From: rdd@cactus.org (Robert Dorsett)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation,sci.aeronautics,news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: sci.aeronautics (long)
Date: 1 Sep 92 20:27:05 GMT
Followup-To: news.groups
Organization: Capital Area Central Texas UNIX Society, Austin, Tx

In article <4676.164.uupcb@ssr.com> dick.zeitlin%acc1bbs@ssr.com (Dick Zeitlin)  writes:
>I'm less concerned with redundant postings than with the extra delay
>inserted by the moderator, and the resultant reduction in spontaneity.
>There's already a big delay in the system, as a result of its
>distributed architecture and operating mode.  More delay, and filtering,
>will reduce that spontaneity.

Karl's on the Internet, and his work keeps him in close proximity to news.
There'd be at most a 24-hour propagation delay, I suspect.  That's not
significant: indeed, netiquette guidelines *suggest* that one sit on a 
post for at least 24 hours before posting, to let it "mature." :-)


>I'll still vote for "unmoderated" until such time as it's clearly
>counterproductive to avoid that step...

Here's a traffic-analysis I put together.  

The post is split into three parts: a statistical-summary of traffic;
an analysis of the traffic, considering also thematic issues; and a 
list of the actual message-threads, and how I've interpreted them.  This
was done in early June, and doesn't take into account the explosion of
traffic on rec.aviation/sci.aero shortly thereafter.

My exclusion of inappropriate/noisy posts is a bit Draconian; this is one
reason I'd prefer someone with more general interests (like Karl) actually
be the moderator--if I did it, it'd likely be a very boring group. :-)



Total traffic:                                               7845 messages

Total number of airline/airliner-related messages            520
% of total traffic                                           6.6

Total number of primary subjects:                            88
% of total traffic                                           1.04
% of airliner-related messages:                              16.92

Total number of follow-ups:                                  432
% of total traffic                                           5.51
% of airliner-related messages:                              83.07


Appropriate messages for low-noise tech group concept:       145
% of total                                                   1.85
% of total airliner traffic                                  27.88

Inappropriate for low-noise tech group concept:              153
% of total                                                   1.95
% of total airliner traffic                                  29.42

Noisy for low-noise tech group:                              222
% of total                                                   2.83
% of total airliner traffic                                  42.69


Method:

Geoff sent me a header-dump of all *Subject* fields from all messages in
his news spool.  This, in turn, was assessed for either "airliner" keyword-
content, by hand.  In some  cases, I augmented this "subject-keyword" 
selection by selecting topics that did not use obvious identifiers, but 
which I remember as involving airliners.

The total list of traffic does not include the "Fat guy on Southwest"
thread, in all its permutations.  If included, there would have been
approximately 45 additional posts.

The list only gives an idea of airliner traffic on rec.aviation.  It
does not take into account traffic on rec.travel.air, comp.risks, or
sci.aeronautics.  A lot of this traffic is higher-quality than that on
rec.aviation, surprisingly enough (IMHO).

Given a Subject: header, and my recollection of the thread in question, I
used a somewhat arbitrary method to indicate whether such a thread (or
percentage of same) would have ended up in a "low-noise" airliners
newsgroup; in effect, I "played moderator."  For rejected messages, I
indicated whether a post would likely be considered *completely*
inappropriate (such as the question on  transporting dogs, which should
go to rec.travel.air), and how much of a subsequent thread is "noise" (such 
as the 28 people who replied to the gentleman's query about Alaska Airlines' 
tail logo :-)).

In the number-crunching, I took the position that informal/chatty/low-signal
posts should be given lower ranking, and "technical" or informative posts a 
higher ranking.


My analysis:

The airliner traffic is rather sporadic.  Crashes tend to generate a
lot of traffic, whether concerned with the specific incident or not:
they get people to think about the subject-matter.  The bulk of traffic
occurred between January and March.

There is much more basis for an airliners newsgroup than I had
suspected, if traffic is the primary consideration.  However, I feel it
would be an unacceptably noisy newsgroup, regardless of whether it
exists on rec.aviation or sci.aeronautics. A moderated status for the
group is called for.

The recommendation of moderation is based upon *content*, rather than
volume, considerations.  If even only one  message a month gets posted,
it shouldn't "waste" peoples' time; a mostly-dormant group, with "quality
control," will likely encourage a better signal/noise ratio (but less
traffic).

Will the additional traffic from the other newsgroups be a positive
factor?  I'm impressed by the amount of interest in airliners in
rec.travel.air  (although I've only been reading it for about two
months, since being pointed there by Karl Swartz's informal RFD in
April); in many ways, it's "better" than rec.aviation. But it's still 
pretty noisy.  Relevant posts on sci.aeronautics are few and far  
between (but generally high-signal).  And  comp.risks will *probably*
tend to continue soaking up its particular type of airliner-risks posts, no 
matter what we do.

So, yes, there is likely more traffic lurking out there than this
600-odd-post sample.


In summary:

If it is created, it should be moderated, and I would tend to favor it 
having a home as a sub-group of sci.aero (which I originally proposed as 
a back-door for airliner discussions; the group name, I suspect, has com-
pletely hidden that potential).

On the issue of moderation, Karl Swartz, who has contributed a lot of
high-quality traffic over the past couple of years, has volunteered to
be a moderator of either a sci or rec airliners group.  I feel he would
do a good job.  He's indicated his intent to allow "free flow" as much
as possible, and only "clamp down" when the noise level gets too high.
He's also expressed a belief that a moderator should try to "guide" 
discussion in a group.

If anyone would like to verify my stats, or offer alternative
classifications, Geoff's original header-file is available for
anonymous ftp on rascal.ics.utexas.edu (in misc/av/
re-organization-folder/subject-list). The complete list of derived
headers (follow-ups as well as original posts, which include article
numbers) will be online in a couple of days.  Be forewarned: it's quite
tedious (took me about eight hours, with good tools).




The data:

The first column is the "parent" name of a post or thread.
The "Total" column is the total number of posts in a thread.

The "Inappropriate" and "Noise" columns are subjective impressions of
whether a post should go to an "airliners" newsgroup and how much of
a post thread ends up as "noise," even if the subject material IS
appropriate.



                                                                     #
                                                                     I
                                                                     N
                                                                     A
                                                                     P    #
                                                           T    #    P    N
                                                           O    K    R    O
                                                           T    E    O    I
                                                           A    P    P    S
                                                           L    T    E    Y
                                                           -    -    -    -

45 Minutes Over Russia at the Controls of a YAK-40         3    3    0    0
360 turn on final by commuter airliner                     8    3    0    8
707 crash australia                                        1    1    0    0
727 glides 120 miles from 7 miles up...                   13    2    0    11
737 crash in Colorado Springs                              8    3    0    5
747-400 Preflight :)                                       2    2    0    0
767 Wing Questions                                         3    3    0    0
A320 Crash                                                 2    0    2    0
A320 crashes; Turbine spool-up                             1    1    0    0
A320 news story                                            2    0    2    0
Adding Drama (Was Re: United 232 crash -- the TV show)     9    0    9    0
AIr Canada 767 at Gimli                                    7    0    7    0
Air Florida (Re: War Emergency Power)                      2    2    0    0
air transport of dogs                                      1    0    1    0
Airbus A320 Flight Control Problems                        9    4    0    5
Airbusses (Re: Zero Flap Take-off)                         2    0    0    2
Airliner doors (was: Kids & emergency exits)               3    0    0    3
Airliner performanc                                        7    3    0    4
Airliners fight over runway                                2    0    2    0
ALASKA AIRLINES = FUNNY FUNNY PILOTS                       1    0    1    0
Another A320 down?                                        15    0    7    8
ARINC FREQUENCIES                                          3    1    0    2
ATP & the log book??                                       4    0    4    0
Big Plane Pilots in Small Planes                           5    0    5    0
Boeing's last 707?                                        10    2    0    6
China Air 747-C Crash Info Sought                          3    3    0    0
Clippings on the A320                                      1    1    0    0
Cloud tops (was Re: United Airlines 232)                   3    0    3    0
Cockpit Resource Management/Crew Coordination              1    1    0    0
COMMERCIAL AIRLINE MEMORABILIA SHOW - DFW 4/4/92...        1    1    0    0
Commercial Plane Crashes                                   3    3    0    0
Crashes (Flaming the Media)                                1    0    1    0
"decals, not paint (was: LGA crash_"                       1    1    0    0
FBW legend (?) was Re: A320 Crash                          1    0    0    1
"Fifty ways to lose an aircraft (was Re: Juries, ...       7    3    0    4
Flight 405 crash info                                      6    3    0    3
Flying through volcanic ash.                               2    2    0    0
Further information on Strasbourg crash (forwarde...       1    1    0    0
Glasses in crashes; DC-10 electrically powered exits.      2    2    0    0
Glide fatios for jets                                     16    3    0    13
Help! question on ATP flight simulator.                    1    0    1    0
How different is the MD-11?                               13    3    0    10
Icing question (Re:LGA)                                    4    3    0    1
ID this Airline                                           29    0    2    27
JAL 747 Damage (WAS: Fifty ways to lose an aircraft)       1    1    0    0
Jet noise and cold air                                     6    0    1    5
Jet stream winds                                           5    2    0    3
Jets that lost all engines and survived                   10    0    4    6
"Juries, lawsuits, and UAL 232"                           18    5    9    4
LGA crash                                                 23    4    0    19
Listening to ATC on a commercial flight                   30    0    30   0
Litigaphobia (was Re: Listening to ATC on a comme...       4    0    4    0
Lots of crashes lately?                                    1    0    1    0
March 16 jet crash                                         3    3    0    0
MD-11 turning speed                                        6    3    0    3
MD-12 - Is it real or are they late for April Fools?       1    1    0    0
MD-90 UNDUCTED FAN                                        15    8    0    7
Miraculous SAS MD-80 crash landing                        28    6    0    22
More on Air Canada 767 at Gimli...                         1    0    0    1
"Pan Am, business failure"                                 1    0    1    0
Pointer to A320 flight mgmt sys description                1    1    0    0
post-crash in Sweden                                       2    1    0    1
Preflighting a 757?                                        1    1    0    0
Question about Transport ATC Clearances?                   1    0    1    0
Re: anti-prop bias [was: MD-90 UNDUCTED FAN]               7    0    0    7
Re: Clear Ice (was:Miraculous SAS MD-80 crash landing)     6    2    0    4
Re: DC-10 electrically powered exits.                      3    3    0    0
Re: DC-10 to 747 doorway                                   1    1    0    0
Re: Old 737-130 (was Re: Comet at Ohare)                   1    0    1    0
Re: Volcano Air 747                                        8    3    0    5
Re: Zero Flap Take-off                                     9    9    0    0
Riding Up Front On American                               11    2    9    0
"Riyadh disaster (was: Juries, lawsuits, and UAL 2...     12    4    0    8
"Row 13, (was Re: LGA crash)"                              1    0    0    1
Rumanian Airlines Emergency Instructions (humor)           1    0    1    0
Seeking 727-200 hi/low buffet margin data                  1    1    0    0
Seeking info on airliner incident                          1    1    0    0
So you wanna fly in a DC8                                  1    1    0    0
Sterile Cockpit (was Re: Riding Up Front On American)      1    1    0    0
Thrust output + book review (Re: 727 Glides 120 ...        4    4    0    0
UAL 232 & jumping before impact                            1    0    0    2
UAL 232                                                    1    1    0    0
UAL 232 lawsuit begins today                              39    11  18   10
United 585 Crash; 1 Year Later                             4    2    0    2
United Airlines 232 crash at Sioux City -- the TV show    25    0   25    0
Wanted Airline Patches                                     1    0    1    0
You don't get if you don't ask                             3    1    0    2
Zero Flap Takeoff on F-100                                 2    2    0    0
Newsgroups: rec.aviation