From: calvin@dinkum.mti.sgi.com (Calvin H. Vu)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.vietnamese
Subject: Re: Ngo-Dinh-Diem : another perspective
Date: 31 Dec 92 20:13:49 GMT
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc.  Mountain View, CA

In <1992Dec28.004043.23924@emr1.emr.ca> knguyen@emr1.emr.ca (Kim Nguyen) writes:

>Recognizing that many articles take excerpts from foreign books while
>ignoring Vietnamese documents. I took part of a published letter by 
>Ton-That-Binh sent to a newspaper recently. 
	I hope you take the perspective that Mr. TTB is not a bona-fide
   historians and these are only his opinions, not facts. 

>Tru*o*'c -da^y, hoa<.c do va cha.m quye^`n lo*.i hay -de^? che -da^.y su*.
>pha?n bo^.i vo*'i co^' T.T Die^.m, ngu*o*`i ta -da~ bo^i nho. che^' -do^. 
>na`y; cho ra<`ng -do' la` che^' -do^. tham nhu~ng, gia -din`h tri., -da`n
>a'p Pha^.t gia'o. To^i nghi~ ra<`ng ca^`n ne^n xe't la.i ca'c danh tu*` 
>chu.p mu~ na`y.
	I don't know why all pro-Diem people keep pounding on the "loyalty"
    issue as if Diem were the King of Vietnam and he owned the country.
    If Diem, after vowing to be loyal to King Ba?o -Da.i in order to
    be granted the Prime Minister job, overthrew Ba?o -Da.i only a 
    year later why do you put all the blame of disloyalty on the soldiers
    who had been in the Army long before Diem came back from overseas
    with US support to grab the power ?  Diem didn't give them their ranks
    in the army, they earned it by being in the army for many many years.

>Ngu*o*`i ta chi? tri'ch che^' -do^. o^ng Die^.m la` tham nhu~ng ! Tham
>nhu~ng la` ca<n bi.nh cu?a nha^n loa.i ! 
	Corruption is relatively minor in a budding democracy and Diem
    didn't fall because of corruption.  However, extortion by throwing
    innocent people in jail and robbing all the money they had in
    exchange for their release is pretty obnoxious.  Many people would 
    testify to this fact in the Central Vietnam under the rule of
    Diem's brother and many people have died because of this.

>So vo*'i tu*o*'ng Du*o*ng-va<n-Minh, chi? trong mo^.t na<m ca^`m
>quye^`n -da~ ta^.u mo^.t dinh thu*. kha' -do^` so^., qua' -da<'c tie^`n
>ta.i Pha'p. Co' ai phe^ pha'n tu*o*ng Minh tham nhu~ng kho^ng ?
	Because there was no proof.  He forgot to mention the fact that
    Minh had been in the Army for a long time and was one of the highest
    ranking generals before he took the coup.  He made two bad assumptions
    in order to give Minh a bad name:
   	1) That all the money Minh had was from corruption.
	2) That all the money Minh had was from the three month
    period between 1/11/63 and 30/1/64.
	It's pretty bad journalism to me.

>Ngu*o*`i ta phe^ pha'n che^' -do^. o^ng Die^.m la` che^' -do^. gia -di`nh
>tri. Ca'i -do' co' tha^.t. Tuy nhie^n xe't cho cu`ng, ca'i gia -di`nh tri.
>                                                           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>-do' vo*'i nhu*~ng ngu*o*`i co' ta`i -da~ la`m hu*ng thi.nh -da^'t nu*o*'c,
>pha?i to^'t -de.p ho*n ca'i Kho^ng gia -di`nh tri. cu?a ca'c che^' -do^. 
>                            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^                         
>sau -da^`y tham nhu~ng va` thie^'u ban? la~nh -da~ la`m ma^'t nu*o*'c ga^y
>ne^n cuo^.c tha'o cha.y ra nu*o*'c ngoa`i. 
	He admitted the favoritism under Diem but could not prove that the
    country got better under Diem (unless he used a small favored group as 
    representative of the whole country).  1/11/63 wasn't the only 
    coup/event that showed people's discontents and the army officers who 
    participated in the 1/11/63 coups were not all Buddhists.

>O^ng Nhu la` vi. co^' va^'n ta`i ba cu?a co^' TT Die^.m. 
>O^ng -da~ -du*a ra mo^.t chu? thuye^'t vu*~ng 
>cha<'c -do^'i -da^`u vo*'i chu? thuye^'t Ma'c xi't cu?a co^.ng sa?n : 
>Chu? thuye^'t Ca^`n Lao Nha^n vi. 
	If Ca^`n Lao Party was so great then why are people so ashamed to
    admit that they ever had association with that party ?  People still
    join and are proud to be VNQDD, Hoa Hao, Dai Viet, Cao Dai after their
    leaders have been murdered/executed.  What happened to Ca^`n Lao
    Party when there are no more power to be shared ?

>O^ng -da~ co' ke^' hoa.ch thie^'t la^.p
>nhu*~ng he^. tho^'ng a^'p chie^'n lu*o*.c, nhu*~ng khu tru` ma^.t vo*'i 
>ca'ch to^? chu*'c qui mo^, ca'ch kie^?m soa't te^' nhi. ngu*o*`i la. ma<.t
>(chu.p a?nh toa`n gia -di`nh va` treo trong nha`; so^' ngu*o*`i trong gia
>-di`nh thay -do^?i hay co' ngu*o*`i la. ma<.t kho^ng co' ngu*o*`i trong 
>a?nh la` bie^'t lie^`n).
	If Nhu knew geography and knew how people in the South lived he
    wouldn't have forced this ridiculous strategic hamlet copycat on the
    South Vietnamese and created acrimony in those people.  What do you
    think if you are forced to abandone your house to live in a 
    concentration hamlet under the absolute rule of corrupted officials 
    even when there was hardly any war (we're talking about the earlier 
    period 54-63 here) ? The land in the South is very fertile and people
    prefer to live on the land and not on handouts.

>Ke^' hoa.ch na`y -da~ vo^ hie^.u ho'a hoa.t -do^.ng xa^m nha^.p cu?a VC va`
>la`m tan ra~ ha. ta^`ng co* so*? cu?a chu'ng.
	Geez, I didn't know the VC have that much infrastructure in those 
    early days before the Ho Chi Minh trail was created.

>O^ng Nhu -da~ cho pha't -do^.ng nhu*~ng -do^.i chie^u ho^`i, ta^m ly' 
>chie^'n la`m hoang mang ha`ng ngu? VC, la`m chu'ng lo la<'ng khie^'p so*. 
>Su*. tha`nh co^ng na`y qua' su*'c ru*.c ro*?, ne^'u ta -de^? y' la` sau 
>hie^.p -di.nh Geneve, khi' the^' chie^'n tha<'ng cu?a VC -da~ bao tru`m
>mie^`n Nam vo*'i ha. ta^`ng co* so*? cu?a chu'ng tha^.t vu*~ng cha<c. Ne^'u
>tho*`i -do' My~ -do^`ng ke^' hoa.ch VN ho'a chie^'n tranh cu?a co^' TT Diem
>-de^` nghi. thi` cha<'c ti`nh hi`nh VN -da~ sa'ng su?a ra ta^.n mie^`n 
>Ba<'c.
	I only saw some petitions for US/Taiwanese military help from Diem
    and probably his preference that the US shouldn't interfere with his
    internal affairs (mainly, his dealings with the Buddhists and other
    religions/parties).  I ddin't know he had a plan for "VN ho'a chie^'n 
    tranh".

>Bo*?i the^', khi ho. tha^'y ba` Nhu pha't -do^.ng phong tra`o phu. nu*~ 
>lie^n -do*'i, thanh nu*~ co^.ng ho`a thi` ho. cho la` lo^' la<ng. Phu. nu*~
>ma` nha?y ra la`m vie^.c ngoa`i xa~ ho^.i, la`m chi'nh tri. ! Ho*n nu*~a
>nhu*~ng ngu*o*`i -da~ -du*o*.c ha` ho*i -da~ la^.t -do^? o^ng Diem la.i co'
>co* ho^.i du*.a theo -do' -de^? bo^i nho. ba` Nhu. Ne^'u nhi`n va`o ca'c
>hoa.t -do^.ng phu. nu*~ o*? ca'c nu*o*'c tie^n tie^'n ta.i A^u-My~, thi`
>hoa.t -do^.ng cu?a ba` Nhu la` bi`nh thu*o*`ng tho^i. Ba` Nhu -da~ co^'
>ba<'ng -du*a phu. nu*~ VN tie^'n le^n va` tru*o*?ng tha`nh so*'m. Ne^n khen
>ho*n la` che^...
	He didn't explain why Mrs. Nhu parents couldn't stand her either
    and had to resign from the post of Ambassador to the US.

>Ne^'u o^ng Diem ky` thi. Pha^.t giao thi` -do*`i na`o o^ng la.i giao 
>nhu*~ng chu*'c vu. then cho^'t (co' the^>? la^.t -do^? che^' -do^. 
>-du*o*.c) cho tu*o*'ng To^n Tha^'t -Di'nh va` -Da.i ta' -Do^~ Ma^.u. Nhu* 
>va^.y cuo^.c -da`n a'p Pha^.t gia'o pha?i do mo^.t nguye^n nha^n kha'c.
	Could we explain that because a majority of people in the army
    were Buddists so a minority of the high ranking ones could happen to 
    be Buddhists ?  Does he know which army officers supported Diem so he
    could gain and stay in power in the first place ?  It's not that
    Diem was born to rule Vietnam, you know.

>Tu*o*'ng Maxwell Taylor, co^' va^'n qua^n su*. -da<.c bie^.t cu?a TT 
>Kennedy, o^ng Cabot Lodge, vi. -da.i su*' co'kinhnghie^.m ve^` la^.t -do^?
>chi'nh phu? va` -Da.i ta' Conein,chuyen vie^n ca^'p cao ti`nh ba'o CIA -da~
>-du*o*.c chi? thi. la^.p ke^' hoa.ch la^.c -do^? o^ng Die^.m.
	Sure.  Those people even showed their instructions to Mr TTB.

>Nga`y 8-5-1963, sau khi ru*o*'c Pha^.t tu*` chu`a Die^.u -De^' -de^'n 
>chu`a Tu*` -Da`m ta.i Hue^', nhu~ng bie^?u ngu*~ cho^'ng -do^'i chi'nh phu?
>-du*o*.c giu*o*ng le^n. Ha`n nga`n ngu*o*`i ke'o -de^'n -da`i pha't thanh 
>Hue^', ho^ to kha^?u hie^.u bo^i nho. che^' -do^. Ngay lu'c -do' hai 
>kho^'i cha^'t no^? -da~ -du*o*.c -da<.t sa<?ng ga^`n bu*'c tu*o*`ng cu?a 
>-da`i pha't thanh no^? tung la`m 8 ngu*o*`i che^'t va` 14 ngu*o*`i bi. 
>thu*o*ng. Pha^.t tu8?pha^?n no^. tu*o*?ng ra<`ng ca?nh sa't -da~ ne'm 
>lu*.u -da.n de^? -da`n a'p. Ke^' hoa.ch -da~ tha`nh co^ng  ! Co' ngu*o*`i 
>thi` ba?o VC ga`i cha^'t no^? Co' ngu*o*`i thi` ba?o no' na<`m trong ke^' 
>hoa.ch cu?a o^ng ba.n -do^`ng minh. Du` ai ga`i cha^'t no^? -di nu*~a. 
>Ke^'t qua?va^~ co' 2 ke? thu? lo*.i : My~ va` VC.; va` 2 na.n nha^n : o^ng
>Diem va` Pha^.t tu*? la^m na.n.
	Sure.  I know CIA has a habit of planting remote-comtrol bombs
    at every street corner just in case these bombs are needed to create
    misunderstandings.  In this case, they pushed button number 192834
    to blow up the two bombs in front of the Radio Station in Hue when
    the Buddhists got there to protest the Order forbidding them to hang
    their religious flags.
	But, putting aside the fact that who planted those bombs in advance
    with the foresight that the Buddhist would gather there or who
    threw the two grenades, do any of the pro-Diem historians know what
    the Buddhists demand AFTER this incidence ?  Could you explain why
    Diem decided to have a curfew in order to raid all the pagodas and
    imprison the monks instead of satisfying these demands which the
    Buddhist representatives gave to Vice President Tho in the official
    reconciliatory meeting:
	1) Making reparations to the people who died in that incidence.
	2) Recognizing Buddhism as a religion just like Catholicism,
    with all the accorded privileges.
	3) Allowing Buddists to hang their flags.
	4) Stop using the army to surround the pagodas and harass the
    Buddist monks (in some places, even the electricity, water, and food
    supplies were cut off).

	Do you really those were unreasonable demands in an attempt to 
    overthrow the governemtn ?

>Cu*.u gia'm -do^'c CIA, William Colby, trong cuo^.c pho?ng va^'n cu?a 
>tua^`nba'o Express, -da~ tuye^ bo^' nhu* sau :
>A^'p chie^'n lu*o*.c cu?a o^ng ta (O^ Diem) ma` chu'ng to^i -da~ khai 
>trie^?n la` chi'nh sa'ch to^'t -de.p nha^'t. Chi'nh no' -da~ la`m ngu*o*`i
>da^n que^ tha^'y co' ly' do -de^? chie^'n -da^'u, co' tinh tha^`n -de^? 
>cho^'ng cu*. la.i ca'cco^.c ta^'n co^ng cu?a qua^n -di.ch va` ho. bie^'t 
>ra<`ng ho. -du*o*.c ye^?m tro*. ve^` ma<.t qua^n su*., kinh te^' va` 
>chi'nh tri..., to^i tinh ra<`ng ne^'u o^ng Diem co`n ta.i chu*'c thi` 
>chie^'n tranh -da~ co' mo^.t lo^'i thoa't kha'c. To^i tinh ra<`ng -da'ng 
>le~ chi'nh sa'ch a^'p chie^'n lu*o*.c -da~ co' the^? tha`nh co^ng..., 
>-da'ng le? pha?i tie^'p tu.c u?ng ho^. o^ng Diem.
	This is a biased testimony based on the fact that the speaker, Colby,
    is the main force/money supply behind this plan.  He couldn't say
    that he screwed up, could he ?

>Ngay ke? thu` cu?a co^' TT Diem la` o^ng Ho^`-chi'-Minh cu~ng pha?i co^ng 
>nha^.n :
>Du` sao o^ng Diem cu~ng la` mo^.t ngu*o*`i ye^u nu*o*'c, tuy ye^unu*o*'c 
>theo ca'ch cu?a o^ng a^'y.
	O.K. Now he believed the nice gentleman talk from HCM.

>Co^' TT Ngo-dinh-Diem pha?i la` ngu*o*`i la?nh -da.o ta`i ba ne^n mo*'i 
>-du*o.*.c -di'ch tha^n TT Eisenhower ra ta^.n phi tru*o*`ng Andrew -do'n
>tie^'p (1957). Pho' TT My~Johnson -da~ nhie^.t lie^.t ca ngo*.i TT Diem
>nhu* la`mo^.t vi. la~nh tu. A'-cha^u ngang ha`ng vo*'i thu? tu*o*'ng
>Churchill, ta`i ba no^?i tie^'ng the^' gio*'i.....
	Ahem, I didn't know what Diem did before 1957 besides overthrowing
    Bao DDai and using Duong Van Minh to eradicate the threat from
    the Binh Xuyen.

>Trong khi mo^.t -da'm -do^ng qua^n nha^n -dang -du*'ng chen la^'n chung 
>quanh chie^'c thie^'t va^.n xa M113 cho*? thi ha`i 2 o^ng Diem va` Nhu, 
>lu'c -do' khoa?ng 5 gio*` chie^`u nga`y 2-11-63, tu*o*'ng Minh to? ve? 
>so^'t ruo^.t, -di -di la.i la.i trong pho`ng ho.p, kho^nh the`m -de^? y'
>to*'i nhu*~ng chuye^.n ca'c tu*o*'ng -dang ba`n ba.c, ro^`i khu*.ng la.i
>o^ng ho?i :
>Ca'c *toi* co`n ca^`n gi` *moi* nu*~a kho^ng ? *Moi* -di -da'nh tennis 
>-da^y...
	Did he really go and play tennis or was it an excuse to go and
    make some alternate plan after Diem and Nhu were killed unexpectedly ?

>...Sa'ng nga`y 3-11-1963, tu*o*'ng Minh quye^'t -di.nh tri'ch 8 trie^.u
>va` ra li.nh cho mo^.t -do*n vi. Co^ng binh to*'i su*~a nha`, la`m co^?ng,
>xa^y da`n hoa lan, la^.p ho^` nuo^i ca'....

>Conclusion :

>Alas ! After Ngo's regime, Vietnam fell in hands of hooligans who just knew
>how to use guns and did not study engough to the level of governing a country. 
>These bastards did not have any good strategy to deal with a skillful 
>Ho-Chi-Minh. 
	Yeah, and the bastard Ngo Dinh Diem who put his oval picture 
    ON TOP OF the national flag and forced people to salute it every time 
    they went to see a movie.  At least after Diem, no 16-year old girls
    had to jump from the top of a 4-story building to the front of a
    group of UN observers in order to have the chance to tell her story.

>To the next generation : we came here in fear and should take this 
>opportunity to learn and travel to see everything with a patriotic eyes in
>order to make a plan for a better Vietnam. We won't come here not just to
>have a house of 400k but for studying harder than any body else. With that
>knowledge (politics, economy, sociology, sciences,...), in a future 
>Vietnam, we won't let any illiterate hooligans to bring down our country
>again. We should build a democratic society, not authoritarian one.
>                           
	Yes, if we could learn and use facts and not simply taking side 
based on the brainwashing done since childbirth.

- calvin
Newsgroups: soc.culture.vietnamese