HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: diarmuid@uniwa.uwa.edu.au (Diarmuid Pigott)
Subject: Re: JOHN CAGE
Organization: University of Western Australia
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 04:09:13 GMT

al@sys6626.bison.mb.ca (Haus Der Luge) writes:
: It struck me recently that those who have been most nasty and rude 
: towards John Cage's music (a lot of them have, of course, come out of the 
: woodwork since his untimely death) 
:  

I don't agree - some of the most popular and lengthy flame-wars on this
group have been about Cage...

And if you are serious when you write
: ... are the people who need his music the most.
then you are confirming what I always suspected - John Cage (as well as
being a thoroughly nice bloke with a sense of humour who wrote clearly
and amusingly and was an expert mycologist) was an aesthetician, not a
composer... 

I would never compare Bach or Beethoven to a patent medicine tonic. Do
you think the FDA should investigate the therapeutic/harmful effects of
Cage's music? Should the music only be sold on a prescription from a
naturopath? "Warning - bottle is empty, but the net volume is 4.33 ml,
and the patient should assume the position of a patient about to take
medicine". 

Ahah - you have such insight - I realise what you mean - John Cage's
compositions are THE PLACEBO OF MUSIC! Brilliant... Sir, I take my hat
off to you...
Xref: sparky rec.music.classical:11124 soc.motss:34879
From: stevenso@Apple.COM (David Stevenson)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical,soc.motss
Subject: Re: DERRINGDESNIEBELUNGENSIEGFRIEDSTODVOLSUNGASAAGAEDDA
Date: 12 Aug 92 19:54:39 GMT
Organization: Apple Computer Inc., Cupertino, CA

drp@dosbears.uucp guesses:
>In article <92224.194108KSSHC@CUNYVM.BITNET> KSSHC@CUNYVM.BITNET (Ken Sherrill) writes:
>>The world premiere of DERRINGDESNIEBELUNGENSIEGFRIEDSTODVOLSUNGASAGAEDDA (The
>>Ring, Our way) with supertitles, a multi-media performance/installation by Jack
>>Waters and Peter Cramer will occur on Friday, Sept. 11 at 9 PM (A second per-
>>formance will take place on Sunday, Sept. 20, 1992 at 7 PM.)  
>
>I have this horrible feeling that there is only, like, half an
>hour between the first show and the second show :-)
>
Or that the second performance begins a few days before the first ends.
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: mikulska@crux.Princeton.EDU (Margaret Mikulska)
Subject: Re: JOHN CAGE
Originator: news@nimaster
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1992 00:50:57 GMT

In article <BtCst1.B7q@quake.sylmar.ca.us> brian@quake.sylmar.ca.us (Brian K. Yoder) writes:

>Are you telling me that sitting in silence for 4'33" is something other 
>than boring?  I can't imagine anything less exciting.

No disagreement here, Brian.  If _you_ sit in silence (for any amount
of time), you have nobody but you as your company.  And boy, _that_
must be boring!

-Margaret
From: peter@celia.UUCP (Peter Farson)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Wedding music suggestions?
Date: 22 Aug 92 08:30:40 GMT
Reply-To: celia!peter@usc.edu (Peter Farson)
Organization: Rhythm & Hues, Inc., Hollywood

In article <1992Aug17.144302.11662@ms.uky.edu) cyeomans@ms.uky.edu (Charles Yeomans) writes:
)In article <1992Aug15.173924.19765@usenet.ins.cwru.edu) ac220@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Rich Szabo) writes:
))
))Anyone have some suggestions for good wedding ceremony music?
))I would like to solicit your ideas.  The ceremony is a Catholic
))mass and I am slated to appear as the groom.  Please post
))suggestions here or e-mail to ac220@cleveland.freenet.edu.
))Thanks!
))Rich Szabo 
))-- 
)
)How about the middle section of the fifth movement of 
)Berloz' "Symphonie Fantastique"?  It even uses a Catholic theme.
)

  Or how about the processional music from the 2nd act of Gotterdammerung,
when Gunther is escorting Brunnhilde?


-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
| eeee eeee    ii ii ii ii                   wawa            ch         |
|           gugugugugug        o o                  tftftftftftftf      |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: snahas@ARIES.INTEL.COM (steven nahas)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Wedding music Recommedations
Date: 19 Aug 92 04:58:16 GMT


To hopefully further clarify:

No live musicians, just CD's.

True, we could listen for our whole honeymoon if everyone suggests something
from each of the composers listed, but i'm hoping some suggestions will be
STRONGLY recommended or multipli-recommended, so that I'll get off my butt
and go listen to them :-)...

Re: no dance music, I guess I meant, "We're not really intersted in waltzes,
or any music people might actually want to get up and dance to durint the 
reception".  I like Bartok, but I don't think anyone would get up and dance
to the Miraculous Mandarin, though I may be going out on a limb with a 
statement that strong in this group :-)!

Thanks for the suggestions that have come or are coming.

Again, sorry if this comes so soon after a previous similar request,
and I hope no one is put off too much to offer a suggestion.  All wiil
be GREATLY appreciated !

Steve Nahas
snahas@aries.intel.com

Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: cb@tamarack13.timbuk (Chris Brewster)
Subject: Re: New Vox Box and Vox Legends Catalog
In-reply-to: rwh@visual.com's message of Fri, 14 Aug 92 19:08:50 GMT
Organization: pubs
Date: 18 Aug 92 12:40:34 CDT

Rob Holzel writes:

   >Chavez
   >The Complete Symphonies
   >London Symphony Orchestra
   >Eduardo Mata, conductor
   >CDX 5061

   This set is a fantastic value: comprehensive (they're all here), solid
   performances, and good DDD sound.

   All this, and only about ten bucks for the two-disc set.

I hate to disagree with anyone within the relatively small community of
people interested in Chavez, but I find the LSO amazingly ragged in this
set.  The other complete set of these symphonies is conducted by Chavez
with the Mexico Symphony Orchestra (which could be billed as "Carlos
Chavez and His Orchestra").  This was recorded in the 50s.  All I can
say is that Mexico in the 50s and London c. 1980 sound just the reverse
of what I would have expected.  I imagine the Mata set is the only one
currently available in any case, but the Chavez set is in the category
of composers' performances that really are best (like Britten, unlike
Strauss).

Chris Brewster
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: markc@hydra.maths.unsw.EDU.AU ()
Subject: Re: Beethoven - overvalued?
Organization: school of Mathematics UNSW
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 03:05:03 GMT

Surely the correct list of great composers would have to be
1)Beethoven (late period)
2)Beethoven (middle period)
3)Beethoven (early period)

Mark C.

Xref: sparky rec.music.classical:11478 rec.sport.olympics:4509
From: Donald.E.Reed@dartmouth.edu (Donald E. Reed)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical,rec.sport.olympics
Subject: Music from Olympics
Date: 20 Aug 92 13:28:25 GMT
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH


I know this is late but I haven't had any luck in finding this out so,
Does anyone recall the  Classic music piece from Rhthmic Gymnastics
Performer Oskana Skaldina of the Unified Team. She won the bronze
medal, the music came in the middle of ther performance and I know I
have heard it before but no one I know either  saw it or knew it. 

Thanks
Don Reed
From: lampson@tellabs.com (Dave Lampson)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Mozart REQUIEM
Date: 14 Aug 92 20:42:28 GMT
Article-I.D.: tellab5.1992Aug14.204228.23334
Organization: Tellabs, Inc., IL

In article <1992Aug11.170305.1@venus.ycc.yale.edu> bamn@venus.ycc.yale.edu writes:
>In article <1992Aug11.180142.21539@titan.tsd.arlut.utexas.edu>, colby@tsd.arlut.utexas.edu (Colby Leider) writes:
>> 
>> This work is awesome.  (i just thought i would share this with everyone)
>
>i agree wholeheartedly, i consider it to be mozarts best!
>naren



Obviously the Requiem of choice among people who can't find their shift key.


-- 

Dave
lampson@tellabs.com
From: diarmuid@uniwa.uwa.edu.au (Diarmuid Pigott)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: JOHN CAGE
Date: 22 Aug 92 03:42:39 GMT
Organization: University of Western Australia

roger@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig) writes:
: You're beginning to catch on!  Cage was interested in removing
: philosophy from music where possible. 

Absolute b*llsh*t.

Cage was about employing different philosophies. He would be the last
person in the world to insist on a value-free aproach. His zen-ism is
the essence of his music.

: All those years of Aristotle and
: Plato and Kant and Nietzsche and Kierkegaard and so on needed some
: serious stripping away.

Your selective use of philosophers shows you subscribed to the "Boy's Own
Book of Music and Philosophy" (available for a newsstand near you in 26
fortnightly extracts - leatherette binders available on request).

Unfortunately since the series is a reprint of the one put out in
Stuttgart in 1890, it avoids messy people like Wittgenstein, Ayer, or
Marx. 
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: roger@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: Authentic performance/pitch.
Originator: news@nimaster
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 03:03:09 GMT

In article <basinski-190892142043@lully.biosci.arizona.edu> basinski@biosci.arizona.edu (Mark Basinski) writes:

>     The "key associations" originated *before* equal-temperament, and were
>originally based upon the *very* different nature of different keys based 
>upon Just intonation...i.e. you Tune to C major, and that causes the 
>C - E major third to be a perfect and "sweet" third, but if you play in
>A major, the A - C third is different. 

Actually, the "key associations" were taken over almost wholesale from
old modal theory, which didn't need one tuning or another to point out
the differences between modes.  And they didn't last very long, either,
once taken into the new tonal theory; besides, nobody could agree on
what this or that key might mean.

Finally, the "key associations" were described almost exclusively with
regard to secular vocal music, which was at that time composed for
voices, strings, and keyboard instruments, and was not likely to afford
the listener much insight into what tuning was in use -- and it wasn't
Just in those days, either -- mean-tone or some tempered tuning is more
likely.  It's pretty hard to find the words "C major" and "just
intonation" in the same chapter of a book.

>So this "key characteristic" is not
>based upon the relative pitch level of the work but the pitch relationships
>of the intervals of the key. J.S.Bach used to drive the organ makers crazy
>by going in to inspect these organs right after they'd been tuned (justly)
>and playing pieces in Db minor, etc. which sounded hideous of course...

Because he didn't go for just intonation, of course.  (What's your
source for this story, btw?  I don't know it.)

Roger
From: IMAGING.CLUB@OFFICE.WANG.COM ("Imaging Club")
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Polish Soprano Julietta Jedwabski Returns to Poland on Tour
Date: 12 Aug 92 22:05:22 GMT
Organization: Mail to News Gateway at Wang Labs

BOSTON, MA--(August 12, 1992)--Polish soprano Julietta Jedwabski, now
living in Massachusetts, returns to Poland tomorrow to start a tour
through major Polish cities.  Miss Jedwabski studied under Miss Pila
at the leading Boston Conservatory, completing both undergraduate and
masters programs there.  Arrangements are now being set up for concerts
in major cities there, primarily Warsaw and Lublin, the cultural and
industrial center of southeastern Poland.  The tour is expected to
last well into 1993.
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: chem91@Rosie.UH.EDU ("Bill Harrison (713)-743-2789")
Subject: Graphics
Reply-To: chem91@Rosie.UH.EDU
Organization: University of Houston
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 14:39:32 GMT


Greetings... I'm interested in the "graphics" files that are whizzing 
over the net (Shostakovich, Jarvi, etc.). What "format" are they in? 
How does one print them??

Thanks,
Bill



+ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\               /~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Bill Harrison,            \             /       "Be as radical as... |
| University of Houston, TX  >-----------<         reality itself"     |
| CHEM91@JETSON.BITNET      /             \                V. I. Lenin |
+ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~/               \~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: feld@ccu.umanitoba.ca (Michael Feld)
Subject: Re: Bach and religious feelings
Organization: University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 16:28:16 GMT

In article <1992Aug19.111503.29246@nntpd.lkg.dec.com> tomanix@sintra.xip.dec.com (Antonio Rodrigues) writes:
>
>roger@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig) writes:
>
>>>The music speaks for itself, most eloquently.
>
>>Bullshit.
>
>>NO music speaks.  Ever.  It has to be played and listened to.  It has to
>>be given a context for listening, and in many cases it needs to be
>>explained, either in reference to other music, or in reference ot
>>cultural or historical matters.
>
>>Music does NOT speak for itself; we have to make it speak, and we
>>generally make that music speak which agrees with our opinions.
>
>Maybe I'm wrong but it seems that you are that kind of people that
>listens music in their cars on the way home after a working day.
>
>Music, the way I see it, is an image, a projection of something that is
>beyond itself. A language, and so it speaks for itself. When you' re listen
>music, and Bach is a good example, you 're transported to other reality. 
>The thing is that you have to be sensitive to music the same way you have to
>be sensitive to maths in order to understand, I prefer 'feel', that language.  
>
>If by 'a context for listening' you mean 'not in the car' I can agree
>with you, but I prefer to say 'available to feel'.
>
>The music DON'T need to be played, the player is just the 'transport
>provider', and all musics, again Bach is a good example, lost something when
>they 're being performed, even if they are good performances.
>
>Do you think music 'needs to be explained' ?! Please try to 'explain' to 
>me 'The Goldberg Variations' ..., no, I don't mean that text you found in
>your CD, I mean the music, it' essence, and I don't see what it has to do
>with Mr. Goldberg or the Count Kaiserling's sleepless nights. 
>
>tomanix
>   


I think you are both right.

Most music -- popular music provides the easiest example -- derives a
great deal of its significance from cultural context; think of Bob
Dylan, e.g., or "American Pie".

Bach, with his mathemticization, is a very dubious example of this
theme, doubtless to his regret.  "Jesu joy of man's desiring" was
intended to connect worshippers to their God.  I love the piece, but
am anti-religious; the context is irrelevant to me.

Now consider the "Eroica"; consider the change from celebrating
Napoleon to celebrating freedom.
-- 
Michael Feld                         | E-mail:  <feld@ccu.umanitoba.ca>
Dept. of Philosophy                  | FAX:     (204) 261-0021
University of Manitoba               | Voice:   (204) 474-9136
Winnipeg, MB, R3T 2M8, Canada	                     
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical,rec.music.folk,rec.music.misc,rec.music.dementia
From: lgold@callahans.Cadence.COM (Lynn Gold)
Subject: Re: musical coincidences [SUMMARY]
Organization: /mnt4/lgold/.organization
	<1992Aug14.080335.6403@uniwa.uwa.edu.au>
Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1992 08:49:33 GMT

Nobody's mentioned the most famous of them all:

The Shirelle's hit "He's So Fine" and George Harrison's "My Sweet Lord."

Btw, what ever became of the Gordon Lightfoot suit re: "The Greatest
Love of All"?  I don't see enough similarity between the two songs.

--Lynn
--
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?<&QY97(@=V5R92!T;R!H97)E(&%B;W5T('1H:7,A"F%P
`
From: yoshi@hpjsdo.kobe.hp.com (Kazuo Yoshizaki)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: acoustic pianos versus digital pianos/keyboards
Date: 17 Aug 92 05:57:31 GMT
Organization: APPO/Japan Solution Development Operation,Kobe

If you can afford a grand, you should get one rather than a digital.

When I moved to my apartment, I bought a Roland digital piano. (Before that, I
was playing a Yamaha grand at home.)
I didn't care much about the sound quality as I just wanted to play it for fun
so I have little complaint about the sound. (BTW, I play Chopin, Rachmaninov and
Scriabin.) 
The significant difference I feel when I switch to the grand is the key touch. 
Key touch of the grand pianos is heavier than my digital one and it takes a 
little time to get used to the grand now. 
However, as the technology improves, there are digital ones with more realistic
touch nowadays.
I went around some music shops in down town the other day and checked every 
digital pianos and I felt Kawai's latest model PW800 has got the best key touch.
I guess if you master some piece with this model, you can play it smoothly with 
a grand too. As to the sound quality, I felt Technics digital was best but Kawai
was acceptable too.

Considering the fact that acoustic upright piano also has got a different key
touch from the grand, I think Kawai's digital is the best choice.



K. Yoshizaki - Yokogawa Hewlett Packard
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: mikulska@crux.Princeton.EDU (Margaret Mikulska)
Subject: Re: WEBERN
Originator: news@nimaster
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 18:40:31 GMT

In article <1992Aug14.025118.11138@newshost.unh.edu> dvf@kepler.unh.edu (David V Feldman) writes:
>
>There are complete recordings of Webern's songs and also of his
>string quartets and trios that contain between them many works missing
>from the Boulez box.  Also a set of piano music by Takahashi that contains
>a short piano piece without an opus number, perhaps the one that
>Margaret Mikulska referred to recently in the context of another
>discussion.

Thanks to another netter I looked up the Takahashi set and discovered
that there are two un-opused piano pieces there: a "Kinderstueck" and a
"Klavierstueck".  I would have to listen to them to make sure that my
posting referred to the former.  

That's what happens when you don't catalog your CDs ... you find out
from other people what you have in your collection :-)

Oh, and speaking of un-opused Webern: I don't think anybody has as yet
mentioned the short orchestral piece "Im Sommerwind".  There are two
recordings at the moment: one coupled with Brahms's #2 (?), another one,
with some less known compositions - I'll look up and post the details.
This piece is really astonishing when you known the "real" Webern -
there is not a trace, absolutely nothing indicating that W's music will
go the way it did.  It's also one of the most charming and serene
orchestral miniatures (it's quite short) I know.

-Margaret
From: paul@cgh.cgh.com (Paul Homchick)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: De mortuis nil...?
Summary: cage, obituary, new york times
Date: 15 Aug 92 21:09:41 GMT
Organization: Chimitt Gilman Homchick, Inc.

The following correction was published in Saturday's New York Times:

===
Because of an editing error, an obituary on Thursday about the
composer John Cage characterized his music incorrectly.  Though
some of his works could be described as Minimalist and though Mr.
Cage influenced the Minimalist movement in music and art, his
works defied formal classification and were often intentionally
chaotic.

The obituary also rendered the titles of two of Mr. Cage's works
incorrectly.  The book in which his Norton Lectures were collected
was "I-VI"; the work performed by the New York Philharmonic in
1964 was "Atlas Eclipticalis With Winter Music."
-- 
Paul Homchick                    :UUCP     {rutgers | uunet} !cbmvax!cgh!paul
Chimitt Gilman Homchick, Inc.    :Internet                       paul@cgh.com
1111 West DeKalb Pike, Suite 101 :MCI                               PHOMCHICK
Wayne, PA  19087-2179            :GEnie                              HOMCHICK
From: maverick@cs.berkeley.edu (Vance Maverick)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: JOHN CAGE
Date: 20 Aug 1992 16:25:18 GMT
Organization: CS Division, UC Berkeley
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: mahogany.cs.berkeley.edu

In article <qgRsPB3w164w@sys6626.bison.mb.ca>, kevin@sys6626.bison.mb.ca (Kevin Scott) writes:
|>  
|> [I]t's questionable whether a 
|> lot of what he did could be termed "music" at all,

It is by now traditional, in this ongoing flamefest, to observe at
junctures like this that Cage did not insist you so term it.

|> The place I lose him is where one 
|> piece of music can sound totally different when interpreted by several 
|> people.

This is a popular arena of prejudice.  Recently I gave a talk about
work I've done in software for composing computer music.  By "computer
music" I meant the musical style which grew out of tape music, where a
composition is absolutely fixed once done, like a painting.  This
bothered a colleague in the audience considerably: he's a Baroque
freak, and couldn't understand why I wasn't allowing for variation
between performances.  For me, these are just different aesthetics.  A
jazz musician should be embarrassed to repeat himself, even on the
umpteenth pass over "Goodbye Porkpie Hat."  Cage's aesthetic quest
brought him to the point where he could praise someone's music
[Feldman's?] as a celebration that we possess nothing.  What better
celebration than an intrinsically transient music?

|> In my mind, the point where the last bit of order is gone is 
|> where is stops being music and starts becoming "performance art".

Got a definition of music handy?

	Vance
From: le01167@portal.lasc.lockheed.com (Ron Nadel (x2025))
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Prokofiev 5th with Ozawa on DG - a review
Date: 19 Aug 92 15:09:57 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Lockheed Aeronautical Systems Co. - Rye Canyon
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <1992Aug19.000945.19280@galileo.cc.rochester.edu>, rtut@troi.cc.rochester.edu (Raymond Tuttle) writes...
>Deutsche Grammophon, Seiji Ozawa and the Berlin Philharmonic are in
>the middle of their projected cycle of Prokofiev's complete symphonies. 
>The first release (435 027), which coupled the Second and Seventh
>Symphonies, was distinctly successful.  The present CD (435 029),
>which couples the famous Fifth with the symphonic suite from
>"Lieutenant Kije," is less clearly a winner, but it still has many
>attractive points. 


How would you compare with this one with Roshdestvensky and Karajan recordings?


Ron
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical