From: naumoski@cs.ruu.nl (Goce Naumoski)
Subject: Re: Greek Macedonian writes about "Macedonia".
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1992 10:45:43 GMT
Organization: Utrecht University, Dept. of Computer Science






In <6013@m1.cs.man.ac.uk> lb@cs.man.ac.uk (Luben Boyanov) writes:

>In article <1992Sep4.100225.24841@cs.ruu.nl> naumoski@cs.ruu.nl (Goce Naumoski) writes:
>>
>>In <6001@m1.cs.man.ac.uk> lb@cs.man.ac.uk (Luben Boyanov) writes:
>>
>>You are right, there was NO SUCH NATIONAL CONSIOUSNESS 70 years ago,
>
>Goce, this is very important point. And because NO SUCH NATIONAL
>CONSCIOUSNESS existed, it's clear that Miladinovi Brothers, Gligor
>Purlichev, and many, many others, didn't feel to belong to a Macedonian
>nation. The same is valid for Goce Delchev, Yane Sandanski, Dame Gruev, etc,
>etc. 

I didn't speak (last time) about exactly 70 years ago, it was a relative point,
so please don't take this as a fact. People have just made a difference
between Christaians and Turks, they even haven't made a difference
by saying "Orthodox" as today. Now, What could you tell me about
how they have called themselves before the independence of Bulgaria?
Even in Bulgaria, many years after its independence, usually the
people from the villages have called themselves "Risyani" (Christians),
exactly as I've written in my last posting.
And just a sentence about why some people have called themselves
"Bulagarins", especially in the beginning of the 20th century, because
they thought "brother Bulgarians" would help them against the Turks
(independence) and against the Greeks (anti Hellenizm).

>
>Let me tell you that this was common for the Ottoman Empire until the 19th
>century. If you read books from/for that time, you will find that there
>were no nations - people were "classified" according to religious groups only.
>
As I said above, there were just Christians and Muslims as two main groups
in the Ottoman Empire.

>Look, you can open many Bulgarians books and documents from these years and you
>will find lot of "Macedonians" !!! (that all they were Greek is pure
>fantasy). But when the subject comes to their national consciousness,
>they described themselves as Bulgarians. And let us be clear - this was the
>way people thought at that time. "Macedonian" is still amazingly popular in
>Bulgaria and one often says "Macedonian" and not "Bulgarian", or one may
>say "Oh, yes - he is Macedonian"  despite that no one doubts the national
>consciousness. I've seen many times "differences" between "Macedonians" and
>"Bulgarians", but it has been used to describe matters other than national
>consciousness !!! And don't forget that those who felt Macedonian
>Bulgarians were fighting for INDEPENDENT Macedonia !!! They were not (at
>least - the majority) fighting for a union with Bulgaria !!! If there are
>opinions that some of the Macedonian Slavs didn't feel Bulgarians (or just
>didn't feel belonging to ANY nation) before the end of the 19th century, so
>far I've found no doubt (and questioning) that the 1903 uprising is
>anything else but Bulgarian in it's character. Why this was so and details
>on it is a matter of a longer posting.

It is not enough just to open "many" books, but one should also read them.
And let me tell you something more. Have you ever heard about Debrca?
It is a region near Ohrid, and it was one of the main "regions"
(okruzi) in the Ilinden uprising. And now the point, I do not belive to
all books about the uprising, especially about the combatants in the above
mentioned region, but instead I do belive to the stories of my grand parents.
And let me tell you taht they didn't fought for Bulagaria, or anything else,
but for themselves, for the Macedonians. For your information, my
g-g-grand parent after the uprising was imprisoned in Ohrid, sentenced to
101 year (as many others from the region), then brought to Bitola, 
then to Solun (Thesalloniki) in the WHITE TOWER, and after that in Anatolia.
His stories were brought to us, and for me they are the most accurate.
And the uprising has have no Bulgarian character, at least not in Debrca.

>>I can tell you something else: in some villages even 20 years ago
>>you could here what I wrote above ie. people have made just 
>>difference between christians and muslims, at the first place,
>>and then yet the Jews.
>
>I think that the most important institutions were the schools and the churches.
>They used to bring the feeling of national consciousness in the people and they
>still do. If you were not educated in a Macedonian school, but in a
>Bulgarian one, there is almost no doubt that you would have felt Bulgarian.

Might be, but it depends at the first place, on the parents of someone.
I doubt that I personally would feel me a Bulgarian if I was educated in a
Bulgarian school, why? Read above, about the uprising?
Besides the above few sentences, there is a lot of information I was told
by my ancestors, so I don't think I would feel me different (it might happen
even more nationalistic, but I'm happy I don't feel like that).


>The general and genuine acceptance of Bulgarian schools and churches in
>Macedonia at the end of last century (and after 1870), made people's minds
>Bulgarian. Later, the Serbs reversed that policy and CHNAGED the national
>consciousness of the people. The Bulgarian state committed many grave
>mistakes for allowing this to happen - the list starts with Stamboliisky
>and goes to Dimitrov. So - it became irreversible. But this is irrelevant
>at present. You feel Macedonian, hence - you are Macedonian. But just speak
>to Macedonians in Bulgaria and you will find for yourself what they think.

Some of the people have changed as "Bulgarian", some, as you said, as
"Serbian", and some as "Greeks", especially after the WWII, because of
many different reasons, but many of them haven't done it (as eg. my
ancestors). As I've written, my grany was always a Macedonian, even in
the Serbian King's guard. I have no right to tell someone how to feel
or think, but (as you said) I have a right to express my feelings and
thinkings.


>
>Goce, personal stories are of no use in such dialogues. I've mentioned once

By many personal stories (and some immaginations) there are written many books.
So?

>
>>But we should know that the truth is very, very painfull.
>
>It is, indeed. It may be better, to think for the future and not for the
>pains.
>
Yes, the FUTURE, eh!, how nice it could be.

>Likewise
>
>Luben
>
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------
>"Let us not allow splits and splintering to frighten us. It is, indeed, a
>pity, but what can we do, since we are Bulgarians and all suffer from one
>common disease"
>				Gotse Delchev
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Goce.