HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: tmi@netcom.com (Peter Alan Kasler)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Loaded Clips
Date: 13 Oct 92 13:18:50 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)

In <9210130106.AA102274@nike.calpoly.edu> ehorne@zeus.calpoly.edu (Eric T Horne) writes:

#  I was told by someone that it is LEGAL to carry a UNLOADED weapon in
#  California without any type of permit (except for the registration of
#  the weapon, probably) so long as you do not have on your person any
#  ammunition. Can any of you  legal types cite a PC number or at least
#  verify my friends "claim" (personally, I don't think that you can
#  do this..). If you are unclear on what I am saying...

#  My friend says that it is legal to carry his Ruger P89 with him at any
#  time on public property (barring buildings and places which do not allow
#  you to carry any type of a weapon, of course) so long as it is unloaded.
#  Reason for doing this -- Halloween is coming up... 

#  To avoid unnecessary clarifications, lets keep it to carrying unloaded
#  handguns (concealed or not), and assume that my friend will not brandish
#  the weapon or do anything like that.

	PC 12025 proscribes the carrying concealed on the person and
handgun, without regard to whether or not it is loaded (that issue is
seperate and dealt with elsewhere in the Penal Code), generally
speaking.

	PC 12026.1 is essentially a list of exceptions to 12025, all
of which require the handgun to be unloaded. Absent something specific
per the statute, generally it one is not allowed to carry a concealed
handgun on one's person if it is concealed. There is no restriction
against open carry, generally, in California, though discretion and
prudence might well override one's inclination to do so in many
instances.
-- 
     Peter Alan Kasler                            Fax: 707-939-8684
     Threat Management Institute                Voice: 707-939-0303
     800 West Napa Street                     TMI BBS: 707-935-1713
     Sonoma, CA  95476                     Internet: tmi@netcom.com
From: cmort@ncoast.org (Christopher Morton)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Reloading advice needed
Date: 10 Oct 92 13:39:47 GMT
Organization: North Coast Public Access *NIX, Cleveland, OH

As quoted from <1992Oct8.195845.2690@ee.gatech.edu> by mailrus!gatech!fisher.eedsp.gatech.edu!tucker@uunet.UU.NET (Jeff Tucker):

# How long does it take to offset the initial costs of reloading 
# equipment?  I'm talking about minimalist stuff, probably adequate
# for 100-200 rounds a month, max.  I'm not a real big shooter right
# now.  (But, if it weren't so expensive I might get that way.)

With my Dillon 550B I don't think it took much more than a couple of months,
and more like one.  At one point we were reloading so much 9mm that we were
loading it faster than we could afford to shoot it at indoor ranges.

	[MODERATOR: Took me about two months.  But as my wife points
	 out to me, the computation of "savings" may not be entirely 
	 since, of course, I've plowed any cash "saved" by handloading
	 back into ... more shooting.]

-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------  

"Well whose opinions did you THINK these were...?" 
------------------------------------------------------------------  
"It's 11:59pm, do you know where your congressman's checkbook is?"
------------------------------------------------------------------ 
Christopher Morton
{uunet|backbone}!ncoast.org!cmort                      cmort@ncoast.org
From: gt4458c@prism.gatech.edu (John Stephens Cronin)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Night vision equipment
Date: 14 Oct 92 21:04:15 GMT
Organization: Common Container Liberation Front


In article <1992Oct12.211411.6868@ncsu.edu> edhresko@eos.ncsu.edu (ERIC DAVID HRESKO) writes:
#In article <9210081325.AA12362@flubber.cs.UMD.EDU> kunz@avalon.physik.unizh.ch (kunz peter) writes:
##In article <1992Sep28.152435.8339@cbfsb.cb.att.com> osan@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (Mr. X) writes:
###	
###	Litton Military night vision goggles	$4999.95
###
###	Litton Night Vision weapon scope	$7299.95
###
##whoa! look in the back of the uscav catalog. most eastern bloc scopes
##are available for around $1k
#
#	Yeah, and the stuff is also that top quality combloc stuff!:)

The US Cavalry stuff seems to be infrared, and of a much lower quality
than US "Starlight" night vision equipment.

I have noticed that such stuff is also advertised regularly by at least 
two advertizers in Soldier of Fortune.  The stuff is all current issue
US equipment, some new, some reconditioned.  Prices range from about
$1800-$1900 for an AN/PVS-2 weapon scope, to about $3500 for an AN/PVS-4
weapon scope.  I think the night vision goggles were around $4800, but I
am not certain.  There were two types of night vision, monocular (poor
depth perception, but lower price) and binocular (what the military uses
to fly and drive at night with).  I don't know what Litton night vision
scope he is talking about here, but for that price, I would look at these
alternatives.  I don't have enough money to buy any of the stuff I mentioned
so I can't give you any references on the vendors.  However, when I was in
the US Army, I was afforded the opportunity to use both the AN/PVS-2 and
AN/PVS-4 quite extensively on guard duty.  They work well, as far as quality
I did not notice a great difference, but the PVS-4 is just over half the
size of the PVS-2, and is supposed to have more advanced electronics.  Neither
one can really be called small (both much larger than an ordinary rifle scope).
However, you can watch rabbits that are about 200+ yards away on the darkest
of German (cloudy) nights, with no problems, with either one.  Maximum
effective range is stated to be about 400 meters with either one, and that
certainly seems conservative, if anything.

John Cronin
From: gmk@falstaff.MAE.CWRU.EDU (Geoff Kotzar)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Ruger .41 Mag Blackhawk
Date: 8 Oct 92 00:53:59 GMT
Organization: /etc/organization

In article <3684@master.CNA.TEK.COM> richa@aspen.cna.tek.com (Rich Amber) writes:
#
#
#There is some rumor that Ruger is not filling any orders for
#.41 Mag single-action revolvers. I ordered one a month ago.
#The distributor says he hasn't been able to get one since June.
#And he says Ruger is not accepting back orders on 41s. So,
#I tried another distributor - same story.
#
#Ruger, are you out there? What the heck is this BS?
#What's the deal  with .41 Mags and why aren't you doing
#something about it? I would really like to have the best
#(yes, I  believe Ruger makes the best .41 SA), but if
#this is Ruger's idea of customer service, then all
#my future business (for ALL guns) is going elsewhere.
#
#Rich Amber
#NRA  Lifer, etc., etc.
#

The following may partailly answer your question. It is from a trade
nr\ews letter called "Firearms Business-For the Informed Firearms Marketer".

" In the single action revolver market, Ruger still has a virtual monopoly
despite reports indicating that production on that type of gun is limited
at the moment. When Ruger divided its manufacturing operations between Pres-
cott, Ariz. and Newport, N.H., the single actions went to New Hampshire.
Things haven't quite gotten on track as retooling related to the move has
been necessary. However, the comparatively small numbers that are being
produced are rapidly selling as the market appears to be gaining interest."

By the way, according to the same article Ruger is doing so well this year
that on top of the previously declared dividend of 30 cents for the first
quarter, they are offering an additional 40 cents to their shareholders.
Last year they made a pre-tax profit of $24 million on sales of $120 meg.
This year they are on pace to beat that.

According to the article, Ruger is a publicly held company. Anyone out
there know what just ONE share costs? It would be worth the price just
to tell that son of a bitch what I thought of his policies in person.

geoff kotzar
From: bobd@marune.acs.ohio-state.edu (Bob DeBula)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: What does Magnum mean?
Date: 12 Oct 92 16:48:35 GMT
Article-I.D.: magnus.1992Oct12.131234.4547
Organization: The Ohio State University

In article <9210081313.AA12341@flubber.cs.UMD.EDU> kunz@avalon.physik.unizh.ch (kunz peter) writes:
#
#i believe the .41 magnuym has a pistol cartridge counterpart: the .41
#action express. why AE? and what's the sroty behind the .50 original
#desert eagle going into .50 AE?
#

I believe the .41 AE isn't really a ballistic counterpart to the .41 Magnum
(although it does fairly well approximate the .41 Magnum "police load"
ammunition (lighter loads)). The AE standards for "Action Express" (I'm
fairly certain). The .41 AE came out prior to the .40 S&W and in
some ways was a niftier concept. Ballistically, it is a little hotter
than the .40 S&W (pretty much a toss up though). It has the
following (subject to interpretation) advantages:

1.) 9mm pistols (such as the Browning High Power) can be converted to
    .41 AE by just changing the barrel, magazine, and recoil spring.
    Essentially, it is possible to change back and forth quite
    readily. It uses the same case rim diameter (it has a rebated
    rim) as the 9mm Luger.  I suspect this helped kill it from the
    manufacturers viewpoint (i.e. "why buy a new Browning/S&W/
    Colt/SIG/Glock/Whatever .41 AE pistol when I can keep my 9mm
    and convert it?). It was not in the manufacturing industries
    interest to promote this cartridge. Rather, they could 
    come up with its' rough ballistic equivalent (.40 S&W) and
    be assured of selling new pistols (.40S&W has a larger 
    rim diameter than 9mm Luger). The .40 S&W also allowed manufacturers
    to retain the same frame, slide, etc. size pretty much (thus 
    cutting costs of retooling for manufacture).
    

2.) It could use existing .41 Magnum bullets as it is a true .41
    (.410") bullet diameter. Note that most .41 Magnum bullet designs
    do not lend themselves to automatics very well. This would all
    have changed had the round become popular. 




-- 
==========================================================================
              Disclaimer: These are my views, not the U's

        "If it's in the paper it must be true!" --- D. Doright
From: ems@michael.apple.com (E. Michael Smith)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Blood test ... UN-leaded ...
Date: 14 Oct 92 03:16:33 GMT
Organization: Apple Computer Inc.

Well, the results are in.  My blood test reported UN-leaded; but I've
got a virus ...  Looks like I was just unlucky enough to get a slow 
virus at the same time that I started playing with cast bullets and did
a batch of reloading (and my technique wasn't as bad as my paranoia
had got me to thinking ...)

Guess it's time to 'test the test' and see if any metals other than
lead register on the test strips as a positive ... or maybe I'll
do that after the virus is gone ...

I'm still interested in using lead free primers and finding a non-lead
bullet alloy, (AND I'll be washing my hands a bit more ...), but I'm
much more comfortable about things 'post test'.  

How does that go again?  Never confuse coincidence with causality or
corelation...

-- 

E. Michael Smith  ems@apple.COM

'Whatever you can do, or dream you can, begin it.  Boldness has
 genius, power and magic in it.'  -  Goethe

I am not responsible nor is anyone else.  Everything is disclaimed.
From: Thi_Huynh@univel.COM (Thi Huynh)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: more silence questions
Date: 9 Oct 92 23:39:42 GMT

cash@convex.com (Peter Cash) wrote:
#
# Thi_Huynh@univel.COM (Thi Huynh) wrote:
# 
# #Modern precision silencers do not "wipe" the bullet.  Hence the wipeless
# #term.
# 
# Do modern silencers reduce the muzzle velocity of the bullet?

A modern precision silencer does not touch the bullet at all.  Therefore
velovity is not affected.  Point-of-aim (not accuracy) will be affected 
though.

-tt

+-------------------+----------------------------------------------+
|  Thi Dang Huynh   |     "If life is a stage, I need better       |
| "Saigon Smuggler" |                 lighting."                   |
+-------------------+------------+---------------------------------+
| Univel Inc.                    | Thi_Huynh@univel.com (Internet) |
| 280 West 10200 South M/S S-23  | 801.568.8514         (Voice   ) |
| Sandy, UT 84070 U.S.A.         | 801.568.8699         (Fax     ) |
+--------------------------------+---------------------------------+
From: ljb@parkcity.dr.att.com (BLO54620-BonhamLJ(DR2194)240)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: 12g shotgun defense ammo
Date: 13 Oct 92 03:20:32 GMT
Article-I.D.: drutx.21397


In article <1992Oct12.114626.13999@email.tuwien.ac.at>, holger@vmars.tuwien.ac.at (Holger Reusch (Dipl. Gerhard + Joe)) writes:
|> I am in search for good defense ammo for shotguns.
|> 
|> The guns are 12 gauge, chambered for 2.75" or 3" shotshells, with a 
|> cylinder choke and a 18-25" barrel.
|> 
|> The requirements are as follows:
|> 
|> - Operative range < 10 yards (indoors)
|> - Penetration is not an issue (walls are very solid here)
|> - Optimum shot spread (That could merit another discussion, i think.)
|> - High stopping power against two-legged vermin.
|> 
|> What I'd lke to know is:  What shot size yields good spread over the
|> short distance, while preserving enough penetration to stop?  Which
|> shot sizes are sufficient for defense purposes?  What do you think
|> about 3" vs. 2.75" cartridges?  Any other points to keep in mind with
|> defense ammo for shotguns?
|> 
|> Thanks in advance for any insights.
|> 
|> -- 
|> | Holger Reusch                             |
|> | Technical University of Vienna, Austria <-+--- No kangaroos here,
|> | Dept. for Real-Time Systems               |    sorry!
|> | holger@vmars.tuwien.ac.at                 |


#From what I've read (Mas Ayoob, Marshall etc) and heard (Narc brother-in-law),
the most recommended load is No. 4 buck.  The No. 4 has a reasonably wide pattern
from a 18-22 in. barrel (I hope you are using a legal weapon here!) yet each of
the pellets is of sufficient size to have reasonable wounding potential.  Up here
in the high Rockies I keep the ol'Mossberg stoked with slugs for the very real
problem of mountain lions (had one in the drive way two nights ago) but when I
lived in town I loaded 3 rounds No. 4 followed by 2 rounds of slugs.  The logic
(?) behind this combo was that the buck should do the job and minimize collateral
damage while the slugs were there in case the No. 4 didn't quite get it done (Crack
is becoming a problem in Denver these days).  Long winded, but there's my opinion
for whats its worth.  Oh yeah, I just use the 2.75", they're plenty and the 3"
kick like a darn Elk.


Good luck,
Larry
From: lklawson@acs.harding.edu
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: CCW Requirements, Ohio
Date: 12 Oct 92 13:15:47 GMT
Organization: Harding University

In article <1992Oct8.150946.7006@icd.ab.com>, kdw@icd.ab.com (Kenneth D. Whitehead) writes:
#Can anybody give me the lowdown on what's required to get a CCW
#in Ohio?
#
#Thanks,
#
#Ken Whitehead

Well, it's already been pointed out that it's basicaly illeagal to carry
concealed in Ohio (prove to the jury and all that stuff).  HOWEVER, it is
leagal to OPEN CARY in Ohio.  In otherword, you can strap your shoot'n iron to
your hip and go for a quiet little stroll. (If you don't mind paranoid stares
from everyone and perhaps a cop stopping you just to find out why)  Doesn't
make much sense does it?

-Kirk
lklawson@acs.harding.edu

P.S.,

   I've been looking for some real ammo for my Makarov.  I recently heard from
a net-er that the 9x18 Police/Ultra is supposed to work in them except that he
hadn't seen any real ammo (JHP and such like) in the 9x18 Police/Ultra.  Does
anybody know if the mythical good ammo exist for this round (FMJ is all that
I've ever been able to get ahold of and I'm skeptical of it's stopping
ability).

Thanx,
-Kirk
From: ke4zv!gary@gatech.edu (Gary Coffman)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: NAvy Seals and Barett Sights
Date: 14 Oct 92 21:05:01 GMT
Article-I.D.: ke4zv.1992Oct14.145140.25477
Organization: Gannett Technologies Group

In article <9210100144.aa10817@s.s.ms.uky.edu> miles@ms.uky.edu (Stephen D. Grant) writes:
#
#Anyone remember the movie that came out a few years back about a couple
#of LA cops who flew this ultra-modern helicopter? I can't think of the name
#right now, but at the beginning of the movie there is a disclaimer that
#says "the weapons and technology depicted in this film are real and in use
#today" or something to that effect. Ay any rate, in the film there was a
#scene that showed the cops eaves-dropping on some "bad guys" inside a building.
#I also seem to remember them showing some sort of "sight" that also showed
#"images" of men as they moved behind a wall.
#Anyone else remember this movie, or any more details?
#One more thing I remember is that the helicopter also had a "quiet" mode.
#That is, the engine could be put into a "quiet mode".

Blue Thunder is the movie. Eavesdropping via laser interferometers is
old hat. It requires a stable platform, however. Compensation for 
the helo's motion is technically possible, but I don't think it's
commercially available. No doubt spooks have it.

Thermal imaging through walls is myth. Imaging through windows and
curtains, however, is possible assuming the glass isn't Thermopane(tm).

Quiet mode in a helo concerns mostly *blade* noise, not engine noise.
Many helos operate with the rotor blade tip velocity in the transsonic
region. The WHAP WHAP WHAP you hear is the blade tip on the advancing
side breaking the sound barrier. There are special tip designs that
prevent the shock wave from detaching that are much quieter. Engine
noise problems can be solved with traditional mufflers at the cost
of engine output.

The most glaring errors with this movie deal with flight speeds 
impossible to rotorcraft and a seemingly endless supply of ammo
for the myriad weapons carried. The cowboy movie sixgun syndrome.
Endless magazine capacity seems to be standard equipment in
Hollywierd.

Gary
From: kunz@avalon.physik.unizh.ch (kunz peter)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Night vision equipment
Date: 8 Oct 92 17:42:42 GMT
Article-I.D.: flubber.9210081325.AA12362
Organization: Informatik Club Uni Zurich

In article <1992Sep28.152435.8339@cbfsb.cb.att.com> osan@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (Mr. X) writes:
#	
#	Litton Military night vision goggles	$4999.95
#
#	Litton Night Vision weapon scope	$7299.95
#
#	And a bunch of other really expensive toys.
#
whoa! look in the back of the uscav catalog. most eastern bloc scopes
are available for around $1k


cu
-pete


-- 
Peter J. Kunz		Home:		(+41) 061 721 75 56 (Weekends)
P.O. Box 315		Business:	(+41) 01  261 35 74 (Weekdays)
4106 Therwil		Fax:		(+41) 061 324 71 88
Switzerland		E-Mail:		pkunz@amiga.physik.unizh.ch
From: canders%lacerta.unm.edu@lynx.unm.edu (Cliff Anderson CIRT)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: .45 Win. Mag. pistols?
Date: 8 Oct 92 21:55:54 GMT
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque

In article <1992Oct7.175053.8171@cbfsb.cb.att.com>, osan@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (Mr. X) writes:
# Hi Folks,
# 
# Anyone know of any pistols chambered for the 45 Winchester Magnum?  Any
# semi autos?  Anyone have any experience with this round?  The figures look
# very similar to those of the .44 Magnum.  
# 
# Just wondering if there are any decent toys chambered for this and whether or
# not they're worth considering.  Thanks in advance.
# 
# 	-Andy V.
# 

Andy, 

There is a gun made by WILDEY that is semi-auto and shoots this cartridge.
If I'm not mistaken, AMT makes a semi-auto in this round too.  I've seen 
both of these guns in various gun magazines and in the local gun shops. They
are big in comparison to other semi-auto handguns and are a little more 
expensive.

GOOD LUCK!
From: burge@qdeck.com (Bill Burge)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: 9mm: Which *not* to buy?
Date: 7 Oct 92 12:59:55 GMT
Organization: Quarterdeck Office Systems, Santa Monica CA

In article <m0madj0-00017OC@ncoast.org> cmort@ncoast.org (Christopher Morton) writes:
#As quoted from <9209302156.AA09885@outmail.microsoft.com> by alane@microsoft.com (Alan Ezekiel):
#
## If you have small hands, stay away from Glocks.
#
#I have relatively small hands and find the Glock 17 and 22 very comfortable.
#The Glock 20 and 21 are a bit big, but still MUCH better than the S&W 45 or 10
#series guns.
#
#

Same here.  Fingers like toes.  Love my 17.

Bill	burge@qdeck.com
From: hmueller@orca.tamu.edu (Hal Mueller)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: American Rifleman
Date: 8 Oct 92 17:41:50 GMT
Organization: Dept. of Wildlife and Fisheries Sciences, Texas A&M University

Since I haven't seen it mentioned yet, allow me to congratulate
Clayton Cramer on a nice, tight write-up on the inequitable penalties
of California's weapons laws in this month's "American Rifleman".


-- 
Hal Mueller		  hmueller@orca.tamu.edu    
  "A well educated Electorate, being necessary to the security of a free State,
   the right of the People to keep and read Books, shall not be infringed."
   [Obviously, the above statement only supports state-run law libraries.]
From: barry@uts.amdahl.com (Barry Needham)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: 12g shotgun defense ammo
Date: 13 Oct 92 03:20:39 GMT
Article-I.D.: amdahl.504S03VEa9g100
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA


holger@vmars.tuwien.ac.at (Holger Reusch (Dipl. Gerhard + Joe)) writes:

#I am in search for good defense ammo for shotguns.

#The guns are 12 gauge, chambered for 2.75" or 3" shotshells, with a 
#cylinder choke and a 18-25" barrel.

#The requirements are as follows:

#- Operative range < 10 yards (indoors)
#- Penetration is not an issue (walls are very solid here)
#- Optimum shot spread (That could merit another discussion, i think.)
#- High stopping power against two-legged vermin.

#What I'd lke to know is:  What shot size yields good spread over the
#short distance, while preserving enough penetration to stop?  Which
#shot sizes are sufficient for defense purposes?  What do you think
#about 3" vs. 2.75" cartridges?  Any other points to keep in mind with
#defense ammo for shotguns?

#-- 
#| Holger Reusch                             |
#| Technical University of Vienna, Austria <-+--- No kangaroos here,

I would recommend #1 Buck and up, with a preference toward copper plated shot.
Some of the composite rounds might also be of interest, 000 Buck buffered with
#4 Buck.  The 2.75 inch cartridges with heavy loads are adequate, you might
look at the 2 inch loads to increase your magazine capacity  if your action
will digest them.  I would also keep a slug round or two handy in a butt cuff
or side saddle for those special occasions.

If you want to specialize in short ranges you should look into some of the
horizontal "duck bill" shot spreaders.  You will not get much spread from a
cylinder choke at 10 yards.

Regards,
  Barry.

-- 
Barry Needham          barry@uts.amdahl.com          USA (408) 992-2527
From: edhresko@eos.ncsu.edu (ERIC DAVID HRESKO)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: more silencer questions
Date: 12 Oct 92 22:23:34 GMT
Organization: North Carolina State University, Project Eos

In article <1992Oct6.203858.28428@news.eng.convex.com> cash@convex.com (Peter Cash) writes:
#In article <9210061636.AA01386@nuc.Utah.univel.COM> Thi_Huynh@univel.COM (Thi Huynh) writes:
#
##Modern precision silencers do not "wipe" the bullet.  Hence the wipeless
##term.
#
#Do modern silencers reduce the muzzle velocity of the bullet?


	If the barrel in the silencer is vented, it draws gas out off the barrel, thereby reducing the velocity to subsonic velocities...

-- 


Eric

******************************************************************************
Eric Hresko		* Mail:  edhresko@eos.ncsu.edu                       * 
Kanki House of Steaks   * Voice: (why would you want to call?) 1-919-821-5168*
Dishwasher 2nd Class    * HK Rules!!! (But a FAL will do in a pinch)         *
DISCLAIMER:  I don't wear sandals, eat granola, or tiptoe thru the Tulips    *
******************************************************************************