From: adams@spss.com (Steve Adams)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Luke, Derrida, Papists, Luther...and Steve Adams.
Date: 17 Dec 92 16:06:18 GMT
Organization: SPSS Inc.

hartigan@ac.dal.ca writes:


>In article <adams.724518272@spssig>, adams@spss.com (Steve Adams) writes:
>> hartigan@ac.dal.ca writes:
>> 
>It's an intriguing thought, but alas, you're right.  Have you ever thought
>of looking at Elaine Pagels' book on this subject?  She's pretty highly
>respected, I think.
The 'Pesher' texts?  About Qumran?  My understanding is that she's way out
in left field, with some provably inaccurate understandings of the Essenes
& Qumran.

>>>Hey...I accepted Jesus into my heart and I do the best I can to 
>>>live according to the Gospel message as I understand it.  
>> That is pretty much all that one can do...faith, not works, eh?
>Well...as I said below, the accepting part is pretty meaningless to me,
>because it was pretty clear that I was just saying things I didn't believe.
>I guess, technically, I've done my part. :) 
You have to confess with your mind and your heart that Jesus is Lord...

>>>I don't believe in Yahweh, except that I believe he is a real fictional 
>>>character.  
>>Jesus appears to have believed in Yahweh...doesn't that count for anything?
>It does, you know, because I think old JC was a pretty straight shooter.
He was that.  Unfortunately, quite a bit of it seems hidden.  It sneaks out
on occasion, such as Matthew 23, when he reads the riot act to the Pharisees.

>But the next question is: Who's Yahweh?  I think JC was speaking in metaphoric
>terms for an aspect of life that could go by many other names. 
>Jewish tradition personifies this aspect. This has its ups and downs.
>One one hand, it's a good metaphor, but on the other, it is easily
>misunderstood and taken as a literal term instead of a metaphoric term.
So Jacob (Israel) was wrestling with the metaphor...ie, struggling with the
concept of God?? ;-)

[About Revelation & metaphors]

>Of course, if you're living in your imagination, then you're denying the 
>natural world -- in other words, the stars fall from the sky.
>
>Now that's poetry!  Just a tiny taste of what Revelation is about,
>courtesy of R.W. Emerson...someday I'll work the whole thing out!
Hmm..interesting thought...I'm just not as attuned to poetry...

[About 'belief' vs. 'unknowing belief']

>>Hmm.  So what you are saying is that to have real faith, one must doubt?
>>In other words, if I struggle with God's existence, then I'm doing ok?
>>My answer to the question is "I believe so, but can't show you any proof."
>>In other words, not simply 'yes'...
>
>To have real faith is to live in God as comfortably as you live in your
>kitchen or living room. "Struggling" is a just a battle between two images
>in your mind. The fact of the matter is: We don't know at ALL if 
>Big Daddy in the Sky exists or not, and there is no way to ever know. 
Well, in theory, I'll know at the Rapture, or at judgement...;-)

>In fact, there is no way to know whether or not you are dreaming at this
>moment. (sound familiar? :) 
I seem to recall a brief(!) conversation on this point a while ago!

>Because it is impossible to _know_, it is meaningless to believe. 
>To believe is to think that you know, although you may not know why
>you know.  Since we cannot know, sincere belief is delusion. This is a 
>very tricky point...but there is no getting away from it. 
> 
>This does not eliminate insincere belief -- that is to say, recognizing
>that you don't know, and can never know, but still operating
>as if God exists, because it pleases you to do so. After all, he might!
I don't see the difference here...and how is this insincere?  If I
acknowledge that I can't really know, yet I still sincerely 'think' that
God exists????  I'm SOOO confused by what you're getting at here...

>>>Probably you believe because it seems to you true that God exists. 
>>>In other words you have certain questions, questions which are important
>>>to you,  which the "God" hypothesis seems to answer adequately. Sound right?
>> 
>> Yes.
>
>In other words, you have a set of ideas about life which do not seem to 
>adequately account for life as you experience it. So 
>you have questions. You have found that one way to deal with this
>problem is to adopt another set of ideas which satisfies your
>desire to have the universe make sense. 
Likely so.  'God' explains quite a few things that otherwise I wouldn't
have an acceptable explanation for...

 -Steve
--
  The opinions expressed above are those of the author and not SPSS, Inc.
                         -------------------
   adams@spss.com                                  Phone: (312) 329-3522
   Steve Adams        "Space-age cybernomad"       Fax:   (312) 329-3558
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