HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: peter@ferranti.com (Peter da Silva)
Subject: Re: The need for an assembler (was: Favorite CPU)
Organization: Xenix Support, FICC
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 19:06:40 GMT

In article <1992Aug19.205606.4808@ecl.psu.edu> bjj@ecl.psu.edu (Bryan J. Jensen) writes:
> Politically Correct applies to languages too I guess.  The democrats
> would be proud of you.  You are claiming that no aspect of a language
> affects code reliability.

No, just that programmer quality is more important than language quality.

> So the ADA people were just wasting their time.

Well, yes. But not because a good language is a bad idea, but because
ADA isn't a good language. ADA is far too complex, it fell in the crack
between conventional Algol-type languages and object-oriented languages
and ended up neither fish nor fowl... and on life support to boot.

Modula 2 would have been a good language if Wirth could have brought himself
to standardise the I/O subsystem. As it is, it's better than C but I can't
use it.
-- 
Peter da Silva                                               `-_-'
$ EDIT/TECO LOVE                                              'U` 
%TECO-W-OLDJOKE Not war?                        Have you hugged your wolf today?
Ferranti Intl. Ctls. Corp.      Sugar Land, TX  77487-5012       +1 713 274 5180
From: lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: 9600 baud ignorance??
Date: 17 Aug 92 19:17:03 GMT
Reply-To: lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner)
Organization: Columbia University

In article <c8922369.714019618@jupiter.newcastle.edu.au> c8922369@jupiter.newcastle.edu.au (Leon James Garde) writes:

>Well, in a way thats right: My definition of modem baud rates.
>: The rs232 baud rate required to match the data flow along the 
>modem's channel bit for bit. rs232 requires baud = bps; thus when the modem's
>channel handles 9600 bps, it can then be considered a 9600 baud modem.
>No matter what channel/source encoding is done, the information is transfered at
>9600 bps along the channel . The result of channel encoding/source encoding
>may be data arriving at 38400 bps but the information content is
>still arriving at 9600 bps and in rs232 thats 9600 baud.

What about modems that use varying rates to get the job done?

The "interface rate" to the modem back to the computer doesn't change, just
the throughput.  Further, many modems require xon/xoff or RTS/CTS signalling
because they are buffering the data while the actual throughput rate either
doesn't match the potential interface rate or occasionally lag behind while
retries occur or conditions change effective rates or whatever.  In this case
the interface rate not only doesn't change, it gives little indication of
just what's happening on the line.

Sometimes it is desirable to raise the interface rate beyond the next whole 
multiple of standard rate that is higher, since it might improve buffering
of output in systems that tend to get intermittently sluggish, while in
other systems with good interrupt-level buffering, it gains nothing beyond
the interface baud rate that meets or exceeds the actual throughput rate.

The same analogy holds in using serial printers, which often effectively print
at rates that are data dependent.  A printer that white-space optimizes will
print well-formatted text faster than a dumb one.  Many form-feeds might
slow the rate down compared to heavily filled pages.  If an application is
searching through large amounts of data to create intermittent printed output
then the faster interface rate may improve overall throughput if the system
changes from diskbound to cpubound often enough, especially if there are 
other tasks present.

In any case, over the years you will find someone foolishly referring to
how fast their printer is because "it's 9600 baud" or something :-).

cjl
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: pdt@mundil.cs.mu.OZ.AU (Peter David THOMPSON)
Subject: Re: 9600 baud ignorance??
Organization: Computer Science, University of Melbourne, Australia
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 23:59:11 GMT

rdippold@cancun.qualcomm.com (Ron Dippold) writes:

>pdt@mundil.cs.mu.OZ.AU (Peter David THOMPSON) writes:
>>I have a proposal: Why not name modems by the most important descriptor of
>>all: Transfer rate.

>>Example : "My FrobCo modem transfers 8K per second using Zmodem from
>>XYZsite."

>It all depends on what data you were transferring, if the modem has
>any sort of data compression at all.

True, but everyone transfers archived and compressed files anyway, 
don't they? If we must, we could start comp.benchmarks.modems....
I dnon't care any more.
pdt.
From: zzassgl@uts.mcc.ac.uk (Geoff Lane)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Need a copy of Creation of World in IBM JCL
Date: 17 Aug 92 08:19:33 GMT
Organization: Manchester Computing Centre, Manchester, England, M13 9PL.


I used to have a listing of an IBM JCL job which described the creation of
the world in terms of IBM JCL commands.  Does anyone have a copy they can
send me?

Thanks,
-- 
Geoff. Lane.                                  Janet: zzassgl@uk.ac.mcc.uts
UTS Sys Admin, Manchester Computing Centre, Oxford Rd, Manchester, M13 9PL
Xref: sparky alt.folklore.computers:12453 comp.unix.misc:3206
From: lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner)
Subject: Re: Early Programable calculators.
Reply-To: lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner)
Organization: Columbia University
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1992 07:35:12 GMT

In article <Bt1KyJ.3yE@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG> phil@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG (Phil Gustafson) writes:
>
>Mathatron lived in the former Waltham Watch factory building in Waltham,
>MA.

Say, wasn't that where chocolate-chip cookies were invented?

cjl
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.unix.misc
From: lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner)
Subject: Re: The need for an assembler (was: Favorite CPU)
Reply-To: lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner)
Organization: Columbia University
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 08:13:26 GMT

In article <1992Aug13.010431.4746@ecl.psu.edu> bjj@ecl.psu.edu (Bryan J. Jensen) writes:
>
>A long time ago, someone paid a programmer to optimize this code.
>Presumably this programmer used all the typical high level language
>optimization techniques you mentioned (just one I think - the stopwatch).
>Either the programmer missed the obvious, or the compiler changed after
>the optimization was done, because he missed the problem with the indices
>and functions.  But, now the word was out, this code had been
>"professionally" optimized, so that's the way it stayed for years.
>
>Most any assembly language programmer would have written this optimally
>first time, and if he blew it, it would have been obvious.
>
>You, however, favor giving an abstract description of the program
>to a compiler, tinkering with compiler switches to see if it gets
>any better, then declaring it perfection.

This gets to the heart of the matter: hll programmers depend on the compiler
to do "magic" of various hues and colors for them; for most of them, they
haven't a clue as to what's going on, and the best they can do is to "tinker"
with what little options are available to them, namely the command-line
switches to operating the compiler.  They have given over so much control
of the ultimate running code to the compiler that they can never take it back.
Admittedly there will be unusually qualified hll writers who truly understand
how to make the compiler do what they want.  So, instead of tinkering with
the option switches, they tinker with the code.

By and large, assembly language programmers *do not* tinker.  I don't want to
know if a compiler may/may not do it the "right" way.  I know that as an
assembly programmer I can ensure that myself.  Even those better-qualified
hll code-writers have to admit that they sometimes use assembly language
in spurts to correct limitations of the compiler, thus they are still
tinkerers, because effort is going into deciding where to apply how much.  This
seems to imply a moving target with the attendant problems.

cjl

Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: zrepachol@cc.curtin.edu.au (Paul Repacholi)
Subject: Re: The need for an assembler
Organization: Curtin University of Technology
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1992 10:27:31 GMT

In article <1992Aug19.160844.13884@auto-trol.com> davgot@auto-trol.com 
(David Gottner) writes (edited):
>I have complete control of the hardware with some HLL's (like C).  If I want
>a left shift I use '<<'.  If I want a signed multiply I use '*' on two signed
>numbers.  What more control could I want?

>I suppose that there are >>some<< limitations.  You can't write interrupt
>routines with standard C, but that is what assembler is for.  However, C
>gives you so much control that assembly is rarely necessary.

Or precise access to variables that have side effects, or write only variables
or interfaceing to exec routines with different calling conventions, or require-
ments of precise alignment or stack usage.

If I can 'handwave' that anything I can't do is un-needed, I can then rightly
claim to be able to do anything!

Some have claimed that C is all they need for "any" problem, and that they turn
out 'portable' code as a result. OK, a challenge to those... write a C program
that will read 2 blocks off a Dectape/linktape/microtape ( Charles will give you
the details of the interface and the tape formats... :-)) ) and output them
to a 8 bit wide port "FOO". you may assume FOO will swallow the low order 8 bits
of anything you write to it in 0 time, with no side effects. When you have
written your 'portable' C program, I will tell you if its for a 12, 16, 18, 32,
36 or 64 bit machine.

~Paul

Xref: sparky alt.folklore.computers:12728 comp.unix.misc:3274
From: bygg@sunet.se (Johnny Eriksson)
Subject: Re: Favorite CPU
Organization: Royal Institute of Technology, Stockholm, Sweden
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 21:14:18 GMT

In article <9208121907.AA27870@thep.lu.se> magnus@THEP.LU.SE (Magnus Olsson) writes:

! Of course, if you're writing software which will decide matters of
! life or death, bounds checking isn't enough - what if you've written
! an air traffic control system, or, even worse, the fly-by-wire
! software in an airplane, and in the middle of a critical manuever you
! get the message
! 
! Array index out of bounds - core dumped?
! 
! It is a highly non-trivial matter what to do in cases like this -
! if we catch the error, we must know exactly what to do about it in every
! conceivable situation.

This reminds me of a principle I try to follow:

Steinbach's guideline for systems programmers:
"Never test for an error condition you don't know how to handle."

! Of course, in real life, programs like these use sophisticated error
! recovery mechanisms - real exception handling rather than just
! abort-on-overflow. Or do they?

Do you really want to know what goes on in the cockpit of the 747 you're
travelling in?  Or what the kitchen of your favourite restaurant looks
like?

! Magnus Olsson                   | \e+      /_
! Dept. of Theoretical Physics    |  \  Z   / q
! University of Lund, Sweden      |   >----<           
! Internet: magnus@thep.lu.se     |  /      \===== g
! Bitnet: THEPMO@SELDC52          | /e-      \q

--Johnny

"A major idea is never general."
From: bob@kc2wz.bubble.org (Bob Billson)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Your co-worker may be an alien
Date: 15 Aug 92 02:31:33 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Color Computer 3: Tandy's 'game' machine

soley@trooa.enet.dec.com (Norman Soley) says:

>Sometime in the last decade one of the supermarket tabloids published a 
>list of 10 ways you could spot aliens among your co-workers. The list was 
>written so as to suggest that computer geek types were actually aliens.
>I remember it was posted on the door of the CSC room at Waterloo, among 
>other places. Anyone else remember this or better yet have a copy?

I don't have a copy of the list.  I do remember two of the items:

1.  The person (alien) collects various types of electronic equipment.

2.  The person (alien) has lots of radio equipment and antennas on their
    house.  He/she/(it) often claims to be a ham radio operator.  (And you
    thought we hams were just talking to other countries...HA!)

Actually the great leader was very upset to learn about the article and have
our cov...er...forget you heard that earthma...er..what I mean to say is *IF*
the list was true, I'll bet *IF* there was a great leader he/she/(it) would
be very angry our...er..the aliens cover was blown.
-- 
  Bob Billson, KC2WZ                          | internet: bob@kc2wz.bubble.org
                                              |           kc2wz@amsat.org
  $nail:  21 Bates Way,  Westfield, NJ 07090  | uucp:     ...!uunet!kc2wz!bob
                  C code.  C code run.  Run code run...<please!>
From: marks@cs.man.ac.uk (Mark Stephens (MSc Stephen Furber))
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: why is it called a CD-ROM?
Date: 13 Aug 92 11:52:36 GMT

murphy@npri6.npri.com (David P. Murphy) writes:

>>>A sub-peeve of mine is the term "CD-ROM".  I really wish they would have
>>>called it CD-Data, CD-ReadOnlyStorage, ROCD, or something.
>>>
>>>anthony@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Anthony J Stieber)

> >Don't you think that the term Compact Disc is already quite ridiculous?
> >Naming a medium after its *size*? Laser Disc would be a much better name,
> >but unfortunately this is nowadays applied to *video* discs. Oh my.

Perhaps you should see the Compact Disc as the successor to the Compact
Cassette. All cassette I remember had the compact cassette logo written on
them wether or the were made by Philips, I thought it was because it was
part of the licensing deal for the technology. I guess it is a similar
reason the compact discs have the CD logo on them now, just to remind you
who invented this particular standard.

Mark.
marks@cs.man.ac.uk
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: cflatter@nrao.edu (Chris Flatters)
Subject: Re: You know you've been hacking too long.
Reply-To: cflatter@nrao.edu
Organization: NRAO
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 21:58:48 GMT

In article 605@zia.aoc.nrao.edu, dbriggs@zia.aoc.nrao.edu (Daniel Briggs) writes:
>In article <1992Aug13.154430.5880@nrao.edu>
>  cflatter@nrao.edu writes:
>>This seems to be a demonstration that red and blue light are focussed at
>>different depths by a lens.  This applies to the lens in the human eye as
>>well as Bill's glasses: hence the design principle against using bright
>>primary colours in near proximity on a computer display (the eye has to
>>continually shift focus between the two colours which can lead to eyestrain
>>after prolonged use).
>
>What does primary colors have to do with it?  I'd think that you would want
>to minimize the wavelength difference between colors in near proximity.

Correct.  Saturated primary colours tend to have large wavelength differences
between them (in general avoid the use of highly saturated colours).  

	Chris Flatters
	cflatter@nrao.edu
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: nolan@twg.com (John Huston)
Subject: Re: "We don't need no steenking badges..."
Reply-To: nolan@twg.com
Organization: Metro Goldwyn Mayer Studios
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 19:47:22 GMT


In article <1992Aug11.011838.9946@nas.nasa.gov>, eugene@orville.nas.nasa.gov 
	(Eugene N. Miya) wins the ToSM Bonus:

|>Alphonso Vadoya (sp)

Bingo! Or at least close enuf. The 500 pts are in the mail. Good work and all
that drivel.

|>frequently used to order pizzas to house bath rooms at Caltech, I was 
!>informed. A long running joke with Scurvvies. Correct spelling is in the 
|>credits.

--
Nolan "Bad Movia Trivia Whiz in Training" Hinshaw
Internet: nolan@twg.com			Dingalingnet: (415)962-7197	
"If you don't know how to do something, you don't know how to do it
 with a computer." David Wittenberg, in Risks Digest 13.70
"Boy, was I in for a dose of reality." Randall K. Abler
"... necrophilia doesn't really hurt anybody."  Rick Gordon
"Well, first of all, your stance is too wide"
From: mst@vexpert.dbai.tuwien.ac.at (Markus Stumptner)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Zuse Computers
Date: 19 Aug 92 22:11:01 GMT
Organization: DB and ES Subdivision, TU Vienna

From article <1992Aug19.121113.25537@public.sub.org>, by peterk@public.sub.org (Peter Kittel):
> For his very first machines, Zuse also invented a high-level programming
> language, named Calculus, I think. But when memory serves me, this was
> never really implemented.

Yes, it was called Plankalkuel (Planning Calculus).  He started work
on it in 1943.  Basically, you have variables whose types are built up
recursively, using something like record and array structures, from a
single basic type that represents boolean or bit values.  Numbers are
bit arrays, and so on.  It used a notation that has been called
"two-dimensional".  Lines were read/written in groups of three, where
the first line contained variable name beginnings and operators, the
second the rest of the variable names, and the third contained a kind
of comments that listed the variable types. Loop and subroutine bodies
were specified by bracketing statements and statement sequences, with
the intention apparently being that of arbitrarily deep nesting (my
memory about all of this is quite fuzzy).  Syntactical detail: The
assignment arrow that Zuse used was proposed for the Algol 58 standard
but replaced by := under strong pressure from the US side.

There is a paper by Bauer and Woessner (The Plankalkuel of Konrad
Zuse) describing the principles of the language in the July 1972
Communications of the ACM (Vol. 15:7).

-- 
Markus Stumptner                                mst@vexpert.dbai.tuwien.ac.at
University of Technology Vienna                 vexpert!mst@relay.eu.net
Paniglg. 16, A-1040 Vienna, Austria             ...mcsun!vexpert!mst
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: pfe@meryl.csd.uu.se (Per Ekman)
Subject: 5ESS & Big projects (Was: The need for an assembler)
Organisation: DVL, Uppsala University
Reply-To: pfe@meryl.csd.uu.se 
Organization: UDAC, Uppsala, Sweden
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1992 11:39:40 GMT

lezz@merlin.dev.cdx.mot.com (Lezz Giles) writes:

>I am a graduate in Computer Science and I've worked in computing for eight
>years, all the time on large projects (the first was AT&T's 5ESS, rumoured
>to be the largest software project ever, with at least a couple of thousand
>developers at any time, and my current project has between 100 and 200
>developers).  I've also worked on smaller projects at university, at summer
>jobs, and as fill-ins during my working life.

What was (is?) 5ESS about? Maybe someone involved could tell us some
horror-stories or anecdotes about being involved in such a mega-project.

-pfe 
(desperately trying to get away from the assembly vs. hl war^H^H^Hdebate.)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.unix.misc
From: rbe@yrloc.ipsa.reuter.COM (Robert Bernecky)
Subject: Re: Favorite CPU
Reply-To: rbe@yrloc.ipsa.reuter.COM (Robert Bernecky)
Organization: SNake Island Research Inc, Toronto
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 92 21:46:14 GMT

In article <1992Aug14.054435.20122@news.columbia.edu> lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) writes:
>In article <id.1N9S.MV7@ferranti.com> peter@ferranti.com (Peter da Silva) writes:
>>In article <1992Aug8.175306.4732@ecl.psu.edu> bjj@ecl.psu.edu (Bryan J. Jensen) writes:
>>> Most C programmers lack the ability or initiative to add optimizations
>>> to their C compiler.  More important, how is the C programmer to know
>>> that his executable is wretchedly optimized?
>>
>>It runs too slowly.
>
>Considering the number of buggy C programs out there, how do you expect the
>C programer to know if his program runs too slowly when apparently much of
>the time he doesn't know if it even *does* run?

Simple. Any bozo can tell that program is running too slow. 
It takes an expert to tell if it's producing the right answers...

8^}




Robert Bernecky      rbe@yrloc.ipsa.reuter.com  bernecky@itrchq.itrc.on.ca 
Snake Island Research Inc  (416) 368-6944   FAX: (416) 360-4694 
18 Fifth Street, Ward's Island
Toronto, Ontario M5J 2B9 
Canada
From: ivie@cc.usu.edu (CP/M lives!)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: CASIO watch display question
Date: 16 Aug 92 20:13:31 MDT
Organization: Utah State University

In article <1992Aug16.045515.21844@gossip.urich.edu>, helen@nomad.urich.edu (Helen C. O'Boyle) writes:
> When my CASIO's have needed new batteries in the past, the LCD panel
> has simply stopped displaying anything.  Is the above just another
> symptom of a nearly-dead battery, or is it necessary to take the thing
> in for service?

Probably, especially since running the light probably takes more power than
the rest of the watch put together. When you turned on the light, you probably
lowered the power supply far enough to drive the machine crazy. Turning off
the light upped the supply far enough to run the display again.

Roger Ivie
ivie@cc.usu.edu
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: sasbmt@jjoyce.unx.sas.com (Bruce Tindall)
Subject: Re: More license places
Originator: sasbmt@jjoyce.unx.sas.com
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 21:36:11 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: SAS Institute Inc.


In article <1992Aug11.203557.6024@ncsu.edu>, currin@eos.ncsu.edu (RICHARD D CURRIN) writes:
>
>I saw one the other day "UNIX GURU". I was told by a friend the car is driven by 
>the wife of the guy who invented the usenet.
>RC

I've seen "UNIXGURU" in the parking lot here at SAS a lot.  I also
overheard somebody at a recent SAS party being introduced as "the
guy who invented usenet," so it could very well be that he was attending
the party with his (SAS-employed) wife.  This place is so big (1500 people)
that I don't know everybody any more, and I don't know whose car that is.

"UNIXWZRD" belongs to one of the Unix systems admins.

A Quality Assurance guy who worked on the original release of SAS
software for Personal Computers had "PC SAS" but gave it up for some
reason.  Maybe the trademark nazgul got him.

Somebody at SAS has "/DEV/CAR".  Another (definitely a NON-unix type
of guy) has "BALR".

Not all the computer nerds here have computer nerd license plates.
Some have *other* kinds of nerdy license plates :-)
One, who is a hang-glider pilot in her spare time, has "AIRHORNE" 
(pronounced "air-horny", meaning she is very eager to get back in the 
air and fly).   Mine is "16JUNE04", which fellow James Joyce fans will 
instantly recognize as the day (6/16/1904) on which the novel _Ulysses_
takes place.
-- 
Bruce Tindall, Core Testing Manager, SAS Institute Inc., Cary NC 27513