HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: rkaplan@netcom.com (Richard Kaplan)
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
Subject: Re: Chiropractics?
Date: 25 Jan 93 22:56:07 GMT
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)

In article <1993Jan25.154023.36866@ux1.cts.eiu.edu> csfed@ux1.cts.eiu.edu
 (Frank E. Doss) writes:

>Every Chiropractor I have been to has said that the treatment for a
>condition is not something that can be done in a few hours or days time.
>The body takes time to heal itself.  Chiropractic helps the body heal
>itself.  An appropriate exercise program would, more often than not, tend
>to be part of the Chiropractor's treatment.

Were you actually given exercise?  In my experience, that is
rare for chiropractors.  If yes, what were you told to do?

>Personally, I would like to see professionalism between MDs and DCs.  The
>rivalry I am seeing from the MDs is pitiful.

What rivalry?  There has been straightforward discussion of
the risks vs. benefits of each practitioner.  

-- 
Richard Kaplan M.D.           Medical Software Exchange BBS
806 2nd St. SW # 104          (507) 281-1989 14,400 HST
Rochester, MN  55902          (507) 281-1689 Voice
PP-ASEL-IA     N4VRB          rkaplan@mayo.edu|netcom.netcom.com  
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
From: pce9202@bcstec.ca.boeing.com (Patricia Emily)
Subject: Missing front tooth...need medical advice.
Organization: Boeing
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 22:32:18 GMT


			

		WHAT TO DO ABOUT A BROKEN TOOTH???

My sister injured her front upper tooth as a child.  
The nerve in the tooth atrophied and died over the years.  
Now the problem is that the whole tooth fell out.  She had 
it "glued" in, but it is not a long-term solution.

She is looking for a conservative, long-term solution.  
She was told about teeth that are "screwed" into the bone of the 
tooth socket.  However, she was told that this is painful, and 
may have other problems associated with it.  She mentioned 
another solution ( a partial??) maybe, but I can't 
remember at the moment.

I am posting this hoping for some information, or someone with 
a similar experience.  She is looking for the most conservative 
approach possible (i.e. no surgery, or painful prosthetics, etc.)  

Please excuse my incomplete knowledge of the dental technology and
terminology.  I'm hoping some one can supply some information, or 
resource I could investigate.

Thank You!


Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
From: rkaplan@netcom.com (Richard Kaplan)
Subject: Re: Alternatives to conventional medicine and medical standards of proof
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 01:16:22 GMT

In article <1993Jan27.210702.14792@informix.com> hartman@informix.com
 (Robert Hartman) writes:

>entire point of this newsgroup is for people to pass along anecdotes
>about what's worked in their experience, or what they've heard about.

You are entirely correct.... as long as the anecdotes
are labelled as such.

>People who wish to discuss the relative risks and merits of these
>alternatives know, or ought to know, that they aren't (yet)
>scientifically proven.  Some may prove ineffective but otherwise

But some on this newsgroup are portraying these alternatives
as scientifically proven.... and that is what I object
to.

>certain rose hips helps my colds (a fictitious example), will Dr.
>Kaplan or someone else pass my claim on to the FDA for review?  Have I
>just perpetrated fraud in his eyes?

As long as you qualify your posting to the effect
that this is only speculation, a hypothesis, non-proven
anecdote, only for research, etc., whatever you say
is bound to be perfectly reasonable.  The postings
to which I have objected have been those which 
claim documented clinical effects whose basis of
proof is highly questionable.

>If Dr. Kaplan's intent is to protect readers here from fraud, I don't
>think it's necessary.  Most of us are well-enough educated to be able
>to use this network.  I think we can be presumed to be aware of the
>lack of scientific proof for most of the treatments that may be

But they are being portrayed as having scientific
proof, complete with some references to scientific
literature.
-- 
Richard Kaplan M.D.           Medical Software Exchange BBS
806 2nd St. SW # 104          (507) 281-1989 14,400 HST
Rochester, MN  55902          (507) 281-1689 Voice
PP-ASEL-IA     N4VRB          rkaplan@mayo.edu|netcom.netcom.com  
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
From: csfed@ux1.cts.eiu.edu (Frank E. Doss)
Subject: Re: Chiropractics?
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 19:20:59 GMT
Organization: Eastern Illinois University

In article <1993Jan27.005535.17477@netcom.com> rkaplan@netcom.com (Richard Kaplan) writes:
>
>You are absolutely right that the AMA benefits from having
>members who contribute knowledge of their respective specialities.
>However, common to all specialties within the AMA is acceptance
>of the need to include controlled studies of physiology,
>pathophysiology, and treatment effectiveness in one's thinking
>process when formulating a care plan.  This does not mean that
>all these elements are always known; however, the
>alopathic literature clearly values scientifically valid 
>data far more than anecdotal data, particularly when the
>former is easily attainable.

Maybe you ought to conduct a field trip to a Chiropractic College.  The
two I can think of are Logan and National.  Both produce fine physicians.
A little scientific study of chiropractic probably would shine a bright
light on a whole new way for you to help your patients get the best care
possible.

Have you ever checked out the boards a DC must go through to get licensed?

>Who has an attitude?

>Richard Kaplan M.D.           Medical Software Exchange BBS

-Frank
Std Disclaimers Apply.

-- 
Frank E. Doss                            Academic Computing
csfed@ux1.cts.eiu.edu                    Eastern Illinois University
From: greg@antizen.EBay.Sun.COM
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
Subject: Re: Analysis of Homeopathy Literature
Date: 22 Jan 1993 22:32:13 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Distribution: world
Reply-To: greg@antizen.EBay.Sun.COM
NNTP-Posting-Host: antizen.ebay.sun.com


In article 93Jan22144000@elvis.stsci.edu, bsimon@stsci.edu (Bernie Simon) writes:
> Having a bad day Steve? Why don't you try drinking a cup of chamomile
> tea instead of coffee next time?
> --
> Bernie Simon 		What we know comes to so little
> (bsimon@stsci.edu)	And what we presume is so much  -- Neruda
> 		


Ditto for me.

I hope that his hostility isn't stopping anyone from posting or asking
anything. That would be a shame indeed.

Greg


Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
From: pce9202@bcstec.ca.boeing.com (Patricia Emily)
Subject: Tick-borne disease or what???
Organization: Boeing
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 03:15:57 GMT


		
	Does anyone have good information on tick borne diseases?  My sister has 
	suffered several tick and flea bites last summer.  She has not felt well
	for the last several months.  She has flu-like symptoms; generally not 
	feeling well.  She has some minor joint inflammation in her right hand and toes.
	She says sometimes her finger tips and toes feeled inflammed.  Lately, she
	has woken up in the morning with her right hand closed and stiff.  She says
	it takes about 30 seconds to work it open.  

	She has been to numerous doctors hoping for a diagnosis and relief from the
	symptoms.  She has been diagnosed with things like rheumatoid arthritis, lupus,
	lyme disease (the tick connection). She has had the test for lyme disease and the
	results came back "equivocal" meaning not positive or negative.  The doctor however
	is treating her for lyme disease since they will treat if it is suspected.

	The antibiotic treatment for lyme disease is Suprax 400 mg, BID for 30 days.
	She said that she feels better after only a couple of days of antibiotics.

	Does anyone have a clue what is going on here, or have similar experiences??
	She has had a hard time finding knowledgable doctors, and still does not have a
	definite diagnosis.  I would be interested in hearing from people who have seen
	similar cases and can perhaps give some insight.  

	What is the prognosis for someone with this type of disease?  
	
	Thanks!


Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
From: ted@dgbt.doc.ca (Ted Grusec)
Subject: Re: anecdotal evidence - worthless?
Organization: The Communications Research Centre
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 93 00:41:58 GMT

In article <anne.727998575@menaik> anne@cs.UAlberta.CA (Anne J.R. Nield) writes:
>tarl@sw.stratus.com (Tarl Neustaedter) writes:
>
>For medical evidence, you should conduct an experiment with a large
>>enough sample to eliminate random noise (which could have been your result),
>>and run it as a double-blind test to eliminate placebo and self-delusion.
>>-- 
>
>"Medical" evidence (as in WESTERN, particularly North American, medical 
>evidence) ain't the only game
>in town -- even though many people would have us believe it is.
>
>Since so many absolutely miraculous things seem to occur based on
>"the placebo effect" and "self-delusion", I'm surprised the pharmaceutical
>companies haven't found a way to patent it yet.  Think of the $$$billions
>they're missing out on!

There's nothing "medical" about evidence.  Evidence is based on
logical inference regardless of whether it's medicine or some other
discipline, even if it's one not recognized as a "science".

As for placebo effects, walk into any drugstore and take your pick.
The pharmaceutical industries have been selling placebo cures for a
very long time, and they don't need to patent the effect.  They are
not missing $$$billions.  They are banking it.>
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Ted Grusec - Communications Research Centre, Ottawa, Ont., Canada
Internet: ted.grusec@crc.doc.ca - (613) 998 2762 - Fax (613) 993 8657
From: phoffman@orac.holonet.net (Paul E. Hoffman)
Subject: Re: WHO PAYS??
Organization: HoloNet National Internet Access BBS: 510-704-1058/modem
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 02:14:26 GMT

You ask some good questions, but not enough of them. For example, even
if treatment xyzzy is not "proven" by AMA standards to do anything other
than reduce stress (even if this is a placebo effect), who is to say that
that standard AMA-style treatments that cost the same amount are any
more effective? Stress reduction, relaxation, and so on should not
be discounted, particularly in US society.

I firmly believe that much of the insurance money spent on AMA-style
treatments that have been "proven" to be effective against disease X
probably cause/exacerbate disease Y. Is paying for such a treatment with
public funds a good idea?

>>Paul Hoffman
-- 
||  Why quote someone else?  ||
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
From: meyers@lorenz.ocean.fsu.edu (Steve Meyers)
Subject: Re: Chiropractics?
Organization: Florida State University
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 93 15:54:50 GMT

In article <1993Jan25.225607.24028@netcom.com> rkaplan@netcom.com (Richard  
Kaplan) writes:
> In article <1993Jan25.154023.36866@ux1.cts.eiu.edu>  
csfed@ux1.cts.eiu.edu

> >Personally, I would like to see professionalism between MDs and DCs.  
> >The rivalry I am seeing from the MDs is pitiful.
> 
> What rivalry?  There has been straightforward discussion of
> the risks vs. benefits of each practitioner.  
> 

I recall hearing about 2-3 years ago that there was a court ruling (I'll  
probably get this wrong) that said the AMA was guilty of illegal business  
practices because of the way they represented and conspired (my word)  
against chiropractors. Does anyone know the actual ruling?

Anyhow, just to add my 2 cents, I'd rather spend 6 months seeing a DC than  
letting some overrated surgeon cut into my back. Of course, this depends  
on my medical condition. If I had crushed vertebrae I'd see the surgeon. 

I think some DCs oversell what they can do and are simple charlatans.  
(But, didn't the AMA itself say that a significant percent of MDs should  
not be practicing because of incompetence?)

Chiropractors are medical specialists. Just as an internist should not  
perform brain surgery, a chiropractor should not try to cure cancer.  
However, for certain conditions well-trained chiropractors can be very  
effective.


-Steve
From: tarl@coyoacan.sw.stratus.com (Tarl Neustaedter)
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
Subject: Re: Analysis of Homeopathy Literature
Date: 23 Jan 1993 02:08:31 GMT
Organization: Stratus Computer, Software Engineering
NNTP-Posting-Host: coyoacan.sw.stratus.com

In article <1jpsldINNkqc@grapevine.EBay.Sun.COM> greg@antizen.EBay.Sun.COM writes:
>In article 93Jan22144000@elvis.stsci.edu, bsimon@stsci.edu (Bernie Simon) writes:
>> Having a bad day Steve? Why don't you try drinking a cup of chamomile
>> tea instead of coffee next time?
>Ditto for me.
>
>I hope that his hostility isn't stopping anyone from posting or asking
>anything. That would be a shame indeed.

Gee, I thought Steve was being mellow. He said that it was stupid to post a
list of references as part of an argument, if you hadn't read them. Does
someone think this is NOT stupid?
	Tarl
-- 
         Tarl Neustaedter	tarl@sw.stratus.com
         Marlboro, Mass.	Stratus Computer
Disclaimer: My employer is not responsible for my opinions.
From: echristo@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Elena A Christofides)
Subject: Re: Chiropractics?
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 01:10:04 GMT

>>get my MD (hopefully:)), I will obviously be an exception also.
>>
>>:)
>>Elena
>
>For those of you just tuning in, I'm reasonably sure that the above
>was in response to the article in which I mentioned that my uncle, a
>GP, had no problems with DOs and no use for chiropractors.
>
>Anyway, Ms Christofides, when you respond to an article, kindly
>include enough of that article so that other readers will have some
>idea of what you're talking about.
>
>(I'm not really trying to make her out as a net.evildoer -- she's not
>the only one who does this, after all.)
>
>  -- David Wright, Hitachi Computer Products (America), Inc.  Waltham, MA
>     wright@hicomb.hi.com  ** my opinion, not necessarily Hitachi's **
>
>
>
sorry. I was trying to do that but my news editor gets really screwed up 
sometimes. Again, sorry. It looks like it did it to me all day  - that day. 
Everything I posted ended up like that:(

:) Elena
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative,sci.med.nutrition
From: bsimon@stsci.edu (Bernie Simon)
Subject: Re: Garlic Gelcaps
Organization: None. This saves me from writing a disclaimer.
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 13:10:52 GMT

Besides the effects on blood cholesterol, garlic has been shown to
have an antibacterial and antiviral effect (my source is Dr. Andrew
Weil's "Natural Health, Natural Medicine"). It's best to use the "real
thing" instead of the pills. Try taking two cloves once a day the next
time you start coming down with a cold and see if it does any good.

--
Bernie Simon 		What we know comes to so little
(bsimon@stsci.edu)	And what we presume is so much  -- Neruda
		

Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
From: bsimon@stsci.edu (Bernie Simon)
Subject: Re: Scientific Basis for Homeopathy?
Organization: None. This saves me from writing a disclaimer.
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 12:27:11 GMT

I think you are mistaken about some of the aspects of homeopathic
provings. The following description of how a homeopathic proving is
performed is taken from J.T. Kent's "Lectures on Homeopathic
Philosophy". First, the provers are asked to record all symptoms of
illness for a month before the proving begins. Then they are given a
homeopathic medicine, usually in the 30C dilution, to take dissolved
in water every 2 to 4 hours until they begin showing symtoms from the
medicine. They then record their symptoms for an agreed period of
time, not discussing the symtoms among themselves. Then the results
are combined in a report where each symptom experienced, or change in
prexisting symptom, is listed along with the number of persons
reporting the symptom. Materia medicas pay most attention to symptoms
reported by the majority of the provers. However, some also list
idiosyncratic symptoms. In this case, the strong symptoms are set off
by being listed in italics or boldface. I do not know of any materia
medica that lists symptoms only reported by one or two provers. The
process of proving described above seems well designed to me and the
only improvement I could come up with is to have some of the provers
take a placebo.
 
--
Bernie Simon 		What we know comes to so little
(bsimon@stsci.edu)	And what we presume is so much  -- Neruda
From: smlacke@isrc.sandia.gov (Scott M Lackey)
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
Subject: Re: Analysis of Homeopathy Literature
Date: 22 Jan 93 17:36:44 GMT
Organization: Sandia National Labs, Org. 1600, Albq., NM

From article <1993Jan21.134208.6588@spdcc.com>, by dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer):
> In article <BSIMON.93Jan21074532@elvis.stsci.edu> bsimon@stsci.edu (Bernie "Don't confuse me with facts" Simon) writes:
>>There are two points in your post that I'd like to address. First,
>>I've never denied the value of scientifically valid evidence. What
>>I've said is that there are some controlled studies of homeopathy and
>>that the majority of these studies support its effectiveness.
> 
> Except that you admitted you haven't read them, and only you seem to be
> able to walk away from that review article with a sense that it supports
> homeopathy, when in fact, it doesn't.  How many times have we gone thru
> this cycle, and thanks to USENET, how many times will you go thru it again?
> 
> -- 
> Steve Dyer
> dyer@ursa-major.spdcc.com aka {ima,harvard,rayssd,linus,m2c}!spdcc!dyer

	I've been following this line for a while, and it seems strange that
there are so many references to "controlled studies of homeopathy",
and that many support its effectiveness, but that these studies are
never mentioned and discussed in detail.   I know of many ideas that have
been in leading journals yet have been not only wrong, but looking back
the journals have wondered how they could have printed it. _Nature_ has
printed an article on homeopathy which homeopaths used as evidence.
_Nature_ sent a team to oversee an attempt at replication (as part of
an agreement to print the article) and the team found obvious 
experimental errors.  When the errors were eliminated (the researchers
claimed the effect would still be present even with the changes) the
effect completely disappeared.  You won't hear homeopaths discussing the
second test.
	Can any supporter of homeopathy provide several examples of 
repeatable experiments? There is no reason why these should not exist
if homeopathy "works".  If it does not "work" one would expect to see
a hodgepodge of experimental results with mixed results. This appears
to be what we in fact see.  The way science distinguishes between  
"works" and "does not work" at this stage is to look for repeatable 
experiments.  If homeopaths can find even one experimental procedure
that produces results for anyone who does the experiment as stated,
then and only then will the scientific world take notice, and for good
reasons.

Scott Lackey
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
From: bsimon@stsci.edu (Bernie Simon)
Subject: Re: Analysis of Homeopathy Literature
Organization: None. This saves me from writing a disclaimer.
	<BSIMON.93Jan22073235@elvis.stsci.edu>
	<1993Jan22.174250.27010@spdcc.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 19:40:00 GMT

Having a bad day Steve? Why don't you try drinking a cup of chamomile
tea instead of coffee next time?
--
Bernie Simon 		What we know comes to so little
(bsimon@stsci.edu)	And what we presume is so much  -- Neruda
		

Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
From: stigh@itk.unit.no (Stig Atle Haugdahl)
Subject: Re: Scientific Basis for Homeopathy?
Organization: Norwegian Institute of Technology / SINTEF, Trondheim, Norway
	<BSIMON.93Jan26072711@elvis.stsci.edu>
Date: 26 Jan 93 19:30:51

In article <BSIMON.93Jan26072711@elvis.stsci.edu> bsimon@stsci.edu (Bernie Simon) writes:
> 

> ... The following description of how a homeopathic proving is
> performed is taken from J.T. Kent's "Lectures on Homeopathic
> Philosophy". First, the provers 
                       ^^^^^^^^^^ how many?


> ... reporting the symptom. Materia medicas pay most attention to symptoms
> reported by the majority of the provers. However, some also list
> idiosyncratic symptoms. In this case, the strong symptoms are set off
> by being listed in italics or boldface. I do not know of any materia
> medica that lists symptoms only reported by one or two provers. The
                                                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Here I think you are wrong. I have seen in Kent's Medica ONE example of 
a proving where the number of subjects was written. As I remember the 
really huge amount of 5 persons contributed, two or three of which that 
also got a higher potency. 
In the description Kent stated "Mr. Y. said this, Mrs. Y.had these symptoms.." 
In all other remedies the number of contributers are
NOT listed, whatever one might think of that. Do you know the number of
provers in Kent's books? Are there any reasons to believe there are more
than 5 on the average? In fact, what proof have we for Mr. Kent not
making the Medica all by himself? Or pushing the similarities a bit too much?
Stranger things have happened both before and after, I mean.


> ... process of proving described above seems well designed to me and the
> only improvement I could come up with is to have some of the provers
> take a placebo.

What about repeating the process of Kent's to find out what symptom
description arose of coincidences? Clearly, there must have been some,
considering the low number of triers. In fact, even if homeopathy was
working, how can you determine the validity of the text books, with 
such rotten test procedures?

BTW, I saw a Medica (don't remember which one) where I found the description
of X-Rays!!! (In fact it was water exposed to radiation before dilution.)
That one was a real laugh, do you (homeopaths) still prescribe it?
I mean, being The Natures Way Of Healing, I found it a bit misplaced.
They didn't report the number of provers on that one, either.

BTBTW, Re anectodical evidence:
Watch Super Bowl on Sunday!!!
There you'll probably see some really hilarious use of statistics.
Amazing coincidences occur as long as the sampled data is too scarce.


--


--------------------------------
Vis tecum sit      ///|\\\
                   | o o |
Stig                \ - /
--------------------------------

Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
From: green@island.COM (Robert Greenstein)
Subject: Life Extension Foundation
Organization: Strawman Incorporated
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 19:53:51 GMT

Does anyone have the address, or better yet, the telephone number for
the Life Extension Foundation?
-- 
******************************************************************************
Robert Greenstein           What the fool cannot learn he laughs at, thinking
green@srilanka.island.com   that by his laughter he shows superiority instead
                            of latent idiocy - M. Corelli
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative