From: durrant@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (unknown)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Vampire and GURPS
Summary: I never said the Storyteller system is better than GURPS--I just tried to refute the claims of stereotyping
Keywords: Vampire, GURPS, stereotypes
Date: 16 Nov 92 21:29:22 GMT
Article-I.D.: mentor.Bxtvp2.MyM
Organization: Purdue University

In article <davis.721941272@cwis>, davis@cwis.unomaha.edu (James J Davis) writes:
> durrant@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (unknown) writes:
> 
> >	I'll admit, I'm really having trouble understanding why some people
> >feel the Storyteller system is so limited and stereotypical.  The clans were
> >meant to be guides, not absolutes.
> 
> The stereotyping goes beyond the clans.  It's in clans, "alignment" (I forget
> the word they use for it) and humanity.  And, in the overall world outlook.
> You can create your own mechanics, I suppose, GURPS helps you with that a lot
> more than Storyteller.  Besides, creating more clans is simply creating more
> stereotypes.  Not very useful, in itself, is it?
> 
> The powers are horribly unbalanced.  Celerity is hand over fist better than
> "toughness" (I forget the word again.)  How can you create new powers?  What
> do you compare them to?  Storyteller is not fit for creation of new powers,
> since the mechanics it has are not meshing well to begin with.
> 
> >	Also, the Catiff class isn't that bad.  You don't get the Clan
> >disicplines at a cheaper price, but you don't have the clan flaws, either. 
> >Also, the higher price for non-clan disciplines isn't there.  Be whatever
> >you want, be creative with his/her background, create a chronicle around
> >finding the sire who abandoned you, ect. ect.  Use your imagination and
> >don't rely on a rulebook or aprinted module to tell you what to do!
> 
> A catiff still suffers the silly prejudice from other vampires.  Why not
> just remove all the other clans and have everyone run Catiffs (now simply
> known as Vampires) and be done with this part of the stereotyping?
> 
> >The Storyteller system can be expanded to whatever you want it to be--just use
> >your mind and not your calculator to do it.
> 
> Christine, you just don't seem to understand.  You can do that in any system.
> But, other games also come with a good system behind them.  I find your points
> about roleplaying true, yet irrelevant.  I consider the same things you are 
> speaking of *every* time I play Hero.  Systems, in themselves, contribute very
> little to roleplaying directly.  Looks at what Storyteller contributes: a clan
> system that would be best ignored, an 'alignment' system that would be best
> ignored, and a humanity system that makes no sense.  GURPS, on the other hand,
> comes with a mental disadvantage system that covers most of the roleplaying
> aspects that you'd want to handle in the mechanics.  I'd say GURPS contributed
> more than Storyteller, since Storyteller is more interested in pigeonholing.
> 
> Now, if we allow ourselves to modify Storyteller to alleviate it's flaws, as
> you suggest, why can't we modify GURPS in a similar manner?  I feel as though
> your arguement against GURPS is a double standard.  So, if we can modify GURPS
> too, how about not keeping track of points?  There, now the systems are a bit
> more on par.  Only GURPS still has better mechanics underlying the system.
> Allowing Storyteller flexibility and not allowing GURPS the same is simply a
> double standard.
> 
> And, what is the bottom line behind SJG doing Vampire?  Well, you'll see some
> new products on the shelf, which you don't have to buy.  Even better, White
> Wolf will still support Storyteller.  And, even if it didn't, you still have
> your books already.  It wouldn't matter if White Wolf collapsed tomorrow, would
> it?  Even if it did, SJG would not come to your door demanding your White Wolf
> books.  They are yours, and the ideas held within are yours forever.
> 
> Not that you even need any particular gaming supplement in particular, since
> roleplaying and gameworld vision comes from within anyway.  For me, all I need
> in a RPG is a system of mechanics to help me out with moderation.  What I am
> saying is that your own gaming is your own vision.  Rules really don't change
> it that much.  They do serve as examples for new gamers, but to the experienced
> gamer with his basic ideas in place, it really doesn't matter.  The system is
> a *tool*: if it's not helping you as much as you want - pick another tool.  I
> prefer Hero over Storyteller, so Hero is the tool I use.
> 
> If you like Storyteller, use it.  I won't fault you for that.  But, I find no
> basis to say it's a better roleplaying system than GURPS. Since roleplaying
> comes from within, very little of a system effects it.  Storyteller does not
> seem to encourage roleplaying.  Rather, it inhibits roleplaying with useless
> stereotyping.  Therefore, I find your assertation that Storyteller is a
> 'better RPG' than GURPS unfounded.
> 
> -james


James--

	In response to your previous post--I never said that the Storyteller
system was "a better RPG" than GURPS.  I was merely trying to explain why
I didn't feel the claim of stereotyping in Vampire--including your claims--
were valid--they just seemed to be related to a basic anal-retentive need to
have *every* possible situation covered by the rules.  (This seems to be a traitfound in most Hero system gamers)  I don't know.  Freud claimed due to a lack oforal stimulation as a child.

You might want to read an entire post before you try to respond to it.

By the way, would you care to back up your claims that the Humanity system in
Vampire is useless??  I would really like to hear why.  

Christine
		If you haven't played Vampire the Masquerade,
		all you've done is roll the dice
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc