From: steven@spxtech.qc.ca (Steve Potter)
Newsgroups: can.politics
Subject: Re: Access to English schools
Date: 4 Sep 92 12:05:17 GMT
Organization: Securiplex Technologies Inc., Montreal, Canada
X-Bytes: 8134

From article <Bu1AuE.94G@ireq.hydro.qc.ca>, by beaurega@ireq.hydro.qc.ca (Denis Beauregard):
> In article <1992Sep3.144559.26027@spxtech.qc.ca> steven@spxtech.qc.ca (Steve Potter) writes:
>>From article <Bu0DH7.4wI@ireq.hydro.qc.ca>, by beaurega@ireq.hydro.qc.ca (Denis Beauregard):
>>> In article <1992Sep2.215130.12179@spxtech.qc.ca> steven@spxtech.qc.ca (Steve Potter) writes:
>>>>From article <BtywH3.8o@ireq.hydro.qc.ca>, by beaurega@ireq.hydro.qc.ca (Denis Beauregard):
>>>>>
>>>>> There is some trouble at the level of language.  Immigrant anglophones
>>>>> may feel discriminated in regards of natives anglophones, but since they
>>>>> choosed to come here, then they should not complain (i.e. they choosed
>>>>> their situation).
>>>>
>>>>NO! They did not! - They are not informed of the situation here before
>>>>they come!
>>>>
>>> 
>>> Why don't you tell us WHY they are not informed?
>>> 
>>
>>A group of parents whose children are denied access to English schools
>>recently met with Quebec's Immigration Minister, Monique Gagnon-Tremblay.
>>
>>We asked Mrs. Gagnon-Tremblay just exactly that question.
>>
>>She did not have an answer but gave a vague assurance that steps would be
>>taken ...
> 
> WHy don't you answer my question?  WHY DON'T YOU TELL US WHY THEY
> ARE NOT INFORMED BEFORE THEY COME? >
> 

I don't posses any mystical or psychic powers, Denis. I am not capable of
reading the minds of Quebec immigration department officials.

How can I possibly say why immigrants are not properly informed of the
situation in Quebec before they come here?

If I knew the answer I would gladly post it.

Perhaps you could research it and get back to us all on that one, Denis.

>>>>> I think what hurts most the anglophones are the fact that now a lot
>>>>> of them will have to learn French to keep social status.
>>>>
>>>>How does this hurt them?
>>> 
>>> Because changing from a privileged status to a non-privileged status.
>>> 
>>
>>If I understand what Denis appears to be saying:
>>
>>The social status of anglophones who learn French changes from privileged
>>to non-privileged.
>>
>>Let's try it another way:
>>
>>Anglophones who learn French are hurt because, by doing so, their social
>>status changes from privileged to non-privileged.
>>
>>What a strange perspective.
>>
>>Maybe I misunderstood.
> 
> Perhaps, you don't want to understand?

Another puzzle?

I was saying that I didn't see how an anglophone is hurt by learning
French (a position I expected you to agree with). 

Your seem to be implying that it is socially unacceptable for anglophones
to learn French (or how would their social status suffer?). This is not
true at all.

It also runs counter to much of what you have been complaining about.

Another poster has indicated his belief that you have a very limited
field of vision. If you think anglophones find it socially unacceptable
to learn French, I fail to understand why you learned English. Unless you
were trying to say that it is socially acceptable for francophones to
learn English. What a dilemma that must have been.

Another puzzle.

>>
>>>>
>>>>> .... school in French for immigrants
>>>>> results of a choice by the same immigrants.
>>>>
>>>>NO! It is not a choice!
>>> 
>>> Yes, it is a choice.  Your choice of Quebec among the complete
>>> earth as places to immigrate.
>>> 
>>
>>Well, in that sense you are right.
>>
>>I suppose the same logic might persuade anglo-phobic francophiles in
>>Canada that they might be happier in France?
> 
> SO, MY ANCESTERS ARE HERE FOR 300 YEARS.  YOU ARE HERE FROM 10 YEARS.
> AND ***I*** MUST LEAVE BECAUSE YOU DON'T LIKE OUR LAWS?????
> YOU ARE KIDDING, AS USUAL!!!!!

Everyone can live somewhere else - so what?

>>
>>> If some spanish thought all the south america is spanish speaking and
>>> immigrate to Brasil, will he have to blame the brasil for not
>>> allowing his child to go to spanish school?  No.  He shall blame
>>> himself for not being better informed, or he shall blame those who
>>> informed him.
>>> 
>>
>>Are public Spanish schools available in Brazil?
>>
>>Is Spanish an official language in Brazil?
> 
> Quebec official language is French.  period.  We don't have to 
> give services in English to immigrants because there are 9 other provinces
> where they can get what they want.

Quebec may declare its official language to be swahili.

Quebec is still a province in Canada.

Quebec is de facto bilingual (at least).

English public schools are provided here that should be available to 
anyone that wants them.

>>
>>I believed Quebec had a thriving English community before I came here.
>>
>>I wouldn't have come if the Referendum had not indicated that the
>>people of Quebec had chosen to remain a part of Canada. (That was the
>>interpretation given on British TV at the time)
> 
> You were cheated.  I apologize for pour coverage by british media.
> But it is not the problem of Quebec.  Or at least Quebec is not
> responsible if british media is lying. 

The 1980 referendum did not indicate that the people of Quebec had
chosen to remain a part of Canada?

OK, let's hear it: how did Denis interpret the 1980 referendum at the
time?

What is the consensus on this one? (Let's have a different thread)

>>
>>I believed Montreal was very cosmopolitain with the strongest cultures
>>being French and English.
>>
>>I was inteviewed in English and all the correspondence I received was
>>in English or was in English and French.
>>
> 
> [stuff deleted]
> 
> YOU COME HERE FREELY.  PLEASE SOME COMPLAINING ABOUT OUR LAWS!  

It is my duty as a citizen to complain about a law I consider to be
unjust, as it is yours.

>>
>>> It is the responsability of an
>>> immigrant to learn something about where he is emigrating.  And if he
>>> is lied, he should blame those who lied, not things about which the
>>> other person lied.
>>> 
>>
>>Attempting to place the blame is not very productive. 
> 
> Then, why are you blaming francophones of fighting for survival of their
> language?
> 

I'm not.

>>
>>The situation exists and must be dealt with.
>>
>>Let me put it simply:-
>>
>>There is an English community here with its own school system.
>>
>>I am English.
> 
> Go back to your land if you want an absolute respect of your englishness.
> 

Why don't you go to France? :-)

>>
>>I want to be accepted as English and have my children educated in their
>>own language schools.
>>
>>I learned French (not perfectly) at school.
> 
> And you use it twice a year? 

I might be more interested in improving my French language skills (that was
my intent when I came here) if I were accepted as a fully legitimate member
of my own English community.

>>
>>I want my children to learn French at school too.
> 
> Why protesting in that case?

Don't you read?

I want them in an English school where, IMHO, they belong.

They can learn French in an immersion program.

Why do I protest?

Because I am not accepted as a fully legitimate member of my own
linguistic community; I do not have access to public services that
are available to other people; .......

>>
>>I like Montreal. It is the most European city in North America and I
>>don't want to live anywhere else on the continent.
>>
>>I DO NOT understand why people like Denis can not accomodate us.
>>People like us make up less than 1 percent of the Quebec population.
>>
> I DO NOT understand why I continue to answer to your posting.
> You learn French as a second language and are unable to use it
> to communicate and you continue to pretend learning French as a
> second language is as good as first language.

No I don't! - It doesn't have to be as good!

> Sorry Steve.  This is the last time I answer to your posting.
> I will check the readnews manual for how to include a poster name
> in the kill file.  So long.

One down, three to go? :-)

-- 
  ///==================================================================\\\
  ||| Steve Potter:         steven%spxtech@CAM.ORG                     |||
  ||| Expertise/Experience: Computer Systems Engineering / Real Ale /  |||
  |||                       Politics in Education in Quebec            |||