From: emarsh@hernes-sun.Eng.Sun.COM (Eric Marsh)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: On Power
Date: 10 Sep 1992 19:49:35 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Mt. View, Ca.
NNTP-Posting-Host: hernes-sun

In article <79444@ut-emx.uucp> evc@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Edward Van Cura) writes:

>>From: Morgan 25
>>At least some of you have accepted
>>the fact that we are not Satanists, that we do not seek power
>>and that we seek to harm no one.  And for this, I am grateful.

>                             On Power

>         Since when did the pagans transcend the human race? 
>                      All people seek power.

If one wishes to have control over ones own life, then it is
necessary to have power. 

Some people do not wish control over their own lives, and so give 
their power to others; not all people seek power.

>If one had a job and was offered either $4/hr or $100/hr for that job,
>which choice would be made?  The power to consume. 
>Money speaks, people listen.   Money = Power. 

I think that this is too general an assumption. Most people would
take the $100, but others may not. It depends on the job, one's
philosophy and one's motivation. For example, sometimes I do something
for free, that I could charge for. In one case, I volunteered my
time as a computer consultant to the local opera company, because
I wanted to help that company; I could have charged for my services
but I did not. In another case I tried to help someone who is in the
midst of personal problems; this person tried to give me a rolex for
my efforts, which I refused. I did what I did because someone needed
help, not because I wanted their posessions. 

I will agree though, that money is power.

>Why do many people go to college? They jump through ever more
>outrageous hoops in order to get a degree, which may then open doors
>of career advancement and large salaries. Some_Degrees = Power.

But many people go to college for degrees that will not bring them
substantial money. How do they fit into your equation?

>Why do many people choose careers over jobs? A career has advancement
>up the corporate ladder. Career = Power.

I did not choose my career because I wanted to make my way up a
corporate ladder. 

>Why do Witches in covens aspire to be high priest(esses)? 
>Position in the Coven = Power. Perceived Proximity to Deity = Power.

I am a high priest. The reason I am a high priest is because it puts
me in a position to serve others in my coven. Is this pursuit of
power? 

I don't believe that there is a heirarchy where any person is any
closer to diety than any other. Your second argument fails, as
far as I am concerned.

>Why do Witches and other magical-seeking pagans learn magic? Here is a
>dictionary definition of magic: (Webster's Seventh New Collegiate)

>   "1a: the use of means (as charms, spells) believed to have
>   supernatural POWER over natural forces. b: magic rites or incantations.
>   2a: an extraordinary POWER or influence seemingly from a supernatural
>   source. b: something that seems to cast a spell: Enchantment", etc...

>I used CAPS for emphasis. Witches and other magic users seek power
>over people, places, and things. Most pagans dabble in the esoteric
>arts. The claim that pagans do not seek power is ludicrous. 
>Magic = Power.

However, you have to ask what is the motivation for joining a
magically based religion. Is it so that one can use magic for power?
Is it for another reason, and the magic is incidental? 

I can tell you that in my case, the second applys.

>The established religions of so-called satanism, that I have encountered, 
>do NOT sacrifice babies, virgin daughters: no humans whatsoever. [see *]
>If you discover self-styled sickos ritually murdering a human being
>or mutilating your neighbor's kitty cat, then dial 9-1-1. 

I most certainly will.

>I have noticed a trend of pagan finger-pointing, though. 
>"We're innocent. We don't do that. But THOSE people do. Persecute THEM
>instead of us. Have a Nice Day :)" The Power of Redirection... 

I don't want to have anyone persecuted. However I also do not want to
be associated with a group that has a philosophy I disagree with.
I never say that "THOSE people do", especially when I am dealing with
the press. I will say that I don't really know much about those people,
so I'm the wrong person to ask; go ask them.

>As for the "we seek to harm none" notion, anyone who has been a pagan 
>long enough has either witnessed, participated in, or been the 
>victim of a Witch War.    Control = Power.

Sorry to say that human beings have failings, and we are all human.
Perhaps what is important is how we deal with such petty squabbles.

>My parents taught me a sense of value. The last thing I need is an 
>invasion of the ethics-police. Why do some people seek to impose their 
>morality, their sense of ethics over other people? The answer is 
>indubitably, that they seek POWER!   

Many people do seek power, and in some cases it is good to seek power.
I consider it good to become self-empowered in regards to ones own
life. I consider it negative in most cases to seek power over others.
The exceptions I would consider valid are in dealing with those who
are incapable of making the decisions for themselves that are necessary
for them to exist in our society; the training of children is a good
example.

>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
>Thorfinn Einarsson    *    ALU ALU ALU    *    Odhinn er Alfadhir!
>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Eric
Newsgroups: alt.pagan