From: ajw@cbnews.cb.att.com (andrew.j.whitman)
Subject: Re: What do you do when....
Organization: AT&T
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 15:57:00 GMT

Just an honest disagreement here, Mark.  I respect the fact that you've
felt convicted in this area, and I applaud the fact that you've followed
through on your convictions and made some hard choices in following the
Lord.  What I'm going to say is in no way meant to detract from that.  
But I *do* disagree with some of your basic premises, and I'll try to
explain why.

In article <1eatb8INNaot@transfer.stratus.com> markc@eomer.hw.stratus.com (Mark Christensen) writes:
>In article <97861@netnews.upenn.edu> crawford@ben.dev.upenn.edu (Lauren L. Crawford) writes:

>>I would echo this question.  You've let us know why you find all rock music
>>unacceptable; what music would be acceptable to you as reflecting Christian
>>values?
>
>This isn't an issue of "reflecting Christian values".  Please, I thought
>I was clear in some of my previous postings about this but I guess not.
>There are several principles I have tried to focus on, not the least of
>which has been one's testimony.  Another is that of embracing the same
>music as the world at large has.  

Certainly we are to be concerned with our testimonies.  And we should
certainly avoid even the appearance of evil.  But there are those of  
us who believe that rock music is *not* inherently evil.  Like any
other music it can be used for good purposes or for bad purposes.
No one here would disagree with you that some rock music is indeed
used for ungodly purposes.  But lots of things that are in themselves
morally neutral are also used for ungodly purposes.  That doesn't
mean that I should stop using steak knives because some deranged souls
have used them to murder others.  And it doesn't mean that Christians
shouldn't listen to rock 'n roll because some musicians have used it
to promote ungodly behavior and beliefs.  

It does require us to think about and carefully evaluate what we 
hear, though.  And that seems entirely consistent to me with what
I see in the Bible.  

>>>Rock music is, indeed, music that the world enjoys, encompasses, propogates,
>>>and uses for many purposes...in many cases to promote Satanism, anti-
>>>Christian behavior, sexual immorality, homosexuality, murder and other
>>>violence, etc.  This music is accepted by the world, and is thus, worldly.

"Accepted by the world" does not automatically imply "worldly."  The first
phrase is a synonym for "popular."  The second term, "worldly," implies
a moral system that is set in opposition to God.  They are not the same.
In some cases there will be a connection.  In other cases (Michael W.
Smith, Amy Grant) there will be no connection at all.  

I would agree with you that it's probably a bad idea for Christians to
listen to music that promotes Satanism, anti-Christian behavior, sexual
immorality, homosexuality, and murder.  I try not to listen to that 
stuff myself.  And you know what?  I *still* have managed to find
a couple thousand rock 'n roll albums, most of them performed by
non-Christians, that I can listen to and enjoy in good conscience.
In some of these albums I find values and attitudes that I disagree
with as a Christian.  So you know what I do?  I disagree with them,
and I keep on listening.  I think to myself, "Clever lyrics, 
wonderful musical talent, catchy melody - and bad message."  I do
the same types of things with books, movies, and television programs.

A lot of the Christian life involves discernment.  When I relate to
people I try to find things that I like about them.  It's usually
not all that hard.  I also try to be aware of their basic attitudes
and values, and how those might be expressed in immoral behavior.
And I try to avoid those things in my own life.  The Lord seems to
honor such an approach.  Why should a different approach be needed
or even desirable for entertainment?

>>Well, couldn't this argument also be applied to folk music?  Or country? 
>>Even opera?  They all contain plenty of positive
>>references to sexual immorality, murder, violence, etc.
>
>Yes, this could.  Much of the music you describe above can indeed fall
>into the 'unedifying' arena.  I'm not trying to tell you what to do
>in your Christian walk.  I'm pointing out principles from God's word
>that you need to decide whether are true, whether they apply here, 
>and whether you are going to obey them.  Why do you argue so with the
>scriptural passages I have pointed out?  

The key issue here is how one defines conformity to the world.  You've
taken one area - rock music - and decided that, at least for your
own life, that area conforms to the world.  You've apparently 
concluded that entire genres of music are worldly, and that therefore
you're not going to listen to them.  Other genres - hymns, spirituals,
classical music - apparently do *not* conform to the world, and 
are therefore okay to listen to.  

I'd suggest that you do a little musical history lesson.  Rock 'n roll
has its roots in the black R&B music of the forties and early fifties,
which in turn has its roots in black church music.  In other words,
rock 'n roll has its roots in choir stalls.  It's true.  As T-Bone Burnett 
would say, you can look it up.  Sprituals, on the other hand, have their 
roots in the field hollers and call-and-response songs that were brought 
to America by African slaves.  Uh-oh, pagan roots.  Classical music?
It's been written for every occasion from worship services to 
commemorating wanton slaughter on battlefields, and some of its
major composers have been alcoholics, homosexuals, pedaphiles, drug 
addicts, and vicious racists.  All of this, by the way, is well
doucmented, and I'd encourage you to investigate it in more detail.

Do you see how crazy and convoluted this gets?  You're looking for
"pure" music, music that hasn't been tainted by the world.  And
you're not going to find it.  You will not find a single musical
genre, including classic Christian hymns, which has been unstained
by worldly involvement.  

And that's why I think the whole exercise of defining "worldly"
musical genres and "holy" musical genres is doomed from the start.  
Such genres don't exist.  Rock 'n roll is no more inherently evil
than Baroque compositions.  

But that's a far different thing than saying that evil rock 'n roll
doesn't exist.  You believe it does, and so do I.  But the evil is
defined by the lyrical content of the songs, not by the rhythms or
notes or instrumentation used.  

>These principles apply to ALL areas of your life.  Not just music.  Is 
>it a wonder that the church has strayed so much when so many believers
>have adopted the look and ways of the world around them.
>
>>  Christians
>>throughout history have taken popular musical forms and made them into
>>hymns of worship -- our hymnals are full of them.    
>>
>Please give me a history lesson here and point to some examples.  I
>really am unaware of this, though I wouldn't doubt it.  This wouldn't
>make much difference though, since these hymns are not embraced by the
>world, neither do they sound like the world or appeal to the world.

What does the world sound like?  Metallica?  Barry Manilow?  Duke
Ellington?  W.A. Mozart?  All of these folks have made music that is
enormously popular and that has appealed to a large segment of society.
Which ones "sound" worldly?  And why?  

>>The same could also be applied to books -- does this mean we shouldn't
>>read books?  You could definitely argue that it might not be wise to read
>>_some_ books, just as it's probably not wise to listen to _some_ songs.
>
>Yep!
> 
>>If some mysteries glorify violence and sexual debauchery, does that mean
>>one should not read all mysteries?
>
>I will not read books that contain anything that could detract from my
>spiritual walk (contain blatant sin, espouse immorality, etc).  And if
>I felt there is a certain class of reading material that would affect
>my testimony, I would also steer clear of those. 

The Bible deals with murder, adultery, homosexuality, drunkenness,
worship of idols, stealing, and lying - all blatant sins.  I assume
that you think it's appropriate to read the Bible, even though it
deals with these behaviors in sometimes graphic detail.  There's
a difference between writing about sin and its effects and 
glorying in sin and its effects.  I see no reason to shun any
music or literature that does the former without doing the latter.

>>Why, then, do you make the point that because some rock promotes
>>ungodliness, all rock is forbidden?
>
>I think I've answered this.

No you haven't.  See my objections above.

(stuff deleted)

>I threw out a record collection valued at greater than $5000 of my
>own accord.  No one prompted me to do it.  There was no "record"
>burning party or special preaching against it.  I wrestled with
>what I found in the word of God and finally submitted to what I
>believe was God's will in MY life.  It wasn't easy at first, but
>I am sure happy now that I did what I did.

Okay.  I respect your dedication to the Lord, and I'm willing to 
believe that you did what was right for you.  I *don't* accept the
view that such actions are expected and required of all Christians.

>mc

Andy Whitman
AT&T Bell Laboratories, Columbus, Ohio
att!cblpn!ajw  or
ajw@cblpn.att.com
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian