HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: drw3l@delmarva.evsc.Virginia.EDU (David Robert Walker)
Subject: Re: How Jays acquired Maldonado
Organization: University of Virginia
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 19:26:57 GMT

In article <1gaimaINNfgt@uwm.edu> paul@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Paul R Krueger) writes:
>In article <Bz2A59.4Ir@ecf.toronto.edu> hora@ecf.toronto.edu (HO ROBERT ANDREW) writes:
>>In article <Dec.10.13.26.36.1992.6621@pilot.njin.net> gajarsky@pilot.njin.net (Bob Gajarsky - Hobokenite) writes:
>>>dave@snitor.sni.ca (Dave Till) writes:
>>>
>>
>>>>LF: Maldonado (trade?)
>>>i believe he was a free agent...
>>
>>Yep.
>>
>   Nope. The winner is guesser number one. The Jays got Candy from Milwaukee
>   late in the '91 season for William Suero and I think some other nobody.

The other nobody was a pitcher named Rob Wishnevski; Suero was a PTBNL.

Wishnevski is coming off a year when he was 1-0 with 9 SV and a 1.04
ERA in 13 G at El Paso. At Denver he struggled, 5.03 ERA, 9-6 record,
3 SV (looks like he pitched more middle relaif). 64 K and 32 non-IBB
in 77 IP, at age 25. 

>      
>   BTW, I intially started this Jays buy the team thread and have to admit
>   that upon further review (sorry to use an ex *and* future football term)
>   Toronto hasn't bought itself a winner. The excess cash has come into play,
>   but nice trades and acquistitions have been Gillick's forte. 
>
>   Still, being a vengeful Brewer fan I can make unjust and unfounded
>   accusations against the Evil Empire (the Jays), can't I? :)
>
>   --salty
>
  All you want.

  Clay D.

>


Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu (Ted Frank)
Subject: Oquendo
Reply-To: thf2@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 22:37:34 GMT

In article <8105@news.duke.edu> jose@math.duke.edu (Greg Lawler) writes:
>In article <1992Dec17.064945.24146@bradley.bradley.edu>, dave@bradley.bradley.edu (David Vessell) writes:
>> Well, you failed to take into consideration that, in all likelihood, Jose
>> Oquendo will resume his starting position at 2nd for the Cardinals.  His
>> ..300 bat and 40+ SB speed might make more of a difference than Pena.
>> 
>  I think you are right that Jose may return to second base.  His defense
>is much better than Pena's.  However even I (an Oquendo fan since 1980)
>must admit that he does not have 40+ SB speed ;  also, while he might hit
>.300, a .275 average (with a lot of walks) is more to be expected.

Jose hasn't hit .275 since 1989.  (and has never hit .300).  I see more
of a .240 to .250 (with about 60 walks).  It'll be close to see if he
slugs .300.

You were an Oquendo fan when he was 16?
-- 
ted frank                     | thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu 
standard disclaimers          | void where prohibited
the university of chicago law school, chicago, illinois 60637
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu (Ted Frank)
Subject: Re: All-Time A's Team
Reply-To: thf2@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Distribution: na
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 17:07:45 GMT

In article <1992Dec16.165257.5844@cbnewse.cb.att.com> zurawski@cbnewse.cb.att.com (lawrence.w.zurawski) writes:
>
>	I haven't seen an All-Time A's team yet, so here goes:
>
>	1B Foxx
>	2B Collins
>	3B Baker
>	SS Campaneris
>	OF Henderson
>	OF Jackson
>	OF Simmons

I'd put Canseco ahead of Simmons.  If McGwire has a nother couple of seasons
with the A's like the last one, I'd put him ahead of Foxx.

>	SP Grove
>	SP Waddell
>	SP Plank
>	SP Hunter
>
>	RP Fingers
>	RP Eckersley
>
>	Manager Mack

For longevity, maybe... The A's have also had Dick Williams, Billy Martin,
and Tony LaRussa.  Tough call.
-- 
ted frank                     | thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu 
standard disclaimers          | void where prohibited
the university of chicago law school, chicago, illinois 60637
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: tsait@rebecca.its.rpi.edu (Theodore Leonard Tsai)
Subject: Re: Statheads and park effects
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy, NY
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1992 05:21:28 GMT

In article <1992Dec20.040057.29179@midway.uchicago.edu> thf2@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>In article <1992Dec20.034702.1492@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> akamholz@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Andrew E Kamholz) writes:
>>Perhaps Boggs just doesn't hit well of the road- like on road trips.
>>(Maybe he is too busy with other pursuits!) So maybe settling in Yankee
>>Stadium, he will hit like he is home. Let's all remember that it's not
>>necessarily the park- it could be the state of mind.
>
>Yeah, I guess that Boggs got an extra 10 doubles a year from the layout of
>Fenway that will be flyouts in Yankee Stadium is completely irrelevant.  And
>I'm sure playing an extra 70 games a year in a stadium with a much larger
>foul territory will do absolutely nothing to his batting average.  

Hmm.  Well, he won't have the green monster to play ping pong off of, so
he's not going to be trying to hit it there in the first place.  And usually
when I see him foul balls off, they're slapped way off into the stands (could 
be wrong, naturally).  Of course, if he'll stay healthy all year is something
to be considered...
>
>If park effects are irrelevant, why is it that both Boston hitters *and*
>their opponents consistently hit much better in Fenway?  Year after year
>after year?  Or do just the hitters have the state of mind, and the pitchers
>somehow feel more comfortable on the road?  Maybe the visiting hitters
>are extra relaxed at Fenway because they hit X-night at Axis the day before
>the game, while the visiting pitchers feel bloated from eating at the
>Wursthaus.  And if they switched their activities, the pitchers would
>do better and the hitters would do worse.
>
>But I suspect the park has a lot more to do with it. 
>
>I grew up going to games in the Astrodome.  Then I went to Wrigley on
>a windy day.  There's simply no comparison.  Even though the weather was
>cold and miserable, the ball *flew* off of the bats.  The foul territory
>was smaller.  There were five home runs hit that day, and in the 'Dome, 
>you'd be lucky to see five home runs in a week.  Seeing isn't everything,
>but, boy, do the statistics back me up on this.
>-- 
>ted frank                     | thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu 
>standard disclaimers          | void where prohibited
>the university of chicago law school, chicago, illinois 60637


Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: Howard_Wong@mindlink.bc.ca (Howard Wong)
Subject: Re: What did Winfield say in Sat. Night News confernce?
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 06:08:17 GMT

What's the latest on Winfield? We who are Toronto fans will remember the
grand slam in Seattle, the batting in of the winning run to put Toronto into
the history book, and his leadership qualities. It's hard to put a price tag
on leadership qualities.

Itappears as thought he is headed for another team.  He will be missed.
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: maynard@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca (Roger Maynard)
Subject: Re: Cordero
Organization: Dept. of Computer Science, Laurentian University, Sudbury, ON
Distribution: na
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 03:39:50 GMT

In <20384@ucdavis.ucdavis.edu> ez027993@dale.ucdavis.edu (Gary Throwing Hard Huckabay) writes:

>This is a question that pops into my head when people make subjective
>observations like this...

>How do you know?  What, exactly, should a shortstop do when pivoting
>to turn a DP?  What makes a pitcher's mechanics good?  When playing the
>outfield, how should your hips be aligned to the batter?  Where should
>your plant foot be?  When turning your hips to make an off balance throw,
>what three things do you have to do in order to make the best throw possible?

>The fact is, 99% of baseball fans, and 80% of professional baseball players
>can't answer these questions accurately.  That's why I have serious 
>doubts about the stat-bashers on the net who claim that they prefer to go
>by observation.

>Does no one else see the inherent arrogance of stating "All you statheads
>spend your time doing statistics, while the rest of us are observing and
>enjoying the game"?  

>My challenge is this:

>The next time someone (Jason Miller, Roger Maynard, Ron Graham) bashes
>statheads again, or statistics in general, I hope they'll think about this.

Excuse me?  Where have I ever said that I understand the mechanics of the
game any better than a teenage softball player?

My objection is to the people who claim that stats are more useful in the
evaluation of talent than the opinions of professional scouts, whom, I 
presume, could claim, for the most part, that they belong in the 20% of
professionals that you claim are knowledgeable.

Sherri once claimed that talent could be more accurately assessed by 
relying on stats alone and that observation actually hindered the 
evaluation process!  Do you agree with this?  Do you believe, as one
who claims to understand the game on both levels, that observation
hinders the evaluation process?

This is the true arrogance in my opinion.  Certainly stats are useful
in evaluating talent but stats alone do not give us absolutes.

Would you sign a player without looking him over?  Would you claim a player
is the "best" without observing him carefully with your own eyes, or lacking
that level of understanding, wouldn't you at least respect the opinion of 
someone you feel is knowledgeable about the mechanics of the sport?

If you are going to put words in my mouth I would appreciate it if you
made an attempt to understand my point of view first.


as always, a pleasure,

rm

-- 
roger maynard
maynard@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: All-Time A's Team
Originator: news@nimaster
Reply-To: roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig)
Organization: Princeton University
Distribution: na
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 19:35:30 GMT

In article <838@blue.cis.pitt.edu> genetic+@pitt.edu (Dr. Dave) writes:
>Thus spake zurawski@cbnewse.cb.att.com (lawrence.w.zurawski):

>>	I haven't seen an All-Time A's team yet, so here goes:

>Hey, you're cheating!  You took Philly *and* KC *and* Oakland. :-)

>>	1B Foxx
>>	2B Collins

>Hard to argue so far...

>>	3B Baker

>There *has* been a long, dry spell, hasn't there...

Yeah, but his Philly years were *good*.

>>	SS Campaneris

>I might be tempted to take Eddie Joost, actually.  

>>	OF Henderson
>>	OF Jackson
>>	OF Simmons

>Ouch.  Not bad.

>>	C  Cochrane

>Weren't his best years elsewhere?  Or am I confused?  Gene Tenace is probably
>the #2 guy...

Confused.  His best years were 27-33 with Phila; then he got traded
to Det. for two pennants plus a few years until he got beaned w/in an
inch of his life. 33 was his best year.

Again, a long drop to #2, but that's because of where #1 is.

>>	SP Grove
>>	SP Waddell
>>	SP Plank
>>	SP Hunter

>Actually, I'd take Chief Bender before Catfish, I think.  Eddie Rommel
>gets some votes, too.

How about George Earnshaw?  Just a few good years, but he *did* have 
a sabermetrician for a cousin...

>>	RP Fingers
>>	RP Eckersley

>Speaks for itself.

>>	Manager Mack

>>	This team stacks up pretty well alongside the other All-Time teams.

>It gets harder if you split Philly from Oakland.  The outfield for the Philly
>A's looks something like Simmons/Harstel/Bob Johnson.  The pitching staff is
>still sound, but no relief available.  Jack Quinn, maybe.

Hartsel or his neighbor Danny Murphy.  Too bad Roy Thmas played for the
other team...

>The Oakland All-Time team would be something like

>	C	Tenace		(Steinbach)
>	1B	McGwire		
>	2B	Green (feh)
>	3B	Bando
>	SS	Campaneris
>	LF	Henderson
>	CF	Dw. Murphy
>	RF	Reggie
>	DH	Joe Rudi/Harold Baines/Dave Henderson

>	SP	Vida Blue
>	SP	Catfish Hunter
>	SP	Dave Stewart
>	SP	Ken Holtzman

>	RP	Eckersley
>	RP	Fingers

Looks good.

Roger
From: kr2e+@andrew.cmu.edu (Ken Rose)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: JAYS KICK BRAVES JAYS KICK BRAVES JAYS KICK BRAVES JAYS KICK BRAVES
Date: 12 Dec 92 19:31:41 GMT
Organization: University Libraries - Library Automatio, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA

I feel completely humiliated.  I guess Toronto's victory with all their
great Canadian players is really getting to me.  Yeah, that's the ticket.

                                                     Ken "Mr."Rose
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: jeffj@cbnewsm.cb.att.com (jeffrey.n.jones)
Subject: Where to get baseball stats?
Organization: AT&T
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 16:13:51 GMT
Keywords: Why, why, why, why?

Where could I get baseball stats via FTP first, bbs's, online services
second? I need complete yearly stats for as many years as possible.
Thanks for helping out a basebase stat junkie! 8-)

Jeff

GO (sigh) AAAA'S!

-- 
 Jeff Jones  AB6MB         |      
 jeffj@seeker.mystic.com   |     
 Infolinc BBS 415-778-5929 |    
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: kbanaian@bernard.pitzer.claremont.edu (King Banaian)
Subject: Re: Brett Boone
Organization: Pitzer College
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 18:49:43 GMT

In article <1992Dec18.153652.2691@noose.ecn.purdue.edu> ts@chainsaw.ecn.purdue.edu (Thomas Ruschak) writes:
>From: ts@chainsaw.ecn.purdue.edu (Thomas Ruschak)
>Subject: Brett Boone
>Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 15:36:52 GMT
>In article <AwS=GYC@engin.umich.edu> chyang@metaphor.engin.umich.edu (Chung Hsiung Yang) writes:
>>
>>	Now Seattle has young Bret Boon at the second base.  He came 
>>from the Boon lineage in Baseball and he seems to be a solid player.
>
>	What's so special about him? I know baseball is in love with sons
>of old players, which can be good or bad, but still, what's good about him?
>I didn't get to see him play last year, so all I have to go on is his age
>(21?), and his stats:

Below your major league figures are his minor league figures and MLE, from 
STATS Minor League Handbook:
>
>BATTERS   BA   SLG   OBP   G  AB   R   H  TB 2B 3B HR RBI  BB  SO SB CS  E
>BOONE,B .194  .318  .224  33 129  15  25  41  4  0  4  15   4  34  1  1  6
@Calgary .314  .485  .398 118 439  73 138 213 26  5 13  73  60  88 17 12  ?
MLE      .262  .387  .325 118 408  47 107 168 21  3  8  47  38  95 10 10

Given he costs 1/10 of a Harold Reynolds and can improve, I'd have to give 
him the job.

Anyone have a source for minor league fielding stats???  I agree that the 
errors are troubling...
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: erics@sco.COM (eric smith)
Subject: Willie Mays statement
Organization: The Santa Cruz Operation, Inc.
Distribution: rec
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 20:25:55 GMT


I heard Willie Mays on the radio last night making a statement to the
crowd at the ceremony at which Dusty Baker was named the Giants' new
manager. It went something like (and I probably don't remember it
exactly): "I am proud of you because you have opened your hearts to
this man [Baker], in a city which I never thought would have a black
manager".

So, did he just forget about Frank Robinson? Or am I misunderstanding
the point he was making?

-----
Eric Smith
erics@sco.com
erics@infoserv.com
CI$: 70262,3610
From: sweda@css.itd.umich.edu (Sean Sweda)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: The best All-Time  Team?  Lineups?  Per division?
Date: 11 Dec 1992 18:35:06 GMT
Organization: University of Michigan ITD Consulting and Support Services
Distribution: na
NNTP-Posting-Host: stimpy.css.itd.umich.edu

In article <1fstomINNfbl@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> dxf12@po.CWRU.Edu (Douglas Fowler) writes:
>
>     Well, I've been thinking about this type of thread for 3 years.  I
>began a little season on some scrap paper, and now there are great pennant
>races in each division, the Rangers/Senators are managed by Alexander
>Cartwright, the San Diego Padres made a trade to get offense and now have
>a team e.r.a. of around 5.80...
>     But, I'm getting ahead of myself. (Especially if the lockout isn't
>till next year, in which case I'll start describing the season in early
>'94; this should take the place of part of the regular season and keep us
>at least thinking about the game.)  What are some fantasic All-Star lineups
>per team?  2 of the best I've come up with (counting singing of top Negro
>League stars) would be:
>      Yankees                 Red Sox
>2b Lazzeri/Randolph        cf Speaker
>cf    DiMaggio             ss John "Pop" Lloyd (great Negro Leaguer)
>rf    Ruth                 3b Boggs
>1b    Gehrig               lf Williams
>cf    Mantle               1b Yastrzemski
>c  Berra/Dickey            rf Evans
>3b    Nettles              c  Fisk
>p   Ford, Gomez,           p  Young, Ruth, Clemens, Grove
>    Guidry
>

But did you think about the Tigers?  (w/o any free-agents)

c	Mickey Cochrane
1b	Hank Greenberg
2b	Charlie Gehringer
3b	George Kell
	(hey, didn't Eddie Matthews finish up his career with
	 the Tigers?  I guess we're going on value when playing
	 for the team)
ss	Alan Trammell
lf	Goose Goslin
cf	Ty Cobb (really a lf, but could play cf)
rf	Al Kaline

bench	Bill Freehan, Norm Cash, Lou Whitaker, Harvey Kuenn,
	Sam Crawford, Rocky Colovito, Lance Parrish

sp	Jack Morris, Denny McLain, Mickey Lolich, Schoolboy Rowe,
	Hal Hewhouser

rp	Don Mossi, Willie Hernandez, Aurelio Lopez, John Hiller

and-->	Mark Fydrich


lineup:

Cobb, cf
Trammell, ss
Gehringer, 2b
Greenberg, 1b
Kaline, rf
Cochrane, c
Goslin, lf
Kell, 3b
pitcher



Probably would give the Yankees a bit of trouble...
(don't even have room for the Yankee killer Lary)

-- 
***********************************************************************
Sean Sweda					sweda@css.itd.umich.edu
GM/Owner Motor City Marauders
Internet Baseball League	  "the Red Sox signed Andre Dawson?!?!"
From: scottb@ppc-a.isc-br.com (SCOTT BURRINGTON)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Cost per win
Date: 15 Dec 92 18:35:08 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: ISC-Bunker Ramo Corporation, Spokane, WA.



In commenting about dollar cost per win, someone posted:

>...  Calculated this way here are the 
>rankings in the previous "gross cost per win".
>   ...
>Team           New Cost per W    New Rank  Old Rank 
>   ...
>Seattle        $2,382,833           25        16  franchise is adrift
>   ...
>The surprise was how poor Seattle turned out when compared to replacement 
>level.  I didn't realize salary level was so high. No wonder they dumped 
>Mitchell.

I followed Seattle pretty closely last year, and my impression was
that of a team having a very unlucky year.  Now, I realize I have
a very biased point of view, so I have this request:

I have seen posts whereby a teams number of wins can be calculated
thru some formula (Pythagorean?) using a combination of stats
(runs scored? runs allowed?).  If I didn't dream this up, has someone
posted a "Luck Factor" report about teams variance between expected
wins and actual wins?  Or has this been done to death and I somehow
missed it?

-Scott
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: dae@cbnews.cb.att.com (david.a.elliott)
Subject: Re: Belcher
Organization: AT&T
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 14:25:34 GMT

In article <1992Dec17.025259.1520@midway.uchicago.edu> thf2@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>In article <BzDpEM.Lpx@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> scooby@prelude.cc.purdue.edu (Charles Mcwilliams) writes:
>>> And who do they have behind the 450 innings they'll get from Rijo and
>>> Smiley?  Smoltz, Avery and Smith are all better than the Reds #3 
>>pitcher.
>>
>>Aren't you forgetting a guy named Belcher?   Sure he had an off year, but
>>I'm sure he'll return to his old form with the improved run support he'll  
>>be getting :)  
>
>Everyone will improve this year, but everyone's going to get their
>four or five starts against the Marlins and Rockies.  Relative to
>the Braves?  I'd take Smoltz.  Or Avery.  Smith is a tossup, because I
>don't know if he's for real.

I listened to Jim Bowden (Reds GM) on Cincy radio last night, and he had
some interesting things to say.

He rates the Braves staff as superior to the Reds, but feels the teams are
comparable over all.  He conceded that the Braves' rotation has the highest
quality and most depth of any in the league.

The Reds feel Pugh is ready, and they are also very high on a young pitcher
named Roper (I think they said he's 20, pitched in AA this year, and has
great stuff).  They signed Landrum and Burke in order to increase competition
in spring training, and in case one of the young pitchers falters.

Reggie Sanders is going to play right field, and they have assigned Jose
Cardenal to be his personal defensive coach for the entire spring training.

Kevin Mitchell is working out every day, and has a goal to come to spring
training in shape and 20 pounds lighter.  We'll see about this one.

Doran and Samuel are going to compete for a utility spot.  Put  your money
on Samuel, because of Doran's large contract.

They are looking for a backup infielder and another pitcher (preferably a
starter), which means that they aren't confident Browning will come back
and be effective.



Dave Elliott
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: mb@cray.com (Maynard Brandt)
Subject: Re: All-Time Twins Team
Organization: Cray Research Inc
Distribution: world,local
Date: 11 Dec 92 13:55:37 CST

In article <1992Dec10.225722.1@violet.ccit.arizona.edu> f67700241@violet.ccit.arizona.edu (Greg Franklin) writes:
>In article <471@blue.cis.pitt.edu>, genetic+@pitt.edu (Dr. Dave) writes:
>>Thus spake f67700241@violet.ccit.arizona.edu (Greg Franklin):
>>>Here is my proposal for the all-time Twins team.  I am biased in these
>>>directions: (a) more recent players than early ones, (b) career value over
>>>peak value. Your opinions are welcome.
>> 
>>Neat.  My biases run the opposite direction...

         [stuff deleted]
>
>(Agreement on Kaat, Blyleven, Viola deleted)
>
>>>SP: Kevin Tapani
>> 
>> Say what?
>> 
>> Camilio Pasqual.  Mudcat Grant.
>
>I will go ahead and drop Tapani for Pascual.  And I'll add Al Worthington
>to Aggi in the pen (no real team can go with just one reliever).  And
>I'll make Jim Perry the 5th starter.
>
RHSP: Walter Johnson.  The Twins were the original Washington Senators.

--
Regards,

Maynard Brandt
Cray Research, Inc.
mb@lotus.cray.com
-- 
Regards,

Maynard Brandt
Cray Research, Inc.