HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mrc@Ikkoku-Kan.Panda.COM (Mark Crispin)
Newsgroups: pnw.general
Subject: Seattle City Light vs. Puget Power
Date: 10 Jan 93 09:02:25 GMT
Article-I.D.: Ikkoku-K.MS-C.726714145.1103527590.mrc
Organization: University of Washington
NNTP-Posting-Host: ikkoku-kan.panda.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Phil Hughes claims that Seattle City Light's lower rates than Puget Power
somehow ``proves'' that government can do business better than private
industry.

It does no such thing.

It proves that providing utility service to an almost entirely urban or
suburban customer base is considerably cheaper than providing utility service
to a customer base that includes super-remote rural areas -- especially when,
by government regulation, the cost of providing service to the expensive areas
is spread out over the entire customer base so that everyone pays the same low
rate.

If Puget Power were allowed to charge customers what it really cost to provide
them with service, people in places like Bremerton would see a bit cut in
their rates, people in places like Bainbridge Island would see a moderate cut
in their rates, and people in the boonies would see such a massive increase in
rates that they'd no longer be able to afford electricity.

If Seattle City Light were to take over Puget Power, Seattle customers would
see an increase in rates at least to present Puget Power levels.

What is surprising is not that Puget Power is more expensive than Seattle City
Light, but that it is not *much* more expensive.  With the remote areas served
by Puget Power, it's a miracle they can keep it down to 6 cents/KWH.

One might want to investigate how long-distance calling subsidized local
calling during the Bell System years, and why our local bills soared
afterwards.
From: bradley@mdd.comm.mot.com (Michael Bradley)
Newsgroups: pnw.general
Subject: Re: More about Wes
Date: 7 Jan 93 19:32:39 GMT
Article-I.D.: mdd.1993Jan7.193239.17104
Distribution: pnw
Organization: Motorola, Mobile Data Division - Seattle, WA

In article <4152@master.CNA.TEK.COM> mikeq@freddy.CNA.TEK.COM writes:
>According to the autopsy report, Dodd died of strangulation (slow) rather than
>by his spine being snapped (quick).
>
>Now, if the state can't murder a guy any more efficiently than that, they
>should call on a professional. Like, maybe, a mob hitman (.22 behind
>the ear), teenage gang member (Uzi), or right-to-lifer (pipe bomb).
                                         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Or maybe a pro choice advocate to cut him in pices or burn him up with 
caustic chemicals.

>
>Mike
Newsgroups: pnw.general
From: davidst@microsoft.com (David Steckler)
Subject: Re: Wesley A. Dodd
Date: 05 Jan 93 17:23:56 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corporation
Distribution: pnw

In article <C0CGA6.CnH@bcstec.ca.boeing.com> robs@bcstec.ca.boeing.com (Robert Sipe) writes:
>  So what is the general opinion regarding the hanging of Dodd?  Will it
>happen or will the ACLU be successful in obtaining clemency?  I saw a towm
>meeting dedicated to the punishment of Dodd and it seems the vast majority
>of attendees would like sentence carried out.  The Gal from amnisty 
>International appeared to be a bit out of touch with the rest of Seattle's
>mood.
>
>

As you can tell by my posting time, Dodd is already dead. No, our current
implementation of the death penalty is not a deterant and I can't think of
how we could make it such without grievously infringing on the rights of the
accused. And no, Dodd being an exception, the cost of putting someone to
death is more than the cost of keeping them alive for the next 50 years, so
that is not a pro-death-penalty argument either. But one very important thing
has been accomplished by Dodd's execution: no one, from the prison guards he
has said he would kill whether he escapes or not, to the children he has said
he would kill if he does escape, will die at his hands ever again. Also, no
other inmates will be affected by his complete sociopathic attitude.

These are reasons enough for me to feel some relief at his execution.

	...Dave
Newsgroups: pnw.general
From: josh@Happy-Man.com (Joshua_Putnam)
Subject: Re: Seattle City Light vs. Puget Power
Reply-To: Joshua_Putnam@happy-man.com
Organization: Happy Man Corp., Vashon Island, WA 98070-7399
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 17:13:39 GMT

In <1993Jan11.202113.12327@ssc.com> markz@ssc.com (Mark Zenier) writes:

>David Ruggiero (osiris@halcyon.com) wrote:
>: Puget Power,
>: on the other hand, has to either generate its own power using fossil
>: fuels or buy it at higher (near market) rates from the BPA (with its
>: newer, higher-cost dams and WPPSS involvement), or at very high (full
>: market) rates from the West Coast grid.

>Puget Power runs the two dams (Baker and Upper Baker) at Concrete on 
>the North Cascades Highway.  I think they have some others in southwest 
>Washington either in the south Cascades or the south Olympics.

Puget has hydro sites at Nooksack, Upper & Lower Baker,
Snoqualmie, White River, and Electron.  These days, since Puget's
service area is growing so fast, its owned hydro makes up just 8%
of total Puget supply.  Having seen the unbelievable regulatory
costs of routine maintenance at existing hydro sites, I can see
why Puget can't develop new hydro projects in pace with the
growth in its service area.  (It doesn't help that Puget planned
for growth so far in advance that some of its hydro projects have
been declared historic, either.)

Remember, Puget's service area covers some of the fastest growing
parts of the state -- east King County, Bellingham, the I-90
corridor past Ellensburg, etc.  Seattle City Light has an older
service area and slower demand growth, so it doesn't need to
expand capacity as quickly.
-- 
 Joshua_Putnam@happy-man.com    Happy Man Corp.  206/463-9399 x102
 4410 SW Pt. Robinson Rd., Vashon Island, WA  98070-7399  fax x108
 We publish SOLID VALUE for the intelligent investor.  NextMail OK
Info free; sample $20: Send POSTAL addr: Solid-Value@happy-man.com
From: charlesw@sail.LABS.TEK.COM (Charles Wilson)
Newsgroups: pnw.general
Subject: Re: Bill Clinton won't send his daughter to public schools
Date: 7 Jan 93 18:55:12 GMT
Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Beaverton,  OR.

In article <crystal.726373335@glia> crystal@glia.biostr.washington.edu (Crystal) writes:
>In <13151@sail.LABS.TEK.COM> charlesw@sail.LABS.TEK.COM (Charles Wilson) writes:
>
>>In article <crystal.726363129@glia> crystal@glia.biostr.washington.edu (Crystal) writes:
>>>In <13146@sail.LABS.TEK.COM> charlesw@sail.LABS.TEK.COM (Charles Wilson) writes:
>>He's got the money to send his kids to any school he chooses.
>>I don't have a problem with that.
>>I do have a problem with him limiting my choices.  He's limiting my
>>choices for my children's education to institutions which do not have to
>>compete for customers (students).  
>
>Clinton didn't limit your choices.  There have been private schools in 
>existence since the turn of the century, if not earlier.  The only limitation
>on one's choices is the amount of money they make.  And everyone can make
>the choice of learning the skills for a better paying job if they choose.
>
>It's called "dedication".

You caught me.  I fretted over the "Clinton is limiting my choices"
statement, because I don't really believe anyone really limits our choices
but ourselves.  I could probably choose to live in some little run-down
apartment for $200 a month, drive a beater '72 Pinto (bought for $400),
etc., or just make more money, and THOSE choices would allow me to send
my children to private school.  I agree whole-heartedly with you on this.

I was trying to make a point, however.  I don't see Clinton's actions
being consistent with his position as leader of our country.  If he
believes the public school system is o.k., he should send his daughter
to those (the best?) schools.  If he doesn't believe the public school
system is the best, he should state so and work on allowing fair
competition between ALL schools.  He is a leader, and as such, it DOES
matter what he does and says.  He makes a statement whether he is
meaning to or not.
From: monaghan@cac.washington.edu (Tracy Monaghan )
Newsgroups: pnw.general
Subject: Re: Wesley A. Dodd
Date: 5 Jan 93 19:58:07 GMT
Article-I.D.: shelley.1icp8fINNd2p
Distribution: pnw
Organization: UW Computing
NNTP-Posting-Host: red2.cac.washington.edu

In article <C0CGA6.CnH@bcstec.ca.boeing.com> robs@bcstec.ca.boeing.com (Robert Sipe) writes:
>
>  So what is the general opinion regarding the hanging of Dodd?  Will it

Barbaric and anachronistic, IMHO
Newsgroups: pnw.general,misc.jobs.wanted
From: h.modell@ieee.org (Howard Modell)
Subject: Sr.Software Engineer seeks new position
Organization: Boeing Defense & Space Group
Distribution: pnw
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 19:20:16 GMT

Please reply via email (h.modell@ieee.org)

I am currently searching for open positions, either as a software developer
 or an instructor.  I am a seasoned Software Professional with 14 years as
a  software developer (8 years developing compilers, 6 more creating either
system software or GUI software), and can be considered an expert in C,
FORTRAN and Pascal (I'm comfortable in other prog.languages, as well) and
have worked on many, diverse platforms (IBM mainframes, Vax's,
workstations, PC's, and Macintoshes).  I have both an M.S. and a B.S. in
Computer Science and have been an instructor, and would not mind getting
back to teaching again.

I'm looking for a position either in S.King County or Pierce County.

I would greatly appreciate hearing from anyone who might know of openings
where I might be suitable.

resume available on request.

Howard Modell
h.modell@ieee.org
From: bright@nazgul.UUCP (Walter Bright)
Newsgroups: pnw.general
Subject: Re: Trust Me - I'm from the Government to help you
Date: 9 Jan 93 02:17:12 GMT
Reply-To: bright@nazgul.UUCP (Walter Bright)
Organization: Zortech, Seattle

In article <1ii31eINNa7a@shelley.u.washington.edu> monaghan@cac.washington.edu (Tracy Monaghan ) writes:
/I haven't seen a paper yet today, but last I heard, the public (K-12)
/schools were still administered locally.

They are financed by Washington State, their agenda is set by the State,
the salaries are set by the State, Judith ($11,000 desk set) Billings is
the *State* Superintendant of schools, etc. If you agree that WA State is
"locally", then we are in agreement.
Newsgroups: pnw.general
From: josh@Happy-Man.com (Joshua_Putnam)
Subject: Re: Trust Me - I'm from the Government to help you
Reply-To: Joshua_Putnam@happy-man.com
Organization: Happy Man Corp., Vashon Island, WA 98070-7399
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 17:36:01 GMT

In <1993Jan07.183331.2421@ssc.com> fyl@ssc.com (Phil Hughes) writes:

>Add up the two costs above and you get numbers around 25% of the
>cost of "health care".  In other words, for every $1 you spend in
>health care, $.25 goes to processing paperwork that has nothing to
>do with the actual care; just the bill.

The following table gives a breakdown of healthcare
expenditures in 1970 and 1990.  It's taken from the 1992
Statistical Abstract, No.137, National Healthcare
Expenditures by Object, 1970 to 1990.

                                         1970   1990
                                           %      % 
Personal services & supplies
 Hospital Care                           37.6   38.4
 Pysician's services                     18.3   18.9
 Dentist's services                       6.3    5.1
 Other professional services              2.0    4.7
 Home health care                         0.2    1.0
 Drugs & other nondurables               11.8    8.2
 Vision products & other durables         2.7    1.8
 Nursing home care                        6.5    8.0
 Other health services                    1.8    1.7
Net insurance & administration costs      3.7    5.8
Gov't public health activities            2.6    1.9
Medical facilities construction           4.5    1.6

Spent by
 Consumers                               56.9   53.0
 Government                              37.2   42.4
 Other                                    5.9    4.6


Obviously, some of the paperwork costs end up in the hospital and 
professional services, but without a reliable reference I'd be 
hesitant to accept a 25% paperwork burden from the multiple payer 
system.  Not that I consider the present system efficient -- far 
from it -- just that there are so many other expenses involved 
besides paperwork.  
-- 
 Joshua_Putnam@happy-man.com    Happy Man Corp.  206/463-9399 x102
 4410 SW Pt. Robinson Rd., Vashon Island, WA  98070-7399  fax x108
 We publish SOLID VALUE for the intelligent investor.  NextMail OK
Info free; sample $20: Send POSTAL addr: Solid-Value@happy-man.com
Newsgroups: pnw.general
From: bill@Celestial.COM (Bill Campbell)
Subject: Re: Wesley A. Dodd
Organization: Celestial Software, Mercer Island, WA
Distribution: pnw
Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1993 18:10:43 GMT

In <1993Jan5.212321.23381@tera.com> erik@tera.com (Erik Hedberg) writes:

....
:Further clouding the issue is the fact that "life without parole" is
:*cheaper* than execution.  Some people might not agree with this, but
:this is what I was taught in a criminal law class in college.  You can
:do the math for yourself.  If it costs $40K/yr to house inmates, and
:about $100K to build a cell, and the "average" inmate in question is
:sentenced at age 27, lives to age 75, this comes to (75-27)*40K + 100K
:= $2.02M (in a new cell).  This is a lot, but the costs of appeals
:easily exceeds this.  Remember, government pays the prosecutors,
:defense attorneys, and the judges.  The figure we were taught (in
:1975) was about $10M for capital appeals to be exhausted.
:Streamlining the appeals process reduces the $10M, but it needs to be
:cut by 80% to match the $2M.

Simple solution -- hang the lawyers!  This will eliminate the
appeals and much of the backlog in the courts.

Bill
-- 
INTERNET:  bill@Celestial.COM   Bill Campbell; Celestial Software
UUCP:   ...!thebes!camco!bill   6641 East Mercer Way
             uunet!camco!bill   Mercer Island, WA 98040; (206) 947-5591
SPEED COSTS MONEY -- HOW FAST DO YOU WANT TO GO?
From: johnl@pcx.ncd.com (John Light)
Newsgroups: pnw.general
Subject: Palin's Pole to Pole
Date: 12 Jan 93 02:07:47 GMT
Article-I.D.: pcx.1993Jan12.020747.18064
Organization: NCD PC-Xdivision

I misprogrammed my VCR and didn't get the first hour of Michael Palin's
Pole to Pole on A&E.  If anyone is willing to let me view his or her
copy, my whole family would be mightily appreciative.

John Light
johnl@pcx.ncd.com
636-3199
Newsgroups: pnw.general
From: jamesd@techbook.com (James Deibele)
Subject: Re: Wesley A. Dodd
Organization: TECHbooks --- Public Access UNIX --- (503) 220-0636
Distribution: pnw
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 19:39:57 GMT

davevh@microsoft.com (Dave Van Horn) writes:

>Erik Hedberg writes:

>>Further clouding the issue is the fact that "life without parole" is
>>*cheaper* than execution.

>Six times cheaper, on average, according to CBS News.

And where did they get their figures from?  I've always heard the
argument extended by opponents of capital punishment.  Which is not to
say that I don't agree that the appeals process makes a mockery of the
judicial system and inflates costs way beyond what they should be.  In
the case of Westley A. Dodd, I doubt that it was six more times more
expensive to kill him than imprison him for life.  But he made no
attempt to file appeal after appeal after appeal.

Either the death penalty should be abolished nationwide or we should have
a streamlined appeals process for capital punishment.  The last minute 
attempts to delay execution should be eliminated in most cases.  

I admire the dedication with which opponents of the death penalty fight
to keep criminals alive.  But I think it's time to remove the monkey
wrench of continuous appeals from the current system, which is really 
the worst of both worlds.

--
jamesd@techbook.COM                   "2516 newsgroups & nothing on ..."  
PDaXs gives free access to news & mail. (503) 220-0636 - 1200/2400, N81  
Full internet (ftp, telnet, irc) access available. Voice: (503) 223-4245
From: skele@tc.fluke.COM (Martins Skele)
Newsgroups: pnw.general
Subject: Re: Bill Clinton won't send his daughter to public schools
Date: 8 Jan 93 17:06:04 GMT
Article-I.D.: tc.1993Jan8.170604.29297
Organization: John Fluke Mfg. Co., Inc., Everett, WA

bright@nazgul.UUCP (Walter Bright) writes:

>Well, the hypocrisy of the Clinton administration has already started.  The
>Clintons are sending Chelsea to an expensive private school.  So much for the
>great and gradiose promises.
>Bill Clinton knows perfectly well what sending his daughter to public school
>in Washington DC would mean.  After years of ``just throw more tax money and
>all problems will be solved'' mismanagement, public schools are a nightmare; a
>lot happens there, but not very much education.

There is nothing hypocritical about sending your kids to a private school while
urging improvements for public schools.

Another poster stated that sending his kids to a private school would require a
sharp reduction in his living stadard (drive a beater and move to a cheaper
apartment etc). Therefore he should be subsidized by the government. I don't see
how this follows. I made just that choice when I overheard people on the ferry
bragging about how good the incredibly bad South Whidbey school system is.

The quality of education does not depend strongly on the salaries of teachers, the
size of classrooms, or the age of the school buildings. It depends on the standards
of the local school board, the local community, the state, and the nation, roughly
in that order. Until people decide that they want their children to learn something,
and stop interfering when a teacher tries to make them do some work, our public
schools will never improve. Having said that, I still don't believe that we should
siphon funds from the public school system to subsidize those who have chosen to
abandon that system.
Newsgroups: pnw.general
From: robs@bcstec.ca.boeing.com (Robert Sipe)
Subject: Re: Wesley A. Dodd
Organization: Boeing
Distribution: pnw
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 22:37:00 GMT

In article <1993Jan08.181043.16982@Celestial.COM> bill@Celestial.COM (Bill Campbell) writes:
>In <1993Jan5.212321.23381@tera.com> erik@tera.com (Erik Hedberg) writes:
>
>....
>:Further clouding the issue is the fact that "life without parole" is
>:*cheaper* than execution.  Some people might not agree with this, but
>:this is what I was taught in a criminal law class in college.  You can
>:do the math for yourself.  If it costs $40K/yr to house inmates, and
>:about $100K to build a cell, and the "average" inmate in question is
>:sentenced at age 27, lives to age 75, this comes to (75-27)*40K + 100K
>:= $2.02M (in a new cell).  This is a lot, but the costs of appeals
>:easily exceeds this.  Remember, government pays the prosecutors,
>:defense attorneys, and the judges.  The figure we were taught (in
>:1975) was about $10M for capital appeals to be exhausted.
>:Streamlining the appeals process reduces the $10M, but it needs to be
>:cut by 80% to match the $2M.
>
>Simple solution -- hang the lawyers!  This will eliminate the
>appeals and much of the backlog in the courts.





The cost breakdown of keeping a prisioner in prism for $40k/yr is
a bit erronious at best.  One needs to keep health care in mind as
well.  Medical, dental, and optical costs will far exceed that amount
as the prisoner ages and requires additional services.  Leagal costs
need to be factored in too.  Each time a parole hearing is held
will add to the cost of housing the convict.  The other unaccounted
for cost is inflation.  Costs continue to climb North for all essentials
of life.  This $40k/yr amount is not going to be valid several years
down the road.  There is one other scenerio, what do you do with a 
criminal who kills while sentenced to prison for life?  

Sol'n - Hang 'um and hang 'um high!

The idea with the lawyers is admirable too.



-- 
A town that had they Nativity scene thwarted by the ACLU placed a banner
saying "The ACLU is jealous of our Nativity scene for the fact that they
don't have 3 wisemen and a virgin in their organization".
From: andrew@frip.WV.TEK.COM (Andrew Klossner)
Newsgroups: pnw.general
Subject: Re: Incredible Universe
Date: 11 Jan 93 17:51:49 GMT
Reply-To: andrew@frip.wv.tek.com
Organization: Tektronix Color Printers, Wilsonville, Oregon

[]

	"I don't really understand why this is controversial."

"Controversy: a dispute, esp. a lengthy and public one, between sides
holding opposite views."  There are people in the Portland area with
strong views in favor and other people with strong views against, and
some of us have been debating the matter.  

	"I once tried to buy some expensive electronic equipment with a
	credit card.  The clerk wanted all kinds of personal
	information ..."

If the plastic was Visa or Mastercard and this happened in the last
half-decade, the store violated their contract and you could file a
complaint with the plastic issuer.

  -=- Andrew Klossner  (andrew@frip.wv.tek.com)
                       (uunet!tektronix!frip.WV.TEK!andrew)
From: crystal@glia.biostr.washington.edu (Crystal)
Newsgroups: pnw.general
Subject: Re: Bill Clinton won't send his daughter to public schools
Date: 6 Jan 93 23:32:09 GMT
Article-I.D.: glia.crystal.726363129
Organization: University of Washington
NNTP-Posting-Host: glia.biostr.washington.edu

In <13146@sail.LABS.TEK.COM> charlesw@sail.LABS.TEK.COM (Charles Wilson) writes:

>In article <crystal.726283133@glia> crystal@glia.biostr.washington.edu (Crystal) writes:
>>In <MS-C.726280864.1103527590.mrc@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU> Mark Crispin <mrc@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU> writes:
>>
>>>Well, the hypocrisy of the Clinton administration has already started.  The
>>>Clintons are sending Chelsea to an expensive private school.  So much for the

>>Likely the reason is more due to security and fear of the daughter getting 
>>harrassed or kidnapped or something.  That's not something a parent will admit

>>I see no hypocrisy, just common sense safety for the Presidential children).

>Oh, I see.  They don't allow harrassment or kidnapping at Private Elitist
>schools, only at the commoners public schools.  That makes sense.  You're
>right, I should be happy to send my children to public schools were they
>may be harrassed or kidnapped.  But not the President.  He has more 
>important things on his mind.  HIS child should be protected from such
>things.


I seem to detect a bit of jealousy here...go ahead, send your kids to a private school...it's your choice.
Newsgroups: pnw.general