HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: toman@bovine.uoregon.edu (J. Toman)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Judo Esoterica
Date: 18 Dec 92 01:10:53 GMT
Article-I.D.: pith.1gr8etINN8i7
Organization: University of Oregon Network Services
NNTP-Posting-Host: bovine.uoregon.edu

In article <1992Dec16.112755.5720@ms.uky.edu> taddiken@ms.uky.edu (scott taddiken) writes:

[...]
>
>Geoff Gleeson, sometime coach of the British national team, visited the
>archives of the Kodokan as a special student, and has verified to his
>satisfaction that this is not the way the throw was done by Kano or his
>early students, in performance of the kata.  Rather, they remained
>standing through the entire movement, and there was one other crucial
>subtlety: As the throwee pushed strongly, stepping with his right foot,
>the thrower took a quick step forward with _his_ right foot, toward
>throwee's left side.  Then he stepped back and around with his left foot,
>turning hard with the hands, and throwing.  Invading his space at an off
>angle in this way generates "whip".  Try it and see if you can't throw
>opponents with this, provided that they are actually pushing, and
>especially if they are at your weight or below.

This sounds like the standard aikido randori throw. 


[...]
>  In the throws where throwee is supposed to
>do that silly overhead strike, instead have him take one grip and make
>a huge grab at an over-the-back grip with the other hand.

I never liked that strike until I read a book on aikido by Saotome sensei.
In it, he points out that what you are doing is mimicking a shomen strike
with a sword. The difference is that an empty hand shomen strike isn't
particularly dangerous, your forehead is pretty hard, so you can practice
your sword defenses in relative safety. Try doing those throws with a bokken
in hand, and see if they make more sense.

						J. Toman
From: jo.lavoy%theweb@meaddata.com (Jo Lavoy) 
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: QUICK QUESTION
Date: 6 Dec 92 17:41:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: The Web BBS 1-513-436-9011 6 Lines 1200 News groups 50,000 files!
Reply-To: jo.lavoy%theweb@meaddata.com (Jo Lavoy) 

Not enough to know which areas to hit.  The attacker isn't going to
stand there and allow you to hit him.  SHe needs to learn to move and
deal with the unexpected.
   RIght, a gun is pretty drastic.  If you shoot someone in your house,
you'd better be able to convince a jury you felt your life was at stake.
                                                                           
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: schan@birch.srg.af.mil (Stephen Chan x4485)
Subject: Re: The Harmony Factor
Organization: SRG, Arinc Research Corp., Annapolis, MD
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 92 18:09:22 GMT
Keywords: harmony, sparring, attack

In article <1992Dec14.184546.23988@athena.mit.edu> ras@athena.mit.edu (Richard A Shandross) writes:
>What I want to know is how to have a Tai Chi fight that is realistic without
>doing damage to one or both of the participants.  How do they fight without
>putting each other's eyes out or pushing a nose into the brain or cracking a
>rib.  I mean, I know from experience the power in a strike made with mind, body
>and spirit coordinated, and everything I've learned stresses striking on the
>centerline (except the knees, maybe).  Maybe your comment below is the answer,
>but what about those cases where people are challenged by practitioners from
>other arts?   

	The same way that folks in other styles do it - you sacrifice some
realism for safety and convenience. You find a partner that you *trust* and you
exercise emotional and physical control.

>I thought san shou was a two person form, not a free style thing.  Or is that
>the first part of ss and then you move on to freestyle, like with push hands?

	Perhaps you are right - I may have confused them. The school where I
study doesn't teach them, but that's okay - I have quite a bit to learn before
I have to find a new teacher.

>Never learned san shou in my 9 years of lessons.  Makes me wonder if my teacher
>had ever practiced it.

	Perhaps not - most of the people who teach Taiji seem to have a very
restricted curriculum.
--
	Stephen Chan
	uunet!srg!schan or uunet!srg!schan@uunet.uu.net
From: tms@cs.umd.edu (Tom Swiss (not Swift, not Suiss, Swiss!))
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Drugs & Fighting (was Finishing techniques)
Date: 18 Dec 92 20:47:32 GMT
Organization: The Reality Liberation Front (pixels to the people!)

kevin@pages.com (Kevin Sven Berg) writes:
>In article <e3TsVB1w165w@bluemoon.use.com> lchurch2@bluemoon.use.com (Leonard  
>Church) writes:
>
>This reminds me that there are and have been many cultures that have
>mixed drugs and fighting application... 
>
>Recently we hear of a narcotic being used in Samalian gunmen.

     Misinformation about this is spreading rampantly. The drug is khat.
It's a stimulant, not a narcotic. Any newspaper editor that let pass
a story calling it a narcotic should be drawn and quartered.

     Khat is a mild stimulant, somewhat stronger than coffee. Its seizure
by US military personel is a gross violation of the rights of the Somali
people. Our domestic War on Some Drugs is bad enough, but to export it
to other nations is intolerable.

===============================================================================
Tom Swiss/tms@cs.umd.edu  |  "Born to die"   |   Keep your laws off my brain!
     "What's so funny 'bout peace, love and understanding?" - Nick Lowe 
                     Keep your values off my family.
   "All I kin say is when you finds yo'self wanderin' in a peach orchard,
    ya don't go lookin' for rutabagas." -- Kingfish
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: radner@cray.com (Lauren Radner)
Subject: Re: Finishing techniques
Organization: Cray Research, Inc.
Date: 14 Dec 92 11:19:17 CST

>
>In article <1992Dec10.210038.29499@reed.edu> todd@reed.edu (Todd Ellner) writes:
>
>   What techniques would you use if you _really_ had to stop someone?
>   If the proverbial 7'-300lb-PCP using-steroid monkey-whose spent half
>   his life in Folsom prison-and wants to rip your lungs out was in the
>   alley with you and you could set up one or two shots what would they
>   be? No guns or knives allowed.
>

....Can I use my sword ????

-Lauren

From: rterry@hpcupt1.cup.hp.com (Ray Terry)
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 19:08:00 GMT
Subject: Re: WTF + ITF = ???
Organization: Hewlett Packard, Cupertino
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts

> What is the difference between WTF TKD and ITF TKD?

To the best of my knowledge the basics are the same or very similar, i.e.
they both perform the same kicks, punches, blocks, etc. in a similar
fashion.  Much of the terminology used is similar, but there were changes
made in the mid-70s so that the WTF now uses some differnet terminology for
stances, etc.

They use a different set of forms and the WTF pushes the sport aspects of
the art -much- more that does the ITF.  But I think if you were to view
both an ITF dojang (school) and a WTF dojang you'd think they were pretty
much the same.

All IMHO of course...

Ray
From: wrat@unisql.UUCP (wharfie)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Time to achieve rank
Date: 15 Dec 92 15:34:30 GMT
Organization: UniSQL, Inc., Austin, Texas, USA

In article <mckellar.724372075@stonyplain> mckellar@cs.UAlberta.CA (Neil McKellar) writes:
>This is a "Good Thing" for the beginner who survives the first few skids.
>This is a "Bad Thing" for the beginner who gets injured or seriously scared
>by his first few skids and decides that, not only is he unable to handle

	Yes, that is a problem.  (Interestingly enough, I've seen it
much more in judo which is by nature rougher...)  

	I think it's up to the instructor to prevent this from 
happening.  We have a new crop of beginners in our judo club, and last
night the person teaching the class decided to work on seoi-nage ("shoulder
throw").  Ouch, ouch.  It's easy to show someone how to do one, but
hard to get them to understand how to do one gently...  Because some
beginners ended up with other beginners there were a few painful expressions
on some faces.  I'm concerned that some of these won't be back. :-(

	On the other hand, the ones who stick it out won't be afraid
to take a fall... :-)
								W.rat
From: uhdgo@Msu.oscs.montana.edu
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: history
Date: 20 Dec 92 21:25:48 GMT
Reply-To: uhdgo@Msu.oscs.montana.edu
Organization: Montana State University

After reading article #27220 regarding hapikido and it's roots in aikido I
wondering if anyone can illuminate me on the common roots of these forms or
arts.  I was told through the grapevine that the founder of hapkido studied
aikido under aikido's founder, Ueshiba.  Does anyone know the facts and perhaps 
even have documentation?

Olson and Stenzel
From: zx2j@vax5.cit.cornell.edu
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Ki and science
Date: 15 Dec 92 01:45:12 EST
Distribution: rec
Organization: Cornell University

In article <1992Dec14.093652.3157@siemens.co.at>,
ek@patty.gud.siemens.co.at (Ernst Krudl) writes: 
> I have come across an article where Qigong MAsters had their external
> Qi investigated by scientific methods. This was done in CHina, I believe.
> One Qigong Master was found to radiate fine particles, the other ultrared
> (not infrared, the other side of red) radiation. The article did not give
> details on the equipment used. 

The ultrared is orange.  So this fellow was glowing like a low wattage 
lightbulb, or was it just his tanning salon tan? :-)

Mike Rilee
From: mary@Cayman.COM (Mary Malmros)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: QUOTING
Date: 18 Dec 92 16:34:19 GMT
Organization: Cayman Systems Inc., Cambridge, MA
In-reply-to: jo.lavoy%theweb@meaddata.com's message of 14 Dec 92 06:45:00 GMT


In article <6631.897.uupcb@meaddata.com> jo.lavoy%theweb@meaddata.com (Jo Lavoy) writes:

   Does anyone here besides me just HATE to read a message where the quoted
   text is longer than the reply?  Sometimes the quotes scroll off of my
   screen twice before I find the 3-line reply.  Sometimes there are so
   many quotes within quotes I can no longer figure out which IS the reply.

   People! We are fairly intelligent, I hope.  Surely we can edit our
   quoting to something reasonable?  It's difficult enough to read all
   that's new here without having to REREAD the same message every time
   someone replies to it!

Editing is a good thing; however, continuing a thread without attributions
is confusing and distracting.  I just saw a post of yours that I figured
out, after a while, was in response to another post that I saw at least
two weeks ago.  That would be okay, except that you included no part 
of the post that you were responding to.  Your post, therefore, came 
across as a complete non sequitur.

A decent newsreader/editor will provide you with an easy facility for 
quote-indentation and so on.  If it doesn't, you should type the li'l
suckers in yourself, and then snip whatever you can snip without 
destroying context or losing attributions.  Summarizing also works,
as in:

	[description of Thai shin kick deleted]

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Mary Malmros     | Cayman Systems Inc, 26 Landsdowne St, Cambridge, MA 02139
 mary@cayman.com  | Phone 617-494-1999  Fax 617-494-5167  AppleLink CAYMAN.TECH

Xref: sparky rec.martial-arts:15965 soc.culture.pakistan:18438
From: silatman@hls.com
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts,soc.culture.pakistan
Subject: The Old Man Had Timing
Date: 18 Dec 92 18:45:05 GMT



               THE OLD MAN HAD TIMING!
               by Khalid Khan.

   Some people in today's society think that all talk about
God and prayer should be kept for a time different than
the times alloted for other things of this worldly life.
I will address the issue of prayer to God, no matter what
your religion [Judaism, Christianity or Islam], as we
practice our favorite styles of Martial Arts or any
other sports.

   Note that I am not saying "secular meditation" or
"deep breathing while focussing on the Korean flag"
or anything else that falls into the realm of Uncertainty.
I am specifically saying PRAYER TO GOD, the Creator of all
that is manifest and all that is hidden, the originator
of all knowledges.

   From the limited willpower that we humans have we
can learn a facet of the martial arts, and in our opinion
master it. Yet, the more you learn this field, the more
you practice for certain situations, it is never complete.
There are always situations arising for which you
have to redesign or learn anew, etc.

   And also, it is all mechanical. We try to improve our
psychological reality thru external mechanical movements.
The psychological state, which is dependent on our
spiritual state, is within the folds of our soul. 
In a real contest that is not a sport, it is contest
of two psychological makeups. Add to that the matter
of destiny.

   From our willpower we may improve the power of
our technique, and the speed of our technique. Yet, both
these attributes are worth nil if we do not have
the timing of our technique right. We have all heard
of stories where a brash young "master" comes out
to challenge a 90 year old practitioner. The 90 year old
man sits calmly drinking his sake tea and admiring
the beautiful morning. The brash young man charges
the 90 year old master with all the power and speed
of his youth, and a split second later...the young man
is dead. The 90 year old master has moved only slightly,
not even fast, and in one simple move has cut 
the young challenger with his sword, and then the old master
resumes drinking his morning tea. So what is the important
point here?

   Timing!

   The old man had timing. 

   For power and speed you can work at it yourself.
But for Timing you need Seeing. This is not just
physical Seeing from the eyeballs, but a kind of 
Spiritual Seeing, which is infinitely faster.

   For this second kind of Seeing, you need
the Grace of God. You need to pray to Him, because
without that Seeing all your technique,
all your power, all your speed adds to nothing.

               Salam Alaikum!

                              Khalid Khan

   
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: wut@acf3.NYU.EDU (Tom Wu)
Subject: Re: Bullet catching?
Organization: New York University
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 03:30:00 GMT



	A year of sandbag biting and a kevlar retainer should
do the trick :-)

	Good luck! And try to document your first real life
experience. I think a lot of people here will be interested
in waching it.



					---Tom


Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: ras@athena.mit.edu (Richard A Shandross)
Subject: Re: The Harmony Factor
Keywords: harmony, sparring, attack
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 18:45:46 GMT

In article <1992Dec14.143037.23615@srg.srg.af.mil> schan@birch.srg.af.mil (Stephen Chan x4485) writes:
>
>	I suggest that this is due to the character of the Taiji and
>Aikido subcultures here in the USA. In Asia, Taiji people *do* fight. There is
>a common story about Yang Lu Ch'an castigating his son for allowing an
>opponent to tear his sleeve in a challenge match. I'm not sure, but I think
>that Tomiki Aikido is the most popular form of Aikido in Japan.

I think you are right, now that I think about it.  I remember reading somewhere
about one of the old timers who said that in his youth he sought to have at 
least one fight per day.  And Cheng Man Ching never turned down a challenge.

What I want to know is how to have a Tai Chi fight that is realistic without
doing damage to one or both of the participants.  How do they fight without
putting each other's eyes out or pushing a nose into the brain or cracking a
rib.  I mean, I know from experience the power in a strike made with mind, body
and spirit coordinated, and everything I've learned stresses striking on the
centerline (except the knees, maybe).  Maybe your comment below is the answer,
but what about those cases where people are challenged by practitioners from
other arts?   


>	San Shou is the term used for Taiji free sparring. It is pretty far
>downstream in many Taiji curriculums. But I understand that William Chen likes
>his students to put on the gloves and do the Rock'em Sock'em Robots thing
>fairly early.
>--
>	Stephen Chan
>	uunet!srg!schan or uunet!srg!schan@uunet.uu.net


I thought san shou was a two person form, not a free style thing.  Or is that
the first part of ss and then you move on to freestyle, like with push hands?

Never learned san shou in my 9 years of lessons.  Makes me wonder if my teacher
had ever practiced it.  One of these days if I ever get through grad school,
I'll take it up.  (Along with weapons and maybe another style besides Yang.)

Rich
Organization: Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1992 12:10:51 -0500 
From: Stephen Chan <sc1u+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Agreed: rec.martial-arts hierarchy


    Sheeesh...this "break up rec.martial-arts" thing won't die, will it?

    I'll throw in my 2 cents:

    I am constantly shocked by the insularity, petty stylistic
prejudices and outright LIES that people in the martial arts community
believe.
    Compartmentalizing MA discussions only perpetuates this kind of
stuff. While some folks may find it more convenient to have everything
handed to them, I think that we're all better off for having an open
forum where people in style X get to throw in their input on what folks
from style Y are saying.
    I'd rather do a little more work, than put on blinders.

    If you folks are really hung-up on this, then an alternative might
be to have rec.martial-arts.misc(1,2,3) for moving temporary discussions
onto, but which do not permanently break up the newsgroup.

    Stephen Chan
From: garry@alice.att.com (garry hodgson)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Sternum strike vs. Solar plexus
Summary: minor correction
Date: 15 Dec 92 15:36:23 GMT
Article-I.D.: alice.24412
Reply-To: garry@alice.UUCP ()
Distribution: rec
Organization: AT&T, Bell Labs

Dakin Burdick writes:

  Remember that Houdini used to take punches to the stomach
  to demonstrate how strong he was.  He died after someone hit him
  in the solar plexus.

My memory may be hazy, but I believe this is incorrect.  As I recall,
he was ill (appendicitus), and hit when not ready.  He died of
a ruptured appendix.

-- 
Garry Hodgson			A slow winter day
AT&T Bell Labs			A night like forever
garry@alice.att.com		Sink like a stone
att!alice!garry			Float like a feather
From: cyeomans@ms.uky.edu (Charles Yeomans)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: The Harmony Factor
Keywords: harmony, sparring, attack
Date: 11 Dec 92 18:54:11 GMT
Article-I.D.: ms.1992Dec11.135411.29947
    <1992Dec11.071916.27726@netcom.com> <1992Dec11.124739.12639@athena.mit.edu>
Organization: University Of Kentucky, Dept. of Math Sciences

In article <1992Dec11.124739.12639@athena.mit.edu> ras@athena.mit.edu (Richard A Shandross) writes:
>
[stuff omitted]
>Secondly, *if* you accept the premise, what implications does that have for
>sparring - - - does it then imply that the practice of two people going after
>each other is an exercise in futility because neither is paying attention to
>the question of how to maintain "harmony with the universe" and instead are
>frequently breaking it in order to "win."  
>
>This explains why neither Aikido nor Tai Chi normally include sparring in the
>usual sense.  (Any A. or T.C. players out there who *do* spar per se, and find
>what value in it?)  The martial exercises usually involve one or the other 
>partner "playing" aggressor, or are sensitivity exercises such as Push Hands
>designed to teach one how to maintain that harmony in the presence of another
>person with each seeking out the other's loss of harmony (loss of strong
>structure, concentration, mental/emotional/spiritual wavering, etc).
>
The aikido class I attend does do some limited sparring.  The instructor
keeps a close eye on it and we usually do it with a specific goal in 
mind.  It is a lot different trying to feel when to do, say, shiho-nage
on someone who is moving around and generally trying not to be a good uke.
But we don't do much of it, so that we don't forget that the idea is to train
in aikido, not to "win".  I find that the sparring shows me how 
weak my techniques are, so I know what to work on next.  

It seems easy to get too caught up in external aspects of internal arts - 
i.e. flowing or looking pretty.  When I was taking classes from Sin The',
one of his instructors told me just that.  In fact, we were working 
on a form (Tai Peng Sin Kun) which contains several flowing high
blocks done while kneeling.  This guy said that he was practicing this
form and making it look nice when in walked (the infamous) Bill Leonard, 
one of Master SIn's senior students.  He politely asked my instructor
to do the form again and, when he got to the flowing blocks part
Leonard proceeded to knock him half-senseless by hitting him in the forehead
through the blocks - his way of expressing the idea that form follows function.

Anyway, it seems to me that, no matter what the art (Welsh arts excepted)
a certain amount of quasi-realistic practice is necessary.  Or perhaps
it's just me who needs the reinforcement from time to time.

Charles Yeomans
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: wrat@unisql.UUCP (wharfie)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: martial arts info
Date: 11 Dec 92 22:05:58 GMT
Organization: UniSQL, Inc., Austin, Texas, USA

In article <1992Dec10.163217.2910@walter.cray.com> radner@cray.com (Lauren Radner) writes:
>For example, anyone reading your original post would believe that Judo 
>is the only martial art in which a female would 1)learn to fall, 2) make 
>quick progress, 3a) get to practice full speed techniques 3b) practice 
>against males, 4) realistically appraise themselves via tournaments, and 
>5) learn chokes, armbars, and leg attacks .

	Actually, that's not quite what I said.  You need to change
#3 to "full power grappling techniques against people whose physical
builds approximate those of someone likely to attack her."  And add
#6: Judo is excellent physical conditioning, both in the sense that it's
a good aerobic/anaerobic workout, and in the sense that you get used
to having the wind knocked out of you and fighting when you're being
partially choked.

	And, yes, I believe that "these desirable things are taught
nowhere else but" in Judo.  Wrestling styles lack strangles and rely a
lot on upper body strength. Aikido isn't always as physically
challenging, the techniques are difficult to master, and beginners
don't learn how to fall but rather how to roll which is quite a
different thing.  Jujitsu is not practiced at full power at the lower
levels and tournaments are rare in this country, as are instructors.
Chin na resembles jujitsu (even if she could find a teacher).

	Judo is an excellent choice as a first martial art for our
original questioner because of this unique combination of advantages,
because excellent judo schools are common, because the skills learned
are applicable in everyday life, and because (despite the it's-a-sport
crowd) I know that it works well in self defense situations.
From: frederic@cybernet.cse.fau.edu (Frederic Woodbridge)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: ki and science
Summary: You'll need a thousand years!
Date: 19 Dec 92 22:27:52 GMT
Reply-To: Mike Rilee
Organization: Cybernet BBS, Boca Raton, Florida


> I am sure that if a better, more effective theory of martial arts were to
> come along, then the Ki paradigm would eventually fall into disuse.  In
> the meantime, I don't know a better way to teach certain aspects of MA,
> than in terms of Ki. 
> Mike Rilee 

Yo Mike, I'll leave it up to you to come up with "a better, more effective
theory of martial arts". I don't know how in on Earth anyone would think
there was a "more effective" way. I do suggest though, that in your
your quest for a "more effective" way, you ask whatever you believe in to
grant you a thousand or so years because that's approximately how long it
took to discover and develop Ki.
Yours sincerely, 
Frederic W., III.
Florida Atlantic Unversity.
 
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts