HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: daves@hpcvusd.cv.hp.com (Dave Serisky)
Newsgroups: or.politics
Subject: Re: liberal activists
Date: 6 Oct 92 17:30:47 GMT
Article-I.D.: hpcvusn.1992Oct6.173047.4102
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Co., Corvallis, OR, USA

|> My prediction for Measure 9 is that it will receive a *minimum* of 35%
|> of the vote.  I suspect that it will be more in the 40-45%.  As a
|> reference point you can use the last OCA measures which got 55% of the
|> vote in Springfield and 30%(?)  of the vote in Corvallis.  As far as
|> Oregon voters go, Corvallis is representative of the minority and
|> Springfield is representative of the majority.  I'm still not confident
|> that Measure 9 will go down...

Well, this morning KLCC reported that a phone poll of 600 Oregonians
showed that "an overwhelming majority opposed Measure 9".  The poll
showed 33% supported, 62% opposed, 5% undecided.  Personally, I'm not
"overwhelmed" by less than a two thirds opposition.  I still predict
that it will receive a *minimum* of 35%.  And I'm still not confident
that it will go down to defeat.

-- 
-- Dave Serisky
From: robart@agora.rain.com (Robert Barton)
Newsgroups: or.politics
Subject: Packwood supports term limits?
Date: 4 Oct 92 03:29:05 GMT
Article-I.D.: agora.BvKv0I.KA6
Distribution: or
Organization: Organization


  For his opponents, of course.

  Vote NO on Bob Packwood AND Les AuCoin.
Newsgroups: or.politics,talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.libertarian
From: chrisbro@ssd.intel.com (Chris Browne)
Subject: Re: Measure 9 in Oregon
Organization: Supercomputer Systems Divison, Intel Corp.
Distribution: na
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 17:35:15 GMT

	Does anyone have a copy of measure 9 that I could read?  I would like to 
know what the wording is.

				Thanks
				Chris Browne
From: markm@ogicse.ogi.edu (Mark Morrissey)
Newsgroups: or.politics
Subject: Re: liberal activists
Date: 29 Sep 92 05:08:47 GMT
Article-I.D.: ogicse.43334
Organization: Oregon Graduate Institute (formerly OGC), Beaverton, OR

In article <43332@ogicse.ogi.edu> markm@ogicse.ogi.edu (Mark Morrissey) writes:
>
>... then you doubt the power of indictination ...
                                 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I hate it when I stutter.

Please substitute "intimidation".

You may now return to your regularly scheduled programming.

--mark

Newsgroups: or.politics
From: markm@ogicse.ogi.edu (Mark Morrissey)
Newsgroups: or.politics
Subject: Re: Measure 9 Woes
Date: 7 Oct 92 01:18:18 GMT
Article-I.D.: ogicse.43742
Organization: Oregon Graduate Institute (formerly OGC), Beaverton, OR

In article <1992Oct6.183336.11447@intelhf.hf.intel.com> labelle@intelhf.hf.intel.com (George La Belle) writes:
>nuffy@intelhf.hf.intel.com (John Hagler) writes:
>
>
>>While I oppose it in general I do agree with a couple of points. One is I dont believe that homosexuals should be allowed minority status.
>
>	Why not? Blacks do, Jews do, women do.

Well, let's get something straight here (no pun intended).

Homosexuals *should* be allowed minority status *if* (and I say *if*)
there is substantial evidence that there is substantial discrimination
against homosexuals *because* they are homosexuals.

This is similar to the earlier statement of discrimination based on
size/weight.  If there is evidence that persons who weigh over some
amount are discriminated against as a group by society at large, then I
believe that they should be given serious consideration for minority
status.

HOWEVER...

We are not talking about minority status for homosexuals.  The OCA
*claims* that that is what we want, but so far, noone in Oregon has
asked for it in a legal sense.  In a couple places, laws have been
passed preventing discrimination based on sexual orientation
(*heterosexual* as well as homosexual), but no place in Oregon, that I
am aware of, has granted legal minority status to homosexuals.

Minority status trigger *lots* of things.  What we want is not to be
discriminated against.  Non-discrimination laws should be allowed the
oportunity to do this.  Measure 9 would prevent this.  The issue isn't
special rights or minority status.  The issue is whether or not the
state of Oregon should remove civil rights guarantees for a select
group of its citizens.

I don't want minority status.  I don't want children being taught that
I choose to be a legal 'abomination' and that they should hate me for
that.  I do not want to be grouped with recognized medical conditions
such as pedophilia when all medical professions recognize that
homosexuality is not a medical condition.  The list of what I don't
want is quite long.

The list of what I want is shorter:

I want to be given the same opporunities to succeed or fail as is given
to every other citizen in the State of Oregon.  I don't hate people
because they are Christian, Muslim, Democrat, Republican or <insert
group label here>.  And they shouldn't hate me because I'm gay. 

Simple concept.

--mark
--
Mark Morrissey           One Hatred to rule them all.  One Hatred to find them.
markm@cse.ogi.edu        One Hatred to bring them all and in the darkness bind
                         them.  In the land of Bigotry where the Shadows lie.


Newsgroups: or.politics,pnw.general
From: robart@agora.rain.com (Robert Barton)
Subject: Re: Perot's (latest) candidacy
Organization: Organization
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 00:12:30 GMT

In article <3663@master.CNA.TEK.COM> mikeq@aspen.CNA.TEK.COM (Mike Quigley) writes:
>In article <1992Sep23.214611.12518@gibdo.engr.washington.edu> bobk@gibdo.engr.washington.edu (Bob) writes:
>
>>  I know what you mean.  But on the other hand, the God-damn Democrats
>>  and Republicans have been fooling us for years.
>
>Are you saying that the American public is stupid enough to allow
>themselves to be fooled year after year?? Hey, I'll go along with that!
>
>Europeans like to describe Americans as like cattle: fat, dumb and herded.
>
>Mike


  Speak for yourself, please.
Xref: sparky or.politics:211 pnw.general:2203
From: trost@romulus.reed.edu (Bill Trost)
Newsgroups: or.politics
Subject: Re: liberal activists
Date: 28 Sep 92 07:22:04 GMT
Article-I.D.: romulus.TROST.92Sep28002158
	<1992Sep24.170034.5375@reed.edu>
	<1992Sep24.200529.20287@leela.cs.orst.edu>
Organization: Reed College

In article <1992Sep24.200529.20287@leela.cs.orst.edu> downsj@atlantis.CS.ORST.EDU (jason downs) writes:
   "as to wether [sic] it will pass or not.. i don't know. it would be
   interesting if it does, as it would add some strength to the
   conservative ideals that i hold in high regard."

What ideals are those?

  * That the government can decide who is "natural" and who is not,
    and then dictate that those individuals get treated as
    second-class citizens?  Why should the dairy farmer, or the
    computer science student, be given the power to determine what
    behavior is "normal"?

  * That high school students should be "protected" from ideas that
    some people find horribly distasteful?  Why is homosexuality a
    "dangerous" idea that must be suppressed, instead of countered
    with rational argument?

   "watching this entire saga unfold is pointing out to me exactly
   what's wrong with this country, and state, and how close it all is
   to falling apart."

You mean, like all these little groups with big egos who think they
should be the ones to determine what everyone is allowed to read, and
who's a real person?  Yeah, that'll drive the nation into a shambles
*real* quick.

   "vote in support of conservative legislation- it's the only way
   this country will survive... liberalism is the path to socialism."

...and, from the sounds of things, conservatism is the path to
medieval feudalism, complete with Inquisitions.

I get so sick of people who can't see any direction but left and
right.  Try looking forward for once!  There are more than two ways to
think!

[I hope I haven't been incoherent with this posting -- this measure 9
nonsense tends to throw me into a wild rage.  I don't want to see my
friends threatened (intellectually or physically) because some bozos
want to inflict their "morals" on everyone.  Now I have to figure out
how to calm down so I can go to sleep...]
--
Bill Trost <trost@reed.edu>   /u/a/trost/.signatures/$sig: No such file or
			      directory
Newsgroups: or.politics
From: batie@agora.rain.com (Alan Batie)
Subject: Re: liberal activists
Organization: Open Communications Forum
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1992 05:54:41 GMT

downsj@atlantis.CS.ORST.EDU (jason downs) writes:
>the problem, it seems, is that there are only two, _extreme_, sides- the
>OCA, and the gay activists

I don't think asking to be allowed to live my life in peace, without having
to worry about being beaten up for showing affection for another man in
public is a particularly extreme position.  I do consider creating a climate
where such violence is encouraged to be quite extreme.  Hate crimes against
lesbians and gay men have increased 22% since the OCA went on their latest
rampage against civil rights, according to the Portland police department.

>i was speaking of the kind of promotion that the OCA doesn't like.

Neither you, nor they, have defined this so called "promotion" very well.
You make it sound like we're trying to convert everyone we can find.  This
sounds more like the religious right than anyone else.  We know better
than to expect that someone can change their orientation, even if for some
weird reason we should want them to.  The OCA calls it "promotion" when
we try to educate people about what we're really like --- they'd rather
people remained ignorant and believed their lies.  They'd prefer that
their gay children committed suicide because they've been told they're
sick and perverted, rather than accept themselves and lead a healthy,
productive life.

These are certainly not *my* idea of "family values".

If any of your reading this think you've never met a homosexual, let me
know.  I'd be happy to go to lunch or dinner with you and give you a face
to go with the label.
-- 
Alan Batie                               \
batie@agora.rain.com                      \       Vote NO on Discrimination
+1 503 452-0960                          / \      Vote NO on 9!
45 28 59 N / 122 43 20 W / 440' MSL     /   \
From: nuffy@intelhf.hf.intel.com (John Hagler)
Newsgroups: or.politics
Subject: Measure 9 Woes
Date: 6 Oct 92 17:04:51 GMT
Article-I.D.: intelhf.1992Oct6.170451.8938
Organization: Development Tools Operation, Intel Corp., Hillsboro  OR


Hey all,

I am a devout Christian. I do not espouse homosexuality. I also do not
espouse hatred. I also oppose measure 9.

While I oppose it in general I do agree with a couple of points. One is I dont believe that homosexuals should be allowed minority status.
I believe that prejudice and hatred should nt be allowed ever. Whether your
gay, strait, black or white. We dont need another affirmitive action group.

Second, I dont think that homosexuality should be taught in the schools as
a correct alternitive. That is a personal morals issue. I dont want my kids 
taught that its ok to become homosexual. If they make that choice then I will
still love them but I dont want preconcieved notions put in their heads

I also think that the Christian view of sexuality nor any other should be taught
. I disagree with measure 9 in that it states that the schools must teach homosexuality is wrong. I dont like the precedence that sets. It means that someday
society could decide my religion is wrong and start teaching against it in schools. I wouldnt like that.
Lets leave the morality teaching to the homes. If you want your kids to explore
homosexuality...you teach them at home...if you want them to practice putting 
on condoms then teach them at home...lets leave the sex ed at school to the
fuctional stuff...you know...if you put this here this comes out and she risks
pregnancy and you both risk disease. Thats the undeniable facts. The rest is/are
peoples personal opinions. Teach your opinions at home.

Back to my first point...
I have been discriminated against for both my religion and wieght/size.
I dont believe it was right but I also dont want to be declared a minority.
I find ways to deal with these problems...and if thay go too far...I will 
seek legal recourse...but I will not become another special interest group. I
want to be judged by my abilities...not my weight, religion or color or sexual 
preference or sex. Lets have it that way for all. That means a homosexual cant
not hire me because Im straight, christian or whatever and I cant not hire him/her because he/she is gay, not christian or whatever. Just my humble opinion.

One thing...the 2 things that most folks who will vote in favor of measure 9
are actually voting for are the prevention of teaching pro-homosexuality in
schools and the prevention of the making homosexuals a minority. This
two things scare people..most people I know that are pro 9 cite these two things
 They fear for themselves and their children...Im not saying they are correct
 but that is just what I see/hear.

-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|Nuffy@hfglobe.intel.com       | "The views expressed here are mine! You cant  |
|                              |  have them! Intel cant have them! They're Mine||------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: daves@cv.hp.com (Dave Serisky)
Newsgroups: or.politics
Subject: Re: liberal activists
Date: 30 Sep 92 16:08:43 GMT
Article-I.D.: hpcvusn.1992Sep30.160843.16081
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Co., Corvallis, OR, USA

In article <1992Sep24.170034.5375@reed.edu>, nelson@reed.edu (Nelson Minar) writes:
|> In article <1992Sep24.151847.13191@intelhf.hf.intel.com> labelle@intelhf.hf.intel.com (George La Belle) hypothesizes:
|> >Take it easy! Mellow out - the vast majority are on your side.
|> 
|> unfortunately, it is not at all clear. The major piece of evidence we
|> have for "sides" in this issue was the vote in 1988 on Measure 8. We
|> lost that one, about 55-45. I haven't seen a good poll for this year's
|> vote, but the few minor things I've heard indicate it's fairly even.
|> 
|> Measure 9 says a lot more than Measure 8 was, and one would hope that
|> people would be less interested in voting for it simply because it is
|> so extremist. But the OCA is better organized, they have more money,
|> they have more support from outside the state, and they control the
|> debate. They are powerful enemies.

My prediction for Measure 9 is that it will receive a *minimum* of 35%
of the vote.  I suspect that it will be more in the 40-45%.  As a
reference point you can use the last OCA measures which got 55% of the
vote in Springfield and 30%(?)  of the vote in Corvallis.  As far as
Oregon voters go, Corvallis is representative of the minority and
Springfield is representative of the majority.  I'm still not confident
that Measure 9 will go down...

-- Dave Serisky
Newsgroups: or.politics
From: dougc@htbawd.rain.com (Doug Carter)
Subject: Re: liberal activists
Summary: Get real!
Organization: Merwin Software Services, Inc.
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1992 04:56:57 GMT

In article <1992Sep30.160843.16081@hpcvusn.cv.hp.com> daves@cv.hp.com (Dave Serisky) writes:
>In article <1992Sep24.170034.5375@reed.edu>, nelson@reed.edu (Nelson Minar) writes:
>|> In article <1992Sep24.151847.13191@intelhf.hf.intel.com> labelle@intelhf.hf.intel.com (George La Belle) hypothesizes:
>|> >Take it easy! Mellow out - the vast majority are on your side.
>|> 
>|> unfortunately, it is not at all clear. The major piece of evidence we
>|> have for "sides" in this issue was the vote in 1988 on Measure 8. We
>|> lost that one, about 55-45. I haven't seen a good poll for this year's
>|> vote, but the few minor things I've heard indicate it's fairly even.
>|> 
>|> Measure 9 says a lot more than Measure 8 was, and one would hope that
>|> people would be less interested in voting for it simply because it is
>|> so extremist. But the OCA is better organized, they have more money,
>|> they have more support from outside the state, and they control the
>|> debate. They are powerful enemies.
>
>My prediction for Measure 9 is that it will receive a *minimum* of 35%
>of the vote.  I suspect that it will be more in the 40-45%.  As a
>reference point you can use the last OCA measures which got 55% of the
>vote in Springfield and 30%(?)  of the vote in Corvallis.  As far as
>Oregon voters go, Corvallis is representative of the minority and
>Springfield is representative of the majority.  I'm still not confident
>that Measure 9 will go down...

Springfield is representative of the majority?!?!?

Get real!

Doug.

Newsgroups: or.politics
From: larryh@cabezon.uucp (Larry Huntley)
Subject: Re: liberal activists
Organization: Logic Modeling Inc of Beaverton Oregon
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 23:11:16 GMT

In article <BvJ7Hx.3B3@agora.rain.com> batie@agora.rain.com (Alan Batie) writes:
>snodgras@lclark.edu (Bil Snodgrass) writes:
>>Yep, several political scientist from U of O and U of P have said that
>>Springfield parallels the Oregon outside the Portland and Eugene metro areas.
>
>I'm no political scientist, but I spent Junior High through 3 years of
>college in LaGrande.  My experience agrees completely with those political
>scientists.

   I'm afraid that I have to agree with Alan, Bil, and the political 
   scientists.  I live in Stayton, near Salem, and work in Beaverton.
   Once you get out of the Portland Metro area, the whole political
   population changes.  One set of politics is at work in the large
   cities and another in the logging/farming/working-man communities.

   They may listen to OPB, KBOO, and KINK here in the city, but down
   in the valley and across the mountains it's KUPL (Country Western)
   and they ain't got time for any of this foolishness...


   Do NOT assume the defeat of Measure Nine to be a done deal!
   This is a very conservative state, and many of the people are bigot-
   ted in many ways.  Portland area people make the mistake of thinking
   that all of Oregon feels like they do, but that is not the case.  I
   actually heard a radio broadcaster gush about what a wonderfully
   "diverse and tolerant community we have here."  Like many others,
   she's deceiving herself, and appears to not be paying much attention.
   10,000 people at Waterfront Park is a lot of folks, but it isn't
   everyone in the state.  How many of that 10,000 were non-voters
   (children, etc?)

   Let's hope and work for the best, people; but let's not assume too
   much.

   (Me?  Well, let's just say I keep my opinions to myself when I'm at
	home....)

	- Larry Huntley (Opposed to Ballot Measure Nine)

-- 
         (larryh@lmc.com)         | She made champagne out of 7-Up and
     Logic Modeling Corporation   |       cheap wine.  A chemist! 
          Beaverton,  OR          |  - "Earth To Doris" [Was (Not Was)]
From: keithl@klic.rain.com (Keith Lofstrom)
Newsgroups: or.politics
Subject: Re: liberal activists
Date: 1 Oct 92 20:51:46 GMT
Article-I.D.: klic.1992Oct1.205146.9676
Organization: Keith Lofstrom Integrated Circuits

In article <BvFB0D.2AE@news.orst.edu> mickel@OES.ORST.EDU (Paul M. Mickel) writes:
>While personally I agree with Measure 9, I do not advocate putting it into 
>the state constitution. I see this as another example of "non-issues" getting
>in the way of dealing with issues that need to be dealt with.......


I imagine you will get flamed for your posting, but I am glad that there is
someone out there who knows how to separate personal preferences from public
law.  Personal differences of opinion can be worked out through discussion,
which I invite you to engage in;  the attempted creation of laws like Measure
9 are a cynical attempt to take this learning process away from you and me.

I am a straight ( and recently married ) man, aquainted with a number of
homosexual males and females.  I look at Measure 9 as a threat to my 
community, and am having a hard time understanding how the measure's
proponents could be so harsh against their fellow citizens.  While I feel
personally, deeply threatened by a government and educational system that
destroys values and attacks good citizens in the name of "diversity", I don't
see how attacking the alleged beneficiaries of these government incursions
is going to stop the incursions.  Instead, I see a government that divides its
citizens against themselves, weakening them to garner more power to itself,
becoming the sole arbiter of disputes and the sole dispenser of largess.

Measure 9 is the result of a government that has grown so powerful that it
can dictate private virtue.  The question of whether it SHOULD dictate is
considered by many as already decided, in the affirmative;  the only question
now appears to be WHAT it will dictate.  It is almost humorous, in a cynical
sort of way, that the weapons created in past decades to promote "correct
progressive thinking" have been taken up by the opposition.  There is an
enemy here, and it is not homosexuality or fundamentalism, but instead the
totalitarian attitude that we have to make a public choice between them.

Voting a resounding NO on Measure 9 is just a first step;  we must follow
up by dismantling the collectivist juggernaught that hauled this piece of 
filth into the public arena in the first place.  There is a vast difference
between civic and private virtues - hopefully people will relearn this.

Keith
-- 
Keith Lofstrom         keithl@klic.rain.com       Voice (503)-520-1993
KLIC --- Keith Lofstrom Integrated Circuits --- "Your Ideas in Silicon"
Design Contracting in Bipolar and CMOS - Analog, Digital, and Power ICs
Newsgroups: or.politics,talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.libertarian
From: robart@agora.rain.com (Robert Barton)
Subject: Re: Measure 9 in Oregon
Organization: Organization
Distribution: na
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 04:18:16 GMT

In article <BvMsCB.L4x@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca> pjohnson@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca (Peter Johnson) writes:
>	To the Oregonians reading this newsgroup, what are you doing to
>oppose Measure 9?


  Measure 9 is severely flawed, because it does not define "homosexuality".
Therefore it is likely to be thrown out because of its obvious vagueness.

Xref: sparky or.politics:218 pnw.general:2230