From: pharvey@quack.sac.ca.us (Paul Harvey)
Subject: Re: Is it Christian values or chavinism?
Organization: The Duck Pond public unix: +1 408 249 9630, log in as 'guest'.
	<1992Oct8.173049.20817@advtech.uswest.com>
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 02:38:09 GMT

In article <1992Oct8.173049.20817@advtech.uswest.com> 
steven@jaynes ( Steve Novak) writes:
>> = (Suzanne Forgach) writes:
>>> = (Ivan A Derzhanski):
>>> Appearing, maybe, but I think Occam's Razor cuts the other way.  I'm
>>> told that Jesus was a very unusual kind of human being, as testified
>>> by a lot of stories about him, and therefore I try not to assume that
>>> he shared much with the rest of mankind.
>>The whole point of his coming was to share EVERYTHING, including death,
>>with the rest of mankind.
>Gee, what a generous guy.  Sounds rather macabre to me.
>This makes no sense, Forgach.  Even if Jesus WAS a god, why should
>anyone care that he could fake being agonizingly tortured to death?
>Do you REALLY think an "all-powerful god" would be actually affected by
>some bizarre human "son" being killed?  

This is the central paradox of Christianity. We are told that Jesus died
an agonizing death on the cross for our "supposed" sins. If Jesus was a
man or prophet, as Moslems believe, then this would certainly be a great
deed, one worth taking notice of. But, Christianity goes to great
lengths to try to prove that Jesus was a God or Son of God, thus
confusing monotheism with duotheism or tritheism and negating the "deed"
of dying for our sins. How can a God or Son of God die, let alone die an
agonizing death? Was this all a cheap stunt to try to gain converts? Did
Paul make this stuff up to generate a good story? Apparently the only
answer is that Jesus was sometimes a man, when that was convenient and
sometimes a God when that was convenient and sometimes a Son of God when
that was convenient. Few Christians care to discuss this problem because
there is no valid solution. The solution lies in assuming the Bible to
be mythical and thus the myth of Jesus is seen in a metaphorical light.
Metaphorically, what is going on is that man is wrestling with the
notion of God and man being one and the same. The paradoxes inherint in
such a theory are difficult to solve. Paleolithic humans saw animal
gods, because animals were seen as more powerfull. Neolithic humans
began to see female goddesses because as humans began to take control of
nature, to domesticate nature, women were seen as closer to the gods.
Then the patriarchal gods assume control, as can be seen in Genesis. Eve
is born FROM Adam, thus reversing reality and man asserts his right to a
male God, but the Lord of the Hebrew scriptures is distant and brooding.
He doesn't even have a name, He says, "I am that I am", thus remaining
transcendent of the human being. Then we read of Jesus, who presumably
IS GOD, with a human name and a human (male) form. And now we have a
delicate situation, one we are still uncomfortable with today. Are we
God? Are we in charge? Are we all there is? Is there no greater being
than us? When we insult God, do we insult ourselves? When we insult
ourselves, do we insult God? God created man in His image, man and woman
He created thus, and ... will we return the favor?
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