From: Larry Margolis <margoli@watson.ibm.com>
Subject: Re: Walking down to the student center last night
Date: Sun, 04 Oct 1992 18:35:35 GMT
Reply-To: margoli@watson.IBM.com
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: The Village Waterbed
Followup-To: talk.abortion

In  <1061@bug.UUCP>  stevef@bug.UUCP (Steven R Fordyce) writes:
> In article <1992Oct02.042824.158278@watson.ibm.com>
> margoli@watson.IBM.com writes:
> >In  <1054@bug.UUCP>  stevef@bug.UUCP (Steven R Fordyce) writes:
> >> Look up the word "child".  You will find nothing about a soul.  A fetus is
> >> by definition a child.
> >
> >Depends on the dictionary.
>
> No it doesn't.

Yes it does.

> You're perfectly correct

I usually am.  :-)

> that some dictionaries (especially
> abridged ones) don't explicitly include the words "unborn" or "fetus" in
> the definition of "child" (although most do).  However those that don't,
> like "American Heritage Dictionary", don't exclude the unborn in their
> definition, i.e. that don't say "born offspring", they just say
> "offspring".  Are you going to tell me that the fetus isn't an offspring
> too?

Actually, yes, since it hasn't "sprung off" yet.  And some dictionaries
don't mention offspring, and explicitly give birth as the beginning point.
   _Dictionary of Contempory American Usage_

       infant; child; baby.  An *infant*, in the general usage of the
   word, is a *child* during the earliest period of its life when it is
   still being carried about, "a babe in arms."  *Infant* and *baby* in
   current American usages are synonymous, though *baby* is the everyday
   word and *infant* would seem formal or a little archaic.  A *child*
   is a baby or an infant but in general use it applies to persons below
   the age of puberty and since *baby* is generally used of the very
   young, a *child* commonly designates someone anywhere between weaning
   and puberty.  In law an *infant* is a minor, a person under twenty-
   one, and a *child* is any descendant, regardless of age.  *Baby* is
   not recognized in the law as designating a category.

I've got a number of (unabriged) dictionaries that agree with this; I can
provide references if you want.

> Please keep in mind that this didn't start with me making a big point of
> the fact that the fetus is a child.  It started with other people claiming
> the the fetus isn't a child and that it was ridiculous to say otherwise.
> That is corruption of the language for political purposes.

Actually, calling a fetus a child is a corruption of language for political
purposes.  (Note that the Supreme Court has interpreted "child" to refer
to an individual already born, with an existence separate from its mother.
They footnote Webster's Third New International Dictionary in support
of this proposition.  The case is Burns v Alcala.)

> Why is this (false) distinction so important to you people?

1.  It's not a false distinction; in common use, a fetus is not referred
    to as a child.
2.  The distinction is important because "child" has the connotations
    associated with the normal use of the word - i.e., a cute little
    kid running around in a playground.  You're using the word to invoke
    those connotations, and people's normal protective reactions, which
    most people feel don't apply to an early-term fetus, much less to a
    zygote or embryo (which is what is what's aborted in the vast
    majority of cases).  That's why, when some idiot posts
       CHILDREN ARE BEING MURDERED!!!
    someone will inevitably respond, "Where?  That's awful!  Call the police.
    Oh, wait, you're only talking about fetuses?"

> That is from, "Webster's Third New International Dictionary of the English
> Language, Unabridged", G & C Merriam Company, 1976.

Interesting; the above SC decision was, I believe, in 1975.  Could the
dictionary have been updated the following year due to pressure in
response to this?

Note that I've directed followups to talk.abortion, as some people don't
think that the abortion issue has anything to do with Rush Limbaugh.

Larry Margolis, MARGOLI@YKTVMV (Bitnet), margoli@watson.IBM.com (Internet)
Newsgroups: alt.rush-limbaugh