From: gross@befvax.uchicago.edu
Subject: Re: Carol Moseley Braun (was Re: Women in Politics)
Reply-To: gross@befvax.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago, Dept of Molecular Genetics
Distribution: na
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1992 20:40:24 GMT

In article <BMCLF5.Mvp@world.std.com>, tp> > arks@world.std.com (terry parks) writes:

I apologize for this conversation.  The person in question is extremely
offensive and thinks that Carol Moseley Braun, the NAACP, the league
of Women Voters and other groups are racist and sexist.

me>And no one's saying that women should have to vote for women, but just
me>that they should have the choice.

tp>They (and even men), have this choice, right now. There's no restriction
tp>on sexists being able to vote. If you and your fellow sexists want to
tp>vote for people on the basis of their gender you can. If you want to
tp>vote for an ardent bigot like Ms. Braun or someone like David Duke,
tp>you can. Just spare me the rhetoric of all the "good" reasons why
tp>women shouldn't work outside the home, I mean, why Senator Braun should
tp>not represent men.

Your comparison of Braun to Duke is disgusting.
Again you call women sexists.

me>  Just a check.
me>  Please tell me whether you think the following organizations are
me>  discriminatory? (they are all at our school) 
me>  The Jewish Student's Union
me>  The Arab Culture Club
me>  Organization of Black Students
me>  The Women's Union
me>  The Korean Club,

tp>  Well, I would need some more information to make a conclusion but I would
tp>  say that the OBS and WU clearly appear so (assuming by discriminatory
tp>  you mean bigoted).

me >Why is it that you single out the women's and black's, but not Jews
me >Koreans or Muslims?

tp> If one sees sufficient value in it, such as being able to join the
tp> Jewish Student's Union, one can convert to Judaism. If Korean Club
tp> membership is desired, one can move to Korean. And if access to the
tp> thousands of scholarships restricted to females is desired, then one can ...
tp> well, one cannot become a female. Which is why sexists make and
tp >support such restrictions.

But you're just wrong. Anyone can join these organizations.

me>(I bet I can bet on the answer).
me>Student organizations here can not restrict membership on criteria of
me>race, sex, religion, national origin, sexual orientation, etc, so 
me>they are not discriminatory in the way you imply.

tp>Oh, really? The Organization of Black Students doesn't restrict membership
tp>on race--they just try to, eh? The very name is meant to alienate people
tp>on the basis of race. But I guess there's no bigotry that you don't
tp>embrace, eh?

No they don't.  Their name is not allienate people, and they welcome people
who aren't black.  They deal with black issues and black culture, the same
way that the Jewish groups deal with Jewish culture and Jewish issues.


me>But thank you for giving us another example of how you reason and
me>draw rather strong conclusions about things you know nothing about.

tp>I get it, the Organization of Black Students isn't called the Organization
tp>of Black Students.

No, it doesn't restrict membership to blacks, and neither is it racist.

me>  How about these:
me>  the NAACP
me>  the Anti-Defamation League of the Bnai Brith
me>  the league of women voters 

tp> I would need some more info on the ADL but the NAACP and the League of 
tp> Sexist, I mean Women, voters certainly are.

me>Look Einstein.
me>the league of Women Voters perform a public service.
[Terry here deletes the public service of sponoring the debates between
the presidential voters].

>So does the KKK, no doubt another organization you defend.

You are truly a sick individual.
I already said that I was Jewish.  You have to know that the KKK hates Jews.  
I spend time on the net battling people who post white-supremist, KKK
and anti-Semitic literature.  I have a reputation for that. 

>>They sponsor the debates between candidates,

>And KKK cleans up trash alongside highways. I'm not impressed with your
>concept that if you're bigoted not all the time, well, then that's okay
>when you are bigoted.

The KKK lynches people and teaches hatred.  The league of Women voters
encourgages people (all people) to register and to vote, and to watch
debates and be informed about the candidates. There is no comparison.  

me>And why is the NAACP racist. If you knew history, you would know that the
me>'C' stands for colored, and blacks have not been called that for a long
me>time.  When the NAACP started, blacks were denied access to education,
me>employment, voting, etc. 

tp>And of course with your feable bigot mind, the solution for "blacks"
tp>being denied education, employment, voting, etc. is to deny "whites"
tp>education, employment, voting, etc. 

I never said anything like that.  And I'm not a bigot.  Where did I say
anything about quotas, affirmative action, or anything else like that?

me>One more question.  Martin Luther King Jr.  (I'll assume
me>you know who he is.  Hint, no relation to Rodney King).  Racist?

>Did he engage in or support racial prejudice?

Is that a serious question?  No you idiot.  He fought against it, all kinds.  
That's why there is a day named after him, and he got the nobel peace prize.
If you listen to his "I have a dream speech" you'll see what his vision is.

tp> Okay, your turn:

tp> > The Men's Union
tp> > the NAAWP
tp> > the league of men voters
>
>>The NAAWP is racist. 
>
>So a group to advance those of a specific race is racist but, in your
>view, only when that racist is white and not black. So indeed, you are
>racist in which organizations you think are racist.

A group that is affiliated with the KKK and shares membership, and is
a white-supremicist group is racist.  Someone posted some of their
anti-Semitic propagand recently on the net.  Would you like a copy of
it so you can judge for yourself?  They are considered a hate group
by the Anti-Defamation League of the Bnai group and by civil rights
organizations.  

me>  What's your problem with her?
	[Carol Moseley Braun]

tp>  She's a racist and sexist bigot.

me>No sir, you are.

tp>And this is because?

I don't know why you are a bigot, but your words speak for themselves.

tp>Are the Jewish groups I belong to discriminatory.

me>Probably. Are they bigoted? Well, do they discriminate on the basis of
me>select physical characteristics?
The Jewish groups I belong to are discriminatory?  Probably?  What
are you talking about?  Discriminate based on physical charecteristics?
What do you have in mind here?  Measuring people's noses to see if they
are Jewish?  

me>of course, you ignore the fact that she has a reputation of crossing
me>race and gender lines. 

tp>And you want me to ignore what she herself says. I know, who should
tp>I believe, you or my own eyes.
You should believe what Senators, Congressmen, the democratice party,
the press, say about her.  NO ONE else has your view of her.

me>And this is because she rejects gender and
me>racial bias (read what people besides yourself say about her), not 
me>embraces it.

tp>This is not what she herself says.

Again, you have provided no evidence of this.  And your ignorance and
foolishness destroy any credibility you may ever have.

Leon Gross
I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV.
Newsgroups: tcd.talk,soc.women,soc.men,talk.rape,talk.abortion,rec.arts.sf.misc