HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jrussell@unlinfo.unl.edu (john russell)
Subject: Re: Bible versions
Organization: University of Nebraska - Lincoln
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 13:34:05 GMT

JEK@NIHCU.BITNET writes:

>Suppose you have a document originally written in Hebrew by one
>author, then translated from Hebrew to Greek by a second, then
>translated from Greek to Latin by a third, from Latin to French by a
>fourth, from French to English by a fifth. It would be reasonable to
>doubt the accuracy of the Englsh version, and the more translations
>there were in the line, the less reliable the finished product. This
>is analagous to a number of stnadard electrical resistances arranged
>in series. The more of them there are, the less electricity gets
>through.
>     But suppose instead that you have a document originally written
>in Hebrew, with translations made around 200 BC into Greek, other
>translations made from the Hebrew into Latin around 380 AD, others
>made from the Hebrew into Aramaic around 90 AD. Suppose that these
>different translations have been preserved by separate communities,
>so that an error in copying one version is unlikely to affect
>transmission of another version.  Then, when, for example, the
>Hebrew and the Greek agree on a verse, it is a safe assumption that
>the verse is found in that form as far back as the date of the
>translation from Greek to Latin. This is analagous to a number of
>electrical resistance arranged in parallel. The more resistors there
>are, the more electrricity gets through.

> Yours,
> James Kiefer

Fair enough. :-)

jr

Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Delivery-Notice:  SMTP MAIL FROM does not correspond to sender.
X-Vmsmail-To: SMTP%"CHRISTIA@ASUVM.INRE.ASU.EDU"
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Tue, 1 Sep 1992 13:05:00 -0700
From:         MARK DRAKE <DRAKE@ASUCHM.LA.ASU.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Their Lady of Cold Springs
X-To:         CHRISTIA@ASUVM.INRE.ASU.EDU

>His intent is not to ridiclue.

>Jesse

I accept that his intent was not to ridicule.  However, since _ many _ people
percieve what he wrote to be ridicule, that means there is still a problem.

I think that perhaps a lot of people are having their intents misunderstood
lately here on christia.  We should all be more carefull in how we say what we
want to say in an effort to improve communication and to help improve the
"tone" on christia.

Mark
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Delivery-Notice:  SMTP MAIL FROM does not correspond to sender.
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Thu, 3 Sep 1992 16:11:50 EDT
From:         Lon Mendelsohn <LMENDELS@CMS.CC.WAYNE.EDU>
Subject:      Re: 2 Peter 3

Jesse,

You have stated very clearly that you believe the Jesus' prophecies in
Matthew 24 to have been fulfilled in 70 AD.  I have pointed out to you
specific conditions and events which Jesus described, and I have asked
you to show me how those conditions were met in 70 AD and how those
events happened.  So far, all you have told me is _that_ they happened,
not how they happened.  Even taking into account that Jesus was speaking
to a limited audience, He gave them very precise description of _future_
events.  Stop dodging the question and give me some answers, please!

Shalom,

Lon Mendelsohn
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Tue, 1 Sep 1992 12:35:15 CDT
From:         Jesse Irwin Carnes <NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Has Jesus Returned???

Dear All ;
Before I talk about Matt 24-25 to some degree, let me say that this
Parousia or appearing is considered to be a "Day of the Lord", even as
you see that expression used in Hebrews "... all the more as you see the
Day approaching."
There were, in fact, SEVERAL Days of the Lord within Scripture parimeters.
The judgement of Adam in the Garden with the Lord approaching him for a
time of judgement was such a Day.
The Flood in Noah's day was another coming of the Lord in wrath.
586/587 B.C. was another Day of the Lord with the Babylonian captivity of
the Southern Kingdom.

Now, many people consider a Parousia (Advent) to be just a mere appearence,
such as the First Advent in ca. 6 B.C.of Jesus Christ.
However, a Day of the Lord often involved good tidings for God's elect and
judgement for the non-elect as in the 586 B.C. case.

Further, let me say that when dealing with exegesis of Scripture or anything
for that matter, CONTEXT determines the meaning of words and not words
determining context.  That is another ground rule of hermeneutics.
Also, we must ... must ... MUST attempt to avoid the idea of making Scripture
"speak" to US within its historical context.
What I mean is that when, say, Jesus is telling Lazarus to come forth from the
dead, Christ is ACTUALLY addressing us in some mystical sort of sense.
Now, we CAN apply Scripture unto edification.  However, application is
different from interpretation.  We must not confuse the two.

I will continue on another entry today.




Jesse Carnes
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Delivery-Notice:  SMTP MAIL FROM does not correspond to sender.
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL0]
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Tue, 1 Sep 1992 16:18:16 EST
From:         Ian Williams <iwilliam@AU.ORACLE.COM>
Subject:      Re: Dangerous Place!!!
X-To:         CHRISTIA@ASUVM.INRE.ASU.EDU
              Tennant" at Aug 27, 92 12:19 pm

>
>Ian,
>
>I asked this question one time but nobody responded or I missed it somehow.
>
>Isn't there a phrophesy about children disappearing in the last days?
>

Bernie,

I am not ignoring you, I have been off the air for a few days..

I am not aware of this prophesy.. I am aware of one that says that in the
last days old men would dream dreams and young men see visions or something
like that!..

If you get a hold of the one you mean then by all  means post it..

What ever the prophesy though, our children  are being slaughtered at
a frightening rate..


---------------------+-------------+-----------------------------------------
Ian Williams         |    _--_|\   |      Internet: iwilliam@au.oracle.com
Oracle Systems       |   /      \  |	  Phone	  : +61 8 239 3900
Adelaide, Australia  |   \_.--*_/  |
                     |         v   |
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
X-Envelope-to: CHRISTIA@ASUACAD.BITNET
X-VMS-To: IN%"CHRISTIA@ASUACAD.BITNET"
X-VMS-Cc: CORJB
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Mon, 31 Aug 1992 12:25:20 -0500
From:         Jason Briggs Cormier <CORJB@RHODES.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Prayer

>Ok, Let's vote for our first prayer topic. I can remember theese three:
>
>1.- Abortionists.
>2.- Bosnia.
>3.- Somalia.
>
>Please send your votes or new topics to:

I don't mean to knock anyone's ideas, but reading this sounds pretty,
well, wacko.  It gives the impression that one must limit what one
prays for or something.  I understand all of what led up to this, but
just wanted to point out how odd this posting looked.

I for one, prefer to just pray for whatever the Spirit leads me to
pray.

Jason
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-VMS-To: IN%"CHRISTIA%ASUACAD.BITNET@ricevm1.rice.edu"
X-VMS-Cc: B882SA
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Thu, 27 Aug 1992 09:30:00 CDT
From:         Sieg A U R I C H <B882SA@UTARLG.UTA.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Concerned Women for America
X-To:         CHRISTIA%ASUACAD.BITNET@ricevm1.rice.edu

Renee,
	I just saw a copy of the "1992 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE ISSUES
SURVEY" in our office. It is put out by Concerned Women for America. The
address and phone given on the back is:

	Concerned Women for America
	370 L'Enfant Promenade, SW
		Suite 800
	Washington, D.C.  20024
	(202) 488-7000

		><> In & For HIS Service, <><
			Sieg :{>
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Thu, 3 Sep 1992 16:51:10 EDT
From:         Bernice Tennant <U1A9A@WVNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Homosexuality
              Z_STAFF_CL@SOUTHAMPTON-INSTITUTE.AC.UK

Carol Long,

Although Alcoholism and Homosexuality are different, it was my intent to
claim that God can turn either one around.  I did not mean to say that they
were the same as much as to say they are both difficult to rebuke and sinful.
(I admit that we disagree on this or at least some of us.) With God there is
no sin we cannot repent of.   He can take both of the affore mentioned
groups and cause them to be changed into what God intended them to be.
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Thu, 27 Aug 1992 15:04:37 EDT
From:         Bernice Tennant <U1A9A@WVNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Mary and sinlessness

Marty,

      Please tell us why you are sceptical of visions of Jesus and Mary.

                               Your friend in CHrist, Bernice
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
X-Orig-To: CHRISTIA@ASUACAD.BITNET
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Wed, 2 Sep 1992 15:40:06 CDT
Comments:     Answering received message
From:         THERESA BLACKWELL <TBLACKWL@USMCP6.BITNET>
Subject:      ... once again...

  Jesse...
 I'm not arguin' ok?
 Here's my point... :)
 If the desciples could have heard and understood, then
 why can't we make the same application to our own lives?
 Sometimes I think that if I had lived a life simililar
 (oops...) to that of St. Paul, I'd be a lot better off!
 I mean, ya don't have to take me literally... it was just
 that IMHO, that's what Jesus meant when he told his followers
 that...
 I mean, hey... Shouldn't we as Christian people try to
 do what he instructed THEM to do....
 Go back and re-read Matt. 28:19-20....
 God Bless...
 Theresa / "G"

 * <TBLACKWL@USMCP6.BITNET>
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Tue, 25 Aug 1992 13:51:33 EDT
From:         Bernice Tennant <U1A9A@WVNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Political speeches

Kerry,

      I don't know about your facts.... but I sure agree with your opinions.
The power of the media is frightening.  Every night we turn on the tubes and
fill up.  Have you ever repeated a news    story to someone and found out the
next day that you had it wrong because the story was presented in a certain
way?
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Delivery-Notice:  SMTP MAIL FROM does not correspond to sender.
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL0]
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Sun, 23 Aug 1992 13:33:31 EST
From:         Ian Williams <iwilliam@AU.ORACLE.COM>
Subject:      Re: Dear Rome : prove it
X-To:         CHRISTIA@ASUVM.INRE.ASU.EDU
              Aug 22, 92 4:37 pm

>>
>> Marys virginity is not in scripture, but it doesnt need to be because they
>> believe men as  well asGod, when when men contradict the word of God...
>>
>>
>Ian, I don't want to put words in your mouth but don't you mean Mary's
>PERPETUAL virginity?  The virginity of Mary at the birth of Jesus
>is a very important protestant doctrine as well.  It may seem like nit
>picking but I'm sure there are a few people on the list who might
>be confused.  Thanks for your input.
>
>Joe Moore

Joe, you are correct, I meant virginity after the birth of Jesus.. (and no
I am not saying that birth takes away virginity!! :-)
)



---------------------+-------------+-----------------------------------------
Ian Williams         |    _--_|\   |      Internet: iwilliam@au.oracle.com
Oracle Systems       |   /      \  |	  Phone	  : +61 8 239 3900
Adelaide, Australia  |   \_.--*_/  |
                     |         v   |
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Wed, 2 Sep 1992 12:55:16 CDT
From:         Yvette Traylor <YST1@DCCCDBIT.BITNET>
Subject:      Festival of Booths

Can anyone give me some details about the Festival of Booths that is
written about in the Old Testement? or a book about them...  Thanks in
advance..

   Yvette Traylor     "We are His people and the sheep of his pasture."
   Dallas County Community College District             Psalm 100:3
   Computer Programmer/Analyst  in  Dallas - Texas
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Charset: ASCII
X-Char-Esc: 29
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Mon, 31 Aug 1992 08:54:17 +0200
From:         Claus Tondering <ct@DDE.DK>
Subject:      Re: Jesus and Gorbachev

Kerry Stephenson writes:

>Christianity Today reports that the Jerusalem Post reported that,
>when Gorbachev toured Galilee, he made an unscripted speech, in
>which he declared himself to be "a lifelong socialist, following
>in the footsteps of Jesus, the first socialist."  He also said that peace
>in the middle east could only come if it was "founded on the
>spirit of Jesus."  The Post said that the most striking aspect of
>the speech was that "he clearly meant every word of it."

>Curiouser and curiouser.

Every once in a while an article pops up in a Christian magazine or
newspaper about Gorbachev's alleged religious beliefs.

Well, some of you may recall that immediately after the failed coup
last year, Gorbachev and Yeltsin were interviewed on American television.
They were both asked about their religious views, and Gorbachev's
simple answer was: "I'm an atheist."

(Of course his point of view may have changed since then. That certainly
would be a reason to rejoice.)

Yours in Christ,

Claus Tondering
Dansk Data Elektronik A/S, Herlev, Denmark
E-mail: ct@dde.dk
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Sun, 23 Aug 1992 00:29:07 EST
From:         Kerry Stephenson <KSTE@PURCCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Religion in Schools
              23 Aug 1992 01:06:15 EDT from <AMZIMM01@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU>

Angela:

Could you explain what you mean by "religious rights" and how hearing
Scripture infringes upon those rights?

Thanks.


Love INC,
         ---Kerry
From: psyrobtw@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (Robert Weiss)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: Feelings! [was: confirmation v. Baptism in H.S.]
Date: 1 Sep 92 01:42:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41


	James summarizes my response a little differently than I 
thought that I communicated.
	
	I'm sorry for the mis-communication, and I will try again.

	When I was baptized in the Holy Spirit, there were certain 
emotional feelings. But the event was not an emotional experience 
alone. I don't believe that I called it so, but anyways...

	I remember when I was jumped and my bike was stolen. I was hit 
over the head, and I was relieved of my bike. I did have some emotional 
responses to that... I was angry, I felt powerless, etc.; but even 
though there were some emotional tendrils in the experience, there were 
also some very real physical elements that caused the emotional 
elements.

	When I received the Holy Spirit, there were certain elements
that caused emotional experiences, although the gift was not simply an 
emotional experience in itself.

	In comparing this to the confirmation I received, I saw a 
difference in what one sacrament was supposed to be; and in what the 
real item was. In looking back, I think that I was expecting something 
that couldn't happen. I was expecting to receive the Holy Spirit 
before I was even saved, and I was expecting the bishop to bestow the 
Holy Spirit on me. And so my expectations were false on two grounds --
since you cannot put new wine into old wineskins, and it is Jesus that 
baptizes one in the Holy Spirit.




 en agape,
 Bob 
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Delivery-Notice:  SMTP MAIL FROM does not correspond to sender.
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Wed, 2 Sep 1992 11:29:31 CDT
Reply-To:     bradk%isdgsm@rtsg.mot.com
From:         Brad Kaiser <bradk%isdgsm@RTSG.MOT.COM>
Subject:      Are R.C. saints asleep?
X-To:         CHRISTIA%ASUVM.INRE.ASU.EDU@motgate.mot.com
              1 Sep 1992 22:29:14 EST <9209020334.AA26907@motgate.mot.com>

(This is a response to a posting of Kerry's whose title is that of a
post by Tom Brewer yesterday.  I refuse to post anything with a title
referring to "Their Lady", as I regard such titles as blasphemous
offenses against a person whose memory I hold sacred.)


Kerry writes:

>> 1 Thess. 4 talks about the dead in Christ and refers to them as being
>> asleep.  It appears that they do not stop being asleep until Christ
>> returns.

The term "fallen asleep" is a euphemism for bodily death.  Jesus used
the term in Jn 11:11-13 to describe Lazarus.  The reason that one
"wakes" when Christ returns is that that is when bodily resurrection
takes place, which obviously negates the visible effect of bodily
death, and then some!

However, it should not be interpreted to mean that the souls of
Christians are unconscious or unable to function until the
resurrection.  Rev 6:9-11 speaks of the souls of the martyrs asking
the Lord how long they have to wait for the final judgement.  Rev 4:8,
8:3-4 and other verses speak of the prayers of the holy ones (the
Latin word for "holy one" is the origin of the English word saint)
rising before God's throne.

>> If they are asleep, how can we communicate with them, and why should
>> we expect them to communicate with us?

A counter-question: if Christ is the vine, and His faithful the
branches, why should mere bodily death separate one part of the vine
from another?  "O death, where is thy sting?  O grave, where is thy
victory?"

In Christ,

Brad Kaiser
(bradk%isdgsm@rtsg.mot.com)

  "Hatred destroys.  Only love creates."
            -- St. Maximilian Kolbe, shortly before his arrest and
               martyrdom at the hands of the Nazis.
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Fri, 28 Aug 1992 23:58:04 EST
From:         Kerry Stephenson <KSTE@PURCCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: biblical interpretations on homosexuality

Jason:

If you are a Christian, you must have at least *one* absolute.
(I think we can all guess Who it is :-) )

Love INC,
         --Kerry
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Delivery-Notice:  SMTP MAIL FROM does not correspond to sender.
X-Vmsmail-To: CHRISTIA
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Tue, 1 Sep 1992 12:09:51 -0700
From:         MARK DRAKE <DRAKE@ASUCHM.LA.ASU.EDU>
Subject:      post cannon revelation
X-To:         christia@asuvm.inre.asu.edu

	Jesse,

After finishing you posts on Jesus' coming, could you explain your biblical
basis for believing that there is no post cannon revelation?
	I assume that you believe there is only illumination of scripture?

Mark
drake@asuchm.la.asu.edu
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
From: FACN34B@SAUPM00.BITNET (zane of dhahran)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Church
Date: 27 Aug 92 08:55:54 GMT
Organization: King Fahd University of Petroleum and Minerals, S.A.
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Acknowledge-To: <FACN34B@SAUPM00.BITNET>

Robert,

    Certainly the RCC can claim a direct line back to the early Church.
So can about everybody else.
    Maybe "denomination" is more of an attitude than anything else.
    I am all for organism.  I wanna be the heart, though some say I am
the ass.  But even if that's true, we'd be a pretty wierd body without one.
    If I believed the propoganda I'd run out and join an Orthodox organization.
I think all true Christians belong to the early Church right now.  No matter
where they are.  And they belong to us.  And we all belong to Christ.
    I think it is written somewhere that the issue before the throne was
whether Christ knew us or not.  I'm orthodox, I believe Christ is God.  He
knows everybody...but he wants to know us like a Man knows His wife.  That
is not organization, that is organism.  It is a spiritual thing.  The flesh
counts for nothing.  Everything that can't walk through walls is going to
get stuck behind in the tomb when the body rises.  Jesus didn't take the
grave clothes with Him.  They were of the old order.  He rose up in a living
body.
                                          Peace, zane.
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Fri, 28 Aug 1992 14:19:03 EDT
From:         Bernice Tennant <U1A9A@WVNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: somalia

Looks  like a good idea.  Let us pray.
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
From: kilroy@gboro.glassboro.edu (Dr Nancy's Sweetie)
Subject: Re: Jehovah's Witnessess & Blood
Organization: (Glassboro State|Rowan) College [of New Jersey]
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 16:48:03 GMT


Doug Works quotes some written source, which says this about Jehovah's
Witnesses:

> o They reject blood transfusions.
>     o  They base this belief on their interpretation of Genesis 9:4 and
>        similar O.T. passages. 

This is not correct.

The Jehovah's Witnesses teach that gentile Christians are not under the Old
Testament Laws given to the Jews; the OT prohibitions on blood are not the
reason they refuse transfusions.

They refuse blood transfustions based on their interpretation of the letter
from the council at Jerusalem, recorded in the Bible at Acts 15:23-29.  In
particular, the letter reads "you are to abstain from [...] blood."

They believe that because nothing was said about "eating blood" or "meat
with blood", this passage applies to ALL blood, no matter how it is taken into
the body.  Ergo, they believe that transfusions violate the letter in Acts.

I happen to think the JWs are in Outer Space, but I also think that if someone
is going to criticise a religious group he should at least make certain that
he knows what they think and why they think it.  The author of whatever it is
that Mr Works is quoting from has obviously failed to do his homework.

 --

For details on what JWs believe about blood, see the discussion on pages 344-6
of the JW publication _Insight On The Scriptures_, vol 1.  (Available for free
from your local JWs.)

For details on criticising positions that your opponents do not hold, see
the discussion of `straw man' on pages 51-6 of Howard Kahane's _Logic and
Contemporary Rhetoric_.

For a Christian-specific discussion of faulty criticisms, see _Witch Hunt_, by
Bob and Gretchen Passantino.

(Both are listed in _Books In Print_, order them at your favorite bookstore.
 Kerry Stephenson's bookstore probably has the latter in stock, and can ship
 it to those who are interested.  (And she can tell Dan Graham whether any
 are on tape.))


Darren F Provine / kilroy@gboro.glassboro.edu
"We cannot honestly and fairly claim to represent the God of truth -- the God
 whom we claim to serve -- by accusing anyone unfairly."
                                -- Bob & Gretchen Passantino (from their book)
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Thu, 27 Aug 1992 11:59:23 CST
From:         A16905@ITESO.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Catholicism

WKJ

That's just right !

A kingdom of Priests of the Most High God !

Shalom,
Memo.
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
From: jrussell@unlinfo.unl.edu (john russell)
Subject: Pat Robertson and feminism
Organization: University of Nebraska - Lincoln
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 14:15:30 GMT

Just thought you'd like to know what Pat R. is up to:

Taken from "The Globe And Mail" newspaper, Toronto, Wednesday, August 26, 1992

Page A14

SOCIAL STUDIES
  - A daily miscellany of information by Michael Kesterton

...WORD WATCH
  ...Feminism: is described in a fund-raising letter by U.S. evangelist
               Pat Robertson as "a socialist, anti-family political movement
               that encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their
               children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and
               become lesbians."
---

Must be quite some bill.

jr

This post originally appeared on "gaynet," but I thought it had
relevance here. Thanks to Ron B.

Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU