HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Original_To:  BITNET%"mbu-l@ttuvm1.bitnet"
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Date:         Mon, 16 Nov 1992 22:02:00 EDT
From:         "Composition Digest (Robert Royar,
              Moderator)" <R0MILL01@ULKYVX.BITNET>
Subject:      (Fwd: *C&CD*) RE: (Fwd: *C&CD*) Administrative "problems" with
              remediation (27) (*COMP.COMP*) (11)

Entry: 11
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 92 12:25:29 -0500
From: ts@ecn.purdue.edu (Thomas Ruschak)
Subject: RE: (Fwd: *C&CD*) Administrative "problems" with remediation (27) (*COM
P.COMP*) (11)
Message-id: <9211161725.AA01925@chainsaw.ecn.purdue.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.edu.composition
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network
Reply-to: comp.edu.composition <compos01%ulkyvx.bitnet@ucbvax.Berkeley.edu>

Hi,

 I saw your name in comp.edu.composition, and I thought you might be
a good person to ask about this. If this is inappropriate, I apologize.

 I am looking for information on ERIC, supposed to stand for English
Research in Composition. My girlfriend (getting her PhD in Technical
Communication at RPI) tells me that it is/was a database of some kind,
at the University of Colorado, supposedly offerring access via telnet.

 I'd appreciate any information you might have. Thank you for your time.

                                Thomas Ruschak
    ts@ecn.purdue.edu
                                pur-ee!pc!ts

     I thought I told you to shut up!

            --- Reid Fleming, The World's Toughest Milkman

------------------------------
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Date:         Thu, 19 Nov 1992 14:01:00 EST
From:         BURT@BRANDEIS.BITNET
Subject:      RE: still taking offense

Sharon: Do you really mean that justice is exclusionary, or that
practices covered by the name of justice are in fact unjust? Ronald
Dworkin in these cases distinguishes between a concept (say, justice)
and a conception (justice in 1858, which committed itself to the
principle that all men are created equal but had not yet faced up to
the meaning of that commitment). I am willing to concede that
conceptions are the ideolgical constructs you describe them as being.
I am even willing to concede to Martin that conceptions are frequently
the creatures and the means of hegemony. But I cannot make the same
claim about concepts, because I think such claims are self-refuting.
If all justice is "whose justice" and if all rationality is "whose
rationality" then one has no grounds to criticize particular
conceptions of justice and rationality, since all other conceptions
suffer the same problems. The claim that someone's conception of
justice is "whose justice" and someone's conception of rationality is
"whose rationality" only matters if those conceptions are wrong, and
if they are wrong, they are only wrong in a telling way if they can be
held up to some conception of justice or rationality that "does better
justice" to the concept (such as the one that informs your critique of
earlier conceptions of justice).

If we say that persuasion is merely violence by other means, we must
make an exemption for our own argument (unless we do not expect that
argument to be taken seriously). For instance, it's clear to me that
_you_ are not trying merely (however tactfully) to pummel me into
submission, but to persuade me in ways you take seriously as
persuasion, which is to say, in ways which have not even the remotest
connections to violence.

Let me give you a loaded but I hope telling example. Consider these
two propositions:

1. "All justice is `whose justice'."

2. "I don't have to play by the rules."

Clearly almost nobody who says #1 intends to say #2 (only scoundrels
say #2). But #2 is just as clearly the immediate personal application
of #1. If you shy away from #2, it is because you do not really
believe #1.

What you can say (and where we agree) is that nobody's conception of
justice accurately realizes the concept. But one can only do that if
one treats the concept of transcending ideology. (And indeed, as I've
argued here, _only_ if one treats values as transcending ideology is
there any possibility of a kind of persuasion which is other than
violence with words rather than sticks. The skepticism so
characteristic of the current intellectual scene is not, and cannot
be, in any way liberating, because its final effect is always to abet
the tyranny of the strong--which is exactly the opposite of what the
skeptics hope to do.)

John B
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X-Sender: msyverso@ucsd.edu (Unverified)
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Date:         Sat, 21 Nov 1992 06:22:24 -0800
From:         "(Peg Syverson)" <msyverson@UCSD.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Multimedia

>jeff Galin -- Well said.  I wish I'd read your entry before I replied to Tim's
>r
>   eply to my entry. (That got kind of complicated).  What led me to my
>position was my friends in dance and art swearing up and down that
>there is a 'language' in their art forms.  Maybe I need to do some heavy-
>duty edfining

A good place to start is Gardner's _Frames of Mind_, which argues
convincingly and cogently that there are at least seven forms of
intelligence; his work is based on research with both brain-damaged or
brain injured patients and prodigies.  It is highly regarded and extremely
influential in early education now (I think the concept of "learning
styles" draws on his theories).
Peg Syverson, msyverso@ucsd.edu
Dimensions of Culture, 0525, UCSD, La Jolla, CA 92093
(619) 558-1514
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Date:         Mon, 16 Nov 1992 15:17:07 -0700
From:         CROWLEY@NAUVAX.BITNET
Subject:      Taking Offense at Reason

James Crosswhite:  reason, as defined by Toulmin or any other modernist
thinker, is --how shall I put this so as to give least offense--  emphatically
NOT neutral.  At the very least, it is male-centered.  Think a little bit:
what, in modernist epistemologies, is the opposite of reason?  Emotion.  ANd
who is defined as "emotional" in Western culture?  Women.  People of color.
Given the reason/emotion dichotomy, you also can write "rational/irrational"
right over top of the "man/woman" dichotomy.  To center argumentation on
reasoning is also to overlook Aristotle (no feminist he) who wisely observed
that much persuasion depends on ethical and pathetic appeal, something which
remains at least as plausible today as it was in fifth-century Athens.  What
is the rational appeal of "family values"?  of term limitations?  of "change"
as opposed to "four more years"?  Read the speeches of Susan B. Anthony or
E. Cady Stanton.  Carefully constructed rational arguments.  How long did it
take for them to be persuasive?  Stanton gaver her first widely-heard public
address in 1848;  women got the vote in 1919;  the first time that women
and people of color have served in any numbers at all in the US Congress is
or will be 1993.  This is rational behavior?  Something else, very powerful
is at work--best call it ideology.  There's more rhetoric under heaven and
earth than are conceived within a rational universe, Horatio.
Sharon Crowley
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Date:         Thu, 19 Nov 1992 07:36:00 CST
From:         SLATIN@UTXVM.BITNET
Subject:      What makes a good exercise?

Charles Woodson: what are you trying to accomplish?
The answer to that question will have some bearing on the answer to your
original question, I think.

John Slatin
UT Austin
From: IACDES@ASUACAD.BITNET (David E. Schwalm)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Subject: Re: Getting a C
Date: 17 Nov 92 06:41:20 GMT
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From: David E. Schwalm
Simply to graduate from most of the better known libral arts colleges is
considered a sufficient credential. Graduates from aspiring public
universities have to be "top" graduates to be competitive. Also, what students
at the small liberal arts colleges (SLACs) have in common is the kind of
academic motivation that we have in common with one another. I would reckon
that there are more different wave lengths in the typical community college
composition class than in half the student body at Haverford or what haver
you. Now, I hope like hell my kids wind up at a SLAC. I think that a good
education is harder to avoid at such places. But that has more to do with the
sense of community and academic involvement that such places foster and less
to do with whose agenda dominates. The students and the faculty have roughly
the same agenda--that is, our agenda. I don't think the "learning" model and
the "credentialling" model are incompatible--necessarily. Depends on the
players. And in any case, I'm not sure we want to overturn the credentialling
model. We need to look very carefully at it to see if the universities have
simply sold out to the capitalists and are trying to produce willing workers
or whether there is some better justification. (Might as well sell out to the
capitalists; ain't no one left left.)

-- David E. Schwalm, Assoc. Provost for Academic Programs
___Arizona State University West
___4701 West Thunderbird Rd.
___Phoenix, AZ 85069-7100___(602) 543-4500
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Date:         Fri, 20 Nov 1992 18:28:00 CDT
From:         Fred Kemp <YKFOK@TTACS.BITNET>
Subject:      Limit your messages

Bill Condon is right and I will say again what he quoted me as
saying last year:

1.  Read ALL your mail before responding to any of it.  That way
we can avoid five replies when one will do.

2.  When possible, combine responses; for even the most active of
us, one daily posting could well accomplish what we now use 60
for.

3.  Make sure your subscription is set to echo your own messages
back to you; seeing how many postings you have made may help
self-limit.

Let me add that you should define a subject line, not simply send
"reply" to whatever message you're reading.  Three times this
week MBU traffic has gone over 50 messages-per-day and shut down
automatically.  I could raise the shut-down limit but I won't; no
human being on earth needs to receive more than 50 messages a day
from any one list.  I find very very little on MBU that I would
delete at the source (even if I could), but I do think that we
could all practice more discipline in sending messages.  Read all
the message, reply only to the most important, and put a series
of replies into a single message.  I slap my own wrist
half-a-dozen times a night and have come to choose carefully
when to zing off the incredibly brilliant reply.  Fred Kemp, TTU
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Date:         Sun, 15 Nov 1992 11:49:00 EDT
From:         "Composition Digest (Robert Royar,
              Moderator)" <R0MILL01@ULKYVX.BITNET>
Subject:      (Fwd: *C&CD*) RE: Computers and Composition Digest 7. 014 (8)

Entry: 8
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 92 16:02:28 EDT
From: Lynne Taetzsh <TAETZSCH@gwuvm.gwu.edu>
Subject: RE: Computers and Composition Digest 7.014 (8)
Message-id: <01GR3XJQGE1C8WWGHW@ulkyvx.bitnet>
Reply-to: Computers & Composition Digest (R. Royar) <R0MILL01@ULKYVX.BITNET>

I was browsing through MBU and getting more and more uncomfortable being
a lurker.  Had to speak up.  Enjoying your conversations.  Overworked.
System not working properly (too many users?).  Have to make this short.
I have always had a problem with grading as punishing students when I am
trying to get them all to succeed.  Universities that criticize my grading
for being too high, using grades to weed out, eliminate . . . .

------------------------------
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Date:         Mon, 16 Nov 1992 08:51:57 -0800
From:         "(Tim McGee)" <tmcgee@GARNET.BERKELEY.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Multimedia

Ron,
	I didn't mean to imply "that a picture can't be propositional," and
probably should have said that "it's easier for the audience to feel
confident that _verbal_ or _textual proposition X means X than it is to be
certain that picture Y means Y,"  because I too accept visuals as
language eminently capable of bearing propositional content.  The
significant difference (at least in terms of explaining the distrust of
visuals felt by an audience raised to read primarily textual media) lies, I
believe, in the far more limited deniability for authors of verbal/textual
propositions.  I can (as I did at the start of this paragraph) deny that I
meant what you interpreted my proposition to mean, and either take the
blame for its imprecision or impugn your skills as a reader, but, I can't
deny that I said it.  The author of a visual communication however has the
additional wiggle room of denying he or she ever said anything of the sort
that the reader construed the picture to mean.  So, for those readers who
do not work primarily in visual media, and have
not been schooled in the rules for decoding visual propositions with a
relatively high degree of accuracy (as they have been for textual
propositions), visuals may seem less trustworthy because the reader
can't feel confident that he or she knows what the author of the visual
intended to mean.  As Jimmy Durante used to sing, "Say it with diamonds,
say it with mink, but never, ever, say it in ink."

Tim McGee
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Date:         Fri, 20 Nov 1992 10:25:00 EST
From:         Joel Nydahl <NYDAHL@BABSON.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: I cry thee mercy!

I support Bill entirely.  I am becoming overwhelmed by the volume of
messages I find each day.  I also agree with Bill's list of "solutions";
I'd like to add one more:  Although it's easier to use the "Reply"
function, what happens is that I get four score messages when I run a
directory that have the same heading--and MANY times the substance of the
message has nothing to do with the heading.  HELP!!!
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Date:         Wed, 18 Nov 1992 06:07:57 -0600
From:         "(Gail E. Hawisher)" <hawisher@UIUC.EDU>
Subject:      Re: software & hardware

Megabuns--

Before I take off for NCTE, I just wanted to thank you all for your *many*
wonderful descriptions of programs and comments on early software and
hardware.  The comments of Patty, Bob, Sandy, Heyward, David, Dickie, Rob,
Bob, Bill, Macey, and Ted should go far in helping us get a view of the
early years in c & c. At some point we may ask you for permission to use
your *words*. As we progress with the project, we may also ask for other
expert advice as well.

Macey, it won't be done until some time next summer, but we'll be sure to
let you know more as we work on it.  Cindy's e-mail, by the way, is broken,
so I have to *print* out all the comments for her to see them at NCTE.
Nothing like taking a couple of steps backward every once in awhile to keep
us humble. Thanks again to you all!

Gail
________________
Gail E. Hawisher
Department of English
University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign
hawisher@uiuc.edu and 217-333-2989
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
From: wkl1@Ra.MsState.Edu (Wing-Keong Loke                                               the consummate chronic prevaricator)
Subject: Re: Getting a C
Organization: Mississippi State University
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 00:38:36 GMT

From: Wing:

In article <MBU-L%92111809423217@TTUVM1.BITNET> Pseudopodia can only be so long <TABRON@BRANDEIS.BITNET> writes:

>school like Bryn Mawr where students discussing their grades with each other
>was against the Honor Code, many students (I'm talking around 1/3 to 1/2 here,
>possibly more since I left college, according to my increasingly bemused
>professors) couldn't resist doing it at least in private because they were
>_there_ for the grades -- _nothing_ was as important as the grades.

	What fun!  Discussion of grades being against the Honor Code at
Bryn Mawr?  I think there's a bit of a paradox here.  The honor code is
supposed to be there to encourage the student to learn rather than do
anything to grub a grade :).  I don't see the discussion of grades as
being incompatible to learning.  In fact, I think the discussion of grades
is positive so long as grades aren't being given out on a curve.  I
would like to know how I stand with regards to my peers; I would like
to know if they're lying in a similar pothole as I am; I'd like to know
if we're flying in formation.  Hell! I'd break the Honor Code and discuss
grades just because the code is preventing me from *learning* more about
how good a job I'm educating myself--but first I've got to get in Bryn Mawr
which I think is an all-female school, which would entail a change of sex
which I'm not at all interested in.
>
>
>Bryn Mawr announced in the late 80's that while they were going to continue
>their need-blind admissions policy, they were also going to try to recruit and
>accept more students who could actually pay for their educations in order to
>try to solve some of their fiscal problems. Swarthmore has always had a policy
>
>judith tabron
>(humble grad student, brandeis university)
>>if I got in here just 'cause I had a bryn mawr degree, nobody told _me_!

	Unfortunately, good intentions (continuation of need-blind)
sometimes get railroaded after some time when the mecca of paying students
becomes so much an easier dream to realize.  Hope Bryn Mawr keeps its
need-blind policies as open as in the past.



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Date:         Tue, 17 Nov 1992 21:19:33 MST
From:         "David E. Schwalm" <IACDES@ASUACAD.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: getting a "C"

From: David E. Schwalm
I think androgogy is a term created to oppose to pedagogy, student centered
vs. teacher centered education.

-- David E. Schwalm, Assoc. Provost for Academic Programs
___Arizona State University West
___4701 West Thunderbird Rd.
___Phoenix, AZ 85069-7100___(602) 543-4500
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Date:         Mon, 23 Nov 1992 15:40:34 -0500
From:         Nick.Carbone@WRITING.UMASS.EDU
Subject:      Dismantling Houses

I suppose it all depends on what you want to do with the house.  Destroy it
Use its dismantled parts somewhere else, or move it maybe.  The intent will
determine which are the right tools for the job.  But if the house is taken
down, and the master run off (if not converted), one still needs shelter,
a place to find consolation and stay...so what gets built, with what tools,
which architectual plan, and by whom and how...become necessary queries as
well, questions one might want to know before they go ahead and tear down
the old place.
     It's hard to tear down even the most destructive edifices (just
as it is hard to end destructive addictions--drinking, smoking and the
like) because at least a person knows how to survive there, to some
degree.

Nick.CArbone@titan.ucc.umass.edu
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Date:         Wed, 18 Nov 1992 08:43:00 CST
From:         GOS@UHDBIT.BITNET
Subject:      Re: bibliographic plea

John,
   Thanks.  Sounds like exactly the kind of thing I'm looking for.

Michael
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Date:         Fri, 20 Nov 1992 08:30:01 MST
From:         "David E. Schwalm" <IACDES@ASUACAD.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Taking Offense at Reason

From: David E. Schwalm
Mary O'Sullivan's comments raise a question: does Minnich have a problem with
logic or with faulty logic. "Universalizing from a very small group's
experience and history" is not a problem with logic per se. It's one of our
standard old "logical fallacies" --hasty generalization. One thing that
Jonathan Swift liked to show us over and over again is that logic is not the
problem. His logic is fine; its his premises that are crazy. Crazy premises
lead to crazy conclusions. So the question is, is logic sexist or does logic
simply carry sexist premises out to sexist conclusions? (Note that it could
also carry non-sexist presmises out to non-sexist conclusions--the perfect
mercenary.)

-- David E. Schwalm, Assoc. Provost for Academic Programs
___Arizona State University West
___4701 West Thunderbird Rd.
___Phoenix, AZ 85069-7100___(602) 543-4500
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Date:         Mon, 16 Nov 1992 12:43:14 EST
From:         David S Hogsette <dhogsett@MAGNUS.ACS.OHIO-STATE.EDU>
Subject:      Re: computer-supported classroom management
              OSullivan" at Nov 15, 92 5:10 pm

Mary,

Sounds like you really have you hands full!!  Here at OSU, we have created a
separate administrative unit within the English department to run the
computer-assisted writing program.  This Computers in Composition and
Literature group is headed by Eric Walborn, a graduate/staff/faculty student.
As you can see, Eric has a non-descript position because his duties place him
in between the normal classifications here at OSU.  If anything, Eric is
considered a faculty member, but he is still working on his dissertation.  Even
though his duties in CCL is mainly administrative, he does occassionally teach
classes.  Eric's position demands much of his time, so much so that he devotes
most of his time to running the program and less time working on his degree.
(Just to give you an idea, he has been working on his PhD for several, several
years.)  It would probably be a good idea to have a faculty member run or, at
least, help run the program.  But who ever runs the program must have a clear
understanding of the goals of your program and how to work with the whole
university community--budgeting, tech. support, enrollment, cross-departmental
class offerings, etc.

As far as technical support, we work closely with our Academic Computing
Service (a university-wide support team) and our Humanities Computing Service
(a college-specific group).  During the daytime hours, we at CCL opperate the
labs as classrooms, but during the night, ACS opperates them as labs, but our
writing students (those in c-classes) have priority use of the computers.

Another idea you may wish to consider:  not only do we have a single faculty
figure head running the program, but Eric is staffed by five graduate students
(Administrative Assistants).  Together, we coordinate the writing program,
designing courses, assigning teachers to classes, providing limited technical
support during the class hours, running teaching workshops, and conducting
theory and pedagogy research.

I hope this helps.  If you have any more questions, feel free to write us at
the following address:

CC&L
Department of English
421 Denney Hall
164 W. 17th Ave.
The Ohio State University
Columbus, Ohio  43210

Take care,
David S. Hogsette
CC&L
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Date:         Mon, 16 Nov 1992 13:15:02 CST
From:         Eric Hobson <EHH909F@SMSVMA.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: bibliographic plea

Michael:
    A new book on ESL and second language acquisition is out from Heinemann
Boynton/Cook, by Ilona Leki, __Understanding ESL Writers: A Guide for Teachers.
Only saw the book in early draft form, but, Leki is respected and I suspect her
presentation is both accessable and a good introduction to the issues.