From: kevin@rotag.mi.org (Kevin Darcy)
Subject: Re: Sexual Harassment (was Re: Simon you're no ...
Keywords: You expect me to mark my deletions?  Dream on... 
Organization: Who, me???
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 17:43:45 GMT

In article <Bz3q8p.I68@news.cso.uiuc.edu> parker@ehsn21.cen.uiuc.edu (Robert S. Parker) writes:
>kevin@rotag.mi.org (Kevin Darcy) writes:
>
>>In article <1992Dec5.180235.8291@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> kcochran@nyx.cs.du.edu (Keith "Justified And Ancient" Cochran) writes:
>>>In article <1992Nov29.010703.23985@rotag.mi.org> kevin@rotag.mi.org (Kevin Darcy) writes:
>>>>In article <1992Nov28.061156.141801@watson.ibm.com> margoli@watson.IBM.com writes:
>>>>>In <1992Nov28.012209.19781@rotag.mi.org> kevin@rotag.mi.org (Kevin Darcy) writes:
>>>>>>In article <1992Nov24.004652.122650@watson.ibm.com> margoli@watson.IBM.com writes:
>>>>>>>In <1992Nov23.171722.3059@rotag.mi.org> kevin@rotag.mi.org (Kevin Darcy) writes:
>
>[Much bickering deleted]
>
>>Cite a non-abortion-specific law requiring a woman to "ask her physician"
>>before getting an abortion. As far as I can tell, a woman can currently
>>self-abort with the proverbial Big Rusty Nail (or anything she wants), and 
>>the law wouldn't have diddly-squat to say about that. Nor would it be able 
>>to prohibit the performance of an abortion on a comatose woman who had left 
>>explicit instructions for the abortion to be performed, i.e. a woman who 
>>technically failed to "ask her physician". Nor would the current law, as far 
>>as I can tell, allow bureaucratic strings like mandated signing and filing 
>>of Abortion Request Forms, before an abortion would be permitted. But 
>>apparently you want to change all of these legal realities. Why?
>
>You currently have to sign consent forms, etc for *any* surgery (or your legal
>guardian has to, or a relative perhaps in some situations...).  

I'm not aware that this is a statutory requirement, I think it's just 
something that physicians and hospitals PREFER you to do, because it protects
them from certain kinds of civil liability. I may be wrong on that.

>I think it is
>reasonable to assume that *that* sort of thing is what Keith was refering to,
>especially since he insists that what he *was* refering to already exists.

See above. As far as I know, there is no current statutory requirement that
a woman formally "ask her doctor" for an abortion. De facto medical standards
and statutory requirements aren't the same thing.

>[more bickering deleted]
>
>>Get a clue, dude. We're talking about >>YOUR<< "legal restriction" here. If my 
>>interpretation is correct (and so far no refutation has been forthcoming, only 
>>Larry's speculative attempts to discern what you MAY have meant, and 
>>inconclusive waffling from you), then one of us has a ProForcePosition, but it 
>>ain't me, my friend.
>
>Actually, you seem to be talking about your *interpretation* of his "legal
>restriction".  

Since he has not offered any clarifications of the exact extent of his
"legal restriction", my interpretations are all I have to go on. He has not
addressed the case of a woman in a coma. He has not defined "her doctor".
He has not commented on the possibility that his "legal restriction" could
result in the state requiring women to fill out Abortion Request Forms. He
has not addressed the future possibilities of self-abortion, which would
appear to be forbidden by his "legal restriction". He has just waffled and
waffled about how his "legal restriction" isn't really "restrictive" at all.
Personally, I don't find his vague protestations particularly convincing.

>Since abortion is considered elective surgery, I think it would
>automatically fall under legal restrictions on such surgeries.  I don't know
>for sure, but I would think that the thing that makes them "elective" is that
>the doctor can't say "you need it", you have to *ask for it*.  

Actually, I'm pretty sure doctors can OFFER elective surgery, and the patient
can just respond "yea" or "nay". The distinction between elective and non-
elective surgery is NOT, I believe, in who asks whom -- it's whether the
surgery is medically NECESSARY or not. Cosmetic surgery is elective. I know
that certain other kinds of surgery, like operating to remove excess tissue 
in nasal passages to facilitate easier breathing, is considered "elective".
Abortions are considered elective, too, except, as you pointed out in your 
article, when the pregnancy threatens the life or health of the mother.

								- Kevin
Newsgroups: talk.abortion