HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: marcs@slc.com (Marc San Soucie)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
Subject: Re: new year's resolutions
Date: 31 Dec 92 03:08:35 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Servio Corp, Beaverton Oregon, US

Gregory D. Surbeck (gsurbeck@eng.umd.edu) writes:

> Does anyone want to report resolutions for 1992 that succeeded (like
> the Century-a-Month challenge)?  That failed?

1992's resolution was to ride to work at least 50% of the days I went to 
work. I finished at about 55%.


> Does anyone want to share their cycling resolutions for the new year?

No less than 55% this year, preferably more.

Do some serious local bike activism.


> Happy, healthy new year to all!

And safe, too...

    Marc San Soucie
    Portland, Oregon
    marcs@slc.com
From: Howard.Gerber@f88.n106.z1.fidonet.org (Howard Gerber)
Sender: Jpunix@urchin.fidonet.org
From: casseres@apple.com (David Casseres)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
Subject: Re: Whatcha get for Christmas?
Date: 30 Dec 92 22:55:41 GMT
Followup-To: rec.bicycles.soc
Organization: Apple Computer, Inc.

In article <1992Dec30.121633.12996@waikato.ac.nz>, jrdodd@waikato.ac.nz
wrote:
> 
> Good grief,  you mean you actually *gave* something for Christmas?  I thought
> Christmas was all about getting! (at least that's the impression one can get).
> 
> Anyone else bless fellow cyclists with pressies instead of the other way
> around?

Yup.  I gave my almost-8-yr-old daughter a Specialized Hardrock Mega -- 20"
wheels, 6 speeds, hand brakes, knobbies, way-cool metallic purply pink
paint.  It's a success; far from being intimidated by the gears, she uses
them all, spinning up hills that used to bring her close to tears on her
old 1-speed.

I didn't get any bike stuff myself because, believe it or not, I pretty
much have everything I need right now (except that windtrainer...). 
Instead, my wife gave me a bread machine so I can eat a better grade of
carbs.

--

David Casseres
Exclaimer: Wow!
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
From: peterd@pjd.dev.cdx.mot.com (Peter Desnoyers)
Subject: Re: Bike paths (FROM Re: Cycling and Environmentalism)
Organization: Motorola Codex, Canton, Massachusetts
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 13:40:19 GMT

sstrand@u.washington.edu (Stuart E. Strand) writes:

>Before this discussion reaches the conclusion that bikeways (delineated
>lanes on roadways) and bike paths (separate from roadways) are more
>dangerous than conventional roadways, could we see the statistics that
>support this assertion?

Time to dig out Forrester's books... (I've got them at home; I could
post stats tonight if I remember.)

The explanation seems to be that bike paths only separate you from car
traffic on the safe parts - i.e. the straight stretches where cars can
pass you safely. Most accidents (except on unlit rural roads at night)
occur at intersections, where bike lanes/paths intersect the road
anyway, and put you in a more dangerous position than if you were in
the right lane.

Maybe everyone should compare anecdotal accident rates. I've had one
road accident (oil slick, no car involved) in the last 500-1000 road
miles, and one bike path accident (path blocked by pedestrians) in no
more than 10-20 total bike path miles in the same period. 

				Peter Desnoyers

[by the way, a completely unrelated data point - again according to
Forrester, dog/bike collisions have as high a fatality rate as
car/bike collisions. Intuition doesn't work well in determining
accident hazards.]

-- 
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
From: davevh@microsoft.com (Dave Van Horn)
Subject: Re: Seattle Metro busses to receive bike racks
Date: 26 Dec 92 08:36:11 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corporation

Chuck Anderson writes:

>I've always wondered what it would be like to have bike racks on the outside
>of the bus.  Who has to secure the bicycle to the bus?  Who's responsible
>if the bike falls off and is damaged - or worse, causes damage to another
>vehicle or the bus?  I always figured that was too big an obstacle for
>the transit organizations to surmount.

Seattle Metro did a telephone survey of bikes on transit systems nationwide
last year.  Having read the report, the strongest impression it gives is
that transit operators had many concerns beforehand, especially liability, 
but those who've actually tried allowing bikes on transit, inside or outside,
report that basically *none* of the expected problems materialized.
From: mackinto@oasys.dt.navy.mil (David Mackintosh)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
Subject: Re: Whatcha get for Christmas?
Date: 29 Dec 92 12:57:42 GMT
Reply-To: mackinto@oasys.dt.navy.mil (David Mackintosh)
Organization: Carderock Division, NSWC, Bethesda, MD

"Training for Cycling" by Davis Phinney and Connie Carpenter with
Peter Nye.  Perigee Books (Putnam Publishing Co.), 1992.

I had been asking my wife for this but hadn't seen it locally so didn't
expect it.  She found it at Crown Books.  If you've read most of the
other training manuals around (LeMond, Eddie B., Hinault) you won't
find much new in this book.  One nice thing is that it was published
in '92 so has pictures of Indurain from '91 and Davis in his National
Pro Championship jersey.

The 49 page prologue covers Connie and Davis's carreers through Connie's
olympic gold in '84 and Davis's '91 Corestates US Pro championship.
It's the best history I've read of the "Class of '84" and the 7-Eleven
team (I wasn't following cycling between '85 and '90).  Also interesting
was Connie's account of the competition between her, Rebecca Twigg,
and Jeanne Longo.

David Mackintosh
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
From: friedman@sae.com (Bob Friedman)
Subject: Eastern Tandem Rally
Organization: Software Architecture and Engineering, Inc.
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1993 22:40:57 GMT

Eastern Tandem Rally, a gathering of tandem bicycle riders will
be held in Williamsburg, VA, June 25-27, 1993.  Food and 
lodging will be on the campus of the College of William
and Mary.  If you are interested, send me mail with
your name, address, and a self-addressed stamped envelope
and I will send information and a registration form.

Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
From: "Michael Smith" <p00004@psilink.com>
Subject: Re: Cycling and Environmentalism
Organization: Performance Systems Int'l
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 01:18:26 GMT
X-Mailer: PSILink-DOS (3.3)

I've just finished reading two long and (as always) interesting posts 
from John Forester on this subject. As usual, I find that I agree with 
most of what Forester has to say, and I'm glad to note that the level of 
ad hominem billingsgate has ebbed (for example, no one's views are 
characterized as "religious"). 

A couple of points, however, do call for comment.

1) Regrettably, it seems that Forester cannot resist the temptation to 
distort the positions taken by his interlocutors.  For example, here's 
Forester: 

>   Environmentalists [...]
>advocate bikeways that make cycling more dangerous, slower, and with
>lower social status, in the expectation that this will encourage many
>people to cycle. They even advocate making cycling appear more
>dangerous than it is. Michael Smith has written that cyclists should
>fear being hit by cars because "of the existence of a significant
>social problem, namely our grotesque overreliance on cars, with all
>the evils that cars bring in their train -- waste, pollution, sprawl
>.... ," even though these factors have nothing to do with the cyclist
>accident rate.

And here's what I actually wrote:

>Fear may be reasonable but it shouldn't debilitate: this is the 
>constructive part of Forester's doctrine. Reasonable people fear 
>sharks, but only neurotics are so scared they stay out of the water.

>On the other hand, to imply that the fear itself is unreasonable or the 
>result of incompetence is not only insulting, but also effectively 
>denies the existence of a significant social problem, namely our 
>grotesque overreliance on cars, with all the evils that cars bring in 
>their train -- waste, pollution, sprawl, and a scandalous rate of 
>deaths and injuries.

Readers will decide for themselves whether Forester responded 
to my point, or to a different one of his own devising. 

2) The sweeping characterization of "environmentalists" is just plain 
wrong. Forester thinks I'm an "environmentalist", and I don't object to 
the term, but I certainly don't hold the views he inveighs against, and 
neither do many of the other sinister Greenies who have felt the 
Forester lash. It would be advisable to aim this implement more 
accurately. For example, Forester can berate the Sierra Club to his 
heart's content and I will cheer myself hoarse for him.


--Michael Smith
From: rossini@biosun4.harvard.edu (Anthony Rossini)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
Subject: Re: Bike paths (FROM Re: Cycling and Environmentalism)
Date: 3 Jan 93 15:07:47 GMT
Organization: Biostat Dept, HSPH, Boston MA, USA.


<I'm not going to include the messages leading to this - you should get the drift>

I've always wondered about the nomenclature, "Speed Limit".  From the sounds
of it here, it sounds like the speed limit is the *minimum* allowable speed,
as opposed to the maximum allowable speed or, closer to the truth, the
average speed (including stops, accidents, red lights, etc).  The impatience
in this society is just unbelievable sometimes...

For example, there is little reason to go full blast from stop light to stop
light (since on my bike, I'll still be averageing the same speed, even
though I stop at the same number of lights and don't, like some idiots (and
friends I know) proceed through red lights in the face of lots o' oncoming
traffic...)

What is wrong with travelling slower than the speed limit?  I recall
that in some states (and I can't remember just how many) the legal
definition of the speed limit is something along the lines of a suggested
safe speed to travel, with the laws being broken if #1: a person is going
faster, and #2: it is unsafe to do so (a very nebulous concept allowing
police to act as they feel).  Of course, safety is only assuming average
conditions (suitable reflexes, average condition car).  

I realize that something can be said about keeping society moving by moving
faster and faster, but perhaps it would be better for all of us if some
aspects of society were slowed down a bit...

> I find it interesting that the slow-pokes are the often the first to complain  
> about the bikes.

that's cause the fast-pokes either zoom around them or through them, either
way, they are going too fast to notice :-).

-tony


--
Anthony Rossini       -       rossini@biostat.harvard.edu
Department of Biostatistics, Harvard School of Public Health
677 Huntington Ave, Boston MA 02115  617-432-1056
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
From: kprender@jscprofs.nasa.gov
Subject: Re: Bike Club Survey
Organization: NASA/JSC
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1992 21:44:48 GMT

In article <1992Dec23.093751.1992@gnv.ifas.ufl.edu> wcf@gnv.ifas.ufl.edu
writes:
>			Bike Club mini-Survey
>
>How does your Bike Club:
>	Rate club rides?  i.e. A, B, C, what do the ratings represent, 
>		do ratings consider rider ability or ride difficulty.
>
>	Allow for differences in rider ability?  i.e. do slower (generally
>		newer) riders get dropped, does someone ride sweep, etc.
>
>	Attract new members and KEEP them.
>
>How would you rate YOUR club and what makes it successful.
>			************
>I'll collect responses and post a summary. Please post the responses or 
>Email them to me.
>
>					Thanks, Chris
>
Chris, we (the JSC Bike Club, Houston, Texas) have two main types of rides,
fitness and group. At fitness rides we provide maps and people can go at what
ever pace or distance they want. These seem to be popular but I think it
discourages more social riders who want to ride in a group setting. We normally
offer several different "average" speeds so that slower or faster riders can
ride together. We have had a really tough time though, getting folks to stick
to a pace  during the se types of rides.

The second type of ride, a group ride, has a published pace and distance. The
group normally rides at the designated pace and the group leader sweeps and
controls pace. If someone flats during a group ride the entire group stops and
waits. This is true for any other type of stop. 

We also offer an orientation ride to new riders. This is usually a slow paced
ride where the leader teaches the rules of the road, and basic riding
ediquette. This type of ride, however, is not offered as regularly and is
probably needed more. 

We also have some dedicated club members who make it a point to follow-up on
new riders. They call them to see how they enjoyed the ride and prompt them to
come on future rides.

I think  a key problem with keeping riders for us is the traffic flow in our
Area.   Our area is experiencing a growth boom and traffic in the last year has
almost doubled. We need to expand our ride repertoire so that we can find more
bicycle-friendly roads. 

I'd be very interested in your survey results. Good luck. 

Kelly Prendergast 


>
From: iglesias@draco.acs.uci.edu (Mike Iglesias)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
Subject: Re: Whatcha get for Christmas?
Date: 27 Dec 92 15:26:20 GMT
Article-I.D.: news.2B3DCB1C.6106
Organization: University of California, Irvine

In article <Bzvv1F.FFC@cs.uiuc.edu> tthiel@cs.uiuc.edu (Terry Thiel) writes:
>I'll start...a Pearl Izumi long sleeve Thermasof jersey and a matching
>jacket.

A 24t chainring for my MTB and a Performance long-sleeve jersey.


Mike
From: marcs@slc.com (Marc San Soucie)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
Subject: Re: Bike paths (FROM Re: Cycling and Environmentalism)
Date: 31 Dec 92 02:58:01 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Servio Corp, Beaverton Oregon, US

Gregory D. Surbeck (gsurbeck@eng.umd.edu) writes:

> 	If you read carefully, you'll see that "pure" roadies, those
> that train on roads, not paths, don't really disagree with the concept
> of bikeways.  They just don't realistically work for competitive
> cyclists.

It isn't the "competitive" cyclist for which paths fail, but the
"practical" cyclist. Bike paths just can't get you everywhere you may need 
to go, safety issues notwithstanding.

    Marc San Soucie
    Portland, Oregon
    marcs@slc.com
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
From: ae505@yfn.ysu.edu (Frank Krygowski)
Subject: Re: Safety and Bikeways
Organization: Youngstown State University/Youngstown Free-Net
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1992 16:40:47 GMT


Let me begin by saying: I've read the EC bible, I've taken the 
course (an abbreviated version through LAW), I did well enough that
I was asked to become an instructor, and I honestly believe John
Forester is correct in most of his beliefs.  The thing about 
environmentalism is pretty strange, but that's another post.

I commute by bike - not always, but often.  And here's my dilemma.

John may answer every objection to his ideas by saying "That's just
another example of the Cylist Inferiority Complex...", but in many 
cases, it's an insufficient answer.  Let me explain my current problem.

I've just been appointed to the Exercise & Fitness committee at my 
University.  About 8 or 10 of us will try to decide how to promote
fitness among faculty, staff, & students.  Our committee has weight
lifters, joggers, aerobic dancers, swimmers, and one bicyclist.  Me.

Now, I believe that it's obvious that the reason folks must TAKE TIME 
to exercise is that exercise is no longer a part of everyday life.
Everybody uses every possible labor saving device - TV remotes, 
snow blowers, elevators, power screwdrivers, and of course automobiles
WITH windows that don't need hand cranking - then tries to replace 
normal productive work with "fun" exercise.

I also think using my muscle power to get to work is time saving, 
environmentally positive, and in general so incredibly logical that
everybody should be doing it.  Except, of course for the Cyclist 
Inferiority Complex, or the Fear of the Road.  When I've mentioned
this to anybody, they're shocked that I can do it without being
shot, mugged, raped, or run over.  Hell, when I was the president
of our bike club, in spite of my surprising popularity (I was shocked.
They really liked me as Pres.) I couldn't get more than 6 or 8 people
to take part in Bike to Work day.  And these are CYCLISTS!

I KNOW that I should promote the idea of biking to work.  We've got
a city-center campus, a car parking problem, and a campus (15000 
students) with no more than 75 bikes on it at any given time. (!)
But I KNOW that the members of the committee are going to think it's
a foolhardy idea.  They'll be concerned about liability, too, I'll
bet.  And I know by experience that 95% of the university community 
will reject the idea outright, after less than 3 seconds consideration.

Yet this is too good an opportunity to pass up.

The question then: Given the fact that the public is (irrationally)
terrified of biking anywhere near traffic, HOW DO WE CONVINCE THEM
IT'S POSSIBLE?  This is like my wife's fear of spiders.  It's going
to take more than a logical presentation.

What do I tell my committee?

Frank Krygowski  ae505@yfn.ysu.edu
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
From: tthiel@cs.uiuc.edu (Terry Thiel)
Subject: Crosswords review.
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept. of Comp. Sci., Urbana, IL
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 01:16:22 GMT

	This is a review of the latest issue of Crosswords.  Crosswords is a 
home-brew type newsletter whose purpose is to cover RMulti-Purpose, 
Multi-Terrain BicyclesS i.e. Hybrids.  This newsletter is put out by Mark 
Chandler with the assistance of Eric House and Joshua Putnam.  Mark is very 
active on the net and has answered questions from many of us.  Crosswords is a 
newsletter and does not have alot of fancy graphics other than ads from a few 
manufacturers.  Despite the title and stated purpose of Crosswords I think 
almost any cyclist would benefit from and enjoy reading it.  Mark does tests of 
manufacturers equipment that are much more thorough and real world than the 
watered down pap in most of the cycling mags.  Alot of the mags temper their 
reviews because the bulk of their income comes from advertisements from major 
manufacturers and they have a tendency to keep the the big advertisers happy at 
the expense of their readers.
	I just received Volume 2 Number 2 of Crosswords.  The first article is 
a description of the Interbike show at Anaheim.  IUve seen alot on this show 
already but Mark tends to cover items of interest to Hybrid enthusiasts whereas 
most of the bike mags concentrated on road and mountain bikes.  The second 
article is a comparison of road and mountain bike mini-pumps.  Bicycling did a 
similar evaluation late in the year but this one is much better.  A detailed 
evaluation of each pump describes the pump itself as well as itUs performance.  
ThereUs more here about mini-pumps than I thought it was possible to find!  
Mark gives a really good evaluation of the strengths and weaknesses of each 
pump with a final overall evaluation.  The only U.S. mag IUve seen that comes 
close to this style and quality of evaluation is Velo-News.  Also the British 
Mag Bicycling Plus is quite good on evaluations but itUs not easy to find in 
the states.  The third article evaluates fat clinchers.  ItUs really hard to 
find tire evaluations in most mags and even though this one focuses on fat 
clinchers it should still be very interesting and informative to a road or MTB 
cyclist.  
Other articles in this issue are reviews of;
-Nike Nguba Off-Road shoe.
-Rim Rakes.
-Waveflo saddles.
-Alpinestar Team issue shoe.
	All in all itUs 12 pages of very useful and interesting and reading.  
Mark charges $2.50 for each issue and $4.00 for 2 issues.  Considering that the 
postage alone costs .52 cents itUs a cinch that Mark isnUt making any money 
here.  The address for ordering is;
Crosswords
P.O. Box 3207
Walnut Creek, Ca. 94598
Mark ChandlerUs e-mail address is chandler@wc.novell.com.  
-Terry
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
From: marcs@slc.com (Marc San Soucie)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
Subject: Re: new year's resolutions
Date: 31 Dec 92 20:24:52 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Servio Corp, Beaverton Oregon, US

jrdodd@waikato.ac.nz writes:

> (surrounded by 1000's of km of sealed, quiet country roads of varying
> terrains...just though you'd like to know).

Quit whining.

    Marc San Soucie
    Portland, Oregon
    marcs@slc.com
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
From: pardo@cs.washington.edu (David Keppel)
Subject: Re: Seattle Metro busses to receive bike racks
Keywords: Boulder's "prgressive" bicycle/bus plan :-(
Organization: Computer Science & Engineering, U. of Washington, Seattle
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 92 22:53:26 GMT

>[With bike racks on the outside of busses, who puts the bikes there
> and who deals with them if they fall off?]

In Seattle, the rider puts the bike there.  The rack is on the front of
the bus so the driver is supposed to watch to make sure nothing is
incredibly wrong.

Metro is not responsible for the bike if it falls off.  I don't know
who is responsible if the bike falls off and it causes an accident, but
obviously they decided they could live with the potential problem.

	;-D oN  ( Help me... I'm faallling )  Pardo
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
From: canderso@nyx.cs.du.edu (Chuck Anderson)
Subject: Re: Seattle Metro busses to receive bike racks
Keywords: Boulder's "prgressive" bicycle/bus plan :-(
Reply-To: canderso@nyx.UUCP (Chuck Anderson)
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 92 21:32:47 GMT

This reminds me.  I read in the local paper a while back about Boulder
Colorado's plan (a pilot program for the whole metro Denver RTD system).

They are selling permits to allow cyclists to bring their bicycle on the
bus.  Get this, though.  They will only allow one bicycle at a time on the
bus AND only on no-peak hours (outside of normal commuting times).  Pretty
useful plan, huh?

Oh, after your first pass expires, subsequent passes will be free.  Gee, I 
think I'll run right out and get one today.

I've always wondered what it would be like to have bike racks on the outside
of the bus.  Who has to secure the bicycle to the bus?  Who's responsible
if the bike falls off and is damaged - or worse, causes damage to another
vehicle or the bus?  I always figured that was too big an obstacle to for
the transit organizations to surmount.

--
  *************************************************************************
     Chuck Anderson                uucp    :         uunet!nyx!canderso
     Boulder, Co. (303) 494-6278   internet:         canderso@nyx.cs.du.edu
  *************************************************************************
From: reid@penguin.ocgy.ubc.ca (Ken Reid)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
Subject: Re: Bike paths (FROM Re: Cycling and Environmentalism)
Date: 22 Dec 1992 19:31:42 GMT
Organization: Dept. of Oceanography, University of British Columbia
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: penguin.ocgy.ubc.ca

In article <19921221.071155.364@almaden.ibm.com>, pershng@watson.ibm.com (John A. Pershing Jr.) writes:

> reason, you find *only* bicyclists on the path one day, you will find
> family groups (including very small children on trikes), hacks and
> tyros who can barely stay upright on the bike, with many people
> ignoring the center line, weaving back and forth, etc.

and

> essentially the same:  an intermixture of would-be racers trying to
> ride as fast as possible, family groups including 5-year-olds on
> tricycles, pedestrians, roller skaters, people who can barely balance
> on a bike, etc.

Perhaps there has to be some realization that in an urban area there are considerable
numbers of people, and if you intend to convert many car drivers to bikes, then you 
will begin to face the same problems with respect to bikes that we now face with cars.
I would be in favour of bike paths if they truly did give an incentive for people who
don't ordinarily bike, to begin doing so.
Ultimately there must be bicycle training introduced at an early age to alleviate the
problems that John Pershing writes about.  It should be part of the phys. ed. curriculum
in all schools.

ken
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc