From: ACUS10@WACCVM.SPS.MOT.COM (Mark Fuller)
Subject: Re: Mormons are not Christians
Organization: Motorola Inc.
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 02:21:00 GMT

From: davidh@cascade.ens.tek.com (David Hatcher)
>Than ALL souls are damned for all eternity. For there is not a single
>person who can ever be totally correct on the area of who God is and
>who Jesus us. The mental capacity of man just can not take it all in.

        I agree with you, none of us can *fully* understand who God is
-- but we can discern truth from fiction.  If someone tries to pass us
'another testament' which presents Jehovah as being birthed by an
exalted copulating man ....

        The Old Testament, and therefore the Bible, clearly teaches that
there is but one true God, and that God's name is YHWH, Yahweh, or,
mispronounced in English as Jehovah.  The reason for saying this is
clear -- in Mormonism, the name "Jehovah" is reserved exclusively for
the Son, Jesus Christ.  The Father cannot be said to be Jehovah in
Mormon theology.  Indeed, as Joseph Smith expressed it, they (the Father
and Son) are separate and distinct personages and separate and distinct
gods.

        The Mormon temple ceremonies clearly present three separate and
distinct individuals involved in creation -- Elohim (Father), Jehovah
(Son) and Michael (who becomes Adam).  Elohim sends Jehovah and Michael
down to "organize" this earth.  This is in direct contradiction of
Isaiah 44:24, which says that Jehovah (which is printed in English
Bibles like this: LORD -- see the LDS Bible dictionary, page 711)
created all things alone and by himself.

        Be that as it may, the point is this -- the Bible clearly
teaches that there is only one God, not just for this planet, but for
all the universe.  This God is called YHWH, Yahweh, or, if you prefer,
Jehovah. I will bring up three Scriptures (there are, without any
exaggeration, hundreds) that I invite you to examine in their context,
in their original languages, in their historical contexts - however you
wish. They will clearly teach what I here claim.

        The first Scripture is Deuteronomy 4:32-10, specifically verses
35 and 39. In the NIV they read:

   "You were shown these things so that you might know that the LORD is
   God; besides him there is no other."
   "Acknowledge and take to heart this day that the LORD is God in
   heaven above and on earth below.  There is no other."

        Please note what these verses teach. First, Jehovah is Elohim --
this is repeated twice, once in verse 35 and again in verse 39. You can
check any translation, the fact remains the same.  Each occurrence has
been translated from the Hebrew language -- both take the exact same
form, [yahw_e_h hu haelohim] = "Yahweh he is Elohim.' It doesn't even
take a Hebrew scholar to see that quite clearly.  The form is emphatic
in two ways -- the verb _hu_ is used, which is unusual for the
Pentateuch (most clauses are verbless in the Pentateuch), and second the
definite article is used with Elohim - "_the_ God" not just any god.
Second, both verses show that it is an error to believe that the terms
"Jehovah" and "Elohim" refer to different gods or beings.  Both times
the verses say, "there is no other." Verse 35 gives the vital Hebrew
term, _milbado_, "besides him." Note that this is singular, not plural.
If Jehovah and Elohim were separate beings, it should say besides "them"
-- plural, not "him", singular.

        We here see quite clearly that Jehovah and Elohim are simply two
words used to describe one being -- the one true Jehovah God. Besides
Jehovah, there is no other.  No other what? No other God, of course.
This closes the door on any kind of polytheistic notions that might be
forced on the Bible from somewhere else.  Thirdly and finally, it is
impossible to utilize the dodge that many LDS have used at this point -
"well," we are told, "that applies only to this world..."  No, says
Moses, for the passage says, "Acknowledge and take to heart this day
that the LORD is God in heaven above and on earth below." This passage
is just as true in "heaven above" as it is on "earth below."

        The only possible consideration that could be urged against the
clear teaching of Deuteronomy 4:35 - 42 (and many other passages that
teach the same thing) would be that this is inconsistent with the entire
revelation of the Old Testament.  But is this so? Certainly not!  We
would challenge anyone to come up with so much as one solid reference in
the Bible that would teach that Jehovah and Elohim are separate and
distinct Gods.  No such reference exists.  Indeed, one can find further
witness concerning this subject (Yahweh/Elohim) in passages such as 1
Kings 18:39 or Psalm 100:3.

        The second passage to be examined is Exodus 34:14, which reads
in the NIV:

   "Do not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous,
   is a jealous God."

        The polytheistic teachings of the Mormon Church run into great
difficulty when the Bible is allowed to say what it actually says in its
own context.  If there are three separate gods in the "godhead" of this
planet as the Mormon Church teaches, which god do we worship?

        Apostle Bruce R. McConkie addressed this issue in a talk he gave
at BYU in March of 1982.  In this speech, in which he declared that
people "should not strive for a special and personal relationship with
Christ," Apostle McConkie also addressed the question of who we truly
worship.  His words are as follows:

  "We worship the Father and him only and no one else. We do not worship
  the Son and we do not worship the Holy Ghost. I know perfectly well
  what the scriptures say about worshipping Christ and Jehovah, but they
  are speaking in an entirely different sense -- the sense of standing
  in awe and being reverentially grateful to Him who has redeemed us.
  Worship in the true and saving sense is reserved for God the first,
  the Creator."

        Apostle McConkie said that his words were doctrine of the Church
and he said that "everyone who is sound spiritually and who has guidance
of the Holy Spirit will believe my words and follow my counsel."  In
this talk we are also told that "Christ worked out his own salvation by
worshipping the Father."  How strange this sounds to the person who
understands the monotheism of the Bible!  Indeed, how absurd it is to
think of Jehovah worshipping someone higher than himself!  Psalm 97:9 -
"For you, O LORD, are the Most High over all the earth; you are exalted
far above all gods." Psalm 135:5 -- "I know that the LORD is great, that
our Lord is greater than all gods."  There is none above Jehovah, there
is none beside him.  Jehovah worships none, but is to be worshipped by
all, for he is the one true God.

        This takes us back to the Scripture at hand - Exodus 34:14. Here
we are told that worship - and who can doubt but that this means worship
in its highest sense, for the context is that of worshipping gods --
belongs solely and completely to Jehovah.  We are to worship no other
God than Jehovah.  Jesus expressed this in Matthew 4:10 when he rebuked
Satan by saying, "Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only."  Since
Jesus is worshipped in the Bible, it is clear, therefore, that both
Father and Son along with the Spirit are the one Jehovah.  Worship is
due to none else.

        Mormons, therefore, are left with a dilemma - whom shall we
worship?  Since Mormons are polytheistic and believe that there are
other true Gods than Jehovah (in direct contradiction to the Bible's
clear teaching), they are left in a situation where there is no
solution. Worship, true worship, demands strict monotheism.  Mormonism
does not have a true God, hence true worship is impossible. Therefore,
when the Mormon worships a god other than Jehovah, he or she is doing so
in violation of not only Exodus 34:14, but also of the First Commandment
as recorded in Exodus 20:2-3 which says, "I am the LORD (Jehovah) thy
God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house
of bondage.  Thou shalt have no other gods before me." (See also
Deuteronomy 5:6-7).  Mormonism has another god before Jehovah!

        The third and final passage to be examined is Isaiah 44:6 and 8,
which in the King James Version reads,

   "Thus sayeth the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD
   of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is
   no God...Fear ye not, neither be afraid; have not I told thee from
   that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a
   God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any."

        This passage forms part of an entire section in which God says
over and over again that there is only one true God.  He says in Isaiah
43:10, "before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after
me."  In Isaiah 45:5 he says, "I am the LORD, and there is none else,
there is no God beside me..."

        The key points to be examined in 44:6,8 are these: first,
Jehovah identifies himself as the "first and the last."  Is the Jehovah
of the Mormon Church the first and the last? Has the Jehovah of
Mormonism always been a god?  No indeed. Rather, Jesus Christ (Jehovah)
attained unto godhood in the pre-existence. Therefore, Jehovah,
according to the LDS Church, has not eternally been a god!  How,
therefore, could he be the first and the last? Impossible.  Again
Jehovah claims that there is no God beside him -- or, more accurately,
no Elohim beside him, though we have already seen that Mormonism does
teach that there is an Elohim aside from Jehovah -- many of them, to be
exact.  Who, then, are we to believe -- God or Joseph Smith?

        The other passage is found in verse 8 where God asks a question
of us -- "is there a God beside me?" The Mormon answers, "yes, there is
-- many of them in fact, for as man is, God once was; and as God is, man
may become."  But is this the answer of God? No indeed, for God's own
answer is, "yea, there is no God, I know not any."  Now, to avoid
confusion, we must realize that the term "God" in the King James Version
that is found in the last clause is not the term Elohim. Rather, it is
the term _zur_ which literally means "rock."  However, it is frequently
used as a parallel term for _God_ (e.g., Psalm 18:31 -- "For who is God
besides the LORD?  And who is the Rock except our God?") as it is here.
God knows of no other Gods. Is this true in Mormonism? Certainly not.
If God were once a man who lived on another planet, as Joseph Smith
taught, then he obviously would know of the God who was the God of the
planet on which he lived.  But God, whose "understanding is infinite"
(Psalm 147:5) says that he knows of no other Gods. How can this be if
Mormonism is true? Clearly, the LDS Church has missed the obvious
teaching of the Scriptures at this point.

        It might be good at this point to address a topic that should
help Mormons to see the falsehood of the LDS teachings concerning the
nature of God.  Mormons believe that the Father is not Jehovah.  Only
the Son (Jesus) is Jehovah, according to LDS doctrine.  However, the
Bible clearly teaches that the name "Jehovah" is connected with Father,
Son and Holy Spirit.  Now, Mormons have no problem in the Son being
Jehovah -- many passages in the Bible clearly teach this (e.g., Isaiah
6/John 12:39-41). I will not here delve into the issue of the Spirit
being identified as Jehovah other than to reference such passages as
Isaiah 6:9/Acts 28:25-26, or Exodus 4:11/1 Corinthians 12:10-11.  What
Mormons do have a problem with is the identification of the Father as
Jehovah. For example, the popular booklet "What the Mormons Think of
Christ" quotes Matthew 22:41-46 and in doing so twists the Scriptures to
hide the clear fact that here Jesus identifies the Father as Jehovah.
How do they do this?  Following you will see the quotation *exactly* as
it appears in the pamphlet (including brackets):

  "While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, Saying,
  What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son
  of David. He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him
  Lord, saying, the Lord [Elohim, the Father] said unto my Lord
  [Jehovah, the Son], Sit thou on my right hand till I make thine
  enemies thy footstool? If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?
  And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from
  that day forth ask him any more questions."
(pg. 6 1976, and 1982 eds.)

        Notice that the Mormon authors of this pamphlet have added the
information that the quotation Jesus gives of Psalm 110:1 identifies the
Father speaking to the Son, which is correct.  What is incorrect is the
information also added -- that the first "Lord" is "Elohim," and the
second "Lord" is "Jehovah."  Is this true? Does Psalm 110:1 say that
Elohim spoke to Jehovah as if there were two different gods here, one
Elohim and one Jehovah?

        No indeed!  Here is Psalm 110:1 from the KJV: "The LORD said
unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy
footstool."  Notice that in Hebrew it says "Jehovah said unto my Lord
(Hebrew: Adonai)."  (Note that the first appearance in English of the
term "Lord" is written "LORD" which represents Jehovah as the 1981
edition of the Bible Dictionary in the LDS Bible states on page 711; the
second appearance is not capitalized, and this represents the simple
word "Lord").  The term "Elohim" does not even appear anywhere in the
passage.  Clearly, then, the Father is here identified as Jehovah, the
one speaking to the Son.  Now, since it is also clear that the Bible
says Jesus is also Jehovah, then we must conclude, as the Christian
Church always has, that Jehovah is tri-personal; that is, that three
persons (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) share the one being that is
Jehovah God. For the Mormon person who is accustomed to believing in a
finite god, this could be confusing.  What the Mormon needs to realize
is that the God of the Bible is infinite -- that is, he is unlimited.
His being, therefore, can be shared by more than one person, just as the
Bible teaches.  Now, the above quoted error in the Mormon pamphlet could
simply have been gross ignorance or it could have been willful deception
-- I leave that up to the reader to decide.

        The number of passages that identify the Father as Jehovah are
too numerous to begin to mention.  For example, when Jesus was tempted
by Satan, Satan demanded worship from Christ.  Jesus replied by stating
that one is to worship God alone.  In doing so he quoted Deuteronomy
6:13 and 10:20 which is specifically about Jehovah God, here clearly in
reference to the Father.  No one who takes the Bible seriously can
believe anything other than the fact that the Father is Jehovah, as is
the Son, as is the Spirit.

        Given the above passages of Scripture, their context, their
languages and their meaning, it is clear that Mormonism follows after a
false God who can in no way be equated with the God of the Bible.  The
Bible is adamant that there is but one God, Jehovah.  To worship another
is to be lead into idolatry.

Mark
<standard disclaimer>

Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc