HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: 4 On Fealty
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1992 23:14:52

    Arval wrote, in response to Ioseph's disquisition on fealty:

 JM> I have two major arguments with this diagram.  First, it implies that all
 JM> fealty in the SCA is a function of official office and rank.  That is
 JM> untrue.  I can swear fealty to or take fealty from anyone I wish,
 JM> regardless of my rank or that of the other party.  A peer, for
 JM> example, can swear fealty to anyone he chooses.

    Incorrect. You have succumbed to the misapplication of the term
    "fealty" common in the SCA. You can swear *homage* or take *homage*
    from whomever you wish; it isn't *fealty* unless a *fee* is involved,
    by definition.

 JM> Second, your chart implies that fealty is transitive; you made this point
 JM> explicit later:

 JM> > In practice, a person in liege-fealty to a Peer who is in
 JM> > liege-fealty to the Crown should be considered "in fealty" to the
 JM> >Crown...

 JM> That is not how fealty works where I come from, and it is not a correct
 JM> characterization of medieval fealty.  The vassal of my vassal is not my
 JM> vassal.

    In this you are correct. Mirabile dictu....

Tadhg, Obelisk

 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: tbarnes@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (thomas wrentmore barnes)
Subject: Re: Translation speculation
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1992 10:51:58 GMT

In article <725184093.AA00000@blkcat.UUCP> Riki.Beth.Stein@f906.n142.z1.fidonet.org (Riki Beth Stein) writes:
>And then David Director Friedman said...
> DDF> the most important. I do not know what a good Arabic term for "King"
> DDF> would be. "Malek," I believe, literally means "King" (I donUt speak
> DDF> Arabic, unfortunately), but I think it is usually used as one of the
> DDF> terms for God. "Caliph" 
>
>I wouldn't be surprised if "Malek" literally translated meant "King," as
>it seems to be a cognate of the Hebrew word "Melech," which *does* mean
>King.  As for its use as a term for God, you would know far better than I.
>

Gentles,

I am currently reading a book called "The Arab View of the Crusades"
(author forgotten at the moment). Here is what I have gathered of Arabic
titles c. 1100.

Atabeg - the "basic" title of most of the Seljuk rulers in and around
the Holy Land. It originally meant "father of the prince" (ata = father,
beg = prince, presumably), and originally referred to a regent to a
young prince. Of course, since regency meant, essentially, rulership
(once the young prince was conviently disposed of), the title gradually
gained the meaning of just "ruler". I don't know exactly how it would be
translated into the European heirarchy of titles, but the Arabic writers
of the time referred to the Frankish counts of Eddessa, Antioch and Tyre
as "atabegs".

Caliph - descendent of the Prophet. This one is hard to describe in
European terms without offending someone. The caliph had the moral
authority of the Pope (more or less) in spiritual matters for the Sunni
sect of Islam. He had the political authority (under the Seljuks) of the
Japanese Emperors (i.e. generally none at all). Generally the local
atabeg ran things for the Caliph, though a Caliph did lead a rebellion
against the atabeg of Damascus in this period. 

Malik - rarely used. It was a title of great respect. A Malik wasn't
just any pissant local princelet, he was a great and powerful ruler. I
guess that if you knocked off enough rival atabegs you got to be "malik"
when there wasn't anyone around to say that you weren't:).

This is all sketchy and is based on a partial reading of one book, but
it might help. I guess that a Prince would use "Beg" or "Bey" as the
equivalent title and that a king would use "Malik" (flattery;). Anyone
else entitled to a crown would use the term "atabeg".   

Lothar \|/
        0
From: branwen@cerebus.ccc.amdahl.com (Karen Williams)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: HELP! name searching.
Date: 22 Dec 92 18:15:27 GMT
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA

Bjalfi writes:

> If anyone reading this list is
> trying to come up with a persona name, PLEASE dig up a copy of the
> Decameron, the Canterbury Tales, Egil's Saga, the Tales of the Thousand
> Nights and a Night, the Song of Roland, or whatever medieval literature
> appeals to you, and read it through paying attention to names you like.
> You can come up with truly lovely stuff that way, which is always a
> Good Thing.

I also recommend Gerald of Wales's "Journey Through Wales/A Description
of Wales." It's half history, half stories that people told him on the
trip, and very cool.

Branwen ferch Emrys
The Mists, the West

--
                                          Karen Williams
                                          branwen@cerebus.ras.amdahl.com
"Don't whine. Warrior women speak in a husky whisper."
  -- Brat Pack #3
From: Beth.Appleton@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Beth Appleton)
Sender: FredGate@ocitor.fidonet
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Midrealm Crown Tourney customs
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 16:29:48

 G> The Middle doesn't really have a mid-level fighting award, in the sense
 G> of the Eastrealm Tyger Combatant or the others I've heard mentioned;
 G> the Dragon's Tooth is for (essentially) doing something impressive, not
 G> for being 'notable' in general conduct.
 Personally, I'm not really convinced that a mid-level fighting award is 
 necessary.  Generally speaking, a mid-level fighter is getting a fair 
 amount of recognition.  The only reason for the mid-level arts and 
 services awards is that those people don't get the kind of regular 
 attention that a mid-level fighter does.  <rebuttals to this thesis 
 welcomed>
...
 G> There is also that it would take a truly *gifted* bad king to put a
 G> dent in the SCA beauracracy of any of the kingdoms or principalities
 G> that I've heard anything about; the 'bad Crown' filter is hardly
 G> necessary in these well regulated times.  :]
 From Crowns I've observed, the filters that Ansteorra has are still 
 necessary.  We require <this is from memory, and may have changed> 1 yr 
 in the SCA, 1 yr in kingdom, plus a minimum tenure as an officer or 
 deputy.  Considering the major aggravation caused by a semi-recent king 
 who just barely slid under the wire, that minimum may be too low.  It is  possible, at least here where we have small Crown Tourneys, for a good 
 fighter without a good SCA background to win.  It's one thing to have 
 somebody who knows what the system is muck around with the structure -- 
 it gets really bad when they don't even understand what it is they're 
 mucking with.
     (p.s., said king was originally a black belt)
        Gwenllian Cwmystwyth, Steppes, Ansteorra

 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
From: awkerr@zia.aoc.nrao.edu (Alan Kerr)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period Calendar Wanted
Date: 31 Dec 92 23:13:46 GMT
Organization: National Radio Astronomy Observatory, Socorro NM

In article <1992Dec31.192102.24652@pbhya.PacBell.COM> whheydt@PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt) writes:
>In article <1992Dec31.172333.13978@zia.aoc.nrao.edu> awkerr@zia.aoc.nrao.edu (Alan Kerr) writes:
>>In article <1992Dec31.162934.22106@pbhya.PacBell.COM> whheydt@PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt) writes:
>>>Yup.  A sundial.  It was the development of mechanical clocks that
>>>changed things--eventually--to an all-hours-are-equal system.
>>>Remember that most of history is before mechanical clocks.
>>
>>...OK, I've seen the answer of 'sundial' a couple of times now.  But
>>as far as I know of, it does *not* answer the question.  A sundial
>>*will* self-adjust to the streaching and shrinking of *days*, but I
>>don't think that I've ever seen one that would adjust the day into
>>**12 equal hours**.   Does this type of sundial exist?
>
>Gee--and I thought all days had a Sidereal Period of (modern) 23 hours,
>56 minutes....    :-)
>
>Think about how you read a sundial--and how you mark it to be read....

...and think about what was asked and what I asked.  every sundial
that I have seen has had *ONE* set of markings on it that correspond
to the *modern* concept of 'hours'.

If you need a concrete example,  pretend that it's the autumn equinox,
by a modern clock the sun will rise at 6am and set at 6pm.  The 12
'hours' of that day are each 60 modern minutes long.  Now suppose that
we are in a location (latitude) where on the winter solstice, the sun
rises at 9am and sets at 3pm.  The 12 'hours' of that day are each 30
modern minutes long.  I stated that I have never seen a sundial that
had *various* markings for the changing length of the 'hours' of the
day and asked if such a sundial did indeed exist.

Aldric MacGlynn

-- 
Alan W. Kerr                               awkerr@aoc.nrao.edu
National Radio Astronomy Observatory       awkerr@nrao.bitnet
Socorro, NM, USA                           uunet!nrao.edu!awkerr
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: wesommer@mc.lcs.mit.EDU
Subject: distribution test.
Followup-To: /dev/null
Reply-To: sca-request@mc.lcs.mit.edu
Organization: The Internet
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 22:44:26 GMT

Please ignore this; testing mail->news gateway.

DO NOT REPLY TO THIS.  I WILL BE LOOKING FOR IT IN NEWS AND WILL KNOW
IF IT WORKS.


Xref: sparky rec.org.sca:17079 soc.history:10394
From: c34657b@saha.hut.fi (Tuomas Viljanen)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca,soc.history
Subject: Hussites (Re: Primitive Firearms)
Date: 27 Dec 92 14:44:50 GMT
Organization: The Nibelungenlied Incorporated

In article <1992Dec24.165440.14286@epas.toronto.edu> nusbache@epas.utoronto.ca (Aryk Nusbacher) writes:
>In article <1hblskINN283@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> cc697@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Eric Oppen) writes:

>This effectiveness is the reason that the Hussites established the
>Kingdom of God on Earth which lasted to the present day in Bohemia and
>Moravia.  Or did it?

I would remember that after Jan Zizka died (plague) the Hussites were divided 
in two parties, of which the larger party made a treaty with the Emperor and
Pope, while the smaller party (the Taborites), went on to the bitter end and
was effectively crushed in the battle of Czesky Brod, 1434, in which their
religious leader, bishop Prokop the Bald was killed and their sacred chalice
was captured. The captured Hussites were herded into nearby barns and
burned alive.



  ++ Tuomas Viljanen                     ++ For a battle like Crecy, you do ++
  ++ Lahderanta 20 A 19                  ++ not need a military genius like ++
  ++ SF-02720 Espoo FINLAND              ++ Edward III. All you need is an  ++
  ++ 358-0-592175 or c34657b@saha.hut.fi ++ idiot like Duke of Alencon.     ++
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: schuldy@progress.COM (Mark Schuldenfrei)
Subject: Re: Heraldic questions...
Organization: Progress Software Corp.
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 16:48:05 GMT

Tadhg wrote:
  Because this *isn't* Hungary, this is Ansteorra, or the East, or wherever;  
  in essence, because this isn't Hungary, it's the SCA, and the SCA (like  
  Hungary and every other mundane jurisdiction) has developed its own  
  more-or-less consistent style that doesn't include everything that  
  everyone else is doing. Neither Lyon nor Garter would grant a green mount  
  on a blue field, even to a Hungarian.

Tadhg, if I recall correctly, this is inconsistent with your previous
position on naming conventions.

You have consistently used pejoratives to describe non-period naming
practices that are not authentic or documentable, lamenting that
they are TSCA (Typical SCA).

So, on the one hand, you seem to maintain that modelling of period behavior
takes precedence over SCA style when creating names, but the inverse when
creating armory?

	Tibor
--
Mark Schuldenfrei (schuldy@progress.com)
[I'm just showin' you my opinions: this ain't a gift]
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: information wanted
From: nemesis <JLF129@psuvm.psu.edu>
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1993 20:15:41 EST
Rationale: Hack and Slay!!

I am trying to locate the group or groups that would be located in the Austin,
TX area.  I am trying to locate a friend who might have joined one of the
groups down there ... I'd appreciate any information about who to contact.

Thanks for any help


/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
As a hero you have a greater probability of survival.
You are allowed to make daring escapes,
overcome great odds,                                     Signy inn heppna
survive certain death ...                                aka Jen Farrell
useful perks like that!                              jlf129@psuvm.psu.edu
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman)
Subject: Re: Heraldic questions...
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1992 16:12:50 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

Greetings from Arval!  Esmeralda had written:

> Different areas had different flavors to their heraldic display. If a
> person has a Hungarian persona, and likes the heraldry of their chosen
> country/period then what is the basis for the CoA to state that it was
> just a fashion and not a general practice?

Tadhg replied:

> Because this *isn't* Hungary, this is Ansteorra, or the East, or
> wherever; in essence, because this isn't Hungary, it's the SCA, and the
> SCA (like Hungary and every other mundane jurisdiction) has developed its
> own more-or-less consistent style that doesn't include everything that
> everyone else is doing...  Our period deals with "Western Europe", and
> what is a general practice in Hungary may be (and is, in this particular
> instance) an exception when "Western Europe" is the context.

Thank you, Tadhg.  Your position is now crystal clear, and I agree that
this is how Laurel and much of the College of Arms views its role in the
SCA: "Our period deals with Western Europe".  That is precisely the
problem: The corporation says that our period is "western culture", which
clearly includes more than just western Europe.  The College of Arms is
restricting the scope of the Society and in doing so is overstepping its
mandate.  Corpora states that Laurel's job is to develop rules that
"support the historical recreations of the Society".  Not "the historical
recreations of the College of Arms" and not "the subset of the historical
recreations of the Society that appeal to Laurel", but the historical
recreation of the ENTIRE Society.

You are quite correct that each medieval heraldic jurisdiction developed a
consistent style.  The SCA is not a medieval heraldic jurisdiction.  We are
not creating, we are re-creating.  Our goal as an organization is to study
and reproduce what they did, not to create something new. 

You are interested in developing a consistent style, and as an individual
artisan you are welcome to pursue that goal, but that is not the purpose of
the Society nor is it the purpose of the College of Arms.  Corpora does not
direct Laurel to develop a consistent style.  You prefer to deal with the
armory of western Europe, and as an individual artisan you are welcome to
choose your matter as you wish, but that is not the scope of the Society.
Corpora does not empower Laurel to re-define the scope of the Society.
Individually we may study, re-create, and teach whatever we wish; if we
accept the responsibility of being officers of the corporation then we are
bound to support all of the Society.

===========================================================================
Arval Benicoeur                                       mittle@watson.ibm.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: dburgdor@cwis.unomaha.edu (Darryl Burgdorf)
Subject: Re: non-fighting rulers
Organization: University of Nebraska at Omaha
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1993 17:02:00 GMT


Unto (Lord?) Graydon, and the rest of the Rialto, come greetings!


> Lord Elwyn, pray, why is being royalty the appropriate reward for all
> excellence?
> 
> The poetry that moves this great clanking anachronism has room for a
> lot of things; permit me to doubt that it has room for 'I am Arthur,
> King of the Britons, because I was given a set of carpentry tools
> by the Lady of the Lake and am the second best woodworker the world
> will ever see.'  (He can't be better than St. Joseph, and Jesus is
> unfair competition. :)
> 
> Royalty are only special because you think they are special.
> ( I mean, come on, what are the going to do - ride over and burn
> down your house?)
> 
> Graydon


I must admit, I truly like the carpentry line.  ;)

I am not at all sure that being royalty is "the appropriate reward" for
all excellence.  I simply feel that, as (arguably) the highest station to
which one can rise, it ought to be open to those who excell in *any* area,
rather than only one particular one.  One can attain a peerage, after all,
through excellence in any endeavor; why cannot one likewise aspire to the
throne similarly?

Royalty are not special only because I "think they are special".  They are
special because the "mythos" of the SCA tries very hard to *make* them
special.  I didn't give them regalia or ceremony .... the SCA did.


	In service,

		Ld Elwyn of Thornbury

		(who has no delusions about ever becoming King,
		no matter *how* the choice is made.)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: doconnor@sedona.intel.com (Dennis O'Connor)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: You know you're in the SCA when:
Date: 25 Dec 92 21:32:21
Organization: Intel i960(tm) Architecture
NNTP-Posting-Host: potato.intel.com
In-reply-to: frnk@cs1.bradley.edu's message of 25 Dec 92 17:48:58 GMT


frnk@cs1.bradley.edu (Paul Ondercin) writes:
]    You know you're in the SCA when:
]
]     You catch yourself mentally criticising the garb used by the children
] during the Christmas Pagent before the Midnight Mass.

I have personally made a buy/no-buy decision on a laserdisc of a movie
based on whether it was likely to have authentic depictions of armor
and cosutme of my culture and period.

The movie was unfortuneately two centuries too early.

I always seem to fid myself looking a period movies in this way.
--
Dennis O'Connor			doconnor@sedona.intel.com
From: Beth.Appleton@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Beth Appleton)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Home-brewing techniques
Date: 29 Dec 92 18:19:28 GMT


 Milord, I would gladly reply to your request for e-mailed brewing 
 techniques, but I'm gated through Fido, and I can't see your address 
 unless you specifically post it in the body of your message.
     Gwenllian Cwmystwyth ferch Morfudd
     <oops, lost track of *my* address -- later....>

 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
From: hjfeld@acs.bu.edu (harold feld)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period Calendar Wanted
Date: 4 Jan 93 02:27:16 GMT
Organization: Boston University, Boston, MA, USA

In shame and embarassment do I come before this most august assembley.
I have made an error and crave pardon.

In article <105941@bu.edu> hjfeld@acs.bu.edu (harold feld)(I) writes:


>However, for such as us, this is not possible.  since we Jews keep
>the division of the day into twelve equal parts and the division of the\
>night into twelve equal parts (the parts of the night however are
>usually described as four watches of equal length rather than as
>twelve hours)

Upon checking my references, I find the night is divided into 
3 watches, not 4.  I refer all who wish to persue the matter to
Tractate Brachot, First Chapter.

My most humble appologies,
Yaakov

From: Tim@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Tim)
Sender: FredGate@ocitor.fidonet
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Heraldic questions...
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 07:51:02

    Simon wrote:

 JB> Well, I think we can all agree that some things are bad pottery, even if
 JB> they were done in period --- period potters must have produced their share
 JB> of cracked pots.  On the other hand, in that case we can define bad as
 JB> "not useful".

 JB> What this says to me is that the Society ought to make an effort to find
 JB> out / decide what we consider "useful" in terms of heraldry.  Which is one
 JB> of the things Arval has been saying all along....

 There IS a consensus regarding what is "useful" with respect to heraldry
 in the SCA; Arval just disagrees with it, apparently because it doesn't
 include everything that was ever done in period in one big grab-bag.

 One of Laurel's oft-repeated maxims is "We follow the general practices,
 not the exceptions", and red bends and chiefs on blue fields were
 exceptions, not general practices; considered in the context of western
 European heraldry as a whole, regional practices such as green mounts on
 blue fields, however much they may have been the height of fashion in
 Hungary or wherever, were still exceptions rather than general practices.

 I have made a modest contribution in that directio with my "Ten Word
 Blazon Test", the rationale for which is "if they did it a lot, they had a
 term for it; if it takes you a lot of words to describe it, then they
 didn't have a term for it, and so they probably didn't do it a lot, and so
 it probably isn't good style".

    Tadhg, Obelisk

 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Subject: Re: Primitive FireArms
Reply-To: whheydt@PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 21:13:10 GMT

In article <pa124548.579.725741149@utkvm1.utk.edu> pa124548@utkvm1.utk.edu (T. Archer) writes:
>In article <DOCONNOR.92Dec30085832@potato.sedona.intel.com> doconnor@sedona.intel.com (Dennis O'Connor) writes:
>>Recurves are period. They were the usual bow used by the
>>Turks and the Mongols, as well as other peoples.
>
>Could you document that?  The last time the issue was raised, one of the "
>purists" on this forum screamed bloody blue murder because to him, an "
>authenticist,"  a line of archers with recurves didn't "look mideveal."

The recent--within the last year or so--Scientific American article on
bows dicussed this.  You see... *Both* opinions are correct.
Composite recurve bows are period.  Some of them go back to or before
Homeric Greece (I've seen speculation that that's the story behind
Ulysses' bow--it was a recurve and they'd got out of use in the area
and none of the suitors knew *how* to string it, rather than being too
stiff.  That is--it was a family hierloom and Ulysses knew how to use
it).

Howver, they look quite a bit different to the trained eye than
*modern* recurves.  If it comes to that, most modern self-bows have
their differences from their period counterparts (aside from draw
weight that is).

	--Hal

        Hal Ravn, Province of the Mists, West Kingdom
        Wilson H. Heydt, Jr.,  Albany, CA 94706,  510/524-8321 (home)
-- 
Hal Heydt                    |    
Analyst, Pacific*Bell        |            You!
510-823-5447                 |    Out of the Gene Pool!
whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM    |
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca