From: kane@buast7.bu.edu (Hot Young Star)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,ca.politics
Subject: Re: Picking and Choosing our References
Date: 27 Aug 92 15:26:58 GMT
Followup-To: talk.politics.misc
Organization: Astronomy Department, Boston University, Boston, MA, USA

In article <11903@optilink.UUCP> cramer@optilink.UUCP (Clayton Cramer) writes:

>In article <94509@bu.edu>, kane@buast7.bu.edu (Hot Young Star) writes:

>#The Greek words suggest not "homosexual" but
>#"effeminate" or "morally weak or soft" or "cowardly."

>The word in question is "arsenkoitai," [sic] which has the English
>cognates "arse" and "coitus."

Not true at all!!! Can I say that any more strongly???

The word "arsenokoitai" is GREEK. "Arseno-" is a stem which means
"male", and has nothing to do with the British colloquialism "arse"
referring to the hind quarters. "Koitai" literally means "fuckers",
and has absolutely NOTHING to do with the Latin "coitus", which comes
from the stem "co-", "com-" etc ("together") and "itus" ("a going"),
from the verb "ire" ("to go"). It's just coincidence that the Greek
word for those who engage in active intercourse resembles the Latin
(and subsequently English) words for intercourse.

>Exactly what that word means is debatable, as I made clear above.

True. Boswell said exactly that, noting that colloquialism in the Greek
of that era allowed for "arsenokoitai" to mean either "fuckers of men"
or "fuckers who are male", hence the references to male (temple) prosti-
tution.

>But the two examples of its usage in roughly contemporary Greek indicate
>either homosexual prostitute, or pederast.

True, since it was not culturally acceptable for two completely grown
men to engage in sexual relations with each other. So then is not the
word condemning prostitution and child abuse, and not our modern concept
of homosexuality?

>Now here's an example of Brian Kane's lack of honesty.  Romans
>1:26-27 is NOT limited to acts of prostitution, and includes
>homosexuality along with idolatry and other actions clearly
>prohibited.  He can't directly address this passage because it
>is so utterly unambiguous, so he just lies.

No, you apparently AGREE with me that the word translated as "homosexual"
should either read "prostitute" or "pederast".

>#There seems to be little point in arguing with people who believe
>#the earth was created in 4,004 B.C.E.; this doesn't mean that you

>Completely agree.  Fortunately, the two issues are not connected,
>and many Christians recognize that the Earth is at least 4.5 billion
>years old, and still recognize that the Bible teaches that homosexuality
>is wrong.

The issue is clearly whether to consider Scriptural language literally,
or figuratively. At the very least you have to take into account the
differences in culture and language spanning the last 3 thousand years.
We now have enough evidence to know that the chronologies outlined in
the OT cannot possibly be literal. So the Word of God is figurative?

>##Which parts don't support my case?  Homosexuality is no WORSE of
>##a sin than adultery, or murder, or hatred, but it is clearly a
>##sin.  There are no verses that illustrate homosexual relationships
>##in a positive light.

>#Remember:  Jesus himself never married nor had children!  Other
>#parts of the Bible simply can't be forced into the "family values"
>#obsession of the Fundamentalists, for example:

>#The Book of Ruth sensitively portrays bonding and devotion
>#between two women.  Also don't miss Book of Judith for a surprising

>I have strong emotional bonds and devotion with a few men as well.
>That doesn't make me a homosexual.  There is nothing in Ruth that
>implies homosexuality.

Nothing that precludes it either.

>#overturning of male/female roles:  Judith sneaks into the enemy
>#camps, cuts off the head of Holofernes, the leader of the enemy
>#army, returns and receives a hero's welcome, and then lives out the
>#remainder of her days with her maidservants, rejecting all male
>#suitors!

>What does this "male/female roles" issue have to do with homosexuality?

Aside from the fact that the OT is a careful documentation of the subjection
of women, and that homosexuality was considered to be a threat to the
standard power structure where men dominated women, nothing :) :)

And what do you think "lives out the remainder of her days with her maid-
servants, rejecting all male suitors" implies?

>#The "friendship" between David and Jonathan.  The relevant
>#passages:  1 Samuel 18:1-4; 20:3-4, and especially, 20:41 and 2
>#Samuel 1:25-26, quoted here:  "And as soon as the lad had gone,
>#David rose from beside the stone heap and fell on his face to the
>#ground, and bowed three times; and *they* (David and Jonathan)
>#KISSED ONE ANOTHER, and wept with another, until David recovered
>#himself"  (1 Sam. 20:41 New International Version).  Note:  It's
>#really amusing to see the Fundamentalists try to dismiss the obvious
>#passion in this episode!

>Men kiss men all the time in the Middle East today.  That doesn't
>make them homosexuals.

True, it makes them less uptight than us.

>#"(David speaks:)  'Jonathan lies slain... I am distressed for
>#you, my brother Jonathan; very pleasant have you been to me; YOUR
>#LOVE TO ME WAS WONDERFUL, PASSING THE LOVE OF WOMEN'"  (Emphasis
>#added by editor.)  (2 Sam 1:25-26, New International Version).

>It never ceases to amaze me how homosexuals, because their entire
>lives are wrapped up in their crotch, can't understand that there
>are forms of love that are not sexual in nature.

We understand that alright. You think that homosexuality cannot be
more than just sexual love. You have the problem. And what makes you
think the converse is not possible? That two men who love each other
deeply will not have sex with each other?

Brian.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
kane@{buast7,astro}.bu.edu (Hot Young Star) Astronomy Dept, Boston University,
Boston, MA 02215. True personal salvation is achieved by absolute faith in
ones true self.
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