HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson)
Subject: Re: Security of Master combination locks
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 08:32:06 GMT

so@fortran.cs.psu.edu (Nicol C. So) writes:
: I am using a Master combination lock to secure my storage, but somebody
: pointed out that this kind of lock can be defeated in less than a minute,
: which sounds really scary to me.  Can somebody tell me what kind of
: approach people use to defeat Master combination locks (not including
: sledgehammers, of course)?  If this kind of lock is not secure, what
: would be a good padlock to use for a rented storage?

Many combination locks can be opened by a method called "rapping". I
don't know if the standard Master padlock is one of them. Rapping a
lock makes use of the inertia of the shackle locking mechanism. The
precise method is described in locksmithing books.  It is also possible
to shim open many combination and key operated shackle locks.

Bill
Newsgroups: alt.locksmithing
From: davidb@zeus.ce.washington.edu (David W. Barts)
Subject: GIFs moved
Keywords: different host, different directory
Organization: University of Washington
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 06:52:00 GMT


The files rake.gif and warded.gif have been moved to a new anonymous
FTP host (atlas.ce.washington.edu) and are now in the directory
/pub/alt.locksmithing on that host.

--
David Barts  N5JRN                      UW Civil Engineering, FX-10
davidb@zeus.ce.washington.edu           Seattle, WA  98195
In Hell, you can have whatever workstation you want
(but it always comes with an LK-201 keyboard).
Newsgroups: alt.locksmithing
From: mdmelvin@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu (Tyrant)
Subject: Re: warded.gif at uwashington
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 02:01:14 GMT


	Hi guys.  I was wondering if somebody could tell me how to get 
hold of this file.  I tried to ftp it but it wouldn't let me into the
system.  Would it be possible for someone to mail me the parts of the
gif uuencoded??

	Any help would be seriously appreciated.  Either a post or mail 
would be fine.

	Thanks,
	  Tyrant.  (mdmelvin@descartes.uwaterloo.ca)
From: psr@acsu.buffalo.edu (Ben the Crafter)
Newsgroups: alt.locksmithing
Subject: Re: Please teach me how to open locks
Date: 29 Jul 92 01:58:54 GMT
Organization: UB

I've also found this group a big help.  
I got the address af a company that sold me a set of picks and that started me on my new hobby.

-- 
Strider                     | SUNY @ Buffalo | psr@acsu.buffalo.edu
Lord Mayor, The Hill People | (716) 636 4862 | V127MHSK@ubvms.bitnet
     "For the good of all and acording to the free-will of all.
                    To learn, to love, RELEASE."
From: ben@monmouth.edu (Bennett Broder)
Newsgroups: alt.locksmithing
Subject: How do I reverse a Kwikset lockset
Date: 21 Jul 92 16:08:41 GMT
Organization: Monmouth College, W. Long Branch, N.J.  07764

I have a Kwikset lock-in-knob lockset; the cylinder is upside-down
(the pins are on the bottom).  I would like to reverse the lock so
that the pins are on the top.  I have removed the lock and studied
it, but I can't figure out how to do this.  Can someone either post
or mail me detailed instructions on how to do this?

Thanks for any help you can provide.

-- 

Bennett Broder               Monmouth College
                             Computer Services
ben@monmouth.edu             W. Long Branch, NJ 07764
From: bobk@ESD.3Com.COM (Bob Konigsberg)
Newsgroups: alt.locksmithing
Subject: Re: How do I reverse a Kwikset lockset
Date: 21 Jul 92 20:37:38 GMT

ben@monmouth.edu (Bennett Broder) writes:

>I have a Kwikset lock-in-knob lockset; the cylinder is upside-down
>(the pins are on the bottom).  I would like to reverse the lock so
>that the pins are on the top.  I have removed the lock and studied
>it, but I can't figure out how to do this.  Can someone either post
>or mail me detailed instructions on how to do this?

>Thanks for any help you can provide.

>-- 

>Bennett Broder               Monmouth College
>                             Computer Services
>
ben@monmouth.edu             W. Long Branch, NJ 07764

The lock cylinder is held into the knob with two spring prongs.  Once the`
outer knob is removed, push into the back hole of the knob with two screw-
drivers and spring the cylinder loose.  Then rotate 180 degrees and replace.

BobK

--
This is a signature file.  Let's see if it gets there.
From: dude@losers.hacktic.nl
Newsgroups: alt.locksmithing
Subject: Re: Re: Please teach me how to open locks
Date: 29 Jul 92 00:56:46 GMT
Organisation: black mail inc.

In article  <spencer.712196117@infs3>, Greg Spencer writes:

 S> So, when you get the pin in the correct position to start with 
 S> how do you know that it is their? Does it sort of click in?
 
 Yep, and also the core will turn a little bit with each pin.
 Also, if you release tension too early, you can hear the pins falling
 in place again (click-click-click-click, very fast).
 The main thing is to actually do it, that'll teach you a lot more
 than one week reading of usenet :)
From: kuhn@swe.ncsl.nist.gov (Rick &)
Newsgroups: alt.locksmithing
Subject: Abloy mistake
Date: 27 Jul 92 12:25:22 GMT
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4

Several years ago I bought three Abloy locks.  Last week I went to get
keys copied, and the locksmith found that one of the registration cards
didn't correspond to the key.  The other two were correct, and these are
the only Abloy locks I've ever owned.  The mistake was apparently made
at the factory.  Has anyone on this list seen this problem before?  


--

Rick Kuhn                                   Telephone: +1 301 975 3337       
Natl Institute of Standards & Technology    Fax:       +1 301 590 0932      
Technology Bldg. B266                       Internet: kuhn@swe.ncsl.nist.gov
Gaithersburg, Md.  20899  USA                       DRKuhn@dockmaster.ncsc.mil
From: dude@losers.hacktic.nl
Newsgroups: alt.locksmithing
Subject: Re: Re: High quality padlocks (was Re: Security of Master combination locks)
Date: 30 Jul 92 19:19:11 GMT
Organisation: black mail inc.

In article  <-280792125415@microlab24.med.upenn.edu>, 
USENET News System writes:

 N> Abus Discus Locks and you usually see them on the steel shutters on
 N> storefronts. 
 N> 
 N> I got one for about $12.00 at the local hardware store. I use it to lock my
 N> bicycle in combination with a case hardened chain (1/2" links)
 N> 
 N> Don't know anything about it's strengths and weaknesses.
 
 The abus Discus is one of the better locks around: 
 - virtually uncuttable, it's hard to get a grip on the body, and you
   can't reach the bolt with an ordinary boltcutter.
 - extremely difficult to pick because of the mushroom pins, 
   and because of the fact that the cylinder is mounted upside down.
   I heard you can pick them with a feather tensionwrench and a lot
   of patience, but I never picked one.

 The only problem I see, is that most of the time it's used on a shackle
 or chain or something, and most chains are easy to cut.
 
Newsgroups: alt.locksmithing
From: craig@grad02.math.ncsu.edu (Ralph Craig)
Subject: Re: Please teach me how to open locks
Organization: NCSU Mathematics Dept.
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 01:15:07 GMT

In article <spencer.711677323@infs4> spencer@swanee.ee.uwa.oz.au (Greg Spencer) writes:
>struggle@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (robotron) writes:
>
>>Hi Lock Experts:
>
 Could you kind souls out there please tell me how I can open a lock like
 the one I have in my house with very primitive in
>struments (such as a paper clipper), and how I can make those instruments myself?
>
>>	Thanks very much. (Please reply thru mail)
>>---
>>struggle
>
>Yeah Yeah , if anyone replies with info can they send it to me too. However I do find it unlikely that you will get a replie people in alt.locksmithing seem to be unfreindly towards strangers!

	Actually, I have found that the posters to this group are remarkably
friendly and eager to share their knowledge.  Thanks to this group, I got in
touch with one of the local experts, who gave me some spring steel, instructions
for a simple set of picks, and some advice.  I borrowed a friend's drill and
bought a grinding wheel and a couple of hours later, I had a very professional
looking set of picks with which I have been practicing on every lock in sight.

	Making and using the picks is actually much easier than I thought it
would be and I enjoy the feeling of knowing that if I accidentally lock myself
out of the house, I won't have to sleep in my yard and feed the mosquitoes.

	Making the picks is so easy that I'm tempted to go into business 
selling them.  The only problem is that I would want to be absolutely sure
about the legality of such a transaction beforehand.

Ralph Craig



Newsgroups: alt.locksmithing
From: davidb@zeus.ce.washington.edu (David W. Barts)
Subject: Re: REQUEST: Instructions/Illustrations
Organization: University of Washington
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 05:25:28 GMT

In article <Brv5An.567@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, dms50304@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Darkman) writes:
> Hahahaha.... you're in for a surprise.  The gifs are homemade tools -- far from
> "state of the art".  Someone just laid there tools on a scanner and voila.

As the keeper (not creator) of these files, I quite agree.  I made them
available mainly to cut down on posted requests for these files.

--
David Barts  N5JRN                      UW Civil Engineering, FX-10
davidb@ce.washington.edu                Seattle, WA  98195
Newsgroups: alt.locksmithing
From: dougnews@access.digex.com (Doug Humphrey)
Subject: Re: Kwikset temporary master key system
Organization: Express Access Public Access UNIX, Greenbelt, Maryland
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 14:55:24 GMT


There are some locks which come with the rearmost 3 or so pins
held up to the sheer with a metal insert (effectivly the last
"half" of the key).  Then there is a "construction master" 
which is only 2 or so pins long.  It can open all of the 
locks until the insert gets pulled out.  Now, this does mean
that all of the locks have the same keying for the first couple
of pins, which might not be a good thing, but at least there
is not a construction master out there that can open your locks.
It's better than nothing...


Doug
-- 
Newsgroups: alt.locksmithing
From: jhargiss@netcom.com (Jeffrey D. Hargiss)
Subject: Re: Security of Master combination locks
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 92 23:12:21 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 

so@fortran.cs.psu.edu (Nicol C. So) writes:

>I am using a Master combination lock to secure my storage, but somebody
>pointed out that this kind of lock can be defeated in less than a minute,
>which sounds really scary to me.  Can somebody tell me what kind of
>approach people use to defeat Master combination locks (not including
>sledgehammers, of course)?  If this kind of lock is not secure, what
>would be a good padlock to use for a rented storage?

A lot of times, all you have to do is wiggle the dial around while jerking
the shackle up and down.

The best type I have seen uses a MAGNETIC KEY to unlock the lock.
They use a series of very small magnets down one side of the case.
If your 'key' matches, it opens.  VERY VERY difficult to pick.  It is
more likely that only one in a million could open this lock. (besides
cutting it of course).
From: news@netnews.upenn.edu (USENET News System)
Newsgroups: alt.locksmithing
Subject: Re: High quality padlocks (was Re: Security of Master combination locks)
Date: 28 Jul 92 16:44:33 GMT
Followup-To: alt.locksmithing
Organization: University of Pennsylvania

In article <1992Jul28.154504.7308@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>,
jangerma@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Jake Angerman) wrote:
< A while ago when I stored some stuff in a storage facility, I noticed
< the guy next to me had put a high quality padlock on his locker.
< Instead of your average padlock with a U shaped shackle, the lock was
< in the shape of a disc:   (excuse the crude drawing...)
<                              _______
<                             /\_____/\  <- shackle
<                            /         \
<                           /     _     \
<                          |     (_)     | <- keyhole in center
<                          |             | 
<                           \           /
<                            \         /
<                             \_______/
< Since the surface area of the shackle was relatively small -- as if it
< were "pinched" closed -- it would be *extremely* difficult to cut this
< baby off with a bolt cutter.  It looked tough.
< 
< I had never seen anything like this before.  I looked on the back and
< I think it was made in Germany.  Does anyone know what it's called,
< what its strengths and weaknesses are, how much it costs and where I
< could get one?


Abus Discus Locks and you usually see them on the steel shutters on
storefronts. 

I got one for about $12.00 at the local hardware store. I use it to lock my
bicycle in combination with a case hardened chain (1/2" links)

Don't know anything about it's strengths and weaknesses.

The bubble pack that it came with said something about mushroom pins,
stainless steel body (more weather resistant), laser welded seams.
Newsgroups: alt.locksmithing
From: wb8foz@skybridge.SCL.CWRU.Edu (David Lesher)
Subject: Re: Security of Master combination locks
Reply-To: wb8foz@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu (David Lesher)
Organization: NRK Clinic for habitual NetNews abusers - Beltway Annex
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 01:18:08 GMT

Others said:
# The best type I have seen uses a MAGNETIC KEY to unlock the lock.
# They use a series of very small magnets down one side of the case.
# If your 'key' matches, it opens.  VERY VERY difficult to pick.  

True, but...
This type lock can be opened (non-destructivly) in about 5
seconds. I've seen it done by our specialist in such matters. 

Ther are two padlocks I trust:
Combination: The GSA approved S & G 8077 lock. Certified to
       	     protect classified data in the US. Nice shiny case.

Key: Medeco Protector. You do NOT want to lose the key to your Medeco. 
		       Sure it can be removed - just get full tanks in
		       your torch first.


--
A host is a host from coast to coast..wb8foz@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu
& no one will talk to a host that's close..........................
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433
Newsgroups: alt.locksmithing
From: billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson)
Subject: Re: Please teach me how to open locks
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 07:41:04 GMT

spencer@swanee.ee.uwa.oz.au (Greg Spencer) writes:
: 
: Yeah Yeah , if anyone replies with info can they send it to me too. However I do find it unlikely that you will get a replie people in alt.locksmithing seem to be unfreindly towards strangers!

No. The problem is that such a thing is impossible. Buy a good book on
locksmithing. Then you can buy or make your own tools and practice a
lot. Loompanics Books or Paladin Press should have what you want.

Bill
Newsgroups: alt.locksmithing
From: billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson)
Subject: Re: Security
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 08:25:18 GMT

technews@iitmax.iit.edu (Kevin Kadow) writes:
: 
: Considering the design of combination locks, there should be a way to
: progressively test the combinations. Am I right in assuming:
: 
: 99% of locks have 3 dials inside, each with _only_one_ "pin" and one or
: more notches, one of which is deep enough to release the shackle?

Close. For the common locks, this is basicaly true. There are not "pins",
as such, but there are projections on the discs that are used to "pick up"
the next disc.  There may also be more than 3 discs in a 3 combination lock.
What happens is: You turn the knob one direction - the first thing that
happens is all the discs are turned to the initialization setting and then
dropped, except for the first disc - it keeps turning. When you change
direction (turning past zero), the projections on that disc pick up the
second disc. When you change directions again, the projections on the
second disc pick up the third disc. At this point, the gates on the three
discs are line up, but they are not lined up with the shackle release
mechanism. That happens when you complete turning the disc to the proper
number.

Now, some lock require that you press in on the shackle, before the 
shackle can be released, on others the lock will open as soon as you
reach the third number. Obviously, the former is more secure.

All this is better explained in any good book on locksmithing.

Bill

: If you can be sure that there is only one pin per dial, then it should be
: possible to progressively test each comb. If you turn the lock 2 turns to
: "clear" it, then you know that the pins are lined up

As I stated above, there are no "pins" such as you would find in a pin
tumbler lock. The two turns just turns the combination discs to the initial
starting setting.

Yes, it is possible to progressively test each combination. However, there
are potential problems. You can cut the number of possible combinations in
half, even on very good locks, by setting to 0.5,2.5,4.5 etc - instead of
using whole numbers. Most locks have enough tolerance for this to work.
Many, as stated before, allow the use of 0,4,8,12 etc. Now, it is possible
to turn the dial too fast - some locks will overshoot if this is done -
messing up your testing sequence. Also, if you have to push in on the
shackle before it will release, it greatly increases the test time since
pulling on it will also scramble the discs. This means that you cannot,
for example, dial 0,0,0 then 4 then 8 etc. You have to dial 0,0,0 then
0,0,4 then 0,0,8 etc. 

Bill
From: dude@losers.hacktic.nl
Newsgroups: alt.locksmithing
Subject: Re: Re: Please teach me how to open locks
Date: 29 Jul 92 00:56:47 GMT
Organisation: black mail inc.

In article  <BrzL9F.7DB@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, Darkman writes:

 D> On my lock, the cylinder is open on the other side which means if you 
 D> push all the pins down and push the pick back, you can use the pick to pry
 D> back the hammer.  Way too easy... I know it sounds weird that I have a lock
 D> I don't trust, but plan on getting a new one somtime, just too lazy... :)

 What do you mean with 'hammer' ? Do you mean you insert the pick way up the 
 lock until you touch the end of the lock and then push it against the 
 hammer(?) sideways ? I've seen this 'feature' on more locks than one 
 (always a padlock of course). I usually use a feeler pick for pushing these 
 locks. 
Newsgroups: alt.locksmithing
From: dms50304@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Darkman)
Subject: Re: Please teach me how to open locks
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 07:41:10 GMT

dude@losers.hacktic.nl writes:

>In article  <BrzL9F.7DB@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, Darkman writes:

> D> On my lock, the cylinder is open on the other side which means if you 
> D> push all the pins down and push the pick back, you can use the pick to pry
> D> back the hammer.  Way too easy... I know it sounds weird that I have a lock
> D> I don't trust, but plan on getting a new one somtime, just too lazy... :)

> What do you mean with 'hammer' ? Do you mean you insert the pick way up the 
> lock until you touch the end of the lock and then push it against the 
> hammer(?) sideways ? I've seen this 'feature' on more locks than one 
> (always a padlock of course). I usually use a feeler pick for pushing these 
> locks. 

Sorry, I just know how to pick locks which doesn't mean I know the correct
terminology. By "hammer", I'm referring to the bar that fits in the notch on
shackle of the lock.  Since the cylinder is open, you can use the pick to
slide it out the notch and viola, open lock is 2 secs.  Not very secure huh?

-- 
___________________________________________________________.
|   Daryn Sharp    /\ University of Illinois /\ Engineering |
| Darkman@uiuc.edu \/    Champaign-Urbana    \/  CS Major   | 
!___________________________________________________________!
Newsgroups: alt.locksmithing
From: andrew@cubetech.com (Andrew Loewenstern)
Subject: Re: Please teach me how to open locks
Organization: Cube Technologies, Inc.
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1992 14:14:31 GMT

In article <Bruu01.8z1@cs.columbia.edu> amb@cs.columbia.edu (andrew m. boardman) writes:
>acc23403@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Anthony C.) writes:
>>I dont think that you can use a paperclip to pick locks where the
>>springs of the pins have a normal tension.  A paperclip does not
>>have enough tensile strength to be used as a pick.  Streetcleaner
>>bristles on the other hand work well.
>
>Not at all.  Granted, they're lousy material, but as an emergency
>contingency measure they work OK. What works for me is to bend it so...
>
>_________/\
>
>and resting the lower edge on a random ridge in the keyway, so that the
>clip's bendful properties don't come in to play; the bend is plenty
>strong enough for pushing pins, and if you need to get past a pin that's
>set in a lower position, there's usually enough flex and/or twist to
>squeeze by.  It's actually harder to make a half-assed tension wrench out
>of a paperclip than the pick itself...


You can make a tension wrench that's strong enough by bending a
complete loop in the clip, but chances are that it will be too big to
leave enough room to work with.

Paperclips will ocassionally work on really cheap disk-tumbler locks,
but they are practically worthless on all but the worst pin-tumbler
locks.


andrew
-- 
andrew@cubetech.com
Andrew Loewenstern      | "If I am not for myself, who will be for me?
Cube Technologies, Inc. |  If I am only for myself, who am I?" -Hillel
Newsgroups: alt.locksmithing
From: rboudrie@chpc.org (Rob Boudrie)
Subject: Re: High quality padlocks (was Re: Security of Master combination locks)
Organization: Center For High Perf. Computing of WPI; Marlboro Ma
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 15:40:26 GMT

In article <1992Jul28.154504.7308@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> jangerma@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Jake Angerman) writes:
>>If I knew a particular weakness about the storage facility (such as the
>>existence of weak walls between units), I might even use the presence
>>of high-quality padlocks to help decide which units to break in to (if
>    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>they put a good lock on the door, there must be good stuff inside).
>
>A while ago when I stored some stuff in a storage facility, I noticed
>the guy next to me had put a high quality padlock on his locker.
>Instead of your average padlock with a U shaped shackle, the lock was
>in the shape of a disc:   (excuse the crude drawing...)
>                             _______
>                            /\_____/\  <- shackle
>                           /         \
>                          /     _     \
>                         |     (_)     | <- keyhole in center
>                         |             | 
>                          \           /
>                           \         /
>                            \_______/
>Since the surface area of the shackle was relatively small -- as if it
>were "pinched" closed -- it would be *extremely* difficult to cut this
>baby off with a bolt cutter.  It looked tough.
>
>I had never seen anything like this before.  I looked on the back and
>I think it was made in Germany.  Does anyone know what it's called,
>what its strengths and weaknesses are, how much it costs and where I
>could get one?
>- - - - -                         

The lock brand is ABUS, and I have seen them for sale in the Sears
hardware department.  The keyway looks like a fairly conventional pin
tumbler arrangments - this lock's benefits appear to stem from enhanced
physical security, rather than pick resistance.


>Jake Angerman                                       email: Angerman.1@osu.edu
>THE Ohio State University                           phone: (614) 292-1741  
>College of Business Computing Services Center         FAX: (614) 292-1651
>


Newsgroups: alt.locksmithing