HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: guddt@uniwa.uwa.edu.au (David Bennett)
Subject: Re: Driver additions
Organization: University of Western Australia
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 07:21:03 GMT

oakley@contra.enet.dec.com (The Zeeker) writes:


>In article <17h567INNs0r@darkstar.UCSC.EDU>, beeman@cats.ucsc.edu (Adam Beeman) writes...
>>closely for comparison... nor have I seen anything of BatMUD's.  But
>>there is no standardization committee, there is no real agreement.

>	Seems to me that it would be a good idea to START a standardization
>	committee.  From what I see, everything's pretty chaotic right now.

Can you seriosly see Amylaar and the CD people to agree on something?
Or for that matter TMI agreeing with the rest of the world.  Everyone
has their own idea's however strong.  This language is not like C where
a committe creates a standard for it because everyone uses it.  Even
then....  How many #define's for different machines do you see in any
given bit of "portable" C code?  Whats so standard about C anyway...

David.
[DDT] Pink fish forever.
-- 
  David Bennett,  guddt@uniwa.uwa.oz.au | University Computer Club
     Where Pink fish swim backwards.    | c/o Guild of Undergraduates
These words I am singing now mean nothing more than meow to an animal - TMBG
Disclaimer: Any spelling mistakes in this article are all entirly my fault.  Any grammer errors spotted in this article were put there because I could.
From: jlw@HEBREW.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU (James Waldrop)
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.lp
Subject: Re: various TMI gripes
Date: 27 Aug 92 00:11:46 GMT

Zeek writes:
>djohnson@cs.ucsd.edu (Darin Johnson) writes...
>>But TMI is *not* a playing environment.  It's an environment for
>>people to program LPC in, show off nifty toys, ask questions, etc.
>>There are of holes in TMI when it comes to using it for a game.
>>
>>	Well, I installed the TMI game driver and `mudlib' a month or
>>	so ago, tried it for a week or so and was not impressed a great
>>	deal.  Stick with the 3.1.2 game driver.  I have yet to experience
>	any problems with it
>	
>	Zeek

Ok, I'm going to respond to Darin and Zeek both at once.  Possibly
conserve a bit of bandwith, yippee-yay.

First of all, no, the TMI mudlib as it stands is not really a playing
system.  All it does is point the way towards developing one.  A lot
of people on this group believe that having another 2.4.5 out there
that everyone grabs to start up their mud would be a step backwards.
Life is interesting right now with muds, and everyone who is screaming
for a standard mudlib should consider what it might cause.  No, TMI
doesn't have money, or a coherent attack system, but it does show
someone some useful ideas about multiple inheritance, and gives a
lot of sample code to be looked at.  If you/anyone isn't interested
in developing your own approach to things, then I don't really care
enough to give you a leg up in starting a mud that will look like
50 others for the first year.

And to Zeek I say, no, 3.1.2 doesn't have problems that scream out at
you to put it out of its misery, but it also doesn't have a lot of
nice little thingies that can make writing an interesting mudlib a
lot easier.  And it's certainly buggier than MudOS (can we say memory
leaks?).

Sulam
From: jlw@HEBREW.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU (James Waldrop)
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.lp
Subject: testing
Date: 26 Aug 92 22:20:26 GMT


this is a test to see if I can overcome a Pnews bug...  :)

sulam
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.lp
From: amylaar@mcshh.Hanse.DE (Joern Rennecke)
Subject: Re: **** TOP 10 LPMUDs ****
Organization: Point of Presence & MCS Hamburg
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 19:48:32 GMT

djohnson@cs.ucsd.edu (Darin Johnson) writes:

>But anyway - wouldn't it be nice if someone were to work on *official*
>changes to 3.1.2 in Lars absence?  All sorts of people have bug fixes,
>speedups, new features (some slow, some fast), etc, but they won't
>ever get into the real parser...

How do you define the real parser, in the absence of lars?

	Amylaar
From: d8andjo@dtek.chalmers.se (Johan Andersson)
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.lp
Subject: Re: Multi-inheritance problem.
Date: 31 Aug 92 17:36:00 GMT
Organization: Chalmers University of Technology, Sweden
In-reply-to: roarb@colargol.edb.tih.no's message of 26 Aug 92 02:13:04 GMT

In article <1992Aug26.021304.28298@ugle.unit.no> roarb@colargol.edb.tih.no (Roar Brekken) writes:

  [ multiple inheritance magic ]

Now hear this...

Multiple inheritance in LPC is badly implemented. It is a kludge hinged on
as an afterthought. It should be expected to behave strangely.

Having said that, MI in LPC works fairly well for what it is normally
used for, namely inheriting disjunct set of functions and variables. It is
when you start having the same functions/variables in the parents you inherit
that strangeness occurs.

As I understand it, one of the fundamental errors in the design is the
way that 'local' functions are called. A typical example is your 'bing'
functions. The GD searches 'current_object' for masking functions, it does
not call the function that was found during compile time, i.e. in
'current_program'. This search sometimes seem to fail too.

Essentially all calls are semantically equal to a this_object()->func()

I believe this is true even for 'private' functions... horrible...

When someone starts writing 4.0, this is the first thing that should
get fixed. Doing it now in 3.0 would change the semantics much to much,
I'm afraid. I think we must live with the horrors of MI.

FYI, before it even worked as it does now, we had it nicknamed 'RI' for
random inheritance here at CD. You never knew what function would be called.
For you CDlibbers out there... This is one of the main reasons for all the
#include "name.c" in files like player_sec.c, living.c etc.

/Johan
--
Johan Andersson           | "You don`t have conversations with microprocessors
Chalmers, Sweden          | you tell them what to do, and then you helplessly
Email:                    | watch the disaster when they take you literally."
d8andjo@dtek.chalmers.se  |	Sah`ot in David Brins "Startide Rising"
From: djohnson@cs.ucsd.edu (Darin Johnson)
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.lp
Subject: Re: various TMI gripes
Date: 27 Aug 92 03:14:00 GMT
Organization: =CSE Dept., U.C. San Diego

>Life is interesting right now with muds, and everyone who is screaming
>for a standard mudlib should consider what it might cause.

Actually, I wasn't screaming for a standard mudlib.  (a standard 
driver is another matter :-)  A minimal functional standard mudlib
might be nice - one that required effort to get it running, but
solves a lot of problems that people have (how to do security, etc).
TMI is such a system.  I was just responding to people who keep saying
it's the best mudlib since sliced bread just pop it in and go.

I used 5 different ftp-able mudlibs when designing my own, and TMI
definately had some good ideas and stuff.  Of course, all 5 had different
design goals (and most of them assumed a fast machine *sigh*).

As for 50 identical muds being a bad idea - well, at least it'll
keep the geeks away from ours :-)

> And it's certainly buggier than MudOS (can we say memory leaks?).

I have been thinking about using MudOS off and on.  Two drawbacks
though.  First, a pipe dream, is that 3.1.3 might come out :-)
Second is that it would take yet another year to get it working
most likely.  Wait!  Don't hit me!  Perfectly valid code messes
up on our machine, for example: the following fprintf actually
*does* show up in our logs.   (in stralloc.c)

    char * findstring(s)
    char * s;
    {
            char * curr, *prev;
            int h = StrHash(s);

            if (h >HTABLE_SIZE) {   /* should not happen */
                fprintf(stderr, "STRHASH OUT OF RANGE!!!!!\n");
                h = h%HTABLE_SIZE;  /* sigh */
            }

But at least with our machine, we don't have to worry about looking
for a new site every year :-)
-- 
Darin Johnson
djohnson@ucsd.edu
    Strange things are afoot at the circle-K...
From: jacob@fy.chalmers.se (Jacob Hallen)
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.lp
Subject: Re: saving object pointers
Date: 29 Aug 92 06:25:24 GMT
Organization: Chalmers University of Technology, G|teborg, Sweden

In article <mmcg.715038122@bruce.cs.monash.edu.au> mmcg@cs.monash.edu.au (Mike  Mc Gaughey) writes:
>jlw@HEBREW.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU (James Waldrop) writes:
>
>>>What do you think object pointers are FOR?
>
>>To point to objects, can't you read Mike?  If the object isn't there,
>>what the hell are you going to point to?
>
>Waldrop, you fucking moron, can't you READ?
>
>The original post said:
>
>> When a restore_object was done, an object would be cloned up
>> for each of the subobject values in the file, and restored
>> into.  Thus, players would get back all their items, and could
>> even be restored back to the room they were in before the crash
>> if we wanted to.
>
>Dickhead.
>--
>Mike McGaughey			AARNET:	mmcg@bruce.cs.monash.edu.au
>
>"Head stompin', ass kickin', finger licking nastiness"

This flame is substandard. It scores a 1.5 for originality (on a 1-10
scale) and a 2 on artistic impression. When you flame you should keep
a nice blue flame on your blowtorch, so you can cut deep gashes in the
flesh. These high octane words just produce colourful fireworks with
no penetrating effect. After all I had expected much more from "The
Best Brains in the Universe" (TM).

Jacob Hallen

Btw, did you know that the average IQ is higher in Australia than in
the US? Australia has more sheep than lawyers.
From: ucs_rjd@SHSU.EDU
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.lp
Subject: Re: **** TOP 10 LPMUDs ****
Date: 25 Aug 92 23:58:38 GMT
Article-I.D.: ctr.1992Aug25.235838.13734
Reply-To: ucs_rjd@SHSU.EDU
Organization: Sam Houston State University, Huntsville, Texas
X-Posted-From: freya.shsu.edu
X-Posted-Through: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

I kinda like to use 2 muds to do 2 different things......
If I want to player kill for awhile there is nothing better than Genocide:
   192.92.115.10 2222
Then when I want to play there is Highlands:
   192.92.115.10 2000
You are not a player killer until you've beaten the best on Genocide.

Just thought I'd share some stuff.
Raphael a.k.a Raistlin(Admin of Highlands)
Email: ucs_rjd@shsu.edu
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.lp
From: oakley@contra.enet.dec.com (The Zeeker)
Subject: Re: **** TOP 10 LPMUDs ****
Organisation: Treadstone Seventy-One
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation, Maynard, MA.
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 00:56:30 GMT


In article <37238@sdcc12.ucsd.edu>, djohnson@cs.ucsd.edu (Darin Johnson) writes...
>But TMI is *not* a playing environment.  It's an environment for
>people to program LPC in, show off nifty toys, ask questions, etc.
>There are of holes in TMI when it comes to using it for a game.

	Well, I installed the TMI game driver and `mudlib' a month or
	so ago, tried it for a week or so and was not impressed a great
	deal.  Stick with the 3.1.2 game driver.  I have yet to experience
	any problems with it
	
	Zeek

>-- 
>Darin Johnson
>djohnson@ucsd.edu
>  - I'm not a well adjusted person, but I play one on the net.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Brought to you by Treadstone Seventy-One Corporation.
--- --- --- | /  "Come not between the dragon and his wroth!"
 /  |-  |-  |    		- Lear, King of England
--- --- --- | \
_________________________________________________________________
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.lp
From: amylaar@mcshh.Hanse.DE (Joern Rennecke)
Subject: Re: Driver additions
Organization: Point of Presence & MCS Hamburg
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 20:43:35 GMT

oakley@contra.enet.dec.com (The Zeeker) writes:


>In article <17h567INNs0r@darkstar.UCSC.EDU>, beeman@cats.ucsc.edu (Adam Beeman) writes...
>>closely for comparison... nor have I seen anything of BatMUD's.  But
>>there is no standardization committee, there is no real agreement.

>	Seems to me that it would be a good idea to START a standardization
>	committee.  From what I see, everything's pretty chaotic right now.

Bad timing. There is to be a quantum leap in expressive power in the near
future, lest we get stuck with AI.

	Amylaar
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.lp
From: darius@starbird.WPI.EDU (Christopher Scanlon)
Subject: Re: * PEACE PLEASE! *
Summary: And I was hoping there would be more than a flame war here.
Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 11:38:52 GMT

In article <michael.715052408@pv0237.vincent.iastate.edu> michael@iastate.edu (Michael M. Huang) writes:
>Come on guys.  I do believe most of us can spend the time flaming here in
>something more productive (sheeesh, even playing in muds is more productive
>than all these flames).  First few hundred flames are okay.  But, when you 
>get into millions.... Well, time to stop, people.
>
Agreed there Michael.  A few flames is ok, but this has been blown a bit
out of proportion.  I mean, aren't most of the people doing all this work
on their systems for fun?  Why are we fighting over it?
As far as an "official" release of LPMud?  Official releases I consider
come from Genesis.  Other stuff like DR, MudOS, SW, are just different
Mudlibs are just alternatives so we don't have a bunch of Genesis clones
running the nets [thank god, sucked a year ago walking on to most muds
and seeing the same stat system, same level system, etc; Unless you had
a really good set of archwizards and gods who would dare mutilate the files
to get something REALLY original.]

>But, then again, whoever listens to anyone on the net anyway. ;)
>
But why listen when you can fight fight fight fight fight! 
:) <--- for humor impaired

>-michael
>
>-- 
>Michael Ming-Yang Huang                                michael@iastate.edu
>PV Student Dev. Group &                                (michaelhg@ids.net)
>Carver/Vis. Lab Assist         "A mind is such a terrible thing to waste."
>Iowa State Univ, Ames, IA      I speak for myself an' not of my employers.

Christopher Scanlon : darius@wpi.wpi.edu : Darius @ Aegolous Acadicus
Daroki @ Paradox, Valhalla, PhoenixMUD, Ancient Anguish, and Demon World


Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.lp
From: amylaar@mcshh.Hanse.DE (Joern Rennecke)
Subject: Re: **** TOP 10 LPMUDs ****
Organization: Point of Presence & MCS Hamburg
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 20:22:47 GMT

guddt@uniwa.uwa.edu.au (David Bennett) writes:

>oakley@contra.enet.dec.com (The Zeeker) writes:

>>	What things are you talking about?  

>>init() { add_action("exit","exit"); }

This gives an error. So what?

>>exit() { this_player()->move_player("X#room/church");  return 1; }

>>*snicker*  That can cause serious problems.  Or slowing the mud to a

I tried it. Not THAT bad, after all. Trying to leave the room gives too
deep recursion.
Updating the room gives two such errors before destructing the player object.
If you think that's that important, you can make
master::destruct_environment_of() fiddling with catch and exec to give the
player a new body.

>There are bugs in the standard 3.1.2 dist that can crash the mud on
>syntax errors.  I dont have any examples here (I tend to try and
>delete/eat them) but they do exist.

Post them, mail them to me, whatever, but don't delete them. Reproducible
errors are an almost extinct species.

>(Then there was the time I managed to get it so that running ed crashed
>the mud....)

When you use up too much memory with ed, no big deal...
But then, you could use shutdown() as well.

	Amylaar
From: trsnyder@mcs.Drexel.edu (Bob Snyder)
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.lp
Subject: Re: Driver additions (was Re: **** TOP 10 LPMUDs ****)
Date: 1 Sep 92 17:19:37 GMT
	<UEKLEINF.92Aug24152827@queen.mcs.Drexel.edu>
	<1992Aug25.004845.19935@rat.csc.calpoly.edu> <1554@lysator.liu.se>
Organization: GE Aerospace, Advanced Technology Labs, Moorestown, NJ

>>>>> In article <1554@lysator.liu.se>, pen@lysator.liu.se (Peter
>>>>> Eriksson) writes:

Peter> Actually, I myself has a hard time understating all the people
Peter> asking for standard LPMUD drivers and (even worse!) standard
Peter> MUDLIBs.. For heavens sake, if one is just out to start Yet
Peter> Another MUD (YAMUD), looking just like all the others - then
Peter> what's the point? Then one could just as well play on one of
Peter> those that already exists...

The main advantage would be for wizards, in that the lfuns remain the same.
A standard allowed people to wiz on a mud, dump their castle there, and leave,
as I know at least we saw under 2.4.5.

I'm not saying if this is good or bad, but this is what I see as the main
advantage.

Fordan, god, Dragon's Den LPmud (129.25.7.111 2222)
From: trsnyder@mcs.Drexel.edu (Bob Snyder)
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.lp
Subject: Re: Driver additions
Date: 1 Sep 92 17:40:05 GMT
	<UEKLEINF.92Aug25231833@queen.mcs.Drexel.edu>
	<17h618INNs3o@darkstar.UCSC.EDU>
Organization: GE Aerospace, Advanced Technology Labs, Moorestown, NJ

>>>>> In article <17h618INNs3o@darkstar.UCSC.EDU>,
>>>>> beeman@cats.ucsc.edu (Adam Beeman) writes:

Adam> Wait, I know!  Let's all send one dollar to Lars and buy him out
Adam> of retirement!  Yeah, that's it!  After all, he's the original
Adam> LP, and nobody should produce this "one driver" without him...

Actually, I kinda like this one....  Anyone have his address? *grin*

Fordan, god, Dragon's Den Lpmud (129.25.7.111 2222)
From: djohnson@cs.ucsd.edu (Darin Johnson)
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.lp
Subject: Re: Driver additions
Date: 27 Aug 92 19:31:07 GMT
Organization: =CSE Dept., U.C. San Diego

>	Doesn't anyone want to at least TRY?

I'd try.  Get much more done with all the forces pointing in the same
direction.  Be nice to get Lars consent to start upping the numbering.
Maybe CD computer clubs consent, but they seem to have their own
plans.
-- 
Darin Johnson
djohnson@ucsd.edu
  - Grad school - just say no.
From: middleto5442@iscsvax.uni.edu
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.lp
Subject: <None>
Date: 31 Aug 92 13:26:38 -0500
Organization: University of Northern Iowa



        I had heard that Valhalla might be up on the orlith-net soon.  If true,
come somebody PLEEZE give me a note???


Jericho


Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.lp
From: oakley@contra.enet.dec.com (The Zeeker)
Subject: Re: Driver additions
Organisation: Treadstone Seventy-One
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation, Maynard, MA.
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 23:00:55 GMT


In article <1992Aug28.013856.12452@msuinfo.cl.msu.edu>, chena@crs.cl.msu.edu (Antony Chen) writes...
>Ugh...yeah, let's do that.  Sounds like a good idea.  Set up a committee
>that will denounce changes that someone makes to a game driver or mudlib.
>Hmm..this sounds kinda like...can't put my finger on it..communism?
> 
>Yeah..set up a board of people who will just quibble about what to do
>and what not to do while people sit idly by waiting for them to make
>a decision.  Or even worse, as you said in an earlier post about how
>chaotic it is, what do you think will happen if you set up a committee?
>People will go on and make changes as they see fit.  No one in the mud
>world is gonna answer to a bunch of people who sit on this virrtual
>committee.  BTW, do you think if I got on the committee, I could put it
>on my next job app?  HAHAHAHAHA!!
> 

	Look, I'm just talking about standard LPmud releases, I'm
	not talking about denouncing changes people make to their
	own muds!  

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Brought to you by Treadstone Seventy-One Corporation.
--- --- --- | /  "Come not between the dragon and his wroth!"
 /  |-  |-  |    		- Lear, King of England
--- --- --- | \
_________________________________________________________________
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.lp
From: srutledg@nyx.cs.du.edu (Seth Rutledge)
Subject: dudes
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix (sponsored by U. of Denver Math/CS dept.)
Disclaimer1: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University of
Disclaimer2: Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
Disclaimer3: control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 92 12:45:54 GMT


You ought to try Paradox MUD.  It's still new, but we are trying
to set up a system for fair advancement and thinking quests.
The number is 128.109.143.15 10478
---
Fubar, Master of Chaos, Lord of all that Screws up.
rem lantern
rem lantern
s
From: uekleinf@mcs.Drexel.edu (Erik Kleinfelder)
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.lp
Subject: Re: LPmud 3.0 User Ids/Security
Date: 26 Aug 92 04:04:15 GMT
Organization: Drexel University

demon@sequent.com (Dave Richards) said:

Dave> written up on this?  My questions are sort of: (1) What kinds of checks can
Dave> and cannot be done with userids, (2) do they allow me to check for wizard-
Dave> written players, (3) what is the granularity of checking, and (4) do you
Dave> have an example of what objects would need to do to conform?  I guess
Dave> my main concerns are how would leo.c change, the level-checking/setting
Dave> parts of player.c, etc.  I'd appreciate any help you can give me.

     All of the security is based off of the master.c file.  Simply because
of seteuid().  You will also have to protect shadowing in a few ways(can't
shadow query_level() among others).  As far as levels, we have changed to no
longer have "advance" in any way.  The level is updated online so that there
is no need to have a "set_level()" function, just a "compute_level()". With
wizard levels it is different, it will need the same basic protections as
was done on most muds for the "promote" command.  As far as leo, we have gotten
rid of him and use a quest master which randomly appears throughout the mud.
He handles quests and castle rewarding as well as the initial changeover
between level 19 and 20.  Dragon's Den mudlib will be released soon and many
examples can be pulled from that.  Quite a few people have put 9 months worth
of programming time in making sure there are no bugs as was once a problem
in 2.4.5.  Mail tlpmud@mcs.drexel.edu for more information or visit us.

Dave> 	Dave Richards (a.k.a Cynosure)

Erik (Gunther God@Dragon's Den -- 129.25.7.111 2222)
Xref: sparky rec.games.mud.lp:3107 rec.games.mud:8582
From: t2h@vax5.cit.cornell.edu
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.lp,rec.games.mud
Subject: After Hours lpmud is really up.
Date: 30 Aug 92 13:53:21 EDT
Distribution: rec
Organization: Cornell University

After Hours lpmud is up, its the nameserver that is down...to reach After
Hours, you will have to use the numerical address to connect.  The number,
in case you've forgotten, is:

                              130.43.9.3          2002
                             (goonsquad.spies.com 2002)

You'll have to use the ip# until things get fixed.  We apologize for the
inconvenience. 

Love and kisses,
                Macron the Malevolent
-- 
"I am not a number, I am a free man!" - Number 6
From: djohnson@cs.ucsd.edu (Darin Johnson)
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.lp
Subject: Re: **** TOP 10 LPMUDs ****
Date: 1 Sep 92 22:05:14 GMT
Organization: =CSE Dept., U.C. San Diego

>You can't expect anybody else to fix bugs if you only tell lars about them.
>The latter being, FYI, pretty pointless, he didn't even answer questions
>about basic design issues lately.

That's the whole point.  It used to be the case that all bug reports
went one place (well, from those who cared about 3.0).  Now however,
they go nowhere.  "You can't expect anybody else to fix bugs..." is
silly - I see no official place to send bugs to - and I have never seen
bug fixes show up on the net, so I must conclude bug fixes are either
not being propagated or are only being sent to friends.

And if there are some of you people out there who have time to go and
develop the driver, fix things, add new features, etc, great.  But don't
expect the rest of the world to be able to do this.  Just because *you*
have no use for an up to date driver, don't assume no one else does.

(and now it's time for someone who's been wiz on tmi for only 5 hours to
go and say how wonderful mudos is and only an idiot wouldn't use it)
-- 
Darin Johnson
djohnson@ucsd.edu
    Where am I?  In the village...  What do you want?  Information...