HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jewell@mace.cc.purdue.edu (Larry Jewell)
Subject: Part 14 and the Declaration of War by Japan.
Organization: Purdue University
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 22:08:49 GMT

One of the major misconceptions of WWII was that the last part of the 
"Fourteen Part Message" was a declaration of war against the United
States by Japan.  Nothing in that document declares that a state of war
exists between the two countries.

Here is a passage from John Toland's "Rising Sun" which indicates the
state of affairs vis-a-vis a declartion of war.  

"Japan had started the war but had yet to declare it.  At a hurriedly
assembled Cabinet meeting an hour before dawn, Navy Minister Shigetaro
Shimada calmly decribed the results of Pearl Harbor, cautioning his
listeners to make allowances for the exaggerations of bomber pilots. 
Hastily an imperial rescript declaring war was composed, signed and sent
on to the Privy Council." Pg. 285.

Larry J

-- 
#L.W. Jewell Moderator at the Veterans Information Site (veteran@cc.purdue.edu)#
#& WWII-L Listowner: "Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange,#
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Newsgroups: alt.war
From: hvaisane@cs.joensuu.fi (H. Vaisanen)
Subject: Greatest Military Lost Opportunity of All Time?
Organization: University of Joensuu
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1992 12:24:00 GMT

What is the Greatest Military Lost Opportunity of All Time?

With perfect hindsight (-: it seems that, had military force been used
in certain place and time, the present-day world would be totally
different. What are these places and times?
Of course, we must assume that the proposed military action would have
been succesful.

Finnish government should be high on the list for not carrying out the
plan by General Mannerheim of destroying the Bolshevik Russian
government in 1919...
Newsgroups: alt.war
From: pdunn@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Patrick L Dunn)
Subject: Re: Greatest Military Lost Opportunity of All Time?
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1992 21:08:52 GMT

In article <1992Oct16.122400.25307@cs.joensuu.fi> hvaisane@cs.joensuu.fi (H. Va
isanen) writes:
>What is the Greatest Military Lost Opportunity of All Time?
>
>With perfect hindsight (-: it seems that, had military force been used
>in certain place and time, the present-day world would be totally
>different. What are these places and times?
>Of course, we must assume that the proposed military action would have
>been succesful.
>
>Finnish government should be high on the list for not carrying out the
>plan by General Mannerheim of destroying the Bolshevik Russian
>government in 1919...

OK--how about Jefferson Davis not listening to Stonewall Jackson's plan to 
march on Washington immediately following the rout of the Union Army at First 
Manassas?

PDunn
Newsgroups: alt.war
From: haynes@cats.ucsc.edu (Jim Haynes)
Newsgroups: alt.war
Subject: Re: Greatest Military luck-outs of all time
Date: 13 Oct 1992 23:35:41 GMT
Organization: University of California; Santa Cruz
NNTP-Posting-Host: hobbes.ucsc.edu
Keywords: As a foil to the greatest blunders thread, how bout the times someone should have caught their lunch and didn't. My favorite:


Well not in the same class as JFK and the PT boat, but...

How about George Washington and the battle of Trenton - this from memory
of Page Smith's history -

   He needed secrecy, since the Hessians and English were much stronger.
   One subordinate commander got impatient for action and took a raiding
   party across the river during the day, which blew the secrecy.
   Washington was furious, but decided to go ahead with
   the main operation that night anyway.  The English had spies, so they
   knew Washington was planning an attack - and they assumed the
   little raid was it.  So they were totally surprised when Washington
   showed up at their barracks the next morning.

   Washington had planned things so he would arrive at Trenton about
   dawn and surprise the Hessians while they were still sleepy.  He had
   a lot of trouble getting the cannon loaded into boats and thus arrived
   at Trenton several hours later than planned.  The Hessians had in fact
   had a roll call about dawn; but because nothing was happening and they
   were all hung over from celebrating Christmas the night before, their
   officers allowed the men to go back to bed.  So they were in fact
   sleeping when Washington arrived.

   Washington had another army some distance away, which was supposed to
   march from a different direction and meet him in Trenton at dawn.
   If things had gone according to plan they would have arrived
   at Trenton hours before Washington and the main army, and would
   have tipped off the English.  But the weather was so lousy the
   commander of this group assumed Washington couldn't possibly go
   through with the operation, and kept his troops in camp.
-- 
haynes@cats.ucsc.edu
haynes@cats.bitnet

"Ya can argue all ya wanna, but it's dif'rent than it was!"
"No it aint!  But ya gotta know the territory!"
        Meredith Willson: "The Music Man"

Newsgroups: alt.war
From: randy@ms.uky.edu (Randy Appleton)
Subject: Re: Seawolf program (was Re: Greatest Military Blunders of All Time)
    <1992Oct7.145313.3806@pmafire.inel.gov> <BvrE3w.HCH@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 03:32:31 GMT
Organization: University Of Kentucky, Dept. of Math Sciences

cashman@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Geoff Cashman) writes:

>Both responses indicated that there are very few serious naval threats
>of appreciable size remaining in the world today for the U.S. Navy. 

>*somewhat* agreed. 

>1 - It can not be ignored that when a fleet enters an area with the 
>    intent of hostile action that it is entering a hostile area.

This is by definition, and really says nothing.    Both responces
(mine and the other guys) argue that the US navy is more than able to
handle any realisticly sized threat.

>2 - It can not be ignored that an increasing number of countries around
>    the world are seeing the utility of submarines as a part of their
>    navies.  Look into Jane's if you don't believe me :-)

True.  It is also true that most nations spend *much* more on their
air force than on their submarine forces.  For *most* nations the air
force is more of a threat to an American task force nearby than
submarine force.

>It is a known fact that the best ASW platform is another submarine.
>I would not want to enter a hostile environment with billion+ dollar
>carriers having my subsurface elements not being up to the task of
>defenses of those surface units. 

*NOT BY ANY MEANS*  I would argue that an ASW carrier (like the
Italians or Spanish have) is much better that the few submarines that
you could by for the same cost.  You could probably buy two frigates
for the price of a Centurion, or 1/2 of the carrier and airwing
Newsgroups: alt.war
From: ketil@bark.ii.uib.no (Ketil M. Malde)
Subject: Re: Greatest Military Blunders of All Time
Reply-To: ketil@ii.uib.no
Organization: student of computer science at the University of Bergen, Norway
Date: 11 Oct 92 02:47:03

In article <1992Sep28.165259.17464@linus.mitre.org> bwise@hemlock.mitre.org (Barry Wise) writes:

   The Arabs attacking Israel(anyone of numerous times)

Yep.  Never underestimate an opponenet. :-)

   The U.S. police action in Viet Nam

Oh?  I thought the situation in VN more or less evolved into what it
became, I wouldn't exectly call it a blunder (I'm sure there were
some, though) Perhaps it was a political  (as someone has already
pointed out) blunder, not to let the military do as they wanted?  I
don't know.

   The Soviet's police action in Afganistan

   Napoleon's Russian Campaign
   Hitler's Russian Campaign
   (I guess any winter attack in Russia actually)

   Pearl Harbor (guess which side blundered)

Well, I suppose you mean the Japanese? After all they took on an enemy
they had little chance of defeating.  But: the Americans lost a large
part of their fleet, and many lives were lost.  I dunno, they should
have been warned (yes, rumors has it, they were. And that the fleet
were left siting ducks on purpose.  Which makes the whole thing
political again...

Still, I don't see why on earth Japan should attack the US?

   Then there are all the tactical blunders....

   --
   Barry Wise
   (bwise@hemlock.mitre.org)

--
 = Ketil Malde                     In real life:  ketil@ii.uib.no =
 = Nuke the whales!                    Honk if you love unicorns! =
From: kingsley@hpwrce.mayfield.hp.com (Kingsley Morse)
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 23:53:51 GMT
Subject: Please Help
Organization: HP Western Response Center
Newsgroups: alt.war

              Please answer these 9 questions and return.

1.) Do you think equal rights for men and women is generally a good idea?
Yes                  [ ]
Sometimes            [ ]
No                   [ ]
Haven't heard enough [ ]
Other                [ ]

2.) Are you pro choice?
Yes                  [ ]
Sometimes            [ ]
No                   [ ]
Haven't heard enough [ ]
Other                [ ]

3.) Are you in favor of adoption?
Yes                  [ ]
Sometimes            [ ]
No                   [ ]
Haven't heard enough [ ]
Other                [ ]

4.) Do you think men should be allowed to legally terminate their parental
rights and responsibilities before fetal viability?
Yes                  [ ]
Sometimes            [ ]
No                   [ ]
Haven't heard enough [ ]
Other                [ ]

5.) What sex are you?
Male               [ ]
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6.) How old are you?
Under 18           [ ]
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7.) What religion are you?
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9.) How many years of education have you completed?
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From: jeffj@cbnewsm.cb.att.com (jeffrey.n.jones)
Newsgroups: alt.war
Subject: Re: Greatest Military Blunders of All Time
Date: 12 Oct 92 20:01:34 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: AT&T

In article <1992Oct12.150350@axion.bt.co.uk> ravis@axion.bt.co.uk (Richard Avis) writes:
>
>In article <6018@vexpert.dbai.tuwien.ac.at>, mst@vexpert.dbai.tuwien.ac.at (Markus Stumptner) writes:
>|> From article <KETIL.92Oct11024703@bark.ii.uib.no>, by ketil@bark.ii.uib.no (Ketil M. Malde):
>
>6) Last, but best - Operation Market Garden, the attempt to grab the bridge at Arnhem. 
>Left roughly 8000 British Airborne troops dead, wounded or captured. A REAL disaster!

If they had had any luck at all Monty would have been considered 
a hero! This was a excellent example of what could go wrong, will!

Jeff

-- 
 Jeff Jones  AB6MB         |      If we do not succeed,
 jeffj@seeker.mystic.com   |      then we run the risk of failure.
 Infolinc BBS 415-778-5929 |      Vice Pres. Dan Quayle
From: bigbro@netlink.cts.com (Kenneth Sullivan)
Newsgroups: alt.war
Subject: another blunder
Date: 15 Oct 92 22:32:24 GMT
Organization: NetLink Online Communications, San Diego CA

Early American Reveloutionary War... British land General Howe desinged a 
pincer plan to crush Washintons troops.  However, after sending Burgeoyne 
off to come from the North, Howe up and decides to take Philadelphia.  
When Burgeoyne comes down, he finds that Howe is not there, and loses the 
battle of Saratoga, securing French aid for America. 

--                    
INTERNET:  bigbro@netlink.cts.com (Kenneth Sullivan)
UUCP:   ...!ryptyde!netlink!bigbro
NetLink Online Communications * Public Access in San Diego, CA (619) 453-1115
From: mst@vexpert.dbai.tuwien.ac.at (Markus Stumptner)
Newsgroups: alt.war
Subject: Re: Greatest Military Blunders of All Time
Date: 16 Oct 92 11:23:05 GMT
Organization: DB and ES Subdivision, TU Vienna

From article <1992Oct16.042833.24451@ucsu.Colorado.EDU>, by buckley@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (BUCKLEY  CHARLES RAY):
	James Holthaus writes:
	I recall reading somewhere (in some unidentifible place) that the 
	Japanese left many large tanks of fuel untouched.

>The Japanese had incredible luck until the batlles started 
>but blew it once it began.

I'd say that was not bad luck, but a classic case of bad judgment.

-- 
Markus Stumptner                                mst@vexpert.dbai.tuwien.ac.at
University of Technology Vienna                 vexpert!mst@relay.eu.net
Paniglg. 16, A-1040 Vienna, Austria             ...mcsun!vexpert!mst
Xref: sparky alt.war:2073 alt.war.vietnam:216
From: bwise@hemlock.mitre.org (Barry Wise)
Subject: Re: Greatest Military Blunders of All Time
Organization: The MITRE Corporation
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 20:48:07 GMT

In article <14OCT199215551254@rover.uchicago.edu> frank@rover.uchicago.edu  
(Frank - Hardware Hacker - Borger) writes:

> 	Interesting that no one ever learns from these mistakes. The Argentin-
> 	eans never tried to attack the unarmed supply and support ships of
> 	the British fleet. I heard the commander of the British forces say
> 	that had they lost their supply ships, and been without ammo, fuel,
> 	etc. they would have had to withdraw.

Im, not totally true. One supply ship, Atlantic Conveyor(?), was sunk which did  
terrible things to the Brits logistics. I don't know if the attack was  
intentional though.

Barry Wise
From: frank@rover.uchicago.edu (Frank - Hardware Hacker - Borger)
Newsgroups: alt.war
Subject: Greatest Military luck-outs of all time
Keywords: As a foil to the greatest blunders thread, how bout the times
	someone should have caught their lunch and didn't. My favorite:
Date: 13 Oct 92 20:46:00 GMT
Reply-To: frank@rover.uchicago.edu
Organization: Joint Center for Radiation Therapy
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41


	Despite standing orders, JFK turns off his PT boat motors, then
	can't start the cranky things again and gets run over by a destroyer.
	Only his heroic rescue of wounded men saves him from a very probable
	court-martial, and the whole thing is glamorized by Hollywood.

   Frank R. Borger - Physicist    __       Internet:  Frank@rover.uchicago.edu
Michael Reese - Univ. of Chicago |___      Phone : 312-791-8075 fax : 567-7455
  Center for Radiation Therapy   | |_) _   Get in good physical condition before
                                   | \|_)  submitting to bondage. You should be
    "Birthplace of Softball"          |_)  fit to be tied. - Robert Byrne
Newsgroups: alt.war
From: cbj005@cck.coventry.ac.uk (The Mistress)
Subject: Re: WWII squad TO&E's
Organization: Coventry Poly/Uni(Take your pick)
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 12:12:40 GMT

In article <1992Oct2.160246.1@dhvx20.csudh.edu> rholmes@dhvx20.csudh.edu writes:
>I'll looking for sources for the make up of the squads of the combatants
>during WWII; the TO&E in other words. Any help in this matter would be
>greatly appricated.

This may not help but I have a copy of some good wargames rules for
the period, that may have the types of squads for the period but
I'm not  sure, mail me if you still want to know!!


-- 
|  The /\/\istress of /\/\anipulation   |      cbj005@cch.cov.ac.uk     |
|           Big Red Lobsters and Purple Hedgehogs unite!                |
|         "Shoot first, fingerprint the corpse later..."  2xs           |
|      Cannot recover from virus....rm: remove /freshers/all (y/n)      |
From: mst@vexpert.dbai.tuwien.ac.at (Markus Stumptner)
Newsgroups: alt.war
Subject: Re: Greatest Military Blunders of All Time
Date: 11 Oct 92 19:05:54 GMT
Organization: DB and ES Subdivision, TU Vienna

From article <KETIL.92Oct11024703@bark.ii.uib.no>, by ketil@bark.ii.uib.no (Ketil M. Malde):
> In article <1992Sep28.165259.17464@linus.mitre.org> bwise@hemlock.mitre.org (Barry Wise) writes:
>    The Arabs attacking Israel(anyone of numerous times)
> Yep.  Never underestimate an opponent. :-)

I would explicitly exclude the Yom Kippur War from that (at least from
the Egyptian POV - I'm not sure about the Syrians).  The envelopment
of the Third Army brought the Egyptians to the brink of defeat, but a
lost battle is not automatically a blunder.  On the whole, the war
shocked the Israelis enough to get them to enter the peace process and
give the Sinai back to Sadat.

>    Pearl Harbor
> Still, I don't see why on earth Japan should attack the US?

Then I would suggest you read your history books again.  There is no
question that those in power in Japan at the time had a very peculiar
mindset, but given their long-range goals and their past experience,
it obviously looked like a logical move to them, same as Hitler's
attack on Russia probably looked sane to him.
-- 
Markus Stumptner                                mst@vexpert.dbai.tuwien.ac.at
University of Technology Vienna                 vexpert!mst@relay.eu.net
Paniglg. 16, A-1040 Vienna, Austria             ...mcsun!vexpert!mst
Newsgroups: alt.war
From: COWAN@ssrl01.slac.stanford.edu (Paul L. Cowan)
Subject: Re: Greatest Military Blunders of All time (Civil War)
Organization: CALIFORNIANS ON THE ORIENT EXPRESS
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 14:03:06 GMT
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.24

In <1992Oct4.190738.5166@sequent.com> dickwin@sequent.com writes:

:  
:  I was glad to finally see some U.S.  Civil War examples and Burnside's
:  Fredericksburgh battle listed.  But an even dumber move, IMHO, was
:  Burnside's Crater battle around Petersburg in 1864.  Great idea/bad
:  excecution that cost thousands of casualties and wasted effort.
:  +Dick Winningstad                                                    +
:  +dickwin@sequent.com                                                 +

My vote for the biggest US Civil War military blunder would involve
the Peninsula Campaign.  Had McClellan succeeded in capturing Richmond
using the relatively bloodless tactics he preferred, the war could
conceivably ended without as many revolutionary political changes.  
I am not saying that I would regard this as a good thing.  Undoubtedly,
McClellan would have subsequently been elected President and slavery
in the South would have been secure for additional decades.  (A very
bad thing.)

One could argue that the blunderer was McClellan, himself, for not
attacking immediately with his superior force.  However, I prefer to 
assign the blame to the Navy.  Had Goldborough not refused to commit 
his gun boats to McClellan's support, as called for in the original plan, 
McClellan presumably would have attacked Macgruder at his flanks on the James
and York Rivers, despite the entrenchments and the faulty estimates
of Confederate strength.   The Navy's reluctance was caused by their
fear of the _Virginia_ (_Merrimac_), which was (IMHO) unfounded since
the _Monitor_ had already demonstrated that it could (at least)
neutralize the _Virginia_.  

The combination of gun boats and land forces worked well for the Union 
in Tennessee and along the Mississippi.  Had McClellan flanked
Macgruder, he should have been able to out race Johnston to Richmond.
While this may not have automatically ended the war, it undoubtedly
would have eliminated the danger of European intervention on behalf
of the CSA, and it would also have reduced the outcry of the radical
Northern politicians during the subsequent course of the war. 

In contrast, while Gettysburg and Fredericksburg were definately military 
blunders, there effects were only to shorten or prolong the (by then)
inevitable outcome that the South would be crushed and slavery ended 
by a bloody and long-remembered war.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
P. L. Cowan     Please send replies, comments etc. (no flames thank you) to 
COWAN@ANL.GOV  (I'm posting from my own account, but not the preferred one)
        "Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is a War Room!"
from _Dr._Strangelove_or:_How_I_Learned_to_Stop_Worrying_and_Love_the_Bomb_
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: jewell@mace.cc.purdue.edu (Larry Jewell)
Newsgroups: alt.war.civil.usa
Subject: Re: Artillery Question
Date: 7 Oct 92 14:27:50 GMT
Organization: Purdue University

In article <1992Oct6.205016.10369@news.iastate.edu> pholland@iastate.edu (Paul J Hollander) writes:
...
>Sounds as if a shrapnel shell would have some significant advantages over
>cannister and grape, such as longer range and for lobbing over the wall of
>a fortification.  And what would grape do to rifling?  Maybe chew it up 
>pretty fast?

  Very fast, with the possibility of ricochets *inside* the barrel which can
make the flight of the shot problematical.
  The worse case scenario I've seen was with the IJN at the time of the
battle of Leyte gulf when the BB's were loaded with "grape"type rounds for
their main batteries!

>Paul Hollander    pholland@iastate.edu
>Behold the tortoise: he makes no progress unless he sticks his neck out.

Larry J


-- 
#L.W. Jewell Moderator at the Veterans Information Site (veteran@cc.purdue.edu)#
#& WWII-L Listowner: "Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange,#
#sudden and wholly unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all   #
#phases of life." "Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41  #
From: kingsley@hpwrce.mayfield.hp.com (Kingsley Morse)
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 23:53:58 GMT
Subject: Please Help
Organization: HP Western Response Center
Newsgroups: alt.war.civil.usa

              Please answer these 9 questions and return.

1.) Do you think equal rights for men and women is generally a good idea?
Yes                  [ ]
Sometimes            [ ]
No                   [ ]
Haven't heard enough [ ]
Other                [ ]

2.) Are you pro choice?
Yes                  [ ]
Sometimes            [ ]
No                   [ ]
Haven't heard enough [ ]
Other                [ ]

3.) Are you in favor of adoption?
Yes                  [ ]
Sometimes            [ ]
No                   [ ]
Haven't heard enough [ ]
Other                [ ]

4.) Do you think men should be allowed to legally terminate their parental
rights and responsibilities before fetal viability?
Yes                  [ ]
Sometimes            [ ]
No                   [ ]
Haven't heard enough [ ]
Other                [ ]

5.) What sex are you?
Male               [ ]
Female             [ ]

6.) How old are you?
Under 18           [ ]
19 to 65           [ ]
Over 65            [ ]

7.) What religion are you?
Protestant         [ ]
Catholic           [ ]
Jewish             [ ]
Other              [ ]

8.) What political party are you affiliated with?
Democratic         [ ]
Republican         [ ]
Other              [ ]

9.) How many years of education have you completed?
Grade School       [ ]
High School        [ ]
College            [ ]
More               [ ]