HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: hasan@vxcrna.cern.ch 
Subject: Re: Muhajirs in Sindh
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: European Organization for Nuclear Research, CERN
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 11:11:00 GMT

In article <1992Jul20.164843.13630@bernina.ethz.ch>, nadeem@igpho (Nadeem Malik) writes...

> ... Stuff deleted ...

>But there is another important factor why Urdu is the natural national
>language of Pakistan, and that is its Muslim connections. It was the language
                                                           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>of the Mughul courts and has become associated with Muslim India. This 
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Just to keep the historical facts right, Urdu had never been the language
of Mughal courts. Even during the dying gasps of the Mughal Empire, when
it had shrunk to the confines of Delhi with a King who was one of the 
foremost Urdu poets of his time, Urdu was was not the court language. It
was Persian that had always been the court language of the Mughals,
notwithstanding that their native language was Turkish.

And just as a highlighting aside, I may add -- even the court language
of Ranjeet Singh, who for many, was the father of Punjabi nationalism (if at 
all such a thing ever existed :-)) was Persian.

I must clarify that I have no serious objection to the crux of the argument
and the sense in which I have used the word  *court language* would be
analogous to *official language* in the modern political jargon. Urdu did
come to be used more and more by the Mughal elite, especially during the
last hundred years of the empire that no longer was.

And as I wrote that, an intriguing thought strikes me: Urdu was slowly
displacing Persian (if not completely overthrowing it) during the years
that the Mughal empire was in decline, so is it not a remnant of a period
of decay of Muslim power -- a symbol of decadence, if you like?:-)


> 
>Nadeem Malik


What's in a .sig!
From: patrinr@memstvx1.memst.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
Subject: Re: Regarding RAW-Mossad Nexus to Fight Terrorism
Date: 23 Jul 92 17:33:09 -0600
Distribution: world
Organization: Memphis State University

In article <1992Jul23.220925.7256@leland.Stanford.EDU>, usman@leland.Stanford.EDU (Usman Hameed) writes:
> In article <1992Jul23.193950.11543@news.uiowa.edu> abdutta@icaen.uiowa.edu (Abhijit Dutta) writes:
>>|* RAW-Mossad Nexus Fights Terrorism  
>>|
>>|U.S intelligence officer confirms their training in Israel
>>|
>>|A crack battalion of Indian intelligence agents back from training in
>>|Israel, a new found ally of India, is all set set to launch a major
>>|counter-terrorism offensive against separatist forces in Kashmir,
> 
> 
> Only time will tell if suppression, or should I say counter-terrorism,
> is the solution to problems in Kashmir, Assam and E. Punjab.  Some
                                 ****************************
> quarters naively feel a political resolution is necessary :-)   
> 
> Hum kiya jaaneiN.
> 
> Usman
> 
  and ofcourse, Sind.

  Rao




Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
From: usman@leland.Stanford.EDU (Usman Hameed)
Subject: Re: NATIONAL LANGUAGE
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 92 21:21:06 GMT

In article <oePgfvi00VAwQKZkMb@andrew.cmu.edu> ag3l+@andrew.cmu.edu (Arun K. Gupta) writes:
>
>Switzerland has existed as a nation since 1291, so says the
>encyclopedia. The languages of its peoples are:
>
>
>             Language and Religion
>
>             In spite of the conventional differentiation into a German,
>             French, and Italian SWITZERLAND, it is mostly language, not
>             ethnic consciousness, that distinguishes different segments of
>             the Swiss population.  Today the majority (65%) speak a German
>             dialect known as Schwyzertutsch, while about 18% speak French,
>             12% speak Italian, and 1% (mainly in the Engadine section of
>             Graubunden canton) speak Romansch, a Romance language belonging
>             to the Rheto-Romanic group.  With the exception of a tiny
>             Jewish community, the population is almost evenly divided
>             between Roman Catholics (49.4%) and Protestants (47.8%).
>
>
>So you see, the myth of one nation == one language is just that.
>Foolish to keep fighting over it.
>
>-arun gupta
>ag3L@andrew.cmu.edu


Arun, you're oversimplifying the language issue in our countries.
Switzerland is a wealthy country with a high literacy rate.  
People hug language as a monolithic expression of ethnic bonding
when they feel the central government is not representative of them, 
e.g. Tamil Nadu, Quebec.  Also, with higher income levels and education
the population of a country feel less exploited or subjugated.  Hence 
they react with less emotion to issues of language or predominant
dialects.
   
You say that such and such percent speak German, French, but what 
is the language that determines commerce & governmental communication 
in Switzerland?  If there is in fact one, then the myth of one language
may simply be a contrived convenience, whether expressly stated or not.

Usman
From: B.Kumar@cs.ucl.ac.uk
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
Subject: Islamic World News and False Claims.
Date: 29 Jul 92 16:32:19 GMT


One gentleman named  Omar Farooq onf@cbnewsg.cb.att.com (omar.farooq) 
had recently made claim that he had visited some remote village in Punjab 
three years back and seen some old mosques being converted to Gurudwaras
after 1947. I have no doubt to say this gentleman made such lofty claims
even without having any idea that how difficult it is to get a mutual
VISA between India and Pakistan to visit a place unless you have a *blood* 
relative or have a *celebrity* status ( usually film star or sports
personality). Even accredited journalists working with foreign news agencies
but with Indian Passports are refused VISA by Pakistani Governments even to
visit Islamabad or Karanchi. For someone to claim that he got permission to
visit a remote village without having a relative there, is absolutely 
unbelievable.

This clearly shows that claims he has made to visit Punjab were completely 
untrue and outrageous, and meant to create bad feelings amongst people.
It is suprising that how  young students can make such (false) claims 
without any factual basis to support on public forum.

If Mr Omar still thinks that he really visited India three years back, he 
can send me his VISA number and Date and place of issue, I will get it 
verified from computer records of people entering the country from ministry.
Mr Omar has yet to respond to my request earliar posted on this forum three
days back for the same. I hope Mr Omar or anyone else will desist making
such claims in future just to support onesided news posted in the name of 
Islamic World News.

With Best Regards,

bkumar
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
From: vu0208@bingsuns.cc.binghamton.edu (!)
Subject: Paki Boxer got a free ride..
Organization: State University of New York at Binghamton
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 18:57:40 GMT


Last evening, NBC showed in its olympic coverage that the Iraqi boxer
Kazemi who was supposed to fight aginst his oponent a pakistani boxer
but he came to the ring without any gloves... actually he didn't have
any, and he asked the organizers to provide some. 

They gave him a 3 minute period to get his gear and start fighting,
but he couldn't get any, and so the Pakistani boxer got a "timed out"
victory.

Q: does any one know the meaning of Barcelona Olympic logo ??
From: khan@davidsys.com
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
Subject: Fun Days at Sadiq Public School
Date: 23 Jul 92 14:23:25 PST
Organization: DAVID Systems Inc, Sunnyvale CA

   I agree with Naveed Memon that Seraiki is
a most beautiful language. 
   I attended the Sadiq Public School in
Bahawalpur, from 1969-1973, and that was my
first exposure to that culture. The people are
so humble, quite different from those from
other parts of the country, and their language
is certainly 'romantic'. I remember going on
hikes to Yazman river, and eating the world's
best mangoes, so many varieties.
   By the way, is importing those mangoes to
USA a good idea or not? Maybe, storage and
time limit of expiration of quality would
be a problem. 
   It was funny. A small town like Bahawalpur
had its own special characters, and legends.
There were a few 'ghoondas' there also,
and we were supposed to be afraid of them.
A hockey match with Hasan Abdal college
or Aitchison used to become a town event, etc.
Each Saturday night they ran a movie
at the on-campus theatre and everyone was
supposed to be dressed for the occasion.
That was the night when enterprising chaps
would jump the wall and go to town for
forbidden fun. And what was the forbidden
fun ? > watching a Panjabi or Urdu movie
at the Rainbow cinema or Firdous cinema.
Some would go to the river for boating
at night. Very clean and innocent lifestyle.
If you sat with us, you would not understand
our conversation and our sense of humor.
It was all very localised.

                 regards, Khalid Khan
From: khan@davidsys.com
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
Subject: Low-cost products for Pakistan
Date: 24 Jul 92 11:42:38 PST
Organization: DAVID Systems Inc, Sunnyvale CA



   I am interested in contacting Pakistanis who
have a clean heart and are interested in starting
a design/manufacturing company, offering 
low-cost network products for sale in Pakistan.
Hardware Engrs., Software Engrs., Marketing types,
and Manufacturing Engrs. with some knowledge 
of capabilities in home country, and others
with advice are welcome to contact me.
From: fsyed@ds5000.DAC.Northeastern.edu (faiz syed)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
Subject: This is a test __ please ignore
Date: 22 Jul 92 15:25:28 GMT
Organization: Northeastern University, Boston MA. USA 02115



  jeevay pakistan
Organization: Arizona State University
Date: Thursday, 30 Jul 1992 17:35:30 MST
From: Nauman Mysorewala. <PAKEDITR@ASUACAD.BITNET>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
Subject: July 30th Hockey results

               Summer Olympics '92
                 Mens Field Hockey

                  Point Table

Pool A          M  W  L  T  G AG Pts

Australia       3  2  0  1 12  1  5
Germany         3  2  0  1  5  0  5
Britian         3  2  1  0  5  3  4
India           3  1  2  0  2  6  2
Argentina       3  1  2  0  1  8  2
Egypt           3  0  3  0  1  8  0


Pool B          M  W  L  T  G AG Pts

Netherlands     3  3  0  0 12  3  6
Pakistan        3  3  0  0 11  2  6
Spain           3  2  1  0 10  5  4
Unified         3  1  2  0 10  8  2
New Zealand     3  0  3  0  3  6  0
Malaysia        3  0  3  0  6 16  0


Game Results

July 26th

Won          G    Los          G

Pool A
Australia    7    Argentina    0
Britian      2    Egypt        0
Germany      3    India        0

Pool B
Netherlands  5    Unified      2
Pakistan     4    Malaysia     1
Spain        3    New Zealand  0


July 28th

Won          G    Los          G

Pool A
Australia    5    Egypt        1
Germany      2    Britian      0
India        1    Argentina    0

Pool B
Netherlands  3    Spain        2
Pakistan     1    New Zealand  0
Unified      7    Malaysia     3


July 30th

Won          G    Los          G

Pool A
Australia (T 1    Germany      1
Argentina    1    Egypt        0
Britian      3    India        1


Pool B
Netherlands  4    New Zealand  3
Pakistan     6    Unified      2
Spain        5    Malaysia     2



Nauman K. Mysorewala
Coordinator Pakistan News Service
Owner Listserv, PAKISTAN@ASUACAD, MUSLIMS@ASUACAD
Internet: PAKEDITR@ASUVM.INRE.ASU.EDU
Bitnet  : PAKEDITR@ASUACAD
From: merchant@davidsys.com
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
Subject: Re: SCPians of California: Press Release
Date: 22 Jul 92 11:57:25 PST
Organization: DAVID Systems Inc, Sunnyvale CA

In article <1992Jul20.201336.10635@usenet.ins.cwru.edu>, bc994@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Naseer M. Khan) writes:
> 
> In a previous article, mughal@iago.caltech.edu (ASIM M MUGHAL) says:
> 
>>
>>SUNNYVALE CALIFORNIA (July 17, 1992) SCPians of California held a secret 
>>     close door meeting in Sunnyvale  California. The  meeting  held  at 
>>     a covert location in Sunnyvale California came to an end at 3:00 am 
>>     July 11,1992 after lasting for over 2 hours. 
> 
>>       The next proposed meeting will be hosted by Asim Mughal either in 
>>     Los Angeles or at `The House` on one of the Berkeley Hills. The exact
>>     time of the next meeting and the guest list will be announced at a 
>>     later date.
>>
> 
> Next time you all have a meeting in the LA area, count me in....  I'll
> keep my lips zipped about time and place...and I'm allowed to stay up
> well past 3:00 am  :)
> 
> Oh yeah, why don't you post a scan of the photos so we can all see the
> SCP-Nothern California cluster....Make it GIF, if you do....
> 
The photo is priceless sir, and not for general view!! ;-)
-rukhsana

> 
> -- 
>       |      |                        Signed:  Naseer Khan
>       | (~)(o)                                 ___________
>      C      _)                               
>       | ,___|				       khan@us17501.mdc.com
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
From: mughal@iago.caltech.edu (ASIM M MUGHAL)
Subject: Re: SCPians of California: Press Release
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: California Institute of Technology
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 19:42:00 GMT

In article <10463@gollum.twg.com>, khan@twg.com (Sharaaz K. Khan) writes...
> 
> 
> 
>How come I was not invited to this meeting?????

# AA! You are invited to join in the Magic Mountain (Talismee Phar) trip.
# Will you be interested? :)
> 
>Well everyone - I have returned from my lovely experience of a 
>trip to Pakistan.  On the way I have gotten engaged and now am 
			
#  We lost one more guy to the 'other camp.' :(

>a happy man :)

# sigh.

> 
>Sharaaz Khan
> 
Asim Mughal
[Standard Disclaimer]
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
From: jamalin@newton.ccs.tuns.ca (Nadeem Jamali)
Subject: Re: Urban Sindh / CSS
Organization: Technical University of Nova Scotia, Halifax, N.S.
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 18:58:37 GMT

In article <samaddar.711687482@dumbo> samaddar@siemens.com writes:
>khan@ces.cwru.edu (Mansoor Khan) writes:
>
>>of equal opportunity. This will mean people from Karachi
>..
>> will be able
>>to compete on all the seats( not 2% khairaati seats) for Government,
>>education institutions, S&T scholarships, Bank loans for business,
>>and military.
>
>Hey, come back to India. You can compete on more than 2%, kind of like
>60% of open seats for most places.

That's why they came to Pakistan in first place... to avoid competition
with people who have similar background. 

>
>>	When Pakistan was founded in 1947, two thirds of the Muslim ICS offficers who opted for pakistan were from those areas which never became part of 
>>Pakistan. Rest were from Panjab. There were no Bengalis and there were no
>
>Hey, come back to India. With muhajirs gone, the muslim share in those
>areas has fallen. We need you to shore up the balance.

These people have become used to competing with less-previleged people... 
BTW, I'm still waiting for some figures regarding how many of the better
established Muslims of UP had emigrated to Pakistan.

>
>>	The story is too long. Any person who knows the history of PAkistan
>>will remember the systematic elimination of muhajirs in Pakistan.
>
>Hey, come back to India. Miandad can become captain of Indian cricket team,
>and India can again win the hockey gold in Olympics :-) BJP leader Advani
>can return to Karachi, and the Babri masjid will not be in danger.
>
>Sumitro

Nadeem
-- 
Nadeem Jamali                                     jamalin@newton.ccs.tuns.ca
						 
School of Computer Science			  
Technical University of Nova Scotia		  (902)420-7882  
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
From: onf@cbnewsg.cb.att.com (omar.farooq)
Subject: RE: NATIONAL LANGUAGE
Organization: AT&T
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 12:11:32 GMT

------------------------
Article 25962 (16 more) in soc.culture.pakistan:
From: jakhan@IASTATE.EDU (Javed A Khan)
Subject: RE: National language
Date: 21 Jul 92 20:30:19 GMT
Organization: Iowa State University

> [....deleted...]
>
>         NOT!!
>         Faarsee was the language of the Mughal courts, Urdu was perpetuated
>         and supported by Firangis to try to take muslims away from their
>         ruling past.
> Just for the record: Urdu means army in Turkish (it's oldest influence is from
                       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I thought the word Urdu meant a "camp".
------------------------

	I looked up the word "Urdu" in a Turkish/English dictionary and it
	had many definitions: the first one I noticed was army.  However,
	there may quite possibly have been a reference to a camp in a military
	sense.
	NOTE: In Turkish it's spelled Ordo(with two little dots over the o's).

Omar
From: ali@mcclb0.med.nyu.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
Subject: Re: The Buddha of Suburbia..
Date: 27 Jul 92 21:11:41 GMT
Organization: NYU Medical Center, New York, NY 10016, USA

In article <1992Jul25.173102.30402@davidsys.com>, khan@davidsys.com writes:
>   Hanif Qureshi and others who reside in the west
> with blackened hearts in their chests are NOT
> representative in any way, personally or
> with whatever they create thru their 'talents'
> [films, novels, etc.] of the culture of
> Pakistan. They, like Rushdie, are unsuccessful
> tools in the hands of those who hate
> the street-smart nation of Pakistan for
> the balls that we have as compared to other
> third world nations, and even the so-called
> 'advanced & superior' nations. 
>   'My Beautiful Laundrette', 'Samie & Rosie'
> and 'Buddha of Suburbia' are all unsuccessful
> attempts at defaming and mocking us, but
> Pakistanis do not care.

"Blackened hearts in their chests"?? Why do you think that anyone who
represents anything Pakistani in a negative light is attacking
Pakistan, attacking muslims, etc., and therefore must have a blackened
heart.  I think Hanif Qureshi's writing is very much tied to his own
experiences.  He is openly gay and the fact that he chooses to write
about it is probably not because he is trying to defame Pakistan but
more likely to understand himself.  As for Rushdie, he does manage to
capture a certain political ambience of Pakistani culture with Shame.
At least I thought so... and I dont think many people thought the
worst of Pakistanis after reading Shame, after all having corrupt
government, illegitimate babies, and screwed up families is quite a
universal phenomenon.   
Actually you dont have to go far to find people who do defame Pakistan and
mock its existence since there seem to be a bunch of them on SCP who 
constantly argue about topics such as Nat'l language, ethnic
loyalties etc.,.  Did you say blackened hearts in their chests ...??
jahanara
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
From: khan@davidsys.com
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan,soc.culture.indian
Subject: Naqshbandiyya Sufi Master
Date: 29 Jul 92 14:31:36 PST
Organization: DAVID Systems Inc, Sunnyvale CA





              INVITATION TO BASK IN THE LOVE AND 
                        THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE SUFI MASTERS!


      Whether you are from a Muslim background or a non-Muslim
background [Christian, Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist, Atheist, etc.],
you will experience unusual spirituality when you come to
our friendly gatherings. 

      Sufism deals with a universal truth, and cleansing 
of the Spiritual Heart, the Essence of every human being.

                 SHAIKH HISHAM KEBBANI
                 Naqshbandiyya Sufi Order
                 of Bukhara, Central Asia.

                 Phone: [415] 941-7916
                        [408] 425-1382 Dr. Wm. Sperrling
                        [408] 749-8322 Khalid Khan

      Weekly meetings at San Francisco South Bay [Silicon Valley]
and Oakland locations. 

      ALL INVITED, WITHOUT ANY OBLIGATION, TO JOIN IN
OUR HALAQA, EVEN IF YOU TEND TO DISAGREE WITH THE SUFI
WAY OF APPRECIATING THIS UNIVERSE.
From: jamalin@newton.ccs.tuns.ca (Nadeem Jamali)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
Subject: Re: Urban Sindh / CSS
Date: 21 Jul 92 17:28:52 GMT
Organization: Technical University of Nova Scotia, Halifax, N.S.

>
>
>Now that there is no more threat of Muhajirs taking away opportunities
>from the "Sons of The Soil",  lets make Pakistan the land
>of equal opportunity. This will mean people from Karachi, that is
>those people who can produce only Karachi's domicile, unlike those who
>can produce Karachi's domicile and one of Sindh, Panjab, Baluchistan,
>or Sarhad ( depending on "faa'edaa kidhar say hae!") will be able
>to compete on all the seats( not 2% khairaati seats) for Government,
                              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>education institutions, S&T scholarships, Bank loans for business,
>and military.

If the reference is to imply that "muhajirs" have only a 2% quota, then
it is a lie. Quotas are population ratio based... I believe latest census
figures are used to approximated population ratios. There isn't anything
like a quota for "muhajirs". Quotas are decided according to domicile.
Sindhi speaking people who are domiciled in Karachi have a right to compete
as Karachiites. So do "muhajirs" settled in rural areas. When I said 2%, may
be I was over generous. Constitution of Pakistan considers all Indian Muslims
entering Pakistan after a fixed date in mid 50's (probably in 1954) as 
illegal immigrants. If one refers to census figures around that time, that
should help give a better idea about the percentage of legal "muhajirs".
Since population growth rate (other than immigration) is clearly greater
in rural Sindh, the percentage of "muhajirs" must have declined since 1954.

I am not very clear about the definition of "household" which appears in
the census figures Arun Gupta quotes. Percentage of "muhajirs" may be
different from the percentage of immigrant households. Also, many people
have reservations about that particular census. In any case, the details
regarding percentage of "muhajirs" in civil service and army do indicate
that "muhajirs" have been getting much more than even the non-"muhajir"
people of Sindh. 

Someone mentioned earlier that Mr. Jinnah was an immigrant. This is also
incorrect. He was from Karachi... and it just happens to be the case that
Karachi has been a part of Sindh since centuries.. if not milleniums. There
are theories contesting Mr. Jinnah's being from Karachi. Many people claim
that there is sufficient evidence to prove that he was from a smaller town
in Sindh. In any case he was not am immigrant.... interestingly, his 
lack of knowledge about Urdu is well known.

Nadeem

-- 
Nadeem Jamali                                     jamalin@newton.ccs.tuns.ca
						 
School of Computer Science			  
Technical University of Nova Scotia		  (902)420-7882  
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan