Newsgroups: soc.culture.bangladesh,soc.culture.indian,soc.culture.pakistan
Subject: Re: Babri Masjid demolished
From: shariq@charlie.usd.edu
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 20:02:24 GMT
Reply-To: shariq@charlie.usd.edu
 <92342.162129U15297@uicvm.uic.edu> <1992Dec8.061048.379@news2.cis.umn.edu>,<1992Dec8.223010.45506@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu>
Organization: The University of South Dakota Computer Science Dept.

In article <1992Dec8.223010.45506@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu>, dchatterjee@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu writes:
>In article <1992Dec8.061048.379@news2.cis.umn.edu>, agupta@knife.cs.umn.edu 
>>(Anshul Gupta) writes:
>> 
>> In article <BywC6G.241@ucunix.san.uc.edu>, bhatnagr@ucunix.san.uc.edu (Raj
>> Bhatnagar) says:
>>>
>>....... (deleted) .......
>> Why are you forgetting that Aryans (to be Hindus) were crude nomadic
>> "invaders" who invaded India and destroyed a much more culturally,
>> scientifically and intellectually advanced Indus Valley Civilization.
>  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>   Yes, the Indus valley civilization was much advanced scientifically - as
>   the ruins of Mohenjo-daro and Harappa show. However, following the invasion
>   decades/ centuries later Aryans imparted knowledge to the populace there
>   that was equal if not more than the Mohenjo-daro civilization. In the same
>   token, Alexander the Great also invaded India - war with Porus on the banks
>   of Jheelum. But cultural exchange between the two civilizations helped one
>   to learn from each other. (Please see the history books by Toynbee.) FYI,
>   we *learnt* deductive analysis in mathematics from the Greeks. The book
>   by E.T.Bell (Development of Mathematics) conjectures that Diphantaine had
>   actually taken the ideas of algebra from Hindus - Brahmagupta, Bhaskara
>   and others. Thus, this was the " effect " of Greek invasion. We (Hindus)
>   record the memory of Greeks with much affection as it positively enriched
>   our engineering and mathematical faculties. Is that a negative aspect ?
>   
>> Regarding Muslims as mere invaders is a very narrow historical perspective.
>  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>  ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? 
>  Then regarding persons like Babar, Mahmood of Ghaznavi as benefactors of
>  the Hindu society is appropriate, huh ? Tomorrow you might say that the
>  Great Noble Emperor Aurangzeb "kurnished" all Hindus as he rode by ? I am
>  surprised at your evaluation, sir ! In most cases, conversion to Islam was
>  forced - in case of lower classes. The latter was the serious defect of the
>  Hindu caste system - that reached its most putrefying form in the middle
>  ages. 
>
So now you are in Kansas eh Deb! As far as conversion is concerned other than
Aurangzeb, none of the Mughal leaders were fanatic and if they really did force 
religion on the people the Hindu religion would have been wiped out because 
400 years of rule is indeed a long time. People converted to Islam because it 
provided justice to them, and not because it was forced upon them. Certainly
the lower castes would convert because they would have liked to get out of the
place in society they "inherited" as a birth right. Does a Harijan have a place
in the Hindu caste system? Yeah, but at the very bottom. Now do not say that
this was in the past and all that crap because it is a known fact that the
castes are labelled even today.

>   Regarding the British, we (Indians) have the same feelings. The Westernized
>   approach towards life, the "Western Science" etc. are *all* (however bad it
>   may appear to you), are bounties of the British invaders. Can you deny that 
>   fact ? Contrary to the two above, what did Hindus gain culturally from the
>   Muslim invaders ? Who destroyed the University of Nalanda - the famous
>   chemical laboratory of Shilbhadra - as recorded by Fa Hien ? Just show me 
>   what positive aspect have we (Hindus) gained from Muslim rule for 1000 years
>   in India. (In fact, Morris Kline's book records that Omar Khayyam - a noted
>   scholar - verstatile in many sciences and arts had his works subdued by
>   the Muslim rulers in his age. BTW, Kline was a famous mathematician at the
>   Courant Institute, NYU. He died 4 months ago)
>
Oh you talk about destruction of this and that. What did you gain from Muslims?
I will tell you. India and Hindus got so enriched by the the Muslim rule and
still you say what did we gain culturally from the Muslim rule? The Taj
Mahal,the Kutub Minar, the Tehzeeb, the cuisine are few of the countless gains
from the Muslim culture.Above all, the cultural diversity which is the identity
of modern India is also a gift of the Muslim invaders. I could go on, and I
would appreciate if you would ask me all this personally. Omar Khayyam was not 
Hindu. He infact was Arab, and your loud claim that Algebra was originated in
India is false because it was developed in the Arab world after Islam had been 
bestowed upon them. Algebra is derived from the Arab word Al-Jabr meaning the
alphabet. Early Arab Islamic scholars infact provided the base on which the
Western World build its monument of knowledge. This is an acknowledged fact.So
the Muslims were not just mere invaders.

>   This does *not* condone the acts of some rascals in Ayodhya. This is related
>   to the moral of the wolf and sheep fable(I hope you know that). The people
>   preaching/ demonstrating communal violence in Ayodhya must be punished by
>   the law there. The GOI *has* done that - if you are aware of it, sir ???
>
Yes indeed the GOI has punished these chauvanistic and screwed up organizations
and that is a step in the right direction but I doubt it if we have seen the
last of these rascals.

>   I might conclude that you need to train yourself in analysing the history
>   more closely before making stupid, garbage, putrid - that can at best be 
>   recognized as reconciliatory statements - full of falsehood.
>
See that is a subjective thing! I may regard your statements the same way.
>>.... (deleted)....
>>Anushul Gupta
>> agupta@cs.umn.edu
>>
>     - deb chatterjee
>    (a good samaritan) 
Shariq.

Hail Pakistan, the world champions of the greatest game ever.


P.S . This is a message to all the people on the net reading this article. You 
know all the big statements many of us make on the SCP or whatever it may be; 
do you guys really mean what you say, or if you were to met an adversary on the 
net out in the open, would you run a million miles away? 
Don't get offended! Just a mere query!
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bangladesh,soc.culture.indian,soc.culture.pakistan