From: mcgrath@cs.uiuc.edu (Robert McGrath)
Subject: Re: Near Death Experiences
Reply-To: mcgrath@cs.uiuc.edu
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept of Computer Science
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 22:27:49 GMT

In article <1992Oct13.135608.19568@news.ysu.edu>, ae553@yfn.ysu.edu (David Jameson) writes in part:
|> People who report having NDEs usually have roughly the same experience.
|> Firstly there is an experience of travelling down a long dark tunnel with
|> a very bright light at the end.  When they reach the "light" there are
|> usually people there, such as religious leaders, angels or relatives who
|> have died.  There is also a feeling that if the person stays in this
|> place they will not be able to return to their bodies -- they would
|> be _really_ dead.
Actually, the NDE has several stages, including 1) a feeling of
well being and happiness, 2) an out-of-body experience, and
3) the tunnel experience, usually in that order.  The "light" 
and "people" seen vary in different cultures.

|>   There were various people in the programme who apparently "saw" things
|> during their NDE which they could not possibly have known about.  As
|> an example of this, they interviewed a woman who was present in a
|> hospital when a patient was being revived from a heart attack.  For a
|> few minutes the patient had no heart beat and no respiration.  After being
|> revived, the patient told the woman that she had been outside her body
|> and saw what was happening.
In these cases, it is possible that the ND person could have picked up
information from their senses, even though they were in a coma.  That
is, she might have heard the events, and then could visualize them.
This is simply to say that care must be taken in assessing what the
person "could not possibly have known."

|>   The woman was a bit sceptical and just thought that the patient had been
|> hallucinating.  The patient then told her that, while out of her body, she
|> had been up to the third floor of the building and had seen an old
|> tennis shoe there, and asked the woman to go and get it.  Knowing that she
|> wouldn't find anything, the woman went to look for the shoe.  After
|> looking for a while she noticed a blue tennis shoe sitting outside on a
|> windowsill.  She took it down to the patient, holding it behind her back,
|> and asked the patient what color it was.  The patient said blue.
This story is typical of many such wonders--unverifiable.

|> It is impossible to say this experience was a simple hallucination or dream,
|> the only other "scientific" explanation being that both people are lying.
Which experience?  The blue shoe? 
There are many posisbilities: the person telling it might believe it, but
be mistaken.  The person telling it might have heard it from someone who
believed it, but was mistaken.  The story may have been distorted or
improved in the telling.

Perhaps the patient put the shoe on the ledge herself to back up what
she "knew" she saw.  Perhaps somebody else put the shoe there to 
"reconstruct" what they "knew" has happened.

Note also that seh said there was an old tennis shoe on the third floor.
If the building is a hospital, there are tennis shoes on EVERY floor
on the staff, and in thelocker rooms.   And, notice that the shoe
was not on the third foor but OUTSIDE the third floor.  So a guess that
could hardly fail to be wrong was, in fact, WRONG.  Amazing.

All I'm driving at is that there are PLENTY of hypotheses besides
the ones you consider.

|>   Some people might say "these people weren't _really_ out of their
|> bodies -- they were just using some kind of telepathy/clairvoyance/etc. to
|> get information that wouldn't be possible using the normal five senses".
|> Would this be possible whenever a person's heart has stopped beating
|> (i.e. no oxygen being transported to the brain)?  Is it possible for
|> neurons to keep firing even after being deprived of oxygen for a few
|> minutes?  This would apply for all the NDEs i.e. if the "light at the
|> end of the tunnel" is purely a result of brain activity then obviously
|> a lot of neurons will need to be firing -- would this be possible when
|> the oxygen supply to the brain has been shut off?
Yes, definitely.  In fact, this is a very likely physiological model of
the NDE.  And from what is know of comas, people can receive information
from their ordinary senses, even though they are apparently unconscious
for a long time.  So, you don't have to invoke ESP to account for people
hearing conversations when they are unconscious, this is know to
happen through the ears.  (This is why well trained nurses are very
polite, kind, and positive to folks in comas--they know that if and
when the patient wakes up they might well remember.)

|>   It would be interesting to hear whether anyone reading this newsgroup has
|> had a NDE.  The experience is certainly very similar to an OOBE, although
|> the technique for achieving one is slightly different :)
Note, though, that OBEs and NDEs are not identical--the NDE has several
stages, one of which is similar to an OBE.  The OBE does not usually
have the tunnel with the light.   They might well be related, but,
as you note, they clearly have different triggers.

-- 
  Robert E. McGrath
  Urbana Illinois
  mcgrath@cs.uiuc.edu
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body