From: altar@beaufort.sfu.ca (Ted Wayn Altar)
Subject: Re: Rich & Michael
Organization: Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 15:03:07 GMT

moser@sw.stratus.com (Tom Moser) writes:
. . . 
> BUT I also read other posts too and I glean quite a bit
>of information from them. I have to say that Ted Feuerbach's posts are
>usually very fair, informative and reasonable. Mike Traub's posts are also
>often informative but face it pal - you are being EXTREMELY unreasonable
>now.

Let's be fair, as you suggest.  Now, I have yet to see one informative
posting from Ted Feuerbach about vegetarianism.  Do you have the right
Ted?  I am sure that Ted Feuerbach posts informative messages on
other conferences, but I don't remember seeing one pertaining to
vegetarianism on this conference.  With respect to Michael Traub, 
however, there is no doubt whatsoever that Michael has been 
assiduous and exemplary in his helpfful postings of ORIGINAL recipes,
INFORMED advice about vegetarianism, and FAIR comment to those
defensive omnivores who have nothing better to do then quibble and
make rude remarks to vegetarianism on this vegetarian conference.

B
>> [stuff deleted]
>> 
>> >I'd like to know more about
>> >Vegetarianism and it's variations (isn't that what this newsgroup is all
>> >about?) and hear less self serving, petty holier than thou drivel.
                           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^     
Michael justly responds:>> 
>> Why lie? It's pretty obvious that you are not interested in vegetarianism.
>> You have been sucking recipes off this newsgroup for over two years but
>> you are still an eater of animal corpses.
>> 

Tom Moser ignores what Michael is responding to:
>Does that phrase 'holier than thou' occur to you when reading this.
                   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Here's a good example of the kind of rude and non-discursive remarks
that are repeatedly thrown at vegetarians.  We just happen to
have damn good evidence and reasoned belief about the health benefits, 
the reduced ecological impact, and the ethical advantages of eliminating
animal products from one's diet.  It would seem that some stubborn
omnivores are more interested in dismissing the empirical evidence and
rational arguments by insulting vegetarians as on a "holier than thou"
crusade. 

Is it not interesting that if we did not practice what we rationally believe
is the better eating regimen we would than be called hypocrites?  Because
we DO practice what we believe, we are than dismissed as "holier than
thou" cranks.  And then you expect us to genuflect and tug foreluck to
such callow and unfair remarks!  No, Michael Traub's remark is fair
comment to what is an very insulting and unsubstantiated remark!


> I also
>eat animal corpses - and I am interested in vegetarianism. No conflict
>occurs in my mind - perhaps you should be a little more tolerant.

Fine, then maybe you should illustrate this good advice and
stop deriding vegetarians, but politely listen, ask honest questions,
and make reasoned and informed remarks.  After all, we are providing
you with good recipes and information and in turn all we ask is a 
little respect and common curtesy.



>> >If 
>> >there is anyone out there who would care to continue to enlighten me, 
>> >I'll keep reading this newsgroup.  If not, then all of you deserve the
>> >abuse that you constantly claim to suffer and your way of life has
>> >nothing of benefit to offer.
>> 
>> The vegetarians/vegans in this newsgroup are not here to try and
>> educate close minded people like yourself. If you really insist
>> on snarfing recipes then go ahead, but try and keep your obvious
>> dislike of vegetarians and vegans out of this newsgroup.
>> 

>Don't let it worry you Ted. The Omnivores in this newsgroup and probably
>most of the reasonable posters and lurkers have no objection to your
>snarfing, posting and discussing. Besides you have now been given 
 ^^^^^^^^

Exactly, that is all we have, mere "snarfing" and not informed and
intelligent information.  Your standards of reasoned debate do need
to be re-examined in light of what might well be a needy defensiveness
of an omnivore practice, a practice that really cannot be rationally
defended.  So, instead of intelligently addressing the facts and
rational arguments, our defensive omnivores instead take recourse to
"snarfing" at vegetarians. 

To attack the person instead of the arguments is a very transparent 
ploy, one that makes my point about some omnivores being defensive and
maybe prone to a kind of self-deception where they dismiss others for that
which they themselves are at fault.



>dispensation to snarf by the Almighty one himself - so you can rest
                              ^^^^^^^^^^^^
>easy tonite. 
>Just to make it clear - I do not dislike vegetarians or vegans but I do
>REALLY dislike self rightous bigots.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^    

That's right, publically demean one of our most prolific and helpful vegan
posters as a "self-righteous bigot".   This is certainly NOT fair and 
intelligent comment, and it evinces the very thing you would decry against.  

Now, if all you want is recipes, then how about posting some original
vegetarian ones of your own, or at the very least how about thanking
vegetarians like Michael Traub who do post ORIGINAL recipes.  

I am personally getting tired of the interminable quibbles and even
private HATE-mail from defensive omnivores for my postings.  A simply
thank-you once in a while instead of destructive "snarfing" would do
more to raise tolerance and fair debate then a self-serving panegyric
to those who contribute nothing but "snarfing" and insults on this
conference.

                                                 ted