HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mece25r@jane.uh.edu (Palit, Suman)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
Subject: Re: A fencing life (was Re: Drop Outs)
Date: 16 Dec 1992 17:39 CST
Organization: University of Houston
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: jane.uh.edu
Keywords: fencers
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    

In article <1992Dec14.173727.395@samba.oit.unc.edu>, amunn@gibbs.oit.unc.edu (Alan Munn) writes...
>In article <1992Dec14.005312.21145@rtsg.mot.com> svoboda@rtsg.mot.com (David Svoboda) writes:
>>
>>   . Playing badminton, and *lunging* at the shuttlecock?
>>
	{ funny stuff deleted }

 	
	. Noticing someone wave at you from the far end of the corridoor, and
	returning it with a bent-arm coupe'. 

	. Finding out how much easier it's become to walk sideways through
	a crowded bar.

	

	Suman Palit
	mece25r@jetson.uh.edu
From: GE.DWS@forsythe.stanford.edu (Drew W. Saunders)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
Subject: Re: electric sabre scoring?
Date: 16 Dec 1992 16:32:05 -0800
Organization: Stanford University
Distribution: usa
NNTP-Posting-Host: morrow.stanford.edu

I have a question for those of you now fencing electric sabre,
especially if you fenced dry sabre for a while before switching.
Are stop-cuts becoming more common?  Also, are attacks to the arm
becoming more common as well?  I tended to avoid targetting my
opponent's arm back when I fenced dry sabre, partly due to the fact
that such attacks would often be unnoticed by the judges/director,
while a clean thwack to the body or helmet was a better bet.

Drew
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
From: dvarney@cbnewse.cb.att.com (doug.w.varney)
Subject: Re: Fencing equipment (was: Re: Fencing is here? Incredible!!)
Organization: AT&T
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 18:42:02 GMT


It is interesting how fast the FIE equipment (Jackets and
Knickers) have caught on.  At the NAC in Louisville practically
everyone in the Mens Epee event had FIE equipment (as compared 
to only those fencing in Europe a couple years ago).

Does anyone have info on the effective lifetime of FIE Jackets?


Doug Varney
dvarney@ihlpm.att.com
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
From: nexus@ylum.cgd.ucar.edu (Jeff Berry)
Subject: Re: Left vs Right Handness
Organization: Climate and Global Dynamics Division/NCAR, Boulder, CO
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 19:40:33 GMT

In article <1992Dec14.184927.4479@progress.com> schuldy@progress.COM (Mark Schuldenfrei) writes:
>Randy Bruno quoted me, then wrote:
>  >  III.A.3 [ . . . ] Orthopedic and pistol grips are not allowed for
>  >  reasons of safety and non-period style.
>  The non-period part is clear, but I'm curious to know how in the case of
>  this rule pistol grips were determined to be unsafe. (I can imagine a
>  few possibilities, but I was wondering what the particular background is
>  to this specific rule.)
>I wrote him a lovely long piece of conjecture, but the truth is, I don't
>know.  I have bucked this up the line to a few SCA fencers on email, who
>	schuldy (Tibor in the SCA)
Well, the Urban Myth (or SCA Myth) that I heard was that Tivar Moondragon
had a mask collapsed by a pistol-gripped blade, and that was the cause of the
"safety" clause in the prohibition.

For non-SCA folk, Master Tivar is the SCA-wide Marshallate Deputy in Charge
of Period Fencing.


badger                                      Don Alexandre Lerot d'Avigne
Jeff Berry                                  Seneschal of Caer Galen, Outlands
               nexus@ncar.ucar.edu
NCAR doesn't tell me what to think, and I return the favor.
"You're a notch and I'm a legend"-------Alice Cooper
"I'm a revolution romancer"----Hawkwind
From: ctrbdo@iapa.uucp%mailhost.ecn.uoknor.edu (bryan d oakley)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
Subject: ascii fencing art
Date: 16 Dec 92 17:18:03 GMT
Organization: FAA / Mike Monroney Aeronautical Center

I have another fencing and computer literate friend who was trying to
put an ascii fencer in his .signature.  Anyone have what they feel is a
reasonable representation of a fencer, sword, USFA logo or the like
that you would care to share with the world?

-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Instrument Approach Procedures Automation              DOT/FAA/AMI-230
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Bryan D. Oakley                    ctrbdo%iapa@mailhost.ecn.uoknor.edu
From: jesup@cbmvax.commodore.com (Randell Jesup)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
Subject: Re: French Grips
Date: 10 Dec 92 01:22:12 GMT
Reply-To: jesup@cbmvax.commodore.com (Randell Jesup)
Organization: Commodore, West Chester, PA

fafhrd@jessica.stanford.edu (The Old Boy) writes:
>>The French hilt:  a strange, skinny, slightly corkscrewed, slightly
>>                  S-shaped thing sized for midgets' hands, which I
>>                  have never yet found a comfortable hold on;

	French grips _are_ uncomfortable until you learn how to hold onto
it without using any force in your fingers.  This is also what gives you the
ability to have good point control, which is why so many instructors (and
people here) say that all beginners should start with French.  Once you learn
to hold it lightly, they are fairly comfortable.

>there are
>also some strangely "minimalist" pistol grips I've seen that I won't even
>attempt to draw, but had highly exaggerated "thumb bits" (great terminology,
>I know) that could actually keep your hand caught in the grip if you weren't
>careful.  These also had no molding for the fingers to lie in whatsoever.
>Anybody know what these are?

	Sounds like spanish (see your TCA or American Fencers or other
catalogs).

>  I gather they were made illegal some time ago,
>due to the tendency to increase the severity of accidents on the strip.  (If
>you can't let go of your weapon, nasty things are bound to happen.)

	Oh, you can let go of them.  They did outlaw all orthopedic grips
that use a french-style pommel - the "offset Spanish" is apparently legal,
since like the other orthos it has the offset wrist piece and internal nut.

-- 
To be or not to be = 0xff
-
Randell Jesup, Jack-of-quite-a-few-trades, Commodore Engineering.
{uunet|rutgers}!cbmvax!jesup, jesup@cbmvax.cbm.commodore.com  BIX: rjesup  
Disclaimer: Nothing I say is anything other than my personal opinion.
From: burdickd@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Dakin Burdick)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
Subject: Re: Striking force of thrusts/cuts
Date: 15 Dec 92 14:05:36 GMT
Organization: Indiana University

I base most of my opinions in this matter on an old Scientific
American article on the physics of breaking with karate techniques.
Why?  Because they measured the ft-lbs of force behind two techniques,
a thrust punch and a hammerfist (a fist swung way far from the body
so it pounds into the person).  Their study showed that the 
thrust punch generated about a third of the force that the swinging
fist did.  Apply this over to fencing, and you should see that the
cut is more forceful than the thrust, especially since the blade is
even further out on that lever arm, and a whipping action can added
with the wrist, adding more power (and NO this is not an excuse for
foil flicking!).  However, the problem is more complicated than this.
Here are my thoughts:

cuts are more powerful than thrusts
cuts are easier to avoid than thrusts
thrusts are easier to parry than cuts (assuming the opponent is
larger than you)
thrusts do more damage than cuts (assuming the target is the 
body; because thrusts can pierce internal organs much easier)

What do you think?

Dakin
burdickd@silver.ucs.indiana.edu
From: morgan@sitka.triumf.ca (Morgan Burke)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
Subject: Re: French Grips
Date: 11 Dec 1992 21:23:26 GMT
Organization: TRIUMF, Vancouver BC
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: sitka.triumf.ca

In article <1g97reINN575@smurf.sti.com>, alaric@sti.com (Alaric Tekiahyn) writes:
[re:  picture of pistol grip]
|> Good grief!  Are you *serious*?
|> And I thought I'd seen *everything*.
|> 
|> Pardon me if I give offence to anyone by this statement, but something
|> like this could IHMO arise only in a fencing sport that has become less
|> a sport of fencing, than a sport of winning fencing tournaments.  (If
|> you see the distinction.)

Hmm, not sure that I do.  You evidently have never used a pistol grip, 
and so are evaluating it purely from a philosophical and traditional 
(as opposed to practical) standpoint.  I submit that those are the
wrong ways to judge the usefulness of a sword.

You acknowledge that a pistol grip would give a fencer an advantage in 
winning fencing tournaments?  Do you not think this advantage would 
translate to a real-world duel?  Would duellists of 200 years ago have 
used pistol grips if they had the technology?  If not, why not?  If so, 
then what's the problem?  Surely you know that technology progresses and 
sword technology is no exception.  If you define as "real" only those 
swords that existed prior to c.1875, then you are an enthusiast of military
nostalgia, not swords.

I am reminded of the English banning the rapier in favour of their
own longswords.  They probably used similar reasoning.

|> Just to make things clear, since I have seen no other mention of the
|> type, what I know as an Italian hilt (under the same ASCII-art
|> limitations) looks something like this:
[ASCII picture deleted]
|> So tell me the worst:  Are hilts of this type now considered to be
|> hopelessly obsolete for fencing purposes?  Or are they illegal for
|> sport fencing?  Or are they just known by some other name?

They are still used, but are quite rare in my experience.  I think
that they are legal provided the crossbar doesn't extend beyond the 
edges of the bell.

By the way, I'm sure that a few hundred years ago there were some 
fencers who felt that finger rings and bell guards were an abomination 
in the face of the current tradition, and had no place among real swords.  
Of course, they were probably all killed off in short order  :-)

........................................ Morgan Burke
                                         morgan@sitka.triumf.ca
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 03:55:42 -0500 
From: Randy M Bruno <rb6b+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Cleaning the uncleanable

Excerpts from netnews.rec.sport.fencing: 14-Dec-92 Re: Cleaning the
uncleanable: by Stuart M Castergine@magn 
>I don't know about anybody else, but as long as I am wearing the
>glvoe, it will *never* be completely dry. I sweat too much. I always
>bring two or three gloves to a competition, because after two rough
>pools, a glove is soaked through and starts to get slippery (I can
>judge how well I'm doing by how many gloves I go through in a
>tournament!)
> 
>My hands sweat so much that I simply don't make much effort to save my
>gloves. I never buy the top-priced gloves, because no matter how good
>they are I'm guaranteed to destroy them.

    The best solution, as you say, seems to be to throw them away and
get a new one after you wear one out. (I admit though it's not
"environmentally correct.") I have never experienced a problem with
slipperiness though. I guess I just don't try hard enough. :)

>Because of my profuse and corrosive perspiration, I seem to have a lot
>more trouble with blade corrosion than some other people. Oh, how I
>envied my teammate, Csaga Hovanyi, back at Ohio State. Her blades were
>always so shiny and bright! I swear her sweat was less corrosive than
>mine.
>
>Anybody have any suggestions for keeping blades from rusting? I wipe
>mine down, but I am loath to oil them, because I am afraid of what the
>oil will do to the glue on the wire -- I have enough problems with
>wires lifting out as it is. I am also worried that oil will get all
>over my nice fencing whites or will get in and gum up my tip.

    I'm assuming your perspiration causes your blades to rust because
your damp clothing is rubbing against them in your fencing bag. There is
an easy way to keep your weapons shiny and your jacket free of rust
stains: Cut a three-foot long piece of plastic tubing (only, say, an
inch in diameter) and attach a rubber band or string to one end. Slip
these tubes over your weapons when you're done. Lots of fencers do this.
You don't need extra compartments in your bags and everything still
stays clean.
    And just for the record... Women do have a different pH level in
their perspiration than men. :)
From: timsmith@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Timothy Smith)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
Subject: Re: fencing or fighting?
Date: 15 Dec 92 23:24:08 GMT
Organization: The David Taylor Model Basin

ctrbdo@iapa.uucp%mailhost.ecn.uoknor.edu (bryan d oakley) writes:
>Funny, I thought this was rec.sport.fencing, not rec.sport.fighting.
>After all, does anyone *really* consider SCA fighting fencing?
(snip)
>Less I be misunderstood, I don't want to banish either group.  I'm
>just curious if everyone out there likes the mix.

It seems to me that we have several inherently overlapping groups here:

1.  Classical (i.e., foil/epee/sabre) fencers
2.  SCA (or other competitive rapier-in-the-round) fencers
3.  SCA heavy fighters (rattan fighters, "sword jocks")
4.  Theatrical fencers/fight directors
5.  Students of historical fencing manuals, and
6.  Martial artists.

I couldn't think of any more on the spur of the moment, but there are
doubtless others.

I like the mix.  If I see any problem at all, it's the occasional un-
called-for jibe at another person's chosen sport/fighting style (depending
on your preference).  Now, good-natured insults are all in good fun
amongst friends, and anyone who claims that SCA sword jocks all stand
flatfooted and flounder around without any balance should stop basing
their opinions on the way _I_ fight with sword and sheild....

But, seriously, a lot of us are playing somewhat different games.  I
think that there's room for all of us in here, and that the range of
viewpoints is quite refreshing.

--Tim Smith                  aka Timofei Ivanovitch
(out-of-practice foilist)    (out-of-shape rapier scholar & spearman)
-- 
--- Tim Smith ---  timsmith@oasys.dt.navy.mil ---- (301)227-1611 ---
----- Code 1522, David Taylor Model Basin, Bethesda, MD  20084 -----
----- The Secretary will disavow all knowledge of my opinions. -----
From: morgan@sitka.triumf.ca (Morgan Burke)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
Subject: Re: apologies (was thrust vs. cut)
Date: 15 Dec 92 02:35:52 GMT
Organization: TRIUMF, Vancouver BC
NNTP-Posting-Host: sitka.triumf.ca

In article <Bz7wzs.67t@ccu.umanitoba.ca>, chrstie@ccu.umanitoba.ca (William John M. Christie) writes:
|> I disagree and hope this logic isn't flawed.  Suppose that the velocity
|> that you can push at your hands (Vlin) is the same as the velocity you can
|> swing (Vradial*Larm) your arms at the hands.  Let's use the same sword (ie.
|> same mass) for both cases of cutting and stabbing.  Therefore the velocity at
|> the tip of the sword during a thrust is the same as your push:
|> 	Vtip|lin = Vlin
|> The tip velocity for slashing is given by: 
|> 	Vtip|rad = Vrad * (Larm + Lsword)
|> So with proper substitution:
|> 	Vtip|rad = Vlin + Vrad*Lsword
|> Which means that Vtip|rad > Vtip|lin.  Also translating into more power,
|> energy and momentum.

Power depends on the muscular force you are exerting, which is hard to 
quantify in this case.  Energy and momentum both have a dependence on
mass.  As has been pointed out before, a well-executed thrust has the
mass of the entire fencer behind it, whereas the cut has only the mass 
of the blade tip behind it.  This gives roughly a 50-1 to 100-1 advantage 
to the thrust in mass.  To overcome the momentum disadvantage, the cut 
needs a similar advantage in speed, which is impossible.  Even in terms of
energy, it still needs close to a 10-1 speed advantage.

The primary advantage of the cut is that it is more difficult to defend
against.  Despite the apparent disadvantage in terms of momentum/energy,
the *net* return on the cut is probably much higher than the thrust.

........................................ Morgan Burke
                                         morgan@sitka.triumf.ca
From: alaric@sti.com (Alaric Tekiahyn)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
Subject: Re: Duelling vs. "Swordfighting" (was: french grips)
Date: 17 Dec 1992 21:43:24 GMT
Organization: Software Transformation, Inc.
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: smurf.sti.com

In article <BzF6ux.4IH@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>, burdickd@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Dakin Burdick) writes:
] In article <1golnoINNshv@iskut.ucs.ubc.ca> morgan@sitka.triumf.ca
] (Morgan Burke) writes:
] >If memory serves, however, the English banned the
] >rapier (in favour of their own longswords) because it was too deadly.
] >This implies that the thrusting weapons are the more fatal, despite 
] >being less gory.
] 
] I thought the English banned the rapier because (1) it was foreign,
] and (2) because it was a bully's weapon (too long to be used for
] defense and hence purely an offensive weapon; in other words, it
] encouraged you to strike the first blow).

In fact, the closest I recall to this was rapiers being banned in favor
of what came to be known as the *smallsword*, which was basically just
a legal fiction limiting the length of a rapier.  The Elizabethan
smallsword finds its closest parallel in the epee, except that many
of them had crossguards rather than bell-guards.  They were often very
elaborately decorated, too.

The rationale behind this particular ban was that many of those who
could afford them were beginning to carry rapiers as much as five feet
long.  Naturally, with a two-foot advantage over less wealthy opponents,
they would often enter into duels for the slightest of excuses, in the
sure knowledge that they could probably skewer their opponent before
said opponent was even within range for his own weapon.

So it was kind of an arms-limitation law, really, to try to cut down
on gratuitous murder in the guise of duels of honor.
Notice there was no attempt made at the time to outlaw duelling; the
law only tried to make sure that the duels that were fought were
approximately fair.

-- 
      "Eternal vigilance is the price of freedom."  --  Thomas Jefferson
    ......................................................................
    Phil Stracchino : phils@sti.com : alaric@sti.com : The Renaissance Man
      PGP 2.0 - Freeware public-key data encryption.  Get it and use it!
           Finger alaric@sti.com for PGP 2.0 info and my public key
From: alaric@sti.com (Alaric Tekiahyn)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
Subject: Re: French Grips
Date: 16 Dec 92 02:41:09 GMT
Organization: Software Transformation, Inc.
NNTP-Posting-Host: smurf.sti.com

In article <8689.2266@stratus.SWDC.Stratus.COM>, jane@soave.swdc.stratus.com (Jane Beckman) writes:
] >or my 1725-pattern Scots basket-hilted broadsword...  
] WHOSE Scots broadsword?  (Sorry, I'm the wife mentioned below.
] I can see we're going to have a dispute over weapons
] custody...) ;-)


OK: "OUR 1725 Scots basket-hilted broadsword."  Better?		:-)

I just figured if I wrote that the first time around, no-one would be
able to figure out whether I was schizophrenic or using the royal We.


-- 
      "Eternal vigilance is the price of freedom."  --  Thomas Jefferson
    ......................................................................
    Phil Stracchino : phils@sti.com : alaric@sti.com : The Renaissance Man
      PGP 2.0 - Freeware public-key data encryption.  Get it and use it!
           Finger alaric@sti.com for PGP 2.0 info and my public key
From: morgan@sitka.triumf.ca (Morgan Burke)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
Subject: Single Stick
Date: 19 Dec 1992 01:17:34 GMT
Organization: TRIUMF, Vancouver BC
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: sitka.triumf.ca

Reading up on fencing in past Olympic games, I noticed that one of
the early modern games (1904?) included a fencing discipline called
"single-stick", in addition to foil, epee, and sabre.  Does anybody
know more about this?

I presume it is some form of one-handed stick fighting.  Other than
staff-fighting, I'm not aware of any western stick-fighting martial
arts.  I've heard of a few eastern ones, but it doesn't seem likely 
that they would have been a part of the 1904 Olympics.

............................................ Morgan Burke
                                             morgan@sitka.triumf.ca
From: dstewart@kean.ucs.mun.ca
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
Subject: Re: crosstraining and weight training
Date: 18 Dec 92 14:46:51 GMT
Organization: Memorial University. St.John's Nfld, Canada

In article <1992Dec17.202801.25963@rock.concert.net>, penfold@rock.concert.net (Patricia A White -- Oxford University Press -- MIS) writes:
> I've never tried it but maybe in-line-skating, aka Rollerblading, (to
> and from the salle! ;-) might be a decent workout.  I imagine it would
> strengthen the ankles if nothing else.  Is there anybody who's a bit
> more knowledgeable about the subject?
> 
> -Patricia
>  penfold@rock.concert.net
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> "Those who know that they are profound strive for clarity.  Those who would
> like to seem profound to the crowd strive for obscurity."  --Nietzsche
> 
Just to continue this--my teacher, who was taught by Crosnier, used to say
 that the best other sport for a fencer was ping-pong!

Dan Stewart.
From: mgelman@cyclades.ma30.bull.com (Michael A. Gelman)
Subject: Re: concession, flames, discussion (re: fencing or fighting?)
Reply-To: mgelman@cyclades.ma30.bull.com (Michael A. Gelman)
Organization: Bull HN Info Sys, Billerica MA
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 21:29:12 GMT

In article <BzD3n3.1Cx@iapa.uucp%mailhost.ecn.uoknor.edu>, ctrbdo@iapa.uucp%mailhost.ecn.uoknor.edu (bryan d oakley) writes:
|> Ok, here goes.  Here's something that I've found to have various
|> interpretations depending on who you ask, though the rules are *fairly*
|> clear on this issue.  I was directing in this situation and got in an
|> argument with a very upset fencer and two fairly well respected
|> members of the bout committee over this one (one fencer came away
|> happy though :-).
|> 
|> In a semi-final bout, score tied at 4-4.  Fencer A finds him/her self
|> at the rear limit of the strip.  Fencer B advances, causing Fencer A
|> to retreat with haste, landing his back foot well behind the rear
|> limit, front foot in the air.  This fencer (A) then thrusts and lands,
|> with Fencer B counter thrusting and also landing, no blade contact
|> between them.  A halt is called while Fencer A's front foot is in the
|> air, and then Fencer A's front foot comes down on the rear limit line
|> after the halt.  What's the call?
|> 
|>   a) Fencer A loses because he/she was off the strip and the attack is
|>      invalid, or
|> 
|>   b) Fencer A wins because the attack was valid since both feet
|>      were not off the strip.
|> 
|>   c) some other interpretation...
|> 


As I recall (it's been quite a while since I last directed) the
correct answer is (b), since Fencer A never stepped off the back of
the strip with his front foot.

I seem to recall that the "falling off the strip" rules changed a
while back - In high school I remember learning a somewhat arbitrary
set of rules for meter warnings.  These, I believe, were tossed for
simplicity's sake, correct?

--Mike Gelman
-- 
Michael Gelman -- M.Gelman@ma30.bull.com 
Bull HN Info Systems -- Advanced Engineering Program 
(Any similarity between my opinions and those of Bull, living or dead, are
entirely coincidental.) 
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing