HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: wisdom@geom.umn.edu
Subject: Re: The Date of NeXTWORLD Expo
Organization: University of Minnesota
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 22:40:36 GMT

In article <1992Nov9.163644.19896@rtsg.mot.com> steveh@rtsg.mot.com (Steve M.  
Hoffman) writes:
> In article <23690@galaxy.ucr.edu> mikes@velo.ucr.edu (Mike Shebanek) writes:
> >I wondered when the next NeXTWORLD EXPO would be held and I couldn't get any  
> >answers from NeXT so I called Moscone Center in San Francisco.  They told me  
> >they had a "NeXT EXPO" on the books for May 25-28.
> 
> Nice piece of investigation!  Looks like we also know about when we should
> hear about some new hardware too...  Nitro and/or NRW?  Well, looks like  
we'll
> have to wait until then to find out!  Later!

Good Grief!! More than 6 months before a 40MHz '040 ?!? That would be tragic.  
I'm pretty sure we'll see it before then.

I hope for NeXTs sake that they blow peoples socks of at NeXTWORLD EXPO.

- Scott Wisdom
wisdom@geom.umn.edu
From: szatrows@gandalf.rutgers.edu (John Kheit)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXT Prices: They appear too high for me!
Date: 11 Nov 92 06:49:05 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

I'm not going to argue a subjective point of 'if next is concerned
with us anymore'...  I couldnt hope to guess that kind of information.

But I think that saying that next is just a prettier interface is a
plainly LAME statement.  I'm not going to bother stating why NeXTstep
is more than just a pretty interface, but if thats why you bought a
next (as a trophy to parade around as a pretty interface) you've
really missed the boat on what this machine is all about.

later, John
-- 
NeXT Campus Consultant---Rutgers, the State University of New Jersey |my    %^)
John Kheit/monoChrome  |                                             |fried %-)
173 Westgate Drive     | Audix#5512                                  |brain %>)
Edison, NJ 08820-1163  | kheit@hangout.rutgers.edu,szatrows@gandalf.rutgers.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: philip@utstat.uucp (Philip McDunnough)
Subject: Re: NeXT hardware strategy
Organization: University of Toronto, Dept. of Statistics
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 11:54:16 GMT

In article <2812@tau-ceti.isc-br.com> jimc@tau-ceti.isc-br.com (Jim Cathey) writes:

[ ]
>
>But when it's the niche or the ditch...

The niche will lead to the ditch, so it's just a matter of timing with that
approach.
>
>What matters to _you_ is the OS, apps, etc.  What matters to them is
>to make enough profit over the long run to stay in business.  Right
>now, they do it with hardware sales.  The NS486 (which makes me sick to
>contemplate) they are testing the water with.

What matters to almost everyone on the planet, except possible for a few
systems' types who relish programming in C++, Objective C, etc..., is 
software. The NeXT needs shrink wrapped software. And that software better
run on computers that don't cost a lot. I do hope that NeXT is not counting
on sales of poor price/performance stations to stay in business. The world is
going the other way. Hardware costs are going down and performance up.
 
Apple used to justify charging a premium for their equipment on the basis of
the Finder. One day they woke up and found out that the people were not quite
so stupid. You now have them trying to lower cost inorder to compete ( too
late in my opinion) with an open hardware system with many vendors providing
hardware for next to nothing. If NeXt thinks that NS will sell computers that
should cost half the price, then they are in for a shock. People may find
them interesting, but then it's on down the aisle. And without larger sales,
you won't get software. You need software. To get it, you must have and entry
level system. The days of the BMW mentality, as I've said a zillion times, 
are finished in the computer world. What is taking effect is good. Basically
the tools to acquire knowledge, and knowledge itself, should be priced so 
that everyone can use them.

Philip McDunnough
philip@utstat.toronto.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: shawn@monitor.com
Subject: Re: NeXT Prices: They appear too high for me!
Reply-To: shawn@monitor.com
Organization: Monitor Company / IE
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 14:04:17 GMT

Doug McClure writes
>In <19062@ucdavis.ucdavis.edu> putzolu@toadflax.cs.ucdavis.edu 

[all sortsa stuff deleted....]

>If you want to talk about overpriced, the Mac is probably THE 
>most overpriced computer on the market. 50% or more of the price 
>you pay is pure profit.

This is not true anymore (I don't know if it was ever 50%, but it  
was fairly high).  Apple's margins on Macs are much lower - I  
don't know the number but it's a gigantic step lower than 50%.

>I remember when Steve Jobs said that they could make Mac's for 
>~$500 (back when he worked for Apple)

What it costs to make it and what it costs to sell it and support  
it and maintain it and fund R&D and warranty it (etc. etc.) are  
different things.  You can make a car for probably $2000, but  
warranties, R&D, corporate overhead, etc. etc. cost money.   
(Although Apple did have quite a margin - which isn't a bad thing,  
BTW - we're all willing to pay premium price for the best computer  
around (painfully obvious since we're whining about Macs and  
NeXTs))

>I remember when MacWorld (or some other such) had a price 
>breakdown on how much a Mac cost.

Yeah I remember that article too.  See the note about _costs_  
above.  Who gives a crap if a mouse costs 79 cents -- making that  
mouse work with the computer is another story.  Last time I  
checked, firmware and software folks ain't free.

The moral of the story is that comapnies have to make money, and  
you can't judge a product's "cost" by looking at the component  
costs (hell, the component costs of a Ferrari are probably only  
$20,000 or so, but folks plop down fractions of millions for the  
beasts).

All this said though, I think that both Macs _and_ NeXT's are  
overpriced, but not because I don't get the value from those  
dollars (I do), but because they're just pricing things  
sub-optimally, IMHO, and missing interesting opportunities to grab  
market share.

:-)
-- 
Shawn Broderick
Monitor Company / Information Engineering
Director, BCS NeXT
shawn@monitor.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: marcel@opal.cs.tu-berlin.de (Marcel Weiher)
Subject: Re: NeXT's binaries need a diet, or the solution to NeXT's multiprocessor problem.
Organization: Techn. University of Berlin, Germany
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1992 09:27:59 GMT

jfr@RedBrick.COM () writes:

>In article <83161@ut-emx.uucp> ifbb657@cc.utexas.edu (Douglas Floyd) writes:
>>[munch desrciption of intermediate binary code distribution with 
>> machine dependent compilation at each user's site]
>
>>NeXT will have something no other computer has dreamed of offering :-)
>
>  Its a great idea.  Just not very original (sorry to puncture your
>  balloon).  In fact, this issue has been under consideration by
>  OSF for some time now and a standard has been proposed.  Its called
[...details deleted...]

It's even less original than that.  Check out the March 91 Byte
International Section p. 117:  "Taos: An Innovatiion in Operating
Systems".  One of its many unique aspects is that its language(s)
emit VP (Virtual Processor), which is translated by the load
module.  At the time of writing, they had translators for
the Inmos Transputer, the MC68K and the PgC 7600, a 200 MIPS
6000 gate CPU that apparently never saw it to market.

Greetings,

	Marcel
From: starta@tosh.UUCP (John Starta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXT edu prices go UP!
Date: Sat, 07 Nov 92 21:08:56 MST
Organization: Phoenix, AZ

spagiola@frinext.stanford.edu (Stefano Pagiola) writes:

> Aaargh!  What is NeXT doing?
> 
> After weeks of discussion of the need for cheaper machines, guess  
> what?  The price here at Stanford for the cheapest available NeXT  
> just went UP!
> 
> On the previous price list, the cheapest NeXT listed was the 8/250  
> Turbo slab, which went for $3,851.  Not listed but also available  
> (according to bookstore sales droids) was the non-turbo 8/105 slab  
> for $3,400 (up $350 since its introduction).  Now the latest price  
> list is out and the cheapest available NeXT is the 16/250 Turbo Slab  
> for $4,483.  No, that is not a typo.  $4,483.  Edu. Granted that it  
> has 8MB more RAM than the Turbo system on the previous list, that's a  
> $632 increase.  $600 for 8MB RAM? Come on!  The 25MHz slab is  
> [...]

Could this be the result of the tariff on 4 megabit chips? (Trying to 
give NeXT the benefit on the doubt here...)

john

-- 
John Starta                                  tosh!starta@enuucp.eas.asu.edu
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live
 in the real world."   -- Mary Shafer, NASA Ames Dryden
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu (Garance A. Drosehn)
Subject: Re: NeXT edu prices go UP!  AGAIN!
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 00:55:01 GMT

jfr@RedBrick.COM () writes:
> gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu (Garance A. Drosehn) writes:
> >We also still have the 8/250 greyscale (I refuse to say "mono", 
> >since it is more than just black-and-white)...
> 
>  Well I hate to be pendantic, but it IS a monochrome system.  The word 
>  monochrome comes from two roots, mono- (meaning "one") and chromos 
>  (meaning "colored").

Realistically, many computer users think "Mac Plus screen" when told "mono".   
Therefore I prefer to say greyscale.  I understand the semantic argument  
behind monochrome, but I don't see what's so much better about saying "mono"  
than saying "greyscale".  It serves no useful purpose, and I personally  
think that the difference between 1-bit greyscale (which I want to be the  
only display which I want to call monochrome) and 2-bit greyscale is  
significant enough that it should be drawn attention to.

>  BTW, for precedent, B&W TVs are called monochromatic and they display
>  far more shades of grey than a NeXT.  Also, Kodak refers to B&W film
>  or monochromatic film (or panchromatic film) which indeed handles 
>  an almost infinite range of grey.  
> 
>  So the NeXT Station is indeed a monochrome system with a greyscale
>  (multi-luminance level) display capability.

While these are good examples, I still think that in the computer business  
it's better to use the term greyscale.  There are too many computer monitors  
out there which are really just black and white (no shades of grey).

>     :-)

Also note that I never did say that it was *not* monochrome, all I said was  
that I refuse to use that term, in favor of a more descriptive one...   :-)

--
Garance Alistair Drosehn     =     gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu
ITS Systems Programmer            (handles NeXT-type mail)
Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute;           Troy NY    USA
From: matthews@ecfa.jsc.nasa.gov (Michael C. Matthews)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: NeXTs shipping sooner than Quadras?
Summary: Apple has delays, too
Keywords: irony
Date: 5 Nov 92 20:13:26 GMT
Reply-To: matthews@ial7.jsc.nasa.gov
Organization: NASA/JSC Engineering Computation Facility

I was just perusing the latest (11/2/92) issue of MacWEEK when I ran
across this in a story headlined "PB 145, Quadra 950 still in short
supply":

  Two engineering glitches -- one in June traced to a batch of defective
  power supplies and a more recent delay for an unspecified reason --
  created a sizable backlog in orders for Apple's top-of-the-line system
  (see MacWEEK, Aug. 10).
  
  Although some Quadra 950 machines found their way to dealers and users
  in the fall, Apple is still short an estimated 20,000 units to meet
  market demand.
  
  "It took us three months to get one," said Roy Roper, an
  information-systems specialist in the School of Life Sciences for the
  University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign.  "Three months is an
  eternity for a faculty whose science depends on having a machine
  delivered in a timely fashion."

  In the meantime, Roper said, he and other university administrators
  have bought NeXT Computer, Inc. workstations instead of additional
  Quadras because "we couldn't afford to wait."
 
  "Ironically, we placed an order for another 950 two weeks ago, and it
  just showed up yesterday," Roper said last week.

I can only assume Roper & company haven't ordered a NeXT CD-ROM drive
yet... :-)  What I find amazing is that they were able to get their
hands on a NeXTstation in less than 3 months.  Of course, it's been
18 months since I bought hardware from NeXT (other than the CD-ROM
drive I'm waiting for), so maybe they're getting machines out the
door faster now.
--
Mike Matthews, ex-Tether Dude +------------->   matthews@ial7.jsc.nasa.gov
"Had the Shuttle on a String"  \_ Now accepting NeXTMail via KlugeNet(TM)!
Lockheed-ESC                  |  
Houston, TX                   |          *** WILL HACK FOR FOOD ***
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: steve@wc24.writer.yorku.ca (Steve Azmier)
Subject: Re: The Next NeXTWorld Expo
Organization: York University
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 20:04:08 GMT

In article <sg9eTB1w165w@tosh.UUCP> starta@tosh.UUCP (John Starta) writes:
> uunet!lkba!lkb (Larry Blische) writes:
> 
> > Since the 1st one was on the West coast I suggest that the 2nd one be  
on the 
> > East coast.  Say... Baltimore or Washington.
> 
> I think Boston would be a better choice.
> 
> john

** if there is a poll, i second the Boston choice!!

Steve Azmier			York University
Unix Consultant			4700 Keele Street
Email: steve@writer.yorku.ca	c/o Computer-Assisted Writing Centre
				530 Scott Library
				North York, Ontario, Canada 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: spagiola@frinext.stanford.edu (Stefano Pagiola)
Subject: NeXT edu prices go UP!  AGAIN!
Reply-To: spagiola@frinext.stanford.edu
Organization: DSO, Stanford University
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 92 21:50:32 GMT

Yesterday I wrote:
> Aaargh!  What is NeXT doing?
> After weeks of discussion of the need for cheaper machines, guess  
> what?  The price here at Stanford for the cheapest available NeXT  
> just went UP!
> ....  the latest price list 
> is out and the cheapest available NeXT is the 16/250 Turbo Slab  
> for $4,483.  No, that is not a typo.  $4,483.  Edu. 

Well guess what?  I just got the latest price list and price have  
increased AGAIN!

The cheapest available NeXT listed is still the 16/250 mono Turbo  
Slab, but it now lists for $4,787!

It is painfully obvious that NeXT is completely abandoning the edu  
market.

For comparison, a Sun ELC 8/207 17" mono is $3,106.  Add a few  
hundred dollars for more RAM, and you have a system just as capable  
as a Turbo Slab for $1,500 less.  How many students do you think will  
be willing to pay $1,500 for the privilege of running NeXTSTEP?
Also for comparison, a Quadra 950 8/230 with 16" color monitor is  
$6,580, compared to $6,371 for a NSC Turbo 16/250 with 17" monitor.   
A <$200 price advantage isn't going to overcome the much greater  
software range available on Macs.

I'm glad I got my machine when it was affordable.  I'm sad that my  
next machine is most unlikely to be a NeXT, because I love the box.   
But at current trends (1) I won't be able to afford any NeXT, and (2)  
NeXT will remain stuck in its low-volume, few-apps,  
everybody-else-thinks-its-irrelevant(*) trap because it will have  
priced itself out of all markets but niche price-is-no-object  
business markets.


(*) what does this mean?  It means that PhotoCD is being ported to  
SUN while Kodak asks 'who?' when asked about possible NeXT ports.
--
-
Stefano Pagiola
Food Research Institute, Stanford University
spagiola@frinext.stanford.edu (NeXTMail encouraged)
spagiola@FRI-nxt-Pagiola.stanford.edu (NeXTMail encouraged)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: byer@adobe.com (Scott Byer)
Subject: Re: 64-bit CPUs (was DEC's alpha is "way fast")
Reply-To: byer@adobe.com (Scott Byer)
Organization: Adobe Systems Incorporated
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 18:30:26 GMT

Steven T. Abell writes

>> Partially true.  The standard 'char' is 8 bits, and on a char-by-char
>> basis, 32- & 64- bit processors tie.  However, a 64-bit processor
>> can do >string moves and compares close to twice as fast as a
>> 32-bit, other >things being equal.

> No, they can't, in general. Please note that my comment is phrased
> in terms of bus interfaces. Try doing a *general* full-width string
> move where you often have unaligned data. i86s do it at a
> substantially higher cost for unaligned data; 68Ks will do the
> aligned cases only, and *crash* on the unaligned cases. There is
> *no way* to correct this problem short of 8-bit comparisons. Without
> a bus interface that none of the vendors seems to want to develop,
> even a 16-bit CPU is no better than an 8-bit machine for these
> problems.

Pardon?  This is true only if you assume a brain dead strcpy
algorithm.  An intelligent algorithm, which always grabs an aligned
64-bit word, and uses masks for the beginning and ending can indeed
run nearly twice as fast as the same algorithm on a 32-bit machine.
There is no reason all the quad-words in the middle of the string
can't be copied as is.

--
Scott Byer                             NeXTMail: byer@mv.us.adobe.com
Adobe Systems Incorporated               These are *my* opinions, and  
1585 Charleston Road, P.O. Box 7900        do not necessarily reflect
Mountain View, CA 94039-7900             the opinions of my employer.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: rsrodger@wam.umd.edu (Yamanari)
Subject: Re: NeXT edu prices go UP!  AGAIN!
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1992 14:13:33 GMT

In article <1992Nov8.045644.6863@cubetech.com> andrew@cubetech.com writes:
>>> the other hand they have another group clamoring for low-cost  
>>> workstations.  Hard to satisfy both groups at once, especially for a  
>>> company of NeXT's resources.
>>> etc....


	As much as I hate the idea of dedicated controllers, 
	I do feel that an ARM610 with, say, a meg of memory
	(total cost: $150 + glue) dedicated to handling 
	Display Postscript, and a cheap bitblt chip, 
	woudl give NeXT a _lot_ more bang, and do so
	cheaply.  A faster processor is _not_ the best
	solution to a lot of the problem (i.e. slow video).



>Don't expect anyone from NeXT to come out an make a public statement
>of NeXT policy on the net regarding this.  That just doesn't happen,
>no matter what the company.


	Fair enough.


>The people at NeXT marketing have access to a lot more information
>than we do; like just who is buying NeXT computers the most, and for
>exactly what.  Hey, for all we know, 70% of all NeXT's could be going
>to governments (foreign and domestic), which could account for the
>apparent lack of marketing.  When they tell me the logic behind what
>they do, or not do, it does make sense.


	Approximately 85% of the Zenith Z-100 (i.e. 110,120) systems
	Zenith solf (approx 300,000+ in <3 years) went to the US
	government.  The machine was technically superior to its
	opponent (the IBM CGA/MDS PC was the only alternative at the
	time), and performed very well.  (i.e. 640x200x8 color graphics,
	640x480 interlaced, _fast_ video, 8088 for MSdos and 8085 for
	CP/M, S100 bus).

	The machine hasn't been made or sold for a good number of years.
	Selling to the government only is not a good path for the
	company to take.



>Believe me when I say that people at NeXT marketing want NeXT to be
>come the next Microsoft.  Yeah I wish they would put out superbowl


	Better than Bill Gates, at least.



>Not so with NeXT.  NeXT screwed up (unintentionally) the first time at
>bat, and now they have to fix it the hard way.


	They screwed up and continue to screw up.  They _need_ 
	some graphics hardware.  It took the Mac _years_ to 
	finally start crawling out of the slow-video 
	pit (and it's still not there for the majority of
	machines).  The PC is well on it's way (as much as 
	the PC can).  The NeXT, with it's full-window dragging
	and such, NEEDS some hardware graphics help.



-- 
 /============================rsrodger@wam.umd.emu====================\
| Snout: O Bottom, thou art chang'd!  What do I see on thee?           |
| Bottom: What do you see?  You see an ass-head of your own, do you?   |
 \NeXTMail accepted here......I'd sell my soul for Offline mail!!!..../!
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: Robert_La_Ferla@hot.com
Subject: NeXTWorld Expo East
Reply-To: Robert_La_Ferla@hot.com
Organization: Hot Technologies
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 22:41:35 GMT

NeXT and NeXTWorld should seriously think about holding the next NeXTWorld  
Expo on the East coast.  The key point is that NeXT needs more exposure.   
Sure, it may be more convenient for NeXT and West Coast developers but  
having shows on both coasts gives NeXT more exposure and credibility in  
the business community.

If NeXT were to introduce new technology and a public offering of stock at  
the next Expo, where do you think they would get more exposure: New York  
City or San Francisco?

Let me say that I personally would like to and will fly out to sunny  
California but I strongly believe that it makes much more sense for NeXT  
and NeXT developers to hold the expo on the East coast.

Robert La Ferla
From: mrothste@keiko.acs.calpoly.edu (Rothstein)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: The Date of NeXTWORLD Expo
Date: 6 Nov 92 20:27:58 GMT
Reply-To: mrothste@data.acs.calpoly.edu
Organization: Cal Poly State University, San Luis Obispo

In article <23690@galaxy.ucr.edu> mikes@velo.ucr.edu (Mike Shebanek)  
writes:
> 
> I wondered when the next NeXTWORLD EXPO would be held and I couldn't get  
any  
> answers from NeXT so I called Moscone Center in San Francisco.  They  
told me  
> they had a "NeXT EXPO" on the books for May 25-28.
> 
> See ya there!
> --
> 
> Mike Shebanek
> mikes@velo.ucr.edu
> Computing and Communications
> University of California, Riverside
> Riverside, CA.  92521

May???  Lets see that's only FOUR months later than last year.  Oh well.
I sure hop eit is worth the wait.  (I also hope I don't have to wait that  
long to get NS 486!!!

--
-Mont

   NeXTmail OK :-)
   President CP-NUG (Cal Poly NeXT User Group)
   mrothste@data.acs.calpoly.edu