From: lewchuk@cs.UAlberta.CA (Michael Lewchuk)
Subject: Re: Bombadil etc.
Organization: University of Alberta, Edmonton, Canada
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 18:56:25 GMT

tjg01@thdhub.HomeDepot.COM (Terry Gardner) writes:
>It was debated, that is true. Or rather suggested by someone, an
>Elf I think at the Council. But I thought that the idea was immediately
>shelved (the idea being to take the Ring to Bombadil), for various reasons:

>2. Bombadil was judged (without asking him =8-0 ) to NOT have the
>   power to resist the coming of Sauron at the last. In other words,

But it was debated, and the words used were "no, I think not".  The full
extent of Bombadil's power was known about as much as the full extent of
Gandalf the White's power and Elrond's power (and Galadriel's Power).  None
of these people revealed the full potential of their power if they could
help it.  Gandalf the Grey was "equal" to a Balrog, but Gandalf the White
never had his limits tested.  Elrond only showed his power as a master of
lore and had the ability to flood the river to protect Imladris.  Since
Bombadil was quite a hermit and rarely dealt with evil influences I suspect
there was more to his power than even the Council of Elrond knew of.

>   3.  Bombadil had NO FEAR.  Gandalf, Elrond, even Sauron were very afraid.
>       Goldberry herself showed no fear.
>Bombadil had nothing to be afraid of, inside the Forest. 

<Shrug>.  Gandalf ran from the Nine.  Bombadil might not have.  I'd have
still liked to see how Gandalf would've dealt with a Barrow-Wight.  Perhaps
broiled it in magical fire.  Bombadil used command words to accomplish what
others had to do indirectly: through plants and healing herbs for healing,
and swords and wizardry for attacks.  Bombadil just ran away or used singing
powered command words to do things.

>Are you in fact convinced that the Olorin (Maia) and Gandalf were
>one and the same? I'm not. True, it would be convincing in some ways,
>but what about the other Istari? Why would Saruman be chosen as head
>of the White Council, and not mentioned otherwise? I admit that I
>go back and forth on the issue of whether Gandalf-Mithrandir was
>the Olorin, but today, I don't think so.

Hehehehe.  Then you can agree with what I said some other day... :)
I'm not sure either but I'll make these points in favor of that statement:

The Istari were aged and never showed signs of aging.  Without them
pointy ears, that makes them a Maiar, since nothing but Elves in Middle-Earth
has that long of a lifespan.  It is possible but I doubt that they were
all Elves.  For one thing, compare Legolas' reaction with a bow to Gandalf's
reactions hobbling along with a stick.  The Istari seemed to be Men much more
than Elves.  Plus, Legolas showed other Elven powers such as running on snow
and tightrope walking, which none of the others (including Gandalf) had.

Saruman would be chosen as head of the White Council because he was the
First of the Istari.  Sort of like Melkor was First of the Valar.  If
Illuvitar can make mistakes, why can't the White Council?  Or was the evil
of Melkor part of the grand plan of Ea?  Now that's a real one to debate...
Not that Melkor's evil was part of the music (it clearly wasn't) but whether
it was part of a greater whole which may or may not have been designed by
Illuvitar as the destiny of Ea.  Since destiny seems to have so much weight
(because of the Singing among other things, it seems) is Melkor's departure
from Light to choose Darkness his destiny, foreseen possibly by Illuvitar?

>terry@HomeDepot.COM

					Michael Lewchuk
					lewchuk@cs.UAlberta.CA
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien