HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ah690549@mbcr.bcm.tmc.edu (Annette C. Hollmann)
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
Subject: Re: Hiring quotas and faculty positions
Date: 10 Sep 92 03:52:45 GMT
Organization: Baylor College of Medicine, Houston, Tx

I think that it is worng to make separate lists for minorities and
"majorities" wit the intent of discriminating for or against the minority.
The ideal way to handle the situation would be to cover the names on the
cv's during the first stages of selection. All publications should be
cited showing the first initial and the surname rather that the complete
name for each author. That way, the committee will not know if the
applicant is male or female until they decide to invite that person for an
interview. To avoid identification of gender before that stage,
communication should be limited to email, fax, or snail-mail rather than
phone. Because most applicants will not be invited for an interview,
covering up the names will prevent 90% of the discrimination.

I would not accept a position that was obviously part of an affirmative
action program. I would rather know that I got the job by fair and square
competition.

C.A.Hollmann ;-)
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: johnston@fys.ruu.nl (Helen Johnston)
Subject: Re: Hiring quotas and faculty positions (Repost #2)
Organization: Physics Department, University of Utrecht, The Netherlands
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 19:06:15 GMT

In article <21929@optima.cs.arizona.edu> debray@cs.arizona.edu (Saumya K. Debray) writes:

[example deleted]
>
>You're hiring someone with certain technical duties (research, teaching)
>in mind.  From this perspective, you've given some good examples and
>argued convincingly that _going_by_technical_criteria_, there may not
>be a single "best" person who suits your needs.  I don't see anyone
>arguing with this.  The important point here is that you're using
>technical criteria to evaluate a person for a job involving certain
>technical duties.

But the line between "technical criteria" and other qualities is often
very fuzzy. Further, there are many examples where people are rejected
for a position for reasons not related to their competence as
researchers or teachers. A hiring committee I was on recently made
explicit that they were looking for the person who "contributed the most
to the department". So one person, whose research was very possibly
superior to that of other applicants, was turned down because his work
overlapped too much with someone in the department. This had nothing to
do with HIS research qualities, but with the needs of the department. I
see nothing inconsistent about a department deciding that they need a
female or minority department member who can act as a mentor and role
model for students. 

-- 
Helen Johnston       | Astronomye is an harde thynge and yvel forto knowe.
johnston@fys.ruu.nl  |      -- William Langland, Piers the Plowman
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: gilligan@bldrdoc.gov (Jonathan M. Gilligan)
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
Subject: Re: Stigma was Re: Hiring quotas and faculty positions
Date: 15 Sep 92 23:25:29 GMT
Organization: National Institute of Standards and Technology

In article <14SEP199221034456@jetson.uh.edu> schieber@jetson.uh.edu (Schieber, Jay D.) writes:
|>One piece of evidence that the perception of 
|>real opportunity has a tremendous difference is given by the following
|>anecdotal occurrence:  An alumnus of a very poor NYC public school
|>became very wealthy by running his own business.  The principal of the
|>high school asked him to come visit the school and tell the students
|>that they could make it if they tried.  He decided to go one better,
|>and offered to pay the tuition of any student who graduated in that
|>class and got accepted at a university.  Since no more than one or
|>two students from any graduating class had ever gone to university,
|>he expected to pay for only three or four, at most.  It ends up
|>that he his expectation were correct, because the bulk of the
|>class got scholarships to their universities.  I read this in
|>the NYT several years ago, but have not read any followups on
|>how well that class did in university.
|>
|>At any rate, it may be possible to see if individuals of underrepresented
|>groups who went to progressive schools faired better than the average
|>members of that group.  There may be a statistically large enough sample.

The alumnus is named Eugene Lang, and he has established a foundation,
called I Have a Dream, that coordinates similar efforts. The story is
somewhat more complicated than this simple picture. While the cost of
providing tuition is fairly small, both because students often win
scholarships and because many Universities now have matching-fund
programs for I Have a Dream students, the amount of time and money
needed to support these students' progress in high school is
considerable. Lang's class required lots of tutoring and advising.
Lang gave them an open door into his office to ask for advice or to
``shoot the breeze.''  From what I've read, most of them did quite
well in college, but Lang has repeatedly said that this would not have
been possible if he had only given money and not provided consistent
support and encouragement to the students.

---Jon
-- 

Disclaimer --- The government probably disagrees with my opinions.
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers,sci.research
From: rr2@cec2.wustl.edu (Rajamiyer Ravichandran)
Subject: Fellowship Opportunity in Structural Mechanics
Organization: Washington University, St. Louis MO
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 15:07:22 GMT




           FELLOWSHIP  OPPORTUNITY  IN STRUCTURAL  MECHANICS
          --------------------------------------------------


	A fellowship for a duration of three years is available for advanced 
work in the field of "Composite Structural Mechanics" in the department of 
Civil Engineering, Washington University in St. Louis. The fellowship would pay a monthly stipend not less than $ 1500 a month and full tution. 
Only U.S. Citizens are eligible. We are seeking a Civil or Mechanical 
Engineering graduate student interested in pursuing a doctoral program. 

	The fellowship is awarded by the Office of Naval Research undr the 
EPSCoR ( Experimental Program to Stimulate Competitive Research) and is attached
to a parent ONR Grant awarded to Professor S. Sridharan. 


	Interested candidates please contat either

        Ms. Sonya Reed @ (314)-935-6303   Or
        Prof. S. Sridharan (314)-935-6348.

Mailing Address:

		Department of Civil Engineering
		Campus Box 1130
		Washington University
		St. Louis, MO 63130.



Note:  Please do not email your responses to my account. I am only posting this
       on behalf of Prof. Sridharan.
From: karr@cs.cornell.edu (David Karr)
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
Subject: Re: Hiring quotas and faculty positions
Date: 11 Sep 92 04:59:23 GMT
Article-I.D.: cs.1992Sep11.045923.22479
Organization: Cornell Univ. CS Dept, Ithaca NY 14853

In article <1950@snap> paj@uk.co.gec-mrc (Paul Johnson) writes:
>In article <1992Sep9.215223.22997@netnews.noc.drexel.edu> David.Koert@CoE.Drexel.EDU (Dave Koert) writes:
>
>>This summer, I was one of four finalists to interview for [...]
>
>[A woman was hired in preferance, more because of her sex than her
>abilities, although she was well qualified]

You seem to think that the woman was somehow less qualified than Dave.
(See your other quote below.)  In his post I saw only evidence that
she had a different specialty than the one they were originally
looking for.

Since insisting on a particular specialty is likely to reject more
able individuals in favor of less able on (, at least if you believe
that it is at all possible to rank all candidates on an objective
scale, it cannot be defended by considerations of "fairness."  It must
further some academic goal of the University.  The Dean evidently felt
there was a more important academic goal (i.e., a diverse faculty).

>I do not think it is chauvinistic to object when someone less well
>qualified than you gets a job, [...]

I'd like to know your basis for the assumption that this happened.

>o It is bad for the fight against racism and sexism because it
>  produces disgruntled people who feel that they have been passed over
>  because of their sex or colour (and note that if one ethnic woman is
>  hired under such a program then all the other candidates will blame
>  the program for their failure).  Such people are ripe for
>  recruitment by white supremacists.
>
>o And it is bad for the people who get hired because whatever their
>  abilities may actually be the whole office knows "she only got her
>  job because...."

These are the only valid arguments against "affirmative action," but
note how they are predicated on rampant, widespread racism and sexism,
which would indicate that affirmative action really is needed.

>[...] two wrongs do not make a right.

... but three lefts do.

Seriously, isn't this like arguing that you can't balance an object
subjected to a destabilizing force by applying a force in the opposite
direction?

-- David Karr (karr@cs.cornell.edu)
Xref: sparky sci.research.careers:961 soc.culture.canada:6426
From: primeaux@wham-o.cs.utk.edu (David Primeaux)
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
Subject: Re: New Topic
Date: 9 Sep 92 21:18:22 GMT
Organization: University of Tennessee, Knoxville - Department of Computer Science
Distribution: sci
Reply-To: primeaux@wham-o.cs.utk.edu (David Primeaux)
NNTP-Posting-Host: wham-o.cs.utk.edu

In article <1992Sep9.203808.4479@m.cs.uiuc.edu>, gillies@m.cs.uiuc.edu (Don Gillies) writes:
|> I've noticed that there is very little activity on this group lately,
|> and I think it's probably because the fabricant stuff has driven
|> everybody away.  Will you fabricant people please let it rest.  It
|> really doesn't serve a purpose to rehash one guy's career.  Why not
|> move it to alt.homicide.warranted or someplace where it can be better
|> appreciated.
|> 
|> I am graduating soon with a ph.d. in c.s., and I was wondering what
|> was the best way to go about possibly getting a post-doc?  I was badly
|> discouraged during last year's academic job hunt, and I may want to
|> change areas.  I have heard that there are only about 100 post-doc
|> spots for the entire field of C.S. (which has about 1000 graduates per
|> year).  Has anyone taken a post-doc in the USA?  What area was it in?
|> How competitive is the post-doc search process?  What is the best way
|> to go about finding such a position?
|> 
|> Don Gillies - gillies@cs.uiuc.edu - University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
|> 

What area are you in?  What area would you change to?  I suspect that
responses relating to this topic will be of interest to more than a few.
I am particularly interested, since I am in a similar situation (also cs).
Please post replies.

-- David
primeaux@cs.utk.edu
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: debray@cs.arizona.edu (Saumya K. Debray)
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
Subject: Re: Hiring quotas and faculty positions
Date: 12 Sep 92 20:32:36 GMT
Organization: U of Arizona CS Dept, Tucson

schieber@jetson.uh.edu (Schieber, Jay D.) writes:

> What you call "the job" is not so narrowly defined
> that it excludes many factors involving things like representation,
> role models, mentors, empowering, etc; at least, not so defined
> by me.  If you wish to define the job description for faculty
> member very narrowly, then I would say that you are not going
> to get a very good department.

Well, I suppose the "goodness" of a department is in the eye of the 
beholder.  Still, most CS people I've met applied to particular
departments, not because of the mentoring or empowering available 
there, but because they'd get to work with people who had reputations
as damn good computer scientists.
-- 
Saumya Debray
Dept. of Computer Science, University of Arizona, Tucson
debray@cs.arizona.edu
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: schieber@jetson.uh.edu (Schieber, Jay D.)
Subject: Re: Hiring quotas and faculty positions (Repost #2)
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: University of Houston
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 23:12:00 GMT

In article <1992Sep14.154350.21119@netnews.noc.drexel.edu>, David.Koert@CoE.Drexel.EDU (Dave Koert) writes...
>In article <13SEP199215172372@jetson.uh.edu> Schieber, schieber@jetson.uh.edu
>writes:
>>In article <1992Sep13.131845.20030@tc.cornell.edu>, 
>>bai@msiadmin.cit.cornell.edu (Dov Bai-MSI Visitor) writes...
>>>In article <12SEP199219100161@vtcc1.cc.vt.edu> merolajs@vtcc1.cc.vt.edu 
>>(JOSEPH S. MEROLA DEPT OF CHEMISTRY VPI&SU) writes:
>>>>
>>>>Perhaps we now come to the crux of the discussion.  What 
>>>>exactly do you see as the function of the university professor?
>>> 
>>>Teacher, researcher, various professional committees at the 
>>>department.
>>> 
>>>>If the only thing I had to do in my position
>>>>were to supervise research and teach a few classes, then my
>>>>job would be a snap. 
>>> 
>>>You must be kidding here. Teachers at community colleges teach
>>>almost 100% of their time. Researchers at national laboratories
>>>and various research professors at universities do research close
>>>to 100% of their time and many of them would tell you they wish
>>>the day would be 30 hours so they finish their projects. Why
>>>do you say that the above duties are a snap to do ? 
>>
>>YOU must be kidding.  Most research professor only have about
>>30% of their time to devote to research.  The rest is writing
>>grant proposals, sitting on committees, supervising students, teaching,
>>refereeing publications, etc. Professors often wax poetic about how
>>nice it would be to spend the first 40 hours in the week doing 
>>research instead of the remaining 20.  I pine for the days
>>of a postdoc or late graduate student just teaching and doing
>>research.
> 
>Does the recent 8 hours per week of reading sci.research.carreers
>postings and writing large numbers picayune rebuttals take a significant
>cut out of those "remaining 20" ? :-)

YES! And I am about to quit, because I see that the rebuttals of
Dov and SEH are degenerating rapidly.  I have read your replies,
and believe that you are struggling honestly with difficult questions.
It is one of the reasons that I kept writing.

If the level of discussion goes up any time soon, I *may* reenter the
fray (against my own better judgment :-).

> 
> 
> 
>dave koert, research assist. prof.       | "You can't excuse your own abuse
>combustion & fuels group, hess labs      |  because someone caused you pain."
>Mechanical Eng. Dept. (MEM), Drexel Univ.|   from the play, AND I STILL RISE
>David.Koert@CoE.Drexel.EDU               |         by Mya Angelo
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers,soc.culture.asian.american
From: bai@msiadmin.cit.cornell.edu (Dov Bai-MSI Visitor)
Subject: Re: Asian-American success (was Re: Hiring quotas and faculty positions)
Organization: /usr/local/lib/news/organization
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1992 03:13:50 GMT

In article <1992Sep11.234110.15890@tamsun.tamu.edu> achin@math.tamu.edu writes:
>For s.c.a.a readers:  the age-old affirmative action debate has infected
>sci.research.careers.  Let's tune in:
>
>In article 3354@tc.cornell.edu, bai@msiadmin.cit.cornell.edu (Dov Bai-MSI Visitor) writes:
>>Here you are making the assumption that if one's teachers and 
>>upbringing were inferior, then this person is cannt become
>>a scientist. But is this assumption correct ? I dont think so. 
>>
>>Few months ago there was a report in Scientific American on a study on
>>Vietamese refugees. The group under study came to the US in the 60's
>>with literally nothing but their clothes. their parents were uneducated
>>They settled in the Bronx, NY, and their children studied in the worst 
>>public schools, with blacks. It turned out that the children were 
>>ranked very high nationally in math and sciences. No affirmative action
>>were applied to them.
>>
>>Remember also that many successful ethnical groups in the US were 
>>discriminated against (like the Japanese Americans and other Asian groups)
>>in the past, and they reached high level of achievement without 
>>any affirmative action benefits. 
>
>Before you further promulgate the "model minority" myth, you should note
>that the most successful post-'60s Asian-American immigrants were already
>from the professional and academic classes.  

Not in the story from Scientific American. Certainly it was not the
conclusion of the sociologists who studied them.

Jews were either prohibited from or allowed in restricted number from 
univeristies in Europe. Some Ivy Leage banned them in the US (e.g. Yale). 
Most Jewish immigrants to the US were merchants in their country of origion, 
because that was almost the only thing they were allowed to do. 
They never had affirmative action working in their favor.

>---
>Andrew Chin    Dept. of Math.    Texas A&M U.    College Station, TX 77843
>achin@math.tamu.edu   Probably not TAMU's exact opinions.   (409) 845-0261
>                * Fighting racism is not a special interest *
>

Dov
From: David.Koert@CoE.Drexel.EDU (Dave Koert)
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
Subject: Re: Hiring quotas and faculty positions (Repost #2)
Date: 14 Sep 92 15:43:50 GMT
Organization: Drexel University
X-Xxmessage-Id: <A6DA2DC96E0114E4@n1-20-228-hess-lab.coe.drexel.edu>
X-Xxdate: Mon, 14 Sep 92 11:53:45 GMT
X-Useragent: Nuntius v1.1.1d9

In article <13SEP199215172372@jetson.uh.edu> Schieber, schieber@jetson.uh.edu
writes:
>In article <1992Sep13.131845.20030@tc.cornell.edu>, 
>bai@msiadmin.cit.cornell.edu (Dov Bai-MSI Visitor) writes...
>>In article <12SEP199219100161@vtcc1.cc.vt.edu> merolajs@vtcc1.cc.vt.edu 
>(JOSEPH S. MEROLA DEPT OF CHEMISTRY VPI&SU) writes:
>>>
>>>Perhaps we now come to the crux of the discussion.  What 
>>>exactly do you see as the function of the university professor?
>> 
>>Teacher, researcher, various professional committees at the 
>>department.
>> 
>>>If the only thing I had to do in my position
>>>were to supervise research and teach a few classes, then my
>>>job would be a snap. 
>> 
>>You must be kidding here. Teachers at community colleges teach
>>almost 100% of their time. Researchers at national laboratories
>>and various research professors at universities do research close
>>to 100% of their time and many of them would tell you they wish
>>the day would be 30 hours so they finish their projects. Why
>>do you say that the above duties are a snap to do ? 
>
>YOU must be kidding.  Most research professor only have about
>30% of their time to devote to research.  The rest is writing
>grant proposals, sitting on committees, supervising students, teaching,
>refereeing publications, etc. Professors often wax poetic about how
>nice it would be to spend the first 40 hours in the week doing 
>research instead of the remaining 20.  I pine for the days
>of a postdoc or late graduate student just teaching and doing
>research.

Does the recent 8 hours per week of reading sci.research.carreers
postings and writing large numbers picayune rebuttals take a significant
cut out of those "remaining 20" ? :-)



dave koert, research assist. prof.       | "You can't excuse your own abuse
combustion & fuels group, hess labs      |  because someone caused you pain."
Mechanical Eng. Dept. (MEM), Drexel Univ.|   from the play, AND I STILL RISE
David.Koert@CoE.Drexel.EDU               |         by Mya Angelo
From: len@schur.math.nwu.edu (Len Evens)
Subject: Re: Hiring quotas and faculty positions (Repost #2)
Organization: Dept of Math, Northwestern Univ
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1992 15:05:07 GMT

In article <1992Sep12.165259.26019@tc.cornell.edu> bai@msiadmin.cit.cornell.edu (Dov Bai-MSI Visitor) writes:
>In article <1992Sep12.155055.22185@news.acns.nwu.edu> len@schur.math.nwu.edu (Len Evens) writes:
>>In article <11SEP199209542037@vtcc1.cc.vt.edu> merolajs@vtcc1.cc.vt.edu (JOSEPH S. MEROLA DEPT OF CHEMISTRY VPI&SU) writes:
>
>>Of course, they are usually
>>very enthusiastic about exceptional candidates, but they may be even more
>>enthusiastic in the case of women.
>
>This sentence is typical of the attitude that I find so disturbing
>in senior faculty members. They dont say: we would like to be 
>gender-neutral in our hiring practices, but unfortunately 
>affirmative-action directives instruct us otherwise. Rather, they
>sound so excited and enthusiastic, that  you cannt miss their social
>agenda.
>

I think the poster finds my attitude disturbing since he reads it through
a filter expecting me to say something I didn't say.   What I suggested
was the _possibility_ that our deans might in some circumstances work harder
to induce an extremely well qualified woman to come to our university than a
similarly well qualified white male.   What I am talking about is candidates
for whom we would be in vigorous competition with other institutions.
Since we also have a hard time talking them into hiring men or
women about whom they have doubts, I think you can conclude at best that
our administrators have given us a not very subtle signal that they
want to hire very highly qualified women.  To conclude from this that
our administrators encourage us to hire women over men at all levels of
accomplishment is faulty reasoning.  The following would be an equally
tenable conclusion.  Administrators are generally biased against women
candidates, but are sensitive to criticism about it.  Hence, whenever
a candidate arises who is superior by any conceivable criterion, and
that candidate is a woman, they will work hard to attract that candidate
to their particular institution.  I don't claim to know what is in the mind
of our particular administrators, but I think the poster should credit us
with enough intelligence to be able to make subtle distinctions.  

By the way, I admit freely to the following social agenda.   I think
that when in balance two candidates seem equally qualified (according
to what seem relevant criteria), women or members of
discriminated against groups should be given preference.  My reasons for 
this agenda are partly selfish.   I have a wife and children who
in their areas are very well qualified.  I can see that my wife and
daughters still face discrimination.  A little effort to restore
the balance is called for.   However, any time I see a candidate
being pushed primarily for reasons of race or gender I will oppose
it.  (My son needs a little justice too.)

Leonard Evens      len@math.nwu.edu      708-491-5537
Dept. of Mathematics, Northwestern Univ., Evanston, IL 60208
Xref: sparky sci.research.careers:1044 soc.culture.canada:6520
From: godfrey@sscvx1.ssc.gov (LAURENCE GODFREY)
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers,soc.culture.canada
Subject: Re: News of Fabrikant - 3
Date: 12 Sep 92 16:33:00 GMT
Organization: Superconducting Super Collider Laboratory
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.4-b1

In article <11SEP199209420925@sscvx1.ssc.gov>, godfrey@sscvx1.ssc.gov (LAURENCE GODFREY) writes...
>In article <1992Sep11.050819.19929@philmtl.philips.ca>, ray@philmtl.philips.ca (Ray Dunn)         writes...
>>In referenced article, masticol@cadenza.rutgers.edu (Steve Masticola) writes:
>>>ray@philmtl.philips.ca (Ray Dunn) writes:
>>>[ Fabrikant:]
>>>>"Violence is not being produced by itself out of nothing.  This particular
>>>>act of violence was carefully planned and nurtured and I have documents for
>>>>that."
>>>That makes it first-degree murder. It appears that the man is trying,
>>>successfully, to self-destruct.
>> 
>>He is probably trying to say that *others* planned and nurtured the
>>violence by, essentially, not letting him have his own way even when he
>>threatened violence.
>> 
>Maybee he was driven by despair to violence, in the face if intransigence and
>stubbornness and dishonesty by the university faculty.  Having fought with
>your laughable National Research Council over similar issues, I quite
>understand how he probably felt.
> 
>I have yet to see ANY discussion of the substance of his complaints on this network
> 

Does anyone out there know exactly what drove Fabrikant to these murders,
the exact nature of his disputes with Concordia, does anyone have copies
of the emails he sent out all around Canada???

Laurence