HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: walker@sun.soe.clarkson.edu (Graham Walker, 227 West Old Main,268-3847,)
Subject: Re: Scots or Picts (was Celtic alchoholism?)
Organization: Clarkson University
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 15:51:35 GMT

From article <1992Sep10.033849.13907@cos.com>, by cooper@cos.com (Gary Cooper):
> In <92239.193651ATDYW@ASUACAD.BITNET> Dan Wilson <ATDYW@ASUACAD.BITNET> writes:
> 
>>Wasn't Robert de Brus' mother a Celt? I seem to recall he relied heavily on
>>his Celtic blood to gain the confidence of the Highland Chiefs that he
>>needed so deperately.
> 
> Yes she was - and since, I believe, the Celts were a somewhat
> matriarchal society, shouldn't the census check through the
> mother through about 250 generations? :>  
> -- 
> gary cooper (not the dead one)     "Non Dignis Sum!" - Waynus and Gartus 

Whether they were matriarchal, we should not ignore the female "component"
of anyones heritage.

																GW
From: downey@enh.nist.gov
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: RE:  What Clan and What Tartan
Date: 11 Sep 92 01:22:39 GMT
Organization: NIST


Matt,

Will you please let people have some fun!  It's OK if someone wants
to find out what tartan is "supposed to be" their family tartan.
As Morna said, Ms. Bonham does not need (and IMHO does not deserve)
your harsh words.  Why do you find it so difficult to let people
make a connection with the past?  So what, if it's a little
romantic or somewhat of a fantasy?  If someone wants to become
a scholar on Cetlic history, they can.  If they don't want to,
why do you insist on forcing them?

BTW, Morna, I hope your comment about "ignorant Americans" was in
jest.  :-)

Laura Downey
From: moisan@cicb.fr (Herve Moisan -  stagiaire CICB)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Breton is a britonnic language
Date: 9 Sep 92 09:19:50 GMT
Organization: CICB, Universite' de Rennes I, FR

Keywords: 


Yes breton is an insular celtic language because bretons came from
Britain.
it is not a continental celtic language in the linguistic sense.
but a britonnic language.

sure, breton is a continental language in a geographically sense ....

it is not so difficult to understand !
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
From: emcmanus@gr.osf.org (Eamonn McManus)
Subject: Bonham
Organization: Open Software Foundation Research Institute, Grenoble
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 13:12:15 GMT

Aengus Lawlor <RBYAML@rohvm1.rohmhaas.com> writes:
>I'm not sure you want to hear this, but, as far as I can remember, 'bonham'
>is Irish for 'piglet'. (Though it is pronounced 'bonav' so logic tells me
>that it should be spelt 'bonamh' but that's not how I remember it).

Bonham is a word used in English by some Irish people to mean piglet.
The normal Irish word (at least in Munster Irish) is banbh, which is
indeed pronounced as Aengus indicates.  I don't have access to a
sufficiently good dictionary to be able to say whether "bonham" comes
from some dialectic variant of this.

,
Eamonn
From: ah@dunaad.co.uk (Alan Hunter)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Tax Collection
Summary: Lord of the Isles, tax collection techniquesY
Date: 8 Sep 92 06:44:43 GMT
Organization: Johnson Hunter Limited


In the Ileach ("The Newspaper of the Islay and Jura Council for Voluntary
Service") of November 21 we had:

One of the happy consequences of last year's refurbushment of Port Ellen
Maltings by United Distillers was that a piece odf waste ground has been
dedicated to public use -- and a piece of Islay's history recalled.

The waste ground between the mailtings and the waters of Port Ellen bay is
the site of the original 'Money Rock' cairn or 'Creag an Airgid' --- at
which rent and rates were paid to the Lord of the Isles. Tenants would
congregate on Islay from all the other islands to pay their dues on the
appointed day - gold and silver at the 'Money Rock'; chickens, vegetables
and other payments in kind at another site nearby.

--end quote--


I'm curious as to what extent tax collection was done by "progress" (go
and stay with people till you've eaten them out of house and home), to
what extent by tax collectors and how they did it. Relying on people to
bring taxes to you (as suggested by the Ileach article) and the
bureaucracy that is required to make such a system workable is outwith my
previous assumptions of this period. 

Alan


-- 
Alan Hunter
Johnson Hunter Ltd
Isle of Islay, Scotland
A.Hunter@dunaad.co.uk          fax: +44-496-2336         voice: +44-496-2286
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
From: seanr@spock.retix.com (Sean MacRoibeaird)
Subject: Apologies - this is a test !!!!
Organization: Retix, Santa Monica CA
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 21:35:21 GMT

-- 

=======================================================================
The views expressed here are mine, and mine  alone. If you want to know
my employer's opinion - ask him.
From: charles@nmr.ion.bpmf.ac.uk (Dr. Charles Davie)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: e IRISH SOCIETIES IN LONDON
Summary: Does anyone have details of IRISH Societies in London for the "crack"
Date: 11 Sep 92 13:06:46 GMT
Reply-To: charles@nmr.ion.bpmf.ac.uk
Organization: Institute of Neurology NMR Research Group, London, UK.

Charlie
Keywords: 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic,soc.culture.china,soc.culture.esperanto,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.japan,soc.culture.misc,talk.religion.misc
From: irfan@maxwell.ece.wisc.edu (Irfan Alan)
Subject: ONENESS AND UNIQUENESS OF THE CREATOR, AND THE PURPOSE OF CREATION
Organization: Univ. of Wisconsin-Madison; Electrical & Computer Engineering
Distribution: usa
Date: 4 Sep 92 17:42:17 CDT
From: emcmanus@gr.osf.org (Eamonn McManus)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Celtic Celebrations
Date: 15 Sep 92 12:17:06 GMT
Organization: Open Software Foundation Research Institute, Grenoble

cindyd@paradise.Eng.Sun.COM writes:
>I need help with the pronunciation of the words Beltaine and Samhain.
>I've also seen them spelled Beltane, Beltine, Samain, etc. What's the
>preferred spelling and pronunciation? I was told Samhain is "sow-an"
>and Beltaine is "bel-ti-nuh". Is this correct? Does Beltaine have 3
>syllables? Would you call Beltaine a Springtime celebration, and
>Samhain a Fall celebration? Thank you.

Craig Cockburn has already followed up with information about Scottish
Gaelic.  In Irish, the words are "Bealtaine" (pronounced roughly
BYALt@ny@h or BYOWLt@ny@h, where the @ is a fast indistinct vowel and
the ny is a palatalised n like Spanish n~); and "Samhain" (pronounced
roughly "SOW-@n" or just "SOWN").  (I use OW as in yowl, not bowl.)

In modern Irish these words are used as the names for the months of
May and November, respectively, which gives you an idea of when the
corresponding feast-days were.  Another (lesser) feast is Lughnasa
(rendered as Lu/nasa in the new spelling; pronounced LOOn@s@), which
is now used to mean August.

,
Eamonn
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
From: aa779@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Dana Lynn Gilliland)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Celtic Ceol's Fall Lineup (Cleveland)
Date: 6 Sep 1992 03:42:49 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: slc4.ins.cwru.edu


 
Celtic Ceol and WRUW 91.1 FM
Coming Attractions
All tickets $10.00 in advance and $12.00 at the door
Ticket outlets:  Goose Acres, Bookstore on West 25th Street, Gaelic
Imports and all Booksellers.
 
 
 
Two of Ireland's leading exponents of traditional music and song
Cathal McConnell
and
Len Graham
A principal member of the internationally acclaimed ensemble, The Boys
of the Lough, Cathal McConnell is one of the best flute and whistle
players in Ireland.
Len Graham is acknowledged as one of the foremost authorities on Irish
music.  He is a winner of the All-Ireland traditional singing
competition and is a member of the internationally reknowned folk group
Skylark.
Together, McConnell and Graham celebrate the wealth of their common
tradition of music and song.
Thursday, September 17th at 7:30 p.m.
Harkness Chapel - CWRU
 
 
Scotland's
Tannahill Weavers
One of the premier groups on the folk concert stage.  From reflective
ballads to footstomping reels and jigs, the variety and range of
material they perform is matched only by their enthusiasm and lively
Celtic spirits.
"There is not Celtic group which can match the enigmatic Tannahill
Weavers for pure excitement."
                       --- Fairfield County Advocate
 
Sunday, September 27th at 7:30 p.m.
Harkness Chapel - CWRU
 
 
 
Forward With Scotland's Past:
The Battlefield Band
Inspired by their rich heritage of Celtic music and fired by the
strength of today's Scottish cultural scene, Battlefield Band have
created a music of rare passion, relevance and joy.
An outstanding opportunity to see the Battlefield Band's newest member,
John McCusker, a young Scots fiddler who is taking Great Britain by
storm.
Tuesday, November 10th at 7:30 p.m. at Ford Auditorium.
 
 
For more information, call 687-0050.
 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
From: cockburn@edieng.enet.dec.com (Craig Cockburn)
Subject: Re: Celtic Celebrations
Organization: Digital Equipment Co. Ltd., Reading, England
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1992 17:17:35 GMT


In article <lb1j0uINN7cu@appserv.Eng.Sun.COM>, cindyd@paradise.Eng.Sun.COM (Cindy Derafshan) writes...
>I need help with the pronunciation of the words Beltaine and Samhain.
>I've also seen them spelled Beltane, Beltine, Samain, etc. What's the
>preferred spelling and pronunciation? I was told Samhain is "sow-an"
>and Beltaine is "bel-ti-nuh". Is this correct? Does Beltaine have 3
>syllables? Would you call Beltaine a Springtime celebration, and
>Samhain a Fall celebration? Thank you.
> 
The names of these festivals will occur in Scottish, Irish and Manx
Gaelic. Each of these Gaelics has a wide range of pronounciation and
taken together the range is enormous.

The different spellings you have seen could be authentic Gaelic spellings
Vs Anglicised spellings in English. For preferred spelling, are you after
the spelling in any particular Gaelic, or is it English you're using?

My Scottish Gaelic dictionary gives the following spellings, pronounciations
and meanings:

Bealltainn, byual'-tinn  May Day. From Irish "beltene"
Samhuinn,   sav'-im (I would say "sa-win" myself). Hallowtide, the feast of
All Souls. Possibly from the origin "sam+fuin" = end of summer

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Craig Cockburn, Digital Equipment Co. Ltd, Reading, England.     Suas
  Internet: cockburn@edieng.enet.dec.com                           leis
  UUCP:..!decwrl!edieng.enet.dec.com!cockburn                      a'
                                                                   Gha\idhlig!
  Views here are my own, and are not necessarily those of Digital
From: rm4@st-andrews.ac.uk (Rosa Michaelson)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Celtic Cross
Summary: I agree with Mathew...
Date: 14 Sep 92 14:31:43 GMT
Organization: not interested in St. Andrews University

small peat fire flame on: WHY oh WHY blame Walter Scott for the current
wishfull thinkers who read more than exists into the invented past????
Scott DID NOT MYTHOLOGISE the celts....Malory took ROMANCE poetry based
a good few years earlier on oral trad and reinvented these cycles(probably
originally creation myths - see incest...) for the contemporary fashions OF
NON CELTIC upper clas twits. 
small peat fire flame off(cof cof cof cof cof cof..due to clouds of black smoke)
Mathew is correct - many people(including me) are fairly uneducated  or lazy 
about sources whne talking/writing about 'celts'. For an educated discussion
of the roots of 'nostalgic memories' see Umberto Eco's discussion of the late
60s and early 70s 'medaevil trip', in the penguin collection of essays that
includes delightfull writings on the problems of wearing blue jeans when 
middle-aged. The good news is that the past being a different country means
that it is still open to interpretation - and reinvention...
Not that that justifies the 'celtic harp revivial' or 'the pictish free state'! 
I am sure that Barbarians everywhere are also insulted by Conan the Barbarian...
From: camurphy@acsu.buffalo.edu (Cindy)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Scots or Picts (was Celtic alchoholism?)
Date: 12 Sep 92 23:04:21 GMT
Organization: UB

walker@sun.soe.clarkson.edu (Graham Walker, 227 West Old Main,268-3847,) writes:

>From article <BuF6qI.5Do@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk>, by dam@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (David Morning):
>> walker@sun.soe.clarkson.edu (Graham Walker, 227 West Old Main,268-3847,) writes:
>> I don't know how often I've heard this story about people painting their
>> bodies and rushing naked into battle.
>> Have these people any idea how cold it is here????
>> Hypothermia perhaps??

>I know it was not really paint, they were just blue from the cold
>(especially if they had just gone for a swim in the North sea at the
>high of summer).

i've heard that they weren't necessarily naked, but did practice
some kind of extensive tattooing/body decoration.  anyone
care to comment on this?  might want to skip over the
rec.arts.bodyart and see if anyone there has a fact or fiction
to contribute.  :)

>														GW

 Cynthia Murphy  camurphy@acsu.buffalo.edu   
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
From: rbv@cypress.com
Subject: Celtic languages
Organization: Cypress Semiconductor, San Jose, CA, USA
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 17:52:38 GMT

In <18ljabINNrq@agate.berkeley.edu>, swade@ocf.berkeley.edu (Wade Shen) writes:

	One thing that should be noted about Manx, much of its vocabulary is
	of welsh and old norse origins.  Even though it is classified as
	goidelic, much of its structure has been influenced by the brittonic
	languages.

I would like to see some references and examples for this statement.  Would
you show some constructions that favor Brythonic over Goidelic?

Roger
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
From: james@wrs.com (James Moore)
Subject: Re: What is Ireland's national anthem? Is there one?
Reply-To: james@wrs.com
Organization: Wind River Systems
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 23:57:56 GMT

mbrennan@bbn.com (Maeve Brennan) writes:

>I have no idea how proficient other nationalities are in singing
>their national anthem, so I would find it difficult to make
>comparisons.  I should think that Americans would be
>pretty good in this respect.

There's an old joke my grandfather used to tell about this one, from
when he was in the army.  When you got stopped by the guards coming
back into camp at night, they'd ask you to sing the second verse of
the Star Spangled Banner.  If you knew the words, you were shot
immediately as a spy - no real American has ever even *heard* the
words after the first verse...

I would guess that most Americans can lip-sync the anthem pretty well,
but singing it is another matter.  It's got a huge range, much to wide
for almost everyone.

-- 
James Moore                            /|\                        james@wrs.com
Wind River Systems                     \|/                  Alameda, California
	 "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half
			  didn't mean anything at all"
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
From: walker@sun.soe.clarkson.edu (Graham Walker, 227 West Old Main,268-3847,)
Subject: Celts, Picts, and Stuff
Organization: Clarkson University
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 18:41:55 GMT

It appears that Matthew is concerned about the level of scholarliness(?)
in this discussion, so heres a list of books that I suggest for no other
reason than that I have either read them or bits of them. List A are by
recognised scholars who work in universities, list B are accredited
"experts" in the field, and list C are others (but not fantasy, or such
stuff).

List A

The Celtic World by B. Cunliffe
Pub. Greenwich House (1986)
Author is a Prof. of Eur. Archaeology at Oxford.

The Celts by T.G.E. Powell
Pub. Thames and Hudson (1958)
Author Head of Prehist. Archaeology Dept. at Univ. Liverpool

Celtic Britain and Ireland by L. Laing & J. Laing
Pub. St. Martins Press (1990)
Author (L.L) Sen. Lect. in Archaeology Clasics & Arch. Dept. Univ.
Liverpool.

Celtic Art by V. Megan and R. Megan
Pub. Thames and Hudson (1989)
Author (V.M.) Ex. Chair. of Arch at Univ. of Leicester

The Celts by N. Chadwick
Pub. Pelican (1970)
Author Lect. in Early History at Cambridge

List B

The Rise of the Celts by H. Hubert
and
The Greatness and Decline of the Celts by H. Hubert
Pub. Constable (1934)
Author worked at Ecole des Hautes Etudes

The Pagan Celts by A. Ross
Pub. Barnes and Noble (1970)
Author 1st Class Honours in Celtic Antiquity from Edinburgh Univ.

List C

The Celts by G. Herm
Pub. St. Martins Press (1975)

The Celts by F. Delaney
Pub. Little Brown (1986)

Celtic Heritage by A. Rees and B. Rees
Pub. Thames and Hudson (1961)

Irish Druids and Old Irish Religions by J. Bonwich
Pub. Dorset (1894)

All date are first publication dates and author information may now be
out-of-date.

													GW
 

Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
From: RRSE50@waccvm.corp.mot.com (John Pigott)
Subject: Re: What is Ireland's national anthem?  Is there one?
Organization: Motorola
Date: 10 Sep 1992 08:34:44 MST

------------------------- Original Article -------------------------
From: oconnell@vms.macc.wisc.edu (Kevin Patrick O'Connell)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: What is Ireland's national anthem?  Is there one?
Date: 8 Sep 92 01:16:42 GMT
Organization: University of Wisconsin Academic Computing Center

How about it?   Is there a memorable recording of it?  Is it popular
among Irish citizens (not as a chart topper, but is it well thought
of)?

Kevin

PS--thanks to all who wrote about subscriptions to the Irish times!
It seems rather pricey right now, but I will start reading it at the
UW library and see how I like it.

Ireland's National Anthem is
Sine Laochra Fail
It means 'We are the warriors of Ireland'. It is in gaelic, and usually
played at sports fixtures etc.




Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
From: pgf@srl02.cacs.usl.edu (Phil G. Fraering)
Subject: Re: Scots or Picts (was Celtic alchoholism?)
Organization: Univ. of Southwestern Louisiana
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 17:45:05 GMT

walker@sun.soe.clarkson.edu (Graham Walker, 227 West Old Main,268-3847,) writes:


>My source (which I will provide later) isone of the present "experts" on the
>Picts and he would agree that the Picts (from the latin Picti which
>referred to the fact that men and women charged into battle naked and
>painted) were P-celts, but as I remember he argues that they used a
>matrilinear line of succession.

I suspect personally that it was a characteristic of the celts
in particular that they used whatever lineage they thought would
be conveinent at the time.

Well, I guess y'all know what I mean...

--
Phil Fraering pgf@srl0x.cacs.usl.edu where the x is a number from 1-5.
Phone: 318/365-5418 SnailMail: 2408 Blue Haven Dr., New Iberia, La. 70560
If seven maids with seven brooms swept for half a year,
do you think, the Walrus asked, that they could make it clear?
I doubt it, said the Carpenter, and shed a bitter tear.
---------
"NOAH!"                        \           \ Lewis Carrol
"Yes lord?"                     > Bill Cosby, The Story of Noah
"HOW LONG CAN YOU TREAD WATER?"/




Xref: sparky soc.culture.celtic:5823 alt.pagan:8862
From: vlaad@brewich.hou.tx.us (Vlaad Thunarsson)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic,alt.pagan
Subject: Re: free lionfood! (was: Celtic Cross)
Date: Sun, 06 Sep 92 00:54:37 CDT
Organization: The Brewer's Witch BBS, +1 713 272 7350, Brewich.Hou.TX.US

> IMHO some of the more successful christian missionary efforts have
> been with the understanding that you couldn't (and shouldn't) strip away a
> people's culture in the name of conversion.  This is likely to mean
> incorporating holidays and symbols that previously held other meanings.
> This continues today.  There are Catholics in New Guinea who worship with
> a very different cultural flavor then members of the same religion elsewhere.
> 

IMHO, this is not the case at all.  I have laying around here somewhere a 
translation from the current Pope who was having correspondence with one 
of his missionary/disciples.  I will get the source if requested.  It 
seems the missionary was having some difficulty getting the pagans to 
go to his church, even after they had BURNED DOWN and DESTROYED the pagan 
temes.  The pagans would return to the desecrated Holy sights even though 
they were horribly defiled and hold their ceremonies there anyway!

The pope's reply was that the missionary should build the church on that 
site where the temple was destroyed, so that the pagans would go into 
that building for their worship.  Once inside the pagans were inundated 
with the curses of a priest who said that a jelous God (See 10 
commandments if you doubt this) had come and those who did not worship 
him would surely never get to heaven.

The only positive in this situation was a King of that day who, upon 
being baptised asked if he would go and be with his Kin and Brothers when 
he died.  The priest's reply was "No, you will go to heaven and be on the 
Lord's right hand side, while your brothers shall surely burn in Hell."  
The King's reply was that he would rather burn in hell. 


> 	Oh BTW, one extra note.  The inverted cross _can_ be a christian
> symbol, under the name of "The Cross of Peter."  Peter didn't consider himsel
> worthy to die in the same manner as Christ.  Tradition is they accomodated
> him by hanging him upside down.
> 

Forgive me, but this smacks of the Odinic rite of Self-Dedication.  The 
person is hanged upside down from a windy tree... well, here:

I know that I hung              from a windy tree
                nights all nine
Wounded by the Gar              Given to Odhinn
                Myself to Myself
On that tree                    of which no man knowest
                from what roots it rises.
They dealt me no bread          Nor drinking horn
                I looked down.
I took up the Runes.            ROARING I TOOK THEM.
                And fell back again.

Could there be a correlation maybe?

Vlaad@brewich.hou.tx.us
Vlaad Thunarsson==Eagles Reaches, Elder Hof=Ring of Troth
Origin: The Brewer's Witch BBS -- Houston, TX -- +1 713 272 7350
        "Hammar I modem, helga ve theta ok hald vord!"
                 "The Hammer shall rise again"