HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: sheppamj@sun.soe.clarkson.edu (Matthew Sheppard)
Subject: Anthony Perkins
Note: Copyright 1992, Dan R. Greening. Non-commercial reproduction allowed.
Keywords: aids
Archive-Number: 6174
Organization: Clarkson University
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1992 18:01:11 GMT

Anthony Perkins died from complications arising from the AIDS virus
yesterday.  It is interesting that the press didn't get hold of the fact
that he was HIV+.  Perhaps a good thing.

--
| Matthew Sheppard  CLARKSON UNIVERSITY  sheppamj@sun.soe.clarkson.edu |
| I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy.ANoN |
| I don't want a pickle. DoD#477 TEP#477 RIDE FREE (8^]..etcetera..    |
Newsgroups: sci.med.aids
From: andromed@cs.dal.ca
Subject: Question on HIV virus
Note: Copyright 1992, Dan R. Greening. Non-commercial reproduction allowed.
Archive-Number: 6148
Organization: Math, Stats & CS, Dalhousie University, Halifax, NS, Canada
Date: 	Thu, 10 Sep 1992 11:06:12 -0300

 How long does it take the HIV virus to show in a person ? a week ? what are
classic symptoms ? how long do they take to show in a human ?

 thanks any advice appreciated..

						Mike
Newsgroups: sci.med.aids
From: dfs5716@usl.edu (Seidel Daniel F)
Subject: Casual HIV Transmision
Note: Copyright 1992, Dan R. Greening. Non-commercial reproduction allowed.
Reply-To: <uunet!usl.edu!dfs5716@samsung.com>
Archive-Number: 6188
Organization: University of Southwestern Louisiana
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 14:35:13 GMT

  A friend of mine is sharing an apartment with two HIV positive individuals
and it is very important to me that I find out what risks she is taking...
   What are the risks involved with non-sexual non-IV co-habitation.  Please
no flames on my ignorance...  I just need to know where I can find this    
information.  Thank you for any and all replies!

Newsgroups: sci.med.aids
From: weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener)
Subject: Re: More speculation
Note: Copyright 1992, Dan R. Greening. Non-commercial reproduction allowed.
Reply-To: weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener)
Archive-Number: 6189
Organization: The Wistar Institute of Anatomy and Biology
Date: 15 Sep 92 19:11:32 GMT

In article <1992Sep9.104858.23383@cs.ucla.edu>, lfoard@Turing (Lawrence C. Foard) writes:
>For example could a poison be designed that would be non toxic until it
>came in contact with some stage of the virus production process, at which
>point it would turn into something that would eventually destroy the cell?

Presumably this is what the immune system is supposed to be doing.  One of
the way HIV evades this is to mutate.

>Would killing most HIV producing cells in the body be enough to effectively
>treat it?

That's unknown.  Some network models say no.  In brief, a certain HIV
protein mimics CD4, found on various T cells.  Antibodies raised against
HIV also attack the CD4 bearing T cells.  At this stage, eliminating HIV
will not cure the disease, as the immune system is still autodestructing.
-- 
-Matthew P Wiener (weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu)
Newsgroups: sci.med.aids
From: scb1@midway.uchicago.edu (Sam Blackman)
Subject: Re: Dealing with "HIV doesn't cause AIDS" people.
Note: Copyright 1992, Dan R. Greening. Non-commercial reproduction allowed.
Reply-To: scb1@midway.uchicago.edu
Archive-Number: 6100
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 15:43:29 GMT

In article <1992Sep8.151222.6771@cs.ucla.edu> doug@cc.ysu.edu (Doug Sewell) writes:
>I have several well-meaning acquaintances that are convinced that HIV
>doesn't cause AIDS.  And they're persistent as <insert favorite evan-
>gelistic cult here> about it, and somehow think that unless I buy into
>what they're offering, they've failed in life.
>
>What better can I do to deal with these people ?

You can do what I do with people who's ignorance or inability to accept
people who are not exactly like themselves offends (this includes people
who believe they've failed in life if they can't convert you - not offense
to fundamentalist Christians, but I'm sick of being told that I'm going
to burn in hell for not being one of you) ... IGNORE THEM.  Certain people,
in my experience, are not capable of seeing the world in technicolor.  Either
it's their way or no way.  They have no interest in allowing for the possiblity
that they might be incorrect.  They aren't always willing to do the research
into alternative theories.  A check on the credibility of the "HIV does not
cause AIDS" people shows that they have a long way to go compared to the
thousands of scientists who have worked and research on HIV for the past
decarde.  When they get there, perhaps I will be willing to re-examine their
theory, but until then, I prefer to ignore their useless spoutings in the
hopes that they'll go away.

-- Sam

-- 
Samuel C. Blackman        ! InterNet : scb1@midway.uchicago.edu
University of Chicago     ! Disclaimer : Who cares what I say, I'm a student!
Lost on the south side    ! Quote : Help! I've fallen and I can't get up!
Chicago, IL  60637        ! Phone : 312/752-1082 (h)   312/702-6582 (w)
Newsgroups: sci.med.aids
From: dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer)
Subject: Re: Dealing with "HIV doesn't cause AIDS" people.
Note: Copyright 1992, Dan R. Greening. Non-commercial reproduction allowed.
Archive-Number: 6154
Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting, Cambridge MA
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 16:49:22 GMT

In article <1992Sep10.160141.14159@cs.ucla.edu> tedr@athena.cs.uga.edu (Ted Kalivoda) writes:
>Duseberg is also one of the worlds leading retrovirists.  He may be wrong,
>but it's difficult to consider him a crackpot.

There are lots of "world's leading" types who are flakes in other areas.
Shockley, who invented the transistor, was a racist.  Linus Pauling holds
emphatically weird opinions about the values of vitamin C.  The whole point
is that you shouldn't be swayed by personalities.  Duesberg appears to be a
grandstander, an attribute which is often necessary but not sufficient to be
recognized as an important contributor.

>>If Duseberg's model is correct, (actually he doesn't have one),  
>>why doesn't anyone in the scientific community take it seriously??
>
>If a better model....well, probably the reason why Duseberg's theory is not
>appreciated is that it is only a negation--he says this is not the case in
>my professional opinion.  No detailed theory about the cause of AIDS is
>given by  Duseberg.  Sometimes  people have to have answers.  Can you
>imagine what the media would do if many scientists agreed that they did not
>know what Caused AIDS?

Listen, AIDS follows all the criteria for being an infectious disease
and HIV being the cause.  You've got hemophiliacs, transfusion patients,
newborns and health care workers infected via a needle stick who show the
same signs of HIV infection and who follow the same clinical course as
those who contracted it sexually or via IV drug use.  All of these people
have no additional risk factors.  People who aren't exposed to HIV don't
get AIDS.  (The Amsterdam report on an AIDS-like illness w/o HIV infection
is mostly a red herring.  We're talking another immune deficiency there,
certainly not identical in presentation to AIDS.)

>>5. The HIV-AIDS connection may indeed be wrong, but its flaws are no  
>>greater than those in many other medical theories. It's the best bet we  
>>have right now.
>Exactly my point.  It's the only theory we have that makes any sense, but
>when you look at it more closely, according to Duseberg, it doesn't add up. 

Yeah, but no one else of any repute agrees with him.  Most people think it
DOES add up.  His arguments seem to rely on selective readings from the
literature.

-- 
Steve Dyer
dyer@ursa-major.spdcc.com aka {ima,harvard,rayssd,linus,m2c}!spdcc!dyer
Newsgroups: sci.med.aids
From: lfoard@Turing.ORG (Lawrence C. Foard)
Subject: HIV throught skin, how hazardous?
Note: Copyright 1992, Dan R. Greening. Non-commercial reproduction allowed.
Archive-Number: 6158
Organization: The Turing Project, Charlottesville Virginia.
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 06:05:55 GMT

I've seen a few reports of HIV being contracted after someone came in
contact with HIV infected blood on non broken skin. Is there any estimates
available of the risk for this? Is this a freak accident where its only
happened a few times ,or is it a significant risk? How much less or more
dangerous would contact with other bodily fluids (semen, etc.) be? 

-- 
------          Join the Pythagorean Reform Church!               .
\    /        Repent of your evil irrational numbers             . .
 \  /   and bean eating ways. Accept 10 into your heart!        . . .
  \/   Call the Pythagorean Reform Church BBS at 508-793-9568  . . . .
    
Newsgroups: sci.med.aids
From: lfoard@Turing.ORG (Lawrence C. Foard)
Subject: More speculation
Note: Copyright 1992, Dan R. Greening. Non-commercial reproduction allowed.
Archive-Number: 6136
Organization: The Turing Project, Charlottesville Virginia.
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 06:39:15 GMT

I've seen a number of articles stating that HIV infected cells sit around
producing HIV basically indefinitly. If this is the case and these cells
can be replaced, why not go after the cells rather than the virus?
Does HIV infection cause a change in the consumption of chemicals or
reactions use that could be used to selectively kill HIV infected cells?
For example could a poison be designed that would be non toxic until it
came in contact with some stage of the virus production process, at which
point it would turn into something that would eventually destroy the cell?

Would killing most HIV producing cells in the body be enough to effectively
treat it?

-- 
------          Join the Pythagorean Reform Church!               .
\    /        Repent of your evil irrational numbers             . .
 \  /   and bean eating ways. Accept 10 into your heart!        . . .
  \/   Call the Pythagorean Reform Church BBS at 508-793-9568  . . . .
    
Newsgroups: sci.med.aids
From: Amos.Omondi@comp.vuw.ac.nz (Amos Omondi)
Subject: Re: The Myth of Heterosexual AIDS
Note: Copyright 1992, Dan R. Greening. Non-commercial reproduction allowed.
Archive-Number: 6101
Organization: Dept. of Comp. Sci., Victoria Uni. of Wellington, New Zealand.
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 20:22:37 GMT

In article <1992Sep8.103257.28137@cs.ucla.edu> orange@alfred.ccs.carleton.ca (Paul Vallee) writes:
>this disproportionnate transmission statistic:  In a country where the
>birth control pill is unattainable, and there are no corner drugstores
>to get condoms, I'm afraid anal sex is the preferred method of
>contraception.
>

No it is not.  Try to find a bit more about what goes on in, say, the 
African countries where AIDS is spreading through the heterosexual 
population.  It is mostly through non-anal heterosexual sex.  In fact 
in the Third World, those countries in which anal sex exists currently 
have litle AIDS.  Let me say this just once: The spread of AIDS through
the Third World, and especially Africa, has little to do with anal sex; 
stop this dubious extrapolation from what you see in the West.  Three  
further notes:

1. The birth control pill and condom are not the only methods for 
   birth control. 

2. In many Third World countries there exist traditional methods that 
   do not require corner drugstore; a knowledge of what herbs exist 
   in the backyard suffices.

3. You may be suprised to learn this, but most people in the Third World 
   do not attach the  importance to birth control to the extent that you 
   think they do; once again, don't extrapolate from the West. 

May I urge all contributors to this group to refrain from these simple-
minded analyses that will only serve to spread more ignorance. 

Newsgroups: sci.med.aids
From: dj@shiva.gsb.columbia.edu (Dev Joneja)
Subject: Some basic stats.
Note: Copyright 1992, Dan R. Greening. Non-commercial reproduction allowed.
Reply-To: dj@shiva.gsb.columbia.edu
Archive-Number: 6190
Organization: Columbia Business School
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 21:58:05 GMT

re. AIDS testing, spread, etc.

How reliable are various tests ? Is there a significant difference between 
reliability in the lab vs. in the "field"? How expensive are these tests, and 
if a test is positive, can another one be taken? Is there a strong correlation 
between the errors of different tests?

Thanks. -Dev.
---
-------
Dev Joneja    dj@shiva.gsb.columbia.edu

Newsgroups: sci.med.aids
From: yazz@locus.com (Bob Yazz)
Subject: Re: The Myth of Heterosexual AIDS
Note: Copyright 1992, Dan R. Greening. Non-commercial reproduction allowed.
Archive-Number: 6106
Organization: unspecified
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1992 04:22:38 GMT

Alan.Holmes@brunel.ac.uk (Alan J Holmes) writes:

| orange@alfred.ccs.carleton.ca (Paul Vallee) writes:

| >Dave, you are omitting an extremely important factor that also causes
| >this disproportionnate transmission statistic:  In a country where the
| >birth control pill is unattainable, and there are no corner drugstores
| >to get condoms, I'm afraid anal sex is the preferred method of
| >contraception.
| 
| In this respect, are you saying that the men are the carriers?
| If so how do they get it other than through homosexual activities?

Apparently his point escaped you.  Men having anal sex with women,
not with other men, was the method of contraception.

Regardless of the participating anus's gender, transmission can occur
in either direction.  Neither gender has a monopoly on carrier status.
-- 

"You can put lipstick on a hog, and call it 'Monique', but it's still a pig."

-- Ann Richards, the wildly popular, Harley Riding Governor of Texas
Newsgroups: sci.med.aids
From: Tim Hopkins <tmh@dcs.ed.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: The Myth of Heterosexual AIDS
Note: Copyright 1992, Dan R. Greening. Non-commercial reproduction allowed.
Reply-To: Tim Hopkins <tmh@dcs.ed.ac.uk>
Archive-Number: 6160
Organization: Department of Computer Science, Edinburgh U
Date: 11 Sep 92 10:08:12 GMT

In article <1992Sep10.140036.10103@cs.ucla.edu> tedr@athena.cs.uga.edu (Ted Kalivoda) writes:
>It is clear that the data in the US
>is quite  reliable, and it appears that HIV does not spread easily
>heterosexually.

Re the possibility of a heterosexual epidemic in "first world" countries,
the government medical officer for Scotland announced last night that 34% of
new HIV infections July 91 to June 92 were got during heterosexual sex, up from
27% in the previous year, and making this now the most common transmission
route.

He said "This is a timebomb with a long fuse, but it is still a timebomb",
and predicted that if safer sex is not taken seriously, AIDS could overtake
heart disease as the most common cause of death within 20 years.

Tim
--

Tim Hopkins, Department of Computer Science, University of Edinburgh, JCMB,
King's Buildings, Mayfield Rd., Edinburgh EH9 3JZ, Scotland.
tmh@dcs.ed.ac.uk          ...!mcvax!ukc!dcs!tmh            +44 31 650 5153
Newsgroups: sci.med.aids
From: cup.portal.com!Neon%portal@uunet.UU.NET
Subject: Re: Dealing with "HIV doesn't cause AIDS" people.
Note: Copyright 1992, Dan R. Greening. Non-commercial reproduction allowed.
Archive-Number: 6135
Organization: unspecified
Date: Tue,  8 Sep 92 22:48:28 PDT

In an article 9/8/92 07:24 16/767 doug@cc.ysu.edu (Doug Sewell) writes:

>I have several well-meaning acquaintances that are convinced that HIV
>doesn't cause AIDS.  And they're persistent as <insert favorite evan-
>gelistic cult here> about it, and somehow think that unless I buy into
>what they're offering, they've failed in life.
>
>So far my defenses have been "his methodology has been discredited",
>"he's got a track record for basing his statements on obsolete data",
>"he's a convincing gadfly", or vigorously changing the subject (this
>seems to work better).
>
>What better can I do to deal with these people ?

Just protect yourself.  One can't always persuade others to protect
themselves.

Tony Bruder (PWA) - neon@cup.portal.com
Newsgroups: sci.med.aids
From: Billi Goldberg <bigoldberg@igc.apc.org>
Subject: Lymph Nodes
Note: Copyright 1992, Dan R. Greening. Non-commercial reproduction allowed.
Archive-Number: 6082
Organization: unspecified
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 92 09:27:21 PDT

Fauci et al. talk about the lymph nodes being "burnt-out" in the later
stages of AIDS.
  
How many lymph nodes are there in the body. The best I can come up with
is over a thousand. Does anybody know a precise figure?

Billi
Newsgroups: sci.med.aids
From: tedr@athena.cs.uga.edu (Ted Kalivoda)
Subject: Re: The Myth of Heterosexual AIDS
Note: Copyright 1992, Dan R. Greening. Non-commercial reproduction allowed.
Archive-Number: 6147
Organization: University of Georgia, Athens
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 13:45:18 GMT

In article <1992Sep8.203756.27712@cs.ucla.edu> Amos.Omondi@comp.vuw.ac.nz (Amos Omondi) writes:
>In article <1992Sep8.103257.28137@cs.ucla.edu> orange@alfred.ccs.carleton.ca (Paul Vallee) writes:
>>this disproportionnate transmission statistic:  In a country where the
>>birth control pill is unattainable, and there are no corner drugstores
>>to get condoms, I'm afraid anal sex is the preferred method of
>>contraception.
>>
>
>No it is not.  Try to find a bit more about what goes on in, say, the 
>African countries where AIDS is spreading through the heterosexual 
>population.  It is mostly through non-anal heterosexual sex.  In fact 
>in the Third World, those countries in which anal sex exists currently 
>have litle AIDS.  Let me say this just once: The spread of AIDS through
>the Third World, and especially Africa, has little to do with anal sex; 
>stop this dubious extrapolation from what you see in the West. 

This extrapolation is quite rational.  Exactly what do you base your ideas
on?  How have you gathered your data?  It is clear that the data in the US
is quite  reliable, and it appears that HIV does not spread easily
heterosexually.  I am interested in what study you are referring to and why
you think this study is accurate.

======================================================
 Teddy Kalivoda  ------------> tedr@athena.cs.uga.edu 
   University of GA Computing & Network Services       
     Inst.of Higher Education, UGA, Athens, Georgia               
=====================================================                                                                          
	"The sleep of reason gives rise to monsters"
				        (Goya, Caprichos)

Newsgroups: sci.med.aids
From: Billi Goldberg <bigoldberg@igc.apc.org>
Subject: Acceptable Risks
Note: Copyright 1992, Dan R. Greening. Non-commercial reproduction allowed.
Archive-Number: 6169
Organization: unspecified
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 92 18:13:16 PDT

The new book "Acceptable Risks" about Martin Delaney and Jim Corti
written by Jonathan Kwitny is at the bookstores. It is published by
Poseidon Press.

Hero or Villian?  Draw you own conclusions.

It is well worth reading for interesting stuff about Ribarvin, Isoprinosine,
Dextran Sulfate, Compound Q, players, patsies, etc.

It filled in things for me that I only heard about but didn't know the
details.

I strongly recommend it for anybody really interested in knowing an 
important part of AIDS history.

Billi
Newsgroups: sci.med.aids
From: Alan.Holmes@brunel.ac.uk (Alan J Holmes)
Subject: Re: The Myth of Heterosexual AIDS
Note: Copyright 1992, Dan R. Greening. Non-commercial reproduction allowed.
Archive-Number: 6098
Organization: Brunel University, West London, UK
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 12:03:59 GMT

In article <1992Sep8.103257.28137@cs.ucla.edu> orange@alfred.ccs.carleton.ca (Paul Vallee) writes:

>Dave, you are omitting an extremely important factor that also causes
>this disproportionnate transmission statistic:  In a country where the
>birth control pill is unattainable, and there are no corner drugstores
>to get condoms, I'm afraid anal sex is the preferred method of
>contraception.

In this respect, are you saying that the men are the carriers?
If so how do they get it other than through homosexual activities?

This is not intended to start an anti-homosexual debate.
I just want to know.

Regards

Alan Holmes

Newsgroups: sci.med.aids
From: downey%homer.CS.Berkeley.EDU@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (Allen B. Downey)
Subject: Re: Dealing with "HIV doesn't cause AIDS" people.
Note: Copyright 1992, Dan R. Greening. Non-commercial reproduction allowed.
Archive-Number: 6181
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Date: 14 Sep 1992 16:46:22 GMT

Hi.  You made some good points and raised some of the many common
objections to Duesberg's claims; let me address a couple of them.
I will use the same item numbering from my original post:

1)	I presented Duesberg's alternate hypothesis.  You replied:

>Seriously, there are about 100 times as many exceptions to Duesberg's  
>hypothesis as there are to the HIV hypothesis. His theory is also rather  
>contrived... three sources for an identical set of symptoms?

There are, as you say, relatively few exceptions to the HIV-AIDS hypothesis,
i.e. cases of AIDS diagnosed in the absence of HIV.  But that is because
the presence of HIV is part of the definition of AIDS.  If a patient dies
of pneumonia, for example, and tests HIV-, the diagnosis is pneumonia.  If
he is HIV+, the diagnosis is AIDS.  The correlation between HIV and AIDS
is by construction, not causation.

Regarding the claim that the symptoms among homosexuals, IDUs and Africans
are identical, I submit:

90% of Americans with AIDS contract Pneumocystis pneumonia or Kaposi's
sarcoma, with the latter almost entirely confined to homosexuals.

90% of Africans with AIDS manifest slim disease, fever, and diarrhea

American children with AIDS display a very different mix of symptoms:
pneumonia, wasting disease, dementia, and bacterial infections (the
latest being entirely confined to children).

The point is that the symptoms of AIDS in these groups are as different
as the causes.  (One explanation of these facts, under the HIV-AIDS
hypothesis, is that the immunodeficiency caused by AIDS allows infection
by whatever agents are present.  There are two flaws in this explanation:
1) some of these symptoms, like Kaposi's sarcoma, exist in the absence
of immunodeficiency, and 2) some of these infections agents, like
Pneumocystis carinii and candida, are ubiquitous.)

3)	You said that HIV met all the criteria for being an infectious
	cause of AIDS.  I said that I assumed that by "all the criteria"
	you meant Koch's postulates.  You then rejected Koch's postulates.
	Which criteria did you mean?

ABD

footnotes:  many of the above facts, and even sentence fragments, are lifted
from the following articles:

 Duesberg PH.
     AIDS epidemiology: inconsistencies with human immunodeficiency virus and
     with infectious disease.
   Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States of
   America, 1991 Feb 15, 88(4):1575-9.
     (UI:  91142216)
 Duesberg PH.
      Human immunodeficiency virus and acquired immunodeficiency syndrome:
      correlation but not causation.
    Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States of
    America, 1989 Feb, 86(3):755-64.
      (UI:  89128857)
      Pub type:  Journal Article; Review; Review, Academic.

Newsgroups: sci.med.aids
From: doug@cc.ysu.edu (Doug Sewell)
Subject: Dealing with "HIV doesn't cause AIDS" people.
Note: Copyright 1992, Dan R. Greening. Non-commercial reproduction allowed.
Archive-Number: 6099
Organization: Bush in 92 ? NOT!
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 14:24:19 GMT

I have several well-meaning acquaintances that are convinced that HIV
doesn't cause AIDS.  And they're persistent as <insert favorite evan-
gelistic cult here> about it, and somehow think that unless I buy into
what they're offering, they've failed in life.

So far my defenses have been "his methodology has been discredited",
"he's got a track record for basing his statements on obsolete data",
"he's a convincing gadfly", or vigorously changing the subject (this
seems to work better).

What better can I do to deal with these people ?
--
Doug Sewell, Tech Support, Computer Center, Youngstown State University
doug@cc.ysu.edu	   doug@ysub.bitnet	<internet>!cc.ysu.edu!doug
Family Values: the sexist, racist, homophobic, classist, "Christian" values
of the 50's.
Newsgroups: sci.med.aids