HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: pef@dcs.qmw.ac.uk (Panayotis Fouliras)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: Re: A German in Greece
Date: 28 Sep 92 10:00:18 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Dept, QMW, University of London

In <9209271820.AA17479@sungate.icsmac.com> gunther.neuberger@icsmac4.icsmac.COM (GUNTHER NEUBERGER) writes:


>Hello everybody,
>I am new in this newsgroup.For the last three weeks I have read hundreds of
>articles on the Macedonia issue and I think it's the funniest thing
>in the last century.As I got deeper and deeper into the discussions
>I realized that Greek opinions carry some sort of paranoia which can
>be best summarized as the territorial claims on Greece by Macedonia,
>where some organizations at the extreme right in Macedonia are held
>responsible.That's really funny.How can such a small country claim land
>from Greece? Aggressive policies of the greek government have made the
>situation impossible to solve.

If you read those articles, some could at least tell what the
reason is. Read what Eastern Rumelia was in the last century
and what happened to it. I do not beleive that in a time of
need, Germans (or anybody else for this matter) would be
prepared to sacrifice their lives for the sake of people (like
me) that normally reside in Thessaloniki (I assume you know
where this is). As to the aggression, etc in the whole of the
Balkans, well, don't mention it better. I prefer to be
'paranoid' and safe, than 'reasonable' and suffering.

>I was in Greece two months ago.Me and my girlfriend visited some Greek
>islands which were wonderful but one thing really bothered me.
>The sentence,"Macedonia is Greek" was written on almost everything I saw.
>They had even written this sentence on the walls of public restrooms,
>on the closets and doors of these restrooms.
>It seemed as if whomever I met in Greece was more than eager to say
>something bad about Macedonia and Turkey.
>I have also visited Turkey.Before we flew to Istanbul,many Greeks warned
>me to be careful about my girlfriend!.After being in Istanbul we realized
>how silly and wrong this warning was.I really don't know why Greeks
>behave like this?

Simple. Greeks live there. Tourists don't. It is quite normal
that you don't remember/know what has happened in the area
during the last 100 years. Quite natural. It is like a Greek not knowing
of any Chech fear about the old Sudettenland. So my friend, why bother?
Have fun, while it lasts!

_____________________________________________________________________________
>|  Gunther Neuberger                         |  
Regards

Panayotis

--
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Cellphone: Too expensive to fit                            allon"
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
From: secsu@ariel.lerc.nasa.gov (Ralph O. Clark)
Subject: "Zavarakatravemia"
Summary: afou dev skampazw Krntika....
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: NASA Lewis Research Center
Date:  2 Oct 1992 13:42 EST  

(tragoudouse o Ksylourns)

   Zavarakatravemia, Zavarakatraveeeeeeeeeeeemiaaaaaa.
   Zavarakatravemia, nnnnnleos, nnnnnleos,
   Nama (Lama?), vama, vama, veeeeeeeeeeeeeemiaaaaaaa.

Ti snmaivei n leksn "Zavarakatranemia";
Dev tnv briskw oute sta leksika oute sta muala twn Ellnvwn (Kypraiwn)
pou kserw.

Dnladn wxi mono autn n leksn alla ola ta logia tou tragoudiou!!

"nleos" tha pei "nlios", n kanw lathos;

Ralph
pantremenos me Kypraia
From: cla02@seq1.keele.ac.uk (R. Wallace)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,eunet.politics
Subject: Re: Why Macedonia is Greek
Date: 5 Oct 92 09:47:07 GMT
Organization: Keele University, England

From article <6505.3248.uupcb@factory.com>, by michael.polymenakos@factory.com (Michael Polymenakos):
> 
>>The fact that you very much want something to be true doesn't increase
>>the chances that it is true.
> 
>  But the fact that the USA, the EEC, Canada, Australia, the United
> Nations, 150+ other countries of the world, the international Olympic
> committee, and every other major organisation agree that it is true,
> does increase the chances that it is true. In fact, under these current
> conditions, it is true for all practical purposes.
> 
> Michael.
>                                                                                                  
The article to which the comment at the top was a response was concerned
almost entirely with ancient Macedonia, and my objection to it was that
it stated as facts propositions which are, and have been for years, the
subject of lively debate among ancient historians.

I am not aware that the organisations you mention have taken up a
position on these issues.

If they were to do so, I would give their opinions no weight whatsoever
except insofar as they were supported by good arguments based on the
evidence.

Richard Wallace
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.turkish,soc.culture.europe
From: mb2p@fermi.clas.Virginia.EDU (Marco  Bertamini)
Subject: Re: EC AND TURKEY....
Organization: University of Virginia
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 15:04:32 GMT

In article <29SEP199215080511@lims01.lerc.nasa.gov> scgeoff@lims01.lerc.nasa.gov (GEOFF ELLIOTT) writes:
>
>With all of the chaos in the EC right now (currency, economies, etc) and 
>the violence against the Bosnians that the EC is unwilling to do anything
>about, Turkiye would be crazy to even want in the EC now anyway.

there have been European soldiers who died in relief efforts
in Bosnia. I found it offensive your point that the EC is unwilling 
to do anything about the problem. Although I agree that more 
could be done, but as you seem to know very well, there are many
problems concerning EC right.

>Turkiye should concentrate on developing its relationships with the former
>Soviet republics and leave Europe to solve its own problems.

are you implying that the former Soviet republics have less
problems than the EC ?

>It is certainly a shame that the poorest member of the EC should have any
>say against new members.  

Quite the opposite. It's a good thing that even the poorest
member is listened to. They, just as prospective members,
have a right to an opinion. The EC should not ignore some
of its members just becouse they are economically behind.

>Why don't the Europeans simply admit that they
>have a racist feeling against Turks and be done with it????

EC do not need excuses to refuse admission to anybody.
I know that racism is present in Europe. This is something
we need to worry about, however I do not believe that 
major politial decisions are taken on a racist basis.
I do not see any evidence for that.

As for Turkiye, they can do whatever they want. I must
admit that I know very little about this country.
But if most Turks share your anger against EC, I think
it would be a mistake for Turkiye to join the EC, and
for the EC to accept it.

>Eniste!

ciao,    Marco
From: michael.polymenakos@factory.com (Michael Polymenakos) 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: Re: RE: CONFUSIONS...
Date: 26 Sep 92 20:17:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Invention Factory's BBS - New York City, NY - 212-274-1243v.32bis
Reply-To: michael.polymenakos@factory.com (Michael Polymenakos) 


>> [...] The form of government was that of a hereditary monarchy under
>>the
>> family of the Argeads, who enjoyed the dubious support of a great
>> landowning aristocracy.>> Brittanica "Greco-Roman Civilization".
>
>This doesn't sound very Greek at all. - Might be worth looking at the
>thoughts of Isocrates (a friend of Philip) Philip 5.107 in this regard.

 Argead not Greek enough for you? The Argeads were the leading family of
Argos. The Macedonian kings considered themselves Argeads, and the other
Greeks also considered them Greeks (in Olympia). So what is not greek
enough about all this?

Michael
From: ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis )
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: Re: Why Macedonia is Greek
Date: 30 Sep 92 19:18:07 GMT
Article-I.D.: news.BvEoA8.Mpr
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana

hilmi-er@vall (Hilmi Eren) writes:

>         + Is the Macedonian History falsified by Macedonians?- are you 
>         + trying to convince yourself or millions of Macedonians?
>         + Please stop this bullshit- if there is a people called Macedonians
>         + and if they want to call their state Macedonia then let them do it-
>         + if there is a majority behind this - which it is.

   Heh, you don't like reading the facts?
   Ignorance and propaganda are the foundations of the Skopjean state.
   People are keep talking about a Macedonian nation e.t.c.
   This is the bullshit of this story.

   Repetition of facts is necessary.  Their propagnada is not going to
   achive their goals.

   Panos Tamamidis
Xref: sparky soc.culture.greek:9508 soc.culture.europe:8806
From: gd8f@kelvin.seas.Virginia.EDU (Gregory  Dandulakis)
Newsgroups: soc.human.rights,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe
Subject: Re: Greek justice towards a Jehovah Witness.
Keywords: Human rights,Greece, religious discrimination
Date: 6 Oct 92 19:24:44 GMT
Article-I.D.: murdoch.1992Oct6.192444.23858
Organization: University of Virginia

In article <1992Oct3.161710.7501@dcs.qmw.ac.uk> pef@dcs.qmw.ac.uk (Panayotis Fouliras) writes:


>   ... The Greek Orthodox Church is the official church


This was true up till 1974. Since then the Constitution recognizes NO
official religion, but it states clearly that the Orthodox Church is
the DOMINANT one (in numbers, among the population).

These are legal tricks, of course :-)


Gr
From: c23st@kocrsv01.DElcoelect.COM (Spiros Triantafyllopoulos)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: re: EC and Turkiye
Date: 29 Sep 92 20:58:41 GMT
Organization: The Ohio State University Department of Computer and Information Science

GEOFF ELLIOT writes:

> It is certainly a shame that the poorest member of the EC should have any
> say against new members.  Why don't the Europeans simply admit that they
> have a racist feeling against Turks and be done with it????

In a community of equals regarding all policies, all members should have
equal say in what happens. How about the opposite case, where, Greece,
Spain, and Portugal become second-tier members, while Germany and France
get to decide for all 12 members. Equally scary.

Taken a bit further, this becomes 'might is right' where one or two countries
(eventually one) gets to dictate EC policy. The results of that would
be as pathetic as anyone can imagine. 

A better example is the United Nations and events of, say, the last couple
of years. While the UN (or its chief spokescountry :-)) rushed to the help
of whatshisname in Kuwait, because it was convenient for the spokescountry
to do so, the same UN is unwilling to do anything about the crisis in
X-Yugoslavia, just because there's no gain for whoever dictates the policy.

Would you rather have that instead?

Spiros
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
From: phs265y@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: Re: OSE: A troskyist fringe group
Date: 28 Sep 92 11:24:25 +1000
Organization: Computer Centre, Monash University, Australia

In article <Bv343H.Mx@gabriel.keele.ac.uk>, cla04@seq1.keele.ac.uk (A.T. Fear) writes:
> From article <1992Sep24.104942.4045@dcs.qmw.ac.uk>, by pef@dcs.qmw.ac.uk (Panayotis Fouliras):
>> 
>> I do not know the details of the particular case, but I could
>> agree with you otherwise. However, since you claim to be a Tory
>> (=Conservative), you must be aware of the fact that politicians
>> supportive of the IRA, etc, are banned by *LAW*, to have their
>> views broadcasted
>> 
>> Doesn't this come in full contradiction with what you said
>> above? Think about it. After all it is a Tory government
>> responsible for that bill. So, what about democracy then?
> 
> First point, not all members of political parties (in England at least)
> have to agree with everything their leadership says, I suspect this is
> true in Greece as well as Britain so you can't necessarily infer that I
> support this ban. The reason for it coming about was simple - growing
> public dislike in Britain of IRA spokesmen appearing on the news after acts of
> terrorism to justify them. Here of course lies the main difference, the
> political wing of the IRA (Sinn Fein) supports what it euphemistically
> calls the armed struggle in Northern Ireland, something the rest of us
> would call murder. As far as I can make out the OSE activists
> didn't advocate violence against any one, they just disagreed with Greek
> government policy. Moreover let's not remember that Sinn Fein remains a
> legal political party in Britain and freely distributes its leaflets
> which are far more inflamatory than the OSE pamphlet concerned, without
> its members risking arrest for doing so. Its opinion can still be heard
> on British television via quotation. Whatever the rights and wrongs of
> this ban, a subject I think for soc.culture.celtic, it is in no way
> comparable to what has happened in Greece.

         I wonder if Andy would change his position if he finds out (if he
didn't know already) that the OSE gives unconditional critical support to the
IRA and advocates armed overthrow of the Greek, Irish and British governments
by the organised working class


                                  Tony Hartin
                                  International Socialist Organisation
                                  Australia
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
From: 8800529@hydra.maths.unsw.EDU.AU ()
Subject: Re: OSE: A troskyist fringe group
Organization: school of Mathematics UNSW
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 08:45:50 GMT

In article <1992Sep30.083645.90233@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au> phs265y@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au writes:
>In article <1992Sep26.012810.16478@usage.csd.unsw.OZ.AU>, 8800529@hydra.maths.unsw.EDU.AU () writes:
>> 
>> 	What is you source of knowledge for what they got arested ? SAS ?
>> Or was it those OSE postings. Not very objective. They have lied before
>> remeber aboriginal goverment from SAS or the student ralies at my own
>> UNfrom the Socialist group. Bothe lies. 
>
>       You are full of shit mate. I said there were student rallies in Sydney
>from 29th June till the 2nd of July. There were. I also provided the references
>of the newspapers which covered the demos. I also have videotaped news coverage 
>of the demos. By the way, the week was called "Rage against the Right" and was
>in part organised by the ISO.
>

	Not at the time it was mentioned. And not in the way it was described.
It was greatly exadurated and no priminister showed up to the university.
I don't know were you are writing from but check mu address it's 
University of New South Wales. And that's were it was supposed to have happened
Don't go exploding, was it your post I am refering ?



>
>                               Tony Hartin
>                               International Socialist Organisation
>                               Australia


	George
From: 8800529@hydra.maths.unsw.EDU.AU ()
Subject: Re:  REQUEST:  Hippocratic Oath in Greek
Keywords: Hippocrates, Asklepios, Hygiene
Organization: school of Mathematics UNSW
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1992 10:15:41 GMT

>
>Ou dwsw de oude farmakon oudeni aith8eis 8avasimon oude ufhfhsomai
>3umboulihn toihnde. Omoiws de oude gunaiki pesson f8orion dwsw.
>Agnws de kai osiws diathrhsw bion emon kai texnhn emhn.
>
>(I will never give a deadly medicine, even if I asked to,
>neither will I give advice for such a medicine.
>Similarly, I will never give an abortive medicine to a woman.
>I will keep my life and art pure and holy.)


	Of the whole oath the above impressed me most. They seem timeless
and very applicable for today !!!


>
>Ou temew de oude mhn li8iwntas, ekkxwrisw de ergathisin andrasin
>prh3ios thsde.
>(I will not use the knife, not even if the person suffers from stone,
>but I will withdraw from such acts.)

	The above is obviouse that cannot be applied today. Is it true that
the fact blood flows in artiries has only been officialy known in the
last couple of centuries..
	Also a point to make is the Hipocrates discovered aspirin the most
common medicine even now.
>
>C. Christara
>

	An impressive job !! Thanks even though I was not the one that asked 
it.
A
	George.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
From: umea105@ic.ac.uk (umea105/20000)
Subject: Test
Organization: Imperial College Mathematics Department
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 92 11:31:55 BST

Testing  .................
-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------
George
From: schoinas@fox.cs.wisc.edu (Yannis Schoinas)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: Re: OSE: A troskyist fringe group
Date: 27 Sep 92 01:29:32 GMT
Organization: U of Wisconsin Madison - Computer Sciences

lb@cs.man.ac.uk (Luben Boyanov) writes:

>In article <schoinas.717444176@cs.wisc.edu> schoinas@fox.cs.wisc.edu (Yannis Schoinas) writes:

>[deleted]

>>>True. I was amazed that in Greece there are Trotskuites but if their fight
>>>is an ideological one only - that should be OK. 
>>
>>I can't see why. You will find in Greece supporters of every leftist
>>deviation that you can think of.

>My point was that the 'Communist world' had 'exposed' Trotskuites as 'bad'
>and there were almost no of them in that world. 

Although, trotskists were perhaps more numerous once, for the period 
I know about, that is after 1974 we are talking about much less than 
10 thousand votes in the elections. And in almost every election 
until in the 70's and 80's there were five or six fringe parties 
taking from 500 to 10000 votes each.

>And in the West, from what
>I know, communist ideas declined rapidly after 1956. Nothing wrong - just
>curiosity.

What do you mean by communist ideas? Up until very recently (until it
split and changed its name) the italian communist party was the largest 
party in Italy, if I am not mistaken.

						Yannis.
From: lb@cs.man.ac.uk (Luben Boyanov)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: Re: Greece's 10 Mistakes
Date: 27 Sep 92 18:04:30 GMT
Organization: Dept Computer Science, University of Manchester, U.K.

In article <Bv8Gpu.n2K@gabriel.keele.ac.uk> cla04@seq1.keele.ac.uk (A.T. Fear) writes:

[deleted]

>As I have already pointed out whether or not the some inhabitants of
>Macedonia are Bulgarian in origin, it is clear that some of them had a
>sense of identity as Macedonians well before you imply, see Brailsford's
>book Macedonia and its account of the uprising of 1903.

I'm afraid that one may get confused if not reading Brailsford carefully or
quoting selected sentences from him. What Brailsford thinks of the
character of the uprising is perfectly clear from the title of the
chapter, in which he describes the revolt - and the title is:

 		The Bulgarian Movement

and not the 'Macedonian Movement' !!! This is a wide spread confusion,
because the movement was for Independent Macedonia, and not for a union
with Bulgaria. But it's harldy an argument for the national identity of the
people there and their national consciousness. And the consciousness from
that time, just as the character of the uprising are unequivocal descibed
in all books and documents. No need to alter them now. After all, examples
of different countries in which the largest national group is the same as
in a neighbouring country (or 2 - 3 from neighbouring countries) are
not hard to find.

>The point remains that *now* there is a country called Macedonia where
>the people call themselves Macedonians.

That is quite a different point and not everybody objects to it. Please
don't put the entire Balkans in the same pot. 

>inhabit. I regard the Roman period of my country's history as part of my
>inheritance, though none of my ancestors (to the best of my knowledge) would have been in Britain
>at the time.

True and you call it 'Roman' period. That doesn't change your present
identity, does it? So - when talking about history, one can use the real
names ... This, of course, has nothing to do with the present problems (if
any). Alas, do you really believe that Greece alone stops the recognition
of Macedonia?

>Andy


Regards
Xref: sparky soc.culture.greek:9399 soc.culture.yugoslavia:8938 soc.culture.europe:8716
From: am@sys.uea.ac.uk (A. Machaeridis)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.europe
Subject: Re: GREEKS : THE TIME TO ORGANIZE YOUR PR IS NOW !
Date: 30 Sep 92 15:48:09 GMT
Organization: UEA School of Information Systems, Norwich, UK.

ognastov@athena.mit.edu (Ognen J Nastov) writes:

>Places have a right to be called whatever they like. Especially when
>the population of these places unanonymously agrees on the name.

You mean that if they decided to be called Chinesse then their country
should be called China ?

>Ognen J. Nastov              MIT Artificial Intelligence Laboratory
                                  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Do you realy have  Mutl.u there ? :)

Tassos
From: perena@csc.liv.ac.uk (Miss. P.I. Gouma)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: Re: A German in Greece
Date: 28 Sep 92 22:43:59 GMT
Organization: Computer Science, Liverpool University

In article <9209271820.AA17479@sungate.icsmac.com>, gunther.neuberger@icsmac4.icsmac.COM (GUNTHER NEUBERGER) writes:
> 
> Hello everybody,
> I am new in this newsgroup.For the last three weeks I have read hundreds of
> articles on the Macedonia issue and I think it's the funniest thing
> in the last century.As I got deeper and deeper into the discussions 
> I realized that Greek opinions carry some sort of paranoia which can
> be best summarized as the territorial claims on Greece by Macedonia,
> where some organizations at the extreme right in Macedonia are held
> responsible.That's really funny.How can such a small country claim land
> from Greece? Aggressive policies of the greek government have made the
> situation impossible to solve.
> I was in Greece two months ago.Me and my girlfriend visited some Greek
> islands which were wonderful but one thing really bothered me.
> The sentence,"Macedonia is Greek" was written on almost everything I saw.
> They had even written this sentence on the walls of public restrooms,
> on the closets and doors of these restrooms.
> It seemed as if whomever I met in Greece was more than eager to say
> something bad about Macedonia and Turkey.
> I have also visited Turkey.Before we flew to Istanbul,many Greeks warned
> me to be careful about my girlfriend!.After being in Istanbul we realized
> how silly and wrong this warning was.I really don't know why Greeks 
> behave like this?
> 
I am impressed to hear a German talking about prejudice of Greeks against
Turks and Skopjians! It is well known that the Germans are the ones obsessed
with foreigners (especially Turks). At least the Greeks do not KILL Turks, as
the Germans do. 
Please, next time try not to be so naive and prevent yourself from criticising
without having sufficient knowledge of the subject. Serious criticism is always welcome.

 Aufwiedersehen,
       Viele Gruessen,
                   Perena

MACEDONIA WAR , IST UND WIRD IMMER SEIN  GRIECHISHE

>  _____________________________________________________________________________
> |  Gunther Neuberger                         |  gunther.neuberger@icsmac.com  |
> |-----------------------------------------------------------------------------|
> |  ICS      I n t e l l i g e n t   C o m p u t e r   S o l u t i o n s       |
>  \___________________________________________________________________________/