From: nelson@reed.edu (Nelson Minar)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Age-ism and the gay community
Date: 20 Dec 92 12:31:32 GMT
Article-I.D.: reed.1992Dec20.123132.19229
Reply-To: nelson@reed.edu (Nelson Minar)
Organization: Reed College, Portland, OR

I'm glad this topic has come up. It's something I've thought
about a fair amount, but I've been uncomfortable discussing it until
now. I've been writing this article for two years.

The short message: many of the men I find attractive are noticeably
older than I am. I don't really know or care why. The way people react
to this sometimes annoys me.

(I almost feel like I'm coming out again..)

The long message: I've formed friendships with people much older than
me since as long as I can remember. Several of my closer friends in
high school were teachers. Most of my other friends were from a group
of people in their twenties and thirties. I only had a few friends of
my own age.

I find that the erotic imagery that appeals to me the most is usually
that of "older men". I like grey beards. I don't care for cute young
twinks with "perfect" muscles.

I'm not really interested in "daddy/son" relationships. I don't have
problem with people who like that sort of thing, but it doesn't
fulfill what I need in a romantic relationship. What I want requires
an equality that I would not label "daddy/son".

I do not like it when a man (usually older) demonstrates a sexual
interest in me because I am young. I hate the term "chicken" - I think
it is fundamentally demeaning. I'm glad when people think I'm sexy,
and if part of the reason they think I'm sexy is because I'm young,
great. I do not like it when people try to acquire me because I'm
young and therefore supposedly desirable. I don't like it: I want to
be treated with respect.

I resent the claim that younger men interested in older men are only
looking for father figures. I find this theory to be as repugnant as
the idea that queer men are afraid of women.

My tastes are not exclusive. In fact, most of my lovers have been
about five years older than I, not the twenty or thirty I'm talking
about in this posting.

I haven't had many opportunities to pursue my interest in "older men".
One of the main reasons is lack of availability - most of my time is
spent on a college campus full of people in their early 20s. I haven't
found the time to get very involved in the Portland lesbigay community.

The thing that gives me the most pain is the reactions I get and fear
getting because of my interest in men older than I. It's not so hard
for me to tell people I'm queer anymore: there's a lot of social and
political support for that. It's much harder for me to tell people
that I'm interested in "older men". It's especially hard for me when
the person I am telling is near my own age.

Presbyphilia (thanks, Steve, for the great word) seems to tread across
some deep-seated social taboo that I don't understand. What is so
titillating about the idea of an intergenerational relationship? They
seem perfectly natural to me. Why is it shocking?

Robert is a fine example of the discomfort I feel in talking about my
interest in older men. (Actually, Robert is a fine example of many
more pleasant things. But I digress.) Robert is noticeably older than
I am: he's in his mid to late 40s, I'm 20. We met at the con, and we
hit it off, and it has been so very nice.

From time to time I'll mention Robert to some of my friends at Reed,
friends my own age. When I talk about him, I get nervous when personal
details are discussed because they make it clear that Robert is not my
age. I've actually lied about Robert's age to avoid having to deal
with a possible negative reaction. I felt bad about it: it seems a lot
like changing pronouns so someone doesn't think you're queer.

In contrast, no one on motss has ever been obnoxious to me about the
difference in the ages between Robert and me. No one said a thing at
the con, nothing negative on motss, nothing in mail. If people even
notice, it seems they don't care. I find this acceptance to be
wonderfully refreshing: it makes it much easier to post this article.
Thank you.

Why is so little written on this topic? Most of the writing I've seen
about older gay men is depressing ageist crap. I haven't seen anything
at all about intergenerational relationships. There are lots of
issues: how can it be that no one has written about them?

For that matter, why is all porn about 20 year old boys with no body
hair and perfect gym muscles? *Boring*. Bear magazine seems to have a
few models who are over 30, but still nothing like what I'm interested
in. There has to be erotica/porn featuring "older men" - but where?

Now, a few bits of response:

In article <1992Dec18.021033.13179@bsu-ucs> 00bbharris@leo.bsuvc.bsu.edu writes:
>I get tired of individuals who assume that because i am my age that i
>act my age.  

I get tired of individuals who make assumptions about me because of
any arbitrary characteristic - age, gender, race, etc. 

>Nor are my interests solely within the generation i just happened to
>be born in.

This is one of the nicer things about soc.motss for me, the fact that
I can interact with queer people of all ages.  It's not so much that
our ages don't matter: they certainly do.  But it only matters for
those things that it should matter for: what we've experienced, what
our perspective on the world is, etc.

>I have had the... priviledge of attending a gay bar, once and met two
>wonderful gys there (at different times, people!).  One of them found
>out i was 18 and realized it didn't matter.  The other freaked out,
>even after dating me for three weeks and seemingly enjoying my company.

When I was in high school, 16, I started an account on a dating
service bulletin board (as a Bi male - it was a big deal for me to be
queer somewhere). I lied about my age and said I was 18-20 so that
people would take me seriously. When I finally met someone from the
board he was very upset that I had lied, but we straightened it out
and then fell in love. (You listening, Jay?)

>Why is the criteria for gay men over the age of 21 is to find a man
>over the age of 21?

Some people make the mistake of assuming that the sheer number of
years you've lived is more important that age-related characteristics
of your personality like maturity, experience, etc. It's stupid, but
then again a lot of people act dumb.

Another issue I've run into is that some gay men are very
uncomfortable associating with people under 21 because they are afraid
of serious legal or social reprocussions. This is an unfortunate fact
of life. It gets even more complicated when the person is not quite
yet 18. A lot of people who are almost 18 are mature enough to be
having sexual relationships, but the law often forbids it. This can be
bad news.

>I just really want to know why this sort of Age-ism exist within the
>gay community.  As oppressed as we are as a whole, why would we in
>turn suppress another group for something we cannot help.

Maybe for the same reasons other prejudices exist in the gay
community, because as "oppressed" as we may be we are still human?

Ageism is peculiar. Age is a reasonably valid way of judging people.
Personality is partially maturity, and maturity is frequently
dependent on chronological age.

But there's a lot of room for equal relationships between people of
differing ages. I'm glad for this. Still, intergenerational
relationships seem to have societal baggage associated that I really
could do without.
                __
nelson@reed.edu \/          Days go by, endlessly pulling you into the future
Newsgroups: soc.motss