From: ratner@cs.columbia.edu (Michael Ratner)
Subject: Re: Can white men jump?
Organization: Columbia University Department of Computer Science
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 13:31:53 GMT

In article <IGOR.92Oct14000857@krishna.cs.columbia.edu> igor@cs.columbia.edu (Igor Pankevich) writes:
>In article <Bw2nGG.EnG@cs.columbia.edu> ratner@cs.columbia.edu (Michael Ratner) writes:
>.........[stuff deleted]........
>
>   >   >
>   >   >"Chosen people" is _primarily_ an ethnic/racial issue. You are Jewish in
>   >   >teh firs place according to your birth, and only then - according to
>   >   >your beliefs. You can become Jewish being of any race, but you can't
>   >   >give up your "Jewishhood" once you are born that way. Then, again,
>   >   >read the Tora: the G-d promised Abraham to have his _decendants_
>   >   >"Chosen People", and only later He stated the formal procedure for the
>   >   >Goim to become a part of a Jewish house. That is one of the reasons
>   >
>   >>   Sorry, Igor, that is not true.  First of all there are no "Goim who
>   >>  become a part of a Jewish house."  A jewish soul can be born among the
>   >                                      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>   >>  non-Jews and then return to formal "Jewishness."  Yes, it is sometimes
>   >   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>   >Well, this, strictly speaking, is the question of whether or not one
>   >accepts the idea of reincarnation, and not everybody does. One might
>
>   But I know you do ! :-)
>
>   >argue that the phrase (in Russian translation of the Tora - sorry, I
>   >don't read Hebrew) "da istrebits'a dusha ta is naroda svoego",
>   >implying the severest punishment one can get (worse than being killed
>   >by people, - being killed by the G-d Himself, meaning - permanently,
>   >forever) means that that soul can never be born again. And that would
>
>   What you are referring to is called "karet" and, yes, it means that
>   the  soul is removed from the Jewish people.
>
>   >imply that, once Jewish, a soul can only be reborn amongst Jews.
>   >Then again, there _are_ laws stated in teh Deuteronomy about how the
>   >ousider, a _non-Jew_ can _become_ a Jew! It doesn't say that the house
>   >should accept this person because this person is in fact a Jew, just
>   >born among the goim!
>
>>  Because what I said is part of the Oral Tradition, and based on
>>  Rabbinical commantaries to written Torah.
>
>Then, again, not all the rabbis accept all the Rabinical commentaries :-)
>And only a few, compared to the total number of rabbins, have studied
>the subject well enough to have an opinion, or to write a commentary.
>And you didn't answer the point I made, anyway! I am talking about the
>law which tells how to deal with converts, and that law does not say
>that converts are really Jews, just born among teh goim! The
>commentary you are talking about is much younger, in fact, there is a
>theory with some documents to support it, that says that the Zohar was
>written in Spain in, I think, XV century, or so, and that it is far
>from being as ancient as it proclaims to be. If you want, I'll show
>you the book where I read it. Called Zohar, BTW.

I am well aware of some scientists' (like Gershom Sholem) claim that
Zohar was written by Moshe de-Leon (who first published it) and not by
Shimon Bar-Iohai (RASHBI) and his son Eleazar to whom it is usually  
attributed.  I don't agree with those scientists but that is not the
point.  Whether Zohar was disclosed in the 2-d century of the C.E. or
in the XIV century is not important, what is important is that it is a
pretty much established fact (please, correct me if I am wrong) that
Zohar represents the esoteric part of the Oral Tradition.

Let me quote your initial argument so that we wouldn't forget what we
are discussing... :-)

>   >   >give up your "Jewishhood" once you are born that way. Then, again,
>   >   >read the Tora: the G-d promised Abraham to have his _decendants_
>   >   >"Chosen People", and only later He stated the formal procedure for the
>   >   >Goim to become a part of a Jewish house. That is one of the

I am quoting from "Becoming a Jew" by Rabbi Maurice Lamm:
"In Jewish tradition, Abraham is every convert's "father" and,
according to Jewish law, the convert is referred to in official
matters, such as marriage and divorce, as the child of "Abraham, our
father."  That is the sense of the question that a twelfth-century
convert put to Maimonides: "Am I permitted to recite the phrase "God
of our fathers" in my prayers, since it is an obvious untruth ?"
Maimonides answered, in a florid and eloquent declaration, that all
Jews -- born Jews and Jews by choice -- are partners in the covenant
with God and spiritually Abraham's children."


>   >>  hard to distinguish between such a Jewish soul and a non-Jew who is
>   >>  for some reason attracted to Judaism.  That's why it is EXTREMELY hard
>   >>  to convert according to Orthodox rules -- they are afraid to make a
>   >>  truly disastrous mistake of considering a non-Jew to be a "real" Jew.
>   >>  Also, a "ger" (convert) has always been considered to be included in
>   >>  the covenant of Abraham. In fact, when "ger" is called to read the
>   >>  weekly chapter of Torah he is called as "<someone> ben Abraham" or son
>   >>  of Abraham.
>   >
>   >Then, again, I wonder: how it is possible to know for sure that the
>   >person posesses a "real" Jewish soul for Orthodox Jews? Do they just
>   >feel convinced after a person was attending the local sinagogue for
>   >a sufficient period of time, or something? And what is that terrible
>   >disaster Orthodox Jews are afraid of, do you think?
>
>>  Well, just try to put aside your sarcasm for a moment and imagine the
>>  responsibility that is laid on members of the "beit-din" (court of
>>  three Rabbis) when they decide whether to accept this person as a Jew ?
>>  Jews have a myriad of duties that they, and not non-Jews, have to
>>  perform.  Imagine a non-Jew saying a blessing at the holiday table !
>>  All the guests will have broken the law that night, because it's a law
>>  to join the blessing, and blessing recited by a non-Jew just does not
>>  count as something that Jews can join (I am talking about a specific
>>  holiday table blessing here).
>>  The worst scenario: a convert is a woman and her children cannot be real
>>  Jews if she is not one.
>
>	Same thing: how is a convert not a Jew? It is according to the
>way Tora puts it...

Yes, convert is a Jew.  I confess that I probably tried to put the
Kabbalistic explanation of conversion ahead of the common
interpretation.  Since all my further elaborations  would probably
be "biased" towards esoteric interpretation of the subject, I'll stop
imposing my views as if they were the only possible truth.

>I just don't see why nobody else jumps in...
>
>--Igor
>

Maybe because nobody else is really interested in the subject ?

							-- Mike


-- 
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			|  Michael B. Ratner  |
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