HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: peter@ferranti.com (peter da silva)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.unix.misc
Subject: Re: The need for an assembler (was: Favorite CPU)
Keywords: Pascal
Date: 27 Aug 92 17:38:50 GMT
Organization: Xenix Support, FICC

In article <1992Aug26.080142.15930@news.columbia.edu> lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) writes:
> If someone will go back and check, they will find that this whole thing
> started because some people wanted to have us believe that hll-exclusivity
> was the only way to go.  I challenged that, and never said that all projects
> should be done all-assembler, [...]

You sure *seem* to be saying that. You sure *seem* to be advocating coding
in assembly as a first choice. If you're not, you need to tone things down
a little.
-- 
Peter da Silva                                               `-_-'
$ EDIT/TECO LOVE                                              'U` 
%TECO-W-OLDJOKE Not war?                        Have you hugged your wolf today?
Ferranti Intl. Ctls. Corp.      Sugar Land, TX  77487-5012       +1 713 274 5180
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: johana!tsw@apple.com (Tom Watson)
Subject: Re: Deutsches Museum (was: Zuse Computers
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 03:43:31 GMT
Organization: FBN/GRQ Ink.

In article <714755204.F00001@tdkt.kksys.com>, ddb@tdkt.kksys.com (David Dyer-Bennet) writes:
> 
> 
>  >|> >> It was kind of funny seeing people try to take flash pictures of the
>  >|> >> planetarium screen...
>  >|> >Will those tourists _EVER_ learn?
>  >|>
>  >|> I once visited the Peter's Church in Rome, the biggest church in
>  >|> Christianity. You can see the tourists standing there, trying to
>  >|> lighten the really huge dome with the flash of their pocket cameras.
> 
>  DS> Aw, come on. I can beat that easily. I've seen people take flash pictures
>  DS> of the sunset.
> 
> Or in movies.  Really, I've seen it.  
> 
Or a TV/Computer screen.  Actually taking non-flash pictures of a TV screen
is a good method of checking calibration of the shutter.  Exact methods
left as an excercise to the user.
------
Tom Watson
johana!tsw@apple.com

Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.unix.misc
From: peterd@pjd.dev.cdx.mot.com (Peter Desnoyers)
Subject: Re: The need for an assembler (was: Favorite CPU)
Organization: Motorola Codex, Canton, Massachusetts
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 19:13:54 GMT


You know, one thing that's getting lost in this flamefest is the
difference between using assembly language and knowing the architecture
of a computer. The first is irrelevant to most modern software engineering;
the second is important. (perhaps this distinction is more obvious to me
because instead of an undergrad course in assembler, I had one where we
wired up ALUs and buses, then wrote microcode, then some assembler)

In particular, I don't think it matters whether someone learns the 
assembler of the latest machine-du-jour, or KA-10 assembler, or even 
MIX code I suppose. It especially doesn't matter if they ever learn to
write a macro or use an ORG statement. What does matter is that they 
get an idea of how the machine works.

Unfortunately, merely writing programs in assembler doesn't mean that
someone knows the first thing about the machine involved. A friend of
mine relates the following story:
  
  Looking at another programmer's code, he noticed that a 32K input buffer
  was being cleared after every line of input, with a single assembler
  block set instruction. He pointed out that the mean input length was
  probably less than 100 bytes, and that by keeping a high-water-mark
  variable, only a small fraction of that buffer would need to be cleared
  in the expected case.
  
  The response: "Why on earth would I do that? It would take more
  instructions!" Much like Spinal Tap with their blind faith in amps that
  go to 11, this person was unable to grasp the concept that certain
  instructions might take longer than others, and somehow expected 
  some 32 thousand bytes, on the other side of a 16-bit bus, to change
  state instantaneously. Because his code had only one instruction.
 
The story may be apocryphal, but the moral is real. What is interesting
is that most of the people today who write in assembler "because they
like to" are like this clueless programmer. They are missing some part
of the big picture, and are optimizing a totally pointless dimension of
the problem at hand.

				Peter Desnoyers
-- 
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: berry@athos.pei.com (Berry Kercheval)
Subject: Re: CyC project
Reply-To: berry@pei.com
Organization: Protocol Engines, Inc., Mt. View, California
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1992 20:56:08 GMT

>>>>> On Tue, 25 Aug 1992 10:26:05 GMT, xexeo@dxcern.cern.ch (Geraldo Xexeo) said:

Geraldo> A recent issue of Scientific American cited the CyC being done
Geraldo> at MCC, Austin. The CyC (say 'psych') is a database with currently
Geraldo> 2 Mrules, and its creators say when it arrives 10Mrules it should
Geraldo> be intelligent. I

This of course, leads to the question:  "If CyC is intelligent, is
turning it off murder?" (much beloved of SF writers...)

Is it still murder if you turn it back on?  If you restore from a
backup?  Does it have rights?  Can it make contracts?  Own property?
Vote?



  --berry
--
Berry Kercheval :: berry@pei.com :: Protocol Engines, Inc.  Mt. View, CA
"Car pool fatigue: it's like shell shock, but you don't get any VA benefits.
They just fill your gas tank and send you back to the front."
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: jimf@centerline.com (Jim Frost)
Subject: Re: The need for an assembler (was: Favorite CPU)
Organization: CenterLine Software, Inc.
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 14:05:10 GMT

lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) writes:
>>>Why do I want a language where I have to help the compiler out by using
>>>odd syntax for labels?
>>
>>Funny, you never seem to complain about numerical labels in Fortran.

>Fortran has no "singled-out" feature implemented in bastardized form like
>PASCAL.  Further, there have been non-standard implementations of Fortran
>around for years that allow symbolic labels on gotos.

There have been non-standard implementations of Pascal around for
years that allow symbolic labels on gotos.

In fact, I've never used a Pascal that *didn't* have symbolic labels
(I can't say the same for FORTRAN).

>>>Why would I want to use a language where you need
>>>FORWARD statements because it doesn't do enough passes to do it without me?
>>
>>Why slow the compiler down for programmers who wouldn't use the language
>>anyway :-)

>A silly remark that doesn't answer the question.  This is a major ugly
>feature of the language: all internal procedures have to come first, and
>when they reference each other, a kludge is needed to pull it off.

That's what happens when you have type-safe languages.  You'll find
that predeclaration is also necessary in most other type-safe
languages.  It's true, it's to help out the compiler.  So what?

>BTW, if HLL theory is that it abstracts what computers actually do,
>then why the deficiency in so many languages regarding goto?  Do people
>believe that computers lack program control branch instructions?

Nope, but using abstracted branches (if/else, for, while, repeat, etc)
leads to much easier-to-follow code.  Easier-to-follow code is the
goal in a large project, since the code has to be developed and
maintained by many people.

Happy hacking,

jim frost
jimf@centerline.com
From: geschwent@vax.muskingum.edu
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: You know when you're hacking too long when...
Date: 30 Aug 92 23:15:56 -0600
Organization: Muskingum College

In article <1992Aug25.053335.22465@blaze.cs.jhu.edu>, arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee) writes:
> In article <a=anyyn@lynx.unm.edu> quirk@pioneer.unm.edu (Gym Z. Quirk) writes:
>>Come to think of it, It's probably some marketoid's miscalculation.
>>He included the bun in the list of ingredients (making a total of 10)
>>and forgot to consider the consequences of *not* having a bun.

One tends to agree, but nobody has pointed out that *a bun* consists of
2 objects itself, thus 11, etc.

P.K.
From: lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Better dead than IBM
Date: 31 Aug 92 05:08:40 GMT
Reply-To: lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner)
Organization: Columbia University

In article <fstuart.920827112330@lab16.eng.auburn.edu> fstuart@eng.auburn.edu (Frank Stuart) writes:
>What does IBM *really* stand for?  Let me know if you know the answer and
>I'll post a summary in a week or two.
>
>To get the ball rolling, here are some suggestions from the Jargon File:
>
>   Inferior But Marketable
>   It's Better Manually
>   Insidious Black Magic
>   It's Been Malfunctioning
>   Incontinent Bowel Movement
>   International Business Machines
>
>I also like "Incredibly Boring Machines".

I thought it was:

IBM: you can get better anywhere, but you can't pay more.

cjl
From: vargish@sura.net (Nick Vargish)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Better dead than IBM
Date: 27 Aug 92 21:37:27 GMT
Organization: SURAnet, College Park, MD, USA, NA, Earth, Milky Way

I've always liked: "Iron Behemoth Makers" myself.

Nick


-- 
|  Nick Vargish       |                N O N   S E R V I A M                  |
|  SURAnet Operations +-------------------------------------------------------+
|  vargish@sura.net   |  I wasn't hired to speak for SURAnet, and if my boss  |
|  h: 301 474-1863    |  thought I was trying to do so, she'd laugh at me...  |
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: samw@bucket.rain.com (Sam Warden)
Subject: Re: "GOTO-less" BASIC
Organization: Rick's Home-Grown Un*x
Date:  4 Sep 92 17:27:55 GMT

dpbsmith@world.std.com (Daniel P. B. Smith) writes:

>He was deprecating the use of statements like
>    IF <condition> THEN GOTO 210
>and recommending their replacement by statements like
>    IF <condition> THEN 210

Maybe he was thinking of "eliminating GOTOs" in the one and
only meaningful sense: when your boss greps your collected works
for the dreaded string itself (this, along with a wc, being 
the sum total of `performance review').  8-)  8-)  8-)

(Please note: I am NOT suggesting that professional coding is
done in line-numbered BASIC.  On the other hand, from some of
the management I've seen....)  8-)  8-)  8-) 
-- 
 
samw@bucket.rain.com (Sam Warden) -- and not a mere Device.
From: koen@blade.stack.urc.tue.nl (Koen Holtman)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: On the care and feeding of GOTOS
Date: 1 Sep 92 13:44:32 GMT
Organization: MCGV Stack, Eindhoven University of Technology, the Netherlands.

In article <1992Sep1.000034.10648@sobeco.com> alawrenc@sobeco.com writes:
>In <5235@tuegate.tue.nl> koen@blade.stack.urc.tue.nl (Koen Holtman) writes:
>>If you can prove that PUX will never drop below zero, then you know that
>>the program will end. Needless to say, proving this is slightly unsimple
>>in most cases.
>
>  Your logic is flawed.  Yes, proving PUX > 0 is a sufficient condition,
>but it is not a necessary condition.  (i.e. recursion where the derived
>value approaches a limit is also ufficient condition). 

Oops! You are right, I forgot about recursion. That's what you get if
you think too much assembly.. (My example was in TMS9900 assembly
language, as some people have guessed, and this language `does' function
calls without a stack. The method used allows for very fast context
switching, but you can't do recursion in it.)

[btw I believe you've got necessary and sufficient mixed up.]

>BTW:  Have you ever considered that all structured concepts are composed
>      of three elements: a) straight line code, b) if then ... else ..., 
>      and c) goto.  And even if then ... else ... breaks down to
>      compare & goto.

They'd better be, if you ever want to compile your program...  But
of course there are N different ways to decompose the structured
constructs, some of which don't even use the concept of computation, so
this doesn't prove anything.


>Andrew Lawrence, Informaticien Conseil           |  alawrenc@sobeco.com

Koen.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
Koen Holtman                  TUE computing science     "Dat zieje wel"
koen@blade.stack.urc.tue.nl    (Ax:*p)==(*p&p!=&x)         --Multatuli
Xref: sparky alt.folklore.computers:12946 alt.folklore.science:3107
From: juola@bruno.cs.colorado.edu (Patrick Juola)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.folklore.science
Subject: Re: LED's and special effects
Date: 24 Aug 92 01:12:09 GMT
Distribution: alt
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder

In article <1992Aug21.193516.15833@doug.cae.wisc.edu> kolstad@cae.wisc.edu (Joel Kolstad) writes:
[ about the LED column idea ]
>
>Nifty trick.  Not too horribly useful, though. :-)
>

Actually, it's quite useful.  If you look at the column's reflection
in a vibrating mirror, you can easily get a full-scale image without
moving your head.   This effect is used a lot to produce floating
displays, like you would want for a HUD or a virtual reality setup.

I've got a couple of references on stuff like this lying around somewhere
if anyone really cares -- there's a recent article called "Cyberspace on
$5 a day" on a gloves and goggles setup using this stuff.

	- kitten
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Better dead than IBM
From: ecmtwhk@ccu1.aukuni.ac.nz (Thomas Koenig)
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 08:47:25 GMT
Organization: University of Auckland, New Zealand.

From my experience on MVS systems, I suspect it is

Insufficient Batch Machines
-- 
Thomas Koenig, ecmtwhk@ccu1.aukuni.ac.nz, ib09@rz.uni-karlsruhe.de
The joy of engineering is to find a straight line on a double logarithmic
diagram.
From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (jeff zeitlin)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: leds, special effects
Date: 1 Sep 92 04:45:27 GMT
Reply-To: "jeff zeitlin" <jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com>
Distribution: alt
Organization: Executive Networks Information

ES::>Speaking of strange effects using red LED's, there's an artist who
  ::>makes a very interesting "light sculpture" by playing on this.

ES::>The device is an LED strip about a meter or two long, mounted on a
  ::>pole several meters high. The strip is about the size of those little
  ::>signs that scroll words using LED's, and flickers at a fast rate. If
  ::>you look at it out of the corner of your eye, moving your head
  ::>rapidly, the LED afterimages somehow "paint" a picture in the air. The
  ::>display cycled through several different pictures.

  Late last year, here in New York, there was one in Grand Central
  Terminal, on the balcony where the Kodak display had recently been
  permanently removed.  It was interesting watching people try to see
  the wheel, or the bell, or whatever it was that day.  There was also
  a pamphlet about it at teh information booth.  I wish I had kept
  one.

  J/
  jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com

 * OLX 2.2 * Pascal is like C with a mother watching you...
--
Executive Network Information System  (914) 667-4567
International ILink Host
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: kenm@compctr.ccs.csus.edu (Ken Montgomery)
Subject: Re: Apple /// (and MANY other computers)
Keywords: antique
Organization: California State University, Sacramento
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 23:34:28 GMT

	Yep, I've got an Apple /// and a II, and a MAC 128, and an Altair
8800 and a 6800. Plus 3 PET's, an Amiga 1000, 4 or so IMSAI's (always hard
to say if you really have any pure type of S-100 system since like the PC
they tended to be made of parts from various manufacturers) 2 Northstars,
a REAL IBM PC, and a REAL IBM XT... ummm let me think..  a Jolt, an Acorn 
(brit), 3 versions of the Exidy Sorcerer, and there's bound to be something
I've forgotten. I'd have to check my list.
	The Apple /// post really just prompted me ask if there are any
other (crazy) persons such as myself who collect 'antique' microcomputers.
I consider anything to be an antique as soon as it's no longer made. Those
of you who collect old mainframes, more power to you! I have enough trouble
storing the micro versions. 
	So, are there any others out there? What do you have/would like
to have? I hope to find an Apple I, and I'd like to add a NeXT to my
collection some day.  Well???
From: esr@snark.thyrsus.com (Eric S. Raymond)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: The need for an assembler (was: Favorite CPU)
Date: 29 Aug 92 23:30:30 GMT

In <14644@mindlink.bc.ca> Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>      This is part of the HLL zealots' argument that I've always had
> trouble with.  Supposedly the purpose of a high-level language is
> to allow you to write your code in a straightforward way that
> readily illustrates the structure of your application.  If we're
> supposed to be free from picky internal details, why then do we
> have to write things in an unnatural order just to satisfy the
> compiler?

You're absolutely right, Charlie... and it's because most of what we call HLLs
aren't really HLL *enough*.

I like C.  I'm very good at C.  C is a clear winner over any other conventional
language I've ever used.  But I spend too damn much of my time in it writing
elaborate storage managers to get around the frippin' fixed-extent types.  And
I know it doesn't have to be that way.

See, before I was a C programmer, I was a Lisp programmer...
-- 
					Eric S. Raymond <esr@snark.thyrsus.com>
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re:  You know when you're hacking too long when...
From: liam@durie.amigans.gen.nz (Liam Greenwood)
Date: 27 Aug 92 20:51:13 GMT+12
Distribution: world
Organization: It's Home, really...

In article <BtI1s9.M4J@hatch.socal.com> richg@hatch.socal.com (Rich Greenberg) writes:
>. . . instead of phoning someone local (same company, same city) you
>send email even when you know they have voicemail/answering machine.
    ...or you e-mail a file to someone who is at the next desk, working on
the same machine 'cause it's 'easier' than telling them where it is, and then
tell them to read their mail. Hmmm, I wonder why he gave me the strange look
though...

--
 Liam Greenwood ------ liam@durie.amigans.gen.nz ------ Wanganui, N.Z.
                Don't tell my Mother I'm a programmer,
              she thinks I'm a piano player in a brothel

From: ddb@tdkt.kksys.com (David Dyer-Bennet)
Sender: FredGate@tdkt.kksys.com
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Indentation
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 21:40:16 -0600

 >>I'd like to try a C/C++ compiler with an option to issue a warning
 >>message if a subservient statement were farther left than the
 >>statement it's subservient to.  Note I said warning, and of course
 >>all warning should be individually disableable (is that a word? well,
 >>it is now :-).  This would catch the occasional misindentation, or
 >>the (very rare, I'm glad to say) cases where I got confused and
 >>stayed confused for an extended period.

 DS> Isn't that one of the values of
 DS> indent(1)?  

Sure, but that still depends on me to spot the difference.  Better
than nothing, but not all I'd want.  Also, I don't necessarily want
to run a module of somebody elses code through indent just because
I'm making a couple of little tweaks.  Or even my own code; sometimes
complex statements really benefit from hand-tuned layout.

 * Origin: May these events not cost thy servant money (1:282/341.0)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.unix.misc
From: lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner)
Subject: Re: The need for an assembler (was: Favorite CPU)
Reply-To: lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner)
Organization: Columbia University
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 08:29:22 GMT

In article <1992Aug31.183437.17219@yarc.uucp> scott@yarc.UUCP (Scott Beckstead) writes:
                                                         Assmebly has it's
>place so do HLL but there is NO RIGHT WAY to learn it or write it nor
>is there any magic bullet in assembly to fix all your problems.  As long 
>as you have a design spec and a design goal clearly laid out you can't 
>go wrong in whatever implementation you choose.

I totally agree.  Any language can be the wrong one, just as any arbitrary
programmer can be the wrong one for the job.  It is always possible to 
write piss-poor code no matter what the application.  Good people won't
screw up no matter what the language they choose is.

The problem is that there is a segment of our industry that doesn't "play"
by these rules.  Your self-assessment doesn't indicate you're part of the
problem at all, but none of us are totally representative of what's going
on.

Knuth calls his work the *art* of programming.  There are too many people
that believe you can be merely *taught* to program.  Like any art, this
is patently false.  You can be exposed to the "spark" of the programming
environment, but the rest comes from within you, not any purely academic
exercise.

When the hll zealots go away, the flames will go away.  My position has
been made abundantly clear on the rest.

cjl
From: mst@vexpert.dbai.tuwien.ac.at (Markus Stumptner)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Flash Pictures Of The Sunset
Date: 27 Aug 92 16:22:56 GMT
Organization: DB and ES Subdivision, TU Vienna

From article <714915037.F00001@tdkt.kksys.com>, by ddb@tdkt.kksys.com (David Dyer-Bennet):
>  CEB> sneer at people who work at removing
>  CEB> choice from other people's lives.
 
> Like those who design cameras where you can't override the flash.

I'd say that's exactly the intended meaning of the above sentence.
-- 
Markus Stumptner                                mst@vexpert.dbai.tuwien.ac.at
University of Technology Vienna                 vexpert!mst@relay.eu.net
Paniglg. 16, A-1040 Vienna, Austria             ...mcsun!vexpert!mst
Organization: Freshman, Math/Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 14:58:11 -0400 
From: Samuel Roy Helwig <sh4j+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Apple ///


    Hello,

    Anyone on here still have an Apple ///??
    If you have one (or... horrors... still use one :-)), please mail me.


                --Sam

                  sh4j@andrew.cmu.edu
From: APPMS@CUNYVM.BITNET (Alexandre Pechtchanski)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Analog device
Date: 25 Aug 92 20:18:41 GMT
Organization: City University of New York/ University Computer Center

Hi, netters:

I suspect this is the wrong group to post it (so flame me :-), but it is
the only one of groups I've read which ever mentioned analog computers
(c.f. recent articles by V. Antonow et al. ;-).  Now to the business:
I have a friend w/out access to net who asked me to post following
(actually it was me who bragged so long about internet access to all and
every corner of world, that ...Ah, me and my big mouth ... never mind ;-).
Anyway, he invented something analog and if instead of flaming me you
forward this message to somebody you know who is in analog computer
business, you'll make me feel better and will do your good deed forthe
day.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Alex Pechtchanski, GCRC System Manager   Phone: (212) 241-1804
Mount Sinai Medical Center, New York  :-------------------------
internet: desnick@msvax.mssm.edu      :#include <std.disclaimer>
bitnet:   appms@cunyvm                :
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Opinions?  If you find one, please let me know...
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Message follows:
----------------------------  cut here  ----------------------------
                                              Yakov Drabovskiy
                                              303 Avenue P Apt E2
                                              Brooklyn NY 11204

If you are interested in a modelling (analog) device which can
imitate a wide class of functions without approximation, add, multiply,
and divide them please contact me for details.

Sincerely,              Yakov Drabovskiy
---------------------------------------------------------------------
end of message

Naturally, I'll forward any e-mail to him if e-mail is preferrable to
snail-mail