HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: alpinist@eskimo.celestial.com (David Butler)
Subject: Re: government still at large (was Re: FDA still at large)
Organization: =>ESKIMO NORTH (206) 367-3837 SEATTLE, WA.<=
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 17:52:34 GMT

In article <857@nazgul.UUCP> bright@nazgul.UUCP (Walter Bright) writes:
>In article <1992Jul25.191500.4115@eskimo.celestial.com> kurt@eskimo.celestial.com (Kurt Cockrum) writes:
>/In article <1992Jul24.121817.14027@linus.mitre.org> lewis@aera8700.mitre.org (Keith Lewis) writes:
>/>Assuming
>/>the government does its job in preventing force and fraud, this idea doesn't
>/>frighten me a bit!  Let them get wealth; they will mostly just re-invest
>/>that wealth in bigger and better enterprises.  What's the problem?
>/More leap of faith.

>Not exactly a leap of faith. I know lots of rich people (> 1 million in
>assets). My broker knows lots more. What rich people do with their money
>is *invest* it. I don't know a single one who keeps it as gold bars in
>a spare bedroom.

>What do you think rich people do with their money? The ones who spend it all
>on toys usually don't stay rich very long.

 Well, it sure as heck doesn't 'trickle down' to the populace.  Over the past
Decade the richest 10% of the nation went from owning a little less than 1/4
of the nations wealth to over 1/3.  That means the majority got poorer.
When somebody owns enough money to represent consumption of more than they
could produce in 100 lifetimes (anybody worth >1 mil) then that means 
thousands of people must produce more than they can consume (the working
poor) in order to support that person.  Letting the rich get richer only
sends this country barrelling down the road to 3rd worldism and creates a
class society of the haves and have nots.
 Hey lets let people be well off.  Lets reward them for individual incentive,
but how about putting some limits on the upper end (where they've got way
more than they need anyway) and raise and maintain a decent standard of
living for everyone.

-- 
****************************************************************************
* Dave                          *               The Alpinist               *
* alpinist@eskimo.celestial.com *            DARE to be stoopid!           *
****************************************************************************
Newsgroups: pnw.general
From: alpinist@eskimo.celestial.com (David Butler)
Subject: Re: pandhandlers
Organization: =>ESKIMO NORTH (206) 367-3837 SEATTLE, WA.<=
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 18:44:26 GMT

In article <16390001@b-mrda.ca.boeing.com> miller@b-mrda.ca.boeing.com (Mark Miller) writes:
>monaghan@carson.u.washington.edu (Tracy Monaghan) writes:

>[...missive about non-productive members of society deleted for brevity...]

>> Three causes for homelessnes:
>>     1)  Substance abuse and inadequate treatment facilities available
>>     2)  Mental illness and inadequate treatment facilities available
>>     3)  Job loss and inadequate re-training facilities available


>> Do you see a pattern here?


>Not really, Tracy. Having worked with several people in the first and third
>category through Christian ministries, it has become obvious that many folks
>would rather stay on the street than accept the responsibilities that go along
>with being a "responsible citizen". (For the purposes of this discussion, let's
>say that a "responsible citizen" will not beat spouse or child, will attempt to
>hold a job, etc., etc.) No treatment in the world, even if provided free, will
>be effective to those who are too comfortable with chaos to change.

     If this is the definition of people who "choose" to be on the
streets then perhaps nobody is really choosing to be there at all.
Just because a person doesn't accept what you consider how they have
to act or what they have to do to get off the street doesn't mean that
they choose to be there.  Maybe they hate living on the street, but they
hate what you would force them to do and become even more.  You say no
treatment in the world will help them?  How many different approaches have
you seen tried?



-- 
****************************************************************************
* Dave                          *               The Alpinist               *
* alpinist@eskimo.celestial.com *            DARE to be stoopid!           *
****************************************************************************
From: eris@tc.fluke.COM (Chris Beckmeyer)
Newsgroups: pnw.general
Subject: Re: pandhandlers
Date: 28 Jul 92 21:21:19 GMT
Article-I.D.: tc.1992Jul28.212119.19881
Organization: ???

In article <1992Jul27.231433.4639@hpcvca.cv.hp.com> scott@hpcvccl.cv.hp.com (Scott Linn) writes:
>monaghan@carson.u.washington.edu (Tracy Monaghan) writes:
>: 
>: Three causes for homelessnes:
>:     1)  Substance abuse and inadequate treatment facilities available
>:     2)  Mental illness and inadequate treatment facilities available
>:     3)  Job loss and inadequate re-training facilities available
>
>      4)  The person likes to live on the street (there are quite a few of
>          these).

       5)  Attempting to "beat the system" is far more interesting and challeng-           ing than working in a 7-eleven.
       
       if i remember correctly, about 15 years ago, a fellow in NY ran a school        for panhandling!  basically an acting school.  he charged $300.00 for the
       week-long course and most of his graduates made that back the first day.

       7 out of 7 attempts on the part of my SO, a partner and another close
       associate to employ people who "will work for food" failed. in all 7
       cases transportation was offered and if the person really preferred 
       cash instead of food, that wasn't a problem either.  it was the "work"
       part that blew it. what it came down to was simply "if i go to work for
       you i'll miss the chance to get $$$ for nothing by staying here." 
       panhandling itself is a legit job.  its popularity comes and goes. it
       was quite common in the 60s, maybe even more so than now. true, some
       practioners do so because they are unable to do otherwise, but i suspect        that they constitute a very small percentage of the panhandling popula-
       tion.
From: miller@b-mrda.ca.boeing.com (Mark Miller)
Newsgroups: pnw.general
Subject: Re: pandhandlers
Date: 28 Jul 92 15:24:25 GMT
Article-I.D.: b-mrda.16390001
Organization: Boeing Commercial Airplanes MR&D

monaghan@carson.u.washington.edu (Tracy Monaghan) writes:

[...missive about non-productive members of society deleted for brevity...]

> Three causes for homelessnes:
>     1)  Substance abuse and inadequate treatment facilities available
>     2)  Mental illness and inadequate treatment facilities available
>     3)  Job loss and inadequate re-training facilities available
> 
> 
> Do you see a pattern here?
> ----------

Not really, Tracy. Having worked with several people in the first and third
category through Christian ministries, it has become obvious that many folks
would rather stay on the street than accept the responsibilities that go along
with being a "responsible citizen". (For the purposes of this discussion, let's
say that a "responsible citizen" will not beat spouse or child, will attempt to
hold a job, etc., etc.) No treatment in the world, even if provided free, will
be effective to those who are too comfortable with chaos to change.

This is not to say that *all* people on the streets are there by choice. Many
take advantage of what is offered and get a new lifestyle. I was surprised
by the number who turn away help for reasons known only to them.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mark R. Miller                     | 
Boeing Commercial Airplane Company | 
Seattle, WA                        | 
Internet: miller@b-mrda.boeing.com | 
Voicenet: (206) 237-0960           |  
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Opinions expressed here do not necessarily reflect those of my employer.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: das@voodoo.boeing.com (Deb Schwartz)
Newsgroups: pnw.general
Subject: Re: Food from Seattle to Provo
Date: 28 Jul 92 16:16:34 GMT
Distribution: pnw
Organization: Boeing Graphics project, Bellevue WA

In article <2876@voodoo.UUCP> das@voodoo.boeing.com (Deb Schwartz) writes:
>Saturday, I'm driving from Seattle to Provo Utah.  My route is:  I-5 from
                                                                  ^^^ 
 Ooop!  Make that I-90 from Seattle to Ellensburg.

>Seattle to Ellensburg, I-82 from Ellensburg to Oregon (Pendleton?), then
>I-84 to Ogden, Utah, then I-15/SR 89 to Provo.
>
>Can anyone recommend vegetarian-friendly restaurants along the way?  They
>don't necessarily have to be all vegetarian, but it would be really nice
>to find some places to eat at along the way that have more extensive ideas
>about vegetarian food than grilled cheese sandwiches and iceberg lettuce
>salads.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Debbie Schwartz // das@voodoo.boeing.com  // or uunet!bcstec!voodoo!das
From: omaha@eisley.akita.com (Omaha Sternberg)
Newsgroups: pnw.general
Subject: the frame of Judi Barr...2
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 92 17:40:47 PDT
Organization: Mos Eisley Spaceport BBS

                             Oh no!!








                         He found out!!!

-
omaha@eisley.akita.com
...!polari!eisley!omaha
...!seanews!eisley!omaha
                +++ Mos Eisley Spaceport BBS   Seattle, WA +++
From: monaghan@carson.u.washington.edu (Tracy Monaghan)
Newsgroups: pnw.general
Subject: Re: pandhandlers
Date: 28 Jul 92 22:33:41 GMT
Article-I.D.: u.1992Jul28.223341.8062
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle

In article <1992Jul28.212119.19881@tc.fluke.COM> eris@tc.fluke.COM (Chris Beckmeyer) writes:
[preliminary stuff deleted]
>       panhandling itself is a legit job.  its popularity comes and goes. it

So we could 'clean up' the homeless problem by jailing these panhandlers
for tax evasion?
From: kurt@eskimo.celestial.com (Kurt Cockrum)
Newsgroups: pnw.general
Subject: Re: Seattle Newspapers
Date: 25 Jul 92 17:49:33 GMT
Article-I.D.: eskimo.1992Jul25.174933.2358
Organization: >>> Eskimo North (206)-FOR-EVER <<<

In article <62701@cup.portal.com> ts@cup.portal.com (Tim W Smith) writes:
>Moving day is fast approaching, and thus I will soon have to make that
>important decision: [...]
[...important decisions deleted...]
>Does anyone care to offer opinions or suggestions?
[...]
Is our leg being pulled or what? :)
-- 
kurt@grogatch.celestial.com (Kurt Cockrum)
From: trohan@eskimo.celestial.com (Tom Rohan)
Newsgroups: pnw.general
Subject: Marijuana Initiative Update
Date: 30 Jul 92 06:41:47 GMT
Organization: <<< ESKIMO NORTH (206)-FOR-EVER >>>

For all of you who were following the attempt to get the Marijuana
Initiative on the November ballot, the following is a letter from the
Washington Citizens for Drug Policy Reform (WCDPR).


*******************************************************************
WASHINGTON CITIZENS for DRUG POLICY REFORM
==================================================================
                       July 24, 1992


Dear Supporter,

   I would like to take this opportunity to thank you for your help in
the recent signature gathering campaign to place marijuana (hemp)
legalization on the ballot in Washington State.  Unfortunately, this
three month effort netted just under half the required 150,001 voter
signatures by the time the deadline arrived on July 2, 1992.

   Despite this disappointment, we have been overwhelmed by the numbers
of people who have called or written to urge that we keep up the fight
to end the insane laws which brand marijuana smokers as criminals and
deny everyone the economic benefits of a thriving domestic hemp
industry.

   Your efforts on behalf of Initiative 576 during the past few months
have made marijuana legalization a respectable topic of public debate as
more and more of us brave the "zero tolerance" drug hysteria that has
kept us underground and silent for so long.  Now that we are "out of the
closet", we must continue to make our voices heard.

   A general meeting has been scheduled for this Thursday, July 30th,
from 6:30 - 9:00 p.m. at the Carpenter's Center Building Auditorium,
2512 2nd Avenur, Seattle.  The building is located between Wall & Vine
Sts. and there is free parking in the adjacent lot.  I apologize for the
short notice but it is extremely important that we come to agreement on
a unified approach toward changes in marijuana laws in the coming
months.  In addition to hammering out a political strategy at the
meeting, we will be forming a newspaper staff, planning fund raising
projects, and electing a committee to write the WCDPR by-laws.  There
will also be hemp products, t-shirts, buttons and bumperstickers on sale
to benefit our depleted bank account.

   We are rapidly succeeding in making marijuana legalization a
mainstream issue; the Initiative 576 campaign encouraged thousands of
citizens to demand an end to repressive hemp prohibition laws.  I hope
you can join us on Thursday, July 30th as we continue the fight.


                     Hal Nelson
                     Director

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
        P.O. Box 1614, Renton, WA 98057 (206) 226-5672
Newsgroups: pnw.general
From: josh@Happy-Man.com (Joshua_Putnam)
Subject: Re: government still at large (was Re: FDA still at large)
Reply-To: Joshua_Putnam@happy-man.com
Organization: Happy Man Corp., Vashon Island, WA 98070-7399
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 23:22:02 GMT

In <1992Jul29.183815.9874@eskimo.celestial.com> alpinist@eskimo.celestial.com (David Butler) writes:

>>I don't have a reference for the total value of the nation's wealth
>>over the last decade, so I'll pose this as a question:  did the bottom
>>90% get poorer, or did the value of the nation's assets increase less
>>than 15% over ten years?

>    The 'value' of the nations assets has nothing to do with it.  It is
>the quantity of the nations production that makes the difference.

You are the one who spoke in terms of the ownership of wealth.  How do
you intend to measure the distribution of wealth without referring to
the value of the assets that make up this wealth?

>  If the
>poorer 90% of the nation has gone from owning 3/4 to 2/3 of the nations
>wealth, it doesn't matter if the value of that wealth doubled, tripled, or
>quadrupled.  

Except that it determines whether the living standard of this bottom
90% increased, decreased, or remained the same.  If I have a choice
between 3/4 of 1000 loaves of bread and 2/3 of 2000 loaves of bread,
do you really believe I am better off with 750 loaves than with 1,333
loaves?

>The majority of people still have lost a large percentage of
>the goods and services in this country which is what the value represents.

So far we are in perfect agreement: the bottom 90% of the population
have a smaller share of the pie than in 1981 when Reagan took office.
But it puzzles me that you consider the size of the pie irrelevant.
If the size of the pie, the number of loaves of bread, the total
wealth in the country, the value of the nation's assets, or however
you want to quantify wealth, increased by 15% or more, the 90% still
have more than they did before.

>Production as a whole hasn't increased in this country.  Possibly the
>opposite.

Strange -- do you have any statistics demonstrating this declining GNP
or GDP?  Apart from the slow growth during the Bush administration,
the last decade has seen enormous economic growth.  That's why I find
it hard to believe that the value of the nation's assets has increased
less than 15% over the last decade.  

What support do you have for this unlikely claim?
-- 
 Joshua_Putnam@happy-man.com    Happy Man Corp.  206/463-9399 x102
 4410 SW Pt. Robinson Rd., Vashon Island, WA  98070-7399  fax x108
 We publish SOLID VALUE for the intelligent investor.  NextMail OK
Info free; sample $20: Send POSTAL addr: Solid-Value@happy-man.com
From: davidb@zeus.ce.washington.edu (David W. Barts)
Newsgroups: pnw.general
Subject: Re: pandhandlers
Summary: duh!
Date: 30 Jul 92 14:08:39 GMT
Article-I.D.: u.1992Jul30.140839.7908
Organization: University of Washington

In article <1992Jul30.034728.21564@u.washington.edu>, davidb@zeus.ce.washington.edu (David W. Barts) writes:
> Likewise, I suppose the late Herr Honecker could have said that those
                          ^^^^  He's still alive (oops).

--
David Barts  N5JRN                      UW Civil Engineering, FX-10
davidb@ce.washington.edu                Seattle, WA  98195
Newsgroups: pnw.general
From: davidst@microsoft.com (David Steckler)
Subject: The Right to Keep and Drive Cars
Date: 24 Jul 92 14:50:48 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corporation

	(U DISTRICT) - Seattle Police officers shot and killed the driver of
a car outside Husky stadium. The victim is identified as a 20-year-old college
student...who authorities say worked at the stadium. Police spokesman Rick Ba
says the man peeled out of the parking lot at a high rate of speed and swerving
erratically across many lanes of traffic...refused to pull over despite 
numerous police blockades, killing one officer as he went through one of the
blockades. The man then jumped the curb and headed straight for a group
of children playing t-ball at a local park at which point police officers
opened fire on the car, killing its driver. Investigators  say the driver
was upset over an illness and a failed romance. Law enforcemtent officials
say the officers involved in the shooting have been assigned to desk duty
while the incident is reviewed.

Newsgroups: pnw.general
From: alpinist@eskimo.celestial.com (David Butler)
Subject: Re: Panhandling
Organization: =>ESKIMO NORTH (206) 367-3837 SEATTLE, WA.<=
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 18:25:51 GMT

In article <1992Jul28.155957.14213@u.washington.edu> davidb@zeus.ce.washington.edu (David W. Barts) writes:

>Regarding the use of money they panhandle, I'd *much* rather they get
>it by panhandling than by mugging people or burgling local shops
>and residences.

  Good Point!

-- 
****************************************************************************
* Dave                          *               The Alpinist               *
* alpinist@eskimo.celestial.com *            DARE to be stoopid!           *
****************************************************************************
From: mnb@voodoo.boeing.com (Mike Burr)
Newsgroups: pnw.general
Subject: Re: government still at large (was Re: FDA still at large)
Date: 30 Jul 92 19:32:41 GMT
Organization: Boeing Graphics project, Bellevue WA

In article <1992Jul28.175234.3653@eskimo.celestial.com> alpinist@eskimo.celestial.com (David Butler) writes:
>
[Speaking of trickle down theory]

> Well, it sure as heck doesn't 'trickle down' to the populace.  Over the past
>Decade the richest 10% of the nation went from owning a little less than 1/4
>of the nations wealth to over 1/3.  That means the majority got poorer.

This logic is only correct if you assume that the amount of wealth in
the country is constant.  If additional wealth has been created (which it
has) then it is possible for the rich to get richer without anybody else
getting poorer (in absolute terms).  In fact it is possible for the rich
*and* poor to be wealthier (than they were a decade ago) and still make
your statistical claim.  The only thing your statistic says is that the
rich are gaining additional wealth faster than the poor - and that is 
not inconsistant with trickle down theory as long as the poor are gaining
some from the additional wealth of the rich.

>When somebody owns enough money to represent consumption of more than they
>could produce in 100 lifetimes (anybody worth >1 mil) then that means 
>thousands of people must produce more than they can consume (the working
>poor) in order to support that person.  

I don't understand your point, could you elaborate a little more.

>Letting the rich get richer only
>sends this country barrelling down the road to 3rd worldism and creates a
>class society of the haves and have nots.
> Hey lets let people be well off.  Lets reward them for individual incentive,
>but how about putting some limits on the upper end (where they've got way
>more than they need anyway) and raise and maintain a decent standard of
>living for everyone.

I agree that the shrinking of the middle class is not a good thing, I
just don't beleive that you can blame it on the rich getting richer and
"sucking up" all the wealth.  Don't you think that declining educational
performance, and the shrinking of traditional blue collar middle-class
jobs due to the country's transition out of the "industrial revolution"
and into the "information revolution" might be more to blame?


-- 
Michael Burr   mnb@voodoo.boeing.com  | Boeing Computer Services, Bellevue WA
Newsgroups: uw.test,pnw.test
From: tfh@polari.online.com
Subject: test
Organization: Seattle Online Public Access Unix (206) 328-4944
Distribution: pnw
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1992 05:27:42 GMT
From: Scotty@freemf.UUCP (Scotty)
Newsgroups: pnw.test
Subject: Test
Distribution: world
Date: 29 Jul 92 12:38:42 PDT
Organization: Not an Organization

ignore

-- Via DLG Pro v0.992

John (Scotty) Freeland  ---  scotty@freemf.eskimo.celestial.com
From: rene@hardy.u.washington.edu (Rene Magritte)
Newsgroups: pnw.forsale
Subject: TEST--DISREGARD
Summary: this is a test.
Keywords: don't bother reading
Date: 23 Jul 92 22:31:24 GMT
Article-I.D.: u.1992Jul23.223124.5577
Organization: University of Washington

test--sorry, folks.
From: andnick@milton.u.washington.edu (Nick Anderson)
Newsgroups: pnw.forsale
Subject: 66 Datsun Roadster parts
Date: 27 Jul 92 19:01:51 GMT
Article-I.D.: u.1992Jul27.190151.1016
Reply-To: andnick@u.washington.edu
Distribution: pnw
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle

My roommate has a 66 Datsun roadster parts car that he is interested in parting out, lots of good condition stuff, if you are interested, make an offer by calling (he's not on the net) (206) 754-7187 (Olympia) ask for Brent.
 
 
-thanks    andnick@milton.u.washinton.edu
Nick Anderson
Newsgroups: pnw.forsale
From: jcomer@milton.u.washington.edu (Justine Comer)
Subject: Stair Climber Exercise Machine for Sale
Reply-To: jcomer@u.washington.edu
Organization: University of Washington
Distribution: seattle
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1992 01:18:04 GMT

The machine is an Alpine Climber by CSA Aerobic Exersystems.  I have had
it about a year and a half and it is in very good condition.  The only
reason I want to sell it is to free up some space in my too small
apartment.  When it was new it cost $125.  I'd like to get $60 for it now
but am open to offers.

If you would like more information, send me email at jcomer@u.washington.edu.
From: mus@milton.u.washington.edu (Mustafa Patwa)
Newsgroups: pnw.forsale
Subject: Bike Roller for sale
Date: 22 Jul 92 15:23:23 GMT
Article-I.D.: u.1992Jul22.152323.20302
Reply-To: mus@u.washington.edu
Distribution: pnw
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle

FOR A FRIEND.  Don't respond via E-Mail.  Use the number below!

For sale:

New, hardly used bike roller.  Have you ever wanted to have the luxury
of riding your bike indoors during a terrible rainstorm? Well, I am
moving to a place where I can't use my roller.  I'll sell it to the first
person who calls for $225.00.  It also improves your cadence and stroke
I have been told.  This is the magnetic-tension roller type, supposed to
be the best kind around.  You don't attach your bike to it, so it won't
torque your back tire!

Contact Ted at (206) 525-5818 for more info.
From: gwatts@hpcvia.CV.HP.COM (gary_watts)
Newsgroups: pnw.forsale
Subject: Bianchi Road Bicycle
Date: 28 Jul 92 14:24:12 GMT
Article-I.D.: hpcvia.43630004
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Co., Corvallis, Oregon

Bianchi "Stelvio" road racing bicycle.  Columbus Tubing,
Campagnolo Drive train, Modulo Brakes, around 22lbs.  Frame
size is 54 cm (22"). $200.00 

Call (503) 750-3130 or preferably my pager (503)967-2585
I am in Corvallis during the week but live in Portland so
the bike can be seen in either locale.

Gary Watts
Hewlett-Packard
Corvallis, OR