From: kevin@nuchat.sccsi.com (Kevin Brown)
Subject: Re: Believe in youself, dammit! (was: Re: Singles Bar)
Organization: I can't see any in the immediate vicinity...
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1992 08:35:38 GMT

It's been a while since I've posted anything, so I suppose I should update
people on what's going on (don't run away just yet, okay?  :-).

For those of you who don't recall, my "plan" with respect to finding a
relationship (or, more precisely, *creating* a relationship) was to take
a few classes on the subject, join a social club or two, and participate
in activities involving lots of other single people (women in particular,
of course :-).  Well, this is now well underway.

I've already taken a couple of the classes.  They were taught by someone
that some of you may have heard of: Sharyn Wolf.  The topics were "Guerilla
Dating Tactics" and "How to talk your way into romance" (or some such
thing).

The class attendees were, surprisingly enough, pretty evenly distributed.
Maybe a 55%/45% mix, with the 55% being male.  Sharyn indicated to me that
this is unusual, that she normally gets a much higher male attendance
(makes sense when you think about it: the male generally has to make the
first move, so these classes will generally be much more useful to the
male than to the female).

A number of things came out of these classes.  The first is that you
*never* get entirely comfortable with initiating a conversation with
someone you don't know.  There is a good reason for this: when you do
so, you are putting yourself on the line to some extent (however small).
The second is that the idea that relationships happen when you least
expect it is a *myth*.  Relationships happen because people work to make
them happen.  It requires cooperation, of course (it *is* a cooperative
venture), but it *also* requires action.  While you might not expect
such spectacular results from your efforts, you *did* put in the effort,
and that's what makes a relationship come about.  Most people, when
confronted with a problem on the job or in some other aspect of life,
will take an active role in correcting the problem.  If you want a raise,
you don't just stand around waiting for it to happen.  You work to *make*
it happen.  Most people treat relationships very differently.  They
leave it to chance.  Sharyn seems to think that this is one of the
primary reasons people have so much trouble with relationships.  She may
be onto something.

She discussed various conversational techniques, such as "active listening",
wherein the listener will nod their head or otherwise indicate that they
are attentive to what is being said.  This can go further: you can restate
what the other person has said, in such a way that they can elaborate on
it.  This takes some skill, though.  There are a lot more ways to blow it
than to do it right (simply restating what they said, word for word, is
generally not a good idea  :-).

Another technique, which is particularly useful at parties, is to simply
sit back and observe the goings on for about 10 minutes after you arrive
on the scene.  This will allow you to get comfortable with the surroundings,
and will enable you to determine what your best potential courses of action
are.


Anyway, I've registered for a few more such classes, and the "newcomer"
gathering for the social club is happening this coming Friday.  The ball
has started to roll.

I went to the walk-in registration in order to sign up for the latest
batch of classes and activities (the activities include a camping trip
and a trip to the various jazz places in town.  Should be interesting!).
I had a good reason to do so: it would give me an opportunity to talk
with others.  This is exactly what I did.  I got there a little early,
and started a conversation with one of the women who also showed up
there early.  After we had both registered, we continued the conversation
for some time.  I didn't get a phone number or anything, and neither did
she, but the conversation was quite interesting (I got the impression
from her that she enjoyed it as well, and *also* got the impression that
she didn't want to leave when she did.  But I'm not yet sure that I can
trust such impressions).  The main point is this: being aggressive in
talking with others works.

Next time I'm giving them my phone number if I find them interesting
enough.  Then they can call me, or not.  Their choice, but at least
then the chance will be there, and *they* will have the comfort of
having control (this is very important).

So here's the plan: I'll go to as many of the social functions as I can,
and will talk with as many people who are of interest to me as I can.
This will expose me to a maximum number of people and, more importantly,
will allow me to gain experience in conversing with others.  Though I
may never become entirely comfortable with starting a conversation, I
can at least become comfortable with *holding* a conversation.  I can
overcome any apprehension on my part with sheer determination.

This business of being without a relationship *will* end.  It's just a
matter of time.  I can fake the confidence, so that won't get in my
way.  I will learn how to converse with others.  I'll maximize my
exposure.  I'll be as aggressive as I possibly can with respect to
starting conversations with others.

In short, I'm going to do all the right things.  I'll make my mistakes
and brush them off.  I won't put any *real* feelings into this until I
sense something like that from the person I'm dealing with.  But I'll
learn how to fake it (if necessary), so I can entice her into developing
such feelings, so I can bootstrap the whole process without risking my
shirt, if I have to do things that way.  It's a dynamic process, though,
so I'll adapt to the situation.

I should have done this a long time ago, but I had neither the guts, the
composure, nor the stability (both emotionally and financially) to pull
it off.  Now I do.


In article <JMD.92Sep11173357@lion.bear.com> jmd@bear.com (Josh Diamond) writes:
>
>My original post saying that I thought that singles bars should be
>avoided as places to meet a potential SO, and that group activities
>might be more effective, seems to have generated some response and
>qustions: 

You might be right about the singles bar thing.  However, having thought
about this problem from the new perspective I now have, it occurs to me
that perhaps the *best* way to approach this is by giving yourself as
many options as possible.  Don't rule out singles bars.  They *might*
work.  But don't concentrate on them either.  Rather, visit them
occasionally.  Not only will this help to maximize your exposure to new
people, but it will also maintain the variety in your environment, so
things won't get dull quite so fast.  :-)

>dy@depsych.Gwinnett.COM (Dr. Yes) writes:
>
>> Could you go into a little more detail about the mechanics of what
>> you did?  I've never been able to make organizations work for me.
>
>First, why should previous results stop you now?  They're _history_:
>done and gone.  Who cares?  Also, your wording implies that you expect
>the organization to "work for me".  You have to put some effort into
>it yourself!!!

Exactly.  However: history *might* be an indicator of sorts.  Use it
to find your strengths and weaknesses, and work on fixing the weaknesses
while exploiting your strengths, if possible.  But don't use your past
history to determine your next course of action, unless there is a huge
correlation that you see in the behavior of others.  Why?  Because people
are highly variable.  While you can make some vague generalizations here
and there (e.g., women like confidence), you can't get very specific.

>As for detail, there is none.  I didn't go and do some specific thing
>to create a relationship.  If you think that there is some formula, or
>set of magic operations which will give you a relationship, then you
>are crazy.  

This is due to the huge variety of personalities out there.

>Basically the idea is to go out there in the world and love people
>unconditionally -- to be a contribution to those around you.  If you
>keep giving like this, eventually someone is gonna get that you care
>about them.  That kind of mutual giving is what forms any kind of
>relationship -- be in platonic, or romantic.

*This* is probably a bad idea.  Not because loving people is a bad idea.
But rather, giving without getting something bad, if done for too long,
is a bad idea.  Humans in general have a need for balance in such things.
If that balance isn't there, dissatisfaction sets in.  I know this because
I've done this.

(generalization warning)
Besides, women don't want a "nice guy".  They want someone who will stand
up for themselves and who will confidently take charge of their own lives,
rather than giving up significant portions of their lives for others.  My
impression, also, is that women don't really want someone who is an expert
in any one thing.  Rather, my impression is that they're much more impressed
with someone who is competent in a wide variety of fields.

Do things *for yourself*.  Make other people *incidental* to the process,
rather than *central*.  If they can't handle being second to you, then
that's too damned bad for them...

Example of a mistake I made that I *will not* make again:  the lady I
had that conversation with during registration smokes (much to my
annoyance).  When we went to sit down, she asked if it would bother
me.  I lied and said no, thinking that I would be able to tolerate it.
Well, I tolerated it, but it wasn't pleasant.

My point?  I put my comfort second to her comfort (I did want to talk
with her, after all, so I *did* have a selfish motive for the decision)
and discovered that it probably wasn't worth it.  *Next* time, if I'm
asked that question, I'll tell them that I *do* mind (or I'll at the
very least insist on sitting upwind of them :-).  Next time I'm going
to put my needs and desires *first*.

>> I never see the same person in two different organizations so it
>> never rolls over into any kind of a network.
>
>So what?  You don't have relationships with networks!  You have
>relationships with individual human beings.  Also, you are not
>interested in a relationship with an organization.  The organization
>is merely a context in which it may be easier to create a relationship
>with an individual.

Were it that simple.  An organization has a social structure in which
there are rules of conduct and dynamic patterns of interaction.  While
an individual has a relationship with another individual, this doesn't
occur in a vacuum.

However, it's probably way too difficult to account for all that, so my
guess is that you'll do best if you deal with people as individuals
while trying to account for their primary interactions with the others
(secondary interactions are much more difficult to account for because
you don't see them in any real detail).

>> I've tried several computer users societies.  All guys.

This is true of a lot of other things as well.  While others may say
that it really doesn't matter what environment you put yourself in,
don't kid yourself.  The environment you're in *does* have an effect.
Pick a good, diverse environment *and* try to maximize your own
attractiveness level.

>> I've tried several churches.  Nobody talks to you except old men...

This seems to depend.  I'm not religious, so such an option is completely
out for me.  Unfortunately, I suspect that the atheist groups are mostly
male.  :-)

>> I've tried Mensa.  Nice people but they all have lives of their own...

Probably too formal, as well, inasmuch as the theme is effectively
intellectual excellence.

>> I've tried political campaigns...

You mean political organizations?

You *might* be able to get somewhere in such a group, i.e. one in which
there is a focus on some sort of activity or theme.  Unfortunately, in
such a group, socializing becomes a secondary activity, so it's not like
it's something that's encouraged.

>> I've tried professional organizations.  People are afraid to get
>>    involved...

Professional organizations?  Like what?  Please be more specific.

>> What organizations have you joined and how did you move inside
>> them to make them work for you?
>
>Why not get involved in something thats just fun?  Or something that
>you believe in which is important to you?  Something not related to
>work or study in any way.  A few days ago in response to the
>"Desperation" thread I wrote:
>
>> Some examples:
>> 
>>     Amature theatre/music groups.
>>     Wine tasting classes (a friend of mine had great success here).
>>     Intramural sports, sports clubs (fencing was great for me).
>>     Any type of classes outside your degree program.
>>     Local hiking club chapters (e.g. Sierra Club, Apalachian Trail Club). 

All these are good suggestions.  But I think the ideal thing is...

(drum roll)

social clubs!  That is, clubs whose PRIMARY PURPOSE is social interaction
between its members.  Clubs which go out and do a large variety of things,
e.g. hot-air ballooning, hiking trips, water skiing, beachcombing, partying,
etc.

I can't say yet how well this will work, because I haven't joined the one
around here yet.  That's coming soon, and I'll keep you informed of how it
goes.

Of course, you're even *better* off getting involved in *several* such
things (all being different, of course).  For instance, I want to get
into a sailing club, if it's not too expensive.  If I can find one that
owns its own sailboat, I'll probably be in good shape (club ownership of
such things tends to minimize individual expense).

>Your belief that you will not succeed is, in fact, that which is
>causing you to fail.  You must learn to ignore the limiting beliefs
>which tell you that you will not succeed.  You must start taking risks
>-- start chancing rejection.  

Absolutely.  Fake the confidence if you have to.

>With practice, you will no longer be uncomfortable taking that chance.  

Wrong.  It's *always* unconfortable, if only a little.  There is *always*
discomfort when there's the possibility that someone else will reject
you.

>And yes, you will succeed in your quest for the relationships you desire.

This, of course, remains to be seen, but I think the most important piece
of advice is this:  enjoy the things you do with other people.  If you do
that, then you'll have gained *something*, even if it's not a relationship.

This is, undoubtedly, going to be the hardest piece of advice for a male
in their late teens to early twenties to take.  The hormonal drive in a
young male is so strong that it can overpower most anything else.  Rather
nasty consequences (e.g., depression and the like) can result from these
hormonal urges not being fulfilled.

Unfortunately, I don't know what to do about that.  The youngest guys
probably have it the worst, because women seem to prefer guys who are
at least *somewhat* experienced.  That's why you so often see college-
aged women dating guys several years older than them.

>One must take responsibility for the way one experiences life.
>Only then will can one say:
>
>	I am the master of my fate, the captain of my soul.

Yup.  Seems that way.

Remember: if it's important to you, ask yourself how aggressively you'd
deal with it if it were part of the job rather than your personal life.
Then proceed with things with *at least* that level of aggressiveness.

There's another reason to proceed with this in an aggressive fashion:
women like guys who are aggressive.  :-)

> /\ \  / /\  Josh Diamond                              		   jmd@bear.com


-- 
				Kevin Brown

			    kevin@nuchat.sccsi.com
			    kevin@taronga.taronga.com
Newsgroups: soc.singles