From: wiggins@lightning.cs.odu.edu (Samuel E Wiggins)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Jesus is a Prophet, not Son of God
Date: 13 Nov 92 02:25:45 GMT
	<WIGGINS.92Nov10123415@raedwald.cs.odu.edu>
Organization: Old Dominion University, Norfolk, VA, USA


   In article <P64wTB10w165w@kalki33> kalki33!system@lakes.trenton.sc.us writes:

      <RBNXHS@rohvm1.rohmhaas.com> writes:

      > In response to Sam Wiggins's assertion that Jesus claimed to be God:
      > 
      > There is not a single verse in the so-called canonical gospels where
      > Jesus explicitly stated that he is God or a God-incarnate. Your assertion
      > can only be accepted if one extrapolates the meanings of certain verses,
      > which are too subtle. Those verses are open to interpretation. Trinitarians
      > like to interpret them to prove the divinity of Jesus, others reject it.

      I thought the argument was about Jesus being the Son of God, not God. In
      the Bible, Jesus certainly claims that God is his father. You are
      right that he nowhere claimed to be God. In fact, he directly denies it
      in the verse "...for the Father is greater than I..." (John 14:28)

      Sincerely,
      Kalki Dasa
-----------------------
OK, this is the "more to come."  It's long, but bear with me...

     What does it mean to "be God?"  Jesus does not claim to be GOD THE FATHER,
as the above verse shows (Jn 14:28) in the sense of being the same person.
However, Jesus does claim to be God, that is, DIVINE.  For example, he does
claim to be the Son of God.  Now, it is important to note what this entails.
The significance of being the Son of God is that it carries all the power,
authority, and status of divinity.  The Jews went crazy over this: "Therefore
the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the
sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God."
(John 5:18)
     Let's look at the gospel of Matthew.  Matt. 7:29 says that he taught
like someone who had AUTHORITY, not like an ordinary scribe.  He didn't say,
"I believe the Scriptures say so-and-so."  He said, "This is what the
Scriptures really meant..."
     Matt. 9:2-6, where Jesus healed the man "with the palsy," says that
Jesus (the Son of Man in v. 6) forgave the man's sins.  Now everyone knows only
God can forgive sins.  Check out Luke 5:17-24 for the parallel.  Verse 21,
"And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, Who is this
who speaks blasphemies?  Who can forgive sins, but God alone?"
     In Matt. 12:8, where the Pharisees are saying that the disciples are
working (unlawful) on the Sabbath, Jesus reminds them that priests always
worked on the Sabbath (and were thus breaking the OT law), but even goes
further saying, "For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day."
He's WHAT??!!  The Greek word "kurios" is used for Lord; this is the Greek
equivalent for either Yahweh or Adon(ai) in Hebrew.  Luke 6:5 is the parallel.
     In Matt. 16:13-17, Jesus asked Peter who everyone thought He was and
who Peter thought He was.  Peter answered that the *people* thought He was a
prophet, but that he knew that Jesus was the Son of God (remember John 5:18
above?  Son of God=God, as well as God the Father=God).  Peter went along
with what the Pharisees would not in John 5:18.  And, Jesus said in Matt.
16:17, that God the Father showed Peter this truth.  Luke 9:18-21 is the
parallel.
     In Matt. 19:16-17, the rich, young ruler asked Jesus what he had to
do to be saved.  Incidentally, the man addressed Him as "Good master."
Jesus replied, "Why call me good?  No one is good but one,... God."  If Jesus
was good, then it follows from this that He is God, too.  Otherwise, Jesus
must be not good.  The *natural* implication of this verse, and the
traditional rendering (which I agree with), was that Jesus was saying that
He is God, again. :)  Mark 10:18 and Luke 18:19 also say this.
     Obviously, Jesus claimed to be the Christ, the Son of God.  In
Matt. 22:41-46, Jesus asked the Pharisees whose son the Christ was supposed
to be.  They replied, "David's."  Then Jesus said, "How does David then
call the Christ 'Lord?'"  Jesus then quotes Psalm 110:1 (by David),
"The LORD said to my Lord, Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies
your footstool."  In Greek it says, "THE+kurios (=YHWH) said to my kurios
(=Adon)."  The first Lord refers to God the Father, the second Lord mentioned
refers to Christ.  In effect, "the Self-existent LORD God (YHWH) said to my
Master (Adon or Adonai)..."  Both are divine terms for God.  Yet, Jesus
speaks of Himself.  See also, Mark 12:35-37 and Luke 20:41-44.  (Luke 22:69
is where Jesus also specifically said that He would sit at the right hand
of God and thus equates Himself to the Adon and God of Psalm 110:1.)
     Let's look at John.  In John 3:13, Jesus said that no one has ascended
to heaven, except Himself.  Likewise, John 6:32-33 says that Jesus is the
bread of life that has come down from heaven.  Would a prophet claim to have
come from heaven?
     In John 8:58, Jesus said EXPLICITLY, "For certain, I'm telling you
that before Abraham was, I am."  This is a clear reference to YHWH (the
Self-existent LORD) which comes from the same root word as "to be" in
Hebrew/Aramaic; another reference to being God.  Also, would a prophet claim
to have existed before Abraham?
     In John 9:35-38, after healing a man born blind, Jesus tells the man that
He is the Son of God.  The man believes totally and worshipped Him.  Jesus
allows Himself to be worshipped by the man!  Hmm.  Didn't the Jews believe
only God was worthy of worship and praise?  Would a true prophet allow himself
to be worshipped, or would he allow only God to be worshipped?
     As I mentioned before, from John 10:33 and 36, Jesus says being the Son
of God is being God.  "...we're not stoning you for a good work, but for
blasphemy because you, being a man, make yourself out to be God."  To which
Jesus replies, "You are called gods in your law.  If the Scripture calls
the ones to whom the message came "gods," and the Scripture can't be
contradicted, are you saying to him (Jesus refers to Himself) whom the
Father has sanctified and sent into the world, "You blaspheme," because I
said I was the Son of God?"  Jesus did NOT recant about making Himself out
to be God.
     And, finally, in John 13:13 Jesus says, "You call me Master and Lord:
and you say truthfully, because I am."  Jesus was obviously playing on
words here.  He expanded the normal use of these words, and connected them
with the divine.  Master (didaskalos) and Lord (kurios) could be used as
common respectful titles of that day.  But, they were also used
(the double meaning) to refer to God.  A prophet might allow himself to be
called Instructor(=didaskalos), but would he allow himself to be called
Lord (=kurios=Adon)?
     So, through these dozen or so passages, we can at least see how some
Christians might get the idea that Jesus claimed to be God.  I think,
there is a distinction between the three divine persons; that is, they each
have their own personalities.  But this is not to say that they are not all
God.  Such is the case with Jesus.  Though a different person than God,
He is divine also, and has the authority, power, and position co-equal with
God.  Jesus Himself claimed this, as has been shown.  These are not just
subtle, personal interpretations I have stated.  These are the logical
conclusions to be drawn, in a fairly straightforward manner, from the
words of Christ Himself.
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