From: andy@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Some call me...Drew)
Newsgroups: talk.abortion
Subject: Re: More questions for Suzanne or other pro-life parent
Date: 22 Aug 92 15:36:58 GMT
Organization: Leapers For a Better Yesterday

forgach@noao.edu (Suzanne Forgach) writes:
>gordons@netcom.com (Gordon Storga):
>>forgach@noao.edu (Suzanne Forgach) writes:
>>>gordons@coopsol.com (Gordon Storga):
>
>[discussing a hypothetical situation that an minor daughter of Suzanne's 
> had an abortion]

With luck, this will remain a hypothetical situation.  With education, it
almost certainly will.

>>>> Do you try to see her side of it?  Do you ask her to explain?
>>>
>>>Yet BET I do!
>> 
>> Confusion: You see her side of it?  OR  Do you ask her to explain?  
>
>I "try to see her side of it" by "asking her to explain".  How many
>"yesses" do you want?

That will be sufficient, for now. :-)

>> Your
>> single answer wasn't clear as to which question you were answering.
>> I'd be interested in hearing how you could see her side of it.
>
>By asking her her reasons.  Just about every truly pro-life mother
>*I* know has taken her teenage daughter asside at some time and said,
>"I don't expect you'll ever get pregnant, but if it were ever to 
>happen, you know that I would help you raise the baby until you were 
>established enough to take care of him/her yourself."   And you know
>what?  Daughters from trusting loving homes like that RARELY ever do
>get pregnant!

Probably because they're terrified of being forced to bring an unwanted
baby to term.  That's not a loving home, that's a totalitarian state.
Let's check this further, shall we?

]"I don't expect you'll ever get pregnant,

Damn!  There go the grandkids! :-)

]but if it were ever to happen,

This at least admits the possibility, which is more than I've seen
Suzanne do.

]you know that I would help you raise the baby until you were established
]enough to take care of [it] yourself."

In other words, you're keeping this baby, by God, and because I'm such a
wonderful mother, I'm going to keep it from completely wrecking your life
until you're established [read: married] and can take care of it yourself.

No mention of adoption, no mention of support for the daughter's decision
if it happens to not coincide with the mother's--yeah, that's love in all
its glory.  Pardon me for not saluting.

>>>> If you can manage it, stay in the
>>>> hypothetical, but try to personalize it in a 'real world' sense.
>>>
>>>The real world is what you make it, Gordon.
>> 
>> Oh, my world is as real as they come.  Yours appears to be fairly
>> fantastical.
>
>No Gordon.   Your world of doom, gloom, and perpetual pessimism is
>NOT real at all.   The world IS what you make it.   

Usurping the role of the Creator?  Isn't that blasphemy or worse?

More to the point, there are 5-and-change billion people in this world.
None of them will help me make the world precisely what I want, because
none of them have precisely the same vision I do.  There are also forces
that nobody has *any* control over.

To say that this world is what I make it is patently ludicrous.

>You make yours
>a cesspool by expecting your kids to sleep around exposing themselves
>to all sorts of horrible diseases, not to mention parenthood before
>their time.  

I would expect my children to make responsible decisions about what they
are ready for.  I would also expect my children to feel free to talk to
me without getting a hellfire-and-brimstone lecture on the Evils of Latex.
I don't condone "sleeping around", and I don't condone unprotected sex.

Gordon has already stated he's vasectomised, so I think that if he expects
anything for his children at all, he probably should seek professional help.
(Loads o' smileys, Gordon.)

>I make ours (my daughter's and mine) a world of decency
>and love, where she knows from early on how to reciprocate.  

In other words, you're living with the Care Bears.  The world is an
uncaring place, and you'd better learn to live with it if you don't
want to be burned.

>She
>will want for her children nothing less than what she has grown up
>with herself.   

I'd hope she'd want more, to be honest.

>And you know what Gordon?  Kids have a way of living
>up to EXACTLY what you EXPECT of them.   

Kids also have a way of rebelling against too-tight parental constraints.
Not that your sweet darling would EVER do that.

>You expect your kids to
>be animals of the street, 

[Uncontrollable mental image; "Gordon Storga Jr., you stop chasing cars
right this instant!!" Sorry, please continue.]

>who will be unable to control themselves
>in getting pregnant, 

Huh?  Please elucidate this...I'm not entirely sure what this line means.

>and then will become physically violent when
>you try to help them.  

I don't think I have a clue where this came from.  Gordon, when WAS the
last time you decked someone who tried to help you, anyway?

>And your kids would grow up exactly like that,
>Gordon.   

So sayeth Suzanne...so say us all.

>My kids will grow up decent, loving, and in full control
>of their futures.   Because those are the worlds we're creating
>for them as they are growing up.

Let me introduce you to the fascinating world of peripheral vision, Suzanne.
First, you have to take off those blinders...

>Yes Gordon, I know you've had a vasectomy.  You've posted it to
>the world before.  And for the sake of the kids you didn't have,
>I'm glad.

So is he, I'm sure.

>> All in all, you answered pretty much the way I thought you might: You
>> denied that any of these things was a remote possibility for your
>> daughter.  
>
>I denied that I can have no influence whatsoever on my daughter.
>The fact is that you have complete influence AND control while your
>children are still young, and as she is still very young, it is not
>too late for my kid, so she will be taught how to control herself.

In other words, since she can't fight back, you're going to force her to
accept your world-view.  Wouldn't it be better to allow her to develop her
OWN slant on the world, to perhaps make her own contribution instead of
being a Suzanne Forgach clone?

>You apparently would be too lazy to teach your kids the self-control
>they'd need in this world, and so you throw up your hands and say
>"it cain't be done".  Of course it can be done.  You just can't be
>bothered, Gordon.

Or else he's more concerned with educating them, not walling them in.

>> You'd claim she murdered her child, but wouldn't report her for
>> murder.  You'd (apparently) physically drag her to counseling whether
>> she needed it or not, whether she wanted it or not.
>
>Correction:  YOUR kid would need to be dragged.   My kid is will not be
>the street animal your kid would be, because I'm seeing to it that she's
>not.  She is, and always will be, a human being.

So what are you going to do if she has problems?  Believe it or not, there
are people who are going to have troubles no matter what, and claiming that
because you're such a wonderful mother it ain't gonna happen is doubleplus-
unclueful.

>I have never advocated treating women like criminals.

No, just slaves.

-- 
"Me and you, a two man crew, 
 side by side we are united,
 we will never be divided...."

                                                  Au revoir, mon cherie.
Newsgroups: talk.abortion