HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: dsh@odin.ece.ncsu.edu (Doug Holtsinger)
Subject: Re: WHO OWNS WHO?...or is it whom?...or what?
Organization: North Carolina State University
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 20:46:37 GMT

In article <1992Aug16.005011.3902@menudo.uh.edu> 
HADCRJAM@admin.uh.edu (MILLER, JIMMY A.) writes:

>In <7c7m1nl.gordons@netcom.com> gordons@netcom.com writes:

>> HADCRJAM@admin.uh.edu (MILLER, JIMMY A.) :

>>> And to clear up something I just noticed, Gordon's first post seems to 
>>> imply a "forcing the woman" viewpoint on the part of the original poster.  
>>> I do not support "forcing" not be forced to carry to term.
 
>> Glad to hear that you are pro-choice.  For some reason I had the
>> impression you were pro-life (in terms of legislation).  Please, correct
>> me if I'm in error.

> Consider yourself corrected.  Meet the anti-abortion but pro-choice person
> that does more than pay lip service to the first part of his stance.

Wait just a second.  Didn't you once claim that most pro-lifers do not
agree with Steve Chaney's remarks?  If you're now claiming to be pro- 
"choice", then what business do you have saying such a thing?  

And since you're claiming to be pro-"choice", do you support unrestricted 
abortion on demand throughout the term of pregnancy?  

>Jammer Jim Miller 


Doug Holtsinger
From: regard@sdd.hp.com (Adrienne Regard)
Newsgroups: talk.abortion
Subject: Re: CONFIRMED---> Re: Randall Terry running for Congress
Date: 13 Aug 1992 11:18:30 -0700
Organization: Hewlett Packard, San Diego Division
NNTP-Posting-Host: hpsdde.sdd.hp.com

In article <BswqJ4.KtH@chinet.chi.il.us> katefans@chinet.chi.il.us (Chris'n'Vickie of Chicago) writes:
>Can you imagine Randall Terry in *Congress*??? Side show city!


I can.  Unfortunately, we have someone rather like him in our city
council....
1.  Investigating bringing a water park to our city (for children's
recreation).  We are acknowledged as desert.
2.  Inviting protestant religious leaders to a meeting he held to discuss
the political involvement of same -- on city stationery.  And protestants
only.
3. Asking our city council to take a stand against SAN DIEGO United Way
because of what SAN FRANCISO United way was doing with Boy Scount funding.
4.  Suggesting we pave our hard won riding and hiking trails with asphalt;
and, failing that, give the 8 to 12 foot easements 'back' to the city.    
5. Moving in a city council meeting that local PRIVATE organizations be,
by city fiat, opened to the public, at a COST TO THE PRIVATE MEMBERS.

There are nuts in all levels of government.  So Terry wants a turn.  I'd    
suggest folks tell him no.

Adrienne Regard

Newsgroups: talk.abortion,alt.abortion.inequity,soc.men
From: Larry Margolis <margoli@watson.ibm.com>
Subject: Re: Stranded on an Island
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 06:25:52 GMT
Reply-To: margoli@watson.IBM.com
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: The Village Waterbed

In  <1992Aug20.021010.16000@zooid.guild.org>  Will Steeves <goid@zooid.guild.org> writes:
>
> But I WOULD like to see the foetus recognised as a person,

And I'd like to see myself recognized as emperor of the world.
I mean, the fact that I'm not shouldn't make any difference, right?  :-)

Larry Margolis, MARGOLI@YKTVMV (Bitnet), margoli@watson.IBM.com (Internet)
Newsgroups: talk.abortion,talk.politics.misc.alt.politics.bush
From: garvin+@cs.cmu.edu (Susan Garvin)
Subject: Re: Another good reason to vote for Bush
Keywords: From: decay@
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 13:58:02 GMT

In article <1992Aug13.211625.2271@ncsu.edu> dsholtsi@csl36h.csl.ncsu.edu (Doug Holtsinger) writes:
#In article <1992Aug13.202758.18277@csrd.uiuc.edu> 
#saarinen@sp1.csrd.uiuc.edu (Sirpa Saarinen) writes:
#
##dsholtsi@csl36h.csl.ncsu.edu (Doug Holtsinger) writes:
##
###chrisl@stpaul.gov (Chris A Lyman) writes:
##
####farthing@leland.Stanford.EDU (ljf) writes:
>>
#####chrisl@stpaul.gov (Chris A Lyman) writes:
#
###### Actually, I think it's neat that Bush and Quayle would be supportive of
###### their female offspring (or offoffspring in GHWB's case).  I wish that
###### they would remember that _every_ woman is _someone's_ daughter or
###### granddaughter; all equally deserving of their parents' and grandparents
###### support of their right to choose.
#
##### You've never heard of the saying, "Do as I say, not as I do."?
#
#### Definitely!  Their statements regarding their (grand)daughters are just a tad
#### hypocritical; one would hope that they see the error of their ways and open
#### the door for _all_ women rather than close it for their (grand)daughters.
#
### I think it's pretty sexist of you to insinuate that all women think alike,
### and that all of them are pro-choice.  
#
## Sorry, Doug, but Chris was not insinuating anything like you claim here. 
#
#Yes, he did insinuate that "_all_ women" are pro-choice, which is a
#sexist viewpoint.  He presumes that all women think alike on the issue
#of abortion. 

No, Holtsinger, he said that all women deserve support of their right to
choose.  This is not sexist, this is the antithesis of sexism.

All pregnant women make a choice.  Most choose to carry the 
pregnancy to term, and some not to.  This has always been true, 
whether abortion was legal or not.  

## Chris was mainly pointing out the hypocrisy of the Bush & Quayle ticket in
## connection with the abortion issue. 
#
#The only hypocrisy shown here is by Mr. Lyman.  He claims to respect
#women, but then he reveals his blatantly sexist attitude by failing 
#to recognize women as individuals who have a variety of opinions on 
#abortion. 

No, the only thing that has been revealed here is your complete
ignorance (and that's not a new revelation.)  You have yet
to prove that Chris thinks that all women are pro-choice, since
he said no such thing in the included text.  Perhaps you might
consider forging a post from him that says what you want him to
say.

Susan



Newsgroups: talk.abortion
From: phz@cadence.com (Pete Zakel)
Subject: Re: The religious foundation of the pro-choice movement
Organization: Cadence Design Systems
Distribution: na
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 20:03:17 GMT

In article <Aug11.055227.40511@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> sa114984@longs.LANCE.ColoState.EDU (Steven Arnold) writes:
>To pick birth as the dividing
>point baffles me.  What is it other than a moment in time?  Why couldn't
>I just as well say "ten months after conception" and call THAT the
>dividing point?  Or "two months after conception"?  Or any other time?

The reason birth is a good dividing point is that is the point that the
child becomes an entity that is physically independent of its mother and
within the legal realm and under the jurisdiction of society.

Prior to birth it exists wholly within the mother and cannot even be detected
(except by inference because of the size and shape of the women's midsection)
without intrusion into the woman carrying the child.  Before the point of
birth the child is wholly within the jurisdiction of the mother, and subject
ONLY to her whim.

In order to verify conception, or any other stage of a zygote, embryo or
fetus, requires intrusion into a person that has a right of privacy.  I submit
that government's rights and powers absolutely end at the skin of any person.

-Pete Zakel
 (phz@cadence.com or ..!uunet!cadence!phz)

	Never go to bed mad.  Stay up and fight.

					- Phyllis Diller
Newsgroups: talk.abortion
Subject: Re: More questions for Suzanne or other pro-life parent
From: adams@spss.com (Steve Adams)
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 14:49:33 GMT
Organization: SPSS Inc.

forgach@noao.edu (Suzanne Forgach) writes:

>From article by bard@cutter.ssd.loral.com (J H Woodyatt):
>> In article forgach@noao.edu (Suzanne Forgach) writes:
>> #
>> # WHY DO YOU THINK TEENAGE GIRLS --GET-- PREGNANT, GORDON??!!
>> # 
>> # It's not even half as much their sex drives as it is their
>> # desperate, mistaken, attempts to find love in a crazy, misguided world!!
>> # 
>> # And you know what??  If they'd let their pregnancies go to term, they'd
>> # have it.
>> 
>> This little gem was my favorite post of the last seven days.
>> 
>> Finally, world peace is at hand....


>Motherly love is the answer.

Motherly love from a 15-year old who's life has been destroyed?  Who likely 
will be a single mom?  Who likely won't finish high school?  Who likely will 
end up on welfare?

Yeah, right.  That baby is the answer to all of her problems.  Not.

 -Steve
--
 The opinions expressed above are those of the author and not SPSS, Inc.
                        -------------------
     adams@spss.com                           Phone: (312) 329-3522
     Steve Adams                              Fax:   (312) 329-3558
From: dsholtsi@csl36h.csl.ncsu.edu (Doug Holtsinger)
Subject: Re: Revised consistency check
Reply-To: dsholtsi@csl36h.csl.ncsu.edu (Doug Holtsinger)
Organization: North Carolina State University
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 15:32:39 GMT

In article <1992Aug19.040055.33822@watson.ibm.com> 
margoli@watson.IBM.com writes:

>dsh@odin.ece.ncsu.edu (Doug Holtsinger) writes:

>> I've never quoted you or anyone else out of context.

> This is a lie.  You've done so many times.

This statement is not correct.

>In article <1992Aug7.015850.14920@ncsu.edu> dsholtsi@csl36h.csl.ncsu.edu
>Doug Holtsinger) writes:
>>"Take responsibility for your children, or we will force you to do it."
>> -- Bill Clinton, speaking at the Democratic National Convention

That statement was not taken out of context.  Everyone knows what
he's talking about.  

>> Chris Lyman is a sexist for believing that all women think alike on
>> the issue of abortion.

> Doug is a liar.  Chris Lyman has never posted anything that would
> imply this.

Yes, he has, he just doesn't want to admit it. 



Doug Holtsinger

"Take responsibility for your children, or we will force you to do it."
 -- Bill Clinton, speaking at the Democratic National Convention
From: bense@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Ron Bense)
Newsgroups: talk.abortion
Subject: Re: Life at conception...
Date: 20 Aug 92 12:42:55 GMT
Reply-To: bense@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Ronald Bense)
Organization: Carderock Division, NSWC, Bethesda, MD

In talk.abortion, nyikos@math.scarolina.edu (Peter Nyikos) writes:
>In <1992Aug14.235603.29173@midway.uchicago.edu> eeb1@ellis.uchicago.edu (e eliz
>abeth bartley) writes:

>>  However, *in practice* I think the right
>>of a woman to control her own body outranks the right of any purely
>>potential (no matter how strong the potential) person to live.

>Whose body is being controlled in an abortion?

The fetus' body is being controlled by the mother controlling her own.
She is not being controlled.

As for your statement about a 2 month fetus' likelihood of reaching
infant stage, you obviously missed the posts detailing percentages of
fertilized eggs that don't make it through various stages of the pregnancy.

Ron

Potassium Benzoate included as a preserver.
Newsgroups: talk.abortion
From: cookc@aix.rpi.edu (rocker)
Subject: Re: Fetal tissue research (was Re: Another reason to vote for Bush
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 04:28:20 GMT

dsholtsi@csl36h.csl.ncsu.edu (Doug Holtsinger) writes:

>In article <2317@unet.UUCP> stank@perrault.net.com (Stan Knight) writes:

>> Anyone who doubts this post *PLEASE* write to 60 Min. 
>> and get a transcript.

>I know it's wrong.  The fact that you had to include this disclaimer
>indicates to me that you know it's wrong too.

Oh, this IS rich!   :-)

Now Holtsinger implies that providing a pointer to an easily-verified
source PROVES that the poster is lying!

Stop it, Holtsinger, yer killing me!  :-)

>Doug Holtsinger

                       -rocker
Newsgroups: talk.abortion
From: eeb1@ellis.uchicago.edu (e elizabeth bartley)
Subject: Re: repost
Reply-To: eeb1@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 00:05:58 GMT

In article <1992Aug18.154253.7179@wuecl.wustl.edu>
dgp@atlas.wustl.edu (Don Porter) writes:
>><1992Aug8.165958.21263@midway.uchicago.edu> (e elizabeth bartley) writes:

>>> Pro-Choice                 Anti-Roe                  - E. Elizabeth Bartley

><1992Aug18.122206.650@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> (Peter Nyikos) writes:
>> I haven't seen an explicitly Anti-Roe statement above.  "Life or health"
>> is a Roe formula.

>RvW can be viewed in two ways, as policy and as process.  As policy,
>it established a trimester framework of rights and interests in which
>to create abortion policy.  As you have noted, Elizabeth agrees with 
>the policy framework of RvW ( Roughly anyway.  I'll let Elizabeth deal 
>with the details of her stance herself. )

>As process, RvW asserted that the Supreme Court has the authority
>to author such a framework and impose it on all the states of the
>Union.  It is this notion which Elizabeth rejects.  The Court's purpose
>is not to enact its favored policy for the states.

>I'm sure Elizabeth would be happy if the Illinois legislature passed the 
>provisions of RvW into state law.  In fact, I think she has even voiced
>support for the FOCA, which attempts to do something similar on a 
>federal level.

Bingo.  I don't think there's any *Constitutional* right to an
abortion, and given that I don't think the Supreme Court had the
authority to write Roe (though as we've seen, they certainly had the
power to do so).

I had "Pro-Choice, Anti-Roe, Pro-Freedom of Choice Act" in my .sig for
a while.  I took it out because I realized that I hadn't looked
closely enough at the FOCA to really be certain I liked it.  I like
what I think it does, but I haven't made certain it doesn't have
provisions I can't support.

--
Pro-Choice                 Anti-Roe                     - E. Elizabeth Bartley
            Abortions should be safe, legal, early, and rare.
Newsgroups: talk.abortion
From: kauff@neit.cgd.ucar.edu (Brian Kauffman)
Subject: Re: abortifacients
Organization: NCAR, Boulder CO
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 19:14:39 GMT

>> = vlsi06@nest.ece.uc.edu (Gregory S Clausen) writes:
>  = tanj@catnip.berkeley.ca.us (Ren and Stimpy's Love Child) writes:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>Abortion Stops a Beating Heart.

>This is a false statement.  IUD abortions do not stop beating hearts.
>Time to go shopping for a new .sig.

I won't listen.  I won't listen.  Stop confusing us with facts.  We want 
easy answers, not accuracy.  Next I suppose you'll want to point out that 
a fetus might not have a brain, or can't write a diary.  Really, we're 
not interested.

-Brian
Newsgroups: talk.abortion
From: forgach@noao.edu (Suzanne Forgach)
Subject: Re: Out of the Mouths of Babes
Originator: forgach@gemini.tuc.noao.edu
Organization: National Optical Astronomy Observatories, Tucson, AZ, USA
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 20:26:16 GMT

From article <93351@bu.edu>, by kane@buast7.bu.edu (Hot Young Star):
> Suzanne Forgach recently posted about her young daughter referring to
> a plastic fetus model, without prompting, as a "baby". That story reminded
> me of a recent stay with my partner's sister, her husband, and their
> 18-month-old daughter.
> 
> We were all walking on the beach, and my partner was carrying his niece
> while his sister was strolling hand in hand with her spouse. Approaching
> us were two men, probably in their late thirties, walking, holding hands
> and smiling at each other, perhaps enthralled by the notion of adopting
> a baby...who knows.
> 
> As if that weren't unusual enough, the little girl, seeing that her
> parents and the two approaching men were both holding hands, said
> matter-of-factly:
> 
> "Two daddies!"
> 
> Let's hope she retains this attitude for the rest of her life, and does
> not end up having her mind poisoned by heterosexism like so many other
> people.


I hate to break it to you Brian, but for a while my little girl called
ALL men "daddy" and ALL women "mommy".    We got some pretty funny looks
in the grocery store.   There was one time I love to recall, where she
pointed at a thin woman with short hair and said, "Daddy!"   Then she
did a double-take and said "Mommy!".   And when you think about it, the
vast majority of women become somebody's mommy at some time in their lives,
and the vast majority of men become somebody's daddy, so she really wasn't
very far off in sizing up the world.

Children at that age are simply learning that the world is made up of
men and women, and not just big kids (adults) and little kids.   I
strongly suspect your little niece was not embracing homosexualism as much 
as she was simply verbalizing that she could tell that they were both men.


> Brian

Suzanne.
From: decay@cbnewsj.cb.att.com (dean.kaflowitz)
Subject: Re: Another good reason to vote for Bush
Organization: AT&T
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 12:11:37 GMT

In article <nyikos.713807631@milo.math.scarolina.edu> nyikos@math.scarolina.edu (Peter Nyikos) writes:
> In <1992Aug12.175413.9267@cbnewsj.cb.att.com> decay@cbnewsj.cb.att.com (dean.kaflowitz) writes:
> 
> >In article <1992Aug12.163353.6443@ncsu.edu> dsholtsi@csl36h.csl.ncsu.edu (Doug Holtsinger) writes:
> >> In article <l8hms5INN4n9@girtab.usc.edu> rone@girtab.usc.edu (Ron Echeverri) writes:
> >> 
> >> >	HOUSTON (UPI) -- A Republican platform subcommittee overwhelming-
> >> > ly passed a plank calling for a constitutional amendment banning all abor-
> >> > tions, endorsing the policy of President Bush. The subcommittee on indivi-
> >> > dual rights, good homes and safe streets voted 17-3 Monday to approve the
> >> > plank, which is essentially the same as contained in the 1988 and 1984
> >> > platforms.
> >> 
> >> Bush does not want to ban "all" abortions.  He supports exceptions for rape
> >> and incest, and for the life of the mother.   
> 
> >And for members of his own family.
> 
> This confuses forgiveness with support.

Then the confusion was on Bush's part, not mine.

He said "support," not "forgive."  He said, when asked
if ultimately it was the woman's choice, that yes it was,
who's decision could it be.  You got a problem with that,
tell George Bush.

Dean Kaflowitz
Newsgroups: talk.abortion
From: kcochran@nyx.cs.du.edu (Keith "Justified And Ancient" Cochran)
Subject: Re: The Nurturing Network 1-800-TNN-4MOM
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 92 03:54:43 GMT

In article <1992Aug13.203633.16444@cco.caltech.edu> tlynch@cco.caltech.edu (Timothy W. Lynch) writes:
>Toll free numbers, Suzanne?  Have we moved into televangelism now?
>
>forgach@noao.edu (Suzanne Forgach) writes:
>>From article <92215.152601ADMN8647@RyeVm.Ryerson.Ca>, by Linda Birmingham <ADMN8647@RyeVm.Ryerson.Ca>:
>
>>> While the majority of the quotes are Canadian, I am
>>> sure Ms. Forgach if you did a little reading on the
>>> topic you will find that feminist organizations
>>> around the world have been lobbying and funding
>>> such initiatives as you described above.  
>
>>No, Linda.  They've been talking the talk, but they haven't been
>>walking the walk.   Walk into ANY, and I mean ANY abortion alternative
>>organization ANYWHERE, and you will not find even one pro-"choicer" among
>>them.  
>
>You mean organizations that are *exclusively* "abortion alternative", of
>course.  As you always forget, organizations that provide abortions nearly
>always provide a host of other services as well.  Planned Parenthood does
>quite a bit with prenatal care and prenatal counseling, for one; and you'll
>find a lot more pro-choicers there than pro-lifers, I assure you.

Indeed, they are.  I was just in Wichita, Kansas, and at Fantasy/South Fourty,
there is a condom machine in the men's room of a gay dance bar that states
specifically that condoms help lower the chance of pregnancy, STD's, and that
the proceeds from this machine will go to help Planned Parenthood programs
all across Kansas.
--
=kcochran@nyx.cs.du.edu | B(0-4) c- d- e++ f- g++ k(+) m r(-) s++(+) t | TSAKC=
=My thoughts, my posts, my ideas, my responsibility, my beer, my pizza.  OK???=
="I want a man, who will, lay down beside me.  I want a man, who will stand up=
=to me too.  That's what I like about you." -Trisha Yearwood, talking about me=
Xref: sparky talk.abortion:32886 alt.politics.bush:2413 co.politics:1340
From: hauserma@osprey.cahs.colostate.edu (Jake Hauserman)
Newsgroups: talk.abortion,alt.politics.bush,co.politics
Subject: Re: How many Republicans support their abortion plank? I do..
Date: 21 Aug 92 19:25:43 GMT
Organization: Applied Human Sciences, Colorado State University, Fort Collins CO

In article <1992Aug21.141246.29150@advtech.uswest.com> ron@eatdust (Ron Schweikert) writes:
>I'm a Republican and believe in the sanctity of life.  I heartily support
>the Republican platform.
Etc...etc...etc...

You type about being educated but in this artical all I read is a man
that has not really thought things through.  Take a step back and read
what you have typed.  Try to see it through the eyes of someone else.



They never taste who always drink; | Jake Hauserman 
They always talk who never think   | Colorado State University
      - Prior                      | Fort Collins Co.
                                   | hauserma@osprey.cahs.colostate.edu