HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: bil@burka..aix.kingston.ibm.com (Igor Belchinskiy)
Subject: Re: Russian poetry
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 92 13:22:47 GMT
Organization: Be. I am.

In article <18oimdINNla8@agate.berkeley.edu> muh@physics.Berkeley.EDU (Yury M. Mukharsky) writes:
>In article <1992Sep10.162839.48127@watson.ibm.com> bil@burka..aix.kingston.ibm.com (Igor Belchinskiy) writes:
>
>I think that you and above mentioned netters, who shares yo understanding
>of understanding  should stop posting, and leave ALL discussions to God.

you definitely underestimate the role of God. *He* (or she? anyway, both)
left all discussions to mankind.

>And since God either does not exist or do not use Usenet, we'll have nice
>and quite group. 

Wrong. God use Usenet - ever heard of Oracle? and God's goal isn't
niceness and quietness. Nastyness, maybe, - look at Thora.
>
>If you do not agree, you just _must_ write big, profeccional encyclopedia
>of Russian literature, since you are the only man in the world who understand
>it completely. 

Whoever told you that - lier. Simple lesson of logic for you.
a - Understanding
b - completely
do not understand completely = ~a & b
not (do not understand completely) = ~ (~a & b) = (~~a | ~b) = a | ~b =
understand completely = a & b

now, a | ~b is not the same as a & b

>Meanwhile, take care of youself and do not flight Aeroflot,
>your life is precious to mankind.

Wrong. To God. So I can fly any airline - but for you may be better
to try to fly the same plane as me - just for your security.

>>look at mathematics. There some non-trivial things.
>
>BTW, I always wanted to know why 1+1=2. Not how or what, why?

Yes, it's one of that non-trivial things that I mentioned. Very hard to explain
to unprepared. But don't worry - it's not as difficult as Gumilev -
so maybe in your next life. Pray and ask God.
Btw, fyi - very often 1+1=10

>>Hope, I didn't abuse anybody.
>
>Your hopes are vain.

Oh, sorry, sorry, sorrow.

>Yury

	-igor
From: patricia@cco.caltech.edu (Patricia M. Schwarz)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
Subject: Re: Russian Culture through California sunshades
Keywords: all of the above
Date: 6 Sep 92 05:38:41 GMT
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena


>Best wishes, Patricia, with your book, though it, most
>surely, will be yet one more Western book about Russian
>underground (as one I've seen about jazz where instead
>of jazz was discussed popular music written by official 
>composers). Like if I wrote about Western underground
>and instead of writing about Aleister Crowley and
>Monte Cazzazza wrote about U2 and The Silence of the Lambs.
>Somehow, Western writers miss most interesting things
>(like one girl I knew, who wrote PhD on Russian literature
>and did not know who is Saltykov-Shchedrin).

>Misha.

Thank you for your best wishes. But remember this is not *my* book,
this book is by a Russian woman and an American woman. My Russian
friend grew up in this underground culture. I would never take it upon
myself to "explain" Russian culture to Americans; that is for a Russian
to do. But we will weave together her Russian knowledge and insights
and my contrasting American views; and hopefully we'll wind up
with something that is authentic and true, but at the same time
interesting and understandable to American readers.

So our book will not have one monolithic point of view. Actually,
we hope to allow many people to speak for themselves about their
own experiences in the wide variety of literary, political, musical
and other movements that made up "the underground culture."

-patricia@cco.caltech.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
From: galina@watson.ibm.com (Galina Kofman)_
Subject: Re: Bulgakov
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1992 17:56:55 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

In  <1992Sep08.212514.21409@watson.ibm.com>  bil@burka..aix.kingston.ibm.com (Igor Belchinskiy) writes:
> In article <1992Sep08.203643.27536@watson.ibm.com> galina@watson.ibm.com (Galina Kofman)_ writes:
> >
> >Not that I could suppose for a moment that Bulgakov was an antisemite, but I for
> >one, would not read a book by an antisemite or racist.
>
> But what if that book wouldn't have distinctive label -
> "written by antisemit and racist"? :-)

Right, the problem is, who do you define as an anisemit.

> >I would not want my dollars to support the course that I repel.
> This is completely other issue.
> At least, you can get it in the library :-)

"Free" libraries are not free.  Most funding comes out of property taxes.

Actually, with me it usually works other way around: I buy books when I think
author was unjustly labeled. I bought Rushdie's "Satanic Verses"(did not finish)
and Kipling's "Just So Stories"(pure joy) for that reason.  I did not read
Gogol since the 8th grade of school, probably because he left unpleasant
aftertaste then.  I don't know if would consider him antisemit if I read his
books now, but since then I never had a desire to pick up any of his works.
>
> >Also, I don't believe an antisimit or racist  is capable of writing something of
> >a general humane value.
>
> This is really serious question. Seems that as long as they do not
> touch area of their deficiency they may write as anybody else.
> Though they would touch :-)

Right again, they would touch, by definition.

> But, of course, we can always restrict ourselves almost any way we want
> without sacricfying (sp?) anything - there would be more than enough
> left.

Precisely, there is so much to read without being mosachistic.
>
> Oh, yes - what about Dostoevskiy?

What about Dostoevskiy?

Galya.
From: dleschin@FEDS66.PRIME.COM (Dmitri Leschiner)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
Subject: Re: Master and Margaret and other books
Date: 9 Sep 92 23:20:17 GMT
Reply-To: "soc.culture.soviet via ListServ" <SCS-L@indycms.iupui.edu>

>Date:         Wed, 9 Sep 1992 13:07:25 GMT
>From: Andrei Zheludev <zhelud@DRFMC.CENG.CEA.FR>


>In article <9209082144.AA15599@feds46.Prime.COM> "soc.culture.soviet via
> ListServ" <SCS-L@indycms.iupui.edu> writes:
>>> From: "Mikhail S. Verbitsky" <verbit@BRAUER.HARVARD.EDU>
>>> ....
>>> Note that I (and kids) don't mean by Satanism that we all should
>>> get a machine gun and kill people in the church. I mean rather...
>>
>>That matters little - about as little as what the Bolsheviks and the
>>Nazis meant by Bolshevism and Nazism, respectively.
>>
>>> Anyway, I doubt that there is even one Christian book
>>> as good as Master and Margaret.

>>You should have read one, for a change.


>Let's take a look at the most famous one, the Old Testament (stop!
>I know it's jewish, but it's acknowledged by the Chrisians all the same).
>All the patriarchs were mean, nasty and dishonest.

Comparing with (x-)soviet scientists, probably.

>                                                   Moses just went
>killing the eldest child in every non-jewish family in Egypt just
>to force local OVIR give the jews their visas. Ok, _he_ didn't do
>it, but our God did it for him.

I guess you agree means doesn't matter, that's goal what matters.
I was always hating jews asking for visas. Shit, mean dishonest nasty
jews could get their visas, and honest egyptians couldn't!!!

>                                In any case, I peronally
>would prefere hell with Woland in charge to heaven with Jacob.

Hell personally would prefer you there too.
Ever been meeting with Jacob?

>I don't completely agree with Misha too.
>What does he call a Christian book? A _religious_ book? If so,
>his statement is true. Bulgakov was a _talanted_ writer, and those
>seldome write religious books.

You should have read one, for a change.
(BTW, did you read OT you so gladly referring to?)

>                               A book following the spirit of
>Christianyty? If this is what Misha meant he is wrong. Dostoevsky
>is probably better.

How do you know Dostoevsky (or Bulgakov, what's matter?) was following it?
He told you himself, or you've read that at foreword?

Dmitry
From: bil@burka..aix.kingston.ibm.com (Igor Belchinskiy)
Subject: Re: On Bulgakov's antisemitism
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 92 19:37:46 GMT
Organization: Be. I am.

In article <2532@cronos.metaphor.com> covdy@cronos.metaphor.com (Ivan Covdy) writes:
>In article <18ovueINNnhk@agate.berkeley.edu>, muh@physics.Berkeley.EDU (Yury M. Mukharsky) writes:
>> In article <88554@netnews.upenn.edu> sergei@upenn5.hep.upenn.edu (Sergei Borodin) writes:
>> >  What about a humanist and an antisemite Solzhenitsyn? As Misha Verbitsky
>>                 ^^^^^^^^
>> Is he?
>> 
>> Yury
>
>I've never seen anything more humane than "Archipelago Gulag".
>
>I was impressed that Solzhenitsyn was able to understand everybody:
>a Kum (NKVD boss); a former dvoryanin who turned himself into a last
>bastartd (or if female, into a whore); a guy who helped nazis in 
>killing his own people (Vlasovets), etc., etc., etc.
>
>Interesting, that Sozhenitsyn didn't blame anybody for anything...
>After finishing "A.G", I tried to be more tolerant, too.
>
>
>-- 
>  Ivan Covdy, covdy@shemesh.metaphor.com, METAPHOR Inc.,  CA,  USA
> *** People are looking for a Mind somewhere in the Universe,      ***
> *** because on the Earth they've been finding only the Stupidity. ***

Next stage would be forgiveness. (Not a flame)
Solzh wouldn't go there.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
From: bil@burka..aix.kingston.ibm.com (Igor Belchinskiy)
Subject: Re: Open letter to Patricia
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 92 18:18:29 GMT
Organization: Be. I am.
Keywords: Russian culture, Russian soul, Bulgakov, Pasternak...

In article <1992Sep9.164812.23092@ugle.unit.no> ap@levangerhs.no (Andrei Prasolov) writes:
>Keywords: Russian culture, Russian soul, Bulgakov, Pasternak...
>   Dear Patricia,
>Do not listen to all these angry (or trying to look angry) men!
>You are really "molodets"! 
                 ^^^^^^^^
Sexist and gay  remark. Perversive - your dear is female at least.
Probably racist too - red cheek "molodetc" about black female.
UnPCish!

>Probably we shall understand ourselves better
>if we know how we look like "from outside".

Look to the mirror - or go to the library. Lot of crap there.
Though when one doesn't understand yourself - asylum is better place
to consult, russian soul (re)search department.
    
>     Yours sincerely
>
>              Andrei PRASOLOV
>              Hoegskolen i Levanger
>              Kirkegt 1, 7600 Levanger
>              Norway
>
>Tel. office 47-76-12656 
>Telefax 47-76-12690
>E-mail AP@LEVANGERHS.NO  

	yours dutyfully

		igor,
		sprava za uglom,
		za tret'ei kirpichinoi nalevo, pod mostom

I telefon gde-to byl. Ili bobry sgryzli?
Ne pomnu, sovsem uzh s vami umayalsya, s kul'turtregerami.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
From: Robert_Broughton@mindlink.bc.ca (Robert Broughton)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
Subject: Re: Philip Morris
Date: 13 Sep 92 00:04:22 GMT
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Distribution: world

> Michael Gorelik writes:
> 
> Don't know about drug pusher, but Philip Morris Cos., a diversified
> manufacturer
> of consumer and food products going to build a large
> manufacturing plant in Russia.

If Philip Morris is so "diversified", why aren't they setting up a factory to
produce something that Russians really need, like condoms, soap, toilet paper,
paint, food...

Actually, I'm pleased the hear that there has been so much recent improvement
in the Russian economy, that they can now afford:

        a) the short-term productivity loss (smokers have a 42% higher
absenteeism rate), and

        b) the long-term higher health care costs

that will result from having a population of smokers. Because of this new-found
prosperity, I conclude that Russia no longer needs the billions in foreign aid
that are being talked about.

> 
> Those who would like to take away our freedom to inhale.

My right to breathe takes precedence over your "right" to inhale.

--
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*

Robert Broughton    Robert_Broughton@mindlink.bc.ca

"We calm and reassure. We embrace people with the message that we're
all in it together. That our leaders are infallible and that there is
nothing, absolutely nothing wrong." - Miles Drentell, _thirtysomething_
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
From: aps@sonia.math.ucla.edu (Alexei Stolboushkin)
Subject: Re: Shafarevich
Organization: UCLA Mathematics Department
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 92 06:48:47 GMT

In article <88543@netnews.upenn.edu> sergei@upenn5.hep.upenn.edu (Sergei Borodin) writes:
>
>
> You mean antisemitism is a Russian national shame? Come on.

well, I admit that some people may rather be proud of it. Are you?

>>We also know, that Belov et al. are not just writers, but
>>organizers of the ``Pamyat' '' 
>
>  Do we? Something new to me. Who told you that? Semen Reznik?

now it is my turn to say ``come on''. If I say you that Hitler
was an organizer of nazists, would you object that, formally, he
wasn't the commander of ``shturmovykh otrjadov'' (translation?).

>>society and of ``black hundred''
>>press like ``Den' '', ``Nash sovremennik'', etc. They are
>>public figures of the very definite orientation.
>
> Right. The orientation is the survival of Russian culture. But do you
> think that :"raz spasai Rossiju, to znachit bej zhidov". 

it was not me who introduced the slogan. Also, answer honestly, from
whom Russia should be saved, according to the notorious authors of
``Nash sovremennik''?

In addition, please clarify, is this ``Russian culture'' ``russkaja
kul'tura', or ``rossijskaja'' (that is, of Russia), and what, do you
think, is the difference?

> I didn't read "Den'", but was a subscriber to "Nash sovremmennik",
> and I still think it was worth my time and money. Although, it 
> published sometimes quite stupid articles, but in general many
> of its authors (Belov, Rasputin, Kozhinov, Shafarevich .....) were
> worth to read.
>
>>this is exactly the point. We know that Belov, Rasputin, Kozhinov,
>>and Kunjaev are nazists NOT from their writings but due to their 
>>public activity.
>
> Who are "we"?  I'm not among those "knowers".  

This is perhaps a question of terminology. Let's call them
``bortsy za ochischenie russkoj kul'tury ot zhidomassonskogo
proniknovenija, vystupajuschie za vozvrat k sil'nomu monolitnomu
gosudarstvu na russkoj natsional'noj osnove v granitsakh Rossijskoj
imperii''. Now, if we will use the straight wording instead of
some euphemisms above, we will get a dictionary definition of
fascism.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
From: bil@burka..aix.kingston.ibm.com (Igor Belchinskiy)
Subject: Re: The least nationalistic nation
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 92 14:03:04 GMT
Organization: Be. I am.

In article <SCS-L%92090915373948@INDYCMS.BITNET> "soc.culture.soviet via ListServ" <SCS-L@indycms.iupui.edu> writes:
>>American culture is misunderstood by newcomers from Russia as easily as
>>the Russian one by Americans. It takes equally long time to realize
>>that American culture has a lot more to offer than baseball and Oprah show.
>
>Doesn't any "culture" include those folks who arrive and
>"misunderstand?"  

No, it doesn't. 

>I mean they're there too, part of it all.

Somali or Haitian refugee without English are part of American culture,
and speak in prose but don't know that?
What do you mean by "culture". Or better look in decent dictionary.

>And the more the locals deny it, the more it seems reasonable to
>infer that the new-comers are very important.

??? try to say once more.
>
>-Mka
From: mmarkish@FEDS46.PRIME.COM (Mark Markish x2799)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
Subject: Exegesis news
Date: 14 Sep 92 13:33:14 GMT
Reply-To: "soc.culture.soviet via ListServ" <SCS-L@indycms.iupui.edu>

| From: "Yury M. Mukharsky" <muh@PHYSICS.BERKELEY.EDU>
|
| > >>what was so good about Avel, for example.
| > ...
| > I mean he was a crook. Plain straigt-forward crook. The fact that crook
| > was murdered does not make him saint.
|
| >Big news in exegesis are coming! Some recent evidence concerning
| >his misdeeds, or what? Dead Sea Scrolls reveal the truth?
|
| did not he deceive his father by putting
| a goat's skin to imitate his brother's facial hair (abundant), as thus
| got a blessing?

Sorry to disappoint you, Yuri,
it was not Avel, but J.v.Ribbentropp.

Spruce up your basic knowledge of basic facts:
pick up your free copy of the Hollywood Bible
from your local Clinton support group.

| From the same author :
|
| Why don't you aim your energy against Hollywood producers, filling
| brains of poor mankind with violence, and even more dangerous, stupidity.
From: covdy@cronos.metaphor.com (Ivan Covdy)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
Subject: Re: Bulgakov
Date: 8 Sep 92 16:51:10 GMT
Organization: Metaphor Computer Systems, Mountain View, CA  USA

in article <1992Sep08.142500.53741@watson.ibm.com>, bil@burka..aix.kingston.ibm.
com (Igor Belchinskiy) says:

Stuff about foreigners, reading Master & Margarita:

# One can - and you may see how looking at Ms. Schwarz :-)
#
# They read it different way - one more work of fiction,
# magic realism, conflict of Pilat, very amusing, all that labels, etc.
#
# The same as when Ms. Schwarz make referencies to Pasternak -
# kogda Pasternakom i ne pahlo (when there is no any connection
# to real Pasternak).
#
# They cut it "po ih merke" (according to their tastes
# and level of understanding). It's unavoidable.

[....]

Oh, no!

Again this shit about "enigma of the Russian soul" and that
the foreigners will never-never-never-never-never understand
the Russian culture because of its superiority.

Talking about Bulgakov, I propose to expell him (post factum)
from any honorable organization he belonged to, because it is a
well-known fact that he was antisemitic :-)


-- 
  Ivan Covdy, covdy@shemesh.metaphor.com, METAPHOR Inc.,  CA,  USA
 *** People are looking for a Mind somewhere in the Universe,      ***
 *** because on the Earth they've been finding only the Stupidity. ***
From: RUBAN@hartford.bitnet ("Timur Y. Ruban")
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
Subject: RE: Re: Bulgakov
Date: 8 Sep 92 20:00:00 GMT
Reply-To: "soc.culture.soviet via ListServ" <SCS-L@indycms.iupui.edu>

From:         Andrei Zheludev <zhelud@DRFMC.CENG.CEA.FR>

>In article <1992Sep7.040836.2097@cco.caltech.edu> patricia@cco.caltech.edu
> (Patricia M. Schwarz) writes:
>>Is anyone out there interested in a discussion of Master and Margaret?
>>
>
>I have some news for you. M&M (just like any other _good_ piece of literature)
>is much better off when it's not discussed, but simply read and enjoyed.
>
>AAAAaaaaAAAAAaaAAAzzzzzzzzzZZZZzzzzZZZZZzzzzzzZZZZZzzzzzzz

Two thumbs up!!!  I totally agree with you.

Still, it's much more interesting to talk about "Master.." then to argue whose
language is better and who took over whom in god-knows-which century.  Let's
have some fun!

Timur.
From: SCATTONL@snycenvm.bitnet ("Linda H. Scatton")
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
Subject: Re: Kestler
Date: 10 Sep 92 21:31:14 GMT
Reply-To: "soc.culture.soviet via ListServ" <SCS-L@indycms.iupui.edu>
Organization: State University of New York - Central Administration

Try Arthur Koestler, "Darkness at Noon."
From: covdy@shemesh.metaphor.com (Ivan Covdy)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
Subject: Re: Tuk-tuk....
Date: 10 Sep 92 16:33:06 GMT

in article <BuC4F2.IqE@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, didinsky@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (didinsky garry) says:
[...]
> 
>     ps.  Reading Ms. Schwart's messages reminded me of a joke:
> 
>     Armyanskomu radio pishet storoj Vasilii Ivanovich Zaitsev iz derevni
>     imeni Dvadtsatogo s'ezda Partii.  On prosit chto byi myi syigrali dlya
>     nego ego lyubimoe klasicheskoe proizvedenie, pervyi kontsert....(just
>     think of something very refined).
> 
>     Armyanskoe radio otvechaet:  Vas'ka, ne pizdi.

Nichego tak anekdotik!

Dejstvitel'no, trudno poverit', chto mnogie v etoj gruppe tak uzh
shibko duhovny i s takoj vot bol'ju v serdtse vosprinimajut, kogda
russkuju kulturu/literaturu marajut "eti chernye amerikanskie baby".

Tak chto, tovarishchi-radejushchije-za-russkuju-literaturu, 
chitajte otvet Armjanskogo radio!

-- 
  Ivan Covdy, covdy@shemesh.metaphor.com, METAPHOR Inc.,  CA,  USA
 *** People are looking for a Mind somewhere in the Universe,      ***
 *** because on the Earth they've been finding only the Stupidity. ***
From: vadim@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
Subject: Re: The least nationalistic nation
Date: 10 Sep 92 14:11:32 EDT

In article <SCS-L%92090916353269@INDYCMS.BITNET>, SCATTONL@snycenvm.bitnet ("Linda H. Scatton") writes:
> ....
>   So, with respect to your example, I myself can't identify with Venichka be-
> cause I've never been drunk, not to mention desperate to get booze before the
> stores open, but there are many people out there who *can identify*, and they
> are not all in the xSU!  For me, personally, therefore, Erofeev is not a favo-
> rite, but I'm willing to agree with those who think he's a great writer because
> he captures this feeling so completely.

  Nice! I like how politely you said that. As to:

>   It's insulting and narrow-minded to claim that only insiders can take part in
> the riches which world cultures offer us.  Try a little tolerance instead, - an
> approach which is, unfortunately, in very short supply on this list.
 
  This is right. And not only in the list. The lack of tolerance is also
part of "soviet" culture. And that is why it came to this list.
> Linda Scatton
-V.
From: Dave Caulkins <dcaulkins@igc.apc.org>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
Date: 04 Sep 92 18:27 PDT
Subject: Re: Advice for travel between San Franc
Nf-ID: #R:equinox.unr.edu:4409:cdp:1474600035:000:221
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!dcaulkins    Sep  4 18:27:00 1992


2 years ago I went to Leningrad (now St. Pete),
SFO-Helsinki-Leningrad on Finnair.  It was not expensive and the
flight was smooth and well managed.  Obviously you should check
into conditions and prices in 1992.

Dave C
From: pv02@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (PETER VOROBIEFF)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
Subject: Re: Russian poetry?!
Date: 10 Sep 92 00:37:33 GMT
Organization: Lehigh University

Hi everybody!

Ya chto-to ne v'edu, figli vy vse ozvereli i na etu tetku iz kalteha
nabrosilis'? Ili ona chevo skazala?

Peter Vorobieff, brain meltdown, violent memory abuse and repeated 
brutal mental rape survivor for 24 years.

-- 
Thus spake Kalmoth the Vile, Slayer of the Seven Pigs of the North.