From: btlee@emx.cc.utexas.edu (Byungtae Lee)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.korean
Subject: Re:This is all crap. Skip unless you are Mr.Minho Jo.
Date: 31 Dec 92 08:16:20 GMT
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin; Austin, Texas

From: mj03@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (MINHO JO) writes:
Preface:
       I thank my refrigerator which makes my head COOL.
                   Minho
 ##### but I could not find anything COOL from your thread. Please
      check your refregerator.  

>#### First of all, I have full of regret for starting postings in this net
>     where I believe I have encountered many disagreement from a few who do
>     not have proper attitude to exchange different opinions.
>     However, because of your labeling my political stands, I have to
>     continue this damn time consuming.

REPLY:
      I have read your several articles.   I have found you are so sensitive
      to somebody's comments.  You are now mentioning other guys' attitude.
      Before you complaine,  you are suggested to go back and think over
      the nasty words you used.
      The nasty words (ex. ridiculous, stupid,  IQ Uoon Uoon ....) are enough
      agressive to backfire.   Before you complain others labelling your
      political stand,   think of YS, who you support and who was labelling
      DJ communist follower.

****(BT) First of all, I am not YS and there is no reason why I defend whatever
      YS did unlike you do for DJ.

      The reason why I used the "nasty words" was that you just started
      the naming and I got angry.  Following your maxim, I treated you as I was
      treated. 

      Also, you did not answer to my question about your definition
      of the far-right-extremest. Still I am looking forward to hear about
      that. 
-----
      I feel sad to wast my time again in response to yours.
****(BT)  
        Then you can stop any time. I am not interested in your sturbon
        opinion any more.  But the reason why I continue is that I think 
        I got offended by you.
-----  
>     1.  Your title:
>     Then how can you accept the choice of Korean as a whole?
>     Are they all foolish?  Don't you accept the result?
>     Isn't it elitism?   I supplied my reasoning why DJ failed.
>     I have watched your restless support for DJ. When you postied titled
>     "SHOCKING NEWS.....", it was not shocking news to me and I thought
>     it was natural results from DJ or opposition party's fundamental
>      limitations, and so

      At least, some of YS supports are foolish.   They are victims of
      Minja's dirty election strategies.   The basic strategy of Minja
      was to build the Honam vs Non-Honam structure which should be kicked
      off . 
***(BT)      
          That's why I call you elitisist who unfortunately did not learn how
          to pursuade others. YES! YES! YOU are only one NOT FOOLISH guy!
          All 95% Cholla people are not foolish. They were free from
          regionalism. Are you happy now?
-------   
      The structure
      gives a great advantege to YS.  The number of legal votors in TK plus
      PK is about 7.5 million while Honam, 3.5 million.  Do you remember the
      Minja's slogan, "If you TK people vote for Jooyoun Jung,  DJ will
      be president."   The YS's dirty play that was spreading a bad rumor
      that DJ is a dangerous communist follower,  seemed to influence the
      conservative.   Can you believe DJ is a dangerous communist follower?
      However,  YS enjoyed the elcction with such a old and nasty attack which
      used to be employed by the previous army presidents.
      Can you believe that the votors who are stuck with Jiyuk-Gamjung, judge
      the candidates right ?

******(BT)
         Didn't I explain why I think DJ was not smart enough if he did not 
         forcast this strategy? Didn't I argue that it was DJ who made it more
         explicit because he established PDP which was Cholla party?
------         

>     I posted my reasoning why he doomed to fail and
      
      Since I disagree with your analysis,  I have been posting my opnions.
      According to the polls,  DJ and YS were in neck-and-neck race right
      after the Pusan scandal. 
****(BT)
        This verifies that DJ could win only by YS's sides mistakes or "Baram"
         or  the third party's good performance, not by his own capacity.
        That's why I thought unrealistic, unscientific. What if there was no
        such foolish scandal. How was pool before such scandal?
--------
      But the Pusan scandale made TK and PK become
      solid for YS one day before the election day.  Kim Gi-Choon's
      Giyuk-Gamjung comments  triggered their moving.  You can check this
      from YS side's polls results, and others.   In fact,  Kim Gi-Choon was
      named heoro for the election by the Minja congressmen in a meeting.
      I believe DJ was victimized again by the old haunting.
      YS should be reponsible for Korean politics's backing to the old time.
      If you see  a survey conducted by Jung-ang Il Bo,  Which party is mostly
      doing corruptive election activities ?
                         Minja:   35 %
                         Gookmin: 36%
                         Minju:   2 %
      I don't think I need to comment that.
******(BT)
          Even DJ did not need to triggered Giyuk-Gamjung because he had
         more solid  Giyuk-Gamjung votes.

>     why I can not support him and why I can not forgive his sins which he
>     has committed in the past because I was his supporter.
>     Without giving alternative explanation, some netters distorted my postings
     pick up minimal data or words which they believed, can be attacked.

     But you forgave YS' morals, dishonesty, and betrayal,  didn't you ?
     It never justifies your argument.

*******(BT)
        Did I agree with you that YS's decision was immoral, dishonest and 
        betrayed?  No I didn't.  Since I did not think so, there was no reason
       to forgive him.
----------

>     I really want to your reasoning or explanation about what happened rather
>     than your propaganda as a ardent DJ supporter.

      I am happy to support him.
****(BT)
      Unlike you, I never blame any body for supporting DJ nor I think anybody
      is foolish because he/she supports DJ. This is the difference between
      YOU and ME. 
-----
>btlee@emx.cc.utexas.edu (Mr. Byungtae Lee) writes:
>
>        2.  My political stands:
>
>        It is the first time to hear this about my political attitude.
                   ^^^^^
          Double-check the posts, Aftermath of Election, to see if
          this is first.
*****(BT)
         To hear from this net was the first time. In addition, unlike you
         some of netters who called me "far-extreme.." sent me mails to
         withdrew it.  So far, you are the only one who is still insisting that.-------
>        I have kept asking you guys to provide your definition rather than
>         your "FEELING" and nobody did that so far. Even I got a blackmail
>        with full of emotional expressions.
>        Still I do not understand why you guys have to identify or name other
>        poeple's political stands without discussing the relevant issues.
******(BT)
         Still unanswered. Can I suppose that you do not have the definition?
-----

> In reality,  even if one
>does not say which side he/she is in,   people can classify one in
>category,  based on his/her trends and preference,  and previous
>activities, comments,  and experiences.   Thus,  I carefully would
>put you in rihgt extremism according to your preference/dislike
>and comments.  You are also free to judge my trend based on what
>I said before and I am saying.
>
>          Give me examples which made you think I am a right-exptremist.
>          In addition I don't care what you are. I am only interested in
>          what you are saying. I have posted the facts which I thout were
>          wrong or outdated or I disagreed. That's it.
>          I did not blame anyone's preferences unlike you guys.

           You are still misunderstood yourself.
*******(BT)
           Because you are ONLY INTELLIGENT here.
---------

>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Now these are my opinions in reply to yours.
>Byeungtae's Claim:
>
>>        Why did you ignore the fact that YS trashed so-called "3-parties
>>        merging-secret-agreement" (Kak-Seo) of which core was parliamentary
>>        system, and rejected ChongChan Lee and TJ Park's request of that when
>>        he desparately needed them?
>

Minho writes:
            Politics is made progress by a sort of comprimise and yeilding if
            the better thing can be performed.   Yeilding mid-referendum
            made Roh do a lot of
            democritizations in the country.  But YS's changing party is
            different story.  Specially,  be noticed that Minja was
            artificially constructed by Gunbari.
*******(BT)
            So did YS add the fresh group of people to them?
            From your reasoning, whatever DJ did is constructive compromise and
            whatever YS did is betrayal. Didn't I provide why YS's choice was
            wiser than DJ and why I think it was not betrayal?
-----------
>         that he had preferred the parliamentary system.    I remember that
>         he repeated it several times during the period.   No matter when
>         he changed his preference,  he used to make bad use of the cheap
>         words,  "IF OUR PEOPLE WANT".    YS used to abuse the cheap words
>         when he went down back to his home time,  Geojea-Do after having
>         power games against other rivals within Minja-Dang.
>         He is still abusing the cheap words.
>######
>               You are saying the secret deal was his preference to
>               parliamentary system(PS). I do not agree. Only the reason
>               he merged was that that was only one way to be a prez because
>               there was his rival DJ in the opposition side and already
>               then political structure was degraded into rigionalism.
>######
>         Let's get to the point.   The first condition for the 3-party
           [deleted......]
>                  Don't change history.
>                  Isn't "SINCE THE PEOPLE WANT" the DJ's trademark?
>                  If he is cheap because of this, DJ is cheaper.

                   I don't want to tlak about whose trademark sicne SCK
                   friends must know what is true.
                   If DJ is cheaper,  YS is cheapest.
*********(BT)
             So many my counter-arguments are not anwered by you here.
             Because you do not have sufficient information or did not want
             to see what DJ said whenever he changed his words.
-------
>##########
>                        I already gave my judgement why I think he is(was)
>                        politically wiser than DJ who broke the opposition
>                        party in 1987 by foolish calculation.

                     You didn't get my points.
                     You never consider politician's basic morals, and
                     the people's opnions.    I can smell from your comment
                     that no problem with methods whatsoever,  only for
                     purpose.  I now come to know the real political wismdom.
**********(BT)
          You did not explain how could DJ's breakup from then-unique
          opposition party to become a prez. Yes. I believe politics is the
          compromise of "ideal" and "realities". Haven't I kept this premise
          from the beggining?  

>#########
>                Promise! Promise! Didn't you get my points. He could not build
>                enough trust from people because he changed so many his
>                promises.

                 DJ should do "Jung-Gea Gea-Pyun" to make him stable
                 regardless of his making promises.  I don't need to
                 explain it anymore.
*********(BT)
          So if DJ changes political structure artifically, then it is "Jung-
          Gea Gea-Pyun" and if YS or Roh does, is it betrayal?
          Good Logic!   

>                 Arrn't  all politicians servants of the power?
          
             Read it carefully !!

**********(BT)
          Read what? I was saying that basically all politicans are servants
          of the power. Aren't they? again. What's the goal of politicians?
          Read other's sentence more carefully !
          
>                Do you know the guys blamed DJ in  his own party and left him
>                and returned to him and so on?  Do you remember DJ has
>                negotiated with even CHUN, BokDong Kim, and JongChan Lee....
>                So do you mean your hero DJ will embrace so called servants of
>                power after election? Then what's the defference?
>#########
                At least,  DJ didn' sold his party at cheap price
                to Gunbari-Dang.
******(BT)
                YES, HE thought the party was HIS, not PEOPLE's.
               Was "Gunbari-Dang" chosen by people because DJ split the
               opposition party? So didn't he gave them political pardon?
---------
           You are always talking about Honam !,  Honam-based seoul people !
           Show me any evidence all of Honam-based seoul and Honam-based
           Pusan votors voted for DJ.   How can explain DJ got about 10 %
           in the TK area ?    All of them are again Honam-based TK people ?
**********(BT)
 
          Why did you delete your comment on CHOONGCHUNG or KangWon people?
          I am saying Honam and Non-honam
           because this result can not be explained without regional preference
           .  
           Did I exclude any non-Honam voters 100%? I am talking about the
           GENERAL trend.  Didn't I explain why I do not have any reservation
           to analyze the result of regionalism? I'll repeat that. Because
          it can be overcome only when we face it rather than hiding it.
---------
>#######      Because he was enjoying his position of the largest oppostion
>             party in the first time in his life and He believed he got the
>             right way to be a prez.   In addition, he could not catch what
>             Roh was saying.

              I disagree DJ didn't catch it.
              He once mentioned the Roh's proposal at a press-man interview.
              He said that he declined the proposal because our party is
              basically diffrent from Minja in color,  princeples,  and
              objectives.
#######(BT)
         I still remember how embrassed and angered when it was uncovered.
-------

>              If he did, what do you think he might do?

               Before telling what he might do,  I wouldn' support him.
               I hope now that you can understand my political stand point.
#######(BT)
        Yes I knew from the begining. You are sturbon DJ supporter.
        This dare statement is just the result of your MAXIM.
-------
>           your school support YS.
>
>                QUESTION:  How old are they ?
>                           Where are from in Korea ?
>                           Do you think they are middle class or
>                           upper class ?
>                YOU MUST SPECIFY THE ABOVE THINGS.
>
>########

           I got the answer to the question from the guy who posted it.
           I am sorry that I can not reveal it in public.
#######(BT)
           But you never apolize to me whom was misquated by you.
-------
>#########
>          When I took my experience, I was objecting the other netter's claim
>          that young generation supports DJ. What I said was that that's very
>          biased sampling.

           Don't you think yours is rather biased if your frieds are
           collegiates or collegiated ?     Recall that you said collegiates
           and colliguated people are in favor of DJ.
##########
           Didn't I miss the adjective "liberal" or "progressive" in the
            original thread?  Cann't you agree that Korean young generation, on
            average, are not DJ supporters as much as you are? Here, "young" 
          meant 20's and 30's in my original posting.
--------
>          You called it betrayal. But I did not.  Why?
>          Do you believe that his home province voted for him because he was
>          the opposition leader? No. to make him a president who is the son of
>          my home town. that's the logic behind his potical share. I insisted
>          that this is the consequence of splitting oppostion party in 1987
>          triggered by DJ.  After that we had only regional parties.

           Don't twist history.
           You are talking about the congressional election after YS
           joined Minja.
           Let's think of the congressional election before YS joined Minja.
           Pusan and other people supported his party since they like YS
           to be against the military regime at that time.  He was always
           shouting "Stop the military regime (Gun-Jung Jong-Shik)".
           However,  what did he do ?   He became  a follower of Gunbari Dang.
           He could be president by their assists.
           Recall my sayings, "The people who are stuck with regionalism can
           not judge something right".   This will be the same in Kyoungsang
           and Cholla.
           I can forgive a person, YS, but I can not forgive sins he commited.

#######(BT)
         Do I have to repeat how I view YS's decision?
         Didn' we have another congress election after 87 prez election?
----------

           You didn't answer my question.
#######(BT)   Which question? BTW,
           Did you anwer to my all questions?
 
>#######
>
>    QUESTION:  How can you explain the results that most of
>               my friends in this school,  are in favor of DJ ?
>               Note:  Most of them are middle class,  f
>                             seoul,  and are 30th.
>#########
>            I DID mention that DJ has strong support form college-
>          or college-graduated voters. Do you think this group is the majority?
>           Wasn't it the answer?  Read more carefully
>           and do not repeat this stupid things.
>##########                        ^^^^^^
                                      ->  Gentle word,  great.
             So didn't I or DID I? of cause I do not throw a pearl to a pig.

>          What I said was that oppostion party didn't have scientific approach,
>          was not realistic.

           I am sick of saying the same things again.    Simply,  without
           kicking off regionalism in Korea,  we can never select a well
           qualified,  wise,  smart, and popular president.  So, scientific,
           realistic whatever can not be applied in that sad situation.
########(BT)
          It can not be  achieved by hiding it or blaming someone who is
          saying it explicitly. So if you define he is well qualified, then
         should all Korean agree?
---------
     ***  One does not know what he is doing when he is out of control.
          "Know yourself".   It is really difficult maxim even if
          it is really simple sentence.
########(BT)
          Ask youself who first mixed emotion! Do not pretend that you are 
         only smart! 

P.S. Next time, would you delete blank lines between your text lines?