HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: rowe@pender.ee.upenn.edu (Mickey Rowe)
Newsgroups: talk.origins
Subject: Re: Friesen on elastics and sauropod necks
Date: 7 Oct 92 14:51:33 GMT
Organization: University of Pennsylvania

In article <59@fedfil.UUCP> news@fedfil.UUCP (news) writes:

}In article <91759@netnews.upenn.edu>, rowe@pender.ee.upenn.edu
   (Mickey Rowe) writes:
 
}*Female giraffes hold their necks horizontal while they eat.  Because
}*of this, male and female giraffes tend not to compete for the same
}*resources.  Despite Ted's fantasies, giraffes have little difficulty
}*supporting their heads with their necks horizontal, even though
}*they're not mechanically designed for it as diploducids were.  What
}*giraffes do have difficulty supporting is Ted's arguments.
}
}You've missed the entire point here, which makes you a member in good standing
}of what I refer to as the t.o regular crew;  that's the norm.

Aw right!!!! Does this make my status as a talk.origins irregular
official? 

}I can hold 60 or 70 lbs out from my body with my elbow at my side easily
}enough...  for a few seconds.  Maybe even for a minute or so.  But all day?
}
}I don't think so.

Perhaps if you'd left off the word "so", I'd have agreed with you
here.  Ted, as someone so fond of discussing how much time large
animals have to spend eating, you might want to actually learn
something about giraffes and see how much time they spend doing it.
Why don't you give us a reputable source that indicates that a giraffe
holding its neck horizontal is even remotely similar to you holding
out a 60 pound weight.  By reputable source, I mean someone who's
actually spent time watching actual giraffes (maybe you can get that
great field biologist Antti to do it for you).

}The giraffe can hold its neck out horizontally long enough to drink or 
}perform some other function of short duration.  No problem.

Are you suggesting that they drink on their sides, or do you think
there are ten foot tall cups filled with water hanging out on the
savannahs?  I told you (in the past I even pointed you to a reference
with a picture) that female giraffes *eat* in this position.  This is
their *normal* behavior, not something they do every now and then only
to prove a point.

}But all day long?  I doubt it.

You doubt it only because you don't know anything about it.  Ted from where
does your expertise in biomechanics come?  

}Scientists are now claiming that sauropod dinosaurs held their heads out
}horizontally, all day long, every day of their lives, because they could
}not have gotten blood to their brains otherwise.  

This too is false, Ted.  Stan has pointed it out to you before; I'll
point it out again.  Diploducids are thought to have held their necks
nearly horizontally not because of any models of their physiology.
They are thought to have held their heads that way because that's the
way the bones fit together.  Until and unless that gets through to
you, I won't bother to mention the brachiosaurs...

}Get the picture?

Yes.  And despite your assertions, the picture does not resemble
reality. 

}Ted Holden
}HTE

Mickey Rowe     (rowe@pender.ee.upenn.edu)
Newsgroups: talk.origins
From: isaak@aurora.com (Mark Isaak)
Subject: Re: Applauses to Ted
Reply-To: isaak@aurora.com (Mark Isaak)
Organization: The Aurora Group
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 92 20:40:45 GMT

In article <BRUCE.92Oct9114117@suprenum.uxb.liv.ac.uk> bruce@uxb.liv.ac.uk (Bruce Stephens) writes:
>> All we need is an Earth with twice the radius and the surface gravity
>> is only 25% of what it is now.  Are you listening Ted?
>
>Doesn't this idea make the Flood much more difficult?  After all, now
>we've got 4 times the surface area to cover.

No problem.  We simply don't postulate that the flood occurred everywhere
simultaneously.  When the Earth collapsed to its present radius, it did so
in stages.  With each stage, a different section of land collapsed and
became flooded, to dry off again when the next section of land collapsed.
-- 
Mark Isaak           "Every generation thinks it has the answers, and every
isaak@aurora.com      generation is humbled by nature." - Philip Lubin
From: swf@teradata.com (Stanley Friesen)
Newsgroups: talk.origins
Subject: Re: Race Memory  (was: Progressive Creationism Part 6)
Date: 7 Oct 92 19:26:22 GMT
Reply-To: swf@tdat.teradata.com (Stanley Friesen)
Organization: NCR Teradata Database Business Unit

In article <1992Oct5.184924.2960@aurora.com> isaak@aurora.com (Mark Isaak) writes:
|In article <1992Oct5.143935.23860@nsisrv.gsfc.nasa.gov> jgacker@news.gsfc.nasa.gov (Jim Acker) writes:
|>(I still think it [global flood story] is race memory of when the
|>Mediterranean refilled, and yet I hear no one supporting that theory.
|>Shoot me down, guys.  Too early?)
|
|My big objection to that theory is that I've never seen any evidence
|that such a thing as race memories exist, at least in the sense of
|memories we're born with.  If you're talking about stories passed
|verbally from generation to generation, then, yes, the Mediterranean
|refilling could be a source, but I strongly suspect that that story
|would have been lost in the noise of stories of smaller but more recent 
|floods ages ago.  Also, the Biblical flood talks about rain, which
|wouldn't necessarily be a factor in the Mediterranean flood.

Also, the refilling is *way* too early - it predates all known hominid
fossils (though not hominoid).  So there was nobody around to *tell* the
story.

|I see no reason to doubt that the story was based on a particularly
|large river flood.  Such a flood could easily cover hundreds of suqare
|miles, which, to a peasant farmer, would be the whole world.

Do you remember the flood in India a year or so ago - it *did* cover
hundreds of square miles.

And there is evidence of even larger floods in the Yellow River basin
in China.

-- 
sarima@teradata.com			(formerly tdatirv!sarima)
  or
Stanley.Friesen@ElSegundoCA.ncr.com
From: rk3h+@andrew.cmu.edu (Robert J. Knapp)
Newsgroups: talk.origins
Subject: Re: Plant Death before the Fall (Gall Bladders Anyone?)
Date: 15 Oct 92 18:06:43 GMT
 <Bvw2pA.3np@well.sf.ca.us> <Bvw345.41E@well.sf.ca.us> 
 <1243@tdat.teradata.COM> <1992Oct13.112302@IASTATE.EDU> <Bw3090.GuH@scd.hp.com>
	<1992Oct14.084512@IASTATE.EDU>
Organization: Junior, Physics, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA

> I was quoting a number of PBS specials (yep, not just one said this, but a
>bunch).  PBS has made a number of serious screw ups in the past ("Baby Ruth"
>named after the presidents daughter comes to mind.  Someone should have
checked
>the dates before making up a story like that) so I apologize if I am in error.
>However, it does match my experiences with house cats.

Please explain why every morning my back porch is covered with mouse
guts.  Cats do eat small animals, it's part of their "circuitry," they
will however leave a gift of the digistive system for their owners in
exchange for the food and attention the cats recieve.  My source for
this is ALSO a PBS documentary called "Cats". It was on over the summer
Rob "Money is not our God" Knapp

Open a book,				|	LEGALIZE
and open your mind			|
the only thing they can't censor	|	[MNIBG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!]
is logic.				|
-------------------------------------------------------------
"Life is something to be experinced through the eyes of a child."
                   			-Me
Newsgroups: talk.origins
From: matth@extro.ucc.su.OZ.AU (Matthew Hannigan)
Subject: Re: pi=3 (was Re: Abuse By t.o Regulars
Organization: AODC, but I don't speak for them.
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 11:51:25 GMT

In article <1992Oct9.161412.15246@newsgate.sps.mot.com> weaver@chdasic.sps.mot.com (Dave Weaver) writes:
>sieferme@carson.u.washington.edu (Eric Sieferman) writes:
>
>>>From 1 Kings 7:23...
>>>The given diameter is 10, which has ONE significant digit.
>>>The given circumference is 30, which has ONE significant digit.
>>
>>Looks like TWO significant digits to me.
>
>BZZZZZZZZ Wrong answer, please check with your local math text.
>     3000 has one significant digit.
>       30 has one significant digit.
>       31 has two significant digits.
>     31.4 has three significant digits.
>Zeros to the right, in the abscence of a decimal point, aren't significant.

I didn't check with any text, but how do you distinguish
between exactly 3000 (3 sig figs) and approx 3000 (1 sig fig).
It is really undecidable.  There was (briefly) a convention
of putting a bar over the last sig fig. eg   _
                                          3000, but this is
clumsy.
I would guess you would have to use scientific notation.
3e3 has 1 sig fig and 3.000e3 has 3 sig figs.

Anyway, the whole idea of abscribing some confidence on
the part of the person describing the tank or whatever it
is a bit silly.  Don't ya wish God used sci notation!

Isn't there a mention of this pi=3 rubbish in a periodical
posting to somewhere in the news.* heirarchy?

Regards,
	-Matt
matt@aodc20.aodc.gov.au
From: jani.patokallio%acc1bbs@ssr.com (Jani Patokallio) 
Newsgroups: talk.origins
Subject: Re: t.o., the home game
Date: 15 Oct 92 17:05:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Advanced Computer Concepts BBS, New Rochelle, NY 914-654-1981
Reply-To: jani.patokallio%acc1bbs@ssr.com (Jani Patokallio) 

In article <BvvDKB.2nE@sdf.lonestar.org> (Corey Carroll) writes:
-> In article <97924#bu.edu> colby@bu-bio.bu.edu (Chris Colby) writes:
-> >+250 for convincing a C'ist of the fact of common descent and
-> >modification with descent (This may seem like a lot of points,
-> >but I don't think I've ever seen this happen so I made it worth
-> >alot.)
-> 
-> Why does it seem like a lot of points?  *I* was a creationist,
-> and now I'm convinced.  If you want to divide up the 250 points
-> between yourselves, I would split it amongst Chris Colby, Jim
-> Lippard, Kent Sandvik, Sue Bishop, and Seth Bradley.

Yes, but you're the only one so far...  Besides, you were never like
Holden & Co.  You never spewed out megabytes of baseless pro-creation
propaganda.  Maybe it should be amended to "convincing an active C'ist"?
There are probably some Creationists out there who changed their opinions
but never had the guts to admit it.

---
 . AME 1.07 . Atheist: someone with no invisible means of support.
                       
Newsgroups: talk.origins
From: weaver@chdasic.sps.mot.com (Dave Weaver)
Subject: Re: pi=3 (was Re: Abuse By t.o Regulars
Organization: SPS
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 21:01:49 GMT

I am not a regular reader of t.o, but just passing through looking
for something interesting...

We had this pi=3 discussion on t.r.m a while back. My reply...

From 1 Kings 7:23...
The given diameter is 10, which has ONE significant digit.
The given circumference is 30, which has ONE significant digit.

Divide two numbers of one sig digit, and how many digits can you
keep in the result?  pi=3 is correct to ONE significant digit.
Where is the error? 
Are Biblical authors not allowed to round off measurements?


Dave Weaver

Newsgroups: talk.origins
From: amorgan@Xenon.Stanford.EDU (Crunchy Frog)
Subject: Re: 350 lb super-athlete goat?
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University.
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 02:05:40 GMT

In article <65@fedfil.UUCP> news@fedfil.UUCP (news) writes:
>In article <1992Oct8.054419.25692@scic.intel.com>, 
>  sbradley@scic.intel.com (Seth Bradley) writes:
>
>*Or maybe you could actually pay attention to the several posts which
>*have described gorillas as being able to do that or more?  But then,
>*that would have you paying attention to facts, and we know that's
>*just not going to happen...

.. deleted ..

>So, as a fair contrast, I'm asking the t.o crew to show me an example of
>a creature which is roughly Kaz' size, which is also low on the food chain
>(which leaves out gorillas, big cats, and all other such contenders), and
>which can lift 2000 lbs.

Classic Ted.  We win, so you change the rules.  Gorillas are a counter
example.  You decide you don't want to count them and demand *another*
counter example.

>Ted Holden
>HTE
Hates To Explain

C Frog
Newsgroups: talk.origins
From: asiivo@cs.joensuu.fi (Antti Siivonen)
Subject: Re: Methinks it's like a weasel (Blind Watchmaker)
Organization: University of Joensuu
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 14:30:25 GMT

ksand@apple.com (Kent Sandvik) writes:
>I guess this is your problem, you can't see how small parts together
>form a higher thinking entity. I guess you also wonder how transistors
>can't think, but the computer thinks. You have a lot of problematic
>cases, because this world is built upon single components forming
>higher abstraction levels. What am I doing, I'm teaching a
>biologist-wannabe
>the basics of biology :-).

	No, actually a creature is more than a sum of its parts. 
-- 

		Andreas - Siperian Sirri   Siberian Stint

	No ITU, love, evolution.           Tuusniemi ! Siis imein suut !
From: kmagnacca@eagle.wesleyan.edu
Newsgroups: talk.origins
Subject: Re: Friesen on elastics and sauropod necks
Date: 15 Oct 92 20:19:17 GMT
Organization: Wesleyan University

In article <73@fedfil.UUCP>, news@fedfil.UUCP (news) writes:
> In article <2633@devnull.mpd.tandem.com>, bruceb@mpd.tandem.com (Bruce Burden) writes:
> 
> *>In our age, central asians have been trying to breed eagles (berkuts) for
> *>size and strength for 2000 years, and cannot get them beyond 25 lbs, at
> *>which point they begin to experience sever problems taking off.  You've seen
> *>my long post on prehistoric flying creatures;  I'll repost it shortly.
> 
> *	Of course, this doesn't really mean anything. Ted refuses to
> *    take genetics into account. (Ted, a quick test: Both parents are
> *    6' tall. Their children will most likely be: a) the same size;
> *    b) taller; c) shorter; than the parents?) The point is, maybe some-
> *    thing other than gravity is at work here?
> 
> Then the sauropods should never have evolved at all, should they?  Remember,
> evolutionists are claiming that the sauropods evolved from single-celled
> creatures, only a few microns tall.

   Ted, another quick test - you take a group of people all over
six feet tall, and select their children for the tallest, will you
ever get anyone over eight or maybe nine feet tall?  No.  There is 
a limit to how fast you can change things like size.  Give the eagle
breeders a couple of million more years to give the eagles time to
change their wing muscle attachment and you might get something.

> Changes in size come easier than any other form of evolution.  Both 
> great danes and chihauhuas have been bred from the same wolves within the
> last few thousand years.

   The great dane is not all that much bigger than a wolf, and it's
easier to breed something smaller than bigger (compare the difference
in size of a Clydsdale and a Shetland pony to an average-size horse
and you'll see what I mean).

> Try watching films of albatross takeoffs and landings.  It's real easy to
> see why nothing gets any bigger than 35 lbs or so and flies any more.

   Try listening to what they're saying during the film.  If you
knew even the slightest bit about albatross you'd know they have
extremely weak wing muscles couples with very long wings, which 
makes taking off difficult (not to mention just flapping).  Condors
have wingspans that are just as long but have no trouble taking off
because they're built better. 

Karl
From: lip@s1.gov (Loren I. Petrich)
Newsgroups: talk.origins
Subject: Re: Plant Death before the Fall (Gall Bladders Anyone?)
Date: 16 Oct 92 06:56:39 GMT
Organization: LLNL

In article <1992Oct14.143336.26046@city.cs> lionel@cs.city.ac.uk (Lionel Tun) writes:
>In article <1243@tdat.teradata.COM> swf@tdat.teradata.com (Stanley Friesen) writes:
$ In article <Bvw345.41E@well.sf.ca.us> keithd@well.sf.ca.us (Keith Doyle) writes:
$ |
$ |I presume now that we have determined that felines

	I presume that this refers to the preferred food of felines,
which is almost exclusively meat.

	I note that some vegetarians have come up with a vegetarian
cat food called Vegecat, so that their pet cats can eat a Politically
Correct food. I'm not sure what's involved in preparing it, however.

$ |Also, aren't there some species whose young are born inside
$ |the body of one of the parents, and who eat their way out
$ |or something like that, implying that they too, may have
$ |had to go through a bit of evolution after the Fall to get
$ |to such a state.
$ 
$ Yep, there are several such.  Also species of *parasite* that are specialized
$ to take over a host's body as they grow from egg to pupa.  [This one is
$ *really* gross - even to a trained biologist].

>This sort of thing `nature red in tooth and claw', did not
>happen before the Fall. I agree - its really ugly how life
>has been corrupted by Sin.

	Does that mean that all animals were vegetarians before the
Fall? What did the felines live off of? Vegecat? But the Bible makes
no mention of all animals supposedly being vegetarians, let alone the
felines eating Vegecat. I don't think the Bible mentions Vegecat
anywhere.

	Lionel Tun's view used to be held rather widely by
theologians. But the discovery of fossilized predatory animals was a
major embarrassment. In the early 19th cy., the biologist Hugh Miller
agonized over this problem, and finally decided that the predatory
animals had been possessed by demons.

	Not surprisingly, there turned out to be _lots_ of death
before humanity came into existence, even mass extinctions.

	And predatory animals are at least 600 million years old --
there is a really spectacular one from the mid-Cambrian called
_Anomalocaris_ that is illustrated in Gould's book _Wonderful Life_.

	If that creature had survived, then would Stephen Spielberg
have made a movie called "Big Mouth"? (I _think_ it was he who made
"Jaws").
Newsgroups: talk.origins
From: ingles@engin.umich.edu (Ray Ingles)
Subject: Re: Water Sorting
Date: Thu, 08 Oct 92 10:40:13 EDT
Organization: University of Michigan Engineering, Ann Arbor

In article <BvsxD6.67t@access.digex.com> huston@access.digex.com (Herb Huston) writes:
>In article <0+4-QK+@engin.umich.edu> ingles@engin.umich.edu (Ray Ingles) writes:
>> One might almost suspect that you were avoiding issues. In fact, I so
>>assert. Lionel is avoiding these issues. You can easily prove me wrong,
>>Lionel; and if you do, I will offer a public and abject apology. The
>>way to prove me wrong is to respond to this post in a point-by-point
>>manner, giving a brif overview of why these above issues and points are
>>unfounded. I won't hold my breath.
>
>Please, Ray, give him an opportunity to respond to my request that he
>classify _Australopithecus afarensis_ unambiguously as either an ape or
>a human with reference to various parts of the skeleton.
>
>-- Herb Huston

 Okay, you've got me there. Lionel, Herb has priority. Answer him first,
then some of the other problems, then mine. (I'm giving you the benefit of
the doubt here that you intend to answer criticisms...)


Sincerely,

Ray Ingles                  || The above opinions are probably
                            || not those of the University of
ingles@engin.umich.edu      || Michigan. Yet.
From: weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener)
Newsgroups: talk.origins
Subject: Re: creationism-explained.gif (part 01/01) [cartoon]
Date: 8 Oct 92 19:06:30 GMT
Reply-To: weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener)
Organization: The Wistar Institute of Anatomy and Biology
In-reply-to: lionel@cs.city.ac.uk (Lionel Tun)

In article <1992Oct8.153721.14742@city.cs>, lionel@cs (Lionel Tun) writes:
>Could someone clever please explain the creationism-explained
>cartoon. Are strings, torches and batteries, dogs and chickens
>meant to equal the earth or what??

Heck, do *you* have a better *SCIENTIFIC* theory of creationism???
-- 
-Matthew P Wiener (weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu)
From: kre@cs.mu.oz.au (Robert Elz)
Subject: Melb - Canberra (and thus Sydney) is down
Organization: Computer Science, University of Melbourne, Australia
Distribution: aus
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 11:45:31 GMT

The megalink between Melbourne and Canberra is down, which effectively
means that Canberra and Sydney are in a little island of their own.

Telecom have been called, no prognosos yet.

kre
QUIT
t.

kre
Newsgroups: aus.netstatus
From: kre@cs.mu.oz.au (Robert Elz)
Subject: Re: Melb - Canberra (and thus Sydney) is down
Summary: Back up
Organization: Computer Science, University of Melbourne, Australia
Distribution: aus
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 11:51:46 GMT

The link was back operating again when I checked immediately after
posting the previous article, no idea what yappened (yet).

kre
From: root@kittyhawk.aero.rmit.OZ.AU (Operator)
Newsgroups: rmit.general,aus.netstatus
Subject: Today's unavailability of kittyhawk.aero.rmit.OZ.AU
Date: 7 Oct 92 07:39:28 GMT
Distribution: aus
Organization: RMIT Computer Centre
NNTP-Posting-Host: kittyhawk.aero.rmit.oz.au

kittyhawk suffered a wierd siezure at approx. 5am today, which wasn't
fixed until 5pm (I wasn't here). I am not sure what caused it, but
I'm looking into it. Meanwhile full appologies to anyone affected
by the "downtime."

-richard
From: daemon@jatz.aarnet.edu.au ()
Newsgroups: aus.netstatus
Subject: Deakin off air (thurs 15th)
Date: 15 Oct 1992 05:55:48 GMT
Organization: Australian Academic and Research Network (AARNet)
Reply-To: Douglas Ray <ray@ariel.ucs.unimelb.EDU.AU>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 139.130.204.4

deakin university have taken "massive storm damage" and are off the net.
haven't managed to contact technical staff there: "they're out in the mud."

						- douglas ray
						doug@unimelb.edu.au
						networks & comms

Newsgroups: aus.netstatus
From: rossc@extro.ucc.su.OZ.AU (Ross Cartlidge)
Subject: NSW Regional Hub downtime
Organization: Sydney University Computing Service, Sydney, NSW, Australia
Distribution: aus
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 00:37:47 GMT

The NSW regional hub will be down from 6:00pm till
7:00pm on Wednesday Night to replace an applique and a
serial board.

rossc
-- 
________________________________________________________________________
Ross Rodney Cartlidge			    |   rossc@ucc.su.oz.au
Information Services, H08		    |   Phone:     +61 2 6923491
University of Sydney, NSW 2006, Australia   |   FAX:       +61 2 6606557
From: mrp@itd.adelaide.edu.au (Mark Prior)
Newsgroups: aus.netstatus
Subject: sirius.ua.oz.au is not really sirius anymore!
Date: 15 Oct 92 08:36:27 GMT
Organization: The University of Adelaide
NNTP-Posting-Host: huon.itd.adelaide.edu.au

I have moved MHSnet across to huon.itd.adelaide.edu.au (aka
ftp.adelaide.edu.au among other things) but to avoid too much
confusion it thinks it is sirius.ua.oz.au. If you are using
sirius.oz.au as a shortcut for sirius.ucs.adelaide.edu.au then it will
no longer work!

Mark.
From: daemon@jatz.aarnet.edu.au ()
Newsgroups: aus.netstatus
Subject: Deakin update
Date: 15 Oct 1992 06:07:46 GMT
Organization: Australian Academic and Research Network (AARNet)
Reply-To: Douglas Ray <ray@ariel.ucs.unimelb.EDU.AU>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 139.130.204.4

john moorfoot called.  They have water under [over] the machine room floor.
Deakin may be back on net tomorrow, may be next week.

						- douglas ray
						doug@unimelb.edu.au
						networks & comms