HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: tim@hoptoad.uucp (Tim Maroney)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Jesus was a pagan and lonely wiccians
Date: 13 Apr 92 19:17:07 GMT
Reply-To: tim@hoptoad.UUCP (Tim Maroney)
Organization: The Systematic Destruction of All Fixed Ideas

In article <1992Apr12.052434.21230@nic.umass.edu>
S7041551@deimos.ucc.umass.edu (Lew Stead) writes:
>Jesus was a Jew.  He, being part of the Jewish Tradition, was a monotheist.
>He was not a Pagan in any way shape or form.  While some of his social ideas
>certainly are in line with many of the social ideas of todays Pagans (and
>many are NOT), the same could be said of any religion or philosophy.

It's quite obvious from any unbiased study of the religions that
Christianity had more than a little to do with the Attis cult.  I have
yet to see anyone devoid of intrinsic pro-Christian bias argue against
this point.  (The statements of those who are personally committed to a
pro-revelatory and anti-pagan interpretation of the meaning of
Christianity can safely be ignored; at some level they always devolve
into a semi-hysterical denial of obvious points of similarity and
contact.)

>If you look at his religious teachings, there's no mention of any sort of
>polytheism, feminine divinity, or anything else Pagan.  It's just a few bits
>of "be nice to one another" stuff that resonates with us -- and we don't have
>a monopoly on being nice.

Talk about your selective readings!  This view of the character of the
teachings of Jesus is a media myth.  Anyone actually going to the
Gospels and reading the words attributed to Jesus discovers
vengefulness and sex-hatred in _at_least_ equal measure to statements
about niceness and mutual respect.  Niceness was only for those who
accepted the word of the Son of God; the rest would burn forever in
the next life and demanded shunning in this one.
-- 
Tim Maroney, Communications and User Interface Engineer
{apple!sun}!hoptoad!tim, tim@toad.com

"What's the ugliest part of your body?
 Some say your nose, some say your toes,
 But I think it's your mind."
-- Frank Zappa
From: cortese@hepxvt.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Hair etc.
Date: 6 Apr 92 23:47:13 GMT
Organization: University of California, Irvine

In article <1992Apr02.163410.2689@demon.co.uk> Leo Smith <shaman@cix.compulink.co.uk> writes:
>...what is the function of hair - long hair...
>
>... to act as a way of distributing the body scents?
>
>If so combing it will bring out all the nice new fresh ones.
>
>I don't think the association of hair and sex magic is a coincidence
>either: I think you don't need to look much beyond pheronomes (have I
>got that right?) for the link....
>
>Maybe hair also plays some further role in subliminal communication
>as well.

There's at least a bezillion theories as to why we still have
body hair in places like our armpits and nether regions.  The
pheromone bit plays a large part in these.

There are also a bunch of theories with which I disgree about
why we have such prolifically-growing head hair.  Lots of (male)
anthropologists say it's *SEXUAL*.  (5th century Chinese men probably
said the same thing about deformed feet, and anthropologists
who should know better nowadays have said that about breasts(!) if you
can believe it!)  The ACTUAL answer (I'm not humble about this one) is
far more obvious.

Have you ever seen a bald man after he's done jogging?  The air above
his head is actually WAVERING from loss of heat.  There are just tons of
little veins and arteries all over your scalp; that's why scalp wounds
bleed like pigs.  And when there are that many blood vessels that close
to the surface, they give off a lot of heat.  Bald men and men losing
their hair have to wear hats even when it's not too cold out back home,
because they lose so much body heat when it's even just nippy, more if
there's a breeze.  Head hair acts as an insulation from loss of body
heat from the head, the part of the body most fully and reliably
supplied with LOTS AND LOTS of blood, aside of course from the heart,
which is buried deeply enough in the body for heat loss not to be a
problem.  

It isn't really needed for trapping body odors; your head just doesn't
stink as much as the other hairy bits do.  It also grows MUCH more
prolifically, and doesn't stop at a relatively fixed length like other
body hair does (I KNOW it keeps on growing, but it does do so slowly).

Sounds good to me!

Blessings,
Janis
From: rmr@acsu.buffalo.edu (Richard M. Romanowski)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Seeking Polish Witches
Date: 14 Apr 92 20:42:18 GMT
Organization: UB

Yeah, it really sucks nowadays, with most of the old places burnt and
chopped, most of the old ways forgotten.  But I'm going to Poland this
summer to study the language and culture -- if you want anything specific
researched, post it or mail me.

	I had to break with the Old Ways myself because the Catholicism
had gotten too thick to see the trees.  But I find that an essentially
Hermetic outlook works, and many of my ancestors were Hermetics who 
came from a Polish culture -- so I attain on Hermetic lines and welcome
the old "contacts" if and when they happen to reawaken.

Luck
Rick
From: mlbst25+@pitt.edu (Monica L Boyle)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: New Age/Christian Survey -Help!-specifically the responses to the 
            Catholicism question
Date: 16 Apr 92 17:40:32 GMT
Organization: University of Pittsburgh

Okay, I've had enough.
I began reading this newsgroup just for more information on the pagan movement.
I was raised Catholic and I am quite proudly now an atheist.
I do however want to clarify a little misunderstanding that many people seem
to have concerning Catholicism.
It has changed in the last two decades.  The Vatican II conference established
that the church will follow the existentialist line.
The church has no right to decide for its followers anything not dealing with
religion.  The few scattered incidences of people that are pro-choice being
"refused" communion have been looked down upon.
Pope John Paul II is a conservative, but he can't change the fact that he may
only speak with authority when he is talking about religion, and that
Catholics may not question him only when he is speaking "ex cathedra", which
has only been done twice, and in reference to Mary.

Don't call its followers a bunch of sheep, it just isn't true.  If anything, 
the particular training that Catholic schools give to their students help
the students to think for themselves, for it doesn't slam down any ideas
as wrong or irreverent anymore. I am a product of one of the first classes
of Catholic school alumni that taught under the revised doctrine after
Vatican II and the majority of my class now calls itself agnostic at least.
And about the money...this will probably be argued as irrelevent, but I the 
money that a specific parish receives is from only within it.  The diocese
gets no money from Rome.  The majority of Rome's money does stay there, though
some of it will go to Latin American and African missions.

Again, I will not try to defend the church's homophobic, chauvenistic 
practices, for they are going to be the down fall of the church.  I just
wanted to clear up the matter of whether or not the followers were sheep (not
at all) and whether or not the leaders were money hungry (only in Rome).

Monica Boyle
mlbst25+@pitt.edu
mlbst25@pittvms
From: krikket@meltdown.chi.il.us (Doug Krick)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: THANKS!!!!  (Ref: Pagan Psychologist Needed)
Date: 14 Apr 92 15:33:10 GMT
Organization: The Meltdown - A Team Star BBS

As many of you remember, a short while ago I posted a message asking for help
in finding a pagan psychologist in the Chicagoland area...

I've been given a LOT of help on this one.  (From everywhere from California,
to the UK)  I just wish to say THANKS for all of the replies!  Everyone has
helped out tremendously!  I thought I should give one update though...  The
person who is in need of the psych is out of the immediate danger zone...

Once again, thanks for all of the help that has been thrown my way!

Krikket  --  a.k.a. Doug Krick  --  krikket@meltdown.chi.il.us   

Supercalifragilisticsadomasochisim   !   Disclaimers?  We don't need no
   -- Need I say anything else?      !   stinkin' discalimers!
From: lung@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Terence Lung)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Worship of the Greek gods
Date: 6 Apr 92 16:10:58 GMT
Reply-To: lung@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Terence Lung)
Distribution: usa
Organization: Carderock Division, NSWC, Bethesda, MD

What does this newsgroup have to do with the worship of 
Greek Gods?
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Are there Pagan Atheists?
From: ursulus@status.gen.nz (malcolm fletcher)
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 92 20:18:28 GMT
Organization: Z*NET International News Gateway in Auckland New Zealand


I would also call myself a pagan atheist, I don't believe in separate 
Gods/Goddesses or little Godlets, but believe in much that seems pagan! 
Although as to the explanation of WhitchCraft, I don't really know where 
this stands in relation to paganism, I would like to know where Witches 
think they get their power, is it from the earth mother/ or ?

I don't know that much about paganism, but much that I've heard fits my 
personal view and would like to know more, please help.

Thanking you'all

Ursulus
AKA Malcolm Fletcher
From: heath@athena.cs.uga.edu (Terrance Heath)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Jesus was a pagan and lonely wiccians
Date: 17 Apr 92 14:28:04 GMT
Organization: University of Georgia, Athens

In article <20151@castle.ed.ac.uk> egnr76@castle.ed.ac.uk (A Kashko) writes:
>In article <1992Apr12.052434.21230@nic.umass.edu> S7041551@deimos.ucc.umass.edu (Lew Stead) writes:
>
>	1) You may find mention of feminine divinity, or even polytheism, in the
>gnostic gospels, which also claim to record Jesus' life. It's a long time since 
>I read them: try Pagel's translation/commentary.
>

I would suggest getting a copy of the "Nag Hammadi LIbrary.  There is a particular writing in which a female divinity is speaking.  I cannot remember the exact title of the peice, but it included the word "thunder".  I hope that helps.
From: edberg@zodiac.rutgers.edu
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Spring Fever and other problems
Date: 7 Apr 92 15:04:41 GMT
Organization: Rutgers University Computing Services

Spring is here, and we have begun to have SGD (Seasonal Giddiness Disorder)

Along with the ever popular Office Swivel Chair Circle Casting Method,
we have been plagued by:
The use of alternative elemental symbols (Helium balloons, water pistols,
	sparklers, real mud pies) (water pistols make blessing more fun)
Random outbreaks of giggles and practical jokes.
Pez
Silly Putty
Soap bubbles.
The soap bubbles are great, because in order to get the really big
ones, you have to breathe very fully, but gently. And then you can try to
blow bubbles inside them, or send them to the neighbor's dog. 

-Lisa
From: cortese@hepxvt.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
Subject: Re: alt.pagan survey
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: 13 Apr 92 23:29:54 GMT

In article <kuk5koINNldk@exodus.Eng.Sun.COM> emarsh@hernes-sun.Eng.Sun.COM (Eric Marsh) writes:
>In article <1992Apr10.225821.1332@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com> billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson) writes:
>>emarsh@hernes-sun.Eng.Sun.COM (Eric Marsh) writes:
>>
>>: >What does a person's religion have to do with whether they are a pagan
>>: >or neo-pagan anyway?
>>: 
>>: Well, if you go by my dictionary and pagan == !judeo-christian-(islamic?)
>>: then religion does have a significant factor in determining whether
>>: one is pagan or not.
>
>>Yes and no. As you yourself posted, a person could be an atheist and still
>>be pagan. As such - religion is not involved. Also, why couldn't a person
>>be Judaic, Christian or Islamic and still be pagan? What do you call a  
>>person who practices the Christian faith but also practices Witchcraft,
>>for example? Or an Islamic person who also believes in other gods?
>
>As I understand them, Judism/Christianity/Islam are exclusive sets.
>These religions proscribe that an adherant does not behave in the
>manners that you have described.
>

This entire discussion could be resolved if we would just define what we
mean by "religion."  Is religion "belief in a personalized deity?"  Is
it "a spirituality?"  A "philosophy?"  And, truly, what the hell is the
difference between all these things?  No, you do not need to believe in
or worship anything to be a Pagan; witness me.  

Define what you both mean by religion, and the debate will resolve itself.

Blessings,
Janis
From: dionysia@netlink.cts.com (Dionysia Marqueza)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: celtic somthingorother
Date: 12 Apr 92 12:41:10 GMT
Article-I.D.: netlink.BRB5iB4w164w
Organization: NetLink Online Communications, San Diego CA

dug@athena.cs.uga.edu (Douglas Brown) writes:

> Someone the other day made the statement that the mediterranean cultures
> had no contact with the celts.
> 
> The word "celt" comes from greek, apparrently.  There has been a fairly 
> interesting thread in soc.culture.celtic recently about its origin.
> Remember, at one point most of Northern Europe was populated by celts.
> So yes, the mediterranean regions had dealings with them.  Did IRISH
> and SCOTTISH myths inspire the story of Christ? No way.
> 
> dug.y

        In that the northwest reach of Spain and Portugal were once 
populated by the Galicians, a people of the celtic language group, and that 
these (and other) Iberian peoples were known as Celtiberians by the Romans, 
I would say that the classical word knew of the celts. Likewise, the Bretons 
made their way across a goodly portion of France, into Provence, and 
possible as far as the Pyrenees.

        Dionysia (of celtiberian descent, herself)

--                    
INTERNET:  dionysia@netlink.cts.com (Dionysia Marqueza)
UUCP:   ...!nosc!ryptyde!netlink!dionysia
NetLink Online Communications * Public Access in San Diego, CA (619) 435-6181
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: ssample1@cc.swarthmore.edu (Stephen and Roo)
Subject: Taize
Organization: Swarthmore College
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1992 00:24:10 GMT


I haven't seen any replies to the thread asking about Taize. If anyone has posted one which just hasn't shown up here yet, my apologies for wasting bandwidth.

	    Lessee. Where to start. Taize is an ecumenical Christian monastic community in France. They do neat music. It's still kinda fringy in the States, more accepted in (the Christian segments of) the rest of the world.
     The order was founded after WWII. Physical work is a big part of life there. So is poverty. So is silence. Their worship (or their designated worship, at least: weeding the garden can be worship too) involves lots of silence, candles, and neat Latin chants. They use Latin because the brothers are from all over and it was the only language that none of them spoke, and hence the only one that would give none of them an advantage over the others. The ritual is much richer than in most Christian churches 



because they use many of the ritual elements from P, RC, and EO Christianity. Neat ikons. Not much incense (lucky for me: I'm allergic). Mostly silent prayer. Belief less important than behaviour. Some elements of Gnosticism (they're trying to reconcile all of Christianity, after all). They do the week before Easter every week. Without the fertility symbols. They're pretty cool, IMFCO. Very little dogma.
     

Does this answer the appropriate questions?
-Stephen
From: dancer@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Donn Chambers)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Amerindian Booklist Help!
Date: 8 Apr 92 16:07:26 GMT
Organization: CyberPagans and Misc. Lost Souls of the South

In article <1992Apr4.073921.28533@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe) writes:
>
>Try _Black Elk Speaks_ and _The Sacred Pipe_.  Both are records of what
>Black Elk, an Ogala Sioux shaman, was willing to tell white people.  _Speaks_
>is his life, and _Pipe_ relates the seven sacred rituals which use the pipe.
>
>              Merry meet, merry part, merry meet again,
>                               Br'anArthur
>
>Wicca is a Green and Fuzzy Religion
>               --Pug and Bran

Both of these are very good books on the subject.  You might also want to
check out _Lame Deer: Seeker of Visions_ (if it is still in print.)  Also,
_Mystic Warriors of the Plains_ is a VERY good book which describes all 
aspects of the culture, not just the mystic part.  I highly recommend all
of these books... of course, since you don't know me, I don't know how 
good this recomendation is...:)

Donn

-- 
*******************************************************************************
SATOR            The creator      | "I once was a dancer, young once like you
AREPO            slow moving      |   though I know I don't look it
TENET             perceives       |  I jumped as high as the sky, I had fire
OPERA           his creations     |   in my eyes, I had legs like a stallion."
ROTAS            as vortices      | -- David & David, "Swallowed by the Cracks"
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson)
Subject: Re: alt.pagan survey
Organization: Hewlett-Parkard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1992 19:53:22 GMT

emarsh@hernes-sun.Eng.Sun.COM (Eric Marsh) writes:


: >18.	Can a person be a neo-pagan and a believer in a monotheistic
: >	religion which claims a male gender for its god?
: 
: No

Ok Eric. Explain your belief. I think that many would disagree with you.
There are even some who call themselves witches who would disagree. Why 
couldn't a pagan/neopagan have a monotheistic god? I know some who have
a monotheistic goddess. Are they not pagan/neopagan?

What does a person's religion have to do with whether they are a pagan
or neo-pagan anyway?

Bill
From: edberg@zodiac.rutgers.edu
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: re:poem
Date: 9 Apr 92 17:01:00 GMT
Organization: Rutgers University Computing Services

Tim-
I really liked your poem.
Here's two of mine:
I have a short attention span, so the poems are, too.


I sit under my friend, the willow
and sing to her of joy and sorrow.
Softly, so softly
She whispers her answering songs.
---------------------------------------------

Though the naiad may call to you
You can not catch her.
Of course she swims better than you
And drowns the unwary in her arms.

-Lisa
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: StarWatcher@uiuc.edu (StarWatcher)
Subject: Re: Are there Pagan Atheists?
Originator: mda46419@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu
Reply-To: StarWatcher@uiuc.edu
Organization: UIUC Department of Actuarial Science (underfunded & proud of it)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1992 20:12:29 GMT

I had planned to lurk around here a bit longer before making by first
post to this group, but this comment is just asking for an answer....

ursulus@status.gen.nz (malcolm fletcher) writes:

***I LIKE IT!!!! as to oppresses in the US, Christianity oppresses everywhere, 
***by it's very nature it seeks to oppress, you can't have an open minded 
***Christian, keep up the GOOD FIGHT!

I beg to differ!  It is true that there are many closed-minded Christians
out and about in the world today.  They are frequently the most vocal
Christians, and (IMHO) tend to be the people that give Christianity
such a bad rap in non-Christian circles.

However (thank Heavens!) there are many more relatively-open minded
Chrisiains out there than you might think.  These are the people
who quietly practice their faith, without "jamming it down the throats
of innocent bystanders" (too often).

I wouldn't mind hearing your opinion about people like me, whose
religious beliefs sit sort of in the middle of the grey area dividing
Christianity from paganism.

I'm sorry, but it just isn't Right to condemn hundreds of millions of
Christians in the world today, simply on the basis of the statements and
actions of a few people who all-too-frequently speak before they think.

Now that I've gotten that off my chest, I think I'll sneak back into my
corner, and lurk for a bit longer.... :-)


-- 
StarWatcher (was MemphisTN on irc)                         StarWatcher@uiuc.edu

There really is a cute bit o' wisdom and your standard signature virus here;
I just haven't chosen to make them visible yet.
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: lung@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Terence Lung)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Jesus was a pagan and lonely wiccians
Date: 9 Apr 92 16:07:47 GMT
Reply-To: lung@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Terence Lung)
Organization: Carderock Division, NSWC, Bethesda, MD

Here is the first of five questions from nc313127@wvnvms.wvnet.edu:
	>1) I have heard that Jesus Christ was originally a Celtic Myth (maybe 
	>about Merlin) that was perverted-i mean modified- by the Mediteranian
	>culture(s) for some reason.  Does anyone have any facts, speculation,
	>or ideas?
I have some ideas for this one.  Whether they are facts or not is debatable.
I also have some date questions for anyone who can answer them.

OK.  Here are the ideas:  the Jesus Christ story existed as early
as the Hebrew prophecies (which it fulfilled) of probably around 1451 B.C. 
The Messianic hope began as early as these prophecies were recorded.

Here are the date questions:  what are the dates attributed to the
Celtic Myths, Story of Osiris, the Attic myth of Greece, Dionysus,
etc?

Terence
From: nc313127@wvnvms.wvnet.edu
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Jesus was a pagan and lonely wiccians
Date: 8 Apr 92 22:20:27 GMT
Organization: West Virginia Network for Educational Telecomputing

I got some questions.(I can here you all panicing now!)

	1) I have heard that Jesus Christ was originally a Celtic Myth (maybe 
	about Merlin) that was perverted-i mean modified- by the Mediteranian
	culture(s) for some reason.  Does anyone have any facts, speculation,
	or ideas?

	2) I have been reading "LLyweLLens(sp?) Guide for the Individual
	Wiccan."  Now its say that their are a Goddess and a God(no mention 
	of Horned or not) and that it doesn't matter what you name them.
	I cam deal with that, But I does not mention any Child( like the Sun
	Child) in the book.  Other books I read have mentioned Him in various
	form, but I am not sure where he fits in the plan.  Is he important
	or nessecary to Wicca?  I feel he should be because many religions
	have a Son god.  I would welcome your opinions and knowlege.

	3) Any opinions on this book(above)?  Are there any better books I
	should read?

	4) What is a good source of Druid/Celtic history and mythos?

	5) Anyone know anything about the Land Of Summer Twilight?





	
Newsgroups: alt.pagan