HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: nadeem@igpho (Nadeem Malik)
Subject: Re: Polygamy & Polyandry.
Organization: Swiss Federal Institute of Technology (ETH), Zurich, CH
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL3
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1992 17:06:49 GMT

gagrawal@cs.tamu.edu (Gopal Agrawal) writes:
: In article <1992Aug15.154739.18892@bernina.ethz.ch> nadeem@igpho (Nadeem Malik) writes:
: >
: >And on that last point, might I ask how can modern day freedom-thinkers
: >justify banning polygamy? 
: >
: >-Nadeem Malik (nadeem@p.igp.ethz.ch)
: 
: I for one would not condemn polygamy *IF* it was done with the consensus of 
: all involved. However, given the fact that most cultures are still matriarchal,
: polygamy that enjoys religious sanction is highly abused among the illiterate
: (It is only theoretically that the first wife  is supposed to be consulted 
: about another wife (and that too under extreme circumstances) but we all 
: know what the reality is). Under such circumstances, the very purpose of 
: permitting polygamy as preached by Islam is defeated. 
: 
: On the same note, it would be impossible to justify why polyandry should be 
: banned (as per Islamic prohibitions). It seems illogical as to why the same 
: logic that applies to polygamy (extreme conditions etc.) cannot be applied to 
: polyandry. Either condemn them both or accept them both but a one sided stand
: only speaks of the sexist hipocrisy of Islam (sorry...Islamic INTERPRETATION).
: 
: regards,
: --   
:    ______ ______ ______ ______ __  |\/\/\/|
:     ____/  __  /  __  /  __  /  /  |  \  /|   LIFE'S COMPLEX - IT HAS 
:    / __   /   /  /   /  /   /  /   | (o)(o)   REAL & IMAGINARY PARTS  
:   /   /  /   /   ___/  __  /  /    C      _) 
: _____/ _____/ __/   __/ __/ ______/ | \___|  
: E-mail - gagrawal@cs.tamu.edu       |   /   All Std. Disclaimers apply.


I think polyandry would be allowed for non-Muslims in a Muslim state
(theoretically anyway).

The logic of not allowing polyandry in Islam has been explained in one
of my previous posts -- but essentially it is because women are too
important a compenent in raising a family. 


Also, I do not think that under Islamic law a man has to get permisson
from his frist wife (wives) to marry again, unless this is explicitly
stipulated as a condition of marriage by the first wife.


Also, there is another benefit (if it can be called that) of polygamy,
which is that it keeps would-be secret affairs over-board. I agree that
this is a bit cheap, but you have got to admit that it is better than
having one wife and several concubines in hiding in secret. (God! I can
already feel the flames reaching me on this one even as I write!!!)


(To offset those who may be entertaining certain suspicions about me,
I had better state that I have only one wife, and I am personally firmly
committed to a monogomous existence!)


Regards to all,
-Nadeem Malik
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan,soc.culture.indian
From: gagrawal@cs.tamu.edu (Gopal Agrawal)
Subject: Re: Contradictions in the Qu'ran
Organization: Computer Science Dept., Texas A&M University
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1992 06:00:18 GMT


|> jakhan@IASTATE.EDU (Javed A Khan) writes:
|> 
|> By the way I was told that in the Hindu (Personal) Law it is a non-cognisible
|> offense if a Hindu male takes on a second wife without the consent of the 
|> first wife. But if the first wife consents the husband may not be prosecuted. 
|> I dont know how far this is true. Perhaps someone more knowledgable might 
|> want to comment. But if this is true then this would be polygamy not objected 
|> to by law and identical to polygamy allowed by the Qu'ran !!!! 

---------------------------

You are both right and wrong. You are right in the sense that there is a very 
big loophole in the legal system that can allow the husband to get away with 
double marriage. Basically the law says:

1) A married man marrying another lady without obtaining legal divorce 
   from the first is commiting a crime.

2) The man can be imprisoned for this crime if someone files a charge against 
   him. 

3) However, in the case of females, if she marries a man without obtaining 
   divorce from her former husband then she  can be charged and convicted
   by the govt. itself. It is not necessary that her husband press charges. 

Given the above, if the first wife does not press charges, the man is not 
convicted. While the law does not believe in `consent for a dual marriage',
failure of the wife to press charges effectively works out in the same way,
i.e., if the wife is not aware that her husband maintains a second wife but 
the govt. is aware of it, then the govt. will not do anything. However, if
it is the wife who commits the same crime and the govt. is aware of it while 
her husband is not, then she can be convicted. 

HOWEVER, if some relative of the wife (I believe it is limited 
upto the parents or immediate brothers/sisters) press charges 
against the man, then he will be convicted even without necessarily 
consulting the first wife. 

regards,
--   
   ______ ______ ______ ______ __  |\/\/\/|
    ____/  __  /  __  /  __  /  /  |  \  /|   LIFE'S COMPLEX - IT HAS 
   / __   /   /  /   /  /   /  /   | (o)(o)   REAL & IMAGINARY PARTS  
  /   /  /   /   ___/  __  /  /    C      _) 
_____/ _____/ __/   __/ __/ ______/ | \___|  
E-mail - gagrawal@cs.tamu.edu       |   /   All Std. Disclaimers apply.



Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
From: sherwani@sol.cs.wmich.edu (Naveed Sherwani)
Subject: Re: Contradictions of (so called) upholders of rights
Summary: Let them choose, please !
Organization: Western Michigan Univ. Comp. Sci. Dept.
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 18:50:34 GMT

In article <l8vgofINN12v@pageboy.cs.utexas.edu>, hyder@cs.utexas.edu (Syed Irfan Hyder) writes:
> In article <1992Aug13.214419.3588@sol.cs.wmich.edu> sherwani@sol.cs.wmich.edu (Naveed Sherwani) writes:
> >
> >Same is true for polygamy laws in Islam, these are laws made by MEN
> >to be imposed on WOMEN, if women had some say in this, I would 
> >like to see how these laws would look like.
> >
stuff deleted
> 
> I am all for you. Just give the right of women to decide for themselves
> and you will see that women in Muslim countries will overwhelmingly
> select Islam. Don't leave people like Saddam in their place so 
> that the Shias in the south and the Kurds in the north do not
> elect Islam. Also stop aiding Shahs, sheiks, dictators like 
> Sadaat and Muabarak and Zia and you will be pleasently suprsiesed
> with the choice of the Muslim women.
> 
> P.S.
> 
> Most women who are recent converts to veil and Islam are in fact
> educated __ most often from Western countries.
> 
> Muslim women are pretty knowledgeble about the so called 
> rights of women in the West to choose for themselves what
> is right for them.
> 
> 

I am very happy that educated people (men and women) (IYHO), opt for
islam. I just to make sure that they be given a fair chance to
make the decision.

I dont think we (me, you, our religion, etc) should be making
individual decisions for others. If well educated females want to
be muslim I am very happy for them that they made a decision
for themselves. On the other hand, why dont you let females born
in muslim countries make the same decisions also.

Just because a person is born to muslim parents, suddenly all the
laws of logic dont apply, mangoes come into picture ( :-) ), etc.

All people (men, women) should have equal rights. They should choose
their religion, husband, wives, or elect not to marry. We should
not have sexist laws (polygamy, if polyandry (sp?) is not allowed),
even if some religions says so. We must have the courage to admit 
that our religions may have some weaknesses that can be fixed.
Hiding behind the perfection of religion, is nothing but a sign of 
weakness.

I think polygamy in Islam is sexist and nothing but sign of times
in which Mohd[pbuh] lived. There is no justification for it and
should be outlawed or women should be allowed to have multiple husbands
(with the permission of first husband OFCOURSE).
  
Most men wont even (for a single second) entertain the thought of
females having second husbands, but they expect females to take it
in the cloak (sp?) of motherhood, mother is important, heaven is
under mother's feet, etc, etc. I simply think this whole idea smells
to high heaven of sexism. Men got away with it so far, but now women are
standing up and demanding that this sexist laws be removed.
I think when women get real freedom (economic, social), then 
these laws will dissovle very quickly, Islam or no Islam.

regards,

-Naveed
From: msardar@digi.lonestar.org (Mohammed Tariq Sardar)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan,soc.culture.indian
Subject: DESI JOKES (adults only) #5
Date: 12 Aug 92 22:03:55 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: DSC Communications, Plano Tx.

No discriminations are intended towards any minority group, purpose of
the joke is to build bridges and see the lighter side of our culture.

This joke is dedicated to all my Indian and Pakistani friends who have graduated
from the University of Aston in Birmingham England (U.K)


	 Title of the Joke:	     KOTHA/GADDA
				     -------------

Definition of KOTHA: In punjabi means donkey


A kind hearted American is faced with crises, his best pet a KOTHA
is sad and depressed for some unknown reason. He does every thing
to cheer him up but still the KOTHA remains sad.

As a last resort he puts an advert in the paper offering $10,000
to any person who can make his KOTHA laugh, People from all over
the world come to the try their luck, but still the KOTHA is sad.

Finally, a JATT from PUNJAB takes the KOTHA in a corner and 
mutter some thing in its ear and the KOTHA starts laughing.

American is amazed and very pleased so he hands the DESI guy the
reward money. After several weeks the AMERICAN sends a SOS message 
to the JATT saying please come as soon as possible.

On his arrival the AMERICAN tells him since his last visit the 
KOTHA has not stopped laughing and he cant get any work out of him.

Hearing this our DESI friend takes the KOTHA in the corner 
and does some thing and within a minute the KOTHA starts crying.

Seeing this, the AMERICAN goes on his knees and hands, he wants to
know the what the secret is.

DESI replies " PALI WAAR MAIN KYAA MERA LUN TARA TO WADDA"
	     (first time i told him my D-- is bigger then his)
             and he started laughing 
             "DOSRI WAAR MAIN IAAS NAOO KUD KAA DAKHA DITA"
	     (second time i just showed him) and he started crying.

		


						Tariq Sardar
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
From: dogar@rtsg.mot.com (Haroon H. Dogar)
Subject: Transliteration help?
Organization: Motorola Inc., Cellular Infrastructure Group
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 21:45:28 GMT


Change of pace.

Would someone be kind enough to e-mail me the correct transliteration
of Baichara (pityable one (as in Hai Baichara))?

Thanks,
-hd
5 Rivers Gun and Hunt Club
From: slbxk@cc.usu.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
Subject: Friendship Club
Date: 19 Aug 92 21:38:18 GMT
Article-I.D.: cc.1992Aug19.153818.58267
Organization: Utah State University



                   FRIENDSHIP CLUB

                   From the Editor
           -------------------------------


Dear friends,

     We are all far away from home, home town, home city, home
motherland. We each have the same dreams, dreaming about pursuing
a higher degree in education, accomplishing a wonderful task in
our own life, getting a satisfying job, climbing to a higher
class in life... But we feel lonely, terribly lonely, we need
friends, and love. Loneliness is like a killer, threatening us
every friday evening, saturday, sunday, holidays, even in daily
life. Why not let us gather together to get rid of loneliness, to
find ourselves companionship, to enjoy love or friendship! Let's
provide ourselves to the society and meet many people and choose
the one we want to be with, the one we love, but we have not met
yet.

     Good luck to all of you, dear friends!



                                       Editor


     P.S.

     For APPLICATION FORM please write to:

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
          --------------------------------------------
          |       FRIENDSHIP CLUB MEMBERSHIP         |
          |                                          |
          |               USU Box 1621               |
          |       Logan, UT   84322-0199  U.S.A.     |
          --------------------------------------------

     Or send inquiring by E-mail.
From: nazir@sw.stratus.com (Meer Nazir)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
Subject: GAYS in our society
Date: 21 Aug 92 18:08:03 GMT
Reply-To: me
Organization: Stratus Computer Inc.

In article <1992Aug21.151218.23727@prism.poly.edu>, ahussain@prism.poly.edu (Arshad Hussain) writes:
> >From: waseems@sco.COM (Waseem Siddiqi)
> >Subject: Islam and gays
> 
> >                     Islam's Hidden Homosexuals
> >
> >                               by
> >                          Zuhair Kashmeri
> >
> >                      NOW, July 30_Aug 5, 1992
> 
> 
> Nah!!!
> 
> I read  3-4 years ago an autobiography of  SANA HASAN -- an Egyptian 
> woman of very prominent family.
> The book is about her visit to Israel before the Camp David agreement.
> She describes with a great passion her love affair with a Jew girl while she
> was staying in  Israel.
> 'Enemy in the Promised Land' by Sana Hasan( Random House Inc. 1988) paperback.
> 
> As far as men are concerned, the famous gay was Sultan Ala-ud-din Khilgi(India)
> who had a decade long love affair with his slave Malik Naib. This kid killed
> the Sultan during an intimate hour. 
> The source of this story is Zia-ud-din Burni--- an official historian in 
> the court of Feroz Shah Tughlaq. 
> 'Tareekh Feroz Shahi' by Zia-ud-din Burni
> 
> Arshad

Do not go far away just read "YADOON Ki BARAT" by Josh Malih Abadi. This book
is an autobiography of Josh, he himself right about his family home and
Luchnow culture. About his college days and extra extra. I do not have the
copy here in states You can read this book and find above topic. 

MEER NAZIR
From: fmbutt@engage.sps.mot.com (Farooq M. Butt)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
Subject: Re: Mild warning18695
Date: 15 Aug 92 16:31:09 GMT
Article-I.D.: oakhill.1992Aug15.163109.17352
Organization: Motorola RISC Software, Austin, TX

In article <1992Aug15.021215.4971@gw.wmich.edu> 18627 writes:
>In article <1992Aug13.202831.1@mcclb0.med.nyu.edu>, ali@mcclb0.med.nyu.edu writes:
>> I dont understand either.  It seems to me that the readership of SCP
>> is obssessed with discussing Islam in its varied forms and sects and

.... deleted...
>> jahanara
>
>
>
>
>Dear Miss Jahanara,
>	
>	We appreciate your suggestion about not discussing Islamic matters . We have
>something to tell you. The basic fact lies as far as a human mind goes if it
>does not understand anything it comes out with some weird questions and doubts.
>Especially Islam or any other religion is concerned we believe that if a person ... deleted...
>Tariq, Anjum




Dear messrs. Tariq & Anjum: 

I don't think Jahanara was trying to tell you that you should stop discussing
Islam BUT only that, maybe, SCP is not the right place for solely 
religious discussions.  It really seems on SCP that Pakistani culture is being 
totally overwhelmed as subject matter by Pakistani religion.  By culture
I mean the arts, poetry, dance, music etc.  I like participating in discussions
about Islam but given the Usenet, it's kinda nice to be able to go to 
soc.religion.islam for that....


fmb
 
-- 
Standard High-Tech Disclaimer: NOTHING  in the above article has the slightest 
relationship to reality. If any reality correspondences are found, please 
notify me IMMEDIATELY. Any threats, abuse or stupidity of any kind is purely 
UNintentional. These are MY Opinions NOT my employer's.
From: memon@acsu.buffalo.edu (Naveed Siraj Memon)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
Subject: you can check out anytime you like, you can never leave
Date: 20 Aug 92 05:20:25 GMT
Organization: UB

From: arkay@leland.Stanford.EDU (Abdur Khan)
Subject: Northern Californian Gazzette

		>Departure of Farrukh Zafar and Naveed siraj Memon

>Two stalwarts will not be with us next month Farrukh and Naveed. according 
>to reliable sources Farrukh first stop will be the famous hair stylist
>"Tariq Amin" while Naveed will hit Buns road for a cup of "REAL TEA"


Are you actually telling me that there is a Buns Road in Karachi? I know
of Burns Road, but Buns :) :)  Rafay I think you are hanging out on
the beach too much :) 

My departure will be delayed by two weeks since my advisor wants a paper
published. But I can hardly wait to get the hell away from this miserable
life. 

BTW I am an expert at "REAL TEA", I am just dying for a glass of GUN-NA 


Naveed
From: hyder@cs.utexas.edu (Syed Irfan Hyder)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
Subject: Re: Contradictions of (so called) upholders of rights
Date: 21 Aug 1992 10:56:35 -0500
Organization: U Texas Dept of Computer Sciences, Austin TX
NNTP-Posting-Host: pageboy.cs.utexas.edu

In article <1992Aug20.205132.3130@sol.cs.wmich.edu> sherwani@sol.cs.wmich.edu (Naveed Sherwani) writes:

>I am not indiffernt, I am trying to establish some rights for
>females. We have to fight that injustice. But you see we must do
>that by educating people and telling them why it is injustice
>not by using laws of one particular god thay may not care about.

It is pleasing to know that we agree on the basic principle: 
That is,
 just because we can NOT 'logically' prove to ALL the inhabitants of
 this universe that we are 'right' should NOT be made a 'sufficient 
 reason'  to make us apathetic and stop us from fighting  'injustice' 
 
	AND

 to remain 'indifferent' till such time that we "DO" prove it 'logically'
 to ALL humanity.

You see we can never prove to Serbians through only power of "logic" that
what they are doing is "injustice". It is here that my argument comes
to fore. That is, logic is a tool. There are times when it is suitable
to use force of LOGIC. While there are times when one HAS TO resort
to "force" of EXPERIENCE and LEARNING. We did learn from the 
EXPERIENCE of WWII that remaining "indifferent" for "national security
reasons" i.e. rationality which commands us to look for the greater 
good of our own people at the expense of others, should be discarded.

In short, EXPERIENCE has a logic of its own, much superior to that of
pure philosophical reasoning which ignores "lives" and "living people" at
the expense of imperatives of hypothetical theorems.
From: azam@databusters.ag.ndsu.NoDak.edu (syed azam)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
Subject: Yoom-e-Azadi: 14th August
Date: 14 Aug 92 15:39:37 GMT
Article-I.D.: plains.19727


Dear Paistani Netters! 

Aap sab ko Yoom-e-Azadi Mubark ho. 

Aaj Pakistan ki paytalees-weeN (45th) salgira hai.

LONG LIVE PAKISNTAN!



Syed Azam.

-- NewsGrazer, a NeXTstep(tm) news reader, posting --
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#"GT*
`
From: ahussain@prism.poly.edu (Arshad Hussain)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
Subject: Muslim Gays and Lesbians
Date: 21 Aug 92 15:12:18 GMT
Followup-To: Islam and gays
Organization: Polytechnic University, New York

>From: waseems@sco.COM (Waseem Siddiqi)
>Subject: Islam and gays

>                     Islam's Hidden Homosexuals
>
>                               by
>                          Zuhair Kashmeri
>
>                      NOW, July 30_Aug 5, 1992


Nah!!!

I read  3-4 years ago an autobiography of  SANA HASAN -- an Egyptian 
woman of very prominent family.
The book is about her visit to Israel before the Camp David agreement.
She describes with a great passion her love affair with a Jew girl while she
was staying in  Israel.
'Enemy in the Promised Land' by Sana Hasan( Random House Inc. 1988) paperback.

As far as men are concerned, the famous gay was Sultan Ala-ud-din Khilgi(India)
who had a decade long love affair with his slave Malik Naib. This kid killed
the Sultan during an intimate hour. 
The source of this story is Zia-ud-din Burni--- an official historian in 
the court of Feroz Shah Tughlaq. 
'Tareekh Feroz Shahi' by Zia-ud-din Burni

Arshad
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan,soc.culture.bangladesh,soc.culture.indian
From: kazi@hercules.cis.udel.edu (Zunaid Kazi)
Subject: Bangladesh and State Religion was Re: Contradictions in Quaran
Followup-To: soc.culture.bangladesh 
Organization: University of Delaware, Newark
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 19:02:37 GMT

In article <16opidINN249@quality.hal.COM> sankar@hal.COM (Sankar Bandy) writes:
>In article <1992Aug16.153042.29951@cs.yale.edu> ahmed-shakil@CS.YALE.EDU (Shakil Waiz Ahmed) writes:
>>
>>Bangladesh has Islam as a state religion in the same way that the U.K.
>>has Anglicanism as a state religion.  It is the religion of the
>>majority.  Being an Islamic state would imply that Islamic law was
>>implemented (which it is not).
>>
>>-- Shakil
>I have been told by a Bangladeshi Friend of mine, that the word "ISLAMIC"
>has been incorporated in the (Bangladeshi) constitution during the Ershad
>era. The reason(according to him) was mainly to get aids from other Islamic
>countries, which would otherwise not be available to the same degree.
>
>Does this still not make Bangladesh an "ISLAMIC" country ? IF not what DOES ?

The changes brought to the constitution by Ershad [8th Amendment] was the
official sanction of Islam as the state religion. However this does not
imply the imposition of Islamic laws. Bangladesh's legal system is still
based on secular laws based on British common law. I would term Bangladesh
an Islamic country IF Islamic laws are are implemented.

Oops, I see that Shakil said the same thing in his original post, up there.
IMHO, I would prefer to see the constitution revert back to the original
secular form. 

I would have never thought that I would actually respond to this thread. :)
Oh well, please note the followup header. This is now solely of interest
to SCB.

>>> Sankar

= Zunaid Kazi
  kazi@cis.udel.edu


Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
From: mmokhtar@attmail.com (Mazen Mokhtar)
Subject: Maudoodi
Originator: mmdh@cbnewsf.cb.att.com
Organization: AT&T
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 14:10:25 GMT

In article <20AUG199218222451@vax2.concordia.ca> debchat@vax2.concordia.ca (DEB CHATTERJEE) writes:

> The poor will HAVE
> to remain poor IF Maudoodism is to exist in Pakistan. This is because the
> mass in that case will remain uneducated,

  Your logic escapes me. How does following the teachings of Maudoodi
discourage education?

  This claim is often repeated about those who are dedicated to Islam. For
example, the Islamic brotherhood is accused of the same thing, while education
is extremely high on their list of priorities and their successes in that
field are quite impressive. Most of them are very well educated and they
place great emphasis on the education of their kids.

  People sometimes forget that education is of utmost importance in Islam.
Any Islamic revival will necessarily lead to an renewed attention to
education, that is because Islam cares genuinely about education and
depends on it. Others barely pay lip service.

  Don't try to understand Islam through the experience of other religions,
Islam is like no other religion. Islam is Guidance, Islam is progress on
the physical, scientific, social and spiritual levels.

  Muslims flourished everytime they learnt Islam and followed it, and they
declined everytime they strayed from it. There are members of some other
religions who have had the opposite experience, but such is the nature of
truth an such is the nature of falsehood.


Regards,

Mazen Mokhtar

Xref: sparky soc.culture.pakistan:13977 soc.culture.indian:28920