HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: yf5990@u.cc.utah.edu (Yan Fang/Humanities)
Subject: Re: Need to convince boss 486's are *not* w
Organization: University of Utah Computer Center Student Mail Machine
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 93 21:46:57 GMT

In article <1993Jan23.172343.11294@athena.mit.edu> zmonster@athena.mit.edu (Eric M Hermanson) writes:
>In article <1jpothINN8ak@shelley.u.washington.edu> jaesyn@carson.u.washington.edu (Jason Smith) writes:
>>zmonster@athena.mit.edu (Eric M Hermanson) writes:
>
>Well, I hope you would at least go somewhere to have a NeXT user give you
>a demo of how NeXTSTEP can help you.  You are about to spend a lot of money
>and it is worth your time.  Also, you were worried about support.  I can
>almost guarantee than from whoever you buy your NeXTSTEP systems from, they
>will come in and set everything up free of charge.  You will get the one
>on one support from NeXT or from the NeXT reseller.
>
>Eric
>

AAARRRRGH! I'm the NeXT reseller, and I_don't_ come into sites and
set everything up free of charge. I _will_ charge a _reasonable_ price for
training, and I give 60 days free _support_, but _installation_ and
_configuration_ are sales engineering tasks that cost dollars and time.

But someone could set up a NeXT network far more easily than the
equivalent network of Suns. Usually the client has to have far more
training to set up Suns than NeXTs. The client probably wouldn't even need
to buy installations and configurations for a NeXT network, just a
two-hour, $150 class at my VAR called "Setting Up a Homogenous NeXT Network."

-- 
Yan Fang-Magnusson
Ph.D. candidate, philosophy, University of Utah
yf5990@u.cc.utah.edu
yanfang@cc.utah.edu (NeXTmail)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: jess@gn.ecn.purdue.edu (Jess M Holle)
Subject: Re: OS/2, not the dream OS?
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 93 21:25:16 GMT

All of the replies that state that OS/2 is nice, you just have to know about
[very long list of details] are fine, but I never said that OS/2 wasn't
nice for those who really know it.  Neither is UNIX for that matter.

What I disagree with is that OS/2 is an easy to use system for novices.  In
the example that I mentioned, these were intelligent novices of many
different background, but OS/2 caused NUMEROUS problems for them, as I
detailed in my post.

There may be/are solutions to many of these problems, BUT they are not
apparent to the novice.  Also, the novice is immediately assaulted by the
need to use Cntrl-right mouse button, etc.  Between these things, OS/2
does not seem to be a novice friendly system.


Jess Holle
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: wilcoxt@cuug.ab.ca (Terrance Wilcox 229-3361)
Subject: Re: rtaylor@cie.uoregon.edu (Russ Taylor)
Organization: Calgary UNIX User's Group
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 16:04:24 GMT

In article <ocaoXB1w165w@bbs.draco.bison.mb.ca> jkalanuk@bbs.draco.bison.mb.ca (Jeremy Kalanuk) writes:
>
>I've use a couple nexts, and I wasn't very impressed.  The speed is 
>nothing compared to a Quadra because of the overhead of the NeXT os.  The 
>interface is annoying, as well as the two button mouse.  There is nowhere 
>near as much software as their is for the mac either.  Mac rules!
>/es
>

I've use a couple macs, and I wasn't very impressed.  The speed is
nothing compared to a 486 because of the overhead of the Mac os.  The
interface is annoying, as well as the one button mouse.  There is nowhere
near as much software as their is for the PC either.  PC rules!

I love to be able to cut and paste in a terminal window!

I left out the /es because I'm not using Hermes.

Terry Wilcox



Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: tinsel@uiuc.edu (Thomas Aaron Insel)
Subject: Re: Need to convince boss 486's are *not* way to go...
Originator: tai50080@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu
Reply-To: tinsel@uiuc.edu
Organization: Masticating Illini, Urbana Illinois
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 02:26:44 GMT

maynard@leah.msc.cornell.edu (Maynard J. Handley) writes:

> In article <C17pFB.EwK@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, tinsel@uiuc.edu (Thomas Aaron
> Insel) writes:
> >No, it wouldn't.  Most mac software works just fine under A/UX, which
> >does
> >offer premptive multitasking.  While it doesn't currently offer
> >preemptive
> >multitasking between multiple Mac applications, I see no reason why it
> >couldn't be written to do so.

> Huh????
> Have you read what you said closely? You have just admitted that, indeed
> native mac apps do not cope with pre-emptive multi-tasking, even under AUX.
> the MacOS runs as one process under AUX and within that one process
> cooperatively multitasks. Don't talk about thinks you don't understand. As
> for why it's not trivial to fit in pre-emptive multi-tasking, one simple
> reason is that the ROMs and the toolbox are not re-entrant.

Why are some toolbox routines non-reentrant?  Primarily because they store
some data in certain fixed memory locations, which would be corrupted if
the routines were called again.  With memory management, each running 
program can have its own copy of these variables.
-- 
Thomas Insel (tinsel@uiuc.edu)
  "Sex in the Champaign Public Library is being restricted to patrons 18 
   years of age and older." -- Michelle Collins, The Daily Illini
From: jkalanuk@bbs.draco.bison.mb.ca (Jeremy Kalanuk)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: 20 Jan 93 16:34:40 GMT
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 23:27:56 GMT
Organization: The Draco Unix System [BBS]

In a message written on 20 Jan 93 16:34:40 GMT, 
johnsd2@jec315.its.rpi.edu.its1 (Daniel Norman Johnson) writes:

If you have a reason to think otherwise, lets have it. But
just insulting Amigaheads isn't very nice.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I have to agree.  That message was written late at night when I was in a 
relitively bad mood.  I apoligize to all the Amiga USERS who read that 
message.


---
jkalanuk@bbs.draco.bison.mb.ca (Jeremy Kalanuk)
The Draco Unix System [BBS]

Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: howard@netcom.com (Howard Berkey)
Subject: Re: Need to convince boss 486's are *not* way to go...
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 18:09:19 GMT

In article <1993Jan20.234117.17575@nmsu.edu> bgrubb@dante.nmsu.edu (GRUBB) writes:
>howard@netcom.com (Howard Berkey) writes:
>>I'll take that bet.  The NeXT's graphics are faster on its 68040 than
>>the Quadra's are on its 68040.
>WHICH Quadra?  

Any quadra, incl. the 950

>>Note also that the ci has 8 bit color.
>WRONG! The IIci has 32-bit color even though people normally only use 8-bit
>of it at a time. ALL Present Macs have 32-bit color even though most monitors
>display either in 2-bit{black and white} or 8-bit mode.

Negative.  All macs have 32-bit QUICKDRAW but the ci hardware only
supports 8-bit video.

>>The NeXT has 16.  It's still much faster.
>Of course the NeXT is managing 65536 color while the mac is handling
>16777216 colors AND a 8-bit Alpha chanel that is partly accessable in 
>8-bit mode {SuperPaint 3.0 uses it.} regardless of what the monitor shows.
>This is 3 month old news from Mac & IBM info{Now on suxex as 
>mac-ibm-compare.txt.}

Not a ci.  It only has a pixel depth of 8 bits using it's onboard
video (which is slow even for 8-bit).

What you just said is wrong.  It's like saying that since an SE/30 has
32 bit quickdraw, all of it's mono pixels are 32 bits deep.  Guess
again.

Or better yet, try and learn something about what you are talking
about.

-- 
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Howard Berkey                                   	   howard@netcom.com
		  You will not find excess in the jungle
... .. ...   ... .. ...   ... .. ...    ... .. ...   ... .. ...   ... .. ...
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: howard@netcom.com (Howard Berkey)
Subject: Re: Need to convince boss 486's are *not* w
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 00:14:41 GMT

In article <1jn0bdINN5la@shelley.u.washington.edu> tzs@carson.u.washington.edu (Tim Smith) writes:
>kocks@leland.Stanford.EDU (Peter Kocks) writes:
>>My solution...(and I cannot believe I am actually saying this)... is Novell.
>>Novell allows you to mix Macs, Windows, OS/2, NeXT, and Unix.  Moreover,
>>the system deals well with each of the different environments.  It is used
>>by 80% of the business world, which may help you convince your boss.  You can
>>also buy a 486 server with Novell installed for probably less than the Quadra
>>server.  Novell is not married to any platform, which I consider a big plus.
>
>Why can't you believe that you are saying this?  First of all, networking is
>basically all Novell does (OK, they've been buying non-network companies, so
>this is not quite true anymore), whereas the other companies under
>consideration only do networking as a secondary thing.

Well, the 'non-network' company they bought was USL.  That's right,
Novell now owns UNIX.  Methinks they have a new OS in the brewing...
Maybe some sort of single user unix to battle with NT.

>Second, a lot of people buy Netware, even though the server software costs
>just a little bit less than than the national debt, and people continue to
>do so despite Microsoft's attempts to get get into that market.  Say what
>you will about Microsoft, but you have to admit they know how to sell stuff.
>If they can't make headway against Novell, it indicates that maybe Novell
>should be looked at.
>

I expect to see UNIX heavily marketed by Novell.  They have a very
effective and skilled advertising staff.  And as far as computers go,
AT&T would have a hard time selling free computers.  Their ad $$$ go
elsewhere. 


-Howard



-- 
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Howard Berkey                                   	   howard@netcom.com
		  You will not find excess in the jungle
... .. ...   ... .. ...   ... .. ...    ... .. ...   ... .. ...   ... .. ...
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: johnsd2@lib102.its.rpi.edu.its1 (Daniel Norman Johnson)
Subject: Re: Need to convince boss 486's are *not* w
Reply-To: johnsd2@lib102.its.rpi.edu.its1
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 01:38:47 GMT

In article 24669@athena.mit.edu, zmonster@athena.mit.edu (Eric M Hermanson) writes:
>>than PCs, becuase the only "OK" current multitasker now on the PC 
>>platform is OS/2, forget about windows.  I don't see next capturing a 
>>large share of the marketplace anytime soon, and they don't deserve to.
>>
>
>It is not next, it is NeXT.
>

Oops.. my apoligies. In my last post I misread this to say
"It is not, it is the NeXT" (ie, that is the best PC multitasker);
and I critized this for obvious reason.

Sorry about that.

---
			- Dan Johnson
And God said "Jeeze, this is dull"... and it *WAS* dull. Genesis 0:0

These opinions have had all identifiying marks removed, and are untraceable.
You'll never know whose they are.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: mwelch@aardvark.ucs.uoknor.edu (WELCH,MICHAEL)
Subject: NeXT handling of multiple languages
Originator: news@kittyhawk.ecn.uoknor.edu
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 03:17:00 GMT
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: Alabaster Films


Please forgive me, I don't understand code.

  From what I have read, however, I will try to clear up the communication
gap between Mr. Drosehn and Mr. Johnson.

  7.1 is close to NeXT's support of foreign languages. However, 7.1
does not bundle multiple language support for non-european languages
with every system sold. NeXT does this, pretty much. The exception
being Japanese and Chinese, I THINK, there may be more, or I may be
wrong, but I have heard of a NeXTSTEPj or something because when 3.0
came out I seem to remember some confusion. Anyhow, on with it.

  NeXTSTEP does not "translate" the menus into a foreign language,
just as the Mac does not either. There are certain resources, in a
Mac they are called WorldScripts, in a NeXT they are just there.
  However, I think the Mac Worldscripts also include information
about windowsizes and other graphics things which must be taken care
of when one switches languages, because some languages use more/less
space to represent the same things. Also, for example, the Japanese
Mac OS has larger fonts to make the kanji legible.
  The NeXT on the otherhand creates interfaces in a different way
than a Mac. For example, if you switch to a different language that
uses more space to explain something in a dialog, the dialog will
expand to conform to the text. This is part of object-orientation (?).
On a Mac, however, you'd have to change them yourself, in a modified
system, or use the worldscripts to change them.

I think that's right, but then again, blast away if you will.

Michael W>
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Michael Welch, University of Oklahoma, United States, 405.447.8149.
mwelch@aardvark.ucs.uoknor.edu                      mwelch@uokucsvx
"I used to dream and I used to vow...I wouldn't dream of it now"-M.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: pettsj@visigoth.demon.co.uk (James Petts)
Subject: Re: Computer abbreviations
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Organization: No Affiliation
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 16:50:30 GMT

 
> I Buy Macintosh 
> (tried that one when I applied for a job there. They were _not_ amused. Didn't 
> get the job, either)


Whew! A lucky escape!

 ===> James Petts <===

=========================================================================
   pettsj@visigoth.demon.co.uk (preferred), pettsj@cix.compulink.co.uk  
=========================================================================
James Petts   % visigoth has no connection with any other host in the
Middlesex, UK % domain "demon.co.uk" | PGP 2.0 KEY AVAILABLE FOR SWAP
=========================================================================
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: vhs@rhein-main.de (Volker Herminghaus-Shirai)
Subject: Re: Need to convince boss 486's are *not* w
Reply-To: vhs@rhein-main.de
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 93 20:30:22 GMT

In article <z1h3lbb@rpi.edu> johnsd2@jec315.its.rpi.edu.its1 (Daniel Norman  
Johnson) writes:

[a lot of NeXT bashing deleted]

Interesting to note what your organisation line shows:

>Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.

I knew Sun was afraid of NeXT but I didn't know they would bash
NeXT on usenet (especially without a disclaimer).
Oh, incidentally, you can make a Sun unusable as well by logging in
as root an deleting a bunch of system files (whether their names are
/usr/lib/NeXTSTEP/loginwindow.tiff or /vmunix or /bin/*sh doesn't
matter).

--
Volker Herminghaus-Shirai (vhs@qb.rhein-main.de), NeXTmail welcome

Looks good on the outside, but -
	intel inside
From: rtaylor@cie.uoregon.edu (Russ Taylor)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac dead?
Date: 23 Jan 1993 11:02:17 GMT
Organization: University of Oregon Network Services
NNTP-Posting-Host: cie.uoregon.edu
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5

Ray Terry (rterry@hpcupt1.cup.hp.com) wrote:
: >No kidding.  All I wanted to do was insert a Quicktime movie of
: >my gyrating navel instead of that old "Welcome to Macintosh" line.
: >Machine crashed. 
: >
: >Kaya Bekiroglu - "Don't mind him, he's just crazy"
: >kaya@world.std.com
: 
: Care to post that movie to the net?  :)
: 
: Ray

Unlike NeXT (grin) this is a simple process:

1) Drag Quicktime to system folder (probably already done)
2) Get a Quicktime movie (the hardest step)
3) Name the movie Startup Movie
4) drop it in system folder

Easy?
You bet.

Hit space bar if you get sick of the movie, btw.

Query for NeXT fans:  why would I WANT to write my own word processor?
Christ, if it can't do tables, I won't touch it.
--
************************************************************************
* "Remember, you're not losing an empire game, you're gaining a life." *
*  Russ Taylor/Brennan the Protector rtaylor@cie @honors .uoregon.edu  *
************************************************************************
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: jess@gn.ecn.purdue.edu (Jess M Holle)
Subject: Re: Need to convince boss 486's are *not* way to go...
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 93 06:33:19 GMT

>Why are some toolbox routines non-reentrant?  Primarily because they store
>some data in certain fixed memory locations, which would be corrupted if
>the routines were called again.  With memory management, each running 
>program can have its own copy of these variables.

a.k.a. static variables (for those who use C)

If Apple writes wrapper functions which get or set all the low memory
globals (private data/public methods anyone) that anybody should have 
any decent reason to mess with and gets rid of static variables, it 
would seem that they've made a big step in the right direction.


Jess Holle
From: tjhendry@queen.mcs.drexel.edu (Jonathan Hendry)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Need to convince boss 486's are *not* way to go...
Date: 23 Jan 93 01:29:10 GMT
Organization: Drexel University, Dept. of Math. and Comp. Sci.
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4

maynard@leah.msc.cornell.edu (Maynard J. Handley) writes:
: 

: How about getting sound out of X-Windows?
: Ever tried writing X code that handles 24bit images? On my mac I can code
: in one color model that works on all displays. On X I get a choice of 5
: color models.
: And what about this fun system of pallette lack of management.
: OS/2 Windows fares no better in most respects.
: 
: Maybe you mean NeXT is better than Mac in these regards---can't say. But
: your implied claim that most UNIX environments are better for programmin
: than Mac is ludicrous. Maybe they're better for character based apps, but
: not for graphical/sound apps.
: 
: Maynard Handley

Lets see. On my NeXT, in about 15-20 minutes I can write an App that will show
a rendered object , with sliders to control size and position, rotating,
and changing color. And just for hoots, I can hook up a print menuitem
which will send that image to be photorealistically rendered , with the task
split among all the NeXT's on the network.

As for sound, I can create a program which will record and play sound, and
display the graph of the sound in a scrolling view. And I can do it without
writing a single line of code. Total time:two minutes, at most.

I can also write a simple word processor, with fonts, rulers, cut/copy/paste,
and drag+drop color for the text. In about two minutes, without writing any
code.

Beat that on a Mac.

Character-based apps my pimpled ass.
--
Jonathan W. Hendry
Drexel University College Of Information Studies
Anderson Financial Systems "Programmer-in-Exile" :)
hendryjw@duvm.ocs.drexel.edu (No NEXTMail :( )
<set loose the marmosets!>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: sircomp@bcarh289.bnr.ca (Brian Magee)
Subject: Re: Need to convince boss 486's are *not* way to go...
Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd.
Distribution: na
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 93 16:37:04 GMT

In article <1993Jan22.135746.5669@gn.ecn.purdue.edu> jess@gn.ecn.purdue.edu (Jess M Holle) writes:
>Yes, the on-board video on the IIci can only handle up to 8 bits per pixel.
>
>One can add up to two additional monitors, however, which can be of any bit
>depth up to 24 bpp.
>
>The next can't handle multiple monitors, can it?
>
>Jess Holle

Actually, a cube could handle up to 4 monitors if need be... but I wouldn't
want 4 monitors that big in front of me all day so I can lose all my hair!

		Rob



--
---
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Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: sircomp@bcarh289.bnr.ca (Brian Magee)
Subject: Re: Need to convince boss 486's are *not* way to go...
Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd.
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 93 15:45:07 GMT

In article <FXaoXB2w165w@bbs.draco.bison.mb.ca> jkalanuk@bbs.draco.bison.mb.ca (Jeremy Kalanuk) writes:
>In a message written on Wed, 20 Jan 1993 00:26:50 GMT, 
>zmonster@athena.mit.edu (Eric M Hermanson) writes :
>
>In article <1jhck1INN507@pith.uoregon.edu> rtaylor@cie.uoregon.edu (Russ 
>Taylor)
> writes:
>>Question:
>>
>>If NeXT is so much more godawful fast than a Mac (which it isn't) then 
>why
>>is a 68030 Mac suitable for almost anything, while an 030 NeXT is so 
>slow
>>it got cancelled?  BTW, how fast are those 486s with NeXTstep going to 
>run
>>DisplayPostcript?  Not very, I'd wager.
> 
>If a 68030 Mac is suitable for almost anything, then why do they make 
>68040
>Macs?  Your line of reasoning is illogical.  I have a valid question, 
>however.
>WHY do the new Mac server machines run AU/X INSTEAD of MacOS????  Because
>MacOS is not even powerful enough to handle simple tasks such as file 
>serving
>and network support.
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>I think it is you who needs to chekc your logic/reasoning.  Let's face 
>it, have you ever worked on a NeXT?  I'm beginnin to think not by your 
>stupid comments.  The next machne is sluggish compared to a Quadra in 
>most cases.  It is true that in alot of OS cases etc. the NeXT behaves 
>like an 030 IIci.  The MacOS interface is also a hell of a lot better 
>than that cheap welfare interface Jobs ships with the NeXT computer!  The 
           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Huh? Should there be a smiley or two along with this statement?
There is no way that the MacOS interface even comes close to being
as nice as the one for NeXTSTEP!

>MacOS isn't pre-emptive multitasking, I'll admit that, but it's comming 
>up!  But with all of thsoe things you said about Mac, it was still better 
>than PCs, becuase the only "OK" current multitasker now on the PC 
>platform is OS/2, forget about windows.  I don't see next capturing a 
>large share of the marketplace anytime soon, and they don't deserve to.
>
>
>---
>jkalanuk@bbs.draco.bison.mb.ca (Jeremy Kalanuk)
>The Draco Unix System [BBS]


		Rob
--
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