From: pechever@phakt.usc.edu (Paul Echeverri)
Newsgroups: alt.callahans
Subject: Re: Science and god:  Are they incompatible?  If so, why?
Date: 15 Nov 1992 20:45:41 -0800
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: phakt.usc.edu

Impu-Sebek looks up from his mental rapport with Shonias Q'Tari as he senses
amusing conversation coming.

In article <1e6j38INN951@gap.caltech.edu] lydick@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU writes:
]In article <RANDOLPH.92Nov15125813@cognito.ebay.Sun.COM],
]randolph@cognito.ebay.Sun.COM (Randolph Fritz) writes:
]
]-]"Scientists constantly change their rules for the universe
]
]No, they don't.  Scientists certainly do not to claim that they make the laws
]of the universe, nor that their theories are perfect models of the universe. 
]To call scientific theories "the rules for the universe" is to turn science
]into a religion, something few scientists would welcome.  Scientists DO update
]their MODELS of the universe as they collect new data.  That is *NOT* the same
]as changing the rules.  As someone (I can't remember who, can someone tell me?)
]put it quite aptly:  The map is NOT the territory.  Scientific theories are NOT
]the laws of the universe.  They're our current best approximations to those
]laws.

"Speaker, you're letting your Kzin blood get the better of you...we seem to
have a semantics mixup here (my specialty ;).  A scientist has a model; those
are the 'rules of the universe' as sie conceives them.  They may of course be
updated; that's only sensible. Essentially, what I believe Randolph meant was
'Scientists constantly change their [conception (tacitly implied)] of the rules
for [of is probably a better choice] the universe.  As for the rules being
immutable, see below...I'm firmly on the fence there. 
"Randolph, would you agree that's basically what you meant?"
"Speaker, would you agree that if that is what Randolph meant, this particular
disagreement you have with him would'nt apply?"

]Or are you claiming that the speed of light was once infinite, but has since
]been reduced to its current value?  The idea that human belief systems
]determine objective reality is an amusing one, and has been used as the basis
]for at least one science fictional short story.  But I doubt you'll find any
]scientists who believe that to be true (some psychologists and philosophers on
]the other hand, seem quite willing to make that argument).

"An entire novel, actually--Heinlein's _Number of the Beast_.  Fictons are
out there, folks.  And as for scientists believing or not in fictons: the 
concept hardly applies to science, it has no contact with it, much like
religion; fictons are irrelevant to science, neither hindering nor helping.
Objective reality, now: THAT's an amusing concept."
He grins fiendishly as he strums a quick riff on his baliset, and becomes
so absorbed in his playing that he misses the next several sentences.

[deletia]

]there have been MANY claims both of paranormal abilities and miracles; neither
]have held up under close scrutiny, to the best of my knowledge.

"Well, Speaker...some would say that 'faith' and 'vibes' do affect the matter;
while that certainly makes proof hell, that's what the concept of faith is all
about."
He shrugs noncommittally as Mike delivers a hot spiced rum and takes away 
another silver chain.
"Not that it's that serious.  I believe in magic(k) every other week, am
agnostick on the others, and devote leap years to solipsism.  Any religious
belief that a person can't bear to have laughed at is a religious belief that
person had better drop quickly. Or, to put it succintly, the only blasphemy
is the concept of blasphemy itself."
Impu-Sebek gasps at how far he's gotten from the topic, and gulps his rum down
hastily, burning himself in the process.  He quickly throws the glass into
the fireplace and slaps a chain on the table, bellowing for lemonade.

[deletia]

-- 
"They robbed from the rich...and gave to the CRIMINALLY INSANE!!" -Ren & Stimpy
"Necro-Bestial Anal Buttsex!?" -GWAR  /   Two suns in the sunset... -Pink Floyd
"She was SO sensitive...so I squicked her."                    DikuMUDs forever
Stop the War on Rights...legalize drugs           Email: pechever@chaph.usc.edu
Organization: Sophomore, Mechanical Engineering, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA