From: fayegh@cs.ubc.ca (David Fayegh)
Subject: Re: Traditional And Historical ... Barbarism...
Organization: Computer Science, University of B.C., Vancouver, B.C., Canada
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 92 08:19:02 GMT

han@anadolu.michigan.com (hasan.b.mutlu) writes:

><1992Aug14.110311.28041@cs.ubc.ca>
>fayegh@cs.ubc.ca (David Fayegh)

 . . .
>>>states will acquire nuclear weapons? How about sharing? They even 
 . . .
>>Tough questions ...
>Well, historical evidence indicates that these are not new developments. 

True.

>On the contrary, they are deeply rooted cultural truisms.

I disagree.
How do you define ``culture'' and why do you think that 
the desire to possess a nuclear arsenal is `culturally self evident'?.

>>(1) What humanity needs is not more nuclear weapons, but the adaptation
>>of environmentally-sound technologies for civilian nuclear power generation
>>and utilization.  How about sharing now?

>In that, your promises sound a lot more like traditional Marxist analysis.

No "promises" were intended. I was just pointing to the desperate need for the
diversion of all (such) military technologies to their civilian equivalents.

How many schools can you build and staff with the money invested/spent in/on
building, maintaining, and disposing of one single nuclear warhead?
Any `arithmeticians' out there?  

Can you imagine the consequences of adapting such `diversion policies', 
world-wide, for, say, 25 years?.  

>>(2) Hypocrisy with a dash of paranoia!?  But then what else is new?  :-) 
>>(3) Give a character like ``chussain'' an A-bomb and he will kill a whole
>>bunch of people with it. 

>Thus, conflicts perpetuate forever, as fate is reduced to unalterable
>conditions surrounding one's birth, like one's skin color, native
>tongue and ethnic identity.

 ... conflicts continue as long `we', both as individuals, and as part of
a larger ``group'' (be it ethnic, religious, etc.),  are _not_ willing 
to recognize and solve the ``real'' problems and blindly continue to 
perpetuate `hate' under the facade of ethnic, religious, political, ..., 
ethnocentrism, fanaticism, ``xxxx-ism', etc..

This type of ``behavior'' (by both individuals and ``nation-states'') 
and the resulting effects on one's surroundings has very little to do 
with "fate".  Repetitious `historical' review of `barbarism' alone 
contributes very little if the goal is to seek _equitable solutions_. 
 . . .
>>Well, if "the future is not what it used to be", then `the past is not
>>what it will be'! ;-)  Any way you slice it, you are left without the 
>>future or the past. So lets focus on the ``here-and-now'' domain for 
>>a bit.

>But what makes you think that it will work this time in 'here-and-now'
>domain?

Because we can only ``work'' here-and-now.  One doesn't solve problems
by just remembering the past and fantasizing about the future. 
 . . .
>>With all honesty, I can't quite figure out what it is that you are 
>>disagreeing with ;-). 

>That you can create your own society.

Again, an `individual' can not "create" his/her own society. 
`Collectively', however, `nation-states' can change the _given_ conditions
governing `life' on this fragile planet. `Individually', one can
only change oneself and certain aspects of one's immediate 
environment.

>>Now, if activism is to be used to induce awareness
>>about a noble cause and advance it through equitable and non-violent
>>methods, then I would be the first to join without any hesitation.
>>As you have stated above, "activism can be used in many areas"; 
 . . .(*)
>Fine. However, if a movement is deprived of a philosophy, mere
>taking to the streets can not create a lasting effect. 

Right ... that's why I wrote ((*) above):

>>deciding on the cause and the means used to advance such causes
>>are the difficult issues that need to be addressed by the accountable 
>>activists or potential activists. 
 . . .
>>Why do you feel/think that way? How do you perceive your own "self-image"?
>Who gives a thunder?

I wouldn't have asked otherwise.

>>>Ideas and opinions should appear in black and white, because the pen
>>>is the mightiest of all weapons. Nothing can beat the power of the

>>I disagree: Ideas, opinions, history, traditions, etc. are _not_ black
>>and white and hence the pen that only highlights "black and white" is 
>>a pen that should not be taken seriously under most circumstances.
>>It all depends on what the "written word" is trying to convey. 
>>Just because someone or group put their fingers
>>on the keyboards (or pen on paper) does not necessarily make the result
>>`mighty', noble, etc., and worthy of adaptation and propagation. It is
>>the ``content'' of the activist's message that is important. 

>You missed the point. Ideas and opinions should appear 'in' black and white;
>they are not necessarily black and white. See above.
 . . .
>>I look forward to that time. And in the mean time ... back to work :-)
>Sorry, it is just a matter of priority.

Fine, but there is no need to be "Sorry" :-). I really do have to get back
to ``work'' ;-).
 . . .
>>It is?  What is my "favorite cause" and who is my "favorite fundrasing star"?
>>Please elaborate.  

>Probably the best paradigm of the 'new world order' "thing" is represented
>by the Disney theme parks. The mouse that roars billions in cash receipts
>becomes the voice of a new global generation that wears the same designer
>jeans in Lisbon and Lima, watches the same MTV in Los Angeles and Cairo,
>and carries an instant conversation through personal computer bulletin
>boards in Istanbul and Tokyo.

The paradigm referred to as the "'new world order'" is an `old' concept
that is now being `re-exploited' for `short-term benefits' by many ...
But then what else is new?
 . . .
>>Hmmm ... may be the problem is that we don't have common definitions
>>for "nation-states" and "`global village'. Shall we try again? 

>The 21st Century unfolds at such a blinding pace that we do not even
>yet have a vocabulary to correctly identify the emerging social forms.

How true ... Shall we try to come up with a protocol for cooperation
rather than what we have been doing :-). What protocol do you suggest?
 . . .
>>As for ideas, I am willing to share to
>>the best of my ability until it becomes an obsession ...

>Play fair. Live a balanced life - learn some and think some and
>draw and paint and sing and dance and play and work every day
>some.

Right on, so lets ... live and let live plus much much more ... right?

Now that we have thought a few seconds or less about all the above
and some more, shall we change the Subject line to something more 
appropriate please? 

>Hasan B-) Mutlu

Take care for now, --df
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