HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: Jeremy_Reimer@mindlink.bc.ca (Jeremy Reimer)
Subject: Re: CLI/GUI wars (was Re: Apple IIGS being discontinued...)
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1993 09:59:32 GMT

> Doug Siebert writes:
>
> Msg-ID: <1993Jan1.192601.11182@icaen.uiowa.edu>
> Posted: Fri, 1 Jan 1993 19:26:01
>
> Org.  : Iowa Computer Aided Engineering Network, University of Iowa
>
> azog@spatula.rent.com (Billy D'Augustine) writes:
>
> >You forget to mention the Atari ST. This is also a GUI based machine,
> >the GUI being GEM, and the OS being TOS (for 'the operating system' :-)
> >which has a similar feel to MS-DOS.
>
> I remember back in the early 80's when 8-bit Ataris were still big (and
> that
> was all I had) the computer magazines started talking about the 68000 based
> ST in development, and said TOS stood for Tramiel Operating System, named
> after Jack Tramiel, who came on board Atari after Warner sold them.
>
>


Just to add a tidbit of info for any Atari fans moving into the "real world"
:)

GEMulator, an Atari ST emulator for the PC is now available for $299.  On a
20Mhz 486SX it was benchmarked as outperforming a stock Mega ST in every test
except display speed (Source: The Computer Paper, December 1992)

Because of the similar file systems you can access ST files from the GEM
window or from DOS or regular Windows.  One drawback: it must be installed in
a <32MB partition to work.  You run the GEMulator in either DOS or under
Windows.

A neat quote from the author, Darek Mihocka: "I've hated Atari ever since
they hassled me about the 8-bit emulator.  This is my revenge."

It's always neat to run other machine's software on one's PC.  This could
become a thread of its own:  I know of the following emulators for IBM
compatible machines:

CP/M emulator (every machine should have one:)
Apple II emulator (even runs games, requires 286+, I've seen it and it's
pretty cool)
Atari ST emulator (as above)
NeXT emulator (NeXTstep 486, not quite released)

I also read of a Mac emulator years ago in a PC rag that (unfortunately)
would only run Mac programs that were written in a specific set of C
compilers.  Not too useful and it didn't last long.  Mind you these days most
of the Mac software is available for Windoze anyway, even new(ish) stuff like
Fractal Design Painter, Illustrator, etc.

We may soon see the day when anything will run on anything!  (But I doubt
this will settle any of the age-old flame wars, though :)




--
Jeremy_Reimer@ |"It turned out, as N-Man discovered later, that the black
mindlink.bc.ca | boat hadn't been after him at all.  It was full of riotous,
---------------| unemployed former James Bond villains enraged at the fall
aka THE JAGUAR!| of Communism in the Soviet Union."
---------------|
Stealth Sig#69 |  --From "N-Man #3: N-Man on Holiday"
From: jimf@centerline.com (Jim Frost)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: PI
Date: 21 Dec 1992 13:51:40 GMT
Organization: CenterLine Software, Inc.
NNTP-Posting-Host: 140.239.3.202

peter@NeoSoft.com (Peter da Silva) writes:
>> >>>>>Back to folklore - what's everybody's favorite fast-converging
>> >>>>>series expansion for 'pi'?

>You know what's really sad: none of the answers are series expansions!

Not so, mine was -- the series for arctan times four.

jim frost
jimf@centerline.com
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: peter@NeoSoft.com (Peter da Silva)
Subject: Re: Help needed identifying old Intel chips (4004?)
Organization: NeoSoft Communications Services -- (713) 684-5900
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1993 05:39:22 GMT
Keywords: Intel 4004 4002 4001

In article <erd.05jd@kumiss.cmhnet.org> erd@kumiss.cmhnet.org (Ethan Dicks) writes:
> All chips have a large (3mm) lower case, bold "i" on the left edge of the
> surface and have 16 pins.

That's the right pin count for a 4004.

> 	o Is this *really* an Intel 4004?

Could be.

> 	o What is a 4001 and why would so many of them come from
> 	  the same unit?

256x8 Mask-programmable ROM and 4-bit I/O port, for code storage.

> 	o Is it possible to get specifications for any of these parts?

I have the MCS-4 user's manual here.

The 4002 is a 320 bit RAM (organized as 4 registors containing 20 nybbles
(16 memory, 4 status) each). The memory and status parts of each register
are addressed using different instructions. I wonder why you don't have any.
-- 
Peter da Silva.  <peter@sugar.neosoft.com>.
 `-_-'   Oletko halannut suttasi tnn?
  'U`    
Tarjoilija, tm ateria el viel.
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: gaillard@panix.com (Ed Gaillard)
Subject: Re: What is so greate about the PDP 10?
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1992 03:38:26 GMT
Organization: Radio Free Hades

popec@unkaphaed.gbdata.com (William C. Barwell) writes:


>Somebody what used to sell 'puters during this era told me that the old 
>adage, 'nobody ever got fired for buying IBM', held for PC's and XTs.
>In many offices, IBM was mandated as the only machine allowed.
>Too bad.  

A quote from one of the trade mags right after the IBM-PC was
introduced, sticks in my mind:  "IBM could have put a squirrel in a
cage and called it a PC, and people would have rushed to buy it."

How the mighty have fallen.  Hee hee hee.

-ed g.
<gaillard@panix.com> 
Best wishes for a joyful HolidayOfYourChoice
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: pt@geovision.gvc.com (Paul Tomblin)
Subject: Re: Famous flame wars, examples please?
Reply-To: pt@geovision.gvc.com
Organization: Not officially GeoVision Systems Inc., Ottawa, Ontario
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 00:36:07 GMT

davei@wam.umd.edu (The One True Dave) writes:
>In article <1gm2u1INN2g5@darkstar.UCSC.EDU> aryeh@cash.ucsc.edu (Aryeh Friedman) writes:
>>In article <1g5s9sINN97a@armory.centerline.com> jimf@centerline.com (Jim Frost) writes:
>>>machines couldn't run a real version of emacs even if they tried, and
>>That proves vi kicks emacs' butt.  The reasons being:
>Well, if you look at it that way, ed has all the features you NEED in an

Ummm - maybe I'm missing the point here, but I thought the originator of
this thread was asking for descriptions of great flame wars of the past,
not asking people to restart them...

Furrfu!

-- 
Paul Tomblin (I don't make or state policy for this company)
"Well, this looks absolutely brilliant and completely unmarketable."
"Thanks.  I'm technology driven" - Dilbert
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: jones@pyrite.cs.uiowa.edu (Douglas W. Jones,201H MLH,3193350740,3193382879)
Subject: Re: 80C86 (Re: Is 4004 the first ...)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 03:25:02 GMT
Organization: University of Iowa, Iowa City, IA, USA

From article <C0B4KA.p2@NeoSoft.com>, by peter@NeoSoft.com (Peter da Silva):
> In article <1993Jan3.205323.26282@news.uiowa.edu> jones@pyrite.cs.uiowa.edu (Douglas W. Jones,201H MLH,3193350740,3193382879) writes:
>> The 80C86 is a C-mos version of the 8086.  Nothing more or less.  That
>> means that it runs at lower power than the 8086.  If you want a radiation
>> hardened launch certified mil specs microprocessor, the 80C86 may be the
>> most available, with a cost not too much over $10,000 per chip.
> 
> With that sort of pricing it's no wonder the 1802 (OK, cjl has a think for the
> PDP-8, I have a thing for the 1802) was still in use up through Magellan.
> -- 
> Peter da Silva.  <peter@sugar.neosoft.com>.
>  `-_-'   Oletko halannut suttasi tnn?
>   'U`    
> Tarjoilija, tm ateria el viel.
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: peter@NeoSoft.com (Peter da Silva)
Subject: Re: Worlds wierdest system crash!
Organization: NeoSoft Communications Services -- (713) 684-5900
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 10:42:44 GMT

In article <1992Dec22.084501.17223@ringer.cs.utsa.edu> sbooth@lonestar.utsa.edu (Simon E. Booth) writes:
> I don't know how familliar people are with this story, but I was once told
> that the computer term 'bug' actually was derived from an incident in the
> early or mid-50's in which a dead moth shorted out a magnetic drum.

Grace Hopper used to tell this story, but the word bug predated it.

Incidentally I'm the guy who saw *THE* bug in the Smithsonian in 1979, and
Eric's contact at the Smithsonian who claimed it had never been there must
have been mistaken.
-- 
Peter da Silva.  <peter@sugar.neosoft.com>.
 `-_-'   Oletko halannut suttasi tnn?
  'U`    
Tarjoilija, tm ateria el viel.
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: tonyl@vcd.hp.com (Tony Long)
Subject: Re: Apple IIGS being discontinued Dec 1992
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1993 02:36:06 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard VCD
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5

Nicholas C. Weaver (nweaver@soda.berkeley.edu) wrote:
: 
: 	{Discussions on if apple had a CLI deleted}
: 
: 	The reason for a command line interface is simple, there are certain
: things that you can do in a CLI that you can't do in a GUI.  For example,
: try moving all files starting with Let to the directory Letters.  How do you
: do this easily in a GUI?  A CLI for some purposes is superior, because of
: it's higher level of abstraction.  Just because a CLI is offered doesn't
: mean that it's used very often, or even encouraged.  (Witness NeXT.  Yes,
: there is a full Unix, and you can shell in anytime you want, however, most
: user's don't unless they are doing specific things that work better in a
: command line situation).

	Having stuck with a CLI for a long time via DOS, then moved to
using Windows on PC's because that's what was standard at work and using
UNIX with my work station (for my *real* job) I can appreciate the good
in both. Windows gives me multitasking on my PC with excellent apps. But
I always have my DOS command line, run minimized to call up whenever
needed, which I run in a window multitasking with other apps.
	However, you can't beat UNIX workstations for power in multitasking,
with GUI's available and having command line windows available for simul-
aneous and virtually seamless operations.
	I take the PC with windows and a command line window for nifty 
multitasking of graphically maniputlateable wordprocessors, spreadsheets,
editors, compiler/editor/intterfaces and other apps that are peripheral
to my work. But what a wonder UNIX is!

				Tony

a command line window for nifty word processors, 

Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: pt@geovision.gvc.com (Paul Tomblin)
Subject: Re: CLI/GUI wars (was Re: Apple IIGS being discontinued...)
Reply-To: pt@geovision.gvc.com
Organization: Not officially GeoVision Systems Inc., Ottawa, Ontario
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1993 00:58:25 GMT

dsiebert@icaen.uiowa.edu (Doug Siebert) writes:
>was all I had) the computer magazines started talking about the 68000 based
>ST in development, and said TOS stood for Tramiel Operating System, named
>after Jack Tramiel, who came on board Atari after Warner sold them.

Jack Tramiel _bought_ Atari (for approximately nothing) when he got muscled
out of Commodore - the company he founded and turned into a $Billion/year
company - starting with a typewriter repair shop in Toronto.

Warner basically dumped Atari when the bottom fell out of the home computer
market.  When Tramiel took over he (or rather his brother? (Leonard?)) made
millions of extravagant promises, and actually shipped some of them - like
the ST - but never delivered the one I was waiting for - the $5000 Unix
workstation based on the 68030, which I first heard him promise in about
1986.  But one of the first things he did was he tried to grab a little
company called `Amiga', but Commodore beat him to it.

-- 
Paul Tomblin, pt@compass.gvc.com
"Her love was like a wave-division multiplexor" - Dilbert
(This is not an official opinion of GeoVision Systems Inc.)
From: jonathan@vinnie.cuc.ab.ca (Jonathan Levine)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: WANTED: Ted Nelson's "Computer Lib / Dream Machines"
Date: 22 Dec 92 15:13:03 GMT

If you have (or know of) a copy of "Computer Lib / Dream Machines"
by Ted Nelson that's languishing on a shelf and needs a good home,
I'm willing to pay a reasonable price for it.

Please note that I'm looking for the original 70s large format
edition, NOT the Microsoft Press edition.

thx.


--
Jonathan Levine: voice 403-686-0473 | Digital Alternatives      (Calgary AB)
                 fax   403-686-1254 | Virtual Universe Corp.    (Calgary AB)
      uucp: jonathan@vort.cuc.ab.ca | Survival Research Laboratories (SF CA)
From: liljeber@hydra.Helsinki.FI (Mika Liljeberg)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Pgm to calculate pi (56 secs on 486/33 46 secs on Amiga 4000)
Date: 2 Jan 93 18:59:45 GMT
Organization: Department of Computer Science, University of Helsinki, Finland

In article <1993Jan01.115722.18043@crash> uzun@crash.cts.com (Roger Uzun) wrote:
> The following pgm will calculate pi to arbitrary # of digits.
> It is all integer ops, no floating point.
> On a 486/33 it can calc 3000 digits in 56 secs, in an Amiga 4000,
> 3000 digits in 46 secs.  Using SAS/C on the Amiga, using
> Metaware High C, 486 protected mode optimized code and the
> Phar Lap DOS-Extender on the 486.  Under Tubo-C on a 486/33 it
> takes 4.55 Minutes (real mode 286 code)
> 
> -Roger
> /******* pgm begins here ********/
> /* Amiga 3000 can do 3,000 PI digits in approx 3 mins 8.05 seconds */
> /* Amiga with 50 mhz 030 can do 3,000 PI digits in approx 2 mins 11 secs */
> /* Amiga 4000 in 46 secs */
> /* 33 Mhz 386 under Xenix in 1 Min 35 secs */
> /* 33 Mhz 386 under Turbo C 7 Mins 58 secs */
> /* 33 Mhz 486 under Turbo C 4 Mins 40 secs */
> /* 33Mhz 386  under HI C 1 Minute 30 secs */
> /* 33Mhz 486  under HI C 0 Minute 56 secs */

For kicks, I ran this on a 486DX/50 running Linux. I used GCC 2.3.3
with full optimizations. The time for 3000 digits is 32 seconds. :-)

	Mika
--
Mika Liljeberg			Email:	liljeber@hydra.Helsinki.FI
Helsinki University			Mika.Liljeberg@Helsinki.FI
Dept. of Computer Science
From: popec@unkaphaed.gbdata.com (William C. Barwell)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: What is so greate about the PDP 10?
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 92 19:14:04 GMT
Organization: Unka Phaed's UUCP Thingy, Houston, TX

peter@NeoSoft.com (Peter da Silva) writes:

> In article <1992Dec19.130721.13324@news.columbia.edu> lasner@watsun.cc.columb
> > When the Rainbow was being thunk through, the world was using Victor 9000
> > aka Sirius 1, a much better 8088 PC than an IBM.
> 
> Among others. I don't think there was a serious company out there that
> didn't look at the IBM-PC and say "geeze, we could do better than this with
> one lobe tied behind our hindbrain" and proceed to produce an 8088, 8086,
> or (later) 80186 based machine that made the IBM look sick. If they'd got
> together and agreed on the *same* superior box they might have pulled it
> off, too. Unfortunately, IBM was bigger and only Compaq had a product that
> was better *enough* to hang on.
> 
> I think the Victor used an 8086, by the way. Other contenders were the HP (ye
> the 150 had lots of HP brain damage but it was still better than the first fe
> generations of the IBM), Corona, Compaq (of course), and DEC.
> -- 
> Peter da Silva.  <peter@sugar.neosoft.com>.
>  `-_-'   Oletko halannut suttasi tnn?
>   'U`    
> Tarjoilija, tm ateria el viel.

Somebody what used to sell 'puters during this era told me that the old 
adage, 'nobody ever got fired for buying IBM', held for PC's and XTs.
In many offices, IBM was mandated as the only machine allowed.
Too bad.  And another problem was that big companies like Victor or DEC 
were the ones who had the most to fear from IBMs lawyers.  The Klone 
makers didn't have that much fear cause they could always declare 
bankruptcy in case of a lawsuitt lost.  When you are working out of a 
garage, you don't have much to fear.


--
popec@unkaphaed.gbdata.com (William C. Barwell)
Unka Phaed's UUCP Thingy, Houston, TX, (713) 943-2728
After December 31, (713) 481-3763
1200/2400/9600/14400 v.32bis/v.42bis
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: peter@NeoSoft.com (Peter da Silva)
Subject: Re: minor typo in my cdrom/ld post
Organization: NeoSoft Communications Services -- (713) 684-5900
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 03:19:15 GMT

In article <1992Dec30.113842.14736@panix.com> dannyb@panix.com (Daniel Burstein) writes:
> seriously... at first glance color tv should take three times the
> bandwidth of monochrome, but in reality, they were able to fit it

Yeh, they did it by crippling the color. They took advantage of the fact
that existing monitors couldn't display all the data, and hit a modicum
of color information at a frequency too high for the mono sets guns to
display. But it's nowhere near 3 times the original data.

Try hooking your TV up as a computer monitor and you'll see what I mean.

HDTV works by further degrading the color signal. Way to go, folks.
-- 
Peter da Silva.  <peter@sugar.neosoft.com>.
 `-_-'   Oletko halannut suttasi tnn?
  'U`    
Tarjoilija, tm ateria el viel.
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: octal to decimal converter?
From: liam@durie.amigans.gen.nz (Liam Greenwood)
Date: 29 Dec 92 17:01:47 GMT+12
Distribution: world
Organization: It's Home, really...
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]

Don Stokes (don@zl2tnm.gen.nz) wrote:
> liam@durie.amigans.gen.nz (Liam Greenwood) writes:
> >    Also why do we have to waste so much of the word? A 36 bit word will fit
> > either 6 Fieldata characters or 4 ASCII characters...
> The point was to not favour any architecture.  All common architectures
> (barring bit slicers, four bitters or worse) can manage to shove a
> character into the bottom end of a word register/accumulator and perform
> the architecture's equivalent of a subroutine call.  In bare metal code
    That's no problem, I just wondered _why_ only one character allowed per
word when the machine does 4 or 6 characters to the word. It adds a bunch
of complication to a simple problem.

> disk files.  Do you have C on your Univac dinosaurs?  8-)  For my test
    C is available, we don't have it... Dinosaur? Surely you mean "Information
Hub" :-) ?
>
> BTW: A 36 bit machine can manage five ASCII characters to the word....
    Exec is fieldata oriented with ASCII added on. 6 bit fieldata characters,
allowing 6 per word, 9 bit ASCII, giving 4 per word.

--
 Liam Greenwood ------ liam@durie.amigans.gen.nz ------ Wanganui, N.Z.
                 Don't tell my Mother I'm a programmer,
               she thinks I'm a piano player in a brothel
From: aj923@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (P. J. Remner)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: CLI/GUI wars (was Re: Apple IIGS being discontinued...)
Date: 3 Jan 1993 19:18:13 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: aj923@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (P. J. Remner)
NNTP-Posting-Host: slc10.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, chris@132.236.236.45 (Christopher A. Wolf) says:

>> Amiga
>>
>> CLI: Looked pretty DOS-like to me.  AREXX helps.
>
>If you considered the Amiga CLI DOS-like I don't think you could have
>spent too much time using it.  (not a flame - just an observation)
>Also, I assume we are talking about the AmigaDOS Shell not the CLI
>per se.  IMO, its much more Unix-like than DOS-like - has support for
>IO redirection, pipes, editable command lines and command history,
>32 character mixed case filenames, ability to launch/control background
>processes, etc.  none of which (to my knowledge) MS-DOS can claim.
>

I don't know about DR-DOS, but MS-DOS _HAS_ support for I/O redirection
(the CTTY command), and piping.  I'm not so sure about what you mean
be "editable command lines", but there are meany shareware and freeware
utilities that can provide command history.  I'm also not sure what you
mean by the ability to launch/control background processes.  Do you mean
multitasking, task switching, or popup utilities?  The DOS Shell provides
task switching, although it is _VERY_ clunky. (Maybe MS wants you to get
WIndows instead, eh?)  Actually, come to think of it, the Shell may also
provide some command history and whatever you mean by "editable command
lines".

-- 
aj923@cleveland.freenet.edu (So now you listen, 'cause I'm omniscient)
			      _______________________							     /  ___________________(_)				
			    /  /\__________________							   /  /_/________________(_)				
			  /______________________							  \____________________(_)				
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: jeff@visix.com (Jeff Barr)
Subject: Re: WANTED: Ted Nelson's "Computer Lib / Dream Machines"
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1992 16:33:45 GMT
Organization: Visix Software Inc., Reston, VA

Jonathan Levine says:

> If you have (or know of) a copy of "Computer Lib / Dream Machines"
> by Ted Nelson that's languishing on a shelf and needs a good home,
> I'm willing to pay a reasonable price for it.

No way no how!  This was the second computer book I ever bought, and
even though my copy is now thoroughly worn and I have not looked at it
in years it still brings back many fond memories every time I see it
on my shelf.

As long as you are searching, there is an extremely limited edition
that went out without all of the pages.  This edition is _described_
in the official edition.

Jeff;

\\\ Jeff Barr      \\\	  "If you reinvent the square wheel, you 
/// Visix Software ///     will not benefit when someone else
\\\ 703.758.2740   \\\	   rounds off the corners."
/// jeff@visix.com ///	  		-- Henry Spencer



Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: mjones@fenway.aix.kingston.ibm.com (Mike Jones)
Subject: Re: IBMs true monsters?
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 92 03:08:42 GMT
Organization: IBM T. J. Watson Research
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL3

tspencer@pilot.njin.net (Thomas Spencer IV) writes:
: d40937@boole (Jean Yves Desbiens)  wrote:
: >Do any of you know anything about IBM's very big mainframes,
: >at our school they upgraded one they had for about 15 years and
: >it cost millions to do it. I think the model of the computer is 3090
: >( please correct me ) and it runs the MVS operating system that can
: >create virtual machines
:    It is VM that creates the Virtual Machines.  You can then run
: another OS in each of the virtual machines, either another VM, or a
: CMS session, or even AIX/370 (Non-native Unix for 360 and 370 arch. 

Naaah, AIX/370 is obsolete. We now have AIX/ESA, which is OSF/1 based and
runs either native or under VM.

   Mike Jones  |  AIX/ESA Development  |  mjones@donald.aix.kingston.ibm.com

Point 2: Adopt the new philosophy. We are in a new economic age. Western
management must awaken to the challenge, must learn their responsibilities,
and take on leadership for change.
	- W. Edwards Deming, "Out of the Crisis"