From: farkas@qual.Eng.Sun.COM (Frank Farkas)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Mormons are not Christians
Date: 12 Oct 92 15:08:19 GMT
Reply-To: farkas@qual.Eng.Sun.COM
Organization: Sun Microsystems
NNTP-Posting-Host: qual



>> Well, do you think that you know more about what I believe in then you!

>I couldn't possibly answer yes to that.

Thank you for the only honest answer which you could give.

>> Why is it that I have great difficulty remembering when you asked any LDS
>> members what they believe in? Why is it that I only remember you telling
>> us what we believe in? 

>Do you recall my posting what your prophets taught? It matters little
>to me what you believe. The important part is what the prophets(LDS)
>taught. The importance bearing on their displacement of christianity
>by revelation. When the revelation is shown to be in error, the 
>standard LDS response is they were speaking as men, and not prophets:-)

Thank you for your second honest response, that is that you don't care at
all what I or any other LDS thinks. Barry cares only about his interpretations
and what he thinks. I wonder where I got the idea that anti-mormons are
closed minded.

>> Your memory is very short. Let me refresh it. This is what you said:
>> 
>> "The doctrine of Grace+plus Works leaves a believer in a state of
>> constant guilt."
>> 
>> You accused my church of keeping its members in constant fear. What I

>Uhh. Wrong premise again. I didn't say fear, nor did I imply fear.

One of the defination of guilt according to the Webster's Third New International
Dictionary is, "state of deserving punishment".

>> am telling you is that the LDS church has one of the most positive
>> doctrines and approach to help people. The teaching and the doctrines lift 
>> us up, and never dump us in the sewer. We have "man's deprivity" doctrine.
>> Such concepts are strange to us.

>Sure, if you block out all the negative and cling only to the
>positive, you have a sort of fairytale existance:-)

The gospel according to Barry -:). This the the gospel according to apostle Paul:

Romans 8:14-16
==============
"For as many as led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God."

"For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have 
received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father."

"The Spirit itself bewareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children
of God:"

Guess which gospel I am going to accept!

>> It was about putting fear and guilt on the members of the mentioned
>> denominations. This was the same accusition you raised against the 
>> LDS church. 

>Wrong premise again. Now you Are connecting fear with guilt. We are
>not connecting here my friend. The door is open for Guilt(the type of
>guilt used in, "have I done enough work, maybe I need to do more" type
>where one never knows. Then again, in a fairytale life it probably
>never comes to mind. I was talking about real people with real life
>quilts(negative and positive).

See above for dictionary defination of guilt.

>> Yes, we do teach our children. Every one does! Do we do a good job?
>> We could do better. One thing we we teach is free agency. We are very careful
>> not to deprive our children of their free agency. But, we could do better.

>But that's MIND CONTROL Frank. The same "mind control" the poster
>was talking about. I would call it teaching, but the poster called
>it "mind control", and you jumped on it as a springboard against
>the WELS. Methinks your comprehesion skills are drooping.

I jumped on it because the bottom line on that discussion was putting guilt
on the members of your church members. May be you should reread the article.
You agreed with the person, accept that you said that it really didn't
effected you at all.

>> At least you should learn that people who live in glass houses shouldn't
>> throw stones.

>Ah, but I built my house with double-pane thermal protection
>plexi-glass. I can throw bricks:-)

Excellent Barry!! Are you going to run for a political office? If not,
you really should. Excellent way of diffusing an uncomfortable situation
and giving a none answer, make a joke out of it. Great work, keep it up!
 
>> We don't teach either that one goes to hell because he/she don`t attend 
>> church on Sunday. You see, we don't believe that a person goes to hell
>> just because he/she is not a member of the LDS church. Even non-christians
>> won't end up in hell per our doctrines, only the sons of perditions.

>What happens if a Mormon doesn't go to church? Do they get lableld
>as Jack-Mormons? See, I do ask questions.
>Please, you're all hung up on this hell thing. I never once mentioned
>or implied hell. 
>And read that paragraph over again(the one you just wrote here). You
>jump from LDS "don't go to hell for not attending church" to non-
>members don't go to hell:-) Orrrr??(Tim Allen sound). Frank, are you
>a heavy substance abuser? Your points are very disconnected:-)

I don't call any one a "jack mormon". In fact in my 9 years in the church
I never heard that used against an inactive member. 

Barry, read the dictionary for the defination of the word "guilt". My 
conclusions are correct and reasonable from the things which you said.

>> Can you please tell us who you believe will go to hell? Since you
>> done your best to plaster the LDS with a mud canon, lets hear about
>> your believes. So, who do you believe will go to hell Berry?

>In your mind. Your premises were all bent-out-of-shape. there's
>that Hell thing again. Why does your mind immediately jump to
>Hell topics when they are not even implied? So much for the 
>positivity that can only come from being a Mormon.

Excellent!! Great work, good comeback, and a very good "get out of a difficult
situation". 

Why don't you just answer the question Barry? Are you affraid to expose your
beliefs to scrutiny? Is it easier to throw mud at other peoples beliefs then
to put your own beliefs out in the open.

Well, who do you think will go to hell to burn for all eternity??

With brotherly love,

		Frank