From: orion@nuchat.sccsi.com (Roland Dunkerley)
Subject: Re: Software HOARDING (was Re: a few CERTAIN FTP sites......)
Organization: Eristic Rite In Software, Houston, Tx.
	<ORION.92Jul29183057@nuchat.nuchat.sccsi.com> <4NUH3Y3@taronga.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 21:34:43 GMT

>>>>> On Thu, 30 Jul 1992 11:38:46 GMT, peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) said:

|> In article <ORION.92Jul29183057@nuchat.nuchat.sccsi.com> orion@nuchat.nuchat.sccsi.com (Roland Dunkerley) writes:
>I think that that is in fact true in the historical sense,
>remember though that windowing systems started their life
>cycle as toys for hackers.

	|> But it's the applications that run on them that
	|> make them popular.

I'll grant that.  I maintain that the free applications that
run on X make it that much more popular.  Add to that it's
distribution policies, without wide source availability, X
would have never become the standard it is today.  Mess
Windows is not a counter example of this, since it only has
to run on a single widely available platform.

>I think that GNU has had an effect on the computer
>industry,

	|> Yes, it's had an effect. But it's the end-user
	|> applications that have created that industry *as
	|> an industry*.

What about look and feel and software patents?  Have they
created the industry *as an industry*?  Again, I maintain
that software patent and look+feel copyright have had mostly
a damaging effect on the computer industry.  I also don't
buy that the industry has been entirely created by
propriatary software and aggressive litigation.  I think the
industry would still exist, albeit in a smaller form with
less software and higher hardware prices, without the
benefit of copyright and trade secret protection for
software, much less the other more offensive forms of
statist sponsorship.  The PC revolution would still happen,
because it's the right time for it, there is a need.  People
would still write software, even if it wouldn't make the
most fortunate of them billionaires.  The GNU model of the
future marketplace is a sound one.   Hmmm...  maybe I should
organize an anarchist demonstration of software piracy and
plaigarism for the Republican convention here in a couple of
weeks...  (I normally don't break the law because I don't
want the statists to do nasty things to me like
imprisonment, fines, etc.  It's not Civil Disobedience
unless it's in public.)  On the other hand, I'd rather not
be arrested this month, so I probably won't be handing out
free copies of 1-2-3 in front of the astrodome.  Would be
fun, though.  I personally would rather pay for software and
get something resembling support if I don't have the source
myself.  What some companies pass off as support makes me
want to give out 20 or so copies of their software though.
(My problem with lotus isn't with their support, I have no
experience with it, it's with their litigatious policies.)

>A WYSIWYG desktop publishing system is on the GNU tasks
>list, as is a Dbase clone.

	|> Being on a list is no evidence that it will ever
	|> be done. What happened to the free spreadsheet
	|> program? More importantly... these are all copies
	|> of commercial software. Without software
	|> hoarding, they would have been quite unlikely to
	|> be invented in the first place.

I think Noah answered this point exactly.  I have used the
old release of oleo, and besides it's lack of documentation
and portability problems in the pre-release, it is quite
useful.

>	|> Come on, GNU fans, prove me wrong. Give me something the
>	|> mundanes can appreciate. Microsoft Delenda Est.

>I think this will happen, just that it will unfortunately
>take more time.

	|> And by that time what will the new "killer apps"
	|> be? The FSF is ahead of the curve on hackerware,
	|> but it's playing catch-up (and only with a
	|> nominal effort) on mundaneware. And mundaneware
	|> is what creates the larger demand for computers
	|> that's driving the development of better
	|> computers for us all.

I think that's more a problem of limited resuorces than
anything else.  Actually I am somewhat grateful for the
commercial software industry at present, just think it could
do without some of the more offensive elements (like a whole
herd of attorneys who should most likely be the first up
against the wall when the revolution comes.)  I buy software
from the less offensive companies in the industry, and I
don't use software from the more offensive ones.  I don't
pirate software myself, and would be hard pressed to come up
with a copy of 1-2-3 to hand out to the republicans. :)  I,
however agree with the theme of both Batman movies, so amply
stated by Robert Anton Wilson to be "in a crazy mixed up
world like this, who's to say what's right and wrong
anymore."  Everyone has to live by their own morals, and
just because something is illegal doesn't mean it's
necessarily morally wrong.

	|> I'm not saying that the FSF shouldn't exist. I'm
	|> saying that it's not the only form of software
	|> that should. If Stallman was to destroy the
	|> commercial software industry by an act of god he
	|> would soon find himself much worse off. Someone
	|> has to keep cranking the wheel. (insert optional
	|> flame about "service economies" here)

I don't think if Stallman could choose his 'act of god' that
it would be the destruction of the software industry as it
sits.  I agree that it would be a bad thing for commercial
software to be suddenly outlawed.  I think the software
industry changing from a packaging industry of
shrink-wrapped boxes that may or may not meet any particular
need to an industry based more on service and support is a
good thing, and I think (I obviously speak for noone but
myself) that that is much closer to RMS's goals than the
wholesale destruction of the industry.  Surely you've made
more than one support call only to be told that your
reported bug will be fixed in the next release, which may be
available six months from now, and will cost $300.  Even
"good" software companies have been guilty of that.

--
"I still dream of Orgonon..."     ---    KaTe Bush, Cloudbusting
Fnord.                        Roland Pleasant Dunkerley III, KSC
Eristic Rite In Software         Hail Eris!  All Hail Discordia!
orion@nuchat.sccsi.com               {uhnix1,uunet}!nuchat!orion
-- 
"I still dream of Orgonon..."     ---    KaTe Bush, Cloudbusting
Fnord.                        Roland Pleasant Dunkerley III, KSC
Eristic Rite In Software         Hail Eris!  All Hail Discordia!
orion@nuchat.sccsi.com               {uhnix1,uunet}!nuchat!orion
Newsgroups: alt.hackers.malicious,alt.hackers