From: sog@craycos.com (Steve Gombosi)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Well, well... (last)
Date: 9 Jan 93 06:27:07 GMT
Organization: Cray Computer Corporation

In article <76265@apple.apple.COM> mikel@Apple.COM (Mikel Evins) writes:
>In article <1993Jan8.121745.7150@sei.cmu.edu> psc@sei.cmu.edu (Peter Capell) writes:
>>>08-Jan-93 schan@birch.srg.af.mil (Stephen Chan x4485)	Re: Well, well, well...
>>>> This one just whooshed by me...what are we talking about?

I'm not sure Peter's talking *about* anything.

>>My comment here was that Christianity (the west) has no analogous activity to
>>eastern meditation to derive meaning.  It is an essential distinction.  

It is also a false one. You have absolutely no idea what you're talking
about - perhaps your lack of knowledge has some relation to your devaluation
of it.


>>It
>>could not possibly "sound familiar" that people might spend hours meditating
>>on a single Bible phrase for example, because it doesn't happen at all in the
>>same way.  There is no analogous activity.

Hmm...ever seen a rosary? Do you actually *know* anything about Christian
monasticism? Know anything about Chasidic Judaism? If you've studied Persian,
you *must* know something about Sufism.

Look, your knowledge of the Judeo-/Christo-/Islamic religious tradition may 
be limited to TV evangelists, but that doesn't mean that's all there is.
There's a long-standing meditative/mystic tradition, as well.

><comments about Campbell and the Eastern origins of Christianity 
>as contrasted with>, for example, the religious thought of the
>Hellenic Greeks, which had a different character (and which 
>nevertheless influenced the development of Christianity).

But even in Greece there were the Dionysian and Eleusinian cults.
No single culture can claim a monopoly on the ecstatic experience.

>>>Nope. I'll cite a whole bunch of "Masters" if you wish.
>>
>>By all means, cite a bunch of eastern masters who advocate book learning as
>>being essential to enlightment.  Further, document that this is the real
>>character of eastern thinking on the subject of enlightenment.  

Who decides what "the real character of eastern thinking" is? Are you claiming
that the whole "East", whatever that is, is in some kind of agreement about
this? 

>>I believe that
>>you will find that most eastern religions find that book knowledge is an
>>option for dialectical scholars of religion--quite a separate concern from
>>true enlightenment.

Hardly remarkable considering that most of those religions came from cultures
where the vast majority of the populace was illiterate and books were
a rare and expensive luxury. When only 
"dialectical scholars of religion" can read, it's not too surprising that
"book knowledge is an option" for them alone. I'd suggest that the issue isn't
so much the denigration of books as the absence of schools and printing presses.

>Again, I think you are mistaken. Gongfuzi (K'ung fu tze, or Confucius)
>held that the enlightened man is a scholarly man. The whole edifice
>of jnana yoga rests upon that proposition that scholarship and
>logic is a valid path to enlightenment. Theravada and Vajrayana
>Buddhism take  positive attitude toward scholarship; ...
>
>>>The west has all kinds of relaxation and exercise programs too. How is
>>>this this relevant?
>>
>>First off, if you're talking about any program post the 1960's, they are
>>virtually *all* derived from eastern practices.  If you are talking about the
>>hypnosis thread derived from Freudian or Jungian folks, okay, but these are
>>not really intended for enlightenment or increase in knowledge.  

><snip> the Sufi (Islamic) tradition, and the Trappist and
>Franciscan (Christian) traditions. <snip> Meister Eckhardt and
><snip> Spinoza... pre-Christian European healing
>traditions as well.

I don't think that Jesuit meditation practices owe much to Jung. I don't
think that Catholic mystics who meditate on the Sacred Heart or Jewish
Kabbalists who seek enlightenment through contemplation of the Sephiroth
derive their "program" from Freud, either. Peter, you're at least as ignorant
and bigoted as those you criticize. Before you set up any more straw men,
I'd suggest you pay a visit to the Emerald City yourself.

Sheesh!

Steve