From: s7663277@titan.ucc.umass.edu (Dread)
Newsgroups: rec.games.empire
Subject: Re: The REAL story. WOOO!
Date: 7 Apr 92 01:28:52 GMT
Organization: University of Massachusetts, Amherst

In article <1992Apr6.231109.8744@acsu.buffalo.edu> fein@acsu.buffalo.edu (Foto Fein) writes:

Geez, now I have to respond again. Let me again emphasize that the only
article I posted as 5 minutes ago. Elf was responsible for the last one.

>	That's rather amusing, Mr. Tilp, because after you let Germany
>	(Another player in the same game, that *I* let run your country
>	while you were away, botched running your country so bad,
>	you cried to LOF (who asked me to help you out..)  that you were going 
>	to quit. What should YOUR punishment be?

I knew nothing about this.

>>> any way here is my final announcement that I never got to make, it should
>>> explain to most of you what was going on...
>>> 
>>> 
>>> > Announcement from Dreadlands, (#14)  dated Sun Apr  5 15:33:59 1992
>
>	This announcement NEVER appeared in the game, and is therefore 
>	irrelevant. But then so is most of this sorry argument.
>

This announcement never appeared in the game 'cause it was turned off.
Give me a break. You say LOF did it, fine. However, we never got a chance
to talk this out. Don't yell at Elf for venting his frustration in the
only place possible.

>>
>>[various bitching, but fully rightful bitching deleted]
>>
>
>	How is the bitching "fully righteous"? Is there any proof that
>	LOF (using the deity country) cheated? Did not YOU benefit
>	ALSO in this game from cheating? Who decides if Dread is right?
>	You? Who appointed YOU judge and jury? 
>

That is why I wanted to hear what other people had to say before I quit.

>
>>> Having recieved several reports from many different people regarding various
>>> people's cheating (including LOF, who claims that Dopey was cheating) (but 
>>>how
>>> would he know without using the Deity account?) Why was he in the deity
>>account
>>> answering questions? Why couldn't he answer questions from his own country?
>
>	REPORTS FROM WHO? WHO, GODDAMMIT, JUST *WHO*? WHY IS IT THAT NOT
>	*ONE*  REPORT OF CHEATING CAME MY WHY? WHY IS IT THAT THE *ONLY*
>	INCIDENT OF CHEATING WAS FROM DOPEY BREAKING THE DEITY'S PASSWORD
>	WAS DISCOVERED BY ME? AND YOU STILL SHOOT OFF YOUR MOUTH SAYING THAT
>	YOU HAVE SEVERAL REPORTS OF CHEATING?
>

Can't speak for others, but I was willing to ignore the reports and give
you (as it turns out LOF, but I thought you were still deitying) the benefit
of the doubt. It was the bulletin theat tore it.

>
>>
>>	There was a hell of alot of cheating going on in this game, NO ONE 
>>could
>>have managed to count all of the instances.
>>  
>>> I've had a little bit of fun here, but I can't hope to wage war on the 
>>deity.
>
>	From your performance in the game, You could not hope to wage war on
>	a tree, unless the tree was blindfolded, gagged and had it's limbs
>	tied behind it's back.... And then, maybe.
>

How was our performance so bad, Rodina? Dreadlands was in third place, and
was bidding its time to strike at LOF. Don't give me that.

>	AND HOW IN THE NAME OF GOD DO YOU "KNOW" THERE WAS CHEATING GOING ON?
>	Do you possess some sort of "second sight"? 

Well, when a player has access to the deity account, that is cheating in my
book.

>	So, I guess you're really going to show me, eh? I quit, LOF fucks
>	up by letting the cat out of the bag, and I'm the bad guy.

Well, actually I think you are in the wrong. You should have announced
that you were no longer deitying and maybe something could have been worked
out.

>>> Oh and yes that does count as running more then one country...
>
>	Something Wyvernal did... Or had done. But that seems to escape
>	everyone.

I knew nothing of this. Not everyone had access to deity information. I
didn't even know LOF was a from buffalo until a few days before this came
to a head.

>
>	Now who spoiled it?
>	In MY opinion, LOF and Dread can share the blame equally..
>	LOF for letting someone know that he was running the game, and 
>	Dread for squealing like a pig when he found out.
>

Oh no! How dare I get angry that a player is playing from the deity account.
Yeah, it is totally my fault. How dare I let the rest of the game in on it
(which you or LOF quickly put a stop too by turning off the game)
Excuse me if I don't believe this to be me spoiling the game.

>
>	Well, I'll let LOF fight his own wars. But it's really funny, you know.
>	Throughout all the game, with the exception of Wyvernal, the only
>	players that cried and whined at every turn was the experienced
>	players. The Newbies just played. So I congratulate them.
>

Actually, Mith and I didn't "cry and whine". I totally agreed with him, and I
supported him. When you try to change the victory conditions in the middle
of the game, that is ridiculous. If we are to just shut up and take or
be accused of "whining and crying", then I'll cry and whine.

>	
>	Yes, Dread, compliment Wyvernal for doing well when he had the
>	help of a deity... 
>

1) Elf posted it.
2) I asked him to thank Fester and Wyvernal.
3) I did not know Wyvernal had the deity's help.

>	 
>	I never saw Dread threaten to quit over the change in victory
>	conditions. Note also that (for the record) I NEVER SET VICTORY
>	CONDITIONS BEFORE THAT DAY! YOU assumed the victory conditions.
>	I cannot be blamed for your assumptions.
>

Victory conditions are pretty standard in empire, so I thought. And when
Mith asked me if I was with him (in quitting), I said I was. However, you
soon changed your mind (I thought), so nothing came of it.

>
>>
>>	Amazing. Unbelievable. Why would Rodina ever want to change the win
>>conditions? I could never guess.
>> 
>
>	Why don't you shove your nose FURTHER up Dreadland's ass?
>	And the WIN CONDITIONS WERE *NOT* CHANGED AT LOF REQUEST!
>	*I* set them of my own free will.. IF YOU WILL RECALL, LOF
>	WAS THE ONE WHO CHANGED THEM, WHEN HE TOOK OVER
>	DEITYING!!!
>

As we recall? How did we know that he took over deitying?

>>> This game was far from over. And Land_Of_Faa could not hope to win it
>>> by any means. Chances are that Dreadlands or Mithrilien would have taken
>>> him out, perhaps a team effort. Certainly our allies were in a better 
>>> position then his. But how can you win when the enemy's ally is the deity?
>
>	No, when there's a 40,000,000 point lead between third and fourth,
>	it seems pretty obvious that the game is winding down...
>	And how do you know whose allies were in a better position?
>

Well, I agree with Rodina here. I knew little of Land_of_FaaKing's allies.
However, when I asked him to ally and he ignored me, I assumed he wasn't
going to be friendly. Thus, don't claim this "Dreadlands would have been
squashed by our coalition before he even knew what hit him" crap. Why do
you think my attacks on Bongoland were half-hearted at best?

Also, it is a bit rude to treat Wyvernal like he is a two-year old. Maybe he
is only a newbie, but give the guy a break.

To sum up, I will take no blame for this mess. Don't get pissed at me for
bringing the facts out into the open. If LOF is innocent, then maybe we
could have found that out. Anyway, I am proud that I let the world know that
LOF was in the deity's account. What did you want me to do, hush hush and
get him to help me out too? Give me a break.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dread				      (Richard Robinson, Univ of Mass, Amherst)
s7663277@titan.ucc.umass.edu	      "There is no right, there is only power!"
robinson@elux3.cs.umass.edu		     "Kill them, kill them all!" 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------