From: cole@farmhand.rtp.dg.com (Bill Cole)
Subject: Re: Regulations
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 92 19:44:43 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Data General Corporation, Research Triangle Park, NC

Jason W Solinsky replies to Bill Cole:
|> |> Take the fire in Hamlet, NC.  Nobody was
|> |> forced to work there.  But people did because it was the only job in town.  There
|> |> was no market pressure to change anything.  PEOPLE NEED JOBS.
|> 
|> The people saw how the building was laid out BEFORE taking the job. Besides, it
|> is unnatural for people to be forced to stay in a town where there is only one
|> method of subsistence and not be able to move. Chances are that regulations were
|> created to allow that sort of situation to develop. Laws which restrict
|> everybody's freedom, to allow them to crowd together more. Every town that I know
|> of has them.

You're flailing here.  The plant in Hamlet was essentially unregulated -- they had no
business license and had not been inspected in the eleven years in which they were in
business.  The doors were closed and locked after many of the people had gone to work
in the company.

|> |> |> 1) People don't buy cars that break down.
|> |> 
|> |> If you really believe this, you're too inexperienced to be out alone.  Jaguar made
|> |> atrocious cars for some years but people bought them and loved them (not enough
|> |> people, though).  All the American manufacturers made lousy cars for some time.
|> |> The Audi Fox was so bad you had to buy two (one for spare parts).
|> 
|> This decreases the value of those cars, and causes the manufacturers to go out of
|> business, of shape up. The figures on the breakdowns in the American automotive
|> industry over the last 10 years show that very vividly (I say them last night).
|> Today they are at the levels of the Japanese, but recently they were 2.5 TIMES
|> that of their Japaneese competitors. You'd better believe they got the message
|> from their cah flow and not from the government.

What's the point?  I bought a lousy car and now I can't unload it?  That'll make me
mad and if I have the chance I won't buy another one.  Or maybe I'll assume that I
got the one lemon in the batch.  Or maybe my dealer worked with me and got the car
straightened out and it's a honey that I'll drive forever (my Nissan had 223k miles
before some drunk took it off the road, my Ford truck has ~200k miles).

|> |> |> 2) It is part of the implied warranty when you buy a car that there are no
|> |> |> intrinsic design flaws that would cause cars to always break down.
|> |>
|> |> And for years manufacturers got away with building and selling flawed products because
|> |> the government and the courts didn't realize that there was any implied contract.
|> 
|> Show me evidence of this.

Up until the 1930's caveat emptor was the rule throughout the land.  If I bought rancid meat
or a bottle of 98 aspirins (labeled to contain 100) or a wagon that lost its wheels after I
left the lot, it was my problem.  The literature of the times are littered with examples.

|> |> |> 3) The workers were fired because it was not economical to continue employing them
|> |> 
|> |> Okay, so finish the thought.  Why/How did the workers become uneconomical?  Was it
|> |> their fault or the fault of the management (who kept their jobs)?
|> 
|> The management. Apparently the CEO didn't earn his keep. I would expect that 5
|> years from now, all of the big three have different CEOs from this past year.
|> Boards don't like loosing money.

In the meantime, the workers are not working, have lost their pensions and may be homeless.
It wasn't their fault.  The CEO jumps out with a golden parachute and lands in another company
to work his or her magic there as well.  Boards may not like losing (or loosing either) money
but they find it convenient to find other scapegoats.

|> |> |> 4) If there were no business regulations, no money would have been spent on
|> |> |> pushing for and against legislation.
|> |> 
|> |> There would be no money spent to get rid of regulation; there would be lots of money
|> |> spent seeking regulation.
|> 
|> If no new legislation was made, people would give up trying to get it.

We could argue this forever.

|> |> |> 5) The high salaries commanded by top executives are economically sound. A single
|> |> |> executive decision often alters the companies profits by more than the CEO gets
|> |> |> paid in an entire year. Given the relatively low costs (a couple of million is
|> |> |> nothing) versus the potential gain (Billions [at least in GM's case]) it is a
|> |> |> good decision for the board to make.
|> |> 
|> |> That's true enough.  But explain bonuses in years with massive losses.  Executive
|> |> compensation is not tied to performance or relative worth.  Nobody believes that
|> |> and you won't find enough people who would to overpopulate a phone booth.
|>  
|> The boards always react and the CEO usually feels it. Recent history has shown
|> that the turn around time is about 3 years.

See the comment above.  CEOs are usually the least affected people in any reorganization
or restructuring or re-engineering or downsizing.

|> |> Credit bureaus routinely take mis-information and pass
|> |> it along without attribution and without your knowledge.  Your neighbor can tell
|> |> them that you come home roaring drunk several nights a week and that gets put in
|> |> your credit history.  If it's not true, you have to prove it.
|> 
|> If the companies who recieve the information, are led to believe that it is
|> inaccurate, they will stop using that credit information company and use another.
|> With better information they will make more money.

There's no quality check, Jason.  How in the world do they know that?  If the credit
bureaus are accurate within statistical error for the 'big picture', that's okay but it
sure isn't if you're the one slandered.

|> |> If that were true, we'd all be better off.  The fact is that some industries can
|> |> produce shoddy products because the cost of entry is too high for the entrepreneur
|> |> to fill a niche.
|> 
|> That's something that has to be looked at on a case by case basis. I think we've
|> looked at quite a few already

I don't remember it, but I'll accept your word.  Let's see, all the new steel companies,
the new auto companies, the computer manufacturers, the new semiconductor makers........

|> |> |> despite "deregulation" is still completely controlled by the
|> |> |> government.
|> |> 
|> |> You're half right.  Please provide evidence of your argument.
|> 
|> There are thousands and thousands of laws governing the flight saftey, airport
|> operations, and even the buying of tickets (that last one of which is the worst
|> crime of all). I don't think there is any industry with more laws. Even ones
|> which are controlled by the government. We can't take a good look at airlines,
|> until they are operated independently of regulation.

That's a long way from 'completely' controlled.

|> |> |> Less regulation is BY DEFINITION MORE FREEDOM. The fact that people get killed by
|> |> |> freedom does not change this fundamental truth.
|> |> 
|> |> More twaddle.  Government regulation isn't the only regulation we deal with.  Our
|> |> employers regulate us, our schools, our spouses, our modes of transportation, our
|> |> locations.  In fact, we're as free as we choose to be.
|> 
|> That's right, but the government is deifferent in one key way WE CAN"T CHANGE
|> GOVERNMENTS IF WE DON'T LIKE WHAT THEY ARE DOING. We can't say, OK I'm fed up
|> with this government. It can take away the benefits of welfare, madicare, social
|> security, roads, ect. and I'll stop baying taxes. We don't have that option.

To use libertarian phrases, people don't have to live here.  We can't change governmental
systems if we don't like what we've got.  Less regulation may be more freedom in an ideal
world, but we don't have that.  We have greed, lawyers, lust, lawyers, bureaucrats, lawyers,
hate-mongers, laywers and all manner of evil that men and women do.  Now, if we could get
rid of the lawyers and the pettifogging officials (elected and non-)..........

/Bill
To do right, love kindness & walk humbly