HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com (Ailsa N.T. Murphy)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Why not pentacles:
Date: 26 Jul 92 02:17:39 GMT
Organization: Ailanthus Project

Tim@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Tim) writes:

>  TA> In article <711356420.F00004@blkcat.UUCP> 
>  TA> Joe.Bethancourt@f166.n114.z1.fidonet.org (Joe Bethancourt) writes:
> 
>  TA> >As a piece of information as to "Why don't we allow the pentagram /
>  TA> >pentacle to be used in SCA heraldry, here is an excerpt from a file
>  TA> >available at 1:114/166 as CSDM.ZIP:
> 
>  TA> [very good informational file deleted to save bandwidth]
> 
>  TA> Well, I suppose that's as good a reason as any, but how  many and how
>  TA> much of our activites are we going to censor because of the prejudices
>  TA> of mundanes?
> 
>  How many sites are we going to have to lose access to, and now many drunk
>  rednecks at events (and pinhead preachers on the evening news) are we
>  going to have to cope with, before this perennial question will be
>  accepted as having been sufficiently answered? I, for one, am tired of
>  it....
> 
someone may well have answered this already, as it is a fairly old post, 
but if not...

at least you can dodge the problem.  for some of us, drunken rednacks 
hassling us and dweebie prechers are just the same old same old.  i'm an 
ickly lesbian witch evil influence everywhere i go.  so if the SCA loses 
sites for harboring icky icky pagans, then either someone has been being 
closeted before, or the local fundies are low on funds and need a cash 
cow to milk...

the best excuse for not using pentacles in heraldry, imho, is that they 
are not period.  period.  and the heck with censoring members' religious 
convictions...

                                         -Walburga Ingsdottir

ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com   or   io81409@maine.maine.edu
 
"If it has tires or testicles, you're going to have trouble with it."
                            _Ohio state Senator Linda Furney
From: cozzlab@garnet.berkeley.edu
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period vs. Filk (was Basic Courtesy)
Date: 30 Jul 92 16:25:29 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: garnet.berkeley.edu

In article <712477960.F00001@therose.pdx.com> Leonard.Erickson@f56.n105.z1.therose.pdx.com (Leonard Erickson) writes:
>
>Alas, in fandom (where the term "filk" originated), it *also* applies to 
>original words and tunes *about* Fandom.
>
>So I have to say that original songs *about* the SCA are filk. This ranges 
>from "Burden of the Crown", to some pretty silly stuff. 
 
By your leave, milord, not so.  We have here the common misunderstanding
whereby one assumes that whatever the _original_ meaning of a word once
was, is now and still its basic, true meaning.  

Example.  A psychiatrist is on the witness stand, testifying that he
diagnosed a male patient as suffering from hysteria.  "But," says the
lawyer for the other side, " 'hysteria' comes from the Greek word for
'womb'.  Surely you didn't find any such organ in the patient?"  Gales
of laughter from the jury.

Example: the title "steward" used to mean "pig-keeper."  (Sty-ward,
get it?)

Example: the word "black" used to mean "white" (compare "blank").

Words do change over the years: not only their forms, but also their
meanings, and whoever ignores this will occasionally find himself
sounding very silly.

Now, the original source of the word "filk", as probably everyone knows,
was a typo in the program book: "Folk singing at 7:30 in the Redwood
Room" became "Filk singing ..." and the rest was history.  While SF fans
do use "filk" to mean "new words to an extant tune that may or may not
be older than the performer", the basic fannish meaning of "filk" in
practice is "what you sing at conventions." 

By this definition nothing sung at an SCA event is filk, but I suggest
we choose the distinction that's been proposed on this bridge before:
"filk" is material using modern tunes, words, or concepts so combined
that they rupture the medieval ambiance; whereas "contrefait" is period
or near-period music combined with period concepts and appropriate 
language such that they do _not_ jar.

As for items like "The Burden of the Crown," where the concept is
perioid and the words and music original, I suggest we adopt another
suggestion made on this bridge and call them "songs."


Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin                               Dorothy J. Heydt
Mists/Mists/West                                              Albany CA
Argent, a cross forme'e sable

Disclaimer: This is the Cozzarelli Lab's account, not mine--but I don't
think anybody else ever reads it.
From: z_berryrw@ccsvax.sfasu.edu
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Rapiers and Quarterstaves; Re: Rapiers and Honour
Date: 21 Jul 92 01:50:21 CST
Organization: Stephen F. Austin State University

In article <711615619.F00004@blkcat.UUCP>, Joe.Bethancourt@f166.n114.z1.fidonet.org (Joe Bethancourt) writes:
>  > Wolfrick Thorinsson av Gotland, Shire of Greywood, Ansteorra
>  > z_berryrw@ccsvax.sfasu.edu
>  GS> 
>  GS> Wolfrick, how much do your rapiers *weigh*?
>  GS> 
>  GS> The (at least around here) answer of 'about as much as a modern
>  GS> fencing epee' is my complaint with fencing in the SCA.
> 
> And the attitude that a Musketeer/epee/slagger blade is the same weight as a 
> real rapier is STUPID. The first thing I do with novice rapier fighters is 
> hand them my -real- one, and ask them to "parry by beat" with it. It's too
> heavy to do that. So then they begin to learn -rapier- combat and NOT 'SCA
> Fencing.'
> 
>                                                         -Ioseph of Locksley
>                                                          Grumpy Person
> 
Dearest Ioseph,
Grumpy is right!  This is not a flame.  "Stupid" I find inappropriate,
"ignorant" I willingly accept.  There's a big difference.
Last weekend I spoke to a Don and some Cadets at the Coronation of William the
Bear and his Lady Catherine (Vivat Rex et Regina Ansteorra!).
Those I discussed this topic with were in general agreement that even double
wide epees are nowhere near the weight and feel of a rapier.
I have never played with a double wide epee, but I can only assume that,
while not the weight of a rapier, it must certainly be _more_ realistic than a 
#5 foil.
General concensus seemed to be that no really good rapier substitute exists,
at least not a metallic one, and we all agreed that the clink of metal during
a fight is an important part of the charm of this sport we call rapier, 
renaisance, swashbuckling, or simply, "light weapons" combat.
Above, I quote you as stating that you teach your beginning students to use
a rapier.  I would be very interested to learn how you go about this, ie, what
equipment do you use, what armor, etc?  Again, this is not a flame, and I am
not being sarcastic.  Any improvement we can safely employ would make me 
very happy, and I am sure others would be glad of a better rapier simulant too.

Humbly Standing Corrected, but Still Curious,

Wolfrick Thorinsson, Shire of Graywood, Ansteorra

*The opinions expressed herein are my own, and any miscommunications which lead
to misquotations or errors are expressly my fault.  I don't stick out anyone's
neck but my own... :)
From: jtn@nutter.cs.vt.edu (Terry Nutter)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Why not pentacles:
Date: 21 Jul 92 05:15:01 GMT
Followup-To: rec.org.sca
Organization: SCA

Unto the good gentles of the Rialto does Hossein Ali Qomi send greetings
and prayers for the blessings of Allah.

Graydon quotes a previous posting which I quoted and my comment:

>> >I don't know if the Christian cross is allowed as a charge, but if it is,
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> >then so should the Pentagram and Pentacle, since it would blow my second
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> >argument.   But I've yet to see a registered device which flies a cross 
>> >(plenty of smiley faces and Texaco logos though  ;>  )  so I feel safe in
>> >my argument.
>> 
>> Ah, the Middle Ages "not as they were, but as they should have been."  You
>> know, the ones where Julian the Apostate extirpated Christianity and all
>> the crowned heads of Europe were devout worshippers of the mother-goddess.
>> _Those_ Middle Ages, the ones which have no basis in history...

And then thinks to deliver the coup de grace:

>You mean, no one in the 14th century ever wrote a long poem 
>attributing to Sir Gawain the arms 'gules, a pentangle or'?
>(pentangle - pentacle without the circle).  The things
>have been found carved on churches, too.

Of course, not Graydon.  I was referring to the sentiments underlined in
the latest redaction of the original quote: the very unmedieval notion
that if a Christian symbol is permitted, then pagan symbols should be
permitted as well.  It's that kind of thinking which makes me wince and
inspires my sarcastic muse.  It's another example of the way twentieth-
century conventions of equality and fairness enter into our enterprise;
I'm simply more comfortable with medieval notions of fairness -- which
were quite different -- when I'm recreating the Middle Ages.  But, then,
I'm an old fart.

Better luck next time on the coup de grace.

With many fond wishes,

Hossein/Greg
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: kkr42091@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (QUEEN ZENOBIA!)
Subject: HELP
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 22:49:48 GMT

CAn someone help me get the name of someone i can contact in The Barony
of Wurm Wald?
i have someone interested in the meetings there but i dont have anyones numbers with me.
[i am in finland]
if you would be so kind as to email kag1948@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu
and post kate on it thanks :)
-kyllikki AKA kimberli roan tapiontyt{r


-- 
*******************************************************************************
*Kimberli K Roan          * "I have heard the echoes in the dark, * IRC: good *
*901 W Main -Bsmt.        * dim and distant voices of the past,   * luck in   *
*Urbana, Il USA 61801     * and I've seen so far into the night,  * finding me*
From: feland@husc9.Harvard.EDU (Andrew Feland)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Rapier Combat
Date: 21 Jul 92 21:16:14 GMT
Article-I.D.: husc3.1992Jul21.171615.14024
Distribution: world
Organization: Harvard University Science Center

So, where does one get a good rapier around here, anyway?
Any ideas?

Email welcome.

-Andrew
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: ewright@convex.com (Edward V. Wright)
Subject: Re: Rapier Combat
Organization: Engineering, CONVEX Computer Corp., Richardson, Tx., USA
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 19:40:19 GMT
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

Aryk (A.J.S. Nusbacher) writes:

>This is a telling argument.  While SCA fencing certainly owes more to
>modern ideas of fencing than to the 16th century masters of the sport,

I think this is overstating the case.  I would defy you to find any
modern fencing book (books on theatrical fencing don't count) that
even discusses offhand parries, use of a dagger, use of a buckler, 
use of the cloak, Florentine rapiers, fencing in the round, or calling
blows based on anatomy and physiology rather than artificial scoring.

I would even claim that SCA fencing is, in some ways, more authentic
than the actual rapier fencing you do.  On that, I will quote Baron 
Don Robin of Gilwell: "We have learned that, if we are going to maintain
safety, either the blows can be authentic, in which case the weapons
cannot be, or the weapons can be authentic, in which case the blows
cannot be.  Different kingdoms have different philosophies on this,
and all are to some degree valid.  We in Ansteorra have always tended,
more than any other kindom, toward the former, which is why our weapons
cannot be authentic."  Of course, if you measure authenticity based on
the risk of losing an eye, you undoubtedly have an advantage. ;-)

-- Nicholas van Leyden
From: Jeff Lee <jlee@smylex.UUCP>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: twinkie names
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 92 19:31:31 EDT
Organization: Shipbrook Software  (Tampa, FL)

In article <711976133.F00001@ocitor.fidonet>, Tim@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Tim) writes:
>     Lord Godfrey de Shipbrook wrote:
> 
>      =I only mention this because you appear to be insinuating that I was
>      =stating my opinions from behind the veil of anonymity;  I do not fear
>      =to stand behind my words, and have never resorted to such cowardice.
> 
>  Not at all, and again my apologies if it seemed so.

*My* apologies for mistaking your intent.


>      >  If you bothered
>      >  to look into the subject (heavens, what a thought)
> 
>      Ah, you're doing MORE than insinuating.  You're being BLATANTLY
>      insulting.
> 
>  Well, you appeared not to have looked into the subject. Reading your
>  message again, I am still of the opinion that that was a reasonable
>  judgment to make. I did not intend to be BLATANTLY insulting, merely
>  somewhat sarcastic. If you were BLATANTLY insulted, then I beg your
>  pardon.

The really insulting bit is the `heavens, what a thought'.  Contrary to 
your implication, I *enjoy* research; however, I have not been able to
research *everything* under the sun (yet).  

If one's argument is well-founded, milord, it should be able stand on
its own -- without the accompaniment of ad hominem attacks.


>      > you would find that
>      > "hordes" were named after colors, not metals.
> 
>      Can you quote some sources for this statement, please?
> 
>  Certainly. The term "horde" comes through Polish from the Turkish word for
>  "camp" (ordu). [Oxford English Dictionary] I know of two Hordes in period:
>  the Golden Horde of the Kipchaks, and the much later White Horde of the
>  Krim Tatars. [Shepherd's Historical Atlas] Do you know of any others?

Err...  Begging your pardon, but isn't *gold* a metal?

+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Net:  Jeff Lee / jlee@smylex.uucp / jlee%smylex.uucp@tscs.tscs.com     |
| SCA:  Lord Godfrey de Shipbrook / Wyvernwood, Trimaris                 |
|       Per pale azure and argent, a clarion counterchanged or and gules |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
      "Of course!  Lager!  The only thing that can kill a vindaloo!"
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: GEN0036@Husky1.StMarys.Ca (GILBERT RICHARD)
Subject: Re: Residence in local branches
Organization: St. Mary's University, Halifax, N.S., Canada
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 19:11:03 GMT
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.12.SMU

In <1992Jul20.233344.15644@athena.cas.vanderbilt.edu> cctimar@athena.cas.vanderbilt.edu writes:

> To alle vpon the Rialto doth Charles send greetinges!
> 
> One change that would make the Society more feudal in flavour would
> be to have the local cantons and shires collect membership fees.
> The cantons would then send the fees to the barons, the barons to
> the princes, the princes to the kings.
> 
> The allegiance of _paying_ members could then be determined easily.
> 
> Moreover, the requirements for baronial status could then be phrased
> in much more feudal terms.  For example,
>      an ye deliver vnto myne exchequer eche yeer the somme
> 	 of .dcc. dollares, and ye prouide .viij. men skilled
> 	 in war for my campagnes, then shal ich name you among
> 	 the barrons of my realm, and grant vnto you the
> 	 priuileges ther of.
> 
> Now this does not prevent a new shire in Australia from sending its
> tribute to the Prince of Aethelmearc, but if it is done properly,
> this would be discouraged by the inherent problems - such as sending
> however many fighters to campaigns in the Aethelmearc area every year,
> not receiving royal visits, never being able to host major events, &c.
> -- 
>     -- Charles, student, in Glaedenfeld, Meridies

It would also lead to the possibility of local groups *belonging to
different kingdoms* existing side-by-side... this could get really
strange... (can you imagine, say having an Eastern group form in or very
near what is now the Barony of the Skraeling Althing? It could lead to some
very strange situations...)

Not that this is necessarily a bad thing... Heh, just the pure weirdness of
having an Eastern baron and a Middle baron living in the same mundane city
could be interesting...

-Brynjolfr Myrkjartanarson, Compaignie Mercurie, Seashire, Ruantallan, East

      The unwise man thinks he will live for ever if he shuns fight, but
      Old age gives him no peace though spears may shun him. - The Havamal

          The Net: gen0036@husky1.stmarys.ca, gen0036@stmarys.bitnet
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: blaxson@shade.UWaterloo.ca (Brian A.Laxson)
Subject: Re: Basic Courtesy
Reply-To: balaxson@systems.watstar.uwaterloo.ca
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 15:29:33 GMT


from another post:

> > Is there any consensus on this issue?
> 
> Well, mine opinion is that it hath no place on the Rialto.  The Rialto    
> USED
> to be one of the most flame-free environments on the Net.  One could     
> post
> an opinion and not get flamed for it; at most, people would                  
> *courteously*
> correct mistaken beliefs and misinformation.
> 
>
> > Do we want to discourage outright discourtesy?
> 
> I, for one, would like to; from the first day I joined the SCA in AS                           
> XXII, 
> I was told that we're all supposed to practice chivalry and courtesy,      
> not 
> behave like drunken brawlers in a portside tavern.

Aye, ye have my vote for such practice as well.

I recently recieved an email response to a posting here, where the writer  
made "suggestions" on my ability to talk about the matter.  Although it  
seems they tried to make it appear non-offensive I was still insulted.  (I  
by and large decided not to take serious offense and disregared the  
content of the email).

The :-)  can help show sarcasm but they do not give free license to make  
uncourteous comments.  I look at them this way:  If you were in right in  
front of me and said that what would I do????  Options range from laugh,  
grin, growl, swat lightly, resist hitting harder, start punning around  
etc.... (not necessarily in that order).

Brian Goodhart, Eater of the Great Danish.
From: boylan@sltg04.ljo.dec.com (Steve Boylan)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Basic Courtsey
Date: 30 Jul 92 21:47:45 GMT
Reply-To: boylan@sltg04.ljo.dec.com (Steve Boylan)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation


My good lords and ladies all, I beg you, please put up your
knives and swords and douse your torches!  Cease the horrid abuse of the
helpless mule!

Please, as the worthy Alexander has pleaded, cease this unseemly
brawling.  Such heedless actions lead to no good, as the grave
injury done to the good and innocent Earl Daffyd ap Gwystl has shown.

Stephen of the Grove, Bertram of Bearington, Arglwydd Dafydd Cyhoeddwr o
dyr Chwilfriwhuan, Angharad/Terry, Nicholas van Leyden - this thread has
reached a point where ANY comment seems to overstep the bounds of
courtesy.

This quarrel is all the more unseemly in light of the grave peril
looming over our brave Knights, set to venture forth to war.  I implore
you all to put up your weapons, still this noise, sit down and quaff a
pint of ale.  Let us return to less quarrelsome topics of conversation,
lest someone indeed call the watch down upon us all, as has been
threatened!

There is no need for any to depart from our midst, as the good Thomas
Ignatius Perigrinus has so well implored.  All that I would beg is
that all present leave off this endless and progressively more heated
debate over the intentions of Stephen and the words chosen by Dafydd and
Bertram.

I remain, in the hope that we can return to more courteous and gentle
conversation here, your most humble and obedient servant.

				- - Steve
				    boylan@ljohub.enet.dec.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman)
Subject: Re: period heraldric recreation
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 19:48:56 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

> The same hill has also been called Peerage Estates, dating from the time
> its peak was used for camping.  I believe Mount St. Hellandgone was a
> name coined by people whose gorge was made to rise by naming a minor
> topographic feature "Mount Eislinn".

All three names were coined in the same year, the one year when there was
camping atop that hill (Eislinn's War, whichever year that was).  There
were several other names, none of which have survived in usage.  ("Hy
Brasil", "The Fairy Hill").  "Peerage Estates" and "Mount St.  Hellandgone"
were both references to the camping arrangement: the first because there
was a disproportionate number of peers on the hill, and the second because
it was so very far away from the main camp (by the standards of the time).
The name "Mount Eislinn" was coined by the King of Ansteorra, who was
camped up there.  He proclaimed the name (by right of possession) in Great
Court.

===========================================================================
Arval Benicoeur                                       mittle@watson.ibm.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: archer@utkux1.utk.edu (T. Archer)
Subject: Date Rape
Organization: University of Tennessee Division of Continuing Education
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 13:07:44 GMT

>Gentlemen should
>be sensitive to a lady's refusal of such offers, especially if she appears
>nervous. 

Yep.  At the first sign of refusal, fade away.  There are always others, and 
mis-interpreted signals can get you hauled up on charges, or beaten 
senseless.
-=-=-
T. Archer  PA142548@utkvm1.utk.edu
University of Tennessee
"Vote Dempublican, it's easier than thinking." -- Unknown
-=-=-
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: schuldy@progress.COM (Mark Schuldenfrei)
Subject: Re: Basic Courtesy
Organization: Progress Software Corp.
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 18:48:31 GMT

Angharad basically defends Stephen of the Groves response
to the Bunny Shoot poem by Christian.

Angharad, I'm a little surprised.  Christian didn't recite his
poem to you at an event: he posted it here, in this thoroughly
modern forum, with due apologies for modern content.  What's
wrong with that?

I certainly took Stephen's meaning to be an attempt to humiliate
Christian, but I also powdered that liberally with the knowledge
that in this medium, who can tell?

If Stephen meant to humiliate Christian, as it first appeared to
me, then it was discourteous.  If it was a critique meant to be
helpful, it failed somewhat, but the intent removes a lot of the
sting.  Stephen has failed to enlighten us as to his intent. Do
you (or anyone) know his intent?

Now, when Christian recited this poem at a period poetry party
recently, all of your arguments came true.  But, my words here
are the first reference to that transgression that I'm aware
of.  And, heck, the guy's proud of that work: and I'd just as
soon encourage him to continue, moving in the direction of
period work, as smack him with an ambivalent put down, as
Stephen did.  Christian has promise.

I've even written a modern (and terrible) poem or two about
goings on in the Society.  One or two have seen print in our
newsletter, and the rest of the trash lives in my word processor
(bottom-feeding, I suspect).

The posting to the Rialto is neither a terrible sin, nor an uncommon
occurence.  Sadly, beating a horse like this is not an uncommon
occurence, either. (:-)

	Tibor
--
Mark Schuldenfrei (schuldy@progress.com)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca