From: yjhbhc@dante.lbl.gov (Joe Huang)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american
Subject: Re: Caucasians don't understand
Date: 22 Aug 1992 08:47:34 GMT
Organization: Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory, Berkeley
Reply-To: yjhbhc@dante.lbl.gov (Joe Huang)
NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.3.254.106

Finally got some time to respond to Mike's post :-)

In article <1992Aug18.145155.1293@island.COM> fester@island.COM (Mike Fester) writes:

>While I went abroad as an adult, that is NOT true of at least 3 of the friends
>to whom I was referring. All of them had fathers who travelled (no, not Army
>Brats) all over the world. One of my friends was raised mostly in Nigeria, Leb-
>anon, (before it all fell apart), and Abbu Dabbis. He had none of the 
>"advantages" you mention. 
>
>As for the advantages in a crunch, my friend and his father were attacked by
>men with machine-guns both in Nigeria and in Beirut. They survived unharmed, 
>however, they assuredly did NOT, Mr Huang, find themselves "buffered" from
>"whatever unpleasant incidents that may occur". 

I'm sure there are bound to be horror stories with the number of 
Americans travelling and working in all parts of the world. I've
also looked down the barrel of a gun in Pakistan and got tear-gassed
in South Korea, but I blame my own curiosity for those incidents.
What I was referring to is the network of embassies and military
presence abroad that try to keep expatriates out of harm's way. For
example, I was given evacuation plans in both Pakistan and Korea
of what to do in case of emergencies (run to the embassy or to Camp
Walker !). Granted that such plans are not foil-proof and there have
been Americans who have been kidnapped and killed, but my point was 
that the expatriate American experience, which I have experienced, 
is priviledged in many ways, economically, socially, and politically. 
One of the most ironic memories I have is of watching a Saturday
softball game at the embassy compound in Islamabad, followed by a
barbecue.  For all you know, these people could have been in Peoria.

Now, your friends might have been roughing it more than the embassy
crowd, but still, unless they were left-over flower children, I bet
their fathers were drawing American salaries many times that of the
locals, and I doubt that they had cut off their ties to America and
were assimilating into those cultures. Although I like talking 
about expatriate experiences, this is digressing away from the point 
of equating such experiences with the minority experience in the U.S. 
At the risk of redundancy, I think the expatriate can relate to SOME, 
but not ALL, of the experiences of an Asian American. Reduced to the 
starkest terms, comparing the two would be like comparing the 
internment of Japanese Americans in WWII to a POW experience. 
Both experiences are ugly, but in one case, the perpetrators are
people of the society to which you belong, while in the other, 
they are outsiders with whom you share no bond. The impact of
this difference on people's emotions and reactions is very large.
For example, when I was in Korea I heard some pretty atrocious
stereotypes about the Chinese from drunken acquaitances, but those 
were easy to laugh off since I wasn't trying to land a job or 
get ahead of Mr. Kim. On the other hand, when a bunch of teenagers
in Connecticut made derogatory sing-song noises and pulled their eyes 
as I drove by, it bothered me for several hours and made me
wonder, "how long do I have to put up with this shit ? "

>>When I mentioned to one friend that he was getting hypersensitive 
>>about trivial slights, his reaction was "well, you don't know what 
>>it's like, because you look just like one of them.." (sound familiar??).
>
>Sounds rather like you agree that some of us HAVE been discriminated against.
>And actually, I've never complained about it. After all, it *IS* their country.

Well, goodie for you (I mean it). There are also a lot of Asian 
Americans doing quite well here in spite of various barriers and
unpleasant experiences. My point was that, from my experiences, 
white Americans have just as thin skins as anyone else, and many
even more so because they have never had to deal with being in 
the minority. Because of what I've witnessed, I am very skeptical
of being preached to about how good it is to not seeing color, etc.
(I admit hearing it from a South African Black would make more 
of an impact on me...)

Anyway, in answer to your question, I did not think that my 
coworkers in Korea were mistreated because of their race. In my
view, the friend I alluded to was just freaking out from culture
shock, unless you consider 8 year-olds shouting "Miguksaram" (American)
as you walk by to be racial discrimination. In fact, I was mildly
envious that those Miguksaram who became the toast of every party
because they could speak Korean competently.  With my Asian features, 
I was held to a stricter standard with amusing questions like,
"Where is your home town? Your dialect sounds unusual!", or 
"Are you retarded? You speak funny!". In an offhanded way, I took
those to be the most sincere compliments about my Korean (which
unfortunately has decayed over the years..)  Getting back to your
last point, though, yes, it is _their_ country, but put yourself
in the place of an Asian American who encounters racial discrimination
in this country, and you can see where that mindset fails. That's
why I say again that expatriates experience SOME of the experiences
of minorities here.
>
>>As for the level of racism, it seems strange to congratulate 
>>the "U.S. and a few European nations" for being less discriminatory
>>in light of past history and the continuing racial tensions in 
>>these countries (I hope I don't need to go into gory details). 
>
>"Congratulate"? Hardly. Bear in mind however, that the two other nations you 
>mention above have no laws at all protecting anyone against discrimination
>on racial grounds.

I do not disagree that personal rights are better protected in this
country, which since the Civil Rights Movement in the late Sixties
has been applied to racial discrimination. America should be applauded
for this trend, but then America has had to deal with such a legacy of 
racism (slavery, race riots, Chinese Exclusion, etc.) that has 
permeated social interactions down to today that it's impossible to 
compare its racial track record to other countries. Many nations
do not have laws against racial discrimination because they do not
have a racial mix like the U.S.  For Korea and Pakistan, one can 
only talk about discrimination between ethnic or regional differences,
such as between Pathan and Sindhi or between Chollado and Kyongsangdo
people. I won't pretend to be a legal expert of either country and
can't say whether they have laws for or against such type of
discrimination, but I know that the people there talk about such
problems, and that the more farsighted ones do try to work things
out for the good of the country. America has laws on racial 
discrimination because that's where the big social cleavages are.

>
>>From my travels, I frankly cannot say that there is more or less
>>racism in these "enlightened countries" compared to elsewhere.
>
>IF you are discriminated against in this country, you have recourse to legal
>action to try to correct what you feel to be an injustice. This is NOT true
>most other places, as you no doubt know from your travels. Perfect? No. But
>it IS better than nothing. 
>

Yes, it's better than nothing, but then, how many of us have actually
taken someone to court for racial discrimination, and of the ones that
do, how often do they have an uplifting experience or a big legal 
battle of wits?  My comment was based on my experiences around the
world which leaves me with unanswered questions on why there seems
a latent bedrock of racism in the U.S.  Even reading SCAA, I get the
idea that it's common sense to expect "rednecks"  when travelling
through many parts of the U.S., and an undertone from some white 
liberals of "hey, if you think I'm bad, you should see the people
where I grew up...".  In fairness, I say that I've met nice people
in all parts of the U.S.  On the other hand, the U.S. and Canada
are also the only places out of four continents and 15+ countries
where I've ran into gratuitous racism from strangers because of how
I look (racial slurs, mimic Oriential babble, etc.).  I never had
any problems in Korea, but of course you can attribute that to me
not looking different.  But then, in Pakistan I got a lot of 
attention (once time surrounded by 30+ grade school boys in Lahore 
like a bogus movie star), but it was all very good-natured,
very friendly ("Hello. Where are you from?  My name is Mohammed..."),
and not at all threatening. In Italy, I got stares and kids
muttering "Cinese" to each other, but once I spoke some Italian,
the stares generally turned to smiles and friendly exchange. 
Because of such memories, I just don't have a feeling that because
I'm in the ole' US of A, I'm living in an oasis of racial 
enlightenment.

>Mike

Joe
Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american