From: hyatt@owlnet.rice.edu (David Waterman Hyatt)
Subject: Re: SRII PhysAds
Keywords: Physical Adept Abilities
Organization: Rice University
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 09:00:34 GMT

Oh, God.  Here I go again.  I'm climbing up on my soapbox now to defend
Andre the Troll.  Is everyone ready?  Good.  And I said I was going to
drop this.  Sigh.  I can't help it.  

Ok, let's go.

In article <21793@ucdavis.ucdavis.edu> acgetche@taco.engr.ucdavis.edu (Adam) writes:
>
>	Here is a description of a Physical Adept in our game:
>
>	Jomyo Meishu (named after monk in Heike Monogatari) uses Tech A,
>Magic B, Attributes C, Skills D, Race E.

Tech A.  Nice.  So he has 50 Force Points and 1,000,000 Nuyen.

>	He buys Force 6 Naginata Weapon Focus (+2 Reach).  He spends remaining
>Force points/cash on Spell Locks that party Combat Shaman uses to Lock 
>Increase Reflexes +3 dice, Increase Will/Int/Quick/Charisma/Reaction +4,
>Combat Sense, Invisibility on Naginata.  The Combat Shaman has also bought


I would not allow the physical adept to spend his own Force Points during
character generation to have another shaman bond spell locks to him.
This seems unfair in the sense that one player would be helping out 
another player during startup.  If you say that he locks the spell locks
on Jomyo AFTER a run or two, then that's cool.  So let's say he did that,
and I'll still run with this.

I also would not allow Invisibility to be cast on an object.

A further note.  I find it amusing that he would bankrupt himself
just buying eminently hosable foci.  Surely he has better things to
spend his money on.

>spell locks for use by himself (Increase Intelligence +4) and a Power focus,
>as well as some fetish foci.
>	Veteran Shadowrun GMs and spellcasters are already nodding their heads
>and wincing.  Jomyo's powers are Astral Perception and +8 Armed Combat dice,

Owww.  You're right about that.  This guy is just a walking bullseye for
any mage, though.  You've really got to consider that.  With all those
spell locks, he can't take them off or he loses the spells.  So once he
has these on, he's just asking to get reamed, with a capital R.  Yes,
this guy is powerful to mundanes, but a mage is just going to laugh and
start his target practice.

Potshots, anyone?


>and his skill include Armed Combat (4) Polearms (6) Naginata (8).  Through
>use of the power foci, fetish foci, Karma Pool rerolls, and the boosted stats
>Jomyo's Combat Pool is 20+.  His initiative is 4D6+10.

Ok, his Combat Pool is 20+.  I assume the Power Focus was used by the
Shaman to augment successes from the Combat Sense spell.  Cool.

>	When Jomyo swings his Naginata, he gets to roll 8+8+6= 22 dice without
>using his Combat Pool.


Agreed.  He gets the 8 for the skill, the 8 for the Improved Ability, and the
6 from the Weapon Focus.


  The damage code in normal space is 10S, in Astral 
>Space around 8M.  Note that in Combat, to stage damage up or down, the NET
>SUCCESSES are used.  Jomyo just needs 2 NET successes to kill Andre the Troll,
>he's gonna get 13-15 without using Combat Pool, Karma Rerolls, or anything.

His Target Number to hit Andre in melee combat is 5.  Using only 22 dice,
that is, not using the dice from his Combat Pool, he will statistically
get 7 to 8 successes out of 22 dice.  Your numbers are way off.
Andre uses a Combat Axe and is a Troll, so his Reach is +3.  You have
a Naginata with a reach of +2.  You are human, so your total reach is +2.
I have an advantage of 1 on you, so my Target Number is 3, and yours
is 5.

If you were to use 8 dice from your Combat Pool, for a grand total of
30 dice, then statistically, you will score 10 successes.  Much better.
Your target number is 5, so 33% of your dice rolled will be successes.
10 or so.

And correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that you could only use
8 dice from your Combat Pool.  That is your base skill rating after all.
That's how I would call it, at least.

Andre's target number is only 3.  He has 9 in Combat Axe and an 8 Combat
Pool.  With 17 dice, he will score 8 or 9 successes.  So as you can see,
this would be a very close confrontation.

 
>Each time Andre attacks, Jomyo's gonna counterstrike with his 13-15 successes.

Again, 13 to 15 is way off, unless I'm missing something.

>	If Jomyo really decides to take off someone's head, he's gonna roll 40
>dice and use rerolls.  Even if Andre's got all the Karma in the world, he's
>not going to generate much more than 18 successes, whereas Jomyo can easily
>rack up 30+.


40 dice?  I thought he only had 22-30.  Where do the other 10 come from?
He has 8 + 8 + 6, as you stated above, plus at most 8 from his Combat
Pool in any one attack.  Where did 40+ dice enter into
the equation anywhere?  Explain.


>	So some mage bops along and decides to take out Jomyo's spell locks.
>Well, as soon as the spell tries to ground into Jomyo's body he's gonna engage
>it in Astral Combat and slaughter it.  Same with the mage.  Check out the
>Interception rules in Melee for the sad truth.  Even if 10 spells try to


What sad truth?  I see a fundamental misunderstanding of grounding.  
Regardless of whether or not he defeats the spell, the SPELL LOCK will
be hosed.  He can prevent it from grounding into himself, but not into
the spell lock.  That is simply an unaugmented Force against Focus Rating
test.  The spell grounded will virtually always win, unless it really
bites, and then the spell lock is hosed, regardless of whether or not
Jomyo prevents it from affecting himself personally.

He may only intercept a spell if he has a delayed action, and in my
opinion would have to be astrally projecting, unless the spell targets
him or his foci.  Remember, you have to have a DELAYED ACTION to intercept
a spell.  

>ground out into spell locks, Jomyo gets 22 dice to counterstrike each spell.
>Plus whatever of his Astral Combat Pool is (un)necessary.

He gets no Astral Combat Pool.  He can't project.  Dual beings continue
to use their normal Combat Pool, because their regular physical 
attributes are used in the astral plane.

>	As Jomyo initiates, it'll get worse.  He'll be able to get enhanced
>Centering, buy some initiative dice, and more Improved Ability dice.  As the

Ok.  Enhanced Centering is an awesome addition.  This would allow him
to take down Andre.  But only this.  Even with your "awesome" adept,
he will generate less successes on the average than Andre without using
his pool, slightly more if he does.  With the use of Enhanced Centering,
you might just be able to win.

>Shaman initiates, he'll be able to Quicken/Anchor more spells on Jomyo, getting
>rid of the pesky Intelligence limit on magic items.  An Anchored Activation/
>Deactivation linked Improved Invisibility spell with 9 successes will make
>Jomyo the stealthiest thing around.  Etc. etc. blah blah blah ....

Sure.  But you're introducing this second character to bolster the
first.  This is a ridiculous argument, because I could just as easily
have Spanky the Wondermage cast/lock/quicken/anchor you name it etc.
and so on Improved Invisibility/Improved Hide Andre the Troll/Improved
Turn Tall Troll Samurais into Whirling Dervishes of Death and Devastation/
Make Andre the Troll into an Engine of Death and Maiming/etc.  Sure. 
Anyone can have their guy augmented with spells.  Fine.
Take away your spell locks.  Take away your shaman.  Look at him then.

A further note.  What is this renowned Physical Adept's Strength?  Unless
it is immense, then it ain't gonna do much against Andre.  He has 13 or
14 Body Dice, a Damage Compensator, a Trauma Dampener, Bone Lacing, and
some other goodies.  He's got plenty of Impact Armor to soften your
blows.  Maybe not.  I don't know what your final Strength is.

At any rate, your math is wrong above, so even with this - IMHO ridiculous
character - you will STILL score a similar number of successes to Andre,
without the use of Enhanced Centering to reduce your reach penalties. 
Even if you do, you can only take your Target Number down to 4.  Andre's
will remain at 3.  He will have the lower Target Number.

You have a damage code of 10S.  Andre has 4 points of Impact Armor.
Let's say you hit with 10 successes.  Andre will get 8 or 9.  So you'll
do a Serious or Deadly wound.  Andre has a Target Number of 6 to resist
your damage.  He has 13 or 14 Body Dice, and he will statistically roll
2 successes.  So he'll take a Moderate or Serious Wound, which with the
Trauma Dampener, will fall down to a Light or Moderate Wound.  At a level
of Light or Moderate, his Damage Compensation will more than cover the
Target Number modifiers.  If he manages to connect with you, then you have
no such luck.  His damage code is 16D.

Moreover, he goes on 4d6 + 14, so he's a little bit faster.

What annoys me the most about this argument is that no PA could walk
around with that ridiculous number of Spell Locks.  Not at all.  Not
unless he can Mask them, and you can't since you aren't an Initiate.

You can't defend your Spell Locks.  They'll get hosed.  They're meat.
You can't rely on them to help you out.
  
Andre will have a very good chance of winning against your adept, even
with your Spell Locks.  End of Story.

Still Defending Old Andre,

(And Look, I love PA's, but I had to correct the math above)

Dave (hyatt@owlnet.rice.edu)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc