From: rmk@rmkhome.UUCP (Rick Kelly)
Organization: The Man With Ten Cats
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1993 05:13:54 GMT
Reply-To: rmkhome!rmk@merk.com (Rick Kelly)

In article <ATAYLOR.93Jan7135421@gauss.nmsu.edu> ataylor@nmsu.edu (Nosy) writes:
><In article <9301061155.03@rmkhome.UUCP> rmk@rmkhome.UUCP (Rick Kelly) writes:
><   In article <ATAYLOR.93Jan5134603@gauss.nmsu.edu> ataylor@nmsu.edu (Nosy) writes:
>
><   ><   I believe there is some benefit in determining if a person is
><   >,   psychologically able to take on the responsibility of owning
>,   ><   a handgun.
><   >
>,   >	Then why isn't Kelly also demanding licensing for cars;
><   >	automobiles are used to cause more deaths than firearms
><   >	every year.<
>
><   I don't know about the laws where you live but cars and drivers here are
><   licensed/registered, and cars get a title search before the registration
><   is granted.
>
>	And do they also determine if a person is "psychologically
>	able to take on the responsibility of owning a car"? 
>
>	If not, why not?

Probably because the primary purpose od automobiles is transportation, not
defense.

><   ><   >>I maintain that I wouldn't want to live in a state like that, as it
><   ><   >>would rapidly turn into a scenario like Beirut.
><   ><   >
><   ><   >Yet, the states where one can just walk in and buy a gun don't have
><   ><   >much crime - they're less like Beirut* than Boston is.  If guns are
><   ><   >the problem, how come the problems are where the guns aren't?
><   >
><   ><   Most of the gunshots that are fired in Boston are crack dealers
><   ><   shooting at other crack dealers.
><   >
><   >	Said crack dealers do not obtain their firearms through
><   >	legal channels, now do they?
>
><   The point is, for the city of Boston, if you ignore the crack dealers
><   shooting at other crack dealers, then the number of actual violent crimes
><   involving guns drops considerably.
>	<
><   If you take the town of Framingham, population 65000, where I live, and
><   where crack and heroin dealers also trade, then you might conclude that
><   there is basically no violent crime involving guns.
>
>	Then what problem is Kelly trying to solve with his desire
>	for more gun laws? Since the crack dealers don't buy their
>	guns at gun stores, running gun stores out of business won't
>	affect the gunfighter crack dealers, right?

I have never said anything about more gun laws.  

><   ><   >We happen to know that criminals don't acquire guns at gun stores.
><   ><   >(It's easy enough to do the relevant research.)  Therefore, controls
><   ><   >on stores are, at best, like looking for your keys under a street
><   ><   >light when you know that you lost them somewhere else.  Sure the light
><   ><   >is good there, but you're wasting your time.
> 
>	Oh, look, that's already been pointed out to Kelly before,
>	by Freeman.
>
><   ><   >We can't win a gun war any more than we can win a drug war.  How many
><   ><   >people should we jail to satisfy Kelly's bigotry?  (BTW - He's also
><   ><   >misstated the way MA's gun laws work for honest law-abiding people.)
><   >
><   ><   Apparently, the appeal process has changed over the last decade.  It's
><   ><   been a long time since anyone I know had to go through it.
><   >
><   ><   You seem to imply that if EVERYONE had a gun, there would be no crime
><   ><   and no shots fired.
><   >
><   >	Hardly. On the other hand, those states with so-called "lax"
><   >	gun laws *DO* have less violent crime than such garden spots
><   >	as Washington, DC, New York, Chicago and so forth.
>
><   Compare population density.
>
>	Ok, let's do so. Texas has "lax" laws by the standards of
>	the abovementioned cities, yet has a lower murder rate.
>	Houston is the 4th largest city in the country, yet it
>	has a lower murder rate than DC. DC's population is 600,000
>	or less; El Paso, Texas is almost that big and El Paso's 
>	murder rate is less than the national average.
>
>	In fact, Los Angeles has a lower murder rate than Chicago,
>	yet is a larger city.
>
>	Try again, Kelly.

Don't LA and Chicago have extremely stiff gun laws?

><   ><   And, of course, untrained idiots who bought a gun at K-Mart would never
><   ><   hurt themselves or anyone else by mistake.
><   >
><   >	Can Kelly show where anyone asserted this?
>
><   Huh?  Are you saying that people are born with the genetic talent to use
><   guns in a safe manner?
>
>	Kelly's reading skills are a bit low. Can Kelly show where
>	*anyone* on this newsgroup has asserted that no firearms
>	accidents happen? 
>
>	I doubt it.
>
>	But I note the elitism and implied racism in Kelly's
>	remarks about "untrained idiots who bought a gun at K-Mart";
>	sorry, Kelly, even poor folks with the "wrong" skin color
>	have the right to self defence.

This sounds like some feeling that you have about K-Mart shoppers.

><   ><   And your belief that no one legally buys a gun and then does something
><   ><   illegal with it is ridiculous.
><   >
><   >	The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, Department of
><   >	the Treasury, surveyed about 900 convicted felons.
><   >	Over 90% of them stated they obtained their firearms from
><   >	a source OTHER than a licensed dealer.
>
><   Of that 90%, how many of them already had a record when they bought
><   illegal firearms?
>
>	Who cares? The point is, criminals don't get their guns
>	from licensed dealers, so making it more difficult for
>	non-criminals to get guns from those dealers won't affect
>	the criminals.
>
>	That's because criminals are people that don't obey the
>	law, not even Bartley Fox-type laws.
>
>	Surprise, surprise.
>
><   ><  Read a newspaper.
><   >
><   >	One of those publications that use such terms as
><   >	"automatic revolver", "Semi-automatic assault rifle",
><   >	"saturday night special"? One of *those* paragons
><   >	of factual accuracy?
><   ><
><   >
><   >	If Kelly can point to a newspaper that doesn't sensationalize
><   >	any story having to do with firearms, I'll try reading it.
>
><   If reported cases of gun violence are all sensationalized nonsense, then
><   I guess no one needs guns.
>
>	Yawn. Kelly doesn't know much about this subject, but he's
>	not willing to learn, either. 
>
>	What's his point?

So where do you get your information from?

-- 

Rick Kelly    rmkhome!rmk@merk.com    merk!rmkhome!rmk    rmk@frog.UUCP
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns