HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: chmilar@Apple.COM (Michael Chmilar)
Newsgroups: alt.sex,alt.cyberpunk,misc.legal
Subject: Re: Virtual Ethics
Date: 12 Apr 92 19:33:43 GMT
Organization: Apple Computer Inc., Cupertino, CA

rstevew@deeptht.santa-cruz.ca.us (Richard Steven Walz) writes:

>>- Michael Chmilar.  Virtual reality is a hoax.

>[...]  That's assuming of course that the new body will
>have enhanced sexual capability! Mr. Chlimar [sic], life, [sic] is a
>hoax. The very computer you are using right now is destined to supercede
>the spontaneously arising [huh?] human body which rots in three score and
>ten.
>[...] what will be ever afterward a controlled and ever more elegantly
>perfected process of machine evolution [...]
>- Steve Walz

I'm glad to see that someone else is having fun with this VR crap, too.

The rest of you:  stop watching Star Trek - go out and experience real
reality!

Mike
Xref: sparky alt.sex:13544 alt.cyberpunk:1954 misc.legal:8869
From: allens@yang.earlham.edu (Allen Smith)
Newsgroups: alt.sex,alt.cyberpunk,misc.legal
Subject: Re: Photo of minor, etc./Virtual Ethics
Date: 5 Apr 92 21:47:37 GMT
 <1992Mar31.104856.16665@yang.earlham.edu> <1992Apr2.020825.28358@kestrel.edu> <1992Apr2.031058.19303@reed.edu>
Organization: Earlham College, Richmond, Indiana

In article <1992Apr2.031058.19303@reed.edu>, mehawk@reed.edu (Michael Sandy) writes:
> 
> How would you react to someone using a simulation of you in their
> Virtual fantasy?  What if they did various non-consensual type stuff
> with that copy?
> 
> And no royalties! ;^)
> 
	That's an interesting point. Should people have copyrights over 
their appearance, etc? I'd say yes. Just as someone shouldn't be able to 
find out/use my grades, etc. without my permission, they shouldn't be able 
to use my appearance without my permission. Of course, at some point this 
runs into freedom of the press- being able to print a photo of someone.
	-Allen
Newsgroups: alt.sex,alt.cyberpunk,misc.legal
From: ahawks@isis.cs.du.edu (richard m. nixon)
Subject: Re: Virtual Ethics
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 92 04:17:28 GMT

In article <65262@apple.Apple.COM> chmilar@Apple.COM (Michael Chmilar) writes:

|I'm glad to see that someone else is having fun with this VR crap, too.
|
|The rest of you:  stop watching Star Trek - go out and experience real
|reality!
|
|Mike

There is no such thing - it doesn't exist.  Nothing exists.  (hmm, maybe we
should add talk.philos to the cross-posting now...)

--


ahawks@isis.cs.du.edu						andy

Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk
From: xcz13@isuvax.iastate.edu
Subject: on vinge
Reply-To: xcz13@isuvax.iastate.edu
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, Iowa
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1992 01:19:44 GMT

 the auther Joan D. Vinge has a cuouauouple iof good cyberpunkish books out.
Psion and its sequal Catspaw. there are some interestingt premisise covered in these books (Catspaw is a novel-Psion is not)
please follow with own apinoiions andc coments.

ELF-KIN
	chericter quote(one of nmy own) "a gun and an is like an insterment properly tuned and handaled with canre they bolth git your point acrost., if not they could backfier.
From: tjk5@po.CWRU.Edu (Timothy J. Kordas)
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk
Subject: Re: Term in Gibson's "Mona Lisa Overdrive"
Date: 14 Apr 92 16:52:47 GMT
Article-I.D.: po.tjk5.7
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)

In article <rwmira01.53.0@vlsi.louisville.edu> rwmira01@vlsi.louisville.edu (Rob Miracle (Non-priv)) writes:

>I am reading "Mona Lisa Overdrive" and having only read "Burning Chrome" I 
>am have problem with some of Gibson's terminology (finding Neuromancer is a 
>pain in the butt).  In particular, he refers to the "loa" and I must have 
>missed it.  It has something to do with Cyberspace.

Seeing as "Mona Lisa Overdrive" is a sequel to "Neuromancer" and especially
"Count Zero" You have missed something, both are wonderful books, AND the
concept of the loa is introduced in "Count Zero" as a group of god figures
associated with the matrix after the end of "Neuromancer"
From: dansmith@Autodesk.COM (Daniel Smith)
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk
Subject: Re: Term in Gibson's "Mona Lisa Overdrive"
Date: 16 Apr 92 18:23:39 GMT
Article-I.D.: autodesk.11095
Organization: Autodesk Inc., Sausalito CA, USA

In <rwmira01.55.703342345@vlsi.louisville.edu> rwmira01@vlsi.louisville.edu (Rob Miracle (Non-priv)) writes:
> I got several responses via e-mail that have echoed what was posted here.  I 
> guess my next question is: Should I stop reading "Mona Lisa Overdrive" now 
> and get the first two read first?  I am about 1/2 the way thru "MLD" and 
> have to return it to the library by 4/30.  If reading "MLD" is going to 
> spoil "Neuromancer" and "Count Zero" then I want to stop, I think.

	Try reading "Burning Chrome", "Neuromancer", "Count Zero", and
then "Mona Lisa Overdrive" if you want to do it chronologically.  You
have until the 30th?  No problem!  Reading all that at once builds
character :-)

				Daniel
-- 
 dansmith@autodesk.com       daniel@world.std.com       dansmith@well.sf.ca.us
        Daniel Smith, Autodesk, Sausalito, California, (415) 332-2344 x 2580
              Disclaimer: written by a highly caffeinated mammal
 $|=1;for("..."," hacker"," perl"," a","just"){print $l=$_.$l,"\015";sleep 1;}
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk
From: tmaddox@milton.u.washington.edu (Tom Maddox)
Subject: Re: Virtual Reality
Organization: The Evergreen State College, Olympia, Washington
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1992 06:16:58 GMT

In article <1992Mar31.163403.25924@u.washington.edu> kitsch@milton.u.washington.edu (Ted Fitch) writes:
>But if virtual women are exploited, what happens when the user decides that
>VR sex is not for him and carries out the fantasies he has had with 
>artificial women out with real women?  In my opinion, VR sex exploiting
>women would merely feed the desire the carry out the act in real life.  

	Many people holding the same opinion have failed to substantiate it
through fairly extensive research.  So far as I know, we simply don't know 
the relationships between things read (or listened to or viewed) and 
subsequent behavior.  

>Until
>tactile controls mirror each and every nerve in your body, VR sex will be
>nothing but pornography!  While at first the statisfaction gained via this
>means might quench the thirst for "exploitation" the very fact that it does
>not mirror the real thing will eventually drive the user to carry out his
>fantasy in a real life environment.

	My comment above applies again.  Let me add that we *can* demonstrate
a connection between viewing pornography and masturbating, and I see nothing
wrong with that.  
-- 
				Tom Maddox
			tmaddox@u.washington.edu
		"Writing is reading and reading is writing."
				A. S. Byatt
From: kinnema@wkuvx1.bitnet (Mark Kinney, Attorney at Chaos)
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk
Subject: Re: Photo of minor, etc./Virtual Ethics
Date: 7 Apr 92 16:37:28 GMT
Article-I.D.: wkuvx1.1992Apr7.113728.1236
Organization: Western Kentucky University, Bowling Green, KY

In article <jim.702589290@piggy>, jim@ferkel.ucsb.edu (Jim Lick) writes:
> In <1992Apr4.133839.16737@yang.earlham.edu> jessec@yang.earlham.edu writes:
>>Hmm.  I think that you have to take into account the type of "simulated 
>>violence" and the spirit it's done in.  It would be hard to imagine an 
>>innocent, playful, fun simulation of sexual assault, for instance.
> 
> It would be hard to imagine an innocent, playful, fun Terminator movie.
> 
The difference is that with a movie, your role is purely passive: you're just
watching. VR adds the possibility of *participation* in such acts.
-- 
Mark Kinney [KINNEMA@WKUVX1.(BITNET)(WKU.EDU)] | Don't just eat a hamburger,
PhoneNet: (502)745-4246	  (Bowling Green, KY)  | eat the HELL out of it!
This has been a test. If this had been an actual emergency, you'd be dead.
Quote of the Week: "Quaker-pop Rice Sparkies and Quaker-pop Wheat Sparkies,
	those delicious, nutritious breakfast cereals shot from guns!"
				-- Negativland, "Guns"
From: futrena@wkuvx1.bitnet
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk
Subject: Cyberpunk guides
Date: 15 Apr 92 12:33:00 CDT
Organization: Western Kentucky University, Bowling Green, KY

In my opinion, one of the the best cyberpunk roleplaying and/or informative
guides is the _GURPS_Cyberpunk_ by Steve Jackson games.  Although I play the
GURPS roleplaying system on a regular basis, my roomates and I have the
Shadowrun, Cyberpunk 2020, and Cyberspace roleplaying games.  All these books
have their advantages/disadvantages.  However, the GURPS system allows to play
any type of Cyberpunk roleplaying.  It is also a good source book for
information about the Cyberpunk movement.


Nathan

"Jacking into cyberspace."
From: sean@think.com (Sean Colbath)
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk
Subject: Re: new thread: what will the world look like?
Date: 9 Apr 1992 18:11:28 GMT
Organization: Thinking Machines Corporation, Cambridge, MA (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: merlin.think.com

In article <1992Apr9.050706.21555@usenet.ins.cwru.edu> bdj@engr.uark.edu (Bryan D. Jones) writes:
>
>Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
>Do any of you really believe that the conservative facists in our
>society will really implement a VR network that spans the whole country
>or evebn the world?  They would oppose suck a change in there most
>effective and or violent means possible for it would mean that they
>would be unable to control a portion of our society.  And what about the
>religious fanatics in the world they would most likely say that such an
>invention was from the dark one(s) itself.
>
>Any and all flames welcome
>
>-- 
>Bryan D. Jones  (as724)
>email   bdj@engr.uark.edu
>Only The Insane Have the Strength to Prosper.  Only those who
>     Prosper Truely Judge What is Sane.   --Proverb--

But... but... it *already* exists!  For some definition of "VR"!  The
Internet has an estimated 45,000 hosts worldwide, with probably that many
more on uucp only and an equivalent amount running Fidonet.  It's *here
now* and worldwide.  And Congress just approved spending for a faster
Internet, called the NREN, that would be capable of realtime video
transmission.  It will undoubtedly happen simply due to momentum, if for no
other reason.

You may also find that conservatives like that will be won over quite
readilly when they realize that either they better do it, or our foreign
competitors will do it and sell it back to us.

As for the religious fanatics -- well, they can go off and build their own
damn net...



-- 
Sean Colbath
sean@think.com					...harvard!think!sean
"...and now for something completely different..."
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk
From: ahawks@isis.cs.du.edu (andy)
Subject: Mondo 2000:  The Book
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 92 22:43:22 GMT

Well, I just got a 'newsletter' of sorts from The Tattered Cover (great
bookstore here in Colorado, USA) in the mail today and towards the back is
something I thought everyone would be interested in:  (quoting without
permission)

_Mondo 2000:  A User's Guide to the New Edge_
	-Cyberpunk, Virtual Reality, Wetware, Designer Aphrodisiacs, Artificial
Life, Techno-Erotic Paganism and More...
	by RU Sirius and Queen Mu
	$17.00 paperback [damn!!] 
	JUNE

Surf the crest of the coming revolution in art, technology, media, science, and
music with the likes of Brian Eno, William Burroughs, Timothy Leary, Bruce
Sterling, and others.  Boost your brain with amino chemistry.  Learn about
pleasure pulse implants, high-tech paganism, teledildonics, and cyberpunk
jockeying.  It's all in this bizarre buying guide to the future, showing you
how to acquire tomorrow today.  (Harper Perennial, ISBN 0-06-096928-8).

(end of blurb....)

Hmm, sounds great!  Maybe focusing a little too much on "teledildonics" and
other sexually-oriented stuff to please the masses and sell more books.

Anyway, sounds kind of like _Would the Buddha Wear A Walkman_....

~~~

Speaking of books, anyone heard anything on Bruce Sterling's book on hackers?

And did John Perry Barlow over write a book called _Everything We Know is
Wrong_?  

--


ahawks@isis.cs.du.edu						andy

Xref: sparky alt.sex:13583 alt.cyberpunk:1961 misc.legal:8899
From: IK80014@MAINE.MAINE.EDU (Andrew Paradis)
Newsgroups: alt.sex,alt.cyberpunk,misc.legal
Subject: Re: Photo of minor, etc./Virtual Ethics
Date: 4 Apr 92 19:56:39 GMT
 <1992Mar31.104856.16665@yang.earlham.edu> <1992Apr2.020825.28358@kestrel.edu>
 <1992Apr2.031058.19303@reed.edu>
Organization: University of Maine System

Michael Sandy says....
>Consider the Holodeck, from Star Trek, or SimSense, from almost any
>Cyberpunk novel.
>
>Would the computer running the Holodeck follow Asimovs Laws for Robots?
>What would it consider "harm" to a person's image?
>
   What we have to recall are the actual Three Laws.  The Three Laws
do _not_ account for humans if they are not present.  Well, almost.
If we look at the story "Liar!" (found in _Robot Visions_) it is
obvious that a robot will lie so that a human's feelings will not be
hurt.  And they will lie about other humans even.  Since VR is mostly
a lie anyway, or at least not reality, a positronic computer would
have no compulsion to not go ahead and deliver what the human partici-
pant wanted.  ie, any fantasy about any other human or any other
creature or object.
   Since no human is coming to any physical or mental harm (it is
not up to the computer whether the human participant tells the other
human or not) the computer would not delay in satisfying whatever
virtual desire the participant wanted.
   Just a thought, anyway.
************************************************************
Andrew P. Paradis                  ik80014@maine.maine.edu
"Come as you are."
************************************************************
From: allens@yang.earlham.edu (Allen Smith)
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk
Subject: Re: Playboy Article "Adventures in Cyberspace"
Date: 13 Apr 92 03:46:32 GMT
Organization: Earlham College, Richmond, Indiana

In article <1954@akiu.gw.tohoku.ac.jp>, masmith@apollo writes:
> 
> 	In this thread, has anyone here seen the movie "Brainstorm"
> with Christopher Walkin and Natalie Wood?  Excellent movie.  It's
> about this team of scientists who develop a system to store 
> brainwaves, beginning with the senses and eventually moving to 
> emotions and memories.
> 	Anyway, as expected one of the techs in the lab uses the
> equipment to record a sexual encounter.  One of the scientists/
> assistants (I'm not really clear on his role) accepts the tape
> to look at.  He is impressed by the tape, so makes it into a 
> continuous loop and puts it on.  He is missing from work for two
> days, when his girlfriend(?) finds him sitting there having 
> successive orgasms.  It really messes up his brain, as he is prone 
> to debilitating flashbacks.
> 	This is not quite VR, but does show one of the possible 
> abuses.  Anything that simulates reality to that high an extent
> without the controls imposed by reality can really mess a person up.
> 
	Any system is capable of abuse. As long as the users are properly 
informed and are competent, then it's their problem.
	-Allen
From: kinnema@wkuvx1.bitnet (Mark Kinney, Attorney at Chaos)
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk
Subject: Re: Virtual Ethics
Date: 7 Apr 92 16:43:28 GMT
Article-I.D.: wkuvx1.1992Apr7.114328.1237
Organization: Western Kentucky University, Bowling Green, KY

In article <1992Apr6.214659.21833@muddcs.claremont.edu>, awells@jarthur.claremont.edu (Adam "Servo" Wells) writes:
> In article <1992Apr5.164737.16759@yang.earlham.edu> allens@yang.earlham.edu (Allen Smith) writes:
>>	That's an interesting point. Should people have copyrights over 
>>their appearance, etc? I'd say yes. Just as someone shouldn't be able to 
>>find out/use my grades, etc. without my permission, they shouldn't be able 
>>to use my appearance without my permission. Of course, at some point this 
>>runs into freedom of the press- being able to print a photo of someone.
>
> [Straight Dope info deleted]
>
> So if I create a virtual world where Vanna is my sex slave, and I kill Bush
> every day, but it's all mine and no one else can see it, what's the problem?

No problem, really, but...

> If I publish my 'simsense' production, of course these people could take
> action against me.  

Right. Plus see below.

> But back to my original point.  mehawk@reed.edu is correct that it is a
> freedom of speech issue.  Currently, you have freedom of speech ... just
> don't slander or libel anyone (or get into obscenity trouble).  If you want to 
> produce your new screenplay using your super video-editing computer, and
> star Michael J. Fox and Winona Ryder in it, without consulting them, I don't
> think that it would be illegal.  That is, unless, they felt that the sex
> scene was something that damaged their reputations.  Then they could sue you
> for ... uh, virtual slander.  Since they are public figures, we are allowed
> to put them in our movie, as long as it's not slanderous.  

Don't forget Bette Midler's recent successful lawsuit against some company that
used a sound-alike in one of their radio commercials after Bette turned them
down. I would think that this case would be similar. If you don't publish it, I
guess you'd be fine. Publishing is asking for trouble, though.

-- 
Mark Kinney [KINNEMA@WKUVX1.(BITNET)(WKU.EDU)] | Don't just eat a hamburger,
PhoneNet: (502)745-4246	  (Bowling Green, KY)  | eat the HELL out of it!
This has been a test. If this had been an actual emergency, you'd be dead.
Quote of the Week: "Quaker-pop Rice Sparkies and Quaker-pop Wheat Sparkies,
	those delicious, nutritious breakfast cereals shot from guns!"
				-- Negativland, "Guns"
From: aamicone@sdcc13.ucsd.edu (Andrew Micone)
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk
Subject: Re: Playboy Article "Adventures in Cyberspace"
Date: 6 Apr 92 07:19:42 GMT
Organization: University of California, San Diego

In article <1992Mar30.122146.1168@wkuvx1.bitnet> kinnema@wkuvx1.bitnet (Mark Kinney, Attorney at Chaos) writes:
>In article <1992Mar27.174807.10501@news.unomaha.edu>, ACM023@Zeus.unomaha.edu (Ed Stastny ACMM) writes:
>> Also, there was a sub-article (half a page) on "virtual sex" with a few
>> Timothy Leary comments in it.
>
>An interesting note to tie in with the recent "VR porn" discussion here: It
>seems (according to this article, anyway) that the organizations working on VR
>are reluctant to talk about this aspect of it, for PR reasons. They did
>acknoledge the possibility, though.

I can't blame them, all this media hype about VR Porn is only
hurting the serious research efforts in the field. Most VR research
has been going on quietly for many years now in fields like medical
imaging and improved interface technologies. Research grants are
going to go to other fields if it's percieved that VR's ultimate
goal is a virtual sex playground. That's not to say that it's not an
interesting idea, I know there are some startups like PiR (Pleasure
instruments Research) working on the hardware side of the problem.
They too like to keep a low-profile, which I can understand since
many of us might feel, er, uncomfortable knowing what sort of
"research" might be going on next door...moral outrage might be a
better term
From: ajs90@ecs.soton.ac.uk (Suter AJ)
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk
Subject: Loa voodoo , Turing losing it *completely*
Date: 16 Apr 92 12:28:58 GMT

The loa seem to me as a represntation of the fragmented AI's that
broke loose(neuromancer and wintermute)  and are running round the matrix. 
They seem to be viewed
as loa becasue the voodoo priest computer jockeys got to them first. I
seem to remember apart of one of the books where it is mentioned that
somenone else thought that there were some other type of entity, i.e.
not Loa. 

From this I can conlude that they could have been represented by any
other mythylogical beings, angels , tree sprites , yeti's etc.

"...and the good news is , there is no f**king good news.."Angry Bob.

Andy
 
Xref: sparky alt.sex:13784 alt.cyberpunk:2003 misc.legal:9027
From: rstevew@deeptht.santa-cruz.ca.us (Richard Steven Walz)
Newsgroups: alt.sex,alt.cyberpunk,misc.legal
Subject: Re: Photo of minor, etc./Virtual Ethics
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 92 15:55:15 GMT
Organization: The Armory

In article <JFRkiB1w164w@labyrnth.via.mind.org> minotaur@labyrnth.via.mind.org (The Minotaur) writes:
>jessec@yang.earlham.edu writes:
>
>> 
>>    If it boils down to the question:
>> 
>>    Is one responsible for one's actions within or with respect to virtual 
>> environments/persons/objects with no consequences in the "real world"?
>> 
>> then my answer is probably, no, you're not.  Not in a strict legal sense.
>> And if you take that view, then the possibility opens up of something one 
>> might call virtual amorality.  Say I've been annoyed by this person in my 
>> neighborhood.  I have to live with him, and I have to live with the 
>> consequences of my actions towards him in the real world, but I feel like 
>> some demonstration of anger.  So I pop into a virtual construct, insert 
>> Mr. Neighbor, and enact a gory murder.  Then pop out, catharsis enacted, 
>> and go on with my business, a load lifted from my mind.  Is this okay and 
>> hunky-dory?
>
>Some religions and moral frameworks consider the _thought_ of a sin or
>amoral act equivalent to the sin or amoral act itself.  Remember, most
>courts require that there be *intent* to commit an act in order for it
>to be illegal.  (ie: I intended to pick up that bubblegum  -vs-  That
>bubblegum accidently fell in the cuff of my pants.)  [yah, yah...weak
>example, I know, but I'm extemporizing...]
>
>The bruiser:  Is intent alone enough to convict?
>
>
>[rest of though-provoking article deleted]
>
No court or legislature has ever made the fictitious depiction of an
otherwise illegal act illegal. They cannot under the first amendment
right to free speech and expression. VR constitutes that, but so does
your imagination, and they can't take that away from you! And maybe
you can off your nasty neighbor anyway if your imagination finds the
very safest way.                    - Steve
Newsgroups: alt.sex,alt.cyberpunk,misc.legal
From: jwoodman@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Jonathan A Woodman)
Subject: Re: Intent (was Re: Photo of minor, etc./Virtual Ethics)
Organization: The Ohio State University College of Law
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1992 16:55:34 GMT

In article  falk@peregrine.Sun.COM (Ed Falk) writes:

>Not only that, but the "conspirators" DIDN'T EVEN ALL KNOW EACH OTHER.

In a "spoke and hub" conspiracy, it is common for many of the conspirators
not to know each other. The same is also true of a "chain" conspiracy.

>The quote that comes to mind from the book is "If a boy steals candy,
>that's a misdemeaner.  If two boys plan to steal candy, and then
>*don't do it*, that's conspiracy which is a felony."

Ah, you have to love the law.

-- 
Jonathan Woodman                   \ "I mean, sex is one thing, but reading
jwoodman@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu /  to someone is *really* intimate." C. Duda
The Ohio State University          \ "Oh, you can slice that salami of 
   College of Law                  /  copyright any number of ways." S. Halpern
Xref: sparky alt.sex:13996 alt.cyberpunk:2034 misc.legal:9107