HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: michael.polymenakos@factory.com (Michael Polymenakos) 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.bulgaria,soc.culture.greek
Subject: Re: Skopje's Swiss Dreams (was: MACEDONIA: A SWITZERLAND...)
Date: 16 Aug 92 16:51:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Invention Factory's BBS - New York City, NY - 212-274-1243v.32bis
Reply-To: michael.polymenakos@factory.com (Michael Polymenakos) 


Quoting lb@cs.man.ac.uk (Luben Boyanov)

LB>writer, freedom fighter, etc. before 1920). But one can hardly blame the
LB>Macedonians for that. All their history books have been written in Belgrade
LB>and it's not their fault that all this has been imposed on them for 70
LB>years (first 25 years being Southern Serbia and later - Macedonia). But the

  You are right on the money. The history of the "Macedonian" people is
  a fictitious creation of Belgrade.

LB>idea for independent Macedonia belongs to the Bulgarian Macedonians from
LB>the last century and this is quite well documented. BTW, Macedonia was at
LB>that time under Ottoman rule and I've never seen documents related to

  At that time Macedonia (all three portions) were inhabited equally by
  Greeks, Serbs, Bulgarians, East Bulgarians (AKA: "Macedonians"), Vlachii,
  Albanians, Turks, Jews, Armenians, etc, etc...

  The name Macedonia, applied to the whole region, which could not be named
  after one nation since it was not occupied by only one nation.

  After the 1913 war, the borders were drawn and populations were exchanged.
  The inhabitans of old Macedonia each went to their parent nation. What was
  then Macedonia no longer exists.

  Historical example: Western Poland was Germany (Prussia?) until 1945. Today,
  would you call the residents of Eastern poland Germans? What was Germany
  then no longer exists, it went west where the Germans went. Same for
  Macedonia. Macedonia is where the Macedonians live: And that is Greece.

LB>the history of that time that Greece had similar (as those nowadays)
LB>objection towards the name Macedonia. The Ottomans did have objections for

  It was the Greek consern that in a "Macedonia" where greeks would
  not comprise more than 40% of the population vs. 50% slavs, the rights of
  Greeks would not be effectively respected. Actually, many Greeks saw a
  "Macedonian state"  (based on the pre-1913 definition of Macedonia) as a
  solution; but their arguements were weakened when Comittachi irregulars
  started roaming the countryside trying to enforce their rule.

  The partioning of the then-Macedonia, and the orderly exchanges of
  populations that followed proved to be a more viable solution than a weak
  state of Macedonia comprised of all there nations mixed together. May I
  remind you that Greece and Serbia have never fought over the 1913 border.
  Had it not been for the two Bulgarian attempts to expand (first during WWI
  as allies to the Central Empires, then in WWII as allies to Hitler), the 1913
  treaties would have been a 100% success.

LB>>Panos Lolonis

LB>Luben

Michael

---
 . SLMR 2.1a . If this were an actual tagline, it would be funny.
From: blazic@ecf.toronto.edu (BLAZIC Joseph R)
Subject: Re: Stopping Another Holocaust
Organization: University of Toronto, Engineering Computing Facility
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1992 03:26:21 GMT

In article <1992Aug15.193358.11460@risky.ecs.umass.edu> curcija@medr0.ecs.umass.edu (Dragan Curcija) writes:
>criminal(s) is wrong and I violently oppose it.  Serbs in B&H will only loose
>this way, and may never win their independence.

Dragan,

How will they loose?  The current situation in the Balkans seems to strengthen
Mao's philosophy: power stems from the barrel of a gun.  What have Serbs
in general outside of Serbia to loose, except for a relatively minor number
of casualties?

Regards,

Joe
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: nyu
Subject: Helsinki Watch
Organization: New York University
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 00:03:20 GMT
Distribution: world
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Followup-To: 
From: nyu
Reply-To: 
Organization: 
Subject: Helsinki Watch
Keywords: 

I meant to ask:

Just inquiring as to this groups opinion of the report by 
Helsinki Watch that "The Serbs appear to be engaged in a
determined process of forcefully disarming Muslims where
they are clearly a small encircled minority," stocked
them in the stadium "while their houses are 'searched'
[and] the men isolated and transported to concentration camps."

In the report is recital of one incident on May 12, when a
military police attachment of the Yugoslav National Army
shot 15 disarmed captive Muslim combatants and would have
completed its office on the rest if one soldier hadn't
called out "Don't kill them all. We need a few prisoners
for exchange purposes."

Quotes and excerpts from "The UN's Silence Will Be It's Shame"
by Murray Kempton, New York Newsday [reprinted without permission]

Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.bulgaria,soc.culture.greek
From: jdd1@cec1.wustl.edu (James Dimos Dimarogonas)
Subject: Re: Skopje's Swiss Dreams
Organization: Washington University, St. Louis Mo.
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 23:07:43 GMT

In article <1992Aug20.210703.5339@tfs.com> petrov@tfs.com (George Petrov) writes:
>In article <1992Aug20.204334.16473@wuecl.wustl.edu> jdd1@cec1.wustl.edu (James Dimos Dimarogonas) writes:
>
>	(stuff deleted)
>
>>a solution of the problem.  As to the other proposition of the goverement, 
>>that the country to be recognised by a different name and create three 
>>provinces, the macedonian, the albanian(under some name) and a third
>>one in the north by some other name to satisfy the serbian population,
>>I will try to find a quote in some old newspapers I have.  But I remember
>>one time it was stated, was after the albanian goverement said that
>>albanian territories of the republic should be returned to Albania.
>>I heard in on the short wave radio  (voice of Greece) that some official
>>made this proposal, and that the greek goverement will promote autonomy
>>for the albanian region, but not independence. I will try to get back to
>>you on this one. 
>>
>>Regards
>>
>>James Dimarogonas 
>
>	The Greek position is very overbearing.  Sounds as
>	though they want to 'Finlandize' Macedonia.  There is
>	nothing in international law that justifies this approach.
>	Irredentisim, pure and simple.

This was merely a sugestion to solve two problems:
  
1.  To recognize indirectly a slavic Macedonian nation, without
recognizing the entire macedonian region as theirs.
2.  To solve the problem of ethnic albanians, without conflict.

Maybe the sugestion was bad.  But it is better than beeing stuborn
and refusing all attempts of a diplomatic solution.  Maybe another
reason for this sugestion was to show that Greece does not insist
for copyright reasons, but gives them the opportunity to use their 
chosen name, it is the context that is not acceptable.  Anyways
at least greece has tried to find solutions that would save face
for every one, we yet haven't heard any sugestions from Skopje
other than they are the rightfull heirs to the empire of Philip.
No dreams or sumbols of ancient empires are going to help us
get out of this mess.

Regards

James Dimarogonas
From: mitrovic@tik.ethz.ch (Srdjan Mitrovic)
Subject: Re: 31% Serbs take 70% of B.-H.
Organization: TIK, ETH Zuerich, Switzerland
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 11:25:46 GMT

In article <1992Aug12.213651.13572@src.umd.edu> tedwards@src.umd.edu (Thomas
Grant Edwards) writes:
>
>But the question is, if the regular military forces of Serbia were
>rendered non-operation, say by a synchronized massive air strike agains
>C^3 centers, military command posts, bases, enough CAP to kill any
>Serbian warplane in the air, would this be enough for opposition
>forces in Serbia who are against the current regime's ethnic cleansing
>policy to gain control?  

Knowing my people and learning from history, such an attack would
be the death to all opposition parties. Any kind of opposition
would be treated as traitor, and I believe that everybody, including
opposition would blame the attacking forces for the killed people 
(civilians+soldiers) and destroyed infrastructure. Any peace movement 
would stop to exist. I believe that it would change my attitude toward 
the conflict too (to more aggressive).
Such "punishment" actions never work. They are only
good for some people to say to themselves that they are doing something.
Who cares if it is wrong! They can always claim that there was a small
chance that it could help. Who cares that every expert guessed that
chance as <1%. 

On the military aspect it would not work too. The Serbian forces in B&H 
are fighting completely autonomously from Serbia. Definetly there are
supplies coming from Serbia. There must be, as there are such for Croats
and Muslims. But why not trying to make a deal. Offer Serbia the lifting 
of embargo for a specific actions from its side. No politicians did it
ever! I do not mean such things as "stop the war". How can you do that?
Panic has been trying to make concessions and is offering various
possibilities to hinder the war in B&H but the reaction from the west
was that they  laughed about him. I doubt that anybody wants Serbia to help 
terminating this war but Serbs themselves.

No I do not have a solution how to solve it. I can only see
what can worsen the situation. By "worsen" I mean more killed civilians
of any nation.

>
>Or, would the people of Serbia huddle around their government in such
>an attack?  Or perhaps irregular forces which would withstand such
>an attack successfully oppose an opposition force?

Any people would huddle together in times of great danger, be it Americans
or Serbs or any other nation, especially those that have been
in constant danger of extermination for centuries.


>
>(I'm not making reccommendations, just curious.  I _AM_ for CAP
>over Yugoslavia...nothing flies that doesn't have UN approval.)
>
>-Tom

Srdjan


Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.europe
From: ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis )
Subject: Re: How long will we remain civilized?
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 19:57:32 GMT

cza@prefect.uucp (Cengiz Akgun) writes:

>If you don't have anything conforting to say to Bosnians (Moslem and
>Croation alike), you can at least try to be quite for the respect 
>to their pain; rather than adding to it by your assertions like
>above.  The war in Bosnia is uncalled for, injust, and a lopsided 
>one and another monumantal shame of a fasist agression.  As usual, 
>whole world is watching agaain without having a goose bumb the 
>slaughter of Bosnians on the name of ethnical cleansing.

 You dare to talk, when Turkey's involvement in Cyprus is still alive?
 The fasist, racist, and guilty state of Turkey should first learn Turks to
 close their big mouth. Which you have to do since you are GUILTY.

>C. Akgun


-- 
---> Panos Tamamidis
     University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Xref: sparky soc.culture.yugoslavia:7973 soc.culture.greek:7545 soc.culture.europe:7328 eunet.politics:1058 soc.culture.australian:3907
From: ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis )
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,eunet.politics,soc.culture.australian
Subject: Re: EDUCATION SPECIAL: MAP OF THE WORLD
Date: 14 Aug 92 17:53:56 GMT
Article-I.D.: news.BszJ1x.2C0
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana

kontlm@eua.ericsson.se (Tomas Lundstrom) writes:

>Just trying to get the facts right. About this issue of "Macedonia"
>I have not enough knowledge to have an opinion.
>(However, from Swedish school history lectures I seem to have gotten the
>impression that "Macedonia" is something "greekish", rather than "slavish".

 Correct.  But also note the following: If they recognized as "Macedonia",
 nobady in a few years will be saying that "Macedonia" is something
 "greekish".  They have chosen for their flag Great Alexander's emblem.
 Everybody could imagine what they are going to do in the future.  In
 their critical situation, instead of trying to iron out the differences
 with Greece, they keep provoking Greeks. 

>I just hope we (humanity) can fix (at least) this problem without a war ...

 We hope too. 

>regards/ Tomas

-- 
---> Panos Tamamidis
     University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
From: draskovi@usc.edu (Zoran Draskovic)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Gen. MacKenzie
Date: 18 Aug 1992 14:51:05 -0700
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: girtab.usc.edu

TIME, August 17, 1992.

Q: Tp "pacify" all of Bosnia-Herzegovina, what size military operation would be
needed?

A: Well, the Germans gave it a try with 30 divisions, and they weren't
successful. A lot of people were killed. if there were resistance
throughout Bosnia-herzegovina and you had to occupy it, you could be talking up
 to 1 million troops.

Q: Why not bomb artillery positions and send in helicopter gunships?

A: You wouldn't be able to find all the weapons systems that are doing the dama
ge. Mortars are the favored weapon in Bosnia, and they're hidden very easily
and carried around in everything from school buses to cars. What's much
more important is that if you do that, then the U.N. peacekeeping force is
whether it likes it or not, affiliated with the side not being attacked.
Therefore you have sitting there 1600(U.N. soldiers) hostages.

Q: Is there anything that would rapidly improve the situation in Bosnia?

A: Yes - and the presidency [of Bosnia] will hate to hear me saying this:
negotaiations with the Serbian side within Bosnia. The presidency will not
talk to the other side because they say this is a war of aggression
controlled by Belgrade. they feel that if they start to talk, the status
quo will be frozen, and they don't have a lot of territory. If you don't
want to talk, then there's only one solution: one side wins, one side loses
and a lot of people get killed in between. So my feeling is that
pressure has to be brought to bear to get them to the table. The Serbs will
talk any time, any place, at any lebel because they probably have what they
want. It seems to me talking could get the Bosnian Muslims territory.

.................
Q: You don't entirely blame the Serbs?

A: When people ask me whom do you blame, I say, "Give me the day and the
month, and I'll tell you". What the Serbs did three months ago was totally
unacceptable: the city was bombarded, civilians were targeted. Today it is
more complex. What we now see from the Bosnian presidency's side is
that it's in their interest to keep the thing going and get the Serbs
to retaliate in order to convince the international community that
intervention is a good idea. So I blame both sides.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.bulgaria,soc.culture.greek
From: lolonis@news.weeg.uiowa.edu (Panagiotis Lolonis)
Subject: Re: Skopje's Swiss Dreams (was: MACEDONIA: A SWITZERLAND...)
Organization: University of Iowa, Iowa City, IA, USA
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 06:02:20 GMT

cla04@seq1.keele.ac.uk (A.T. Fear) writes:

>In England a newspaper report (Guardian) told us the Macedonian army consisted of
>2,000 men and 2 helicopters.

Need for update here.  Currently, Skopjeans have 6 MIG(20something) airplanes
and about 40 tanks (given by Serbs to prevent Skopjean-Albanians
from joining with Albanians living in Kossovo, in a case of Albanian
uprise in that area).

> I'd have thought that this wouldn't have posed a threat even to the most
> incompetent opposition. 

Well, thinks are not so simple.

Can you guarantee that there will be no terrorist activities against Greece
supported by the Skopjeans?  You do not need thousands of troops to plant
several bombs in Salonika and deter tourists.  We (and the EC as well) do not
need another wave of terrorism.  We have had enough.  We have paid enough.

Can you eliminate the scenario that Skopjeans, Boulgarians, and Turks make an
alliance and attack Greece simultaneously to free "Macedonians", "Boulgarians",
and "Turks" from the Greek "oppression"?  (Hint: which countries support the
Skopjeans economically and militarily?)

I would like to remind you that the EC and NATO have repeatedly refused to 
guarantee Greece's borders against an attack from Turkey.
In fact, the western European countries have refused to provide guarantees
even when Greece is attached from the North.

>> and cultural heritage.

>Despite the highly contentious nature of Greek claims in this area, even
>if we accept them as true isn't imitation the sincerest form of flattery? I'd be pleased if the French
>started to claim they were really English.
> 

Well, that's not what happens with Skopje.  Skopjeans claim that they are
"Macedonians" (some of them claim that they are "patriotic descendants of
ancient Macedonians!) but NOT Greeks.  They also claim that Macedonians,
including ancient Macedonians, were not Greeks!!!

The best analogy with your example would be if French
claimed that the Queen of England is a Frenchwoman, that Churchill was
a Frenchman, that there are French people in England who are oppressed,
and that "Britain" should unite again with France (they may attempt
to justify this version of history arguing that today's English are 
descendants of Normands).

If people of the UK feel flattered when other people use English symbols,
why do not they suggest that the Republic of Skopje should be
named  "England".  I guarantee that Greece will support such a
proposition.

BTW, how would UK people react if they saw international maps labeling
the Falkland Islands as "Malvinas"?  Would they still feel flattered? 

>Andy 

Panos Lolonis
U. of Iowa
From: draskovi@usc.edu (Zoran Draskovic)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: campsIII
Date: 12 Aug 1992 12:33:20 -0700
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: girtab.usc.edu


 BANJA LUKA, Bosnia-Hercegovina (UPI) -- A British opposition party
leader Tuesday ended a private inquiry into alleged human rights
violations at Serb-run detention camps, saying that he found poor
conditions but NO evidence of systematic torture and killing at the
locations he visited.

    Paddy Ashdown, a member of Parliament and head of the Liberal
Democratic Party, returned to Belgrade after inspecting two camps where
Muslim Slavs and other non-Serbs are being held by Serbian forces
fighting to rip a self-declared Serbian state out of newly independent
Bosnia-Hercegovina.

    "Broadly, I believe that GENEVA CONVENTION IS BEING UPHELD, and from
what I can tell, it is being followed to the absolute limits that it is
POSSIBLE to do," Ashdown said late Monday after visiting the Manjaca
detention center, near the Serbian stronghold of Banja Luka, where some
3,500 Muslim Slavs are currently held.

    "The conditions have visibly improved in comparison to Omarska,"
said Ashdown refering to another nearby detention center, where a large
number of emaciated Muslim Slav prisoners of war were recently found.
	But, Ashdown said that many Geneva Convention articles cannot be
upheld at Manjaca because of the SEVERE LACK OF FOOD AND MEDICINE across
all of war-torn Bosnia-Hercegovina.

    "If we want those camps to be operated to standards that we would
recognize, we have to see what we can provide," he said.

     On Sunday, Ashdown visited the Kula prison behind Serbian lines
outside the capital, Sarajevo.

     Ashdown contended that his visit and the outrage in the West over
reports of widespread abuses at Serb-run detention centers would
increase pressure on Serbian leaders to abolish an estimated 500 prison
camps run by undisciplined paramilitary units not under their control.

     During the one-hour tour of Manjaca, Ashdown spoke with a number of
prisoners, although always in the presence of their guards.

     Many were emaciated, apparently from a lack of food, their faces
pale, their eyes dull.

     They are housed in three barn-like structures, about 500 to each.
They said they are fed twice daily and are allowed to take showers every
15 days.

     Ashdown said he did not believe the commander of the camp was
competent enough to be running the facility.

     "Lieutenant Colonel Bozidar Popovic looks like a front-line solder
given a job he does not understand, in my view, and almost certainly
Russian-trained," said Ashdown. "Probably yesterday, somebody thrust
the Geneva Convention into his hands."
From: nsp00@ccc.amdahl.com (Nigel S Pope)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,eunet.politics,soc.culture.australian
Subject: Re: THE ABORIGINAL GOVERNMENT OFFICIALLY RECOGNISES THE INDEPENDENCE OF MACEDONIA
Date: 14 Aug 92 20:00:19 GMT
Reply-To: nsp00@JUTS.ccc.amdahl.com (Nigel S Pope)
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA

Say What?  Since when did Australia elect an Aboriginal Government?  I
would love to see more Aboriginals involved in the running but wouldn't
like to be governed by any minority race in Australia - what was that
about 'special interests'.
Secondly, I like Macadamia nuts but not Macadamian Politics - isn't there alrea
dy a aus.politics group on the net (thank goodness it's out of reach for me).
-- 
nsp00@juts.amdahl.com: 'All opinions mine - Not my employers...so there'

"This here's the Wattle, the symbol of our land.  You can stick it
 in a bottle, or you can hold it in your hand."  (MP - Circa 1970)
From: draskovi@usc.edu (Zoran Draskovic)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Helsinki Watch, February 13, 1992.
Date: 13 Aug 1992 20:07:09 -0700
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: girtab.usc.edu


His Excellency Franjo Tudjman
President of the Republic of Croatia
Radicev trg 2
41000 Zagreb
Croatia

Dear President Tudjman,

The U.S.Helsinki Watch Committee is deeply concerned by reports of
serious human rights abuses by forces responsible to the Croatian governement
and by individual extremists in Croatia.Our own investigations of these re-
ports,conducted during a series of fact-finding missions to Croatia in the past
year,indicate that many of these reports are well-founded.We call upon you to
investigate theabuses enumerated in this letter and to punish those responsible
for them.We call upon you to take immediate measures to ensure that such vio-
lations of human rights do not occur again.
The abuses described in this letter include violations of the laws of war in
the current conflict between Croatian and Serbian forces and the Yugoslav army,
including the summary execution of civilians and disarmed combatants;the to-
rture and mistreatment of detainees;arbitrary arrests and disappearances;de-
struction of civilian property and the killing of journalists covering the war.
Helsinki watch has also documented restrictions of freedom of expression and
the press and interferencewith the independence of the judiciary.Finally, we
are gravely concerned about harassment,discrimination and rising violence
against Serbs not engaged in the armed conflict in Croatia.

******************************************************************************