From: lewc@oakhill.sps.mot.com (Lew Chua-Eoan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.filipino
Subject: Re: Filipino-Chinese Kidnappings
Date: 8 Nov 92 06:27:24 GMT
Organization: Motorola Inc., Austin, Texas


---- part 3 of a 4 part series------------------------------------

--- stuff implying Estrada being used as a scapegoat deleted  since       ---
--- Francis arguement that Ramos has nothing to gain since he is a 1-term ---
--- president applies                                                   -----

>   - Ramos controlled the military argument deleted -
>> - stuff deleted since subject already addressed above -
>Ditto. (Perfect score arguement.)
>Same here. Needless military deaths and destruction argument to rebut this.
Ditto. (arguement that Ramos is not god and this dosen't mean he knows nothing).

>>In your first post, you held Estrada up as the only bright light in the 
>>whole mess. Now you argue that he is incompetent. And I still don't see how 
>>appointing Estrada proves Ramos is behind all this.

I believe there contradiction here. Never said he was incompetent just outgunned,
but this is a dead issue.  My conclusion about Estrada is faulty.

>>>4. Why did he let Gen. Cesar Nazareno, the national police chief, and
>>>many other accused and lower ranking military and police walk 
>>>away so easily?
>
>>Although I read a couple of news reports implicating the General and Major 
>>Pring, I don't have the facts. Give me facts. Cite your sources. Make the 
>>case.
>
>I think you can find this is the net-news posting and other UPI sources as
>well
>as other press releases from Manila.  I believe it is readily available.
>Look them up.
>Come on Lew, you don't expect me to do your homework for you. You are the 
>one making the argument. The burden of proof is on you. By the way, I do 
>read the news. I just don't know which news items you think support your 
>argument.

Since you want detail lets begin with the UPI new reports:

<86915@netnews.upenn.edu> which went:
       LINGAYEN, Philippines (UPI) -- President Fidel Ramos on Saturday
sacked Gen. Cesar Nazareno, the national police chief, for inefficiency
amid reports of his alleged involvement in criminal activities.
       Nazareno has been linked by news reports to illegal gambling and a
series of kidnappings involving wealthy Filipino-Chinese businessmen or
their family members.
       A graduate of the elite Philippine Military Academy.....
       Nazareno would be assigned to the office of the president, Ramos
said.
pertaining to the stats and frequency of abductions:
<21 Sept 92: netnews.upenn.edu>
...... Kidnapping syndicates have been victimizing rich Chinese-Filipino
businessmen and their families who prefer to pay ransom instead of going
to the authorities.
        Corrupt policemen are believed to be behind the abductions which have
fast become a lucrative enterprise in the country.
        Teresita Ang See, a Chinese civic leader, said at least 22 Chinese-
Filipinoshave been abducted since August. She said their families paid
more than $4 million in ransom......
<13 Oct 92: netnews.upenn.edu>
....... Maurice Greenberg, head of an investment mission composed of
executives from 27 U.S. firms, said the group would not be deterred by a
spate of kidnappings, preying mostly on wealthy members of the local
Chinese community.
<25 Sept 92:China News Digest (Global Service) II>
.......Chinese-Filipino sources say more than 22 of their minority have been
seized
in Manila since Aug. 4, and dozens of others have been kidnapped on
Mindanao
Island. Many of the crimes are never reported because of suspicions police
are involved..........

< Another UPI report>.....(Estrada people)freed a Chinese teenager and
killed three of her suspected kidnappers, including a rogue police
officer and an army soldier, Vice President Joseph Estrada said early
Saturday.
.........Hours earlier, members of Estrada's task force ambushed four other
members of the gang as they drove toward a rendezvous to collect the
ransom for Lim. One gang member, a police officer, was killed.....
        At least 25 Chinese businessmen or their relatives have been snatched
since Aug. 4. Their families are believed to have paid a total of at
least $2 million in ransom.
        Many kidnap victims say they are reluctant to report their abductions
to the police because of widespread fears that police officers and
soldiers are involved in the gangs.


>>>>5. The lack of support from the Filipino-Chinese business' leaders in
>>>>the last election, and his narrow victory at the polls, may have alienated
>>>>the minority in his eyes.
>>
>>>You are passing pure speculation as proof. 
>>>In the first place we do know that many CFs supported him. Second, CFs 
>>>constitute < 2% of the voting public. Even if all CFs voted against him, 
>>Ramos would still win. If Ramos were out to *get* a particular group, the 
>>>Tarlaquenos, Batanguenos, Warays, the home provinces of his other 
>>>opponents would be easier and likelier targets. 75% of the country voted 
>>>for candidates other than Ramos. Is he trying to *get* them too?
>>
>>Yes, but it was you who said Ramos needed Cory's support.  You have
>>insisted that she carried a large enough Filipino-Chinese vote which
>>you suggest tipped the scales in Ramos favor. 
>Wrong! He needed Cory Aquino's support because she had broad support from
>the Filipino people in general. With respect to the CF community, I argued 
>that it is a small electorate and in any case does not vote as a block 
>anyway.

Then I did not get the geist of your statement when you said:
"Yes and Corazon Aquino is Chinese Filipino and so is her family and I 
suspect she has a following in the CF community. Let's face it. Ramos would 
never her won without her endorsement"

I thought you were making the point that she would bring in FC votes
since she was FC herself. And her endorsement brought a bunch of
FC votes Ramos way, from which I surmised a contradiction.
My apologies.

>>I was a extremely tight race and every vote counted.  You are
>>also running on the premise that Filipino-Chinese lobby makes up only
>>a "<2%" voting block.  I think this is not quite the case.  A political
>>lobby can influence voters in many ways. 
>Wait. So are you saying that the CFs are a powerful voting block or not? 
>If you are saying they are NOT, then it's not clear to me why you think 
>Ramos bothers to 'punish' them. It also contradicts your last paragraph, 
>i.e., that they have a greater influence than their numbers suggest. 
>If you are saying that they ARE a powerful voting block, then it is 
>inconsistent with your next two sentences.
>>Besides, the Filipino-Chinese
>>are the easiest of groups to subjegate.  They really don't have
>>to many political advocates unlike the other groups in the country.
>So which one is it? Powerful or not?

You were suggesting that they represented only <2% of the voting public.
I was suggesting they could sway more votes then this 2% you ascribe. 
And I am suggesting that in a tight electoral race they are a factor.
Your rebuttle was to the effect that there are other identifiable groups
who are factors, to which I added that the Fil-Chinese the easiest to
pick on since they have no advocates.
So they may throw a decisive vote when it comes to a close election.
Which was what happend.  We had a close election.  

>>>What I am suggesting here is that the governments indifference, 
>
>>You already admitted that the government has a high-level program 
>>to combat the CF kidnapping problem.
>
>I believe there is a charter in place but I also believe that it is
>ineffective.  Yes, I agree with you, if what you mean by "high-level
>program" is media coverage in the creation of the PCC.
>Good! We agree on something. Now I'd like to see that the basis of your 
>allegations that the crime program is ineffective is real crime statistics 
>rather than your own personal biases. I have an open mind and I am more 
>than willing to listen.

The monthy stats since are given above.  And these "personal biases",
as you call them were formed with these numbers and the fact that
reported kidnappings were less then these before the new administration
took office. And from credible reports from the community at large.

>>the presidents policy of lightly slapping accused military and police
>>officals,
>>Cite facts and source. 
Cited above.
>
---- deleted request for more data --------------

>>It is believed by many pundits that Estrada has what it takes to do the job. 
>>You yourself praised a major accomplishment of his.
>
>He saved the woman, but to say he is winning his current crime battle is 
>something else.

But weren't you the one who said that he was 'effective'? And is that his 
only accomplishment?

There is only one effective case that I know which relates to the kidnapping of
a Filipino-Chinese individual.

>>and his being a former chief of staff of the AFP
>>>Which proves what?
>
>He knows more about the working and doing of the AFP bar none.
>
Agreed.
>
>He may know more about these conspiracies, their authors, then he lets on.
>Ditto. (Perfect score..network of people agruement)
>
>I have already rebutted this. He may have a network of people there but 
>the fact that in the last coup, he had his people die, the DND HQ bombed, 
>Malacanang bombed, Makati occupied by rebels, sniper fire on the streets 
>of Manila, coup leaders escaping, military bases taken over, etc. 
>proves that there are many conspiracies in the AFP that he is not privy to.
Ditto. (not God arguement etc..)

-- stuff deleted about elephants and bridges -----

>
>>>The fact of the matter is the frequency of these violent crimes have
>>>increased,
>>>due to an ineffective crime program and policy of the present government.
>>>It is reported that many more gangs are now involved.  The cycle of violence
>>>is perpetuated due to inept policy and resolve.
>>I may or may not disagree with you here. I do not have enough info 
>>to assess the success of the governments anit-crime program. However, 
>>your allegations require facts. Cite stats from a credible source, then 
>>we'll talk.
>
>Look at the recent New York Times, the widely circulated Chinese 
>"World Journal", the UPI notes on this SCF net, and look at the local
>paper like the "The Star","Bulletin", etc... add to this fact, stories
>from friends, fellow alumni and relatives who have been directly and
>indirectly
>affected by these crimes.  
>
---- stuff deleted --------------
>
>>This was under martial law, Marcos had absolute power and a controlled 
>>press. Ramos is operating under a democratic constitution with checks and 
>>balances and a very free press. 
>
>We are hopefully at the beginning of a new political era in the Philippines,
>these checks and balances have been dead for more then a decade, and some
>would argue even longer.  Justice and compensation has still not been 
>accorded to many Filipinos who were oppressed and brutally abused under the
>past dictatorship.  So far I've only seen the legistative body of government 
>being effective on behalf of special interest groups.  It is far from a
>true democratic system of checks and balances, this is not to say that
>the reforms instituted by the previous administration will not come to 
>fruition in the future. 
>
That the political era is new I agree. But to argue that:
>
>Therefore a political power structure can exist
>whereby an unopposed executive branch of government truly dictates policy
>(similar to the situation in Lee-Kuan Yu's government).
>
>is to ignore the last six years. If this were true, then the US Bases Treaty 
>which the Aquino government negotiated should have passed. It did not. All 
>the previous presidential appointees should have been approved. They were 
>not. The most prominent reject is Miriam Defensor-Santiago who I thought 
>would have done a great job. If the executive is unopposed, then all 
>the cases against Imelda Marcos would have been resolved by now in the 
>government's favor. They have not. And if the executive is unopposed, then 
>there would have been no unflattering articles on the Aquino government and 
>no reports of scandals in the media. There were and there were a lot. These 
>are but a few examples where the legislature, the judiciary and the media has 
>checked the executive.

We are talking the Ramos Administration and the possibility of executive
dominance in his term. And are the assumptions above valid in respect to
the Ramos administration vs the Aquino Administration?
Somehow I believe things may go his way more
smoothly being from both sides of the fence and being
someone who know the military.  Plus the fact that there
is a mood in country which cries out for economic progress and
this maybe at the cost of the checks and balances in the Aquino government.

>>>Incidentally, Marcos targetted his political opponents - Aquino, Lopez, 
>>Jacinto, etc. - not the CF as a community. In fact, a few CFs themselves 
>>>benefitted including Cojuangco, Consunji, Dewey Dee, Ongpin, Sycip, etc.
>>
>>Maybe in the beginning this was the case, but near the end of dictatorship,
>>Cocoy, Imelda and cronies were targeting other smaller outfits as well,
>>most of which were run by Filipino-Chinese families. 
>>
>Which acquisitions of Imelda and Kokoy were race motivated? Please cite them.

I'd rather not talk about it in this forum. I'll send you mail on
the point of examples.

>>
>>(I'm not familiar
>>with the cases of Ongpin and Sycip. You are talking about the
>>late Jaime Ongpin 
>>
>No, Roberto, who was the Minister of Commerce if I remember correctly and 
>the de facto governor of the 'Binondo Central Bank'. Remember him?
>>
>>and the Sycip brothers -i.e. SGV are you not?).
>>
>Right. Henry Sycip's company got the auditing contracts of many of the crony 
>corporations and government corporations. 
>>
>>Yes, a few supposed Filipino-Chinese families benefited from the
>            -------- what does this mean?
>>Maros era, but so did their are a countless other families like the
>>Benedictos,
>>Disinis (herdis group of companpines fame), Romuldezes, Gapuds, 
>>all Imdela's "Blue Ladies" etc...etc...etc.. But I am straying from my point,
>>the fact is a lot of Filipinos were hurt economically ( and a few 
>>physically) the previous dictatorship- Filipino-Chinese included.
>>
>That's right. But this laundry list was in response to your statement:
>>
>Me:> The CF community has substantial economic and political power. He would 
>Me:> be stupid to try to cross them.
>>
>You:> It has been done before under the Marcos regime.  
>
>You gave me the impression that you thought CFs were targetted as a 
>community. It was not. What was targetted was Marcos' opponents, CF or 
>nonCF. If you were on the right side, you would have prospered regardless 
>of ethnicity.

The Fil-Chinese business' were prime target after all marcos' opposition
had been negated. At least the smaller business outfits 
( and excluding Fil-Chinese cronies of the Marcos regime).  

---- agreement about some probable causes edsa events...-------

End of part 3
------------------------------------------------------------------------------