HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: nkjrm@taxus.uib.no (Rolf Manne)
Subject: Re: A question to Norway about Shetland Is.
Organization: University of Bergen
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 10:05:03 GMT

In article <kjell-201192155216@g0-mac2.ekti.chalmers.se> kjell@emke.chalmers.se (Kjell Siimon) writes:


>Hello Norwegian brotherhod!

>Here's a subject about the Shetland Islands in the North Sea.
>Those islands have for the last 500 years been ruled by the Union Jack.
>But before that they have been owned by Norway for more than 700 years.
>There are people living on the islands today claiming that they either want
>to be free, or ruled by Norway again.
>What do you think?
>Is there any opinion about this in Norway?

>Happy for any reply.


>Kjell the Brave

Why not first raise the issue about giving back Bohuslaen to Norway,
including parts within the present limits of Goeteborg (Gothenburg). That 
would make Volvo a Norwegian car, I think :-) :-)

These areas have been Swedish  only since 1658, and there are people there
who still understand Norwegian. I believe that the Nordic language 
disappeared from the Shetland Islands in the 18th century.

Rolf Manne
e-mail Rolf.Manne@uib.no
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: jkp@cs.HUT.FI (Jyrki Kuoppala)
Subject: Re: Alcoholism in Scandinavia..(with driving added)
Reply-To: jkp@cs.HUT.FI (Jyrki Kuoppala)
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 22:45:20 GMT

In article <1992Nov17.175642.29415@nmsu.edu>, rpeter@nmsu (Peter Herman x5495) writes:
>I am sure that some of this sort of learning has taken place with
>the help of some strict drunken driving laws.

>associated with it or loose it.  In talking with 18-21 yr old Swedes, 
>I get the feeling that the inhibition is no longer primarily legal 
>but rather social.  Driving home drunk seems to be viewed not as

I think in Finland as well it's socially unacceptable.

But what makes you think the strict laws are the reason for the
attitude change?  I wouldn't think so.  I'd say it's more due to
education, TV ads/public service messages and other such means
specifically planned to tell that driving under influence is a bad
idea and dangerous to others.

//Jyrki
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: ryyti@jyu.fi (Jarmo Ryyti)
Subject: Re: Keskustelua suomalaisten asemasta Ruotsissa
Organization: University of Jyvaskyla, Finland
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 11:10:34 GMT

Tor Lillqvist (tml@tik.vtt.fi) wrote:
: In article <hberg.207@polisci.umn.edu> hberg@polisci.umn.edu (Bob
: Hammarberg) writes (translating Jarmo's latest article):
: 
:    "In my opinion, my personal opinion to be sure, the comparison of Sweden to 
:    Nazi Germany is not far fetched.  In Sweden only one language is elevated 
:    above all others to the status of mother-tongue - as if it were a superior 
:    "Arian" language.  All other languages are inferior; they are called home 
:    languages.  In Germany, the same kind of policies were pursued during the 
:    30s.  Finland's conscience is clear in this respect; Sweden's isn't.  
: 
: I didn't know that the Nazis' policien was mainly about what to call
: subjects at school, I must have been misinformed.
: 
: So, Jarmo says that if a pupil in a Finnish school whose mother tongue
: is for instance Arabic somehow could manage to get some education in
: this language, her school diploma (?) marks for "{idinkieli" (mother
: tongue) would refer to her knowledge of Arabic?  Yeah, sure.

I happen to know this because my colleque is involved in this business.
She was a teacher for the Finnish kids in Sweden (bacause Sweden does not
educate Finnish speaking teachers!). By our policy, 
in this is that arabic is his mothertongue and it is in his diploma too.
Finnish is just finnish.
So a pupil going to a school in Finland and has for instance arabic
as a mother tongue studies arabic as a mother tongue, it is called
his mother tongue in our byrocracy not a home language.
 In this sence Finnish policy is quite
different to that of Sweden, in Finland such a term like home-language
is not used because it is derogatory and the designers who design
education for the immigrants have experience of Swedish model which
is concidered as a warning example.

Comparing immigrants is an other thing, the Finnish population
in Sweden are not entirely immigrants. 

When writing about home-language  I knew this all the time.

 Sweden is very ethnocentric nation which had a lot to learn
from Finland in these things,  Finland is
bilingual and we think differently. 
: --


Terveisin,
Jarmo
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: euafri@eua.ericsson.se (Fredrik stman)
Subject: Re: Democracy
Reply-To: euafri@eua.ericsson.se
Organization: Ellemtel Telecom Systems Labs, Stockholm, Sweden
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 11:00:18 GMT


>Anders Andersson writes:

>>In a true democracy, you do whatever the majority decides you
>>can do.

>>It means 'ruled by (the) people' and does not
>>imply anything about human rights and protection of individuals
>>or minorities, other than at the whim of the majority.


Marc S. Jensen writes:

>Human rights may very well exist in a democratic government (which
>they frequently do), but whether the majority of people wants it that way
> [...], it is *not* an inherent characteristic of democracy.


You both talk about *a* democracy, but what is *a* democracy? I note Marc says
  
>country
> democracy as a form of government
>democracy in Sweden or Norway or Denmark 
> the population in those countries

so I guess he's got the same idea as I, that to rule, you must rule
something, and for *the people* to rule, this something must contain
enough people to be *a people*. This something can be called a society.
Traditionally, peoples and democracies have been defined within
national states.

Now is it inherent in the act of ruling ~a society~, e.g. a county,
that you should also rule individuals residing in the same geographical
area as the society, other than in their role as members of that
society?

A society, the geographical area it claims, and the individuals of
different species living there are *not* the same things! That is the
nature of the so called ~human rights~, whether defined on liberal or
conservative premises.

Democracy, as a political term and in the definition it is most often
used, does imply human rights. Note that I have made no assumption as
to the extent and nature of these rights. I am not trying to monopolise
the term for a specific political view.


>Actually, in a *true* democracy, freedom of the individual would more than
>likely be severely limited in many ways.

This sounds like a definition made to fit the name of one of the
political parties in USA.

---
         ______                     _~
        (_/_ _  _  _/) _  . /)     / ) , _/)     _
       __/ _/(_(/_(/__/(_/_/Z_    (_/_/)_/__/))_(I_/)_
From: tml@tik.vtt.fi (Tor Lillqvist)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: What's wrong with Finnish? (WAS: Pakko
Followup-To: soc.culture.nordic
Date: 23 Nov 92 12:05:31
Organization: Technical Research Centre of Finland, Laboratory for Information
	Processing (VTT/TIK)
	<TORKEL.92Nov20115405@isis.sics.se>
	<1992Nov21.215102.26009@nntp.hut.fi>
	<TORKEL.92Nov22003206@bast.sics.se>
	<1992Nov22.232650.14208@nntp.hut.fi>
	<ksand-221192175001@wintermute.apple.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tiuhti.tik.vtt.fi
In-reply-to: ksand@apple.com's message of Mon, 23 Nov 1992 01:52:40 GMT

In article <ksand-221192175001@wintermute.apple.com> ksand@apple.com (Kent Sandvik ) writes:
   2) Known trick of the East Coast Finns, when they eat fish
   the bones drop out from the side of the mouth

Perhaps you have been too long in the US... Where is the East Coast of
Finland? ;-)
--
Tor Lillqvist,
working, but not speaking, for the Technical Research Centre of Finland,
Laboratory for Information Processing (VTT/TIK).
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: lhe@sics.se (Lars-Henrik Eriksson)
Subject: Re: Looking for a relative phone number in Stockholm
Organization: Swedish Institute of Computer Science, Kista
	<1992Nov18.105406.21485@news.acns.nwu.edu>
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 12:06:16 GMT

In article <1992Nov18.105406.21485@news.acns.nwu.edu> hpa@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (H. Peter Anvin N9ITP) writes:
   An eight-digit phone number in Sweden?  Really?  What can happen when you
   are gone for four and a half years... what's going to be next?  Split up
   the regulatory and business parts of Televerket?  ;-)

Yes. That has already been decided and partly implemented.
--
Lars-Henrik Eriksson                            Internet: lhe@sics.se
Swedish Institute of Computer Science           Phone (intn'l): +46 8 752 15 09
Box 1263                                        Telefon (nat'l): 08 - 752 15 09
S-164 28  KISTA, SWEDEN                         Fax: +46 8 751 72 30
From: mikatuo@sara.cc.utu.fi
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: M.A. Numminen (was: Assimilation of...)
Date: 20 Nov 92 13:27:48 GMT
Organization: University of Turku, Finland

In article <hberg.213@polisci.umn.edu>, hberg@polisci.umn.edu (Bob Hammarberg) writes:
> In article <1992Nov11.132146.16058@eua.ericsson.se> euaaen@eua.ericsson.se (Anders Engwall) writes:
> 
>>live at Turku University. From the recording location and the sound I
>>seriously suspect that our M.A. was at the time backed by no other combo
>>than the infamous Axelbandet. True/false?
 
FALSE.

The band with M.A. is SOHON TORWET, another (and better smelling) student
orchester in Turku. M.A. Numminen and SOHON TORWET have performed Wofon
Mann Nicht Sprechen Kann also quite recently.


Mika
 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: ryyti@jyu.fi (Jarmo Ryyti)
Subject: Re: Tasa-arvopuheet ovat osoittautuneet korulauseiksi
Organization: University of Jyvaskyla, Finland
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 09:38:49 GMT

Torkel Franzen (torkel@sics.se) wrote:
: In article <By2J3G.4AF@news.chalmers.se> d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se 
: (Bertil Jonell) writes:
: 
:   >Additionally I still ask Jarmo Ryyti to write to talk.politics.middle-east 
:   >and soc.culture.jewish and ask them if they agree that Sweden is as bad
:   >as the Nazis.
: 
:   Come on, what's supposed to be the point of this? Going on and on about how
: silly it is to compare X to Nazi Germany is almost as silly as the comparison
: itself.


The point is that Esa Mikkonen in Ruotsinsuomalainen reveals a thing that
Sweden did not undersigned the Treaty of Protection of the Minorities
in Europe as 10 European countries did. If it is true I would not wonder it.

 We had 1975 in Helsinki a Congress of Security and
Cooperation in Europe. There in so called "Social Dimension Basket" was
among the others the minority issues but the members of the meeting
did vote against it and the minority issues were not taken an the agenda 1975,
the nations which did see it " unnecessary" were Sweden and Soviet Union.
This summer this Congress was for the second time in Helsinki. 
This time the minority question was taken on the agenda and Sweden
did not resist, because there were discussed Xyogoslavia,Nagorno-Karabah
issues. Still the minority rights were not taken more broader
to the agenda, the reasons are for me unknown.

Something about the situation tells the demonstrators during the congress
in Helsinki,
the fact is that there were demonstrators against turkish policy by the kurds
and one Swedenfinn demonstrating against Swedish minority policy towards
the Finns. Sweden was not in so good company from this point of view!
The picture of this man demonstrating was circulating at least in our
local newspaper. Was he just an imaginatory invention by the newspapers
or not?
But the fact is that the only demonstrators during the Meeting were the
Kurds and a brave Swedenfinn.

You could not see any Finlandswede demonstrating against Finnish minority
policy but a Swedenfinn demonstrating against his own country, Sweden.
Why this way, someone could explain.
Regards.

Jarmo Ryyti
En Finne igen

Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: f33012l@puukko.hut.fi (Janne Kivel{)
Subject: Re: Some history about AAland
Reply-To: f33012l@puukko.hut.fi (Janne Kivel{)
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 13:45:30 GMT

osstlm@eua.ericsson.se writes:
>In article 19669@cs.hut.fi, f33012l@puukko.hut.fi (Janne Kivel{) writes:

>> If I remember right it's very difficult to become a permanent resident
>> in the Channel Islands as well. I don't think the status of Aaland is
>
>The Channel Islands are *not* members of the EEC !

Channel Islands are part of UK, but I don't know exactly what their
status in respect of the EC is. If Finland became a member of the EC, Aaland 
could very well have similar position as Channel Islands.

>/Tomas
>
>Tomas Lundstrom
>Objective Systems SF AB
>box 1128
>S-164 22 Kista
>SWEDEN
>
>email: tomas@os.se
>phone: +46 8 703 45 92
>fax: +46 8 750 80 56
>
>DISCLAIMER: Ellemtel Utvecklings AB, where I work as a consultant
>	    right now, has nothing to do with this posting, I'm
>	    just posting from their site.
>
>DISCLAIMER: The stated opinions are my own. If a posting reflects
>	    the official policy of my company, Objective Systems SF AB,
>	    this is explicitly stated.

It might be a good idea to trim down the signature just a little bit.

Janne Kivela"

      "N{m{kin pusakat vain viisysiysi. Ja kaikista valtakunnan..."
                     ----- Simo vaatehuoneelta
From: d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se (Bertil Jonell)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Tasa-arvopuheet ovat osoittautuneet korulauseiksi
Date: 23 Nov 92 20:06:11 GMT
Organization: Chalmers Tekniska Lekskola, G|teborg, G|taland

In article <1992Nov23.101301.6895@sai.vtt.fi> kissa@cortex.sai.vtt.fi (Kimmo Saarinen) writes:
>At the moment when I see here a vast amount of those crossposted
>answers I'll start to send you private email, one in every hour
>24 hours per day, seven days per week. After one week I'll change
>the schedule : you'll get two personal messages per hour. After
>two weeks I double it again.

  I find it very telling that after that Jarmo have gone on and on for two 
weeks, you suddenly jump on me when I start talking about that Jarmo should
take responsibility for what he writes.

>I announce this publicitely because in my interests is to keep 
>this newsgroup as decent forum

  What have you done about Jarmo lately? On what grounds do you determine
decency? Is is that you feel that he is so beyond reason that no actions 
would faze him?

>and the possible consequencies 
>from the Bertil's action can be that this newsgroup is soon
>full of ill natured hate mail etc.  We don't want it ?

  This group is already full of ill natured hate mail. You seem to say that
hate mail from Ryyti is ok while hate mail against Ryyti is not ok. If you
really mean that it's the kind of thing I'd expect from you-know-who.

>Kimmo Saarinen                         ! e-mail  kissa@cortex.sai.vtt.FI

-bertil-
--
"Ack! Phht!" - Bill the Prez
From: zaphod@diku.dk (Ole D. M. Lennert)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Denmark and Maastricht -- Questions
Date: 18 Nov 92 15:12:29 GMT
Organization: Department of Computer Science, U of Copenhagen

mjensen@cs.utexas.edu (Marc S. Jensen) writes:

>Greetings...

(text deleted)

>At any rate, I am curious to know, first of all, exactly what the status
>of Maastricht (and I am well aware that I may be spelling it incorrectly;
>what do you expect with a name like that?) is in Denmark.  Soon to be 
>decided on, already decided, largely ignored, or what?
>Assuming that the matter has not already been decided (in which case this
>entire question should be ignored), does anyone want to hazard a guess as to
>what the decision will be, and to what extent the treaty will have to be
>modified to be accepted?  How will the rest of the EC react to this?  Will
>they even care?
>To what extent, if at all, will the Danish decision affect the Norwegian and
>Swedish decisions on whether or not to become part of this whole EC
>mess?  Will *they* even care?

There was a referendum on the Maastricht Treaty in Denmark, in June I
think (I may be confusing the date with the european soccer
championship!). To the surprise of all politicians and eurocrats, the
result was a no (I think 51% no, 49% yes). As the Maastricht Treaty
has to be ratified by all members of the EC, the other states got pretty
mad at Denmark. Currently the danish goverment is trying to get a
special agreement about some areas where Denmark will *not* be
participating in a european union. It is areas such as union
citizenship, common military and foreign policy and the common
monetary system. When (if) such a special agreement have been made,
there will be another referendum in Denmark. A recent "test-poll"
showed about 46% yes and 39% no with 16% undecided. Sot it just might
end up with a new no. This will probably mean that Denmark will be
thrown out of the EU *and* the EEC.

>[Personally, I think we should form a United States of Norden, possibly with
>the former Soviet Baltic republics as associate members, then recapture 
>areas like northern Poland and, say, Germany north of Hamburg, and 
>gradually become the central power-block of Europe.  Then the rest of the
>EC could graciously be allowed to come sign the Treaty of Copenhagen (or 
>whereever) so things would be done *right*.  <grin>]

Ja, rigtigt! Danmark til Donau!

>Cheers,
>		-Marc

(Marcs .signature deleted)

Ole Lennert
E-mail: zaphod@diku.dk (school)
        lennert@dina.kvl.dk (work)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: ksand@apple.com (Kent Sandvik )
Subject: Re: What's wrong with Finnish? (WAS: Pakkoruotsi Suomen kouluissa)
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1992 19:52:44 GMT
Organization: Apple
Followup-To: soc.culture.nordic

In article <1992Nov19.182041.25412@eagle.lerc.nasa.gov>,
fslsh@ocs01.lerc.nasa.gov (Lennart S Hultgren) wrote:
> Please remember that soc.culture.... are *all* international news
> groups and thus you should communicate in a language that is widely
> understood.  This is so in particular if you want your points of view
> to have any impact -- if not you may well just be wasting your time
> and bandwidth :-).

Aren't their newsfeeds that only covers the Nordic part of the net?
Then I would agree that Swedish would be the preferred language in
conversations over this part of the net. Most posters in Nordic
countries understand Swedish. However speaking about soc.culture.nordic,
I don't personally mind that people post entries in Swedish (or Finnish,
or whatever). However you have to look at the politeness level and
understand
that there are many persons outside the Nordic countries that read this
newsgroup frequently.

Kent
-------------------
Kent Sandvik (UUCP: ....!apple!ksand; INTERNET: ksand@apple.com)
DISCLAIMER: Private activities on the Net.
From: asterios@emke.chalmers.se (Asterios Kastoris)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: More Danes on the line, please!
Date: 19 Nov 92 13:32:42 GMT
Followup-To: soc.culture.nordic
Organization: Chalmers University of Technology

In article <kjell-181192162253@g0-mac3.ekti.chalmers.se>,
kjell@emke.chalmers.se (Kjell Siimon) wrote:
> 
> 
> Subject says it all.
> The Stockholmers are a majority. ;-)


I agree, subjekt says it all, the Stockholmers are a majority of "...." !
I leave it to anyones imagination to fill in the missing word.

My suggestion is cissys!

Stockholmers, take a hike south!


Asterios
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: ryyti@jyu.fi (Jarmo Ryyti)
Subject: Re: Swedofobia in Jarmo Ryyti
Organization: University of Jyvaskyla, Finland
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 13:34:56 GMT

Bjorn Fahller (bjorn@ludd.luth.se) wrote:
: In <1992Nov19.081028.4777@jyu.fi> ryyti@jyu.fi (Jarmo Ryyti) writes:
: 
: >Well there are no death camps in Amazonas either. In the old records one 
: >can find systematical opression towards the Finns of Warmland, they
: >burned valuable forests (kasekaminen)
: > so they were punished, finnish people because
: >of their language were considered beings wizards and therefore opressed
: >and hanged, the entirely population was forbidden to use besides
: >at home finnish, there was a ban for using finnish, I am comparing
: >their destiny to those of american indians. We know what was and is still
: >goinn on there. 
: 
: As far as I can see you've used past tense in all of the above except for
: your conclusion. Why is that? 
: 
: I think your imagination is amazing. Your comparisons with, was it jews
: first, now indians in amazonas and the red indians of North America. You
: could probably make a living as a story teller. Show me one (1) finn on this
: group supporting you? If you're right, all of them should. I haven't seen any.
This is no competition between the Finns and Swedes , the Finns against
the Swedes or vice versa I am writing about a fact which has happened.
 Whether I compare it or not with or find similarities more known
cases in the world is of course a matter of taste which suits best.
Everyone can choose one which best supports one's own views.
You however did not say where did the Forest Finns disappear and what is
your explanation for the disappearance?

 I do not need any support from any Finn or others.
It is a fact, they "disappeared" and their case is not yet solved out
entirely, because it is historically too near.
:    _
Regards,
Jarmo

Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: ksand@apple.com (Kent Sandvik )
Subject: Re: Stockholmers rule! (Was: More Danes...)
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1992 04:02:10 GMT
Organization: Apple
Followup-To: soc.culture.nordic

In article <1992Nov23.154102.29683@nntp.hut.fi>, k39587m@taltta.hut.fi
(Mikko K{m{r{inen) wrote:
> 
> euafri@eua.ericsson.se (Fredrik stman) writes:
> >Subject says it all.
> 
> Yep. The most expensive city in the world?
> 
> Paid 20 SKr for a tiny cup of coffee.

Hmm, intersting, paid 20Skr for a beer last summer in Stockholm,
and was shocked to realize that this is on the same level as 
in Finland. Still, Stockholm (and Helsinki) are pretty expensive
cities.

Kent
-------------------
Kent Sandvik (UUCP: ....!apple!ksand; INTERNET: ksand@apple.com)
DISCLAIMER: Private activities on the Net.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: ksand@apple.com (Kent Sandvik )
Subject: Re: Terveisi{ Karjalasta
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1992 19:55:11 GMT
Organization: Apple
Followup-To: soc.culture.nordic

In article <1992Nov19.075402.4243@jyu.fi>, ryyti@jyu.fi (Jarmo Ryyti)
wrote:
> Yritys x kysyy Suomesta k{ytettyj{ tietokoneita ja diskettej{ sek{ konttori-
> koneita. Onko langoilla henkil|it{, joita asia kiinnostaisi. Minlata
> saa l{hempi{ tietoja ja osoitteita, yrityksess{ ei ole spostia.
> Yrityksess{ on 56 ty|ntekij{{, dipl. ins.. Etsiv{t suomesta my|s asiantuntija-
> apua ja tarjoavat ty|t{ kahdelle henkil|lle, palkka ruplissa ja t{ys yl|spito.
> Sopisi seikkailunhaluiselle sieluille hyvin. Paikka [{nislinna eli Petroskoi.
> T{m{ firma yksityistet{{n piakkoin, siihen p{{sisi osakkaaksi my|s jos haluaa.

Wasn't there a company in Helsinki that tried to sell Russian computers
for the rest of the world back in the eighties? I always wondered if 
they had any luck with this enterprise...

> Jos kiinnostaa niin v{lit{n yhteyksi{ ensisijaisesti suomalaisille, ruotsa-
> laiset p{rj{tk||n sill{ niin hirve{n t{rke{ll{ ruotsin kielell{{n jota 
> kaikki kuulema osaa joka paikassa sitten muualla.

It would help if you need to expand the business to the rest of the
Nordic countries, instead of limiting your scope to little Finland.


Kent
-------------------
Kent Sandvik (UUCP: ....!apple!ksand; INTERNET: ksand@apple.com)
DISCLAIMER: Private activities on the Net.