From: gross@befvax.uchicago.edu
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: "Democracy" & "Israel" are Axonyms.
Date: 11 Apr 92 18:21:58 GMT
Reply-To: gross@befvax.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago, Dept of Molecular Genetics

In article <Apr.9.22.22.29.1992.3790@paul.rutgers.edu>, marwan@paul.rutgers.edu (Marwan Gharaybeh) writes:
>
>Some pro-Israeli people on this net continuously brag about the 
>following Issues:
>  1) Israel is one of the most democratic "Democracy".
>  2) Israel treats palestinians "nicely" ... In fact some bozo even
>     suggested that Palestinians are "more happy" under the Israeli
>     occupation that they have ever been.
>  3) Condemn any form of predgedism against them by using the term
>     "Anti-semitism" and forget how much there hearts could be filled
>     with hatred to other people (e.g. Palestinians).

No one is claiming that the Arabs in the West Bank live under democracy.
People are claiming that the Arabs in Israel are living under democracy,
and that the Israeli government functions as a democracy.

>In 1987 when the Intefada exploded in the occupied territories, there
>were still some western reporters in the west bank, that was before
>the Israeli "Democrates" expelled/sensored them so that they would excersise
>their hatred freely (the term "Free" is often used by Democracy supporters) ...

This is just false.  Reporters were not kicked out of the territories, and
continued to report about the uprising, frequently with front page stories.
There are more Western reporters in Israel (and the territories) then 
there are in almost any other country.  And they have almost free range.
Certainly more than in any other country in the Mideast.

>The sceen was about two brothers from Nablus (Nablus==Jabal El-Nar==the
>mountain of fire) running with fear from 7-8 Israeli soldiers who finally
>captured them ... The reporter was probably hiding on an adjacent hill, so
>the sceen looked like taken from a distance ... One of the soldiers looked
>all around him to see that there is nobody seeing him (the stupid did not
>see the reporter and the camera) and after that the 5 DEVILS started their
>evil business ... 2 of the Devils held the arab teenager, one pressed him
>firmly to the ground and the other twisted the boy's arm and extended his
>elbow behind his back ... Another Devil looked around him and found a huge
>rock on the ground, he picked it up, and then with all his force, he lifted
>it high up and slamed it to the poor guys hand ... For those pro-Israelis,
>I want to say that the devil hit the boy on his Elbow ... GOD ... THE
>ELBOW ... I sware to god that I felt that stone on my elbow as I was 
>watching the scene ... The scene was so unpleasent to watch that I could
>not bear to continue to see it ... I jumped and went streight to my room.
>
>But as I got there, I was woundering, what kind of hate do the Israelis have
>and how can a human being be so crewl? ... Pro-Israelis ... Please elaborate.
>I realy want to know how much would an average Israeli hate Arabs.

Yes, but you are not telling the whole story.  This was the action of 2
people.  This video was also shown on Israeli TV, and there was outrage
among Jewish Israelis about this.  And there was an investigation into
the incident.  You are using the actions of two people to condemn a whole
nation, like earlier you tried to use the actions of Kahana to condemn
all of Israel.  So the Israeli public does not think that this is acceptible.

Now, why don't you tell the story of how when the roof collapses in
Jerusalem, Arabs and Jews worked together to rescue people, wheras
Arab children threw stones at the rescuers.  Who hates who?
Why don't you tell the stories about how Hadassah hospital, in Jerusalem,
frequently treats Arabs from other countries who have no diplomatic
relations with Israel, or how Israel arranges for Arabs from Israel
to go to Mecca?  These stories indicate good will, and not hatred.

No one is denying that some Israeli Jews hate Arabs or mistreat Arabs.
The question is "How is the behavior looked upon by the rest of Israel?"
In many cases, Jews who mistreat or kill Arabs are condemned and punished
by Israel.  But I don't see the opposite happening.  The only case of
any Arab being punished and/or condemned for actions against a Jew is
the case of the Egyptian soldier who shot Israeli tourists in the Sinai.

If Egypt and Israel didn't have relations, I don't think Egypt would have
convicted him, and people refer to him as a hero, and I spoke to someone
on campus who explained how the tourists were at fault.  

The question is not whether some Israelis hate Arabs.  The question is
whether Israel as a whole should be condemned for the actions of a few.
But the hatred of Jewish Israelis by Arab governments and groups is
official policy in many places, so those who do violence against Jews
are not exception, but are the rule.

That is why the reponse to 
	"There are Arabs who advocate violence against Jews"
	"Yes but there is Kahana"
doesn't work.

Kahana is not mainstream anything.  Arafat is, and I could give other
examples.

And when people mention Kahana, they don't mention all the Jewish Israelis
who protested against him, many times side by side with Arabs.   Or that
he got only 1% of the vote, or that he was put in jail, or that he was
not allowed to go to certain places, etc.  

And they don't discuss how the government, in response to the threat
of this kind of extremism, had courses in the schools of the importance
of tolerance and democracy, and how schools sponsored programs for 
Arab and Jewish school-children to have joint social activities, or to
visit each other's town and families.

And when they mention Sabra and Chatilla, they don't mention that almost 
10% of the Jewish Israeli population protested afterwards and demanded an
investigation. 

And when they mention the territories, they don't mention that Meretz,
(Mapai, Ratz, and CRM) which favors handing back the territories probably 
will get 10% in the elections.  And although some Israelis call them names, 
no one is shooting them for disagreeing with their policy, or silencing
them.  

There is a focus on only one aspect of Israeli society, and this is used
to condemn all of it.  And Benham tried to do the same thing recently
concerning the behavior of Zionists in the 1930's.

Has there been any public pressure or demonstration in any Arab country
for better treatment of Jews or better relations to Israel?
Have they those who murder Jews been punished?  Or are they called
heroes?

>-- 
>______________________________________________________________________________
>                                                                             _
>Marwan Gharaybeh:                         ||                               _(_ 
>                                          ||               | |               |

Leon Gross
I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast