HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: smm1@troy.uucp (22142-michelson)
Newsgroups: misc.invest
Subject: Re: Cost-Benefit analysis of Renting VS. Buying
Date: 16 Oct 92 17:12:47 GMT
Organization: Bellcore, Livingston, NJ

In article <1bhn1cINNfj6@early-bird.think.com> mincy@think.com (Jeffrey Mincy) writes:
>
>>The point I'm trying to make is that a house is not an investment.
>>Don't let anyone kid you that it is - and I don't think you have
>>the view that it is, based on your (impressively analytical) approach
>>to this decision.  A house is a lifestyle choice.  You live the way
>>you want to, and you pay for the privilege.
>
>Of course a house is an investment.  After 30 years of renting you have
>nothing.  After 30 years of paying a mortgage you own a tangible asset,
>that has value and that can be converted to cash.  

This is oversimplifying things greatly. This is true if you pay the same
amount of mortgage as rent, which I'd say is not true in many cases. I would
be willing to spend significantly more on a mortgage payment than on a rent
payment. I'd also rent certain properties that I wouldn't want to own. In
the meantime, while I rent, I put the difference between my rent and what
I'd pay for a mortgage into an account that will be used as a downpayment
for a house someday.

_______________________________________________________________________________
Steve Michelson                |   Paying tolls is like throwing money out
Bell Communications Research   |   the window.
smm1@troy.cc.bellcore.com      |   
Newsgroups: misc.invest
From: szabo@techbook.com (Nick Szabo)
Subject: Re: another stock market crash? '29 wasn't a surprise.
Organization: TECHbooks --- Public Access UNIX --- (503) 220-0636
Distribution: na
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1992 13:27:57 GMT


From what I understand, the market crashed in 1929 when it became
apparent that the Smoot-Hawley tarriff was going to pass.  A worldwide
shrinkage in international trade was anticipated (correctly).


-- 
Nick Szabo					 szabo@techboook.com
Hold Your Nose: vote Republocrat  ////////  Breathe Free: vote Libertarian
Newsgroups: misc.invest
From: nicklaus@lonetree.lonetree.physics.wisc.edu (Dennis J. Nicklaus)
Subject: Re: Cost-Benefit Analysis of Renting vs. Owning
Organization: Univ. Wisconsin High Energy Physics
Distribution: misc
Date: 15 Oct 92 16:50:39

mitch@giesy.mitch.b17a.ingr.com (Mitch Giesy) wrote:
>	After 15 or 20 years, the
>	omeowner has paid off his mortgage, and only has to pay
>       property taxes and insurance - a small monthly amount. 

I'll go on record as saying that prop. taxes & insurance are NOT
a small monthly amount.  Here in tax-happy Wisconsin,
my prop taxes are about half the amount of my monthly mortgage 
(principle & interest) payment.  This is a major hit in the ol' budget!
My mortgage payment is fixed, but I expect the property tax
will change with time (and I'll bet the direction won't be down:-().

Your mileage will vary, of course.  Today or yesterday, the paper
here had a comparison on prop. taxes in Wi. & neighboring states.
Wi. was by far the highest -- up to about 4x the rate in 
Minn.  And Wi. income taxes sure aren't low either.
But hey, all the rural roads are paved around here, not just gravel.
Bitch Bitch Bitch.
Dennis

Newsgroups: misc.invest
From: schneid@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Mike Schneider)
Subject: Any articles about Discover and Dean Witter???
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 14:52:51 GMT

Has anyone seen any magazine or newspaper articles about the sale
of Dean Witter by Sears?  I really need to get some info about
this.  Please reply by email.  Thanks!
-- 
!!! Mike Schneider *** schneid@jerry.stat.uiuc.edu !!!
!!!     Assistant Manager of Systems Services      !!!
!!!            Department of Statistics            !!!
!!!   University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign   !!!
Newsgroups: misc.invest
From: bucknerb@bnr.ca (Brent Buckner)
Subject: Re: Barron's and the D word
Organization: Bell-Northern Research, Ontario, Canada
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1992 15:21:56 GMT

In article <9210151743.AA19462@inet-gw-1.pa.dec.com> GCTHORNE@idbsu.idbsu.edu (Broward Horne) writes:
>In a previous article, merritt@macro.bu.edu (Sean Merritt) says:
>
>>
>>I haven't seen mention of the very disturbing article about
>>the current economic situation in the US. The article
>>had completely different definitions of the R-word and
>>D-word than I've seen here or anywhere.
>>
>>Worth the $2.50 for a sobering look at what needs to be
>>done if we are to avoid the type of Great D- scenario.
>
>       What makes you believe that it is avoidable now?
>       It should be obvious, by now, that:
>
>          i)  Our stock market doesn't WANT to know about it
>          ii) Our Federal Reserve doesn't want to KNOW about it
>          iii) Our Federal government DOESN'T want to know about it
>          iv)  Our general population doesn't want to know ABOUT IT!
>

I think that a Great Depression scenario is avoidable; however,
points i) to iv) are strong arguments that sensible measures will
not be taken.  I am left believing that really bad things are
going to happen, and the longer the wait the worse things will 
ulitmately get.

So, in a strange way, I take some comfort in the idea that
the December bank failures, the Japanese financial unrest
(due to come to a head in March), and Russian commodity dumping
will be too big to absorb without radical adjustments
(i.e. a deflationary depression leading to reform of
practices in the public and private sectors).  Otherwise, I'd expect
hyperinflation further down the road.

Say, does anyone have a set of numbers convenient for total
U.S. indebtedness (combining the public and private sectors), or
the federal off-budget debts and assets?
-- 
at Bell-Northern Research
voice:        (613) 765-2739
Canada Post:  P.O. Box 3511, Station C, Ottawa, Canada, K1Y 4H7
I do not claim that BNR holds these views.
From: eas@ll.mit.edu (Eric Swanson)
Newsgroups: misc.invest
Subject: Trading stock on political candidates
Date: 9 Oct 92 15:15:10 GMT
Organization: mit lincoln lab


On NPR this morning trading stocks on political candidates over the internet
was discussed.  I believe it is centered at the university of iowa.  If you 
have information on how to access this service please email it to me at

eas@ll.mit.edu


Thanks.
From: dp@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (David Pinedo)
Newsgroups: misc.invest
Subject: Re: Ford IPO of new type of stock
Date: 13 Oct 92 15:49:37 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Fort Collins, CO, USA

In misc.invest, declrckd@rtsg.mot.com (Dan J. Declerck) writes:

> I heard that Ford Motor Company is issuing a new stock,
> aimed at the small investor. I heard it was similar to 
> a preferred type of offer.
> 
> Does anybody know anything else??
> 
> -Dan

I don't know about the details of this new stock, but it reminded
me of something I've thought about before.

What if, instead of just offering cash rebates when you purchase
a car, the car company gave the customer the option of purchasing
some number of shares of the car company?  It could give a discount
on the shares, so the cost per share would be, say, 90% of the
trading price of the stock.

Such a promotion would attract buyers ("I wanted to buy some GM stock
anyway"), and would create a shareholder that would be more likely to
buy his next vehicle from the same car manufacturer.  Back in the
mid-80's, I didn't feel strongly about who my long distance company
was, but I selected Sprint because I owned GTE stock.

The one disadvantage I see for the car company is it ends up with
lots of small shareholders, each of which need to be sent annual
reports, proxy materials, etc.  Also, what would the SEC think
about this?

David Pinedo
From: aron@garnet.berkeley.edu (Aron Roberts)
Newsgroups: misc.invest
Subject: Re: Mutual funds with no-fee IRAs
Date: 8 Oct 1992 16:33:58 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Distribution: usa
NNTP-Posting-Host: garnet.berkeley.edu
Keywords: IRA, mutual funds, fees

>In article <1992Oct7.141329.2196@news2.cis.umn.edu> janardan@myria.cs.umn.edu (Ravi Janardan) writes:
>Does anyone have a list of mutual funds (if any)
>that do not charge a set-up fee or an annual
>maintenance fee for IRAs under 10K? (Schwab has such
>a thing but only for amounts >= 10K.)

  The Benham Group offers no-fee IRA accounts in its mutual fund family.
The minimum investment in any Benham fund held in an IRA account
is just $100.00.

  At least two fund families, The Janus Group of Mutual Funds 
(as mentioned in previous postings) and The Rushmore Group, offer
a payment option in which one can pay a single, lifetime IRA maintenance 
fee of $100.  After payment of this fee, no annual maintenance/custodial 
fees will be charged on one's IRA account--ever.  (In both fund families,
an "account" for the purpose of this special lifetime maintenance
fee payment option appears to be defined something like the following:
"investments in any number of funds in the fund family, held
within a single IRA account associated with a single Social Security
number, as long as this account is continuously maintained with the
fund family".)

  To the best of my knowledge, all of the funds in these three families
do not charge any fees other than management fees and administrative 
expenses (i.e. no sales load or deferred sales load, no redemption fee, 
and no 12b-1 fee).  Expense ratios vary between families and funds.
 
-- 
Aron Roberts  Workstation Software Support Group . 221 Evans Hall
              University of California, Berkeley, CA 94720
              aron@garnet.berkeley.edu . ucbvax!garnet!aron
              aron@ucbgarne.bitnet . (510) 642-5974 . fax: (510) 643-5385
From: rauchfuss@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Brian Rauchfuss)
Newsgroups: misc.invest
Subject: Re: The cream of the garbage
Date: 13 Oct 92 22:26:05 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Fort Collins, CO, USA

In misc.invest, lwest@futserv.austin.ibm.com (Lynn West) writes:

> For novice investors who follow this board, I recommend you read Bob's
> reply twice.  It is an excellent comment on stocks to buy versus those
> that are popular and that (seem to) have strong fundamentals and
> history.  Pick 10 such stocks and "buy " them on paper.  Within a year,
> one or two will have gone bust, three will be about where they were, and
> five will be up.  Two will be up spectacularly.  Those two, perhaps up
> sixfold, will offset the losses and result in a significant net gain for
> the list as a whole.  Just try it.  Also try a list of 10 of the "best"
> stocks.  In a year, this  list will probably be down 2-20% depending on
> how the market is doing.  I have run this little experiment at least 20
> times by now, with only two exceptions to these kinds of results.

I am not clear on the difference between the first set of stocks and the second
set.  What are the first stocks that have such various results?  What are the
"best" stocks that usually stay flat or go down?

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Brian Rauchfuss (Smokefoot)  "... the world could change in the blink
brian@hpfcbdr.fc.hp.com           of an eye."
Newsgroups: misc.invest
From: mitch@giesy.mitch.b17a.ingr.com (Mitch Giesy)
Subject: Re: Cost-Benefit Analysis of Renting vs. Owning
Organization: Mapping & Energy, Intergraph Corp., Huntsville, AL
Distribution: misc
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1992 14:22:54 GMT

In article <samaddar.719184517@dumbo> samaddar@siemens.com (Sumitro Samaddar) writes:
   I haven't seen many of the earlier postings. Please excuse if I'm
   repeating points already made.

   mitch@giesy.mitch.b17a.ingr.com (Mitch Giesy) writes:

   >           A home is an appreciably asset. A [constantly increasing]
   >           portion of a monthly mortgage payment goes toward the
   >           owner's equity in the home. This is an investment. What is
   >           the amount of a rent check that accumulates for the renter? Zero.

   This is the standard argument of real estate agents. But, the mortgage payment
   has 2 components, principal and interest. Where is the accumulated amount
   paid towards this interset component? Down the drain. Just like the rent.
   So, rent is basically paying an interest on the house without paying any
   component towards principal. As you point out later, a renter could basically
   invest this "component towards principal" anywhere else and make capital
   gains just like on the house. eg; s/he could invest this component on stocks
   and make comparable capital gains. One could use returns from this investment
   to reduce rent payments till they gradually vanish.

   ...

   Sumitro

The point I'm trying to make is that the net monthly difference of
renting cost vs. owning costs comes out in favor of the homeowner, not
the renter, at some point early in the life of a mortgage. There is no
difference for the renter to invest elsewhere.

I agree with earlier posts that buying a house is
not necessarily a "good" investment. But this discussion compares two
alternative approaches (owning and renting) to establishing a dwelling
place for oneself - an essential, necessary, unavoidable, *lifelong*
"expense". A person has to choose one or the other. Can anyone show me
a person who has been a homeowner for, say, even half their working
years, who cannot rent their home for substantially more than their
mortgage payments? There probably are cases, but I have not seen any
amongst my friends and family. (Midwest and Southeast US)

Of course there are many other advantages to owning a home in addition
to its cost effectiveness and investment potential. But viewed
strictly as an alternative to managing living costs and making the
most of one's dollar, is it not the best choice? I don't agree that
owing a home is merely a lifestyle choice. In a sense, we all have the
same lifestyle - we are going to domicile somewhere for 60 some odd
years. Why not make an investment while you're at it? Why not pay the
least for it over time?

Mitch

--
Mitch Giesy	 | WK: (205) 730-1773		|  DISCLAIMER:
Intergraph Corp. | EMAIL:			|  When all is said and done,
1 Madison I.Pk   | mitch@giesy.b17a.ingr.com    |  its your fault if you done
Huntsville, AL	 | uunet!ingr!b17a!giesy!mitch 	|  what I said. :-)
Newsgroups: misc.invest
From: dwang@ADS.COM (David Wang)
Subject: Re: Income & Wealth (Was: Effects...Debt)
Organization: Advanced Decision Systems, Mtn. View, CA (415)960-7300
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 22:06:33 GMT

In article <1992Oct6.015831.6817@cs.sfu.ca> mcdonald@cs.sfu.ca (Ken Mcdonald) writes:
>
>The book itself is interesting reading.  Batra's thesis is that depressions
>occur when a normal recession is worsened by the fact that the well-to-do
>own so much that a large share of the population cannot afford to keep spending
>in the recession (i.e. larger than would be "normal"), which of course
>disrupts the economy severely.  According to his figures, wealth disparity
>in the 80's attained levels which had not been seen since 1929.  Yay!


An other obvious obstacle to consumer spending is the high level of
consumer debt as a percentage of income.  This factor is far more
important than wealth disparity.  Still another obvious obstacle is
a pervasive uncertainty of job security.  I would think these 2
factors alone far outweight the wealth disparity factor quoted.

Seems like the previous posters all have an axe to grind.  Perhaps
they might like to contribute more of their income to the federal
bureaucracy.

DW


Newsgroups: misc.invest
From: jaorans@pbhyg.PacBell.COM (Jeff Oransky)
Subject: Re: Janus Worldwide Fund 
Reply-To: jaorans@PacBell.COM (Jeff Oransky)
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1992 20:38:02 GMT
Keywords: Janus, global, fund       

In article <1992Oct12.164851.11649@ncar.ucar.edu> stimmel@virga.ucar.edu (carol lee stimmel) writes:
>
>I am seeking information and opinions regarding investing in a global
>fund -- specifically the Janus Worldwide Fund.  What are the expert
>opinions re: global investments at this point in time.  (especially,
>considering the newly formed E.C)
>
I looked at the Janus Global fund (I own some Janus Fund shares) and I thought
that their management fee was a little high compared to other no load funds.

Jeff

Newsgroups: misc.invest
From: ed@odi.com (Ed Schwalenberg)
Subject: Re: Getting a merchant visa account
Organization: Object Design, Inc.
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 92 15:04:20 GMT

In article <1992Oct10.192629.15318@news.acns.nwu.edu> skrenta@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Rich Skrenta) writes:
  Briefly:  how I can get a merchant Visa account?  My local bank has
  said "No".  They claim that only businesses with "store fronts" can
  get them.  Can anyone suggest banks which would be willing to deal
  with a small business run out of the home?

Only crazy ones.  One of the all-time easiest paths to fraud is to set up
a mail-order (or 800-number) business, take zillions of orders for Ginsu
Knives at only $4.95 plus $99.95 for shipping and handling which will never
be filled, and three weeks later (i.e., before the first customer has seen
his credit-card bill) move on to a different address.  Half of the zillions
of customers will just lose, while the other half will ask that the charge
be reversed, leaving the bank holding the bag.  (Question: which bank gets
left holding the bag: the merchant's bank, the bank that issued the consumer's
card, or <the set of all banks in Visa Inc>?)
Newsgroups: misc.invest
From: lott@uklira.informatik.uni-kl.de (Christopher Lott AG Rombach)
Subject: Re: Cost-Benefit analysis of Renting VS. Buying
Organization: Universitaet Kaiserslautern FB Informatik
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 11:09:54 GMT

In article <1bhn1cINNfj6@early-bird.think.com> mincy@think.com (Jeffrey Mincy) writes:
    >Of course a house is an investment.  After 30 years of renting you have
    >nothing.  After 30 years of paying a mortgage you own a tangible asset,
    >that has value and that can be converted to cash.

Of course you're right that you own a tangible asset after all those years.
My quarrel is with the use of the word "investment" when applied to something
that may have a value of greater, less, or even much less than you paid for
it over those years.  Sounds like "speculation" to me.

The argument here (that I borrowed from others) is that renting and
investing the down-payment + monthly difference between rent and mortgage
payment will leave you with a large amount of money that has increased
in value over the years due to interest etc.  Your tangible asset is
in the bank rather than sitting on a lot somewhere.

    >The proper way to do the analysis is to estimate the expenses for each
    >year, for however many years (as you've done), and then figure out the
    >present value of that cash stream.  You should do the expenses in after

Figuring out the present value of the cash stream - this sounds good,
would you mind explaining the concept more?  Perhaps so that someone (me)
who has never had a finance course could understand?  Thanks!

    >For example, if you have rent payments that start at $500/month and
    >increases 4% per year, for 30 years, then that cash stream has a present
    >value of 102.5K at 8%.  That number represents the true cost of renting
    >over that time period.

Pardon me for being really dumb - could you please explain this?

chris...
From: nsteffen@tecnet1.jcte.jcs.mil
Newsgroups: misc.invest
Subject: Re:Microcomputer Resource Guide
Date: 9 Oct 1992 08:20:13 -0500
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

Peter Chan writes:

> I am interested in getting historical futures data. I have heard that
> the American Association of Individual Investors publishes a
> Microcomputer Resouce Guide that would provide sources for that kind
> of data. Can someone give me the address of AAII or suggest some
> other sources. Thanks.


AAII ( of which I am a member) offer a book titled

"Individual Investor's Guide to Computerized Investing"

It comes "FREE" when you subscribe to their Computerized Investing News
Letter.  It can be purchased at a higher price by non members. I don't
remember the prices though.

I also noticed that the book was listed in a catalog I received called
the "Traders' Library".  Price there $29.95  "They" say 530pp, 450
software products, almost 100 online data bases.

The guide is THE MOST comprehensive listing that I have seen and I'm
glad I got it.

Traders Library can be reached at 1-800-272-2855

AAII's BBS header is:

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*            Welcome to               *
*       Computerized Investing's      *
*        Bulletin Board System        *
*                                     *
*     This system is a service of     *
*                                     *
*      "Computerized Investing"       *
*            Published by             *
*       American Association of       *
*        Individual Investors         *
*       625 N. Michigan Avenue        *
*         Chicago, IL 60611           *
*        Voice: (312)280-0170         *
*                                     *
*     If you want to subscribe to     *
*     "Computerized Investing" or     *
*   would like more information, use  *
*    the (C)omment command to leave   *
*        your name and address.       *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *


Hope this helps.

Norm Steffen  aka:nsteffen@tecnet1.jcte.jcs.mil
From: davida@bonnie.ics.uci.edu (David A. Andersen)
Subject: Re: Getting a merchant visa account
Newsgroups: misc.invest
Reply-To: davida@ics.uci.edu (David A. Andersen)
Organization: Univ. of Calif., Irvine, Info. & Computer Sci. Dept.
Date: 11 Oct 92 06:14:45 GMT

In article <1sLgsB1w161w@cdthq.UUCP> gary@cdthq.UUCP (Gary Heston) writes:
>skrenta@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Rich Skrenta) writes:
>

>Not so far as I know, but I don't run a small business taking credit
>cards. As long as you send through a credit slip, it should be
>honored.
>

Do you really want to lose the 2-3% to Visa every time you bill?


...just a thought....
David Andersen
UC Irvine