From: larocqu@gaul.csd.uwo.ca (JOHN LAROCQUE)
Subject: Re: Jack "King" Kirby: ripped off by Marvel
Organization: Computer Science Dept., Univ. of Western Ontario, London, Canada
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 01:13:26 GMT

In article <BzqL3L.A60@news.cso.uiuc.edu> tpjg9663@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Tom Johnston) writes:

>>It's Chaykin's views that comics are trash. I think he should be the
>>patron saint of all the jerkoffs in this group who think that work for
>>hire is the greatest thing since sliced bread and that artists don't
>>deserve anything except a pat on the back and a small thank you for
>>their work. In fact - he's PERFECT. A marriage made in hell.

>OK, so your goal is to somehow make us all love and admire Chaykin?
>Good luck.

Maybe you STILL haven't picked up the message. Please try rereading the
above. By no means am I advocating Chaykin's view that comics are
trash - but as far as I'm concerned, the scum I mention above
(reread it) and Chaykin would get along just fine.

>>You mean after Robin died and Supes died and Spiderman got married in
>>Shea Stadium and since all the little bat-mites wrote protest letters
>>about Michael Keaton that ANYBODY OTHER THAN FANBOYS WILL TAKE COMICS
>>SERIOUSLY. If we don't love and appreciate the medium enough, nobody
>>else EVER will.

>We are not fanboys, and we are taking the medium seriously; we love
>	and appreciate the medium.  
>DC and Marvel have promoted certain garbage titles and poorly-done
>	comics to the hilt.  
>Both statements are true.

Marvel and especially DC have made it very embarrasing for collectors
like myself who buy comics for the art and stories, and not the latest
media blitz or marketing campaign. And it is DC's view of comics that
pilfers out into the newspapers, the whole idea that comics are for
overgrown kids who forgot to grow up.

>>> Some are aimed for adults,

>>who think like children and write protest letters about Batman....

>Well, if you're asked to not make blanket statements about all comics,
>why not make some about all comics readers?  Sheesh.

No, but I have covered a lot of bases. Are you aware how many "adults"
still restrict themselves to the x-trash? Or complain about how Micheal
Keaton isn't "macho" enough to play Batman (which is probably why you
saw more of the Penguin and Catwoman and almost NOTHING of Batman
this summer).

>>[...]  No, comics are
>>just a corporate commodity to be thrust in the trash or bought and sold
>>and collector shows for obscene amounts of money to non-comics speculators
>>who see a chance to make money. Comics = blowjobs.

>I accept comics as an artform, and at the same
>time accept that many comics creators work for Marvel & DC and
>don't own the rights to the characters they work on.

As much as we may enjoy their work, they will never be fully appreciated
at the corporate Marvel/DC headquarters - and this includes artists for
all tastes - from Sergio Aragones to Whilce Portacio to Rick Veitch.

>>> Nope, I'm just going to read the books which entertain me, and skip the
>>> rest. 

>>Comics = pornography. I'm just going to "read" the porn mags which entertain
>>me and skip the rest.

>Versus reading all comics, even those you don't enjoy?  Earth calling
>JLR, Earth calling JLR...

I am comparing YOUR view of comics to PORN, not advocating reading everything.
Context, my man, context. Reread it if you can. 

>>> The equation "Comics = toothpaste ..." doesn't deserve comment.

>>Maybe it deserves debate.

>Nope.

>Comics are an artform.  Comics creators are adults who shouldn't sign
>contracts they are not willing to fulfill.  

To quote you out of context - which is fine if the tables are turned - are
you praising the assembly line vision of comic books practiced at the
Big Two. Pump it out, find writers and artists, and if they kick up a 
stink, hire new ones who won't whine and complain.

>>> Believe it or not, I have a lot of respect for the Image creators for
>>> deciding to leave the guaranteed audience (and paychecks) of Marvel
>>> and go out on their own.

>>They didn't leave their audience. That's the whole point. They don't
>>need the Marvel/DC corporate cartel to find it. And (if they manage

>The Image boys may not have needed Marvel to find their audience,
>but they sure did use Marvel in that way.

Is that a PROBLEM? Marvel and DC practically OWN the superhero. Find a 
kid who buys comics for superheroes. 99 times out of 100 it will be one
of the big two (and most likely Marvel). Are we supposed to kiss their
fragging feet because Miller and McFarlane and Jim Lee and Alan Moore
all made it big at the big two. Who is worshipping at what temple here?

>>As for your crack about finding new titles, I have probably seen more
>>kinds of comic books than anybody else on this newsgroups. Some well
>>drawn, some not well drawn, some meant for some audiences, some for 
>>others. I don't believe that comics = toothpaste = porn = blowjob.
>>But I know that anybody who just regards comics as corporate commodities
>>is actively commiting themselves to the destruction of the whole comic
>>book genre.  

>My 'crack' about finding new titles was meant sincerely.  Some
>creators are putting out quality material, and their work doesn't
>deserve to be degraded simply because much of the mainstream comics
>work currently being done is (to put it charitably) aimed at 
>adolescents.

No, but it is precisely those adults-acting-like-adolescents who are ruining
the whole genre. It's almost pathetic, reading in the newpaper about all
the morons who went into "mourning" over Superman's death, or some lady
in the comic shop who went and bought the Supermans for her kid and as
some kind of investment. These people make me sick to my stomach. In the real
world, comics are nothing more than kid's entertainment. And what they see
of comic collectors, especially of the middle-aged fanboy who still 
salivates at the latest Flash comic, is someone who refuses to grow up.
They never see the comics that are really worth collecting - only the
trash, and this is the picture of our medium that is fed by the distributors
and most comic shop owners. "Buy your stuff, I just want your money" they
say to the little kids in their shop. Sharks all of them. Do they really
care about the medium or just the cash? 

If anything, it is that middle-aged adolescent who is "degrading" the
comic book genre. And it is the middle-aged adolescent who writes the
books on comics or gets interviewed in the newspaper over the latest
company scam. Not real collectors. Which is why, in the future, comic
books really will be junk, trash, porn, blow-jobs and toothpaste. Just
another corporate commodity aimed at kids. 

>Tom
-- 
John P. LaRocque                      "urk..urk"
skywalker@uwo.ca                      "Apology accepted, Captain Needa"
University of Western Ontario            Darth Vader (aka Annakin Skywalker)
London, Ontario                          The Empire Strikes Back
Newsgroups: rec.arts.comics.misc