From: eradm@wbst845e.xerox.com (Erik Radmall)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Re: atheists & agnostics
Date: 4 Jan 93 18:27:58 GMT
Reply-To: eradm@wbst845e.xerox.com
Organization: Xerox Corporation

In article mRXuwB3w165w@mantis.co.uk, mathew@mantis.co.uk (mathew) writes:
> patc@extro.ucc.su.OZ.AU (Pat Caldon) writes:
> > In article <540RVB1w165w@mantis.co.uk> mathew <mathew@mantis.co.uk> writes:
> > >patc@extro.ucc.su.OZ.AU (Pat Caldon) writes:
> > >> >Buddhism isn't really derived from Hinduism; in its early years, it was m
> > >> >of a backlash against Hinduism.  You might as well argue that the Church 
> > >> >the SubGenius is derived from Christianity.
> > >> 
> > >> I meant "derived" in the sense that Islam is derived from Judaism.
> > >
> > >Yes, so did I.
> > 
> > I don't think there was the same element of satire in the founding of
> > Buddism. (SFSF)
> 
> I have heard it argued that a number of Buddhist texts are similar in style
> to Hindu writings, but with the style and wording 'twisted' to express
> Buddhist ideas.  I'm not familiar enough with Hindu texts to know whether
> this is true or not.
> 
> > The question was "Is Bh^Huddhism atheist?" I said that it is derived
> > from Hinduism, not in the sense of a joke, but in many ways seems (to my
> > admittedly limited perception) to have a common philosophy, reincarnation
> > being a prime example.
> 
> Yeah, but the Buddhist idea of 'reincarnation' isn't your standard "same
> consciousness in new body" deal.

The philosophies of both Hinduism and Buddhism are similar in many respects.
Indeed, it would be difficult to see how it could be otherwise, since the
Shakyamuni Buddha grew up in the midst of Hindu culture. The main difference, I
would suppose, is that Buddhism's emphasis is on direct enlightenment, at the expense 
of metaphysical speculation (except for Tantric Buddhism in Tibet), 
whereas Hinduism allows a more flexible approach. Ultimately, however, both concern 
themselves with the direct experience of "Self", or supreme consciousness. Rituals and 
metaphysics serve to help those who are less "spiritually" developed along the path to 
enlightment.

Reincarnation is a little more complicated. There is no truly definitive view of
reincarnation that I am aware of in either Buddhism or Hinduism. One thing
common to both, however, is that one must be "human" to release one's self from
the cycle of rebirth. Hindus believe one can reincarnate as a lower or higher
life form (from plant to demi-god). It is far less clear in Buddhism, except that there are "heavens" and "hells" (the six realms of existence) one can be reborn in
according to the type of karma one accumulates in a lifetime. The common factor in both views, however, is that these heavens and hells are _not_ permanent. When one's bad
(or good) karma expires, one winds up being reborn as a human. The only release from
karma and rebirth is full enlightenment _during_ a human lifetime.

This is the most significant dividing line betweeen Hinduism/Buddhism and Christianity,
Judiasm, and Islam. According to H/B, one _must_ reach enlightenment while still
alive, which does away entirely with the "faith" element.

> 
> >                        As such it is not inconsistent (IMHO again) to
> > suggest that Buddism is not atheist. (quadruple negative urrgh) Again
> > from what I have seen of Buddist ritual (use of prayer wheels, for instance)
> > it doesn't seem to be atheist.
> 
> The fact that one is praying does not imply that there is a literal
> supernatural being that one is praying to.

True. In fact, the the "object" of "prayer" in Buddhism is not some god,
rather, it is one's own "Buddha-nature" -- which is to say one's own already
perfect nature, or ultimate Self.

>  
> 
> mathew



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