From: jbw@ponder.csci.unt.edu (WEST JASON BRUCE)
Subject: Re: Ken's 4-Hit Touch of Death
Organization: University of North Texas, Denton
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 12:19:30 GMT

In article <tmorris.724734344@bruny> tmorris@bruny.cc.utas.edu.au (Tim Morris) writes:
>
>
>West Jason Bruce writes:
>
>>>>I was just getting so sick of everyone
>>>>calling Bison "cheap" when Ken/Ryu obviosly have more unbalanced abilities.
>
>I replied:
>
>>>Bison is cheap, because all his effective strategies rely on high-power,
>>>no-skill moves.  If you're holding the machine using skill with, say,
>>>Honda, and some guy punches in with Bison, then you *know* what to 
>>>expect - torpedo/throw, scissor-kick combo, scissor-kick/throw, headstomp/
>>          ^^^^^^^^^^^^^  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>                1                2                    3
>
>South/East/North/West Jason Bruce writes:

   Did you come up with that yourself?  Or did your 6 year old brother help you?

>>1)  EASY to reverse.  If can't reverse this with Honda you suck.
>
>You just don't get it do you?  Hey, *I* can reverse Bison, but then again
>I've spent hard hours getting GOOD at this game.  It's a lot easier for
>a newbie to torpedo/throw than it is for a non-master to reverse.
>
>	      Bison: torpedos then pounds the throw button.
>Intermediate player: pounds his throw button.  Bison wins and gets the throw.

   Ken/Ryu need only pound the roudhouse button - they'll win everytime.  Z
can lariat (pushing 3 buttons is pretyt low skill).  Honda need just wait and
pound strong - he'll come out into hands.  Anyway, this is probably the easiest
tick I can think of to teach a newbie to reverse.
   And let's not forget - a sonic boom motion takes *some* skill, atkeast to
get it off all the time.  So if Bison has gotten that down I'm gonna give his
newbie  oponent atleast one special move down and some experience.
That will be my hypothetical situation

>I've seen this happen way too many times.  The fact that most of the arcades
>around here are (unfortunately) no-throw no-tick doesn't help much.
 
  True.

>>2)  No such thing.  After a scizzor-kick you can block no matter what.
>
>How about the endless scissor kick routine?  Scissor kick, jab, forward,
>scissor kick.  Sure, you can block until the cows come home, but each
>scissor means a couple of ticks of your life.  Sure an experienced 
>player will know what to do (this routine doesn't worry ME, before you
>jump in again) but your average player won't.

   Now THAT takes some *skill*.  To have that down an opponent of equal skill
should be able to special move out of it.  But, better yet, don't get stuck in
the corner (the only place that works).  That's equivalent to a Ryu fireball
trap...but by no means unbalanced or cheap.

>>3)  He is far enough away after kick that you should be able to EASILY
>>    reverse throw (especially with Honda's awesome extended range)
>
>Honda was an example.  Let's say it was Sagat, who's throwing range is 
>pitiful.  Remember, M. Bison suffers almost no freeze penalty after
>this (by all accounts) pounder of a move.

    Sagat could TU or Tiger Knee Bison.  If Bison has all his moves down -
our newbie Sagat knows atleast one move also.  (we are assuming these guys
are of equal skill).

>>Headstomp/throw?  Man, I didn't anybody sucked *that* bad.
>
>Quit your posing, dude.  It won't work on you and I, but what about the 
>middle man.

   Well, now are Bison has down the sonic boom and razor kick motions.  I'd
say our hypothetical newbie gets 2 special moves and some experience.  That
should be plenty to aviod this.  But, again, if the guy is of lesser skill
he will lose.
   One of the main reasons people bitch about Bison is because we didn't
have all of SFII to learn and create counter-ticks...so we don't have easy
answers for newbies.      

>>   Everything you mentioned can be mimicked by most other characters.
>>Ken can short kick/throw.  Or HK then throw.  But you can reverse this
>>so you don't call it cheap.  
>
>You're very fond of this Torpedo/HK comparison, but quite frankly it
>doesn't hold much water with me.  IF the HK took off 6 clicks from 

   6?!?!  I though I already informed everyone if you turn around while blocking
you should take no more that 4 ticks tops.

>a crouching opponent, and IF it travelled accross the whole screen and IF 
>it was the most reliable method for Ken to win the round, then I'd say
>Ken was a high-power low-skill character.

   Well, you missed the point.

I'll try to make a very small and defined point - so you won't get confused:
Are you trying to tell me Ken's short kick/throw combo is EASIER for a newbie
to counter than Bison's ticks?!?!  Are you also telling me Bison's ticks are
easiers than Ken's (and others) short kick/throw ticks??!?!
   Sure, we can counter these - but they are living hell for newbies.  No matter
how many special moves or whatever they have down - these ticks will take them
out everytime until they learn true counterthrowing.  And it takes near zero
skill.

>>You don't know how to reverse Bison - so
>>you call him cheap...it's that simple.  
>
>Wrong again.  I can and will reverse Bison and his cheese.  But I
>will say that I find reversing Bison takes more skill than reversing 
>most other characters, and you have to be a much better player to
>reverse some of Bison's tactics than against the other guys.

   You don't think it takes more skill to reverse a short/throw Ken than it does
for that stupid newbie Ken to short kick/throw?!?  And assume you have only been
countering Ken's tick for as long as Bison has been around.  Ticks are *always*
harder to counter than to do - that's why they are called *ticks*.

>>>the 4-hitter, bun Ken will rarely land this combo on you if you're
>>>any good.  Sure, it's not balanced that he has the potential.  But
>
>>   Now THAT is funny.  Ken/Ryu won't hit you with a flying fierce "if you're
>>any good" - but Bison can flame/throw you.  
>
>Any Bison can flame/throw you, only a good Ken will combo you.  I gues now
>you're going to tell me how you learnt to smoothly buffer triple dragon
>punches in half an hour.  Get real, Ken and Ryu are characters that take
>*practice* before you get the payoff, unlike M. Bison.

   Practice?  We are talking about the land of newbies, right?  Hell, I could
show a newbie in about 5 minutes how to tick a newbie Bison to death.  As
a newbie Bison he wouldn't know how to reverse.

>>>with Bison, the cheese is flying thick and fast from the word go
>>>until the end of the round, no matter who wins.  I'm just thankful
>
>>   Do me a favor and attakc Bison from the proper distance with flying 
>>roundhouse kicks.  
>
>This tells me that you haven't fought any decent Bisons.  You try that

   Make up your mind - are we talking about newbie v. niewbies or are we talking
about good Bison's?!!?

>here and Bison jumps up with HIS roundhouse kick, which is almost
>assuredly longer than yours.  In order to head off a predictable comment,
>let me *again* emphasize that I, personally, don't lose to this guy.  But
>a disproportionate number of players can and do.
>
>>>that I can pick Guile or Ryu and beat most Bison's, imagine what
>>>it's like for the intermediate players who don't stand a chance.
>
>>   Any half-decent Z can kill Bison.  And any intermediate other character
>>should be able to beat an *intermediate* Bison.  
>
>I'm sorry, but an intermediate Sagat/Blanka/Ken/Balrog/Vega will lose
>to an intermediate Bison.  These guys need to be able to whip off their
>special moves without fail to win (eg. DP, Uppercut).

   Well, we already said Bison can whip off his special moves without fail -
I would assume the opponent can also.  Sure, if one guy has his special down -
and the other guy doesn't, the guy who can do actual moves will win.  Pretty
stupid argument.

>>Now, if the Bison is 
>>*good* - then you will have to be *good*.  That's how it works with
>>everybody.  
>
>I think you'll find Bison's power plateaus a lot earlier than the other
>characters.

   He plateaus in about a month.

>>And this skill to damage ratio is crap:
>>  How hard is a 3 hitter stun combo with Ryu?  It took me about an hour
>>to get down.  
>
>Oh really?  You, who had never played Ryu before, sat down and had his
>stun combo off in an hour?  I'm impressed!  Come on, you already had Ryu
>down fairly well, it was just a matter of applying this skill and
>knowledge to a combo situation.  Endless torpedoes are the *first*

   You know how long it takes for someone who has *never touched an SF j-stick*
to learn a sonic boom?!?!  To learn the charging timing, the motion, to
go back and forth.  It would take a true newbie many weeks just to get down
some cheese.  I could teach a true newbie how to short kick throw with Ken in
about a day. (and have)

>thing a Bison player learns, and that causes a *lot* of players
>problems.  (Try and avoid the "well they suck!" response if you can).

   In all your points you essentially assumed the anti-Bison player was worse.
You seem to think Bison's moves are "easiers".  And that Ken is "hard".  The
sonic boom is no easier than a fireball (harder probably) and then razor kick
is no easier than a DP.  If Bison knows all his moves and chees etc, his oponent
should be just as good.  He should know his moves - his best method of winning,
and how to tick with his character.  In this situation Bison will lose.

>
>>It takes a lot longer than that for Bison to learn
>>spacing/timing and all that stuff for his moves.
>
>You don't need spacing and timing unless the guy you're playing against 
>knows what he's doing, ie, is considerably more skilled than you are.

   See above.  I'd place a ticking Ken v. a flaming Bison anyday.  If that's
all the 2 characters knew Ken would win.

>
>--
>Tim Morris


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