HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: davorinf@spot.tv.tek.com (Davorin Fundak)
Subject: New Amnesty International Reports
Originator: davorinf@spot
Organization: Tektronix, Inc.  Beaverton, Oregon
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 23:47:41 GMT


UPI reported on January 21 that Amnesty International published two
new reports on Bosnia-Herzegovina.  Does anyone have the reports
available?

Following are excerpts from the UPI article:
                              *  *  *
LONDON (UPI) - Amnesty International published two reports Thursday listing
a catalogue of alleged serious abuses against both men and women by the
armed forces in Bosnia-Herzegovina.
                              *  *  *
     One report described evidence, gained through interviews, that women
had been raped in houses by soldiers from their town or passing through,
that women had been raped while held in detention centers, and that
women in other cases had been detained in buildings or hotels
specifically to be raped by soldiers.
                              *  *  *
     The second Amnesty report gave a detailed description of the
atrocities that allegedly occurred in the town of Bosanski Petrovac
between last April and November, when the issue of human rights
violations in Bosnia-Herzegovina was under particular Western scrutiny.
                              *  *  *
-------
Davorin Fundak
e-mail: davorin.fundak@tek.com

Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
From: sharon@world.std.com (Sharon M Gartenberg)
Subject: Re: The Economist on the proposed Bosnian ``peace plan''
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 12:49:31 GMT

bitn@ellis.uchicago.edu (nathan elery bitner) writes:

>So tell me this:  Why has it been (at least in theory) accepted by all
>		  sides, except for some of the details?

Because each side feels compelled to say they'll support at least the
concept, to mollify the West. The Bosnian Serbs know that if they say
no flat-out, it will likely increase calls for outside intervention against
them in Bosnia. And the Izetbegovic government knows that if they are the 
ones who say no to a ``peace plan,'' they lose all hope of any kind of
outside help -- even permission to obtain weapons to try to defend the
territory they have left.

Both sides have seen all too clearly that the West responds to the words
that are said, not the deeds that are done. It is completely baffling to me
how anyone expects an agreement to hold after all the other promises by
the Serbian nationalists to stop ethnic cleansing, put their heavy weapons
under UN supervision, put their aircraft under UN supervision, offer
unilateral cease-fires, end the war by New Year's, etc., etc., etc. have
been completely worthless. :-(

Sharon  

-- 
Sharon Machlis Gartenberg
Framingham, MA  USA
e-mail: sharon@world.std.com
From: ir@escher.unh.edu (Ivo Raznjevic)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
Subject: Re: Good News from U.S.
Date: 22 Jan 1993 01:24:19 GMT
Organization: University of New Hampshire  -  Durham, NH
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: escher.unh.edu

In article <1jmsbvINNcsq@SUNED.ZOO.CS.YALE.EDU>, jovanovic-nick@cs.yale.edu (Nick Jovanovic) writes:
> Don't play games about Communist threats.  Izetbegovic does not have a
> pristine, anti-Communist history himself, eh?  B-H should never have been
> recognized when a third of its people did not agree to be pulled out of
		  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
That means that 2/3 of his people agree to be pulled out of Yu. How many
people suppose to agree about something ?  Is it one third enough? And
was the old Yu onlySerbian country? It seems tha noone wants to be
in the same country with Serbs.
 
> their own country (Yugoslavia) overnight by a secession.  Doing this to
> -Nick

-- Ivo
Xref: sparky soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna:1362 soc.culture.europe:11404 soc.culture.indian:45427
From: arnsenad@me.utoronto.ca (Senad Arnautovic)
Subject: Re: Good News from U.S.
Organisation: U of Toronto, Dept. of Mechanical Engineering
Organization: UofT Mechanical Engineering
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 01:07:18 GMT

jovanovic-nick@cs.yale.edu (Nick Jovanovic) writes:

>In article <C17pJu.E0F@me.utoronto.ca> arnsenad@me.utoronto.ca (Senad Arnautovic) writes:
>>
>>Do serbs in Bosnia call themselves Bosnians? Those who are fighting
>>against democratically elected B-H government forces certainly do not.
>>
>All who are from Bosnia are Bosnians whether they like it or not, and
>whether they call themselves Bosnian or not.  So Muslims, Serbs, Croats,
>Jews, Gypsies, Germans, Hungarians, etc. are ALL Bosnians also if they
>are from Bosnia.

No, Bosnian Serbs would not kill their non-Serb neighbours without
propaganda from Serbia "that all Serbs should live in one country".
First massive killing of Bosnians in Bijeljina and Foca and all 
eastern Bosnia were carried out by Serbians (that is Sebs from Serbia).
Ever heard about "White Eagles", Arkan, and other criminals,
listed by the U.S. Secretary of State (former) as war criminals?
They are not Bosnian Serbs. And true, the final price will pay
Bosnian Serbs, while Arkan and Co will move on Kosovo and Macedonia.

>>Do you consider bombing Baghdad this week defending the U.S. rather
>>than bullying other countries?
>No, I do not.  I consider the raids on Iraq by Bush, Major, and Mitterand
>to be criminal acts of Western imperialism.  BTW, I also considered the
>Gulf War two years ago to be improper.  On the other hand, Iraq's invasion
>of Kuwait was also improper, though it killed far fewer people than did
>the U.N. semi-authorized invasion led by Bush.

So, therefore you agree with my point that the U.S. should intervene
sometimes (that is, bully other country), say in Bosnia even though
it would not defend the U.S. This is a reference to your argument
in your last post "that the U.S. should act only to defend itself
rather than to bully other countries".
Of course the invasion of Kuwait is improper: one better armed
country invaded unarmed smaller country. So is the aggression
of Serbia against another country B-H.

>>The democratic government of B-H has asked international community
>>for a help to protect its internationally recognized boundaries
>>from foreign aggression - communist Serbia. The U.S. did help
>>other countries, say Korea under the threat from communist China,
>>Western Europe from Nazi Germany, etc.
>>
>Don't play games about Communist threats.  Izetbegovic does not have a
>pristine, anti-Communist history himself, eh?

Among ALL leaders in former Yugoslavia republics, Mr. Izetbegovic
was the only one who was not member of the Communist party.
Mr. Milosevic (Serbia), Bulatovic (Montenegro), Tudjman (Croatia),
Kucan (Slovenia), Gligorov (Macedonia) held the highest positions
in Communist Party.

Senad
From: pshane@andromeda.rutgers.edu (Ana M. Shane)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
Subject: Re: Supposedly Serbian Regugees (not)
Date: 24 Jan 93 04:24:22 GMT
Distribution: soc
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

arnsenad@me.utoronto.ca (Senad Arnautovic) writes:


>Ana Shane writes:

-> Of 600,000 refugees registered in Serbia, 62 percent are women and children
->younger than 14. There also are believed to be 50,000 to 80,000 unregistered
->refugees, mostly Muslims or men of military age.

->>So 62% are women and children, to be in a comfortable safety, while
->>men "are finishing the job of slaughtering the Bosnians".

Ana (before):
>>If 62% are women and children, then the rest - 38% - are men. In an
>>average family with 2 children (and in Yu, average was less than 2)
>>men are 25% of the family! So obviously, just by mathematical logic
>>your "conclusion" is not quite logical.

>If you say 25% are men, the remaining 13% could come from
>women and children OLDER than 14.

>So, Ana, statistics and math logic still work.

NO: The right conclusion would be that the remaining 13% are either
children older than 14 (both sexes) and/or men - ALL OF WHICH DIDN'T 
REMAIN IN BOSNIA & HERZEGOVINA to "finish the job of slaughtering
the Bosnians". 

And that was what I was pointing at! That more men than even only the
husbands/fathers of the 62% "women and children younger than 14" run
away from Bosnia and Herzegovina.

But of course, all these numbers are just words, god knows how accurate,
and the lives of all these people - refugees in Serbia and Montenegro, in
Croatia and Slovenia and Macedonia and all over the world - are another
thing. And while we (including me) are making nice logical points
each one of these lives is a tragedy and bordering a tragedy.

And there will be many more... There are too many people who are so
hurt, that their rage blinds any logic, and there are too many
who profit from this war and are able to manipulate this rage into
the most destructive tragic actions. The peace will come (if it comes)
on the day when all the victims of this horror can take each others hands
and cry together.

>Regards
>Senad H. Arnautovic

Sincerely
Ana M. Shane
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
From: arnsenad@me.utoronto.ca (Senad Arnautovic)
Subject: Re: Supposedly Serbian Regugees (not)
Organisation: U of Toronto, Dept. of Mechanical Engineering
Organization: UofT Mechanical Engineering
Distribution: soc
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 18:18:00 GMT


Ana Shane writes:

>>> Of 600,000 refugees registered in Serbia, 62 percent are women and children
>>>younger than 14. There also are believed to be 50,000 to 80,000 unregistered
>>>refugees, mostly Muslims or men of military age.

>>So 62% are women and children, to be in a comfortable safety, while
>>men "are finishing the job of slaughtering the Bosnians".

>If 62% are women and children, then the rest - 38% - are men. In an
>average family with 2 children (and in Yu, average was less than 2)
>men are 25% of the family! So obviously, just by mathematical logic
>your "conclusion" is not quite logical.

If you say 25% are men, the remaining 13% could come from
women and children OLDER than 14.

So, Ana, statistics and math logic still work.

Regards
Senad H. Arnautovic
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 18:36:13 CST
From: <U52148@uicvm.uic.edu>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
Subject: Re: islamic info in bosnian language
Distribution: world

In article <1993Jan22.162621.2532@ucbeh.san.uc.edu>, minhaszt@ucbeh.san.uc.edu
says:
>
>salam alaikum logo,
>
>i am trying to find islamic books in the bosnian language. please e-mail
>me any info you can find.
>
>zafar minhas
>
Bosnian DOES not exist. I do however have a kuran in Croatian.

-Cro

Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
From: sam6608@ritvax.isc.rit.edu
Subject: Information requested
Reply-To: sam6608@ritvax.isc.rit.edu
Organization: Rochester Institute of Technology
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 03:48:29 GMT

Dear Brothers and Sisters.
We, the MSA of Rochester Institute of Technology, Rochester NY are 
organizing an event in order to educate people about the actual situation
of Bosnia-Herzgovania. The event will include the written material in the 
form of handouts, flyers and banners, video tapes shown during the whole day
and a seminar in the evening featuring eminent scholars of the area. We are 
looking forward for donation from the general public too. Christian and
jewish community is also sponsoring us.
What we need right now from you brothers are some photographic negetives
of the pictures of the area, showing the destruction and damage done by 
the serbs and the cruel slaughter of humanity.
Return and forward guaranteed (with postage).
May Allah Bless you.

Thanks.

Shahid Mahmood.
(President)
Muslim Students Association
Rochester Institute of Technology
110 Kimball Drive Rochester NY 14623
Ph. (716) 292-0896
Email: sam6608@ritvax.rit.isc.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
From: bitn@ellis.uchicago.edu (nathan elery bitner)
Subject: Re: The Economist on the proposed Bosnian ``peace plan''
Reply-To: bitn@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 05:18:17 GMT

Sharon --

I agree almost in whole on your assessment of the Economist article.
I am totally shocked as I continually read the so-called "merits" of
this utterly ridiculous peace proposal.  When I first heard it, I thought
it was a joke.  Does everyone really think that creating 10 provinces
is going to end the claims of all sides?  How long before Serbians 
decide that, well, maybe they do still have claims to Jajce, etc.?
I can tell you how long -- as soon as they gather more weapons and
reorganize their forces.  And, to be fair, that probably goes for the 
Croatians and Muslims as well.  There will be ongoing claims for ages
to come and the Owen/Vance plan would just make it MUCH WORSE.

So tell me this:  Why has it been (at least in theory) accepted by all
		  sides, except for some of the details?

All this proposal will be, at best, is a cease-fire.  In no way could it
possibly end the fighting.  For one thing, the Serbs and Croats may have
what they want, but the Muslims have far less.  As soon as they have the
ability again, the Muslims (or better yet, *bosnians* or *hercegovines*)
will fight for what they believe is rightfully theirs.

And where do Cyrus Vance and Lord Owen get off issuing complaints to the
West and especially the U.S. regarding their possible "interference" in the
process.  Finally, the West shows signs of doing something substantial
(well, maybe not substantial, but a step in the right direction) and we've
got these "mediators" telling them to can it because they believe they're
in the process of achieving world peace or something.  Give me a break.
Their proposal is ludicrous and will never hold.  It is a short-term
solution AT BEST.  In the end, I believe it will make things far worse.

Finally, I was most amused to read the brilliant suggestion from a French
mediator regarding the dispute between Greece and Macedonia.  He
suggested a compromise of calling the secessionist republic "The Former
Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia," until a better name could be reached.
Now we know what they get the big money for ...

*-Nathan-*

-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
|                         INTER ARMA SILENT LEGES                      |
| "Worship Ditka NOW."                email:  bitn@midway.uchicago.edu |
|______________________________________________________________________|
From: pshane@andromeda.rutgers.edu (Ana M. Shane)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
Subject: Re: Supposedly Serbian Regugees (not)
Date: 23 Jan 93 22:29:05 GMT
Distribution: soc
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

U15231@uicvm.uic.edu writes:

>In article <Jan.22.02.40.52.1993.9265@andromeda.rutgers.edu>,
>pshane@andromeda.rutgers.edu (Ana M. Shane) says:

>>arnsenad@me.utoronto.ca (Senad Arnautovic) writes:

>>>>Of 600,000 refugees registered in Serbia, 62 percent are women and
                                              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>>children younger than 14. There also are believed to be 50,000 to 80,000 
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>>unregistered refugees, mostly Muslims or men of military age.

Ana (before):
>>If 62% are women and children, then the rest - 38% - are men. In an
>>average family with 2 children (and in Yu, average was less than 2)
>>men are 25% of the family! So obviously, just by mathematical logic
>>your "conclusion" is not quite logical.


Zlatko:
>Some of "children" can be boys 18+. They can fight (and probably do)
>and can well make up those missing 13% from your "mathematical logic".


Ana (NOW):
Read above: it said "children younger than than 14"

>Zlatko Sijercic

>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>With no hopes for UNJUST PEACE!
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Actually, I would really like to get some information about how many
men are actually fighting in each of the armies. Also, how many
refugees there are all together and their ethnic structure as well as
where they have gone. All the data about refugees are scattered in
different news and sometimes greatly vary. Does anyone have them in
one place?

Ana M. Shane
Xref: sparky soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna:1391 soc.culture.croatia:519
From: adzinic@sun14.vlsi.uwaterloo.ca (Adnan Dzinic)
Subject: See who is voting for peace !
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 22:16:42 GMT



In article <1993Jan24.212202.17034@newstand.syr.edu>, purwinto@rodan.acs.syr.EDU () writes:
> _____________________________________________________________________________
> 
> To all supporters of peace and justice in former Yugoslavia:
> 
> Action for Peace in the Balkans, a multiethnic, San Francisco Bay
> Area-based peace group, has organized a nationwide telegram hotline to
> President Bill Clinton, urging him to seek a peaceful solution to this
> conflict. The telegram reads:
> 
> "I oppose military intervention or lifting the arms embargo in the civil war 
> in former Yugoslavia.  Such action will fuel the fighting, prolong civilian 
> suffering, and lead to an even wider conflict in the region. Exercise 
> evenhanded diplomacy and pressure the three warring sides in Bosnia and 
> Hercegovina to negotiate a mutually acceptable political solution."
> 
[... bla bla bla ...]
What does it mean "multiethnic" in this case. Probably it means:
Chetniks from Serbia, Bosna and Hercegovina, Croatia, Montenegro and
similar bastards. Why you did not try to stop aggression on people of Bosnia
10 months ago, but now you are trying to stop new government to do what old
one was supposed to do in maj 1992. 
And ones more it is not civil war, it is brutal aggression on Bosnia and 
Hercegovina.
Adnan Dzinic
Xref: sparky soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna:1389 soc.culture.yugoslavia:10746
From: pshane@andromeda.rutgers.edu (Ana M. Shane)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
Subject: Re: Supposedly Serbian Regugees (not)
Date: 22 Jan 93 07:40:53 GMT
Distribution: soc
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

arnsenad@me.utoronto.ca (Senad Arnautovic) writes:

>>   Of 600,000 refugees registered in Serbia, 62 percent are women and children
>>younger than 14. There also are believed to be 50,000 to 80,000 unregistered
>>refugees, mostly Muslims or men of military age.

>So 62% are women and children, to be in a comfortable safety, while
>men "are finishing the job of slaughtering the Bosnians".

If 62% are women and children, then the rest - 38% - are men. In an
average family with 2 children (and in Yu, average was less than 2)
men are 25% of the family! So obviously, just by mathematical logic
your "conclusion" is not quite logical.


>Senad Arnautovic

Ana M. Shane
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
before any ethnic cleansing one must first do the brain-washing
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 11:21:44 CST
From: <U15231@uicvm.uic.edu>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
Subject: Re: Supposedly Serbian Regugees (not)
Distribution: soc
 <Jan.22.02.40.52.1993.9265@andromeda.rutgers.edu>

In article <Jan.22.02.40.52.1993.9265@andromeda.rutgers.edu>,
pshane@andromeda.rutgers.edu (Ana M. Shane) says:
>
>arnsenad@me.utoronto.ca (Senad Arnautovic) writes:
>
>>>   Of 600,000 refugees registered in Serbia, 62 percent are women and       n
>childre
>>>younger than 14. There also are believed to be 50,000 to 80,000 unregistered
>>>refugees, mostly Muslims or men of military age.
>
>>So 62% are women and children, to be in a comfortable safety, while
>>men "are finishing the job of slaughtering the Bosnians".
>
>If 62% are women and children, then the rest - 38% - are men. In an
>average family with 2 children (and in Yu, average was less than 2)
>men are 25% of the family! So obviously, just by mathematical logic
>your "conclusion" is not quite logical.
>
>
>>Senad Arnautovic
>
>Ana M. Shane


Some of "children" can be boys 18+. They can fight (and probably do)
and can well make up those missing 13% from your "mathematical logic".


Zlatko Sijercic

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
With no hopes for UNJUST PEACE!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>before any ethnic cleansing one must first do the brain-washing
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
From: damir@infopls.chi.il.us (Damir Matanic)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
Subject: Re: Argicman Matanic
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 93 10:38:42 CST
Organization: INFOPLUS support, Wheeling, IL


Hey!!!  Eddie's back!!!!!

Well, weener, who invited you back?  Serbo-fascist trash such as yourself 
do not belong on this newsgroup.  Go back to you fascist friends at 
s.c.yugo.
  So, you don't like my citation, huh?  The truth really stings doesn't 
it?  That citation explains perfectly what the Serbian mentality is, and 
because of that, you can't handle it.  You just can't accept the truth, 
can you, weener?  Huh...Of course you can't.  You're a sick puppy Edward. 
 Only a sick, mentaly disturbed individual such as yourself and you 
fascist friends can openly support cetnik terrorists who have killed 
100,000 Muslim civilians, raped thousands of women (so that they can 
spread the 'Serbian seed'), mutilated countless Croat and Muslim 
civilians and destroyed their cultural heritage, etc...
 The Croats and Muslims experienced this same type of treatment during 
the first Yugo, and afterwards during the war.  We responded then, and 
we'll respond now.  If peace indeed doesn't return to the Balkans, the 
primary responsibility for it's failure will lie with Belgrade's hords 
and individuals such as yourself.

  Crawl back into the manure from where you came from, stoko.

Damir

--
damir@infopls.chi.il.us (Damir Matanic)
Infoplus BBS, +1 708 537 0247, v32bis. Home of Infoplus.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
From: faruk@bcars6f5.BNR.CA (Faruk od Bosne)
Subject: Re: Supposedly Serbian Regugees (not)
Reply-To: faruk@bnr.ca
Organization: Bell Northern Research, Canada
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 93 21:47:10 GMT


In article <Jan.22.02.40.52.1993.9265@andromeda.rutgers.edu>,
pshane@andromeda.rutgers.edu (Ana M. Shane) writes:
|> arnsenad@me.utoronto.ca (Senad Arnautovic) writes:
|> 
|> >>   Of 600,000 refugees registered in Serbia, 62 percent are women
and children
|> >>younger than 14. There also are believed to be 50,000 to 80,000
unregistered
|> >>refugees, mostly Muslims or men of military age.
|> 
|> >So 62% are women and children, to be in a comfortable safety, while
|> >men "are finishing the job of slaughtering the Bosnians".
|> 
|> If 62% are women and children, then the rest - 38% - are men. In an
|> average family with 2 children (and in Yu, average was less than 2)
|> men are 25% of the family! So obviously, just by mathematical logic
|> your "conclusion" is not quite logical.

I  don't want to be rude, but you are using your "percentages" again.
Your logic is based on assumption that refugee population consists of
whole families. Which is of cause wrong. You got the rest from others.
So you are not only wrong in math (which is minor), but in assumptions
- which is simptomatic. 

|> 
|> 
|> >Senad Arnautovic
|> 
|> Ana M. Shane
|> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
|> before any ethnic cleansing one must first do the brain-washing
|> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~