From: leet@ims.com (Lee Thomas)
Subject: Re: Focus on Crucifiction (was: Cruxed for Prophecy?)
Organization: Integrated Measurement Systems, Inc.
	<LEET.92Oct5105230@dove.ims.com> <1992Oct6.184446.23437@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 16:59:44 GMT


One last post, Jan, and then I'll drop it - sorry, but Robert asked
for references ...  I enjoyed the chance to (if you will) dogfight
again with a highly skilled pilot, though.

>>>>> On 6 Oct 92 18:44:46 GMT, sheaffer@netcom.com (Robert Sheaffer) said:

Robert> In article <LEET.92Oct5105230@dove.ims.com> leet@ims.com (Lee Thomas) writes:
>
>Quoting off the top of my head, there was a skeleton found in Israel
>during an excavation for a housing project (1967?).  The box holding the
>skeleton bore the name "Yohanan Ben Ha'<something>" (I forget his last
>name); the skeleton bore evidence of crucifixion.  The heel bone still
>had a spike embedded in it.  Both legs were broken.  As I recall, the
>wrists showed evidence of having been worn by the action of the victim
>raising himself to breathe; this rotates the wrist bones against the
>crucifixion spike and thereby scrapes the bone.

Robert> Maybe we can get a little better information on this.

In June 1968, during the excavation for apartment buildings in
Jerusalem, a mile north of the Old Damascus Gate, an ancient Jewish
burial site was discovered.  It contained remains of 35 Jews in 15
stone ossuaries.  Reference:

    Vasilius Tzaferis, "Jewish Tombs At and Near Giv'at ha-Mivtar,"
    _Israel Exploration Journal_ 20 (1970), pp. 38-59.

One of the ossuaries had the name "Yonanan Ben Ha'galgol" written in
Aramaic on it, and it contained the skeleton of a man who had been
crucified.  The seven-inch nail still embedded in his heel bones
showed that he had been crucified with his knees twisted to one side.
The nail had acacia wood fragments near its head, then bone, then
olive wood from the crucifixion beam.  The radius bone was scratched
(from the entry of the nail?) and worn smooth (from the victim trying
to raise himself to breathe, then sinking back down).  Both tibias and
the left fibula were crushed, and had also been sawn at a later time.
Reference:

    Nica Haas, "Anthropological Observations on the Skeletal Remains
    from Giv'at ha-Mivtar," _Israel Exploration Journal_ 20 (1970),
    cited in Maier, _First Easter_ (New York: Harper and Row, 1973),
    pp.  78-80.

If some dedicated individual with access to a good research library
actually tracks these down (Roger?), I'd be willing to reimburse for
photocopying and postage so I could have copies for my files.  All I
have now is excerpts and summaries.

Robert> John Ata seems to think that Jesus SHOULD have died this
Robert> quickly. If so, why was Pilate depicted as being surprised?

Because John Ata has access to the entire story of Jesus's arrest and
trials (not to mention the fact that Jesus had slept little if at all
that night), whereas Pilate did not.

>Robert> (Another significant deletion is that of Mark's youth who fled
>Robert> naked in the garden, for reasons that might best be discussed
>Robert> on "soc.motss".)
>
>This has usually been interpreted to have been Mark himself, who was
>probably the best individual to have known how well the youth was
>dressed.  He fled naked (much to his shame) rather than be caught and
>arrested.  So, Robert, how does "soc.motss" come into the picture?

Robert> Well, the identification with Mark is purely conjectural. 

Robert> The link to "soc.motss" involves the argument that "the youth
Robert> who fled naked in the garden" in Mark (and conspicuously
Robert> ignored by Matthew and Luke) is the same as "the disciple
Robert> Jesus loved" in John, whose head Jesus cradled in his bosom.

But Matthew 26:20 says that the "Last Supper" was eaten with the
twelve, which would not include Lazarus (speaking parsimoniously).

Robert> The passages from the "Secret Gospel of Mark", discovered by
Robert> the late Morton Smith in a newly-found Epistle of Clement of
Robert> Alexandria (this IS legit, Smith's analysis of said Epistle
Robert> has been published by the Harvard Univ. Press) bring the
Robert> Lazarus story into Mark, and suggest that Beloved Disciple =
Robert> Naked Youth = Lazarus, which dovetails with the statement in
Robert> John that the Chief Priests sought to arrest Lazarus; hence,
Robert> the attempted arrest of the youth, which otherwise makes no
Robert> sense. (This is a very brief summary; the detailed argument is
Robert> in "The Making of the Messiah").

I could be persuaded to accept the idea that Lazarus was the naked
youth; I would require extraordinary evidence that a homosexual would
ever be accepted as the Messiah by First Century Jews, especially
people like John the Baptist, Joseph of Arimathea, and the Twelve.  If
you want to post such evidence, fine, but I won't follow up per JWN's
request.
--
Lee Thomas,  leet@ims.com      | "For I say unto you that except your
Integrated Measurement Systems |  righteousness shall exceed the righteousness
9525 SW Gemini Dr.             |  of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no
Beaverton, Or 97005            |  case enter into the kingdom of heaven."
(503) 626-7117, ext. 1558      |  - Matthew 5:20                         THUMP!