HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Path: CSD-NewsHost.Stanford.EDU!morrow.stanford.edu!decwrl!ames!saimiri.primate.wisc.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!linac!uwm.edu!ogicse!das-news.harvard.edu!husc-news.harvard.edu!husc10.harvard.edu!zeleny
   From: zeleny@husc10.harvard.edu (Mikhail Zeleny)
   Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,talk.politics.soviet
   Date: 25 Jan 93 17:24:31 GMT
   Article-I.D.: husc3.1993Jan25.122432.19779
   References: <C1AL8J.KL@panix.com> <1993Jan25.002034.19768@husc3.harvard.edu> <JMC.93Jan24220019@SAIL.Stanford.EDU>
   Organization: The Phallogocentric Cabal
   Lines: 34
   Nntp-Posting-Host: husc10.harvard.edu

   In article <JMC.93Jan24220019@SAIL.Stanford.EDU>
   jmc@cs.Stanford.EDU writes:

   >There is a distinction to be made between the execution of someone
   >believed and convicted, perhaps wrongly of a crime, and the killing
   >of a 1 1/2 year old baby.  Every bit of restraint is valuable.
   >
   >Even if you believe the execution was motivated by malice and the
   >person was innocent, the distinction is important.  The killing of the
   >baby was a signal for a greatly increased level of killings of
   >innocent people.

   I think you are missing something, Professor.  If the execution of
   Parsons et al. is to be justified by the common belief of their guilt,
   the same logic can be applied to justify the Nazi Judeocide, which
   logically proceeded from the assumption that the Jews were an evil and
   noxious race, congenitally and irremediably deadly to the Aryans.  Come
   to think of it, the same could be said about the feelings a committed
   bolshevik might have had for the members of the Romanov family.

   Should you like to appeal to the distinction of "due process", I entreat
   you to consider the contemporary idea of "Revolutionary justice".  After
   all, your argument turns on the participants' beliefs about their actions
   being just, and not on any immanent aspect of the latter.

   >--
   >John McCarthy, Computer Science Department, Stanford, CA 94305

   cordially,
   mikhail zeleny@husc.harvard.edu

There were inhibitions among the Bolsheviks against killing children,
and these inhibitions were overcome by arguments like those Zeleny
mentions.  Overcoming them was an important step in extending the
terror.
--
John McCarthy, Computer Science Department, Stanford, CA 94305
*
He who refuses to do arithmetic is doomed to talk nonsense.

Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: mwhatt01@ulkyvx.louisville.edu
Subject: Anc. Hist. Novels Summary
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 16:19:35 GMT
Organization: University of Louisville

Thanks to all of you who mailed me here is a summary of the
responses.

Hercules, My Shipmate; King Jesus; Homer's Daughter - Robert Graves
Ancient Evenings - Norman Mailer
<almost anything> - Mary Renault
Barabbas; The Sibyl; The Holy Land; Herod and Marianne; etc - Par Lagerkvist
The Dwarf - Par Lagerkvist (my favorite, but set in the Renaissance)
Soldier of the Mist; <and the sequel> - Gene Wolfe
The Four Wise Men - Michel Tournier
Memoirs of Hadrian - Marguerite Yourcenar
Goatsong; The Walled Orchard - Tom Holt
The Last World - Christopher Ransmayr
Quo Vadis - Henryk Sienkiewicz
Emperor - Colin Thubron
Votan; Not for all the Gold in Ireland - John James
Firebrand - Marion Zimmer Bradley
A Trojan Ending - Laura Jackson (Robert Graves' lover)
<almost anything> - Winifred Bryher
The Dying Gaul - David Jones
Imperial Caesar; Pericles the Athenian - Rex Warner
The Last Temptation of Christ - Nikos Kazantzakis
The Ides of March - Thornton Wilder
Roman Blood - steven Saylor
Arms of Nemesis - Saylor
King Jesus - Graves
Count Belisaurus - Graves
The Memoires of Hadrian - Yourcenar
Gilgamesh - Silverberg
Augustus - Williams
Pillor of Iron - Cadwells
The Green Man - Treece
Serpents Tooth - Paxson
The Egyptian - Waltari
The Source - Michener
The Ranayanal - Menen

This list should keep me busy for awhile.


Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: daq@fc.hp.com (Doug Quarnstrom)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Censorship in the USA
Date: 26 Jan 93 15:21:18 GMT
Article-I.D.: fc.C1GvzJ.4tH
Organization: SPUGE
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1.8 PL6]

Jeffrey A. Del Col (br105@cleveland.Freenet.Edu) wrote:
: 
: The recent thread on censorship in the USA is based on the paranoid
: assumption that there is a conspiratorial form of government in this
: country and what seems to be a nearly perfect ignorance of this country's
: legal system.  If you think that the US as a whole is in a straitjacket of 
: covert official censorship, you are sadly misinformed, as a visit to the 
: bookstores in large cities or near universitys would demonstrate.

No, in my case it was based upon curiosity about the banning of
books here.  Clearly America allows a huge degree of latitude
in literary expression.  I was mostly curious if there was less
censorship here than there was earlier in the century.

doug
From: rhogan@phakt.usc.edu (Ron Hogan)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Iron Joe Bob by Joe Bob Briggs (hard to categorize)
Date: 27 Jan 1993 23:48:51 -0800
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: phakt.usc.edu

Everybody should have a favorite quotation from this excellent book.
Mine, apart from the extended section on film schools, is the
following:

I read the book _The White Goddess_, even the footnotes in Welsh,
and I agree that we should all worship the One Great Big-Breasted
Earth Mother.  In my dreams her name is Monique.
--Joe Bob Briggs

Ron Hogan
ok, so it's repugnant--
it's still funny
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: hayward@biblio.ucs.sfu.ca (Michael Hayward)
Subject: Re: Relative clauses (was: Re: About Truth...)
Reply-To: hayward@sfu.ca
Organization: Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 21:24:45 GMT

In article <1993Jan21.204801.6194@eff.org> mnemonic@eff.org (Mike Godwin)  
writes:
> In article <1993Jan21.174214.11640@sophia.smith.edu>  
orourke@sophia.smith.edu (Joseph O'Rourke) writes:
> >In article <1993Jan21.144644.26694@eff.org> mnemonic@eff.org (Mike  
Godwin) writes:
> >>I'm reminded of a story about a conference of linguistic scholars.
> >>[story deleted]
> >>To which a guy in the back of the hall immediately responded, "Yeah,  
yeah."
> >
> >	I heard that this guy was Saul Kripke.  Can anyone confirm
> >or refute?
> 
> I can refute, I think. I got the story from a New York Times Magazine
> article about Kripke, but the story itself was not about Kripke.
> Or so I recall (the article appeared in the late '70s).
> 
I forwarded the linguistics two stories ("Yeah, yeah" and "Fuck you") to a  
linguist friend of mine. His reply follows:

..Michael Hayward	hayward@sfu.ca

===================================================================

that first story is not apochryphal; it actually happened, but not among
linguists. It was at a lecture delivered at Columbia by some philosophy
professor, and the utterer of 'yeah, yeah' was the illustrious Syndney
Morganbesser from the Columbia philosophy department--a man with a 
(clearly well-deserved) reputation for a scintillating wit. I do like the
second story a lot. There's more going on there than meets the eye: one
could, for example, suppose that 'fuck you' is actually some kind of  
imperative, in which case it becomes no remarkable than any other  
imperative, and could be treated as a sentence with a phonologically  
covert (but syntactically present) subject like other imperative  
constructions (in some approaches, anyway). But there is a celebrated  
paper by the UChicago linguist Jim McCawley proving, by a variety of  
ingenious tests, that the syntax of 'fuck you' diverges markedly from that  
of imperatives. The only way out, one supposes, is to claim that 'fuck  
you!' is not a sentence. I have not attempted to construct arguments to  
this effect, but I imagine it could be done...
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,alt.president.clinton
From: golchowy@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca (Gerald Olchowy)
Subject: Re: Maya Angelou inaugural poem
Organization: University of Toronto Chemistry Department
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 17:00:11 GMT

In article <1993Jan25.020613.22207@oracle.us.oracle.com> mrichter@oracle.uucp (Mark Richter) writes:
>The poem misses someone really *important*. The English. Hey, they only wrote
>the Declaration of Independence, the United States Consitution and founded
>this great country. The poem mentions Germans, Swedes, and about every other
>cult, clan, group and nation under the sun. But, not the English.
>
>Must not be room for the English in this Politically Correct America of the
>90's. What a loss.
>

Angelou also makes one huge politically incorrect faux pas in her
poem using the term "Eskimo" for the Inuit...which is akin to using
the N-word for African Americans...shame on her.  

Gerald
From: mct@praxis.co.uk (Martyn Thomas)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Novels about writers
Date: 26 Jan 93 18:06:35 GMT
Organization: Praxis, Bath, U.K.

I am thoroughly enjoying Flaubert's Parrot, by Julian Barnes.


-- 
		      These are personal opinions only
      Martyn Thomas, Praxis plc, 20 Manvers Street, Bath BA1 1PX UK.
Tel:	+44-225-444700.   Email:   mct@praxis.co.uk 	Fax: +44-225-465205
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: mwhatt01@ulkyvx.louisville.edu
Subject: Ancient History Novels
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 20:06:04 GMT
Organization: University of Louisville

I like reading novels about ancient history but they are gettin increasingly
harder to find.  Here are the ones I've read so far

Creation - Gore Vidal
The first Man in Rome - McCollough
The Grass Crown - McCollough
The Robe - Alexander
I Claudius - Graves
Claudius The God - Graves
Julian - Gore Vidal

Of course most of these are Roman (all but Creation), but I am especially
interested in older time periods.  If you have any suggestions please
mail me.  

Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: stame@emunix.emich.edu (Stewart Tame)
Subject: Re: Looking for out-of-print O.S.Card/H.Ellison
Organization: Eastern Michigan University
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 17:39:04 GMT

In article <C1J7EH.5uu@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> glink@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Gary Link) writes:
>In the from of the HE Hornbook is a list of his books and publishing
>dates up to 1990 when the Hornbook came out.
>
>If you find any, buy doubles if they have them, and drop me a line.

No!  No!  Email me first!

>Don't call Stuart Tame, he really doesn't need them as much as I do.
>Really.

Lies!  Scadalous lies!  She can't even spell my name anyway.  I need all
the Ellison I can get or God will call me home . . . 

		-- Stewart "costing the net hundreds, if not thousands,
				of dollars.  Nyah, nyah!" Tame

****************************************************************************
 I understand it's obligatory to mention Kibo somewhere in one's postings.
****************************************************************************
		Email:  stame@emunix.emich.edu
****************************************************************************
Disclaimer:  Not only do my opinions represent those of Eastern Michigan
University, but also those of Dan Quayle, Richard Nixon, Frank Zappa,
Pee-wee Herman, Bart Simpson, Tipper Gore, Murphy Brown, Maggie Thatcher,
and the Easter Bunny.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: patk@sr.hp.com (Patrick Kearney)
Subject: Breakers (was Bookshops in London)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 19:19:10 GMT
Organization: HP Sonoma County (SRSD/MWTD/MID)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1.9 PL6]



Jim Gillogly writes:

>Which reminds me: <don't> buy the darned individually-framed hand-tinted
>plates from those early 19th-century bound magazine volumes: they break up
>the books and throw away the text.  <Most> annoying!  Since the prints sell
>for #10-20 each, that means they'd need #100 or so to make it cost-effective
><not> to break up the book (which we paid, of course), and normally they
>can't get it.  Grr!  A guy in Bath from whom we bought a bunch of hardbound
>Georgette Heyers said if you're to be a success in the used book trade you
>need to think of your wares as simply commodities: a can of beans, a book,
>whatever.  I think I might make a lousy used book dealer...

These wretches are known in the English -- and American for all I know --
booktrade as "breakers" and in my humble opinion should be treated to 
some suitably 'orrible punishment, like being severely buggered with the
rough end of a pineapple.

--

**********************************     " 'Tis very warm weather when
Patrick Kearney			 *  	one's in bed.' "	
c/o Hewlett-Packard		 *		Jonathan Swift	
1400 Fountaingrove Parkway       *              Journal to Stella 
Santa Rosa, CA 95403.		 *			Oct. 26 1710
				 *
INTERNET: patk@sr.hp.com         *
TELNET: (707) 577-3460           *
**********************************
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: tvorst@ccu.umanitoba.ca (Tommy Che Vorst)
Subject: Re: Biggest Disappointments and Surprises
Organization: University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Canada
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 23:14:17 GMT

In <1993Jan21.004842.16576@csusac.csus.edu> yarnot@babbage.csus.edu (Jan Yarnot) writes:

>She mentioned CRIME AND PUNISHMENT which I had to read for not one, but *two*
 ^^^

>---Jan Yarnot, net.grandma.-- | When you go out into the world,
>			      | watch out for traffic, hold hands,
>                              | and stick together.
>CSUS depends on my every word.|             --Robert Fulghum    

--> Sorry, Jan, but while I know of many males named Jan, I know no
females named Tommy. ;-)

+-------------------------------------------------------------+
Tommy (aka Guy Gadbois)                     Grad Studies, UofM
                email:  tvorst@ccu.umanitoba.ca
        "I have no quarrel with you, good Sir Knight."
                              - the late, great Graham Chapman
My opinions are solely those of my pet bear; you wanna argue
with her, go ahead.
+-------------------------------------------------------------+
From: spb0457@rigel.tamu.edu (SubGenius)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: For Thine is the kingdom
Date: 25 Jan 1993 17:53 CST
Organization: Texas A&M University, Academic Computing Services
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: rigel.tamu.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    


In re my last post in this thread:

Oh, the actual quote is:

	For thine is the kngdom and the power and the glory,
	   for ever.  Amen.

..although I have heard it with an extra `and ever' betwixt the initial
`ever' and the divine toodle-oo.










-SubG

Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: varmette@scsuc.ctstateu.edu (SHIRLEY VARMETTE - SOCIOLOGY)
Subject: Mystery
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Keywords: Mystery, Police Proced., 
Organization: Southern Connecticut State University - Computer Center
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 14:02:00 GMT

I'm new to VNEWS and have enoyed what I've read but am surprised to NOT
find discussions, etc. of mysteries.  !!!!!

I read a group devoted just to AM and PERN under s/fiction.  !?

I use mysteries to unwind, as I'm sure most do.  I'm not an avid fan who
can claim to have read ALL Agatha Christie, etc.  I can say I've read just
about all of Tony Hillerman's and wonder when there will be another.  I
also wonder whatever happen to the movie that was to have been made based
on one of his?  I remember at the time reading that there was considerable
discussion/debate as to which actor would play the main character.


Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,sci.philosophy.meta,talk.religion.misc
From: gsmith@polyhymnia.iwr.uni-heidelberg.de (Gene W. Smith)
Subject: Re: Hare Hare?  (Re: Geometry = the mind of God.)
Followup-To: talk.religion.misc
Organization: IWR, University of Heidelberg, Germany
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 93 18:32:19 GMT

In article <1993Jan18.174011.1543@pbhyc.PacBell.COM>
djdaneh@PacBell.COM (Dan'l DanehyOakes) writes:

>With all the goodwill in the world and no desire to put down anyone else's
>religion, I've found you can get remarkable results by chanting:

>	Larry Moe Larry Moe Moe Moe Larry Larry
>	Larry Curly Larry Curly Curly Curly Larry Larry

>They aren't the *same* results you get by chanting the KRSNA chant, but they
>*are* remarkable.

>Especially if you do it in a public place.

I got some pretty funny looks when I walked down the steet chanting
stuff like this.  One I've used is

Harry Krishna
Harry Rama
And Rama's Mama
From Alabama

Another favorite was

Hare Nixon Hare Reagan
Nixon Nixon
Ronald Reagan.

Fortunately for my sanity, my urge to do this chants seems to have
departed since I left Berkeley and the constant exposure to the
authorized version of these.



-- 
     Gene Ward Smith/Brahms Gang/IWR/Ruprecht-Karls University 
               gsmith@kalliope.iwr.uni-heidelberg.de
From: spp@zabriskie.berkeley.edu (Steve Pope)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Censorship
Date: 27 Jan 1993 00:42:23 GMT
Organization: U.C. Berkeley -- ERL
NNTP-Posting-Host: zion.berkeley.edu

Mike Godwin writes:

>>> Freedom of the press and freedom of speech have both improved
>>> significantly in this country in the last three decades.
>>
>>I'm wondering, Mike, how you figure this is the
>>case.
>
>I follow the cases.

Which is exactly why I asked you...
>
>>  I've witnessed the opposite.  There is the
>>Reagan/Bush led crackdown on pornography: including
>>seizing bookstores under RICO and seizure laws;
>>mail-order porno sting operations; ....
>
>Nevertheless, it's easier to get porn and to sell it now than it was in,
>say, 1963. 

Sure it's easier to get porn, because the public's
tastes for porn, and the size of the porno market, have
expanded.  But the *tactics* in use now -- seizures of
entire bookstores, and stings -- were not to my knowledge in use 
30 years ago.  It's possible for censorship to be worse but
porn to still be more available.  I measure censorship by
the number of items supressed, not the number that get
through.

Your remaining points are well taken.


Steve
From: dprezios@ep.ieee.org (D Preziosi)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Novels about writers
Date: 26 Jan 93 15:45:12 GMT
Reply-To: dprezios@ep.ieee.org
Organization: IEEE, New York, NY

In article 42051@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu, arc2@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (AMY CHARLES) writes:
> Anybody read any good books w/writer as protagonist lately?  I just finished
> Anthony Burgess' *Earthly Powers*.  Not as symphonic as *Any Old Iron*, but
> still pretty damn impressive.  Also recommend (no sneering, now) *Fools Die*,
> by Mario Puzo.  Best casino book I've read, too, w/much better characters than
> the Godfather pulp.
> 
> Amy Charles
> Allentown PA


Roth's "The Ghost Writer" is high on my list, as is Updike's Bech series.
Also, most recently, I read Paul Auster's "Moon Palace," which really
gets into nuts-and-bolts stuff AND discusses fact v. fiction and the influence
of each on the other. The protagonist is not a "writer" so much as 
a chronicler, but the novel is clearly about (among other things) writing.
From: cramer@optilink.COM (Clayton Cramer)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Homeschooling
Date: 20 Jan 93 22:31:12 GMT
Organization: Optilink Corporation, Petaluma, CA

In article <1jf9vs$iuo@agate.berkeley.edu>, spp@zabriskie.berkeley.edu (Steve Pope) writes:
> Out here in the People's Republick of Berkeley, we
> are blessed with an enlightened society in which children
> are no longer regarded as their parent's chattel.

No, they have become the chattel of the state.  Sieg heil,
you liberal fascist.

> Steve
> 
> p.s. if you come out here to visit, don't forget
> your passport...

It sounds like something armored would be more appropriate.

-- 
Clayton E. Cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer  My opinions, all mine!
"When freedom destroys order, order will destroy freedom." -- Eric Hoffer
Not a goal, just a statement of reality.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: ltm@cns.nyu.edu (Laurence T. Maloney)
Subject: Re: Ancient History Novels
Reply-To: ltm@cns.nyu.edu
Organization: New York University
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 08:52:43 GMT


Graves, Hercules My Shipmate
	Homer's Daughter
	Belisarius  <--- especially rec'd

Mary Renault, Three Alexander novels [blah, blah, The PErsian Boy]
		several others

M. Yourcenar, Memoirs of Hadrian 

novel-like history

Gavin de Beer, Hannibal
Plutarch, Lives

------

L



Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: akiy@siva.cs.titech.ac.jp (Akiyama Jun)
Subject: Re: Paradise Lost
Reply-To: akiy@cs.titech.ac.jp
Organization: Tokyo Institute of Tech., Dept. of Computer Science, Japan
	<1993Jan26.150410.19822@husc3.harvard.edu>
Distribution: rec
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 06:27:35 GMT

(Nathan Rose advises:)
> There's a slim volume by C.S.Lewis called A Preface to Paradise Lost. That's
> the place to start.

Many people have recommended the C.S. Lewis book, so I will try
searching through the few bookstores around here for it.  (Now, only
if rec.arts.books published a "Bookstores in/around Tokyo" list...
Maybe I'll try someday...)

Thanks for the advice.

	Jun
 
--
           akiy@cs.titech.ac.jp|Amiga/Mac/IBM/NeXT/NEC (ugh)/Unix-box User   
UCLA undergrad, studying abroad|"False ideas may be refuted indeed by argument,
  Tokyo Institute of Technology| but by true ideas alone are they expelled."
    Natural Language Processing| ---John Henry Newman, _Apologia Pro Vita Sua_
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: s1mbm@isuvax.iastate.edu (michael bruce mcdonald)
Subject: Lauren Crawford on *The Crying Game* (Spoilers)
Reply-To: s1mbm@isuvax.iastate.edu
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, Iowa
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 02:00:43 GMT

Lauren, I agree completely with your assessment of Dell's impact on 
Fergus.  I think what we see enacted so beautifully in this film is
the power of the humanity in us--if, like Fergus, we can let that which
is in us *be*--rather than the "power of the androgyne," as such.  I
really am going to read *SP* soon; given the quotes about Amelia Earhart
etc. that have been posted to this list, and given everything I've heard
Paglia say publically about Madonna, it's clear to me that Paglia is
consumed above all images of such folk.  Thus, for her Earhart's image
suggests a powerfully assertive female who let no man stand in her way.
This is undoubtedly true, so far as it goes, but I also like to think of
the Earhart who was as vulnerable as most of us, who most likely 
experienced not so much the dauntless assertiveness for which she is justly
honored as a great deal of very human uncertainty and anguish during her
final moments on the earth.

The beauty of Dell's portrayal is that this character is not allowed merely
to image the androgyne, but rather that she/he comes to instance the
vulnerability which truly unites us all (at least, those of us that ain't
scorpions), regardless of the differences which the film is at great
pains to foreground, but for which it finally does not *settle*.

thanks,
michael
From: francis@oas.stanford.edu (Francis Muir)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Deconstructing Angelou
Date: 22 Jan 1993 03:41:36 GMT
Organization: Stanford Exploration Project
NNTP-Posting-Host: oas.stanford.edu

Lewis H Mammel, Jr. writes:

	The RABworm writes:

		Benjamin John McCall quotes the Inaugural Poem:

			... the mastadon, the dinosaur 
			who left dry tokens of their sojourn 
			here on our planet floor ...

		William Safire, of the New York Times, remarked that 
		this conjured up for him an image that he was not 
		certain Angelou had intended. 

	I couldn't find anything by William Safire to this effect in 
	today's NYT. ( He did have a column devoted to Clinton's speech 
	( he gave it a B+. )) Did this appear somewhere else? ... or am 
	I just missing it ?  Any help ?

The two clues were "of" not "in" the NYT and "remarked". The Tube.
McNeill/Lehrer, I think. I don't read the NYT. It would dishonor my
Godfather, the great typographer Eric Gill, to do so.

						RABworm
>
>Lew Mammel, Jr.


Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,comp.graphics.visualization