From: marek@moose.cs.indiana.edu (Marek Lugowski)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.poems
Subject: one two three four... / Marek Re: comment on the comment...
Keywords: pontificating
Date: 20 Dec 92 22:32:17 GMT
Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington

In article <4794@cruzio.santa-cruz.ca.us> jjwebb@cruzio.santa-cruz.ca.us
misuses the word "pontificates" and commits other misdemeanors:
>
>
>Marek writes about Wilson's "ode to a bitch" -- disagreeing with 
>Keymaster and pontificating thusly:
>
>> Forgive me for disagreeing, but "crap like this" is, to my taste,
>> supremely more palatable comparing to the hundreds of muddled,
>> unclear, sophomoric, unfocused poems of delicate love/longing we
>> see on rap every year, which are artless by comparison with this poem.
>
>so far ... conditioned agreement ... provided you are NOT 
>classifying ALL of the love poetry posted to RAP as muddled, unclear,
>sophomoric and unfocused ... 

I was very careful to a) ask for forgiveness, b) indicate my opinion
("to my taste"), and c) indicate the scope ("hundreds" vs. all, for example).
You are being very unfair:  I am not pontificating at all.

Also, most of what I write is love poetry to me.  I certainly did not
imply that my contributions to rap are artless in comparison to "Ode".
Thanks for allowing me to make this explicit. :)

>> Here are some reasons why I find this poem valuable:
>
>> 0.  It is honest (even if written as a prank).
>
>Honest? In what way? ... Maybe as honest as the work of 2live Crew,
>but that ain't very honest ... or is that why you made it number 0?

I cannot speak with first-hand knowledge for 2live Crew, but from
second-hand knowledge, why do you say that they are dishonest in their
work?  Do you alledge that they are undercover fund-raisers for NOW or
something?  Or, perhaps, they perform as Moral Majority's agent
provocateurs?  (sheila, help spell)

I made it 0. because a) I am a computer scientist and I don't care
what I start with in indexing; 0 is intuitive for me, and b) I thought
of it when I was on point 12 and thought "honest" should be higher up
in the listing and did not feel like redoing the indices.  One of
these days I will produce a list on rap that starts with -8 and see if
anyone complains.

Why is the poem not honest?  Self-consistency of "Ode to a Bitch" is beyond
reproach.  I won't even say IMHO.  (I never say that crap anyway.  It's 
obvious what is an opinion and what is not.  <-- opinion, IMHO)

>> 1.  It is vivid.
>
>Maybe to the Cyclops addicted masses, with their preprogrammed "Hill
>Street Blues" images providing the substance. Otherwise it is an
>impessionistic, neon lit, postcard of a poem ... 

There is no accounting for tastes.  Vivid to me.

>> 5.  Not much is wasted.
>
>I disagree ... much is wasted ...
>
>    "I want to fuck her.."
>this statement is superfluous in my opinion and wastes time ...

It's a lovely statement.  Think of it as the sacrament thingee in a mass.
You wouldn't want to go around editing liturgy, would you?  I'd hate to
see what you would do with Sunday service...

Besides, it clarifies and focus the intentions of the narrator.  He could
have, after all, desired to kill her.

>    "..reach in my pocket and.."
>    "I can feel.."
>    "As I start.."
>
>use of these words wastes opportunity ... stronger ways are 
>available. Rewriting these lines with more action oriented words 
>would make the piece more, to use your word, vivid.

Possibly.  I have not put all the possible juice into this lemmon, if you
get my drift.

>> 8.  It is tender.
>
>I'd hate to have to eat a STEAK you'd cooked Marek.

I am growing in my conviction (sort of like in facial hair) that you guys
out there JUST DON'T GET IT.  Tenderness is a matter of mystery achievement.
You need to work very hard, say your mantras, and see more and more in the
world around you, with a quickening eye, to see more and more tenderness.

This poem is tender.  But I can't make you see it.  You just have to work
up to it.

>> 12: The woman in the poem sounds nice.  I'd have liked to meet her,
>
>this judgement is based on ... what exactly?

It is based on a complex thought process that starts with the following
premises:  a) she is very attractive, if we take the word of the narrator,
b) she is a prostitute, if we take the word of the narrator.  In our
looks-oriented society, it is intriguing to me why a beautiful woman would
forgo the assured rewards of going to college and becoming a sorrority
woman, then a wife of a future important businessman or a doctor, or even
the glamors of Hollywood or even the recognition of the pornography business
for the thankless, dangerous, illegal mission of of prostitution.  I bet she
would be a fascinating person to talk to and befriend.  Or to marry.

>> At this point I would like to recommend _Naked Lunch_ by William S.
>> Burroughs, Jr. and _South of No North_ by Charles Bukowski.
>
>Hooray for Burroughs! Bukowski is an overrated, one note hack. MHO.

Your putdown of Bukowski is yours to exercise, nonetheless it throws me for
a loop, because I thought we agreed on important things. :)  That's ok,
I'll live.

				-- Marek


		one two three four, can i have a little more?
		(carmina wolframa)
		------------------------------------------------------

		
		_one (the frozen)_
		
		from aliferg
		wed may 23
		twenty three fifteen
		and 12 seconds
		nineteen ninety
		
		subject editor saved ``chris.tex''
		apparently-to aliferg
		
		you were editing "chris.tex"
		at wed may 23 23:15 on the machine ``iuvax''
		when the editor was killed.

		
		_two (the periodic)_
		
		yeah, we spotted him pretty quick, lickety split.
		and he has no alibi.
		
		what's his motive?
		
		who knows... the scum does not sleep nights.
		go figure.

		
		_three (the complex)_
		
		figure 3: a computational metabolism tiling in motion
		showing global determinacy arising from local
		
		indeterminacy.
		
		
		_four (the chaotic)_
		
		0  artificial life
		
		less than a thousand
		less than a thousand.





			coauthors

				one   The TeX Computer Typsetting Program
				two   The VI Unix Editor Deamon
				three Eric T. Freeman
			    	      Marek W. Lugowski
				four  Life Itself
				24 May 1990
				Bloomington, Indiana


(c) 1990 Copyright Life Itself.  All Rights Are Three Lefts In a Row.