HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: dbarker@spang.Camosun.BC.CA (Deryk Barker)
Subject: Re: Want comments on Shaw's Mahler Symphony #8
Organization: Camosun College, Victoria B.C, Canada
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 22:23:13 GMT

tom@astro.as.arizona.edu (Thomas J. Trebisky) writes:
: 
: Someone was asking about great discoveries of 1992.  Well poking
: around in the CD collection in my public library and trying to expand
: my world a bit, I grab a 2 CD set of Mahler's 3rd Symphony, conducted
: by Bernstein and the NYPO.  Wow!  I have heard this before, but it
: never had this impact -- maybe a tribute to Bernstein.  So I am off
: expanding my collection of recordings of Mahler's works.
: 
: That said, I would like to ask some opinions about recordings.
: I have the mahler.txt by Mr. Barker as well as the Penguin Guide,
: and they are serving me well, but tantalizing recordings appear in
: the shops, and I wonder about them:
: 
: Mahler Symphony #8 -- Atlanta Symphony Orch. Shaw -- on Telarc label.
: 	This one tempts me, but I haven't purchased it ... yet.
: 	Should I?


BTW just remembered. Sony's new release sheet has a single disc Sony
Essential Classics (read CHEAP) Mahler 8 conducted by Michael Gielen
available next week. I'm still awaiting a review copy, but, as Steve
Apter will confirm, Gielen's Mahler is worth listening to. Anyone know
anything about this recording? I'm not aware of its ever being issued
before. 

--
Real:  Deryk Barker, Computer Science Dept., Camosun College, Victoria B.C.
Email: (dbarker@spang.camosun.bc.ca)
Phone: +1 604 370 4452
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: km34@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu (Keith Moulton)
Subject: Re: The Met's "Semiramide"
Reply-To: km34@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu (Keith Moulton)
Organization: Columbia University
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 23:32:37 GMT

Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Opera&Hollywood
Summary:
Expires:
Sender:
Reply-To: km34@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu (Keith Moulton)
Followup-To:
Distribution: world
Organization: Columbia University
Keywords: 
	It has occured to me that if contemporary opera wants to succeed as
an art form for everyone, and vitally connected to modern culture, it should
follow the lead of, and even imitate Hollywood.
	I am so disappointed that the New York City Opera could not work out
a deal with the Star Trek folks to put out 'Star Trek-the Opera.'  I forget
the composer's name, but it's completely finished.  My understanding is there
was a disagreement over rights/royalties, etc.  Here is an opera that could be
done in Swahili, and everyone would _still_ know what was going on.
	Now here's an idea:  How about "The Graduate" done as an opera?  (you
can take my idea if you give me credit:).  No special effects are needed,
and the characters and situations are immediately discernible to anyone who
is aware of the significance of the cultural devlopments of the 60s.
	Of course, there is no need to copy the movies outright; but, at least
some attempt should be made by librettists to mould their characters and
situations from contemporary culture.  Consider the hit, "Ghosts of
Versailles" which takes all its material from before 1800!  I liked it very
much, however, most of my generation doesn't know who Marie Antoinette was
let alone Beaumarchais.
	Opera was not intended to be an "intellectual" art, and the art of
Hollywood most certainly is not.  It is only because of our distance from
those opera-producing cultures in time that we have to "do a little homework"
to enjoy opera to the same extent that those in, say, Mozart's time did.  Of
course, I may be wrong.  Librettos concerning recent historical figures seems
to me to be in the right direction (Malcolm X, Nixon, etc.), but still a
cop out.

Keith Moulton.

Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: young@tellabs.com (Craig Young)
Subject: Re: Mahler 7
Organization: Tellabs, Lisle, IL
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 23:34:33 GMT

In article <1993Jan25.111041.3222@st-andrews.ac.uk> gr@st-andrews.ac.uk (Gavin Ramsay) writes:
>In article <1993Jan25.015317.8848@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> jcm2w@kelvin.seas.Virginia.EDU (John Clarke Mccanless) writes:
>>In article <RM0WB3L5@cc.swarthmore.edu> rbrooks1@cc.swarthmore.edu (Robert Brooks) writes:
>>>Picked up the DG Bernstein Mahler 7 yesterday from Philly Tower Records and
>>>it completely blew me away (thanks Deryk ;-) ).  I saw the Horenstein too
>>>but I'm afraid I fell into the digital trap in deciding which version to buy
>>>(it's my first) although I do intend to pick it (Horenstein) up at some
>>>point.  Anyone else want to comment on their favorite 7? 
>>
>>Why...YES! I'LL take a turn! (again! :) )
>>
>>I love this 7th, also,ut for some reason, perhaps Bud Herseth's amazing
>>intensity (as principal trumpet), I like the Abbado/Chicago recording a
>>hair better.  
>>
>>
>>-- 
>>John C. McCanless				jcm2w@virginia.edu
>>
>>"Genius!  Pure, unadulterated, GENIUS!!"  - Wile E. Coyote
>
>Have you heard the new Rattle 7? For me, it beats even Berstein! 
>gav

Going back to the reference to Bud Herseth, for a minute, here is an
interesting aside:

An interesting comparison to make with Chicago Symphony Orchestra recordings of
Mahler 7 is to compare either the Solti analog recording from the late sixties
to the late 70's Abbado/CSO and Levine/CSO performances. It sounds to me like
the trumpet section is playing rotary-valve trumpets on the Abbado recording.
The Solti recording is definitely piston, and I believe that the Levine is too.
I own all three of these recordings, and have a hard time deciding which one I
like the best, although I would probably pick the Abbado if pressed.

Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: langs@puhep1.princeton.edu (David Langs)
Subject: Re: Mahler 7
Originator: news@nimaster
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 00:20:07 GMT

In article <RM0WB3L5@cc.swarthmore.edu> rbrooks1@cc.swarthmore.edu (Robert Brooks) writes:
>Picked up the DG Bernstein Mahler 7 yesterday from Philly Tower Records and
>it completely blew me away (thanks Deryk ;-) ).  I saw the Horenstein too
>but I'm afraid I fell into the digital trap in deciding which version to buy
>(it's my first) although I do intend to pick it (Horenstein) up at some
>point.  Anyone else want to comment on their favorite 7? 
>-- 
>Rob Brooks
>rbrooks1@cc.swarthmore.edu
>
>Selig sind, die da Leid tragen, denn sie sollen getrostet werden.

I must say, the recording that has become my favorite surprised me.  I
bought the Solti/Chicago boxed set of the nine Symphonies last summer,
mainly for the Eighth, Fifth, First, and to a lesser extent some of the
others.  I did not really expect to like the Seventh in that set from
what I had read about it.  I was amazed.  I had heard other recordings
of this symphony before but it had never been one of my favorites.  It
always seemed too long and in parts, rather dull.  The finale seemed
especially difficult to approach, episodic and sometimes bordering on
banal.  Given that Solti always conducts Mahler in a vigorous, energetic
way but doesn't always bring out the architectural integrity to produce
a wholly satisfying result, I expected I would hate his 7th.  Well, I
was flabergasted.  Any problems in the symphony seemed to melt away
under his baton.  As always he conducts a fiery and dramatic performance
but it was so successful in evoking the images Mahler was after that it
made for a revealing, albeit exhausting experience.  I have never heard
the finale hang together so well.  Solti steers through all the changing
moods and dynamics effortlessly and with sure aim.  I have listened to
this recording three times now, and always at the end I have the urge to
jump up and shout bravo (although I generally don't as it would wake the
family up and be generally embarrassing.)  Although I feel no need to
buy another Seventh I am curious about Horenstein's.  Does anyone have
any comments on it?

                                           Dave



-- 
                           Dave Langs, Dept. of Physics
                           Princeton University
                           langs@puhep1.Princeton.EDU
From: jwa@vipunen.hut.fi (Jyrki J Wahlstedt)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Schipa, Gigli, and Tagliavini
Date: 27 Jan 93 03:32:24 GMT
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland


  There were mentioned many tenor voices like those in the subject line.

  I myself am not too found of the opera, but I've always liked Jussi
  Bjoerling. He must be one of the best tenors of this century. His voice
  and way of singing is a bit different from the Italians, but superb
  in any case.
  (And here in Finland before every Christmas we hear Adolphe Adam's
  song "O holy night" sung by him (from some opera, don't remember what))
--
!
!  Jyrki.Wahlstedt@hut.fi
!  Home: Lansankallionkuja 2 B 12  phone:+358-0-52 46 81
!	 02630 Espoo
!	 Finland
!
!  Our life is no dream, but it should and will perhaps become one.
!
From: syliao@rice-chex.ai.mit.edu (Stan Y Liao)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Bach's Sonatas & Partitas Vln Solo
Date: 23 Jan 1993 22:06:39 GMT
Organization: MIT Artificial Intelligence Laboratory
NNTP-Posting-Host: rice-chex.ai.mit.edu

>> Did Ruggiero Ricci ever record a set of these?  I once heard him playing
>> the E Major Partita live: about the most spinecrawlingly astonishing violin
>> playing I've ever heard.  Could he do as well in the studio?
>> 

I remember having seen Ricci's recording of the S&P on MCA, for a
bargain price (2 CDs for the price of 1 mid-price CD).  Haven't heard
it, though.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Stan Yi-Huang Liao                                  syliao@rle-vlsi.mit.edu
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Research Laboratory of Electronics    Massachusetts Institute of Technology
From: jcm2w@kelvin.seas.Virginia.EDU (John Clarke Mccanless)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Who does Tchaikovsky well?
Date: 26 Jan 93 23:17:09 GMT
Organization: University of Virginia

In article <C1H6I1.DDo@cup.hp.com> tomm@cup.hp.com (Tom McNeal) writes:
>: 	Years ago (1975??), I was in Chicago downtown, wandering by
>: 	Symphony hall, I found that a performance was soon to begin,
>: 	and some tickets had been returned for resale by people who
>: 	had previously purchased them but could not make it.  To make
>: 	a long story short, I got a ticket for a bargain price and
>: 	found myself with a very good seat -- and the CSO did
>: 	Tchaikovsky's 6th symphony.  It was a potent performance,
>: 	I have never heard it like this before or since.  Wish I
>: 	could remember who the conductor was.
>
>Solti had taken over Chicago by then.  It wasn't him?
>
Most music directors only conduct about a third of their orchestra's
concerts per season, so one could say, "Probably not."


-- 
John C. McCanless				jcm2w@virginia.edu

"Genius!  Pure, unadulterated, GENIUS!!"  - Wile E. Coyote
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: jcm2w@kelvin.seas.Virginia.EDU (John Clarke Mccanless)
Subject: Re: BMG December catalog query
Organization: University of Virginia
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 17:32:38 GMT

In article <1993Jan21.221820.10454@athena.mit.edu> kamorgan@athena.mit.edu (Keith Morgan) writes:
>I need someone to clarify the offer in the December "Encore" (#
>C/88/O, I believe). This was the one with 60% off. I've discarded mine
>but I thought it was everything but the main selection at 60% off with
>one free. Was I suffering from a Christmas fever? My choices arrived
>today and both are 60% off but nothing free. And of course the deal is
>to get as many as possible at the least expenditure!
>
Of course it is! And EVERYONE knows that you therefore always wait for
the 3-for-1 deals!  They come in two forms: straight 3-for-1, or "buy
2 at 1/2 price and get 1 free".  Sheesh. :)

-- 
John C. McCanless				jcm2w@virginia.edu

"Genius!  Pure, unadulterated, GENIUS!!"  - Wile E. Coyote

Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: apter@fid.morgan.com (Steve Apter)
Subject: Re: Want comments on Shaw's Mahler Symphony #8
Organization: Morgan Stanley & Co., New York, NY
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 16:56:10 GMT

In article <1993Jan21.154921.20175@news.acns.nwu.edu> mkahn@merle.acns.nwu.edu (Michael Kahn) writes:
>
>
>In article <1993Jan21.061425.25782@organpipe.uug.arizona.edu> tom@astro.as.arizona.edu (Thomas J. Trebisky) writes:
>>Mahler Symphony #8 -- Atlanta Symphony Orch. Shaw -- on Telarc label.
>>	This one tempts me, but I haven't purchased it ... yet.
>>	Should I?
>>


Wait for Sinopoli, or the live Tennstedt.


>I've read several glowing reviews of this recording but haven't gotten the
>gumption to go out and get it for whatever reason.
>
>>Mahler Symphony #5 -- Solti, Chicago Symphony -- London (Decca) 1991
>>	This one already got me -- It is well recorded but it is
>>	the only #5 I have ever heard, so I have nothing to compare
>>	it to.  Comments?  Have I missed something else really superb?
>>
>
>This is one of my all-time favorite pieces; and by far my favorite version.


???  OK, de gustibus and all that.  But at least have a listen to the
*new* Tennstedt on EMI.  Some hate it, some love it.

  
>
>--Michael Kahn
>mlk@nwu.edu
>
>
>
>


Steve
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: P.D.Q. Bach (Was Re: Vocal contributions from the orchestra
From: phoogenboom@eagle.wesleyan.edu
Date: 21 Jan 93 20:10:17 EST
 <1993Jan15.222407.6107@spang.Camosun.BC.CA> <1ja00eINN5r7@gap.caltech.edu> <1993Jan19.220537.29056@news.columbia.edu>
Organization: Wesleyan University

In article <1993Jan19.220537.29056@news.columbia.edu>, nsh3@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu (Nadine S Harris) writes:
> 
> Gee, I really liked one number from the recent Town Hall
CARNEGIE Hall (as they have been for a LONG time).

> Nadine
Peter
From: chuconl@yalevm.ycc.yale.edu (Conrad Chu)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Music Quiz - Murderous Composers?
Date: 27 Jan 93 22:10:13 GMT
Followup-To: rec.music.classical
Organization: Public Macs, Yale University

In article <1k019nINNmbq@escargot.xx.rmit.OZ.AU>,
ryljjc@minyos.xx.rmit.oz.au (Jacqui Conn) wrote:
> 
> I am trying to track down the following quotes.
> 
> 2)  Of which (then young) French composer did Berlioz say: 'He knows everything, but lacks inexperience'?
> 
I believe Berlioz was actually referring to the young Camille Saint-Saens,
whose  
precocity in all things musical (composing and concertizing) invited
comparisons
with the young Mozart or the young Mendelssohn.  His works are always
deftly 
constructed and highly polished, even if they lack real invention.  Above
all,   
Saint-Saens believed in a conservative, neoclassical approach to
composition; in this sense he was the direct antithesis of his
contemporary, Debussy.


Conrad Chu, Yale University
chuconl@yalevm.ycc.yale.edu
--
This message was posted from a public Macintosh at Yale University.  The
identity of the poster is not necessarily their true one.
From: jmalcolm@sura.net (Joseph Malcolm)
Subject: Re: Classical Music for modern instrument (was Re: The shortest distance between two chords is...)
Organization: SURAnet, College Park, MD, USA, NA, Earth, Milky Way
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 00:16:25 GMT

In article <C1Er20.2DC@sci.kun.nl> pieterh@sci.kun.nl (Peter Herweijer) writes:
>In <1993Jan23.033540.11775@colorado.edu> judd@wilkinson.cs.colorado.edu (Stephen Judd) writes:
>
>>I am simply looking for new music to explore, particularly that which is
>>harmonically creative in a devoid area, i.e. real innovation.
>
>I am going to be slaughtered for this...

One hopes not. It would probably be very unpleasant.

>(Some, not all) Metal, Trash, Grindcore, Deathmetal.  These guys are
>young, but the best of them have a good technique and know more than
>your average pop musician abouth what they're doing.  They are not
>interested in conforming to normal pop-music practice or making the
>music easy on the ear.  You'll find -if you can make it out through
>the distortion- harsh dissonances, tonalities all over the place,
>irregular meters etc.

Alas, I know nothing of musical theory, or I would recommend some
interesting metal; perhaps some other person who enjoys both classical
and metal (yes, they do exist) and knows something of musical theory
can make some recommendations?

>Of course, it's what most people would refer to as an 'unholy racket'.

Yes, that is rather the point. Typical thrash, death metal, and grindcore
vocalization techniques are also an acquired taste. (Not so for most
doom metal, though.)

>It is also as far from classical music as one can get.

Perhaps. Surely the classical music world has had its makers of much
noise?

-- 
Joseph Malcolm				jmalcolm@sura.net		
SURAnet Operations			+1 301 982 4600
From: maverick@fir.CS.Berkeley.EDU (Vance Maverick)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Classical Music for modern instrument (was Re: The shortest distance between two chords is...)
Date: 22 Jan 1993 17:46:08 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: fir.cs.berkeley.edu

In article <1993Jan22.165442.20387@colorado.edu>, judd@wilkinson.cs.colorado.edu (Stephen Judd) writes:
|> 
|> First point: I am not saying that 'simple' is inherently bad.

Aren't you saying that "harmonically simple" means "musically simple"?

|> However, you seem to imply above that reading Piston would degrade the
|> music. 

No.

|> Is jazz so distinct from the more classical forms that the
|> two are incompatible?

I guess I don't know what you mean by this.  To return to my example,
I really don't think an identifiable German 6th could be used in
jazz except as a reference to the 18th-century classical idiom.

|> Although I have never studied jazz, it seems to me to be a music that
|> developed considerable sophistication.  Why?  My theory is that a
|> musician with a (first) an excellent ear and (second) a creative, intelligent
|> mind will begin to become bored with the old form, and create something new.
|> This is what pushes the music forwards.  This certainly is why classical
|> has developed.  I would guess the same is true for jazz.  It happens for
|> film scores, etc.  Curiously, though, the opposite seems to be true in the
|> popular world, for the most part.

There was a brief explosion of invention in the "popular" music
world; I think market forces began quickly to conspire against it.
We're seeing something similar now in the world of jazz, with
the recent wide popularity of 50's-style post-bop.  (I won't mention
the Marsalises by name.)

|> The Beatles were an exception, certainly.  It seems clear that they became
|> bored with the older forms, of others and of themselves, and so they
|> expanded the medium.

They were far from the only ones.  Anyway, I agree with you that most
pop music is bad and unadventurous; I just want to contest your claim
that the problem is the lack of one specific form of adventure.

	Vance
From: rbrooks1@cc.swarthmore.edu (Robert Brooks)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Mahler 7
Date: 24 Jan 93 18:50:58 GMT
Article-I.D.: cc.RM0WB3L5
Organization: Swarthmore College

Picked up the DG Bernstein Mahler 7 yesterday from Philly Tower Records and
it completely blew me away (thanks Deryk ;-) ).  I saw the Horenstein too
but I'm afraid I fell into the digital trap in deciding which version to buy
(it's my first) although I do intend to pick it (Horenstein) up at some
point.  Anyone else want to comment on their favorite 7? 
-- 
Rob Brooks
rbrooks1@cc.swarthmore.edu

Selig sind, die da Leid tragen, denn sie sollen getrostet werden.
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: dschmidt@athena.mit.edu (Dan Schmidt)
Subject: Re: Classical Music for modern instrument
Organization: the act or process of organizing or of being organized
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 20:43:44 GMT

There is plenty of music being made with "rock" instruments which is
fairly complex.  At one level, there are many rock songwriters whose
use of melody, harmony & rhythm are on a par (IMHO) with the popular
composers of earlier this century - The Beatles of course, Paul Simon,
XTC, Elvis Costello, to name a few.  (Incidentally, Elvis Costello
just released an album with the Brodsky quartet.  I've only heard a
bit of it, but it was quite a bit better than I had feared - neither
classical music with rock forced on it or vice versa.)  One of my
favorite bands is the Pixies, whose chord progressions (although
almost all chords are major or minor in root progression) and meter
shifts are often quite astonishing (as well as surprisingly catchy).

Rock music that consciously takes classical music as an influence is
not something that I like very much of.  Some exceptions are some King
Crimson albums (recommended are Larks' Tongues in Aspic, Starless and
Bible Black, and Red), Gentle Giant (Free Hand is a great album,
except for an embarrassing faux-baroque instrumental), Henry Cow.  I
can't stand most of Yes, ELP, or the Moody Blues.  I would recommend
any non-improvised work of Fred Frith (the improvised stuff is great,
but in a different category) as great examples of complex music that
can be made in the rock idiom - his groups include the aforementioned
Henry Cow, as well as Skeleton Crew and the Art Bears, all of which
are worth listening to.  Some of the New York crowd I like a lot,
especially Bill Frisell and John Zorn.  I must admit I'm not fond of
Frank Zappa, although he is often championed as a rock composer who
knows his classical stuff; the juvenile lyrics tend to ruin it for me.

However, now that I have claimed that rock can be both complex and
successful, I must admit that I like much of my rock stupid.  In
general, I don't listen to rock the same way that I listen to
"classical" music.  The Ramones are one of my favorite rock bands, but
I certainly don't look for the same things in their music that I do in
Berg.  They do have a great sense of melody, though.

Incidentally, since you originally brought up the subject with
reference to harmony, the difference in harmonic complexity between an
average Schubert song and a well-written rock tune is probably less
than you'd think.

Dan
From: hatunen@netcom.com (David W Hatunen)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Define "Well Tempered"
Date: 22 Jan 93 15:54:21 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)

In a scientifically proper musical scale, related harmonics are
related by integer relationships. This was discovered by the
ancient Greeks. Thus, the frequencies should be as, say, 5:3.

Unfortunately, this means that you must retune your instrument
for each different scale you wish to play. Which is impossible
with some instruments. In the evenly tempered scale, the octave,
or 2:1 relationship is divided into twelve geometrically evenly
spaced intervals. Take the twelfth root of two (approx 1.05946..).
Each tone bears this relationship to the next lowest tone.
That way, no matter what scale you play, it will sound harmonically
the same.

The problem is that a third interval is no longer exactly a third;
that is, it no longer consists of two tones in a simple integer
relationship. It's very close, but no cigar, and the difference
is noticable.

So, an even tempered scale doesn't sound quite as good as a
diatonic scale. But it makes the piano possible (you don't have
to retune for each different scale) and it makes music with
key changes possible.

As I understand it, Bach wrote the Well-tempered Klavier as a
demonstration of the advantages of an even tempered scale.
-- 
----- DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@netcom.com) -----
---- Daly City CA: almost San Francisco -----