HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: stabosz@chopin.udel.edu (Rae Stabosz)
Subject: Re: kneeling...
Organization: University of Delaware
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 16:02:02 GMT



I have to add my two cents worth about kneeling.  I've come to this former 
mailing list only since it became a newsgroup.  So I am not familiar with the
regular contributors.  I subscribed because I am a Roman Catholic and am
interested in discussions on the faith.

Until I read this discussion on kneeling, I was happy to kneel at Masses
in churches which provided kneelers, and to stand at Masses which did
not and where standing was the custom during the consecration.  I had
never thought much about the difference in posture.  Oh, that's not
quite true.  I had thought a little about it, but I didn't know it was
a point of political contention in the Church.  My thinking was more
personal, and I sort of ruminated on the pros and cons to my own worship
of the two modes of posture.

This discussion has upset me, with the accusations flying back and
forth.  I feel somewhat violated, like my innocence in worship has
been taken away.  

Now I feel like I have to take a stand.  But I don't see why!  My
love for the Mass has been diminished in some small way.  I am hurt.
I feel accused of tepidity for enjoying either mode of posture.  I
feel my faith attacked.

I am discouraged.  If it is an important matter, such an important
matter as both sides appear to believe it is, why do I now feel less
happy thinking of Mass than I did before?  Okay, to carry it to the extreme,
I feel a bit like Eve, like I have bitten into an apple that carries
knowledge of good and evil that I did not wish to have, just by
subscribing to this newsgroup.  Now I will wonder, at Mass, if my
fellow worshipers have a posture agenda, or a hand-shaking agenda,
or a bell-ringing agenda, etc. as they attend Mass with me.  I will
spend energy trying not to thus wonder.  I will be sensitive to
discord that I didn't know existed until recently.  Am I wiser for
the knowledge of this discord?  Will it strengthen my faith?
So far it has opened my eyes to what I did not know existed,
and saddened me.  It is a physical hurt to read & to know that some would
judge my faith and fervor by the bend of my body during Consecration. 

Oh well.  I guess some good will come of me knowing of the discontent
about Mass.  But I have to affirm that everything I have read so far
about that which makes for "better worship" sounds like so much
wind blowing to me.  What goes on at Mass goes on between the soul
and God, and between the Church and Christ.  I have respect for the
formal rubrics but I trust the celebrant to know what they are and to
follow them.  This may be naive, and I suppose one of the reasons I
subscribed to this newsgroup was to find out more about the larger
issues in the Church today.  But coming in cold to it, I've felt an
atmosphere of heretic-hunting almost.  What gives?

Rae


Rae

Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: bkelly@handel.helios.nd.edu (b kelly)
Subject: Re:      Re: Women are unclean
Organization: OUC, University of Notre Dame
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1992 09:23:44 GMT

In article <CATHOLIC%92100300473098@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU> Jim McIntosh <JIM@AMERICAN.EDU> writes:
>On Sat, 3 Oct 1992 02:25:53 GMT (Thanh - Vincent) said:
>issues we debate are also being discussed at the highest levels of the
>Church:
>
>     BALTIMORE BISHOP CALLS FOR WOMEN PRIESTS
>
>     The church should admit women to the priesthood because
>     "justice demands it" and "the pastoral needs of the church
>     require it," Baltimore Auxiliary Bishop Francis Murphy said
>     recently. In declaring his disagreement with authorities in
>     Rome, Murphy said he considers the question "as important as
>     the issue Paul raised with Peter: namely, the admission of
>     gentiles into Christianity."
 Stuff removed ...


>     Following publication of Murphy's remarks, Baltimore Archbishop
>     William H. Keeler said he fully backs church teaching on the
>     ordination of women.
>
>     Meanwhile, the U.S. bishops' National Advisory Council has
>     urged the bishops to table the letter on women, saying its tone
>     is "defensive and authoritarian rather than pastoral." The
>     council is composed of priests, religious and laypeople.
>
>     -National Catholic Reporter, October 2, 1992, page 11.
>

Come on here.  Isn't this view of the importance of our discussions just a  
little bit inflated?  I wouldn't exactly call this the "highest levels of
the Church"  We have here one auxiliary bishop holding a press conference
to complain about what he considers an injustice.  His own ordinary then
steps up to defend Church policy, and then to pad the piece, the NCR dredges
up a piece of oldish news (from this past summer at ND) in the guise of some
new development.  Let's not inflate ourselves like puff adders here.

The fact is, the Church has never allowed women priests She does not allow
women priests now, nor will she ever allow women priests.  This is amply
clear from the repeated statements of same.  This "issue" won't run.  The
sooner we all stop kicking a dead horse and get on to the more important
things, the better.

The role of the laity in the Church is all too often undervalued in        
discussions like this.  It is high time we all took the Second Council of 
the Vatican seriously and live the life of the Church in the modern world.

God Bless to all,
Brendan

Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: jbuffer@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (James J Buffer)
Subject: Re: Intercommunion
Organization: The Ohio State University
 >
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1992 16:43:28 GMT

It's often helpful to refer to the original Latin, the official language of the
largest rite within the Catholic Church. The Latin does not say "one in 
'being'" but "consubstantialem Patri" = of the same substance (homoousios). Not
that a different translation would eliminate every misunderstanding. For 
example, if we said "consubstantial with the Father" or "of the same substance 
as the Father", we might get in our heads a picture of some divine lumpy 
substance, like silly putty or ooze. I'm not condemning the English translation
on this point, although I could point to many other infelicities and 
distortions in it. The French translation of this passage is "du la meme 
nature" of the same NATURE as the Father, which is clearly WRONG, so bad that 
even the French may admit their mistake and change it soon.
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Organization: The American University
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Sun, 27 Sep 1992 08:45:37 EDT
From:         Jim McIntosh <JIM@AMERICAN.EDU>
Subject:      Re: To kneel or not to kneel...to suffer the slings and arrows...
              27 Sep 1992 06:58:42 GMT from <dschenke@MAGNUS.ACS.OHIO-STATE.EDU>

On Sun, 27 Sep 1992 06:58:42 GMT (Dennis L Schenkel) said:
>I want to kneel. The pastor (via slide projector) tells me to sit. My brothers
>and sisters will be sitting.  But sitting is abhorent to me.  What should I do

Dennis, it seems that this is genuinely troubling to you, and is
hindering your participation in the mass.

I think that your best bet would be to look around Columbus for a church
in which people kneel during the consecration. There must be at least
one. This is, to my mind, the best solution because you would be in a
group with which you feel comfortable, while those in the Newman Center
would be able to continue with a liturgy with which they seem
comfortable.

I think "when in rome" is a valid rule of thumb when you join an existing
group for the liturgy. If possible, you should conform your actions to
theirs. If you truely find their actions "abhorent" (Webster's: "to
shrink from in disgust, hatred, etc.") then you are clearly not
participating as part of the community celebrating the liturgy, and
your being there is doing no one any good. If, on the other hand, you
find their actions merely irritations, then offer them up and go along
with the established customs of that community.

Jim McIntosh, SFO (jim@american.edu)
The American University
Washington DC 20016-8019 USA
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Sat, 26 Sep 1992 07:50:05 CDT
From:         "(Edward J. Branley)" <elendil@MINTIR.NEW-ORLEANS.LA.US>
Subject: Re: Prayer request

"(Bob von Buelow)" <rex!SPIKE.JPL.NASA.GOV!bobv> writes:

> In article <1992Sep25.033156.10833@news.nd.edu> jocallag@bach.helios.nd.edu
> (john ocallaghan) writes:
> >
> >Can we pray on the internet?  I'll try.
> >
> >  [beautiful prayer text omitted, but kept in my heart]
>
> John,
>   Thank you.  I am touched deeply.  What a wonderful thing to do.
>
> God Bless You.
>
> Bob
>
>
> --
> Bob von Buelow             Mars Observer Planning and Sequencing Element
> bobv@spike.jpl.nasa.gov          - standard disclaimers apply -

The only problem with such a beautiful little prayer popping up in these
discussions is that it's a radical shifting of gears, from intense discussion
with everyone here to intense discussion with God.  Hmmm, on second thought,
maybe it's not such a bad idea after all :-)

Anyway, it was indeed a nice prayer, and I hope it helps for a successful
mission.  You should also mention that you'll need some more prayers for a
while.  Eleven months to get there is a long time.  I don't know how you guys
find the patience to wait that long to see the fruits of your labors.




|Edward J. Branley                         elendil@mintir.New-Orleans.LA.US|
|Seashell Software                                UUCP:  rex!mintir!elendil|
|3508 North Woodlawn Avenue                          Compu$erve: 71237,2227|
|Metairie, LA   70006       voice: +1-504-455-5087     bbs: +1-504-455-8665|
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Mon, 5 Oct 1992 10:20:57 EDT
From:         "Brian Tillman, Smiths Industries, VAX Support,
              x8425" <tillman@SWDEV.SI.COM>
Subject:      RE: sinead o'connor

Mike, masquerading as BILL S. PRESTON, ESQ. (v201lrxa@UBVMSB.CC.BUFFALO.EDU)
described Sinead O'Connor on Saturday Night Live and then asks: "what (are) your
reactions"

The Pope certainly wasn't in the least hurt by the cited display, so my reaction
would be "so, what.  She's entitled to her opinion."  The way I always approach
any thing of this neature is to ask, "Is it true or false?"  If it is true, then
I am wrong and must change who I am.  If it is false, it cannot stand.

-----------------------------+--------------------------------
 Brian Tillman               | Internet: tillman@swdev.si.com
 Smiths Industries, Inc.     |           tillman_brian@si.com
 4141 Eastern Ave., MS129    | Hey, I said this stuff myself.
 Grand Rapids, MI 49518-8727 | My company has no part in it.
-----------------------------+--------------------------------
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: dmczap@wookie.cambridge.ibm.com ()
Subject: Re: A question of intercommunion
Date: Mon, 05 Oct 92 18:36:54 GMT
Organization: IBM T. J. Watson Research

In article <1992Sep25.195914.842@news.nd.edu>, jocallag@vyasa.helios.nd.edu (john ocallaghan) writes:

[Episcopal Liturgy phrases and comments omitted...]

|> I do not know very much about the Episcopal liturgy, but as these statments
|> are presented, they strike me as expressions of doubt about the RC doctrine
|> of the real presence which is Christ's sacrifice.  "Take them in remembrance
|> that Christ died for you;" why?  Because the sacrifice of Christ in His death
|> is not really present to you in this Eucharist.  "Feed on Him in your hearts
|> by faith;" why?  Because you cannot receive Him really on your tongue and in
|> your stomach.  

As a RC, I am not singularly, or even particularly, touched by God in the
profession of trans-substantiation. My tongue/stomach don't know that this
wafer is something different, it is my mind, my spirit, that knows this.
(That is, unless the consecrated host is digested differently than an 
unconsecrated wafer? ;-)
And if this awareness of Jesus' presence and penetration into my life and
actions is because of my faith in the concept, perhaps what I experience is 
very similar to what other people of other religions experience in their non-
trans-substantiated communion. This faith-led experience also then leads
me to believe that I can experience Jesus' sacrifice in this same way if I
were to take part in other Christian communions.

Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: aiden@NCoast.ORG (Steven Otlowski)
Subject: Re: Picking on altar servers and Jesuits now
Organization: North Coast Public Access *NIX, Cleveland, OH
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1992 08:01:23 GMT

Although this has nothing to do with the question of who should be 
servers it is amusing to note that, after all this discussion,

The American Church has been granted permission to allow
women as servers.

Just one step is a long journey of course...

Steve Otlowski
aiden@ncoast.org

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Date:         Tue, 29 Sep 1992 10:24:00 EDT
From:         lcuxlp!lhh@ATT.ATT.COM
Subject:      RCIA Update

	Thanks, and RCIA Update
	------------------------

	I wanted to thank everyone for their responses
	to my concerns about my RCIA class and the OT
	versus NT "versions" of God.

	I've tried to send out personal thanks,
	but I may have missed folks - especially those
	who responded directly to the list.

	Thank you all. I've revisited the responses
	many times and they have brought me great comfort.

	Here is the RCIA update: They're back !!
	We've had 2 more sessions.
	The first went fine. At the second, however ...
	We were discussing Lazarus and the rich man.
	The comment made was to the effect that this was that
	nasty OT God of Justice again; that they prefer
	that God allow Lazarus to come back and speak to the brothers.

	My comment -
	( I was caught up in my anger from the other session.
	  So rather than discuss the parable itself (as I should
	  have done) - I spewed )
	"First of all, there is one God.
	And anyway we're discussing the NT here, not the OT.
	This is a parable told by Jesus himself, in the Gospel
	of Luke itself. There is a message there from Jesus"
	And I turned toward Sister Joanne so that she could tell us this
	message. Her response: "Yes theres only one God,
	but the OT God is the God of Justice and the NT GOd is the
	God ... (!!!)". Also - "This parable wasnt about the NT,
	it was an OT story so it was about the OT."
	She also thinks that somehow
	Lazarus himself will get a second chance.
	- the implication again was that it was that mean old OT
	God who prevented it.
	[ So if its a "hard" reading from the NT, then we'll
	just split God in pieces,
	give the OT God all the nasty parts, and blame any reading we
	dont like on that. And also have the NT parts of God do what
	we'd like.]

	It was break, so then everyone got up and had cake and coffee.
	And I just sat by myself at the table.
	I felt a very strong urge to get up and leave - but, I stayed.
	Something deeper inside of me pushed me back into the chair.

	I was going to speak to the RCIA leader about all of this,
	and I still might.
	But, when I pray about this situation, the answer
	I think I get is to do nothing. To endure. To be
	humbled and seek to come closer to Christ for comfort.
	I feel there is God working in this.

	Until 6 months ago, I was far worse than any of these people.
	I thought Christians were fools for worshiping a man; and Jews
	were no better because they feared God like some ancient
	tribe, and think that Gods word is on a scroll of parchment.
	And that anyone who believed in God was an idiot.
	And that even if there were a God, he is cruel.

	So who am I to judge ? Am I not the greatest sinner.



			Len
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Date:         Sat, 26 Sep 1992 10:41:27 HST
From:         "(Len Howard)" <tas@PEGASUS.COM>
Subject:      Re: mysticism
              mysticism" (Sep 26,  1:58pm)

Joe, remember that there are a lot of people out there who ascribe to
the liberal view of revelations.  To quote Thomas "Here revelation is
essentially the human discovery of universal religious truth which is
accessible to all people but which has been discovered most fully by
the great religious geniuses of the world, such as Buddha, Confucius,
Mohammed, Socrates, the prophets of Israel, and especially Jesus.  The
supreme religious value of the Bible lies in the fact that it records
the lives, religious experience, and teaching of the greatest
religious geniuses."
      I don't see that bringing a holy man in from another relion and
listening to his ideas is heretical.  You don't have to change any
idea of your own.  Surely your faith and understanding is strong
enough beingsubjected to a different idea isn't it?  God reveals
himself to different people in different ways, and we can learn
something from most everyone.

Shalom,                                Len
                                     tas@pegasus.com
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Mon, 5 Oct 1992 13:11:19 CDT
From:         CCCAMPER@MIZZOU1.BITNET
Subject:      RE: Fatima
              5 Oct 1992 13:13:28 -0400 from <URSIC@BEAST.CS.HH.AB.COM>

On Mon, 5 Oct 1992 13:13:28 -0400 <URSIC@BEAST.CS.HH.AB.COM> said:
>Well, Rebecca, I guess I'm just the proverbial "doubting Thomas".
>Does anybody know what that "miracle of the sun" was that supposedly
>everybody witnessed? Or was that a typo for 'Son'?
>
The Miracle seen at Fatima was an incredible sight, witnessed by the
faithful and the non-believers. The sun gyrated in the air and
threw off a rainbow of colors for a period of time. It had been pouring
rain until Mary's apparition. (I've heard that articles of clothing
with left with rainbow colored drops on them but don't know for certain
if this is true) Finally the sun appeared to take a plunge for the
earth and many present thought it was the end of the world and they
would die. At what seemed to be the last moment, the sun receded back
into the sky and everyone's clothes were dry, the muddy earth was also
completely dry.

This was seen by thousands of people.

Today, people in Medjugorje, and people all over the world witness
various miracles of the sun. There is typically a blue disk spinning
in the center that most call the host. I've seen it with brilliant
colors shooting off in all directions, and once when praying the
rosary by a statue of Mary in a garden at the Daughters of St. Paul
bookstore in St. Louis it was all very soft pink and looked just like
a pinwheel spinning around. Quite a beautiful sight.

In His Love,
Elizabeth
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Date:         Sun, 27 Sep 1992 12:07:07 -0500
From:         Amanda Walker <amanda@INTERCON.COM>
Subject:      Re: mysticism

> Yes, it really is just hypnosis!  We are warned against this in the
> Bible.  We are told not to give over control of ourselves to anything or
> anyone.

Except to God.  This is, after all, the goal of Christian (and Jewish)
mediation...  The self is not a fortress, but a vessel waiting to be filled
with the love of God.


Peace,

Amanda Walker
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: 98yuwono@cua.edu
Subject: Re: Picking on altar servers and Jesuits now
Organization: The Catholic University of America
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 18:08:01 GMT

>HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAA!!!!!!!!
>Woah!  Dogma lover eh?  Why were at it why don't we do that female 
>curcumcission (whatever the spelling) where they hack off the clitoris and
>sew the labia shut (putting a tube in to allow urination).  

I failed to see the relevance of female circumcision with Dogma.
and i don't think the woman altar server or even woman priesthood is
dogmatic anyway.
>
>Welcome to the almost 21st century dudes!!!
>
>The church's dogma on only males being in the priesthood or on the altar 
>at all in some cases is SEXIST.  Mary bled for the church to exist yet
>the church keeps the members of her sex well under their foot.

I think this kind of flame just turns people off and is counterproductive.

Jesuit Educated and proud of it

Canisius College HS (JAkarta, Indonesia)
Creighton University (Omaha, NE)

Leo Yuwono

 ==============================================================================
* Leonardus K. Yuwono			   *  "Use it up...
* Internet: 98yuwono@cuavax.dnet.cua.edu   *    Wear it out...
* Bitnet  : 98yuwono@cua.bitnet            *     Make it do...
* UUCP	  : leo@garuda.UUCP  (not Active ) *      Or do without."   
* Jesus is my Postmaster general.(Zippy)   *		 WWII Slogan.
 *********************************AMDG**************************************** 
 

Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: kschudt@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Karl C Schudt)
Subject: Re: pre-vat II?
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1992 23:33:49 GMT



In article <CATHOLIC%92100216123452@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU> Brent Winiger <ABDWINIG@
IDBSU.IDBSU.EDU> writes:
>Liz wrote:
>>...the more I study my Bible the more I disagree with many things I
>>have been taught and many things they now are trying to teach me.
>
>     Liz, how about sharing some of the facets of Catholic Faith you're
>having problems reconciling with the Bible?  That would not be so
>anyone could lecture you, but because: 1) there are probably others
>reading this list who are having the same difficulties, and 2) We all
>could learn something from such a discussion about why Catholic and
>non-Catholic Christians interpret Scripture the way they do.  Since I'm
>sure that I'm not the only one who has a Protestant background it would
>give some people a good opportunity to share why they have chosen one
>interpretation over another, etc.
>
>Brent Winiger
>abdwinig@idbsu.idbsu.edu

This is an interesting question. Many times a protestant will ask me
"Why should you take the Church's word for it?" and then proceed to tell me
why the Church is wrong. I ask then "Why should I take your word for it?"
If you believe that the Catholic Church is inspired by God, then it makes
all the sense in the world to accept their authority. The early Church fathers
recognized the problems of interpreting scripture (many different interps of
the same passage.) Ignatius of Antioch wrote:

     In the same way as the Lord was wholly one with the Father, and
never acted independently of Him, either in person or through the apostles,
so you yourselves must never act independently of your bishop and clergy.
On no account persuade yourselves that it is right and proper to follow your
own private judgemnt.

Ignatius of Antioch (c.30-c.107 A.D)

This makes perfect sense when you see how Mormons, Baptists,Presbyterians,
etc. can all have wildly differnt teachings on things, but base them all
strictly from Scriptural passages. There is a reason God chose to establish
a single church, not thousands of different ones (IMHO of course! :)   ).

Admittedly from a strict Catholic perspective,
Karl Schudt
(Peace)
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