From: khaikin@cis.ohio-state.edu (dmitry khaikin)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Torah is the center of every Jew? (was Orthadox Judaism and women)
Date: 24 Jan 1993 02:20:07 -0500
Organization: The Ohio State University Dept. of Computer and Info. Science
NNTP-Posting-Host: boa.cis.ohio-state.edu

In article <FAIGIN.93Jan22110052@soldan.aero.org> faigin@aero.org (Daniel P. Faigin) writes:
>
>Secondly, you say "your laws". Reform does not impose new laws, nor does it
>have a set of laws that is exclusively Reform. The basic record of divine
>ispiration is the Torah -- and that is true for both Reform and Orthodoxy.

Well, that is what I find contradicting when say things like that... You
believe in changing parts of Torah and I don't. It is not the same. I
have asked you many times about things that R. completely ignore in
Torah and you said that it is because you believe that that portion was
for that time and not for ours. I am confused now. Which concept are you
following? 

>Reform has its interpretation of Torah guideance, just as Orthodox has its
>interpretation. These are simply that: interpretations. Not laws.
>
>> That explaination is not enough for me. 
>
>I believe that no explanation will be "enough" for you, given a fundamentally
>different axiom set.
>

See, again. You just said that our axiom set is the same and here you
say that our axiom set is different. Our axiom set is Torah. So, which
definition are you following? Can you explian at least that? I am not
asking you to be a Rabbi, I am just asking you to explain something you
so strongly believe in.

>> I respect your right to
>> choose, but I never said that I do or will respect your choice. 
>
>Did I ever ask you to?
>

No, but actually was not for you, but more for those people that as soon
as I start argueing the Reform movement they start saying that I am an
ignorant, blind, closed minded,..... You get the picture... Actually,
you saw and see the picture.

>>>According to my wife, [...]
>
>> That remains to be proven! [...]
>
>I'll bring your posting home, and let my wife work up a response.
>

Ok, but all that she said is just a personal experience not based on
anything, but on her feelings. That does not qualify as proof. Actually,
I think that what she wrote was really out of line, but I don't dare
even talk about it, because then I will be up to here in the flames from
people who really don't know a thing about Judaism. It is one of the
stereotypes here, on the net: if you are Orthodox you can't say anything
bad about Reform (that is if you want to survive -:)), but if you are
Reform, then you can basically say anything about Orhtodox.
One thing that I do want to point out is that I do appriciate your
arguments, not flames. Some people have a very big problem between the
two. Well, some people think that *I* have that problem, but most of
them are just angry at me... -:)

>> So, in other words, a woman should study only those part
>> of Torah that are relevant to the mitzvot she is commanded to keep. 
>
>In other words, traditional Judaism makes a arbitrary distinction between the
>sexist, and is thereforce, sexist.
>

Yes, that is right. I agree here. If you define any distinction to be
sexist then yes, I am extremely sexist. But like Don mentioned before,
it is absurd and he did give very good examples. You said that you never
said you were not completely sexist... Well, are you trying to be? When
using Don's examples it looks pretty funny. Do you see what I am talking
about here? It is a straight contradiction here... What do you think?

>You instruct those not familiar with Orthodoxy to consult the Torah, as
>opposed to the net; yet for Reform, you depend on a layman's knowledge.
>Consult the sources and learn of what you speak.

I thought that you just said that Torah was something that is the base
of R. and Or. at the same time? Then what is wrong with consulting it?
Are the things that were written by Reform people (maybe even Rabbis)
more important and valid that Torah?

>
>> Does not this just say everything? R. and Con. are up, Judaism is down.
>> Although, this is probably true, this certainly does not show the
>> Roformism and Conservatism are doing the right thing.
>
>Since "right" is a subjective judgement, it doesn't say they're doing the
>wrong thing either.

Yes, but look at your own statistics! Does this mean anything? We both
agree that remaining Jewish is very important, no matter what movement
you are in, right? So, if the more people become R. and C. make the
Judaism go down then what does that say to you?



Thanks,
Dima
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  "A word is worth one coin; silence is worth two."_____ The Talmud.
  "Silence is good everywhere, except in connection with Torah."____ The Zohar.
  khaikin@cis.ohio-state.edu  ( Dmitry Khaikin, Columbus Ohio )
-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  "A word is worth one coin; silence is worth two."_____ The Talmud.
  "Silence is good everywhere, except in connection with Torah."____ The Zohar.
  khaikin@cis.ohio-state.edu  ( Dmitry Khaikin, Columbus Ohio )