From: cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
Subject: Re: Women and Men Witches
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: 12 Nov 92 00:11:44 GMT

In article <1992Nov11.203846.24614@u.washington.edu> mkkuhner@phylo.genetics.washington.edu (Mary K. Kuhner) writes:
>Female supremacy, in my opinion, hurts women.  It denies us the joys 
>of full partnership with men in the Craft; it gets in the way of our 
>love affairs; it prevents equal sharing of responsibility and reward.
>I find it ironic that a man is pushing this dubious 'priviledge' at
>women, but I don't want it no matter where it comes from.

Wonderfully said.  Women have been put on the old supposed pedestals as
guardians of morality and all that trash before; what's to say it won't
happen now.  I'm getting off the thing and getting dirt between my toes,
thank you very much.

If Stephen wants to think as he does, that is his right, and practically
speaking, at least it's one less man I have to be worried about when I
walk home at night.  But, I will allow no one to tell me what I should
be to satisfy their ideas of what women are.  I am ME, and that's as far
as it needs to go.  We've been through this before. 

>If you want to oppose power-over, you have to do more than reinstating
>it with a different group on top.

Z Budapest once said, "Lady Goddess [or something to that effect], save
us from Jahveh in drag!"  I like it.

>Since the previous occupant of my house was active in the Men's
>Spirituality movement, I get a lot of mailings from them.  Many men
>feel that they've been badly hurt by their 'priviledged' position--
>denied closeness to their fathers, expression of their weaknesses and
>doubts, pushed into competitiveness and violence.  Why on earth would I,
>wish this kind of thing on my daughters?  (Or my sons, for that matter!)

I hope the men's movement is helping people.  The things I heard about
it have not been terribly complimentary.  I recall hearing something
about a seminar given by Robert Bly where someone in the audience asked
about "how we can get in touch with out feminine sides" and Bly snapped
at him, "If you're a momma's boy, get the fuck out of the temple."  Now,
you all know how I feel about saying people have "sides" of the opposite
sex, but it's not that that I'm defending.  I'm angry about Bly's
reply. 

I'm afraid, too, after hearing him talking about "weak, soft men" that
he's just using the same old shaming stunt that little boys are
tormented with from day one.  "You're a sissy, little girl!"  "Go play
with dolls!"  "You throw like a GIRL!"  And when they get older, "What
are you, a faggot?"  I've mentioned to TMM several times that I'm
convinced that a major hobby for straight men everywhere is scoping out
every other man nearby and trying to guess whether or not they're gay.
Paranoia/phobia IMO.  

Men don't need to be browbeaten anymore, and I've dealt with far too
many sweet and loving and intelligent men who've had to deal with awful
insecurity and inadequacy feelings because they put up with this trash.
I'm sick of it.  They already have strokes and high blood pressure more
than women.  I want a movement that's going to just teach them how the
hell to RELAX!!!!!!!

I've also heard of Bly-groupies who tell me how I'm a woman and
therefore I'm supposed to be a nurturer, and how HE is the big, bad
alpha male who protects and defends.  Again, it just sounds like the
same old "This is what I say a woman is, so if you don't fit into my
mold, force it."  I'm wary of the Iron-John end of things as a result.
The last thing men need is someone calling them wimps and the last thing
women need is someone telling them, "My myth says you're supposed to be
nurturing and you're not.  What's wrong with YOU?"

Blessings,
Janis 

Newsgroups: alt.pagan