HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: dvf@kepler.unh.edu (David V Feldman)
Subject: Re: When is close close enough for just intonation
Keywords: intonation, intervals
Organization: University of New Hampshire  -  Durham, NH
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1992 00:02:15 GMT

In article <l8o3aoINN6c@calvin.usc.edu> alves@calvin.usc.edu (William Alves) writes:
>I'm afraid I don't understand the part about decaying amplitude and how
>that has anything to do with beats or frequency. A single piano tone
>often has beats in it, but that's because most strings are actually
>multiple strings which may be slightly out of tune.
>
Suppose I sound two (sine) tones which begin in phase but differ in frequency by
a minute amount.   The beating will be very slow.  For example, if the tones
differ in frequency by 1/100 cps (cycles per second) each beat will take
100 seconds.  If the process were stopped after only 50 seconds the effect
would be that of a single tone decaying in amplitude for 50 seconds.  Indeed,
if the sine tones were mixed and produced by a single loud speaker, there
would be no mathematical distinction, even in principle, between the two
situations.  Turning this backwards, a tone whose amplitude is decaying
has a pitch that is no more definite that the interval between the two
nearby tones whose simultaneity would produce the same decay.

>One person, using arguments similar to those above, tried to convince me
>that there is really no such thing as just intonation. And in the sense
>that the frequency of a tone is only exact when the duration of the tone
>is infinitely long, I suppose he was right. But my ears still insist that
>Partch's is not the same as tempered music.
>
>Bill Alves

I am an advocate and practitioner of music with rational intervals, or just
intonation in a general sense.  I do not know the arguments of the person
to whom you refer, but I would guess that there premises were sound but
they reached a false conclusion nevertheless.  There are no exact
measurements of physical values, but there are profound consequences to
increased precision.  The question under discussion, in a musical context,
is merely how much precision is enough.

David Feldman
From: basinski@biosci.arizona.edu (Mark Basinski)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Baby grand pianos-what to look for
Date: 19 Aug 92 18:21:10 GMT
Followup-To: rec.music.classical
Distribution: na
Organization: Univ. of Arizona

Here at the University of Arizona, the school of music came up with the
bone-headed idea of leasing pianos from some local music store, and then
auctioning them off at the end of the year, and starting all over again
the next year. Most of the pianos we get are Kawai's and while there aren't
too bad when they are new, they do NOT hold up well at all (these are 
used in the student practice rooms, and they get played for hours everday).
By the end of the year, even though they still look nice, the playing 
mechanism is noticably funky, and they sound really crappy and don't stay
in tune. Maybe you won't be giving your piano such hard use, but I'd
stay away from Kawai. Have you considered buying a used Steinway and having
it reconditioned? Sometimes you can get a really great instrument for a
great price (but you have to find a good qualitly piano that might need
some work, AND find a good piano technician).
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mark Basinski      Internet: basinski@biosci.arizona.edu
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: conrad@brahms.udel.edu (Jon Conrad)
Subject: Re: Gotterdammerung
Organization: University of Delaware
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 13:13:28 GMT

In article <MISHA.92Aug12101203@gargamel.cs.huji.ac.il> misha@gargamel.cs.huji.ac.il (Michael Pak) writes:

>   I've heard that there is a new version of the "Twilight" by James Levine, which is 
>considered to be one of the best versions (alongside with Solti's version). Can someone
>out there please post some references, opinions and suggestions as to which version do
>you prefer?

As with the whole series, the DG/Levine/Met GOETTERDAEMMERUNG is
beautifully played, and the superb orchestra is advantageously recorded.
Casting is strongest in the smaller roles:  the Gibichung royal pair are
embodied as well as you'll ever hear them (Cheryl Studer and Bernd
Weikl), and as in the rest of this RING Ekkehard Wlaschiha is a sizzling
Alberich.  Matti Salminen is also a strong Hagen in his third recording
of the role.  Hanna Schwarz is rather lightweight for Waltraute, but the
Rhinepersons and Norns (Helga Dernesch, Tatiana Troyanos, Andrea Gruber)
are excellent.

But the leads.  Sometimes Hildegard Behrens succeeds in making
Bruennhilde work "her own way" -- with a smallish soprano that becomes
monochrome when pressed into the demands of the role.  And she soars
fairly effectively through the Immolation, leaving one with a favorable
final impression.  But too much of the time she's just getting by, and
the tone becomes pressed and whiny.  Reiner Goldberg, on the other hand,
at moments sounds like he has the vocal material for a real Siegfried (I
sat up with pleasure at his first entrance).  But he shortly reveals
that his singing will be devoid of imagination or shaping, and sometimes
even tone.

All in all, no contest.  Solti and Co. still reign supreme in this work.

Jon Alan Conrad
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical,rec.music.bluenote,rec.music.makers,alt.exotic-music
From: elkies@ramanujan.harvard.edu (Noam Elkies)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Catch-23? (Re: Renaissance music misconceptions)
Date: 21 Aug 92 04:23:05 GMT
Organization: Harvard Math Department

In article <20AUG199208381895@eccles.caltech.edu>
inr@eccles.caltech.edu (I. Neill Reid) writes:
>         [...]   Then its the old Catch 22 - the style is unfamiliar, 
>so you don't perform it; and you don't perform it because the style is 
>unfamiliar. 

Um, aren't the two parts here the same?  I gather that the first should
read "the style is unfamiliar, *because* you don't perform it" or some
equivalent fix.  Anyway, there are a lot of new recordings of that
music coming out, so the style may be getting a lot more familiar
in choral circles.

--Noam D. Elkies (elkies@zariski.harvard.edu)
  Dept. of Mathematics, Harvard University
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: steve@fid.morgan.com (Steve Apter)
Subject: Re: Public Service Announcement
Organization: Morgan Stanley & Co., New York, NY
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 15:35:11 GMT

A clutch of CDs of Hamelin's recording of Sorabji's
Sonata #1 on Altarus has arrived at Tower Records
(NY), uptown branch at 65th and B'wy.  The stickered
price on this very short-measure CD is 17.99.

-------

"As he turned to face her, Dabney could see Reardon's
gaunt, lean-jawed profile haloed in the harsh light
of industrial processes.  "Sea-Org", she murmured."

Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: conrad@brahms.udel.edu (Jon Conrad)
Subject: Re: Cheryl Studer in the Sinopoli "Tannhauser"
Organization: University of Delaware
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 13:49:31 GMT

In article <1992Aug18.120932.9124@visual.com> rwh@visual.com (Rob Holzel) writes:

>But, wow, I can't describe how much I marveled at Cheryl Studer when I 
>finally got to Act II of Tannhauser.  This woman has pipes!  

>What I respond to is just the visceral THRILL of hearing a wonderful
>voice.  For some reason, hers is extremely appealing.  She makes me
>smile, then makes my mouth drop open in awe.  I'm just wild about her!

I feel the same way.  When I heard her, I just smiled, revelling in the
sound of a healthy well-produced voice, of a kind we don't often hear.
I mean, these days, all the sopranos with any minimal heft to their
voices are covering and darkening it to death to give it a spurious
"size" that will let them do the heavier (and better-paid) roles.
Unfortunately Mirella Freni has done this without wrecking her voice,
and had a long and honorable career, so we have Leona Mitchell and
Ileana Cotrubas et al doing it too.

But not Studer.  She lets it remain high-placed and bright (but not
overbright) and flexible.  This allows her the same repertory as many of
the lyric-coloraturas in the early part of the century (Tetrazzini,
Hempel, Siems all sang a wide variety of roles), including -- surprise!
-- some of the heavy Verdi the others are wrecking their voices to do.
(I just wish Studer wouldn't try to "color" her voice in Italian; she
should sing it with the same technique.)

>I guess I now have some catching up to do.  Is her work in the Sinopoli
>Tannhauser representative of her other roles?  

Yes, at least in the German rep.  As I said, though it's a fine voice
for lots of Italian stuff, Muti seems to be teaching her some garbage
about "proper sound."  She should tell him to stuff it, and be content
to sing a "German" Aida and so on.  This homogenizing of approaches is
one of the worst feature of our "internationalized" operatic age.

>Has she done The Ring?  

Sieglinde, for Haitink.  Despite the VERY low lie of the part, she's one
of the best (mostly lively and specific) on records.  Gutrune, for
Levine, also one of the best.

>Der Rosenkavalier?  Or *will* she?  

No Marschallin yet.  In time, no doubt....

>I just
>saw Jon Conrad say that she's set to do Meistersinger.  Fantastic!  

Let's see, what else has she recorded in German....

Salome, with Sinopoli (DG); outstanding
Empress (Frau ohne Sch), with Sawallisch (EMI); spectacular
Chrysothemis (Elektra), with Sawallisch (EMI)
Elsa (Lohengrin), to be released on Teldec this year
Senta (Flying Dutchman), I think with Sinopoli, to be released
  on DG
Queen of the Night (!!), with Marriner (Philips)
Constanze (Abduction), (Sony)

Someone said here that she's to make a recording (the first) of
Strauss's Liebe der Danae.  Good news, if true, though I have not yet
read this anywhere.

Jon Alan Conrad
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: ted@dgbt.doc.ca (Ted Grusec)
Subject: Re: John Cage is Dead
Organization: The Communications Research Centre
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 92 13:59:34 GMT

In article <1992Aug13.074926.2690@nuscc.nus.sg> Smoliar@ISS.nus.sg (Stephen Smoliar) writes:
>
>This is when I regret being isolated in a country whose news coverage ranges
>from non-existent to mediocre.  Will some kind soul please post a statement
>with the journalistic fundamentals (like where, when, and how)?  The word came
>to me from a colleague whose girlfriend picked it up off the wire at Singapore
>Broadcasting;  but if they never bothered to air his music, I doubt that they
>will give any air time to reporting his death.

He was a musician's musician rather than a listener's musician,
perhaps. Age 79, stroke, is all I got on the CBC news.  The CBC
usually has at least one program devoted to the artist's work
and this is usually on the day of death. But in this case, not a peep.
Perhaps such a program will come today. But the truth must be that
most music listeners don't know his music nor his influence and so his
passing is unnoticed.

-- 
==========================================================================
Ted Grusec    Communications Research Centre    (Govt. of Canada, DOC)
 3701 Carling Ave., Ottawa, Ont.K2H 8S2, CANADA  Internet: ted@dgbt.doc.ca
  Compuserve: 73607,1576  (613) 998 2762   Fax (613) 993 8657
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Opera Film Fantasy (OFF)
From: Ken Sherrill <KSSHC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Date: Monday, 17 Aug 1992 19:48:38 EDT
Organization: City University of New York/ University Computer Center

I often free associate when I go for my morning runs; I typically run to opera-
tic music in my mind's ear. (The second act of Aida is exactly five miles long.
The Semiramide overture is just over a mile and a half.) When free associating,
I sometimes start casting film versions of my favorite operas. I'll admit that
runner's high can do strange things. For example, I've cast a Mel Brooks pro-
duction of Elektra with Madeline kahn as Elektra, Anne Bancroft as Klytmnaestra
Bette Midler as Chrysothemis, Brooks as Aegisth, and Cleavon Little as Orest.

I am now moving on to the challenge of a Ring cycle. Having seen Dan Ackroyd's
Nixon, I know he would be the perfect Albericht. This led me to think of Eddie
Murphy as Loge and Woody Allen as Mime.

I know what happens to the strands in the hands of the 3 Norns, but is anyone
else punchy enough to pick up this thread?
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: roger@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: JOHN CAGE OUTRAGE
Originator: news@nimaster
Keywords: Pretentiousness
Organization: Princeton University
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 20:21:38 GMT

In article <21AUG199208415438@portal.lasc.lockheed.com> le01167@portal.lasc.lockheed.com (Ron Nadel (x2025)) writes:
>Haus Der Luge wrote:

>>It struck me recently that those who have been most nasty and rude 
>>towards John Cage's music (a lot of them have, of course, come out of the 
>>woodwork since his untimely death) ... are the people who need his music 
>>the most.

>Would you explain to us _non believers_ just what this is supposed to mean?
>What woodwork are we supposed to come out of?  And I suppose in your world
>if you don't like someone's music that means you're _rude_?

Wrong side of bed this morning, Ron?  

a) "nasty and rude" means what it means.  It means saying nasty and rude
things about Cage and his music.  I don't recall you doing that, but I
could be wrong.  Others have said such things here recently.

b) Nobody really cares whether you like Cage's music or not.  It's up
to you entirely.  But if you don't, we'll all be much happier if you can
tell us why in measured tones, unlike some people around here.

c) The woodwork is your choice too.  I'm partial to old oak, but some
people here strike me as mahogany types.  Others, knotty pine.

>He may have been a nice person with a gentle appearance, but Wagner was an
>asshole, and I love HIS music.

Great.  I happen to agree with all of that.  What about it?  

You may just ahve come in late.  Recently, you see, someone expressed
actual joy at Cage's death, and those of us who had learned from the
man, either directly or at a distance, were horrified.

Roger

Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: dbarker@camins.camosun.bc.ca
Subject: Re: A quick guide to different musical periods...
Organization: Camosun College
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 19:12:24 GMT

In article <JWA.92Aug20012124@vipunen.hut.fi>, jwa@vipunen.hut.fi (Jyrki J Wahlstedt) writes:
> In article <CB.92Aug18130216@tamarack13.timbuk> cb@tamarack13.timbuk (Chris Brewster) writes:
> 
>    William Sadler writes:
>       The problem I had was when they played Mahler's Organ Symphony.
>    Please identify this work further.  The Eighth?
> 
>    Chris Brewster
> ----------------------
>   Yes, I wondered the same thing myself and came to the same conclusion.
>   I can't remember that Mahler would have used organ in any other symphony.
>   Just that the nickname is not Organ Symphony, but "Symphonie der
>   Tausend" (Symphony of a Thousand) (that you probably know).

The closing pages of the Resurrection also feature an organ. On most
recordings, sadly, it is all but inaudible. Rattle's is a shining
exception - you can even hear the decay of the organ sound right at the end.
-- 
===============================================================
|Deryk Barker Computer Science Dept.  | Without music life    |
|Camosun College, Victoria, BC	      | would be a mistake    |
|Canada 			      | (Friedrich Nietsche). |
===============================================================
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: steve@fid.morgan.com (Steve Apter)
Subject: Re: Record Collectors Alert
Organization: Morgan Stanley & Co., New York, NY
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 16:44:02 GMT


Again, for those in search of the Altarus recording of Sorabji Sonata 1,
I discovered this weekend that J&R Music World in lower Manhattan has
renewed their stock.  It is puzzling that Tower is retailing this item
at 17.99, J&R at 9.99 ...  (No, I don't have the telephone number handy;
NY information is 212 555 1212, and it's free.)

Other items of interest:  Robert Saxton's _Caritas_, the "Ladder of
Escape" series on Attacca, Shapey's _Four Etudes_ for sol0 violin
on Titanic, Per Norgard's _Remembering Child_ on Marco Polo.

Record Hunter has a store-wide sale going this week (13.99, all imports).

------

I suppose I ought to mention that I don't have any connection with
either of these businesses.
From: smitra@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (Samindranath Mitra)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Parsifal
Date: 14 Aug 92 19:23:45 GMT
Article-I.D.: usenet.Bszn7M.LsG
Organization: Indiana University

Does anyone know if Jon Vickers ever recorded Parsifal on a major
or any other label? Are there any once bootlegged but now legal
recordings?

Also, do you all know when the Domingo/Norman/Levine Parsifal
is expected to come out? What's the rest of the cast rumored to 
be?


Sami Mitra
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: dvf@kepler.unh.edu (David V Feldman)
Subject: Re: Heisenberg indeterminacy and orchestration (was Re: When is close close enough for just intonation)
Keywords: intonation, intervals
Organization: University of New Hampshire  -  Durham, NH
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 20:18:34 GMT

In article <1992Aug13.075721.1169@news.cs.brandeis.edu> jacob@max.cc.brandeis.edu ( ) writes:
>In article <1992Aug12.232903.19191@newshost.unh.edu> dvf@kepler.unh.edu (David V Feldman) writes:
>
>>It is worth pointing out that orchestrators intuitively take account of
>>the distinction above: staccato writing is considered more idiomatic
>>for instruments with richer higher partials, or in high pitch instruments.
>
>But why then are violin bows longer than cello bows? :-) :-)
>
>Seriously though, isn't this profound statement just equivalent to the
>observation that high pitched instruments in general play faster than lower
>pitched ones?
>

I believe I was claiming more:  That given two instruments in the same
low range, staccato would me more ideomatic for the richer tone.  Even
where just a single instrument is involved, say a French horn, staccato
playing will demand a brassier tone.

>So far so good.
>
>Now, I might be mistaken, but are you sure the oboe, whose sound is supposedly
>rich in partials has lines that are notoriously faster than flutes whose sound
>supposedly lacks partials? If it is "idiomatic" to try to make pitches
>measurable (by the ear) as precisely as possible (what you call to make them
>definite), do you have any idea what might have happened there?

In rapid legato passage work there are psychological queues that reinforce
pitch perception.  Fast staccato in the low register of the flute is
notoriously difficult - it is hard to get the notes to ``speak,'' especially
without tonguing (which introduces transient high partials in the form of
noice.)   If one produces short low steady sine tone bursts one hears an
audible click at the onset of each tone - the higher partials.  If one
tries to suppress the click by shaping the envelop of the note, the pitch
becomes less definite by the other considerations I described.  It really
is a profound fact, but I may not be doing it justice.

David
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: chem91@Rosie.UH.EDU ("Bill Harrison (713)-743-2789")
Subject: Re: Bulent Arel
Reply-To: chem91@Rosie.UH.EDU
Organization: University of Houston
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 14:43:18 GMT

In article <2aqqPB1w165w@west.darkside.com>, k@west.darkside.com (K) writes:
>Hello, I am rather new to this Usenet thing...
>I shall come straight to the point:  I am a composer interested in 
>finding other composers who appreciate the music of Bulent Arel.  Has 
>anyone here even HEARD or Arel??
>Help.
>..k.
>!apple!uuwest!k
>or
><k@west.darkside.com>

--------------------------------------
Bulent Arel: a pupil of Ussachevsky and Luening at their electronic
music school at Colubmbia University, later a member of the faculty
at State University of New York at Stony Brook(?), I believe. 

One of his pieces (sorry, title forgotten) is featured on the recent
CRI CD entitled "Pioneers of Electronic Music" (a classic IMHO, also 
featuring early works of _music concrete_, electronic music and computer
music by Ussachevsky, Luening et al.), and I think an old CRI LP may 
have been devoted to Arel's compositions (presumably no longer available).

Bill


+ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\               /~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Bill Harrison,            \             /       "Be as radical as... |
| University of Houston, TX  >-----------<         reality itself"     |
| CHEM91@JETSON.BITNET      /             \                V. I. Lenin |
+ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~/               \~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
From: brian@quake.sylmar.ca.us (Brian K. Yoder)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: John Cage is Dead
Date: 17 Aug 92 02:59:12 GMT
Organization: Quake Public Access

In article <1992Aug13.143043.2010@menudo.uh.edu> chem91@Rosie.UH.EDU writes:
>In article <1992Aug12.225314.9339@dgbt.doc.ca>, ted@dgbt.doc.ca (Ted Grusec) writes:
>>Long live John Cage.

>Hear, hear!! And long live the small, brave, [fill in your own superlative]
>record companies who produce the discs of Cage's music and let us _decide
>for ourselves_ was to his greatness. (Usual disclaimers).

Small?  Probably.  Brave?  Come on.  

I'm all for letting people think whatever they want about Cage, and I happen 
to think he produced garbage, and I am contempuous of him and of those
pretentious "art lovers" who fawn at his feet (or grave as it were).  As 
someone who has done more to destroy good music than almost anyone else
this century, I would hope to see most music lovers applaud his passing.

--Brian
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: roger@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Rockin' with Ockhegem (was JOHN CAGE)
Originator: news@nimaster
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 20:16:14 GMT

In article <9fjyh-l@rpi.edu> mccomt@aix.rpi.edu (Todd M. McComb) writes:
>In article <1736l6INNjbv@agate.berkeley.edu> Vance Maverick writes:
>>In article <c1JuPB3w164w@sys6626.bison.mb.ca> Kevin Scott writes:
>>> No definition, just the idea that something in a piece should be fixed.
>>> Fixed enough that listening to it lends it some sort of recognition.

>An example I mentioned some months ago is Cage's Music For ___, which
>though not completely fixed is similar enough in the different realizations
>I have heard to easily identify it as the "same" piece.

>>I think this prejudice bars you from some pretty interesting musical
>>experience.

>A somewhat earlier example of this kind of ambiguity is the 15th century
>composer, Johannes Ockeghem.  In particular, his Missa Cuiusvis Toni can
>be sung in any of the four basic modes of the time (depending on musica
>ficta.)

Don't be so sure.  Some scholars have recently reinterpreted the title
to mean "Which tone?" rather than "whatever tone", i.e., it's a riddle
piece like Ockhegem's Prenez sur moi votre example.  In fact, they argue
that it should only be done in Phrygian mode.

Oh, and the way to do it in other modes is to change clefs, not ficta.
Ficta has no bearing on mode, in general.

Roger

Newsgroups: rec.music.classical