From: towfiq@nighthawk.clearpoint.com (Mark Towfiq)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.indian
Subject: Re: A Reply to Kamran's Post on Scientific Religion
Date: 22 Aug 92 17:08:46 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Clearpoint Research Corporation

>>>>> On 18 Aug 92 15:23:29 GMT, rps@cbnewsh.cb.att.com (raj.sharma) said:

mt> ...When considering the four criteria which Kamran has put forth
mt> as the standard to judge whether something is true, namely:

mt> 1) senses,
mt> 2) reason,
mt> 3) scripture,
mt> 4) inspiration

mt>   I think the fundamental point to consider here is that all of these
mt> methods, when used alone, are faulty.  For with the sense, we can
mt> "see" a mirage; we can reason things that are not true, and only
mt> discover it later; since scripture depends on our faculty of reason,
mt> we can mis-interpret it; and our gut feeling can often be predicated
mt> on selfish motives, not a search for the truth.

rs> 	Whenever there is a contradiction, among 1, 2, 3, and 4 above,
rs> 	on a particular matter, it seems [to me] that that matter can't
rs> 	be taken as the truth.

  I completely agree.

rs> 	As was pointed out, "all of these methods when used alone are
rs> 	faulty." This would imply that the truth has to be "percieved"
rs> 	by the "totality" and not by the "parts."

  Exactly.

rs> 	Also 1-4, and everything, depend upon "I" first. Finding out
rs> 	what this "I" really is would be the first step in finding
rs> 	out "The Truth."

  I think you are right.  Baha'u'llah says:

    O SON OF SPIRIT!  My first counsel is this: Possess a pure, kindly and
    radiant heart, that thine may be a sovereignty ancient, imperishable
    and everlasting.
		-- Baha'u'llah, Arabic Hidden Words, #1

rs> 	What if the "I" is false [inherently]? If false, all that
rs> 	depends upon the false "I" would be false.
	
  If I understand you correctly, not having a true understanding of
who we are, i.e. that we are created noble, that our essence is
fundamentally spiritual, not physical, and that we have been created
to carry on an ever-advancing civilization, would be a true barrier to
our progress.
	
mt>   This is where the notion of CHANGE comes in.  For, when you find
mt> a contradiction between any of these four methods, it is then that
mt> the real work begins, as you must go back and re-question the
mt> steps which led to the contradictory conclusions.  In your
mt> example, you must both re-examine your reasoning as well as
mt> re-examine the scriptures, and then proceed to examine your gut
mt> feeling and what you perceive, in the hopes of breaking the
mt> deadlock.

rs> 	All [things including 1-4 above] changes. Isn't it?
	
  What an great observation!  Now that I think about it, our eyesight
changes (sometimes improving, sometimes worsening); our reason usually
improves as we are exposed to more things, and introduced to the field
of logic, etc.; we are able to read more and more of the scriptures
and more are translated into our native tongue (or we learn the
original language), and we may become more or less in touch with our
"gut feelings".  All of these things are changing!

mt> O SON OF MAN!
mt> Bestow My wealth upon My poor,
mt> that in heaven thou mayest draw
mt> from stores of unfading splendour and treasures of imperishable glory.
mt> But by My life!
mt> To offer up thy soul is a more glorious thing couldst thou but see
mt> with Mine eye.

mt>  		-- Baha'u'llah, Arabic Hidden Words, #57

rs> 	This implies giving up of the "I"
rs> 	     and then "The Glory" of "The Truth" is there
rs> 	     as It Always Is.

  Yes!

rs> 	[P.S. Keep posting from Arabic Hidden Words, please.]

  OK! ...
--
Mark Towfiq, towfiq@Microdyne.COM			      H:+1 617 488 2818

O SON OF SPIRIT!  Noble have I created thee, yet thou hast abased thyself.
Rise then unto that for which thou wast created.
		-- Baha'u'llah, Arabic Hidden Words, #22