HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: cdt@sw.stratus.com (C. D. Tavares)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting,soc.motss
Subject: Re: [UPI] "Queer Nation Milwaukee to boycott United Way"
Date: 28 Aug 92 22:24:46 GMT
Followup-To: rec.scouting
Organization: Stratus Computer, Inc.

In article <jce.715012808@sycamore.cs.scarolina.edu>, jce@cs.scarolina.edu (James C. Evans) writes:
> Now you and I may find
> that discrimination ridiculous or even offensive, but that is the nature
> of civil rights--to protect people who are doing unpopular things.
> I simply don't know
> enough about the strength of BSA's government connections, or about
> recent case law on the subject, to comment on the issue of whether
> BSA's actions are government actions for purposes of applicability of
> the Bill of Rights.  In any event,
> it doesn't strengthen an argument to minimize or
> reject someone else's civil rights when claiming your own.

There are those of us who don't demand that everything that is
undesirable be made illegal.  The other side of this is that we also 
don't believe that everything that is legal is necessarily desirable.

Few people here maintain that BSA does not have the RIGHT to set
arbitrary membership requirements as a private organization.  But
many of us feel that the requirements they have set fall somewhere
in the range between regrettable and unconscionable.  Many of us are
also disgusted with BSA's duplicity in certifying to UW and BofA that
they do not discriminate in precisely the ways that they DO discriminate.

My view of what "Boy Scouts" means includes honesty and good citizenship.  
Excluding boys for questionable reasons tarnished this vision, but did
not destroy it.  Knowledge that the BSA president outright LIED in 
correspondence with BofA damaged it severely.  Gays and atheists indeed --
what kind of role model is THIS MAN being to my son?
--

cdt@rocket.sw.stratus.com   --If you believe that I speak for my company,
OR cdt@vos.stratus.com        write today for my special Investors' Packet...
Xref: sparky rec.scouting:2685 alt.discrimination:4046 alt.atheism:16194 alt.politics.homosexuality:5596
From: kadie@herodotus.cs.uiuc.edu (Carl M. Kadie)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting,alt.discrimination,alt.atheism,alt.politics.homosexuality
Subject: Re: BofA and UW can now support discrimination against blacks and Jews
Date: 30 Aug 92 16:10:59 GMT
Article-I.D.: m.1992Aug30.161059.22106
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept. of Comp. Sci., Urbana, IL

rlk@underprize.think.com (Robert Krawitz) writes:

[...]
>Well, to be perfectly fair I find it hard to blame the Scouts for
>accepting the money, as long as they're being up front about what their
>policies are.
[...]

I question how up front they have been. When Bank of America asked
them point blank if they excluded gay boys, their reply was apparently
so vague that B of A thought the answer was no.

In most communities it seems that UW seems to think that the BSA
doesn't exclude athiest and gay boys. Given the unpopularity of
athiests and gays, the popularity of the BSA, the overlap between UW
boards and BSA councils, and incidents of BSA groups promoting
boycotts against those who stop funding it, BSA/UW's misunderstandings
are very convenient.

- Carl
--
Carl Kadie -- kadie@cs.uiuc.edu -- University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Newsgroups: rec.scouting,alt.discrimination,chi.general,alt.atheism,alt.politics.homosexuality
From: lfoard@Turing.ORG (Lawrence C. Foard)
Subject: Re: BofA and UW can now support discrimination against blacks and Jews
Organization: The Turing Project, Charlottesville Virginia.
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 20:14:06 GMT

I'm curious how atheism is being defined here. I'm an atheist in the sense
that I don't believe in a "human" god. However I see the universe as being
a "being" in a very loose sense of the word, I could honestly say that I
believe in a higher power. However I don't believe in this power being
outside of the universe, nor do I believe it is omnipotent nor even
conscious (atleast not in the way we would recognize).
-- 
>>Unix/C Contract worker available 5 years C/unix work experience<<  ______
Available for Telecommuting/Travel and contracts on the T Line       \    /
in the Boston MA area. Send me e-mail for a copy of my Resume.        \  /
       -- VWIS 508-793-9568 (2400 baud), Linux support BBS.--          \/
Newsgroups: rec.scouting,alt.discrimination,chi.general,alt.atheism,alt.politics.homosexuality
From: kutem@turtle1.Berkeley.EDU (Jon Kutemeier)
Subject: Re: BofA and UW can now support discrimination against blacks and Jews
Reply-To: kutem@motcid.rtsg.mot.com
Organization: Motorola Inc., Cellular Infrastructure Group
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 23:20:53 GMT

In article <mccalley.715556935@lead16>, mccalley@rtsg.mot.com (Phil McCalley) writes:
|> On the issue of whether or not it is learned, it seems to me that it must
|> be.  Surely if it was genetic, it would have deselected itself along time
|> ago.  It would be some trick for them to reproduce.  Unfortunately for 
|> them, AIDS is deselecting them anyway.  Sad, but true.

What do you mean, "deselected" itself? Are you saying that gay couples
are unable to reproduce? If it is, and at this point I will assume that
is what you mean, then you are mistaken. Gay men and women can have children
if they wish. There is nothing wrong with their reproductive organs. A gay
couple can have a surrogate mother carry a baby for them, just as well as
a lesbian couple may have one partner or another carry a baby to term. Also,
don't forget the men and women who are "closeted", and maybe married, 
can have children as well.

And I hate to tell you, but AIDS doesn't discriminate in this world. It will
"deselect" you just as fast as it would someone who is gay. Sad, but true.


-- 
Jon Kutemeier_________________________________________________________________
----------------Software Engineer               /XX\/XX\  phone:(708) 632-3033
Motorola Inc.   Radio Telephone Systems Group  ///\XX/\\\ fax:  (708) 632-4430
1501 W. Shure Drive, Arlington Heights, IL 60004    uucp: !uunet!motcid!kutemj
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: rlc1028@zeus.tamu.edu  
Subject: Re: Heredity of homosexuality
Followup-To: rec.scouting
Organization: Texas A&M Core of Cadets
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1992 19:07:00 GMT

In article <78584@ut-emx.uucp>, zeus@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Mark Gansle) writes...

|I think what Jeff was saying was that a gene for homosexuality must
|necessarily be evolutionarily disadvantageous.  Women and men who had no
|desire to have sex with members of the opposite sex would be unable to
|bear children and so unable to pass the gene (or genes) for
|homosexuality on to offspring.

	The gene (if it exists) may be passed as a recessive one,
by an heterosexual parent.

	Furthermore, in past times, a lesbian woman might well be put
in the position of having children regardless of what gender she really
likes.



|And therein lies the difference between racism and discrimination
|against homosexuals.  One is proven to be hereditary and so cannot be
|changed and is not a subject for ridicule.  The other seems very likely
|to be a personal choice, and like all personal choices, is subject to judgment.

	Not really.  Racism is quite similar to hating someone for what
religion they are.  Religion is a choice, even more so than sexuality
can ever be said to be.  

	And, one's sexual orientation is not a choice.  Only one's
lifestyle is a choice.  You go to UT.  Surely you must be aware of this
by now.

DCD

rlc1028 @ Zeus.tamu.edu

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

      Moses quoted God as saying, "I your Lord am a jealous god."
      Jealousy is a manifestation of the trait of selfishness and
      the sin of coveteousness.  Discuss.
       ______________________
      |   ______    ______   |
      |__|   ___|__|___   |__|                 
        __   \        /__    __ 
        /\    \      /  |\  /|  
       /__\    \    /   | \/ |  
      /    \    \  /    |    |  
     --    --   |\/|   --    --
             ___|  |___
            |__________|
From: clee@doc.bmd.trw.com
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Jamboree-on-the-Air Request
Date: 3 Sep 92 18:45:21 GMT
Article-I.D.: doc.1992Sep3.114521.333

Jamgoree-on-the-Air

In the last issue of Scouting, there is a blurb on the 35th Janboree-on-the-Air
scheduled for Oct. 17-18.  My questions are: 1) Does the Scout Office in
Irving, Texas have an E-mail address where I can request information, or 2)
Has any body else on the net have the information as to what are the
frequencies that will be in use, and costs for certificates/patches?  Just
wanted some info, from those that know.  Thanks.

Cory  KB7MAC
Xref: sparky rec.scouting:2762 alt.discrimination:4085 chi.general:935 alt.atheism:16369 alt.politics.homosexuality:5638
Newsgroups: rec.scouting,alt.discrimination,chi.general,alt.atheism,alt.politics.homosexuality
Subject: Re: BofA and UW can now support discrimination against blacks and Jews
From: bobhays@spss.com (Bob Hays)
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 16:01:07 GMT
 <1992Aug29.145536.3961@cbnewsl.cb.att.com> <+vhntkg@lynx.unm.edu> <hill.715369256@galena12>
Distribution: usa
Organization: SPSS, Inc.

In article <hill.715369256@galena12>, hill@rtsg.mot.com (Karen Hill) writes:
> anthropo@carina.unm.edu (Dominick V. Zurlo) writes:
> > 3). Again, stop being ethnocentric.  You may consider it immoral for an
> >individual to sleep around, but many cultures around the world encourage it.
> >Just because you do not prescribe to it does not make it immoral.  Just not
> >within your beliefs.  So, gay or straight, doesn't matter in this instance.
> 
> So what we have here, is that anything is ok (moral, whatever) as long as
> someone believes it is and prescribes to that kind of behavior or belief?
> 
> So that must mean that there are no longer any absolutes. Nothing is absolutely
> right and nothing is absolutely wrong because someone, somewhere believes it
> is ok.
> 
> What would happen to society under this premise?

"A good truth lasts five years." - Henrik Ibsen, "An Enemy of the
People"

Perhaps we should restate and retrench a little here....  There are
absolutes - the statement you have made above that the only
requirement is for someone to agree with a behavior is not correct.
We can now begin having a "silly" philosophic debate about the reasons
for society.  Perhaps we should adopt some concept that "society
exists to allow its members to exist and hopefully florish."  In this
case, there are some restrictions perhaps (I'd suggest starting with
murder being dis-allowed) and can continue from there.  Does sleeping
around contribute to the demise of society?  That is perhaps a more
pertinent question.  However, it is likely that sleeping around does
not but that behaviors like drug abuse (note that I did not say drug
use here:-) and theft may indeed inhibit and actually decrease the
member's purposes.

I'd suggest starting with some Locke and perhaps a few Utilitarian
authors.  Then we could discuss how Existentialism plays into the
"game" and perhaps even talk a little about benevolent despotism.
However, overall, I think the goal of our little corner of the world
(the US) is to provide as open a society as possible to provide as
much growth as possible for as many people as possible while keeping
interactions of the people within some limits (these limits being
based mostly on economic and physical rules for competition).

Have fun (and I hope everyone flames on:-) - Bob

-- 
===============================================================================
The opinions expressed above are those of Bob Hays and not SPSS, Inc.
 bobhays@spss.com  Phone: (312) 329-3529 | "I'm hovering like a fly, waiting
                   Fax:   (312) 329-3657 |  for a windshield on a freeway" -PG
Newsgroups: rec.scouting,alt.discrimination,chi.general,alt.atheism,alt.politics.homosexuality
From: StarWatcher@uiuc.edu (StarWatcher)
Subject: Re: BofA and UW can now support discrimination against blacks and Jews
Organization: UIUC Actuarial Science Program
Reply-To: StarWatcher@uiuc.edu
Keywords: significant words from a document used as an index to content
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1992 19:32:35 GMT
X-Posted-From: sumter.cso.uiuc.edu
X-Posted-Through: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

achenbac@epcot.spdc.ti.com (Jeff Achenbach) writes:
: yorton@rtsg.mot.com writes:

: >I see no difference if they're openly gay or closeted, they're still the
: >same person.  It isn't clear to me how all of a sudden they become
: >poor role models if you learn they're gay.

: Sexual orientation is important to many people, right or wrong. 

And therein lies a problem: what people do on their own time should be of
no concern to others, unless others will be adversely affected by those
actions.  Since when did simply being around someone who is not strictly
heterosexual become harmful to others?  (Please read further before hitting
that 'f' button....)

: Parents have the right/ obligation to control what images/behavior 
: their children are taught to believe is acceptable. If it is not 
: displayed it is not a model for anything. A gay person can be a 
: wonderful influence in many ways, not because
: or in spite of being gay, but simply because they may be a good person.

Exactly.  I personally think that it would be perfectly acceptable for BSA
to request that Scout Leaders not discuss their sexual preferences within
the context of BSA functions.  And (although I personally disagree with
the following idea,) BSA would not IMHO be doing anything wrong if they asked
adult leaders to refrain from discussing sex/sexuality with their charges.

Even though it may be within BSA's rights to do so, I consider their dismissing
gay or bi scout leaders reprehensible since it is discrimination based upon
a person's private life.

: However, that one "flaw" will be enough to make many folks not want him/her 
: being a role model for their children. I'm not saying it's right, fair, or 
: anything else, just reality. I'm defending the right of parents to determine 
: what is best for their children. 

Granted, I don't know all of the details about the situation, but isn't
BSA trying to determine what is best for its members, rather than leaving
that for their parents?

--
Michael Adams (aka StarWatcher)
+1 (217) 344-0709, +1 (217) 344-4857
StarWatcher@uiuc.edu (NeXT mail accepted)
wi.5467@wizvax.methuen.ma.us (anon mail)
FREE1217@UIUCVMD.bitnet (bitnet mail
From: st1lv@jane.uh.edu (McLeod, Stephen)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: BofA and UW can now support discrimination against blacks and Jews
Date: 4 Sep 92 18:46:00 GMT
Followup-To: rec.scouting
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Houston
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <10311@vice.ICO.TEK.COM>, bobb@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Robert Beauchaine) writes...
>In article <hill.715545655@galena12> hill@rtsg.mot.com (Karen Hill) writes:
>>
>>I'm not judging anyone. I'm saying that everyone should be treated with
>>justice and dignity based on their humanity and nothing else. 
>>
> 
>  Fine.  Than I presume you are in favor of homosexual troop
>  leaders, same-sex marriages, and gays in the military.  
> 
Same sex marraiges-- fine.
Gays in the military-- fine.
However, a male homosexual troop leader is as difficult for me as a male
heterosexual troop leader in charge of a girl scout troop and the same for
a lesbian in charge of my girl's brownie troop.
I don't think it is appropriate for the BSA to accept funds from the government
if it discriminates against homosexuals but I do feel it is my right of free
association to join my child in an organization that minimizes the risk of 
child abuse (i.e. same sex straight adult leaders).
---
Stephen McLeod        At least the potato chips are staying down...
The Eternal? Student
From: rickc@pogo.wv.tek.com (Rick Clements)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: What's the use in having this group???
Date: 31 Aug 92 17:16:21 GMT
Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Wilsonville,  OR.


In article <1992Aug31.120047.2881@bmerh85.bnr.ca> rcano@bnr.ca writes:
>I agree with Robert Czernkowski. The homosexual/athiest in the BSA issues are 
>of interest only in the USA. I'm interested in scouting when I read this group,

From the postings it's easy to see that it's not of interest to everyone here.

>one I have for soc.history. If the americans out there were to follow
>the line about 'a scout is courteous' they would create a new group
>rec.scouting.bsa for their discssions, and in the interim, ensure that
>their aritcles have a distribution of usa.

rec.scouting.bsa isn't needed.  The people who are telling us to build large
KILL files should be limiting their distribution to usa.  While those of us in
the USA still have to build KILL files, there is no point in sending these
messages around the world.

>On a scouting note. does anyone have a suggestion for a wide area game
>(other than capture the flag) suitable for senior cubs (age 9). Our
>fall camp is in a semi wooded area. 

Have you tried _Fun_Tested_Games_From_A_To_Z_?  It's published by Scouts
Canada.  I have a number of games that I have been posting on Fidonet.  I
will post an other message if I find something for you.
-- 
Rick Clements (RickC@pogo.WV.TEK.COM)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting,alt.discrimination,chi.general,alt.atheism,alt.politics.homosexuality
From: philipla@microsoft.com (Phil Lafornara)
Subject: Re: BofA and UW can now support discrimination against blacks and Jews
Date: 28 Aug 92 18:18:22 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corporation
Distribution: usa

In article <1992Aug26.133519.28979@sdc.com> kenk@sdc.com (Ken Konecki) writes:
>In article <1992Aug24.170749.6911@microsoft.com> philipla@microsoft.com (Phil Lafornara) writes:
>>However, for the BSA to accept money from the United Way, which was
>>designed to allow contributions to non-religious, non-discriminatory
>>organizations, is reprehensible.
>
>No it's not.  The United Way is free to do whatever it damn well pleases
>with its money, and the Boy Scouts are free to accept funds from whatever
>source it feels appropriate.  It is no more reprehensible than you
>accepting money from your employer.

    Incorrect.  The United Way accepts money from countless individuals,
and with a donation to the United Way, I expect that my money will
go to organizations that do not discriminate on the basis of race,
religion, sexual orientation, and several other categories.  If
the United Way is indeed giving money to these organizations, they
are guilty of fraud.
    As for the BSA, they are fully aware of the United Way's policy,
and they continue to accept the funds.  I guess that falls under
the "A Scout is honest" part, huh?

					-Phil

-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Phil Lafornara         				1 Microsoft Way         
philipla@microsoft.com				Redmond, WA 98052-6399 
Note:  Microsoft doesn't even _know_ that these are my opinions. So there.
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: pmoloney@maths.tcd.ie (Paul Moloney)
Subject: Re: What's the use in having this group???
Organization: Somewhere in the Twentieth Century
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 13:36:35 GMT

wjh0265@tamsun.tamu.edu (William Hobson) writes:

>Funny that Carl Kadie would be the first to reply to my post - He's #1 on my
>KILL file!!!

Not a very good KILL file you have there, is it?

P.
-- 
moorcockheathersiainbankshamandcornpizzapjorourkebluesbrothersspikeleepratchett
clive P a u l  M o l o n e y "Lines of light ranged in the nonspace of the  rem
james Trinity College,Dublin PMOLONEY%MATHS.TCD.IE@PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU mind." vr
brownbladerunnerorsonscottcardprincewatchmenkatebushbatmanthekillingjoketolkien
Xref: sparky rec.scouting:2718 alt.discrimination:4057 chi.general:910 alt.atheism:16260 alt.politics.homosexuality:5609
From: aap@wam.umd.edu (Alberto Adolfo Pinkas)
Subject: Re: BofA and UW can now support discrimination against blacks and Jews
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 19:04:19 GMT

In article <!xdnhs+@lynx.unm.edu> anthropo@carina.unm.edu (Dominick V. Zurlo) writes:
>>
> Except that Judaism is more than a religion, it is also a cuture, and there
>are many different sects and differences and communities.  And so it is with 
>the Lesbigay communities.  The argument is the same.  The difference is that 
>it's ok to discriminate against lesbigays n our culture, and it's not quite
>so ok to discriminate against Jews.  But it happens.  

We should look at why it is OK to discriminate against GLB and nit against
Jews. And that difference will show you why the argument is not the same.
Segregation is based on the view society has about some particular group.
Changing that view will change society and will result in the end of 
segregation or not. 
Judaism, as a culture is not seen in the same way as Homosexuality, as a 
culture. That is why the reaction of society about them cannot be compared.

>Discrimination on any
>basis is wrong, and nature or choice is not an excuse. Plain and simple. 
>Humanity for all, equality included.  

This is nice but impossible in practice. If we have conciusness of that,
we will be able to do a better job. Also, to end discrimination it is not
enough to go around saying "it is wrong, and that is it". We need to find
the reasons why there is discrimination, and then find how to change theM.

> But just as a question to stir the pot a bit, what would you then say 
>about a Hermaphrodite being a scout?  that's natural, and to change s/him
>by surgery would be unnatural?  Just a thought.

I will never be a scout, so I cannot answer it.


>WWW
>Dominick V. ZUrlo
>these are my opinions, and mine only.  There Mine Mine Mine, all Mine.
>>
>>

AAp
Newsgroups: rec.scouting,alt.discrimination
From: kadie@herodotus.cs.uiuc.edu (Carl M. Kadie)
Subject: Re: BofA and UW can now support discrimination against blacks and Jews
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept. of Comp. Sci., Urbana, IL
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 00:15:44 GMT

damon@umbc4.umbc.edu (Mr. Damon Kelly; ACS (RJE)) paraphrase I note
of mine as:

>[... the Suburban Chicago chapter of the United Way
> now gives cash to groups that have discriminatory hiring practices because
> many of the groups target a group of people with a common charactersitic.]
[...]

That is not exactly what I said. As far as I know, the United Way
antidiscrimination policies have never applied to hiring requirements
or volunteers. If the KKK wants to open a soup kitchen they are
eligible for United Way money as long as the kitchen is open to all in
need without regard to race, religion, etc.

The United Way of Suburban Chicago has removed even this requirement.
In suburban Chicago, the KKK could exclude black and Jewish people and
still be eligible if they say that this soup kitchen is set up
especially help white Christians.

- Carl
--
Carl Kadie -- kadie@cs.uiuc.edu -- University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Xref: sparky rec.scouting:2607 alt.discrimination:4005 alt.politics.homosexuality:5545