HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ohrd!rdowlati@cs.toronto.edu (Ramin Dowlati)
Subject: Re: Canada's voice in Bosnia Conflict (General Lewis MacKenzie)
Organization: Ontario Hydro - Research Division
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 92 17:34:44 GMT

In article <1992Aug31.140137.24851@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca> golchowy@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca (Gerald Olchowy) writes:
>
>The UN troops in Sarajevio have little more than machine guns...I'd 
>like to see you volunteer to race up mountains to take out artillery
>positions with little more than a machine gun.  The UN troops in
>Sarajevo are essentially unarmed...they could be captured relatively
>easily by either side.  The purpose of the UN force in Sarajevo was
>to open up the airport to bring in relief supplies so fewer people
>would die...not to stop the war, or to take sides in the war.
>
I guess this means that machine guns are sufficient for keeping the
airport open while it's being shelled by mortars and cannons?

-Cheers

Xref: sparky soc.culture.yugoslavia:8441 soc.culture.greek:8367 soc.culture.europe:8041 eunet.politics:1189 talk.politics.misc:43348 talk.politics.theory:3980 soc.culture.bulgaria:1314 soc.culture.turkish:9624
From: rika@informix.com (Rika Tsitsinia)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,eunet.politics,talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.theory,soc.culture.bulgaria,soc.culture.turkish
Subject: Re: The New Greek Phobia (phobos): [ Part 2 from 5 ]
Date: 2 Sep 92 19:06:47 GMT
Organization: Informix Software, Inc.

In article <BtwM9I.EB6@apollo.hp.com> nelson_p@apollo.hp.com (Peter Nelson) writes:
>  All of this is completely immaterial.   The only relevant question
>  is this:  If a nontrivial number of people (i.e., "nation sized"
>  whatever that means, but let's say a million or so since there 
>  are other countries with such populations) in some locale feel
>  that they represent a distinct enough culture to want to form
>  their own nation, why shouldn't they have the right to do so?
>  And why shouldn't they have the right to call it whatever they
>  want?
> 
>  If the people in Macedonia/Skopjie (or the people in Quebec or
>  Scotland or Vermont) want to be independent why shouldn't they 
>  have that right?
>
	Whoever denies them that right? You think Greece or the EC
    or the USA does not want Skopje to be independent? This is a
    misconception. Actually Greece very much wants the little
    country to be independent and democratic and not gobbled up
    by any neighbours.

	Greece or the EC or the USA cannot tell them what they can
    call themselves: that is their own prerogative. But the name by
    which they will be recognized in the international community is
    another matter. This is where Greece protests and the EC and
    the USA (and most other countries) agree. The Skopjians have
    to show respect to their future neighbours, by not usurping
    and monopolizing a culture/history/name/symbols which are not
    theirs or theirs only.

>  Why would any rational person or nation WANT to rule some group
>  of people who don't want to be ruled by them?   Not only is it 
>  mean-spirited, but it's generally more trouble than it's worth.  
>
	Greece does not want to rule over Skopjie. I don't think
    even Skopjians believe this.

>---peter

	Georgios
Xref: sparky soc.culture.yugoslavia:8320 soc.culture.europe:7892 soc.culture.turkish:9489
From: nelson_p@apollo.hp.com (Peter Nelson)
Subject: Re: Time to Get Rid of the Nation-State? (was:  Re: THE NEW BULLY OF THE BALKANS [ Part 4 from 4 ])
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 21:10:29 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Corporation, Chelmsford, MA

In article <1992Sep2.170113.24965@panix.com> gcf@panix.com (Gordon Fitch) writes:

>As it appears that we are not ready for anarchy yet, and must
>have some form of government, how about utilizing the United
>Nations to take over some of the work? Surely Bosnia, Somalia,
>Afghanistan and Cambodia would be better off under a neutral 
>U.N. administration of military and police functions than they
>are subjected to competing warlords and religious fanatics.

  As I indicated in an earlier posting, I'm currently reading
  an excellent book by Byron Farwell called _Queen Victoria's
  Little Wars_ about Britian's conquests and maintainance of
  her Empire duing the Victorian reign.  

  One of the fascinating "discoveries" that the British could
  never get used to was that the peoples in the conquered
  territories were not always bursting with gratitude at the 
  gifts of order, civilization, and Good Government bestowed
  on them by the British.   Seeing the tribal chaos of Africa,
  or the 200 or so principalities, kingdoms, and so forth of
  the Indian subcontinent, or constant tribal warfare of
  Afghanistan, the British thought that surely these natives 
  would welcome with open arms the Queen's Regiments rather
  than to continue to be "subjected to competing warlords
  and religious fanatics".   

  Nobody, least of all Farwell, denies that the British often
  enjoyed great gains as a result of Empire, but he nonetheless 
  makes the point that during the 19th century the vast majority
  of British leaders, military officers, and civil servants were
  *convinced* in their heart-of-hearts that what they were doing 
  was for the benefit of the natives, and that the British way
  of life, political system, religion and culture was a great
  gift to offer the world.


---peter
From: sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.greek
Subject: Re: STOP BULLYING AND INTIMIDATING MACEDONIAN PEOPLE
Date: 23 Aug 92 20:36:59 GMT
Organization: Enea Data AB

James Dimos Dimarogonas (jdd1@cec1.wustl.edu) writes:
>So only the 2 million slavic
>"macedonians" have the right to the name macedonia but the 3 million
>other people in macedonia don't!!

I don't want to speak for Sasa Konecni (who is the addressed above),
but one thing does not exclude the other. For starter, I can't recall
seeing no one asking Greece to rename its Macedonian province.
-- 
Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - sommar@enea.se
Life is wonderful when the wonderlife is full
Xref: sparky soc.culture.yugoslavia:8266 soc.culture.europe:7792 soc.culture.german:5998
From: jd@latcs2.lat.oz.au (John Dimogotsis)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe
Subject: Re: Time to Get Rid of the Nation-State?
Date: 3 Sep 92 01:12:05 GMT
Organization: Comp Sci, La Trobe Uni, Australia

In article <1992Sep2.170113.24965@panix.com> gcf@panix.com (Gordon Fitch) writes:
>When I read of the innumerable small ethnic groups killing each
>other in the Balkans, it becomes clear to me that the idea of the
>nation-state, which appeared so attractive to liberals in the
>early 20th Century, has simply failed.  It no longer appears to
>be anything but an excuse for people to kill one another, and
>for what?  So they can be oppressed by thugs who speak their own
>language instead of thugs who speak some other language.

	Quite ture but how do we achieve this? If the European experiment
succeds then perphaps it could constantly expand until we got a "WEC"
(world econimc comunity).

>As it appears that we are not ready for anarchy yet, and must
>have some form of government, how about utilizing the United
>Nations to take over some of the work? Surely Bosnia, Somalia,
>Afghanistan and Cambodia would be better off under a neutral 
>U.N. administration of military and police functions than they
>are subjected to competing warlords and religious fanatics.

	Are you going to force the people in Bosnia to live together when
they don't want to? This policy of the West manipulating peoples and 
creating 'artificial' states, is what got us into this mess. Don't forget
Yugoslavia as a concept was created by the English.

	Note also "UN" has no power, if it ever acts it is a decision 
steamrolled through by the "vetoing" states mostly "USA" and serves only 
to give legitimacy to the foreign policies of these nations.

	The only way for the nation-state to be replaced by some United
nations type state is for the small nation-states to willingly become part 
of a bigger whole. That is they must through their own reasoning conclude 
this to be beneficial for them. And if they want to leave apart say as a 
nation of 0.00001% of the population of earth, so be it.

>I don't agree, by the way, with the common theory that a
>world government would be necessarily tyrannical.  The clever
>fellows who set up the U.S. Constitution found a solution in
>having different parts of the government impede each other in
>a structured way.  Surely the same principles can be applied
>on a larger scale.

	The "US" constitution is good in theory (perhaps the best) but in
practise it is circumvented by politicians who are litle more "demagogs".
In other words an elite class of "wealty and bureaucrats" hijack the
so called democratic process. (it was Nixon who said that once elected to
in office he was in effect a modern day emperor and could do anything he
wanted)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,eunet.politics,talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.theory,soc.culture.bulgaria,soc.culture.turkish
From: michael.polymenakos@factory.com (Michael Polymenakos) 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe
Subject: Re: Stop bullying and intimidating greek people
Date: 27 Aug 92 23:26:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Invention Factory's BBS - New York City, NY - 212-274-1243v.32bis
Reply-To: michael.polymenakos@factory.com (Michael Polymenakos) 


SK>From: sk@groo.sunbim.be (Sasa Konecni)

SK>When Noel Malcolm a journalist from "The Spectator" was in
SK>North Greece he wrote the following:

 I am not familiar with the Spectator so tell me, who publishes it?
Circulation figures, party affiliations, etc? This seems to be the only
paper that you are quoting.

You also forget to mention that Florina is 15Km (~9miles) from the
Greek-Vardar border. In this proximity to the border, some Slav populations
may exist. How may people are we talking about? There are villages in Greece
with 10 people.

In any case, when was the last time that Slav population was present
in (Greek)Macedonia in any major numbers?
Before 1913? Does not count. We are making no claims based on the large
greek population in Vardar before 1913. Don't make any claims on Greece
based on Slav populations there before 1913.

Do you now see why we object to the name "Macedonia" for Vardar? Your claims
about (Greek)Macedonia are unacceptable and false. Why would we recognise
any state that has patterns on our territory, and makes false claims about
internal Greek affairs?

You are making claims like these, and then you wonder why the EEC and the
US and the UN and all the countries in the world except 3 or 4 do not
take you seriously.If your claims were 0.0001% legitimate, you would have
achieved more recognition than this. Or do you believe that there is some
sort of evil conspiracy involving the entire world against "M"?

SK>     The public hysteria over the "Skopje Republic"
SK>[Macedonia] certainly does not help. The weekly nationalist-
SK>extremist newspaper Stohos ("Aim") now issues regular personal
SK>threats against these individuals or their friends, listing

 Stohos is a stupid publication with next to 0 readership and 0 credibility.
I suspect most of their issues are bought by anti-Greek propagandists.
At the May 31 demonstration everyone tried to keep them out, but they
sneaked in anyway. Real morons. I saw a 70-year old, probably an
ex germanotsolias, distributing leaflets and only my respect for his age
kept me from telling him to go ot hell. Another Stohos moron attacked
some Greek students who told him to go away and caused trouble.
Stohos puts more Greeks on their "lists" than all other nationalities
combined. BTW stohos means "Target", not "Aim".


SK>Sasa.

Michael.

---
 . SLMR 2.1a . All wiyht.  Rho sritched mg kegtops awound?
                           
Xref: sparky soc.culture.yugoslavia:8275 soc.culture.europe:7817 soc.culture.turkish:9417
From: stojanov@husc10.harvard.edu (Milan Stojanovic)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.europe,soc.culture.turkish
Subject: Re: Muslims "Slaughter Their Own People"
Date: 27 Aug 92 04:06:45 GMT
Article-I.D.: husc3.1992Aug27.000645.15145
Organization: Harvard University Science Center

In article <BtMA1G.16@ecf.toronto.edu> blazic@ecf.toronto.edu (BLAZIC Joseph R) writes:
>
>After more than 3 postings of the very same story from different publishers,
>I thought it would be prudent to keep things in perspective.
>
>/Joe Blazic

Mr. Blazic,

As usual, you fail to understand the main point, because of  your pathological
feelings toward Serbs.  The government of Alija Izetbegovic is a 
criminal government that is ready to kill its own people.  There is 
not a single reason why Serbs should accept to live under such a government,
( to that matter it seems to me that Croats are not willing to do that).
You were the one who posted at least 10 ( ten ) articles on this
network arguing that Serbs have done the killing of the people
waiting for bread.  Now, instead of apologizing you are changing the story. 

Milan N. Stojanovic  
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,soc.rights.human,bit.listserv.politics,misc.headlines,eunet.politics,talk.politics.misc
From: sachz@montebello.ecom.unimelb.EDU.AU (SAS)
Subject: Belorusans Request Recognition of Macedonia
Followup-To: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.greek
Organization: Dept. Engineering Computer Resources, Melbourne Uni.
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 13:06:54 GMT


BELORUSANS REQUEST RECOGNITION OF MACEDONIA

   The following request was made to the President of Parliament
of the Republic of Belarus, the Honorable Mr. Stanislav Shushkevich.

   We, Belarusans in Western Australia, remember 200 years of
oppression of our people, fate of other people we have deep in our
hearts and we always are ready to help them. Today on our mind we
have the Macedonian people, who like Belarusans declared independence
of their country Macedonia. But the free nations are not in a hurry
to recognise the independence of Macedonia and let them come into
the family of world free nations. Therefore, remembering our own fate,
we urge the parliament and government of the Republic of Belarus to
recognise the independence of Macedonia and to exchange ambassadors.

Michas Rajecki
Representative of Belarusan Association in Western Australia

Abstralisko Makedonski Nedelnik, 1 Sep 92.
From: ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis )
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,eunet.politics,talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.theory,soc.culture.bulgaria,soc.culture.turkish
Subject: Re: The New Greek Phobia (phobos): [ Part 2 from 5 ]
Date: 1 Sep 92 19:05:48 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana

nelson_p@apollo.hp.com (Peter Nelson) writes:

>  How about New Macedonia (as in New Mexico) or North Macedonia (as
>  in North Korea, North Dakota, West Virginia)?

>---peter

  They (Skopia, that is) deny any other title but "Republic of Macedonia".
  The informal proposition of Greece for a name "Slavic Macedonia" was
  rejected.  Since then, Greece is also denying any title with the name
  Macedonia in it.

  The point is, that if Skopia had accepted a name such as "New Macedonia"
  or "Slavic Macedonia", Greece could not have convinced the other European
  states to not recognize Skopia.  Do you agree?

  But Skopia does not want to choose a name other than "Republic of Macedonia"
  since the new name would imply that there are other people who call themselves
  Macedonians.  They claim that they are the only Macedonians.  Then, what the
  heck am I?

  Note also their propaganda.  There is plenty of it in the network.  Why do you
  think they are doing it?  Just for the fun of it?


-- 
---> Panos Tamamidis
     University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
From: susan_soric@upubs.uchicago.edu (Susan Soric)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: FREE BOSNIA: Chicago demonstration
Date: 28 Aug 92 14:09:38 GMT
Organization: Univ. of Chicago

A rally will be held in downtown Chicago at 3 p.m.
 Friday, August 28, protesting U.S. and U.N. inaction in
the war of aggression being waged against the
people of Bosnia-Herzegovina and Croatia.

It is sponsored by the Muslim Student Association
of Chicago.

Another massive demonstration is planned at
the Daley Center in downtown Chicago the afternoon
of  Saturday, Sept. 19, sponsored by a wider coalition of
peace, religious, and ethnic groups supporting
the lifting of the arms embargo against Bosnia-
Herzegovina and Croatia and calling for a 
reversal of U.S. and U.N. policy of punishing
both aggressor and victim with this boycott.
Sponsors of the demonstration support the 
right of Bosnia-Herzegovina and Croatia to
defend themselves against their aggressor, as
well as limited military action to end heavy
artillery strikes against the two former
Yugoslav republics and to open the death
camps and release prisoners.

I will provide more information on the
Sept. 19 demonstration as it becomes available.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: serdar@fawlty8.eng.monash.edu.au (Serdar Boztas)
Subject: Re: WHO'S THE BIGGER NAZI?
Organization: Monash University, Melb., Australia.
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 23:25:32 GMT

rdc@netcom.com (Rachel Dafni Christy) writes:

>HISTORY IN A NUTSHELL:

>DURING WWII, THE CROATIANS WERE THE NAZI LOVERS, ONLY TOO HAPPY TO
>HELP THE NAZI'S AND KILL SERBS.  TODAY, THE SERBIANS ARE ACTING LIKE
>THE NAZI'S KILLING THE CROATIANS.

>QUESTIONS:

>WHO'RE THE BIGGER NAZIS, SERBIAN OR CROATIANS?  HOW MANY ARE IN FAVOR
>OF DROPPING TWO NUCLEAR BOMBS ON YUGOSLAVIA, REMOVING THE SERBIAN AND
>CROATIAN SCUM, AND DESTROYING THOSE GOD AWEFUL YUGO'S TO BOOT.

Hey, Carasso, how about the state of Israel, I think that is another
candidate to be considered...

Anyway, none of Israel, Croatia, or Serbia come close to Nazi Germany.
For someone 'anti-Nazi' like yourself, your xenophobia and racism
is really sickening.

Idiot,

Serdar

>.
>.
>-- 
>--
>cj gypsy
-- 
Inhabited by absurd fears,  they only discuss  the puerilities with which 
every fool is familiar, and dare not, by turning a bold hand to the human 
heart, offer its gigantic idiosyncrasies to our views.     Sade, 'Justine'
Serdar Boztas \\ serdar@fawlty1.eng.monash.edu.au \\ +(61)3-565-5722 
Xref: sparky soc.culture.yugoslavia:8256 soc.culture.bulgaria:1216 soc.culture.greek:8074
From: michael.polymenakos@factory.com (Michael Polymenakos) 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.bulgaria,soc.culture.greek
Subject: RE: SKOPJE'S SWISS DREAMS
Date: 24 Aug 92 22:29:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Invention Factory's BBS - New York City, NY - 212-274-1243v.32bis
Reply-To: michael.polymenakos@factory.com (Michael Polymenakos) 


>From: vassil@cs.wisc.edu (Vassil Peytchev)
>No, the context is very different. In 1915 and in 1940 there were very few
>people who would call themselves Macedonians (as opposed to Bulgarian, Greek,
>etc.) Now these people are the majority in the x-Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia

  No disagreements here. My point exactly.

>Bulgarian officials on this board? Gee, I must have missed something... And
>which Bulgarian netter has claimed that there is a `large Macedonian minority'
>in Greece?

  These claims have been repeatedly advanced by a netter by the name Sasa
  Koceni (a native of Vardar, I assume).

  Don't take me wrong. This is quickly degenerating into a Greek-Bulgarian
  arguement, and this was never my intention. The reason that I mentioned
  the above Bulgarian military attempts was to point out the fact that
  Greeks have legitimate reasons to worry about the existence of an officially
  recognised "Macedonia" north of their border.

  Perhaps Bulgaria today has the best of intentions. To be absolutely fair,
  all attempts took place under monarchic, faschist or communist/totalitarian
  regimes. There is no reason why a democratic Bulgaria would repeat the
  mistakes of the past.

  This does not change the fact that there is a past history of misuse of the
  name "Macedonia" by both Sofia and Belgrade. Greece has legitimate reasons
  to hope that the misuse of the name "Macedonia" will become a thing of the
  past.

  A similar example is in the Poland/German border. Today's German gvmnt does
  not have any militaristic aspirations (I hope), but do you think Poland would
  be happy if maps were sold in Germany with the words "East Prussia" pasted
  over Poland?

  This is a very similar situation, only instead of naming Greece with a
  Slav name, Slavic lands have been given a Greek name for political
  purposes. Can you at least see why we are worried?

  Take care,

  Michael.

---
 . SLMR 2.1a . It's only a hobby ... only a hobby ... only a
From: malenovi@plains.NoDak.edu (Malenovic Nikola V.)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: WHO'S THE BIGGER NAZI?
Date: 4 Sep 92 00:07:59 GMT
Article-I.D.: plains.20138
Organization: North Dakota Higher Education Computing Network

In article <1992Sep3.184037.15349@husc3.harvard.edu> stojanov@husc8.harvard.edu (Milan Stojanovic) writes:
 >In article <1992Sep3.194913.11137@athena.mit.edu> dmatic@athena.mit.edu (Davor Matic) writes:

 >>I don't mean kill people like you, but maybe cut your tounges and fingers off
 >>and send you to an orthodox monastary. 

 >A Tudjman and Pavelic devotee?
 >No new approaches to the final solution of Serbian question in 
 >Croatia?   
 >>--- Davor
 >Milan N. Stojanovic
 
 
Ah c'mon Milane, at least they do not plan to hang us or slit our throat...
that's a progress, don't you think?

Nik
--
stdsclm: those who do not sense sarcasm, ough'ta take SARC 101 course...
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: dmatic@athena.mit.edu (Davor Matic)
Subject: Re: WHO'S THE BIGGER NAZI?
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 19:49:13 GMT

In article <14337@goanna.cs.rmit.oz.au>, s902211@yallara.cs.rmit.OZ.AU (Zoran
Kalenic) writes:
|>
|> The part about Serbians acting like nazi's is highly debateable and something
|> i wont go into here.
|>

You make me puke!  The only debatable thing right now is how are Serbs going
to pull themselves out of the shit they got themselves into and regain the
trust and respect of the international comunity.  Probably the frist step is 
by getting rid of people like you that are dragging them deeper into the abys.
I don't mean kill people like you, but maybe cut your tounges and fingers off
and send you to an orthodox monastary.  Serbs seem to be better at that kinda 
measures than diplomacy anyway, so why not make it work for you rather then
agains you...  :-)

Reagrds,
--- Davor

Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: sharon@unixland.natick.ma.us (Sharon Machlis Gartenberg)
Subject: Re: Croatian War Relief Needs
Organization: Unixland Public Access Unix & Think_Tank BBS
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1992 12:09:13 GMT

In article <1475300365@igc.apc.org> pnmideast@igc.apc.org writes:

>We told with the physician from Sarajevo, who works in UNICEF and was 
>one day in Zagreb. He said that the important help for Bosna in this 
>moment can be some more quality foods, specially for children. People 
>usually eat only bred, pastry, potato etc. They need foods like:
>
>	% powdered milk
>	% powdered eggs
>	% multivitamin pills
>
>You can to send this in Zagreb, on address of CENTER FOR PEACE, 
>NONVIOLENCE AND HUMAN RIGHTS, with designation "For children in 
>Bosnia". 

Can someone please post the (postal) mailing address for the Center,
so that net readers interested in sending things know how/where to do
this? Thanks.

Sharon 

-- 
Sharon Machlis Gartenberg
Framingham, MA  USA
email: sharon@unixland.natick.ma.us   or   uunet!think.com!unixland!sharon
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia