From: d89-gsk@nada.kth.se (Gani Skepi)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Islam Revealed #1
Date: 10 Jan 93 12:15:57 GMT
Organization: Royal Institute of Technology, Stockholm, Sweden

A small question here Ken. What has this to do with soc.culture.jewish?????
They don't like these kind of discussions over there so direct them back to 
*only* t.r.m instead... Or direct it to Soc.Religion.Islam........

In article <1993Jan9.221709.23945@blaze.cs.jhu.edu>, arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee) writes:
|> In article <1993Jan9.130916.13803@kth.se> d89-gsk@nada.kth.se (Gani Skepi) writes:
|> >In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
|> >(5:51)" O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians
|> >for your friends and protectors:
|> [remainder deleted]
|> >So what does this verse mean?
|> >Does it mean that we Muslims are prohibited by God to have
|> >friends among the Jews and the Christians?
|> 
|> It certainly sounds like it.  (Nor does this "better" translation sound any
|> better then the "incorrect" one.)
|> 

:-)...... The translation put up by Frank claimed the verse stated that you 
were filth which the verse definately doesn't. So it was that slimy fabricated
part of the verse I attacked.....

To understand why a verse is as it is correctly you may have to look *when* 
the verse was revealed, i.e. in which context. The Jews and the Christians 
actively fought against the Prophet. The Jews of that day even told the Pagans 
that *they* were closer to their religion than Islam is.. The Qureish&Co were 
*polyteists*..... So in their enemity towards the Prophet (pbuh) they even 
lied concerning their *own* religion....

This was the reason why I said that verse 5:57 may explain it better. 
Appearently it didn't either....
 
|> >Verse (5:57) explains it better:
|> >In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
|> >(5:57)" O ye who believe! Take not for friends and protectors
|> >those who take your religion for a mockery or sport, - whether
|> >among those who recieved the Scripture before you, or among
|> >those who reject Faith; but fear ye Allah, if ye have Faith
|> >(indeed)."
|> 
|> So this says that, in addition to Jews and Christians being prohibited as
|> friends to Muslims, those who mock Islam are also prohibited.  Are you trying
|> to claim that because this verse also bars those who mock Islam, the other
|> prohibitions no longer count?

:-)......
I were saying that this verse explains more in detail what is meant......
The prohibition above had to do with those Christians and Jews who fought
against the Prophet (pbuh) and even tried several of times to assainate him.

Secondly *true* friendship is based on mutual respect and not on mockery. 
If a person mockers your religion when you are present and you have told 
this individual that you don't like it when he does it. But he continues,
then is this a good friend???? You don't have to agree with another persons
religion but don't mocker it if you want that person to continue to be your 
friend. Think about it for a while and you will understand it.......

There is *no* prohibition in Islam which no longer count. If it is in the 
Quran then it will *always* count. Still there are cases when God sharpened 
Laws like in the case with intoxications to make the people moral ready for 
quiting to use it. First they were not allowed to come drunk at prayer and 
then it was totally abolished. But the law concerning not coming drunk at 
prayer is still functional but it has been sharpened. So it didn't cease to 
count......

Things has to be done gradually and the people has to have the moral to cease 
with the practice.

Take the case when alcohol became fofbidden in the USA 1931-32 to 1933-34. 
During this period over 100 000 books were written against alcohol. But still 
1935-36 the Law gets abolished. 

Why????
Well the total law wasn't based in the views of the people and the people didn't 
have the moral to stop it. 

Since Jesus (pbuh) turned water into wine, wine has been floading alot in the 
Christian camp. How can you abolish something wich your s.k. "Lord and Saviour" 
turned water into???

So there are *no* Laws in Islam which do not count anymore. There are some 
cases were the Laws have been sharpened but the old Laws *still* count........

You shouldn't for example walk over a street if you see a car coming in 150 km/h 
and is 20 m away. But then suddenly a traffic light is put up. Then you should 
take a look at the traffic light and walk when it is green (on your side). But 
still you shouldn't walk over the street if a car is coming in 150 km/h 20 m 
away (I agree, a *very* bad example but I hope you understand the point).

|> 
|> >|> "Allah has given those that fight with their goods and their
|> >|> persons a higher rank than those who stay at home....The
|> >|> unbelievers are your sworn enemies....Seek out your enemies
|> >|> relentlessly....You shall not plead for traitors....Allah does
|> >|> not love the treacherous or the sinful."
|> >|>   N.J. Dawood, "The Koran", pg.212-222
|> >I've seen this verse before meaning something like that but what is your 
|> >point??
|> >Should we love our enemies as the Christian Serbs love us Muslims in Bosnia,
|> >Sandjak and in Kosova????
|> 
|> This is equivocation.  If "enemies" means people who act like the Serbs in
|> Bosnia, I would have no problem with you not loving your enemies.  But the
|> passage itself does not define "enemy" that way.  Instead, it defines "enemy"
|> as unbeliever.

Well, this is why I wanted the guy who posted it to give me the exact place
were it is so that I can check it up and see in which context it was revealed. 
If I remember right the word "unbelievers" is referring to the Pagans who 
fought against the Prophet (pbuh)...... With page number on a translation you 
don't come anywhere....... You have to know which chapter or which verse it is
referring to.

If enemy was equal with unbeliever then how come there is more than 15 milllion
Christians in the Arab world today?? Don't you think we wold had got rid of them 
long time ago by this time. Even if we didn't know how to do it we would have 
learnt it from you. You showed us very good how to do it in Spain, didn't you???

|>  I certainly hope that you would not treat me like the Serbs
|> are treating the Bosnian Muslims just because I am an unbeliever.

:-).....
Well, Ken I believe I qouted enough with verses last time so that you should 
feel secure.... :-)..  Still I'll post an article in talk.religion.misc which 
explains the concept of Jihad so that you can sleep good at night........

Peace 
Gani Skepi
d89-gsk@nada.kth.se


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(SAHIH MUSLIMIN)" ... I heard the Messenger of Allah (pbuh) saying: 
He who amongst you should see something abominable should modify it
with the help of his hand; and if he has not strength enough to do 
it, then he should do it with his tongue, and if he has not strength 
enough to do it, (even) then he should (abhort it) from his heart, 
and that is the least of faith."
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