HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: AS.AAM@forsythe.stanford.edu (Astrid Mustard)
Subject: Re: something I just wanted to complain about
Organization: Stanford University, California, USA
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 14:59:54 GMT

In article <2A65EED2.17709@noiro.acs.uci.edu>,
cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese) writes:
>This has minimally to do with the current discussion about damaging
>fantasies, BUT . . .
>
>I've been getting very supportive e-mail about my position lately, but
>not one person (I think, and I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm wrong)
>has posted to support my position publicly.


Janis,

I wish I had saved my e-mail to you from when you originally posted
it, but I agree with you completely.  But then, I have never liked
fitting into people's images (it gets me into trouble, but I can't
help it) so I am happy with my real-live-woman's body.
Unfortunately, it's hard to find clothes that are made for
functioning in normal everyday life, since most women's clothes seem
to be made only for standing still - but that's ok, I'll survive.

But changes (like Janis has been suggesting) take generations, not
days.  Those of us who agree with her, can start now to enlighten
others of our opinions, and if they agree they can pass it on.  But
it would be worse for whatever cause one has to present it in a
negative light because word passes much quicker when it's negative
and such a thing would be self defeating.  I mention this because
people have noted that things don't change fast enough, or that such
ideas are kind of hopeless because society at large is well molded
into what it has become.  It may be hopeless for some of us as
individuals, but what we do today affects our children and their
children, etc., and our culture & our world.

So, Janis - although I didn't agree with you about the Arnold & Jean
Claud Van Damm (Damn) thing (you said those movies were for men &
that women didn't like them) - I agree with you on this and many
other things.  You have my support.

Astrid
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: klotz@lclark.edu (Gretchen Klotz)
Subject: Re: Oppression is Oppression is Oppression...
Organization: Lewis & Clark College, Portland OR
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 18:15:32 GMT

Thanks to Wolfe for the dictionary definition of racism.  A clearly stated
definition of racism *is* missing from the booklet.  Amoja distinguishes
between racism and racial predjudice, based on the amount of power one has
in society, while the dictionary combines the two under racism.  I will
pass on your feedback. 

BB,

- Gretchen
-- 
Gretchen Klotz					       Computing Services 
klotz@lclark.edu				    Lewis & Clark College
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe)
Subject: Re: Overthrow "THE MAN" symbolically, was (Who cares)
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 08:02:39 GMT

Frank.Perricone@f814.n355.z1.therose.pdx.com (Frank Perricone) writes:

>OK, that being established, what's a person to do?  Here are some ideas, but
>they're all pretty lame:

>* Fix myself.  Well, I don't think I'm prejudiced.  Sometimes I find myself

This is not lame.  This is the core of all possible growth.  We all need to fix
ourselves of all sorts of things.  As we get more fixed in us, we will be able 
to help others fix themselves.  From this community we will build, all other
action we need to take can spring.  Until we strive for internal clarity, no
amount of political action, legal change, etc. will do much of anything.

My mother would deny to the death that she is racist, but I grew up with the
idea that what was needed was social programs to make those poor, oppressed,
Black folks just like us happy upper-middle class Whites.  Blacks would be
just fine if they were educated to fit in better.  This is shit.

As long as we assume that our way, whatever that is, is the right way for all
people, we are going to perpetuate isms.  If we can learn to respect other 
peoples ways (without claiming them for ourselves), then we can move forward.

But it all starts within.  Until I have a clear sense of power-from-within in
an area of my life, I will not let go of the power-over/powerlessness (which
are two sides of the same coin) I have been taught.  Only after I have that
sense of power-from-within can I really give myself to power-with.  (All
technical terms from Starhawk's _Dreaming the Dark: Magic, Sex and Politics_.
This is not a book on Wicca, it is on group dynamics and what is going on in
our culture.  Since she is a Witch, it is consistent with pagan philophy, but
it is profitable reading for anyone who really wants to build a healthier
world.  Frank, you asked what you can do--here's a place to start. :) )

              Merry meet, merry part, merry meet again,
                               Br'anArthur

Queer, Peculiar, and Wyrd! :-)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: mkkuhner@phylo.genetics.washington.edu (Mary K. Kuhner)
Subject: Re: Morality
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 07:36:58 GMT

c1741@moncol.monmouth.edu (MICHAEL CARSON) writes:

[one party to a monogomous relationship violates the agreement]

>	For starters, yes Ithink somebody has been wronged in the above example.
>My question is how to express this.  "An ye harm none.." is a beautify phrasing
>for a rough philosphy, but I can't see how it covers the above situation.  I
>intended to add to the above example that the betrayed one never finds out.
>Thus, there is no real harm to him/her,  but it still seems to me that there is
>something wrong here.

For starters, is it really possible to deceive someone with whom you are
intimate, long-term, without damaging that intimacy?  It means there are
things you can't discuss with your partner, experiences you can't
mention, feelings and memories you can't share.  This harms the other
person even if s/he never figures out what went wrong--the relationship
loses intimacy and energy because of the necessity to cover up lies.

There is an excellent book, _Lying_ by Sisella Bok, which talks about
who might be hurt by any given lie.  She suggests looking in three
places.  The person lied to can clearly be hurt, because they're working
on false information, and because if they find out they'll feel betrayed
and wronged, and lose trust.  The person lying can also be hurt, losing
their capacity to trust others (after all, if I'd be unfaithful to her,
how can I believe she's faithful to me?)  And society can be hurt,
because the social contract depends in large part on people generally
telling the truth.  Each lie damages the general atmosphere in which we
live, though it may be a very small damage.  Think about the difference
between doing business in a city where you trust most vendors and a city 
in which you feel you have to be on your guard every instant or you'll be 
conned, gypped, or defrauded.

I don't think this type of deception is harmless even if the one
deceived never finds out (an unlikely outcome, in any case).

Storm/Mary Kuhner mkkuhner@genetics.washington.edu
From: cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
Subject: Re: a neat-looking star I saw recently
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: 22 Jul 92 21:53:54 GMT

In article <711716686.F00007@therose.pdx.com> Frank.Perricone@f814.n355.z1.therose.pdx.com (Frank Perricone) writes:
>In a message dated 20 Jul 92  14:54:15, Ellen Keyne Seebacher wrote:
>
>>>[Janis asks about herbs for menstrual cramps]
>>I've heard chewing on a small twig from a willow tree will help.
>
> EK> Sure, if you want to spend an outrageous amount of time and effort
> EK> obtaining aspirin:  willow bark is the "natural" source of salicylates
> EK> now synthesized as plain, ordinary aspirin tablets.
>
>Well, yes, it makes sense that that would be the source, but I don't see where
>the "outrageous amount of time and effort" come in, you just go pick up a twig
>from next to a willow tree, make sure there are no unappetizing bugs on it,
>stick it in your mouth, and chew.  Of course, if your problem with bottled
>aspirin is an allergy or something, this probably won't help, but I thought
>Janis was concerned about not "popping aspirin like they were M&Ms" (or
>something like that), not an allergy or something.
>
>BTW thanks for the info, I didn't realize that that was why willow bark was
>effective (or the other way around, perhaps).
>

There's only one problem with this; if I have to pop aspirin (actually
Advil or Nuprin -- ibuprofen is a muscle relaxer) like M&M's before I
get relief, the chewing on a willow twig won't do much unless I eat the
whole tree.

I was looking for something good and strong, but more natural.

Blessings,
Janis


Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: ciaran@county.lmt.mn.org (Ciaran Benson)
Subject: Re: Firewalk
Reply-To: ciaran@county.lmt.mn.org (Ciaran Benson)
Organization: LaserMaster Technologies, Minneapolis, MN
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 92 21:30:56 GMT

Dear Richard;

  Beautiful story, and empowering.

  Facing fear and passing over it, through it, and allowing it to
wash over you -- allowing yourself to accept it as a part of
yourself, is sometimes harder than anything else.

  It's funny how thinks like "hot" and "cold" change in rituals.
Down at the Pagan Spirit Gathering that Circle does I've seen
people start the evening at the edges of a camp, as far away from
the fire as possible.  Then by the evening's end they're dancing
over, around, and through the fire.  Leaning over it and into
it like it was cool water.

  By midnight I'm usually there too, washing my hands in the
flames with drums and the dancers and the world spinning around.

  Being an amateur blacksmith, I really dig fire.

  A steering wheel sitting in the sun some days is way too hot
to even think about touching.

  But a 400-degree black-hot iron rod with the spirit of Bridget in
you?  Like picking up a leaf fallen from a popular tree.

  But walk across fire?  Actually put my weight on it and stand
on it and force myself to accept the ability to do it?

  Reading your story, I think I'd like to face that fear too.

  Maybe up here in the north a similar trial might be wading
through lake Superior along the north shore -- or even worse,
swimming from an isle to the shore ... brrr! ;)

  Blessed be, Ciaran.


Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: hengist@atheling.demon.co.uk (Peter Wilkinson)
Subject: a neat-looking star I saw recently 
Distribution: world
Organization: Atheling Computer Services
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 19:01:20 +0000

> You can also buy willow bark capsules -- my guess is that a bottle of 100
> would run about double the cost of a bottle of 100 no-name aspirin, but...
> Try checking your local health food store.
> 
> -Liz Cuddihy
> -- 
> ******isthereafireinthesky*****isthereamoonupthere*****isanythingalightnow****
>  cuddihy@cshl.org  <>  Gin ye ca' me fairy, I'll wark ye muckle tarrie,
>  disclaim nothing  <>  Gin guid neibour ye ca' me, Then guid neibour I'll be.
> ****thisdarknesshearswhatihear***thisisabreathlesssilence***amomentoutoftime**
> 
Willow bark isn't all that expensive - roughly about the same cost as the
heavy duty painkillers (the ibuprofen ones).  A former SO of mine always
used to drink willow bark tea when she had period pains and she swore by
it (I can't stand the taste though so I always put tons of honey in it :-) )

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pete Wilkinson                       |   "We feel like Greeks,
Email hengist@atheling.demon.co.uk   |    We feel like Romans,
      petwil@cix.compulink.co.uk     |    Centaurs and monkeys,
      CompuServe 100031,73           |    Just cluster round us."  
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com (Ailsa N.T. Murphy)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Who cares
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 92 10:15:50 EST
Organization: Ailanthus Project

tmhoff@oogoody.Corp.Sun.COM (Todd Hoff) writes:

> In article 25296@geppetto.encore.com, aaldrich@geppetto.encore.com (Al Aldric
> >tmhoff@oogoody.Corp.Sun.COM (Todd Hoff) writes:
> >
> >I am hearing a lot of defensiveness about the injustice of being one of
> >the priveleged and getting blamed for it..so let me play a little
> >devil's advocate here..
> >
> >:-)
> >
> 
> You bet I'm defensive. Are not blacks defensive about racism? Is it PC
> to blame people for things they didn't do? I thought the sins of the father
> thing went out 2000 years ago.
> 
bloody hell.  saved the article where i meant to continue.  anyway black 
people are not defensive about racism, white people are.

> >It's good that you do't/didn't do all of the above, but NOT doing is as
> >good as condoning in practice.
> >
> 
> I reject this out of hand. You are witch burning and don't even realize it.
> 

bullshit.  all that is necessary for evil to flourish is for good people 
to do nothing.  what are YOU doing?  how are you trying to rescind your 
white priivelege?  as a white formerly middle-class, formerly protestant 
lesbian, some of the original list of 'didn't do it' stuff applies to me 
too, but *I* at least realize that i have a part to play in disavowing my 
part in it besides bitching on a newsgroup.  liek writing my 
congresspeople to tell them that i do NOT support US policies.  like not 
voting for peopel who support anti-human policies.  like speaking out 
against -isms whenever they come up.  (like a friend of mine who likes to 
tell black baby jokes.  'friendly acquaintance' now...)  like paying 
attention to the consequences of your actions.  like at least REALIZING 
that you HAVE white male privelege, instead of assuming that the only 
people that do are george bush and dan quayle.  in my case white butch 
privelege, but there is definite privelege attached to being butch.  
peopl pay more attention to me when i speak than the do to femmes, and i 
get taken a lot more seriously, for instance.
 
                                       -ailsa

ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com   or   io81409@maine.maine.edu
 
are you on fire         what will replace the rent with the stars above,
from the years,         replace the need with love,
what will you give      replace the anger with the tide,
for your kid fears?     replace the ones, the ones, the ones that you love?
From: ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com (Ailsa N.T. Murphy)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: curious
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 92 09:27:17 EST
Organization: Ailanthus Project

as7y+@andrew.cmu.edu (Andrew E. Switala) writes:

> I'm not pagan (at least not yet), and I have two questions that might
> help me decide if paganism is for me.
> 
well, they're pretty easy questions...

> First, is/are there any pagan religion(s) at all that place no emphasis
> whatsoever on sex, sex referring to both the quality and the act.
> 
none that i know of.

> Second, are some, all, or none of the pagan religions considered to be
> organized religion?

none that i know of.  oops, santeria is organized.  but outside of 
that...
                             -ailsa

ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com   or   io81409@maine.maine.edu
 
are you on fire         what will replace the rent with the stars above,
from the years,         replace the need with love,
what will you give      replace the anger with the tide,
for your kid fears?     replace the ones, the ones, the ones that you love?
From: Frank.Perricone@f814.n355.z1.therose.pdx.com (Frank Perricone)
Sender: postmaster@therose.pdx.com
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: I before E...
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1992 10:26:00 -0700

In a message dated 23 Jul 92  13:08:00, Leo Smith wrote:

 LS> Except after C AND of especial interets to this group...

 LS> DEITY
 LS> WEIRD

And let's not forget society, as in...

I before E except after C
We sure live in a WEIRD SOCIETY

:)

Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: radzy@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU (Tim Radzykewycz)
Subject: Re: Thanks (Was Re: Firewalk)
Organization: International Computer Science Institute, Berkeley, CA, U.S.A.
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 16:44:17 GMT

In article <15604@ucdavis.ucdavis.edu> darsie@eecs.ucdavis.edu (Richard Darsie) writes:
> Sorry for the bandwidth waste, but my mail to Donal bounced.
> So, Donal, THANK YOU so much for your supportive words. It means a lot. 
> I was dismayed at Tim O'Neil's rudeness. How dare he try to invalidate
> my experience! ...
> 
> Richard Darsie
> (Tuneweaver)

Don't be sorry, and it isn't a waste of bandwidth.  Hopefully Tim
will think about the effects his postings will have on others,
before he posts in the future, and the world will gain.

Keep posting!  Keep up the stuff you do to empower yourself!  And
keep sharing that power with others, so that they can benefit
from your experiences, too!  (In other words, remain the wonderful
person you are, and don't let this incident diminish you.)

Blessings!

------------------------------------------------------------
					|  An it harm none,
	-- radzy			|  do as ye will.
					|
	Tim Omelan Radzykewycz     	|  "Just pray for a
	The Incredible Radical Cabbage	|  tough hide and a
					|  tender heart."
	radzy@cogsci.berkeley.edu       |    -- Ruth Graham
					|
------------------------------------------------------------
> Hi! I am a .signature virus. Copy me into your .signature to join in!
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: shaman@cix.compulink.co.uk (Leo Smith)
Subject: I before E...
Reply-To: shaman@cix.compulink.co.uk
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 13:08:00 +0000


Except after C AND of especial interets to this group...

DEITY
WEIRD

irritation mode off..... :-)
From: lori@umbio.med.miami.edu (Lori Herrington)
Subject: CNN...Sonya Live
Organization: University of Miami Medical School
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 19:48:05 GMT

Did anyone happen to catch sonya live today (friday the 31) on CNN.  She
had on a practicing Wiccian and a prist...debating and answering
questions from call ins.  I was happy to see Wicca getting some positive
exposure...I was impressed with CNN.  The minister was very closed
minded condemning and judgeing ...but that is to be expected.

Anyway...If it is on again...I recommend watching, and if its the fuel
for a new topic of conversation I would be happy to participate..

Thanks

Lori
-- 
lori@umbio.med.miami.edu

******************************

From: Frank.Perricone@f814.n355.z1.therose.pdx.com (Frank Perricone)
Sender: postmaster@therose.pdx.com
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: vegetarianism
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1992 17:31:00 -0700

In a message dated 19 Jul 92  13:31:26, Stephen R. Figgins wrote:

> : I think this is pretty natural actually.  I suppose if you gave a
> : child an apple and a bunny, the child would most likely play with the
> : bunny and eat the apple. 
> 
> If you gave both to a very young child, the first thing the child would
> do would be to try to put them into its mouth. So, the natural thing is
> to attempt to eat them.

 SR> Is that why they put things in their mouths?  To eat them?  Or do they
 SR> just want to taste touch and feel?  In any case that young of a child
 SR> would probably not eat either of them. 

The nervous system of a child gives the greatest sensitivity in the mouth area. 
Actually, even as adults, the lips are among the best nerve endings for
measuring heat differences and such.  I think it's safe to say babies are just
being curious.

Of course, that doesn't help the conversation much, just felt like throwing that
out.

Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: rna@crystal.med.umn.edu (Ryan Alexander (BMEC))
Subject: Re: Who cares
Organization: University of Minnesota
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 13:31:50 GMT

In article <V4gBoB5w164w@ailanth.UUCP> ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com (Ailsa N.T. Murphy) writes:
>tmhoff@oogoody.Corp.Sun.COM (Todd Hoff) writes:
>
>> You bet I'm defensive. Are not blacks defensive about racism? Is it PC
>> to blame people for things they didn't do? I thought the sins of the father
>> thing went out 2000 years ago.
>> 
>your analogy is fucked.  black people are not defensive about racism, as 
>they do not practice it.  they defend themselves against racism, a 
>completely different thing.

	You are commiting a form or racism by stating that 'all blacks' do or
do not do any particular action.  I *know* that it happens.	
	What makes you think that any given race is incapeable of wrong 
doing?


|RNA (DNA's bad-ass sidekick)   / "Decency?!  I am a pirate!
|Internet: rna@ epx.cis.umn.edu/       I don't _do_ 'decency'!"
|			      /           - Don Carnage
From: pharvey@mipos3.intel.com (Paul Harvey)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: stereotypes - and a request
Date: 22 Jul 92 22:27:09 GMT
	<12405@inews.intel.com> <1992Jul22.152518.1706@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU>

pharvey@mipos3.intel.com (Paul Harvey) writes:
maybe women do have a vicious side and have just been pretending
to be sweet all these years, I just don't see it.

radzy@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU (Tim Radzykewycz) writes:
Of course they do, Paul!  They're human, and they have all the same
qualities that the rest of humanity has: viciousness, greed, lust,
sympathy, love, honor, and all kinds of other things.
Paul: if you don't see *all* those things in *any* group of people,
whether it's women, blacks, men, indians (either kind), Russians,
or any other group of people, then there is one of two problems:
1) you don't know very many of them at all, or you don't know any
of them very well, or
2) you refuse to see the way they truly are.
With the kind of postings I've seen from you, I suspect you're guilty
of putting women (in general) up on a pedestal, that is, you refuse
to see the way they truly are.


----
Hmm. Would you find all those qualities in Buddhist monks? Catholic nuns?
Tribal people? I just don't know G. I have never in my life been physically
threatened by women, I can not say the same of men. I've known some whom
others might call dikes or scooter trash or hoes or even the great Southern
expresion; cheap white trash. I guess I just don't hang out in the right
neighborhoods. Berkeley must have really changed since I was up there last
month. Has the People's Republic been overrun by women already? Meet the
new boss, same as the old boss, eh?