From: sulkom@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Mark Sulkowski)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Thomas Covenant
Date: 14 Dec 92 02:46:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <1gfojtINN7eg@uwm.edu>, glenne@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Neuromancer ) writes...
>First of all, I do not believe in feeling guilt[y] for anything.  One cannot
>change what one has done in the past.  One can only choose what to do in the
>present.  Torturing yourself for mistakes does neither yourself nor anyone
>else any good.

	Well, the discussion is becoming philosophical, but I'm game.

	I basically agree with you on this point.  However, *some* guilt
is healthy.  The person who *never* feels guilt at hurting someone else
has a psychological problem, IMHO.


>However I believe that the philosophy of "resist not one who is evil"
>is the height of wisdom.  Of course this does not make sense to you or
>most other people because it is incompatible with your values.  

	Please explain the statement "resist not one who is evil."
And please do not presume to tell me what my values are.  :^)


>Humanity througout the ages has believed that being good is synonomous with
>coming out on top.

	Really?  I'm not so sure about this.  I doubt this was universal.


>And so we have all these storytellers lieing to us
>with all of our stories ending with the good guy standing on the throat
>of the bad guy.  Some liars are better than others.  Tolkien was the best
>of them all.  Now of course Tolkien, like all the others believed his 
>lies.  

	Well, Tolkien may possibly have been *mistaken*, but that does not
make him a liar.


>Unfortunately life is not like the wonderful stories that we read.  Life 
>is not fair.  Our attempts at making life fair fail completely in anything
>but making life more complex.  Good guys do not finish first.  Good guys 
>finish last.

	Morality does not guarantee success, but neither does immorality!!!
The point to morality is that it provides an edge on life.  Ultimately,
the trustworthy person ends up happier than the charlatan.  Immoral people
tend to cut themselves off from the rest of society, destroying the
possibility of true happiness.  Immorality is a seductive trap.  It's
the result of short-term thinking and misunderstanding of human nature.
Morality is the result of long-term thinking and a good understanding
of what produces happiness.


>And so what it all boils down to is that you have to choose
>between being good and winning.  Almost universally humanity has chosen
>the latter.  

	I'm not sure what your standard of good is, or what you are
calling good in this context.  I do believe that acting in your own
self-interest is good as long as you don't hurt anybody.  For example,
getting an education is good as long as you don't burglarize someone's
house to get the tuition money.  Extreme altruists claim (falsely) that
ALL self-interest is evil.  That presupposes that all self-interest leads
to the harm of others.  This is demonstrably false.

	Being good and winning are entirely compatible.  Being bad tends
to get you in jail, dead, miserable, or at least without friends.  Being
good and successful means things like getting an education, getting a job or
starting a business, and working hard and honestly to achieve success.
I personally know people who are very successful in life and are the
nicest, sweetest, most moral people around.  They didn't hurt *anybody*
getting to "the top".  There are no guarantees however.  It takes perserverance.
Winning through morality means never having to say you are sorry.

	I'm guessing here, but I'll bet your attitude originally comes from
people like socialists and some religious leaders who tried to convince
others that "all rich people are evil" to prove that "capitalism and
entrepreneurialism are evil".  I know people who believe this tripe.
It's nonsense.  It has kept people from being successful (because they
feel guilty trying, for no good reason) and THAT is the true evil.

> 
>Glenn                                    glenne@csd4.csd.uwm.edu
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien