HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: "Frank J. Nagy:VAX Wizard&Loose Cannon" <NAGY@FNDCD.BITNET>
Newsgroups: vmsnet.internals
Subject: Re: Call for partly-baked ideas:  $QIO replacement?
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 07:11 CST
Organization: Macro32<==>Vmsnet.Internals Gateway
X-Gateway-Source-Info: Mailing List

In article <1992Dec16.113301.977@cmkrnl.com>, jeh@cmkrnl.com writes:
> Are you happy with the $QIO system service?  [...]

While I don't have any ideas as to replacements for $QIO, I have
a couple of points to make about any I/O system.

The first is that the basic I/O system should (or must?) provide
asynchronous I/O services to the user.  While it is true that at
its heart, the kernel I/O system is asynchronous, the idea here is
to provide those capabilities to the user.  This is true of VMS $QIO
with event flags and/or completion ASTs and is a powerful feature for
constructing high performance (both fast and rapid response) servers
which run on multi-user systems.  In addition, one can always create
a synchronous I/O library on an asynchronous base (but the other way
around gets pretty hairy).

Oops, now I've forgotten my other points.  Another time then...

= Dr. Frank J. Nagy   "VAX Guru & Wizard, Loose Cannon"  {{Group Leader!}}
= Fermilab Computing Division/Distributed Computing Dept/Special Projects Grp
= HEPnet/SPAN: FNDCD::NAGY (43123::NAGY) or FNAL::NAGY (43009::NAGY)
= Internet: NAGY@FNAL.FNAL.GOV            = BitNet: NAGY@FNAL
=   -or-    NAGY@FNDCD.FNAL.GOV              -or-   NAGY@FNDCD
= USnail: Fermilab POB 500 MS/234 Batavia, IL 60510
From: SYSMGR@IPG.PH.KCL.AC.UK
Newsgroups: vmsnet.internals
Subject: re: call for half-baked ideas
Date: Fri, 18 DEC 92 20:04:38 BST
Organization: Macro32<==>Vmsnet.Internals Gateway
X-Gateway-Source-Info: Mailing List

In answer to the original question: I can't see much wrong with the basic
structure of the $QIO service.  This is a separate question to whether
the drivers that one accesses through it are correctly designed, and indeed
whether they should be drivers at all. The QIO interface to the file system
is the most obviously inelegant one. Like Glenn, I'd like to see VMS support
more file-systems in a much more integrated way, perhaps via loadable
filesystem drivers/XQPs/ACPs/whatever and documentation and support for
writing them.

Back to $QIO, the interface is a lot more powerful than a lot of folks
realize. Itemlist IOs are just scratching the surface of what is possible.
I once write a driver with an  embedded interpreter, which  executed
instructions, including conditionals and loops, read from a command
buffer passed as one of the arguments. In addition, the driver mapped the user's
data buffer with realime SPTs, and was capable of firing ASTs (other than
completion ASTs) at the issuing process. The way one used this was for
the driver to decide what an interrupt meant, to get vital data out of
hardware registers and into the user's buffer within interrupt-service-routine
latency, and then to AST the process to let it know that the data buffer
held some more data. The process-based code would eventually get to
execute (milliseconds later, but before the termination of the IO) and could
keep the user posted on what the hardware was doing, move data from the
IO buffer to disk, apply complicated numerical modelling to decide whether
to abort the IO... just about anything you wanted.

The hardware in question was a CAMAC crate. This driver structure permitted
a nonprivileged and non-expert programmer to program the handling of LAMs
(interrupts) with latencies of around 10 microseconds, without any risk
of crashing the system. (The interpreter couldn't be programmed to
access memory outside of the QIO'ed data buffer, and wouldn't interpret more
than a reasonable number of instructions between waits for interrupts, so
infinite loops at hardware IPL also couldn't happen).

I don't know whether these ideas could be useful other than for interfacing
to physics experiments, but the mere fact that it was possible says a lot
about how well thought out is the basic design of IO processing in VMS.

        Merry VAXmas,

                Nigel Arnot

                NRA%ipg.ph.kcl.ac.uk@nsfnet-relay.ac.uk   (internet)
                NRA%uk.ac.kcl.ph.ipg@ukacrl.bitnet        (bitnet)
From: <mahan@TGV.COM>
Newsgroups: vmsnet.internals
Subject: Re: Another newbie C internals question
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 92 12:02:21 PST
Organization: Macro32<==>Vmsnet.Internals Gateway
X-Gateway-Source-Info: Mailing List

In article <1992Dec15.161738.1258@mwk.uucp> you write:
#
#  OK, I'm still converting thousands of lines of MACRO-32 to DEC C on
#an Alpha. I am now wondering about "library functions" such as memcpy,
#strncpy and the like.
#
#  Is there any reason to think they would be safe to call in kernel
#mode, at high IPL, and with spinlocks held? Or would that be more like
#expecting lib$get_input to work in the middle of a driver?
#

It is absolutely not safe to call any of the C RTL routines from kernel mode.
Some might work, others like sprintf, horrible mangale the stack.  This is
not good as on the Alpha there is nothing to clean up after you and get the
stack back in the proper order.  You should determine what it is you really
need and possible 1) Write the code yourself or 2) make use of the OTS$ routines
to do this for you.  Also, you what to take advantage of the linkage
pragma to enforce "light-weight" call frames.

--
Patrick L. Mahan

--- TGV Window Washer ------------------------------- Mahan@TGV.COM ---------

Waking a person unnecessarily should not be considered  - Lazarus Long
a capital crime.  For a first offense, that is            From the Notebooks of
                                                          Lazarus Long

Newsgroups: vmsnet.internals
From: silverm@bcstec.ca.boeing.com (Jeff Silverman)
Subject: Re: Call for partly-baked ideas: $QIO replacement?
Organization: Boeing Computer Services
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 07:56:19 GMT

jeh@cmkrnl.com writes:
>Are you happy with the $QIO system service?  If you were building a new O/S
>from scratch, would you make the "basic I/O call" that's available for 
>non-privileged programs look like $QIO, or like something else?  If the latter,
>what?  If you could specify a new I/O interface to supplement $QIO in VMS, what
>would it look like?
>	--- Jamie Hanrahan, Kernel Mode Consulting, San Diego CA
>Chair, Programming and Internals Working Group, U.S. DECUS VMS Systems SIG 
>Internet:  jeh@cmkrnl.com, hanrahan@eisner.decus.org, or jeh@crash.cts.com

Jamie,

	What an interesting question.  The way I see it, you have essentially
two ways of building an I/O interface: the way VMS/RSX do it and the way
UNIX/Ada/CP/M (I haven't studied MS-DOS or Windows NT or MVS closely enough
to decide which catagories they go into).  With VMS/RSX, you have a mechanism
by which an interrupt can be safely delivered to the process, while UNIX
and Ada really don't - you build tasks or threads which block until I/O is
completed.
	I assume that you are planning on building an O/S which can support
any language: C, Ada, FORTRAN, COBOL, Pascal, etc.  If you are building an
O/S which is oriented to a specific langauge, such as UCSD Pascal, Ada, or
Modula-2 then you have a simpler problem - don't bother providing any
functionality not supported by the semantics of the language.

	There is another aspect to the question which I just thought of.  One
of the characteristics of VMS which has always struck me is that number of
datastructures which get passed either by reference or by descriptor (VMS
is the only environment I know of which uses descriptors).  There are some
advantages and disadvantages of building a complicated data structure: the
overhead of stuffing the answers into the data blocks and then pulling them
out on the other side of the call.  Would it be easier to simply have long
argument lists?  It certainly seems more reliable to build the data structures
because the compiler can do some checking for you (for example, attempting to
stuff a 32 bit constant into a 16 bit space), and the compiler can keep track
of placing things in the right place.

	Jamie, why do you ask?

Jeff Silverman, Boeing Commercial Airplane
From: bill@bill.ab.umd.edu (Bill Bame)
Newsgroups: vmsnet.internals
Subject: Re: Received Bytes Accounting
Date: 18 Dec 92 19:24:48 GMT
Reply-To: bill@office.ab.umd.edu
Organization: M.I.E.M.S.S.

In article <01GSFKS4THCYAFTSR3@accuwx.com>, GOODMAN@ACCUWX.COM (Paladin) writes:
>None of the process accounting data that VMS records is a fair
>and accurate way to charge a user for use of a time-shared Vax

That all depends on how you define fair and accurate.

<description of why some accounting data is not fair or accurate>

>So what is really needed is a count of the bytes written to the user's
>terminal.

So what you're saying is that a person who logs on, reads 10K worth
of mail messages, then logs off should be charged for 10K bytes, while
someone who logs in and does the following...

$ SAS HUGEANALYSIS.SAS
<pause while CPU uses 17:30:15.31 in CPU time>
$ LO

Should only be charged for 26 bytes!?

--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
William P. Bame                    | sneakernet: William P. Bame
internet: bill@bill.ab.umd.edu     |             M.I.E.M.S.S.
          bbame@achi1.ab.umd.edu   |             22 South Greene Street
AT&T    : [Work] (410) 328-3062    |             Baltimore, MD 21201
CIS     : 71620,425                |             Room: T1R55
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: jeh@cmkrnl.com
Newsgroups: vmsnet.internals
Subject: Re: Call for partly-baked ideas:  $QIO replacement?
Date: 16 Dec 92 11:34:39 PST
Organization: Kernel Mode Consulting, San Diego, CA

In article <1992Dec16.113301.977@cmkrnl.com>, jeh@cmkrnl.com writes:
> Are you happy with the $QIO system service?  [...]

p.s. -- I have my own ideas, but I'm going to hold off posting them for a 
while; I don't want to slant the discussion in the beginning. 

	--- Jamie Hanrahan, Kernel Mode Consulting, San Diego CA
Chair, Programming and Internals Working Group, U.S. DECUS VMS Systems SIG 
Internet:  jeh@cmkrnl.com, hanrahan@eisner.decus.org, or jeh@crash.cts.com
Uucp:  ...{crash,eisner,uunet}!cmkrnl!jeh
Newsgroups: vmsnet.internals
Subject: Re: Why does this code crash with ACCVIO?
From: jeh@cmkrnl.com
Date: 12 Dec 92 20:39:45 PST
Organization: Kernel Mode Consulting, San Diego, CA

In article <00964FAA.F91C1440.10804@trex.oscs.montana.edu>, "Michael L. Hitch" <osymh%trex.oscs.montana.edu@MTSUNIX1.BITNET> writes:
> =>
> => >                                    I can manually deposit values at
> => > location pointed to by dest/r0 (using debugger 'deposit *dest=...'),
> => > so it is not a invalid address.
> =>
> => But now for the interesting !
> =>
> => The above test do NOT test what you think it tests at all !
> =>
> => The debugger is capable of depositing values in NOWRT psects !
> ....
> => This little feature has been around for all the VMS versions I have
> => used and can be quite usefull.
> =>
> => I once got the explanation that it is due to the fact, that the NOWRT
> => psect actually means user-mode:readonly and the debugger runs in
> => supervisor-mode !

The debugger does not run in supervisor mode.  

NOWRT psects normally cause pages to be protected "UR", which means user (or
any inner mode) read, nobody write.  

The debugger can write into such pages the same way your program can:  Use the
$SETPRT system service to change the protection mask on the pages of interest
to UW, do your writes, then change them back to UR.  

You can do this to any pages mapped by your process as long as they're owned by
user mode, are not shareable (non-CRF) pages defined by a global section, and
several other restrictions (see the System Services Reference Manual).  

	--- Jamie Hanrahan, Kernel Mode Consulting, San Diego CA
Chair, Programming and Internals Working Group, U.S. DECUS VMS Systems SIG 
Internet:  jeh@cmkrnl.com, hanrahan@eisner.decus.org, or jeh@crash.cts.com
Uucp:  ...{crash,eisner,uunet}!cmkrnl!jeh
From: mahan@TGV.COM (Patrick L. Mahan)
Newsgroups: vmsnet.internals
Subject: Re: Alpha VMS listings (was VMS Version 5.5 Listing Kit is shipping)
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 92 13:16:07 PST
Organization: Macro32<==>Vmsnet.Internals Gateway
X-Gateway-Source-Info: Mailing List

In article <1992Dec14.223849.965@cmkrnl.com> you write:
#
#In article <9204210609.AA29028@relay2.UU.NET>,
# "(Jon Pinkley, Westinghouse (216)486-8300 x1335)" writes:
#> QB-001AB-E8     VMS LISTING CD KIT & LICENSE
#>                 VMS Listings Kit on Compact Disc (one VMS version)
#> 
#> QB-001AB-Q8     VMS LISTING SERVICE - CDROM
#>                 VMS Listing Kit on Compact Disc Service (updates)
#
#Did anyone get the numbers for the VMS-Alpha AXP listings kit?  Brian Breton
#announced its availability at the DECUS Symposium last week, but I missed that
#session.  
#
#The VMS AXP listing kit is orderable and shipping *now* -- two copies of it
#were on hand at the Symposium.  
#
#Digital's effort to make this kit available so early in the VMS AXP product
#cycle, along with other, related efforts (the internals "update express"
#manuals, the internals manual itself, the new VMScluster internals manual
#(preliminary edition was available at the DECUS store; final edition is due out
#in Spring), the "file system internals" manual by Kirby McCoy, etc., etc.), is
#just plain wonderful.  Just you TRY to get source listings or internals 
#documentation out of Sun, or HP, or IBM, or Microsoft, or....
#
#> If you are serious about VMS internals, the listings kit is
#> indispensible.  See your Sales rep for prices.  (No, I don't work
#> for DEC)
#
#Yep.  And the AXP listings will be invaluable for anyone who is porting code,
#especially privileged code, to Alpha.  At $2200, who in their right mind would
#pass it up???  
#

The order numbers for the OpenVMS AXP v1.0 Source listings are

	QB-MT1AB-E8 OpenVMS AXP BAS SRC LST & CD
	QT-MT1AB-Q8 OpenVMS AXP BAS Src Upd CDROM

I can personnally say they made our port to the Alpha *MUCH* easier that it
would have been (esp. since the 1st ed of Ruth's VMS for Alpha Platforms
Internals and Data Structures didn't have the chapter on memory management.)

--
Patrick L. Mahan

--- TGV Window Washer ------------------------------- Mahan@TGV.COM ---------

Waking a person unnecessarily should not be considered  - Lazarus Long
a capital crime.  For a first offense, that is            From the Notebooks of
							  Lazarus Long
Newsgroups: vmsnet.internals
Subject: Another newbie C internals question
From: gleason@mwk.uucp
Date: 15 Dec 92 16:17:38 CST
Organization: M. W. Kellogg, Houston TX


  OK, I'm still converting thousands of lines of MACRO-32 to DEC C on
an Alpha. I am now wondering about "library functions" such as memcpy,
strncpy and the like.

  Is there any reason to think they would be safe to call in kernel
mode, at high IPL, and with spinlocks held? Or would that be more like
expecting lib$get_input to work in the middle of a driver?

Lee K. Gleason
Control-G Consultants
gleason@mwk.uucp
Newsgroups: vmsnet.internals
Subject: Re: Keeping command verbs in spawned processes
From: jms@carat.arizona.edu (A virtually vegetal non-entity)
Date: 14 Dec 1992 13:31 MST  
Reply-To: jms@Arizona.EDU
Distribution: world,local
Organization: University of Arizona MIS Department - Mosaic Group
X-Lunar-Date: 3 days, 10 hours, 9 minutes since the full moon
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50A   

In article <01GRWSYADBSY90MY4Y@LTUVAX.BITNET>, Donley Computer Center <RON@LTUVAX.BITNET> writes...
>Joel Snyder says:
> 
>>Third, there is no simple way to UN-SET COMMAND, unless you're
>>willing to parse the CLD file.
> 
>Unless I'm missing something, and not that it's germaine to the problem at
>hand, but what about SET COMMAND/DELETE=(verb[,...])?
> 

OK, let's suppose we have a CLD file like (for example) MULTINET.CLD.  Now,
to turn it on, I know to type "SET COMMAND MULTINET."  To turn it off,
I need to read through MULTINET.CLD, and manually (or through a program)
write appropriate SET COMMAND/DELETE lines.  I wouldn't call that simple.
What you'd like is "SET COMMAND/DELETE MULTINET.CLD," but there is no
such command.  Ergo, my suggestion that "there is no SIMPLE way to
un-set..."

Joel M Snyder, 1103 E Spring Street, Tucson, AZ, 85719 
Phone: 602.882.4094 (voice) .4095 (FAX) .4093 (data)
BITNET: jms@Arizona  Internet: jms@arizona.edu  SPAN: 47541::telcom::jms
Yow!  Is my fallout shelter termite proof?
From: gjc@mitech.com (George J. Carrette)
Newsgroups: vmsnet.internals
Subject: Re: Received Bytes Accounting
Date: 18 Dec 92 12:58:46 GMT
Organization: Mitech Corporation, Concord MA

In article <01GSFKS4THCYAFTSR3@accuwx.com>, Paladin <GOODMAN@ACCUWX.COM> writes:
> None of the process accounting data that VMS records is a fair
> and accurate way to charge a user for use of a time-shared Vax:

Why don't you just make all your interactive users go through a 
program that you hack up that goes through a PTY?

Hack up a version of one of those session logging programs to
add whatever perceived-value resource intelligence you feel like
using.

> For most users this "perceived session value" would be
> related to how much data they receive on their terminal.


Or perhaps most users connect to your system via TELNET?
Just hack up the telnet server to record the info you want to record.


-gjc
Newsgroups: vmsnet.internals
Subject: Re: Alpha VMS listings (was VMS Version 5.5 Listing Kit is shipping)
From: jms@carat.arizona.edu (A virtually vegetal non-entity)
Date: 17 Dec 1992 11:54 MST  
Reply-To: jms@Arizona.EDU
Distribution: world,local
Organization: University of Arizona MIS Department - Mosaic Group
X-Lunar-Date: 6 days, 8 hours, 30 minutes since the full moon
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50A   

In article <1992Dec14.223849.965@cmkrnl.com>, jeh@cmkrnl.com writes...
> 
>Did anyone get the numbers for the VMS-Alpha AXP listings kit?  Brian Breton
>announced its availability at the DECUS Symposium last week, but I missed that
>session.  
> 

I just happen to have these numbers:

QB-MT1AB-E8	OpenVMS AXP Source Listings Kit and Licence on CD
QB-MT1AB-Q8	OpenVMS AXP Source Listings Kit on CD Service

Here is the censoring policy:

You don't get:
- trade secrets, unusually innovative technology, or sensitive algorithms
- LMF 
- 3rd party sw
- patent pending code
- sw for unannounced hardware 

You also only get the license for a standalone or vaxcluster system; if you
want to view the files at another site, you have to buy another kit. 

CD1 includes [V10.A*.LIS] to [V10.R*.LIS] and DECwindows.  CD2 includes
[V10.S*.LIS] to [V10.X*.LIS].  CD2 also includes [VEST*.LIS], which is
the source & vested binaries for anything that got VESTed instead of
ported.

jms

Joel M Snyder, 1103 E Spring Street, Tucson, AZ, 85719 
Phone: 602.882.4094 (voice) .4095 (FAX) .4093 (data)
BITNET: jms@Arizona  Internet: jms@arizona.edu  SPAN: 47541::telcom::jms
Yow!  I just went below the poverty line!
Newsgroups: vmsnet.pdp-11
From: mbg@world.std.com (Megan B Gentry)
Subject: Re: 11/34 confusion.
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 05:18:15 GMT


Dish-washer sized?  Sounds like RP02's/03's (unless you got something
like RM's)

Is there any sort of labelling on the disks or the drives?

I have done lots of -11 software (having worked as a developer on
rt-11) and probably have a manual for them.

					Megan

Newsgroups: vmsnet.pdp-11
From: Jeffrey Luszcz <jrl2@cornell.edu>
Subject: Qbus SMD drive question, Kennedy 5300 and  Emulex SC02/A
X-Xxdate: Sun, 13 Dec 92 21: 50:37 GMT
Nntp-Posting-User: jrl2@cornell.edu
Organization: Cornell University
X-Useragent: Nuntius v1.1.1d7
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 22:47:17 GMT


  Well, after deciding to upgrade my system
from a 34a to a 23+, I've run into a snag.
I've been able to get my rl02 drives working
on my 23+ and booting rsx-11 ver 4.0 and
everything else but when I moved my Kennedy 5300
drive over I ran into problem.
  I'm using a SC02/A rp02/03 compatible controller
from Emulex. (circa 1981)
  I have the Emulex board looking for a drive which 
has 700 physical cylenders, 5 tracks and 35 Sectors.
I believe I have the Kennedy drive set up correctly.
 I hardware format the drive using the Emulex controller's
on board formatter,
   @776714/1
   @776714/14003
  
  to format drive 0

  I then boot rsx-11 off the rl02. I have rp02s in my sysgen
and the kennedy worked off this sysgen on the 34a. When I try
to INIT 
  > ini dp0:
 
 I get the message, searching for bad block file
or sofething to the equivilent. I'm going to try to run
BAD tonite after work when I get it from a friend, but
has anyone had expeiriance with this setup before?
  Thanks
   -Jeff 
cc2x@vax5.cit.cornell.edu
Newsgroups: vmsnet.pdp-11
From: mbg@world.std.com (Megan B Gentry)
Subject: Re: 11/34 confusion.
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 16:14:18 GMT

<JXR126@psuvm.psu.edu> writes:

>I found out (after looking around inside) that the dishwasher-sized drives are
>rk06.  The diskpack I have is apparently rt-11 o.s., if the label is correct (w
>hich is always questionable with the level of organization kept by the previous
> owners of the machine)... Also have rl05 drives (these probably work, as they'
>ve not had a head crash (to my knowledge) yet, while the rk06 has.)  ts-somethi
>ng tape drive, too..    Manuals?

Oh yeah, rk06's ... I'll try to make copies of the manuals I have for
you.

rl05's?  that should be RL01's/RL02's.  It might be TS03/04/05/11.

As for RT-11, I can definitely help, I was a developer of RT-11 for
fifteen years.

					Megan

Newsgroups: vmsnet.pdp-11
From: Jeffrey Luszcz <jrl2@cornell.edu>
Subject: Minc software needed
X-Xxdate: Sun, 13 Dec 92 21: 42:35 GMT
Nntp-Posting-User: jrl2@cornell.edu
Organization: Cornell University
X-Useragent: Nuntius v1.1.1d7
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 22:39:07 GMT


   I just recently picked up a Minc-11 with a A/D,
clock, and digital in. I am looking for most importantly
  Minc-11 software, mainly Minc-Basic which I presume
runs under rt-11 but can be mistaken.
  I also would like a D/A for it also. 
Anyone still using minc for their work or have ibm-clones
and Macs taken over?
   Thanks,
  -Jeff 
    cc2x@vax5.cit.cornell.edu
Newsgroups: vmsnet.pdp-11
Subject: Dilog & Emulex
From: issbal@uccvma.ucop.edu
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 92 10:33:25 PDT
Organization: The Internet
Return-Path: <pat+@transarc.com>

From:    Bruce Lane  ISSBAL @ UCCVMA  (510) 987-0014
Subject: Dilog & Emulex

    For those of us who tear our hair out, trying to determine specs
and switch settings for the older controllers, a couple of handy 800
numbers.

Dilog: 1-800-345-6432

Emulex: 1-800-854-7112

    Both companies have been very helpful to me in providing older
documentation and info. Give 'em a call.

==Bruce (issbal@uccvma.ucop.edu) INTERNET
(issbal@uccvma) BITNET

Mail:    University of California
.        UCOP Telecomm Services
.        300 Lakeside Drive, #3010
.        Oakland, CA 94612-3550
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 05:14:20 EST
From: <JXR126@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: vmsnet.pdp-11
Subject: Re: 11/34 confusion.

I found out (after looking around inside) that the dishwasher-sized drives are
rk06.  The diskpack I have is apparently rt-11 o.s., if the label is correct (w
hich is always questionable with the level of organization kept by the previous
 owners of the machine)... Also have rl05 drives (these probably work, as they'
ve not had a head crash (to my knowledge) yet, while the rk06 has.)  ts-somethi
ng tape drive, too..    Manuals?
                                -Jake
Newsgroups: vmsnet.pdp-11