From: abkevich@husc3.harvard.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Let's hit Nazis?
Date: 22 Jan 93 01:11:51 GMT
Organization: Harvard University Science Center

In article <46309@unlisys.in-berlin.de>, stingray@unlisys.in-berlin.de 
(Christian Lampl) writes:
> abkevich@husc3.harvard.edu writes:
> 
>>You lived in democratic state.In totalitarian state the book like 'Mein Kampf'
>>much, much more important then a bible. It will determine the whole your life.
>>And belive me (and my experience in USSR), it will not take you long to
>>understand it. If you will recieve contract for a new job as a present for
>>your marriage, will you read it? And if you will not then you can blame only
>>yourself in future.
> Well well. I don't have any facts to prove this, but 
> I think that most people just got the book and let it disappear 
> in one bookshelf. 
> So I think the book "Mein Kampf" had the same importance for most
> people like the bible in our days has. Sure, the whole ideology
> and point of views of Hitler were written down in it
> (I don't even know this for sure. We are not allowed to read
>  "Mein Kampf" in Germany so I just have read extracts. I will
>  ask my political science teacher to ge[...]

I don't think you are right. I am not sure but my life in totalitarian state
showed me that even if you want you couldn't ignore ideology. It is in every
book, in every movie, in every radio program. Sometimes you will be asked to
repeat it yourself openly, so that everybody would understand that you are not
against state. I don't think everybody read "Mein Kampf", but I think everybody
knew main ideas. And "relations" with Jews were among them

> I *never* wanted to excuse anything. I just tried or should
> I say still try to convince some people that this all
> is not a special German behaviour (copyright 1932) like
> some people seem to think.
> I think we shouldn't ... no... we are not allowed to 
> forget anything ever happened, but I will never accept
> sentences like: Human being is cruel, but germans are more cruel
> like I won't accept sentences like: All people are good, but germans
> are better.

But germans were generally more cruel during WW2! You could find a lot of 
reason, like bad life after WW1 and so on, but is it important. The problem is
that all these cruelties made the whole nation more cruel. And it would take 
more then 2 generations to overcome moral consequences of 12 years Nazi power.
} [...]
> But just looking at Germany and thinking that all other 
> cases are totaly different is wrong, too.
> 

> 
>Christian Lample>> ...neither KPD nor the NSDAP were democratic parties...
>>Well, there was no party which was not violent these days.
>>were no party which was not violent these days? The fact that NSDAP was able to
>>Don't you think it was a fault of all these "odinary Germans" (of that time)
>>that there was no party which was not violent these days? Fact that Nazis
>>managed to recieve 13,000,000 votes in 1932 should not be excused.
>>the crimes that hit civilians.

> See above. I don't excuse anything. I just try to give reasons for
> the fact why parties like the NSDAP can get votes.
> Other reasons than "All Germans like to be Nazis"

But you do agree that the most part of Germans who voted for NSDAP (and 
probably KPD) should be condemned? I am not saying that their reason was "All
Germans like to be Nazis". But on the other hand these reasons were not enough
even with what was known in 1932.
 
>>NO! NO! Just compare number of civilians, which were murdered in WW1 and in
>>WW2. WW2 was not "just another war of 20-th century". You found similarities
>>with purges in communist countries. I am not interested in these similarities. 
>>It is NOT important at all. Or do you fill better because of massmurders in 
>>other countries too?
> No. But I don't feel better if massmurders in other countries
> are excused (by not talking... or better... not even mentioning them), either.
>
I agree. But do you agree that it was not "the war like all wars after WW1"?
 
>>YES YOU WILL KNOW. Just think about how this smoke will SMELL!!! Witnesses told
>>that when the wind was from KZ it was hard to breath even in few miles from
>>camps. Just read books - the most stupid peasant who leaved near KZ knew what 
>>is going on. And again - what about rumors, drunk SS-officers, all-Europe hunt
>>for Jews, soldiers returned home from the East front: everybody in Ukraine, 
>>White Russia, Baltic states knew what was going on. I don't think German 
>>soldiers were less informed. Again witnesses told that German soldiers entered
>>Russian towns, from their remarks population understood what should they 
>>expect. Of course if you didn't want to know or was afraid to know totalitarian
>>state gave you all necessary excuses.
> Yes. People in general tend to refuse the truth until it is proven
> at least third times (I mean if they don't like the truth).
> This is not a good thing. And not an excuse (again and again), but
> the germans don't have a copyright on this fact, either.

Should I understand you, that you finally agreed with me that germans in
reallity did know what was going on, but prefered not to know? I could
understand why... After all my own grandparents didn't do a thing in 1937, even
though they understood what were going on. They were afraid... After all what
could they do? But it doesn't mean that I don't condemn THEM. And it doesn't
make MY life easier eventhough I was born 12 years AFTER Stalin's death. It is
very important to understand that they knew.
 
> 
>>Christian Lampl>> Let's hit the Nazis?
> 
>>Sorry Chris, I don't see you hitting Nazis. You are doing everything to hit 
>>Larry. I could understand why. I think that at the same time you are defending
>>Nazis trying to hide their guilt. You obviously don't think so. May I am wrong.
>>But at least you are not hitting Nazis. This the last thing you are doing. Till
>>know the first and the last German who did hit Nazis was Sasha Pabst.
> 
> *Sigh*
> I *never* defended the Nazis. 
> (We are talking about the people who planned and wanted to do 
> all the cruel things that happend too long to name them all).
> I just refuse to accept opinions who want to put all German
> people of this time (and even of today) into two drawers:
> Is a Nazi ---- Is not a Nazi
> I didn't even defend one single deed or crime.
> I just said that somebody who accuses another person of a crime
> has to prove this to me. 
> Except of answers like I'm a defender of the Nazi ideology 
> I haven't get an answer on this, yet.
> Just like: I can't imgine that he hasn't done a crime.
>        or: He simply must have done a crime, because 
>            he was a member of the SS.
> The topic is not if Nazis are good or bad.
> The topic is prejudice.

I agree. Persons who made a crime (and we should prove it) should not be a 
concern of newsgroups, they should be taken to court. What I am talking about
is a moral guilt of people who were old enough by 1945 and didn't rise their
voice against crimes, about which they knew. Because of many reasons that makes
almost all nation. That is why I am talking about "Germans", not about list of
names. All people who were born after let's say 1927 are not guilty at all.
Most of them have nothing to do with Nazis (at least I hope so). They made no 
crime. Nobody should accuse them. However I am not forgetting that they were
*influenced* by their parents and grandparents who are bearing moral guilt. 
That's why I am trying lets say "suspicious" when somebody is saying: "I am
German. But I was born after 1945 and so 'de facto' I have as much in common
with Nazis as you." That is what you are doing. You are not hiting Nazis. For
example I think that I am influenced by communists much stronger then you and
so have much more in common with them (or you are from East Germany? Then you
are really in trouble... :-)).   
 Bye,
                               Victor Abkevich
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german