HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: vpcsc11@sfsuvax1.sfsu.edu (student)
Subject: UN Lawyers Back Iraqi View
Organization: San Francisco State University
Distribution: alt.desert-storm
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 00:46:02 GMT


UN Lawyers Back Iraqi View - Attacks Not Authorized

The United Nations' legal department says it sees no language in
existing UN resolutions that would give the United States, Britain
and France authority to enforce the no-fly zones they have imposed
in Iraq - including the area involved in yesterday's [1/21/93]
incident.

The interpretation by the U.N legal staff, first reported
Wednesday, on whether the allies have authority to enforce the no-
fly zones came as a surprise and appears to bolster Iraq's case -
at least technically - that the coalition's actions may be illegal.

The allies traditionally have based their enforcement actions on
U.N. Security Council Resolution 688, which condemns the Iraqi
government's repression of minorities like the Kurds and Shiites. 
They argue that enforcement authority is inherent in the language
there.

But the UN interpretation is that because the resolution was not
enacted under Chapter 7 of the U.N. Charter, which authorizes the
use of force to maintain international peace and security, it
contains no enforcement power.

Even so, U.N. officials conceded yesterday that the advisory ruling
probably does not mean that the allies must stop using military
power to enforce the resolution.

"It's not our function... to tell a member state how to define a
resolution," one official said.

(Reprinted from SF Chronicle, 1/23/93, p. 2)

--
aaron delwiche
From: mcgredo@storm.CS.ORST.EDU (Don Mcgregor)
Newsgroups: alt.desert-storm
Subject: Re: American Raids on Iraq
Date: 22 Jan 1993 17:33:08 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Department, Oregon State University
NNTP-Posting-Host: storm.cs.orst.edu

In article <C198CM.D72@dcs.ed.ac.uk> mikef@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Mike Fourman) writes:
>In article <1jkvfrINN5vu@flop.ENGR.ORST.EDU>, mcgredo@prism.CS.ORST.EDU (Don McGregor) writes:
>> 
>> If you're going to bomb someone, make it hurt.  If you want to send
>> a message, call Western Union.  Colin Powell is probably right
>> on this one.
>
>I suppose this was the "justification" for Dresden. Remember bombs kill people.
>War is not a game.
>
That's why I'm opposed to doing things piecemeal.  If small attacks to 
"send a message" are serving no purpose in furthering the political aims
of the coalition, they're just senseless violence.

Which is completely orthogonal to the question of terror attacks on civilians,
which I've argued are counter-productive in the past.
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1993 15:45:36 EST
From: <TWZ101@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.desert-storm
Subject: Iraqi Aircraft Violations

      Some people in this group seem to be saying that the U.S. is being too
 rigid in its enforcment of the U.N. resolutions against Iraq, especially the
 flight bans in the north and south, and the actions taken against the SAM
 batteries and air defense assets in both zones.  In fact, the U.S. has been
 far too lenient.

      In U.N. Resolution 686, Iraq was forbidden from flying ANY combat air-
 craft anywhere in the country.  This was passed right after Schwarzkopf's
 Safwan meeting with Iraqi armed forces leaders, and codified into interna-
 tional law the cease-fire accords.  This document has NEVER been recinded or
 superceded by any other resolution or agreement.

      In April, 1992, after Iraq began flying combat air patrols in response to
 an Iranian air raid on a rebel base camp inside Iraq, the U.S. and its
 Coalition partners did ABSOLUTELY nothing to stop the blatant violation of
 accord.  As long as fixed-wing flights were kept out of the zone north of the
 36th Parallel (where U.S. and Coalition forces were protecting the Kurds,
 again under U.N. resolutions), they were left untouched.  Iraqi SAM batteries
 had in fact been located in this zone after the cease-fire, but were also left
 alone if they remain inactive (and thus not a threat to Coalition air patrols)
 and if they were not moved into "threatening" positions, i.e., if there was
 no effort to "net" them together into a dangerous air defense network.

      In late August, after Iraq began using its fixed-wing planes against
 Shi'ite cities in the south, the U.S. took action under existing U.N. res-
 oltuions which prevented Hussein from brutalizing his own people.  The south-
 ern no-fly zone was established, under similar conditions of the northern one.
 However, fixed-wing flights were allowed to continue in the central part of
 Iraq, again, in clear violation of Resolution 686.

      Hard on Saddam?  If the U.N. resolutions were really being enforced, what
 was left of Iraq's Air Force would be being sold for scrap in the souks of
 Basra.
                                        T.Z.
                                "Knowledge, was it worth such torment/
                                 To see the far side of shadow?"--G.T.
From: briand@anasazi.com (Brian Douglass)
Subject: Re: Iraq may use Bio Weapons againt Isreal!!!???
Organization: Anasazi Inc Phx Az USA
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 22:45:33 GMT

In article <63473@mimsy.umd.edu> biow@cs.umd.edu (Christopher Biow) writes:
>In article <1993Jan16.010523.1380@anasazi.com> briand@anasazi.com (Brian Douglass) writes:
>
>>As recently reported on Nova, Iraq chemical and biological weapons had very
>>poor shelf life.  It was nearly impossible for him to stock-pile his
>>weapons.
>
>Didn't see the report. If it were accurate, it would be
>a first for Nova programs on the military. In fact, it's not 
>accurate. Among other chemicals, the Iraqis are reported to have
>used mustard "gas" in their conflict with Iran. Although mustard
>evaporates (slowly), it is effectively immortal in terms of 
>chemical stabilty. Underwater, for example, it lasts for decades.
>North Sea fishermen are occasionally burned by mustard that they 
>dredge up for the sea bottom. That mustard comes from leaking 
>World War One (!) chemical munitions. 
>
>While not the most lethal of chemical munitions, mustard is one
>of the best for slowing down attackers by contaminating equipment,
>protective suits, streambeds, and swamps.

All of this is true IF the munitions are free from impurities that
destabilize them.  In the Nova report it was stated that Iraqi
manufacture processes put so many impurities into their Chemical munition
as render them with an almost 0 shelf life.  Hence the need to quickly move
them from manufacture to battlefield.

Their source was the UN Inspectors, the subject of the report.

-- 
"The best government of all is that government which governs the least."
	Jefferson
Brian Douglass		briand@anasazi.com 	602-870-3330 X657
From: HADCRJAM@admin.uh.edu (MILLER, JIMMY A.)
Newsgroups: alt.desert-storm
Subject: Re: no-flyzone
Date: 27 Jan 1993 20:55:53 GMT
Organization: University of Houston Administrative Computing
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: uhad2.admin.uh.edu
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.20

In <amartin-270193140413@lib102b-565556.lib.indiana.edu> amartin@ucs.indiana.edu writes:

> This is in response to the no fly zone....
> What right does a country, or an organization, have to partition another
> country
> up & then tell its leaders they can not operate in that part of the
> country.  

  The more hard-nosed among us might say "force of arms".  I suppose we need
a section of the UN charter spelling out the rights of the occupiers now.

> It is thier bloody country; not the UN's; not the US's.  It's time that the
>  arab peoples gained full controll of their own land back.
>     I don't condone the acts of Sadam Hussain but I can not support telling
> another leader that he is not free to operate in his own country.

  Look, folks.  It's not all that hard to understand.  Try it this way:

  Some individual (Iraq/Saddam) kidnaps someone (invades Kuwait).  The police
(UN/Coalition) capture the individual (Iraq/Saddam) and free the captive 
(Kuwait).  The criminal (Iraq/Saddam) must be punished.  So they are imprisoned
(sanction/no-fly zones, what have you).  There are rules to be allowed in order
to be allowed freedom again.  When the criminal (Iraq/Saddam) breaks these rules
or refuses to follow them, then the jailors/guards (UN/US and allies) impose
more punishments (air raids/no fly zones) and/or extend the jail time.

  It's really quite simple.  I am continually amazed at the general lack
of understanding the simple concepts of dealing with bullies and criminals.

> The US has too long of a history medeling in other countries affairs..

  Ad hominem applied to a nation-state?  Blah, blah, blah.  US actions in
the past have nothing to do with current debates over the rightness or
wrongness of actions in Iraq.


semper fi,

Jammer Jim Miller 
Texas A&M University '89 and '91
********************************************************************************
* Speak for my employers?  They don't even know I exist!		       *
*"Become one with the Student Billing System. *BE* the Student Billing System."*
* "Power finds its way to those who take a stand.  Stand up, Ordinary Man."    *
*      ---Rik Emmet, Gil Moore, Mike Levine: Triumph 		               *
********************************************************************************
From: BL.JYC@forsythe.stanford.edu (Jon Corelis)
Newsgroups: alt.desert-storm
Subject: Re: Raid Started
Date: 24 Jan 1993 12:25:59 -0800
Organization: Stanford University
Distribution: usa
NNTP-Posting-Host: morrow.stanford.edu

In article <727731421.AA08134@csource.oz.au>,
Alan.Sawyer@f158.n633.z3.fidonet.org (Alan Sawyer) writes:

> It is not good that some Civilians were killed but some could also be
> Propoganda(Remember the 'Guests' that were used as Human Shields?)
> and the troops that were killed have to expect than.And if Suddam was
> concerned about his Citizens than he should stop angering the US an UN.
> And during the strike about 20 Civilians died. How many of his OWN
> people and Innocent people died when Suddam  bombed and killed thousands
> of Kurds and Sheites? And what of the Kuwaities that died?? What did the
> do??. Look forward to your response.

   I think it's an index of how really indefensible our armed forces'
actions in Iraq are that the only way people can figure out how to
defend them is by coming up with two classic statements of moral
cowardice:  we're helpless not to kill innocent people because the other
side won't do what we say, and besides even if we're murderers we're
nearly not so big murderers as our opponent.

   I'm not a pacifist. There is legitimate need for waging war some
times, but this is not one of them.  And there is a morally respectable
defense for inflicting civilian casualties in time of necessary war.
That defense is:  civilian deaths are regrettable and should be
minimized, but they are acceptable and justifiable because they are an
unavoidable consequence of military action which we must undertake to
prevent our country from being ...  [supporters of the current vicious
insanity are invited to try to complete this sentence for the present
case in some way that makes convincing sense.]
From: dswartz@sw.stratus.com (Dan Swartzendruber)
Newsgroups: alt.desert-storm
Subject: Re: American Raids on Iraq
Date: 22 Jan 1993 15:13:28 GMT
Organization: Stratus Computer, Inc.
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: redondo.sw.stratus.com

In article <C198CM.D72@dcs.ed.ac.uk>, mikef@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Mike Fourman) writes:
> In article <1jkvfrINN5vu@flop.ENGR.ORST.EDU>, mcgredo@prism.CS.ORST.EDU (Don McGregor) writes:
> > 

[deleted]

> I suppose this was the "justification" for Dresden. Remember bombs kill people.
> War is not a game.
> 

Duh.  I'm glad you set us straight on this one, Mike.  We'd never have known.

-- 

#include <std_disclaimer.h>

Dan S.
Newsgroups: alt.desert-storm
From: mikef@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Mike Fourman)
Newsgroups: alt.desert-storm
Subject: Re: American Raids on Iraq
Date: 22 Jan 93 12:07:33 GMT
Organization: Department of Computer Science, University of Edinburgh

In article <1jkvfrINN5vu@flop.ENGR.ORST.EDU>, mcgredo@prism.CS.ORST.EDU (Don McGregor) writes:
> 
> If you're going to bomb someone, make it hurt.  If you want to send
> a message, call Western Union.  Colin Powell is probably right
> on this one.

I suppose this was the "justification" for Dresden. Remember bombs kill people.
War is not a game.

-- 
Prof. Michael P. Fourman                     email        mikef@dcs.ed.ac.uk
Dept. of Computer Science                    'PHONE (+44) (0)31-650 5198 (sec)
JCMB, King's Buildings, Mayfield Road,              (+44) (0)31-650 5197
Edinburgh EH9 3JZ, Scotland, UK                 FAX (+44) (0)31 667 7209
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Alan.Sawyer@f158.n633.z3.fidonet.org (Alan Sawyer)
Newsgroups: alt.desert-storm
Subject: Raid Started
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1993 17:27:50

To: yunus@leland.stanford.edu 
 On 01-13-93 ALL wrote to ALL... 
 
 A > From: yunus@leland.stanford.edu 
 A > Organization: DSO, Stanford University 
 A >  
 A > gamiteer writes: 
 A > >raid has apperantly started. 
 A > >12:40 eastern 
 A >  
 A > I don't understand why the U.S. is doing this.  As far as I can see, 
 A > Iraq has 
 A > not directly violated the recent U.N. resolutions.  If I am not 
     Well here is a few good reasons and Iraq has Violated UN resolutions. 
 
 DEC 27th:Several Iraqi Migs crossed the southern NO FLY ZONE .As a result 
     1 Mig was shot down. 
       
 Jan 5th '93:Iraq moved several SAM's into the Southern NO FLY ZONE. 
 
 Jan 8th: Iraq refuses to allow UN planes to land. 
 
 Jan 10th: Iraqi workers raid a Ammo  bunker in Kuwait territory. They 
 also took Four Silkworm Missiles.(And don't say they didnot know what 
 it was) 
 
 Jan 11th.Iraq sends workers into Iraq territory again.UN security council 
 warns Iraq. 
 
 Jan 12. Iraq continues demolition work on warehouses. 


 Jan 14th.100+ Allied planes bomb Iraq. 
 
  
 A > mistaken the 
 A > demand that Iraq remove its ground to air missiles was made by the 
 A > U.S. and  
 A > not directly stated in the U.N. resolution ! 
 It still broke the CEASE FIRE agreement. 
 A > Secondly, how can Bush go ahead and wage war on another country 
 A > without  
 A > consulting the people of the U.S. ?  That's against the constitution 
 A > if you  
 A > ask me. 
 I believe the American people would support them. The only concern they might

 have is the cost. 
 A > Thirdly, on the american tv newses they keep coming up with wonderful 
 A > reasons 
 A >  
 A > like : " what's important at this time is to show that our resolve 
 A > will  
 A > continue despite the change of President",  "Saddam Hussein is testing 
 A >  
 A > Clinton's resolve"  I say that's bullshit and just more excuses to 
 A > wage war,  
 A > kill innocent people, and commit anohter crime before going out of 
 A > office... 
 It is not good that some Civilians were killed but some could also be 
 Propoganda(Remember the 'Guests' that were used as Human Shields?) 
 and the troops that were killed have to expect than.And if Suddam was 
 concerned about his Citizens than he should stop angering the US an UN. 
 And during the strike about 20 Civilians died. How many of his OWN 
 people and Innocent people died when Suddam  bombed and killed thousands 
 of Kurds and Sheites? And what of the Kuwaities that died?? What did the 
 do??. Look forward to your response. 
 Regards, 
         Alan. 
 
 
... OFFLINE 1.40 * Gulf War MkII.Coming to a TV near you. 
 * Origin: The Enterprise <Line 1>, Karingal, Vic, +61-3-776-7089 (3:633/158)
From: chiquita@camelot.bradley.edu (Stephanie Buffman)
Subject: SIGH
Organization: Bradley University
Date: 23 Jan 93 04:55:23 GMT


god, sometimes I really miss Michigan.....
Being out here in the flat dry lands takes it's toll

Newsgroups: alt.great-lakes
From: chiquita@camelot.bradley.edu (Stephanie Buffman)
Subject: Re: SIGH
Organization: Bradley University
Date: 23 Jan 93 19:32:17 GMT

In <1js23eINN3mf@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> thumper@engin.umich.edu (Bob Topping) writes:

>In article <chiquita.727764923@camelot> chiquita@camelot.bradley.edu (Stephanie Buffman) writes:
>>

>  That's why God invented vacations!  Of course, I like this place so much,
>I actually refused to go to school anywhere else!  :)
>    Bob "Michigan, My Michigan" Topping.

You're right....and every vacation the only pace I want to go is
MICHIGAN!!!  generally the upper peninsula, too!
Steph
From: thumper@engin.umich.edu (Bob Topping)
Newsgroups: alt.great-lakes
Subject: Re: SIGH
Date: 23 Jan 1993 18:17:18 GMT
Organization: University of Michigan Engineering, Ann Arbor
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: cogswell.engin.umich.edu

In article <chiquita.727764923@camelot> chiquita@camelot.bradley.edu (Stephanie Buffman) writes:
>
>god, sometimes I really miss Michigan.....
>Being out here in the flat dry lands takes it's toll
>

  That's why God invented vacations!  Of course, I like this place so much,
I actually refused to go to school anywhere else!  :)

    Bob "Michigan, My Michigan" Topping.


-- 
@ "Our lives are better left to chance;  ****      PLEASE!  E-Mail to:       @
@   I could have missed the pain, but    ****  bob.topping@um.cc.umich.edu   @
@   I'd have had to miss the dance."     ****  phy_astrclub@emunix.emich.edu @
@  Garth Brooks, The Dance.   @>-,'--    ****     :::RETURN OUR HURON!:::    @ 
Newsgroups: alt.great-lakes
From: roy@med.umich.edu (Roy St. Laurent)
Newsgroups: alt.great-lakes
Subject: Re: acidrain
Date: 23 Jan 1993 22:29:51 GMT
Organization: University of Michigan Biostatistics, Ann Arbor
Distribution: usa
Reply-To: roy@sol.biostat.med.umich.edu (Roy St. Laurent)
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.biostat.med.umich.edu
Originator: roy@sol


In article <93022.181325BLL8@psuvm.psu.edu>, <BLL8@psuvm.psu.edu> writes:
|> The pH level of precipitation at Penn State on Jan 22, 1993 was 4.22.

... and in Ann Arbor, MI it was 3.3!
-- 
  
  -- Roy St. Laurent (roy@biostat.med.umich.edu)
Newsgroups: alt.great-lakes
Subject: Lake Ontario
From: hillary@ab.wvnet.edu
Date: 28 Jan 93 01:24:32 -0500
Organization: Alderson-Broaddus College

The stupidest thing I ever did on vacation was on a trip to New York.  I took a
swim in Lake Ontario.  That was the dirtiest water anywhere I have seen.  The
nuclear power plant near Pulaski should have given me a clue, or perhaps the
millions of tampon applicators from Toronto's sewer system lining the shore. 
My point with all of this is: is it safe to swim there?  I have heard that a
green glow at night is not normal  :)



						-hillary
From: robin@fisher.bio.uci.edu (Robin Bush)
Subject: Re: SIGH
Newsgroups: alt.great-lakes
Reply-To: robin@fisher.bio.uci.edu
Date: 24 Jan 93 17:33:11 GMT


Saw in the paper this morning that air fare from LA to Detroit dropped  
from its usual ($450) to $288.  Maybe now is a good time to book that  
MICHIGAN  VACATION we all are dreaming about. 



----------------------------------------------------------
Robin
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 18:13:25 EST
From: <BLL8@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.great-lakes
Subject: acidrain

The pH level of precipitation at Penn State on Jan 22, 1993 was 4.22.
Newsgroups: alt.great-lakes
From: cjt1@ellis.uchicago.edu (Charles Ten Brink)
Subject: Re: SIGH
Reply-To: cjt1@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 17:09:45 GMT

>chiquita@camelot.bradley.edu (Stephanie Buffman) writes:
>> 
>> You're right....and every vacation the only pace I want to go is
                                               ^^^^
>> MICHIGAN!!!  generally the upper peninsula, too!
>> Steph

This has got to be the most felicitous typographical error I have
ever seen.  Just got back from a weekend there, and the pace and the
place were wonderful, even if it was pretty gray.
--Chuck
-- 
D'Angelo Law Library         "The dogmas of the quiet past are
cjt1@midway.uchicago.edu      inadequate to the stormy present. . .
uclcjt1@uchimvs1              We must disenthrall ourselves. . ."
From: scvax@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu
Newsgroups: alt.great-lakes
Subject: Re: SIGH
Date: 25 Jan 93 10:19:01 CST
Organization: University of Kansas Academic Computing Services

chiquita@camelot.bradley.edu (Stephanie Buffman) writes:
> 
> You're right....and every vacation the only pace I want to go is
> MICHIGAN!!!  generally the upper peninsula, too!
> Steph

Me (us) too.  I've been married to another Yooper for ~11 years and we've
spent every one of our vacations in Houghton and Delta county. It is
a little strange when I think about, but we just don't have any desire
to go anywhere else.

Dave Huhta   huhta@kuxry3.chem.ukans.edu or scvax@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu
From: roy@med.umich.edu (Roy St. Laurent)
Newsgroups: alt.great-lakes
Subject: Re: acidrain
Date: 23 Jan 1993 21:12:53 GMT
Organization: University of Michigan Biostatistics, Ann Arbor
Distribution: umich
Reply-To: roy@sol.biostat.med.umich.edu (Roy St. Laurent)
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.biostat.med.umich.edu
Originator: roy@sol


In article <93022.181325BLL8@psuvm.psu.edu>, <BLL8@psuvm.psu.edu> writes:
|> The pH level of precipitation at Penn State on Jan 22, 1993 was 4.22.

... and in Ann Arbor it was 3.3.
-- 
  
  -- Roy St. Laurent (roy@biostat.med.umich.edu)
Newsgroups: alt.great-lakes
From: seloy@mars.lerc.nasa.gov (Pat Loyselle)
Subject: Re: SIGH
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: NASA Lewis Research Center
Date: 26 Jan 1993 13:33 EDT  

In article <1js23eINN3mf@srvr1.engin.umich.edu>, thumper@engin.umich.edu (Bob Topping) writes...
> 
>  That's why God invented vacations!  Of course, I like this place so much,
>I actually refused to go to school anywhere else!  :)
>           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^  
>    Bob "Michigan, My Michigan" Topping.
> 

Me too!         Michigan Tech.

And whenever I get a few days off it's north I go, usually to the
Petoskey area but to da UP when I get a chance.
----------
Patricia Loyselle                             seloy@mars.lerc.nasa.gov
NASA Lewis Research Center                    (216) 433-2180
Cleveland, Ohio 44135
Newsgroups: alt.great-lakes
From: spencer@ais.org (Spencer PriceNash)
Subject: Re: SIGH
Organization: UMCC
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 19:40:02 GMT

In article <1993Jan25.101901.46727@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu> scvax@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu writes:
>chiquita@camelot.bradley.edu (Stephanie Buffman) writes:
>> 
>> You're right....and every vacation the only pace I want to go is
>> MICHIGAN!!!  generally the upper peninsula, too!
>> Steph
>
>Me (us) too.  I've been married to another Yooper for ~11 years and we've
>spent every one of our vacations in Houghton and Delta county. It is
>a little strange when I think about, but we just don't have any desire
>to go anywhere else.
>
>Dave Huhta   huhta@kuxry3.chem.ukans.edu or scvax@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu

I see your point and raise you :-)  Seriously, my last two vacations
were really the *only* vacations I've had, or at least it sure feels
that way, and I've started them in the Houghton area.  Let me tell you,
it's certainly interesting to spend a few days hiking at Pictured Rocks
and having a few beers in the Keewenau, then sitting at the Florida
beach a week later!
-- 
Spencer PriceNash   spencer@spencer.ann-arbor.mi.us   spencer@ais.org
"This isn't a man who is leaving with his head between his legs." -- Quayle,
 discussing Sununu's resignation
Xref: sparky alt.dads-rights:3524 soc.men:23322 soc.women:23097 misc.legal:23381