HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: daveh@usage.csd.oz (David Hume)
Subject: Altimeters - 8000m+  mechanical vs. digital vs. GPS
Reply-To: daveh@spectrum.cs.unsw.oz.au (David Hume)
Organization: none
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 00:55:29 GMT

Can anyone provide info on accuracy/ease of use/cost of extreme altitude
measuring devices (technical, personal, or otherwise)?
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: blanchad@rintintin.Colorado.EDU (BLANCHARD DAVID OWEN)
Subject: Re: "You know you're old when" revisited
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1992 05:20:49 GMT

In article <1992Nov06.001037.20078@news.mentorg.com> jane_merrow@mentorg.com writes:
>
>-- 
>
>Another side question, how many folks out there climb with
>their spouses?
>
>-----------------------------
>Jane Merrow, Mentor Graphics Corporation, Portland, Oregon

My wife and I are regular climbing partners (and approaching 40)

David Blanchard
Boulder, Colorado
dob@esg1.nssl.erl.gov
From: jacobson5821@iscsvax.uni.edu
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: To Martin Fahje from Paul
Date: 9 Nov 92 12:21:09 -0600
Organization: University of Northern Iowa

Martin Fahje-
        I haven't been able to email you anything.  For some reason my computer
tells me that it is an illegal address.  As far as I know it isn't illegal on
my side, I have emailed quite a few people and everything is fine with them. 
Email me back, maybe I'm doing something wrong.
                                 
                                Thanks,
                                        Paul Jacobson

Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: ande@sierra.com (Ande Rychter)
Subject: RE: Altimeters - 8000m+  mechanical vs. digital vs. GPS
Organization: Sierra Geophysics Inc.,  Kirkland, Wa
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1992 00:12:27 GMT

In article: 3965 of rec.climbing David Hume writes:

> Can anyone provide info on accuracy/ease of use/cost of extreme altitude
> measuring devices (technical, personal, or otherwise)?

For personal use you can't beat THOMMEN altimeters.  For accurate
scientific work you may consider a GPS since you will be getting absolute 
altitude irrespective of the local air pressure.  A word of warning.  
Anything running on batteries will almost certainly fail at high altitude 
because of battery exhaustion due to low temperature, or because of icing 
of contacts and switches.  Note that GPS won't give you air pressure 
variation info, an important factor in forecasting weather, especially in 
places where you can't count on a broadcast weather report.

THOMMENs come in two flavors, 5000 m and 10,000 m maximum graduation.
You can also get them in a foot graduation but nobody understands feet
where you are going.  Maps for the regions with 8000m+ mountains are in
meters.

These altimeters are all mechanical and are next to guaranteed to work
at high altitude.  You can adjust them for changing air pressure either
by re-setting the altitude reading at known altitude locations or, if
you are in a radio range of an airport with an ATIS, you may calibrate 
by known air pressure.  This option requires a working air band receiver.

The reading resolution in THOMMENs is 10 m but you will be able to 
interpolate to 5 m.  This won't be your problem.  To maintain
good accuracy you will have to allow for air pressure changes which are much
greater than the resolution of the dial.  In expedition situations, determine
the elevations of the base camp and the advanced camps and reset the altimeter 
while at those locations.  (It takes about 5 seconds to reset a THOMMEN.)
Unless air pressure changes very rapidly, your altimeter will be surprisingly 
accurate.

Sometimes THOMMENs require an adjustment so that the current air pressure 
and the absolute altitude are simultaneously correct.  This can be done by
turning a tiny screw in the back of the altimeter.  To do it right you 
must know your exact absolute altitude and air pressure reduced to the 
sea level.  The ideal place to do this is at an airport.  Just call the
tower and ask for the tarmac elevation and the latest air pressure.
Convert the pressure from inches Hg (standard aviation units) to the units
of your altimeter and turn the screw until altitude and pressure are correct.
A slightly flattened paper clip works fine as a screwdriver.  This adjustment
is needed only once (unless you drop your THOMMEN on concrete, which, btw,
it should survive!).

THOMMEN (a Swiss outfit) has been making these models for a long time.  
Not much on them can be improved.   You may safely disregard the competition.
I've used mine for the last 15 years, often in strange places. -AR
From: bobh@minaret.hwr.arizona.edu
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Need info on "The Mace" in Sedona
Date: 5 Nov 92 15:48:19 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Arizona -- Tucson, AZ

I recall that a trip report about climbing "The Mace",
near Sedona, AZ was posted recently. I'm probably going to
go up an climb it in a couple of weeks, and would like any
route info that any of you could provide. Is it in any guide
book? Has a description been written up in the mags? 

Thanks,

Bob Harrington
From: jeffw@or.credence.com (Jeff Winslow)
Subject: Re: An Open Letter: Re: Who Cares?
Organization: Credence Systems Corp. Beaverton, OR
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1992 01:39:27 GMT

|>Long missive from Eugene Miya DELETED.
|>..
|>Who cares? Who cares? Who cares?!
|>It's disgusting all this concern with someone's sexual status!
|
|This is the best post I have *ever* seen from a .edu site, and
|the best answer yet to one of Eugene's rec.* social experiments.


Aaaaaaaaah, yer both full of shit. Nobody's forcing you to read them.

						Jeff Winslow
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: rainer@spot.Colorado.EDU (Rainer Malzbender)
Subject: Re: No More Write-Ups?
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 06:07:16 GMT


Ah, the humor-impaired and self-righteous jump in for the kill ....
The first part of the post was *supposed* to be taken tongue-in cheek, people.
I came to Colorado via California and regularly climb in the valley with my
bro from Palo Alto.

Some moron, probably someone who only climbs plastic, I forget who, wrote:
> Don't blame him a bit. Glad my original partners were competent.
> No shit! Multi-pitch with one belay-RAPPEL device??  
> What did you do jump? You didn't have a rap device! Jesus, you're scary.

Yeah, of course it was a bad move - it was also in my first year of climbing.
I mentioned it purely as an example of what can happen - if it makes another
person think more carefully while climbing, its purpose will have been
served. And yes, of course I used a biner rappel - ever hear of it? To my
mind *you* are the scary climber if you can't extricate yourself from a
precarious situation without all your specialized gear! The incident was
one example of what happens when you fuck up, which we certainly did. But
most climbers have some kind of hair-raising story to tell.

Actually, this is really funny, because if you talk to anyone who has
climbed with me, they'll tell you I'm ridiculously safe about climbing, to
the point of wimpishness. I put in more pro on a belay than anyone I know.
And anyway, I exaggerated slightly - even though the rope was ripping my hands
I held on as tight as I could and let my friend down pretty easily (his
quitting climbing had nothing to do with that, and we're still good friends).

Regarding John Black's comments: I'm just sorry you took this all so
seriously! Of course it was ludicrous! I have nothing against California
or Colorado climbers (the French are better than both, anyway :-) :-)

> This is ludicrous; Kor's trips to the valley did not prove that "Colorado
> climbers reigned supreme," they proved that Kor reigned supreme.  Not to 
> mention that although Kor's valley exploits were notable, "reign supreme" is
> probably a bit of an overstatement considering that there were many other
> climbers in the valley in the 60's who also accomplished notable things.

I guess I'll refrain from posting if late night combinations of bad humor
and war stories provoke such responses. Let's get back to really important
stuff, like what kind of shoes to buy.

-- 
Rainer M. Malzbender      'Cause when love is gone, there's always justice.
Fyzzicks                   And when justice is gone, there's always force.
CU Boulder                 And when force is gone, there's always Mom. Hi Mom.
From: hall@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Hal F Lillywhite)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: Law Suits!!
Date: 11 Nov 92 14:59:50 GMT
Organization: Tektronix Inc., Beaverton, Or.

In article <ufessex.721460742@mcl> ufessex@mcl.ucsb.edu (Fabian E. Schonholz) writes:
>Law suits is the only thing I hear when it comes down to selling gear or 
>building an out side wall that is worth the money put into it. Same thing
>when it comes down to climb in pribate land. Land owners do not want the
>trubles, and us the *climbers* have to pay for it by not having acces to 
>a probably many good climbing areas...

> hope that Clinton knows what he is doing...

Sorry, don't expect any help from Clinton in this area.  He is
against tort reform to the point that the Arkansas trial lawyers
association openly claimed to have him in their pocket (source: _US
News and World Report_, sorry, I don't remember which issue).
Whatever else he may do for us we will have to look elsewhere if we
want to reform our legal system (like to ourselves and the
initiative process available in most states).
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: sshostek@sshostek.mentorg.com (Steve Shostek)
Subject: Re: Law Suits!!
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 21:46:47 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: mentor
Keywords: 
Followup-To: 

All this talk about law suits reminds me of a quote from the Idaho Law
Review that was on a postcard I received from a climbing friend in Alaska...


"A venturesome minority will always be eager to get off on their own... let
them take risks, for Godsake, let them get lost, sunburnt, stranded, 
drowned, eaten by bears, buried alive under avalanches- that is the right
and privilege of any free American."

   -- 16 Idaho Law Review 407, 420 - 1980.
 

-- 
* steve_shostek@mentorg.com         | Harmony with land is like harmony with  *
* sshostek@mentorg.com              | a friend. You cannot cherish his right  *
* {uunet, attunix}!mntgfx!sshostek  | hand and chop off his left.             *
* (503)685-7000 x3625               |          --Aldo Leopold                 *
From: jreece@sousa.intel.com (John Reece)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: Law Suits!!
Date: 12 Nov 92 18:27:29 GMT
Reply-To: jreece@sousa.intel.com
Organization: Intel - Information Technologies

In article <BxK7Jo.3ws@world.std.com>, gnray@world.std.com (Garry N Ray) writes:
> The conclusion is worse
> than the accident: American jurors look as these cases as one more lottery
> game where they might be the next winner. "Jeepers. A million dollars....!"

It's really the *judges*, not the juries, that are behind many of these
verdicts.   The judge, after all, decides what evidence is to be presented
and instructions will be given the jury on how to reach the different 
verdicts.  The judge also has the option, rarely exercised, to reduce
an award, toss out a case, or make an unsuccessful plaintiff pay legal costs.
-- 
John Reece			"This lifeboat is full"	
Not an Intel spokesman 			 
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: mmartin@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu (Mike Martin)
Subject: ATC Recall
Organization: University of Denver, Dept. of Math & Comp. Sci.
Distribution: usa
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 92 00:13:40 GMT


I heard today that there was a recall of BD ATC by REI because
of a problem which BD was addressing in ATC delivered after
October, 1992.  I don't know what the problem is but I have
heard a RUMOR (not necessarily to be believed) that the device
was believed to cause excesssive rope wear on rappel.

I called the Seattle 800 number for REI and confirmed that
a recall had been issued for ATC delivered before October, 1992.
I don't know if it is a BD recall or an REI recall but REI
suggested a return to an REI store or to some address which
I didn't take down because there are 2 REI stores in this area.

REI was offering refunds or replacement although they haven't
had any stock for a while.

The RUMOR claimed that the device caused too sharp a bend in
the rope.  Is anyone out there in touch with BD to confirm
or deny?

mike martin
mmartin@math.du.edu
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: uchpcjv@Msu.oscs.montana.edu
Subject: No More Wright-Ups?
Reply-To: uchpcjv@Msu.oscs.montana.edu
Organization: Montana State University
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 20:23:31 GMT


Just finished reading the "Eldo" write up.  A few comments;

(1)  Yes, Bill, unfortunately there does seem to be a bit of an anti-
Californian sentiment in the Boulder area.  No idea why.  I lived in
Eldo for a couple years and noticed that in the Boulder-Denver area
that "everyone is from somewhere else".  So maybe it's the expatriots
from Deleware and New Jersey that hate the Californians (?).  
(2)  Nearly decking off pitch one of Touch-and-Go seems a near universal
phenomenon.  I belayed a partner on Wasabe Roof (I think it's 5.12), and
then we went to do Bolting for Glory (5.10) via the first pitch of T&G.
Same guy falls off and decks on pitch one of T&G.  Go figure.
(3)  What?  No chalk?  In Eldorado?  Is that allowed?

We'll miss the posts.  The 1/2-Dome article and various big-wall/long route
write-ups were a welcomed addition to the usual rec.climbing board of fare.
Best of luck in the Oil Business

(And Bill loaded up the truck an' he moved to {fill in venue}....hills
that is...).

YAHOODIES FROM BIG SKY
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: srclark@happy.colorado.edu
Subject: RElearning to lead
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: 5 Nov 92 12:01:56 MDT



Hi,

I had been climbing for a few months when I took my second lead fall in 
September. I was trying to do my first 5.8 lead on a route (Place in the Sun,
Garden of the Gods) that was too runout. I caught my foot on something near
the end of the fall when I was going pretty fast and broke my ankle.

My problem is that since I've started climbing again I've found I've lost
a *lot* of confidence. I ended up backing off the lead on a route that I
previously had wired. I really didn't expect to have psych problems. I
expected to just pick up where I left off.

Any suggestions on how to get back on the lead horse? I've joined the local
climbing gym and think that once I get my lead card and practice 'sterile'
leads this might help.

Thanks,

Steve
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: max@megatek.com (Max Elliot)
Subject: Re: IMAX theaters
Organization: Megatek Corporation, San Diego, California
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 17:17:20 GMT

From article <1992Nov4.203123.60399@cc.usu.edu>, by sinclair@cc.usu.edu (Bob Sinclair):
> Anyone heard anything about an IMAX theater presentation that includes
> footage of a climber taking a big whipper? A colleague at work said he
> saw such a film in San-somewhere or another, but had no further details.
> Claimed it was pretty good though.
> Bob.

  Hmmm. Sounds familiar. I once saw a film entitled 'solo' I think,
  at the Reuben H. Fleet Space Theater in San Diego. It is an IMAX
  theater but I don't recall if the film was an IMAX film. It had
  this one guy doing al sorts of slightly insane solo work, and 
  a number of roped sessions, one of which involved a fall and the
  rope nearly breaking (a few kern fibers left intact). These were
  staged, of course, but scary nonetheless. 
-Max
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: eru@watson.ibm.com (Erich Ruetsche)
Subject: Re: No More Write-Ups?
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 10:02:06 GMT
Reply-To: eru@titlis.zurich.ibm.com (Erich Ruetsche)
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM Zurich Research

>Rainer M. Malzbender writes: I have nothing against California
> or Colorado climbers (the French are better than both, anyway :-) :-)

Thats not quite true: The german Stefan Glowazc won the last worlcup competiton
and SWISS Susi Good is still world Champion ;^)  ;^)

Erich Ruetsche
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: czichon@psyche.csc.ti.com (Cary Czichon)
Subject: Rock & Ice #52: Letter about Climbing Elitism
Organization: Texas Instruments
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1992 00:49:06 GMT

A letter appearing on page 20 of the November/December issue of Rock & Ice
caught my attention.  It fits well with some of the threads on climbing elitism
that have run in this news group.  So, I've appended it below.  Enjoy.

Cary Czichon
czichon@csc.ti.com

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear ROCK & ICE,

I recently took my little boy to the North American Climbing championships at
Snowbird, Utah (July 5).  The mood was festive and there was a lot of excellent
climbing.  One of the more memorable moments came, however, when John Bachar
punched out another spectator.  Is this an example of his much-vaunted
"ethics"?

On a different note, someone (unsubstantiated rumor has it also a California
climber) chopped the toprope/rappel bolts on the popular Ferguson Canyon climb
"Extreme Unction".  The bolts could not be seen from the ground, and, in fact,
could only be seen from the alcove where they were located or from the adjacent
wall.  This climber reportedly took exception to the amount of toproping this
route receives.

Extreme Unction is a very popular route which most people prefer to toprope; I
have seen many people on the climb, but have never seen anyone lead it.

It must be nice to be so morally and spiritually superior; having the power to
make ethical decisions for everyone would be very gratifying.  It's comforting
for those of us who climb for fun to know that someone is out there ready to
take up the burden of moral, ethical and stylistic decisions on our behalf.  I
realize now that I am not right-thinking and capable enough to make "correct"
choices for myself.  Best to leave such decisions to the truly elite.

Bob Bland
Copperton, UT
From: Paul.Williams@brunel.ac.uk (Paul M Williams)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: How Safe is KENYA?
Date: 10 Nov 92 10:20:51 GMT
Organization: Brunel University, Uxbridge, UK
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]

'm planning a trip to Mt Kenya at Xmas and I hope someone out there might be able to give me reasonably accurate and upto date information on the political and social stability out there at the moment, I've heard some alarming rumors. The group as a whole can only spend 2 weeks out there (much too short a time) and I was considering staying out there a further fortnight on my own. Advise on whether to stay climbing on the mountain or spend two weeks on Mombasa beach would be appreciated.

Cheers 

Paul.
From: uchpcjv@Msu.oscs.montana.edu
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: red rocks
Date: 13 Nov 92 03:57:52 GMT
Article-I.D.: Msu.00963855.946AC800
Reply-To: uchpcjv@Msu.oscs.montana.edu
Organization: Montana State University

In article <ufai.721596295@mcl>, ufai@mcl.ucsb.edu (Fai Wong) writes:
>
>
>Hello climbing dudes!
>
>Just wanted to say that I'm going to Red Rocks this
>weekend and I'm pretty happy about it.
>
>If anyabody else is going this weekend I'll see you
>there.  If not, then I won't!

LUCKY BASTARD.
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: eru@watson.ibm.com (Erich Ruetsche)
Subject: Re: RElearning to lead
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 11:15:30 GMT
Reply-To: eru@titlis.zurich.ibm.com (Erich Ruetsche)
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM Zurich Research Laboratory

Climbing is first of all fun !! So learning to lead should be done in an
area where leading can be doen without any fear. That means good holds and
good anchors == BOLTS. In the courses I teach I want that everybody leads his
first route the first day he climbs. So a beginner first climbs a few easy routes
and then leads the one which he likes most.  To support him I often climb by his 
his side and give him advice when and how to clip in the runners which are already 
in place. This first leading experience which gives most beginners a boost in their
motivation and belief in their abilities. So they learn the 
technical side of climbing in a perfect secure environement. 
Climbing with removable anchors starts after quite a bit experience with bolted
routes. As our limbstone is not very suitable for the use of Rocks and Friends
the most important thing to learn with these anchors is : NEVER FALL. 

So my experience with older climbers is the same: learn to lead in bolded routes
and if you feel confidend go for the more adventurous stuff. 
A good friend(53) started climbing after 20 years pause and succeeded 2 years later 
the quite famous 'Supertramp' on Bockmattli in the Glarner Alpes,
a quite scary 8- (UIAA), the first route in this difficulty in the alpes.

Erich Ruetsche, eru@zurich.ibm.com
climbing and living in the swiss alpes


Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: storm@geog.utah.edu (John Storm)
Subject: Re: Fall factors
Organization: DIGIT Lab
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 92 18:25:36 GMT

In article <jking.721031024@syzygy>, jking@socs.uts.edu.au (smathy werp) writes:
 
|> peter .. 
|> 	this is NOT TRUE .. the force is directly related to the Fall Factor
|> 	try it one day .. the bigger the fall the more the rope stretches
|> 	and the softer the deceleration (although you have more acceleration
|> 	to kill .. so it makes exactly the same force as a small fall
|> 	with the same fall factor) .. hence the less it hurts ..
|> 
|> 	.. ill wait for the following flames from THIS entry .. 


Flame on!  Assumption ... force = hurt, meaning that the force applied
to the rope is the same (has to be, the newt's 3rd law!) as the force the
rope applies to you.  The rope factor of the fall is a measurement of the
ropes ability to absorb this force.  If a 20' factor 2 = a 100' factor 2,
as far as the rope's ability to dissipate the force - then the force you
will feel from the rope will also be equal, at 20' or 100'.

You even said it yourself "so it makes exactly the same force as a small fall
with the same fall factor)"

Somebody else can do the experiment though :-)

Newton understood these things - thats why he free soloed so much :-)

John Storm	Internet: storm@geog.utah.edu
SLC UT		Climber's-net: 1-900-slander
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: DERAUTT@vm.ucs.UAlberta.CA
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Climbing during COMDEX
Date: 9 Nov 92 19:52:53 GMT
Organization: University Of Alberta, Edmonton

I will be In las Vegas next week attending COMDEX . If anyone is interested
in doing some 5.10a-b climbs, please contact me directly. I have never
climbed in the area AND I am looking forward to some great scenery.

I have heard a lot of good things about the area are there any suggested
climbs?

Thanks,
Duane D. Erautt
Programmer/Analyst
University of Alberta
From: j_elison@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Jeff Elison)
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 16:34:39 GMT
Subject: Re: Trip Report: A Day in Eldorado
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Fort Collins, CO, USA
Newsgroups: rec.climbing


> He didn't let me escape without making a crack about me being
> from California.  Is there an attitude problem towards Californians
> in Colorado?
> I know this problem exists to some extent in the Northwest.

Doesn't this attitude toward Californians exist everywhere? ;-)

Sorry to see you leave the Net.

Mort

Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: bruceg@Cadence.COM (Bruce Gustifson)
Subject: Re: Yes, we do exist
Organization: Cadence Design Systems, Inc.
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 22:29:13 GMT

In article <3179@ucl-cs.uucp> L.Dekker@cs.ucl.ac.uk writes:
>Thank God someone said something!
>
>
>Perhaps it would be even more accurate to say that they're
>all  m a l e  Yanks talking about the size of their hands.   
>
>
>	Laura

  Well, Laura, I think it would be fair to say that us yanks 
feel a compulsion to talk about the size of different parts
of our bodies. I guess it's a good thing that you read this
newsgroup and not some others!

Newsgroups: rec.climbing