From: rooney@cheshire.oxy.edu (Michael Sean Rooney)
Subject: Re: The Literary Canon
Followup-To: rec.arts.books, alt.politics.zealotry.clayton.cramer
Summary: I'm an liberal, I've been dismissed
Keywords: Greeks race Cramer foolishness
Organization: Occidental College, Los Angeles, CA 90041 USA.
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 05:15:13 GMT

In article <11913@optilink.UUCP> cramer@optilink.UUCP (Clayton Cramer) writes:
>In article <1992Aug26.081738.12086@cheshire.oxy.edu>, rooney@cheshire.oxy.edu (Michael Sean Rooney) writes:
>> In article <11888@optilink.UUCP> cramer@optilink.UUCP (Clayton Cramer) writes:
>> >How many nonwhite ancient Greeks were there, by the way?  Greeks are
>> >a people of indisputably white race. 
>>  
>> 	When was the last time you saw Herodotos in the flesh, eh,
>> Clayton?  Did he seem "indisputably white"?  There's little ethno-      
>
>Sorry, I'll just ignore all the statutes left from the classical
>civilization.

	Did you see the statues when they had paint on them?  Are the
features indisputably white?  What about those Roman noses?  Can you
be sure, Clayton?  Gasp -- wh-what if...they weren't???

>
>> archaeological evidence as to the "color" of the ancient Hellenes.
>> They were probably about as "white" as similar east Mediterranean
>> peoples, i.e., definitely non-Germano-Scandinavian.  Or were they
>> mixed?  Perhaps "colored"?  Those from Asia Minor, "Asian"?  How
>> indisputable, whiteness? 
>
>East Mediterranean peoples are definitely white, asshole.  So are
>Asian Minor people, asshole.

	The Turks are flattered, I'm sure.  So am I, since by these
qualifications I might pass for "definitely white".  Your broad-mindedness
is noted and appreciated.  Trouble is, why bother with such categories?

>
>> 	Take your Afrikaaner logic elsewhere, Clayton.
>
>Afrikaaner logic?  For pointing out the absurdity of a phrase
>like "nonwhite ancient Greeks"?  Liberalism's downfall is nonsense
>like this turd Rooney.


	Uh-oh.  Not only am I a liberal (don't worry, I'll dismiss
myself), but I'm also a "turd".  Owwie, Mommie, Clayton called me a
bad word!!

	Sorry, Clayton, but claiming that the classical Greeks were
"indisputably white" is indisputably stupid.  Quod erat demonstratum.

>
>> >Maybe I'm just a narrow-minded sort, but unless a writer makes a point
>> >of telling me his race or gender, and that it has some significance to 
>> >what he is writing about (e.g., Shelby Steele's _The Content of our 
>> >Character_), I don't see much point to classifying the author by race 
>> >or gender.
>> 
>> 	So the fact that women and minorities make up a marginal,     
>> highly disproportionate fraction of the U.S. Congress is irrelevant?
>
>Yup.  Irrelevant.  Whether a Congresscritter is white, black, male,
>female, whatever, is irrelevant.  Hell, I'm no liberal, I vote for
>what a person based on what they say, not how they look.

	I see.  So the fact that there were no blacks in Congress in
the early parts of this century, when there had been blacks in Congress
previously and they could still legally run for office -- that was
irrelevant too, I guess?

	"Hell, I'm no liberal" has been duly noted.  As far as I can
tell, the statement is true, in every possible sense.

>
>> You miss the intention of the original posters.  They were attempting
>> to detect the disproportionately small numbers of minorities in the
>> traditional canon of so-called great literature.  Do you get the point?
>> Or have non-whites simply not produced any "great works" worthy of the
>> canon?
>
>The literary canon is definitely cultural in nature.  I would agree
>that there is doubtless some very fine literature produced by 
>non-Europeans.  _Things Fall Apart_ by the Nigerian writer is
>pretty impressive.  But until very recently, the non-European
>cultures have had little impact on our culture (outside of the
>area of religion).  Americans are not all that well represented
>in the literary canon.  Big deal.  Until recently, we were a
>remote outpost of European civilization (and some will doubtless
>argue that we still are).

	Your appreciation of Chinua Achebe is very big-minded of
you, Clayton.  But pause for a moment to consider why it is that
non-European cultures haven't had impact on European or U.S. culture,
in spite of the world-wide presence of Europeans and Americans.
It wouldn't have anything to do with having the bigger guns, would
it?  

	Nah.  They just can't write great books.

>
>> 
>
>You know, rec.arts.books (perhaps because it's dominated by
>liberals) has among the least polite jerks anywhere on USENET.

	Extending politeness to fatuous homophobes still eludes me, alas.

	
Cordially,

Michael S. Rooney