From: Iskandar Taib <ntaib@silver.ucs.indiana.edu>
Subject: Re: Napier Sabre engines (fwd)
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 15:36:20 GMT


From Iskandar Taib <ntaib@silver.ucs.indiana.edu>


From Iskandar Taib <ntaib@silver.ucs.indiana.edu>

Here we get into the service problems of the Allison V-1710s in Light-
nings, problems with assembly and modification of Mustangs, possible 
oil company conspiracies.. 

Shows you how important the organization behind the scenes is in any 
armed forces...


jimd@sfu.ca writes:
|ntaib@silver.ucs.indiana.edu writes:
||jimd@sfu.ca writes:

|||The Crecy was ready for production. RR also designed a fighter around
|||it to maximize the use of extractor exhaust Sadly, the lead the Brits
|||had in turbojet design (over US, not germany) got them to a decision
|||on further piston engine R&D work as early as '41 or thereabouts. The
|||decision was to go with the jets. It was the correct decision, but a
|||lot of interesting piston engine stuff was stillborn. This is why the
|||US piston engines developed in WW2 are interesting: they cared little
|||for jets, so continued on. How they caught up is yet another
|||interesting story.
||
||This was in 1941? Wow! 
||
|||The name of Lockheed's chief test pilot during this time escapes me,
|||but his biography mentioned a series of detonation tests hecarried out
|||in P38s. Plan was to establish a stable cruise at various altitudes,
|||then increase the boost on a selected engine until detonation was
|||encountered, then carry on until the engine blew. In many cases, the
|||crankshaft with rods/pistons would be pushed out of the block, out of
|||the nacelle and into space. The object was to study subsequent A/C
|||action, and develop recovery methods. 
||
||Yes, the P-38's Allisons were really prone to blowing up. They had 
||severe problems in Europe, especially with the early models with the
||leading edge intercoolers.
|
|Yes, some microfiche I have of tech reports from 8th AF during this
|time mentions V-1710's breaking con-rods from detonation caused by
|overcooling ((?)?? Some very interesting reading in these records. One
|interesting order from Hap Arnold to the 8th said (paraphrased, a bit)
|God help you if you take sargeants trained and experienced on Allisons
|and put them anywhere else. The sense you get is that they critically
|short of any skilled personnel. One colonels report about the B-17
|spares situation was interesting, he found a lrge building, full of
|spares, but no-one had any partsman experience, so, broken boxes
|everywhere, parts spilled out, etc..as people frantically looked for
|stuff. The best series of reports, though, IMHO concerned B.A.D.A., a
|warbird lovers heaven (place where they assembled planes, made
|campaign changes, etc. etc.) When they finally saw that fighter
|escorts were vital, and that the 51 was the bird they needed (2
|decisions that the air-corps hated) they started converting 51-B's
|with a fuselage fuel tank, even as N-A redesigned for production
|models. The problem was that each 51 took 500 man-hrs to convert, and
|only senior air frame people could do it. Naturally, their were few
|really skilled people around. They were only getting 1-2 mustangs a
|week out of BADA, then this trickle stopped. Much correspondence to
|BADA, but still no mustangs. A colonel was dispatched to fact-find.
|His report mentioned an attitude problem at BADA, and, the air-frame
|people had been reassigned by the Gen. in command at BADA, to C-87
|*I-think the no. is correct* conversions. These were de-militarized
|B-24's modified for transport use, and in this particular case, for
|VIP transport use. Interesting *rapid* response to this report. One
|thing you have to say about the American military, they DID search for
|success, and when they saw what was needed to achieve success, they
|DID it. Compare that to the British tendency to blunder on.
||
||||I've also heard methanol injection being used by the Germans. 
||||
|||Yes, MW50 was most common, but also MW30 was used. Methanol
|||50%/Water50% plus a little antirust. P&W R2800's also used this
|||system, so did the brits on some merlins. One of the first production
|||turbo cars (63 buick special, the same 215 ci V8 the brits still use
|||in almost everything: ranfge rover etc.) used "Olds jet-fire fluid"
|||which you bought for a high price from GM. This allowed a high
|||compression to be used in conjunction with the turbo. I dont have to
|||tell you what this fluid was, do I!
||||So Standard Oil supplied gasoline to both the Germans and the British 
||||during the Battle of Britain? Thats interesting indeed...
|||Most german avgas was made from coal. It was quite corrosive
|||apparently. Remember when, during the first arab oil embargo, it was
|||reported in variuos newspapers that the methods for doing this
|||conversion, although part of Americas war "booty" from germany, were
|||unknown, and the info could not be found, therefor, coal could not be
|||used as a base feedstock for fuel production. (I have no idea how
|||difficult this process is, but I vividly remember this event) Sorry
|||for the digression! 
||
||Aha! I do remember the tales of oil company conspiracies to keep this
||under wraps.. I believe at least one movie was made using this theme..
||Of course its all speculation.
||

|Actually *as far as I know* standard oil did all this at the behest,
|or at least with the knowledge of the US govt. Now, TEXACO, however
|was a different case altogether.

||You know, all this stuff would make some very interesting posts.. the 
||others would be pretty interested I'm sure.
||

|Sure, go ahead and post it! Would love to get input from anyone
|interested on any of these topics. I am trying to avoid learning yety
|another editor, so have refrained from posting so far, so if you would
|like to clean up this info a bit and post it, please do. 

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Iskandar Taib                          | The only thing worse than Peach ala
Internet: NTAIB@SILVER.UCS.INDIANA.EDU |    Frog is Frog ala Peach
Bitnet:   NTAIB@IUBACS                 !
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