HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mec6@quads.uchicago.edu (rini)
Subject: Sexist and 50/50 (Was: Elle MacPherson causes rape?)
Reply-To: mec6@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 23:32:40 GMT

payner@netcom.com (Rich Payne) writes:
>mec6@midway.uchicago.edu writes:

  [much deletia as Rich drifts off somewhere else...]

>>If I say the proponderance of male CEO's is a sign of sexism, 
>
>Ah yes, sexism determinism by body count. An institution that will no doubt 
>be with us for years to come.
>
>>                 would not the appearance of an equal number of female
>>CEO's be a sure indicator that sexism is gone?  
>
>Only if you can determine the presence or absence of sexism by such a
>measure. The problem is that the body count metric is inherently sexist,
>and it is not a given that even with no sexism, that 50/50 male/female
>ratios would result.

Why is the body count metric "inherently sexist"?  

To the point, are there situations you can think of that exist today
where men and women participate in something equally and where the very 
fact of 50/50 participation is evidence of sexism?  (For clarity, let's set
aside the whole idea of "forced quotas" etc.)  I must admit that I'm
having a hard time coming up with examples to prove your point.

>>                                                    If I point to the
>>proponderance of female nurses and say it's a sexist world, would not
>>an equal number of male nurses indicate that sexism is gone?   
>
>No. 

Why?  

Is the answer to this at all related to your idea that an equal
reprentation of scantily clothed males and females in media would imply
double-the-sexism?

What would a totally non-sexist USA look like to you Rich?

rini
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
From: payner@netcom.com (Rich Payne)
Subject: Re: Elle MacPherson causes rape?
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 14:33:10 GMT

In article <1992Nov18.022452.14806@midway.uchicago.edu> mec6@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>payner@netcom.com (Rich Payne) writes:
> 
>>Rini has problems with being told what to post. I bet she has similar 
>>problems being told where to direct her posts. 
>
>Once again, you lie.

Poor rini, this is the best she can do.

-This- is pathetic. And so sad...
 
>rini


Rich

payner@netcom.com


Newsgroups: alt.feminism
From: linden@positive.Eng.Sun.COM (Trelford Yates Pinkerton)
Newsgroups: alt.feminism,alt.folklore.urban
Subject: Re: MacKinnon claims she Suffers Snuff Harassment
Date: 23 Nov 92 04:43:26 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Mt. View, Ca.
NNTP-Posting-Host: positive

> Snuff films do exist indeed.  Although I have never viewed one...
> The titles are "Faces of Death I, II, .."  On the cover jacket each 
> tells that the video contains scenes of actual murders, executions, ect.

That's quite a bold existence proof to make, without even personally
viewing or even examining the evidence.   

As it happens, I have an equal (or better) proof that you are a mendacious 
naive idiot.  


     Trelford

--
   "Call me Ishmael"  Again and again I left a pleading message on the Captain's
   answering machine.  But he never did return my call, so I gave up whaling
   and became a computer programmer.   [Vol 1, "Moby Frob"]
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
From: Will Steeves <goid@zooid.guild.org>
Subject: Re: Feminist Jokes
X-To: DAVID S. AUER
Organization: The Zoo of Ids
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1992 22:12:00 GMT

auer@cs.swarthmore.edu (David S. Auer) writes...
DSA> In article <JIM.92Oct27222122@fuji.eng.yale.edu> jim@fuji.eng.yale.edu (Jam
DSA>  Szinger) writes:
DSA> >>>>Q: How many feminists does it take to change a light bulb?
DSA> >
DSA> >I haven't seen my favorite answer yet:
DSA> >
DSA> >Four.  One to change the bulb, one to complain that the bulb is
DSA> >violating the socket, one to secretly wish she were the socket,
DSA> >and one to secretly wish she were the bulb.

(Lines deleted...)

DSA> Search your hearts.  From there springs the truth.  Those who are
DSA> anti-feminists ignore their hearts cries for justice or ignore their senses
DSA> which tell them women are opressed.  Either way, anti-feminists diminish
DSA> themselves.

Ah, but would you say the same thing to feminists who oppose men's rights groups

---
Will Steeves, goid@zooid.guild.org                      "Neil Hull is GOiD"
ZOOiD BBS, Toronto, Ontario - The Zoo Of Ids            "GOiDS Rule"
(416) 322-7876

"Cthulhu for President in '92 - Why vote for the _lesser_ of two evils?"
                                                          - Bronis Vidugiris
---
 * SLMR 2.1a * Sex and Rock n' Roll...the CANADIAN way...
From: wiles@iscsvax.uni.edu
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
Subject: Riot Grrrls
Date: 20 Nov 92 16:21:26 -0600
Organization: University of Northern Iowa

This was a very interesting article.  I dig the Riot Grrrls.  They seem
together to me.  I hope this list will pick up on that article and start
writing about them.
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
From: dsteinbe@nmsu.edu (David Steinberg)
Subject: Re: sex in the good ol' days
Organization: New Mexico State University
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 15:30:32 GMT

In article <1992Nov16.061232.2526@netcom.com> barry@netcom.com (Kenn Barry) writes:
>
> I've a book from the same period
>called _What A Young Man Ought to Know_ on the same general topic, but
>addressed to young men. The extremity of viewpoint is no less, it just
>doesn't have that suggestion of being for the amusement of modern eyes.
>If anyone's interested I can pluck a few choice quotes and post 'em.
>
>						Kayembee

Please do.

-David "ZZYZX" Steinberg- King of the ellipses
       (dsteinbe@emmy.nmsu.edu)
**********************************************************************
*"There's a dog in the station  *"I can't believe I'm a junior and a *
* With a bad reputation         * film major, when all I really      *
* That's a sign of the nation's * wanted in this life was to marry a *
* Decay"                        * lobsterman and cook fish."         *
* -Phish                        * -a letter from Christie Searing    *
**********************************************************************
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
From: shekhar@zeus.tamu.edu (SHARAT SHEKHAR)
Subject: WOMEN OF THE WORLD ......
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: Texas A&M University, Academic Computing Services
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 00:17:00 GMT

	WOMEN OF THE WORLD ...... UNITE .... RISE FROM THE BEDS OF YOUR
	OPPRESSORS ............













	..... AND GO MAKE US BREAKFAST !!!!!



	Flames Cheerfully acknowledged if submitted in the proper format 
with the obligatory $1.50 (+ Tax) Flaming Fee.


===============================================================================
		MAY the NY GIANTS WIN THE SUPERBOWL
===============================================================================
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
From: mec6@quads.uchicago.edu (rini)
Subject: Re: Elle MacPherson causes rape?
Reply-To: mec6@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 00:47:55 GMT

misdeva@yalevm.ycc.yale.edu (Devjani Mishra) writes:
>payner@netcom.com (Rich Payne) wrote:
>>mec6@midway.uchicago.edu writes:

>>Boy, I sure hope we don't get into a discussion of rape seed oil.
>
>Sorry, rini.  Tangent time.

Oh no!
 
>> I believe they are marketing it as 'canoli' oil, or somesuch. Who would
>> buy a product with such strong negative associations in the name? Since
>> neither the oil or the seed have anything to do with the act, I see no
>> ethical problems with changing it.
 
>Rape seed oil is one of the items included in our incipient tariff war with
>France, and they are referring to it as such.

Well, I hope we all go into this discussion cognizant of the fact that
this will all be noted in Rich's updated grep output....!  :)

rini
-It's "canolA" oil.  I don't know if it is renamed rape seed oil or not.
The rape plant is a turnip type thing.
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
From: quilty@titan.ucc.umass.edu (Humberto Humbertoldi)
Subject: Re: Choice?
Keywords: abortion, pornography
Organization: University of Massachusetts, Amherst
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1992 02:39:57 GMT

In article <1992Nov20.205305.19674@microsoft.com> jenk@microsoft.com (Jen Kilmer) writes:

>Which "feminists" are you speaking of? The only "feminist" I 
>know who is against women participating in or enjoying "pornography"
>is Andrea Dworkin, who is IMO incredibly brain-damaged.
>
I wish it were so, jen.  Leaving aside morgan, mckinnon, and other
well known ones, it's unfortunately true here in the "happy valley" --
pioneer valley of massachusetts (famed "lesbianville of _Nat'l
Enquirer_ and _20/20_ fame) -- that a really huge percent of the
"feminists" you meet are into the whole anti-porn nonsense.  I haven't
found it nearly so much so other places I've lived as I have here; and
that's certainly not because there are any fewer feminists or lesbians
elsewhere.  I think, maybe, massachusetts is just so much more seeped
in puritanical traditions than most other places.  But anyway, the
anti-porn "feminists" are fairly prevalent, at least in some
geographic areas. (I'm not sure about netland, however, no real
statistical sense).  But this is most certainly not meant as a general
condemnation of this area, there are many sane and wonderful feminists
and/or lesbians here -- as anywhere.

-- 
    _/_/_/_/ THIS MESSAGE WAS BROUGHT TO YOU BY: Postmodern Enterprises _/_/_/ 
   _/_/      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~  _/_/ 
  _/_/  The opinions expressed here must be those of my employer...     _/_/ 
 _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/ Surely you don't think that *I* believe them!  _/_/ 
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
From: mec6@quads.uchicago.edu (rini)
Subject: Re: Child Support
Reply-To: mec6@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 01:44:38 GMT

In article <BxzJKu.Du@cs.psu.edu> 
beaver@castor.cs.psu.edu (Don Beaver) writes:
>>

>>both expressed the desire to be parents?
>

>That sounds fine to me.
>
>Now, where does the child reside?
>
>What if the parents live 3000 miles apart?

Um, (looks at map), Topeka?

Okay, no.  :)

Sounds like the kid is going to have to do a lot of flying.

rini

Newsgroups: alt.feminism
From: payner@netcom.com (Rich Payne)
Subject: Re: heterosexuality and feminism
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1992 01:12:18 GMT

In article <1992Nov22.202001.25245@lynx.dac.northeastern.edu> mkagalen@lynx.dac.northeastern.edu (michael kagalenko) writes:
>In article <1992Nov22.154833.11649@netcom.com> payner@netcom.com (Rich Payne) writes:
>>In article <1992Nov22.010044.362@lynx.dac.northeastern.edu> mkagalen@lynx.dac.northeastern.edu (michael kagalenko) writes:   
>>>So no one is write & no one is wrong ? Say, beliefs of Hitler (in "Mein
>>>Kampf", for ex.) and Albert Shweitzer ( "Letters from the Lambarene" for ex.) 
>>>should be treated as equally respectful ? (I'm simplifing, but it was you
>>>who started simplifications)
>>
>>I think it makes sense if you read that -other people's beliefs are
>>personally valid-. 
>
>If I read  that I get 0 bit of information. The above phrase is
>sheer tavtology:

Yes it is tautological, so what? This does not imply zero information.
Mathematics is tautological, this has not been a problem so far.

>  - What are beliefs ? - something personally valid; 

You confuse a statement of scope for a definition.

>  - How'd you call "personally valid" ideas - beliefs, surely !  ;-) 
 
And next you assume a different relationship completely. Can you figure
out the difference?

>> What you believe is real for you. But not necessarily
>>for any other person.
>
>There're some things which are real for everyone whether he/she 
>believes in them or not. 

This is where the "not neccessarily" must be read for meaning. It is not
the same as "not".
 
>>I believe the problem here is literary.
>Yes, really ?    8-) 
>Nothing-nothing else ?

Originally, no.


Rich

payner@netcom.com
From: spp@zabriskie.berkeley.edu (Steve Pope)
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
Subject: Blurb: Catholic to run Planned Parenthood
Date: 23 Nov 1992 16:06:52 GMT
Organization: U.C. Berkeley -- ERL
Distribution: na
NNTP-Posting-Host: zion.berkeley.edu

I saw a two-sentence news blurb that a Catholic has
been chosen as president of Planned Parenthood, "signalling
a change in agenda for the orgnaization".

WTF?  Anybody know more about this?

Steve
From: schultz@unixg.ubc.ca (Stewart Schultz)
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
Subject: Re: Anacin (was: Re: Are Whites Worse Off in the Deep South?)
Date: 20 Nov 1992 00:32:37 GMT
Organization: University of British Columbia, Vancouver, B.C., Canada
NNTP-Posting-Host: unixg.ubc.ca

In article <1992Nov18.142727.29358@panix.com>
gcf@panix.com (Gordon Fitch) writes:

>One of the things I was
>trying to point out was that being in a dominant social
>or political position did not necessarily appear to make
>one happier than those dominated.

But appearances can obviously be deceiving, since your impressions 
regarding greater happiness in black people don't apply to the 
population as a whole, as you clearly implied.

>I alluded briefly to
>the pre-Civil Rights South during a specific period of
>observation, 1960-1964, and I did not say that blacks
>were better off than whites except in a very limited
>sense.

Alluded briefly?  I thought the whole point was that we cannot 
determine whether any particular subpopulation is 'worse off' except 
by examining social and economic structures.  The medical 
epidemiology (both psychological and physical) of race flatly refutes 
this idea.

So you still believe that blacks at this time and place were 
psychologically 'better off' (as you said in your response to Garry 
King)?  Or just the blacks you interacted with?  Do you think that you 
can conclude from your limited exposure that the black population as 
a whole was psychologically better off, at this time and place?  If 
that's not what you were trying to conclude, then I'm afraid your 
comment was simply an irrelevant aside. 

>You have transformed that to "whites are [presumably in
>the present] generally, globally, worse off."  I've quoted
>part of the transformation above, where we fade from the
>Deep South to the world in one easy step.

Sorry for the confusion about 'globally,' it's a reference to the
psychological term 'global positive well-being,' a synonym for
the popular 'happiness,' the term you were using.  If your
comments were not intended as support for a more general
conclusion (in time and space) then they fail to support
your -general- contention regarding the need to examine social
and economic structures.  Or are you saying that we only needed
to examine these structures in the Deep South, in the years you
were there, but in other times and places we don't need to
examine these structures, and we can make valid racial comparisons
based on established measures of well-being?

Let's assess the situation.  I'm saying that we can clearly conclude 
from medical epidemiology that the black population suffers from 
both psychological and physical deficits in well-being relative to the 
white population, in North America, today (and almost certainly at all 
times in the past, though the data are obviously missing).  Hence, we 
can conclude that the black population is socially worse-off without 
any information regarding social or economic structures.

Anything here that you disagree with?

[pointless ad hominems deleted, cross-posted again]

-S. Schultz

Newsgroups: alt.feminism
From: billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson)
Subject: Re: MacKinnon Suffers Snuff Harassment (was: Feminists, Radical and Otherwise)
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 20:54:36 GMT

hans@Software.Mitel.COM (Hans Johnsen) writes:
: 
: >Investigated and charged does not mean that they did anything. Were
: >they convicted? We have had a couple of cases here in the US - in all
: >of them, then social workers taught the kids what to say. This came
: >out when the videotapes of the "interviews" were reviewed.
: 
: Well, I didn't put anything, because I'm not sure of the accuracy of my
: memory, but I'm pretty sure that some (including the local chief of
: police) were convicted. Others, I believe, were acquitted for lack of
: evidence. And social services was not involved in the investigation,
: that I know of. I believe that the investigation started when the
: parents of one (some?) of the kids believed (shockers!) the wild
: stories their kids were telling and brought the story to the RCMP in a
: nearby city (they didn't trust local police).

I am waiting for some information - so far, you have provided nothing
except rumor.

: >: Description of pornography distribution organizations
: 
: >S&M and Beastiality photos would be illegal pornography in Canada, that
: >is true. But then, a photograph of an exposed tit is also illegal
: >pornography in much of Canada.
: 
: If you believe this to be true, then you really don't know much about
: Canadian laws. Hell, we have exposed breasts on National television
: occasionally.

Pornography is what the RCMP/customs agent decides that it is - according
to the police/customs agents to whom I have talked.

: >How about some evidence that these national and international organizations
: >exist?
: 
: Well, A couple here in Ottawa was recently busted for distributing some
: illegal pornography. They found a rather large mailing list from all
: around Canada and the US, as well as some other evidence (I don't know
: what) that there were contacts with other distributors around NA. I
: didn't include this in the original post, because this is all by the
: words and interpretations of the local police.

Lists of sources of supply - or a market for your goods, does not mean that
an organization exists. As you say, conjectures by the local police cannot 
be considered real evidence.

: >Why? Is there any concrete evidence that they do exist? If so, how about
: >providing some.
: 
: You are missing the point. What I am saying is that we shouldn't draw
: conclusions one way or the other until concrete evidence is provided.
: Believing that snuff films don't exist without concrete evidence is
: just as closed minded and non scientific as believing that they do
: exist.

Sigh. This has been gone over - hundreds of times. IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO
PROVE A NEGATIVE - which is what you are asking me to do. 

In some cases, circumstantial evidence has to be accepted. Since no such
films have show up - over a period of decades of search - the evidence is
rather overwhelming that such films do not exist.

Bill
From: mec6@quads.uchicago.edu (rini)
Subject: Re: Elle MacPherson causes rape?
Reply-To: mec6@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 02:24:52 GMT

payner@netcom.com (Rich Payne) writes:
 
>Rini has problems with being told what to post. I bet she has similar 
>problems being told where to direct her posts. 

Once again, you lie.

rini
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
From: mec6@quads.uchicago.edu (rini)
Subject: Re: liberal men are a hot item?
Reply-To: mec6@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 17:45:14 GMT

schultz@unixg.ubc.ca (Stewart Schultz) writes:
 
>I don't think women are 'chosen' on this basis anywhere near often
>enough to justify the blanket statement, or that conflicts about
>domestic chores aren't easily resolved most of the time.

Maybe not, but I would not underestimate the magnitude of conflicts
about domestic chores.  (Hint: they quite often lead to divorce.)

rini
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
From: mec6@quads.uchicago.edu (rini)
Subject: Re: Sex changes, was (Re: Self Appreciation)
Reply-To: mec6@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 21:04:14 GMT

payner@netcom.com (Rich Payne) writes:

>I have problems reconciling the concept of a "women in a man's body" (or vice
>versa) with the concept of sexual identity 100% assigned by social 
>conditioning.

As for myself, I have problems reconciling the concept of a "woman in a
man's body" (or vice versa) with the concept of sexual identity 100%
assigned by biology....

rini
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
From: lip@s1.gov (Loren I. Petrich)
Subject: Re: sex in the good ol' days
Organization: LLNL
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 22:11:37 GMT


	A comment I forgot to add:

	After seeing Dr. Stall's comments on premarital sex, novels,
arts, theater, dancing, and (of all things!) card playing, it should
be clear that there was never the golden age of piety and
near-celibacy that some present-day bluenoses seemingly think had once
been in existence here in the US. The 1894 date is especially
significant, since movies had barely come into existence at the time,
and TV and rock music were decades away. I point out these three
things because they are favorite scapegoats of the professional
bluenoses, and the absence of these three did not stop all sorts of
decadence from going on.

/Loren
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
From: hillyard@lynx.msc.cornell.edu.UUCP (Sean Edward Hillyard,F7 Clark,50649,)
Subject: Re: Sexist and 50/50 (Was: Elle MacPherson causes rape?)
Originator: hillyard@msc2.msc.cornell.edu
Organization: Cornell-Materials-Science-Center
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1992 01:54:16 GMT

From article <1992Nov20.233240.17541@midway.uchicago.edu>, by mec6@quads.uchicago.edu (rini):
[...]
> 
> To the point, are there situations you can think of that exist today
> where men and women participate in something equally and where the very 
> fact of 50/50 participation is evidence of sexism?  (For clarity, let's set
> aside the whole idea of "forced quotas" etc.)  I must admit that I'm
> having a hard time coming up with examples to prove your point.

How about professional tennis, golf and the olympics.  Or even
college athletics where the courts have begun requiring (a Univ. of 
Washington ruling comes to mind) that a certain percentage of participants
have to be women.  Here we have a clear case of a big advantage for a certain
sex and the solution is not to have open tryouts with the best, regardless
of sex, making the team, but instead a fixed percentage required to be women.

SEH
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
From: billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson)
Subject: Re: MacKinnon Suffers Snuff Harassment
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1992 09:02:54 GMT

starbuck@ucrmath.ucr.edu (starbuck) writes:
: 
: Now this may not meet the strict standards of Snuff films as defined
: by some who post to this group, but snuff films none the less.
: The victims are not volenteers and the purpose is murder.
: 
: So let's say they are documentaries of snuff films, a kind of "The
: best of Snuff".  What is "scary" as the some like to say is that
: according to the rental clerk these video's have a high turn over
: rate.

Nope - sorry. The films were made to document the deaths - which would
have occurred anyway. The deaths did not occur for the purpose of making
the films.

Thus, they do not even loosly fit the defintion.

Try reading the FAQ - it covers this subject.

Bill
Xref: sparky alt.feminism:4758 alt.folklore.urban:29173