From: werner@cs.utexas.edu (Werner Uhrig)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: CLARIFICATION: Translation help, bitte.
Date: 12 Nov 1992 09:41:12 -0600
Organization: CS Dept, University of Texas at Austin
NNTP-Posting-Host: dimebox.cs.utexas.edu

 bdm@cs.anu.edu.au writes:

||    Das deutsche Ziel w\"urde dann lediglich die Vernichtung des 
||    im arabischen Raum unter der Protektion der britischen Macht 
||    lebenden Judentums sein.
||
|| my question is: How would a reasonable person in 1941
|| WITHOUT BENEFIT OF HINDSIGHT have translated that sentence?


>(b) The speaker (S) is a top Nazi (I will identify him later.).
>    He knows everything there is to know about Hitler's intentions
>    at the time (late 1941).  
>
>(c) The listener (L) is a foreigner who wants German support for 
>    his own nationalist aims.  (I will also identify him later.)
>    He is definitely NOT a confidant of the Nazi leadership; i.e., 
>    he does NOT have previous "inside knowledge" of Nazi intentions.  
>    As far as is known, this is the first time anyone has promised
>    him something so strong as "Vernichtung des..Judentums". 
>
>(d) Earlier in the same conversation, L had asked S for "Beseitigung 
>    der nationalj\"udischen Heimat" (abolition of the Jewish national 
>    home).

	the translation I had offered was making the assumptions (b) and
	(c) and from the phrasing I suspected "something like" (d)...


>My problem is NOT "what did the Nazi S actually mean?"  It is:
>
>  ** What did the foreigner L believe he was being promised? **

	well, quite honestly, that is asking too much for anyone to
	say who is not an intimate confidant of L...  (and even then,
	I would wonder...)


>To elaborate a little, would L have come away with a clear belief 
>that the Nazis would kill every Jew in Arab lands, or might he
>have reasonably interpretted those words as just a more forceful
>way to promise "Beseitigung der nationalj\"udischen Heimat"?

	I simply do not believe that *ANYONE* would have anticipated
	the holocaust, and that only with hindsight (or insight at
	the time) could one have guessed at "extermination" - and I
	doubt that L had any such insight or expectation.  Heck, the
	Nazis didn't trust their own foreign service with "insight"
	in their plans and actions...  without proof, I am unwilling to
	believe that L was ever presented with proof of Nazi extermination
	activities...

	think of it this way:
	I would suspect that upon digging around a little, one might find
	one or the other "communication" or plan by the Allies which might
	have talked of "the annihilation of Japanese forces/pressence/...
	...in <insert a Pacific island>...";  what was one to assume?
	would anyone have believed in a My-Lay massacre, a illegal war
	in Laos, without proof and benefit of hindsight?  At the time
	those you publicly suggested that this was going on were called
	lunatics....


>(I would consider this to be a feasible interpretation of the
>English phrase "destruction of the Jewish element" in the context.)
>Remember: L was NOT a member of the Nazi inner circle.

	I would assume it to be VERY difficult to establish what the
	knowledge and/or assumptions of L were, nor even if he ever
	gave much thought to the specific details of what behavior (and
	extent of cruelty) the Nazis might display 'in the event'...

	
>I apologise if anyone finds this subject matter offensive.  Please
>understand that I am seriously interested in the study of history, 
>not with pushing any particular political line.

	I find it important to explore and establish what collaboration
	and encouragement the Nazis received EVERYWHERE - and not just
	in Germany;  too much has been conveniently swept under the
	carpet', not only in countries occupied by the Nazis (France,
	Austria, Poland and all the eastern countries come to mind, not
	least the parts of former Yugoslavia) but also, and ESPECIALLY
	important is it to explore what countries like England, the USA,
	and others could (and should) have done (and actually did) to
	prevent it all from happening...  There is an urgent need to
	recognize "early signs" (as experiences in Iraq, Yugoslavia, and
	the (once Soviet) USSR-puzzle-pieces currently remind us...),
	not to forget the lessons "we" apparently never wanted to learn,
	from events in countries of Latin America (Chile, Argentina, Brazil,
	Uruguay, Colombia, El Salvador, Honduras, Guatemala,...), Africa
	(too many to name), Asia (Laos, Cambodia, Vietnam, Sri Lanka,
	Burma, ...)
	

	*I* look forward to learn more about details of your research
	(I'm somewhat of a student of both history and cultures, but have
	never actually read into this particular area; on one hand because
	so few records are readily available, on the other hand because
	"more present concerns" tended to attract my attention - and the
	Vietnam conflict and life in Latin America "mattered personally"
	to me (during the last 25 years)...


	But without ever having become knowledgable in details of the
	Arab and Islamic culture, over the years I have developed a
	sincere appreciation of how well it seems to compare over the
	centuries with the Christian/Western cultures....
-- 
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