HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
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Date:         Thu, 12 Nov 1992 14:10:00 EST
From:         00rjrickly@BSUVAX1.BITNET
Subject:      IRC Invite

Megabuds,

IRC has been dormant for some time now--it's time to revive!  A while
back, Eric mused about paperless classrooms--so why don't we all do
some intense musing about that very topic:  paperless classrooms.  The
conference will be #cw as usual, and though the time change has me
thoroughly confused, let's aim for 9:00 est, which would be 8:00 cst.
I think.  Please join us.  This promises to be a lively discussion.


Becky Rickly
Ball State University
00RJRICKLY@LEO.BSUVC.BSU.EDU
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Date:         Fri, 13 Nov 1992 10:16:52 EST
From:         "(Jim Porter)" <jporter@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Multimedia and hypermedia
              "bwresch@UWSPMAIL.UWSP.EDU" at Nov 13, 92 7:43 am

>I have been bothered for some time by the lack of e-mail and hypertext (and
>other computer references) in technical writing texts.  So....  Next week
>Prentice Hall will be publishing COMMUNICATION TECHNICAL INFORMATION:  A GUIDE
>FOR THE ELECTRONIC AGE.

Congratulations, Bill! I'll be sure to get hold of a copy!  My
sense of the tech writing field is that there has been somewhat
more cognizance of electronic media than in business communication,
but still not nearly enough. It sounds like your book will
address that lapse.

>My humble attempt at a more current text.  I guess
>it's like anything else -- if you don't like what you see, you try to build
>something better.

Ah, yes--but there's so much that needs doing. I'm in a constant state
of turmoil trying to figure out where I should direct my limited
energies.

Jim

--------------------
Jim Porter
Purdue University
jporter@mace.cc.purdue.edu
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Date:         Sat, 7 Nov 1992 15:56:00 EST
Reply-To:     Internet/BITNET Network Trainers <NETTRAIN@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>
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From:         "Hope N. Tillman" <TILLMAN%BABSON.BITNET@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Search for the periodical

ELECTRONIC NETWORKING: RESEARCH, APPLICATIONS AND POLICY is a
quarterly journal published by Meckler (11 Ferry Lane West, Westport,
CT 06880; Internet: meckler@jvnc.net)

The cost is $95/year.

Editor is Charles McClure.

I find it to be a high quality publication.  I just received the
Fall 1992 issue (vol 2, no. 3) dealing with the Commercialization
of the Internet/NREN and it has a number of worthwhile articles.

Hope Tillman, Director of Libraries
Babson College
Babson Park, MA 02157
tillman@babson.bitnet
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Date:         Mon, 9 Nov 1992 08:43:00 CST
From:         SLATIN@UTXVM.BITNET
Subject:      Tools vrs Environment

There are of course multiple environments, interlocking, intersecting; tools
exist within those environments and sometimes alter them.  The computer was a
tool so powerful that it eventually reshaped the environment around itself,
which is why Jay Bolter (in _Turing's Man_, 1984) called it the "defining
technology" of the later 20th century; see also Lyotard's _Postmodern
Condition_ (1979); Shoshana Zuboff's _In the Age of the Smart Machine_ (1988)
remains the best account I know of the way introducing computers into a work
environment transforms that environment.

What I was going to say, however, was that in order for hypertext to have the
kind of impact we've been suggesting in recent postings-- integrative,
multi-disciplinary, environmental-- there needs to be a "material substrate":
i.e., a physical environment of ubiquitous, networked computers.  That network
in turn gives rise to an "information environment" in which hypertext on a
large scale makes enormous good sense.

John Slatin
UT Austin
From: bubba@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU ((Gary Beason))
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Subject: Re: politics
Date: 6 Nov 92 01:30:43 GMT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
              Nov 5, 92 2:26 pm

> If we have to let politics into a list I really enjoy, then I'll have to
> express my cynicism.  How can anyone "love" any modern day politician?
> Maybe Clinton and wife are wonderful and intelligent, but I can't help
> wonder if that perception isn't a product of how they've been marketed.
> Positive and negative perceptions of any of the major candidates are
> questionable (at least I think they are) simply because the candidates
> are packaged and marketed to appeal in certain ways.

On *Late Night w/David Letterman* Sam Donaldson said, "In Dan Quayle,
what you see is what you get.  That's not a well crafted facade meant
to conceal a steel trap mind."



-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_
|
|   Gary Beason
|   Purdue University
|   bubba@mace.cc.purdue.edu
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Date:         Tue, 10 Nov 1992 08:17:04 CST
From:         ellis <nse2@RA.MSSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: stretch and jumbo comp classes

Where are we, in our "stretched" budgets going to find the money to
pay for staffing "remedial" or whatever programs?
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Date:         Sun, 8 Nov 1992 10:09:26 -0600
From:         "(Joe Amato)" <jamato@UX1.CSO.UIUC.EDU>
Subject:      Re: is the end of "the paper" in sight?

Irvin, I can't really speak for Robert Coover or George Landow at Brown (or
anybody else, for that matter), but I know that both are having their
students churn out some wild and interesting stuff...

(If Michael J. is out there, he can fill you in in more detail...)

I've had several student writers submit (Apple HyperCard) stacks to me in
my tech. writing classes, and the stacks have in fact been
metastacks---stacks that, at some level, explore their own technological
constructed-ness.  One writer explored the way in which HyperCard could be
used to construct her family tree---*without* the tree (an interesting
rewriting of cladistics).  Another created a stack that explored the
annotative abilities of stacks---and the text he excerpted from for his
stack was the Star Trek Next Generation Technical Manual, so his work
constituted in fact a commentary on how tech. writing conventions can
resonate across both factual and fictional domains (and, I might add, the
Star Trek Manual works a helluva lot better in cyberspace!).  Yet a third
writer used the stack format to conduct a brief critique of the
gender/power relations of new writing technologies; here, access to and
user friendliness of such technologies actually became a working issue
within the stack.  (Note, btw, that two of these three writers were women.)

Yes, these sorts of issues can be accommodated in print.  But I think it's
fair to say that, by working to situate their experiences through a new
form of composition, each of these writers was able to effect a change in
their response both to emedia and print (which, imho, represents a shift
away from Gutenberg consciousness---but that's another issue).  And to be
more reflexive about what one is up to---hell, that's a good thing, no?

Joe Amato
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Date:         Mon, 9 Nov 1992 15:35:19 -0500
From:         Nick.Carbone@WRITING.UMASS.EDU
Subject: Reply to Re: Dr. Seuss

Mike,

I don't recall any articles specifically, but one place to start might be
with Bruno Bettelheim's _The Uses of Enchantment_.  He argues that Disney
type treatments over simplify the messages of fairy tales and rob them
of their psychological advantages, depriving the child of richer imaginings
and models for making sense of the world.   I don't know that having Cinderella'
s step sisters getting their eyes pecked out by birds after cutting off their
own toes to fit into the slipper would make Disney any less sexist, but B.B.
tends to argue that the older original versions of the tales, being closer to
some sort of mythic/psychological truths are less encumbered with the ethos
and values (such as they are in Disney) of today.
nick.carbone@writing.umass.edu
From: ballardk@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU ((Kim Ballard))
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Subject: Re: Clinton/Gore
Date: 5 Nov 92 22:25:12 GMT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
              92 10:14 pm

Kristen Spengler  writes in an earlier message
>
> I don't know any of you, but I just have to add that anything is better
> than a leader who condemns others for their character yet turns around
> and lies to the American public.  READ MY LIPS...I think we need a change
> and someone who is willing to relate to the younger generartion (or as
> Bush says, "the teeny-boppers").
                                            Kristin Spengler
                                            James Madison University
Kristen,

I don't know you either, but I liked your above sentiment.>
Welcome to the list if this is your first posting.

--
Kim Ballard
Purdue University
ballardk@mace.cc.purdue.edu
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Date:         Tue, 10 Nov 1992 16:17:05 -0500
From:         Nick.Carbone@WRITING.UMASS.EDU
Subject:      Reply to Re: IBM's "Ulysses" version

Wendy--
    Yes, IBM probably did have that "Ulysses" version out to promo it; and it
has its uses.   Bill points out that it got the attention of English teachers
who would be skeptical.  So it has done some good.  I wonder however if the
success it has had in moving skeptics is that it glorifies the proscenium.  My
inclination--prejudice actually--is to always associate skeptics with lecturers
and current-traditional types.  To my mind, unless a student finds or is shown
a way to interact with or write the hypertext--to come to understand its rhetori
c, however that emerges and becomes defined--then using a hypertext that just
tells her things is really more a convenience than a revelation.  It brings
selected elements together for the student, saves them trips to the library.
    But I am an optomist.  While I see that as a danger, I don't see it as
inevitable.  I suppose there will be a progression, led by some who reside
here at MBU who show there students how to use hypertext as authors, readers
who author, and as readers who read.  The progression might go something like
teachers getting certain packages from publishers, and using them in their
classes much like an audio visual resource.  Then may come teacher who author
their own hypertext for their students to read, to supplement their lectures
and discussions.  And then there might be more teachers who teach their students
how to author, and I suppose there will be as time goes on more students who
don't wait for teachers--who bring their reports to school already hypertexted.
     And I know there are teachers who might find the IBM presentation useful
for showing to Dean's and Department Heads, and Grant Giving Groups, letting
them think what they want about what the teacher will do, while the teacher
may know all along that they want to make it available to their students.
      Nick.Carbone@writing.umass.edu
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Date:         Thu, 5 Nov 1992 11:39:11 CDT
From:         Don Langham <DLANGHAM@ENGLISH.AS.UA.EDU>
Subject:      For Bob Whipple only

Sorry to have to send personal mail on the list, but Bob Whipple,
I've sent to whipple@parrot.creighton.edu (the address in the header)
and whipple@creighton.edu (the address in your signature) and neither
message got through.  I have another info request for you.

--Don Langham
  University of Alabama
  DLangham@English.as.ua.edu
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Organization: Samford University Writing Programs
X-Acknowledge-To: <DHROBERT@SAMFORD>
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Date:         Thu, 5 Nov 1992 15:19:50 CST
From:         "David H. Roberts" <DHROBERT@SAMFORD.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Books on Teaching Writing
              5 Nov 1992 11:11:00 CST from <UAHRXN01@ASNUAH.ASN.NET>

For the really serious, I put on reserve in the library the following
two titles:

Young, Becker, and Pike, _Rhetoric: DIscovery and Change_ (HBJ, 1970)


Hartwell, _Open to Language_ (Oxford, 1982)

Both are freshman composition texts more suited to writing pedagogy or
writing theory courses at the grad level than for the originally-intended
level and audience.

   __________________________________________
   David H. Roberts
   Director of University Writing Programs
   Samford University
   Birmingham, AL 35229-2207 USA
   Voice: (205) 870-2964; Fax: (205) 870-2384
   Bitnet:  DHROBERT@SAMFORD
   CIS:     72630,3633
   __________________________________________
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Date:         Wed, 4 Nov 1992 12:52:45 EST
From:         Roni Keane <VKEANE@CCVM.SUNYSB.EDU>
Subject:      For Bill Condon

Bill,
I've been trying to write you and keep getting "address not found". Can you
write me directly so I can write you back? --Roni
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Date:         Thu, 5 Nov 1992 09:47:24 CST
From:         ellis <nse2@RA.MSSTATE.EDU>
Subject:      Re: is the end of "the paper" in sight?

q
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Date:         Mon, 9 Nov 1992 14:55:00 EST
From:         Alan Girelli <GIRELLI@BRANDEIS.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Yankee Trader Needs Info

>Irving, your comments about open admissions and "working class" students
>interests me and I'm listening.  Would you tell me what you mean by
>"working class" students? If you mean "older" students or those who
>are really working their way through college, I would agree.

>What I'm apprehensive about is the kind of student who's academic
>interests have produced say an 8 or 10 on something like the ACT and
>whose hs transcript shows pure mediocrity. Tell me how these students
>suddenly become concerned, interested students.  My experience does
>not support any hope for "magic" in the classroom.

>Nancy Ellis
>nse2@ra.mstate.edu
>Mississippi State Univ

Nancy et al;

My experience greatly DOES support the theory of magic in the classroom for
non-tradional students.  My working class non-trads are non-matriculated
freshman here at Brandeis U in a program called Transitional Year Program
(TYP).  And I've found these student come in with the SAT scores down in the
dirt and transcripts that would indicate they ain't no college homey's (most
are "of color" and my classroom has a rich assortment of skin tones).  The one
common experience my students share is the experience of being thought unworthy
because their language skill are not "mainstream".  And those who stick it out
(there is a high attritrion rate) are very serious of learning the skill that
will make them able to communicate, persuade, debate.  We're about to read
Jerry Farber's once-inflammatory "The Student As Nigger" (or "The Student Is A
Nigger" is some reprints), and I think it will serve to validate my students'
suspicions that they aren't the first folks to think empowerment in a classroom
was a pretty strong idea.  I'll see how they respond to Farber's essay when I
point out his assertion that the student has the responsibility to invest in
his/her own education.  I suspect the implications of that assertion are going
to shock them a lot less than it has shocked traditional, college-material
freshman with whom I've studied the essay in the past.

ALAN GIRELLI
Brandeis University
Bitnet: girelli@brandeis
Internet: girelli@binah.cc.brandeis.edu
AppleLink: U0181
Phone:  (617) 736-4592

P.S.  I wonder what John Burt, who until recently directed our mandatory
for-credit freshman comp program here at Brandeis, and who inherited the
products of my past TYP courses, might have to add to this message of mine.
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Date:         Thu, 12 Nov 1992 01:13:39 CST
From:         Eric Crump <C509379@MIZZOU1.BITNET>
Subject:      wouldn't an irc session be good right about now?

Fred said a couple of days ago that the good stuff was flowing
so fast and free that it was hard to keep up. Ditto. I've
been too swamped to jump in, but there's a lot more to say
on the subjects swirling and twining here: the (eventual)
end of "the paper," the new shape hypertext is giving to rhetoric,
the value hypertext may have for students, the politics of lurking,
and so on.

I think it would be fun to rake those threads into a pile on an
irc channel and just take a running jump into the middle. Jumping
into piles may be a hardwired human characteristic, I now believe.
A couple of weeks ago we made a pile of leaves in our backyard
and our 2-yr-old, who to our knowledge had never encountered a
pile of leaves before, without hesitation did a laughing belly flop
into the middle of it. Why not we do the same?

The usual time & place: channel #cw at 9 p.m. CST.

The more the absolute merrier.

--Eric Crump

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= IRC IS... (delete now if you already know) =-=-=-=-=
INTERNET RELAY CHAT, a program that allows synchronous communication
over the internet through a client (or telnet to client) and server
system. Anyone with access to the Internet can probably gain access
to IRC conversations, either through a local client program or by
using telnet to reach a remote client.

At any given time, there are hundreds of people from all over the
world using IRC to talk. The system has been compared to CB radio
or electronic graffiti, but it can be used to sustain scholarly
discussions as well as frivolous chatter.

For more information on how to get access to and use IRC, send a
note to me at C509379@mizzou1.bitnet or C509379@mizzou1.misssouri.edu
and I'll forward a couple of helpfiles I have.

Transcripts of IRC sessions conducted over the past couple of
months by members of MBU are available on David Sewell's fileserver.
To see what is available, send mail to DSEW@TROI.CC.ROCHESTER.EDU
with SENDME INDEX in the subject line, no msg body necessary.
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Date:         Wed, 4 Nov 1992 15:42:04 CDT
From:         Don Langham <DLANGHAM@ENGLISH.AS.UA.EDU>
Subject:      Foreign languages?

Sorry if this seems off the wall, but I need to know something.  Do
any of my fellow MBUers know anything about how foreign language
departments are incorporating computers into their instructional
programs?  Any info, especially journal articles/book titles, will be
greatly appreciated.

Meanwhile, off to the library. . . .

--Don Langham
  University of Alabama
  DLangham@English.as.ua.edu
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Date:         Tue, 10 Nov 1992 21:20:35 CST
From:         Irvin Peckham <peckham@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Multimedia and hypermedia
              92 9:52 am

> presentation.  Although he turned in the print version, I had to take his
> computer to school in order to present it properly. He has had his Mac six
> months.
> This is not a futuristic fantasy.  This is now.  The nature of rhetoric and
> composition has already changed.  We are going to need to deal with
> audiovisual argumentation, multimedia expression, hypertext, and electronic
> communication and we will have to teach students the languages of images,
> video, sound, and text as they interact in new and surprising ways.  What a
> world!
> Peg Syverson, msyverso@ucsd.edu
> Dimensions of Culture, 0525, UCSD, La Jolla, CA 92093
> (619) 558-1514
>
Peg:
I hadn't read your description of Ben's project when I sent my last
message (I have figured out how to have my mail reader sort by
subject, but it still insists on subsorting from the latest to
earliest sent).  From what you have learned through Ben and I
have learned from of my students, they'll be teaching us.  i
suppose those of us who resist new knowledge and thus retain our
privilege will continue to insist on the primacy of linear text.
Irv
Looking forward to see you all in the spring.

--
Irvin Peckham
Internet: peckham@unomaha.edu
From: NKAPLAN@UTDALLAS.BITNET
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Subject: Re: is the end of "the paper" in sight?
Date: 9 Nov 92 17:40:50 GMT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Warning: Unauthenticated sender

> I've never used hypertext in class (and I've barely used it myself), but I'm
>fascinated by the possibilities, and I too wonder how my students (college
 ESL
>at the lowest level and also right before moving into freshman comp) would
>react to it.  Some of my students are highly literate in their native languages
>and would, presumably, deal with it in the same way we linearly trained
>teachers do (though with some added confusion from operating in another
>language), but what of those others who are still in the beginning stages of
>learning how to navigate their way through static, linear text?  Would hyper-
>space movement feel more natural to them?  Would it interfere with their
>ability to acquire "traditional" literacy?  I don't know, but it's a
>fascinating area to explore.      --Alicia Conklin

I recommend that you read Michael Joyce's article "Siren Shapes:
Exploratory and Constructive Hypertexts" (Academic Computing, November
1988) to get some sense of how hypertextual writing works with students
(among other important things).  The journal is defunct, but if you can't
find the article, mebbe Michael can send you a text electronically.

Nancy Kaplan
University of Texas at Dallas
Box 830688
Richardson, TX  75083-0688

(214) 690-2071
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Date:         Fri, 6 Nov 1992 10:46:15 EST
From:         "Alicia Conklin, CCNY" <ALCCC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: is the end of "the paper" in sight?
              5 Nov 1992 16:58:42 CST from <peckham@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>

On Thu, 5 Nov 1992 16:58:42 CST Irvin Peckham said about hypertext:

>                       I would like to know how you turn
>this kind of instruction to the benefit of students who
>will be asked to write discursively.  How is hypertext entering
>(or how will it enter) into our students' lives?  Will it
>enter differently for studnets in working class universities
>verses students in upper tier universities?

 I've never used hypertext in class (and I've barely used it myself), but I'm
fascinated by the possibilities, and I too wonder how my students (college ESL
at the lowest level and also right before moving into freshman comp) would
react to it.  Some of my students are highly literate in their native languages
and would, presumably, deal with it in the same way we linearly trained
teachers do (though with some added confusion from operating in another
language), but what of those others who are still in the beginning stages of
learning how to navigate their way through static, linear text?  Would hyper-
space movement feel more natural to them?  Would it interfere with their
ability to acquire "traditional" literacy?  I don't know, but it's a
fascinating area to explore.      --Alicia Conklin
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