From: ksand@apple.com (Kent Sandvik)
Subject: Re: Stop thinking? (Was: Why I am an atheist)
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 01:59:52 GMT
Organization: Apple
Followup-To: talk.religion.misc

In article <fTxCEBF@quack.sac.ca.us>, pharvey@quack.sac.ca.us (Paul Harvey)
wrote:
> 
> In article <ksand-041092163355@wintermute.apple.com> 
> ksand@apple.com (Kent Sandvik) writes:
> >I agree that it is we human that are responsible for the mess on this
> >planet.
> 
> Very good, a cautious first step, eh? You'll see, freedom walk ain't
> that bad. Unless you like crutches?

Eh? We are the most intelligent animal on this planet, and also 
mostly responsible for the ecological mess. It has nothing to
do with crutches, it's a fact.
 
> >This because I don't personally believe in a Biblical style creator.
 
> Oh really? So, if you did "believe" in a "Biblical style creator" then you
> would not believe in free will? How sad. I thought it said in the Bible
> that your kind were delivered FROM slavery. How strange that you should
> find some broken chains to cling to in your reading of the Bible. Maybe
> you just got a poor translation? Maybe you found what you were looking
> for? Maybe you've never read it?

Hehehe, I have NIV indexed on my computer, I guess that's a statement
that I have actually done searches in the Bibles. What's your point
anyway, I someone does not believe in a nomad tribe ritual or myth,
it's the person's private issue.

> >However,
> >if a theist still argues that someone created this planet for human beings,
> >this being is responsible to make sure that those who live here have an
> >easier time.
> 
> Oh really? Kent, your parents created you, right? And, they are still
> responsible for you? Do they bail you out when you fail? Are you or are
> you not a free man? Free to succeed and free to fail? And what is this
> "easier time"? Is that a couch potato saying? Have you been watching
> 90210 again? Kent, joyful participation in the sorrows of the world,
> that is the way of no crutch required. That is the freedom walk, free to
> rise and free to fall.

Yes, it's true, the family should take responsibility of me until 
I'm old enough to take care of myself. If you maintain that we have 
free will and could take care of ourselves, watch CNN instead of 90210.

> >If this is not the case, then we humans are considered to
> >be rats in a huge experiment.
> 
> Well, that's your metaphor, not mine. As I've said before, heaven is
> right here, right now, only most don't see IT for what IT is. Hell is
> not seeing IT for what IT is. Are you seeing Hell, Kent? Do you know
> what life is really worth? Do you know the meaning of freedom? You
> aren't confusing freedom with free-lunch, are you?
 
OK, flying saucers have taken over the US government, right here, right
now. And people don't see it. Isn't it strange?

> >If you maintain that a possible God created this place for us humans to
> >express free will, you can't avoid the 'landlord' issue.
> 
> The "landlord" issue? Another strange metaphor I assume? I would suggest
> setting your sights higher, towards the transcendent.

Sigh. In your definition God is the landlord, and gave people free
will to roam around in a bad apartment. And if people die by falling
through the wall, your landlord is stating that: "Too bad, they had
free will to jump through the wall anyway, it's not my fault that
the apartment is in shambles". It would certainly not work in a
court case.

> I have a sermon for you Kent:

Hehe, save your prayers to someone else. It's sort of too late to
convert me, a former Lutheran by tradition. Sorry, I'm old enough
to think for myself now, I don't need father figures.

> I don't care who the guy is, I know my right.
> How about you Kent, do you know your right?
> The right to stand, and the right to fall?
> The right to succeed, and the right to fail?
> The right to live, and the right to die?

I find it interesting that when one's own faith is poor, the
individual falls into a sermon mode in order to convert the
other side using plain faith. How pathetic. Please, could 
we stick to logical reasoning instead of evangelical mumbo-jumbo,
thanks?

Cheers,
Kent
	Faith is often the boast of the man who is too lazy to	investigate. -F.M.
Knowles
-------------------
Kent Sandvik (UUCP: ....!apple!ksand; INTERNET: ksand@apple.com)
DISCLAIMER: Private activities on the Net.