From: barnejd@wkuvx1.bitnet
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Proofs of the Bible (Long, but filled with *in*formation)
Date: 12 Nov 92 19:30:23 CST
Organization: Western Kentucky University, Bowling Green, KY

In article <lg4uj5INN7oa@news.bbn.com>, ncramer@bbn.com (Nichael Cramer) writes:
> barnejd@wkuvx1.bitnet writes:
>>  [...]  Let's
>>compare them to the New Testament - 24,633 total MSS and 5338 complete MSS!
>> [...]  In addition, these date to within 40-300 years of the autograph. 
 
> Pretty impressive.  At least three major errors in only two sentences.  ;)

"Sez you," to quote a truly staggering Bible critic. :+)
 
> 1] The total number of *all* greek manuscripts of the NT --down to the
> 18th[!!] century-- is on the order of 5000[*].  Moreover this number
> includes _all_ documents with any material from the NT including very small
> fragments and source that are not, strictly speaking, from the NT (like
> lectionaries).

Can't find the original source, but here's a breakdown that's close to
that number:

NEW TESTAMENT
    3145 or so handwritten copies
       85 papyri, 268 unicals (written in all capitals), 2792
       miniscules (all small letters)
    2193 Greek MSS in which text is arranged in lectionary form
    25 ostraca (Metzger, _The Text of the New Testament_, 33) - pieces
      of unglazed pottery
    8000 or so Latin versions
    2000 or so Syriac, Coptic, Gothicm, Armenian, Georgian, Ethiopic,
       Slavonic, and Arabic versions

       (Greenlee, Zondervan Pictoral Encyclopedia of the Bible, V:697)
       (Fee, _Biblical Criticism_, 128)

OLD TESTAMENT
    Prior to 1890 - 731 Hebrew MSS published (Geisler & Nix, _From God
      to Us_, 139) 
    1890 - Cairo Geneza documents discovered - 10,000 Biblical MSS and
       fragments
    1947 - Dead Sea Scrolls discovered

I believe that justifies the ~25000 total MSS claim.
  Note that this does not include patristic quotes (Irenaeus,
Tertullian, etc).  Sir David Dalrymple claimed to have found all but
11 verses of the NT from the 2nd and 3rd century (Geisler & Nix, 157).

> 2] If we restrict ourselves to the first "300 years", the total number of
> manuscripts is *much* smaller.  I don't have the numbers here in my office,
> but I doubt that the total would reach 100.  Furthermore, the vast majority
> of these early "manuscripts" are little more than fragments.  It is only
> well into the fourth century that we get any complete NTs --and only one or
> two of those.

  * There are two full manuscripts from the fourth century.  Fragments
     date back further (one bit of a papyrus codex of John 18:31-33,
     37 dates to 130 AD).
  * As I said in my original post, no one disputes the authenticity of
     the works of, say, Thucydides - his _History of Thucydides_ is
     availible to us from 8 MSS, the earliest of which dates to about
     1200 years after his death.  The Bible must be reviewed for its
     authenticity just like any other work.  If the classical scholars
     can confirm the works of Thucydides, how much more reliable is
     the Bible?

> 3] At the other end of your range, it is unlikely that we have any
> manuscripts from as early 40 years.

     This depends on when John was written.  The John Rylands fragment
(AD 125-135, mentioned above) could well have been from within ~40
years.

>   o The earliest fragment of the canonical[**] gospels that we have is a
>     palm-sized fragment of John (known by the name p52).  A proposed dating
>     for this fragment places it at about 125CE (which admittedly _would_
>     place it at about 40 yrs from autograph) however most datings place it
>     at somewhat later in the 2nd century.

The John Rylands fragment, commonly dated from AD 125-135.

>   o Other than p52 there are probably only three other manuscripts that
>     have *any* claim to having been copied before or about 200 --and
>     certainly not much earlier-- and these, too, are fragments.

  The Bodmer papyri, from 2nd to 4th century.
  Chester Beatty Papyri - 3rd century.
  Codex Sinaiticus - 4th century.
  Codex Vaticanus - 4th century.
  Latin Vulgate - 382-385 by Jerome from "ancient Greek manuscripts"

  Once again, these plus the writings of chrurch fathers, the
fragments, etc. only serve to vindicate the Bible's accuracy.

>  [* For more specific numbers, and break-downs according to type, etc.
>     please see the books on the text of the NT by either Bruce Metzger or
>     Kurt and Barbara Aland.]

>  [** Fragments exist of a non-canonical gospel --the so-called Egerton
>     Gospel-- which have been dated to roughly the same time as p52, and 
>     possibly slightly earlier.]

-Jeff
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