HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Thu, 13 Aug 1992 10:35:00 GMT
From:         Z_STAFF_CL@SOUTHAMPTON-INSTITUTE.AC.UK
Subject:      Mary & colour blue

>From:        Donna Marie Lewis <dl2y+%ANDREW.CMU.EDU@EARN.CARNEGIE>
>Subject:     Re: question for RCC's
>
>One of my priest-friends says the Church Fathers were fond of saying
>that Mary's color is blue since her body contained more than the Heavens
>can hold.

Lovely idea but the real reason is more technical and more to do with giving
of the best.

When artists painted Mary they wanted to use the best, rarest and most
expensive paint.  The mineral lapis laz. is rare and was used to give
that lovely blue colour.  At a time when only the church financed art,
artists could only afford this extemely expensiv pigment for pictures
the patrons would pay for - icons of madonna & child.

Carol L
Z_STAFF_CL@UK.AC.SOUTHAMPTON-INSTITUTE
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Date:         Thu, 20 Aug 1992 14:19:55 EST
From:         Kerry Stephenson <KSTE@PURCCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Orthodox
              20 Aug 1992 17:42:24 GMT from <anachem@BRONZE.UCS.INDIANA.EDU>

Um,

Could someone explain what's wrong with Campus Crusade?  Privately,
if you like.  It's just that I appear to have missed something.

Love INC,

         --Kerry
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Date:         Thu, 13 Aug 1992 15:13:50 CDT
Reply-To:     bradk%isdgsm@rtsg.mot.com
From:         Brad Kaiser <bradk%isdgsm@RTSG.MOT.COM>
Subject:      Re: WHAT IS THE WORLD TELLING US?
X-To:         CHRISTIA%ASUVM.INRE.ASU.EDU@motgate.mot.com

Earlier this week, apropos of Marian apparitions, Kerry Stephenson
admonished Elizabeth Stevens to "test the Spirits with discernment".

Today I stumbled upon the Scripture passage which teaches that.  I
found the context to be quite interesting:

   Beloved, do not trust every spirit but test the spirits to see
   whether they belong to God, because many false prophets have gone
   out into the world.  This is how you can know the Spirit of God:
   every spirit that acknowledges Jesus Christ come into the flesh
   belongs to God, and every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus
   does not belong to God.
                -- 1 Jn 4:1-3b

Now, if a vision/apparition/miracle is truly connected to Mary, and
not to some demon reminiscent of Mary (and we would need to make the
same test w/r/t an apparition of Jesus himself, right?), then I submit
that *no* spirit, save Jesus, meets John's test better than Mary, she
who not merely "acknowledges Jesus Christ come into the flesh" but who
willingly cooperated with the work of the Holy Spirit in the very
miracle of the Incarnation, thereby *accomplishing* Jesus Christ come
into the flesh.  In her words:

                   Fiat mihi secundum verbum tuum
           ("Let it be done to me according to your word")

Brad Kaiser
(bradk%isdgsm@rtsg.mot.com)

  "Hatred destroys.  Only love creates."
            -- St. Maximilian Kolbe, shortly before his arrest and
               martyrdom at the hands of the Nazis.
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Date:         Fri, 21 Aug 1992 10:18:46 CDT
Reply-To:     bradk%isdgsm@rtsg.mot.com
From:         Brad Kaiser <bradk%isdgsm@RTSG.MOT.COM>
Subject:      Anti-Catholicism: "Saul, Saul, why ..."
X-To:         CHRISTIA%ASUVM.INRE.ASU.EDU@motgate.mot.com

This is an open letter (and a very short one) to Tom Brewer, Jesse
Carnes, Dan Graham, and anyone else who has reacted in a violently
negative fashion to Elizabeth's posts.

  Why don't you try a little tolerance of a differing view?  You are not
  Jesus, either.  If he didn't come into the world to condemn the
  world, why do you?

  Besides, if you open your heart and mind, you might learn something
  from what Elizabeth is saying.  God's ways are not mine, nor hers,
  nor yours.  Why are you so quick to judge?

A specific note to Dan Graham.  Dan, you write:

>> AT THE END OF CAIN'S "MESSAGE" FROM JESUS, HE SAYS THAT HIS REPRESENTATIVE
>> ON EARTH IS THE POPE.  THIS IS A DIRECT ATTACK ON ALL PROTESTANTS.  I
>> CANNOT AND WILL NOT RECOGNIZE THE POPE AS A REPRESENTATIVE OF MY LORD.
>> ACCORDING TO THAT MESSAGE, THOUGH, IF I DO NOT, I'M IN MORTAL DANGER.  THIS
>> IS NOT THE GOSPEL, IT IS SACRILAGE.

FIRST OF ALL, I'M NOT SURE WHY YOU WRITE IN ALL CAPS.  IT MAKES IT
HARD FOR ME TO READ, AND WOULD NO MATTER WHAT YOU WROTE.

Also, your statement that the authority of the Pope is "sacrilage"
(sic) is a direct attack on all Catholics, who hold that that
authority comes directly from the Gospel (Mt 16:13-20, Jn 21:15-19.
I'm not going to debate it with you; that's how we interpret that
text, period, end of story.)

I guess that makes us "even", but I hardly see what it does to further
the work of Christ.  Perhaps you can enlighten us -- in public,
please, I'm not interested in debating you, over email or anywhere
else.

Love in Him,

Brad Kaiser
(bradk%isdgsm@rtsg.mot.com)

  "Hatred destroys.  Only love creates."
            -- St. Maximilian Kolbe, shortly before his arrest and
               martyrdom at the hands of the Nazis.
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
From: 78witherspoo@cua.edu
Subject: A definition of f.v's?
Organization: The Catholic University of America
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 14:23:50 GMT

In article <19AUG92.09077114.0037.MUSIC@LAFAYACS>,         "Fritz Block, LCF Summer President" <BD32@LAFAYACS.BITNET> writes:
Fritz--

	Let me see if I've got this straight.  Family values entail the
following:

> Vetoing the Freedom of Choice Act, 
--> so there can be more families, whether or not the mother is capable of	
	handling the responsibilities of raising a family

> giving parents the right to choose
> between available public and private schools (with tax credits for
> choosing the latter),
--> so there can be more families rooted in strong religious values (mostly
	chrisitan, let's face it) and have the rest of the country to pay for
	children to go to a school that is outside the taxpayer's faith
 
> banning the distribution of condoms in public
> schools,
--> so there can be more children raising children, ergo, more families; and
	let's not forget more sexually transmitted diseases, more babies born
	with aids and other diseases, ergo, more dysfunctional families
 
> banning the Joe Camel advertising (which appeals to minors),
--> so there can be more healthy families (this I agree on, loosely)

> keeping the authority of parents over their children (except in cases of
> abuse),
--> so children can continue to be raised by their parents, regardless of the 
	kind of parents they are (this ties back in with your proviso on abuse,
	which I would like to know)
 
> and developing stricter FCC regulations, to name a few.
--> so that families will watch a controlled media, so that families will be 
	influenced correctly.

	This really isn't meant as a flame, but as reminder that "family
values" can mean anything you want them to mean.  I mean, what does banning the
"Joe Camel" ads have to do with the american family??  Where is the increased
support for daycare?  What about better maternity leave?  What about better
insurance coverage for families that have children?  Broader innoculation and
immunization programs?  Restructuring the basic educational system so that
_all_ children are taught the same things at the same time?  What about support
for scholarships for college and other higher education?  What about financial
assistance for families that have fallen on hard economic times?  (I'm not
speaking of welfare, something different must be done.)

	There are so many facets to the family, and the family is changing. 
It is time to put away the slogans, and deal with the issues at hand, and the
problems that have to be solved.

Love and good walking,

Tom Witherspoon
 
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Date:         Mon, 17 Aug 1992 08:45:00 EDT
From:         Richard.Campbell@MVS.UDEL.EDU
Subject:      RE: Territorial Spirits (Wink, etc.)
X-To:         CHRISTIA@ASUVM.INRE.ASU.EDU

    Zane,
         C. Peter Wagner has edited a collection of essays/articles on
territorial spirits called "Territorial Spirits."  I have it at home -- I
think the publisher is Revell.  Wagner has done a lot of research on the
topic. I think he also edited another book called "Wrestling With Dark
Angels."
     Tom White's book "A Believer's Guide to Spiritual Warfare" may also have
some info. on territorial spirits.  I know he's written a paper on the topic.
                                              Rich C.
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Date:         Fri, 21 Aug 1992 21:50:39 -0500
From:         "Michael S. Muegel" <mmuegel@NEXT3.CORP.MOT.COM>
Subject:      Non-Delivery Report for <9208211355.AA04453@motgate.mot.com>
X-To:         CHRISTIA@ASUVM.INRE.ASU.EDU

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Date:         Tue, 18 Aug 1992 08:56:23 -0500
From:         MARCI HENDRIX <HENDRIX@RHODES.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Is the Bible Absolute Truth?

I believe in the inerrancy of the Bible through * Faith * in the same
way as I believe in Jesus Christ through * Faith *.  It seems simple, but
isn't child-like faith what Jesus taught.  Marci
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Date:         Wed, 19 Aug 1992 12:54:55 EDT
From:         Marty Helgesen <MNHCC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Direct Revelation

Memo,
The five sorrowful mysteries of the Rosary are:
1. Jesus' Agony in the Garden
2. Jesus is Scourged at the Pillar
3. Jesus is Crowned with Thorns
4. Jesus Carries His Cross
5. Jesus is Crucified

Marty Helgesen
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Thu, 20 Aug 1992 08:53:46 CST
From:         A16905@ITESO.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Homosexuality

That one is easy too Bob:

I know what broccoli is but I don;t know what boogers is. That's the main
difference :-))))

Shalom,
Memo.
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Date:         Fri, 21 Aug 1992 05:02:06 -0500
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Date:         Fri, 21 Aug 1992 07:51:15 EDT
From:         Marty Helgesen <MNHCC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Direct Revelation, passe?

Elizabeth,

I thought it necessary to explain the Catholic Church's teaching on
private revelation because it is widely misunderstood.  Many non-
Catholics think that the Church invents new doctrines or claims to
get them from new revelations.  It is important to correct that
erroneous impression.  When the Church defines a doctrine it just
gives new status to a doctrine that had been believed before.  This
is true whether the Church is defining the doctrine of the Trinity at
the Council of Nicea or the doctrine that God took the body of Mary
into Heaven at the end of her life on Earth. That latter doctrine was
defined in 1950, but was taught and celebrated in the liturgy for
centuries before.

It is also important to emphasize that the Church views alleged
private revelations with a healthy skepticism.  There have been large
numbers of alleged private revelations, most of which have been
rejected and forgotten.  When God really does send a messenger, He
makes sure that the message is recognized.

I do not understand why you emphasize the fact that the local bishop
is the local bishop.  The local bishop is the man responsible for the
administration of his diocese and the spiritual well-being of people
in it.  Unless Rome intervenes his judgement should be given respect,
and Rome has not intervened.  The authenticity of some quotations
about Medjugorge has been questioned.  If I have time I will try to
dig out information about it.

To answer Kerry's question, I am skeptical about Medjugorge, but I
recognize the possibility that God is behind it.  The basic message
of Medjugorge--a call for increased prayer and penance--is good,
whether it comes directly from God in this case or not.  Many people
are being converted or drawn closer to God as a result of the events
at Medjugorge, which is good, but that does not prove that God has
sent the Virgin Mary with a message.  I don't know whether the local
bishop considers the alleged visions a hoax, a delusion, or something
worse.  Of course there could be a combination of delusion and hoax.
Medjugorge is an issue on which good Catholics disagree.  I do not
take a strong position, but I am basically skeptical.  If the message
is from God, He will do what is necessary so the Church recognizes
this fact.  Until then, I will wait.  I will pray and do penance
because prayer and penance are important and were recognized as
important before Medjugorge.

Marty Helgesen
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Date:         Wed, 12 Aug 1992 10:49:45 EDT
From:         Marty Helgesen <MNHCC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Is Aquinas or Bible absolute?

I find the subject line of this posting ("Is Aquinas or Bible absolute?"
for those whose readers do not display subject lines) strange.  If anyone
had asked St. Thomas he would have said that he is just a philosopher and
theologian, but the Bible in the inspired word of God.  (He would not
have said that he is a great philosopher and theologian, but others after
him have said that.)

Anyone interesting in non-technical introductions to St. Thomas should
read, _ St. Thomas Aquinas _ by G. K. Chesterton.  Hardcover editions
are available in many libraries, and it is in print in paperback in
a Doubleday Image Books edition.

I also recommend _ A First Glance at St. Thomas Aquinas: a handbook
for peeping Thomists _ by Ralph McInerny (Univeristy of Notre Dame Press,
1990)

Marty Helgesen
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Date:         Wed, 19 Aug 1992 16:53:41 -0500
From:         "j.b. cormier" <CORJB@RHODES.BITNET>
Subject:      Regrets

Unfortunately things are too hectic here at Rhodes just before
school starts.  The result is that I am goin nomail for a couple
of weeks until I get into the swing of school.

I can't wait to get back.

Jason
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Date:         Wed, 19 Aug 1992 08:24:16 EDT
From:         "Fritz Block, LCF Summer President" <BD32@LAFAYACS.BITNET>
Subject:      Family values (was Siege Mentality)

> I suppose I should ask the question differently: can anybody identify an
> attack on "family values" which the government can actually do something
> about?

Vetoing the Freedom of Choice Act, giving parents the right to choose
between available public and private schools (with tax credits for
choosing the latter), banning the distribution of condoms in public
schools, banning the Joe Camel advertising (which appeals to minors),
keeping the authority of parents over their children (except in cases of
abuse), and developing stricter FCC regulations, to name a few.


*++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++*
* Fritz Block    "Love is not a ballad on the top ten chart            *
* bd32@lafayacs   Love is not a virus from cupid's dart                *
* 215-250-8031    Love is not a promise that you tear apart            *
* Lafayette Col.  Love is a commitment heart to heart" -- Larry Norman *
*++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++*
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Date:         Tue, 18 Aug 1992 08:20:00 -0400
From:         Lora Harris <LHARRIS@UPEI.CA>
Subject:      Re: Homosexuality

Date: 18-AUG-1992 09:06:28

Hello Angela.  Where have you been?  I remember you from about a year ago.

>My question is, have you (or anyone on here that is
>denouncing homosexuality as a sin) actually met (knowingly) a gay person?
>Have you spent time with that person?  What about a group of gay people?

Yes Yes No.   :^)

I know a few gay men, some practising, some celibate, some Christian, some non.
To pretend they are monsters is indeed a terrible thing.  None of the men I
know would molest children - any more than a given heterosexual would molest a
child of the opposite sex.  One in particular is a fine dedicated (and
celebate) Christian man who I would gladly have any children of mine take as an
example, and from whom I have learned very much, who can speak from the depths
of suffering into a fellow Christian heart and let in the light of Christ.
Another is a frivolous and promiscuous person who I would not be happy having
around my children - which is true of many of my non-gay acquaintances as
well.  Generalities are generally dangerous things, and I take people as they
are, not as they fall into categories.


>Which brings me to
>another question:  what's the difference between a promiscous heterosexual
>and a promiscous homosexual?

        To me, absolutely none.  And if you read my back postings, you will
know that I believe that "orientation" in and of itself is completely
irrelevant - if a person is abstaining, it is none of anyone's business whether
they are abstaining from men, women, or hampsters.  An "orientation" is not
sinful!  To say that it is is like saying to a former alcoholic that she is
sinful because she has a weakness for alcohol, whether or not she drinks.  Or
like saying to an unmarried person that they are sinful for being tempted to
have sex with a person they aren't married to, whether or not they act or even
indulge the fantasy.

Lora Harris, Virology Technician                        |
University of P.E.I, Atlantic Veterinary College      --+--
Charlottetown, Prince Edward Island, C1A 4P3            |
1-902-566-0845   LHARRIS@UPEI.CA                        |
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Date:         Wed, 19 Aug 1992 16:15:45 BST
From:         "Jonathan Wheeler" <JFW1@IBM-B.RUTHERFORD.AC.UK>
Subject:      Re: Morris Cerullo

I also saw the programme about Morris Cerullo.  The programme was a follow-up
to a program several weeks ago which reported on the crusade.  Both programmes
included interviews with Dr Peter May, who is a medical practitioner and a
member of the General Synod of the Church of England.  He is also a member
of the Christian Medical Fellowship.

I also felt that the programme was well balanced; it was a good example of how
to broadcast about religious issues.  The viewer was invited to draw their own
conclusion; certainly there was no direct suggestion that Morris Cerullo was
a fraud, though there was concern expressed about his methods and the theology
behind his ministry.  The sections of the crusade meetings that were recorded
and broadcast as part of the programme were highly emotional.

I certainly believe that God does heal.  Often He uses normal medical
procedures; occasionally he will work directly or through someone who has
the gift of healing, but I am very suspicious of those who act as though
they can command God to heal.  I also believe that true healing does not
always mean physical healing.  We humans are very attached to our bodies,
but the one we have now is only temporary and will be replaced by the new
resurrection body.

Yours sincerely

Jonathan Wheeler
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