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SCA Digest                  Mon,  7 Sep 92       Volume 5 : Issue 605 

Today's Topics:
                            SCA 2500 C.E.
                  Pentacles (was Re: consort gender)
              Using period words to refer to mundanities
              cc:Mail SMTPUUCP 2.0 Undeliverable Message
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 7 Sep 92 19:59:44 GMT
From: Josh Mittleman <mittle@watson.ibm.com>
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center
Subject: SCA 2500 C.E.
Message-Id: <1992Sep07.195944.33122@watson.ibm.com>
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu

Greetings from Arval!  

Bertram New Father drew an analogy between medieval tournaments and
American football.


> I wonder -- how far does the analogy of 
> 
>          Modern-football <==> Medieval-tourneys

Not very far, I think.  

Modern football is an entertainment for the masses; I know no evidence that
the medieval tournament as practiced in France, England, and the Lowlands,
attracted any audience from outside the nobility.

Modern football players are professionals, paid by wealthy owners to earn
them money.  In the medieval tournament, the weathy patrons took part in
the tournament, they didn't just sponsor it.  Indeed, by the late 14th
century, participation in the tournament was restricted to knights, and
eventually to knights descended from knights.  (On the other hand, there
were professionals on the tourney circuit, and it was a matter of prestige
(though not profit) for a patron to support the best tourneyers.)

The tournament was more intimately a part of noble culture, rather than
simply an entertainment.  In some manuals of chivalry, tournament combat
was considered one of the three venues for a knight to display his prowess
(after the Crusade and warfare).  A display of skill on the tourney field
could lead to recognition, position, rank, and power; when was the last
time you heard of a retired linebacker becoming CEO of Xerox?

Perhaps a more apt analogy for modern football is the Roman Circus.

===========================================================================
Arval Benicoeur                                       mittle@watson.ibm.com

------------------------------

Date: 7 Sep 92 19:47:27 GMT
From: Josh Mittleman <mittle@watson.ibm.com>
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center
Subject: Pentacles (was Re: consort gender)
Message-Id: <1992Sep07.194727.38856@watson.ibm.com>
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu

Greetings from Arval!  I had written:

> The swastika and the pentagram may not be registered in SCA armory
> because the corporation does not want to give its sanction to the use of
> these symbols which are intimately associated in the modern mind with
> mass murder.

Raedwynn asked for some clarification:

> I would like you to clarify just why you think the public associates
> "mass murder" with pentagrams? Weird things, bizarre cults, but I have
> never seen a pentacle get the kind of negative reaction one has to a
> swastika.

The Mason murders is one excellent example; there are others.  For example,
a few years ago the media was swamped with reports of a "Satanist cult"
operating across the US-Mexican border, kidnapping young men and women and
slaughtering them.  The pentacle figured heavily in their symbolism.  In
much of this country, the pentacle is seen as _the_ symbol of Satan and
evil.  In the media, it is uniformly associated with Satanism, and the
bloodiest sicko Satanist are always the ones used to illustrate the dangers
of Satanist cults.  I am well aware that the pentacle has other, peaceful
meanings, but the one most prevalent in the common imagery of modern
America is decidedly bloody.

> The society is not interested in whether or not it might give it's
> "sanction" to these symbols by allowing them to be displayed; it states
> quite clearly in the section of the Corpora on religious  freedom /
> tolerance that symbols may not be displayed which might be termed
> coercive, intolerant, etc. by anyone else. 

I'm afraid you've mis-remembered Corpora.  Corpora talks about religious
ceremonies & discrimination of the grounds of religion, but has nothing to
say about religious symbols.

The following passage is quoted from the Board's ruling on the use of
pentacles in SCA armory; if you like I will send you the entire ruling.  As
you see, the ruling has nothing to do with religion or religious symbols;
it has everything to do with whether or not the SCA, Inc. chooses to
sanction the display of the pentacle, and the possibility of damage to the
Society's reputation.

  The Board has a duty of care for the whole organization.  We heard from a
  number of people who have had problems in the communities because of
  perceptions of the SCA as not merely tolerating, but actively
  encouraging, various anti-social activities.  Again, the rightness or
  wrongness of their perceptions is not at issue; those perceptions are
  simply part of the larger environment within which the SCA must operate.
  We can reasonably expect that the SCA will come up against similar
  perceptions in the future, and we cannot reasonably expect outsiders to
  understand the subtleties of authority underlying 'registration,' which
  to them will inevitably imply official recognition, approval, and
  sanction. (quoted from the cover letter to the 4/91 Laurel Letter of
  Acceptances and Returns, which in turn quotes from a letter from the
  Board of Directors)

===========================================================================
Arval Benicoeur                                       mittle@watson.ibm.com

------------------------------

Date: 7 Sep 92 20:48:52 GMT
From: Barbara Nostrand <bnostran@ds5000.dac.northeastern.edu>
Organization: Northeastern University, Boston, MA. 02115, USA
Subject: Using period words to refer to mundanities
Message-Id: <7357@ds5000.DAC.Northeastern.edu>
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu

Gentles!

"car" spelled "carre" is a Middle English word derived from Norman
French and ultimately from Latin "carrus" which means cart.

"carriage" spelled "cariage" is also a Middle English word derived from Norman
French and ultimately derives from "carier" which means to carry.

Substitutes for "autocrat" differ according to the nature of the event.
For example, the "autocrat" of a scholae or university event might be
called "chancelor" ... interestingly enough, "chancelor" might be a good
replacement for "troll" since it derives from "cancellarius" meaning
"doorkeeper" in Late Latin.  "Chancelor" is spelled "chaunceler" in
Middle English.

"Steward" derives from Middle English < Old English "stigweard" from
"stig" (hall) and "weard" keeper.  Now it appears that the possibly
the best generic word for "autocrat" is pre-empted by the President
of SCA, Inc.  However, I do not see how this is necessarily so.  It
may still be possible to use the title as long as it is clear that
the "steward" in question is not the "steward" of the SCA.

Now for a minor exercise in reconstructive linguistics.  "gate"
derives from Middle English < Old English "geat".  Thus, "troll"
could possibly be replaced with "geatweard".

                                        Your Humble Servant
                                        Solveig Throndardottir
                                        Totally Ignorant

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 07 Sep 92 15:13:04 pst
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SCA Digest                  Sun,  6 Sep 92       Volume 5 : Issue 603 

Today's Topics:
                          Robin hood recast
                             Colored tape
                Schedule of events / Is there an FAQ?
               A thought about Rialto - "Guru" FAQ list
                Scottish Gaelic newspaper "Uinneagan"
                       Hello and some questions
                  bunny round and other weird words
                    Great diesel beasts at Pennsic
                   A thought about Rialto (2 msgs)
                    Great diesel beasts at Pennsic
                            consort gender
                    Great diesel beasts at Pennsic
                            consort gender
                           multiple titles
                          Baby Announcement!
             Multiple titles (was Edward Zifran of Gendy)
        safety for marshals (was: Re: Town Battle at the War)
                Baldrics (WAS:Re: safety for marshals)
                         safety for marshals
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 4 Sep 92 16:34:45 GMT
From: Sam Bassett <optilink!samlb@bloom-beacon.mit.edu>
Organization: Ex-Hightower type
Subject: Robin hood recast
Message-Id: <12147@optilink.UUCP>
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu

In article <715422381.F00002@ocitor.fidonet> Joe.Bethancourt@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Joe Bethancourt) writes:
> The Sheriff of Nottingham: (I take the Fifth Amendment!)

        Randall of Hightower (R.I.P., sadly) of course!

> King Richard: Siegfried v. Hoefflichkeit

        Excellent!

> Prince John: (see Sheriff!)

        Harold of Breakstone.

        . . . This from far-off & ancient times . . .

-- 
Sam'l Bassett -- System Administrator         (among other silly things)
Work: DSC/Optilink, 1310-C Redwood Wy, Petaluma CA 94954; 1-707-792-7253
Internet: samlb@optilink.com                  UUCP: uunet!optilink!samlb

 -----------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Sep 92 16:03:25 EDT
From: Tim McDaniel <mcdaniel@adi.com>
Message-Id: <9209052003.AA07149@adi.com>
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: Colored tape

Keradwc an Cai writes:
> I use a similar guideline, and have expanded it to the general question:
> 
> What was done to solve <this problem> in period?
> 
> If the situation never came up, _then_ check out non-intrusive 
> modern solutions.

Or if the situation never came up in period, maybe there's something
wrong with your re-creation of the period.

-- 
Daniel de Lincoln, Burgh of Cynnabar, Midrealm.  Nomen hac aetate:

Tim McDaniel                 Applied Dynamics Int'l.; Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
Internet: mcdaniel@adi.com                UUCP: {uunet,sharkey}!amara!mcdaniel

 -----------------------------

Date: Sat, 05 Sep 92 07:21:25 GMT
From: Peter John Harrison <peterh@netcom.com>
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)
Subject: Schedule of events / Is there an FAQ?
Message-Id: <=cnnvab.peterh@netcom.com>
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu

Is there an FAQ for events in the West?  Or if not, could someone contact
me with this information (I dropped out for a number of years, but would
like to get back).

Specifically, BTW, when / where is October Crown???
===============================================================================
peterh@netcom.com
415-433-5500 (work)
(Gregory of Malvern) 

 -----------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1992 07:29:16 GMT
From: kalter@unh.edu
Organization: University of New Hampshire  -  Durham, NH
Subject: A thought about Rialto - "Guru" FAQ list
Message-Id: <2479385@gloin.unh.edu>
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu

   > > ..if we had moderators people could send questions to...
 SB> i'm agin' it.  It would restrict the free flow of info...

    The original poster had a nice idea, but had no word for it and had
the misfortune to pick a word that meant something he didn't mean.
The original post seemed NOT to be about blocking direct posts to the
list, but rather about squelching the usual series of messages like:
        "Does anybody out there know anything about (X)?"
        "No, but let me know what you find out."
        "duh, i thinx i heard somebody say once but i forget exactly"
        "Beats me, have you tried to...."
        "My friend could answer that in a second; I'll ask her this Friday"
..that leads up to the *really informative* message:
        "B.J. asked (X); I know the answer, and the answer is (...)!"

    Now, how is this going to happen?  By blocking access to the list? No.
By arm-twisting? No.  By sending NastyGrams? No.  By beefing up the
"off-topic police" thought control squad? No.  Simply by directing the
first message (voluntarily) to a particular person who is known to be
good at digging up answers, and has taken a vow to post all such answers
to the list.  
    How does the original inquirer know this person is well-informed
and good at digging up answers?  Because there is a periodic proclamation
which names all sages, wise women, and oracles.  Look Ye here.  These
are all the doors on which it profits a man to knock.  Ask elsewhere,
and Ye may come away wanting an answer, and addled, to boot.

    Such a list of Masters of Lore has the added advantage, that if I
see that someone knows a great muchness about something I fancy, I may
be moved to boldly ask for the cook's tour, where before I may have
stilled my tongue for lack of a name.  Shall we not do this??

 -----------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1992 08:44:40 GMT
From: Craig Cockburn <cockburn@edieng.enet.dec.com>
Organization: Digital Equipment Co. Ltd., Reading, England
Subject: Scottish Gaelic newspaper "Uinneagan"
Message-Id: <1992Sep5.091118.28650@rdg.dec.com>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic,soc.culture.europe,sci.lang,rec.org.sca,soc.culture.canada,alt.native,soc.culture.new-zealand,soc.culture.australian
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu

Please circulate widely

The third issue of the new Gaelic newspaper "Uinneagan" (=windows) has
just been published. This excellent development for Gaelic is well
worth a read. It's 16 A3 pages, and consists almost entirely of
Gaelic only articles with no translations. 

There is news, pictures, letters (from New Zealand and Germany), cartoons, 
adverts, book reviews, a story, and so on.

One item in the paper (book your accomodation now!) is that the 1995 Mod
will be in Golspie, just north of the Dornoch Firth and near the new Gaelic
learning centre "An Ceathramh"

Uinneagan costs one pound sterling per issue and is published four times
a year. To subscribe, or more more information on Scottish Gaelic, please
contact:

Comunn na Gaidhlig
5 Caolshraid Mhicheil
Inbhir Nis
Alba/ Scotland
IV2 3HQ

Comunn na Gaidhlig
5 Mitchell's Lane
Inverness
Scotland
IV2 3HQ


Fon/Phone +[44] (463) 234138       (0463) 234138
                   or 226472        
Facs/Fax  +[44] (463) 237470       (0463) 237470

 -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Craig Cockburn, Digital Equipment Co. Ltd, Reading, England.     Suas
  Internet: cockburn@edieng.enet.dec.com                           leis
  UUCP:..!decwrl!edieng.enet.dec.com!cockburn                      a'
                                                                   Gha\idhlig!
  Views here are my own, and are not necessarily those of Digital

 -----------------------------

Date: 3 Sep 92 10:19:53 GMT
From: Steve Rennell <wulf@sloth.equinox.gen.nz>
Organization: Lethargy Inc.
Subject: Hello and some questions
Message-Id: <715515593snx@sloth.equinox.gen.nz>
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu

Unto the visitors to the Rialto does Ulf of Sjaelland send Greetings, 

I have been reading this group on and off for about a year now and finally I 
can post!!!

I am resident in the Shire of Southron Gaard, Caid, New Zealand, and have 
just been lumbered with the post of Territorial Marshal, (acting till 
confirmed due to insufficient reluctance (I was on the Phone..)). We just 
finished getting together a set of mixed combat rules that would allow us to 
fight similarly to Lochac, and yet still be part of the Kingdom of Caid. It 
recently got approved by the Earl Marshal using 1 inch rubber blunts 
provisionally, till the heavies get used to being shot at. 

Now the Society 1992 Combat rules just arrived, and the minimum blunt sizes 
are listed as 1 and 1/4 inches, (so now we are going to have to re-write the 
rules...)

What, if anything, will Lochac's reaction to this be, since it would be good 
if our blunt specs and Lochac blunt specs were the same, since they are our 
nearest neighbours and I'd like to visit, and have them visit us, with a 
minimum of equipment hassles.

Wulf

On a different tack...
Would anyone who has the address (E-mail or otherwise) of Mistress Berengaria 
de Montfort of Carcassonne please E-mail me, since I lost contact a few 
months ago... 

 -----------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1992 13:32:16 GMT
From: "Alexander of Kiev (mka Carl Alexander" <carl@silver.lcs.mit.edu>
Organization: The Rialto
Subject: bunny round and other weird words
Message-Id: <1992Sep5.133216.15094@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu>
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu

Angharad ver' Rhuawn writes:
>
>In article <23008@sybase.sybase.com> leighann@sybase.com (Leigh Ann Hussey) writes:
>>Branwen writes:
>>>
>>>A bunny round is actually a short Spanish half-round....
>>
>>Ha!  When *I* first saw that shield, 7 or 8 years agone, they were
>>calling it a "Wankel" -- as in the shape of the rotary engine...
>
>Regionalisms keep surprising me!  Around here, a wankel is a small triangle,
>often somewhat rounded in the points, the sideds, or both, but always a
>triangle and just about always equilateral.
 
I don't think this is a matter of regionalisms; I think either Leigh Ann's 
source was using the wrong word, or she misunderstood Branwen's definition.
A Wankle is,  of course, rotary-engine shaped; sort of a three-axis 
equilateral ellipse:  gently curved sides, sharply curved corners, each 
of the corners (and each of the sides) identical; the bunny-round is a 
heater with a square top and a semi-circular bottom.  Two entirely 
different shapes.
 
Alexander of Kiev                       Carolingia, East

Carl Alexander                          Harvard Square, Cambridge, Mass.
carl@silver.lcs.mit.edu 

 -----------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1992 12:26:42 GMT
From: "Alexander of Kiev (mka Carl Alexander" <carl@silver.lcs.mit.edu>
Organization: The Rialto
Subject: Great diesel beasts at Pennsic
Message-Id: <1992Sep5.122642.13214@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu>
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu

I wrote:
 
>>>I suspect the State of Pennsylvania would be happy to permit us to
>>>engage in a roadside beautification project.... 
[Specifics of my suggestion for planting trees along I-79 to block 
the view from the road, thus giving the gawkers nothing to gawk at &
the truckers nothing to honk at, omitted for bandwidth.]
 
Corun MacAnndra replied:
 
>> I know from personal experience that the Cooper's would welcome and help
>> for improving the campground, and they do own a backhoe. Whether you can
>> get the permission of the state to plant is another thing....
 
and Duncan Forbes added:
 
>I would be happy to help also. I also think that if the trees are on the
>Cooper's land there is little that will concern the state. 
 
True.  There are several reasons why I suggested planting the trees on
the State's right of way:  Planting just inside the fence would put 
the trees in the middle of what is currently a path, and moving 
the path would cut into the available camping space.  Also, I-79
is atop a fairly steep embankment along most of it's frontage with 
Cooper's Lake; the higher up that embankment we can plant the trees, 
the sooner they will be tall enough to block the view.  So, asking the 
Coopers' permission to plant on their land would be a fallback if the
State were uncooperative.
 
At this point, I'd like to gather some information & then, if it looks 
viable, touch base with the Pennsic planning people.  Are there any 
Pennsylvania residents out there who are interested in this project 
who'd be willing to act as the contact-point with the State beauracracy?
I'm willing to draft the correspondence (carefully vague & not mentioning 
the SCA); I just think there'd be fewer irrelevant questions if the  
State's contact were a Pa. resident.  ('So, why is somebody from 
Massachusetts so interested in beautifying a Pennsylvania road?')
 
Also (& far less likely), is there anyone out there with good contacts 
in the timber industry?  Someone who might be able to swing a discount, 
or maybe even a donation, with to regard some saplings for a good cause?
 
Alexander of Kiev                       Carolingia, East

Carl Alexander                          Harvard Square, Cambridge, Mass.
carl@silver.lcs.mit.edu 

 -----------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1992 17:53:34 GMT
From: Dave Liebreich <davel@news.arc.nasa.gov>
Organization: NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA
Subject: A thought about Rialto
Message-Id: <1992Sep5.175334.6155@news.arc.nasa.gov>
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu

Greetings unto the (limited) Rialto, from David Waxthorn.

In article <12148@optilink.UUCP> samlb@optilink.UUCP (Sam Bassett) writes:
>       Despite the recent rash of people flicking lit matches at each
>other over the net here, I still prefer an open, unmoderated forum.
>

You know, since the mail-to-newgroup gateway at MIT went down (thus
limiting the content of rec.org.sca to those articles posted to it
directly), it's been fairly peaceful here.

Hmmmm . . . 

=========================================================================
David Waxthorn                                  David Liebreich
Principality of the Mists                       NASA Ames Research Center
Laurel Kingdom of the West                      Moffett Field, CA

 "The opinions expressed above are not necessarily those of my liege-lord"
                           doo dah doo dah

 -----------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1992 18:00:21 GMT
From: Dave Liebreich <davel@news.arc.nasa.gov>
Organization: NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA
Subject: A thought about Rialto
Message-Id: <1992Sep5.180021.6898@news.arc.nasa.gov>
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu

Greetings (again) unto the (full) Rialto, from David Waxthorn.

I just wrote:
>
>You know, since the mail-to-newgroup gateway at MIT went down (thus
>limiting the content of rec.org.sca to those articles posted to it
>directly), it's been fairly peaceful here.
>
>Hmmmm . . . 
>

I just noticed that it's back up (the gateway, rather than the content).

Oh well.  No offense?

=========================================================================
David Waxthorn                                  David Liebreich
Principality of the Mists                       NASA Ames Research Center
Laurel Kingdom of the West                      Moffett Field, CA

          "Liege-lord?  I don't need no steenking liege-lord!"
                           doo dah doo dah

 -----------------------------

Date: Sat, 05 Sep 1992 11:17:36 -0500
From: Dave Aronson <Dave.Aronson@f120.n109.z1.fidonet.org>
Subject: Great diesel beasts at Pennsic
Message-Id: <715719654.F00002@blkcat.UUCP>
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu

Many good gentles have written on the planting of trees alongside the road in
order to block the mundanes' view of Pennsic.  The Coopers have a sign, within
their bounds, next to the road.  Were we to plant trees, we may block the view
of the sign, thus losing the Coopers some advertising.  There is also the fact
that we would be blocking the view to /their/ land in the first place.  Even if
the State does not mind our planting along the road, it behooveth us to obtain
the say-so of the Coopers aforehand.

 -----------------------------

Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1992 01:27:04 GMT
From: "Hossein Ali Qomi (mka Gregory F. Rose" <greg@silver.lcs.mit.edu>
Organization: The Rialto
Subject: consort gender
Message-Id: <1992Sep6.012704.9086@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu>
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu

Unto the good gentles of the Rialto does Hossein Ali Qomi send greetings and
prayers for the blessings of Allah.

Raedwynn aet thaem Grene Wudu recently posted:

>As for the same-sex consort question:
>I've avoided putting my $4 in so far. I've seen some truly homophobic
>answers, some merely stupid answers, and some vaguely acceptable answers
>(though one of the best of the latter, "It's not period," is, as far as 
>I'm concerned, balderdash. These are the CURRENT Middle Ages, and thank
>whatever deities you like we've progressed since the last ones. We don't
>tax serfs into the ground these days either (well, WE don't :-) nor do
>we lop the heads off of people we don't like for a living. 

And posted on behalf of Etain macDhomhnuill:

>Homosexual couples may not be period but neither is women's rights or
>tolerance towards Jews or many other things we could name. We don't
>not do those things just because they're not period, so not being period
>isn't really that good a criterion.

These remarks identify the problem quite well.  We have a choice.  We can
use one of two decision-rules in admitting or excluding practices from
our recreation:
        1.  Historical documentation of medieval practice;
        2.  The modern preferences, prejudices, and ideologies of modern
                people.

The first has, at least, the virtue of some degree of objectivity.  The
latter is entirely arbitrary, if enforced, or no decision rule at all.

By and large we tend to accept the second decision rule by default.  That is
why the SCA by and large has as much to do with the Middle Ages as quantum
mechanics.  Other people have every right to live their fantasies as they
choose.  I'm a little tired of having their fantasies imposed on my
historical recreation and even more tired of being told that their
fantasies have anything whatsoever to do with medieval history, as the
grotesque formula, "the current middle ages," implies.

We hear a great deal of lip-service paid to tolerance of people's "dreams,"
because any other course would drive people out of the Society.  The net
effect of the current decision rule is to drive out the medievalists.

In Service to the Society,

Hossein Ali Qomi/Gregory F. Rose

 -----------------------------

Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1992 02:42:38 GMT
From: "Alexander of Kiev (mka Carl Alexander" <carl@silver.lcs.mit.edu>
Organization: The Rialto
Subject: Great diesel beasts at Pennsic
Message-Id: <1992Sep6.024238.11589@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu>
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu

In article <715719654.F00002@blkcat.UUCP> Dave.Aronson@f120.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Dave Aronson) writes:
>Many good gentles have written on the planting of trees alongside the road in
>order to block the mundanes' view of Pennsic.  The Coopers have a sign, within
>their bounds, next to the road.  Were we to plant trees, we may block the view
>of the sign, thus losing the Coopers some advertising.  There is also the fact
>that we would be blocking the view to /their/ land in the first place.  Even if
>the State does not mind our planting along the road, it behooveth us to obtain
>the say-so of the Coopers aforehand.

I took all of this to be so obvious as to go without saying, but this
post makes it clear that I was wrong.  If the Coopers don't like the 
idea, then that would, of course, be the end of it.  It seems equally 
obvious to me that the appropriate channel through which to approach 
the Coopers would be the autocrat or the Pennsic planning commission.
And I can see no point in approaching those people without first 
determining whether the idea is viable:  discussing it on the Rialto, 
in order to find out whether anyone other than myself would be 
interested in working on such a project, seemed to me an obvious first 
step in the process of determining such viability.  It also seems to me 
a fundamental courtesy to not bother either the Coopers or the autocrat 
with a pie-in-the-sky idea, but rather to hold off until there might be 
something concrete to discuss.
 
I could call the Coopers right now and find out whether they have 
any objections. If they did, this would save me some wasted time 
and effort; if they did not, and the idea later turned out to be 
untenable for any of the dozen reasons I can think of off the top 
of my head, then I would have wasted *their* time.  I would rather 
risk wasting my own time.
 
Alexander of Kiev                       Carolingia, East

Carl Alexander                          Harvard Square, Cambridge, Mass.
carl@silver.lcs.mit.edu 

 -----------------------------

Date: 5 Sep 92 17:14:47 GMT
From: Sam Bassett <optilink!samlb@bloom-beacon.mit.edu>
Organization: Old, used cleric
Subject: consort gender
Message-Id: <12154@optilink.UUCP>
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu

In article <1992Sep5.005704.8573@news.cs.brandeis.edu> tabron@binah.cc.brandeis.edu writes:
>As a witch I would like you to clarify just why you think the public
>associates "mass murder" with pentagrams? 

        Charles Manson.

        You may not be old enough to remember "helter skelter" clearly,
and to have been exposed to the flood of anti-pentacle literature that
was dumped on the market in the early '70s.  It waas truly amazing, the
level of paranoia . . . .

>but I have never seen a pentacle get the kind of negative reaction one
>has to a swastika. 

        Yup. I'll admit _you_ probaably never have seen that kind of
reaction -- but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.  Ever been in the
back country in Alabama, Georgia, or Mississippi -- or the deep Central
Valley of California, for that matter?  Things are _very_ different
there.

-- 
Sam'l Bassett -- System Administrator         (among other silly things)
Work: DSC/Optilink, 1310-C Redwood Wy, Petaluma CA 94954; 1-707-792-7253
Internet: samlb@optilink.com                  UUCP: uunet!optilink!samlb

 -----------------------------

Date: 4 Sep 92 12:50:53 GMT
From: "T. Archer" <PA142548@utkvm1.utk.edu>
Organization: University of Tennessee Division of Continuing Education
Subject: multiple titles
Message-Id: <PA142548.275.715611053@utkvm1.utk.edu>
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu

In article <715557838.F00007@blkcat.UUCP> Henry.Best@f120.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Henry Best) writes:
>I have heard Viscount Viscount Viscount Viscount Sir Sir Master Master 
>Edward referred to as "His Etceteracy".........
>                                                Henry

HA!  I'll have to remember that one!

 -----------------------------

Date: 6 Sep 92 04:29:45 GMT
From: David Schroeder <ds4p+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Organization: Doctoral student, Industrial Administration, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Subject: Baby Announcement!
Message-Id: <ceeMYti00WB4Q2OX9d@andrew.cmu.edu>
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu

Good gentles --

We are VERY pleased to share the joyful news that:

   Elizabeth Kori Guildroy Schroeder

was born at 7:23 p.m. on Saturday, September 5th, 1992.         

Weight:  8 lbs. 1 oz.    Length: 21 inches

Our new daughter was born after 12 hours of labor.
Mother, child, and father are doing well.

Our thanks to all of you for your help and support thus far!

Much love --

  Dave Schroeder         Bertram of Bearington
  Amy Guildroy           Eromene Aspasia of Constantinople

  117 Gordon Street * Pittsburgh, PA 15218 * (412) 731-3230

  Barony Marche of the Debatable Lands * AEthelmearc * East

 -----------------------------

Date: 6 Sep 92 14:07:49 GMT
From: David Salley <salley@niktow.canisius.edu>
Organization: Canisius College, Buffalo NY. 14208
Subject: Multiple titles (was Edward Zifran of Gendy)
Message-Id: <1314@niktow.canisius.edu>
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu

Corun MacAnndra writes:
> Arval writes:
> >At the risk of sounding unbearably stuffy, I'd like to point out that
> >stringing multiple titles before a name...
> >
> >> Viscount Viscount Viscount Viscount Sir Sir Master Master Edward, 
                        [ stuff deleted ]
> >The correct usage is one title at a time, as appropriate.
> 
> I have the utmost respect. Given that I got the string from Ed, the fact
> that I would use it in a public forum as a jest he shares, is a measure of
> the respect I hold for the man himself. I am proud to know him and be counted
> among his friends, and would be so regardless of his place in the Society.

I'm still curious, _two_ knightings??  Story please?  Inquiring minds want 
to know.  ;-) ;-) ;-) 
                                                       - Dagonell

SCA Persona : Lord Dagonell Collingwood of Emerald Lake, CSC, CK, CTr
Habitat     : East Kingdom, AEthelmearc Principality, Rhydderich Hael Barony
Disclaimer  : A society that needs disclaimers has too many lawyers.
Internet    : salley@niktow.cs.canisius.edu
USnail-net  : David P. Salley, 136 Shepard Street, Buffalo, New York 14212-2029

THE LAST THREE WINNERS OF AETHELMEARC CORONET TOURNEY HAVE BEEN...
_A_riel       fighting for the wife of Sir Raimund  of Rhydderich Hael
_B_ear        fighting for the wife of Sir Ogami    of Rhydderich Hael
_C_hristopher fighting for the wife of Sir Carthalo of Rhydderich Hael
  "Hello? Sir Bedawyr? This is _D_agonell.  If you're not fighting for your
   wife Lena in the next Coronet Tourney, I have a proposition for you ..."

 -----------------------------

Date: 6 Sep 92 14:41:42 GMT
From: David Salley <salley@niktow.canisius.edu>
Organization: Canisius College, Buffalo NY. 14208
Subject: safety for marshals (was: Re: Town Battle at the War)
Message-Id: <1315@niktow.canisius.edu>
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu

Aldric MacGlynn writes:
> vance@control.com writes:
> <<<stuff deleted>>>
> >I would rather see some arrangement where the marshals can keep an eye
> >on the fighting without risking injury as in the Bridge Battle. Any
> >suggestions that address the safety of the marshals would be much
> >appreciated.
> 
> This is an idea that I've been kicking around for about a year now
> and would like some feedback.  It would help *all* field
> noncombatants.
> 
> In some heraldry, there are 'stains' which are basically a few
> 'natural dye' colors.  One of these is a rusty-orange color (I think
> it's called 'tenne').

Correct!  'Tenne' is orange.  The other often used one is 'sanguine' which is
blood-red.    Only senior heralds could tell sanguine from 'gules' (simple red)
on sight and then it would be a function of distance.  Tenne looks like a
gules tabard that was washed with just a little too much bleach.  This is one
of the reasons SCA doesn't allow stains.

> Now, for the rest of this article, I'll use the abreviation "SO", to
> stand for "safety orange".  Now, I'm not sure that I really mean SO,
> but I want a hue that is *bright* enough to be *quickly* recognized
> but not so bright as to be *jarringly* out of place.
> 
> We get the BOD to allow SO for a *few* devices.  One for field
> noncombatants (marshals, water bearers, field heralds, etc) and a
> second one for (ummmmm???) "semi-combatants".  I'm not really sure
> about *what* semi-combatants are because I've never seen them.  What I
> mean by semi-combatants are those people that you can walk "X" feet
> from and say "m'lord, you're dead".  I believe that some form of
> archer is in this class and so would scouts. Is this right and are
> there others that should be in this catagory?  A third device (and one
> that might not actually be needed) would be used to mark the "edge of
> the world" in things like Woods Battles.

You left chirurgeons out of non-combatants.  The class you call semi-combatants,
is known as lights.

> When I say device, I'm thinking that it would be on the front and back
> of a tabard.  However, perhaps a *wide* baldric (over 6" wide) of some
> set pattern could be done.  ...*can* a baldric-like device be done
> with proper heraldry?  I know there are rules for making various
> 'flags' (such as a standard or an ensign) from a device.
> 
> So, basically, these would be the *visual* equivallent of saying
> >>*HOLD*, do NOT hit me<<.

Essentially, you're describing the system that's already in place.

BATTLE RULES FOR STICK JOCKS (EK VERSION)
 ---------------------------
1.) If it's wearing a baldric, do what it tells you.
        Serious effort has been made to follow the KISS rule (Keep It Simple,
Stupid!)  Marshalls wear black, water-bearers blue, heralds green, chirurgeons
red.  Yellow, white and purple are still unused.  And I think one of the
first two would be better than safety orange.  Want lots of cheap white?
Go to Goodwill, Salvation Army, etc.  and pick-up a few dozen used bedsheets.

2.) If it has an _open-face_ helmet, tell it it's dead.
        Eastern scouts are NOT permitted to wear closed face helms.  We don't
want them mistaken for fighters in the confusion of battle.  Scouts are
used for reconnaissance.  We pride ourselves on our invisibility.  [I was
once killed by the warlord of the ealdormere forces who found me only because
he tripped over me while walking through tall grass.]  We _AREN'T_ going to
wear 'safety-orange' clothing in the woods.

3.) If it has a _closed-face_ helm, hit it. 
        This is why we don't allow scouts to wear fighter's helmets.

                                                       - Dagonell

SCA Persona : Lord Dagonell Collingwood of Emerald Lake, CSC, CK, CTr
Habitat     : East Kingdom, AEthelmearc Principality, Rhydderich Hael Barony
Disclaimer  : A society that needs disclaimers has too many lawyers.
Internet    : salley@niktow.cs.canisius.edu
USnail-net  : David P. Salley, 136 Shepard Street, Buffalo, New York 14212-2029

THE LAST THREE WINNERS OF AETHELMEARC CORONET TOURNEY HAVE BEEN...
_A_riel       fighting for the wife of Sir Raimund  of Rhydderich Hael
_B_ear        fighting for the wife of Sir Ogami    of Rhydderich Hael
_C_hristopher fighting for the wife of Sir Carthalo of Rhydderich Hael
  "Hello? Sir Bedawyr? This is _D_agonell.  If you're not fighting for your
   wife Lena in the next Coronet Tourney, I have a proposition for you ..."

 -----------------------------

Date: Sun, 6 Sep 92 09:12:27 -0700
Message-Id: <9209061612.AA22555@isi.com>
From: Kevin Davis Connery <kevin@isi.com>
To: rialto@isi.com
Cc: KEVIN@isi.com
Subject: Baldrics (WAS:Re: safety for marshals)

Dagonell, who probably _does_ know better, wrote:

> BATTLE RULES FOR STICK JOCKS (EK VERSION)
> ----------------------------
> 1.) If it's wearing a baldric, do what it tells you.
>       Serious effort has been made to follow the KISS rule (Keep It 
> Simple, Stupid!)  Marshalls wear black, water-bearers blue, heralds green, 
> chirurgeons red.  Yellow, white and purple are still unused.  And I think 
> one of the first two would be better than safety orange.  Want lots of 
> cheap white? Go to Goodwill, Salvation Army, etc.  and pick-up a few 
> dozen used bedsheets.

Another source of white -- often already cut and made into baldrics --
are those Masters of Arms, who, oddly enough, are often on the field
along with the rest of the fighters. (I can see a Caidan making that
mistake; Dagonell, shame on you! <g>)

> 2.) If it has an _open-face_ helmet, tell it it's dead.

And if it's a marshall, say 'oops', and NOBODY IS HURT. Sounds OK to me.

> 3.) If it has a _closed-face_ helm, hit it. 

...one presumes after whatever rules for engagement have been
established. (Lines count. But pipple _near_ a combat line without
'fighter's helmets' don't. [Dagonell statements didn't imply otherwise;
I just wanted to make sure.])

Keradwc
 -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 | Keradwc an Cai     |       Adfui, Feci        |  In the Mists of the West |
 |--------------------|--------------------------|---------------------------|
 | Kevin Connery      | Quality must be designed |   Speaking FROM, not FOR: |
 |                    | into software; it cannot |   Integrated Systems, Inc |
 | kconnery@isi.com   | be patched on afterwards |           Santa Clara, CA |
 -----------------------------------------------------------------------------

 -----------------------------

Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1992 15:31:50 -0500
From: Michael Squires <mikes@moose.cs.indiana.edu>
Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington
Subject: safety for marshals
Message-Id: <1992Sep6.153155.28696@news.cs.indiana.edu>
To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu

In article <1992Sep04.175328.20709@watson.ibm.com> mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman) writes:
>on the field who isn't in armor isn't a legal target.  Are there many cases
>of marshalls and scouts being hit by fighters?  Is there really a problem
>here to be solved?

Unfortunately it is fairly common for a marshall to be hit in a Pennsic
battle.  At Pennsic XX Duke Sir Corin du Soleil was hit in the face once
before he put on a scout helm, twice through the eyeslots after he put
the guard on.  I and Sir Belgar (sp?) both watched the bridge battle
while protecting Corin's legs and bodies with our staffs.

Sir Corin was hit by spears that were being rapidly withdrawn to avoid being
captured by the opposition, or by other accidents.  The structure of the
fortification was such that we had to stand at the exact point of conflict
in order to be near enough to see anything.

I've also had similar experiences in Crown Tourney, especially when a fighter
tends to use the edges of the tourney field tactically.  In one such case I
was driven against a wall by two of our best two-weapon fighters going at it
hammer-and-tongs.  I did have a talk with the fighters later.

There are two different ways of marshalling a large event.  You can stay out
of the way and be relatively safe yourself or you can try to stay close to
action and intervene when dangerous situations occur.  In some cases it is
necessary to take risks in order to allow a bout or battle to be completed
properly; in Crown Tourney I will interpose myself between fighters and
the edge and will not call hold unless I or the spectators will shortly
be in danger, in order to keep a fighter from using the edge of the list
tactically.  In such a case I will make contact with the fighters with my
staff well before the time that they endanger me so that they are warned
that they will soon be up against the edge.

Marshalls should always wear the tabard, and in major tourneys or wars a
steel cap that does not look like a helmet (a British WWI pot can be made into
a terrific medieval pot, and if painted or decorated does not look like
a helmet; I'm trying to get a morion for myself.  Hand protection is a good
idea, also.  On the other hand, if I ever have to marshall a pass or town
battle at Pennsic I may show up in full plate.)

Marshalls should always have loud whistles in major tourneys/battles, and
staffs that are clearly marshalling staffs and not spears or polearms -
having a black/yellow staff thrust in front of your eyes tends to calm
people down.  Marshalling staffs should meet rules for spears/polearms
as they may be broken accidentally.  When marshalling large events I also
tend to wear every piece of regailia that I have, it tends to help in getting
one's requests listened to.  My baronial coronet, however, is broken in two
places where I was struck at Pennsic XIX in the field battle, as I remember.

I've also seen marshalls run down by charging groups who didn't see them
in the way, or thought that the marshall was a fighter.  In some cases
I've seen marshalls interpose themselves in front of a charging group
in order to break a dangerous or illegal charge.

I've not seen a fighter deliberately strike a marshall; I have seen fighters
strike marshalls and scouts when they mistook them for fighters, or were
not aware of their presence.  It is also clear that inexperienced marshalls
are often in greater danger than either the fighters, the experienced marshalls,
or the audience.
-- 

Mike Squires (mikes@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu)     812 855 3974 (w) 812 333 6564 (h)
mikes@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu          546 N Park Ridge Rd., Bloomington, IN 47408

 -----------------------------

End of SCA Digest
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------------------------------

End of SCA Digest
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From: Tim@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Tim)
Sender: FredGate@ocitor.fidonet