HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: cockburn@edieng.enet.dec.com (Craig Cockburn)
Subject: Re: Gaelic && The Celtic Society
Organization: Digital Equipment Co. Ltd., Reading, England
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 16:24:42 GMT


In article <Qeg_Idu00WBMA1wHc2@andrew.cmu.edu>, Rebecca Roolf <rr3b+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes...
>On 11-Sep-92 in Re: Gaelic && The Celtic So..
>user Craig Cockburn@edieng.en writes:
>>In article <athos-100992092917@athos.apple.com>, athos@apple.com (Rick
>Eames) w
>>rites...
>>>I am looking for information on the Celtic Society.
>>> 
>>I've never heard about this society - do you mean the Celtic league?
> 
>The Celtic Society is apparently not very active in the UK, Craig, or so
>a friend who lives in Scotland tells me.  However, I think they do
>exist, albet in a different form than here in the US.  Perhaps partly
>because of animosity between Celtic nations.
> 
>In the US, the Celtic Society is a pan-Celtic society: they try to
>present the different Celtic languages equally, and have a committee
>with representatives for each of the Celtic nations/languages (those
>being the six generally included: Irish, Scottish, Manx, Cornish,
>Breton, Welsh).
> 
This sounds like the Celtic League to me !

>Anyhow, I don't know about chapters in the Bay area, but this is their
>general address in the US.
> 
>The Celtic League, American Branch
>PO Box 20153
>Dag Hammarskjold Postal Center
>New York, NY 10017
> 
I'm confused. In the paragraphs above you were talking about the "Celtic
Society", but the address you gave was for the "Celtic League"

Here's some info on the Celtic League (From "De/ tha dol" ann an Lunnainn) 

          Comunn Ceilteach (The Celtic League)

          An organisation which promotes all the Celtic countries,
          their languages and cultures and campaigns for their
          independence. They  produce a newsletter `Carn' which is
          written in English and  the 6 Celtic languages (Most of  the
          Celtic articles have English summaries). The League has a
          London branch which meets regularly.

          London Contact: Robat ap Tomos, "Dyffryn", Gretton Fields, Gretton,
          Cheltenham, Gloucestershire GL54  5HH.

p.s. I'm in the Celtic League and I've been to a few of their meetings

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Craig Cockburn, Digital Equipment Co. Ltd, Reading, England.     Suas
  Internet: cockburn@edieng.enet.dec.com                           leis
  UUCP:..!decwrl!edieng.enet.dec.com!cockburn                      a'
                                                                   Gha\idhlig!
  Views here are my own, and are not necessarily those of Digital
From: downey@enh.nist.gov
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Sheela-na-gig
Date: 12 Sep 92 22:26:51 GMT
Organization: NIST


Here is an excerpt from Patricia Monaghan's book titled "The Book of
Goddesses & Heroines," page 315:

[It is somewhat graphic since the statues of Sheela-na-gig
are graphic.]

Sheila na Gig - Smiling lewdly out from rock carvings, this goddess of
ancient Ireland can still be seen in remaining petroglyphs:  a grinning
often skeletal face, huge buttocks, full breasts, and bent knees.  What
most observers remember best, however, is the self-exposure of the
goddess, for she holds her genitals open with both hands.

She is the greatest symbol of the life-and-death goddess left in
Ireland, where her stones have in some cases been incporporated as
"gargoyles" in Christian churches.  Her name means "hag"; her grinning
face and genital display are complicated by the apparent ancientness
of her flesh.  Laughter and passion, birth and death, sex and age do
not seem to have been so incompatible to the ancient Irish as they
are to the modern world.

[end of excerpt]

Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
From: walker@sun.soe.clarkson.edu (Graham Walker, 227 West Old Main,268-3847,)
Subject: Picts. Picts. Picts.
Organization: Clarkson University
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 15:30:16 GMT

From article <1992Sep11.152307.1859@news.clarkson.edu>, by walker@sun.soe.clarkson.edu (Graham Walker, 227 West Old Main,268-3847,):
> From article <1992Sep11.094906.15090@dcs.qmw.ac.uk>, by mmh@cs.qmw.ac.uk (Matthew Huntbach):
>> 
>> I would have thought that part of being truly interested in your
>> celtic heritage would involve a concern for accuracy.
>> 
>> Matthew Huntbach
> 
I put this under Celtic Crosses by accident (now it is under the
appropriate heading).

Because of the new requirement for accuracy let me suggest some
"academically sound" material on the Picts.

"Foul Hourdes: The Picts in the North East" by I. Ralston and J. Inglis
Pub. Aberdeen University (this was a catalog which was associated with
an exhibit of Pictish symbol stones). 1984.

"The Symbol Stones of Scotland" by A. Jackson
Pub. Orkney Press (1987) This is by a senior lecturer in the Social
Anthropology Dept. at Edinburgh Univ.

"The Pictish Trail" by A. Jackson
Pub. Orkney Press (1989) Same author as above.

"The Problem of the Picts" by F.T. Wainwright (1955)
Out of print, but is a well regarded "scholarly" work.

															GW
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: What is Ireland's national anthem? Is there one?
From: Aengus Lawlor <RBYAML@rohvm1.rohmhaas.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 16:07:16 EDT
Organization: Rohm and Haas Company

In article <1992Sep8.181424.25765@news.nd.edu>, ulick@angelico.helios.nd.edu
(Ulick Stafford) says:
> In my experience far more Irish
>people are likely to sing their anthem, than is normal, which explains
>why there was great resentment last year at one of the All-Ireland's when
>a soloist was brought in to sing it before the match.
>What happened this year?
>
I don't know about the All-Irelands, but they had a soloist sing the anthem
at the Ireland-USA soccer game in Boston last year. (I was late for the
game in DC, so I'm not sure how they did it this year). Hearing thousands
of voices sing the anthem is a fairly emotional moment in Croker or Lansdown,
but in a foreign stadium, where you're supposed to be out-numbered, it should
be something special. A soloist just doesn't cut it :-(

I hope this isn't one of those "traditions" that the US is going to impose
on the rest of the world for the next World Cup. (And I can already hear the
arguments about tribal rabble-rousing :-(

Aengus
>+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>+ 'There was a  master come unto the earth, + Ulick Stafford, PP-ASEL       +
--
RBYAML@ROHMHAAS.COM                    Aengus Lawlor
RBYAML@ROHVM1.BITNET                   (who used to be ALAWLOR@DIT.IE)
"How about some of that famous Dublin wit, Barman?"
"Certainly, sir. Would that be Dry or Sparkling?"
Xref: sparky soc.culture.celtic:5971 alt.pagan:9191
From: brehonyt@ul.ie
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Looking for Brehon Laws
Date: 11 Sep 92 11:08:18 GMT
Organization: University of Limerick, Ireland


Could anyone out there give me a reference to a book(s) containing
the Brehon Laws and to some kind of overview as to how they functioned
in Celtic society, etc. Thanks.

Tom.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
From: caj@sei.cmu.edu (Carol Jarosz)
Subject:  Highland Games
Organization: The Software Engineering Institute
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 17:29:52 GMT


First off, many thanks to those people that suggested books and poems for me.
Can't wait to start reading!

I will be attending the Highland Games that will be held this Saturday (9/12)
in Ligonier, PA.  This is my first look at the Highland Games.  What can I
expect?  I'm sure it won't be as grand as any games held in larger cities, but
what are the standard games, etc.  I'm also attending the Cieldh(sp?) after
the games.  How do you pronounce that?  What can I expect there?

Thanks in advance!  

Carol
caj@sei.cmu.edu
From: mike@inti.lbl.gov (Michael Helm)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Scots or Picts (was Celtic alchoholism?)
Date: 14 Sep 1992 21:30:25 GMT
Organization: N.I.C.E.
Reply-To: mike@inti.lbl.gov (Michael Helm)
NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.3.128.82
Summary: Keep your straw man

Matthew Huntbach writes:
>From: mike@fionn.lbl.gov (Michael Helm)
>>For all we know, the same sort of people lived in the same spot
>>for thousands of years from Neolithic times & their language & culture
>>just gradually evolved into Celtic.  What would that mean?

>It is unlikely that a group of people in the British Isles
>would have spontaneously evolved a language which is reasonably

Who said anything about "spontaneous evolution"?  You've introduced
that idea.  It is clear from the archaeological record that Ireland
& Britain had extensive contact with each other & with Europe;
I believe I said so in the previous article.  Feel free to create
a straw man & knock it down but don't ascribe it to me, thank you.

>It is possible, of course, that the people were conquered and
>ruled over by a Celtic aristocracy, and eventually adopted the

Unfortunately this, like other hypotheses about a Celtic invasion
or settlement, has no archaeological evidence to support it.
That I know of.  If you come up with some let us know.  I'm kind
of disappointed in its lack.

>the same way as English is now used by many people of
>non-English descent.

True. A lot of people learn English voluntarily, in school,
& from contact with English media (like radio & tv).  Not
all of them (or even many of them)  are conquered subjects
& would probably resent the implication.
From: mmh@cs.qmw.ac.uk (Matthew Huntbach)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: What clan and what tartan?
Date: 10 Sep 92 13:03:15 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Dept, QMW, University of London, UK.

From: mlhb@mammoth.dr.att.com (Sky Warrior)
>My husband comes from Irish and Scottish origins.  We know his Irish side
>very well, but his Scottish origins are murky at best.  On a trip to
>Edinburough, his mother found a number of Scottish Bonhams listed on
>a war memorial.  So far, we've had no luck tracking down what clan the
>Scottish Bonhams are out of and what tartan would be appropriate.

>SKY WARRIOR aka MLH Bonham  | "Good tea.  Nice House." -- Lt. Worf

This is a FAQ; note the pseudonym adopted by Mrs.Bonham BTW,
see my comments on celticry and swords-and-sorcey.

The clan system only existed in the Highlands in the north of
Scotland. The fact that someone is Scottish does not mean that
they can be assigned to a clan. In order to encourage
romantically minded tourists, one occasionally find tables with
suggestions that anyone with, say, the surname "Smith" is part
of the clan "MacDonald". This is all total nonsense, the only
basis being that perhaps a family with that surname at one time
lived on MacDonald land. It surely does not require a great
deal of thought to realise that not everyone with the
surname "Smith" in Scotland, let alone everyone named "Smith"
in the world can thus be said to be "out of" Clan MacDonald.

There is in any case almost no hisorical evidence that specific
tartans were associated with specific clans. It appears that
the associations were invented by cloth manufacturers in the
19th century.

Matthew Huntbach
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
From: cooper@cos.com (Gary Cooper)
Subject: Re: Scots or Picts (was Celtic alchoholism?)
Organization: Corporation for Open Systems
Distribution: world 
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 03:38:49 GMT

In <92239.193651ATDYW@ASUACAD.BITNET> Dan Wilson <ATDYW@ASUACAD.BITNET> writes:

>Wasn't Robert de Brus' mother a Celt? I seem to recall he relied heavily on
>his Celtic blood to gain the confidence of the Highland Chiefs that he
>needed so deperately.

Yes she was - and since, I believe, the Celts were a somewhat
matriarchal society, shouldn't the census check through the
mother through about 250 generations? :>  
-- 
gary cooper (not the dead one)     "Non Dignis Sum!" - Waynus and Gartus 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
From: ulick@angelico.helios.nd.edu (Ulick Stafford)
Subject: Re: What is Ireland's national anthem?  Is there one?
Organization: OUC, University of Notre Dame
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1992 16:32:32 GMT

In article <1992Sep10.155318.20143@schbbs.mot.com> RRSE50@waccvm.corp.mot.com (John Pigott) writes:
>
>Ireland's National Anthem is
>Sine Laochra Fail
>It means 'We are the warriors of Ireland'. It is in gaelic, and usually
>played at sports fixtures etc.

Come on!  Does anyone really use this silly Laochra Fail wording (apart
from staunch Fine Gaeler's?  I was actually taught that this was the
official new wording in National school (teacher was FGer) in an 
attempt to depoliticise the anthem!  The wording predates the formation
of Fianna Fail, the political party, so I don't see a problem.  Why
didn't they change is to Sine Saighduiri Fail, and find another word
for destiny while they're at it!

Other issues.  Noone has mentioned John Henry Bonham yet?  Was he of
Scottish descent.  Personally I go with the Goodman theory rather 
that the Piglet thing!  That is just in Irland and what family name
would mean Piglet!  And does anyone know what clan it is?  We always
used bonham or bonabh for piglets when we kept them.  

Highking coat of Arms are a joke.  Under Brehon law successive 
chiefs were elected from the ruling family by its members, and
the highkingship was fought for by the major Provincial kings?
Didn't Diarmuid McMurrough eventually defeat Rory O'Connor, the
last highking with Norman merceneries (from whom I'm decended)
led by the Earl of Pembroke?  We all object to any O'Connor claim
to the throne! :-)  In fact we object to this groups name - not all
Irish are Celtic and we want our own group that includeds all Irish
and excludes those non Irish Celts, like soc.culture.irish.
      O   \
        -  |
      O   /       -   big smily



+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 
+ 'There was a  master come unto the earth, + Ulick Stafford, PP-ASEL       +
+    born in the holy land of Indiana,      + Dept of Chemical Engineering, +
+ in the mystical hills east of Fort Wayne'.+ Notre Dame, IN 46556          +
+      B'fhearr liom bheith ag eitilt.      +    ulick@bach.helios.nd.edu   +
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
From: suzanne@mailhub.scf.lmsc.lockheed.com (Suzanne Barrett)
Subject: Re: What is Ireland's national anthem?  Is there one?
Organization: Lockheed Santa Cruz, CA.
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 92 14:02:41 GMT

In article <1992Sep8.021940.2305@macc.wisc.edu> oconnell@vms.macc.wisc.edu (Kevin Patrick O'Connell) writes:

>How about it?   Is there a memorable recording of it?  Is it popular 
>among Irish citizens (not as a chart topper, but is it well thought 
>of)?  

>Kevin

>PS--thanks to all who wrote about subscriptions to the Irish times!
>It seems rather pricey right now, but I will start reading it at the
>UW library and see how I like it.

Isn't it The Soldiers' Song?  There're probably many recordings of it; I 
have one by the Clancy Brothers.  It's very stirring; certainly one of the 
better anthems, if indeed, it's the one.
Suzanne
-----
suzanne@mailhub.scf.lmsc.lockheed.com
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
From: walker@sun.soe.clarkson.edu (Graham Walker, 227 West Old Main,268-3847,)
Subject: Re: Celtic Cross
Organization: Clarkson University
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 21:40:11 GMT

From article <1992Sep10.113402.27151@dcs.qmw.ac.uk>, by mmh@cs.qmw.ac.uk (Matthew Huntbach):
> 
> I ask once again, why is it that the word "Celt" attracts so
> many nutty fantasists who have no grasp whatsoever of history
> as conventionally understood.
> 
> Matthew Huntbach

The myth of the celt has been widely promulgated by the likes of Malory
(sp?) and his Aurthurial legends (which have strong magical elements
added in), and also we have the romantic works of Scott etc. Consequently,
anyone who is attracted to Romantic magical fantasy stuff would tend to
be attracted to celtic myths rather than say the myths of the Amazon
peoples. As to why some people are so inclined to be attracted to such
matters has in a sense been addressed by Jung and his explanation of
flying saucer sightings (i.e. the need to feel that there is some ACTIVE
supernatural forces out there which can be called on to help people make
it through the day - as it were; a christian god is not active enough).
There is also the feeling to-day that christianity (and
capitalism) has failed - the environment in particular - and in reaction
some people are looking back to pre-christian times to cultures that
were believed to be more "pro-environment". You do not seem to be aware
that in the US there is also people (non native americans) who have an
active interest in the native american religions, which are also viewed
as being pro-environment. (Personally, I would hope that people were
more forward looking, and not look back to the past for complete solutions
to our present problems, but instead learnt our lessons from the past and
moved on.) Finally, there are a large number of us who are truely interested
in our (celtic) heritage and wise to expore the past, and as I have said,
learn from it.  (Also, before the old saw about only picking my scottish
heritage to explore is brought up, all I have to say is that I was born and
brought up in Scotland as were my parents, all of my grandparents, and as far
back as I can find, all of my other ancestors.)

														GW
From: folse@crs.cl.msu.edu (Mark Folse)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: What is Ireland's national anthem?  Is there one?
Date: 10 Sep 92 17:21:55 GMT
Organization: Michigan State University

2Sep8.223904.26061@Csli.Stanford.EDU>
Sender:
Reply-To: folse@crs.cl.msu.edu.UUCP (Mark Folse)
Followup-To:
Distribution:
Organization:




Keywords:
The Irish nat'l anthem was sung by the entire crowd at two pubs when we
were in Ireland last year: neither in the west.  One was the Castle nae Gael
(sp?) in Kilkenny and antoher in Dublin, the name of which for some reason
escapes.  It sure sounded
like everyone knew what they were singing, but how am I to really know?
From: merritt@macro.bu.edu (Sean Merritt)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Sheela-na-gig
Date: 10 Sep 92 20:47:39 GMT
Organization: Boston University Physics Department



On the new album DRY the band PJ Harvey(lead guitarist of the same name)
has a son titled "Sheela-na-gig". Is this gaelic? If so what does it
mean?

The line in the song goes "Sheela na gig, you exhibitionist!"


'hanx in advance.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
``...Richard Wagner standing at the gates of heaven."You have to let
me in."he says."I wrote Parsifal. It has to do with the Grail,Christ
,suffering,pity and healing. Right?" And they answer"Well we read it 
and it makes no sense." SLAM.'' -P.K. Dick from VALIS
--------------------------------------------------------------------

-- 
Sean J. Merritt		         |      Nietzsche che dice?
Dept of Physics Boston University| 	       Boh!	
merritt@budoe.bu.edu		 |
From: mike@fionn.lbl.gov (Michael Helm)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Scots or Picts (was Celtic alchoholism?)
Date: 13 Sep 1992 19:32:26 GMT
Organization: N.I.C.E.
Reply-To: mike@fionn.lbl.gov (Michael Helm)
NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.3.128.60

Graham Walker writes:
#>ago, but the Callanish standing stones were erected about 5000 years ago
 ...
#>of Space on PBS, have you notices that when Steve Hill plays (wait for
#>it) "Celtic space music" he often plays a piece called (approximately)
#>the Standing Stones of Callanish, which seems a little odd since the
#>people who erected those stone were not Celts. 

How do you, or how does anyone, know whether the erectors of Callanish
&al were, or were not, "Celts"?
From: obrien@rhone.imag.fr (Kevin O'Brien)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Just a question...
Date: 7 Sep 92 10:38:28 GMT
Distribution: soc
Organization: IMAG-TIM3/INPG, Grenoble, France

In article <RADE.92Sep5112500@freia.inf.tu-dresden.de> rade@freia.inf.tu-dresden.de (Matthias Radestock) writes:
>Maybe this is not the right place. But anyway, I'm transcribed to the Sinead
>O'Connor mailing list. For almost 3 month we've been desparetly looking for
>the lyrics to a song called 'Irish Ways'. Its first four lines are:
>	Once upon a time ther were
>	Irish Ways and Irish Laws
>	Villages of Irish blood
>	Waking to the morning
>Unfortunatly not all lines are that easy to understand, but as it is an Irish
>Traditional Song I hope that amongst the readers of this group is somebody
>who can post me the complete lyrics or at least give me a hint where to find it
>
>

The following is taken from one of Christy Moore's songbooks (I'm not
sure which as I only have a copy of certain pages).

Irish Ways And Irish Laws

One night after a (Moving) Hearts gig in the Baggot Inn, Dublin, John
Gibbs, the author of the song sent up an empty Major (brand of
cigarette) packet with this song written on the back of it. .....

Once upon a time there was
Irish ways and Irish laws
Villages of Irish blood
Waking to the morning
Waking to the morning

Then the Vikings came around
Turned us up and turned us down
Started building boats and towns
They tried to change our living
They tried to change our living

Cromwell and his soldiers came
Started centuries of shame
But they could not make us turn
We are a river flowing
We are a river flowing

Again, again the soldiers came
Burnt our houses, stole our grain
Shot the farmers in their fields
Working for a living
Working for a living

Eight hundred years we have been down
The secret of the water sound
Has kept the spirit of a man
Above the pain descending
Above the pain descending

Today the struggle carries on
I wonder will I live so long
To see the gates being opened up
To a people and their freedom
A people and their freedom

End of Quote

I didn't know Sinead O Connor sang this song. Is it recorded?

Kevin.


Kevin O'BRIEN 
Lab TIM3/IMAG INPG 
46 av F. Viallet, 38031 Grenoble Cedex - FRANCE 
Tel (+33) 76.57.45.00 ext 4763
From: v102qqq5@ubvmsc.cc.buffalo.edu (HIGH PRIESTESS)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Rhiannon
Date: 9 Sep 92 15:26:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41


 Anyone who has information about a coven of witches in Wales called the 
DAUGHTERS/SISTERS OF THE MOON please send info.
                                       High Priestess
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic