From: DWagner@uh.edu (David Wagner)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Decisions on homosexuality by the Presbyterian judicial
        commission
Date: 20 Nov 92 06:55:32 GMT

I write this as an ex-Presbyterian, who is now a WELS Lutheran.

I'd like to encourage, first of all, the PCUSA to strive for unity
of faith, doctrine and practice, based on the clear revelation which
God has given us in the Holy Scriptures.

I believe that the recent actions of the Permanent Judicial Commission
of the PCUSA have been helpful in this regard.  Unrepentant sinners
must be admonished.  Those who serve as elders in the church whose
sin becomes public knowledge must be admonished publicly, 1 Tim 5:20.

The church, and also each individual Christian, is called to make
a clear confession of faith, and to avoid those who divide the
church by teaching false doctrine (Romans 16:17).  

The problem that the PCUSA faces, of course, is that it is
not united on the question of whether homosexuality is sinful or
not.  If they believe it is sinful, then they cannot knowingly
ordain homosexuals.  Nor can they allow those who confess to
homosexuality after being ordained to remain.

Sin, once we know of it, cannot be ignored.  In this regard God spoke
to Ezekiel the words:

	"Son of man, I have made you a watchman for the house of 
	Israel; so hear the word I speak and give them warning
	from me.  When I say to the wicked, `O wicked man, you
	will surely die,' and you do not speak out to dissuade
	him from his ways, that wicked man will die for his sin,
	and I will hold you accountable for his blood.  But
	if you do warn the wicked man to turn from his ways and 
	he does not do so, he will die for his sin, but you will
	have saved yourself."
	--Ezekiel 33:7-9

Show compassion on unrepentant sinners, admonishing them with
the Law and comforting those who repent with the Gospel.  Their
eternal fate is at stake.

If the PCUSA believes homosexuality is not sinful, then they should
say so. Nor can they put any barrier in the homosexual's way--except
perhaps the requirement that an elder of the church have a good
reputation with outsiders (1 Tim 3:7), and above reproach (1 Tim 3:2).

Yet I am not interested in discussing homosexuality at this time.  I
would like to focus on the issue of spiritual and doctrinal unity.

I have little doubt that the majority of men and women in the pews of
the PCUSA believe that homosexuality is sinful.  If the PCUSA were to
make a clear, unambiguous statement to the contrary, I think many of
these people would leave--presumably in order to join a church that
was more faithful to the Word.  But because the PCUSA is not united,
it cannot make a clear, unambiguous statement one way or the other.
And people are taught that in Christian love, they should tolerate
diversity of doctrine--which is a teaching I find nowhere in 
scripture.  It is not God pleasing when a church winks at the
teaching of false doctrine.  "Do two walk together unless they
have agreed to do so?" (Amos 3:3)

These three New Testament ordinances for the church: spiritual
unity, clear confession and witness, and the avoidance of 
false teachers, are intimately related.  The church that does
not discipline or avoid false teachers, can have no spiritual
unity.  God does not desire a mere outward and purely external
unity and peace in his church.  This is why Jesus said,

	"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the
	earth.  I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.
	For I have come to turn a man against his father,
	a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law
	against her mother-in law--a man's enemies will
	be the members of his own household."
	--Matthew 10:34.

Certainly when a church is being subverted by false teachers on a
question such as, for example, the acceptance of homosexuality, all
parties have an obligation to make a clear confession of faith on the
matter.  A seminary student, for example, who identifies herself as a
lesbian woman, has a clear obligation to make a clear confession as to
whether she believes this to be an aspect of her sinful nature or of
her christian nature, and if she believes it to be sin, whether she
repents.  And certainly whomever has the authority to ordain her has a
clear obligation to find out where she stands on the matter.  This is
principally a question of doctrinal qualification rather than moral
qualification--although the elder must still be `above reproach.'

It is fundamentally dishonest for a Presbytery to say that they will
not ask a seminary graduate about their sexual orientation--
particularly when the church as a whole has said that homosexuals
should not be ordained.  They ought to at least ask where the student
stands on the doctrinal question.  Are they, for example, in
agreement with the church's statements on the matter?

This much being said, I feel I also have an obligation to make
a clear confession, that it cannot be God-pleasing to ordain and
call a woman to "teach and have authority over a man" (1 Tim 2:12).
The pastoral office, as I understand it, necessarily involves such
teaching authority.  This, however, is a question that we have
just recently discussed.

One aspect of this problem that has not been discussed, is "Who
is responsible for the operation of the seminaries?"  The answer
is, few modern protestant churches operate their own seminaries.
The PCUSA, and its antecedents, has not done so for decades.
They have no control over what is taught to those who are preparing
to preach in PCUSA pulpits.  All they can do is examine graduates
before ordaining them. I submit that it is fairly evident that
this has amounted to almost no doctrinal control at all. Hence,
no doctrinal unity.

"Join with others and follow my example, brothers, and take note
of those who live according to the pattern we gave you.  For,
as I have often told you before and now say again even with tears,
many live as enemies of the cross of Christ.  Their destiny is 
destruction, their god is their stomach, and their glory is
their shame.  But our citizenship is in heaven.  And we eagerly
await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by
the power that enables him to bring everything under his control,
will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his
glorious body."
--Philippians 3:17-21

David H. Wagner
a confessional Lutheran		"Buy the truth and do not sell it."
				Proverbs 23:23a

The opinions expressed herein are the author's and not those of
The University of Houston.

[I can't speak for the PCUSA as a whole, but I can report the reaction
of two pastors with rather different orientations.  One is fairly
liberal.  The other is an evangelical, whose background is in a
conservative denomination.  In fact I am inclined to think we might be
better off clarifying everything and having clear confessions, with an
understanding that the result would probably be a split equivalent to
the one earlier in the century.  Both of these pastors believe this is
a bad idea.  They point out that few of our people are entirely happy
with the current situation.  Even those who do not favor ordination of
homosexuals believe that our current position causes us problems both
in dealing with our own homosexual members and in evangelism.  But
most people are also not convinced that they can justify a change in
the position Biblically.  When I ask what they expect to happen, the
response of both is that they believe that the Holy Spirit is still
present in the Church, and with so many people praying for insight,
they still hope we will come to a better understanding.

The PCUSA is not a conservative church in which a small number of
people want to change our position.  It is a church in which women are
ordained, and in which inerrancy is not taught.  I've read accounts of
the GA a couple of years ago which dealt with this issue, and talked
with someone who was there.  I also read both the majority and
minority reports on human sexuality, which the GA was reacting to.
Even the minority report suggested that it might be a good idea to
recognize monogamous homosexual commitments in some formal way.  Even
the majority at the GA who strongly rejected the report on sexuality
wanted to find something other than unambiguous condemnation for the
homosexuals in our midst (and did not seem to regard "hate the sin but
love the sinner" as a complete solution).

I can understand that you'd rather see the PCUSA come to agree with
you.  But it does not.  Those who do -- at least among clergy and
other leaders -- have left, as you have.  Calls for a return to clear
statements of conservative doctrine simply do not apply to our
situation.  We have already rejected the basis of your position, which
is inerrancy and the approach to the Bible that goes with it.  We have
rejected many of the consequences of that position, and we have at
least some doubts even in the area of homosexuality.  There is
probably some difference between the people in the pew and our
leaders.  Indeed our leaders are farther to the left than I am.  But
that does not mean that the bulk of our members believe in inerrancy
and are being deceived by their leaders.  As one of our pastors
pointed out, in the merger with the southern church, we gave churches
that came from the southern church the option of moving from the
denomination with their property intact.  If people at the level of
individual churches thought the denomination was going astray, we
would have expected to see a number of churches withdraw right before
their freedom to do so expired.  The number of withdrawls was small.
While it is true that the bulk of our members are not ready for
ordination of homosexuals, the bulk of our members are also not
interested in withdrawing from a process whose direction is
definitely pointed away from the fundamentalist position.

The question we have to look at is how to handle a period of
transition, where few are entirely happy with either of the extreme
positions, and no one sees any good intermediate position.  Praying
for the Holy Spirit to show us the way has a lot to be said for it.

--clh]