HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: tp0x+@cs.cmu.edu (Thomas Price)
Newsgroups: comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.misc,alt.cyberpunk
Subject: Re: _The Turing Option_
Date: 28 Aug 92 20:29:51 GMT
Article-I.D.: cs.BtpnLt.IK1.1
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon

In article <1992Aug28.184552.7507@u.washington.edu> mimir@milton.u.washington.edu (Al Billings) writes, flaming my comment on the quotation "the poor
ye have always with you":

> It meant the shyster knew someone was going to kill him for his bullshit
>soon so wanted to enjoy the good life while he could.

Jeez, Al, what a waste of bandwidth. I'm sorry if I gave the impression
I'm a Christian -- I'm not, so you don't have to get all hostile and sneery.
Here's the original point of the thread, which, in your sudden hissy fit,
you seem to have entirely forgotten:

In article <1992Aug28.040259.2038@leela.cs.orst.edu> 
mcbeeb@atlantis.CS.ORST.EDU  (Brian Mcbee) writes:
>As a wise man said about 2000 years ago: "The poor will always be with you".
>
>Unfortunately, the thing that is easiest to do, namely, give money to the
>poor (or whatever charity you wish) doesn't help in the long run.  What
>probably helps most (at least in the third world) is spreading the idea
>of capitalism and a free society.

This is an actual secular problem: short-term vs long-term solutions.
Do we do pure research or do we do applied engineering? Do we educate
or do we subsidize? Do we start working hard for change or do we study
some more, wary of going off half-cocked? Of course we do both -- but
how do we balance them?

I'll suggest again that the quotation "the poor will always be with you"
belongs to an episode in the Gospels when Jesus addressed this particular
problem of balance between short-term and long-term solutions to problems,
or short-term and long-term perspectives on our careers. Forgive me. I'm
in the middle of one of my lucid stages when I imagine that people I
disagree with aren't automatically stupid, and I still might learn something
from them. 

>Wassail,
>Grendel

Tom

******************************************************************************
 Tom Price  |  Obscure Dropout  |  tp0x@cs.cmu.edu  |  Simplicity, simplicity
******************************************************************************
Newsgroups: comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.misc,alt.cyberpunk
From: kasprj@isaac.its.rpi.edu (Jim Kasprzak)
Subject: Re: _The Turing Option_
Reply-To: kasprj@rpi.edu
Organization: The Big Wedge 
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1992 13:57:36 GMT

In article <1992Aug28.184552.7507@u.washington.edu>, mimir@milton.u.washington.edu (Al Billings) writes:

|>  It meant the shyster knew someone was going to kill him for his bullshit
|> soon so wanted to enjoy the good life while he could.
|> 
|>  Just another interpretation.
 
 Interesting interpretation indeed. Jesus was killed for his "bullshit" only 
in the same sense that Gandhi, Martin Luther King, and the protestors at 
Tiananmen Square were killed for their "bullshit". The world could use some
more of that sort of bullshit, I think.

Newsgroups: comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.misc,alt.cyberpunk
From: chris@kbsw1 (Chris Kostanick 806 1044)
Subject: Re: _The Turing Option_
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 15:47:37 GMT
Reply-To: chris@kbsw3.UUCP (Chris Kostanick 806 1044)
Organization: Kentek Information Systems

In article <8Tk6PB1w165w@entropy.mcds.com> morpheus@entropy.mcds.com (Purple Haze...) writes:
>chris@kbsw1 (Chris Kostanick 806 1044) writes:
>
>> People today live longer and eat better than at any time in
>> history. This is scarred and desolate?
>
>Who wants to live longer?  To be fucked over by the government more?
>
>Only reason I'd want to live longer is to outlive the government.
>

Pretend the people following you around are casting agents from
the movie studios.

Chris Kostanick
"One world government. Have a nice day. Or else."
From: choy@skorpio.usask.ca
Newsgroups: comp.ai.philosophy
Subject: What do I do with it?
Date: 3 Sep 92 19:42:53 GMT
Organization: University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Canada


Let's say I want to build an intelligent machine. What's it to be
used for? Can this machine out its role in the universe?

Henry Choy
choy@cs.usask.ca
Xref: sparky comp.ai.philosophy:5946 rec.arts.sf.misc:2806 alt.cyberpunk:4120
Newsgroups: comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.misc,alt.cyberpunk
Subject: Re: _The Turing Option_
From: system@kryton.UUCP (Scott Beckstead)
Date: Tue, 01 Sep 92 15:25:05 PDT
Organization: Paradox Alley F&SF BBS 805-492-8789

mike@highlite.uucp (Mike Wiik) writes:

> mcbeeb@atlantis.CS.ORST.EDU (Brian Mcbee) writes:
> 
> >As a wise man said about 2000 years ago: "The poor will always be with you".
> 
> Maybe he was mis-quoted. Wouldn't be the first time. Maybe you should
> have put "An alleged man allegedly said...."
> 
> >Unfortunately, the thing that is easiest to do, namely, give money to the
> >poor (or whatever charity you wish) doesn't help in the long run.  What
> >probably helps most (at least in the third world) is spreading the idea
> >of capitalism and a free society.
> 
> Yes, but it's difficult for those of us with a conscience to have to 
> explain to a starving child that, no, we won't give you any food today
> because in the long run it's bad for you to depend on us and you need
> to develop self-sufficiency...
> 
> >In general, there are more people living in prosperity and freedom than ther
> >have ever been throughout human history.
> 
> Well, there's more people... I'd argue, though, that there's very few
> people today who live in the kind of freedom enjoyed by our hunter-
> gatherer forbears....
> 
> 	-Mike
> 
> -- 
>    | o==== . : ... :  :  .     |Mail Me Neat Stuff->POB 3703 Arlington VA 222
>  --@-- . o o o ... O -O- o o : |No disclaimers needed: I actually pay for thi
>    |           ... :  :        |---------------------------------------------
> mEssAGE fRoM sPAcE ARt stUdiOs |Man:TheMissingLinkBetweenApes&HigherIntellige
  As regards telling the starving child that we wont.... etc.
Sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind.  If he's constantly waiting for 
a handout he has no time to go out and gewt his own food.  The handout has
to be tempered with a hand up.  (anti-liberal that I am I prefer letting
the hand up be enough and wait for nature to sort out the bloody details)


System Administrator Paradox Alley  F&SF BBS and Usenet News/Mail 
805-492-8789  Thousand Oaks, Ca. The Place For Science Fiction and Fantasy
"Spin My Nipple Nuts and Send Me to Alaska!" Kryten, Red Dwarf
From: wcalvin@hardy.u.washington.edu (William Calvin)
Newsgroups: comp.ai.philosophy
Subject: Re: Don't try to "define" intelligence
Date: 29 Aug 92 15:13:33 GMT
Article-I.D.: u.1992Aug29.151333.24453
Organization: University of Washington

Human estimates of intelligence in other animals seem, to me, to be based
on an animal's versatility.  Omnivores such as bears and crows have a lot
of ways of detecting and acquiring food; they can sometimes mix and match
those sensory and motor abilities to undertake something novel.

Human estimates of another human's intelligence are often based, not on
versatility but on the speed of thinking and on how many things can be
juggled "in mind" simultaneously (as needed for analogical reasoning) 
Indeed IQ tests heavily weight those tests which involve speed of
recognition and number of items (digit span, analogical reasoning).
    William H. Calvin   WCalvin@U.Washington.edu
From: G.Joly@cs.ucl.ac.uk (Gordon Joly)
Newsgroups: comp.ai.philosophy
Subject: Re: Mind Reading
Date: 3 Sep 92 10:57:20 GMT



>> I suppose we all use personal experience as an input to our research. I'm
>> going to describe something here that has influenced my ideas.

What an admission! :-)

>> I've learned over the years to read minds. This is _not_ ESP, but rather a
>> four-stage process as follows:
>> 
>> 1. Instantiate a personality model,
>> 2. Calibrate it based on observation,
>> 3. Do a process switch into the calibrated model,
>> 4. Observe the model.
>> [...]

How would artificial mind reading (c.f. AI) be distinct from real mind
reading? The sort of thing we experience from time to time 

``Let's go for a walk to buy bread'' ... ``I was just thinking about
exactly that ...''

is too subtle to be measured objectively.

>> [...]
>> The results are often startling, and it is the simple existence of this
>> sort of ability that leads me to speculate on distributed cognition in
>> social groups.
>> [...]
>> - -- 
>> Harry Erwin
>> Internet: erwin@trwacs.fp.trw.com
>>

But how does that feedback into the (model of the) individual?

Gordon.

``Love sex intelligence, coming on like a seventh sense'' - The Shamen.
____

Gordon Joly      Phone  +44 71 387 7050 ext 3703      FAX  +44 71 387 1397
Internet: G.Joly@cs.ucl.ac.uk        UUCP: ...!{uunet,uknet}!ucl-cs!G.Joly
Computer Science, University College London, Gower Street, LONDON WC1E 6BT
Xref: sparky comp.ai.philosophy:5960 rec.arts.sf.misc:2814 alt.cyberpunk:4136
From: olson@dstl86.gsfc.nasa.gov (Paul Olson)
Newsgroups: comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.misc,alt.cyberpunk
Subject: Re: 21st Century Soldier
Date: 4 Sep 92 17:05:00 GMT
Organization: Mission Operations and Data Systems
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <185borINNj1l@agate.berkeley.edu>, cascio@garnet.berkeley.edu (Jamais Cascio) writes...
> 
>This was in sci.military, but is of definite relevance to this
>newsgroup. 
> 
>I include all relevant posting information.
> 
>Article 21640 of sci.military:
>Newsgroups: sci.military
>Path: agate!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!gatech!hubcap!ncrcae!ncrlnk!ciss!lawday!military
>From: CMSgt Mike Bergman <bergman@afnews.pa.af.mil>
>Subject: Improving the Way Infantrymen Are Equipped
>Message-ID: <BtpCDL.LI6@lawday.DaytonOH.NCR.COM>
>Sender: military@lawday.DaytonOH.NCR.COM (Sci.military account)
>Organization: Hq Air Force News Agency/SCC
>Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 16:27:21 GMT
>Approved: military@lawday.daytonoh.ncr.com
>Lines: 144
> 
> 
>From CMSgt Mike Bergman <bergman@afnews.pa.af.mil>
> 
>     Material in "Press Pack" is intended for use by editors of
>Department of Defense-sanctioned publications and news editors of
>DoD electronic media.  Permission is not needed to reprint or
>broadcast its contents, but please credit AFIS and individual
>authors for material used.
> 
>			_____________________
> 
>Improving the Way Infantrymen Are Equipped
> 
>By Jim Garamone
>American Forces Information Service
> 
>     Luke Skywalker, look out.  The image and equipment of American
>service members will make a quantum leap into the 21st century if
>equipment now under development is adopted.
>
> [body of article deleted]
> 
>Welcome to the new century, folks.
> 
> 
>Jamais A. Cascio             \\  "I'd rather be a smartass than a dumbass"
>cascio@garnet.berkeley.edu    \\                       -me
>Department of Political Science\\    "Too bad you never had a choice"
>210 Barrows Hall UCB 94720      \\                      -my wife
>**************************************************************************

This is actually old news.  I saw a news report about this in one of the
defence related rags about 2 years ago, back when I worked at the Pentagon.

This type of improvement is useful only at the beginning of a war or in small
scale skirmishes where the high tech side numerically overwhelms the
opposition.  As a good friend of mine (ex-Navy enlisted, ex-Marine officer,
ex-merc) once said, "As the war gets longer, the level of technology used gets
lower."  The new century may have added another technology layer, but it still
comes down to who can fight better hand-to-hand.

Dr. Forbin
Newsgroups: comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.misc,alt.cyberpunk
From: shaun@octel.com (Attacking Deep Structure)
Subject: Re: _The Turing Option_
Organization: Octel Communications Inc., Milpitas Ca.
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 00:08:49 GMT

In article <Btp8DC.4Fo.1@cs.cmu.edu> tp0x+@cs.cmu.edu (Thomas Price) writes:
>Context: Very soon before his crucifixion, while Jesus sat eating dinner, 
>(at Sizzler) woman came in and washed his feet and anointed him with very 
>expensive ointment (Oil of Olay.)  Judas sniffed (Allerest) about what a 
>waste (Hefty Bags) it was, and how the ointment could have been sold (in 
>K-Mart) and the money used for charitable purposes (United Way.)  (Judas was 
>the treasurer of the little group and embezzled from their common purse 
>(by Gucci.)) Jesus said, "The poor you always have with you, but me you don't."
>
>>>In general, there are more people living in prosperity and freedom than there
>>>have ever been throughout human history.
>
>I don't understand the significance of this at all -- there are more people 
>living, period, than there have ever been throughout human history. 

Never before have so many had so much Coke and Pepsi from so few.
-- 
shaun@octel.com  ||  "Now is the time on Sprockets when we Lambada!"
              
Laundry: the process of turning perfectly good clothes into lint.
Newsgroups: comp.ai.philosophy
Subject: Re: Consiousness
From: barryp@otago.ac.nz
Date: 24 Aug 92 09:50:16 +1300
Organization: University of Otago, Dunedin, New Zealand
From: barryp@otago.ac.nz
Newsgroups: sci.cognitive
Subject: Re: Consciousness
Date: 24 Aug 92 09:44:52 +1300
Followup-To: sci.cognitive
Distribution: sci
Organization: University of Otago, Dunedin, New Zealand

In article <1992Aug23.014900.16178@news.Hawaii.Edu>, lady@uhunix.uhcc.Hawaii.Edu (Lee Lady) writes:
> 
> It seems to me that one of the things that distinquishes humans from
> other animals is that humans (at least in most cultures) have a real
> sense of time, a sense of the past and future.  While certainly other
> animals have memory in some sense, I don't think they have a real sense
> of the past.  When a dog's owner comes back from being away at college,
> for instance, and the dog seems totally overjoyed, I think it is only our
> anthropomorphism that interprets this as meaning that the dog has been
> aware that the owner was gone a very long time.  I realize that this is
> pretty fuzzy speculation on my part, but there it is, for what it's worth. 
> 
> weeks or even years in the future.  Birds flying south for the winter or
> building a nest in the spring don't seem to have this same sort of
> conscious intentionality, although we anthropomorphically attribute it to
> them.  Do beavers building a dam have some sort of awareness that it will
> be nice to have a dam, or do they just enjoy dam building as an
> activity?  I guess one could figure out experiments to test this.  
> 
One could figure out experiments but teh problem with animals is that we can't
ask them what there reasons for their actions are.  My feeling is that the
time sense is more developed in humans than most other animals but it is
impossible to argue that it is totally lacking elsewhere.  A good point to 
remember is that humans are just animals and any faculty found in humans is
found elsewhere in nature.  Dogs probably think something similar about 
humans.

Barry Phease
Newsgroups: comp.ai.philosophy
From: markh@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Mark)
Subject: Re: Loebner Prize Transc. Terminal 1 (long)
Keywords: Turing Test
Organization: Computing Services Division, University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 02:50:22 GMT

In article <93987@bu.edu> leao@buphy0.bu.edu (Joao Leao) writes:
>Turing Test Transcript for Terminal 1 
>
>				 "Women's Clothing"

Machine.  When in doubt, ask yet another question.
Xref: sparky comp.ai.philosophy:5904 rec.arts.sf.misc:2740 alt.cyberpunk:4043
From: mcbeeb@atlantis.CS.ORST.EDU (Brian Mcbee)
Newsgroups: comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.misc,alt.cyberpunk
Subject: Re: _The Turing Option_
Date: 29 Aug 92 04:16:53 GMT
Article-I.D.: leela.1992Aug29.041653.7197
Organization: Computer Science Outreach Services - Oregon State University

In article <17lrnqINN91c@early-bird.think.com> moravec@Think.COM (Hans Moravec) writes:
>
>	You're right, technology is making things worse.  Let's get
>rid of television.
>
>				-- Hans Moravec

It does seem that television has focused most people's minds on "the crisis
of the moment", whatever that might be.  

The point I was trying to make was that if you want something to be 
pessimistic about, don't focus on the things that are getting better,
focus instead on the things that are getting worse (which in our
country means the accelerating erosion of our freedoms).

BTW: (not directed at you, Hans) Republican I most certainly aint.
From: stgprao@st.unocal.COM (Richard Ottolini)
Newsgroups: comp.ai.philosophy
Subject: Re: Sense of time (was Re: Consiousness)
Date: 26 Aug 92 00:01:19 GMT
Organization: Unocal Corporation

In article <1992Aug25.122721.20724@bony1.bony.com> richieb@bony1.bony.com (Richard Bielak) writes:
>I would say that sense of time is more of a cultural/language feature.
>We have a sense of time because we wear watches :-).

No. The sense of time is the ability to retain images in the mind of
past events or future plans and reflect on them.  Animals probably don't
have the ability of reflection.  They do have memories and can make simple
plans, but these are more sensation-reactive than reflection.
We have culture and history.  They don't.

>There are some languages (eg. Navajo) which do not have the word for
>"time".

This is myth perpretrated by the philosopher Benjamen Whorf.  Most languages
can express most ideas in other languages, given enough verbiage.
Each language does it in a slightly different way that gives that language
its unqiue poetic flavor.
A related myth is that because Chinese doesn't have verb tenses (they actually
do have a few) they cant express time.  I can think in Chinese and the sense
of time is as clear as English.
Another Whorf myth was that Eskimos have thirty-some terms for snow and we
just have one.  When someone examined this a few years, it was found that
English had almost all these terms in single words or short phrases- sleet,
slush, powder, etc.

>On your next vacation don't use clocks for few days and see how you
>perceive the passage of time.

The sense of time means "reflection on past and future", not the ability to
count time units.
From: damon@netcom.com (Damon Skaggs)
Newsgroups: comp.ai
Subject: ID3 in C?
Date: 1 Sep 92 15:34:37 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)


I know this has been asked hundreds of times, but I never see an answer.
Does anyone have an ID3 implementation or something like it in C?
(Maybe this should go in a FAQ)


damon@netcom.com
From: rwojcik@atc.boeing.com (Richard Wojcik,snake)
Newsgroups: comp.ai
Subject: Re: AI Winter Refugees
Date: 31 Aug 92 16:06:35 GMT
Reply-To: rwojcik@atc.boeing.com
Organization: Research & Technology

In article vere@netcom.com, vere@netcom.com (Steven Vere) writes:
>The following is  an interesting response  I received by  email from a
>person who   would  like  to remain  anonymous  to avoid  jeopardizing
>his/her job.  In this text, the name of the  company has been replaced
>by <MC> for Major Corporation.

>>o what were the causes of AI Winter?
>...
>	This brings up another problem. At least here, the corporate
>	culture really hampers technology transfer to occur in areas
>	that one can't "touch and feel" the result. ie. It's much
>	easier to bring in new technologies to the factory floor
>	that to the MIS department. Our managemenmt just doesn't
>	understand computers and how to handle information/knowledge.
>	They can't feel it, or touch it, and computers are much
>	too archane. In talking with my colleagues, this is a big
>	problem in any corporation that has an older, white male
>	management, like <MC>. In this kind of culture, AI systems
>	just don't flourish, even when used for applications they are
>	suited for.  It's been very frustrating to see this process.

I agree with the writer on a lot of things.  In fact, the lament isn't all
that different from the remarks I have made.  I emphatically disagree with
the implication that the attitude has anything to do with the racial or
gender makeup of the power structure in the corporation.  In fact, you find
exactly the same attitudes in women and other minority managers.  What you
really have to understand is that AI solutions don't work if you think of
the problems as only technical.  When you set out to change a work process,
you are heading straight into a briar patch of politics.  You can run away
from it, or you can look for people who can help you sell the vision.  Every
corporate environment has its liberals and conservatives when it comes to
change.  There are tremendous opportunities in every business environment
that needs to manage information (i.e. *all* of them).  If you want to 
succeed, you must search out leverage for change.  You had better do your
homework in understanding how that change will affect work processes and
listen to those who voice the most opposition.  They may even have a point.

>I find it interesting that Europe is not having the same
>problem. I've been talking to colleagues who are finding
>opportunities in Frace, England, Spain, and Geramny. They
>systems are being used there, and jobs are more numerous.

As I said in an earlier post, this may have something to do with the 
government's role.  Europe and Japan have no problem with establishing
R&D funding agencies to direct and support the private sector.  The 
US is stuck in the pig-headed position that only military subsidies
are valid.  Everything else is "socialism."

-----
Disclaimer:  Opinions expressed above are not those of my employer.

    Rick Wojcik   (rwojcik@atc.boeing.com)   Seattle, WA
From: thomason+@B.GP.CS.CMU.EDU (Rich Thomason)
Newsgroups: comp.ai.edu
Subject: PhD Program, Univ. of Pittsburgh
Date: 4 Sep 92 20:21:58 GMT
Article-I.D.: cs.Bu2LwM.549.2
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon
Originator: thomason@B.GP.CS.CMU.EDU


   THE INTELLIGENT SYSTEMS PROGRAM AT THE UNIVERSITY OF PITTSBURGH 

   The ISP is an independent degree-granting unit, providing a center
for graduate training and research in Artificial Intelligence at the
University of Pittsburgh.  Drawing on faculty from many schools and
departments, the Program offers a strong core of courses in AI and
relevant areas of Computer Science, as well as access to many related
fields and application areas.  After initial course requirements are met
in the first two years of study, there is wide flexibilty in planning
research concentrations leading to the Ph.D.  degree.  

	The Program draws on research projects in many areas, including
AI in Medicine, Expert Systems, and AI in Education.  Among the areas of
specialization that the Program features are:

		Case-Based Reasoning and Legal Applications
		Expert Systems
		Generating Natural Language Explanations
		Intelligent Computer-Assisted Instruction
		Knowledge Representation
		Machine Learning
		Medical Informatics
		Plan Generation and Plan Recognition
		Resource-Limited Reasoning
		Uncertain Reasoning

	Faculty from many schools and departments are involved in the
Program, including: Kevin D. Ashley (Law), Bruce Buchanan (Computer
Science), Gordon Banks (Neurology), Gregory F. Cooper (Medicine),
Alan Lesgold (Psychology), Jerrold May (Business), Randolph A. Miller
(Medicine) Johanna D. Moore (Computer Science), Paul Munro
(Information Science), Martha E. Pollack (Computer Science), Walter
Schneider (Psychology), Steven Small (Neurology), Richmond H.
Thomason (Linguistics), Kurt VanLehn (Computer Science).

	Support through graduate research assistantships is available
to qualified students.

	For further information, send electronic mail to 

		isp@pogo.isp.pitt.edu

or write to Intelligent Systems Program /  University of Pittsburgh /
Pittsburgh, PA 15260, or call (412) 624-5755.
Newsgroups: comp.ai.edu,comp.edu,comp.ai
From: munoz@dewey.soe.berkeley.edu (Augustin Munoz)
Newsgroups: comp.ai.edu
Subject: logo
Date: 1 Sep 1992 21:44:39 GMT
Organization: School of Education, U.C. Berkeley
Distribution: usa
NNTP-Posting-Host: dewey.soe.berkeley.edu
Originator: munoz@dewey.soe.berkeley.edu



   Does anyone what progress has been made in the creation of a news group
on LOGO? It seemes taht was about to be created just before summer.
  Thank you.