From: barrett@cloudgen1.gatech.edu (James Barrett)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc
Subject: PEROT: Larry King (7/17) transcript (Part 1 of 2)
Date: 21 Jul 92 23:26:28 GMT
Organization: Georgia Tech College of Computing


     Transcript of Larry King's Interview with Ross Perot

    Here is the text of CNN's Larry King Live interview
 Friday with Ross Perot.
    KING: One-hundred and forty-eight days ago, Ross Perot
 sat at this microphone and talked about running for
 President. The prairie fire that began here swept the
 country, but as quickly as it flared, that fire has gone
 out.
    Good evening. I'm Larry King in New York with a special
 edition of Larry King Live. 
    Thousands of true believers spent millions on his behalf.
 Some polls had him ahead of both Bush and Clinton, and
 yesterday Ross Perot turned off the power and the enthusiasm
 of his grassroots workers, curdled into shock and anger.
 Many say they feel betrayed. Some want money back. A few say
 they'll carry on whether Ross Perot likes it or not. All ask
 a single question: Why? Why stop now?
    In his first interview since the bombshell drop, Ross
 Perot is our guest tonight. We are in New York, and our New
 York phone numbers are (212) 643-0077. That's
 (212) 643-0077.
    KING: Why?
    PEROT: Well, as I said yesterday when I announced it: I
 looked carefully at the facts. I'm much closer to the
 political process now then I was when I started.
    The Democrats had pretty well fallen apart when this
 thing started. They have made a very strong comeback. I
 concluded that this would be a strong 3 way race that would
 probably wind up in the House of Representatives.
    I've spent a great deal of time studying the economy. I
 know how important it is to rebuild the economy, to
 re-industrialize our country, and to create jobs for
 Americans.
    The greatest concern I have is to deliver the goods for
 the people. Once we are into a 3-way race, it would wind up
 in the House of Representatives. There are not many
 independents in the House of Representatives.
    KING: But you knew that going in, Ross.
    PEROT: I know, but I didn't think it would be a 3-way
 race. Now, my whole plan was that we could win in November.
 I was asked repeatedly--
    KING: You knew it would be a 3-way race, didn't you?
    PEROT: No. Excuse me. When I say no one will have a
 majority electoral vote, and that forces it to the House of
 Representatives.
    KING: But every person running for Congress is now being
 asked, or was being asked up to yesterday; If it goes to the
 House, how will you vote?
    Tom McMillan, in Maryland; the former basketball player
 said, when he's asked he said I'll vote as my district
 votes.
    If you won the popular vote, there would have been a
 human cry in this country. You would have been the
 President. How could a Congressmen, where you had won his
 district, voted against you?
    PEROT: Well, I think when you get down to partisan
 politics, it's very strong. But there's a step beyond that.
    Let's assume that you made it past that. You would have a
 divided legislative and executive branch. I have watched the
 Congress and the White House in gridlock. Nothing good is
 happening for the benefit of the people. It's going to take
 10 to 12 years to go from where we are to where we want our
 country to be.
    Congress is getting reelected every 2 years during this
 10 to 12 year period. The Senate every 6 years, and the
 White House every 4 years. So, it's sort of like being
 inside a washing machine while you are trying to do
 something very fragile.
    KING: Yeah, but what happened to you Ross? Because you
 knew all these things in February. You knew there was
 gridlock. You ran against gridlock. You are a successful
 business man, you said, "Hey. I can deal with both sides.
 I've dealt with opposing sides all my life. That's how I got
 to be successful."
    PEROT: That's right.
    KING: So you were going to be the answer to the gridlock.
    PEROT: I'm much closer to how the system doesn't work now
 then I was. My concern: My deepest concern is that I could
 get there, and because I was from 1 party, and the House and
 Senate were from other parties, we simply couldn't move
 carefully and surely to fix the economy.
    So, step 1: I don't want to do anything that's divisive.
 I don't want to do anything that's destructive. My only
 interest was to do this job for the American people. And I
 concluded that's where we are now, it would be disruptive.
    I said all through the process; people would say, if this
 sort of thing comes up--I said, neither I nor the volunteers
 would want to do anything that disrupts this country. We
 love this country.
    Now, I love the volunteers. The volunteers are exactly
 what the deTocqueville was talking about when he said
 America is great because her people are good.
    This huge organized movement has a very important place
 in this country's present and future, and I hope we can talk
 about that tonight.
    KING: We will. But do you know how huge it got for you?
 For Perot?
    PEROT: No. I was incidental, Larry.
    KING: Oh no.
    PEROT: No. Please.
    KING: You can't believe that.
    PEROT: I was incidental.
    KING: You were--
    PEROT: I know. I was there.
    These people love their country.
    KING: What was the movement? If it wasn't Perot, what was
 it?
    PEROT: Their love for their country. Their concern for
 their children.
    KING: Every delegate at the Democratic convention last
 night loved their country. Every delegate going to Houston
 is going to love his country.
    George Bush loves the country. Clinton loves the country.
    These people saw in you an answer for frustration, anger,
 poverty, what are my children going to be. You were that
 hope.
    The movement didn't have a name. The movement was Perot.
    PEROT: These people--
    KING: I'm sorry, but that's the way people are telling
 us.
    PEROT: Well, I was there. A lot of these people that go
 to conventions have heavy vested interest, and they
 certainly love their country. But there is a lot of politics
 involved.
    Very little politics involved in this. Great concern for
 their children, for the country's future; to pass on the
 American dream; to pay off our bills; to have jobs. Just
 good, great things; good, great people.
    Now, they have no power individually. Coming together,
 they have created the most powerful force, maybe in this
 country. It is terribly important that that group stay
 together, and I will help them and assist them, and provide
 anything I can so that they can have an absolutely
 overwhelming impact, not only on the Presidential race, but
 the House and Senate races this year too.
    KING: Is this a 3d party?
    PEROT: No. I wouldn't call it anything yet. I'm going to
 meet with the state coordinators. And basically visit with
 them along these lines and find out what--You see, this
 comes from the people. I'm willing to say to the people:
 Let's look at where we can really make a contribution that
 will help the country. And let's optimize this great
 organization that we have to do that.
    So that, in my mind is the next step. I have not gone
 away. I will stay with them right through the end. I will
 help and support them any way I can and play any role they
 want me to.
    KING: What was the lesson you said you learned that you
 didn't know February 20th that you now know July 17th? What
 didn't you know then that you now know that told you you
 couldn't be an effective president?
    PEROT: I could be an effective president if we didn't
 have this partisan stress.
    KING: But you didn't know that in February?
    PEROT: I didn't appreciate it to the degree I do now.
    KING: What made you appreciate it?
    PEROT: Just being inside the tent watching it. I didn't
 realize how vicious it was, how petty it was. More
 focus--see, the people I've been dealing with out of grass
 roots America, there is no viciousness, there is no
 pettiness. They love their country; they're patriots.
    You get inside the tent, and the infighting and the
 viciousness and what-have-you is just unique. And Larry, you
 can't get anything done in that environment.
    KING: So why not come outside the tent and say, folks,
 the tent is terrible, I'm going to change the tent? But it
 looks like--it does look like or perceived by many that when
 you leave it, you're saying, hey, that's the way the tent
 is. I told you I could fight the tent. I can't fight the
 tent.
    PEROT: No. I have not said that. I have said I don't
 believe that the proper course of action is to have me run
 as president. I do believe the proper course of action is to
 take all of these talented, creative people that have
 mobilized themselves across the country and use that to
 correct the problems inside the tent.
    And believe me, individually, they have no voice. They're
 not a special interest group. They can't get big PAC money.
 They don't belong to the 100 committee, etc, etc, etc. But
 they have something over here that dwarfs all those other
 special interest groups. They have numbers of voters. So
 they have something that's magic that any--
    KING: Who need to rally behind something. Can't be a--
    PEROT: Well, I will provide them any kind of help and
 leadership they want me to, and we're going to be meeting on
 that in the next few days. But I do not think that the
 highest and best use--the best thing for the country is to
 run me as the candidate.
    Now, they have an interesting piece of leverage, though,
 that they're all very much aware of and certainly I'm aware
 of, and believe me, both parties are aware of. I am on the
 ballot. They put me there. I was asked at the press
 conference, would I take my name off? I said I can't do
 that. The people put me on there. I'm going to meet with
 them and let--we'll discuss what they want to do.
    So I think with that leverage sitting there, they will
 have--just take the marinara thing of the presidency. They
 will have both candidates giving them their full attention.
 Then both candidates will know exactly what the people want.
 They get confused. They know what the special interests want
 now. In the next week or 2, they will know in technicolor
 what the people want.
    KING: You went on 2 other ballots, I think, yesterday?
    PEROT: Yes.
    KING: All right.
    PEROT: They're continuous.
    KING: They're continuous. What if you're on the ballot in
 48 states on November 3rd? What if?
    PEROT: What if? Now, I'm on the ballot, say, in--
    KING: And you're not going to endorse Clinton or Bush.
    PEROT: And neither one of them has responded to the will
 of the people.
    KING: Then what?
    PEROT: Well, I'm going back to my volunteers. You have
 to--look, Larry--
    KING: Are you saying you want them to vote for you if
 they're unhappy with Clinton or Bush?
    PEROT: No. I will--we will meet again. See, we kind of do
 an unnatural thing. We just--we get together, talk about it,
 and say, what is best for the country?
    KING: What if they said to you, we hear Clinton's
 promises, we hear Bush's statements, we're unhappy, we don't
 know where to go, let's vote for you, Ross, and let's see
 what happens on November 3rd?
    PEROT: I'm an engineer. I'd say all right, let's look at
 the facts. If you launch a huge protest vote for me, who
 have you put in the White House? Now, let--we'll have enough
 data around then to have a really good indication--who will
 you put in the White House? Then just make sure that's who
 you want to put in the White House.
    KING: What if it's you?
    PEROT: Well, that would be the very, very, very long shot
 because of the position of the 2 parties and the position of
 the 2 parties in the House of Representatives. And I would
 say, let's be pragmatic here. Do you want to take a long
 shot or do we want to try to capture the minds and the
 hearts of the person who can best lead the country?
    KING: Let's get a break and we'll be back with Ross
 Perot. We'll of course include your phone calls. This is
 "Larry King Live" in New York. Don't go away.
    KING: Our guest is Ross Perot. We'll be taking your calls
 in a little while. There's a lot of bases we want to cover.
 Certainly this has been interesting. And again, he's going
 to stay on the ballots.
    Do you think you had a duty to serve, based on what you
 said?
    PEROT: No.
    KING: No?
    PEROT: You said based on what I said? I responded no to
 that.
    I have probably been more fortunate than anybody deserves
 to be. I had wonderful parents, I've had the world's
 greatest wife, 5 perfect children, more than my share of
 success. I would do anything I could to help this country,
 but I want to be constructive and I want it to be good for
 the people, and I don't have any personal goal at all. I
 just want to do the right thing.
    So you say, what drives me in all these decisions? And
 it's that simple. And you say, well, gee, what if you make
 an unpopular decision? That doesn't bother me as long as I
 do the right thing.
    KING: Doesn't it bother you that people are hurt?
    PEROT: Oh, that breaks my heart. But I have to do the
 right thing.
    KING: What didn't you like about this process? Let me
 show you an example. We got a lot of faxes. I guess you're
 getting a lot of faxes. We got faxed attacked at CNN today.
    All right, 1 from Christine Lane in Walnut, California.
 This was to us:
    Dear Mr King, Yesterday 20 million Ross Perot volunteers
 wept. We all felt terribly betrayed. Mr Perot made a promise
 to us that if we got him on the ballot in all 50 states,
 he'd give us a world-class campaign. He never said if he
 went down in the polls, that that promise didn't apply.
    Tyler Scott, 13 years old, Winnsboro, Texas: Mr Perot,
 Please reconsider so my mom will stop crying.
    These people love you, obviously.
    PEROT: And I love them, Larry. And I love them. I have
 given them every waking moment of my life since this
 started, and I have taken a pretty interesting beating for
 them, which I don't worry about. That's the least of
 my--because I don't care about my image and I don't care how
 I look.
    But the thing I--they have put their trust in me and I
 only have 1 agenda, and that is doing the right thing for
 them.
    KING: But their trust in you was to run. They wanted to
 pull that lever next to your name. That's what they wanted.
    PEROT: Well, but is that the right thing to do?
    KING: But you said it was.
    PEROT: Emotionally, I am flattered that they feel that
 way, but if you look at the details and you look at why
 things don't work and you look at what it takes to make them
 work--now, we have something very, very precious here in
 what they've created.
    We can make things work, and that's where I hope we can
 all agree to go when we first meet.
    Let's organize. We can provide the swing vote to
 determine who gets in the House and Senate, and we can
 provide the swing vote to who gets to be the next president
 of the US. And I will work with them night and day to get
 that done. Now then--
    KING: Are you going to have a convention of sorts?
    PEROT: Yes.
    KING: Are you going to have a massive get-together
 somewhere?
    PEROT: We will start off with the state coordinators 
 bringing in the thoughts and ideas from their states. We
 will have a long meeting and kick these ideas around and
 figure out what will best serve this country. There is only
 1 filter it's got to get through. What's good for the US of
 America? What's good for our children? What would build a
 bigger, stronger country?
    Now, I have not gone away, but I have concluded that I
 should not be the candidate. On the other hand, we have
 enormous leverage in what they have done, and we can use
 that for the good of the country, and I will help them.
    KING: Especially by remaining a protest candidate,
 because if you're on the ballot in all these states and
 they've put you on the ballot, you can't stop someone from
 voting for you.
    PEROT: That's right.
    KING: So in a sense, you're still sort of hanging that
 leaf out.
    PEROT: That's the magic, Larry. You just put your finger
 on it. They say, so now you've captured everybody's minds
 and hearts and say look, if you guys, if you'll do this,
 this, this and this for the good of the country and just
 stop talking about it, stop the gridlock, cut all these
 funny things out you're doing, then we will go forward with
 you. Otherwise--
    KING: We've got an alternative.
    PEROT: We have a protest vote and that could take 1 of
 the 2 of you through the tank.
    KING: So you want both these--all 4 of these candidates
 to talk to your people and if they don't satisfy your
 people, your people should protest vote for you?
    PEROT: They have an option. But the thing is--the thing
 is, if you look at what the parties are saying now and if
 you look at the phrases they use and the words they're
 using, they're copying our positions already.
    KING: President Bush said today, for Ross Perot
 followers, he looked at the camera and said, I get the
 message, I hear your pain--I don't want to--that's a
 paraphrase. I hear you. He did say, I hear you.
    What did he say to you, by the way?
    PEROT: We just had a nice visit, and I thought it was a
 private visit, and then they had a press release. So you
 know how that goes.
    KING: Do you think they took advantage--
    PEROT: No, no, no, no, no. I just don't understand
 politics. I guess you always do that when something like
 this comes up. But it was just a nice visit.
    KING: But I mean you thought it was just a private--
    PEROT: Private conversation. With both candidates.
    KING: You had Clinton call, too, right?
    PEROT: Gov Clinton and President Bush. And then they both
 issued press releases. I just--I thought they were private
 conversations, but no problem. That's the way politics is.
    KING: Have you ever heard from Sen Gore or Vice President
 Quayle?
    PEROT: No, I haven't, wouldn't expect it, because the
 senior candidates have called.
    KING: How about anger over things like Marlin Fitzwater
 calling you a monster? You've been described as a
 temperamental tycoon. This was this administration calling,
 who are now saying to your voters, come with us. How do you
 react to that?
    PEROT: I ignore it. I ignored it then. First time I heard
 it, I said, are you sure they didn't say cookie monster?
    No, this is silly stuff. Now, it's sad that politics has
 deteriorated to this, but let's go back to our group. We can
 change all that. We have such large numbers--
    KING: How big is your group?
    PEROT: It's millions. And I've got the database.
 Everybody'd like to know, but it's big. And it is plenty
 big, and you can see it reflected in the polls and so on and
 so forth.
    KING: But aren't they going to leave you now?
    PEROT: If they want to, that's fine. On the other hand,
 they would make a great--it's not me, Larry. They shouldn't
 leave what they've created.
    KING: You're asking them tonight to stay and maybe
 there'll be a party, maybe there'll be something, but stay.
    PEROT: I'm saying stay the course as a united team. If I
 could just pray for 1 thing to happen is that we would have
 a tightly knit, united team in a country that's all split
 apart and divided.
    Now then, if we stay together, we can force the Democrats
 and the Republicans to do the right thing for the country,
 and we can make a contribution that would be unique in the
 history of this country. And most importantly, we can pass
 the dream on to our children.
    Larry, let me net it out. When I was a younger man, the
 standard of living of the average American doubled every
 other generation. Now, at our present growth rates, it will
 take 12 generations for the American people to double their
 standard of living. See? These are the kinds of problems we
 face. That's wrong.
    KING: Now, you know America, you know media. You got to
 give this a name. You got to give the party a name; you got
 to call it the Perots.
    PEROT: No, no, no.
    KING: No? You got to call it something.
    PEROT: It has to have a name, and I--again, see, the
 volunteers drive this thing. That has been the magic, that
 will be the magic in its future, and if they want to name
 it, they'll name it. I'm sure they'll want to name it, and
 they will.
    KING: You mentioned about taking the raps and that it
 didn't bother you personally, but--
    PEROT: No.
    KING: --did it bother you with regard to your family?
    PEROT: My family is very tough, very supportive. You've
 got to go all the way back to the war in Vietnam. I was on
 the assassination list for 3 1/2 years. My family was on the
 assassination list. And we kept on on the POW projects at
 the request of the US government.
    So to all the volunteers out there, if you want a good
 example of whether or not I quit or not, when your whole
 family is on the list to be assassinated and you don't quit,
 that tells you something about quitting.
    Now, let's go to the war on drugs. Again, I was on
 everybody's hit list.
    When we went into Tehran to get our people out, think of
 the stress on my family there, because the odds were good
 I'd be killed, right? Well, we were lucky. We got in and
 out.
    So my family has seen a lot of stress. This is ping-pong
 compared to the stress they've seen. But the point is, I
 tell you those 3 things to let you know I won't quit. I
 love, I just adore being involved in this cause as another
 worker and as a person who leads or supports or plays
 whatever role they want.
    Now I'm back like all these other causes I've been
 involved--nobody can constantly say, well, he wants to be
 president. I want the country fixed.
    KING: If this isn't quitting, it's a removal of sorts,
 though, or it's a step back.
    PEROT: Well, call it what--no. Only because--now, I would
 go do the nastiest, dirtiest job in the world in a minute
 for the American people if I thought I could get it done.
 But see, I don't want to go there to ride in a limousine, I
 don't want to go there to be in the White House or hear
 "Hail to the Chief."
    KING: You said that. There's no law that says you have to
 ride in a limousine.
    PEROT: I just want to go--I would only want to go if I
 could fix these problems for people who desperately need
 them fixed. I've concluded this is not the best route. I
 think I can convince the volunteers, if we can--you know,
 when we sit down and talk, that there is a better way, but
 we've got it in the palms of our hands unless we give it up.
    KING: Did the press do you dirty? Did elements of the
 press--I don't want to label the whole press.
    PEROT: Everybody--we used to have an expression in the
 Navy, everybody has to be somewhere. You know, so just leave
 it. I wouldn't dignify it with commenting on it. It's just
 that's the way they make their living.
    KING: Well, when you read--if you read lies about--did
 you read any lies about yourself?
    PEROT: Every day.
    KING: Okay, you read every day. All right, how do you
 react to that? You'd never seen that before. You may have
 seen it in blips, but not in a daily concentration. Okay,
 what was that like?
    PEROT: That was incidental. No, I ignore the mosquitoes
 and focus on the issues. The issues are these problems that
 the people are concerned about.
    KING: Were you shocked that they kind of went to war on
 you?
    PEROT: Oh, I shouldn't have been because I was a threat
 to the establishment. Having the people have a voice was a
 threat to the establishment. I love that. No, actually I
 knew exactly what was happening, and that didn't bother me.
    KING: Now, you think it was inspired by the Republicans,
 though, don't you? You said that on this show.
    PEROT: Well, they are really organized to do it. The
 Democrats don't do it.
    KING: You praised Clinton-Gore in your press conference
 yesterday.
    PEROT: I didn't praise Clinton and Gore. I said they've
 revitalized the Democratic Party. I did not mean
 that--that's just a fact. No, I did not praise anybody.
    KING: Okay. Do you think that's a good ticket?
    PEROT: They picked them.
    KING: Do you think it's a good ticket?
    PEROT: I wouldn't say. I've never said who I vote for.
 But if our group comes together, when we meet, and we decide
 to go out on the field to make sure we have people in the
 House, the Senate and the White House that are going to fix
 this country's problems and we--you talk about the foreign
 lobbyists. They won't even have a voice compared to the
 American people.
    KING: Do I hear you saying that this group, so far not
 named, will endorse congressional candidates, will say we
 like him; don't vote for him?
    PEROT: That's 1 idea that's come from the grass roots.
 Now, we will meet, we will decide what we want to do or if
 the volunteers want to do anything. But I will be with them
 every step of the way.
    KING: Now, when your state chairmen get together, if they
 say, let's have a convention, let's meet in August or
 September, let's get all our groups together, let's kick
 around ideas--that's what conventions do--let's have a
 platform, would you favor that?
    PEROT: If the output of the meeting is do that,
 certainly. We should have a clear plan that everybody
 running can see and they say we will sign on to that or we
 won't.
    No, you have to have that, Larry, because then there's no
 place to run, no place to hide.
    KING: You've got to get together.
    PEROT: No place to run, no place to hide. And the
 candidates, House, Senate, White House say we will buy into
 that or we won't.
    KING: You would invite Mr Clinton and Mr Bush to the
 Perot--for want of a better name--convention?
    PEROT: I would suggest that small groups sit down with
 them, go through a proposal in detail, explain why we feel
 we have to do this for our country, make it clear that the
 American people are ready to strap it on and go do it. We're
 not as weak as they seem to worry that we are.
    KING: When we come back, we'll start including your phone
 calls with Ross Perot. This is "Larry King Live" in New
 York. Don't go away.
    KING: Welcome back to Larry King Live. Don't forget on
 TNT, 1 of our sister stations, next Wednesday night at 8:00:
 The Larry King Extra. Our guest will be Jack Lemmon and Tony
 Quinn and Kirk Douglas. That's a Larry King Extra: The
 Legends, next Wednesday night at 8:00. That's the premier.
 It will be repeated at 11:00, est.
    Next Wednesday night at 9:00, we'll hold you all night;
 on Larry King Live, the guest will be Vice President Dan
 Quayle. That's next Wednesday night with Dan Quayle.
    Our guest is Ross Perot.
    A couple of other things and we'll go to calls.
    If this fails, might we see a 3d party come out of this?
 A true 3d--registered 3d party that gets on the ballot and
 has candidates?
    PEROT: A very interesting point. Let's assume all the
 volunteers come together and drive the ball hard, and are
 disappointed in the results. And than we will have to
 conclude we can't do it by being supportive of the 2 party
 system, but we have everything in place for the 3d party.
 It's an easy natural thing.
    But there's another interesting phenomenon here. In the
 plan that is under consideration--See, the volunteers are
 picking Congressional and Senatorial candidates in every
 state that their going to back. They want to pick a
 Presidential candidate that will deliver for the people.
    Let's assume that the last minute that neither one will.
 But they've got their Congressional candidates picked: The
 House of Representatives picked. Do you follow me?
    KING: Right.
    PEROT: Than they do a protest vote. Than you have a whole
 new game there. Do you follow me?
    KING: I think I follow you.
    PEROT: No. That is a whole new game. But that's because 2
 Presidential candidates failed them. They can than go to
 the--
    KING: But you're going to have to tell them what you want
 them to succeed at. You have to tell Mr Bush and Mr Clinton
 what's your platform--I mean Mr Bush has to respond to
 something.
    PEROT: No. Absolutely. And that's easy to do. And we can
 certainly do that if the volunteers want to.
    But the whole thing--
    KING: So, you want people to still keep calling you? I
 mean, are you going to keep your 800 number?
    PEROT: Well, we're past that at this point. We're at the
 point now where we need to organize the state and local
 level.
    The initial round of calls came into a central location.
 Far more efficient now just to sign up with your local
 group. If you want to be part of this, you just sign up
 locally and off we go. But the first thing we need to have:
 We need to meet. We need to decide what to do. And than we
 need to go, relentlessly and do it.
    KING: Rumors that you didn't want to spend money. Sure
 pause. That you looked at it and--you had a great
 advertizing agency. They did Reagan's America in the Morning
 spots. Why didn't you want them, by the way?
    PEROT: We never hired them. They came in, were
 interviewed, did some preliminary work for us.
    See, again this thing works when it comes from the
 people. We wanted plain, just good straight talking ads to
 straight talking people.
    KING: That's what you just wanted to do?
    PEROT: Interestingly enough, we now have it. We've got
 ads that are knock outs.
    KING: Where are they?
    PEROT: They are in the can, ready to go.
    KING: Wait a minute. These are ads that say vote for me?
    PEROT: The campaign ads are in the can. So no problem
 there. And they are killers.
    KING: Wait a minute. If you're not dead in October would
 you run these?
    PEROT: No. No. The point is: If you have to tap both
 Presidential candidates on the shoulder. Say, "Look guys, if
 you force us to, than we have an exit here. We've got an
 option." But, but for God's sake, let's make the system work
 and put tremendous pressure on the system to make it work,
 and than get action next year.
    KING: Let's take some calls. Kansas City Missouri for
 Ross Perot.
    Q: Yes, Ross?
    PEROT: How are you?
    PEROT: Fine. How are you?
    PEROT: I'm great.
    Q: I have a question.
    PEROT: Yes, sir.
    Q: Do you think it's possible to negotiate with the
 Democrats or Republicans?
    PEROT: I would say this, we'll find out in a few weeks,
 right?
    Let's do this. Let's assume that we can. Let's give it a
 hard shot. Volunteers monitor and watch it every step of the
 way. If it works, fine. If you're not happy, you've got an
 option.
    KING: Peoria Illinois, hello.
    Q: Mr Perot, I saw you on the first Larry King, and 8 or
 10 times after that. CSPAN and call in shows and so on.
    I saw you at the NAACP and as far as I know, that was the
 first and only time--you can correct me--that you weren't
 talking to supporters, or it wasn't a call in show. And the
 camera showed the audience. I thought you bombed. How do you
 think you did?
    PEROT: Well, it didn't go very well.
    KING: How do explain that term? Did you realize it was
 offensive at the time?
    PEROT: No. Again--
    KING: Do you think it was more colloquial?
    PEROT: I don't know what it was. I know this: For years I
 have worked to help the black community. 
    I have given millions of dollars for schools, for
 programs for disadvantaged black children. I've got scars
 from all over my body from education reform. Getting
 programs for disadvantaged children; the majority of which
 were black in our state, and hispanic. And in terms of
 loving and caring for everyone in this country, the record
 is there.
    I just spoke from the heart, and who knows why, but I'm
 not going to worry about it, because--and the fact that that
 was not a positive experience has nothing to do with my  
 future continuing love and caring for every person in this
 country as a private citizen.
    KING: What happened with Hamilton Jordan and Ed Rollins?
 2 tough political pros who joined you. Jordan stayed,
 Rollins quit the day before you announced that you would not
 be a serious candidate for the President.
    PEROT: Basically, I was determined to run a campaign that
 came from the people. I like a bottoms up campaign. Now
 than, the next time we meet, all the state chairmen will be
 in the room. See a couple of weeks ago, I spent a half a day
 with all the state chairmen and they were giving me an 
 earful about how to do this, how to do that. That's the way
 I run my businesses.
    KING: But you hire people like Rollins in your businesses
 too, don't you? You said when you hired them, "I need
 experts." That's what experts do.
    PEROT: Again, we brought people in with experience in
 campaigns as advisors. Not to run the campaign. Just so that
 things that were obvious to them that might not be obvious
 to us.
    On anything we do from this point forward with the
 volunteers, we go back to basics. And it will be from the
 grassroots up and that works. I know that works.
    It works in my business, it's worked in everything I've
 done.
    KING: Was that than a mistake?
    PEROT: Oh, I don't want to blame anybody and call it
 mistake.
    KING: No. On your part. If you had to do it over again,
 you wouldn't hire them?
    PEROT: I would say, no. If we had to do it over again, I
 would have stayed strictly with the grassroots operation.
 And a very unconventional operation.
    KING: Jefferson City Missouri.
    Q: Hi. A quick comment. This is the show me state. Mr
 Perot, I'm sorry, but I think you're all dough and no show.
 You made a promise and you didn't keep your word.
    Now my question is: Who got to you? I have a feeling
 somebody on the Republican side, the dirty tricksters got to
 you and you're not normally a man who's scared, but those
 people have scared me for the last 12 years and beyond that.
 And I just think somebody got to you, and I think they are
 making you drop out.
    PEROT: No. They didn't get to me. And I think if you
 listen to what I'm saying tonight, they're going to continue
 to be doing what ever they used to do if I proceed forward
 in this fashion, because what we are now discussing with the
 state chairmen is even more all encompassing because it goes
 to endorsing Senatorial and Congressional candidates, and
 covers the whole waterfront. And gives this huge volunteer
 organization a much greater voice in the future of our
 country.
    KING: You're saying tonight: You're not going away. There
 will be 50 state organizations. You're going to pull
 together and meet with those organizations. You're going to
 want to hear from the Presidential candidates, the Vice
 Presidential candidates, Congressional candidates,
 Senatorial candidates. You're going to endorse some if you
 like them, you're going to set up proposals of your own, and
 if people are unhappy by November 3rd, and haven't had
 answers they can protest vote for you?
    PEROT: Well, when we say of your own, of the volunteers,
 the people. The people will put together what they feel is
 important to the future of this country. Probably keep it
 pretty focused on things that have to be done. Not get into
 every little issue in the world and just stay right on the
 core issues.
    KING: Why didn't you say that yesterday? Or was yesterday
 too emotional?
    PEROT: No. Yesterday was not too emotional. I explained
 yesterday that I wanted to talk--
    KING: You didn't say this.
    PEROT: Not in this level of detail.
    I explained yesterday that I was still on the ballot. And
 I thought that they could extrapolate from there, but I
 guess I should have detailed it out more.
    KING: You have to be a little clearer Ross.
    PEROT: I should have been a little more clear. But the
 thing I need to do more than anything else now is sit down
 and visit with the volunteers. See, they may want to go
 forward and say Perot we don't need you anymore. I'd say,
 okay that's fine. And they may want to go forward and have
 me play this role or that role. It's their program. It came
 from them. It's a beautiful thing.
    KING: Are you sad?
    PEROT: No. Don't spend time being sad. Never spend time
 being disappointed and frustrated. And God bless you all. I
 understand if you are, but we've got work to do. And let's
 put it on a personal basis. Look at what I have had to go
 through. I know what you've had to go through. I think you
 can see my will and my attitude here tonight. I can't see
 your's, but I know what it is from all the response that's
 come through in the last couple of days.
    Now, what we need to do is pull together into a tightly
 knit unified team. Our country pines for tightly knit
 unified teams that work together to get a job done. If you
 want to do that, then our best days are still in the future
 as far as this grassroots effort. If you don't, I
 understand.
    KING: So we can better understand: Can you tell us Ross,
 I mean we've gotten to know you pretty well over these
 months. What are some of the things that happened to you?
 What happened to you?
    You said there were lies in the paper, but you brushed
 them off. What else happened?
    PEROT: Oh just the usual clutter. Nothing worth
 mentioning. The point being, the people--all the volunteers
 who have formed this very carefully. They know because they
 read and see everything that goes on. They know what's
 happening. I don't like to spend any time dwelling on it,
 because if you think about it you relive it. It's better
 just to put it behind you.
    Here's what's important Larry, and that is our country is
 in a very delicate situation in terms of its economy, in
 terms of its job base and all of these things. We need to
 stop thinking about what happened and figure out how we're
 going to make it happen. To rebuild this country for our
 children.
    KING: Is this a game, for want of a better term. Is
 politics a game you didn't like?
    PEROT: My deep concern, and let's assume we go through
 November and the volunteers produce the kind of roaring
 success for our country that I think they can--
    KING: There could be a protest vote.
    PEROT: I don't think it will. But if it is, it is. I
 think that we're going to see an interesting group of choir
 boys out there. When the American people have an effective
 voice, and it's no longer just the guys who can get TV money
 and the foreign lobbyists, and all of a sudden the folks
 that pay the taxes have a voice again, I think we're going
 to see a lot of focus and attention.
    We'll see. We'll let that take care of itself. But now
 then, let's assume we get past that. One of the things I
 think we'd like to make clear to both of them this year, and
 I've got to talk to volunteers about this, is people. Let's
 raise this up to a higher plane. Let's stop mud wrestling in
 the political process. Let's have a more dignified process.
 I think everybody would welcome it at this point. It is a
 process now that guarantees that the people you would really
 like to have as the leaders of your country would never go
 near it because it is so demeaning.
    KING: Are you saying no more dirty politics, period?
    PEROT: Just cut the dirty politics out, tell the
 opposition research guys to go get a job cleaning up the
 roads or something. And you know, just get down to facts,
 issues and believe in something.
    For example, if you and I are running against one
 another, I should not be able to beat you because I destroy
 you. I should only be able to beat you because my plans are
 better than your plans, right?
    KING: Do you think they tried to destroy you?
    PEROT: No, no, no, no, no. I just think--
    KING: Do you think they did?
    PEROT: No, don't make it personal. Larry, I refuse to
 make it personal.
    KING: Okay.
    PEROT: You know how the game is played. The average
 citizen out there knows how the game is played. And what we
 need to do is bring the game back up to a very high
 standard. Boxing has the Marcus of Queensbury rules, you
 don't hit below the belt, right? Etc. etc.
    This is mud wrestling with no rules. Just anything goes.
 And if 1 candidate can destroy the other, he will win by
 default. The only way that candidate should be able to win
 is to have a better program for the people.
    KING: Do you think you could have prevented that, really,
 by staying above the fray? Staying in the race, producing
 some early commercials, telling us the Ross Perot biography.
 As someone said the other night, it's an impressive
 biography. You tell us your story and stay above that fray,
 and let the Republicans and the Democrats do the things
 they've always done, and Perot would be different.
    PEROT: Possibly I could do that, but that's not the
 issue. The issue is this is not the way to attract the
 finest people in the country to go to Washington as the
 servants of the people, this nasty, negative thing we've
 created. And these huge efforts to dig up dirt on anybody
 that's running against you, see.
    I'll tell you this. We have never had a single person
 working on anything like that, never would. The American
 people hate it. And if we go forward, I think 1 of the
 things you'll see in bold print is we will not support any
 candidate that does that.
    KING: Our guest is Ross Perot. We want to talk about the
 economy and other things, take your phone calls. We also
 have a group of Perot supporters in Palm Beach, Florida.
 We're going to hear from 1 of them. There they are, watching
 Ross tonight. Get some thoughts there. They're applauding
 and waving.
    And we'll come back with more of "Larry King Live" right
 after these words.
    KING: Welcome back to "Larry King Live." We have cleared
 things with the powers that be, and Ross Perot has
 graciously agreed to stay with us, and we're going to hold
 this program over till the bottom of the next hour, till
 10:30 Eastern time, so we'll be able to get more calls and
 really get Mr Perot's thoughts on the economy, something
 everybody's waiting to here, too. And so we'll be with you
 until 10:30 est.
    We're going to go down to Palm Beach Gardens, Fla. There
 is a group of supporters of Ross Perot. They're led by
 Margie Matthau. Margie was the Palm Beach County Perot
 campaign coordinator.
    Margie, do you have a question or a statement for Ross?
    MARGIE MATTHAU: Hi, Ross. Good to see you again. Saw you
 in Orlando.
    PEROT: Good to see you.
    MATTHAU: I read "Wings of Eagles," as you asked. And I
 quote from where you're going to Iran to help rescue your 2
 employees. The quote is from your mother:
    "You don't have a choice, Ross," she said. "They're your
 men. You sent them over there. They didn't do anything
 wrong. Our government won't help them. You are responsible
 for them. It's up to you to get them out. You have to go."
    That's the way I felt about you, Ross, that you were
 going to get us out of this. Our government now is not going
 to help us. My office is open. I've eaten here, I've slept
 here. All of my helpers here, we are at the point where we
 are going to block captains. What do I do next? Do I leave
 my doors open?
    PEROT: We're going to meet quickly, as you've heard me
 say tonight. We're going to decide where we go from here.
 Then we will lock in and go do it. This will take a day or 2
 at most. We will get the word back to every volunteer
 immediately, as soon as we know. And I would hope that by
 Monday, we could tell you.
    KING: What if these people--this is a what if, and I
 don't like what if questions but it's fair--what if these
 people gather together and say reconsider?
    PEROT: I would really focus them on the fact that we
 could do more in this posture than we could if we're just
 trying to push 1 independent candidate through the eye of
 the needle. Here, now we've taken on the whole system, we
 have the ability to influence both parties, we have this
 massive group of talented, dedicated people. Nobody else has
 anything like it.
    We were going to make a little change. Now we can make
 the change we have to make to get the system to work. This
 is a much bigger, bolder step. And I think we can be more
 effective this way. We'll debate it and discuss it.
    KING: Is that also, in your opinion, following through on
 what your mother said about you and those folks in Iran?
    PEROT: Oh, they're interesting analogies. Once we start
 it--now, see, we've started, so we're in Tehran, if you
 will. Now, we were all geared up to get our guys out of 1
 prison, then they moved them. And we had a whole different
 problem. As I get closer and closer to this problem or any
 other problem I've ever been around in my life, I always
 find a better way to do it.
    I think we're onto a better way now that impacts the
 whole system, not just the White House. And the thing that
 stopped me personally is I realized that unless you impact
 the whole system, just changing who's in the White House
 doesn't fix much. You've got to fix the whole system, the
 House, the Senate, the White House.
    KING: Do you want to follow up, Margie?
    MATTHAU: I'd love to say you're in the ring till the end.
 I want to hear you all the way.
    PEROT: Margie, I'm going to meet with all the volunteers'
 state coordinators. They'll be talking with all the people
 at the local level. As soon as we build a consensus of what
 you want to do, then we're going to go do it.
    Now, let me ask you this, Margie. Don't you think we're
 at our best when it comes from the grass roots?
    MATTHAU: You know that.
    PEROT: I know that; yes, I do know that.
    MATTHAU: I've had that feedback from some of the people
 that were there from the 50 states. Yes, we're ready to go.
 All we're ready for is the door knockers to go door to door.
    KING: All right, let me get a break. We'll come back.
    PEROT: Can I respond?
    KING: Yeah, oh, we'll respond. We'll come back with Ross
 Perot, and again, he's staying with us till the bottom of
 the next hour, so don't go away. This is "Larry King Live."
 Stay there.
    [promos]
    KING: Welcome back to "Larry King Live." Through the
 graciousness of Tom Johnson and the folks in Atlanta and the
 folks involved with CNN, we are holding Ross Perot an extra
 half hour. We'll have complete news for you at the bottom of
 the hour. We thank him for agreeing to stay. We'll be taking
 more phone calls, but he did want to add something on that
 door-to-door idea.
    PEROT: Right. Margie, when you go door to door--let's
 assume you're selling products--you'd like to have more than
 1 product. If we go door to door on this plan we're
 discussing tonight, you'll not only be talking about the
 person who should be president, you'll be talking about the
 House of Representatives and the Senate. So I think we can
 be much more effective at each stop.
    KING: You could also have run and done the same thing,
 right?
    PEROT: Not effectively. There's not enough time. See, I
 just adore being part of a--see, now I'm like the
 volunteers. I'm in this with nothing in it for me. I'm in it
 strictly--they're in it just for their country. Now then, in
 this role, helping, supporting them, so on and so forth,
 being--sitting there on the ballot, you know, kind of like a
 whale on the beach just in case, all that's beautiful. But
 all any of us want is to have our country straightened out
 and to have the people in Washington as our servants and to
 be sensitive to us and not to special interests. Pretty
 simple stuff.
    KING: Do you think you've created a new way of
 politicking, this kind of thing?
    PEROT: No. If it's created, they created it. Those people
 you see sitting out there--
    KING: I mean with these kind of programs.
    PEROT: No, no. Again, I'm incidental. They did it, and
 they are great.
    KING: Yeah, but you went on this show and other shows.
    PEROT: No, but that was just the--
    KING: Catalyst.
    PEROT: No, the catalyst doesn't participate in the
 reaction.
    KING: Okay, the instrument.
    PEROT: I am in the reaction here.
    KING: Okay, I tried to make you the catalyst.
    PEROT: Yeah, that'd be kind of neat.
    KING: This is the instrument.
    PEROT: But this is the instrument created by the people,
 and I think the founders of the Constitution or the founders
 of this country would be smiling down from heaven if they do
 it.
    KING: By the way, can you tell us--why not--was there a
 short list for your vice president?
    PEROT: I never talk about it.
    KING: Had you spoken to anyone about it?
    PEROT: I'd never talk about it.
    KING: Okay, Cleveland, hello.
    Q: Well, I would like to start off by saying how much I
 hurt and the tears just have not stopped. We had a
 headquarters in Garfield Heights, Ohio, which is a suburb of
 Cleveland, and it was wonderful and refreshing to meet so
 many people from different areas who just drove by and would
 stop in because they supported you and loved you, Ross. Love
 for our country, yes. But knowing how much we loved you as a
 person was just as important to us.
    Do we really have a choice now? You showed us honesty,
 love, and you truly wanted to change our country. Please,
 Ross, show us how much you care for us. Do what we went out
 to do for you.
    PEROT: Well, I do care for you and I love you, and I will
 remember for the rest of my life everything you just said. I
 know that I speak for you and everyone else when I say our
 objective is the country. The fact that you have those
 feelings for me personally means a great deal to me. I am
 incidental in the big picture. Getting the system to work is
 all-important. If I can be a source of inspiration, a source
 of leadership, support, anything that I can be to help this
 great cause continue and bear fruit for our country, I'll be
 right there with you all the way through and past the end.
    And I hope--and again, the way the thing's set up now,
 you have the enormous leverage that you have put me on the
 ballot.
    I think that will capture everybody's mind, heart and
 attention. You will have the House, the Senate and the White
 House absolutely sensitive to what you want, and you will
 see our country properly run again.
    KING: And you're saying she and all the others will be
 hearing from state coordinators within the next week?
    PEROT: Oh, within the next--
    KING: 2 days.
    PEROT: --probably Monday or Tuesday, latest. And then,
 see, we'll go from a central meeting, they'll go back with  
 the best ideas, talk to the people, everybody will have a
 voice in it. They may come back and say, gee, Perot, here is
 a ten times better idea. We're looking for the best idea for
 our country, whatever that is.
    KING: Okay, but if this convention--and let's say they
 decide to have a convention--
    PEROT: Fine.
    KING: --invite candidates, hear the statements. You don't
 want to hear them say to you reconsider, but--I just want to
 clear this--if they're protesting November 3rd, they can use
 it as a protest while endorsing people for the Senate and 
 the House?
    PEROT: Exactly.
    KING: Okay, I just want to get it straight.
    PEROT: But you've got all these different balls moving,
 and in a political year, here is this army of patriots, army
 of people who love their country. Nobody is going to ignore
 it.
    KING: Why don't you call them the Army of Patriots?
    PEROT: Well, I'll let them name it because it belongs to
 them.
    KING: Bozeman, Montana, hello.
    Q: Yes, sir. Mr Perot, I do have a question.
    PEROT: Yes, sir.
    Q: Number 1, you made me as an American very proud when
 you first came out. You gave me hope again, let's say. But
 now that you--you're not quitting, but you're stepping back
 from the presidency, how can we be assured that with what
 you're doing now, that you won't step back again? And what
 would you say to us that has a great hope for you and then
 stepped back--
    KING: Fair question.
    Q: --how can you boost us up?
    PEROT: Well, you'll have to make your own decision on
 that. If you look at all the things I've been involved with
 in my life, as I go through them, if we uncover a better way
 to do them, I always like to be flexible and do that. In my
 judgment, this is a much better way.
    See, the best we could have hoped for if everything had
 happened just right is that I would have been your servant
 in the White House. Under the program we're talking about
 tonight, we can very realistically hope that the person in
 the White House and the people in the House and Senate will
 be your servants and everybody anywhere will be your servant
 right after the 1992 election.
    Now, if we had taken it step by step, it would have taken
 us, say, 6 years to do it. We don't have 6 years in our
 economy. One of the things that drives this new idea is we
 need action now and we need sure-footed action now. And in 1
 bold stroke, you the people can capture the House, the
 Senate and the White House. It's up to you. But I won't quit
 on you, don't worry about that.
    KING: New York City.
    Q: Hello, Larry, great show.
    KING: Hi, thank you.
    Q: Mr Perot, have you not treated this presidential
 campaign as a rich man's toy in which you've never made a
 real commitment, and played with the hopes and dreams of
 millions of Americans, only to dash their hopes when it
 wasn't fun for you anymore?
    PEROT: It never was fun for me, number 1. Number 2, I've
 worked on it night and day, 7 days a week, since I started.
 Number 3, certainly I don't want to dash anybody's hopes and
 dreams, and if I did, I wouldn't be here tonight having this
 discussion. And I certainly understand your position, I'm
 sensitive to your position. And you just have to decide what
 the right thing for you to do is.
    I know you love this country and you're committed or you
 wouldn't be saying the things you're saying. You just have
 to decide what the right step for you as a citizen/part-
 owner is from this point forward.
    KING: Never was fun to you?
    PEROT: The rallies.
    KING: The rallies?
    PEROT: Oh, no, no. When you're with the volunteers and
 you're at the rallies, and you're doing the real work of the
 real people, it is pure fun. Pure fun. All the phony stuff,
 you just have to hold your nose and do it.
    Now, here's the other thing--
    KING: Were you ready to come forward--were we going to
 hear the Perot platform?
    PEROT: Oh, sure.
    KING: Were we close to hearing--
    PEROT: Yes.
    KING: --economic program--
    PEROT: You know, but now, interestingly enough, the more
 deeply I got into that, that's when I realized you've got to
 have the House, the Senate and the White House ready to
 march in step. And what we're laying out here tonight is a
 plan to have the House, the Senate and the White House march
 in step, fix the economy, put America back to work.
    KING: What did you think of Bill Clinton's speech last
 night?
    PEROT: I didn't get to hear it. I mean, I'm sorry, I was
 traveling.
    KING: You didn't watch it?
    PEROT: No, I did not get to hear it.
    KING: Did you read it this morning?
    PEROT: No, I didn't get to read it. I was coming up here
 this morning, so--all I do is travel. So you know, in terms
 of am I going night and day? I'm going night and day, yes.
    KING: We'll be back with Ross Perot and more phone calls.
 Again, we thank him for staying, we thank the powers that be
 at CNN for giving us the extra time, and we'll be with you
 till the bottom of the hour. Get more calls in. Don't go
 away.
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