From: russ@wpg.com (Russell Lawrence)
Subject: Re: Fantasy vs. Ethics.  Was: Closure on sport hunting
Organization: WP Group
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1992 09:12:59 GMT


Russell Lawrence writes:
rl> You mentioned just the other day in article <15rin4INNbq7@agate.  
rl> berkeley.edu> that you believe all the statements that are in 
rl> your bible.  Since your bible states that entities like demons, 
rl> ghosts, spirits, and such, really do exist, it seems reasonable 
rl> to conclude that you also believe in the existence of these 
rl> spirit-forms.... 

From article <alayn7a@rpi.edu>, by vanetten@unix.cie.rpi.edu (John S. Van Etten):
jve> Russell, old friend, could you cite chapter and verse on this for an
jve> old atheist like me?  You see, the parts of the bible I read have
jve> never mentioned demons, and I'm skeptical about this, although I admit
jve> that I haven't read any of it in a *long* time.
jve> ...
jve> Spirits are mentioned, but I've still never seen anything on demons.
jve> Although I'm sure you're going to be a pal and cite something. ;-)

Demons are a common theme in both the old and new testaments in 
spite of the allegedly monotheistic foundation of both 
compilations.  I'm sure that Mike Linan can provide more 
references but the following pointers will get you started: 

Lev17:7, Dt32:17, Ps106:37, Mt8:29, Mk1:24 3:11 5:7, Lk4:34,41 8:30
Acts19:15, Jas2:19, 1-Cor10:20, and Rev9:20.

In particular, read Mark 5 in which Jesus casts out the "Legion" 
of demons and sends it/them into a nearby herd of swine, thereby 
curing a "possessed" human individual of physical and mental disease.  
The passage is significant, imho, because it clearly treats 
souls/spirits/demons (aka minds) as extrinsic properties, rather than 
intrinsic properties, of human and animal beings.  

Given Mike's accusation that I've misrepresented his views on
spirit-life, I'll let him explain how/why he believes in the literal 
accuracy of this passage. 

rl> You've been claiming that I'm making you look silly by commenting 
rl> on your credulity re: ghosts, goblins, and so on.  Yet, you 
rl> yourself continue to cite good and evil spirits as the primary 
rl> determinants of ethical decisions.  

jve> Er, no, you're *trying* to make Mike look silly.  I'm not so sure
jve> you're being effective.  Although you are indeed making *someone* look
jve> silly. ;-)

No, I'm not trying to make Mike look silly.  I'm trying to understand
how/why he has so little respect for the concept of human and animal
rights.   

rl> Incidently, you've made it clear that you don't respect the 
rl> concept of animal rights, but you've been rather secretive in 
rl> addressing my allegation that you don't have much respect for 
rl> human rights either, but instead pay consistent hommage to 
rl> "god's rights", as interpreted by Mike Linan.  If you have the 
rl> courage to do so, please address the question that I've posed 
rl> several times previously: 
rl> 
rl> If "god" were to command you to kill a group of men, women, and 
rl> children, while refusing to explain his reasons, would you obey 
rl> his command?  Or, would you disobey?

jve> Does this serve any more purpose than your Space Invaders question?
jve> What makes you think that when "God" tells Mike to kill these people
jve> that "God" would not have a valid reason for doing so, such as these
jve> "men, women, and children" are all ax-murderers, in which case Mike
jve> might be justified in following "God's" orders?

Perhaps.  On the other hand, let's suppose that these men, women, 
and children were innocent human beings, and that "god" was 
merely seeking to develop Mike Linan's faith, having decided that 
the victims' lives were no longer productive in terms of his own 
plans.  

In such a case, would the killing be justifiable, given the 
commandment of "god"?  Or conversely, would it be more accurate 
to say that "god" and Mike would be guilty of violating the 
rights of these innocent people and unjustly depriving them of 
their lives?  

In both the "space invaders" question and the "god" question, I
expect you and/or Mike to explain how/why it's reasonable to
judge an action by examining the "status" of the perpetrator 
rather than analyzing the practical consequences of the action
on the affected individuals.  

Mike Linan wrote:
ml> Oh and don't forget I waiting for you to prove that I told you I
ml> believe in goblins.  

rl> I'm waiting for you to explain the difference between demons and
rl> goblins.

jve> And I'm still waiting for you to show that Mike said he believes 
jve> in *either* of them.  Chapter and verse, Russell.  That will 
jve> clear it up (at least for me).  We all know that Mike never 
jve> *explicitly* said he believes in either.  

No, everyone doesn't know that, unless Mike sent everybody carbon 
copies of the dozens of email messages that have passed back and 
forth between us over the past few months.  In any case, Mike 
can clear up the matter easily enough by simply telling us his 
opinion.   

Meanwhile, please explain something to me about logic.  If the 
bible says that demons exist, and a man tells us that he truly 
believes everything the bible says, would it be possible for him 
to disbelieve in the existence of demons?  

-- 
Russell Lawrence, WP Group, New Orleans (504) 443-5000
russ@wpg.com   uunet!wpg!russ