From: btiffany@pbs.org
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re:  Clean and Unclean
Date: 14 Sep 92 15:48:39 GMT
Organization: PBS:Public Broadcasting Service, Alexandria, VA


           ** Submitted for Bruce Benning by Bruce Tiffany **
           --------------------------------------------------

>From: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (Robert A. Levene)
>Subject: Re: Clean And Unclean

>Bruce Benning writes:
>
>> [...] While some  sins were atoned for initialy without blood,
>> they were indeed covered by blood once a year by the High Priest
>> on Yom Kippor.
>[...]
>
>How do Jews get atonement without sacrifices?

 Only by the grace of the Lord.

>The numerous passages which describe how prayer and repentance are
>capable of earning atonement are *not* meant to call for the
>elimination of sacrifices, but to show that they can substitute.
>
>  Consider a motorboat which also has oars.  Both the motor and the oars
>  can propel the boat.  However, the presence of oars doesn't mean one
>  should jettison the motor.  It does mean that in case the motor breaks
>  down, you can still reach your destination by rowing, just as Jews
>  earn atonement through prayer and recalling the Temple service.

  Don't be so easily self-deceived. If you desire to develop your view of
  Almight_G-d through _Field and Stream Magazine_ that is fine by me.
  I prefer the WORD of G-d.
>

>Furthermore, we learn from Lev. 16:31 that the Yom Kippur service is a
>law for all time, Temple or not (Sforno).  From verse 34, we learn
>that observance of the day itself brings atonement, as explained in
>more detail in Yoma 86.

 OK. Now we can talk. Lev. 16:31 says the Yom Kippur is a law for all
 time. It also describes how to practice the day according to G-d's
 careful direction. Where does it say that in case of no temple the
 practice changes? And what is your English interpretation of Lev 16:34?

 Mine says:
   This is to be a lasting ordinance for you: Atonement is to be
    made once a year for all the sins of the Israelites." (NIV)

 How was atonement made? Lev 16:15,16,18,24,25 tell me it was with blood
 and not through prayer (though prayer was part of the act). I would say
 you are stuck in your boat with no acceptable means for propulsion with
 out What God says you need for true atonement.

 Of course, you're perfectly free to state "According to RABBINIC Judaism,
 atonement can be made through prayers alone." Go right ahead, but don't
 call your ideas TORAH Judaism in light of Leviticus 16.


     Bruce Benning __________ benning@iccgcc.decnet.ab.com

       -------------Religion may inform and reform-------------
       ----------but only Messiah Jesus can Transform----------

     Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do
     what it says. Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what
     it says is like a man who looks at his face in a mirror and,
     after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what
     he looks like. But the man who looks intently into the perfect
     law that gives freedom, and continues to do this, not forgetting
     what he has heard, but doing it--he will be blessed in what he
     does. -James 1:22-25
Newsgroups: alt.messianic