From: cramer@optilink.UUCP (Clayton Cramer)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,ca.politics,ba.politics
Subject: Re: Stereotyping
Date: 14 Aug 92 20:46:59 GMT
Organization: Optilink Corporation, Petaluma, CA

In article <ohbhp7s@fido.asd.sgi.com>, dauber@sgi.com (Jeff Dauber) writes:
> In article <11727@optilink.UUCP> cramer@optilink.UUCP (Clayton Cramer) writes:
# #I can see the conversation: "I know a group of people march in 
# #parades where they wear the most outrageous outfits, things that 
# #offend the vast majority of Americans.  They spend much of their 
# #time complaining about the unfairness of a society that doesn't 
# #approve of these outrageous displays that they put on in public.
# 
# Those outrageous displays are in a gay pride parade.  Not in the Macy's
# Thanksgiving day parade, not in the St. Patrick's Day parade, but the 
# gay pride parade, where we dress up in our party clothes and go celebrate.

Yup.  And you wonder why straight society is offended.

# #"They complain about our society stereotyping them as sadomasochists, 
# #effeminate cross-dressers, and child molesters, in spite of the 
# #gay parades in which groups like Dykes on Bikes participate, men 
# #dress up in drag, men dress up in S&M attire, and groups such as 
# #the North American Man-Boy Love Association are welcome.
# 
# two points:
# 
# 1. NAMBLA has not ever been given anything but a cold reception in these
# parades.

How about giving them the boot out?

# 2. I dress up in leather to go to the gay pride parade.  I do not go in
# drag, I am not effeminate, I am not a child molester, I do not dress like
# a cowboy, or a construction worker, or a heterosexual.  The reason that
# these are stereotypes is that you attributing characteristics of a few
# homosexuals to all homosexuals.

Great.  You fill one stereotype; other gays fill the other stereotypes.
Not smart, if the stereotypes are false and cause problems.

# #"They complain about our society stereotyping them as sex obssessed,
# #but many of their discussions in a public forum revolve around 
# #pornographic movie 'stars' and casual sex with strangers.
# 
# Not true.  Not at all in fact.  If I had to say what the most common thing
# to happen on soc.motss, I would say that it would have to be endless
# strings of puns.  We also talk about opera, television, movies, and
# so on.  You only read the ones which interest you, which are the ones
# concerning sex.

Shall I start posting some of the garbage that appears in soc.motss
on a regular basis?  Say, Le JoJo?

# #"They insist that they don't support molestation, and yet a large
# #fraction of the group will engage in semantic games to show that 
# #adults having sex with kids as young as eight isn't 'molestation' 
# #but 'love.'
# 
# You are making this up.

I've already posted materials showing this sort of semantic gamesmanship
about "molestation."

# #"In spite of massive public education efforts aimed at the general
# #population, and this group, unsafe sex practices remain a major
# #problem, even though the consequences are a painful and long
# #drawn-out death.
# 
# Unsafe sex is much more common amongst heterosexuals than it is amongst
# homosexuals.  Why do you only focus on homosexuals.

Because that's the group that should have learned, and that has the
most to worry about from unsafe sex, because of the especially
risky nature of promiscuous sex, and anal sex.
 
# #The psychiatrist puffs on his pipe, and leans over: "Tell me, 
# #Clayton, how long have you let what a group insists on portraying 
# #themselves as influence your perception of them?"
# #
# #Soc.motss, and the gay parades, are the equivalent of a parade
# #in which black men are all eating watermelon, killing, raping,
# #and robbing people, or pretending to be Stephen Fetchit.
# 
# Only through they eyes of a hateful person.

You admit that the stereotypes are played up fully in parades,
and then complain about prejudice.  What's wrong?

# #Homosexuals hate stereotyping.  So why is so much energy put into
# #reinforcing those stereotypes?  Is it because those stereotypes
# #reflect reality for some significant fraction of homosexuals?
# 
# By your logic, african americans should not eat watermelon, because 
# this supports stereotypes.  Jews should not be bankers because it supports
# a stereotype.  

I certainly would argue that blacks marching in a parade shouldn't
be organized in platoons of smiling blacks, all eating watermelon.
I would certainly argue that Jews marching in a parade shouldn't
be dressed like the character Faigan from _Oliver Twist_.

# You are not allowing anyone any lattitude to be what they want.  Gay

Sure I am.  But you want the freedom to engage in stereotypical 
behavior on a large and public basis, then don't want others to
have the freedom to respond to being offended by that public
behavior.  You better let us have the freedom to not associate,
or you better clean up your act.  One or the other.

# culture has many icons and many traditions which are different from
# mainstream heterosexual culture.  A gay man dressing up in leather pants
# and going to the gay pride parade is no different from a irishman wearing
# green on St Patricks Day.  The only difference is that you feel that
# wearing leather is "wrong" while wearing green is acceptable.
# 
# FWA

No, the comparison would be if an Irishman engaged in behavior that
appeared to glorify the actions of the Irish Republican Army.  Yes,
I know that the Sinn Fein marches in St. Patrick's Day parades 
back East, and it horrifies, disgusts, and angers me.
-- 
Clayton E. Cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer  My opinions, all mine!
I can make myself popular on USENET again -- all I have to say is that I'm not 
disturbed by the support for North American Man-Boy Love Association in the 
homosexual community.  Being popular at a child's expense isn't worth it.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc