat table?  How could it have been better, without
|> making the whole game more complex?  (This should not be taken as the start of
|> the second edition to A3R...)


Well, I havent seen A3R, but if you give some kind of description (if
that is possible) then you could get more people to comment on it.

As for other game design topics, I would be interested to know of any
scenarios that people think a game could be constructed from.
From: casper@vxcrna.cern.ch (CASPER,DAVI./PPE)
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
Subject: A3R CRT (was Re: Alive?)
Date: 19 Aug 92 10:35:00 GMT
Organization: European Organization for Nuclear Research, CERN
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <14353@mindlink.bc.ca>, Bruce_Harper@mindlink.bc.ca (Bruce Harper) writes...
> 
>In a yet-to-be-published review of Advanced Third Reich, the reviewer said the
>combat table in A3R was "rigid and out-of-date".  I didn't see any problem with
>it, which is why it wasn't changed (one reason, at least).  Is there such a
>thing as an "out of date" combat table?  How could it have been better, without
>making the whole game more complex?  (This should not be taken as the start of
>the second edition to A3R...)

Well, perhaps he wants some kind of step reduction.  The total elimination of
massive numbers of corps which occurs on an average turn in 3R and their
subsequent instantaneous reappearance at the end of the Unit Construction Phase
was explained in the designers notes of 1st edition Third Reich as simulating
not total annihilation and new units, but rather loss of combat effectiveness
followed by refitting behind the lines.  In this light I suppose it makes some
sense.

There is also the fact that it is a black/white kind of CRT: a 1-1 attack is
generally considered a desperation move if made with forces of any size,
whereas (especially in A3R with the softening of the 4 - 6 combo which led to
attacker elimination on a 2-1 attack before) a 2-1 attack involves essentially
no risk at all (you are 97% certain of getting the hex, the only question is how
much it will cost you).  A 3-2 column in between might have been a nice touch.
Since most units in A/3R are doubled on defense, this results in a kind of
compression of combat odds: raw factor ratios from 2:1 to 3.99:1 all fall on
same CRT column, whereas a lot of games would have several columns for this
range.  Of course, the counter-attack odds sometimes differentiate more finely,
but these are second-order effects.

Is there such a thing as an out-of-date CRT, well, yes, I'd say the old AH
CRT from the classic games like Afrika Korps, with its "A back 2" results
is a dinosaur.  This is especially true in a game of operational scale like AK,
where units cannot be easily replaced.  Attacking at 2-1 and seeing the entire
Afrika Korps wiped out without a trace sort of ruins that game.  Indeed, since
a large number of games come down to a 2-1 attack on Tobruk, some players joke
that they should just roll that attack at the start of the game and declare a
winner based on the result...  Despite these problems, I think this CRT was
used in the new Gettysburg edition.


Dave Casper
CERN - Geneva
casper@vxcrna.cern.ch
From: jgould@adobe.com (Jim Gould)
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
Subject: Combat: variables
Date: 12 Aug 92 16:01:58 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Adobe

Hello,

I want to create a Man to Man fantasy combat game.  Take place in a arena 
format, and rather than have the players plot movement, I want to give them 
different strategies to use.  I want each character to be different, STATS, 
and generated randomly.  

STATS:

STR -- Physical Strength
CON -- Endurance
DEX -- Swiftness
TRAIN -- Train New Skills
IQ -- Ability to adjust and control a match

Any other stats you think should be used?  How should weapons & armor play 
in this type of combat (maybe based on games that handled this well in the 
past or you just like).  I like some of the things the AH Gladiator does, 
and how should the rounds be broken down.

I have a rough outline, I would like to collect everyone's thoughts on this, 
and redistribute to those whom are interested.  So if you would care to reply 
to me jgould@adobe.com or post.

Thanks an Advance
Jim Gould

"I was their number one son, but they treated me like number two..." 
-- The Penguin
Newsgroups: rec.games.xtank.programmer
From: wk5w@luca.bme.Virginia.EDU (William Thang Katz)
Subject: Why no binaries?
Reply-To: wk5w@luca.bme.Virginia.EDU (William Thang Katz)
Organization: University of Virginia
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1992 21:58:05 GMT


Greetings again, XTANK followers.  I have been off
playing lots of netrek and losing all hope of passing
my boards.  But I must reask you:

WHY ARE THERE NO EXECUTABLE BINARIES AVAILABLE FOR XTANK?

It was very easy for me to start playing netrek.  All
I had to do was get an ftp site, copy over the compressed
executable for my sun4 (they had other machines there
as well), and I was up and experimenting.

By NOT having this available to Joe Public, you are
greatly narrowing the distribution of what is a great
game.  It would take only 20 minutes of a half a dozen
different people to submit their executable binaries to
the central depository and it would save lots of people
a world of trouble.

---

By the way, how is Gnat doing?  Has anyone fixed the
bugs I posted on the message passing system?  Gnat is
seriously hampered by losing dozens of messages at
a time.

Just my two cents.

Bill Katz
The Gnat-meister
Newsgroups: rec.games.xtank.programmer
From: mdycus@me64.lbl.gov (Mike Dycus)
Subject: Xtank
To: xtank@eng.umd.edu
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 92 13:51:34 PDT
Day: 		Tue Aug the 18th
Time: 		01:51 PM
Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.30]



 Hello all. I am coming to you concerning xtank.  When I "make" it make 
 gets to thread.c and goes wild. I am working on an HP 700s computer. 
 Everything before this has been going smoothly with minimal changes to code.
 Here is the error list that I get:

 cc: "thread.c", line 128: error 1529: Cannot select field of non-structure.
 cc: "thread.c", line 128: error 1554: Indirection must be through a pointer.
 cc: "thread.c", line 128: error 1549: Modifiable lvalue required for assignment
 operator.
 cc: "thread.c", line 130: error 1529: Cannot select field of non-structure.
 cc: "thread.c", line 130: error 1554: Indirection must be through a pointer.
 cc: "thread.c", line 130: error 1549: Modifiable lvalue required for assignment
 operator.
 cc: "thread.c", line 134: error 1529: Cannot select field of non-structure.
 cc: "thread.c", line 134: error 1549: Modifiable lvalue required for assignment
 operator.
 cc: "thread.c", line 135: error 1529: Cannot select field of non-structure.
 cc: "thread.c", line 137: error 1529: Cannot select field of non-structure.
 cc: "thread.c", line 139: error 1529: Cannot select field of non-structure.
 cc: "thread.c", line 139: error 1529: Cannot select field of non-structure.
 cc: "thread.c", line 139: error 1554: Indirection must be through a pointer.
 cc: "thread.c", line 139: error 1533: Illegal function call.
 cc: "thread.c", line 139: error 1529: Cannot select field of non-structure.
 cc: "thread.c", line 139: error 1549: Modifiable lvalue required for assignment
 operator.
 cc: "thread.c", line 141: error 1529: Cannot select field of non-structure.
 cc: "thread.c", line 144: error 1529: Cannot select field of non-structure.
 cc: "thread.c", line 210: error 1529: Cannot select field of non-structure.
 cc: "thread.c", line 210: error 1528: Subscript expression must combine pointer
 and integer.
 cc: "thread.c", line 210: error 1549: Modifiable lvalue required for assignment
 operator.
 cc: "thread.c", line 262: error 1529: Cannot select field of non-structure.
 cc: "thread.c", line 262: error 1563: Expression in if must be scalar.
 cc: "thread.c", line 270: error 1529: Cannot select field of non-structure.
 cc: "thread.c", line 272: error 1529: Cannot select field of non-structure.
 cc: "thread.c", line 272: error 1549: Modifiable lvalue required for assignment
 operator.
 cc: "thread.c", line 277: error 1529: Cannot select field of non-structure.
 cc: "thread.c", line 280: error 1529: Cannot select field of non-structure.
 *** Error code 1

 Stop.
 *** Error code 1

 Stop.

Would you please diagnose the problem? Thank you.
--

:           mdycus@me64.lbl.gov
From: barton@latcs1.lat.OZ.AU (The DayDreamer)
Newsgroups: rec.games.xtank.programmer
Subject: Re: FAQ?
Date: 13 Aug 92 01:51:00 GMT
Organization: What ORGANISATION???  This mess is total chaos!!!

In article <9222514.18922@mulga.cs.mu.OZ.AU>, davidjh@ecr.mu.oz.au (David_James_Earl HILDRETH) writes:
|> pcellik@axion.bt.co.uk (Peter SPHINX Cellik) writes:
|> >jhakumak@messi.uku.fi (Juhana Hakum{ki) writes:
|> >|> Could someone post the FAQ for Xtank?
|> >|> Either this group or e-mail will do just fine.
|> >|> Thanks.
|> >
|> >I would also like to get a copy of the FAQ.
|> >group or Email is fine.
|> 
|> I wouldn't mind one either.  Would group posting be worth it though?
|> 
|> Email is definitely OK.
|> 
|>     THINK OF IT AS EVOLUTION IN ACTION !   |  davidjh@munagin.ee.mu.oz.au
|> 										   |  davidjh@mundil.cs.mu.oz.au 
|> Y'know if people weren't here it'd be easy |  davidjh@home.beaumaris.peace 

How about a mailing list?


-- 

Douglas Barton - barton@latcs1.oz.au
		"My ,son.  Take for thyself another world,
 		 for that which I leave thee is too small..."

And your fortune for today --

		Reclaimer, spare that tree!
		Take not a single bit!
		It used to point to me,
		Now I'm protecting it.
		It was the reader's CONS
		That made it, paired by dot;
		Now, GC, for the nonce,
		Thou shalt reclaim it not.