From: adams@spss.com (Steve Adams)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: And over to you Sean... (a mixed bag of subjects)
Date: 7 Jan 93 19:49:15 GMT
Organization: SPSS Inc.

hartigan@ac.dal.ca writes:

>>Right, at least from what I can see from this vantage point.  There are
>>many things that I 'know' that give rise to skepticism.  I can give you all
>>of the counter-arguments for most of my beliefs, and, in the past, I've
>>argued them to a winning conclusion...bleh.  Great for debate class, and
>>great for defending ones position (when you know the other side's
>>arguments, you're up one point), but lousy when trying to keep one's
>>beliefs in line.  The free-will/predesitnation discussion was a tough one
>>on me...
>
>For what it's worth, I think what you're up against is a conflict between
>your ideals and the world you find yourself in. I sympathize with the
>desire to believe in God, I think I understand it; I know at some level
>I share it. Same for free will. These beliefs have a certain beauty,
>and more than that, they both take our minds of the imminence of death,
>_and_ promise an escape from death. 
So in the end, you think that God and free-will are both simply illusions
that I use to keep myself sane?  Perhaps 'illusion' isn't the right word,
but it does seem to fit.  Not saying *I* think they are illusionary, just
that it seems to be where you're trying to (nicely) lead me...

>These beliefs account admirably for _certain aspects_ of our experience. 
>The beauty we see in nature, the affection we have for other people --
>these things appear to validate these beliefs. But it is only possible
>to maintain these beliefs by selectively excluding from one's consciousness
>the elements of experience that _invalidate_ them. And there are a few.
Sure...and this is the genesis (pardon the pun!) of my problem.  I do see
the contradictions and invalidations.  And I need to find a way to deal
with them.  But I want to keep my basic beliefs, too.  In other words,
modify my positions, not radically change them.  Or, only crack the
illusion, not shatter it! ;-)

>>The irrelevence of God is something I cannot hold to.  To me, God is
>>totally relevent....this is the the core of our difference, I think.
>
>God is relevant as long as you want to be "saved." That is, as long as you
>want to have some external judge pronounce you "good."  If you no longer
>care about being good or evil, because you've seen that these two things
>are just artificial classifications with no real meaning, than you
>lose interest in being saved. The universe just _is_, and it is we
>who call this thing "good" and this thing "evil."  Now, even if 
>God himself calls X evil and Y good, that doesn't make it so. In other
>words, if God thinks good and evil are real, he's as deluded as we are. 
>Another reason I can't believe in this moralist God. God shouldn't
>be stupider than some of his creations. 

Actually, this seems somewhat of a monist position - God is responsible for
everything good and bad.  The question is whether or not God judges us
based on arbitrary "Good" and "Bad" or on merit....

Of course, this is a basic problem with justification by faith...if God
judges on merit, simple faith just ain't enough....

>>>And now, let's hear from the other camp....:)
>>Not from me, pal...I have problems with creationism...literal 24-hour days,
>>and all that.  Earth only ~4000 years old. &c.
> 
>What about the NT?  I feel the same way about that. Paul to me is far more
>fascinating as a temporal-lobe epileptic with the mother-of-all-bees in his
>bonnet than as yet another (yawn) preacher of the Good News.
That's the thing...I have no problem with the NT.  Paul isn't the focus of
the NT, Jesus is.

>>Well...in this case, then we revert back to the Gospels 'No man comes to
>>the father but by me.'  Now what?
>
>Ok, I'm willing to take that sentence at face value. The next question,
>it seems to me, then, is: if no one comes to the father but by Jesus,
>than who or what is the Father, and who is Jesus?  You tell me what you
>think and why, and then I'll do likewise.

The Father is God and Jesus is God.  They are one in the same.  To quote
the creed "of one being with the father."  Jesus was also a man, made
incarnate, etc, etc.  You probably know the creeds as well as I, and I do
believe the creeds.

Of course, there is the metaphorical aspect, which I suspect you'll be
happy to tell us about right now! ;-)

>>>>That leaves either free-will, predestination, or (!) no salvation (at least
>>>>as Christians know it).
>>>
>>>And we _know_ free will is out. Uh oh....
>>
>>Yeah, yeah...get off my case, eh? ;-)  When I do work all of this out (!)
>>you'll be the third to know (right after my PhD committee and publisher!)
>>:-)
>
>As long as I get mentioned in the saint's life of St. Steven of Chicago! 
That's "St. Stephen", but who's counting! ;-)

>I wanna be famous as the advocatus diaboli whose cunning dialogue
>led St. Steven to the revolutionary theology that finally brought about
>the conversion of the Jews, et al. and brought about the Millenium...:)
You got it...you'll get the dedication.  Boy will that piss off my wife!
;-)

>>>>To quote the Paulist party line, 'bad faith' is no faith...you have to
>>>>truly and completely accept Christ, his resurection and his divinity.
>>>>Anything less is no good.  In other words, you're screwed.
>>>
>>>So God created a being (me) that is incapable of doing what it has to do
>>>to be saved. Come on, Steve, baby...we're talking predestination here...:)
>> 
>>Well, God created Lucifer and Judas Iscariott...all things good and
>>bad...Isaiah says that God brings everything good and bad....
>
>Ouch...that means I was created in order to be a force for evil in the
>world? Well, heck.

Nah - you were created to be my own personal cross to bear! ;-)  (That's a
joke, son!)  But yeah, if you ask good ol' John Calvin, God created you
with the full intent to send you to hell.  See why I can't stand Calvinism?
Or Predestination?  I mean if you exercise free-will, then no problem.  But
otherwise?  Yech.

[on solving the free-will vs pre-destination vs ???]
>>>I think you may be out of luck on that point, but what do I know? 
>> 
>> I hope your wrong, but history doesn't bear out a great hope for me, now
>> does it?
>
>I don't think so. I suppose it's possible to just keeping being confused
>one day at a time. Do that enough times and it makes a lifetime. :)

And keep looking for a solution...keep on keeping on...

[on goals and freedom]

>> Ah...ok.  But what about having a wife and kids....;-)  That puts a
>> different spin on things...responsiblity, etc. ;-)
>
>I bet it does! But we are condemned to freedom. (Freedom, not free will! :)
>You are free whether you want to be or not. You can always walk away
>from your wife and kids. If you abandon your moral ideology, you will
>be free to do this or not do it. If you stay, it will be because you
>_want_ to, not because you feel you should. 

Can I walk away from my wife and kids?  I don't think so.  I guess perhaps
if I did completely abandon every moral that I had, but even so, I don't
think I could stop loving them, and that's enough to keep me from doing it.
Am I theoretically free to leave?  Yes.  Emotionally?  No.

>>In any event, I guess I need the guidance at this point in my life.  I need
>>some form of structure...
>
>Fair enough. I think I understand...we talk about freedom as if it were
>something inherently good, but freedom means: taking total responsibilty
>for everything you do. It means: realizing that no one can really help
>you, that you're on your own. This can be bloody frightening and a bit over-
>whelming. Also, freedom means morality must come from the "heart," because
>you no longer recognize an external code. But people who really _want_ to
>be good have never needed an external code to tell them how to do this,
>although sometimes they may think they do.

I agree....but it is comforting to have a code to measure oneself by.

 -Steve
--
  The opinions expressed above are those of the author and not SPSS, Inc.
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   adams@spss.com                                  Phone: (312) 329-3522
   Steve Adams        "Space-age cybernomad"       Fax:   (312) 329-3558
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc