From: cbbrowne@csi.uottawa.ca (Christopher Browne)
Subject: Re: Reform Party 
Organization: Dept. of Computer Science, University of Ottawa
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 92 21:30:10 GMT

In article <schuck.722548753@sfu.ca> Bruce_Schuck@sfu.ca writes:
>cbbrowne@csi.uottawa.ca (Christopher Browne) writes:
>
>
>
>>The Reform Party, in seeking ways of "balancing" the Central Canada
>>majority, is trying to sell reforms which are NOT democratic when
>>considered at the Federal level, but which seem "pretty good" in that
>>they would (at least in theory) give power to people that have been
>>traditionally under-represented.
>
>>Unfortunately, the proposals are neither democratic nor "federal," EEE
>>being a good case in point.
>
>A Triple E Senate is the very *essence* of federal democracy.
>
>In the US the Senate is equal [ actually more equal in some instances]
>with the House of Representatives.
>
>In Australia, the Senate is equal with the House of Commons.

What do the two examples of countries with Senates that you've
mentioned have in common?  Hmmm...  They wouldn't have any British
traditions in effect, would they?

The Senate is a vestige of the Parliamentary system invented by the
Brits.  It represents a somewhat less aristocratic version of the
House of Lords.  It's primarily less aristocratic in that Senators are
not, in fact Lords or Ladies.  (I'll draw your attention to the fact
that the most notable member of late of the original House of Lords,
one Lady Thatcher...)

>In a *federal* democracy, their are two *equal* houses, one based on
>equality of the people, and one based on equality of the
>Provinces/States.

In a *Parliamentary* democracy, there are two houses that over the
centuries have vied for ultimate authority.  The House of Commons won,
as it is designed to represent the people, whereas the House of Lords
is not.

>When Central Canadians say the Triple E Senate is *not* democratic and
>*not* federal, what they really mean is they are greedy assholes who
>have no intention of ever giving any real power to the other provinces.

As I said some time ago, I suggest that you read your dictionary
again.  You won't find the word "Senate" ANYWHERE under the definition
of the term "Federal."

Federal = "System in which powers are shared between provincial
governments and a central government."

That is the distinguishing characteristic of a "federal" system.
That's how you tell the difference between a system that is federal,
and one which is NOT.

Great Britain has an equivalent to the Senate, that they call the
House of Lords.  It does not make them a federal system - they do NOT
use a federal system.

Check out the entry on federalism in Hurtig's Canadian Encyclopaedia.
He's no "Eastern Jerk", yet I defy you to find reference to the
purported "fact" that "True Federalism really means EEE."  

Based on the history and the definition of federalism, EEE has NOTHING
to do with federalism.  That's not just a "bigoted Easterner" stating
a greedy opinion - that's a simple fact.

If you'd read the rest of the posting, you might have noticed that I
said that the East DOES have a disproportionately high level of power
over affairs outside the East, and that the West has a correspondingly
LOW level of influence on affairs relating to them.  

This fact is a problem.  Westerners are unhappy about it.  There's a
lot of hatred towards the East because of it.  You wouldn't be calling
me names if there wasn't some dislike involved.

Unfortunately, EEE isn't the solution, because it's trying to change
the Federal government in ways that are by nature antidemocratic.
Since democracy is (at some level) the rule of the majority, changing
the system so that the "majority don't rule" would be anti-democratic.
The fact that it might seemingly fix some problems (while it probably
creates new ones) doesn't change the fact that it's anti-democratic.

If I had the solution, then I should be prime minister :-).  I don't
have the ultimate solution.  Maybe the ultimate solution doesn't
exist.  I'm pretty sure that EEE isn't the ticket to "true
federalism."

-- 
Christopher Browne                |     PGP 2.0 key available
cbbrowne@csi.uottawa.ca           |===================================
University of Ottawa              |  The Personal Computer:  Colt 45
Master of System Science Program  |  of the Information Frontier
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