HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: smayo@wang.com (Scott Mayo)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Self-love, self-esteem, and "saving the earth" as heresies
Date: 15 Apr 92 08:34:01 GMT
Organization: Wang Labs, Lowell MA, USA

[In one corner of this ongoing discussion, there was an exchange started
by somebody using the word "progress".  One of our readers (whose 
identity is hidden in a flood of widgets thought that progress sounded
like a new age code word.

judy@locus.com (Judy Leedom Tyrer) writes:

>I find that on my spiritual journey there is definitely progress. I find that 
>the closer I come to Jesus, the more he demands of me.  The more I live up to 
>his demands, the closer I get the more he demands - loop forever.  What I
>do NOT find is that I can say, "Jesus, you're my personal savior" and sit back
>and relax.  

>Since you are doing your best not to make the process more difficult than it
>has to be, I am guessing that you also consider redemption an ongoing
>process.  Aren't you progressing through this process?  Or is Jesus doing
>ALL the work.  

--clh]

I'm answering with a post because the answer may have general value.
It's a near thing; I'm inclined to take this sort of thing to private
email. Moderator, feel free to advise a private discussion if you
think the needs of the many are better met that way.

I like to think that I do a bit better each day at not offering offense
to God. In practice, I find it depends on the day. With God's help I
have dropped a lot of habits that separated me from God. I still know
of quite a number, and there are probably a lot I don't know of yet.

In terms of salvation, Jesus *is* doing all the work. I'm not earning
anything. My attempt to do better is founded on two things - I've come
to love God and don't want to offend Him, and I realise that if I just
lie back and make no effort at all, I make a mockery of what I believe
and what Jesus did. In other words, I struggle to be good, but I'd be
kidding myself if I expected that struggle to bring me into God's
presence. It won't and can't. If it could, we wouldn't *need* Jesus at
all; and I am very much of the camp that claims we need Jesus.

Today, for example, I am having a difficult day - work's gone poorly,
I've gotten some difficult mail, and I woke up feeling tired to begin
with. As a result, I've had to make incredible efforts just to be
civil, let alone even *pretend* that I love my co-workers. God
expects that I will love others, with His love. I haven't lived up to
that today. If I were judged on my own merit, based on this day, who
knows what would happen? I can't say I "progressed" at all today. But I
*can* apologize to folk around me, and ask God's forgiveness
for being such a poor conduit of God's love. In Jesus, that is
sufficient. Do you believe anything radicaly differently? I've
always thought of the *need* of Jesus's redemptive sacrifice as
absolutely central to Christianity; deny it and nothing is left...
--
These are only my opinions.  You should hear my convictions.
smayo@wang.com
From: tlc20700@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Thomas L. Carney)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Coptic Church and Monophysitism
Date: 15 Apr 92 08:09:04 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana

[Several people had indicated an interest to hear more about the
Coptic church. tlc20700@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Thomas L. Carney) writes:
>I talked with a friend who is Coptic Orthodox...They use the liturgy of
>St. Mark and some parts are in Arabic, sometimes in Syriac.  
--clh]

I want to correct this...The liturgical language is Coptic, which is 
related to Greek, and some parts of the liturgy of St. Mark are in Arabic.

Tom
From: hudson@athena.cs.uga.edu (Paul Hudson Jr)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Missionary Trip
Date: 8 Apr 92 08:31:59 GMT
Organization: University of Georgia, Athens

In article <Apr.6.22.56.45.1992.13079@dartagnan.rutgers.edu> ifbj417@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu () writes:
>***If anyone is planning to go on a missionary trip to Mexico and need
>translators give me a call at (512)326-4923, I will deeply appreciate it.
>					Hope you've enjoyed my experience,
>						Love in Christ,
>						Ezy Martinez

There is talk in my church here in Georgia that they might send the youth
to Mexico on a missions trip this summer.  I don't know what they are
doing about translating, but they probably have people who will either
go with us, or who live in Mexico to translate.  They might send us to
an orphanage, I think they said.  Anyway, what should an American know
before going to Mexico?  For example, what water can we drink?

Link Hudson.
From: rls@dexnet.uucp (Ron Skrabanek)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Grace To God
Date: 13 Apr 92 05:57:18 GMT
Organization: The Order of the Albino Pachyderm

In 2 Corinthians 2:14-17, Paul thanks God. In fact, he uses the word 
charis and is actually extending grace to God; as if the subject can 
extend grace to a the sovereign.    [2:14a]

Paul is grateful because we are God's triumph. The sense of the verb is 
that God parades us to demonstrate His victory. I would suggest that He 
displays us to the angels who were created before us(1 Cor 4:9, 1 Tim 
5:21, 1 Peter 1:12-13, Job 1:8).    [2:14b]

Paul is also grateful because we are God's fragrance. Consider the 
figure of the aroma. You cannot ignore one's presence and the source is 
usually readily apparent. My presence in a room should point people to 
God in this manner.    [2:14c-16a]

Finally, Paul points out that we are incapable. Our competence can only 
come from Him(3:5-6). Our competence is built upon selfless 
service(unlike the many peddlers) and a close personal relationship with 
Jesus Christ.    [2:16b-17]

Paul extends his thanks to God, because He makes it possible for us to 
serve Him. I am grateful as well. rls

dexnet!rls@zgnews.lonestar.org  (Ron Skrabanek)
From: bill@bessel.as.utexas.edu (William H. Jefferys)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Coptic Church and Monophysitism
Date: 17 Apr 92 02:55:52 GMT
Organization: McDonald Observatory, University of Texas @ Austin

In article <Apr.15.04.09.04.1992.4198@dumas.rutgers.edu> tlc20700@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Thomas L. Carney) writes:
#
#I want to correct this...The liturgical language is Coptic, which is 
#related to Greek, and some parts of the liturgy of St. Mark are in Arabic.

Coptic is unrelated to Greek, which is and Indo-European language.
From Webster's 3rd International:

	"Coptic--An Afro-Asiatic language descended from
	ancient Egyptian and used by Egyptians from about
	the 3d century AD to about 1500 when it was superceded
	by Arabic and became a dead language, except for
	continued liturgical use in the Coptic Church."

Knowledge of Coptic, BTW, played an important role in
the decipherment of Egyptian heiroglyphics, because of 
the close relationship between Coptic and ancient
Egyptian.

Bill
From: dali@milton.u.washington.edu (David A. Lee)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: the church established by Jesus Christ
Date: 13 Apr 92 05:57:13 GMT
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle

[Bob von Buelow summarzed Catholic teaching in the Constitution on the
Church.  It teaches that the Catholic faithful who possess the Holy
Spirit are "fully" incorporated in the Church.  However members of
other Christian churches are also part of the Church in a wider sense.
Regarding non-Christians: "Among the people who do not acknowledge the
Gospel, the grace of God is present and touches the hearts of men; if
they strive, under the influence of this grace, to be faithful to the
truth they see and to live according to their moral conscience, then
they are indeed on the way to salvation."  --clh]

Ok, so there is something that has troubled me as a Christian for many 
months.  Who can say that someone who has accepted Christ and has love
for Him in his/her heart isn't a Christian?  The people I refer to are
LDS church members who strongly profess love for Christ.  I read about
the Catholic church and its beliefs, some people saying that perhaps the
Catholics aren't Christians.  A lot of people say Mormons aren't Christians.

But we forget.  *We* are not to judge others faith.  Who are we, but a 
breath in the nostrils?  I have great difficulty entering and participating
in a church that states you are "true Christians" they are "false
Christians."  

I am not an LDS member, but have a friend who is that I care for very 
deeply.  I knew her years before she joined the church.  And now I find
myself feeling sorry for her, and praying for her.  Even though she 
professes a deep love of God and Christ.

Please don't tell me that we (man) can tell who is a "real Christian".

David L.
 
-- 
"There are hundreds of tiny balls in every machine, and hundreds of machines
in every pachinko parlour, and a pachinko parlour on every block in every
town in Japan; so there are billions of little balls falling forever, like a
chromium-plated hailstorm that never melts."  - from "Clive James in Japan"
From: allenmk@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (Allen Melinda Kay)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Billy Graham carrying message from the Pope
Date: 13 Apr 92 05:47:28 GMT
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder

allenmk@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (Allen Melinda Kay) writes:

>name "Christian," I are taking the Lord's Name upon myself--if I do not want
                   ^^^^^
Oops.  Can you tell I "is" a college senior?  I can't stand it when I goof up
on my editing!

Melinda
-- 
Melinda K. Allen                  The LORD is close to the brokenhearted 
allenmk@ucsu.colorado.edu       and saves those who are crushed in spirit.   
allenmk@tramp.colorado.edu			               Psalm 34:18
From: conan@wheatena.berkeley.edu (David Cruz-Uribe)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Realignment (was Re: Billy Graham carrying message from the Pope)
Date: 17 Apr 92 02:12:29 GMT
Organization: U.C. Berkeley Math. Department.

In response to the discussion about Christians of various denominations
crossing denominational lines to align on "liberal/conservative"
issues (the most recent post being the co-operation of Cathlolics
and Evangelicals on abortion):  the problem comes that many
denominations split on various issues.

For example, here in the San Francisco area, the Catholics and
the Evangelical churches have broken away from the local 
ecumenical group in protest over their stand on abortion.  On the
other hand, Catholics and many "liberal" denominations have
joined together to protest the pending execution of Robert Harris,
while the "conservative" denominations are silent or support
the execution.

(As a tangent:  what is the stand of various denominations on
the death penalty?)

The moral is that there will be co-operation on specific issues,
but I don't see this pointwise contact leading to anything else.

Yours in Christ,

David Cruz-Uribe, SFO
From: cprice@treehut.waffle.atl.ga.us (Clyde Price)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Where did the story of Satan's fall, etc., come from?
Date: 17 Apr 92 02:18:42 GMT
Organization: Clyde's TreeHut BBS

> [As far as I know, the Gideons distribute standard translations without
> modifying them.  I believe they distribute several different ones.  --clh]

Gideons ordinarily distribute the King James (Authorized) Version.
There is a personal workers' edition available only to Gideons in an
older edition of the Berkeley New Testament, and a military NT/Ps,Pv in
the New International Version.  My father was a Gideon and collected
copies of each of these editions.  The only complete English Bibles the
Gideons distribute that I'm aware of are KJV.



Clyde C. Price, Jr.  CIS# 76616,3452   CLYDE'S TREEHUT BBS 404/767-1632
P.O.Box 667, Red Oak, GA 30272 USA voc:404/761-2327 /I'm a "whosoever"!
Atl.Christian Tech Society (3rd Tues)/ cprice@treehut.waffle.atl.ga.us
From: dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Billy Graham carrying message from the Pope
Date: 10 Apr 92 03:32:16 GMT
Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting, Cambridge MA

In article <Apr.9.04.06.10.1992.16777@dartagnan.rutgers.edu> dlhanson@nap.amoco.com (David L. Hanson) writes:
>There were many followers of the true faith that had nothing to do with
>the Roman Church.  Quoting from The Trail of Blood by J. M. Carroll

Can someone provide some information on this book?  It sounds
like an anti-Catholic polemic.  When was it written?  Who is
Carroll?  Why should he be believed?

I think you would be hardpressed to demonstrate that any of
these movements have a lineal connection to modern-day Protestantism.

-- 
Steve Dyer
dyer@ursa-major.spdcc.com aka {ima,harvard,rayssd,linus,m2c}!spdcc!dyer
From: cabrera@ricevm1.rice.edu (glenn)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: some musings on theodicy
Date: 14 Apr 92 07:02:52 GMT
Organization: Rice University, Houston, TX

In article <Apr.13.01.59.49.1992.23179@dumas.rutgers.edu>
st0o+@andrew.cmu.edu (Steven Timm) writes:
>My thoughts on Charles Hedrick's post on why the sufferings of hell
>happen.
>I think it is indeed true, as he said, that only those who know God will
>be prepared to live in heaven...(other stuff deleted)
>
>Steve Timm
>
 I have a question on that, if you don't mind. Does preparation really matter?
 What about the thief of Golgotha who was saved on the very day he was
 executed?

[I suspect he meant preparation by having committed ourselves to
Christ, not by having been a Christian for more than N years.  --clh]
From: smayo@wang.com (Scott Mayo)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Billy Graham carrying message from the Pope
Date: 7 Apr 92 02:56:29 GMT
Organization: Wang Labs, Lowell MA, USA

>>I am interested in the opinions of both Catholics and Protestants, especially
>>Southern Baptists, of Billy Graham and what he is doing. 

>He is simply "unequally yoking with unbelievers".  I don't know about
>the Southern Baptists but I know many Independent Baptists (not affiliated
>with a denomination or convention) to not appreciate Mr. Graham's 
>ecumenical gestures.  Leading people to Christ and sending them back
>to the Roman Catholic Church is not acceptable to us.

I'm appalled by this. Absolutely appalled. Anyone who knows my views knows
that I take a very dim view indeed of catholic teachings; indeed I think
some of it borders on heresy at points. But, and this is the part that
matters, it is completely contrary to the gospel, and a massive affornt
to the salvation offered by Jesus, to deny that a person cannot have a
relationship with Jesus and still worship in a catholic church. Many do.

It may not be acceptable to *you* to send folk back to the RCC, laddie,
but it may well be acceptable to Jesus, who was not too proud to meet
people where they were, and *did* require love between the believers
in his church - which catholics are not excluded from, whatever view to
the contrary you may take. Argue that there are doctrinal errors to be
found in the RCC if you like (there are such in every church, I think) but
don't tell me that Graham, who is doing his best to tear down one of the
most serious divisions in the church, is doing wrong by trying to work with
catholics (and especially the catholics who are clearly willing to work
within a protestant setting, which is no small thing.)

If catholics and protestants can't even show tolerance, let alone love,
for one another, a fat lot of fools were are going to look, trying to
bring the love of Jesus to the heathens. 
--
These are only my opinions.  You should hear my convictions.
smayo@wang.com
From: nigel.allen@canrem.com (Nigel Allen)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: ordination of women
Date: 17 Apr 92 02:46:47 GMT


 Women's Ordination Conference to Hold Holy Thursday Rituals
 To: Assignment Desk, Daybook Editor, Religion Writer
 Contact: Ruth Fitzpatrick of the Women's Ordination Conference,
          703-352-1006

   News Advisory:

   On Holy Thursday, April 16, across the nation members of the
Women's Ordination Conference will hold alternative inclusive chrism
ceremonies anointing women, men and children while Roman Catholic
cathedrals hold annual chrism masses re-affirming priestly vows and
re-dedicating diocesan priests to their bishops in what some refer to
as "a gathering of the old boys' club" that highlights the exclusion
of women.
   In the Washington area, WOC members will gather outside the
chainlink gates of the Cathedral of St. Thomas More, 3901 Cathedral
Lane, Arlington.  (Cathedral Lane lies between Roy Rogers and
Kentucky Fried Chicken off Glebe Road near the intersection of
Arlington Blvd./Rt. 50).  They will hold a press conference at 10
a.m. on the sidewalk outside the cathedral parking lot while members
leaflet those entering the cathedral.  At 10:30 a.m. WOC members
will hold their own ritual of anointing in solidarity with the women
priests of Czechoslovakia.
   In Czechoslovakia, after a lifetime of communism, it was recently
revealed that at least three women and several hundred married men
had been ordained in the underground church.  They risked their lives
to keep the faith alive and are now told by the Vatican they are not
needed.
   In the Arlington Diocese, statues of the Blessed Virgin Mary have
been said to weep.  Ruth Fitzpatrick, national coordinator of the
Women's Ordination Conference, whose national office is located
within the bounds of the Arlington diocese, asks: "Could it be that
Mary is weeping because of the sad situation of women in the
church?  Is Mary weeping because talented and capable women
and married men are forbidden to express their priestly ministries?
Is she weeping because the exclusion of women from the priesthood
is again reiterated in the newly released third draft of the
pastoral the bishops are writing on women?"
   Holy Thursday is one of the most solemn in the Christian
liturgical calendar.  It is the memorial of the last supper, held the
night before Jesus died.  WOC members from 28 states, the
Philippines, Canada and Scotland will be holding similar inclusive
rituals.  The national WOC office has responded to nearly 100
requests for inclusive liturgy packets.
   The Women's Ordination Conference is a 17-year-old grassroots
international movement of women and men working for the ordination of
women in the Roman Catholic church to a renewed priestly ministry, a
ministry of mutuality and service.  WOC enjoys strong ecumenical and
international support.
 -30-
--
Canada Remote Systems  - Toronto, Ontario/Detroit, MI
World's Largest PCBOARD System - 416-629-7000/629-7044
From: conan@wheatena.berkeley.edu (David Cruz-Uribe)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Missionary Trip
Date: 9 Apr 92 08:11:44 GMT
Organization: U.C. Berkeley Math. Department.

In article <Apr.8.04.31.58.1992.27857@dumas.rutgers.edu> hudson@athena.cs.uga.edu (Paul Hudson Jr) writes:
>There is talk in my church here in Georgia that they might send the youth
>to Mexico on a missions trip this summer.  I don't know what they are
>doing about translating, but they probably have people who will either
>go with us, or who live in Mexico to translate.  They might send us to
>an orphanage, I think they said.  Anyway, what should an American know
>before going to Mexico?  For example, what water can we drink?

Let me answer the direct question:  in Mexico, only drink
the water if  you know explicitly that it is safe to do so--e.g.
it is "bottled water".  Some of the better hotels also have 
filter systems so that you can drink the tap water in your room.
In general, in a person's home you cannot drink the water from the
tap.  (Now that Cholera is spreading in Mexico it is doubly 
important to remember this.)

More generally, there are two things which anyone going to Mexico
need (in my incredibly biased opinion) need to know.  First,
especially among older Mexicans, you may find anti-American bias.
Mexico has been invaded twice by the U.S. in the past 150 years, and
endured long periods of economic domination.  
One of the rallying cries of the revolution of 1910 was
"Mexico for the Mexicans".  (Example:  until recently, foreigners
could not own property in Mexico.)

Second, Mexico is an overwhelmingly Catholic country; while the
faith of many people may be nominal, it is very culturally Catholic.
A missionary should thus be aware of the basics of the Catholic
faith and the ways in which these are expressed by Mexican culture.

Personally, I would encourage missionaries to work with the local
Catholic Church.  You are not preaching to the heathen, you are
recalling Christians to a deeper life of faith.  Also, this has
the advantage of providing a stable structure for the locals once
you have returned to the States.  [A similar argument would apply
to missionaries going to Eastern Europe and the former Soviet
Union.  Indeed, the patriarchs of the Eastern Churches have recently
issued a joint statement denoucning "poaching" by protestant
fundamentalists and Roman Catholics :-( in these areas.]

Yours in Christ,

David Cruz-Uribe, SFO
From: JEFF@wvnvm.wvnet.edu (Jeff Brooks)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: What can Catholics it on Good Friday?
Date: 13 Apr 92 06:05:16 GMT

Jesus said, not "If you fast" but "WHEN you fast."  As early as the
first or second century, documents like the Didache, or Teaching of
the Twelve Apostles, direct that all Christians should fast on Wednesday
and Friday.  Fasting on these two days has a continuous tradition in
the Christian Church from that time to this.  Also, fasting on Friday
was linked very explicitly and early with contrition and the Lord's
passion and death.

As for abstaining from specific foods: we have the texts of very
early canons (church laws) from the 3rd century or so that direct
that any bishop, priest or deacon who abstains from meat or wine,
"not out of contrition or humility but out of contempt for the
good things created by God", is to be STRIPPED OF ALL OFFICE IN
THE CHURCH, and ejected entirely if he does not repent.  Furthermore,
clergy were REQUIRED in some areas to eat meat on Sundays, to show
that they did not hold to one of the heretical schools that taught
that certain created things were innately evil.  (My references for
the canons involved are in Charles Williams' _The Day of the Dove_,
a history of the Holy Spirit in the church.)

So it seems to me that the Church has always called for certain
kinds of fasting, to show that NO THING is so important that we
cannot do without it for a little while, I don't think it can be
accused of teaching that God's creation is to be despised -- which
the view that the next verse in Tim. attributes to the heretical
teachers in question.

   Jeff

[I believe that's "The Descent of the Dove".  --clh]
From: portland!tom@tredysvr.tredydev.unisys.com (Tom Albrecht)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Sin
Date: 7 Apr 92 02:56:33 GMT
Organization: Unisys - Applied Technology

In article <Apr.3.02.36.15.1992.6128@dartagnan.rutgers.edu> gotzel@triton.unm.edu (Paul Gotzel) writes:
>Could someone please give me a definition of sin?

Sin is any want of conformity unto, or transgression of the law of God.

			- Westminster Shorter Catechism.



-- 
Tom Albrecht