From: zaft@caritas.cotdazr.org (Gordon C. Zaft)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Question on Catholic Doctrine (was Re: Dislike of Christianity)
Date: 8 Apr 92 08:35:39 GMT
Organization: Argus Consulting, Oxnard, CA

In article <Apr.1.04.35.32.1992.12959@dartagnan.rutgers.edu> mcr@meaddata.com (Mary Ries) writes:
>Are you saying that Catholics believe that you can only be saved
>through Christ?  Wow.  I did not know that.  I went to a Catholic
>grade school and high school, and I learned that you could go to
>heaven as long as "you were basically a good person".  I learned that
>before Jesus came, only saints could go to heaven, and after Jesus
>died for our sins, anyone could go to heaven, as long as they were
>"basically a good person".  And now, even if you deny Jesus lived at
>all, as long as you are basically a good person, you can go to heaven.
>Both my mother and my friend seemed to confirm this with me.

	Certainly, Catholics believe that you can only be saved through
Christ.  It is by and through Christ that the world is redeemed and
salvation is possible.
	To the best of my knowledge, the Church would say that salvation
is possible for someone who has never heard of Christ, if that person
attempted to live a righteous life according to the dictates of the
natural law placed in his heart by God.  If you know of Christ but
reject him, you cannot be saved.  Furthermore, before Christ came,
no one went to heaven ('cept perhaps Enoch and Elijah); after Christ
opened the gates of heaven by his Death and Resurrection righteous
men (such as Moses) who lived before His coming entered into the
places prepared for them.

>I also learned that anytime I was not a good person, I could go to
>confession and become a good person again.  Well, since being bad was

	Wow.  I'm not trying to sound judgmental, but this sounds
pretty screwy to me.  In one sense, you are always a 'good person'
since you are a unique and beautiful creation of God.  When your soul
is stained as a result of sin, or deadened and your relationship with
God mortally wounded as a result of mortal sin, then if you are
able to repent of your sin and receive absolution, you are made whole
again, a new creation in Christ.

>so much fun, I figured I'd be bad until I was old and then I would
>confess and be good my last few years, as long as I didn't commit a
>"mortal" sin. Pretty soon I'd done so many bad things, I figured there
>was no way I was getting into heaven, so I just gave up.

	First of all, I would question your repentance if you just
put off going to confession because you enjoyed sin.  Second, no matter
how many bad things you'd done, 'though your sins be red as scarlet you
can become white as snow' (or however the quote goes).
	'What it takes to get to heaven' is to know and love the
Lord and keep his commandments.  If you keep his commandments you
will avoid sin and repent of any sins you do commit.  When you die
there will be no question at the Gate of Heaven as to where your
loyalties lay.

>One other question: I have a friend that went to a Catholic college
>who says he learned there really is no hell or heaven, its just
>whatever state your conscience is in when you die... that's how you
>spend eternity.  That's not what I remember... is that correct
>Catholic doctrine? I mean, then why do we need Jesus?

	Most certainly not correct doctrine.  Sounds very much
infected by new age-ism and/or liberalism.  There most certainly
is a Hell and a Heaven.
	In response to something OFM wrote, the 'no salvation outside
the Church' is right in one sense, and outright heresy (Feeneyism)
in another.  That is, there is no salvation outside the Church because
anyone who truly belongs to Christ is, in some sense, in the Church,
though they may well not realize it.  However, the person may well
not consider themselves a member of the Roman Catholic Church.
	Hope this helps.

-- 
* Gordon Zaft     Argus Consulting    727 W. 5th St.  Oxnard, CA  93030-6955
* zaft@caritas.cotdazr.org | zaft@caritas.UUCP | suned1!gcpacix!caritas!zaft
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