HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: roger@uvmark.uucp (Roger MacNicol)
Subject: Re: a question for all readers
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 93 14:21:16 GMT
Organization: VMARK Software, Inc.

In article <1993Jan27.195436.2483@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> mcronin@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Michael T Cronin) writes:
>
>     How has your use of the English language changed with the technology?
>     How do you feel computerization of society has changed the language and so
>ciety as a whole?
>     What is the most significant change you have seen in the language because 
>of computerization?
>     

Among the barbarisms that annoy me most are the use of "input" when "enter" 
is meant (as in 'input the figures') and the unwarranted intrusion of 'then' 
in sentences like 'if you want bold text, then select the bold button
on the buttonbar'.

The rule that the active voice is always preferable produces some terrible
attempts to turn intransitive verbs into transitive verbs in computer jargon.
The worst of these must be 'to access something' for which, sadly, there isn't 
a proper alternative.

The funniest is the transitive use of display in sentences such as '... the
list displays on the screen.' when the writer means 'the list is displayed
on the screen.'  Here the passive voice does not contribute to weakness.
The only correct use of display in this construction would be 'the doe in
heat displays...'.

- Roger


-- 
******************************************************************
* Roger MacNicol, Snr. Software Engineer
* VMark Software, Inc., 30 Speen Street, Framingham, MA 01701-1800
* email: uvmark%roger@merk.com
From: mjhf@troi.cc.rochester.edu (Michael James Horsfall)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Canadian English
Date: 28 Jan 93 02:00:39 GMT
Organization: University of Rochester - Rochester, New York

In <3099@eram.esi.COM.AU> dave@eram.esi.COM.AU (Dave Horsfall) writes:

>| >>>>"I'm not too fussy about hamburgers,"
>| >>>"I'm not too *picky* about hamburgers.
>| >>"I'm not too *finicky* about
>| >"I'm not too *crazy* about burgers."

>Isn't it easier to say "I don't like hamburgers." ?  :-)

>-- 
>Dave Horsfall (VK2KFU)         VK2KFU @ VK2RWI.NSW.AUS.OC
>dave@esi.COM.AU                ...munnari!esi.COM.AU!dave

Easier perhaps, but not as much fun.

Mike Horsfall
(A distant cousin?)
--
==============================================================M.J. Horsfall
Phone: (716)-275-8703 (Lab)                        Department of Biophysics
Fax: (716)-275-6007                  University of Rochester Medical Centre
E-mail: mjhf@troi.cc.rochester.edu=========================================
From: gmw1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Gabe M Wiener)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: "Registrating" or "Registration"?
Date: 24 Jan 93 16:08:46 GMT
Reply-To: gmw1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Gabe M Wiener)
Distribution: alt
Organization: Columbia University

In article <etxsvkl.727609846@garboa03> etxsvkl@garboa03.ericsson.se (Svante Kleist) writes:
>	imagine that something is registered somewhere, e.g.  a report is
>	registered at an office.
>
>	What do you then call that office?  "The registration office"
>	or "The registering office"? (I suspect the former being correct.)

I'd probably just call it the registrar's office and be done with it.


--
Gabe Wiener - Columbia Univ.     "This 'telephone' has too many shortcomings 
gmw1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu       to be seriously considered as a means of 
N2GPZ in ham radio circles        communication. The device is inherently of
72355,1226 on CI$                 no value to us." -Western Union memo, 1877
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: baron@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Dennis Baron)
Subject: Re: Words that are Opposites...
Organization: University of Illinois
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 16:19:40 GMT

In article <C17z6D.ILD@mach1.wlu.ca> brea9430@mach1.wlu.ca (breadner ken u) writes:
>Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
>Path: news.cso.uiuc.edu!ux1.cso.uiuc.edu!sdd.hp.com!usc!cs.utexas.edu!torn!watserv2.uwaterloo.ca!mach1!brea9430
>From: brea9430@mach1.wlu.ca (breadner ken u)
>Subject: Words that are Opposites...
>Message-ID: <C17z6D.ILD@mach1.wlu.ca>
>Organization: Wilfrid Laurier University
>Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 19:51:49 GMT
>Lines: 13
>Here's an idiosyncracy I have always found fascinating.
>
>The verb "to cleave", depending on context, can mean "to split apart" or
>"to cling together".
>
>A "fat chance" and a "slim chance" are one and the same.
>
>Are there more of these wierd phrases out there?
>-- 
>Ken Breadner	(brea9430@mach1.wlu.ca)	Wilfrid Laurier University
>lunatic		(the BREADbox...) 	Waterloo, Ontario, Canada 
>"If you have built your castles in the air, do not despair. That is where
>they belong. Now put the foundations under them." --Thoreau


Yes, lots.  And wonder of wonders, there is no name for this phenomenon.
When literally means figuratively (literally!), when bad means good,
and vice versa, when bone means to take the bone out of or add bone(meal)
to, when merely means only and entirely (things rank and gross in nature
possess it merely).  Fast means immobile and highly mobile.  Let means
permit and hinder.  Sanction means allow and disallow.  Oversight means
ignore and inspect closely.  Dust means add dust or remove it.  And of
course, ravel means unravel (sleep, if you recall, knits up Macbeth's 
ravelled sleeve of care, or it would do so if he could only sleep).
With means accompanying and opposing.  Illiterate means totally unable
to read, and able to read but not as well as I do.



Also, opposites mean the same: I could/couldn't care
less.  Annul and disannul.  Thaw and unthaw.  

What should we call these paradoxical lexical items?  Autoantonyms
springs to mind.  Ambiguity and amphibology don't really say it.  Nor
does oxymoron.  I also call them literal paradoxes.  But still I
know I haven't hit on the right term.  

More examples, and better terminology, would be welcome.

Dennis


debaron@uiuc.edu               (\                   217-333-2392
                               \'\             fax: 217-333-4321
Dennis Baron                    \'\           __________
Department of English           / '|         ()_________)
Univ. of Illinois               \ '/          \ ~~~~~~~~ \
608 S. Wright St.                 \             \ ~~~~~~   \
Urbana IL 61801                   ==).            \__________\
                                 (__)             ()__________)
From: hairy@sloth.equinox.gen.nz (Phil Anderson)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: The word FUCK
Date: 24 Jan 93 01:37:42 GMT
Organization: Lethargy Inc.


In article <1993Jan21.201233.8416@Princeton.EDU> 
roger@astro.princeton.edu writes:

  > >I've heard from an artsie friend that the original inhabitants of Britain 
  > >(the Angles and Saxons) used the word FUCK as a normal part of their 
  > >language. 
  > 
  > Well, they certainly didn't write it, and there are quite a few Anglo-Saxon
  > texts.  

What word did they use? I ask out of pure prurience...

(I'd note that although there's a fair amount of Anglo Saxon extant, 
we're undoubtably missing a lot of their lexicon).

  > Then why did English continue to be written?  Only high-class folks
  > knew *how* to write.  Sorry, that one doesn't work.  French was

Most of the literate at that stage would presumably have been 
ecclesiastics, not the high-class as such. The rank and file of these 
folk would have been native speakers, and most likely wrote in their 
own language or Latin.

Phil

 ----------------------------------------------
 Phil Anderson  ***  hairy@sloth.equinox.gen.nz
 ----------------------------------------------
       "No-one is equal to anyone else!"
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: glen@slate.cs.wisc.edu (Glen Ecklund)
Subject: Re: Have to
Organization: U of Wisconsin Madison - Computer Sciences
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 15:01:36 GMT

john@liebnitz.ssd.kodak.com (John Hall) writes:

>Do you pronounce the word "have" differently in the following
>statements?

>	I have two apples.

>	I have to leave.

>Here in western New York I hear the first as "hav", but the second as
>"haf".

>Has anyone else observed this?  Can you explain it?

I'd say that in much of the US, "hafta" (or "haftoo") is a casual
pronunciation of "have to".  "I hafta apples" just doesn't parse.
Also, when pronounced formally, the two are prounced differently.
"I have to" has little stress on the "to", but "I have two" has at least as
much stress on the "two" as on the "have".

This reminds me of another issue.  In the US we say:
	I have got to leave.
which contracts to
	I've got to leave.
which may be casually pronounced
	I've gotta leave.
or even
	I gotta leave.
or, changing the verb and dropping the subject
	Gotta go.
But I would never say
	I've two apples.
although hearing that would probably not jolt me as much as hearing
	I've to leave.

I figure that the rule is that we only contract "have" when it is an
auxiliary verb.
Do other dialects use these last two contractions?
-- 
Every child shall be treated with complete respect.

Glen Ecklund     glen@cs.wisc.edu   (608) 262-1318 Office, 262-1204 Dept. Sec'y
Department of Computer Sciences        1210 W. Dayton St., Room 3355
University of Wisconsin, Madison       Madison, Wis. 53706  U.S.A.
From: Cannam@sc.ZIB-Berlin.de (Chris Cannam)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Hi Fi etc
Date: 28 Jan 93 11:14:06
Organization: Konrad Zuse Zentrum fuer Informationstechnik Berlin
Distribution: alt
	<CANNAM.93Jan27103700@borodin.sc.ZIB-Berlin.de>
	<1993Jan27.172449.26633@hplabsz.hpl.hp.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: borodin.zib-berlin.de
In-reply-to: evan@hpl.hp.com's message of Wed, 27 Jan 1993 17:24:49 GMT


In article <1993Jan27.172449.26633@hplabsz.hpl.hp.com> evan@hpl.hp.com
(Evan Kirshenbaum) writes:

   In article <CANNAM.93Jan27103700@borodin.sc.ZIB-Berlin.de>
   Cannam@sc.ZIB-Berlin.de (Chris Cannam) writes:
   >
   >In article <C1H6t9.GI@demon.co.uk> gtoal@pizzabox.demon.co.uk (Graham
   >Toal) writes:
   >
   >   Duh, you appear to be British - is /fei-nans/ a new trend here that I
   >   missed? finance has sounded like fiddlesticks! for as long as I remember.
   >
   >Uh?  To me finance is /fei-nans/, and always has been.  My dictionary
   >agrees with me.  Or is this a bizarre joke?

   My dictionary lists the following pronunciations for "finance":
   /f@ 'n&n(t)s/, /'faI n&n(t)s/, and /faI 'n&n(t)s/.  The most common
   American pronunciation (which I use) is the second, generally without
   the /t/.  I was under the impression that the British tend to use the
   first.  /fei nans/ (or, more probably, /feI n&ns/) would have the
   first syllable rhyme with "May" and "They".

Ah, hang on.  You've got me here.  No, I suppose it's your /faI n&ns/
I'm after.  I want it to rhyme (more-or-less) with `why' or `eye',
hence its applicability to `hi-fi'.  I can't remember having heard the
word pronounced with a schwa, though, except occasionally in
`financial' -- is the schwa what Graham Toal was on about?  If not,
I'm left even more confused than before.

							Chris

--
           on sighting mathematicians it should unhook the algebra from their
             minds and replace it with poetry;  on sighting poets it should
               unhook poetry from their minds and replace it with algebra

Newsgroups: alt.tasteless.jokes,alt.usage.english
From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: The word FUCK
Originator: news@nimaster
Reply-To: roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig)
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 20:12:33 GMT

In article <C17wKo.F89@ecf.toronto.edu> murtaza@ecf.toronto.edu (MURTAZA HASAN) writes:
>B
>References: <1993Jan19.150727.25914@seachg.uucp> <1993Jan20.102239.1@wombat.newcastle.edu.au> <C16A6L.HAu@ecf.toronto.edu>
>
>I've heard from an artsie friend that the original inhabitants of Britain 
>(the Angles and Saxons) used the word FUCK as a normal part of their 
>language. 

Well, they certainly didn't write it, and there are quite a few Anglo-Saxon
texts.  

(btw, could you make shorter lines part of *your* language?  Thanks.)

>When the Normans came over and conquered, English went underground 
>and was spoken only in the fields, 
>with French in the castles and palaces.  therefore, Fuck became LOW class. 

Then why did English continue to be written?  Only high-class folks
knew *how* to write.  Sorry, that one doesn't work.  French was
perhaps spoken at court, but elsewhere English was the usual
language, incl. at most castles.  (They didn't do palaces in those days.)
English became creolized by blending with French; that was the big change,
and why we don't speak Anglo-Saxon now.

>	So the word is merely an anachronism.  Feel free to use it.

Why is it an anachronism?  Don't people fuck anymore?  

And thanks for your permission.

Roger  (who has plenty of artsie friends, but also a dictionary...)
From: hayesstw@risc1.unisa.ac.za (Steve Hayes)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: between, among
Date: 27 Jan 93 10:28:30 GMT
Organization: University of South Africa
NNTP-Posting-Host: pchayest.unisa.ac.za

In article <Mildred_Thill-240738131021@madadm02.educ.ualberta.ca> Mildred_Thill@ACT.EDUC.UALBERTA.CA (Mildred Thill) writes:

>A few days ago, a parents group I belong to got into a bit of an arguement
>about how to use beween and among. Some of us thought that between should
>be used only when referring to two things, but not three or more. However
>some said that in the sentence, "We want to improve communication among
>teachers, parents and the members of the community", 'between' would work
>just as well, with the proviso that it emphasized the two way communication
>between each possible pair in the group.

B.A. Phythian, in his "A concise dictionary of correct English" (Hodder & 
Stoughton, 1979) puts it thus:

Between expresses the relationship of something to two or more surrounding 
things, severally and individually. Amog expresses a relationship to them 
collectively and equally. Thus

You can camp between (not among) the river, the wood and the wall.

You'll have to search among (not between) all those papers to find it.

============================================================
Steve Hayes, Department of Missiology & Editorial Department
Univ. of South Africa, P.O. Box 392, Pretoria, 0001 South Africa
Internet: hayesstw@risc1.unisa.ac.za
          steve.hayes@p5.f22.n7101.z5.fidonet.org
          stephen.hayes@f20.n7101.z5.fidonet.org
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: gtoal@pizzabox.demon.co.uk (Graham Toal)
Subject: Re: Hi Fi etc
Organization: Cuddlehogs Anonymous
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 19:15:08 GMT

In article <1993Jan26.160452.5917@cs.hw.ac.uk> neilg@cs.hw.ac.uk (Neil MG Gall) writes:
:	finance
:	five
:	file
:	lots of words ending "-fy" : qualify, mistify etc

Duh, you appear to be British - is /fei-nans/ a new trend here that I
missed?  finance has sounded like fiddlesticks! for as long as I remember.

G
(Oh, maybe you want to make it rhyme with high, as in high-fi nance?)
From: mckeonj@ul.ie
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Query: semiliterate quotation marks
Date: 19 Jan 93 09:49:39 GMT
Organization: University of Limerick, Ireland

In article <C0vGDr.4DD@world.std.com>, jcf@world.std.com (Joseph C Fineman) writes:
> Semiliterates (by which I mean, without prejudice, people who can read
> & write but have not assimilated the norms of the publishers) have a
> nonstandard use of quotation marks that I have had a hard time making
> sense of over the years.  It appears to be a form of emphasis, but by
> no means the same kind as is meant by italics in standard writing.
> It will be seen that the words in quotation marks are not actual
> quotations, and are being used in their standard senses.  My *guess*
> is that the marks signify some sort of emotional state in the writer
> at the time of writing.  However, tho I have met many people who write
> this way, they get rather skittish when asked about it, and I have
> never managed the tact required to find out what they think they are
> doing.  Does anybody here know?  Perhaps there is even a literature on
> the subject.
I think that you have already answered your own question, albeit
unconsciously.
Yes, the use of quotation marks as exemplified does imply some
sort of emotional state in the writer - in exactly the same way
as italics do.
The simple fact is that the person is writing, with a pen, in
cursive style, in which it is rather difficult to italicise.
The pen writer may well "carry over" this mode into keyboard
writing. (If I were speaking the previous sentence, I would
emphasise the quoted phrase slightly, because I am using a
colloquialism.)
I am not familiar with the publishing "norms" you speak of,
but I would hope that any publisher would do his best to
represent in the published text the style and mode of the 
author of the text.
-- 
"Ich am of Irlonde" (medieval fragment used by Yeats)
-------------------------------------------------------------------
John McKeon, Material Science Dept. University of Limerick, Ireland
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: evan@hpl.hp.com (Evan Kirshenbaum)
Subject: Re: between, among
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 01:30:17 GMT
Reply-To: kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Laboratories

In article <8490@tekig7.PEN.TEK.COM> briand@tekig5.PEN.TEK.COM writes:
>     Do not use "amongst"; this is not a word.

   among, amongst.  Most of the commentators who mention these words
   note that mongst is less common, but both are correct.  Our
   evidence confirms this; it also shows amongst a bit more common in
   British use than American.  The few commentators who call amongst
   quaint or overrefined are off target.

		M/W Dict. of English Usage, among 4, p. 90.

For the rest, I'd say you're pretty close. M/W DoEU (between 1) points
out that

   the enormous amount of ink spilled in the explication of the
   subtleties of between and among has been largely a waste; it is
   difficult for a native speaker of English who is not distracted by
   irrelevant considerations to misuse the two words.  One of the
   major distractions is, in fact, excessive concern for number.

Evan Kirshenbaum		       +------------------------------------
    HP Laboratories		       | The whole idea of our government is
    3500 Deer Creek Road, Building 26U | this:  if enough people get together
    Palo Alto, CA  94304	       | and act in concert, they can take
				       | something and not pay for it.
    kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com	       |                   P.J. O'Rourke
    (415)857-7572
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: sds@henry.ece.cmu.edu (Sherwood D. Silliman)
Subject: Re: Metric and Imperial Units (was Canadian English)
Organization: Electrical and Computer Engineering, Carnegie Mellon
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 15:17:57 GMT

In article <1993Jan21.022306.3942@hplabsz.hpl.hp.com> evan@hpl.hp.com (Evan Kirshenbaum) writes:
>In article <1993Jan21.013651.11581@sol.ctr.columbia.edu> slb22@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Seth "the Lesser") writes:
>>evan@hpl.hp.com (Evan Kirshenbaum) writes:
>>[snip]
>>>These seem to me to be fossilized usages (like carats, which are only
>>>used for measuring gems; furlongs, which are only used for horseraces;
>>>and bushels, which we only used for buying soil).
>>
>>I have seen bushels used for measuring produce (both "mass" and "count"
>>types).
>
>Sorry, I was unclear.  I've seen it used as a measure of production of
>produce, as well.  I've only used it to measure, or indeed seen it
>used for buying and selling to ordinary folk, with soil.

We used to go to a commercial orchard in Northeast Ohio where you could pick
your own apples or buy them already picked.  Your purchase was measured in
bushels, or even pecks if you were getting a smaller amount.

(Do they have these orchards in other parts of the US or in other countries?)

>>
>>>         Blocks (1/8mi) are also internalized and are
>>                 ^^^^^^^
>>>used (to the 1/2 block) for outdoor distances up to about 10 blocks.
>>
>>Depends on where you grow up--I'm from Michigan, and, while I myself use the
>>word "block" with its urban meaning, I have often heard people from only
>>[]

>
>Hmm.  I was unaware of the "mile" meaning of "block".  I should've
>mentioned, though, that the measure I was thinking of is probably only
>internalized by urban Americans (and may, of course, be more
>region-specific as well:  I grew up in Chicago, although it seems
>common in California, as well).  It's usually a relatively fuzzy
>measure though, unless one is actually counting the number of
>cross-streets in a regularly laid out city.

Like in Manhattan, where the block is a very specific unit of distance.

>
>Evan Kirshenbaum		       +------------------------------------

-- 
Sherwood D. Silliman         "When I give food to the poor, they call me a
                              saint.  When I ask why the poor have no food,
                              they call me a communist." --Dom Helder Camara
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: jonog@g2syd.genasys.com.au (Jonathan Gowland)
Subject: Re: Canadian English
Organization: Genasys II, Sydney, Australia
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 02:23:36 GMT

In article <C12z51.I9K@CAM.ORG> renault@CAM.ORG (Pierre Renault) writes:

>Apparently, when an american goes to a choke'n'puke to eat a hamburger,
                                        ^^^^^^^^^^^^

And here's another yet idea for a thread: what are other cute names for
restaurants (and perhaps other types of establishments)? Here's a list
to start the ball rolling (I don't know which ones are peculiar to
Australia):

Chew'n'Spew             - Chinese restaurant
The Scottish Restaurant - McDonald's
Greasy Joe's            - independent shop selling hamburgers and similar
                          take-away fare


- Jonathan Gowland

This article was probably generated by a buggy news reader.
From: au500@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Linda Zinn)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Guide for Teaching English in Japan
Date: 28 Jan 1993 14:06:25 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: au500@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Linda Zinn)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, gtoal@pizzabox.demon.co.uk (Graham Toal) says:

>	I am distributing a booklet called "A Comprehensive Guide For
>	Teaching English in Japan".
>
>No you're not, you lying git, you're *selling* it.
>
>	We charge a minimum cost price of US$10 (including S&H expenses).
>
>Must be a new definition of the word 'Minimum' I wasn't previously
>aware of.  This is really quite against accepted net etiquette.

Aw gee, I liked that post, especially the part about "a minimum cost
price." Hmmm, does that mean you may pay more if you like? And hey,
the phrase "cost price" is enough to send me scrambling for an
envelope, a stamp, and a minimum-$10 bill. Yessir, I think these
folks have the corner on teaching English in Japan. They must have
taught the person who translated my Magic Froggi Tongue toy
package.

-- 
________________________________________________________________________
* Linda Zinn                    When you point a finger at someone,    *
* au500@cleveland.freenet.edu   you're pointing three back at yourself *
* ******Wanted: Books by E.D.E.N. Southworth; cattail dinnerware****** *