From: hartigan@ac.dal.ca
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc,alt.atheism
Subject: Re: Jesus & the Sin of the World
Date: 2 Sep 92 16:08:21 GMT
Organization: Dalhousie University, Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

In article <1992Sep1.212511.8879@tc.fluke.COM>, emery@tc.fluke.COM (John Emery) writes:
> In article <1992Aug26.130657.7148@ac.dal.ca> hartigan@ac.dal.ca writes:
>>
>>In article <1992Aug25.185242.8750@tc.fluke.COM>, emery@tc.fluke.COM (John Emery) writes:
>>> This is pure love.  No matter
>>> how much and how often we have wronged Him, He has shown us in the death
>>> of His Son, that He has chosen in advance to forgive anyone who confesses
>>                                                       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>Looks like a condition to me! What happened to unconditional love?
> 
> What does the Scripture say?  It says "God so loved the world that He
> gave His one and only Son that whoever believes in Him should not perish
> but have eternal life" (John 3:16).
> 
> It is for *whoever* believes.  No stipulations except believes that Jesus
> died for them, confessing their sins.          ^^^^^^ 

Notice that magic word? No stipulations EXCEPT.... There are stipulations - 
the "free gift" has a price. 
 
> Analogy:
> 
> Big Time Mortgage company was owned by Mr. Big Boss.  Big Boss's son,
> was given authority by his father over the company.  Although the son 
> was very wealthy due to the success of the company, he was very very kind.  
> Instead of spending His untold fortunes on himself, he offered to pay off 
> all the outstanding mortgages of the delinquent notes in his father's 
> company.  However the son was wise and knew that in doing so, many would

[...]
 
> So the son went to the delinquent borrowers with his benevolent offer.
> And oh the joy of those who accepted.

I know some pretty miserable Christians. 

> Their burden was gone, their debt
> was paid, and even more, Big Boss's son was even going to help them in
> their lives and work with them at the expense of his time - and he wasn't
> charging them for his service.

Yeah right! See below. You guys ought to be charged with false advertising.

> However, much to his surpise, the son found great resistance to his 
> offer.

Surprise??? He CREATED them! 

> Some were ashamed at their failure and denied they had spending 
> problems.  Some, who were proud, felt humiliated and didn't want to accept
> this charity, rather would pay off their debt by themselves.  Others didn't 
> trust him and thought if they admitted their problem, that instead of 
> paying off their debt, the son would repossess their house.  Others were
> offended that he had the audacity to pry into their problems, slammed the
> door in his face, telling him to never bother them again.

I don't know if you're deliberately trying to mislead here, or if you're
just following your doctrinal teaching unthinkingly. More below.

> 
> The son was hurt and perplexed. 

So much for omniscience.

> Yet he was very benevolent and had already
> decided to pay off their debt if they would cooperate.

After CREATING them and placing them in the debt situation, I think "benevolent"
is not quite the adjective you're looking for...

>  So he continued
> to reach out to them, trying to convince them they he only really wanted
> to help them. 

And they were skeptical? What a surprise!
 
> At his persistence, some became furious and threatened him,
> even though the son had the authority to repossess their house at any
> time.  Others, the more he reasoned with them, the more they denied their
> dilemma, made excuses, and even put the blame on him for lending them
> the money. 

Yep - because, in the terms of the analogy, he created them 
for no other purpose than to borrow it and then accept his forgiveness.
Yeesh... 
 
> Some, however, after a time, swallowed their pride and came 
> out and accepted his help.  They received his payment of their debt and
> looked at themselves honestly, realizing he was right.  What joy was theirs!

Come off it... "What joy was theirs!"  Christians are no happier than 
anyone else.

> 
> End of Analogy

Although my comments may sound a bit snarky, I don't mean to be harsh.
This is a very interesting analogy, and it comes closer to making sense than
anything else I have ever seen on this subject. In fact, at first I thought
it completely clarified the matter. However this analogy breaks down 
in some important ways. Most critically, our situation as human beings is in
no way analogous to that of the debtors in your story. A more accurate
analogy would be...

Analogy

A man was sitting on a park bench one day, enjoying the sunshine and spring
air. After a while another man came along and sat down next to him. 
	"Have you paid your debt off?" said the second man.
	"Eh??" said the first man, "What debt?"
The second man began to explain to the first man that everyone in the
world was in debt to the Big Time Mortgage Company.
	"I don't know anything about any debt," said the first man, looking
around for a policeman. 
	"Oh, you're in debt all right," said the second man. 
	"Prove it," said the first man. 
	The second man produced a translation of a translation of some 
ancient texts in which a man spoke about being the son of the Big Boss
of Big Time Mortgage Company.  The "son" was pretty vague about the whole
business, but another man, named "Poul," who claimed to have seen the "son"
soon after the "son's" public execution, explained the matter in detail,
even though he never even met the "son."
	"Sounds pretty flaky to me," said the first man, wondering if a 
policeman was EVER going to wander by. 
	"So all you have to do to get forgiven of your debt is agree
to accept that forgiveness," explained the second man amiably. 
	"Ok - if I've got a debt, than I hereby accept forgiveness. How's
that?"
	The second man sighed. "No, no, that's not good enough...you have to
PROVE you accept it by praying to `Son of Big Boss' every day. You have to
come to our meeting hall and join our organization, or a similar one, devoted
to the worship of Son of Big Boss."
	"You mean, some dead guy pushed a debt on me that I never wanted,
forgave me for it, and now demands that I worship him to thank him for that
forgiveness??" said the first man incredulously. 
	 "Er..well, sort of, yeah..." said the second man, who was unused to
such a formulation of the situation.
	"Well, let me think about it, Bud, and I'll get back to you,"
said the first man, shaking his head in amazement. As the second man headed off
down the lane, having spotted another soul taking in the morning air,
the first pondered the whole matter briefly, and then went back to 
listening to the birds sing and watching the leaves rustle in the breeze. 
After all, it was the twelfth such proposition he had received in the last week,
and no two of the guys ever said the same thing! One had talked about 
new prophets of Big Boss, another had insisted that all other spokesman of
Son of Big Boss were in fact sent by one of Big Boss' evil sons, not the 
forgiving son, another had said that he, indeed, was Big Boss' son himself.
	Fortunately, thought the man, the sunshine, the birds, and the
cool spring air remain. 

End of analogy.

> 
> Now, was the son unfair to those whose deliquent debts didn't get paid 
> off?  He had the right, fair and square, to repossess their homes at
> any time, for it was his father's money they had borrowed and were
> obligated to pay off.  Yet he chose to deny that right and pay off
> *anyone's* debt who would receive his help.  And those who would have
> nothing to do with him, he even waited patiently for a change of their
> heart.  Now, was his motives unloving even though some refused his
> offer?  Was he treating them cruely?  I would say no!

Yeah, right. HE created these beings and this whole "debt" situation,
Christian doctrine says. So, having put us in this situation, he gallantly
offers to get us out, IF we do X, Y, Z. If we don't, we get eternal punishment.
Forgive me for not being overcome with adoration...

> Therefore is confessing one's sins too big of a price to pay for receiving
> eternal life, forgiveness, eternity never ending of joy, and a Savior
> who will work now in this life to transform us and work in us to change
> sinful behavior?  

Don't be silly, comrade. I confess my sins. I know I sin like the dickens,
and I'm not happy about it, and I'm doing my best to fix it. However, your
doctrine states that I must have a deep conviction of the truth of 
Jesus' resurrection, and that I must go out and evangelize for it, and 
that I must go hang out with other people who have this conviction, and
that I must not do X, Y, Z  rules.  You're being misleading when you
say that all we have to do is accept the forgiveness. 

Sorry - many people are not able to muster up the conviction you demand. 
Just trying to be a good guy and trying to be intellectualy honest are
not good enough. Just agreeing to accept this forgiveness (in the unlikely 
case that it exists) is not enough.  

> Is God cruel for offering this and yet some too proud
> to admit their fault? 

This is not the reason why people reject Christianity, and if you read 
alt.atheism with any attention at all, you should know that by now. I know
that's what they tell you in Sunday School, but it's a lie.

> 
>>Apologies in advance, but this strikes me as silly. Forgiveness is in the mind
>>of the forgiver.  If Joe punches me, and I take offense, do I need him to
>>be willing to be forgiven before I can forgive him?  No! His attitude is
>>irrelevant.  I say to myself, well I'm not going to hold it against him. He 
>>may say he wants me to hold it against him. But if I want to forgive him, that
>>matters not a whit. You are forgiven, Joe - even if you hate me, I will not
>>hold anything against you. 
> 
> Yet because of Joe's persistance in hating, the relationship remains
> unreconciled.  No healing has taken place and Joe would be miserable
> being around the one who forgives him, because of his hate.

No atheist hates God. Because we don't even think he's real. Our situation
is more akin to a "Joe" who doesn't even believe in his forgiver. Upon 
finding out that such a being exists, he would likely say, "Jeez, I 
didn't know I was offending you. Sorry about that."  I don't think
you'll meet too many atheists that would be upset to find out that there
is a loving, forgiving God waiting for them after death. Indeed, my 
suspicion is that such a God would be pretty peeved at all the people
spreading rumors that his forgiveness was conditional upon accepting
their beliefs....

> -- 
> John Emery		"You say we've risen to a new age of light.
> emery@tc.fluke.COM       You're telling me what used to be wrong
> 			 is now right."


Sean Hartigan
hartigan@ac.dal.ca
Xref: sparky talk.religion.misc:15322 sci.skeptic:15619