HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ggr@koonda.acci.com.au (Greg Rose)
Subject: Re: implication of GST for savings
Organization: Australian Computing and Communications Institute
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 08:15:54 GMT

Regarding "inflationary" effects of GST.

>kerry@citr.uq.oz.au (Kerry Raymond) writes:
>>The Liberals themselves admit that there will be a one-off inflationary
>>effect from the introduction of GST.

In article <1992Oct8.051648.18447@cs.uow.edu.au> ph@cs.uow.edu.au (Phillip Herring) writes:
>A study by Alan Tait from the IMF in 1981 [*] indicated that
>the introduction of a GST had no effect on inflation in 21 of the
>31 countries that he studied. In other words, inflation neither rose nor
>fell. Of the other countries, six showed a one-time price shift, and three
>(Peru, Italy and Israel) appear due to other mechanisms; only Norway
>showed an increase in inflation that seems to be due to the GST.
>
>([*] "Is the Introduction of a Value-Added Tax Inflationary?", Finance and
>Development (June 1981) pp. 38-42.)

This discussion was originally started by someone saying that GST
would erode people's savings by increasing inflation. I think the
original poster misused the word inflation in this context, and we are
now talking about the wrong thing.

Suppose, on Jan 1 1993, a GST of 10% on basically everything is
introduced. Well, on Dec 31 1992, a load of groceries at the
supermarket might cost me $100. Twenty-four hours later, I will use up
$110 to buy the same load of groceries. Therefore, money I had in the
bank will now buy me 10% less than it used to. However, there has been
no inflation :-), as the cost of the goods has not gone up. On the
other hand, any money I have put into the bank (after paying a high
rate of income tax), now has less buying power for me, and that sure
does feel the same as inflation...

This is one more way that governments can increase their revenue in a
one-time way. A bit like selling profitable GBEs. In this case the
non-existent money comes from double taxing whatever savings people
had at the time. And then plausibly denying that there was any inflation.

I don't have to worry. I don't have any money in the bank.

--
Greg Rose                 Australian Computing and Communications Institute
ggr@acci.com.au                                              +61 3 282 2532
"If you ever do that again, I'll cut you out of my will!"
		    -- Captain Ross to Co-pilot Gann, "Fate is the Hunter"
Newsgroups: aus.general,aus.politics
From: zrepachol@cc.curtin.edu.au (Paul Repacholi)
Subject: Re: implication of GST
Organization: Curtin University of Technology
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 12:20:32 GMT

In article <1992Oct9.004604.25039@trl.oz.au>, jbm@hal.trl.OZ.AU (Jacques Guy) writes:
...
> are dumb enough. But let's *suppose* that the GST actually 
> replaces sales tax. Your basket of groceries will contain stuff
> where sales tax may vary from 0% for some foods to 30% for
> some "luxury" items (apparently, wiping one's arse with toilet
> paper is luxury. But sales tax is calculated on the wholesale
> price, *before* the retailer has added his margin. So there
> is no way of figuring out how much sales tax there is on
> those groceries, short of asking the retailer what's his
> margin on every single item. The latest I read, GST would
> have to be applied at 15% or so make up for lost revenue
> from sales tax (which would result in no overall price increases,
> but would cause the prices of some items to rise, some others
> to fall, and some to stay the same).

Here is a hidden trap for the younger players...

Let us, for argument say that our $100 is $75 of 0% ST, and $25 of 30% ST items.
A resonable markup is ~100%, so we have at wholesale, $35 plus $11 plus $4 ST.
The larger chains quickly saw that they could put the $4 in their pocket by
reducing the internal price from $11 to $1 ( plus 30c ST ) and increasing
the price of the tax free goods from $35 to $45. When the Tax Office tryed to
stop it, they quickly showed that it was 'standard' pricing for the industry,
because, of course ALL of them where doing the same sort of thing.

Now lets do it the GST way. The 'retail' end get $45 plus $11 of goods. Yes,
I know these are not the figures quoted above, and this is just the point.
They will not reduce the price of the currently tax free items, I'll bet, but
WILL increase the price of the taxed items to show a profit at wholesale.
If we apply the same margin, we will be paying $112 plus 15%, ~$130!!

There is also the question of a scad of 'non-sales taxes'.

Example: A photographer must pay a "proofing tax" on proof sheets or prints
that are not intended for sale. Will this one go away under the GST?

~Paul
From: s303083@parasol.cs.uq.oz.au (ernest rider)
Newsgroups: aus.general
Subject: EFTPOS AGAIN!
Date: 10 Oct 92 21:04:06 GMT
Organization: Computer Science, Queensland Uni, Australia

What most people should worry about are the people who have access to EFTPOS central 
processing!  What powers do these people have and are they reliable!  Just recently
a lot of us have seen that some BIG! corporations have been selling our financial
information for profit.  HOW IS THIS INFORMATION USED!?

Lets give this scenario:


Bank A has customer X, Bank B has customer Y, customer X and customer Y are in competition
BANK A decides to share its EFTPOS capability with BANK B's through an independent
EFTPOS management company. The EFTPOS company sells information to BANK A. BANK A sells
information to customer X, X takes over Y on insider knowledge of Y's financial dealings and
Y no longer exists!

			SCARRY ISN'T IT!!!!!!!

TELL ME IF THIS IS AN UNREASONABLE SCENARIO! MAKE SURE YOU PROVIDE EVIDENCE OF WHY NOT!!

PS: Why doesn't the Westpac computer store bank cheques as "yet to be passed".
    I find it annoying every time I go into my local branch area and even interstate
    they want to know from ME! whether a transaction was a cheque. I tested this 
    out one day. I went into the bank; the teller asked me was the last amount of
    money deposited in my bank account a cheque; I said "YES!" (again) and then she refused 
    to give me money after a long phone call to a head office. Then I walked
    around the corner in full view of the teller and took the money out of the teller
    machine completely on credit! NOT THAT THE $1,500 credit limit over the 3 days to process
    the cheque is enough to go to south america on.


    May be Westpac can't afford an updated computer system at the current moment!
    Would appreciate a comment from a westpac employee, cause if I were them I'd
    be worried about it!

                   ////
                  (o o)
--------------oOO--(_)--OOo---------------------------
Ernest N Rider s303083@cs.uq.oz.au BRISBANE, AUSTRALIA
------------------------------------------------------
Xref: sparky aus.general:1832 aus.aarnet:970
Newsgroups: aus.general,aus.aarnet
Subject: Re: EFTPOS
From: malcolm@nutmeg.cs.ntu.edu.au (Malcolm Caldwell)
Date: 9 Oct 92 11:19:29
Distribution: aus
Organization: Information Technology , Northern Territory University, Darwin,	Australia.
aarnetLines: 55

In-reply-to: ggr@koonda.acci.com.au's message of Thu, 8 Oct 1992 07:59:05 GMT
Subject: Re: EFTPOS
--text follows this line--

   The PIN is not stored directly on the card. Instead it is generated
   from other information on the card (like your account number and name)
   using a keyed hashing technique, and the key for this is kept VERY
   secret (although it is inside all those little boxes...). If you have
   the capability to change the PIN, this is actually done by recording an
   "offset" on the card. This offset is added (modulo 10000 for 4-digit
   PINs) to what you typed in, then compared against the PIN as calculated
   by the keyed hash. In other words, there is enough information on the
   card for a machine "in the know" to verify a PIN, but definitely not
   enough for you to read the card and figure out the PIN (you also need
   to know the ATM network's secret key to achieve this).

   Discussed at length in sci.crypt every few months...

I have not read sci.crypt (so many news groups so much noise),  but I have
read a number of papers published on the matter.

I know that the key to decrypt pin form your account number (+ other info) is
kept in every ATM.  This must mean that Commonwealth + Westpack ATMs have two
bank keys stored in every machine.  The papers I have read tell how important
it is for the bank to keep the keys secure.

All this I understand.  But I do not think that EFTPOS machines keep all the
keys for all the banks/Building Societies etc.  Besides the number of keys
that would have to be stored/installed, EFTPOS machines are not in a secure
environments.  It would be very easy to set up a small business and get a
EFTPOS machine. (And since there is money in it someone would try!)

I think that the PIN is transmitted from the EFTPOS to a bank's computer.
There the PIN is checked against the correct one derived from account number
and key.  This banks computer is not necessarily on line to all the other
banks but it can decode the pin.

Evidence to support this:  Have you noticed that on a EFTPOS machine there
are a number of lights?  They are labeled line Rx Tx & PIN Rx Tx.  It does
seem that your PIN is sent to another place.  I dont know why it gets it's own
two leds.  I guess that it is either sent on another line (unlikely) or the
PIN is sent itself encrypted. (Automatically when sent out a different 'port'?)

Also you might have noticed that EFTPOS machines are not working a lot more
often than ATMs.  Like a ATM it is possible to overdraw from a EFTPOS.  In
this case the machine at the other end of the line might be disconnected from
your bank.

I am sure that all this is on sci.crypt, these are just my random thoughts.

--
Malcolm Caldwell       Email:   malcolm@pandanus.ntu.edu.au
Technical Officer         Ph:   +61 89 466546
Computer Science         Fax:   +61 89 270612
Northern Territory University, Darwin Australia
Newsgroups: aus.general
From: graeme@labtam.labtam.oz.au (Graeme Gill)
Subject: Re: EFTPOS
Organization: Labtam Australia Pty. Ltd., Melbourne, Australia
Distribution: aus
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1992 01:13:18 GMT

In article <1576@eram.esi.COM.AU>, dave@eram.esi.COM.AU (Dave Horsfall) writes:
> In article <6557@otc.otca.oz>,
>     brendan@otc.otca.oz (Brendan Jones) writes:
> 
> | 	- PINs do not start with a '0'
> 
> One of mine does.  Oops - I just compromised security...
> 
> | 	- PINs do not have more than 2 digits the same

One of mine does. There goes that theory!

	Graeme Gill.
From: scott@psy.uwa.oz.au (Scott Fisher)
Newsgroups: aus.general
Subject: Re: Mobile Phones was Re: EFTPOS
Date: 15 Oct 1992 01:40:03 GMT
Organization: The University of Westrn Australia
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: wapsy.psy.uwa.oz.au

cam@syzygy.DIALix.oz.au (Cameron Newham) writes:


>In article <1bdm7hINNegu@uniwa.uwa.edu.au> scott@psy.uwa.oz.au writes:

> > 
> > While everyone is worrying about EFTPOS security what do you all think
> > about the telephone company knowing your location every time you use
> > a mobile phone (well to the resolution of the cell size at least).  
> > 
> > Regards Scott.

>so what.

Oh......fair enough....sorry....."click, Bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz..."
Newsgroups: aus.general
From: david@cs.uow.edu.au (David E A Wilson)
Subject: Re: V22 time service via a local PSTN c
Organization: Dept of Computer Science, Wollongong University, Australia
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 03:22:29 GMT

steve@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au (Steve Balogh (+61 3 565 4747)) writes:
>2. The claimed accuracy is at the exchange, not at your PC. You would have to
>   make an allowance for the time delays involved in getting the signal to you
>   from the exchange. I am not sure how you would do this accurately, so it is
>   left as an exercise for the reader. :)

In the US the equivalent service takes into account the scrambler delays
inherent in the V22/Bell 212 modulation scheme and if you arrange that your
system echos the characters back to the remote modem it will shift the timing
such that (provided the delay in both directions is the same) it is correct
at your end. 
-- 
David Wilson				(042) 21 3802 voice, (042) 21 3262 fax
Dept Comp Sci, Uni of Wollongong	david@cs.uow.edu.au
Newsgroups: aus.general
From: 10666281@eng2.eng.monash.edu.au (KEVIN PRATER)
Subject: Import duty into Australia
Organization: Faculty of Engineering, Monash University 
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1992 01:20:47 GMT


	After looking at the American PC magazine and the low
prices they pay, I was wondering what the import duty was on various 
items is.
Do you pay a fixed rate like so many %
or do it depend on the item you import?

Over in the US, the bubble jet Bj300 printer sells for about $450 US
but here in Australia (the land of Plenty) the same printer sells for
$1100 AU. So my point is, I can import the printer, pay 20% duty on it
and $150 AU for shipping and still save about $300 AU

So is the import duty around this 20% ?
Is there any fundimental flaw in my reasoning?
Thanks
Kevin Prater
Newsgroups: aus.general
From: c.oneill@trl.oz.au (Chris O'Neill)
Subject: Re: implication of GST
Organization: Telecom Australia Research Laboratories, Melbourne, Australia
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1992 02:09:37 GMT

In article <9228418.26288@mulga.cs.mu.OZ.AU> fgh@hannibal.ee.mu.OZ.AU (Frank
Hayward) writes:

>The GST will make tax simpler and fairer.

By what definition of fairness.
Newsgroups: aus.general
From: gnb@duke.bby.com.au (Gregory N. Bond)
Subject: Re: EFTPOS
Followup-To: aus.general
Organization: Burdett, Buckeridge & Young, Melbourne, Australia
Distribution: aus
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1992 23:55:29 GMT


>>   Well I have been told by the engineers who design the ATM mechines and the
>>   PIN generation mechines that if you guess or generate the PIN using 
>>   known data (ie Account Num, Name), U will have a proberbility of
>>   around 1/2^256 (ie one in 2 to the power of 256) of getting it right.

Complete bullshit! 

How long is your PIN?  2^256 implies a 77 digit PIN.

At the very very worst/best, with a 4 digit PIN you have a 1 in 10,000
chance of guessing right, even with no knowledge of how PINs are
generated.

Apply a little thought!  Don't they teach you to check the
reasonableness of your answers?

Greg.
--
Gregory Bond <gnb@bby.com.au> Burdett, Buckeridge & Young Ltd, Melbourne 
That's *Mister* Chief Pointyhead to you.
Xref: sparky aus.general:1840 aus.jobs:356
From: lister@cs.uq.oz.au (Andrew Lister)
Newsgroups: aus.general,aus.jobs,bne.general,uqcs.general
Subject: PhD opportunities at Uni of Qld
Keywords: supervision, finance, facilities, sunshine
Date: 9 Oct 92 06:52:47 GMT
Reply-To: lister@cs.uq.oz.au
Followup-To: aus.general
Distribution: aus


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For further information please contact:

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The University of Queensland,  4072
Ph (07) 365-2809
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Email admin@cs.uq.oz.au
From: beam@peg.pegasus.oz.au
Newsgroups: aus.general
Subject: Re: V22 time service via a local PSTN c
Date: 7 Oct 92 17:39:00 GMT
Nf-ID: #R:1992Sep30.020732.28011@monu6.cc.:1333106053:peg:993300067:000:145
Nf-From: peg.UUCP!beam    Oct  7 12:39:00 1992


|Accuracy of the seconds epoch at the exchange is one millisecond.

hmmm...
how long does it takes to transmit >20 chars at 1200 baud again....?
From: jat@goanna.cs.rmit.oz.au (JAMES THOM)
Newsgroups: aus.general
Subject: Re: New Victorian Premier/result using PR
Date: 8 Oct 92 14:19:59 GMT
Distribution: aus
Organization: Comp Sci, RMIT, Melbourne, Australia

In article <9228113.26049@mulga.cs.mu.OZ.AU> lee@munta.cs.mu.OZ.AU (Lee Naish) writes:
> Note than in Victoria the is nothing in the constitution
>about the electoral system.  Kennett may get legislation passed which
>makes elections optional or even illegal.  I think the parliament can
>even appoint Kennett (or me!) as a dictator and dissolve itself.

But that would presumably violate an implied right to democracy in the
Australian Constitution and would be overruled by the High Court (if
not on the streets of Melbourne).

	Jamie
From: rcgaym@minyos.xx.rmit.oz.au (Angus Y. Montgomery)
Newsgroups: aus.general
Subject: Re: New Victorian Premier/result using PR
Date: 11 Oct 92 09:37:31 GMT
Organization: RMIT Computer Centre
Distribution: aus
NNTP-Posting-Host: minyos.xx.rmit.oz.au

isaac@etrog.se.citri.edu.au (Isaac Balbin) writes:
[ ... ]

>There is no perfect system.

hear, hear.

>No system is `better.'

what tripe.
you refuse to judge the system?
how utterly immoral.  i can't believe that you believe what you say.
to cease to work towards a perfect system, no matter how futile
the quest, or how illusory the goal towards which you strive, is to
cease to be of value as a political being.  it is to implicitly accept
everything perpetrated by the system of which you are part.

>Let's get back to work.

let's improve the world we live in.
that's work enough for anyone.

angus.
Newsgroups: aus.general,aus.politics
From: cam@syzygy.DIALix.oz.au (Cameron Newham)
Newsgroups: aus.general
Subject: Mobile Phones was Re: EFTPOS
Distribution: world
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 92 11:09:48 GMT
Organization: Baldrick Fan Club
Reply-To: cam@syzygy.DIALix.oz.au


In article <1bdm7hINNegu@uniwa.uwa.edu.au> scott@psy.uwa.oz.au writes:

 > 
 > While everyone is worrying about EFTPOS security what do you all think
 > about the telephone company knowing your location every time you use
 > a mobile phone (well to the resolution of the cell size at least).  
 > 
 > Regards Scott.

so what.

Newsgroups: aus.general,aus.aarnet
From: ins272u@aurora.cc.monash.edu.au (Geoff Green)
Subject: Re: EFTPOS
Organization: Monash University
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Distribution: aus
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 00:24:24 GMT

Stuart Andrews (stuarta@syd.dms.CSIRO.AU) wrote:
: > I'll bet the PIN security is hardwired into the card reader...
: 
: No, I don't really know either, but I reckon that if the PIN was hardwired in the reader - ie: no PIN info is transmitted over the lines, then the PIN must be on that little
No it use to be stored on the mag strip but is no longer on there for security
reasons.
: magnetic stripe on the card. Methinks there are a whole new ballpark of security hassles with PIN on the card if the card is stolen, scrambling aside.
: 
: My guess is that the PIN mus be compared with one on the host computer therefore must
: be transmitted...
: 
: Hey, does anybody work in this game and so know what really goes on???
I have friends that do but due to the fact that they do, they cant go into
detail about it.

Geoff.
--
Geoff Green.
Snail Mail :-			E-Mail :-
~~~~~~~~~~		        ~~~~~~
4/8 Dennis st,			ins272u@aurora.cc.monash.edu.au
Clayton Victoria,		ins272u@lindblat.cc.monash.edu.au
Australia.  3861.		greenie@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au
(03) 562 9849.
#include <std_disclamer.h>
#include <witty_quote.h>
Newsgroups: aus.general
From: sboran@autelca.ascom.ch (Sean Boran)
Subject: Paragliding in Australia
Organization: Ascom Autelca AG, CH-3053 Guemligen, Switzerland
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 14:51:06 GMT


Hello there!

I'm addicted to paragliding and want to fly now and then during
my visit in november. Where can i fly in  november ??
Where could i borrow/rent a chute??

Any info on schools, clubs etc. would be appreciated.

BTW the subject here is PARAGLIDING not PARCHUTING or SKYDIVING!

Please reply by email, I'll post a summary to the net.

Thanks a million,

Sean Boran

sboran@autelca.ascom.ch
--
Sean Boran              VOICE: (+41) (31) 9996643            |
ascom Autelca                                                |
Bern, Switzerland       EMAIL: sboran@autelca.ascom.ch       |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Newsgroups: aus.general,aus.aarnet
From: bevans@jabaru.cec.edu.au (Brian Evans)
Subject: Re: EFTPOS
Organization: Jabaru Timesharing, Melbourne Australia
Distribution: aus
Date: Fri, 09 Oct 92 03:56:40 GMT

stuarta@syd.dms.CSIRO.AU (Stuart Andrews) writes:

>> The pin _must_ be on the card.

>Yep, I get the feeling it might. I recount a personal experience: I used a ATM once at the then NRMB in George St Parramatta and I _KNOW_ I entered the wrong
>PIN. It still gave me the money I asked for. I also know from advice (company I worked for @ the time banked @ NMRB George ST, Parra) that that particular machine went oof-line a lot (ie; lost it's line to whatever host it talks to) Why?

There are two possible ways an ATM can go offline. Only one way will actually
close the ATM down.

1)	The atm has LOST the line to the comms controller at the bank.
	This will cause the ATM to close down with (what is loosely termed
	a "WRITE ERROR")

2)	The banks card/account database goes "offline" where the ATM no longer
	has access to account balances. In this case the ATM will probably
	not close and the max amount of cash you can get (this varies)
	is $400.00.  The transaction is recorded on journal roll in the ATM
	and also at the comms controller in the Bank. When the Database
	comes back up, the transactions are batched. Network Control
	has the option to close the ATM from terminals attached to the
	comms controllers.

Normally, the comms controllers also run a line printer with duplicate 
printer paper, so that network errors, BILL COUNT errors and comms problems,
including offline transactions can be printed.


Brian
Xref: sparky aus.general:1811 aus.aarnet:958
From: hughg@brutus.ee.su.oz.au (Hugh Garsden)
Newsgroups: aus.general,aus.aarnet
Subject: Re: EFTPOS
Date: 8 Oct 92 06:42:57 GMT
Distribution: aus
Organization: University of Sydney, EE Dept.

In article <BvsGCJ.Fu1@syd.dms.CSIRO.AU>, stuarta@syd.dms.CSIRO.AU 
(Stuart Andrews) writes:
|> > I'll bet the PIN security is hardwired into the card reader...
|> 
|> No, I don't really know either, but I reckon that if the PIN was hardwired
|> in the reader - ie: no PIN info is transmitted over the lines, then the PIN
|> must be on that little magnetic stripe on the card.

As far as I know this is the case. I took a card to a bank to change the PIN,
and they used a little gadget that wipes the old PIN "from the card" and
replaces it with a new one. They require identification (passport etc.) before
they allow you to do this.

|> My guess is that the PIN mus be compared with one on the host computer 
|> therefore must be transmitted...

Credit cards have a PIN. It is possible to get money from an overseas ATM but
not to get information like credit balance, presumably (as you'd expect)
because the ATM can't contact your bank here. The PIN must be on the card.

-- 
Hugh Garsden
University of Sydney 
hughg@ee.su.oz.au