HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Handgun Ammunition Debate   (Marshall's Cooked Books)
Date: 5 Oct 92 02:19:43 GMT
Organization: Western Washington University


	This would certainly not eliminate the bias in Marshall's data
collection, but it would bring his "percentage" to closer correlate
the "what will happen if a person gets shot with this round"
that his "stopping percentage" is _not_.

Of all his data, the categories are:

a)	one shot failure to stop,
b)	one shot stop
c)	multi shot failure to stop
d)	multi shot stop

Marshall disgards c and d, using b as a percentage of (a+b) as
his "stopping percentage".

However, as c is obviously as bad, or worse than a, one must
include c.  b given as a percentage of (a+b+c) would certainly
be a more realistic "stopping percentage" than merely using (a+b).

If Marshall gives the numbers of c and d in his book, then b/(a+b+c)
can be calculated by a reader of rec.guns and posted here. 

If Marshall's "percentage" already consists of b/(a+b+c), then I
stand corrected.  I haven't read the book, but I get the impression
that c is disgarded along with d.   There is, imo, _no way_ to get
"97%" for 125 gr .357 if c is included.  If I am wrong, show me.

Jim Del Vecchio
From: halk@bnr.ca (Hal (H.V.) Kauffeldt)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Thanks for help on .303 -> .308 Conversion
Date: 2 Oct 92 16:57:37 GMT

Thanks to all those who replied/posted to my earlier request for advice
on my Lee Enfield with a .303 to .308 conversion.

I (unfortunately) have no real history on when the conversion was done
or by whom.  However, it does appear that the comments I've recieved are
right on the mark as to the problem - the bolt face needs to be larger
OR the magazine needs to be modified in some way to allow the shells to
feed properly.  A couple people have mentioned the availability of
modified clips for such guns, which go by the name of "Stirling" (?), so
I guess I'll start looking for them in earnest!

By the way, the gun IS a Mark IV, so there seems to be little risk of it
coming apart at the seams as .308 rounds go through it.  Thanks for the
concerns expressed, though!

Hal Kauffeldt  | Bell-Northern Research Ltd. |     Liability for
(613)-765-4589 | P.O. Box 3511 Station C     |   expressed views 
halk@bnr.ca    | Ottawa, Ont. CANADA K1Y 4H7 |          is mine.
----------------------------------------------------------------
   Oxymoron for the day:  "the Honourable Minister of Justice"
From: J066610@LMSC5.IS.LMSC.LOCKHEED.COM
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Mini-14 Stainless price?
Date: 6 Oct 92 01:02:55 GMT
Organization: Lockheed Missiles & Space Company, Inc.

Hello Netters,

I have had a Ruger Mini-14 Stainless Steel carbine stored away in my
closet along with a few other guns.  I bought it new about 5 years ago
and have never fired it.  I was thinking of trying to sell it, but wasn't
sure as to how much it might be worth these days.  It is in brand new
condition.  Anyone have any ideas?

Thanks,
Dan


 ************************************************************************
 ****     INTERNET address:  J066610@lmsc5.is.lmsc.lockheed.com      ****
 ************************************************************************
From: geo@netcom.com (George Pontis)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Silencer questions
Date: 1 Oct 92 13:04:12 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)

mjalava@lk-hp-21.hut.fi (Mika Matti Jalava) writes:


#The weird thing is that the first shot is always much louder than
#subsequent ones. The sound described above was the one made by the
#first one, the latter ones are like like clapping your hands together.
#Maybe this has something to do with hot gases left in the tube after
#the shot.

I could be your hearing that's changing ! There is a mechanism in one's
ear that can temporarily reduce the ear's sensitivity to protect it against
loud noises. It's something like the eye's equivalent of getting blinded by
bright lights.
From: gerard@progress.COM (Gerard Bras)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Are there restrictions on carry in public places
Date: 30 Sep 92 01:58:19 GMT
Organization: Progress Software Corp.

mvjh3@mvuxn.att.com (James M Hajjar) writes:

##From article <199209281440.AA21774@tbird.cc.bellcore.com>, by sykes@donner.cc.bellcore.com (sykes,michael):
## 
## If you have been granted a permit to carry concealed weapons are there
## any places that you are not allowed to carry at all. (e.g. public places
## such as malls, sports arenas, etc.) I would figure the police would 
## give you such a hard time you might as well leave your weapon at home.
## 
## I have a CCW permit and I was wondering if I am justified in being a litte
## aprehensive about carrying in a public place, or am I overreacting.
## 

#Good question!  I live in Massachusetts and personally know a person who
#was busted for carrying while in a building that served alcohol (bar).  The
#police took away his gun, and his permit to carry.  He later had the gun
#returned (damaged!!), but the pistol permit was revoked for good.  While I
#would never carry my pistol in a bar, I wonder if there are other places (in
#Mass.) where carrying a pistol could result in the loss of my permit to carry?

Yes.  It's not legal to carry in school buildings or, I believe grounds, either unless
you're an officer of the law.  BTW, I thought knowing the law was one of the
requirements for getting a permit here.

cheers,
gerard
From: chan@seattleu.edu (Anthony K.B. Chan)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Opinion wanted on AMT On-duty 9mm
Date: 26 Sep 92 15:38:51 GMT
Organization: Seattle University, Seattle WA

Subject: AMT On Duty 9mm pistol
Newsgroups: rec.guns

Has anyone ever tried the AMT On duty 9mm pistol? Is it any good? I know the
receiver is aluminum alloy. Does anoyone know if the slide and barrel are
stainless steel or just carbon steel ? 

Anthony Chan
Computer & Information Services
Seattle University

Internet Address: chan@sumax.seattleu.edu
From: booth@mdd.comm.mot.com (Greg Booth)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: tumbling bullets PART II
Date: 28 Sep 92 21:56:25 GMT
Organization: Motorola - Mobile Data Division; Richmond, BC

After much help from about a dozen people (Thanks everybody!)

The following info shows up.


1) The correct term is "keyholing". Brass tumbles, bullets keyhole.

2) lead bullets should be .001 over jacketed sized bullets
   i.e. .356 vs .355 for 9mm.

3) Jacketed bullets keyhole if not enough velocity. 900-1100fps
  needed for typical jacketed 9mm bullets.

4) 4.6 grains of 231 is too hot for lead 9mm 124 grain bullets.
  I dropped to 3.7 grains, no more keyholing seen in 50 rnds tried.

5) Looks like excessive leading can cause keyholing, which is
  why dropping velocity helps. 

6) A bad muzzle crown can cause keyholing, mine appears fine.

7) Unsquare bullet bases can have same effect of a bad
  muzzle crown. Gas escapes barrell unevenly when bullet
  exits muzzle. Check your lead for bad casting and/or damage. 
  As well check for overly soft bullets which keep their
  shape about as well as a marsh mellow will..

8) Several responders reported similar problems. It appears
  that it not so easy to get a 9mm load using cast lead
  bullets that doesn't keyhole. If you find a load that 
  works, don't mess with it.

9) It appears my Ruger P89DC 9mm is inherently inaccurate.
  At 20 yards with BlackHills 9mm FMJ, Winchester 9mm FMJ,
  and my reloads, shooting from a rest, I am getting huge
  18" or so groups. A friend of mine was shooting it as well,
  and doing as poorly. "All over the f***ing place" in his
  words. Time to get a SIG I guess. (Or at least I will
  use this as an excuse to get one.:-))
  Note we both can make 1"-2" groups with my 1991A1 at the
  same distance, I don't think we are the cause.




-- 
Greg Booth BSc                        | Diligentia-Vis-Celeritas
BCAA-PCDHF-BCWF-NFA-NRA-IPSC-BCFSS    |  	Incolumitas
Motorola Mobile Data Division         | 
booth@mdd.comm.mot.com cgb003@email.comm.mot.com
From: Thi_Huynh@univel.COM (Thi Huynh)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: bore cleaner questions...
Date: 30 Sep 92 01:58:54 GMT

Hi folks,

What is the best copper remover which doesn't damage stainless steel?
I use Hoppe's Copper Solvent and it is a drag to get all copper fouling
out of the bore.  This question has been asked many times before but
unfortunately I forgot. :-(

Another question:  What is the best brass catcher for the Beretta 92FS?
Going after your own brass is a real drag too.  I would like a catcher
which fits well to the gun and let me feel as if it is not there.  Any
good choice available?

You can reply by email and I will summarize.

Thanks muchly,

-tt
From: robert@cuba.vlsivie.tuwien.ac.at (Robert Glock)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Silencer questions
Date: 30 Sep 92 01:57:54 GMT
Organization: Technical University of Vienna

Does anybody have practical experiences with the use of silencers on 
handguns? I am interested in these gadgets' effects on shooting,
especially in the following questions (I know that this depends on 
the used ammunition; please include information about this in your 
answers):

- How much of the bang do they _really_ suppress (I don't think movies
  are good reference 8-) )? Could you compare the resulting noise 
  to some everyday noise?

- Do silencers affect the accuracy of the gun?

- Do silencers wear out through repeated use? If so, how many shots
  (approx.) can you shoot before you have to replace the silencer?

Answers to these questions will be highly appreciated, but every 
information concerning this subject will be welcome. 

Thanks in advance

Robert

--
Robert Glock                           Dept. of VLSI Design
robert@vlsivie.tuwien.ac.at            University of Technology, Vienna
                                       Austria / OLD EUROPE
From: kozowski@ohsu.EDU (Eric Kozowski)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Glock adoption
Date: 6 Oct 92 01:02:46 GMT
Organization: Oregon Health Sciences University

In article <1992Oct3.003922.5337@latcs1.lat.oz.au> jd@latcs1.lat.oz.au (John  
Dimogotsis) writes:
# 
# 	Has the Glock been adopted by any large organization, police-force or
# military?
# 								Thanks.

It was adopted by the Portland, Or. PD acouple of years ago (2?), but they are  
now in the process of getting rid of them.  They have had nothing but problems  
with them.

--
Eric Kozowski                | System/Network Administrator
kozowski@ohsu.edu            | Oregon Health Sciences University
			     | 840 SW Gaines Rd GH113
503/494-4537                 | Portland, Oregon 97201
From: cramer@optilink.com (Clayton Cramer)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Citizenship ?
Date: 6 Oct 92 01:02:53 GMT
Organization: Optilink Corporation, Petaluma, CA


In article <1992Oct2.221840.27024@cbnewsj.cb.att.com>, wb@mtqua.att.com (Werner Baumgartner) writes:
# Is being a Citizen of the USA a prerequisite to being permitted to legally
# own or purchase firearms ? What standing does a legal alien on permanent
# resident status have in this regard ? Are these Federal issues or local,
# State, municipal issues ?
# 
# Any information on this subject would be appreciated.
# 
# 					Thank You, Werner B.

Federal law doesn't prohibit ownership of a firearm by permanent
residents.  California's ban on permanent residents owning 
handguns was struck down by the California Court of Appeals
in People v. Rappard (1972) based on both the 14th Amendment and
a provision of the California Constitution.  The Utah Supreme
Court, on the other hand, upheld a ban on permanent residents
owning firearms in both State v. Beorchia (1974) and State v.
Vlacil (1982), citing the California Supreme Court decision 
In re Rameriz (1924) that was overturned by Rappard.

Colorado's 1919 statute prohibiting resident aliens from owning
firearms was struck down by the Colorado Supreme Court in 
People v. Nakamura (1936) based on the Colorado Constitution.
In Patsone v. Pennsylvania (1914), the U.S. Supreme Court upheld
a Pennsylvania statute that prohibited aliens from possessing
long guns.  The Michigan Supreme Court struck down a ban on
resident aliens owning firearms in People v. Zerillo (1922).

Many states limit concealed weapon permits to U.S. citizens.
-- 
Clayton E. Cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer  My opinions, all mine!
Lesson learned from Gov. Wilson's signing of AB 2601: if you don't get 
your way, have a riot.  Next time, Gov. Wilson will cower appropriately.
From: cramer@optilink.com (Clayton Cramer)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Silencer questions
Date: 2 Oct 92 11:38:42 GMT
Organization: Optilink Corporation, Petaluma, CA


In article <1992Sep29.123738.478@email.tuwien.ac.at>, robert@cuba.vlsivie.tuwien.ac.at (Robert Glock) writes:
# Does anybody have practical experiences with the use of silencers on 
# handguns? I am interested in these gadgets' effects on shooting,
# especially in the following questions (I know that this depends on 
# the used ammunition; please include information about this in your 
# answers):
# --
# Robert Glock                           Dept# of VLSI Design
# robert@vlsivie#tuwien#ac#at            University of Technology, Vienna
#                                        Austria / OLD EUROPE

Uh, is Glock a common family name in Austria, or will we be seeing
some new and interesting products for plastic guns shortly?


-- 
Clayton E. Cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer  My opinions, all mine!
Lesson learned from Gov. Wilson's signing of AB 2601: if you don't get 
your way, have a riot.  Next time, Gov. Wilson will cower appropriately.
From: leem@jpl-devvax.Jpl.Nasa.Gov (Lee Mellinger)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: sniper rifle in 'Navy seals' movie?
Date: 6 Oct 92 01:03:01 GMT
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory (NASA)

In article <1992Oct5.010752.18054@latcs1.lat.oz.au> jd@latcs1.lat.oz.au (John Dimogotsis) writes:
:
:	Does anyone know what sniper rifle was used by the 'God' sniper in
:the movie 'Navy seals' staring 'charlie sheen' ? It looked as if it took 
:.50 cal ammo, or something as huge (made big holes in the wall!).

That was a Barrett .50BMG semi-auto rifle.

Lee

"Mit Pulver und Blei, die Gedanken sind frei."

|Lee F. Mellinger                 Caltech/Jet Propulsion Laboratory - NASA
|4800 Oak Grove Drive, Pasadena, CA 91109 818/354-1163  FTS 792-1163     
|leem@jpl-devvax.JPL.NASA.GOV
From: bluemoon!jamaass@gator.rn.com (Jeffrey A. Maass)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: HANDLOADING: Hodgdon Data Manual #26 Released!
Date: 27 Sep 92 11:28:03 GMT
Organization: Blue Moon BBS ((614) 868-998[024])


Hodgdon Data manual #26 is now available. More than 200 more
pages than #25 (published in 1989?), mostly due to the inclusion
of loading data for other manufacturers' powders: IMR, Winchester, 
and Hercules. Also added are loads for "+P" loads using Hodgdon
powders (e.g., a 185 grain load at 1162 fps, 200 grain load at 
1056 fps for .45ACP, etc). 

Pretty nice job of updating!



Jeff Maass                   Amateur Radio: K8ND (@ W8CQK)
Powell OH (NW of Columbus)         Netmail: jamaass@bluemoon.uucp
From: widener!eskimo.celestial.com!johnn@cs.UMD.EDU (John Navitsky)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Adjustable sights for the Beretta 92FS?
Date: 1 Oct 92 23:30:45 GMT
Organization: =>ESKIMO NORTH (206) 367-3837 SEATTLE, WA.<=

Earlier I wrote...

#I have a Beretta 92FS and have been very pleased with it.  The only thing
#that does bother me is the fixed sights.  Does anyone have any experiance
#with putting new sights on it?  Since it appears cast I would imagine that
#the process would involve grinding off the old sights which does not sound
#appealing.  Does someone make a new slide?  If it could be modified how
#does one find someone you can trust to make these modifications?

Thank you for the replies I've gotten.  In particular two sights were 
discussed:

Millett & Pachmayr

It appears that the Millett is a high profile sight that replaces both
front and rear sights.  The Pachmayr being a low profile sight that only
replaces the rear.

Ok, I have a couple of recomendations, but I am still unclear how these
work.  Someone mentioned tapping out the original sight.  I've seen
handguns with a removable sight like this, but my Beretta 92FS is not one
of them.  (Made in Italy - maybe '90 or '91 - can't remember and it is
not marked on the weapon itself)  The sight is very clearly part of the slide.
(I double checked just in case)  For the rear sight I could imagine a sight
that fits over the old sight... Actually with close inspection of the rear
sight I can imagine that it *might* come out.  But it's very hard to tell. 
In any case I would appreciate any furthor feedback on this.  

FYI, I think I would prefer a low profile sight, preferably a tritium type
glow-in-the-dark sight and I would rather not have the sight bear on the
barrel.  (asthetics rather than fear of malfunctions or need for more
accuracy).  Also, I would like something as durable as possible.
I'm pretty happy with the groups I get with the Beretta it
just happens the groups are always high to the left (perhaps it's me..  
maybe someone has some thoughts about that as well).

Thanks for your help!

-- 
   ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    ||   John Navitsky   `,`,`,`,   e-mail >>  johnn@eskimo.celestial.com  || 
   ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: robert@bioko.vlsivie.tuwien.ac.at (Robert Glock)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Silencer questions
Date: 2 Oct 92 16:57:32 GMT
Organization: Technical University of Vienna

cramer@optilink.com (Clayton Cramer) writes:
: 
: Uh, is Glock a common family name in Austria, or will we be seeing
: some new and interesting products for plastic guns shortly?
: 

Uh, maybe I should have mentioned this in my posting to avoid 
misinterpretations. Sorry.

To put things clear: The fact that my name is the same as the gun
manufacturer's is nothing but a coincidence. No relationships exist
between these families.

--
Robert Glock                           Dept. of VLSI Design
robert@vlsivie.tuwien.ac.at            University of Technology, Vienna
                                       Austria / OLD EUROPE
From: kossack@owlnet.rice.edu (Jordan Marc Kossack)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Cooper/Gunsite  (was Re: First Gun Suggestions?
Date: 5 Oct 92 12:47:12 GMT
Organization: Feo Y Loco Fan Club

In article <19250@smoke.brl.mil> gwyn@smoke.brl.mil (Doug Gwyn) writes:
- Jeff Cooper performs this demo on a video tape aimed at novice handgun
- users.  It has one very beneficial effect, namely to ally novice fears
- about recoil; many people have heard silly stories about recoil and it

	Since you mentioned Cooper, does anyone know if he has 
   actually retired?  The most recent Gunsite stuff I've seen 
   doesn't mention him.  Any comments on the fellow in charge 
   now?  I'm going to be sending in my deposit for API250 rsn, 
   so any comments are appreciated.  Thanks.  


-- 
 Jordan M Kossack  |  Why change Bush in the middle of a screw?     
  kossack@qvi.com  |  Re-elect George in '92!    
  +1 713 240 2073  |       
  
[MODERATOR:  In a Gunsite Gossip within the last six months
or so Cooper confirms he has sold API, though is retained as
a permanent consultant (? instructor? I don't recall the exact
phrasing.)  ]
From: fiddler@concertina.Eng.Sun.COM (steve hix)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: AR15 accuracy
Date: 30 Sep 92 23:13:37 GMT
Article-I.D.: appserv.9209301739.AA26765
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Mt. View, Ca.

In article <1992Sep29.004111.14990@ra.msstate.edu> dnewcomb@whale.st.usm.edu (Donald R. Newcomb) writes:
#
#As for the short barrel, you should ask some metalic silhouette
#shooters. 

Or airgun shooters?  They've been doing the same thing to improve
scores. For example, the Feinwerkbau 601 *looks* like it has a
normal length barrel, but a goodly portion of it is just a hollow
sleeve that the pellet never touches.  (625mm total, 425mm rifled.)
The reduced shot time seems to help accuracy.

#I understand they have started counter boring their
#barrels so that  they are hollow tubes for all but about 18
#inches. This reduces weight  while giving the stabilizing
#effect of a longer barrel without sacrificing accuracy. I don't
#know too much about that, I'm not a chicken shooter.

If you didn't care about your sight radius length (like if using a
scope), there should be some optimum barrel length that gives you an
optimum velocity and minimum shot time (so lateral movement after
ignition is minimized), and you get better scores.  A longer barrel
helps in damping lateral motion (vertical/horizontal), as would
barrel weights, but probably with less weight.

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Of making many books there is no end...  |  What's wrong with chasing 
                       -- Eccl. 12:12    |  nebulae till 3 am?  |-(
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: dnewcomb@whale.st.usm.edu (Donald R. Newcomb)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Rifle Calibers for Long Distance Shooting
Date: 1 Oct 92 23:30:02 GMT
Organization: University of Southern Mississippi

In article <23SEP199208290908@ariel.lerc.nasa.gov> aeporro@ariel.lerc.nasa.gov (Bob Porro) writes:
#I am soliciting opinions from all you experts out there about what caliber to 
#use for long distance bullseye shooting.  The rifle will be a bolt action, and 
#its intended use would be for distances of 600 yards and greater.

The first thing you need to understand is that the long-term trend is
toward smaller calibers. In the 1880s you had to use .45 cal. From
the early 1900s various .30 cal rounds were popular. The .300 H&H
was developed in the 1930s for just this job. The trend to smaller
calibers got a big boost recently with the introduction of the Very
Low Drag (VLD) projectiles. I understand that most of the big name
bolt gunners are now shooting  .243 (6 mm) out to 600 y. I am not
ready to suggest that one build a 1000 yd. match gun in 6 mm, but
I can't see any reason to go above 7mm. My first choice would be .284 Win.
It works in a short action so the same gun can be used from 200 yd.
all the way out to 1000 yd. I don't think I would bother with the
belted cases, just MHO.

#I prefer to use a standard caliber rather than some wildcat cartridge that I 
#have to form brass for.  In addition, I would like two recommendations:  one 
#caliber for a short bolt action and another for a long bolt action.  The 
#problem is that I shoot left handed, and many rifle manufacturers only offer 
#left handed bolt actions in the long action only.  I am currently leaning 
#towards either the 7mm Rem. Mag (long action) or 7mm-08 (short action)
#cartridge.  Opinions anyone? 

If you are just going to use it for 1000 yd match shooting, there is no
reason that you can't put a long round in a short action. The action only
needs to be long enough to eject the spent case. Also using a right hand
action should only be a minor inconvenience as it will only be used
slow fire. .308 is very marginal for 1000. I know people who do it but
the target pullers tend to stand very close to the wall because the
bullets come in at about a 45 degree angle.
-- 

Donald R. Newcomb
dnewcomb@whale.st.usm.edu
newcomb@usmcp6.bitnet