From: mfriedma@uucp (Michael Friedman)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african.american
Subject: Re: How white America perceives African-Americans??!??
Date: 22 Jan 93 04:25:30 GMT
Organization: Oracle Corporation
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by an unauthenticated user
              at Oracle Corporation.  The opinions expressed are those
              of the user and not necessarily those of Oracle.

In article <1993Jan21.161946.20461@netnews.noc.drexel.edu> glovercj@duvm.ocs.drexel.edu writes:
>In article <1993Jan20.175038.29894@oracle.us.oracle.com> mfriedma@uucp (Michael
>Friedman) writes:

>>What you mean is that you were talking bullshit.  That's probably why
>>you deleted the context.

>>>>Let's note that this is a statistical argument.  I thought you
>>>>objected to statistics.

>>>I do object to statistics, but what I've seen is reality. Are you afraid to
>>>find the truth?

>>Chad, you objected to my argument because it was statistical.  You
>>then presented your own argument... which was statistical.  What it
>>looks like to me is that you look at the result of the argument,
>>decide if you like it, accept the argument if you like its result, and
>>then look for a justification for your decision.

>No, Mike I don't want to spend several hours looking in the University library
>for useless facts, would you? My point is that there can be statistics for
>anything. (Period) And statistics are shaped by the people who give them and
>you know it. 

Of course.  Just as the statistics you provided were shaped by you.
The main difference was that my argument was a general one about how
populations of anything behave.  You don't need to spend hours looking
in a University Library.  You don't even need 10 minutes.  If you
passed pre-cal you can derive the results I described - I even
explained how in my post.  You, however, provided a conclusion based
on personal observations of a small sample.  You provided no hard
numbers, no calculations of significance, and nothing that could be
permanently checked.  Which result do you think is more credible?

>Bush said, America was winning the war on Drugs, statistically in
>suburbs where the drug probablem may not have been as significant, maybe so,
>but taking statistics from America, I don't think he could have said that.
>Statistics lie.  I see reality, what do you see?

Taking statistics from America.  I love that phrase.  What the heck
does it mean?  Whatever you want it to mean.  Certainly, it doesn't
mean taking overall US statistics, because if you do, then Bush is
right.  (Simplest test is price - street price of most drugs has
increased over the past four years.)  I guess some parts of this
country are "America" and some are not, and the ones that are, at
least in your mind, are the ones with the drug problem.

>>Well, Jews worldwide don't seem to commit suicide over the Holocaust.
>>Cambodians don't commit suicide over the Khmer Rouge.  American
>>Indians don't commit suicide over the destruction of their own
>>cultures.  I think you need a sense of proportion.

>I have a sense of proportion, how can you talk? You're the one that sugested
>commiting suicide, not me. 

This is a lie.  I never suggested committing suicide.  I challenge you
to find any such suggestion in my posts.  The fact that you were lying
would be totally obvious if you had not deleted my statement.

>>Nope.  They're right there.  It happens.  It's just rather rare in
>>comparison, especially if you eliminate crime against criminals or
>>their families.  

>I guess it's so rare that there are no statistics 

Chad, the stats on white on white crime are readily available.  They
are kept by the FBI.  They just aren't newsworthy because they are so
damned low compared to other crime.

>and there are no white people
>in jail either, right? Mike, be realistic, come back to earth.

Chad, you are implying I said this.  I did not.  Not quite a lie, but
damned close.  ARe you really so insecure in your position that you
need to set up straw men, lie about my earlier statements, and imply
that I made statements that I did not?

>>Not true at all.  You can have liberty without money, education,
>>health, or a family.  You can also pursue happiness without these,
>>although it is tougher.

>>Also, how the heck can health and a family by rights?  That's totally bizarre.

>>>So I can not pursuit happiness without the education I need to get
>>>it. 

>>Who has denied you an education?

>Let's again be realistic, what kind of job are you going to get in your
>American dream with no education? Hmmm, let's pause and think?????????
>Answer, McDonalds-modern day slavery. $4.60 an hour, before taxes, that's
>barely enough to live off of, let alone go to ANY college.

Hey, the Declaration of Independence says you get life, liberty, and
the pursuit of happiness, not a job.

>No education, no
>happiness, no job.

You can't be happy if you are poor?

>Ever heard of a vicious circle? As to who has denied me
>education, society. Society and people like you who believe everybody can get
>their piece of th America Dream, if they just work hard enough to get it.

Please tell me more.  You post from Drexel.  Are you there as a
janitor, or are you getting an education?

Also, did your highschool teach the Declaration of Independence and
the Constitution?  If so, whose fault is it that you have not taken
the trouble to retain what you learned?

>>>People who loot, riot, and murder are animals?

>>Yup.

>So, if people are fighting for a cause and the loot, riot, and murder, they are
>animals?

Definitely.  People fighting for a cause, as opposed to fighting for a
bottle of JD or some Nike sneakers, have no need to loot, except in
limited cases for things like weapons.

Anyway, if they are fighting for a cause, then they can hardly
complain when their enemies fight back using the same tactics they use
- looting, rioting, and murdering.

>>Funny, but I am sometimes upset, misdirected, and frustrated.  Somehow
>>I have managed to restrain myself from lloting, rioting, and
>>murdering.  

>But hay, how many times have you been frustated because people won't accept
>something you can never change, your complexion?

A couple of times.  For example, there was a really hot Korean girl I
always wanted to date back in college.  I was white.  SOL.

>>Maybe they should.  Personally, I don't steal.

>But, I'm sure you're no Saint either!

I never claimed to be.  Don't put words in my mouth.

>>>This is another example to temporary 
>>>solutions to almost permanent problems.

>>I don't know.  A permanent policy of shoot to kill against rioters
>>might be a pretty effective permanent solution to riots.

>Go ahead, kill everybody that steps out of line and believe me, someone will
>start to think the same way about you, and eventually kill you too.

Do you really believe that rioting is merely "stepping out of line"?
Isn't it a bit more serious than that?

>>I understnad the reasoning.  It goes something like this.
>>"I like X."
>>"I do not have enough money to get as much X as I want."
>>"Due to the current disorder I can take X without paying and with
>>minimal risk."
>>"Go for it."

>Better yet, how about, I need food, I need money, I can not sustain my family,
>my life, or anything with what I have, all others means are exhausted, what
>will I do?

Believable if the rioters in LA had targetted grocery stores.
Unfortunately for your argument, they seemed more interested in liquor
stores, consumer appliances, and clothing. 
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