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Date:         Sun, 13 Dec 1992 15:37:53 -0400
From:         WEISTL82@SNYONEVA.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Help

Hello, fellow X-Culters, I wish you all peace at this holiday season.

I am traveling to England on the 26th and will be gone for a whole month, I
would appreciate it if someone would disconnect me as of today, I have lost the
instructions on how to do it myself and I will reconnect when I return for next
term.

Again, have a good New Year and I will "see" you all in January.

Thank you-
Traci Weiss
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Date:         Fri, 18 Dec 1992 12:04:40 MEZ
From:         Jie Qiang Wu <CHWUJIE@NYX.UNI-KONSTANZ.DE>
Subject:      UNSUBSCRIPTION !

UNSUBSCRIPTION
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Date:         Sat, 19 Dec 1992 10:28:05 CST
From:         Garry Dyck <gdyck@CCU.UMANITOBA.CA>
Subject:      Re: Revisit the mission of Xcult but first...
              APPARENTLY." at

Douglas,

When someone says that
the early Judeo God is neither kindly nor tolerant
I can only assume that s/he has not read the Bible or as you say the Old
Testament.  God is abundantly kind and tolerant.  Evidence abounds.

I thought that this was an unnecesarily derogatory statement.


Garry
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Date:         Wed, 16 Dec 1992 13:35:06 -0500
From:         AHMED@DAYTON.BITNET
Subject:      Re: god's academic record (fwd)

Ahmed,

The Scientific community does not deny the existence because it cannot find
out why it exists...but it believes that ultimately, it will
find out....Just because something exists and we do not know why does
not mean it comes from God or Allah....there just may be other explanations for
   it...

zahir
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Date:         Fri, 11 Dec 1992 16:30:26 EST
From:         motte <MNAGI@CCVM.SUNYSB.EDU>
Subject:      Re: sad news
              11 Dec 1992 10:45:02 -0700 from <zyong@LINFIELD.EDU>

I'm a new activist on this news letter.  I would like, one must say wit
h great regret, you to know that I'm sorry to her about Patrick's death.  Where
ever he might be, I would pray that he rest in peace....

                                                        motte...
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Date:         Wed, 16 Dec 1992 08:50:49 CST
From:         Garry Dyck <gdyck@CCU.UMANITOBA.CA>
Subject:      Re: Interpretations of God
              APPARENTLY." at

We could continue this discussion and try to determine whether or not God
can be proven with facts or whether God in the Koran/Talmud/Bible are the
same (compare the view of salvation in each to see the differences in
theology), but let us move to the point of this list.  I accept the fact
that many of you do not agree with my view of an absolute God.  Proving
this can be left to other lists dealing with religion.  My concern is with
the acceptance of this position.  The predominant view here in Canada is
that all religions are correct.  This excludes adherents of Judaism,
Christianity and Islam.  Furthermore, the view is that I can not cooperate
with others because I have a view of an absolute God.  The view implies
that only those who agree that all religions are correct can learn to
cooperate with others.

This is a frightening view.  It suggests that we must all melt into one.
There is no celebration of our differences.  I have strong beliefs and I
think that those that hold other beliefs are wrong.  I think we need to
talk about the differences.  I hope that I can talk to people about my
beliefs (at appropriate times and places).  I refuse to reduce my beliefs
to include all three views of Jesus (one of many prophets, God, a
heretic).  I am a pacifist and do not believe in any kind of violence,
physical or psychological, in order to persuade others.  But we should
feel free to communicate what we believe even if those beliefs are
absolute.

Even though I am new to this list, I feel very uncomfortable saying all
this because I fear it may stifle future conversations.  Does anyone else
on this list hold absolute beliefs?
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Date:         Tue, 15 Dec 1992 18:48:00 EST
From:         MJMCGUIR@OWUCOMCN.BITNET
Subject:      Interpretations of God

   Garry writes that he is opposed to Zahir's stated view that "there is only
one God, who goes by different names." Furthermore, he states that to believe
that is to imply that God is a fool, because God certainly would never have
given three different groups (Jews, Christians, and Muslims) three different
views of Himself.

   I have to take Zahir's side in this one. First, although Garry is right that
each of the three holy books proclaims that its god is the only one, close
perusal of each book reveals some agreement between them. Specifically, Judaism
gave us Christianity. Jesus Christ was a Jew; the religion bearing his name
was the result of differing interpretations of what had been Jewish law. In
addition, the Koran identifies Jesus Christ as a prophet, though Mohammed is,
of course, THE prophet. Furthermore, the Jewish and Islamic faiths both sprang
from the lineage of Abraham: Islam from his son, Ishmael, and Judaism from
Issac. So, it seems fair to say that all three religions are agreed on TWO
things: that the God in whom they believe is the only one, and that, in fact,
that God is the same one.

   I would also submit to you, as evidence, the visit made by Anwar el-Sadat,
then president of Egypt, to Jerusalem in 1977. At that time, the two countries
were officially at war, but Sadat would not hear of cancelling the visit. He
began his address to Israel's Knesset (national parliament) with these words:

                Why have I come before you today, when relations between
                our two countries are still governed by hostility and
                suspicion? I have come because the Israeli people want
                facts, and I can provide them. I have come because no more
                blood need be spilt on the fields of battle. I have come
                because we all care about our children. And I have come
                because whether we call him Yahweh, Jehovah, or Allah, we
                all worship the same God.

Anwar el-Sadat received a standing ovation after he delivered that opening
statement.

   As I said before, I'm in Mr. Ahmed's camp on this one!


                        --- Matt McGuire ---
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Date:         Wed, 16 Dec 1992 09:08:06 CST
From:         Garry Dyck <gdyck@CCU.UMANITOBA.CA>
Subject:      Re: Right and Wrong

I disagree with Adam Karp's suggestion that there are no spiritual
absolutes.  Religion is not my pacifier. My point is that although his
words sound like they would be agreeable to all religions they are not.
They are only acceptable to those religions that have no absolutes.

It would seem that some of you live by only one absolute:
        There are no absolutes!

8-)   (I wear glasses)

(I think I forgot to sign my last message.  I will try to work on doing
that more faithfully.)


Garry
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Date:         Wed, 16 Dec 1992 11:02:35 -0700
From:         Zhao Yong <zyong@LINFIELD.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Odd greetings

Greetings among Chinese may sound odd to foreigners:
A. Chi guo fan liao ma? (Have you eaten yet?)
B. Chi guo le. OR mei you. (Yes OR No)

When hearing a CHinese question like "Have you eaten yet?" or "Where are
you going?", you don't need to think hard about the fact because it's just
greeting.

Zhao Yong
From: STCHRI@SSCVAX.CIS.MCMASTER.CA (DOUGL, APPARENTLY.)
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Subject: Re: Interpretations of God
Date: 16 Dec 92 12:03:23 GMT
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Pardon me if this has been raised already but I have been away the last two week
   s.

Reviewing the discussion of the 'legitimate' forms of God, what is striking
is that the only God under consideration is the Judeo/Christian/Islamic God,
automatically excluding the spiritual understandings of the rest of the world-th
   at is, the world outside the mediterranean sphere.

Are the Gods or spirit beings of the Dani of Papua New Guinea or the Dogum
or the Yoruba or the Samoans to be subsumed under the Mediterranean God as
simply variations on that theme? Does this not reduce the God-beleifs of the
world beyond the Levant to error, imposing our limited and limiting view
of God on non-JCI's? Is this not a kind of religious or spiritual
colonialism as pernicious and culturally insensitive as material
colonization?

God seems a local phenomenon [Matt and Mr.Ahmed are correct in noting that
the JCI God is indeed one and the same being] and to discuss God in one
locale as the 'true' meaning of God strikes me as religious supremacy.

Douglass St.Christian
Anthropology
McMaster University
Canada
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Date:         Mon, 14 Dec 1992 18:09:00 PDT
From:         AKARP@GONZAGA.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Religious expression

I was always told never to discuss three topics: sex, religion, and politics.
Needless to say, I've taken poetic/dramatic license with all three of them,
in my personal life and in lively discussion. I never was a conformist.

Anyway, Gerry brings up a good point, though I'm hard pressed to agree with
him entirely.

Perhaps by listing the various demigods and deities of your choice-approach 1
the author is merely reflecting her/his own theological/secular perspective,
just as much as you have the right to wish all existentialists to a lower
circle of He(aven) if you like :)

I'm just winding down in my Sociology of Religion class and what I have
learned most from it is that although the sociologists's perspective is almost
always left-of-center, I subscribe to it 110% (James and Berger are gods
(lowercase) in my book).

The bottom line is the same: the pluralist, inclusive view of wishing all
believers, agnostics, or atheists a fine winter season is much better than
the previous dogmatic, absolutist, rationalistic rhetoric that has created
rife and bloodshed the past two millennia (I don't mean to rag on Christian-
ity, it's just that Christ's posthumous followers seemed to have besmirched
his good name and blessed message for Christians and non-Christians alike).

ERACISM
Tikkun Olam
Adam Karp
akarp@gonzaga.edu
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Date:         Sat, 12 Dec 1992 11:47:48 -0800
From:         JACKSON <BELLM3078@BESTSD.SDSU.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Hard times in Germany & GATT for PRC

kerry, this is jackson chan, i graduated the early of this year , however i am v
 very interesting to suscriped listserve regarding the china event, would u mind
  give more detail about how should i enter to the computer to make a subscripti
 on of it, tks.
jackson
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Date:         Sun, 13 Dec 1992 17:56:59 EST
From:         Kerry Reese <U350000@UNIVSCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Hard times in Germany & GATT for PRC
              12 Dec 1992 11:47:48 -0800 from <BELLM3078@BESTSD.SDSU.EDU>

Hi Jackson!
 This is Kerry.  You can join the China News (in Canada) by entering the
following command to the computer:


    Tell listserv at UVVM sub CNC-L Jackson Chan

That should do it.  You should get a letter from them via e-mail soon
after that saying that you are subscribed.
About CNC-L:
     The subscribers submit copies of newspaper articles about the
People's Republic of China and sometimes, Chinese students in the US
and Canada.  Many of the articles are from UPI and the Associated
Press, but others are from Japan Economic Newshire, PRC newspapers,
Australian newspapers, etc.  The editor of the list also submits
articles.
     Subscription is automatic and free.  You'll get two or three
pieces of mail from them each day. Each piece has about four articles
in it.
     In conclusion, it's a very good news group.  I have learned a lot.
Well, that's it. Enjoy!  Bye everyone!
                                        Kerry
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Date:         Fri, 11 Dec 1992 15:30:05 -0500
From:         AHMED@DAYTON.BITNET
Subject:      Re: CBS: Eng is the Best Language?!

Emmy,

Sometimes interesting discussions about males and females in different
cultures can come of what is initially an innocious or even offensive
statement..... We just might begin a discussion on the cultural aspects
that cause men to behave the way they do or women behaving the way they do..

We all have a way of stimulating discussion on this network and perhaps
mine is....unorthodox ?....

I just happened to have tagged on a statement after indicating that you
decide which is a better culture or race or language...but perhaps we
can decide which is the better gender....  It seems to have gotten on the
runaway and just might take off.....and if it does not, maybe there will
be another topic and another subject to take off on....

zahir
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Date:         Tue, 15 Dec 1992 22:54:46 -0500
From:         Joyce Neu <ccjn@EMORYU1.CC.EMORY.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Odd greetings

From Wolof, a language spoken in Senegal (first two lines of greeting are
borrowed from Arabic into Wolof):

Asalaam malekum (spelling reflects Senegalese pronunciation, NOT Arabic)
        "Hello" or, roughly, "peace"
Malekum salaam
        "Hello" or, "peace"
Ana wa kerge?
        "Where's your house?"  (roughly, How's your family [in the house]?)
Nunga fe.
        "Over there."  (roughly, "They're fine [they're over there]).
Diam ngam?
        "Do you have peace?"
Diam rek.
        "Peace only."
Fall.
        (Common last name--would be name of other person)
NDiaye.
        (Common last name--would be name of 1st person)
Fall.
NDiaye.
Fall.
NDiaye..... (this exchange of last names could go on a while or only a few
                times, usually while shaking hands, although if it goes on
                for a while (usually between men only), then they kind of stay
                with hands held in a handshake, but there's little movement
                to the shake.

Greetings are VERY important in Wolof society and help determine status
relationships. One cannot ask a stranger on the street for directions or
help without first going through greetings. Same with going to the market
to shop--greetings come before "How much?"  I really liked this aspect of
Wolof society--putting a high premium on recognizing the person you
are speaking with. Seemed far more humane than what most of us do in our
everyday lives here in the U.S. ("Hi" & "Bye" and even those aren't
generally included in business transactions).

Diam ak diam
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Date:         Tue, 15 Dec 1992 15:50:06 CST
From:         Garry Dyck <gdyck@CCU.UMANITOBA.CA>
Subject:      Re: Religious expression

Adam Karp writes

"The bottom line is the same: the pluralist, inclusive view of wishing all
believers, agnostics, or atheists a fine winter season is much better than
the previous dogmatic, absolutist, rationalistic rhetoric that has created
rife and bloodshed the past two millennia (I don't mean to rag on Christian-
ity, it's just that Christ's posthumous followers seemed to have besmirched
his good name and blessed message for Christians and non-Christians alike)."

This is nothing short of dishonesty.  God in Judaism, Christianity and
Islam excludes those who reject Him.  If the adherents of any of those
religions talk as if God were a universalist, they are adopting a world
view different from the one taught in their respective scriptures.

As for your second point, I challenge you to find a religion that someone
has not abused for personal gain.  This is not a problem of the religion
but of the nature of humanity.  There are many people who have held to an
absolute God in a dogmatic fashion in each of these three religions ( and
others besides ) who have with great personal sacrifice established
hospitals, schools, etc.  The religion cannot be blamed for those who
abuse it.

Garry
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Date:         Mon, 14 Dec 1992 09:48:05 -0500
From:         AHMED@DAYTON.BITNET
Subject:      Re: CBS: Eng is the Best Language?!

Emmy,

You are absolutely right....Its not that one thinks a gender is
better but where that statement comes from...

In my case, I have (since the original tongue in cheek statement)
already indicated that my relationships with males from other cultures
and observations over the years have lead me to conclude that the
American female is more open, more adventurous, more humane and more
interesting.....these observations are from travel across the U.S.,
extensive periods of living in 3 states, life on American campuses (more
women go abroad on Study Abroad programs, more women have cross cultural
relationships, use the Counseling Center, participate in support groups
and so on...).....

If those values are important, than I think females are better off... On
the other hand, if objectivity, toughness, strength, drinking ability
and some other adjectives are important, than one may very well come
to the conclusion that females are weaker and more easily manipulated...

zahir

ps... I guess I am hoping people on the network will start sharing their
values and what's important to them... thanks for sharing..
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Date:         Sat, 19 Dec 1992 16:57:00 PDT
From:         AKARP@GONZAGA.BITNET
Subject:      Re: the chinese

Nice topic Douglass:

Canadians: Hmm, I'm a bit biased.  All I remember from my Canadian IntlLaw
prof is his queer way of pronouncing "about," coming out as some version
of "a boat."  I realize that Brits think that their dialect is truer and
cleaner than anything an American can utter.  It's humorous.  I dunno.

Americans; notorious for Lockean individualism, deification of sports figures,
camping/scouting rites of passage, "sanctity" of separation b/w C&S, and
the belief in the freedom thing.

My prejudice I'm working strongly to overcome deals with the Arab world.
Although my spiritual views lie in numerous philosophies (viz., voluntarist
pragmatism), the fact that I'm a Jewish American makes it difficult to
observe the situation in the Middle East without frustration.  I try to
understand the condition of the Palestinian people but when I recall
words of the Saudi Arabian, Lebanese, Syrian, Iraqian, and Iranian leaders
calling for Israel's annihilation (and hearing Palestinians cheer as SCUD
missiles slam into innocent homes of Israeli citizens), anger wells up.
This is a tough one.

*)*)-> The Miscegenator <-(*(*
Adam Karp  [akarp@gonzaga.edu]
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Date:         Wed, 16 Dec 1992 11:44:50 -0500
From:         AHMED@DAYTON.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Religious expression

Garry,

I absolutely agree with you....religion has been misused for a lot
of bloodshed....but I think it has served a lot of people well too...

zahir
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Date:         Fri, 11 Dec 1992 21:13:39 CDT
From:         jean <SOCW9V@UHUPVM1.BITNET>
Subject:      patrick

i have just been skimming my mail and almost missed the news about
patrick.

thanks for telling us, robert.  i feel very very sad.

i felt as though i knew patrick.  during several heated discussions
on this network, he and i corresponded privately.  and even though
we were often on different sides sometimes of an issue, we respected
each other.  no i will go further.  i felt real affection for him
and thought he did for me.  he was part of wht made this network
feel like a community to me.  i will miss him.  i will miss feeling
his support and concern.  i will miss his efforts to make sure things
were clear and that people understood one another.  i will miss his
offers of help, of clarification, of concern.

robert, i know you and he were close friends, so none of us can feel
what you feel.  i just want you to know that some of us feel our own
grief in our own way.  i will really miss knowing he is here with us.

jean
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Date:         Wed, 16 Dec 1992 14:19:41 CST
From:         Garry Dyck <gdyck@CCU.UMANITOBA.CA>
Subject:      Re: Interpretations of God
              a

Zahir writes

"I can work with you, however, I would not be interested in exchanging
views and opinions with anyone who feels they have absolute
knowledge of any specific subject...  I have no wish to have a debate
with you on religion and God....."

Zahir, this is exactly my point.  You begin with the presupposition that
there are no absolutes in the spiritual realm and cut yourself off from
the possibility of being wrong.

To repeat: You have one absolute -- There are no absolutes!

Expand your thinking to include the possibility that absolutes MAY exist
and you will begin to understand the world view of millions of peole on
this earth.

Garry
gdyck@ccu.umanitoba.ca
From: ap290@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ruth M. Hanschka)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.xcult-l
Subject: Re: Ruth, those many complicated Ruths
Date: 20 Dec 1992 22:15:59 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
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NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


Dougal, what *was* that masked message?  All I saw were a bunch of
editor commands, and a bunch of Eve error messages.  Was is supposed to be
something, or did your machine goof?  Or did this one scramble something
again?:-(
-- 
		###	Ruth Hanschka, the Nethead    ###
			- ap290@cleveland.freenet.edu
	      Where anything can happen, and it usually does