HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jsp@uts.amdahl.com (James Preston)
Newsgroups: alt.supermodels,soc.women,alt.feminism,soc.men
Subject: Re: Elle MacPherson causes rape?
Date: 11 Nov 92 23:55:43 GMT
Reply-To: jsp@pls.amdahl.com
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA

marty@world.std.com (Marty M HaleEvans) writes:

}Frankly, I know a lot of guys who have trouble with it, for the same reasons
}the women cited: it makes them feel inadequate and doubtful about their own
}relative attractiveness. Let's not generalize from our own circle of friends,
}whose numbers are almost necessarily too small and homogeneous to make a good
}sample, okay?

I think that another poster's observations were spot on:  That anyone,
male or female, who feels inadequate because of the idealized pictures
that other people choose to hang on their walls has a problem with his
or her self-image.  And that the way to fix that problem is to get into
that person's head and *fix the problem* rather than to remove the trigger
for that problem.  

It's like that old joke about the guy who goes to the doctor and says, 
"Doctor, it hurts when I do this", and the doctor replies, "Then don't
do that."  Sure, it will feel better if the patient doesn't do that, but
the patient will *still* have a problem.  Wouldn't you rather have a doctor
that fixes the problem?

--James Preston
Newsgroups: alt.supermodels
From: x92sh@efd.lth.se (Staffan  Henningson)
Subject: Cindy Crawford
Reply-To: x92sh@efd.lth.se
Organization: Lund Institute of Technology, Sweden
 
 I wonder if anyone knows Cindy's address?
 If you do please send it to me by E-Mail only
 (and i do mean only!)
Distribution: eunet
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 12:29:14 GMT

 x92sh@efd.lth.se


Newsgroups: alt.supermodels,soc.women,alt.feminism,soc.men
From: kettler@pierre.mit.edu (KETTLER, THOMAS R.)
Newsgroups: alt.supermodels
Subject: Re: Info on Barbie Benton wanted
Date: 9 Nov 92 04:16:00 GMT
Organization: MIT Lab for Nuclear Science
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.4-b1

In article <1992Nov2.170131.3544@jarvis.csri.toronto.edu>, ematias@csri.toronto.edu (Ummm... me!)      writes...
>In article <Bx3x2D.Jt7@ra.nrl.navy.mil> drumhell@claudette.nrl.navy.mil (David Drumheller) writes:
>>
>>   Barbie Benton was a playboy centerfold back in the 
>>late 1960's or early 1970's.  She was also Hugh Hefners' 
>>girlfriend for a while.  She later launched a singing/acting 
>>career which led to a few bit parts in movies and television.  
>>
>>   I do remember seeing her in a Fantasy Island episode 
>>back in the 1970's.  Ironically, she played an actress who
>>was having second thoughts about doing a nude scene in a 
>>movie.  Imagine that!
> 
>   Wasn't she also a regular on "Hee Haw" back when it was popular?
>(Er... not that I actually watched that show, of course. :-)
> 
>   I also remember seeing her in *many* bit-parts on shows of the
>late-70's/early-80's era, such as Simon & Simon, Magnum P.I., Charlie's
>Angels, et al.  In my opinion, this was because she's the type of person who
>can captivate a viewer for a short period of time, but wasn't popular enough
>to headline her own show.
> 
> 
>Cheers,
> 
>-Mark-

She also starred in an ABC- I think that was the network- series named 
something like Sugarplum in the early 70's. It lasted for something like a 
month or two. If I remember correctly, it was about three struggling females in 
a rock band.

					Sincerely yours,

					Thomas Kettler
Newsgroups: alt.supermodels
From: panlilio@acs.ucalgary.ca (Victor P. Panlilio)
Subject: Re: What is with some of these models we see today?
Summary: Beautiful and Ugly Supermodels
Date: Fri, 06 Nov 92 07:14:14 GMT
Expires: Mon, 30 Nov 1992 05:00:00 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: The University of Calgary, Alberta
Keywords: fashion photography
Followup-To: alt.supermodels

In article <1992Nov4.125551.8610@ac.dal.ca> egilmour@ac.dal.ca writes:

> I would like to know what is going on with the modelling
> agencies and all of the decidedly ugly models that are appearing
> in Vogue and on the runways these days. I was always told that
> models needed certain attributes if they were to be successful.

Good looks are not enough to make a model successful. Some very
plain-looking and even 'ugly' women get to be models, apparently,
because they have a 'presence' that is captured well on camera. I
personally don't understand this phenomenon, but I can tell you
that I have photographed many 'beautiful' women who will never be
models because they do not have this 'presence' for the camera.

> undereye circles, just look at Tatjana's spread in Vogue.  I think that the 
> agencies and advertisers are catching on too late when a model is washed up.  
I think that some agencies and advertisers like to use certain
faces because they think those faces have 'stopping power.' In a
world of jaded page-turners, 'stopping power' counts for a lot.

> I think Vogue should look toward the newer faces such as Helena Christiansen
> Beverly Peele, and Niki Taylor.  And lets see more Christy
> Turlington, I think she is the best Supermodel today.

Agreed that Christy Turlington is phenomenal -- she is both very
versatile and has that 'presence' in spades! Niki Taylor needs
some time to develop that (what is she now, 18?), but she is also
maturing very nicely, IMHO. One of the things that fascinates me
about fashion photography is the chance to work with models when
they are still quite young, say, 14 or 15, and watch them blossom
into WOMEN. There's a part of me that wanted to have a kid sis,
and now that I'm 30 (I'm the youngest) I sort of get to have a
whole bunch of them, and we have lots of fun...when I go over my
slides, I'm happy to see the models smiling and laughing because
they're having fun at my shoots. I work on making shoots fun...

Speaking of which, I just came back from shooting a fashion show,
in which a male model and a female model who are friends of mine
were appearing. This was lingerie, and I find it amusing that a
lot of people think I get all hot and bothered watching a very
sexy young woman romping down the runway in a lace bra and panty
set; the truth is, I'm so busy composing and framing the shots
that I hardly even notice the fact that my friend is up there in
her underwear...and so, folks, it's just all in a day's work...

Mind you, this type of *work* is more fun than most others...
especially since I get hugged by the female models afterwards!

*chuckle*

Victor 8^)
(who has a whole bunch of good-looking adopted kid sisters!)
Newsgroups: alt.supermodels
From: panlilio@acs.ucalgary.ca (Victor P. Panlilio)
Subject: Re: Elle MacPherson causes rape?
Summary: Naomi Campbell wrote a book? Wow!
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 92 01:51:57 GMT
Expires: Mon, 30 Nov 1992 05:00:00 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: The University of Calgary, Alberta
Keywords: mistaken identity
Followup-To: alt.supermodels

In article <BxGI8H.BMt@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu> mmstahl@cayley.uwaterloo.ca (michael m. stahl) writes:

>   Try reading "The Beauty Myth" by Naomi Campbell.  I do

Pssst....hey, Michael, your *Freudian* slip is showing!

The book's author is Naomi WOLF. Naomi Campbell is one of those
poor unfortunate women who have been brainwashed into showing
their bodies so that they can make millions of dollars for the
Elite modeling agency, the ad producers, and themselves....

>enjoy fashion photography and have an appreciation of the

No doubt. 8^)

>female form, but reading this book does enlighten one on

Reading this book is likely to cause serious brain damage.

>the horrors of objectification of women, etc.  Lots of 
>interesting facts like one in 10,000 women have the body
>of a model, etc.

Okay, one in 100,000 live births is triplets; do we ban triplets?
Do we accuse women who have triplets of being discriminatory?

Get real. People like to look at the bodies of other people (and
there's no accounting for taste, BTW) because of EVOLUTION, not
because some group of capitalist leeches tainted the water!

*snicker*

Victor 8^)
(who no longer ogles circuit diagrams or hardware schematics)
From: cf542@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Julio Richard Laredo)
Newsgroups: alt.supermodels
Subject: If She Only Had A Brain
Date: 7 Nov 1992 14:05:13 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


which was the title of an articles about models in the December,
1991 issue of Mademoiselle (nice cover of Milla Jovovich).  The 
article began with a quote from Cindy Crawford, "There's a big 
difference between being stupid and being uneducated.  A lot of
models are just uneducated."  The article mentioned specifically
Claudia, Elle, Veronica Webb, Vendela, Christy, and Cindy.  

A side bar consisted of a a short quiz of widely varied questions
("What color is ecru" and "What is the French word for shoe" for
example) which were asked of the afore-mentioned models.  As 
a reference, three women of education were also asked: a 
graduate of Yale and Columbia Law School, a rabbi, and a doctor.

Elle came in first, and the Yalie, the rabbi, and the doctor
came in last.

-- 
Have straitjacket, might travel.

Xref: sparky alt.supermodels:1765 soc.men:19190 soc.women:19460
From: jsp@uts.amdahl.com (James Preston)
Newsgroups: alt.supermodels,soc.men,soc.women
Subject: Re: Elle MacPherson causes rape?
Date: 12 Nov 92 22:42:13 GMT
Reply-To: jsp@pls.amdahl.com
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA

egilmour@ac.dal.ca writes:

}I don't know how some of these people responding to the "Elle causes rape" 
}debate can say that advertising does not affect people.  

Advertising only affects you to the extent that you let it.  Advertising
cannot totally brainwash you into being a different person than you are.
Advertising can only nudge you slightly in a direction that you already
have a prediliction for going, or urge you into a slight course change
in a direction that you are already going.  Advertising cannot make you
buy something that you truly don't want unless you are an extremely weak-
willed person who's desires simply blow with the prevailing wind.  If
you think that smoking is a dirty, unhealthy thing to do, then all the
advertising in the world can't change your mind and MAKE you take up
smoking.  If advertisements for smoking convinces you that smoking is
a way to be "with it" or "cool" or whatever it is only because you
ALREADY have the desire to be "cool".  If you're in the market for a
new car, car advertising might cause you to go look at a car that you
otherwise wouldn't have checked out, or might cause you to think about
a particular car in a way that you wouldn't have otherwise thought about
it, but all the car advertising in the world cannot convince you that you
NEED a new car when you don't, in fact, need one.

So if advertising has an affect on women that "causes" them to feel
that they "need" to look like the women in the ads, it can only be
because such women already have a desire look attractive.  So if, in
fact, there is a problem with this, perhaps it would serve society
better if we look at the root of the problem, i.e. why women feel this
need in the first place.  And stop blaming the messenger.

}The majority of advertising creates an incentive to buy a product by 
}associating the achievement of feminine and masculine ideals with the 
}purchase of the product being advertised.  If 
}advertising had no effect on people, we would probably all be going around
}with excess body hair, no makeup, earth shoes and wearing jeans and t-shirts.

Funny, I don't know about where you live, but I see people like the above
ALL THE TIME.  How do you suppose it is that these people escape the evil
mind-control of advertising?

}If advertising doesn't work then I guess it must be a billion dollar 
}waste of time.  

Of course it's not a waste of time.  But it doesn't control our every
thought, either.  It simply nudges us in directions we're already going.

--James Preston
From: chrz@tellabs.com (Peter Chrzanowski)
Newsgroups: alt.supermodels,soc.women,alt.feminism,soc.men
Subject: Re: Elle MacPherson causes rape?
Date: 9 Nov 92 23:36:38 GMT
Article-I.D.: tellab5.1992Nov9.233638.29606
Organization: Tellabs, Inc.

In article <1992Nov7.171526.5511@wam.umd.edu> sfjr@wam.umd.edu (Steve Russell) writes:
> People are hurt
>by having society being programmed to expect others to live up to an ideal
>image.

People are hurt by hateful speech.  People are hurt by disturbing images,
by troubling 'entertainments', by others forcefully expressing themselves.

This is, of course, the price of living in a society that respects freedom
of speech.  There's rarely a need to protect 'nice' speech. 

Rather than raise adolescents who are so "sensitive" they'd never say
anything that would "hurt" anyone, we need to raise adolescents who
are tough enough, and who have the necessary critical analysis skills,
to thrive in a world of free expression.
From: pcg@panix.com (Paul Gallagher)
Newsgroups: alt.supermodels
Subject: Article about Naomi
Date: 9 Nov 92 18:57:22 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Unix, NYC


Naomi Campbell. (The 50 Most Beautiful People in the World 1991)
 People Weekly  v36 p74(1) July, 1991

     MODEL -- 21

     Don't hate her because she's beautiful. Hate her because of her
metabolism. "I eat what I love to eat most of the time," Campbell says with
relish. "I don't diet. My favorite foods are Kentucky Fried Chicken,
McDonald's, Raisinets, Mars bars, Snickers and deep chocolate fudge
Haagen-Dazs." Is there no justice? How dare anyone ingest so much junk,
have only 125 lbs. to drape on a 5 ft.9 1/2 in. frame and flaunt it all as
one of the most sought-after models on earth? In fact, portedly has
been sought after by JFK Jr. and Robert De Niro. At least she does her
homework for her estimated $7,000 a day. With bosom buddies and fellow
supermodels Christy Turlington and Linda Evangelista, Campbell haunts clubs
where she picks up modeling pointers from transvestites. "I think
transvestites are the ones who understand me best," she says. "I think
they're the best runway models ever." Campbell still has one more goal.
"There has never been a [major] cosmetic contract for an ethnic girl --
Hispanic, Asian or black. I want that beauty contract." If Revlon won't
take her, maybe the Colonel will.

         COPYRIGHT Time Inc. 1991

"Copyright, what's that?"
Newsgroups: alt.supermodels
From: tylee@leety.austin.ibm.com (Ty Lee)
Newsgroups: alt.supermodels
Subject: Re: Elle McPherson in the nude on an upcoming TV show.
Date: 5 Nov 92 18:53:30 GMT
Organization: IBM, Austin

In article <Bx4ur6.Cy9@cck.coventry.ac.uk> csg188@cch.coventry.ac.uk (DAVE) writes:
[Obscenity deleted]
>
>p.s. the word is 'mum' not 'mom' - can't you yanks learn to spell.
>

"Yank"s call the mother, mom, not mum, that is the British way of calling
mom.

>		BIG DAVE (ask YOUR mum why I am called that!!!)
-- 
/* The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of IBM's.         *\
 * Take care and have a nice day.                                            *
\* Ty Lee                                                                    */
Newsgroups: alt.supermodels
From: johnv@ariel.yorku.ca (John Vink)
Subject: Re: Paulina GIF
Keywords: Teddy bear picture from Playboy
Organization: York University, Toronto, Canada
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 02:05:57 GMT

Well, you have my request to find out which Playboy Paulina's teddy bear
picture was in.  Other information about how to request back issues
would also be appreciated.  I'm sure others would want this info as
well.

JAV

Newsgroups: alt.supermodels
From: colin.buckley@rose.com (colin buckley)
Subject: Do all supermodels sm
Organization: Rose Media Inc, Toronto, Ontario.
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 09:59:54 GMT
X-Gated-By: Usenet <==> RoseMail Gateway (v1.70)


Date Entered: 11-13-92 04:51
B(>I have heard it said that smoking can contribute to weight loss, or at
  >least not eating, since I suppose it relates to something being in your
  >mouth...but, smoking probably has something to do with weight on a
  >chemical/heatlh level, as well.  I wonder if that has something to do
  >with these models smoking.

It's not smoking, but nevertheless.  Chewing gum (which is also in "your
mouth") makes you hungry as the stomach is anticpating food and producing
saliva.  I'd say smoking is more like breathing, which obviously requires food
energy like everything else the body does.  But what do I know...  I've see a
few zombies that would disagree.
.----------------------------------------------------.
| Colin Buckley                                      |
| Toronto, Ontario, Canada                           |
| InterNet: colin.buckley@rose.com                   |
|                                                    |
| So Eager to Play, So Relunctant to Admit it...     |
`----------------------------------------------------'
---
   RM 2.00 : RoseNet<=>Usenet Gateway : Rose Media 416-733-2285
Newsgroups: alt.supermodels
From: panlilio@acs.ucalgary.ca (Victor P. Panlilio)
Subject: Re: Elle MacPherson causes rape?
Summary: Psychobabble for the Naive
Date: Wed, 04 Nov 92 22:40:06 GMT
Expires: Mon, 30 Nov 1992 05:00:00 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: The University of Calgary, Alberta
Keywords: Projection
Followup-To: alt.supermodels

In article <1992Nov4.055038.25481@msuinfo.cl.msu.edu> molin@ptb.cl.msu.edu (Michael Olin) writes:

>williamt@athena.Eng.Sun.COM (Dances with Drums) writes:
>
>>    She went on to say that she really disliked supermodels and what
>>they do since all guys expect the women in their lives to look like
>>the super models.  I don't feel this is the case with me or most guys

I photograph beautiful women all the time, but I don't expect the
women in my life to be as thin or as glamorous as the models are.
Get real. Most people are not as hung up on looks as others would
have us believe, and if they were, then they're bound to be quite
disappointed. Without makeup, a lot of models are quite ordinary.

>>I know, but hey, she knows it to be true because she is insecure about
>>her looks and it has to be all these media pictures' fault and therefore
>>the women who are in them and the men who buy them.  I am then held
>>responsible for her insecurity and her behaviour.

When you dislike someone you've never even met, that is usually a
sign that you probably don't like aspects of yourself that this
person makes you feel insecure about. This is called PROJECTION.

It's also known as assigning blame. (where none is deserved) A
lot of people are very good at this, and they are just miserable.

Besides, who do you think skims Cosmo, Elle, Vogue, and Bazaar?
Apart from us drooling supermodel groupies? (big silly grin here)

>Some people can't find happiness in their own lives, and won't allow
>you to be happy in yours either.  People who try to book me on guilt
>trips usually don't succeed.  They may try, but they don't have my
>permission to be successful at it...

Nicely put, old chap. I couldn't have said it better myself! Just
remember, though, that some people are hell-bent on being utterly
miserable, no matter how hard you may try to cheer them up, and I
think at some point we just have to let them be that way....

Victor 8^)

who gets high on life, just because -- oh, did I mention that I
get to go photograph at a lingerie fashion show tomorrow night?
And that a cute friend of mine finally has some respite from her
work and has agreed to pose in the nude? And that the mom of the
16-year old aspiring stage actress I photographed just saw her
daughter's pictures and is raving about how fabulous they are?

Life is good.

(And it's a good thing that I'm a very proper Catholic boy!)

*chuckle*
Newsgroups: alt.supermodels,soc.women,alt.feminism,soc.men
From: teri@sdd.hp.com (Teri Tracey)
Newsgroups: alt.supermodels,soc.women,alt.feminism,soc.men
Subject: Re: Self Appreciation (was: Re: Elle MacPherson causes rape?)
Date: 11 Nov 1992 11:11:36 -0800
Organization: Hell's Little Breakfast Nook
Distribution: usa
NNTP-Posting-Host: hp-sdd.sdd.hp.com

barry@netcom.com (Kenn Barry) writes:
> teri@sdd.hp.com (Teri Tracey) writes:
>
>>Men are
>>automatically given credibility whereas women are asked to demonstrate
>>capability.  Not quite so much any more these days, and this is a
>>change many of us would like to see, but it's really ingrained.
>	This does not follow from your earlier statement, and I don't
>think it's true. There is no "automatic credibility" for men. 

I disagree, so let's agree to disagree, and go on.  There's nothing
worse than two people who will never change their minds going at it
for hundreds of messages.  I threw the comment out for people to think
about.

>	I think what he's talking about is "attitude"; that's the word
>he used. And I agree that little boys are instilled with more of this
>"attitude" than little girls, on average. 

That's what I'm saying.  My response was also directed to some other
people who were definitely sending this kind of message.

And let me say for the record that I believe men are oppressed too, OK?  
However, women are oppressed *more*.  

Teri Tracey              "When people are free to do as they like, they
 San Diego, CA            generally imitate each other."                   
  teri@sdd.hp.com  
=============================================================================
Newsgroups: alt.supermodels,soc.women,alt.feminism,soc.men
From: farthing@leland.Stanford.EDU (ljf)
Subject: Re: Elle MacPherson causes rape?
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 92 19:26:50 GMT

In article <1992Nov7.171526.5511@wam.umd.edu> sfjr@wam.umd.edu (Steve Russell) writes:
>One problem: Cars are inanimate objects that cant feel hurt.  Women are thinkingfeeling human beings who are psychologically hurt being USED like a hunk of
>metal to sell a product.  Women may be partially responsible for their mental
>health in this matter as suggested by the person who claimed it was all
>a self-esteem problem.  Okay.  By the same line of reasoning I cant blaim
>someone who hurts me by punching me in my mouth.  Afterall, it is partially
>my responsibility for not blocking the blow and striking back.  If Im not
>in good enough shape to ward off attack I guess it is still my fault.
>I could have had let other things I value in my life go while I worked out
>to prepare for being attacked.  Why should I blame the person who struck
>me?  Enough of the sarcasm.  Do you see what Im saying.  People are hurt
>by having society being programmed to expect others to live up to an ideal
>image.  Just because someone may have the capacity to help themselves in
>the face of an injustice doesnt make the injustice less of an injustice.

Some good points here.  (I don't agree with the reasoning of the punch
in the mouth, but...)

What we are seeing is more men being affected by this need to be
physically perfect too.  Men getting plastic surgery to "correct"
aging, to give them muscular pecs and calves, boys and young men
dieting and some becoming anorexic, men taking steriods to pump up
their muscles, men starting to shave off "ugly" body hair, men having
hair transplants.  I'm sure some people think turn about is fair play,
but I don't want men saddled with these unreal expectations.  I don't
want to see a very skinny 12 year old boy talk about how fat he is.

Newsgroups: alt.supermodels,soc.women,alt.feminism,soc.men