From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: nd Nazis
Originator: news@nimaster
Reply-To: roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig)
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 16:46:59 GMT

In article <16B5E846B.NETOPRBL@ncsuvm.cc.ncsu.edu> NETOPRBL@ncsuvm.cc.ncsu.edu (Brian Lane) writes:
>I think what I find most disturbing about all this is the collection of
>problems that this invovles.
>We have lawrence on one side...who I assume is representing the general
>jewish viewpoint 

The hell he is.  If you'd seen the general response to Laurence in s.c.j,
you wouldn't be saying this.  

Laurence represents a viewpoint of stereotype, prejudice, and bigotry.
He represents a viewpoint that doesn't require evidence, that takes 
anything it wishes as corroboration and rejects the rest as irrelevant.
He represents a viewpoint that considers him an expert on all things 
German after a two-year sojourn there in which he failed to learn to
read sufficient German to understand a newspaper article.

>....i.e. the germans are guilty, their country should have
>disappeared, the germans of today are just as guilty since its obviously
>something to do with the german race that caused the nazi movement.

Damn few Jews think this.  Please watch what you're saying before 
"generalizing."

>I can understand lawrence's viewpoint to a point (no i'm not german and neither
>am I jewish, I'm american) (ewwww an ugly american!) *grin*  .  anyway, I can
>understand the anger that jews feel towards germans in terms of remembrance
>of history and of the pain they suffered during that time.  I cannot understand
>their need for the german people to now fulfill their demands for perfect
 ^^^^^
>racial tolerance and an almost obsequious admittance to the universal guilt
>of all germans for all time.  He's asking for something that most people
                               ^^

PLEASE!  Laurence Godfrey does not speak for Jews.  Not for more than
a tiny fraction of Jews.  His racism is entirely contrary to Jewish
principles of justice and mercy.

>(and germans especially, given their society and personality) cannot do,
>they cannot continually admit guilt and feel guilty about something that
>they personally never did. Eventually all you get are people who are resentful
>of the people who are demanding that from them.

No shit!  Look what happened after the guilt trip of Versailles.

>I think what lawrence doesn't recognize is that ALL countries have problems
>with racism, nationalism, and violence against outsiders. Look at the US or
>even Isreal. They both have these problems.  Isreal is made  up of jews, many
>of whom survived the holocaust. 

And Moslems.  And Christians.  

>But I still see the Isreali government
>treating arabs as second class citizens in their own country. 

I suggest you find out a little more about civil rights in Israel.  
Arab citizens of Israel enjoy all the rights of others.

>(and please,
>don't apologize for them by saying they feel threatened, I could say the same
>thing about germans in '32 and white americans in the civil rights era)

No, you couldn't.  Israel is at war with more than one country that has
explicitly stated its goal of destroying the Jewish state and killing
the Jews in it.  Israel has already defended its existence militarily
more than once.  Israel is constantly threatened by terrorists supported
by large Arab powers (and Iran).  

Blacks did NOT threaten whites in that way, nor did Jews threaten
other Germans in the 1930's.  The "they felt threatened" argument is
the stuff of the Holocaust revisionists and right-wing german historians
like Nolte, who are busy explaining away all of Nazism.  You do yourself
disservice by associating with them.

Now, having mistagen the "General Jewish" view of Germany, and shown that
you're pretty unclear on Israel's internal and external politics, would
you mind telling me just what Israel has to to with the views of Jews
*everywhere* regarding Germany and the Holocaust?  

Not all Jews are Israelis.  Not all Jews -- not all Israelis, even --
support the policies of the govenment of the State of Israel.  

>I think until EVERYONE finally realizes that people must be judged on their
>own merits and not on the color of their skin, or their country of origin
>we will always have people like lawrence and we'll always have problems like
>those in isreal and germany.

And every other country on earth.  Your goals here are laudable; but your
means are terribly misguided.  You are wrong about Jewish attitudes toward
Germany -- do you know how good German-Israeli relationships have been
for the last 35 years? -- and about Israeli feelings of being threatened
and about civil rights in Israel and about ther ebeing some special
linkage between Germany then and Israel now.  

Roger


Xref: sparky soc.culture.german:10146 soc.culture.jewish:25823