HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: PRDESENV@orion.cpqd.ansp.br (Claudio Max)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.esperanto
Subject: Kato
Date: 18 Aug 92 11:43:00 GMT
Distribution: inet
Organization: The Internet

Mi cxiam pensas pri la memcentrismo homa.

Kiam mi rigardas katon mi nur pensas pri estajxo.
Se mi bezonas specifi, pro iu kialo, la sekson, do mi diras virkaton
kaj katinon.

Kiam mi rigardas virinon kaj mi tiam volas fari iom pli ol paroli,
mi do vidas menso kaj inoformo.

Kiam mi rigardas nur amikinon mi tiam vidas nur menso. Menso por
kunparoli kaj kunamuzigxi.
(Cxu mi rajtas KUNmeti "kun" tiel?)

Cxu la inistoj (kaj cxefe la inistinoj) ne estas seksistaj?
Cxu sekso estas tiel grava?

Bonvolu klarigi iun misideon.

Klauxdjo
From: 72627.2647@compuserve.com (Don HARLOW)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.esperanto
Subject: Re: Easy to learn English?
Date: 16 Aug 92 15:00:39 GMT
Distribution: inet
Organization: The Internet

To: Esperanto >INTERNET:esperanto@rand.org

Dato: 920815

Rich Wingerter writes:

>Since Esperanto is a "defined" language, perhaps this is a problem that could
>be fixed if enough people wanted it to be.  Surly new words are added to
>Esperanto, and new words for "female", "mother", "daughter", etc. could, in
>theory, be added.

Problem is that the structure of Esperanto is not conducive to adding 
new roots as synonyms for already existing forms (see the fate of most 
of the MAL- synonyms over the past half century). Most Esperantists, 
women included, would refuse to learn "femalo", "matro", "dotero" 
when they already have "virino", "patrino" and "filino" (which they 
didn't really have to learn separately anyway).

The solution to this problem, if it really is a problem and not merely a 
manifestation of a temporary enthusiasm for "political correctness" in 
some parts of the world (a point upon which another generation must 
pass judgement), is the creation of a male suffix symmetric to the 
currently used female one. If Esperantists in general start using such a 
suffix today, the Academy of Esperanto will probably rule on the 
subject in about 2042.

(Note that Esperanto was "defined" some 105 years ago, and today has 
several million speakers around the world. Attempting to "fix" real or 
imagined faults in the language is somewhat akin to attempting to "fix" 
a minor malfunction in the motor of a car moving down a busy freeway 
at 105 miles per hour; it can be done, but it's a ticklish procedure. 
Fortunately, the presence or absence of a male suffix is no more 
significant to the language's deeper functioning than a burned-out light 
on the dashboard of a car is to its continued good health -- and _that_ 
can be fixed while the car is moving, if everybody feels strongly enough 
about it.)

>Of course, I suspect that the vast majority of Esperantist are men.   :-)

If you leave out the word "vast", you're probably correct. I remember a 
study that UEA printed a decade or so ago, that showed male-female 
ratios in the Esperanto movement ranged from about 50-50 in Finland 
to 70-30 in Japan; in the new African movements, those ratios are 
probably even higher. I would guess that the ratio in the U.S. is 55-45 
or 60-40. (Anyone want to go through ELNA's address list, tally up the 
plumbing, and shoot me down?)

=============================================
Don HARLOW                                Redaktoro Esperanto U.S.A.
tel. (1 510) 222 0187
CompuServe [72627,2647]
Internet 72627.2647@compuserve.com

"To discipline Esperantists is to eat soup with chopsticks."
                                                          Confucius
=============================================
From: juana@ruhets.rutgers.edu (Juana Moreno)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.esperanto
Subject: Re: easy to learn English?
Date: 14 Aug 92 18:38:29 GMT
Article-I.D.: ruhets.Aug.14.14.38.28.1992.6779
Distribution: inet
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

carruth@mksol.dseg.ti.com (matthew carruth) writes:

>My understanding is that "amiko" is neutral with respect to gender.  "vir-" and
>"-in-" add the masculine and feminine qualities.  The natural evolution of 
>Esperanto has taken it away from using the masculine and feminine forms and towards 
>the neutral.  Every language has some things that seem odd to many.  The use of
>"girlfriend" by women to mean "friend that is a girl", but "boyfriend", used by
>both men and women, means something altogther differnet.

 Wouldn't it be more logical to introduce a symmetric masculine suffix, like
 -iv or -un or some other? We could just say that the lack of symmetry is due
 to the fact that the creator of the language "forgot" the masculine suffix.
 I'd rather like "patrivo" or "patruno" than "virpatro". It would be the
 solution to eliminate the critics of sexism forever. And maybe I and some
 other people would be more willing to learn the language.
From: miner@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.esperanto
Subject: Re: Sex and the Single Esperantist
Date: 17 Aug 92 00:26:40 CDT
Distribution: inet
Organization: University of Kansas Academic Computing Services

In article <920816221418_72627.2647_DHJ52-1@CompuServe.COM>, 72627.2647@compuserve.com (Don HARLOW) writes:

> Dr. George Hinkelmyer:
> 
>>(Considering how Biologists are
>>now saying that the human brain starts out basically 'female' and then
>>transformations must be done on it to make it 'male', we humans seem
>>to have gotten it somehow backwards! :-)
> 
> Excuse me, but how does a woman's brain differ from a man's?  I 
> thought the differences were found elsewhere in the body.

See the issue of _Scientific American_ now on the stands for a
summary.
		Ken <miner@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu>

Newsgroups: soc.culture.esperanto
From: carruth@mksol.dseg.ti.com (matthew carruth)
Subject: Re: easy to learn English?
Organization: internet
Distribution: inet
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 15:13:17 GMT

In article <199208131941.AA15031@rand.org>, JLIECHTY@UCS.INDIANA.EDU (Jon Liechty) writes:
|> 
|> 	As Charlie Galvin has pointed out, "patrino" can be replaced
|> by "naskinto" ("one who has given birth").  It's perfect Esperanto, and
|> easily understood without explanation.
|> 	There is another use of the "-in" suffix that I find very strange
|> and would like to see explained: the word "amikino" used to mean "girlfriend"
|> in the same sense as in English.  This isn't just a "female friend", but a 
|> "female friend with whom one is having a very close (possibly sexual)
|> relationship".  In "classic" Esperanto, this usage is very strange; "amiko"
|> would mean a male friend, but never a "boyfriend".  The only way "amikino"
|> makes any sense at all is if you use a more "modern" interpretation: "amiko"
|> itself is sexless, and the "-in" suffix is needed to emphasize that the
|> word does not have its usual meaning.  I assume that a woman (or, for
|> that matter, a gay man) could use "vir-amiko" for the same approximate
|> effect, but I've never seen this done.  Comments, anyone?
|> 		-Jon
|> 

-- 
My understanding is that "amiko" is neutral with respect to gender.  "vir-" and
"-in-" add the masculine and feminine qualities.  The natural evolution of 
Esperanto has taken it away from using the masculine and feminine forms and towards 
the neutral.  Every language has some things that seem odd to many.  The use of
"girlfriend" by women to mean "friend that is a girl", but "boyfriend", used by
both men and women, means something altogther differnet.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My views are my own and do not reflect those of my employeers....
From: MATCK@MVS.UDAC.UU.SE (Christer Kiselman)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.esperanto
Subject: Re: mia / la mia
Date: 21 Aug 92 14:02:43 GMT
Article-I.D.: rand.199208211333.AA22509
Distribution: inet
Organization: The Internet
X-Unparsable-Date: Fri, 21 Aug 92 15:23 CET

Tamen la vortordo influas la signifon. Ekzemple "granda festo katolika"
kaj "katolika festo granda" ne estas samsignifaj. Same pri
"usona aviadilo rapida" kaj "rapida aviadilo usona". Ke la vortordo
estas 'libera' (iom stranga termino) signifas ke pluraj ordoj estas
eblaj, permesitaj, ne ke ili ^ciuj havas la saman signifon.
  Christer
From: 72627.2647@compuserve.com (Don HARLOW)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.esperanto
Subject: Re: La sufikso -ab-
Date: 16 Aug 92 21:09:28 GMT
Distribution: inet
Organization: The Internet

To: Esperanto >INTERNET:esperanto@rand.org

Dato: 920816

Jo"rg Knappen faris la jenan demandon:

De kie devenas la sufikso -ab-? La deveno de -i^c- estas klara al mi, kaj 
-ang- de "jang" mi ^satas. Sed -ab- mi neniam estas leginta.

Mi demandis pri tio al s-ino Cathy Schulze, de kiu mi unuafoje 
auxdis pri gxi antaux jaroj, kaj sxi diris, ke sxi auxdis pri gxi de 
Jonathan Pool kaj Mark Mandel, kaj ke eble Mark pruntis gxin de 
la hebrea lingvo. Mi opinias, ke Jonathan kaj Mark legas cxi tiun 
forumon, kaj ke eble ili bonvolos prikomenti tion.

=============================================
Don HARLOW                                Redaktoro Esperanto U.S.A.
tel. (1 510) 222 0187
CompuServe [72627,2647]
Internet 72627.2647@compuserve.com

"To discipline Esperantists is to eat soup with chopsticks."
                                                          Confucius
=============================================


Newsgroups: soc.culture.esperanto
From: ederveen@research.ptt.nl (Ederveen D.)
Subject: Re: Komputilaj katalogoj de Esperanto-literaturo
Reply-To: D.N.M.Ederveen@research.ptt.nl
Organization: PTT Research
Distribution: inet
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 08:36:55 GMT

dfkihueg@RZ.UNI-SB.DE ("Edmund Grimley-Evans") writes:
>Pro la helpema informo de Jens KARLSSON mi nun scias pri du tiaj:
>(1) "Universitaet des Saarlandes": telnet paula.rz.uni-sb.de
>(2) "University of California": telnet melvyl.ucop.edu
>Amba^u estas katalogoj de universitataj bibliotekoj. La unua enhavas
>^c. 700 Esperanto-librojn, la dua ^c. 450.
>Se iu scias pri aliaj, bonvole skribu al mi!

En mia antauxa posxtajxo mi aldonis informojn pri la biblioteko de
Nijmegen, Nederlando. Mi forgesis diri ke tiuj-cxi informoj estu aldonitaj
al la FAQ-dosiero de Mike Urban, cxu ne? Mike, cxu vi legas tion-cxi aux
cxu vi (hazarde) ferias?
-de
Newsgroups: soc.culture.esperanto
From: jbm@hal.trl.OZ.AU (Jacques Guy)
Subject: Esperanto defects: so what?
Organization: Telecom Research Labs, Melbourne, Australia
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 00:12:51 GMT

First apologies for not writing this in Esperanto: although 
I can read it fairly fluently, I am hopeless at writing it,
for lack of active vocabulary.

The most sensible reaction I have read about the defects
of Esperanto comes from Bob le Chevalier, a.k.a. Lojbab,
the continuing designer of Lojban. I'll quote just one
paragraph of his lengthy message on the conlang group:

-------------  start quote -----------------------
It is thus my contention that once a language starts to develop a speaking
and using community, that the language is "done".  It is no longer 
"perfectable"; any further change is a very sticky political wicket that must
be confined to the nooks and crannies of the language that perhaps have not
yet been taught or used extensively (which is indeed where 99% of all
proposed Lojban changes that are seriously considered these days can be
categorized).  Esperanto has developed such a community, and as I have found
out, so now has Lojban.  The type of issues that raised in these critiques
that are posted by Rick and Bruce are NOT minor issues tucked in the corners
of the language; they are fundamental to the design and concept of the
langauge, and any change would require significant relearning among those
who have already learned the language, would make every existing textbook
of the language, and every book of literature written in or translated to
the language invalid.

----------   end quote   -----------------------

I would like to go even one further. There are some aspects of Esperanto
the alteration of which would not be fundamental to the design of the 
language. Yet they should be left alone. 

For instance, one could drop the accusative. Or rationalize
personal pronouns. When I first learnt Esperanto -- I was 10 -- I was
stunned by the logic and usefulness of those "verbs in -i, nouns in -o,
adjectives in -a, etc" rules.	Then I wondered "why did Zamenhof break his
own rules?" For the article, ending in -a, is logically and properly
an adjective-like word. It should have been inflected for number and 
case, I thought. Personal pronouns, I thought further, are noun-like,
not verb-like. Why do they end in -i then? And "we" should be the plural
of "I", so we should have something like  ego (I), egoj (we). Such
were the reforming projects of a 10-year old.

But I know now that the added symmetry would not be worth the disruption
at all. It's a bit of a pity, yes, so what? How many learners, at any
rate, notice those inconsistencies? More, I would think, stumble on
those consonant clusters, such as in "scii", unless they have a natively
nimble tongue.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.esperanto
From: cigno@sgi.com (Kevin Walsh)
Subject: Re: Vir- and -in-
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc.
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 92 18:49:08 GMT

In article <9208190759.AA16983@evs2.uia.ac.be> slootman@EVS2.UIA.AC.BE (Wim Slootmans) writes:
>>>Mia $0.02 worth:
 ...
>Mi mem ne kontrauxas la ideon pri la uzo de `-icx'.  Sed estos malfacile
>por mi ekuzi gxin nun, cxar mi ne lernis gxin kiam mi lernis esperanton
>kaj tial gxi aspektas iomete stranga al la lingvo.  Tamen mi ne atakus
>la uzantojn de `icx'.
> 

	Nu, mi nun komencas uzi "icx".  Sed plej parte mi malofte uzas
	vortojn kiuj specifas genron.  

	Interese, la icx sufikso donas al Esperanto genran simetrion
	kaj, se oni deziras, liberecon, kiu estas nova al mi.  Mi unue
	pensis pri tion kiam iu menciis la vortojn: fratro, fratricxo,
	kaj fratrino.  Tiu demonstris al mi ke mia menso ankorau enhavas
	iom da nekonscian seksismon.  

	Per la uzo de "icx", mi kredas ke mi povas sxangxi mian menson 
	esti malpli seksisma.  Tiu estas stranga afero--ke la uzo de
	genra specifantan sufikson povas malpliigi seksismon.  Tamen 
	mi kredas ke la vero estas tiel--eble cxar komplete nei ke genro 
	eksistas estas neado de veron kaj la diversecon de homa vivo.   

	Iam genro gravas, iam ne.  Nun mi povas diras au -in au -icx au 
	ecx neniu de la du.  

--
------
"I've always thought of Boston traffic as Brownian motion with
evil intent."  -- Don Coolidge coolidge@speaker.sgi.com
From: 72627.2647@compuserve.com (Don HARLOW)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.esperanto
Subject: Re: nur al programistoj
Date: 14 Aug 92 07:06:19 GMT
Distribution: inet
Organization: The Internet

To: Esperanto >INTERNET:esperanto@rand.org

Dato: 

Zhong Qi-Iao proponas la jenan formon por la "C" if-then-else deklaro:

>----------

/* "esperant.h" */
#define se if
#define alie else

        se (a == 5) skribf("%d\n", b); alie skribf("%d\n", c);

>------------

Mi opinias, ke tiu estas la pli-malpli kutima Esperantovorta formo. 
Sed cxu mi rajtas proponi la jenan alternativon?

/* "esperant.h" */
#define cxu if
#define jes 
#define ne else

          cxu (a == 5)
                   jes {skribf("%d\n", b)};
                   ne {skribf("%d\n", c)};

Laux mi, tiu estas pli klara ecx ol la originala anglalingva formo.

=============================================
Don HARLOW                                Redaktoro Esperanto U.S.A.
tel. (1 510) 222 0187
CompuServe [72627,2647]
Internet 72627.2647@compuserve.com

"To discipline Esperantists is to eat soup with chopsticks."
                                                          Confucius
=============================================
From: dwolff@res-c4.Prime.COM (David Wolff)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.esperanto
Subject: Re: Interlingua?
Date: 19 Aug 92 21:02:17 GMT
Organization: Prime Computer, Inc.

In article <1992Aug19.131725.8903@ncsu.edu>, padeniso@eos.ncsu.edu (PAUL ANDREW DENISOWSKI) writes:
>
> 	I was a serious Esperanto student for a number of years, but finally
> all but abandoned it and switched over to Interlingua.  I think one of
> the biggest failings of Esperanto is, in fact, the entire "movado." 
> There are too many Esperantists who either view themselves as members of
> some exclusive club, or who are so possessed by ideas of world
> peace/brotherhood/whatever, that they ignore the fact that Esperanto
> simply isn't catching on.
((Interlingua info deleted)) 
> Contrary
> to the beliefs held by many (most) Esperantists, it is NOT a
> particularly easy language to master, and (as witnessed at the last ELNA
> convention) is not spoken well even by some of its biggest supporters.
> 
> 	I don't want to be seen as "Esperanto-bashing", but I think some
> serious changes need to be made if Esperanto is to ever catch on.  My
> first suggestion would be to use Esperanto to discuss things other than
> Esperanto itself or the "movado"   While it is true that there are many
> other subjects discussed in Esperanto, it sometimes seems that the
> entire raison d'etre for Esperanto is so that people can use Esperanto
> to talk about Esperanto.

Paul, it seems to me that using ELNA conventions as any indication of
what normal Esperantists are like is starting from the wrong foot.

First, of course the national convention will be filled with activists
who have an enormous interest in the movement.

Second, some activists never do learn Esperanto.  I suspect you'll find that
with any language (international or not);  it's more of a problem with
Esperanto in the US because Esperanto is a little farther from English
than Interlingua or others.  (This is a widely recognized problem...
some people are more inclined to talk than to study.  What can you do?)

Third, and perhaps most important, the week-long ELNA conventions are
REALLY BORING!!!  (Sorry about the shouting.)  Last year's convention in
Raleigh/Durham was just during a weekend, and we had talks on travelling,
medicine, and other non-movado topics.  (I wish I hadn't been stuck in
business meetings almost the whole time.)  We had many more people, and
a much wider variety of people, than you probably saw at this year's LK.

I completely agree with your first suggestion to use Esperanto to discuss
things other than Esperanto itself and the movado.  We do accomplish this...
just not at ELNA conventions.  Also see the discussions about the
"Resolution of Rau~mo" for an international point on this.

Thanks --

David Wolff

dwolff@RES-C4.Prime.COM (works from most places)
dwolff%res-c4.prime.com@relay.cs.net (alternate)

Disclaimer:  Reflecting Prime policy is a non-goal of this posting.
FreeAdvert:  Esperanto, the international language *that works*:
             Call (800) 828-5944 for free info package (US or Canada)
WittyQuote:  Are we kinder and gentler yet?
Kibofodder:  sle Kibo zow
From: latta@scam.berkeley.edu (Craig R. Latta)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.esperanto
Subject: The Evolution of Esperanto
Date: 16 Aug 92 21:39:43
Organization: Experimental Computing Facility (XCF)
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: xcf.berkeley.edu



	Hmmm. I recently came upon an allusion in this newsgroup that
the specification for Esperanto was guided by some sort of referendum.
I'd like some more information on that. Did it try to maintain some
sort of consistency and cohesion in Esperanto's evolution? Or was it
similar to attempts at keeping French "pure"?

	What happened to it? Though I realize the difficulty and
partial futility of committees and standards (I'm a computer scientist,
among other things), having to wait generations for "natural change"
bothers me. I thought one of the benefits of languages like Esperanto
was being able to speed, organize and guide that process a bit.


-C

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Craig R. Latta           Experimental Computing Facility                (XCF)
Composer, Software and   ParcPlace Systems, Inc.        (latta@parcplace.com)
    Recording Engineer   NetJam, Berkeley                (netjam-request@xcf)
latta@xcf.Berkeley.EDU   Smallmusic OO music project (smallmusic-request@xcf)
(standard  disclaimer)	 proof NL parsing project         (proof-request@xcf)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: soc.culture.esperanto
From: krak@quads.uchicago.edu (leszek  kordylewski)
Subject: Re: How many Esperantists
Reply-To: krak@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Distribution: inet
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1992 16:25:11 GMT

In article <YeTmAB600VQE8Ctmd_@andrew.cmu.edu> bas+@andrew.cmu.edu (Bruce Sherwood) writes:

>Jen defio por vi:  Se vi dezirus fidinde scii, kiom da personoj en la
>mondo parolas Esperanton super iu nivelo, kion VI farus por fari la
>takson?

La eldonkvanto de E-libroj, lernolibroj, gazetoj kaj revuoj povus esti 
uzebla faktoro por pritaksi la esperantistan populacion. 
Same, E-radiostacioj iel kalkulas la nombron de la auxskultantoj por 
pravigi sian ekziston. Ja ili estas kostaj. Mi demandus ilin.
Alia ideo: uzu la nombron de la s.c.e.-uzantoj kompare al la tuta (krokodila)
netuzantanaro kaj proporcie komparu al la tutmonda homa populacio. 
La nombro de E-uzantoj tiel pritaksita estus impona, cxu ne? :-) 


-- 
KRAK@MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU 

Newsgroups: soc.culture.esperanto
From: slootman@evs1.uia.ac.be (Wim Slootmans)
Subject: ^serco
Organization: U.I.A.
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 13:24:42 GMT

Mi ^jus legis ^ci tion en eunet.jokes kaj pensis ke ^gi eble interesus
kelkajn.

: Q: What do you call someone who speaks three languages?
: A: Trilingual
: 
: Q: What do you call someone who speaks two languages?
: A: Bilingual
: 
: Q: What do you call someone who speaks one language?
: A: American

WS
-- 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
| Wim Slootmans       elektrona posxto: slootmans@uia.ac.be       |
| Antverpeno, Belgio                    slootmans@banuia51.bitnet |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
From: hottasan@ho.shs.sumiden.co.jp (HOTTA Hirohiko)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.esperanto
Subject: UK en 1993, 1994
Date: 17 Aug 92 03:49:50 GMT
Distribution: inet
Organization: The Internet


Mi sendis tie chi mensogan onidiron. Pardonon.

UK en 1993 okazos en Hispanio.

Krome UK kaj IJK en 1994 en Koreio estas oficiale fiksita.
Kaj probable unu el postkongreso de UK en Koreio okazos en
Japanio. Chu tiam iu el vi ne vizitos mian landon? :-)
--
HOTTA Hirohiko /Faka delegito de UEA /Konsiliano de Japana Esperanto-Instituto