HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jwb@capek.rdt.monash.edu.au (Jim Breen)
Subject: Re: what happen with 'wo'?
Organization: Monash University, Melb., Australia.
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 03:18:37 GMT

ecovingt@sdcc13.ucsd.edu (Maiko Covington) writes:

[Maiko's interesting article]
> 	(2) A few words with a long "o" sound make the long "o"
>	    sound by the kana "oo" instead of "ou" like usual. Some
>	    examples are "ookii", "ooi", and "tooi".
>	(3) A few words use the kana "du" (tsu with two dots) and
>	    "di" (chi with two dots) instead of "zu" and "ji",
>	    although they sound the same. These words are rarer.

These two irregularities in Japanese orthography are the bane of my life. 

The problem is that Hepburn romaji used in many popular dictionaries, e.g.
Nelson, does not distinguish between "oo" and "ou",
or between "zu" and "dzu". This means that many people who send me entries
for the EDICT dictionary file key in wrong kana. For example, I am
putting a lot of entries in by converting the entries in a German/Japanese
file that is available. Unfortunately almost every occurence of (2) and
(3) above is wrong in it. The same problem occurred with the original file from
which "jis1detl.lst" was created. It may be rare, but it is common enough to 
be annoying.

While I can see the point in the case of the tsu/dzu, where it usually
the result of a tsu being voiced where it occurs within a compound, I
see little justification for the oo/ou.
-- 
Jim Breen                           JIS:$B%8%`!!%V%j!<%s(J
Department of Robotics & Digital Technology. Monash University. 
PO Box 197 Caulfield East VIC 3145 Australia (ph) +61 3 573 2552 
(fax) +61 3 573 2345  AARNet/Internet:jwb@capek.rdt.monash.edu.au  
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
From: mako@uihepa.hep.uiuc.edu ("Makoto Shimojima, Univ of Tsukuba/CDF")
Subject: Re: language question
Reply-To: mako@uihepa.hep.uiuc.edu
Organization: High Energy Physics, University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign
Distribution: sci
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1992 23:45:58 GMT

>>I'm not sure, but wouldn't "kaeru jikan wo wakarimasu ka" be more
>			     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>	If you want to use this format, "kaeru jikan GA wakari masu ka" should
>	be better.

I am sure you meant "kaeru jikan WA wakari masu ka." "... ga..." is
as meaningless as "... wo..." (It sounds worse.)

>	                                                           I would
>	say "itsu kaeru ka wakari masu ka"

This probably is better, though I do not see anything wrong with
"kaeru jikan wa wakari masu ka." You can also omit the first "wa"
if you find it difficult to repeat it, and we often do, as in
"kaeru jikan wakaru?" which is more suited among friends.

					mako
From: ucbked@athena (Earl H. Kinmonth)
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
Subject: kermit for dos-v
Date: 23 Aug 1992 06:14:36 GMT
Organization: Centre for Japanese Studies, Univ. of Sheffield
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: athena.berkeley.edu

Has anyone or is anyone porting mskermit to dosv (to use the
Japanse fonts and fep supplied)?
-- 
earl h. kinmonth, centre for japanese studies, university of sheffield,
sheffield, england s10 2tn  jp1ek@sunc.sheffield.ac.uk
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
From: rto051@hippo.sps.mot.com (Chang Suk-Kyung)
Subject: Re: language question
Originator: root@mogate.sps.mot.com
Organization: TDO
Distribution: sci
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 07:48:00 GMT

In article <Bt3ooq.HqA@news.cso.uiuc.edu> mako@uihepa.hep.uiuc.edu writes:
>>>I'm not sure, but wouldn't "kaeru jikan wo wakarimasu ka" be more
>>			     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>	If you want to use this format, "kaeru jikan GA wakari masu ka" should
>>	be better.
>
>I am sure you meant "kaeru jikan WA wakari masu ka." "... ga..." is
>as meaningless as "... wo..." (It sounds worse.)

Huh?  I think I missed something here.  "Wo" is clearly wrong; "wakaru"
never takes "wo".  The normal "object"-marking particle for "wakaru" is
"ga", as in "Nihongo ga wakarimasen."  In this particular example, "ga"
(to me) sounds unnatural -- "wa" sounds much better -- but is it
incorrect?  Maybe a particle expert out there can help us out.
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
THIS IS A BORROWED ACCOUNT!          David Luke
   SEND ALL E-MAIL REPLIES TO:        ruser@hippo.sps.mot.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
From: ross@mecha.mit.edu (Ross Levinsky)
Subject: Help! How to configure the keyboard for uum?
Organization: ^$
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 22:38:10 GMT



Hi,

I recently built X11R5 under SunOS 4.1.2. I've got jserver running; I've
got uum working; BUT, I can't get the keyboard to work properly. When I
run uum in a kterm window, it complains that cvt_key_tbl.kt has illegal
entries, and I can't make anything work.

What do I do? How can I remap the uum control keys? How do I start a
conversion if I've got an English keyboard with no "kanji" key? What are
mod[1-5]? 

I'd try to solve these problems myself, but I don't know enough kanji to
be able to read the Japanese documents in less than a few weeks. :-)

Thanks in advance.


				Ross Levinsky
				ross@mecha.mit.edu

P.S. I'm also having problems with kinput2 and Canna, so if someone out
there has installed it already, PLEASE drop me a line!








Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
From: mikem@comspec.com (Mike Martinez)
Subject: Re: language question
Reply-To: mikem@comspec.com (Mike Martinez)
Organization: Comspec Communications - Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Distribution: sci
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1992 04:01:39 GMT
Followup-To: sci.lang.japan
Disclaimer2:  I don't profess any fluency or skill in Japanese...
Disclaimer:  Comspec Communications knows nothing of what I write.

bbs.lar@tsoft.sf-bay.org (Larry Greenfield) writes:

| Anyway, is "...shite imasu" right for "knowing"?

"...shite imasu" is the ongoing form of the verb "suru", "to do".  
What I think you want to use is the verb "shiru", "to know", which
conjugates in the above form to "...shitte imasu".  That slight
difference, and the resultant changed pronunciation, are very
important in getting the correct intended meaning across.

| What I'm trying to say, is... 
| If I want to say "do you know what time he will return", would
| "kaeru jikan wo shite imasu ka" be ok? (do you know the return time)? For 
| some reason, this doesn't look right now, but I thought that was how it 
| was said.

I'm not sure, but wouldn't "kaeru jikan wo wakarimasu ka" be more
suitable in this situation?  (Actually, they both sound awkward to
me - there has to be a better way to phrase this question.)

|   Also, what is the word for "everybody"?  (subete no hito?  Hmm, isn't 
| there a single word?)  As in "everybody drives fast", or "almost 
| everybody likes to go to the beach", etc.

Wouldn't "minna" or the more polite "minna-san" do for "everybody"?
--
The dreamers of the day are dangerous men,  | M. Martinez -- mikem@comspec.com
for they may dream their dream with open    |---------------------------------
eyes, to make it possible.                  | UUCP:  ...uunet!mnetor!
                           - T. E. Lawrence |        lsuc!comspec!mikem
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
From: db6j+@ANDREW.CMU.EDU ("Douglas S. Brashear")
Subject: Re: GENJI MONOGATARI
X-Unparsable-Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 08: 50:11 TZONE
Reply-To: NIHONGO@mitvma.mit.edu
Organization: The Internet
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 12:50:25 GMT

On 19-Aug-92 in GENJI MONOGATARI
user Rafael Santos@BITNET.CC. writes:
>I want to read it, but just to get some feelings about OLD Japanese
>literature.
>If somebody have some comments, ideas, suggestions, please...
>
>Rafael.

well, I am still reading it (havent had too much time lately, and its
long)...I think its great!  I love the story and the style used is well
suited for the novel.
Are you planning on reading the entire novel?
DOUG
db6j+@andrew.cmu.edu
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
From: jeff@is.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp (Jeff McAffer)
Subject: IBM stores in Tokyo?
Reply-To: jeff@is.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp
Organization: University of Tokyo, Good Times Department.
Distribution: sci
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 03:15:57 GMT


This is not exactly the right forum but given the recent response to
Mac price enquires I am hoping I can get some help with this.  

As many of you may know, IBM PCs are not really popular in Japan.
Even worse are ISA bus PC-Compatibles (clones).  I am looking for some
decent PC clone capable stores in Tokyo.  Any place I can buy things
like an IDE hard drive or a real bus mouse. (these examples are based
on recent attempts to find such items to no avail)(ended up importing
them) This is mostly a hardware problem as most software that will
work on real IBMs will work on clones (note, I said most).  There are
a few stores that have some stuff but they are highly over priced and
have little stock.  It seems that usually they mail order from the US
as the orders come in.  A perfectly reasonable thing for low volume
items but I can order faster and cheaper than they can.  I am looking
for anything reasonable but preferably a high volume
mail-order/discount type place.  STEP is ok but they have very little
stock.  (Quoted 30 days and twice the US$ price for a 400MB hard
drive).

Thanks for your time and answers.

--
atode, |m         -- What happened to all my disk space?
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
From: colric@tartarus.uwa.edu.au (Colin Richards)
Subject: Re: `fluency in Japanese'
Organization: University of Western Australia
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 03:42:07 GMT

Mark Crispin <mrc@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU> writes:

>The problem with Mark Rowe's definition [`anyone who can converse in Japanese
>with an average native Japanese person at a normal rate of speech and in a
>smoothly flowing manner...where each understands what is being said would be
>fluent in Japanese'] is that it is too easy to stretch that definition to
>cover a multitude of individuals who are merely capable of making themselves
>understood.

If you are capable of making yourself understood in a smooth flowing
manner then you are fluent.  This does not mean that you speak with no
errors at all or that you sound like a native speaker.

>Someone who can speak a kind of pidgin Japanese could speak `in a smoothly
>flowing manner' and `be understood' but can not be considered to be fluent in
>Japanese.  Such a person is fluent in pidgin, which is a different thing
>entirely.  My experience suggests that many self-proclaimed `fluent in
>Japanese' individuals are in fact fluent speakers of pidgin.

and how would you know if you are not fluent yourself?

>Here are some of the things I consider important:
> . Can you hold an *extended* conversation on the telephone (long enough to
>   run out of pattern sentences and having to compose your own) without the
>   other person having a clue that you aren't a native speaker?

If you say more than 2 pattern sentences to someone then they will know
immediately that you are not a native speaker.(one will probably give it
away!) 
That is if your accent hasn't given you away already.  

> . Can you hold a conversation without being consciously aware of what
>   language you are speaking, and in particular have your partner switch the
>   language several times in the course of the conversation without you being
>   consciously aware of the switch?

> . Can you read a newspaper or technical report?

You don't have to be a fluent speaker to read!

>These are some of the things I consider to be the earmark of fluency, and what
>I think only a handful of people can accomplish.

I don't agree!!


Colin Richards
From: Thomas_Dicorcia.ISO-SV@XEROX.COM
Subject: Aldus Freehand, Lotus 1-2-3, with kanji under KanjiTalk?
Reply-To: Thomas_Dicorcia.ISO-SV@xerox.com
Organization: The Internet
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 21:58:19 GMT

Hi everyone,

I have Rainer (Daeschler)`s excellent summary of what software works with Kanji
input under KanjiTalk on a Mac, and what doesn`t work so well.

According to that summary, kanji characters entered in MacDraw will overlap.  I
guess that`s true with MacDraw Pro as well?  How about Aldus Freehand?

Again, according to the summary, Microsoft Excell works fine with Kanji.  How
about the new Lotus 1-2-3 for Mac?

Any improvements re:kanji in the latest WordPerfect or Word for Mac?

Has anyone updated, added to Rainier`s summary?  The version I have includes:

        1. MS-Word 4.0
        2. MS-FILE 2.0
        3. Filemaer II
        4. MacDraw
        5. MacPaint
        6. Draw 5.0 (Share ware in info-mac:apple-draw-50.hqx)
        7. Nisus 3.05 (Current:3.06)
        8. WodrPerfect 4.1
        9. Excel 2.2
        10. SuperCard 1.5
        11. Canvas 2.0
        12. WinText
        13. WriteNow 2.0 and 2.2
        14. SmallTalk/V

Thanks in advance.

-- Tom DiCorcia
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
From: mark@hpcvxmsr.cv.hp.com (Mark Rowe)
Subject: Re: kanji of the day #29
Reply-To: mark@hpcvlx.cv.hp.com
Organization: UDT-CV (ITO)
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 17:40:49 GMT

In article <1992Aug13.082150.17709@alf.uib.no>, edmtl@alf.uib.no (Thor Legvold) writes:
...
> Does anyone have a table/book/reference to the radicals used as building
> blocks for kanji.  I remember some postings saying that it was easier to
> figure out new kanji and remember old with a thourough understanding of
> radicals, and anyway I'm often curious when I learn a new kanji what the
> radicals (or elements) mean.
...
I have not had the opportunity to peruse a large variety of Japanese
reference books, so others may be able to give a more definitive answer;
however, I have found Kodansha's Compact Kanji Guide to be an excellent
reference work.  The 1945 jooyoo kanji characters are presented indexed
by radical with the radical arranged by stroke count.  Each margin gives
a list of the radicals with the specific radical for that page highlighted.
This has allowed me with very little practice to quickly find the kanji
I am looking for.  The inside back cover gives a complete list of all of
the radicals and there is good explanatory material in the front of the
book on kanji, radicals, ON/KUN pronounciations, etc.  The book also has
tables for looking up kanji based on pronounciation or stroke count.

	Kodansha's Compact Kanji Guide
	ISBN# 4-7700-1553-4   (1991)

	Kodansha America, Inc.
	114 Fifth Avenue, 18th floor
	New York, NY 10011
	(212) 727-6460

	phone orders: (800) 631-8571  (VISA, AmEx, MC)
	$24.00 in the Fall/Winter 1991-92 catalog

Mark Rowe*            email: mark@hpcvlx.cv.hp.com
Hewlett Packard       voice: (503) 750-3246
Corvallis, OR         FAX:   (503) 750-3788

* not affiliated with Kodansha International other than as a customer.
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
From: jbm@hal.trl.OZ.AU (Jacques Guy)
Subject: OTAKU is Chinese, not Altaic
Organization: Telecom Research Labs, Melbourne, Australia
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 00:45:00 GMT


I missed that discussion completely, as it's only
a post on soc.culture.turkish that caught my
attention, in which the original poster, one
Kutluk Ozguven said he had had nothing but
positive responses here about otaku being
related to Modern Turkish odag "tent".
Oh? Isn't otaku the ubiquitous familiar
women's speech o- prefixed to the japanese
pronunciation of a chinese character that
means dwelling anymore? 

At this rate, I'll claim that there is a 
French word in Japanese: arquer, which
means to "walk". Yes, aruku, and it's
pronounced "arke", too. 

And a Tahitian word: ana. Yes, exactly
the same meaning. 

Did you people *really* all answered "yes,	
otaku could well be of Turkic origin", or
is that chap making it up?

Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
From: jwb@capek.rdt.monash.edu.au (Jim Breen)
Subject: Fluency in foreign languages
Organization: Monash University, Melb., Australia.
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 05:21:24 GMT

I am tempted to say that on the basis of some of the definitions that 
have been posted, there are probably only a couple of dozen Americans 
fluent in English.

But then it would be needlessly provocative, so I won't.

-- 
Jim Breen                           JIS:$B%8%`!!%V%j!<%s(J
Department of Robotics & Digital Technology. Monash University. 
PO Box 197 Caulfield East VIC 3145 Australia (ph) +61 3 573 2552 
(fax) +61 3 573 2345  AARNet/Internet:jwb@capek.rdt.monash.edu.au
From: djohnson@cs.ucsd.edu (Darin Johnson)
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
Subject: Iroha  (was Re: what happen with 'wo'?)
Date: 13 Aug 92 18:26:57 GMT
Organization: =CSE Dept., U.C. San Diego

Well, here's an example containing "we" and "wi".  It is the
"iroha", an old buddhist(?) poem containing all the kana.
This is very similar to the American "a-b-c" song in a sense.

(you may notice an 'iroha' sign on the wall of the Tendou doujou
in Ranma 1/2)

(romaji)
 
  i ro ha ni ho he to
  chi ri nu ru wo
  wa ka yo ta re so
  tsu ne na ra mu
  u wi no o ku ya ma
  ke hu ko e te
  a sa ki yu me mi shi
  we hi mo se su

(jis)

   $@$$(J  $@$m(J  $@$O(J  $@$K(J  $@$[(J  $@$X(J  $@$H(J

   $@$A(J  $@$j(J  $@$L(J  $@$k(J  $@$r(J

   $@$o(J  $@$+(J  $@$h(J  $@$?(J  $@$l(J  $@$=(J

   $@$D(J  $@$M(J  $@$J(J  $@$i(J  $@$`(J

   $@$&(J  $@$p(J  $@$N(J  $@$*(J  $@$/(J  $@$d(J  $@$^(J

   $@$1(J  $@$U(J  $@$3(J  $@$((J  $@$F(J

   $@$"(J  $@$5(J  $@$-(J  $@$f(J  $@$a(J  $@$_(J  $@$7(J

   $@$q(J  $@$R(J  $@$b(J  $@$;(J  $@$9(J

-- 
Darin Johnson
djohnson@ucsd.edu
    Where am I?  In the village...  What do you want?  Information...
From: sdwyer@AGSM.UCLA.EDU (Steve Dwyer)
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
Subject: Re: Gomen-nasai
Date: 13 Aug 92 02:35:59 GMT
Reply-To: NIHONGO@mitvma.mit.edu
Organization: The Internet

> ... I encountered a number of reactions when I asked for directions
> from passers-by.
>
> 	I can only draw one conclusion from this experience:  people are people
> the world over and they'll react to situations in various ways.  Social con-
> ditioning alone cannot explain it.
>
> 	By the way, I had a similar experience in the Soviet Union a few years
> before the one in Japan and I drew the same conclusion then.

Just don't try it in L.A or N.Y.
       -- Just kidding; there are even some nice people in these places.
From: hcheng@Auspex.COM (Howard Cheng)
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
Subject: Re: GENJI MONOGATARI
Date: 21 Aug 92 01:00:08 GMT
Organization: Auspex Systems, Santa Clara

I'm assuming the original poster is asking about good Japanese literature.
My recommendations are Akutagawa Ryunosuke, Natsume Soseki, and Tanizaki
Junichiro, both in translation and in the original Japanese.

h.
From: masseyj@NOVAVAX.NOVA.EDU (James Massey)
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
Subject: Re: GENJI MONOGATARI
Date: 19 Aug 92 23:20:33 GMT
Reply-To: NIHONGO@mitvma.mit.edu
Organization: The Internet

Other "monogatari"?  For what purpose?  To discover the feel of different
Japanese eras?  Different language styles?  This would make answering the
question a lot easier...

Jim Massey
Nova University
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
From: smittie@CSULB.EDU (Smittie)
Subject: Re: Mourinng customs
Reply-To: NIHONGO@mitvma.mit.edu
Organization: The Internet
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 01:12:22 GMT

You should also check into the film "Funeral" ("Ososhiki") which is by the same
director who did Tompopo. The film makes fun of Japanese mourning customs but
that could be informative as well. There is an English subtitled version
available.

smittie
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
From: rick@rahul.net (John D'Elia)
Subject: Type1/TT Japanese fonts for Mac?
Organization: SDF-Macross
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 00:31:55 GMT

I'm a 3rd year Japanese student at San Jose State University and I'm interested
in obtaining Japanese fonts (TT or type 1) for use on the Macintosh (English system)  I do run Kanjitalk 6.0.7, but it only has bitmapped fonts.  I'd rather have the fonts be under English 7.0.  Can anyone help?  Thanks.



--
 Internet: rick@bolero.rahul.net   | Best    Gato: You! have they loaded the
 SnailMail: Why bother?            | 0083          bazooka with the warhead? 
 *Nihongo o hanaseba, hanashiyou!* | Scene   Fedies: Y-yes sir! 
         ** Zieg Jion! **          | !!!!!   Gato: Good, then I'll test it!  
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
From: mako@uihepa.hep.uiuc.edu ("Makoto Shimojima, Univ of Tsukuba/CDF")
Subject: Re: language question
Reply-To: mako@uihepa.hep.uiuc.edu
Organization: High Energy Physics, University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign
Distribution: sci
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1992 17:42:26 GMT

> | If I want to say "do you know what time he will return", would
> | "kaeru jikan wo shite imasu ka" be ok? (do you know the return time)? For 
> | some reason, this doesn't look right now, but I thought that was how it 
> | was said.
>
> I'm not sure, but wouldn't "kaeru jikan wo wakarimasu ka" be more
> suitable in this situation?  (Actually, they both sound awkward to
> me - there has to be a better way to phrase this question.)

"Kaeru jikan wa wakarimasu ka?" would be appropriate in most cases.
"Kaeru jikan wo shitte imasu ka?" on the other hand is a bit strange
in that you are not really interested in knowing if the person knows
the time; if he could find it out (and you want him to find out if he
does not, don't you?) that would be what you are after... In other
words, by "wakarimasu ka" you are asking him to find out what time he
would return.

> |   Also, what is the word for "everybody"?
>
> Wouldn't "minna" or the more polite "minna-san" do for "everybody"?

That would be "mina-san" or "mina-sama." "Minna" is a colloqial form
of "mina."
						mako
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
From: cardin@vlsi.polymtl.ca (Daniel Cardin)
Subject: Re: OTAKU is Chinese, not Altaic
Organization: Ecole Polytechnique de Montreal
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1992 20:05:54 GMT

jbm@hal.trl.OZ.AU (Jacques Guy) writes:
: At this rate, I'll claim that there is a 
: French word in Japanese: arquer, which
: means to "walk". Yes, aruku, and it's
: pronounced "arke", too. 

"arquer" huh? hmmm I as a native french speaker never heard of it
meaning to walk but rather to bend, to curve or more appropriately to arch.
Maybe some french slang from France ? I'm very curious as where that word
could be used.

Sorry for letting that post get out of the japanese study context :)

Danny