HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: wbralick@afit.af.mil (Will Bralick)
Subject: Re: conversational latin
Organization: Self-similar
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1992 14:56:25 GMT

In article <oneil.716253092@cwis> oneil@cwis.unomaha.edu (Sharon O'Neil) writes:
| wbralick@afit.af.mil (Will Bralick) writes:
| 
| >Salvete! (How should a letter begin?  ``Si valemus; valeo.'' Perhaps?)
						  ~~~
Doi!  Well, truer words ne'er were spake, neh?  My dog ate my homework.

| Here's an example from my (extremely worn but well loved) first year Latin
| text:
| 
| Anna Corneliae salutem dicit: si vales, bene est; valeo.  :-)
| ...
| By the way, I'm a recently certified Latin teacher!  It's good to see that
| people are still studying Latin out there.  Maybe I'll find a job yet!  :-)

You will make a wonderful teacher.  Good luck and thanks for the help!
Actually, I have a friend who has just left for the seminary with whom 
I will correspond in Latin ... we both will want the practice.  Perhaps
there is more demand than you think ... 


Best regards,

-- 
Will Bralick                          |  If we desire to defeat the enemy,
             wbralick@afit.af.mil     |  we must proportion our efforts to 
             bralick@cs.psu.edu       |  his powers of resistance.
with disclaimer;  use disclaimer;     |               - Carl von Clauswitz
From: mcovingt@athena.cs.uga.edu (Michael A. Covington)
Newsgroups: sci.classics
Subject: Re: Savage Inequalities
Date: 13 Sep 92 21:02:33 GMT
Article-I.D.: athena.1992Sep13.210233.25549
Organization: University of Georgia, Athens

One can add that Latin is a good preparation generally for studying
languages that are structurally very unlike English.  Learning Latin
teaches you to develop a completely new set of grammatical intuitions
(namely the case relations).  This is very good preparation for
learning Arabic or Kiswahili or whatever.  By comparision, French and
Spanish are practically transliterated English -- not very foreign at
all, and not good as a preparation for anything else that is really
far away.

-- 
+ Michael Covington - Artificial Intelligence Programs - U of Georgia - USA 
+ Unless otherwise noted, these are private opinions, not official statements.
Newsgroups: sci.classics
From: brekshyn@shearson.com (Bohdan Rekshynskyj)
Subject: Re: conversational latin
Reply-To: brekshyn@shearson.com
Organization: Ordinatio
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 15:09:03 GMT

Salve!

   I have in my possession two cassettes illustrating Latin.  I haven't played them
in toto, but they do have stuff (the booklet, that is) on conversational Latin.
Write to:

	Educational Svces Corp.
	1725 K St. NW
	Washinton DC, 20006

and ask them about "LATINUM"


They have other languages as well.

					Ave atque vale!

					Bohdan(vs)



=====================================================================
 
Bohdan Peter Rekshynskyj
 
Consultant                     
 
Compuserve:  72576,1754


                              
All promulgations are my own.  No corporate entity has authorization
to represent me.
 
Imprimatur.						Nihil obstat.
 
=====================================================================

In article 10984@afit.af.mil, wbralick@afit.af.mil (Will Bralick) writes:
>Salvete! (How should a letter begin?  ``Si valemus; valeo.'' Perhaps?)
>
>My freshman daughter is beginning Latin and I am extremely rusty.  I
>thought that it might help both of us to attempt conversational Latin
>at home.  Question: where can I find conversational Latin materials?
>
>Valete!  (Ah, yes, how how should it end?)
>
>-- 
>Will Bralick                          |  If we desire to defeat the enemy,
>             wbralick@afit.af.mil     |  we must proportion our efforts to 
>             bralick@cs.psu.edu       |  his powers of resistance.
>with disclaimer;  use disclaimer;     |               - Carl von Clauswitz
From: wilbanks@spot.Colorado.EDU (Dylan the Wonder Pup!)
Newsgroups: sci.classics
Subject: Help - need a good Latin grammar
Date: 11 Sep 92 04:12:46 GMT
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder

I'm a classics major with umpteen years of class to go. I need a good, 
strong Latin grammar to get me through the next two/three years. 
What should I get? Is Allen and Greenbough straightforward enough?
From: wbralick@afit.af.mil (Will Bralick)
Newsgroups: sci.classics
Subject: conversational latin
Date: 11 Sep 92 15:23:12 GMT
Organization: Self-similar

Salvete! (How should a letter begin?  ``Si valemus; valeo.'' Perhaps?)

My freshman daughter is beginning Latin and I am extremely rusty.  I
thought that it might help both of us to attempt conversational Latin
at home.  Question: where can I find conversational Latin materials?

Valete!  (Ah, yes, how how should it end?)

-- 
Will Bralick                          |  If we desire to defeat the enemy,
             wbralick@afit.af.mil     |  we must proportion our efforts to 
             bralick@cs.psu.edu       |  his powers of resistance.
with disclaimer;  use disclaimer;     |               - Carl von Clauswitz
Newsgroups: sci.classics,rec.arts.books
From: jmc@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (John McCarthy)
Subject: Re: Abraham and Agamemnon
Followup-To: sci.classics
Reply-To: jmc@cs.Stanford.EDU
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University
Date: 14 Sep 92 20:22:29

Both the Greeks and the Jews had legends of human sacrifice, but didn't
practice it in literate times.  Presumably actual human sacrifice
occurred in earlier times but was stopped.  It would be interesting
to know the process by which it was stopped.  Is there anything in
the classics about that?
--
John McCarthy, Computer Science Department, Stanford, CA 94305
*
He who refuses to do arithmetic is doomed to talk nonsense.
From: ara@zurich.ai.mit.edu (Allan Adler)
Newsgroups: sci.classics
Subject: maps of ancient Greece
Date: 12 Sep 92 01:52:29 GMT
Distribution: sci
Organization: M.I.T. Artificial Intelligence Lab.


Can someone suggest a good atlas of ancient Greece? At the moment, what I
want to look up is stuff like:
(1) Olympia
(2) Pisa (the one ruled by Oinomaos)
(3) the land of the Taurides
(4) the strait of Euripus
(5) Aulis

I would also be interested in a good modern map that will let me compare
these locations with modern landmarks. It would be nice if it included
topographical features, rivers, etc. Hence it would be good if both
the ancient and modern maps had precise coordinates (i.e. longitude and
lattitude) indicated on them.

The number of places I will want to look up is likely to grow rapidly
pretty soon.

Also: where can one find some good photographs of some
of the places I mentioned above? And where can one find some modern
descriptions of the rapidly changing currents of the Euripus strait?
What about maps that show the topography of the strait with the water
removed, such as I have seen for the oceans of the world?

Allan Adler
ara@altdorf.ai.mit.edu
From: ara@zurich.ai.mit.edu (Allan Adler)
Newsgroups: sci.classics
Subject: quote wanted
Date: 9 Sep 92 07:50:09 GMT
Article-I.D.: camelot.ARA.92Sep9025009
Distribution: sci
Organization: M.I.T. Artificial Intelligence Lab.


I posted this during the summer and got not response. Maybe now that everyone
is back from vacation, I'll have better luck.

I was told be a friend in college that some famous Roman writer, I think
he said Horace, said (in Latin), "Everyone thinks his own feces smell good."
He quoted it first in Latin but I don't remember it. I would like to find
this quote, including a reference to where it occurs.

If you know, please let me know.

For example, if you have some database you can search for the word "olet"
you might find it.

Allan Adler
ara@altdorf.ai.mit.edu
Newsgroups: sci.classics
From: oneil@cwis.unomaha.edu (Sharon O'Neil)
Subject: Re: conversational latin
Organization: University of Nebraska at Omaha
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 23:11:32 GMT

wbralick@afit.af.mil (Will Bralick) writes:

>Salvete! (How should a letter begin?  ``Si valemus; valeo.'' Perhaps?)

Here's an example from my (extremely worn but well loved) first year Latin
text:

Anna Corneliae salutem dicit: si vales, bene est; valeo.  :-)

You may abbreviate (as the Romans did) s.v.b.e.v.

>My freshman daughter is beginning Latin and I am extremely rusty.  I
>thought that it might help both of us to attempt conversational Latin
>at home.  Question: where can I find conversational Latin materials?

You may find it useful to join the American Classical League.  It's only
about $25/year and yes, there are student rates available, I believe for
$15.  You would get a newsletter, magazine, and BEST OF ALL, a ten percent
discount on their Latin materials, which are very cheap, but very nice.
If your daughter's Latin teacher isn't an ACL member, I recommend it highly.
There's a bunch of conversational Latin materials sold by the ACL for a 
reasonable price.  (You can also order from the ACL without being a member
but you don't get the discount.)  

Anyway, you can write the ACL at 

Miami University
Oxford, OH 45056

Telephone: 513-529-4116

Also, if your daughter is interested, there's a very nice book that you and
she might enjoy together.  It's called "Latin is Fun."  It might be a nice
review for you along with her in a non-threatening way.  It's full of 
pictures and cultural stuff and, in my opinion, one of the best books for
actually allowing the student to *write* original sentences and such in 
Latin.  The author's name escapes me, but if you can't find it using just the
title, write me and I'll try and dig up his name.  

While I'm at it, ther's some IBM-PC Latin programs available from a 
company named Tessera in Virginia: Latin Certamen Practice, Latin
Verb forms, Participles, Nouns and Adjectives, and so on.  Address:
PO BX 522 Bedford VA, 24523.  I haven't purchased or used these programs,
but I did clip a copy of the ad from a journal because they looked 
interesting enough.  

>Valete!  (Ah, yes, how how should it end?)

That's right.  You're doing great!

By the way, I'm a recently certified Latin teacher!  It's good to see that
people are still studying Latin out there.  Maybe I'll find a job yet!  :-)

Sharon O'Neil
oneil@cwis.unomaha.edu

Newsgroups: sci.classics
From: gto@uhura.neoucom.EDU (Thomas Osterfield)
Subject: dead sea scrolls
Organization: Northeastern Ohio Universities College of Medicine
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1992 19:57:35 GMT

Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.conspiracy,sci.classics
Subject: Re: Dead Sea Scrolls
Organization: Northeastern Ohio Universities College of Medicine
Keywords: more journals

In addition to _BAR_ (whose reputation has been fairly characterized,
although there is debate whether the reputation is fair), you might
also want to read the more establishment:
	Biblical Archaeologist
and/or the more specialist:
	Revue de Qumran

Tom Osterfield
--
G. Thomas Osterfield                      (216)325-2511 x531
Archives, Northeastern Ohio Universities College of Medicine
gto@scotty.neoucom.EDU             74106.1153@compuserve.com
uunet!aablue!neoucom!gto         af192@cleveland.freenet.edu
Xref: sparky sci.classics:722 alt.mythology:1785 rec.arts.books:16243
Organization: TECHNION - Israel Institute of Technology.
Date: Thursday, 10 Sep 1992 03:37:30 IST
From: Uri Zakai <RPR1ZAK@TECHNION.BITNET>
Newsgroups: sci.classics
Subject: Mycenae

im doing a work on the political structure of ancient greece (around 1250 BC ).

i have already covered the idea that mycenae was a senior kingdom that
commanded the lesser kingdoms (argos, tiryns  etc ).kingdoms that had
palaces and a soldiers of there own , but whose kings obeyed the wanax.

what i need is sources and book names that try and prove one of the following
ideas :

a)greece was a land of several independent kingdoms (with no overlord)

or-

b)greece was a land ruled by the mycenea empire, which held all of the
major palaces in ancient greece.

thanx
uri zakai
From: cla04@seq1.keele.ac.uk (A.T. Fear)
Newsgroups: sci.classics
Subject: Re: The Iliad an Anti War Poem?
Date: 15 Sep 92 08:30:10 GMT
Organization: Keele University, England

From article <1992Sep14.222036.26339@news.ysu.edu>, by ae547@yfn.ysu.edu (Ronda Hauben):
> I wonder if anyone has references to the debate over the Iliad as a 
> pro war or anti war poem. There is an interesting reference in Plato's 
> republic pointing out the anti war examples in the Iliad, but I've heard
> that some popele claim it is a pro war poem. 
> 
The best anti-war treatment is Simone Weil's The Iliad or the poem of
force. I don't think this works though. Glory in war is necessary to the
heroic ethos, there is a recognition that it's tough sometimes, but then
life's like that sometimes. Perhaps the Iliad is very modern in this
sense in that it captures the glories and the pathos of war. Perhaps
Michael Herr's Despatches about the Vietnam War would be good
comparative material.

Andy
Newsgroups: sci.classics
From: oneil@cwis.unomaha.edu (Sharon O'Neil)
Subject: Re: Help - need a good Latin grammar
Organization: University of Nebraska at Omaha
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 23:25:42 GMT

wilbanks@spot.Colorado.EDU (Dylan the Wonder Pup!) writes:

>I'm a classics major with umpteen years of class to go. I need a good, 
>strong Latin grammar to get me through the next two/three years. 
>What should I get? Is Allen and Greenbough straightforward enough?

Maybe.  There's also a couple others which I really like.  Both are 
reasonably priced and paperback: 

1) Essentials of Latin Grammar: A Practical Guide to the Mastery of Latin
   W. Michael Wilson

	Lots of examples.  Well-organized.  BIG list of irregular verbs 
	and their principal parts in the back.  The Latin student I tutored
	this summer (who had a very difficult time dealing with all the
	grammar and trying to organize it found this book very helpful.)
	Cheap too: $5.95

2) A Student's Latin Grammar from the Cambridge Latin Course, The North
   American Third Edition

	It's designed to be more advanced.  Well-organized.  Good section
	on word order and sentence structure.  Also contains a nice listing
	of verbs, figures of speech, metrics, dictionary usage, cognates.
	Also includes review exercises.  I think it was about 10 or 11
	dollars.  

The advantages to these books would be that they are more modern and perhaps
easier for the modern student to follow.  Of course, I think it all depends
upon personal preference and the accuracy of the book being used.  Of course,
I collect just about every Latin book I can get my hands on.  (Seriously.)
They'll come in handy when I do find a job teaching high school Latin.

Sharon O'Neil
oneil@cwis.unomaha.edu

Newsgroups: sci.classics,rec.arts.books
From: rsquires@cyclops.eece.unm.edu (Roger Squires)
Subject: Re: Abraham and Agamemnon
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 92 04:45:22 GMT
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque


In article <JMC.92Sep14202229@SAIL.Stanford.EDU> jmc@cs.Stanford.EDU writes:
>Both the Greeks and the Jews had legends of human sacrifice, but didn't
>practice it in literate times.  Presumably actual human sacrifice
>occurred in earlier times but was stopped.  It would be interesting
>to know the process by which it was stopped.  Is there anything in
>the classics about that?

	I feel like I should know this, and that the answer is yes,
	but I can't name a title.  Arrgh.  As I mentioned in another thread
	there is a specific myth concerning sacrifices that should
	be in any anthology, but it's been years since I've read them.
	It involved the tricking of the gods to accept only the bones and fat 
	instead of the good meat, but I don't think it mentions
	human sacrifice.

	In any case, these stories that deal with the civilisation
	of man and his releasing himself from the shackles of his
	own mind and the tyranny of nature are the most glorious
	works there are for me -- specifically the _Oresteia_ and
	_Prometheus Bound_ (and both by one man!).  My experience
	is pretty limited, but there are almost no other books that
	come close to these for me -- perhaps _Nostromo_ or
	_Samson Agonistes_ approach them in producing the tingling spine
	and mental rush that these plays do.   No others come to mind.

	BTW, if the original poster is really interested in 
	Abraham and Isaac, and has the balls to weather a heavy dose
	of Northern Christianity :), I can highly recommend
	_Fear and Trembling_ by Kierkegaard, for a fascinating
	(and reasonably short) intense meditation on the meaning
	of the story.
	
>John McCarthy, Computer Science Department, Stanford, CA 94305

Roger Squires
rsquires@cyclops.eece.unm.edu
From: alisonjw@spider.co.uk (Alison J Wyld)
Newsgroups: sci.classics
Subject: BAR (was Re: Dead Sea Scrolls)
Date: 11 Sep 92 08:15:11 GMT
Organization: Spider Systems Limited, Edinburgh, UK.

In article <2AAFDFE2.18457@news.service.uci.edu> mturner@aris.ss.uci.edu (Matthew Turner) writes:
>
>BAR is respectable, but it is not considered an important resource due to the fact that the articles are written at a level for the intelligent layman, not the professional.  They oversimplify and leave out far too much precise data in the hopes of explaining general ideas.  You might compare BAR's articles to those in Scientific American.  They both play the same role in their fields.
>

OK, I'm an intelligent laywoman. Can anyone tell me if BAR is
available in the UK, and if so, where.  I _don't_ have access to a
University library, if thats relevant. 

Thanks

Alison
Newsgroups: sci.classics
From: oneil@cwis.unomaha.edu (Sharon O'Neil)
Subject: Savage Inequalities
Summary: Latin and the Inner City School
Organization: University of Nebraska at Omaha
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1992 22:54:43 GMT

I'm about halfway through Jonathan Kozol's "Savage Inequalities."  It's an
expose on the crumbling infrastructure of America's inner city schools and
how that disrepair is related to racism.

One interesting thing I've noted is that the author appears to be a very
avid supporter of Latin.  At one point, when he is discussing the condition
of public schools with a high school class, one girl complains that she
wanted to take Latin but that the school's only Latin teacher left.

Later in the book, while extolling the privileges of a suburban white school,
Kozol makes sure to point out that the white privileged youth not only get
to start taking foreign language in middle school but that they may choose
the second language of Latin in high school.  Latin has been mentioned about
three times since I started reading this book.  I am quite surprised given
that the main focus of the book is the segregation of black youth in the
inner city school.

Apparently, the author considers Latin to be of benefit to these young people.

I'd be likely to agree with him.  While I very much support the idea of
multicultural education, including the teaching of African history and
African American history to American youth, I also believe very much in
the teaching of Latin and the classics.  (Personally, I think that there's
room for both since Western civilization has had to interact with other
civilizations throughout history, including the African, Asian, and 
Middle Eastern cultures.  We can't teach Western European and American
history and culture in isolation.)

Has anyone else here had the opportunity to learn about what folks like
Dr. Mastrantonio have done in the Philadelphia school system?  (I saw the
ERIC microfiche of a wonderful unit that he did to integrate black 
history into the Latin and ancient history curriculum.)

By the way, I'm not talking about Afrocentric history and culture here, or
Eurocentric either.  Rather, I believe we need to look at things from an
intercultural perspective. 

Sharon O'Neil
oneil@cwis.unomaha.edu

Newsgroups: sci.classics
From: brekshyn@shearson.com (Bohdan Rekshynskyj)
Subject: Re: Rhomaioi
Reply-To: brekshyn@shearson.com
Organization: Ordinatio
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 15:14:03 GMT

Greetings,

   Sounds like to me that some facts got jumbled up.  The Byzantines referred to
themselves as Rhomaioi almost to the end (1453, methinks) despite Latin falling
into disuse after the 5th century debacles in the Western half of the Imperium.
They (the Byzantines) did, at times, hold sway in the Black Sea areas.

					Bohdan




=====================================================================
 
Bohdan Peter Rekshynskyj
 
Consultant                     
 
Compuserve:  72576,1754


                              
All promulgations are my own.  No corporate entity has authorization
to represent me.
 
Imprimatur.						Nihil obstat.
 
=====================================================================

In article 12851@news.vanderbilt.edu, rickertj@athena.cas.vanderbilt.edu (John Rickert) writes:
>
>    Back in my distant past I remember hearing something about a group
>of people who lived on the Black Sea (?) who called themselves "Rhomaioi,"
>"Romans."  Did such a group ever exist?  How long did they last?  Whatever
>became of them?  Incidentally, were they allied to Rome or Constantinople
>in regard to religion?
>
>   Thanks.
>
>
>John Rickert					    Ad astra per aspera...
>rickertj@athena.cas.vanderbilt.edu



Newsgroups: sci.classics
From: wmporter@jetson.uh.edu (William M. Porter)
Subject: Re: Help - need a good Latin grammar
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: University of Houston
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 10:02:00 GMT

In article <1992Sep11.041246.21486@ucsu.Colorado.EDU>,
wilbanks@spot.Colorado.EDU (Dylan the Wonder Pup!) writes...

>I'm a classics major with umpteen years of class to go. I need a good, 
>strong Latin grammar to get me through the next two/three years. 
>What should I get? Is Allen and Greenbough straightforward enough?

Not sure what you mean by "straightforward". Allen & Greenough (not
Greenbough--no doubt a typo) doesn't really have a lot of competition. Old
Bennett's grammar is excellent for a student, but long out of print. Most of
the other references grammars available in English are either too elementary to
be worth spending money on or too complicated to be very useful.

William Porter 
Internet: wmporter@jetson.uh.edu
Classical Languages: University of Houston
From: ara@zurich.ai.mit.edu (Allan Adler)
Newsgroups: sci.classics
Subject: Abraham and Agamemnon
Date: 12 Sep 92 01:40:12 GMT
Distribution: sci
Organization: M.I.T. Artificial Intelligence Lab.


There seem to be striking similarities between the story of Abraham and Isaac
in the Bible and the story of Agamemnon and Iphigenia. God told Abraham to
sacrifice Isaac and intervened at the last minute. Artemis told Agamemnon
to sacrifice Iphigenia and intervened at the last minute.

This raises at least two questions:
(1) Is there any evidence of one myth being influenced by the other one?
(2) Are there other occurrences of this theme in ancient mythologies?

Allan Adler
ara@altdorf.ai.mit.edu
Xref: sparky sci.classics:724 alt.mythology:1787
From: rickertj@athena.cas.vanderbilt.edu (John Rickert)
Newsgroups: sci.classics
Subject: Rhomaioi
Date: 13 Sep 92 23:41:06 GMT
Organization: Vanderbilt University Mathematics Department


    Back in my distant past I remember hearing something about a group
of people who lived on the Black Sea (?) who called themselves "Rhomaioi,"
"Romans."  Did such a group ever exist?  How long did they last?  Whatever
became of them?  Incidentally, were they allied to Rome or Constantinople
in regard to religion?

   Thanks.


John Rickert					    Ad astra per aspera...
rickertj@athena.cas.vanderbilt.edu
Xref: sparky sci.classics:726 alt.mythology:1790
From: alisonjw@spider.co.uk (Alison J Wyld)
Newsgroups: sci.classics,alt.mythology
Subject: Re: sacrifice
Date: 15 Sep 92 08:15:40 GMT
Organization: Spider Systems Limited, Edinburgh, UK.

In article <p!znac-@lynx.unm.edu> rsquires@cyclops.eece.unm.edu (Roger Squires) writes:
>
>	The point is that *humans* like it burned (cooked), and they
>	are offering a tithe to the gods.  There is a specific myth
>	that relates how some human tricked the gods into accepting
>	the bones and fat instead of the good meat.  Does anyone
>	recall which it is?  As for how it got to the god, I believe

Check out Hesiod's Theogony. I noticed the story on a scan through, but
haven't read that bit yet, so I can't remember who it was.  Prometheus ?

Alison
Newsgroups: sci.classics