From: b645zaw@utarlg.uta.edu (Stephen Tice)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Re: A nation chosen by GOD -- New-Israel
Date: 12 Jan 93 05:34:00 GMT
Organization: The University of Texas at Arlington
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <1itbtrINN2dg@fido.asd.sgi.com>, 
livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes...

>In article <11JAN199318425836@utarlg.uta.edu>, 
>b645zaw@utarlg.uta.edu (Stephen Tice) writes:
>|> In article <1iqg75INNqnd@fido.asd.sgi.com>, 
>|> livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes... 
>|> >In article <10JAN199316392323@utarlg.uta.edu>, 
>|> >b645zaw@utarlg.uta.edu (Stephen Tice) writes:
>|> >>
>|> >> Schooling should include a healthy dose of skepticism of anything
>|> >> humanly contrived. Do I sound like a religionist or an atheist?
>|> > 
>|> >Neither.   You just sound out of touch.   
>|> 
>|> So who can be in touch with more than a couple of hundred schools?
>|> (Or perhaps you meant something else?) In other words, who knows,
>|> generally speaking? 
> 
>Your local school board for one.    Trot down and tell them "We shold
>be teaching scepticisim" and I think that the answer will be "We do".

Noted. And I bet they're a bunch of bureacrats. Who sit at desks rather
than visit schools.

>|> >School Science books that
>|> >I've seen explain fairly well how Science makes progress by trying
>|> >models out and then discarding them.    They don't present Scientific
>|> >progress as an inevitable determinisitc progression.    
>|> 
>|> What progress? Should I look at medicine, or energy production, or 
>|> pollution levels. Best I can tell, most everything is on the slide. 
>|> Especially school test scores.
> 
>If you think that Science is making no progress, that's your privilege.
>Doubtless you can come up with a "christian" definition of progress that
>indicates we are going backwards.

I certainly can come up with an anarchist one.

>I'm using the notion of progress that I think most ordinary people 
>would recognize.   More knowledge, more useful techniques, better
>drugs, better surgical techniques, and so on.

At what price Jon? I'll contend that it's mostly been built by 
government oppression. And currently has ensnared most people
in a high stress, low reward life.

>Your counter-example is unconvincing.   It's not "science" that
>produces pollution.   In fact, it's Scientists who are developing
>new techniques for dealing with pollution.   

Jon, I thought you were Randian. Your assertion ignores what it
takes to produce those developments in the term of how funding is
gathered and what must be done by people from who that funding is
taken. 

>Pollution is produced - broadly speaking - by people who think that 
>making a profit, which is quite acceptable in itself, of course, 
>entitles them to abuse the environment.

How many industry jobs, and how much commuting does it take to produce
the income, from which taxes are taken to fund science and academia?

In the vernacular -- Scientist, by in large prostitute themselves
to power brokers. Just like churches do. Just like government does.
Just like every other human intitution. It's not that it's neutral,
it's that it is used by people intent on sucking off a small piece
for themselves at the expense of everyone. The bigger the mess the
more they get away with.

>Similarly, it's not "science" that causes declines in school scores.

No, more likely -- it's television, and a constant barrage of 
distractions that wash over kids increasingly so in our society.
Including the city, and it's crowding, including the cultural
diversity that seems so right to expose kids too, etc. etc. etc.

>In European countries, and Japan, where there isn't quite the same
>blind obedience to markets and to hell with society, scores are
>holding up quite well.    But that's a topic for discussion elsewhere,
>if at all.    I certainly won't discuss it here.

Sorry, of course you're not a Radian, or a libertarian -- your a
liberal and likely a democrat. From the sounds of it. 

Let's let it go. You get the last shot, here or in t.p.m.
We aren't going to come to any agreement. I'll only become 
more convinced that democrats are jack-ass-stubborn and 
self-righteous, and it's taken enough work since the election
to even become tolerant of democrats again

>jon.

As a person, you're ok jon. Even as an atheist.

As a partisan, forget it. You ain't worth it.

"General Quarters"
Newsgroups: alt.atheism,talk.religion.misc