From: colten@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (marc.colten)
Subject: Re: ARF's racist remark was:Re: Treason vs. Espionage
Followup-To: talk.politics.misc
Summary: African-Americans and American Culture
Organization: AT&T
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 20:42:51 GMT

In article <1992Dec16.172001.18751@oracle.us.oracle.com>, mfriedma@uucp (Michael Friedman) writes:
> You know, I am stunned.  We actually have people arguing with ARF who
> are stupider than he is.  Astonishing.
> 
> In article <1992Dec15.101822.27928@Princeton.EDU> niepornt@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (David Marc Nieporent) writes:
> >In <BzA2vG.KyI@ddsw1.mcs.com> arf@ddsw1.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling) writes:
> >>In <1g4a63INNbi6@agate.berkeley.edu> dan@jonas.berkeley.edu (dan graves) says:
> 
> >>>|>  >You agree that non-whites are incapable of sustaining our 
> >>>|>  civilization?  That's pretty raw even for you, Jack.
> 
> >>>|>  I was agreeing with sentiment.  I did not choose the words.  
> >>>|>  It is someone elses' quote.
> 
> >>>|>  I would have used the culture instead of civilization.
> 
> >>>|>  Clearly when a whole group of Aamericans desides to call 
> >>>|>  themselves African-Americans, they are implying a desire to 
> >>>|>  promote a different culture.
> 
> >>>This comment is racist.  Clearly Schmidling thinks
> >>>that African Americans have less right to their identity
> >>>than Italian Americans or Irish Americans or 
> >>>(insert Caucasian identity) Americans.
> 
> Let's note that Dan seems to be totally unable to read what Arf has
> said.  Arf is quite reasonable on this point, for once.  Unlike other
> groups in America which are steadily moving towards assimmilation, a
> large fraction of blacks seem to be actively seeking to move further
> away from the common culture.  I can't think of any other group that
> does that.
> 

No other group has had to.  What is interesting is that for many
generations, black americans were the MOST assimilated.  most
of the rest of us had some kind of history to look back upon.
I'm Jewish and generally skip the entire European experience and
identify with my Jewishness.  Other people have done that to
me too, (check out the kind of phrase "Russians and Jews" for
example).  Black americans were searching for a history, and
that tends to stand out from the rest of us, for whom our
history is assumed.

> >>>I've got news for you, Schmidling, you hateful racist
> >>>bastard.  African Americans have been here longer than most groups
> >>>and have made more of a contribution to American culture
> >>>than any other ethnic group i can think of.
> 
> What about Whites/European Americans?
> 

English and Dutch maybe and some Spanish Jews, but the rest of
us mostly came later.  I know some people whose families were
here in the 1600's.  most of the others, however, were late 19th
and early 20th century immigrants.

> >>>They can call themselves anything they like and i for 
> >>>one will respect their contribution to MY culture.
> 
> What is your culture?  It wouldn't happen to be the American Culture,
> would it?  So in that case, who is "they"?  After all, if "they" are
> part of the American Culture then how can they be contributing new and
> extraneous elements to it?
> 

This is a good question.  What is "American Culture"?  We can
analyze it and try to assign each element to a particular
group.  This is what African Americans are trying to do.  Remember,
for years there were Italian-American groups and Irish-American,
and German-American - all pushing their own history and heros.
Why is it so frightening when African Americans do it?

> >>>Yes, Schmidling, you filthy racist, African Americans
> >>>are just as American as you are.  
> 
> Maybe as Schmidling, but not as American as I am.  You see, I am not a
> hyphenated American, whether that's European-American or
> Jewish-American or British/Romanian-American.  I'm an American.  Any
> black who considers himself to be an American is as American as I am.
> If he considers himself to be an African-American then he isn't.
> 

Most Americans wear their hyphens on their sleeves.  We announce
it with "O'" or "De" or even "...berg" in our names.  Eventually
"African-American" will be more or less assumed.  It will be
inaccurate in some cases, but then other mistakes are made when
we assume someone history from their name or color, but no harm
done.

> >>I don't know where to begin editing this rubbish so I left in in tact.
> 
> >>All I said was the African Americans are (by definition) promoting African
> >>culture.  Everything you said in response is nothing by hateful rubbish
> >>because you can't think of anything objective to say about what is 
> >>a given and are to stupid to keep your mouth shut.
> 
> >This was a dumb rebuttal to Schmidling's idiotic post.  Schmidling, your
> >post was stupid because it made no sense.  (1) There is no such thing as
> >"African culture."  Any more than there is such a thing as "European
> >culture."  
> 
> I agree.  Interestingly enough, many American blacks do not.  
> 

The "African Culture" idea is indeed incorrect.  I don't see the
harm though in simply accepting it.  My idea of my "Jewish Culture"
may be just as incorrect but harms no one.  For a black american
to call themselves an "African American" is as vague as my calling
myself a "European American".  It is accurate but covers more than
a dozen countries with differenct languages and cultures and history.
It's vague and incorrect, but why say someone is "not as good an
American" as you for it.

> >(2) African-American's are not by definition promoting
> >African culture at all. 
> 
> Then why are they suddenly hyphenating themselves instead of calling
> themselves Americans?
> 

Then again, why not?  Why worry about it.  I've known many
hyphenated americans and they are harming no one.

> >(3) When you say they are "promoting a
> >different culture," what do you mean?  Different than what?  Different
> >than non-African-Americans?  Sure.  But Italian-Americans promote a
> >different culture than non-Italian-Americans, and you never seem to be
> >complaining that Italian-Americans can't sustain "our" civilization.
> 
> Well this plain isn't true.  Do you know any Italian Americans?  After
> a couple of generations they act just like everyone else, except for a
> deplorable tendency to have names like Luigi, Vinny, and Guido.  If
> you ask them what they are they say "American".  If you ask them their
> origin/ethnic group they say Italian.  The only time they use the
> word "Italian-American" is in a discussion like this.
> -- 

I've known many Italian Americans - complete with clubs and storefronts
and all.  As for the "deplorable tendancy" to have names like
Luigi,I think the deplorable tendancy is to assume there are American
and non-American names.  By definitiion, any name held by an
American is an American name - including Hans, Zoltan, Luigi,
Shlomo, Chang and any you can think of.  What's the harm in that
kind of diversity?


marc colten

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