From: groucho!thinh@uu.psi.com (Thinh N. Nguyen)
Subject: [POL] Re: Re: Normalize w/ Vietnam
Originator: daemon@media-lab.media.mit.edu
Reply-To: groucho!thinh@uu.psi.com
Organization: SCV Relay
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 05:31:04 GMT


Hi scv netters:

This is my response to Max Becherer's reply on Nov 13-92. 

First of all, I think we made a little bit of progress. The only 
major different between us that worth discussing is the US trade 
embargo against Vietnam of which I believe should be lifted and you
think otherwise.

>!> 1. Does the trade embargo punish Hanoi or the already over-suffering Vietnamese?
> 
>     Yes, it does punish Hanoi.  The Hanoi regime has far more to gain from 
>normalized relations than do the Vietnamese people.  What little aid might 
>trickle down to the people is not worth the price of a stronger Hanoi regime.

I would like to ask who are you to tell the Vietnamese what is worth
the price and what is not? You, sir, is not the one that are suffering
and I doubt that you were ever experienced anything near what the people of
Vietnam have been struggle with for every days of their lives.

You keep saying that the trade embargo would make a stronger Hanoi
but never actually exam my reasons to believe otherwise. Let me
explain them to you once again. Just listen.

>!> I believe that abolishing the trade embargo would improve the human right situation 
>!> in Vietnam. Once the trade embargo is lifted, many American businessmen and 
>!> volunteers workers (especialy Vietnamese American) will flood the country with 
>!> ideas and thoughts of freedom and democracy. There will be more eyes and ears 
>!> to watch Hanoi's behaviors. 
>
>      Since when have American businessmen cared about freedom and human 
>rights ?  Last I checked, they have one, and only one concern: $$$$$$$.  As
>for volunteer workers, what makes you think that Hanoi will give them free
>reign to go wherever they want and do whatever they want ?  In case you've
>forgotton, Vietnam is not a free country.

I strongly resent this remark. Don't you patronize me about what I 
remember and have forgotton! How could I have forgotton that Vietnam 
is not a free country anymore when I experienced the whole painful
transition myself while most American were watching it on TV. How could I
not knowing what the condition in Vietnam is like when my relatives
keep decribing it to me in very miserable details?

Here is what I was trying to say to you:

Everybody knows that the objective of most businessmen are making money
it's the same every where and it's simple to understand. But in general, American
are more likely to care about things that bothers his/her conciences
than most European and Asian businessmen who tend not to get involved
with other people's business. May be you have been checking the wrong 
group of American businessmen or surrounded by less than typical American. 
For example, in Europe when a movie or a book that depicts an American who 
standups and defends the weaks without thinking about the consequences,
the typical reaction among my French friends including a shrug following
by: "Mais oui, il est American!" as if it's expected of him/her. Go on, ask
around among your foreigner friends and they will tell you. This is the
reason why Iraqis hate George Bush but not American. This also the same
reason the Vietnamese (in both the North and South) still very much respect
American the people. That is also the reason I stated that I hope the 
American businessmen and volunteers will bring the needed flow of ideas from 
outside. Come on, if you are an American, this is a compliment and it's true. 
There are also many respectable Vietnamese-American who still waiting for the green
light from the US government.

Before you want to change these people minds, even the communist leaders,
you have to realize that these people have been brain-washed for years
and it take time for the truths to sink in.  

About the volunteers, I don't know how much you do know about volunteer
workers such as those in the Peace Corps but if you ask, they will tell
you that when you are volunteers, you ask for nothing, you demand nothing.
You just do your best with whatever you can whereever you are and hope that
you can help as many people as posible. This apply to volunteers from
war torn and dangerous places all over the world such as Ethiopia,
New York ghettos or East L.A. and it has never stopped them before. 
There are already many American volunteers in Vietnam working right now 
including ex-GIs who are building hospitals all over Vietnam. You don't 
need the freedom to go everywhere and say anything to preach the words of 
freedom and democracy. Just believe it, live it, and it will 
spread everywhere.

By the way, just to prove that you have no idea what you were talking
about, I cite a paragraph in the orginal article by Carlyle Thayer
to prove that American can actually go to lots of places in Vietnam.

> This dramatic breakthrough was made possible through the efforts of
> American Ted Schweitzer, a former medical relief worker in Vietnam. While
> working in Hanoi Schweitzer discovered a treasure trove of material which
> had been kept stored in an army musuem. On a later trip he was able to
> bring in high-tech scanning equipment to copy thousands of pages of
> material, including photographs taken of American pilots, alive and dead,
> immediately after crash landing in Vietnam during the war.

I rest my case.

This is not to say that Hanoi is anywhere near being a decent government but
this is the best sign we have seen from the communists in a long time.

I also brought up another point to show you why I think normalize the
relations would help the cause of the freedom fighters in Vietnam.

>!>                         An US embassy in Saigon (HCMCT) would serve as an 
>!> excelent place for political disidents to seek refuge. How do we observe the 
>!> human right condition in a place when we are not present? How can we force 
>!> someone to change when we don't give them anything at all?  

But once again you side step the issues and make a bold prediction
with an "laisser fair" attitude:

>      It is not a matter of forcing Hanoi to change.  The regime is doomed,
>we should let it die and not give it the help it needs to remain in power
>any longer.

May I remind you, Mr. Becherer, that around 37 years ago, people like
you have told the Cuban the same thing about Fidel Castro's regime. Today,
the Cuban still waiting in Miami for a miracle while Cuba is still 
suffering under communist. I am sorry Max, I don't have that kind of 
patience and even if I do, I wouldn't bet the future of Vietnamese on 
a prediction even if it came from some one with infinite wisdom like you.

Oppressive regimes don't just die by natural causes but there are peaceful
way to change them. Didn't you see what happen to the Soviet Union? 

Let me ask you this. If your have punished some one by not talking to him
for more than 17 years and things still haven't changed, shouldn't you
try something else, like start talking to him.

>!>                                                          There are many 
>!> issues such as environmental protection, working conditions, education etc... 
>!> that require the expertise and dedication of the Vietnamese American before 
>!> it's too late. 
>
>      Most overseas Vietnamese will refuse to work in Vietnam as long as
>the communists are in power.  

Oh, you can do better than this.

I have no idea who you are and what you do but I suggest you should think
twice before speaking for most overseas Vietnamese. Unless you have 
reliable data to back it up, which you didn't, you have no right to 
make such statement. We are very capable to speak for ourself now.

Beside, the statement does not prove anything. I believe that most 
Vietnamese will find it's very hard to come back to work in Vietnam
even if the communists are not in power because it required a major
adjustment for them and their families. What you were saying I can do
the same thing and it doesn't mean anything:
"Most African American will not work in Africa ..."
"Most hispanic American will not work in Mexico City ..."
Do you see the point now or should I continue on. You have to realize that
most Vietnamese oversea now are also French, Canadian and American citizens.
It's not realistic for most of them to just go back to work in Vietnam.

I can tell you this much though, many overseas Vietnamese don't mind 
traveling to Vietnam and spend they money there to help the economy. Just 
look at the number of overseas Vietnamese who went back to their homeland in 
the last three years and you will know what I am talking about. And please 
remember that the number will make a big jump once the US normalize the relations.

I wrote and you replied:

>!> Human rights including the right to be fed, the right to have jobs and the 
>!> right to earn the wealth that you deserve.   
>
>     First of all, U.S. aid and trade relations will do little to remedy 
>these problems; it would be as stupid for us to send aid to Vietnam now 

Let me remind you that we are talking about lifting the trade embargo
only. According to the original article by Mr. Thayer, the US drew up
a four-phase road map for the normalization which span over a period
of time and include many check points and only in phase three that the
trade embargo would be lifted. Nobody is talking about sending money
to Vietnam yet. Please explain to me specifically why US trade
relations will not help the poor Vietnamese who has no job.

I think that a chance to export goods to the US would create jobs
in Vietnam. Further more, being the most competive market in the world,
the US market will force Vietnam to abolish the archaic state run economy system
for a more enterprise system just like the former Soviet Union did.

I have problem seeing your points because your keep repeating the same 
thing over and over again without an explanation or support for your 
thoeries.  You keep berating about how bad the communist government is 
as if you are the only one who knows. Go on, I am giving you a chance 
to convince me that you are right that is a lot more than most people 
would give me on this subject. Tell me something that I don't 
already know. You are not reasoning, you keep saying things everyone wanted 
to hear and reciting your propaganda.

>        I agree, but you must remember that any debts are owed to the 
>Vietnamese people, not the Hanoi regime.  If the United States were to
>hand over 4 or 5 billion dollars (or more) to Hanoi, it would benefit the
>Communists, not the people.  We owe the Communists NOTHING, not one cent;

Once again, we are not talking about giving money to the communists.
Why would anybody in their right mind give money to Hanoi anyway? If
you agree that you owe these people but you won't give it to them
until you see fit then I say you are making things a little bit too
convenient for yourself. What do you suggest we should wait for? 
Until Vietnam have new leaders with autodeposit feature on their Swiss 
bank accounts or until the condition in Vietnam get to a point that 
recovery is impossible. Let put your money where your mouth is Max. If 
your can come up with, say, only about 1 million dollars. I will find 
someone respectable to personally guarantee you that all of them will 
go into the needed Vietnamese and not a red cent would go to the communist 
leaders. If ex-GIs could build hospitals in Vietnam, I think there are 
many way to help the people directly overthere.

I, unlike you, can not punish the Vietnamese for their oppressive 
government nor use it as an excuse not to help them. There were many 
soldiers and leaders in the S. Vietnam army who fought and died 
bravely to defend South Vietnam even though they all knew that the
government was badly corrupted. Vietnamese all over the world are still
have high respect for these heroes because they did not let the corruption
stopped them from protect the Vietnamese to the best of their capabilities. 
That is the Vietnamese way. That was how we can put our differences aside 
to fight against enemies that much more real than a stupid concept from 
Karl Marx and mightier than poverty itself. I'll let Vietnamese history 
judges the communist leaders. I'll do whatever I can to help the Vietnamese 
because they really need help now.

On a more personal basis, I have reasons to think about the
issue a lot more than you did. I left Vietnam when I was too young to
do anything for her. I have been waiting patiencely for over 17 
years. I must do something while I still have the time and the courage 
to do it. I must do something before the 15 year old Vietnamese girl 
is too poor to save her dignity. I must do something before the 13 
year old boy is too hungry to maintain his pride. 

Few years from now, Mr. Becherer, you may find some other fashionable 
causes to give advises to but I still am Vietnamese. If I listen to 
you now and wait for 20 more years just like the Cuban and do 
nothing, how can I face my ancestors who fought to save my culture 
from the Chinese or my fore-fathers who died defending the land 
from the French. Whatever I have to do to get the US to lift the 
trade embargo, your misguided words cannot stop me nor could it 
stop the US government from doing the right thing. The reason 
I wrote this article and hoping for a rapid removal of the
trade embargo are because as a younger Vietnamese I need the blessing 
from the Vietnamese communities, and as an American I need approval 
from the US government before I go back to Vietnam.

If I have a chance to help Vietnam today, then at least, when I lie 
down with my ancestors, I can look them in the eyes and tell them: 
"I had tried my best." If someday, Vietnamese history will judge me 
as someone who did the wrong thing for the right reason then SO BE IT!

So you see, Max, to Vietnamese like us, the struggle it's a life long 
commitment that involved serious consideration and careful thoughts.

I had put all my arguements as clear as I can to you. I also realize
that we both have very much the same desires. Our differences are mostly
on the implementation. Since we both know that lifting the trade embargo
is inevitable, for the sake of the Vietnamese, I hope you are wrong. 


sincerely yours,
Thi.nh n. Nguye^~n