HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: CLARK@EVMSVMS.BITNET
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Subject: RE: Uncl: RE: Uncl: B/Hillary Clinton
Date: 7 Jan 93 17:41:00 GMT
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>From Robert
>I appreciate Val's position, however, humanity spends considerable time
>needlessly chasing its tail.  The answers to life's little problems have
>been provided, we just need the faith to use them.

I agree - although the answer isn't in some book - the answer isn't something
we hammer in stone and guard and protect and follow with full blinders on.


"The little fish was swimming and swimming and finally came upon the great
big fish.

'Could you tell me, please, how to get to the ocean?'

'Why, you're _in_ it - it's all around you!'

'This? No, this is just water - I'm looking for the ocean.'

And the little fish swam away disappointed, looking for the ocean."


                -DeMello.
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Original_To:  POL
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Date:         Fri, 8 Jan 1993 11:29:00 EST
From:         linda <SABOE@VUVAXCOM.BITNET>
Subject:      the foam rises early in the east

HAPPY HAPPY FRIDAY.....

this is the first full week of work since the holidays. it was also an
incredible ordeal to try and get back into the groove of actually showing up
each day to collect my paltry pay.

ah well....

someone requested an early beer countdown because they were so good. hey,
you don't need an excuse! i would've started sooner but i had a meeting this
morning.

so, sychronize those watches....friday beer countdown has now commenced.


-linda
From: dreitman@oregon.uoregon.edu (Daniel R. Reitman, Attorney to Be)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Subject: Re:      Kevorkian Sets Sights on Ohio
Date: 7 Jan 1993 14:50 PST
Organization: University of Oregon
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: oregon.uoregon.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    

In article <POLITICS%93010711231361@OHSTVMA.ACS.OHIO-STATE.EDU>,     
    Evelyn Duncan <R3EJD@AKRONVM.BITNET> writes...
>I read in the Beacon Journal this morning that Dr. Death himself is
>coming to Ohio because the state legislature has permitted assisted
>suicide.

Here's what I found when I decided to research the issue:

"Nothing in this chapter condones, authorizes, or approves of mercy killing,
assisted suicide, or euthanasia."  Ohio Rev. Code Ann. section 2133.12(D)
(Anderson Supp. 1991) (refers to Ohio Rev. Code Ann. ch. 2133, the Modified
Uniform Rights of the Terminally Ill Act).  As of December 31, 1991, this was
the law of Ohio.  What the law does do is state that death from execution of a
living will is neighter homicide nor suicide.  Ohio Rev. Code Ann. section
2133.12(A) (Anderson Supp. 1991).

I also found that a mutual suicide pact is a complete defense to any crime by a
survivor.  State v. Sage, 31 Ohio St. 3d 173, 510 N.E.2d 343 (1987).  This
presumably does not apply to Kevorkian cases.

							Dan, ad nauseum
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Date:         Fri, 8 Jan 1993 07:41:36 EST
From:         K=A*T <MEC038@UKCC.UKY.EDU>
Subject:      RE: Visit Colorado - #2

On Thu, 7 Jan 1993 21:51:00 EDT <CLARK@EVMSVMS> said:

>>All admendment 2 was passed for was to deny homosexuals a minority status.

>Wrong.  Amendment 2 denied Coloradians the right to officially recognize
>sexual preference as a protected minority, if they ever decided to do so
>in the future.  It is a _prohibitive_ amendment - and on that basis alone
>is objectionable.

So what was "wrong" about that?  I admit the wording is a bit
different and the two might not be identical (logically) but
for all practical purposes, they say the same thing.

>-T.

--KAT
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Date:         Fri, 8 Jan 1993 10:50:48 EST
From:         todd pukanecz <CCCS@VTVM1.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Uncl: Re: Uncl: Re: Addiction as Disease

>From Robert
>All choices, even yours, are the product of discrimination.  You had

Right, fine.  If you consider the decision to surface for air rather than
drown underwater a choice, you're welcome to that unenlightened view.

>While we're here, since you chose life for yourself do you support the
>same for the unborn?
>
This has nothing to do with anything.

>problems is prevention of exposure.  Now in these cases I grant that
>could be a little difficult, but in addiction problems the prevention
>is no more complicated than making a *CHOICE*.
>
This statement underscores Robert's total lack of understanding of
the situation.  Was it Robert who complained about fluoridated water?
The answer is simple;  don't drink.  This is, of course, a ridiculous
statement, since humans can't survive without water.  From a rehab
standpoint, the advice of "just stop taking the drug" is just as
ridiculous, since there are many more factors involved than the
addict's choices and free will.

>From Toddddddddddddddddddddddddddd
>And what message would that be?  I personally found great solace in the

To which Robert replied without answering the question.  What message
does recognizing addiction as a medical problem send?  That the addict
is a victim?  Hardly.  Addiction as disease is accepted in leading
circles and I know of no health care professional, psychological
counselor, or addict who considers the addict a victim free of blame.

If you don't want to play, then I'll just take my brain and go home.
    todddddddddd

=========== Wake up John Doe.  You're the hope of the world! ===========
--------     /^^\    ---- Todd Pukanecz ----   ----  CCCS@VTVM1  ----
-----      /      >   --- Ag. Econ. DPL --- "LSD has been known to cause
---  /\_ / @       \   -- Virginia Tech --   psychotic reactions in those
-  /________________>   - Blacksburg VA -    who don't use it." - TL
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Date:         Mon, 4 Jan 1993 03:22:30 -0600
From:         "VALENTINE M. SMITH" <CDELL@UMKCVAX1.BITNET>
Subject:      Responses to Mideur-L posts on the Balkans, #5 of 8
Comments: To: mideur-l@ubvm.bitnet, val-l@ucf1vm.bitnet, jwales@iubvm.bitnet,
          olsenj@stolaf.edu, kousen@rayleigh.res.utc.com, klur@maristb.bitnet,
          srdjan%cathy@kri.fer.yu

Date: 31 Dec 1992 10:43:42 -0500 (EST)
From: James Sheldon <U7636JI@DOES1.BITNET>
Subject: RE: More books and films

> Actually, the reason many UN efforts have been unsuccessful is the
> fact that the deployed military elements operate under constraints
> more akin to the police paradigm than the military one.  In most
> instances, they've specifically been prohibited from taking any
> offensive action, and almost no defensive action.  The situation in
> Bosnia/Serbia/etc. is markedly distinct from that in Somalia.  T he
> Serb "chetniks" are a bonafide military force with significant
> firepower who have a history of fighting successfully as
> guerrillas/partisans.  As I noted in a previous reply on this issue,
> most military experts, including the former UN Force commanding
> general from Canada, have assessed the manpower requirements to
> successfully execute a military operation in Bosnia at a level so
> high that most UN members would find the costs, political and
> economic, to be unacceptable.

I tend to concur with Mr. Sheldon about his analysis. I would add
that this situation is unlike either Somalia OR Desert Storm, and
that General McKenzie's intial estimate of 100,000 troops to bring
Serbia to the negotiating table is too low, I think more like 250,000
to 300,000, and going beyond the "police paradigm" that has
traditionally been the UN's role by serious military actions, which I
do not believe many of the 180 nations in the UN can genuinely
support, from both a practical, cost and political point of view. I
also concur that the "chetniks" are much more military, and
considerably less "criminal gang," than the "forces" in play in
Somalia.

> The force size we're talking about would be on a par with that
> deployed for Desert Storm and fighting on terrain significantly more
> difficult to negotiate than the Iraq/Kuwait desert.  If the full
> miltary option were adopted, would the UN have the fortitude to hold
> Serbian population centers as hostages or targets of air strikes,
> etc.?

I think the answer to your question is "No." I also think that, as I
said previously, that few have the "long view" about this matter -
what are the consequences of a full-scale military intervention in
ex-Yugoslavia? I maintain that very few have very solid answers to
this complex question.

> Uncle Ernie

VMS
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Date:         Thu, 7 Jan 1993 17:15:03 EST
From:         K=A*T <MEC038@UKCC.UKY.EDU>
Subject:      RE: Uncl: Re: Uncl: Re: Addiction as Disease

On Thu, 7 Jan 1993 14:07:29 EST Evelyn Duncan said:

>Kevorkian's license to practice medicine was revoked.

>Evelyn

But he is still a Doctor.

--KAT
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Date:         Fri, 8 Jan 1993 09:27:15 -0500
From:         Andrew Allen <E7L8ALL@TOWSONVX.BITNET>
Subject: Re: freedom from discrimination

>  a person's color (or sex, or whatever) should not be the basis of
>discrimination by the law. aa does discriminate on those things, and
>so i am against it. what ever happened to the ideal of a color-blind
>legal system?

I think the same thing that happened to the idea of a color-blind
society. A color-blind legal system makes no sense in a society
where there is inequity based upon color.


>rtf

-other Andy
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Date:         Thu, 7 Jan 1993 10:18:09 -0400
From:         The Integral Differential <DEMON@DESIRE.WRIGHT.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Brett's dubious propositions
Comments: To: POLITICS@OHSTVMA.ACS.OHIO-STATE.EDU

>Brett,
>
>>  Which is why hate crimes will always (hopefully) be struck down.  You
>>can't pove what people are thinking.
>
>Brett chooses to ignore a lengthy exchange between me and Joe
>and Andy. (Me on the one hand, Andy and Joe on the other.)

        This is why "thought crimes" are a bad idea.  Jamie *thinks* he knows
what my motivation is/was.  His being very wide of the mark is ample reason to
discard all such crimes that rely on *pretending to know* what the person was
thinking when they performed a certain action.

>A great many convictions depend on proving what people are
>thinking. Are you, Brett, willing to say that all such convictions
>result from laws which should be struck down?

        Like...?  Crimes need *proof*.  What exactly does proof of thought
constitute?

>A separate issue:
>
>> You're missing the point.  Quotas were supposed to enable minorities
>> proportional access.  According to an earlier post, black
>> professionals still have a low (2.2%) participation rate in
>> some professions.
>
>As it stands, this is a pretty silly argument.
>Laws against murder were supposed to stop people from being
>killed. But in some places murder is still a very serious
>problem.

        The laws against murder are reactive.  Quota laws are supposed to be
proactive.

>It obviously does not follow that murder laws are ineffectual,
>nor that they ought to be scrapped.

        Some would argue that since capital punishment hasn't put a noticeable
dent in murder rates, that either the process should be abolished or made more
efficient (fewer appeals, etc.).

>> I'm not an employer.  But if I was...
>
>> Say I had a business in a 90% black area.  Yet the quotas say I "must"
>> employ at least 10% blacks....  If I was racist, that would enable
>> me to *only hire 10% blacks, even though the area I live in has a
>> much greater proportion of blacks living there.  The government
>> mandated system enables racists to use quotas as a shield.
>
>That, clearly, would be a silly quota law.

        That is the kind we have.

>Let's see if Brett can cite an example of such a law. Let's
>see if he can give one example of a "government mandated
>system" that works that way.
>Jamie

        Every current law that has a numerical quota.

Brett'
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Date:         Mon, 11 Jan 1993 18:25:08 MET
From:         Grzegorz Albinowski <caius@II.UJ.EDU.PL>
Organization: Institute of Computer Science, Jagellonian University Cracow
Subject:      cheap money
Comments: To: POLITICS@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu
              at Jan 7, 93 8:23 pm

Stephan Melin pisze:
>> Well germany is a bit different, although the heads of our central bank are
>> appointed by the government, once they are in office they are completely
>> independent from the government. These people keep their positions until they
>> retire. The same system is used for the members of the supreme court in many
>> countries.
>> This led to the rather paradox situation, that the central bank did exactly
>> the opposite of what the government liked them to do:
>> In 1992 the government wanted to lower the interest rates to speed up (well
>> "start up" would be more appropiate) the economic recovery of the east german

>> industry - cheap money is good for investors.

No, it is not. Artificially cheap money, which is the case in Germany, is only
a FALSE SIGNAL. They try to supply what the customers want to buy, at the price
the customes want to pay. And, suddenly, it apears, they have been fooled
by the artificial interest rates.

The Bundesbank was known for its wise monetary policy in the past. But the
current one will cause much trouble in the German economy. It seems that Bonn
tries to speed up what is impossible to speed up, and they have chosen the
worst possible method, transfer of money.

West Germans have already started to complain about too high taxes, and The
East Germans live on credit. It cannot, in any way produce, recovery.

Caius
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Date:         Mon, 4 Jan 1993 18:40:30 +0100
From:         BADERTINOVS%NEWS@ADMINB.RFERL.ORG
Subject:      Re: On Bosnia, Serbia and a Potential 'Third B
Comments: To: POLITICS@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu

OK Your Highness The Logic Czar, I admit the blunder. Will try to learn
more about logics during my vacation. Sam.
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Date:         Thu, 7 Jan 1993 09:57:30 EST
From:         todd pukanecz <CCCS@VTVM1.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Uncl: Re: Addiction as Disease

>From Robert
>I agree that some may have a genetic predisposition to alcoholism, or
>some other similar problem.  I applaud you for having *CHOSEN* to deal
>with your problem.  You have shown the good sense to exercise your
>free will and have *CHOSEN* not to participate.  Your decision reflects
>nicely on the virtues of self-responsibility.
>
Thanks, but your assessment is naive.  My *CHOICE* was a decision that
was made for me by lack of alternatives.  My *CHOICE* was between life and
death, so was based on my instinct for survival rather than some altru-
istic sense of personal or civic responsibility.  Bet enough about me,
lets talk about....

>Still, I believe that addiction=disease is more of a ploy than a fact.

This contradicts the first sentence of the previous paragraph.  A
genetic predisposition toward alcoholism is much like an allergy to
alcohol.  Maybe disease is a misnomer, but the difference is minor as
both are medical problems.  When my brother broke out from an allergic
reaction to raisins, we took him to the doctor, not the clergy.

Perhaps the real problem is that dealing with addicts by throwing them
in jail or (as some propose) work camps is easier and more expedient
than dealing with the physiological, psychological, and sociological
factors that lead to addiction.

>Maybe the addicts themselves are not the first ones to use this claim as
>an excuse for their lack of control, but regardless of where the tactic
>is employed it is still nothing more than a band-aid for the emotional
>condition of the addict.  Now I don't mind a little compassion and
>understanding but the disease claim provides total innocence and implies
>victimization.  These provisions may make the addict feel much better but

The disease claim does not provide total innocence, nor does it imply
victimization.  Does a cold sufferer cry victimization?  Does a herpes
sufferer claim total innocence?  Do you know addicts who make such
claims?  Or are you talking through your hat again?

>I believe they send exactly the *wrong* message to society.

And what message would that be?  I personally found great solace in the
notion that my disease, although not curable, was treatable.
   todddddddddddd

=========== Wake up John Doe.  You're the hope of the world! ===========
--------     /^^\    ---- Todd Pukanecz ----   ----  CCCS@VTVM1  ----
-----      /      >   --- Ag. Econ. DPL --- "Jesus died for somebody's
---  /\_ / @       \   -- Virginia Tech --   sins... but not mine."
-  /________________>   - Blacksburg VA -    -PATTY SMITH
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Date:         Wed, 6 Jan 1993 15:02:00 EST
From:         "Peter J. Schledorn" <UNCPJS@UNC.OIT.UNC.EDU>
Subject:      Linda, you've got a treat coming.
Comments: To: Forum for the Discussion of Politics <POLITICS@UCF1VM.CC.UCF.EDU>

> peter, what's the name of the movie????

Oops.  Sorry.  It's Dr. Strangelove.  By a wide margin the funniest
movie ever made about nuclear war (though The Atomic Cafe is also
memorable).

Best,
Peter

> -linda (who desparately needs something to laugh about)
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Date:         Mon, 4 Jan 1993 14:39:12 EST
From:         todd pukanecz <CCCS@VTVM1.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: hi again and help
              4 Jan 1993 14:27:01 -0500 from <KILBURN@WVSVAX.WVNET.EDU>

hi kerry,
  Glad to hear you had a happy and safe holiday.
  About the NOMAIL, the politics list is distributed through 2 listservers,
one at OHSTVMA and one at UCF1VM.  You might have to talk to the other
LISTSERVer even though your mail comes through the other.  You should
be able to experiment with NOMAIL and MAIL without disrupting the flow
of mail (as long as you work quick :-)).
   toddddddddddd
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
From: kadie@eff.org (Carl M. Kadie)
Subject: Re: Uncl: Re: Uncl: Re: Uncl: re: Colorado boycott
Originator: kadie@eff.org
Organization: The Electronic Frontier Foundation
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 17:28:35 GMT

Robert Moss <SPRG0002@TULSAJC.BITNET> writes:

>I wonder how we ever got around the little problems of governmental
>swearing in procedures,

I am happy to report that our nation's constitution allows
affirmations in place of oaths, e.g.:
  "I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute
   the office of president of the United States, and will to the best
   of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the constitution of
   the United States." (Article II, Section 1)

>Congressional chaplains and opening prayers?  I wonder why scripture
>is emblazoned in the walls of some of our oldest governmental
>facilities?

Congress can pretty do what it wants. BTW: Did you know the Senate's
Chaplin earns $110,000. He is Protestant, but I don't think he is
"Born Again."

>I wonder how we decided to put "G"od on our coins?

It happened like this: In the 1950's the government decided that a
good way to fight Communism would be to put "under God" in the Pledge
and to require "In God We Trust" on all our coins. (It was on some
coins before that, but not all, and it wasn't required.)

>I wonder which American tradition/right/strength you'll decide
>to attack next?
[...]

About a month ago, the Illinois Supreme Court said it was OK to
require student nonbelivers to say the Pledge because the phrase "one
nation under God" had become meaningless. The case illustrates how
government "support" for religion can backfire.

- Carl

ANNOTATED REFERENCES

(All these documents are available on-line. Access information follows.)

=================
civics/constitution.us
=================
The Constitution of the United States

=================
civil-liberty/pledge.history
=================
* A History of the Pledge of Allegiance

An essay examining the origins of the Pledge of Allegiance and the history
of its introduction into public schools, written by John W. Baer of
Propaganda Review.

=================
=================

If you have gopher, you can browse the CAF archive with the command
   gopher gopher.eff.org

These document(s) are also available by anonymous ftp (the preferred
method) and by email. To get the file(s) via ftp, do an anonymous ftp
to ftp.eff.org (192.88.144.4), and get file(s):

  pub/academic/civics/constitution.us
  pub/academic/civil-liberty/pledge.history

To get the file(s) by email, send email to archive-server@eff.org.
Include the line(s) (be sure to include the space before the file
name):

send acad-freedom/civics constitution.us
send acad-freedom/civil-liberty pledge.history
-- 
Carl Kadie -- I do not represent EFF; this is just me.
 =kadie@eff.org, kadie@cs.uiuc.edu =
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Date:         Mon, 4 Jan 1993 17:42:39 +0100
From:         BADERTINOVS%NEWS@ADMINB.RFERL.ORG
Subject:      Re: what makes a good parent?
Comments: To: POLITICS@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu

Sam:
>Any disadvantages of growing up in a gay family are mostly
>due to outside factors (homophobia, ect.)

Ramon's response:
>Nonetheless, the outside factors are very real, have quite a
>nagative effect on rearing a child, and unfortunately, will be present for
>quite some time...

My response to Ramon:
That's why the outside factors should be eliminated.
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Date:         Thu, 7 Jan 1993 13:37:10 -0600
From:         "VALENTINE M. SMITH" <CDELL@UMKCVAX1.BITNET>
Subject:      Reply to Evelyn Duncan ...

Date: 07 Jan 1993 13:39:38 -0500 (EST)
From: Evelyn Duncan <R3EJD%AKRONVM.bitnet@MIZZOU1.missouri.edu>
Subject: RE: Kevorkian Sets Sights on Ohio

>>On Thu, 7 Jan 1993 13:28:44 -0400 The Integral Differential said:
>>
>>        These people *want* to die.
>>
>>        Why should we stop them?  If they are lucid, and it's their desire, we
>>have no right to stand in their way.

>Helping someone to kill him/herself bothers me; don't those people
>know what their suicides mean to their family and friends?

In most of the cases I'm aware of, as I've not followed Kevorkian's
"Dr. Death" career completely, the family is integrally involved in
the decision, in at least two cases, several members of family were
present at the time of the assisted death.

>>Brett'

>Evelyn

VMS
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