HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: hooker@aristotle.ils.nwu.edu (Bob Hooker)
Subject: Re: Libertarians live in Virtual Reality
Organization: ILS
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 15:16:07 GMT

In article <4408@arccs1.fed.FRB.GOV>, m1tca00@fed.frb.gov (Thomas C.
Allard) writes:
> 
> 
> -- 
> In article <1992Aug10.223605.28360@usenet.ins.cwru.edu>, bj368@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mike E. Romano) writes:
> > 
> > There has never been any society in history which has even come close
> > to a "libertarian" system.
> > Libertarians fantasize that as soon as one becomes a business owner,
> > one is by definition holy, saintlike, etc.
> > The Business Owner will never take advantage of his employees.
> > The Business Owner would never ever think of polluting the environment.
> > The Business Owner is never greedy and would never participate in
> > consumer fraud, embezzlement, insider trading, or any of those nasties.
> > Therefore government is not necessary.
> > -- 
> >             Mike Romano     Univ. Calif. Berkeley
> 
> But if a "Business Owner" can do all these nasty things, what makes you
> think your local regulator doesn't do them?
> 

 politicans in a republic, motivated by the desire to maximize power,  can
not afford to conduct themselves in such a way that will hurt their chances
of re-election or will hurt their bosses chances of re-election.

Under these conditions,  political office holders can be expected, like
business people, to practice public deception.

If government was controlled by one group of individual,  as it was in
Communism,  you can expect government not to do anything to help protect
the public.

But if government is multi-party, representative, and open,  you can expect
that power holder will either 1. try to work out a deal with other party
memebers by which they can all share power and not protect the public  (the
good old boy of politics situation),  or 2.  try not to do anything which
directly harms the interest of most people because they know that the other
party, in an open system, will use these facts to win an election.

The sistuation in America is complex because the asssumption of open
government is only partially true (Dan and his secret regualtion board is
probaly the best example of abuse I can think of),  and that outcome varies
between deal making and party competition.

This mechanism of government makes it possible that pollution or fraud or
unstable banking processes may be correct by politicans purely in the hope
of increasing their power.  I have never heard a good arguement that profit
seeking bussiness may end up doing the same thing,  if dumping the posion
in the lake will make you more money and there is no agency to enforce laws
agaisnt dumping it,  you either dump or are undercut by other companies
that can cut cost by dumping.     

If Government didn't exist, it would be necessary to create it.    

Newsgroups: sci.econ
From: cbbrowne@csi.uottawa.ca (Christopher Browne)
Subject: Re: Libertarians live in Virtual Reality
Organization: Dept. of Computer Science, University of Ottawa
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 92 03:15:13 GMT

(I HOPE that I have the attribution correct...)
>yodaiken@chelm.cs.umass.edu (victor yodaiken) writes:
> 
> >>>	Milton Friedman, economically.
> 
>The favorite economist of Gen. Pinochet and like minded great leaders the
>world over.

Of course, if the whole Chilean situation was actually orchestrated by
the CIA (which is, of course, possible, and is in fact probable, but
probably not completely verifyable), what Friedman did has little or
no REAL relevance.

That is, if the whole situation is the responsibility of the CIA, then
Miltie is (axiomatically :-)) NOT responsible.

Thus:

Those that bring up Chile as a good example of how smart Friedman is
are using an irrelevant example.
--AND--
Those that bring up Chile as a good example of how stupid Friedman is
are using an irrelevant example.

We could get into further contortions as to how Friedman may have been
USED by the CIA, or how he may have used their actions, and try to
comprehend how the media is really the message, but it's probably best
to drop Chile at this point...  NOBODY can really get much milage out
of it.

-- 
Christopher Browne
cbbrowne@csi.uottawa.ca
University of Ottawa
Master of System Science Program
From: Bruce.Scott@bbs.oit.unc.edu (Bruce Scott)
Newsgroups: sci.econ
Subject: Re: Libertarians live in Virtual Reality
Date: 12 Aug 92 16:29:13 GMT
Organization: Extended Bulletin Board Service

I would like to say that a completely unregulated society does exist and
has existed for centuries: the Mafia-ridden south of Italy. For the
effects this has on law and order and the environment, just go have a
look. They are open and available to all.

Gruss,
Dr Bruce Scott                             The deadliest bullshit is
Max-Planck-Institut fuer Plasmaphysik       odorless and transparent
bds at spl6n1.aug.ipp-garching.mpg.de                 -- W Gibson

--
   The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the University of
     North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the Campus Office for Information
        Technology, or the Experimental Bulletin Board Service.
           internet:  bbs.oit.unc.edu or 152.2.22.80
From: GCTHORNE@idbsu.idbsu.edu
Subject:      Ontario Deficit?
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 92 11:56:15 MST
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       Well, out of curiosity.  Can anyone confirm that the province
   of Ontario is running an 11 billion deficit? !
From: yodaiken@chelm.cs.umass.edu (victor yodaiken)
Newsgroups: sci.econ
Subject: Re: Libertarians live in Virtual Reality
Date: 18 Aug 92 22:03:04 GMT
Organization: University of Massachusetts, Amherst

In article <1992Aug18.133518.3570@desire.wright.edu> demon@desire.wright.edu (Stupendous Man) writes:
>In article <7994@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM>, mwilson@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM (Mark Wilson) writes:
>>>Who am I supposed to believe is the serious Libertarian?  George
>>>Tucker, who believes that scams by business are as nothing compared to
>>>what government perpetrates?  Or Jimbo Wales, who wants government to
>>>watch business stringently to keep it honest?
>
>	Milton Friedman, economically.
>

The favorite economist of Gen. Pinochet and like minded great leaders the
world over.


-- 


yodaiken@chelm.cs.umass.edu
Newsgroups: sci.econ
Subject: Re: Libertarians live in Virtual Reality
From: demon@desire.wright.edu (Stupendous Man)
Date: 18 Aug 92 13:35:18 EST
 <1992Aug13.192043.2239@cbfsb.cb.att.com> <7994@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM>
Organization: Demonic Possesions, Inc.

In article <7994@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM>, mwilson@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM (Mark Wilson) writes:
>>Who am I supposed to believe is the serious Libertarian?  George
>>Tucker, who believes that scams by business are as nothing compared to
>>what government perpetrates?  Or Jimbo Wales, who wants government to
>>watch business stringently to keep it honest?

	Milton Friedman, economically.

Brett                                                      
_______________________________________________________________________________
Proconsul Computer Consulting                                        CHA-CHING!
Better, Cheaper, Faster					       (Pick any two :)
Disclaimer:								   NOT!
Newsgroups: sci.econ
From: jwales@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (jimmy donal wales)
Subject: Re: Libertarians live in Virtual Reality
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 18:24:36 GMT

For this posting, we will examine a type of fallacy so bold that one
seldom sees it attempted in its full glory.  Most people are too timid
to come right out and commit this one in broad daylight; subterfuge
and camouflage are usually employed.  Kenneth Tolman, though, has
great courage.  He is not afraid to dramatically employ the fallacious
rhetorical technique known as the 'big lie'.

The big lie technique consists of making a claim which is blatantly and
dramatically false, in the hopes that the listener will think that he
or she must have made some mistake.  

In this case, given the postings of the past few days, could anyone
seriously think that libertarians would 'celebrate' fraud?  Could anyone
seriously think that I (for example) would support an ethics which
claimed that anything is o.k. 'if you can get away with it?'

Of course not.  But let's take a look at what Kenneth had to say...

Kenneth Tolman writes:
>I have personally
>witnessed by managers:
>
>overcharging
>forcing employees to do extremely dangerous tasks (pick up vats of boiling
>  oil)
>lying to customers
>unsanitary food reusage
>misrepresentation of product
>
>In all of these cases, the manager was trying to help themselves out (and they
>did)  And always, it is subtle.  A Libertarian point of view celebrates this
>trickery- it certainly does not condemn it at least.  If you can get away with
>it - it is OKAY.  

This is a lie... but not just an ordinary run of the mill lie.  This
is a Big Lie, the kind that they ought to give prizes for.

I leave it as an exercise for the reader to determine what credence
one ought to give to Tolman's increasingly amusing utterances.

--Jimbo












Newsgroups: sci.econ
From: mbb@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (martin.brilliant)
Subject: Corporations (was Re: Libertarians live in Virtual Reality)
Organization: AT&T
Distribution: usa
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1992 17:12:52 GMT

From article <183073@pyramid.pyramid.com>, by pcollac@pyrnova.mis.pyramid.com (Paul Collacchi):
> .....
> I still believe with great conviction that a significant underlying 
> historical motivation for the formation of a "corporation" was to
> shield partipants from the full consequences of their actions, and that
> it got 'snuck' into common law, before anyone could really figure out
> what the long (long,long) term consequences might be.  There
> was a time historically when it may have been appropriate to allow this
> "distortion" of feedback in order to encourage large capitalization (
> actually, another bogus understanding, but one thrown in to appease 
> those who can't even begin to concieve of non-corporate living on 
> planet Earth), but the cost is tremendous, and, in my opinion, the
> 'karma' of this distortion is showing up, hundreds of years later, as
> bizarre forms of expensive litigation and damages, and bizarre forms
> of government regulation.

I always thought that the original purpose of corporations was to
shield investors, not participants, so that participants who could not
qualify for loans could obtain risk capital.  It would also have been
used to allow participants to invest a limited amount of risk capital
in an enterprise, without being personally liable for the losses if
the enterprise failed.

Given that the board of directors of a corporation theoretically
represents the investors (that is, the owners), and the officers
represent the directors, it seems to me that neither the directors nor
the officers are personally shielded from any responsibility for
wrong-doing.  The only shielding that is inherent in the model of a
corporation is shielding from monetary liability in excess of the
amount invested.

Am I wrong about this, or was the corporation initially intended by
at least some of its proponents to shield unscrupulous managers?

							Marty
marty@hoqaa.att.com		hoqaa!marty
Martin B. Brilliant		(Winnertech Corporation)
From: tucker@shiva.edsg.hac.com (George Tucker)
Newsgroups: sci.econ
Subject: Re: Empty Philosphies
Date: 14 Aug 92 18:23:00 GMT
Reply-To: tucker@shiva.UUCP (George Tucker)
Distribution: na
Organization: Hughes Aircraft Co., El Segundo, CA

In article <1992Aug13.150256.2934@gasco.com> fpf@cepheus.gasco.com (Frank Ferguson x3584) writes:
>Let's not talk about what Libertarianism "needs" as an intellectual
>justification, rather let's focus on what it "feels" like as an
>experience.  Whatever rhetoric it may spout about "choice" and
>"individual rights" and "Liberty", Libertarianism is a cold hearted,
>almost cold blooded creed.  It does not argue against compassion, empathy
>and humanity, it simply has no place for such concepts--save as examples
>of individual consumption decisions, of no particular interest in themselves.

Can't we move this theoretical stuff about pure Libertarianism somewhere
else?  Now we have to hear about touchy-feely economics!   Hey, I'm a 
left-Libertarian - I vote for them because they are opposed to the WOD and
most of the recent extensions of government power over the people
by the Warren and later courts down (to the dregs) to Clarence Thomas.
You can take your touchy-feely system that drags everything to some
bigoted judge and leaves your fate to the whims of troglodyte bureaucrats,
and shove it anywhere I don't want to go.  That's the system of
Quail-Bush and Shearer-Clinton and TV news.

As to the right-Libertarians, their system has no checks and balances
and is just a utopian fantasy anyway.  Utopian fantasies are fun to
explore, but it is a dangerous delusion to think they can really be
imposed on the real world.  


	 George Tucker        tucker@tcville.hac.com
What is the world's largest government subsidy to agriculture,
terrorism, speedboat manufacturing, organized crime, and prison
construction?
Newsgroups: sci.econ
From: tolman%asylum.cs.utah.edu@cs.utah.edu (Kenneth Tolman)
Subject: Re: Libertarians live in Virtual Reality
Date: 14 Aug 92 16:56:59 MDT
Organization: University of Utah, CompSci Dept

>>>and the only reason any business owners seem to cheat now is that
>>>government regulations confuse the issues.
>
>>This has got to be the biggest bunch of crap ever written.  If you have
>>ever worked for a business, you will see them trying to glean every penny
>>from any possible source available.  It should be a requisite that any
>>person attempting to make economic statements should be employed in 
>>ordinary businesses, from small to large.
>
>Have you ever worked for a business of any size.  I notice that you are
>posting from a .edu sight, this makes me wonder.  I will state categorically
>that I have worked for several companies, of all sizes and I have never
>seen the type of behavior that you describe.

I have worked for at least 30 different organizations.  There were not
outright scandals in all of them- but in some of them I was not near any
actual decision making people, so could not say.  But I have personally
witnessed by managers:

overcharging
forcing employees to do extremely dangerous tasks (pick up vats of boiling
  oil)
lying to customers
unsanitary food reusage
misrepresentation of product

In all of these cases, the manager was trying to help themselves out (and they
did)  And always, it is subtle.  A Libertarian point of view celebrates this
trickery- it certainly does not condemn it at least.  If you can get away with
it - it is OKAY.  

Newsgroups: sci.econ
From: pjs@world.std.com (Paul J Schmidt)
Subject: Re: Libertarians live in Virtual Reality
Organization: Advocates for Self-Government - Davy Crockett Chapter
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL3
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 20:16:36 GMT

tolman%asylum.cs.utah.edu@cs.utah.edu (Kenneth Tolman) writes:
: I have worked for at least 30 different organizations.  There were not
: outright scandals in all of them- but in some of them I was not near any
: actual decision making people, so could not say.  But I have personally
: witnessed by managers:
: 
: overcharging
: forcing employees to do extremely dangerous tasks (pick up vats of boiling
:   oil)
: lying to customers
: unsanitary food reusage
: misrepresentation of product
: 
I want to get products that I buy to be safe and I want the supplier
to be honest.  UL is a private organization that tests products for
safety and does a much better job.  There are two reasons why UL will be
better than a governmental regulatory agency:  financial liability and
competition.  If a product fails that has UL approval, a liability law
suit can seek damages from UL itself.  In the case of a government
agency, this is also true -- but who ends up paying? -- us, the
taxpayers.  Competition is another factor.  If products start failing
that are approved by a particular agency, buyers can choose another
agency for it's approval.  If the governmental agency is doing poorly,
the only recourse the consumers have is to write their congressmen. And
if they do nothing vote them out of office.  This is impracticle, since
it could take years, and agency preformance is usually at the bottom of
anyone's list for choosing their elected.  A private approval agency
works out much better than government regulation.
: 
: In all of these cases, the manager was trying to help themselves out (and they
: did)  And always, it is subtle.  A Libertarian point of view celebrates this
: trickery- it certainly does not condemn it at least.  If you can get away with
: it - it is OKAY.  

I want people to act in moral, responsible ways.  Libertarians think
fraud is wrong just as much as anyone else, and condemn such actions.
Government regulation of companies that have not committed any fraud is
inefficient and immoral.  Voluntary regulation, such as UL, is both
moral and more effective.
-- 
Paul Schmidt: Advocates for Self-Government, Davy Crockett Chapter President
706 Judith Drive, Johnson City, TN 37604, (615)283-0084, uunet!tijc02!pjs269
"Freedom seems to have unleashed the  creative energies of the people -- and
leads to ever higher levels of income and social progress."  --  U.N. report
From: darrell.crone@ozonehole.new-orleans.la.us (Darrell Crone) 
Newsgroups: lou.general
Subject: GUNS-N-ROSES/METALICA
Date: 21 Aug 92 13:08:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: The Ozone Hole BBS - New Orleans, LA - (504)891-3142 16800 Baud
Reply-To: darrell.crone@ozonehole.new-orleans.la.us (Darrell Crone) 

If anyone is interested I have two tickets on the floor in the front of
the stage for the G-N-R/Metalica/Faith No More concert in New Orleans
which I am not going to be able to use.

If you are interested in these tickets please contact me at:

        darrell.crone@ozonehole.new-orleans.la.us

Thanks!
                                                                                
Newsgroups: lou.general,tulane.general
From: barad@cs.tulane.edu (Herb Barad)
Subject: PIXAR for sale
Nntp-Posting-Host-[nntpd-27155]: zeus
Organization: Electrical Engineering Dept., Tulane Univ., New Orleans, LA
Distribution: lou
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 13:59:04 GMT

While we're on the subject of liquidation...

FOR SALE:

		PIXAR II Image Processor
		32 MBytes of memory (high-speed)
		All the software packages (Chaps, IPChaps, etc.)
		17" Sony Trinotron Monitor
		Interface board for Sun 3 - if you want to use another
			front-end, you would only need to purchase
			another version of this board (about $1.5K)

		Asking: $5,000 (obo)

		(brand new this system would be close to $40K now)


Herb Barad
-- 
Herb Barad	[Electrical Engineering Dept. - Tulane Univ.]
INTERNET:	barad@ee.tulane.edu

USMail:		Electrical Engineering Dept.
		Tulane Univ.
		New Orleans, LA 70118-5674
		phone: (504) 865-5785
From: michael.mathews@ozonehole.new-orleans.la.us (Michael Mathews) 
Newsgroups: lou.general
Subject: The Ozone Hole BBS!
Date: 17 Aug 92 20:58:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: The Ozone Hole BBS - New Orleans, LA - (504)891-3142 16800 Baud
Reply-To: michael.mathews@ozonehole.new-orleans.la.us (Michael Mathews) 


Well, since I did get a few inquiries about the board I might as well
tell you a little about us...

The BBS is a PCBoard 14.5a system.  We are running off of a 486/33 MHz
EISA clone.

The BBS is a full service online information system.  We offer two
call-in lines both running USRobotics HST Dual Standards.  We have a
third USR Dual Standard with FAX capabilities on order.  When it gets in
we are going to set it up so that you can enter a message on the BBS and
have it sent as a FAX anywhere in the country.

We are running 2 CD-ROM drives with about 750 megs of shareware on each
of them and one CD-ROM with 700+ megs of nothing but adult stuff.  We
are going to be getting a 1 Gig SCSI drive and another CD-ROM drive in
the late Fall this year.

We offer from the board via download USA Today Decisionline each
business day after 5am in a packet which is typically about 65K and
takes about 5 minutes to download at 2400 baud.  We are a licensed
distribution site for Boardwatch Magazine in both the electronic and the
printed edition.  Subscribers of the BBS enjoy an added discount off the
cover price of the printed edition of Boardwatch Magazine.  We are also
the home port for ViewPOINTS 2000 newspaper (which is just getting
started).

If you like sports we are the place for you.  We have local sports
conferences which are also just getting started, but are going to be the
big attraction for sports fans as we are giving away free subscriptions
to the winners of our picks contests.

As far as InterNet goes:  we are connected through Tulane using UUCP and
are getting a large news feed...about 200+ newsgroups.  the advantage of
getting mail and news from the BBS is that you canuse your offline mail
reader to reply to mail and news.  these use an editor which is MUCH
more friendly than your typical UNIX editor <grin>.  Also entering
messages offline gives you pleanty of time and you do it at your leisure
instead of being rushed online.

Anyone interested in finding out more about the BBS is welcome to either
send me a reply or call the BBS.  You may call in at either N-8-1 or
7-E-1.  The BBS will adjust to suite your needs.  If you will let me
know you saw this message and that you are interested in the BBS when
you log on (via a comment at the main menu) then I will gladly set you
up with a two or three week test drive so that you may evaluate whether
or not you would like to become a member.

Thanks for the attention and I hope to see you on the BBS soon!

---
Michael Mathews - The Ozone Hole     mr.mike@ozonehole.new-orleans.la.us
A Private Bulletin Board System      theozone!mr.mike
(504)891-3142 16,800 Baud            Postlink: ->OZONEHOLE<-
---
 . DeLuxe./386 1.25 #1276s . Bigamy - One wife too many  Monogamy - Same Thing!
                                              
Newsgroups: lou.general,tulane.general
From: mb@cs.tulane.edu (Mark Benard)
Subject: Old rex (Pyramid 9815) for sale
Nntp-Posting-Host-[nntpd-15617]: thoth
Organization: Computer Science Dept., Tulane Univ., New Orleans, LA
Distribution: lou
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 17:57:24 GMT

We are taking our Pyramid 9815 (formerly known as rex) out of service when
the current maintenance contract expires at the end of September.  It is
just too costly (in terms of maintenance) for us to continue operating.

We are willing to sell it as a whole or as parts.  Contact me if you
are interested by email or telephone (504-865-5840).

Here is the system configuration.  All of the hardware except for the Eagle
disk drive is under Pyramid maintenance through Sept.  30.

    Pyramid 9815 processor, with IOP, TPE, ITP
    32 MB memory (16 MB Pyramid, 16 MB Dataram)
    NEC 2363 1.2 GB SMD-E disk
    Eagle 450 MB tape drive
    Cipher 9 track tape drive
    Wyse 60 console terminal (will sell only with whole system)
    software: OSx5.1, NSP, Pascal, FORTRAN, Lisp

Availability: whole system - anytime
	      parts - latter part of September
-- 
Mark Benard
Department of Computer Science     INTERNET & BITNET: mb@cs.tulane.edu
Tulane University                  USENET:   rex!mb
New Orleans, LA 70118