From: homebrew@lupulus.ssc.gov
Subject: HOMEBREW Digest #1012
Organization: The Internet
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 10:49:34 GMT


HOMEBREW Digest #1012                        Fri 13 November 1992


        FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
                Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  Weihenstephan (Alan B. Carlson)
  Roasting malted barley (Donald_James)
  Roasting malted barley (Donald_James)
  Roasting malted barley (Donald_James)
  Sam Adams Triple Bock (JEROMED)
  CORN SUGAR ("Spencer W. Thomas")
  Sad Tidings from the Natural State (MPLOTT)
  Hop Back vs Dry Hopping (oehler)
  Aluminum pots, Wyeast purity (The Ice-9-man Cometh)
  corn starch/corn sugar/corn syrup (Tony Babinec)
  Brewpub/Micro list (JIM MCNUTT)
  Rehydrating yeast (James P. Buchman)
  A New Variable! (Martin A. Lodahl)
  Re:  Wyeast 1056 Problems (Jim Scott)
  Wyeast Bavarian Lager problem (CW06GST)
  rec.craft.brewing (Estes)
  Stainless Steel Pots 8-10 gallon ("David E. Dickson")
  Re: Roasted Crystal/US-UK Sugars/Diacetyl/Why rack so early? (korz)
  Anchor Porter questions (Guy D. McConnell)
  Pub List Update (jmellby)
  West Virginia brew? (Guy D. McConnell)
  Pilsner Recipes? (Mike Mahler)
  Cooking the wheat in witbiers (STROUD)
  John Bull Master (Pislner) Kit (Mike Mahler)
  Difference?? (Brian Michael Cors)
  Hops? (David Suda)
  kegging v.s bottling, try2  (Bill Moyer)
  EDME YEAST (BMOORE)
  Real Ale from a Carboy(?) (Pat Lasswell)
  Efficiency vs Winners (Jack Schmidling)
  What would you call this ale?  (Mike Mahler)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Nov 92 09:40:56 +0100
From: Alan B. Carlson <alanc@cs.chalmers.se>
Subject: Weihenstephan

I saw a discussion about using Weihenstephan yeast awhile back. Can one
cultivate the dregs at the bottom of a bottle of Weihenstephan beer? If
that is possible, what procedure should I use?

ABC

-
 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alan B. Carlson                      Phone: +46 31 772 10 73
Chalmers University of Technology    UUCP: alanc@cs.chalmers.se
Department of Computer Sciences
S-412 96 Gothenburg
SWEDEN
-
 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------

Date:           Thu, 12 Nov 92 7:08 EST
From: Donald_James@vos.stratus.com
Subject:        Roasting malted barley

Homebrew,

I would like to know the procedure to roast pale malted barley to
create various specility grains, ei, roasted, chocolate, and black.
I need the temperature/time requirements and any other pertinent
information.

Also, I would like to know how to produce crystal and cara_pill grains
from barley. I'm finding it difficult to buy light crystal in my area.


Thanks,
Don James
Stratus Computer


------------------------------

Date:           Thu, 12 Nov 92 7:09 EST
From: Donald_James@vos.stratus.com
Subject:        Roasting malted barley

homebrew,

I would like to know the procedure to roast pale malted barley to
create various specility grains, ei, roasted, chocolate, and black.
I need the temperature/time requirements and any other pertinent
information.

Also, I would like to know how to produce crystal and cara_pill grains
from barley. I'm finding it difficult to buy light crystal in my area.


Thanks,
Don James



Stratus Computer

Date:           Thu, 12 Nov 92 7:08 EST
From:           Donald_James@vos.stratus.com
To:             homebrew@hpfcmi.fc.hp.com
Subject:        Roasting malted barley

Homebrew,

I would like to know the procedure to roast pale malted barley to
create various specility grains, ei, roasted, chocolate, and black.
I need the temperature/time requirements and any other pertinent
information.

Also, I would like to know how to produce crystal and cara_pill grains
from barley. I'm finding it difficult to buy light crystal in my area.


Thanks,
Don James
Stratus Computer


------------------------------

Date:           Thu, 12 Nov 92 7:10 EST
From: Donald_James@vos.stratus.com
Subject:        Roasting malted barley

Homebrew,

I would like to know the procedure to roast pale malted barley to
create various specialty grains, ei, roasted, chocolate, and black.
I need the temperature/time requirements and any other pertinent
information.

Also, I would like to know how to produce crystal and cara_pill grains
from barley. I'm finding it difficult to buy light crystal in my area.


Thanks,
Don James
Stratus Computer


------------------------------

Date: 12 Nov 92 12:51:00 WET
From: JEROMED@fsdec3.wtp.gtefsd.com
Subject: Sam Adams Triple Bock

For those of you who live near Boston (or will visit soon), Doyle's (in Jamaica
Plain) has a batch of Sam Adams Triple Bock.

I was told that the beer is about 10% alcohol, and from the sample I tried I
would have to say that was accurate.  It reminded me of Thomas Hardy Ale,
although I haven't tried that in a while.

According to one of the owners of Doyle's, only three barrels were produced and
they have all three.  Some of the beer was bottled and is available at the
Union Oyster House in Boston.

Dave Jerome


------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Nov 92 09:10:33 EST
From: "Spencer W. Thomas" <Spencer.W.Thomas@med.umich.edu>
Subject: CORN SUGAR

Terminology: US "corn" = rest of world "maize".

Corn Sugar is dextrose.  I'm really not sure what the UK equivalent
would be.

Corn Syrup is (I think) a very heavy solution of dextrose in water
(but could include some other sugars). It usually is clear, but can be
gotten in a "dark" variety that is a medium, clear brown color.
Probably just has caramel coloring added.

Corn Starch is just that -- the starch extracted from corn (maize).
It's a very fine powder, with no graininess/grittiness at all.  If we
have something called corn flour (terminology varies from one part of
the country to another), it would probably be what I call "corn meal"
- -- ground hard corn kernels.

=S

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Nov 92 09:36:30 EST
From: MPLOTT@ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: Sad Tidings from the Natural State

Hi,

   My wife and I were planning on purchasing some homebrew startup equipment
as a wedding gift for friends in our home state of Arkansas.  While talking
with them last night, however, they claimed that homebrewing is ILLEGAL in
Arkansas.  Does anyone know if this is true?  If it is, what can we do
about it?
                                                Thanks,
                                                Michael Plott
                                                MPLOTT@UCS.INDIANA.EDU

------------------------------

Date:  Thu, 12 Nov 92 09:31:05 EST
From: oehler@smpvax.dnet.ge.com
Subject: Hop Back vs Dry Hopping

Good Morning HBD'ers,

Recently, there has been a thread about Hop Backs.  The first time I heard
about a Hop Back was in the recent Zymurgy Special Issue (Gadgets), so I
obviously have no experience with them.  Hence, this posting.

As I understand it, a hop back is used to impart a wonderful Hop Aroma and
Flavor to one's beer.  When is it used (before or after fermentation)?
How does this technique compare to Dry Hopping (do they do the same thing)?

I've always used hop pellets during boil and have never been really satisfied
with my hop nose or flavor.  Recently, I tried a Pete's Wicked Ale from a
micro in Minnesota (Montana? Well, large state that begins with M) whose
name escapes me.  I was VERY impressed with both the wonderful hop aroma and
flavor in this ale.  Now I really know what I've been missing.

What's the best way to get this?  Will a hop back or dry hopping do this?


Better living through Zymurgy,

Pete Oehler

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 12 Nov 1992 8:51:12 -0600 (CST)
From: SMITH@EPVAX.MSFC.NASA.GOV (The Ice-9-man Cometh)
Subject: Aluminum pots, Wyeast purity

hey folks.

Last weekend I was about to start a batch o'stout, so I pre-boiled 4 gal.
of water and put it in a carboy to cool overnight.  I boiled tap water
in my 12-quart aluminum pot for 10 minutes for each of 2 batches.  The
resulting water was cloudy, with scum on top (my tap water is clear when
it comes out).  The next morning, the cloudiness had mostly settled
into a layer of furry white precipitate at the bottom.  The local water
chemist thought this stuff was CaCO3 but I don't understand why it came
out of solution.  Maybe the water was acidic and the aluminum catalyzed
some sort of reaction?  "Dammit Jim, I'm a rocket scientist, not a
chemist!"  :)

Anyway, my reaction was to hit the local restaurant supply house and buy
a Vollrath 12-qt stainless pot (for $17.67, pththth, gotta love used
equipment).  Someday I'll find a huge pot and go for full boil, someday.

About yeast:  I've been brewing with Edme for a couple of years now with
no infections.  So of course, the first time I try Wyeast, I get little
white rings in all my bottles.  Bleah.  I'm going back to Edme; I couldn't
taste any difference before the rings appeared, either.  I don't know where
this "switching to liquid yeast improved my beer 100%" business came from
but it sure didn't do much for me....


|    James W. Smith, NASA MSFC EP-53    |     SMITH@epvax.msfc.nasa.gov      |
|   "Come with us, we'll sail the Seas of Cheese!"  -- Les.Claypool@Primus   |
|     Neither NASA nor (!James) is responsible for what I say. Mea culpa.    |


------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Nov 92 9:53:50 CST
From: tony@spss.com (Tony Babinec)
Subject: corn starch/corn sugar/corn syrup

First, let's be clear on "corn."  Corn is the American cereal plant
"Zea mays."  What we call corn you might know as maize.

Corn starch is literally that.  It is widely available.  You can
use it in recipes that call for corn, in lew of using flaked maize.
Just measure some, and sprinkle it in your mash.  American brewers
use corn for a "smoother" flavor in their beers, although the fact
that it costs less than malt probably has something to do with it.
>From reading Roger Protz's "Real Ale Almanac," it's clear that some
English brewers use corn in addition to malt.

Corn sugar is "dextrose" or "glucose."  It is commonly used for
priming at bottling time.  It can be added to the boil to increase
the gravity, and it ferments completely.

Corn syrup is also refined from corn.  It comes in syrup form, and
its contents may vary.  For example, there is "high fructose corn
syrup."  In food processing, corn syrup is used as a sweetener in
lew of cane sugar or beet sugar.

------------------------------

Date:        Thu, 12 Nov 92 11:04:18 EST
From: JIM MCNUTT <INJM%MCGILLB.BITNET@VM1.MCGILL.CA>
Subject: Brewpub/Micro list

TO: GLW@GRANJON.ATT.COM
I can't access your email address from Montreal, but I saw your note
re: a brewpub/micro list which was available from "alt.beer".
What is "alt.beer" and how do I access it.
Thanks.
Jim McNutt

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Nov 92 10:40:44 EST
From: James P. Buchman <buchman@marva2.ENET.dec.com>
Subject: Rehydrating yeast

> New topic: I've been using Edme dried yeast ever since Whitbred quit
> making dried yeast a few months back.  For my last few batches, I've
> been hydrating the yeast prior to pitching, but haven't tried making a
> starter.  Perhaps it works "too well" without one: I'm looking for
> opinions.

Before pitching Edme or Whitbread ale yeasts, I always rehydrate by
adding the yeast to a cup of boiled water which has been cooled to 100 F.
In half an hour, the yeast solution is rehydrated and resembles white
froth, and is ready for pitching. My starts using this method have
always been fast. I would still recommend starters for liquid yeast,
however, since it is not necessarily as hardy as yeast which can survive
dehydrating.

An article was posted on yeast hydration some months ago, which I can
dig up if you like. It was felt that the presence of sugars and nutrients
in the wort would actually be detrimental to yeast in the rehydration
phase; something to do with the cell walls.
                        Good luck,
                                Jim Buchman

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Nov 92 8:26:02 PST
From: Martin A. Lodahl <pbmoss!malodah@PacBell.COM>
Subject: A New Variable!

In this morning's mail I had a response to my posting on pouring
plates in HBD 1011.  Cush Hamlen has been doing similar work, and
observed:

> The last batch I made used one tablespoon of Agar to one cup of
> wort.  I found the resulting gelatine to be too soft: the slants
> had A LOT fluid in them, and the gel actually started to sag (i.e.
> not keep the slant shape).  Also, the yeast managed to get *under*
> the gel as the stuff started to develop cracks.
>
> I had decided to make another batch using TWO tablespoons of Agar
> per cup of wort.  But here you come saying to use one *teaspoon*
> of agar for 375 ml (where a cup is about 250ml)!

This brings up a factor that had frankly eluded me altogether:  the
variability of food-grade (as opposed to lab-grade) agar.  All of
the agar I've used in the last few years has come from a single
shop and has performed consistently, but that doesn't at all mean
that everyone's agar will perform the same way.  You may have to
experiment a bit.

Another thought that occurs to me is that storage conditions can
have a considerable effect on the agar.  I live in an area with
fairly low relative humidity year-round, and I keep my slants and
plates in the 'fridge except when incubating right after
inoculation.  When I first started culturing I kept everything at
room temperature all the time, and in the dry heat of Sierra
foothill summer I had problems with the agar shrinking and cracking.
The sagging may be a humidity effect, but we don't have much of that
here.

Anyhow, as I should have said in my original post, your mileage may
vary;  experiment.

= Martin A. Lodahl                      Pacific*Bell Systems Analyst =
= malodah@pbmoss.Pacbell.COM       Sacramento, CA       916.972.4821 =
= If it's good for ancient Druids, runnin' nekkid through the wuids, =
= Drinkin' strange fermented fluids, it's good enough for me!  8-)   =


------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Nov 92 11:36:52 EST
From: Jim Scott <jws@hpuerca.atl.hp.com>
Subject: Re:  Wyeast 1056 Problems

In HOMEBREW Digest #1011 gcw@granjon.att.com wrote about his problem with
Wyeast 1056.  Last month I had the same problem also with a fresh package.
I poured in the puffed up package into my starter, the next day no apparent
activity but alot of trub left behind.  Since I had 5 gallons of wort just
aching to start bubbling I shook up the starter and poured it in.  Twelve
hours later things were going nicely with a 1/2 inch layer of foam and
growing.  And yes the beer is good.

- ---------
Jim Scott       Hewlett Packard         jws@hpuerca.atl.hp.com

------------------------------

Date:        Thu, 12 Nov 92 12:02:00 EST
From: CW06GST <CW06GST%SJUMUSIC.bitnet@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Subject: Wyeast Bavarian Lager problem

     Thanks to all of you who responded to my last post about
Wyeast Bavarian Lager.  Happily, the beer is now fermenting.
Apparently, from what everyone has told me, the yeast probably
went into temperature shock.  The yeast was pitched at 70 deg.
and then put into a 45 deg. fridge.  I should have cooled the
wort to a lower temperature before ptching the yeast, and had the
fridge at a higher temperature.  Say, cool wort to 60 and put in
55 deg fridge.  Please correct me if I'm wrong.

     The wort is now bubbling away at room temperature.  My question
now is, should I ferment in primary at room temp. or can I now put the
beer in the fridge while active fermentation is taking place?  If I
let the active fermentation take place at room temperature, can I
then place directly in fridge for lagering or should I rack to
a secondary vessel before putting in fridge?  Alternately, I could
just ferment at room temp and forget about lagering and make a steam
beer.  As always, any suggestions are greatly appreciated.


      Thanks for your support,
      Erik Zenhausern

------------------------------

Date:         Thu, 12 Nov 92 12:24:48 EST
From: Estes <WOESSNER@VM.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject:      rec.craft.brewing

I tried to send this yesterday, but the automatic repley thought I wanted to
become a member of the HBD.  Do not use the word s u b s c r i b e when writing
it may and you to the list again and not print your message.  I have heard of
a news group called rec.craft.brewing and would like to become a user.  Anyone
who knows how please send me the particulars.

                                 Thanks in advance,

                                       Estes of Manang

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Nov 92 12:43:31 EST
From: "David E. Dickson" <dd@olympus.ctron.com>
Subject: Stainless Steel Pots 8-10 gallon

Hi,

I am in search of an 8 - 10 gallon Stainless Steel Brewing Kettle/Stock Pot
at a reasonable price. I am currently using the old cost effective ceramic
lobster pot type. It seems theres quite a price jump from the 5 gallon size
available at Ames for $24.95 or so to the 10 gallon resturant model for $150.00.
The 5 gallon size is a little tight to get 5 gallons of water, all boil
ingredients, and a wort chiller into. If any one reading this knows of a source
for 8 to 10 gallon stainless vessels at a fair price please email me at:

        dd@ctron.com     (David Dickson)

Thanks

        -dd-


------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Nov 92 11:49 CST
From: korz@iepubj.att.com
Subject: Re: Roasted Crystal/US-UK Sugars/Diacetyl/Why rack so early?


Marc writes:
>For stouts I'd suggest roasting unmalted barley, though malt will probably
>also do (I use roasted crystal malt in a favourite 'dubbel' variation).

Also, Kari writes:
>       There are many recipes in cats meow where toasted malt is used,
>       sometimes with crystal malt, sometimes without.  I wonder what
>       happens if instead of crystal malt I only used toasted?  What
>       would be the effect in taste?  And how long pale malts should
>       be toasted (in 350F) to get close to 60L crystal?  All comments

I'd just like to note that crystal malts and pale/lager malts are VERY
different.  Roasting crystal is much different from roasting a pale or
lager malt.  Crystal malts are sort-of "mashed in the husk" and thus
are virtually all sugar (albeit some being quite complex dextrins).
Pale and lager malts are still mostly starch.  Therefore, if you roast
crystal, you are caramelizing sugar, whereas if you roast pale or lager
malts (or especially unmalted barley) you are mostly toasting starch.
Caramelized sugar tastes like, well... caramel, whereas toasted starch
tastes like, well... toast (toasted bread).  Two very different flavors!

*********************
Martin writes:
>US                UK
>==                ==
>Corn Starch       Corn Flour
>Corn Sugar        ?
>Corn Syrup        ?
>
>What exactly is Corn Syrup and Corn Sugar? It doesn't seem to be
>generally available in the UK.

Corn Sugar is basically glucose.  In the US, it is sometimes called
by it's trade name "dextrose."  (Sounds like someone let their trade
mark lapse.)  Corn Syrup is just glucose syrup -- think of it as a
highly-refined Lyle's Golden Syrup.

*********************
I wrote:
>3. Could fermentation have completed in the first 24 hours?  One way to
>make a beer with a lot of diacetyl is to rack it off the yeast as soon
>as fermentation is over -- there will be less yeast to re-absorb the
>diacetyl and more will be left in the beer.

More accurately:
One way to make a beer with a lot of diacetyl is to fine it and then
                                       (correction) ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
rack it off the yeast as soon as fermentation is over -- there will be
less yeast to re-absorb the diacetyl.

(Fining is the addition of finings like gelatin, isinglass or Polyclar(tm)
to precipitate out something -- usually either yeast, protein or tannins
- -- in this case yeast.  Note that most (I believe) finings work
electrostatically, so you would need to use the right one for yeast --
I'm quite sure that gelatin and isinglass work.).

*********************
Jack writes:
> I am curious to know what would motivate one to rack at such an early stage.
> One of the objectives of two stage fermentation is to leave as much stuff
> behind after each stage and primary fermentation would just be well under way
> in 24 hours.

There has been much debate about this issue, but the theory is that fermenting
on top of the hot and cold break (which consists of all kinds of proteins,
hop resins, tannins, etc.) will cause the creation of more fusel (higher)
alcohols.  Another camp (one in which I'm firmly entrenched) is the one that
says that these fusel alcohols and hop resins will exit the ferment through
the kraeusen (the blowoff), which is why I use the blowoff method of
fermentation.  In numerous places, HBD being a popular one, many have
written that "if you ferment on the break, you MUST use the blowoff method
or skim the kraeusen."  Well, as we all know, nothing is really a *must*, but
I have noticed in test batches that I've made from a single wort, that (while
fermenting on most of the break material) the non-blowoff sub-batches taste much
harsher and more astringent than their blowoff counterparts.  An underhopped
batch actually tasted better in the non-blowoff sub-batch than in the blowoff
sub-batch.  If I had hopped correctly (for an IPA), the non-blowoff sub-batch
would have been undrinkable.

Personally, I chill with an immersion chiller and try to leave as much of the
break in the kettle or funnel sieve -- I then ferment with the blowoff method.
It may be good to wait till all the break has settled or to let the yeast
munch on the break during *respiration* as I've written before, but I tend to
not worry about it that much -- I don't always follow the best *theoretical*
practices and I think my beer turns out quite well.

Al.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Nov 92 12:35:20 CST
From: guy@mspe5.b11.ingr.com (Guy D. McConnell)
Subject: Anchor Porter questions

    I'm rather glad to see the subject of Anchor Porter come up as I have been
formulating a porter recipe that I would like to closely approximate it.  I
looked in Rich Cook's account of his Anchor brewery tour and noticed that he
mentioned seeing bags of Northern Brewer and Hersbrucker hops.  Are both of
these used in the porter?  Perhaps Northern Brewer for bittering (with maybe a
bit of Hersbrucker as well) and Hersbrucker as a finishing hop?  Rich also
mentioned that he thought they dryhopped all of their beers.  Is this true of
the porter as well?  Or am I totally off-base here and only Northern Brewer
are used?  Thanks for any input, public or private.

- --
Guy McConnell  guy@mspe5.b11.ingr.com  or  ...uunet!ingr!b11!mspe5!guy
                  "All I need is a pint a day"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Nov 92 12:34:36 -0600
From: jmellby@iluvatar.dseg.ti.com
Subject: Pub List Update

For those of you who want a listing with more than just brewpubs on it,
I have put up on the Homebrew archive at sierra.Stanford.EDU (courtesy
of Stephen Hansen) the latest version of my listing of beer-related
establishments.  This file contains
        Brewpubs
        Pubs/Bars
        Restaurants
        Beer Stores (Liquor stores and Wine stores)
        Microbreweries (not complete)
        Breweries (fewer of these)
        Importers (still fewer of these)
        Misc (like the Scotch Whiskey Society)

The file itself is in compressed format
and is in pub/homebrew/incoming (although Stephen will probably
move it to pub/homebrew) named pubs-nov92.Z
I am still inputting more bars from the latest BarleyCorn, as well as
trying to fix errors I detect in the latest Brewpub listings.

For most of these the database contains names, addresses, city, state,
zip code, area-code and phone number, the type of entry, and notes.
Since some of these are from other people's listings or listing
in the beer magazines (especially the California Celebrator) there is
only the name, address, and type of establishment.

The notes are either my own, notes from Usenet/News, or
Homebrew digest, or things I extracted from reviews in magazines.
The last few years I have tried to attribute the notes or information
to the original poster.  If I missed anyone's name I apologize now.

    I have been keeping this file for some 5 years now.  Major sources of
    input have been various issues of the California Celebrator (I cannot
    recommend this paper enough) and the Cascade Beer News.  I have also put
    in information from reviews in magazines like "All About Beer" and the
    "Whole Beer Review", both good magazines.  This last year I have also
    got copies of "Rocky Mountain Brews" and "BarleyCorn" centered in the
    Rocky Mountain states, and Washington D.C.  I haven't tried  to input
    information wholesale from books listing pubs because I have an
    underlying feeling that I wouldn't want to cut into their market.  The
    magazines/newspapers have so much other than pub listings to offer that
    I cannot see this impacting their business.

My format is:

COUNTRY
State -- City:
  pub name - address; (areacode)phone
    Type-of-entry   further notes
    Continued notes.

The reason for this format is that I have a (unstable) program to
extract listings in various ways.  My most common usage is to
ask for entries with 30 miles of a given city.  This helps when
you're in the SF Bay Area, which has lots of differently named cities
in close proximity, and a traveller to the area doesn't know which
California cities are really near SF.

John R. Mellby
(214)517-5370 <home>    (214)575-6125 <work>
Texas Instruments       Has no responsibility for this!
jmellby@iluvatar.dseg.ti.com
jmellby@skvax1.ti.com

Special Sources:
California Celebrator
Rocky Mountain Brews
Cascade
All About Beer
World Beer Review
gcw@garage.att.com; Geoffrey Woods
bcstec!tahoma!dgs1300@uunet.UU.NET;
   Don Scheidt, <Lots of corrections, some of my original Belgian notes were
   from an earlier message by Don.  He added and corrected a lot of NW USA
   and some Belgian entries, and added a lot of German notes>

John R. Mellby               Texas Instruments
jmellby@iluvatar.dseg.ti.com (214)517-5370 <h> (214)575-6125 <w>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Nov 92 12:42:44 CST
From: guy@mspe5.b11.ingr.com (Guy D. McConnell)
Subject: West Virginia brew?

    My brother will be relocating from Tallahassee to the Charleston, West
Virginia area around the end of this month.  Is there any brew news in the
area?  Brewpubs?  Micros?  Pubs with decent beer selections?  Gotta know what's
up there so I can properly prioritize a possible visit to him after he moves.

- --
Guy McConnell  guy@mspe5.b11.ingr.com  or  ...uunet!ingr!b11!mspe5!guy
                  "All I need is a pint a day"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Nov 92 13:12:03 EST
From: mm@workgroup.com (Mike Mahler)
Subject: Pilsner Recipes?


        Along with my previous note, does anyone have a good recipe
        to enhance that John Bull Master Pilsner kit I have?

        Michael

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 15:10 EST
From: STROUD <STROUD%GAIA@leia.polaroid.com>
Subject: Cooking the wheat in witbiers

Hi,

I've been out of town for a few days.

Several people have responded to my posting on Celis White beer and questioned
whether or not the wheat is precooked (gelatinized) before mashing.

I cannot say for sure.  Our hosts did not mention it, but on the other hand, no
one directly asked the question.  My impression is that no precooking takes
place;  it is, however, only an impression.

Steve

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Nov 92 13:10:11 EST
From: mm@workgroup.com (Mike Mahler)
Subject: John Bull Master (Pislner) Kit

        A local homebrew place was getting rid of some old kits that
        were laying around and he sold me the afore mentioned kit
        for $8.99 which I thought was a decent deal.

        This kit's interesting as it comes with yeast under the cap
        as most kits do but in addition it had a packet of finings and
        another packet of Kent hops.  Since I don't have the box it
        came in (they box the can for the "Master" kits and put the
        directions on the box.)

        Are thos finishing hops they gave me in the foil?  Anyone
        know?

        Michael


------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Nov 92 15:44:13 EST
From: Brian Michael Cors <corsbria@student.msu.edu>
Subject: Difference??



What is the difference between hop tea and hop pellets??  Thanks.

Bri


------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Nov 92 15:05:53 -0700
From: David Suda <suda@barley.Colorado.EDU>
Subject: Hops?

What's the HBD wisdom on hops???

Its time for me to buy hops for the next few months and I've been
thinking about what varieties to get. I have access to whole cones from
Hopunion: What's Brewing in Boulder has several varieties for $9.50/lb.
Some of the varieties I've tried, some I haven't, so I thought I'd ask the
HBD readers for their perceptions of the flavor and aroma of the possible
choices.

Here's a listing of some of the varieties with their usual alpha acid
range, my comments, and the comments from Hopunion data sheets:

Centennial:
  alpha: 9.5% - 11.5%
  my comments: nice cascade-like aroma, clean bitterness
  Hopunion: medium floral and citrus aroma

Chinook:
  alpha: 12% - 14%
  my comments: the pellets I've tried resulted in beer with little hop
               aroma and a harsh bitterness
  Hopunion: a high alpha hop with a highly acceptable aroma
            profile; mild to medium-heavy, spicy aroma

Galena:
  alpha: 12% -14%
  my comments: never tried it
  Hopunion: excellent high alpha hop with balanced bittering
            properties combined with an acceptable aroma profile; medium
            but pleasant hoppy aroma

Hallertauer:
  alpha: 3.5% - 5.5%
  my comments: US grown Hallertauers have an ok flavor and aroma, but it
               doesn't produce "That German Taste" in lagers
  Hopunion: traditional superior aroma hop; very mild, pleasant, and
            slightly flowery aroma

Liberty:
  alpha: 3% - 6%
  my comments: haven't tried them yet
  Hopunion: aroma variety with close similarities to imported German aroma
            varieties; still under evaluation but very positive comments
            from some major brewers; mild and pleasant aroma, quite fine

Mt. Hood:
  alpha: 5% - 8%
  my comments: smooth bitterness, mild flowery aroma; very good in a pale
               ale
  Hopunion: aroma variety with marked similarities to the German
            Hallertauer and Hersbrucker varieties; mild, pleasant, and
            clean aroma

Perle:
  alpha: 7% - 9.5%
  my comments: never tried it
  Hopunion: German type aroma properties combined with moderate bittering
            potential; pleasant and slightly spicy aroma

Tettnanger:
  alpha: 4% - 5%
  my comments: smooth bitterness, mild spicy aroma; very good in a German
               pils
  Hopunion: a true noble aroma variety; very fine and slightly spicy aroma

Willamette:
  alpha: 4.5% - 7%
  my comments: clean bitterness, not much flavor or aroma
  Hopunion: a quality aroma hop; mild and pleasant, slightly spicy aroma

I'd appreciate comments from other brewers who have experience with any of
these varieties, especially in the ones where my perceptions and Hopunion's
comments don't agree (Chinook, Hallertauer, and Willamette) and the ones I
haven't tried (Galena, Liberty, Perle).

Dave Suda
suda@barley.colorado.edu

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Nov 92 17:25:30 CST
From: billm@scorpio.sps.mot.com (Bill Moyer)
Subject: kegging v.s bottling, try2

Recently posted this to rec.crafts.brew,
with a whopping 2 responders. Maybe this
try will fare better... -- billm


I'd like to open a discussion with those of you
who use cornelius kegs for kegging homebrew. Our
brewing outfit (Driftwood Brewers, Driftwood Texas) has been
experimenting with split batches of homebrew in a variety of ale
styles comparing kegged vs. bottled homebrew for
taste differences. We've compared:

 1) a nut brown ale
 2) classic IPA
 3) czech (read -heavy- saaz) style ale (dry hopped)
 4) an english red bitter
 5) a lighter american style ale (rice solids as adjunct)
 6) an american style bock (but with ale yeast)

These have been extract/specialty malt brews
using primarily dried (EDME) yeast, and hop pellets,
not whole hops, with a range of aromatic hopping rates.
At least one batch utilized Wyeast liquid yeast.

Our experience has been that the kegged beer has been
very good to excellent until compared to the bottled versions
of the same batch. No comparison, bottled wins unanimously
with a crisper, cleaner, fuller taste. We have tried variations on
kegging techniques to eliminate some differences.

Forced CO2 priming and 3/4 cup corn sugar priming (with a 5lb sealing
chanrge of CO2 after purging) produced no discernable differences.

Half full vs. full to the top kegs were compared to eliminate
the effect of a difference in gas space above the liquid,
again no perceptible differences.

Different CO2 pressure tanks were tried to eliminate the possibility
of that as an effect.

Different stainless steel cornelius kegs have no influence,
all new seals installed in all (a debateable improvement in some minds).

Perplexed at this point, we are wondering if any other
homebrewers have benchmarked the flavor and overall characteristics
of bottled vs. kegged homebrew from the same batch, and perhaps
can share their opinions with us.

I sure enjoy the labor savings of kegging, but at thisN 26 bar point
am unwilling to continue given our experiences with the alternative
of bottling.

This experience is in direct opposition to my experience with
micro-brewed ales. If any of you have the chance to compare
Rouge Brewery's New Porter on tap in Ashland, Oregon with a fresh bottle
of the same brew (both excellent porters IMHO), the kegged wins
hands down, and not due to the age of the bottled version or
its handling. I'm sure this is also true of many other micro-brewed
beers. Shiner Bock in Shiner,Tx. is another example (although
not quite "micro").

Bill Moyer
Driftwood Brewers

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Nov 92 13:21
From: sherpa2!BMOORE.ELDEC%mailsrv2@sunup.West.Sun.COM (BMOORE)
Subject: EDME YEAST

Dan Wood notes in #1111 that EDME dried yeast is a fast fermenter.

I have used EDME quite a bit in the past few years and have developed the
following techniques to deal with it's "frisky" fermentative capabilities:

1) When using a carboy with a blow-off, do not fill beyond the point where
the carboy begins to taper down to the neck.  This as about 4.8 gal with a
standard carboy.  With a thick brew, fill a little less.  The EDME will
raise a Krausen to the top of the carboy and glue a bunch of brown gunk to
the top surface, but actual blow off will be minimal.  I have found my
brews have better head retention if "Blowoff" is minimised.

2) EDME responds well to minimal hydration: About 10 minutes before
pitching I throw 2 packs into a mason jar with 1/4 cup sterile water at
about 100 deg F.  As the wort starts coming out of the chiller (about 5
minutes later), I put another 1/4 cup in the jar, screw the lid on and
shake vigorously.  5 minutes later, when the carboy is about 1/3 full (my
chiller is slow), I pitch the slurry and shake the carboy like there's no
tomorrow.

I usually notice bubbles in the blowoff tube in about 2 hours and rack to
secondary in 36 hours (the fermentation is still quite active at this
point).

Hope this helps...
Cheers

Barry Moore                       "Umsonst ist allen Kunst,
ELDEC Corp                         Wenn ein Angel in den Zundloch prunst"
Bothell, Washington

(sherpa2!bmoore@sunup.west.sun.com)


------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Nov 92 16:48:57 PST
From: Pat Lasswell <patl@microsoft.com>
Subject: Real Ale from a Carboy(?)

I have an idea, and I thought I would bounce it off y'all before I tried it:

The apparatus:

In the crude ASCII drawing below, there are two carboys, each with a BrewCap
attached.  The top one, inverted, contains the beer; the bottom one is the
CO2 reservoir.  The top carboy has the usual BrewCap installation, with a
long pipe extending to the top of the carboy to allow gas to escape and also
with the usual beer/crud output. (Disclaimer: I have never used a BrewCap,
so my description of the "usual installation" is surmised from reading the
HBD.)  The gas output of the top carboy is connected to one of the openings
in the bottom carboy's cap.  The other opening in the bottom cap is connected
to a copper pipe that runs first up and into and then down a 10' column of
water to its bottom.

Here's how it works:

When the beer is in primary fermentation, the level of water in the column
is low, about 6", allowing various undesirable yeast emissions to escape.
After primary, all of the crud is drained from the bottom of the beer, and
the column is filled up to the top with water.  This would carbonate the beer
to just below 5psi.  Once accomplished, carbonated beer could be drawn from
the top carboy.  The bottom carboy would act as a C02 reservoir, so that the
beer would not stale as the carboy emptied of beer and filled with gas.
Clearly, water would be drawn from the column into the lower carboy.  In
order to maintain carbonation, the level of water in the column would have to
be maintained as well.  Since the bottom carboy originally contained 5
gallons of gas, the water should never enter the top carboy unless the
system cools substantially.

Potential problems/Uncertainties:

- -- Will the CO2 draining from the top carboy mix with the gas in the bottom
carboy, rather than sinking to the bottom and filling the carboy with CO2?
What is the volume of CO2 released from 5 gallons of fermenting beer?
(Assume OG 1.040, FG 1.012)  [That is, if the gasses mix, is the volume of
CO2 so much greater that it makes no difference whether they mix or not?]

- -- Can a carboy hold 5psi without bursting?  (If anybody has the equipment
to test the bursting pressure of a carboy, I'll mail the cost of a carboy
just to know the answer.)

- -- Can the BrewCaps be kept on the carboy and sealed against 5psi?

- -- If the top carboy spewed gunk into the bottom carboy, it would need to be
sanitary, lest mold develop and spores enter the beer while one was drawing
a pint.  What would be the best way to accomplish this? An Idophor rinse
left to dry?  (Campden tablets and bleach would have their active
ingredients flushed away by fermentation.)  The carboy would have to stay
sanitary, even when water was being drawn into it from the column.  Bleach
would be very bad here, as the chlorine would be sucked into the beer
carboy; again iodine seems the proper choice.  Are there any other
persistent, non gaseous sterilizing agents?

- -- Why not just get Cornelius or Firestone kegs and be done with it?  [Back
off man -- I'm a scientist! -- NOT; just curiosity....]  It would be
cheaper than a kegging set-up (probably < $50) and less work than
bottling, though
cleaning the system may be difficult -- I haven't worked it in to the design
yet.

- -- If this is not an original idea, has anybody tried it? ...not tried it
for what reason?  ...tried it and had problems?



  /--------\
  |        | <-- Copper Tubing
| | |      |
| | |      |
| | |      |    -----
| | |      |   |  |  |
| | |      |   |  |  |
| | |      |   |  |  |
| | |      |   |  |  |
| | |      |   |  |  | <--- 5 Gallon Carboy
| | |      |    \ | /
| | |      |     \|/
| | |      |      B----\      B == BrewCap
| | |      |      |    |
| | |      \----- B    |  r
| | |            /"\   \--o  <-- Beer output
| | |           /   \     '
| | |          |     |
| | |          |     |
| | |          |     | <--- 5 Gallon Carboy
| | | <--\     |     |
|   |    |     |     |
- -----    |      -----
         |
         \-- Water Column



???
Pat Lasswell


------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Nov 92 17:20 CST
From: arf@ddsw1.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)
Subject: Efficiency vs Winners


 To: Homebrew Digest
 Fm: Jack Schmidling

 Now that we are all experts on extract efficiency, I thought it would be
 usefull to put our new found wisdom into proper perspective.

 The current issue of Zymurgy lists the winners of the 1992 national
 competition along with the winning recipes.  There is enough data in the
 article to calculate the extract efficiency of each of the winners.  Not only
 is it obvious that high extract efficiency does not make winning beer but a
 case might just be made for exactly the opposite position.

 I ran the published data on the all grain beers through my calculator and
 here is what I found.  The lowest was 17 pts/lb/gal and the highest was 28.
 The arithmetic average was 23 and the actual numbers were: 17, 20, 21, 23,
 23, 23, 25, 25, 26, 26 and 28.  What is also interesting is that the highest
 (28) was about 60% wheat.

 So, the next time the gurus make derogatory remarks about your "poor" yield,
 just tell them you're working on a winner.

 js

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Nov 92 14:42:18 EST
From: mm@workgroup.com (Mike Mahler)
Subject: What would you call this ale?

        Last night I stopped at the homebrew store to get some
        supplies along with the John Bull kit I mentioned before.
        I was going to do a recipe that so far has been my best,
        in my opinion, an Amber Oktoberfest.

        The recipe calls for:

        6.6lbs Bierkeller Amber malt
        4oz. toasted pale malt
        3oz. roasted barley
        2oz. crystal malt
        Hallertau
        Tetnanger
        Yeast from Bierkeller kit.


        Thing is, I was working from memory at the store and wound
        up with Norther Brewer pellets (1oz), Hallertauer Leaf plugs
        and no pale malt to toast.

        So I checked Papazzian's chart and saw that I had ingredients
        that were closest to an Alt so I used what I had:


        6.6 lbs Amber (Irek's Bavarian instead of Bierkeller that was
                        called for in the recipe)
        1/2 lb cyrstal malt
        1/3 lb chocolate malt
        2 oz. Hallertau (2.9% alpha)
        1 oz. Northern brewer (6.0% pellets)
        Whitebread Ale Yeast


        What would this beer be called?  If it's any good, I'll let ya
        know...



------------------------------


End of HOMEBREW Digest #1012, 11/13/92
*************************************
-------