HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: keith@scorpio.ic.cmc.ca (Keith de Solla)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Canadian gun laws
Date: 17 Aug 92 22:34:11 GMT
Organization: Canadian Microelectronics Corporation

As part of the new gun legislation in Canada, the government has
released a list of weapons that will be newly classified as of October
1st, 1992.  

1. prohibited without 'grandfather' clause
   - this is a short list of weapons including the EVIL (tm) SPAS-12

2. prohibited with 'grandfather' clause
   - this is a longer list with many 'assault-pistol' type weapons
   such as MAC, Scorpion, etc

3. restricted
   - this is a long list contained many military type weapons which
   were previously unrestricted such as AK series, AR-15 and variants

Weapons on list 1 must be disposed of or rendered inoperable by Oct 1st.
The rest of the weapons must be disposed of or registered by Oct 1st.
Note also that these new classifications do not apply to criminals :-)

-------------------------------------------------------------------
| Keith P. de Solla        | "I don't enforce the law, I regulate |
| CMC                      |  human behaviour"                    |
| keith@orion.ic.cmc.ca    |    - Commissioner Scali              |
From: forda@gtephx.UUCP (Andrew Ford @ AGCS, Phoenix, Arizona)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Old Powder/Primers & kids
Date: 12 Aug 92 13:33:32 GMT
Organization: gte

In article <1992Aug4.133404.8785@porthos.cc.bellcore.com>, fist@iscp.Bellcore.COM (Richard Pierson) writes:
[...]
# **CAUTION**
# You have to have eyes in the back of your head when
# taking kids to a range and have to explain many times
# why they have to wait till everyone is done shooting
# before moving downrange to see their targets and replace
# them. BRING A SET OR TWO OF BINOS, GET THE KIDS THEIR
# OWN MUFFS. I figured I was used to teaching range safety
# by now.
# Any one have any suggestions on how to impress on kids the
# amount of damage a bullet can do, one suggestion was to
# shoot a water filled plastic milk jug with a .22 hollow point
# and watch it explode, any others besides shooting the neighbors
# chihauhua (sp?) that loves to nip ankles :-{)
# 

I've always remembered my first lesson in gun safety:  my stepdad took
me hunting.  I'll never forget the sound of that rabbit howling nor the
sight of it's body.  IMHO, this is the way to show (as opposed to teach)
the child why gun safety is important.

For those who don't like hunting or may have sensitive children, I think
a few cantaloupes would be an ideal example: cantaloupes are about the same
size as a small child's head and (if they behave like most other fruits
and vege's) will make a fairly impressive mess upon being shot.  (close range
with a 12 guage/04 buck would probably make an excellent demonstration.)
[I've heard that watermelons will also explode nicely, but I think the 
size and shape of a cantalope is easier for a child to identify with being
shot in the head.]

FLAME ON

SHOOTING THE NEIGHBORS' CHIHUAHUA?  Now there's a way to teach a child 
gun safety -- "Hey junior, when somebody pisses you off, pull out your
gun and blow 'em away!"

Even joking about it is not safe around kids!





-- 
"25 States allow anyone to buy a gun, strap it on, and walk down the street with
no permit of any kind: some say it's crazy.  However, 4 out of 5 US murders are 
committed in the other half of the country: so who is crazy?"   -  Andrew Ford
gtephx!forda@enuucp.eas.asu.edu  OR  !uunet!samsung!romed!enuucp!gtephx!forda
From: kdlin@advtech.uswest.com (David Lin)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Gun Safe
Date: 18 Aug 92 21:36:55 GMT
Organization: U S WEST Advanced Technologies

Hello gang!

I'm going to purchase a gun safe. I'll appreciate it if anyone can
answer my questions.

(1) A local gun store told me that a Browning safe is the only way
    to go and all other brands are not worthwile to get. Is that
    true? If not, what other brands should I consider?

(2) He wants to charge me: the whole sale price + $50 profit + tax + shipping.
    Is that a good deal? ( Shipping is about $60 in this case. )

(3) I've seen a few gun safe ads. in the Shotgun News. Anyone has had
    experiences with them? Any disadvantages to buy a safe from them?

Thanks.

David
-- 
K. David Lin, Ph.D.		| E-mail: kdlin@uswest.com
Member Technical Staff		| Space reserved for future expansion.		
U S WEST Advanced Technologies	| Disclaimer: Only personal opinions.
From: burge@qdeck.com (Bill Burge)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Chronographs, pressure tape
Date: 20 Aug 92 13:07:10 GMT
Organization: Quarterdeck Office Systems, Santa Monica CA

In article <Bt7078.6LB@news.cso.uiuc.edu> cbl@uihepa.hep.uiuc.edu (Chris Luchini) writes:
#	Oehler has a good one, Pact is a good one, the Chrony is cheap
#	and accurate as the pact ones, but it's very easy to shoot a hole
#	in it. I'd go with one of the first two.
##

I have a Pact that I am very happy with.  I don't think that your comment 
on the Pact compared with the Chrony is a good one.  THe Pact compares more
with the Oehler and surpasses it some respects, I believe.  THe first Pacts
sampled 2 or 4 times more often than the Oehler.

#	Strain guage. Unless you have a ocilliscope, you only
#	get the peak of the pressure curve. It's basicly only for bolt
#	or TC type guns. I imagine you could mount it on a Luger, but
#	anything with a moving barrel will rip the leads off the strain guage.
#
#	There is a Handloader article on it, I'll see if I can dig it up
#	and send you a copy snailmail.
#-Chris L

Chris,

Could also post the Issue No. here.  I would be interested in getting it
from back issues (if I don't have it already).

Thanks,

Bill	burge@qdeck.com
From: cmort@ncoast.org (Christopher Morton)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Glock 23
Date: 18 Aug 92 17:14:15 GMT
Organization: North Coast Public Access *NIX, Cleveland, OH

As quoted from <1992Aug17.143527.6240@CERIS.Purdue.EDU> by jheath@fieldofdreams.npirs.purdue.edu (Jim Heath):

# 
# I recently lucked into a used Glock 23 (smaller .40 S&W).  It was
# $380 and he threw in a box of ammo as well.  Do they all come
# with 2 magazines?  I thought they did, but my friend who wanted

All the ones I've seen including mine, came with two.

# case, mine came with 2.
# 
# I found it to be a little difficult to hold on to at first, but
# it seemed to get better with "practice".  I wish it had
# adjustable sights, for the 4 people who shot it, it did not come

Buy a pair of shooting gloves.  I like the Browning gloves with the leather
palms and mesh backs.  They make a world of difference.

I bought the Pachmayer adjustable rear sight for mine.  It works just fine.

-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------  

"Well whose opinions did you THINK these were...?" 
------------------------------------------------------------------  
"It's 11:59pm, do you know where your congressman's checkbook is?"
------------------------------------------------------------------ 
Christopher Morton
{uunet|backbone}!ncoast.org!cmort                      cmort@ncoast.org
From: donb@igor.tamri.com (Don Baldwin)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: 9mm Information
Date: 12 Aug 92 23:34:01 GMT
Organization: TOSHIBA America MRI, South San Francisco, CA

In article <1992Aug10.205916.709@ttinews.tti.com> hollombe@polymath.tti.com
(The Polymath) writes:

#}    Can some of you give your opnions on the most lethal 9mm round available?
#
#COR-BON claims 90.9% one shot stops based on actual shootings with their
#115 gr 9mm +P.
#
#Note, neither of the above ratings have anything to do with "lethality."
#They are chances of stopping an attack with one shot, regardless of
#whether or not the attacker dies.

Question:  can any 9mm Parabellum/Luger pistol fire +P rounds?

#I've been told by at least one ER surgeon that the most lethal round is
#the .22.  They tend to "rattle around" inside the body after penetrating,
#leaving a trail of destruction behind them.  The slug is almost never
#found anywhere near the entry wound.  Victims eventually die of internal
#bleeding.

They're also supposed to cause very septic wounds, being coated with
lubricant as they are...

    don
From: dcwst8+@pitt.edu (David C Winters)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Top Man Stoppers???
Date: 14 Aug 92 19:11:17 GMT
Organization: University of Pittsburgh


In article <1992Aug13.225403.28443@henson.cc.wwu.edu> n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio) writes:
#jheath@fieldofdreams.npirs.purdue.edu (Jim Heath) writes:
#
#>Does anyone make specialty loads like these:
#
#>I have heard of people crimping a pair of fishing weights on the
#>ends of a length of nylon fishing line.  One guy who tried it
#>said it cut off an 8 inch (diameter) tree very neatly.
#
#Yeah sure:  The story I heard was that it cut a fire hydrant. ;-)
#
#Jim "I read it in alt.folklore.urban, so it must be true" Del Vecchio


And another urban legend:

That there's a place somewhere in the South (for some strange reason,
the location seems to change....) called the Blammo Ammo Company, and it
markets specialty ammunition.  One of their products is *said* to be a
12-gauge, high-speed bola, made by sticking two lead spheres on either
end of a five-inch piece of piano wire...

--
David Winters
dcwst8@unix.cis.pitt.edu *OR* winters@vms.cis.pitt.edu

	Illigitimi non carborundum

[MODERATOR:  Don't try this at home, kids....]
From: sorrow@maple.circa.ufl.edu
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Determining muzzle energy
Date: 20 Aug 92 21:41:08 GMT
Organization: Center for Instructional and Research Computing Activities


This is probably a FAQ, however I need to know what exactly is used to
determine "muzzle energy" as per ballistics tables use...something like
pound-feet or foot-pounds ( always get the two mixed up :-) 

Anyway, I need to figure it out based on caliber, velocity, and mass of the
projectile.  And I need to get a reasonable figure suitable for comparison
against one of the aforementioned charts.

Thanks,

Brian
From: burge@qdeck.com (Bill Burge)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Trap, Skeet, Sporting Clays ?
Date: 14 Aug 92 13:31:12 GMT
Organization: Quarterdeck Office Systems, Santa Monica CA


The company that I work for sponsors a Clay shooter who is coming to the
US for a match.  He is looking for a source of his pet ammo.  Usually good
at this sort of stuff I have little luck in finding:

RC 12guage 32gr 7's or 8's

Any help would be GREATLY appreciated.

Bill	burge@qdeck.com
From: hollombe@polymath.tti.com (The Polymath)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Stupid shooter tricks
Date: 17 Aug 92 22:34:03 GMT
Organization: The Cat Factory

In article <65983@hydra.gatech.EDU> vapspgd@prism.gatech.edu (Edward Hefter) writes:
}
}... I have the
}toughest time convincing friends to keep their hands below the curve (the one
}that should fit nicely *above* your hand on the back of the grip). ...

When renting semi-autos, the local range explains it this way:

    "Blood makes the gun rust.  We don't like that."

The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe, M.A., CDP, aka: hollombe@polymath.tti.com)
Head Robot Wrangler at Citicorp                   Turn the rascals out!
3100 Ocean Park Blvd.   (310) 450-9111, x2483     No incumbents in '92!
Santa Monica, CA  90405
From: hollombe@polymath.tti.com (The Polymath)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Glock & SIG Triggers
Date: 12 Aug 92 23:33:50 GMT
Organization: The Cat Factory

In article <1992Aug8.003336.26556@michael.apple.com> ems@michael.apple.com (E. Michael Smith) writes:
}
}#IMHO, it [the Glock 17L] is wholly
}#inappropriate for defense use by either law enforcement or civilians, and any
}#person considering so using one would be making a grave mistake.

}So please elaborate.  What makes it 'wholly inappropriate for defense'?

A 3.5 pound trigger pull.

Besides the obvious safety issue, the prosecuting attorney will make
mincemeat of you.  All they have to do is convince the jury (with the aid
of professional expert witnesses) that you pulled the trigger by accident.
Regardless of the situation, an AD is _never_ justifiable homicide.
You'll get tagged for manslaughter, at least, maybe 2nd degree murder.
_Then_ the perp ... er ... victim's relatives will come out of the
woodwork and sue you into bankruptcy.

Obviously, if it's all you've got in a life-or-death situation, you use
it.  Purchasing one with the intent of using it for defense qualifies as
what my ADA friend used to call "felony stupid."

The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe, M.A., CDP, aka: hollombe@polymath.tti.com)
Head Robot Wrangler at Citicorp                   Turn the rascals out!
3100 Ocean Park Blvd.   (310) 450-9111, x2483     No incumbents in '92!
Santa Monica, CA  90405
From: spf@hoqaa.att.com (Steven P Frysinger)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Chain Shot (was Re: bolo ammunition)
Date: 19 Aug 92 15:13:38 GMT
Article-I.D.: cbnewsl.1992Aug19.123736.4803
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories

#From article <1992Aug17.175436@IASTATE.EDU>, by jessie@iastate.edu (Brent Danielson):
# In article <0C2B4801B4BF200ADE@VXC.UNCWIL.EDU>, PATE@VXC.UNCWIL.EDU (BILL PATE,
# ADMIN. SERVICES, PATE@VXC.UNCWIL.EDU) writes:
# # #>>>>>>> They had other strange things like two halves of a slug that were
# # #connected by a segment of piano wire.  Theoretically they would make a bolo
# # #while in flight (actually these were used to be used in the days of wooden
# # #ships and cannons, made a mess of the other guys rigging).
# # 
# # This reminds of a cannon innovation which came about during the War for
# # Southern Independence (a.k.a. Civil War). The cannon was double-barreled.
# # The cannon balls were connected with a length of chain. The purpose was to
# 
# The cannon was invented by the South.  I believe only one was made.  It never
# worked very well since the timing of the ignition in both barrels must be
# exactly the same to avoid whipping one ball around the end of the gun and
# decapitating the operators.

But, as I'm sure most of you know, chain shot was in use for many years
before this (bar shot too).  Chain shot was a split ball or pair of balls
connected by a chain in a SINGLE barrel, and was indeed effective at taking
down ships' rigging.  Bar shot was similar, except that the two halves
were connected by solid bars, each looped around the other (hard to
describe) - when fired, each loop would slide down the shank of the other
half until the two loops were together, maximally extending the resulting
bar.

Steve
From: JEFFD@elmer.hls.com (Dempsey, Jeff)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Glock 22 opinions
Date: 18 Aug 92 12:25:04 GMT



	I am interested in opinions of the Glock model 22 .40S&W pistol.  I
posted to this group earlier describing the theft or misplacement of my pistol
case while travelling from Atlanta to Chicago.  Once I have settled with
American Airlines I am considering replacing my model 21 .45 with the
aforementioned model.  I like the idea of 14+1, and the grip size is more
manageable.  I have large enough hands for the model 21 but would consider the
model 22 for several reasons.  The smaller package is more concealable and
likely to be comfortable for extended periods of wear.  I know the ballistics
are real close to what the .45 can do.

	I welcome all input to this issue, and have plenty of time to think
about it, as it takes a month for the airlines to settle up.
From: baechler@lia.di.epfl.ch (Emmanuel Baechler)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: .357 vs 9mm and Revolvers vs Semi-autos  (was: 1st gun= .22? )
Date: 20 Aug 92 13:08:32 GMT


# I have two questions: First, if .357s and 9mm are about the same size
# in bullet diameter, what are the advantages and disadvantages of
# either round?  Do .357s have more stopping power?

The best .357 rounds, i.e. the Remington and Federal .357 125 Gr JHP
cartridges have more stopping power than the best +P and +P+ 9mm ammo.
This does however not mean that any .357 cartridge will be more efficient
than any 9mm ammo.

# Second: what are the advantages of using a revolver in .357?  I am
# looking for something that uses cheaper .38 ammo for practice.  Do
# semi-autos use more expensive rounds than revolvers in .38?  How about
# reliability and accuracy?  I'm leaning towards a semi-auto becuase of
# the larger round capacity.  By the way, I've been using a S&W Classic
# Hunter .357 at my local range.

The main advantage of .357 revolvers is their versatility. You can shoot
loads varying from the very mild .38 Spal midrange wadcutter, used for UIT
competitions, to the hottests .357 magnums. Second, some of these hot .357,
the ones mentionned above, are the most efficient loads for self defense.

Here, the cheapest 9mm ammo is around two thirds the price of the cheapest
.38 and .357, so the price of the ammo is not an advantage for the .357
revolvers. Both reliability and accuracy depend on design and on the quality
of the manufacturing. You can find some excellent guns in both classes.

Another difference is that there is more compact 9mm than compact .357, and
a compact gun makes concealed carry more efficient.

You will have to determine which advantages are important for you, and with
which inconvenients you can live, in order to make your choice.

Emmanuel Baechler.                        | Tel.: ++41-21-693-2732
Laboratoire d'Intelligence Artificielle   | e-mail: baechler@lia.di.epfl.ch
Ecole Polytechnique Federale de Lausanne  |     or: baechler@liasun6.epfl.ch
MA-Ecublens                               | Standard Disclaimer
CH-1015 Lausanne	Switzerland

Ban the bomb. Save the world for conventional warfare.
From: jmeredit@ferris.cray.com (James Meredith)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Top Man Stoppers???
Date: 18 Aug 92 17:13:45 GMT
Organization: Cray Research, Inc.

In article <9208172150.AA11305@flubber.cs.UMD.EDU> you write:
#In article <13400008@iftccu.boeing.com> bressler@iftccu.ca.boeing.com (Rick Bressler) writes:
#
##You will note that the equipment is listed as a (distant) third.  As
##just about all the experts I've met and talked to have said, there is no
##such thing as a magic bullet.  Once you are able to hit reliably with
##your firearm, you can perhaps gain a bit of an edge with the proper
##ammunition, but it is only a bit.  ALL handgun rounds are woefully
##inadequate to ensure good stops against anything larger than a decent
##sized rat.
#
#That last is actually quite accurate.  I was hunting moles out at the
#ranch (they were tunneling right for me!)  So, I got out my .45 with
#the 185gr Federal JHP's and blasted away.  Emptied a magazine and
#didn't hit it.  I did stun it though, and when I dug it up it was
#staggering around dazed for a little bit.  I turned it over and
#noticed a rather small exit wound.  Searching the other side produced
#and entry wound.  I quickly dispatched it with a head shot, but it
#pointed out a few things to me.  One, living things can absorb a huge
#amount of damage and continue to live and move around for a while, and
#two, overpenetration, and underexpansion is a Bad Thing (tm) when
#attempting to stop your target.  While this isn't meant to be
#extrapolated from, it did point out an extreme.
#
#
[.sig deleted]

On my last trip to my dad's ranch, I had an experience opposite of this.
I was using 185gr Silvertips and the victim was a jackrabbit.  I too
stunned him with misses first.  However a hit from approx 20 yards
destroyed the hip area.  Perhaps it was because I hit bone, but I
experienced good expansion.
From: nsc!jrr@decwrl.dec.com (Jerry Roe)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Top Man Stoppers???
Date: 19 Aug 92 00:32:45 GMT
Organization: National Semiconductor, Santa Clara

In article <1992Aug12.180442.13685@news.eng.convex.com> cash@convex.com (Peter Cash) writes:
#In article <1992Aug11.040843.18819@henson.cc.wwu.edu> n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio) writes:
#
...discussion of defense firearm...
#
##Oh, I forgot to mention.  He lives in a trailer miles away from anyone.
#
#Well in THAT case, I recommend the Mini-14! The recoil is _very_ light,
#it's very reliable, it's abundantly accurate enough for close-range use,
#and a 30-round magazine would provide more than enough fire power. And the
#holes in his trailer should be small enough that they're easy to patch. 8^)
#Soft-point ammo would probably be best. 

Mostly yes, but when I got my new stainless Mini-14 Ranch Rifle, I had
to have it slicked up by a gunsmith because it wasn't cycling reliably.
It's fine now but apparently had some rough edges in the operating-rod
grooves along the sides of the receiver.  It's re-stating the obvious for
me to say this, but ANY gun intended for defensive use needs to be
reliability-tested before you depend on it.


Jerry Roe
jrr@nsc.nsc.com		...!{sun,pyramid,decwrl)!nsc!jrr
From: qui@aus.hf.intel.com (qui hoang)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: (null)
Date: 12 Aug 92 23:33:54 GMT

Hello,

Following our MODERATOR advice "get one of each", I'm buying a HK P7 pistol.
I have not decided which model, the P7-M8 (8+1 rounds) or the P7-M13 (13+1
rounds). I'm looking for opinions from P7 users, considering:

   - this would not be my primary carry gun (my Glock 19 or Sig 228 is OK
     for that purpose.) 
   - my hand size is small -> average, but I can handle the Glock or Sig.  
   - the P7-M13 costs $250 more (almost enough to buy a Daewoo Fast Action!)
   - which one might have a better resale value later.

On the ammo question, can I use the IMI +P Carbine load in the P7 or Sig 228 ?
My Glock 19 loves hot loads, but I don't know about the Sig alloy frame, or the
P7 gas-delayed blow-back action.

   Thank you very much.

   QH
From: aj336@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Pat Weber)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Stupid shooter tricks
Date: 17 Aug 92 17:53:30 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio, (USA)


My dad told me that while he was in the Army, they were training by
shooting wooden bullets. Apparently, one the curious, yet more stupid
soldiers decided to test the strength of his steel helmet.
However, instead of taking his helmet off forst, and then shooting it,
he merely turned the rifle to his helmeted head and pulled the trigger.
A wooden bullet splinter (?) passed thru the steel and lodged into his
skull. All but the soldier were amused. He survived the incident.
From: erudnick@pica.army.mil (FSAC-SID)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Top Man Stoppers??
Date: 20 Aug 92 21:41:51 GMT


Craig A. Anderson writes:
#For real man stoppers things other than cannon balls have been used in times
#of lack of standard ammunition, things that come to mind are kegs of nails and
#crobars.  Be interesting to see what a mess these rounds mad, from behind the
#cannon of course :-)


Things like bar and chain shot (two shot connected by a bar or chain, 
respectively) for cutting masts and rigging, and canister and grape for
antipersonnel work on land and sea, are very common.

I read a biography of a Norwegian admiral ("Admiral Thunderbolt", by
Hans Christian Adamson) in the 18th century who employed more
_interesting_ munitions. A favorite was bags of miscellaneous scrap
metal. Iron bars several feet long were good - these spun through the air
and amputated things (he once had the captain of a ship he was on cut
in half - after the Swedes caught on to these tricks and used them as well).

One incident described was when he and a small crew in his personal yacht 
were caught by a Swedish sloop. He had only a couple of small guns, not
enough to damage his opponent, so the guns were used against the crew of
the sloop. Silverware crammed into the bore and fired was apparently
quite effective :)

Apologies for any factual errors; I read the book years ago and Craig's
posting jarred some fond ( :) ) memories.


Ed Rudnicki     erudnick@pica.army.mil     All disclaimers apply
Protect the Second Amendment - boycott Ruger products
"That's not true," Bill hissed to his lawyer. "The facts are-"
"Don't worry about facts, Bill, no one else here does. Facts can't
alter this case."       -"Bill the Galactic Hero" Harry Harrison