HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: niepornt@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (David Marc Nieporent)
Subject: Re: Sierra with A's: 5 yrs/$30MM
Originator: news@nimaster
Organization: Princeton University
Distribution: na
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 03:47:07 GMT

In<1992Dec22.200203.18964@midway.uchicago.edu> thf2@midway.uchicago.edu writes:

>Subject line says it all.  Which makes the Canseco trade look even
>stranger then -- I thought it was a stroke of brilliance to put all the
>eggs in one basket and then have sixteen free agents worth of draft picks
>to build for the next dynasty, while they unloaded Canseco's salary for
>the next few dry years when the A's wouldn't be competitive.  Instead,
>they sign Sierra, who's a healthier specimen than Jose, but not quite the
>same caliber of hitter, for more money than it would've cost to keep Canseco.
>Very strange.

Hey, are you criticizing a general manager?  He's a professional!  He
knows what he's doing!  You're just an arrogant stat-head who has no
talent and never watches baseball games!  :)

Or, alternately:
I assume it's a PR move.  The A's are going to stink next year either
way.  But if they *pretend* they're going to contend, they'll get more
fans, at least early in the year, than if they look like cheapskates who
don't want to compete with the other teams in the division.

As you said, the trade makes absolutely no sense.  They traded Canseco
for Sierra and Witt, for a lot more money than Canseco alone was going
to cost them.

>Man "E" Lee and Doug "If I just stand here for two innings I can run up my
>errorless games streak even longer" Dascenzo have signed with the Texas 
>Rangers, speaking of Canseco.

Yum.  And teams wonder why their salaries are too high?  Who would sign
Manny Lee?  There are only 800 AAA shortstops who can do a similar job
for minimum wage.  

>Daryl Boston signed with the Colorado Rockies, making him the favorite to
>become team MVP.

:)  No, Andres Galarraga will probably bat 4th, never take a pitch in
his life, get bunches of RBIs, and be called the teams "run producer,"
while Daryl Boston bats 5th or something, behind The Big Cat, thereby
insuring that he will lead off innings every at bat of the season.

>I still can't believe the Red Sox protected Burks over Wedge just so they
>could release him.  Feh.

Hey, there were other teams that were dumber.  At least Burks is a
decent player.  The Royals protected David Howard, who makes Manny Lee
look like Honus Wagner, over Jeff Conine, then signed *Greg Gagne.*  

I mean, if you're going to sign Ozzie, that's silly enough.  But to sign
31-year-old never-done-anything-special Greg Gagne with a spoon?  

Of course, the Red Sox also re-signed Billy Hatcher.  And signed 85-year
old no-knee no-walk Andre Dawson to make 1000s of outs for the team.

(Are you reading this, Valentine?  I feel like gloating a little.)
-- 
David M. Nieporent   | Is it too early to start making predictions for 1993?
niepornt@phoenix.    | Probably, but that never stopped me before.
   princeton.edu     | ALE: Baltimore ALW: Chicago NLE: Montreal NLW: Atlanta
Baltimore Orioles 93 | AL MVP: Cal Ripken  AL Cy Young: Mike Mussina
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer)
Subject: Re: Who are the best pitchers of our generation?
Organization: Cornell Univ. CS Dept, Ithaca NY 14853
Distribution: all
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 16:16:10 GMT

In article <1h0k34INN326@gap.caltech.edu> jeff@smoggy.gg.caltech.edu (Jeff Goldsmith) writes:
>Jack's been around for a long time, winning a lot of games for a pretty
>bad Tiger team.

Huh?  You have your facts reversed.  Morris' teams have been uniformly
excellent.  At least their offense has always been strong.  And does
it really matter to Morris whether the rotation is filled out with
Clemens/Koufax/Walter Johnson/Cy Young or Terrell/Acker/Dave
Johnson/Matt Young?  Maybe a little, but it's hard to say whether it
would be a positive or negative influence...

Whether or not the team sucks is irrelevant.  They sucked last year,
but scored almost 800 runs.  Tanana won 13 games with a 4.39 ERA...

>One thing that Stewart does that is flat out impressive is that he
>beats Clemens head-to-head.  One year I remember that he was 3-0 vs.
>Clemens when Clemens only lost about seven games.  Baseball isn't 
>transitive, though.

More bullshit.  Stewart doesn't beat Clemens.  Stewart beats the Red
Sox hitters.  Dominates them.  Shuts them down.  As far as I can tell,
Clemens doesn't really have much to do with it.

-Valentine
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: snichols@adobe.com (Sherri Nichols)
Subject: Re: Best playes of All Time
Organization: Adobe Systems Incorporated
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 18:42:11 GMT

In article <BzLG6v.Gxy@unix.amherst.edu> ddsokol@unix.amherst.edu (D. DANIEL SOKOL) writes:
>2B Carew- he won how many batting titles?  Much better than Morgan.

Carew is probably very underrated, but he doesn't belong at second base
ahead of Morgan.  Carew began as a second baseman in 1967, but by 1976,
Carew was a first baseman; he only spent half his career as a second
baseman.  Joe Morgan, by contrast, in his 22nd season in the majors at age
40, played 100 games at second base for the Oakland A's.  He was always
primarily a second baseman.  You can't give credit to Carew the second
baseman all the things that Carew the first baseman did offensively.  

The only other serious contender for the 2b job other than Morgan is
Rogers Hornsby.

Sherri Nichols
snichols@adobe.com
From: sfh@po.CWRU.Edu (Steven F. Hubbard)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Lucky Dodgers
Date: 31 Dec 1992 19:20:25 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: sfh@po.CWRU.Edu (Steven F. Hubbard)
NNTP-Posting-Host: thor.ins.cwru.edu



   The Baseball Weekly reports: "The Dodgers failed to sign free agent
Wade Boggs but solved their problem by getting Tim Wallach from the
Expos."

  Whew!  I bet they're glad to get out of that jam!

SfH
-- 
Steven F. Hubbard                ** "If people don't want to come to the 
Case Western Reserve University  **     ballpark, how are you gonna stop them? 
Department of Physics            **  
Cleveland, OH 44106              **                         -- Yogi
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: alird@Msu.oscs.montana.edu
Subject: baseball weekly
Reply-To: alird@Msu.oscs.montana.edu
Organization: Montana State University
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 21:18:02 GMT

This summer Baseball Weekly has a tournament using the computerized STrato game
pitting ateam of 9 Ralph Kiners and other immortals. I stopping buying the
paper before a winner was announced. Does anybody out there remember this
tourny and who won. Thanks in advance

Rick dyson 
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: gajarsky@pilot.njin.net (Bob Gajarsky - Hobokenite)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: My picks, AL/NL East
Date: 22 Dec 92 20:00:46 GMT
Organization: Somewhere in Hoboken

sfh@po.CWRU.Edu (Steven F. Hubbard) writes:
>In a previous article, cej0@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (CHARLES EDWARD JAMES) says:

>>
>>2.  (I know I'll get it for this one.)  I think that Alomar could be compared
>>to one of my all time favorite players, Johnny Bench.  Bench is undoubtly one
>>of the best catchers ever, but before the end of his career I think that
>>Alomar will be able to be mentioned in the same sentence with Bench.
>>

i think the only way you'll be able to compare sandy alomar jr. to johnny 
bench is if you compare alomar, 1993, to johnny bench, 1982. that's about
 the only way i see their careers being similar offensively.  he hasn't
 done any weight lifting in the off-season, and doesn't have some large
 number of doubles, which would translate to (when he develops his
 muscles further) more home runs.  he also doesn't have much of a batting
 average, and doesn't have much of an on base average.

- bob gaj
From: iacurtop@ERE.UMontreal.CA (Iacurto Paul)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Sammy Sosa                         X
Date: 22 Dec 92 15:43:39 GMT
Organization: Universite de Montreal


Need Sammmy Sosa's numbers for the 92 season

BA
HR
RBI
SB
E

iacurtop@ere.umontreal.ca
From: randall@informix.com (Randall Rhea)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Dodger News
Date: 24 Dec 92 00:59:38 GMT
Organization: Informix Software, Inc.

raczka@HQ.Ileaf.COM (christopher raczka) writes:

>   Keep the LA news coming ... whats the ROSTER look like, 
>   How do the Dodgers look by position ? Where are they thin ?
>   Will the Dodgers be a .500 (or better) club in '93 ?

Unlikely.  It is unlikely that Strawberry will have a year like
ones earlier in his career.  Even if he does, that's only 30 home
runs and maybe 100 RBIs.   That's not enough to make up for offensive
weaknesses up and down the lineup.  Davis will spend his usual
time on the DL.   To make the Dodgers a contender, someone will
need to step up and provide leadership with a devistating bat
a la Guererro in 1983.  I don't see who this would be.

The pitching actually has potential, but once again, they need
someone who can really win consistently and provide leadership
like Orel in 1988.  Maybe a rookie or two can come through (maybe
Astacio).   It will probably not be enough to make up for an
atrocious defense.


-- 

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Randall Rhea                                        Informix Software, Inc. 
Project Manager, MIS Sales/Marketing Systems    uunet!pyramid!infmx!randall
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: jimdean@bnr.ca (Jim Dean)
Subject: Re: blue jays-eichhorn??
Originator: jimdean@bcrks81
Reply-To: jimdean@bnr.ca
Organization: Bell-Northern Research
Distribution: rec
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 13:58:12 GMT


In article <1992Dec23.4235.52870@dosgate>, "mike walker" <mike.walker@canrem.com> writes:

> My real question is Mark Eichorn's status. The papers here are quiet,
> I don't know what's going on. I thought the club had an option, but if
> so they didn't exercise it. In one report he was listed as being
> offered arbitration at one point, but no mention, however, as to
> whether he accepted it. What is his status?

There were two Jays offered salary arbitration who subsequently turned
it down.

I believe Ike was one of those two.

This means they can talk free agent until Jan 7, or wait 'til May 1.

Many people believe that Jimy-one-m pitched him too much and he was
never the same pitcher in Atlanta or California.

Personally, I believe that a "tweener" (between 3/4 and side-arm) like
Ike is likely only effective (a) in short bursts, and (b) one time
through the league. This is a personal opinion, back up only by the
misfortune of having seen Ike only when he was ineffective.

> Now, however, with Henke history the Jays need a set-up guy. They are
> talking Timlin, which simply doesn't fit, from what I've seen of him.
> They seem to be totally ignoring Ike and are now reported to be going
> after Oakland's Jeff Parrett, the papers claim. According to the Elias
> ratings in BB Weakly, Eichorn is a class A free agent, #12 in the
> league, while Parrett is class B, #44 (for what that's worth). What
> gives??? Is Eichorn's salary to high? Is he somehow damaged? Anybody
> got a better read on this one? . . . . Mike

Well, Ike's salary was far too high, IMHO. (But then again, if you
look at what's happened to Spike Owen and Man "E" Lee...) Damaged? No
proof, but some people believe so.

-- 
Jim Dean (Internet: jimdean@bnr.ca) +-----+    National Capital Baseball League
mild-mannered computer scientist -->|Phone|--> President. Pitcher. My knuckler?
Bell-Northern Research, Ottawa,Ont. |Booth|    Not too legit to hit!  6-0, 1.99
Phone: (613) 763-2135 Fax: 763-7241 +-----+    Phone: (613) 723-1580
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: ted@ultra.com (Ted Schroeder)
Subject: Re: Wearing Out Pitchers
Organization: Ultra Network Technologies
Distribution: na
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 92 02:09:29 GMT

In <1992Dec18.194159.12678@newsgate.sps.mot.com> jeffh@pisces.sps.mot.com  (Jeff Heilner) writes:

>In article <18DEC199212135480@jhuvms.hcf.jhu.edu>  
>doctor8@jhuvms.hcf.jhu.edu (Jason Abner Miller) writes:
>> 	Case in point:  Mike Morgan
>> 	Here was this brilliant young prospect, fresh out of high
>> school, and into the Oakland A's organization.  In 1979, with the A's
>> languishing (before Martin took over, I believe), the A's rushed him,
>> and he went 0-3 with some ugly line numbers.  He started just about
>> regularly in 1980, went 2-10 with even worse numbers, and was considered
>> washed up.


>Huh?

>He wasn't 2-10 with the A's.

>Mike Morgan spent 1980 in the minors.

You're both right, almost.  Morgan was 0-3 in 1978 and 2-10 in 1979.
He played in the minors until 1982 when he went 7-11 with the Yanks,
the 0-3 with Toronto, another minor league year in 1984.  1985 saw him
go to the Mariners where he was 1-1 and finally got in a full season again
in 1986 going 11-17 then 12-17 in 1987.

Ted Schroeder
From: jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com (Jim Mann)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: McWeekly's dubious ratings
Date: 21 Dec 1992 13:48:56 GMT
Organization: Stratus Computer Inc, Marlboro MA
Reply-To: jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: gondolin.pubs.stratus.com

In article <1992Dec18.221542.4432@Princeton.EDU>  
niepornt@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (David Marc Nieporent) writes:
> 
> You know, I like Paul White and Peter Gammons (not his rumors, of
> course), but they, along with the other mediots who rated the  
offseason 
> moves by the teams, seem to have gone off the deep end.
> 
> --
> Boston *improved* by getting Dawson and Calderon?  Gag.  Are they  
crazy?
> I mean, I guess they're improvements over Herm Winningham, but  
really.
> 
> I say they're *worse* than before, except that Winningham won't be  
playing.  
> 

The problem may be in how they define the word "improve."  Are
the Red Sox better than last year given Dawson and Calderon?
Yes, but....  They may have improved from a last place team to
a 3rd or 4th place team. However, this was a short term move.
They did not lay the ground work needed to become a first place
team.  Essentially, they sacrificed the medium and long term
future for a better position in the standings next year.  So
they did "improve" if you limit it to the very short term,
but cut their own throats long term.


--
Jim Mann            
Stratus Computer   jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com
From: ez027993@chip.ucdavis.edu (Gary L. Huckabay)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Mike Moore to Detroit
Date: 21 Dec 92 18:37:59 GMT
Organization: Kent Hrbek DQ Club!  (Love Handle Division)

Chris Raczka writes:

>   I'am very suprised that Moore signed with Detroit
>   they are far from 'contenders'
>
>   After Moore and Gullickson the pitching is thin
    ^^^^^

AFTER Moore and Gullickson?

>   Now if they can resign Cecil ...

Hopefully for a long time, yes?  I'm sure hoping so.

I wonder if Bruce Bochte's still available.

Perhaps Detroit can draw Randy Lerch out of retirement.

Whee!



-- 
*    Gary Huckabay     * "Hi, Joel, it's Kathy."  "Hi, Kath."  "I think you 
*  "Official keeper    *  better come over.  Gary's not well.  He's chewing 
*  of the r.s.b. ammo  *  on the carpet, his eyes are red, and he's sobbing 
*   and weapons hoard."*  uncontrollably." "The A's signed Storm.  He'll live."
From: spira@panix.com (Greg "Sarcasm Is A Way Of Life" Spira)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Best playes of All Time
Date: 21 Dec 92 16:11:56 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Boo!

In <BzLG6v.Gxy@unix.amherst.edu> ddsokol@unix.amherst.edu (D. DANIEL SOKOL) writes:

>RP Gossage- I always liked the Goose.  His fastball was unhittable in his peak
>	years, clocked at 100 mph.

>SP Ryan, Feller- nobody was ever as dominating in their pitching as the two
>of them (and Koufax but he's beyond argument)  These guys had amazing
>speed.  If not for WWII Feller would have had some more amazing years.
>Clearly the dominant pitchers of their eras though.

You seem to be over-impressed with speed.  I guess you can call guys like
Nolan Ryan dominating.  But just because you throw very, very hard, and
dominate hitters, doesn't mean you're the best pitcher.  What matters is
how well you pitch and what you contribute to your team's attempts to win
games.  And Ryan clearly wasn't one of the best of his era at doing that;
Tom Seaver, Steve Carlton, Bob Gibson, Jim Palmer, Gaylord Perry, Ferguson
Jenkins, and others were all better.  Ryan's big weakness, of course, was
that he has walked more batters than any other pitcher ever - in fact, 50%
more.  Obviously, a lot of those walks are due to his incredible resiliency,
but I doubt there is anyone in the Hall who walked more per 9 innings
than Ryan did.

Greg 
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: niepornt@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (David Marc Nieporent)
Subject: Re: Sierra with A's: 5 yrs/$30MM
Originator: news@nimaster
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1993 09:16:08 GMT

In<4200367@hpcc01.corp.hp.com> boell@hpcc01.corp.hp.com (Donald P Boell) writes:

>>Instead,
>>they sign Sierra, who's a healthier specimen than Jose, but not quite the
>>same caliber of hitter, for more money than it would've cost to keep Canseco.
>>Very strange.

>Come now, do you really believe that Canseco could have been kept for less.
>What with the contracts Bonds and Puckett got (and the one McGwire is likely
>to get) it would have been in character for Canseco to whine to Sandy about
>renegotiating the remainder of the current contract.  If Sandy goes along
>with it then Jose gets more $ than Sierra.  If Sandy refuses then the A's
>get a moody player who complains (ala Rickey) and does not give 100%.

So?  80% of a great player is better than 100% of a mediocre one.  

Not that Sierra is mediocre, but I've always been fascinated by this odd
concept of "effort," as if that mattered more than "results."  Who cares
if a player tries as hard as he possibly can, if he isn't any good, as
compared to a player who *could* be Babe Ruth, but is really only Mickey
Mantle or something?

Obviously, Canseco isn't Ruth or Mantle, but the point still stands.
Who cares what percent he's giving?  What matters is what he's giving.

But not only is this an obnoxious attack upon Jose Canseco, it is also
uninformed.  Like many immature people, Canseco likes to drive too fast.
So?  What does this have to do with whining about contracts?  What
evidence do you have that he would whine?

And if he didn't, he was *much* cheaper than Sierra.

But let's say he *does* whine and want more.  So?  He's *still* not
going to be *more* than Sierra.

>I love the pop in Jose's bat, but I really think Sierra is a better fit for
>the A's.  He has decent power and average numbers and plays much better D than
>Jose.

Well, I always thought Jose was underrated defensively, but since his
back injury, there's no question that he isn't that good anymore.  

But does that defensive gap (which I'm not sure is that large; Sierra
isn't that great, no matter what a few mediots say) make up for the
offensive gap between the two?

In a worse ballpark, Canseco has had more power and gotten on base more
than Sierra:

Yr  Canseco     Sierra		Advantage
86: 318/457	302/476		Even
87: 310/470	302/470		Even
88: 391/569	301/424		Big Canseco
89: 333/542	347/543		Even
90: 371/543	330/426		Big Canseco
91: 359/556	357/502		Canseco
92: 344/456	323/443		Canseco
Career:
    347/511	325/470

Okay, so the difference isn't *huge,* necessarily.  So?  Paying *more*
for a lesser guy?  That makes no sense.

Oh, but they also got Bobby Wittout a clue.

-- 
David M. Nieporent   | Is it too early to start making predictions for 1993?
niepornt@phoenix.    | Probably, but that never stopped me before.
   princeton.edu     | ALE: Baltimore ALW: Chicago NLE: Montreal NLW: Atlanta
Baltimore Orioles 93 | AL MVP: Cal Ripken  AL Cy Young: Mike Mussina
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: kbanaian@bernard.pitzer.claremont.edu (King Banaian)
Subject: Re: Which baseball publication is the best one to subscribe to?
Organization: Pitzer College
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 19:53:14 GMT

In article <1992Dec31.165713.22158@leland.Stanford.EDU> 
sanjeev punjabi writes:
>Among the baseball publications: Baseball America, Baseball Digest and 
>Baseball Weekly, which is the best one to subscribe to?  How often are 
these>publications issued in a given year?  What are the attractive features 
of>each publication?  Thanks for the information.

Digest is a monthly, and is pretty much useless to me.  It has some 
interesting feature stories, but is the least current of the three.  I used 
to prefer BA to McWeekly, but I swear to God BA has managed to get even 
slower than it used to be:  The issue now on the newsstands is just covering 
the expansion draft, complete with Carl Barger quotes.  I tolerated this 
since BA gave such better coverage of college and minor league ball than 
BW.  (I originally read BA as a supplement to the Sporting News, but I 
gave up TSN three years ago when they decided that football was a more 
important sport.)  But McWeekly has closed the gap drastically with minor 
league coverage, and the remaining loss of coverage of non-majors is not 
enough to compensate for the timeliness of coverage.  The stats in BW are 
superlative:  I have to say the best feature they have is showing lineups 
every game during the season in a team box:  you can easily see platoon 
assignments, rested players, and staff rotations in a glance.  As for BA, I 
get better minor league stats, but with about a one-month lag.
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: mjones@fenway.aix.kingston.ibm.com (Mike Jones)
Subject: Re: Offense, Defense, and the Transmutation of Egalitarian Society
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 92 21:22:17 GMT
Organization: IBM T. J. Watson Research
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL3

maynard@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca (Roger Maynard) writes:
: In <1992Dec22.181623.54893@watson.ibm.com> mjones@fenway.aix.kingston.ibm.com (Mike Jones) writes:
: >Of course, Greg is discussing a point raised by Dr. Dave, Stathead Supreme,
: >Keeper of the Sacred Formulae, whose very median I am not worthy to
: >calculate, etc., etc. ;-)
: Do you honestly think that Dave enjoys this ass-kissing?

Yo, Rog! Sign up for Humor 101 in the spring semester, eh? They may even
explain the meaning of ";-)" to you if you're nice. Very clever of you to
delete everything in the post related to baseball.

: >So what's the "typical stathead error", Roger? Who's making it? Do you
: >realize you're actually supporting Dave's arguments, you miserable cretin?
: If I think he is right I will say so.  And if he is wrong I will say so
: as well...how do you do things?

Well, I generally don't characterize any argument I don't agree with as the
opinion of some group of people I disagree with. I just found it infinitely
asusing that you were agreeing with someone whom all the regulars on this
group would recognize as a stathead, while dismissing the argument
disagreeing with him as "typical stathead error". You're really a card,
Roger. I'm amazed you can post with a straight face.
  
   Mike Jones  |  AIX/ESA Development  |  mjones@donald.aix.kingston.ibm.com

99 Reasons Baseball is Better Than Football - Number 1:
Baseball has Blue Moon, Catfish, Spaceman, and the Sugar Bear.  Football has
Lester the Molester, Too Mean, and the Assassin.
	- Tom Boswell, "The Heart of the Order"
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: luigi@bullpen.csd.sgi.com (Randy Palermo)
Subject: Expo Fans
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc., Mountain View, CA
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 22:21:08 GMT

Expo fans: With the departure of Tim Wallach where does Greg Colbrunn fit
in the plans for '93? 

Thanks,
luigi
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball