HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ashley@spectrum.cs.unsw.oz.au (Ashley Aitken)
Newsgroups: sci.nanotech
Subject: Re: Discussion group on Drexler's "Nanosystems"
Keywords: global discussion drexler nanosystems
Date: 22 Dec 92 20:39:06 GMT
Organization: University of New South Wales (EE & CSE)

G'day,

Robert L. Smith writes:
>Robert M. Solovay (solovay@math.berkeley.edu) wrote in part in
>    sci.nanotech on 16 Dec 92 05:04:30 GMT:
>
>> . . . two study groups that will be working through Drexler's new
>> book "Nanosystems" [are] a face-to-face meeting that meets every two
>> weeks, so far on the Stanford Campus [and] . . . a private
>> conference on the WELL. . .
>
>    There will likely be great interest in both these study groups.
>Is it possible for someone to produce from time to time a minutes or
>at least a summary of their results?  If so, I'd appreciate being put
>on the mailing list.
>

I realise that face-to-face discussion of the book is very useful but why 
couldn't we of had (or still have) a directed discussion over the net.

We could set dates whereby one should read particular chapters and then a
coversation can begin - perhaps restricted to the chapters by a moderator
or just by good old-fashioned constraint.

Unfortunately, I don't even have a copy of the book yet (or know if it is
available in Aus) so I have some work to do.

Generally though, I wish people would start thinking more globally (recall
the global village and all) when they organize things.  We have the tech-
nology and means to do it now, and it would sure help a lot of us folks 
who are over the hill and far away.

Cheers and all the best for the festive season,

Ashley Aitken.

--
E-MAIL  ashley@cs.unsw.oz.au			  	    (Inter/AAR)Net
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POSTAL	Academic Address:			Residential Address:
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	AUSTRALIA.				AUSTRALIA.
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   "That is all there is to the story of the brain; a homeostat that the 
   genes wired for survival. In man, hesitation and deliberation can be-
   come dysfunctional leading to philosophy and mathematics."  R.Scanlon

[Better yet, just start reading and commenting.
 --JoSH]
From: szabo@techbook.com (Nick Szabo)
Newsgroups: sci.nanotech
Subject: Critique of Nanosystems
Date: 22 Dec 92 20:29:16 GMT


Newsgroups: sci.nanotech
Subject: Re: Some questions re "Nanosystems".


>	What follows is a {somewhat edited] transcript of one of the
>topics in the WELL conference on Nanosystems...
>Topic   6:  Nanosystems - New Drexler Book - Critique
>By: Hudson Hayes Luce (hluce) on Sun, Nov 15, '92

>  For starters, let's look at p259, figs. 9.2a-e. Drexler terms these
> structures "diamondoid"... [but 9.2c unstable at room temp]
 
Looks like he was trying to find something with 3 bonds in
cross-section for a data point, and that's the best he could
come up with.  Is the modulus from MM2/CSC approximation in 
figure 9.4 correct?  Does Drexler use 9.2c as a part later on?

>  On p265 Drexler states "acquiring and processing molecules from solution.."
>  [but for part II high vacuum is assumed]

This statement points to section 13.2, where Drexler talks about
an "input port", which is presumably a sorting reservoir as
shown in figure 13.1, or the staged reservoirs in figure 13.4.   
On pg. 375, "a modulated receptor system can easily pump against 
pressures of several gigapascal".  Walls and seals are described 
in 11.4.2, pumps in 11.4.3.

I am left breathless by how often Drexler blithely goes between
solution and vacuum; for example where he asssumes vacuum while 
computing specificity in 13.2c (but says so explicitly).   

>"In mechanochemical systems, however,
>potential energy released by a reaction can often be stored elsewhere" 
                   		             ^^^^^^		
>  If this statement is true, perpetual motion is possible.

Only if it reads as "all of the potential energy ... always", which
it does not.
From: miron@extropia.wimsey.com (Miron Cuperman)
Newsgroups: sci.nanotech
Subject: MM3/MM2
Date: 22 Dec 92 20:42:00 GMT

Enclosed is a note sent by mkdowd@iastate.edu with information about the  
availability of MM2/3 molecular modelling software

--- Begin included message ---
Dear Miron:

I am responding to a News Network query that has forwarded
to me.  Apparently you are looking for information regarding
MM2/MM3.  The latest verion MM3(92) is available from
Technical Utilization Corp., Powell OH (614-885-0657).  The
cost is $400 US if you are an academic user, and VMS, DOS
and UNIX versions are available.  The program is not
graphical, although it shouldn't be to large of a project
to tie it to some chemistry graphics package. Earlier
versions of the program (MM2) have been incorporated into
commercial packages.  These packages usually cost big bucks.
Several versions of MM2 are also available from QCPE
(Quantum Chemistry Program Exchange), Bloomington ID.  This
number is (or was) 812-855-4784.  Unless things have changed
these programs cost $125 each.

For a graphical interface, you might want to check into
PC-Model, marketed by Serena Software, Bloomingtion ID
(812-333-0823).  The program costs $200 for the DOS version
and will let you build and display molecules on the screen.
The program also reads and writes MM2 formated files.

Best of luck,

Mike

--- End of included message ---
--
	Miron Cuperman <miron@extropia.wimsey.com>  | NeXTmail/mime ok
		       <miron@cs.sfu.ca>	    | Public key avail
	AMIX: MCuperman				    |
cybercomputingimmortallaissezfaire		    |
From: kbeal@amber.ssd.csd.harris.com (Ken Beal)
Newsgroups: sci.nanotech
Subject: Re: Controlled Release (was: To Spread The Meme)
Date: 22 Dec 92 20:24:45 GMT
Organization: Harris CSD, Ft. Lauderdale, FL

SunCat (kamchar@ibm.cl.msu.edu) wrote:
: An old thread I know.  I hope I have taken enough time to think it out:-) .
: Thus far no one has said that we should not Spread The Meme.  It's really a
: question of how and when.
: 
: At the end of a Tom McKendree post dated 1 Dec 92 JoSH says:
: [My own take on this subject is that nanotechnology is already quite
: a popular subject, comparatively.  It's more important at this point
: to increase the depth of interest, rather than the breadth.  And that
: requires substance, not PR.  The best thing we can do for nanotechnology
: right now is to do nanotechnology!
: --JoSH]

Well, I'm doing my part to increase the breadth (sorry, JoSH... ;-)  ) -- this
Christmas I've bought 30 copies of _Engines of Creation_ to give to friends
and relatives!  Hopefully this will spread the meme.

And I somewhat disagree with JoSH's depth vs. breadth argument: yes, we need
to work on depth, but can we not also work on breadth as well?  I am in the
computer industry (working on operating systems, basically entry-level) and
cannot contribute to depth.  Why should I forsake contributing to breadth?

(As a side note, anyone who has played Civilization should understand the
concept of enabling technologies *quite* well.  The game (even though it
*is* just a game) is an *excellent* teaching tool, and should be required
of politicians; the only thing I would change is the benefit for cooperating,
as the way it is written you are better off to destroy the other civilizations
as quick as possible.  End of plug.)

(I am in no way associated with Civilization or its creators, btw.)
--
Kenneth L. Beal, Jr.  kbeal@amber.ssd.csd.harris.com | Use OS/2 2.0! :-) often.
"I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous!" - MST3k  | Learn.  Keep moving.
"Street person my responsibility." - Indigo Girls    | Better yourself.
The opinions expressed above are shared.  The preceding sentence is false.
*** News at Harris expires daily.  If you want me to see it, please E-MAIL! ***

["A is more important than B" does *not* imply that B is unimportant.
 --JoSH]
From: rdna@matt.ksu.ksu.edu (Paul Paukstelis)
Newsgroups: sci.nanotech
Subject: Re: Controlled Release (was: To Spread The Meme)
Date: 22 Dec 92 20:40:43 GMT

This isn't all that important, but since there is the discussion of PR, I
thought i would share what i have done to boost the education of nanotech.
As a high school debater we ran an affirmative case which advoa
extensive R&D for nanotech so that it could be used to clean up pollution.
It was such a great case that nanotech turned into a culture on our squad.
We called ourselves "nanarchists" (not having read the jan. 89 Omni). We
later found the Omni article and decided to make t-shirts. We cut out the
picture of Drexler and put him on the front of the t-shirt. We also took
his "nanarchist" quotation and put it on the back. It has served some education
because people are always asking "who is that guy?" I explain nanotech and
tell them to read books. I know three people who are reading engines of creation
Nanotech has had a really profound influence on debate in both the high school
and college level. No one is caught dead with out nanotech files. I plan on
going into molecular biology, and after reading Nanosystems, i see the 
possibility of making that my future. My suggestion, get youth like myself
interested. That is where all the brain power of the future resides.

--rDNA
paul fnord paukstelis
manhattan, HS. manhattan, KS
From: tsf@CS.CMU.EDU (Timothy Freeman)
Newsgroups: sci.nanotech
Subject: Re: Some questions re "Nanosystems".
Date: 22 Dec 92 20:34:20 GMT

In article <Dec.17.20.24.12.1992.25394@planchet.rutgers.edu> merkle@parc.xerox.com (Ralph Merkle) writes:

   > Topic   6:  Nanosystems - New Drexler Book - Critique
   > By: Hudson Hayes Luce (hluce) on Sun, Nov 15, '92
   >   Describe a high-vacuum/solvent interface.

   This is illustrated on page 374, figure 13.1.  There is a diamondoid wall
   between the liquid external environment and the high-vacuum internal
   environment.  Figure 13.4 illustrates a multi-staged cascade which will
   produce an output with a contaminant fraction of less than 10^-15.

This looks like a near miss to me.  In fig 13.1 the output of sorted
molecules are pictured floating down a tube in a fairly random way.
This means that either the sorted molecules are dissolved in a solvent
or the sorted molecules themselves form either a liquid or a gas; in
either case, there is no vacuum on the rhs of the figure.

Fortunately, Figure 13.5 on page 384 shows a scheme that puts the
sorted molecules on a conveyor belt, which seems like a plausible way
to do it in a vacuum.  If there's a vacuum on the rhs of the figure,
then one of the following must be true:

   1. There is no solvent in the stream entering the lhs of the
      figure.  This means that the molecule we're interested in must form a
      liquid or gas at whatever temperature we're working at.
   2. We can design the rotating parts to fit closely enough to ensure
      that essentially none of the solvent leaks from the lhs of the
      figure to the rhs. 

Both of these seem plausible to me.  Given that Drexler referred to
hydrostatic pressure page 384, it seems doubtful that I'm giving his
diagram the meaning he intended.

--
Tim Freeman <tsf@cs.cmu.edu>    CompuServe ID 71045,2267 checked occasionally.
When they took the fourth amendment, I was silent because I don't deal drugs.
When they took the sixth amendment, I kept quiet because I know I'm innocent.
When they took the second amendment, I said nothing because I don't own a gun.
Now they've come for the first amendment, and I can't say anything at all.

[It would seem silly to build the concentrator as shown and throw
 away the negentropy it gains by allowing the sorted molecules to float
 ramdomly off to the right--taking them off on a conveyor belt seems a
 much better way to do it.
 --JoSH]
From: tinker@soliton.physics.arizona.edu (Frank Tinker)
Newsgroups: sci.nanotech
Subject: Buckminsterfullerene Bibliography
Date: 23 Dec 92 23:44:09 GMT

For those of you interested in the fullerenes, I've just finished with
the latest edition of the Buckminsterfullerene Bibliography. It is
available via anonymous ftp from physics.arizona.edu in the afc
directory (afc = Arizona Fullerene Consortium). The ASCII version is
in the afc directory. There is also a LaTeX version in afc/tex. You
might also find a use for the PC-specific files in afc/ibmpc.

Frank Tinker
From: dkrieger@netcom.com (David Krieger)
Newsgroups: sci.nanotech
Subject: Re: Controlled Release (was: To Spread The Meme)
Date: 22 Dec 92 20:26:41 GMT

> Meme theory may be subject to something like the "Gresham's Law" of
> economics--Bad money drives out good.  Possibly, Virtual Reality has
> received such a bad rap by having one Timothy Leary as a self-appointed
> spokesman.  IMHO Dr. Leary is basicly a nice guy but a pretty poor
> spokesman. 

I'd have to guess that Jaron Lanier had a vastly greater negative
impact on the image of VR than Tim Leary.  The current status of VPL
research could be considered to be a direct result of statements
Jaron made, implying that the state of the art in VR was vastly more
advanced than it, in fact, was.  I spoke with Tim Leary in Los Angeles
on December 6th, and he has now in fact distanced himself from some of
the more extravagant claims made by members of the VR community of
applications in fields like psychotherapy.  I'd say Dr. Tim is guilty
of nothing more than occasionally repeating claims made by others who
should have known better.  Overall, I'd call his bogometer surprisingly
sound.

> The fuse here is short.  Terrence McKenna (a so-called "Leary
> of the 90's) is quoted in _Unbounding the Future_ and nanotechnology
> receives a mention in McKenna's latest _Archaic Revival_.  Eventually Leary
> will hear of nanotech, and then we must be prepared to seize the memetic
> high ground.  

I'm sure Tim Leary probably heard of nanotech before most of the readers
of this mailing list -- he was writing about it as early as 1987.  There
are plenty of people who could do a lot more harm than Leary by embracing
what Thomas Donaldson calls "capital-N Nanotechnology".  For example, Pat
Robertson (televangelist) has mentioned "Engines" on his "700 Club" 
television program.

> Just for the record I did not suggest that nanotechnology be part of the
> plot or text of a rock video--just another background image amidst a welter
> of others.  Possibly response:  "What are those weird looking things back
> there?"  Of course Peter Gabriel is a part of Global Business Network....

Of course, one runs the risk of such imagery being misinterpreted -- one
recent commenter on sci.nanotech recently mistook for nano-bearings some
renderings of the molecular structure of various psychoactive drugs!

> Happy Holidays
> SunCat    kamchar@ibm.cl.msu.edu

					dk
From: phoenix@eskimo.com (Burt Webb)
Newsgroups: sci.nanotech
Subject: Nano-Event in Seattle Washington
Date: 22 Dec 92 20:27:36 GMT
Organization: -> ESKIMO NORTH (206) For-Ever <-

There will be a presentation by Dr. James Lewis on nanotechnology in
general and the first Foresight Institute Open Conference held in
November 1992. It will take place on Wednesday, February 17, 1993 from
7 PM to 9 PM at the Italian Spaghetti House, 9824 Lake City Way NE,
Seattle, Washington... 523-2667.
The mailing address for NTG is  
P.O. Box 40176
Bellevue, WA 98105
From: josh@cs.rutgers.edu (J Storrs Hall)
Newsgroups: sci.nanotech
Subject: Perrenial Christmas Poem
Date: 23 Dec 92 23:49:59 GMT


		A Visit from Saint Assembler
		(With Apologies to Clement Moore)
		by J. Storrs Hall

'Twas the night before Breakthrough; when all through the house,
Not a creature was stirring, not even a mouse.
The smocks were hung up in the lab for the night,
In hopes that a rest would bring some new insight.
The children were nestled all snug in their beds, 
While visions of molecules danced through their heads.
Ma in her kerchief, and I in my cap,
Had just settled our brains for a long winter's nap--
When logical inference struck me so hard
I let down my everyday common-sense guard.
The mind, on the crest of this new point of view
Took wild flights of fancy and made them seem true.
My wondering eyes, as I stood there agape,
Saw a miniature robot complete with a tape;
Of such a micronic molecular mass,
I knew in a moment it must be Saint ... well, it must be a molecular assembler.
More rapidly than I could figure it out,
He built more of himself from stuff lying about.
He built Dasher and Dancer; they, Prancer and Vixen;
And then Comet and Cupid and Donder and Blitzen.
Now faster than I could match each with his name,
they doubled and doubled--and they all were the same.
As dry leaves that before the wild hurricane fly,
(or more, rather, like smoke) they took off to the sky.
And I could imagine I heard on the roof
the prancing and pawing of each tiny hoof.
Down the chimney they came, eating all of the soot,
As carelessly diamonds were dropped on my foot.
Another small cloud of atomic erectors
Were turning the roof into solar collectors.
I looked at one closely: a jolly old speck,
He had plenty of arms, and a bivalent neck.
His tape told him what he was programmed to do;
He was fast and efficient--self-referent too.
He looked like a gang of maniacal boys
Had been put in a room full of wee tinkertoys,
And making a mechanical jest of their teacher,
Allowed it to mutate into an odd creature.
Benzene rings on his fingers, propellors for toes,
Bucky ball for a belly, and lithium nose.
His arms moved like twinkling magical wands,
and his ears were connected by hydrogen bonds.
A wink of his eye, and a twist of his head, 
Soon gave me to know I had nothing to dread;
Though New Jersey, the previous hour or two,
Had melted to form a sweet, sticky, gray goo.
He said not a word, but went straight to his work,
Built three more just like him, and turned with a jerk.
It was hard to see whether he gestured or beckoned,
For he did it a million or more times a second.
Not a bit of the household escaped from his hustle,
Even the doors received eyes, ears, and muscle.
I'd just gotten used to a toaster with brains;
I now must contend with intelligent drains.
Then most of them left through the skin of my hands,
to do a refurbishing job on my glands--
But I heard them exclaim, ere they dove out of sight,
"Happy Future to all, and to all a good night!"
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
From: tad@ssc.com (Tad Cook)
Subject: Re: Uri's Magic
Organization: very little
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 18:58:56 GMT

In article <3082@israel.nysernet.org> warren@nysernet.org writes:
>In <bgm21+r@rpi.edu> gallas2@bray1a.its.rpi.edu (Sean Michael Gallagher) writes:
>
>>I really hope this isn't true.  I have never been one to underestimate the
>>stupidity of a Congresscritter, but this is too much.
>
>I doubt it myself.  It doesn't seem impossible to me that someone in
>the government would call up Geller, but I can't see NASA cooperating.
>-- 


I joined this thread late.  But it sounds to me like another wacky stunt
by Senator Claiborne Pell, who I believe had a staff member at one time
who was in charge of metaphysics, or some such nonsense.  There was an
article about him sometime back in the Wall St Journal.  I wish I had
saved it....or I wish I could afford Dow Jones News Retrevel so I could
search for it.



-- 
 Tad Cook     |  Phone:  206-527-4089  (home)     |   MCI Mail: 3288544   
 Seattle, WA  |  Packet: KT7H @ N7DUO.WA.USA.NA   |   3288544@mcimail.com 
              |  Internet: tad@ssc.com           or...sumax!ole!ssc!tad   
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
From: corey@sdf.lonestar.org (Corey Carroll)
Subject: Ouiji (sp?) boards?
Organization: Best lil' ol' Pubnix in Texas
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 07:18:50 GMT

After having been freed from most superstitions, I find myself
still worrying about some, namely those that my parents have
instilled in me.  My mother, in her fervor to make me religious,
used to talk about experiences she had with "demons".  She said
that she and some friends were playing with an Oijua Board, and
the pointer moved, without the effort of anyone else.  Everyone
claimed not to be moving it, and yet it would spell out
sentences, etc.  I find this hard to believe.  Are there any more
rational explanations for the apparent "demonic" action of an
Oijua board?

Uh, email replies unless you think it's important to post here.

-- 
corey@sdf.lonestar.org  214-296-0458   Corey Carroll
Xref: sparky sci.skeptic:21571 sci.med:22906
From: carl@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU (Carl J Lydick)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
Subject: Re:  Galileo's stuck antenna"
Date: 28 Dec 1992 23:35:51 GMT
Organization: HST Wide Field/Planetary Camera
Reply-To: carl@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol1.gps.caltech.edu

A few days ago, I mentioned the plans had for trying to unstick the high gain
antenna on Galileo (this in the context of a discussion of Uri Geller). 
Someone was skeptical of my description, and was under the impression that what
I was describing had been cancelled, replaced by something else. 
Unfortunately, I don't remember who that person was.  So I post to the group
an excerpt from a bulletin issued by the Galileo Project manager today:

=Forwarded from Bill O'Neil, Galileo Project Manager

=                            GALILEO STATUS REPORT
=                              December 28, 1992

=     Today, December 28, 1992, the HGA (High Gain Antenna) warming to a 45
=degree off Sun angle is scheduled in preparation for the DDA-5 (Dual Drive
=Actuator #5) windup hammering activities.  Real-time commands are scheduled
=to update the system fault protection response and to modify attitude control
=fault protection precision level in support of the motor acuation activity.
=Tracking is scheduled over DSS-43 and DSS-63.

=     Tomorrow, after approxiamately 28 hours at warming attitude, real-time
=motor windup hammering commands are scheduled to be sent beginning at approx
=6:56 AM PST for a period of up to 20 hours.  Tracking is scheduled over DSS-14,
=DSS-43 and DSS-63.

Translating that from NASA-speak, they're planing to turn the motor that's
supposed to deploy the antenna on and off repeatedly, hoping that it will
eventually manage to free the stuck pins.

I wonder whether Uri will actually claim credit if this succeeds?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carl J Lydick | INTERnet: CARL@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU | NSI/HEPnet: SOL1::CARL

Disclaimer:  Hey, I understand VAXen and VMS.  That's what I get paid for.  My
understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level (or below).  So
unless what I'm saying is directly related to VAX/VMS, don't hold me or my
organization responsible for it.  If it IS related to VAX/VMS, you can try to
hold me responsible for it, but my organization had nothing to do with it.
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.messianic