From: lb@cs.man.ac.uk (Luben Boyanov)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: Somebody needs a lot of history lessons ...(was Re: The Balkan Dance of Death [Macedonia]
Date: 18 Dec 92 15:09:50 GMT
Organization: Dept Computer Science, University of Manchester, U.K.

In article <1992Dec12.043620.22748@cas.org> vkb57@cas.org writes:
>In article <7017@m1.cs.man.ac.uk> lb@cs.man.ac.uk (Luben Boyanov) writes:

[deleted]

>>You can debate it if you wish, or if you have the knowledge and the
>>sources. Otherwise this is an empty statement.
>>
>It is debatable,  and other, a little more reasonable than you,  people on the
>net have agreed with that.

Once again empty statement.

>  It isn't my job to hunt sources,  if Yavor and you
>want to prove that what Beale said was misleading or wrong in the context he
>said it you qoute readily available sources that show conclusively that Beale
>statement was unreasonable.

It's your problem if you want to hunt sources or not, or still to live in
Tito's history.

>  And if you don't convince me,  the point is going
>to remain debatable.

Some people still think that the earth is flat - it's impossible to
convince them. I have never had any intention to convince anybody.

>  The last thing I intend to do is spend much time
>convincing you that the Slavs in Bulgaria did not get renamed into Bulgars by
>conquering the Bulgars.

The Slavs in 'Macedonia' were also called Bulgarians according to many
Byzantine sources, and the area there was also referred as Bulgaria ...

>>any event from that time, or the other option is that you present false
>>statements, if you know the events from those years.  In case you don't
>>know them, here is what you can start with:
>>
>>"The exchange of Minorities; Bulgaria, Greece and Turkey, Ladas, S. P.,
>>The MacMillan Company, New York, 1932.
>>
>You better watch it with these 1932 references,  people will start confusing
>you with  Mutlu and Co.

Cheap and stupid shot. You can discuss whatever you wish with Mutlu and his
sources. Lacking any facts and documents, and believing in Tito's fabrications
hardly makes one have an idea of what was and what was going on in
Macedonia in the past.

>  BTW,  you forgot to tell us what does this book state
>on the subject we are discussing.

No - I didn't. See bellow.

>>A big book on the subject with no 'Macedonian' minority :-( (although this
>>book has some controvercial parts).
>>Can provide more sources, and sources in other languages if you like. Can
>
>Anything you can provide in Macedonian I would be gratefull for.

So funny that you consider the 1945 created language as the only
reliable language for source - still living under the portrait of Tito. For
your information, there were languages existing before the 'Macedonian'
for hundreds and even thousands of years, and for sources before 1945, it's
impossible to provide 'Macedonian' source for one single reason - there was
no such language.

But even so, you may be curious to look in:

"Information of Austrian representatives in Macedonia", D. Zografski,
Skopje, 1955. In Macedonian.

>>>You are in dire need of history lessons.  That is the last thing on earth the
>>>Serbs would have done
>>
>>No - he is not. You are in such dire need. And this was exactly what the
>>Serbs did (I don't "blame" them - the Austrians made them presue this
>>policy). The earlier you learn the history facts and get rid of the
>>fiction, the better.
>>
>The Austrians, huh.  Well,  I am glad we are keeping this in focus.

Glad or sad you can't change history, you can only learn it.

>  Can you
>comprehend that the world does not revolve around Bulgarian history,

You probably mean the Macedonian-Bulgarian one as there was absolute no
other history for the ex-YU republic than it. OOOOps - Sorry - there was
the history of Alexander the Great, which is definately not a Bulgarian one.

> and that
>for many Serbs it does not make any difference whether Macedonia is
>Macedonian,  Bulgarian,  Albanian,  or Greek.  well,  I better stop here.

I didn't know you are a Serb. So what is all the fuss about. Serbian
netters have also found out several unknown for them facts and they don't
dispute them as they have checked them. Fortunately those guys were open
minded and we had interesting dicussions.

>As for learning history,  it would have been a good thing if you did it before
>you made your mind up.

Empty statements again. I got my confidence and learned most of what I know
nowadays in England, from Western sources, and everybody can do so. As a
matter of fact, when Sasa said one day that there are 'undisputed' evidence
for existing of Macedonians in few books and quoted a list, I went to check
those books in the library and the 'undisputed' evidence turned out to be
not only highly disputed but even a rather 'cheap' propaganda shot. It is
true, however that those books had some ambiguous statements. Then I
decided to clarify those matters, found more and more books, read more and more
(which others haven't done at all, and this is such a shame) and now I have
really made up my mind, because it is proven beyond any doubt that
MACEDONIANS DID NOT EXIST as separate Slav or whatever national/ethnic
group before such distinct national consciousness STARTED developing after
WWI in the region called South Serbia, and that same national consciousness
was shaped and enhanced during Tito's regime after 1944. Absolutely
everybody can check and learn this ONLY IF HE WISHES TO. Macedonians are a
newly borned nation and everybody must honour them. But they must also
honour the history of their neighbours, parts of which they regard as their
'own'.  Spitting towards the wind is very unpleasant (as the saying claims).


>Vasil


Luben

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"Let us not allow splits and splintering to frighten us. It is, indeed, a
pity, but what can we do, since we are Bulgarians and all suffer from one
common disease"
				Gotse Delchev
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