From: tgt33358@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Thanatos)
Subject: Re: Vampire and GURPS
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 02:34:02 GMT
Keywords: Vampire, GURPS, stereotypes

In article <davis.721941272@cwis> davis@cwis.unomaha.edu (James J Davis) writes:
>durrant@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (unknown) writes:
>
>The stereotyping goes beyond the clans.  It's in clans, "alignment" (I forget
>the word they use for it) and humanity.  And, in the overall world outlook.
>You can create your own mechanics, I suppose, GURPS helps you with that a lot
>more than Storyteller.  Besides, creating more clans is simply creating more
>stereotypes.  Not very useful, in itself, is it?
>since the mechanics it has are not meshing well to begin with.
"Archetypes" are an integral part of storytelling (lowercase s).  Read the 
quote before the section.  It's Carl Jung, the Father of Archetypes.  In 
narratives, we tend to pigeonhole.  As much as we hate it, the basic elements
of a story tend to stereotype so that -what-is-different- shines through.
Archetypes, as seen in V:TM, are optional.  They provide a springboard for
characterization.  In the clear majority, good and evil are irrelevant.  
Archetypes deal with attitudes, and how they sculpt actions, not chain that
bind good characterization.  That's the whole idea of nature and demeanor.
Everyone sees the demeanor.  It's what is on the _outside._  Nature is 
what you are in moments of crisis, when the facade is lifted.  Such moments
of crisis are an integral part of storytelling (both kinds) and help people
define their characters.  They help young RP's to get an idea, and they 
help old as well.  It's a bit like costuming, I'd imagine.  If someone 
walked out on stage, naked, and spoke the "St. Crispin's Day" speech, someone
would eventually respond, "Henry V, right?"  With a costume, setting and
characterization come easier, as a frame of reference has been established.
	"Clans."  Clans, Clans, Clans.  V:TM makes no attempt to cover up its
Eurocentric bias, and there is great significance in the number 13 to a 
Western mindset.  The most important was the 13 tribes of Israel, but there 
are others.  Vampires are greatly spiritual, needing to expound their 
base of perceptions once the weight of mortality has been lifted.  It is 
_possible_ for vampires to break the Clan structure, but it was created 
for mutual protection during the inquisition, to protect themselves and 
to allow kindred to create power bases.  I have no problem, since it is the 
modern conception to bring down those stereotypes, which is one of the 
most important fronts in the Jyhad. 
	Humanity?  What's wrong with it? 
>
>Christine, you just don't seem to understand.  You can do that in any system.
>But, other games also come with a good system behind them.  I find your points
>about roleplaying true, yet irrelevant.  I consider the same things you are 
>speaking of *every* time I play Hero.  Systems, in themselves, contribute very
>little to roleplaying directly.  Looks at what Storyteller contributes: a clan
>system that would be best ignored, an 'alignment' system that would be best
>ignored, and a humanity system that makes no sense.  GURPS, on the other hand,
>comes with a mental disadvantage system that covers most of the roleplaying
>aspects that you'd want to handle in the mechanics.  I'd say GURPS contributed
>more than Storyteller, since Storyteller is more interested in pigeonholing.

I have to disagree with you on the assertion that a system has very little
to do with roleplaying.  The quality of characters in my CHAMPS campaign
changed because combat too SOOOOOO long to resolve.  No longer were 
skills picked up, in place of BIG GUNS.  How my characters played made a 
great deal in what I presented them.  Whereas in Vampire, sometimes we go 
for hours, never touching a die, most of the night in Champs was spent.
wasted in one combat a night.   The patheticness of the combat system
in Vampire makes 1) combat less appeaing and 2) roleplaying more important.
Nothing wrong with these two.  
>


-- 
I don't mind being the smartest	    / Thanatos, DeathUrge, Master of Unknown
man in the world...I just wish it   \ Time and Space tgt33358@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu 
wasn't this one...	       	    / It's a Zen thing... 
	-Ozymandias 		    \	 you wouldn't understand...  
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