HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
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Date:         Tue, 29 Sep 1992 14:14:16 CDT
From:         Mike Shaw <venus!mds@IEX.IEX.COM>
Subject:      Leading the Rosary

Before mass this upcoming Sunday, I have the honor of leading the parish
in the Rosary. I'm wondering, is it appropriate to share a personal reflection
of each Mystery before proceeding with the decade?

Thanks.

Mike Shaw
uunet!iex!mds
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Date:         Fri, 2 Oct 1992 16:31:21 LCL
From:         The Banshee <SUTTON_R_1@PRIME1.LANCASHIRE-POLY.AC.UK>
Subject:      Mary

(From the banshee   )

Hello everyone, (And yes that does mean everyone fundamentalists, liberals
all)
I am not going to comment on any of your discussions for the last month or so
except to say that I couldn't care less if women should be allowed to be pr
priests or not because I have never even considered the fact I might have a
vocation to that calling because I know mine lies with marriage (not that I am
yet I just live in hope.
However I need some apologetics advice (again) to diffuse a difficult
situation.  Two of my friends (one catholic and one ex catholic) are currently
arguing about the justification for giving Mary the title Mother of God.
The ex-catholic seems to consider that this would mean that Mary pre dated God
which is obviously not true.  Can you help us explain this to him.  Please
remember he hasn't been a catholic since he was a child and now attends a
baptist church.

Any advice, opinions etc.
God bless you all, you are in my prayers
Rebecca
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Date:         Sat, 3 Oct 1992 15:54:00 -0700
From:         "(Gordon C. Zaft)" <zaft@CARITAS.COTDAZR.ORG>
Subject:      Re: pre Vat II?

On Oct 2,  3:23pm, Liz Moreau wrote:
} Subject: Re: pre Vat II?
} blame me.  We are all responsible for our own salvation.  We just need
} to believe that Jesus died for our sins, repent and confess and grow
} in the Word.
}-- End of excerpt from Liz Moreau

	Hmm... but Jesus said, "you are my friends if you keep my
commandments".... how do you square that with your statement above?
Also, what about "unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood, you have
no life within you"?

GZ

--
* Gordon Zaft     Argus Consulting  4500 E. Sunrise #N-6, Tucson, AZ 85718
* zaft@caritas.cotdazr.org | noao.edu!coyote!caritas!zaft
                 Semper fidelis Christi et Vicarii sui.
No directory.
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From: jocallag@bach.helios.nd.edu (john ocallaghan)
Subject: Re: pre Vat II ?
Organization: OUC, University of Notre Dame
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1992 16:34:54 GMT

In article <1992Sep26.030958.29026@cs.tulane.edu> lang@cs.tulane.edu (Raymond Lang) writes:
>
>
>It's often said that many Catholics "lost their moorings" after VII.
>Well, I think that may be an indication that they weren't all that
>well anchored to begin with.
Dear Ray,
I don't disagree with you much at all here.  Personally I think the Council
was a gift from God, and a sign of the Holy Spirit's continuing presence
in the Church.(As blessings go, I was born in the midst of it 1962.)
Its difficult for me to know what the Church was like before the
Council.  But studying the history of the Church it becomes more
and more apparent that there is nothing new under the sun.  There have
always been periods of turmoil after Councils.  But even more
interesting is that they don't provide magic solutions to the sorts of 
dry rot problems you talked about.  Those problems are always there, both
before and after a council.  They never leave; they just mutate into
different manifestations  Being a Sunday Catholic is a vice I have to confront
every Monday, and I was thoroughly raised and undereducated in the Post-
Conciliar Church.
I think the glory of the Church before and after the Council was and is that
it sees the life of faith as precisely a life, and ordinary life has its
ups and downs for everyone, but everyone is welcome, from the worst sinner to
the greatest saint, if only they choose to to live that life in communion
with the Church, and receive the graces offered in the Church.  This is
one way I understand Christ's statement "the poor you will have with you
always."  This is a statement about all of us; we are all poor in one way
or another, and we always will be; maybe we should stop concentrating so much
on how poor we are in our own efforts, and our own attempts to make the life
of faith better, and concentrate on the riches offered to us in communion with
the life of Christ in the Church.  This is not an objection to you, as if you
did not think this or anything; rather it is more reflections I have been having
on the problems of the Church both before and after the Council.  The Glory
of the Lord is that He loves the Sunday Catholic, which means He loves me
throughout the week, even when I fail to love Him throughout the week.  The
Glory of the Lord is that He is not simply a Sunday Lord.
Peace be with you,
John
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From: jbuffer@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (James J Buffer)
Subject: Re: Catholic periodicals FAQ
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1992 03:56:41 GMT

In article <199209250741.AA00646@caritas.cotdazr.org> "(Gordon C. Zaft)" <zaft@
CARITAS.COTDAZR.ORG> writes:
>    I'm gathering information for a FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions)
>list of Catholic periodicals.  Please send info about your favorite
>periodical to me.  Criteria are that the periodical be nationally
>published, not regional.
>
>    Information requested:
>
>Name of publication:   National Catholic Register
>Publisher:  National Catholic Register
>Frequency of publication:weekly
>Cost of Subscription:$49.95 per year
>Address to write to: 12700 Ventura Blvd, Suite 200, Studio City, CA 91604K
>Phone number to call:  1-800-421-3230
>Brief description of the periodical: surveys nat'l and internat'l news of 
Catholic interest, politics, devotions, scripture, prayer, etc.
>
>    Thanks.  Once I've put this together I thought I'd post it
>monthly to this list unless people object.
>
>GZ
>
>--
>* Gordon Zaft     Argus Consulting  4500 E. Sunrise #N-6, Tucson, AZ 85718
>* zaft@caritas.cotdazr.org | noao.edu!coyote!caritas!zaft
>                 Semper fidelis Christi et Vicarii sui.
>Classified material requires proper storage.
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From: pol30546@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Peder Larsen)
Subject: Re: Fatima: warning or prediction
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 22:00:15 GMT

stevev@miser.uoregon.edu (Steve VanDevender) writes:

>By the same token I suppose I should be worrying about how
>disappointed you're going to be when you die and find out that
>it's nothing like what you were expecting -- or just keep living
>on into the future past when you think the Millenium is supposed
>to happen.

	What?  I'm sorry, you lost me here.

>There are much more important issues to think about than what's
>going to happen to all those people who happen to have different
>religious beliefs than you do.  I would rather see a lot of
>people putting their effort into trying to respect other
>people's beliefs rather than worrying about how to convert them
>to "the truth".

	Oh, I think I understand most of the above post now.  BTW,
you're not Christian are you?
>--
>Steve VanDevender 	stevev@greylady.uoregon.edu
>"Bipedalism--an unrecognized disease affecting over 99% of the population.
>Symptoms include lack of traffic sense, slow rate of travel, and the
>classic, easily recognized behavior known as walking."
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Date:         Sat, 26 Sep 1992 16:27:45 CDT
From:         "(Edward J. Branley)" <elendil@MINTIR.NEW-ORLEANS.LA.US>
Subject: Re: Kneeling in church (how long a tradition?)

"(Joseph H. Buehler)" <rex!SARTO.BUDD-LAKE.NJ.US!jhpb> writes:

> In article <1992Sep26.040014.17512@cs.tulane.edu> lang@cs.tulane.edu (Raymond
> Lang) writes:
>
>    How long has it been since Catholic churches have even had pews and
>    kneelers?  My understanding (which may be a misconception) is that
>    we got the idea from the protestants, and that Catholic churches have
>    only had pews and kneelers for the last 150-200 years.  Supposedly,
>    they started to become widely installed as part of a liturgical reform
>    effort to bring those in attendance into closer participation.
>    Apparently, before churches had pews, it was common for people to just
>    sort of mill about the church practicing their own private devotions
>    during Mass (not surprising when you consider that the priest said
>    the whole Mass in Latin with his back to the people).
>
> Kneeling has been part of Catholic Tradition for a *very* long time.
>
> Priests and bishops who remove kneelers from the churches are doing so
> because they've lost the Faith; they have become Protestants.  There's
> really no other reason.

Hmmm...well, how do you explain churches that never had kneelers in the first
place?  Protestant architects?




|Edward J. Branley                         elendil@mintir.New-Orleans.LA.US|
|Seashell Software                                UUCP:  rex!mintir!elendil|
|3508 North Woodlawn Avenue                          Compu$erve: 71237,2227|
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From: PIATKONM@SNYBUFVA.BITNET (Nancy M. Piatkowski)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Martha & Mary
Date: 4 Oct 92 14:12:09 GMT
Organization: from SUNY College at Buffalo, NY 14222
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In reply to Gordon advising me/us to sit at the feet of the Master-
the only way we survive- the only way I personally survive, is to sit at the
feet of the Master - in prayer and in Eucharist.  As someone once told me - the
only way to reach someone's soul- to feed them spiritually is to make sure
their corporal needs are met first- if they are humgry feed them, if they are
naked clothe them, if they are homeless shelter them, if they weep comfort
them-  to be a contemplative in the world is a great challenge. I keep an icon
of the Prophet Elijah over my workspace to remind me to listen for the voice of
God in everything I do-
Nancy
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From: pol30546@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Peder Larsen)
Subject: Re: sinead o'connor
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 02:59:37 GMT

oneil@cwis.unomaha.edu (Sharon O'Neil) writes:

>Why do you assume those in the audience are "godless?"

 I don't think he was.  He was simply stating how non-Catholics and 
 non-Christians seem to respect the Pope.

>Although, I can really understand how some people are just plain sick and
>tired of the wars that happen in the name of religion -- whether that 
>religion be Catholicism, Protestantism or Islam.

 I don't know about you but I don't consider Catholicism and Protestantism
 to be different religions.  They have many differences of course in their
 respective approaches but the religion for both is Christianity.

>>No organization fights harder for human rights, peace, and social change
>>than the Catholic Church.  In my opinion, no organization carries the
>>light of Christ to the world more effectively than the Catholic Church.

>Well, hmmm, I think there are a lot of great Protestant churches who 
>do a LOT of work for human rights, peace and social change.  Foremost in
>my mind: the United Church of Christ, the United Methodist Church, and
>the Disciples of Christ.

 I have always had the impresion that all Christian churches have this as 
 one of their duties.  I know of many churches that are active in these
 respects both on the local level and on national and international levels.
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Organization: The American University
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Date:         Wed, 30 Sep 1992 01:51:36 EDT
From:         Jim McIntosh <JIM@AMERICAN.EDU>
Subject:      Re: jokes
              29 Sep 1992 13:53:56 -0700 from <zaft@CARITAS.COTDAZR.ORG>

On Tue, 29 Sep 1992 13:53:56 -0700 (Gordon C. Zaft) said:
>                 It's a golf joke, obviously....

How about the one...

A priest and a nun are heading out to play golf. At the first tee, The
nun swings and hits a hole-in-one. The priest swings, misses and mutters
"Damn, I missed." The nun is, of course, shocked to hear such language
from Father.

At the next hole, the same thing happens. The nun gets a hole-in-one. The
priest swings, misses and swears "Damn. I missed." The nun is now visibly
bothered by this.

At the third hole, once again the nun gets a hole-in-one and the priest
misses the ball. "Damn!" He swears, "I missed." The nun can now no longer
control herself. "Father," she warns the priest, "if you talk like that
God will punish you."

They proceed to the next hole, where the nun scores her usual hole-in-one
and the priest again misses the ball. "Damn!" He yells, "I missed."

Suddenly the sky gets dark and thunder rolls. A bolt of lightening shoots
out of the sky and hits the nun. "Damn!" a voice says from the sky, "I
missed."
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Date:         Sun, 27 Sep 1992 22:37:22 HST
From:         "(Len Howard)" <tas@PEGASUS.COM>
Subject:      Re: Hello?
              (Sep 27, 12:04am)

Well, John, you made it all the way to Hawaii from Vanderbilt.  Guess
that means you got out of the local system O.K.

Now haw it is that you might think we are just going to have to find
out <grin>

Shalom,                          Len Howard

(sorry that should be HOW it is that you might think.  My editor does
not allow for editing.........<?>
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Date:         Sat, 26 Sep 1992 14:41:00 EDT
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From:         Liz Moreau <EMOREAU@UMASSD.EDU>
Subject:      Re: pre Vat II?

>Careful, careful careful.  For you as a Catholic, you wouldn't want to suggest
>that as a Catholic you could walk away from the Church and not walk away from
>your faith would you?  Don't you mean that local community?  But I have to

Yes, I honestly believe I could walk away from the church.  IMHO, the
body of believers are the church.

>admit, here I am very old church.  One does not pick one's parish.  God
>places you in a community for better or worse.  What these people are doing
>may be quite irregular and at times dangerous for the community; but your
>duty is to the Church which is there in that local community.  You have
>I think an obligation to remain, unless your presence becomes a danger
>to your own faith; and then you must seek help.  What would happen if
>everyone got up and left who could help their local community?  That
>community would suffer.  We have to bathe the wounds, if we see them.

I do see your point and have wrestled with this.  On the other hand am
I being a good steward of what God has given me if I continue to
contribute every week and these funds will be used to promote
teachings I feel are wrong!  It is a very hard situation.

>a jab at Episcopalians, but it seems that somewhere those people lost sight
>of what there Church is.  Maybe we could pray for them.  Anyway, the point
>was that just as often as we celebrate in the Church, sometimes we have to
>suffer in the Church.

Over the years I have been to other churches with friends (as they
have come with me to mine).  They are very attractive.  They have a
warmth that the Catholic Church (in my area) lacks.  They have a
terrific teaching ministry.  I have learned more at other churches
then I have at mine in 36 years.

My prayers for our church is that we will reach out to people and
teach them that they may grow in the Word.  We need to equip people
with what Jesus wanted taught.  We need more forceful sermons and not
sermons that daintly tap around the issues so they don't convict or
those sermons that expouse eastern mysticism.

>John
>P.S. I would like to encourage you also, not to sit passively by, but
>also not to leave.  God bless.

Thank you John!
					God Bless,

						Liz
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From: dschenke@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Dennis L Schenkel)
Subject: To kneel or not to kneel...to suffer the slings and arrows...
Organization: The Ohio State University
Distribution: na
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1992 06:58:42 GMT

Later this morning, I will attend mass at the "St. Thomas More" Newman Center 
on the campus of the Ohio State University.  Given that special circumstances 
(like children's masses, or perhaps campus ministries) may allow for variance 
from standard forms, I am at a loss about what to do during the consecration.

As usual, I anticipate that I will be filled with a strong urge to kneel as a 
sign of reverance, and as a way of disciplining myself to the mind and presence
of Christ.  There are no kneelers, just rows and rows of chairs, but that will 
not intimidate me.

However, the sign flashed on the screen at the front of the nave (where the 
words to hymns are projected) will read something like, "Please be seated 
during the consecration so that everyone may see."  And like sheep, everyone 
will sit down.

As a member of the flock, and in a desire to engage in the outward sign of 
unity that occurs when all of us 'sit' at the same time, I will be very 
conflicted.

I want to kneel. The pastor (via slide projector) tells me to sit. My brothers 
and sisters will be sitting.  But sitting is abhorent to me.  What should I do

I probably will kneel anyway and put up with stares or comments, but response 
from the group would certainly be helpful for next week.

Dennis Schenkel, English Grad Stu, Ohio State
-- 




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From: tas@PEGASUS.COM ((Len Howard))
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Re: Belief
Date: 26 Sep 92 20:32:25 GMT
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              (Sep 26,  4:50pm)

Hi John,
     Owen Thomas is Fiske Professor of Systemic Theology, Episcopal
Divinity School, Cambridge, MA.
     I was struck by your mention of Peter saying to Jesus "You are
the Christ", i.e. direct and personal, then after Pentecost he says
"He is Lord and Christ" which is preaching and one step removed from
the personal encounter, then for us today being centuries removed from
the personal encounter.  I suppose this is a common theme in
theological teaching however.  His "Introduction to Theology" is the
text we are usisemester on Theology in the Diocesan Institute here in
Hawaii.
          ShaloJohn,                    Len
                                           tas@peagsus
From: elendil@mintir.new-orleans.la.us (Edward J. Branley)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Re: relative importance of various doctrines (pt 2 of 2)
Date: Thu, 01 Oct 92 08:52:26 CDT
Organization: Minas Tirith BBS (Public Access Usenet for New Orleans)

"(Joel Neisen)" <joel@MSC.EDU> writes:

> Will Bralick  (wbralick@afit.af.mil) writes:
> >During one RCIA session the leader person told the catechumens that
> >they ``didn't _have_ to pray to Mary or the saints.''  Well, this is
> >technically correct, but what impression were these non-Catholics left
> >with?  The leader person never bothered to explained _why_ Catholics
> >pray to Mary and the saints.
>
> I don't believe that Catholics are taught to pray TO the saints, as that woul
> be a form of idolotry.  Rather we seek the intercession of the saints
> on our behalf.  That is, just as I might ask a friend to pray for me, I might
> seek the intercession the saint and angels, or to have the pray FOR/WITH me
> to the one living God.
>

One must address one's petitions *to* a saint when one asks for their
intercession.  If one wants to pray directly to God, then one doesn't really
need the saint.  Is prayer to a saint idolotry?  I don't think so.  You're
asking the saint to intercede with God, not to do something God-like.

Asking a friend to pray for you and asking a saint to intercede on your behalf
are two quite different things.  While you hope that your friend one day may
see God, you *know* that the saint already has.



>Edward J. Branley         elendil@mintir.new-orleans.la.us<
>Seashell Software, Metairie, LA            +1-504-455-5087<
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Date:         Tue, 6 Oct 1992 10:05:40 HST
From:         "(Len Howard)" <tas@PEGASUS.COM>
Subject:      Re: Authority on the Church...
              Church..." (Oct  6,  2:28am)

Kim, the subject that would interest me would be the answer to the
question, "How much is the doctrine of the Church affected by the
present cultural norms of the society in which the Church exists?" Or,
to state it another way, "Is the Church of Rome _always_ going to base
its policies on what happend a thousand years ago, and ignore what is
taking place now?"
    There has been an information explosion, technological explosion,
and scientific explosion.  We are facing situations, problems and
questions today that we did not even conceive of 50 years ago.  What
provision for change based on these deveolpments exists within the
Church of Rome?
Shalom,                              Len Howard
                                     tas@pegasus.com
PS, I am impressed that His Eminence would be willing to take time to
respond to the Net.
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From: eharbin@convex.com (Edward Harbin)
Subject: Re: Women are unclean
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 14:19:51 GMT
Organization: Engineering, CONVEX Computer Corp., Richardson, Tx., USA
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

In <920929085837.28e0134d@ASTRO.CS.HH.AB.COM> URSIC@ASTRO.CS.HH.AB.COM writes:

>Oh, I see, it's the period thing, women are unclean. They obviously represent
>what is dirty and icky in the world like menstruation, childbirth and sex.

Why do the politically correct spend so much energy attributing 
vile thoughts to those who disagree with them? Whose vile thought is it? 

>- J.J. (don't take this as a personal flame, Gordon, some of us Catholics will
>never grow tired of arguing for equality)

Why would anyone ever take such a thing personally?
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