HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: hays@ssd.intel.com (Kirk Hays)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Gun Safe
Date: 22 Aug 92 14:54:57 GMT
Organization: Intel Supercomputer Systems Division


|> Then again, I heard a story from a company near Detroit that makes safes
|> specifically for jewelers, with 1/2" steel outside walls, 6" of concrete
|> and 1/4" steel inside walls. Seems one of their safes was opened by
|> professional theives in a jewelery store in 30 minutes with a gadget called
|> a "burn bar".

Ah, the "burn bar", aka a "pipe torch".

Essentially, this is a long piece of iron pipe with an oxygen tank hooked to one
end.

Apply a propane torch to the open end until it's red hot, and, keeping the torch
in play, turn on the pure O2.

The pipe begins to burn white hot, and, if you apply it to the side of a safe,
the steel of the safe will, too.

Note that the pipe gets shorter, and hotter, so plan on turning off the oxygen
at some point.

Note that this is extremely hot, and with that kind of heat comes severe danger
to your hide, and retinas.  Since I can't stop you, I accept no responsibility if
you use/misuse the above information.

Burn bars are the best argument I've seen for buying a gun save with the fire
insulation.

When I was in high school, we used one of these to burn right through a discarded
engine block from a diesel truck, among other things.  Took about 3 minutes, and
used 15' of 3/4" iron pipe.

Why do I post this stuff?  It's just the anarchist in me, I guess.

-- 
Kirk Hays - NRA Life.
Start your day with a little civil disobedience.  Call BATF at 1-800-ATF-GUNS or
1-800-RUN-GUNS, tell them what you think of gun grabbers and government employees
that encourage people to narc on their neighbors.  Good for the soul.
From: ems@michael.apple.com (E. Michael Smith)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Stupid shooter tricks
Date: 22 Aug 92 14:55:12 GMT
Organization: Apple Computer Inc, Cupertino, CA

In article <1992Aug19.171124.26219@news.yale.edu> swatt%mickey@net.yale.edu (Alan Watt) writes:

#On another occasion teaching someone to shoot, a yellowjacket started
#buzzing around her head.  With loaded gun, finger on trigger, she attempted
#to use the gun as a swatter.  I hit the ground.  The shooter, myself, and
#the yellowjacket all survived.
#
#When you are teaching new shooters, be sure to tell them what to expect
#before each new thing you have them do.  Emphasize proper grip and stance
#and make sure they dry-fire it a few times first. When I have someone try a new
#gun, I load just a single round.  That way, the worst that can happen
#is they drop it empty.

I learned this the semi-hard way (just one round).  I was teaching my Mother
to shoot.  Semi-auto .22 short.  6 rds. in magazine.  She takes my 
direction just fine.  Aim is good.  BANG, the taget is hit.  It's a 
coke can and goes flying.  My Mother, in a fit of excitment, turns to 
face me stating proudly 'I HIT IT, I HIT IT!'.  Me, noticing a fully
cocked, loaded semi-auto pointed at my midsection with an excited finger
on the trigger calmly said to Mom 'Do you see that other can?' and 
point down range.  When she turns away from me I stuff my thumb
between hammer and frame while explaining that it's time to give
me the gun now ... I now only load a single shell when instructing
novices ... it keeps the shorts cleaner that way ... and drier too ;-)

-- 

E. Michael Smith  ems@apple.COM

'Whatever you can do, or dream you can, begin it.  Boldness has
 genius, power and magic in it.'  -  Goethe

I am not responsible nor is anyone else.  Everything is disclaimed.
From: danb@hp-ptp.ptp.hp.com (Dan Bergmen)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: finding good high powered rifle
Date: 14 Aug 92 19:11:15 GMT
Organization: HP Pacific Technology Park - Sunnyvale, Ca.


Broning makes two models that I personnally recommend that you take
a look at. These are the B.A.R. (Browning Automatic Rifle) and the
Browning A-Bolt series. The B.A.R. is a finely designed gun that is
well proportioned and quite handsome. The A-Bolt is also finely
finished and is available in a variety of calibers. The fit and
finish of Browning Firearms have always been exemplery IMHO and 
they just feel solid and comfortable to me.

On the subject of calibers, I like 308 over 30-06 for the following
reasons: 1) Felt recoil is much less with 308 (I find them *comfort-
able* to shoot and 30-06 *uncomfortable*)   2) The 308 is a short
action caliber meaning shorter throws for actions and shorter guns.
3) The ballistics compare very favorably and in the 150 grain range
are nearly identical although I've read that 30-06 handles large
(200-220 grain) bullets better and 308 handles smaller (down to 100
grains) bullets better. Hope this helps.
                                      ...Dan
From: jheath@fieldofdreams.npirs.purdue.edu (Jim Heath)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Top Man Stoppers???
Date: 16 Aug 92 22:38:47 GMT
Organization: Center for Environmental and Regulatory Information Systems, Purdue University

#From article <4792@blue.cis.pitt.edu.UUCP>, by dcwst8+@pitt.edu (David C Winters):
# 
# In article <1992Aug14.210200.12308@samba.oit.unc.edu> med.unc.edu!rslugg@concert.net (Robert Slugg) writes:
# #t a Baltimore, MD gun show one dealer had all sorts of specialty shotgun
# #ammo, including the bolo-wire round.  They also had one called the
#                      ^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^
# You mean someone DOES make one of these things?!?
# 
# Don't look at me, folks; I thought they were another urban legend.
#

I know a guy who said he had done it with fishing weights and
line.  He said it cut off an 8" diameter tree rather cleanly.  I
consider him a reliable source, but I didn't _see_ him either
load the shell or fire it. 
-- 
"Land of song, said the warrior bard,           Jim Heath
Though all the world betrays thee.
One sword, at least, thy rights shall guard, (The Minstrel Boy)
One faithful harp will praise thee."         (Thomas Moore)
From: swatt%mickey@net.yale.edu (Alan Watt)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Stupid shooter tricks
Date: 19 Aug 92 18:42:18 GMT
Article-I.D.: news.1992Aug19.171124.26219
Organization: Yale University, Computing & Information Systems


In article <13400020@iftccu.boeing.com>, bressler@iftccu.ca.boeing.com (Rick Bressler) writes:
|> 
|> #Using said training, my friend attempted to aim the 1911A1 like an
|> #M-16, with his eye up to the rear sight.
|> #My scream of "CEASE FIRE" saved his face/eye.
|> 
|> This one ain't even close to funny.  A guy at one of the local ranges
|> did this.  First shot stunned him, nasty cut.  He staggered back and
|> touched off a second round into the floor.  The ricochet went through
|> a partition and got an off duty police officer at the next station in
|> the groin.  He was not pleased.....  Fortunately the bullet was pretty
|> well spent and his 'hydraulics' will probably resume normal function any
|> time now.
|> 
|> Rick.

This kind of scenario is why I get more than a little upset at stories
of handing novice shooters who've just fired their first magazine of
.22s a .44 magnum (or 12 ga. shotgun) and saying "here, try this" as
a joke.  First, the shooter can get hurt.  Second the (possibly) injured
and (certainly) stunned shooter has probably lost control of a loaded
firearm.  Finally, such stunts embarrass, anger, and perhaps permanently
alienate exactly that segment of the population we most need to win over.

However, back to stupid shooter tricks ...

One one occasion taking someone out to teach them to shoot with a .22
semi-auto.  Things were going fairly nicely until one of the hot empties
went right down the front of her shirt.  In the commotion which followed,
proper muzzle awareness was not maintained.

On another occasion teaching someone to shoot, a yellowjacket started
buzzing around her head.  With loaded gun, finger on trigger, she attempted
to use the gun as a swatter.  I hit the ground.  The shooter, myself, and
the yellowjacket all survived.

When you are teaching new shooters, be sure to tell them what to expect
before each new thing you have them do.  Emphasize proper grip and stance
and make sure they dry-fire it a few times first. When I have someone try a new
gun, I load just a single round.  That way, the worst that can happen
is they drop it empty.

My instructions regarding spent shell casings and stray wasps are "they
won't kill you; losing control of a firearm might".
-- 
  Alan S. Watt
  Yale University			Computing and Information Systems
  Box 2112 Yale Station			(203) 432-6602
  New Haven, CT  06520-2112		Watt-Alan@Yale.Edu
From: bercov@bevsun.bev.lbl.gov (John Bercovitz)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Dropping slide on empty chamber
Date: 18 Aug 92 21:37:04 GMT
Organization: Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory, California

In article <9208181451.AA17100@elroy.Jpl.Nasa.Gov> bobv@spike.Jpl.Nasa.Gov 
(Bob von Buelow) writes:

#It has been 20 years since I fired the .45 and I am getting conflicting info.
#A long gun shooter, I was shooting the national match course at the invitation
#of the pistol team.  As I remember it the sequence was like this: insert
#loaded magazine, depress trigger, cycle slide, release trigger, wait for
#firing instructions.  However, I visited at gun store this week looking at
#Colts, Tokarevs.  When I told the salesman/gunsmith about my rememberance, he
#just looked blank and said that that was not the case.  Do I remember wrong?

No, you remember correctly.  At least that's how those of us with match
triggers do things around our club.  I think most salespersons these days
are just hired off the street and have very little experience in their
"chosen" line of work.  Salespeople sell hamburgers one month and then the 
next month get a job selling shoes.  Never any time to learn about what 
they're selling.  They just specialize in selling if anything.  I'm not 
knocking gun shop salespeople in particular, they're actually better than
most.  Some are excellent.  But in general, if you want to know something, 
read a book or ask rec.guns.  This is all just personal opinion, of course.

John Bercovitz     (JHBercovitz@lbl.gov)
From: smpod@ariel.lerc.nasa.gov (Stefan)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Surplus rifle advice
Date: 12 Aug 92 13:32:10 GMT
Organization: who knows

cash@convex.com (Peter Cash) writes...
#Purpose:  Target shooting, learning more about reloading rifle cartridges.
#Cost:     Under $250.

#...I've heard that the 6.5 (or something) Swedish is
#supposed to be an extremely accurate, flat-shooting round. But how hard is
#it to get reloading components for this? 

Dies are sold by most of the die makers.  Bullets, including match bullets,
are sold by most bullet manufacturers.

#(I don't see lots of Swedish brass floating around. 

Brass is more of problem but not much.  You can buy factory ammo for $115
per hundred from Century International and use that brass.  This ammo is
Yugoslavian.  You can also buy accurate Brazilian ammo from Century
for $32/100.  Norma sells high quality brass for about $12/20 and if you
interested in large buys, Champion's Choice will sell Lapua brass for $330/1000.


#Does it use a common bullet?) 

You can use Sierra 120 and 140 Matchkings, Hornady 140 match; and for cheap
shooting, use Remington 120 and 140 soft points.

#If not the Swedish, what are
#desirable calibers/variants of the Mauser? 

Brazilian or Chilean 7mm.

#I know someone who is selling a Mauser 98K that has been re-chambered to
#..308 Winchester; is this a desirable rifle/caliber combination? What are
#they going for?

The Israeli and Norwegian conversions are between $150-200.
From: eesnyder@boulder.Colorado.EDU (Eric E. Snyder)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Stupid shooter tricks
Date: 17 Aug 92 14:44:00 GMT
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder

Well, this story isn't nearly as funny as some of the previous ones but
it is current (happen about 2.5 hr ago) and might be worth mentioning.  
Last night, I tried out my new 9 mm dies and loading about 100 Hornady 
115 gr XTP/HPs with what I thought was 5.2 grains of AA #2.  Well, I got a 
bit of a surprise.  I shot a couple of magazine worth our of my Browning
Hi-Power.  I thought I was loading pretty light so I didn't bother to look
at my brass for pressure signs.  

Surprize!  I touched off a round and I got
a face full of powder and my pistol jammed up nice and solid.  It turns out
I had a case failure which managed to vent downward into the magazine, causing
the grips to separate from the weapon (nice black powder burns on the hands,
thank you) and actually bending the forward facing part of the magazine about
2 mm to the rear.  I wasn't sure what to make of this.  Should I go home and
try to figure this out on paper or should I keep experimenting? 

After getting my pistol back together, I shot about 20 rounds more and the 
same thing happened.  Meanwhile, was checking the primers and something was
seriously wrong.  I was getting cases that looked a lot like figure C on 
page 56 of the latest Hornady reloading manual...  I had enough good sense
to stop at this point and figure out what was going on.  

So, two double charged loads seemed pretty unlikely.  I am pretty careful 
when I reload.  Seating depth might be a problem: nope, they were right on
at 1.05" COL.  Finally, I started taking apart cartridges and I found the 
problem:  I had loaded as much as 6.7 gr of AA #2 when I thought I was loading
5.2 gr.  Wow!  Big difference!

Well, the Hornady powder drop is not quite as consistent as I had thought. 
However, before I lay blame on the machinery, let me point out that I weighted
the first few charges and then ladled out another 50 charges with out 
rechcecking!  Bad idea!  While a grain or two here and there isn't catastrophic
when reloading .308, serious problems can result when reloading pistol 
cartridges with the same margin of error.  Good thing Hornady powder
drop error is not homoscedastic!


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
TTGATTGCTAAACACTGGGCGGCGAATCAGGGTTGGGATCTGAACAAAGACGGTCAGATTCAGTTCGTACTGCTG
Eric E. Snyder                            
Department of MCD Biology              ...making feet for childrens' shoes.
University of Colorado, Boulder   
Boulder, Colorado 80309-0347
LeuIleAlaLysHisTrpAlaAlaAsnGlnGlyTrpAspLeuAsnLysAspGlyGlnIleGlnPheValLeuLeu
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: etjue@lbl.gov (Eric T. Jue)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Prices????
Date: 18 Aug 92 21:37:18 GMT
Organization: LBL

In article <1992Aug18.145402.17598@CERIS.Purdue.EDU> Jim Heath,
jheath@fieldofdreams.npirs.purdue.edu writes:
#What are the going prices for Glocks and Firestars these days?

Here in Oakland, California you can get a brand new Glock for
$389 at a place called The Traders.  This is not their normal
price but a sale price that goes on every other month.  That
price is effective on all Glock models.  This is the standard
package with 2 newly designed magazines.

Eric T. Jue
From: gwyn@smoke.brl.mil (Doug Gwyn)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: .357 vs 9mm and Revolvers vs Semi-autos  (was: 1st gun= .22? )
Date: 21 Aug 92 23:10:14 GMT
Organization: U.S. Army Ballistic Research Laboratory, APG, MD.


In article <1992Aug21.110314.7968@nntp.hut.fi> r36110m@kaira.hut.fi (Mika Matti Jalava) writes:
#How big percentage of the recoil is generated while the bullet still
#travels in the barrel ... ?

For a typical handgun load, the bullet is moving through the barrel for
less than a millisecond.  During this time, most of the initial recoil
momentum is given to the rest of the gun.  The barrel lift during that
millisecond will be less than a tenth of an inch; that can however be
enough to significantly affect impact location on a target at moderate
distance.  Accurate shooting generally requires that grip, recoil, etc.
be the same for each shot, since they have significant effects.  Have a
good marksman shoot the same load with different kinds of grip, hold,
stance, etc. to show you how they affect the shot.  Varying recoil,
which is harder to achieve but could be done by shooting handloads with
different amounts of powder, should have a similar effect.

Of course bullet trajectory is not a straight line and therefore aim
point needs to be adjusted for target distance as well, although for
small distances (say, much less than 50 feet) it's not worth worrying
about.

I don't see a lot of variation between different brands of comparable
ammo in the same caliber, and there's not really any need to compare
the effect on aim between different guns so long as it is consistent
for each gun.  The main significant effect of recoil tends to be in
the time it takes to realign the sights for subsequent shots, not its
effect on the first shot.
From: erudnick@pica.army.mil (FSAC-SID)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Surplus rifle advice
Date: 13 Aug 92 17:39:23 GMT


Peter Cash writes:
#I'd like to get a rifle that's reasonably accurate--i.e., shoots better
#than I do. I want a caliber that is fun and forgiving to reload. (I've
[deleted]
#something that is at least akin to a military caliber (any military,
[deleted]
#Given my parameters (especially the low cost), I suspect that my only
#options are to be found among the military surplus rifles. I'm thinking a
#Mauser, since the .303 has never had much appeal to me. Does this make
#sense? Any other ideas?
[deleted]
#I know someone who is selling a Mauser 98K that has been re-chambered to
#.308 Winchester; is this a desirable rifle/caliber combination? What are
#they going for?


Consider the SKS. It meets your criteria of being hard-hitting but not
abusive, and reloading components get more and more available. Collecting
brass may be a problem, as it tends to scatter the empties. Navy Arms
will (hopefully :) ) soon have a bolt action in 7.62x39mm.

Mausers are ALWAYS ( :) ) a good choice. There are good 7.9mm (8mm)
variants in abundance on the market today, but these may be a better
choice if you shoot surplus rather than reload. One of the 7mm Mausers
would be an excellent choice - a very versatile cartridge, lots of
bullet choices, and good but not excessive performance.

The Mauser in .308 is a good choice if it's a 98 action and not one of
the Spanish conversions. The latter are supposedly unsuitable for high
pressure loads.

Mausers in 6.5mm are a decent choice if you can get brass; 6.5mm/.257
bullets are readily available. The 7.65mm Mausers - same, except .30
bullets.


Ed Rudnicki     erudnick@pica.army.mil     All disclaimers apply
Protect the Second Amendment - boycott Ruger products
"That's not true," Bill hissed to his lawyer. "The facts are-"
"Don't worry about facts, Bill, no one else here does. Facts can't
alter this case."       -"Bill the Galactic Hero" Harry Harrison
From: meyers@leonardo.rtp.dg.com (Bill Meyers)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Trap, Skeet, Sporting Clays ?
Date: 15 Aug 92 02:47:37 GMT
Organization: N/I

In article <9208122214.AA16235@hpfiseh.fc.hp.com> scot@hpfiseh.fc.hp.com (Scot E. Heath) writes:
[description of (among others) American skeet ...]
#Equipment is limited to shotguns no larger than 12 gauge and shells of a
#maximum of 1-1/8 oz of shot and 3 dram equiv. powder for the 12 gauge

So hr2922's proposed $.75/lb lead tax is $1.32 per 25-shot round of skeet.
($.66 if your shot is made from recycled lead.  :-)

For another perspective on the risks of lead in the environment, I suggest:

        "Memo for Media:  Get the Lead Out"
        AIM Report March-B 1992 ($1.50)
        Accuracy in Media, Inc.
        1275 K Street N.W., Suite 1150
        Washington, DC 20005  (202/371-6710)
        [They run a BBS too, but I don't have the phone number handy.]
From: forda@gtephx.UUCP (Andrew Ford @ AGCS, Phoenix, Arizona)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Underwater shooting???
Date: 19 Aug 92 23:44:11 GMT
Organization: gte

In article <1992Aug12.074241.2406@nntp.hut.fi>, r36110m@kaira.hut.fi (Mika Matti Jalava) writes:
# In article <168t8iINNboi@agate.berkeley.edu> fcrary%ocf.Berkeley.EDU@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (Frank Crary) writes:
# #No, it works fine: I know someone who took a bucket of water out to a 
# #range, stuck his pistol under the water and fired it through the
# #bucket (just to see if it would work...). 
# 
# Well, I don't know about revolvers (one was used in the movie), but
# something else might not like this. For example a shotgun or a rifle
# may explode if there is even a few grams of something obstructing the
# barrel, not to talk about a barrel full of water! Think about how much
# the water will weigh and how much more pressure it will cause to shoot
# it out than just air.
# 
Remember also that (a) water is not lodged in the barrel, just sitting 
there (it will move easily) and (b) the pressure outside the gun will be 
increased by the water.  

Somebody once posted a very informative article on shooting under
water (right now I'm wishing that I had saved it 8( ).  As I remember,
guns in general will fire under water, but the effective range is
two or three feet -- and even then they aren't very effective.



-- 
"25 States allow anyone to buy a gun, strap it on, and walk down the street with
no permit of any kind: some say it's crazy.  However, 4 out of 5 US murders are 
committed in the other half of the country: so who is crazy?"   -  Andrew Ford
gtephx!forda@enuucp.eas.asu.edu  OR  !uunet!samsung!romed!enuucp!gtephx!forda
From: vapspgd@prism.gatech.edu (Edward Hefter)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Stupid shooter tricks
Date: 14 Aug 92 19:11:33 GMT
Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology


While I've never caught anything on the slide of my Browning 9mm, I have the
toughest time convincing friends to keep their hands below the curve (the one
that should fit nicely *above* your hand on the back of the grip).  I finally
convinced them with this little thought exercise.

1)  You know how hard it is to pull back the slide.
2)  You know that the slide has to move back to cycle another round.
3)  You know that every time you yank the trigger (new shooters :-)  ),
    another round is waiting for you (except for that 14th shot...).
4)  Judging by this, the slide must be cycling automatically, hence the name.
5)  Do *you* see it cycle?  Think about how fast that must be moving.....


They immediately improve their grip!
-- 
                                Edward Hefter
                   Trying To Survive the Ga Tech Experience
                         vapspgd@prism.gatech.edu
From: acw@sbmsg1.UUCP (Alvin White)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Beginner's question about caliber
Date: 19 Aug 92 15:13:41 GMT
Article-I.D.: gatech.9208191330.AA00100
Organization: Southern Bell - MSG  Atlanta, Ga

In article <16d0e1INN1ie@agate.berkeley.edu> fcrary%ocf.Berkeley.EDU@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (Frank Crary) writes:
#In a revolver, a single action is a disadvantage: Since the trigger does
#not cock the hammer, it must be cocked by hand between each shot. There 
#aren't many modern single action revolvers...

This was an excellent reply (most of which I deleted to save space)
until I got to these sentences.  Single action in a revolver is not 
always a disadvantage.  Perhaps in a self defense situation it would 
not be the best choice.  A lot of hunters use single action revolvers.

There are plenty of modern single action revolvers.  A quick look
thru the Ruger catalog will show a few.

Alvin White
From: death@pembvax1.pembroke.edu
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Glock 10mm barrel
Date: 19 Aug 92 00:32:32 GMT
Organization: Pembroke State University

could anyone tell me where i could buy a 6 inch or longer barrel for a  Glock
mod 20?  I'd like to take it deer hunting, but the barrel is too short to be
legal.