From: rpitts@emperor.gatech.edu (Richard Pitts)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Tyre still exists today (was: I'm God.)
Date: 16 Oct 92 13:23:24 GMT
Organization: CERL-EE, Georgia Institue of Technology

In article <13768@pogo.wv.tek.com> daveb@pogo.wv.tek.com (Dave Butler) writes:
|...
|Also Richard, as to your specific defense trying to show that Ezekiel's
|prophesy came true, is even more silly.  You claim that the "They" mentioned
|in the prophesy is not the cavalry of of Nebuchadrezzar mentioned in the last
|sentence, but instead, is the army of Alexander:

ONLY because you did include or consider the first set of verses.  Note
verse 3 -"I WILL BRING MANY NATIONS AGAINST YOU" and verse 7 says "FROM
THE NORTH I AM GOING TO BRING AGAINST TYRE NEBUCHADNEZZAR" 

   Ezek 26:1   In the eleventh year, on the first day of the month, the word
      of the LORD came to me:
   Ezek 26:2   "Son of man, because Tyre has said of Jerusalem, 'Aha! The gate
      to the nations is broken, and its doors have swung open to me; now that
      she lies in ruins I will prosper,'
   Ezek 26:3   therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says: I am against
      you, O Tyre, and I will bring many nations against you, like the sea
      casting up its waves.
   Ezek 26:4   They will destroy the walls of Tyre and pull down her towers; I
      will scrape away her rubble and make her a bare rock.
   Ezek 26:5   Out in the sea she will become a place to spread fishnets, for
      I have spoken, declares the Sovereign LORD. She will become plunder for
      the nations,
   Ezek 26:6   and her settlements on the mainland will be ravaged by the
      sword. Then they will know that I am the LORD.
   Ezek 26:7   "For this is what the Sovereign LORD says: From the north I am
      going to bring against Tyre Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, king of
      kings, with horses and chariots, with horsemen and a great army.
   Ezek 26:8   He will ravage your settlements on the mainland with the sword;
      he will set up siege works against you, build a ramp up to your walls
      and raise his shields against you.
|   Ezek 26:9   He will direct the blows of his battering rams against your
|      walls and demolish your towers with his weapons.
|   Ezek 26:10   His horses will be so many that they will cover you with dust.
|      Your walls will tremble at the noise of the war horses, wagons and
|      chariots when he enters your gates as men enter a city whose walls have
|      been broken through.
|   Ezek 26:11   The hoofs of his horses will trample all your streets; he will
|      kill your people with the sword, and your strong pillars will fall to
|      the ground.
|   Ezek 26:12   They will plunder your wealth and loot your merchandise; they
|		^^^^
|      will break down your walls and demolish your fine houses and throw your
|      stones, timber and rubble into the sea.
   Ezek 26:13   I will put an end to your noisy songs, and the music of your
      harps will be heard no more.
   Ezek 26:14   I will make you a bare rock, and you will become a place to
      spread fishnets. You will never be rebuilt, for I the LORD have spoken,
      declares the Sovereign LORD.

|This is a blatant and contrived twisting of scripture, to get the conclusion
|you wish to get.  Alexander is never discussed, nor is the "they" given any

You ignored the intro - there is a prophecy of MANY NATIONS and one nation
from the north (Nebuchadnezzar) is specificed, but it says MANY NATIONS.

|context separate from Nebuchadrezzar.  Thus there is no good contextual
|reasons to believe that the "they" used here is Alexander rather
|Nebuchadrezzar's cavalry.  To say that the "they" in the prophesy could not
|possibly mean Nebuchadrezzar because Nebuchadrezzar failed to conquer Tyre, is
|Circular Reasoning (ie: assuming your conclusion).  Another example of faulty
|reasoning is where you assume that there was about 40,000 people in Tyre when
|Alexander conquered it:
|
|> It had approximately 40,000 inhabitants at its demise at the hands of 
|> Alexander the Great - 10,000 were killed and 30,000 were sold as slaves.

American Encyclopedia - Lilburn Public Library in Metropolitan Atlanta.

|I find agreement with the assertion that about 10,000 were killed and about
|30,000 were sold as slaves, but you are assuming that there were only ~40,000
|people because you want to assert that the city population was completely
|wiped out, and thus no remnant population was left after Alexander's conquest
|to rebuild Tyre; that is faulty reasoning.  All that the ~10,000 deaths +
|~30,000 slaves tells us, is that there were AT LEAST ~40,000 people, not that
|were ONLY ~40,000 people. 

Give you evidence that people escaped - I won't deny this, but the 
encyclopedia I looked at implied complete capture - they were an island.

|Further you have not presented any trustworthy reference to show that that
|Nebuchadrezzar even conquered Tyre, while I have seen statements from the EB
|that Nebuchadrezzar did not conquer Tyre, and if Nebuchadrezzar did not do so,
|then this would renders the prophesy false. 

This is correct - HE did not.  The falling of Tyre is given to THEY (the
MANY NATIONS) - Nebuchadnezzar got spoils from Egypt - Ezekiel 27, I believe.

|Now it not longer surprises me that Mr Kennedy would use such patently
|fallacious reasoning, as I see him to be a theological leech upon the
|Christian religion, making his living by peddling his books and ministry, and
|giving people lies on which to build their faith.  It does though disappoint
|me Richard, that you would continue try to pass such ridiculous arguments on
|to us who are not so credulous.  In fact your whole line of argument at
|present, reflects an inability to present good arguments or references.  Your
|credibility to me will fast go to zip, if you keep up these wild and
|fallacious claims, and especially if you keep using Mr Kennedy as a credible
|authority.  It seems to me that you base your belief more on a willingness to
|accept the word of self proclaimed "historians" who say what you want to hear,
|rather than accepting the word of actual historians who publish trustworthy
|scholarship and arguments. 

Oh.  It seems you willing want to believe Bible couldn't be correct in
this case and so you willing believe the historians over the Bible.

|				Later,
|
|				Dave Butler
|
|		Men willingly believe what they wish.
|				Julius Caesar
|				De Bello Gallico

So they do - that is why they do not turn to God and be saved.

|    Clergymen who publish pious frauds in the interest of the Church are 
|    the orthodox liars of God.
|				Samuel Taylor Coleridge

Agreed - you haven't proven your case.  What you presented was a 
misrepresentation or misunderstanding of my comments.

|    PS.  Another of Mr Kennedy's lies is that "the evidence for Christ's 
|    existence of Christ existence are more than for any other event in 
|    ancient history."  This is another incredible lie which puts Mr Kennedy 
|    beneath contempt.  

Oh.  I see you have a plethora of evidence to the contrary (i.e., you have 
asserted, but not presented it.)

|    P.P.S.  I will be home the next few days to do renovations, and will 
|    probably not bother to log in for the next several days.  So Richard, if 
|    you reply, and you wish me to see you reply, then it would be best to send 
|    me a copy.  

Sincerely,
Richard Pitts
-- 
rpitts@cerl.gatech.edu       |    
Atlanta, GA                --|-- 
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