From: cla02@seq1.keele.ac.uk (R. Wallace)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: Re: MIRacles No. 13
Date: 9 Oct 92 08:57:39 GMT
Organization: Keele University, England

From article <1992Oct8.221157.21164@dcs.qmw.ac.uk>, by pef@dcs.qmw.ac.uk (Panayotis Fouliras; TA PhD):
> In <BvtA00.9Lv@gabriel.keele.ac.uk> cla02@seq1.keele.ac.uk (R. Wallace) writes:

[deletions]
> So,...
>>When I subscribed to this group, I hoped for discussion and information
>>on what was happening in Greece and among Greeks - culture, politics,
>>the economic situation etc. etc. In fact the group has been dominated by
>>rabid propagandists (on all sides, I should say) who have been mangling
>>my subject! Should I just sit back and take it? Or should I say that if
>>people make people on either side make wild statements which can't be
>>substantiated, I'll jump on them. How would you feel if your subject was
>>treated that way?
> 
> Can you speak/read Modern Greek? There is such a group (~70
> mails/day), which is the mainstream group for Greeks. The name?
> 'bit.listserv.hellas'; a real Greek coffee shop!

That's not the point! Yes I do both speak and read Modern Greek, and I
do subscribe to bit.listserv.hellas (though I'll admit to finding Greek
written in Roman characters very hard going indeed; sometimes I have to
write it out in Greek characters before I can understand it!). But that
doesn't justify this group being such a mess. I also subscribe to the
German, Italian, and spanish groups. They seem to be able to have varied
and vigorous discussions on a range of subjects without difficulty (in
general - there are a few cases of bad behaviour) - so why can't the
Greek group do this. Try to understand what I'm saying - I don't blame
all Greeks when the likes of Panos Tamamidis foam at the mouth and
throw tantrums in public. All nations have their burdens to bear! I do
blame them, though, for letting people like that set the tone of the
group and dominate the discussion. 

Not long ago, someone tried to get people to post Greek poetry here. That
was great! - while it lasted. 
> 
>>I do find it very offensive when someone who puts forward a view which I
>>know to be defensible on the basis of the evidence, and which is held by
>>a number of decent sound scholars (even when I disgree with it myself),
>>is abused, insulted, and accused of being biased, anti-Greek, and
>>ignorant.
> 
> Well, if you are refering to A.T.Fear, I dissagree with some of
> the characterizations attributed to him, but I beleive he is
> biased in a more-than-normal degree. At the very end give
> Greeks the benifit of the doubt...

No I wasn't referring to Andy Fear, who can look after himself (though I
don't think you can claim that everyone who disagrees with you is
biased - though you may say that they are wrong). But I have been
accused myself of being anti-Greek, and biased, and knowing not even the
most elementary facts about ancient history. Yet I have always tried to
be reasonable, polite (though I will confess to moments of irritation),
and responsive to other people's views. What do people who throw these
wild accusations about hope to achieve? Do they think it will persuade
me? Or other people? Or is it just psychotherapy? Vigorous and
hard-hitting argument is one thing, but personal abuse suggests lack of
confidence in the strength of your arguments. Why? The Greeks have a very
good case.

But to get back to the main point, I don't think any user has the right
to say that the group should be restricted to other users of the same
kind. You cannot assume that everyone who reads this group is like you.
In fact, in response to my original posting I have already had mail
messages from people who are both interested and well informed. I have
learned things I didn't know before. So the posting was appropriate. I
rest my case. 

[deletions]
> 
> 
> PS If you come down to London for a weekend, why not discuss
> all this over a cup of coffee (or a glass of wine/beer)?

I may just take you up on that one day, Panayotis!
> 
> --

Richard Wallace
Xref: sparky soc.culture.greek:9583 soc.culture.yugoslavia:9072 soc.culture.bulgaria:1500