HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mcochran@nyx.cs.du.edu (Mark A. Cochran)
Subject: Re: Beer War
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Organization: None worth mentioning.
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 93 01:18:41 GMT

In article <1993Jan03.231802.14197@wisdom.bubble.org> bleys@wisdom.bubble.org (Bill Cavanaugh) writes:

>Heck, it hasn't been a war, it's been a discussion.  Mary, Bob, and I might
>not agree, but we try to respect each others opinions.  You say potaito,
>I'll say potahto...
>
And some people even say potatoe, right? :)

>bill
>-- 
> *         Bill Cavanaugh       bleys@wisdom.bubble.org          *
>XY + XX = :-)


--
                  Mark Cochran          merlin@eddie.ee.vt.edu
These are the views of my employer. They also represent the views of
your employer, your government, the Church of your choice, and the
Ghost of Elvis. So there.
From: mary@Cayman.COM (Mary Malmros)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Thai kickboxing
Date: 3 Jan 93 15:24:25 GMT
	<1992Dec27.035210.23364@microsoft.com><1992Dec31.024754.25064@microsoft.com>
	<1993Jan03.023955.1546@microsoft.com>
Distribution: usa
Organization: Cayman Systems Inc., Cambridge, MA
In-reply-to: bobsarv@microsoft.com's message of 3 Jan 93 02:39:55 GMT


In article <1993Jan03.023955.1546@microsoft.com> bobsarv@microsoft.com (Bob Sarver) writes:

  >/(me)
  >/   Much of what I found out about taekwondo was that it was impractical in
  >/   street defense, because so much of it depended on flamboyant kicking.  
  >/   Imagine doing that on a gravel surface with three beers under your belt
  >                                          ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
  >/   (the most common situation where you might have to defend yourself to
  >/   begin with).
  >
  >
  >/(mary)
  >/Not for some of us.  
  >
  >/Please, if you're going to get inebriated and belligerent, don't blame 
  >/a martial art because it doesn't bail you out.  
  >
  >
  >
  >"If I'm going to get inebriated and belligerent"?
  >
  >Did it ever occur to you, Oh Giver of Knowledge, that my comment was
  >coming from the defensive aspect of MA, and not from the offense
  >side (I did say "impractical in street DEFENSE").
  >
  >Just because someone starts a fight with me after I have had three beers
  >doesn't mean that I started the fight.  
  >
  >And just because someone tries to mug me or roll me in an alley on my way 
  >back from a bar doesn't mean that I was the one who got "belligerent".
  >
  >Next time you're going to dish out sarcastic advice, make sure you
  >know what you're talking about first.  Keeps the egg off your face.

Relax, it'll help with the hypertension ;-)

Okay, scratch the "belligerent", but I stand firm on the "inebriated".  
It's a purely voluntary risk, as I'm sure you'll agree.

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Mary Malmros     | Cayman Systems Inc, 26 Landsdowne St, Cambridge, MA 02139
 mary@cayman.com  | Phone 617-494-1999  Fax 617-494-5167  AppleLink CAYMAN.TECH

Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: jfrost@crash.cts.com (Julian Frost)
Subject: Re: Kotegaeshi (wrist/forearm technique)
Organization: CTS Network Services (crash, ctsnet), El Cajon, CA
Date: 30 Dec 92 10:24:36 PST

In article <1992Dec30.144332.4766@srg.srg.af.mil> schan@birch.srg.af.mil (Stephen Chan x4485) writes:
>	I've had a nasty kote-gaeshi variant practiced on me by seniors which
>involved bending the wrist enough for leverage, and then rotating it along the
>axis of the forearm (as well as some wrist bending). It was significantly more
>persuasive.
Moving out of the line of attack and turning one's own *center* has
this effect... it's called "doing it correctly"!!  But I wouldn't call
it a variant!

>	It was considered a kote-gaeshi. It seems to me that the seniors, after
>years of practice, had an intuitive feel for how to convert the nice, canonical
>Aikido technique into a a more vicious variant.
                                          ^
                                        / | \
                                          |
                                           \ Variant??

Yep, I guess so!  Practise, Practise, Practise!
Julian

Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: osan@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (Mr. X)
Subject: Re: Searching for sword bits for WW2 Katana
Organization: Twilight Zone
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 17:21:16 GMT

In article <92Dec22.144058.27010@acs.ucalgary.ca> parr@acs.ucalgary.ca (Charles Parr) writes:
>Posted on behalf of Steve Hick
>
>
>------ Forwarded Message
>
>A friend just recently purchased a shin-shinto sword in Japanese WWII
>naval officer's mounting.  The saya is probably not original, it is so
>tight that it is marring the blade.  Does anyone know either wherer to
>purchase shira-saya, or someone who makes saya?

	Try the following:

	Fred Lohman                        
        3405 NE Broadway                                           
        Portland, OR                                                
        97232 
	(503) 282-4567         

	He sell sword furnishings and tape.  I'm not sure he sells shira saya,
	but it can't hurt to ask.  $5 get you a catalog and tape samples.

	-Andy V.
From: ap932@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Larry Cuy)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Anyone practice Gracie?
Date: 3 Jan 1993 23:24:45 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: slc4.ins.cwru.edu



Having watched some Gracie videos (Action 2 and instructional
tapes) I'm wondering if anyone on the net actually has been
trained in Gracie and if it is as effective as claimed. The
tapes which seem to show actual street fighting are somewhat
convincing. I know, all of you that believe in keeping on your
feet distain going to the ground or that possibility but htat
seems to be the reality in many real life situations. Gracie
seems to have a straightforward method of dealing with that
eventuality. Comments from those that have practiced Gracie?

Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: mallon@hsi.com (Dan Mallon-Kraft)
Subject: Re: poor technique
Organization: 3M Health Information Systems, Wallingford, CT
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 19:51:00 GMT

In article <4449@unisql.UUCP> wrat@unisql.UUCP (wharfie) writes:
>In article <JON.92Dec14165354@zeus.med.utah.edu> jon@zeus.med.utah.edu (Jonathan Byrd) writes:
<>Some competitors will let their blows penetrate just a little past the
<>contact point.  These blows are often fast, powerful, and accurate.
<>The only thing "poor" about them is the fact that they make contact,
<>which is against the rules.  Rules notwithstanding, hard contact
<
<	To my way of thinking, deliberately disregarding agreed upoun
<rules to hurt your opponent is poor technique, in fact, it's the worst
<possible technique.  

It's absolutely disgusting as far as I'm concerned.

<	Many years ago I was at a judo tournament on the East Coast.
<One competitor was winning most of his matches with a standing arm lock:
<he'd snap on some variation of wake-gatame and throw himself to the mat.
<He'd do this with such speed and disregard for the safety of his opponent
<that he broke two arms before the other person had time to surrender.  He
<was more concerned with winning the match than with anything else.  Yes,
<his technique was very good, since even when people knew what to expect
<he'd still break their arms.  Yes, his technique was very bad, since he
<could not apply it in safe and controlled manner.

Was this event before the rule about standing arm-locks went into effect?
My understanding is that when applying an arm-lock in competition from
the standing position, you must allow the opponent an opportunity to
submit.

Was nothing done to reprimand the competitor?  These are the people that
really give MA a bad name.

Dan
From: JTCHEW@lbl.gov (Ad absurdum per aspera)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: More ki/qi/chi & science
Followup-To: rec.martial-arts
Date: 21 Dec 1992 16:09:27 GMT
Organization: Honest Ernie's Used Ions
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.3.252.152

There are two kinds of people:  those who can accept dualism and those who
can't.  :)

I dabble in both physics and martial arts (neither with spectacular success
:). Rejectng religion/philosophy because it cannot be explained in terms of
physics and trying to explain chi in terms of red subatomic particles are
equal and opposite turnoffs for me.   

Sail on, sweet mystery!

Joe
"Just another personal opinion from the People's Republic of Berkeley"
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: "elliott chapin" <elliott.chapin@canrem.com>
Subject: dangers in falling
Reply-To: "elliott chapin" <elliott.chapin@canrem.com>
Organization: Canada Remote Systems
Distribution: rec
Date: 24 Dec 92 03:13:36 EST

Thanks for responses re falls on hard surfaces.  Clearly rolling is
preferable; but if you can't one backward breakfall method is to use
back expansion instead of arm slaps -
I was wondering what similar methods there might be,
but deliberately left the question as open as possible anyway ...
At the few tournaments I've attended (spectator only) I've seen some
interesting falls built into KF forms.

Elliott Chapin
---
  DeLuxe 1.12 #4315  elliott.chapin@canrem.com
--
Canada Remote Systems  - Toronto, Ontario
World's Largest PCBOARD System - 416-629-7000/629-7044
From: wrat@unisql.UUCP (wharfie)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: nelsons
Date: 28 Dec 92 15:57:51 GMT
Organization: UniSQL, Inc., Austin, Texas, USA

In article <1992Dec23.035220.25160@cs.mun.ca> robin2@garfield.cs.mun.ca (Robin Collier) writes:
>Well, I know I have heard several ways of getting out of a full nelson, but I
>was recenctly told by Nick Cerio at a seminar that if someone actually gets 
>you in a full nelson, there is no way out of it.  He said that all effective

	I've had success escaping from a nelson by putting my palms on my 
forehead and straightening my back, legs, and arms at the same time.


Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts,rec.arts.dance,rec.folk-dancing
From: sog@craycos.com (Steve Gombosi)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Agreed: rec.martial-arts hierarchy
Date: 21 Dec 92 17:28:35 GMT
Organization: Cray Computer Corporation

In article <BzK46M.FAD@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca> rtang@sunee.uwaterloo.ca (The One Your Mother Warned You About!) writes:
>In article <BzJIMI.JHJ@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> shulick@navajo.ucs.indiana.edu writes:
>>
>>I think we should really break up this group.  martial arts as a term is
>>so general.  hapkido, judo, 200 types of karate, gun-fu, PCP-fu.. :)
>>This is just a little suggestion, no need to flame. :)

Sorry, Sam...this is USENET. Flamage is a way of life.

>What about other "major" style of MA.
>Aikido, taichi,TKD, various KungFu styles isnt on the list, I would 
>think the have as much popularity as those you've suggested.
>So it could get hairy as to which MA should warrant its own subgroup.
>Maybe divide it along the lines of "hard" styles vs "soft",
>"internal" vs "external", "weapons"?? I don't know. Anyone has any
>ideas?


Absolutely! If we subdivide it finely enough, we'll each be able to have
our very own little newsgroups. This way, we can post lengthy descriptions
of things we think we understand without running the risk of having our
assumptions challenged! We'd never have to be exposed to any messy,
unfamiliar terminology, never have to face the idea that others might have 
come up with different solutions to similar problems - in fact, we'd never
have to *think*. What a wonderful idea! Then we could conserve bandwidth
by abolishing the newsgroups altogether - all we'd *really* need to do
is send email to ourselves! 


Look, Sam...I *know* the discussion here can get a little confusing, but
part of the joy of this little group is the cross-fertilization between
arts. The posting volume isn't particularly high (check the comp.lang
groups sometime!), and it provides a place for the eternal newbies to
ask the dreaded "which art should I take" question. If we split, we'll
just cross-post everything anyway ;-).

Steve
From: scheid@danzan.EBay.Sun.COM (David Scheid)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: dangers in falling
Date: 21 Dec 1992 19:13:45 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Distribution: usa
Reply-To: scheid@danzan.EBay.Sun.COM
NNTP-Posting-Host: danzan.ebay.sun.com



In article 13219@dosgate, elliott.chapin@canrem.com (elliott chapin) writes:
>I'd be interested in hearing what people have to say about falling on
>hard surfaces; some ways that are fine on mats won't work away from
>mats.

Side-falls of course. Back falls can cause injury to the spine.
Face falls can injure the flesh of the forearms. That can cause
you to lose some fighting ability. Even a poor side-fall can cause
injury to the hip or arm, but chances are more favorable.

---
Dave Scheid - All Disclaimers Apply


Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: moore@esseye.si.com (David Moore)
Subject: Re: Finishing techniques
Organization: Smiths Industries
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 21:31:38 GMT

I'm lost! My knowledge of Aiki(do) indicates that locks do not (I repeat
do not) rely on pain for effectiveness. If you've been taught that, then
I believe someone is feeding you @#$%. Yes, pain is nice, but the technique
alone should be sufficient. By the way, you can't just stand there with
any given technique and let the person reorient themselves. Only by
pinning them (imo) can you truly control someone -- especially someone
larger than your self.

I'll admit that my experience with Aiki(do) is minimal -- I just started
in '84. My Karate knowledge is a bit more comprehensive. 

-- 
David Moore                    | moore@si.com
Smiths Industries              |
Grand Rapids Michigan          | my comments are my own -- not my employers'.
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: campbell@psych.psy.uq.oz.au (Campbell Dickson)
Subject: Re: qi - any simple exercises?
Keywords: de-mystification 
Organization: Psychology Department, University of Queensland
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 03:21:27 GMT

In article <1gtj5uINN9qs@agate.berkeley.edu>, robinson@cogsci.Berkeley.EDU (Michael Robinson) writes:


|>  19. Slowly lower your hands, palms facing, 6 to 8 inches apart, to the
|>      level of your lower abdomen.
 
 
|> Relax.
|> 
|> You should observe (in increasing order of ch'i strength):
|> 
|>    1. Mottled hands
|>    2. Warm, tingly sensations in the palms
|>    3. A "repelling magnets" feeling between the palms (for most people,
|>       this is the level at which they become convinced)
|>    4. An "outside-the-body" feeling of mechanically linked motion in the
|>       arms.

I just tried this (things are winding down for Christmas) and observe that you
can get <3> using just the instructions above. Also as you(I) move the hands away from the position described the strength of the sensation decreases  (inreased muscle tension in the arms?), so it seems that relaxation is at least as important as anything else.

It also seems that the repelling magnets sensation comes with the exhalation,
and there's a sensation of suction associated with inhalation. I wonder if
there's a neat physiological explanation - something to do with small changes in blood pressure perhaps?

Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: drury@helix.nih.gov (Richard Drury)
Subject: Re: Thai kickboxing
Organization: National Institutes of Health, Bethesda
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1993 10:21:32 GMT

bobsarv@microsoft.com (Bob Sarver) writes:
>
>Just curious: when a newcomer posts a question to this newsgroup, is it 
>normal procedure for someone like Mary to come out, guns blazing, and pull 
>this kind of stunt?  
>
>Someone should post a disclaimer at the top of the newsgroup:  
>WARNING--this newsgroup has the following sacred cows that are not to be 
>touched.  
>WARNING--the following "frequent posters" in this newsgroup have axes 
>to grind.

Bob, Bob, try to remain calm.  As the FAQ clearly states, anyone
who wants to trash TKD has got to get past Mary to do it.  You
have read the FAQ, haven't you?  I know you've had a few beers,
but that's no reason to get belligerent.  Remember, all you know
are some useless TKD kicks.  You haven't learned any
giant-killer muay Thai moves yet.  And, uh, look down.  You're
standing on *gravel*.  ;-)
--
Richard A. Drury                    National Institutes of Health
drury@helix.nih.gov                 31/B3C27, Bethesda, MD, USA
From: hahn@plugh.network.com (Peter Hahn)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Just Curious...
Date: 21 Dec 92 19:45:05 GMT
Organization: Network Systems Corporation

In article <50040221@hpcupt1.cup.hp.com> rterry@hpcupt1.cup.hp.com (Ray Terry) writes:
>
>The Koreans, as do the Japanese and Chinese and ..., like to claim that they
>can trace the martial arts "in their homeland" back to some very early date
>in history.

Nor are they the only ones.  I've seen all sorts of sources trying to
draw a link between modern day Western boxing and the sort that was
practiced in the ancient Greek Olympics.  Nope.  Present day boxing
dates back to the end of the 1700's, no more.

"Greaco-Roman wrestling", as presently practiced, has even shakier
connections to any putative Golden Age.


-- 
Peter Hahn           |hahn@network.com|"...Ch'en worked in a drugstore on the
7600 Boone Ave. N    |+1 612 424-4888 |second story...and at noon each day he
Brooklyn Park, MN USA|                |would leave for lunch in an eccentric
55428                |                |way: he would stroll out the window..."
From: azw@aber.ac.uk (Andrew Michael Woodward)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Self-Defense Books
Date: 24 Dec 92 10:06:35 GMT
Organization: University of Wales, Aberystwyth

In article <1h7rqgINNmu7@early-bird.think.com> shaig@Think.COM (Shai Guday) writes:
>In article <BzFpBJ.2sE@sju.edu>, tmoody@sju.edu (T. Moody) writes:
>|> 
>|> Trained martial artists are likely to know a
>|> great deal about delivery of power, timing, and distancing.  They may
>|> not know so much about patterns of attack/assault, targets, and
>|> confrontations. 

A favourite hobby horse of mine. The key word in martial arts is 'arts'.
They are ancient, traditional, stylised and philosophised. They are also
useful in self defence but in an informationally inefficient way.

Self defence puts the emphasis on 'martial' and to hell with the rest.
Effective self defence is minimalist and efficient, and the philosophies
involved are purely those of natural selection.

If you wish deeper inner knowledge, etc. Martial arts are the thing.
If you merely wish to be as invulnerable as possible as quickly as possible
look to the better ex-military self defence courses.

Its all horses for courses really. You wouldnt hire Rembrant to paint your
shed.

Happy Xmas
From: sog@craycos.com (Steve Gombosi)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Stupid Religious Views
Date: 22 Dec 92 19:51:53 GMT
Organization: Cray Computer Corporation

In article <1992Dec19.162717.1@eagle.wesleyan.edu> ttrimble@eagle.wesleyan.edu writes:
>In article <1992Dec18.104506.803@hls.com>, silatman@hls.com writes:
>> 
>> 
>>                THE OLD MAN HAD TIMING!
>>                by Khalid Khan.
>> 
>>    Some people in today's society think that all talk about
>> God and prayer should be kept for a time different than
>
>[lots o' bullshit and a cute story deleated] 
>
>>    Timing!
>> 
>>    The old man had timing. 
>> 
>>    For power and speed you can work at it yourself.
>> But for Timing you need Seeing. This is not just
>> physical Seeing from the eyeballs, but a kind of 
>> Spiritual Seeing, which is infinitely faster.
>> 
>>    For this second kind of Seeing, you need
>> the Grace of God. You need to pray to Him, because
>> without that Seeing all your technique,
>> all your power, all your speed adds to nothing.
>> 
>>                Salam Alaikum!
>> 
>>                               Khalid Khan
>> 
>	seems funny that you should say that this 90 year old master has an
>attribute that has something to do with YOUR narrow little religion!  i would
>tend to think that this 90 year old master is a BUDDHIST and has INTUITION
>rather than some sort of "spiritual seeing".  also seems funny that the KEY to

Oh, dear....

Unfortunately, one of the Japanese terms I've seen used for this "intuition"
is "shin gan" == "spirit/mind/heart seeing". 

I do so hate to throw cold water on an entertaining flame war...


>the martial arts should be a religious belief comming origionally from the
>middle-east.  i would immagine that the buddhist beliefs around which most
>martial arts were developed would lend more aid in the understanding and
>mastery of the arts.

Which arts? Many Silat styles have a strong Muslim emphasis. Aikido and
many kenjutsu systems have significant Shinto components. There are
Buddhist, Taoist, and *MUSLIM* Chinese boxing systems. At the risk
of making a *really* bad Japanese pun, Zen isn't everything.


Hey...everyone just take a deep breath and relax. Khan, welcome back -
I disagree with you most of the time, but I'd be the last to want to 
silence you. Just don't post any more "personal ads" here, ok? ;-)

>	perhaps i am biased.  i seem to be unable to pray to HIM because i
>burst into fits of laughter at the stupidity of HIS religion...

Nothing narrow-minded there, nosirreee!


Steve
From: scheid@danzan.EBay.Sun.COM (David Scheid)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Stupid Religious Views
Date: 23 Dec 1992 16:42:09 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Distribution: usa
Reply-To: scheid@danzan.EBay.Sun.COM
NNTP-Posting-Host: danzan.ebay.sun.com

In article 4436@unisql.UUCP, wrat@unisql.UUCP (wharfie) writes:
>In article <1992Dec22.195153.2593@craycos.com> sog@craycos.com (Steve Gombosi) writes:
>> Aikido and many kenjutsu systems have significant Shinto components. 
>
>	What are the Shinto components of aikido?

I'll give it a go. 

1.) How about a picture of O'Sensei at the Shomen.

2.) Are the Aikidokas taught all things possess Ki? Even Rocks? 
    Then the Shinto belief that Kami are ever pervasive is transmitted.

3.) Any type of religious ceremonies at promotions. Most promotions have
    religious undertones not immediately recognizable to a westerner,
    therefore they are pretty inocouous.

---
Dave Scheid - All Disclaimers Apply


Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: cs922096@ariel.yorku.ca (JOSE J. MONTANO)
Subject: Re: Thai kickboxing
Organization: York University, Toronto, Canada
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 04:32:27 GMT

         Just take a look at Don Wilson.  He came from Pai Lum Kung-Fu
as primarily a forms expert and ended up being one of the best if not
THE
finest kickboxer regardless of kickboxing style.......I agree that it is
the person and not the style which determines the success in competition
or actual combat.



|)  Joe
From: landman@hal.COM (Howard Landman)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Finishing techniques
Date: 22 Dec 92 01:41:17 GMT
Organization: HaL Computer Systems, Inc.
NNTP-Posting-Host: bang.hal.com

In article <42441@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> ph2sct@sdcc14.ucsd.edu (Dzu Nguyen) writes:
>I think what I would do is put a nikyo (aikido, the 'tupperware'
>technique).

According to my sensei many years ago, if someone is drunk or drugged you
have to be very careful trying to apply "pain" techniques.  Most people
who learn nikkyo to an initial level of competence are depending heavily
on that pain.  Sensei said that sankyo was much better, especially for
escorting a drunk out of a bar, since it has a higher proportion of direct
physical control regardless of pain.

"Tupperware"?  I don't understand the metaphor.

	Howard
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts