Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Tue, 6 Oct 1992 13:58:23 EDT
From:         JEK@NIHCU.BITNET
Subject:      on being a Christian from infancy

In response to a posting by J Douglas "Oscar" Works, I offer a
dialog:

BROWN: I am worried about Black. He says that he has been a
Christian ever since he was baptized as an infant.

GREEN: Why does this worry you?

B: It means that he has never had a conversion experience. I must
conclude that he is no Christian at all, and is going to hell.

G: Not a Christian at all because he says that he has been one all
his life?  You are moving too fast for me.

B: Jesus said (John 3:3): "Unless a man be born again, he cannot see
the Kingdom of God." Black has never had a conversion experience,
therefore he has not been born again, therefore he is not saved.

G: Have you used this argument on him?

B: Yes, I have. He says that Jesus was talking about baptism, and
that he has been baptized.

G: This is how the majority of Christians have understood John 3
down through the centuries. Before assuming that he is wrong, you
might take a look at the Essay BORN OFWATER in the CHRISTIA Library.
To obtain a copy, send the message GET BORN OFWATER to
LISTSERV@ASUACAD. It is a superb piece of writing, and my admiration
for the author knows no bounds.

B: Does Jesus tell us in so many words that "born again" refers to
being baptized?

G: Does He tell us in so many words that it refers to the sort of
experience that you have in mind when you speak of a conversion
experience?

B: But surely being a Christian means having been saved from one's
previous condition of sinfulness and rebellion. The Scriptures say
that all men have sinned and come short of the glory of God. All we
like sheep have gone astray.  Black is saying that he has not gone
astray, that he has always been a faithful sheep. He is denying that
Jesus had to seek him out and bring him back to the fold. What his
position amounts to is denying that he has ever sinned. He is saying
that he doesn't need a Saviour.

G: Tell me, please, how long have you been a Christian?

B: For three years now. Before then, I was a rowdy lot, caring only
for fun and games, carousing my life away. But then some friends of
mine invited me to some Christian meetings, and the Spirit convicted
me, and I got down on my knees with one of my friends, and asked
Jesus into my heart, and since then I have been a Christian.

G: You say that that was three years ago. Have you sinned at all
since then?

B: Yes, certainly. I have stumbled on the path, but the Lord has
upheld me.  Whenever I have done wrong, the Spirit has convicted me
of my sin, and led me to repent and amend my ways and ask
forgiveness.

G: So, then, you said that you have been a Christian for three
years, but have sinned during that time. Let us assume that your
most recent sin was six months ago. Instead of saying that you have
been a Christian for three years, perhaps it would be more accurate
to say that you became a Christian three years ago, and that since
then you have several times ceased to be one, and have then become
one again, and that you have now been one for almost six months.

B: No, I think that my sins are to be repented of, but I don't think
that they made me not a Christian, evern temporarily. If I had
deliberately decided to turn my back on Christ, then you would have
a point. I think there are two kinds of sins. One is a repudiation
of God and an enthronement of self. The second kind is a forgetting
of God in the presence of self. The proud thought, the lustful
glance, the forgotten promise, the harsh word, are normally sins of
the second kind. They are sins, and it is our obligation to seek to
avoid them, and our further obligation to repent of them when we
have committed them, but they do not mean that we have ceased to be
Christians. So I think that I have been a Christian for three years
without interruption -- an imperfect Christian, a poor, weak,
stumbling Christian, but still a child of God.

G: Very well, let us go along with your distinction between two
kinds of sin.  It is customary to call them mortal sins and venial
sins. You say that you have committed only venial sins since your
conversion three years ago, and I will take your word for it. But do
you believe that God forgives your venial sins through the saving
action of Jesus Christ at Calvary, or do you consider that He simply
overlooks them as not worth fussing about.

B: God is absolutely holy. He does not say of any sin that it is too
small to count. My sins are not ignored. They are washed away by the
Blood of the Lamb.

G: Then you did not stop needing a Saviour after you were converted.
You have continued to need a Saviour right up to the present.

B: No argument there.

G: So, let us suppose that Black was baptized as an infant, and was
brought up to believe in Jesus Christ as Lord, God, and Savior. He
has always believed this. He has committed venial sins, and has
repented of them, and has asked God for forgiveness through Jesus
Christ. He has sinned, and he needs a Saviour. But he has never at
any time since his baptism ceased to be a child of God. Do you have
a problem with this? If so, what?

B: But you cannot have Jesus as your Lord unless you have accepted
Him as Lord.  And that means that there must have been a time when
you did accept Him. Mine was three years ago. When was Black's?

G: Tell me, please, are you a loyal citizen of your country? Do you
love your country? And, while we are at it, do you love your mother?

B: Yes, to both questions.

G: And how old were you when you decided to stop hating them and to
start loving them instead?

B: What kind of a question is that? I have loved my parents as far
back as I can remember. That does not mean that I have always been a
perfect son. There have been times when I slacked off on my
household chores, when I sulked because I thought some of their
restrictions on me unreasonable. But I never had a time when I
didn't want to be part of the family, never a time when I didn't
know that they were the best friends I had.

G: Fine. Some young persons do quarrel with their parents, to the
extent of not wanting the family ties, and only later, or never, are
reconciled with their parents. I am not saying that this is always
entirely or even chiefly the fault of the offspring. But my point is
that this does not always happen. Some persons get along well with
their parents from birth, and cannot answer the question, "When did
you decide that your parents are not such bad guys after all?" Some
persons have had an unabashed affection for their countries from an
early age, and have no memory of making a decision to do so. I see
no reason to suppose that accepting Jesus as Lord has to be
different. Now you had a conversion experience at college. I also
had one at college. It was the major turning point of my life. But I
do not take this as proof that everyone has to have one. If you have
posiitive evidence that Black was not a Christian at the age of
fourteen, then you may properly disbelieve his claim to have been a
Christian from birth. But otherwise, I think you ought to accept it.

B: Can you give me any Biblical grounds for supposing that some
persons are Christians from infancy?

G: Can you give me Biblical grounds for supposing that none are?

B: I asked you first.

G: Consider John the Baptist. The angel Gabriel said of him:  "He
will be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother's womb."
(Luke 1:15) Is it possible to be filled with the Holy Spirit, and
yet be in an unsaved condition? If not, then one must suppose that
if someone had asked John the Baptist, "How long have you been a
Christian? How long have you been in the grace of God? How long have
you accepted Jesus as you Lord and Savior?" he would have answered,
"Since infancy -- from my mother's womb. (Luke 1:41-44) I cannot
remember a time when I was estranged from God." This does not mean
that John never sinned, still less that he did not need Jesus as his
Saviour. It means that his whole life was as you say that yours has
been for the last three years, a life lived as a forgiven sinner,
accepted of God, still imperfect, still stumbling, but nevertheless
living in grace.

 Yours,
 James Kiefer
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