From: cl056@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Hamaza H. Salah)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.arabic
Subject: Re: Jews and Ozir (Was Re: What is H a m a s ??)
Date: 25 Jan 1993 14:29:22 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: cl056@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Hamaza H. Salah)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu



Shaul Wallach <F66204@BARILVM.BITNET> writes:

>    Hamza's post arrived here after I posted my last reply to
>his previous post. Accordingly I apologize for any repetition,
>and also for some deletions to keep things to a reasonable
>length.

>    In this post I am quoting from A. Guillaume's translation of
>Ibn Hisham's edition of Ibn Ishaq's "Sirat Rasul Allah" ("The Life
>of Muhammad", Oxford University Press, Karachi, 1955). The page numbers
>are given both for the received (Arabic) text of Wuestenfeld (1858-60)
>and Guillaume's translation. The page numbers of the former are
>printed in the margin of the latter.

>>In article <1j7chlINNrqp@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>, cl056@cleveland.Freenet.Edu
>>(Hamaza H. Salah) writes:

>>From: Shaul Wallach <F66204@BARILVM.BITNET>
>>
>>>    There is no record from before Islam that they said it. If any
>>>did, then they were sectarians and their sayings were not recorded in
>>>Jewish sources. Al-Baydhawi hints at this when he comments on Al-Tawba 30:
>>>"Innama qawluhu ba`dhuhum min mutaqaddamihim aw miman kanu bil-Madina"
>>>("Only some of them from among their ancestors or among those who
>>>were in Madina said it"; please correct my translation if I'm wrong).
>>>Both Youssef Ali and Sale explain this as referring to a Jewish sect.
>>
>>Let me first quote Al-Tawba 30
>>"And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the
>>Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the
>>words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who
>>disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned
>>away!"
>>
>>  ...
>>
>>This verse doen't mention any refrence to Madina or ancestors.
>>It is clearly stating that When Jews said "ozir is the son of God"
>>they didn't mean, anything else but God has a son.  ...

>    I found `Uzayr mentioned by Ibn Ishaq in two contexts. The first
>was in a disputation between Muhammad and the Quraysh, where the
>latter told Muhammad, "We worship the angels; the Jews worship
>`Uzayr; and the Christians worship Jesus Son of Mary" (Ibn Hisham
>p. 236, Guillaume p. 163). The second was in Madina, where a
>group of Jews came to him and said, "How can we follow you when
>you have abandoned our Qibla and you do not allege that `Uzayr is
>the son of God?" So God sent down concerning these words: 'The
>Jews say that `Uzayr is the son of God ...'" (Sura 9.30) (Ibn Hisham
>pp. 398-9, Guillaume p. 269). Again, if these accounts of the Jews
>were literally correct then these Jews were obviously heretical.

That is really what I tried to point out earlier, that is jews
in the past did say and jews at the time of the prophet did not
deny it, but nowdays jews do deny it.

And it looks I was correct now that is you misquoted Ibn Hisham
in your previous message.

>>>>According to islam, when Ozir came back to jews after 100 years from his
>>>>death and recited the Torah with no mistakes and had some other miracles,
>>>>jews at the time were stunned by him and said that he does that because he
>>>>is the son of God.
>>
>>>    Western scholars trace this to the apocryphal IV Ezra 14 (in 2 Esdras),
>>>which tells how Ezra restored the 24 books of the Hebrew Bible plus 70
>>>additional apocryphal books. But this source does not refer to Ezra as
>>>the son of God either. See the Encyclopedia Judaica (under Ezra) and
>>>Brill's Encylopedia of Islam (under Uzair) for other Islamic stories
>>>about Ezra.
>>
>>There are two version of the story.  One that muslim scholars record and
>>other non-muslim (western) ones.

>    Can you give me a source for the latter?

 Try Tafseer Ibn Katheer and Qurtobi.

>>>    In this context the claim of the Jews in Al-Ma'ida 20 that they
>>>are "sons of Allah" has its parallel in Deuteronomy 14:1.
>>>     (exegis deleted)
>>>                          It was a literal interpretation of this
>>>verse by the Christians which formed part of the latters'
>>>deviation from pure monotheism and set their theology apart
>>>from that of Judaism.
>>
>>Al-Maida 20 says:   (verse deleted)
>>
>>I just can't find any reference to the jews here being "sons of Allah."

>     The verse you quoted is verse 22 in our copy of Yusuf Ali's
                              ^^^^^^^^
>translation ("The Holy Qur-an: Text, Translation & Commentary" by
>Abdullah Yusuf Ali, Sh. Muhammad Ashraf, Lahore, Pakistan, 1974) on
>p. 248. The verse I quoted is two verses before (p. 247) and opens in
>Arabic: "Waqalat il-Yahudu wan-Nasara naHnu abna'ullahi wa'aHibba'uhu".

I think you are here misquoting the quran.  When you quote a verse
from the quran, you don't quote it from Yusuf Ali Commentary.  You
quote it directly by giving its verse number. Verse 22 of what.  Al-Maida 
20 and 22 say something different.

Please don't try to put a random verse number of yours.  Just to make
it easy on you, it is verse 18 of Al-Maidah.

>    Yusuf Ali comments on this verse (note 718): "If used figuratively,
>these and like words refer to the love of God. Unfortunately, "son"
>used in a physical sense or "beloved" in an exclusive sense as if
>God loved only the Jews, makes a mockery of religion." 

Would you do yourself and myself a favor and see what Yusuf Ali said
about verse 30 of Al-tawbah?  See for yourself "son" here and there
means two different things.  Please don't ignore this one.

>As I explained
>above, the Torah never uses "son" in this context in a physical
>sense. As for the exclusivity, the Psalmist declares (Psalms 144:9):
>"The Lord is good to all, and His compassion is upon all His
>creatures." The Mishna also declares that the pious of all nations
>have a share in the World to Come.

That is what I said initially.  It depends on the context.  Here
son means not a legitimate son, rather beloved.  In verse 30 of
Al-tawbah, it means jews said God has a son, and christians said
God has a son.

>>>     What I wrote above does not imply that the Jews helped Muhammad.
>>>It just means that the latter may have heard about Ezra from the Jews,
>>>possibly sectarian Jews as I explained above. Obviously he had contacts
>>>with them, as we know from the Quran and the Muslim historians.
              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>
>>Would you explain how such contacts were established?

>    Mainly in Madina, where Muhammad had very close contact with
>them. Above I quoted Ibn Ishaq who reports on the Jews there who told
>Muhammad about `Uzayr, although he had already heard about them
>from the Quraysh in Mecca.

Here you are not quoting Quran nor Muslim Historians.  It is your
judgement.

>>                                                       Where in
>>quran such contacts are mentioned?

>     In the first 100 verses of Surat al-Baqara.

Not really.  These versest don't tell that Mohammed has contacts and his
contactees were telling him things about judasim, rather it talks about
jews and their past.  It doesn't mention jews told it to him or some
sectarians did.  It just gives fact about jews, in which we believe
it was all revealed by the Allah to his Prophet.

>>                                    Or who are the muslim historians
>>you're refering to?

>     Ibn Ishaq says (Ibn Hisham p. 363, Guillaume p. 247): "The first
>hundred verses of the Sura of the Cow came down in reference to these
>Jewish rabbis and the hypocrites of the Aus and Khazraj, according to
>what I have been told, and God knows best."

Agreed, but it doesn't tell where Muhammed(pbuh) got the
answers from, other than revelation from God?

[.... Other stuff was deleted ....]
I will try to verify every thing mentioned and quoted at some
other time.  If there is too much misquoting as it looked to
be the way so far.  I will pull out of this thread for lack
of honesty.  I hope this won't be the case.

>>>   (description of Orthodox Jews in Israel deleted)
>>
>>I really don't deny what you say here.  And Quran has good verses
>>about some jews who obey God's commands.  It says in one of them,
>>"And some of these jews are believers, but the majority are not."
>>What you indicated in your previous post is that the majority
>>of jews don't obey God's words.  Plus having some miniority who do
>>doesn't stop God's punishment.  I hope you agree.

>     This is not quite so simple. Our Torah tells how Abraham (A"S)
>prayed for Sodom and Gemorrah even though most of the people
>there were wicked, and that God agreed to spare the cities even
>if there had been no more than 10 righteous men in them (Genesis
>18). As Jews we are very careful about passing judgment on our
>generation. Allah knows best.

If that is the case, why then God is and had been punishing all jews
despite of having number of them that are good.  

In quran, good minority doesn't uphold punishment for the sinful
majority.  It showed us example of how Noah people were all 
sunk because they didn't obey God's word.  It showed us how the 
village of Lut, people of sodomy, devistated because of their
practices.  It showed us why jews got lost for 40 years because
the sined.  And so many others...

Please give me more time to look up what you qouted above on
Genisis 18.
-- 
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