From: wilcox@vax.oxford.ac.uk
Newsgroups: uk.misc
Subject: Re: Health care (READ/NEWRe: Transport subsidies - Was: Car Parking
Date: 15 Dec 92 17:36:36 GMT
Distribution: uk
Organization: Oxford University VAX 6620

In article <29178@castle.ed.ac.uk>, fofp@castle.ed.ac.uk (M Holmes) writes:
[Sorry, the bit's in double >s are me]
>>I wasn't talking about `forcing' people to contribute, I was talking about
>>forcing people to ask for charity. You advocated that those who could pay
>>should be `allowed' to and those who couldn't should ask for charity to pay for
>>necessary medical work. (If that's not what you said, sorry.) In my book that's
>>forcing people to beg for charity when they're ill: something than no-one
>>*ever* should be made to do in a civilised society.
> 
> We have a different definition of "force". For me, it's force when
> someone uses threat or violence to make someone do something without
> consent. That clearly isn't the case in the scenario you advocate.
> 
Look at it this way. In the year 2050 (to take an arbitrary date) the
government of the day abolishes the national health service. By that stage I
will be a pensioner, and I will probably not be a well-off pensioner. For a
start I will have to ask someone for money which until then I would have got as
a right. (You've abolished the entire Inland Revenue, so we can take it for
granted that you've abolished national insurance and the old age pension.)
After all, I have been eking out an existence all my life, barely able to pay
my bills and certainly not able to invest in a pension plan. I will then fall
ill, so any work I might have had up till then I will not be able to do. What
am I to do? My landlord is about to throw me out on the streets: he is
THREATENING me with eviction. I have run out of money so I have had to go to a
loan shark to pay my rent. If I don't pay up he has THREATENED to send his
heavies round to use VIOLENCE to extort my last few coppers. I am a proud man.
I DO NOT CONSENT to asking for charity from one of the new health charities
which has been set up in a hurry. To sum up, under your definition of force
(which is unnecessarily limited, and doesn't, BTW, imply that taxation is
forced) I have been forced to beg for charity.

> They could be ill rather than go to the charities. I'd be unhappy if
> someone felt they had to do that but I'd respect their choice. I really
> doubt that going to a charity would be nearly half as bad as going to a
> government benefit office. 
> 
Turn `they' into `I' and you might change your mind.

>>OK, your choice is clear. Either you force the sick to beg for charity
>>or you
>>force the well-off to pay taxes so that when they are ill and have no money
>>they don't have to beg for charity.
> 
> You advocate forcing everyone to pay taxes, not just the well-off.
No I don't. I advocate the well-off having to pay taxes. I do not believe that
everyone should have to pay a tax, regardless of his ability to pay.

> Let's not skew the argument here. If enough were raised voluntarily,
> then there'd be no need to force anyone to pay taxes. Remember that in
> the current majoritarian system, there are already more than half who
> are willing to pay, so the problem isn't as large as you imply.
> 
*IF* enough were raised voluntarily. You suggest that already more than half
are willing to pay (a dubious suggestion, BTW). That still leaves potentially 
a large number who aren't willing to pay. Since we don't raise enough in taxes
as it is (or rather don't once certain optional extras, like ridiculously
over-powerful `defence' forces have been included), this minority who wouldn't
pay would be responsible for enormous cuts in public health.

>>Some element of compulsion is necessary in a civilised society.
> 
> I think we must have different definitions of "civilised" too. Let's
> start at the beginning. How about you describe: "dictatorship".
> "democracy" and "tyranny of the majority". If we can distinguish these
> cases we might proceed a little with this debate.

Dictatorship: A system of government in which one person or a very small group
of people decide policy. Classic examples are Germany under Hitler, the Roman
Empire, Russia under Stalin, most European countries in the middle ages.
`Dictatorship' can also be used when a comparatively small, though not very
small group of people decide policy. Classic examples: Athens in classical
times (policy decided by all citizens), South Africa now. I would prefer to
call this form of government oligarchy: dictatorship is almost universally bad
for the governed people, whereas oligarchy (such as in Athens) can be generally
benevolent.

Democracy: Literally government by the people, and in its purest form in
Athens, when the people (the citizens) made up the ruling body. It is now used
to mean representative or delegative democracy, in which the people vote for
representatives or delegates (depending on whether they are bound to follow the
wishes of their electors) some of who then make up the ruling body. It is
generally thought that some form of democracy is the best form of government on
the latter part of this century, though there is disagreement as to what sort.
Democracy depends, crucially, on the whole country accepting the will of the
elected body. That does not mean that there should be no opposition, but it
does mean that laws made by the ruling body should be kept.  Classic exapmles:
Western Europe, the USA, Australia, New Zealand, in fact almost every single
one of the most succesful industrial countries of the world: oddly enough
democratic countries have the best record on human rights.
 
 Tyranny of the majority: A tyranny is a dictatorship (qv). The majority is more
than 50% of the population. So tyranny of the majority should mean dicatorship
by millions of people. In fact it is an emotive term used by certain extreme
libertarians to persuade people that the country they are now living in is not
as fair and as free as it first seemed. 

-- 

Stephen Wilcox             |   For Sale: Posts in British Government. Suit
wilcox@vax.oxford.ac.uk    |   outgoing American. Highest bids accepted.
Newsgroups: uk.misc