From: kqb@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (kevin.q.brown)
Subject: Re: Sedatives and Neural Ischemia.
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 16:41:12 GMT
X-Crossposted-To: cryonics mailing list

    ------------------------ Forwarded Message ------------------------

> Date: 24 Dec 92 21:13:46 EST
> From: "Steven B. Harris" <71450.1773@CompuServe.COM>
> Message-Subject: CRYONICS & Barbiturates 

Ken Stone in message number 1496 says:

   >>Has anyone investigated the use of major sedatives to slow
neural function immediately before clinical death? ... I would
imagine that a lot of ischemic damage during cool-down (and
warm-up!) could be avoided by infusing sodium pentothal (e.g.)
into the blood before cardio-vascular failure occurs. Although
the idea is not without its problems (complications with revival,
added hassles from hostile coroners, etc.), I think the potential
gains from not having oxygen-starved neurons are pretty self-evi-
dent...<<

    And the answer is: yes, pentothal (sodium pentobarbital) is
given to cryonics patients during cool-down, and has been for
many years, for the very reasons you give.  

   And yes, needless to say, this practice has the potential to
cause hassles with coroners, and historically already has, in one
instance.  In early 1988 the presence of barbiturates detected
forensically in the autopsied post-cranial-remains of an Alcor
neurosuspendee went a long way toward instigating a murder
investigation and all-out attack on Alcor by state, local, and
federal authorities (yes, including our new-found friends, the
FDA).  The result was the search and seizure "sacking" of the
Alcor Riverside lab (twice!), the brief handcuffing and downtown
detention of some Alcor staff and one Alcor onlooker, many
threats by the coroner to thaw all patients under Alcor's care,
and finally, the flat refusal of the Board of Public Health to
grant death certificates to cryonicists for the next several
years.  It also led to zoning problems, PR problems, lost
records, many hundreds of thousands of dollars in legal fees
spent by Alcor, and (not least) the firing of the late Jerry Leaf
from his job at UCLA, something which did not exactly add to the
happiness of the brief span of life-as-we-know-it which Jerry was
to have left to him.  Actually, very few Alcor people close to
the center escaped the ka-ka storm caused by that trace of
pentothal.  For signing the death certificate of the afore-
mentioned barbiturated suspendee, for instance, and attributing
the death to various natural causes, one kindly but not-too-wise
Alcor physician (who shall mercifully remain nameless here) went
through an investigation by the California state medical board
that dragged out for four years.  

   So yes, to make the story short, barbiturates seem to have
quite a lot to offer in the way of neural protection, and yes,
they are still to this day being used by Alcor for that reason
(though for obvious reasons they cannot be given until death has
been officially and formally pronounced by the proper authority).
But yes, barbiturates also have significant social and legal
downside, since once given, it is often difficult to prove to the
skeptical just WHEN they were given.   You know how these things
are.  Even in a hospice setting, somebody can always ask if
something wasn't slipped in early so that everyone could go home
earlier.  We've paid quite a price for barbiturates at Alcor, and
no one can guarantee there may not yet be more to pay.

   Our competitor cryonics organizations, by the way, have
publicly pointed out the legal risks of using barbiturates, and
do not use them.  Surprise, their suspendees look just like ours,
despite the short-cut.  That's the one big problem with cryonics,
don't you know: no feedback.

   Here's an analogy I like: suppose that a surgeon on Earth is
doing an operation on a sick person on the moon, via virtual
reality and waldos ("telepresence").  It's pretty hard, since
there is an almost 3-second time delay to worry about.  Move the
scalpel, and you don't see the result for three seconds-- very
difficult.  Now: imagine the surgeon operating on someone on
Mars.  Now the time delay is (at least) 8 minutes, so you have to
do an entire ensemble of surgical movements, then wait a while to
see the effect.  Even more difficult.  Finally, imagine you're
trying to do a remote operation on someone on a planet of the
nearest star, 4.3 light years away.  Now you have to do the
entire procedure from start to finish with no feedback at all,
and then sit back and hope you did not leave out a stroke. 
Furthermore, note that under such circumstances it's nearly
impossible for many years to tell the difference between the job
of a master surgeon and the job of a nitwit, screw-up, or
imposter, because there is no feedback from the patient to tell
you.

   Now: what do you get when you have to do this kind of remote
surgical operation on a patient that is not 4.3 light-years, but
rather *100* light-years away?  Answer: you get something a
little bit like cryonics.....

                                      Steve
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