From: dfrancis@tronsbox.xei.com (Dennis Heffernan)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Gurps Supers is still broken : was Re: Best Super system
Date: 12 Aug 92 16:47:07 GMT
Organization: Xanadu Enterprises Inc.

In article <1992Aug12.044335.17088@news.unomaha.edu> PCHEM14@Zeus.unomaha.edu (FALL88) writes:
|All this says is that the enemies always bring enough force to win, so long
|as they are the ones with the initiave.  They don't have any limits, like
|manpower, weapons, etc, do they?  Or, they don't have any genre oriented

	If you can't bring enough firepower to win, why are you going?

|psych crocks, like megalomania or overconfidance.  Or that they don't have
|perfect data about how tough the heros are, like the heros are openly 
|advertising what calibre round it takes to penetrate thier hide and whatnot.

	See above -- if you don't know what you're doing, then why are you
doing it?

| 
|And you don't understand post-12 recoveries.  First, you are not guarenteed

	I understand them perfectly; I ran Champions from the time it came out
to the release of SuperWorld as a stand-alone game.

|one.  Second, it doesn't magically make you concious.  Or even close.  Keep
|in mind most people have REC less than 10.  And, considering that you were

	I have NEVER seen a super with less than 10 REC.  And it will indeed
bring you back to consciousness if you were knocked out by less than your
REC.

|speaking of x2 STUN shots, you are probably still stunned.  So you lose your
|action.  And if you were knocked out, then you are down (1/2 DCV) and are 

	Wonderful.  You should still be unconscious, though.

|left with very little END anyway.  No, logic and experience dictates that
|this isn't any real problem.

	The recovery rules are quite possibly the single most brain-damaged
section of the Hero system.  Even in the sourcebook section, Allston
recommends that the GM stop giving unconscious characters their recoveries
once one side or the other has attained the upper hand in the battle.

|Why not bring stun weapons? Maybe they aren't available, effective or relaible.
|Especially in GURPS, where an assualt rifle does 7d+1, making it usually pretty
|irrelevant to even roll damage against an unarmored for, you're going to do his
|HT in damage every time.

	Tear gas is pretty easy to come up with, and the percentage of supers
that still need to breathe is simply astounding.  Villains with access to
TL/8 stuff (gadgeteers, or anyone in my campaign) can whip out CHEM rounds,
shock rods and tanglers.

|
|Why not slit thier throats when unconcious?  Maybe the villians would like to 
|do a genre oriented thing, like torture their hated enemies in a deathtrap.  Or
|maybe the villians have some sense of honor about killing helpless opponents.
|Also very genre.

	Like I said in the first place, if you are going to crock it, who cares
what the rules say?  I don't observe "genre" conventions, period.  If I was
going to hit everyone with these bizarre pyschological restrictions, I'd run
TOON.

|The point is that it's pretty hard to work GURPS to match the genre in this
|example.  It's easy to make Hero vicious or not, GURPS has it's level of

	Use the Stun rules.  Use the Mixed Weapons rule from Martial Arts if
you want to keep it reasonable; blades and guns do killing damage,
everything else does Stun.  There you go.  That took seconds.

|viciousness built in more directly.  Thus, in the way of ambushes, I do
|think GURPS has a problem.

	Yeah, it's realistic.  But despite Champions' best efforts, the same
thing will happen if I have the villains act in an intelligent manner.

|
|I agree with previous posters that the damage ranges are just too high in
|GURPS.  I find it pretty pointless to have an assualt rifle doing 7d+1, even
|if most of that is supposed to be 'penetration power,' since the average
|individual only has 10 HT anyway.  I think the amount of penetration power
|these weapons have should be curtailed (note that even a 16 pt armor will
|make no difference for a 10 HT individual on an average roll, and that is
|some hefty armor!).  Also, I do think the base system should have been

	DR 16 isn't that "hefty", it's a medium or so kevlar vest, which in
reality won't even slow down a rifle slug.  The damage values for modern
weapons are pretty realistic.

|written with defenses cheaper.  The characters supplied in the book hardly
|came across like the super-heros they were written to be.  Rather, more
|like ordianary people still running from a guy with a rifle.  With thier
|higher DX/HT, I suppose they get to run quicker.  With cheaper defenses,
|I think the game would work a little better.
|
	I guess that's why they lowered the price, eh?


dfrancis@tronsbox.xei.com   ...uunet!tronsbox!dfrancis     GEnie: D.HEFFERNAN1
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