HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson)
Subject: Re: tearoom sex and bathroom police
Organization: Madison Academic Computing Center, UW-Madison
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 93 02:38:38 GMT


In article <TIM.93Jan11064708@ear-ache.mit.edu>
tim@ear-ache.mit.edu (Tim Wilson) writes:

>Here at MIT there is currently an ongoing brouhaha regarding
>tearoom sex.  [...]
>As you might imagine, a great
>deal of flamage followed on the lesbigay mailing list.

It would not surprise me if you find the discussion here
running rather parallel.

>I was personally surprised by the ease with which many
>contributors treated the problem as a theoretical one; there
>were subject headers like "How far to defend our fellow
>queers" and the like.  While several contributors were
>forthright and down to earth in their representation of the
>history and practice of tearoom sex, it never seemed to
>occur to a larger number of correspondents that some of
>their readers might have had sex in a bathroom.  Like me.

So indeed it is with many of the ways in which people
express themselves sexually.  After all, we have many long
traditions that are at base opposed to sex -- any sex.
Adding in what so many perceive as illicit about many forms
and venues, including those dealt with here, and as sure as
there are green apples, you will find LGB people who are
*extremely* puritanical.  Lots of them.  But it happens with
leatherfolk, B&D people, S&M people, tearoom people, and
lots of others.

I think of it as a kind of litmus test, finding out what
people think about this and that.  This is OK, I don't know
about that, and that's pretty bad.  My guess would be that's
what your mailing list showed.

>I got involved in the discussion once someone described
>those who had tearoom sex as scumbags.  I wanted them to
>know that this discussion involved real people.

Intolerance of difference: oldest story (and just about
the most discouraging one) going.

>Beyond the interaction between powers that be and lesbigay
>organizations, I'm interested in the response of the
>community in general.  I was taken aback both by the
>theoretical no-one-we-know-would-do-such-a-thing-so-why-
>should-we-defend-those-who-might and by the no-one-should-
>ever-do-such-a-thing responses coming from within the local
>community.  As the recent interactions with Cr*m*r and W*lt*r
>brought forth, education is often a wasted effort.  How does
>one approach similar attitudes within the community?

It seems to me that it's in everyone's best interests to
have a full, complete, and frank exposition of tearoom sex.
Patience will doubtless be called for.  Should be
interesting.

<> Birth Control is disgusting--people using each other for
<> pleasure.
<> -- Randall Terry, Chairman, Operation Rescue.
-- 
[Jess Anderson <> Madison Academic Computing Center <> University of Wisconsin]
[Internet: anderson@macc.wisc.edu <-best, UUCP:{}!uwvax!macc.wisc.edu!anderson]
[Room 3130 <> 1210 West Dayton Street / Madison WI 53706 <> Phone 608/262-5888]
[---------> Discrimination, Bigotry, and Hate are not Family Values <---------]
From: anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Dissertation on soc.motss (PLEASE READ)
Date: 11 Jan 93 03:27:16 GMT
Organization: Madison Academic Computing Center, UW-Madison

In article <1iqoamINN2d8@mizar.usc.edu>
adolphso@mizar.usc.edu (adolphson) writes:

>In article <1993Jan7.135645.27974@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> 
>dyarman@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Donald L Yarman) writes:

>> For example, what is the role of irony in soc.motss?  

>Irony in soc.motss?  Shirley you jest.

*So* hard to put that in a thesis, you meanie!

>> What problems arise with the difficulties of
>> marking irony in computer-mediated communication?

>Oh, I think a current thread makes clear the kinds of problems
>that arise.  I refuse to mark irony with smileyfaces.  If
>someone doesn't understand that virtually everything I write 
>here is meant ironically, then no amount of smileyheads will
>make any difference.

Don will probably want to include something on recidivists
who refuse to get with the program, huh?

Besides, Shirley, you can't mean the current thread to which
you refer *is* a problem or that it arose, unless you mean
rising as in gorge.

-- 
[Jess Anderson <> Madison Academic Computing Center <> University of Wisconsin]
[Internet: anderson@macc.wisc.edu <-best, UUCP:{}!uwvax!macc.wisc.edu!anderson]
[Room 3130 <> 1210 West Dayton Street / Madison WI 53706 <> Phone 608/262-5888]
[---------> Discrimination, Bigotry, and Hate are not Family Values <---------]
From: dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Different Strokes
Date: 5 Jan 93 02:00:25 GMT
Article-I.D.: spdcc.1993Jan5.020025.9157
Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting, Cambridge MA

In article <1993Jan5.002632.6499@macc.wisc.edu> anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson) writes:
>>All these cosmetics take up space that I need for my Preparation H tubes.
>>Otherwise, out of sight (and scent), out of mind.
>I was on the phone when I read this, caused me to whoop
>right into my friend's ear!  But inquiring minds want to
>know: does it really stop the itching and burning?  Or are
>you using it for a facial?

Honey, I pride myself on my swelled head.  This stuff gets put where I
need it, and where the label says it belongs.

>>Where's the gross intolerance?
>In my projection of your turning down a hunky prospect
>for having Oil of Olay on his nightstand, I guess.

Who said anything about turning him down?  He didn't ask. :-(

>Granted, but I think some of the stigma attending use of cosmetics by
>men does in fact derive, ultimately, from misogyny.  Remember when Corn
>Huskers (a not very good moisturizer and lousy sex lubricant) was
>getting big TV promos?  They always went out of their way to show
>rugged types, doing heavy outdoor work, and talking with that rather
>broad accent typical of the mountain West.

I thought of this too, which ties into the whole euphemism bit.
Personally, I don't have much of an opinion about therapeutic agents,
and I'd count lotions and creams for dry skin and chapped lips
as part of this.

>I'm not trying to strike a holier-than-anyone pose, but I mention this
>because I can remember (before quite a few of our folks here were born,
>probably) when I felt considerable disdain for things I identified as
>sissified.  This derived in part, I suppose, from the getting the shit
>kicked out of me almost every day as a kid by the old man if I would
>refuse to fight the local neighborhood monsters.  It took me some
>little time -- into my 20s -- to be able shed the prejudices of there
>being something not quite manly about men who used makeup.  But those
>prejudices remain not at all uncommon, not only among straight men, but
>among gay men as well.

I didn't say it was effeminate, I said it was preposterous.
Just because women in our society have the permission to
paint themselves, that doesn't mean that I have to applaud
when men who aren't drag queens decide to.  I think it's
apeing (to use Owen's vocabulary) already dumb conventions
and the stuff is usually ridiculously expensive anyway.
Frankly, I'd look askance at a woman who was inordinately
fond of cosmetics as well.

-- 
Steve Dyer
dyer@ursa-major.spdcc.com aka {ima,harvard,rayssd,linus,m2c}!spdcc!dyer
From: joe@spdcc.com (Joseph Francis)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Changing standards of female beauty (Is: the empowerment of
Date: 5 Jan 93 14:30:43 GMT
Article-I.D.: spdcc.1993Jan5.143043.4673
Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting, Cambridge MA

In article <72834@cup.portal.com> Furr@cup.portal.com (George Dalton Madison) writes:
>Jess Anderson writes:
>>So what's to be done?  All of us in natural cotton, no dyes,
>>no design, no frou-frou, sensible shoes, dirty skin, no
>>toothpastes, no hair conditioners, no (god forbid!)
>>haircuts.  Not only: where does it all end, but also: where 
>>does it all start?
>
>Sounds like a *damn* good start to me.
>
>Though, I concede, I wouldn't get rid of soap -- just the idea
>that a body that has been recently washed with it needs to be
>doused in some horrific synthetic odor to avoid "smelling bad."
>
>I wouldn't get rid of toothpastes -- just the idea that one's
>breath simply must smell like a patch of mint 24 hours a day.
>
>I wouldn't get rid of shampoo and conditioners -- just the idea
>that one will make you sexier than another.
>
>Definitely no haircuts or razors, though -- for anyone. [Except
>by prescription, perhaps.]

George, you should move immediately to Saudi Arabia, or at least join
one of the Primitive Baptist Cults. There's really nothing like the
old testament to really get those damn mixed fibers out of clothes.
-- 
US Jojo; damp, slighly soiled, but tasty nonetheless.
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson)
Subject: Re: Nominations for best Men's cologne
Organization: Madison Academic Computing Center, UW-Madison
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 93 10:59:58 GMT

In article <thaaang.726304466@cwis> thaaang@cwis.unomaha.edu
(John Dorrance) writes:

>The neatest perfume bottle I've seen lately is the container for
>Donna Karan New York Parfum; it's kind of a cross between a bird
>and a gilded penis.

It does sound clever.

>(I don't buy scents because I don't have taste in scents. If it's
>a perfume, I don't go 'Eww!' or 'Ooh!', I merely think 'Oh, a smell'
>and move on. I can't pick out a favorite because all such things
>strike me as variations on the same thing. I'm so hopelessly
>uncultured... is there a way to learn how to pick scents, besides
>going to a perfume counter with someone knowledgeable about such
>things and having them explain?)

I think it's like most sensual things.  It takes practice
and suitable conditions.  Perfumes are (should be, that is)
to smells as soft whispers are to speech or as distant gongs
are to music: subtle.  I think it's also somewhat a matter
of talent, in the way that one knows "what to listen for,"
without ever having been told, in a piece of music.  Putting
your nose up to the bottle is like shouting in a library;
you need a way to refer a very tiny amount of the substance
to your senses.  For actually testing for use on your own
person, you *must* put it on your skin (the underside of
your wrist is the usual place) and wait for several minutes
while it reacts to that environment.  The same oil on two
different people can smell almost completely different under
these conditions, very quickly.  Something that smells
intriguing or delightful at first might turn your stomach
after sitting on your skin for a few minutes; the converse
is also true, so don't be too quick to decide whether you
like it or not.  Like love, it needs a little time and space
to bloom in, eh?

-- 
[Jess Anderson <> Madison Academic Computing Center <> University of Wisconsin]
[Internet: anderson@macc.wisc.edu <-best, UUCP:{}!uwvax!macc.wisc.edu!anderson]
[Room 3130 <> 1210 West Dayton Street / Madison WI 53706 <> Phone 608/262-5888]
[---------> Discrimination, Bigotry, and Hate are not Family Values <---------]
From: black@lester.sybase.com (Chris Black)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Nominations for best Men's cologne
Date: 7 Jan 93 03:56:38 GMT

In article <1993Jan5.151643.7153@osf.org>, coren@speed.osf.org (Robert Coren) writes:
|> In article <1993Jan5.111541.5492@macc.wisc.edu>, anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson) writes:
|> > As to the admittedly outrageous prices (paying $15/oz for a
|> > substance that costs $100/tankcar) most of what you pay for
|> > is design and marketing.
|> 
|> And, unsurprisingly, the situation for perfume intended for women is
|> even worse. . . .
|> 
|> (for the aritmetically-challenged: $750/fifth = $30/oz, or very nearly
|> so.)

Note, however, that perfume is different from cologne, and is much more
concentrated.  There is also such a thing as cologne marketed to women,
and its price is more in line with the price for men's cologne.

FWIW, I like (and occasionally wear) Polo -- the one for men.

-- Chris
black@sybase.com
From: Furr@cup.portal.com (George Dalton Madison)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Nominations for best men's colognes
Date: Thu,  7 Jan 93 20:12:46 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
  <73068@cup.portal.com> <1ihlhiINNmdi@spim.mti.sgi.com>

Jeff Dauber writes:
>|> Joseph Francis squeals:
>|> [dreck deleted]  
>|> Just in the mood to be obnoxiously picayune and more than usually
>|> pointless, eh?  Go bury yourself.
>
>Just in the mood to be typically obnoxious and pointless, eh?

No, I think I'll leave that to you.

 
() Any clod can have the facts, but having opinions is an art.
-----
[> George D. Madison | NBCS: B8f+t+w-e+s+k+a!cv | Just say NO to razors! <]
[> It's a BEAR thing -- you wouldn't understand. <|> furr@cup.portal.com <]
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: henry@ADS.COM (Henry Mensch)
Subject: Re: Year of the Queer
Organization: Advanced Decision Systems; a div of Booz, Allen & Hamilton
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 19:56:58 GMT

jarvis@psych.toronto.edu (Brian Jarvis) wrote: 
->In article <C0MB65.Ln1@queernet.org> rogerk@queernet.org (Roger B.A. Klorese) writes:
->>In article <1993Jan5.225714.22900@gordian.com> mike@gordian.com (Michael A. Thomas) writes:
->>>What a maroon. The only reason that LA moved theirs is
->>>so that SF might reciprocate. Talk about giving an inch
->>>and taking a mile. Somebody needs to educate this moron
->>>that the gay world does *not* revolve around SF, much
->>>as he might think it ought to.
->
->>It is the observation of queerdom's most sacred holiday, the anniversary
->>of the Stonewall riots.
->>
->>EVERY CITY IN THE WORLD should observe it on the last Sunday of June.
->
->I don't see any smilies, but I hope to Gawd you mean this sarcastically.

why would you say something so silly?  

--
# henry mensch / booz, allen & hamilton, inc.  / <henry@ads.com>
# "fight the real enemy."  -- sinead o'connor, and many others.
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: norris@infonode.ingr.com (Jeff Norris)
Subject: Re: Pride rings going mainstream? (was Re: Pride Ring Colours...
Organization: Intergraph Corporation, Huntsville, AL.
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 16:44:44 GMT

nelson@reed.edu (Nelson Minar) writes:

>I still don't like the way a pink triangle looks, aesthetically. It
>doesn't look bad on a black background, really, but I still just don't
>like it much.

I don't really like the plain pink triangle, but I thought it was cool
when I saw a big dark-pink triangle on a black flag planted on the gay
beach at Pensacola this summer.  It was so... *visible*.

>So I was happy to find some *rainbow* triangles. I first noticed them
>in Portland as No on 9 buttons. The Oregon Peace Institute now sells
>them without "No on 9" on them. It's about 4 cm high, nice little
>rainbow stripes parallel to one side of the triangle (the top). I keep
>one on my coat.

I found a pin in St. Louis that has a rainbow across a pink triangle. 
(Kind of a "shooting star" effect without the stars.)

>My mother saw my wearing it, about three weeks ago. "Why would you
>want to advertise that? ... You know there are gay men who go out
>hunting for sex?" Bleah.

My mother was embarrased when my aunt noted that my "roommate" had such
good taste, I can't imagine what she'd do if I wore a triangle to a
family reunion.

jeff
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: paul@psych.toronto.edu (Paul Hastings)
Subject: Re: Different Dogs
Organization: Department of Psychology, University of Toronto
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 15:48:30 GMT

>In article <1993Jan7.034713.4858@thinkage.on.ca>
>kgdykes@thinkage.on.ca (Ken Dykes) writes:
>
>>In article <1icknkINN8pb@spim.mti.sgi.com>,
>dauber@tattoo.mti.sgi.com (Jeff Dauber) writes:
>
>>> |> If the dog doesn't awaken this neighbour, why would a phone call?
> 
>>> Because it will interrupt the sexual liason between the dog and the
>>> neighbor, cause the man to lose his erection and have to answer the
>>> phone.
>
>>what i want to know is how the dog barks with its mouth full?
>

Given that the dag is barking, it's probably the man who has the 
full mouth.  No wonder the dog was barking, probably at a rapidly
increasing tempo, ending in a soul-shuddering, hackle-raising,
hormone-releasing, tumescence-encouraging, pulse-quickening,
drool-producing extended triumphant howl of primal lustful but
hopefully not final explosive release.

Sounds like puppy love to me.
-paul

-- 
Blew Biyou     S6 b++ g l y+ z+ n+ o+ x+ a-u v+ j+
"Our Father makes art in Heaven, Howard be thy name..."
From: jns@elea.umd.edu (J. N. Shaumeyer)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Gay-bashing (was: Re: Private...)
Date: 10 Jan 93 23:00:56 GMT
Organization: Militant Homosexual Lobby, Gay Lifestyles, Inc.


Mara Chibnik (mara@panix.com) wrote:

My dear brother Rog [would you believe that *several*
of Brian's symphonies are now available in local
shops?] usually has a bit more on the ball than this,
but,
 
> roger@quantime.co.uk (Roger Phillips) writes:
> > > called out by a teenager in a group of about three,
> > > as I left work at dusk:
> > > "Ew, queer, eating a banana."
> 
> > > Well, yes, I was eating a banana.
> > > But how did he *know*?

Is there really so much mystery?  Was the dusk so
dark that he couldn't *see* the banana?  I mean, it
would have been more remarkable if you'd been eating
a banana and he said "eating porridge", wouldn't it?
Or were you particularly trying to hide the banana?
[Where were you trying to hide it?]

> anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson) writes:
> > Lips.  You can always tell by the banana-eater's lips.

Personally, I still think it would be easier to tell
by examining the banana rather than the lips, unless
Holmsian sleight-of-mind is your desire.

[Nevertheless, let's humor Mara:]
 
> Women too?

I would think so.  I don't see why women couldn't tell,
by examining the lips of the banana eater [carefully
ignoring the banana], just as easily as men could, that
the banana eater was eating a banana.

However, I still maintain that it was more likely that
Rog's pesterer noticed the banana, rather than Rog's lips.

--jns
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: coren@speed.osf.org (Robert Coren)
Subject: Clear and cold (was: kommotion about Krystal and Krispy Kreme (was Re: Bar etiquette))
Organization: Open Software Foundation
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 22:36:27 GMT

In article <1993Jan9.101016.25859@reed.edu>, nelson@reed.edu (Nelson Minar) writes:
> ObNonMotss - no lights in my bedroom tonight, because the way the
> moonlight is illuminating my teddybear is just too cute. Why is
> moonlight brighter when it's cold out?

Another possible explanation (besides the water vapor) is that, other
things being equal, clearer nighttime weather is apt to be colder.
Cloud cover, and probably suspended water vapor, reduces radiational
cooling (the earth radiating away the heat it absorbed from the sun
during the day); it cools off more at night when the sky is clear. So
it's really more true that "it's cold out when the moonlight is
brighter".

Sim, you are welcome to shoot large holes in my amateur meteorology.

--Robert
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: mara@panix.com (Mara Chibnik)
Subject: Re: Should I be doing this?
Organization: (getting there)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 11:34:11 GMT


jarvis@psych.toronto.edu (Brian Jarvis) writes:

 >It's a pity the Cabal *definitely* *does* *not* *exist*; I wouldn't mind
 >serving under an organization run by Mara.

It's clear he's never tried.  "An organization run by Mara" is a
contradiction in terms...

But you're all saying lovely things about me.  Thanks.
-- 

  Mara Chibnik
  mara@panix.com                Life is too important to be taken seriously.
From: mickw@autodesk.com (Mick Washbrook)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: read "AfterShocks"
Date: 7 Jan 93 21:15:32 GMT

In article <1ifcckINNql7@menudo.uh.edu>, babyd@protein.uh.edu (baby djojonegoro) writes:

> "AfterShocks", by Jess Wells, is a very well-written fiction about the  
> aftermath of a 8.0 quake in SF.  Faced with the destruction of the material  
>...

All you lovers of predictions out there might be interested to know that a recent
book I saw on the predictions of Nostradamus stated that the San Andreas fault will
go on May 9 (I believe). San Diego becomes a new coral reef, LA is destroyed, the
Golden Gate Bridge comes down. Luckily, San Francisco is evacuated beforehand
due to an accurate earthquake prediction by geologists.

Have a nice day.

--
Death to all fanatics!!

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.
From: msp@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu (Michael S. Pettersen)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Events to celebrate (was: Year of the Queer)
Date: 12 Jan 93 16:58:40 EST
Organization: The Ohio State University, Department of Physics

In article <1993Jan11.184924.6267@psych.toronto.edu>, jarvis@psych.toronto.edu (Brian Jarvis) writes:

> Stonewall
> was an important event, arguably the most important in gay culture as
> you and I know it, but I respectfully submit that Pride Day means more
> than just commemorating Stonewall.  A lot has happened between then and
> now, things with which I identify more closely than Stonewall; these events
> are worthy of consideration too.

This got me thinking about what else I would put on the list of things
which have happened between then and now.  

1. The advent of AIDS.

2. The 1992 US election, in which gay and lesbian rights became a
national campaign issue.

3. Harvey Milk.

4. The passage of the first gay and lesbian rights laws.  The election of 
the first openly gay and lesbian officials.  (Perhaps this isn't so
significant, or else I wouldn't have to look in the FAQ to find out
where and who these were.)  The decision of the Canadian court
concerning the military there.  The birth of domestic partnership.
The Danish marriage law.

5. The Supreme Court decision on the Georgia sodomy law.  Colorado 2.

6. The formation of gay and lesbian choruses, and all of the other GLB
cultural organizations.  (Were the choruses the first?  Did anything
along these lines exist before Stonewall?)

This last one actually seems quite significant to me.  I think only
AIDS is as pivotal as Stonewall, insofar as other events hinge on it.
What other items would people put on the list?  Bonus question: name
a pre-Stonewall pivot point.  (Yes, there are some.)

--
Mike Pettersen
msp@physique.ens.fr
Perfect love casteth out fear.