HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jfjones@isrc.sandia.gov (James F. Jones)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: boots
Date: 2 Sep 92 19:03:59 GMT
Organization: Sandia National Labs, Org. 1600, Albq., NM

For you Asolo fans, you should try the new models.  My old SuperSofts
started blowing out so I replaced them with the new 101's about
a month ago.  Boy what a difference!!!.  The shell's upper tongue
is a really soft rubbery material instead of a hard two part shin
banger.  The last two lace holes for the inner part are grommets instead
of those plastic eyelets that keep pulling out.  The entire shell
seems softer (maybe my imagination).  Besides the color is really
neat:-). I used them on Gannet a couple of weeks ago and liked them
better than I ever liked my SuperSofts.

Note:  Regarding the fit, one of our local boot experts says that
Asolo's run narrow.  That's why I like them (skinny feet).

--- Red
 
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: nww@cbnewsd.cb.att.com (neil.w.weber)
Subject: Re: Climbing near or in Illinois
Organization: AT&T
Distribution: il
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 12:19:59 GMT

Devil's Lake is an excellent top-rope area.  With the crowds, every
climb is set up, so you can just walk up to a climb, ask permission
to climb it, and do it.  Devil's Lake is in Baraboo, Wi.

Close to Devil's Lake (within 30 minutes) is Girbraltar (sp?).  This
is mostly a lead area because the climbs are longer.  Some bolts,
mostly cracks.  Sandstone.

Another area is the Mississippi Palisades in Savanna (sp?), Illinois.
The climbs are short compared to Devil's Lake and there aren't as
many as there are at the Lake.  People top-rope and lead there.  There
is only one bolted sport route (5.10b I think).

For Southern Illinois climbing, the best is Jackson Falls which is 30
minutes south of Marion in the Shawnee Forest Preserve.  There was a
write up in Rock & Ice a while ago.  Most climbs are easily top
ropeable.  The rest are on free standing blocks with no easy access
other than the existing routes.  This is a very good sporting climbing
area too.

I have the guide books for all of these areas.  If you want further
information, directions, etc. feel free to ask.

Neil Weber
neil.w.weber@att.com
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: AS.MSW@forsythe.stanford.edu (Marc Whitney)
Subject: Re: Misleading News Reports
Organization: Stanford University, California, USA
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1992 20:12:23 GMT

In article <1992Aug25.183237.13249@nas.nasa.gov>,
eugene@wilbur.nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya) writes:
>
>Uncle Fred (the skiing family doctor), the pathologist once talked about
>this.
>1) Natural causes implies a "natural" death.  A person given the statistics
>        will last about 70 years (with a considerably variance).  Deaths
>        of course are catalogued, and if you approach that age and die
>        of a "cause" which is catalouged, then you died of a natural cause.
>        Also try "artificial causes." E.g., natural: stroke, heart disease.
>        Falling off a cliff might be "natural causes."  An amazing number
>        of people slip and fall in showers.  A coroner must decide.

What if a bear eats you?  Wouldn't that be a "natural" death?  Would
it make a difference if the bear devours you in an officially
designated Wilderness Area as opposed to say on the front deck of a
Curry Co. facility?

How about lightening, rockfall or avalance?

<grin>

PS to ENM:  Hows the ratio?
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: AS.MSW@forsythe.stanford.edu (Marc Whitney)
Subject: Re: emergency techniques (was Re: Cathedral Pk. Accident, Yosemite)
Organization: Stanford University, California, USA
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 15:52:32 GMT

In article <1992Aug25.225756.18576@microsoft.com>,
timha@microsoft.com (Tim Harris) writes:
>>>
>>> PS (in response to another article):  Most belay devices do provice
>>> dynamic belays.  See the warning letter by Ed Leeper in _Climbing_
>>> regarding the (non-dynamic) GriGri.
>>
>>Could you shortly describe the warning letter of Ed Leeper?
>>
While I understand Leeper's concerns, what with ravenous lawyers
inhabiting the world, I'm not that convinced of this whole static
vs. dynamic belay device business.  I held a number of substantial
falls including at least one that came close to the infamous "worst
case" scenario.  In every case, the belay device, a sticht plate,
was in the locked off configuration.  The falls were hard enough to
lift me violently off the ground to the extent that there was a very
small amount of slack in the anchor.  I'm quite sure that there was
no slippage in the belay device.  My question is:  so how would this

For what it is worth, I don't think a body belay with the brake hand
in locked off position is very dynamic either.  A number of years
ago I went through the routine where you have to catch a 120 lb
block of concrete after about a to feet free fall.  I don't recall
any slippage or rope burn.  This isn't to say it wan't a shocking
experience -- it felt like being slapped across the small of the
back and upper hips by 2x4.
From: t9613aa@sun1.LRZ-Muenchen.DE (Karl Wild)
Subject: Wolfgang Guellich is dead
Organization: Leibniz-Rechenzentrum, Muenchen (Germany)
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 06:36:20 GMT


Wolfgang Guellich died after a car accident last Monday in Germany!



Karl

Karl Wild    Institut fuer Landtechnik   TU Munich    
t9613aa@sun1.lrz-muenchen.de
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: cptully@med.unc.edu (Christopher P. Tully,Pathology,62699)
Subject: Re: Joining of Rappel Ropes
Reply-To: cptully@med.unc.edu
Organization: UNC-CH School of Medicine
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 14:39:22 GMT

In article 86G@cup.hp.com, morrison@cup.hp.com (Bobbie_Morrison) writes:
{removed...}
>Assuming the ropes the same diameter I personally like the Double Fisherman.
>Its fairly smooth, to reduce catching while being pulled down, and its
>easy to quickly check visually for correctness.
>
>Even though I like it, I rarely use it because I generally rappel on ropes
>of different sizes.  When a climb requires a full rope rappel we usually
>carry a "Zip-line", 7 mm static rope (its lighter).  I tried the 
>Double Fisherman knot on it at first but the big difference in the size of 
>each half of the knot made me nervous.  So now we actually loop the ropes
>together through bights and tie 2 figure eights back on to itself. 
>Its terrible for hanging up on things but it makes me feel better about
>the little rope.
>
>--Bobbie Morrison

Actually, if you look at how the double fisherman is constructed, it is
just as good for different size ropes.  You are tying knots around the
opposing ropes which butt against each other.your only danger is if the
ropes are so drastically different in size that one of the knots will
not stay tight around the other rope.  Of course, if you feel safer
using figure eights, PLEASE do! - you are more likely to tie the knots
correctly if you are more comfortable with them.

Another question (to everybody) if you know you are going to be doing a
lot of climbing that requires a full length rappel, why not use double
ropes (say 9mm in stead of 11mm) and not have to carry a second rope
just for rappeling?  Or am I completely off base?  Are double ropes not
good for rappeling on?

---Chris
*********************************************************************
Christopher P. Tully				<cptully@med.unc.edu>
Univ. of North Carolina - Chapel Hill		1122 Vic Charles Dr.
Department of Pathology				Raleigh, NC 27606
CB# 7525			work: (919) 966-2699
Chaple Hill, NC 27599		hone: (919) 851-8816
*********************************************************************
 All opinions above are Copywrite <current year> Christoper P. Tully

Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: jahn@guinness.Idbsu.EDU (Greg Jahn)
Subject: Re: Sunscreen which is not greasy
Reply-To: jahn@guinness.idbsu.edu
Organization: BSU - Data Center
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 20:29:12 GMT

In article <1992Aug28.164957.10738@nas.nasa.gov>, 
eugene@wilbur.nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya) writes:
|>Ken, Who's trying to win points?
|>Gawd!  Back to competitive climbing, go have some fun this weekend.
|>Maybe we need a body belay FAQ....
|>A lot of people don't like the Sierra Club (or certain parts inside it).
|>

OK, I HAVE to ask ... 

Does FAQ stand for Frequently Asked Questions, or does is
really stand for Frequently Argued Questions?

Factious Assinine Quibbles?

--
Greg Jahn, Boise State Univ.|"In this selfish age, public-spirited
/ jahn@guinness.idbsu.edu / | acts were left to the individual, and
/ dosjahn@idbsu.bitnet    / | what could the individual do on his
/ (208)385-3891.thephone  / | own?"        - Adolfo Bioy Casares


Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Newsgroups: rec.climbing

> |> 
> |> Hey, we need to come up with a grease rating system.
> |> 	G0 No grease.
> |> 	G1 (La Cosita, right)
> |> 	G2 ...
> |> 	etc.
> |> 
> 
> You're really onto something here Eugene!
 
Agreed!
 
> Whale's Tail Mantle (Eldo) - G3

This was the FIRST problem I thought of when I read Eugene's suggestions.
An artist/climber friend of mine used to call this "The Esoteric Mantel".

The idea of thinking like Dr. OW scares me.  At least I still know enough to
stay away from any crack bigger than my fist.

Mort
From: parilis@gandalf.rutgers.edu (Gary Parilis)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: Cathedral Pk. Accident, Yosemite
Date: 1 Sep 92 15:50:34 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

In article <1992Aug18.161623.3344@morrow.stanford.edu> AS.MSW@forsythe.stanford.edu (Marc Whitney) writes:

> In article <1992Aug18.012617.21434@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU>,
> jmorton@euler.Berkeley.EDU (John Morton) writes:


> >At a time when most belays were on ledges I was taught that
> >the body position was very important in holding falls.  The
> >anchor was always lined up with the potential direction of pull,
> >something which is made difficult with harnesses which have no
> >anchor points in back.

My harness is a Black Diamond Bod Harness...  It has a loop in back
that seems pretty sturdy, but I've never trusted it as an anchor point.

Is that its purpose?  I've always used it for gear and wondered if it
was meant to be an anchor point...  Is it?
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: bruceg@Cadence.COM (Bruce Gustifson)
Subject: Re: Known details of Cathedral accident (additions/changes) to Morton
Organization: Cadence Design Systems, Inc.
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 17:07:58 GMT

In article <1992Aug19.211037.7498@morrow.stanford.edu> AS.MSW@forsythe.stanford.edu (Marc Whitney) writes:
>In article <1992Aug19.181307.27758@nas.nasa.gov>,
>A decently placed friend or TCU *alone* should hold any force a
>second could normally generate.  Two of the equalized should be very
>strong indeed.  Since they were found intact, one can assume that
>they pulled.  This is something that shouldn't happen.  The modes I
>can think of that might permit this include:  placing them behind an
>"expando flake", using an excessivly flaring crack, using a dirty
>gravelly crack, using a crack that is too wide allowing the cams to
>invert.  Thus if the belay stance is definately known, examining it
>for each of these conditions could shed some light.
  Along this line, I was wondering how people feel about the solidness
of good nut placements vs. good active camming placements. I tend to
trust a good nut placement more, but not to the extreme that
my partner does (I've never hardly even seen him place a cam). 

************************************************************************
"Would you believe it if you     |  Pepsi ad campaign in Thailand;
saw it with your own eyes?"      | Come alive with the Pepsi Generation
   Asked the woman               |    In Thai translates to:
"That depends"                   | Pepsi will raise your ancestors
    Replied I                    |	from the dead.
***********************************************************************
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: allen%asylum.cs.utah.edu@cs.utah.edu (Allen Sanderson)
Subject: Re: Joining of Rappel Ropes
Date: 28 Aug 92 10:27:15 MDT
Organization: University of Utah CS Dept

>In article morrison@cup.hp.com (Bobbie_Morrison) writes:
>{removed...}
>>Assuming the ropes the same diameter I personally like the Double Fisherman.

>>Even though I like it, I rarely use it because I generally rappel on ropes
>>of different sizes.  When a climb requires a full rope rappel we usually
>>carry a "Zip-line", 7 mm static rope (its lighter).  I tried the 
>>Double Fisherman knot on it at first but the big difference in the size of 
>>each half of the knot made me nervous.
>
In article cptully@med.unc.edu writes:
>Actually, if you look at how the double fisherman is constructed, it is
>just as good for different size ropes.  You are tying knots around the
>opposing ropes which butt against each other.your only danger is if the
>ropes are so drastically different in size that one of the knots will
>not stay tight around the other rope.
>
>Another question (to everybody) if you know you are going to be doing a
>lot of climbing that requires a full length rappel, why not use double
>ropes (say 9mm in stead of 11mm) and not have to carry a second rope
>just for rappeling?  Or am I completely off base?  Are double ropes not
>good for rappeling on?


I think someone mentioned this but the Double Fisherman's knot is pain
to untie.  I use a figure 8 knot in a similar as you would tie a water
knot. Also, double ropes are great, for going up and down.  I perfer
a 100m rope rather two 50m ropes.  Then you never have to worry about
the knot.  Unfortunately though, my 100m rope (aka the pig) was buried in
Alaska this spring.  The other option is two use twin ropes (different
than double) which are littler but should not be alone.

Allen R. Sanderson

Salt Lake City, Oootah


"I though you brought the rope"
	A climber to their partner after hiking in 10 miles.
From: bobh@fuji.hwr.arizona.edu (Bob Harrington)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: Joining of Rappel Ropes
Date: 29 Aug 92 02:48:33 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: University of Arizona -- Tucson, AZ

In article <1992Aug29.001739.25317@nas.nasa.gov> eugene@wilbur.nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya) writes:
>In article <1992Aug28.102715.16677@hellgate.utah.edu>
>allen%asylum.cs.utah.edu@cs.utah.edu (Allen Sanderson) writes:
>>I think someone mentioned this but the Double Fisherman's knot is pain
>>to untie.
>
>How critical is your time to untie them and how do you work to untie them?
>I've not had problems.  I work on one of the external loops first.
>Typically takes about 30 secs to undo.
>

I've got another way to join rappell ropes, the main virtue of which is that
it's easy to untie. It's especially good for wet ropes where the knot can
really get welded:

Tie a figure eight knot in *both* ropes, each with about a 1.5 ft tail.
Thread the tail of each rope through the knot in the other rope, giving
you *two* figure eight bends, right next to each other:

 one rope ****************************
					{knot}       {knot}
					------------------------------------- other rope

It has a real reassuring look too. Obviously, it's relatively prone to 
getting hung up. 

>I hate climbing up on a failed retrieval (I think Hal did the last one for
>me on the Beak Peak).
>
>>I perfer a 100m rope rather two 50m ropes.  Then you never have to worry about
>>the knot.
>
>I like the ropes which have one pattern for 1/2 the rope and a different
>pattern for the rest.  No need for a middle mark.  Two 11mms ago I got one
>at REI.  The current set of double 9s I have are approaching retirement.
>That's the biggest problem for me using 9s, they can't take the abrasion as
>well because of their smaller diameter.

This has been my experience too. I would use double 8.8s routinely, except
they wear out too fast. Has anyone out there used enough different brands
of nine-mil to have an opinion as to which is the most durable? I've had
bad luck with Black Diamond 8.8s. After a few months, there's a hole in
the sheath, even though the sheath is not very worn elsewhere.

>It's more distressing with a thinner rope when you see abrasion dropping
>little flecks of nylon on a modest edge.  Rockfall is also worrisome.

I think double nines make rockfall less worrisome -- you have twice as
many ropes that have to be chopped before all your ropes are chopped.

>
>>"I though you brought the rope"
>>	A climber to their partner after hiking in 10 miles.
>
>Sheridan Anderson cartoon.  Great cartoon.
>
>--eugene miya, NASA Ames Research Center, eugene@orville.nas.nasa.gov
>  Resident Cynic, Rock of Ages Home for Retired Hackers
>  {uunet,mailrus,other gateways}!ames!eugene
>Second Favorite email message: Returned mail: Cannot send message for 3 days

And the first?

>A Ref: Mathematics and Plausible Reasoning, vol. 1, G. Polya

Bob Harrington
bobh@fuji.hwr.arizona.edu
From: klaus@wheat-chex.ai.mit.edu (Klaus B. Biggers)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: double 9s was Joining of Rappel Ropes
Date: 31 Aug 92 19:26:11 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: MIT Artificial Intelligence Laboratory

In article <1992Aug29.070142.3366@nas.nasa.gov> eugene@wilbur.nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya) writes:
>In article <1992Aug29.024833.19448@organpipe.uug.arizona.edu>
>bobh@fuji.hwr.arizona.edu (Bob Harrington) writes:
>
>>>Second Favorite email message: Returned mail: Cannot send message for 3 days
>>And the first?
>
>An error message produced by the sendmail program which goes:
>"Max Hop Count >30 exceeded.  With 30+ lines of header error messages

etc. etc.

>Also popular with people at Ames is "Device is not a typewriter."

One of my favorites is when you boot an IBM PC clone (with at least some
of the BIOS's) without a keyboard attached:

Keyboard Error
Press <F1> to resume.

Now that's error recovery for you.

-klaus                                              klaus@ced.utah.edu

				DO NOT EAT
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: allen%asylum.cs.utah.edu@cs.utah.edu (Allen Sanderson)
Subject: Re: Climbing Rack?
Date: 31 Aug 92 08:56:28 MDT
Keywords: Climbing Rack
Organization: University of Utah CS Dept

In article <1992Aug28.224831.4783@guinness.idbsu.edu> jahn@guinness.idbsu.edu writes:

>Hmm, the obvious just occured to me ( a very rare and cherished thing)
>When a tri-cam gets 'old', ie, the WEBBING on a tri-cam gets old,
>then, what do you do? Can you have the webbing replaced?  Anyone know?


Trango Gear (formerly Lowe) has arranged for Yates Mtnerring to replace
the webbing.  Call Trango and ask them for details.

Allen
From: asatj@acad2.alaska.edu
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: beginner
Date: 31 Aug 92 11:57:56 GMT
Organization: University of Alaska

In article <16852A734.R3TLM@VM1.CC.UAKRON.EDU>, R3TLM@VM1.CC.UAKRON.EDU writes:
> 
>       I'm a beginner of the utmost in this grand adventure referred to
> as climbing and I was wondering if you could e-mail me the names of
> some books that would be good for learning as well as some climbs in
> Ohio that would be good for an amateur.
>  
> Thanks
>  
> Timothy McCollum
>  
Timothy-
  You might try finding some information on Hinckley/Whipps Ledges by calling
the Department of Natural Resources, talking to other climbers, an outdoor club 
at the university or an outdoor shop in Akron.  This park is to the northwest
of Akron.  I climbed there last about 17 years ago and so don't know the status
but I do remember it being a very pleasant place.  I grew up climbing at
Clifton Gorge at Yellow Springs (near Dayton, too far away for you) but I
believe Clifton remains closed to climbing at this time.  Also far away for you
but a wonderful area is Old Man's Cave area in Hocking Hills (southeastern
Ohio) which has a special climbing area outside of the main tourist area.

Alan Julliard
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: uchpcjv@Msu.oscs.montana.edu
Subject: Re: Climbing Rack?
Reply-To: uchpcjv@Msu.oscs.montana.edu
Organization: Montana State University
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1992 00:08:01 GMT

In article <1992Aug29.004105.25781@nas.nasa.gov>, eugene@wilbur.nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya) writes:
>In article <1992Aug28.224831.4783@guinness.idbsu.edu>
>jahn@guinness.idbsu.edu writes:
>>Hmm, the obvious just occured to me ( a very rare and cherished thing)
>>When a tri-cam gets 'old', ie, the WEBBING on a tri-cam gets old,
>>then, what do you do? Can you have the webbing replaced?  Anyone know?
>
>Yes.

But I don't think that's true for Tri-Cams.  I went out to the old Lowe
Factory in Lafayette, CO, and they informed me that they do NOT (as of 1989,
anyway), resling Tri-Cams.  However, anyplace that does bar-tacking could
probably be persuaded to do it for a few bucks per unit.
>THEY are generally pretty good about replacing climbing gear components.
>Just took a #1 Friend back to REI.  One of the springs broke.  Wild Country
>just gave me a new #1.  Had problems with a set of Merrill shoes (had
>only 12 miles on them, wore thru around 7-8 miles): REI made the decision
>on the spot to give me a new pair (or old money to a different boot).
>
>What I don't like is the lack of components so that you can replace some
>of this stuff out in the field.
>
>--eugene miya, NASA Ames Research Center, eugene@orville.nas.nasa.gov
>  Resident Cynic, Rock of Ages Home for Retired Hackers
>  {uunet,mailrus,other gateways}!ames!eugene
>Second Favorite email message: Returned mail: Cannot send message for 3 days
>A Ref: Mathematics and Plausible Reasoning, vol. 1, G. Polya
From: eugene@wilbur.nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: Rope condition questions
Date: 29 Aug 92 00:47:50 GMT
Organization: NAS, NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA

In article <1992Aug28.190939.7203@ac.dal.ca> rclarke@ac.dal.ca writes:
>Is there a rapel device that dosen't twist the rope because I'm getting tired
>of unwinding my rope after every climb I do.

Most any break-bar (can be the backbone of a biner) based assembly.
I'm not personally endorsing commercial break-bars, but others will.

Doesn't take out existing kinks however.  You have to deal with those.
Simple skill to know.  Dangerously simple.

--eugene miya, NASA Ames Research Center, eugene@orville.nas.nasa.gov
  Resident Cynic, Rock of Ages Home for Retired Hackers
  {uunet,mailrus,other gateways}!ames!eugene
Second Favorite email message: Returned mail: Cannot send message for 3 days
A Ref: Mathematics and Plausible Reasoning, vol. 1, G. Polya
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: choy@skorpio.usask.ca
Subject: How strong do you have to be?
Organization: University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Canada
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 22:39:08 GMT

How strong do you have to be to climb a cliff? Do you have to support
yourself a lot with your arms?

Henry Choy
choy@cs.usask.ca
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: bruceb@roadrunner.denver.sgi.com (Bruce Bailey)
Subject: Re: grease
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc.
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 14:28:11 GMT

In article <1992Aug29.013909.27005@nas.nasa.gov>, eugene@wilbur.nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya) writes:
|> Re: grease
|> A film staring John Revolta and Olivia Newton-John.....
|> 

Hey, I'm a star!

Eugene also writes:
|>  So I declare that G ratings should assume
|> no chalk.  Chalk should remove 1 rating.  Okay?
|> 

Interesting.  Sometimes chalk is the difference between possible and
impossible (e.g., Whale's Tail Mantle).  On other greasy sections, it
man seem to make no difference at all, e.g., slimy cracks like at the
crux of Gripper on a hot, sunny day.

|> 
|> I'm still trying to figure out if the scale should be open ended like the
|> Aussies or closed like Gill: if a G-3 starts to get frequently done, then
|> it becomes a G-2....
|> 

Perhaps G3 is too greasy to be humanly possible?

Bruce Bailey (Dr. OW)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing