HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: Mysterious <unknown@uni.verse>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.slovak-l
Subject: Re: First Vienna Awards
Date: 17 Nov 1992 22:09:01 GMT
Organization: Society of Losers
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In article <SLOVAK-L%92111111385819@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> ,
HAMMERL@UCS.INDIANA.EDU writes:
>Both Tony and Joe no longer speak the language of their ancestors. But
>Joe still has an interest in "sticking up for" his, while Tony knows
Oh, Louise, just watch out for Joe, only after quite a while he revealed
that he spent the first half (!) of his life in Hungary. So now we all
know where the wind blows from... As I said I do not blame the Hungarians
for sticking to their national traditions, but many times they forget to
consider that their neighbours also try to stick to what belongs to them. 
Regards,
Lubosh
P.S.: And to Joe - he made an impression that he doesn't speak Hungarian
from the beginning, but now I certainly doubt it. I haven't seen anyone
who had Hungarian parents and wouldn't speak Hungarian, but as we see on
Tony it is much different for Slovaks...
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Date:         Sun, 15 Nov 1992 22:17:49 -0500
From:         GEORGE BAUER <BAUER@RCKHRST1.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: First Vienna Awards

Lubosh:

I too wish that people could look forward and try to SOLVE the serious
problems that exist in the world rather than scratching the sores to keep
them festering for generations.

I am much saddened when I watch people divert energies which SHOULD be used
to SOLVE problems instead dissipate their energy by keeping real or imagined
abuses alive.  I am at a loss to understand what motivates these people.

In a way it's like the alcoholic who blames his parents for his illness,
shoots them, and then cries "They made me do it!"  Even if he feels better
(which I doubt), his parents are still dead and he is still an alcoholic.
Everyone has suffered, and the illness remains.

Even if the parents WERE to blame, at some point one has to look AHEAD
instead of BACKWARDS and make a life for himself and his progeny.

Perhaps it is not within the nature of man to forgive and forget and go
forward...  But to the extent that it isn't, to that extent we ALL die a
little.

I hope to see more messages on the list seeking ways to make a future and
fewer messages about the need to avenge the past.  Sadly, I predict that
I will not...


=========================================================================
| DR.  GEORGE R. BAUER             | INTERESTS:                         |
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From: Lubosh <Lubosh.Hanuska@anu.edu.au>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.slovak-l
Subject: Re: Roots of the Slovak-Hungarian Conflict
Date: 19 Nov 1992 04:30:32 GMT
Organization: Australian National University
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In article <CMM.0.88.721579836.juris@telos.ai> Igor Jurisica,
juris@TELOS.AI.TORONTO.EDU writes:
>You should also consider that Hungarians in Slovakia can study everything
>up to the university in hungarian. Now, when the borders are open, they
are
>free to continue on some Hungarian universitie in their studies.
Well, this is something nobody mentioned yet, but I had a few Hungarian
colleagues as students when I studied (1982-1987 in Kosice). All of them
had enormous problem with the Slovak language. The obvious reason was
they learned everything in Hungarian from the kindergarten up to the high
school! Slovak was only a foreign language, and majority of them had a
very bad attitude to learn it, supported by their teachers who were
obviously mainly Hungarian. So their ability to speak Slovak IN SLOVAKIA
was very poor even after they finished the high school ! Can you imagine
the same attitude of the Hungarians in other countries, like Canada, or
U.S.A.? 
Lubosh
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Date:         Sun, 22 Nov 1992 15:03:42 -0700
From:         POOK@ZENO.MSC.COLORADO.EDU
Subject:      Re: Gabcikovo, propaganda, etc.

Milan Palus hit it on the head: in a part of the world where tit-for-tat
is the modus operandi, openness is the best weapon.  I am directing
these comments not only to Slovakia but to Hungary, Romania, and to the
Balkan nations as well.

Exchanges of scholars, journalists and open borders for tuourism certainly
go a long way towards dulling tensions.  Such programs also contribute
to mutual understanding, respect, and at lest, to tolerance.

There already are some such international programs in existance.  They
are sponsored by the US, France, and England (at least the ones I am
familiar with).  There is a definite need however to have meaningful
exchanges among central and eastern European nations.  The free flow
of information is probably among the most potent weapons against
anarchy - as recent history in eastern Europe should exemplify.

The other arena of importance is free international trade.  The care
and feeding of private enterprise without national or cultural barriers
encourage the growth of private and national wealth.  At which point
only Marx would want to kill the goose which laid the golden egg.

Laci Pook
From: Mysterious <unknown@uni.verse>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.slovak-l
Subject: Re: Roots of the Slovak-Hungarian Conflict
Date: 18 Nov 1992 00:06:43 GMT
Organization: Society of Losers
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In article <9211120020.AA12558@atc.boeing.com> Joe Pannon,
pannon@BCSFSE.BOEING.COM writes:
>Autonomy within the Slovak state where Hungarians are in majority and
>the Hungarian language also accepted as official language.  We are
Okay, Joe, can you specify more what do you understand under autonomy. It
seems to me that the Hungarian minority understands under "autonomy"
something else than you do...
Regards, 
Lubosh
From: pannon@BCSFSE.CA.BOEING.COM (Joe Pannon)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.slovak-l
Subject: Re: Slovak-Hungarian Relations
Date: 18 Nov 92 19:44:12 GMT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Mailer: Elm [revision: 66.25]

Dear Marian:

> This problem was good deal pertracted on STV and in slovak press.
> The situation was that Fradi's fans got out of their sector. I would
> like remind you that hungarian police officials were also present and
> their "boss" admitted that the police action was equal to the
> situation that arised. Then day later he changed his oppinion "after
> seing video records". I would also like to remind you that fradi's
> fans are well known because of their "tough behaviour". Slovan's fans
> are relatively pacific. I believe that the slovak police acted in
> their best intention to avoid "new Bruxelles". I would like also point
> out that I will have no objection if slovak "fans" have been treated
> the same way for the same things in Hungary. It is because the fact
> that when one is bad lot it doesn't matter wheather he is Hungarian or
> Slovak.

I was SPECIFICALLY complaining about OVERREACTION on the part of Slovak
authorities, not about reaction per se.  It was not only at the game,
but happening before the game, too, on the streets, where Hungarian fans were
beaten up, their cars vandalized, etc.  Same thing after the game.

To me it is also concievable, that those Hungarian police officials may
not have had a broad enough view from their vantage points in the
stadium. Obviously, TV camara crews with their zoom-in lenses had a
better view of what was happening in most of the stadium.

> It is not very common name because I don't know anybody with such
> name.I will try to get some informations.

Sorry, I made a mistake: my mother's paternal ancestry is really from the
Trencin area, not from around your town.  I tend to confuse the two.

>   You are certainly right. There are more examples. Take for instance
>   slovak poets.
>   Francisci
>   Braxatoris - Sladkovic
>   Orszag     - Hviezdoslav
>  ....
>   And my mother's name was Spiros. Grandfather was greek.

Thanks for supporting my point!  (... and sorry for misspelling
Hviezdoslav's name.)

Regards,
Joe Pannon
From: Lubosh <Lubosh.Hanuska@anu.edu.au>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.slovak-l
Subject: Re: Slovak-Hungarian Conflicts
Date: 22 Nov 1992 01:21:59 GMT
Organization: Australian National University
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In article <199211151744.AA107099@ns1.CC.Lehigh.EDU> Paul Hisem,
pjh3@LEHIGH.EDU writes:
>Just what are these minority rights?  I assume they are some sort of
>protectionary regulations, against discrimination.  Can anyone clear
this up?
The minority rights were granted during the Communist times by the
government signing all international agreements to show "how great our
socialism is", and if there are any complaints to this period it is more
related to the violation of human rights by the COmmunists in general, so
it was not specific for Hungarians, or any other minorities. After
November 1989 the minority rights granted in Czecho-Slovakia are the same
as in any other country in Europe... if there are complaints, it is not
because there would be a government policy to persecute anybody for being
of a different nationality, but because the people in Slovakia have the
same problems as people anywhere around you (wherever you are) - a drunk
black was beaten by the police in LA some time ago - remember it?,
Aboriginals claim to be discriminated in Australia. I think one can
become discriminated if one WANTS to, and then use it for a political
advantage. Fortunately enough the Hungarians are not pushing for "ethnic
cleansing" in the areas where they have majority...
Lubosh
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.slovak-l
From: Robert Cox <rcox@convex.UUCP>
Subject: Matthew of Trencin
Originator: rcox@mozart.convex.com
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1992 20:43:02 GMT
Reply-To: rcox@convex.UUCP (Robert Cox)
Organization: Engineering, CONVEX Computer Corp., Richardson, Tx., USA
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

Here is a quote from another Slovak history book.  Joseph Mikus's "Slovakia
and the Slovaks": 

At the beginning of the fourtheen century, upon the death of the last king 
of the Arpa'd family (1301), stuggles for succession to the throne of Hun-
gary began.  During the reign of Charles Robert d'Anjou (1308-1342), a 
nobleman from Slovakia, Mathias C~a'k of Trenc~i'n, became the most power-
ful magnate, or palatinus, of the Kingdom.  Exploiting dynastic struggles, 
he managed to establish himself as sovereign of Upper Hungary.  This "Lord
of the Va'g and Tatras" held court, minted his own money, and commanded his
own army.  Until his death in 1321, he governed Slovakia as her exclusive
ruler.  "The little state which he had set up was necessarily Slav in 
character ..." writes Ernest Denis, "and simply by the fact that he separ-
ated himself from the rest of Hungary, gathering the Slovak counties 
together under a common law, he revived the idea of prior independence, 
and it is certain that he had the support of the populace; these repaid
him with their sympathy, conserving a grateful memory of him." *

* Ernest Denis, "La question d' Autriche: les Slovaques," Delagrave, Paris, 
1917, pp. 118-119. 
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From: pannon@BCSFSE.CA.BOEING.COM (Joe Pannon)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.slovak-l
Subject: Re: Powers of Assimilation
Date: 18 Nov 92 18:07:00 GMT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Mailer: Elm [revision: 66.25]
              "SLOVAK-L@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu" at Nov 17, 92 5:51 pm

Dear Jan:

>          After WWII something like 60-thousand people in Slovakia
> declared themselves to be of Hungarian nationality.  Today it is
> something like 500-thousand.   Either a miracle or a past or present
> lie.

After having detailed what the Kosice Program meant to Hungarians of
Slovakia, I find it surprising that you don't understand the seeming
discrepancy between those population figures.

As I wrote then, Hungarians between 1945 and '48 were summarily declared
fascist collaborators, stripped their citizenships and essentially made
outlaws in their ancient homeland.  Under such circumstances, the only
means of avoiding deportation from their homes was to declare themselves
Slovaks, not Hungarians.  So that's why the low figure immediately after
the war.

It's ironic, that for Hungarians of Slovakia, Gottwald's communist coup
was a sort of liberation which ended their outlaw status.  Later they
dared again to declare themselves Hungarians.

I think George Antony had his finger right on the money on this one!

Regards,
Joe Pannon
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Date:         Wed, 18 Nov 1992 16:43:14 EST
From:         George Antony <gantony@METZ.UNE.EDU.AU>
Subject:      Re: Powers of Assimilation
              "SLOVAK-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu" at Nov 17, 92 5:51 pm

George Frajkor wrote:
>          After WWII something like 60-thousand people in Slovakia
> declared themselves to be of Hungarian nationality.  Today it is
> something like 500-thousand.   Either a miracle or a past or present
> lie.

As a born skeptic, I am only left with the second alternative.  It would
be instructive to investigate, however, who, when and why lied ?

I cannot think of a reason why a non-Hungarian would want to claim to be
Hungarian in today's Slovakia, hence the hypothesis to be disproved must
be that after WWII most Hungarians in Slovakia decided to hide their true
identities.

If so, the next question is, why Hungarians wanted to avoid "outing"
after the war ?  One of my suggestions would be fear of reprisals.  Whether
that subjective fear was justified or not, is a different, albeit not
unrelated, issue.

>     Once Slovakia departed from Hungary, a lot of Hungarian
> indsultrialists, merchants and administators went home.  They were not
> assimilated, they just went back to hUngary.

I find this wording rather uncharitable.  At least some of the people in
question must have been locals, rather than bureaucrats sent from Budapest,
and they would have actually LEFT their homeland.

Or is it only that, as one of those on the net who felt pressed to leave our
homelands for one reason or another,  I may be oversensitive about this ?
 -------------------------------------------------------------
 George Antony    (gantony@metz.une.edu.au)
 Department of Agricultural Economics and Business Management
 University of New England, Armidale, N.S.W. 2351, Australia
 Fax: (+61-67) 711531     Phone: (+61-67) 733222 (GMT +10 hrs)
 -------------------------------------------------------------
From: Lubosh <Lubosh.Hanuska@anu.edu.au>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.slovak-l
Subject: Re: Slovaks vs. Hungarians
Date: 23 Nov 1992 22:13:44 GMT
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In article <921122103051_76317.2023_EHB24-1@CompuServe.COM> Joe Pannon,
76317.2023@COMPUSERVE.COM writes:
>The Lubosh propoganda machine was turned into high gear again as he
writes:
Dear Joe,
I didn't intend to make any propaganda, as you refer to my last posting!
My opinions are based on my own personal experience when I lived in
Slovakia (Kosice). And I'd say there are many Hungarians unable to say 'I
am a Hungarian, and proud of my own language and culture, but since I
live in Slovakia I'll make every effort to learn and understand Slovak
and to use it in contact with Slovaks.' Usually they are only proclaiming
the first part of this sentence, and skip the second one to require the
Slovaks to understand Hungarian. Unfortunately, I can't act here as a
politician, and argue on the basis of political quotes and citations. I
am sure you also have complaints about how Slovaks behave towards
Hungarians. I think George already asked you to quote what kind of
"opression" do you exactly refer to... except if you'd take clashes
between teenagers in the night clubs seriously. My requirement towards
Hungarians were made quite clear: 1. To make an effort to be able to have
a working command of Slovak. I agree most of the Hungarians in Slovakia
do have it, but most of them as well do not have the WILLINGNESS to use
it. My personal experience - if you have a different one, please state.
2. To express openly and unify themselves in their demands according to
the autonomy within Slovakia, and if they want to be a part of Hungary,
they should put the question in front of the an appropriate international
auditorium. At this stage everybody is claiming something else - the
Slovak government made it clear it's not in favour of any border
revision, thus there must be a third party decision. 
Regarding my quote of Horthy's letter to Hitler dated 13.March 1939 I am
sure you can easily find it in Gilbert L.Oddo: Slovakia and its people,
R.Speller and Sons, New York, 1960, p.248. But in my opinion we should
not argue on the basis of history, because things are changing too
rapidly these days, and we can't go a couple of centuries back to claim
the rights which were valid at that time...
Regards,
Lubosh
From: Lubosh <Lubosh.Hanuska@anu.edu.au>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.slovak-l
Subject: Re: Hungarian dispute
Date: 21 Nov 1992 05:31:37 GMT
Organization: Australian National University
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In article <01GR2TRJAGXU00JZ53@VAXF.COLORADO.EDU> ,
POOK@ZENO.MSC.COLORADO.EDU writes:
>To all who argue one or the other side of majority vs. minority
>behavior in an location: diversity is beautifull!  Do you not find
>it pleasant when you find a minority culture in the midst of outside
>influences, maintaining its own norms?  That is not a sign of
>hostility, it is a sign of resilience.  If others could just view it
>that way.
>
>When Lubosh finds minority groups inside Slovakia clinging to their
>habits it should be no more remarkable than if he finds the same
>in Ukraine or Hungary or an place else.  By the way, clinging to one's
>unique identity is a method of survival indeed.  Look around you,
>the world is full of such examples.
>
>Laci Pook
Dear Laci, 
I do not know if you have experienced the situation in Slovakia yourself.
Unfortunately the fellow Hungarians overthere do not share our views that
the diversity is beautiful. It is not just their sticking to their
culture and language (nothing against it), but their almost exclusive
resistance to know anything else. I know quite many Australians here,
coming from various backgrounds - Slovaks, Czechs, Poles, Hungarians,
Croats, etc. They all maintain their culture and language as they can,
and it is largely supported by the government authorities. But nobody is
saying "We don't want to have our children in English schools, we want
them to learn everything in our own language." This happens in Slovakia,
and as I mentioned in another posting, many young Hungarians face a
problem to proceed with their career due to a lack of knowledge of Slovak
language. And many times they become strongly nationalist just because
when they get into a situation like that they become more aggressive to
support their demands "not to need to learn that 'butatot' language
anymore". I personally knew people like that, so please consider it.
Lubosh
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Date:         Mon, 23 Nov 1992 20:23:20 EST
From:         Paul Hisem <pjh3@LEHIGH.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Roots of the Slovak-Hungarian Conflict

Igor Jurisica from <juris@THOR.AI.TORONTO.EDU> writes:

<2. Example of French in CDN is missleading.  Why did you not use the example
<   of native people in US or CDN? (Slovaks were there well before Hungarians)

How much longer do you want to play Ping-Pong?  Igor's point is about as right
to the point as one could get.  I assume that there will continue to be
controversy as to who was on the Slovak territory first, the Slovaks or the
Hungarians, but what does it really matter now?  In North America, natives
inhabited the ENTIRE continent.  What happened, the British and the French
landed, and NA has been different ever since.  True, the natives were duped
into signing treaties with the "white man", but that's history!  What is the
US or Canada supposed to do, say "Oops, we're sorry, we'll leave now"?  The
natives just recently got some god awful large land settlement up the in the
NorthWest Territories and some bizillion dollar settlement from the Canadian
government, but even that is too much.  Times change, they should change with
them.  Nobody is kicking out the Natives, but they now live in Canada, so they
should live under Canada's laws.  I'm taking the long road to saying that the
Hungarians are for all intents and purposes "stuck" in Slovakia.  They should
have the same laws apply to them as the other Slovaks.  Nobody is kicking them
out for speaking Hungarian in the manner that people were exiled in the era of
communism for speaking against the government.  No.  The democratic system
allows for individualism.  However, if the Hungarian minority wants to live by
Hungarian laws, perhaps they should consider MOVING BACK TO HUNGARY.  Nothing
short of a war is going to install Hungarian laws in Slovakia.  I wish some of
you would see that.  The Czech and Slovak Republic controls this territory,
until the dissolution in January, at which time it becomes the territory of
the Slovak Republic.  And BTW, I'm not in favor of any war...

Don't get me wrong, I'm not prejudiced against Hungarians, but I am against
them forcing their way into Slovak politics.  If their minority can muster the
votes in the democratic elections, great.  I'll agree to that any day.  But to
go changing the signs, other than in border areas, is only asking for trouble.
Take a look where you're in, the SLOVAK REPUBLIC.  Funny, I don't see Hungary
mentioned in the name!

Paul Hisem              "If you can't stand the heat,
PJH3@LEHIGH.EDU          get the hell out of the kitchen!"
Lehigh University
UC#29 Box 426
Bethlehem, PA 18015
USA
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Date:         Sat, 21 Nov 1992 09:25:34 EST
From:         Stan Brunn <BRUNN@UKCC.UKY.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Hungarian signs irritants to Slovaks
              20 Nov 1992 16:48:32 PST from <pannon@BCSFSE.CA.BOEING.COM>

I have questions  about the SLovak-Hungarian signs in southern Slovakia. Which
language is first and how are they displayed.  Is the Slovak name above the Hun
garian one?  Are they side by side?  Do the official buildings, e.g., schools,
post offices, police, etc. have bilingual signage?  What are the criteria for a
 bilingual sign?  Must it be majority Hungarian? 40 %, 25%,??  Stan Brunn
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