From: 91287041@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca ( )
Subject: Re: Least Valuable Players (career), or Great Clubhouse Influences
Organization: Dept. of Computer Science, Laurentian University, Sudbury, ON
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1992 09:21:23 GMT

In <1992Apr12.033648.7561@Princeton.EDU> niepornt@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (David Marc Nieporent) writes:

>In article <1992Apr11.234752.671@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca> 91287041@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca ( ) writes:
>>In <204766@unix.cis.pitt.edu> dtate@unix.cis.pitt.edu (David M Tate) writes:

>>>An even worse example if Alfredo Griffin, who played 140 games at shortstop
>>>in 1984 for a team that had Tony Fernandez.  Fernandez was only 21, but he

>>Griffin played 6 years in TO, 3 in OAK and 4 in LA.  Toronto, a defending
>>champion, just reacquired him.  These 3 organizations are 3 of the most
>>successful in the game.  Are you implying that they don't know what they
>>are doing? 

>Yes.

>On the other hand, all three of these organizations got rid of him.  This
>is not something teams normally do if they think a guy was important to
>their success (cf Tree-Stump Lansford, Mookie Wilson, or Dan Gladden,
>all of whom hung/are hanging around for years after they didn't belong.)

>For *THAT* matter, what are you talking about?  The Blue Jays were BAD
>when they had Alfredo Griffin.  In fact, very bad.  They got better when
>they replaced him with Tony Fernandez.  The As won 3 straight pennants

Blew Jays record in the Griffin years:

79 - 53-109
80 - 67-95
81 - 37-69
82 - 78-84
83 - 89-73
84 - 89-73

No they "get better" with griffin in the lineup - when fernandez came
they were already good...

>after they traded him.  The Dodgers won ONCE with Griffin, and he wasn't
>even playing full time.  (I think Orel Hershiser had a *little* more to
>do with THAT one.)

>>            No, I think the problem might be found in your one-dimensional
>>analysis of a player's worth.

>One dimensional?  He can't hit.  He doesn't walk.  He has no power.  He
>isn't great defensively. What DOES that leave?  Oh, wait, I know -->

>>Alfredo Griffin is reported to be a really nice guy, a positive influence
>		    ^^^^^^^^
>So you don't even know it's true!  You just read it somewhere.  Dewey
>was reported to be beating Truman, too.

>>on the bench, in the clubhouse and on the field - if not at the plate.

>Good, then make him a coach. He can still have that great positive 
>influence on the team on the bench and in the clubhouse, and he won't
>be killing the team at the plate.

well he is sitting on TO's bench this year...If TO wins will you
concede that he might be a factor - just might mind you - 'cause there
is no sure way to measure it :-)

>Like Dan Gladden.  We heard from Twins fans the same sorts of things --
>he's a great guy, plays hard, and helps the team in ways that don't show
>up in the stats.  Until it was shown that the Twins did better when he wasn't 
>in the lineup.

>Hell, I can name a team of 25 "really nice guys" that would lose to the
>1991 Indians every time they played.  Start with Rene Gonzales and work
>from there.  On the other hand, give me a team full of disruptive players 
>like Tartabull, Mitchell, Belle, Strawberry, and Henderson, and they'd wipe 
>the floor with any team around.

its the mix, the chemistry of players working together, some are nice
guys, some are jerks (just like this board...) the point is that the
chemistry is beyond analysis...

>I know there are players out there that are a lot of fun to watch, (there
>are several of them on the Orioles, like Billy "Am I *really* related to 
>Cal?" Ripken) but why you think this means they belong in the majors is 
>beyond me.

if billy hangs in as long as alfredo then you will have to concede that
he must be doing something right...

>>Making him the butt of your little statistical jokes shows a complete
>>lack of respect for a man who commands a lot more respect from his peers
>>than Tony Fernandez.  Ask the players if he made a "measurable" contribution.
> 
>Well, pardon me for asking, but how the f**k would YOU know which of

If you go to the odd game you get to see little things like high fives
at the plate and you get to hear the players relating to each other.  Doesn't
show up in box scores.  There are players in all team sports that are "glue"
and they usually aren't the best players on the team.  but they are certainly
among the most important...

>them commands more respect from their peers?  As a person, I'm sure
>Alfredo is a really nice guy who deserves a lot of respect.  But I don't
>*care* what he's like as a person.  I'm not asking him to babysit my kids.  

No but his teammates DO care.  its a long season out there guys...

>As a baseball player, I don't see why I'm obligated to give him respect he
>hasn't earned.

and the whole point of this posting is that there are as many different ways
of earning respect as there are ways of contributing to a winning ball-club 
- and not all of them can be entered on a spreadsheet.

>>>          David M. Tate            |"The man who hath no music in himself

>>roger l. maynard                              

>-- 
>David M. Nieporent              |ALEast 92: 1.Baltimore 2.Boston 3.Toronto
>niepornt@phoenix.princeton.edu  |4. Detroit 5.Milwaukee 6.NY 8.Cleveland
>"Baseball stathead, and card-carrying member of the ACLU.  And proud of it."


-- 
roger l. maynard                              
91287041@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca             
Sudbury Ont.                                
Canada