HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: fau@po.CWRU.Edu (Francis A. Uy)
Newsgroups: news.groups,rec.music.synth
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Date: 6 Nov 1992 18:43:23 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: fau@po.CWRU.Edu (Francis A. Uy)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, shirriff@sprite.berkeley.edu (Ken Shirriff) says:

>Well, I for one am a r.m.synth poster who was not aware of the vote until I
>saw the current discussion.  I went back and checked and there were indeed
>calls for votes in rec.music.synth with the subject: "3rd CFV and VOTE ACK:
>rec.music.makers.* groups".  Since I don't read rec.music.makers or care what
>happens there, I skipped over that posting and didn't learn about the vote.
>Perhaps the CFV subject line should make it clear to whom the CFV is relevant?

If it wasn't relevant to r.m.synth, they 
 wouldn't have posted the CFV there.  It
 WAS posted, because it WAS relevant.
 That should be clear enough.
-- 
Francis A. Uy			Program Director, WUMD
Newsgroups: news.groups,news.admin.policy
From: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes)
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Reply-To: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov
Organization: Jet Propulsion Lab - Pasadena, CA
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 21:11:44 GMT

jaapjl@tab00.larc.nasa.gov (J Lee Jaap) writes:
>Well, we arrive there by different means.  (And I do _not_ accept your
>summary of the argument on my behalf.)  Does this mean you're going
>to pipe down?

Only selectively. 
-- 
Dave Hayes - Network & Communications Engineering - JPL / NASA - Pasadena CA
dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov       dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov         ...usc!elroy!dxh

   When you have been your own teacher for a time, you may be ready
                                   to find someone else who can teach you.
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: cuz@chaos.cs.brandeis.edu (Cousin It)
Subject: Re: RFD : Rec.Music.College or Soc.College-Radio
Organization: Brandeis University
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 06:01:43 GMT

gusbergi@idbsu.edu writes:

|Currently college radio is a popular item across the country with bands like
|R.E.M. and Nirvana leaving the airwaves at higher ed and being played at
|popular stations. Most college students who are active in either playing or
|listen to college music have access to the internet and usenet. As well as the
|fact that current none of the music groups support college music.  

	Define "college music." I implore you to. Ten  to one you say
its "alternative music", yet another category of music which is
undefineable. However, so called "alternative music" is talked about
in rec.music.misc, alt.music.alternative, alt.rave, and many other alt
groups. However, If you want to talk about the college radio station I
work at, you would read rec.music.newage, r.m.classical, r.m.bluenote,
alt.rnr.metal, alt.rnr, as well as the ones above, and others. Since
there is no such thing as college radio, there is no need for this
group.

|I am also on the air at Boise State University and am implementing a new
|program called Radio Free Boise which will be a 2 hour weekly show done on all
|college music and alternative stuff.  Alot of people could be involved with a
|group of this nature.

	I assume this is your blurb on rec.radio.college. Although I
am not as opposed to this group, I feel other newsgroups already fit
the bill. I am supposing that your radio station is a non-commercial
station, thus, discussions would fit nicely in rec.radio.noncomm. If
not, try rec.radio.broadcasting. Also, there is a mailing list which
focuses on radio, called dj-l. Mail listserv@ndsuvm1.bitnet (although
this might not be up to date) with a message body saying sub dj-l
name. A second mailing list for college radio is nacb@gwuvm.bitnet.
Mail listserv@gwuvm.bitnet with the message body saying sub nacb name.

Cousin It                               cuz@cs.brandeis.edu
Special Productions Director            WBRS-100 FM-Waltham Ma.
and Engineer                            Live Music-4 Days a Week
Xref: sparky news.groups:21537 rec.music.synth:18397
From: jaapjl@tab00.larc.nasa.gov (J Lee Jaap)
Newsgroups: news.groups,rec.music.synth
Subject: jrossi's address requested (Re: r.m.makers reorg -- access problems)
Followup-To: news.groups
Date: 13 Nov 1992 19:07:26 GMT
Organization: AS&M Inc
Reply-To: J Lee Jaap <J.L.Jaap@larc.nasa.gov>
NNTP-Posting-Host: cmb00.larc.nasa.gov
Summary: Some people do want to help.
In-reply-to: gvh@metrosoft.com's message of Thu, 12 Nov 1992 15:59:00 GMT

gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen) writes:
   In article <1dr9b3INNcgn@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> fau@po.CWRU.Edu (Francis A.  
   Uy) writes:
   > The name change has robbed at least one person
   >  of access.  jrossi, who I wrote about in a
   >  previous article ("victim of r.m.m needs help"),

   Gee - where's the guy that offered to help when things like this happened?

Two have posted.  chip@tct.com is one I remember.  Send him jrossi's
address.  Some people here do try to be constructive.

[crossposted to r.m.s, in case jrossi is really interested]
--
J Lee Jaap <J.L.Jaap@LaRC.NASA.Gov> +1 804/864-2148
    employed by, not speaking for, AS&M Inc, at
         NASA LaRC, Hampton VA 23681-0001
From: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes)
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Reply-To: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov
Organization: Jet Propulsion Lab - Pasadena, CA
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 06:03:18 GMT

stanley@skyking.OCE.ORST.EDU (John Stanley) writes:
>>>I suppose you have mail in your mailbox from Bill Clinton objecting to
>>>the r.m.s rename vote.
>>From: clinton@democrats.org
>>To: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov
>>Subject: Renaming of rec.music.synth
>Sorry, Dave. Your forgery falls flat. Democrats.org is a non-existant
>domain.

Oh light-en up, for heaven's sake! Can't you tell a joke when you see it?

Sheesh. You'd think some people were really personally involved in this
flamewar. 

It's Only Just Another Usenet Flamewar. 
-- 
Dave Hayes - Network & Communications Engineering - JPL / NASA - Pasadena CA
dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov       dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov         ...usc!elroy!dxh

People who dream impossible dreams and strive to achieve them raise man's
stature a fraction of an inch in the process, whether they win or lose.
From: pmf$1349@altair.selu.edu
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: RE:  AHMADIYYA
Date: 8 Nov 92 20:22:28 -0600
Organization: Southeastern Louisiana University

I do not mean to flame, but if Ahmadis are Muslims and Islam calls for unity
and discussion of matters and shura, why would Ahmadis want to be separate than
the rest of the Muslims.  Unless they do not want people to disagree with them
or they think they are different in such cases they need to have their own news
group without branching out of islam.  A Muslim should discuss his/her Islamic
issues under Islam and NOT under a subgroup of Islam!

Rami Hijazi
From: rsk@gynko.circ.upenn.edu (Rich Kulawiec)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: rec.music.makers.*: chronology and comments from the vote-taker.
Date: 10 Nov 92 12:30:06 GMT
Organization: GSP Whitewater Slalom Racing Team

In article <1992Nov9.182504.1826@metrosoft.com> gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen) writes:
>> As I pointed out in my followup, I do not know why no such letters
>> showed up; I recognize a number of possible reasons, including apathy,
>> agreement, and mail failure; but I do not conclude that any of them
>> are "the" explanation  because I do not have any evidence that would
>> allow me to do so.
>
>At least recognize that the reason I have mentioned is plausible.

"Plausible" -- yes.  It might account, in part, for the absence of
any such letters.  But I sincerely doubt if it accounts for all of them.

>So far your other 'reasons' are less  substantiated than the one I presented.

There are a large numbers of articles on hand (post-vote) that indicating
that their authors had no problem with the Subject line.  I also have
271 votes on hand, submitted by people who apparently figured out
that the article involved something they wanted to read and act on.
As for "apathy" and "mail failure", you're absolutely right: not only
are these not substantiated, they probably can't be.  But they remain
as possible explanations until you can definitively rule them out...
which I think you'll find difficult to do.

---Rsk
Newsgroups: news.groups,rec.games.frp.dnd,rec.games.frp.misc
From: cwatters@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Coyt D Watters)
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.games.frp.campaign
Summary: rec.games.frp.dnd is not for the general discussion of campaigns, unless your campaign is an xDNDn campaign.
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 14:56:12 GMT

In article <BxBE4t.8LJ@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu> cbnorman@cayley.uwaterloo.ca () writes:
>In article <Bx8rLr.6vF@cen.ex.ac.uk> ma90gjp@cen.ex.ac.uk writes:
[Graham's query about where he can find r.g.f.campaign deleted]
>
>Rec.games.frp.campaign does not exist at this point.  It is a group which
>I have proposed be created.  Currently, the best place to discuss
>ideas for high level scenarios is rec.games.frp.dnd.

BUT ONLY IF YOU ARE DISCUSSING A CAMPAIGN SO SPECIFIC TO xDNDn THAT IT IS NOT
OF INTEREST TO THE GENERAL R.G.F.* COMMUNITY.

If you have campaigns written up as cbnorman wants them, why wait for a new
group to post them?  rec.games.frp.archives has always accepted and posted 
these works.  There are several campaign/stories which are posted to 
rec.games.frp.archives as the authors get each section done.  Campaigns which
started *BEFORE* the current hierarchy (way back when rec.games.frp was the
ONLY group) are still running, with their summaries posted to 
rec.games.frp.archives.

If you want to discuss (in an unmoderated, freeform discussion) issues about
running an ongoing campaign, post it to rec.games.frp.misc, and simply tag it
with the system you are playing, i.e.:

SUBJECT: GURPS: Cyberpunk campaign questions for long term gaming
SUBJECT: CHAMP: Campaign ideas rather than vignettes

If you have a general or idea which is not really germane to any system, post 
it without a tag:

SUBJECT: How does one feed a Renisance army on a long campaign?
SUBJECT: Why would you keep adventuring with a party which gets on your nerves

This lets readers with decent newsreaders (the majority) bypass those systems
in which they have no interest by adding the tagline to their killfiles.

-Coyt
(Who uses no killfiles, but is thinking about adding some VERY specific
 criteria to filter noise)


Newsgroups: news.groups,rec.music.synth
From: grether@cvt11.verfahrenstechnik.uni-stuttgart.de (Bernd Grether (sorescu))
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Reply-To: grether@cvt11.verfahrenstechnik.uni-stuttgart.de (Bernd Grether (sorescu))
Organization: Dep.Chem.Eng.(ICVT), Uni Stuttgart, FRG
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 10:23:14 GMT

In article <1992Nov4.232744.9048@jato.jpl.nasa.gov>, dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes) writes:
|> Here are some interesting statistics I just filtered out of all this.
|> I culled the entire r.m.s spool file (3 weeks of r.m.s) and did some
|> scanning to find out (of the voters) who did and did not participate
|> in r.m.s (defined as a poster of course). 
|> 
|>  % of the Yes vote that comes from participants: 6.875
|>  % of the No vote that comes from participants: 23.729

I don't have the voting result at hand, but since there were a lot more
Yes than No votes, this means absolutely nothing.
How many of the participiants(TM) voted Yes/No?


|> It would be clear, allowing for even a 50% error in this that more of
|> the participants do NOT want the name change. Another interesting note:
|> 
|>  % of the vote that comes from participants:    11

Seems to me like they were not interested at all.


|> [I think the time has come to ask the ENTIRE net what it thinks about this
|> state of affairs. A wide-scale crosspost may accomplish this feat, but I 
|> do need to think about this some more. Comments are welcome.]

This is a valid vote, so what's your point?
I don't think Rich has to proof anything as you suggested in another post.
Why can't the people with the not counted No-votes speak for themselves?

BTW, neither am I interested in r.m.s or r.m.m.s nor have I voted.
This is just an opinion from a part of the entire net.

-- 
Bernd "booster bendi" Grether | Ain't singing for Pepsi
                              | ain't singing for Coke
*** bi uns cha me au          | I don't sing for nobody
    alemannisch schwaetze *** | makes me look like a joke (Neil Young)
Xref: sparky news.groups:20878 rec.games.frp.misc:8026 rec.games.frp.dnd:6032 rec.games.frp.advocacy:3143
From: randall-joshua@yale.edu (Joshua Randall)
Newsgroups: news.groups,rec.games.frp.misc,rec.games.frp.dnd,rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: rec.games.frp.campaign MODERATED
Date: 9 Nov 1992 19:22:49 -0500
Organization: Yale University Science & Engineering UNIX(tm), New Haven, CT 06520-2158
NNTP-Posting-Host: minerva.cis.yale.edu

In article <BxGvuF.E03@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu> cbnorman@cayley.uwaterloo.ca () writes:
[much stuff deleted]

>If you'll check the .campaign proposal, you won't see any statement that 
>I should be the moderator.  No one else has spoken to me about being
>interested in the job.  If someone does, then the issue of who should
>be the moderated will be raised.

Oh, you asked for this one.  Here goes:

Hey cb, I would like to be moderator of "rec.games.frp.campaign".
Whadday say?

By the way, what does "cb" stand for anyway?
-- 
Joshua E. Randall                       randall@minerva.cis.yale.edu
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: lohsej@pell2l2.alleg.edu (James Lohse)
Subject: Legal Systems
Organization: Allegheny College
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 21:36:34 GMT

Is there anyone that can tell which newsgroup I might be able to look into  
for information on different legal systems or something thereabouts?   My  
thesis for senior year is going to revolve around the French Legal System  
and I need to find something (library apps or newsnets) that might steer  
me in the right direction.  

If anyone has any info e-mail me at lohsej@alleg.edu

Jim Lohse
From: tdunn@ecst.csuchico.edu (Tim Dunn)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: rec.games.frp.campaign
Date: 13 Nov 92 16:44:46 GMT
Organization: California State University, Chico
NNTP-Posting-Host: hairball.ecst.csuchico.edu


Alright, here's a simple quiz for you (second one, and the first one is
still waiting)

1) How many 'editions' has your proposal undergone?

2) How many of those were the result of you learning that such facets
   as moderating a discussion group, posting player moves, etc were
   fubar's in this net?

3) Now the proposed group will be unmoderated, will not allow player
   moves in charter, etc, what makes it different than r.g.f.archives
   and r.g.f.misc|dnd?

4) Do you intend/allow for/forsee any future changes (anything else
   marked <under debate>)?

-- 
Ogden's Law:
	The sooner you fall behind, the more time you have to catch
	up.
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: rorschak@daimi.aau.dk (Jesper Lauridsen)
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Organization: Xanth Watch
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 92 21:37:47 GMT

gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen) writes:

>In article <1992Nov8.160325.26727@daimi.aau.dk> rorschak@daimi.aau.dk  
>(Jesper Lauridsen) writes:

>> Has it? I haven't seen any such thing - could you back that statement
>> with some more facts or are you just using the standard flamewar method
>> of avoiding to deal with the arguments of your opponents.
>> 

>Yes I can:

>> jhildeb1@cc.swarthmore.edu (Jeff Hildebrand) writes:
>>
>> For example the CFV for rec.arts.sf.starwars was
>> crossposted to rec.arts.sf.misc and maybe even sf.tv.
>> Nothing happened to those groups but the crosspost was
>> made to get people's attention. So if the CFV said nothing
>> about the renaming in the subject line I don't think it's
>> unreasonable for people to think that it was there only to
>> attract some more people who might be interested. 
>> 

Starwars discussion has in the years been posted often to rec.arts.sf*
(note how this includes rec.arts.sf-lovers :-)), therefore a new
starwars group would have influence on the discussion there.

>So therefore people aren't entitled to some form of clear notification?  
>Those are problems that can be solved. Why are you so resistant to clear  
>notification?

This looks pretty clear to me:

Proposal E: Rename rec.music.synth to rec.music.makers.synth
Charter: "Synthesizers and computer music"  [UNCHANGED FROM CURRENT]
-- 
Jesper Lauridsen        |  I survived the rec.arts.sf-lovers split
rorschak@daimi.aau.dk   | 
Xref: sparky news.groups:20467 news.admin.policy:153
From: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes)
Newsgroups: news.groups,news.admin.policy
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Date: 6 Nov 92 18:53:36 GMT
Article-I.D.: jato.1992Nov6.185336.22685
Reply-To: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov
Organization: Jet Propulsion Lab - Pasadena, CA

jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard) writes:
>As things are currently structured, yes. To make them eligible to vote,
>though, you would have to allow posted votes, and that's clearly a Bad Thing.

How are posted votes different from emailed votes? BOTH can be forged...
(Just curious...there's not a whole lot this has to do with the debate at hand)

>One other point: If these folks are that far disconnected from the net, what
>to they care what the Usenet group is called? They never see it anyway. Only
>those poeple on Usenet care what a Usenet group is called.

They care when the group does not appear on their BBS anymore. 

>They had their chance to vote. They blew it. Tough cookies.

No way. I suspect that the wording of the subject line was enough to 
fool them into losing concern. I'd really like to hold a revote with a
proper subject line (what could it hurt?)...if that revote passes then 
I'll shut up. 

>You're ignoring the strong, and growing, opinion that a better organized net
>IS for the "help and health" (is someone really going to get physically ill if
>they don't get their daily dose of rec.music.synth?) of the net citizens.

By what standard should it be better organized? Is there a consensus on the
standard? 

>Further, keeping news admins happy IS beneficial for the users; an unhappy
>admin will just chop away at the groups his site gets and passes along.

You mean like ME? <grin>

>opportunity; their silence doomed them to accept whatever those who had and
>expressed opinions came up with.

I will never agree to that. Silence as an implied vote is a wonderful tool
of political control. 

>>My highest priority is the net.users...not the Guidelines. This case has
>>demonstrated to me that in this situation, the Guidelines are not preferable.
>>I and my site remain opposed to this result. 
>...and you and your site will become a little island of obstinacy in a sea of
>cooperation. 

That sea has many storms and rocks. Don't fool yourself. 

>they do work. They have produced results I disagree with, but I put up with
>them anyway.

Well, YOU violate your own ethics for the sake of an imperfect bunch of
unworkable rules. I choose not to, if this is the result of following them.

I *will*, however, start/help a movement to rewrite the Guidelines should
there be enough unfettered cooperation with news admins and net admins
to warrant it. There's bound to be enough pissed off people (given the
current state of affairs) that this will work.
-- 
Dave Hayes - Network & Communications Engineering - JPL / NASA - Pasadena CA
dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov       dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov         ...usc!elroy!dxh

Honest (adj.) - Someone who is secretly regarded by everyone as an enemy.
From: rsk@gynko.circ.upenn.edu (Rich Kulawiec)
Newsgroups: news.groups,alt.config
Subject: Re: Dave Hayes will not quit
Date: 12 Nov 92 16:29:04 GMT
Followup-To: news.groups
Organization: GSP Whitewater Slalom Racing Team

In article <1992Nov12.011254.27520@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> jfurr@nyx.cs.du.edu (Mr. Furr) writes:
>Tim, how about we just find Dave Hayes and use the immense resources of
>the net to make his life a living hell?
>
>Or maybe we could just go beat him up?

Please, no.  This discussion has gotten acrimonious enough without
encouraging harassment or violence.  I don't like being the target
of some of the things that have been thrown in my direction (such as
the suggestion of lynching), and I doubt if Dave likes being the target
of some of the things that have been tossed his way.  (Of course, I defer
to him on this; I can't possibly speak for him.) I think whatever
our point of view, we would all be best-served by sticking to the
known facts, and *only* the known facts, as best as we possibly can.
Speculation, inference, attribution of motives, along with suggestions
of harassment, only serve to obscure the issues and make people angry.

---Rsk
From: mxl@cbnewsg.cb.att.com (marc.a.levy)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Newsgroup Moderator.
Date: 11 Nov 92 19:46:40 GMT
Organization: AT&T

How would someone go about getting a new moderator for a news
group?

Marc.
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes)
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Reply-To: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov
Organization: Jet Propulsion Lab - Pasadena, CA
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 11:33:45 GMT

stanley@skyking.OCE.ORST.EDU (John Stanley) writes:
>"RFD". "CFV". Very clear.

Not to Bill Clinton. 
-- 
Dave Hayes - Network & Communications Engineering - JPL / NASA - Pasadena CA
dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov       dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov         ...usc!elroy!dxh

Ours is a world where people don't know what they want but are willing 
to go through hell to get it.
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: rorschak@daimi.aau.dk (Jesper Lauridsen)
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Organization: Xanth Watch
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 92 21:53:25 GMT

dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes) writes:

>>And you are saying that this is adequate grounds to completely scrap a
>>perfectly valid vote?

>Yes. The voter turnout was skewed. 

You don't know that. All you is that 11% or something like that of the 
votes came from posters from the last 3 weeks or so (you haven't mentioned
how many of the posters that voted though). You know absolutly nothing
about how many readers voted, nor do you know what those that didn't
read the proposal would have thought of it.
-- 
Jesper Lauridsen        |  I survived the rec.arts.sf-lovers split
rorschak@daimi.aau.dk   | 
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: igb@fulcrum.co.uk (Ian G Batten)
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Organization: Fulcrum Communications
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 10:15:21 GMT

In article <1992Nov9.115408.28715@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov writes:
> This sounds just like any argument used to justify inconsideration and 
> disrespect to an ignorant or powerless minority. Sort of like "No ethnic
> minorities in the streets after 10pm". Shall I continue on this line
> of reasoning?

Rename compared to racial segregation!  Next move: killing of group
compared to genocide, Jay-as-Hitler, imminent death of net predicted,
film, even, at eleven.

I shall go and watch CNN RIGHT NOW.

ian
Newsgroups: news.groups