Newsgroups: bit.listserv.gaynet
Date:         Thu, 13 Aug 1992 11:46:28 -0400
From:         gaynet@ATHENA.MIT.EDU
Subject:      GayNet Digest Volume 5 Issue 621

In this issue:
                           lies by ommission?
                             AIDS paranoia
                           lies by ommission?
                              Magic's Book
                  TIME Magazine writes on Bisexuality
                  Philip Morris to Target Cigs to Gays
                        Morrissey--Out for YEARS
                             ethnic gayness

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----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: MPA15AB!RANDY@TRENGA.tredydev.unisys.com
Date: 13 AUG 92 02:16
Subject: Re: lies by ommission?

COULPETG.JABBA@law.mail.cornell.edu (COULPETG) writes:

> I don't think it is possible to "lie by ommission" in any
> ordinary sense of the words....If others assume that I am straight simply
> because they assume everyone is, then the only choice I have to not live
> this lie by ommission is to continuously wear a placard reading
> "I am gay" and shouting those words out as I walk down the
> street....But it's ridiculous to think that I should make it clear
> to the grocery store clerk that I'm gay or else be told I'm not
> living my life "openly" or "honestly."

Actually, Peter, I agree with you.  I was trying to explain what could be meant
by the phrase "living a lie."  I think it really comes down to how much one
cares what others think--if I were to laugh at homophobic jokes, change
genders when talking about people I know, or be careful what I say in a
personal phone call that may be overheard, then I am trying to hide my sexual
orientation and to that extent am living a lie.  I agree that simply not
volunteering information, while also not making any attempts at reinforcing
an assumption of being strait, is not living a lie [hope I didn't go over my
negatives-per-sentence allotment on that one].

Randy

  =====================================================================
  = sua cuique voluptas              (everyone has his own pleasures) =
  = Randy Gellens            randy%mpa15ab@trenga.tredydev.unisys.com =
  = >>>>>>> If mail bounces, forward to rgellens@mcimail.com <<<<<<<< =
  = Opinions are personal; facts are suspect; I speak only for myself =

                          Randomly selected tag:

You are wise, witty, and wonderful, but you spend too much time reading
this sort of trash.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Aug 92 23:54 PDT
From: JAKOB@U.WASHINGTON.EDU
Subject: AIDS paranoia

1) a different theory on the origin of AIDS [from French investigators?]:
AIDS has been around not for hundreds but for THOUSANDS of years, spread to
humans by bites or whatever from the monkey host; like most infectious diseases
it had little effect on the overall population even if such monkey to human
transfers resulted (thru sex and childbirth) in the death of whole African
villages, because they were small and isolated [the way most humans have lived
for the 99% of human history]; the BIG problem started when the social-scene
in Africa began to radically change in this century: not only were an unprece-
dented number of people moving back and forth between those formerly isolated
little villages and the big new African cities, but once they arrived in the
big cities, they began engaging in promiscuous sexual behavior since they were
no longer under the watchful eyes of their relatives (I'm sure I would have
done the same!). AIDS virus has been found in bllod specimens in deep-freeze
in Nigerian hospitals since the 1950's ---had retrovirus's even been discovered
then?
2) An interesting, lengthy article in DER SPIEGEL last year mentioned an
unfortunate custom practiced in east central Africa (one of the most heavily
hit areas for AIDS) where people capture apes, get some blood from them, and
innoculate themselves with it, forming little welts around the hips: male ape
blood for male humans, female for female---this is supposed to increase sexual
potency in the humans. Who knows if this has been another avenue of infection?
Just an idea to consider.......
3) the AIDS virus does not cause pulmonary symptoms: it debilitates the immune
system, leaving the body susceptible to otherwise harmless "opportunistic"
pathogens, in the case of the lungs, the culprits are mainly Pneumocystis
carinii and Mycobacterium (avium) intracellulare, not the AIDS virus.
4) the main preventative force against AIDS is education, not that fact that
your skin happens to be one color or another. AIDS is spreading fastest in the
"colored" populations of the world (fastest in Asia) for two reasons: first,
most of the world's population IS "colored" [why must we define people's skin
color by using "white" as the standard against which others are defined? We
are ALL colored, in shades from light to dark] and strait, so naturally that's
where a sexually-spread epidemic will end up spreading most to: the darker-
skinned strait population, which (reason #2) are also unfortunately apt to be
less educated about health issues, biology etc. (the Japanese and Koreans are
more literate: AIDS is spreading more slowly there). Poverty and lack of
education are of course intimately connected.               ----Jaakob Dempsey

------------------------------

From: jcollier@ariel.ucs.unimelb.EDU.AU (John Donald Collier)
Subject: Re: lies by ommission?
Date: 13 Aug 92 12:27:59 GMT
Organization: University of Melbourne, Australia

In digest <9208121701.AA00831@Toto.MIT.EDU> gaynet@ATHENA.MIT.EDU writes:

>I don't think it is possible to "lie by ommission" in any
>ordinary sense of the words.

Technically that is correct. It is, however, quite possible to
be dishonest by omission.--
John Collier 			Email: jcollier@ariel.ucs.unimelb.edu.au
HPS -- U. of Melbourne		  	Fax:   61+3 344 7959
Parkville, Victoria, AUSTRALIA 3052

------------------------------

Date:         Thu, 13 Aug 92 08:34:46 CDT
From: TPENNYC3@UA1VM.UA.EDU
Subject:      Magic's Book

     Wednesday afternoon I phoned both Kmart and Walgreens to voice my
disapproval for their decisions not to carry Magic Johnson's AIDS
awareness book; I seem to have received the same response as other
netters have listed.  The Kmart representative was very friendly,
but the one for Walgreens was anything but helpful or glad that I
called.
     I spoke to the Kmart rep. for a long time and received some
information that I hadn't seen on the net.  The company is keeping
a tally of the phone calls received (we knew that already) and I
inquired about the counts.  Of the calls received, most have been
against their decision.  EVERYONE SHOULD IMMEDIATELY RUN TO THE
PHONE AND SHOW YOUR DISAPPROVAL.
     With some persistance, I also managed to get another number
from the Kmart rep.  She gave me the name and number of the
main book buyer, and suggested that I could call him/her to
receive more information on the reasons for their decision.
In addition to the 800 number (which we still need to call for
the vote tally) we can also call the following:
              LYNN BOND   (203) 352-2216
     Everyone on the net should call, and get their friends to call.
It doesn't take very much time, and it could possibly help change
their decisions.  Another idea is to let your local AIDS organizations
know about the book, give them the numbers, and request them to pass
the numbers out to staff, volunteers, and clients.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 07:07:24 -0700 (PDT)
From: Loren Meissner <lmeissne@u.washington.edu>
Subject: TIME Magazine writes on Bisexuality
Mime-Version: 1.0

The current issue of TIME Magazine (next week's cover date-Starving
Yugoslavian War victims on the cover) has a lengthy feature article on
Bisexuality. It is too lengthy to type in here (over 2 pages of text), but
folks, check it out and post your comments on Gaynet. (DISCLAIMER: I am
mentioning this article for informational purposes only. The views in the
TIME article are not necessarily my own and I do not personally intend to
take responsibility for its contents, i.e any flames on the article,
please write TIME Magazine, don't flame me on the net. Thanks.)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 08:01:51 -0700 (PDT)
From: Loren Meissner <lmeissne@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Philip Morris to Target Cigs to Gays
Mime-Version: 1.0

The following article was published in the Thursday Aug. 13 "Advertising"
column (page B1) of _THE WALL STREET JOURNAL_. (Reprinted without
permission-excerpted here due to lack of time to type it all in.
Disclaimer: I am posting this for informational purposes only and the
views expressed in the article are not necessarily mine).

PHILIP MORRIS TO PUSH BRAND IN GAY MEDIA
by Joanne Lipman

....[Tobacco] industry giant Philip Morris Co.s next month will unveil
Benson and Hedges Special Kings- an 85 millimeter version of its longer
upscale smoke- with ads directed in part to the homosexual market. Among
other publications [including Esquire and GQ], the brand's introductory
campaign is scheduled to appear in the October-November issue of _Genre_,a
fashion and life style magazine for homosexual men. The ad campaign
apparantly marks the first time that a major tobacco company has
advertised in the national gay press.....

[etc.etc.etc., I have to stop
typing now and get to work, but if the demand is there, I can type in more
tonight (if you folks write me and ask me to do it)].

------------------------------

From: Mark Hertzog <mwh8h@uva.pcmail.Virginia.EDU>
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 92 11:24:00 EDT
Subject: Morrissey--Out for YEARS

Howdy.
     Someone who shares my first name erroneously reports that "Morrissey...
has yet to declare his affections."  In fact, Morrissey has been out for
years; he talked very directly about being queer in the first Rolling Stone
article about The Smiths in ca. 1984.
     <snap! snap! snap! in Zorro formation>

Mark (in Virginia), who wishes Jodie Foster, Greg Louganis, Lily Tomlin and
Christian Laettner, who've dipped their toes in the water, would *GET OVER
IT* and take the plunge just as Morrissey has

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 11:45:03 -0400 (EDT)
From: "David M. Pahnos" <dp0q+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: ethnic gayness

Mike! <mike.w.miller.40@nd.edu>
>michael j pastor iii, who can post from wherever he damn well pleases as
>far as I'm concerned, writes:

that got quite a chuckle from me...thanks

>Third phase identity politics is the phase that you will find the
>progressive black, womens, and gay movements in.

 your use of  progressive is purely subjective, because I see it as
regressive.  I see it as a backlash to defensiveness and diviciveness
and anglophobia, patriphobia and heterophobia.

>1."Don't forget we're out here"
>2."I can be anything you can be".
>3."No wonder women have never been much recognized as great writers -- we're
>judging "great" by male created standards.  Now is the time for women to
>write about the experiences and from the perspective of women.  Women's
>literature must stand and have not just a validity, but a validity and
>stake equal to that traditionally held by male literature.  The stories and
>experiences of women are as important in their own right."

The difference between the description lengths above shows your obvious
prejudiced leaning toward ethnocentric politics, bordering on a vicious
sterotyping of the other two types.  Your use of phase is also incorrect
in that you see one as more evolutionized that the previous two.  Use
type from now on.  You also act as though these are the only types,
which is far from the truth.

America the melting pot has been discounted as a realistic model for
Immigrant population culture.  Now the trend is to recognize it as a
salad bowl, each ingredient maintaining diistictiveness in the greater
whole.  I see many problems with this also.  Might I add a third model
to consider:  a stew, or soup.  There are many chunks of  the
ingredients, but it is held together by the ever thickening and
delicious broth of our commonality, while every attempt is made to not
let it overcook.  Everyone assumes there is only complacent
assimilationsits and radical seperatists: guess what, there are a lot of
moderate integrationists out there.  Where the recognition of what we
have in common holds precedence over what makes us different, and where,
when it is appropriate for the situation, our differences may add
something (ex: the differences in the dating process and what kind of
relationships we have because we do not have recognitions of same-sex
marriage as the ultimate goal, like hets do, when counseling a strayt
friend on problems with the expectations of their relationships), top
not assume that our differnces are an overriding predeciding factor in
our involvement with each other, and that individuality need not be
totally sacrificed for the sake of working together.


>You've never gone to gay bars?
yes, I have, and it was the most self-destructive time in my entire
life.  i do not however offer that as proof that no one should go to gay
bars, but quite a few people have the same experiences i did, and some
never get out of that behaviour.  Some get so caught up in it,  that
they neglect other important aspects of themselves that need
development, or sacrifice other loves for the greater hole.  In the
future, when I see the ethnic identity deemphasized, I don't see gay
bars as non-existant.  As the centers of existance for motssish
behavior?  no...but if you want to socialize and dance in general with
the intent of maybe meeting someone special (for the night or a
lifetime) or just wanting to enjoy some public motss  intimacy while
dancing with more than one person who wants to do the same.  I don't go
to star trek conventions to find some people interested in DC comics
continuity: my chances of success are lower.  I can't wait for the day
that the bar is no longer the center of gay activity, because more
people are turned off by it.

>Aren't they part of our identity, our
>culture, unappealing as that is to some?
>You've never camped, even just a
>little?  Isn't that part of who we are?

Is it?  How much does that have to do with how and who I love
platonically and erotically?  Does my falling in love with someone
automatically create this behavior pattern of camp or drag as a mating
ritual?  Does my body have a natural affinity towards dancing well to
house and techno?  Was I born to worship the patron Gay Saints Madonna
and Marilyn Monroe? If it weren't the only place in  some cities to meet
other people interested in a liason with a motss, do you think as many
people would go to loud impersonal smokefilled alcoholic havens?  (just
think of how much of our population doesn't go currently:  helluvalot).

Ethnic Identity comes from *grouping* aspects of a person with others
which they have in common.  Being gay is only ONE aspect of my psyche.
It only has one manifestation that I have not added on through the
'cultural experience' of being gay: my erotoplatonic attraction to
members of the same sex.  I equate being gay with 1. liking certain
types of music (I will go to a dance club that places house or techno
over one of country), 2. liking comic books (I collect them, and I go to
some conventions), 3. science fiction (almost the only genre of fiction
or non-fiction that I read, much to my detriment, as I refused to give
anything else a chance), 4. not being able to digest shrimp (but I  can
digest other shellfish), 5. being an abused child (by a father who was
damn good was he was good, and pretty bad when he was bad) and other
traits.

 I do not dictate my every or majority of actions based on any one of
those traits alone.  We are the only group that calls what we are an
ethnic identity and who doesnt have a 'country of origin' from which we
are foreign.  Ethnic Immigrants do however, base where they are from as
a dictate to their actions, (lets take Italy for example) especially
since they are completely at a loss in a foreign land that is going to
be home, and as they were raised and immersed to some degree in the
foreign culture, which had many different customs .  Their children do
to a lesser degree, as they do not have a direct link to Italy.  They
look Italian, they may be Catholic, but they speak American
predominately, and dress American with some Italian influence, they may
live in the ethnic neighborhood that their parents did when they become
adults.  The Grandchildren do not speak any Italian, may be only half
Italian by genetic descent, and may not even be Catholic (but probably
are).  They dress 100% american, and live in the suburbs.  The Great
grandchildren know that they are of Italian, Irish and German descent
(dark eyes and hair, but a tendencey to freckle instead of evenly tan).
Daddy was a Catholic as a kid, but Mommy is Baptist, so they said we
could be anything we wanted.  Catholic mass is pretty, but sometimes
boring, and Baptist churches can be a blast, but it gets weird
sometimes.  I'm taking Italian in high school (it sounds pretty) when I
get older so that Great Gramma Ciccone and I can go to the market
together and haggle with the women there.  Daddy keeps reminding her
that she doesnt have to go everyday as there is a supermarket closer,
and the produce is fresher a lot of the time, but she likes to go, as
her friends are there.  She lets him go to the store though to get
everything else once a week.

As the generations progress, the importance of that origin land lessens,
as it has no direct bearing on the day-to-day, the immediate, the
present.  It was a wonderful filter for culture shock, but the 4th
generation doesnt understand the culture shock that gramma went through,
as they and their parents have been raised 100 and 75% in the Immediate
Culture.

>Summary:  Recognize that there is an us and a them.  Recognize and
>celebrate it.  Change will come through a combination of second phase work
>(the "assimilationists", NGLTF, HRCF) and third phase work (the "radicals",
>QN, ACT-UP).

The only reason there is an us and them is because someone penned us
together as a group, and we let them and now we are letting it progress
further, and more often than not, on our own volition!  We are just
confirming what they thought from the beginning, that we are all the
same, and fundamentally different from them, and foreign, and not "us".
My favorite quote is from a dear friend of mine:  "I may have started
it, but I didn't perpetuate it"

>To be "accepted", they dressed "white", spoke "white"
>English, ignored or only quietly celebrated their wonderful African
>heritage.

Substitute white for:  the American culture, which was contributed to by
more ethnic groups than any other in the histroy of the world.  Yes, it
was founded by white English speaking capitalists, so using that as the
keystone, these other cultures were able to relate to each other as they
arrived. (there needed to be SOME basis of commonality, and why not use
the one that was here first (Amercian Indians notwithstanding).  Yes
some things were sacrificed that were important, but the opportunities
for true social progression were more important, and not possible unless
they were made.  If the USA had been founded by Moslem Africans, then I
am sure that the greater culture would be whitewashed by that culture.

>Well now the black community is reclaiming its culture, it
>heritage.  It's rediscovered that uniquely black manners of dress and
>speech are equally valid as modes of expression and they are in fact
>essential for voicing the black experience.

It's culture?  Which culture?  African culture, or Amerafrican culture?
How many of them are 1st or 2nd generation Amerafricans?  How much does
the tribal practices of a desert culture in the Sahara affect living in
the suburbs of DC?  What is heritage?  It is where the actions of your
predecessors have left you in the socio-economic present, the closet
previous generation being the most important in that placing.  Since the
majority of African Americans are descendants of 19th century slaves,
African culture has very little to do with the present Amerafrican
experience (generational lessening of native homeland applies here too).
 What is more significant is the emanicipation of slaves by Lincoln, and
more signifact the civil rights bill, and more significant how educated
and how much their parents are and they are.

How much of that current culture is directly related to only responding
to the views of whites (qutie a bit: take a look at rap, and blues as
examples)?  How much of gay culture is directly related to responding
and reacting to the prejudices and ignorance of strayt people?  (all of
it I say, as it didnt exist as a group until someone told us we did).
Is that true culture?  Or just a counter-culture, which will inevitably
fail?  How demphasized is the common attributes they and we share with
strayt white culture?  Why are we letting what they think dictate what
we do as a group?

Unity is not produced through division.  United we stand, divided we
fall,  and Humans do not bond with each other based on our differences,
but rather our common attributes.

all we are doing is playing their game with an ethnic identity.  we can
be a group of individuals without being a group.  as a group, we are
letting them keep us that way.


long enough

michael j pastor iii
guest on davids account

------------------------------

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