From: Uucp@ofa123.fidonet.org
Newsgroups: alt.music.filk
Subject: Perception and Cliques
X-Sender: newtout 0.02 Nov  5 1992
Date: 11 Nov 92  06:38:30

From  ucivax!heifetz.msen.com!dgsi!puck!markb
From: markb@puck (Mark Bernstein)
To:   filk@ofa123.fidonet.org
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 92 08:31:20 EST

harold feld (hjfeld@acs.bu.edu) wrote:
: Hello from Harold.

Hi. <g>

: Um, well, I certainly did not mean to start a flame-war.

Me neither.

: One person listed a long list of perfectly legitimate
: reasons why 'name' filkers may be off in a private circle
: somewhere, far from the main-sing.  All are good, legitimate
: reasons. 

As I've said, I agree completely.  The poster was Clif Flynt,
who's been writing and performing lotsa good stuff in filk
for over 15 years.

: 2 points: 1- people are not mind-readers, real
: motivations may have little to do with perception.

True, but filk (despite certain resemblances) ain't
politics.  If someone develops an opinion of me
based on rumor, innuendo, assumptions, and very little if
any real information, I tend to see that as a reflection
on that person, not on me.  Frankly, by now I'm hardened
enough that I heartily endorse the late Richard
Feynman's attitude.  (You may recall that his second
autobiographical volume was titled "What Do You Care What
Other People Think?")

: The answer
: to this is education.  Rather than jumping up and down on
: this poster, as someone did, we should take his words to
: heart and apply them to the situation next time it comes up.
: Always give people the benefit of the doubt. 

Well, I think the latter two sentences here are dead on, but
I might quibble with the word "education."  How do you teach
someone to not make unwarranted assumptions and judgements?

: 2- I was thinking
: more in terms of people who take over one of the listed rooms,
: not folks who go off into a corner.

An important distinction, and I'm glad you brought it up.  If
a room has been set aside for filkers, it should be open to
all filkers.  What people do in their own rooms, or off in a
corner, is generally their business.  (IMHO)

(Digression:  The status of a group of people in a hallway or
a corner of the lobby is something of a thorny issue.  My
take on it is that these folks are probably in a corner
because they didn't have a room to go to, and if they ask
(I would hope politely) others to not join in, that's their
right and the request should be honored.  Some may contend
that public is public, and no one should be turned away.)

: I sometimes think the problem may
: not be with 'name' filkers, but their fans.

*VERY* true.  Practically all the performers I know (certainly
all the top "names") are generous, given the chance.  OTOH,
I've seen "groupies" get rude on a number of occasions.
I'm of the opinion that other than a scheduled concert (and
there are plenty of those these days), a public filk should
be open to all, and no one should shut others down, no matter
how much they want to hear the object of their adoration.

: (story about Julia and her fans deleted)

Sometimes I think Julia was too nice to some people.  Trouble 
is, it's not fair to hold a performer responsible for the
behavior of the fans.  Some, like Leslie, have a knack for
dealing with them.  Some don't, and I don't blame them for
that.

: (story about Noreascon deleted)
: Now, perhaps
: those who told me this were malicious rumor mongers or
: perhaps those people leaving met some old friends and went
: off to hear this old friends latest song and....but I have
: no evidence for that, either.

Remember your own point about benefit of the doubt.  Yes,
it's possible that those people did go off because they
wanted a private circle.  But why assume it if you don't
know?  (And if that was the case, I'd say their only *possible*
mistake was in starting it up in a public area in the first
place.)

: I also remember Bill Sutton pushing very strongly for a
: ranking system within filking on the Apprentice-Journeyman-
: Master type.

Damn, now I'm even sorrier I can't make it to Chambanacon
this year.  I'd love to talk to Bill about this notion.
I'm not sure I *endorse* it, mind you--the question of "who
decides?" is a nasty one indeed--but I'd like to hear Bill's
take on it.

: As for the fellow who deliberately started a flame,

Well, that's not *quite* what I said . . . <g>

: you state that performers owe their fans nothing. True.
: But do not be shocked if you are then perceived as a
: standoffish jerk who writes good songs and plays well.

After 19 years in fandom and almost 18 in filk, very little
shocks me these days. <g>  For an answer, see my paragraph
on perceptions, above.  (Actually, that should be "a
standoffish jerk who writes good songs and sings well."  I
work a capella. <g>)

: Some 'name' filkers feel a certain 'nobles oblige' to
: newer filkers.  Some don't.  No shame to either, but I
: know which I like to sing/hang out with.

To make the point one more time (because I think it's
important) I *do* strongly believe in encouraging new
filkers, and I *do* spend time at the big filk and
working with said newcomers.  My point is that doing so is
*my choice*, not something I do because others expect it of
me, and I will *never* say or think a harsh word about those
who choose to gather in small groups of friends.

: 
: In Service,
: Yaakov Hamizrachi

All in all, an excellent post.  Thank you.

Mark Bernstein
markb@cimage.com

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