From: jgalley@us.oracle.com (Jon Galley)
Newsgroups: talk.abortion
Subject: RE: ALL ARGUMENTS FOR PRO-CHOICE REFUTED HERE!
Date: 5 Oct 92 20:14:53 GMT

WITH RESPECT TO:

From: ss1@kepler.unh.edu
Subject: ALL ARGUMENTS FOR PRO-CHOICE REFUTED HERE!


I usually do not get involved with the melee that constitutes talk.abortion.
However, I feel that I must respond to the aforementioned posting.  To your
credit you have been rather civil, and I hope that you are not fried by
those who's views on this supercharged topic differ from yours.  In turn
I will attempt to be civil, and ask that those who support your views
extend to me the same courtesy.  I am not going to play a semantics game,
and I will try to restate your intent rather than the letter of what you
have said.

It would appear that you have done some ground work before your posting
as evident from the many sources you quote, I wish I were as prepared.
I like your marginalization of the salient point. Divide and conquer is
a very powerful technique.  I must also praise your choice of indirection
as an argument style.  If I were as prepared I would also present my
opinions camouflaged by my research.  It is one of the best ways I know to
have opinion accepted as fact.  Unfortunately I feel that opinion rather
than fact does constitute the bulk of your work.

Much of your argument is based on your opinion that we grapple with
the life and/or rights of a person.  As you might expect, I reject that
and it is my opinion that we are dealing with a potential not the
actual.  We could argue this at nauseam, but you have your opinion, I
mine.  I am not going to ask you to change yours and I doubt that you
could sway me.  It is my opinion that our differing views is what CHOICE
is all about.

For me there is only one salient point:

PEOPLE HAVE THE RIGHT TO CONTROL THEIR OWN BODIES!

Specific to this, It is my opinion that the rights of the woman supercede
the importance of a potential person.  I feel it would be just as wrong
for me to try to FORCE you to not have liposuction if that was your wish.

Let me address your rebuttal as best I can.  You question or state....

1. A woman should have a choice.

  To give birth or have her child killed?
   - Your premise that potential = actual
  When a woman conceives, she becomes a mother.
   - Your opinion
  She will eventually regret that choice (abortion).
   - Your opinion
  Quote from Susan Carpenter McMillan
   - Her opinion
  Quote from Deuteronomy
   - I question the relevance

2.  In the case of rape.

  Conception from criminal rape is rare.
   - still it does happen, as does conception from incest.
  Should conception occur, abortion is not advisable.
   - Your opinion
  A child does not deserve to die for its father's crime.
   - Your premise that potential = actual
  Abortion is likely to be a second traumatic experience for the victim.
   - I agree, but I argue the trauma comes from confrontations with
     representatives of organizations like Operation Rescue.
  Abortion instills the memory of infanticide.
   - Your opinion
  Abortion is like rape, both are violent acts against innocent victims.
   - Your premise that potential = actual

3.  To reduce illegal back-alley abortions.

  85-90% of illegal abortions in America were performed by doctors.
   - I find that rather hard to swallow.  Do you have a source?
  "CHILD AND FAMILY" Vs "Planned Parenthood"
   - I question the relevance and bias of statistics from the early 60's
  More women are injured by abortion today than ever before.
   - Your opinion?
   - What about the percentage of injuries?  Down I would hazard.

4.  To prevent child abuse.

  Abortion is itself the ultimate form of child abuse.
   - Your premise that potential = actual
  Following Roe vs. Wade, the cases of child abuse in America rose 500%
   - correlation Vs. causation
  Planned Parenthood kills 100,000 children in their own U.S. clinics annually
   - Your premise that potential = actual
  Most child abusers wanted their children.
   - Your point???
  A correlation does exist between abuse and abortion.
   - correlation does not imply causation!
   - The doctor's statements are speculative at best.

5.  To save relationships.

  70% of relationships end within one month of an abortion.
   - perhaps this is the whole point.  I could just as easily argue
     this for my case!
  75% of male respondents had persistent nightmares.
   - Your point???
   - It is her body!  How many woman have nightmares about an unwanted
     pregnancy!

6.  A woman has a "right" to control her own body.

  Yes, but not another individual's body, which the unborn child surely is.
   - Your premise that potential = actual
  Genetically, mother and baby are separate from conception.
   - I would hope so!
   - I intentionally removed "individuals" from the statement.  If you
     reinsert it then it becomes the doctor's premise like yours
  A woman best controls her body by protecting her baby's sanctuary
   - Your opinion

7,8 ,9.  To prevent possible suicide. Relive stress.  For mental health.

  Abortion causes suicide.
   - correlation Vs. causation
   - I argue that pregnancy introduces the threat of suicide.
   - How many women did not kill themselves because abortion was an option?
  Those whom abortion is considered justified on psychiatric grounds
  have the highest risk of post-abortion psychiatric disorders.
   - does that surprise you?

10. To relieve women of unwanted pregnancies

  Clinic counselors withhold information about the impact of abortion.
   - Your opinion
  An "unwanted child" does not exist.
   - Your opinion
   - Say what????
  Several American families desire each child available for adoption
   - Your opinion
   - I can tell you that this is simply NOT true.  People are not
     lining up to adopt AIDS infected crack babies.  I wish it were
     true, but it is not.

11. The fetus is mere tissue or only uterine in content.

  A preborn child is very human.
   - genetically yes.
  His sole needs are nutrition and time to grow.
   - Your opinion
  All bodily systems are working.
   - Though not sustaining
  Time of birth can not be controlled by mother.
   - Your point???

12, 13.  Abortion is safer than childbirth.

  Medical research considers abortion to be serious surgery
   - So is heart bypass.
  Risk increase with time into pregnancy.
   - Your point???
  The younger the patient and the further along, the greater the risk
   - Your point???
  Pregnancy at 12 does not appear to be inherently high risk.
   - I am skeptical.
   - How about emotional risk.

14.  Abortion is permitted only in early months of pregnancy.

  America is the only developed nation to allow end of term abortions.
   - Your point?
  Abortion can never outgrow its pagan heritage.
   - Your opinion
   - Other forms of medicine have.

15.  A human fetus cannot feel pain.

  But indeed it can.
   - So can ameba.

16.  The child may be handicapped or deformed.

  Does abortion correct God's mistakes?
   - Your point?

17, 18.  To control population and food supply and save taxpayer's money.

  Please do not insult me!

19.  An unborn child has no rights.

  Rights can be transferred to an unborn.
   - I can do the same for my pet fish.

jon -
*****
Pro-choice does not mean pro-abortion, it means pro-choice!
It is your body, it is your choice!
*****
Newsgroups: talk.abortion