From: mike@gordian.com (Michael A. Thomas)
Subject: Re: The past is done, what now?
Organization: Gordian; Costa Mesa, CA
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 07:05:27 GMT

In article <1992Oct15.025733.21444@wam.umd.edu>, lovegod@wam.umd.edu (Donald Andrew Agarrat) writes:
> In article <1992Oct14.173253.14635@gordian.com> mike@gordian.com (Michael A.  
> Thomas) writes:
> }   My take on this post was more along the lines of "When can
> } we stop with the blame game, and get along onto the healing
> } game".
> 
> First of all, this is no "game".  To answer the question, we can "play the  
> healing game" by finally freeing the slaves ...

  When blame is the only thing that is desired, I would characterize
that as a "game". I'm not accusing you of that, as I honestly don't
know. 
  What do you mean by finally freeing the slaves (this is not a rhetorical
question)?

> } To the point that one side of a dispute only expects
> } abject and utter (and continuous) apology for past injustice
> } is the point where nothing productive is being done to correct
> } the situation.

  [plz keep the lines under 70, Donald]

> Okay, whose fault is that?  If I'm telling you that something is wrong and all  
> you say is "I'm sorry" and don't do anything to correct your mistake, am I then  
> supposed to tell myself, "Well, he did apologize, even though he isn't doing  
> anything to solve the problem he supposedly is apologizing for?"  Frankly, I  
> don't want your apology.  

  Well, I must say the apologies aren't really worth much. Obviously
the action of stopping the legal aspect are a tremendous first step.
Not that that's any sort of magnanimous jesture: they were always
your rights, and nobody had any right to take them away in the first
place. The social issues are far more troublesome. Clearly racism and
bigotry are wide spread. The question is not whether the bigots are
immoral in their beliefs, the question is how to get them to
change their minds, to behave in a civil manner toward their fellow
human beings. I wish I knew the answer to this, as it has obvious
applications toward homophobia as well. The best that I can come
up with is educating people. That diversity is a Good Thing. This
of course takes time, and has its ups and downs. Do you have a
better suggestion? 

> Do something now.

  What?
 
> } Indeed, IMHO, this is not even realistic since 
> } people will not continue apologizing forever. At some point
> } the conclusion is drawn that the person/group is just whining for
> } the sake of whining, not asking for a fair shake in future dealings.
> 
> You are standing on such shaky ground.  

  Hey, I'm in California :-)

> You could probably say this if on the  
> whole my people were sitting in glass penthouse offices somewhere with  
> Dialogica furniture saying, "You know, those White people really did us a  
> disservice with slavery ..."  We are HARDLY bestowed that luxury ... The luxury  
> of equality ...

  Look, my beef is not with present day wrongs -- with living people.
It's just that it gets tiring listening to the "European Male
is the Root of All Evil" chant. This is what I was responding
about Jess's post. Also, the entire concept of class -- of lumping all
people together regardless of specifics -- is intellectual laziness.
It is a broad brushed smear which serves only to instill unearned
guilt. Honestly, I don't even know if you were even using this sort
of tactic. Jess, however, will probably not respond as it is his
style to make statements like these and not defend them.
  As for present day wrongs, these are what we *can* change. They
are within the realm of possibilities. Beating up on somebodies
heritage, implying that it's something pathological (and probably
genetic) doesn't do a damn bit of good. The task is to scream, and
scream loadly at injustice *today*. That it's not OK. That it still
is happening. That this is not the time to pat ourselves on the back.

> }   Does this say that we should in any way excuse past injustice?
> } Of course not. But, like it or not, the past is the past. The
> } only hope that we have in the present is to learn something from
> } it by not repeating its mistakes.
> 
> No, you're repeating the same mistakes.  You actually are perpertuating the  
> same OLD mistakes that have never died.  Which is worse?

  Which mistakes are those, Donald? 

> What's happening in the Middle East is a completely different situation  
> altogether.  You need to stay focused if you want to convincingly prove your  
> point ...

  My point was about releasing the past. The Middle East is rife with
age old conflicts where A stabbed B who killed C ad nauseum. There
can be no peace their until people stop demanding retribution for
every injustice past and present. This is somewhat pertinate to the 
Evil European Syndrome, don't you think?
  Where this analogy falls down, for certain, is the power dynamic.
Clearly slavery in America was a rather one sided deal, which cannot
be said of the Mid East. 

> 
> }   In the case of the Holocaust, how long should Jews go on hating 
> } Germans? Forever? Certainly they should hate the Nazi's in perpetuity,
> } but what about the current crop? Shouldn't it depend far more on
> } their current deeds rather than their ancestors?
> 
> That depends.  Have the descendants merely perpetrated the deeds of their  
> ancestors?

  If the descendants are doing the same old shit, then clearly they
don't deserve the time of day. If they are trying to clean up their
act (maybe not to the extent you would like, though) what would you 
say?

> You mean "they" as in "your" ancestors ... 

  Yes, my ancestors. (In fact, my ancestors *were* in Europe at the
time; not that they were in any sort of position though, other than at
the receiving end of a horse's ass :-)

> 
> }   But what do we do today? The past is gone, bar the lesson of 
> } "never again". There is nothing that can be done to change history.
> } Our only option is making the present and future better, and trying
> } to live with what the past has bestowed us.
> 
> I don't believe anyone can change history.  The fact is Whites owe Blacks so  
> much that they can NEVER repay them.  NEVER!  And to sit here and listen to you  
> try to justify your complacency in this subject turns my stomach!

  As is the nature of injustice, Donald. Taking another persons life
after they murder a loved one does not resurrect the loved one. The
only thing we can do is try to make the future better, and somehow
try to get over the anger and despair (for your own sanity, not
anybody elses).
  I think you mislabel reality with complacency, but I don't begrudge
you to think that.
-- 

		Michael Thomas	(mike@gordian.com)
	"I don't think Bambi Eyes will get you that flame thrower..."  
		-- Hobbes to Calvin
		USnail: 20361 Irvine Ave Santa Ana Heights, Ca,	92707-5637
		PaBell: (714) 850-0205 (714) 850-0533 (fax)