From: warren@pws.ma30.bull.com (Warren Lavallee)
Newsgroups: ne.politics,talk.abortion
Subject: Abortion: What does God say?
Date: 12 Aug 92 10:31:23 GMT
Followup-To: ne.politics
Distribution: ne

I have gotten many responses to my post.  
One was positive, and the rest were negative.
Here are responses to the articles posted here
(less one that I send via EMail).

ckd = ckd@eff.org (Christopher Davis)
bzs = bzs@ussr.std.com (Barry Shein)

>Subject: Re: Abortion: What does God say?
>Date: 11 Aug 92 17:40:01 GMT
>
ME>    "Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you, and before you were
ME> born I consecrated you..." Jeremiah 1:4-5
ME>    The Bible says that John the Baptist was "filled with the Holy
ME> Spirit while yet in his mother's womb." Luke 1:15
ME>    David wrote, "For thou has possessed my inward parts; thou hast
ME> covered me in my mother's womb." Psalms 139:13
ME>    In Luke Chapter 1, we read about Mary visiting Elisabeth while
ME> both were pregnant. John the Baptist, in Elisabeth's womb, leaped when
ME> he heard Mary's greeting. Luke, when writing of this story, used the
ME> same Greek word (brephos) in describing the unborn John (1:41 & 44)
ME> and the newborn Jesus (2:12 & 16).
ME>    Clearly, God considers an unborn child a person from conception.
ME> How can we, as human beings, think any differently?
ckd>
ckd>Not *one* of these quotes says anything about "from conception."  They
ckd>could very well apply to a fetus that is near the end of term; the last,
ckd>talking about "leaping", clearly does not refer to a 16-cell blastula.
ckd>
ckd>Maybe God considers an unborn child a person in the third trimester.
bzs>
bzs>In the passage you so conveniently edited it is clear that God is
bzs>speaking specifically to Jeremiah, the point being that he was unique
bzs>in this regard:
bzs>
bzs>	1:4 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 1:5 Before I
bzs>	formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out
bzs>	of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the
bzs>	nations.
bzs>
bzs>Unless you further claim that He has ordained all people prophets unto
bzs>nations.

   "Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you, and before you were
    born I consecrated you..." Jeremiah 1:4-5

Yes he was talking to Jerimiah.  The point is before He formed Jerimiah in
the womb, He knew him.  

	a) He (God) formed Jerimiah in the womb
	b) God knew Him before he was even formed in the womb (conceived?)

God is all powerful.  He is everywhere.  He knows everything.

If God says He knew one person before He was born, before he was even
conceived, then I would say that an all-powerful God would know 
everyone before they were born.

Jesus loves you and has a wonderful plan for your lives.

It says in  Ro 8:29 "For those God foreknew, he also predestined to be
conformed to the likeness of His Son, that He might be the firstborn 
amoung many brothers."

Romans 11:1-4 (just to not take it out of context)
A ask then: Did God reject His people?  By no means! I am an Israelite myself,
a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin.  God did not reject
His people, who he foreknew.  Don't you know what the Scripture says in the
passage about Elijah-- how he appealed to God against Israel:
"Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the
only one left, and they are trying to kill me" ?
And what was God's answer to him?  "I have reserved for myself seven thousand
who have not bowerd the knee to Baal."

1Tim2:3-4
This is good, and pleases God our Saviour, who wants all men to be saved
and come to a knowledge of the truth.

It says above that God foreknew His people.  And those he forknew, 
he predestined to be conformed to the likeness of His Son.

Sounds like to me:
	a) God knows his people before we are born.
	b) God desires us all to be His people.
	c) God has a wonderful plan for all of His peoples lives.

Now you tell me, before someone is even born, who is going to be one
of God's people.  Otherwise, when you kill a baby in the womb, you may
be killing someone God:

	a) created
	b) knows & loves
	c) has a plan for

ME>   In Luke Chapter 1, we read about Mary visiting Elisabeth while
ME>both were pregnant. John the Baptist, in Elisabeth's womb, leaped when
ME>he heard Mary's greeting. Luke, when writing of this story, used the
ME>same Greek word (brephos) in describing the unborn John (1:41 & 44)
ME>and the newborn Jesus (2:12 & 16).

bzs>Sounds like quickening, what's your point here?

The same greek word is used in describing an unborn child as describing
the new born Jesus.

bzs>Your view will get nowhere until you show that you are more concerned
bzs>with loving and caring for the children and women who bear them than
bzs>you are concerned with controlling them.

Our church is currently providing shelter for two unwed mothers.  We 
particiapte in and support the Nashua Crisis Pregnancy Center, who help
many mothers, and soon-to-be in times of crisis.

bzs>That's the problem with people who hold your point of view. In the end
bzs>you're utter hypocrites and ready to jump up and force OTHERS to make
bzs>sacrifices for your beliefs. You bathe in false self-glory, it is

bzs>All you're doing is casting stones. It's so easy to cast a stone, such
bzs>a self-righteous feeling act.

I am not casting stones.  I am not saying "go ye this way" and walking away.
We are putting what be believe to practice.  We are helping mothers.  We
tell them what God thinks, then we help them to do it, and provide support.
We do not judge.  Judgement belongs to God.

I agree that the Bible is very judgemental.

>From: gordon@gandalf.think.com (gordon linoff)
>Newsgroups: ne.politics
>Subject: Re: Abortion: What does God say?
>Date: 11 Aug 92 19:38:06 GMT
>
>   >>You want hot button topics?  How about Pennsylvania's (I think) "strict"
>   >>abortion law and "family values?"
>
>   Let's look at what God says about abortion:
>
>Let's look at what the United States Constitution says about
>religion:
>
>	Article I.  Congress shall make no law respecting an
>	establishment of religion . . .
>
>You're god is not my god and has no place in our government.

That's not right.

Everyone has a religion.  Everyone worship's someone/something.
Whether it be sin, your bodies, pleasures, or created things.

If we followed your statement above then nothing at all would have
a place in our government.  At least Quayle (you are talking about
him right?) has a Holy God, with sound morals.  I would much rather
have him than someone who worships satan and sacrafices people to him.


>	. . .
>
>		    From the Last Days Newsletter.
>
>	. . .
>

In regards to this, neither of us has seen it, so we can't really talk
about it.

I have seen, and have the video called Hard Truth.

It has no voice over.  There is music during the scenes.  It's about
5 minutes long.  I showed it to my fiancee, and she lasted about 2 seconds
before she burst into tears, and asked me to turn it off.

The opening seen was something like tongs pulling out what seems to be 
a roundish hunk of flesh, but then it turns a little, and you can see the
eyes, a nose, and a mouth.  There is blood everywhere.

If you haven't actually seen what the "choice" is in pro-choice, I think
you should.  It will change your life.

>For the most part, pro-choice people are concerned with
>giving women control of their lives.  The fact that
>thousands of American women have lost their lives in illegal
>abortions suggests that "pro-life" may mean "pro-fetus" but
>not much more.
>
>I have a very personal bias against pro-life people because
>they came close to killing my sister.  A Catholic hospital
>that refused to perform abortions refused to remove a
>4-month old fetus from my sister's body while its heart was
>beating (after a miscarriage when her water broke).  Had my
>sister waited at that hospital for the heart to stop
>beating, she may have died from infection along with it.
>Thank you pro-life folks.

I have no medical background, so this means nothing to me.
I would say that saving both lifes would be first priority
if the mothers life is in danger.  Then the mother would
have to pray, and ask God what to do. 

Someone I know was in a situation once.  The doctors said
she could not carry the baby to term, and if she tried she
would probally die during birth.  The doctor recommended
immediate abortion. She prayed and prayed, and felt like God
told her not to kill the baby.  She carried the baby to term
and gave birth naturally with no problems.

The same situation happened to someone else.  God told her
she would die if she carried the baby to term.  She felt
that she still had work to do on this earth.  She told the
Lord that, and the Lord took the baby away.  The doctors said
the baby was gone, and there was no evidence of a miscarriage.
No evidence that she was never pregnant at all.


>Use your efforts to stop the need for abortion, such as
>supporting sex education programs in school.  Use your
>efforts to keep babies alive once they are born; in Boston,
>black babies are three times more likely to die in the first
>year than white babies.  Use your efforts to provide medical
>care for pregnant women.  Use your efforts to provide homes
>for youth in foster care or minority children, who are not
>in high demand like white babies.  Then come back and tell
>me that you are "pro life".

We support Norm and Ginny Cadarete.  Norm is HIV positive.
Norm contracted it from a blood transfusion.  For the past six
years they have practiced abstinance, and Ginny still does not have
HIV.

They go to NE area high schools and give a message of abstinance.

I am pro-life.
--
Warren Lavallee MA30/806A  Work: warren@pws.bull.com           Be | true
Bull Information Systems                                        --+--
300 Concord Rd.                                                   | Unbeliever
Billerica, MA. 01821                                       answer | the call.
Newsgroups: ne.politics