From: narayana@psuvax1.cs.psu.edu (Kuram T Narayana)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.indian,soc.culture.tamil
Subject: Re: On Indian Civilization being the oldest...
Date: 13 Nov 92 01:36:33 GMT
Organization: Penn State Computer Science

In article <1992Nov12.224507.3898@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU> akash@sol.berkeley.edu (Akash R. Deshpande) writes:
>Using following extracts only as a starting-point for a rough theory:
>
>>                                                The Aryan upon their
>>arrival into the continent went upon discovering the nature of the Self.
>>Their initial thoughts were purely speculative and wonderful. They
>>recorded their personal experiences as hymns. These hymns which are just
>>poetic aspects were refined to beutiful pieces. These are what we call
>>the vedic hymns. 
>
>It is extremely unreasonable to suggest that an invading tribe went
>about discovering "the nature of the self." If at all there was an
>"Aryan arrival" into the continent, it was more than likely attended
>by more vital matters such as survival, warfare, settling the land,
>organising communities, townships, kingdoms, societies, etc, (and not the
>least :-), learning Tamil). So let us give them about a 1000 odd years
>to accomplish that. It is reasonable to say, however, that when society 
>was reasonably prosperous and stable, a systematic attempt developed 
>for discovering "the nature of the self." We know this since there 
>was an elaborate mechanism of preserving knowledge through an oral 
>tradition, which drew upon the teacher-disciple set up. An agrarian
>society that can spare young individuals for non-agrarian tasks is
>a clear sign of prosperity. I must note that the teachers in this society
>were not world-denying ascetics, but in fact had substantial land
>and other resources, and disciples were expected to perform worldly 
>tasks in addition to academic/philosophical ones.
>

Rg veda contains hymns which record the progression of the importance of
the various deities that the Aryans conceived. The importance shifted 
as their life progressed. It is true that many of the hymns were 
formulated by vedic rishis. At least RadhaKrishnan says that the recordings
are metaphysical experiences born out of detachment from the society
of their day. The hymns themselves were propagated from generation to 
generation by oral tradition. I agree that is how the metaphysical
thought was kept alive.

>Coming to the Rig Veda, we see a remarkably systematic terminology 
>which is consistent across all the hymns, and across all composers spanning
>several generations. Hence, one may believe that in fact the Rig Veda
>was a summary compendium composed towards the end of a major cycle
>of "research". Its terminology is symbolic and draws upon a rural as well
>as a martial mind-set to refer to (psychological) phenomena. Irrespective
>of the subject of the Rig Veda, the consistent terminology with its rural
>and martial source and the system of oral tradition for preserving it
>suggest that a substantial stable culture and society that for some
>reason valued the Rig Veda already existed. Hence, it would be an error
>to classify it as purely personal experiences. Further, they were not
>refined to beautiful poetry after composition. The oral tradition was
>very rigid. In case alternate versions appeared due to later correction
>or corruption, then both versions were preserved.

Radhakrishnan's view that the hymns were personal metaphysical experiences
is grounded (at least from what I can infer) on the aphorism of Badarayana
namely,

  Saastra Yonitvaat

which says Brahman is the source of the Vedas. This is an extremely
poignant statement; first it says that Saastra's are apourusheyas.
That is very important. Secondly, it also says that somebody has
experienced about the brahman, and the saastras are the source of
the knowledge of the Brahman. It is difficult to make such 
a statement of gravity.

>
>>Very soon they felt that their ritual component is the one
>>that relates their self to the Brahman. They systamatized the rituals
>>as Brahmanas; an appedage to Vedas. But their thought processes 
>>developed further than the rituals; there came the philosophical
>>aspects of the aryan civilization which are the Upanishads. Each
>>veda (by now four) has hymns, the brahmanas and a set of Upanishads.
>>This totality of work is attributable to a single person. There were
>>a lot of people (basically the rishis) who were responsible for
>>developing the volume of thought.
>
>I don't know what you mean by "very soon", or by "they." Clearly,
>society at large did not directly participate in the psychological
>experiments recorded in the Rig Veda, but received the results through
>disciples returning home, wandering minstrels, etc. More than likely,

Soon is certainly not the next day! It is a long duration and is a
continuous process.

>these results were transmitted not directly as psychological experiences,
>but rather as myths, stories, rituals, doctrine, philosophy, etc,
>until their original symbolism was totally lost to society at large,
>and only empty shells of formulae and rituals remained. This occured
>alongside a further development of society into kingdoms, professions,
>cultures, etc. with a more intellectual bent to the mind of the people.
>This clearly doesn't happen "very soon," and accounting for production
>of the other three Vedas, several Puranas, Ramayan, Mahabharat,
>systematisation of the music system, language system, etc let us give
>it (guessing) 1000-2000 years.
>
>However, there remained a core of people who retained the thread of the
>original quest, and through a second wave of "research" produced a
>compendium of Upanishads which addressed the fundamental psychological
>quest of the Rig Veda in a more philosophical setting. We must note that
>again, the teacher-disciple set up persisted, that teachers were
>generally well off, and thrust on this-worldly approach was emphasised.
>All Upanishads essentially deal with immortality for man in this life
>here on earth. In general, the teacher starts off by sermonising that
>the disciple shall not neglect practical life while on the inner quest.
>After the disciple reaches inner knowledge, the teacher ends by
>sermonising that the disciple should use this knowledge in practical life.
>In passing I note that that while social organisation was much more cast
>in the times of the Upanishads, there was still quite a large commonality
>and mobility.
>
>Of course, now the same process repeated until the deep knowledge was
>lost in empty formulae, shastras, codes, rituals; society became
>more and more rigid, cultures diverged, professions became immobile,
>etc, and life became more "tough" in general. Due to all the newfangled
>languages, no one really had access to even the texts of the Vedas and
>Upanishads.  Time was ripe for Jainism, Buddhism, etc. Certainly, Jain and
>Buddha were themselves realised, however, the development of society by their
>time gave an impossible picture of perfectible life on earth. Hence,
>we got into Nirvana, moksha, other worldly attitude, fatalism, etc. This
>sapped the life-force out of Indian society. There were strident
>attempts by "Hindus" to incorporate Buddhism into itself. But we are
>already discussing middle Indian history.
>
>
>So, all in all, give me the following:
>
>    >1000 years to settle the land, etc.
>    1000 years to develop a stable prosperous society
>    1000 years upto composition of Rig Veda
>    2000 years upto end of Vedic Period
>    1000 years upto composition of Upanishads
>    1000 years upto end of Vedantic Period
>    last 2500 years.
>
>Of course, all of above are very approximate give/take few centuries in each.
>Even then we need to push back "Aryan invasion" if at all there was one
>to 5000BC-8000BC. In which case, of course, why do we need it at all?
>
>-Akash

Vedanta you do not need if your purpose is material; life. But if
your objective is to liberate yourself from your bondage
and seek the Brahman, then that is a plausible way. It is precisely
that aspect that has kept the civilization looking upto the vedas,
in spite of consistent attempts to defile them.
...kt

>
Xref: sparky soc.culture.indian:36316 soc.culture.usa:8361