HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: raghavan@wk21.nas.nasa.gov (Venkatraman Raghavan)
Subject: Marriages (was Re: Desi friends)
	    <MSANGHVI.92Jul28185204@cs.ulowell.edu> 
	    <1992Jul30.204520.17510@midway.uchicago.edu>
Organization: NAS
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 92 16:44:47 GMT

moh2@midway.uchicago.edu writes:

>In article <MSANGHVI.92Jul28185204@cs.ulowell.edu> msanghvi@cs.ulowell.edu writes:
>
>>yes i agree with Bharathi (spelled it correctly didn't i?? :) ). If the man and
>>the woman involved agree then there is nothing wrong with arranged marriages. 
>>The only situation i can think of in which i would be opposed to the idea of an
>>arranged marriage would be one in which either party was forced into it by the
>>respective family.

[...]

>To be more specific, a close friend of mine has been living in the US
>for over 8 years now.  She still wants to marry an Indian, but mainly
>because she doesn't want to upset her family.  Okay, I can deal with
>that, there are a lot of Indians for her to choose from, and I'm sure
>she could be happy with one of them.
>
>However, she is terrified by the prospect of an arranged marriage
>(having seen some pretty awful ones) and yet doesn't have the heart to
>tell her family that she doesn't want one because she thinks it will
>hurt them too much.
>
>I think a marriage she has to live with the rest of her life is more
>important than the possible hurt feelings of her family, but she has a
>much stronger sense of duty to them, and has difficulty withstanding
>the pressure they've started placing on her to get married quickly,
>before she becomes an old maid (she's 21).
>
>What do you think?  I don't feel their emotional manipulation is
>unfair...she thinks it's just the way they try to take care of her.
>(Never mind the fact that she is perfectly capable of taking care of
>herself).
>
>>Mehul "raja lakhan" Sanghvi    
>
> - Amirthi

I believe anyone who is 20 or older should be able to decide for
themselves what is good for them, even if it means disagreeing with
their parents and not listening to bad advice from stupid posters like 
me.

I sense that (pardon me if I am wrong) your friend feels the problem
is compounded because your friend is a woman. If that is the case,
she should do what most men in her position would do.

BTW, what WOULD most men in her position do? As a man I don't 
think I would fall for the emotional blackmail.

-Raghavan
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
From: tyadav@athena.mit.edu (Tapesh Yadav)
Subject: Re: Serving The Society
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 14:16:34 GMT

=================================
 nair@quintus.com (Anil Nair) writes:
>
>The superficialities are not a consequence of Hinduism. You should realise
>that any set of values which have been around for more than 2500 years
>adapts, changes and evolves in various forms which makes it hard to study
>the core of it. 

 Then what causes the superficialities?
 If the core is not that obvious, then wouldn't the interpretation be
 subjective?  If so, then aren't you really seeing what you want to see;
 instead of what it really is? 

 Why not, in that case emphasize:
	- forget the "core that is hard to study," and which has adapted
	  so much that all we now have is "morass of superficialities."
	- discover yourself, and what your own rational self thinks is right.

>It is similar to trying to get at the ideas of the ancient
>Greek philosophers (from which most (if not all) of western thought 
>is derived) by looking at Disneyworld, television and beauty pageants.
>
> I just like a good debate of ideas. 
>Anil Nair

 I disagree with you. "Western" thought is much too diverse/different to 
 be traced back to ancient Greek. (I have read Greeks - Socrates (all vers), 
 Plato, Aristotle, pre-socratics .....). In fact, some of the most
 profound thinkers have attempted to demolish them - Bacon, Neitzsche, Hume,
 Kant et al. Who in turn were cross examined by modern thinkers like Rand,
 Pirsig et al.

 The common theme of Greeks was: "Know yourself. Be yourself. Pursue arete."

 Hmmm. Isn't this group becoming alt.philosophy.history.and.debate ? :-)

 Survey time:
 How many readers of this group are enjoying this "examination of ideas."

 Guess, time to move on. 

T.Y.
----
tyadav@athena.mit.edu
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
From: cariapa@Tied-House.Stanford.EDU (Sandeep Cariapa)
Subject: Indians in Fiji (was Re: Indians in the Caribbean)
Organization: Stanford University
Distribution: na
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 92 19:35:28 GMT

In article <bjag-270792121238@owl.ls.nwu.edu>, bjag@nwu.edu (Bharathi Jagadeesh) writes:
|> 
|> Is it really true that Indians have avoided political involvement in Fiji,

	No this is not true. My friend's father was a Member of the Fijian 
Parliament before his untimely death due to a heart attack. He was the Minister
of Education. There are many people of Indian origin who are still quite active
in the Fijian political scene. The whole reason for the coup was because the
Indian led Labour Party came to power, and Fiji had an Indian Prime
Minister for the first time in its history. 

|> including not joining the military & police force? A few years ago, I heard
|> a speech by the Fijian Chief of Police (just about when these changes were
|> being put into effect) and I thought he was an Indian. I might have been
|> mistaken, though.

	I believe there are laws against Fijians of Indian origin
serving in the armed forces (or there are strict quotas against this). 

	There are also laws prohibiting anyone who is not native Fijian from
owning land. All land "owned" by Fijians-Indians is actually leased from native
Fijians. This is apparently because native Fijians have traditionally felt very
close to the land, and worship it, or something of the sort...

	There are strict quotas for Fijian-Indians who want to get a higher
education, resulting in a number of them opting to study in either New Zealand
or Australia.

	It is very interesting interacting with Fijian Indians: the dialect of
Hindi that they speak is very different from any of the Hindi I've
heard in India (which I admit, is quite a limited sample space) It is
more of a mixture of all Indian languages, since people from all over
India were shanghaied to Fiji. The language seems to have evolved
differently as well, since these people were isolated for such a long
time from mainland India. The cuisine is very different too, it uses a
lot of herbs and plants that are native to the South Pacific islands
and are unheard of in India. 

	It isn't quite true that the Indian Government didn't do
anything either. During the coup, the Indian Embassy vehemently
critized the behaviour of the Fijian Government, or at least the
Government that came to power after the coup. For all his efforts, the
Indian ambassador was expelled from the Islands. I think the Indian
Government did everything that it could do within its diplomatic
powers. Keep in mind that these people hold *Fijian* passports, not
Indian ones.   

	Well, enough rambling for now. No, I'm not from Fiji, but my girlfriend
is. 

--
 Sandeep Cariapa, cariapa@eecf.stanford.edu, (415) 723-1004 (work address)
 System programmer, EECF, Stanford University. 
 Hardware, n.: The parts of a computer system that can be kicked.
From: shangari9701@iscsvax.uni.edu
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
Subject: Desi friends 
Date: 21 Jul 92 14:09:36 -0500
Organization: University of Northern Iowa

Reading most of the articles from this month or so, I liked some responses
towards DESIS(positive and negative). Actually, I go to University of Northern
Iowa, and there are only 4 desi's.  I have  male and female Desi's, I
prefer Male desi's,  just because they are interesting to talk and
also enjoy their friendship.
                I had a bad experience with female desi's (age was in 20's),
that they would only talk about BOYFRIENDS, COMPARING CULTURES, SEX AND
DRINKING. That really disgusted me. Eventhough these female Desi's interest
 is only in these topics, than politics, sports etc. I think they should
interact with AMERICANS and enjoy their part of the culture. If that's the
problem, well!! that's tough. So, it's about time Female Desi's GROW UP.
 I have really nothing against female Desi's, I also come in the
female desi category, but I am not like them. Untill now, I realized that I
have best things about both the culture and I am proud of it. 
                        Well!! changing the topic from Female desi's to INDIAN
VALUES ETC... Who is not against the arranged wedding "bull shit"? Excuse me for
the profane language. I would like to get some response from anyone. Their
likes and dislikes about the ARRANGED WEDDING..  
                           In my opinion, this setup by your parents is nothing 
but crap, because it's like when you meet the Male desi's parents, the daughter
has to be like sweety Indian girl, who know how to be in the kitchen. Of
course, EDUCATION is the first priority. But to my interaction with this stuff,
it was a blind date. 
                    Again, I am interested in someones'reaction towards 
this article.
From: bjag@nwu.edu (Bharathi Jagadeesh)
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
Subject: Re: Indians in the Caribbean
Date: 27 Jul 92 17:18:11 GMT
Followup-To: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
Organization: Northwestern University

In article <1992Jul21.222834.19232@novell.com>, mvij@novell.com (Manish
Vij) wrote:
> 
> In article <14g2dhINNkcg@agate.berkeley.edu> murthy@heaviside.berkeley.edu (Praveen Murthy) writes:
> 
> >It's a pity that Indians haven't been very willing to completely immerse 
> >themselves in the local power structures and instead only cling on to 
> >buisnesses and professional jobs like here in the USA.  In particular, if they
> >were to join the police forces or armies, then situations like Fiji would never
> >occur.  If Indians had been in the army in Fiji according to their percentage
> >of the population (51%), at least a civil war would have ensued and the Indians
> >could have shown the Fijians that they weren't about to be driven out.  Instead
> >Indians seem to always become content by existing in a nether world of just
> >becoming prosperous but not becoming fully part of the society in which they 
> >live (like in the 70's here when many Indians didn't opt for citizenship
> >because of the fear of being drafted into the army.)
> 
> 
> Pardon my ignorance, but just what happened in Fiji?
> 
> Manish

Fiji adopted a constitution that basically disenfranchises the Indian
majority population, retains land ownership and other important rights to
the minority native Fijian population. Needless to say the Indians and
their ancestors have lived there for a long time and the Indians do not
have citizenship in any other country.

It's an interesting international problem because it sets off the rights of
native (say aboriginal populations) against immigrants. But in this case,
the imigrants are not white europeans, but Indians, many of whom were
coerced (I think indentured servitude offered to the poorest in Indian
society would qualify as coersion) in to immigrating. 

There's been a vast emmigration of educated Indians from Fiji. I think I
read somewhere that the number of physicians has dropped to a 1/3 or so of
what it was before the Fijians passed the constitution that deprived the
Indians of their rights.
Indians have been voicing their opposition to the Fijian changes by
leaving. It's not clear to me that a civil war would have been a better way
to try to try to change the unjust political system in Fiji. 

Is it really true that Indians have avoided political involvement in Fiji,
including not joining the military & police force? A few years ago, I heard
a speech by the Fijian Chief of Police (just about when these changes were
being put into effect) and I thought he was an Indian. I might have been
mistaken, though.

[I am not Fijian (or Fijian Indian); I've just always been interested in
this situation that is so soundly ignored in the West]

Bharathi Jagadeesh                 bjag@nwu.edu
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian,soc.culture.asian.american
From: mvij@novell.com (Manish Vij)
Subject: Re: Science and Technology (Re: Family values ...)
Organization: Novell Inc., San Jose, California
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 00:24:37 GMT

In article <1992Jul30.221403.29518@athena.mit.edu> tyadav@athena.mit.edu (Tapesh Yadav) writes:
>=================================
> I must agree with Shiv's statement. Orthodox religions have always frowned
> upon inquisitive thinking.

It's interesting that vedanta, a very philosophical part of Hinduism, has
always encouraged free thinking.  Perhaps that's the _reason_ why it 
flourishes in the West more than in India!

> Swami Nirmalanda:
>
> "Learn to live free in this unfree society by refusing to harbor thoughts,
>  the fetters of the mind."
>
> Well, no thought would imply no inquistive thinking. wouldn't it?
> My reading of eastern religions seem to suggest the ultimate goal to be to
> "blank out consciousness; achieve nirvana by blanking out." Of course, you

My reading of your posts blanks out my consciousness, and I certainly don't
achieve nirvana.
;^)

Manish
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
   Manish Vij                               /-\o /-()
   UC Berkeley:  mvij@ocf.berkeley.edu      \_/ \\/ )
   Novell:       mvij@ka.novell.com              |/_\
                                                  \_/.  .  . . ........
                                            '89 EX500
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Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
From: mgundeko@pcserver2.Naitc.Com (Murthy Gundekota)
Subject: Boy proposes, Girls' brother disposes
Organization: Somewhere near Chicago
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 92 14:25:56 GMT



What I am going to tell you is a true story. You have to take my word for
it or else we have to playing Turing.  Okay, here it is:

A friend of mine accosts (i.e. just sees without really interacting)
this gorgeous asian-indian girl. [What's gorgeous by the way? Here it
means, bright black overflowing curly hair with a white ribbon to
feather the cap; panty hose to match the dress; very little jewelry or
make up; quite cool on the outside] Anyway, he tries to meet her
several times and fails, 'cos she works in the busiest shoe store of
this end of the Chicago-land. 

One evening, my friend sights her in a mall, quickly buys a card, then
loses her, finds her car, drops the card, loses her, leaves in a
hurry. The card has his number. I know what most of you guys say:
``Just don't even THINK about her response. Go dig out your card from
the bottom of the maggot pit in the dump close by.'' Fine with me!
Fine with my friend! After all, he is following the advice of a
datologist who appeared in Oprah's show once (under severe gun fire
from feminists I might add) to speak about his dating strategy as:
``Print cards with your name and number, and hand them over to all the
women you meet in the public places as if you are seeking a job
interview or selling something.'' Sounds bizarre, hey? What works for
the goose...(you know how to finish that. ) 


Now, guess what happens after a few days? A ``boy-friend'' of the
Cinderella of the shoe store calls and makes a definite threat on my
friend like: ``I am gonna bring 8 car loads of people and break your
bones'' and blah blah. My friend is all piss and even registered a
police complaint (using the answering machine tape as the evidence).
Somehow, I could convince him to meet the girl. Before he met her, he
gets another phone call from yet another boy friend making a bodily
threat.  

It's time to meet NOW or NEVER! Cinderella admits the threats were
made by her brother and her dad without her knowledge! What a holy
Brady bunch!! Is this the way American-Indian kids are brought up to
handle date offers? I should say, being a Indian born myself, these
parents have to be banished from the land? Or else, unlike real
ostriches, their heads have to buried in sand. What do you guys and
gals think? Do you think Indian papas and mamas are over-protective
and hypertensive about their grown-up daughter's dating life?

Anyway, after some depressive days, my friend is back on track, even
though he could never forget that girl or forgive her over-protective
American born brother and Indian born father (obviously one following
the orders of the other).

Sigh!

Murthy
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
From: mvij@novell.com (Manish Vij)
Subject: Re: Perfect Families
Organization: Novell Inc., San Jose, California
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 00:20:42 GMT

In article <1992Jul30.223622.26947@Firewall.Nielsen.Com> mgundeko@pcserver2.Naitc.Com (Murthy Gundekota) writes:
>In article <4572@dove.nist.gov> hira@cme.nist.gov writes:
>>Every Asian-Indian family that I meet likes to put on a front that 
>>their family is perfect and that everyone in it is doing exceptionally
>>well. Its like they'll never admit any faults to you, which is quite
>>the opposite of what most white people I've met do.
>
>There are a lot of things Indian families do that white people don't.
>Indian parents don't talk about their sex lives, their children's
>dating habits or how copiously their pets have been treating them
>lately.  It is in the human nature as you can see around where no
>netter ever admits their faults. I think to admit one's faults one
>first needs to know how to tell a joke. And I bet the next thing you
>will say and I agree is that few Asian-Indians have a good sense of
>humor.

The "front" is one which I have also observed and participated in.  My
mother calls it "izzat," honor.  Perhaps it's less honor than a fear
of "what will others say?"  It has to do with the kinship structures
in India -- the tighter extended families compete for limited resources
against other kinship groups and this contributes to the need for
"izzat."

My dad has a great sense of humor.  It just depends on what strikes him
as funny.  Although his morals and ideals make him seem stiff-necked by
American standards, he's really not.  It depends on your standards.

If you want to talk consistently humorless, talk about IRS agents or
national research lab security personnel.  Or airline hostesses.  Geez!
Can't even take a good bomb joke!

;-)  Manish
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
   Manish Vij                               /-\o /-()
   UC Berkeley:  mvij@ocf.berkeley.edu      \_/ \\/ )
   Novell:       mvij@ka.novell.com              |/_\
                                                  \_/.  .  . . ........
                                            '89 EX500
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Xref: sparky alt.culture.us.asian-indian:357 soc.culture.asian.american:7375
From: mgundeko@pcserver2.Naitc.Com (Murthy Gundekota)
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian,soc.culture.asian.american
Subject: Re: Science and Technology (Re: Family values ...)
Date: 31 Jul 92 15:45:09 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Somewhere near Chicago

In article <1992Jul30.221403.29518@athena.mit.edu> tyadav@athena.mit.edu (Tapesh Yadav) writes:
> Quote from someone called Swami Nirmalanda:
>
> "Learn to live free in this unfree society by refusing to harbor thoughts,
>  the fetters of the mind."
> Well, no thought would imply no inquistive thinking. wouldn't it?

Try `prejudices' instead of thoughts. Remember that these people aren't 
Shakespeares. 

>But, then how do YOU know that
> your interpretation is what it was supposed to be? 

I don't. It's up to you to take or leave. Unfortunately, science
itself suffers from these interpretations. The whole gamut of
literature about time-space continuum following Einstein's relativity
is a good example of popular fiction. The interpretations are needed
in the first place because there is no means to verify. That is to
say, a lot of bad science precedes one good scientific breakthrough.
And most of the scientists who write popular books are just
too happy to be singing fisherman's songs than making catches (well,
did you watch `Old Man And The Sea'?). Note that scientists don't have
to be doctorates from accredited universities, well not always. All
they need to be is inquisitive, objective, sexually repressed, and a
good sense of humor.



Murthy
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
From: msanghvi@sol.ulowell.edu (Mehul Sanghvi)
Subject: Re: Serving The Society
Reply-To: msanghvi@cs.ulowell.edu
Organization: UMass-Lowell CS Dept.
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 21:41:37 GMT


In article <1992Jul18.010214.26560@organpipe.uug.arizona.edu> ajay@mercury.aichem.arizona.edu (Ajay Shah) writes:

>   deceased, to rebuilding of villages.  And again, when the Macchu
>   Dam collapsed in Morvi (Gujarat) RSS workers were out in force for
>   the rescue efforts.

 I am from Morvi and remeber that very well. My grandfather was the chairman 
of the Jain Sangh in Morvi and i remeber the RSS people helping to move the 
dead bodies etc. if it hadnt been for the RSS i doubt the things could have 
been done as effectively and as efficiently as they were done. the PM had come
to Morvi to inspect the scene (something all politicians never hesitate to do)
and all i remeber of her was a comment she made which was "Look at all the RSS
people roaming around in their chaadi's"! like i said i dont know what would 
have happened without the RSS.

forgive this journey down memory lane but i couldnt help it.

peace

--
===============================================================================
Mehul "raja lakhan" Sanghvi    | University of Massachusets at Lowell, CS Dept.
Inet: msanghvi@cs.ulowell.edu  | US Mail:  754 Aiken St. #11
UUCP: harvard!ulowell!msanghvi |           Lowell, MA. 01850-1804
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian