From: wojdylo@maths.uwa.oz.au (INFIDEL)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Furstenberg and other things (Was: Human
Date: 7 Oct 1992 10:29:25 GMT
Organization: The University of Westrn Australia
NNTP-Posting-Host: madvax.maths.uwa.oz.au

david mardiste <dam@coombs.anu.edu.au> writes:

>In article <1araklINNj85@uniwa.uwa.edu.au> INFIDEL,
>wojdylo@maths.uwa.oz.au writes:
>>
>>>In article <1ajtc2INNsvg@uniwa.uwa.edu.au>, wojdylo@maths.uwa.oz.au
>>>(INFIDEL) writes:>
>>>> Finally, perhaps our Finnish observers would like to explain why the
>>>> Furstenberg school, the Arajs Kommando and the other SD divisions had
>no
>>>> shortage of fighters for their cause in occupied Latvia and Estonia.
>>>> John Wojdylo
>>> Perth, Western Australia

>Unfortunately, I cannot find very much information on these groups in
>Estonia, i've never read detailed histories of the Nazi organisations.
>Could you please post to the net or to me directly your references so i
>can update.

Your wish is my command.

The Arajs Kommando was led by a Latvian by the name of Janis Arajs who
was tried for war crimes  in the late 1980's by the International Court
of Justice. Proceedings of the Court's work can be obtained directly
from them.

The daily, the Melbourne "Age" newspaper (Oct.3-4) carried
a two-page article by a former Australian prosecutor who'd been
investigating suspected war criminals in Australia, in particular,
collaborators with Arajs in the period 1941-1943. Although the case against 
one particular man, whose fictitious name was given as Janis A., "was
strong", funding for the investigations has been halted, preventing final
investigation and trial, despite substantial (though not conclusive,
yet) evidence that he'd had a direct role in the shooting of about 
20 000 Jews and Gypsies. 

I can give you more details from this article if you wish; if you think
that my statement in the previous post was made lightly --- that such
allegations about Estonia's and Latvia's complicity are  wild
exagerations and untrue -- then I suggest you look at records of the ICJ.
Other readers will know recent books that have been written on the
subject. 

The existence of the Arajs Kommando and the other SD divisions on
Latvian soil are well known amongst everyone but die-hard Latvian and
Estonian nationalists --- the sorts of people who instigated and
enacted the recent Estonian citizenship laws.

Estonia and Latvia are not the only newly independent nations with a
black record. Is it by coincidence that those countries clammerring most
loudly for independence and national assertion are also those with the
blackest records ?  The Ukraine , for instance.



>.
>>>Why are WE supposed to explain that? 
>>>What is the thing that NEEDS to be explained?
>>
>>
>>Why on earth should any supporters of the Estonian citizenship laws 
>>learn about Estonian's dubious recent history on matters of ethnic
>>relations ?

>From a political science perspective and from policy analysis it is very
>easy to understand why the previous Estonian government adopted the
>citizenship laws they did. 

From the perspective of building a strong nation whose citizens will
prosper etc., in the context of current events in the immediate
vicinity, the decision was insane.



>However, it is misleading to imply that those who supported the policy
>decisions on citizenship laws wish to condone the operations of the
>groups you mentioned. 

If you're refering to the old republic, then I submit the flourishing of
SS mass-murder divisions -- the SD -- such as the Arajs Kommando, as
evidence of the rabid nationalist character of enough of the population 
of the time.


>John, you will be hard pressed to show me instances of anti-semitism in
>pre-WWII Estonia.  

And the SD divisions flourished out of love for their fellow man.


>In fact, it seemes, that for historical reasons,
>German nationalism (see any basic history on Estonia) was more distrusted
>than the Russians were before the Soviet occupation in 1940-41. 

Arajs and his ilk didn't shoot the occupying Germans or Russians, but
innocent Jews and Gypsies in their thousands. The men in these
mass-murder divisions were Latvian and Estonian, and were schooled in the
art of murder by Goerhing's henchmen who were German. 



>My sources indicates that Estonians mostly drafted/joined home defence
>units (Gr Selbstschutz) or the German army or police and the Waffen SS.
>Estonian soldiers did serve in the cannon fodder units which were the
>waffen SS. (as you know not all things branded SS were elite Pure German
>Units). The Waffen SS served as the combat units for foreign
>nationalities. The special forces that acted in Klooga and Kalevi-Liiva
>death camps were not Waffen SS, although these units did contain some
>Estonians, as well as other nationalities. 

>To say that the existence of these units that you mentioned means that
>ALL estonians served with them is a bit of a gross generalisation. 

That is why I did not say it.

To deny the nationalist character of the Estonian citizenship laws is to
invite the repetition of history, of insane interethnic conflict.


>Most
>did not. To imply this is the same as saying that all of the CPSU members
>were involved in Stalin's purges of the 30s, when infact most were
>victums of the purges. 

Nevertheless, the fact remains that the victims of the purges chose to be
part of an insidious machine in the first place: they cast their lot in
with the rest, they subscribe to their measure of culpability.


>The following is a quote from an article by Toe No~mm Vice Chairman of
>the Society of Estonian War History, Published in The Monthly Survey of
>Baltic and Soviet Politics, December 1991 pp12-13.

>"True, that during the German occupation thousands of Jews were killed in
>Estonia and besides German officials and special troops this was done by
>Estonians. But it was so all over occupied Europe wherever crimes like
>these were committed the "help" of local residents was used.The Estonians
>are just as guilty ast he Belgians, the Latvians, the Poles, the French,
>and so on."

This is the kind of obfuscation one can expect from a patriot (is he 
also a nationalist ?). Does he call himself a historian? What a disgrace.

Estonians are NOT "just as guilty as the Poles", for instance. There was
never a flourishing SS mass-murder division consisting of Poles killing
Jews and Gypsies or anyone else.  I hope you understand the difference between
compliciting individuals and compliciting institutions. 

(The Belgians had their Flandria Division; and the Ukranians had their
feared fascist UPA. The French had a compliciting government as well as
French SS divisions.)

Institutions do not die out in a mere fifty years.


>Obviously, this issue is important to you or why waste the band width and
>the time.

5 years from now, Western liberals and Estonian nationalists will be
dismayed at and abhorred by the interethnic slaughter in Estonia.
They'll wonder what went wrong; and while Western liberals sit back in
their cushy armchair having another wine, the Estonian nationalist will
be out on the street killing yet another  non-Estonian in  a
"revenge-killing" that "had to happen".  Maybe "ethnic cleansing" will
then seem like a very good idea.


>However, I would like to know more about the groups that you
>mentioned and if you have any details you could send and especially the
>exact numbers of estonians that were involved with the units you
>mentioned. 

I'll dispatch this information soon.

 
>I'm sure there could be some Russian sources somewere.


>David Mardiste

>>>Tapani Hietaniemi
>>
>>JW


John Wojdylo


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