HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
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Date:         Sat, 21 Nov 1992 14:16:00 EST
From:         Volunteers in Technical Assistance <VITA@GMUVAX.BITNET>
Subject:      An invitation.

Dear Subscriber,

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Date:         Sun, 15 Nov 1992 22:02:44 -0500
From:         PMUZILA@MACALSTR.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Slovak-Hungarian Relations

Dear Mr.Pannon,
        I took the change of the subject to "S-H Relations" as a sign of
challenge to stop attacking or blaming each other's country or nation, and
being constructive about the future relations between Slovakia and Hungary.
        One thing that I was taught in that college was to accept a person that
is arguing with you with full RESPECT even if you do not agree with what she or
he is saying. You did not learned it, even after I expressed it so clearly in
the previous letter. I did not write that letter with intention of attacking
you as a person (you should have noticed that the letter was not writen only
to you but also to all other sides)

        I was very with the way you reacted. I asked you (all of you!!!) to
argue with RESPECT to each other without offending each other, and you used
offensive words in the first letter you wrote. ("...sensitive flowerchild....
...sensitive Patrik....destined for United World...")

        I always tryed to argue with respect to whom I am talking. You call me
sensitive, but I have to tell you that I would be much happier if the world was
full of sensitive people rather than full of hard and arogant individuals.
(Please do not take this sentence as offence since it is not directed at you)

Now I will mention some facts:

>...Oh, I'm sooo sorry !
>...You ought to keep your advice  before preaching it to others.

I can tell you honestly that I really thought for a long time about what you
wrote before writing the reply. I would like to ask you (and now it's not matter
of sensitivity) whether you ment your appology seriously. As I understood your
spelling, you meant it sarcastically. Now I really want you to think about it!

>probably you should consider a refund of your tution

        The tution of 35.000 dollars/year was paid by Italian, British,
Canadian government and by company Mercedes Benz. I hope you understand why I
cannot ask for that refund, and even if I paid it I would not do it. But this
is very irrelevant to the topic we are discussing in this list. We shall
probably eliminate these kind of personal questions in our letters by writing
them dirrectly to the author and not throught the list. (I can give you my
e-mail address if you are interested in learning more about this college or my
backround.)
                                        Patrik Muzila
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.slovak-l
From: Robert Cox <rcox@convex.UUCP>
Subject: Matthew of Trencin, Samo, and Louis Kossuth
Originator: rcox@mozart.convex.com
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 14:40:07 GMT
Reply-To: rcox@convex.UUCP (Robert Cox)
Organization: Engineering, CONVEX Computer Corp., Richardson, Tx., USA
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

Hmm, interesting.  It seems that Matthew of Trencin is somewhat like 
Samo.  Here is another ruler of Slovaks who is not of Slovak descent,
but advances the Slovak cause, and is therefore "adopted" by the 
Slovaks as one of them, in some sense.  Does this seem right? 

Another question that Joe Pannon raised was about the ethnicity of 
Louis Kossuth.  Here is an extract from Yurchak's book:

The ill-fated figure that led this fight against the Slovaks, and against
the Croats and Serbs, in Hungary was Louis Kossuth (1802-1894), a Slovak
renegade.  He was born of Slovak zeman stock in the heart of Slovakia 
in Ko's~uty near St. Matin-on-the-Turiec.  He had an uncle who was a 
minor Slovak poet, and all the others of the family bearing the Kossuth 
name were sincere Slovaks.  But for all this, Louis Kossuth proved "more
Magyar than the Magyars themselves." 

Anyone have any thoughts on this? 

A short personal note.  There is a statue of Kossuth on the square next
my alma mater.  Kossuth has his hand raised in victory.  It seems that 
as a prank every year, some student would climb to the top of the statue
and place a beer can in the Maygar patriot's raised hand.  Then it seemed
that Kossuth was more interested in leading the students on to party, 
rather than to lead the Magyars on to victory.  But somehow the can would
always eventually disappear.  I suppose the old nationalist still has his
admirers!

To be fair to Kossuth, he was quoted in later life as saying: 

"I implore my Magyar, Slav, and Romanian brethren to pull a veil over 
the past and reach out to each other in the hand of brotherhood." 

Perhaps idealistic, but well-worth meditating on. 

						-- Robert Cox 
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.slovak-l
Date:         Sun, 15 Nov 1992 08:55:00 EST
From:         JIRI1@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU
Subject:      Minorities

All whon are concerned with the FUTURE Slovakia and the welfare of the
Slovak people might be best focussing on how to SOLVE problems and not how to
aggravate them,make them worse...
I have a simple request:
    PLEASE, would someone generate/produce a SIMPLE but entirely SPECIFUC
     LIST os complaints, gripes, problems, needs, demands of the HUNGARIAN
     minority ?
Given such a roster, some of us from abroad might have some constructive
ideas how to consider, deal with, solve such difficulties as may exist.
The complaints, gripes...etc need NOT be justified or valied: but whatever
they ARE, they are a FACT that Slovakia and Slovaks ought to(NEED TO) deal
with and historical recriminations or emotional outbursts are NOT a good
way to deal with the FUTURE.
Jiri Nehnevajsa
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.slovak-l
Date:         Mon, 23 Nov 1992 16:47:29 EDT
From:         Hugh Agnew <AGNEWHL@GWUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Full-Tuition Fellowships for Graduate Study

This message is addressed in particular to listmembers who are now at
universities and higher education institutions in Central/Eastern Europe.
If any of you are, or know, a student who might be interested, please
pass this information on.

The George Washington University, located in Washington, DC, has a limited
number of full-tuition fellowships for graduate study at GWU under a program
called the "Global Leadership Program."  This year the geographic area of
the program has been expanded to include the countries of "Eastern Europe"
(i.e. the former Soviet bloc plus former Yugoslavia).  The fellowships are
intended for developing or strengthening the leadership capabilities of
Fellows who will return to their county of origin to apply those skills
learned through their formal education at GWU.  They provide full tuition
and certain laboratory and other fees.  Grantees will (unfortunately) still
be required to find approximately USD 9,380 to cover books, living and other
expenses for 9 months, and to provide certification of this support.

Fellowships will be awarded to highly-qualified full-time graduate degree
program students in many different departments and schools of the university.
Applicants must first gain admittance to the university by applying SEPARATELY
to the Admissions Office of the respective school.

Deadline for this year's competition is February 1, 1993.  Application forms
and further information may be had from:

                  Geri Rypkema, Director
                  Global Leadership Program
                  Stuart Hall, Rm. B-03
                  The George Washington University
                  Washington, DC  20052
                  U.S.A.


[Just a personal note:  I know we have very few applications to date from
students in Hungary or the Czech or Slovak Republics, which is why I send
this to the lists.  Of course students from other countries of the region
may also apply.  We're just sorry the fellowship can't cover living expenses
too!]

You could also contact me directly (AGNEWHL@GWUVM.BITNET; or agnewhl@gwuvm.
gwu.edu) and I would do my best to give further information.  But Geri
Rypkema is the one who knows the most about the program.

Sincerely,  Hugh Agnew
From: Lubosh.Hanuska@anu.edu.au (Lubosh)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.slovak-l
Subject: Re: Matthew of Trencin
Date: 15 Nov 92 23:03:29 GMT
Organization: ANU Canberra
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In article <1992Nov15.193920.21256@news.eng.convex.com> Robert Cox,
rcox@convex.UUCP writes:
In article <1992Nov15.193920.21256@news.eng.convex.com> Robert Cox,
rcox@convex.UUCP writes:
>Was Matthew of Trenc~in a Slovak or Hungarian?  Most Slovak histories
>I have read are ready to claim him for the Slovak side.  Here is an 
>extended quote from Peter Yurchak's book "The Slovaks": 
Two remarks - I appreciate your extract (I wouldn't have the patience to
type it all in), but you didn't mention that preceding that part was a
description of numerous invasions from Asia to the region, which set the
conditions for building all the complex of castles against Tartars, and
which enabled then Matu's Ca'k to build his own little empire there...
Another thing - the origin of Matu's Ca'k: Gilbert L.Oddo in his book
"Slovakia and Its People" (Robert Speller & Sons, New York, 1960) gives a
brief description of all this: "By the end of the thirteenth century
Hungary had disintegrated into several parts ruled over by wealthy
magnates. Among these nobles was Matthew Ca'k of Trenci'n, 'the lord of
the Va'h and the Tatras', who became the ruler of a large part of
Slovakia at the end of the thirteenth century. Ca'k was not a Slovak by
birth, but his ancestors had acquired large tracts of land in Slovakia."
(p.31)
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Date:         Sat, 21 Nov 1992 14:16:55 EST
From:         George Antony <gantony@METZ.UNE.EDU.AU>
Subject:      Re: Roots of the Slovak-Hungarian Conflict
              92 4:30 am

Lubosh wrote:
> Well, this is something nobody mentioned yet, but I had a few Hungarian
> colleagues as students when I studied (1982-1987 in Kosice). All of them
> had enormous problem with the Slovak language. The obvious reason was
> they learned everything in Hungarian from the kindergarten up to the high
> school! Slovak was only a foreign language, and majority of them had a
> very bad attitude to learn it, supported by their teachers who were
> obviously mainly Hungarian. So their ability to speak Slovak IN SLOVAKIA
> was very poor even after they finished the high school !

This is clearly regrettable, and a good example of allowing emotional reactions
to dominate rational thinking.  Kids have a tremendous capacity for learning
languages, and they can soak up another language with great ease even if
their main language of education is different.  So, learning Slovak would not
be to the detriment of anything else.  On the contrary, it would be to the
advantage of all, Hungarians and Slovaks.  Being bilingual is to the advantage
of the individual, and  it would also constitute a step by Hungarians towards
Slovaks that is both symbolic and practical.  Those who refuse to learn the
main language of the country they live in disadvantage themselves personally,
and add to the mutual suspicion between the majority and the minority.

> Can you imagine
> the same attitude of the Hungarians in other countries, like Canada, or
> U.S.A.?

No, but, in all fairness, the two situations are somewhat different.

Mind you, I met not one or two Hungarians in Australia who have half-forgotten
Hungarian and only half-learned English, and then Hungarian migrants are
doing better than many others.
 -------------------------------------------------------------
 George Antony    (gantony@metz.une.edu.au)
 Department of Agricultural Economics and Business Management
 University of New England, Armidale, N.S.W. 2351, Australia
 Fax: (+61-67) 711531     Phone: (+61-67) 733222 (GMT +10 hrs)
 -------------------------------------------------------------
From: KUBASKA%uakom.cs@CSBBYS51.BITNET
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.slovak-l
Subject: Re: C and S issues
Date: 19 Nov 92 09:29:01 GMT
Organization: UAKOM SAV Banska Bystrica, CSFR
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Priority:     normal
X-Mailer:     Pegasus Mail v2.3 (R4).

First I must apologize to you as well.
My reply was really too emotial to be sent to discussion group.
Let it be a lame excuse for me that I was really quite irritated
by your remark about situation in A-H empire knowing,for instance,
that lot of people had to die simply because they wanted  speak
their mother's language.
I post it to the list because I found it appropriate to set the
things right at the place where I spoiled them.
I have to admit that I see the near future quite pesimistic as you
do. But I believe that in more distant horizont there will be
prosperity in SR. I'm convinced that there was no other way to solve
C-S relations than to create two independent states. You write that
you was in S, than you had to see that there is no hate to Czechs.
(I certainly have not in mind small number of primitives that
ends up with 0.0X% in last ellection). Besides the blind nationalism
in SR that exists in every country around the world and that is
realy rare here, there is another kind of nationalism that is present
in SR. It is devotion to our nation, land, language, culture and
GOOD WILL to cooperate with another nations as equal ones. Somebody
have said that there are no closer nations in the world as are Czechs
and Slovaks. I think he is right.I'm sure that it will be as another
one said :"The state is breaking the cooperation remains". There are
signs (new C-S treaties and agreements) that my belief is right. And I
would be very happy if you switch one day from CSfile to Cfile and
Sfile, because I believe that there were our nations that you were
devoted to and not the state form they lived in.

Respectfuly,






Marian Kubaska
Banska Bystrica
Czech and Slovak Federal Republic
E-mail: KUBASKA@UAKOM.CS
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Date:         Mon, 23 Nov 1992 14:49:24 -0600
From:         Milan Palus <mp@CCSR.UIUC.EDU>
Subject:      Re: mapping

pariser@CATS.UCSC.EDU writes:
>>    The 1993 map shows enclaves of minority Hungarians,
>> living in paranoia in the same territory now known as SLOVAKIA.

KUBASKA@uakom.cs writes:
>  Paranoia- a mental disorder characterised by delusions, as of
>grandeur or, esp.,PERSECUTION. (according to Webster's new world
>dictionary)
>I ask you for appology or examples of persecution.

Paranoia is a mental disorder characterized by
delusions of persecution, i.e. an ill person believes
he/she is persecuted and in fact he/she is not.
So there is no reason to ask for examples of persecution
unless one is a psychiatrist studying delusions.

Sincerely,
M. Palus
From: Lubosh.Hanuska@anu.edu.au (Lubosh)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.slovak-l
Subject: Re: Slovak-Hungarian Conflicts
Date: 19 Nov 92 22:07:12 GMT
Organization: Australian National University
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In article <9211122304.AA17484@atc.boeing.com> Joe Pannon,
pannon@BCSFSE.BOEING.COM writes:
>took it.  However, I would also expect some recognition from the Slovaks
>what it must have meant for Hungarians to lose over 2/3 of their former
>territory after WW I. 
Dear Joe,
doesn't this show really the wish of a Great Hungary to come back ? Do
you really want Hungary to come into the pre-WW I borders ? I'd like you
to consider the borders of the Great Moravian Empire, or the borders of
the Kingdom of Bohemia under Charles IV., and get some recognition for
what did it mean for the Czechs and Slovaks to loose all that
territory... What would happen if Great Britain would complain about
losing its colonies after WW II ?!? Just have a look what happens due to
the attempt to restore the Greater Serbia !!!
Lubosh
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.slovak-l
Date:         Wed, 18 Nov 1992 09:45:16 PST
From:         Joe Pannon <pannon@BCSFSE.CA.BOEING.COM>
Subject:      Getting duplicates

Dear List Administrator!

My e-mail system was down for a couple days and after it came back, I
noticed that each slovak-l message is being propogated to my in
duplicate.  Why?

As I have also seen one of those subscription confirmation messages
again, that may be the reason, though I have not subscribed again.
In fact, that confirmation indicated something about Jan Frajkor adding
me to the list (the second time).

Can anybody make any sense out of this?
In either case, I'd like to stop this duplication to me, but I don't
know how.  So perhaps our gracious Admin (who ever he is), through his
God-like powers might be able to accomplish that.

Thanks,
Joe Pannon

P.S.:  Now you know why I have not responded to any messages in the last
few days, but -- I'm sure to your greatest joy! -- I'll start making up
now.  Some messages addressed to me may, however, been lost.  Most were
probably just spooled up and now I am getting them.
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Date:         Tue, 17 Nov 1992 17:51:08 EST
From:         "(George Frajkor)" <gfrajkor@CCS.CARLETON.CA>
Subject:      Re: Powers of Assimilation
              Pannon" at Nov 13, 92 4:43 pm

Joe Pannon writes:
>
> Don't you find it silly to compare 70 years with 1000?  But let's look
> at the last 70 years then:  where do you get the notion that Hungarians
> have been increasing in numbers during that time in Slovakia?  That
> would indeed be miraculous!

         After WWII something like 60-thousand people in Slovakia
declared themselves to be of Hungarian nationality.  Today it is
something like 500-thousand.   Either a miracle or a past or present
lie.

>  I don't know about you, but the
> information I am getting is that most Slovak cities that used to have
> Hungarian majorities before WW I, are now almost completely
> Slovak-inhabited, with the exception of Komarno.

    Once Slovakia departed from Hungary, a lot of Hungarian
indsultrialists, merchants and administators went home.  They were not
assimilated, they just went back to hUngary.  The same happened to the
Czech teachers, administrators and industrial leaders who were sent
into Slovakia to replace the departing hungarians -- in 1939, when
Slovakia became independent, they went home. There are fewer  Czechs
in Slovakia today than before WWII.  It is not assimilation. On the
other hand the 300-thousand Slovaks who were settled in Bohemia to
replace the expelled Germans in 1945 are genuinely getting
assimilated.

    Jan George Frajkor       _!_
 School of Journalism       __!__
 Carleton University,         |
 Ottawa, Ontario             /^\
 Canada K1S 5B6           /^\   /^\
   -- gfrajkor@ccs.carleton.ca --
  613 788-7404     fax:613 788-5604
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Organization: Brown University
X-Acknowledge-To: <ROBR@BROWNVM>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.slovak-l
Date:         Tue, 17 Nov 1992 21:01:02 EST
From:         Rob Ryan <ROBR@BROWNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Cyrillic characters on Mac

I'm investigating the installation of Cyrillic fonts on some Macs and have
been depressed by the frightening numbers of different fonts.  I often find
that while my Cyrillic characters work fine on my machine, that documents
that others create, using other fonts, don't map correct to my characters.

Is there any standard for Cyrillic characters for the Mac (including the
diacritics and accents found only in linguistic journals)?  If not any
formal standard, is there any de facto standard?  I've heard about Casidy
and Greene's Cyrillic library, which sounds great, but have also heard
of an "Extended Apple Cyrillic" to which C & G's library doesn't conform.

Any information or advise that people can offer would be greatly appreciated.
We're looking for ways to minimize incompatibilities when sharing Mac docs
with other Slavic writers.  Thanks.

My apologies if this is the incorrect forum for this question.

-- Rob Ryan, Computing Resource Center, Brown University