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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Mon, 17 Aug 1992 16:53:29 -0500
From:         "j.b. cormier" <CORJB@RHODES.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Something more on Revelation

I can't help but ask after reading this:

>Like Brad I know that the Bible is inspired by God because the Catholic
>Church tells me so.

Does this acceptance of what the Catholic Church says also extends
to other things.  My reason is because the Catholic Church once said
that the Earth was the center of the universe and if I have my
science correct did all sorts of horrible things to Copernicus for
his research which was proving contrary.

Even if this statement is exclusive to the scripture, it still holds
insight when you consider that the Catholic Church has changed
even some of its spiritual doctrines over the centuries.  What if
150 years from now, it no longer supports this statement?

Jason

P.S. I hope that I haven't offended anyone.  I am desperately
seeking an understanding of many things and questioning is the only
way I have of ascertaining the truth.
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Sat, 22 Aug 1992 03:30:11 EDT
From:         Marty Helgesen <MNHCC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: This won't win me any friends, but...
              21 Aug 1992 15:24:15 PDT from <aamirtha@HPIOSF.CORP.HP.COM>

Abraham,

You say, "Many a times we are like the wife in the above parable, we
forget God and catch hold of the vehicles God uses for His glory and
for the extension of His kingdom - be it Mary or the cross or Peter."
Yes, and I would add, "or the Bible".  The Bible is the revealed word
of God, written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, but it is
still only a vehicle of God's truth, not God Himself.

Marty Helgesen
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Date:         Fri, 21 Aug 1992 02:35:05 -0500
From:         "Michael S. Muegel" <mmuegel@MOT.COM>
Subject:      Non-Delivery Report for <9208202052.AA22721@motgate.mot.com>
X-To:         CHRISTIA@ASUVM.INRE.ASU.EDU

The Mot.COM major relay, Pobox.Mot.COM, was not able to transfer electronic
mail messages from 3:26 pm to 6:18 pm CDT on Thursday, August 21. An
inspection of the electronic mail system log files shows that a mail
message you sent was not delivered. Your mail message should have been sent
to your local mail manager (ala postmaster) for disposition.

Some important facts on the mail that was undelivered:

   Message-ID:                 <9208202052.AA22721@motgate.mot.com>
   Sender:                     <CHRISTIA@ASUVM.INRE.ASU.EDU>
   Recipient:                  <bradk%isdgsm@RTSG.mot.com>
   Size:                       1900 bytes
   Date of transfer to Pobox:  Aug 20 15:52:59 CST

This message has been generated automatically. If you need further
clarification feel free to contact me directly.

-Mike

--
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Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Fri, 21 Aug 1992 09:56:07 CDT
Reply-To:     bradk%isdgsm@rtsg.mot.com
From:         Brad Kaiser <bradk%isdgsm@RTSG.MOT.COM>
Subject:      re: brad ain't gettin' his mail
X-To:         CHRISTIA%ASUVM.INRE.ASU.EDU@motgate.mot.com

>> Ahem:

>> I've just recieved 10 messages that Brad Kaiser hasn't gotten his mail.

>> I don't think I sent him any.  I know I didn't send him 10.

>> Am I the only person this is happening to?  Am I some kind of official
>> delegate to the network posting convention or what?

>> Grumble, grumble, gripe.  Things is gettin' truly weird.

>> Love INC,
>>          ---Kerry

I hope everybody didn't receive this garbage, but I'm afraid they
probably did.  The problem is caused by the line in the header of every
CHRISTIA message which says:

  Reply-To: Practical Christian Life <CHRISTIA@ASUVM.INRE.ASU.EDU>

Which causes (I think) all bounce reports to be sent to every member
of the list.  A line like

  Errors-To: somebody_else@asuvm.inre.asu.edu

in the header would fix the problem.  If my diagnosis is correct,
can that line be added?

I apologize for the net.doodoo; I should have set nomail last night,
but forgot that part of our mail system was going to be down for
maintenance.   (I'm not responsible for it, but I did receive an
announcement of the downtime schedule.)

Again, sorry!

Brad Kaiser
(bradk%isdgsm@rtsg.mot.com)

  "Hatred destroys.  Only love creates."
            -- St. Maximilian Kolbe, shortly before his arrest and
               martyrdom at the hands of the Nazis.
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Fri, 14 Aug 1992 16:51:59 -0600
From:         Vernon Galloway <gallowav@CC.GETTYSBURG.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Is the Bible Absolute Truth?

In Message Fri, 14 Aug 1992 14:30:23 -0600, MARCHIBOLD@MSCD.BITNET writes:

>Is it true as I have heard that in the early part of this century
>archeologists believed that the people such as the Philistines and
>others were just Bible stories and never really existed.
>I heard this a number of years ago and wondered if it is true.
>
>Molly Archibold

Molly, see the message I posted just before reading yours.  Dr Albright in
one of the lectures I attended made the specific claim that the Hittites
were unknown to history and archaeology, except for the Biblical references,
until some digging was done at sites suggested by the Bible.  Then it was
discovered that these people had an extensive culture, and if I remember
correctly, were among the first people to use iron.

Vernon


Vernon Galloway
Gettysburg College
MicroComputer Technician
gallowav@gettysburg.edu
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Thu, 20 Aug 1992 10:28:42 EDT
From:         "Fritz Block, LCF Summer President" <BD32@LAFAYACS.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Family values

> > giving parents the right to choose between available public and private
> > schools (with tax credits for choosing the latter)
>
> I've seen some details of proposed plans to do this, and it looks to me like
> it's going to cost WAY too much money -- that is, I am not certain that this
> is something the government can actually do.  One current plan being promoted
> for testing will cost $40 million -- but there isn't any hard data on how much
> less the neighboring public schools will require.  If the savings isn't as big
> as the cost -- if the plan turns out to be _less_ efficient than the system we
> have now -- then it won't survive for long.

The main goal of this idea is to give parents the choice between public
and private schools by giving them a partial tax credit to help pay
tuition for their children's private education if they so choose.  They
would still help pay for public schooling while their children attend
private schools, but less wealthy families would have a better shot at
affording private schooling.  Of course, the government can't sacrifice
the public school system to accomplish this, but the "efficiency" of no
tax credits vs. partial tax credits isn't the issue here.

> > banning the distribution of condoms in public schools
>
> I agree that distributing condoms "feels" wrong, but are there any statistics
> about how is has affected incidence and frequency of sex?  Without them, there
> is no way to know whether this will do anything or not.

This isn't in one of my fields of expertise (as if I have any!) -- do
you know of any stats, Michael Kline or anybody else?  But distributing
condoms does send the message of condoning promiscuity, and if there
aren't any stats saying that it has _cut down_ the indicidence and
frequency of sex, then it's legitimate to call for an end to this
practice.

[...]

> Example: the Republican Party Platform claims that Democrats are against
> family values.  When asked exactly what he meant by "family values", George
> Bush gave a list that included "reading to kids" -- as if Bill Clinton opposes
> reading to kids.  Sheesh.  (Is it too late to vote for Perot?)

Gimme Tsongas.


*++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++*
* Fritz Block    "Love is not a ballad on the top ten chart            *
* bd32@lafayacs   Love is not a virus from cupid's dart                *
* 215-250-8031    Love is not a promise that you tear apart            *
* Lafayette Col.  Love is a commitment heart to heart" -- Larry Norman *
*++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++*
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Thu, 20 Aug 1992 17:01:26 EDT
From:         Marty Helgesen <MNHCC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: revelation

Zane,

I looked in _ A Catholic Dictionary _ edited by Donald Attwater but there
was no concise definition of public revelation.  However, the "Revelation,
Private" began, "A revelation given by God to an individual for his own
benefit or for the benefit of other individuals or a class of persons,
as opposed to the universal revelation for all men given to Israel and
the Apostles."  That last clause distinguishes private revelation
from public revelation, so we can say that public revelation is the
universal revelation for all men given to Israel and the Apostles.

Incidentally the discussion of private revelation included a statement
by Pope Benedict XIV (1740-1758):  "Even though many of these revelations
have been approved, we cannot and we ought not to give them the assent
of divine faith, but only that of human faith, according to the dictates
of prudence whenever these dictates enable us to decide that they are
probable and worthy of pious credence."

Marty Helgesen
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Tue, 18 Aug 1992 14:37:00 EST
From:         "Lauren H. Arango" <LHARANGO@OWUCOMCN.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: homosexuality

Angela asks,

>My question is, have you (or anyone on here that is
>denouncing homosexuality as a sin) actually met (knowingly) a gay person?
>Have you spent time with that person?  What about a group of gay people?

For a while, my very closest friend was a gay person (he has since moved
away, but is still gay).  I love him dearly and still love him.  He is
a kind, generous, and wonderful human being.

However, I also believe that the Bible is clear about homosexual activity
being a sin (I don't believe it's a sin to *be* homosexual; only to
practice homosexuality).

Do I believe my friend is sinning when he engages in sex with another man?
Yes.  Do I love my friend?  Yes.  They are two separate issues.  Do I
love other sinners?  Of course!  We are all sinners, including *all* those
whom I love.
                                        God's peace,
                                        Lauren
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Thu, 13 Aug 1992 11:00:27 -0700
From:         MARK DRAKE <DRAKE@ASUCHM.LA.ASU.EDU>
Subject:      what is respect
X-To:         CHRISTIA@ASUVM.INRE.ASU.EDU

	Thanks for the clarification Jesse.

>By the way, when I use the word, "respect" I mean "to treat fairly and kindly."

>Jesse Carnes

	I was hoping this would come through soon.  A definition of respect.
Notice, it is possible to treat a belief held by someone fairly and kindly,
yet make it clear that you believe it is wrong.  ===> respecting a belief.

Most of us conservative christians who talk about respecting other beliefs
DO NOT MEAN accepting it as equally valid in any way.  It's validity (I don't
like using this word but can't think of another) depends first on its
conformity to scripture. (If it is on a matter scripture doesn't speak on, then
I would use the normal "tools" used to determine whether you believe something
or not.)

Mark
Drake@asuchm.la.asu.edu
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Sat, 22 Aug 1992 10:08:06 EST
From:         Kerry Stephenson <KSTE@PURCCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Jesus ... OR Pope?

Marty:

Your post raises 2 questions in my mind.

1) When, historically, did the doctrine of Mary's perpetual virginity
(is there a better term for this?  Sorry.) arise?  Where did it come
from?  Who announced it?

2) When, historically, do we first encounter the mention of "saint"
as it applies in the Catholic sense.  Biblically, it is merely
synonymous with believer, and none of the apostles appear to have used
it as a form of address for themselves.

Thanks.

Love INC,
          ---Kerry
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Organization: Central Michigan University
Date: Friday, 14 Aug 1992 14:07:44 EDT
From: <32WENPW@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Kerry and enthusiasm

I've read over 300 messages on "Christia" since being introduced to it 3 days a
go & have enjoyed & appreciated Kerry's notes!  Don't be silent toooo long, Ker
ry!  There is nothing wrong with enthusiasm -- the Church needs it!
   I noted that Kerry was very enthusiastic about three things:
         1)  Jesus (YES!!)
         2)  computer mail (yes!)
         3)  conservative politics (well, ... 2 out of 3 is not bad...)

sincerely, ken

p.s.  thanks yvette for your help.

(ken w. smith, math dept,
central mich. univ., mt. pleasant, mi. 48859)
From: daphne@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Amy Kruse)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: Drunkard/alcoholic
Date: 18 Aug 92 18:25:38 GMT
Organization: Northwestern University, Evanston Illinois.

In article <JOHN.92Aug17130247@morris.harlqn.co.uk> john@harlqn.co.uk (John Sturdy) writes:
>A question on something related to that:
> what do you think is the proper response to beggars (there are quite
>a few of them in Cambridge) who ask for money purportedly for food,
>when you can be pretty sure they're going to spend it on drink? (There
>is a charitable organization round here distributing some food to
>those in need, particularly the homeless.)
>--
>__John       

John:
As a medical note, people who are alcoholics have a disease, and the only way,
after they have become an alcoholic to survive is to drink, the alcohol is
essential to the function of their livers.  Therefore, when an alcoholic
doesn't get a drink they can go into shock and die.  Their bodies are toxified
and they need medical help.  To deny them a drink is medically wrong.  Now I
am not saying that all of the people you are referring to are alcoholics, I
just wanted to tell you that an alcoholic has an incurable medical condition,
whereas, someone who is drunk and homeless may not.  You may want to keep this
in mind when you approach them in the future.  I too am concerned with the
many people I see on the streets, and I am heartened by your desire to give to
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Posted-From: The MITRE Corporation, Bedford, MA
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Fri, 21 Aug 1992 13:22:37 -0400
From:         ptrei@BISTROMATH.MITRE.ORG
Subject:      Re: Orthodox
X-To:         christia%asuacad.BITNET@cunyvm.cuny.edu
X-cc:         ptrei@mbunix.mitre.org

In a long and fascinating post about an illegitimate Russian Orthodox
group, Mark Gilstrap writes:

>	The Order of Mans (so I hear) no longer exists. In
> Indianapolis they have converted their buildings and restaurant
> (Brother Juniper's) into "orthodox" church grounds. (This is the same
> area where Jim Jones began his ministry in Indy (near the masonic
> mall) - I have been told that the very same buildings used by Jim
> Jones are now theirs).

     Two points:

1.  "Guilt by vague physical proximity" is (to put it mildly) a cheap
shot.  Do you have *any* evidence whatsoever to link these two groups
with the Masons?

     Actually, it's not clear just who you are trying to smear. Are
you saying that the Masons are condemned for having a hall near the
other groups, or that the other groups are clearly evil because they
are within walking distance of a Masonic hall?

     Describing something as "near the masonic mall (sic)" is
hopelessly ambiguous. There are 26 lodges in Indianapolis.  It'd be
difficult NOT to be near one.

    This feeble attempt to link all groups you don't like may lead
people to think that you don't have any *good* arguments.

2.  I realize it's a typo, but "masonic mall" made me smile! :-).

					go with God,

						Peter Trei
						ptrei@Mitre.org

PS: If there really IS a shopping mall in Indy called "Masonic",
PLEASE accept my humble apologies.
						pt
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
From: 75furlong@cuavax.dnet.cua.edu
Subject: Re:How important is the BIBLE?
Organization: The Catholic University of America
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 18:37:26 GMT

In article <45569.gallowav@jupiter.cc.gettysburg.edu>,         Vernon Galloway <gallowav@CC.GETTYSBURG.EDU> writes:
[...]
> I also didn't say anything about what should happen to the rape/incest
> victims or married women pregnant by their husbands.  I said that without
> the majority of their customer base, abortion clinics would do what all
> businesses do when faced with no customers. They would go out of business.
> 
> Vernon

I'm sorry if my point was unclear - let me try again:

I think you are vastly underestimating the number of unwanted pregnancies that
occur either within marriage or because of rape or incest. I have my doubts
about any statistical evidence on this subject because it seems that the 
vast majority of rapes (particularly date rape or marital rape)still go 
unreported. In other words, abortion clinics would hardly go out of business.
Their need would be diminished, true, but there would still be a substantial
number of women going to these clinics.

Another note on this subject - the majority of "abortion clinics" are actually
clinics which provide a wide range of services to women, including gynelogical
exams, pregnancy tests and pre-natal care. Again, the reduction of one portion
of their clientele would not be enough to close down a clinic completely.

Sorry if I soap-boxed unnecessarily before. Hope this clears things up.

-Alison
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Wed, 19 Aug 1992 11:52:54 EDT
From:         carol nemec <YA67@FERRIS.BITNET>
Subject:      encouraging and uplifting

Once again, Bernice has encouraged me and lifted my spirits.
Thanks, Bernice, for bringing us back to where we belong...
the Lord.

And I think all the posts about how to respond to beggars
have been informative.  I come from a small town.  When
approached while visiting Washington D.C. last summer, I
didn't know how to respond.  I would like to help, but...
and I didn't.  Next time I have some alternatives.

Thanks.
Carol Nemec
From: psyrobtw@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (Robert Weiss)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: Netnews and Christia.
Date: 14 Aug 92 03:00:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <BsxxFp.63y@rice.edu>, mueller@owlnet.rice.edu (Ernest Conrad Mueller) writes...
>>Personally, I'd be in favor of closing any automatic gateway between
>>Christia and Netnews.  I have had posts I made here copied to other nets on
>>Netnews without my permission.  Now, that's not illegal, but very
>>unethical.    Most anyone on the uunet can get a gateway so they can
>>subscribe to Christia or any listserved net.
>>
>>Dan Graham
> 
>Frankly, it is just as simple to crosspost from your mailbox to Netnews.
>Closing y'alls news feed would serve no useful purpose except making it
>a lot, lot harder for those of us with news access to handle the
>large volume of Christia mail that would surely get dumped into our poor
>mailboxes.
> 

More than half of the Christia articles come from usenet. Closing the 
news feed would result in a lowering of mail volume to those who are 
subscribed. 

It wouldn't be a dump. It would be a trickle.


 en agape,
 Bob 



ps: and you wouldn't see any 500+ posts to your box either.
[hint hint]
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Fri, 21 Aug 1992 16:05:43 CDT
From:         Tom Brewer <NOTTMB@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: This won't win me any friends, but...
              21 Aug 1992 12:52:47 -0700 from <DRAKE@ASUCHM.LA.ASU.EDU>

Yo Mark:

OK, understood.No flames, no names, no games.

It's Friday afternoon. I'll probably not post anymore till Monday.

I would ask then concerning intercession, just what is it that Mary does
according to your perceptions/understandings as a Protestant looking from
the outside?

Depending on what I see Monday from all the members, I might add some
details from Catholic Dogma. What I really wanted to do, however, was
continue my Defending the Bible with Part 3.

Anyhow, til Monday

Tom Brewer
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Tue, 18 Aug 1992 14:15:14 CDT
From:         Jesse Carnes <NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Is the Bible consistent?

Dear Brad ;

All thinking starts with non-extrinsically provable pre-suppositions.
The Law of Consistency is what prevails in this scenario.
Even "2 + 2 = 4" is proven to be valid ONLY by this law of consistency.
It is the law of Axioms, and we all have our starting presuppositions.

Now, as to Francis Schaeffer, although now deceased since ca. '85, what he
was saying was this : He had been an agnostic through his early years in the
1930's. He had looked at every major religion in existence and had willfully
tried to find epistemological holes in every one of them, including
Christianity.

However, when he crossed Christianity, he found TWO remarkable things which
he never found to be true with anyy other faith system : He found that ONLY
Christianity answered ALL of the epistemological questions and that ONLY
Christianity answered those questions on par with what reality out there
was REALLY indicatingabout those things ... and we are talking about the
REAL questions that matter ... the BIG ones that Plato, et al. asked but
NEVER could satisfactorily answer because they "ran out of epistemological
gasoline." Because their starting presuppositions were faulty, their final
conclusions were necessarily so as well.

Finally, Epistemology asks those questions of, "How do we KNOW what we know
is true and for sure?"




Jesse Carnes
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Fri, 21 Aug 1992 12:23:00 EDT
From:         Richard.Campbell@MVS.UDEL.EDU
Subject:      Re: Lesser of Two Evils
X-To:         CHRISTIA@ASUVM.INRE.ASU.EDU

  John -  It's a fine line.  I feel  the Republicans reflect  Christians
who fight against the current war on Christian belief/expression in the public
arena.  No one had a problem when Lincoln said in one of his speeches "both
sides read the same Bible."  The Supreme Court apparently did not have a
problem with prayers/Bible reading in the schools until 1962.  I think Quayle
and Buchanan are in some ways right on -- there is a cultural war against
Judeo-Christian values.  Should Christians be tyrannized by a cultural elite
intent on filtering out Christian values/expression from the public arena????
                                                       Rich