HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: sg04@ploni.gte.com (Yechezkal Shimon Gutfreund)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Nonsense symmetry
Date: 14 Aug 92 16:17:56 GMT
Reply-To: sgutfreund@gte.com
Organization: GTE Laboratories, Waltham MA

In article <1992Aug12.203624.10620@midway.uchicago.edu>, pab1@quads.uchicago.edu (paul andrew braier) writes:
|> Where the questions actually DO touch on halacha, such as what food has
|> an acceptable hechsher and what food even requires supervision, there is
|> very little questioning, if any. Those on the far right go for the more
|> strict decision and don't question whether they really need to.
|> 

I think you are letting emotion carry you to generalities which
are not always true. Or perhaps you have not met as wide a circle
of those "on the far right" whatever that might mean.

I know many people who are quite strict on matters such as gebrok's.
Howerver, their reasoning is quite intellectual, and not a non-questioning
extremist approach. Indeed, they will frequently point out leniencies
that people are allowed to take according to halacha that many
are not aware of.

What I am getting at is that it depends on the class of people one
meets. While I am sure there are people such as the one's you characterize,
I see little point in dwelling on them. Their approach is mindless
extremesm, and there are statements is Shas about those who are always
makil and those who are always machmir. 

Instead why not focus on the "meat" of the matter.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Yechezkal Shimon Gutfreund		 		  sgutfreund@gte.com
GTE Laboratories, Waltham MA			    harvard!bunny!sgutfreund
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
From: weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Aluminum
Date: 21 Aug 92 18:12:34 GMT
Reply-To: weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener)
Organization: The Wistar Institute of Anatomy and Biology

I've heard contrasting stories about the need for the supervision of
aluminum.  They range from bald assertions by people who know that the
last step can involve coating with treyf oils, to bald assertions by
people who know that the last step always involves a megaheating that
kashers the stuff.  And there are supposed to be special problems (or
not) with cans and drums.  And the megabuck agreement with the major
steel manufacturers is either a great and glorious blessing or an
embarrassingly criminal ripoff, depending on whom you ask.

Anyone who knows want to supply a few bald assertions?  Anyone who
doesn't know?
-- 
-Matthew P Wiener (weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu)
Xref: sparky soc.culture.jewish:14075 soc.culture.yugoslavia:7839
From: stojanov@husc10.harvard.edu (Milan Stojanovic)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: Irony continues in our history
Date: 12 Aug 92 12:02:12 GMT
Article-I.D.: husc3.1992Aug12.080213.14656
Organization: Harvard University Science Center


I will post during next few days the relevant parts of Tudjman's book.
I will be posting that on soc.history and soc.culture.yugoslavia.
I will avoid soc.culture.jewish, since some part might be extremely 
offensive, and I will not do editing of Tudjman's book.  While doing this,
I would have to give up all other discussions.  I will just make a brief
comment on the following posting, also on soc.history and soc.culture.
yugoslavia.

Regards,

Milan n. Stojanovic

[
In article <1992Aug11.184018.322@src.umd.edu> josip@src.umd.edu (Josip Loncaric) writes:
>In article <1992Aug11.121711.14620@husc3.harvard.edu> stojanov@husc8.harvard.edu (Milan Stojanovic) writes:
>>Just to address two key points in Mr. Loncaric's posting.  
>>I do not have time for each misrepresentation.
>
>Mr. Stojanovic may disagree with my statements, but rather than to engage
>in a game of "he said, she said" with him, I'm going to simply provide
>references to interested readers:
>
>On WWII in former Yugoslavia: A brief but clear chapter in:
>
>Wayne S. Vucinich: Contemporary Yugoslavia
>                   Univ. Cal. Press, 1969,
>                   Call Number: DR370.V8
>
>On Tudjman's book: It's easy to quote someone out of context when you want to.
>                   The book is about man's inhumanity to man throught history,
>and while Tudjman's rambling prose never made him a bestselling historian, 
>Serbian desire to portray Croats as "genocidal people who should be kept
>under Serbian domination in order to protect the world" has meant that Tudman's
>book would become a target.  To see what kind of conflict which is going on, 
>read the following paper:
>
>Ljubo Boban: "Jasenovac and the Manipulation of History", 
>             East European Politics and Societies, 
>             Vol. 4, No. 3, Fall 1990, pp. 580-592
>
>Mr. Stojanovic continues to manipulate history, trusting that it is too
>obscure for his audience.  But, one can get out of his trap very easily:
>by consulting the mainstream historians and their writings.
>
>Sincerely,
>
>Josip
>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: ask@cbnews.cb.att.com (Arthur S. Kamlet)
Subject: Re: Egg Creams (was Re: Proof of the Decline and Fall)
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories,  Columbus, Ohio
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 23:02:55 GMT

In article <1992Aug20.133137.27509@cbnewsl.cb.att.com> saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (samuel.saal) writes:
>In our next lesson, we should probably discuss the right way to _drink_ an
>egg cream.  This is an art in itself.

I won't spoil Sam's fun by revealing that secret.

But if anyone wants to know the right way to drink a Yoo-Hoo:

  1. Hold bottle upside down, insert into mouth
  2. Suck out the Yoo-hoo without letting any air into the bottle.
     (requires pretty powerful sucking at the end. If you
      can't do that and have to let air in, the newly
      aerated Yoo-Hoo isn't that bad either!
  3. Avoid Yoo-Hoo in cans!
-- 
Art Kamlet  a_s_kamlet@att.com  AT&T Bell Laboratories, Columbus
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: lexier@fraser.sfu.ca (Lyle Lexier)
Subject: Re: 2 Israeli Students Want to Meet/Stay wi U.S. Peace Groups 1-2 Days
Organization: Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 00:31:09 GMT

ah881@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Joyce Brabner) writes:


>I will begin hosting two Israeli teenagers for 3-4 months,
>starting this October.  My guests are interested in seeing
>the U.S.A. by way of a special AMTRAK or Greyhound pass,
>and they want to stay with families-- ESPECIALLY people
>who are environmental activists, or working on peace, social/
>economic justice issues, towards racial harmony, etc.
>They would also like to visit some American university
>campuses.
> 
>Can anyone suggest ways for my friends to find hosts who
>will take them in for 1-2 days per stop?  They want me to
>make it very clear that they are both willing to earn their
>keep, and they both speak good English.
> 
>Do you know of any networks of people interested in having
>guests?  I can provide letters of reference from Americans.
>One student was my guest last year, and is a lovely person.
>Please e-mail any ideas.  Thanks!

>-- 



I COULD HOST THEM FOR A COUPLE OF DAYS IF THEY COME TO VANCOUVER, B.C., 
CANADA. 
 
Lyle Lexier
 
-- 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Lyle Lexier        | There should be no discrimination against any person   |
|lexier@fraser.sfu.ca | for his/her race, sex, or sexual orientation.          |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: A fine book...
Date: 14 Aug 92 17:50:39 GMT
Article-I.D.: usenet.1992Aug14.175039.25708
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio, (USA)


   I have just completed reading a book by Hyam Maccoby.  It is a
study to determine if the roots of anti-semitism are in Christian
theology.  "Judas Iscariot and the Myth of Jewish Evil" begins on
its fascinating quest for truth by searching out the character ofof
Judas.  Since Maccoby's thoroughly researched scholarship shows a
strong likelyhood that the Judas story is a total fabrication, he
goes on to determine how this myth was created.  The reason why a
Judas character had to be created was studied in one of Maccoby's
earlier works, "The Sacred Executioner."  The character of Judas,
of course, evolved into ALL Jews for ALL time.  And it is the odd
need on the part of Christian theology to have Christ killers who
shall pass on this 'guilt' for all time that is the driving force
of anti-semitism.
  Maccoby also shows that it is not only the 'guilt' that makes
the invalidation of the Jews so necessary.  It is also the nature
of Judaism itself that Maccoby shows is so threatening to beliefs
that are at the core of the Christ myth.
   Maccoby feel that there is an unconscious haterd of G-d in the
Christ mythology.  The conscious mythology says that G-d loved us
so much that He was willing to sacrfice his only son.  But dply
buried in the subconscious is the knowledge that G-d DEMANDED the
death of his son in expiation of sins commited in disobedience to
his cruel moral demands.  This sacrifice is sold as G-d providing
a merciful escape for humanity from eternal damnation.
   Maccoby show how differently Judasim sees things.  The laws do
not represent an impossible moral standard, as they are viewed by
Christian theology.  He points out that G-d's message that that a
human morality is possible.  In Judaism, G-d has never condemned,
or damned humanity, and so does not have to engineer a rescue, by
the torture of a divine victim.  It is precisely because Judaism,
which teaches that people are capable of moral responsibility, is
constantly insisting on the possiblilty of morality for all, that
it is such a threat to Christian mythology.  If Judaism is right,
that salvation is possible through behavior, then the death Jesus
will have been for nothing.
  The development of these notions are done superbly in this fine
work.  I highly recommend it.
-- 
"The tree of liberty must occasionally be nourished by the blood
of tyrants and of patriots."                    Thomas Jefferson
"Hello? Information?  Would you please give me the home phone of
Pat Buchanan?...Yes.  His address as well, thank you very much."
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: hayim@locus.com (Hayim Hendeles)
Subject: Re: more of ...can of worms....
Organization: Locus Computing Corporation, Los Angeles, California
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 21:54:33 GMT

In article <1992Aug12.203524.22085@eng.umd.edu> rig@eng.umd.edu (Ronald Greenberg) writes:
>In article <1992Aug11.195514.649608@locus.com> hayim@locus.com (Hayim Hendeles) writes:
>
>>Why is everyone making such a big deal over the tallis? In fact, the 
>>custom is in most Ashkenazic communities, that one does NOT wear a
>>tallis before they are married. (There are Kabbalistic reasons
>>cited for this in the Sefer Taamei Haminhagim, for those who care
>>to look).
>
>>I suppose some wish to wear the tallis in the synagogue in order
>>to feel "Jewish". Perhaps they do not have ample opportunity
>>to feel "Jewish", and hence need to search for new ways.
>>
>>There is enough Mitzvos the Torah did give us, without having to
>>go out and invent new ones. If we kept those, we wouldn't need
>>to search for temporary doses of Jewishness.
>
>I didn't think we had made a big deal over it.  It seems to me that
>you are protesting too strongly.  It happens that I am not married and
>do not where a tallis, which I indicated is the dominant minhag in
>Orthodox synagogues.  But the other approach is perfectly valid via
>Orthodox sources.  Obviously, I have no problem with your minhag,
>since I do it myself, but you shouldn't object to the other minhag.
>-- 
>
>Ronald I. Greenberg	(Ron)		rig@eng.umd.edu

My comments were based on those of the original poster who had
listed a number of criticisms against an Orthodox synagogue that
he had prayed in. The Tallis happened to be one of his criticisms,
which I chose to respond to.

Hayim Hendeles
From: sethr@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (seth.r.rosenthal)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: become jewish ?
Date: 19 Aug 92 18:41:11 GMT
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories

In article <3997@moscom.UUCP>, de@moscom.UUCP (David Esan) writes:
> In article <1992Aug14.220035.19125@elroy.jpl.nasa.gov> ejk@coral.JPL.NASA.gov (Elya Kapelyan) writes:
> >|> to a Jew (halachically or not).  I have met a couple (both non-Jews)
> >|> who were refused by a Sephardic rabbi and then converted into
> >|> a Chasidic group.  I think the rabbi was from Syria.
> >
> >	How do they justify this (halachicly)?  It seems to be way out of 
> >the mainstream of Jewish practice.
> 
> The Ba'al Koreh in my shul is the grandson of the Chief Rabbi of the Syrian
> Jewish community (now mainly in Brooklyn).  They decided that conversion in
> the US were not the result of a sincere wish to become Jewish, but a wish
> to marry a Jew, or to advance in business.  They refused to do any more 
> conversions.
> 
> I do not remember if they will accept converts from other groups of Jews, or
> will not accept them.
> 
btw - the newserver has made the original posting look like it was
Elya's actually it was mine, Elya's is the reply.

Actually this last sentence makes my point.  There should be
no need for an Ashkenazi Jew to convert to Sephardi.  Should
I wish to attend a Sephardi shul, I just need to show that
I'm Jewish (I assume 3 generations of Jewish female ancestors
and evidence of circumsion should do this) then perhaps learn
the Sephardi minhag.  Any other attitude is equivalent to saying
"Well your not really a Jew because your Ashkenazi."

I wonder if such a person considered Rabbi Meir of Rothenburg
to be a Jew?  How about the great French Talmudists?  Rabbi Horowitz?
Rabbi Isserles?


	Seth Rosenthal
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: lgold@callahans.Cadence.COM (Lynn Gold)
Subject: Re: Are there any truly kosher butchers?
Organization: /mnt4/lgold/.organization
Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1992 08:11:54 GMT

In article <1992Aug12.143348.3657@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca> jgoldber@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca (Joel Goldberg) writes:

>   A weird thing happened to me when I went to get a chicken yesterday.
>   The store owner wouldn't sell it to me until I had told him what
>   torah I had learned that day. I told him Pesachin 49b, and so got
>   the chicken. Anybody know how this idea is further developed?

Reminds me of the time I stumbled upon a kosher butcher in San Francisco.
I should preface this by saying I don't have stereotypical Jewish looks;
I've got natural dark blonde (gold-colored, really) hair, blue eyes,
and an aquiline nose.

Anyhow, I walked in and asked the butcher how much the kishka went for.

He said "$4.00/lb."

He then looked up and saw the black ribbon on my left side (my father
had just died).  He then "corrected" himself.

"Uh, excuse me -- that's $3.00/lb."

--Lynn
--
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?<&QY97(@=V5R92!T;R!H97)E(&%B;W5T('1H:7,A"F%P
`
From: gene@cs.bu.edu (Gene Itkis)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Judaism - one or many? (was Re: targeting Jews (was Re: more of ...))
Date: 20 Aug 92 15:40:01 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Department, Boston University, Boston, MA, USA
Originator: gene@csd

In article <57357@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin) writes:
>
>We know from the writings of many that there was no single Judaism near
>the end of the time of the Temple.

This, I believe, is a delicate issue. For example, I do not think it would be
justified at the time of Shamai and Hillel to say there were two judaisms: one
according to Beit Shamai and one according to Beit Hillel. As the talmud
explicitely states they are both [the same] "judaism" (talmud, of course, does
not use the term), simply it notes that we should follow Beit Hillel. Judaism
always "suffered from schizophrenia" (while I use negatively loaded words for
self-pun, I think this reflects one of the strongest, if not THE strongest,
virtues of judaism as a tradition.

>There are many of us posting here who believe that we are practicing what
>God has meant for us to do, but who do not accept Orthodoxy. What is more
>Jewish? 

In fact to me it sounds like what could be less jewish! And it has nothing to
do with orthodoxy whatsoever! Simply, by making such a remark a person is
stating that he has some privilage to know what G-d meant. I believe this is a
generally non-jewish attitude, whatever context (O, C, or R) it appears in. The
whole issue is to do not what G-d meant, but what He said. And the whole
arguement is what about what He said. As soon as "what He meant" enters the
picture we are steping outside the domain of jewish thought. That to me is a
(the) message of the famous midrash of "lo bashamaim hi" (not in the Heavens is
she (Tora)).

> According to many posting here, it is the detailed observance of
>what they call halakhah; 

what halakha really is is a discussion/specification of what G-d said, and
never what He meant.

>those of us who disagree do not deny them their
>right to do so.  But even within halakhah there are restrictions on 
>forcing others; Hillel summarized Judaism as 
>
>	What is hateful unto thee, do not unto thy neighbor.
>
>Would you not object to your neighbor imposing judgments with which you
>disagree on you?

He did add "go and learn", didn't he? And he imposed that without worring that
the implication of ignorance may be hateful. Neither he worried that this very
statement above is an imposition. One can also recall many instances in rather
violent history of judaism where things hateful onto oneself were in fact done
onto the neighbors. This is not, as usually in judaism, a sweeping statement.
One has to go and learn. (and so do I - so I stop...)

-- 
 ---
	Gene Itkis		(gene@cs.bu.edu)
From: allen@golem.ssc.gov (Michael Allen)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: more of ...can of worms....
Date: 17 Aug 92 18:59:20 GMT
	<ALLEN.92Aug13134956@golem.ssc.gov>
	<1992Aug13.195959.17405@blaze.cs.jhu.edu>
	<ALLEN.92Aug13155154@golem.ssc.gov> <2425@israel.nysernet.org>
Reply-To: allen@ssc.gov
Organization: SSC Laboratory, Dallas, TX

>>>>> On 14 Aug 92 08:00:21 GMT, warren@nysernet.org (Warren Burstein) said:

In article <2425@israel.nysernet.org> warren@nysernet.org (Warren Burstein) writes:

Warren> In <ALLEN.92Aug13155154@golem.ssc.gov> allen@golem.ssc.gov (Michael Allen) writes:

>Whether someone is poisoning their body with certain drugs
>or poisoning their Neshama with treif, we all have a responsibility to
>try and do something.  Don't we?

Warren> Our responsibility is to observe the mitzva of tochecha and all
Warren> of its halachot.  Tochecha is a very difficult mitzva, and if the
Warren> Tanaim were doubtful if it was possible in their time, we should
Warren> consider the possibility that we might not be so good at it, either.
Warren> We might go further and ask if some attempts at tochecha not only
Warren> don't fulfill the mitzva, but might have the opposite effect of that
Warren> which was intended.

Of course you are right.  The whole discussion began when I asked for
sources and was told: "I don't need no stinking sources and stop
telling me what to do, you ignoramous!"  (OK, so its not a direct
quote :-)

Anyway, Warren, thank you for the rebuke and I will try harder.

-Shalom,
 Michael
--
===================================================
But those who toiled knew nothing of the dreams of 
        Those Who Planned;                         
And the minds who planned the Tower of Babel       
        Cared nothing for the workers who built it.

	-Metropolis
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: lms@TorreyPinesCA.ncr.com (Max Stern 310-524-6152)
Subject: Seudat Mitzvah (was: Re: Bris)
Summary: Is a sheva brachot dinner a seudat mitzvah?
Keywords: sheva brachot, seudat mitzvah
Organization: NCR (Torrey Pines Development Center)
Disclaimer: This posting does not neccessarily reflect the opinions of NCR.
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 92 20:55:01 GMT

In article <1992Aug20.194130.7542@nynexst.com> schwartz@nynexst.com writes:

[...]
>
>Let's distinguish between two things.  A meal after a brit milah is a
>seudat mitzvah, a meal which is either directly commanded or which celebrates
>the observance of certain commandments.  Other seudot mitzvah include
>the three Shabbat meals, and a meal eaten at the conclusion of the
>(in-depth) learning of a book of the Torah or a tractate of the Gemara.
>I would argue that not eating one of these meals is not a severe violation
>of something, but that "optional" is too strong a word to describe them.
[...]

Ok, a new sub-thread:

What other meals fall into the category of seudat mitzvah?

Specifically, what about the meal following a wedding, where the shev`a
brachot are repeated?  What about shev`a brachot dinners during the
week following the wedding?

I ask, because my wedding will be in 30 days...
-- 

 |\/|  /_\  \/
 |  | /   \ /\                      Max.Stern@TorreyPinesCA.ncr.com
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: nyu
Subject: Re: Irony continues in our history
Organization: New York University
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 19:20:06 GMT

In article 14656@husc3.harvard.edu, stojanov@husc10.harvard.edu (Milan Stojanovic) writes:
> 
> I will post during next few days the relevant parts of Tudjman's book.
> I will be posting that on soc.history and soc.culture.yugoslavia.
> I will avoid soc.culture.jewish, since some part might be extremely 
> offensive, and I will not do editing of Tudjman's book.


Thank you for sparing us Jews the horrors of written words (will
you be doing the translating?). I guess I had you all wrong. Bless
you.
 
> Regards,
> 
> Milan n. Stojanovic

No, our regards.
From: warren@nysernet.org (Warren Burstein)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: more of ...can of worms....
Date: 13 Aug 92 07:17:55 GMT
Reply-To: warren@nysernet.org
Organization: Mail to News Gateway at Wang Labs

> In article <1992Aug7.020813.7158@cbnewsl.cb.att.com> stank@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (Stan Krieger) writes:

>     6. Why am I not supposed to wear a tallit here?  (As far as I was
>	concerned, it was "standard" to wear one after the Bar Mitzvah.)

While I was once in a shul (The Jewish Center in NYC) where they asked
me to put on a tallit even though I normally don't, I've never heard
of a man being asked to not wear one if it's their practice, even if
it's clear that the individual is below the legal age of marriage in
that state.
-- 
/|/-\/-\       The entire kitchen		Jerusalem
 |__/__/_/     is a very bitter apple.
 |warren@      But the farmer
/ nysernet.org is worried.