From: ahmed-shakil@CS.YALE.EDU (Shakil Waiz Ahmed)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.islam
Subject: Re: A Refutation of Bahai view on Crucifixion and Prophethood
Date: 20 Nov 1992 21:34:58 GMT
Organization: MIT Artificial Intelligence Lab
Reply-To: RBNXHS@rohvm1.rohmhaas.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: wookumz.gnu.ai.mit.edu
Originator: gwydion@wookumz.gnu.ai.mit.edu

This is from Dr. Habib Siddiqui (RBNXHS@rohvm1.rohmhaas.com):

Newsgroups: soc.religion.islam
Subject: Re: A Refutation of Bahai view on Crucifixion and Prophethood

        Bismillahir Rahmaneer Raheem
(In the name of Allah, Most Merciful to all - Muslims and non-Muslims,
in this world, and Most Merciful to ONLY Muslims in the Hereafter)

Before I confront the Bahai view on the above subject, as presented by
Babak Mohajerin, let me give a brief account of this religion how it
started in order that Muslims have a fair understanding of what it stands
for and why its understanding of certain explicit verses in the Qur'an
are different than Muslims. (References are also cited for proof.)

In the middle of the 19th century, Mirza Ali Muhammad Shirazi, an Iranian
claimed to be the agent and Bab (door) of the awaited Imam Mahdi. He had
a small following, and the sect came to be known as Babieh (Babism).
After a short while, he claimed himself to be the awaited Imam (1), and
later as a prophet and the bringer of a new religion (2). He was not
emotionally balanced, and as such, later claimed Godhood (3). In Resalah
Lel-Thamarah (Treatise for fruit), he wrote:
                       "Truly I am certainly God: there is no God other
than me. I am unique and single. Truly I am God, there is no God other
than me - the eternal Lord, truly I am that very God and there is no God
other than me who is unique and single. In the name of God who prevents
and who is holy and pure, in praise of You my God, truly I call You and
and all things to witness that You are truly God and there is no God
other than You."

For his contradictory statements he was often times confronted by the
Ulema in Iran. He would usually repent and renounce his claim (4). His
apparent insanity saved his life in more than one occasions (5). His
writings for the illiterate laymen had some effect among the Babis, and
they rioted against the government in some cities. In Isfahan, the rio-
ters were aided by Governor Manucher Khan Gurji, a Russian of Armenian
christian origin (6). Both the British and the Russian embassies were
directly involved in these riots by aiding the Babis(7). Amir Kabir, the
Grand Vizier, realizing that so long as the Bab was alive, his followers
would not stop their rioting, executed him (5).

After Bab's death, the Babis were led by Mirza Yahya Noori, known as
Sobh-e-Azal (the eternal dawn). After an unsuccessful attempt to kill
the Shah, the group was persecuted. Yahya fled to Baghdad, while his
step-brother, Mirza Husein Ali  took shelter in the Russian embassy.
Later, Husein was escorted to Baghdad by the official agents of the
Iranian and Russian governments (8). Mirza Husein Ali sent a tablet to
Russian emperor, praising and praying for him, confirming total servi-
tude and expressing thanks (9). The latter allowed the Babis to const-
ruct a temple in south of Russia in Aeshq-Abad and in its attempt to
crush the Islamic government provided all help to the Babis (22).
In Baghdad, where the Babis became Ottoman subjects, a serious fight
broke out among them as to the issue of leadership of the community,
since many forged the handwriting of Bab, claiming to be his successor.
This and other clashes with Iraqi Muslims brought about a state of
total chaos (10). The Ulema in Iraq wanted the Ottoman government to
deport Babis for creating a total anarchy. Then the Babis were first
moved to Istambul and later to Edirneh. When Mirza Husein claimed to be
the successor of Bab, the Babis got divided into two opposing camps,
each led by one of the step-brothers - Mirza Husein or  Mirza Yahya.
With the unending riots and connections which the Babis held with the
foreign embassies opposed to the Ottoman government, the latter exiled
the followers of Yahya to Cyprus and those of Husein to Aaka in Pales-
tine (11).

When the support for Yahya's followers from the foreign governments
diminished, the group gradually dispersed and vanished. Husein Ali
was always able to keep in touch and get the support from foreign
governments. He claimed the title of "Bahaullah" (the beauty of God)
and described the Bab as the harbinger of his own emergence. Soon he
gained full control over the Babis and founded the creed of Baha'ism.
Like Bab before him, he first claimed prophethood (12) and then Godship
(13). Meanwhile, he was receiving monthly salaries from the Czar (14).

After his death in Aaka, his son, Mirza Abbas (known as Abbas Afandi)
succeeded as leader of the Baha'is and called himself Abdul-Baha (the
servant of Baha). When the communist revolution started asserting itself
in early 20th century, Russian govt. stopped its support for the Bahais.
Facing numerous difficulties, Abdul Baha then approached the British go-
vernment offering to spy for them against the dying Ottoman empire (15).
During the first World War and the aggressive entry of the British Army
into Palestine under the generalship of Allenbee, the Bahais provided
all possible help to the invaders. Learning this, Jamal Pasha, the Com-
mander of the Ottoman forces, wanted to execute Abdul Baha for treason
(16). Lord Balfour, the architect for the infamous Balfour declaration,
the then British Foreign Secretary, ordered Gen. Allenbee to protect the
life of Abdul Baha and his followers (17). Later, in a formal ceremony
knighthood was granted to Abdul-Baha (18). Sir Abbas Afandi's funeral
was personally attended by several British dignitaries, including Sir
Herbert Samuel - the British Chief Commissioner in Palestine, who was
one of the founders of the zionist state of Israel. In accordance with
Abbas's will, the leadership came under his grandson, Showqi Afandi. He,
too, helped realize the goals of British colonialism. And within a short
period Baha'ism spread all over U.K. and its colonies, esp. Uganda (19).
Showqi's contacts with the colonizers helped Bahaism to spread in U.S.A.
and other parts of the world. He revived the intricate network of Free-
masonry at a lower level in the form of Baha'ism, by offering the myth of
"one world religion." (23)

Having no son and nearing his death, Showqi appointed nine Bahais to consti-
tute the Intl. Council of Bahaism and laid the foundation for the Baitul
Adal A'azam (the Universal House of Justice) or the Administrative Orga-
nization of World's Bahais.

After his death, as per his will, Charles Mason Rimi, an American, with
probable CIA connections was appointed the head of Baitul Adal (20).

At present, with the power, money and conspiracies of world colonialism,
Bahaism has fully committed itself to fulfill the dream of the world
devouring powers to acquire global domination.

As I have shown above, Baha'ism from its very inception was helped,
materially and ideologically, by the Russian and British imperialism
for furthering the latters' onslaught in Muslim lands. At a difficult
period in Muslim history, Bahaism collaborated with the zionists for
the establishment of state of Israel (21). Through its connection with
Zionists  it penetrated various governments serving the
interest of the West, a notable example is: Iran under the Shah (23).
This servitude for the western masters, in turn, brought nothing but
misery, poverty, strangulation, stagnation, murder, oppression, tyranny
and whole-sale dependence, to the Muslim nation.

It can also be noticed that Baha'ism, like Ahmedi/Qadianism, started
with its founder's claim to be the awaited Imam Mahdi, which later
developed into the claim for prophethood and divinity. (These groups
do not accept the finality of Muhammad's prophethood.) Muslims, based
on the sahih ahadith of Muhammad (SAWS), do expect the coming of Imam
Mahdi (a descendant of Muhammad (SAWS); he will NOT be a Prophet since
Muhammad (SAWS) is the LAST of the Prophets; he will follow the shariah
of Islam) towards the end of time. He will come at a time when Muslims
will be in a dire need to find a leader to lead them against forces
which will try to extinguish Islam from the earth. He will lead the
Muslims to victory, and establish justice. This expectation manifests
itself into protests against oppression and injustice, and Muslims
alone, unlike any other religious community on earth, have never been
totally succumbed to the evil forces. Colonization was imposed upon
our territories, from Morocco to Indonesia, yet, we never embraced
the very dehumanization as a result of such process, and always resisted
occupation, aggression and exploitation in our territories. The sacri-
fice of Muslims in Algeria, Libya, Indian sub-continent, Indonesia, the
Sudan, Somalia, and more recently in Afghanistan, Palestine and Bosnia
are only a few of the examples in that road to combatting subjugation
and foreign tyranny. Muslims have always tried to negate existing
unjust conditions imposed upon the world by despots, whose weapons were
force, money and deceit. This resistance of Muslims has always dis-
comforted the enemies of Islam. In their attempt to weaken the very
fabric of Islam, these enemies from without have always sought people
from within who would distort the teachings of Islam. These enemies
of Islam know (knew) that if they could create false Mahdis among
Muslims, who instead of calling for jihad commands his followers to be
puppets of the oppressors, then there will be no interruption to their
exploitation. Hopes and dreams of Muslims will give away to despair,
cowardice, lethargy and dependency.

As a result of this conspiracy, in the last century alone, we find
three claimants to be Imam Mahdi, e.g., Ali Muhammad Shirazi, Mirza
Husein Ali and Mirza Golam Ahmed of Qadian, each of whom were suppor-
ted by colonial powers of the West. None of these three, in turn, ever
launched a Jihad movement against the colonizers. Instead, they acted
as stooges for foreign forces, which were hostile to Islam. Baha'i
leaders even spied against the Khilafah and collaborated with Zionists.
It is inconceivable that this deviant group would have as much success
without the moral and financial support from the enemies of Islam.
As a matter of fact, Baha'ism proved to be the colonialists' most
fruitful investment. Through its teachings, it offers a version of
religion which is self-contradictory, deceitful, nonsensical and
ludicrous. Despite its leaders' own servitude to foreign masters,
their irrelevant verbiage about not participating in politics for
nominal Bahais increase the stranglehold of Taghut over the subdued
people, and fulfill the long-term objectives of its financiers.

In their wishful dream about creating a world religion that encompasses
all the various religions (from polytheistic religions like Hinduism to
monotheistic religions like Islam) the leaders of the Baha'i faith over
last several decades have written books which are self-contradictory.
While the Qur'an and ahadith of Muhammad (SAWS) are very clear that all
the scriptures (including the Bible) except the Qur'an has been corrupt-
ed by human hands, the Bahais, in order to curry support from christians,
appear to give the impression that they believe in the pseudepigraphic
books of the New Testament, and that they accept the authenticity of the
gospel accounts about Jesus's crucifixion. We, Muslims, don't have to
butter someone in order to accept our views. The matter concerning Jesus
is settled, as far as we are concerned.

With the death of imperialism, today, neo-colonialism tries hard,
through invented, deviated sects to alter and metamorphose the face of
Islam and eliminate the main elements which comprise the revolutionary
character of this great religion. They scheme and Allah schemes.
Surely, Allah is the Best of the schemers. May Allah keep us on the road
of guidance and save us from falsehood, no matter, under whatever dis-
guise it comes. Ameen.

References:
==========
(1) Nuqtat-ul-Kaaf (The dot of the letter Kaaf), compiled by M.J.
    Kashani and E. Browne, Brill Printing House, Liden, Holland (1910);
    Panj Sha'an (Five Affairs) of Ali Muhammad Shiraji;
    Talkhise Taarikhe Nabil Zarandi, Baha'i Publications, Amri Pub.,
    Tehran (1946);
    Zuhoor-ul-Haq (The appearance of the truth), p. 173.
(2) Nuqtat-ul-Kaaf, p. 151;
    Bayan (Expression) of Muhammad Shirazi, ch. 2, unit 2;
    Makaatib (Letters) of Abbas Afandi, vol. 11, p. 266;
    Al-Mufavedaat (Conversations) of Abbas Afandi, Brill Printing House,
    Liden, Holland (1908), p. 124.
(3) Lowhe Heikal-ul-din (The tablet of the image of religion), the
    supplement to Bayan of Ali Muhammad Shirazi, p. 5;
    Resalah Lel-Thamarah (Treatise for fruit) of Ali Muhammad Shirazi.
(4) Talkhise Taarikhe Nabil Zarandi, p. 138;
    Rowdat-ul-Safe Nasiri of Mirza Reza Quli Khan, vol. 10, p.311, 423;
    Naqtat-ul-Kaaf, p. 133;
    Kashf-ul-Gheta'a (The removal of curtains), pp. 202-204;
    Qarne Badi'a by Showqi Afandi, Amri Pub., vol. 1, p. 423;
    Inshe'ab dar Baha'iat, pp.  70-74.
(5) Talkhise Taarikhe Nabil Zarandi;
    Rowdat-ul-Safe Nasiri;
    Kashf-ul-Gheta'a, p. 204;
    Nasikh-ul-tavaarikh;
    Kavaakeb-ul-durriah (The brilliant stars)
(6) Talkhise Taarikhe Nabil Zarandi, p. 196.
(7) Shooreshe Babian dar Iran (The rebellion of the Babis in Iran),
    Pub. of Soviet Academy, Moscow (1939), vol. 30, pp. 143-159;
    Naqtat-ul-Kaaf, p. 266;
    Inshe'ab dar Baha'iat.
(8) Kavaakeb-ul-durriah.
(9) Mubeen (Clear) of Mirza Husein Ali, p. 76;
    Qarne Badi'a, vol. 11, p. 86.
(10) Inshe'ab dar Bahai'at, p. 83;
     Ma'edahe Aasmaani (Heaven's table), Amri Pub., Tehran;
     Qarne Badi'a, vol. 11, p. 177.
(11) Qarne Badia, vol. 11, pp. 270, 271, 275;
     Kavaakeb-ul-durriah, vol. 1, pp. 389, 381, 383;
     Inshe'ab dar Bahai'at, p. 84.
(12) Maqaalahe Shakhsie Sayyah of Mirza Husein Ali;
     Iqan of Mirza Husein Ali;
     Al-fava'ed (The advantage) of Mirza Abdulfadle Gulpaygani.
(13) Mubeen, pp. 21, 48, 56, 210, 233, 286, 308, 342, 384, 385, 417...;
     Makateeb, p. 225 (Abbas Afandi).
(14) Majmoo'ahe Al-wahee Mubarak, p. 159 (Mirza Husein Ali).
(15) Qarne Badi'a, vol. 11, p. 125; vol. 111, p. 291;
     Inshe'ab dar Bahai'at, p. 121.
(16) Qarne Badi'a, vol. 111, p. 297;
     Inshe'ab dar Bahai'at, p. 121;
     Bayaan-ul-haqaayeq (Expression of realities) of Abul Husein
     Ayati, p. 71.
(17) ibid.
(18) Qarne Badi'a, vol. 111, p. 299;
     Inshe'ab dar Bahai'at, p. 118.
(19) Akhbare Amir, no. 4 (1950).
(20) Inshe'ab dar Bahai'at, pp. 195-203.
(21) Baha'i News, Sept. (1947);
     Akhbaare Amri, (1947), No. 7.
(22) Masaabihe Hedaayat (The lights of guidance) of Azizullah
     Suleimannis, Amri Pub., Tehran (1947).
(23) Baha'ism: a Sect at the Service of Colonialism by Mujtaba Sultani.
======================================================================
 Babak@orac.crissp.qut.edu.au (Babak Mohajerin) writes:
"As you are all aware the Synoptic Gospels along with the Johnian Gospel
clearly indicate that Jesus was crucified by the Jews. Christians have
long used this historical point to launch their biased attack towards the
holiness and historical accuracy of the Holy Qur'an referring to the verse:
'mA qa-ta-lohu wa mA sa-labohu'

Here I attempt to provide a basis to show that there is no conflict between the
crucifixion account in the Bible and the Qur'anic verse in Surih IV, Women,
Verses 152-157. "they did not kill him, neither crucified him, only a
likeness of that was shown to them". I will be very grateful to have your
understandings in this matter (either directly emailed to me or on the Net)

1) The Islamic experts show no general agreement on this account

1.a) TA-BAREE has referred to the substituted one as one of the disciples
by the name of Sarjoutee;
1.b)BAY-ZA-VEE calls him a Jew by the name of Tee-ta-tus. SA'L-ABEE refers to
him as a Jew by the name of Fil-tatus.
1.c) Some other experts-- including IMAM FAKHR-i RA-ZEE -- refer to him as Judas
(the traitor) (Tafseer-i Kabeer, Sharh-i Bey-zavee second part p127,
Sharh-i Tabaree seventh part p10.)

These are the out right leaders in the Schools of Islamic Thought & Theology
and fail to come with a uniform or agreeable account of the event."

Comments:
=========
While the Muslim scholars all agreed as to the fact that Jesus was
NOT CRUCIFIED and that he did NOT DIE and that he was ascended to heaven
ALIVE (without ever dying), there is some disagreement as to the identity
of the person who might have been substituted. This is merely due to the
fact that some of the historians simply passed on the information that
they gathered from some of the early Christians who had accepted Islam.
Tabari, for example, simply narrated everything that was related (heard,
read, saw) to him on a certain matter, without verifying the authentici-
ty of the matter. This, however, does not suggest that he and others had
second thoughts about Jesus's so-called crucifixion. No, when the matter
was explicated in the Qur'an that Jesus neither died nor was crucified,
they accepted this like any other believer.

Remember the messy history of the early christians: how the original
disciples were persecuted by the Romans and ever influential Pauline
christians. During the period between 30 to 70 C.E. there were serious
unrests at different places against the Romans. The original christians
did not escape the wrath of the Roman government, being accused of aiding
the zealots. Those who escaped, fled to territories farther away, sprea-
ding the true gospel of Jesus, which stated categorically that Jesus did
not die on the cross and would return later to bring justice on earth,
and that someone else who was transfigured to look like Jesus was cruci-
fied. Some of these groups have come to be known as Basilidians,
Ebionites, and others. In the 4th century when the Roman government
itself accepted Pauline version of christianity (Trinity as its creed),
those other groups, who did not accept Trinity, were crushed, their books
destroyed/burned. A few escaped by taking refuge in territories out of
reach of the Roman authorities. Some even went to caves, others into the
deserts to the south. (Surah al-Kahf mentions about the people of Raquim
(who were unitarian christians - Muslims following Isa (AWS) as a Prophet
of Allah) who took shelter in the Cave because of fear of persecution.)

These remnants of christians, who refused to worship Jesus as a God or a
son of God, having lost their books, over a period of time developed
their own understanding as to the identity of the person crucified.
Some believed that it was Judas Iscariot, some believed that it was one
of the disciples of Jesus who volunteered, and still there were others
who believed differently. Muslim historians having come across these
christians, most of whom had accepted Islam, related what they learned
from them. So, their disagreement as to the identity of the person
substituted on the cross is a direct result of the particular group of
these former christians that they came across. Islamically, the identity
of the person substituted on the cross is not even important. What is
important is that Jesus did not die (spiritually or physically).

Islam rejects the doctrine of crucifixion and its foundation on blood
sacrifice and vicarious atonement for sins. Islam teaches that the first
sin of Adam (as a result of his forgetfulness) was FORGIVEN by Allah
when he repented; every person is accountable for his own sin; and that
no one can make atonement for the sins of another. We may like to ask
the Trinitarian christians and those who accept the crucifixion of Jesus
the following questions:
1. Does the crucifixion of Jesus as conceived by christian churches
befit the Justice, Mercy, Power and Wisdom of Allah?
2. Is it just for Allah to punish someone for his ancestor's mistake
(or sin)?
3. Is it just for Allah to make someone repent for the sins to which
the repenter is no party?
4. Is it justifiable to believe that Allah, who is Rahman (Merciful to
Muslims and non-Muslims alike in this world) and Raheem (Merciful ONLY
to Muslims in the Hereafter) was unable to forgive Adam (and Eve),
even when he (they) repented? (The Qur'an says that Adam and Eve were
forgiven.)
5. Is it justifiable to think that all humanity, who came before Jesus,
are doomed to go to hell, because they were born with the sin-nature
inherited from their forefather, Adam, and that they missed the atone-
ment paid through the blood of Jesus?
6. Is it possible for a Prophet of God (whom the trinitarians call son
of God) like Jesus to speak to God from the cross the way the gospel
writers mention, in a voice of reproach or at best anxiety, esp. when
he was supposed to be doing a noble act by dying for the sins of all
humanity?
7. Was Allah unable to forgive men's sins without this saddistic, cruel
punishment of crucifixion? Is this the application of His Mercy and
Forgiveness, or the reflection of His Justice?

For Islam such inquiries do not arise and such perplexities are
irrelevant, for the doctrine of Original Sin and its associated creed
of vicarious atonement by blood sacrifice on cross is altogether rejected.
We, however, do see a parallel between christian depiction of Jesus in
the so-called New Testament (thanks to Pauline christians) and mytho-
logical gods in pagan world, esp., Adonis, Horus, Osiris, Apollo, Bakus,
Adamus, Athus, Mithras, and others. Is it logical to assume that the
Pauline church adopted this pagan myth to sanctify the role of Jesus in
order to facilitate the process of proselytizing a goyim people whose
culture was ripe with such heathen, mythological fables? The answer
seems to be obviously yes.

Babak Mohajerin writes:
" On the other hand there are other scholars who have pictured the event
in accordance with the Bible:

2.a) IBN VAD'E' AL-YA'GHOUBEE has narrated the story in accordance with the
synoptic Gospels.
2.b) FAYZ KASHANee interprets the entire account by indicating that although
the physical part of the Jesus was crucified but His spiritual part remained
unharmed and was not killed."

Comment:
========
The above names don't sound familiar. Can you refer to the books they
had written and where the above mentioned information is provided?
If you say that these above named persons BELIEVED in the so-called
crucifixion of Jesus, in contrast to clear verses in the Qur'an, then
I shall not be surprised if they were not Muslims (an Arabic or Persian
- sounding name does not necessarily imply that the person is a Muslim).
But before being judgemental on the issue, we need to know exactly what
these persons had written. Narrating a story as to what the christians
believe on the issue does not imply that these persons had BELIEVED that
Jesus was truly crucified or died (physical and/or spiritual).


Babak Mohajerin writes:
"  Not only the literal interpretation of 4/155
  finds no support in any other
part of the Qur'an, but there are clear versus
indicating the death of everybody
in general (without exception) and that of Jesus
in particular, that is Jesus
also died:

{All the Qur'anic translations are from "The Koran", translated by N.J.
Dawood, Penguin Books, 1968}
3.a) The Prophets:[Al' Anbe'ya'] 21/34 (Surah No: 21, Verse No: 34):
No man before you-[Mohammad]- have we made immortal. If you yourself are
doomed to die, will they live for ever?

3.b) The Hordes:[Zo-mar] 39/30 (Surah No: 39, Verse No: 30):
You-[Mohammad] - as well as they are doomed to die.

3.c)The Prophets:[Al' Anbe'ya'] 21/35 & 3/185 & 29/57 :
Every soul shall taste death

3.d) Mary:[Mar-yam] 19/33:
I-[Jesus]-was blessed on the day I was born and blessed I shall be on the
day of my death.

3.e) The Table [Maa'edeh] 5/117:
.. and ever since You [God] took me [Jesus] to you

3.f) The Imrans [Ala Em-raan] 3/55:
I [God] am about to cause you [Jesus] to die and lift you up to Me. I shall
take you away from unbelievers.
{last verse is quite striking since "ascension" is superseded by "death"}

Comments:
=========
You have used Dawood's (an Iraqi Jew) translation. He is not very
careful about the translation of the Qur'an. I suggest that you read
translations by Muslim scholars like - Muhammad Marmaduke Pickthall,
Abdullah Yusuf Ali and Thomas Irving (Talim Ali), to clear any doubts
concerning the so-called crucifixion of Jesus. Dawood DELIBERATELY
changes the meanings of the Qur'anic verses; the translated verse 3:55
(your reference 3.f) is a glaring example of such distortion. The proper
translation is: "I (God) will take thee (Jesus) and raise thee (Jesus)
to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehood) of those who blaspheme."
As such, your assertion that "ascension" is superseded by "death" is
simply wrong. The verse only says that Jesus was raised alive to the
heaven and that God was going to clear him of all charges of blasphemy
(which the Christians believe, and Jews accused him of, as per gospel
accounts) since Jesus never claimed divinity; and this was done through
the message in the Qur'an which Muhammad (SAWS) brought:
" And when God saith (namely, on the Day of Judgement): O Jesus, son of
Maryam| Didst thou say unto mankind: take me and my mother for two gods
beside God? He saith: (God) be glorified| It was not mine to utter that
to which I had no right. If I used to say it, then Thou knowest it.
Thou knewest what is in my mind, and I know not what is in Thine mind.
Behold| Thou, only Thou art knower of things hidden. I speak unto them
only that which Thou commandest me (saying): Worship God, my Lord and
your Lord." (Qur'an 5:116:117)

The verse 19:33 in Surah Maryam does not say that Jesus died, but merely
that, like some other prophets, both his birth-day and the day of his
death (a future happening) are (will be) days of blessing (also mark the
future tense in the second part of the sentence) for him. The other
verses you cited simply say that all human beings are mortal. Of course,
we are. And Jesus is also going to taste death when he returns towards
the end of time, after killing ad-Dajjal, the false Messiah. But that
event simply has not happened yet.

We don't trust the account in the so-called New Testament about Jesus.
For us the Qur'an is sufficient, since it is the ONLY heavenly book which
had retained its textual purity from the very day it was revealed to our
Prophet, Muhammad (SAWS). No other book can compare with it. As far as
the books of the New Testament are concerned, even the Biblical scholars
have ascertained that the entire collection is PSEUDEPIGRAPHIC; none of the
eye-witnesses to the so-called crucifixion account wrote the gospels;
the real authors were different than the ascribed names in the NT. As
such, the christian Biblical account is of NO value to Muslims, we
reject its authenticity wholesale. Nevertheless, it is worthwhile to
remind you how hundreds of gospels/epistles were banned by the Pauline/
Trinitarian church in the early christian era. Thanks to the recent
discoveries in many places, esp. the Nag Hamadi area in Egypt, which had
a sizable number of original christians, whose beliefs were quite diffe-
rent than the present-day christians, e.g., they believed that Jesus was
substituted on the cross by someone else, and that Jesus did not die
(Read J. Robinson's The Second Treatise of the Great Seth). Think for a
moment if these original Christians were in the upper hand as to decid-
ing what gospels/epistles to be considered canonical and what to be
considered apocryphal, instead of the Pauline/Trinitarian christians who
contaminated gospels, it might well have been that the entire NT as it
stands today would have a different type of contents showing that Jesus
did not die, nor was he crucified on a cross, but was ascended alive to
heaven and that he would physically return towards the end of time. In
that case, you would find no one to question the explicit statements in
the Quran. Don't tell me that these scrolls found in Nag Hamadi area
are written by Muslims to prove the Muslim belief. No, the scholars have
shown that these scrolls date back to the period immediately following
the ascension of Jesus to heaven, and a few hundred years before the
birth of Muhammad (SAWS) in Makkah.

A key factor in analyzing the Qur'anic verses is their interpretation
provided (or explained) by Prophet Muhammad (SAWS) himself. Islam,
indeed, is a composite of Qur'an and Sunnah. ALL the ahadith of Muhammad
(SAWS) clearly say that Jesus did not die, nor was crucified, and is
alive in heaven and will return to kill the false messiah (ad-Dazzal)
towards the end of time, and that he will rule with authority, and will
marry and die a natural death and be buried next to the grave of Muhammad
(SAWS) in Madinah. Read the hadith compilations by Imam Bukhari and Muslim
and others. There is no disagreement on this matter amongst the Sunnis
and Shias. The hadith compilation by Imam Malik, al-Muwatta (like other
sahih hadith books later) report that Muhammad (SAWS) claimed that
he was the LAST (seal) of the Prophets/Messengers, i.e., after him no
Prophet (minor or major) will come:
     "Imam Malik from Malik from ibn-Shihab from Muhammad ibn-Jubayr ibn
     Mu'tim that Prophet (Muhammad) (SAWS) said: 'I have FIVE names. I
     am Muhammad. I am Ahmad. I am al-Mahi (the effacer), by whom Allah
     effaces Kufr. I am al-Hashir (the gatherer), before whom people are
     gathered. I am al-Aqib (the last)." (Tr. Ayesha Abdur-Rahman
at-Tarjumana, Diwan Press) As such Bab, Bahaullah, Mirza Golam Ahmed and
other such claimants for prophethood after the death of Muhammad (SAWS)
were only apostates that Muhammad (SAWS) truly warned us about. E.G.,
     Muhammad (SAWS) said, "Verily, thirty imposters will appear in my
     Ummah and each one of them will claim to be a prophet, though I am
   the LAST of ALL the Prophets and there will be NO PROPHET AFTER ME"
(narrated in Abu-Daud, at-Tirmizi, Sahib ibn-Hibban, Fateh-ul-Bari, and
many others). As such, you can see that the explanation of various
verses in the Qur'an, e.g., about the finality of Prophethood (Khatam-an
-Nabi'in) through Muhammad (SAWS):
    "Muhammad is not the father of any of your man, but (he is) the
    Messenger of Allah, and the SEAL of Prophets. And Allah has full
    knowledge of all things." (Qur'an 33:40)
and Jesus's not being crucified, and raised alive to heaven:
    "That they said (in boast), 'We killed al-Masih Eesa ibn-Maryam,
    the messenger of Allah' - But they killed him NOT, NOR crucified
    him. Only a LIKENESS of that was shown to them. And those who do
    differ therein are FULL of DOUBTS, with NO (certain) knowledge. But
    only a CONJECTURE to follow, for of a surety they killed him NOT.
    Nay, Allah RAISED him up unto Himself; Allah is Exalted in Power,
    Wise." (Qur'an 4:157-158)
are explained in detail by the
very sayings of our Prophet, Muhammad (SAWS). We cannot ignore the sahih
ahadith of Rasulullah, nor the explicit statements in the Qur'an on any
matter; when a matter is decided by the Qur'an and Sunnah, the matter is
CLOSED for any believer, no alternative opinion(s), contrary to these
established ones, can be accepted. Does the belief in coming of Jesus
toward the end of time and his being alive in the heaven violate Islamic
principles? No. When Allah decrees a thing, it happens precisely the way
He intended it to happen. The God who created our forefather - Adam
without any parents, was also able to create Jesus without a father,
was able to create a way for rescuing bani-Israel from Egypt by parting
the Red Sea, was able to split the moon into two as one of thousands
of miracles which He bestowed upon His slave - Muhammad (SAWS). The same
God can definitely rescue Jesus before his crucifixion and also substi-
tute someone who resembled like Jesus on the cross, and can preserve
Jesus in the heaven until his final coming to kill ad-Dajjal al-Kazzab.
Don't forget that Muslims believe that before the coming of Eesa (AWS)
there will be a state of fitnah stirred by ad-Dajjal. Yet, according
to sahih Hadith of Rasulullah (as compiled by Bukhari) it shows that
certain sahaba actually met the Dajjal in a remote island, during the
time of Muhammad (SAWS), which means that Dajjal is going to live
through all this period until his final act, before his being killed
by Eesa (AWS). Allah simply had willed that ad-Dajjal be now hidden
from our sight; where he is now, no one probably knows. That is God's
decree. Here is another hadith about Eesa (AWS) and ad-Dajjal that Imam
Malik reported in al-Muwatta:
   "Yahya related to me from Malik from Nafi from Abdullah ibn-Umar that
   Rasulullah (SAWS) said, 'I dreamt at one night that I was at al-Ka'ba
   and I saw a DARK man like the most handsome dark man you have ever
   seen. He had hair reaching to between his ears and his shoulders like
   the most excellent of such hair that you have seen. He had combed his
   hair, and water was dripping from it. He was leaning on two men or on
   the shoulders of two men doing Tawaf around Ka'ba. I asked: "Who is
   this?" It was said, "al-Masih ibn-Maryam." Then we were with a man
   with a wiry hair and blind in his right eye, as if it was a floating
   grape. I asked, "Who is this?" It was said to me, "This is al-Masih
   ad-Dajjal." ' " (op. cit.)

During the Isra and Miraj of Rasulullah, Eesa (AWS) met Jesus in one of
the lower heavens (Ref: Bukhari, Muslim & others). Rasulullah also led
the prayer of all the Prophets in Masjid al-Aqsa (ibid.). (Probably,
in fulfillment of the Prophet Haggai's prophecy (Haggai 2:7-9) and
Malachi's prophecy (Malachi 3:1), and compare to Surah bani-Israel,
verse 1: "Glorified be He Who carried His servant (Muhammad) by night
from the Inviolable Place of Worship (Masjid al-Haram in Makkah) to the
Far Distant Place of Worship (Masjid al-Aqsa in Jerusalem) the neigh-
borhood whereof We have blessed, that We might show him (Muhammad) of
Our tokens| Lo| He, only He, is the Hearer, the Seer.") How can one
explain this miracle pertaining to Muhammad's (SAWS) night journey from
Makkah to Jerusalem and then to the heavens (where he met important
Prophets of Allah, e.g., Musa, Adam, Eesa, and others) and his return
back to Makkah - all happening in a small fraction of time? Simple logic
cannot explain this and other miracles performed (with permissions from
Allah) by the Prophets of Allah. Yet, we, Muslims accept the truth about
these miracles (including Eesa's (AWS) speaking on the cradle, his giving
life to clay to become live birds, etc.), since God bestowed such and
such capabilities to His beloved Prophets. Even the Jewish traditions
mention the fact that Enoch (Idris (AWS)) and Elijah were taken up to
heaven alive, and Jews are expecting their return before the Doom's
Day. Does this violate Jewish or Islamic principles? No, just like Eesa's
(AWS) ascension to heaven, this does not violate Islamic principles.

Some ignorant christian may then question if we, Muslims, accept all
these miracles performed by the Prophets of Allah, how come we don't
accept God coming on earth to redeem us? A valid question. But we don't
accept such a thing ever happening, because it is beyond God's Majesty
to do a thing like that (including, fathering a child, dying on the
cross, etc.). None of the prophets of Allah ever mentioned about the
possibility of such a thing. The Qur'an and the sayings of the Prophet
Muhammad (SAWS) are explicitly clear about it. On the contrary, we do
find the human-god theme pervasive in most pagan, polytheistic societies.
We as such reject all those claimants of godhood or manifestations of
God on earth, including Bab, Bahaullah and Mirza Golam Ahmed of Qadian.
All such (re)incarnate-God themes are considered to be Kufr.

(I am aware of a five-part article posted on the SRI on
Baha'i-views concerning many of these important issues which separate
them from Muslims. As such, this reply of mine is also directed at some
of the key concepts that has been brought forth by Kamran Hakim.)


Babak Mohajerin writes:
"  Islamic Traditions also clearly mention the death of Jesus:
4.a) Book of Ta-ba-ghat from IBNi SA'D Vol 3, from Imam Hassan
4.b) In Mavaheb Ghas-ta-la-nee Vol 1, P 42 from Mohammad
4.c) In Commentary of IBN KASEER Vol 2, p 46 from Mohammad
4.d) In Al-yava-gheet va Al-java-har p 24 from Mohammad "

Comments:
========
Of the four you mentioned above, I can only comment on ibn-Katheer
(I have not read the other three and cannot comment as to what is written
there. I do, however, strongly suspect that you may be misquoting
or falsifying the accounts narrated through Muhammad (SAWS) or Imam
Hassan in those books, you quoted. The well-known accepted books of
ahadith all very clearly mention that Jesus did not die, and yet you
suggest that Muhammad (SAWS) himself or his grandson - Imam Hassan (R)
believed in the death of Jesus. That is ludicrous, full of filthy lies.
Read the hadith books: Bukhari, Muslim, Abu-Daud, at-Tirmizi, ibn-Maza,
an-Nisayii, al-Muwatta, and of Ahmad-ibn-Hambal, Bayhaqi, ibn-Habban;
if you do, you will find that all these ahadith very clearly mention
that Jesus was not crucified, nor died, and is alive in heaven.). Ibn
Kathir did not mention that Jesus died. You are misquoting. This is a
total lie and we object to this. In all his writings, ibn-Katheer never
wrote anything which suggests that Jesus died. What you said is an
outright slender. Don't do that to make your points.
  As I mentioned above, I am not familiar with the other books you cited
The name of ibn-Saad do ring a bell to me, but I cannot say with all
certainty if the person you are saying is the same one that I heard of.
My recollection of one ibn-Saad is like this: He was not a Muslim but a
Jew who falsified and fabricated hadith of Rasulullah. Muslims never
trusted him, nor is he their scholar.
   I reiterate again that all the Muslim scholars believe what Muhammad
(SAWS) said and brought in the Qur'an, and in these are mentioned that
Jesus did not die. Any pseudo-scholar who, disguising his true identity,
writes sounding like Muslims,  yet disagrees with Qur'an and Sunnah, is
simply not a Muslim. We reject their interpretation of the Qur'an.

Babak Mohajerin writes:
"                                      Baha'i Faith is the only
independent religion which acknowledges the divinity of
Qur'an and that of Islam]

      The crucifixion as recounted in the New Testament is correct.
      The meaning of the Qur'anic version is that the spirit of Christ
      was not Crucified.  There is no conflict between the two.
      (From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an
       individual believer, July 14, 1943, quoted in Lights of
       Guidance, Second edition, p. 491) "

Final Comments:
==============
Thanks for such an acknowledgement. Islam, however, comprises of the
teachings of the Qur'an and Sunnah (which includes the sayings and
practices of Rasulullah). The ahadith are generally the interpretation
of verses from the Qur'an. In all the books of ahadith, Bukhari, Muslim
and others, it is very clear that Muhammad is the LAST of the Prophets
and Rasuls of Allah on earth. It is also clearly stated about Jesus's
not being crucified and/or died, and that he is alive and will return
towards the end of time. But as can be seen from the writings of Showqi
Afendi, Baha'is definitely have a disagreement with Islam, by either
misinterpreting an explicit verse in the Qur'an and/or totally ignoring
the ahadith of Rasulullah. If you acknowledge the Qur'an and Islam to be
divinely guided, then, please, accept what Islam says about the finality
of prophethood and message of Muhammad (SAWS) and about Jesus's being
alive (without ever dying before). There is no confusion about it. The
writers of the canonical gospels of the christian Bible misrepresented
the incident about crucifixion. The accounts had nothing to do with the
views of the original disciples of Jesus, for the NT books are nothing
but pseudepigraphic books, edited, and altered for several centuries to
justify the creed of Trinity and the associated dogmas concerning origi-
nal sin, vicarious atonement. Either you accept what the Qur'an says,
or reject it and believe what NT says. You cannot consider both the Qur'an
and the NT to be True, while they contradict each other on this issue.
One of these two have to be retained as containing the inerrant Word of
God, and the other rejected. We invite you to return to Islam whole-
heartedly, since you mentioned that Baha'is, like yourself, consider
the Qur'an to be divinely guided.

----------
Siddiqui.