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Date:         Fri, 8 Jan 1993 21:26:04 EST
From:         Dan Harling <harling@ROADRUNNER.PICTEL.COM>
Subject:      Re: IT WORKS LIKE IT SAYS IT WORKS.

> Date: 07 Jan 1993 15:24:00 -0500 (EST)
> From: "DRCV06::GRAHAM" <GRAHAM%DRCV06.decnet@DRCVAX.AF.MIL>
> Subject: IT WORKS LIKE IT SAYS IT WORKS.
> To: Multiple recipients of list CHRISTIA <CHRISTIA@asuvm.inre.asu.edu>
>
> ...  GOD IS INFINITE AND FAR BEYOND
> OUR ABILITY TO UNDERSTAND.  TWO THINGS THAT SEEM TO CONTRADICT EACH OTHER
> IN OUR LOGIC SYSTEM MAY NOT AT ALL DO SO IN GOD'S.

You are right that it is a matter of knowledge and understanding, but
it is wrong to suggest that in addition to greater knowledge and
understanding, God also has a different system of logic.

Some "contradictions" are a result of incomplete knowledge (e.g., God's
reason for allowing evil to remain in the world--it is all toward the
glory of God, but we can't truly say we know how God will *use* it to
accomplish His purposes), some are a result of the limits of our
understanding (e.g., the intimate relationship between Father, Son, and
Holy Spirit), and some are true logical contradictions.

I would contend that most things that are proclaimed to be logical
contradictions are really one of the former two.  Therefore, it is
unnecessary (and unwise) to simply state that "God has a different
logic system".  If that were the case, we would be utterly unable to
understand Him, and anything that can be said about God would be
irrational (and Bertrand Russell would posthumously smile for finally
getting Christians to admit that very point).
____________________________________________________________________________
Daniel A. Harling                        (harling@pictel.com)
PictureTel Corp.             Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of
Peabody, MA  01960                   PictureTel Corp. (so there!)
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Date:         Tue, 5 Jan 1993 11:28:45 EST
From:         "SHELBY A. CROSS" <LIBSAC@EMUVM1.BITNET>
Subject:      RE:PRAYER REQUEST-MELANIE

Dear Melanie,

We will be holding up your Aunt Doris up in prayer and believing for her
healing.  We also will be praying for her daughters that they will be
a comfort and help to your Aunt.

Dear Heavenly Father,

We give You all the glory, honor, and praise for all Your many blessings
and for Your love.  We ask You Father to heal Aunt Doris' eyes and for a
complete healing from this heart attack she had.  We ask You Father to give her
daughters Your strength, wisdom, and understanding to be a comfort and help to
their mother at this time.  Let their relationship become closer and Lord we
will be so ever faithful to give You all the glory and praise for what You
are doing in their lives.  Father give her daughter a boost in her walk with
You Lord, and let her know that we all have to go through trials and tribula-
tions, but You will deliver us out of them all - Praise the Lord!!  We also
ask You Father in Jesus Name to help Melanie be a strength to her Aunt, and
that she be able to minister to Aunt Doris and her cousins.  In Jesus Mighty
Name we pray.  Amen and Amen.

Your sister in Christ,
Shelby--
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Date:         Fri, 8 Jan 1993 00:55:29 -0600
From:         Tom Shelton 314 694-3831 <tjshel@MAPLE.MONSANTO.COM>
Subject:      RE: prayer request

I will be praying for your father's complete healing.

Tom Shelton

TJSHEL@MAPLE.MONSANTO.COM
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Date:         Fri, 8 Jan 1993 17:08:41 EST
From:         carol nemec <YA67@FERRIS.BITNET>
Subject:      Being a faithful witness

Well, I'm not too bold in anything I do.  But hopefully I've
witnessed to my co-workers in some way.  Well, we are all
witnesses, it's just what others perceive that determines
how we are witnessing.

I guess the posters, the things I have around my office, all
indicate that I'm a Christian.  Now, my problem is, because I
have all these things around, then I have to be sure to act
in the manner that Christ would have me to act because others
are going to be watching me.  Well, I sin, so that's not a
100% guarantee I'm gonna act/react as Christ would.  So then
I'm gonna be watched on how I handle those many times I sin.

I guess I'm saying, it's 'bold' to put up the posters, etc.
because then I gotta watch myself.  Otherwise, I could let
my sinful, selfish person easily take control.

My experiences as a result?  Well, people come to me with
their Biblical questions, they watch how they talk around me,
and I've had some opportunities to tell what Jesus means to
me and how he works in my life.  I was quite bold at one point,
and some were put off by my self-righteousness.  That does the
Lord's work no good.  The Lord has to work, and guide me as
to where he needs me.  I pray for my co-workers, saved and
unsaved, but I cannot pass judgement. Only the Lord can convict
and He has his time, I'm only an instrument.

Carol Nemec
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Date:         Thu, 7 Jan 1993 15:35:25 EST
From:         "jones, mark" <JMJONES@UGA.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Venturing into full-time motherhood

Julie,
The job which you have chosen to pursue on a full-time basis is one of the
most important and most difficult jobs in the world. Motherhood is, I believe
one of the dearest and highest callings a lady can aspire to. I have so much
respect for ladies who devote full-time to their children. Not to say that
I dont respect the super-mom who can juggle job, kids and all; I know many
ladies who do a superb job of this. But for a woman who *wants* to and feels
*called* of God to stay home, there is just no higher calling! I praise God
for my beautiful wife who told me after she got pregnant that her highest goal
in life was to make a home for me and our children. She is a priceless jewel,
and no less a professional than when she was in the working world. The world
system and the liberal media tend to thumb their noses at the full time
homemaker, but don't be fooled. This investment will pay dividends. God
Bless you in your new *career* Julie!..........Mark
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Date:         Wed, 6 Jan 1993 09:05:37 EST
From:         "jones, mark" <JMJONES@UGA.BITNET>
Subject:      prayer request

Dear Christian Friends,

I would like to request that you lift up my father in prayer. He has
been battling lung and mouth cancer since June. He has completed facial surgery
and two rounds of chemotherapy, and will go soon for the CT scans, et.al. to
determine whether lung surgery will be necessary. He feels good, and the Lord
has blessed him so already. He has gained some weight and did not get
sick from the chemotherapy. The doctor (a fine Christian M.D.) has given
him a good prognosis. The cancer was detected early, and this too was a
blessing. Please pray for his continued well being and comlete healing.
He is a wonderful Christian man, and my best friend; he is Robert Jones age 67.
Thank you so much my brothers and sisters...God Bless you all....Mark
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Organization: Virginia Department of Health
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Sat, 9 Jan 1993 18:37:20 EST
From:         "Michael A. Kline" <MKLINE@VDH.BITNET>
Subject:      White House Staff Cut?

    Clinton to cut White House Staff by 25%. Oh really? ---------------->

    MAKS> Some time ago Clinton made a campaign promise to cut the
Congress staff and the White House staff by 25%. Shortly afterwards, that
was changed to only cut the White House staff by 25%. Now? Rush had an
update on the matter.

    Rush: I know a number of you station managers along the line think
that we speak too much about Clinton. He's the President-Elect. He's in
the news.  And he has committed a huge flip-flop and nobody else is going
to tell you, somebody has to.

    Here is the President-Elect Clinton press conference in Little Rock,
back in October. Take a look.

    Clinton: So I'm going to get out there and set an example. I'm going
to cut 25% from the White House staff, and continue to work with
Congress, hope we can keep on the downward trend there so that in the end
we'll wind up with more or less the same pace. But they did take a cut
last year, while the White House continued to expand the White House
staff.

    Rush: Alright, that press conference we didn't show you where he
first said, during the campaign, "Congress 25% staff cut, White House 25%
staff cut." The Congress told him in a private meeting, "Not us pal, you
can do with the White House what you want, you're leaving us alone." And
that's why he said there, "They already took some hits last year."

    MAKS> I remember when he did this. Rush showed Clinton making the
"Congress 25%, White House 25%" speech. Then he showed the one above. He
was surrounded by several of the Democrats and "if looks could kill"...
They were looking at him like "one mention of 25% in Congress and you'll
never leave here alive."

    Rush: Now let's show you the New York Times from today....

                           The New York Times
                            (probably 1/7/93)
         "Advisers Looking Askance At Pledge for 25% Staff Cut"
                           by Richard L. Berke
                      Special in The New York Times

    It says: "As President-Elect Bill Clinton's advisors get closer to
becoming White House staff members, they ARE GROWING DUBIOUS, about his
campaign promise to cut that staff by 25%. Transition officials now say
IT COULD TAKE MONTHS TO MEET THAT GOAL, IF IT CAN BE DONE AT ALL!!!!"

    Rush: Ah ha!!!!! It won't happen. It's a harbinger, folks. It's a
harbinger. This daff-uh-zit stuff, and this. It's a harbinger.

    MAKS> Yes, I know. We still owe him our support. We owe him the
prayers that he WILL find a way to cut his staff. That he WILL find a way
cut the daff-uh-zit. We don't need to ask the Lord to put the US further
into debt. That also goes for the Senate and the Congress.

Maks.
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Date:         Mon, 11 Jan 1993 09:39:40 EST
Comments:     Converted from PROFS to RFC822 format by PUMP V2.2X
From:         Brenda Curry-White <BSCURR01@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU>
Subject:      What to pray for (was RE: Prayer Request Follow-up)

Michael Kline offers me this encouragement (which I thank him for):
"According to the doctors they <Sarah's cataracts> may never go away, but
all things are possible with God. Maybe God won't take them away, but don't
agree with the doctors. :-)" ...more deleted about friends miraculously
cured of cancer

Michael, thank you for the encouragement.  I do not take offense by it, but
receive it as the loving suggestion that I am sure you intended it to be.

But I am not praying for Sarah's cataracts to go away.  They in no way bother
her vision.  She will grow up and not even know she has them.  She will be
able to do anything she wants to, including driving a car (and I'm not looking
forward as a parent to that!).  They do not disfigure her face, nor does she
have to wear glasses (she may later become nearsighted, but not because she
has cataracts; simply because she has a double wammy in her genes from both
her mom * and * dad).  Her cataracts are called anterior polar cataracts.  They
are genetic (although we do not know anyone in either family who had them),
but they do not grow or interfere with vision because they are tiny, and on
front of the lens. So I am not praying that they will go away, because deep in
my heart I feel that such a prayer would be selfish.  I would much rather
see God perform more meaningful miracles, like curing my sister of the
hepatitis that is killing her, or curing my brother of alcoholism.  I'm
willing to live with seeing those little white specks in my daughter's eyes,
in order for God to work true miracles.

Brenda
From: harling@ROADRUNNER.PICTEL.COM (Dan Harling)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: Albany, NY Youth Groups?
Date: 5 Jan 93 16:32:41 GMT
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> Date: 05 Jan 1993 10:20:35 -0500 (EST)
> From: TQX%CORNELLC.BITNET@asu.edu
> Subject: Albany, NY Youth Groups?
> To: Multiple recipients of list CHRISTIA <CHRISTIA@asuvm.inre.asu.edu>
>
>     Does anyone on the list from Albany, New York know of any active
> youth groups in the area that include college-age young people? My
> son, who is a student at Albany College of Pharmacy, would like to
> meet other Christian young people but does not know of any active
> groups in the area. He is Baptist but would feel comfortable in an
> evangelical church of another denomination.

Claude,

My friend Jeff Donnelly, who graduated from college a couple of years
ago, lives in and attends church in Albany.  I don't know what his
church has for youth-oriented programs, but the band I am in ("Carmen
Christi") will be playing there on the 20th of March.  If they have any
kind of youth program in the church, it will be there.

I'll try to get further info. about the church and get back to you.

                                                -->Dan Harling
                                                   harling@pictel.com
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Date:         Wed, 6 Jan 1993 01:53:31 MST
From:         Madge McBurney <FOCMCB@ASUACAD.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: CS LEWIS - UNAUTHORDOX?

----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
>From: creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Steve Creps)
>Subject: Re:      CS LEWIS - UNAUTHORDOX?
>Organization: Indiana University
>Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 16:54:07 GMT


   Ian, the text you quoted by C.S. Lewis sounds OK to me.  The way I
understand the Holy Spirit is this: the Holy Spirit is the Third
Person of the Holy Trinity.  He is said to proceed from the Father and
the Son, through a process for which the technical term is spiration
(related to breathing).  This "breathing," however, is not air, but
rather love.  In other words, the love between the Father and the Son
is so complete, that it is another Person, Who is Himself God.

   This is not to be taken to mean, however, that the Holy Spirit is
any less than the Father or the Son, or that He is a result of (not
coeternal with) the Father and the Son.  This would be the same
mistake as saying that since Christ is the Son of the Father, then the
Father was before the Son.  We cannot apply the concept of time to
God.

   Brad Kaiser posted some quotes from the early Church giving some of
the definitions of the Holy Spirit.  As the Trinity is a mystery, no
human words can be adequate to explain it; we can only approximate it.
I don't pretend to come close to fully understanding it.

   If I am not mistaken C.S. Lewis was an Anglican.

   At our church (Catholic) the section of the Creed which tells of
the Holy Spirit is this:

        We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Giver of life,
        Who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
        With the Father and the Son He is worshipped and glorified.
        He has spoken through the prophets.

   This creed is pretty much the same for several other churches
(including Anglican).

-       -       -       -       -       -       -       -       -       -
Steve Creps, Indiana University
creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu
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Date:         Thu, 7 Jan 1993 14:38:00 N
From:         Wolfgang Hutter <HUTTER@DULRUU51.BITNET>
Subject:      RE: Babies & stuff (was: Re: Operation Pest)

In a message of Tue, 22 Dec 1992 14:57:00 CST
Received on Tue, 22 Dec 1992 22:03 N
RussN@SSECMAIL.SSEC.WISC.EDU wrote:

> Thanks everyone for your encouragement -- I'm looking forward to March (when
> the baby is due) more and more! (I thought a subject title change might be
> good since there seems to be two threads under the same heading...)

Yeah! I missed this thread completely until shortly before my Christmas
break - when it was too late to jump in. So, Russ, lets see who'll win
the race in March... :-)

> As for finding out the sex of the baby, we want to be surprised, but it's
> gonna be tough to watch the sonogram and not want to find out...

Well, we didn't try to keep innocent and now we are fairly sure about
our little one. This was really helpful for my wife, Ute. But we would
also have no difficulties if the prediction would prove wrong - except
for the name... we are having big troubles on finding even one! :-)

Wolfgang <><
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Via:        UK.AC.DUND.MCS;  7 JAN 93 20:58:10 GMT
Via:        tay.mcs.dund.ac.uk (tay-2); Thu, 7 Jan 93 20:59:27 GMT
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Thu, 7 Jan 1993 20:59:27 GMT
From:         "Ian (Travolta) Wylie C2/Q2" <iwylie@MCS.DUNDEE.AC.UK>
Subject:      Re: Venturing into full-time motherhood

Dear Julie,

Will keep you in prayer.

The best things in life are worth fighting for.

Love in Christ,

Ian Wylie
University of Dundee
Scotland
E-mail iwylie@uk.ac.dund.mcs
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Date:         Tue, 12 Jan 1993 10:04:25 CST
Comments:     Answering received message
From:         THERESA BLACKWELL <TBLACKWL@USMCP6.BITNET>
Subject:      'Baby Baby'

Ok, Ann.... you're getting this explaination from a future music industry
producer.  THE MAN IN THE VIDEO ISN'T AMY'S HUSBAND, GARY.  HERE'S WHY.
              IN THE MUSIC INDUSTRY, IF YOU'RE MARRIED, AND DO A
              VIDEO, AND YOUR HUSBAND WORKS FOR A DIFFERENT RECORD
              LABEL THAN YOU DO, THEN YOU AND HE *CAN'T* RECORD
              TOGETHER.
It's standard proceedure.
I wish it could be changed, because - like you, I would LOVE to see Amy and
Gary in a video together.  Unfortunately, the music industry giants
see things differently.
IF Amy recorded with Gary - there would be conflict of interest between
the two record labels.  Amy's tunes would not get the airplay, neither
would Gary's.  He is also in C&W music, not CCM (Contemporary Christian).
IT is RARE in the industry for Secular and Christian artists to do a video
together.  In fact??? To my knowledge, Peter Cetera and Amy Grant are the
first two I've seen with a video of that nature.
Like I said, it's rare.
Amy is on Myrrh-A%M, and I'm not sure what label Gary records with,
but it's NOT Myrrh.
Wonder what the industry can do to change it???
Sometimes the industry does change fast, but for the most part Rules
is rules.

 * <TBLACKWL@USMCP6.BITNET>
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Date:         Sat, 9 Jan 1993 09:42:39 CDT
From:         Ian Williams <iwilliam@AU.ORACLE.COM>
Subject:      Re: ROMANS 8:26 AND PRAYING IN THE SPIRIT.
              93 7:32 am

>
>My use of Romans 8:26 in reference to the Holy Spirit interceding for us in
>our prayers because we do not know how to pray nor what to pray for was not
>at all a misinterpretation.  The issue of speaking in tongues is completely
>different.
>

Not at all..... 'Groans that words cannot express'... Praying in the Spirit
is not a silent thing.. The Holy Spirit interceeding for us in prayer not
of our understanding is certainly biblically based. If you want to get tied
down in technicalities by calling it tounges, then fine, but you confuse the
issue with the GIFT of tounges (1 Cor 12)..

Person prayer language given by the Holy Spirit is not the gift of toungues,
I agree.. It is however speaking in other languages, or tounges.. It is not
a gift because the tounges remain with us, where as the Corinthian gifts
of the spirit are manifested for a certain time place..

>Praying or speaking in tongues is, specifically, a gift of the Spirit,
>given and used for special purposes, not for general, personal praying.
The GIFT of tounges is used for special purposes when combined with
the GIFT of interpretation for the edification of the body..


>You cannot find in Paul's writings that private prayer should be in a
>tongue, in fact, his advice on there always being an interpreter of a
>tongue would preclude personal prayer in tongues.
>
In the words of Sherman Potter - HORSE HOCKEY!

Paul doesnt tell us how private prayer should be done at all, however you
opened your post here with the very scripture that supports the use of
a private holy spirit inspired prayer languaged! (not the gift of tounges, but
a personal tounge)

The need for an interpretation of a publically given tounge is obvious, to
edify the church. A manifestation of the GIFT of tounges without
interpretation is useless to all!

>About the Koreans, these are the same folks who were telling us the end of
>the world was going to come on October 28th of last year, we're still here
>so I wouldn't hold all Korean Christians up as paragons.
>
I wouldnt be so quick to knock the Korean church. The splinter cults
that did that October thingy had nothing to do with the mainstream church
in Korea, which in fact holds the largest single church in the world under
the minstry of Dr Yongi Cho.

>Dan Graham




---------------------+-------------+-----------------------------------------
Ian Williams         |    _--_|\   |      Internet: iwilliam@au.oracle.com
Oracle Systems       |   /      \  |      Phone   : +61 8 239 3900
Adelaide, Australia  |   \_.--*_/  |
                     |         v   |
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Date:         Mon, 11 Jan 1993 17:10:00 N
From:         Wolfgang Hutter <HUTTER@DULRUU51.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: contraception - a crosspost

In a message of Mon, 11 Jan 1993 10:03:24 -0500
Received on Mon, 11 Jan 1993 16:06 N
Eric James Ewanco <ewanco@MLO.DEC.COM> wrote:

> Scripture
> strangely enough does not directly condemn pre-marital sex, just
> "fornication."

What about Deut.22:21?

> Finally, the Christian Church has always forbidden contraception (until
> 1930, when Protestant denominations started to change their previous
> opposition to contraception).

I think you ought to be more precise here. Is it indeed sinful according
to the RCC to use the method of Knaus-Ogino ("counting days") or in
other words abstinence on certain days? If not you should specify which
kinds of contraception would be forbidden. And which kinds of
contraception were indeed known (and forbidden by the Christian Church)
until this century?

> There are good reasons why Catholics believe that contraception is sinful.

I hope you don't allude to the same reasons that lead to the conclusion
that sexual intercourse without the intention of procreation is sinful.

Wolfgang <><
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