HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: sivaram@plains.NoDak.edu (Sivaram Hariharan )
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Continuing on Morris
Date: 29 Sep 92 05:06:22 GMT
Article-I.D.: plains.20779
Organization: North Dakota Higher Education Computing Network

In his book, "Season of Dreams", Twins manager TK says that his
acquisition of the Horse in 91 was primarily due to Jack's ability to
log in a lot of innings in the stretch. Going down the stretch,
as the season takes its toll of pitchers' arms, this veteran
only gets better and towards the close, he just gets stronger.

If a manager has a work horse who can  log a lot of innings
it really takes away a lot of pressure from the others in
the rotation. Just ask Scott Erickson and Tapani as to how
they felt having the Horse around them in 1991.

Morris's contract with the Twins was based on the number of
innings that he pitched.

Morris might not have stuff like a Clemmens, but he has got a
lot of heart and is a fierce competetor and a complete war
horse. Added to this his will to win and his ability to raise
his performance in big games. The Jays really need a guy like
Morris who does NOT CHOKE in big games as the Jays are used to.

After Game-6 in the 91 WS, when the Twins tied the series 3-3
,  TK was a confident manager in the dugout with the ball
in locker of the  Horse for game-7 and what a hell of a 
pitching performance by the "Fossil" that was.

S.H
Win or lose, Forever Twins
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer)
Subject: Re: AL Rookie of Year Award?
Organization: Cornell Univ. CS Dept, Ithaca NY 14853
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 16:52:00 GMT

In article <joeb.718377962@cserver> joeb@cserver.plexus.com (Joe Brotz) writes:
>
>IMO, it would be hard for anyone to produce any truly meaningful 
>statistics to measure the impact of a team's running game. Here are
>my observations of the running game's affect in a baseball game
>(obvious ones anyway):

May be difficult to measure the indirect effects directly.

But how about using the RC formula?  I believe the Brewers outscored
their simple RC prediction by about 80 runs this year?  It might be
reasonable to assume that is due to their running game.

>  4) pressure on pitcher causing bad pitches (this one could  
>     have a HUGH impact, but how do you measure it?) 
>  7) extra pressure on the catcher (takes his mind off of calling
>     the game??)
>  8) putting infielders out of position when they have to cover
>     the attempted stolen base (turns an out into a hit).

Of course, these three might affect the OBP and SLG.  But I suspect
they are also relatively minor.

(4) While that kind of pressure clearly bothers *some* pitchers, I
don't know how widespread an effect it is.  The biggest difference is
between pitching from the stretch and pitching from a windup.  And
even with slow baserunners, most pitchers will go from the stretch
with runners on base.  Making it a function of OBP more than speed.

(7) seems silly to me.  Calling a game is a logical/analytical
exercise.  I don't see why pressure should short-circuit the catcher's
thought processes.  And any catcher who *does* get that rattled by
basestealers probably won't last long.

(8) certainly results in extra hits, but it also takes some away.  How
many line-drives up the middle are turned into easy DPs each year?
The net effect is probably positive, but is it that big a deal?

I suspect that by far the biggest effect that team speed has on
offense is that a fast runner is more advanceable.  I would be
surprised if Milwaukee didn't take an extraordinary number of extra
bases this year.

Cheers,
-Valentine
-- 
Make outs, not walks!					tedward@cs.cornell.edu
Clemens four Cy Young!
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: usenet@oracle.us.oracle.com (Oracle News Poster)
Subject: Re: Expos logo
Organization: Oracle Corp., Redwood Shores CA
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 15:05:42 GMT
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by an unauthenticated user
              at Oracle Corporation.  The opinions expressed are those
              of the user and not necessarily those of Oracle.

	I have been working in the Expos front offices since June, so I can 
give you the official meaning of the logo and name:

About the logo:
"The Expos logo is composed of three letters, the largest of which is the
overall stylized "M" for Montreal. Represented in the lower left of the
logo is a lower case "e" for expos and on the righthand side of the logo,
in blue, is the letter "b" for baseball."

About the name of the team:
"When Montreal's application for a National League franchise was accepted
in 1968, it was on the heels of the 1967 World's Fair held in this city.
The fair was commonly known as EXPO '67. The team was subsequently named
EXPOS in memory of this fair that had served to bring international
attention to the city of Montreal."

The squiggly thing over the "E" is a French accent symbol, but since I
don't know French at all, I can't help much.

-Ari Kaplan
akaplan@us.oracle.com
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer)
Subject: Re: Jack is a winner
Organization: Cornell Univ. CS Dept, Ithaca NY 14853
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 07:12:14 GMT

In article <1aauhuINNe8m@uwm.edu> paul@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Paul R Krueger) writes:
>   
>   That game really didn't mean squat. The Jays weren't really in trouble
>   yet. However, on Sunday the Jays were in trouble 'cause the Brewhas had
>   closed to within two. Morris pitched six shutout innings. Sounds like a
>   winner to me.

If Morris is so great at pitching to the score, why didn't he toss the
shutout in the previous game, and allow the 4 runs in the blowout?
Then he would have two wins instead of just the one.  Oh, I'm sorry.
The first one didn't matter, because the Brewers weren't quite so
close...

I don't deny that Morris has pitched solidly (even well?) the last
couple of months.  But he *hasn't* "pitched to the score" as far as I
can tell.  No more so than any pitcher does.  Sure, he was throwing
strikes during the blowout.  But *all* pitchers do that.  At least all
of those pitchers who have decent enough stuff that they can do it
without getting *totally* blown out of the water.  It's hardly
something that deserves lavish praise.

>   Also, he pitched that game on three days rest so Gaston could finalize
>   his playoff rotation. Guess who's pitching in game one? That's right,
>   it's the winner!!

We'll see how it goes.  Whether he pitches well, or gives up an early
lead like he was doing practically ever game early in the season.  In
the post season facing Oakland, you can't count on late-inning heroics
by your teammates to pull your nuts out of the fire.

Cheers,
-Valentine
-- 
Make outs, not walks!					tedward@cs.cornell.edu
Clemens four Cy Young!
From: atchison@lyre.cis.ohio-state.edu (Mark Atchison)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: RG's 1992 Tribe Front Office Report Card
Date: 5 Oct 92 22:05:49 GMT
Organization: The Ohio State University Dept. of Computer and Info. Science

In article <1992Oct5.214925.15391@news.iastate.edu> sckelm@iastate.edu (Steven C Kelm) writes:
>In article <5OCT199215344050@ariel.lerc.nasa.gov> ecaxron@ariel.lerc.nasa.gov (Ron Graham) writes:>
>>o	Trade of minor-league pitchers Oscar Munoz and Curtis Leskanic
>>	to Minnesota for 1B Paul Sorrento - A
>>
>>This trade receives the highest grade available, for the following reasons:
>>(1) Kent Hrbek went on the DL within *hours* after the deal.
>
>What's your point?
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Just the sweet irony of somebody else getting screwed instead of us.

wahoo!
-- 
_______________________________________________________________________________
 Mark Atchison, a.k.a. <atchison@cis.ohio-state.edu>; Graduate Student in the
Computer Science Dept, THE Ohio State University (NOT an Ohio State University)
		Any plagiarisms seen above are not my own...
From: ewilts@galaxy.gov.bc.ca (Ed Wilts)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Bonds "choke"?
Date: 5 Oct 92 12:35:08 -0700
Reply-To: EWILTS@GALAXY.GOV.BC.CA
Organization: BC Systems Corporation

In article <1992Oct5.144730.18495@odin.corp.sgi.com>, kubey@sgi.com (Ken Kubey) writes:
> In article <1992Oct4.214410.23833@midway.uchicago.edu> thf2@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>>Or could it be, just maybe, that if you take 270 players and have them
>>face the top pitching staffs in the league in short series there is
>>a good random chance that two of them will go 0 for 16?
> 
> Sure.  Note that we are really talking about 0-20.
> Anyone know Gene Tenace's overall BA for the years in question?  
> 
> If my calculator and brain are working right, the chance of a .300 hitter
> going 0-20 is 0.000798 or 0.0798%.

I disagree.  A .300 hitter is calculated against all pitchers that he's faced,
not the pitchers he's seeing in the championships.  I believe that it's a fair
guess to claim that the pitching in the LCS and World Series is significantly
better than during the regular season, hence a .300 batter is not as likely to
maintain his .300.

-- 

Ed Wilts, BC Systems Corp., 4000 Seymour Place, Victoria, B.C., Canada, V8X 4S8
EWilts@Galaxy.Gov.BC.CA   |   Ed.Wilts@BCSystems.Gov.BC.CA   |   (604) 389-3430
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: stlouis@unixg.ubc.ca (Phill St. Louis)
Subject: Morris: more fuel for this debate
Originator: stlouis@unixg.ubc.ca
Organization: University of British Columbia, Vancouver, B.C., Canada
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 17:38:58 GMT

In Sunday's game, Morris pitched 4+ innings and then had to sit 2 hours
for a rain delay.  He had a 9-run lead at the time (but why penalize him
for this??).  He returned to finish the 5th and then pitched the 6th, giving
up 0 runs, 0 ERs, 3 hits and 1 walk.  Morris wins his 20th and he did it in
New York.  His ERA is now 3.99.

Has anyone noticed that Morris has only been allowing a BA of .204 at home?
The Skydome is a hitters ballpark and he is allowing only .204!!  This is
#1 in the League among pitchers who were on opening-day American League ML 
rosters for.  Eldred is slightly better at home in his partial season.
Does anyone have Morris' W-L and ERA breakdowns at home and away.  Last year,
he was much better at home with 13 of his 18 wins coming at the MetroDome.

Jack is in the top ten in BA against against righty hitting.  Last year, he
was behind only Erickson in this category.  Guzman was also better, but for
half a year.

Should the Jays make the playoffs, Morris is candidate #1 to be starting Game 1
at the Skydome.  Noone else has as good a record as Morris at the Skydome.

All comments are welcome.  If you want you can fill in his away BA and his
his BA vs. lefty batters.  Morris is not a very hittable pitcher and this is
what makes him one of the best pitchers.  

Phill

Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: niguma@ug.cs.dal.ca (Gordon Niguma)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Blue Jays vs. A's
Date: 4 Oct 92 16:36:23 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Math, Stats & CS, Dalhousie University, Halifax, NS, Canada


   Well the rematch between the J's and A's is here, both clubs are considerably
changed since the 1989 duel, but I'd bet there's still some bad blood between
them. I heard from an A's announcer that the A's would have rather faced the
Jay's than the Brewers; they think the Jay's have some sort of phobia against
them.
   This year I believe the Jays should be slight favorites in the championship
series as their forte is based around what wins short series: three great 
starting pitchers in Morris, Guzman and Cone. Their bullpen also revolves around
two main guys, Ward and Henke and this combination could prove to be as Nasty
as the Reds in 1990 WS. The A's have managed to get to the postseason by a
superb bench with unknowns like Bordick, Blankenship, Browne and Parrett leading
the way. Unfortunately for LaRussa, depth strength is reduced in postseason
play and frontline talent is magnified.
   So let's look at position players: who's better?

   C: Steinbach vs. Borders-  The edge is clear, but not HUGE, to Steinbach.
  1B: McGwire vs. Olerud- Once again, both players are good but McGwire is 
      the better product. Another in favor of Oakland.
  2B: Bordick vs. Alomar- No contest, Roberto hands down. Although Bordick's
      put up a great year, I remain a bit skeptical of how good a player he 
      really is. Alomar wins anyways.
  3B: Lansford vs. Gruber- I have trouble believing anyone can be worse than
      Gruber. Edge Oakland.
  SS:
From: bittle@niktow.canisius.edu (Jason Bittle)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: captured off rec.humor.funny...
Date: 29 Sep 92 15:07:36 GMT
Organization: Canisius College, Buffalo NY. 14208

-=-=-=-=-

According to the Chicago Tribune, the following statistic was
given in the press notes for the June 7 Chicago-Oakland game:

The Oakland Athletics are 32-0 in games in which they have scored more
runs than their opponents.


-- 
ciao,                             
Jason Bittle (bittle@niktow.canisius.edu) 
(a.k.a. Pillsbury Dough Boy )
From: mike.walker@canrem.com (mike walker)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: al rookie of year awa
Date: 4 Oct 92 06:50:58 GMT
Reply-To: "mike walker" <mike.walker@canrem.com>
Distribution: rec
Organization: Canada Remote Systems


SI>In <1992Sep24.170613.23623@osf.org> ron@osf.org (Ron Birnbaum) writes:

>In article <1992Sep24.005557.20452@odin.corp.sgi.com>, dickh@tribe.esd.sgi.com (Dick Harkness) writes:
>|>
>|> |
>|> |> >Listach is playing for a contender, point to him.
>|> |>
>|> |> Not in my book.  What is this fetish people have with rewarding players for
>|> |> what their teammates are doing?  What possible difference can it make to who
>|> |> is the best rookie this year?
>|> |

I think it makes a big difference. Listach is playing under great
pressure, and has to play for team wins. Lofton can take all the risks
he wants, both on the basepaths and defensively, and play for his own
stats. I think it makes a big difference overall. . . Mike
---
 ~ DeLuxe} 1.12 #165 ~ . . . . . . mike.walker@canrem.com (Mike Walker)
--
Canada Remote Systems  - Toronto, Ontario
World's Largest PCBOARD System - 416-629-7000/629-7044
From: paul@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Paul R Krueger)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: AL Rookie of Year Award?
Date: 30 Sep 1992 02:59:21 GMT
Organization: Computing Services Division, University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.89.7.4

In article <1992Sep29.194933.23471@news2.cis.umn.edu> thornley@milli.cs.umn.edu (David H. Thornley) writes:
>First, what do you mean by winning 20+ games on baserunning?  You can't mean
>that they won 20 more games than they would have if they didn't run bases (or
>if they ran like I do), since all teams do that.  Do you mean something like
>20 more games than if they ran like the Red Sox?
>
>Second, can you mention a few games?  If you are confident that the running
>game has won 20 games, you must have seen a few.
    
    They haven't won 20+ games just by the virtue of their running, but out
    of their 80-some wins, in at least 50 I'd say, baserunning has played a
    big part. There have been several ways; stealing a base, taking an extra
    base when it didn't seem likely, forcing mental or physical errors by the
    other team when Milwaukee has pressured them into making a good throw, 
    making the opposing pitcher forget about the hitter, etc...

    Generally, the Brewers baserunning has been very agressive and very smart
    with the exception of Dante Bichette. Now maybe it hasn't won 20 games
    directly, but indirectly there have been several. And if you take all of
    Milwaukee's offensive attributes and keep them the same except for the
    baserunning part, and trade that for Boston's baserunning ability, then
    yeah, I think they'd be about 20 games worse.

    --salty



Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: jle@world.std.com (Joe M Leonard)
Subject: I think we should wait with Baerga
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 16:37:36 GMT

Before we go calling Baerga the best of anything, perhape we should
wait a few years.  Granted, he's one of the best new guys comming
along, but he's had one good year...  As I recall, Whitaker came up
in '75, and has been pretty good since then.  When Baerga's had his
good years over the next few, then we can look at him more objectively...

Joe Leonard
jle@world.std.com
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: zurawski@cbnewse.cb.att.com (lawrence.w.zurawski)
Subject: Re: AL ROY - Cal Eldred?
Organization: AT&T
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 14:56:12 GMT

In article <joeb.717873107@cserver>, joeb@cserver.plexus.com (Joe Brotz) writes:
> 
> So the big question is this, How much time do you have
> to put in to be a legitimate contender? I know there's no official 

McCovey won the NL ROY in '59 by putting up some awesome numbers over
about a third of a season.  Can't think of any other cases, though.

Larry Zurawski
zurawski@ihlpm.att.com



Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: claudius@leland.Stanford.EDU (Nelson Lu)
Subject: Re: RC/MLV Study
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Distribution: na
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 92 17:01:41 GMT

In article <1992Oct4.135308.26176@cbnewsh.cb.att.com> josh@cbnewsh.cb.att.com (joshua.h.rosenbluth) writes:
>Here are some notes on a study in progress comparing Marginal Lineup Value (MLV)
>to Runs Created per Out (RC/Out) for evaluating offensive individual
>contribution:
>
>The results to date are:
>
>   *  RC/Out overestimates value.  A good first-order approximation
>      is take .79*RC Value to get MLV.
>
>   *  RC/Out's overestimation decreases as a player's SLG-to-OBP ratio
>      increases.  That is, if you have two guys with the same RC/Out,
>      one of which is a slugger and the other is an on-base guy, the RC
>      prediction, based on surrounding a player with 8 clones, does a better
>      job for the slugger (Why?  What does this mean?).

Both of these points can be explained in that I believe MLV undervalues walks
and OBP on the whole.  In addition, when you are using this model, as I was
earlier, of taking a player out and substitute a replacement player, there are
two points of caveat:

1.	DON'T use the "average" given in Baseball Weekly, which assumes the
	player plays 162 games.  You have to scale down to the player's actual
	playing time.

2.	Even that undervalues a good player (particular one with a good OBP).
	A good player will get himself and his teammates more plate
	appearances, and therefore more runs.  Just taking his stats out and
	inserting average stats will then undervalue him somewhat.  (I am not
	sure how much, though.)
>
>   *  The Second order adjustment for the above effect produces:
>      MLV = .79*RC Value + 12*SLG/OBP - 15

One thing: OBP gets you more plate appearances; SLG doesn't; therefore, there
is some effect that causes their contributions to be unequal.
>
>   *  All of the predicted 92 MLVs (data attached) were within 2 runs of
>      the actual MLV except for Griffey, Taratabull and Thomas.  These
>      players all have above average SLG-to-OBP ratios and very high (>.38)
>      OBP.  That is, they are great hitters.  Also, the predicted MLVs are
>      still about 1 to 2 runs too high for players with OBPs > .38 and
>      below average SLG-to-OBP ratios.

But what do you expect?  When you use the method from which MLV is derived in
this study, MLV will fit to a hilt.  (If it doesn't, then there is something
wrong with your math. :-))  But that doesn't mean that it valued the players
correctly.

>   *  I didn't believe Dave's comments about MLV and RC/Out at first, but
>      I'm pretty much convinced now.

Not so fast.  I still think that MLV undervalues good hitters, especially ones
who walk a lot and/or have a high OBP.  RC/Out might *overvalue* those players,
but I don't think the books are closed on this one yet.

===============================================================================
GO CALIFORNIA ANGELS!
===============================================================================
Nelson Lu (claudius@leland.stanford.edu)
From: zuhars@madrone.eecs.ucdavis.edu (Gary Didi Seven Huckabay)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Sheffield is NL MVP
Date: 28 Sep 92 17:03:41 GMT
Organization: Lance Blankenship Appreciation Society (BB Division)

In article <17596@ucdavis.ucdavis.edu> fzchen@othello.ucdavis.edu writes:
>>And, since OBP is more valuable than SLG, Caminiti's higher OBP wins out.
>
>This is why I quit sabremetrics.  Who says OBP is more important than 
>SLG???!!!  I think Caminiti vs. Pendleton is simple.  Poll the GM's and
>managers of both leagues and ask who they would want on their team if
>either could be had at the same salary...Caminiti.  Not!
>
>-MeatHead

Look, MeatHead, you can test your theories against statheads right in
your hometown of Davis.  Just hit 'r', and say you want to play in the
1992-93 Davis Tabletop Baseball League.  It has stat heads and RBI
heads galore in it.

Care to guess who usually gets CREAMED?

Second of all, what makes you think that GMs know everything about
player value?  Dal Maxvill isn't my idea of a good yardstick to
measure baseball knowledge against.  Neither is Jim Frey, Sal Bando,
or several other past and present GMs. 

Incompetence in the workplace isn't limited to outside baseball.  It
runs rampant in front offices.

If you think you really know much more than the StatHeads, then put
your money where your mouth is, and try managing and general managing
a team against me, and several other statheads.  The draft is on
Halloween, and the season (using PtP 4.0 for the PC) run until about
March or so.  The time commitment isn't all that big.

Of course, it's "Just a simulation", so you can use that as an excuse
when you're 28-74.

In REAL life, of course, your team of Puckett, Carter, Fielder, and
Bell would certainly maim the team of Rickey, Tartabull, Olerud, and
Downing.

Bet on it.

C'mon.... make the call.  Or are you AFRAID of something?

(Obviously, I'm not above childish prodding in an attempt to expand
our league.  Replay via mail.  It's fun.  Nothing to lose, and
everyone involved has a good time, and are nice people.)

Except me.  :-)


-- 
*    Gary Huckabay   * "I hope Atlanta does.  The A's have a chance of    *
* "Proud NOT to have *  beating them, since they don't walk much, and     *
*  a wacky sitcom on *  rely heavily on lefty pitching." "But Canseco's   *
*     network TV."   *  gone.  Gary?!  Are you Ok?  You want me to call...*
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: claudius@leland.Stanford.EDU (Nelson Lu)
Subject: Re: Sheffield is NL MVP
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 92 05:22:45 GMT

In article <1992Sep30.144756.1661@island.COM> fester@island.COM (Mike Fester) writes:

>You might want to take a look at this year's AL, before you flame this guy.

>For confirmation, see this year's Detroit and Baltimore teams.

>Baltimore .342 OBP, .402 SLG, 651 runs
>Detroit   .336 OBP, .407 SLG, 724 runs

Mike, I think we have gone through this before.  Baltimore has a horrible
lineup construction.  Detroit has a pretty good one.  Satisfied?

Believe me, you can make a lineup with Frank Thomas, Barry Bonds, and
Darren Daulton low-scoring by batting them 6th, 7th, and 8th respectively.

===============================================================================
GO CALIFORNIA ANGELS!
===============================================================================
Nelson Lu (claudius@leland.stanford.edu)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball