HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: glenn@misty.boeing.com (Glenn Cirlincione)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
Subject: Re: Porsche at Le Mans (was Re: F1 Stuff)
Date: 16 Nov 92 20:56:38 GMT
Organization: Boeing Commercial Airplane BCS Support

/ misty:rec.autos.sport / thos@suite.sw.oz.au (Thomas Cohen) /  1:36 pm  Nov 15, 1992 /
In <BxH5ts.Lux@umassd.edu> rgolen@UMASSD.EDU writes:

>As a result of FIA's ban on moveable aerodynamic devices in early 1969
>the flaps were made non-moveable for the 69 LeMans. This upset the
>aerodynamics of the 917 Long and Short tails considerably. One effect
>of this was the death of English privateer John Woolfe when his 917
>went out of control as the rear wheels lost contact with the ground
>I believe at the end of the Mulsanne during the opening laps.

Actually at White House (La Maison Blanche).

>short tail version had enhanced stability. Porsche continued to
>develop its "long tailed" version for LeMans, but with large
>vertical fins joined by a horizontal wing. Interestingly enough,
>the special LeMans versions never won the race, and were marginally
>faster per lap than their short tailed bretheren.

They were much faster along Mulsanne (Jo Siffert saw 236mph+ in 1971,
and maintained that the speed measuring point was not at the fastest
point of the straight).
John Wyer, a clear thinking man, always maintained that it was
unnecessary to tune the car for all-out speed at Le Mans, as Mulsanne
was only a fraction of the entire lap, and whatever speed you gained
on the straight you lost in handling over the rest of the course - and
he was right. Also interesting was that the 917s were getting over 
200 mph 4 times a lap!

regards,
-- 
thos cohen                  ,not a typo        |Softway Pty Ltd
"It's not so bad to be a lair but a conniving  |ACSnet:         thos@softway.oz
 egomaniac is not really that socially accept- |UUCP: ...!uunet!softway.oz!thos
 able."  SMH, 2 Nov 92, P. Keating vs J. Hewson|Internet:    thos@softway.oz.au
----------
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
From: jcsmith@eos.ncsu.edu (Jay C. Smith)
Subject: Re: US Citizenship (was: Andretti)
Organization: North Carolina State University, Project Eos
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 21:36:49 GMT

In article <1992Nov18.223804.18398@news.clarkson.edu> 
taylor@sun.soe.clarkson.edu (Ross Taylor,Peyt312,6652,2655436) writes:
>Note that if NM (or any one else) does what Robert says, he/she
>does not lose their UK citizenship.  The only way to lose UK
>citizenship is to renounce it in front of a representative of the
>Queen (the consulate staff I suppose).  This is true for UK
>citizens but may not be true for other nationals; it depends
>on the laws of the other country, not so much on the laws of the US.

But (and *please* correct me if I'm wrong), I think that an item Robert left 
off his list of requirements to become a US citizen is that one must renounce 
all foreign citizenships.  But I don't know if NM would be required to do it 
in front of an official British representative, so it may not count under 
British law.

I know, I know, I've heard people brag about having "dual citizenship," as in 
"I can vote in the US Presidential election and the French elections," etc.,
but I think that's only because many voter registrars are more concerned 
about checking residency than citizenship.  Heck, I'm not even sure if 
citizenship is required to vote in the US (it seems like it should be, but 
then congressional districts are determined by residents, whether they are 
citizens or illegal aliens).  But it is also my understanding that dual 
citizenship is not allowed for US citizens who have reached the age of 
majority.  A special, and mostly honorary, exception was made for Winston 
Churchill.

And to bring this back to the original subject:  FYI, the area of Italy in 
which Mario Andretti spent his early years later became part of Yugoslavia, 
and I think it is now part of Slovenia.

--
Jay C. Smith
Domain/internet: jcsmith@eos.ncsu.edu
------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Good.  For a minute I thought we were in trouble."
From: gfg@bohr.physics.purdue.edu (Gabriele F. Giuliani)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
Subject: Re: Parmalat
Date: 16 Nov 92 16:54:28 GMT

I see, Parma is a French city and "latte" means milk in French. Uhmmmmm!
Interesting. Does this make the colosseum a French monument in Paris? gfg

Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
From: b102smi@utarlg.uta.edu (George M. Smiley)
Subject: Re: I asked Michael (Michael a F1 driver, NOT!)
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: The University of Texas at Arlington
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 17:28:00 GMT

gfg@bohr.physics.purdue.edu (Gabriele F. Giuliani) writes...
>(i) As far as the statement that Michael Andretti is a F1 driver: he is not.
>He will become one soon hopefully, but his training is in Indy cars (yellow
>flags and all). It is not obvious that his dominating of Indy cars racing
>will make him an instant- or otherwise - success in F1. As much as I would 
>like to see that happening (for one it would expose more of the USA public 
>to F1) I am not holding my breath for it.  
>  
>Cheers, gfg
> 

Andretti dominanting Indy cars ? You have a very short memory, one
championship in ten years hardly qualifies as dominating. I think the
notion that Andretti will bring more exposure to F1 is equally dubious.
Aside from the Indy 500, Indy cars isn't watch by that many more Americans
than F1. Perhaps if a top Nascar driver joined F1 exposure might increase.
Didn't Bill Elliot test an Indy car ?

George
From: smithr@teecs.UUCP (Robert Smith)
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 18:47:10 GMT
Subject: Corvette GS ??
Organization: Litton Systems, Toronto ONT
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport

Does anyone know if there are any of the Corvette Gran Sports still
in existence? I think only four or five escaped the factory before
the line was shut down. The last one I saw was at the 1966 Players 200
at Mosport; george HGeorge Wintersteen had turned it into a coupe and was
racing against a mixed bag including sports racers (group 7).

Bob.
From: pete@minster.york.ac.uk
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
Subject: Re: Schumacher for 1993 champion?
Date: 17 Nov 92 12:29:23 GMT
Organization: Department of Computer Science, University of York, England

Daniel Ong (humpty@tartarus.uwa.edu.au) wrote:

: [ I wrote ]
: >I reckon the top few places next season will be something like this:
: 
: >	3)	Berger
: >	7)	Alesi
: Interesting to note how far placed Berger and Alesi are!  

Jean is too erratic, I think, to place as well as Berger over a whole
season. I reckon he'll put in a couple of storming drives, but on the whole
I think he will make mistakes and get too frustrated.

pete
--
*Peter Fenelon -- Research Associate -- Software Safety Assessment Procedures*
Dept. of Computer Science, University of York, York, Y01 5DD (+44/0)904 433388
EMAIL: pete@minster.york.ac.uk `There's no room for enigmas in built up areas'
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
From: afinlayson@kean.ucs.mun.ca
Subject: Re: Yet more trivia from Autosport (Answers -- finally!)
Organization: Memorial University. St.John's Nfld, Canada
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 00:50:07 GMT

In article <1992Nov16.201733.28522@iscnvx.lmsc.lockheed.com>, mcclure@force.ssd.lmsc.lockheed.com writes:
> In article <8720@dirac.physics.purdue.edu>, gfg@bohr.physics.purdue.edu (Gabriele F. Giuliani) writes:
>>.... wait a moment, .. a plane? I thought the great Graham Hill died in a
>>damn helicopter crash. Can anyone confirm/wet this? gfg
>>
>>
> 
> Gabriele,
> Graham Hill died in a light plane (i.e., small private job) along with Carlos
> Pace.  I believed that they were returning from or going to a test session
> (where I don't remember, might have been Argentina or Brazil?).  I believe
> that Graham was the pilot at that time.  I will try to dig up my notes when
> I get home tonight.
> Kent M. McClure
> Auto racing afficionado and member of San
> Jose IPMS chapter.
> My views are what they are, like them or not.

From memory...it was a twin engined prop job and there was some speculation
that the cause of the crash was a cabin door or baggage compartment door
coming open during flight.  Anyone else remember more...or better...
or have actual documentary sources?

Chris Finlayson
From: stoffel@oasys.dt.navy.mil (William Stoffel)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
Subject: Re: I asked Michael
Date: 17 Nov 92 18:26:04 GMT
Reply-To: stoffel@oasys.dt.navy.mil (William Stoffel)
Organization: Annapolis Detachment, CARDEROCKDIV, NSWC

In rec.autos.sport, gfg@bohr.physics.purdue.edu (Gabriele F. Giuliani) writes:
(in part)

>Count me too. In fact Andretti "the elder" is basically the ONLY american
>driver in recent times (what, 30 years or so?) to be really successful in
>both types of racing (USA stuff AND F1). Not only did he won a F1 world

Not to pick nits, but ol A.J.won a couple of road races too. (Le Mans,
Daytona 24, Sebring too I think). It was his choice to not run F1, which
he never had any use for. Besides, he was born in the USA. I'm fairly
certain Mario was born in Italy.

Just my 2 lira worth. - Bill

__________________________________________________________________________
Bill Stoffel              |  CARDEROCKDIV, NSWC  |First things first!     |
stoffel@oasys.dt.navy.mil |  Code 2759           | (But not necessarily in|
(410) 267-3825            |  Annapolis, MD 21402 |that order) - The Doctor|
_________________________________________________|________________________|
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
From: dwv@cbnewsc.cb.att.com (Dave Vollman)
Subject: who is in IROC for 1993?
Organization: HASA "S" Division
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 01:54:40 GMT


	Does anyone know who will be in IROC in 1993. Interesting
	thoughts are that:
	
	1) Mansell will be in the states, what's the possibility
	   of him being in it? However, I've never remembered
	   either Mario or MIchael Andretti being in it. Does the
	   Newman-Hass contract forbid other series?
	
	2) Senna appears to be sitting out next year. Bring him
	   up from Brazil and let him and Nige go at it with
	   fenders on. One of them could get lessons from
	   Dale E. and the other from Swervin' Irvan :-).
	
	   
	
	Sure, IROC is a great concept, but there is a huge advantage
	for the GOBs. Given that however, there is some unbelievable,
	exciting and very entertaining racing. I'll usually pop an
	IROC tape in mid-december for a fix.
	
	
-- 
				| Dave Vollman (HASA "S" Division)
  If I have a choice for the	| AT&T Bell Laboratories, Naperville, IL
  next life, trained seal is 	| Email: dwv@ihlpm.att.com
  looking damn good!		| AT&T would never let ME speak for THEM!
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
From: marti@nugget.inf.ethz.ch (Robert Marti)
Subject: Re: Porsche at Le Mans (was Re: F1 Stuff)
Organization: Dept. Informatik, Swiss Federal Institute of Technology (ETH), Zurich, CH
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 09:07:28 GMT

In article <thos.722488360@suite.sw.oz.au>, thos@suite.sw.oz.au
(Thomas Cohen) writes:
|> John Wyer was right because he had an awful lot of experience of
|> endurance racing.
[ ... ]
|> Based on Porsche's record at Le Mans, you'd be wise to use a short-tail,
|> because the long-tails never won there.

I'd just like to point out that
- in 1970, John Wyer ran three Porsche 917, all of which were short-
  tails, and he didn't win Le Mans
- in 1971, John Wyer ran a 917K as a third entry (with Siffert/Bell
  and Rodriguez/Oliver in long-tail cars), and he didn't win either
  (although the K came home 2nd while the long-tails dropped out)

So, yes, the long-tails didn't win, but neither did the _John_Wyer_
short-tails.

-- 
Robert Marti                    |  Phone:    +41 1 254 72 60
Informationssysteme             |  FAX:      +41 1 262 39 73
ETH-Zentrum                     |  E-Mail:   marti@inf.ethz.ch
CH-8092 Zurich, Switzerland     |
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
From: rgolen@UMASSD.EDU
Subject: Re: Porsche at Le Mans (was Re: F1 Stuff)
Reply-To: rgolen@UMASSD.EDU
Organization: UMASS DARTMOUTH, NO. DARTMOUTH, MA.
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 18:36:56 GMT

In article <winders-171192165258@macwinders.support.apple.com>, winders@aux.support.apple.com (Scott Winders) writes:
>
>If John Wyer is right, why did Porsche spend so much time and money
>designing and testing long-tail cars just for Le Mans? Based on their
>record there, I would say they did the right thing. Also, Le Mans has
>many straights. Porsche often tested long-tail and short-tail cars
>on the track at the same time. Once setup, the long-tail cars always
>had faster lap times.....
>
>
>Scott Winders
>winders@aux.support.apple.com
>
>
In theory Porsche may have been right, but testing and racing are
two different animals.

In 1970 Vic Elford qualified his 917 LH only 1.3 seconds faster than
the fastest John Weyer 917K (both cars with the 4.9 litre motor).

Elford's car (co driven with Kurt Ahrens) went out at 8:30 am with
a fractured valve spring. The remaining LH finished second, though
with a misfire (probably caused by the rain). It is interesting
to note that the winning 917 consumed 45.2 liters for each 100km while
the surviving LH consumed 38.6.

For 1971 Porsche provided 3 LHs for the LeMans race. Fastest lap for
the LH in 71 was 3'18.7 vs 3'21.0 for 1970. One LH lost its cooling
fan and overheated, the second, first seized a wheel bearing (thought
to have been from lack of cooling sue to enclosed rear wheel wells), and then b
then burst an oil line. The third retired due to a cracked cranckase.

In the book "917 - The Ultimate Weapon", Ian Bamley writes: "While
the LH had been by far the fastest car at LeMans, this year (1971)
its fuel consumption advantage had been marginal, and its pad
wear had been twice as high as that of the K."

It is interesting to note that in 1971, Porsche built a short-tailed
car called the 917/20 which was named "Berta the Pig". It was short
and wide, its design was based on the idea of getting the advantages
of the long-tail car without the long tail. The car qualified at
3'21.0. Its design features found their way into the 917/30 Can-Am
cars as well as through the line up to the 962. It was said the 
917/20 had the stability of the K and the drag coeficient of the LH.

Ric Golen
From: esprit@netcom.com (Alan F. Perry)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
Subject: Lotus chassis IDs (was: Lola chassis ID's)
Date: 22 Nov 92 18:28:52 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)

In article <722265596.9943@minster.york.ac.uk> pete@minster.york.ac.uk writes:
>LOTUS
>-----
>
>Type numbers increasing with time; roman up to X; Seven and Eleven
>always spelled out, Arabic after the 12 -- see Crombac's book for most
>of the types.

I am not sure which Crombac book you are referring to (obviously not
his horrid Esprit book), but, as a list of the different Lotus type
numbers, I think Anthony Pritchard's _Lotus:_All_The_Cars_ is the best,
though it concentrates on the race cars and seems to borrow a lot from
Doug Nye's _Theme_Lotus_, THE book on Team Lotus (through the 98T).

>               Occasionally different racing and production cars shared
>type numbers -- the ``named'' production cars also have type numbers,
>which are seldom used.

Obviously, you do not subscribe to the Lotus mailing list.  We 
recently had a discussion on which S2 Europas were Type 54 and which were
Type 65.  There is also the 26R, the racing version of the Elan and 
the 47, the racing version of the Europa (the 46).

>which are seldom used. The system re-unified recently; this explains some 
>of the jumps in the sequence of F1 cars. (although some interesting holes
>are explicable by things like the Indycar to have been run by Winkelmann in
>the Eighties...)

The overlap in road car/race car Type numbers started in the 70s.  There
seemed to be some distancing between the factory and the race team going
on.  Some claim that the "log book" for the Type numbers was lost during
this time.  With the exception of the new Elan (type 100), the race team
and factory resynced the numbers in the early 80s.  It helped that the
last new road car Type number before the new Elan was the Type 89 (Excel).

The Winkelmann Indycar was not a hole in the sequence.  It is Type 96.

Also, the Lotus race cars with turbochargers (in the 80s) had a "T" appended
to their type number.

Anything else?

-- 
-----------------------------------+----------------------------------------
Alan F. Perry                      | "e-mail is wrecking my life"
esprit@netcom.com        (home)    |            - some random person 
allan@hakkinen.lynx.com  (work)    |              standing in San Francisco
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
From: igb@fulcrum.co.uk (Ian G Batten)
Subject: Re: IndyCar v F1, retiring, old men, etc <long
Followup-To: soc.culture.british
Organization: Fulcrum Communications
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 16:45:43 GMT

In article <184324@pyramid.pyramid.com> danjones@pyrps5.eng.pyramid.com (Dan Jones) writes:
> F1 just doesn't make a big deal out of it like Indy racing does.  I
> think that the number of drivers that are married, and the number of
> drivers that have children are pretty similar for both series.  You
> just never hear about this in F1.

Likewise it's only the pernicious influence of America that means we're
exposed to Politicians' wives and children.  Of late Major and Smith and
so on are parading about with their families.  Bring back Ted'n'Harold,
I say.

Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
From: jaslow@bissun.kodak.com (Russell Jaslow)
Subject: Japanese Racing Information Wanted.
Originator: jaslow@bissun
Organization: Eastman Kodak
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 92 16:58:57 GMT

[The last time I requested information (for Brainerd and Road America), I
never made the trip.  Hopefully, this will not be a jinx.]

My company is sending me to Tokyo, Japan for the month of December.  I would
love to check out some racing, or even some empty race tracks (they do get
some wintry weather, so the season may not be going on now) while I'm there.

I need information on race tracks and clubs in Japan.  Phone numbers, 
directions, anything that will help me.  I will most likely not have access
to a car, so information pertaining to the trains getting to these places
would also be needed.  I will be working in Yokohama and staying in Tokyo.

Please email me any information you may have.  I will be leaving in just
a few days.

If I get a chance to see something race related, I will certainly report
about it when I get back.

Domo Arigato!
-- 
Russell Jaslow         |Spec Racer #33 Finger Lakes Reg|NY RANGERS|My employer
Eastman Kodak Company  |In memorium: Andrew Spiller,   |and the   |has nothing
Rochester, New York    |Cynthia Bishop Halstead.  Keep |Cup!  Why |to do with
jaslow@bissun.kodak.com|the damn drunks off our roads! |not dream?|my drivel.
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
From: wlay@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Radio 90.1 FM WLAY Tarkington Hall)
Subject: World 600
Organization: Purdue University Computing Center
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 00:45:24 GMT

I just read this in the new AutoWeek, but I haven't seen it on the Net, so I'll
post it for those who haven't heard somehow...(not a quote)
It's been announced that the 1993 World 600 will start at 4:30 p.m. EDT
on May 30... Charlotte will continue to get their money's worth out of that
multi-million dollar light system.

That'll make one helluva double-header for the couch-potato crowd:
Indy at noon (we NASCAR fans will hold our outdoor festivities then!)
and the 600 at 4:30...

Gentlemen, start your barbecues!

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
  Ron Steve, Station Manager      |  "My views are my own and do not 
  Radio 90.1 FM WLAY              |   reflect those of WLAY, Tarkington 
  Tarkington Hall                 |   Hall, or (especially) Purdue 
                                  |   University!!"
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

 90.1 FM  WLAY  Tarkington Hall -=- "West Lafayette's Get Lucky Radio Station."
From: gfg@bohr.physics.purdue.edu (Gabriele F. Giuliani)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
Subject: Re: I asked Michael
Date: 16 Nov 92 16:44:25 GMT
Organization: Purdue University Psychic Department

Count me too. In fact Andretti "the elder" is basically the ONLY american
driver in recent times (what, 30 years or so?) to be really successful in 
both types of racing (USA stuff AND F1). Not only did he won a F1 world
championship but, quite surprisingly, also managed to put a Ferrari on the 
pole at Monza in 1980(?) while substituting on a short note for an injured 
Ferrari driver. In fact I find that Emerson Fittipaldi's success in Indy 
cars after his "retirement" is no big deal: It is "the other way
around" that it is much more problematic. Do you know of any american
trained driver to retire to F1 and ... be successful? Well, I sure don't. 
For this reason I will be really interested to see how the dominant Indy car
racer, Andretti "the younger", will compare with the rest of the F1 drivers.
Looking forward to the end of the "news season" and the beginning of the
new season.
From: danjones@pyrps5.eng.pyramid.com (Dan Jones)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
Subject: Re: IndyCar v F1, retiring, old men, etc <long
Date: 18 Nov 92 06:46:35 GMT
Organization: Pyramid Technology Corporation, Mountain View

Andrew Welter writes:

>Also, I know wife shots are pretty annoying during racing, but I do
>wonder, how many F1 drivers are married with families?  Seems like 
>most Indycar drivers are, but you rarely seem to hear about F1 wives.

F1 just doesn't make a big deal out of it like Indy racing does.  I
think that the number of drivers that are married, and the number of
drivers that have children are pretty similar for both series.  You
just never hear about this in F1.

Dan Jones
From: bj@cbmvax.commodore.com (Brian Jackson - Amiga Networking)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
Subject: Re: Mansell v. Andretti and co. (rallying note)
Date: 16 Nov 92 04:25:17 GMT
Reply-To: bj@cbmvax.commodore.com (Brian Jackson - Amiga Networking)
Organization: Commodore, West Chester, PA
Keywords: next year

In article <1992Nov13.215446.25229@maths.tcd.ie> madmax@maths.tcd.ie (Mark Taylor) writes:
>
>	Just, more a question than anything else. But do the 
>American readers of this group believe that Mansell will be able
>to cope with the hard men of CART like Mario Andretti and Al 
>Unser (daddy) next year. If you ask me he will be just as 
>irritated by the way they drive as he is about Senna etc. The
>thing is that Andretti and the like will just blow him away.
>I think Mansell would be better off in the more prima-donnaish (sp?)
>F1 and then amongst the men of Cart. Comments?

I'm not sure what you mean by "hard men of CART" (btw, it's now
"IndyCar" :)).  That description might have been more apt in the olden
days "when men were men" and the cars were made to be unbreakable
(literally.)  But nowaday, IndyCar is mostly road racing and it is
full of road racers (many with F1 backgrounds.)  

The tone of your question suggests a certain mythology about the Indy
500 itself.  The fact is that, aside from the ovals, IndyCar racing is
pretty much the same as F1 racing. The biggest differences are (1) the
F1 cars are WAAAY more technically advanced (F1 thrives on nationalism
and technical competition as much as it does on racing itself) and
(2) F1 has a more exagerated sense of it's importance in the world
than does IndyCar.  

I suspect that Mr Mansell will acquit himself just fine, Thank you.
He has given every indication over the past couple of years that the
insane pressure of F1 racing was something he'd be happy to be rid of
(even Senna says he won't race just for the "fun" of it any more) so the
reduced pressure of IndyCar racing (even for the reigning World Champion)
should be to his liking.

>Mark

Brian
       +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +
       Brian Jackson    Amiga Networking Group, Commodore-Amiga Inc.
                        bj@cbmvax.commodore.com
                       uva uvam vivendo varia fit 
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport