HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: gjm11@cus.cam.ac.uk (G.J. McCaughan)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re:      Re: The unelectable elect.
Date: 15 Sep 92 05:36:33 GMT
Organization: U of Cambridge, England

In article <CHRISTIA%92091408044916@ASUACAD.BITNET> Tom Brewer <NOTTMB@LSUVM.BITNET> writes:
> Gareth:
>
> Quick question: When did I say the Father is "forcing" men into conversion?
>
> Also, please note, in trying to keep with a request from earlier this summer,
> I am trying to avoid discussions concerning the "P" word. The request was
> made to the entire list that we refrain from discussing the "P" word. So if
> my answers are short or none at all, I hope you will understand.

You didn't refer to "forcing"; that word was used by someone else with whom
you appeared to be disputing, whose claim had been that God did not force
people into conversion. If it was not his position with which you were
arguing, then I have misunderstood you; but you should have said so. You
did say, though, that no man can come to the Father EXCEPT/UNLESS/UNTIL
the Father first "draws" him to him. (I may be misremembering your words
slightly.) -- Which gives the impression that you mean that first God
"draws" someone, and then they (presumably) *must* believe. I call that
forcing.
Anyway, this is getting horribly close to a discussion of pred*stination,
so perhaps we'd better stop now...
-- 
Gareth McCaughan     Dept. of Pure Mathematics & Mathematical Statistics,
gjm11@cus.cam.ac.uk  Cambridge University, England.    [Research student]
From: FACN34B@SAUPM00.BITNET (zane)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: iconographics
Date: 15 Sep 92 17:01:53 GMT
Organization: King Fahd University of Petroleum and Minerals, S.A.
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X-Acknowledge-To: <FACN34B@SAUPM00.BITNET>

This probably has very little to do with the practical Christian life, but I
have a question about those paintings.

What is the significance of the two fingers of the right hand raised?  Some-
times it looks like the "cub-scout" salute, while at other times, the little
finger is also extended.

If anyone knows, please share with me the significance of these handsigns.
Also, what are they called within the Christian tradition?  TIA,

                                                 peace, zane.
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Date:         Sat, 5 Sep 1992 10:26:21 EDT
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From:         Brenda Curry-White <BSCURR01@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU>
Subject:      Sarah's prayer request update

I'm still nomail, but feeling much more like myself.  Thank you all for your
prayers and notes of encouragement.

We took Sarah to the ophthamologist Thursday.  The bad news was that she does
have cataracts in each eye.  However, the doctor was surprised that we had
even been able to see them because they are so tiny (miniscule, she called
them).  They are a hereditary type of cataract called anterior polar cataracts.
They are not expected to increase much (if any) in size.  Because of their
small size and position on the lens, the doctor does not feel they will affect
Sarah's vision at all.  Thus, there is no need to remove them.  We will have
to watch them to make sure they do not affect her vision as she begins to learn
to focus and look around (our next appointment will be in two months), and to
make sure that she does not begin to favor one eye and thus develop a lazy eye.

I am so grateful to all of you for the prayers and encouragement you offered.
When I first found out that Sarah might have cataracts I was beside myself.
We want our children to be perfect, to never experience pain or trauma.  It
gave both David and I such peace to know that Sarah was in the prayers of
fellow Christians around the globe.  I know now why I continue to be a member
of Christia.  Although we may differ (even occasionally argue) over the finer
points of our beliefs, it is the support we offer to each other in times of
crisis that binds us together.  We may sometimes appear to be a segmented,
disparate band, but there is unity in spite of our differences.  Special thanks
to Steven and Madge for making this unity possible.

Sincere thanks,

Brenda
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Date:         Mon, 7 Sep 1992 11:56:00 GMT
From:         Z_STAFF_CL@SOUTHAMPTON-INSTITUTE.AC.UK
Subject:      Re : Spong

From:     Lon Mendelsohn <LMENDELS@EDU.WAYNE.CC.CMS>
Subject:  Bishop Spong

>... the Book of Common Prayer.  One of the services described therein is the
>Form of Ordaining or Consecrating a Bishop.  In this service, the candidate
>is called upon to "promise conformity and obedience to the Doctrine,
>Discipline, and Worship of the Protestant Episcopal Church."  I would assume
>that this means (among other things) conformity to the Articles of Religion,
>also listed in the Book of Common Prayer.

I think Bishop Spong's book will fall into the "individual belief" category.
He publishes as an individual looking at a subject not as a bishop making
a statement on behalf of the church.

An Anglican can affirm the Church's Doctrine whilst being allowed the
space to personally disagree.

For example, the Creed is said every Sunday, including the bit about the
bodily resurrection of all believers.  I can't actually get my brain round
that one and if pushed will say I _probably_ don't believe it.  Every time
I say the Creed, I affirm the church's doctrine and hand God my doubts/lack
of understanding/whatever.  I expect Spong and nearly every other Anglican
will no the same for some part of the doctrine.  It is by this that the
Anglican church manages to house such a diverse collection of Christians
without to many small christian groups setting up as break aways.

>... I cannot see how he could be seen to be
>teaching in faithfulness to the promises that the Prayer Book says he made
>at his consecration.

His book is bringing the obtained knowledge and experience of a christian
into a wider debate.  Thus his work is enriching the tradition and enabling
others to think about their faith.  Faithfulness in spirit if not in exact
words.


>  Perhaps some of the Anglicans/Episcopalians ... could clarify this issue
>for a poor, confused, Messianic Jewish non-denominational type such as myself.

Lon,
I hope this has helped rather than hindered.
Shalom,

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East Park Terrace,
Southampton	SO9 4WW,   England		RELEASE - Repost at will, with
	UK Fax No : (0703) 222259		acknowlegements to author.
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Fri, 4 Sep 1992 20:57:47 CDT
From:         THERESA BLACKWELL <TBLACKWL@USMCP6.BITNET>
Subject:      PRAYER REQUEST!!!

 OK, EVERYONE...
 I know this will sound absolutely irrelevant to most of you, but
 for those of you who've marched in a University Band, you know
 what Saturdays are like, right???
 Get this....
 We (University of Southern Mississippi) battle Memphis State
 tomorrow....
 I'm not worried about the outcome of the football game...
 I'M WORRIED ABOUT OUR HALFTIME SHOW!!!
 Ask anybody from the Gulf Coast, to Texas, to Tennessee and back,
 and they will tell ya that the "Pride of Mississippi" marching
 band is one of the BEST in the nation.
 There's a tradition of excellence here that the Band helped
 build.  As an upperclassman/woman, I feel aweful knowing that
 there are 7 FRESHMEN in our piccolo line this term.
 There's to be an expected crowd of 20,000+ at kickoff.
 THESE PEOPLE AREN'T COMING FOR THE GAME... THEY WILL COME
 JUST TO SEE IF "THE PRIDE" IS up to SNUFF...
 Our formations at the current time, are NOT WHAT our
 marching director charted, because half the underclassmen
 think they are right ... Ya see, it's like this:
 If you're in a formation, and someone steps off on the wrong
 count in the drill/music, you gotta do what you can to make
 that person LOOK LIKE THEY'RE RIGHT.
 There's a Freshman picc player leading a specific move that
 we all call a "float"... we're in an ARC....
 This will prove disaster for the Pride, should some freshman
 freeze up tomorrow in front of that many spectators...
 I've had it with these new folks, who aren't into the drill
 by now...
 Help!!!
 Please Pray that our HALFTIME show goes EXCELLENT tomorrow.
 There's a lot riding on this.... including the rep that the
 Pride has given to the MUSIC SCHOOL here at Southern Miss.
 *I'm a MUSIC INDUSTRY MAJOR*...
 It's gonna really be a bummer if this show don't go well.
 All I can do is MY PART...
 and hope these newcomers REMEMBER THEIRS!
 I'm making mistakes that I've NEVER MADE before in
 Marching band... and it's because a freshman picc player
 can't remember how EASY an eight-to-five roll step is to do.
 Said enough...
 "G"

 * <TBLACKWL@USMCP6.BITNET>
From: gjm11@cus.cam.ac.uk (G.J. McCaughan)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re:      Re>Absolution
Date: 15 Sep 92 05:02:32 GMT
Organization: U of Cambridge, England

In article <BuLB7v.ILu@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Steve Creps) writes:
> In article <1992Sep10.235810.905@infodev.cam.ac.uk> gjm11@cus.cam.ac.uk (G.J. McCaughan) writes:
> >But suppose someone considers that there is *no* church on earth which
> >is "the true Church"; no church on earth that has no false dogmas.
> >Suppose that person decides that the church whose teachings are "best"
> >is the RCC; should they be a Roman Catholic, or are they obliged to leave
> >the RCC because they do not consider it the one true church in your sense?
>
>    Such a person cannot be be a Catholic, because one of the basic
> Catholic dogmas is that there _is_ such a Church, the Catholic Church.

That's a bit hard on him, if he believes that he needs to confess his
sins to a priest, and that he needs to go regularly to Mass. Suppose
he believes these things, but considers that the Church made a mistake
in (say) asserting the Immaculate Conception of Mary. What should he
do? It sounds from what you say as if such a person is necessarily
damned (unless he changes his mind) because the Church will not
administer those sacraments to him.
-- 
Gareth McCaughan     Dept. of Pure Mathematics & Mathematical Statistics,
gjm11@cus.cam.ac.uk  Cambridge University, England.    [Research student]
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Date:         Mon, 14 Sep 1992 08:55:53 EDT
From:         Bernice Tennant <U1A9A@WVNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: OK, YOU GUYS ASKED FOR THIS....

On 09/12/92 at 19:09:37 Nabil Ayoub said:
>In article <920911.19324048.070703@USM.CP6> THERESA BLACKWELL
>> 1. JESUS WAS GOD'S SON.
>> 2. BORN OF A VIRGIN
>> 3. LED A SINLESS LIFE HERE ON EARTH
>> 4. DIED TO SAVE ALL MANKIND FROM SIN/DEATH/HELL
>> 5. ROSE ON THE THIRD DAY (ACTUALLY SUNDAY NOW...)
>> 6. SENT US THE HOLY SPIRIT AS COMFORTOR/COUNCELLOR
>> 7. HE'S COMING BACK HERE TO RAPTURE HIS CHURCH AND
>>    TAKE US TO HEAVEN WITH HIM... AND THERE WE WILL
>>    STAY *FOREVER* ... IF we have a one-on-one with him.
>>

>I just want to pose a simple question, how did you come to the conclusion
>that these are "the CARDINAL DOCTRINES OF THE *CHRISTIAN* FAITH" ? Did
>you get 318 Fathers of Church (ooops I forgot that some people do not like
>this term!) or 318 knowledgable qualified persons to come to this conclusion.
>Please do not re-invent the wheel! The CARDINAL DOCTRINES OF *CHRISTIAN*
>FAITH have been laid down centuries ago, by 318 knowledgable persons (who
>happen to be Church Fathers by the way!) led by the Holy Spirit in Nicea
>and the 150 in Constantinople too, and you can find them in The Creed (I'm
>referring to the Nicea-Constantinople Creed). For me this Creed is as
>important as the Bible exactly because both are inspired by the Holy Spirit.
I don't think Theresa was trying to say that church history was not
important to us.  She was claiming, in my opinion, that it is Jesus that
saves us (only) and our faith in that God sent him in the flesh.
We don't have to know church history.  We do have to know Jesus.  He is
our saving grace whether we know church history or not. Now it is nice
to know church history.  And we will continue to disagree on it.  But
isn't it nice to know that if we have Christ's spirit living in us we can
be saved?  We only have to know Jesus.  First and last.  He is the only
way.
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Date:         Wed, 9 Sep 1992 08:28:28 CDT
From:         Yvette Traylor <YST1@DCCCDBIT.BITNET>
Subject:      Chiropractor's

Dear Christia,
Has anyone out there ever been to a chiropractor? And if so, what
was your experience dealing with them, if you don't mind telling
me your business...


   Yvette Traylor     "We are His people and the sheep of his pasture."
   Dallas County Community College District             Psalm 100:3
   Computer Programmer/Analyst  in  Dallas - Texas
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Date:         Mon, 14 Sep 1992 22:31:09 PDT
From:         Barry Wadsworth <BARRYW@UCSFVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Absolution, Tradition, and Christianity
              13 Sep 1992 14:55:25 EDT from <timk@WORLD.STD.COM>

Tim,
Lighten up.
I am a Catholic and haven't been to confession in almost two years. I
do beleive that it is important but there has to be a lot of internal
adjustment made before one can go into the confessional. I am still
processing, still internally adjusting. But, when I do go to confession,
I do indeed feel resolved of my sins. Whether or not I am, only God
really knows.
But, don't throw the baby out with the bath water. The Catholic faith
is beautiful and God-inspired faith. It would be useless for someone
who has not experienced that and is unwilling to try to deny that to
someone who has, who does experience it daily.
Don't make things so complex and you will see the beauty that Christ
has provided for us, even within the Catholic church!
 BarryW
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Date:         Tue, 8 Sep 1992 12:16:45 CDT
From:         Yvette Traylor <YST1@DCCCDBIT.BITNET>
Subject:      Montel Williams Show

> Item Retrieval Assistant, DADS
> Phone: 588-6757
>
> > I can find other ways of makin' money to support myself.
> > Geez.....
>
> Yeah, so can I, but selling drugs is an easy, fast way to make money.  It's
> rather enticing to people who are looking for the easy way to fast cash.

I have never sold drugs, but I don't think it is as easy as you make it
sound. Is it really easy to buy drugs from someone and not know if they
are going to kill you or think that you are a narc. Or is it easy to
sell those drugs to someone and they don't get the right kind of high &
they come gunning for you. Is it easy money when you get caught and
have a prison record or shot in the back tring to escape and so on?

>
> > You're right... the kid in the audience had GUTS to
> > ask that question!
>
>
> I don't think it took guts at all to ask if the drug seller had any morals.
> I think all it took was a heavy dose of self-righteousness, something that
> we all suffer from, some more than others.

Self-righteousness is right, I think you took a bigger dose than the
kid. God bless her and every other young person who cares enough to
question people who are hurting and killing our Children.
From A Mother of Four,


   Yvette Traylor     "We are His people and the sheep of his pasture."
   Dallas County Community College District             Psalm 100:3
   Computer Programmer/Analyst  in  Dallas - Texas
From: spk@uk.ac.aber (Stephen Kingston)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: Blest is the nation ...
Date: 7 Sep 92 15:30:18 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Dept., University of Wales at Aberystwyth.

Dan Graham wrote:
> so an elected Christian should be an oxymoron.

Sorry Dan, I could not resist! Does this mean you no longer believe 
Christians are the elect?

All the best,
  Stephen.
-- 
Gweleis i rac neb nym gweles pop annwyl. ef diwyl yneges. Gweleis i pasc.
(I saw the one above all men,  he saw me;  he, the beloved of his people,
who fulfills his mission. I saw Easter.) "Yspeil Taliesin" ---Taliesin---
spk@uk.ac.aber --- spk%uk.ac.aber@nsfnet-relay.ac.uk --- Stephen Kingston
X-Orig-To: CHRISTIA@ASUACAD.BITNET
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Date:         Sat, 12 Sep 1992 13:40:46 CDT
Comments:     Answering received message
From:         THERESA BLACKWELL <TBLACKWL@USMCP6.BITNET>
Subject:      DARREN!!!

 I agree whole heartedly that the "flame-throwin'" promotes
 no goodwill...
 I wish some of these people would just go back to the basics, and
 get back to what Madge and Stephen created this list for:
 Praise/Glorifyin'/Prayer/Encouragement to other folks here.
 "G"

 * <TBLACKWL@USMCP6.BITNET>
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Date:         Tue, 15 Sep 1992 09:02:19 -0700
From:         "Steven E. Hoell" <seh@NEUTRON.PHYSICS.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Gays under fire

Did anyone catch the "60 Minutes" segment on gay cops? One of
them claimed to belong to "Cops for Christ" or something like that.
He said that he asked God to deliver him from his homosexuality,
but nothing happened.

What do you think?

Steve Hoell		seh@neutron.physics.arizona.edu
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Date:         Fri, 4 Sep 1992 17:01:33 EDT
From:         Leo W <Leo_W@QM.CIRCA.UFL.EDU>
Subject:      Re>Matthew 24 -- when? pt. 1

James wrote: "(e) In Joel 3:30f, we find similar language, in a prophecy that
we are told (Acts 2:16) was fulfilled in the year of the Passion."

St. Peter said, "Joel the prophet wrote about what is happening here today."
That was on the day of Pentecost during the outpouring of the spirit, so it is
correct to state that part of Joel's prophecy was fulfilled on that day,
according to Acts 2:16.

James wrote: "it is a reasonable option to treat a Biblical reference to a
coming darkness of sun and moon as usually a metaphor of cataclysm, and to say
that M 24:29 may refer to the sack of Jerusalem in 70 AD."

It is also a reasonable option to say that M 24:29 might be a double reference
(70 AD and a yet future fulfillment) as were other fulfilled OT prophecies.
One that comes to mind is Isaiah 7:14 which had both a local prophetic meaning
and another very distant fulfillment.  The local, immediate fulfillment would
have been a foreshadowing of the much later event, a "taste" of things to come.

"... they received the powers of his new world" (Hebrews 6:5).

Yours in Christ Jesus,
Leo
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
From: creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Steve Creps)
Subject: Re:      Re: Church and Rome
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 17:48:16 GMT

In article <CHRISTIA%92091000011736@ASUACAD.BITNET> Kerry Stephenson <KSTE@PURCCVM.BITNET> writes:
>This talk of Gallicans made me wonder.  Are there any remnants of
>followers of the French Church left?  Is there a French Pope in
>exile, waiting to reassert power?(as is often the case of those
>who lose a fight--they don't always just dissolve into nothingness.)

   As far as I know, there are no more Gallicans (I don't know of any
neo-Gallicans either).  Gallicanism was "stamped out," along with
Febronianism (the German version of it), at the First Vatican Council
in 1869.  Since an ecumenical council is made up of all the bishops,
and considered to be infallible (even in the eyes of the Gallicans),
no one today can go back on its decision in order to claim
independence from the Bishop of Rome.  That is what Louis XIV ("The
Sun King") tried to do in order to subvert the Church in the 1600s. If
a previous ecumenical council had condemned Gallicanism, he likely
would not even have tried to get away with it.

   By the way, Kerry, there never was a Gallican anti-pope.  Rather,
it was claimed that all the French bishops were independent of Rome;
however, these same bishops were (at least attemptedly) controlled by
the King of France.

-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
Steve Creps, Indiana University
creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu
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Date:         Tue, 8 Sep 1992 13:27:41 EDT
From:         ? <ISAIAS@TEMPLEVM.BITNET>
Subject:      The end...!?

            WHAT TAKES PLACE WHEN THE UNCONVERTED DIE


     When one man who did not know the Gospel died, his soul, after
being liberated from the body, wandered about unhindered from place
to place on earth, until one of the devil's angels, descending from
the sky with chains, bound him and forced him down to hell.  The
death of a professing Christian who had known the Lord, but had not
truly repented, was still more terrible.  When this man was dying,
demons by his deathbed waited in fiendish delight for the
liberation of the soul of this hypocritical, one-time professing
Christian.  The demons began to bind him before he was entirely out
of the body and completed the binding of their captive the minute
he drew his last ungodly breath.  The hypocrite did not enjoy one
moment of freedom to wander about the earth.  An object of ridicule
to his demon captors, in terror he was at once dragged and pushed
into hell.
     One such ungodly man was the special sport of demons who,
having bound him in chains, dragged him along on the earth, again
and again jerking him up on his feet only again to drag him down
and haul him along like a dead dog.  After furnishing amusement for
his captor the man was dragged down the dark road to the infernal
regions.


From "VISIONS BEYOND THE VEIL" by H. A. Baker, Copyright 1940"
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Date:         Thu, 10 Sep 1992 03:20:27 EDT
From:         JEK@NIHCU.BITNET
Subject:      Anabaptists

Yvette Taytlor asks:

 > What do Antibaptists believe in ... ?

The term is "Anabaptists" and it is Greek meaning, "re-baptizers,
persons who baptize the already baptized."

The view of most Christians for many canturies has been that (1) it
is proper to baptize a young child whose parents intend to bring it
up in the Christian faith, and (2) baptism can properly be
administered by pouring water on the person to be baptized.

However, some Christians have held otherwise, believing that (1)
baptism does not count unless the person baptized is already a
believer in Jesus and has undertaken to follow Him as Lord, God, and
Savior, and that (2) baptism does not count unless the person being
baptized is totally immersed in water.

Christians who have come to believe this, if they were brought up
among Christians believing otherwise, have usually been baptized
already, in a way that they do not believe counts as a fulfilment of
the Lord's command, and accordingly undertake to get baptized
properly. Their neighbors say that they are getting re-baptized, and
call them Anabaptists. They themselves say that they are getting
really and truly baptized for the first time, and call themselves
Baptists. Therefore, the term "Anabaptist" is simply another name
for the people who are usually called Baptists, and occurs mainly in
historical references to the rise of their movement in the sixteenth
century, at about the time of Luther and Calvin.  (They will point
out that their beliefs had been held by some earlier persons, but
they became widespread and organized in the sixteenth century.)

 Yours,
 James Kiefer
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