From: vixie@pa.dec.com (Paul A Vixie)
Subject: Re: When the father is out of a job.
Followup-To: alt.child-support
Organization: DEC Network Software Lab
	<VIXIE.92Apr4225720@cognition.pa.dec.com>
	<1992Apr7.011706.29416@cbnewsk.cb.att.com> <767@dogear.spk.wa.us>
Distribution: usa
Date: 13 Apr 92 17:58:06

On April 4, Paul Vixie wrote:

>> You know things are pretty bad when the caged rats start to eat eachother.

On April 8, Bob Kirkpatrick replied:

>> I'm sorry Paul, I just don't buy it.
>>
>> The whole concept here is one of indignity, injustice, exploitation,
>> frustration, and hundreds of other emotions.
>>
>> What we're talking about here is a fundamental human loss. I've often found
>> my pain so acute, so over-powering that I gave thought to blowing my own
>> brains out. Time has passed, and for the moment, _the moment_, I have a
>> grip.  Others in our midst have not been so lucky. Example Allen Wells who
>> took his life for the pain and suffering.

You're preaching to the choir.  I think my experiences as a father have earned
me my stripes -- tire tracks across my back, in fact.  I have felt the kind of
desolation you describe.  Many nights I don't fall asleep until 3 or 4AM since
I can't get my son out of my mind and I can't get the pain to be out of focus.

>> What we're talking here is fundamental human dignity. The right to stand and
>> be counted as simply human --due the same rights, consideration and respect
>> as any other. When that dignity is impaired, or referred to as worthless -as
>> the post which started this thread intimated (no win-win so lay down and 
>> give till you die), then anger and reaction is certainly called for.

I _understand_ the anger involved.  But while I understood how Aaron felt, I
also understood how Joel felt.  Aaron ripped Joel a new asshole out of anger
at what looked like Joel having given up and apparently recommending that
others do likewise.  I didn't read Joel's article as including that recommend-
ation; all I saw was a man in great pain who felt that a terrible injustice
had been done to him by his co-parent and perhaps by the court system.

I don't expect the folks in this forum to contain or block or redirect all of
their anger; injustice _is_ being done and repressing one's reaction to that
helps nobody.  But "taking it out" on folks like Joel who are hurting as much
as or more than the rest of us, likewise helps nobody.

>> Yes, we'd like to be great human beings who always maintain control --but 
>> the simple fact is that many graves are filled with those who took in
>> silence. 

There's not much silence on this newsgroup :-).  What I'm trying to promote
is compassion, not silence.  OK, so we're angry.  But that's not our defining
characteristic; if we felt nothing but _anger_, then we probably would not
deserve to be parents _anyway_.  We hopefully ground our anger in our
frustration at being unjustly prevented from being parents to our children.
So, OK, let's be angry.  But not anger for anger's sake, and not anger toward
eachother over what might be a misunderstanding and in a way that will cause
more harm and more hurt.

I think that Aaron and I cleared this up in subsequent articles, so there's
no point in rehashing that detail.  If you want to continue to discuss the
meta-issue of "caged rats eating eachother", I'm willing.
--
Paul Vixie, DEC Network Systems Lab	
Palo Alto, California, USA         	"Ready, Fire, Aim"
<vixie@pa.dec.com> decwrl!vixie
<paul@vix.com>     vixie!paul          alt.pink.bunny.boom.boom.boom moderator
Newsgroups: alt.child-support