Newsgroups: alt.politics.libertarian,alt.society.anarchy
Subject: Re: alt.politics.libertarian,alt.society.anarchyREFRESH
From: jsteiner@anwsun.phya.utoledo.edu (jason 'Think!' steiner)
Date: 6 Nov 92 03:55:24 EST
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denning@vax.oxford.ac.uk (Iain Morrison) writes:
> jsteiner@anwsun.phya.utoledo.edu (jason 'Think!' steiner) writes:
> > denning@vax.oxford.ac.uk (Iain Morrison) writes:
> >> dave@bradley.bradley.edu (David Vessell) writes:
> >> 
> >> Why should the poor rely on charity? A touch demeaning dont you 
> >> think. How can one justify vast differences in income?
> > 
> > we might as well ask how can we we can expect there -not- to be 
> > vast differences in income. ever heard the old adage that life 
> > isn't fair? at -no- time in history have there not been classes 
> > and differences in income. attempts at solving this "problem" have
> > failed miserably or accentuated the differences.
> 
> Well I suppose we might as well give up then, and continue with the 
> "best-of-all-possible-worlds" that we live in today. Gross 
> inequality is obviously a "fact of life". My appologies for even 
> suggesting that change is possible.

you use inequality as though it were a dirty word, conveniently 
forgetting that no two people are identical. individuals have 
different priorities, and different potentials. there is no
way to change that.

> >> > The person who deserves the bread is the person who worked for 
> >> > it.  Period.
> >> 
> >> Nope. The person who deserves the bread is the person who needs 
> >> it. Period.
> > 
> > again, human society has never operated this way. all attempts at
> > forcing it too have only succeeded in taking the bread away from
> > everyone.
>                  
> You clearly arent living in the same world as myself. Most people
> work to survive - fair returns have nothing to do with it. The 
> bosses/market decides what is "fair".

what's so bad about that? i'd rather have what is "fair" decided by
my peers (the "market") and be able to make the same sort of decision
myself than be forced into -your- definition of what is "fair".

> >> but there's the rub. Present western society isnt equitable. The 
> >> skills society/marketplace deems as useful vary from time to 
> >> time - at present intellectual attributes are valued more highly 
> >> than physical skills, but this is a fairly recent phenomenon. 
> >> People should be rewarded for achieving their potential, 
> >> whatever that may be.
> > 
> > and who will reward them? the state?
> 
> The community in which they live.

for what reason? because you say so? what's the community's motivation?
if my potential is making the best damn mud-pies in the whole world
should i be payed $40,000 a year for doing so?

> Pardon me for aspiring to a more egalitarian future.

in order to give to a few you must take from many. that doesn't seem
very egalitarian to me. of course, you probably have some grand
scheme in which everyone will get everything and nobody will be
imposed upon... pull t'other one. 's got bells on it.

> > society is nothing more than the interaction of individuals. 
> > coercing individuals to interact according to some social ideal 
> > about non-existant "baser instincts" is doomed to failure.
> 
> Who mentioned coercion? 

what? people are going to pay me to make mud-pies out of the goodness 
of their hearts? again, i doubt it. and if they don't the only way 
you're going to get them to "reward me for achieving my potential" is 
by force.

people do not "deserve" equal rewards simply for existing. since we
are, by our very nature, different the only way to equalize everyone
is to take from those who have more to give to those who have less.
when there is no longer anyone to take from -everyone- ends up at
the bottom of the potential curve.

jason "the anti Gladys Moon-Glampers" steiner

--
   "I think all right thinking people in this country are sick and tired
    of being told that ordinary decent people are fed up in this country
    with being sick and tired. I'm certainly not, and I'm sick and tired
    of being told that I am!" - Monty Python
`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,` jsteiner@anwsun.phya.utoledo.edu ,`,`,`
Xref: sparky alt.politics.libertarian:1716 alt.society.anarchy:680