HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: wwarf@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (wayne john warf)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: PEN GUN
Date: 11 Apr 92 23:44:03 GMT
Organization: Indiana University

In article <53004@mimsy.umd.edu> sybok@m4-035-1.MIT.EDU (The Terminator) writes:
#Where could I get a pen gun?

There was a company making what looked like a "Cross" pen in .22LR a few
years ago called "Pen-fire." They were selling to Law Enforcement only
but you see them sometimes in Shotgun News as collector pieces. Pen guns
are NFA "any other weapons" subject to registration and a $5 transfer tax.
-- 
 *  WWARF@ucs.indiana.edu**I speak for me,OK?**sic semper tyrannis    *
 *   NRA LIFE* *NRA Certified Instructor* *Penna. R&PA* *Ind. SR&PA   *
 * Department of Decision & Information Systems, Indiana University   *
 * Bloomington, IN 47405 USA* *Pennsylvania CCW Lic.*Indiana CCW Lic. *
From: thi@mips2.ma30.bull.com (Saigon Smuggler)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Advice on Polar Bear protection requested (no kidding!!!)
Date: 7 Apr 92 18:13:29 GMT
Organization: Bull HN Information Systems Inc.

In article <52676@mimsy.umd.edu> n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del Vecchio) writes:
#
# [...good discussion deleted...]
#
#If he wanted an autoloader, he could look at a glock 20, which holds
#15+1 rds of 10mm.    This is a far cry from .44 mag, and may be useless
#against polar bear, but it is the next best thing.   The glock ought to
#work at any tempeture, and the greater controlablity and # of rounds 
#might make up for the weaker caliber in his mind.   He ought to get
#the hottest heavy hollowpoints for this purpose.   I think some companies
#load the 10mm to 170 grains at 1340 fps, but I may be wrong.

I recalled a writer of a hunting magazine failed to stop a charging 
grizzly with six 210-gr JHP .44 Magnum rounds at armlength distance.
The six rounds all hit in a small group in the chest/heart area of the
bear.  However, they all expanded and failed to penetrate past the heavy 
chest muscles.

He was saved by his buddy with a high-power rifle.  He went on to recommend
heavy (over 300 grains) hard-cast bullets for .44 Mag.

-tt
From: jca@crash.cts.com (John C. Archambeau)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: 9mm vs 40S&W - which to choose?
Date: 14 Apr 92 14:31:22 GMT
Organization: Crash TimeSharing, El Cajon, CA

In article <53153@mimsy.umd.edu> barry@uts.amdahl.com (Barry Needham) writes:
#In my mind there have been too many cases when the 9 didn't do the job.  The
#FBI, both in actual experience and in their testing, would seem to agree.  The
#.40 S&W is the FBI 10mm load (10mm Lite) and I believe that any way you care
#to look at it you will get superior results than the current crop of 9s.
#
#If you want to / need to carry a 9, that's fine; but if I were limited to a 9
#I would focus my practise on head shots.

I, however, tend to agree with Ayoob's thoughts on the 10mm/.40 S&W
debate.  There just isn't enough evidence out on the street yet to 
prove that it's a good calibre.  The tide is turning towards the .40 S&W
though.

On my CA guard card (open carry) firearm permit I'm currently applying
for, I plan on having both 9mm and .357/.38 (they count as one calibre
in CA) on it.  Our local PD and CHP has .40 S&W as the standard issue 
calibre.  I plan on adding .45 ACP to my firearm permit when I need to 
renew it in a year after qualifying unless there are some major
shootings in CA involving CHP and/or local PD, I won't be added
.40 S&W.

Also, the evidence with 9mm depends on what type of 9mm you use.  If
you're using hardballs, of course it's going to be a poor performer
since it goes right through the body and lacks expansion.

I'd be very curious to see how the Starfire performs on the street and 
if I'm allowed to carry my personal 9mm handguns on duty, I will 
specifically mention that I'll be using Starfire and if there's any 
company policy against Starfire and get it in writing that I can use
Starfire on duty.  I look at it this way, it can't be any worse than
a JHP which does reasonably well on the street.
--

     // JCA

 /*
 ** ARPA    : jadpc!thewall!jca@nosc.mil | 13 + 1 = 21...
 ** INTERNET: jca@thewall.cts.com        | 
 **           jca@thewall.uucp           |           Glock 21...
 ** UUCP    : nosc!jadpc!thewall!jca     |
 */
From: eesnyder@boulder.Colorado.EDU (Eric E. Snyder)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: BATF APPROVED Hellfire?
Date: 11 Apr 92 23:44:12 GMT
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder

clochmul@nrambr.chem.duke.edu (Charles H. Lochmueller) writes:

#BATF Approved doesn't mean that BATF approves of installation on anything or
#use by anyone. Jonathan Ciener's silencers are BATF approved and if you do
#the paperwork, get approvals and pay for the $200 tax stamp, you can have
#one. None of the paperwork I have seen with Hellfire implies BATF considers
#an AR-15 so equipped to be approved in anyone's hands. 

#Does anyone know for sure?

Apparently, the manufacturers of Hell-Fire are quite conscious of the 
possible legal problems which might arise from the use of their device. 
Since, the profitability of the device is about zero if one needs BATF 
approval and a $200 tax stamp, they went to great lengths to get a green
light from the BATF.  They even went as far as submitting a unit to BATF
for testing.  The unit I obtained even included a copy of a letter from
BATF part of which reads:

\begin{BATF Letter}

[...]

The submitted sample does not affect the design of a semiautomatic
rifle.  With the device installed, the weapon is capable of firing only
one shot with each pull of the trigger. 

The "Hell-Fire" trigger attachment, as submitted, is not subject to 
any of the provisions of Chapter 44, Title 18, USC, or Chapter 53, Title
26, UCS. However, is the design, dimensions, or function of the device
is changed, this classification is subject to review. 

[...]

Edward M. Owens, Jr.
Chief, Firearms Technology Branch

\end{BATF Letter}

I don't have a copy if the US Code handy.  I presume these are the 
regulations concerning fully-automatic firearms.  Would anyone care 
the corroborate this?


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
TTGATTGCTAAACACTGGGCGGCGAATCAGGGTTGGGATCTGAACAAAGACGGTCAGATTCAGTTCGTACTGCTG
Eric E. Snyder                            
Department of MCD Biology              ...making feet for childrens' shoes.
University of Colorado, Boulder   
Boulder, Colorado 80309-0347
LeuIleAlaLysHisTrpAlaAlaAsnGlnGlyTrpAspLeuAsnLysAspGlyGlnIleGlnPheValLeuLeu
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: sybok@m4-035-13.MIT.EDU (The Terminator)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Advice on Polar Bear protection requested (no kidding!!!)
Date: 10 Apr 92 02:19:15 GMT
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology

In article <52921@mimsy.umd.edu> bbx!bbx.basis.com!russ@unmvax.cs.unm.edu (Russ Kepler) writes:
#
#In article <52863@mimsy.umd.edu> sybok@m4-035-13.MIT.EDU (The Terminator) writes:
##You could always hit the bear with a blast of 5% Capstun and see how well
##it can chase humans it can't see, or engulf it in flames with a shotgun
##shell of DRAGON'S BREATH(tm).
#
#The Capstun idea *might* work, but I'd want something real big as a
#backup.
#
#I haven't ever fired the Dragon's Breath, has anyone out there done
#so?  I wouldn't expect that it could do much damage as to total energy
#available would be too diffuse (judging purely from the catalog
#photos).

Animals stay away from fire, don't they?  Keep cyclin' those rounds!
From: bjt20@ccc.amdahl.com (Bob J Taylor)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: bullet & gasoline truck
Date: 14 Apr 92 20:17:16 GMT
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA


In article <53195@mimsy.umd.edu> infmx!gregm@uunet.UU.NET (Greg Mitchell) writes:
#In article <53071@mimsy.umd.edu> ejohnson@cs.washington.edu (Eric Johnson) writes:
##In article <53029@mimsy.umd.edu> jca@crash.cts.com (John C. Archambeau) writes:
###igniting diesel.  Diesel ignites under compression, not a spark.
##
##True, but this makes it even easier to light with a bullet -- fill a 
##2-liter pop bottle a little with diesel,cap it and shake it around a bit 
##to get some fumes going, stand back (way back) and shoot it. The compression
##from the bullet hitting it ought to light it. I've never tried this, but
##the guy at the local gun shop swears it is the neatest way to have fun plinking.
#
#Hey, where you when I asked about this a few months back ?  I suggested
#it but people did not think it would really work.  I never tried
#it but now I am all excited about it again.
#
##Kids, don't try this at home.. :)
#
#Yes I will  :-) :-) :-)
#
#
#           Greg Mitchell          gregm@informix.com

Another thing that works quite well I'm told (ahem) is to get a big coffee
can, place a can of hair spray in it, and fill the coffe can full of
gasoline.  Shoot the hair spray (the flamable kind, of course) with
something on the order of a 30-06.  Don't be real close when you do
this. 8-O

BJET
I never told you to do this, I never told you how to do this, I was
insane at the time, in fact I don't even know who I am.
From: fist@iscp.Bellcore.COM (Richard Pierson)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Revolver Hammer Safety
Date: 13 Apr 92 17:33:51 GMT
Organization: Bell Communications Research (Bellcore)


 hes@unity.ncsu.edu (Henry E. Schaffer) writes:
#  My worry is that if I'm walking through the woods with a holstered
#revolver that I might fall, and brush against a tree when falling, and
#that would unsnap my holster and the gun would fall out hitting a rock
#so that the cylinder would pop open, rotate a bit so that the empty
#position was no longer under the firing pin, and then close on the
#next bounce, and then get a branch in front of the trigger and the
#force of the moving gun would cause the trigger to move backwards
#with respect to the frame and then the gun would fire.

HENRY:
  MAKE SURE YOU BUT A LOTTERY TICKET THE DAY THAT HAPPENS, YOU'D
  HIT A PICK-6 LOTTERY FIRST
-- 
##########################################################
There are only two types of ships in the NAVY; SUBMARINES 
                 and TARGETS !!!
Richard Pierson E06584 vnet: [908] 699-6063
Internet: fist@iscp.belcore.com,|| UUNET:uunet!bcr!fist  
#include <std.disclaimer> My opinions are my own!!!
I DONT CARE IF I SOUND CONFUSED, I KNOW WHAT I MEAN !!!
From: wolfgang@wsrcc.com (Wolfgang S. Rupprecht)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: 9mm Clip prices?
Date: 10 Apr 92 23:21:02 GMT
Organization: W S Rupprecht Computer Consulting, Fremont CA

In bourman@hpcc01.corp.hp.com (Bob Bourman) writes:
}What's up ? Are these non-brand clips as good? Has anyone had
}experience with off the wall clips?

The U.S.A. brand 30 rnd mag for a Glock is pure junk.  It won't even
load *load* more than 24 rounds of FMJ.  Rounds 24-30 bind from front
to back jamming the mag.  Trying to pull the stuck (live) rounds out
of the bottom of the mag is certainly exciting.

U.S.A. will gladly send replacement mags - but the replacements I got
are all just as defective as the first.  I'm surprised that U.S.A.
can't hire some QA person that is capable of sucessfully using a pair
of calipers.

-wolfgang
-- 
Wolfgang Rupprecht    wolfgang@wsrcc.com (or) wsrcc!wolfgang
Snail Mail:           39469 Gallaudet Drive, Fremont, CA 94538-4511
From: jheath@fieldofdreams.npirs.purdue.edu (Jim Heath)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: 9mm vs 40S&W - which to choose?
Date: 14 Apr 92 20:17:09 GMT
Organization: Center for Environmental and Regulatory Information Systems, Purdue University

#From article <53133@mimsy.umd.edu>, by rsopicki@pro-amber.cts.com (System Administrator):
# Isn't a .40S&W round closer to the specs of a 10mm?
#

I would say it is very close to .45 acp.

   
-- 
"Land of song, said the warrior bard,           Jim Heath
Though all the world betrays thee.
One sword, at least, thy rights shall guard, (The Minstrel Boy)
One faithful harp will praise thee."         (Thomas More)
From: gwyn@smoke.brl.mil (Doug Gwyn)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Shotguns vs Handguns (was: Gun Recommendations Sought)
Date: 10 Apr 92 18:19:43 GMT
Organization: U.S. Army Ballistic Research Laboratory, APG, MD.


In article <52833@mimsy.umd.edu> forda@gtephx.UUCP (Andrew Ford @ AGCS, Phoenix, Arizona) writes:
#To which one would simply respond, ...

No you wouldn't, unless your own counsel later asked you "why?".
Courts don't usually tolerate the defendant launching into a
speech that is not in direct answer to the examiner's question.

This does point up the necessity of retaining a good attorney
who SPECIALIZES in the specific kind of trial (e.g. he should
know in advance what arguments the prosecution is likely to
make and prepare appropriate counterstrategies).
From: vojak@icebucket.stortek.com (Bill Vojak)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Shotguns, Handguns & Flashlights
Date: 8 Apr 92 20:28:44 GMT
Organization: Storage Technology Corp.

In article <52601@mimsy.umd.edu> bp816@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Stuart Krivis) writes:

#P oint 2: Why use a handgun for home protection? Shotguns are more
# effective and safer. Shotguns scare the hell out of burglars!

I have had to answer the door a couple of times late at night, when
I didn't know the person on the other side. With a handgun, you can
slip it in the back waistband, pocket. . .  On one occasion I just
held it behind my back, weak hand, out of sight. The person never 
knew that I was armed. I think he was more interested in the two
growling dogs on the steps watching him. :-)

This is difficult to do with a shotgun. 99.9 % of the time the person
on the other side of the door has a good reason for being there. It
can be very uncomfortable for them to be greeted by a shotgun toting
homeowner. What if the person is a Cop looking for a prowler in the 
area? (I think this happened to someone on the net). I also slip my
.38+P into my pocket when taking the dogs out late at night. I live
next to tons of prairie type open space, where cougers have been known
to roam. A shotgun could attract alot of undesired attention after
some neighbor calls 911 about "some guy with a shotgun lurking about".

On another topic: I just bought a 5D cell Brinkman police type 
flashlight.  I seems to have a better focus than my 3D cell Mag-lite.
Emblazened accross the package in big bright letters for both the 
5 & 3 cell flashlights is the slogan. .  "The Ultimate WEAPON Against
Darkness" (emphasis mine). My first reaction was, I wonder if they
are implying something more than, just being used as a flashlight?
They probably can't just come out and say, "makes a great clubbing
device", because of legal reasons. My dad who lives in Chicago says
that possession of > 3 cell flashlight in public is now considered
a deadly weapon. Yup, the next HCI target. . . Assault FlashLights!


				Bill Vojak
				Bill_Vojak@stortek.com
				NRA, ILA, CFC
----------------------------------------------------------
The CBS Nightly Propaganda With Dan Rather. (RATHER NOT!)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Just say no to Wirth, Schroeder & Skaggs in 92' - 3 NRA "F" Politicians
# Update: Sen. Wirth has decided to not seek re-election and the 
# leading Dem replacement is pro-gun! so is the Rep challenger!
# Schroeder & Skaggs are busy explaining their rubber checks!
# My wish is coming true!
From: FRAMPTON@skitzo.dseg.ti.com
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Recrowning...........
Date: 13 Apr 92 17:33:49 GMT



    Has anyone ever recrowned a barrel on thier own?
    Can it be done without worry?

    When at my folks this weekend, I picked up my old
    "very first" .22.   Its an Ithaca single shot. I
    looked at the end of the barrel and noticed there
    wasn't a crown anymore.

    While on the subject....  I have never seen another
    rifle made by Ithaca.  Does anyone else have a rifle
    made by Ithaca?
From: dingbat@cix.compulink.co.uk (Codesmiths)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: "GLOCK" - A Book Review
Date: 15 Apr 92 14:03:53 GMT



# In article <52977@mimsy.umd.edu> crs@beta.lanl.gov (Charlie Sorsby) writes:
# #In article <52909@mimsy.umd.edu> you write:
# #= 
# #=     According to Peter Kasler, amphib. spring cups are restricted sale
# #=     items by Glock, although not due to any legal restrictions.



# Speaking of which, I wonder _why_ they are restricted??


Fear of lawsuits, from someone stupid enough to shoot with their head
underwater & burst their eardrums ?

          Andy Dingley    dingbat@cix.compulink.co.uk
From: infmx!gregm@uunet.UU.NET (Greg Mitchell)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: bullet & gasoline truck
Date: 14 Apr 92 14:31:08 GMT
Organization: Informix Software, Inc.

In article <53071@mimsy.umd.edu> ejohnson@cs.washington.edu (Eric Johnson) writes:
#In article <53029@mimsy.umd.edu> jca@crash.cts.com (John C. Archambeau) writes:
##igniting diesel.  Diesel ignites under compression, not a spark.
#
#True, but this makes it even easier to light with a bullet -- fill a 
#2-liter pop bottle a little with diesel,cap it and shake it around a bit 
#to get some fumes going, stand back (way back) and shoot it. The compression
#from the bullet hitting it ought to light it. I've never tried this, but
#the guy at the local gun shop swears it is the neatest way to have fun plinking.

Hey, where you when I asked about this a few months back ?  I suggested
it but people did not think it would really work.  I never tried
it but now I am all excited about it again.

#Kids, don't try this at home.. :)

Yes I will  :-) :-) :-)


           Greg Mitchell          gregm@informix.com
From: gatech!cs.utexas.edu!wotan!zardoz!dhw68k.cts.com!bytebug@cs.purdue.edu (Roger L. Long)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: NetNews/CD Service
Date: 9 Apr 92 23:31:09 GMT

This is the first I've heard about this "service," and am curious about
how other moderators have reacted.  Am I the only one who has some amount
of concern about this?

I'm concerned about the postings that I make to comp.binaries.mac that
contain restrictions regarding how a particular piece of software may be
distributed.  In light of various venders who charge money for freeware
and shareware, many author specifically prohibit distribution via any
service that charges anything other than connect time without specific
authorization.  This has been brought about by this exact situation: of
companies (such as EduCorp) that have included freeware/shareware in the
CD-ROMs that they sell.

I also know that in the past when it was suggested that certain services
(StarGate) could be set up and charge for news that had traditionally been
free, and restricted redistribution, that all hell broke loose, with
people adding Copyright lines to their signatures.

Has this already been discussed elsewhere, and if so, could someone
kindly bring me up-to-date.

Thanks.

--
	Roger L. Long
	bytebug@dhw68k.cts.com
From: dbruce@athena.mit.edu (David M Bruce)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: PEN GUN
Date: 13 Apr 92 20:42:22 GMT
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology

In article <53085@mimsy.umd.edu> sybok@m4-035-17.MIT.EDU (The Terminator) writes:
#In article <53076@mimsy.umd.edu> dbruce@athena.mit.edu (David M Bruce) writes:
##In article <53055@mimsy.umd.edu> sybok@athena.mit.edu (The Terminator) writes:
###In article <53034@mimsy.umd.edu> dbruce@athena.mit.edu (David M Bruce) writes:
####In article <53004@mimsy.umd.edu> sybok@m4-035-1.MIT.EDU (The Terminator) writes:
#####Where could I get a pen gun?
####
####Nowhere, they're illegal (at least in MA).
###
###I'm intimately familiar with Massachusetts law regarding firearms.  Silencers
###are prohibited, machine guns are heavily restricted, and handguns are illegal
###to purchase without a license to carry.  What chapter and section number
###of Massachusetts General Law prohibits the purchase or possession of 
###pen guns?
###
###
##I don't have my law book handy, but I believe it's thrown in with the 
##possesion of a dangerous weapon section that makes things like dirk
##knives, nunchucks, sword canes, brass knuckles, ect. illegal to possess.
##I'll check on it.
#
#That's chapter 269 of Mass. General Law, which prohibits *carrying* a 
#handgun without a LTC, and *carrying* a dirk knife, numchucks, brass knuckles,
#etc.  Possession of a handgun is not covered by this section, and it's
#not illegal to possess a dirk knife in your house, or to possess brass
#knuckles in your house.  As far as I know, the only weapon which your
#can't OWN in your house is a stun-gun (portable electric device designed
#to incapacitate), a weapon prohibited by chapter 140 of Mass. General Law,
#which handles possession (instead of carrying).

My mistake, I was thinking of C269 S12 which prohibits manufacture, sale,
ect. of a *cane* gun, not a *pen* gun.
From: ucla-cs!netcon.smc.edu!agood@CS.UCLA.EDU (Aaron Good)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Duplicating factory rounds. was .357 Home Protection Gun Recommendation
Date: 8 Apr 92 20:29:00 GMT
Organization: Santa Monica College, Santa Monica, CA

## # One thing no one has mentioned...  Don't use handloads for self-
## # defense. They will make you out to be a monster in court if you
## # ever actually have to shoot someone.
## # 
## How so?  In actual fact, the hand loads I use are not as hot as factory
## loads, so how could I be called a monster because I like paying half as
## much for ammunition?  ('Course, we do live in different areas, but I fail
## to see how a handload automatically makes you a murdering monster - even
## if it is hot.  .357 magnum is deadly, period.)
I agree that using handloads is an extremely poor idea for defense, ONLY
because the civil liability trial will make you out to be a "gun crazed,
Rambo style vigilante who gunned down my client as if he were a rat."
Using handloads- hot or not - will in most probability increase the amount
of the award to the plaintiff agianst you. Go ahead and use the handloads for
plinking, varmint hunting, and everything else, but put some factory ammo in 
the gun when you put away the gun. 
As for How... a lawyer will do anything for his client, short of (hopefully)
breaking the law, so if he calls you some nasty names in court just be prepared.
In This neck of the woods, L.A., Calif, EVERYBODY get sued at least once
and an incident of deadly force will definitly end up in court...EVEN IF
90 WITNESSES SAID YOU FIRED IN SELF DEFENSE AND THE SUSPECT WAS A BONAFIDE 
SOCIOPATH BENT ON YOUR DESTRUCTION.
As always, all the opinions above are my own only.. and are not intended
to be used for anything but discussion.