HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: alan@elroy.Jpl.Nasa.Gov (Alan S. Mazer)
Subject: Re: First Aid Liability
Organization: Image Analysis Systems Group, JPL
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 00:08:34 GMT

In article <95183@rphroy.ph.gmr.com> rhaar@albert.cs.gmr.com writes:
>This does not protect you from being sued, just from financial
>liability that might result from a suit. You may have to
>hire and pay for a lawyer to defend you. 
>
>Note that I am not a lawyer and that this should not be considered
>legal advice - just a point of information. (isn't it sick that
>we have to say such things.) If you are really concerned, you
>should discuss it with your lawyer. And you might want to 
>investigate special insurance coverage.

As some people may remember, I went through similar misgivings a few months
ago (about leading/coordinating group trips).  What I learned is

	1) Lawyers are expensive ($185 an hour in my case) and they won't
	   commit to much of anything :-^.
	2) It's pretty much impossible to get insurance for a reasonable
	   sum of money.  It seems to start in the $1000's and most of the
	   people I talked to about this kind of stuff were really nervous.
	   Evidently litigation is wide open and everyone is afraid of
	   getting sued.
	3) Your homeowner's policy covers you for various kinds of liability.
	   My conclusion in the end was that my homeowners' would probably
	   cover me.  I came to this conclusion after talking to companies
	   offering professional outfitter insurance and reading my policy.
	   My own insurance carrier would not confirm this.

In short, sure, you can talk to a lawyer and look for insurance and everything
else.  And you probably should.  But I wouldn't expect much.
-- 
 
-- Alan                        # Mountain Dew and doughnuts...
   ..!ames!elroy!alan          # because breakfast is the most important meal
   alan@elroy.jpl.nasa.gov     # of the day.
Xref: sparky rec.backcountry:9892 rec.photo:22654
From: ivo@pyramid.unr.edu (Ian (Ivo) Veach)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry,rec.photo
Subject: Suggestions of areas to visit around Mono Lake??
Date: 28 Dec 92 22:29:53 GMT
Followup-To: rec.backcountry
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Nevada, Reno  Department of Computer Science


	Hi there!  If I wasn't holding down 2 jobs, I might be able to
spend more time around Mono Lake just exploring, but I seem to be strapped
for time and I can only spend a weekend there.  So I was wondering if anyone
had suggestions of interesting areas (more specifically, for some scenic or
nature photography) to highlight a visit to Mono Lake with?  I heard
something about a ghost town, Bodie, down by Bishop - but can't find any
specifics...Anyway, all ideas/input/etc would be appreciated, especially
where interesting photo situations are concerned!!

Our newsreader is not very dependable, so direct mail please!


Ivo                 :: "If Cyrano De Bergerac Fell prey to the blades of fifty
ivo@pyramid.unr.edu ::  men, With a heart and a sword he'd drive them back
                    ::  Perchance to see Roxanne's eyes light up the sky again"
PRWCCALGMlT and SWM ::		- Blues Traveler (Sweet Pain)
From: jamiller@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Looking for best prices on tents, bags, stoves, etc.
Date: 28 Dec 92 00:15:10 CST
Organization: University of Kansas Academic Computing Services

I hope this is the right place to post, but here goes...

My wife and I are getting ready to buy the following equipment.  I'm
wondering if anyone would mind giving me some suggestions on the
cheapest mailorder places given what conditions we expect the
equipment for.  I've already got Campmor catalogs so otherplaces would
be appreciated.  BTW, is there a rec.backpacking or other group?

Tent:

I've been looking at the Eureka Timberline Deluxes (the silver and blue one
with doors in both front and back).  I used the Timberline exclusively
in scouts and had good luck with it on several exhibitions.  Anyone
particularly pleased or disappointed with it or have an idea of a
better tent in an equivelnet price range.

Raingear:

We've looked at patagonia, columbia, mont blue (Is that right the
designer was Izumo or Naoka or something like that.  My wife's Japanese
and that's why it had caught her eye first), etc.  We're looking for a
stormproof breathable Gore-Texy Jacket and pants (maybe gainers) that
will last but are cheap.  What's that my cake and eat it too?  Well
we don't have alot of money to spend, so we may wait till next year on
our way to Japan and stop off in San Fransisco at Walrus' or Siera
Designs outlets.  Anyway if it's roomy, durable and cheap let's hear
it.

Sleeping Bag:

Any reputable outlets that do mail-order or have catalogs?

Stoves:

I'm pretty much set on a Whisperlite but I saw a stove the other day
that looked similiar but was no heavier and burned like six fuels.  I
think it was like a AMT or AST or something.  I want a stove that has
the fuel attached remotely not under the burner.  I've always used
sveas but am sick of stoves falling over and not lighting after
pumping for hours.  I've heard good things about whisperlites but if
you use one that has a remote fuel source let me know what you think
about it.

If you've used specific styles include that in discussing the product
if you can.
--
jamiller@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu
James Miller

_chicchai .sig no ho ga ichiban iin janai ka..._
             Enlightenment Happens?
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: jensen@peruvian.cs.utah.edu (travis jensen)
Subject: Re: travels on the backways
Organization: University of Utah CS Dept
Distribution: World 
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 92 05:27:50 GMT

As someone who loves to adventure into the wilderness, I have
no problem (and I do not believe anybody should have problems)
with people driving in on EXISTING roadways.  I can fully
understand that some people do not or cannot hike in.  The problem
that I have is with people who take their MANLY four-wheel
drive and tear through the wilderness without regard for
others using it.

Happy hiking




Travis A. Jensen             "Who needs a life if you have 
Brain Dead Student            lots of money?  Who needs money 
Overworked Employee           if you have no life?" 
Ugggghhhh                     --T. Jensen (relating his life)
From: dbernard@clesun.Central.Sun.COM (Dave Bernard)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: HOLLOW POINTS in the backcountry
Date: 21 Dec 92 21:22:40 GMT
Reply-To: dbernard@clesun.Central.Sun.COM
Organization: Sun Microsystems
NNTP-Posting-Host: clesun.central.sun.com



>I've always thought hunters themselves would be the best type of
>animal to hunt.  What could be more exhilerating knowing that
>the animal you are hunting may shoot back!  Some park or island
>should be setup somewhere hunters could legally hunt each other
>(wasn't there a short story similar to this? "The Most Dangerous Game"
>or something like that).

Actually, someone has been doing this in Eastern Ohio for the last few years.
An assassin is murdering loan hunters in the backwoods, by sniping from cover.
The innocent hunters end up dead, and their families end up without them.
Not all that exhilirating.
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: bbarkey@lark.utah.edu (Brian Barkey)
Subject: Re: Slot canyon hiking
Organization: University of Utah
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 92 15:41:43 GMT

In article <3020027@hplvec.LVLD.HP.COM> frank@hplvec.LVLD.HP.COM (Frank Cada (Contractor)) writes:
>Some brief advice:
>
>1. don't go in the summer unless you enjoy very hot sunny days.
>
>2. find a book written by Kelsey that describes canyons and indian
>   ruins in S Utah.
>
	I must insert a warning here. Kelsey's books are quite good
	in that they describe the trailheads,springs and locations of ruins 
	quite well, but read very carefully betwwen the lines.
	Kelsey is a self-professed super human. There are many 
	passages in his books that go " the author did this
	hike in 2 hrs, but the average hiker will need at least 8".
	If he says something to the effect of " the author saw a way
	down here, but did not follow this route" , that means you'd
	best bring a climbing harness and rope.
	I followed one of his descriptions up a canyon near muddy
	creek which he described as a "walk up" and found a 50' cliff
	which required some pretty hairy scrambling to get up. Later, 
	my hiking companions found kelsey's clue, He wrote " horses
	can't get up this canyon".
 
>3. get a good pair of hiking boots that stick to sandstone, most do.
>
>4. look into Capitol Reef National Park and Needles district of Canyonlands
>   National Park.
>
>5. Look into the Grand Gulch area near National Bridges National Monument.
>   Go to the Kane Ranger Station to ask advice.  There are many Anazazi
>   indian ruin here.  Look but don't remove any artifacts.
>
>6. Check into Bell and Wildhorse canyons for good slot canyons, see Kelsey.
>
	These are wonderful hikes, you must do these.
j
>7. Always take plenty of water, sunscreen, maps,  and raingear when you hike. 
>
>8. learn about the danger of flash floods.
>
>
>Enjoy and leave no trace of your visit.

	Yes, do go out and enjoy these canyons. I'm addicted!

		Brian Barkey
From: jamiller@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Nice low-traffic hike in Central Colorado, San Isabel range.
Date: 28 Dec 92 00:27:30 CST
Organization: University of Kansas Academic Computing Services

If anyone is looking for nice sites for spring in Colorado, look into
to the San Isabel range in central Colorado.  There's a small town
called Westcliffe on the east side of the range that has supplies if
you ever get desperate but other than that it's free of tourists and a
really nice hike with about 5 peaks all over 12,xxx ft.  There's
plenty of small lakes and rivers and some nice places to climb,
although I didn't see anyone climbing nor did I.

Has anyone else been there?  I really like the area and have been
there twice.
-- 
jamiller@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu
James Miller

_chicchai .sig no ho ga ichiban iin janai ka..._
             Enlightenment Happens?
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: rkohli@aardvark.ucs.uoknor.edu (Ordering of infromation inhibits paralellism!)
Subject: Bandelier Natl Park (New Mexico)
Originator: usenet@midway.ecn.uoknor.edu
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 20:57:00 GMT
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: University of Oklahoma - University Computing Services

Greetings all,
     We were planning to to Bandelier NP around the 1st and needed information 
about road conditions around Bandelier and what to expect. Also any suggestions
, reccomendations are welcome.

cheers
:-) ranjan 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    "I always wanted to be somebody, but I should have been more specific"
                               Ranjan Kohli.
                     Systems Manager, School of Mathematics
                          University Of Oklahoma.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: jamiller@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Nice low-traffic hike in Central Colorado, San Isabel range.dir
Date: 31 Dec 92 20:40:55 CST
Organization: University of Kansas Academic Computing Services

In article <1hu71nINNijf@hp-col.col.hp.com>, jerryk@col.hp.com (Jerry Kinsley) writes:
> San Isabel National orest is in the Wet Mtns, East of Westcliff, The range west of Westcliffe is the Sangre de Christo.
> 

See another reason to have maps digitized.  I could have checked...
-- 
jamiller@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu
James Miller

_chicchai .sig no ho ga ichiban iin janai ka..._
             Enlightenment Happens?
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: craigc@hotcity.COM (Craig Cutright)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: North Face Ibex
Date: 22 Dec 92 19:05:23 PST
Organization: BBS

FOR SALE:
North Face Ibex
-15 deg. Down Sleeping Bag
Long (6'6")
Used on one trip, just cleaned.
$200 OBO
 
E-Mail if interested!
 
Craig A. Cutright
CraigC@Hotcity.com
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: myersdr@epcinext3.cern.ch (David Myers)
Subject: Re: Lyme Disease E-mail Network...
Organization: CERN European Lab for Particle Physics
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 08:01:16 GMT

Thanks to Marc Gabriel for info on symptoms and risk periods. Does anyone know  
from where in Europe cases of the disease have been reported? (Or, to be more  
specific, should I give up climbing in the Haut Savoie wearing shorts!)

David M.
From: Carl.Seiler@f10.n106.z1.fidonet.org (Carl Seiler)
Sender: Jpunix@urchin.fidonet.org
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Invitation from Rockport
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 23:46:42 -0500

In a msg on <Dec 21 17:59>, Cary Czichon writes:

 CC> Everyone reacts to large changes in altitude differently.  
 CC> Developing great cardiovascular strength doesn't guarantee 
 CC> immunity to AMS.  By going from Kilimanjaro's base to its 
 CC> summit in one day and staying there through the night, most 
 CC> people would develop severe AMS or worse.  An interesting 
 CC> book on altitude sickness is GOING HIGHER by Charles S. 
 CC> Houston, M.D.  Lots of interesting stories.

Charles S. Houston also has an article in the October 1992 issue of
Scientific American.  It's not too long and gives lots of nifty facts
and tips on high altitude hiking/climbing.

Carl
ST1T0@jetson.uh.edu
...or
From: bdw+@cs.cmu.edu (Blake Ward)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Anyone with a fused ankle?
Date: 2 Jan 93 06:14:25 GMT
Article-I.D.: cs.C07qo2.A42.1
Distribution: usa
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon

I have a fused ankle (the result of shattering my talus bone in a climbing
fall) and I'm looking for other climbers, backpackers, or outdoor enthusiasts
who have a similar injury.  I'd like to share experiences, suggestions, etc.
If you have a similar injury or know someone who does, I'd love to hear 
from you.  Thanks.
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry,news.answers
From: zulauf@csn.org (Mike Zulauf)
Subject: iodine crystals: here's how   (was Re: iodine crystals: how?)
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 06:59:55 GMT

In article <01010064.lnsgrm@titipu.resun.com> ed@titipu.resun.com (Edward Reid) writes:
>zulauf@orbit.Colorado.EDU (Mike Zulauf) writes:
>>   How do I use this stuff?
>
>You have discovered why people buy Polar Pure -- it comes with instructions,
>all the necessary equipment, and the right size crystals.  And at a very
>reasonable price for the complete package, even if it is high just for the
>iodine.
>

     Actually, I have discovered nothing of the sort.  What I HAVE discovered
is the answer to my own question, in a book that I already had.  (I know it's
bad form to answer my own question, but what the hell . . .)

Copied from _Simple Foods For The Pack - The Sierra Club Guide to
Delicious Natural Foods for the Trail_ (without permission)

p. 12
     Iodine Crystals:  These are obtainable through a pharmacist.
     Add 4 to 8 grains of crystal to a 1-ounce vial of water,
     making a saturated solution.  Add this solution, strained from
     the crystals, by the capful (2.5 cc), to a quart of water, and
     let it stand for 30 minutes to 1 hour before drinking.

     The amount of solution to use depends on the temperature of
     water per quart:

                   37 deg F     8-10 capfuls
                   68 deg F     5-6 capfuls
                   77 deg F     5 capfuls
                  104 deg F     4 capfuls

     The crystals may be used many times.

     Ingesting a crystal is extremely dangerous - iodine is toxic.
     Persons with thyroid problems should not use an iodine treatment
     at all.

End Quote.

Note: the above capfuls are 2.5 cc, about 1/2 a teaspoon.

Thanks everyone; sorry for the wasted bandwidth.
                                                 Mike Zulauf
                                                 zulauf@orbit.colorado.edu
From: tonyz@hpwrce.mayfield.hp.com (Tony Zugates)
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 00:40:44 GMT
Subject: Re: Cat mistakes sleeping bag for litterbox
Organization: the HP Mtn.View Resp. Cntr.
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry

We have 5 cats and they mistake more that sleeping bags for litter
boxes, believe me.

We have found that when we wash, we add about quart or two of vinegar.
This is something my fiance learned from someone..I tend to be 
skeptical of voodoo, but it works great!
From: jamiller@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Maps in Binary form?  FTP sites for them?
Date: 28 Dec 92 00:21:27 CST
Organization: University of Kansas Academic Computing Services

Does anyone know if there are topo or other maps in digital form
available anywhere?  Format of the pictures really wouldn't matter I
could convert them from pretty much anything.  They wouldn't need to
be too high depth so maybe you could mail them if you have them?
-- 
jamiller@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu
James Miller

_chicchai .sig no ho ga ichiban iin janai ka..._
             Enlightenment Happens?
From: jerryk@col.hp.com (Jerry Kinsley)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Nice low-traffic hike in Central Colorado, San Isabel range.
Date: 31 Dec 1992 07:21:27 GMT
Organization: HP Colorado Springs Division
NNTP-Posting-Host: la.col.hp.com

San Isabel National orest is in the Wet Mtns, East of Westcliff, The range west of Westcliffe is the Sangre de Christo.

Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: cyeomans@ms.uky.edu (Charles Yeomans)
Subject: Re: Invitation from Rockport
Keywords: Rockport, Kilamanjaro
    <1992Dec15.230425.2793@csc.ti.com> 
    <1992Dec20.025713.24993@news.media.mit.edu>
Organization: University Of Kentucky, Dept. of Math Sciences
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 16:35:25 GMT

In article <1992Dec20.025713.24993@news.media.mit.edu> geek@media.mit.edu (Chris Schmandt) writes:
>In article <1992Dec15.230425.2793@csc.ti.com> czichon@psyche.csc.ti.com (Cary Czichon) writes:
>>Is their training program supposed to allow acclimatization to 19,340 feet in
>>one day?  Amazing!  Can you spell cerebral edema?  I knew you could.
>
>I'm not defending Rockport's one day "assault" on kilimanjaro, but the
>reading that I did after getting pulmonary edema in Colorado was that
>it usually takes 2-3 days before edema sets in seriously.  In my case,
>I ascended from sea level, where I live, to about 12K feet the same
>day, and remained near that altitude for 4 nights; my symptoms got
>pronounced only on the last night.
>
>But I'm not a doctor nor an expert.
>
Isn't this how, for example, Messner climbed Denali in a day?  As I
undersatnd it, he went up to 14,000 ft and hung out for several days,
then went to the summit and back in a day.

Charles Yeomans
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Date: Monday, 21 Dec 1992 09:59:38 CST
From: Chuck Amsler <U52809@uicvm.uic.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: XC SKI bindings - recommendations wanted
Distribution: rec.backcountry

Check out the rec.skiing XC FAQ, especially for backcountry equipment info.
(I *think* it's #3 in the rec.skiing FAQ series.)

  -- Chuck Amsler       U52809@UICVM.UIC.EDU        Univ. of Ill. @ Chicago
_____________________________________________________________________________
The world's oldest ... ski race, the Vasaloppet, annually attracts about 9000
Sweeds and about 1500 foreigners....  In completing the 85-km course, the
average racer loses four to five pounds ... equivalent to having 280 racers
disappear completely during the course of the event.
                         -- J. Caldwell & M. Brady (1982) _Citizen Racing_
From: padams@cvbnet.prime.com (cvbnet)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Winter Boots
Date: 28 Dec 92 19:51:41 GMT

From article <1hfsdmINNc8a@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>, by au143@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mikael Niku):
> 
>         There has been some discussion about winter boots.
> I'd like to ask (again !) if the concept of RUBBER BOOT is 
> totally unknown to Americans, etc. !
>  
  rubber boots are not totally unknown. some of us refer to them
as 'pacs'. the only trouble with rubber is it's too easily penetrated
with a crampon. plastic boots help with that.

                                        -paul
From: wae@aero.org (William A. Emanuelsen)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: HOLLOW POINTS in the backcountry
Date: 22 Dec 1992 15:15:20 GMT
Organization: The Bugs Bunny Show
NNTP-Posting-Host: aerospace.aero.org
Summary: Shoot 'im now!  Shoot 'im now!
Keywords: Wait 'til you get home!

>Actually, someone has been doing this in Eastern Ohio for the last few years.
>An assassin is murdering loan hunters in the backwoods, by sniping from cover.
>The innocent hunters end up dead, and their families end up without them.
>Not all that exhilirating.

It's especially sad when you consider that these families are probably
in bad financial shape, considering that they need a loan so badly.
Personally, I go the bank.  I've yet to find a loan officer in the
forest, or at least one with a pen so I can fill out the forms.

-- 
William A. Emanuelsen    I degaussed my girlfriend and I'm
wae@aerospace.aero.org      just not attracted to her anymore.
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: First Aid Liability
From: Eric Schweitzer <ERSHC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Date: Friday, 1 Jan 1993 16:19:59 EST
Distribution: na
Organization: City University of New York/ University Computer Center

In article <BzF1F1.6CB@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu>,
sdfinuca@cayley.uwaterloo.ca (Sean Finucane) says:
>
>I was planning to take standard St. John's First Aid and also CPR next
>year and was wondering, as the Heading says, about liability.

<lots of stuff, and many good responses deleted>

All answers have so far been from a legal point of view, as was the question,
perhaps, but I MUST add the following:

If you happen upon an accident that requires controle of bleeding, or CPR,
or any other situation in which 'exchange of bodily fluids' can occure,
you better protect yourself, or you are liable to get Hep. B or AIDS or ...

If you don't travel with at least rubber gloves and a resuscitation
mask, then, if you do get involved, be aware that you are liable
for problems other than legal actions.

(just 2 more pence)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: eberg@chinet.chi.il.us (Erik Arthur Berg)
Subject: Which pack: Gregory or Mountainsmith?
Followup-To: eberg@chinet.chi.il.usa
Organization: Chinet - Public Access UNIX
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 06:25:39 GMT


   I'm trying to decide which pack to buy; a Mountainsmith Elite 5000
or a Gregory Nova.  I've looked at the Mountainsmith and it seems very
well constructed with lots of nice details.  I have used a Gregory
Day and a Half pack and liked it but I haven't found a dealer in Chicago
that carries Gregory to look at a Nova.  Anybody familiar with both care
to make a recommendation?  I will post a summary if there is interest.

----
erik berg  eberg@chinet.chi.il.usa