From: mgrossman@hamp.hampshire.edu
Subject: Re: DREAMLANDS GEOGRAPHY AND OTHER OXYMORONS
Organization: Hampshire College
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 15:29:39 GMT

In article <1992Nov11.221951.3101@news.mentorg.com>, bcannard@hppcb36.mentorg.com (The Human Mi-Go) writes:
> 
> In article <1drer0INNjbl@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>, ST701816@brownvm.brown.edu (Arshad Ahsanuddin) writes:
> |> Judging from AT THE MOUNTAINS OF MADNESS, the "real world" archetype for
> |> the Plateau of Leng is in Antarctica:
> 
> << arguments deleted to save space >>
> 
> There is One Small Problem:
> The ice plain described in ATMOM was only provisionally identified as Leng
> by fictional persons who were speculating as to the connection between
> the location and the places described in the Necronomicon, whereas in
> "The Hound" HPL explicitly states that Leng is in the Himalayas. (many
> thanks to the person who pointed out this reference, and apologies for
> forgetting your name).

This is true, and he Alhazred did know about the "ice desert of the South"
which he mentions in the quote below.  However, we never see Leng in Asia,
and we are clearly meant to think that the plateau in Antarctica is Leng.
It's possible there are two places named Leng, with the one in Asia (a
center of cult activity, apparently), named after the one in Antarctica. Or
it's possible that when the corpse eating cult was driven into the mountains
of Tibet (or wherever, and assuming they were driven), they thought they had
come to Leng, since they only had a vague description of what Leng was (racial
memories, maybe?  The elder things did keep humans as slaves).

>          (correlation between Kadath and the mountain in AtMoM deleted)
> On the third hand (Hi, Zaphod) consider this:
> 
> 	"Kadath in the cold waste hath known Them, and what man knows Kadath?
> 	The ice desert of the South and the sunken isles of Ocean hold
> 	stones whereon Their seal is engraven, but who hath seen the deep
> 	frozen city or the sealed tower long garlanded with seaweed and
> 	barnacles?"
> 			- Necronomicon, quoted in "The Dunwich Horror" by HPL
> 
> This quote is full of contradictions, notably the implied connection between
> the Elder Things and the Star Spawn of Cthulhu, which blows ATMOM apart.
> But the key point is that the author was listing places that have known
> Them, and Kadath and the ice desert are listed separately with no obvious
> connection, suggesting they are in different parts of the world. Caveat -
> don't put too much faith in what the Necronomicon says, Alhazred was one
> confused dude, they didn't call him the Mad Arab for nothing. The Pnakotic
> Manuscripts are much more accurate (that should be good for an argument
> or two).
> 
I agree with you about Alhazred, but it seems to me that in this case he's
just listing examples of places where nonhuman beings existed. Also, 
Kadath and the frozen city are two very different places, as even the 
characters in AtMoM realized.

> 
> A more serious problem (well, maybe serious depending on how far you can
> stretch your suspension of disbelief) is that if you plot the progress
> of the Miskatonic U. Antarctic Expedition on an up-to-date map of Antarctica,
> you find both sets of mountains are in the middle of the flattest part of
> that huge, desolate continent.
>
So what made the city dissapear?  The Great Ones, maybe?  After all, they 
wouldn't want explorers mucking around at the very feet of Kadath.
They might have just asked Nyarlathotep to put them somewhere else.
 
> Which brings me to my pet theory: that we're dealing with parallel worlds
> (in addition to the Dreamlands) which can interact in strange ways. In one
> (ours) the conditions are wrong for the Great Old Ones, who are forced to
> sleep under the protection of the ocean (imprisonment has nothing to do
> with it), Antarctica in the Vostok area is flat, and Everest is the highest
> place in the world. In the alternate universe the conditions are right,
> the Great Old Ones can plunge from world to world, and there are two extra
> colossal mountain ranges in Antarctica. What's more the stars are arranged
> differently in the two universes, giving rise to the idea that the stars
> are wrong/right and removing the significance of astrology.  Relativity
> does not apply to the parallel world, so rapid interstellar travel is
> possible (but only to places in the other universe - no I'm not going to
> argue over FTL). And because the two worlds interact at Planet Earth, it
> is possible to slip from one to the other, giving rise to the strange
> displacement effects that HPL was so fond of.
> 
> If the constellations look wrong, start worrying.
> 
> Any comments?
Interesting, but I think that Mythos cosmology is confused enough as it is.  I
like my theory about the Great Ones just leaving, possible taking that whole
area into the dreamlands, where they're less likely to be bothered.  Of course,
this means dreamlands geography will have changed, as the city of the Elder 
Things is now there.  One thing in your favor, though, is that during AtMoM
the characters never saw the stars (the sun never set).
> 
> -- 
> bob_cannard@mentorg.com			"More dynamite!" - Theron Marks


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