HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: azw@aber.ac.uk (Andrew Michael Woodward)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: Yes, we do exist
Date: 10 Nov 92 17:25:26 GMT
Organization: University of Wales, Aberystwyth


There are one or two of us! I also was unsure whether my postings were getting
thru. I sent a longish one (deliberately inflammatory - I have a reputation
to maintain!) on Euro belaying, but was very surprised not to get any hate
mail. Is this group edited, or lacking matches?
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: bruceg@Cadence.COM (Bruce Gustifson)
Subject: Re: learning to lead
Organization: Cadence Design Systems, Inc.
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 22:00:36 GMT

In article <1992Oct31.014201.10073@nas.nasa.gov> eugene@wilbur.nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya) writes:
>>In article <VB7FTB2w165w@stam.nl> nicolas@stam.nl (Nico Veenkamp) writes:
>>>Leading is not more difficult than go second.
>
>If you think that,
>we have a little easy climb (a mere 5.6) for you locally called The Hand.
>
  Indeed, the hand. Mr. Salathe was one ballsy gentleman. I started
up that thing in my sticky boots, and by the time I came back down,
I was wondering how that guy ever did that last run-out in those
hard-soled boots they wore back then. An interesting down-climb, too.
                        -Bruce-
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: Carabiner brake, was Re: No More Write-Ups?
From: "Christopher L. Morrow" <cm43+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 02:03:06 -0500 
 <1992Nov11.162956.5721@ncar.ucar.edu><1992Nov12.214752.1213@nas.nasa.gov>
Organization: Junior, Chemical Engineering, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA


From Eugene Miya:

 
The description given by the fellow, if I am reading correctly is
a Swiss-S or a Swiss Wrap.  It puts a kink into the rope, but it is useful
in that it uses less gear.  Diagrams appear in older versions of
Freedom of the Hills and in military manuals.  Perfectly legit means
when done right.

If this was aimed at my last post, let me clear up the description a bit...

First clip your crab into your harness.

second stand facing the top of the rope with the rope on your brake hand side
, pick up the rope and push it through the gate of the biner(makesure the gate 
is up).  Now the rope is simply passing through the biner, (no friction)

third, take the uphill end of the rope, pull it under the crab(wrap it under)
and clip it through the gate also.  
When you are done with this, the rope should come from the uphill anchor,
pass between gate and bar(through biner) from non-brakehand side and proceed 
to wrap around the bar(non-gate side) of the biner one full wrap.  
After this you are ready to go.

I STRONGLY URGE YOU TO MAKE SURE THIS IS DONE CORRECTLY BEFORE TRYING TO RAPPEL,
IF YOU MESS UP AND PULL THE DOWNHILL INSTEAD OF THE UPHILL ROPE SECTION THE
ROPE WILL CREEP UP THE BINER AND CLIP THROUGH THE BINER'S GATE. THIS 
SITUATION IS REFERRED TO AS "FATAL LOCK" AND IT WILL MOST LIKELY KILL YOU!!!


please make sure you don't screw this up, I would hate to read about it on the 
net....

Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: sgs8r@kelvin.seas.Virginia.EDU (Steve Strickland, sgs8r@virginia.edu)
Subject: Re: Diemburger and Scott lectures
Organization: Dept. of Systems Eng., U.Va.
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 18:25:46 GMT

In article <BxK5wo.1Kw@world.std.com> gnray@world.std.com (Garry N Ray) writes:
>
>  Do these fellows ever lecture in the U.S.? Or any of the other European
>  paragons I've been idolizing for the past 15 years?
>

They do. Over the last decade I've seen Doug Scott and Rebuffat (sponsored by
the Smithsonian/AAC?) in D.C., and Diemburger (sponsored by the Harvard
Mountaineering Club). Fantastic lectures all.

But these things tend to be organized by (somewhat stodgy) organizations like
AAC, AMC, HMC, REI, etc., so you need to maintain some kind of connection to
find out about them. Worth it (IMHO).

-Steve Strickland
From: tom@afthree.as.arizona.edu (Thomas J. Trebisky)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: Trip Report: A Day in Eldorado
Date: 12 Nov 92 19:22:54 GMT
Organization: University of Arizona, Tucson, AZ

billw@ace.mentorg.com (Bill Wright) writes:
>The authorities were
>checking everyone's ID as they left the park and even asked what climbing
>route I had been on.  He didn't let me escape without making a crack about
>me being from California.  Is there an attitude problem towards
>Californians in Colorado?
>I know this problem exists to some extent in the Northwest.

I think there is an attitude problem towards anybody who is not from
Colorado.  Xenophobia.
This problem also exists to some extent in the Northwest.
--
	Tom Trebisky	ttrebisky@as.arizona.edu
...."There's no sense in being precise when you don't even
.... know what you're talking about." 
                       - John von Neumann
From: hall@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Hal F Lillywhite)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: who owns the bolts?
Date: 10 Nov 92 15:01:57 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Tektronix Inc., Beaverton, Or.

In article <BxGLrG.FEA@rice.edu> nelsonm@owlnet.rice.edu (Mark James Nelson) writes:

>>Ownership implies responsibility which implies liability...

>What is wrong with the "bolts become part of the rock" point of view?

>Ownership does not imply responsibility for natural disasters, like
>a handhold pulling off or the like.  If considered a part of the rock,
>bolt failure would fall into the same category.

...

>I'm sure this idea is not original; has the forest service (or any other
>landowner, for that matter) raised any valid objections to it?

Unfortunately it matters little what the forest service or other
landowners would like.  In this case what matters is the opinions of
lawyers, judges and juries.  You, I, the USFS, and all the
landowners in the country can agree that the bolt is part of the
rock and therefore if it fails the poor victim was simply in the way
of a natural disaster.  So what?  We're not going to be the ones
deciding how much the landowner has to pay the guy (unless we happen
to be on the jury - and the prosecuting attorney will try to screen
us out).  Face it folks, we have a legal climate in the U.S which
flat stinks.  The victim is never at fault, someone else must always
pay.  Too many times that someone who pays had little or nothing to 
do with the accident.  No matter, the victim deserves compensation, 
right?  So what if a family farm is lost or someone is forced out of 
business through little or no fault of their own.  :-(

The only solution I can think of to this state of affairs is tort
reform.  This will not happen without a *lot* of pressure from the
public.  Lawyers know which side their bread is buttered on and it
is not the side of cutting down on lawsuits.  Since most legislative
bodies in this country are dominated by lawyers we can't expect
them to reform on their own.  Any real reform will likely be the
result of initiative legislation or significant public pressure on
legislators.
From: trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU (wayne trzyna)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: Ommission to my chopper post
Date: 7 Nov 92 01:02:47 GMT
Organization: Colorado State University, Computer Science Department

In article <1992Nov6.084724.60453@cc.usu.edu> sinclair@cc.usu.edu (Bob Sinclair) writes:
>At our meeting, a couple of people were asking the FS if they would issue
>citations if they caught anyone chopping. One post mentions vandalism of
>our property. M<y understanding was that placing a bolt is actually allowd
>but not 'protected' in any way.


The problem is that once the bolt is chopped, another hole must be
drilled to replace it (assuming the consensus in the climbing community
is that it was a "good" bolt.)  Hence, chopping should be treated the
same way as drilling a superfluous hole in the rock.  I think
existing vandalism statutes would then apply.

Another way to treat this, is that once a bolt is placed it
becomes property of the park.  One is not allowed to vandalize
garbage cans and outhouses, for instance.

The climbing community needs to help the law enforcment community
understand these subtleties.

Of course, what this is all going to lead to is the formation of
bolt approval committees ...sad, but inevitable, and not as sad
as scarred up rock.

-- 

-Wayne Trzyna
 trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU
From: rob@minster.york.ac.uk
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: Nicky's leap. North wales???
Date: 10 Nov 92 13:03:53 GMT
Organization: Department of Computer Science, University of York, England

Bob Sinclair (sinclair@cc.usu.edu) wrote:
: We were sitting in the bar last night, slurping some swill, when we saw
: ....
: the full story behind the 'route' called Nicky's leap that was written up
: in the North wales guide around 6 years ago - a jump from a high place intp
: (Damn, I can't type worth beans today and cannot get back to prev line with
: Bob.
----

I dont know the full story BUT the 'route' is in the Llanberis slate quarries
(Vivian Quarry to be precise) and the guide book says ...

** Nicki's Leap  80 feet, Ungradeable -- the compelling jump (for some)
   into the pool from the top of the penninsula. Wetsuit reccomended


the starts are for quality 0 to 3 stars.  No history in the currnet Llanberis
guide there may be more detail in the new slate guide.  It looks a bloody
long way from beside the pool, Id hate to think of how high it looks
from on top!

Rob.
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: pbradd@bmerh734.bnr.ca (Patrick Bradd)
Subject: Half Dome Partner Needed
Reply-To: pbradd@bnr.ca
Organization: BNR Ottawa, DMS International Software Design
Date: Thu, 05 Nov 92 18:12:29 GMT

I'm posting this for a friend:


      I'm looking for a climbing partner to climb The regular route
      on half dome, it's 5.9/A2. I want to climb it in Aug/Sept of 93.
      This message is a little premature but what the hay. If interested,
      please call (613)763-5420 (work #) or just post it on the net and
      I'll read the message.

      Thnx,
        Ken Parker


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Patrick Bradd       Bell Northern Research, Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
pbradd@bnr.ca       DMS International Software Design
From: eric@milton.u.washington.edu (Eric Hirst)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: IMAX theaters
Date: 5 Nov 92 05:40:24 GMT
Article-I.D.: milton.eric.720942024
Organization: University of Washington

sinclair@cc.usu.edu (Bob Sinclair) writes:

>Anyone heard anything about an IMAX theater presentation that includes
>footage of a climber taking a big whipper? A colleague at work said he
>saw such a film in San-somewhere or another, but had no further details.
>Claimed it was pretty good though.

Truly the worst climbing footage I've ever seen.  Hero-man free climbing
big wall with rope but no evidence of a belayer or other system.  Makes
hard moves, trundles big boulders, falls on the 5.6 bit, dangles on frayed
rope, swings in space, further fraying the rope, grabs rock just as the
rope breaks in two.  It might be a fun one to take your worrying mother
to if you're feeling sadistic.

>Bob.

Eric Hirst
eric@u.washington.edu
From: Gen.M.Kanai@dartmouth.edu (Gen M. Kanai)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: Glacier Glasses Information Request
Date: 6 Nov 92 03:41:44 GMT
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH
X-Posted-From: InterNews1.0a5@newshost.dartmouth.edu

Julbos are amazing as glacier glasses.  Spend the $60.  It is worth it.
 To counteract fogging, I would try "Cat Crap" which is a defogger of
sorts.  As long as I keep moving, I dont have a problem with fogging,
but as soon as I stop to rest, they do fog.  I doubt you can have
sideflaps and no fogging...
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: ande@sierra.com (Ande Rychter)
Subject: RE: Altimeters - 8000m+  mechanical vs. digital vs. GPS
Organization: Sierra Geophysics Inc.,  Kirkland, Wa
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 01:14:31 GMT

In <8201@lhdsy1.lahabra.chevron.com> Chris Thompson writes:

> I have a Thommen which is rated to 6000m. I've never been
> able to find out what happens to it *above* 6000m (having
> come close to but not exceeding that elevation).
> Does anybody know about the accuracy above the spec elevation?
> Presumably the accuracy is reduced, but dramatically so?

Fairly dramatically.  At about 6,400 m the needle will start flopping back
and forth covering a couple of hundred of meters.  This behaviour vanishes
when you descend below the critical altitude. -AR.

Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: tom@afthree.as.arizona.edu (Thomas J. Trebisky)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: RElearning to lead
Date: 12 Nov 92 19:55:33 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Arizona, Tucson, AZ

AS.MSW@forsythe.stanford.edu (Marc Whitney) writes:
>ilana@kiowa.scd.ucar.edu (Ilana Stern) writes:
>>eru@watson.ibm.com (Erich Ruetsche) writes:
>>> Climbing is first of all fun !! So learning to lead should be done in an
>>> area where leading can be doen without any fear. That means good holds
>>> and good anchors == BOLTS.
>I hope everyone realized that good anchors do NOT neccessarily equal
>bolts.  Almost anyone who has climbed for a while has reached a bolt
>anchor that makes you blood run cold!!

The statement that good anchors == BOLTS certainly rang my bell.  This is
a widely held misconception.  Why do you so blindly trust someone elses
work, or make such a sweeping statement? I can see reasons for recommending
certain bolted routes to a novice leader, such as:

	No need to think about where and how to put in protection.
	No need for routefinding skills (just connect the dots).
	No need to expend time and energy putting in protection.
	Less risk of poorly placed pro, nuts falling out, ...

On the other hand, some bolted routes (Tuolumne, Glacier Point Apron),
can be severely run-out.  Others involve old rusty 1/4 inch bolts that
have endured many years of temperature cycling and untold numbers of falls.
Even large diameter and apparently well placed bolts can be unsafe.

On easier routes (5.6 or 5.7), there are perfectly reasonable stances to
spend all day picking out the appropriate nut of choice and get in fine
protection that is as good as any bolt.  This is time well spent acquiring
skills for use on harder routes.

I spent yesterday swapping leads with a fellow who is a novice leader.
He had lead one pitch before in his life, and has been on maybe four other
climbs, but he has half a brain and a cool head and did a fine job leading
3 pitches (5.7 to 5.8) using wired nuts, hexcentrics, and friends (not to
mention slings on chickenheads).  I don't think I could have done any better
or that he could have been any safer.  We had a great day.
--
	Tom Trebisky	ttrebisky@as.arizona.edu
...."There's no sense in being precise when you don't even
.... know what you're talking about." 
                       - John von Neumann  
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: jking@socs.uts.edu.au (smathy werp)
Subject: Re: UIAA .. standards of ropes (The Fall Test)
Organization: Computing Sciences, Uni of Technology, Sydney.
Date:  9 Nov 92 05:25:34 GMT

runekol@hsr.no (Rune Koldal) writes:

>In article <jking.720658822@syzygy>, jking@socs.uts.edu.au (smathy werp) writes:
>> j_elison@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Jeff Elison) writes:
>> 
>> > 
>> >> 	the UIAA falls use a 5m length of rope (conversion above) and a
>> >> 	biner 2.5m along the rope .. they then lift the weight (80kg on a
>> >> 	single rope) as high as they can above the biner (ie. 2.5m above the
>> >> 	biner .. ie. the fall will be 5m on a 2.5m length fallen on) and then
>> >> 	release it
>> 
>> >Wrong and wrong.  First, that's not what they do.  The drop is 4.8m on
>> >2.8m of rope.
>> 
>  And wrong again, the UIAA fall is 5m with 2.8m rope.

	i think weve been through this before .. enough about the test ..
	either it is different in different coutries .. or the catalogues
	that we have obtained our facts from are wrong .. or they have
	changed .. who cares anymore ??

>  Because of the reduced impact force when the rope is
>lying over a biner, this is the best (most realistic) way
>to test the rope.

	realistic ?? . actually dont answer .. i dont care anymore .. silly
	silly silly ..
 
	thats all
--


	| Life: Jason | IRC: elephant | email: jking@socs.uts.EDU.AU |
From: nicolas@stam.nl (Nico Veenkamp)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: Decking on the 1st Pitch of Touch and Go
Keywords: terminology, lingo, thread
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 92 11:48:23 CET
Organization: Stam Tijdschriften bv, Rijswijk, The Netherlands

tom@afthree.as.arizona.edu (Thomas J. Trebisky) writes:

> > What is a "thread for a runner?"  I never heard the term.
> 
> He is talking about a natural hole or passage in the rock that you can
> thread a runner thru and use for protection or an anchor.  When the rock
> involved is solid these are really bomber, and omnidirectional -- great
> for belay anchors.  Not to mention that they are just neato!

Aha! That is what I would call an hourglass (direct translation from the 
dutch term) and your right, they are great for belaying. When I see a 
good one I always use it.


      *================================================================*
      |  Nico Veenkamp	        | You write, we publish                |
      |  Stam Tijdschriften bv  | -------------------------------------|
      |  P.O. Box 235           | Internet : nicolas@stam.nl           |
      |  2280 AE  Rijswijk      | FidoNet  : 2:281/1.7                 |
      |  The Netherlands        | BIX      : nicolas                   |
      *================================================================*
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: 93asw@williams.edu (Andrew Wright)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: IMAX theaters
Date: 5 Nov 92 20:24:00 GMT
Followup-To: rec.climbing
Organization: Williams College

The name of the file was in fact "To the Limit"
When the film first came out, i was working at an Imax theater for my
mother, who was involved on the production of the movie. I got to know the
movie quite well in the course of watching it 3 times a day for a summer. 

The movie focused on the limits of the human body.  In addition to the
climbing, ballet and skiing great shots included endoscopic shots of
arteries, hearts and ears through fiber-optic cables.   

Th climbing was well done from the perspective of someone who likes
suspensefull movies, but not quite as accurate as a climber might hope. 
The scene in question here involved Tony's rope fraying as he was climbing
over the lip of an overhang.  He had a hand and a heel hook barely
supporting him and had to lunge to get another hand on.  Just as he lunged,
the rope breaks, but his desparation move saved the day.  The scoop from
tony, who I had dinner with on his promotion tour, was that he had an
additional rope on him that went from his waist, under his pants and out
the cuff to attach to a bolt in the rock.  If you look closely while
watching the movie, you can actually see the purple safety rope stretching
from his foot to the rock.

Another of the less than accurate shots was his screamer wich was staged
over a safety net.  He did actually take the fall on the rope, which must
have been significantly more painfull than a bungee cord drop of the same
length.  I can't remember off hand exactly far he fell, but if asnyone is
interested, i could probably find out.  I believe it was a couple of
hundred feet.

Finally, another staged shot was on El Cap, where Tony was seen bivouacing
in a sack hanging from a couple of bolts.  After the shot, he rapplelled
down and stayed in a hotel that night.

All in all, though, the movie is definitely one that is worth watching. 
The skiing segment is also very well done, as is the ballet.

Andrew Wright
93asw@williams.edu
Jellybirdbigbangboom
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: davin@hardy.u.washington.edu (David Veale)
Subject: Re: Light and warm sythetic bag: PARADOX?
Organization: University of Washington
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 01:41:02 GMT

Gen.M.Kanai@dartmouth.edu (Gen M. Kanai) writes:

>I figure this newsgroup is the best place to start.

>I am looking for a light and warm synthetic sleeping bag, and I think
>that this might be a paradox.  Everyone knows that down is light,
>compactable and warm, but sucks when wet.  

>I am considering the "Gold-Eck" bags sold by Mountain Tools, but I have
>no idea how good they are.  Does anyone on the net have any experience
>or heard second or even third hand info on these bags?

>My requirements are -20 degrees, long, not necessarily Gore-Tex, but
>synthetic and lightweight!  For instance, the North Face Tangerine
>Dream is a nice bag, but it weighs 8-9 lbs!  I dont want anything that
>heavy or extreme. 

>Can anyone tell me what fill they like and why?  Does anyone have a
>good idea for me?  How about bivy bags?

>thanks in advance, 
>Gen.Kanai@Dartmouth.EDU

If you want a -20 degree bag, water shouldn't really be a problem; there
is really no water at temperatures in which you would use a bag like that in.
I know several people who use down bags (goretex preferred) with no
problems, and in the Cascades of all places!  I'd have one too if I could
afford it.  I've also been thinking about the same question you posted,
but mostly because of price, not water.

Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: Doug.Hemken@launchpad.unc.edu (Doug Hemken)
Subject: Re: "bolts become part of the rock"
Organization: University of North Carolina Extended Bulletin Board Service
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 20:03:13 GMT

Yup, you could consider bolts a part of the route and a part of the rock. 
I think most climbers today give bolts no more consideration than if they
were a natural feature of the rock, as much a part of the route as any
crystal or solution pocket.  That's one of the differences between clipping
bolts and placing your own gear:  when you place your own gear, you are
forced to think about it (at least a little more).  The traditional
climber carries her technology with her, and works with nature as it is,
while the sport climber carries only part of her technology, and perceives
the bolts and rock as "nature".  If you were philosophically inclined, you
might claim that the two types of climbing are epistemologically distinct,
which is merely to say that your perception of nature in each case is
different, and you can focus your attention on different aspects of
climbing.  If you enjoy exploring the rock in its native state, the only
good bolt is a bolt that you placed yourself.  If you like to focus on
yourself and the gymnastics, you may prefer the bolts to become part of
the rock (so that you don't have to waste energy on mundane matters like
safety).  Both approaches to climbing have their appeal, and I enjoy them
both.

That said, I think it would be a mistake for any of our various government
agencies charged with preserving the environment to consider bolts "a part
of the rock".  I'd rather they kept things clear:  rock is rock and
technology is technology.  I'm pretty sure that most environmentalists
don't have too much trouble with this distinction!  If bolts are being
chopped by climbers, that's something to be worked out among climbers, not
"naturalized" to be the Forest Service's problem.  (And if bolts are being
chopped by the Monkey Wrench Gang, I doubt the bolts can ever be naturalized!)

-=> Doug Hemken
--
   The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the University of
     North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the Campus Office for Information
        Technology, or the Experimental Bulletin Board Service.
           internet:  laUNChpad.unc.edu or 152.2.22.80
From: Paul.Williams@brunel.ac.uk (Paul M Williams)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: Bowles: UK mini-report
Date: 11 Nov 92 13:58:39 GMT
Organization: Brunel University, Uxbridge, UK
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]

L.Dekker@cs.ucl.ac.uk wrote:
: Mind you, give me gritstone, any day...
: 
: Perhaps this could be the start of a new argument... Why gritstone
: is infinitely superior (:-> ) to sandstone/limestone/granite...
: 
Find me a gritstone (or limestone for that matter) out crop I can reach in less than 40 minutes (the time it takes me to get to Harrisons or Bowles or High Rocks) and I'll gladly climb on that in preference.

Us London climbers can't be choosy!!

In the mean time I'll carry on in the indoor walls, and what a carry on!!!


Paul.
Newsgroups: rec.climbing