From: hakim@bigq.enet.dec.com (Kamran Hakim)
Subject: Re: Reply to  Bahaies  gang
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1992 11:14:28 GMT


SM=Seyyed Mahdavian
KH=Kamran Hakim

In article <1992Apr4.173818.10900@wuecl.wustl.edu>, seyyed@wuee1.wustl.edu 
(Seyyed Mahdavian) you write:

SM>How can you solve a contradiction with another contradiction?
SM>By all the argument above, one deduces that you claim that 
SM>"Khaatam" means "Ornament" and not "Seal" (I am not even commenting
SM>on whether your claim or your "assumption" above is correct or not). Yet you 
SM>later write:

SM>Which means that you accept that "Khaatam" means "Seal" !!

Seyyed, I am well aware of what I believe, and what I have said in
my reply to you. No demonstration is necessary. I was attempting to 
suggest that there may be other interpretations of the term "KhAtam" 
for you to consider. It is perfectly fine if you don't agree with
these meanings.

SM>There is no need to try to make dust by refering to Imam Ali's words, maybe
SM>you can get out of your contradictions safely! Just tell us what YOU believe
SM>in.						^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
  ^^^^
I BELIEVE that Prophet Muhammad ENDED or SEALED the cycle of Prophethood, 
meaning that after Him no one shall appear with the title of Prophet. This 
is why The Bab and Baha'u'llah are referred to Manifestations of God rather
than Prophets (i.e. Nabies), Apostles (i.e. Rasools) of God. Note that even 
the revelation of Muhammad is compared to that of Moses, yet, Ali and His 
sons are not called "prophets" like the prophets of Israel who came after 
Moses. They were instead referred to as Imams.

Please note that I am specifically addressing your question without
raising dust.

SM>You will find no interpretation of that verse by Sunni or Shi'a claiming
SM>that the Prophet(s) is only the ornament of the prophets and NOT the Seal
SM>of the prophets. 

Actually the interpretation of the term "KhAtam" being considered as
"ornament" is not a Baha'i belief (Baha'u'llah has specifically referred
to Prophet Muhammad as the Seal of the Prophets and not the Ornament of
the Prophets.), but a Muslim one (Both Shi'ah and Sunni theologians have 
referred to this topic.) Please allow me to offer you some examples:

Allamih Ahmad Hamedi-al-Mohammad, a well-known SUNNI Theologian discusses 
the term Khatam'u-Nabieen in his book, Tebyaan-va-Borhan, based on a 
commentary of Fat'hol-Ghadeer by Hafiz Mohhades-i-Shokani who says:

"All the Ghoraba use KhAtEm, while Athim use KhAtAm. KhAtEm in KhAtem'u-
 Nabeein means the Ender of Prophets, or the Seal of Prophets, while, 
 KhAtAm in KhAtam'u-Nabeein means ring and ornament. In essence Muhammad, 
 the Messenger of God, was the Ring or Ornament of (i.e. among) the 
 Prophets, due to His exalted station compared to other Prophets." 

The same book quotes from Dorr'ul-Mansoor of Allamih Jallal'u-Din Soivotti, 
who quotes Ayeshih, the wife of Muhammad, who said:

"Say KhAtAm-u-Nabeein (i.e. The Ring or Ornament of the Prophets), and 
never say no prophets shall come after Him (i.e. Muhammad)".

Among other SHI'AH sources there is a Hadith (tradition) recorded by 
Ibn-i-Shahr Ashoob in his book, "Managhib". The very same Hadith can also 
be found in vol IX of Bahar-ul-Anvar of Allamih Majlesi. This Hadith is 
from Imam Ali, (Peace be upon Him!), where He discusses the meaning of 
the term KhAtam-u-Nabieen. After describing the ascendancy of His own 
station, Ali says: 

"...Anyone who disagrees with me, has disagreed with God, and in arrogance 
has surpassed all others. No prophet has achieved the station of prophet-
hood except  through the KhAtam of Nabovvat (i.e. literally meaning prophet-
hood) he received from Muhammad. And KhAtam is a ring. Only after receiving 
the KhAtam (ring) of Nabovvat, one can be called a prophet. This is why 
Muhammad has been called Khatam'u-Nabieen in the Qur'an....." Then He says: 
"Muhammad is the Seyyed (master) of the Nabieen (prophets), and I am the 
Seyyed and master of the Vaseein (guardians and successors)."

Seyyed, I have not addressed this issue to a greater extent, hoping
that the point I have attempted to make is clear. Nevertheless I leave 
the choice of continuing the discussion to you.

SM>And it's not only that verse. There is also hadith accepted
SM>by Sunni and Shi'a that Mohammad (s) is indeed the last prophet. 

Yes! Indeed Prophet Muhammad is EXCLUSIVELY referred to as the Seal of 
the Prophets in the Baha'i Scriptures.

SM>Anyway, the whole discussion above was useless, because you are accepting
SM>that my translation of the verse was indeed correct. 

Yes.

SM>Then why did you waste the
SM>bandwidth? Do you know what we call this? We call it "Maghlateh" or "Safsateh".

I apologize to the readership of this newsgroup and specifically to 
you for my misguided attempt to answer a theological question in a 
theological manner.

SM>Arabic language and culture is very suitable for comparison and metaphor. 
SM>Even in Farsi we sometimes say: "you are Shemr" . We obviously don't mean
SM>that "You are really Shemr in body, spirit or soul", we mean "You are criminal".
SM>Or when the Prophet (s) says: "I am from Hossein and Hossein is from me", or
SM>when Qur'an says: "God is THE LIGHT of the heaven ...". The Imam's words,
SM>the Prophet's words and even the Qur'an have a lot of metaphor and comparison.
SM>There are "Mohkam" as well as "Moteshaabeh". But you don't need to be so
SM>poetic at this time.

Seyyed we are in total agreement. Isn't this wonderful. By the way, thank
you for calling me Shemr :-).

SM>Again I think that you are changing the subject of the discussion, and making
SM>dust in order to cover the truth. Instead of twisting the words of the
SM>Prophet(s) tell me what YOU mean by saying that:

KH> Baha'is, furthermore, believe that the Return of Issa-bni Maryamm was 
KH> also fulfilled according to the teachings of the Qur'an and the Hadith 
KH> few years later in the person of Baha'u'llah.

SM>I ask YOU, how can Baha-u-llah be the son of Mariam?

As you have so eloquently described above, both Arabic and Farsi are 
metaphorical in nature. The following quotation from Abdu'l-Baha 
describes how Baha'u'llah could be the return of Jesus, Son of Mary:

"In the Divine Scriptures and Holy Books 'return' is spoken of, but 
 the ignorant have not understood the meaning, and  those who believed 
 in reincarnation have made conjectures on the subject. For  what the 
 divine Prophets meant by 'return' is not the return of the essence,  
 but that of the qualities; it is not the return of the Manifestation, 
 but that  of the perfections. In the Gospel it says that John (i.e. 
 John the Baptist), the son of Zacharias, is Elias. These words do not 
 mean the return of the rational soul and personality of Elias in the 
 body of John, but rather that the perfections and qualities of Elias 
 were manifested and appeared in John. 

 A lamp shone in this room last night, and when tonight another lamp 
 shines, we say the light of last night is again shining....It is the 
 same with the spring of last year, when blossoms, flowers and sweet-
 scented herbs bloomed, and delicious fruits were brought forth; next 
 year we say that those delicious fruits have come back, and those 
 blossoms, flowers and blooms have returned and come again. This does 
 not mean that  exactly the same particles composing the flowers of 
 last year have after decomposition, been again combined and have then 
 come back and returned. On the contrary, the meaning is that the 
 delicacy, freshness, delicious perfumes and wonderful color of the 
 flowers of last year are visible and apparent in exactly the same 
 manner in the flowers of this year. Briefly, this expression (i.e. 
 return) refers only to the resemblance and likeness which exists 
 between the former and latter flowers... Upon you be greetings and 
 praise."
				Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions

I hope the answer is satisfactory. Please note that I am directly
addressing your question.

SM>Now you are really confusing things together. If you said it about Bab, I would 
SM>say OK, you mean that Bab (i.e. Mahdi) WILL fill the earth with justice, not 
SM>during his life, but after his death. Although this has a lot of conflicts with
SM>Islamic believes, at least it does make sense. 

I appreciate your fairness.

KH> Of course you are welcome to believe whatever you want. However, I'd
KH> like to respectfully remind you that you are totally missing the
KH> point in this discussion. Baha'is do not even participate in politics.
KH                            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

SM>Like the famous Bahai: Hoveyda ?!!!
SM>Anyway, I think the politicians are making the best use (abuse) of this
SM>party. I have heard that there is a book which has disclosed documents
SM>about the transactions of Bab and the English empire. 
SM>I also have heard that Bahaies have nice relationship with zionists.
SM>For people who are confused about the origin of bahaism (England, Russia,
SM>Israel, ... which one?!), the answer is simple. Nowadays it is very 
SM>customary to steal ideas, patents, etc. . At first England did the
SM>innovation. But then others found the idea very neat and useful. So
SM>they "borrowed" it (with the permission of England of course), and they
SM>began to invest on it.

Seyyed, consider the possibility that similar to the meaning of the 
"Seal of the Prophets", your information on the Baha'i Faith may be 
a bit on the rusty side. I truly appreciate your efforts to offer 
another perspective on the Baha'i Faith. I'd like to end this reply 
with the following words:

"Consort with all men, O people of Baha, in a spirit of friendliness and 
 fellowship. If ye be aware of a certain truth, if ye possess a jewel, of
 which others are deprived, share it  with them in a language of utmost 
 kindliness and good-will. If it be accepted, if it fulfill its purpose,
 your object is attained. If anyone should refuse it, leave him unto
 himself, and beseech God to guide him. Beware lest ye deal unkindly
 with him. A kindly tongue is the lodestone of the hearts of men. It is 
 the bread of the spirit, it clotheth the words with meaning, it is the 
 fountain of the light of wisdom and understanding."

			Baha'u'llah, Epistle to the Son of the Wolf p. 15
Warm regards,

Kamran Hakim
Newsgroups: soc.culture.iranian,soc.culture.iranian,soc.human.rights