HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: 5912ramasubr@vms.csd.mu.edu
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Cal Eldred, ROY candidate?!
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 03:37:34 GMT
Organization: Marquette University - Computer Services
Reply-To: 5912ramasubr@vms.csd.mu.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: vmsf.csd.mu.edu

In article <1992Sep10.225347.28929@uwm.edu>, paul@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Paul R Krueger) writes:
>   Has anyone else thought of this? What about rookie pitcher of the year?
>   I thought Fleming would be a shoo-in, but when you look at the stats you
>   have to think of Eldred.
>
>   Fleming is 15-8 with about a 3.30 ERA (?) and Eldred is 7-1 with a 1.30
>   ERA. What if Fleming end up about 16-10 with a mid-3 ERA, while Eldred
>   is 10-2 with a mid-1 ERA? And what influence will it have if the Brewers
>   stay in the division race til the end with Eldred getting a couple big
>   wins?
>
>   Although I still think Fleming deserves it (ROY for pitchers, Listach is
>   the ROY in a landslide), Eldred has come out of nowhere to make it       
>   interesting. Especially if he keeps up his excellent pitching and Fleming
>   falters a little.
>
>   So what does everyone think?

As much as i would like Listach and Eldred to win the awards,
I am not sure if the double is possible. One thing
that may turn against Pat is that he is not the leader in
stolen bases though he may eventually win it. I think Lofton,
another rookie is leading it now. Though BA is also a vital factor
in the decision making process.
About Cal though , he is in with a real chance if he gets about 10 or 11
wins and the same microscopic ERA as it is now.


************************************************************
N.Ramasubramanian    GO BREWERS - BULLS -93  - HAIL 'SKINS

Politicians' statements tend to have a low specific gravity.
They carry less weight  than their volume would suggest.
		- Jonathan Miller
************************************************************
From: baseggio@deshaw.com (Franco Baseggio)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Clemens update please
Date: 14 Sep 92 18:21:38 GMT
Organization: D. E. Shaw & Co.

Could someone update me on Clemens's race for the Cy Young award?
How (and when?) were his last couple of outings?  How are the other
contenders doing?  (What happened to Valentine's updates?)

Thanks a lot,
  Franco Baseggio (recently moved from Boston area)
From: JIMBO@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Todays News (Rickey too)
Date: 13 Sep 92 01:38:05 GMT
Organization: Stanford Linear Accelerator Center

The San Francisco Chronicle Saturday, Sept. 12 (Letters)

"Why didn't Sandy Alderson throw in Rickey Henderson for
a dozen fungo bats and some pine tar to be named later?"

----------------------------------------------------------
 James D. Craft <JIMBO@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
 REMEMBER, WHEN THEY SAY THEY'RE KIDDING...THEY'RE NOT
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: niepornt@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (David Marc Nieporent)
Subject: Re: Todays News (Rickey too)
Originator: news@nimaster
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1992 08:48:00 GMT

In article <92256.201252RVESTERM@vma.cc.nd.edu> RVESTERM@vma.cc.nd.edu writes:
>i really don't see why the a's fans think they got such a bum deal.
>sierra is not exactly an awful player; admittedly, he's not canseco,
>but he's still pretty awesome, and an ace reliever and a fair starter
>thrown in to boot seems good to me.

Because Sierra isn't signed and Canseco was.  Sierra, as one of the top
available free agents, will get more than what Canseco makes now.  And,
as you said, he isn't Canseco.

Furthermore, that ace reliever is also unsigned, and isn't coming back,
and isn't really all that valuable outside the closer role.

And finally, that fair starter is at best mediocre, at worst pretty bad,
and is almost completely unnecessary.  (Certainly in the post-season,
the last thing needed is an extra starter.)

It's not that this deal was so bad, now.  It's just that it means the As
have given up on the future, since the trade is likely to end up as
Canseco for Witt.


-- 
David M. Nieporent   | Orioles 1992 World Series Champions
niepornt@phoenix.    | Mike Mussina 1992 AL Cy Young Winner
   princeton.edu     | Brady Anderson 1992 AL MVP
Vote Clinton/Gore '92.   Four more months!
From: mudcr@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu (David C Roller)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: sox and cubs records needed
Date: 7 Sep 92 18:47:36 GMT
Organization: Educational Computing Network

I need the records for the cubs and the sox 90 and 91 seasons (won loss)
that is the chicago white sox.  Please e-mail me these asap thanks
Dave Roller
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: twap8@isuvax.iastate.edu (Mike McNarney)
Subject: Cubs' Mike Harkey hurt
Reply-To: twap8@isuvax.iastate.edu
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, Iowa
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1992 19:09:41 GMT

Cubs announcer Thom Brenneman said in today's (Sun) radio pregame that
pitcher Mike Harkey fell down the dugout stairs before today's game
and blew out the tendon in his left knee. He has been transported
to Northwestern Memorial Hospital for treatment. The announcers had
no further information, only pointing out that Harkey seems to be
injured all the time. 
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: savoy@hg.uleth.ca (Jim Savoy)
Subject: Re: Personal Attacks on the Net
Reply-To: savoy@hg.uleth.ca
Organization: University of Lethbridge
Distribution: na
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 20:28:20 GMT


> zuhars@madrone.eecs.ucdavis.edu (Gary FDA Approved Huckabay) writes:

>Mark McGwire has thus far failed to respond to the cortisone shot he
>received earlier in the week, and may be out for the full season,
>including the playoffs.  He will play tonight against Seattle, and,
>hopefully, will not feel pain in his lower rib cage, but I'm not
>betting on it.

Does anyone one know anything about cortisone shots? Don't they simply dull  
the pain? And in the case of a rib-cage injury, wouldn't McGwire be taking a
great risk? If he swings his guts out and feels no pain, how can the rib-cage
muscle stand the force being exerted on it?

I was thinking McGwire should just stay out of the line-up for the next 4
weeks and hopefully make it back for the playoffs (if they make the playoffs,
that is). If he hurts himself tonight, he might be done for the year.

 _____________________________________________________________________________
     Jim Savoy          University Of Lethbridge         savoy@hg.uleth.ca

  Chris:   I'm really going to look after this ant, mum.
  Mother:  That's what you said about the sperm whale.
  Chris:   Well, you didn't feed it properly.
  Mother:  Where am I going to get 44 tons of plankton every day?!?
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: jhg8680@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Jon  Hamkins)
Subject: Re: Ugliest loss ever?
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1992 19:28:54 GMT

tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer) writes:


>Okay, *this* one rivals game 6 of the '86 WS!

>Scenario:

>1 out, bases empty: Blankenship hits a ball to third base.  Boggs,
>who was playing on the line, can't reach it.

>1 out, runner on first: Sierra gets behind in the count and hits a
>possible DP ball to Boggs.  Reed wimps out on the pivot, never making
>the throw.  (He had time to either throw or save himself.  Guess which
>he chose?  And he thinks he is being *under*-paid?  If he wants fan
>support, this is *not* the way to go about it.)

I saw the play, and I don't believe Reed had a chance to make the
relay.  It looked to me that if he had tried to make the throw instead
of jumping in the air, he would have been upended before letting go of
the ball, which could easily induce a late bouncer to first, or worse,
a wild throw.  IMHO.

If I were pointing fingers, they would mostly be at Zupcic.  Not only did
he throw over Reed's head, but it was a nonchalant lob.  The replays
only made it look even more ridiculous.

     ----Jon Hamkins  (hamkins@uiuc.edu)
         University of Illinios
         Urbana, IL
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: "Hugh Brodie (CCHB@MUSICA.MCGILL.CA)" <CCHB@MUSICA.MCGILL.CA>
Subject: Expo's Doug Simons' ERA Plummets (to 60.75)!
Organization: McGill University
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1992 17:26:45 GMT

Expo pitcher Doug Simons went into Saturday's game against the
Astros with an ERA of 216.00 (!). He had allowed 8 runs in 1/3
of an inning in 3 or 4 early-season relief appearances.
After two pitches against Houston, his ERA went up to 243.00.
He managed to finish the rest of the inning unscathed, thus
lowering his ERA to 60.75. By the way, he had a respectable
season at Indianapolis (AAA).


Hugh.

Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: rising@zoo.toronto.edu (Jim Rising)
Subject: Old A's Fan
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 21:49:19 GMT
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology

Ok, you guys.  I saw my first A's game in 1955!  Speaking of bad teams!
Vic Power (the only good palyer), Jim Finigan, Hector Lopez, Gus
Zurnial, Harry "Suitcase" Simpson--Wow, what a team!  Than that
SOB Finley took them to Oakland (at least he improved the team),
and I ceased being an A's fan.

For what it's worth, I think that the A's did need pitching help
for the playoffs (did they get it?); however, with what's left
of their offence they might not make it.  Watch Chicago.  I don't
think that the Twins have the horses this year.  Overall advantage
almost certainly Texas (unless Canseco gets hurt and one of those
draft picks is Ted Williams, Jr.).
-- 
Name:     Jim Rising
Mail:     Dept. Zoology, Univ. Toronto, Toronto, Ontario, Canada    M5S 1A1
UUCP:     uunet!attcan!utzoo!rising 
BITNET:   rising@zoo.utoronto.ca
From: RVESTERM@vma.cc.nd.edu
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Magic Numbers Explanation...
Date: 13 Sep 92 04:52:33 GMT
 <92256.170151JIMBO@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
 <1992Sep13.035918.3599@newshub.ariel.yorku.ca>

the way "magic numbers" are interpreted is sometimes pretty dumb...
in the recent "baseball weekly"'s, they say things like "any combination of
toronto wins and baltimore losses adding to 20 will result in toronto clinching
the division", while it's quite conceivable that toronto's wins and baltimore's
losses total 20, and a different team wins the division.

magic numbers don't guarantee a division win; they guarantee that the current
division leader finishes higher in the standings than the current runner-up.
From: psg+@pitt.edu (Paul S Galvanek)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Juan Gonzales (40+ homers before age 23)
Date: 13 Sep 92 13:19:50 GMT
Organization: University of Pittsburgh

In article <38005@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> demers@cs.ucsd.edu (David DeMers) writes:
>
>Mel Ott, who had some pretty amazing teenage seasons.
>

This comment and another I heard the during the Brewer / Orioles game, the
announcer said that Robin Yount started his ML career at age 18, got me to 
thinking. 

It seems that not long ago it was fairly common to see 17, 18 and 19 year
old kids playing at the major league level.  Now a days it's a rarity.
With guys like Yount starting their careers at 18 and playing 19 or more 
full seasons to reach their various career highs (hit, hrs sbs whatever)
is it realistic to expect the guys that come up today at 21, 22 or 23 years
of age to be able to approach the career numbers of the older players.

If you assume that most ball players aren't going to go past age 40 the 
guy that starts in the majors at 18 has a huge advantage over the guy that
doesn't start until age 24 when it comes to putting up career numbers.

How old wer Ruth, and Arron when they started?

PSG
From: spira@panix.com (Greg "Sarcasm Is A Way Of Life" Spira)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: The Monthly Cecil Fielder Thread
Date: 5 Sep 92 16:33:18 GMT
Organization: Boo!

In <1992Sep03.130920.14982@dlogics.com> trr@dlogics.com (Tim Ringwood) writes:

> He'll hit the ball to the right side with no outs with a man on second in a 
>close game. This counts against him by all the stats you guys have, but it is 
>good baseball.

If Cecil actually ever does this - and I'm very skeptical - this would
be stupid baseball.  Incredibly stupid baseball.

>Hell I have a math major, know stats theory okay, and I have come to believe
>that stats and baseball go together like George Bush and Hillary Clinton.

Yes, we know.  Stats like "runs" and "team wins" are totally irrelevant.
They should be banned.

Greg 


-- 
  spira@panix.com       "The one-O delivery to Fisk.  He swings.  Long drive,  
 cmcl2!panix!spira      left field!  If it stays fair, it's gone!  Home Run!"  
158-17 Riverside Dr.                     Ned Martin, 10/22/75   
Whitestone NY 11357          (Insert your favorite baseball moment here) 
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: rickert@NeXTwork.Rose-Hulman.Edu (John H. Rickert)
Subject: Re: Eldred still hot!!!
Organization: Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 19:00:01 GMT


In article <56117@olivea.atc.olivetti.com> rsmith@strobe.ATC.Olivetti.Com  
(Russ Smith) writes:
> In article <1992Sep14.215415.3858@cs.rose-hulman.edu>  
rickert@NeXTwork.Rose-Hulman.Edu (John H. Rickert) writes:
> >Yeah. Too bad Garner decided in April that the Brewers needed to have  
> >'veteran' pitchers in the rotation and sent Eldred down for another year  
at  
> >Denver.
> 
> Is that the official reason they started him in AAA this year? Seems to me
> that Eldred has a history of slight arm trouble that has slowed his rise
> to the majors, so I just assumed that the Brewers wanted to be sure he
> was healthy before they promoted him.

Oops. Sorry. Faulty memory. From Baseball America 4/25-5/9/92 p.28:
The addition of [Rickey] Bones temporarily aced out two righthanders who  
figure heavily in the Brewers' future. Cal Eldred and Mark Kiefer...
dispatched... to Denver to begin the season,...
"I didn't throw the ball as well as I could, but I'd like to think last year  
meant something, too," Eldred said. "I'm extremely frustrated. I'm tired of  
being patient."

This was what I'd been trying to think of. Eldred didn't really seem to have  
anything left to learn in AAA and he'd pitched well last Sept. Neither Eldred  
nor Bones pitched well in spring training, but maybe the Brewers needed to  
justify trading Sheffield. 
 From the starting starting rotation of Bosio, Wegman, Navarro and Bones 
only Bosio had a good spring. THe others all pitched about as badly as  
Eldred.

john rickert
rickert@nextwork.rose-hulman.edu
Brewers  magic #:24     tragic number: 14.
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: rickert@NeXTwork.Rose-Hulman.Edu (John H. Rickert)
Subject: Re: Stupid Injuries (was Re: Life  6.F)
Organization: Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 21:13:15 GMT

Distribution: usa

In article <1992Sep11.193144.18066@stsci.edu> rkidwell@stsci.edu (Richard C.  
Kidwell,mgr) writes:
[ <1992Sep11.164857.3696@island.COM> (Bruce M Hasch) citation reinserted]
> > This might be inaccurate, but I think Alan Trammell injured himself a few
> > years back when he fell of the stilts he was wearing as a part of a  
Halloween
> > costume.  Bet the Tigers management was just thrilled about that one...
I think that was Lou Whitaker

> Was it Ron Darling who pruned his finger with a hedge trimmer a couple
> years ago?
I think that one one Bobby Ojeda.

Regarding the Wade Boggs/ cowboy boots post:
I'd heard that he hurt himself putting on his socks
(a Red Sox fan'll probably have the 'real story')

john rickert
rickert@nextwork.rose-hulman.edu
From: f67700241@violet.ccit.arizona.edu (Greg Franklin)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: The Race for the AL Least: Tue, Sep 8, 1992
Date: 8 Sep 92 17:45:42 GMT
Distribution: na,local
Organization: University of Arizona
Nntp-Posting-User: f67700241

In article <44702@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU>, jtchern@ocf.berkeley.edu (Joseph Hernandez) writes:
> 
>       MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL STANDINGS FOR TUESDAY, SEPTEMBER 08, 1992
> 
> AMERICAN EAST
> Toronto Blue Jays     79    59    .572    --     z6-3    Lost 1  45-24  34-35
> Baltimore Orioles     77    60    .562   1.5     z7-3    Lost 2  36-30  42-29
> Milwaukee Brewers     74    63    .540   4.5     z7-3     Won 1  43-26  31-37
> New York Yankees      65    73    .471  14.0      5-5     Won 2  35-33  30-40
> Boston Red Sox        64    73    .467  14.5      6-4     Won 1  39-29  25-44
> Detroit Tigers        64    73    .467  14.5      3-7     Won 1  31-38  33-35
> Cleveland Indians     63    74    .460  15.5     z4-6    Lost 1  37-34  26-40

Looks like a hot and heavy race for last place in the AL Least!

Who has the inside track?  Let's check the starting pitchers for tonight:

  1) YANKEES pitch Scott Sanderson (11-9, 4.52) against Baltimore's A.
Rhodes (5-4, 3.96).  Sanderson is at a disadvantage pitching outside of
Yankee Stadium's friendly confines, but with the road-field advantage he
still has a good chance of falling behind early and earning a quick L.

  2) RED SOX pitch Matt Young (0-3, 4.85) against the Rangers' Kevin
Brown (18-8, 3.25).  Lou Gorman is obviously pulling out all the stops.

  3) TIGERS pitch Frank Tanana (11-8, 4.23) and Eric King (4-5, 6.02)
against Chicago's Jack McDowell (19-7, 3.14) and Greg Hibbard (10-6, 4.23).
Tanana has shown promise in a few games (most notably an 0-15 drubbing in
May at the hands of the Twins), but recently has been suffering from
sporadic bouts of effectiveness.  King has been consistent.  The double-dip
against a strong right-handed-hitting Sox squad ensures a quick start for
Detroit's quest.  They must make their move now.

  4) INDIANS are getting lots of flak from above; they pitch the All-
American Boy Jack Armstrong (5-14, 4.85) against Milwaukee's Rickey
Bones (7-9, 4.61).  Cleveland knew what they had to do to preserve their
edge (trade Swindell), but Bones has been having a remarkable year, 
perhaps driving the Indians even deeper into their slump.  A toss-up.
-- 
Greg "Mockingbird" Franklin      Interviewer: "Sir, how do you spell relief?"
f67700241@ccit.arizona.edu               Dan: "R-O-L-A-I-D-S-E."

"[George Bush is] the most ruthless white man in the history of the planet."
	-- Richard Ben Cramer, author of _What It Takes_
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: jdm42241@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Doug Mraz )
Subject: Re: Vincent quitting???
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1992 22:39:02 GMT

I heard it on CNN. Basically, Vincent pondered his status at his home in
Massachusetss and decided to resign rather than be a figurehead while his
lawsuit went on in the courts. HE says he did it for the good of the game,
rather than drag the sport through a lawsuit which he claimed in his letter of
resignation he'd still win. CNN mentioned former American League President
Lee MacPhail as a possible candidate, but he said he hadn't been contacted.
Owners will meet Wednesday to talk about a successor.

-- 
"How bad can the economy be if Michael Dukakis has a job?"-Rush Limbaugh
DA BULLS! GO BLACKHAWKS! WHITE SOX WIN, YES!


Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: gidi@Hilbert.Stanford.EDU (Gidi Avrahami)
Subject: Re: GET OFF THE BANDWAGON!
Organization: Brotherhood Of Breath
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 23:02:40 GMT


jeffh@pisces.sps.mot.com (Jeff Heilner) reacted:
>When did all of you *supposed* Oakland A's "fans" become so? When they  
>acquired all of their winning talent? And now that you feel a large piece  
>is gone, you no longer feel the team is worthy of your support?

I am not an A's fan.  Never was, never will be.  I just happen to live
in the bay area.  I used to like watching the A's -- now I like'em less.

The team doesn't have to be "worthy" of my support.  It just has to be
exciting and look like it's trying to win games, rather than make
money for Walter Haas.  I don't root for the A's logo, or the
elephant, or for Alderson's suit.  I try to concentrate on the
players.

>If this is true, then good riddance!!! 
>Don't hurt yourself getting off the bandwagon!!

I'll be careful.  And you, don't hurt yourself jumping for joy at the
departure of that horrible disruptive influence, Canseco.  If Sandy
keeps wheeling and dealing you might get him back in a few years, just
like you did Rickey.



--Gidi
From: paul@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Paul R Krueger)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Eldred still hot!!!
Date: 14 Sep 92 17:48:25 GMT
Organization: Computing Services Division, University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
Originator: paul@csd4.csd.uwm.edu


   Sunday, Cal Eldred and the Brewers dominated Baltimore 3-1. The line was
   9IP, 4H, 1R (earned), 1BB, 12K. I had read about the Boston hitters saying
   that he was the hardest thrower they had faced this and scoffed thinking,
   "Well these are the Sox hitters we're talking about." Well, after seeing
   Eldred for the first time Sunday, I have become convinced that he is for
   real. Boy did he have some pop on his fastball. Made several O's, and 
   Brady "90120" Anderson in particular, look real bad. Eldred's control was
   pretty good (almost always around the plate) and he had a sharp breaking
   ball (as opposed to Wegman's, which has a tendency to loop when he's off).

   Eldred has not allowed a run in 66 of the 71 innings he's pitched in and
   has only given up 3 runs in his last 52.67 innings. For the year he's 8-1
   with a 1.26 ERA. 71IP, 52 H, 21BB and 45K. Surely he won't continue to
   pitch this way, but with Navarro and Wegman he should give the Brewers a
   hell of good start to a solid rotation next year (assuming Bosio takes
   the free-agent route).

   Although the Brewers are all but out of the division race, it was nice to
   see the Crew try to take the O's with them.

   --salty
From: cs902060@ariel.yorku.ca (GEOFFREY E DIAS)
Subject: Re: Magic Numbers Explanation...
Organization: York University, Toronto, Canada
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1992 03:59:18 GMT

In article <92256.170151JIMBO@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> JIMBO@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU writes:

>
>The magic number indicates the point at which a team clinches the
>divison, not a tie. So using 162 is incorrect. Why would clinching a
>tie be magic. Another way of figuring the magic number is games left
>in the season minus number of games the second place team is behind
>plus one.
>

	The formula won't work for teams which have played a different number
of games. Take for example Toronto (19 games left) and Baltimore (21 games). 
The O's are 4 games back, and the Jays' magic number is currently 17.


Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: exby@pogo.Colorado.EDU (J. Exby)
Subject: Re: humid or dry air ?
Keywords: flight dist
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 22:55:26 GMT

rstimets@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (robert and stimets) writes:

>In article <1992Sep8.153130.20008@ucsu.Colorado.EDU> exby@pogo.Colorado.EDU (J. Exby) writes:
>>
>>This has probably come up in the "high altitude" research
>>on the distance a baseball will go .etc...
>>
>>All other things being equal, will a baseball travel farther
>>when it's hit in humid air (say 75%) compared to dry air (<10%) ?
>>My intuition says humid air, as it's less dense ?

>Less dense?  I'm no authority but I equate Humid air with Thick air.

yeah, and thats why you were accepted into a loosier-ville
university.  take a few science classes there if they offer them.
I knew all this chemistry at one time, but old age
and many beers are slowly draining my brain. 
;-)

>>Anyone out there who KNOWS, post or drop me email.  

>I don't know, but I posted anyway.  So sue me.

I could make another digression into indiana loosiers here too
but this is getting too easy these days...

::j