HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Tue, 6 Oct 1992 09:49:21 EDT
From:         Bernice Tennant <U1A9A@WVNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: males vs females and God

Ian,

If a woman has Jesus in her heart, she would not be (in love) with him.
If she desires to love Jesus but doesn't go about following the teachings of
Jesus, then she could fall in love with Jesus because she wouldn't know him.
This is hard for me for I am not well spoken, but when we have the Spirit of
Christ in our hearts, we do not err in these feelings of love for Christ as
God.  We know the difference.  He would not lead us astray.  Satan may try,
to make us feel think of Christ in a romantic context but Christ sets us
right when we seek his word.  We must not think in the ways of the world.  We
must think in spiritual ways.
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Mon, 28 Sep 1992 22:49:06 EDT
From:         MKLINE%VDH.BITNET@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU
Subject:      Something on Rush

Subject: Something on Rush

    I was posted by a friend that said there was little on what Rush
thinks. I found this tiny portion that talks about what he believes. It's
not much, but anyhow....

------------------------------------------------------------------------
    What makes Limbaugh's show work? KFI program director David Hall
offers some insight: "Rush is very smart and very controversial. He is
very entertaining and emotionally and intellectually stimulating.
Whatever your ideas, whatever your politics, Rush challenges you to
think."

    A Rush "dittohead" suggests that the commentator's appeal is similar
in some ways to the plain-spoken, heartfelt patriotism of another
one-time radio announcer, Ronald Reagan.

    There are similarities. "You should thank God for making you an
American," Limbaugh effuses with the evangelical fervor of a tent
revivalist, "and rather than feel guilty about it, as some do, you should
help to spread our ideals to the rest of the world."

    Several years ago, while perfecting his craft at Sacramento station
KFBK, Limbaugh put together his now-famous "35 Undeniable Truths of
Life," which -- though as a complete document is somewhat outdated --
synthesizes his philosophy of life and his irreverent view of it. The
sober and reflective side of Rush is reflected in No. 16: "The collective
knowledge and wisdom of seasoned citizens is the most valuable, yet
untapped, resource our young people have." The unpredictable and
lighthearted side of Rush is evident in No. 17: "The greatest football
team in the history of civilization was the Pittsburgh Steelers of 1975
through 1980."

    To get better understanding of the world of Limbaugh, take a look at
some other "undeniable truths of life."

    o - Regardless of the pain in our memories, nostalgia only reminds us
of the good times in our past.

    o - There is a God.

    o - Abortion is wrong.

    o - Morality is not defined by individual choice.

    o - Evolution cannot explain creation.

    Disarmingly clear and upbeat thoughts, especially for someone high up
in an entertainment/media industry typified by confusion, doubt, and
cynicism.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Well, I said it wasn't much, but it does give a little bit, very
little, almost invisible portion of what he thinks.

Maks.
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Tue, 29 Sep 1992 14:40:53 -0700
From:         "(MARK DRAKE)" <DRAKE@ASUCHM.LA.ASU.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Why Did Jesus Die?

>Dear Mark ;
>
>Question : "If the wages of sin is death and Christians die like other
>humans do, are Christians PAYING for their sins or even Adam's sin STILL?"
>
Jesse,
	This is the second response directed to me concerning a
question I'm not asking nor am I interested in.  I don't think you are
understanding what I am saying.

>How do Christians die in light of that verse in Romans 3?
>
>Jesse Carnes

I'm sorry, but you'll have to spell things out.  I see no relevence in
Romans 3 to your question.

	I think you belive that I believe something that I don't
believe.  That has happend often in the past.  I suggest you ask
sufficient questions to find out what I believe on an issue before
starting to press your point as though you are opposing my beliefs.



	I'll answer your question with a question.  Why is it that
even though God said "you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge
of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die," they
did not die anytime soon?  Then he says "he [man] must not be allowed
to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and
live forever." Does that mean that he would not otherwise live
forever?

Consider: is there a difference between physical and spiritual death?

Also, I think you misunderstand what wages are.  Wages are something
earned.  So if we sin, we don't pay for our sin with death, but earn
death.

Mark
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Tue, 29 Sep 1992 13:36:02 -0400
From:         Eric James Ewanco <ewanco@MLO.DEC.COM>
Subject:      Re: Purgatory: Justice or Works?

Excerpts from christia: 29-Sep-92 Re: Purgatory: Justice or W.. Tom
Brewer@LSUVM.BITNET (565)

> > Christ died for all our sins.  Nobody said there were venial sins
> > "not forgiven."  There may be venial sins for which sufficient penance
> > has not yet been done, but penance comes only _after_ forgiveness.
> > Penance does _not_ bring about forgiveness.

> Christ died for all our sins?????? Then STOP! No more! That's it! There is
> no need for Purgatory! GOOD GRIEF! These are your own words! Purgatory
> obviously says Christ's death is not enough. Somethin must be added to His
> attonement. If this is not works, then I'm, err uh, I'm ahhh.....

NO -- you obviously are totally missing the point.  _NOTHING_ is being
added to the atonement of Jesus Christ.  Purgatory has nothing to do
with soteriology!  It has to do with SANCTIFICATION.

Again, and again, I will point out:  Scripture makes it clear that
though we are forgiven of our sins, we must STILL suffer for them.  We
reap what we sow, we will be repaid according to our works, forgiveness
or no! David was forgiven by God, but his son still died.  Paul said
that he fills up in his own flesh what is lacking in the sufferings of
Christ.  Scripture says that "love covers over a multitude of sins."
This is all Scriptural.

Anyone who believes that we can sin with impunity and suffer no damage
once we repent (or in the case of some, suffer no damage at all even if
we don't repent) has missed some parts of Scripture, most notably the
Gospels.

Eric

/===========================================================================\
| Eric Ewanco - Software Engineer   For the rash and outrageous opinions ex-|
| Digital Equipment, Maynard MA     pressed herein I alone am responsible;  |
| ewanco@kalvin.enet.dec.com        they do not belong to DIGITAL(TM).      |
\==========================- 2 Th 2:15 -====================================/
    "...[T]he greatest and most ancient Church known to all, founded and
    organized at Rome by [] Peter and Paul, [is] that Church which has the
    tradition and faith which comes down to us after having been announced
    to men by the Apostles.  For with this Church, because of its superior
    origin, all Churches must agree ...  and it is in her that the
    faithful everywhere have maintained the Apostolic tradition."
       -- St. Irenaeus, Against Heresies, c. 180 A.D., 3,3,3.
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Sat, 26 Sep 1992 01:36:21 EDT
From:         JEK@NIHCU.BITNET
Subject:      agreeing with a list of beliefs

Dan Graham writes:

 > I do not suppose that I can ever agree with any list of
 > Christian beliefs that are a common denominator.  I don't think
 > I will ever agree in any way with most of what is on any common
 > ground document, unless I write it. [grin]

Surely when someone says, "I agree with this list of statements," he
is not saying, "This list includes every statement that I believe to
be true," or even, "This list includes every statement that I
believe to be both true and important." He is simply saying, "This
list contains no statement that I believe to be false."

Thus, for example, consider the simple statement, "I believe that
God, the Sovereign Creator of the World, took human nature upon
himself in the person of Jesus of Nazareth, and I acknowledge Jesus
as my Lord, God, and Savior."

Clearly, this statement leaves a lot out. It is not a complete
statement of the beliefs of Dan or Tom or Jesse, for it says nothing
about Predestination or Election. It is not a complete statement of
the beliefs of Marty or Memo or Steve (Creps), for it says nothing
about the Pope. (You will also notice that it does not mention the
Church, or the Sacraments, or the Scriptures, or sin, or heaven or
hell.)  But it is a statemet that Roman Catholics and Calvinists
can agree on, as long as it is not followed by: "And there are no
other Christian doctrines worth bothering with."

 Yours,
 James Kiefer
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Wed, 30 Sep 1992 02:35:05 EST
From:         Kerry Stephenson <KSTE@PURCCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Bye for now

Fellow CHRISTIAns:

In order to devote enough time to the small group study as it begins,
I am setting no-mail.

If you want to contact me, email to my address.

Don't worry, though.  I'll be back.

Love INC,

--Kerry (KSTE@PURCCVM)

PS:  BTW, today I am 3 years old.  Praise God, for His grace is truly
     amazing!  (And *that's* my favorite song!)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
From: spk@aber.ac.uk (Stephen Peter Kingston)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: Why Did Jesus Die?
Date: 28 Sep 92 16:01:14 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Dept., University of Wales at Aberystwyth

Jesse Carnes writes:
> 
> WHY die for the unatonable?
> Why substitute for the unsavable?
> Does God do the superfluous??

" For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to 
nothing the understanding of the prudent."

"But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto
the Greeks foolishness;"

Now you will at once wish to respond to me that the context of these verses is
not relevent to the limted atonement. Fair enough, but  what I am saying is 
this: 

If we started building our doctrine on logic alone then we will become unstuck. 
Our doctrine will be superficial and no better then the philosophies of the 
Greeks (I might mention Thomism at this point, but then again I have no real
desire to enter into that debate).

Let us be true to our beliefs and start with scripture. Does scripture teach 
that Christ died only for the elect? that he substituted only for the saveable?

If the bible teaches that Christ died even for those who would  reject him then
the answers to your questions are yes, yes and "why do you call the wisdom of 
God  superfluous".

Stephen
-- 
Gweleis i rac neb nym gweles pop annwyl. ef diwyl yneges. Gweleis i pasc.
(I saw the one above all men,  he saw me;  he, the beloved of his people,
who fulfills his mission. I saw Easter.) "Yspeil Taliesin" ---Taliesin---
spk@uk.ac.aber --- spk%uk.ac.aber@nsfnet-relay.ac.uk --- Stephen Kingston
From: kilroy@gboro.glassboro.edu (Dr Nancy's Sweetie)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: Lost tribes of Israel
Summary: The Worldwide Church of God fits this description.
Keywords: Britain, Ephraim, Manessah, America, Tribes, `Woof!'
Date: 3 Oct 92 16:47:50 GMT
Organization: Rowan College of New Jersey
Disclaimer: My dog Brandy has never been to England.


Angela Zimmerman asks about

> ... a religion that thought something to the effect that the lost tribes
> of Israel ended up in England and that Jesus was British?

This is a variation on a theory adhered to by so-called "British Israelites".
Some believe that NT events happened in what is now England, others believe
that NT events happened in Palestine.  (There's never an established orthodoxy
when dealing with these fringe theories.  8-)

They are not a particular denomination, but members can be found in many
different kinds of churches.  Herbert W Armstrong made the "Jesus was in the
Middle East but most of Israel ended up in England" theory a central feature
of his own church, the WorldWide Church of God.  As evidence, he offers that
the word `Saxons' sounds like "Isaac's Sons".  I find this to be one of the
dumbest things I've ever heard -- even if we grant `Isaac' as a modification
of `Yishaq', `sons' is an English word (and doesn't sound at all like `ben',
the Hebrew equivalent), and it seems unlikely that a bunch of Israelites would
invent English just so they could call themselves `Saxons'.

[ English spellings of Hebrew words is approximate. ]


> Since this isn't exactly a topic about Christianity, a private reply would
> be greatly appreciated.

Well, I'm not so sure.  Mr Armstrong argues that since modern Americans and
Britons are all descended from Israelites, we are all part of the OT covenant
made between God and Israel.  If so, that could have implications for
practical Christian living.  In particular, would this have an effect on
whether Christians should obey OT laws?  Some discussion on this topic might
be of interest.


I happen to think that British Israelites are off in space, but far be it from
me to tell you not to read an argument on a topic you find interesting.  To
get a copy of Herbert Armstrong's book "The United States and Great Britain in
Prophecy", you can call the WorldWide Church of God at their toll-free number
(which I don't remember but you can probably get it from directory assistance
at 1-800-555-1212).  Walter Martin takes a few pages in his book _The Kingdom
of the Cults_ to address British Israelites, which you might also like to see.
(Note: I do not agree with everything Dr Martin says.)

The book from the WWCG will be free, and you'll also get a free one-year
subscription to their magazine, "The Plain Truth".  The latter serves as an
entertaining and free sample of numerous logical fallacies, so if you like to
criticise bad thinking this is a deal you shouldn't pass up.


Darren F Provine / kilroy@gboro.glassboro.edu
"I believe time may show this to be the most important book written in almost
 1900 years." -- Herbert W Armstrong's review of his own _Mystery of the Ages_
From: wdr@castle.ed.ac.uk (D Rankin)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: T.F. Torrance
Summary: What do you think of T.F. Torrance?
Keywords: Torrance, dogmatics, theology, systematic theology
Date: 27 Sep 92 22:43:12 GMT
Distribution: bit.listserv.christia
Organization: Edinburgh University

I am interested in sampling opinion on Scottish theologian T.F.
Torrance.  My main interest is to learn whether his name is widely
recognized among readers of this user group.  If you are from a
non-Enlish speaking country I am especially interested in a response
from you, if you know of or have read any of Torrance's 600 books and
articles.  Also, if you want to give a brief reaction to Torrance's
theology, I'd also be interested.  If you do, however, please state you
own denominational affiliation, if any.

Thank you for helping with my doctoral research!

---Duncan Rankin
---e-mail: wdr@castle.ed.ac.uk
---Edinburgh, Scotland
From: A16905@ITESO.BITNET
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: Help I am confuddled....
Date: 5 Oct 92 16:23:37 GMT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU

Dave,

I Cor 8:8  Read it.

Shalom,
Memo.
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
From: 75furlong@cua.edu
Subject: Re: The Death Penalty
Organization: The Catholic University of America
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 01:15:33 GMT

Just a quote I saw on a button once:

"Why do we kill people who kill people to show the killing people is wrong?"

-Alison
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Mon, 28 Sep 1992 13:17:40 CDT
From:         Jesse Carnes <NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Why did Christ die?

Dear Claude ;

Christ had to be human to atone for sins.  Hebrews makes this plain.
However He had to die in order to propitiate the wrath of the Father
(see Romans 5).

Obviously, the eternal Son of God could not die in His Spiritual essence
because DIETY cannot die by definition.
However, Jesus' Human body DID die ... else was He REALLY human??


Jesse Carnes
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Tue, 29 Sep 1992 11:28:35 CST
From:         A16905@ITESO.BITNET
Subject: Satan Who is this guy ?

Three posible answers:

A) A spiritual being that tries to drive me out of the Way, the Truth and
   the Life.

B) Same as A) but this being is 'personal'.

C) Same as B) but this personal being is also totaly diverse fron human
   nature, this is, it is not a component of our own human nature.

What is your answer ?  How strong is it (Certianly, Probable, Mostly sure,
etc) ?

Thanks for any answers.

Shalom,
Memo.
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From: BKCOBB@LIFE.UAMS.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: That P' word again
Date: 6 Oct 92 01:32:28 GMT
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>On this "P" word thing :  Despite that some allege that Romans 9 speaks of
>Nations rather than people, I believe exegetically what begins to appear from
>the overall polemic by Paul is that Salvation is by freely given and undeserved
>kindness of God ... and sometimes carries an alias known as Grace.
>It appeared as if an entire Nation (Israel)was NOT going to make it -- with
>God, that is -- and Paul anticipated the objection that some might harbour
>that "... mayby God's Word had FAILED to achieve its ends."
>But, Paul, anticipating all of this, points out that Salvation is NOT by
>Ethnic/Religious lineage, but by a PROMISE according to ALL who are sons
>of Abraham by way of FAITH in God's Word.

None of the examples that Paul gives in this chapter
deal with election to salvation.  Rather, they deal with God choosing people
to fulfill some plan.  And despite what you say the election is about
nations... the nation of Israel vs the "people who are not my people".

[stuff deleted ...]

>Now, the other side of this is found elsewhere.  Jesus states that He will
>not cast out anyone who will come to Him with a broken and contrite heart.
>Such a person is never cast out, but received.

I thought election meant that God chooses and man can do nothing about it.
Now you are saying that Jesus will not cast anyone out who comes to him.
Which is it?  It can't be both.

>Nevertheless, the real idea of Romans 9 is that we can do NOTHING to GET
>God to save us ... it is by sheer Grace.  However, as I said above, God
>is gracious to all who are ENABLED to come to Him by the Father.

But God enables all.  God is not willing that any should
perish but that all should come to repentance.  I know you probably
think that the "all" is to be interpreted figuratively, but that's not
what it says. It says that it is God's WILL that ALL should come to
repentance.

>Does any person need to be saved from the power of sin??  Go to God and
>ask for Sovereign mercy from Him who is NEVER OBLIGATED to save, but is
>gracious to all who come to Him honestly seeking Jesus Christ as their
>sin substitute and propitiation and righteousness.

If God chooses in the absolute way meant by TULIP calvinism than it is
meaningless to talk about going to God or seeking Jesus Christ.



Brian
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Date:         Wed, 30 Sep 1992 10:57:23 -0700
From:         jstahley@QUALCOMM.COM
Subject:      REMOVE FROM LIST

PLEASE REMOVE ME FROM THE LIST.

THANKS,
                                JSTAHLEY@ATHENA.QUALCOMM.COM

                                RECEIVING INSPECTION DEPARTMENT
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Fri, 2 Oct 1992 14:51:12 EDT
From:         "MRATCLIFF" <SCICIRC@UGA.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Lordship Salvation

David,
    I like Harvest (especially their older stuff), Sandi Patti, Michael Card, a
nd Carmen is always fun to listen to.  From your examples, maybe Russ Taff woul
d be more your speed.

Marissa Ratcliff                Science Library
University of GA                Circulation Dept.
Athens, GA
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Thu, 1 Oct 1992 11:31:05 EDT
From:         Bernice Tennant <U1A9A@WVNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: God is no respector of Persons

But... some will be rewarded more than others in heaven.  Better to build up
treasures in heaven...  Will there be any stars in my crown?
From: gjm11@cus.cam.ac.uk (G.J. McCaughan)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: When we meet God face to face
Date: 6 Oct 92 02:43:30 GMT
Organization: U of Cambridge, England

There have been a couple of posts debating how we will (or ought to) react
when we finally meet with God in all his glory, taking the line that we will
have nothing to be ashamed or worried about (because of the Atonement).

Well, yes, sort of. I'm reminded of the start of Revelation. First "I fell at
his feet as one dead"; then "Fear not...". If you expect meeting God to be a
nice, cosy experience, all love and sweetness and light, you're not quite
right: there'll be no shortage of love, or sweetness, or light, but you'll
be utterly terrified; and quite right too. Only then, when you realise just
who it is you're dealing with, will the importance of what Jesus did on that
cross really hit you in full. And *then* you will be happy.

(Erm, I don't mean to suggest that it'll be any different for me. I just
started using the word "you" and there didn't seem to be a right place to
change.)

I think many Christians (again, myself included) are in urgent need of a deeper
sense of the majesty and glory of God, in addition to their understanding of 
his love. Remember the start of Isaiah 6.

-- 
Gareth McCaughan     Dept. of Pure Mathematics & Mathematical Statistics,
gjm11@cus.cam.ac.uk  Cambridge University, England.    [Research student]
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Mon, 28 Sep 1992 12:44:03 CDT
From:         Tom Brewer <NOTTMB@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Purgatory: Justice or Works?

Eric:

I would recommend you read Dan's most recent post on Christ's work as explained
in Hebrews.
Concerning your struggle: Your experience neither confirms nor denies the
authoritative Word of God.
I would suggest you reread Romans 5-8. Pay close attention to how the
believer has been reconciled to God, restored to the right relationship lost
by the first Adam in the Garden. Cross reference this with Gal 3 to see how
the believer has also been redeemed from the law and its curse.
The believer's struggle with sin in this life (this side of the grave) is
dealt with by Paul in Romans 7.

All I can say here is I hope to write more later. But if Paul can be trusted,
then believers have been saved from the wrath and anger of God. There is no
further "purification" required for the believer. Christ has made the
believer suitable for entrance into heaven. When the believer dies, he will
be as holy then as he can ever be because of the work of Christ. The believer
will not need to be deep fried, broiled, or whatever to be purified. Christ
has redeemed the believer from all curses.
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