HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: "Michael Smith" <p00004@psilink.com>
Subject: Re: Subsidies for Roads and Cars in the USA
Organization: Performance Systems Int'l
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 16:05:15 GMT
X-Mailer: PSILink (3.2)

>DATE:   5 Oct 92 19:34:23 GMT
>FROM:   Donald Bowen <donb@crash.cts.com>
[material deleted]
>...  The well developed interstate and local highway system is what
>makes it possible for some of us to live in an apartment, ride bycicles to
>work and pretend that we get no benefit from the roads.

Actually, I was under the impression that apartments (and bicycles!) 
antedate cars, trucks, and the interstate highway system. There were 
apartments in first-century Rome. No bicycles, of course, although a 
famous question of Cicero's might give rise to misunderstanding 
("Quousque tandem, O Catalina, abutere patientia nostra?"). 

[material deleted]

>The problem is not the highways but the people that use them.  

Perhaps it's selfishly person-centric of me, but being, myself, a person 
rather than a highway, I am inclined to believe that transportation 
should be designed around people and what they are really like, not the 
other way around. (Members of the Highway Liberation Front will no doubt 
flame me vigorously for this grotesque example of organic chauvinism.)

--Michael Smith
From: yodaiken@chelm.cs.umass.edu (victor yodaiken)
Newsgroups: sci.environment
Subject: Re: . . . Radioactive Sand Proves Nuclear Reprocessing Unlawful
Date: 26 Sep 92 12:53:36 GMT
Organization: University of Massachusetts, Amherst

In article <1992Sep24.211703.7138@oracle.us.oracle.com> mfriedma@uucp (Michael Friedman) writes:
>
>>You don't know the units of measurement. 
>
>Nope.  Don't have them memorized.  Do you?
>
>>You don't know the numbers.
>
>Nope.  don't have them memorized.  I can look them up.  Are you
>claiming you have them memorized?
>
>>You are completely ignorant about the, well documented, history
>>of Windscale/Sellafield. 
>
>Which is irrelevant to this particular argument.
>
>>Your argumentation is based entirely on an
>>uninformed idea of what is "reasonable".
>
>Are you more informed?  If so, please inform me.  How is it reasonable
>that a nuclear installation will deliberatedly release half as much
>radiation each year as the Chernobyl disaster did?

It's no more reasonable than the possibility that an installation will
store nuclear waste in unlined trenches, cover up the results of a
Chernobyl style graphite reactor fire, build a pipline into the
sea to pour in "low activity" wastes , vent Cesium directly into
the atmosphere, and put 1/2 million curies of Pu241 into the Irish Sea.
For evidence of all this, look at New York Newsday 20/may/1986
or read through New Scientist and  Nature.

-- 


yodaiken@chelm.cs.umass.edu

Newsgroups: sci.environment
From: jmc@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (John McCarthy)
Subject: Re: --SMUD Combines Solar, Efficiency
Reply-To: jmc@cs.Stanford.EDU
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University
	<JMC.92Sep29150109@SAIL.Stanford.EDU> <54139@dime.cs.umass.edu>
Date: 29 Sep 92 22:07:09

The petition drive was against a report by the National
Research Council that gave a "Core Research Agenda" for
computer science consisting entirely of applications.  It
turns out that this wasn't what the committee that wrote
the report intended to say, but it is what they did say.
--
John McCarthy, Computer Science Department, Stanford, CA 94305
*
He who refuses to do arithmetic is doomed to talk nonsense.

Newsgroups: sci.environment
From: <KASV-EM@finou.oulu.fi>
Subject: Re: Waste containment (was: Re: NEWS: Radioactive Sand Proves ...)
Organization: University of Oulu, Finland
 <1992Sep23.164319.20493@nsisrv.gsfc.nasa.gov>
 <1992Sep24.042642.16949@ringer.cs.utsa.edu> <1992Oct1.014931.1321@sugra.uucp>
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 08:18:55 GMT

In article <1992Oct1.014931.1321@sugra.uucp>, ken@sugra.uucp (Kenneth Ng) says:
>
>In article <1992Sep24.042642.16949@ringer.cs.utsa.edu:
>sbooth@lonestar.utsa.edu
>(Simon E. Booth) writes:
>:What is this "natural reactor" in Africa??  I haven't been reading this
>:groups for very long.
>
>Scientific American had an article on it in the 1970s.  Unfortunately I do
>not have the reference handy.
>
>--
>Kenneth Ng

See also:  Nature , 12 December 1991 pp. 472-475

Erkki Maenpaa
>Apple and AT&T lawsuits: Just say NO!
Newsgroups: sci.environment
From: rowland@zorba7.larc.nasa.gov (Michael W. Rowland)
Subject: Re: Env. Satellites Shutdown in Dec. 1992
Keywords: satellites, budget cuts
Reply-To: rowland@zorba7.larc.nasa.gov (Michael W. Rowland)
Organization: NASA Langley Research Center, Hampton, VA 23681  USA
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 21:06:59 GMT

In article <1992Oct6.185959.23158@news.acns.nwu.edu>, len@schur.math.nwu.edu 
(Len Evens) writes:
> (Michael W. Rowland) writes:
> >We at Langley Research Center received news on Thursday, October 2,
> >1992 that NASA intends to shutdown the following satellites in
> >December to save about $15M:
> >
> >     NUMBUS-7
> >
> >     ERBS
> >
> >     NOAA-9
> >
> >     NOAA-10
> >
> >Mike Rowland, Aerosol Research Branch, MS 475
> >NASA Langley Research Center, Hampton VA 23681
> >internet: rowland@zorba7.larc.nasa.gov
> 
> 
> I thought the Bush administration argued that we have to collect
> more data about global warming.   How is supposed to happen if
> measurements of this kind are not financed?
> 
> Leonard Evens      len@math.nwu.edu      708-491-5537
> Dept. of Mathematics, Northwestern Univ., Evanston, IL 60208

If you recall, the UARS (Upper Atmosphere Research Satellite)
was launched only about a year ago...They (NASA) are talking
about turning it off after only 18-months of operation!

Nimbus-7 has bee alive for about 12-years
ERBS has been alive for eight years
and NOAA-9 and 10 have been around for awhile too!

So much for our "Environmental President!"

Mike

Mike Rowland, Aerosol Research Branch, MS 475
NASA Langley Research Center, Hampton VA 23681
internet: rowland@zorba7.larc.nasa.gov
From: louis@aupair.cs.athabascau.ca (Louis Schmittroth)
Newsgroups: sci.environment
Subject: Re: Subsidies for Roads and Cars in the USA
Date: 7 Oct 92 01:44:21 GMT



steinly@topaz.ucsc.edu (Steinn Sigurdsson) writes:

>In article <1992Oct5.222329.15554@beaver.cs.washington.edu> pauld@cs.washington.edu (Paul Barton-Davis) writes:


#   In article <donb.718313663@crash# donb@crash.cts.com (Donald Bowen) writes:
#   #In <1992Sep30.120521.16948@news.acns.nwu.edu# len@schur.math.nwu.edu (Len Evens) writes:
#   #	Fresh produce delivered by truck is speeded to your local salad
#   #bar over those roads you do not want to pay for.

#   Absolutely correct. If I wanted to subsidize long-distance farming,
#   I'd rather find a better way. As is, I *deliberately* avoid buying
#   such food, and encourage others to do the same. Here in the PNW, I can
#   grow or buy salad crops locally all year around. I humbly suggest that
#   those living in regions where this is not so easy either alter their
#   diets and/or seek methods of year-round farming that will work for the
#   foods they'd like to eat.

#Might I humbly suggest that Alaskans, many Canadians and others
#in climates inimical to farming for more than a fraction of the
#year move ASAP to PNW or California that they may enjoy the benefits
#of locally grown fresh produce year round - especially if they have
#problems with diets high in animal fats, salt or nitroamines - unless
#you're willing to bet on significant warming in the immediate future
#;-)

Here in Northern Alberta we qualify for "a fraction of the year" when
we can harvest fresh produce from the garden, but we can store cabbage
for winter salad, and we can can.  If I use a bit of low tech gardening
assistance such as a cold frame in the fall and spring, and the use of
frost hardy varieties I can extend the fresh vegetable season for
several months.  I can also store carrots, beets, potatoes, and enjoy
then all year long, along with winter squash, dried onions, and the
whole range of frozen veggies.  I agree with the original poster that I
can survive very well, and indeed have a great diet without a single
truck from California.
--
Louis Schmittroth louis@cs.athabascau.ca
========================================
Not everything that counts can be counted.  Not everything that can be
counted counts.   - Charles Garfield
Xref: sparky sci.environment:11742 talk.environment:4084 talk.politics.misc:49791
From: pauld@cs.washington.edu (Paul Barton-Davis)
Newsgroups: sci.environment,talk.environment,talk.politics.misc
Subject: Re: Subsidies for Roads and Cars in the USA
Date: 6 Oct 92 18:59:40 GMT
Article-I.D.: beaver.1992Oct6.185940.27881
Organization: Computer Science & Engineering, U. of Washington, Seattle

In article <JMC.92Oct5194918@SAIL.Stanford.EDU> 
My Favorite Professor of Technological Optimism (jmc@cs.Stanford.EDU) writes:
>In article <1992Oct5.222329.15554@beaver.cs.washington.edu> pauld@cs.washington.edu (Paul Barton-Davis) writes:
>   I'd rather go after the "average" american who, by some accounts, will
>   not walk more than 1/4 mile to go anywhere, high-heels or not, and who
>   thinks that tomatoes year round is a normal way of life.
>
>Tomatoes year around became a normal way of a life a couple centuries
>after having tomatoes at all became normal.  

Do you know about the Price dental study, John ? He was the society
dentist of the '20s who travelled around the world looking at dental
(and to some extent, general) health. He found many groups of people
eating extremely different diets all with apparently "perfect" dental
health. The only common element was that their diets were all based
entirely on foodstuffs that could be grown within the bioregion they
lived in.

But more concisely, perhaps you don't appreciate the difference
between using technology to ship tomatoes from California to Maine,
and using knowledge to develop varieties of tomatoes that grow for 4
months in Maine.
					      
					      Why shouldn't people
>drive whenever they feel like it?  I claim doing so is sustainable
>and extendable to the whole world.  Suppose I am right.  Would it
>still be wrong to drive a quarter mile?

Now you're bothering to claim that sustainability is worth paying even
lip-service to ? How kind. And yes, if it was sustainable, and
extendable to arbitrary population densities across the entire planet
(and beyond, if appropriate), then sure, driving a quarter mile would
be just fine.

-- paul
-- 
There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a
little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider
price only are this man's lawful prey.
						John Raskin
From: andrewt@watson.ibm.com (Andrew Taylor)
Subject: Missing CO2 sink found?
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1992 16:36:52 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

The latest New Scientist suggests three articles in Nature may allow
the global carbon budget to be balanced.

Keeling and Shertz at NCAR have been measuring atmospheric oxygen content.
The decline in oxygen content they have measured matches that consumed by
burning fossil fuels. This indicates that globally, biomass currently makes
no net contribution to the carbon flow. 

The existence of a ~1mm ocean surface layer up to 0.3C cooler has been known
for 20 years.  Robertson and Wilson at Plymouth Marine Laboratory suggest
taking this layer into account will increase estimated global ocean uptake
of carbon (as CO2) by 0.7 gigatonnes.

Falkowski and Wilson from Brookhaven have examined records of phytoplankton
activity in the Northern Pacific since 1900. They conclude that there are
no changes signifcant enough to affect atmospheric CO2 levels.

Together these three articles would seem (from the New Scientist piece)
to account for the missing CO2 sink. Perhaps someone more knowledgable
could review the actual articles (Nature vol 358 p723, p738, p741)

Andrew Taylor
Newsgroups: sci.environment,talk.environment
From: andrewt@watson.ibm.com (Andrew Taylor)
Subject: captive study of endangered species (was Re: Beluga Whales
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1992 18:09:49 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

In article <Bv80DF.Hx5@news.cso.uiuc.edu> kjt34420@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Kristin J. Thommes) writes:
>Look at what captive breeding has done for the peregrine falcon, and what
>work is being done to try and save the florida panther.  If they were not
>captured and observed, we would not have a clue about why they were
>endangered and we also could not take steps to save them.

This is nonsense, captive study can be very useful but the vital information
for endangered species can only be discovered through field study.

Consider the California Condor. The important factors in its decline were:
shooting, poisoned Coyote baits, pesticides, ingestion of lead from carcasses,
food scarcity, habitat destruction and general disturbance. Could you discover
these factors or assess their relative importance by captive observation?

The removal of these endangering factors is more important than
captive breeding.  Tom Cade's captive breeding program did greatly speed the
return of the Peregrine to the NE US but the vital step was the banning of DDT.

The greatest obstacle in a captive recovery program is not the actual breeding
the animal but its release. Perhaps as much as 80% of captive breeding
programs fail at the release stage.  Behavioural information from field study
is vital to improving the success of the release phase.

By the way neither the Peregrine Falcon nor Florida Panther are, properly
speaking, endangered species. In both cases, the species was secure but
subspecies are/were (critically) endangered. Last I heard Beluga Whales
were not endangered.

Andrew Taylor
Newsgroups: sci.environment
From: jgacker@news.gsfc.nasa.gov (James G. Acker)
Subject: Re: Anti-Gore article
Organization: Goddard Space Flight Center
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 13:03:32 GMT

Josh Rovero (rovero@oc.nps.navy.mil) wrote:
: No, the TRUE cowards are the ones that LIE to their draft boards and college
: ROTC units.

	Do you mean to tell me that if you felt your intellectual abilities 
and gifts, your scientific talents, your artistic capabilities were at such
a level that you could contribute substantially to the advancement and 
improvement of humankind that you'd still just go out and accept the 
odds of getting your brains blown out or your leg blown off?  Vietnam was
not a clear-cut case of good vs. evil (aka Hitler).  I don't know how 
I would have acted then... but I feel now that I would have taken steps to
avoid active service in that war.  So that what I contributed to my 
country would be MORE than a puddle of blood and intestines in a rice paddy.

	Jim Acker
	jgacker@neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov
From: jym@mica.berkeley.edu (Jym Dyer)
Newsgroups: sci.environment
Subject: Re: HFC availability
Date: 1 Oct 92 16:20:14
Organization: The Naughty Peahen Party Line
Distribution: na
	<19qvqeINN79u@agate.berkeley.edu>
	<1992Sep25.184751.22780@nsisrv.gsfc.nasa.gov>
NNTP-Posting-Host: remarque.berkeley.edu
In-reply-to: dsc@gemini.tmc.edu's message of Fri, 25 Sep 1992 18:47:51 GMT

>> Technically, HFCs *are* CFCs . . .
> No.  You are confusing HCFCs with HFCs.

=o= Oops.  You're right, I screwed up there.
    <_Jym_>
__
Looking back, I should have pursued philosophy and history and
 economics and things of that sort in college more, but I didn't.
                -- Vice President Dan Quayle.
From: oppedahl@panix.com (Carl Oppedahl)
Newsgroups: sci.environment
Subject: Upcoming Environmental Education Conference
Keywords: education conference wisconsin
Date: 6 Oct 92 03:36:05 GMT
Distribution: ny, mn, wi
Organization: PANIX Public Access Unix & Internet, NYC

My sister, who does not have Usenet access, asked that I post this for her.

 
Upcoming Environmental Education Conference
 
hosted by the Wisconsin Association for Environmental Education
 
October 29-31
 
Near Merrimac, Wisconsin
 
Choose from over 32 sessions, 16 field trips, or five workshops designed
for classroom teachers, nature center professionals, and others.
 
To encourage increased awareness and responsibility by understanding the
environment.
 
Keynote address by Ben Logan.
 
Music by Ken Lonnquist.
 
For more information call Mata Riegel 715-824-2428.
 
Posted by Carl Oppedahl AA2KW, oppedahl@panix.com.
From: carl@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU (Carl J Lydick)
Newsgroups: sci.environment
Subject: Re: --SMUD Combines Solar, Efficiency
Date: 26 Sep 1992 23:25:15 GMT
Organization: HST Wide Field/Planetary Camera
Reply-To: carl@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol1.gps.caltech.edu

In article <1466601764@igc.apc.org>, Tom Gray <tgray@igc.apc.org> writes:
=SMUD's plans, the article said, include:
=
=o    Seeking to replace 59,000 electric water heaters in its
=     service territory with solar models.  The utility is
=     developing a consumer's guide to help homeowners select a
=     system and will also provide a list of qualified contractors. 
=     In addition, SMUD will provide rebates of $400 to $1,400 and
=     low-interest loans to some purchasers of solar systems, which
=     cost between $2,500 and $3,000.
=
=o    Supplying technical assistance and financial incentives to
=     housing developers who incorporate solar features in new
=     homes.  Among technical information items, to be developed in
=     cooperation with the National Renewable Energy Laboratory
=     (NREL), will be workshops and a handbook for builders. 
=     Demonstration homes are also planned.

Gee.  And here we've had people telling us in this newsgroup that solar energy
is cost-competitive.  I guess SMUD hasn't heard these claims.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carl J Lydick | INTERnet: CARL@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU | NSI/HEPnet: SOL1::CARL

Disclaimer:  Hey, I understand VAXen and VMS.  That's what I get paid for.  My
understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level (or below).  So
unless what I'm saying is directly related to VAX/VMS, don't hold me or my
organization responsible for it.  If it IS related to VAX/VMS, you can try to
hold me responsible for it, but my organization had nothing to do with it.
From: curry@hplred.HP.COM (Bo Curry)
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1992 19:37:47 GMT
Subject: Re: Re: . . . Radioactive Sand Proves Nuclear Reprocessing Unlawful
Organization: Hewlett Packard Labs, Palo Alto CA
Newsgroups: sci.environment

 |> |mfriedma@uucp (Michael Friedman):
 |> |So what?  The important question is whether enough is washing up on
 |> |beaches to hurt people.  So far we have received absolutely no
 |> |evidence that this is the case.
 |
 |>(BC)That is *an* important question, but it isn't the only important question
 |>Are actinides or fission products concentrating in shellfish or marine
 |>plants? How low on the food chain? What are the economic consequences
 |>to fisheries? 
 |
 |Well, if enough fish are dropping dead to have an economic effect then
 |people will be dropping dead too, so it's more interesting to see if
 |levels in marine life are getting high enough to be dangerous.  That's
 |a reasonable worry, especially considering the mercury poisoning
 |business they had in Japan.
 |

Concentration of pollutants in marine biota can have serious consequences
long before people start dying from it. By the time people are "dropping
dead", many ocean ecosystems would probably be irreversably damaged.

 |In fact, Bo, I'll even agree that it is worth while for the government
 |to spend money checking this out.  If nothing else, we can be sure
 |that there will be more accidents and that more radioactive waste will
 |be entering the biosphere, so we should learn about this kind of stuff.
 |

I don't know much about Windscale, but the US government has already
spent a fair amount of money checking out the environmental fate of releases
from our analogous local installations at Hanford and Savannah River. Some
of that money actually trickled down to me, in a former life. It is
not uncommon for plants to concentrate 90-Sr (for example) by factors
of 10^4 higher than the soils they grow in. Shellfish also efficiently
concentrate Sr, which is chemically very similar to Ca. There are many
surprises in tracking the fate of fission products, and intuition is
decidedly unreliable. Some varieties of western grasses concentrate actinides
(Th, U, Pu, Am, Cu) by factors of ~1000, while other closely related species
don't seem to take them up at all.

Bo Curry

"It often happens in science that while data are scarce, interpretation
seems easy, but as the number of data grows, consistent argument becomes
more and more difficult."  Hitoshi Takeuchi
From: mfriedma@uucp (Michael Friedman)
Newsgroups: sci.environment
Subject: Re: Re: . . . Radioactive Sand Proves Nuclear Reprocessing Unlawful
Date: 30 Sep 92 16:57:52 GMT
Organization: Oracle Corporation
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by an unauthenticated user
              at Oracle Corporation.  The opinions expressed are those
              of the user and not necessarily those of Oracle.

In article <790001@hplred.HP.COM> curry@hplred.HP.COM (Bo Curry) writes:

> |yodaiken@chelm.cs.umass.edu (victor yodaiken) writes:
> |>That's the point of the GP press release: it's washing up on the
> |>beaches.

> |mfriedma@uucp (Michael Friedman):
> |So what?  The important questio is whether enough is washing up on
> |beaches to hurt people.  So far we have received absolutely no
> |evidence that this is the case.

>That is *an* important question, but it isn't the only important question.
>Are actinides or fission products concentrating in shellfish or marine
>plants? How low on the food chain? What are the economic consequences
>to fisheries? 

Well, if enough fish are dropping dead to have an economic effect then
people will be dropping dead too, so it's more interesting to see if
levels in marine life are getting high enough to be dangerous.  That's
a reasonable worry, especially considering the mercury poisoning
business they had in Japan.

You see, Victor, this is the kind of thing that intelligent
environmentalists look for.  GP is just screaming about "THE EVIL
PLUTONIUM".  

In fact, Bo, I'll even agree that it is worth while for the government
to spend money checking this out.  If nothing else, we can be sure
that there will be more accidents and that more radioactive waste will
be entering the biosphere, so we should learn about this kind of stuff.

>To tourism?

Probably the simplest way to protect tourism would be for the people
running Sellafield to sue GreenPeace for libel and bankrupt them.
-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am not an official Oracle spokesman.  I speak for myself and no one else.
From: lsd@ruc.dk (Lauge Stendahl Johansen)
Newsgroups: sci.environment
Subject: CO2 pollution and oceans
Date: 5 Oct 92 19:33:32 GMT
Organization: Roskilde Universitetscenter, Danmark

Please help me, I'm doing a report on CO2, and witch effect
the oceans absorption of CO2 have. But I have a problem about
finding relevant material.
I you have anything about the subject.
Please send it to me.

Lauge Johansen
Roskilde University, Denmark
E-mail: lsd@gorm.ruc.dk 
Newsgroups: sci.environment
From: jmc@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (John McCarthy)
Subject: Re: --UCS Offers New Energy Policies
Reply-To: jmc@cs.Stanford.EDU
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University
Date: 6 Oct 92 20:51:44

I don't see that UCS has rethought any of its policies.
--
John McCarthy, Computer Science Department, Stanford, CA 94305
*
He who refuses to do arithmetic is doomed to talk nonsense.