From: modman@liveware.com
Subject: Re: Response to accusations (LONG: From the moderator)
Keywords: SELF PROCLAIMED GOOFIE DUNKARD
Reply-To: modman@liveware.com
Organization: Liveware Corporation   Fort Collins, CO.  USA.
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 17:16:41 GMT

In article <199209022144.AA06898@cnam.cnam.fr> eronald@CNAM.CNAM.FR (Edmund  
Ronald) writes:
> Well, it's getting on midnight, I've just had an excellent bottle of
> Burgundy, and thus feel in the right spirit :) to rejoin this forum.

Well being drunk and obnoxious in public is against the law 
here in the US.  What about the rest of the world? ;')

> Bluntly put, todd, moderator of c.s.n.announce is against prices. No 
> matter that he be told that prices are information, that people don't
> want to bother emailing or phoning companies to get them, and that 
> companies are fed up with answering the one-line messages that query
> for the magic dollar figures...

I speak for myself.  YOU DO NOT SPEAK FOR ME.  I have not stated my 
personal feelings about this issue in public, and will NOT for it
is in conflict of interest with regards to this issue.  I have
heard/understand quite a few sides of this issue, and I don't think you
are one to tell me what I can and can't comprehend.  I do understand
the ramifications of not including prices.  I do not do it without
seriously contemplating the content of the post.

> Todd has his arguments, and quite a few people no doubt share his
> views. I and about 40 other people hold the opposite view, and would 
> like todd to hold a vote. He says "no vote on pris". He says, "you
> may vote on chucking me out as moderator, but nothing else".

I don't have any arguments.  I have reasoning.  I am not personally or
professional biased one way or the other.  I am trying to find a
reasonable solution that will help most if not all the readers of
c.s.n.announce.  I have not stated what a vote can and can't do,
I have tried to state that LIKELY a vote will do '...'.  If I have
stated otherwise I apologize.

If you ever read news.* groups you will know that likely the only thing
you can do to a moderator is toss them or unmoderate the group.
Unfortunately for some, it does come down to this type of radical action.
I for  one do not think we need to go that far.  I am open and I am
trying to listen to each persons views and opinions (minus
the 'go eat cow pucks' that I get every once in a while ;'<.

A call for a vote of a moderated group is not a good idea, since the
moderator is ultimately the one who makes changes happen in a group
(unless they are no longer around to make the changes).  So what
you can do is toss me (if you wish as a group of readers) or you
can wait patiently like the rest of the world and see what happens
and what I do about this issue.  THIS IS NOT MY FULLTIME JOB.

As for a change in policy it can happen.  The charter doesn't state
anything about prices being included or not.  I have included the
group charter from the USENET GODS as stated back
when the c.s.n.announce group was formed.  Pascal enforced a policy
(which at this time I continue to enforce) which I inherited and kinda
feel I owe it to the group to keep with policy until there is solid evidence
of a needed change.  I am gathering as much evidence as possible.
Here is a thanks to all the nice and thoughtful people with comments
about what the group should and shouldn't be/do/become)...  THANKS!!!
 
> I think there is little reason to want to throw out todd as moderator of
> c.s.n.a, as he's doing a good job, apart from being a trifle obstinate
> and unresponsive on this matter.

Thanks, but I am a volunteer, so tossing someone doing a job
for free is kinda dumb.  I resent your statement of obstinance
and challenge it with the fact I have spent 20+ hours
this week alone talking and emailin' with people about this issue.
The week before it was about 25+ hours.

I have talked to people of the moderators mail list, as well
as full blown conversations with the USENET GODS and readers on this issue.
So please, try and know the facts before you go spouting off about
how I am handling this issue.  

> So let's find a creative solution- Here are some:
> 1) Archive the posts with prices added.
> 2) Someone (eg. the company announcing the product) posts the pricing
>    info on c.s.n.m - that group can take the added bandwith!
> 3) We create a mailing list and FAQ for price info, with price of EVERY piece
>    of NeXT software or hardware- there ain't that many :-(
> 4) We hold a vote on creating a group for commercial posts. If Todd's
>    right than some sites won't receive it- too bad. If Todd's wrong then
>    we'll find out in a hurry whethyer we really need c.s.n.a :-)

Some of this section is good.  I like to have ideas so we can contemplate
a solution with the facts and needs of the group.  I don't agree
with #4.  I have openly outlined why I think another news group
is not such a good idea in a previous post on this issue (I think 2
days ago)...  Summary:  cross posting, validation, overhead is
all a pain and really a waste of bandwidth and your time.

I highly disagree with posting announcements with prices to
comp.sys.next.misc, since cross posting in general is a bad idea,
and for the most part serve as an annoyance rather than
informational to the readers of USENET news.

[ tangential thread beginning ]

There are companies which cross post partially due to the
history of c.s.n.announce, and partially due to them being pushy
and kind of stupid/ignorant.  As a USENET subscriber, I disapprove
of this practice.  I also disapprove of RTF postings of people
in restaurants.  It just isn't informational, it is hype.  Remember,
some people/companies can't discern between information and hype.

[ fork completed and working hard ]

The only reason I cross posted the original C.S.N.A questionaire #1
is to get all individuals who had a vested interest in talking
about this issue involved.  Now we are in the right forum.

[ parent is dying ]

As for pricing, it does belong somewhere.  But if it is pricing alone
without informational content (price wars, discounts for the sake
of discounts [ie increased market share]) then it belongs not on
the net at all, but in /dev/null...  This type of end of summer
price panic hit three companies that I can recollect (maybe more).
Without names, it just doesn't belong here.  They can spend their
bucks on direct advertising.  During those days, the Hype/Info
ratios where very, very high.

[ child just croked ]

> I think we ought to try all of the above 1-4 !! Please bring your
> ideas to this forum, publicly. 

Well of course you do.  They are your ideas are they not. ;')

Well Edmund.  Here you go.  I have been brought to the public
light, maybe for a public lynchin'.  Now, lets keep this thing a
little more reasonable.
 
> Edmund.
> 
> -- London graffitto: Beer can't be bought, only borrowed. --

I welcome email on this issue.  Please email me at <modman@liveware.com>
and I will do my best to assist you.

I assure all of you a final (and highly professional
version) c.s.n.announce poll will be submitted to all groups
by the end of next week.  It will be a Y & N type, with clearly
(better than the 3:00 am version submitted 1.5 weeks ago) stated
objectives as well as information to help you decide what you
would like to see in C.S.N.A.  The questionaire was kinda
like a CFD (Call for Discussion) and the Poll is the vote of
a CFV...  Some may not be able to destinguish between
this poll and a vote.  Well, the poll is not maditory.  I have chosen
to perform this so you will get what you want.  Whatever that turns
out to be.  Second, I will do my best to see to it that the majority
get what they want.  The rules for polling will be included.

I have a list of a few people who stated they would like to help
shape the content/accuracy/reliability of the Poll.  I still need others
to review it and comment on the content.  Please submit any help requests
to <modman@liveware.com>...


Regards,

Todd Nathan
csna modman


Addendum:  Warning, some of the following information may be
dis/advantageous to your health.  Proceed with care.


Reference #1 (Comp.Sys.NeXT.Announce Charter)
------------
comp.sys.next.announce is a moderated newsgroup which passed its vote for
creation by 354:40 as reported in news.announce.newgroups on 2 July 1991.

Group submission address:  csn-announce@media.mit.edu
Moderator contact address: csn-announce-request@media.mit.edu (Pascal Chernais)

For your newsgroups file:
comp.sys.next.announce	Announcements related to the NeXT computer system.

The charter, culled from the call for votes:

This group is for NeXT computer related
announcements.  This includes, but is not limited to user group
meeting announcements, new products relating specifically to the NeXT
machine, and other information announcements (such as the FAQ).  This
group will be moderated.


Reference #2 (Webster definition) ;')
------------
drunk ard \'dren-kerd\ n
(1530)
:one who is habitually drunk 

syn    bibber, ||bloat, ||blotter, boozehound, boozer, drunk, fuddler, guzzler,  
inebriate, lush, ||lusher, rumdum, rummy, ||rumpot, ||shicker, soak, soaker,  
sot, sponge, stiff, swillbowl, swiller, tippler, toper, tosspot 


Reference #3 (Webster definition) ;'<
------------
ob sti nate \'a b-ste-net\ adj
[ME, fr. L obstinatus, pp. of obstinare to be resolved, fr. ob- in the way +  
-stinare (akin to stare to stand)]
(14c)
1: perversely adhering to an opinion, purpose, or course in spite of reason,  
arguments, or persuasion
2: not easily subdued, remedied, or removed


Reference #4 (Webster definition) ;')
------------
pro claim \pro -'kla m, pre-\ vt
[ME proclamen, fr. MF or L; MF proclamer, fr. L proclamare, fr. pro- before +  
clamare to cry out   more at PRO-, CLAIM]
(15c)
1a: to declare publicly, typically insistently, proudly, or defiantly and in  
either speech or writing: ANNOUNCE
b: to give outward indication of: SHOW
2: to declare or declare to be solemnly, officially, or formally  proclaim an  
amnesty   proclaim the country a republic 
3: to praise or glorify openly or publicly: EXTOL
syn see DECLARE 

Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.misc