From: Tagi@cup.portal.com (Tagi Mordred Nagashiva)
Newsgroups: alt.mythology
Subject: Re: Whence the dragon?
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 92 18:03:30 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
  <1992Apr10.014052.7303@samba.oit.unc.edu>

9204.15 (Tax Day!)


Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
The word of Sin is Restriction.


Shava writes and I wrangle with her in response:

The problem with the dragon is that the dragon of the orient has about
as much to do with the dragon of europe as either of these has to do
with the dragon of modern fantasy fiction, which is to say, not much.

Even less, actually, since the dragon in modern fantasy fiction probably
derives some sentiment from both.


Response:

This, while 'scholastically' true, is actually false.  Dragons are large
beings composed of many different types of 'natural' animals.  They are
to be found the world over.  Their temperament has much to do with the
way that a culture feels about and treats Mother Nature.  You'll notice
that Oriental dragons are more likely to be beneficent, due to the popular 
perspective of Nature as friend, ally, or divinity.  In the West (i.e.
Europe) She's seen as fierce and ugly.  Well, you'd be fierce and ugly
too if you were considered an 'enemy of the divine' and had several
times been jumped upon in order to be tethered, bridled, tamed.

Modern fantasy fiction is largely a projection of Western ideas, but, as
our culture moves in more Pagan directions toward Nature, you'll find
Dragon becoming much more sweet and kind.  In some ways the modern stuff
is more accurate, when compared to the 'real mccoy'.


Shava:

The oriental dragon is a creature of air and mountain.  This dragon, or
lung (in mandarin) is a rarified creature, much like a spirit of the
elements.  The lung is a patron of emperors (5 toed, imperial dragons),
and is associated with fairly benign powers.


Response:

This is only partially true as I see it.  The Oriental dragon is a creature
largely of WATER and air.  Dragons bring the rains, which keep the crops
either well-irrigated or dry/flooded.  They, like their western counterparts,
are fond of 'water places', like wells, streams and rivers.  Where the western
variety is more likely to be found in a mountain cave, the eastern often has
a bejewelled palace on a river or ocean floor.  Of course the floor of the
water-body is simply the nexus into the 'dragon-world'.  Certainly I associate
Her with Earth, as an element, and this fits in well with Taoist alchemy, in
which the 5 elements (yes, they've got five of them) are rather encompassed
or centered by Earth.  'Spirit'?  Hmmmmmmm.  You'll have to do some fast 
talking to convince me of that one, Shava. :>


Shava:

The european dragon is a creature of earth, and generally has connotations
of evil, rapine, and suchlike.  Dragons are often portrayed as symbols
of evil incarnate, of the Serpent (of Eden).


Response:

Not only this, but the 'evil' is really earth-wisdom.  Papa Christ doesn't
want us to learn about Mama Nature, you see, because we might decide we
like Her more.  We have only been taught that Dragons are 'evil' because
it is politically expedient, and, it holds a certain truism when the Dragon
comes by and flames our asses for all the bad shit we do to the Lady whom
She serves.


Shava:

Other than that the representation of both is that of a winged reptile,
I am not sure they have much in common.  We don't refer to quetzocoatl
(the feathered serpent of mezoamerica) as a dragon, but he has a similar
sort of representation.


Response:

Who is this 'we'?  Quetlcoatl is certainly a dragon.  So is Tiamat.
In the west we have this foolish notion that we KNOW what a dragon IS.
Tsk tsk tsk.  Dogma-meters ready?  She's a composite, as I know Her.
What 'scholars' do and do not include as 'dragon' is entirely based upon
their whim.  Take a look sometime at both the similarity and the difference
between east and west (north and south, for that matter).  You'll come
to know more completely what a dragon is, beyond your cultural bias.
There are African dragons and polynesian dragons.  Some of them are rather
unusual.  One might ask exactly where does 'monster' leave off and 'dragon'
begin?  Good question.  I think this is largely a matter of convention -
i.e. a question people must answer for themselves.


Shava:

[some material omitted]

I doubt that the myth travelled east to west.  I don't have any available
material that dates the origin of either myth.  


Response:

What does this mean, exactly?  'The myth travelled' sounds like you are
referring to myth as some sort of fiction.  Preposterous!  Dragons are
alive and well.  If you haven't seen one, perhaps this is because She has
considered you unready.  I cannot be sure.

The origin of dragon stories is the dragon.  Just like the origin of stories
about President Bush is President Bush (well, most of the time).  If you
go about assuming that this is all some sort of dream, then the value of
myth itself becomes lost.


Shava:

However, I guarantee that neither had their origin in the Kimodo dragon,
which only came to the attention of literate cultures within my lifetime,
I believe.  There might have been some large lizard within human times
that inspired dragon legends, but if so, it was very rare or boneless...


Response:

Ahhhhhhhhhh    Materialism.  Well, let me say that I don't think you'll ever
'see' a dragon in the same way that you 'see' President Bush.  They are
much more sly and shy.  She's been hurt badly enough that She rarely
appears to humanoids in any case.  You'd go into hiding too, if you knew about
that nasty St. George fellow and Sigfried, Thor, Marduk, etc. etc...
ugly Heroes with nothing better to do than go around slaying Mama's pets.

Well, that's about enough out of me.  I'm liable to get myself into trouble
as it is, exposing these secrets to the masses.  :>  Hehehehe


Invoke me under my stars!   Love is the law, love under will.


Yours while thinking of Baron Munchausen,

Tagi
Fr. Nigris, O'
Newsgroups: alt.mythology