From: UUCP@ofa123.fidonet.org
Newsgroups: alt.music.filk
Subject: Hot Time in the ol' Filk tonight!
X-Sender: newtout 0.02 Nov  5 1992
Date: 09 Nov 92  22:22:54

From: clif@clif.ypsi.mi.us 
From  ucivax!hela.iti.org!iti.org!clif.uucp!clif

> TO: ALL
> 
> FLAME WARNING
> 
>  ...Stuff Omitted to shorten the posting.  I'm trying to not
>     quote out of context, however...
>
> MB: Have you actually talked to a "name" filker who's gone off to a
> MB: smaller sing, and had them say to you something like "Oh, I don't
> MB: want to sit around and listen to all those terrible amateurs."?
> MB: (I'll concede that you might be able to answer that one
> MB: affirmatively, as I have, on rare occasion, encountered similar
> MB: attitudes.)
> 
> This attitude became so prevalent at the events I attended in the late
> 70's and early 80's that I dropped out of filking almost entirely -- and
> have not tried to get back into it (my _only_ contact with filking at
> this point is this newsgroup). Please note that the "name" performers
> are usually very nice, but the "performance" filkers (of which there are
> more than "names") have been almost uniformly snobbish. In my
> experience. Seems that an amateur, or simply someone who does not care
> to perform (remember them? They're called 'listeners', sometimes
> 'customers') is given extremely short shrift, if they are noticed at
> all.
> 
  I don't know where you were trying filk at that time, but recall that
the fannish half life used to be 3 years.  I was also breaking into filking
at that time, I wrote my first filk in the summer of '75, and started
hitting the midwestern filks in '77.  

  At that time, in the Ohio, Michigan, Pennsylvania, Upstate NY area,
it was fairly easy to break into a sing.  As a newbie, I tended to wait
until about 3:00 A.M. when most folks were tired out, and then I'd trot
out my newest song, and see if anyone barfed.  If they didn't, I'd trot
it out again a con or two later.

  At my first Windycon ('78, I think it was), I recall being snubbed a
bit when I hit the filk, but fortunately, my first song was strong
enough that people decided to listen. 

  I understand that in the 70's/80's a number of the Minneapolis 
Folkers seriously scorned the filk crowd.  The filkers were regarded as
the type of people who would write '99 Dr Who's on TV', sing it
for 99 verses and think it clever.

  I recall the first of the two LunaCons I attended when someone was not
only scornful of my ability, but also of my guitar, my technique, and
perhaps my ancestry.  But, then he was a native NY city person, and
should be excused for being an asshole.  (I apologise to the nice folks
in NYC, both of them.)

  Anyhow, my point here is that in different places and at different
times the atmosphere in the filk has been different.  Your blanket
condemnation of 'filkers' is as accurate as my blanket condemnation of
people in NY City.

> MB: Have you ever tried to enter a smaller sing *that was being held in
> MB: a function room or other public area* and been turned away because
> MB: you weren't a "name"?
> 
> Every single time. It's been my experience that, if you are not known as
> a performer (not necessarily a "name"), you may as well go look at the
> art show; the "filkers" are not interested in listening to you.
> 

  In 15 years and about 150 conventions, I've seen a small filk in a
public area be private only once.  

  This was at Confederation, where there were several filk rooms
available.  A well liked & respected pro had come to Confederation even
though he/she was recovering from a serious health problem, and really
wanted to be in a filk, but couldn't take the crowds yet.  A couple of
unknown & unnamed fen took it upon themselves to man the door, and keep
that filk small and quiet, and limited to people that the pro was likely
to know slightly and desire to spend time with. 

  I doubt that pro knew that this was happening, I know I didn't realise
it at the time.

  A number of the larger con's these days have been having multiple 
filk rooms, sometimes specifically for a group of filkers/folkers.
A room for folks who prefer sing-a-longs, and another for folks who
prefer standard folk songs, and yet a third for the performance/bardic
style filkers, etc.

> MB: Have you *ever* seen a "name" filker publicly humiliate a newcomer
> MB: for singing or playing badly?  I sure haven't.  In short, do you
> MB: have any evidence for calling people snobs other than the bare fact
> MB: that they choose not to go to the biggest sing?
> 
> See above. The one time I stood up to present a 'filk' (a minor rewrite
> of an old and little known military song), I was literally booed out of
> the room. I found out later that it was because the 'quality' of my
> presentation was not up to the snobs' "standards". I have never sung in
> public since.
>

  I'm very sorry this happened to you.  In 15 years as well over 200 filks
I've never seen such boorish behavior. 
  
  I watched a fellow at a Worldcon One Shot concert stumble badly over
his lines, leave the stage in tears and then get dragged back up and
encouraged to finish a badly sung song, and then get applauded.  (Not
because his performance deserved praise, but because *He* deserved
praise.  Everyone could see how hard it was for him to get up there
and sing, but he did it.)

I've seen people dragged off into a corner and given instruction and
hints on how to play better. 

I've seen occaissional quiet warnings passed to someone who was getting
ready to commit a social gaff.

I've seen people get up and quietly leave when a particularly tune/tone
and rhythm impaired individual started to sing.  But this was after
they'd been assaulting our ears for a couple years with no sign of 
improvement.

> 
> ... More omitted stuff...
>
> The obvious corollary is that the audience doesn't owe the performer
> anything, either.
> 

  True, you have two feet, and two votes, just like the rest of us.


   ... From here the flame becomes more vitriolic, less informed, 
  and more a case of twisting statements into obviously
  unintended meanings.  I prefer to not comment on the statements 
  individually.  

    I know Mark outside of our fannish connections, and believe that his
  statements mean what he said, not what there were twisted into.