HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mat@mole-end.matawan.nj.us
Subject: Re: Why execute spies?
Summary: Speaking of Sun-Tzu
Organization: :
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 20:19:10 GMT


From mat@mole-end.matawan.nj.us




From mat@mole-end.matawan.nj.us

In article <1992Jul29.125726.21508@lawday.DaytonOH.NCR.COM>, buckley@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (BUCKLEY  CHARLES RAY) writes:
> From buckley@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (BUCKLEY  CHARLES RAY)

> I have a copy of Sun Tzu's 'Art of War' which talks a lot about spies. In
> this book he defines 5 types of spies: local spies; internal spies;
> converted spies; doomed spies; and surviving spies.
>  ...

Speaking of Sun-Tzu ... I've been a'meaning to post a book recommendation
and I don't think I have.  If I sent this a while ago, please excuse my
bad memory.

	_Mastering The Art Of War_
	_Zhuge Liang's and Liu Ji's commentaries on
	 the classic by Sun Tzu_
		Translated and Edited by Thomas Cleary
		Shambhala Publications, Inc (Boston and Shaftsbury)
		Copyright 1989
		ISBN 0-87773-513-1

This paperback volume contains two venerable works.

The first describes the forms of virtue in a commander.  Much of it
can apply to any leader, to any manager, to anyone who must be
responsible for the labor or welfare of others:

	Generals have five strengths and eight evils.

	The five strengths are: noble behavior that can inspire the
	common people, social virtues that can elevate their
	reputations, trustworthiness and dutifulness in personal
	relationships, universal love encompassing all the people,
	and powerful action to succeed in their tasks.

	The eight evils are: inability to assess right and wrong when
	formulating strategy, inability to delegate authority to the
	wise and good in times of order, inability to mete out just
	punishments for incidents of disorder, inability to help the
	poor in times of plenty, insufficient intelligence to guard
	against threats before they take shape, insufficient thought to
	prevent subtle dangers, inability to express what is known
	intuitively, and inability to avoid criticism in defeat.

The second part is a set of stories (or perhaps parables) drawn from
Chinese history, illustrating the lesson's of Sun Tzu's _Art of War_.

Also included are extensive introductions, with outlines of Chinese
history to provide a background for the events and people described.

I found it very good reading.  My copy is marked $10(US).
-- 
 (This man's opinions are his own.)
 From mole-end				Mark Terribile

 mat@mole-end.matawan.nj.us, Somewhere in Matawan, NJ

Newsgroups: sci.military
From: johnm@hpmcaa.mcm.hp.com (John Mosbarger)
Subject: Re: is the A-10 going bye-bye?
Organization: HP Cardiology Business Unit - McMinnville, OR
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 13:14:35 GMT


From johnm@hpmcaa.mcm.hp.com (John Mosbarger)

     There was an article in the Salem (OR) Statesman-Journal a few months
ago reporting that the US Forest Service will be modifying 2 A-10's for
fire-fighting duty at a cost of $200,000 each.  If the conversion is suc-
cessful, more will be modified (I don't remember the number).

--
John Mosbarger
HP McMinnville, OR
johnm@hpmcaa.mcm.hp.com


Newsgroups: sci.military
From:     "Edward J. Rudnicki" (FSAC-SID) <erudnick@pica.army.mil>
Subject:  Re: P90 Penetration
Organization: NCR Corporation - Law Department
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 13:18:08 GMT


From     "Edward J. Rudnicki" (FSAC-SID) <erudnick@pica.army.mil>



Liang Tian Soon writes:
#  I have a leaflet on FN's Individual Defence Weapon(IDW?), the
#P90. It fires a new 5.7*28mm round which FN claims to penetrate
#48 layers of body armour at 150m. I was wondering how this
#compares to other common mil round like 5.56, 7.62 and 9mm, i.e.
#is 48 layers really impressive?
#  Related to this, how many layers do normal body armour
#have? I understand that there are many different grades of body
#armour, for different roles(CT, bomb-disposal etc). What I am after
#is body armour for the normal infantry man.
#  Threading the 2 paragraphs together, which mil round can
#penetrate normal body armour?

Isn't that the PDW - Personal Defense Weapon?

Military body armor is designed to protect against splinters/fragments
from bursting munitions rather than small arms projectiles. However,
much current armor is capable of reliably stopping conventional 9mm
(and other) pistol bullets, which was one of FN's motives in
introducing this new caliber. The also have a discarding-sabot AP
bullet for the PDW. The PDW has been adopted by I believe the Saudi
Arabian National Guard.

The standard military armor will not reliably stop rifle projectiles
such as 5.56mm and 7.62mm (NATO or M43). Supposedly during the invasion
of the Falklands by the Argentinians, the latters' Marines wore armor
with hard inserts capable of stopping 7.62mm NATO AP. This is heavy
stuff though.


Ed Rudnicki     erudnick@pica.army.mil     All disclaimers apply
"It demoralized them. Not to mention killed them."
     --- 3rd AD officer describing effects of DPICM in ODS

Newsgroups: sci.military
From: ntaib@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Iskandar Taib)
Subject: Re: Water Injection
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 20:43:01 GMT


From ntaib@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Iskandar Taib)




From ntaib@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Iskandar Taib)

In article <1992Jul28.130755.25502@lawday.DaytonOH.NCR.COM> geoffm@purplehaze.Corp.Sun.COM (Geoff Miller) writes:

|Not exactly.  High performance military jets -- fighters, specifically --
|tend to use either turbojets or low-bypass turbofans for two reasons:
|(1) they have a smaller frontal area than high-bypass fanjets, which
|allows a slimmer fuselage, and therefore less drag; and (2) high-bypass 
|engines are more efficient and lower altitudes, which isn't of overriding 
|concern for an interceptor or air superiority fighter (although it would be
|important for a strike or ASW aircraft).

As a matter of fact, doesn't the A-10 use at least low
bypass turbofans? They might even be of the high bypass 
variety.







-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Iskandar Taib                          | The only thing worse than Peach ala
Internet: NTAIB@SILVER.UCS.INDIANA.EDU |    Frog is Frog ala Peach
Bitnet:   NTAIB@IUBACS                 !

Newsgroups: sci.military
From: lesher@elnath.bucknell.edu (T. Lesher)
Subject: Re: Cheap equipment (was Re: depleted uranium)
Organization: Bucknell University, Lewisburg, Pa.
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 18:44:27 GMT


From lesher@elnath.bucknell.edu (T. Lesher)

In article <BsxusD.KHw@lawday.DaytonOH.NCR.COM> pt@geovision.gvc.com (Paul Tomblin) writes:
>
>And what do you do, train two sets of soldiers?  The ones who are well
>protected in their F-16, M-1, etc, and the "cannon-fodder" who get the cheap
>and nasty stuff?  Remember we are talking about _lives_ here, and one person
>is a lot more expensive than one tank.  How do you motivate people to go
>into battle when they know that there are better weapons around, but "the
>brass" decided that they didn't deserve them, and would rather send in 5
>guys in cheap equipment than one in expensive equipment?
>

They do that now, Paul.  They are called Reservists.

Reservists generally have dated equipment (a unit I know has just got
their first Bradleys, moving up from 113's), and are expected to
perform as well as regulars.  I won't speak for all reserve units, but
there are some that can hang with the best active, even with older
equipment and very limited training budgets.  The proof is at NTC.

Tim Lesher  <lesher@bucknell.edu>

"CS Majors-- we do more after 11:00 PM than most people do all day!"
                                -- Dustin Emhart



--
Tim Lesher  <lesher@bucknell.edu>

"CS Majors-- we do more after 11:00 PM than most people do all day!"
                                -- Dustin Emhart

Newsgroups: sci.military
From: scw@ollie.SEAS.UCLA.EDU
Subject: Re: Scots Greys at Waterloo
Organization: UCLA School Of Engineering & Applied Science
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 20:41:07 GMT


From scw@ollie.SEAS.UCLA.EDU


From scw@ollie.SEAS.UCLA.EDU


In article <BsKCBF.DIs@lawday.DaytonOH.NCR.COM> M.J.Rooth@lut.ac.uk (Mike Rooth) writes:
[... long defense of the Scot's Greys ...]
>
>To spike a cannon you have to hammer a spike(or nail) into the
>touch hole,and then file it off flush with the barrel. If you dont
>file it off,the first farrier to come along can remove the spike.

Actually what one did was to drive a headless nail into
the touchhole, until it was flush with the barrel, then the loading
ramrod was used to bend the spike over, this made extraction VERY
difficult.  Remember that at this time the majority of field pieces were
cast from brass.  One would expect that it would take an experienced armourer
several hours to remove the spike and then rebush the touchhole (a touch
hole 8-12mm across is not going work very well, in addition it will erode
very rapidly.

[mod note -- I thought that brass would have been too soft of a metal to
cast a cannon out of.  I would have thought they would have used bronze --
Steve ]

>I dont think that course of action was *really* available to a
>guy trying to hold a maddened warhorse in the other hand,surrounded
>by hostiles and not issued with the necessary tools:-)

-----
Stephen C. Woods; UCLA SEASNET; 2567 BH;LA CA 90024; (310)-825-8614
UUCP: ...{ibmsupt,ncar!cepu}!ollie}!scw  Internet:scw@SEAS.UCLA.EDU
"Non, je ne regrette rien"--1st Para, LE 1963
From: mat@mole-end.matawan.nj.us
Newsgroups: sci.military
Subject: Re: Why execute spies? and Re: depleted uranium
Summary: Hanoi Jane
Date: 19 Aug 92 13:36:29 GMT
Organization: :


From mat@mole-end.matawan.nj.us

In article <BszLMz.G5y@lawday.DaytonOH.NCR.COM>, viking@iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson) writes:
 
> From viking@iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson)
>  creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Steve Creps) writes:
> >>Some exceptions do exist:
> >>(1) Julius and Ethel Rosenberg in 1953[?4?]
> >   I believe they were executed for treason, rather than just espionage.
 
> 	This is correct as far as I know.  In addition, both are automatic
> death sentences.  One wonders why "Hanoi Jane" wasn't sentenced as well in
> the Vietnam action?

One reason is that there was no declaration of war, nor any real, legal
declaration of hostilities, and so the legal sanctions couldn't apply to
her activities, which did not involve secrets but trafficing with the
enemy.  Only there was no enemy (legally).

This is a good time to remind readers of Summers Jr.'s _On Strategy: A
Critical Analysis of the Vietnam War_, which may be the `freshman textbook'
on the subject.
-- 
 (This man's opinions are his own.)
 From mole-end				Mark Terribile

 mat@mole-end.matawan.nj.us, Somewhere in Matawan, NJ
Newsgroups: sci.military
From: dpe@inel.gov (Don Palmrose)
Subject: Re: Breaking in green submariners
Organization: INEL EG&G Idaho
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 13:22:54 GMT


From dpe@inel.gov (Don Palmrose)

In article <Bt8GGI.DrD@lawday.DaytonOH.NCR.COM>, manuelp@ecf.toronto.edu (MANUELPILLAI Gerald Nishanthan) writes:
> 
> 
> From manuelp@ecf.toronto.edu (MANUELPILLAI Gerald Nishanthan)
> 
> 
> I read something really funny in the newspaper the other day -
> 
> Apparently, in one of the US Navy's nuke subs, whenever a new guy
> gets on board, the old hands keep mixing Nair (cream used to remove
> hair from women's legs) in his shampoo.  When the poor sap starts
> to lose his hair, everyone starts muttering about radiations leaks
> and radiation sickness!! 
> 
> Anyone out there who can corroborate or even top this story ? 
> 
> Gerald 
>  
>

Eventhough I went through the US Navy's Nuclear Propulsion Program and DID
NOT volunteer for sub duty (I like to see sunlight on a daily basis), the
Nuclear Power School and prototype training were (and are) staffed mainly by
submariners (or bubbleheads and tubers if you prefer ;-) ).  We would 
occassionally get into telling "sea stories".  One of the things that would be
done as a gag would involved the heads.  Since a sub at depth must over come 
the outside sea pressure to pump anything out of a tank, the sewage tank must 
be pressurized in order to pump it to the sea.  Normally, signs are posted in 
all the heads warning that this operation is occurring, but "sometimes a sign 
may disappear".  Needless to say, when the unsuspecting person goes to flush 
the toilet....

Another "classic" gag is commonly done on really green sailors or (especially)
Midshipmen onboard for a short cruise.  They would convince the person that
the sub would recieve mail at sea via a bouy called the "mail bouy".  Since
for security reasons, the sub could not come to the surface to pick up the
mail bouy, a swimmer would have to swim the last 30 feet and retrieve the
bouy.  So they would tell this guy that when the mail bouy watch was set, he
was to go and put on the scuba gear and wait in one of the escape trunks until
time to retrieve the mail bouy.  I've heard that occassionally they would have
a guy sitting there for acouple of hours.

Don Palmrose
"I'd rather serve on a ship not designed to sink...."






========== long legal disclaimer follows, press n to skip ===========

Neither the United States Government or the Idaho National Engineering
Laboratory or any of their employees, makes any warranty, whatsoever,
implied, or assumes any legal liability or responsibility regarding any
information, disclosed, or represents that its use would not infringe
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Government or the Idaho National Engineering Laboratory.  The views and
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United States Government or the Idaho National Engineering Laboratory,
and shall not be used for advertising or product endorsement purposes.
From: d89-jsp@nada.kth.se
Newsgroups: sci.military
Subject: depleted uranium
Date: 19 Aug 92 13:36:23 GMT
Organization: NCR Corporation - Law Department


From d89-jsp@nada.kth.se


In an article Mr Roberts aswered a question about UO2 and
quoted "Casarett and Doull's Toxicology" (2nd Ed., 1980, p. 460)

An excellent answer. I checked in the supperb book 'General and
nonorganic chemistry' by Gunnar Ha"gg to answer the same question.  I
found that UO2 is one of the most inert compound I have found so far.
More inert that for instance SiO2. UO2 is disolved by sulfuric acid.
With hydrofluoric acid it forms UF4(dangerous) and water. That is, UO2
is perfectly safe, I have unused UO2 fuelcells in my study. All
actinoids behaves more or less like Calcium but U reacts the most
violent. That is, metallic uranium is not likely to be found in the
target. Uranium oxide dust is generaly beleaved to be a cancer threat
but that is exceedingly well explaind by Mr Roberts.

Jan Arthur Sparrendahl
Newsgroups: sci.military
From:     "Edward J. Rudnicki" (FSAC-SID) <erudnick@pica.army.mil>
Subject:  Re: depleted uranium
Organization: NCR Corporation - Law Department
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 20:44:45 GMT


From     "Edward J. Rudnicki" (FSAC-SID) <erudnick@pica.army.mil>




From     "Edward J. Rudnicki" (FSAC-SID) <erudnick@pica.army.mil>


Toby Hughes writes:
#Depleted uranium is, well, depleted.  The effect on the target is the same as
#any other material.  D.U. is used because it is more dense than lead.  It
#sounds scarier than it is, but there is no radiation hazard, if that was the
focus of your question.


DU has two radiation hazards, one minor and one major.

DU is NOT the same as nonradioactive U238. Natural uranium is about 0.7 %
U235, which in addition to being fissile is an alpha and gamma emitter.
DU retains about 0.2 % U235 when it leaves the process stream, as it is
simply not economical to extract all of it.

DU in solid form is a very weak gamma emitter. If you had a KE penetrator
sitting on your desk as a paperweight (wish I did :) the dose you'd receive
would be less than natural variations in background radiation. Except for
certain specific conditions it can be disregarded.

The big concern with DU is that U235 is also a weak alpha emitter. Alpha
radiation is harmless as an external dose (they only travel a few inches
in air), but if an alpha emitter is ingested or inhaled it becomes a
source for localized high doses. Alphas are very damaging; I think only fast
neutrons are worse.

Thus in cases where DU is found as dust, such as in machining operations,
precautions need to be taken to protect personnel. 

Inside a penetrated vehicle is a similar situation, due to the breakup
of the penetrator and the pyrophoric nature of the finely divided material.
I suspect that a vehicle being cannibalized or scrapped would need to be
deconned, using well-established techniques.

All of this information is of course readily available from many open
sources.


Ed Rudnicki     erudnick@pica.army.mil     All disclaimers apply
"It demoralized them. Not to mention killed them."
     --- 3rd AD officer describing effects of DPICM in ODS

Newsgroups: sci.military
From:     "Edward J. Rudnicki" (FSAC-SID) <erudnick@pica.army.mil>
Subject:  Re: Phalanx ammo
Organization: NCR Corporation - Law Department
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 20:47:06 GMT


From     "Edward J. Rudnicki" (FSAC-SID) <erudnick@pica.army.mil>




From     "Edward J. Rudnicki" (FSAC-SID) <erudnick@pica.army.mil>


Tom Schoene writes:
#imagine that we export the DU round to all of the countries which have bought
#Phalanx.  These users probably fire tungsten rounds as the best alternative.


The British at the very least use the DU round. I found this last out while
visiting HMS EDINBURGH in NYC last year. The gunner's mates (or equivalent
RN rating) said they use impermeable gloves when handling it, which is
consistent with the primary hazard associated with DU (ingested/inhaled
internal alpha emitter).


Ed Rudnicki     erudnick@pica.army.mil     All disclaimers apply
"It demoralized them. Not to mention killed them."
     --- 3rd AD officer describing effects of DPICM in ODS

Newsgroups: sci.military
From: steve@lawday.DaytonOH.NCR.COM (Steve Bridges)
Subject: Administrative stuff
Organization: NCR Corporation, Corporate Law Department
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 13:09:47 GMT


From steve@lawday.DaytonOH.NCR.COM (Steve Bridges)


All the e-mail problems seem to be fixed.  Of you are sending postings
directly to me, please use one of the following addresses:

	military@lawday.daytonoh.ncr.com
	sci.military@daytonoh.ncr.com

For additions, deletions, changes, etc for the digest mailing list, use 

	military-request@lawday.daytonoh.ncr.com	

To the person who sent me e-mail about sci.military.news, please re-send
your message.  I seem to have mis-placed it.

Steve
-- 
Steve Bridges, Programmer/Analyst| NCR - Law Department, WHQ-5
steve@lawday.DaytonOH.NCR.COM ___| Phone:(513)-445-4486 622-4486 (VOICEplus)
Reserve sci.military moderator| "The airplane does not recognize attitude,
providing a maneuver is conducted at one G" -- A.M. "Tex" Johnston

Newsgroups: sci.military
From: bwise@hemlock.mitre.org (Barry Wise)
Subject: Re: Autofocus and the Stealth
Organization: The MITRE Corporation
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 13:10:35 GMT
Full-Name: News Service


From bwise@hemlock.mitre.org (Barry Wise)

In article <BtAJDu.Cuz@lawday.DaytonOH.NCR.COM> John Tucker  
<john@phobos.sscl.uwo.ca> writes:
> Given the Stealth's "stealth", how come a commercial autofocus system
> can "lock-on" for a sharp picture?
> 
Stealth in the B-2 sense means lacking radar or infrared emmissions or  
reflectivity which would have no affect on an autofocus camera.

Autofocus cameras usually use an active ranging mechanism such as an infrared  
beam or sound. At the distances the photos were probably taken the camera had  
gone to it's 'infinity' setting anyway, so it wouldn't have mattered if it were  
stealthy or not to the camera.


--
Barry Wise


Newsgroups: sci.military
From: swilliam@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Steve Williams)
Subject: Re: Wake Island (WAS Re: 10 Worst Generals)
Organization: Carderock Division, Naval Surface Warfare Center
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 12:43:43 GMT


From swilliam@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Steve Williams)


In sci.military, mat@mole-end.matawan.nj.us writes:
|>
|>> Actually, Wake repulsed two Japanese attacks before they succumbed in
|>> the third attack.  Wake held out as long as its small air force existed;
|>> soon after its last plane was shot down Wake's defense collapsed. Wake's
|>> planes created a lot of problems for the Japanese invasion group and
|>> kept the Japanese ships at distance.  It was the planes from the Hiryu
|>> and Soryu that wiped out the remainder of Wake's air force, leading
|>> to the downfall of Wake.  It was a lesson in air power.
|>
|>What sort of losses did the Japanese fliers take?  Was the US resistance
|>at Wake a factor in exhausting the pool of accomplished naval pilots?

I doubt that the US resistance at Wake was a factor.  Wake Island started
with 8 aircrafts; upon receiving the word about the Pearl Harbor attack,
four planes were kept in air with the other four on ground on standby.
Prior to the first attack all four planes on ground were unfortunately 
destroyed when the Japanese bombers swung around the island and attacked 
from "rear," catching the Americans by surprise.  The four flying US
fighter planes were positioned as to "meet the Japanese bombers" outside
Wake Island.  So much for this strategy.

The US planes primarily attacked the Japanese ships; I doubt that any
Japanese plane was shot down by US plane.

When the Hiryu and Soryu got close to Wake, these carriers launched 
planes, of which 50% were Zero fighter planes, contrary to the usual 
ratio of 1/3 Zeros, 1/3 Vals, and 1/3 Kates.  The carriers' primary 
mission was to shoot all of the US planes down; as soon as this was 
accomplished, the carriers would soften up the island before the next 
attack.


---------------------------------------------------------------------
 Steve Williams                           swilliam@oasys.dt.navy.mil
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroups: sci.military
From:     "Edward J. Rudnicki" (FSAC-SID) <erudnick@pica.army.mil>
Subject:  Re: M16A1 ammunition vs M16A2 ammunition
Organization: NCR Corporation - Law Department
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 20:47:23 GMT


From     "Edward J. Rudnicki" (FSAC-SID) <erudnick@pica.army.mil>




From     "Edward J. Rudnicki" (FSAC-SID) <erudnick@pica.army.mil>


Just to throw some fuel on the fire: ( :) )

The firing rate of the rifle changes when switching from M193 to
M855 and vice versa.


Ed Rudnicki     erudnick@pica.army.mil     All disclaimers apply
"It demoralized them. Not to mention killed them."
     --- 3rd AD officer describing effects of DPICM in ODS

Newsgroups: sci.military
From: REUSCH@is2.grump.com
Subject: Big John's Clover-leaf
Organization: Grumman Space & Electronics systems - Princeton
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 20:32:39 GMT


From REUSCH@is2.grump.com


From REUSCH@is2.grump.com

	In the book "Top Guns" by Joe Foss and Matthew Brennan,
Pocket Books, N.Y.,N.Y. (1991), P-38 Ace Big John (Colonel John Lowell)
describes, with all the modesty becoming a fighter pilot, the use of
his clover-leaf manuver "I got good strikes on him by using my
clover-leaf tactics." and a fight with Adolf Galland.

	Can anyone describe this clover-leaf tactic? I searched
Shaw's book in vain for any mention of it. Thanks

Michael
reusch@grump.com
Grumman Corporate Research, Princeton


Newsgroups: sci.military