HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: cdt@sw.stratus.com (C. D. Tavares)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.clinton,alt.politics.bush
Subject: Re: Feminism and Libertarians
Date: 22 Dec 1992 23:52:00 GMT
Organization: Stratus Computer, Inc.
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: rocket.sw.stratus.com

In article <1992Dec21.140506.16134@samba.oit.unc.edu>, bolden@beta.math.unc.edu (Jeffrey Bolden) writes:

>  As for what it can do for libertarians the answer is simple, votes and
> recognician.  The feminists are unhappy with the democrats because they
> have split views on many woman's issues.  Parties like the consumer party
> of people's socialist party are econically rediculous.  
> 	The LP might very well be able to actract this group.  As a
> philospophy libertarianism might be both aided by and aid feminism. 
> Finally the discussion started by noting that there are very lib. females.

Saying that "The LP might very well be able to attract feminists" is
misleading.  

First off, the title "feminist" is to misused/overused today as to have
almost no intrinsic meaning.  Both Camille Paglia and Andrew Dworkin
consider themselves to be "feminists" in that they want what THEY think
is best for women -- but the only thing they have in common is anatomy.

I would predict that the "feminist" community contains the same ratio of
statists vs. individualists that you would find in the country at large --
if anything, maybe even a bit heavier on the statists.  The history of 
feminism is a chronicle of the attempted harnessing of government power 
to force social change, which is the antithesis of libertarian philosophy.

In short, I propose that "feminists" as a group have no more in common
with libertarians than any other randomly-chosen orthogonal community, 
and may in fact have less.
-- 

cdt@rocket.sw.stratus.com   --If you believe that I speak for my company,
OR cdt@vos.stratus.com        write today for my special Investors' Packet...

Newsgroups: alt.politics.libertarian
From: tleylan@pegasus.com (Tom Leylan)
Subject: Re: Labor Standard
Organization: Pegasus,  Honolulu
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 92 07:32:06 GMT

bolden@beta.math.unc.edu (Jeffrey Bolden) writes:

>	As for the ditch question.  I think he was assumeing that any
>strong man with a shovel (the kind of guy who would be a ditch digger)
>would move about the same number of cubic feet of dirt.  So in short there
>is nothing skilled.  I actually asked the same question about a guy with a
>tractor.  He moves about 50x as much dirt.  Does he get payed 50x as much?
> The author never responded, so I can't answer that.

Jeffrey:  We're just left here to speculate <heh>.

Tractor man would get the same wage if it could be proven that driving
a tractor was unskilled labor it doesn't appear to matter what is
accomplished just that everybody could do it.

Rather than digging ditches I think that "breathing" or something will
have to be the baseline.  Strength is an asset one pays more for when
the job requires it.

That's why I asked if there was anything skilled about digging ditches
which I believe there is, some braniac wants "mental skills" to be the
deciding factor.

Actually being an attorney is an unskilled task as just like digging
ditches anybody can do it... few very well but now we're getting into
semantics and personal judgment.

tom

Newsgroups: alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.clinton,alt.politics.bush
From: starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Tim Starr)
Subject: Re: Feminism and Libertarians
Organization: UDel, School of Life & Health Sciences
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 05:15:36 GMT

In article <1992Dec23.033845.15503@samba.oit.unc.edu> bolden@beta.math.unc.edu (Jeffrey Bolden) writes:
}
}	Well, I don't know.  Tim Starr and I have been debating this for
}about week.  Right now on 14 big issues we've pretty much agreed that the
}LP and fems. are on the same side on say 8 of them probably 9 (Tim's
}opposed to felony laws).

I am, but that's by no means a majority position in the LP.

That's better than the Dems could do.  Finally
}there a well orginized group who is ready to jump ship on the 2 big
}parties.  That's why there a lot easier to get a good hold of politically,
}than say the "Reagan democrats".

If the group you're referring to is NOW, we'd have to overthrow its present
leadership prior to much of an alliance.  Besides the fact that NOW is
subsidized by the Federal government, we'd never get past their Sweden-
worshipping ideas about State child and health care, their support for anti-
discrimination law, etc.  These aren't mariginal feminist position, but
mainstays as far as I know.

I tried doing outreach to the campus NOW chapter at UC Santa Barbara when I
attended school there.  Most of what they did was complain about how the
Bush administration disapproved of the legislated benefits they supported for
women.

Tim Starr - Renaissance Now! - Think Universally, Act Selfishly
starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu

"True greatness consists in the use of a powerful understanding to enlighten
oneself and others." - Francois Marie Arouet Voltaire
Newsgroups: alt.politics.libertarian
From: cmk@athena.mit.edu (Charles M Kozierok)
Subject: Re: Views? :
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1992 05:18:06 GMT

In article <-bT=jBA@engin.umich.edu> positron@engin.umich.edu (Jonathan Scott Haas) writes:
>(by the way, your tone tells me that you doubt that the 'crash' will ever
>occur. Let me tell you what I think will happen. Sometime, in our lifetimes,
>the government will default on the national debt. It will have no choice...
>at the rate we're going, interest on the debt will soon become the largest
>single budget item. When the government defaults, T-bonds, T-bills, and
>T-notes will become worthless overnight. There will be riots, as lots of
>little old ladies and fine, upstanding folk have their life savings in
>good, safe T-bills. When it happens, I don't want to be holding any U.S.
>Dollars.)

amen.

it probably won't happen like that, because then the government might
actually have to be accountable for its mess. instead, they will delay
it by inflating the currency -- then the final crash will come, and
they will be able to act like they didn't know, or it was someone else's
fault.

and it won't be just "sometime, in our lifetimes", IMO.
it will be in the *next five years*.

prepare now or suffer the consequences.
start by reading "Bankruptcy 1995" by Harry E. Figgie Jr.
should take only a few hours. but don't read it before bed.
it won't help your sleep.

--
charles
From: cdt@sw.stratus.com (C. D. Tavares)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.libertarian
Subject: Re: Are recent Libertarian crusades not libertarian?
Date: 22 Dec 1992 23:53:27 GMT
Organization: Stratus Computer, Inc.
Distribution: usa
NNTP-Posting-Host: rocket.sw.stratus.com

In article <1992Dec21.171201.25449@bradley.bradley.edu>, dave@bradley.bradley.edu (David Vessell) writes:

> Ya know, I've been thinking about this for some time now, and I think I
> agree with him.  If we place adequate restrictions on government, then
> there should be no need for term limits.

Now there's a tautology with hidden teeth.

If we COULD SUCCEED in placing adequate restrictions on government, then
we WOULD have no need for term limits.
-- 

cdt@rocket.sw.stratus.com   --If you believe that I speak for my company,
OR cdt@vos.stratus.com        write today for my special Investors' Packet...

Xref: sparky alt.politics.economics:84 alt.politics.libertarian:2982
From: feathers@serss0 (Michael Feathers)
Subject: Appraisals and true value
Organization: Florida International University, Miami
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 14:11:43 GMT

I'm very curious about something.  Recently I bought an engagement ring for
X amount of dollars.  An appraisal came through the mail stating that said
ring was actually worth X + N dollars.

What does this mean?  Isn't the market value of the ring the amount that
a buyer and seller would agree upon?  

If the value is truly X + N dollars, then why aren't there many individuals
doing a lucrative business of buying gems at retail outlets for X dollars
and selling them for X + N dollars to whoever believes the appraisal?

For someone who thinks of price as an information system, this is truly
weird.

Michael Feathers

 

Newsgroups: alt.politics.italy,soc.culture.italian
From: moliva@cc.utah.edu (Maurizio Oliva)
Subject: Re: is alt.politics.italy an active group?
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.4-b1  
Organization: University of Utah Computer Center
Date: 30 Dec 1992 22:34 MST  

In article <1992Dec30.201344.1@cc.utah.edu>, moliva@cc.utah.edu writes...
{In article <C03025.Bvn@ecf.toronto.edu>, stefano@ecf.toronto.edu (Bruno Di Stefano) writes:
{> This is just an attempt to verify if alt.politics.italy is read
{> or used anywhere.
{> 
{> If you read this posting while reading alt.politics.italy, please,
{> respond.
{> 
{> Bruno
{> 
{> -- 
{> Bruno Di Stefano
{> stefano@ecf.toronto.edu		(course related matters)
{> bruno@ecf.toronto.edu		(professional matters)
{ 
{ 
{Dear Bruno thanks
{	I actually wrote an article about changes in the near future
{of Italian politics to answer your posting.
{	Unfortunately I was eating and drinking Cabernet Sauvignon (Chilean)
{and I managed to loose my article at the moment of posting it.
{ 
{ 
{Never mind
{next time
{ 
{Maurizio
{ 
{ 
{ 
{-- 
{=-===-=-----=-=-=------=-=-=-------=--==-=--=-------=-=-=-=-=--==-=-=
{Maurizio Oliva  Dept. of Languages  University of Utah
{MOLIVA@CC.UTAH.EDU, TCP/IP 128.110.48.3, DECNET 24975, 
{H (801) 537-7016,   O (801) 581-4058  FAX (801) 2720448
{-=-=-=------=-=-=-==--=---------=-=-==-=-=-=-=-=---------=-==-=--==-=
{ 
{ 
Newsgroups: alt.politics.italy,soc.culture.italian
From: stefano@ecf.toronto.edu (Bruno Di Stefano)
Subject: is alt.politics.italy an active group?
Organization: University of Toronto, Engineering Computing Facility
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 19:02:01 GMT

This is just an attempt to verify if alt.politics.italy is read
or used anywhere.

If you read this posting while reading alt.politics.italy, please,
respond.

Bruno

-- 
Bruno Di Stefano
stefano@ecf.toronto.edu		(course related matters)
bruno@ecf.toronto.edu		(professional matters)
Xref: sparky alt.politics.reform:97 alt.politics.usa.misc:687 alt.activism:19750
From: dam@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (David Morning)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.reform,alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.activism
Subject: Re: CLINTON: Season's Greetings & Best Wishes for a Happy New Year
Date: 22 Dec 92 09:59:35 GMT
Organization: Glasgow University Computing Science Dept.

Clinton-HQ@Campaign92.Org (Clinton/Gore '92) writes:



>Season's Greetings and Best Wishes for a Happy New Year!

>Thank you for your messages to the Office of the President-elect.

Hey! Has Bill Clinton a Usenet account???

Get him on here!!!

Dave

-- 
Xref: sparky alt.politics.reform:98 alt.politics.usa.misc:735 alt.activism:19830
From: rsr4936@cc.utah.edu (Reay, Robert S.)
Subject: Re: Death penalty
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.4-b1  
Organization: University of Utah Computer Center
Date: 27 Dec 1992 18:52 MST  

In article <1992Dec27.205006.1309@pegasus.com>, tleylan@pegasus.com (Tom Leylan) writes...
{endora@sage.cc.purdue.edu (Ken McCamish) writes:
{<in response to a previous posting>
{ 
{>>Excellent idea!  Explain exactly why thieves should NOT get their hands cut
{>>off!  You have to admit that a strong punishment is a great deterrent.  If
{>>they get their hand(s) cut off, they are responsible for their situation.
{>>I will not allow myself to feel sorry for them.  They deserve it!
{ 
{Ken:  I believe the term is "reducio ad absurdum" but my grasp of Latin is
{poor.  If you cannot see the difference between a five year old shoplifter
{and a 35 year old breaking into your home, pointing a gun to your head and
{shouting "give me all your money" you don't deserve to be wasting a spot at
{Purdue.

How about the difference between thievery and what you just described?
OK, adult thieves get their hands cut off; what about this 35 year 
old?  I don't know the exact legal terminology, but this is more than 
thievery -- more like burglary and assault with a deadly weapon (any 
legal buffs out there?)  If you cannot see the difference between a 
common thief and someone who breaks and enters with a gun and holds up 
the homeowner, you don't deserve to be telling Ken he doesn't deserve 
to be wasting a spot at Purdue.

			rob
From: endora@sage.cc.purdue.edu (Ken McCamish)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.sex
Subject: Re: Death penalty
Date: 27 Dec 92 15:41:51 GMT
Organization: Purdue University Computing Center

In article <1hadtaINNa5l@rave.larc.nasa.gov> rowland@zorba7.larc.nasa.gov (Michael W. Rowland) writes:
>In article <1g5chbINNp0c@news.aero.org>, robert@aero.org (R. S. Statsinger) 
>writes:
>> In article <Byyyyu.K2w@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> branwen@sage.cc.purdue.edu ( ) 
>> writes:
>> |
>> |      Many have responded to my "kill the killers" posts, most with well
>> |thought out answers, points and elucidations.  I thank you all for the
>> |debate.  I wish to respond to a few of the points that have been made
>> |regarding me personally, and not merely the subject/issue of the death
>> |penalty.
>> |
>> |I do believe in revenge.  I want killers dead.  I want rapists executed.
>> 
>> Well, gee. This would put us right up there with such distinguished
>> places as Iran, Iraq, Libya......
>> 
>> I suppose you also believe that thiefs should have their hands cut off....
>> Sheesh.
>> 
>> 		R.S.
>> 
>Excellent idea!  Explain exactly why thieves should NOT get their hands cut
>off!  You have to admit that a strong punishment is a great deterrent.  If
>they get their hand(s) cut off, they are responsible for their situation.
>I will not allow myself to feel sorry for them.  They deserve it!
>
Yeah, those five-year-old kids who lift a lolipop from the candy stand while
their mothers are in line at the local Kroger's need to be taught a lesson.
eegads!



      *           -The very idea that my opinions might resemble those of
     ***           Purdue University frightens me.  Please don't even
    *****          think about it.

endora@sage.cc.purdue.edu -the patron witch of mothers-in-law

-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-----_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-____-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_
"Blame not thyself; Cry         /    "Yes, we're all      /"I have to go to the
witch!  - Samantha Stevens     /  different! "           / bathroom, there's
                              /  "I'm not"  "Shh!"      / pees in there!" -
                             /                         / - Jeni Stein
_______---------_________--------_________----------_________--------________
Newsgroups: alt.politics.sex,talk.politics.misc,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.rush-limbaugh,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh.tv-show
From: drieux@wetware.com (drieux, just drieux)
Subject: Is This Like Moral Relativism Week Or Something?
Organization: Castle WetWare Philosopher and Sniper
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 14:08:18 GMT

tleylan@pegasus.com (Tom Leylan) writes:
] endora@sage.cc.purdue.edu (Ken McCamish) writes:
] <in response to a previous posting>
] 
] >>Excellent idea!  Explain exactly why thieves should NOT get their hands cut
] >>off!  You have to admit that a strong punishment is a great deterrent.  If
] >>they get their hand(s) cut off, they are responsible for their situation.
] >>I will not allow myself to feel sorry for them.  They deserve it!
] 
] >Yeah, those five-year-old kids who lift a lolipop from the candy stand while
] >their mothers are in line at the local Kroger's need to be taught a lesson.
] >eegads!
] 
] Ken:  I believe the term is "reducio ad absurdum" but my grasp of Latin is
] poor.  If you cannot see the difference between a five year old shoplifter
] and a 35 year old breaking into your home, pointing a gun to your head and
] shouting "give me all your money" you don't deserve to be wasting a spot at
] Purdue.
] 
] If you have some point to make, make it, if you think anybody discussing
] capital punishment plans to kill five year olds you are the dangerous one.
] 
] tom


Am I missing tom's point?

He wants to have some sort of WimpLiberal
Wishy Washy sort of Morality, or What?

Theft is Theft.

Ken's response was to the matter of cutting off the
hands of theives who steal things. Had tom bothered
to stay awake while he was in school he would have
learned that in those countries that had such laws
there were handless children.

ciao
drieux

ps: the term is 'reductio ad absurdum'
ask me....


-- 
Modern Day Problems:

This is Not a .sigfile addendum to the Post.
You are just reading beyond the edge.
Xref: sparky alt.politics.sex:509 alt.politics.usa.misc:685
From: sherw@ocf.berkeley.edu (Gregory Sherwin)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.sex,alt.politics.usa.misc
Subject: Re: Rape After Rape After Rape
Date: 21 Dec 1992 22:21:12 GMT
Organization: U.C. Berkeley Open Computing Facility
NNTP-Posting-Host: earthquake.berkeley.edu

In article <BzHv5o.Gpn@cs.uiuc.edu> watanabe@cs.uiuc.edu (Larry Watanabe) writes:
>I can't believe these comments. It is natural to feel more 
>protective of women and children -- and there is a reason for it.
>From a survival point of view, men, and older people 
>ARE more expendable than women and children. Children are the
>future of a society; women can produce children. 
>
>
>But more than these logical reasons, I think protection
>of women and children is something that has been deeply
>engrained by every society. It's something we feel.
>
>Cliches like  "women and children first" and "a wolf defending
>her cubs", show that protection of women and children is natural,
>and is not restricted to humans.
>
>Feeling alienated because there is more concern over the plight of
>women and children than men and elderly is a very strange
>reaction to the posting.

Well, call me very strange then.  I am not about to be one to buy into 
some kind of morbid exchange rate of 4.21 elderly people for every child for
example -
that comes off to me as more gruesome than admirable.  Whether protection of
women and children is supposed to be natural or not, I'd like to believe
that the life of every living person on this planet has equal value -
regardless of age, of sex, of race, whatever.  The implications of
anything otherwise are too scary for me - like murderers get life for
killing a child but only 10 years for a retiree.  THAT to me is very strange.

Protection of women and children is natural, but why shouldn't the protection
of the elderly and men be so too?  I don't know - maybe the elderly are
expendable and I'm wrong here, maybe grandpa's fatal car accident belongs
on page 14 next to the Ace Hardware sale on garden hoses and junior's
drowning is page 2.  But that just makes me feel that our society's
values are rather hypocritical then -- that everyone deserves the right to the
pursuit of life, liberty, and happiness ... but maybe a little moreso for
you less expendable types.

Not to trivialize the plight of Muslims in Bosnia - that's horrible.  But
with a world population fast approaching 6 billion, I somehow don't
see any alarm for a potential shortage of women and children.  For that
matter, in a sense of population control and the related environmental
impact, that sort of 'instinct' seems almost self-destructive in addition
to being unjust and disrespectful of every human's value on his or her
own life.  The days of cavemen and fear of being eaten are long over...
Humanity's only natural enemy is a look in the mirror.

greg
From: theodore-michael@yale.edu (Michael Theodore)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.sex
Subject: Re: Death penalty
Date: 28 Dec 1992 02:58:57 -0500
Organization: Yale University Science & Engineering UNIX(tm), New Haven, CT 06520-2158
NNTP-Posting-Host: minerva.cis.yale.edu

In article <27DEC199218520380@cc.utah.edu> rsr4936@cc.utah.edu (Reay, Robert S.) writes:
>In article <1992Dec27.205006.1309@pegasus.com>, tleylan@pegasus.com (Tom Leylan) writes...
>{endora@sage.cc.purdue.edu (Ken McCamish) writes:
>{<in response to a previous posting>
>{ 
>{>>Excellent idea!  Explain exactly why thieves should NOT get their hands cut
>{>>off!  You have to admit that a strong punishment is a great deterrent.  If
>{>>they get their hand(s) cut off, they are responsible for their situation.
>{>>I will not allow myself to feel sorry for them.  They deserve it!

How about we bring this back to sex, since this is alt.sex.politics. This
moron obviously has a small dick and therefore wants to lop off as many
appendages as he can. Go ahead, flame me for not arguing objectively, blah
blah blah. By the way, why don't you "explain exactly" why thieves
deserve to have their hands cut off?


-- 
Practice random acts of randomness.........
		theodore-michael@cs.yale.edu
From: rowland@zorba7.larc.nasa.gov (Michael W. Rowland)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.sex
Subject: Re: Humility
Date: 23 Dec 1992 19:20:19 GMT
Organization: NASA Langley Research Center, Hampton, VA 23681  USA
Distribution: world
Reply-To: rowland@zorba7.larc.nasa.gov (Michael W. Rowland)
NNTP-Posting-Host: zorba7.larc.nasa.gov

In article <DRW.92Dec10183357@phragmen.mit.edu>, drw@phragmen.mit.edu (Dale 
R. Worley) writes:
> Path: news.larc.nasa.gov!darwin.sura.net!zaphod.mps.ohio-
> state.edu!rphroy!caen!uunet!enterpoop.mit.edu!bloom-
> picayune.mit.edu!math.mit.edu!drw
> From: drw@phragmen.mit.edu (Dale R. Worley)
> Newsgroups: alt.politics.sex
> Subject: Humility
> Message-ID: <DRW.92Dec10183357@phragmen.mit.edu>
> Date: 10 Dec 92 23:33:57 GMT
> References: <1992Dec09.025357.13210@cubic.com> <Bz0AEB.6Fr@news.udel.edu>
> 	<DRW.92Dec9171737@euclid.mit.edu> <Bz0qtH.83t@news.udel.edu>
> Sender: news@athena.mit.edu (News system)
> Organization: MIT Dept. of Tetrapilotomy, Cambridge, MA, USA
> Lines: 35
> In-Reply-To: claire@brahms.udel.edu's message of Thu, 10 Dec 1992 01:00:52 
GMT
> Nntp-Posting-Host: phragmen.mit.edu
> 
> In article <Bz0qtH.83t@news.udel.edu> claire@brahms.udel.edu (Claire Elizab 
> Barna) writes:
>    No, humility means "state of being modest or humble". This feature 
becomes
>    violated upon being forced to perform sexual acts against one's will.
>    Haven't you ever heard of rape victims feeling humiliated?
> 
> (Maybe we've got some wires crossed between us here.)
> 
> As I use it, "humility" is the opposite of "pride", ("modest" has a
> similar meaning, but is now used with different connotations) so
>
> .....
> Of course, there's the difference between internally generated
> humility (which is generally considered a Good Thing) and externally
> imposed humility (which is generally considered a Bad Thing), but they
> are quite related in that they are both negations of pride.
> 
> I think some of the trouble with these words is that they really come
>.....
> Or maybe I'm wrong.
> 
> Dale
Why overalalyze!??  We understand what was said!  This is B.S.

mike

Mike Rowland (Contractor),  MS 475
NASA Langley Research Center, Hampton VA 23681
internet: rowland@zorba7.larc.nasa.gov
Newsgroups: alt.politics.sex
From: tleylan@pegasus.com (Tom Leylan)
Subject: Re: Death penalty
Organization: Pegasus,  Honolulu
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 92 06:04:58 GMT

rsr4936@cc.utah.edu (Reay, Robert S.) writes:
>
>How about the difference between thievery and what you just described?

>If you cannot see the difference between a 
>common thief and someone who breaks and enters with a gun and holds up 
>the homeowner, you don't deserve to be telling Ken he doesn't deserve 
>to be wasting a spot at Purdue.

Rob: I believe in your ability to see "thievery" and "burglary" with
"aggravated assault" as more likely the types of crime that the original
poster was discussing and not "five year old candy shoplifters".

Now we wait for Ken to suggest "uhhh yeah how about if we cut off the
arms of all the people who confuse thievery with burglary..."

That like the original poster's question is still not what was being
discussed.

tom

Newsgroups: alt.politics.sex