HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: millsm@nextnet.csus.edu (Matthew Mills)
Subject: Re: trepidations of a longtime Mac user
Organization: California State University Sacramento
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1992 22:41:33 GMT

In article: <81327@ut-emx.uucp> Douglas Floyd writes:
> This morning, I went to scan a graphic for Pipeline, and merely
> turned a //si that the university had.  The thing crashed.  I

This Macintosh, was it used by lots of different people?  Macs are
very user friendly but in an open-lab environment they are reduced to
ruins in a matter of hours.  There are so many bells and whistles, and
public-domain extensions available that people can "tweak" a Mac to
death.  The problem is so severe in the education environment that
Apple has packaged a version of the finder that can prevent this over
tweaking.
  Sorry for the lecture, it has been a constant battle for me working
at my university.  What I wanted to say was that you should not put
down an operating system that has been exposed to this "Public
Entropy".  Its not a fault in the system, its just the way of the world.

Matthew

-- 
| Matthew Mills                       | To do is to be - Socrates 
| Technical Lab Assistant (CSUS)      | To be is to do - Plato
| mail-> millsm@csus.edu              | Do Be Do Be Do - Sinatra
From: mike_steiner@qm.claris.com (Mike Steiner)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: A-MaxII+ ?
Date: 13 Oct 92 22:54:59 GMT
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy

In article <1992Oct12.234838.6037@rmece49.upr.clu.edu>,
raist@rmece02.upr.clu.edu (Ricardo Hernandez | 802-36-4453) wrote:
> 
> In article <1992Oct12.231915.22271@gn.ecn.purdue.edu>, jess@gn.ecn.purdue.edu (Jess M Holle) writes:
> [stuff deleted]
> |> You should keep your mouth shut when you are clueless.  7.1 is out in beta
> |> only.  It is due for release in 1 week.  It is NOT being shipped with
> |> Quadras currently (7.0.1 is).
> |> 
> |> >wwarner@en.ecn.purdue.edu            IBM, Apple, Sun, & Next make it expensive!
> |> 
> |> Yes, but I have some faith that at least 3 of them will still be a force in 
> |> a few years.  I cannot say this for Amiga.
> |> 
> |> Jess Holle
> |> jess@ecn.purdue.edu
> 
>   While I don't comment on the previous Quadra flames, as I don't know for sure,
> you definitively don't know about the Amiga's Video market share.  Even the
> Mac uses a Toaster!
> 
> - Raist
> 
>   Yes, Amiga will be here for a long time to come.  At least Amiga users can run
> all the OS releases properly, unlike the System 7 on a poor Mac Plus or Classic I.

It appears that you don't know what you're talking about.  I run System 7
on a Mac Plus and on an SE at home all the time.  Please stop spreading
these untruths.

+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Now that I have a reader that can do .sigs, I can't think of a witty |
|one to put here, so I won't.  All normal disclaimers apply.          |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
From: johnsd2@vccnw05.its.rpi.edu (Daniel Norman Johnson)
Subject: Re: More Defense of CLI (there, I changed the subject ... )
Reply-To: johnsd2@rpi.edu
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy, NY.
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1992 13:54:19 GMT

In article <6219.2addb716@hayes.com>, bcoleman@hayes.com (Bill Coleman) writes:
|> In article <jb2z4q#@rpi.edu>, johnsd2@vccnw04.its.rpi.edu (Daniel Norman Johnson) writes:
|> > 
|> > Nope. Quite relevant. Everyone can can walk; not everyone can bike.
|> >
|> 
|> Daniel,

Really? Are you sure? [Ya know, you dont usually address your
articles like this. Is it just me, or are you trying to say something
by this?]

|> I'd just like to point out that not everyone can walk. Most people can.
|> There are people with various spinal injuries, amputees, people with
|> various nerve disorders and the elderly find it quite difficult to
|> walk.
|> 
|> By the same token, those who can't walk would find it much harder to
|> ride a bike, even.

And there are blind people who (therefore) can't use GUIs.

This is completely, and utterly, not to mention totally, irrelevant
to this discussion.

|> (Then there's my father in law's story of a guy in WW II who got so drunk
|>  every night that he couldn't stand, yet he managed to ride his motorcycle
|>  back to the base....)

This is strange+wierd, but also irrelevent.

-- 
			- Dan Johnson
And God said "Jeeze, this is dull"... and it *WAS* dull. Genesis 0:0

These opinions have had all identifiying marks removed, and are untraceable.
You'll never know whose they are.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: smytonj@pell4l7.alleg.edu (James Smyton)
Subject: What is 7.1?
Organization: Allegheny College
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1992 17:08:49 GMT

	Could someone explain what System 7.1 is or will be?  I'm new to  
this network, and I'm reading 7.1 this and 7.1 that.  Right now I am  
running 7.0.1 on a IIcx and would like to know if 7.1 will be worth  
upgrading to and why.

Thanks to anyone who can help,
Jim Smyton

--
J S  (smytonj@alleg.edu)

Sometimes ya just gotta grab life by the teeth and yank as hard as you  
can.		-Weird Al
From: bc@Apple.COM (bill coderre)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Object-oriented technology (was Re: Macs are the best!)
Date: 8 Oct 92 00:31:10 GMT
Organization: Apple Computer Inc., Cupertino, CA

Interface builders for Mac:

For this discussion, an interface builder is a program that you draw
your dialogs, buttons, scroll-dinguses, etc, and it generates the
right code and resources to drive them. You then have to write the
code to make this interface do something.

Prototyper and AppMaker are both highly regarded, and operate with a
bunch of programming languages: C, C++, MacApp C++, Pascal, MacApp
Pascal, etc.

With MacApp, you can use IcePick, a pretty darn good interface builder.
I think there's another one for MacApp, too.

If you like Lisp, Mac Common Lisp has a nice interface builder in its
sample library.

On another topic:

Hypercard a "joke"? Well, more contract dollars for ME.
I've done TCP-based transcation-processing apps (think: automatic
teller machine) using Hypercard in HOURS not weeks. Joke's on you,
buddy. I'm a much richer programmer for it.

bill coderre
facts are, opinions are, none belong to apple
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: johnsd2@vccnw05.its.rpi.edu (Daniel Norman Johnson)
Subject: Re: specifically comparing NeXT with Mac...
Reply-To: johnsd2@rpi.edu
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy, NY.
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1992 14:50:58 GMT

In article <1992Oct16.070548.8827@leland.Stanford.EDU>, spagiola@frinext.stanford.edu (Stefano Pagiola) writes:
|> Jess M Holle writes
|> >>2-bit greyscale gives you 8 shades of gray ...  
|> > 
|> >By what sort of math do you derive this????
|> >   1 bit -> 2   shades
|> >   2 bit -> 4   shades
|> >   3 bit -> 8   shades
|> >   n bit -> 2^n shades (then subtract bits used for alpha channels)
|> 
|> OK, if you want to be technical, yes there are 4 shades, but  
|> dithering adds in intermediate shades by mixing grids of the  
|> adjoining shades.  I guess that adds up to 7 shades.  Given the very  
|> high resolution of the NeXT monitor, you have to really stick your  
|> eye up against the screen to notice that some of these shades are  
|> actually dithered.  So for all practical purposes, its 7 shades.

But doesn't this reduce the effective resolution, making
it harder to show details?

I mean, its not a big deal but I wouldn't say ALL practical
purposes. (just most of 'em)
-- 
			- Dan Johnson
And God said "Jeeze, this is dull"... and it *WAS* dull. Genesis 0:0

These opinions have had all identifiying marks removed, and are untraceable.
You'll never know whose they are.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: andy@research.canon.oz.au (Andy Newman)
Subject: Re: the NeXT option (Was Re: 7.1 vs. OS/2 and Windows NT)
Organization: Canon Information Systems Research Australia
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 07:52:55 GMT

ckd@eff.org (Christopher Davis) writes:
>Barry> == Barry McConnell <bmccnnll@unix1.tcd.ie> 
>
> Barry> On the Amiga, you use the Forbid() .. Permit() combination to
> Barry> "turn off" multitasking. In effect, you are back down to
> Barry> co-operative multitasking, in that you can hold the entire
> Barry> system at your mercy via this method. I would thus consider
> Barry> pre-emptive multitasking a superset of co-operative
> Barry> multitasking, and hence there is no valid argument for *not*
> Barry> having it! ;-)
>
>No, this is cooperative multitasking with a pre-emptive option, because
>you're still depending on programs to behave properly.

True but no one thinks about it this way. In most (if not all) real
time kernels there very often needs to be some way to defeat the usual
scheduler for when you really want to do something and not get context
switched on (like accessing a system data structure that the next
process may want to mess with.) The Amiga's OS is built around a
little real-time kernel.
-- 
Andy Newman (andy@research.canon.oz.au)
"Giving money and power to governments is like giving whiskey and
 car keys to teenage boys" - P.J.O'Rourke
From: bcoleman@hayes.com (Bill Coleman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: IBM Funny
Date: 8 Oct 92 18:35:17 EDT
Organization: Hayes Microcomputer Products, Norcross, GA

In article <1nszz0-@rpi.edu>, johnsd2@jec314.its.rpi.edu (Daniel Norman Johnson) writes:
> 
> I think I have made my feelings on this very clear.
> Pre-emptive multitasking is Good. I just deny that this renders co-operative 
> multitasking useless or nonfunctional.
> 
> I also think that multithreading and memory protection are Good Things.

Daniel.

Interesting. I agree wholeheartedly that memory protection is a Good Thing.

Technically, cooperative multitasking and preemptive multitasking need not
be distinguishable, if all elements of the system cooperate correctly. 

Unfortunately, some items do not. (eg floppy disk formatting) Therefore 
preemptive tasking is looked at as a Good Thing. In actuality, what is
really needed is Good Multitasking -- regardless of the technology.

Remember, it is possible to build a poor preemptive multitasking system.

Finally, multithreading is overblown. I for one don't want to have to
deal with threaded applications. I've written one, and it was a bear to
test and debug.

No thank you. I'd just as soon keep my applications as single threaded as
possible. 

-- 
Bill Coleman, AA4LR                ! CIS: 76067,2327    AppleLink: D1958
Principal Software Engineer        ! Packet Radio: AA4LR @ W4QO
Hayes Microcomputer Products, Inc. ! UUCP: uunet!hayes!bcoleman
POB 105203 Atlanta, GA 30348 USA   ! Internet: bcoleman%hayes@uunet.uu.net
Disclaimer: "My employer doesn't pay me to have opinions."
Quote: "The same light shines on vineyards that makes deserts." -Steve Hackett.
From: cj00+@andrew.cmu.edu (Carl B Jabido)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: 7.1 vs. OS/2 and Windows NT
Date: 16 Oct 92 16:04:08 GMT
Article-I.D.: andrew.gerpVsi00WBO86yZhi
Organization: Sophomore, Math/Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA

Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.mac.advocacy: 15-Oct-92 Re: 7.1 vs. OS/2
and Window.. by Edward V. Wright@convex. 
> If memory protection made things that much easier, we'd see a
> lot more developers developing under A/UX.

There's no logic to that, the major factor against A/UX is price.  It's
not bundled with the base Macintosh package, and so the average Joe
Idiot Mac user doesn't use it.
From: bcoleman@hayes.com (Bill Coleman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why Macs are better (and the others aren't)
Date: 9 Oct 92 10:43:34 EDT
Organization: Hayes Microcomputer Products, Norcross, GA

In article <TOMSTER.92Oct4193442@wpi.WPI.EDU>, tomster@wpi.WPI.EDU (Thomas Richard Dibble) writes:
> In article <1992Oct2.045258.27262@tamsun.tamu.edu> sfuller@tamsun.tamu.edu (Steven Eric Fuller) writes:
> 
>    Macs can run: MacOS, A/UX, Minix, MachTen, MacMach, OS/9. 
> 
> Well, then.  Jesus, do I have to name *all* the os's you can run on
> a pc?  If you want, give me a week and I'll mail you a list.  I won't
> post one because I really don't think many people wish to hear about
> all of them.

Are there really so many? Or are most just variations on a theme? Just because
fifteen companies that have a different name to a Unix clone doesn't make it
a different operating system. 

I'd hazard to guess there are fewer than 10 DISTINCT OSs for the PC. There's
little motivation to produce hundreds of unique OSs, unless each gives a 
significant advantage -- which has been shown exceedingly difficult to do.

Can you produce a list of more than 10?

-- 
Bill Coleman, AA4LR                ! CIS: 76067,2327    AppleLink: D1958
Principal Software Engineer        ! Packet Radio: AA4LR @ W4QO
Hayes Microcomputer Products, Inc. ! UUCP: uunet!hayes!bcoleman
POB 105203 Atlanta, GA 30348 USA   ! Internet: bcoleman%hayes@uunet.uu.net
Disclaimer: "My employer doesn't pay me to have opinions."
Quote: "The same light shines on vineyards that makes deserts." -Steve Hackett.
From: dvan@spumco.cts.com (David Vandeven)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: OPINION POLL: Preemptive or not?
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 92 20:05:25 PDT
Organization: SPUMCO:Better living through wasted time
Reply-To: dvan@spumco.cts.com (David Vandeven)
Distribution: world
Keywords: poll,preemptive,spam
Summary: What is a summary for?  What newsreader uses it?
X-Mailer: uAccess - Mac Release: 1.5

Hello comp.sys.mac.advocacy!  I have my node back up and I am now a fully
operational site again.  I missed about a week and a half of the flamage
here.  (So if there were any comments directed to me, send via email.)

I'm taking an opinion poll on the subject of preemption. The question is as
follows:

		Should the Mac OS support preemptive multitasking?

Please email dvan@spumco.cts.com with your answer.  The first line should
be a dollar sign ($) followed by your answer in capital letters. (YES) or
(NO).

If you wish to add any comments or questions or justifications for your
answer just include them after the line containing your vote.  I will
compile the results of my poll after a week, and post it here.

I am in no way afilliated with Apple, so this poll is strictly for
informative purposes.  

Happy computing!

                         * Chief Systems Administrator: SPUMCO *
 David Vandeven    ********************************************************
Systems Progammer  *   "I don't believe in Pinochle, I don't believe I'll *
    Deadhead       * try: I do believe in Captain Crunch, for I am the    *
    Cyberpunk      * Frizzle Fry!"  (dvan@spumco.cts.com)      *PRIMUS!*  *
Zen Agnostic Guru  ********************************************************
From: smills@news.weeg.uiowa.edu (MuffinHead)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why a mac over a PC?
Date: 9 Oct 92 04:48:28 GMT
Organization: University of Iowa, Iowa City, IA, USA

<WXT106@psuvm.psu.edu> writes:

>There is a kind of formation in my school.  All the mac users hated IBMs and al
>l the IBM users dislike the macs.  Therefore, there were always arguments.  We
>came up with some really good reasons, but I want to listen to the netters and
>see what everyoone likes to say about about the stupid, clumsy and useless IBM
>PCs, I am a mac user and I love what I have.  So anyone has any thing to say, p
>ost it and I can tell those IBM users.

   The one thing I've found that is still consistent today is that on a Mac
all app's work the same (key-equivs, mouse, windows, etc) where on a DOS box
you have to learn how to use each app and almost none work the same way. You 
can use almost ANY Mac app without ever opening a manual.
   The other thing important to me is that Mac output is *exactly* the same
as the screen rendering. Not true with many DOS graphics, word processing,
and page layout programs I've used.
   And this is my personaly opinion which matters very much to lots of people:
Macs look cool.
From: ibhan@husc8.harvard.edu (Ishir Bhan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: specifically comparing NeXT with Mac...
Date: 15 Oct 92 22:15:46 GMT
Article-I.D.: husc8.ibhan.719187346

I've been debating whether or not to buy a NeXT for a while now.  Chances
are I'll buy a new computer at the end of the month.  But it seems that
I'll be getting a Mac rather than a NeXT.  Probably a Mac IIvx.  Why?
1)Steep price: though you get a lot for the money, much of it is useless
to me.  To get color, you need to spend at least $6000 (with an edu.
discount) on the NeXT.  It's a lot cheaper on the Mac.  
2)Lack of bit depth: The NeXT's in the IIvx price range only have
greyscale, and it's only 2-bit greyscale.  That's a pretty limited range.
3)Lack of upgradability: the NeXTStations don't have slots.  You can't buy
a NeXTStation and upgrade to a NeXTStation color.  There are reliable
rumors that there will be PowerPC boards for the IIvx and such, and thatat
least some PowerPC models will share the same box as the IIvx, and one may
also be able to upgrade a IIvx directly to a PPC model from Apple.

I like the NeXT a lot, but these limitations are severe enough to prevent
me from buying one.  What do you all think?


-- 
             --      Ishir Bhan (ibhan@husc.harvard.edu)      --
From: aad35939@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (A A DeGuzman)
Subject: Re: trepidations of a longtime Mac user
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1992 21:11:44 GMT

Attention netters:

All of this anecdotal evidence means nothing. Absolutely nothing. One person
can recall his/her story of crashing platform AAAA x-number of times, and
platform BBBB only y-number of times in the same period. Then someone comes
back with another story that contradicts the first one.

Big deal. Let's face it - *all* machines crashed. I work with Macs, NeXTs,
Suns, IBMs and clones, and I've crashed them *all* (most of them spectacular
take-downs of the whole operating system!).

A system is only as stable as it's worst application.
-- 
Alan A. DeGuzman                Calvin:  "I live according to one principle
Calculus&Mathematica                      and I never deviate from it."
DISCLAIMER: "The University     Hobbes:  "What's your principle?"
can't afford my opinions."      Calvin: "'Look out for number one.'"
From: derek@cgrg.ohio-state.edu (Dariusz Bolski)
Subject: Re: <None>
Organization: OSU Advanced Computing Center for the Arts and Design
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 00:15:36 GMT

In article <CKD.92Oct14154234@loiosh.eff.org> ckd@eff.org (Christopher Davis) writes:
>
>So the Mac is actually more keyboard-friendly than Unix :) :) :)

Since some claim there is no need to use keyboard too ofthen, the keyboard
is definitely very happy that it doesn't work too much :-)

>Christopher K. Davis      |       NET.INSIGHTS INTO ARTISTIC CRITICISM:

Dariusz Bolski
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: derek@cgrg.ohio-state.edu (Dariusz Bolski)
Subject: Re: A-MaxII+ ?
Organization: OSU Advanced Computing Center for the Arts and Design
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 00:12:49 GMT

In article <mike_steiner-141092124634@192.35.50.131> mike_steiner@qm.claris.com (Mike Steiner) writes:
>> 
>> Ps. Amiga 2000 is only a 7 MHz 68000 machine, yet most folks still
>>    preferred it to IIsi. What do you say?
>
>That they would rather play games than work. :-) <--NOTE THE SMILEY!

With this I can agree wholeheartedly :-)

Dariusz Bolski
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: ewright@convex.com (Edward V. Wright)
Subject: Re: 7.1 vs. OS/2 and Windows NT
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 16:58:37 GMT
Organization: Engineering, CONVEX Computer Corp., Richardson, Tx., USA
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

In <1992Oct14.234816.19447@leland.Stanford.EDU> kocks@jessica.stanford.edu (Peter Kocks) writes:

>Excuse me?  Memory protection "may not help" to target bugs?  You must
>be totally dreaming, or you never programmed in C.  Ever leak a little
>memory?  I used to program my mac ci in c and every once in a while I
>would mess (by accident) with the a region of memory that I was not
>supposed to be in.  

Um, this is not a memory leak, it's an illegal write (probably due
to a stray pointer).  A memory leak is when a program allocates
memory and then forgets to deallocate it when it's no longer needed.

>The ci would crash. I would wait 1 minute while
>rebooting and then I would carefully trace the execution of the
>program until just before the crash.  On any unix-like system, you
>simply run the program in a debugger, when the program crashes (not
>the os) you type "where" (aka gdb) and the debugger tells you exactly
>where the crash occured.  You can then look at memory, the core dump etc.

On any Macintosh, you can do exactly the same thing, except the
debugger is called Macsbug (or TMON or whatever) instead of gdb.
True, you're dead in the water if your stray pointer happens to
clobber the debugger, but the chances of this happening are pretty
small since debuggers usually don't take much memory.

If memory protection made things that much easier, we'd see a
lot more developers developing under A/UX.

>Also, why did system 7 need to be "outrageously" tested?  Perhaps
>because in the Mac when a bug occurs, the system crashes.

Poppycock.  I'd be surprised if 10% of all bugs resulted in system
crashes. And since Apple's testers were undoubtedly running Macsbug,
a system crash would be very little difference in their ability to
figure out what happened.  Furthermore, if the OS has a bug that
causes it a crash, it makes little difference whether you have
memory protection or not.  MacPaint may be able to crash while
your other apps continue running.  The OS can't.
From: runeh@dhhalden.no (RUNE HALFDAN HOLST HUSEBY)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why Macs are better (and the others aren't) (long)
Date: 12 Oct 92 21:27:33 GMT
Organization: Ostfold College

In article <mike_steiner-061092134343@192.35.50.131> mike_steiner@qm.claris.com (Mike Steiner) writes:
>From: mike_steiner@qm.claris.com (Mike Steiner)
>Subject: Re: Why Macs are better (and the others aren't) (long)
>Date: 6 Oct 92 20:48:27 GMT
>In article <TOMSTER.92Sep30202903@banzai.WPI.EDU>, tomster@banzai.WPI.EDU
>(Thomas Richard Dibble) wrote:
>> 
>> In article <1a8i5gINNfvm@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> cd248@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Richard Sherman) writes:
>
>>    I have another question for you:
>> 
>>    Can your IBM 3.5 drives tell the difference between 720K and 1.4 meg disks and
>>    format them accordingly?
>> 
>>     NO.  They can't.  If you stick a 720K disk into an HD drive,  the drive will
>>    try to format it as a 1.4 meg disk.  YOU have to tell the computer to format it
>>    as 720K.
>> 
>>    A Macintosh can tell what kind of disk you have in it, and what file system
>>    it's from. You don't have to tell it anything.
>> 
....
>I don't know.  However, with a Mac, when you put in a formatted disk, the
>computer knows the capacity of the disk and whether it is Mac MFS, Mac HFS,
>ProDOS, or MS/PC DOS.  Admittedly, if you don't have PC Exchange, DOS
>Mounter, or AccessPC, you have to do this under Apple File Exchange--but
>you don't need any extra hardware.
>

If MAC's are so damned clever, how come that our Mac's try to boot from
the scanner? Actually, we have to make sure the scanner is off whenever 
we have to restart the Mac (which happen quite often), or else the Mac 
reports a disk error!

Besides, why can't that shitty System 7 catch Divide By Zero errors?
Mac's the only machines I know of which totally crashes when an application 
divides by zero.


                               }  } {  {
/-------------------------------}  }  { /----------------------------------\
| Rune Halfdan Holst Huseby      }  {  |  S-Mail: Atomveien 18             |
|  ____________________________   }{   |          1777 HALDEN              |
| (_____(_runeh@dhhalden.no____###)    |          NORWAY                   |
|-------------------------------------/ \----------------------------------|
| Real programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers are around   |
| at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.                            |
\--------------------------------------------------------------------------/
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy