From: karenm@yenta.alb.nm.us (Karen Millar)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage
Subject: Sexuality & Religion
Summary: continued discussion...
Keywords: good stuff maynard
Date: 3 Oct 92 22:12:38 GMT
Organization: yenta unix pc, rio rancho, nm


Please excuse the fact that there are no > marks here; this did not
go through the mailer... 

Marc:

You are putting this in the context of things which are usually considered
negative. Is this meant to imply sexuality where somehow bad?
If so, I'd like to hear your reasons.

[Did we ever hear from Toshi on this?]

Actually, I dont think we ever did, but he posts here in trna so 
I would think he would pick up the strain here....

Karen:
It is
MY belief that we are here to learn how to be human in a spiritual way,
but not to deny that we are human. I think that we need to experience 
all there is to be human, through various methods of interconnectedness
and other ways.   
Response:
That seems reasonable, as long as one posits a 'reason for being'.
Your beliefs seem very Christian in tone as becomes more apparent later.

They do???!!! hmmm... she says with consternation....

Karen:
"ONE" way to do this is through coupling in a 
sexual fashion. Between kundalini and tantra yoga is a beginning of what
I am actually talking about... 
Response:
This is unclear.  We are certainly speaking about sex.  You seem to be
suggesting that there are more and less 'spiritual' means of engaging
in sexual activity.

Yup... that is what I meant... seems like there are more or less spiritual
ways of doing/being to me... that is that one can do things with varying
levels of spirituality... is this so strange? to you or anybody? Please 
describe your problems with this....

Karen:
if I was going to just be spiritual, why 
would I go to all the trouble of manifesting a body in a sexually defined
world? It seems to me that we are here to learn and experience something, 
not to avoid it.
Response:
I assume you meant this rhetorically, but I'm fairly bold.  Possibilities:
We might not be 'manifesting a body'.  There may not be anything
manifesting in any case.  Perhaps we manifested in order to write these
fascinating words here on this screen.  Maybe we manifested to learn how
to become unattached to sexuality.  Maybe we came here to learn how to
enjoy bodily form.  Maybe, just maybe, sexuality and spirituality AREN'T
two different things. ;>

Well, I dont mean to imply that they are different things, only that the
attitude or reason can be different at times. Anyway, each of (IMHO) :-)
decides what we are doing and why... i.e. the old create your own 
reality thing.

X: 
I don't know what Toshi will have to say about this, but some things occurred
to me. According to many spiritual traditions, the usual sorts of sexual
desires and feelings are considered in a negative way. Why? Because they
foster identification with the material body and ego in the heaviest possible
way.   ...
Karen:
Here we come to the fine points of the definition of the different levels
of the uses of sexuality. 
Response:
I agree with X's words above.  Karen's are beginning to strike me as somewhat
ascetic.  'Uses of sexuality'?  This makes it sound as if sexuality isn't
perfect just as it is.

Sexuality does not in my opinion have to foster material/ego identification
as he states... it does in many cases, but...  in response to the "uses"
comment... I do not feel that I AM my body, and so its various parts in
that sense have various uses... my mind has uses, and my body has uses.
I dont find anyuthing wrong with sexuality per se.

Karen:
I think that rutting is not a positive thing
in that it is not likely to help one in one's spiritual path; it is
however a stress relief, and as such probably not negative in my view, 
except in very mundane circumstances. :-)  
Response:
Note the continued separation between 'spiritual' and 'mundane'.  This is
why I mentioned the heavy Christian bias, though I suppose some other
traditions equally use such terms.  
I wonder what 'mundane circumstances' would show 'rutting' to be a negative
thing.  Whether it helps one along in one's 'spiritual path' depends what
our attitude toward it is and how one sees one's partner (s) and oneself.

I was trying to be "nice" but I see it didnt work... I meant the word
rutting as being the kind of thing that some do: hit the bars and get 
drunk and take somebody home and scratch an itch with them and then 
forget them the next day... the kind of thing that lonely non-giving 
people do. This is not very spiritual in my assessment.

Karen:
As one gets farther along
the path, sexual bonding and merging is usually something that one wants
to do only with people of similar paths and levels of understanding.
Response:
I don't know that this is true.  It would seem that as one 'gets farther
along' one's path begins to break down and fuse into that of all else.
In such a case, perhaps you are correct because EVERYONE is then seen
to be following a 'similar path'.  My own experience leads me to think
more and more that the further I go I wish to come closest to That which
is most UNlike myself, That Other which understands all that I do not.

Hmmm.... What does this mean in terms of real behavior or experience?
Who exactly do you seek out to have sex with? To me, what they are doing
in this life is not necessarily indicative of their spiritual develop-
ment. I am at a loss for words here, except to ask you to define yourself
more succinctly so that I may understand. 

Karen:
To wit, it becomes something of a tool to sharing auras and learning
the other person and ones self. Sex can be draining and exhausting,
but if one participates with another of like vibrational level, it
can be invigorating and life-giving.
Response:
I'm not sure I understand this, but I think I agree.  Then again, when
sex becomes a 'tool' it quite often stops being spontaneous.  I tend
to like my sex unplanned, uncontrolled, and unconditioned.

Oh, well, I didnt say that I stood back and watched the whole thing
from some distance... <grin> when I speak of a tool, I am speaking
of it on an intellectual level. When I am actually "doing" something,
I operate on a much more fluid, interactive, and right brain level.
By that, I mean, I hardly ever analyze the situation while I am in 
it... whatever that situation might be. 

X:
 ... In any case, those who engage in sex should do so for
the deliberate purpose of having a child, who would be raised by the parents
to become a spiritually progressive person whose main interest is spiritual
advancement and helping others make spiritual advancement. Arranging one's
life to accomplish this, before-during-and after the sex act itself is an act
of spiritual sacrifice, and in this context the enjoyment of sex is
spiritually legitimate. 
Karen:
Here is where I draw the line... this is part of the "old religions" 
that is not in my reality... it sounds also like some of the stuff
perpetuated by the Mormon church in some of its members. Yuck!! 
Response:
I tend to agree with Karen's assessment here.  X seems to be arranging for
us all a society much like Atwood described in her book, _Handmaid's Tale_.
Honestly, all this differentiating between 'sexuality' and 'spirituality'
would be quite amusing if it weren't so prevelant.

Yeah... I dont exactly consider it a sacrifice to have sex... hehe, and
I am certainly not one to "sacrifice" my life to the raising of 
children. It is my belief that sexuality is one of the roads to 
or peeks at a higher level which we have long been denied or at least 
warned off from... through the use of guilt and other mechanisms.

Karen:
Again I reitterate that it is my belief that we are here to learn 
how to be Human Beings not to deny our humanity. 
Response:
Or our divinity. ;>

Hehehe yuppers... point well taken... <wink>

X:
Even so, according to the progressive stages of life
outlined in the system of varnas and ashramas, at around age 50 or so, the
husband and wife would abstain from further sex and prepare themselves to
reach their spiritual destinations at the time of death.  
Karen:
Yeah, since hormonal activity is necessary to maintain a body over a 
long and healthy life, this would follow, that one should then prepare
for death... unless of course the person has evolved so far as to be
capable of stimulating his adrenal glands... this is very rare in 
the general populace...!!
Response:
Interesting.  It is my understanding that this story about sex-life
dropping off after a certain age is the most horrible of FICTIONS!
I hope, if this is indeed the case, that if this fiction is taken as
fact the two meet somewhere and have some tea.  Is either X OR Karen
near 50 and thus representing a view from EXPERIENCE here?
Go gonads go!!!

Cheer!! etc... hehe I think so too!! I have a Mom in her late 60's
to prove that very point... and yes, I am 47, and have not even begun
to slow up on the hormonal levels...!!!!! In fact the doc says I have 
the normal hormone levels for a 25-30 year old. <grin> I cant imagine
not having any sex drive. It would make life pretty dull. I would
feel dead if I didnt get those body rushes.  :-)

Note regarding my own preferences:
I like to think that the mundane and the divine are ONE.  Humanity/Nature
and God are One also, and the Buddha teaches me to find my connection,
as the Child of the Divine, to that perfect Oneness which transcends and
infuses all apparent separation.  Kali asks me to make love with Her.
She says that neither She nor I shall survive the experience, yet we
shall be together in eternal timeliness.
And yes, I think that something incredible worthwhile ('spiritually'?  yes)
can be achieved when one takes the time to engage in an afternoon's rutting.
Is sex bad?  Is God?  Is Buddha?  What DOES 'bad' mean, anyway?

Its obvious that I was using the word differently than you were...
I was using it in the context of being horny to the point of not
caring who you did it with. That doesnt sound like what you had in mind.
I could be wrong.... straighten me out if so... <smile>

Net hugs! 

Karen.


-- 
    Love is the answer...
	Communication Facilities Designer
	Freelance in the Land of Enchantment              Albuquerque, NM
	karenm@yenta.alb.nm.us                             (505) 266-8659
Xref: sparky talk.religion.newage:4518 alt.alien.visitors:7135 sci.skeptic:17343