HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Organization: Rohm and Haas Company
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 09:50:34 EST
From: Thomas J Cozzolino <RBNTJC@rohvm1.rohmhaas.com>
Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk
Subject: Internet Usage by Industry?

Folks,

Our company is in the process of gathering information on Internet
usage by other companies, especially other chemical companies.

o  Is anyone willing to share their experiences, successes, and
   usage patterns regarding the Internet?

o  What are the value-added benefits of using the Internet for
   your Research and Business?

o  What are the biggest challenges facing you, the providers of
   Internet services?

o  How difficult has it been to change your particular corporate or
   Information Technology / Information Services cultures to embrace
   this "brave new world" view?

Any and all help is appreciated.  I will post a summary if there is
interest.  Also, if I should post this to other newsgroups, that
information is also much appreciated.  Since this a rather far-reaching
query, I figured I'd post it here, as well as other newsgroups.

Thanks for reading.  Please reply directly if possible.

+============================================+
|   Thomas J. Cozzolino - Rohm and Haas Co.   =
|   InterNet:    tcozz@rohmhaas.com            =
|                                               =
|     Internet Access for Everyone..             =
|         Isn't it time?                          =
|                                                  =
|   - Opinions expressed are my own, not            =
|     necessarily those of Rohm and Haas Company     =
+=====================================================+
From: Jim.Riddle@inns.omahug.org (Jim Riddle)
Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk
Subject: Software as PE
Date: 15 Dec 92 05:54:50 CST
Reply-To: jim.riddle@inns.omahug.org
Organization: Inns of Court, Papillion, NE
Followup-To: comp.org.eff.talk

I've been working, although only nominally to date, with the concept of
software becoming an engineering discipline.  When I say working with, I
mean I have frequently been discussing this with other PEs and at my
professional society meetings.  I am working to get a better ear on a
couple of the state boards where I'm registered.
 
Being only registered for about 20 years and now in 6.9 states (very
pending in Missouri, right now), I was somewhat chagrined by the new
Texas law.  Compared to anyone else, it's highly egocentric and basically
sucks and their fees are exhorbitant.  
 
You, by the way, exhibit some common misconceptions.  If a PE truly took
someone else's design and signed off on it for a bridge, they would be
subject to criminal prosecution in any jurisdictions in which I'm
registered.  The PE signature and seal is a certification that the
engineering took place by the PE or under the PE's direct
supervision/responsible charge.  No, I would _not_ sign off on someone
else's bridge design.
 
OBTW, I'm registered as a mining and environmental engineer, and I did
spend about 10 years explicitly in software, working on Department of
Defense contracts.
 
Jim

Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk
From: bobd@marune.acs.ohio-state.edu (Bob DeBula)
Subject: Re: CPSR & Caller ID?
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 19:19:10 GMT

In article <1992Dec17.001447.11166@uswmrg.mrg.uswest.com.mrg.uswest.com> chris@engineer.mrg.uswest.com (Chris Fedde) writes:
>
>Mr Francis' point is well taken; my phone ringing is an invason of
>MY privacy.  The question is "who's privacy is invaded by providing the
>caller id to the called party?"  There are three interested agencies
>(parties) involved in a telephone call; the caller, the called and the
>network.
>
>The network's interests are simple.  Provide accurate, high quality
>service to the caller.  The network is not interested in the called
>party since they don't pay the bill.   That's not to say that the called
>can't be a caller at some other time, but for this transaction the
>caller foots the bill.  It is apparent that the network's privacy is not
>invaded by providing the caller ID. 
>

I don't mean to pick on Chris' post, it was just where I happened
to pick up this thread today. On to thread related commentary:

As the purchaser of a privacy enhancing phone service option
(we have an unlisted number), I will be very peeved if I start
receiving sales calls because some marketing slime starts
selling my number as part of a "likely purchasers" list generated
from caller ID.  A big part of the reason we got an unlisted number 
was to prevent sales calls (they sometimes still happen due to 
organizations or computered phone ads just running the gamit of
all possible phone numbers in a certain area).

At the very least, folks who pay for the service of having their
phone number unlisted should have their privacy guaranteed.

I'd like to see the burden the other way about though. No caller ID
*unless* the caller specifies that it is OK with them (or even just
provide some mechanism for the average phone customer to request that they
not be IDed). I think caller ID has the potential to be a resource
wasting nuisance on par with gratuitous junk mail. What is the
huge societal benefit to be accrued from caller ID anyway (other
than making the Ferengi style marketeers happy that is)?
-- 
==========================================================================
              Disclaimer: These are my views, not the U's

        "If it's in the paper it must be true!" --- D. Doright 
Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk
From: jgd@dixie.com (John De Armond)
Subject: Re: Licencing of computer professionals
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 92 10:03:56 GMT
Organization: Dixie Communications Public Access.  The Mouth of the South.
Distribution: inet

spp@zabriskie.berkeley.edu (Steve Pope) writes:

>The reasons plumbers, general contracters, roofers etc.
>are licensed is it allows them to put a mechanic's lein
>on your house or other property.  

Nope.  No license required to apply a mechanic's lien.  All it requires
is a contract that permits same.  Some crafts may have laws that imply
the right to lien with the purchaser's giving permission to start.
About a decade ago, my company slapped a lien against a certain
nuclear plant in New York that never got to start up.  The lien was
for payment for services.  Services involved designing and installing
the plant's radiation monitoring system.  No licensed professionals
were involved.  Only one very nasty lawyer under my employ.

These crafts are licensed because of an unholy synergism between 
the government and the "regulated".  The government likes it because
it lets them collect fees and build empires.  The "regulated" like
it because the process raises the cost of entry and protects their
turfs.

If you don't believe that, stand around and watch the Ga State legislature's
attempt to get rid of licensing beauticians.  The ones who scream the
loudest are the bureaucrats and the beauticians.  So far successfully.

John

-- 
John De Armond, WD4OQC               |Interested in high performance mobility?  
Performance Engineering Magazine(TM) | Interested in high tech and computers? 
Marietta, Ga                         | Send ur snail-mail address to 
jgd@dixie.com                        | perform@dixie.com for a free sample mag
Need Usenet public Access in Atlanta?  Write Me for info on Dixie.com.
Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk
From: mnemonic@eff.org (Mike Godwin)
Subject: Re: Fun things to do to RTM
Originator: mnemonic@eff.org
Organization: Electronic Frontier Foundation
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 19:42:55 GMT

In article <1992Dec14.190356.23433@mksol.dseg.ti.com> mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539) writes:

>It wasn't my intention to imply that these were Mr. Godwin's exact
>words, as he ought to know if he's spent any amount of time on the net
>at all.

Whether it's common on the Net to invent "quotations" is irrelevant to the
issue of whether it is ethically acceptable to do so.


--Mike



-- 
Mike Godwin,    |"Everything one invents is true."
mnemonic@eff.org| 
(617) 864-0665  |                           --Flaubert
EFF, Cambridge  |
From: rat@ruth.UUCP (David Douthitt)
Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk
Subject: Re: Licencing of computer professionals
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 92 15:01:34 CST
Organization: Network XXIII - +1 608 222 9253

karl@ddsw1.mcs.com (Karl Denninger) writes:

| All I can say is this -- I have seen over 200 resumes in the last six months
| from wanna-be people to work for me.  Every one screaming loud and clear how
| well qualified they are on the basis of their education.  NOT ONE OF THESE
| PEOPLE IS, IMHO, SUITABLE TO HIRE.  Why?  They all want to trumpet education 
| instead of their >practical< experience.  I'm not interested in someone's
| GPA; I'm interested in what they know and how they approach a problem.  You
| do >not< learn these things in a classroom; you learn them with your hands
| on the material.

I wish there were MORE people in CS hiring programmers that way.

| I have over ten years of experience in this industry.  I have no degree; I 
| quit college when I started making more money writing code than I was paying
| out in tuition.  My department head said "you'll never amount to anything,
| and you'll never get a job".  Wrong on both counts.

Maybe then.  In most cases today, you need that .10c piece of paper.  I can
remember trying for computer operator positions and being told "you were one
of our top choices, but the person we hired had a degree."  To me, computer
operations can almost be a no-brainer for any decent programmer/hacker.

Maybe that's what I get for living in a university town...

| Some of the people I work with that have the best levels of talent have no
| degrees, or if they do they aren't in a computer-related discipline.  

Point to ponder: consider Clifford Stoll - remember what his education was
in?  Hint: it's NOT programming....

| An education is meant to teach you to think.  If you know how to think then
| no problem is insurmountable.  If you don't then all the "education" in the
| name of a technical trade school (which is what C.S. programs are anyway) is
| worth a tinker's damn.  

I resent refering to "technical trade school" as a dirty word, and would
not consider C.S. and D.P. programs to be close.

| Software design is NOT a science.  It, and programming, is an art form.

Most folks don't seem to grasp that simple fact...


--
UUCP: ....!fullfeed.com!ruth!rat        |  Network XXIII - +1 608 222 9253
InterNet: rat@ruth.UUCP                 |  80Megs+ of Usenet/Fido programs!
Fidonet: David Douthitt 1:121/23        |
"...because appealing to the masses has |  Files available more ways than
 never appealed to us."                 |  any other BBS in America!
Files via: anon uucp, Fidonet FREQ, mail to archive-server@ruth.uucp, etc.
From: marc@dumbcat.sf.ca.us (Marco S Hyman)
Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk
Subject: Re: Professional registration
Date: 20 Dec 92 04:28:06 GMT
Organization: MSH Software, Hayward, CA

In article <1992Dec18.124017.28360@cbfsb.cb.att.com> cooper@cbnewsg.cb.att.com (Ralph 'Hairy' Moonen) writes:
 > - Of all people in the computer industry I've met, those without degrees
 >   seem to be:better at what they do than those with degrees
 >	 	more idealistic
 >	 	happier in their personal life
 >	 	slightly anarchistic
 >	 	pot smokers
 >	 	pink floyd fans
		^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Yeah, but none of the modern crap.  The good stuff like "Careful with that
Axe, Eugene", "Set the Controls for the Heart of the Sun", and "A Small
Gathering of Furry Animals Gathered in a Cave and Groving with a Pict".
(I probably got all three of those titles wrong -- the memory isn't the same
25 years later).

As to degrees:  the smart manager will weigh the degree with all the other
information in chosing a new hire.  Not all managers are smart.  Some
companies have policies that get in the way.  I've been in the business for
20+ years, so my lack of a degree doesn't hurt me -- now; they either want
what I've got or not.

In the early days the lack of a degree kept me out of some jobs.  This was not
a problem when known.  If company X required a degree and let me know it I
didn't waste their time and didn't let them waste mine.  However, on one
occasion a company kept me waiting many weeks and never actually said no!  It
turned out they wanted somebody just like me, but with a degree.

 > I say, get the best person for the job, regardless of 
 > degrees.

Good advice.

// marc
-- 
marc@dumbcat.sf.ca.us -- pacbell!dumbcat!marc
Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk
Subject: channel
From: john.kutas@grapevine.lrk.ar.us (John Kutas) 
Date: 18 Dec 92 11:14:00 GMT
Reply-To: john.kutas@grapevine.lrk.ar.us (John Kutas) 
Distribution: world
Organization: The GrapeVine BBS *** N. Little Rock, AR *** (501) 753-8121

can anyone tell me the name of this conf and where it comes
from.....thanks
---
 * Swingers Connection BBS(tm) (215) 724-5324 HST
 * PostLink(tm) v1.04  SWINGCON (#1849) : RelayNet(tm) HUB
From: Jim.Riddle@inns.omahug.org (Jim Riddle)
Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk
Subject: Re: Software as PE
Date: 16 Dec 92 05:56:36 CST
Reply-To: jim.riddle@inns.omahug.org
Organization: Inns of Court, Papillion, NE
Followup-To: comp.org.eff.talk

In a message dated 15-DEC-92, Jack Winslade writes:

>In a message dated 15-DEC-92, Jim Riddle writes:

>>I've been working, although only nominally to date, with the concept of
>>software becoming an engineering discipline.  When I say working with, I
>>mean I have frequently been discussing this with other PEs and at my
>>professional society meetings.  I am working to get a better ear on a
>>couple of the state boards where I'm registered.
> 
>I can see how an optional certification like this might add some
>credibility to the profession of software engineering.  However, the way
>state PE exams go, I can just see it full of questions about such things
>as beam stress.
> 
>Good day      JSW


Back in the old days (1970) when I took the Engineer In Training exam it
was state-specific (rather than 1 national exam as now) and contained
your choice of 1 problem from algebra/trig, 1 or 2 calculus problems, 1
or 2 chemistry problems, 1 or 2 physics problems and 3 to 6 engineering
problems from civil, mechanical, electrical, structural, fluid mechanics
and thermodynamics.  Each of the sciences had 6-8 questions to choose
from, engineering had something like 30.
 
The PE exam (Principles and practices) was your choice of any 10 problems
from 110, comprising 5 from each of the Colorado-recognized 22
disciplines of engineering.
 
This was kind of a fair way of doing it.
 
now there is the uniform national PE exam which is heavily
civil/mechanical oriented.  We are working on a specific environmental
engineering exam, for example, which is less heavily c/m oriented.  Even
the new mining exam is one that I personally wouldn't relish taking,
although that's what I am.
 
It would be altogether possible to construct a software ENGINEERING exam,
though, as compared to a code-generation exam, which would be fair to
whatever systems and languages a particular candidate might be trained
in.
 
Jim
From: Wes.Perkhiser@ivgate.omahug.org (Wes Perkhiser)
Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk
Subject: Re: Calif DMV DEMANDS SSN for Driver License!?
Date: 20 Dec 92 12:26:19 CST
Reply-To: wes.perkhiser@ivgate.omahug.org
Organization: 
Followup-To: comp.org.eff.talk

In a message of <Dec 19 21:41>, Rip Torn writes:

 RT>Who would you serve?  The fed law states that failure to provide 
 RT>services
 RT>because someone will not give there ssn carries a min fine of 
 RT>$1000 (excluding
 RT>for tax and ssn uses.)

Citation for this?

Wes 


Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk
From: strnlght@netcom.com (David Sternlight)
Subject: Re: Caller ID solution? (was Re: ACLU/EFF and Scanner restrictions?)
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 19:51:56 GMT


Joe Thomas posts a simple and elegant solution to the problem of
"rights" in conflict with respect to Caller ID. However, it
would produce an annoying delay in many phone calls. Far easier
(since the caller should assume he WILL be IDed) would be an
announcement or special tone on lines that don't ID. Thus that
could be used for suicide prevention lines, etc., a legitimate
place to provide assurance of no ID. This would have the result
of interfering with the fewest calls.

In this message I had continued by discussing the substance of the
caller ID issue, but have deleted that matter because I don't
want to rehearse the arguments yet again--we've had more than enough
of that--but just respond to Thomas' suggestion.
From: david.brooks@cutting.hou.tx.us (David Brooks)
Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk
Subject: Re: Fun things to do to R
Date: 10 Dec 92 14:27:00 GMT
Reply-To: david.brooks@cutting.hou.tx.us (David Brooks)
Organization: The Cutting Edge - Houston, TX - 713-466-1525

FJM> You should probably try taking this to one of the gun control groups.
FJM> I think you might get some numbers that would open your eyes a bit.
FJM> The probability of injury from a computer is probably higher than the
FJM> probability of an injury from a gun, if you scale your numbers by the
FJM> quantity of the things that are out there, for example.  And if you
FJM> restrict yourself to legally owned and licensed weapons, the
FJM> probability drops even further.  Some people would probably make an
FJM> argument that the probability of injury from guns is negative, if you
FJM> take into account the injuries that people receive because they DON'T
FJM> have one.  :-)

   Aw c'mon Fred. If hundreds or thousands of people were being injured by
computers every year don't you think the media would be playing it up to
the hilt? Do you honestly expect ANYONE to believe that computers are more
dangerous than guns? And what about the injuries that are prevented by
computers? I'm willing to bet Saddam Hussein missed his computer systems
pretty badly while the United forces were bombing Baghdad back to the
bronze age.

   Lighten up man! Computers don't bite!

FJM> --
FJM> "Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to
FJM> live
FJM> in the real world."   -- Mary Shafer, NASA Ames Dryden
FJM> -!---------------------------------------------------------------------
FJM> -!-----
FJM> Fred.McCall@dseg.ti.com - I don't speak for others and they don't speak
FJM> for me.

     * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
     *                                   *     While there is a    *
     *          David J Brooks           * lower class I am in it. *
     *                                   *     While there is a    *
     *   David.Brooks@cutting.hou.tx.us  *  criminal element I am  *
     *                                   *         of it.          *
     *          No Disclaimers           *  While there is a soul  *
     *                                   * in prison I am not free *
     * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

 * Q-Blue v0.7 [NR] *                         
----
+-------------------------------------------+
| The Cutting Edge BBS (cutting.hou.tx.us)  |
| Houston, Texas, USA    +1 713 466 1525    |
+-------------------------------------------+
Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk
From: tinsel@uiuc.edu (Thomas Aaron Insel)
Subject: Re: Licencing of computer professionals
Originator: tai50080@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu
Reply-To: tinsel@uiuc.edu
Organization: Masticating Illini
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 02:53:18 GMT

Jim.Riddle@inns.omahug.org (Jim Riddle) writes:

>[I write:]
> >Dare I ask, how would any of this be enforced.  Also, especially since
> >copyright for computer programs currently falls under the same category
> >as copyright for novels, does anyone see any free-speech problem with
> >licensing programmers?

> How any of this is enforced would be that if you _do_ work for someone
> else and it fails, then your failure to be registered would be
> prima-facie evidence of incompetence and, of itself in most instances, a
> crime, so your customer would not only have an open-and-shut lawsuit but
> the opportunity to have criminal charges against you.

#include <stdio.h>
main() { 
    printf("Hello, ma.\n"); 
    }

Since I'm not a licensed practical engineer, you're saying it would 
(hypothetically, of course) be illegal for me to sell this computer
program to anyone.  Since the law doesn't make much of a distinction
between forms of software, it would be equally illegal for me to sell
the object code on a disk for the purchaser to compile and run.  Of
course, it would be equally illegal for me to sell a printout of the
program.  And, there's certainly no legal difference between a printed
and a handwritten copy of something.  In summary, it would be illegal
for me to write the above words and symbols on a notecard and exchange
it for money.

Now, tell me this isn't different than plumbing.
-- 
Thomas Insel (tinsel@uiuc.edu)
  "Familiarity breeds contempt--and children."  -- Mark Twain
Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk,alt.comp.acad-freedom.talk,alt.censorship,isu.cc.general,isu.talk.usenet-policy
From: john@iastate.edu (John Hascall)
Subject: Re: ONE YEAR AGO: New news censorship policy at Iowa State University
X-Disclaimer: My opinions only.
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, IA
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1992 06:16:52 GMT

kadie@eff.org (Carl M. Kadie) writes:
}linda@iastate.edu (Linda Hutchison) writes:
}>Carl, I suppose I'm one of the "bad guys", being part of the Comp Ctr
}>administration, and I can tell you that here at Iowa State University
}>                                                ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
}>we're not particularly affected or concerned with articles that appear in the
}>Daily Iowan -- the University of Iowa student newspaper.
}>                   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

}Then what did motivate the suppression policy? Here is the timetable:

}Oct 18, 1991: A ISU sys admin reports that his committee has
}              written a newsgroup policy based on Library policy. He
}              calls this "the proverbial ounce of prevention."

I really appreciate how ISU has made me look so naive and stupid, I must say.

}Nov 25, 1991: The Daily Iowan publishes an article headlined 'UI
}              Computer Files Contain Pornography'
}Dec 12, 1991: Computation Center announces a new [bogus] Netnews policy.
                   :

The ISU Comp Ctr Administration deciding something in only 17 days?
Not bloody likely.

}>We were and still are dealing with interpretation of state laws and are acting
}>in response to recommendations from the university's legal advisors.

Phhbbt.                                                   (snappy comeback, eh?)

}>A fact that keeps getting totally ignored is that no student, faculty or staff
}>member is denied access to any newsgroup.  Get a username on the HDS.  I agree
}>the newsreader there is less fully-featured than the newsreaders on PV and
}>other systems.
}[...]

}I believe an account on WYLBER (the inconvenient HDS system) is only
}one requirement. User's must also sign a form saying that they want
}access to alt.sex, etc. (I.e. They must sign a "pervert list".)

Problems with using `Wylbur':

   * You must sign the `perverts list' -- the machine readable copy
     of which has been *proven* insecure.
   * You must pay to use Wylbur after a certain amount of use.
   * Wylbur newsreader extremely primitive.
   * Lack of short courses on the use of Wylbur.
   * Wylbur file system can't handle some files (long lines).
   * Wylbur lacks basic utilities (uudecode, shar, tar, uncompress).

Of course, it is no secret that I think this policy is extremely brain damaged.

John
-- 
John Hascall                   ``An ill-chosen word is the fool's messenger.''
Systems Software Engineer
Project Vincent
Iowa State University Computation Center  +  Ames, IA  50011  +  515/294-9551