HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: carroll@bugs.cis.udel.edu (Mark C. Carroll)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: New Jersey Kashrut Laws Declared Unconstitutional
Date: 29 Jul 92 15:28:34 GMT
Organization: University of Delaware, Newark

In article <1992Jul28.175725.148@njitgw.njit.edu> dic5340@hertz.njit.edu (David Charlap) writes:
>In article <1992Jul23.205544.8631@cbnewsl.cb.att.com> stank@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (Stan Krieger) writes:
>>The NJ Supreme Court, ruling on a case involving the butcher I
>>go to, voted 4-3 that the NJ kashrut laws violate the separation
>>of church and state.
>....
>>While I don't know the details, the issues were over points that
>>various Rabbis will give various opinions on; the court case was
>>whether the state could enforce a specific set of Rabbinical opinions.
>
>This is a bad miscarriage of Justice.  The Rabbis are not dictating
>law.  The law simply states that products labeled as Kosher must
>actually be Kosher.  No crossing of church/state here.  The Rabbi is
>an expert witness who knows the laws of Kashrut.  Certainly, the court
>doen't think that a lawyer with no knowledge of judaism is more
>qualified than a Rabbi to clearly define what the laws of Kashrut are.

As I understand it, the reasoning behind this was that the ordinary
fraud laws are more than adequate for dealing with false kashrut
labelling. By making specific legislation that deal with enforcing
religious laws, they are violating the seperation of church and state,
by interfering in the internal affairs of a religious group. (To begin
with, how does the law decide if a product labelled as kosher is
actually kosher? By asking a Rabbi. But which Rabbi? If an Orthodox,
then the law may be stating that Conservative hechshers are in
violation of Kashrut... if Conservative, then the law is stating that
the Orthodox are unnecessarily strict. It's better to leave it in the
realm of fraud... )

	<MC>
-- 
|| Mark Craig Carroll: <MC>     || "I'm not dumb, 
|| Univ of Delaware, Dept of CIS||  I just have a command of thoroughly 
|| Grad Student/Labstaff Hacker ||  useless information."
|| carroll@udel.edu             || 	-Calvin
Organization: Doctoral student, History, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 11:27:13 -0400 
From: Etan Shalom Diamond <ed16+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Israeli Olympians

Hey--does anyone have a list of the Israeli participants in the Olympics
this year?  What sports are they in?  I heard that they have a chance in
yachting and wrestling.  Is this true??

------
Etan Diamond
Dept. of History
Carnegie Mellon University
ed16@andrew.cmu.edu

Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: ward@sun18.vlsi.waterloo.edu (Paul Ward)
Subject: Re: 5% bugs in ketchup!
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 13:14:31 GMT

 
> Thus a pot of soup with even a single
> whole bug in it is treif

This isn't, by any chance, the origin of the "Waiter, there's a fly in
my soup" jokes, is it?

Paul
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: hayim@locus.com (Hayim Hendeles)
Subject: Re: abortion for Noachides
Organization: Locus Computing Corporation, Los Angeles, California
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 19:30:46 GMT

In article <2289@israel.nysernet.org> warren@nysernet.org writes:
>Yesterday, I read a news story about how the US Customs confiscated
>RU486 pills (a French pill that induces abortions).  Anyone care to
>speculate if use of this pill might be halacially preferable to other
>methods?  Would its use be subject to any penalty at all?  To tell
>you the truth, I don't recall if killing a living person by poison is
>a capital crime for either Jews or Bnei Noach, but in this case (I
>think), the fetus isn't being poisoned, the mother's body is being
>made to reject the fetus.  Perhaps this is sufficiently indirect that
>it would not be subject to any penalty?
>-- 
>/|/-\/-\       The entire hall		Jerusalem
> |__/__/_/     is a very bitter gauze pad.
> |warren@      But the chef
>/ nysernet.org is concerned.

Wasn't their a case recently (I believe in San Francisco) where
a fetus died due to the Mother's actions (e.g. drugs and the like),
and the court convicted her of (second-degree ?) murder?

It's an interesting question, if in Jewish Law, this pill might
be considered murder, and if so, direct or indirect. Nonetheless,
even if it is not murder, you still have a bunch of other technical
problems (cf. Yevamos 12b)

Also, in Jewish Law, there is a major distinction between the inability
to convict someone vs. the action itself being permitted.
From: saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (samuel.saal)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Turbo-Orthodox (was Re: society ...)
Date: 24 Jul 92 17:13:24 GMT
Organization: NetNews Readers Anonymous

In article <1992Jul24.160311.8186@umbc3.umbc.edu>
shimoff@umbc4.umbc.edu (Eliot Shimoff) writes:

>How about virtual (not necessarily virtuous) Jews; we _look_ frum, but ...

>Cache-ing Jews (the one's who switch to daf yomi during layning of Shabbos).

>Or the "lifnei meshurat ha-din-nikkim," who run a 486,  but with 
> a math coprocessor?

>Da'as Torah versus MSDOS (or, in Israel, Emet Da'at)?

Why limit this fine (both meanings :-) gradation to Orthodoxy?  When I was
in college, the Hillel House had a poster (I believe created by the
Director, Rabbi Jim Diamond) that spoke of 57 Varieties of Judaism.  Among
the more memorable:

Cardiac Judaism: I am a Jew in my _heart_.
Gastronomic Judaism: I don't observe anything, let alone the laws of
	Kashruth, but I could _never_ eat pork.

and so on.
-- 
Sam Saal      homxb!saal OR saal@homxb.att.com
	Vayiftach HaShem et Peah Ha`Aton
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: faigin@aero.org (Daniel P. Faigin)
Subject: Re: Ending O-C-R Wars
Organization: The Aerospace Corporation, El Segundo, CA
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 20:20:24 GMT

On Mon, 27 Jul 1992 18:11:43 GMT, shimoff@umbc4.umbc.edu (Eliot Shimoff) said: 

> Daniel Faigin (just an example, but an able and articulate
> proponent of Reform Judaism) practices Reform Judaism; I assume that he
> sees some inadequacies in Orthodoxy.

Actually, I see no inadequacies in Orthodoxy. If you hold with their set of
axioms, then their practice is laudable. I have difficulty believing in the
Torah as written by the hand of G-d, although I'm willing to accept some sort
of inspiration. Ditto, moreso, for the Talmud. Therefore, I hold with the
Reform point of view, but do not denigrate others for theirs. That is why I
tend to post mostly statements from the movement. My goal is not to convert
others, rather to correct misstatements of what Reform's positions are.

Daniel
--
[W]:The Aerospace Corp. M1/055 * POB 92957 * LA, CA 90009-2957 * 310/336-8228
[Email]:faigin@aerospace.aero.org              [Vmail]:310/336-5454 Box#13149
	  "You mean on top of everything else, this ship is rigged?"
	     King Ferdinand, of Spain to Columbus (Stan Freberg)
From: weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Anti-Orthodoxy (was Re: O-C-R debate)
Date: 28 Jul 92 21:41:38 GMT
Reply-To: weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener)
Organization: The Wistar Institute of Anatomy and Biology
In-reply-to: hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin)

In article <55316@mentor.cc.purdue.edu>, hrubin@pop (Herman Rubin) writes:
>They do not say that the Orthodox are wrong to believe as they do.

>They do say that the Orthodox are wrong in insisting that all others
>believe as the Orthodox do.

In particular, for believing in this particular O belief.
-- 
-Matthew P Wiener (weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu)
From: olga@csiatl.Gwinnett.COM (olga from the volga)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Why I gave up on my People (was Re: Another Holocaust)
Date: 31 Jul 92 01:43:24 GMT

madhaus@netcom.com (Maddi Hausmann) writes:

 
> My hope for you is that someday you will be capable of joining
> the human community as well as the Jewish one.  But until more of
> you start doing so, it's clear there isn't much of a place for
> me in your community.  I prefer one of support for all rather than
> attacking outsiders.  Be aware that your actions contribute to
> the departure of others who have made the same decision I did.  If you don't
> care about the rest of the world, at least care enough to stop your
> own community from dying off.  Seriously, haven't you asked yourself
> why so many American Jews leave the community, intermarry, convert,
> what-have-you?  I really believe that this despicable attitude
> contributes to it.

I believe the writer is correct on this one.





olga@csiatl.gwinnett
YOW!
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (samuel.saal)
Subject: Re: Anti-Orthodoxy (was Re: O-C-R debate)
Organization: NetNews Readers Anonymous
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 12:20:57 GMT

In article <1992Jul30.042915.10187@midway.uchicago.edu>
rivk@midway.uchicago.edu writes:

>In article <9207282134.AA28097@ptms_dev.sbi.com>
<gertler@ptms_dev.sbi.com (User - Don Gertler)> writes:


>>not transmitted as directly.  They feel that one is not obligated to
>>observe (all) the dictates of the system as it was handed down through
>>the generations.

>Yes and no, at least from what I was taught. (I've been told by people
>like Mr. Faigin that my congregation's branch of Reform is not all that
>typical, so I have to keep putting the caveats in.) We feel as strongly
                                                        ^^^^
>as you do that Torah is directly G-d's laws and must be followed absolutely.
>We not only think it's unnecessary, however, to follow "the dictates of
>the system as it was handed down through the generations", we feel it is
                                                               ^^^^
>actively *wrong*, as it involves omission of what we consider the correct
>and necessary interpretations of existing, absolute laws. Call it a form
>of fundamentalism if you will; it's probably a more accurate term than
>true Reform. 

On what do you base this feeling other than emotion?  What does it say
about your earlier claim of adhering to a logical system?

Or is this going to be another post that requires more apoloigies for the
way it was worded?
-- 
Sam Saal      homxb!saal OR saal@homxb.att.com
	Vayiftach HaShem et Peah Ha`Aton
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: er@iscp.Bellcore.COM (Elie Rosenfeld)
Subject: Re: _A Stranger Among Us_
Reply-To: er@iscp.Bellcore.COM (Elie Rosenfeld)
Organization: Bell Communications Research (Bellcore)
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 92 16:20:29 GMT

In article <14aoiuINNcjd@agate.berkeley.edu>, rice@enterprise.Berkeley.EDU (Daniel S. Rice) writes:
|> 	My advice to readers of this group is to ignore the lukewarm
|> reviews and to see this movie.

I don't know about the movie itself, but someone really blew it in market
research.  They released it on a Friday, right when the 3 weeks started!  So
a lot of us won't get to see it until August 10th. 
-- 
Elie Rosenfeld      |  "Ronald Reagan??  The ACTOR??
Bellcore            |   Then who's *Vice* President - Jerry Lewis?!"
Piscataway, N.J.    |  "Marty, he's in a '46 Ford, we're in a Delorean;
(908) 699-8800      |   he'd rip through us like we were tinfoil!"
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: levine@symcom.math.uiuc.edu (Lenore Levine)
Subject: Cultural Relativism (Reply to Sutin)
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 18:06:25 GMT

sutin@ra.ucsc.edu (Brian Sutin) writes:

>In article <Brt4A8.Gq3@news.cso.uiuc.edu> levine@symcom.math.uiuc.edu (Lenore Levine) writes:
>>sutin@ra.ucsc.edu (Brian Sutin) writes:
>>
>>>->In article <14k5hgINNe7c@darkstar.UCSC.EDU> sutin@helios.ucsc.edu (Brian Sutin) writes:
>>
>>>Why are cannibal beliefs wrong for a cannibal?  Obviously they are wrong
>>>for a Jew, but to attampt to correct the cannibal would be proseletyzing.
>>
>>Are the abominations practiced in certain parts of North and East Africa
>>(I don't want to go into detail, just that they involve a mutilation of
>>women) OK just because certain cultures accept them?

>Are the abominations practiced in certain parts of the Middle East
>(I don't want to go into detail, just that they involve a mutilation of
>men) OK just because certain cultures accept them?  The Greeks thought
>that circumcision was pretty abominable, no?  How is your attitude
>different?

Being circumcised doesn't affect one's ability to enjoy a romantic
relationship...

(I feel very sorry for a culture in which a woman can't enjoy it
when her husband makes love to her.)

>>Was the job discrimination against Jews, blacks and women, practiced a
>>couple of generations ago, OK because the American culture accepted it
>>then?

>There is nothing wrong with a caste system from within the system.  As
>far as the bigot is concerned, the Jews blacks, and women are getting
>upity, and that is wat isn't OK.

>>>Brian Sutin				sutin@helios.ucsc.edu

So are you advocating some sort of social quietism? 

I agree that a person practicing their culture may not be evil, even
if they commit an evil practice. But isn't part of a commitment to
social justice questioning the current cultural practices? And working
to change them, if the conscience dictates?

Lenore Levine
levine@symcom.math.uiuc.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: stephenp@cix.compulink.co.uk (Stephen Phillips)
Subject: Re: 5% bugs in ketchup!
Cc: stephenp@cix.compulink.co.uk
Reply-To: stephenp@cix.compulink.co.uk
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 10:16:14 +0000


> +Message-ID   : <84242@netnews.upenn.edu>
> +Organization : University of Pennsylvania
> 
> In article <92205.131410CARIAN@auvm.american.edu> CARIAN@auvm.american.edu (RABBI C
HARLES ARIAN) writ
> es:
> >If the bugs are ground up it probably makes no difference to the
> >kashrut. Only whole bugs (briah) are forbidden.
> 
> This is slightly misleading.  "Briah" is one of the categories to which
> nullification by 1/60th does not apply.  Thus a pot of soup with even a single
> whole bug in it is treif, even if the pot is the size of a room.

But I think if you remove the bug then there is no longer any problem
(except on Shabbos when you have to remove some of the soup as well
so that it is not "Borer" [selecting])


> Once ground up, bugs are no longer "briah" but just ordinary treif stuff, so
> their (inadvertent) presence in quantities less than 1/60th may not make the
> overall food item treif.  Whether there is a problem depends on the details;
> presumably in the case of kosher-certified foods such as Heinz ketchup the
> details are such that the food is still kosher.
> 
> Under no circumstances is it okay to blithely add ground-up bugs to food and
> assume the result is still kosher.  (I presume Rabbi Arian knows this, but his
> wording could be taken to imply that it is okay.)

Are not bugs considered "Nosein Ta'am Lifgam" [give off a spoilt
taste]?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Stephen Phillips                Tel: 44-895-442141
Burch Phillips & Co.            Fax: 44-895-421231
63a Station Road
West Drayton
Middlesex
UB7 7LR
United Kingdom                  stephenp@compulink.co.uk

Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: david@bourbon.ee.tulane.edu (David Kaufmann)
Subject: Re: What is Jewish religion? (long...)
Nntp-Posting-Host-[nntpd-12674]: bourbon
Organization: E.E. Dept., Tulane University, New Orleans, LA
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 05:37:25 GMT

In article <FAIGIN.92Jul22093032@soldan.aero.org> faigin@aero.org (Daniel P. Faigin) writes:
>
>Thus, although Reform may eventually recommend more traditional practice,
>their *belief* in the source of that practice will always be different; it
>will be weakening of the lemmas.
>
As often as not, belief, like understanding, follows rather than
precedes, practice. Beliefs change and, hopefully, grow and therefore
are always in transition. A label that ossifies belief does a
disservice to the condition of belief and the individual.

Labels are at best meaningless.

David Kaufmann
INTERNET:	david@bourbon.ee.tulane.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: bz206@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Joseph Hack)
Subject: Re: Apology
Reply-To: bz206@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Joseph Hack)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 92 05:32:50 GMT


In a previous article, morgan7@carina.unm.edu (christopher c lewisair) says:

>Dear All,
>
>Please excuse my hasty and angry comments that were posted earlier. I had been
>up all night working and studying, and when I saw his comments I sort of
>snapped.

We noticed.

>my conclusions--all Scripture could be considered inaccurate
>my conclusions--all Scripture could be considered inaccurate
>my conclusions--all Scripture could be considered inaccurate
>my conclusions--all Scripture could be considered inaccurate
>my conclusions--all Scripture could be considered inaccurate
>my conclusions--all Scripture could be considered inaccurate

You get my vote for understatement of the year.


Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (Eric S. Perlman)
Subject: Re: NYT OpEd: Black Demagogues and Pseudo-Scholars
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 00:53:17 GMT

In article <CYTRON.92Jul29194755@helios.dfci.harvard.edu> cytron@helios.dfci.harvard.edu (Andrew Cytron) writes:
>
>Reproduced without permission.
>
>Black Demagogues and Pseudo-Scholars
>
>Henry Louis Gates Jr.
>
>
> [a long, *very* well written and thought provoking article]


Dr. Gates - Bravo!  Not being a subscriber to
soc.culture.african.american, though, I must wonder why this wasn't also
cross posted there - the phenomenon concerns both Blacks and Jews, and
has no solution without cooperation from both Blacks and Jews.



-- 
"How sad to see/A model of decorum and tranquillity/become like any other sport
A battleground for rival ideologies to slug it out with glee." -Tim Rice,"Chess"
     Eric S. Perlman 				 <perlman@qso.colorado.edu> 
  Center for Astrophysics and Space Astronomy, University of Colorado, Boulder
From: eggertj@moses.atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert x6127 g41)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Anti-Orthodoxy (was Re: O-C-R debate)
Date: 28 Jul 92 14:04:41 GMT
	<1992Jul26.214408.18665@umbc3.umbc.edu>
	<LERNER.92Jul26182033@division.cs.columbia.edu>
	<55213@mentor.cc.purdue.edu>
	<LERNER.92Jul27212841@division.cs.columbia.edu>
	<EGGERTJ.92Jul27231634@moses.atc.ll.mit.e
Reply-To: eggertj@atc.ll.mit.edu
Organization: MIT Lincoln Lab - Group 41

In article <LERNER.92Jul28003051@division.cs.columbia.edu> lerner@cs.columbia.edu (Michah Lerner) writes:
>   >> In article <EGGERTJ.92Jul27231634@moses.atc.ll.mit.edu> eggertj@moses.atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert x6127 g41) writes:
>   >> How many pieces of electronic equipment separate your typing from your
>   >> perceived audience?  And yet you expect us to make sense out of your
>   >> nonsense.  Perhaps you should visit us individually and explain your
>   >> views.  Please bring your notebook.
>
>       I see.  You deny large parts of the Torah because you did not receive
>       it "directly" (i.e. personally), even  though you  can  read it  with
>       your own eyes.   Then you accept the authenticity of carbon-14 dating
>       because  it is  "direct"  and therefore  is  (according to you) fully
>       believable.  This  is rather interesting, that a direct teaching with
>       documentation  from the Rabbis you doubt, but the less-direct machine
>       reading is more  believable because the  answer  is printed out  by a
>       machine.

I accept carbon-14 dating (with some reservations) because it is
repeatable, verifiable, and relatively independent of the observer.
Acceptance of the Torah (which, by the way, I do not deny in "large
parts") requires unproven belief of a singular, non-repeatable, and
unverifiable event, whose observers (the prophets) are unavailable for
interview; that event is its divine inspiration.

Acceptance of the Torah is either an article of faith (which I prefer)
or acceptance of religious authority (to which you appeal).  The
latter holds no persuasive value for me, for there are many world
religions which have their documentation and their teachers.
Acceptance of authority is thus insufficient grounds to accept the
Torah, for it begs the question of which authority to accept.  (Most
peope accept the authority dominant in the culture into which they are
born, leaving the acceptance of religious principle to mere genetic
chance.)  This leaves only simple faith as an acceptable justification
for belief in the Torah as a divine document.

>
>       As far as the ad-hominum attack, goodnight. 

Touche.  I apologize for any ad-hominem attack that you may have
perceived.  I did write those lines late in the evening, so I accept
your wishes of a good night.
--
=Jim  eggertj@atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert)
From: lerner@cs.columbia.edu (Michah Lerner)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Multiple Hechshers [was: Re: New Jersey Kashrut Laws Declared
Date: 29 Jul 92 16:56:51 GMT
	<1992Jul28.191648.25693@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca>
	<29JUL199210540758@vms.huji.ac.il> <55416@mentor.cc.purdue.edu>
Organization: Columbia University Department of Computer Science

>> rwerman:
>>>Traveling on an El Al plane can be wild.  The local hechsher is not
>>>good enough for some of the passengers; at least two London ones, a
>>>Swiss and Belgian one were requested by neighbors of mine.  And finally
>>>there was the fellow who refused all food and took out his home-made
>>>sandwich.  Yiden, gevald!
>>This seems to be at least against one of the examples in the Talmud.
  hrbin:
>>In this example, it is stated that if 9 out of 10 butcher shops are
>>kosher, that one can assume that a piece of meat found in the street
>>is kosher.  I suspect that the rabbis were not so distrustful.
  What is the "local butcher shop" when you are at 30,000 feet or in
  an airport which is international?  Indeed, it is proably not a
  Kosher butcher shop at all.  

  Sigh, but the sunrise from those planes is so beautiful, I wonder
  how it got that way.  
--
/M
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: faigin@aero.org (Daniel P. Faigin)
Subject: Re: society as the basis for religion (was Re: What is Jewish religion?)
Organization: The Aerospace Corporation, El Segundo, CA
	<FAIGIN.92Jul17134406@soldan.aerospace.aero.org>
	<1992Jul21.124547.16679@cbnewsl.cb.att.com>
	<62dm-4#.analyst@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 21:40:50 GMT

On 21 Jul 92 18:03:28 GMT, analyst@netcom.com (David Sternlight) said:

> A robot minyan? A minyan via modem?

Actually, this isn't so funny. A friend of mine, Leon Rogson
(71077.3312@compuserve.com) is a program manager at TRW. He also happens to be
a Reform Rabbi (who sends his kids to Orthodox day school, and pretty much
keeps Conservative at home. His daughter has rebelled -- how else do you
reform when Daddy's a Reform Rabbi -- by going Ultra-Orthodox!).

Anyway, Leon and I were talking one day about how I was dissatisfied by my
current synagogue. Jokingly, we said we should have an electronic synagogue.
Leon could be Rabbi, we could set up a machine, and whenever ten "members"
were logged-in, we'd have a minyan. 

I'm sure we could continue to have fun with the topic. Of course, I doubt we'd
ever do anything to make it real; nor would it be compatible with, for
example, Shabbat restrictions. It is an interesting notion, tho...

Daniel
--
[W]:The Aerospace Corp. M1/055 * POB 92957 * LA, CA 90009-2957 * 310/336-8228
[Email]:faigin@aerospace.aero.org              [Vmail]:310/336-5454 Box#13149
	  "You mean on top of everything else, this ship is rigged?"
	     King Ferdinand, of Spain to Columbus (Stan Freberg)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish