From: visser@convex.com (Lance Visser)
Subject: Re: Where is your non-existent list of scholars, "Visserian"? Here is mine.
Organization: CONVEX Computer Corporation, Richardson, Tx., USA
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 08:42:12 GMT
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

In <9301112056@zuma.UUCP> sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic) writes:

+>In article <visser.726779613@convex.convex.com> visser@convex.com (Lance Visser) writes:

+>>You are not interested in debate, only propoganda.  You have misrepresented 
+>>the views of most of your sources, selectivly quoted others and have used 





+>Now a different view of this scene. Here is the compulsive liar. Rather
+>ordinary, medium gray, middle-aged genocide apologist. This time I will
+>bury you in silence. During the First World War and the ensuing years - 
+>1914-1920, the Armenian Dictatorship through a premeditated and systematic 
+>genocide, tried to complete its centuries-old policy of annihilation against 
+>the Turks and Kurds by savagely murdering 2.5 million Muslims and deporting 
+>the rest from their 1,000 year homeland. The attempt at genocide is justly 
+>regarded as the first instance of Genocide in the 20th Century acted upon 
+>an entire people. This event is incontrovertibly proven by historians, 
+>government and international political leaders, such as U.S. Ambassador 
+>Mark Bristol, William Langer, Ambassador Layard, James Barton, Stanford 


.....[List deleted]

	The problem with your list is that the people on your list are
your sources for a wide variety of facts.  Very few of them, when
contacted will support your believes and your extremism.  They most
certainly did not sign onto the paragraph you have put above the list.



	As an example from your list:


+>Justin McCarthy, Professor of History, University of Louisville.

	Is on your list.  Now the following is a posting that you
refused to answer at the time that shows your beliefs and those
of McCarthy to be at Odds.  Will you debate the material that 
shows you to be wrong in your conclusions this time? 

******************************

Mr Argic, 

Please get your numbers straight with your sources.  You have stated that
`` As for the numbers, I do have a copy of a demographic history on the 
question of the numbers which was published by . . .  Prof. Justin McCarthy.''

McCarthy, J., "Muslims and Minorities, The Population of Ottoman 
     Anatolia and the End of the Empire," New York University Press, 
     New York, 1983, pp. 133-144.

Please review the figures in the book, particularly Table 7.10.  You will
find that the figure he gives for the population loss in the six eastern 
provinces is 1,040,376, not 2.5 million.  The latter is population loss for
Turkey as a whole.  How the Armenian dictatorship managed to ``murder''
more than 750,000 Muslims in Aydin and Konyai (wetern and southern Anatolia) 
is an interesting question of military tactics.  You also seem to ignore the 
McCarthy's estimates of deaths of Armenians (Table 7.7) and Greeks (Table 7.8) 
during the same period.  Perhaps you can explain how these losses fit into 
the Armenian dictatorship's master plan of genocide, unless you find these 
figures uncomfortable.  

You might also want to explain your reaction to the following statement
by McCarthy (p. 137): ``...[I]t is an error to speak of Greek deaths, Muslim
deaths, or Armenian deaths as if each somehow had a separate existence.
To mention the sufferings of one group and avoid those of another gives
a false picture of what was a human, not simply an ethnic, disaster.''

(You might also want to update your citation above.  The section you want
is pp 133-139, on Muslim deaths.  Pp 140-144 which you cite are notes.
Why not throw in pp 121-130 on Armenian population losses and pp 130-133
on Greek population losses, as well?)

Other Readers,

The tables below indicate broadly the story according to McCarthy. 
Approximately 18% of Anatolian muslims died. These included Turks
killed by Armenians, Turks killed by Greeks, Turks killed by Russians,
Turks killed by Kurds, Turks killed by disease, Turks killed by starvation, 
Kurds killed by Armenians, Kurds killed by Russians, Kurds killed by 
Turks, Kurds killed by disease, etc.  The population loss was general; 
areas away from the front were ravaged by hunger and disease. While more 
than 2.5 million died, some died in the east, some in the west.  The 1927 
census showed a deficit (relative to women) of 830,000 men in the age 
group 20-45, so a lot of military age men died.  The population loss in 
the east amounted to more than a million people, including both the dead 
and refugees.  Because of the large numbers of refugees, it is hard to 
say exactly which people died.  For example, Erzurum lost 31% of it's 
muslim population, while neighboring Trabzon lost only 4%.  This could mean 
that refugees from Erzurum are disguising deaths in Trabzon.

Meanwhile, McCarthy estimates that 40% of Anatolian Armenians died
(including, of course, those who were killed by Turks, those killed by Kurds,
those killed by disease, those killed by starvation, etc.) and most of the 
remainder made refugees.  McCarthy does not ignore Armenian deaths, although
some believe that he misestimates the prewar Armenian population, and 
therefore derives a low estimate of Armenian deaths.  (McCarthy discusses
the sources of this disagreement in his Chapter 3.)

					--Stuart Sechrest

Muslim population losses (McCarthy's Tables 7.10 and 7.11)

Province	Estimated	Estimated 	Proportion
		1912 pop. 	pop. loss	lost
				1912-1922
---------       ----------     ----------       ----------
Adana		   573,256	 42,511		    7%
Ankara		 1,263,199	104,823		    8%
Aydin		 1,734,179	333,230		   19%
Biga		   165,508	 24,793		   15%
Bitlis		   408,703	169,748		   42%
Diyarbakir	   598,985	158,043		   26%
Erzurum		   804,388	248,695		   31%
Haleb		   562,197	 50,838		    9%
Huedavendigar	 1,598,583	160,612		   10%
Izmit		   271,751	 12,039		    4%
Kastamonu	 1,305,279	224,679		   17%
Konya		 1,542,331	418,442		   27%
Mamuretuelaziz	   564,164	 89,310		   16%
Sivas		 1,196,300	180,413		   15%
Trabon		 1,178,655	 49,907		    4%
Van		   313,322	194,167		   62%
------------------------------------------------------------
Total 		14,080,800    2,462,250		   18%

Total for	 3,885,862    1,040,376            27%
eastern provinces

Armenian population losses (Tables 7.1 and 7.7)

		Estimated 	Estimated   Estimated 	Estimated Proportion 
		1912 pop.	1922 pop    dead 	refugees  dead
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
		1,465,148	70,000	    584,268	810,000    40%
		





+>Now, where is your non-existent list of scholars, "visserian"? The 
+>ASALA/SDPA/ARF Terrorists and Revisionists stole your brain cells?

	I have posted information that shows that the conclusions
you have drawn from at least one source on your list are flawed.
I dare you to explain how McCarthy (one of your sources) agrees
with your conclusions in the light of the material I included.  
	If you do not answer how your conclusions that McCarthy 
supported your ideas were reached, you will be revealed as dishonest
and everything else you post will be suspect to say the least.
	You dont have the nerve to debate because your scared.  Your
response will be to switch issues or scholars now.  I dare you
to debate what is in McCarthy, a scholar on your list who you
claim believe your ideology.