From: rhayden@oracle.com (Ronald Hayden)
Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.politics.homosexuality
Subject: Re: Call/Fax/Write Fernandez
Date: 24 Dec 92 18:15:59 GMT
	<1gsts1INNhov@hp-col.col.hp.com>
Organization: Oracle Corporation, Belmont, Ca.
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In article <1gsts1INNhov@hp-col.col.hp.com> smithw@col.hp.com (Walter Smith) writes:

   Ever 
   get to Colorado Springs?  

Alas, I'm suffering a severe shortage of money, and will be for quite
a while.

'course, if I had it, I'm not one to be traveling to Colorado at the
moment.  But by the time I DO have money, I imagine this will have
been resolved.

   Yeah, I can see what you mean there.  But I think the differences would 
   be somewhat like the difference in conversations I'd have with a friend 
   who is a big hockey fan (like me) and one that doesn't like sports. 
   If I had a gay family member, I'd find it natural to talk about their
   SO (or whatever term) and them.  But like I said above, that probobly 
   doesn't mean much in an impersonal medium like this. 

But for many people, reference to a gay girlfriend/boyfriend/spouse is
out of bounds.  It makes them think about things they don't want to
think about.  It grosses them out on some level.

If you really would find it natural to discuss such things without
feeling strange about it, then that's a good sign (in my mind) that
you're on the road to acceptance.

   > (I certainly usually steer
   > clear of religious conversations with most people whom I find to be
   > "way out there" about religion...sort of like trying to talk sexuality
   > with Clayton...)  

   Maybe I'm just wierd, that's *exactly* what I'd do...does tend to 
   irritate my Jehovah's Witness in-laws, though...;_)  

That's a difference between us.  I can only discuss things with
someone who (whether they agree or disagree with me) is on this side
of rationality.  I just can't deal with someone whose entire belief
system is flawed from the beginning.  A Jehovah's Witness being a good
example... 

   > You are not going to treat their
   > boyfriend/girlfriend/spouse with the appropriate deference/respect you
   > might to a heterosexual spouse.  How can you if you believe that the
   > entire relationship is unnatural?

   Now that just plain isn't true.  They are human beings just as much as 
   me.  In my family, we haven't had any instances where this has happened, 
   so this is all hypothetical again.  But we have had open, unmarried 
   boyfriends and girlfriends, and even though certain aspects of the 
   situation were viewed as wrong, the people were accepted and respected,
   invited to Thanksgiving and Christmas, and made to feel welcome. And 
   this is in a staunchly Catholic family.  There is no doubt in my 
   mind that the same would be the case if the relationship were a 
   homosexual one.  Acceptance of *people* does not have to depend on 
   acceptance of actions; believe it or not, people *can* treat others
   with respect and human dignity, even if they disagree with things.

For you, perhaps.  And that's good.  But this is another case where
you're transferring your behavior onto other people, and that's
inaccurate.  I know a guy who's had a gay spouse for fourteen years.
His spouse is still referred to as "that son-of-a-bitch", and is not
welcome in the family house.

I know my family.  When I contacted them recently, my siblings tell me
that my mother was more excited than she had ever been -- she wanted
me home for christmas.  Then she got a letter from me, making it clear
that sexuality is a part of my life, and is not going away.  After
that, my brother tells me "She just doesn't want to see you as long as
you're gay."

You may have missed a thread here a few weeks ago, called "Asshole
parents", about parents who disowned their kid, refused to acknowledge
her *or* her child, and wouldn't even talk on the phone with her.

This is the rest of the world, Walter.  This is what we live with
every day.  People who can be reasonably open despite their trouble
dealing with the concept (like the feelings you've expressed) are
reasonably few and far between.

The problem is that you tend to project how we should act/react to
people based on who you are.  It's another case where you have to step
back and look at the rest of the world.

   > If they want the relationship to be based on "we just won't talk about
   > THOSE things", then it won't continue.  Fortunately, I feel optimistic
   > about this.

   What if they are willing to talk about them, even though they dont 
   agree with it, and may never?  ie, the talking isn't meant to 
   dissuade *either* side; but just to share in each other's lives? 

Then at most it's likely to be a casual relationship.

It seems like some people want to have it both ways -- they want to
judge, yet not have the consequences that come with judging.  In my
opinion, people who "think homosexuality is wrong but treat
homosexuals just the same" are avoiding something.  They aren't
dealing with internal issues (about religion, about life).  They just
want to whistle past the sexuality issue and have everything else
remain the same.

At some point, once you realize that gays are normal people who
reflect the full range of humanity and don't fall into little
stereotypical boxes, you have to re-evaluate your belief system.  This
is not a pleasant prospect.  Parents who don't completely reject their
child sometimes come to this point, realizing that there is nothing
wrong with the child, they have to look at the rest of their beliefs.
And if they do so honestly, that often leads to changes in themselves.
Sometimes they leave their church (if the church is telling them
things about their child that they know are untrue), sometimes they
get involved in helping make things better for gays.

I often recommend this book, and I'll do it again.  It's called Beyond
Acceptance, and it's written by parents from P-FLAG (Parents and
Friends of Lesbians and Gays).  It mostly consists of pieces of
interviews with parents as they go through the process of dealing with
their child's sexuality.

Anyway, re-evaluating your belief system is no easy task.  And I think
that's what some people are avoiding by trying to have it both ways...
--

  - Ronald Hayden

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   | Documentation Manager, Oracle Toolkit Group                    |
   | Co-chair of Oracle Lambda, Oracle's Gay/Lesbian/Bisexual group |
   | Writer, magician, and various other things                     |
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