From: "Paul Hager" <hagerp@moose.cs.indiana.edu>
Subject: JDs (was Re: Clinton in _Rolling Stone_ ...)
Organization: Computer Science, Indiana University
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 00:12:51 -0500

greeny@top.cis.syr.edu (J. S. Greenfield) writes:

>In article <1992Sep2.234829.25589@news.cs.indiana.edu> hagerp@moose.cs.indiana.edu (Paul Hager) writes:

>>>Clinton: I don't have the same view of the crime issues as you have. I
>>>came here from across the river in North Little Rock, talking to a
>>>couple hundred kids -- and their parents -- who participated in a
>>>midnight basketball league the mayor started and we helped him with.
>>>It's one of the reasons we've had a significant decline in crime on
>>>that side of the river this summer as compared with last.
>>
>>What???  Two hundred kids are the source of the crime problem?  This
>>is the looniest thing I've ever heard in my life.  Isn't that the
>>only conclusion one can draw from this statement, that the decline
>>in crime came about because 200 kids started playing night little
>>league?

>You can't draw the conclusion that they are the source of all crime--but
>there is much truth in the old proverb about idle hands.

I'm just going by what Clinton said.  Clinton only mentioned 200 kids.
Clinton may have mispoken but, as reported, his statement made no sense.

>This is the basic idea behind programs like the Boy's Club, etc.

>The fact of the matter is that programs like that do work, in the short term,
>to reduce some crime (and midnight basketball leagues have apparently been
>successful in a number of places) and, perhaps, have long-term effects
>also.

Of course, there is a much larger issue here that I think most of us
can agree on: the social disorganization and poverty in certain
inner city areas correlates very strongly with the existence of
youth gangs.  Back when I was a kid, people wrung their hands and
decried gangs of "JDs" -- i.e., Juvenile Delinquents.  Gangs are
nothing new -- they have been a feature of urban life in the US
throughout the 20th Century.

>>>Almost all of them I was talking are black almost all of them are
>>>middle- or low-income people. Crime's a real big deal to them. They
>>>feel very threatened, and they were very pleased about this 'cause
>>>they thought it gave their kids a chance to do something good and to
>>>be part of something good.
>>
>>So 200 kids and their parents felt good and crime miraculously fell.
>>Even if there was some kind of a decline, there can't be any correlation
>>at all.

>This does not particularly follow. 

Perhaps you can fault me for being nitpicky, but it was Clinton who
made the claim.

>The "feel good" is related to the
>presumed long-term effect of such programs.  The Boys' Club hopes that
>by funneling kids' energy into constructive things, there will be a long
>term benefit for those kids (and society).

Breaking the subculture of youth gangs and substituting 
something else in its place has been the prescription for several
generations now.  In principle, there is nothing wrong with this.
The biggest problem I have with Clinton -- and this applies to other
drug warriors who point to gangs as the justification for the war --
is that he obviously has only the most superficial kind of knowledge
of the problem.  Drugs are functionally irrelevant to the problem of
youth gangs.  The flucuations in drug use over the past 80 years have,
so far as I know, not been tracked by gang membership or gang activity.
Drug use is a symptom and not a cause.

>But there is also a definite short-term effect, due to the fact that some of
>those kids might, otherwise, get involved in destructive things.

Indeed.  I'm not denigrating such programs -- and I'd probably endorse
chess clubs and knitting circles, too.  However, the solution to the
problem of violent youth gangs goes far beyond such palliatives and
certainly doesn't include continued drug prohibition -- which is part
of the context in the excerpt from the Clinton interview.

As I posted elsewhere, Clinton, unlike Bush, really does have a
heart-felt committment to social justice and social equity.  However,
he has this authoritarian streak that guarantees that he will
perpetuate the failed policies of the past.  Clinton is a tinkerer;
he is a creature of the system and unable to see beyond it.
-- 
paul hager		hagerp@moose.cs.indiana.edu

"I would give the Devil benefit of the law for my own safety's sake."
                       --from _A_Man_for_All_Seasons_ by Robert Bolt
Newsgroups: alt.drugs