From: ata@hfsi.uucp (John Ata - FSO)
Subject: Re: Soul
Organization: HFS, Inc., McLean VA
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1992 17:26:21 GMT

In article <1992Oct7.223721.18301@netcom.com> payner@netcom.com (Rich Payne) writes:
>>
>>Rich, I see a difference between free will (the freedom to choose
>>the way I wish to behave) and reaping the consequence of the
>>choice I made.  
>
>The difference is when the consequences are supernatural in origin
>and a result of a godly decision. I made no such decisions, how then
>can I be held responsible for them? Responsibility and authority need
>to be equally matched, or one cannot be responsible, wether or not
>one is held responsible.  

I guess that we must have different definitions of what free will
is.  You seem to think that free will is the ability to succeed in
whatever I attempt to do.  I maintain, however, that free will is
the ability for myself to choose the course of action I intend to
do.  That is, I always have a choice of whether to do good or
evil, and there is no one controlling my choice.  Now I may not
succeed in doing evil or good, but that doesn't change the act.
Take a person plotting to kill their friend.  Whether or not they
actually succeed is immaterial, but they are free to choose to
ignore the impulse of violence that they might have, or to plan a
murder. 

>
>>                                                    He could have
>>*made* Pharoh let the Israelites go their way, and spared everyone
>>the 10 plagues.  But he didn't.  Yes, I see God intervening but I
>>guess I don't see this intervention as being contrary to our free
>>will.
>
>Why all these "could"s? When we have a topic dealing with what -is-
>in the bible, you refuse to talk about it, and get theoretical. I do
>not understand this. There are an infinite number of "coulds", all
>irrelevant to the issue.

Because these "could's" are examples of violation of the definition I
was using of free will, whereas your examples do not.

>So man is incapable of doing anything good "but by the grace of god"?
>If this is the case, noone -deserves- to go to heaven, we just have
>gods favorites (think of the teachers pet). 

I would phrase it that it would be very hard for someone to live an
entire life of substained goodness without the grace of God, given
our human nature.  You're right, of course, in that no one merits heaven
by themselves, but from God's gift to us in our Redemption by His
Son.  However, I do not believe that *anyone* misses out on heaven
"by mistake".  God, being the perfect Judge that He is will take *ALL*
factors into consideration, unlike us who are incapable of doing so.

>>>It seems to me that if god did this in answer to -your- prayer, then
>>>his(her, its???) free will has been infringed upon. If it was a request
>>>by the person with the problem, then it would not. 
>>
>>Why?  He hasn't force His will on that person.  That person is still free
>>to continue to steal.
>
>How can god make things 'clearer' expect by changing -something-? If this
>was done at your request, then that person had no choice in the change.

Changing something doesn't alter anybody's will by itself.  The
change that I'm talking about is the removal of obstacles, but
that in itself does not guarantee that the person will choose
good.  If you had a desire to read but had a hard time seeing the
page then that obstacle might hamper you from carying out your
desire.  But if I have you a pair of glasses, then the obstacle
goes away and you act upon your desire.  I have not infringed upon
your free will by giving you glasses, have I?  You still could
freely choose to watch TV instead of reading with those new
glasses I've given you...

>>>>they knew that the only reason they won a particular game was
>>>>because God bent the physical rules for them or made the opposing
>>>>team play suboptimally, then where is the merit in winning the
>>>>game?  I can see a player asking God to help them play to the best
>>>>of their ability at the time, however...
>>>
>>>Then why should anybody pray for anything? 
>>
>>I guess I don't follow you, what do you mean?
>
>If god does anything, anything at all, than the game was not won or
>lost by personal merit. Doing your best is a personal thing, either
>you do it, or you do not. If god helps, it ain't -your- best, whatever
>it might be.

As I stated above, I just don't see it that way...

> 
>
>payner@netcom.com
-- 
John G. Ata - Technical Consultant | Internet:  ata@hfsi.com
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