From: kellmeye@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (kellmeyer steven l)
Subject: Re: Lifestyle Choices and Secular Reasoning
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 14:00:48 GMT

harp@netcom.com (Gregory O. Harp) writes:

>kellmeye@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (kellmeyer steven l) writes:

>>To be specific, the "country founded upon a belief in God" is the 
>>United States of America.

><bzzt> Sorry, but thanks for playing. [see below]

>>"...the country founded upon atheism and a belief in man" is, ahem, was
>>the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

>This is also historically incorrect.  The "-ism" WRT the USSR is
>attributable to Karl Marx.

Greg, read your history.  the USSR was founded on Marxism-Leninism,
which no one would ever say bore a great deal of resemblance to
Marxism per se.  Even those who wish to make that argument will have 
to make clear which Marx they want to talk about - the philosophy
espoused before 1848 or after 1848?  Neither of which really resembled
what Lenin claimed Marx said.  My original statement stands.

>>Indeed.  I've read Tom and Ben and George, et. al. 

>Apparently you've not paid enough attention.  Read Andrew Jackson
>while you're at it.  

I wasn't aware Andy was a founding father.  I'll bet his mother's surprised.

>>My statement stands.
>>I've looked at the Bill of Rights.  If Tom, George, Ben, or anyone else
>>had wanted to remove the religious foundations from the country, they
>>had only to delete the amendment concerning "respect to religion".

>The First Amendment's guarantee of freedom of religion doesn't imply
>in the least a Christian foundation for our country.  In fact, it
>specifically denies the possibility of the country having a single
>religious influence.

Pardon me, but did I say "Christian foundation"?  I did not.  I said
"belief in God".  That is correct.  My original statement stands.

>>Furthermore, it seems that these boys believed man was "endowed with
>>certain inalienable rights".  Now they tended to be somewhat better
>>schooled in English than you, and undoubtedly understood that one 
>>cannot be "endowed" unless Someone is doing the endowing.  

>That's a stretch of logic to its extremes.  You're giving Thomas
>Jefferson more credit than he deserves.  His own religious beliefs
>were in no way representative of the rest.  Andrew Jackson, Benjamin
>Franklin, and George Washington are on record as being atheists.

Andy was a little out of it to be a founding father.  The statements
about Ben and George are egregiously wrong.  There's simply no other
way to put it.

>>Finally,
>>the numerous references to a Supreme Being that can be found in the public
>>and private papers of all of these gentlemen makes it quite clear that
>>this belief was the foundation of their conception of this country.

>Back it up or take it back.  I think you'll find very little religious
>influence in the lives of most of those who wrote the Constitution.
>-- 
>-----------------Greg-Harp----------------harp@netcom.com------------------
>  "I think I've reached that point / Where every word that you write /
>  Of every blood dark sea / And every soul black night / And every dream
>  you dream me in / And every perfect free from sin / And burning eyes /
>  And hearts on fire / Are just the same old song" -- The Cure

Steve Kellmeyer
-- 

Steve Kellmeyer 
kellmeye@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu
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