From: jodar@aludra.usc.edu (Nicholas Jodar)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.islam
Subject: Re: Question about Baha'i
Keywords: Baha'i vs. Islam
Date: 8 Nov 92 16:04:29 GMT
Article-I.D.: romeo.721238668


[General Disclaimer:]
PLEASE NOTE!:  I AM NOT A SCHOLAR!  I'M JUST AN IGNORANT COLLEGE
STUDENT WHO READS A LOT. :-)

----------------------------

In article <20OCT199213043373@romeo.caltech.edu> chai@m.cs.uiuc.edu (Ian Chai) writes:

>Asalamulaikum.

Wa Alaikum Assalamu, Wa Rahmatullah....

>I have somewhat recently been reading about the Baha'i and have some
>questions about how they are to be viewed by Muslims.
>
>1. Are Baha'is Ahli Al-Kitab (People of the Book)?

Not according to their confession....

>2. Are they considered to commit Shirk (violating Monotheism)? They
>   accept Jesus as a Prophet, but also as the Son of God, but they mean
>   a different thing from the Christians by the "Son of God" or "God"
>   -- they don't mean that he is Allah s.w.t. but that he is a "mirror
>   perfectly reflecting Allah" as is also Muhammad s.a.w.

Allah (SWT) states clearly that Jesus (AS) is 'only a man' in the
Qur'an.  How can any man 'perfectly reflect' Allah (SWT) when our
minds cannot even grasp the full Majesty and Might of Allah (AWJ)?

If you compare a single grain of sand with the entire known
universe, this is how much bigger the first heaven is compared to
the Dunya (universe).  The second heaven is that much bigger than
the first heaven, and so on, right up to the seventh heaven,
which is that much bigger than the sixth.

Now imagine comparing the seventh heaven to that first grain of
sand!  You could say that Allah (AWJ) is like the seventh heaven
compared to that grain of sand, but Allah (SWT) is so much bigger 
than EVERYTHING PUT TOGETHER that even THAT comparison does Him 
injustice.  Allah (SWT) created everything that exists, without
even exerting Himself, and the entirety of Creation trembles in
acknowledgement of His Power.

Except men, of course, who go so far as to spurn Him....

>3. Currently on soc.religion.bahai there's a thread about reconciling
>   Islam an Christianity. One major sticking point is the crucifixion
>   and resurrection -- the Bible says "Christ both died, and rose, and
>   revived" (Romans 14:9) 

The Bible also says:

'Remember that Jesus Christ of the Seed of David was raised from
the dead according to MY gospel.' (II Timothy 2:8) 
[Spoken by Paul, emphasis mine.]

'And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, [specifically, a
'false prophet'], shall be put to death ... ' (Deuteronomy 13:5)

'And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be put
to death, and thou hang him on the tree [eg. crucify him]:  His
body shall not remain all night upon the tree but thou shalt in
any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of
God;) that thy land be not defiled, which the Lord thy God
giveth thee for an inheritance.' (Deuteronomy 21:22-23)

Basically, if anybody bothers to read their Bible, they will find
that PAUL is the ONLY ONE who preaches the resurrection and
divinity of Jesus (AS).  Paul's teachings contradict the rest of 
the Bible, so one might well ask who is lying, Paul or everyone
else?

We can answer that question by looking at Paul's own writings.
Notice how Paul give three DIFFERENT accounts of his 'conversion'?  
If he can't get his facts straight about something that
supposedly happened to him personally, how can we trust what he
says about a man he never met?

There are two reasons for rejection of Islam:

1)	Ignorance;
2)	A Closed Mind.

This is why there is no need for 'preachers' in Islam.  The Truth
speaks for itself and needs no argumentation.

>   while the Quran says "and they did not kill
>   him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so" (Women
>   4:157) -- and the Baha'i say that this is due to a misinterpretation
>   on the part of Muslims, pointing out the disagreement between Muslim
>   scholars, etc. and saying that Isa p.b.u.h. *did* die on the cross
>   but that the Jews were simply not responsible for Allah let them, or
>   that they were only able to kill his body but not his soul, etc. (For
>   details see soc.religion.bahai.) What is the Muslim response to
>   this? 

Nevermind the muslim response, how about the intelligent one?

The Qur'an basically says that Jesus (AS) was neither crucified,
nor did he die, and that he was taken up ALIVE to Allah (SWT),
the same way Enoch and Elijah were taken up.  This is what the
words say.  If Jesus (AS) DID die on the cross, then this
contradicts the words of Allah (SWT):  'Nay, Allah raised him up
unto himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise....'[4:158]
Allah (SWT) doesn't say 'the Jews' didn't kill him, Allah says
'THEY' didn't kill him.

Also take into account the witness of Barnabas, the only Apostle
to write of what happened.  He says that the person crucifed was
'Judas Iscariot,' who was 'transformed ... so like Jesus in
appearance' that even the Apostles were fooled for the time
being.

If you want to be stubborn, take the words of Jesus (AS)
according to the remaining four canonical gospels.  Jesus (AS)
himself is supposed to have said that a man dies 'only once,' and
then becomes spirit 'even as the angels.'  It is quite well known
that angels neither eat, have any bodily deficiencies, nor do
they fear death or disclosure.  Yet the gospels in today's Bible 
would have us believe that Jesus (AS) suffered from all of these.

So who do you believe?  Well, that's up to you....  Note,
however, that the Gospel of Barnabas doesn't contradict
itself (unlike the other gospels), nor does it contradict the 
Qur'an (which is also free from this defect).  Also, both 
books are confirmed by all archeological and historical 
evidence uncovered thus far.  

The Bible itself is so full of contradictions and errors that 
I am still compiling a simple list, after two years of work....

>   Is it permissible under orthodox Islam to accept Isa p.b.u.h.'s
>   crucifixion and resurrection without accepting his diety?

I think you can answer that one for yourself.... :-)

Assalamu Alaikum,

-AQ

[I beg Allah's forgiveness for my weakness and insufficiency in ]
['His' service, and I ask for his protection from Shaitan and   ]
[from my own Desires.  None can protect me except Allah.  If I  ]
[have made any errors, I beg Allah to bring them to my attention]
[so that they may be corrected.  If I have made none, then it is]
[only through the Grace of Allah and all praise is due only to  ]
['Him.'                                                         ]