HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: steven@spxtech.qc.ca (Steve Potter)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada,can.politics
Subject: Re: Polling results : Canada
Date: 30 Sep 92 20:50:06 GMT
Organization: Securiplex Technologies Inc., Montreal, Canada
X-Bytes: 1284

From article <BvEBsn.3yx@ireq.hydro.qc.ca>, by beaurega@ireq.hydro.qc.ca (Denis Beauregard):
> In article <1992Sep29.224046.5784@spxtech.qc.ca> steven@spxtech.qc.ca (Steve Potter) writes:
>>From article <BvD15o.HJG@ireq.hydro.qc.ca>, by beaurega@ireq.hydro.qc.ca (Denis Beauregard):
>>> 
>>> Last polling in Quebec : something like 39% YES 47% NO.
>>> 
>>
>>Lest anyone should be unaware:-
>>
>>Some of the "NO!" votes in Quebec will be from federalists, non-separatists,
>>and other groups. (including members of Alliance Quebec and the Equality
>>Party - "party" lines are irrelevant in this one).
>>
> 
> This is one more reason why speeches from Mulroney are bulshit!
                              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Mulroney is full of it!!! :-)

> NO camp includes a lot of different opinions, even members from
> Liberal party whose leader is the head ( :-)  ) of the YES camp.
> 

(Isn't it refreshing for nous d'etre au meme cote du question, Denis? :-)
-- 
  ///==================================================================\\\
  ||| Steve Potter:         steven%spxtech@CAM.ORG                     |||
  ||| Expertise/Experience: Computer Systems Engineering / Real Ale /  |||
  |||                       Politics in Education in Quebec            |||
Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada,can.politics,can.general
From: mathew@unixg.ubc.ca (Mathew B Englander)
Subject: Re: Charlottetown accord (was "What happens on October 26?")
Organization: University of British Columbia, Vancouver, B.C., Canada
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 23:00:13 GMT

golchowy@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca (Gerald Olchowy) writes:

>In Canada, (the US ?) you can ask for a copy of the Charlottetown
>Accord by calling 1-800-561-1188...it is also pretty much all
>in the Globe and Mail on Sept 1 (your university library might
>carry it) and the Toronto Star around Sept 20 or so.

If you get the Accord from the Globe and Mail, remember to read the
corrections, which appeared a few days afterward (I think Sept. 4, 5,
or 6.)

(Since the Globe was the first place the accord was printed -- a couple
of days before it was officially released -- the version was not
quite finalized.)

Mathew Englander.
Xref: sparky soc.culture.canada:6983 can.politics:7467
From: uctlxpd@ucl.ac.uk (Peter Bartlett)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada,can.politics
Subject: Re: Ontario "socialism"
Date: 29 Sep 92 12:35:41 GMT
Organization: Bloomsbury Computing Consortium

morriso@ee.ubc.ca (John Paul Morrison) writes:

[among other things in his hymn to capitalism]


>Bussinessmen want to make profits. Profits do not go into black holes, nor
>do they disappear into yachts and villas. Profits get reinvested in the
>economy. They become bonuses for productive workers. Profits make
>pension funds grow, so people will have something to retire on.

Pension funds grow (and of course get scooped back into corporate profits
by the employer, if they grow "too much"); and people have something to retire
on (as long as the "prerogative of management" doesn't result in them getting
dismissed before retirement age).  Not that any employer would ever
*consider* doing any of these things, of course...

>We are long past the old union war-stories of children exploited in coal
>mines for 18 hours a day, and the goons beating anyone who spoke for worker's
>rights. Employer's aren't out to exloit people's miseries, they are out to
>exploit people's talents, and ambitions to produce and succeed, in
>exchange for fair wages, and good working conditions.

And I have a bridge for sale in New York (the Brooklyn... you might have
heard of it.  And for you SPECIAL DEAL!)

>Owners risked their own money, and used their own knowledge to get their
>companies where they are today. And then people heap scorn on them for
>succeeding (and BTW employing thousands).

Poor Connie Black.  Do you suppose having scorn heaped upon you is easier,
on his income?

peter.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada,can.politics
From: dbowman@gorgon (Don A. Bowman)
Subject: Re: The Accord and BC
Organization: University of Waterloo
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1992 21:44:10 GMT

Stuart Lynne (sl@wimsey.bc.ca) wrote:
:
: >BC is very unlikely to join the US. Like all Canadians, the people of British
: >Columbia are very attached to Health Care. Under US rule, they would be
: >unable to have this.
: 
: Huh??? In Canada and the US health care is mostly a provincial/state 
: responsibility with some federal funding. Given back the taxes that currently
: flow out of BC we should be able to fund an adequate health care system.
: 

Currently Health Care is federally funded through transfer payments. This
means that the feds collect the money through income tax, and give some
back to the province. Under US rule, will BC implement its own provincial
income tax to pay for Health Care? How many voters will vote for a 25% tax
increase, even if it is only perceived?

--
Don Bowman                (519) 744-6154     dbowman@zeus.uwaterloo.ca
From: reykja@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Reykja Sigurdsson)
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 05:48:20 GMT
Subject: Fabrikant Updates?
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Fort Collins, CO, USA
Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada

My server is having some trouble keeping up with postings to this group. 
For that reason, I am wondering if someone would kindly send me the 
Fabrikant updates. I am hoping that the service to which I subscribe will
have the problem fixed soon. 

thanks!

rks

        please send updates to rks@cscns.com


Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada
From: stefan@helios.physics.utoronto.ca (Stefan Mochnacki)
Subject: Re: Extra billing, was Re: Nothing is free ...(Was: Ontario "socialism")
Organization: University of Toronto Physics/Astronomy/CITA
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1992 04:54:10 GMT


Brian Glendenning  writes:

> When our first child was born (in early 84) the extra-billing amounted
> to about $600. This was in Toronto.

Well, we had TWINS born in Toronto in 1981. We avoided extra-billing
by going with the Women's College Hospital clinic. That meant we didn't
totally get to choose our own specialist, and that students were often
present, but otherwise there was no difference in the treatment.

About 1986 or so the doctors tried rotating strikes to retain extra
billing, which had been abolished by a combination of Federal and provincial
laws. The public was SO disgusted that the doctors haven't tried anything
like this since. A recent attempt at the same thing by BC doctors has
similarly fizzled.

The 1% funding increase cap on Medicare this year I feel is a bold move;
as pointed out by University of Toronto President Pritchard, for the first
time health and the universities are getting the same funding increase. 
A decade of 10% increases for health has resulted in
a bloated system, and there really has been very little complaint about the cuts
 as compared with the ridiculous bleating from certain business interests
about the OLRA amendments. 

I know that Bob Rae sees that education and training are essential
for the future, and that they are threatened by the cancerous growth
of the health system (excuse the dreadful pun). Likewise he is well
aware of the massive primary and secondary education bureaucracy, with
its inertia and waste as well as inequitable funding, and I think some
change may well be coming in that area as well as in health.

		Stefan Mochnacki
                ( I 'fess up, I  AM an NDP'er)

-- 
Stefan W. Mochnacki          INTERNET - stefan@centaur.astro.utoronto.ca
Astronomy, U. of Toronto     UUCP - {uunet,pyramid}!utai!helios.physics!stefan
Ph. (416) 884-9562           BITNET - mochnacki@utorphys.bitnet 
FAX (416) 884-2672	     LOCATION - David Dunlap Observatory 
Xref: sparky soc.culture.canada:6933 can.politics:7387 can.general:4625
From: dbowman@shade (Don A. Bowman)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada,can.politics,can.general
Subject: Re: I was going to vote yes, BUT NOW ....
Date: 28 Sep 92 13:02:15 GMT
Organization: University of Waterloo
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]

Gerald Olchowy (golchowy@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca) wrote:
: In article <VieRRB4w165w@ersys.edmonton.ab.ca> yadallee@ersys.edmonton.ab.ca (Dave Shariff Yadallee) writes:
: >
: >Let really protest this FARCE of a referendum.  Just simply abstain.
: >
: 
: Abstaining is as bad as a "yes" vote...the only way to send a message to the
: politicians is to vote "no"...abstaining will only encourage them 
: to continue as a "yes" vote will.  
: 
: Make them worry about their jobs...vote "no".  
: 

Get of the bandwagon. An abstention is a non-vote. It affects no one. If an
abstention were a yes vote, I suspect that many elections in the past would
have gone differently. The only way to send a message to politicians IS TO
VOTE! Further, vote what you believe, not for rhetoric. Don't vote for the NO
campaign because somebody told you to.

--
Don Bowman                (519) 744-6154     dbowman@zeus.uwaterloo.ca
Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada,can.politics,can.general
From: ward@sun15.vlsi.uwaterloo.ca (Paul Ward)
Subject: Re: I was going to vote yes, BUT NOW ....
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1992 18:18:11 GMT

In article <1992Oct2.140651.5141@msuinfo.cl.msu.edu> mousseau@paun01.pa.msu.edu (Mike Thorpe) writes:
>
>In article <BvGrur.4ww@sun3.vlsi.uwaterloo.ca>, ward@sun17.vlsi.uwaterloo.ca (Paul Ward) writes:
>
>|> 
>|> No, it need not be viewed as the collective making a demand on the individual.
>|> It may just as easily be viewed as a contract between the individual and
>|> the gov't that the individual will pay a certain amount in exchange for which
>|> the individual will receive protection of his/her individual rights (after
>|> all, someone has to pay the policeman).
>|> 
>
>	Non, la description est incomplete.  D'accord, une partie de l'argent
>verse au gouvernement revient directement a l'individu sous forme de 
>services.  Toutefois, une autre part sert a la communaute en general.  Par
>exemple, on paie des taxes scolaires meme si on n'a pas d'enfant a l'ecole. 
>De meme, le regime d'assurance-maladie est la mise en commun d'un certain 
>montant d'argent.  Personne ne peut redemander une partie des taxes parce
>qu'il n'en a pas recu pour son argent !

Some would say the government should not be paying for the education
system, it is up to those individuals who wish their children to be
educated to pay for it (and those who have no children would then not
pay).  Others would point out that when people are paying school taxes
they are effectively just paying back for the education they received
when they were a child.

>	Un gouvernement n'est pas qu'une machine a services.  Meme Milton
>Friedman le reconnait, un gouvernement est la pour assurer la cohesion d'un 
>pays et remplir un role qui n'a rien a voir avec payer les policiers. 
>(Protection de l'environnement, par exemple)

You're environment example is very widely used, but false.  One only
needs the individual right to life to protect the environment - someone
should not pollute because it infringes on someone else's right to life.
In fact, it is the collective demands that led to pollution in the first
place.  In Britain in the 1800s when smokestacks were kicking out all kinds
of gunk, the courts/gov't declared that it was OK, because it produced
many goods/wealth.  Thus those people who owned property that was being 
polluted just had to put up with it.  That's collective rights in action!


Xref: sparky soc.culture.canada:6972 can.politics:7444
From: myhui@bnr.ca (Michael Hui)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada,can.politics
Subject: Re: Ontario "socialism"
Date: 29 Sep 92 00:22:07 GMT
Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd., Ottawa, Canada

In article <1992Sep28.211112.16306@ee.ubc.ca> jmorriso@ee.ubc.ca (John Paul Morrison) writes:
>We are long past the old union war-stories of children exploited in coal
>mines for 18 hours a day, and the goons beating anyone who spoke for worker's
>rights.

Didn't you watch/listen to Jesse Jackson's speech a few months back
during the Democratic National Convention in New York City?

It's still happening. Not to children, but to old, desperate women.
Xref: sparky soc.culture.canada:6960 can.politics:7429
From: jmorriso@ee.ubc.ca (John Paul Morrison)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada,can.politics
Subject: Re: Ontario "socialism"
Date: 28 Sep 92 20:52:12 GMT
Organization: University of BC, Electrical Engineering

In article <1992Sep28.095628.10081@actrix.gen.nz> Steve.Withers@bbs.actrix.gen.nz writes:
> 
>The "ND'ers are commies" red-baiter brigade only show how narrow their own
>experience of life is.....
> 
>Why do I say that? Well.....after you've received the sharp end of a few of
>life's "sticks", you begin to understand that the econo-drones haven't a clue
>what real life is all about. Finally, Ontario has a government that
>ackowledges the humanity of it's citizens - to a greater degree than any
>government in the past 30 years......


Well, if you believe in proportional representation, as your .sig suggests,
you should be angry that the NDP barely got 40% of the vote, but acts
as if they speak for the whole province.
> 
>But, hey, that's just my opinion. I'm far away, but I hear you all. :-)
> 
>Steve
>
               ---------------------------->******************************
>Steve Withers - Wellington, New Zealand | On Sept. 19th, 88% of NZ voters opted
>Steve.Withers@bbs.actrix.gen.nz         | for proportional representation. It
>withers_s@kosmos.wcc.govt.nz            | looks like we may get a more  
>**** Happy user of OS/2 v2!! ****       | democratic system "real soon now".
                                           *******************************

-- 
__________________________________________________________________________
 John Paul Morrison                     |  Just another "Enemy of Canada"
 University of British Columbia, Canada |  Say NO/NON to Constitutional
 Electrical Engineering                 |  hegemony and fear-mongering
 jmorriso@ee.ubc.ca                     |  by politicians/scum.
________________________________________|_________________________________
Xref: sparky soc.culture.canada:7165 sci.research.careers:1261
From: ray@philmtl.philips.ca (Ray Dunn)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada,sci.research.careers
Subject: Montreal news of Fabrikant - 8
Date: 4 Oct 92 01:51:16 GMT
Organization: On the Brew.

Transcribed without permission from the Montreal Gazette, Sat. Oct. 3rd.

[Note that although the first para says "quashed", later it states the
rulings have been suspended.  A much more acceptable action I think.]

QUOTE

Concordia drops ruling

Board said Fabrikant not a threat

Carolyn Adolph
THE GAZETTE

Concordia University has quashed two conduct-board decisions that found -
before the Aug. 24 massacre - that Valery Fabrikant was not a threat to the
university.

One ruling by the faculty-controlled board said the university's
administration overreacted last November, when it called MUC police to
check Fabrikant for a weapon.

He had gone to a university senate meeting with a bulging portfolio and had
paced the room with an angry look.  No weapon was found.

Another ruling said four mechanical engineering professors harassed
Fabrikant after finding him outside their meeting room at 11:30 at night -
during a heated, closed-door session over whether Fabrikant should be
fired.

The four called  building security to force Fabrikant to leave the
department, saying he had clearly been eavesdropping.

The panel agreed with Fabrikant, saying the professor had suffered
"forcible confinement, or even kidnapping."

The two June decisions were under appeal at Concordia when a gunman
rampaged through the ninth floor of the Henry F. Hall building, killing
four people and wounding one.

Fabrikant, 52, is charged with the murders.

Concordia's board of directors decided to suspend the rulings indefinitely
last Wednesday, after hearing from rector Patrick Kenniff.

Kenniff said holding the appeal would mean forcing university officials to
meet once more with Fabrikant, now at the Parthenais Detention Centre
awaiting trial.

The appeals "could not be dealt with dispassionately at this time," Kenniff
told the board.

Had the decisions been allowed to stand, five people at Concordia would
have been forced to apologize publicly to Fabrikant over two incidents.

Four of them would also have had to pay fines.

UNQUOTE
-- 
Ray Dunn at home  |  Beaconsfield,  Quebec,  Canada.
(514) 630 3749    |  ray@philmtl.philips.ca  or  ..uunet!sobeco!philmtl!ray
Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada,can.politics
From: frank@unixg.ubc.ca (Murray Frank)
Subject: Re: Vote Yes - since Canada is a Lost Cause
Organization: University of British Columbia, Vancouver, B.C., Canada
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1992 15:32:45 GMT

In article <BvIJq2.2Bp.1@cs.cmu.edu> clamen+@CS.CMU.EDU writes:
>In article <1992Oct1.220213.19630@unixg.ubc.ca> frank@unixg.ubc.ca (Murray Frank) writes:
>
>   Out of curiosity, how do you know that the movement of the dollar
>   has been due to foreign investors? 
>
>Foreign currency transactions are not made anonymously, so it would be
>a simple matter to find out who is selling and who is buying.

If it is such a simple matter, then please enlighten us as to who did
the selling, who bought, and what volumes. Also, I have colleagues in
the finance division who would be quite interested in a complete data
set of WHO engaged in which transactions all over the world. WHere do
you propose to get the data?

Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada
From: cbs@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (Chris Syed)
Subject: text of charlottetown accord
Organization: UTCS Public Access
Distribution: can
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 17:33:50 GMT

   This past saturday, i picked up an info kit on the Charlottetown
   accord from our local public library. It incudes a couple of
   "glossy" brochures, including the "highlights"... but also:
   
   There is a large legal-size document called "Final Text".
   About half of this text is devoted to aboriginal self government
   and non-denegration from the existing treaties. 

   I notice that the senate reform section says that Canadians 
   "are committed" to gender eqality (each{para{raph begins with
   "Canadians are committed to...").

   These two points have been raised by the national action commit{ee
   and by some dissenting aboriginal spokespeople,{so it looks{like the
   final text{tries to address these points{.. 

{
   has anybody else seen this document?
   I'd be happy to summarize for the net, but I expect this is the
   closest to the "final legal text" (which to my way of thI{nking
   would be a Bill as prepared for parliament?) that we'll see,
   so i suggtest bugging yo{r local library for a look at it{

   (sorry for all the brackets - noisy line).
 
-- 
--- 
       "We cannot think without imagining."  -- Thomas Aquinas
            cbs@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (Chris Brown-Syed)
Xref: sparky soc.culture.canada:6974 can.politics:7449 can.general:4644
From: pasward@maytag.uwaterloo.ca (Paul A.S. Ward)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada,can.politics,can.general
Subject: Re: I was going to vote yes, BUT NOW ....
Date: 29 Sep 92 01:34:42 GMT
Organization: University of Waterloo

In article <1992Sep28.194448.7323@dgbt.doc.ca> don@dgbt.doc.ca (Donald McLachlan) writes:
>In article <VieRRB4w165w@ersys.edmonton.ab.ca> yadallee@ersys.edmonton.ab.ca (Dave Shariff Yadallee) writes:
>>
>>Let really protest this FARCE of a referendum.  Just simply abstain.
>>
>>This campaign has become dishonourable and dispicable (sp?)
>>
>>Table:   POsitive                          Negative
>>
>> Yes:  - the economy                      - mass negatived campaign
>> Side  - collective rights                - abandonment of minority rights
>
>
>ERROR, a minority is a collection of individuals. Therefore they are taken
>care of by the accord. In my opinion this line should read ...
>
>	- collective rights		   - abandonment of INDIVIDUAL rights
>					     (any minority is a collection
>					      of individuals, so they would
>					      then be on the Positive side)

Even more to the point; collective rights should be on the negative side
(I am especially surprised that Dave would put it as positive - it is
anathama to the English tradition of which he is so fond).

BTW, could someone please explain to me how collective rights is different
from apartheid.  It seems to me they are just different names for the same
thing - you get certain privileges based on what group you belong to.  If
you don't belong to the group, you don't get the priveleges.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada,can.politics
From: golchowy@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca (Gerald Olchowy)
Subject: Re: Royal Bank hypocrisy and the Telecommunications Sellout
Organization: University of Toronto Chemistry Department
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 17:54:55 GMT

In article <BvnnE4.4u8@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca> dbowman@warp (Don A. Bowman) writes:
>
>Yes, but 
>
>1) This is breaking Canadian Law 

A little civil disobedience to facilitate informed debate at a crucial
point in my country's history is a crime for which I am more than willing 
to plead guilty.  I seriously doubt whether I am causing the Globe and
Mail and the Toronto Star grievous financial damage...and I am certainly
not breaking the law for personnel gain.  So be it if they hang me!

>3) You are not getting the whole picture, you are getting what one person
>thinks. I do not hide that I am biased. My articles make up the balance in
>this group, and you can see the point/counterpoint. If, however, I was to
>make a synopsis of this group and only show you those articles I agreed with,
>you would come away with a rather different picture.
>

I am sure most people are intelligent and sophisticated enough to
discount my unhidden views on the issues at stake.

>: 
>: And, by the way, if you seriously believe in unbiased, or "balanced" 
>: reporting as you call it, I think you need to read some textual crit.
>
>The CBC had a piece on last night on balanced reporting and this referendum.
>They use a stopwatch to make sure each side gets the same time. They also try
>to ensure that each sides time is as effective re: credibility, etc. They
>showed the Globe+Mail, and interviewed the editors of it. The G+M does the
>same thing with space.
>

This is still perpetuating the myth of objectivity in journalism...the
journalist has a point-of-view...the honest journalist will make that 
point-of-view obvious to the viewer or reader.  North American
journalism tends to be more dishonest because North American journalism
tries to disguise the point-of-view of the journalist and perpetuate
the myth of objectivity.  The best that journalism can do is to try
not to distort the opposing point-of-view...i.e. to provide a level
of justice and fairness through a journalist's subjectivity.

>: 
>: >If you let other people think for you, censor what you see, you will
>: >end up thinking like them.
>: 
>: Do you really think I am in danger of thinking like Gerald?
>
>No. I believe you are in danger of thinking that everyone thinks like Gerald.
>

I'll take that as a complement!

>
>Well, I can't get the Crown Jewels -- this doesn't give me the right to steal
>them.
>

The thief will profit from stealing the crown jewels...my civil
disobedience is for the cause of informed debate.

>PS: For all following this thread, please take your comments to email to me
>since it doesn't belong here.
>

The issue of journalistic bias has a lot of relevance to the referendum
debate...seeing as how the mainstream media is pro-YES, pro-ELITE, and
pro-Establishment.

Example: The Charlottetown Accord is repeatedly referred to by one of the
national networks' new media as the UNITY agreement.

Gerald
Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada,can.politics,can.general