HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mls@cbnewsm.att.com
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Jesus, son of Mary
Date: 15 Dec 92 08:37:30 GMT
Organization: AT&T

I want to take exception to one thing in Charley's response to me;
he writes:

+ Well, it is my understanding that "born of the V.M." is in some part
+ intended to emphasize the humanity of Jesus.

I think that what is being refered to here is that "Christ born of
Mary" emphasizes the humanity of Christ.  And with this I have only
the most profound agreement.  But unless Charley has something in
mind that I am ignorant of, I do *not* see the *Virginity* of Mary
as in any way relevant to the point he is making;  And, indeed, I
see that as (possibly) compromising the point that would otherwise
be clear.

Let me repeat: I see Christ as Mary's son, and Mary as _theotokos_.
Now -- what has *virginity* to do with it?  If Charley can cite
some patristic source that finds the *virginity* of Mary somehow of
importance in establishing Jesus' humanity, I will be very interested.
I do not know of any such source.
-- 
Michael L. Siemon		   "Oh, stand, stand at the window,
					As the tears scald and start;
mls@panix.com			   You shall love your crooked neighbor
(please note address)			With your crooked heart."
From: Steve.Hayes@f22.n7101.z5.fidonet.org
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: 3-Self movement? (Re: On China's Christian population)
Date: 20 Dec 92 22:15:08 GMT


 * Moved from SOC.RELIGION.CHRISTIAN (Usenet Xtian) by Steve Hayes

On <12 Dec 1992 18:07> David Hatcher (5:7104/2) said to All :

 DH>>the 3-self movement:
 DH>
 DH>  Could someone who is in the know please explain what this 
 DH>movement is
 DH>about?


In the nineteenth century missionaries debated what the goal of mission was. 
The secretaries of two leading missionary societies, one in the USA and one in 
England, were in particular associated with the idea that the goal of 
mission was to plant self-governing, self-supporting and self-propagating 
churches. 

By the mid-twentieth century, however, the churches started by Protestant 
missionaries were very often being governed by missionaries, supported 
financially by foreigners, and were not themselves missionary. 

When the communist government took over in China in 1949 they expelled most of 
the foreign missionaries, and among other things accused them of failing to 
live up to their slogan of self-governing, self-supporting and 
self-propagating churches. They regarded foreign missionaries as agents of 
imperialism, and encouraged the churches to adopt the slogan. Thus the 
"three-self patriotic movement" was started within the churches, but many 
suspected it of simply being a pawn of the government, and that the 
"three-self" slogan was adopted for political reasons rather than Christian 
conviction. Forty years after the revolution it has not overcome that stigma.

Steve Hayes
Department of Missiology
University of South Africa
P O Box 392
Pretoria
0001 South Africa

Fidonet: 5:7101/22.5
Internet: Steve.Hayes@f22.n7101.z5.fidonet.org
From: jhpb@sarto.budd-lake.nj.us (Joseph H. Buehler)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Christmas on the 25th.  Why? (was Re: Messianic Jews and Christmas)
Date: 16 Dec 92 08:22:36 GMT
Organization: none

In article <Dec.15.04.25.35.1992.5187@geneva.rutgers.edu> cnews@umr.edu (UMR Usenet News Post) writes:

   At any rate, the dead of winter is one of the least likely times for
   shepherds to be watching over flocks by night, which would more likely
   occur in the spring or fall.

If you are referring to the weather, seasons fluctuate to a great
extent.  Winter in Texas, for example, differed by about 30 degrees
between 1972 and 1983.  Spring and fall have their own peculiar
problems, also; there wouldn't have been a census then, because of the
crops.

Here is a list of Fathers and Doctors of the Church who supported the
December 25 date, for the interested:

St. Jerome
St. John Chrysostom
St. Ambrose
St. Augustine
St. Cyril of Alexandria
St. Gregory of Nyssa
St. Gregory Nazianzen
St. Maximus of Turin
Pope St. Leo the Great

Without looking anything up, these are 4th century figures, I think.
I was a bit surprised that December 25 was celebrated so long ago as
Christmas.
From: christian@cs.rutgers.edu
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: News blockage
Date: 14 Dec 92 00:25:06 GMT

I apologize for the delay in the most recent group of articles.  They
went out fine on my system, but the next system down the line filled
its /var/spool/news.  I've just retransmitted them.
From: dsegard@nyx.cs.du.edu (Daniel Segard)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Francis Schaeffer
Date: 16 Dec 92 06:40:54 GMT
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.


      To the best of my knowledge Francis Schaeffer is from a Presbyterian
background.  I believe he was pastor of a church in St Louis, Missouri
prior to moving to Switzerland.  If I recall correctly it was about 1948
when he moved.  His wife's letters home of that time period have been
collected and published in the book WITH LOVE, EDITH, and I'm sure you
could find alot of good background material there.
From: gslade@nowhere.uucp (Greg Slade)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Dating
Date: 20 Dec 92 23:25:57 GMT
Organization: Cyberstore Online Information Systems Inc.

aslt@acad2.alaska.edu wrote:
: I'm sorry, but this is a hot button with me, so I can't just hit 'n' for 
: <not again> on this one...
: 
: The problem I have with these posts is the 'oh-pity-us-poor-deprived-singles' 
: attitude that is implied.   It is not constructive, and in fact helps 
: promote the idea that 'unmarried' is analogous to 'pre-married' and/or
: that the single Christian adult is 'deprived' or 'handicapped' in some way.
: The poor single is therefore an incomplete person deserving of 
: pity and sympathy.
: 
: Bunk.
: 
Well, I might have tried to put it a little more subtly, but AMEN!
It's high time churches forsook the heresy of denying that God is graceful
to the single person as well as to the married.  Was Jesus' life in any way
crippled or incomplete because He was single?  I think not!  It's just as 
wrong to say that marriage is the only proper state for humans as it is to
call marriage some kind of lustful sin to be repented of.

Granted, there are Christians who are not married and desparately want to be,
and they may want "Singles Ministry" to be another word for "Matchmaking" 
(although I suspect that some of them would be better served by counselling:
there is such a thing as wanting something so badly that you make yourself
incapable of receiving it.)  But what most Christian singles need is not
a mate, but support in living in chastity and wholeness as singles -- whether
they stay singles for six months or sixty years.  There is much to be learned
as a single, and trying to get people "paired off" just short-circuits that
learning process... 

: Of course, there is the old story of why everyone wants the single to get
: married - misery loves company.  (that's a joke)

Ooh, nasty!  (But I can't help but smile... :-)
From: christian@geneva.rutgers.edu
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: The Bible & Homosexuality
Date: 13 Dec 92 07:23:50 GMT

JVANRIPER@unca.edu (Joseph E. Van Riper III) would like to make it
clear that an article from his account was simply forwarded from
another source, with a couple of comments added.  He's gotten some
responses assuming that he wrote it.

[I'm sending this myself rather than posting his article, because
he goes on to make comments on a closed subject.]
From: mlinda@novell.com (M'Linda Taylor)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Christian Singles Group?????
Date: 17 Dec 92 05:14:10 GMT
Organization: Novell Inc., Austin, TX.

Sorry if this post is a bit strange, but for some reason
I can't post articles I can only follow up.  Go figure....

I was wondering if there is a *.christian.singles news group?
The only groups I've found so far are a bit......well racy.

If there isn't one should there be?

Love in Christ,
M'Linda

************************************************
*           - Lonestar -                       *
*Internet: mlinda@novell.COM                   *
*UUCP: {ames,sun,apple,amdahl}!novell!mlinda   *
************************************************

[No newsgroup, but there are mailing lists for everything, so there
might be one of singles.  There are probably plenty of singles
here, given that a lot of our readers are in college (and there
are even some old fuddy-duddies like me who are still single).
--clh]
From: aslt@acad2.alaska.edu
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Dating
Date: 17 Dec 92 04:21:07 GMT
Organization: University of Alaska

I'm sorry, but this is a hot button with me, so I can't just hit 'n' for 
<not again> on this one...

The problem I have with these posts is the 'oh-pity-us-poor-deprived-singles' 
attitude that is implied.   It is not constructive, and in fact helps 
promote the idea that 'unmarried' is analogous to 'pre-married' and/or
that the single Christian adult is 'deprived' or 'handicapped' in some way.
The poor single is therefore an incomplete person deserving of 
pity and sympathy.

Bunk.

I am thirty-<ahem> and single-never-been-married and am bemused by those who
would say that I am deprived or handicapped.  Instead, I cannot think of a 
single one of my married friends or acquaintances that I would 
change places with.  In fact, many of _them_ have _my_ pity and compassion.
I have often thanked God that I am NOT in their shoes.

This is my personal opinion, but there is some scriptural base to it.  Read
Paul (I Cor, among others) sometime on the subject.  Also I refer 
you to Matt. 19:10. I think, Peter says something on the matter as 
well (I can't find it, however).  Not to mention Proverbs.

This is not to minimize the influence of the hormonal drives.  (I, of 
all people, wouldn't do that *grin*)  That would be
stupid.  Nor should the desire of those who want to be part of a couple
be trivialized or disregarded.  But the attitude of forming up singles 
groups as 'pre-marriage' groups or 'single encounter' groups to 
assist 'those poor singles' through their 'battered self-esteem' 
and the 'other special problems of singles' under the 'guidance' or
'sponsorship' of 'mature couples' needs to be scrapped. 

I have rarely had problems integrating into groups-whose-members-are-
mostly-couples; perhaps I have been particularly lucky.  (I don't 
think so, because I've done so in several congregations now).     
Even so, singles-oriented groups are a good thing, because, no matter how  
welcome we are in the 'un-single' groups, sometimes those groups' members have 
special problems that don't have much relevance for us, especially 
those with young children, and there are certain groups with 
emphases that we would not be able to make useful contributions to.

Of course, there is the old story of why everyone wants the single to get
married - misery loves company.  (that's a joke)
From: svanegmo@cantor.math.uwaterloo.ca (Stephen Van Egmond)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Atheism -> Christianity
Date: 20 Dec 92 23:15:09 GMT
Organization: University of Waterloo

A little backgorund information on myself would probably be helpful.
First off, I am atheist.  I'm working under the assumption that this
fact will not change any opinons about what I have to say.

My best friend is a strong practising Catholic.  Another very good
friend of mine has lurched back and forth between atheistic and
Catholic views quite often over the past fiew years.  This posting is
regarding my relationship with her.

One of the fastest way to destroy any kind of friendship is to be
sharply critical of the other's views.  When we were starting to get
to know each other, "Liz" and myself got into occasionally VERY heated
debates over religion.  At this point in time, she was in a very
religious state of mind.  She left one argument ready to strangle me
for the contempt I showed for her views (at the very least, it was a
lack of understanding).  My attitude was: tough bananas.

Later on, she brought herself over to a more atheist (perhaps
agnostic) view.  I was pleased about that (although it was never my
objective to 'convert' her), but was worried that she was getting
depressed about it.  During that period, since we did not disagree on
religion, we didn't argue about it, and our relationship prospered.

After an event that seemed to be a relationship's equivalent of World
War 3 (unrelated to this topic), we never spoke for about 6 months.
During that period she reverted back to Catholicism.  After we began
speaking to each other again, we have called a moratorium on religious
debate -- or at least that's what I thought.  Our relationship has
again begun to prosper.

The key to avoiding friction between religious and atheist people is
to avoid the discussion altogether.  I think this is possible in a
serious relationship, and possibly even marriage.

To the people who refused to be around a person merely because of
their (lack) of religion, I think it's time to get rid of your
prejudices and appreciate people for who they are and what lies in
their heart, not their system of beliefs.  I have had very little
difficulty respecting the views of (and being in relationships with)
religious people, as long as these people do not treat me like I've
got some kind of disease.  To emphasize: get rid of your prejudices.

[On a side note, "Liz" has recently sent me a photocopy of an article
from some random Christian magazine taking shots at the theory of
evolution, claiming that it was conclusive proof of god's existence,
and saying I should come to learn big-T Truth.  It seems the debate is
open again!  I think that we feel safe enough in the relationship that
we wouldn't allow a religious debate to get between us.  Thankfully.]

Stephen Van Egmond - University of Waterloo
From: pasward@maytag.uwaterloo.ca (Paul A.S. Ward)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: The Virgin Birth (Re: Preaching to the Moderns)
Date: 13 Dec 92 05:18:12 GMT
Organization: University of Waterloo

In article <Dec.9.00.57.39.1992.7516@geneva.rutgers.edu> mls@panix.com (Michael Siemon) writes:

>And again, I am *not* denying the doctrine.  My "problem" with it is a
>"second order" problem -- I honestly do not comprehend why anyone CARES
>about this putative act of divine bioengineering.

As a doctrine it does not really make any difference.  However, I must
believe it because if I do not, I render Matthew and Luke to be fiction
writers.  How can I believe anything else they write, when their gospels
start with a fiction?
From: ummak027@ccu.umanitoba.ca (Anson Sen Sau Mak)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Wedding Scripture Verses.
Date: 17 Dec 92 05:15:27 GMT
Organization: University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada

You can try Song Of Songs, since this are a lot of scripture about love;
when my church friends got married, they always choose scriptures from there.

Congragulation for your coming wedding!

In Him,
Anson
From: amadeus@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Susan Harwood Kaczmarczik)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Christmas on the 25th.  Why? (was Re: Messianic Jews and
Date: 17 Dec 92 05:15:21 GMT
Organization: University of Texas at Austin

Dan Lieuwen writes:
>December 25th as Christmas:
>
>
>According to Conarias' Introduction to the Orthodox Church, the dating
>for Christmas and the dating for the feast day of John the Baptist are
>related.
>
>John the Baptist's saying "He must increase and I must decrease" is
>symbolically represented in the liturgical year by having John the
>Baptist's feast day on the longest day of the year, and Christmas on
>the shortest.  So after Christmas , the amount of light is increasing.
>After John's feast day, it is decreasing.
>
>It is also symbolic that Jesus came into a world of darkness.  His coming
>brings the light.

Most pagan religions have some form of dualistic god-form, one who
rules the waxing year and one who rules the waning year.  It is usual
for the god to be reborn at the winter solstice, and for the god who
represents the waning year to be born at the summer solstice.  This of
course is an allegory for the seasonal changes wrought by the
shortening and lengthening of the days as the earth moves closer and
further from the sun.

It is not at all surprising that Jesus and John the Baptist's feast
days (which may or may not be their actual birthdays) would be
observed at these times (or actually a few days afterwards, on a fixed
day, which of course the solstices are not).

Please note: I give you this information not to gainsay the fact that
either of these men were actually born, but rather to point out that
the days chosen as their "birthdays" most certainly have more to do
with older seasonal observances than anything else.

Reference:  _The Golden Bough_ by Sir James Frazer

>Dan

-- 
-----Susan Harwood Kaczmarczik-------------------------------*<:-)-------------
"Queens never make bargains."  -- The Red Queen, _Through the Looking Glass_
-----amadeus@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu--------------The University of Texas @Austin---
From: mdw@cbnewsg.cb.att.com (mark.d.wuest)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: MAX LUCADO'S _GOD_CAME_NEAR_
Date: 20 Dec 92 22:32:13 GMT
Organization: AT&T

Well, you probably got flooded but, just in case you didn't:

The "essential" Max Lucado book is "No Wonder They Call Him the Savior".

"In the Eye of the Storm" is excellent, also, BTW.

FWIW, I give a copy of "No Wonder They Call Him the Savior" to everyone
I disciple (I took advantage of the special price at CBD, who probably
has all of Lucado's books in stock). Does that count as a recommendation?

Mark
-- 
Mark Wuest                              |     *MY* opinions, not AT&T's!!
mdw@violin.att.com (Sun Mailtool Ok)    |
mdw@cheshire.att.com (NeXT Mail)        |
From: armstrng@cs.dal.ca (Stan Armstrong)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re:Curses
Date: 13 Dec 92 05:12:14 GMT
Organization: Math, Stats & CS, Dalhousie University, Halifax, NS, Canada

I do not know much about curses, but I believe that they may exist.
but you must remember that it is not Christ that gives them.  I imagine that
when you were saved that you asked for Christs forgiveness.  This may seem
extreme but you may find it liberating to ask forgiveness for each
specific involvement in the occult which may be still weighing heavy on you.

In regards to the notion that no one can love you.  I've felt that way
before.  All my life I felt like an outsider.  I always had alot of 
assotiations,but never really felt that anyone appreciated me, or could
truly love me.  I had done soom terrible things in my past and these
fellings may stemmfrom my past.  God has just begun to put impostant people
in my life. A husband,a duaghter and some friends that truly care about me,
but for once I too am actually caring and loving back.  In a sincere way.

I really believe that God has a plan for your life.  He can use your
knowledege of the occult to help others that are involved in it. I know that
God will also give you some people that you can love,but it may take some
getting to really learn to love others without expecting love in return.
It seems you are hust because no one loves you.  You are not the only one
who feels this way and perhaps you can reach out and help anouther lonely
person-they are every where. If you do this you will begin to love youself
Nadine
-- 
Nadine Armstrong.  Bedford, Nova Scotia, Canada
att!clyde!watmath!water!dalcs!armstrng
From: whheydt@pbhya.pacbell.com (Wilson Heydt)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Is Christianity really the ONLY way?
Date: 20 Dec 92 22:32:04 GMT
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA

In article <Dec.16.23.26.21.1992.9456@farside.rutgers.edu>, REXLEX@linac.fnal.gov writes:
> One of these is the exclusivity of the teachings of Christ and the
> Apostles that show me that Xianity is truly from God.  

It hardly follows from claims of exclusivity that the message must be
true.

One would be more surprised at the *absence* of religions making such
claims than their existence.  

If it is such claims that convinces you to remain a Christian, I
susggest that your belief is on very shaky ground indeed.

	--Hal
-- 
Hal Heydt                    |    
Analyst, Pacific*Bell        |            You!
510-823-5447                 |    Out of the Gene Pool!
whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM    |
From: kmarko@hpbs654.boi.hp.com (Kurt Marko)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Francis Schaeffer
Date: 15 Dec 92 09:10:54 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard / Boise, Idaho

On recommendation of a good friend, I am starting to read a few books
by Francis Schaeffer.  Aside from the somewhat terse biographies on
the book jackets, I'm wondering if someone could fill in some
background on his life and work.  What Protestant 'tradition' does he
come from?  Has he had influence on any denomination in particular?
Anything else I should know? :) 

(I apologize for the vagueness, coming from an Orthodox background I'm
just not too familiar with many modern Protestant theologians,
although, from what I have heard about him, some of his thoughts on
spirituality, sound fairly 'orthodox').

Thanks in advance,

Kurt Marko
From: jte@psi.com (John Eldredge)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Sexuality (was: Re: REFRESH)
Date: 17 Dec 92 05:20:33 GMT
Organization: Performance Systems International, Inc. Reston Virginia.

In article <Dec.11.01.37.25.1992.12500@athos.rutgers.edu> ragraca@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Randy A. Graca) writes:
>>I gather that the bible never comes right out and says it either way.

Christ makes the connection between thought and action clear in the 
Beatitudes of Matthew 5 =>  It is not enough to merely perform (or not
perform) certain acts, but to change our thoughts and attitudes as well.

Hate equals murder, and is condemned.  Lustful thoughts equals adultery,
and is condemned.  The problem of masturbation is principally one of 
thoughts.  If I amn married, and fantasize about my spouse, it is hard
to condemn the act.  However, if my solitary solution involves thoughts
of a person I am not married to, be they married or not, it is impossible 
to sanction.

And this doesn't even begin the dicussion of cause/effect, thought leading
to action - yet a more serious calamity.

If I believe that I, as a believer, am expected to bring every thought 
into captivity to Christ, my thought options are very narrow.  As common
and widespread of a scenario as masturbation is, the Biblical injunction 
against much of it seems quite clear.

John