HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: timsmith@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Timothy Smith)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: On Power
Date: 11 Sep 92 17:37:27 GMT
Organization: The David Taylor Model Basin

pharvey@quack.sac.ca.us (Paul Harvey) writes of Machiavelli:
>
>Hmm, seems kind of um, dogmatic? But I do have the book for you, it's
>called The Prince by Machiavelli, Mentor PB. Someone with your attitude
>needs this book.

[editor's notes to _The Prince_ deleted]

>So if you want POWER, there is THE recipe. If you are interested in what
>and how our government is doing to you and how you are being manipulated
>by our supposed democracy, the best government that money can buy, this
>book will tell you all. There is the power, but you must remember that
>it is your obligation to do the right thing.

A couple of relevant points:

1.  Despite the autocratic, amoral tone of _The Prince_, you should
    realize that Machiavelli spent his professional life as a diplomat
    working to prevent just the sort of tyrant he describes in _The
    Prince_ from taking over the Florentine republic.

    Thus, a case could be made that he was saying, "This is what they'll
    do, if you let them," rather than teaching a shark to eat.

2.  Even though his advice is amoral, it isn't necessarily immoral.
    For instance, when discussing whether a Prince should use levies,
    mercenaries or a standing army to protect his rule, he says "The
    surest guard of a Prince is the love of his people."  (quoting from
    an inaccurate memory)

Finally, to tie this to another active thread, having a firearm is a
form of power--one of life or death.  If you aren't at least a little
frightened of that, I want to be well downrange of you....

--Tim

"I have the ultimate power!"
    "Really?  What kind of power?"
"The power of Life and Death!"
    "Oh...we thought you meant, you know, mechanical power...."
-from "Yellowbeard"
-- 
--- Tim Smith ---  timsmith@oasys.dt.navy.mil ---- (301)227-1611 ---
----- Code 1522, David Taylor Model Basin, Bethesda, MD  20084 -----
----- The Secretary will disavow all knowledge of my opinions. -----
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: pharvey@quack.sac.ca.us (Paul Harvey)
Subject: Re: Men's Mysteries
Organization: The Duck Pond public unix: +1 408 249 9630, log in as 'guest'.
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 16:52:05 GMT

In article <10SEP199220052231@rosie.uh.edu> 
lib1p@rosie.uh.edu (Tammy Stark Blandino) writes:
>I think that after women have explored women's mysteries
>and men have explored men's mysteries we are going to find
>that we are all the same in only different ways.  Both
>mysteries are *OUR* mysteries together.
>Men's Mysteries + Women's Mysteries = LIFE

You are quite right. What you are onto is the Eastern field of
opposites. That being all that we call reality is composed of pairs of
opposites, like; man/woman, me/you, life/death, night/day ... If you
study how these pairs are opposites, ie study the differences, then you
can begin to see how they are in fact alike, how they are in fact a
manifestation of the single transcendent, but this unification can not
be done without first studying the differences, you need the perspective
of distance, separation from the transcendent. One must first leave
home, leave the parents, before one can begin to return with the
knowledge of individuality. This is the true meaning of the "fall" from
the Garden of Eden. The fall is no worse than the fall you took from
your mother at birth. Not bad, just part of Homo sapiens sapiens. Joyful
participation in the sorrows of the world and I wish you a peaceful
journey.
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: corun@access.digex.com (Corun MacAnndra)
Subject: Re: New pagans and reading
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 19:34:03 GMT

Dearest Janis,

Greetings and brightest blessings to you. Thank you from the bottom of my
heart for your kind and insightful words. I understand, and have agreed
for some time with everything you said. I especially liked you analogy to
tuning a guitar. I play guitar and Irish music, and if you've ever been to
a seisun and tried to tune up while an Uilleann piper is tuning up...Yikes!
I know that women have been usurped for longer than either of us care to 
think about, and I didn't want my question to sound like I was against 
anything women are doing to change that. I have a button that reads "Women
hold up half the sky," and another that proclaims me as another man against
rape. Believe me, if you knew how that subject churns my innards.

However, I must not have made my question clear. It's not that women's
mysteries frighten or worry me, it's that I can't find anyone who knows
diddlybop about men's mysteries. The session I went to at Ecumenicon was
worthless. Nothing was said except that smoe of the men were afraid to open
up because of the women in the room, and subsequently the whole thing turned
into one big whine session. Nobody discussed men's mysteries at all, and 
I'm curious. Is there such a thing? Does it go beyond the sweat lodge?
What are it's roots? Things like that.

Personally, as a Taoist and a computer engineer, I believe in the creation
and propogation of energy. All things in the universe give some kind of 
energy, and the higher the degree of sentience, the more likely that the
creature will be able to control it. Like a coin, there is male energy
and female energy, and both are needed to make a congruent whole. I guess
I'm seeking a method whereby I can recognize and utilize more fully, and
for the greater good, the energy that I inherently create or propogate. I
had thought that information about men's mysteries would help along that
line. I apologize for not clarifying that in my first missive. Sometimes
it takes me awhile to type what I really mean.

Anyway, I loved you message to me. You remind me somewhat of a woman who
is near to my heart. If you are familiar with Marion Zimmer Bradley's
Darkover books, know that she and I have exchanged knives. She is my Breda,
and I am her Bredu. We're not lovers, and probably never likely to be as
we each have one of those, but the relationship is deep. She speaks to me
much as you did. From the heart. And I am never afraid to tell her anything.
Would that all people could know such love.

Bb,

Corun
-- 
===========================================================================
    Corun MacAnndra     |      But what if this hadn't been
  Dark Horde by birth   |        a rhetorical question?
    Moritu by choice    |                            C. Nelson
From: krikket@meltdown.chi.il.us (D. 'krikket' Krick)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Book stores (was: Learning in North Carolina)
Date: 12 Sep 92 07:00:44 GMT
Organization: The Meltdown - A Team Star BBS

In article <1992Sep8.174914.3177@linus.mitre.org>, spaceman@mwunix.mitre.org
(Fletcher Williams) writes:
>
>
>     I don't know if they are nation-wide, but in the Washington, D.C.
>area, there are two bookstores called 'Borders'. One in Rockville, MD and
>they other in the Tyson's Corner area of VA. They have a great selection and
>the place is huge. I took my booklist in one day and found what I wanted
>straight away. 
>     They seem to carry multiple titles of a wide assortment of subjects. Of
>course, this means that they also stock the fluffy stuff. :)

Borders has gone nationwide.  Or at least they are doing so now...  (There is
one in the Chicagoland area with a good selection...)

On the other hand, another store chain, Barnes and Noble, started out with a
horrid section of "New Age" books.  (In amongst them were books on how to
convert people back to the Xitan teachings...)

So we locals bitched, and those books were removed.  Along with the few books
that had any substance what-so-ever.  Now it is strictly fluff books, mixed
with a few UFO sightings, etc...

I don't go into that store without bitching before I leave...  (And I have
identified myself as a Pagan Minister there, which got me some respect from the
people who work there (they are good people, it's the bozos who are calling the
shots...))

That and they still carry some good stuff, but it's mixed in with other stuff
around the store, even if the book is LABELED by the publisher in BIG BOLD
LETTERS as "New Age"...

That and they refuse to carry anything relating to Paganism in there "Religion"
section.  It's pretty disgusting overall.  (Once you consider that they ARE
TRYING to give us what we want...)

+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Krikket              | krikket@meltdown.chi.il.us |USnail:3 Danada Square E.|
|a.k.a Doug Krick     | Team Star Charter Member   |       Suite 246         |
|Data # 708/665-9732  | #include<std.disclaimers>  |       Wheaton, Il 60187 |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Merry meet, merry part, and merry meet again.(Who the hell is Mary anyways?)|
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
From: darsie@eecs.ucdavis.edu (Richard Darsie)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Men's Mysteries
Date: 9 Sep 92 22:28:44 GMT
Organization: University of California, Davis

In article <6g9TqB8w165w@brewich.hou.tx.us>, morgan@brewich.hou.tx.us (Morgan ap Rhys) writes:
> 
> If I might be permitted a few words here...
>  
   [great post deleted]

Morgan, I think you are really on to something. The experience of 
fatherhood, and of being an *involved* father, has taught me so much
(needless to say, I'm still learning!). I'm sure that my style of
fatherhood is partly in reaction to my own father's more emotionally
distant nature (which I'm sure was the result of his own upbringing).
I think the father-son bond has to be a central "men's mystery", just
as the mother-daughter relationship is an important female "mystery".
I have two sons, with very different personalities, and life with
them is a constant joy (and challenge!). I think an important part of
fatherhood (and parenthood in general) is accepting that you're not
a "perfect" parent. People carry around these ideal images about
what a "good" or "perfect" parent is, and these images are constantly
being blown apart by the everyday reality of life with children, who
are in many ways mirrors for their parents, in the sense that often,
behaviors in the children that are most bothersome to parents are
reflections of behaviors and attitudes that the parents themselves
are still struggling with. 

>  
> Morgan
> 

Blessings,
Richard
(Tuneweaver)
From: leighann@fugazi.sybase.com (Leigh Ann Hussey)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: The Four Treasures
Date: 11 Sep 92 23:23:59 GMT
Organization: Sybase, Inc., Emeryville, CA

In article <BuBEAv.Ev0@phage.cshl.org>, cuddihy@phage.cshl.org (Elisabeth Cuddihy) writes:
|> As for the names of the cities and some other related info on these treasures,
|> you'll have to wait 'til I get home because my memory is not that of a bard's.
Luckily, mine is!  ;-)
Gurias, the Burning Fort - Spear of Lugh
Falias, the Fort of Fate - Stone of Fal
Murias, the Fort of the Sea - Cauldron of the Dagda
Finnias, the Shining White Fort - Sword of Nuada

The Spear had this quality: it had to be kept in a vessel of water, or
it would burn down the place where it was.  The Stone had the quality
already mentioned, that it would shriek when the true king stepped on
it.  The Cauldron had this quality: that none who came to it hungry
would go away hungry, but it would not boil a coward's food.  The Sword
had this quality: that anyone injured by even a scratch of it would die.

|> Questions: 
|> 1) Has anyone ever seen a name listed with the Lia Fail or does it
|> have no "owner"?   

Its owner is Fal, the Goddess of Fate.  There's an accent over that "a"
by the way.  "Fail" is the genetive form of "Fal".

|> 2) Does anyone think there is a connection between the Irish treasures and
|> the 13 Treasures of Britain?  Yes, I've read all of Caitlin Matthew's stuff
|> on this matter and I am not particularly convinced one way or the other.

As well you may be.  I like the Matthews' stuff, but they do tend toward
a sloppiness in their research.  There are corresponding treasures among
the 13 Treasures (which are, by the way, Welsh), and the whole idea may
have sprung from a common root, but it's stretching a bit to say that
there is a sure connection.

BTW, has anybody else played with the Matthews' Arthurian Tarot?  I like
it much better than their "Merlin Tarot" -- better artwork, better
imagery.  I used it as a framework for my NROOGD Black Cord (in my trad,
it's traditional for the Third Degree ritual to be composed by the
initiate -- I arranged it so that there would still be some
surprises...).

B*B
	- Leigh Ann
From: altheimm@nextnet.csus.edu (Murray Altheim)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: pagan self-defense
Date: 10 Sep 92 01:17:31 GMT
Organization: California State University Sacramento

In article <1992Sep9.201628.8395@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com> billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson) writes:
>cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese) writes:

[discussion of merits/demerits of handguns, using Canada and Switzerland
as examples...]

>Wrong. The USA is just murder/assault crazed - period. The availability
>of firearms does not make this so.
>
>: one.  An armed society is a dangerous society.  An armed society is a
>: psychotic society, needing only a small tip before it overturns and
>: crushed you underneath.  An armed society is a deadly society.  Someone
>
>For a counter example. All able bodied males in Switzerland are required
>to have a weapon in the house. That weapon is often fully automatic. They
>are also allowed to buy surplus military weapons for their own use. Such
>weapons often are anti-tank weapons etc.  Now, Switzerland has one of the
>lowest robbery, assault and murder rates in the world.
>
>Just face it. The population of the US is just violent. 
>
>: once posted that in Canada (last year, I think) they had a total of 650
>: murders in the whole damned country; the place has 25,000,000 people.
>: 650 won't even total the murders in one big American city, land of guns,
>: for one year.  I'm sorry -- an armed society forces ME to be armed; it
[...]
>I agree that it can be hazardous to have firearms around the house,
>especially if you are unwilling to teach proper firearm safety to
>the kids. However, most firearm deaths in the country are due to
>family arguments. Here, not having a gun might have prevented some
>deaths, but then, it might not have. Some other weapon could have
>been used instead.  In this case, you would find that the percentage
>of women killed by their spouses would be higher than the other way
>around.
>
>Bill

I don't really disagree with either of you -- you both make valid points
about handguns. Obviously, thorough training is required to safely own a
gun, and children and guns don't mix. But Canada and Switzerland? 

Canada has an extremely low population density by comparison to the US,
which hardly makes any comparison reasonable, and Switzerland is really 
not comparable to ANY country using ANY statistical method, based on its
size and per capita income.  There is no class war going on in Switzerland,
(at least to my knowledge), and I doubt the justice systems of our two
countries are similar in their treatment of criminals.

As for domestic violence, I have to agree with those who believe that a
loaded gun anywhere in the vicinity of two violent people is nothing but
stupidity waiting to explode. A fist or a frying pan is damaging enough.

Blessings,

Murray

-- 
Murray M. Altheim      "Ils ont l'orteil de Bouc, & d'un Chevreil l'oreille,
Instructional Consultant    La corne d'un Chamois, & la face vermeille
CSU, Sacramento          Comme un rouge Croissant: & dancent toute nuict
altheimm@csus.edu       Dedans un carrefour, ou pres d'une eau qui bruict."
From: st923058@pip.cc.brandeis.edu (Rosaleen Dhu)
Subject: names
Reply-To: st923058@pip.cc.brandeis.edu
Organization: Brandeis University
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 17:40:30 GMT

This is another post about choosing the names of deities. My usename is
Rosaleen Dhu. I use this on newsgroups, and as a pen name. However, it is
not my Craft name. I do not think it's appropriate to use my Craft name on
a newsgroup. In fact, only two people in the world--two of my Craft sisters--
even know what it is. But it is a name from Celtic mythology. I thought
VERY carefully about her legend before I took her name. I decided that there
was nothing in her legend that would convince me not to take the name, but I
didn't pick the name because of the legend. I chose the name because as soon
as I saw it, I knew it was the name I was supposed to have. I found this
deity especially easy to talk to, and she is the one I call on during my
infrequent spellworkings. (I later found out that she is the patron deity
of, among other things, music--my major, fortunetelling--one of my Gifts,
and lots of other things that are part of my personality.)
While I agree that the legend of the deity in question should be thought
about very carefully before you take the deity's name, I don't think it
should be the only consideration. There is a school of thought which says
that if you are supposed to have a particular name, that name will make
itself known to you, and I really like that idea.
				Rosaleen Dhu
"At the Festival sounds the horn, calling the people again,
Child of barleycorn, newly summer-born, ripening like the grain."
			--Gwydion Pendderwen
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: jmm25@po.CWRU.Edu (Jessica M. Mcgeary)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: "Jesus did not claim divinity" Part 1
Date: 13 Sep 92 17:04:31 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: thor.ins.cwru.edu


I thought that everybody more or less knew about the huge gaping holes
that would suddenly appear in their theories and beliefs when they tried
to claim that the Gospels were biographies of Jesus.

1. Most of the priests (I'm a catholic heretic) I know, when they give
the readings on Sunday, declare that the following "Is a reading from the
Gospel according to the TRADITION OF (whoever)".

2. They were all written WAY after the fact- Mark, supposedly, around
70 CE, Matt. & Luke around 75 CE, and John WAY after, around 100 or so.
And according to the good Jebbie fathers at Fordham, who DO try to be
scholarly about such things, John is more or less a compilation. According
to Father Anginoli, a friend of my family and a specialist in canon law &
Church scholarship, John's Gospel was most likely written by followers of
John in an attempt to replicate John's style... and therefore is probably 
the least reliable of the four accepted Gospels.

I like this article.
(the one I"m responding to, I mean)
-- 
Jessica McGeary
jmm25@po.cwru.edu
Case Western Reserve University
Remember! Arguments should be FUN!
Xref: sparky alt.pagan:9278 rec.martial-arts:12162 talk.politics.guns:20938
From: hunter@quake.sylmar.ca.us (James Collins)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan,rec.martial-arts,talk.politics.guns
Subject: Re: A little on self defense...
Date: 14 Sep 92 20:21:27 GMT
Organization: Quake Public Access, Sylmar CA

n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio) writes:

> cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese) writes:
 <Lotsa miscellaneous stuff about knives in self-defense (in comparison to 
   guns>
> >Blessings,
> >Janis 
> 
> JD

  Hmm, well, I tend to agree with the James (and not because i'm a James 
too :) ).  However, I tend to have a different side to offer.  While 
knives are good for close in self-defense there *are* problems.  1) 
Generally knives are deemed no-no's by the law (basically due to the 
NRA's work in protecting guns) and you can get in serious trouble with 
them.  2) The mental issue with knives also is pretty tough too.  With a 
knive you have to get up close, and most people (just my thought at 
least) don't have what it takes to get down and dirty with blood and guts 
all over the place...  Guns are sooo nicely impersonal when you need 
them, just point and boom, no more bad guy, assuming of course that you 
can hit them :) 3) No range on them.  If the other guy has a gun and you 
have a knife, you aren't gonna be in good shape in the end.  Unless of 
course you are right next to him, behind him, and with your knife at his 
throat. :)  Now, for the good side to knives... 1) No worries about ammo 
or gun failures.  Unless it breaks or is *really* dull, it will work.  2) 
Speed.  I believe Massad Ayoob is the one who came up with the 20 yard 
rule (or is it 20 feet?  Something like that... Come to think about it, 
probably 20 foot rule) Showing that a person at that distance can pull a 
knife and run up to a person and stab them a few times, before that 
person can draw and fire. 3) A little flaky here but... Concealability.  
Generally it is easier to conceal a knife than a gun, and i'm talking 
general here.  I'm not talking the Rambo-kill-em-all-with-one-swipe 1 and 
a half footer, or the Pee-Wee derringer here, so don't flame me with 
"well this is..." sorta stuff please :).  Other than that, post away :)


---------------------------------------------------------------------
James Collins
hunter@quake.sylmar.ca.us
james.collins%bbs@quake.sylmar.ca.us
---------------------------------------------------------------------
From: lib1p@rosie.uh.edu (Tammy Stark Blandino)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Circle Guide?
Date: 12 Sep 92 20:05:00 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: University of Houston
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <1992Sep11.214437.8697@mtu.edu>, smmcafee@mtu.edu (Sean McAfee) writes...
>Does anyone out there know when the revised Circle Guide to Pagan Resources
>(I think I got the name right) is coming out?  I ordered one earlier this
..some stuff deleted...
If you respond to this message, please mail me or post and mail me.
It's not
>that I don't read the group frequently--I do--but I'm still catching up on
>the ~500 articles that were waiting for me at the end of the summer.

Please post and mail, because I think there will be others 
interested in this too.  I know I am.

Tammy
Newsgroups: alt.pagan,alt.individualism
From: pharvey@quack.sac.ca.us (Paul Harvey)
Subject: Re: Who's "free-er"? Intrnat'l response wanted!
Organization: The Duck Pond public unix: +1 408 249 9630, log in as 'guest'.
	<exukjb.129.715967081@exu.ericsson.se> <33rnkq.adamsr@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 01:43:13 GMT

<deleted: nice brief summary on how we have lost our bill of rights,
primarily due to the war on drugs, the cia, nsa, nsc and federal bureau
of [non]criminal investigations.>

True, true, sad but true and only the tip of the iceberg. But someday
the mass of poorly educated citizens will wake up and realize what has
been lost, it is only a matter of time before the citizens once again
claim their rights, as they have done in the past. The fight for rights
is never over. Oh and by the way, you might consider voting
Libertarian.