From: skinner@sp1.csrd.uiuc.edu (Gregg Skinner)
Subject: Jesus' Claim about food and clothes
Reply-To: g-skinner@uiuc.edu
Organization: UIUC Center for Supercomputing Research and Development
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 92 21:01:10 GMT

(This somewhat lengthy post is the first in what will probably become
a long thread discussing Jesus' claim,

   Seek first the kingdom of God and its righteousness, and
   all these things [food and clothes, from the context] will
   be given you.

The claim has been discussed before.  This is intended as both
introduction and review.)

First, some relevant considerations posted earlier by another
particpant:

>It is possible to trivially satisfy the claim.  For instance, if your
>definition of "someone seeking the kingdom of God" is so strict that nobody
>satisfies it, certainly everyone in that (empty) set has food and clothes.

>The claim also can be trivial in other ways.  For instance, if you consider
>someone who is malnourished but not dying of hunger as having enough food, it's
>going to be hard to find kingdom-seekers who don't--they'd all be dead.
>Similarly, if "enough clothes" means "has one shirt and one pair of pants", it
>is going to be hard to find _anyone_ who doesn't have enough clothing.

>Or if, for instance, you define "kingdom-seeking" so someone must do things
>that only rich people have the time or resources to do--for instance, require
>donating a thousand dollars to churches, which people without food/clothing
>can't afford--it's also trivial.

>Finally, you have to _really_mean_ "everyone".  You can't just mean "more
>kingdom-seekers have food and clothing than non-kingdom-seekers", because if
>you do, billions of well-fed Chinese are suddenly relevant again.

[The final one seems fairly obvious to me, but I suppose it doesn't
hurt to clarify.]

I add:

In the end, of course, anyone who wants to investigate whether the
claim is true must decide for himself what is meant by "kingdom of
God" (Jesus speaks of it at length) and what constitutes being given
food and clothes.  To that we apply our own experience and the
experience of others to reach a conclusion, if possible.

It is in the hope of hearing the experience of others that I have
introduced Jesus' claim to this forum.  Also, I encourage others to
share their interpretation of what Jesus meant.  I am working on my
own contribution as well.

An earlier participant has suggested that the claim is folly, without
regard to any of the above considerations.  Since, as is noted above,
for one possible set of "givens" the claim may be trivially satisfied,
I find this suggestion amazing.  Perhaps I do not understand what is
meant by "folly."

I have a couple of observations resulting from the last time Jesus'
claim was discussed:

In the past some have insisted upon casting me very rigidly in the
role of "defender of the claim," attributing the claim to me instead
of Jesus.  This is not a role I wish to play, for I do not pretend to
know the truth of the matter.  I do have enough respect for Jesus to
believe that his claim warrants investigation, though, so I am willing
to play a the role of advocate where it is necessary to encourage
discussion.  But my continued participation is contingent upon
participant recognizing the claim is not my own.

Also, the discussion will be smoother if everyone sticks to the
original claim.  In the last discussion some had a tendency to switch
to claims which only sound similar.  For example, the following
paraphrase appeared, "Jesus provides food and shelter to anyone who
believes in him."  In my opinion, this differs too much from the
original to be of much use.

And now, we embark...
--
Gregg Skinner       I do not speak for any organization.