From: caf@omen.UUCP (Chuck Forsberg)
Newsgroups: sci.med
Subject: Re: Adiposity 101
Date: 31 Dec 92 16:48:45 GMT
Article-I.D.: omen.1992Dec31.164845.1868
Organization: Omen Technology INC, Portland Rain Forest

In article <1992Dec31.073630.4292@spdcc.com> dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer) writes:
>In article <1992Dec31.063136.21570@omen.UUCP> caf@omen.UUCP (Chuck Forsberg) writes:
>>Actually the information appeared in the American Journal of
>>Clinical Nutrition, the mouthpiece of the diet establishment,
>>virtually the sole source of papers Gordon uses to dispute some
>>of the points made in Adiposity 101.
>
>So?

I was responding to your jab about trivia in the IJO.

>
>>The 40-50% figure is what the author told me in a recent
>>telephone conversation.
>
>If they don't go into ketosis, what does it mean?  Frankly, it sounds

What it means is that the subject can't tolerate the diet, and drops out.
No problem for diet papers that ignore dropouts, but a bummer for the
individual.

>like a miracle drug: "new research means that people on the Atkins Diet
>need not have bad breath which kills at 50 paces."  Listen, if you weigh
>400# and eat 1500 kcal/day as hamburger, you're going to lose weight,
>ketosis or no ketosis.
>
>>I did find a few references to citric acid and metabolism in the
>>literature.  It is not just another carbohydrate.
>
>I said it was metabolized _like_ a carbohydrate.  More properly, it's
>metabolized like citric acid.
>
>>The paper is in Am J of Clin Nutr 1992;56:217S-23S.  It has some
>>rather interesting findings about VLCD and their remarkable
>>sensitivity to tiny variations in CHO.  Wouldn't hurt to read it.
>
>You mean if people add 1/2 a scoop more of their infernal powder
>to their morning concoction this makes a difference?  This is
>princess and pea material.  Why can't people be as anal-compulsive
>about the three or four donuts they used to eat daily for breakfast
>(and the remaining from the dozen for snacks during the day) when
>they weren't dieting?

No Steve.  Kreitzman is not talking about an extra 1/2 scoop of
powder per day.  "dietetic beverages, such as diet cola, or
slices of lemon in water.  ...  Although present only in small
amounts, it appears that citric acid might be the offending
substance possibly because of the known ability of citrate to
control carbohydrate metabolism at the cellular level."

>
>The abstract of this paper doesn't indicate that its focus is
>citric acid or carbohydrates at all, but on body composition
>changes during VLCDs.  I'm planning to look at it when I get
>the chance, but I am a bit suspicious that you've taken this
>citric acid stuff out of context.

Frankly this citrate stuff does seem a modest proposal.
I have not misrepresented what he wrote and said; if anything
I understated it.

>
>>And just who does have such an intelligent filter?  Let the one
>>with a statistically significant long term cure rate cast the first stone.
>
>What I'm worried about is that you've taken an unimportant side comment
>about citric acid and imbued it with unwarranted importance, importance
>which even the author didn't forsee.  S/he has an "intelligent filter",
>most of the educated readers of Am J of Clin Nutr have an "intelligent
>filter", Gordon and I have an "intelligent filter", but you don't, as
>far as I can see.

Kreitzman makes the point that subtle factors in a ketogenic diet
can have a profound effect on diet compliance.  If compliance is
unimportant to success on a food restriction diet, what, Steve, is?

>
>>Until there's a cure (or even a safe and effective treatment)
>>many will use VLCD and/or Atkins.  As reported on the net, results
>>with Atkins have been spotty.  Switching from Diet Coke to Dr
>>Pepper might help some of them.
>
>The only people I've seen who have mentioned Atkins are you and Yazz,
>and it worked for him.  And I hope you meant Diet Dr. Pepper.

It was fine for Yazz, less so for me, and not at all for Banks.  It was a
disaster for "sojourner".  That's about a 30% short-term success rate,
with no long-term successes so far.  Suffice it to say, next time I'm on
Atkins or VLCD and the Ketostix lose their color, out goes the Cola and in
comes Dr. Pepper and/or black tea.

-- 
Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX          ...!tektronix!reed!omen!caf 
Author of YMODEM, ZMODEM, Professional-YAM, ZCOMM, and DSZ
  Omen Technology Inc    "The High Reliability Software"
17505-V NW Sauvie IS RD   Portland OR 97231   503-621-3406
Newsgroups: sci.med