Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Sierra and Clemente
From: guilford@otago.ac.nz
Date: 9 Apr 92 11:35:54 +1300
Organization: University of Otago, Dunedin, New Zealand

In article <1992Apr7.162505.11395@sjuphil.uucp>, pbenjami@sjuphil.uucp (Paul Benjamin) writes:

> In article <204487@unix.cis.pitt.edu> dtate@unix.cis.pitt.edu (David M Tate) writes:

>>What were Clemente's skills?  Hitting for high average, playing defense, and
>>hitting more triples than any other player since WW2.  Clemente, in his prime,
>>routinely hit .330-.350, in a time when pitchers were dominant.  His 160-some
>>triples are an astonishing feat for his era.

> He had the top batting average for the 1960's. So, offensively he was more
> like Boggs and Gwynn and Carew than Sierra. The kicker is that he was
> a combination of that type of offense and phenomenal defense, which none
> of the above had. 4 batting titles and 12 Gold Gloves.

Uh, no, Clemente was much more like Sierra than Boggs or Gwynn or Carew.
He hit home runs.  Sierra has hit .300 two of the last three years.  If
you like, Clemente was more like Puckett than Sierra.

>>What do I mean by that?  Simply this: Sierra has already had three offensive
>>seasons better than Clemente's second-best year.  Sierra is 26 this year; 

I think DT's numbers showed otherwise....  If you have access to a
baseball encyclopedia, look up Clemente's career sometime.

> harder on RH hitters. Only Kiner did well there, by pulling the ball
> right down the LF line. Clemente early in his career was intentionally

Was that the original "Kiner's Corner?"

> copying Kiner's approach, and hit 20+ HR twice, but then Stargell was
> brought up from the minors, and Clemente intentionally changed his
> hitting approach to emphasize average over power to get on base in
> front of Stargell (I think this a mistake, in restrospect). Can you
> imagine a guy who just won the MVP changing his hitting approach in
> this way? Unbelievable.

What's the matter with this?  He won the MVP at 31.  Your own numbers 
(PRO+) showed Clemente putting up his best years at the ages of 32 and 34.  
He slugged .536 in the MVP year, then .554 and .544 in the other two.
His OBP went up.  It kind of looks like it worked, doesn't it?  Or
at least it didn't fail miserably....

> Clemente doubted his power. Certainly he had at least as much as
> Yazstremski (sp?) who got 400HRs. If Clemente had played in one of

While we're randomly twitting old Carl, everyone remember to remember
this fascinating stat: Reggie Jackson's lifetime road BA was .015 higher
than Yastrzemski's....

> If Clemente were playing today, and in Wrigley/Fenway/Atlanta/etc.
> I think we'd be looking at 35HR, .350+BA, .400+ OBA, .500 slug, with a
> Gold Glove every year. In other words, Boggs with the power of
> Bonds or Sierra, and better defense than anyone else.

A second connection with Boggs.  Boggs with power and better defense, and
also with speed and without patience at the plate.  Boggs is probably the
median distant ML player from Clemente.  

One wonders if there aren't some current ML players who could benefit
from trying to cut down on power and raise their average.  Maybe George
Bell should try it.  Probably couldn't hurt.

Bill Guilford