HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: stanley@verga.enet.dec.com (Hail Eris)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Singin' Those Apocalypse Blues
Date: 11 Dec 92 16:04:52 GMT
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation


In article <1992Dec11.085746.20463@sobeco.com>, ladislas@sobeco.com (Ladislas A.) writes...
>In <1992Dec10.155541.3868@engage.pko.dec.com> stanley@verga.enet.dec.com (Hair Eris) writes:
> 
> 
>>In article <1992Dec10.010538.26453@u.washington.edu>, grimoire@byron.u.washington.edu (John Greer) writes...
>>>In article <1992Dec8.073706.3492@sobeco.com> ladislas@sobeco.com (Ladislas A.) writes:
>>>>
>I'm not sure to whom you ask the question, but since I joined the debate, I
>might as well give an answer of my own.
> 
>It does make sense to try and preserve what we already have.  The major
>problem is that in order to preserve our civilisation, everyone must
>chip in.  

Why? 

>Even then, we are still faced with something that is difficult to
>deal with: death.  Nothing lasts forever.  Nothing can.  It's the basic law
>of the universe (IMHO).  Some might say that nothing truly dies.  Death is
>merely a transition into another form.

Death has always walked beside us.  What new challenge does that bring us
that we haven't lived with since birth?

>As with everything else, a civilisation is born, evolves and then dies. 
>The best we can hope for is saving its heritage. 
>Ladislas.

Ever notice how the more things change, the more they stay the same?  
Why walk away from them.. why not preserve and protect them?
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe)
Subject: Re: INFO REQUEST: pagan/wiccan communes
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 19:54:22 GMT

cenedra@cedar.circa.ufl.edu writes:

>Well, third times the charm, eh? Seems like my server hasn't been posting
>this to the rest of the world, so if you HAVE seen this before, I apologize.
>  I REALLY need to find this info-can anyone out there PLEASE help me? I
>have a friend who wants info on pagan/wiccan oriented communes. Any helpful
>information that anyone could contribute would be greatly appreciated. Please
>send any info that you might have on this to me via e-mail, as my net access
>is VERY unpredictable. My e-mail address is
>Cenedra@ufcc.ufl.edu
>  Thank you very, very much!!!
>                        Ce'Nedra , the name may be a fairy-tale but         
>                                   the request is serious and URGENT 

How in the name of any God/dess you choose could this be "URGENT"?  Is your
friend gonna have hir right to be a Witch taken away by the Gods if sie
doesn't start living with only pagan-types?  There are very few things in the
universe that are truly URGENT, IMO.

Enjoy the journey!

                      --Br'anArthur

                                      Queer, Peculiar, and Wyrd! :-)

******************************************************************************
"We are secretly replacing the fine quartz crystals this medicine pouch maker
usually uses with Folgers crystals.  Let's see what happens...."
                                      --DACCrowell
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe)
Subject: Re: Grimoir?
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 19:59:13 GMT

mark.terka@rose.com (mark terka) writes:


>Date Entered: 12-13-92 13:21
>I recently came across this translation of an old Grimoir. It sounds like
>a sex magic rite related to Thelema, but I'm not too sure. Anyone else
>familiar with this?

This is a translation of pp. 325-326 of _Magick in Theory in Practice_.

Why am I (the local Crowley-basher) the only person who recognised it?  People
have been talking about how this couldn't be Crowley because he was never this
direct.  But this is Crowley's most famous book.  I don't understand. *sigh*

Enjoy the journey!

                      --Br'anArthur

                                      Queer, Peculiar, and Wyrd! :-)

******************************************************************************
"We are secretly replacing the fine quartz crystals this medicine pouch maker
usually uses with Folgers crystals.  Let's see what happens...."
                                      --DACCrowell
From: Tagi@cup.portal.com (Thyagi Morgoth NagaSiva)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: misc.magick... (FAQ addendum)
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 92 09:51:49 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
  <1992Dec17.122303.2554@dct.ac.uk> <1992Dec19.111530.7915@spider.co.uk>

Peggy mentioned a FAQ addendum including introductions by people who post
here regularly.  I think it is a good idea but don't want to put the
effort into compiling it myself.  I don't think Peggy has the time either
and ask for someone else to take on the job.

Perhaps a newbie who would like to get to know us each very well?

(evil grin) }:I


Thyagi
From: rmr@acsu.buffalo.edu (Richard M. Romanowski)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Chivalry
Date: 15 Dec 92 22:55:57 GMT
Organization: UB


	\Hey kids!

	Thagi mentioned chivalry.  I try to make it a cornerstone of
my existence, so I should be able to tell you all about it.  But I don't
have all the answers, and indeed I doubt my own capacities considerably.
I.E., there seems to be a lot more to chivalry tha what I can imagine,
and yet the lack is palpable.  Am I speaking English>?

	(Rough month.)

	I know quite a few GD folks like Mathers and Crowley liked the
image of Magician as Knight.

	So hey, why not...

	Also, is there a Moslem idea of Chivalry?

	(Nietsche should have said, be careful when you fight Moslems, 
lest you become a Moslem...as any Templar could tell you...)

	Babbling, babbling, babbling.  May i hope for a generous provision
of rubber cores in my old age?  And if so, what is a rubber core?
Some kind of pacifier given to old people to shut them up and keep them from
drooling?  And who can spot the famous occult author who used that very same
term in an apologia given for his Qabalistic work?  Hint:  'and if much 
learning hath made me mad ...' etc.etc. and he goes on to hope for a
bountiful/providential/generous allowance of rubber cores in his old age.

(Making no sense whatsoever)
Luck
(You might need it...)
Rick
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: eddie@hermes.oit.unc.edu (Edward M. Averett)
Subject: Re: books on childbirth customs
Organization: University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 02:06:44 GMT

In article <1992Dec16.165233.7637@wam.umd.edu> angelai@wam.umd.edu (Angela I.) writes:
>Speaking of childbirth, Shava (or Eddie), aren't you supposed to
>become parents sometime soon?  (Or maybe you already did, and I
>missed it...)  
>
Hi.  not yet.  soon.  

oh, and I happily recommend "The Continuum Concept" by Jean Liedloff.  Addison
Wesley publishing. 



Xref: sparky alt.magick:6360 talk.religion.misc:24224
From: Tagi@cup.portal.com (Thyagi Morgoth NagaSiva)
Newsgroups: alt.magick,talk.religion.misc
Subject: Commentary on _Liber I_ (Mysticism)
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 92 14:57:59 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world

9212.18 e.v.


Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
The word of Sin is Restriction.


COMMENTARY ON:

_Liber I: Liber B vel Magi_, by The Master Therion


KEY: [Expansions and bracketed text amidst quote are the commentary.]


"00 [1] One [Unity] is the Magus: [Maker, Creator, Source]
    [2] twain [Duality] His forces: [players: Yin/Yang; Silence/Speech]
    [3] four [Quaternity, God, Earth] His weapons.
                                       [power: Cup, Wand, Disk, Blade]
    [4] These are the seven [universal, maternal] vultures [purifiers]
          of evil. [darkness]
    [5] Thus is the art and craft [creation] of the Magus [Creator]
          but glamour [charm, magick, play]
    [6] How shall He destroy [negate, oppose] Himself?"


Expansions:

1. The Self is All. There is no resistance in the Magus. (Center)
2. The Poles of Duality provide guidance and propulsion. (Circle)
3. The Key to divinity is Nature. (Cross)
4. Liberation may be found here and now.
5. Magick is the play of consciousness.
6. Who am I but Pan?



"0 [1] Yet the Magus [Source] hath power upon [precedes]
         the Mother [Manifestation] both directly [dividing]
         and through Love. [Reunifying, Redeeming]
   [2] And the Magus [Source] is Love, [Reunion]
         and bindeth together [yoke, link]
         This and That [Other/Self, Yin/Yang]
         in His Conjuration." [Oath, Speech, Work, Creation]

Expansions:

1. The Tao is the Mother of the 10,000 things. (Lao Tzu)
2. The Spell of Agape is Unity through binding and release.



"1 [1] In the beginning [with Will] doth the Magus [Orator, God]
         speak Truth, [manifest divinity] and send forth [cast]
         Illusion and Falsehood [the Shadow]
         to enslave the soul. [creating dukkha]
   [2] Yet therein [in Maya] is the Mystery [Secret]
         of Redemption. [Liberation]

Expansions:

1. Karma brins dissatisfaction. (Fall)
2. The everyday mind is the mind of the Buddha. (Christ)


"2 [1] By His Wisdom [extended will] made He the Worlds; [Multiplicity]
   [2] the word that is God [OM, Perfect Liberator]
         is none other than He." [the Self]

Expansions:

1. Divine expression manifests diversity. (Many)
2. Divinity and self are not two. (One)


"3 [1] How shall He end [complete] His speech [manifestation]
         with Silence? [Void]
   [2] For He is Speech." [Logos]


Expansions:

1. The Lotus emerges and retires to the Mud.
2. Speech which remains Silence is Truth.


"4 [1] He is the First [Source, Parent] and the Last. [Manifest, Child]
   [2] How shall He cease to number Himself?" [resolve Multiplicity]

Expansions:

1. All, One and None are but masks of Maya.
2. The play of consciousness resolves itself.



To be continued......


Invoke me under my stars.   Love is the law, love under will.


I am I!


Frater (I) Nigris (666)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: angelai@wam.umd.edu (Angela I.)
Subject: Re: talk.magick
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 01:10:13 GMT

In article <JOSHUA.92Dec16162426@bailey.cpac.washington.edu> joshua@cpac.washington.edu (Joshua Geller) writes:
>
>
>the reason I think a 'mainstream' group should definitely be moderated
>(and the idea of each post needing to circulate between the whole group
>of moderators is a good one) is precisely that the volume of readers,
>and hence the volume of posters, and hence the volume of idiots, is 
>likely to go way up. I would even accept a rule that the first post 
>from *anyone*, regardless of their fatuity quotient, be allowed to
>pass.
Actually, some of us here believe that we have something to learn
from all the "idiots" of the world, including ourselves, including
sometimes, even you, Josh.  :)  I think maybe we could have another
magick group that is along the lines of *.magick.idiots.allowed, and
then the super-flamers just don't have to read that one! :)
(But then again, I guess that might be alot like talk.religion.newage...
yikes, scrap that idea...) :)

>
>>   |> Who will be going there?
>
>>   Everybody. Alt.magick will most likely be disassembled. 
>
>I object to this strenuously.
Actually, I gotta agree with ya on this one.  There may be a lot of
cross-posting, but there will be a distinction between the flavor of 
any two groups, and this one does have value, regardless of anything
new that might be set up...  

>>   |> broaden its perspective slightly?
>
>no! no! no!
>
Well, there is a good & a bad side to the subgroups vs. wider perspective:
subgroups mean that the Wiccan-types & the GD-types hopefully won't
antagonize each other as much (or insert various other groups that have
a tendency to do that), but then again, there's the old celebrate diversity
rule...  There are, unfortunately, precious few magi, witches, etc.
around, and the more factioned we become, the more closed-minded we
may become to the "Other" groups/traditions/etc...

Anyway, my vote is for talk.magick.  

Enjoy the rest of the debate; back into the shadows with me! :)

-- 
**************************  angelai@wam.umd.edu  ****************************
From: oispeggy@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (Peggy Brown)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: MUDs and Reality (Theory, LONG)
Date: 21 Dec 92 01:09:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <71859@cup.portal.com>, Tagi@cup.portal.com (Thyagi Morgoth NagaSiva) writes...
>9212.16 e.v.

A few thoughts on your Mud Theory...

>It has come to my attention that some people hold rather
>tightly to the notion of a 'real world' or 'real life' (RL),
>and that this is often distinguished from places known as MUDs
>or things known as 'virtual worlds'.

I think its preferable that people can tell the difference 
between the two - real life and virtual worlds.  In fact, I'd 
think it was a major deficiency if someone could not.  That is 
not to say that one is "better" than the other.  They're both 
valuable, but different.  Reminds me very much of my experiences 
reading fiction - living inside the books, living inside other 
characters.  What you (later) say about multiple social 
personalities being developed applies to fiction reading also.

>When I first encountered this (in cyberMUDs) something struck me as 
>strange and ill-conceived about it.  How could people be sure what 
>was 'real' and what was 'virtual', especially the better educated 
>of the lot, when philosophers had argued the point for ages and 
>countless mystics had suggested that what we take for 'reality' is a 
>mere reflection, a fragment of the real.

People classify and simplify sensory data to more effectively deal 
with their environment.  When they decide what is real based on 
HOW they interact physically with the environment, then they 
decide real life (RL) is real and virtual worlds are not.  If 
they made the decision based on how they FEEL, then each would be 
real (and unreal) part of the time.

[stuff deleted]

>Drawing on the concepts of the 'worldview' and 'paradigm', the MUD
>both exemplifies (in its cyber forms) and symbolizes (within the
>mystical model herein portrayed) ordinary experience and its relation
>to the real.  May we each use it to move closer to our source and 
>begin to live what can truly be called Real Lives.
> 
>-----------------------------------------
> 
>Books proving inspirational to this essay included:
> 
>Games Theory
>_Finite and Infinite Games_, by James P. Carse, Ballantine, 1986
> 
>Platonism
>_A History of Philosophy: Vol. 1, Part 1, Greece and Rome_,
>   by F. Copleston, S. J., Image Books, 1962
> 
>Modern Scientific Views of Mysticism
>_The Tao of Physics_, by Fritjof Capra, Bantam, 1980
> 
>_The Dancing Wu Li Masters_, by Gary Zukav, Bantam, 1980.
> 
>-----------------------------------------------------------

You might find Flatland interesting.  Its about 2 dimensional 
geometric figures that don't believe in the 3rd dimension until 
they encounter a sphere, which destroys their conception of 
reality.

>9212.16 e.v.
>Thyagi Morgoth NagaSiva
>Tagi@Cup.Portal.Com
>871 Ironwood Dr.
>San Jose, CA 95125-2815

- Peggy -
From: "sonia brock" <sonia.brock@canrem.com>
Subject: widening gyre
Reply-To: "sonia brock" <sonia.brock@canrem.com>
Organization: Canada Remote Systems
Distribution: alt
Date: 17 Dec 92 23:13:19 EST


SM> You might want to read the Pound biography on this. "Gyre" here
SM>could easily be a reference to the vortex idea that the fascists Pound,
SM>Eliot and others were subscribed to and used as a way of defining the
SM>self and the universe. This is fully and modernistically explained in the
SM>Pound biography.

      Thanks, I think ;-}

     The fascist leanings of Pound and Eliot does not mean that everything
     they thought/wrote had a right wing tendency.  Even a stopped clock
     is right twice a day.  Artists and writers in general are often just
     slightly nuts anyways but, thankfully, this does not seem to interfere
     with their inner vision.  Just goes to show you can't trust your logical
     conscious mind much further than you can hurl it.

     I wonder what the political spectrum is in the occult movement,
     and judging by the books available on it it is a movement of one
     sort or another.

Sonia Brock
---
  DeLuxe 1.25 #4202  "When I want your opinion I'll read your entrails"
--
Canada Remote Systems  - Toronto, Ontario
World's Largest PCBOARD System - 416-629-7000/629-7044
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: sfoley@uumeme.chi.il.us (Sean M. Foley)
Subject: Re: Chivalry
Organization: UUMEME Public Access Xenix
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 92 17:39:29 GMT
Summary: fir, glitter, magick? HUH?
Keywords: glitter, chivalry, magickian

In article <BzBp1A.94u@acsu.buffalo.edu> rmr@acsu.buffalo.edu (Richard M. Romanowski) writes:
>
>	\Hey kids!
>
>	Thagi mentioned chivalry.  I try to make it a cornerstone of
>my existence, so I should be able to tell you all about it.  But I don't
>have all the answers, and indeed I doubt my own capacities considerably.
>I.E., there seems to be a lot more to chivalry tha what I can imagine,
>and yet the lack is palpable.  Am I speaking English>?
>
>	(Rough month.)
>
>	I know quite a few GD folks like Mathers and Crowley liked the
>image of Magician as Knight.
>
>	So hey, why not...
>
>	Also, is there a Moslem idea of Chivalry?
>
>	(Nietsche should have said, be careful when you fight Moslems, 
>lest you become a Moslem...as any Templar could tell you...)
>
>	Babbling, babbling, babbling.  May i hope for a generous provision
>of rubber cores in my old age?  And if so, what is a rubber core?
>Some kind of pacifier given to old people to shut them up and keep them from
>drooling?  And who can spot the famous occult author who used that very same
>term in an apologia given for his Qabalistic work?  Hint:  'and if much 
>learning hath made me mad ...' etc.etc. and he goes on to hope for a
>bountiful/providential/generous allowance of rubber cores in his old age.
>
>(Making no sense whatsoever)
>Luck
>(You might need it...)
>Rick
   I don't believe it bad to be "chivlarous"; but in sincerity.. DANGEROUS
  The danger is not in the chivalry itself; but in the attitude one can adopt
from such a view. It seems to point to the "I'm the saver" attitude that the
christians oh-so-wrongfully protrayed in the past. I don't think chivalry
is needed; What is needed is courage.. Chivarly seems to give me a distaste
in my throat as it reiks with no point.. In that end; courage that ends when
there is no current problem.. again, one doesn't need to over-react..(that
is the taste that I was talking about.. chivalry generally refers to people
who are outgoing courageous; over-courage is worse than under-courage.>.

-Sean
(quit trying to solve more problems than you have)

-- 
| sfoley@uumeme.chi.il.us |       I only look like I have a clue.           |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                       Love is the only Law
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: mimir@hardy.u.washington.edu (Al Billings)
Subject: Re: Pentagrams
Organization: The Friends of Loki Society
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 19:12:44 GMT

In article <1992Dec15.145125.18326@shearson.com> scarrobi@shearson.com writes:
>well the main reason the inverted a pentacle is used is because it resembles
>a goats head. the symbol for satanic worship.

 Lots of people use it, clueless.
From: ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe)
Subject: Re: Pentagrams
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 01:49:59 GMT
Keywords: Pentagrams

sfoley@uumeme.chi.il.us (Sean M. Foley) writes:

>The only downfall of christianity as a whole is that it is WRONG. 

Gods, the sheer intolerance in this statement!  This statement sounds exactly
like a fundamentalist preacher telling us that all pagan religions are wrong.
Christianity, like all religions, is neither right nor wrong.  It simply is
a vessel for individuals.  I would agree that the *organisations* which claim
to be Christianity are wrong, but they aren't the religion no matter how often
they claim to be.

Enjoy the journey!

                      --Br'anArthur

                                      Queer, Peculiar, and Wyrd! :-)

******************************************************************************
"We are secretly replacing the fine quartz crystals this medicine pouch maker
usually uses with Folgers crystals.  Let's see what happens...."
                                      --DACCrowell
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: kditto@nyx.cs.du.edu (Kimborly Ditto)
Subject: Re: misc.magick...
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 92 04:13:17 GMT


I would just like to point out to ppl...

If the point (or one of the points) of doing this is to make *.magick more
accessable, moving it to a talk.* group won't do it.  A lot of sites don't
recieve those as well (mine doesn't).

In fact, I'm not sure if we get the misc.* groups.  I read off a remote
account, so I'm not really sure...I'll have to check.

Just a thought...

Blessings!  (and Merry Yule to all!!:))
--Kimborly A. Ditto

Xref: sparky alt.magick:6312 alt.pagan:14332 alt.co-ops:305
From: cenedra@cedar.circa.ufl.edu
Newsgroups: alt.magick,alt.pagan,alt.co-ops
Subject: INFO REQUEST: pagan/wiccan communes
Date: 17 Dec 92 01:54:27 GMT
Reply-To: CENEDRA@oak.circa.ufl.edu
Followup-To: alt.magick
Organization: Center for Instructional and Research Computing Activities

Well, third times the charm, eh? Seems like my server hasn't been posting
this to the rest of the world, so if you HAVE seen this before, I apologize.
  I REALLY need to find this info-can anyone out there PLEASE help me? I
have a friend who wants info on pagan/wiccan oriented communes. Any helpful
information that anyone could contribute would be greatly appreciated. Please
send any info that you might have on this to me via e-mail, as my net access
is VERY unpredictable. My e-mail address is
Cenedra@ufcc.ufl.edu
  Thank you very, very much!!!
                        Ce'Nedra , the name may be a fairy-tale but         
                                   the request is serious and URGENT 
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: jasonp@bungie.prime.com (Jason Pascucci)
Subject: Re: misc.magick...
Organization: Prime Computer R&D
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 23:24:10 GMT

Hum...

I think a weekly FAQ with a short expiration date might do
much to help the problem. I do kind of like Peggy's idea,
it might weed out much of the well-meaning but clueless
posts. 

--
Jason R. Pascucci
jasonp@primerd.prime.com
From: Tagi@cup.portal.com (Thyagi Morgoth NagaSiva)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: talk.magick
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 92 13:24:42 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
  <JOSHUA.92Dec16004436@bailey.cpac.washington.edu>
  <1gnu5cINNrbt@agate.berkeley.edu>

9212.16 e.v.


Yo.

Talk.Magick is a nice comrade to Talk.Religion and could then filter
off into 'Talk.Magick.Wiccan' and 'Talk.Magick.Hermetics' and
'Talk.Magick.Liechtensteinian' or even 'Talk.Magick.Kitchen'!

The possibilities are endless.  

I still want to know:


Why?  For what purpose?  

Who will be going there?

Why can't we make this Alt.Magick into subgroups or leave it the
way it is and broaden its perspective slightly?

What is the problem with this group?

How would you change it if you could?


Thyagi
-------------------------------------
"At its root all language has the character of metaphor,
because no matter what it intends to be about
it remains language, and remains absolutely unlike
whatever it is about."

James P. Carse, _Finite and Infinite Games_