HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mlloyd@castle.ed.ac.uk (M Lloyd)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: This Weekend
Date: 9 Sep 92 23:41:41 GMT
Organization: Edinburgh University

In article <MUFFY.92Sep8230207@remarque.berkeley.edu> muffy@remarque.berkeley.edu (Muffy Barkocy) writes:
[on niceness in men - a bizarre idea I'm slowly getting used to]
>However, now that I've been meeting bi men, most of them
>seem to have a high potential for niceness, so I'm hoping to add to my
>collection...*grin*...

"Hoping"???  So lemmee see - either I'm not bi, or I'm only potentially
nice, by the implicit logic here .. :-)

For myself, I might still have questions about my bisexuality, but I've
been to bed with some men who might not ... *grin*  Semi-seriously,
the more exposure I get to the gay male community (very little
so far, but increasing), the more it becomes clear to me that there
are groups I would not be at all happy in - displays of emphasised
maleness (as classically defined) do nothing positive for me.
Wit beats machismo every time for me, and long hair wins over
pectorals.  Still, being bisexual doesn't mean that I
have to like every aspect of same-sex interaction any more
than being het means I lust after every woman.  Sometimes I feel
"less bi" because I don't get a kick out of supposedly arousing
male images, but then I realise I'm just letting myself be judged
by someone else's gender roles again.  I could be a Kinsey .1x10^-6
for all I care; I still wear my 'freedom rings' necklace with pride,
because I don't give a damn about "their" definitions and categories.
(I have a "they're lying" pin which I wear a lot too :-)

But that other thread about "can there be an inclusive bi-space?" -
the fact that I suspect I'm really only attracted to men who are
comfortable with a fair bit of "femininity" in them doesn't
preclude the existence of good bispace.  What does it matter if
we all have different tastes?  Isn't that rather the point?
"The object here is to celebrate difference", as they said at
Wigstock on Monday (did any other s.b'ers make it there?).
I think I can say that most bisexuals I've met have had
(at least slightly) different orientations to mine.  Bispace
has still proven to be the most accepting, positive space I've
come across (even beating fundie religious students :-).

Mike, washing his "am I really bi?" laundry in public for no more
reason than that he feels like it.  I feel better for getting it 
off my chest.  Now back to your usual programming ...
-- 
Mike Lloyd                         | B0/1 h- f- t w- c g+ k(+) s m- e? 
Retro-hippy, music nut, bi and     | "The Trouble with Normal is it
owner of a one-track mind:         |  Always Gets Worse" - Bruce Cockburn
   "thesis .. thesis .. thesis"    |    (-:   F**k Your Gender!  :-)
From: sr09@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (SIMON NICHOLAS RUSSELL)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: Disturbed
Date: 9 Sep 92 13:58:56 GMT
Organization: Lehigh University


>>Still, I guess I can dream.  Course offerings for the Fall?  "Am(bi)valent
>>Writers of the English Renaissance," "The Court Circle of Charles II," and a
>>seminar on hermaphroditism.  And, of course, 20% of the final grade depends on
>>"class participation."
>
>With the article on hermaphroditism in Shakespeare's time, as relevant to his
>comedies being obligatory? I can provide references - fascinating stuff about
>a rather well-endowed serving maid who'd been sleeping with her lady getting
>her gender reassigned as male in order to marry (irreversible assignation),
>inter alia.

 Yes, please.  One of my projects at the moment is an exploration of the
 discourse of hermaphroditism in the Renaissance/Restoration, and how it
 intersects with other "confusion of gender" issues such as cross-dressing and
 sexual preference.  I know that there are a number of documented cases of
 hermaphroditism during this period (and many hermaphrodites displayed
 alongside elephants and camels as "circus" exhibits...), and any stuff you
 might have covering 1550-1725 would be most gratefully received. I'm building
 up quite a collection!

>And please remember your unbowdlerised texts of John Wilmot's
>works - we will be covering the morality of frigging in the pastoral with
>reference to Fair Cloris, as well as the darker poems such as the Disabled
>Debauchee. A Ramble in St. James' Park and Signior Dildo are required reading.

        This Signior is sound, safe, ready, and Dumb,
        As ever was Candle, Carret, or Thumb:
        Then away with these nasty devices, and Show
        How you rate the just merits of Signior Dildo.

My dear, I never go anywhere without my unbowdlerised Rochester!  And, to
balance our curriculum, we must also have some of Aphra Behn's delightfully
dirty poetry.

>Extra credit will be given for familiarity with the euphemisms and slang of
>the texts studies, and for being able to perform the Fig Gesture correctly.

>I think a joint chair is essential for such a crucial field. Simon?

Definitely.  The department would need the both of us to get complete
coverage!  We could split the salary and open a fabulous salon.

>Tanaqui

Simon.
-- 

***************************************************************************
* Simon Morgan-Russell    "I love to lie o' both sides o' th' bed myself" *
* SR09@LEHIGH.EDU          Middleton & Dekker's "The Roaring Girl" (1608) *
***************************************************************************
From: osmith@acorn.co.uk (Owen Smith)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: Norwich
Date: 7 Sep 92 18:01:07 GMT
Organization: Acorn Computers Ltd, Cambridge, England

In article <memo.611369@cix.compulink.co.uk> cliveg@cix.compulink.co.uk
(Clive Grace) writes:

>I just saw Mike Oldfield's Tubular Bells II on television tonight, 
>Big Screen, Nicam Stereo. The BBC did a good job of the photography.
>I was just looking at the castle and the shots of Edinburgh put tears
>in my eyes. I miss Edinburgh lots, I miss you & the Edinburgh crowd lots.

The trouble with never watching TV because it's all crap, is that when
something worth watching like this finally comes on, nobody tells me about
it. Bugger. And we haven't got Nicam and the video's got mono sound. :-(

Owen "I want Dolby Surround for watching Fantasia" Smith.
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: panda@Micor.OCUnix.on.ca (Elizabeth Holden)
Subject: Re: Guardian Norwich article
Organization: M.B. Cormier INC.
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 92 23:05:50 EDT

J.W.Harley@newcastle.ac.uk (Jon Harley) writes:

> 
> I don't feel she is; I first came out to her last year, and still she tells
> me that bisexuality is wrong and I should suppress it and be mono. It's

Hmmm.... Jon, maybe you should just try not to worry about it.  It's her 
problem and don't let her make it yours.  If she's trying to get you to 
change your life to her specifications, just don't let her do it.  She 
will have to be tolerant or lose your -- I don't know.  I don't know what 
stakes you are dealing with her.  I do no that no one can afford to live 
as someone else wishes them to when those wishes are at odds with their 
own nature, and I would suspect that deception would be just as bad, 
especially if you have been close.

It's hard, but compromise on some things damages too much.

Namaste,
Elizabeth
From: angi@festival.ed.ac.uk (Angi Lamb)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: Michigan Wom*n's Music Festival
Date: 5 Sep 92 02:25:03 GMT

cliveg@cix.compulink.co.uk (Clive Grace) writes:
|                        I cannot touch straight people nearly as much
|as Bi people who seem to be far more clued-up on body politics and the
|need for consenting and intimate (but non-sexual) touch -- not all Bi
|people know about or respect these boundaries, and I don't assume they do,
|but most Bi people I come across respect my boundaries and that makes me
|feel safe amongst them.

<Clive writes movingly about his experiences and consequences>

I agree about bi-space feeling safe.  I was also abused.  Thanks to the
safety i have felt and the encouragement i have had from people like
Clive and Bill and Mike and Sara and many others, i have started
healing. 

I wrote the following about Norwich.

Safety.  I liked the explicit provision of safety.  Bi people taking
responsibilty on themselves to help create safe bi space for themselves
and others.  A sense of mutuality.  It's working, guys (in the American
gender neutral sense).  A woman said with much courage at the closing
plenary that it's important for us to take on board our experience of
abuse from survivors and others.  Especially in the context of exploring
non-traditional forms of sexuality.  A man was right to stand up and say
that other people should also take responsibility for perceived abusive
behaviour like sexual harassment in those around us.  We are not all
able and nor should we have to deal with abuse ourselves.  This
personally sums up UK BiCon 92 for me. 

I choose to live. And you should have seen what i was wearing in safe bi
space :-).

Angi
--
"Being alive carries far more responsibility than living. Everything has
cause and effect." Anon, writer's workshop, UK BiCon 92, Norwich.
From: osmith@acorn.co.uk (Owen Smith)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: Guardian Norwich article
Date: 7 Sep 92 16:55:53 GMT
Organization: Acorn Computers Ltd, Cambridge, England

In article <18317@acorn.co.uk> osmith@acorn.co.uk (Owen Smith) writes:

>Just had another amusing thought. The article said there were three cross
>dressers in the final plenary. I'm fairly certain there were only two. I
>think the writer's third was actually a transsexual (I'd give her name but
>I've been warned about quoting names). A case of transsexual invisibility?

Hmm, I think I'm getting hyper sensitive. I ordered a Vegetarion pizza at
the Oasis burger/pizza/kebab/etc. place, and I definietly heard a "bloody
vegetarians" whisper from behind me. I was annoyed for two reasons: 1) it
was a case of omnivore invisibility; I'm quite partial to meat but I happen
to like the Vegetarian pizza at Oasis and 2) why in this modern "liberated"
age do people feel any need to make nasty comments about vegetarians? I'm
cynical about vegans (eating a diet that is nutrionally deficient without
taking supplemental tablets strikes me as just plain daft) but if they want
to live that way then fine.

I was happy being politically apathetic, so do I really have to go through a
politically aware and vocal phase just to earn what should be a right,
namely the right to exist?

Owen.
From: gtoal@ibmpcug.co.uk (Graham Toal)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: Bi pamphlet - enough already! 8->
Date: 4 Sep 92 00:53:09 GMT
Organization: The IBM PC User Group, UK.

In article <25497@castle.ed.ac.uk> sara@castle.ed.ac.uk (Swamp Thing) writes:
:>Do *I* count ....?      <innocent look>
:
:If you do then that makes you a mathematician, sorry ...

Oh Ghod!  Sara and I crack the same jokes!  This is the beginning of the end...

G
--
From: bethan@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Bethan Davies)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: Norwich
Date: 4 Sep 92 16:31:49 GMT
Followup-To: soc.bi
Organization: Centre for Cognitive Science, Edinburgh, UK

In article <25448@castle.ed.ac.uk> elee52@castle.ed.ac.uk (Bill Gammie) writes:
>In article <25369@castle.ed.ac.uk> angi@festival.ed.ac.uk (Angi Lamb) writes:
>>cliveg@cix.compulink.co.uk (Clive Grace) writes:
>
>>
>>|The Edinbugh crowd will have had a hell of a drive back, the drive down
>>|must have taken 8-hours and they left after I left (which was 7:00pm).
>>|So they're gonna be out of it for a few days. Bill (Gamie) I hope you
>
>    That's Gammie, Clive. I see you need another session with
>    the lilo pump.
>
>>|secured the best seat on the Bus for Bethan?...
>
>    Bethan secured her own seat (with hurtful straps and buckles).

I don't know _what_ you're implying, Bill....
The mere fact that I somehow managed to appropriate enough seats to lie
down and go to sleep on does not mean that I annexed them by force... :)

We got back at about 4.45am.... I pity those who had to go to work the
next day....


>>Flugelhorn sexual orientation valve actually :-) but please don't ask. 
>
>    This and other wonders will be the subject of a separate post.
>     You have been warned.

We're waiting, Bill...
(Some of us were otherwise occupied...er...asleep)

>>"My name is Hopkins ..., Sara Hopkins ..., double oh six." Bill Gammie
>
>   This was closely followed by:
>   "Fuck off, Bill". - Sara (secret agent) Hopkins.

For those not in the know, 006 was Sara's room number...
(How she managed to be on a different corridor to the rest of us, I don't
know...)

>There were also journalists present from the Guardian and
>the Sunday Express (who pricked up their ears at the

See today's Grauniad, in fact...
Now _that_ would have been a neat way to come out....

>We also had a talk by a nutter from the south of France
                         ^^^^^^
seconded...

>There were 5 reported cases of sexual harassment but on
>the plus side a woman stood up at the closing plenary
>session and said that she really liked the disco because
>she could strip and not feel harassed (yey!!!).

Also seconded...

>The 20 hours we spent traveling in the minibus are best
>forgotten (the joke that Scotch Corner got its name because

Aww... I don't know. It had its moments... The visual memory of you 
in bunches will stay with me for a long time.... even if it was 
indirectly responsible for Dave mis-navigating, and Nikki (the driver) 
nearly taking the minibus off the road...


What a wonderful weekend!


                           <HUGS>



                             Bethan


"Thank you for travelling by Bisexual Buses. Please remember on leaving the
bus that there may be monosexuals around. Please do not stare."

(courtesy on our in-bus entertainment system (aka Bill))
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: panda@Micor.OCUnix.on.ca (Elizabeth Holden)
Subject: Re: Geraldo show on bi-folk
Organization: M.B. Cormier INC.
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 92 08:56:21 EDT

h431@quads.uchicago.edu (heather e blair) writes:

> 
> The audience mostly wanted to argue with Charles and Janice about their


> open marriage.  Geraldo wanted to argue that you were either homo or het.

I thought that notion went out with the last century.

> Tom Smith dodged anyone's questions about his dishonesty with his wife
> of 45 years, by whining about how your sexual orientation is fixed and
> not "curable".
> 

Charming.  Embarrassing.

> 
> Looks like us bi's have a lot of educational scut-work to do.

Amen!  But I hardly know where to start.

> 
> I want to thank Charles, Janice, and Lorraine for being brave bi activists.

Absolutely.  Hip Hip Hooray.  Really.  Too bad they didn't have a chance 
to tell the real story.

> 
> Ugh!  I hate mainstream, popular culture.  I want to escape into a hole 
> and listen to every single one of Beethoven's piano sonatas until I feel
> human again.
> -- 
> 
> - Heather Blair       h431@midway.uchicago.edu


...And to think I was really disappointed that I forgot to set my VCR and 
missed the whole thing.  Now I think I'm glad I did. It would have been 
so frustrating.....

Namaste,
Elizabeth
From: muffy@remarque.berkeley.edu (Muffy Barkocy)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: whatever . . .
Date: 10 Sep 92 17:39:53
Organization: Natural Language Incorporated
	<1992Sep7.184451.3297@dsg.cs.tcd.ie> <1992Sep10.133720.10839@tfs.com>
	<9225509.5964@mulga.cs.mu.OZ.AU>
NNTP-Posting-Host: remarque.berkeley.edu
In-reply-to: nsn@ee.mu.OZ.AU's message of Thu, 10 Sep 1992 23:48:34 GMT

In article <9225509.5964@mulga.cs.mu.OZ.AU> nsn@ee.mu.OZ.AU (Nick Nicholas) writes:
> My being me takes priority over my being bi. And my being me entails that
> I will resent rejection. Even if it's not at all rational, I will say that.
> Whether it win me fans or derision. I could have no respect for myself if
> all I allowed myself to feel about this thread (which dammit, has kept me
> up at nights) was "Yes dear, you know best, and men deserve to be ignored,
> too." Well maybe they do. But I'm not going to be blissful about it.

*SIGH*...Here's the original article:

<Newsgroups: soc.bi
<From: pclary@mushroom.csc.calpoly.edu (Ellen Clary)
<Subject: Re: trainspotting (no longer)
<Date: Sun, 06 Sep 92 05:04:57 GMT

<woodhous@latcs2.lat.oz.au (Joe P Woodhouse) wrote...
<>"Firefighters called in to rescue an Australian man found bound & naked
<>on a hot tub deck".
<> [and other previous stuff about being summarily ravished...]

<You know Joe, it occurs to me that you might want to bring another
<man along for this get together.  It's been my experience that when
<there's one man with a group of women, the man gets ignored entirely.
<(Or wasn't I supposed to mention that? ... ;-) )

<Ellen

Ellen did *NOT* say that the man was intentionally ignored, much less
"rejected."  Yes, *IF* someone were suggesting that a man in a group
which was otherwise composed of women *SHOULD* be ignored/rejected, THEN
you would have cause for anger.  In this case, however, there was a
friendly, chatty sort of thread going on and Ellen made an observation
clearly designed to be humorous (note the ";-)").  She did *NOT* say
that he *should* be ignored or that they would *try* to ignore him.

So, what exactly are you angry about?

Muffy
--

Muffy Barkocy | muffy@mica.berkeley.edu | wi.4636@wizvax.methuen.ma.us
~Little round planet/in a big universe/sometimes it looks blessed/
 sometimes it looks cursed/Depends on what you look at, obviously/
 But even more it depends on the way that you see~ - Bruce Cockburn
From: tdober@llnl.gov (TDO)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: whatever . . .
Date: 14 Sep 92 20:53:54 GMT
Followup-To: soc.bi
Organization: llnl

In article <1992Sep11.140437.1910@bcrka451.bnr.ca>, bbooth@x400gate.bnr.ca
(Brad Booth) wrote:

["What I *didn't* mean..." stuff deleted]

> What I was trying to get across is that in all case *I've* seen
> where there is a group of women and one man, that man gets ignored
> because he tends to be more physical and sexually abrasive/rough.

Dear, how do you *know* why the man is being ignored? Have you gone around
and asked each of the women present in such a group what her reasons were
for ignoring him? Or are you making assumptions about their motivations
without any direct knowledge of the specifics involved?

>     __o     Brad Booth

TDO (wary of generalizations, and suspecting that the reasons for
     such a situation arising are as various as the participants...)
--
#include "StdDisclaimer.h"

Pain, like time, is going to come on regardless. Question is, what glorious
moments can you win from life in addition to the pain? -- Lois McMaster
Bujold, _Barrayar_
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: michael.langthorne.1@nd.edu ()
Subject: Re: A nagging question
Followup-To: soc.bi
Organization: University of Notre Dame
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 17:50:48 GMT

so John, what if people are just sexual?  let me re-phrase that; what if,
at the age hormones start guiding the mind and body, people simply become
sexual?  Labels and questions and kicking oneself would lose a lot of
value!
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: asuccop@milton.u.washington.edu (Annemarie Succop)
Subject: Re: Bi Unsafe Space
Organization: University of Washington
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1992 06:17:56 GMT


	liz, i'd say the vogue is more of a mixed industrial type dance
	place than an adertised-as-bi bar.

	i've felt comfy being bi there, but then again, i'm a girl.

	annemarie
	asuccop@u.washington.edu
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: ecsd@tfs.com (Eric C. S. Dynamic)
Subject: Re: whatever . . .
Organization: TFS
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1992 13:07:02 GMT

nsn@ee.mu.OZ.AU (Nick Nicholas) writes:
>Eric Dynamic writes...
>
>and I don't care what anyone else says; I don't care if I'm seen as letting
>down my bi comrades, or being a het-oriented sleaze; Eric, now that he's 
>actually clarified what he was talking about (and granted, it was not 
>clear at first) speaks for me completely. I certainly couldn't have verbalised
>the anger I felt about the thread as well as he.
>
>(Well, ok, maybe I could have done a bit better on the grammar :)

This is confusing, "bi comrades" etc. is not my authorship. Just so we
understand the ellipsis (...) is the entirety of what I wrote - thru the
end!

>
>And if that means that *I* get flamed too, tough. Before I stand for what
>the groups I am aligned with believe in, I must stand for what I believe in.
>My being me takes priority over my being bi. And my being me entails that
>I will resent rejection. Even if it's not at all rational, I will say that.
>Whether it win me fans or derision. I could have no respect for myself if
>all I allowed myself to feel about this thread (which dammit, has kept me
>up at nights) was "Yes dear, you know best, and men deserve to be ignored,
>too." Well maybe they do. But I'm not going to be blissful about it.

It's my big theme now (due to events in my local e-mail) to pull women
up and say, if you don't like how men have treated you, it's more than a
bit cynical to use "their" tactics on them, then deny you are other than
holy.

All I see men doing is trying to reconcile. Their largest "crime" seems
to be waving their cocks out the window saying "wanna share??" - it may
be crude, but it hasn't the intention to hurt. Women say "crude assholes
suck off!" and that DOES have the intention to hurt - and the reply is
the response is "justified", further there seems to be no notion that
the women making this response have any responsibility to see the irony
of it.

I have yet to see (not that that proves anything) men abusing women in
this or similar ways in the net, but be assured I would attack them just
as viciously as I already had done here. I'm attacking the ATTACKER.

-ec "mr. high-minded moral virtue" sd
From: gtoal@ibmpcug.co.uk (Graham Toal)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: Appreciate Chocolate Now and Avoid the Rush!
Date: 4 Sep 92 01:11:26 GMT
Organization: The IBM PC User Group, UK.

In article <1992Sep4.003800.49618@ccvax.ucd.ie> pflynn@ccvax.ucd.ie (Peter Flynn, Official Muffin-sampler) writes:
>BTW, who likes their chocolate warm and soft (kept in the pocket)
>and who likes it hard and cold (kept in the fridge)?

Actually I prefer it warm and hard.  Don't suppose you could keep it
in your pocket along with some ice-cubes?

G
--
From: zzaascd@meehpa.ee.man.ac.uk (Colin Dente)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: This Weekend
Date: 7 Sep 92 10:34:21 GMT
Reply-To: colin@manchester.ac.uk
Organization: Department of Electrical Engineering, University of Manchester

In article <25560@castle.ed.ac.uk>, angi@festival.ed.ac.uk (Angi Lamb) writes:
|> mlloyd@castle.ed.ac.uk (M Lloyd) writes:
|> 
|> |Mike, in no-holds-barred flirting mood
|> 
|> Can i join in too? I've got post-flirting blues from Norwich. And
|> Edinburgh Bi Groupd only meets once a week *pout*.
             ^^^^^^^^^

You have a Bi Group daemon?!  Wow!  What machine does it run on?  What
transport protocol?  TCP or UDP?  Let's see... they're bisexuals, so won't be using a reliable transport like TCP - okay so which UDP socket do I connect
to?  Why have I turned into a networking spod all of a sudden?

Perhaps I'd better go and lie down...

Colin
  Colin Dente                     | JANET: dente@uk.ac.manchester
  Manchester Computing Centre     | ARPA:  dente@manchester.ac.uk
  University of Manchester, UK    | UUCP:  ...!mcsun!ukc!manchester!dente
   ... Blatantly Bisexual ...     | B3/4 f+ c g+(+) k(+) r s
Newsgroups: soc.bi