From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.polish
Subject: Re: On Polish Anti-semitism
Date: 3 Oct 92 20:31:52 GMT
Article-I.D.: Princeto.1992Oct3.203152.12726
Reply-To: roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig)
Organization: Princeton University
Originator: news@nimaster

In article <1992Oct3.160441.27290@dxcern.cern.ch> michal@vsnmc1.cern.ch (Michal Szleper) writes:
>roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig) writes:

>>I don't follow.  Are you telling me that you visited Israel and didn't
>>see Arabs and Jews living, working, doing business together?  That there 
>>are no Arab members of the Knesset? That *all* Arabs are treated like those
>>in Gaza?  

>>Or what does your nasty little line there mean?  REad again what I said:
>>*many* ofthem are assimilated.

>Ok, then.  Also *many* Jews were assimilated in Poland.  The only
>difference being that *nobody* in Poland is treated as those in Gaza.

Wonderful.  Now tell me again why you brought Israel into the discussion
in the first place.  Did you have a point?

>>(------------------ personal invectives deleted -----------------------)
>>                                                Look above: nowhere
>>did I sanction the treatment of Palestinian refugees, of Palestinians
>>in the occupied territories, etc.  In fact, I specifically excluded those
>                                    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>cases from my discussion.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

>That's it, Roger Lustig.  You just repeated my point.  My suggestion

No, sorry.  You have deleted the context of my remarks in order to attempt
to twist my words.  I'm not having any of that.  

YOU attempted to bring the Palestinian issue into the discussion, and will
not tolerate any deviation from your view of it.  It is irrelevant to a
discussion of Polish anti-Semitism in the first place, and whatever is 
happening in Gaza is irrelevant to the fact that Israel made a long, 
good-faith attempt to integrate all the diverse populations within its
borders as much as possible.  The tragic consequences of war have led to
a nasty situation in the occupied territories, and some of Israel's policies
have exacerbated the problems.  But all this has nothing to do with the
fact that, when I pointed out that many Arabs are fully integrated into
Israeli society, you accused me of thoughtcrime akin to denying the
Holocaust.  I still await your apology for that and for deleting relevant
text.

>is therefore, before you continue to blame others for what they've
>done to the Jews, why don't you express your opinion about what Jews
>do to the others?  I think that would be only fair.

Because it's irrelevant to the discussion.  

Also, because your request is blatantly racist.  "The Jews" are not
responsible for Israel's conduct any more than the Polish population of
Chicago was responsible for Gomulka.

Next, exactly whom have I blamed for what they did to "The Jews"?  So
far as I can tell, the only classes I have blamed globally were anti-Semites
and the forces of the Third Reich.

Finally, since when does one go around during a discussion of a specific
topic and demand that people dispense their opinions of this or that?
Sounds like Political Correctness -- even McCarthyism.  "We won't let you
play, or listen to what you have to say, unless we know you hold opinions
A, B, and C."

>And btw, try to reply *without* personal invectives.  They will not
>make me change my mind.

I used exactly one epithet -- idiot -- and that after you had misread
what I had clearly written (and which you have now deleted, whether for
the sake of brevity or just to avoid embarrassment, I don't know) --
for the third time.  

>+-------------------------------------------------------------------+
>|  My opinions are my opinions.  But facts are those of everyone.   |
>+--------------------------------+----------------------------------+

Indeed.  Why does the fact that some Arabs live as full-fledged
Israeli citizens send you into such a tizzy?

And why are you so desperate to hear *my* opinion of every detail of the
Palestinian situation in a discussion on Poland?  So that you can
reject it and thus dismiss all my other assertions, perhaps?  I
suppose that's easier than actually arguing the issues, but I still 
don't like it.

Roger
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish