HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: murraysd@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Stephen D Murray)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.europe
Subject: "Ethnic Cleansing"
Date: 12 Aug 92 12:21:23 GMT
Organization: Glasgow University Computing Science Dept.



       I have been watching the news reports of the events in Yugoslavia
for some time now, and although the news I get is probably not very 
accurate or comprehensive, I have been rather disturbed by a recent 
developement;  I first heard the phrase 'ethnic cleansing' a few weeks ago;
  I understand (please correct me if I am wrong) this to mean
 the process of turfing people out of their own homes in order that others
can come and live there. But why call it 'cleansing'? Why not refer to it
as it really is, a despicable crime of invasion,murder and yes, genocide.
  Why is no-one using the word GENOCIDE ? That is the real meaning of
"Ethnic cleansing."  Cleansing is something you do when you wash in the morning, something which refreshes ,purifies and is a good thing. To associate such
a concept with mass murder and brutal oppression is to my mind despicable;
 is it the case that the media are trying to make the Serbian atrocities
(I realise that there may be atrocities on both sides, but only have received
evidence of Serbia's crimes) seem acceptable by using such language, in order
to make their policies of doing 'sod all' more socially acceptable?

     What I would like to know is who invented the phrase "ethnic cleansing"
in the first place and why- I cannot accept that it has merely arisen as a term
of reference to what is going on in Yugoslavia. If as I suspect it is the
 non-Yugoslavian media who have invented it for their own ends, then what
are we to expect next? Referring to the Nazi extermination methods of WW2
as 'bath day' or 'genetic streamlining?' . What is needed in Yugoslavia is
a full scale invasion by experienced troops similar to the Russian intervention
in Moldavia last week. Strangely, this intervention was not reported in Britain
in any paper except the European (as far as I could tell), and hardly anyone
reads the European. I wonder if it would have been reported if it had been\
a disaster instead of the total success it was.

         My view is that the energies of the governments of Europe should
be going into finding a fast way of stopping the genocide and not thinking
up chic catchphrases to make invasion and mass murder socially acceptable.

      If anyone knows where the phrase "ethnic cleansing" originated,
I would be most grateful if they could mail me and tell me.

   All this is of course only my opinion and I'm sorry if it causes any offence.

    <murraysd@dcs.gla.ac.uk>

   Stephen D Murray.



C
C
of reference to what is going on in Yugoslavia;I
Newsgroups: soc.culture.europe
From: kevin@clsi.COM (Kevin Cameron)
Subject: Re: limit
Originator: kevin@dubhe
Organization: CAD Language Systems Inc.
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 92 20:11:46 GMT


Could people please combine there responses into single postings (after thinking
about what they have to say), otherwise I will have to start using "kill" on
authors who a) don't think before they contribute, and b) post lots of small
unnecessary articles. I enjoy reading soc.culture.europe but its getting very
difficult to get through, and I do want to hear everyone's opinion.

Kev.
(A European Abroad)
 
-- 
Kevin Cameron          CLSI, Suite 100, 5457 Twin Knolls Rd., MD 21045, USA
kevin@clsi.com         Tel: (USA) (410) 992 5700 (- 5709) X229
uunet!clsi.com!kevin   Fax:       (410) 992 3536
----------------------------------------------------------- Reality Is virtual
From: hubey@pilot.njin.net (Hubey)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.europe
Subject: More on BiH
Date: 19 Aug 92 01:08:21 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.


From clarinews@clarinet.com (STEVE GERSTEL) Tue Aug 18 13:31:22 1992
Subject: Ethnic cleansing by Serbs in Bosnia-Hercegovina near goal

	WASHINGTON (UPI) -- The ``ethnic cleansing'' by Serbs in Bosnia-
Hercegovina has substantially achieved its goal through widespread
atrocities, massacres and mass evacuations of Moslems, a staff report by
the Senate Foreign Relations Committee concluded Tuesday.
	The campaign has created a Serb-inhabited region contiguous to Serbia
that occupies 70 percent of Bosnia-Hercegovina and a corridor connecting
Serbia with Serb-inhabited territory in the Krajina region of Croatia.
	``The new Serb territories were created by forcibly expelling the
Moslem populations that had been the overwhelming numerical majority in
the regions of Bosnia-Hercegovina closest to Serbia.
	Sen. Claborne Pell, D-R.I., head of the Senate Foreign Relations
Committee, released the documents and said, ``This is the first U.S.
government report documenting the extent of horrors associated with the
ethnic cleansing campaign being carried out by the Serbs against the
Moslem population of Bosnia-Hercegovina.''
....
.......
	The documents said ``ethnic cleansing'' was carried out with 
``widespread atrocities'' and that ``random and selected killings are a
routine part of the process of evacuating Muslim villages in Bosnia-
Hercegovina.
	``In some villages, there were organized massacres of the Muslim
population,'' the report said. ``We believe the death toll associated
with forcible removal of the Muslim village population of Bosnia-
Hercegovina far exceeds the death tolls from the bombardment of cities
or from killings in prison camps.
	``Unfortunately, this most lethal aspect of ethnic cleansing has
received the least amount of public attention,'' the investigators said.
.......

	``Killings in the camps often appear to be recreational and sadistic,
'' the report said. ``There is evidence that paramilitary groups from
Serbia and Montenegro have entered certain camps, often drunk and by
night, for the purpose of torturing, killing and raping.''
	......
	``In no sense, however, does the violence against the Serbs compare
to the atrocities inflicted on the Muslims, nor are conditions in Muslim
or Croation prison camps comparable to those in the Serbian death camps.
	......
-- 

	mark	


   hubey@pilot.njin.net                   hubey@apollo.montclair.edu
 ...!rutgers!pilot!hubey                  hubey@logos.montclair.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.europe
From: luciano@athos.Berkeley.EDU (Luciano Lavagno)
Subject: Russian intervention in Moldavia (was: Re: "Ethnic Cleansing")
Reply-To: luciano@athos.Berkeley.EDU (Luciano Lavagno)
Organization: UC Berkeley IC CAD Group
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 20:32:19 GMT

In article <1992Aug12.122123.25414@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk>,
murraysd@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Stephen D Murray) writes:
[...]
> What is needed in Yugoslavia is
>a full scale invasion by experienced troops similar to the Russian
>intervention
>in Moldavia last week. Strangely, this intervention was not reported in
>Britain
>in any paper except the European (as far as I could tell), and hardly anyone
>reads the European. I wonder if it would have been reported if it had been\
>a disaster instead of the total success it was.

Do you have any more information on this intervention ?
E.g. who decided it, against what, how many trrops and where exactly did it
occur (cities, countryside, both, ...).
I do not know anything about it, but if successful, it seems very interesting.
Ciao !
Luciano
-- 
Luciano Lavagno            luciano@ic.Berkeley.EDU            +1-510-642-5012
Dept. of EECS, 207-69 Cory Hall, Univ. of California, Berkeley, CA 94720, USA
From: ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis )
Newsgroups: soc.culture.europe
Subject: Re: >Re: >Re: OMEDEI SUPPORTS MACEDONIA
Date: 14 Aug 92 18:21:38 GMT
Article-I.D.: news.BszKC3.2rw
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana

isac@rieska.oulu.fi (Juha Iisakka) writes:

>In article <Bsu3LJ.7E2@news.cso.uiuc.edu> ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis ) writes:

>> >Besides I have never seen Macedonians/Skopjians using
>> >language such yours - only Greeks. Strange?
>> 
>>  Well, I've seen president Bush using the same language.
>>  Strange? 

>Are you proud of that?
>People compare you and Mr. Bush?

 Millions of Americans are pround of their president. Whats wrong
 trying to use his dictionary?

>--
>Juha Iisakka					isac@rieska.oulu.fi
>My opinions are mine - not my employer's
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------



-- 
---> Panos Tamamidis
     University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Xref: sparky soc.culture.europe:7534 soc.culture.romanian:793 talk.politics.soviet:7143
From: hellstro@tnclus.tele.nokia.fi
Subject: Re: Should Hasan B Mutlu have his posting privileges yanked? 
Followup-To: soc.culture.turkish
Organization: Nokia Telecommunications.
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 11:14:30 GMT

> Follow ups to soc.culture.turkish . The ***only*** newsgroup that
> Hasan B Mutlu should be posting to.

I agree, but the newsgroup soc.culture.phenomena.boring
should suit him as well.

_Jan_

---------------------------------------------------------------------
This is my opinion - not my employer's
From: hubey@pilot.njin.net (Hubey)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.europe
Subject: Re: Hats off to Meggy
Date: 13 Aug 92 22:39:52 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

In article <1992Aug13.214159.26649@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU> luciano@athos.Berkeley.EDU (Luciano Lavagno) writes:

>That was a military INVASION, not ethnic strife. The two things are different.

It's pointless to argue that force cannot bring solutions. It would be
OK if you argued using moralistic judgments. Killing off all
the people causing problems is guaranteed to stop violence. Note that
I haven't used any moralistic arguments; just plain facts.

The fact is that military force stops invasions, makes invasions possible
and also can stop ethnic stife. The only question is how much force
is morally tolerable or justifiable under the circumstances.


>I already commented on the controllability/observability pre-conditions even in
> control theory. Furthermore positive/negative are not MORAL terms in control
> theory.

Positive/Negative feedback have to to with continuing/reversing the
trend and nothing to do with morality. 


> I would even claim that reacting with violence to violence is POSITIVE feedback
> in control-theoretic terms, and as such it leads to instability and blow-up.



You can claim anything you want. You have to be correct to convince
people. Reversing a trend is possible only with negative feedback
not positive feedback. Positive feedback will only increase the
trend. Positive feedback to violence will always (not temporarily i.e.
transiently) increase the violence. Negative feedback will in the
end, put a stop to it. 

It would take too long to continue.
-- 

	mark	


   hubey@pilot.njin.net                   hubey@apollo.montclair.edu
 ...!rutgers!pilot!hubey                  hubey@logos.montclair.edu
From: dam@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (David Morning)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.europe
Subject: Re: What kind of people are Turks?
Date: 18 Aug 92 09:34:05 GMT
Organization: Glasgow University Computing Science Dept.

cza@maestro.bellcore.com (Cengiz Akgun) writes:

>In article <1992Aug17.163811.19331@hasler.ascom.ch> kevinh@hslrswi.hasler.ascom.ch writes:
>>
>>In article <1992Aug17.141344.4142@porthos.cc.bellcore.com>, cza@prefect.uucp (Cengiz Akgun) writes:
>>Why for once will a Turk not address what is under discussion, is it
>>that impossible?, rather than just insult the person he doesn't like
>>the views/opinions of.

>Unfortunately, Mutlu has adopted the policy of company
>name dragging into the discussions (as in IBM case) for
>his avenge since his company AT&T was used against him.

Mutlu lost his account at AT&T because he forged an address that belonged to
another company, namely sarp@aic.com, a registered domain belonging to a
company called Analysts International, and used it to post post his usual
inflammatory and insulting material. When the Sys Admin at AIC found someone
was making unauthorised use, he, the sysadmin, posted an apology to the net
pointing out that these (the Mutlu) postings didn't come from aic.com.

The result? Mutlu attacked him in his usual style referring to him as 
'gum brain' and various other insults, the sysadmin lodged a formal complaint
with AT&T, which was the source of these forgeries, and Mutlu lost his account.

Mutlu brought all this on himself by his stupid forging, no one, other than
the people whose domain was being forged, used AT&T against him.


>Of course, two wrongs  do not negate each other.
>If one wants to pick a bone with HBM, should do so on
>individual basis.

This is all very well, but Mutlu appears to have developed a habit of adding
terms in his postings such as 'we, the Turkish people, demand that..', a
phrase which would convey the impression that somehow Mutlu is representative
of the Turkish people. Given that for many people on the net English is not
their first language, it's easy to see how phrases like this get misinterpreted.

>>Does HBM (and the author of the article i'm responding too) really represent
>>the honest,typical, middle of the road Turk's view/attitude. I don't think so
>>but we have very little evidence to the contrary. 

Read some of Mark Hubey's articles if you want to see the other side of the
coin. There *are* people in sct a bit more reasoned than Mutlu, unfortunatly
there's a tendency for them to get swamped by noise.
-- 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.europe
From: hubey@pilot.njin.net (Hubey)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.europe
Subject: Senator D'Amato
Date: 16 Aug 92 01:02:55 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.


From clarinews@clarinet.com (UPI) Fri Aug 14 18:20:56 1992

	NEW YORK (UPI) -- U.S. Sen. Alfonse D'Amato said Friday the United
Nations and the world community must provide more than humanitarian aid
to war-torn Bosnia-Hercegovina, sending in troops if necessary to stop
the bloodshed.
......
	The two-term Republican senator said President Bush should show the
same willingness that he did when he sent troops to wrest Kuwait from
Saddam Hussein's grasp last year.
	D'Amato also lambasted reports that military intervention in the
region would lead to another long ground war like Vietnam. ``I'm tired
of hearing this is another Vietnam. It is not.''
	D'Amato advocated bombing military industrial targets in Serbia to 
``cut their deadly supplies,'' saying that getting food and medicine to
the people was not good enough.
	.....
-- 

	mark	


   hubey@pilot.njin.net                   hubey@apollo.montclair.edu
 ...!rutgers!pilot!hubey                  hubey@logos.montclair.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.europe
From: isac@rieska.oulu.fi (Juha Iisakka)
Subject: Re: >Re: >Re: OMEDEI SUPPORTS MACEDONIA
Organization: Oulun yliopisto
	<Bsu3LJ.7E2@news.cso.uiuc.edu>
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 08:18:58 GMT

In article <Bsu3LJ.7E2@news.cso.uiuc.edu> ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis ) writes:
> >In article <BssD4n.150@news.cso.uiuc.edu> ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis ) writes:
> 
> >> 
> >>  Since you smart ass think that Solun is shorter than Thessaloniki,
> >>  I think that Sommar* is shorter than Sommarskong. Got it?
> >> 
> >>  I would also appreciate if you could SHUT UP AND CLOSE YOUR MOUTH when you
> >>  don't know the subject. 
> >> 
> 
> >Congratulations!
> >Mr Sommarskog has allways been correct when he has presented
> >his opinions. If you cannot present your opinions without
> >such language, ask someone else present them.
> 
> >Somehow I have started to believe the Greece are not any more
> >one of the most civilized country in the world.
> 
> >Besides I have never seen Macedonians/Skopjians using
> >language such yours - only Greeks. Strange?
> 
>  Well, I've seen president Bush using the same language.
>  Strange? 

Are you proud of that?
People compare you and Mr. Bush?

--
Juha Iisakka					isac@rieska.oulu.fi
My opinions are mine - not my employer's
-------------------------------------------------------------------------



Newsgroups: soc.culture.europe
From: junikka@schaefer.math.wisc.edu (Jari Junikka)
Subject: Re: WANTED:cheap shipper to move USA>BRD
Organization: Univ. of Wisconsin Dept. of Mathematics
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 92 19:18:39 GMT

I'd appreciate, if you let me know what you've learned
about shipping stuff to Europe. 

thanks,

jari
(junikka@math.wisc.edu)
From: marian@vms.huji.ac.il
Newsgroups: soc.culture.europe,soc.culture.romanian,talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Romania or Roumania ?
Date: 19 Aug 92 08:09:24 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: The Hebrew University of Jerusalem

> I see that the issue of the "correct" English spelling (ROMANIA
> or ROUMANIA) is brought up.
>
> But back to the spelling. Webster gives both ROMANIA and
> ROUMANIA as a variant. My edition of the concise OXFORD
> (which is old) gives ROUMANIA and I have seen an English-
> German dictionary (Cassell-1978) spelling RUMANIA with
> the ROUMANIA variation.
> Perhaps some linguist could enlighten us on this subject.
>
> Mihai Dorobantu


Hi,
I am not a linguist, but I read in the "TIME" magazine 2 years ago roughly
that someone complained about the spelling of our country name and insisted
to be written as ROMANIA. Since then, I observed that "TIME" always spells
the name as ROMANIA.

Marian Dodu
Mathematician
Hebrew University,
Jerusalem
From: hubey@pilot.njin.net (Hubey)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.europe
Subject: Re: Hats off to Meggy
Date: 13 Aug 92 22:11:14 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

In article <1992Aug13.201525.23730@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU> luciano@athos.Berkeley.EDU (Luciano Lavagno) writes:

> This is the usual point that comes up when there is a debate whether some
> "official" entity (such as police, army, etc.) should use (more) violence
> against some "illegal" entity (such as criminals, terrorists, etc.).
The claim is that the criminals are violent, so there is need for some violence
> to stop them. 
> While the claim may have some appeal, it seems that in general violence
> generates more violence. So the "official" entity should use more restraint
> than its "illegal" counterpart.

It's not clear at all. If you mean that the use of violence to
counter violence is part of the "generates more violence" syndrome
then, it's useless since it is obviously deemed necessary to 
suppress the original violence. If however you mean that the violence
will keep on escalating, it's a simplistic answer.

If for example, we find that there's one student in a school who
is fond of beating up on everyone, all we have to do is to take
him out of school (using violence if necesssary) and there'll
be no more violence at the school due to him. So, it doesn't
generate more violence.

Ditto for belligerent countries (actually countries with a belligerent
leadership). There's something called appeasement. Sometimes it
works, sometimes it doesn't.


> Moreover, there are certain legal limits that must NEVER be trespassed by
>anybody who claims to represent "the people", as those same people would never
> have given them the power to trespass those limits (see, for example, the
> Iran-Contra affair in the US, or the various "deviations" of the secret
> services in Italy to allegedly support neo-fascist groups).

It's not clear what you mean here. What limits?  Absolutes are
difficult to find in this world (except for some physical constants
and mathematics).

There are certain rules that humans normally try to obey during
normal living. Sometimes they're heuristic rules collected over centuries;
sometimes they're based on certain sets of principles. The principles,
like many things in life, are either merely fashion, or are based
on what are purported to be absolute truths (i.e. science).

In most cases they turn out to be fashion since it's not easy to
find principles that last forever. 


>So even if the IRA shoots and bombs indiscriminately, this is no justification
> for the police or the army to do the same.

We are in agreement here.
-- 

	mark	


   hubey@pilot.njin.net                   hubey@apollo.montclair.edu
 ...!rutgers!pilot!hubey                  hubey@logos.montclair.edu
From: draskovi@usc.edu (Zoran Draskovic)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.europe
Subject: Detention Camps
Date: 12 Aug 1992 12:44:58 -0700
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: girtab.usc.edu


 BANJA LUKA, Bosnia-Hercegovina (UPI) -- A British opposition party
leader Tuesday ended a private inquiry into alleged human rights
violations at Serb-run detention camps, saying that he found poor
conditions but NO evidence of systematic torture and killing at the
locations he visited.

    Paddy Ashdown, a member of Parliament and head of the Liberal
Democratic Party, returned to Belgrade after inspecting two camps where
Muslim Slavs and other non-Serbs are being held by Serbian forces
fighting to rip a self-declared Serbian state out of newly independent
Bosnia-Hercegovina.

    "Broadly, I believe that GENEVA CONVENTION IS BEING UPHELD, and from
what I can tell, it is being followed to the absolute limits that it is
POSSIBLE to do," Ashdown said late Monday after visiting the Manjaca
detention center, near the Serbian stronghold of Banja Luka, where some
3,500 Muslim Slavs are currently held.

    "The conditions have visibly improved in comparison to Omarska,"
said Ashdown refering to another nearby detention center, where a large
number of emaciated Muslim Slav prisoners of war were recently found.
	But, Ashdown said that many Geneva Convention articles cannot be
upheld at Manjaca because of the SEVERE LACK OF FOOD AND MEDICINE across
all of war-torn Bosnia-Hercegovina.

    "If we want those camps to be operated to standards that we would
recognize, we have to see what we can provide," he said.

     On Sunday, Ashdown visited the Kula prison behind Serbian lines
outside the capital, Sarajevo.

     Ashdown contended that his visit and the outrage in the West over
reports of widespread abuses at Serb-run detention centers would
increase pressure on Serbian leaders to abolish an estimated 500 prison
camps run by undisciplined paramilitary units not under their control.

     During the one-hour tour of Manjaca, Ashdown spoke with a number of
prisoners, although always in the presence of their guards.

     Many were emaciated, apparently from a lack of food, their faces
pale, their eyes dull.

     They are housed in three barn-like structures, about 500 to each.
They said they are fed twice daily and are allowed to take showers every
15 days.

     Ashdown said he did not believe the commander of the camp was
competent enough to be running the facility.

     "Lieutenant Colonel Bozidar Popovic looks like a front-line solder
given a job he does not understand, in my view, and almost certainly
Russian-trained," said Ashdown. "Probably yesterday, somebody thrust
the Geneva Convention into his hands."
From: bucur@pollux.usc.edu (alexander bucur)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.europe,soc.culture.romanian,talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Romania or Roumania ?
Date: 18 Aug 1992 06:51:01 -0700
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: pollux.usc.edu

In article <1992Aug18.082128.28961@kth.se> mihai@nada.kth.se (Mihai Dorobantu) writes:

>other points of view or informations. So perhaps Sasha Bucur
>should not be so hard on Erland Sommarskog's usage of
>ROUMANIA. I am sure that it is no plot of the Hungarians or
>other foreign agencies!

I apologize if I sounded harsh.  It is not in my nature to be harsh on people.

However, I believe that there are many misconceptions in the world about 
Romania, and for that reason I felt that I should stand up and try to show
what the Romanians call their country.  Very often in issues like "names of 
places" dictionaries are not the best place to refer to since they just cover
what people use more often, rather than what is a correct spelling.

As for the Gypsy influences there are many people around the world that say
that Romanians are Gypsies (heard it more than once).  This kind of "facts"
make me so angry sometimes.

Sasha Bucur

P.S. Again, Erland I am sorry if I sounded harsh, please accept my apologies.


Newsgroups: soc.culture.europe