From: ljmorly@polaris.utu.fi (Laura Johanna Manninen)
Subject: Dan. 9 (was: Missionizing to 2-year-olds (was Re: knowing HaShem)
Organization: University of Turku
	<1992Jul27.144841.24701@watson.ibm.com>
Date: 28 Jul 92 16:58:42

In article <1992Jul27.144841.24701@watson.ibm.com> strom@watson.ibm.com (Rob Strom) writes:
> I am Jewish, but support religious pluralism.  While
> it may be intellectually interesting to discuss and
> debate with Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, or atheists,
> ultimately I am more interested in understanding
> others' views on religion than in changing them.

Thus, you believe that truth is relative. God is the Truth and He says:
Shma Israel, Hashem Eloheinu, Hashem echad ! 

BTW I fully agree with Bill Carlson and Steve Warren that positive relations
with Jews and others as well are good and important. Most of my Israeli
friends are secular atheists.

> *officially* repudiate it.  Then we can go back to having
> nice detached intellectual debates on what Daniel 9 means
> and so forth.

Good that you mentioned. Here is Dan. 9; both rabbinic and messianic 
interpretations; the former one refuted. If you want, I can re-post an
article written by Ruben Gonzalez about this same issue. (OK, Ruben ?)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: RJ view of Daniel 9
From: btiffany@pbs.org
Date: 1 May 92 16:35:04 GMT
Organization: PBS:Public Broadcasting Service, Alexandria, VA

>You want a Jewish interpretation of Daniel 9:25-26.
> 
>25:  And you shall know and comprehend:  From the emergence of
>the word to return and build Jerusalem until anointing the prince
>will be seven weeks, and for sixty-two weeks it will be rebuilt,
>street and moat, but in troubled times.

The NAS says:

	So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree
	[lit. word] to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the
	Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will
	be built again, with plaza [lit. streets] and moat, even in
	times of distress.

It says "seven weeks and 62 weeks".

9:25
          V'tedal   v'tas'kel  min-motza   davar  l'hashiv   v'liv'not
          Y'rushalayim  ad-mashiach  nagid  SHAVUIM  SHIV'AH V'SHAVUIM
          SHISHIM  USH'NAYIM  tashuv  v'niv'n'tah   r'chov   v'charutz
          uv'tzok haitim.

9:26
          V'achare   hashavuim  shishim  ush'nayim  yikaret   mashiach
          v'eyn  lo  v'hair v'hakodesh yash'chit am nagid haba v'kitzo
          vashetef v'ad ketz mil'chamah necheretzet sh'maymot.

>The Hebrew word for "weeks" is "shavuot", and it means "weeks",
>not "sevens" as you say.  Nonetheless, "shavuim shivim" is
>interpreted to mean seven weeks of years, or 49 years.  The
>anointing of the prince occurs after 49 + 2 years (mod arithme-
>tic), and the prince is either:

Mod arithmetic?  How do they come up with that?  I've been trying to figure
out how "49 + 2" comes into the picture, and I cannot find it in what Daniel
wrote.

>        1.  Cyrus (Rashi on Isaiah 45:1 and 13), or
>        2.  Yehoshua ben Yehotzadak, the kohan gadol (Rashi on
>            Megillah 10a), or
>        3.  Zerubabel ben Shealtiel, Governor of Judah (Sefer ha-
>            Geulah ch.3, p.282)
> 
>All three of these assumed their posts at the same time, the one
>given to Daniel by the angel.

And in the context of 9:24, of what significance are they?

>The 62 weeks of years is 434 plus 4 (mod arithmetic).  The city
>was rebuilt in troubled times (under the Persians, Greeks, and
>Romans).  The plain meaning of the verse separates 7 weeks of
>years from 62 weeks of years.  The prince is chosen after the
>first, and the city is rebuilt during the second.

Historically -- although it was never completed -- it was rebuilt in 49
years, during the time of Ezra and Nehemiah, amidst much harassment, as
described in their books.

>26:  And after the sixty-two weeks an anointed one will be cut
>off and will be no more; the people of the prince who comes will
>destroy the city and the Sanctuary, but his end shall come in a
>flood.  Until the end of war, desolation is decreed!

Hillel rightly discerned that the Messiah must come before the
destruction of the Temple, but he picked the wrong one.  Nevertheless,
it's perfectly clear that Messiah had to come before the Temple was
destroyed, which was in 70 CE.  So who was the Messiah?

>The phrase "an anointed one will be cut off" is "yikaret
>moshiach". This means the offering of sacrifices, represented by
>the anointed priesthood will stop (R. Saadiah Gaon in Emunot
>VeDeot, chp. 8). Alternatively, it may refer to King Agrippa II
>who was killed by the Romans.  In either case, it is different
>than the reference in the preceeding verse.

My goodness, what a stretch!  First of all, the Hebrew definitely means
"the Anointed One", not "an anointed one".  This is clear from the position
of the word in the sentence and the case.  It's not talking about
"sacrifices", but one sacrifice to end all sacrifices.  After all, 9:24
introduces this whole section by saying:

	Seventy weeks [or: units of seven] have been decreed for your people
	and your holy city, to finish [or: restrain] the transgression,
	to make an end of sin [another reading: seal up sins], to make
	atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness,
	to seal up vision and prophecy [lit. prophet], and to anoint the
	most holy place.

So!  When was an end made of sin?  More specifically, when was atonement
made for iniquity?  When was everlasting righteousness brought in, and by
what means?  What was it that sealed up this vision and prophecy?  How
would Agrippa have fit this context?

>Your understanding of the Hebrew word "karet" ie. "cut off" is
>mistaken.  It has nothing to do with dying without children.  The
>word is used repeatedly in the Pentatuch as punishment of the
>Divine Court, in contrast to a punishment of a human court.

Exactly!  As Isaiah says: "BUT THE LORD WAS PLEASED TO CRUSH HIM, PUTTING
HIM TO GRIEF; IF HE WOULD RENDER HIMSELF AS A GUILT OFFERING" (53:10), and,
"Surely our griefs He Himself bore, and our sorrows He carried; yet we
ourselves esteemed Him STRICKEN, SMITTEN OF GOD, AND AFFLICTED." (53:4)

This was indeed the punishment of the Divine court, which we deserved, and
Mashiach suffered that punishment on our behalf, satisfying divine
judgment and the requirement for righteouness!

"But He was pierced through (Heb. mecholel, "pierced" or "run through",
indicates a violent death) for our transgressions, He was crushed for our
iniquities; the chastening for our well-being feel upon Him, and by His
scourging we are healed.  All of us like sheep have gone astray, each of us
has turned to his own way; but THE LORD HAS CAUSED THE INIQUITY OF US ALL
TO FALL ON HIM."  (Isaiah 53:5-6)

>Now, I am not so naive to think that you picked these particular
>verses out of random curiosity.  There are a set of about thirty
>such references which Christians have used in disputations with
>Jews for well over 1,000 years.  Back in the old days, Jews were
>forced to answer questions like this under threat of death.

This is true.  There is no answer for this, and no justification.  The
Church must repent before the Jews!!

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
		Surely our griefs He Himself bore, and our sorrows He carried;
     /\		... He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was
____/__\____	crushed for our iniquities; the chastening for our well-being
\  / || \  /	fell upon Him, and by His scourging we are healed.  All of us
 \/--++--\/	like sheep have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own
 /\  ||  /\	way; but the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all to fall on
/  \ || /  \	Him. ... By His knowledge the Righteous One, My Servant, will
----\--/----	justify the many, as He will bear their iniquities.
     \/							-- Isaiah 53
		Bruce Tiffany

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- Laura
--
Lo-yishama od chamam b'artzech shod vashever bigvulayich vekarat
yeshuah (Yeshua) chomotayich ush'arayich t'hila.   -Isaiah 60:18

The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can
understand it ?   - Jeremiah 17:9