From: rip@sequent.com (Paul T Taylor)
Subject: Re: Officer and Gentleman...
Organization: Sequent Computer Systems, Inc.
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 93 03:29:23 GMT

In article <AfFYr=m00XsF5Cm7tg@andrew.cmu.edu> Richard Iswara <ri0a+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
>Well, I guess there has to be digression.
>phantasm@iastate.edu () writes:
>> Greetings Richard...
>Hi to you to,
>>
>> Also to you rip...
>>
>> I would like to comment on this chivalry thread with something from The
>> Knights' Code...
>>
>>      ...At whatever you are working, try to win honor and a name for honesty.
>>      Never break your promise.  Maintain the honor of your country with your
>>      life...
>>
>> and with an excerpt from the Articles of War (1872):
>>
>>      Any officer who shall behave in a scandalous manner, unbecoming
>>      the character of an officer and a gentleman shall be CASHIERED.
>>
>> It appears that we have crossed over from chivalry to honor in this
>> discussion... And sad to say, war has progressed so far as to make modern
>> day dealings with the enemy no longer an issue of honor as they were in the
>> past...
>
>I disagree. I think today warfare is more civilized than in the previous
>times.

I hate to tell you this, but war was *never* civilized.  One group of
people killing another hardly is civilized.  It is, however, less
personal IMHO.  If we still had to fight hand to hand and get the
blood of our foe all over ourselves and perhaps slip on someones
entrails, I don't think we would be fighting very many wars.  Also we
can now kill someone clear across the globe without ever knowing
anything about them or looking them in the eye.  How civilized is
that?

>Conventional warfare, not nuclear that is. There are code of conduct
>in today's armed forces that is rigourously enforced. Treatment of POW and
>civilian on the majority is better in this century than before.

And what is the reason for this?  The Geniva Conventions.  We like to
think that we are more humane than our forefather, but are we really?

>In the an-
>cient times, this honor code is not enforced rigourously. A commander
>basically has the ultimate power on his soldiers, which is not true today.
>How many times have you read in history books about city sacking,
>atrocities that is commited on civilians by these "supposedly" chivalric
>knights? What happened to the atrocities that is "sanctioned by God"
>during the Crusades? What happened to prisoners that couldn't afford or
>has nobody that would pay their ransom? Slavery or death would most likely
>be their fates. Again, I submit that for the most part, conduct of war in
>modern times are more honourable than previously.

A soldier is a reflection of his society.  When our Great-great-great
Grandchildren look back at us, I am sure they will say, 'What
barbrians!  We would never do anything like that!'  At the time
sacking and burning was the order of the day.  No big deal.  Besides
you don't have to look that far back to find the exact same things.
The US has always 'Had God on our side'.  We have to save the world
from the Godless hordes.  Isn't that a Crusade?  Granted we don't put
POWs into slavery anymore, but I wonder how many POWs never made it
to the Camps...

>Like Rip would sez, it's more unfortunate to lose your life because you
>value your honour and fairness above all. Or worse, to lose hundreds of
>lives because you think of your own honor first.

Did I say that?  If I did I didn't mean it.  I don't think it is a
bad thing to die because you value honor and fairness at all.  It is
not a bad thing to die for something you believe is right.  I would
rather not *have* to die, but if that is what happens there ain't a
whole lot I can do about it.  I do agree it would be a shame for
hundreds of people to lose their live because of my own selfishness,
but if I thought my cause were just, and that it would be to the
betterment of humankind, then a few hundreds of people would not seem
so much... if those people believed in my cause also.

rip(just when you think you know a guy....)
-- 
Grab reality by the balls, and squeeze...
                                        Tempus