From: elster@cs.cornell.edu (Anne C. Elster)
Subject: Re: "Demo Gun Control" (Was: democratic platform)
Organization: Cornell Univ. CS Dept, Ithaca NY 14853
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 20:29:58 GMT

In article <1992Jul25.192246.18641@news.Hawaii.Edu> lee@uhunix.uhcc.Hawaii.Edu (Greg Lee) writes:
>In article <veal.130@utkvm1.utk.edu> veal@utkvm1.utk.edu (David L. Veal) writes:
>}...
>}the foundation of our system of government is that it is the government
>}which must justify its actions to the citizenry, not the other way
>}around.   ...
>} 
>}     This appears to be an idea alien to most Europeans. ...
>

Not necessarily -- depends on your point of view ...

>I suspect it is indeed alien.  I had an acquaintance from West
>Germany  ...  he went to the local police station to"check in".
> He was flabbergasted to discover that the police didn't
>consider his whereabouts any concern of theirs.  It's my impression
>that our ideas of personal liberty and privacy are unusual in the world.
>


They may be unusual, but not necessarily considered more "free".

FREEDOM and information
-----------------------
Have you any idea of how much info. is stored about you in this country?
Sure, if you never work, pay only cash, etc, etc, it is possible to
not be "snatched" by the system, but for most people living normal lives
few are more well-tracked than US residents. I'm not sure about Germany,
but the Norwegian Datatilsynet (Computer Regulation Authority) have strickter
rules that the US as far as what info. companies can keep on file anout you.

You may not go to the local police dept to register your move (or Folke-
registeret, as in the case of Norway), but the IRS will surely get upset
if you don't tell them of your new whereabouts; INS even more so for
foreign residents. DMV and the insurance companies want you to register
a new address within 6mths, especially if you move to another state. Why?
All that info. on those licences (home address, phone, dob, etc, as well
as any tickets and the like) are stored in state-wide police records.

E.g. Credit Reports
-------------------
Any felonies go on your national police record (FBI). TRW and other credit-
reporting agencies stores "oodles" of info. on you if you ever get a credit
card or apply for a loan. I got my first credit card in 1986 and have never
applied for a US loan or missed a payment--TRW already has over 2 pages on me!
This info. is accessible to any of their customers either pre-approved by
you via your signature and soc-sec-no, or more globally through inquieries
re. people in your neighborhood (address-realted inquieries). And no, you
cannot make them erase this data unless it's actually wrong. 

E.g. Phone bills
----------------
One of the more interesting ones -- phone bills: In the US they telephone
companies keep track of each long-distance  call and list them on the next
bill sent in the mail. In Norway, this is considered unthinkable (at least
for now). What a potential invasion of privacy!
Telephone calls are charged according to "ticks" with more ticks/min for
longer-distance phone calls.  I believe the tel. comp. needs special warrants
to keep records of where you're calling. You may argue that the tick syst.
only work with a public phone company that people can trust to be honest,
but hey!

CONCLUSION
----------
There are lots of other examples. The problem about what one regards
as personal freedom seems to be strongly related to what "freedoms"
one is used to. Both freedoms and restriction tend to be taken for
granted until otherwise pointed out.

And freedom to choose ones politicians? Few Western governments are
more money-driven than the US. IMHO what makes you system still work is
that the press in fairly indep and hence keeps "checks and ballances".
(This is not neccessarily as true for other countries :-( ).

Perot did a wonderful thing to the political process here. :-)
Got people think about voting etc. again. (You're voting records are
indeed pretty pathetic, to say the least!). Too bad he didn't stay
-- think he would have made and interesting campaign. Now he's instead
more dangerous to the process, in a way. Got the means and political
stature to really buy off the process!  Sigh!

						Anne C. Elster
elster@cs.cornell.edu

Newsgroups: alt.politics.clinton,alt.politics.elections