HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: military@att.att.com (Bill Thacker)
Newsgroups: sci.military,soc.history
Subject: 50 Years Ago: Monday, 27 July, 1942
Date: 28 Jul 92 12:53:27 GMT
Organization: NCR Corporation - Law Department


From military@att.att.com (Bill Thacker)

Monday, 27 July, 1942

German forces begin eliminating pockets of Soviet resistance in the Don
River bend, and capture Bataysk.  The 6th Army begins a strong attack on
the Soviet bridgehead at Kalach.

Japanese soldiers force the Australians to abandon Kokoda, New Guinea.

The North American P-51 Mustang flies its first operational sortie.

Following the disastrous defeat at Rostov, where many Red Army soldiers
panicked and deserted, the USSR begins introducing numerous changes to the
army.  Discipline becomes severe: deserters are to be shot immediately.
The commissars are subordinated to military officers, and numerous new
decorations are introduced, including the Orders of Kutuzov, Suvorov, and
Alexander Nevsky, to encourage professionalism among the officers.

The Norwegian Church declares its separation from the Quisling government,
vowing to operate independently of or even against Quisling.

Reporter: patter@dasher.cc.bellcore.com (George Patterson)
Reference: "Ghosts" calendar for 1992.

--	--	--	--	--	--	--	--	--
Bill Thacker			            military@att.att.com
Send submissions for "50 Years Ago" to military-request@att.att.com

"At this time Australia, which has been orphaned, is showing a pitiful
existence earnestly requesting aid from America.  There is no need for me
to mention that the Imperial Government will not hold any hesitation if the
leaders of Australia still do not recognize the existing situation and
continue to offer a profitless resistance." - General Hideki Tojo
Newsgroups: sci.military
From: "Edward J. Rudnicki" (FSAC-SID) <erudnick@pica.army.mil>
Subject:  Re: Why execute spies?
Organization: NCR Corporation - Law Department
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 15:24:30 GMT


From "Edward J. Rudnicki" (FSAC-SID) <erudnick@pica.army.mil>


Russ Smith writes:
#Why is there a "tradition" of executing spies caught during
#wartime? What makes a spy sufficiently different from any other
#soldier that the spy should be killed?


One factor may be that life is cheaper during wartime, particularly
during major wars. I have in my library the memoirs of an American
soldier who served in the British Army before the US entered the
Great War. According to him executions for "cowardice" were fairly
common, but that these were listed as combat deaths for the benefit
of the folks at home, both family and the public.


Ed Rudnicki     erudnick@pica.army.mil     All disclaimers apply
"It demoralized them. Not to mention killed them."
     --- 3rd AD officer describing effects of DPICM in ODS
From: fiddler@concertina.Eng.Sun.COM (steve hix)
Newsgroups: sci.military
Subject: Re: some civil war firsts.
Date: 23 Jul 92 18:41:36 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Mt. View, Ca.


From fiddler@concertina.Eng.Sun.COM (steve hix)

>From ntaib@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Iskandar Taib)
>In article <1992Jul15.131921.26867@lawday.DaytonOH.NCR.COM> (steve hix) writes:
>
>>The Le Mat was invented by an American, Beaureguard Le Mat, from (I think)
>>Louisiana. (Forgive me, descendents of Dr. Le Mat, for munging the name.)
>
>Did some of these have up to ten rounds? I also recall some
>Confederate revolvers having two barrels: one that fired shots 
>from the rotating cylinder, and another one for a lone central 
>chamber. Weird looking guns.. I recall seeing these in some gun
>magazine years ago on a grocer's shelf...

That's the one.  A revolver with a built-in shotgun, sort of.

After you'd fired all your revolver shots, you could cock the
pistol, flip a pin to the other setting, and have one shot of
shotgun at your finger tip.  They're heavy, and I suspect more
than a little more expensive to make and acquire at the time
than equivalent pistols.

There were several different versions of the arm, such as officer's,
cavalry, and naval types.  Navy Arms (out in New Jersey) carries
reproductions of several types in their catalog.

If you frequent (or even just show up once) Civil War enactments,
you can probably see a couple of them in the possession of one or
another of the southern units.

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Of making many books there is no end...  |  What's wrong with chasing 
                       -- Eccl. 12:12    |  nebulae till 3 am?  |-(
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: sci.military
From: wdr@world.std.com (William D Ricker)
Subject: Re: Operation names
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 15:19:11 GMT


From wdr@world.std.com (William D Ricker)

Paul Robichaux (robichau@lambda.msfc.nasa.gov) writes:
> Will Martin <wmartin@STL-06SIMA.ARMY.MIL> writes:

>>Originally, I had thought and think I have read that such code names
>>were assigned for security purposes, and were on a completely random

>True. The difference between names you see in the media (Provide Comfort,
>Desert Shield, Frequent Wind) and those you don't is simply that
>publicly acknowledged operations have publicly acknowledged names.

As always, we probably won't get the requested current criteria, since
it's probably  classified well above the level of this net (;-).

I will note that even when names are supposedly randomly assigned, there
can be a problem.    According to the various books on the WWII British
Special Operations Executive, the list of random codenames was scanned
for selection by the case officers -- which resulted, given the Oxbridge
nature of the case officers -- in an inordinate number of puns in 
cover names.  I guess its a good thing that (a) Ultra was the other way
around and (b) the NAZI security agencies didn't have a good sense
of british humor.  I've been scandalized by the puns in some brit & us
formerly-secret codewords that have been publicized.
  EG, in /The Man Who Never Was/, Ewen Montague, and elsewhere, it is
documented that the codeword for the operation to plant false plans
for an invasion of Greece (cover op for Scicily/Sardinia) on the 
Gestapo by floating a corpse of a courier named "Major Martin" 
ashore in Iberia  was Operation Mincemeat.  Had the Gestapo or Abwher
officers who are docuemnted as having had momentary doubts of the authenticity
of the "plant" had heard through agents not controlled by the XX Committee
or a communications-security gaffe of an 
               "Operation Mincemeat: purpose-unknown",
the game would have been up.


-- 
Bill Ricker wdr@world.std.com      "The freedom of the press belongs 
(formerly wdr@wang.com)             to those who own one."

Newsgroups: sci.military
From: viking@iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson)
Subject: Re: Tracers
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames IA
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1992 18:10:03 GMT


From viking@iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson)

 ntaib@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Iskandar Taib) writes:

>Yes true but the concept is the same, except that there 
>isn't a human being in the loop and the radar that does 
>the aiming doesn't need anything other than the metal in
>the projectile. Do they use lead or is it some exotic 
>metal in the Phalanx projectiles? 

	The material is depleted uranium, one of the densent metals known.
It is _not_ radioactive to any extent, despite what some sailors might
tell the new seaman loading the gun in a fit of mislead humor.

<Dan Sorenson, DoD #1066 |"There'll be angels on Ariels in leather>
<z1dan@exnet.iastate.edu | and chrome, Ridin' down from heaven    >
<viking@iastate.edu      | just to carry me home." -- R. Thompson >
< ISU thinks I need more education, which they provide for a fee. >
From: billb@is.rice.edu (William Stenson Blackwell)
Newsgroups: sci.military
Subject: SAW vs. Stoner (was Re Tracers/SAW)
Keywords: A simple question
Date: 23 Jul 92 18:47:37 GMT
Organization: Rice University


From billb@is.rice.edu (William Stenson Blackwell)

Having never actually fired one, I was wondering if the Cadillac Gage/Stoner
MG of SEAL fame was similar to the SAW.  The Stoner had quite a nasty reputation
as being finicky about cleaning (even MORE so than the original M16A1 !?).  I 
realize that the SAW is Belgian, but I was wondering if the two were as similar
as the appear on paper.  They both seem to have a good reputation among their 
respective users for acurracy and ease-of-use in the field.  Anyone out there 
(Maybe a current or ex- Team member) who's fired both of them know?  Conjectures?


-- 

Bill Blackwell             P H P <==me!   "A just request is to be met
billb@owlnet.rice.edu     F L L F       in silence, by the act."
Houston, Texas, USA          8       -Dante Alighieri "Inferno" XXIV ln.77-78
Newsgroups: sci.military
From: Pekka.Riiali@lut.fi (Beke)
Subject: Re: Why execute spies?
Organization: Lappeenranta University of Technology, Finland
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 15:19:41 GMT


From Pekka.Riiali@lut.fi (Beke)

In article <1992Jul16.201006.2463@lawday.DaytonOH.NCR.COM> sun330!ur-guh.com!smith@uunet.UU.NET(Russ Smith) writes:

   Why is there a "tradition" of executing spies caught during
   wartime? What makes a spy sufficiently different from any other
   soldier that the spy should be killed?

   The basis for this question was the viewing of an old WWII
   newsreel showing the execution of a couple German soldier/spies.
   B-I-I-G guy and little guy -- little guy was none-too-happy
   about his situation. Didn't settle right...

   Russ <Smith@ur-guh.com>

The Basic difference between a spy and a soldier is that a soldier
wears a uniform or another visible mark that shows which sides he
belongs to. If there are no marks or the spy is in the wrong uniform,
it's usually thought that he or she are not fighting by the rules of
the war. 

--
+ internet:  riiali@kannel.lut.fi               ++ Pekka Riiali           +
+      irc:  Beke  ham:  OH5LUQ@OH5RDT          ++ Laserkatu 2 D 12       +
+ The evil that men do lives on and on..        ++ SF-53850 LPR   FINLAND +


Newsgroups: sci.military
From: jmc@sail.stanford.edu (John McCarthy)
Subject: Re: Why execute spies?
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1992 18:17:06 GMT


From jmc@sail.stanford.edu (John McCarthy)

My conjecture is that allowing the execution of spies came about
as an exception to the formulation of laws of war that forbade
the execution of ordinary prisoners.

Montaigne, French essayist who died in 1592, and is much celebrated
for his moderation, discussed whether, when a fortress was finally
captured, it was ok to execute the defenders of a fortress that had
refused a previous demand for surrender.  Montaigne thought that
on the whole it was a bad idea to execute them, but evidently it
was still a live issue in his day.

--
John McCarthy, Computer Science Department, Stanford, CA 94305
*
He who refuses to do arithmetic is doomed to talk nonsense.
From: wwo@vax5.cit.cornell.edu (Thomas Schoene)
Newsgroups: sci.military
Subject: Re: Phalanx Ammo
Date: 28 Jul 92 13:01:58 GMT
Organization: Cornell University


From wwo@vax5.cit.cornell.edu (Thomas Schoene)

In article <1992Jul26.175126.26163@lawday.DaytonOH.NCR.COM>,
billb@is.rice.edu (William Stenson Blackwell) writes: 
> I would assume, not having Jane's handy, that the Phalanx fires Depleted Uranium
> core ammo.  This is the round of choice in almost all of the U.S. military's 
> cannons (i.e. explosive propelled direct-fire weapon >.50 caliber)

This is a pretty sweeping statement.  In fact, for most applications DU is not
the round of choice.  The M61 cannons in most U.S. aircraft usually fire High
Explosive, Incendiary rounds, for example.  Even the big GAU-8 carried by the
A-10 often fires a non-DU API round.  Similarly, tanks, a big user of DU
rounds, also use HEAT rounds.

Theere are a variety of reasons not to use DU rounds.  If one wants
fragmentation DU is not a good choice and so on.  One of the main reason for
the use of other types is cost.  Depleted uranium is hellishly expensive.  If
you can get by with somethiing cheaper, it's not a bad idea.
-- 
Tom Schoene
wwo@cornella.cit.cornell.edu  -or- wwo@vax5.cit.cornell.edu
-------------------------------------------------------------------
"Whenever you're holding all the cards why does everyone else turn
out to be playing chess?"
Newsgroups: sci.military
From: shuksan!major@bcstec.ca.boeing.com (Mike Schmitt)
Subject: Re: Altered history of warfare
Organization: The Boeing Co., MMST, Seattle, Wa.
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 12:52:33 GMT


From shuksan!major@bcstec.ca.boeing.com (Mike Schmitt)


: Can someone post what the Scots Greys actually did at Waterloo? Some
: wargaming friend told me that what actually happened was they charged
: the French, then lost control and kept going. When this happens you 
: have effectively lost the unit until they can rally and reorganize. 
: The Scots Greys were supposedly a Dragoons regiment that wore strange 
: uniforms. In the movie "Waterloo" they were slaughtered by Napoleon's 
: lancers. 

  Off the hip (before I research my David Chandler books); The Scots Greys
  were 'heavy cavalry' - the Royal North British Dragoons.  the British were
  traditionally large on 'elan and agressive attacks but normally poorly
  mounted and undisciplined in their charges.  They would charge effectively
  but continue to melee' until their horses were blown and then their 
  leadership couldn't rally them.  Which is what happened at Waterloo.
  The Scots Greys charged down the slope against D'Erlon's infantry 
  (unsupported by French Cavalry) and routed the infantry.  However, the
  'Greys' kept charging and -disarrayed- swept up the hill in the face of
  the French Grand Battery (actually overrunning some of the guns).  The
  BETTER tactic would have been to dismount and spike the guns - but oh no
  not the aristocratic royalty-class gentry of British Cavalry!!  No No.
  In the meantime the French Lancers (Polish Red Guard) countercharged
  the now-blown milling about Greys - and soon joined other french cavalry
  countercharge just about dissemated the Greys.   Some few struggled back
  behind the safety of the British infantry squares - but the Greys (in
  today's terms) were now 'combat ineffective' and did not make any further
  appearances in the battle.  Sergeant Ewalt of the 'Greys' manage to 
  capture a French Eagle - and was sent back out of the battle with his prize.


  
-- 
Mike Schmitt - Disclaimer: These opinions are not my employer's.  My opinions 
are protected by the 1st Amendment of the Constitution of the United States of
America.  If you don't like it - get out of my country.   
"Professionals are predictable, it's the amateurs that are dangerous."
From: viking@iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson)
Newsgroups: sci.military
Subject: Re: Tracers
Date: 28 Jul 92 13:07:26 GMT
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames IA


From viking@iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson)

 liats3@cspyr1.cs.adfa.oz.au (LIANG TIAN) writes:

>  I am sure the USN uses depleted uranium for the projectiles.
>This is to give a better effect on the incoming ASM because of
>it is denser than lead. The Australians uses lead. Why? I think
>they don't like the enviromental effects. Don't know about the
>other countries.

	Something is wrong here -- lead is much more toxic than
depleted uranium, so the environmental issue shouldn't be the
problem.  Does lead actually reflect radar emmissions better than
uranium?  I somehow doubt it.  There's something more to this than
just radar and toxicity, but I can't figure it out.  Anybody know?
Newsgroups: sci.military
From: roeber@vxcrna.cern.ch
Subject: Re: depleted uranium
Organization: CERN -- European Organization for Nuclear Research
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 12:39:46 GMT


From roeber@vxcrna.cern.ch

In article <1992Jul29.125806.21769@lawday.DaytonOH.NCR.COM>, thughes@lonestar.utsa.edu (Toby . Hughes) writes:
> [...]
> Depleted uranium is, well, depleted.

It can still be fun to expose depleted uranium to a reactor.

Does anybody know how much d.u. we left lying around Kuwait and Iraq?

-- 
Frederick G. M. Roeber | CERN -- European Center for Nuclear Research
e-mail: roeber@cern.ch or roeber@caltech.edu | work: +41 22 767 31 80

Newsgroups: sci.military
From: jmc@sail.stanford.edu (John McCarthy)
Subject: Re: Marines, are they needed?
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1992 13:23:31 GMT


From jmc@sail.stanford.edu (John McCarthy)

Someone posted that the Marines exist to support Navy missions.  To
this layman it seems that the reverse is more nearly true and
will be more true in the future.  For example, Marines afloat
in the Adriatic provide a very credible threat to use force
in Yugoslavia.
--
John McCarthy, Computer Science Department, Stanford, CA 94305
*
He who refuses to do arithmetic is doomed to talk nonsense.


Newsgroups: sci.military
From: ulowell!usl.edu!jab0684@samsung.com (Boudreaux Jean A)
Subject: Re: Why execute spies?
Organization: University of Southwestern Louisiana
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1992 18:16:13 GMT


From ulowell!usl.edu!jab0684@samsung.com (Boudreaux Jean A)

Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 08:02:35 GMT
Apparently-To: ulowell!rex!samsung!sci-military@samsung.com

The movie in question mentioned by Iskandar was titled "Seargeant York"
, named after Sgt. Alvin York.
jean@usl.edu
 

Newsgroups: sci.military
From: ntaib@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Iskandar Taib)
Subject: Re: some civil war firsts.
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1992 13:41:13 GMT


From ntaib@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Iskandar Taib)

In article <1992Jul15.131921.26867@lawday.DaytonOH.NCR.COM> fiddler@concertina.Eng.Sun.COM (steve hix) writes:

>The Le Mat was invented by an American, Beaureguard Le Mat, from (I think)
>Louisiana. (Forgive me, descendents of Dr. Le Mat, for munging the name.)

Did some of these have up to ten rounds? I also recall some
Confederate revolvers having two barrels: one that fired shots 
from the rotating cylinder, and another one for a lone central 
chamber. Weird looking guns.. I recall seeing these in some gun
magazine years ago on a grocer's shelf...





-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Iskandar Taib                          | The only thing worse than Peach ala
Internet: NTAIB@SILVER.UCS.INDIANA.EDU |    Frog is Frog ala Peach
Bitnet:   NTAIB@IUBACS                 !

Newsgroups: sci.military
From: henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer)
Subject: Re: V-22 Osprey crash ?
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 12:46:42 GMT


From henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer)

>From twh18@isuvax.iastate.edu (Phoenix)
>	Oh, well, seems Navy doesn't has much luck about testing
>flight of their exp. aircraft.  Their F-14 crashed, (but
>F/A-18 didn't), now it comes to Osprey...

A few crashes during development of an advanced military aircraft are not
that uncommon.  You just don't hear about them much unless the program is
controversial.  It's hard to make much progress without taking some risks.
-- 
There is nothing wrong with making      | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
mistakes, but... make *new* ones. -D.Sim|  henry@zoo.toronto.edu  utzoo!henry

Newsgroups: sci.military
From: whitman@nssdca.gsfc.nasa.gov (Rusty Whitman)
Subject: Nukes removed from Europe
Organization: NASA - Goddard Space Flight Center
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 17:12:52 GMT


From whitman@nssdca.gsfc.nasa.gov (Rusty Whitman)

In a recent issue of Defense News there was a one paragraph article that
stated that the U.S. has notified its NATO allies that as of July 2 all
nuke mines, artillary shells, depth bombs, and short range missiles 
have been removed from Europe.  Does anyone know if all tactical nukes
have been removed?  I thought it strange that this was not big news
but I saw nothing in any of the major papers or on the TV network news
about it.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
"[W]e think it the height of reckless and extreme folly to address
'violent and vile profanity' to a Butte miner AND a Marine, while
such remarks to the miner OR the Marine require only courage."
		37 Mich.L.Rev. 874,887 (1939)

whitman@istp1.gsfc.nasa.gov (128.183.92.59) "Rusty Whitman"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroups: sci.military
From: Eugene Heiss (GWD) <heiss@brl.mil>
Subject:  Rifling
Organization: NCR Corporation - Law Department
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 13:03:30 GMT


From Eugene Heiss (GWD) <heiss@brl.mil>


Reference: Small Arms of the World by W.H.B. Smith

Exactly when rifling was first introduced and by whom is not known.         
Specific early examples of the use of rifling have been documented.

1476 An Italian Inventory lists "firearms with spiral grooved barrel".      
1611 Danish military rifle with rifling now located in the Woolwich Arsenal.
     The military use of rifling was introduced into Denmark by Christian IV.


Reference: Illustrated British Firearms Patents 1714-1853 by Stephen V.
           Grancsay and Merrill Lindsay.

1776 British patent by Captain (later Major) Patrick Ferguson.  This patent
     proposed making the groove larger in cross-section dimension than the 
     land.  Apparently, the pervious method of rifling produced lands and 
     grooves of the same cross-section dimensions.  Narrowing of the dimension
     of the land would decrease damage to the ball.

     

Newsgroups: sci.military
From: wwarf@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Wayne J. Warf)
Subject: Re: Why execute spies?
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1992 17:58:09 GMT


From wwarf@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Wayne J. Warf)

In article <1992Jul22.170635.20599@lawday.DaytonOH.NCR.COM> ntaib@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Iskandar Taib) writes:


>What was the name of that WW1 Sergeant who singlehandedly captured
>a whole battalion of Germans?....
>...This I don't find far fetched but the part about marching 
>off with several hundred prisoners I do...)

C'mon Isk, you mean Sgt. York. Probably the part about the prisoners
was closer to the truth than the rest of the movie <except he used
an M1911 instead of the P-08 used in the movie>. I don't know about
several hundred but he captured a bunch.
-- 
 +--------------------------------------------------------------------+
 | Wayne J. Warf -- WWARF@ucs.indiana.edu -- I speak for myself only  |
 |"Government is like fire, a dangerous servant and a fearful master" |
 +--------Off to the New Jersey Police State for a 10 day sentence----+

Newsgroups: sci.military
From: RKBA:THE 2ND DEFENDS THE 1ST <WWARF@ucs.indiana.edu>
Subject: (Pre-)WW2 unit insignia id
Organization: NCR Corporation - Law Department
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1992 13:41:15 GMT


From RKBA:THE 2ND DEFENDS THE 1ST <WWARF@ucs.indiana.edu>

Recently,two small mysteries collided. My father was a non-com in the 
U.S. Army from 1933-1945 and was in a number of diffeent units. He gave
me all his insignia a few years back. There was a screw back insignia
that he couldn't recall what unit it was for. Yesterday, while in a 
friend's surplus store, I came across some unit insignia pins that he had
purchased from acollector (retired army officer)). One was a larger 
version, apparently recently produced, clutch back version of the
same unit insignia my father gave me The collector had written the
units on the attached tag before sale. It said simply, "36th Infantry"
I checked my copy of "Armies, Corps, Divisions, and separate Brigades"
and can find no "36th Infantry. 

The device design is a single -point white star on a green hexagram.
The hexagram sits on a green and white heraldicwreath (i.e., straight,
not circular). The points of the hexgram are extended as follows:
     \
      \___
          \ 
           >
      ___/
      /
     /

Can anyone identify the unit BTW, the insignia doesn't match *any*
of those in "Armies, Corps, Divisions, and separate Brigades".
        

Newsgroups: sci.military