HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: moh2@quads.uchicago.edu (Kateri/Mary Anne)
Subject: Re: To Marry (Indian) or Not?
Reply-To: moh2@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Distribution: na
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 19:10:05 GMT

In article <1992Oct12.222549.26417@cbnewsi.cb.att.com> alok@cbnewsi.cb.att.com (alok.vijayvargia) writes:

(Okay, I will grant, after reading this article that there are virtues
to be found in a paternalistic culture.  However, I feel that we can
retain these virtues without the vices that traditionally come along
with them.  The culture isn't all bad...it just needs improving.  I'm
not claiming american culture is perfect either...it could obviously
benefit from some of these virtues.>

>1) In a paternalistic traditional culture, children are well protected
>and supported. (Of course they have to compromise their freedom a little).

Surely we can protect and support children, yet give them freedom as
well?  Freedom to make small choices when they're younger, so they can
learn to make larger choices as they grow older...and support when
they make mistakes, as they will inevitably do.

>2) A lot of advice and company is usually available - you don't get
>lonely. In an individualistic culture, loneliness is a problem.

You can be lonely in the middle of a crowd, or in the midst of a
family.  It may happen more often in individualistic America...I
haven't found it a major problem, but I *like* being on my own.  It
may be more difficult for others.

>3) Major expenses are usually covered by elders, you have to pay them some 
>respect however.

How major are we talking about?  College?  Most american parents try
to pay for as much of college as they can...even if they have to take
out second mortgages.  Cars are a luxury....I will gladly pay elders
respect, but it has to be earned.

>4) Elders work as your free sales/PR agent. They talk good about you to 
>others. (They may be hard on you in private, but they usually will talk 
>good about you outside).

Friends and family fill the same function in America...I've been
looking at job statistics lately...over 90% of jobs found in the US
are found through friends and family, *not* college placement offices,
newspaper ads, etc.


>I have become Amita's Alok ...

Congratulations....

>Alok

 - Amirthi

-- 
The autumn leaves are falling like rain.
Although my neighbors are all barbarians,
And you, you are a thousand miles away,
There are always two cups at my table.		 - A T'ang Dynasty poem
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
From: c150-bt@po.berkeley.edu (Manish Vij)
Subject: Re: Indians in Western shows/films/etc. (was Re: Sprint commercials)
Organization: University of California, at Berkeley
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 18:49:11 GMT

Saeed Jaffer writes:  

>Question then: does someone remember ANY instance where Indians have been
>portrayed without the traditional stereotypical attributes?  That is, as
>members of the American "melting pot" or whatever?  The only thing I can think
>of is some of Professor Amar Bose's televised lectures (MIT prof and head of 
>the Bose speaker company).  In general, it seems that only academia has
>examples of all types of people minus the stereotypes.

I don't remember any...

>BTW, I really enjoy the stereotypical characters in THE PARTY, SHORT CIRCUIT,
>"The Simpsons", etc.  I find them hilarious.  They do offend, but they're also
>funny.  Do some people find them to offensive to enjoy at all?  One that
>really pissed me off was PASSAGE TO INDIA.  I almost walked out of that.

DOWN AND OUT IN BEVERLY HILLS has a cute Indian kid with a bad accent.
MISSISSIPPI MASALA is more realistic.
CITY OF JOY I found very condescending.
FREEJACK had an Indian villain, but he was not identified as such.

>It's interesting, but I despise mischaracterization of Muslims in the Western
>media, while stereotypical portrayals of South Asians don't bother me as much.
>Maybe this is because the Indian media itself ridicules the "juht" (villager)?
>the uneducated simple-minded thick-accented Indian?

I don't mind people making fun of the accent (usually a Bengali speaking
English, as in THE SIMPSONS and in SHORT CIRCUIT).  My Filipino roommate
last year used to do it, and my IA friends parody modern rock songs in
Indian accents and leave them on their answering machines.  And the
male relatives of Meena (Sarita Choudhury) in MISSISSIPPI MASALA are
hilarious.

I do mind scripts writing Indian roles in with shit-eating grins and a
really bad, intentionally horrible accent.  Especially when they're taking
crap from a white dude like Patrick Swayze who, after ROAD HOUSE, was 
rightfully blackballed from playing serious roles until, incomprehensibly,
CITY OF JOY.

-----

"Birdie num-num."  -- Peter Sellers, THE PARTY

"I am thinking first I am going to run, then I am going to scream."
   -- Ben Fisher, SHORT CIRCUIT

"Chutney squeeshee!"  -- the 7-11 babu in THE SIMPSONS


----

Manish
                                          /-\o /-()  -- -  --   -
   Manish Vij    ::    '89 EX500          \_/ \\/ )  -- -    --
   mvij@ocf.berkeley.edu                       |/_\  -- -  --   - 
                                                \_/.  .  . . ........
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
From: gagrawal@cs.tamu.edu (Gopal Agrawal)
Subject: Re: To Marry (Indian) or Not?
Organization: Computer Science Department, Texas A&M University
Distribution: na
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 05:14:00 GMT

In article <1992Oct13.191005.21948@midway.uchicago.edu> moh2@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>In article <1992Oct12.222549.26417@cbnewsi.cb.att.com> alok@cbnewsi.cb.att.com (alok.vijayvargia) writes:
>
>>2) A lot of advice and company is usually available - you don't get
>>lonely. In an individualistic culture, loneliness is a problem.
>
>You can be lonely in the middle of a crowd, or in the midst of a
>family.  It may happen more often in individualistic America...I
>haven't found it a major problem, but I *like* being on my own.  It
>may be more difficult for others.
>

I think everyone likes to be alone once in a while, some more than others.
But what I find disconcerting in US society is that you are almost always 
alone. Back in India, if you live in a small town/city you know everyone 
within a miles radius and if you are in a large city, you will know every
one within the adjoining 2-3 apartment complexes or if you live in one of 
those posh colonies, you will know everyone on that street 500 meters on 
either side of your house. This can be quite an advantage especially in 
situations like communal riots, strikes, bundhs etc. where all the neighbours
turn out to help and guard their property/family members collectively.

Here I don't even know my own next door neighbours even though I consider 
myself quite a sociable person. I guess one of the reasons for extensive 
damage during the LA riots was that everyone was left to fend for them
selves against the rioters. I didn't hear any reports of people banding 
themselves together to form protection groups. 

Ofcourse, both cultures have their positive and negative aspects. One of 
the negative aspects in India is that everyone pokes his/her (mostly 'her')
nose in others buisness. 

regards,
--   
   ______ ______ ______ ______ __  |\/\/\/|
    ____/  __  /  __  /  __  /  /  |  \  /|   LIFE'S COMPLEX - IT HAS 
   / __   /   /  /   /  /   /  /   | (o)(o)   REAL & IMAGINARY PARTS  
  /   /  /   /   ___/  __  /  /    C      _) 
_____/ _____/ __/   __/ __/ ______/ | \___|  
E-mail - gagrawal@cs.tamu.edu       |   /   All Std. Disclaimers apply.
From: raghavan@wk28.nas.nasa.gov (Venkatraman Raghavan)
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
Subject: Re: Sci-Fi and Indians (was Re: Desis on TV)
Date: 9 Oct 92 16:59:41 GMT
Organization: -

mece1xg@menudo.uh.edu (purna) writes:

   >finally, are there any indian sf writers? (I haven't heard of)
   >any, but i am sure there must be at least one!?  just curious....

I don't know of any, unless we claim Arthur C. Clarke to be Indian. 
His recent story in Time magazine has several characters who have 
indian names.

(There is a good SF writer who writes in tamil. Advance warning 
to Alok :-)  His name is Sujatha, yes, it is a man.)

   >peace,
   >-purna

Raghavan
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
From: raghavan@fred.nas.nasa.gov (Venkatraman Raghavan)
Subject: Re: Long hair and closemindedness (Was looking for attention?)
Organization: -
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 92 18:13:33 GMT
Distribution: na

In article <samaddar.718902971@dumbo> samaddar@siemens.com writes:

>So, let me modify my earlier claim that some guys wear long hair etc.
>to get -ve attention. Actually, the -ve attention they get is from their
>parents (and other II) and hence is actually +ve attention :-)
>
>- Sumitro
>
>P.S. I'm not "viscerally" against long hair. Just trying to understand
>     motives. At worst, it is a harmless rebellion against II parents.

I feel the discussions on this thread has been very constructive,
particularly of recent. But I think there are still a few gaps.

Kids do rebel, usually when they are 'pushed' against their will. 
But they don't do everything for that shock value.  I think in 
this case, having long hair, may be just the current fashion 
(which may be their only motive).  I remember wearing bell-bottom
pants, which were considered to be ugly by the older generation then. 
I don't remember doing it as a rebel act at all.

Raghavan
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 13:32:57 EDT
From: ARIJIT MAHALANABIS <AXM128@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
Subject: Re: Sci-Fi and Indians (was Re: Desis on TV)
 <1992Oct8.013742.25248@cs.cornell.edu>
 <1992Oct9.144141.29263@news2.cis.umn.edu>
 <1992Oct9.151316.23229@menudo.uh.edu>

rec.arts.startrek is probably a better place for this, but I think Khan's
middle name was Noonian. And I think he was supposed to be a Punjabi prince
(sorry Purna, I'm pretty sure he was Indian). BTW, why the heck are we
portrayed as complete ninnies on this show (I am a Trekkie but only a mild
one. Hence, I have the capacity to criticize it occassionally)? Of the three
times they show an Indian, one gets zapped by an alien life force, another
is gasping for breath on a huge screen in the back of a control room and the
third who is supposed to be this extra-intelligent lifeform is hoodwinked by
a swashbuckling twit with no acting talent. Talk about a lousy record. I'd
rather be a tribble. They seem to have a better record.

Arijit.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                             _____
The seven most beautiful sounds            O-| O |
in life:                                     |   |-O
Sa,Re,Ga,Ma,Pa,Dha,Ni.                       | O |
                                             =====
                                             |||||
                                             |||||
                                             |||||
Arijit Mahalanabis                           |||||
e-mail: AXM128@PSUVM.PSU.EDU                 |||||
        MAHALANA@CRAYOLA.CS.PSU.EDU          |||||
        ARIJIT@MATH.PSU.EDU                 / ||| \
                                           /  |||  \
                                          |   ---   |
                                           \_______/


------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: hira@cme.nist.gov (Ron Hira)
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
Subject: Re: Ten Best Reasons to Date Indian (Re:To marry (Indian) or not ?
Date: 9 Oct 92 21:04:45 GMT
Reply-To: hira@cme.nist.gov
Distribution: na
Organization: National Institute of Standards and Technology

In article <1992Oct6.200909.27965@menudo.uh.edu>, mba2@Rosie.UH.EDU (Puneet_S) writes:
|> From: mba2@Rosie.UH.EDU (Puneet_S)

|> >3) Because they are more family oriented, will take care of the kids
|> 
|> Yeah, but have you met the beer-guzzling, top-less bar going, chivas-regal
|> drinking guys I have.  As as general rule I might aggree with you, but
|> again it's becoming rarer.

What's wrong with the above guy? :-) I thoroughly enjoy the above with
the prediction that I'll be family oriented. :-)

Ron
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
From: sguha@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Saumyen Guha)
Subject: Re: IA Women List (since you asked...:-)
Originator: news@nimaster
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1992 15:09:29 GMT

In article <1992Oct8.194405.14558@midway.uchicago.edu> moh2@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>This is a joke.  This is only a joke.  If this were a real list, you
>would be given instructions on who to flame and how.  There may or may
>not be a real list in the future.  This is only a joke.
>
>Top 10 Reasons to Date/Marry IA Women
>
>10.  We're all exotically beautiful (really.  don't you believe me?)
>and your friends will envy you.
err.. I'm not going to marry for my friends. :0)

>
>9.   We have no opinions and will be guided by your wisdom.
That's exactly what my dog does.
>
>8.   Indian cooking (actually, yes)
Nothing new.

>
>7.   Same skin-color (please your relatives, friends, friends of
>relatives, relatives of...well, you get the idea...)

is it?? My skin simulate tar.:-)

>
>6.   We don't speak to other men.  We don't look at other men.
>We don't even think about other men.
But, you don't mind me talking to other women. Do you?

>
>5.   We can't drive. (You don't need to buy us cars, you always know
>where we are).
Oh no! I have to spend money to teach you driving then. Who
will do the grocery??

>
>4.   We're hard-working.  (We cook, clean, bear and raise children,
>and manage to give wonderful dinners every weekend to impress your
>boss and business partners).
Hmm.. sounds like a obedient wife(pet?) :-)

>~
>3.   We spend hours watching Indian movies on your VCR (and don't
                                               ^^^^^^^^
>interfere with your night life).
>
Hey, I thought your father is giving me that.

>2.   We won't ever tell you how much we hate football, cricket, etc...
>
>1.   It'll make your mother happy.
She is always happy.

>
>
>*****
>
> - Amirthi
>-- 
>The autumn leaves are falling like rain.
>Although my neighbors are all barbarians,
>And you, you are a thousand miles away,
>There are always two cups at my table.		 - A T'ang Dynasty poem


Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
From: moh2@quads.uchicago.edu (Kateri/Mary Anne)
Subject: Re: To marry (Indian) or not?
Reply-To: moh2@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 17:05:57 GMT

In article <BvpG9M.5EB@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> trinas@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Speedy Gonzalez) writes:

>Due to the odds, you're then just going to look at ONLY
>american men and NO Indian men?  An indian may not be
>sexist, while you may find an american who is?  Great
>reason for dating.  Contradicts what you say below. I don't
>know if this is what you're trying to say but this is
>how I take it.

Sigh...

Can I start over?  Trina, you're right.  My article was
self-contradictory because I failed to make the distinction between
what I, personally, do, and what I believe is the correct way to look
at this whole mess.

So....

1.  I (and some of my IA female friends, though not all) have found
the II and IA men we've dated to be more sexist, rude, and
incomprehensible (in varying degrees) than the non-Indians we know.
As a result, I refuse to go on blind dates anymore with Indians, and
resist my parents' efforts to match me up with one.  I *do* have many
Indian friends, and it's conceivable that I might end up in a
relationship with one of them.  Clear so far?  I'm not trying to say
this is a good or a bad thing....just a way some women look at things.

2.  One of the principles of this country is that all men are created
equal.  Thus, when I said that *as an American* there was no reason to
select Indians over other Americans, this is what I was referring to;
the belief that guys are guys....and some are more obnoxious than
others, but you can't effectively classify by race, and you shouldn't
cater to stereotypes by trying.  Given the relatively low percentage
of Indians in this country, if one is selecting guys on a
non-racially-biased basis, then it's unlikely that you will end up
with an Indian.  Of course tons of other factors come into play, which
in some women may make them more favorably inclined towards Indians,
and in other women will make them less favorably inclined (see above).

>Regards,
>Trina

 - Amirthi (devoutly hoping she has not simply added to the mass
confusion)


-- 
The autumn leaves are falling like rain.
Although my neighbors are all barbarians,
And you, you are a thousand miles away,
There are always two cups at my table.		 - A T'ang Dynasty poem
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
From: mece1xg@menudo.uh.edu (purna)
Subject: duck!  i said, DUCK!! :)
Organization: Dept. of Wizardry, Univ. of Houston
Distribution: na
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 15:33:54 GMT

dive, Dive, DIVE!!

<jump>  <duck>  <crawl>  *WHEW*!

finally, made it behind these bushes!  wow, with all of the firepower
of a "battle of the sexes" going on, i was sure i was watching the
Anita Hill/Clarence Thomas trials again :) :)

anyway, a few observations....

first, i am glad that a.c.u.a-i is doing well, and that we seem
to have a LOT of people and discussions on various (ok, mainly
one) topic.  however, i do notice that occasionally, people discuss
and respond to postings that i have not seen!  are these coming
from scia.  as we don't get that group around, i make a slight
request that people who post to that group cross-post to this one,
otherwise how else can i see ALL of the fireworks :)

second, i find this discussion about IImen/IIwomen/IAmen/IAwomen
very interesting.  groiwng up, i encountered only a few other
indians my age.  it was only after i got to college that i met
more, but a lot of these types of discussions didn't come up.
it's nice to see that there are others who have had such
wonderings/thoughts.

third...well...ah....never mind.  there is no third :)

peace,
-purna
From: hira@cme.nist.gov (Ron Hira)
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
Subject: Re: "Asians changing names to help job prospects"
Date: 9 Oct 92 20:57:56 GMT
Reply-To: hira@cme.nist.gov
Organization: National Institute of Standards and Technology

[Stuff about changing names deleted]

This is somewhat similar to what a white friend of mine said
to me recently. She was applying for clerical positions in
the Federal Gov't, and her father told her to change her 
place of birth from DC to Rockville, MD, so that the prospective
employers would know that she was white. Her father was a 
GS-14 (reasonably high up in the gov't ranks).

Thought I'd throw that one in.

Ron
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
From: moh2@quads.uchicago.edu (Kateri/Mary Anne)
Subject: Re: To Marry (Indian) or Not?
Reply-To: moh2@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Distribution: na
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1992 16:28:22 GMT

In article <1992Oct12.144745.12592@cbnewsi.cb.att.com> alok@cbnewsi.cb.att.com (alok.vijayvargia) writes:
>In article <1992Oct9.140042.12838@midway.uchicago.edu>, moh2@quads.uchicago.edu (Kateri/Mary Anne) writes:
>> >

>Agreed ! Do you know the best parts of your heritage ?

I try.....and I'm always willing to learn more.....when I have
time :-)

>A paternalistic traditional culture also has a positive side.
>Do you understand what the positive side of it is ?

Not really...explain, please?
>
>Now the big question is why you always turn to Americans but not Indians, 
>even though you believe that Indians can be helpful too ?
>

Probably two reasons...a) I know far more Americans than Indians...and
b) only with close Indian friends can I be sure that I won't be judged
as too americanized....I prefer people who judge me as myself.

>Sure. Would you like to move this group to the main heirarchy of
>newsgroups so that you can educate the Americans more effectively
>about the great IA culture ? First do you consider yourself an IA ? 
>

Main heirarchy?  You mean make it a soc group?  Sure.  I would
encourage americans to read and post here.  And, for better or for
worse, I'm afraid I *have* to consider myself an IA.  It's too much a
part of me, inwardly and outwardly, for me to just walk away from it.
I hate labels.

>>  - Amirthi

>Alok


-- 
The autumn leaves are falling like rain.
Although my neighbors are all barbarians,
And you, you are a thousand miles away,
There are always two cups at my table.		 - A T'ang Dynasty poem
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
From: pghol@ctp.com (Preeti Anissa Gholap)
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
Subject: Re: Moving this newsgroup to soc.culture hierarchy
Date: 12 Oct 92 17:29:01 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Cambridge Technology Partners

>In article <1992Oct8.211653.23616@cbnewsi.cb.att.com> alok@cbnewsi.cb.att.com (alok.vijayvargia) writes:

>>I would really like to see a couple of women being part of the team.
>>I am not sure if Mehul is a man or woman :-) (Mehul, no offense meant).
>>I would like to recommend inclusion of at least one of (Amirthi,
>>Preeti and Trina), provided she agrees ...

Just to say that I'm happy to help out in any way I can, though
I'm new to this process too... 
...and that I like saeed's suggestion for a name:
soc.culture.desi.american

1. its short
2. its unmistakeable (s.e. asians won't be confused)
3. its in line with appropriating the term "desi" and legitimizing
it while stripping it of any negative connotations (with respect
to the current posts on whether the term is appropriate)

The only problem i see with this name is that it seems to exclude
"desi's" outside the U.S. as does the present name. 
Maybe soc.culture.desi.world ?

-- Preeti pghol@ctp.com
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
From: sklautky@vaxa.weeg.uiowa.edu (Stephen Klautky)
Subject: Re: Compelling evolutionary reasons for inter-racial marriages (Re: Ten Best Reasons to Date Indian)
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: University of Iowa, Iowa City, IA, USA
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 07:14:00 GMT

In article <1992Oct7.163927.6229@Firewall.Nielsen.Com>
mgundeko@pcserver2.Naitc.Com (Murthy Gundekota) writes:

[on the refutation of bigotry]
>So this paleontologist from Kenya visiting Chicago recently
>thinks as follows:

>(i) color of skin is a factor related to the environmental conditions,
>    i.e. hot vs. cold 
>(ii) features are also derived from the environment
>(iii) the differences among features is very little in various cultures

Yes, this certainly sounds reasonable.

>Finally, even though we don't know of any breakthroughs from 
>inter-racial marriages, going by one definition of evolution: to adapt
>for the future, we can still hope that inter-racial marriages in this
>society will help architect a better civilization than it is now, in 
>terms of their value system.

I think you could be right here (or at least I would like to think
so).

Interracial marriages have to address issues that a lot of people
avoid.  In the process of working out these issues I think these
people have engaged in the kinds of discussions that are sorely needed
by whole communities whose cultures cross/interact.
 - a lot of understanding, patience, give-and-take, and a willingness
   to change opinions in the face of new facts.

-=] Stephen [=-    SKLAUTKY@VAXA.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU



Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian