From: kgatling@rodan.acs.syr.edu (Keith E Gatling)
Subject: Re: Circumcision etc.
Organization: Syracuse University, Syracuse, NY
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 92 09:34:48 EST

Hmm...very interesting...in one post I received privately a writer claims
that 2 out of 1000 circs ending in mutilation or death is *not* a small
number (although we never did establish what proportion of that two
consisted of deaths or for that matter what proportion of the mutilations
were nothing more than a wee little nick that healed later), and then in a
recent article someone else pointed out that the rates for penile cancer
were extremely small...only about 1 per 600.  If my math is correct, that
works out to about 1.67 per 1000...reasonably close to the 2 per 1000
"failure rate" for circs for it to pretty much be a wash.

Oh, and speaking of mutilation, another private poster (wiser than I, since
he has long since given up on trying to carry on a rational discussion with
the rest of you who insist on trying to convince those of us who are either
on the fence or who have decided to circumcise *our* kids that it's just
plain wrong, wrong, wrong), pointed out that the treatment for penile cancer
is penile amputation...talk about mutilation!

As another writer mentioned, it seems that circs are an issue over which the
medical community regularly flip flops as it finds information each weeks
which may change its point of view on the procedure.  This seems to indicate
to me that it's not the clear issue of right or wrong that the anti-circs
claim it is (anyone notice that the pro-choice circ crowd isn't yelling
loudly "CUT, CUT, CUT!"?), and that it's a 50/50 decision made in good
faith.  With so many members of the medical establishment being on the fence
about this, once again, I think I'll err on the side of circumcision.

And to those who bring up the issue of making choices for someone who has no
say in the process, let me ask a few questions based on one simple premise;
just how far do you want to carry this?  Are you also against infant
baptisms, choosing names for the kids, buying baby food, getting
vaccinations done, sending them to school, and so forth, because the kid had
no choice in the matter?  Or maybe even because of some implied risk?  What
is the risk that a kid sent to school will be eventually beaten up by
someone?  Is this reason enough to keep the kid home under your watchful
eye.  If you're looking for a risk free life, you've sure picked the wrong
universe.

And as another private poster wrote, how many of you antis are writing from
a position of ivory tower ignorance?  Sure, theoretically it's very easy to
take care of an uncirced penis, but real life is often different from
theory, and there are many people out there who just don't do it, and who
may end up suffering as a result.  Okay, so you may reply that it's mostly
people with poor hygiene habits and in certain educational/economic groups
who has this problem.  So then would you like to enact a law saying that
people who are well off and educated enough to have Internet access should
not have their sons circumcised?

Come on people, it's a wash.  We've got statistics that regularly conflict
with each other on the one hand, and then we've got two distinct groups of
people discussing the whole issue...one which doesn't really care what you
do with *your* kid as long as you allow them to make their personal choice
(we'll call this the pro-choice camp), and another extremely vehemently
against circs (Gee, I wonder if their motto is, "It's a foreskin, not a
choice"?); and it seems to me that the only ones getting really worked up
about this are the antis...and we're not even talking about lopping the
whole penis off, which *I* would consider a cruel mutilation.

And since I mentioned the "pro-choice" and "anti-circ" camps, at the risk of
opening up a whole new Pandora's box, I wonder what percentage of anti-circs
are pro-choice on abortion and vice versa.  The stats on that could be
rather ironic.

Well, enough for now.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* Keith E Gatling                                  kgatling@mailbox.syr.edu *
*          Opinions?  I've got plenty of them.  Just ask my wife!           *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Newsgroups: misc.kids