HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mmdh@cbfsb.att.com
Newsgroups: soc.religion.islam
Subject: Inaccurate translation of the Qur'an
Date: 11 Sep 92 11:45:07 GMT
Reply-To: mmdh@cbfsb.att.com
Original-From: mmokhtar@attmail.com (Mazen Mokhtar)
Originator: mmdh@cbnewsf.cb.att.com
Originator: gwydion@wookumz.gnu.ai.mit.edu


Assalamu `alaykum,

  A friend is taking a class about Islam, but that class unfortunately uses
N. J. Dawoud's translation of the Qur'an. The friend wants to petition the
professor and the university bookstore to change it in favor of a more
accurate translation such as Y. Ali's or M. Pickthall's. In order to do that,
we need to document the inaccuracies in it. I know that information regarding
inacurracies in this translation is available, but I have a hard time
locating it. I would appreciate any help in this regard.

  I speak Arabic and I have access to other translations, so feel free to
send me undocumented references to inaccuracies if that is all you have, I
can check them myself.

  What I know about this translation is that:

    - The translation is widely discredited by Muslims because it has many
      inaccuracies; so many that it is clear that they are not unintentional.

    - N. J. Dawoud reordered the suras (I think that he intended to put them
      in chronological order.)

    - This translation is the most widely used in universities.

  Despite the Muslim sounding name, N. J. Dawoud is an Iraqi Jew, so many
Muslims are misled into thinking that it is a translation by a Muslim.

  Any information about N. J. Dawoud or the translation would be greatly
appreciated.

  Please post replies or send them to mmokhtar@attmail.com.


Assalamu `alaykum,

Mazen Mokhtar
From: ahmed@ecs.umass.edu
Newsgroups: soc.religion.islam
Subject: Re: Words Feminists find Demeaning!
Date: 13 Sep 92 17:18:49 GMT

In article <26773@life.ai.mit.edu>, ekrem@vlsivie.tuwien.ac.at (Ekrem Saban) writes:
> In article <26575@life.ai.mit.edu> exuasqa@exu.ericsson.se (Asem Qaddoura,xt-dk,1209) writes:
> 
> Perhaps, I understood the question wrongly, but if not, the answer is
> that the husband is a good Muslim if he acts good against his
> women/children. If not, he will not be punished: therefore, being good
> is not a law of Sharia (like praying five times a day: if not, you
> will be forced in an Islamic state). 
> 	  ^^^^^^

Assalamualaikum,
	Excuse me!! Nobody can force one to pray. Salaat is obligatory.
It is one of the duties of a muslim to ALLAH(swt). Such obligations are
between the person and Allah. Others may advice. It is only the social
duties that the state can regulate.

Jazakallah ... khaleel.
From: umbehrou@ccu.umanitoba.ca (Mehrab Behrouzian)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.islam
Subject: A brief satistic on Muslim in Bosnia and Hercegovina
Date: 11 Sep 92 11:03:57 GMT
Reply-To: umbehrou@ccu.umanitoba.ca (Mehrab Behrouzian)
Organization: University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Canada
Originator: gwydion@wookumz.gnu.ai.mit.edu

Bosnia Hercegovina
Capital: Sarajevo
Religious Make-up: Muslim=54%, Cathoolic=18%,  Eastern Orthodox=28%
Population: 4 million

Brief report:
 3 Million homeless
 More than a 100000 dead
 tens of thousands Missing and wounded
 $150 billion in property damage
From: angelboy@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (No One At The Bridge)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.islam
Subject: Marriage in Islam
Date: 16 Sep 92 00:57:46 GMT
Organization: Purdue University Computing Center
Originator: gwydion@wookumz.gnu.ai.mit.edu

This is in answer to a letter about marriage in Islam.
In answer to the question:
	A non-muslim girl can marry a muslim man provided that she is of
a monotheistic religion.  If she is not, then the male risks eternal
damnation as a result of his sins.  However, if she becomes monotheistic,
then the marriage is right in the eyes of Allah. 
	A non-muslim male must not marry a muslim girl.  It is forbidden by
Allah's will.  If he becomes Muslim, then it is valid.
	Note: These rules only aplly to the religios aspect of marriage.
Legally, a non-muslim can marry a muslim regardless of sex.

	Angelboy@mentor.cc.purdue.edu
From: rached@blanc.eng.ohio-state.edu (rached)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.islam
Subject: MONITOR:soc.culture.arabic
Date: 11 Sep 92 11:55:10 GMT
Reply-To: rached@blanc.eng.ohio-state.edu (rached)
Organization: The Ohio State University Dept of Electrical Engineering
Originator: gwydion@wookumz.gnu.ai.mit.edu

Assalamu Alaykum
Another monitored article from soc.culture.arabic, this time asking for
information. Please post your replies to BOTH soc.religion.islam and
soc.culture.arabic.

rached
------------------------------------------------------------------------




Article: 6577 of soc.culture.arabic
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 15:40:35 EDT
From: <RDT111@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic
Subject:    request for info on arabic language and religious writings




     I'm looking for any information on Arabic language programs (computer
programs that teach the arabic language), and information on sources
of islamic religious writings (including the Qur'an) in english or
arabic.  I'm mostly looking for information stored on computers that
I could access. Also any BBS's that may contain information would be
usefull.  if this seems a little vague its because i'm posting it for
a friend.
     Any replies can be sent to rdt111@psuvm.psu.edu or by just replying
to this post.

The views expressed above are not neccisarily those of Penn State.
From: af749@cleveland.freenet.edu (Philip Ferrante)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Interfaith Marriage: Christian/Jew
Date: 9 Sep 92 08:41:49 GMT
Reply-To: af749@cleveland.freenet.edu (Philip Ferrante)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)

Does any one know of a newsgroup for discussing the problems/benefits
of Interfaith marriage between Christians and Jews?   I am also interested
in info regarding the raising of children in a Christian/Jewish home?
I would appreciate info on any and all resources,  I really need some
help on this one.

Thanks,
-- 
    __|__                  Philip D. Ferrante     PP-ASEL AGI/IGI
---o-(_)-o---              Internet:  af749@cleveland.freenet.edu

Any day you don't dent the aluminum, is a good day!
From: Steve.Gross@lambada.oit.unc.edu (Steve Gross)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: CONGRATS!!
Date: 10 Sep 92 07:42:55 GMT
Organization: Extended Bulletin Board Service

Referring to a post I made recently, two people have guessed the answer to
A RIDDLE FOR YOU :-)     correctly.

Men of extraordinarily logical brainpower no doubt, are

   1) Dan'l    -->   djdane@ns.PacBell
   2) John Ockerbloom   -->  spoke@MATHOM.GANDAL

The riddle will be up for a little while yet, so keep the answers coming. 
Check with these two if you need some extra help or clues.  I should have
another one for you to read and puzzle over in a few days.  Thanks for
trying, and always remember to have some fun.

God Bless,
Steve.Gross
--
   The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the University of
     North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the Campus Office for Information
        Technology, or the Experimental Bulletin Board Service.
           internet:  bbs.oit.unc.edu or 152.2.22.80
From: willdye@helios.unl.edu (Will Dye)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Question for fundamentalists
Date: 14 Sep 92 01:58:16 GMT
Organization: University of Nebraska - Lincoln

boe@cadsun2.slac.stanford.edu (Robert Boeninger) writes:

>As a serious sceptic, I have a fundamental question for so-called Christian 
>fundamentalists.

Hmm.  I probably wouldn't fit the title of "fundamentalist", but I have a 
lot of fundamentalist friends (and skeptic friends), so maybe I can help.

>Concerning the claimed inerrancy of the Bible, how is it possible to 
>accept as true, facts about the nature of the Bible, such as its inerrancy,
>its being inspired by God, and so on, based on the Bible making such claims
>for itself?  That would appear to be a a case of circular reasoning.

Tha's a tough one, but I'll try.  First, fundamentalists DO look to 
data outside the Bible, but since they accept the Bible already as their
hard data, and since the Bible often addresses the issue at hand, they 
wind up quoting it a lot.  

Second, the logical processes used by most people (not just fundamentalists)
are not the same as those revered by hard-core skeptics.  Most of us use the
intuitive, somewhat inductive process of finding a worldview that seems to 
'work', i.e. we can achieve most goals, minimize cognitive dissonance, etc.
This process has been, in my opinion, underrated by the sciences.  It 
doesn't always work, especially in realms outside our intuition/experience,
but reductionism hasn't worked 100% of the time either.

The beauty of reductionism is that when it does work, it gives us a level 
of unmatched certainty; certainty that others who follow the procedures 
will get the same result, certainty that even non-living entities will 
behave within the realm of the equation at hand.  This is wonderful 
stuff, and is the basis of the technology that so richly benefits us.  
It is a mistake, however, to conclude that only reductionism can find 
truth, and that reductionism can find all truths.  

This paragraph is the hardest.  How can I describe how a kid raised on 
science could accept Christianity?  It requires more time than I 
have today, but suffice to say I did it.  I don't much care for the old 
logic-vs-emotion dichotomy, but this will sound an awful lot like it:  Ya 
can't think it through, ya just gotta jump in and swim.  

--Will
From: conan@durban.berkeley.edu (David Cruz-Uribe)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Disagreeing with one's church (was Re: Clinton & Gore)
Date: 13 Sep 92 03:16:47 GMT
Organization: U.C. Berkeley Math. Department.

Liz Broadwell wrote about the "Sensus Fidelium"--the belief that 
all the faithful have, through the action of the Holy Spirit, 
a sense of the truth which can make a positive contribution 
to the understanding of the Church.

The Catholic Church has always acknowledged it and in some areas acts
on it quite willingly.  For example, the cause for the canonization of
saints must depend on a popular perception that the person in
question was saintly.  While this basic rule is subject to
modification (e.g. small religious orders pushing the causes
of their founders) causes have collapsed simply because the investigators
found no evidence that the "faithful" were aware that this person
was saintly.

In other areas there is a dynamic tension between the "sensus fidelium"
and the positive responsibility of bishops to teach and defend the
faith.  Many liberals charge (and I think at times correctly) that
the hierarchy ignores the sensus fidelium, though in their defense,
I think that in this age of fickle public opinion which is easily
swayed by secular media, it is often difficult to tell what the
"sensus fidelium" is actually saying.

Yours in Christ,

David Cruz-Uribe, SFO
From: tcryal@iastate.edu (Tod C Ryal)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: End of the World Question
Date: 10 Sep 92 07:39:23 GMT
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames IA

In <Sep.9.04.25.50.1992.21939@athos.rutgers.edu> sperry@convex.csd.uwm.edu (Robert Joseph Sperry) writes:

>September 1994?????

>Well, I'd appreciate it if one or many of you could explain the following
>to me then:
>Matthew 24:
>Mark 13:29
>Luke 21:31

According to the notes in my Bible, (Ryrie study Bible: New King James, notes
by Dr. Charles Ryrie), the word translated as "generation" in the Greek can
also mean "race" or "family".  This would make sense, the Jewish race will
be preserved in spite of terrible persecution, until the Lord comes. 
(Paraphrased from the notes, p. 1524)  My copy of the NIV also states this
in the notes.

Hope that sheds some light.
Tod C. Ryal                  

"He who testifies to these things says, "Surely I am coming quickly." Amen.
Even so, come Lord Jesus!"-Rev. 22:20
From: crawford@ben.dev.upenn.edu (Lauren L. Crawford)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: taking care of your body (was Re: where does the bible mention about smoking?)
Date: 11 Sep 92 04:16:26 GMT
Organization: University of Pennsylvania

In article <Sep.10.03.38.09.1992.24159@athos.rutgers.edu> ewanco@kalvin.enet.dec.com writes:
>
>Everything in moderation, whether it is food or wine.  Either one can cause
>us to sin.
>

Good post (lots deleted).  One nit to pick, however:  Neither food nor wine
causes us to sin.  We do it all by ourselves.  I would like to be able to
say that that snickers bar just pried open my jaws and popped itself into
my mouth, but alas ...

In sum, they can tempt us but they can't make us.



-- 
Lauren Crawford  //  crawford@ben.dev.upenn.edu

I believe we are on the irreversible trend toward more freedom and
democracy -- but that could change.   -- J. Danforth Quayle
From: boeg@idt.unit.no ([Gunnar Boe)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: End of the World?
Date: 9 Sep 92 07:47:36 GMT
Reply-To: boeg@idt.unit.no
Organization: IDT -- Norwegian Institute of Technology

In article <Sep.6.15.43.10.1992.7798@athos.rutgers.edu>, Malachi.Robertson@lambada.oit.unc.edu writes:
|> Recently I have heard from three people from varying locations speak of
|> some Christian group advertising that the world is to somehow end (or
|> something along these lines) on October 28 (I believe that was the date).
|> 
|> I was curious to know if anyone knows anything about this?  
|> 
|> "Malachi Robertson" better known as Ian Robertson Brown

I've read something about it, and as far as I can remember it's one of
the churces in Korea.  Sorry I don't know which one.
From: mjenkins@alfred.ccs.carleton.ca (Michael Jenkinson)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Sandy Patti Divorce??
Date: 16 Sep 92 03:32:29 GMT
Organization: Carleton University

Nope, its true. She has moved out of their home and filed for divorce.

According to everything I've read (and I'm a journalist by trade, and
spent my summer writing for a Christian newspaper, so that's a lot)
her husband has no real clue (or is not letting on) as to the reasons
why she is divorcing him.

All she has said, in a written statement, is that the "relationship
has been very painful" for her, and that she's been in
therapy/councilling for a year, and "after much prayer and counsel"
she reached this decision.

I saw her on Billy Graham too...makes me wonder when that was taped.
Makes me wonder if she'll continue on in Christian music....

Michael
From: jhpb@sarto.budd-lake.nj.us (Joseph H. Buehler)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: The O'Callaghan Case, part I
Date: 5 Sep 92 21:21:32 GMT
Organization: none

Wow, I think you overreacted a bit, Nichael!

You may find 7Q4 to be of more interest than 7Q5.  It has the same
paleographic dating as 7Q5, but is easier to work with.  It appears to
be a fragment of I Timothy.  I will be posting some of the articles
from 30Days on it shortly, including pro and con pieces.  I think I
have some more material on 7Q5, also.

From the Catholic perspective, there are some fundamental problems
with modern Biblical scholarship.  When it starts "proving" that
various Catholic dogmas are contradicted by the scientific evidence of
Scripture: well, that's where we part company.

An atheist can be an excellent Scripture scholar, but he won't
necessarily know much about the real meaning of Scripture.  He can
quote Scripture in his sleep, discourse at great length on textual
traditions and abstruse points of ancient Greek usage.  But, when push
comes to shove, none of this guarantees that he will understand the
real meaning of those simple words, "This is My Body."

Catholics are not rationalists; the understanding of Scripture is
essentially a matter of grace, not reason.  A life of sanctity is a
prerequisite for a real top-notch Scripture scholar.  The best and
most accepted Catholic Doctors of Sacred Scripture are all called
"Saint."
From: patsijee@phoenix.oulu.fi (Juha P{tsi)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: resurrection question
Date: 15 Sep 92 06:30:51 GMT
Organization: University of Oulu, Finland

> > You say the rich man and Lazarus story is not a parable.  I am curious as
> > to your reason why you think this.  For myself the context seems to make
> > it clear that this is a parable.  It appears to be tied in well with the
> > messages before it; for example chapter 16 of Luke starts out with a story
> > of a dishonest manager that begins "There was a rich man who..."  This is
> > the same start for the Rich man and Lazarus tale.

The stories of rich man with Lasarus and the one with dishonest manager
might have both really taken place.  At least both of them _could_ be real.
Otherwise it would make sence to use those stories in teaching.  
Even if the rich man and Lazarus story were parable  -  it is still
telling someting about the afterlife.

Juha P{tsi in Finland
From: ncoast!brown@usenet.ins.cwru.edu
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Liberal vs. Conservative
Date: 9 Sep 92 07:33:51 GMT
Organization: Oak Road Systems, Cleveland Ohio USA

In article <Sep.3.00.04.45.1992.19217@athos.rutgers.edu> jnorris@milton.u.washington.edu (Joel Norris) writes:
>In article <Sep.1.03.42.19.1992.13602@athos.rutgers.edu> mib@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Michael I Bushnell) writes:
>>This is obvious with some parts of the letter.  It is not appropriate,
>>for example, to ask "what is the text trying to say to me" in
>>reference to Romans 16:1.  ("I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a
>>deacon of the church at Cenchreae.")  

Perhaps not in the obvious way.  But it would be quite relevant in a
dispute about whether women should hold leadership positions in the
church, would it not?

-- 
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems                      brown@Ncoast.ORG

"Never try to teach a pig to sing.  You'll only waste your time and
annoy the pig."  Heinlein wrote it; I'd like to know the original source.

[In all fairness, I have to say that we don't know enough about
what is implied by the term "deacon" here for it to give us much
ammunition either way.  --clh]
From: sjreeves@eng.auburn.edu (Stan Reeves)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Clinton, Gore, and the SBC
Date: 10 Sep 92 07:34:43 GMT

ceb@dbrus.unify.com (Caroline E. Bryan) writes:
>If you caught Bill Moyers's show on PBS about the Southern Baptist denomina-
>tion a few years ago, you might reasonably conclude that the views of a tra-
>ditional Southern Baptist could well be contrary to all positions of the cur-
>rent leadership of the Southern Baptist Convention.  Moyers, also a Southern
>Baptist, pointed out that the tradition of the denomination *discourages*
>litmus tests and *encourages* independent and group study and research to
>help an individual come to a closer understanding of God.  Apparently the
>current leadership is doing its best to harm anyone who tries to adhere to
>this tradition.

A close scrutiny of SBC history that ignored buzz-words and focused on
meaning would show that the SBC has never encouraged the type of 
"independence" that denies Scripture or goes against basic orthodoxy.  
I'm not saying that this is what Moyers is doing.  All I'm saying is
that this is in large measure what the SBC conservatives are contending
against --- people who hide under the buzz-phrase "priesthood of the
believer" in order to espouse unorthodox views.

>The actions of the current SBC leader-
>ship (if they're still doing what filled the secular newspapers some years
>back (firing traditionalist professors at Southern Baptist U. and replacing
>them with outspoken and shameless bigots; forcing traditionalists out of the
>SBC leadership and replacing them with o.&s.b.; etc.)) fills me with the same
>disgust as the standard secular attempts at coercive bigotry.

Outspoken and shameless bigots?  Can you give me just one example of a
"replacement" professor who can fairly be described this way?  Granted, 
some of the activity has bordered on witch-hunting on occasion, but the
atmosphere of paranoia is understandable given the increasingly liberal
tendencies of the so-called "traditional professors."  A denomination has
the right to have people in their schools that teach what the denomination
as a whole believes.  That is not "coercive bigotry".  That's just an 
attempt to be faithful to what one believes.  When professors started 
denying the deity of Christ and the complete authority of Scripture, not
only were they violating their integrity by teaching contrary to the
statement of faith they had signed, but they were also violating the trust 
of those who payed their salary.  By and large, the removal of these men 
was justified.



Stan Reeves
Auburn University, Department of Electrical Engineering, Auburn, AL  36849
INTERNET: sjreeves@eng.auburn.edu
From: seanna@bnr.ca (Seanna (S.M.) Watson)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: cell group churches
Date: 9 Sep 92 08:45:08 GMT

I have for some time been interested in the idea of cellgroup churches.
A group that I am in a bible study with has discussed it from time to time.
One problem that has occurred to us, and has not been dealt with in any
information that I have seen is, What do you do about children?  The 
problem starts with infants, who need babysitting with all its attendant
problems of availability and cost if both parents are to be involved in 
the fellowship. As children grow older, they need to have spiritual
growth as well.  How does the small group paradigm provide fellowship
and teaching for them in a way they (the children) find significant and
interesting?  From what I have seen, the cellgroups are targetted to 
provide fellowship for Christians, and outreach to (adult) non-Christians.
My husband and I are both "1st generation" Christians (he was raised agnostic;
I was raised Jewish).  We would like to see our children be Christians,
but have no experience as to how this might be done outside of the regular
church/Sunday school/youth group paradigm (and of course the less formal
teaching and fellowship we have as a family), especially in a cellgroup 
focussed fellowship.
-- 
Seanna Watson   Bell-Northern Research, 
(seanna@bnr.ca) Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

Opinions, what opinions?  Oh *these* opinions. | It's hard to seize the
No, they're not BNR's, they're mine.           | day when you must first
I knew I'd left them somewhere.                | grapple with the morning.
From: haarsma@hussle.harvard.edu (Loren Haarsma)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: "acceptable" drug use? (literature request)
Date: 16 Sep 92 04:11:37 GMT
Organization: Harvard University

Greetings!

I'm looking for resource material (books, magazine articles, etc.) on the 
subject of drug use (not necessarily ABuse) -- primarily but not 
excusively from a Christian perspective.  (I'm a member of a group of 
Christian graduate students who meet regularly to discuss a variety of topics, 
and this topic is on the agenda.)

I'm especially interested in what Christians have written on the topics of:

(1) Is any use of intoxicating and/or mood-altering and/or potentially
additictive drugs acceptable or appropraite for Christians.  (For example, most
Christians do not object to limited use of alcohol.  What are those "limits"?)

(2) What about supposedly non-additictive drugs, hallucinogens, etc?

(3) What public-policy stance should Christians take?  (Perhaps drugs 
which SOME people can use responsibly should nevertheless be made illegal 
because of inevitable abuse by others.)

      There are other topics of interest, such as

--Medical and theraputic use of some drugs.
--"Theological implications" of the ability to artificially alter 
          one's brain chemistry.

and so forth.


      If you know of any good books or articles on the subject, or have some 
well-formulated opinions of your own, please e-mail me at:

haarsma@hussle.harvard.edu


Thanks!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"... Another victim of applied metaphysics."  |               Loren Haarsma
             --Hobbes  (_Calvin_and_Hobbes_)  |       haarsma@hussle.harvard.edu