From: sullivan@alw.nih.gov (Jim Sullivan)
Subject: Re: Restoring old houses
Keywords: Another opinion
Organization: National Inst. of Health, DCRT, CSL
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 14:08:12 GMT

In article <1202@stake.DaytonOH.NCR.COM>, emolinar@stake.DaytonOH.NCR.COM (Elizabeth Molinaro) writes:
|> 
|>         OK. So restoring old houses is not fun.  I know that.  I have never 
|>         lived in a house built before 1920, however, and I NEVER plan to
|>         do so...

This depends...

|> 
|>         ON the down side are all of the things people have been 
|>         discussing:
|> 
|>         That ugly, somewhat bottom of the stomach sick feeling that
|>         comes when you start a new project ... you know that you have
|>         never planned for the worst, and 9 times out of 10, the worst
|>         is lurking behind a wall, under the floor, in the wiring...

Before buying such a house, you need to determine whether these types
of problems are probable or not to begin with.  I bought a c1925 house
after determining that most problems of this nature were not going to
crop up.  A 3 hour look around plus a *trusted* inspector made sure
that the infrastructure of the house was sound (electrical, structural,
water, HVAC, etc...) and thus we knew what had to be done to get the
house up to our standards *before* we bought.  Of course, surprises
happen, but so far, they have meant more labor, not more money.

|> 
|>         Because of the above, every "easy" project turns out to be
|>         difficult, and the "difficult" ones end up requiring time,
|>         outside contractors, and $$$$$$

Plan, plan, plan.  If you don't know what the job will cost, a good inspector
can give you a good idea before you sign the contract.

|> 
|>         All old houses are money pits.  The movie of the same name
|>         was a HORROR movie, not a comedy: however, it aptly illustrates
|>         my life.  Plan on spending $1000 - 2000. a month for repairs:
|>         the $1000.00 if you can really wait that long (5 years) the
|>         $2000.00 if you can't or have to re-do a kitchen or bath.

I have also heard this type of story in 20 year-old homes.  One guy I know
bought a 10 year-old house and it literally began falling apart.  The
builder used cheap/non-code materials.  Pressed paper fasia which the gutters
were attached to is just one example.  An old (<1960) house is usually 
very solid and any problems have usually erupted and are visable or 
have been fixed.

|> 
|>         It is forced, hard labor.  Everyone quits asking you what you
|>         did for the weekend: they know.  You worked on your house.

Don't I know it.  But, our home is functional.  The gritty shower door
worked, so I had time to plan on a new one.  It is important to 
define which projects are a must-do and which can wait.  Must-do's 
cost bucks/time/frustration.  When buying a home, the must-do's should
be given a high negative score.

|> 
|>         ON the UP side:
|> 
|>         Moldings.  Gorgeous moldings.   

Yes, but I know of two hardware stores nearby that have mouldings which
are the same as in old homes.  Of course they cost a mint but they are
available.  Here in MD there is a place called Old House Parts where
they rip out parts from old houses and resell them to people restoring
old houses.  I'm currently thinking of buying some double-hung windows
which match the ones in my home to replace some jallocied(sp?) windows
in an addition.  The cost will be $60/window!  And they have the antique
glass as well!  Of course, they need a lot of paint scraping and work, 
we figure about 8 hours per window.  Still, you can't get these windows
anywhere else.  

|> 
|>         Wooden trim: gum, oak...also lovely, with rounded edges and 
|>         several layers of wood: ornate, yet somehow more restrained
|>         than the new stained pine jobbies that are so popular today.

In our house, they removed a lot of this stuff. Our stair railing was 
replaced with wrought-iron (yuck!).  It functions though and is one of
my waiting projects.
|> 
|>         Doors and rooms.  Do not underestimate the value of a house
|>         with lots of private space.  Open floor plans are noisy, and,
|>         well, open.  

I found some french doors that used to go between the living room
and dining room in a crawl space.  I'm restoring them this weekend.
This is another can-wait project that I decided to do now.  I guess the
previous owned wanted a more open floor.
|> 
|>         Older, established and sometimes prestigious neighborhoods and
|>         INTERESTING neighbors: how could the guy down the street not 
|>         be interesting when he's got that tool you need to borrow?!

Beware of "Historic" neighborhoods.  It is a different world in many
ways.  The up-side is that the neighborhood *cares*.  The downside is
that they care too much and have laws requiring a lot of paperwork
before doing anything that will change the house.  This Old House
had an episode where a guy had a home in New England somewhere and
had to go to a Town Meeting to get the exterior paint color approved.
I also had to go to one of these to get some big Mulberry trees cut down.
It is a bit nerving listening to other people discuss what they will
allow *you* to do on *your* property.  IMHO, many of these laws make the
neighborhoods look old and disheveled with big termite riddled trees, 
bushes out of control (a neighbor has a 20 foot tall azelea which is
very ugly) and weeds growing up through concrete.  I'm sure that the
origional owners 100 years ago would cry if they saw the state of
some of their homes...  You see, there are few laws requiring you
to keep the home up, just laws that make fixing it a two month wait.

|>         And finally: the thrill of just doing it.  I KNOW most people
|>         don't agree with me.  But I love it.  Yes, it takes work and
|>         time (sometimes I want to blow the damn monstrosity up) but
|>         "its mine" and I did it.  After all, tearing down walls is
|>         often good therapy after a bad day at work.  And painting 
|>         (always one of the last steps) can be downright glorious!

This is why "This Old House" is popular.  They show you everything but
the months and months of continuous work and sweat! :^)

|> 
|>         If you feel that you can respect the house in the morning: for
|>         it's lovely feel after you've seen its worst: by all means,
|>         go ahead.  But, you have to be willing to work and to learn
|>         and to CARE for your house.  You have been entrusted with a 
|>         lot of history.

Yes, learn about old homes.  I have seen some nice trim work simply
removed and discarded.  I've seen old brass fixtures tossed due to 
tarnish!  Also, know your hardware store and other "resourses".  You
will be in them quite a bit!  Find a place where you can have woodwork
and doors dipped to remove old paint.  Saves a lot of work.

|>         In closing one word of advice: the LESS the house has been
|>         "remodelled" the better off you'll be.  If you can find 
|>         something that has only been remodelled once, after the War,
|>         you're in better shape than if the house has gone through
|>         a re-do every 10 years or so.  The layers of work done poorly,
|>         and allowed to stay that way, are often what causes the most
|>         problems.

This depends.  My house has had 7 owners.  Some did very good/professional
work.   Others went out of their way to do it wrong.  Others destroyed
valuable trim while others bought antique fixtures.  I'm glad they upgraded
the electrical.  I'm glad they added new kitchen cabinets, though they need
replacing again.  I'm glad they refinished the hardwood floors, etc...
As long as the "remodelling" was done right, your better off since you
don't have to do it yourself.  It is always cheaper to buy a house
with a remodelled item than to buy it and refinish it yourself.  An old
house which hasn't been remodelled means a new bathroom, kitchen, plumbing,
electrical, carpet (I like wall-to-wall in the bedrooms), etc...  It is
very difficult to plug in a microwave and have it blow a *fuse* when you
also turn on a light.  And wait until you see the cotton insulated wiring! 

Also, look for fixes which were done wrong.  One house I saw had a 
very amature sanding of the hardwood floors (lots of waves in the wood).
My house has a deck which has the joists *parallel* to the header.  I've
shored it up and plan to replace it since it also about 20 years old anyway.
Previous owners can take something nice and make it need work.  Look out
for these...

|> 
|>         And, of course, do one room at a time.  Period.  It truly is all
|>         you can survive.

And plan, plan, plan *before* you buy the house!

Jim Sullivan 		[ The future ain't what it used to be ]
National Institutes of Health
Bethesda, MD 20892
Internet: sullivan@alw.nih.gov
Newsgroups: misc.consumers.house