From: bill.dehaan@rose.com (bill dehaan)
Subject: Picric acid?
Organization: Rose Media Inc, Toronto, Ontario.
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 01:43:45 GMT
X-Gated-By: Usenet <==> RoseMail Gateway (v1.70)


Date Entered: 01-07-93 20:39
In message <1993Jan6.214419.18689@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com>,
billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson) writes:

BD>I stand corrected. The stuff *does* crystalize, I (and the fireman who
BD>explained it to us) thought it was a breakdown. Whether it's due to age,
BD>contamination, or cosmic rays, it's still nothing you want to mess with.

BN>Nope - picric acid is crystaline. It is often/usually sold wet. When it dries
BN>any of the dissolved acid would form crystals. Your fireman's explanation
BN>shows that he didn't know what he was talking about. He should stick to the
BN>fighting of fires, and leave explosives to the demolitions experts.

No kidding.

BN>As I stated above, the crystalization is not a breakdown - in any way.

Well, that's what we were told.

BN>Picric acid is a secondary high explosive. It is a secondary explosive
BN>because it is not easy to initiate the pure chemical by shock, friction
BN>or flame.  It is a more powerful explosive than TNT.

BD>Yeah, that part I remember. They were _very_ careful with it. I'm not
BD>sure what else they grabbed, but the picric acid was the stuff that they
BD>were _seriously_ concerned about.

BN>You didn't read very carefully what I wrote. It is NOT very sensitive.
BN>Now, you need to be more careful with opened bottles, since they could
BN>have been contaminated with some metal.

I worded it badly. Two statements: (1) I remember them mentioning that
it was a secondary explosive; and (2) they were very careful handling
it. Rereading what I originally wrote, I see what you mean, though.

BN>... delided ...

Uh, vas is das "delided" ?

BD>They were fools, I guess. Maybe they put something that would detonate
BD>next to the acid, and aimed for that? I wasn't taking notes at the time,
BD>and students were hardly permitted an onsight inspection.

BD>What I saw was them take the stuff out of the lab, and about an half our
BD>or so later, a bunch of cops carried a big box out into the center of
BD>the back football field and blasted it. Big bang. EOpicric.

BN>Your story is changing. First, it was the fireman - now it is the police.
BN>First, it was 5 or 6 gallons, now it is "the stuff theat they considered
BN>too dangerous to transport".

How's the story changing? Firemen showed up to do a safety inspection
and clear the labs out (the school was closing the next year), found the
stuff, and called the disposal outfit. I was _assuming_ that the people
who showed up with equipment to dispose of explosives were Police, given
that rifles are hardly standard firefighting equipment in Canada.
Whether that was fire department, police, or dog catchers is a moot
point, at least to me. They looked like cops, I called them cops. They
could be some other quasi-official outfit, for all I know.

And I said there was 5 or 6 gallons (or at least 5 or 6 one gallon
containers); I don't know how full the containers were, and how much
they took out in the field. Also, you may have noticed my original
statement: "I'm not sure what else they grabbed". Could very well be
that they had some other reason for shooting the thing up other than the
picric acid, although they told us that was what the reason was.

I wasn't measuring the stuff; I was just a grade 12 student watching the
show (it was a great amusement, the periodic table stuff was getting
really boring). This happened in 1979; I wasn't taking down badge
numbers and service registrations.

BD>Since it happened in January, on the back football field, I doubt it was
BD>a serious problem for the football team, since they didn't use the back
BD>field.  As for scattered glass on the field, the level of vandalism at
BD>our school was such that a few more hundred shards would probably not be
BD>noticed. ;-( [and for all I know, those jugs could have been plastic
BD>rather than glass]

BN>Picric acid is not stored in plastic - it is stored in glass.

Which is why I said "for all I know"; I didn't have hands-on experience
with the containers. The stuff looked like glass, and I assumed that it
was glass, but since you seem to be looking for a great level of detail,
I thought I would point out that I wasn't certain what the container
was. Could have been plastic, could have been glass.

BN>If the picric acid was dissolved in water, it will not explode.
BN>If more than a ounce or so was detonated, there would be a big
BN>hole in the field.
BN>The police would not "shoot" the material with a rifle. They would
BN>use a blasting cap.

Maybe we had a cop doing a Rambo imitation; or perhaps he wanted to show
off. Maybe there was a blasting cap in there? I'm just telling you what
I saw. If you're looking for more details, you're out of luck. If you're
expecting me to defend the way these guys behaved, forget it. If you say
they did the wrong thing, go talk to the Oakville Fire Department.

BN>Yes, I have worked with explosives disposal. By the way, of the

Yes, it sounds like like you have a bit more experience than they did.
Which isn't all that surprising; I doubt that they're called in to do
this very often.

BN>hundreds of bottles of picric acid that have been found and disposed
BN>of - I do not know of a single accidental explosion. It just is not
BN>close to being as dangerous as the media/police would have people
BN>believe.

Oh, quite possibly. But that doesn't stop the police/fire departments
from still treating as such.

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