HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: schuldy@progress.COM (Mark Schuldenfrei)
Subject: Re: Attributed arms; heraldic consulting (was Re: pentacles on arms)
Organization: Progress Software Corp.
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 19:41:22 GMT

I asked for advise, and Arval gave it to me.

I asked (in the context of passing or failing a device submission):
  Correct me if I am wrong (especially Arval), but the Rules of Submission,
  as written, don't allow a herald to encourage or discourage squat.

And Arval answered that during a consultation, a herald should always
cover what the rules do and don't allow, as well as to give advice
for or against choices, styles, or symbolism.

Correct, I overstated. The Rules for Submission don't speak at all
to heraldic style, and encouragement or discouragement during consults.
But they also don't allow returns except for clear-cut rules violations.
(With the possible exception of two judgement calls, with which we
are very loathe to use: obtrusive modernity, and offensiveness.)

	Tibor
--
Mark Schuldenfrei (schuldy@progress.com)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: shafer@rigel.dfrf.nasa.gov (Mary Shafer)
Subject: Re: pentacles on arms
Organization: NASA Dryden, Edwards, Cal.
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 18:10:22 GMT

OK, I _have_ to ask.  Isn't the Eastern Star emblem a pentacle?
With mystical symbols, too?  Why can the Masons bear it but the
SCA can't?

I mean, I see Eastern Star bumperstickers and decals all the time
and no one seems to be burning them as witches.

--
Mary Shafer  DoD #0362 KotFR NASA Dryden Flight Research Facility, Edwards, CA
shafer@rigel.dfrf.nasa.gov                    Of course I don't speak for NASA
 "There's no kill like a guns kill." LCDR "Hoser" Satrapa, gunnery instructor
                       "A kill is a kill."  Anonymous
From: jtn@nutter.cs.vt.edu (Terry Nutter)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Prince of Thieves battles
Date: 10 Sep 92 17:43:32 GMT
Followup-To: rec.org.sca
Organization: The Rialto

Greetings all, but especially Corun and William, from Angharad.

Guys, please chill out!  Is any movie, however good or bad, worth all
this bad feeling?

Cheers,

-- Angharad/Terry
From: rancke@diku.dk (Hans Rancke-Madsen)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: History vs. dreams (Was: consort gender)
Date: 6 Sep 92 19:52:01 GMT
Organization: Department of Computer Science, U of Copenhagen

greg@silver.lcs.mit.edu (Hossein Ali Qomi (mka Gregory F. Rose)) writes:

>These remarks identify the problem quite well.  We have a choice.  We can
>use one of two decision-rules in admitting or excluding practices from
>our recreation:
>       1.  Historical documentation of medieval practice;
>       2.  The modern preferences, prejudices, and ideologies of modern
>               people.

>The first has, at least, the virtue of some degree of objectivity.  The
>latter is entirely arbitrary, if enforced, or no decision rule at all.

>By and large we tend to accept the second decision rule by default.  That is
>why the SCA by and large has as much to do with the Middle Ages as quantum
>mechanics.  Other people have every right to live their fantasies as they
>choose.  I'm a little tired of having their fantasies imposed on my
>historical recreation and even more tired of being told that their
>fantasies have anything whatsoever to do with medieval history, as the
>grotesque formula, "the current middle ages," implies.

>We hear a great deal of lip-service paid to tolerance of people's "dreams,"
>because any other course would drive people out of the Society.  The net
>effect of the current decision rule is to drive out the medievalists.

I hope that no-one will take it amiss that someone who is not a member
of the Society shoves his oar in for a moment. I read about the SCA more
than 15 years ago in a couple of old issues of "Amra", and I was
fascinated. (I even tried to organize something similar here in Denmark,
but alas the scheme died after the third tournament). But the Society
described in those old Amras were unquestionably the "current middle
ages" and not the "historical reenactment". I've been browsing on the
Rialto for the year and more we've recieved it here in Denmark, and I've
been saddened to note the vigour of the historical reenactment movement.
If anything it seems to me that an insistence on historical correctness
will drive out the dreamers. And if things develop to a point where a
split becomes inevetable (note the if), then I think you should remember
that the dreamers were there first.



      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
------------
"I know there are some people in the world who do not tolerate their
fellow human beings, and I just can't _stand_ people like that!"
                                (after Tom Lehrer)
From: lb5532@neuman.sbc.com (Larry Bell)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Pentacles
Date: 11 Sep 92 20:36:11 GMT
Organization: Southwestern Bell Telephone, St. Louis, MO

In article <1992Sep9.145751.270@progress.com> schuldy@progress.COM (Mark Schuldenfrei) writes:
>
>
>(Bertramesque Tangent): I had read a few years ago in the paper, that
>the last of the Tolkein Society's had failed and closed.  Is this true?
>
>	Tibor
>--
>Mark Schuldenfrei (schuldy@progress.com)

There are many Tolkien Societies world-wide (ever growing in Eastern Europe and  Russia) although those in the U.S.A. are far fewer than in years past.  I will   be happy to supply a list of all known Tolkien groups if anyone is interested.   ---Hildifons Took (at your service and your family's)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: ehrlich@acsu.buffalo.edu (Karen Ehrlich)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Iron chicken (was Re: bunny round ...)
Date: 8 Sep 92 04:28:44 GMT
Followup-To: rec.org.sca
Distribution: na
Organization: State University of New York at Buffalo/Comp Sci

>
>"Iron chicken" is a defencive stance where the sword hand is above the head(tip
>down crossing the top of the shield) to protect the head.
>
>otto

	Interesting.  If I've correctly interpreted your description of the
stance, I believe it is usually known in these parts as a "hanging guard"
(presumably because the sword hangs, tip down, from the hand).  Why chicken?
Is the hilt of the sword thought to resemble a chicken's comb?

--Cigfran Caer Gwalch
Rhydderich Hael, AEthelmearc, East		ehrlich@cs.buffalo.edu
From: coppinge8817@iscsvax.uni.edu
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: HELP!!!
Date: 14 Sep 92 16:37:56 GMT
Organization: University of Northern Iowa

Milords and Ladies
        Becoming a new member to the SCA has presented certain difficulties to
me in dealing with the responsibilities of creating a persona.  In my case,
"The Great Difficulty" lies in finding a time period for the Dunkin (this
spelling) family prior to their being thrown out of Ireland some 200 years ago
for their... Mercenarial tendencies.  Any and all help would be greatly
appreciated.
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: sharons@juliet.ll.mit.EDU (Sharon Stanfill)
Subject: List of Kings and Queens
Organization: The Internet
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 17:31:35 GMT



Could some kindly soul send me a list (in order) of
all the kings and queens of the Eastern Kingdom?

Many thanks in advance!
Nesta ferch Meriadoc Hartley
sharons@juliet.ll.mit.edu
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman)
Subject: Re: Paying the Pennsic Autocrat
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 20:25:41 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

Greetings from Arval!

When someone suggests paying the Pennsic autocrat, my immediate reaction is
to ask why the autocrat is working so hard.  

There are people in this forum who have worked closely with the autocrat.
I've been fairly closely involved with running the War itself, though not
with the long-term planning.  I've always wondered why the autocrat's staff
is working so hard.  What are they doing?

This isn't intended as any kind of criticism: I'm honestly baffled.  I
mean, the mayor of a small _city_ doesn't work that hard!!  Admittedly, our
organization problems are not the same as the mayor's, but they surely
aren't as large.  Why are we doing all that work?  What are we doing wrong?

===========================================================================
Arval Benicoeur                                       mittle@watson.ibm.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: daf@wts.com (David A. (Dave) Fox)
Subject: Re: Need Contact in The Outlands (Denver specifically)
Organization: Wegmans Transaction Services
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1992 01:20:53 GMT

Unto the good gentles in the Outlands do I send greetings,

	A good lady friend of mine is moving to the Denver area next week to
attend school and any information of barony meetings, fight practice, people
to contact, etc. etc. would very much be appreciated.

Thanks, 

Ivan ap Myrddin

I apologize if I have posted this twice, been having problems with
the demon in charge of news.

Kingdom of the East
Principality of AEthelmearc
Barony of Thescore

Dave Fox
daf@wts.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: consort gender
Date: Mon, 07 Sep 1992 23:39:06

 -=> Sam Bassett said to All on 09-05-92  17:14 <=- 

 SB> In article <1992Sep5.005704.8573@news.cs.brandeis.edu> 
 SB> tabron@binah.cc.brandeis.edu writes:
 >As a witch I would like you to clarify just why you think the public
 >associates "mass murder" with pentagrams? 

 SB> Charles Manson.

 SB> You may not be old enough to remember "helter skelter" clearly,
 SB> and to have been exposed to the flood of anti-pentacle literature that
 SB> was dumped on the market in the early '70s.  It waas truly amazing,
 SB> the level of paranoia . . . .
 
 >but I have never seen a pentacle get the kind of negative reaction one
 >has to a swastika. 

 SB> Yup. I'll admit _you_ probaably never have seen that kind of
 SB> reaction -- but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.  Ever been in the
 SB> back country in Alabama, Georgia, or Mississippi -- or the deep
 SB> Central Valley of California, for that matter?  Things are _very_
 SB> different there.

I could post REAMS of such material, as it is one of my jobs to keep track
of such things for the local mundane constabulary. Most of it is hate
literature of the worst kind. It certainly DOES exist. 

Get some of the stuff put out by Jack Chick or Texxe Marrs, and you'll get
a taste of it. Quite disgusting indeed.

                                                        -Ioseph of Locksley

... still grumpy after all these years
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10

 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Subject: Re: kingdom finances (was: Pennsic Land Allocation)
Reply-To: whheydt@PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 17:32:00 GMT

In article <mjc.716136061@NL.CS.CMU.EDU> mjc+@cs.cmu.edu (Monica Cellio) writes:
>I gather that most baronies in the East have a 4-figure bank account.  The
>highest I've ever heard is around $6000.  At the other end, of course,
>there are shires that can't afford the deposit for the site without effort.

The Province of the Mists (how old an area do you want?  Diana Paxson
lives in the Province . . .) has about $300, last I heard.

>In my opinion, the larger a kingdom is in population or land mass, the harder 
>it will be for a central administration to effectively manage the finances 
>(or anything else) of the local groups.  In my opinion, most work should be 
>done at the local level, and thus the money that is needed for that work 
>should stay at the local level.  It's more efficient and the process is less
>prone to negligence from above.  (But then, I'm a minarchist.)

The other approach is to note that where there is no money, there is
no temptation.  So far as I know, the West has never had any sort of
fiscal scandal.

	--Hal

        Hal Ravn, Province of the Mists, West Kingdom
        Wilson H. Heydt, Jr.,  Albany, CA 94706,  510/524-8321 (home)
-- 
Hal Heydt                    |    "Boycott Time-Warner"
Analyst, Pacific*Bell        |         --J. Danforth Quayle
510-823-5447                 |    "... kill all the lawyers."
whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM    |         --William Shakespeare
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Subject: Re: History vs. dreams
Reply-To: whheydt@PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 16:05:11 GMT

[I'm going to address a single point in a posting that made a variety
of interesting points.  --whh]

In article <3416@creatures.cs.vt.edu> jtn@nutter.cs.vt.edu (Terry Nutter) writes:
>For another instance: sleeping and loud reveling.  The many, many people
>wandering Pennsic and baying loudly at the moon at 3 and 4 AM probably did
>not think of themselves as deliberately stepping on what other people were
>trying to do; but the fact remained that there were nights when a relatively
>light sleeper was simply screwed.

While I can understand (as well as anyone who has never been there)
that solving this particular problem is a whole class of problem in
it's own right at an event the size of Pennsic, it is--at
least--*treatable* at smaller events.  One just gets a little tired of
the continual work it takes to beat it into submission.

In the West, the problem comes and goes.  The general rule here is
that after midnight, things should get a lot quieter.  Some folks are
good about this and some aren't.  Some *camps* are good about this and
some aren't.  Efforts have been made to designate loud ends and quiet
ends of camps.  This is not all *that* effective--if only because the
dividing line is likely to be noisy even on the (nominally) quiet
side.

We have had some kings who felt pretty strongly about enforcing the
quiet hours rules--and there are few things that will quiet a party
faster than having a neighbor show up with a king at hand who has been
wakened to deal with a late night noisy party after announcing in
court that if all else failed--come get *him* to deal with a noise
problem.  Other kings like to party loudly into the wee hours--though
most are more discrete about it than the wilder camps.

On the whole, the policy sort of works, but it doesn't work well
enough.

	--Hal

        Hal Ravn, Province of the Mists, West Kingdom
        Wilson H. Heydt, Jr.,  Albany, CA 94706,  510/524-8321 (home)
-- 
Hal Heydt                    |    "Boycott Time-Warner"
Analyst, Pacific*Bell        |         --J. Danforth Quayle
510-823-5447                 |    "... kill all the lawyers."
whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM    |         --William Shakespeare
From: Jeff Lee <jlee@smylex.UUCP>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Knight Riders (was Re: Prince of Thieves wrongos)
Date: Mon,  7 Sep 92 23:46:46 EDT
Organization: Shipbrook Software  (Tampa, FL)

Greetings from Godfrey!

Aryk Nusbacher wrote:
> 
> Ever sat with a bunch of middle-aged Scadians and watched _Knight Riders_
> while pointing out who's supposed to represent which personality from
> Pennsic X?

Yes, but nobody seems to know who Stephen and Tabitha King were supposed
to represent...

;-)

+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Net:  Jeff Lee / jlee@smylex.uucp / jlee%smylex.uucp@tscs.tscs.com     |
| SCA:  Lord Godfrey de Shipbrook / Wyvernwood, Trimaris                 |
|       Per pale azure and argent, a clarion counterchanged or and gules |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
      "Of course!  Lager!  The only thing that can kill a vindaloo!"
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: schuldy@progress.COM (Mark Schuldenfrei)
Subject: Re: Pennsic Land Allocation
Organization: Progress Software Corp.
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 13:57:35 GMT

Hal Ravn wrote (in response to a description of a site that
costs $300 dollars):
  Would that we could get sites for kingdom events so dear . . .

I agree.  This site will hold about 100-150 people, I am told.
Many of our other local sites are about the same prices you
described.

Hal also wrote:
  On the other hand, we got a site for our 10-day Beltane last year that
  had a positive cash-flow for $25 per person for the whole ten days.
  (You can see why Westerners look somewhat askance at the site fee at
  Pennsic.  The site we used is also a commercial campground. . . )

You know, there is a good question in there.  What's the breakdown for
price of Pennsic?  What percentage goes to the Coopers/Wilvers, the
Middle, the East?  Who pays for what?  It would be educational to
know.

Hal Ravn also quoted the following, without attribution.  Since he
had quoted both Carolus, and myself in that letter, I thought I
would repost, and clarify that these are my (Tibor's) words.
  I've sometimes wondered what the SCA would be like, if instead
  of sending money to California, you joined whatever local group
  you liked, and they in turn tithed upward to their Principality,
  Kingdom, and the Corporation.  It would let you belong to any group
  you wanted, without dealing with Zip-Codes.  You could even belong
  to no group, and send the money straight to your Kingdom, or some
  other Kingdom.

To which Hal responded:
  It would be different.

Amen, brother, different, at least.  Also chaotic as could be...

	Tibor
--
Mark Schuldenfrei (schuldy@progress.com)
From: branwen@cerebus.ccc.amdahl.com (Karen Williams)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Pentacles
Date: 10 Sep 92 20:41:46 GMT
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA

In article <1992Sep10.164728.28378@news.cs.brandeis.edu> tabron@binah.cc.brandeis.edu ("Sod the proles!") writes:

>And not being able to display a pentacle means that I do _not_ have all the
>rights and priveleges that you list as available to anyone else. I cannot
>decorate my person or possessions with the designs of my choice.

Sure you have all the rights, etc., that everyone else has: we can't 
display pentacles, either. :-) (Sorry. Please forgive my momentary levity.)

I think the point may be that yes, not allowing pentacles to be registered
in SCA armory is an arbitrary decision, but based on a very real reason:
the BOD does not want to any official way be seen to be associated with
satanists, who use the pentacle as a symbol of *their* religion, because
of actual problems groups have had getting sites (among other things) 
because of the believed association. If you don't believe that this is
a threat, ask the people who posted recently about losing their jobs
because their employers or coworkers knew that they were pagans or believed
that they were pagans. And believe me, I do feel bad that pagans and wiccans
are discriminated against, because I am an atheist. However, I know that 
I can't go around indiscriminately announcing that there is no god, because I
will anger and upset lots of people. So I keep it to myself. (Don't any
of you tell anybody, OK? :-) )

Other symbols of paganism *are* allowed, such as antlers and stags. Doesn't
one of the Dukes of the Midrealm have a stag in his device because of his
pagan beliefs? I'd be interested in knowing exactly who turned down the
earlier poster's device saying it was "obviously pagan": was it a local
herald, the kingdom herald, Laurel? Was that the offical in-writing reason,
or something a friend told you? Did you appeal? 

I recently realized just exactly how much symbols can anger and upset
people. I was in the local hardware store, where the nuts and bolts are
arranged by the shape of the top of the bolt (I think). There are pictures
displayed of the shape of the bolt, so you can find things easily. One
of the shapes looked like a six-sided star (a Star of David), and someone
had vandalized the picture. And this is in the Bay Area, bastion of 
tolerance.

Branwen ferch Emrys
The Mists, the West


--
                                          Karen Williams
                                          branwen@cerebus.ras.amdahl.com
"Don't whine. Warrior women speak in a husky whisper."
  -- Brat Pack #3
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: ewright@convex.com (Edward V. Wright)
Subject: Re: Same-sex consorts, homophobia, fun mavins, etc.
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 15:52:37 GMT
Organization: Engineering, CONVEX Computer Corp., Richardson, Tx., USA
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

Branwen ferch Emrys (Karen Williams) writes:

>>Think, for a moment how those not of your persuasion feel when they
>>look at thrones under the current system.

>If they're men, they have a man (or woman) to identify with. If
>they're women, they have a woman (or man) to identify with. What about
>gay men in a reign of two women? 

I believe what he meant was that homosexuals can only identify
with other homosexuals of the same sex.  Perhaps it's the influence
of Freudian psychology, but there are many people today who
seem to believe that sex is the determining factor for the
way we view *everything* in life.  Thus, you can't identify
with a person in any way unless you can indentify with him
sexually.  I disagree.  I believe its possible for a heterosexual
computer scientist or mathematician, for example, to identify 
with Alan Turing, who was gay -- in fact, I've known many who do.
And I'm sure it's also possible the other way around.

-- Nicholas van Leyden
From: Tim@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Tim)
Sender: FredGate@ocitor.fidonet
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Wicca and the SCA
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1992 09:49:36

 D> Huzzah! Well said, Peter. I must vociferously agree with all of the
 D> above. My original design for my arms, I will not bore you with the
 D> blazon (if I could even remember it), centered around a rack of stags
 D> horns and a 'plate', or full moon. It was refused for being to
 D> blatantly 'Pagan'. I do not think I need make any more comment than
 D> that.

 Sure you do - assuming that you are Ansteorran, as I feel I comfortably
 can (judging from your address), you need to tell me who "refused" it, so
 I can explain to them How Things Are Supposed To Work.

 First, look up the registered arms of Duke Sir Talymar gan y Llwyn and
 Duchess Eislinn the Patient, for some examples of how to register armory
 using "pagan" symbolism.

 Next, resubmit; and, if necessary, appeal. Tell 'em Tadhg sent you....

    Tadhg, Obelisk Herald, Hanaper Herald Extraordinary, and most recent
    former Star Principal Herald

 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
From: cc697@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Eric Oppen)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Wicca and the SCA
Date: 13 Sep 1992 09:42:32 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: cc697@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Eric Oppen)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt) says:


>
>There is no official early cut-off date.  A commonly supposed period
>is 600 to 1600, but you will run into the occasional pre-Christian-Era
>Greek or Roman.

Since the last Greek pagans weren't converted till the 800s AD, in the
Maina Peninsula, it would be perfectly permissible to have a Greek Pagan
persona and still be in period.  As for Romans, I would imagine that there
were pockets of old-fashioned Romans in what was the Roman Empire (i.e. the
Latin-speaking western provinces) until at least the 700s.  Unfortunately,
though, this is not too well-documented---does anybody know much about
Byzantine North Africa, just to name one possibility?

-- 
Note to the Constitutionally impaired:  "...the RIGHT of the people to KEEP
and BEAR arms..." means EXACTLY what it says!
Vote Libertarian, Grassroots, or any third party...the Demopublicans are a
bipartisan evil!        "Technomad"  cc697@cleveland.freenet.edu
From: Dave.Aronson@f120.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Dave Aronson)
Sender: Uucp@blkcat.UUCP