From: fester@island.COM (Mike Fester)
Subject: Re: Immigration procedures
Organization: /usr/local/rn/organization
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1992 15:05:38 GMT

In article <6238@bigbird.hri.com.hri.com> blamb@sparc1.hri.com (Bill Lambert) writes:
>In article <1992Apr6.190517.4448@island.COM>, fester@island.COM (Mike
>Fester) writes:
>> In article <6182@bigbird.hri.com.hri.com> blamb@sparc1.hri.com (Bill
>Lambert) writes:
>> >
>> >I have to admit that I probably didn't have much of an opinion
>> >about this subject until I witnessed my True Love crying while
>> >being fingerprinted by the Boston version of the INS. We
>> >were treated rudely, as idoits, who were somehow inconveniencing
>> 
>> I don't believe INS has a monopoly on bureaucratic morons, as a visit to
>> most DMVs will show.

>Sorry, but it's really neither here nor here. I wasn't talking about
>getting a driver's license. I was talking about the much larger issue

Neither was I, as should have been clear.

>> >to marry a US citizen' check box." This, to me, was just terrorism
>> >on his part, or at best, a gratuitous display of bureaucratic pee-pee
>> >pulling.)

>> Not quite.....

>Huh?.... beg your pardon? Listen sport, I was there, not you. I've seen
>enough gratuitous pee-pee pulling and bureaucratic terrorism in my
>lifetime to last me a lifetime. I can see it when I know it.
				 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^?
And as you point out, you were already married, could have obtained ALL 
documentation in Japan before you left and saved yourself quite a hassle.

>Please recognize the situation. You are Joe B. Crat, and there are two
>people sitting in front of you who are legally married,
>have all the documentation to support it, are trying to be helpful and
>polite, are obviously well-off professionals, have committed no crimes,
>and, "Well, well... let me show 'em whose in charge here...." And so it
>goes, Michael. Some people may be more sensitive to this kind of horse
>poop than you are. I think we need those people watching the back ends
>of those pooping horses at all times and at all places.
>
>> ...... When we got married in Japan, we went to the emabassy (American)
>> to ask what we needed to do to make everything legal. We were asked where
>> we intended to get married, etc. We answered all questions and at the end of
>> the interview, I had a couple of general questions myself. It turns out that
>> there is a special visa for fiances of US citizens who wish to marry their
>> intended in the US.....
>
>All this is true.... but....
>
>Well, I didn't get into all the gory details, but since you wish to be
>reknowned as an expert on the subject, I'll tell my story. Perhaps this
>information might be useful for those who are contemplating the joys of
>international marriage.

>there's a catch. For foreigners, the registration must be done AFTER
>the ceremony, and the registration of a marriage with a foreigner can only
>be made at one place: Minato-Ku City Hall near Shinjuku. As we planned to

There are numerous places all over Japan where you can register a marriage,
not just one (yes, even with a foreigner). The Minato branch is simply the
closest to the American embassy in Tokyo.

>leave Japan on the day after our ceremony (which, while maybe not
>official to any government, was official enough for us), it was incon-
>venient for us to go to Minato-ku and so forth. BUT.... my wife went there
>beforehand to check on how we could do the Japanese registration. They told
>her that she could register at the Japanese Consulate in Boston. Mondainai.
>In addition, I called the US Embassy in Tokyo. The person I got was Nihon-
>jin and spoke little english. I asked what I had to consider in the US
>about a Japanese marriage. This person - perhaps reading from a card -
>said, "The United States of America recognizes marriages in Japan." My
>wife tried also, only to get essentially the same results in Nihon-go.
>When I asked if I could speak with and english speaking official, I was
>told that none was available.... 3 times in 3 tries.

>So.... (sorry this is so long, but I hope it might be useful for someone,
>if no longer Mike), we were happily married by an Irish Priest whose
>brogueish Japanese sounded somewhat comical, and trucked off to Boston
>the next day (by way of Chicago). My wife had been to the U.S. before
>and ALREADY HAD A VISA, Michael.In the throes of early marital bliss,
>we had no idea that we had to announce that we were intending to be
>married, because we thought we already were, having completed the first
>step of two required by the Japan procedure. The very next day we
>illegally parked near South Station and trotted up to the Japanese
>consulate only to find out that they only recognize official marriages
>IN THE US as registerable by them. Oh oh. Big trouble in Little Japan.
>We realized we weren't actually married.... even partially unless we
>returned to Japan (no one wants us married.... boo hoo), and I got
>another of the millions of parking tickets I recieve annually.

Japan has quite a few such things. For example, there is no such thing as
an absentee ballot in Japan: you wanna vote in a Japanese election, you
must PERSONALLY return your ballot to the proper ward office.

>> ......This is quite separate from a tourist visa. Also, in the
>> standard tourist visa application, there is a space that reads roughly "Why
>> are you going to the US?" Had she answered "To get married" chances are she
>> would have been directed to the proper visa department, saving her, and
>> yourself, considerable discomfort. She would have been required to
>present those
>> same documents to the embassy staff that she most likely was eventually 
>> required to submit to immigration (birth certificate, police record, etc). As
>> it has become a problem in the US (and recently Japan), quite a few
>foreigners
>> will marry US citizens to gain permanent resident status. While this
>obviously
>> does NOT apply in your situation, it is a situation the INS deals with on a 
>> daily basis. So, to those of you with fiances overseas, my advice is to jump
>> through the required hoops over there, as it will make your transition a bit
>> smoother.
>
>Did it ever.... in your wildest dreams.... ever occur to you that some
>body else's case, or somebody else's circumstances, might be different
>than yours?

Really don't understand your confusion here: I pointed out in the above para-
graph ""this obviously does NOT apply in your situation".

> Can't happen, huh?. You just assumed that we didn't  check
>something, or that we tried to pull something over on the

I don't believe that I mentioned this stuff about the fiance visa applied to
my case at all. And as you point out, you were married in Japan, didn't
register your marriage with the US embassy there, and as a consequence, went
through quite a hassle to get your marriage recognized as legal. How is this
unexpected?

>INS, but never did you assume that our case might have different
>circumstances. We did check, not realizing that our case was so different
>because we wanted to be married in Japan and move immediately to the US.
>
>We'll.... now we're married in both, and twice in some places. Now we
>know, but we didn't then, and didn't have a snowball's chance in San
>Juan of finding out from the people to whom we inquired.

I don't know if your marriage arrangements were as hurried as your above story
would indicate, but if not, then a trip to the American embassy would have
been of great benefit. If they were very hurried, then you should expect a 
certain of amount bureaucratic red-tape.

>> Now, if you want to say that many of these INS agents attend a special school
>> to get their humanity beaten out of them, I won't argue. I have not 
>> seen my wife mistreated, but I have witnessed some of them ridicule, bully,
>> embarass, etc, other immigrants.
>
>Having had those experiences, there are those that might think that you
>might be a little more understanding toward those who might be rightously 
>indignant when faced with those who might be rude bullying embarrassments.

And you might have checked a little more thoroughly into what constituted a
legal marriage as well. My post was in regard to getting a fiance visa, and this
response of yours illustrates clearly that it is most likely better to 
FOLLOW THE PROCEDURES and ASK WHAT MUST BE DONE TO MAKE EVERYTHING LEGAL in
order avoid exactly the kinds of hassles you later endured.

The upshot of this whole thing, for those of you planning on getting married,
is roughly this: check with your respectives embassies regarding what 
documentation you will, on the proper procedures for registering a legal 
marriage, what visas you will need, etc. A little advance preparation may save 
a lot of time and hassle later.

>{I apologize in advance for the sarcasm, but I'm gonna say it anyway :-)
>I've been watching the napalm passing between you and my brother, Al.
>You see, we were siamese twins separated at birth, and raised by 
>different sets of Post Office employees. Isn't life strange?}

No argument there.

Mike

-- 
Disclaimer - These opiini^H^H damn! ^H^H ^Q ^[ .... :w  :q  :wq  :wq! ^d  X ^?
exit X Q  ^C ^? :quitbye  CtrlAltDel   ~~q  :~q  logout  save/quit :!QUIT
^[zz ^[ZZZZZZ ^H  man vi ^@  ^L  ^[c  ^# ^E ^X ^I ^T ? help  helpquit ^D  ^d 
man help ^C ^c help exit ?Quit ?q CtrlShftDel "Hey, what does this button d..."