From: jamalin@newton.ccs.tuns.ca (Nadeem Jamali)
Subject: Re: Elite ..... My Foot!
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1993 21:40:45 GMT
Organization: Technical University of Nova Scotia, Halifax, N.S.
Keywords: Hang loose on the Caboose !

In article <1ioitpINNp4h@shelley.u.washington.edu> shamshoo@shelley.u.washington.edu (Shams Hasan) writes:

... (rest of previous e-mails deleted)

>>
>>-- 
>>Nadeem Jamali                                     jamalin@newton.ccs.tuns.ca
>>						 
>>School of Computer Science			  
>>Technical University of Nova Scotia		  (902)420-7527  
>
>
>Dear Nadeem Jamali,
>
>You and Mansoor seem to be playing, hide and seek. You are hiding and Mansoor
>seems to be seeking after whatever you are trying to hide.

That's an unfair and a fairly biased assessment. If Mansoor chooses to be fair,
I'm quite certain even he'll attest this. I'm not hiding from anyone. I did
say everything I had to on the previous topic. No one responded for a fairly
long time. Why? And why did Mansoor came up with a reply suddenly? And it's not
the first time he's done that. And did you say I'm playing some game? When
one speaks on a public forum, one expects that others who are aware of the truth
will support the one who's telling the truth. Here, since most people share 
their interests because they belong to the same community, no one speaks for
the truth. In the posting that Mansoor has recently replied to, don't you 
and others know that I had written plain simple truth? What do you expect me
to do when he denies it and no one says anything? Had he replied a couple
of days or so after I wrote it, I might just have been in a mood to argue...
no more, I'm afraid...

>
>Corruption comes from the top. If you donot believe in that, than you donot
>understand the leadership quality of any kind that comes with being the
>head/governor/director etc, of this and that.

I understand many things that you wouldn't even know as existent :)

>
>Karachi is in Sindh. Jam of this and Jam of that, as well as others are people
>of very large amounts of wealth and influence in Karachi and in other areas of
>Sindh. How they make their wealth is still something of a mystery. 
>

I have already mentioned that "Jam of this and Jam of that" is from an extremely
rich family. Jam Sadiq Ali and his son are corrupt.. I have already agreed with
that. The nature of their corruption is slightly different. These people's 
weakness is women and influence. Money is not something I would expect them to
be after.

>Even if that wealth is coming down from generations, there has to be some sort
>of taxation, and accountability made known to the general public.  That is what
>is lacking and no amount of hide and seek can accomplish that.

They must be paying wealth tax... at least in the same way as industrialists
are paying (many of whom BTW happen to be richer than them today).

>
>Secondly, how many of these old money millionaires have educated the population
>of Sindh, that includes Karachi, via schools, training centers, parks, 
>recreation facilities, etc, etc, etc, all the parts that make a developed
>and progressive society.

I have already answered this question in one of my postings in response to
Mansoor Khan. Expecting corrupt people to do good is absurd to say the least.

>
>When the masses living in Liaqatabad, Lyari, Nazimabad, and other middle and
>lower middle class areas donot get their voices heard, their representatives
>given any authority in using Taxation and other revenue from Karachites,
>their cars, motorcycles searched and stopped indiscriminantly by Police, and
>they see the Jams of this and Jam of that partying obscenely in their
>city castles and riding around in Pajeros with armed bodygaurds all over the
>place, they get a little bit irritated.
>

What about the masses in rural Sindh who do not have facilities like power
and natural gas and running water because all resources are diverted towards
Karachi. Believe it or not, my own village did not have power till two years
ago. My nephews and nieces used to read under lanterns. They and many other
villages got electricity only after Zia died and Benazir got power. 

You're talking about cars, motorcycles searched... don't you agree that there
will be more crime if they are not searched for arms and ammunition? That's
why I say that Karachiites don't have a civic sense. They complain about
crime, but they don't want people to be searched. And why do you forget about
those thousands of poor villagers who were killed by Zia regime for no reason.

>Maybe you should go, like I did five years ago, and stay around these areas
>and talk to the people who are in a no-win situation and know it too. Or
>to a small basti in Sindh, and live like they live and not as a king, like I
>witnessed when my good Vadera friend took me with beer/guns in the Pajero to
>show off his Ghulaams/Slaves and gardens of this and that.
>

Sir, you're a Pakistani American... or is it American Pakistani? I'm a plain
old Paki. I was in Pakistan when you visited. I was there till August 1990. I
visited recently again. I have lived in my village at least for a few
of my summer vacations... and you wouldn't know how summer is in Sanghar..
specially when you don't have electricity and women have to cook out in the
open. 

I'm against vadera's and stuff myself. How come you share the feeling. MQM
never attacked any vadera's. The people they killed were poor villagers
living in the outskirts of Karachi.... or the small number of middle class
Sindhis who've struggled hard to get out of the vicious cycle of rural life
and are the only force against the vaderas. Which regime do you believe was more
dominated by vaderas in Sindh? Zia's or Benazir's? Nawaz Sharif's or Benazir's?
In fact it is in the interest of Karachi that there be vaderas representing
Sindh. Since they do not have public support, they are completely under the
bureaucracy's control... whose constitution I don't know whether you want me
to repeat.

And BTW, try visiting Pakistan again. You might be surprised to know that 
all big vadera's were defeated by PPP in 1988. But then you can say that
PPP consisted of class-less people... what can I say. You don't want rich
people because they are rich... you don't want poor people because they
are poor.. hence classless... who cares what you want. If the people decide
they want someone, shouldn't they have a right to choose that? Did anyone
stop Karachiites from electing terrorists and murderers?

Vadera problem is not so bad today. Things have improved quite a lot. Thanks
to Zia.. he helped expose most of them. You should meet people like Jatoi and
you'll find out how much they are scared of their farmers. Specially during
the '88 election campaign, people threw cow-dung on GM Jatoi and his brothers'
faces. You have to know how his own farmers used his transportation to reach
the polling stations, stayed overnight on his money and finally voted for PPP.

>Please draw some inference from the reality, you guys, rather than living in
>the past and blaming this and that.
>

:) :) you amuse me Shams... are you really in a position to say that someone
else is living in the past??

>
>Best Regards,
>Shams Hasan.
>

regards

Nadeem

-- 
Nadeem Jamali                                     jamalin@newton.ccs.tuns.ca
						 
School of Computer Science			  
Technical University of Nova Scotia		  (902)420-7527  
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan,soc.culture.indian,soc.culture.bangladesh