From: giao@informix.com (Giao Tien Vu)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.vietnamese
Subject: Re: Reply to Giao Tien Vu
Date: 12 Aug 92 18:38:56 GMT
Organization: Informix Software, Inc.

In article <1992Aug11.165222.2828@kpc.com> garrick@kpc.com (Garrick Le) writes:
>
>trib@trib.EBay.Sun.COM wrote:
>>>In article <1992Aug10.181534.14088@kpc.com> garrick@kpc.com (Garrick Le) writes:
>>>
>> deleted.
>>>
>>>As stated already in my previous posting,I will not continue to partake in this
>>>discussion since it is too divisive and controversial.Still,IMHO,if embargo is to
>>>be lifted,with the kind of corruption in astronomical proportion existent in VN,
>>>who would pocket the major portion of international aid and investment?
>>>I think the answer should be obvious to everyone.
>>>
>>>It is sad to see some people have so limited a vision,yet proudly proclaimed
>>>their love for their fellow countrymen.Is it love or is it just hypocrisy?
>>
>>I could have answer your earlier post point-by-point but since you mentioned
>>that you don't want to discuss this topic anymore, I decided not to.
>>In this post, I have to response because I resent your last statement.
>>It applies better to you. 
> 
>  If you quote me ,please do not leave out other relevant words,would ya?
>Ta^y Do^.c.
>  Remember Giao Tien Vu claimed that "No ideology can ever kill a population.
>It's disaster that kills." That is another basis for qualifying him as a
>"visionary and knowledgeable person".  How soon they forgot why they came here.
>Have not we seen how destructive and disastrous communism have been to this
>world? What they did to the Vietnamese people by burying thousands of innocent
>people alive in Te^'t Ma^.u Tha^n (Hue^'),killing approximately 50,000 people
>by labeling these poor souls rich landlords ,imprisoning millions of people
>in re_education camps under sub_human conditions when they took over in 1975
>are truly horrifying and unforgiveable.Now tell me how "good" this communism
>has been to VN.I certainly do not consider it an ideology anyway since it has
>too many flaws,to say it is an ideology is indeed a misnomer.
>  This is why I consider Giao Tien Vu one with a limited vision at best since
>he does not realize how damaging communism has been to our homeland.

I think that you totally missed the point (I don't claim to be a visionary,
but I have to say this) by interpreting the statement "kill a population"
literally as killing many people.  "Kill" is used here as "totally destroy and
decimate."  Please don't also interpret "disaster" as the literal natural
disaster.  The disaster that I used was the deterioration of human moral
values and the cultural bind that kept a people together.

>Let me pose another question ,why did we all come here?For what reason?
>Mainly for economic reasons?I surely think not! Maybe it applies to some
>people,unfortunately.We probably know who they are already.

I think that you'd better not getting into this argument.

>  As far as saying that it is hypocrisy when people presented their view
>which supports lifting the embargo,I 'd like to take that back.IMHO,
>they do love their country but their love perhaps is misguided.

Thanks for the sensitive use of "perhaps."  Basically, both
of us are discussing using the existing data, but our interpretations are
very different.  The question about who is misguided will probably never
be answered because life does not let us experiment.

>
>>
>>For example, your vision is really limited to think that the major of
>>international aid and investment would be pocketed by govt. officials in VN.
>>Do you really think that the international communities and foreign corporations
>>are ignorant of the corruption situations in VN?  Don't you think that they
>>would have proper plans to administer aids and/or to ensure that their
>>investment be protected?   Embargo or not, no one is going to invest or
>>give aids to a country if he knows he will be taken advantage of.
>>
>>Ta^y -Do^.c
>
>  Certainly foreign companies will know how to protect their investment,but
>the ones they employed (the Vietnamese workers) will stand to benefit
>very little at best since they have to bribe the gov't to get the job and
>keep it.All their sweats and labors would result in something close to zilch.

That's pure speculation.  How do you know that it would happen?  Most of the
HO people I have talked to in the last few years have one common agreement:
life has been better in the last few years.  And that was without lifting the
embargo.

If you have read the news lately, the foreign governments are pressuring
the Vietnamese government to fully implement the free market.  What does it
mean?  It means that the employees can be free to work for any company that
they want to.  Without going through the Vietnamese government, without
paying the bribes that you're afraid of.  Foreign businesses are not
stupid.  They know that unless they get the Vietnamese government off the
backs of the workers, they would not get an efficient workforce.  They
know that if the bribings continue, they will have to pay the bribes
themselves.

>As far as international aid goes,with the bureacracy of VN,the international
>organizations have little control over how it is going to be distributed.
>We know too well who the boss is in VN,don't we?

There's always problem initially.  Once the international organizations
are established in Vietnam, good luck to any effort of the Vietnamese
government to control the aids without having all the aids being
withdrawn!

>
>  I really wanted to stop this thread but I can't help elaborating further!
>Look at what happened in China as a good example.After all these years of
>foreign aids and economic assistance,even being the most favorite trade
>nation granted by the Bush administration,how is red China doing? How
>democratic has it become?Tienamen (spelling ?) Square is the most eloquent
>example of the state of democracy in China.Just a bloodbath of inspired
>students and people whose wishes were really simple ,one lots of us overhere
>have taken for granted ,namely democracy.
>The thoughts of it make me cringe,but VN might as well have another
>Tienamen Square in the future.I honestly hope that we will have a
>better future than that,but as of now,the situation in VN seems
>very pathetic at best.
>

But, you cannot deny that the living standard of the Chinese people inside
China has improved markedly.  My main criticism of what happened at
Tiananmen was that the students wanted to move too far too fast.  They
forced the Chinese Communists into a corner.  Remember that Zhao Ziyang had
to beg the students to stop demonstrating before things went too far?
That scene was pitiful.  Here was the man who supposedly was the most
powerful person in China almost in tears.  Chai Ling, a student leader,
actually recalled that the more moderate students were ready to back down.
Yet the radicals were pressing for even more pressure on the Chinese
government.  Obviously, that was a mistake.  The end was a tragedy.  Zhao
Ziyang lost his job.  Many students were killed.

The Chinese government's action was drastic and shameful.  However,
note that no government would allow something like that to happen.
Sooner or later, the government would clamp down on the demonstration
before it went out of control.  In Vietnam, the South Vietnamese soldiers
fired upon the Buddhist crowd in 1965, killing hundreds of people.  In
the USA, the police and national guard would come and arrest (not shoot
with live bullets - with the exception of Kent State) the demonstrators.
A more democratic government would change policies to reflect what the
people want, but it will not allow a rebellion (which Tiananmen is).

I do hope that a Tiananmen would never happen in Vietnam.  We have had
enough revolutions.  All revolutions turned out to be disappointments.
It's time to try evolution for a change.

Giao