From: exukjb@exu.ericsson.se (ken bell)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc,alt.atheism
Subject: Re: Overpopulation
Date: 8 Sep 92 19:14:51 GMT
Organization: Ericsson Network Systems, Inc.

In article <1859ulINNdh7@shadow.ksu.ksu.edu> yohan@shadow.ksu.ksu.edu (Jonathan W Newton) writes:
>From: yohan@shadow.ksu.ksu.edu (Jonathan W Newton)
>Subject: Re: Overpopulation
>Date: 3 Sep 1992 10:11:17 -0500


>In article <laa18gINNpi8@exodus.Eng.Sun.COM>, emarsh@hernes-sun.Eng.Sun.COM (Eric Marsh) writes:
>>In article <182hevINN5sg@sam.ksu.ksu.edu> yohan@sam.ksu.ksu.edu (Jonathan W Newton) writes:
>>>
>>>First, I don't see why the people against overpopulation care.  I'm guessing that
>>>they are all from the U.S., which is barely affected by overpopulation, domestic
>>>or foreign.
>>
>>From my perspective, the very fact that you ask this question shows a
>>rather selfish mindset. You are in essence saying, If overpopulation 
>>doesn't effect me, why should I care? 

>Of course I have a selfish mind set, ask graham mathews.  If you want to start a
>thread about the virtues of selfishness, just give the word.  

>>
>>If I had your mindset, I guess I'd become a Republican. However, I 

>Being a republican depends on what tax bracket you are in.  Furthermore, if you
>are in the uper 5-10%, I'd argue that voting republican would hurt you in the
>long term.  Along these lines, IMHO we should be helping to develop economic
>infrastracture in 3rd world nations, since sharing the wealth can be a long term
>advantage.  If overpop is an iumpediment, THEN deal with it.

>>believe that as a member of a society one has a certain obligation to
>>improving the well being of members of that society. I consider myself
>>to be a world citizen, and as such I believe I have an obligation to
>>try to improve the quality of life of all living creatures of this 
>>world that I'm a member of, if I can do so in some way.

>Isn't that sweet.  So, are you a member of peace corps?  Did you cry when
>communism fell?  Are you a member of the socialist party?  Are you really going
>all out to rectify social inequality around the world or do you just claim to
>care to give yourself warm fuzzies?


>>
>>>Secondly, if you think foreign overpopulation is hurting the environment, that
>>>damage is nothing compared to the damage done by industrialized nations with 
>>>low population growth.  There are much more important things to bitch about that
>>>foreign overpopulation in an environmental light.
>>
>>Yes, overpopulation is hurting our environment. I define overpopulation
>>as a population that is not sustatinable. I guess that means that we
>>are overpopulated too.

>You still don't answer my question.  If you really cared about the environment,
>you'd start with voting Bush out of office, and get someone who will hammer down
>on industrialized nations.  If you think we are overpopulated, you couldn't be
>more mistaken.  The U.S. has near 0% pop growth, and will always have a food
>surplus.  The U.S. will never go hungry.


>>
>>>Third, you're probably going to get your wish, because aids will devistate the
>>>3rd world.
>>
>>Not the way I'd like things to be, but I guess that if humanity can not
>>manages its own affairs, nature will do that for us.

>BUT WHAT ABOUT THE LOSS OF HUMANITY???  How can you live with the thought?  So
>it's a mortal sin for man to ignore the problems of his neighbors, but it is ok
>for "nature" to totally ream the majority of humankind.

>>
>>>Jon Newton
>>
>>Eric


>Jon Newton

First, sooner or later it probably *will* become necessary to debate the 
virtues of selfishness; and the equalizers will have to be met on their 
own collectivist turf.  Second, as we all know the US govt has been paying 
farmers *not* to grow in order to "raise prices" for a long time (since the 
40's I think--refer to my fictive letter "Not Raising Hogs" posted a few 
weeks back), and this is evidence that agricultural surplus is the rule 
rather than the exception, and that it is only due to the govt regs, 
subsidies, and perks to farmers in this country that has given rise to the 
allegations of agrigultural scarcity. Third, and finally, IMHO: the 
environmental scare has its source in some very high places in this, and in 
other, countries, and seems to me to be little more than an attempt to get 
industrialized nations to fork over more tax money to the IMF and World Bank 
to finance the building of infrastructures in third-world countries, mostly 
to the benefit of the large international financial centers. The formula is: 
Tax the poor in rich countries and give it to the rich in poor countries. 

The environmental wackos and the collectivists should consider just how much 
they depend on the rich capitalists whom they despise.

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