HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic

For noring@netcom.com Jon Noring at Netcom - Online Communication Services  
on tracing his ancestry:
You might check with the local Morman church.  They are very experienced in
geneology and may have people willing to help you in the actual tracing.
They would certainly be willing to give you pointers.
      
   ----------------------------------------------------------------------
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  | Firmware - 859x Product line      | Telnet: 794-4442                 |
  | HP Microwave Instrument Division  | AT&T: (707) 794-4442             |
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From: ksand@apple.com (Kent Sandvik (Hacker))
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Making jobs (was: nationalism, Finns, Chinese, etc.)
Date: 20 Aug 92 20:01:56 GMT
Followup-To: soc.culture.nordic
Organization: Apple

In article <1992Aug19.150214.2792@infolog.se>, ulf@gbg.infolog.se (Ulf
Sundin) wrote:
> Another related aspect is that by increasing immigration,
> the home market will grow, which will probably stimulate the national
> economy to grow. This will then, in the long run, mean that more jobs
> will be needed.

It depends on the *quality* of immigrants. I live here in California,
and we have a huge problem with the issue of illegal immigration from
Mexico. Most of the immigrants don't have any educational or professional
skills, and you see people sitting on trucks driving to the huge farms
every morning around Fresno. Anyway, they also need health care and 
social support, and it's costing the state *a lot*, especially when
these workers are not paying any taxes due to their legal status
in this country (and they are mostly without jobs anyway).

In other words, a human tragedy, both those who live here suffer,
as well as those who believed they could create a better situation
for their families by moving here.

It is true that qualified immigrants, especially when there's a need
for work force will stimulate the economy a lot. However during 
bad times it's the other way around. I don't see a good solution
to this until Mexico will grow as a nation so it could handle it's
people. I think this is the case with Finland as well, emigration
to Sweden will not solve the problems of Finland. I guess I speak
with a double tongue, because I immigrated from Finland 1984. Why?
No jobs for computer hackers.

Cheers,
Kent

---
"Read my lips... No Willie Horton..."
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: exjtmm@tts.lth.se (Thommy M. Malmstr|m)
Subject: Re: Unnecessary polluation
Organization: Communication Systems, Lund Institute of Technology, Sweden
	<jittlov.715338714@gumby.cs.caltech.edu>
Date: 1 Sep 92 13:59:16

>>>>> "MJ" == Mike Jittlov <jittlov@gumby.cs.caltech.edu> writes:

MJ> all of us a maximum daily dosage.  Here in Los Angeles, pollution is
MJ> our is our most important product!  8P  (smiley throwing up)

Can you buy canned air from LA? ;-)

/Thommy M.


--
Thommy M. MALMSTR\M    |  o ,__Q  |  Lund Institute of Technology
K{mn{rsv{gen 3 A:202   |  \-\_<,  |  Dept. of Communication Systems
S-226 46 LUND, SWEDEN  | (*)/'(*) |  Box 118, S-221 00 LUND, SWEDEN
+46-(0)46 13 21 78     |~~~~~~~~~~|  Tfn:+46-46 10 90 08, Fax:+46-46 14 58 23
From: steinly@topaz.ucsc.edu (Steinn Sigurdsson)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Colonization (was: Immigrants and employment)
Date: 29 Aug 92 14:45:14
Organization: Lick Observatory/UCO
	<1992Aug25.000817.5092@corax.udac.uu.se> <13819@chalmers.se>
NNTP-Posting-Host: topaz.ucsc.edu
In-reply-to: d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se's message of 29 Aug 92 17:43:48 GMT

In article <13819@chalmers.se> d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se (Bertil Jonell) writes:

   In article <1992Aug25.000817.5092@corax.udac.uu.se> andersa@Riga.DoCS.UU.SE (Anders Andersson) writes:
   >And in those days, weren't there already Swedish
   >settlers along the eastern shores of the Baltic Sea, settlers
   >who may have needed christening just as well?

     'needed christening'?! Frankly, the only good point I can see about the
   christening of Scandinavia etc is that it prevented any German or Lithuanian
   duke from instigating a crusade against the 'hethen northeners'.

Why bother, the unheathen northerners were quite willing to do the
dirty themselves...

an arguably real benefit of christianity was the promotion
of near universal literacy, at least in Iceland, through some
cute literal interpretation of doctrine, that bit at least worked out
nicely...

*  Steinn Sigurdsson   			Lick Observatory      	*
* steinly@helios.ucsc.edu		"standard disclaimer"  	*
*  Some people think they're really clever			*
*  Smash your head against the wall            Specials, 1979	* 

Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: kristian@siri.unit.no (Kristian Martinsen)
Subject: More about meat
Summary: Eat meat
Keywords: Meat
Organization: University of Trondheim
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 92 18:19:29 GMT

I think it's savagely to eat meat from pigs and cows! Those
warm-blooded intelligente animals is almost like humans. Just look at
how they care for their children, and how the speak to eachother! 
And so cute they all are!

Eat seafood. MINKE WHALE for example! :-)


Kristian

Big Norwegians needs big food!
From: canders@isr.harvard.edu (Carl E. Anderson)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Tyr,Odin,Thor,Frey?
Keywords: weekdays
Date: 31 Aug 92 18:27:23 GMT
Organization: Harvard University, Cambridge, MA

In article <13818@chalmers.se> d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se (Bertil Jonell) writes:
>  How about the conflict when a standard celtic (Freya&Co have always seemed
>to handle more celtic 'subjects' than the Aesir to me) religion was replaced
>with the Aesir in Scandinavia (and bordering areas). Conflicts can (and do)
>happen inside a culture, especially when some people are trying to push a 
>new religion.

	Celtic!?  *Celtic*?  "Freyja & Co" were fertility deities.  The
Celts and lots of other cultures have fertility deities.  I would hardly
call the Vanir "celtic".
	The "War between the Aesir and the Vanir" _may_ be a vaguely
recalled memory of some interaction/conflict between a argicultural
religion and a non-agricultural religion, but it has nothing to do with
Celts.

Cheers,
Carl

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carl Edlund Anderson	            	"Hefi ek ok aldri sva reitt vapn
canders@isr.harvard.edu			at manni at eigi hafi vidh kommit."
OR
anderso2@husc.harvard.edu			- Skarphedhinn Njalsson 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: karttu@mits.mdata.fi (Antti Karttunen)
Subject: Koirankuonolaiset (was Re: Koerkoonlased)
Organization: MITS, Helsinki, Finland
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 20:37:00 GMT

In article <1992Aug28.224914.14430@midway.uchicago.edu> deb5@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>	Has anyone out there heard of Koerkoonlased?  The Funk and Wagnall's
>Dictionary of Folklore describes them as a race of dog-men from Estonian
>folklore, but I have been unable to find anything more about them.  I was
>particularly wondering if there was a Finnish version of these creatures
>(I suppose the word would be something like *koirakuonilaiset).

They are called 'koirankuonolaiset' in Finnish. ('koira' = 'dog', 'kuono' =
'muzzle'.) Well, I found it even from my dictionary: 'koirankuonolainen'
= 1 (myt) cynocephal.us (pl -i) 2 (vernacular, derogatory) wild Asian,
Kalmuck.
My encyclopedia says:
  "Koirankuonolaiset, dog-headed humans. Many European nations have tales
about them, supposed to be living at the edge of the known world." 

Hmm, maybe they have something to do with "Hellusioses et Oxionas"
who have human face and features, but the arms and body of the wild
animal. (They are mentioned by Roman historian Cornelius Tacitus in his
treatise 'Germania', just after writing about 'Fennes'.)

Well, obviously cynocephali and hellusioses got their body parts mixed
up...

>And while
>we're at it, what do the Finns (or Estonians) call the helpful little nisse
>(aka. brownie, bwcca, Kobold, Heinzelmaennchen, kaboutje, etc.)?

They are called 'tonttu' in Finnish ('tomtan' in Swedish, check the other
thread in this group), e.g. joulutonttu, saunatonttu, riihitonttu, whatever.

>	Daniel "Da" von Brighoff (deb5@midway.uchicago.edu)

-- 
Antti Karttunen       --  $B%"%s%C%F%#!!%+%k%C%H%%%M%s(J  (et{ty|t|n)
karttu@mits.mdata.fi  --  Apatheist, although not particularly proud of it.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: taipale@kiloapo.tele.nokia.fi (Pekka J Taipale)
Subject: Re: Greenland claiming residence of Santa Claus
Organization: Finns for Global Warming
	<1992Aug25.131441.3338@jyu.fi> <1992Aug25.230720.25715@news.uit.no>
	<1992Aug27.083633.2288@ousrvr.oulu.fi>
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 12:18:56 GMT

In article <1992Aug27.083633.2288@ousrvr.oulu.fi> dfo@tko.vtt.fi (Foxvog Douglas) writes:
>If you read the article, you would have learned that this is just his 
>post office box.  I explained that his residence in Korvatunturi was
>remote from any roads (and he doesn't need a runway for "flying
>reindeer").

Santa may need no runway, but he does need a special permit from the
aviation administration, however.  Korvatunturi is right beside
Russian border, and any flight activity there will be noted by the
Soviet/Russian air defence and cause problems.

Or maybe Santa is using Stealth Reindeer nowadays? ;-)

Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: euafri@eua.ericsson.se (Fredrik.Ostman)
Subject: Re: Norwegians shot Swedish bear
Organization: Ellemtel Telecom Systems Labs, Stockholm, Sweden
Distribution: soc
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 15:59:38 GMT

tomas_e@LINK.Physchem.KTH.SE (Tomas Eriksson) writes:
>etxmow@garboc34.ericsson.se (Mats Winberg) writes:

>>      NOrwegian hunters have killed a bear

>First the seals and now this... I wonder what His Majesty King Carl XVI 
>Gustav will say on the matter. :-) (Possibly nothing, since he does a 
>lot of hunting himself (mainly moose/elk/{lg).)

...and Swedish kings have the habit of hunting bear with their bare hands,
preferably near the Norwegian border (-:E
--
  ______                     _~
 (_/_ _  _  _/) _  . /)     / ) , _/)     _
__/ _/(_(/_(/__/(_/_/Z_    (_/_/)_/__/))_(I_/)_
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: hberg@polisci.umn.edu (Bob Hammarberg)
Subject: Re: Santa Poll - informal (Re: Greenland claiming residence of Santa Claus)
Organization: Department of Political Science, University of Minnesota
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 20:35:17 GMT

You're all wrong.  Santa Claus emigrated to the US long ago (as an economic 
refugee).  He lives in southern Indiana (ugh!) in (ta dah!) Santa Claus, IN 
47579, USA.

He has also become a Republican, drives an Oldsmobile, voted for Reagan and 
Bush, loves Dan Quayle (the former Senator from Indiana), believes in family 
values, and does not believe in giving handouts to wellfare cheats.

(he probably never inhaled, neither!)
From: andersa@Riga.DoCS.UU.SE (Anders Andersson)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Computerized news feeds (was: Vattenfestivalen)
Date: 30 Aug 92 21:36:54 GMT
Organization: Uppsala University, Sweden

In article <1992Aug30.144106@IASTATE.EDU>, bamse@IASTATE.EDU (Sten M Thernelius) writes:
>    P.S.  Rakar ngn veta om det finns ngt satt att fa nyheter fran 
>          Sverige over datorn?     

While the technical means to distribute news from Sweden on a regular
basis probably exists (or at least it could be fairly easily arranged),
I assume copyright stands in the way of actually doing so.  That's why
you don't see a newsgroup soc.culture.nordic.news feeding you copies of
for instance the news pages of the TeleText (?) services of the Nordic
TV channels, I think (assuming that's the kind of service you ask for).

If such a service existed, i.e. providing news free of charge and for
unlimited distribution, I'd also like to hear about it.
--
Anders Andersson, Dept. of Computer Systems, Uppsala University
Paper Mail: Box 520, S-751 20 UPPSALA, Sweden
Phone: +46 18 183170   EMail: andersa@DoCS.UU.SE
From: d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se (Bertil Jonell)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Tyr,Odin,Thor,Frey?
Keywords: weekdays
Date: 2 Sep 92 16:15:53 GMT
Organization: Chalmers University of Technology

In article <1992Aug31.182723.29128@burrhus.harvard.edu> canders@isr.harvard.edu (Carl E. Anderson) writes:
>	Celtic!?  *Celtic*?  "Freyja & Co" were fertility deities.  The
>Celts and lots of other cultures have fertility deities.  I would hardly
>call the Vanir "celtic".

  Well, my theory was put together from two pieces of information: The first
is that there *has* been jokers with horned helmets running around up here,
but during the bronze age, not during the viking age.
  The second is the preponderance of jokers with horns on their heads running
around in celtic mythology and art.
  This led me to theorize that the religion around here during the bronze 
age had been somewhat close to celtic, and since it wasn't celtic during
the viking age, somebody had to have invented a new religion (Asatro) to
replace the old one except for some still lingering traces like the Vanir and
the statuette of Tor(?) wearing a horned helmet that was found in Birka(?).

>Carl

-bertil-
--
"It can be shown that for any nutty theory, beyond-the-fringe political view or
 strange religion there exists a proponent on the Net. The proof is left as an
 exercise for your kill-file."
"This is the famous Hasan B Mutlu-trigger, insert it in your .sig file today!"
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: mimir@milton.u.washington.edu (Al Billings)
Subject: Re: Tyr,Odin,Thor,Frey?
Keywords: weekdays
Organization: The Friends of Loki Society
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1992 19:07:31 GMT

In article <13818@chalmers.se> d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se (Bertil Jonell) writes:
>
>  How about the conflict when a standard celtic (Freya&Co have always seemed
>to handle more celtic 'subjects' than the Aesir to me) religion was replaced
>with the Aesir in Scandinavia (and bordering areas). Conflicts can (and do)
>happen inside a culture, especially when some people are trying to push a 
>new religion.

 That is just my point. It is not believed anymore that the two families
of gods come from two seperate people. The Wanes were not from one and the
Aesir were not from another. They were part of the beliefs of the same
invaders, not a set of invaders and already present locals. From what I
recall from my readings, there are too many parallels with other
Indo-European cultures which show the Wanes to not be unique in their roles.

Wassail,
Al Billings

                           mimir@u.washington.edu
    /\  /\       +----------------------------------------+
   /__\/__\      | "I know that I hung on the windy tree  |          |
  /\  /\  /\     |  all of nights nine, wounded by Gar,   |          |
 /__\/__\/__\    |   given to Odhinn, myself to myself,   |          |
    /\  /\       | upon that tree of which none can tell  |          |
   /__\/__\      |      from what root it rises."         |    ______|______
                 +----------------------------------------+

Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: cindy@solan10.solan.unit.no (Cynthia Kandolf)
Subject: Re: Santa Poll - informal (Re: Greenland claiming residence of Santa Claus)
Organization: /home/ludviga/cindy/.organization
	<1992Aug25.063829.695@neptune.inf.ethz.ch>
	<1992Aug25.173753.1515@gvl.unisys.com>
	<1992Aug25.191343.25909@ludd.luth.se>
Date: 26 Aug 92 22:32:42

Obviously, Santa lives at the North Pole.  The North Pole belongs to
no country.  If Santa did live in Finland, Greenland, or any of the
other places that have been brought up, that would be playing
favorites, and as we all know, Santa would _never_ play favorites.

-Cindy Kandolf
 cindy@solan.unit.no
 Trondheim, Norway
From: tedrick@whistle.Berkeley.EDU (Tom Tedrick)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Norway claiming NY (too late)
Date: 31 Aug 1992 12:56:55 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: whistle.berkeley.edu
Keywords: Santa

<Well, what I had in mind was you could have 1 Oslo for 1 New York.

OK, it's a deal :-)

<Just put Oslo wherever you want, they won't stop complainting
<anywhere...

<Find a rainy place for Bergen.

It's been 30 years since I was in Bergen or Oslo, but I remember them
as very pleasant cities. Have things really changed so much? 

Anyway, New York is the closest thing I've seen to Hell on earth,
so I can't imagine I will get the worst of the deal :-)

<+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
<| Jan Arne Fagertun, Research Engineer, SINTEF Division Thermodynamics|
<| E-mail: Jan.A.Fagertun@termo.unit.no                                |
<| Phone : +47 7 596890                            Fax  : +47 7 944513 |
<| Mail  : SINTEF/Varmeteknikk, 7034 Trondheim, NEXT CAPITAL of Norway |
<+---------------------------------------------------------------------+

Now, Trondheim I remember as extremely beautiful. Is there still
a tram that takes you to a restaurant at the top of a mountain
where you get a spectacular view of the city and the fjord?

(hope my memory isn't playing tricks on me and I'm imagining all this :-)
From: ksand@apple.com (Kent Sandvik (Hacker))
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Another Finnish Question
Date: 20 Aug 92 20:04:15 GMT
Followup-To: soc.culture.nordic
Organization: Apple

In article <1992Aug17.140037.10862@nntp.hut.fi>, ovr@vipunen.hut.fi
(Otto-Ville Ronkainen) wrote:
> Turunmaa/]boland refers only to to the archipelago W-SW-S of Turku (with a
> Swedish-speaking majority), whereas Varsinais-Suomi/Egentliga Finland is
> Turun ja Porin l{{ni/]bo och Bj|rneborgs l{n - Satakunta/Satakunda ie. 
> rougly the area south of the line Uusikaupunki-Loimaa and west of the 

Speaking about Turunmaa, I could buy that cheese from most food stores
here in California, surprise, surprise. Hard to find Australian cheese,
for instance, surprise, surprise.

Cheers,
Kent
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: ryyti@jyu.fi (Jarmo Ryyti)
Subject: Re: Gourmand (Was: Greenland claiming residence of Santa Claus)
Organization: University of Jyvaskyla, Finland
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 12:11:31 GMT

In article <1992Aug27.111217.20095@ugle.unit.no> jafitv@termo.unit.no (Jan Arne Fagertun) writes:
>In article <1992Aug27.062336.14702@jyu.fi>, ryyti@jyu.fi (Jarmo Ryyti) writes:
>|> Svein - Ivar , do you know if whale meat is exported to Finland.
>|> I would like to eat one.
>|> Jarmo
>|> 
>--
>
>
>Jarmo, you know that the whale is a large animal ?
>If you "would like to eat one", I think you must be a gourmand.
>(What about Guiness' book ... )
>
>
Yes, Jan Arne, but like Svein - Ivar says it keeps a doctor away, especially if
it is live...
Jarmo



Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: jafitv@termo.unit.no (Jan Arne Fagertun)
Subject: Re: Norway claiming NY (too late)
Keywords: Santa
Reply-To: jafitv@termo.unit.no (Jan Arne Fagertun)
Organization: SINTEF, Norwegian Institute of Technology
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 92 06:58:40 GMT

In article <1992Aug31.170357.4881@athena.mit.edu>, raustein@athena.mit.edu (Yngve Koehler Raustein) writes:
|> 
|> In article <17t4unINN5j5@agate.berkeley.edu>, tedrick@whistle.Berkeley.EDU (Tom Tedrick) writes:
|> |> 
|> |> Now, Trondheim I remember as extremely beautiful. Is there still
|> |> a tram that takes you to a restaurant at the top of a mountain
|> |> where you get a spectacular view of the city and the fjord?
|> 
|> 'Fraid that beautiful city is Bergen, my home town.:-)


You're kidding. He said "extremely beautiful" - remember ?


|> 
|> Trondheim is the city with the cathedral (which is not all it's cracked
|> up to be.) 
|> 
|> Yngve
|> 
|> -- 

+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Jan Arne Fagertun, Research Engineer, SINTEF Division Thermodynamics|
| E-mail: Jan.A.Fagertun@termo.unit.no                                |
| Phone : +47 7 596890                            Fax  : +47 7 944513 |
| Mail  : SINTEF/Varmeteknikk, 7034 Trondheim, Norway                 |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: dfo@tko.vtt.fi (Foxvog Douglas)
Subject: Re: Greenland claiming residence of Santa Claus
Organization: VTT
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 08:36:33 GMT

In article <1992Aug25.230720.25715@news.uit.no> sveini@mack.uit.no (Svein-Ivar Lillehaug) writes:
>In article <1992Aug25.131441.3338@jyu.fi> ryyti@jyu.fi (Jarmo Ryyti) writes:
>>
>>:   "Legend has it that he lives in a castle of ice in Greenland, close to
>>: the North Pole.  He still does.  But now we know that Santa's Post
>>: Office is to be found in Nuuk, Greenland," said a first-day cover.

>> The correct address for Santa Claus is:

>> 	Santa Claus  [or St. Nick, Father Christmas, ... in any language]
>> 	Rovaniemi 99999
>> 	Finland

>Folks, you are all screwed up. Both Nuuk and Rovaniemi are to the south
>of the Arctic Circle. Why on earth would Julenissen move that far south?

If you read the article, you would have learned that this is just his 
post office box.  I explained that his residence in Korvatunturi was
remote from any roads (and he doesn't need a runway for "flying
reindeer").  I don't know the mechanism of communication between the 
post office and Korvatunturi (which is well north of the Arctic
Circle).

>/ Svein-Ivar

-- 
doug foxvog     
dfo@tko.vtt.fi   
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: pbaker@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Paula C Baker)
Subject: Travel to Helsinki-Stockholm
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 15:01:20 GMT

I plan to attend an academic conference on N. American Studies in Helsinki
starting September 5, travel by train a couple days later to Turku, and then
cross by ferry to Stockholm about September 12.  Does anyone have good tips
on special events in those places during those times (Sept. 5-17)?  I'm 
interested in material culture, history, folklore.  My last visit to Skansen
in Stockholm was terrific.  

I would also appreciate advice on the best and cheapest way to get from
Helsinki airport to the University and from Helsinki to Turku (train or bus?) 
etc.  Finally, what modest gifts might be most appreciated by the Finnish and
Swedish families with whom I plan to stay?

Thanks for your help.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: sutton@tnclus.tele.nokia.fi
Subject: Hunting (was: Norwegians shot Swedish bear)
Organization: Nokia Telecommunications.
Distribution: soc
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 13:22:18 GMT


In article <1992Aug31.092239.6321@ugle.unit.no>, jafitv@termo.unit.no (Jan Arne Fagertun) writes:
> In article <etxmow.715246262@garboc34>, etxmow@garboc34.ericsson.se (Mats Winberg) writes:
> |> 
> |> NOrwegian hunters have killed a bear that crossed the border from
> |> Sweden, despite swedish pleas not to kill her. The bear was part...
> 
> 
> Hunting of bear, wolf and others, is only allowed when there is strong
> evidence the animals keep hunting animals like sheep, horses or cows,
> and even then it's very restricted.


This departs somewhat from the thread of bear killing, but I was recently
reading an article about reindeer (poro) herders in Lappland that mentioned
hunting to protect the herds.   The interviewer inquired if the herder 
supports hunting of dangerous animals, like bears and wolves, because of the
threat to the reindeer.  He replied no, that he loses very few animals to 
them; instead, the greatest killer was cars!   (This is because the
reindeer are raised on open land, they roam freely across the North.)

I found his observation very interesting, i.e. killing animals to
protect animals is nonsensical because the greatest slaughterer is
us.


Keith