From: jjohnson@ccscola.Columbia.NCR.COM (Jeffrey H. Johnson)
Subject: Re: Bass Ackwards GURPS Attribute Modifier Method
Keywords: GURPS Attribute
Organization: NCR CCSD Columbia SC
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 92 16:07:03 GMT

In article <3336@bcstec.ca.boeing.com> hall@bcstec.ca.boeing.com (Robert J. Hall) writes:

[unattributed text from previous posts deleted]

>*SIGH* Back to basic physics. A Human is close to twice the height of a
>Dwarf. Given the same ST score, the Human will have much more leverage than
>a Dwarf. He can use his height to advantage during combat with greater
>leverage and reach. These factors are not included in the rules, but they
>should be. The same ST score is more useful to a Human than a Dwarf. There-
>fore a human should pay more for the same ST total. Perhaps the various
>rules should be modified to include factors such as leverage. If you treat
>all the races the same when it comes to points, then they just become humans
>with weird names.

Ah, but GURPS is not a basic physics text.  ST does not equate to the physics
concept of power, or energy, or whatever.  According to the rules, a Human
and a Dwarf with the same ST score will be able to lift, one-handed, the
same amount of weight.  Leverage, if applicable (and it is), is already
incorporated into the ST score.  Therefore, the Human and the Dwarf should
pay the same amount of points for the same ST score.  Your point seems to
be "GURPS screwed up one concept (leverage), and if they had fixed it the
way I think it should be fixed, then they would be justified in charging
different races differently for ST."  Of course, your argument needs more
modification when applied to Halflings.  Halflings have the same leverage
problem that Dwarves do, but ST costs them *MORE* since they have a -4
modifier.

[unattributed text from previous posts deleted]

>  Your grasp of the obvious is noted. However, I disagree with your state-
>ment that it does not matter how the character compares to the rest of the
>race. A very weak Giant IS at a disadvantage when dealing with members of
>his or her own race, and may be at a disadvantage when dealing with the
>other races as well. This pathetically puny Giant is probably a social
>outcast, and the other races will enjoy beating the bejeavers out of it
>just for the joy of finally being able to thrash a Giant.

If this is the case, there are plenty of disads available to cover it (Enemy,
Social Stigma, perhaps even Appearance if he appears particularly sickly).
If you are playing a campaign with nothing but Giants, then yes, zero all
of the costs to the lowest common denominator (Giant).  If other races exist,
and in particular the "base race" for your campaign is human (which is the
case in GURPS Fantasy), then your grasp of the obvious needs work. :)

>  Likewise, an 18 ST halfling will have an additional benefit in melee
>combat because the opponents will tend to underestimate it. Why defend
>yourself against a 'puny' Halfling when there is a more dangerous Human
>opponent to face. WHAM! That Halfling proceeds to cleave you in half with
>a butter knife...

Actually, no, since a butter knife (dagger) has a maximum damage listed.
Perhaps we should arm him with a better weapon to make your point valid.
And if I underestimate the halfling with a two-handed sword, I get what
I deserve.  The only reason to underestimate him is appearance, and I can
just as easily take a 96-lb. human with ST 18 and expect to get
underestimated.  The only difference is that it costs the Halfling points
to be underestimated, and not the Human.

[remainder of post concerning the head-in-the-sand approach to problem-
solving deleted.]

I agree that it is not enough to claim that the rules don't cover it.
My proposed solution (which I'll be using in my next campaign) -
All races purchase stats at the same cost.  The only difference is
in the cost applied against the disadvantage limit.  For a stat with
a postive modifier, treat the stat as if it were that many levels lower
when determining how much it counts against the disadvantage limit.  For
example, a Reptile Man (ST +4) with a ST of 10 (0 cost) is treated as if
he were a Human with ST 6 when determining how much it counts against
his disadvantage limit.  For a stat with a negative modifier, treat as
if it were that many levels higher.  Thus, a Halfling (ST -4) could take
a ST of 4 and stiil have a full complement of disads.

Jeff
--
Jeffrey H. Johnson
jjohnson@ccscola.columbiasc.ncr.com

		"More human than human is our motto."
			-- Dr. Eldon Tyrell