HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: lbs@tkmhp4.physik.uni-karlsruhe.de (Lech Borkowski)
Subject: Re: Violent antisemitism?
Reply-To: lbs@tkm.physik.uni-karlsruhe.de
Organization: University of Karlsruhe, Germany
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 08:40:42 GMT

In article <goldberg.716539001@techunix.technion.ac.il> goldberg@techunix.technion.ac.il (Jacques Goldberg) writes:
>lbs@madeira.phys.ufl.edu (Lech Borkowski) writes:
>
>> I would like to add that while making comparisons between the fraction
>>of Jews saved in France or Denmark and in Poland you should remember
>>that the German occupation rules were mild in France
>>compared to Poland or Russia. A common penalty for saving Jews
>>in Poland during the occupation was execution of the whole family
>>that attempted to save them.

>    ABSOLUTELY CORRECT. Indeed I was once saved by a person whose son-in-law
>had been shot before for having done the same. So there was perhaps a  rule
>in France that they would not shoot inlaws. 
>    Note however that in Denmark there has been a King ( one that deserves
>a capital K), and in France, very early, a very well organised underground
>movement (which by the way included a high percentage of Jews). After WW-II
>I studied in the Paris "Jacques Decour" high school, named after the 
>underground name of Daniel Decourdemanche, a student shot by the nazis as
>early as Fall 1940.

>     Jacques Goldberg

 That in Denmark the King was allowed relatively high degree
of independence just proves that the Nazis had Denmark
way down on their "list of priorities".  Had they chosen
to put an end to his activity it would be a trivial exercise
for the Nazi forces. 
 Many people from Poland were forced to do slave labor
in Germany. My father's name was on the list of slave laborers.
When he didn't show up for the transport to Germany, 
the occupiers put my grandfather to prison for several months.
Of course without asking any questions. He was lucky to get
out alive. You can guess it was not a vacation there in prison. 
My uncle was a slave laborer in Germany.
 How many Frenchmen or other West-Europeans were forced to do slave 
labor in Germany?

 It wasn't due to the French resistance movement that
the Nazis treated France better - the resistance
movement in Poland was largest of all Nazi-occupied countries. 
It was due to the Nazi policy how they treated various countries. 
After the Jews the Slavs were next, 
The Nazis saw a different role for the West European countries.
 
 It is impossible to describe in few words the whole occupation.
Then we end up either throwing numbers or presenting
individual cases.

Let me just add that for my family the war ended in 1956.
How is that possible you might ask? Hint: The area were
my family lived was taken over by the Soviet Union after
the war. But that doesn't belong to the subject of Polish-Jewish
relations...

 Lech Borkowski 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: tjm@hrt213.brooks.af.mil (Tim Miller)
Subject: Re: Jews in space.
Organization: AL/HRTI, Brooks AFB, TX 
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 18:37:30 GMT

On Fri, 11 Sep 1992, rogerp@hpnmdla.sr.hp.com (Roger Pollard) said:

 R> In article <> aplebaum@shum.huji.ac.il (Hillel Applebaum) writes:
    >In article <17205@ulysses.att.com>, smb@ulysses.att.com (Steven
     Bellovin) writes:
    >Is it realy so ? will you have a SHABAT after 6 martian days ? 
    >Will you DAVEN MAA'RIV on martian sunset ?
    >I don't think so.

 R> Many years ago (before the problem became a "real" one) I had heard
 R> that one artifically maintained the time (for halchic purposes) of
 R> the place you left (i.e Cape Canaveral, or wherever else they launch
 R> these things from).

	This makes perfect sense as long as you stay in orbit or on
bodies with, shall we say, "inconvenient" rotations (i.e., much too long
or short).  What happens on a body like Mars, where planetary rotation
is close enough to Eath's that it is possible to adopt the local day as
a standard for activity?  If you maintain an arbitrary day under these
conditions, the times for davening will shift relative to the rest of
your activites, until you end up waking up in the wee hours of the
morning to daven maariv.  Bit of a problem, no?

	On a further note, adopting the local day plays hell with the
calendar.  Even if you keep a 1:1 correspondence of days, the different
period of local day will slowly shift the calendar around...

	I see two options: simply adopting everything over to the local
time scales, tossing out all relations to earth-based timescales (i.e.,
keep the calendar and local day, but don't worry if you're having Seder
on Mars when everyone on Earth is celebrating Rosh Hashana), or keep to
an arbitrary earth-centric timescale (which means prayer times shift
about relative to local times, but the holidays stay simultaneous with
Earth). 

	Neither are really attractive options, IMHO.  Comments?

-- Cerebus <tjm@hrt213.brooks.af.mil> <cerebus@csa.bu.edu>
"I love playing with concepts like this.  ;)"

Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: baker@ROBOCOP.NYU.EDU (Jonathan Baker)
Subject: Re: Orthodox monopoly
Organization: New York University
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 20:04:53 GMT



baker@ROBOCOP.NYU.EDU (Jonathan Baker) writes:

>Jordan brings up some interesting points.

>1. About Conservative rabbis & niddah.  I don't know what rationale they 
>have.  There is no obstacle to a Conservative rabbi observing niddah, as
>Robert Gordis (o"h) says -- 

but, Jonathan adds,

>          in all but the right-wing Orthodox communities,
>there is no complete social segregation between men and women because of
>niddah.  In his own Orthodox shul, he has not seen a woman refuse to shake
>a man's proffered hand.  

First of all, I specifically asked what the practice is among Conservative
*rabbis*, because it is obvious that among all 3 groups there is often a lax
attitude among the laymen with regard to one or another ritual that they are
supposed to observe in theory.  Also, when I mentioned the laws of Niddah, I
meant specifically the prohibition against *intercourse* when the woman is a 
niddah.

>Niddah is not talked about much even in Orthodox
>circles -- it's very private, and still viewed as somewhat "dirty", as it's
>connected with sex.  Also, it has no explanation other than "G-d said so."
>All the books I've seen about it either describe the halachos for it, or
>are apologetics for it.  I have not seen any studies, either among Orthodox
>or Conservative, of how many people still observe it.

I don't see how all of this is relevant to the discussion.

>        |        '    '             Jonathan J. Baker
From: lbs@madeira.phys.ufl.edu (Lech Borkowski)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Nazi camps
Date: 6 Sep 92 18:31:17 GMT
Organization: University of Florida Physics Department - CMT Group

In article <87072@netnews.upenn.edu> kkniaz@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Krzysztof W. Kniaz) writes:
>In article <matthew.714799780@mugga> matthew@stats.mu.oz.au (Matthew Zalbiciewski) writes:
>
>>I believe that 6 million Poles perished in WWII, around the same
>>number as Jews. Please tell me I'm wrong Sam.
>>

>You're wrong: 6 million POLISH CITIZENS have been killed during the WWII,
>most of them were polish Jews.

 The estimates are that 2.6 to 2.9 million of Polish Jews
have been killed. 

 Lech Borkowski

Xref: sparky soc.culture.jewish:15469 soc.culture.polish:2414
From: lbs@madeira.phys.ufl.edu (Lech Borkowski)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.polish
Subject: Re: Nazi camps
Date: 7 Sep 92 03:53:42 GMT
Followup-To: soc.culture.jewish
Organization: University of Florida Physics Department - CMT Group

In article <1992Sep3.124337.16897@cbnewsl.cb.att.com> saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (samuel.saal) writes:
>In article <87748@netnews.upenn.edu> kkniaz@eniac.seas.upenn.edu
>(Krzysztof W. Kniaz) writes:

>>In article <1992Sep2.165613.18689@cbnewsl.cb.att.com>
>>saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (samuel.saal) writes:

>>Nor is mnie, but shall I remind you what sparked the whole discussion?
>>Someone posted a letter to the canadian newspaper , protesting 
>>against the expression" Polish Death Camps", instead of the correct form
>>"Nazi-German Death Camps"; and what did you do? You said : Canadian
>>Newspaper should keep writing about Polish Death Camps, because of the
>>Polish complicity in the holocaust. Now that is a blunt distortion!

>Your record is unblemished.  In addition to distorting 50 year old
>history, you are able to distort 5 day old history.  All I was saying
>was that the newspaper's choice of words was technically,
>syntatctically, and semantically correct and defensible.  The camps
>were on Polish soil.  That they didn't chose to find a phrase

 
 There you go again. Open any larger dictionary and find 
a description of the word "Polish". I already mentioned that 
in my other post. How about calling Gestapo prisons in the Soviet 
Union "the Russian prisons"; let's call the American Army 
in Germany "the German Army". This is the use of semantics you want.

Question: how do you call the Gestapo prisons in France?
(hint: that's on French soil).

>euphamistic enough to further minimize the connection between Poland
>and the camps should bother no one other than distorters, apologists,
>and revisionists.

>>                                                   But your statement
>>supporting the name of "Polish Death Camps" is an insult to both Jews
>>and Poles who were killed by Nazis.

>To Poles, especially those with revisionist motives, it certainly is.  To
>Jews ... NOT!
>Sam Saal      kingfish!saal OR saal@kingfish.att.com

  Very, very interesting.
This subject is a very serious one. Accusing someone of a genocide
is no small thing. Back your claims with proofs. The legal procedure
in civilized countries is such that if you accuse someone of a crime
you should provide proofs of the crime: who, were and when.

 How about publishing names of individuals and organizations
who were running the Nazi death camps? Of course this was done
thousands of times before but Sam Saal apparently has some new evidence,
never published before.

 Lech Borkowski

 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Lamed, Lightning, and SS
Date: 6 Sep 92 14:04:24 GMT
Organization: Purdue University Statistics Department

In article <2531@israel.nysernet.org> warren@nysernet.org writes:
>Somehow the idea of starting any sort of Torah teaching starting with
>the shape of a Nazi symbol disgusts me.

>Just my opinion.

There is not way that someone, or some group, which we despise can be
prevented from producing a symbol for their use similar to a Hebrew letter.
We need not change our alphabet because of this.
-- 
Herman Rubin, Dept. of Statistics, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette IN47907-1399
Phone: (317)494-6054
hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Internet, bitnet)  
{purdue,pur-ee}!pop.stat!hrubin(UUCP)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: warren@nysernet.org (Warren Burstein)
Subject: Re: On Qadish
Reply-To: warren@nysernet.org
Organization: Mail to News Gateway at Wang Labs
Date: 7 Sep 92 07:25:13 GMT

In <goldberg.715807557@techunix.technion.ac.il> goldberg@techunix.technion.ac.il (Jacques Goldberg) writes:

>Example: there  is a custom (I prefer not to write Minhag) to give an amount
>of money to a traveller that he has to deliver for Zedaqah upon arrival. The
>traveller is protected during his trip, because he is on duty, as a Mizwah
>vehicle. Valid Zedaqah or cheap insurance? 

When people ask me to take money to Israel, I do it.  No commission.

The idea that it is a form of insurance is nonsense, but not to be
discouraged, as the result is more Tzedakah.  I'd only get upset if
people started to take additional risks, e.g.  "well I don't need to
buy travellers' checks, I know nothing bad could possibly happen to
me"

Whether I tell this to the person who hands me the money or not
depends on my opinion of how he or she will respond to it.  If I think
there's a good chance that they'll feel compelled to explain to me
why, no, it really is flight insurance, I'll skip the disclaimer.

Yes, it's good to think.  It's also sometimes a good idea not to think
out loud.  Otherwise you get people banging their hands on the Bima
insisting "this is the minhag".
-- 
/|/-\/-\       Amar Rav Nachman Bar Yitzchak:
 |__/__/_/     "P'amim sheadam ba b'sharav
 |warren@      v'rochetz afilu b'mai mishrah"
/ nysernet.org 			Jerusalem
From: sb@linus.mitre.org (Shimshon Berkovits)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Hazkarah (Memorial) for Rabbi Eliezer Berkovits
Keywords: Berkovits
Date: 15 Sep 92 16:56:20 GMT
Organization: Research Computer Facility, MITRE Corporation, Bedford, MA

There will be a Hazkarah (Memorial) for Rabbi Eliezer Berkovits at 7:00 pm
on 22 September at the Van Leer Institute, Jerusalem.  Since our father
expicitly requested that there be no hespadim, either at the funeral or at
any memorial services, an evening of study is planned.  All are welcome.

Avraham, Shimshon and Dov Berkovits
Xref: sparky soc.culture.jewish:15749 soc.culture.polish:2546
From: ajb@access.digex.com (Alan J. Broder)
Subject: Hamaayan / The Torah Spring: Typo in Parashat Eikev !!!
Organization: Express Access Public Access UNIX, Greenbelt, Maryland USA
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 02:41:14 GMT

Please note this most unfortunate typo in the Hamaayan for Parashat Eikev.
(Thanks to Michael Allen for catching it for us). If you have archived
copies, please make this correction.

As excerpted from the original posting: 

>   This lesson, says Rabbenu Bachya, is also found in Mishlei
> (Proverbs) which says (4:22), "For they [the Mitzvot] are life for
> those who find them, for the entire person they are a curse."  
                                                        ^^^^^
			Thats "cure" not "curse" !!!!!


Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,talk.religion.misc
From: saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (samuel.saal)
Subject: Re: A few questions
Organization: liver ---> spleen
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 13:17:26 GMT
Followup-To: talk.religion.misc

In article <mBsqqB1w165w@valpso.hanse.de> tichauer@valpso.hanse.de
(Manfredo Tichauer) writes:

>                THE DAY OF THE CIRCUMCISION OF THE LORD

>  You can read it in ANY south american calendar or agenda where the names 
>  of the saints that correspond to a specific date are written. 

>  Jesus official birth date is the night of 24/25.December) and 1st.January
>  (christian new year) is 8 days later (a Jewish born male should be cir-
>  cumcised at the 8th day). Ask any of your christians friends and you'll
>  be astonished to see how few (if any) know it.

Except that the calendar changed since then, and there are plenty of
Christian scholars who dispute December 25th as having truly been Jesus'
birthday.

Please note that this discussion has moved to a realm inappropriate for
soc.culture.jewish and I have set the followup line accordingly.
-- 
Sam Saal      kingfish!saal OR saal@kingfish.att.com
	Vayiftach HaShem et Peah Ha`Aton
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.polish
From: richf@comet.base.bellcore.com (Rich Farenci)
Subject: Re: Nazi camps
Reply-To: richf@cosmos.bellcore.com
Organization: Bell Communications Research
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 92 14:55:57 GMT

In article <1992Sep9.233055.3883@gmuvax2.gmu.edu>, azaleski@gmuvax2.gmu.edu (Andrzej Zaleski) writes:
|> richf@comet.base.bellcore.com (Rich Farenci) writes:
|> 
|> >the claim that anti semitism was primarily the product of right wingers 
|> >and ultra nationalists shows very little understanding of polish attitudes
|> >during wwii. it is sad to note that even in the accounts of the 
|>                                           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
|> >"righteous gentiles" who saved many jewish lives, the primary motivation
|>  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
|> >in the overwhelming majority of cases was economic and not moral, and that
|>  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
|> >it was only by living with jews that their polish protectors could even
|> >begin to overcome their deeply held prejudices which often were a part of
|> >their education.
|> 
|> >rich farenci
|> 
|> Could you please say something about your motivation to put this kind of
|> stuff on the network ?
|> The only hope is that you will also one day try to "begin to overcome"
|> your "deeply held prejudices" towards the Polish nation. Hopefully they
|> were not a part of your education :-)
|> 
|> Andrzej Zaleski
|> 

i had hoped to stay out of this discussion but felt compelled to counter 
the casual dismissal of polish anti semitism displayed by some posters.  
the above post was in response to the following:

In article <36962@uflorida.cis.ufl.edu>, lbs@madeira.phys.ufl.edu (Lech Borkowski)
writes:
|>
|>  Now on the subject of antisemitism in Poland. Mainly right-wingers,
|> ultra-nationalists and such were anti-Semitic but they did
|> not become a dominant force. Still, they did a lot of damage
|> to the Polish-Jewish relations. I am sure it will not be difficult
|> to find sources, for anyone who wants to read about it, with
|> detailed description of what the anti-Semitic propagandists
|> said and what harm they have done to the Jews.
|>

i also believe my post is factual (which is more than i can say for the 
above paragraph) visit the fortunoff video archives at yale or the yivo 
institute in new york if you don't beleive me (that is where i get my
information as well as a local oral history project in nj).

i beleive it would be wrong and callous to say that all poles are/were anti
semitic (and i hope that wasn't implied in my post, i only wanted to point
out how wide spread these sentiments were), but to suggest that anti semtism 
was confined to ultra nationalists and right wingers i find equally callous, 
and that is my motiviation for posting.


rich farenci

Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.polish
From: matthew@stats.mu.oz.au (Maciek Blasikiewicz)
Subject: Re: Nazi camps
Organization: Computer Science, University of Melbourne, Australia
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 00:23:31 GMT

saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (samuel.saal) writes:

>In article <1992Sep10.150235.17992@sarah.albany.edu>
>pawel@tethys.ph.albany.edu writes:

>>  Nevertheless please note that to refer to "Nazi camps" as Polish
>>puts some kind of collective guilt on Polish people which now
>>I understand was not your original intention.

>But all I did was defend and reiterate whatthe newpaper article had done.
>It was the person who complained about the article that claimed the
>article presumed collective guilt.  I don't/didn't agree and defended the
>newspaper.  In the reworded letter I hacked I made no statements about
>_ALL_ Poles, only about those that would revise/hide that part of Polish
>history.  Find the article and read it again.

I understand finally: the NEWSPAPER WAS RIGHT, after all! They WERE
POLISH Death Camps, even though one might find a handful of Poles
somewhere who were not actively collaborating with the Nazis for some
reason. And Sam, being very careful in choosing his words, did not, in
fact, deny this! I bow to him in respect, after all the vicious attacks
he had to endure from the revisionist/apologist/antisemitic Poles on
the net. I also thank him for his persistence in justifying his point,
and for the patience he has shown towards Poles on the net.

I URGE EVERYBODY VERY STRONGLY TO PROTEST POLISH REVISIONISM AND
ANTISEMITISM, AS DEMONSTRATED BY CANADIAN POLES WHO OBJECTED TO THE TERM
"POLISH DEATH CAMPS" BEING  C O R R E C T L Y  USED IN THE MEDIA, BY
SIGNING SAM'S LETTER IN SUPPORT OF THE NEWSPAPER.


MB
From: billg@bony1.bony.com (Bill Gripp)
Subject: Re: Nazi camps
Organization: LA&W RR
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 92 14:52:19 GMT

In article <1992Sep9.172219.21396@walter.bellcore.com> richf@cosmos.bellcore.com writes:
>In article <matthew.716040926@munna>, matthew@.cs.mu.oz (Maciek Blasikiewicz) writes:
>|> richf@comet.base.bellcore.com (Rich Farenci) writes:
>|> 
>|> >the claim that anti semitism was primarily the product of right wingers 
>|> >and ultra nationalists shows very little understanding of polish attitudes
>|> >during wwii. it is sad to note that even in the accounts of the 
>|>                                           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>|> >"righteous gentiles" who saved many jewish lives, the primary motivation
>|>  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>|> >in the overwhelming majority of cases was economic and not moral, and that
>|>  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>|> >it was only by living with jews that their polish protectors could even
>|> >begin to overcome their deeply held prejudices which often were a part of
>|> >their education.
>|> 
>|> >rich farenci
>|> 
>|> How do you figure this out? How did they benefit economically? How
>|> large was the expected gain, so that these "righteous gentiles" would
>|> risk their own life and the lives of the rest of their family?
>|> 
>|> 
>|> MB
>
>there are numerous accounts by jewish survivors documenting how they were
>saved by hiding with polish families, in nearly all of these cases the
>protection was bought with whatever money and valuables the jews could
>provide. nechamah tec writes of her own personal experience in her book
>"dry tears", and of other survivors in "when light pierced the darkness".

That doesn't prove that they did it only for economic gain.

"Hey, these Nazi's are out to kill me.  Hide me in your house, give me
food, water, whatever else I need.  Risk your life and your family's
lives.  Meanwhile you pay for it all and I'll keep all my personal
belongings myself.  After all my life is worth more than your property
not mine."

Be real, you pay your way in this world.  If A hides B and B has some
money, property, etc, why shouldn't B pay for their "room and board"?
And A and B have nothing to do with being Polish, or Jewish, or Martian.
It costs money to live in this world.

If you can prove that the Jews paid $1000 for a loaf of bread and they
lived like pigs while the Polish peasents hiding them lived like upper
middle class (a Volvo and a Mercedees) you might make a case.  But to
simply say that hidden Jews had to pay their way when they were capable
of doing so fails to prove economic gain by the people who hid them.



Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish