From: Indonesia Publications/Task Force <apakabar@igc.org>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.portuguese
Date: 12 Aug 92 19:11 PDT
Subject: East Timor - Aug 12 - III
Nf-ID: #N:cdp:1591800222:000:22302
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!apakabar    Aug 12 19:11:00 1992


From: Indonesia Publications/Task Force <apakabar>
Subject: East Timor - Aug 12 - III

/* Written  7:03 pm  Aug 12, 1992 by apakabar in cdp:reg.indonesia */
/* ---------- "Belo 'Matra' Interview - 2" ---------- */


Remark: The untranslated part of the interview (noted by the
poster in the text below) dealing with leaders and businessmen
links seems a none too subtle attack on the greed of Soeharto and
his children's business empires.  Perhaps it could be included
as a response to this topic.  -- John (apakabar@igc.apc.org)


Forwarded from GreenNet reg.easttimor conference:
Topic 355'Matra' interviews Belo: Part II
gn:tapolreg.easttimor11:47 pm  Aug 12, 1992

Matra interview of Bishop Beli: Part II

Q:   Why is it that recently you have not said much?
A:   It's difficult. When I speak, my words are
misinterpreted. Newspapers and journals are not neutral when
they report what I say. They are biased. They don't consider
all sides of the question; only one side is highlighted. What
should I say to such journalists or press organs?

Q:   Do you think that the Indonesian press is biased?
A:   One would need to make a careful analysis to say that.
But it's my impression that the Indonesian press is being
manipulated. Ha... ha... ha!

Q:   Was this especially apparent in the reporting about the
12 November incident?
A:   Since long before that. Many people wrote very biased
things without seeking confirmation from me. I have often been
very disappointed.

Q:   The courts have started passing down verdicts on people
charged in connection with the 12 November incident. What, in
your opinion, was the cause of that incident?
A:   We need to examine a number factors in relation to 12
November. Many opinions need to be heard and scrutinised.
Those young people had long been complaining that there was no
work for them after leaving school. Some said that colonialism
is emerging in East Timor. All the teachers are from outside,
all the civil servants are from outside. Go into any
government office and all the employees are from outside. For
the simplest jobs in road-building, they bring in people from
outside. And these workers bring their children and their
brothers and sisters.

Q:   Do you think that it was lack of employment that
influenced the young people to take action?
A:   The lack of jobs is not the main thing. They see that
there are many vacancies and wonder why they are filled by
people from outside. Just go into any office and you will see
only one or two people from here. The vast majority are
outsiders. Take for instance the Department of Religious
Affairs, where there are only one or two Timorese. The
district religious offices are also all headed by people from
outside. People forget that the majority of people here are
Catholics. How is it possible for other religious people to
understand the affairs of the majority of people here in East
Timor?
     Then, it is said that lots of factories will be set up,
a pineapple cannery, a sugar-mill, and many others as well.
But none of this has happened. So people begin to ask why,
isn't there something wrong? People don't want to come here
because they won't be able to make profits from East Timor, or
perhaps because there are plenty of other possibilities.
People hope for large-scale investments. Java has become the
industrial centre. Are we, who are on the fringes, only to be
the garden? I know that Java is preferred by investors because
it has many facilities that don't exist elsewhere. But those
investors should be motivated by the spirit of nationalism,
meaning that they would consider investment in East Timor not
merely on the basis of business calculations, but take other
considerations into account and realise that places outside
Java also need attention.

Q:   Young people in Dili are seen as being bent on holding
demonstrations. Do you, in your day-to-day contact with the
community, have the same impression?
A:   It should be carefully investigated. We are often too
quick to level accusations. Sometimes, I see among the young
people others who are running the show, directors on top of
the directors. Another thing that needs to be examined is that
certain people know that a movement is in preparation but
allow the balloon to get bigger and bigger until it bursts. In
actual fact, the aspirations being articulated by the young
people here are part of the dynamic of all young people. It
happens not only here but also in Jakarta, in Bandung, in
Korea, in Palestine. Why is it that in other places, young
people can speak up but they must keep silent here?

Q:   Some people say that the young people who are accused of
holding demonstrations are the products of the education
system set up after integration.
A:   Not only that. What is more important is that they have
studied the 1945 Constitution the Preamble of which states
that all forms of colonialism must cease everywhere in the
world. They have learnt from that. They see the reality in
their everyday lives, they see the leaders of society, the
people in charge here.

Q:   From what you know, are there problems with education
here in East Timor?
A:   The most striking progress here has indeed been made in
the field of education. There are many schools, even down to
the villages. But this is where I hear the most complaints.
The progress has only been in quantity, not in the quality of
education. I get complaints about teachers who don't turn up,
teachers going to meetings, teachers going on tour to all
kinds of places in connection with duties that have nothing to
do with their pupils. I have the impression that it's the kids
who are teaching the teachers. Many people ask why this is
allowed to happen. These days in East Timor, there is no
national discipline in the education sector.

Q:   We hear of many teachers being beaten by their pupils.
Why is that?
A:   There are many reasons. There are many repressed feelings
among the younger generation. They complain that more and more
teachers are being brought in from outside - outsiders. They
say that the teachers are often dishonest.
     Since integration, it has become the custom for all
pupils to go up to the next class every year, regardless of
whether they are clever or dunces. Everyone passes. Is that
honest? The result is, that if, suddenly, some pupils don't go
up, they blame the teacher. So the pupils beat the teachers
because they think that everyone should pass and go up. I
blame the teachers for this, or perhaps the fault lies with
the instructions they get from above, the wrong approach.
Maybe, they want to win sympathy but it boomerangs. To say
nothing of 'envelopes', bribes; we are seeing more and more of
such things. This is why I often say that there is no
education in the field of education.

Q:   If the pupils misbehave, is it all their fault?
A:   Oh, the pupils also make mistakes, but I think that most
of the blame lies with those who are supposed to be doing the
educating. The teachers and others are turning the schools and
pupils into a political arena. They come under the influence
of a variety of interests. So, the young people split up into
groups. Some are with the anti-integration groups, others with
the pro-integrationists. This is utilised for purposes which
are not understood by the school-children, to spy on suspects.

Q:   Speaking about what prompted the 12 November incident,
you said just now that there were many factors. Can you
mention some of the other factors?
A:   Their most fundamental complaint is that the question of
integration has not yet been resolved in a peaceful and
democratic way. Integration is already a fact but it must be
for us to accept it. It is for us to decide, for us to accept
or reject integration. Integration is not something that can
be forced. If integration is a fact, we should be treated
properly, like citizens in other parts of Indonesia. The young
people here complain, saying it's as if East Timor is a region
won in battle, a military conquest, not a region integrated in
an acceptable way by the motherland. These are the complaints
that I hear.

Q:   What about Fretilin?
A:   Yes, Fretilin and Xanana Gusmao (Xanana Gusmao, who is
known as the president of Fretilin [sic] Ed) still exert some
influence. People who still want to follow Xanana believe that
the fire of independence should not be extinguished. But apart
from this, one should also take account of the fact that ABRI
was unable to control itself during that incident. Another
important factor is that many civilians, many East Timorese
who were in the lead, were from the intel, spying on their
fellow East Timorese. During August, September and October, up
to the time of the 12 November outburst, many people were
divided into two groups. One was the group of intel agents,
while the other consisted of those who were being reported by
these agents.

Q:   Which group were you in?
A:   I was among those being reported... ha... ha... ha! There
were all kinds of reports. That I had held illegal meetings in
my home, that I had hidden weapons, that I had sent letters
abroad. Every move I made was monitored, my sermons were
taped, my letters were censored.

Q:   Is there any truth in reports that your home was used to
hide weapons and as a refuge for demonstrators?
A:   Loving care is part of the work of priests and bishops.
Our work has nothing to do with weapons. If someone comes and
asks for protection, we have to respond, whatever their
politics. They are human beings, creatures of God.

Q:   Does the fact that your personal letters have been
disseminated mean that there are intel agents inside the
church or in your own household?
A:   Yes, it does. I know that. After meetings to discuss
church affairs, there are often people who report. I know
there are people who are under instructions or being paid to
listen to everything I say, follow all my statements, get hold
of my letters. Take for instance the letter (of 6 February
1989) to the UN Secretary-General about the need to hold a
referendum. The day after it was sent, the general public knew
all about it. Very strange. They are right inside my circle.
The letter had been taken from a place which only people close
to me know anything about. We shouldn't be surprised at such
things; anything can happen here. Once, in a sermon, I got
rather angry and insinuated: "Those of you who drink tea from
Indonesia or who eat white rice from Indonesia listen
carefully."

Q:   Does this kind of thing worry you?
A:   As far as that letter was concerned, I felt worried but
also not worried. What worried me was that many people did not
like what I did. But in the end, I thought, OK, and I calmed
down. If the letter was now in the public domain, there was
nothing I could do about it. I hoped that it could be
discussed publicly in order to find a peaceful and just
solution for East Timor. I am not worried about the intel
agents. I know the ones who follow me, who are watching me.
When I give lectures or sermons, I know the people who are
sitting in front of me. I speak to everyone. Maybe they will
repent.

Q:   Do you think that what they are doing is wrong?
A:   I don't think it's wrong, but it is not pleasant, not the
decent thing to do. I don't like it. And it makes me feel that
this is a police state. Everything I do, all my activities,
every word, are followed and monitored. It shouldn't be like
this. With such things happening, I feel that I am living in
a police state. From what I have learnt about Pancasila, I
tend to think that this is not the Indonesia that aspires to
Pancasila. But this is all happening right here in East Timor.

Q:   During one court hearing, you were mentioned as the
conduit for sending state documents to Ramos-Horta. Did that
actually happen?
A:   I wrote about that to the Attorney-General and the
regional chief of police. I explained that I did not know the
witness who mentioned my name in the court. That person
probably knew me or had met me because I meet many people in
the congregation. But I did not personally know the person who
was being charged or the witnesses. Many people come to my
home but no-one has ever come bringing secret state documents
to be sent abroad. That's the first point. The second point is
that I don't know Ramos-Horta's address and I have never had
any dealings with him.  When he was studying in Dili, I was
abroad. I don't know what he is up to now. What I do know is
that his father was a district chief in Portuguese times.

Q:   Supposing someone came and gave you secret state
documents....
A:   I would certainly hand them back (Mgr Belo quickly
interrupted). As the leader of an important institution, why
should I get involved in such things? What for? I think it's
quite unnecessary. Perhaps I should say too that after my name
was mentioned in court, the wife of that person came to my
home one evening. She asked for forgiveness for her husband
who had mentioned my name in court. I told her, never mind.
For me, the matter is closed. What is important for me is that
such a thing should not happen again.
     What I do regret it that there are attempts to corner me
and blame me. And the press went ahead and reported the news.
This is perhaps what is called trial by the press. This is
what I dislike. Even though I had written to the Attorney-
General, the Indonesian press all over the country reported
that I was involved. This is the extraordinary thing about the
Indonesian press. I was being punished without anyone
listening to what I, the person in question, had to say. That
news was very biased indeed.

Q:   Where does the diocese get its funds from?
A:   We live primarily from funds from the congregation. If
they live in impoverished circumstances, we can't do better
than that. We also get funds from the government, 400 to 500
million rupiahs a year. This comes from the Department of
Religious Affairs and goes direct to the parishes throughout
East Timor to build or repair churches and chapels. We also
get small amounts from the Vatican, primarily for seminars and
religious teachers. The amount depends or our requests and the
ability of the Vatican. We plan to build a new office at the
side of the cathedral, but we don't yet have enough money.

Q:   Next year, the MPR (People's Consultative Assembly) will
meet. Do you have any special hopes?
A:   Sometimes I ask myself whether this is a republic or a
monarchy. Isn't there anyone else in Indonesia who can come
forward as a new leader. Maybe there is. But perhaps the
system is incapable of producing a new leader. Or it may be
that many people have resigned themselves to things as they
are or don't want to put themselves forward.

Q:   And so?
A:   We in East Timor are a little influenced by western
culture. For instance, if a village head has served for four
years, it's time for someone new to take over. Replacing
people is a normal process.

Q:   What kind of democracy do you think we should have?
A:   For me, democracy should be more active. I constantly
hear people talking about Pancasila democracy. I think that
Pancasila democracy should also be active. Bring it into line
with the demands of development and progress for the nation.
When I heard that a Forum Demokrasi had been set up and what
it planned to do, I was delighted.

Q:   If invited, would you join the FD?
A:   If I'm allowed to, I'd like to join. But why haven't we
heard anything recently about its activities. Is it dead? The
last I heard was that it wanted to hold a halal bihalal
[gathering to mark the end of Ramadhan] but this was banned.
Ha... ha... ha!

Q:   To what extent do you think we can fight for a more open
democracy?
A:   I think there should be confidence in the nation's
ability to become mature. For this we need to have a climate
in which differences of opinion are valued. If we can't have
this, the nation will go on being an infant. When shall we
grow up? It's time the organs of social control were given
greater freedom of action. There should also be more freedom
of assembly. For instance, if the three political parties are
incapable of taking on board people's aspirations, maybe
there's need for an alternative. But, please excuse me, I
don't want to be a teacher of democracy.

Q:   What in your view should be expected of a leader?
A:   A leader should set the example for the nation and know
how to lead the nation, give wise and just leadership for all
groups and all individuals, and be capable of encouraging all
the vitality in society.

[Two questions and answers about leadership problems and the
danger of close liaisons between leaders and business in
various countries are omitted.]

Q:   Here in East Timor, there is said to be a monopoly
controlling the coffee trade.
A:   I hope this will end soon. Maybe it has already ended. It
is very damaging for the people. People are no longer
interested in tending their coffee gardens. They are only
allowed to sell to one businessman who gives them a very low
price, below the market price.
     I'm not a coffee grower but I've suffered from the
situation personally. Once when I was returning from Ermera,
the local congregation gave me a gift which they put in my
car. On my way back to Dili, I was stopped by soldiers who
said that the bishop wasn't allowed to transport coffee, even
if it was a gift. Ha... ha... ha! They said there were
instructions from above. So they took my gift of coffee. The
officer said the coffee would be taken to the district
military command for inspection. The next day, I asked the
governor whether there was a ban on individuals carrying
coffee even when the quantity was small. He was astonished. He
told me not to bother. Ha... ha... ha! It was only a few dozen
kilos of coffee. It's such treatment that shows how
constricted we are. I heard that even as recently as last
year, people's coffee was being taken. Yet, many East Timorese
depend on coffee for their livelihood.

Q:   What hopes do you have of the central government?
A:   It should give proper attention to East Timor. If
possible give it broader autonomy or special status. We have
a different history, a different culture. It is the right of
the President to decide. There are many aspects that need to
be studied for special autonomy. I don't know whether it
should be the same as in Yogya or Aceh. What's important is
that the governance and culture of East Timor should be given
proper attention. And there should be changes in security
policy. I know that we could be submerge if we were to go it
alone. We don't have the skilled personnel, there isn't enough
infrastructure. That's why we are part of Indonesia. But by
choosing to join, it doesn't mean that the cultural
differences and the different background should be ignored.

Q:   Who selects and looks after your clothes?
A:   I go to the shop or the tailor myself and wear ordinary
clothes but even so, many people surround me and want to kiss
my hand. Even though here in front of my home there is a
beautiful beach, I've only been there once. Many people came
and asked me, 'Why are you going to the beach?' Strange, isn't
it, yet all I want is to be like other people. People here
can't understand that a bishop is not an angel, he's just a
normal human being like everyone else, who wants to do sports
and to have some recreation. They want the bishop to live a
life apart, not to mingle with people at the grass-roots or
play football, not to go on pleasure trips. I am expected to
wear my robe whenever I go out. But I personally don't want to
be hidebound all the time by these formalities. I am a member
of the Salesian Order which was set up by Dom Bosco who worked
with the youth. I joined the Salesians precisely because I
want to live among the people. For a Salesian to be moved to
Dili and become the bishop was like going to prison. Ha...
ha... ha! I had to stop doing sports, to stop mixing with
young people. But I must turn this prison into something
worthwhile.

Q:   Do you balance this with music?
A:   Yes, I like music very much. Indonesian kroncong,
Indonesian or western pop. Also classical music and rock.
Ha... ha... ha! Beatles and Beethoven, especially his Ninth
Symphony. I always try to buy new cassettes. Whenever I go to
Jakarta, I always bring home one or two cassettes.

Q:   What do you feel when you listen to Beethoven's Ninth?
A:   The greatness of God. I like listening to it when I work.
I always play music when I am working. Classics when I am
reading. Rock when I am writing. I feel more productive when
I am listening to something. Does this sound strange for a
bishop? Ha... ha... ha!

Q:   Do you often watch football on television?
A:   I like football. Sometimes I wake up at 2 in the morning
to watch a football match in Europe. Koeman and Gullit are
some that I like to watch. I don't like boxing. This is a
punishing sport. The body, the face is punched. I regard sport
as something to make us more humane, sportive, to appreciate
one's rival. Sport teaches us to compete peacefully, in a
state of equality and balance. I much prefer sports to
international meetings or negotiations. Ha... ha... ha!

Q:   Do you have any time to read?
A:   Yes. I try to find time every day to read. I read books
about theology and sometimes about history. At present I am
reading a book by a Spanish priest giving an assessment of
Christ in the present day.

Q:   What are your plans when you stop being the Bishop of
Dili?
A:   I want to go abroad to serve other nations, anywhere
where I may be needed. Perhaps to China, Africa or Latin
America. I want to contribute part of my life to other
nations.

Q:   Would that be after conditions for the East Timorese
people are better?
A:   After I am no longer required by the Holy Father to serve
here. I have long wanted to become a missionary with another
nation. That's if I am given the opportunity and long life by
God.

Q:   Is that because you feel you don't fit in here?
A:   Up to now I have fitted in. But since I was a small boy,
I have wanted to be a priest overseas, in China. I want to
follow in the footsteps of Saint Fransiskus Xaverius, the
Jesuit who went to China. His struggle has greatly impressed
me. It was the story of this saint that made me decide to
become a priest.