From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: Jews For Germans
Originator: news@nimaster
Reply-To: roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig)
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1993 05:11:10 GMT

In article <1993Jan22.210237.7887@island.COM> green@island.COM (Robert Greenstein) writes:
>In article <46302@unlisys.in-berlin.de> stingray@unlisys.in-berlin.de (Christian Lampl) writes:
>>green@island.COM (Robert Greenstein) writes:

>>>>In the Vietnam war, for example, there were members of
>>>>the U.S. Marines who raped women or shot civil persons.
>>>>Do ya want to judge the people who did this cruelty or do ya want
>>>>every member of the U.S. Marines. 

>>>So now we're supposed to let members of the SS off the hook?
>>The members who haven't done a crime, yes.

>The crime is membership in a criminal organization.

Only in totalitarian states is membership in an organization a crime.
Here in the US, even if you belong to the KKK, say, that's not a crime.

The Nuremberg judges recognized that, and never prosecuted anyone on
grounds of belonging to the NSDAP or the SS.  Specific crimes were 
required before prosecution.

Your standards are those of McCarthy and Stalin.  Do you mean that?

>>>About your grandfather, you said:

>>>>Maybe I'm just a bit stupid, but can someone please
>>>>tell me what is his guilt ? Fear ? Unknowledge ?

>>>You are very stupid if you think that someone who joins the SS is
>>>not guilty of anything. In an earlier post, you claimed the SS were
>>>just soldiers, like the Wehrmacht. Now you say you can understand
>>>why it was declared a criminal organization, but still your grandfather
>>>loved his mother. How could he be a criminal? You say he was driven by
>>>fear, yet no one forced him to join the SS. He wasn't forced to get
>>>that tattoo, like the concentration camp victims were.
>>OK.. Slowly now.

>>I said some soldiers of the SS were cruel and other were just
>>soldiers like the ones of the Wehrmacht.

>Rather like the Marines in Vietnam, eh?

Not completely unlike them.  However, you continue on this line, 
despite documentation posted to the newsgroup that makes it clear 
that many SS members *were* just soldiers.  Some SS units were
renamed Wehrmacht units, as you'd know if you'd read that documentation.

Do you have a point to make here?

>>I can understand that the SS as organization was declared as criminal,
>>because their goals were cruel and full of bestiality. This does
>>not mean that every member had this goals too, as long as he doesn't
>>know of the cruel goals. 

>Well they didn't think it was the Boy Scouts they were joining.

Again, do you have a point to make?  Why not tell us what Christian's 
grandfather DID think.  

Or don't you know?

>>I didn't say that my grandfather can't be a criminal because he loved
>>his mother. I just said that for me somebody whos guilt is not proven
>>is without guilt. Maybe you have a different opinion about that.
>>I never said that he was driven by fear to join the SS.
>>Right from the beginning I said that he joined it voluntarily.
>>Instead of explaining to me how he could know everything
>>we know nowadays you have nothing better to do to call 
>>me a Nazi or stupid.

>*You* suggested you might be a bit stupid. I just followed up on it :-)

Keep going.  Sometime you'll get around to your argument.

>Now if you can find the quote where I called you a Nazi, I will 
>publicly apologize.

You still haven't told us about your legal ideas concerning
membership in the SS.  Where do these ideas come from?

>>>>Well, it's very easy to judge things afterwards, but remember:

>>I *never* said that Nazism had its good points.
>>I just said that the Nazis knew how to win the masses and that
>>I can understand how things could have happened and that

>Well maybe this is where we really differ. I *can't* understand how
>such things could have happened. And it disturbs me when I hear people 
>trying to explain it away in terms of the economy, Hitler's charisma, 
>everybody does it, etc, etc.

Who did that?  Who "explained it away"?  Twisting people's words isn't
going to get you many converts.  

But if you wish to find out about the period, you must find out about 
it.  That includes studying the history, economy, tehcnology, etc.
of the time.

>Its like, yes it was awful, but.... 

But?  But what?

>No Buts.

So easy to say.  Can you defend *anyone*'s life unequivocally?  Have 
you never taken a step in the direction of expediency rather than 
justice and courage?  If so, you're unique on earth.  

A little more humility.  You've butted a few butts in your time, 
I'm sure.

Roger