From: pef@dcs.qmw.ac.uk (Panayotis Fouliras; TA PhD)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.europe
Subject: Re: Scopjian Flag
Date: 16 Nov 92 13:33:52 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Dept, QMW, University of London

In <Bxt397.DrK@gabriel.keele.ac.uk> cla04@seq1.keele.ac.uk (A.T. Fear) writes:
[..]
>evidence we could think about the fact that the ancient Greeks
>themselves, and not only those opposed to Macedonian expansion such as
>Demosthenes, but also philoMacedonians such as Isocrates, did not regard
>the Macedonians as Greek and surely they were in a better position to
>know that than modern day ideologues.  We then have the ancient sources
>suggesting that the Macedonian language was not Greek, something
>supported by modern philological investigation.  In terms of archaeology
              ^^^^^^
Modern? What did the ancients themselves say? Who are these
modern people? What is their background? I could come out
tomorrow and claim anything, just because I hold a PhD in
history from Micky Mouse University, or because I have a
personal motive (non-scientific).

Hard evidence please. The Demosthenes argument has been discussed
numerous times and the answer is well known. Isocrates was not
"philo-Macedonian", but a pan-hellen (calling for union of
Greeks instead of the civil wars of his time). After all, why
did Alexander send the 100(I think) Persian shields to Athens
as a trophy with the well known enscription of "Greeks apart
from Lacedaemons (=Spartans)" and did not mention Macedonians
separately? The biggest part of the Greek army was his anyway.
No fear there. So, get serious for a change.

>the Sindos burials from the late archaic period show strong Balkan
>(Thracian or Paeonian?) features which again might be suggestive of the
                                              *****
>origins of the ancient Macedonians.  I could go on, but think this is
>enough to show the question is at least an open one.  In fact the only
>preposterous stance on this issue is the one which unthinkingly asserts
>that the ancient Macedonians were unproblematically Greek.

Even you are not certain about the value of your arguments.

>I'm interested that those taking the Greek government's propaganda line
>on this issue frequently seem to labour under the delusion that those
>who disagree with them have personal problems. However perhaps this
>tells us more about this group than their opponents. My only problem is
>that as an ancient historian I dislike seeing my subject prostituted for
>modern political aims especially when the outcome of this is human
>misery and alas an ever increasing liklihood of war.

The above is exactly my point. I do not need any brainwashing
from any government to speak with pride about my forefathers, be it
ancient, medieval or contemporary (e.g. El Alamein, Tunis,
Italy, D-day, Korea).

As to "your subject", it is hardly yours to own it. And claims such
as the above tell the difference between historians and "historians",
who allow personal reasons to creep in. You better go back
to Thucidides for a lesson.

>Andy

With all due respect

Panayotis
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