HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jo.lavoy%theweb@meaddata.com (Jo Lavoy) 
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: QUOTING
Date: 14 Dec 92 06:45:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: The Web BBS 1-513-436-9011 6 Lines 1200 News groups 50,000 files!
Reply-To: jo.lavoy%theweb@meaddata.com (Jo Lavoy) 

Does anyone here besides me just HATE to read a message where the quoted
text is longer than the reply?  Sometimes the quotes scroll off of my
screen twice before I find the 3-line reply.  Sometimes there are so
many quotes within quotes I can no longer figure out which IS the reply.

People! We are fairly intelligent, I hope.  Surely we can edit our
quoting to something reasonable?  It's difficult enough to read all
that's new here without having to REREAD the same message every time
someone replies to it!
From: lchurch2@bluemoon.use.com (Leonard Church)
Subject: Re: thrust versus slash -- a SEAL's response
Organization: Blue Moon BBS ((614) 868-998[024])
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 92 15:46:45 EST

dsmythe@netcom.com (Dave Smythe) writes:

> I responded to this on the mailing list, and accidentally sent it to
> the wrong place, so I thought I'd just post it here for fun...
> 
> > Dave Sheehy <dbs@hprnd.rose.hp.com> writes:
> > >someone else writes:
> > >> Expert MA knife fighters will _typically_ slash, not thrust.  Thrusting
> > >>will often over commit the attacker.  
> > >Tell that to a fencer. Also, much military knife technique was (or may eve
> > >still be) based on fencing. The people who designed those curicula were 
> > >arguably experts.
> 
> The attributions are no doubt messed-up, sorry.
> 
> I asked my SEAL friend about the thrust vs. slash problem, and also
> about getting the knife stuck in the body after a thrust.  His response
> was something like: "Most knife attacks are not fatal quickly enough,
> so in order to make sure that you kill very quickly it has to be a
> thrust to a very vital organ, essentially the heart.  We had a special
> knife made for us that looked like a narrow pyramid with a handle.  It
> had 3 edges and they were all razor-sharp.  The blade was solid, and had
> recessions in each side to break the suction.  To make sure it wouldn't
> get stuck, I always twisted it on the way in, and also on the way out.
> The way that the blade was designed, it typically would pull out a big
> plug of flesh when you pulled it out.  It was made for us by Buck, and
> I used it *a lot*.  Great knife."
> 
> D
> 
> -- 
> ========================================================================
> Dave Smythe   N6XLP    dsmythe@netcom.com (also dsmythe@cs.stanford.edu)

That SPECIAL knife was developed for the SAS back in WWII by Fairbanks... 
it is like a triangle file and was refered to as a "noseplug" some 
variations on this knife included: the handle being that of a WWI 
trenchknife [brass nuckles], having two Sai like tines on the handle, and 
having a retractable wire saw in the handle as a garotte.
 

-------------------------------------------------------------
Growing trees in a concrete Jungle | lchurch2@bluemoon.rn.com
-------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: tmaas@rchland.vnet.ibm.com (Anthony Maas)
Subject: Re: group for judo?
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 19:16:54 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM Rochester

|> 	Your loss, I think.  I get an awful lot out of reading discussions
|> about other arts, and adding my own perspective.  And vice-versa.
|> 

I also think it's his loss.  As to how this relates to MA, I know several instructors who won't teach their kids anything other than straight TKD, or straight Karate, but I for one am glad that I've had the chance to be exposed to a solid base of TKD, with some aikido, jujitsu, escrima, and boxing thrown in.  He (my instructor) wants to give us a wide base with which to learn from and choose the techniques that we find the most effective.  

I know that there are those out there that feel if you can't master one art, why try to master four.  Personally I feel greatly enriched having had a broad base  - as long as you feel confidant with what you know, what does it matter?  

Bring on any flames... my opinions are my own, definitely...

Tony Maas
IBM Rochester, MN
From: wrankin@ee.egr.duke.edu (William T. Rankin)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: belt colors in this newsgroup
Date: 12 Dec 92 15:55:21 GMT
Article-I.D.: ee.1992Dec12.105521
Organization: Duke University EE Dept.; Durham, NC
Originator: wrankin@ee.egr.duke.edu




In article <MARY.92Dec4171234@martinique.Cayman.COM>, mary@Cayman.COM (Mary Malmros) writes:

> In article <1992Dec2.235540.621@craycos.com> sog@craycos.com (Steve Gombosi) writes:
>    In article <1992Dec2.121953.2022@ccsvax.sfasu.edu> z_coolidgeas@ccsvax.sfasu.edu writes:
>    >I bet this newsgroup has had this question come up before, but it's not really
>    >a FAQ question:
>    >How many of this group are Higher belts, lower belts, and innocent bystanders?

>    I wear mine around the top of my hips.

>    Steve


> Me, too, and it's pretty high because my legs are long.  In fact I've got
> a higher belt than my instructor...

>  Mary Malmros
>  mary@cayman.com

Ha!  Shows what you two know.  I wear mine *lower* on the hips.   This is traditional.
Back in food-al Japan (about 300 bc. or so...) new students wore their belts as headbands!
The longer they practiced, the looser the belt would become, and it would slide lower and
lower down the body (people were shaped diffently back then, more like a pair).

You could tell a grand-ultimate-master by the fact that he stumbled around all day
with a belt tied around his ankles.

Choke defenses were taught at the level when the belt was tied around the neck.

BTW, Mary, *how* long *are* your legs?... :-)
(duck!  no, run!, no, duck then run! no... (crunch!<thud>)

-bill
From: mikel@Apple.COM (Mikel Evins)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: TRUE MARTIAL ARTIST (was: Van Damme and Seagal)
Date: 13 Dec 92 00:43:55 GMT
Organization: Apple Computer Inc, Cupertino, CA

In article <58760006@acf3.NYU.EDU> wut@acf3.NYU.EDU (Tom Wu) writes:
>	Hay, funny that you mentioned it. It is absolutely
>true that all martial artists will age to look like buddhas.
>If you look at pictures of famous martial artists, let it be
>internal or external, when they get to 50, they all carry around
>that full belly. I think that has something to do with their
>training, which often concentrate on the waist and stomach.
>Or could it be the effect of concentrating chi in "Dan Tian,"
>which is located in lower abdoman.

Heh, maybe not *absolutely* true. You ought to see Sin The', who
is over fifty now. He looks much more like Arnold Schwarzenegger
than Buddha.

Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: pklauren@nmsu.edu (Patrick M Klaurens)
Subject: Re: Sternum strike vs. Solar plexus
Organization: NMSU Computer Science
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 19:23:56 GMT

That accounts for a slight change in how we teach lower kyus basic
defensive strikes.  I am seeing a slight favoring of kidney/floating
rib strikes rather than diagphram strikes.  This can also be due to
the fact that we are expected to absorb diagphram strikes by ikyu.
From: mnoell@reed.edu (@#$!!*#@!)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: ki and science
Date: 14 Dec 92 23:54:15 GMT
Article-I.D.: reed.1992Dec14.235415.21248
Organization: Reed College, Portland, OR




	Why do you all want to measure Ki?  Do you need to have it proven to
you?  Proven to your unbeliever friends?  I don't get it.  If you have it and
it works for you great!  If you don't have it, ask yourself why you want it.
Me, I don't know anything about it. . .   Just my two cents.

Max
From: zx2j@vax5.cit.cornell.edu
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: RE:  Ki and science
Date: 14 Dec 92 17:18:32 EST
Distribution: rec
Organization: Cornell University

In article <Bz86Ku.3tn@wilber.rich.nt.com>,
bwebb@nrchh129.RICH.nt.com (Brad Webb) writes: 
> Re: Todd Stark & Pete Capell comments...
> 
> I agree in many ways with Mr. Capell's comments.
> 
> My feelings are that we (as a scientific community)
> will have to wait a little longer until the
> resident scientists can find a way to measure the
> energy form that we call Ki or Chi.

Are you thinking in terms of some kind of device to measure chi?
A mechanical device is not necessary, instead one can observe the
effect that Ki has on the world, and in particular, on people. In
that way we could begin to quantify, and define Ki.  Build up a
body of knowledge, and then make your case.

Also note that Scientists and Physicists have appropriated certain terms
from our everyday English, and have imbued them with rather precise
definitions for technical use. For a scientist, calling ki a form of
energy presupposes what it is (to a physicist at least.)


> 
> Just as Mr. Capell pointed out about people not 
> beliving ultraviolet frequencies existing, just 
> because the scientists of the past could not 
> quantify/measure/prove such an existance.

Scientists usually have to be forced to come to grips with new 
phenomena or ideas.  This is not because Scientists are any more
pigheaded than any other group of people, but because of the torturous
way at which they've arrived at the knowledge they have.  They have a natural,
penetrating skepticism which serves us all ( want to buy a cold fusion reactor,
cheap! ) If we want to
introduce a new phenomena into their field of study, we are going to have
to prove to them that the phenomena exists in a rigorous sense.  

Cheers,
Mike Rilee


Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: tongl@ecf.toronto.edu (TONG LARRY HIGH YOUNG)
Subject: Re: Aikido Question (not a poll)
Summary: OUCH! Who's your teacher?  
Organization: University of Toronto, Engineering Computing Facility
Distribution: na
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 20:10:38 GMT

In article <1992Dec10.111718.1@lucy.claremont.edu> kenfield@lucy.claremont.edu writes:
>In article <1g38kuINNfh0@master.cs.rose-hulman.edu>, acharya@HYDRA.ROSE-HULMAN.EDU writes:
>> i have a new student in my aikido class. the problem with him is
>> (a) he is very strong, and
>> (b) he likes to use his strength
>> this makes doing techniques against him very difficult and at times 
>> (too often actually), nearly impossible.
>> 
>> -mukund
>
>Ate!  the most common application of strength in resisting a technique (in my
>opinion and experience) is to brace against technique, usually just standing
>there.  If he's open, smack 'im.
>
>Kent Enfield
>Musubi Dojo
>Claremont, CA

Sometimes I realize just how much ego is on the line when we work with a new
student. If you're even a moderately intermediate level student, I suppose thereis the attitude that any new student (NS) should be easily handled given your 
"superior" abilities, but this doesn't always prove true, especially if the 
NS is highly athletic and uncooperative as well. It is then tempting to change
the rules and overcome the NS using more advanced techniques (rather than the 
one being practiced) OR some MAs have even suggested using a strike! 

Now, unless you're the teacher, you should have nothing to prove. A good teacherwill recognize a egotistical NS, and seek to reduce the conflict, sometimes even by "shocking" the bad attitude out of the student by a demonstration of skill.

In mukund's case, it is not his responsibility. Mary said it well, when she 
asked if mukund has tried to talk with his NS partner. If the NS persists to be
troublesome after a clear and thorough talk, then bear with it, and the teacher
will eventually take notice. Only if the problem is extreme should the teacher
be notified.

But "smacking" or striking the NS to accomplish a technique is NOT OKAY, as
the purpose of the lesson was, say, a particular grapple, and so there is no
justification for a hit. Even when practing strikes, contact should be limited to no contact or light contact at most. The NS is NOT an enemy, and ego should not be involved when practicing.

Lastly, ability and knowledge have a correlation but aren't strictly synonymous.
So, a more knowledgeable student doesn't always mean a tougher or "better"
student (in a strictly martial sense). A NS with strength, speed and grace can
provide a challenge to higher students, but without an open attitude, she or he
will only hurt themselves by learning poorly, in the long term. Perhasp, you
can point this out to your NS partner, makund.


Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: campbell@psych.psy.uq.oz.au (Campbell Dickson)
Subject: Re: Discussing technique
Organization: Psychology Department, University of Queensland
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 02:07:21 GMT

In article <1gs8p3INN8g1@bHARs12c.bnr.co.uk>, dsr@bnr.co.uk (D.S.Riches) writes:
|> In article <1992Dec18.024724.19987@psych.psy.uq.oz.au> campbell@psych.psy.uq.oz.au (Campbell Dickson) writes:
|> >> From: taddiken@ms.uky.edu (scott taddiken)
|> >> Summary: One handed kouchi gari.
|> >	.
|> >A typical example of why you don't see detailed technical discussion.
|> >
|> [stuff deleted]
|>  
|> >for all the apparent precision, ...
|> >you still have to have _experience_ of what is being alluded to
|> >to appreciate the discussion.
|> 
|> Now, with regards to the technique mentioned above, I understood what
|> was said and could apply it to the way that I perform the technique and
|> I find that highly useful.  If I was reading about a technique in
|> tae-kwondo I wouldn't expect to understand everything said but it might
|> pique my interest enough to find out some more.
|> 
|> The point is, that technical terms are developed to give precise
|> meanings and without them we wouldn't be able to learn precise actions.

No, without them you would find it harder to talk about actions. 

I don't wish to say that it's completely pointless to attempt to describe techniques. In fact I just read an interesting post about something translated as a 'floating drop' which seems to indicate that Judo properly applied uses what I have learned to call Split Timing.

However I do think that attempting to describe attack and counter in terms of
what the hands and feet etc. are doing individually is almost impossible to follow, even if you do try and adopt a samehand/crosshand  inside/outside etc
framework. 

Of course, I still read these things, but the framework I learn in is couched in terms of feeling your opponents circle and the idea that you can see the whole of
Tai Ch'i as variations of grasp the bird's tail, or with Hsing I five elements, the _same_ basic element works against an attack at any height and so on.
So I do have a prejudice against atomistic approaches.

In summary: Discussing technique sensibly is hard, because to make a contribution, you have to get at the essence of a technique and not just concentrate on which way the hands are waving. Even if you practice something with an elaborate terminology it's so easy to say the right words and miss the point completely.
From: wrat@unisql.UUCP (wharfie)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: stranglehold
Date: 14 Dec 92 14:58:28 GMT
Organization: UniSQL, Inc., Austin, Texas, USA

In article <1992Dec13.214545.6209@desire.wright.edu> jchristian@desire.wright.edu writes:
>Seems to me it doesn't matter much if someone is strangling me the "right" 
>way vs. the "wrong" way, if the end result is me being incapacitated.  

	The wrong way is merely unpleasant and not incapacitating at all.
The right way incapacitates so quickly that the only valid defense is to
stop the technique from being applied correctly.

>I would argue difference of style.

	Get someone who knows how to apply a choke to demonstrate.

									wr
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: goluska@delta.egr.msu.edu (Che Goluska)
Subject: Re: Bullet catching?
Organization: College of Engineering, Michigan State University
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 92 19:55:21 GMT

My sensei has told me about a gentleman who used to put on demonstrations at major tournaments, etc who caught bullets in his teeth frequently.  Apparently through the course of his career he was shot in the throat and face more than once.  I doubt his teeth were all original either.

Unfortunately he is dead now.  Supposedly some sort of heart attack.
-- 
===============================================================================
       * * *    Che Goluska                                         * * *   
       * * *    goluska@frith.egr.msu.edu                           * * *   
       * * *                                                        * * *   
      *  *  *   "Don't be so proud.  You're not an intelligence    *  *  *
     *   *   *   until you pass the turing test."                 *   *   *
   *     *     *       -Solomon Short                           *     *     *
===============================================================================
From: mikel@Apple.COM (Mikel Evins)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Finishing techniques
Date: 16 Dec 92 17:35:57 GMT
Organization: Apple Computer Inc, Cupertino, CA

In article <1992Dec15.164428.1@v2.cgu.mcc.ac.uk> gatenby@v2.cgu.mcc.ac.uk writes:
>Todd Ellner writes:
>> What techniques would you use if you _really_ had to stop someone?
>> If the proverbial 7'-300lb-PCP using-steroid monkey-whose spent half
>> his life in Folsom prison-and wants to rip your lungs out was in the
>> alley with you and you could set up one or two shots what would they
>> be? No guns or knives allowed.
>
>His eyes (my fingers)
>His knees (my feet)
>His groin (my fist)
>His groin (my feet)

My experience with PCP suggests that pain-oriented techniques will not
work. Thus, the eyes will work only if you render them non-functional
(harder than it sounds, based upon my recent experience with corneal
injuries). The knees will work if you break them so he can't stand
up to come after you. The groin won't work.
From: shulick@navajo.ucs.indiana.edu (Sam Hulick)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Agreed: rec.martial-arts hierarchy
Date: 20 Dec 92 04:18:17 GMT
Reply-To: shulick@navajo.ucs.indiana.edu
Organization: Vallen Software
Originator: shulick@navajo


I think we should really break up this group.  martial arts as a term is
so general.  hapkido, judo, 200 types of karate, gun-fu, PCP-fu.. :)

This is just a little suggestion, no need to flame. :)

rec.martial-arts.hapkido  -  Hapkido discussions
                 judo     -  Judo, obviously..
                 karate   -  all styles of karate..
                 hype     -  martial-art bullshit like super ninjas and 
                             catching bullets. :)
                 western  -  Western martial arts.. knives, guns,
                             general non-Asian combat
                 misc     -   Anything else.

I say we do it! :)  Let's get this baby sorted out so it's more
efficiently read..

-- 
    // Amiga 3000   ___ \ Sam Hulick: shulick@indiana.edu (NeXTmail OK!)
   // 68030 25 MHz /__/\ \ My opinions wear combat boots.  Or whatever.
\\// OS 2.04       \__\/ / "Walk!  Not bloody likely.  I am going in a
 \/                     / taxi."  --George Bernard Shaw
From: jlockha@eis.calstate.edu (Jame A Lockhart)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: need JKA contact
Date: 16 Dec 92 06:49:08 GMT
Organization: Calif State Univ/Electronic Information Services

Off the Subject, but is the JKA affiliated with any other style besides
Shotokan?  Specifically Shorin Ryu or Shito Ryu.
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: tac@cs.brown.edu (Ted A. Camus)
Subject: Re: Finishing techniques
Organization: Brown University Department of Computer Science
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 20:12:40 GMT


matthew@cs.mun.ca (Matthew J. Newhook) writes:

>No, for people this strung out [nikyo] would not work. The person would
>just stand right up, with no regard to his broken wrist.  A similar
>problem results with Sankyo, and Kotegeishi.  The person would simply
>let their joint get broken.  Techniques that rely on pain, such as the
>above, imo simply would not work.  I think that Iriminage, or Shionage
>would be a far superior choice in this position.  Just drive his head
>through the ground, that should stop him :)

   I.e., use a technique that controls their center to throw them.

   However, I disagree that sankyo and kotegaeshi only rely 
   on pain.  With sankyo, by twisting the arm into a tight "bowstring" 
   (i.e. slightly more extended than one would do to inflict maximum 
   pain), one has a very convenient lever to control uke. Here one 
   immediately manipulates uke without waiting for any "pain effect".

   Given a dynamic attack, kotegaeshi can be used to maneuver uke's
   center outside of their base of support, felling them (although
   I wouldn't count on such an attack from someone drugged out.  
   In this case, along with nikyo, you'd at least have one less hand 
   to worry about ;-).
   
   Not that I'd use a lock on someone on PCP, I'd want to throw them
   on their head.  Does anyone here have any evidence that a concussion 
   would *not* stop even someone on PCP ??

     -- Ted --

==========================================================
  Ted Camus                          Box 1910 CS Dept 
  tac@cs.brown.edu                   Brown University
  tac@browncs.BITNET                 Providence, RI 02912
From: ph2sct@sdcc14.ucsd.edu (Dzu Nguyen)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Advice for newbies: hapkido
Date: 11 Dec 92 23:54:45 GMT
Organization: University of California, San Diego

That was so neat. Almost sickeningly neat. Your enthusiasm is great
but don't pour all that honey on it.

Dave (using Dzu's account)
From: mary@Cayman.COM (Mary Malmros)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Just Curious...
Date: 11 Dec 92 17:32:50 GMT
Organization: Cayman Systems Inc., Cambridge, MA
In-reply-to: nahilgendorf@honors.uoregon.edu's message of 9 Dec 92 18:33:05 GMT


In article <nahilgendorf.36@honors.uoregon.edu> nahilgendorf@honors.uoregon.edu (Nathan Hilgendorf) writes:

   In article <1992Dec8.151505.8324@walter.cray.com> radner@cray.com (Lauren Radner) writes:



   >Are there any cultures out there whose martial arts have *not*
   >at some time or another been disguised as 'folk dances' of some
   >sort? Maybe Korea's TKD since it's relatively 'new', but perhaps
   >some other Korean martial arthas been "dance-ized"?? ?


   TKD new? No, sorry, I don't think so. TKD is one of the oldest martial arts 
   in Asia, tracing its origins from the 1st C. BC or earlier.

   -Nate

I better tell my instructor this *grin*  He'll be so pleased to know that
he's in error.  

On a more serious note...what he did say was this: Taekwondo is about
forty years old and is a synthesized art (I guess that's the right way
to put it) rather than an organically-grown art.  It does derive 
techniques from older Korean styles such as taekyon and subak, but 
they, in turn, don't go back to no 1st century BC.  Try the Silla dynasty
for taekyon, not sure about subak, but you probably could get a good
idea in Draeger's "Asian Fighting Arts".

So sue me, my book's at home...

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Mary Malmros     | Cayman Systems Inc, 26 Landsdowne St, Cambridge, MA 02139
 mary@cayman.com  | Phone 617-494-1999  Fax 617-494-5167  AppleLink CAYMAN.TECH

Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts