HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: msmorris@watsci.UWaterloo.ca (Mike Morris)
Subject: Re: Morally good hypertext
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 14:06:28 GMT

                                  Wednesday, the 23rd of December, 1992

John McCarthy writes:
  Part of Mike Morris's problem is an apparent belief that anyone who
  bothered to get the facts would realize that Ronald Reagan was all
  wrong.  There are plenty of people with quite detailed knowledge
  and no special interests who agreed with Reagan's program. I am
  one of them.  Unfortunately, I cannot say that everyone who takes
  the trouble to learn the facts widely available will agree with
  me.  There are some very smart and knowledgeable people with quite
  different opinions.

Especially given the alternatives that American voters had, I can well
understand your position, John.  But, I consider SDI ditzy beyond
belief, the operating a private war in Nicaragua against
the explicit intent of Congress beyond unconstitutional, and the
true conservative's selling point---downsizing government, getting
big government ``off the backs of the American people''---a joke
in Reagan's case. If I had thought he would have even *argued*
the latter point with Congress, instead of just get on television
and say that's what he was doing, I might have voted for the man.

John McCarthy writes:
  I don't think that this inability of smart people to agree is a
  permanent phenomenon.  The fact is that no correct comprehensible
  theory of economics and politics has been developed.  I hope that some
  day politics and economics will be no more controversial than physics,
  but I don't think we are close.

Well, this is probably where we disagree the most strongly. I think
there is no correct comprehensible theory of economics or politics
because such a theory would be inconsistent with human nature, and
demonstratably so. I am not invoking hereby a ``ghost in the machine''
and I see nothing militating against a pile of electronics behaving
in some measure as human beings behave. I just think that human behaviour
is fundamentally inscrutable to *scientific* investigation. Correct
theories in the human sciences would of course prove me wrong.

                Mike Morris
       (msmorris@watsci.uwaterloo.ca)


Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: tmaddox@netcom.com (Tom Maddox)
Subject: Re: Holiday reading
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 07:59:04 GMT

In article <1992Dec25.132012.24506@klaava.Helsinki.FI> amnell@klaava.Helsinki.FI (Marko Amnell) writes:
>Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
>Subject: Holiday reading (was Re: Books for Christmas)
>References: <1992Dec16.162051.24157@nas.nasa.gov> <BzF02x.Lnn@mach1.wlu.ca> <1992Dec17.202440.7463@u.washington.edu> <BzG05u.16s@mach1.wlu.ca>
>
>Some books I'm reading over the holidays:
>
>Tom Maddox, _Halo_.  I liked it, 

	Good for you, Marko.  I'm sure Fido will be glad.

>but won't say more since I'm sure it's been reviewed here many times.  

	If so, I've missed all but one.



-- 
				Tom Maddox
		    	    tmaddox@netcom.com
	"That's a bird bone, chair, Bob.  I don't know if I should sit there."
				Tom Waits
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: s1mbm@isuvax.iastate.edu
Subject: Re: Cultural Appropriation and the New Age
Reply-To: s1mbm@isuvax.iastate.edu
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, Iowa
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 08:07:13 GMT

In article <1992Dec30.022952.8337@athena.mit.edu>, kamorgan@athena.mit.edu (Keith Morgan) writes:
>Jennifer Heise writes:
>
>>Question: Are the author and singer(s) of the pop song "Kyrie Eleison"(Sp?)
>>committing cultural appropriation?  ("Kyrie Eleison"- greek for "Lord, have
>>mercy." Often used in that form in the Catholic Mass. Many people had no idea
>>of the significance of the phrase, notably my boyfriend, who insisted that the
>
>	This is somewhat off the subject (but, hey is this r.a.b. or
>what?) but Jennifer's comment that her friend thought "Kyrie Eleison"
>was "carry a laser" reminds me of today's meaninful internet
>experience. I was browsing the gopher server at U. of Minnesota where
>they have the "lyric" file - this file has the lyrics to hundreds of
>(mostly) pop songs - and I was somewhat astounded to actually read the
>lyrics and then remember what I thought it was on first hearing the
>song. I dimly remember this as a rab thread sometime ago but it's still
>weird to see your memories so flatly contradicted. Of course, I'm  not
>completely convinced that the file is 100% correct anyway. Anyone
>remember the Grateful Dead's *Friend of the Devil? Is it like this:
>
>Got two reasons why I cry away each lonely night
>The first one's named sweet Ann Marie and she's my heart's delight
>The second one is prison, babe, and the sheriff's on my tail
>And if he catches up with me I'll spend my life in jail
>
>Or?
>
>The first one's named sweet Ann Marie and she's my heart's delight
>The second one is prison bait and the sheriff's on my tail
>....
>
>We now return to your regularly scheduled soiree.
>
>Keith
>
>--
>
>Keith Morgan kamorgan@athena.mit.edu
>In the end nothing could be said of his work except that it was
>preposterous and true and totally unacceptable. Edward Whittemore


Keith, I always heard it as

The second one is prison, baby, and the sheriff's on my *trail* . . .

michael mcdonald
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: mnemonic@eff.org (Mike Godwin)
Subject: Rabelaisian (Was Re: Ngaio Marsh info requested)
Originator: mnemonic@eff.org
Organization: Electronic Frontier Foundation
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 03:22:45 GMT

In article <-zfr3-#@lynx.unm.edu> rsquires@cyclops.eece.unm.edu (Roger Squires) writes:
>> mnemonic@eff.org (Mike Godwin) writes:
>>
>>I'm trying to think of some non-Rabelaisian pieces about farting. Are
>>there any?
>
>	*Are* there any?  Ha!
>
>	[in the middle of necromantic summoning of the devils,
>	who are crowding in among them]
>	...I looked at Agnolino Gaddi, whose eyes were starting from
>	their sockets in his terror, and who was more than half
>	dead, and said to him: "Agnolo, in time and place like this
>	we must not yield to fright, but do the utmost to bestir
>	ourselves; therefore, up at once, and fling a handful of
>	that asafetida upon the fire."  Agnolo, at the moment when
>	he moved to do this, let fly such a volley from his breech,
>	that it was far more effectual than the asafetida.[1]
>	The boy, roused by that great stench and noise, lifted his
>	face a little, and hearing me laugh, he plucked up courage,
>	and said the devils were taking to flight tempestuously. ...
>		-- The Autobiography of Benvenuto Cellini, Chapter LXIV
>	[1] Fece una istrombazzata di coregge con tanta abundanzia
>	di merda.


How is this non-Rabelaisian?


--Mike




-- 
Mike Godwin,    |"I'm waiting for the one-man revolution
mnemonic@eff.org| The only one that's coming."
(617) 864-0665  |                           
EFF, Cambridge  |                   --Robert Frost 
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer)
Subject: Re: No Wise Man here (Re: *Any* kind of r.a.b split, or at least a *serious* discussion)
Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting, Cambridge MA
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1992 04:56:35 GMT

In article <1992Dec25.205623.6964@nevada.edu> wwhitman@nevada.edu (MICHAEL WISE) writes:
>	I fully intended to slander Ms. Stein, who might or might not take
>	offense if she were still alive (most likely, she had a tougher hide
>	than some of the rabble); fat and lazy were not meant to be literary
>	criticism, but disparaging remarks on an author I do not appreciate.

Of course you realize I was speaking on behalf of the fat (and presumed lazy)
lesbians you thereby slandered, not for Stein, who has already spoken for
herself and whose work is open for scrutiny.

>	I suppose that I will have the Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to
>	Fat and Lazy People (Gravitationally and Motivationally Challenged?) on
>	my back before long.

Where is Fiona when we need her?  I know that is it dangerous to try to
make serious talk about whimsy, even sort-of-dumb anti-"PC" semi-jokes
written out of reflex embarassment, but I will say that "fat" is a fact
for many people, and it is only by the grace of your genes that you
might have escaped.  Additionally, the conjuction of "fat and lazy" is
far more common than simply "fat": and this is where unexamined
conventional wisdom, objectively incorrect, serves to judge people
unfairly and propagate prejudicial attitudes.  Now, I'll exercise some
uncharacteristic restraint and try not to say anything more weighty
here on r.a.b.

I hope that one day calling someone a "fat lesbian" will be as feeble
an insult as calling someone a "tall person".  But we aren't there yet.

>I apologize both for my use of these terms, and for my feeble attempt
>to justify them objectively.

Thanks.

-- 
Steve Dyer
dyer@ursa-major.spdcc.com aka {ima,harvard,rayssd,linus,m2c}!spdcc!dyer
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: rmg3@grebyn.com (Robert Grumbine)
Subject: Re: 92 in rabreview
Organization: Grebyn Timesharing
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 14:12:12 GMT

  Me too.  :-)

  This year I moved.  Not normally an r.a.b topic aside from the matter
of moving my books.  But this time around I received help from the 
rab.id, a listing of bookstores and apartment and area information.
Thanks!

  After the move (at the end of last year), I managed to read 
100+-50 books, 250+ journal articles.  (A change of field upped
the journal reading and depressed the non-popcorn book reading.)
I'll also take (with less justification) the popular writing 
'excuse'.  A couple of journal articles, a couple of FAQs, and
being technical editor on a book.  I've also been encouraged by
some net people to write for magazines like Discover, and have
made the relevant inquiries.

  Happy reading,
Bob Grumbine
rmg3@grebyn.com

Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: orourke@sophia.smith.edu (Joseph O'Rourke)
Subject: Deck us all with Boston Charlie
Organization: Smith College, Northampton, MA, US
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 17:33:01 GMT

Does anyone know if Walt Kelly wrote more than one verse?

	Deck us all with Boston Charlie
	Walla Walla, Wash., an' Kalamazoo!
	Nora's freezing on the trolley,
	Swaller dollar cauliflower alley-garoo!
	Don't we know archaic barrel,
	Lullaby Lilla Boy Louisville Lou?
	Trolley Molly don't love Harold,
	Boola boola Pensacoola hullabaloo!
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: kasprj@jec310.its.rpi.edu (Jim Kasprzak)
Subject: Re: Mangled song lyrics (was: Cultural Appropriation and the New Age)
Reply-To: kasprj@rpi.edu
Organization: The Big Wedge 
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 14:14:35 GMT


I can't resist adding a few of my own...
 
 The spoken line from Pink Floyd's "One of These Days" has spawned more 
creative interpretations than I can remember. The official version is 
"One of these days I'm going to cut you into little pieces", but I know
a few people who insist it was "One of these days I'm going to dance 
with kings and queens." 
 
 Also from Pink Floyd, at the end of "Another Brick in the Wall", where
the schoolmaster is shouting something: I always thought he was saying 
"Go home! Shoot the kids!" I've been told that it's actually "Wrong!
Do it again!" but even after seeing the lyric sheets I don't quite buy
it. There are _two_ syllables in that first phrase.
 
 From Queen's "Bohemian Rhapsody": the line "Beelzebub has a devil put 
aside for me" was often rendered by my high school friends as "The 
algebra has a devil for a son..." (they didn't know what it was supposed
to mean either.)
 
 And finally, who can forget the classic lines from Creedence Clearwater
Revival:
  
  "Don't go round the knife,
   It's bound to take your light,
   There's a bathroom on the right."
 
------------------------------------------------------------------
     __  Live from Capitaland, heart of the Empire State...
 ___/  | Jim Kasprzak, computer operator @ RPI, Troy, NY, USA
/____ *| Sam Adams,Spaten# Life is too short #Hudson Lager,Beck's 
     \_| Pilsener Urquell#to drink cheap beer#Pete's Wicked Ale
      ====  e-mail: kasprj@rpi.edu or kasprzak@mts.rpi.edu 
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: mtaranto@panix.com (Mark Taranto)
Subject: Re: Judith Mth that collections of
Summary: Private faces in public places are wiser and nicer than . . . .
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 07:11:10 GMT
Organization: The Inner Clique



Keith Morgan kamorgan@athena.mit.edu writes:

> tmaddox@netcom.com (Tom Maddox) writes:

>>> [Cameron Laird's accidental posting deleted out of kindness]


>>	A remarkable posting, fit to stand beside Mark Taranto's sublime
>>"alias" text.

>	Not as poetic as Taranto's which had a certain haiku-like
> fascination but Cameron's does seem to have a definite esoteric
> dimension. 

I start my new job on Monday, January 4, and will need to create a new .alias
file.  If anyone has a copy of the one that I accidentally posted, I
would appreciate a copy of it.  Perhaps Don Zirilli has saved it with 
all of the O'Toole lore.

I did enjoy Cameron's accidental posting, as well as his intended posting
on Judith Martin.  However, my all-time favorite accidental posting was
what was intended as a the private e-mail letter from Kate Catmull to 
Joe Green, after Joe pleaded for kudos on parts 1-5 of WELL MET IN MN, 
and Kate granted his wishes.

Mark
From: hhenderson@vax.clarku.edu
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: RE: Celebrating McGonagall
Date: 3 Jan 93 03:25:22 GMT
Organization: Clark University


dsy@psych.toronto.edu (Desiree Sy) writes of the works of Wm. McGonagall,
Poet and Tragedian: 

>>This is some of the best bad poetry 
>>I've ever heard (to give you some idea of how memorable his stuff 
>>is, I last heard the beautiful bridge on the silvery Tey stuff 
>>when I was 15). 

Barbara Hlavin writes: 

>Can one of you fans explain to me what's so appealing about this stuff? 

The only way I know how to describe it is: he's the 1962 Mets of poetry.

>I can see that it's worth a chuckle in passing, but not investing in 
>volumes of it for your library, reading it again and again, and 
>celebrating it annually. 

Well, some fans only root for teams that win all the time.

To understand the entertainment value of a McGonagall Night, one must first
be familiar with the traditions of Burns Night -- an occasion that is usually
a great deal of fun, but is sometimes taken far too seriously.

I'll let you know when the next McGonagall Fest takes place.

Tip on McGonagall Appreciation:  his work is at its best when read aloud.

Heather
HHENDERSON@vax.clarku.edu
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: mnemonic@eff.org (Mike Godwin)
Subject: Re: Bullshit (was: *Any* kind of r.a.b. split, or at least a *serious*
Originator: mnemonic@eff.org
Organization: Electronic Frontier Foundation
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 05:20:00 GMT

In article <24DEC92.02382845@vax.clarku.edu> hhenderson@vax.clarku.edu writes:

>Oh, bullshit.  Bullshit!  BULLSHIT!!  There's no brand-new culture!  There
>are no new rules for politeness and propriety!  What people like you have to
>understand is: This group is not some kind of shadow play, this is Real Life.
>You are talking to Real People.

I strongly doubt that you and Barbara Hlavin have any significant
disagreement on this particular issue.

>So we can allow a public group to be controlled by
>whomever gets there first?

I've never known an unmoderated newsgroup to be controlled at all.

>Everyone who reads netnews who's
>interested in something connected to the vague title rec.arts.books should
>feel able to contribute.

I strongly doubt that anyone disagrees with you on this point. Surely this
principle extends to people who've been participants a long time as well
as to those who have just arrived. And long-time participants should feel
free to disagree with newcomers' postings, right? Unfortunately,
disagreements may result in some people's being intimidated.

It is impossible to stop anyone from posting to rec.arts.books.
I think the responsibility for self-censorship is lies with oneself.

>If you
>raise a ruckus at their wanting to contribute, fine, be a jerk.

This looks a bit like rhetorical excess. I don't think anyone is
complaining about new contributors. So far as I can tell, everyone in this
discussion says new contributors are a good thing.

>If you
>insist that there's this bizarre "divine right of r.a.b." that all newcomers
>have to acknowledge, you're full of shit.

Whom are you quoting here?


--Mike




-- 
Mike Godwin,    |"I'm waiting for the one-man revolution
mnemonic@eff.org| The only one that's coming."
(617) 864-0665  |                           
EFF, Cambridge  |                   --Robert Frost 
Xref: sparky rec.arts.books:22940 rec.food.historic:902
From: kassover@rumsey.crd.ge.com (David Kassover)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,rec.food.historic
Subject: Re: Food Slang (Once:Re: Goober, a Southernism??
Date: 21 Dec 92 17:29:42 GMT
Organization: nope

In article <92354.170329U42054@uicvm.uic.edu> U42054@uicvm.uic.edu (Barry Grau) writes:
>really, "baitzim", literally eggs, is yiddish slang for balls.
>

Then, of course, there's "knish".

Use your imagination.


Ob. Books:  Lots of stuff like this can be found in _The Joy of
Yiddish_.  I believe there exists a recent upgraded edition.


-- 
David Kassover             "Proper technique helps protect you against
uupsi!khazad!kassover	          sharp weapons and dull judges."
kassover@aule-tek.com                   F. Collins
kassover@ra.crd.ge.com
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: "sonia brock" <sonia.brock@canrem.com>
Subject: education and the env
Reply-To: "sonia brock" <sonia.brock@canrem.com>
Organization: Canada Remote Systems
Distribution: rec
Date: 1 Jan 93 14:06:41 EST

CC>received applause while haranguing the teacher.  Fortunately, there
CC>were enough self-described conservatives in the class who cherish
CC>free speech -- unlike liberals.

Interesting statement on the conservative wing.  I sense that
it is a valid one.  I wish someone would write a book on 20th century
tribalism, including the liberal tribe of political correctness.

Sonia Brock
---
  DeLuxe 1.25 #4202  >> Je suis Marxiste - tendance Groucho <<
--
Canada Remote Systems  - Toronto, Ontario
World's Largest PCBOARD System - 416-629-7000/629-7044
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer)
Subject: Re: Cambridge mimes & Third World Bookstores (was Re: Git)
Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting, Cambridge MA
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 07:29:02 GMT

In article <1992Dec24.004613.7037@Cadence.COM> vince@cadence.com (Vince Gibboni) writes:
>> Still, for bookstores generally the Square is great. A
>> guide to Cambridge Bookstores lists 19 in the vicinity and 32 in
>> Cambridge.
>    Yes, but if you are, say, looking for some _particular_ book, and not
>    just out to view large numbers of books in general, you are pretty much 
>    on the wrong track in Harvard Square. If you could (theoretically, of 
>    course) park somewhere, and manage to make your way to all nineteen 
>    bookstores without being shot, stabbed, or accosted by some tofu-crazed 
>    street performer, you would find that, in fact, all nineteen stores have
>    _exactly the same books_.

It is unfortunately the case that there has been a tendency in the
Square over the past decade or so for specialized bookstores to
disappear (Temple Bar became Benetton) and the broad mass-market
bookstores to become more homogeneous, but after a bit of reflection, I
have to say that Harvard Square and Cambridge in general is still a
great place for books.  First, if you're looking for a particular book,
you go to the store which specializes in the genre.  All 19 stores most
definitely do not have exactly the same books.  Mandrake is great for
art and architecture, Schoenhof's for foreign books, Grolier for poetry,
Harvard Book Store for remainders, WGBH Learningsmith (cutesy-icky,
but arguably a bookstore) for science and education, just to name a few.
Slightly further afield are Kate's Mystery Books in Porter Square,
Divinitas in Central Square for religion and philosophy, and Quantum
Books in Kendall Square for computer-related materials.  Even among the
more broadly based bookstores (Wordsworth, Barillari, the Coop, Reading
International--what am I forgetting?), there's a difference between
them which you come to appreciate if you spend time in each of them.

>    Anyway, one trip to Borders, and one trip
>    to the convenient Much-Ado used bookstore (right in Marblehead) will,
>    in my experience, generally be more much productive (and all-around 
>    _nicer_) than any amount of shopping in Harvard Square.

Borders isn't a bad bookstore, but sometimes you're better off
seeing a specialist.  Call me a snob, but I have trouble taking
suburban bookstores very seriously: it's a phenomenon similar to
quality restaurants--they become scarcer and scarcer as you move
from the city (here, Boston/Cambridge) to the suburbs, and valiant
attempts to assert standards end up serving Danielle Steele and
Surf 'n Turf as they struggle to survive after their audience doesn't
respond.

-- 
Steve Dyer
dyer@ursa-major.spdcc.com aka {ima,harvard,rayssd,linus,m2c}!spdcc!dyer
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: alison@wsrcc.com (Alison Chaiken)
Subject: K. Lorenz (Was Re: non-fiction reading)
Organization: W S Rupprecht Computer Consulting, Fremont CA
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 06:13:58 GMT

rsquires@cyclops.eece.unm.edu (Roger Squires) writes:
>	You might take a gander at _King Solomon's Ring_,
>	by Konrad Z. Lorenz.
>rms

I greatly enjoyed this book and another that Lorenz wrote on animal
behavior (_On Aggression_?) when I read them several years ago.  Then
I read that Lorenz was an avid Nazi, and that the essay he wrote about
dogs being divided into wolfs and hyenas was used as eugenics
propaganda in the WWII era.  My reaction was similar to the recent
_Little Tree_ discussion; I still remembered the books as informative
and entertaining, but my warm feelings towards Lorenz are gone for
good!  Too bad since he looked adorable with all those baby geese
following him.

-- 
Alison Chaiken 				alison@wsrcc.com
(510) 422-7129 [daytime] 		or chaiken@cmsgee.llnl.gov
Look if you like, but you will have to leap.

Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: mcirvin@husc8.harvard.edu (Matt McIrvin)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Mangled song lyrics (was: Cultural Appropriation and the New Age)
Date: 1 Jan 93 00:23:38 GMT
Article-I.D.: husc.mcirvin.725847818

hhenderson@vax.clarku.edu writes:


>Hey, that ain't nuthin'.  Try these on for size (yes, I actually know people
>who have admitted to these):

>   Bee Gees' "More Than A Woman" = "Bald Headed Woman"

[...more wonderful examples deleted...]

My personal favorite is one that apparently originated with one of
my mother's co-workers:  Paul Young's "Every Time You Go Away,
You Take A Piece Of Me With You"  became "Every Time You Go Away,
You Take A Piece Of Meat With You."

I think it's an improvement.
-- 
Matt McIrvin         I read Usenet just for the	tab damage!
==== =======         = ==== ====== ==== === === === =======
From: ah@dunaad.co.uk (Alan Hunter)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Police Procedural  (Was Re: Sjowall & Wahloo)
Date: 28 Dec 92 15:50:07 GMT
Organization: Johnson Hunter Limited

Joan Shields wrote:

>does anyone know of other books
>that do this(...) and do it particularly well 

The most enjoyable writer this genre, I think, is Reginald Hill. His
series of 10-12 books featuring 'Fat Andy" Dalziell and Peter Pascoe, set
in Yorkshire, dealing with the modern world while remaining true to the
genre, improving with every book, are to be treasured. I'd have said
that no one else read them, but suddenly last August the shelves of every
book stand in the UK were covered with them, so somebody is trying.

Alan

-- 
Alan Hunter
Johnson Hunter Ltd
Isle of Islay, Scotland
A.Hunter@dunaad.co.uk          fax: +44-496-2336         voice: +44-496-2286
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books