HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: schuldy@progress.COM (Mark Schuldenfrei)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Underage drinking (was Re: Another Pennsic tip)
Date: 23 Jul 92 15:59:48 GMT
Organization: Progress Software Corp.

Brynjolfr wrote:
  [ The only person liable for criminal charges when an underage person
    drinks is the "adult" who supplied the alcohol, he thinks ]

Think bigger.  If the local police decide that enough nuisances are being
generated by any event, they are within their legitimate authority to
shut that event down, mundane or not.  Peace Officers abating a Public
Nuisance, and all that.

Yes, perhaps, in a legal fight later, we can decide they overstepped
their authority.  And, perhaps, if each and every one of the "adults"
around a campsite is charged when an underage person drinks, we can
all beat the rap.  But I very much want to avoid getting "charged"
with such a crime, and want to avoid the fiscal and emotional costs
of being charged, and beating the rap in a jurisdiction a thousand
miles from home.

In the mean time, Pennsic is ruined, it's hard to run another, and bunches
of us are fighting court cases, either as the prosecution or defense.
It's not a pleasant possibility, and it makes sense to me, that we
talk about how to avoid it.

Brynjolfr also discussed the reality of responsible drinking.  But,
as we all know, reality and law have little to do with one another.
(:-). 

	Tibor
--
Mark Schuldenfrei (schuldy@progress.com)
From: jtn@nutter.cs.vt.edu (Terry Nutter)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Basic Courtesy
Date: 27 Jul 92 05:58:31 GMT
Followup-To: rec.org.sca
Organization: SCA

Unto the good gentles of the Rialto does Hossein Ali Qomi send greetings
and prayers for the blessings of Allah.

Recently Leonard Erickson responded to a posting by my lady wife, Angharad.
The views I express here are my own, not hers (and hence I am the brickbat
target not she).

>Therefore it behooves us to *not* assume that our "principles" justify 
>saying *anything* hurtful. It's one thing to state facts, it's quite another 
>to state opinions.

Three questions:
	1.  Are opinions _really_ not truth-functional?  How is any
knowledge whatsoever possible if that is so?  After all the expression
of belief X is nothing more than my assertion of the truth of X.  No
knowledge whatsoever is possible if my belief is not as capable of being
true or false as any other referential statement is.
	2.  If you _really_ think that no opinion can be true, then why are
you wasting our time with your opinion?
	3.  If we can't "assume that our 'principles' justify saying
*anything* hurtful," then what would you say to Hitler or Stalin? Have a
nice day?  That's a reductio ad absurdum, but like any sound reductio ad
absurdum it reveals the flaw in the underlying reasoning.  If nothing's
worth hurting someone over, then _nothing_ is the principle you're left
with.

>Even if the filk is "offensive" to many here, that does *not* justify a 
>response belittles the poster. A polite comment letting him know that it is 
>not considered appropriate is one thing, "Thanks, this will make a great 
>example of why filks don't belong here" is not.

I fail to understand why people who don't like mundanity in an SCA context
have to pussy-foot oh-so-delicately around the fact that they're offended,
when filkers are accorded every opportunity to circulate any mundane thing
they care to.  Filking of modern songs is in principle a non-medieval
practice.  When somebody posts a completely unmedieval filk to the Rialto,
how can we assume that the poster intends anything but that the filk be
circulated in the SCA?  If that is so, then the poster is _deliberately_
hurting those who prize authenticity.  Yet, in this case you deny that
your justification by response to _deliberate hurtfulness_ applies.  If it
doesn't apply here, just when does it apply?  Your "principle" seems like
so much hot air on examination.

>To summarize, you may speak of principles and the like all that you wish, 
>but the end does not justify the means. 

Like hell it doesn't.  Every means is justified by the end -- even the
Kantian categorical imperative: the end in that case is "not using people
as means."  Simple-minded cant like "the end does not justify the means"
is a screen for failure to analyze the ethical content of a decision.

In Service to the Society,

Hossein/Greg
From: leighann@sybase.com (Leigh Ann Hussey Oster)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Tablet/Card Weaving
Date: 29 Jul 92 21:47:39 GMT
Organization: Ti' Rhos Dhubh

Hi!  I'd love to talk tablets with you, and anybody else you can rouse.

Do you (or does anybody else out there) have a reference for zoomorphics 
in period tablet weaving?  I've made a band with stag heads, that I plan 
to enter in the West's A&S championship, and really need to be able to 
document the possible existence of such a pattern.

Slainte!
	- Siobhan
--
Leigh Ann Hussey Oster
leighann@sybase.com			DoD#5913	AMA#624549
Siobhan ni hEodhusa
"They're mine!  All mine!  And what's mine is mine!" - Daffy Duck
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: ilaine@panix.com (Liz Stokes)
Subject: Re: Another Pennsic tip
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 02:22:57 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Unix & Internet, NYC


	I am going to share some information I read a couple of years back
concerning date rape. This is good advice in general, about the psychology
of date-rapists. College women, pay particular attention.
	If you are going out with a man you have just met or don't know
very well, make it in a neutral, public place *and pay your way*.
	According to this article, you should be very wary of a man who is
insulted if you offer to pay for yourself, or who is very 'take charge' like
choosing the movie or ordering for you without asking what you'd like.
	This is not supposed to be a feminist propaganda thing - I like to
be taken places and cosseted as much as the next woman - it's just something
to look out for that should set that danger bell ringing. Offer to go dutch,
and see how he reacts. You may decide to let him pay for any number of good
reasons, but watch out for a guy who gets very macho over the issue. If you
pay your own way, at least the first few dates, you will also be less likely
to feel guilty about turning him away with a kiss, or like you 'owe' him
something.
	Of course Pennsic brings out the 'shining armor'side of men, and they
are more apt to try to be gallant about things like buying dinner and small
gifts, and walking you back to your tent if the way is dark. There is no
need to refuse, just keep a weather eye out for danger. Gentlemen should
be sensitive to a lady's refusal of such offers, especially if she appears
nervous. 
							in service,
							 -Ilaine

-- 
Liz Stokes         | Ilaine's EZ-Pregnancy Test 
Ilaine de Cameron  | ... "Now take the skein of handspun yarn out of the 
                   | dyebath. If it is green, you are with child, if it
ilaine@panix.com   | is blue, you are not."
From: Suze.Hammond@f56.n105.z1.therose.pdx.com (Suze Hammond)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Why not pentacles:
Date: 24 Jul 92 06:40:00 GMT
Article-I.D.: therose.712043902.F00011

tw>  From: tbarnes@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (thomas wrentmore barnes)
tw>  Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
tw>  <V3LH9Q7@taronga.com>
tw>
tw>  Good Gentles All,
tw>
tw>  Anyone who argues that the pentacle is a good, period charge with
tw>  Christian symbolism is right.
tw>
tw>  If the are enough people who feel strongly enough that pentacles
tw>  should
tw>  be allowed, they should lobby the BoD until the rules are changed.

But, now that they know it is a *Christian* symbol, why would they want to 
exhibit it? It turns out to say the "wrong" thing!

There is a good deal of pagan symbolism of much better "pedigree" available. 
Boars, bulls, bears, stags and horses are all well-known animals sacred to 
the ancient gods and goddesses, as are ash and oak trees (and others less 
well documented). All of these are more suitable to a nature-oriented 
religion than a harsh-looking geometric design anyway. I don't know if the 
CoA allows spirals, but these are very sacred as well. (I believe them to be 
representations of the marks left in a field after harvesting grain with a 
hand sickle, which would explain their connection with fertility.)

And there are other objects than Thor's hammer that denoted certain aspects 
to the ancient mind. Look through any well-illustrated book on Celtic, or 
other ancient cultures. Look at depictions of deities and see what they 
traditionally hold in their hands... I would be very surprised if a goodly 
number of them couldn't be drawn in acceptable heraldic forms. Spindles, a 
staff with a spiral decoration, bowls fo fruit, sickles...all sorts of 
stuff.

Pagans just need to do their homework, like the rest of us.

Moreach NicMaolain
trifid@agora.rain.com
(email replies to this address, please)
From: cozzlab@garnet.berkeley.edu ()
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period vs. Filk (was Basic Courtesy)
Date: 31 Jul 1992 17:01:34 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: garnet.berkeley.edu

In article <712567015.F00001@therose.pdx.com> Suze.Hammond@f56.n105.z1.therose.pdx.com (Suze Hammond) writes:

>Semantics is the devil in this detail....
>
>So let's change the word!
>
>Moreach NicMaolain
>trifid@agora.rain.com 
> 
Right.  My Lord Husband and I have both posted at length on the distinction
we'd like to see made, so I shall just summarize as briefly as I can:

When we make new words to a modern/mundane tune, or new words to a period
or perioid tune on a modern/mundane subject, let us call it FILK.

When we make new words to a period tune on a period or perioid subject,
let us call it CONTRAFAIT.

And when we make new words and a new tune on a period or perioid subject,
then let us simply call them SONGS.



Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin                               Dorothy J. Heydt
Mists/Mists/West                                              Albany CA
Argent, a cross forme'e sable

Disclaimer: This is the Cozzarelli Lab's account, not mine--but I don't
think anybody else ever reads it.
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: lawbkwn@buacca.BITNET (Yaakov HaMizrachi)
Subject: Farewell Hossein
Organization: The Internet
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 13:18:33 GMT


Woe and bitterness, for the First of Av, which
diminishes our joy, is upon us.  And, in accordance
with this sadness, I see the most learned Hossein
has chosen to leave the Rialto.

Having read the longer explanation, I now
have a better understanding of why you
left, though such understanding does not
lessen the sorrow in my soul.  Still, though
it may seem foolish, I should like the chance
to convince you that you are in error.

Can someone email me Hossein's email address?

In Service,
Yaakov
From: grimmund@edsi.plexus.COM (Grimmund Blackwing)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Rape, women, carrying weapons
Date: 27 Jul 92 07:03:21 GMT
Article-I.D.: edsi.1992Jul27.070321.12981
Organization: Enterprise Data Systems Incorporated, Appleton WI


Greetings!

	As  chris@unicorn.resun.com (Chris Von Hendy) points out, the 
Uniform Crime Report only covers REPORTED crimes.  Rape is 
generally accepted as being heavily underreported.  However, the 
point that archer@utkux1.utk.edu (T. Archer) makes is still valid:  
in the reported cases, resistance is better than pacivity.  

Grimmund Blackwing.
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: nancy@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Nancy Lebovitz)
Subject: Re: Courtesy, Filking, Violence and other Unrelated Topics
Organization: UDel, School of Life & Health Sciences
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 10:29:46 GMT

In article <1992Jul28.183308.12347@nstn.ns.ca> GEN0036@Husky1.StMarys.Ca (Brynjolfr) writes:
>
>
>Normally, filking means taking a currently or recently popular song, and
>changing its words around to make it different, usually funny. This is how
>science-fiction fandom has been using the word, and since the SF fans were
>the people who came up with the word, it seems to make sense to use their
>definition, especially since the definition has remained consistent,
>something that rarely happens with SF fandom...

Actually, this is no longer the current definition--for some years now,
people in sf fandom have been writing their own tunes for many of the
filk songs. My best guess at a definition is something like "a filk is
a song about science fiction, fantasy or sf fandom, frequently a parody".
I think that there's some implication that a filk is written by a member
of fandom--a song based on an sf novel by a professional rock musician
doesn't seem to be called a filk.  On the other hand, a song about, say,
a historical event by a filker might well be considered a filk, or at
least not out of place at a filk sing. 

(I realize that this definition is a little vague here and there, but I
think that all definitions of things of cultural importance tend to be
like that.) 

On the other hand, when "filk" is a verb, it still means "parody". Those
entirely original filksongs I mentioned in the first paragraph frequently
get filked to considerable humorous effect. 

                                  Nancy Lebovitz
                                  calligraphic button catalogue available
                                          by email (170K)
                                  nancy@genie.slhs.udel.edu

Before I go to bed, I want some filk and cookies.
>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: graydon@micor.ocunix.on.ca (Graydon)
Subject: Re: Rapier Combat
Organization: M.B. Cormier INC.
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 92 19:12:51 EDT

ewright@convex.com (Edward V. Wright) writes:

> Lothar (thomas wrentmore barnes) writes:
> 
> >Does anyone know how these (14th Century) swords were used? (ie 
> >were they primarily used to thrust, or were they swung? did they 
> >use draw cuts?) 
> 
> Like all swords prior to the development of the rapier, they 
> were primarily used for cuts rather than thrusts.
> -- Nicholas van Leyden
> 

I'll be there are a *lot* of Roman ghosts taking a new look at
their gladii, Nicholas...

Graydon

        Graydon the Curious         /graydon@micor.ocunix.on.ca
  Skraeling Althing, EAldormere, MK / "Nihil est quin obsisti possit"
From: carl@silver.lcs.mit.edu (Carl J.M. Alexander)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Basic Courtesy
Date: 31 Jul 92 18:40:44 GMT
Organization: Organization???

Moreach, directing her remarks to Stephen:
 
>Paraphrasing an arguement is not the same as putting words in someone's 
>mouth. And I think almost everyone here knows that except, evidently, you.
 
Too often, paraphrases have precicely the effect of putting words 
into the original poster's mouth.  I doubt that many people ever 
consciously intend this; rather it reflects insufficient attention 
to detail and the tendency, endemic to this medium, to shoot from 
the hip and to respond to the tiniest percieved slight with an 
emotionalism we would never use in either face-to-face conversation 
or old-fashoned, slow and considered written correspondence.
  
>If you think this is a "flamewar" you have lead a very sheltered life....
 
The idea here seems to be that the fact that flaming on the Rialto is 
less disgusting than that on some other newsgroups somehow makes 
flaming on the Rialto okay.  By the same reasoning, one could argue 
that being fondled by a dirty old man in a dark theater is less 
disgusting than being anally raped, therefore the dirty old man's 
fondling is okay.  I don't buy it:  I think it dubious praise indeed 
to be able to say of the Rialto that the flaming here is nowhere near 
as bad as that in soc.history.

>I will add that your basic non-understanding of courtesy....
 
I am curious:  am I the only person who was taught by his mother that 
the worst possible breach of manners would be to publicly 'correct' 
someone else's manners?
 
I am beginning to feel like a broken record, calling for calm 
and an end to the personal attacks here.  It is entirely possible, 
as I hope the above demonstrates, to disagree with someone -- and 
even to disagree spiritedly -- without engaging in personal 
attacks.
 
Once again, can we not, please, drop this thread, shake hands all 
around, and try to learn to direct our remarks at objects and 
ideas, rather than at people?
 
(A wise man once said, "Blessed are the peacemakers."  I wonder.)
 
Alexander of Kiev                       Carolingia, East

Carl Alexander                          Harvard Square, Cambridge, Mass.
carl@silver.lcs.mit.edu 
 
 
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: caina@merrimack.edu
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca,soc.history,alt.war.civil.usa
Subject: Brigade of the American Revolution/Continental Line
Date: 29 Jul 92 12:57:28 GMT
Organization: Merrimack College, No. Andover, MA, USA


   Does anybody know how I can get in touch with either the Brigade of the
American Revolution and/or the Continental Line.  Myself and some of my 
associates are thinking about starting up a Revolutionary War reenactment
group so any info anyone has will be helpful.  Thanks in advance!

Alex
From: derlith@wuntvor.norman.ok.us (August Derlith)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Ummm....  Actually.... :)
Date: 22 Jul 92 14:29:23 GMT
Organization: The Eternal Apprentice BBS, Norman, OK


        The question is a take-off on a line from Beauty and The Beast,
and was meant to be a joke.  However, I appreciated the answers.  I had 
been curious when and where the art of "antlery"(?) started.  Now, I 
know.  Thanks.

                                                                Derlith
        (I now have the soundtrack, and I am now addicted.)

=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=
/  August Derlith  /     "No...  one's....  Slick like Gaston!        /
\  Vampire at Large\      No one's quick like Gaston!                 \
/  Lover of Night  /      No one's neck's as incredibly thick as 
\  Wronger of Rights\               Gaston's!!!!!!!!!                 /
=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=
From: sharons@juliet.ll.mit.EDU (Sharon Stanfill)
Subject: nicknames
Organization: The Internet
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 15:18:34 GMT



Arval writes:
>In modern English we don't use prefix nicknames like "Horse Peter".  We do
>use things like "Peter the Horse", and our literature uses things like
>"Peter of the Horse".  We also might use something like "Horse Jones" for
>Peter Jones". 

Actually, I must beg to differ with the wise Arval. In one group of my
friends (not the SCA circle), we recently had a surfeit of Jeffs. It was
quite possible for a majority of the people at a gathering (such as
dinner) to be Jeffs. Therefore, we turned to nicknames. The names used
included: Connecticut Jeff, Gaming Jeff, Ur-Jeff, Local Jeff, Other Jeff,
and Lang Jeff. I suspect that if one of the Jeffs had some association
with horses, he could have become Horse Jeff (or even Horsie Jeff).
Admittedly, this is a tiny sample, however, I thought it was of possible
interest.

Nesta ferch Meriadoc Hartley
(who signs her full name, even tho' she prefers to be called Meriadoc
 so as not be be confused with any other Meriadoc person)

sharons@juliet.ll.mit.edu
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: bq434@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Michael A. Chance)
Subject: Re: Icelandic Religions
Reply-To: bq434@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Michael A. Chance)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 92 15:48:38 GMT


In a previous article, Brynjolfr wrote:

>however it
>seems strange that people would go to Iceland when Sweden was so close by
>(especially to Norway), it being a bastion of paganism until quite late...

I suspect that there were (and still are) enough cultural differences
between Sweden and Norway that folks preferred a Norwegian culture in
Iceland rather than a Swedish one.

Reminds me of an incident when I was in Drachenwald.  I was one of the
fortunate (unfortunate? 8-) folk from Germany to be able to attend
Drachenwald's first investiture to be held in Nordmark (a 12th Night,
complete with -25 C temperatures).  As we were driving from the train
station in Stockholm to the suburban home where we were to stay Friday
night, we passed a sign which read "Oslo 500Km".  I remarked to our
hosts that I didn't realize that Oslo was that close, and you could
probably make it in 5 or 6 hours.  Their response was, "Yes, but why
would you want to?"

Mikjal Annarbjorn
(a Norwegian who likes the Nordmarkers anyway)
From: kuijt@umiacs.umd.edu (David Kuijt)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Basic Courtesy
Date: 28 Jul 92 16:22:46 GMT
Organization: UMIACS, University of Maryland, College Park, MD 20742

I am Earl Dafydd ap Gwystl, Knight, Laurel, and supplicant at the
throne of Courtesy.

I have frequently posted to the rialto.  I am the Dafydd who knows
Lady Angharad well, and counts her a friend.  I am a Dafydd who knows
Hossein Ali Qomi also, though less well, and would be pleased to count
him a friend as well.

I am not the Dafydd (WHITE@drexel.etc) who posted on the rialto recently
under the subject __Re: Basic Courtesy__.

I try to append my patronym (ap Gwystl) to all my postings to avoid this
type of confusion, and I ask this other Dafydd to do likewise, lest we
be mistaken for each other, as I have been mistaken for him in this
case.

In this case the confusion was made greater by the fact that I had sent
email on this matter to Angharad and Hossein just hours before the
posting from Dafydd/WHITE@drexel appeared on the rialto at thier
system.

Hossein, I agree with everything you say about how backstabbing it
would be to send email as I did and then post to the rialto as you
think (thought) I did.  I did not post that note to the rialto.

I ask everyone on the rialto to take this as an object lesson--
this could happen to you.  Please make sure that the person you
are responding to is the person who wrote the note.  I would also
like to speak up as the voice of moderation on this subject: it
has gotten out of control.  How can discourtesy serve the cause
of courtesy?  And many of the recent postings with this subject
line go beyond the bounds of calm debate.



	Dafydd ap Gwystl			David Kuijt
	Barony of Storvik			kuijt@umiacs.umd.edu
	Kingdom of Atlantia			(MD,DC,VA,NC,SC)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: jaymin@maths.tcd.ie (Jo Jaquinta)
Subject: Where zip codification doesn't work
Organization: Dept. of Maths, Trinity College, Dublin, Ireland.
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 08:09:23 GMT

	You try to explain to your Kingdom Seneschal that you just
don't have American ZIP codes in your territory! We break down
as follows:

	Ireland is subdivided by counties. Dublin is really progressive. We 
have postal codes. A whole 24 of them!
	Northern Ireland and the Isle of Man use the English system
where each street has a different postal code.
	Rockall has no postal system.
	
	When we start subdividing I guess we'll have to go back to landmarks
such as streams and rivers :-).

			Seamus

    %	   Seamus Donn		Eva de Barri            Sorcha Ui' Flahairteaigh
   %|%	   Jo Jaquinta		Cathy Barry             Lesley Grant
/\\ | //\  jaymin@maths.tcd.ie	cbarry@maths.tcd.ie	lgrant@maths.tcd.ie
  =====			44 Bancroft Avenue, Tallaght, Dublin 24, Ireland.
   /|\			for the Shire of Lough Devanree (Lough Damh an Ri'gh)