From: aabdalla@pollux.usc.edu (Ahmed Abd-Allah)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Islamic stories...
Date: 26 Aug 1992 11:57:07 -0700
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: pollux.usc.edu

In article <BtKpJq.35M@acsu.buffalo.edu> psyrobtw@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Robert Weiss) writes:
>In article <l9ku2fINNe8d@pollux.usc.edu>, aabdalla@pollux.usc.edu (Ahmed Abd-Allah) writes...
>
>[...]
>>I've pointed out in a couple of other articles that the Bible has enough
>>errors that it's incorrect to call it 'true.'  The Qur'an is free of these
>>errors because it is from God Himself - it is not even an 'inspired' word
>>of a man; rather it is direct Divine revelation.
>
>	Pulling out my local Qur'an:

I'm glad you posted: it gives me an opportunity to really start a good 
discussion now.  First: who wrote the translation you used?

>	God never commands us to do a shameful thing (7:28; 6:131)
>	God commands people to sin in order to rightly destroy them 
>	(17:16)

I strongly recommend that you abstain from quoting things in fragments
to hide their context - not just with the Qur'an, but in general.  And
with the Qur'an, you ought to quote the verse directly, instead of 
paraphrasing as you do.

Verse [7:28] is speaking on the mentality of some people who sin:

	[7:28]
	When they do anything that is shameful, they say:
	"We found our fathers doing so" and "Allah commanded
	us thus".  Say (O Prophet): "Nay, Allah never
	commands what is shameful: Do you attribute to Allah
	something of which you have no knowledge?"

I don't know what your translation is talking about in [6:131]; it
is very clearly wrong.  It does not speak of the same subject as [7:28].
[6:131] states that God does not destroy any community for its evils
until it has been warned.

	[6:131]
	For they Lord would not destroy a community for its 
	wrongdoing so long as its people are unwarned (or ignorant).

By paraphrasing [17:16] AND ignoring the verses preceding it you add
to the translator's mistranslation: a double mistake.  You have conjured
a "contradiction" between your own words, but not with the words of the
Qur'an.  [17:16] discusses the circumstances leading up to a community's
punishment from God for its evils.

	[17:15]
	Whoever chooses to follow the right path follows it
	but for his own good; and whoever goes astray goes but
	astray to his own detriment: and no bearer of burdens
	(of responsibility) can bear the burden of another.
	Moreover, We would never chastise (a sinning community)
	unless We had sent a messenger (to warn them).
	[17:16]
	When We decide to destroy a community We (first) send
	a command (to mend their ways) to those among them
	who are given the good things of this life and yet 
	transgress, until the word is proved true against them
	(with no excuse): then We destroy them entirely.

So these two verses speak of the Mercy of God: punishment is not
inflicted until a messenger is sent first, and if things "look
hopeless", a final warning is sent to the 'haves' in the 
society (who are presumably the leaders, unlike the 'have-nots'), and
only if this final warning has no effect does punishment come.

Why did you misquote?

>	8 days in Creation (41:9-12)
>	6 days in cretaion (10:3, 11:7, 7:54)

With this paraphrase, you commit an outright lie, if I may be so blunt.  
I hate to use such strong language, but you should have quoted the
entire passage instead of paraphrasing.  NOWHERE in [41:9-12] is a
figure of '8 days' given.  I leave it to you to present your claim.
I do not have the time to enter the entire Qur'an into Newsnet: please
give your quotes from now on.  And find an honest translation, written
by a Muslim - believe me, this is not asking for too much.
 
 
>	Commands people to wait one year in order to remarry after the 
>	death of a spouse (2:240)
>	Wait for only 4 months and 10 days (2:234)
 
Either your translator has made an even worse mistake, or you have
misread something.  Either way, your paraphrase is wrong.

	[2:240]
	Those of you who die and leave widows behind should
	bequeath for their widows a year's maintenance and
	residence.  But if they leave (the residence), there is
	no sin in whatever they do with themselves so long as
	as it is lawful.  And God is Almighty, Wise.

I won't bother addressing your 'contradiction': it's more interesting
to discuss the truth.  Here, God has told men to plan for leaving
behind a safeguard for their widows should they die, so as not to cause
them any economic hardship - and this includes a place to live, not an
unreasonable thing really.  However, the widow is free to leave if
she wishes.

Before addressing [2:234], let me mention the general topic of verses
[2:232] and [2:233] - I refuse to waste my time and lose my job for the
hastiness of someone else's misquotation so that I have to type in tons
to correct his or her mistakes.  [2:232] and [2:233] are prolonged 
orders regarding BABIES and marriage.

	[2:234]
	And if any of you die and leave widows behind, they shall
	wait by themselves for four months and ten days.  When they
	have fulfilled this term, there is no sin in whatever they
	do with themselves so long as it is lawful.  And Allah
	is aware of all that you do.

Is it obvious?  The widows should wait this long for any pregnancy to
show before REMARRYING - hence "by themselves."  Is this unreasonable -
especially in light of the fact that her deceased husband has left her
enough resources to survive for a year (and how long is pregnancy)?

>	God said Muhammad not to marry any other woman (33:52)
>	God told Muhammad to marry any one he wanted or liked (33:50)

When I saw how long these two verses were, I nearly fainted...  Your
translator and yourself are again guilty of mistranslation, misquotation,
and thus wrong.

	The beginning of [33:50]
	O Prophet, We have made lawful to you your wives to
	whom you have paid their dower...

	The beginning of [33:52]
	It is not lawful to you (O Prophet) to (marry more) 
	women after this...

Where's the contradiction?  [33:50] speaks of the wives of the Prophet.
[33:52] speaks of other women.  In this case, I don't think your translator
made a mistake: I find it hard to believe he doesn't know the difference
between the Arabic words for 'wives' and 'women'.  Perhaps you misread 
something.

>>	much love in Christianity.  Christians often mistakenly
>>	think that only their religion has love...  Wrong.  Islam
>>	is from the same One God who sent Jesus as His mortal
[stuff deleted]
>>	You'll find the love still present, but
>[...]
>	Commands them to kill non-Muslims after the months of Rageab, 
>	Zu El Kea'ada, Zu El Heaga, Ramadan (9:5; 9:73; 66:9; 2:193; 
>	2:256)

The logic that you are using is mysterious to me.  My previous post
spoke of the Love of God.  Your reply is to come up with five verses -
and not a single one quoted - that speak of war.  However, in this case
your are at least partially right: these verses DO speak of war.

But what does this have to do with the Love of God?  War is most certainly
allowed by God against people who have attacked the Muslims.  The funny
thing is that in those very same verses that you quote, permission to 
fight is given only where fighting has started - being initiated by the
active enemies of Muslims.  Muslims do NOT turn the other cheek: war is
harsh fact of life when someone comes to take all that you own.

>=============================
>Robert Weiss
>psyrobtw@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu

I do feel bad about using some strong language against your post.  No
harm is intended against you, but I think you ought to get a real 
translation of the Qur'an, and then quote from there.

Ahmed A. Abd-Allah