From: jbrown@doc.bmd.trw.com
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Crusades?  Again??  was Re: Why do I post here?
Date: 24 Jul 92 08:58:07 MST

In article <graham.711863771@galois>, graham@maths.su.oz.au (Graham Matthews) writes:
> Someone:
>>Christainity appears, in this context to be a large parasitic meme,
>>taking much but returning little.
> 
> jbrown@doc.bmd.trw.com writes:
>>    Opinion.  And not a very valid one at that.  Many hospitals have
>>    been built by Christian denominations.  Many colleges and
>>    universities have been started and supported by churches.
>>    Even the American Red Cross was started by a Christian woman.
>>    Christianity has made significant contributions to health and
>>    education.	There are few other philosophies/religions which
>>    have done as much charity work as Christianity in an organized
>>    and systemized fashion.  Individuals of certain philosophies/
>>    religions may feel led to charitable work, but it is often
>>    an individual decision, and not a cooperatively organized
>>    effort within the political structure of the philosophy/religion,
>>    indeed, if it even has a coherent political structure.
> 
> When I read this I laughed myself silly. When someone brings up the
> Crusades jbrown says "that was real Christians doing all those horrible
> things". And now above "jbrown" says "look at all the good things
> done by christianity". Why is it jbrown that you are prepared to take
> the credit for the good things but not the shit for the bad things done
> in the name of christianity?
> 
> Typical!
> 
> graham
> --

When I read this my first impulse was to blow off your comments as those
of an idiot.  But, then I thought there may be those out there that would
take you seriously.

Before I comment, first a correction.  In your second sentence I'm sure
you meant to quote me as saying "that [it] was NOT real Christians doing
all those horrible things".  You quote does make sense in the context, nor
did I ever hold that the Crusaders were anything but tragically misguided.

I could ask you the same question.  Why are you, Graham, willing to take
credit for all the "good things" that atheists have done (if you can mention
one), but where are you when we speak of the 20 million people massacred by
Stalin, which *more* than outweighs the suffering caused in the Crusades?

This atheistic barbarian killed more people during his Reign of Terror than
even Hitler could have hoped to accomplish.  Yet, you are surprisingly silent
when it comes to taking credit for the tyrannical monster that your
philosophy helped to spawn.

In fact, Stalin was acting more in line with the precepts of atheism and the
ideas of "social evolution" than the Crusaders were acting in line with the
precepts of Christianity (Jesus' teachings).

If I suddenly went berserk and started shooting people from atop a building
"in the name of Buddha", would this make me a Buddhist?  No, for I would not
be acting in accord with the teachings of that faith.  It takes more to be
a "Christian" than merely calling yourself one.  You must take the teachings
of Jesus and the apostles to heart.  One thing that is definitely *not*
taught in the NT is genocide, or "war in the name of God".  War may be
necessary to defend one's home, but wars of conquest are definitely *not*
sanctioned.  That's why no *rational* person could come to the conclusion
that the Crusaders were acting in accord with orthodox Christian teachings 
and beliefs.  Since their actions belie their claim of being "Christian", 
it is their "being Christian" that I seriously doubt.  No doubt they 
*thought* that they were "Christians", but as Matthew 7:23 says "In that
Day there will be those who will say to Me 'Lord! Lord! Didn't we do many
wonderful works in Thy Name?' and I will say to them 'Away from Me, you
workers of iniquity, for I never knew you!'"  (paraphrased)

The Crusaders, for all their "good" intentions, were "workers of iniquity"
from my point of view.  Since Jesus specifically denounces those who do
evil in His name, I cannot see how these so-called "Christians" could ever
seriously be held up as an example of Christianity by any rational person.

Regards,

Jim B.
please send replies & follow-ups to:  Jim_Brown@oz.bmd.trw.com
as I am not able to read a.a. regularly.