HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jcmorris@mwunix.mitre.org (Joe Morris)
Subject: Re: CD ROM: Cheers and Jeers
Organization: The MITRE Corporation
Distribution: na
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 14:57:34 GMT

rick@sjsumcs.sjsu.edu (Richard Warner) writes:

 [discussion of CD-ROM as a program distribution medium]

>There are a couple of mid-ground solutions.  Distribute the developers
>kit on floppies, but give a rebate to folks who recycle them (send them
>back to MS).  

Will this really save the vendors money (regardless of whether any savings
are passed on)?  I suspect that the cost of handling the disks (stocking,
writing, labeling, packaging, etc.) exceeds the cost of the diskettes.
And don't forget the cost of returning the diskette to the vendor.

>              Put out updates as patch disks, like the CSD disks
>IBM uses for OS/2 (fewer diskettes).  

Long overdue.  There are some commercial patch programs on the market
(like .RTPATCH) which could also be used for this purpose as long as
the actual number of byte changes is relatively small.

>                                      Another solution is to use a 
>different mass storage medium, one that is more common in the developer
>community - tape drives (they need them to backup those monstrous disk
>drives).

That's fine, but *which* tape format should be used?  A lot of people have
recognized the advantages to using tape to back up their gigabyte disks,
but is it reasonable (at least at this time) to assume that any one format
can be declared to be the one-and-only one supported by Microsoft?

Joe Morris / MITRE
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
From: craigdo@microsoft.com (Craig Dowell)
Subject: Vacations (was Re: CW on windows shifting, "Feet of clay")
Date: 11 Aug 92 18:14:53 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corporation

In article <13963@auspex-gw.auspex.com> guy@Auspex.COM (Guy Harris) writes:

[lots of good stuff on the joys of porting to Unicode, deleted] 

>Note that Unicode wasn't invented by Microsoft; Apple, and some
>companies involved with that U-word operating system, were also on the
>Unicode committee, along with Microsoft.  Presumably, the people from
>those companies involved with that U-word operating system weren't there
>merely for their own amusement....

I thought that was exactly why people joined standards committees;  as a
way to get tax deductible vacations :-)

-- Craig

Xref: sparky comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy:1967 comp.os.os2.advocacy:4299
From: dic5340@hertz.njit.edu (David Charlap)
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: Re: Some more misconceptions regarding OS/2 and NT
Date: 20 Aug 92 18:29:48 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: New Jersey Institute of Technology, Newark, N.J.

In article <1992Aug19.192827.441@mksol.dseg.ti.com> mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539) writes:
>Microsoft has basically told the
>developers of the world that if they don't buy a CD-ROM like
>MIcorosoft wants that they can just go pound sand.

And they're not the first.  You don't hear about it here much, but
Apple developers have had to own CD-ROM players for some time now.  As
an Apple developer (part of your membership fee into the program) you
get shipped CD-ROMs every month (or is it quarter?) full of neat
shareware, PD, and internal utilities.  Along with updates of system
software (like the alpha of system 7, when it was shipped).  A
developer without a CD-ROM drive couldn't get these utilities any
other way.  Apple sold many CD-ROM players to developers that way.  Of
course, Apple gives their developers significant discounts on hardware
purchases, so it wasnt' THAT bad.

Note, that I don't endorse this behavior.  I just wanted to point out
that Apple has been mostly successful with it over the past three or
four years.
-- 
   |)  David Charlap           "I don't even represent myself
  /|_  dic5340@hertz.njit.edu   sometimes so NJIT is right out!.
 ((|,)
  ~|~  Hi! I am a .signature virus, copy me into your .signature file.
Xref: sparky comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy:1947 comp.os.os2.advocacy:4256
From: rick@sjsumcs.sjsu.edu (Richard Warner)
Subject: Re: CD-ROMs and CorelDraw!
Organization: San Jose State University - Math/CS Dept.
Distribution: na
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 16:48:02 GMT

margoli@watson.ibm.com (Larry Margolis) writes:

>In  <weinkam.714244767@sfu.ca>  weinkam@fraser.sfu.ca (James Lawrence Weinkam) writes:
>> >>What I don't like is the CD-ROM software you find in stores - they
>> >>typically want over $300 for one application - even ones that sell for
>> >>less money on floppy.  Corel Draw! is one example - the CD should cost
>> >>LESS than the floppy version, not more - it costs about $10 to press a
>> >>computer-grade CD, compared to the $0.50 per disk it costs to write HD
>> >>floppies.  This gouging is giving the CD-ROM market a very bad name.
>>
>> I thought that the disk only version of Corel Draw came on ten disks.

>The flyer on CorelDraw! 3.0 that I have says that every box comes with
>a bonus CD-ROM.  Is there actually a diskette-only version, or are people
>comparing the price of 3.0 and a previous version?  If the latter, then
>this argument is pointless.

Every package of CorelDraw 3.0 does include both.  The diskettes have 
the program and a very limited set of fonts and clip-art; the CD has
the software and something like 250 TrueType fonts and 10,000 clip art
images.  E.g., and incentive to read the CD, but not a necessity.

Corel has been quite active in pushing the envelope.  Their CD 'blockbuster'
package sold of lot of CD-ROM drives.  An exemplary move - package a good
CD-ROM drive with your software at a price comparable to either alone.

Two years ago I got a letter from Kenneth? Williams, President of 
Sierra On-line talking about their future directions.  They were trying
to put together a CD-ROM drive bundle with Kings Quest V at a <$400 price.
I never saw anything about this package since.  If more manufacturers
would do this, then CD-ROM drives might become de rigeur.

>Larry Margolis, MARGOLI@YKTVMV (Bitnet), margoli@watson.IBM.com (Internet)
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
From: timbol@netcom.com (Mike Timbol)
Subject: Re: Some more misconceptions regarding OS/2 and NT
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 92 07:43:02 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
Distribution: na

In article <1992Aug17.203142.18330@mksol.dseg.ti.com> mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539) writes:
>
>I've installed bigger things than NT from floppies.

Yeah, but do you consider it a good use of your time?

> Also from TAPE
>(which I think is a more reasonable choice, personally -- at least a
>tape is useful to me for backing things up when I'm not spending time
>reinstalling NT.

Tapes deteriorate *much* faster than CD-ROMs.  Also, I suspect they
are more expensive to produce and are a bit more fragile.  (How many
times has your CD player eaten one of your CDs?)

>Has anyone noticed how all the people making excuses for this policy
>are from Microsoft?

Actually, no, I hadn't noticed that :)

>Fred.McCall@dseg.ti.com - I don't speak for others and they don't speak for me.

- Mike
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
From: mcnally@wsl.dec.com (Mike McNally)
Subject: Re: Some more misconceptions regarding OS/2 and NT
Organization: DEC Palo Alto
Distribution: na
Date: 18 Aug 92 20:22:45 GMT

discar@nosc.mil (Joe Discar) writes:

>In article <1992Aug18.162641.13575@mksol.dseg.ti.com> mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539) writes:
>>This isn't an upgrade to a newer technology, and it is NOT cheaper for
>>me.  It might be much more convenient for YOU, but that's Microsoft's
>>problem, not mine.  I CANNOT WRITE TO A CD-ROM.  THEREFORE, THERE IS
>>NO REAL REASON TO BUY ONE EXCEPT FOR ARROGANT VENDORS WHO SEEM TO
>>THINK THEY CAN FORCE THEM ON PEOPLE.

>If you don't like the fact that some vendors choose to distribute their
>software in the cheapest way possible (for them), then don't buy it.
>Nobody's forcing you to.

I agree.  I personally am pleased as punch that Microsoft is pushing
CD-ROM technology, because it will drive the market and make production
of (read-only) collections of data much more lucrative.  I will be
very happy when there's a huge selection of on-line (yes, read-only) 
data available for purchase.

If you (Fred) don't want to play, I don't care.
--
==============y=o=u='=r=e===a=l=l===s=t=e=a=m=e=d===u=p===j=o=e================
   Mike +   Software +   Digital Equipment +   Western Software +      mcnally@
McNally +    Laborer +         Corporation +         Laboratory +   wsl.dec.com
===============================================================================
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
From: jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com (Jim Mann)
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: CD ROM Drives (Was: Re: Some more misconceptions regarding OS/2 and NT)
Date: 20 Aug 92 15:12:37 GMT
Reply-To: jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com
Distribution: na

In article <1992Aug18.162203.13289@mksol.dseg.ti.com>  
mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539) writes:
> And the only reason a lot of people will get 'these devices' is if
> they find themselves forced to because software manufacturers
> arrogantly assume that they should be able to set the user's  
hardware
> priorities.  Rather than spend the money for a CD-ROM, I would buy  
any
> of a number of other things first: a tape drive, a faster video  
card,
> another hard disk, etc.  All those things are quite useful to me.   
The
> only use I would have for a CD-ROM is to be able to load Windows/NT
> SDK.  I really don't want it that bad.  In fact, that requirement
> leaves me wanting it even less.  I'll stick to vendors who are  
trying
> to serve their user community rather than force their priorities on
> hardware purchases, thanks.

Given how big software products are becoming, I think vendors
are going to have no choice but to go to CD-ROM.  We've already
reached the point of needing 10-12 floppies to install a program.
This is silly.   By being able to put this on ONE CD-ROM, they
should be able to make installation much faster and easier
(which will pay for the CD-ROM drive right there for many users).

I'd also bet that within a year, Gateway and other clone dealers
will offer CD-ROM drives as real cheap add-ons, and within 2 years,
they'll be standard on all systems.

--
Jim Mann            
Stratus Computer   jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com  
Xref: sparky comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy:1914 comp.os.os2.advocacy:4182
From: dic5340@hertz.njit.edu (David Charlap)
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: Re: Some more misconceptions regarding OS/2 and NT
Date: 18 Aug 92 21:40:51 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: New Jersey Institute of Technology, Newark, N.J.

In article <1992Aug17.162636.19288@nosc.mil> discar@nosc.mil (Joe Discar) writes:
>True.  For a very expensive drive.  600mb of storage for $200 is not
>"very expensive."  A Net optical drive costs around $2500 for 300mb and
>*then* $250 for each 300mb media.  CD-ROM costs less than $5 per disk
>(depending on the software).  Heck, you can get the ENTIRE simtel library
>for only $20!

This is where the utility comes in - where you find cheap CD's.  $20
for the entire WSMR-SIMTEL20 archive, etc.  I like the idea of paying
less than $50 for 500MB of shareware/freeware.

What I don't like is the CD-ROM software you find in stores - they
typically want over $300 for one application - even ones that sell for
less money on floppy.  Corel Draw! is one example - the CD should cost
LESS than the floppy version, not more - it costs about $10 to press a
computer-grade CD, compared to the $0.50 per disk it costs to write HD
floppies.  This gouging is giving the CD-ROM market a very bad name.

Personally, when I find a CD-ROM player for under $300 that will play
my audio CD's as well (with or without software control) that works
with OS/2 2.0, I'll get it.  For now, no such player exists (the only
cheap ones don't play audio disks, and have no OS/2 drivers)

>CD-ROM will NEVER replace a good hard disk.  But remember this: hard disk
>technology is getting cheaper, and software is getting larger.  What 
>better installation medium is there than CD-ROM?  Tape?  CD-ROM is cheaper
>to reproduce--and the "failure/decay" rate is much lower (making the
>media more reliable for large amounts of data).

But the vendors charge more money for the CD's than they do for tapes
and diskettes.
-- 
   |)  David Charlap           "I don't even represent myself
  /|_  dic5340@hertz.njit.edu   sometimes so NJIT is right out!.
 ((|,)
  ~|~  Hi! I am a .signature virus, copy me into your .signature file.
From: mhuth@byron.u.washington.edu (Mark Huth)
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Some more misconceptions regarding OS/2 and NT
Date: 20 Aug 92 04:15:30 GMT
Article-I.D.: u.1992Aug20.041530.25135
Distribution: na
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle

>Yeah, CD-ROM is wonderful IF YOU HAPPEN TO HAVE ONE.  I don't need one
>for anything else, and can't see spending the money on one just so I
>can install a few picky pieces of software that don't come any other
>way and listen to music while I work (I already have a stereo system
>in the office with my machine).

Hey, Fred.  A thought occurs to me...if you spent the money you are spending
on this thread (rather the money I'd guess your company is spending)...on
a CD-Rom, you'd own a cd-rom and you could join many of us who have found how
useful cd-roms are for software development.   In short, I and others under-
stand your views about cd-roms and microsoft.  You don't need to keep 
browbeating us about it!  
>
>-- 
>"Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live
> in the real world."   -- Mary Shafer, NASA Ames Dryden
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Fred.McCall@dseg.ti.com - I don't speak for others and they don't speak for me.


-- 
Mark Huth                         * Is it too wild to want to get into 
Mhuth@u.washington.edu            * Space someday?
Compuserve 70346,563              *
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
From: potts@itl.itd.umich.edu (Paul Potts)
Subject: Re: Some more misconceptions regarding OS/2 and NT
Organization: Instructional Technology Laboratory, University of Michigan
Distribution: na
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 18:48:20 GMT

In article <1992Aug19.151306.22018@nosc.mil> discar@nosc.mil (Joe Discar) writes:
>.
>
>This is the clincher... and one of the reasons I don't jump for OS/2: device
>support.  My CD-ROM drive works fine under Windows because (as most people
>here will point out ad nauseum) it is built on top of DOS.  I suspect 
>that OS/2 will support my CD player in a DOS box--but I haven't tried it,
>having given up on OS/2 when it wouldn't run my network.

Don't bet on it. I wasn't able to get my CD-ROM drive to work in a DOS
session under OS/2. The scenario went something like this:

OS/2: OK, DOS is starting up, so run AUTOEXEC.BAT and CONFIG.SYS.

CONFIG.SYS: chug, chug, chug, install, install, install...

CD-ROM driver: Hello, system!  I'm a CD-ROM driver. What version of
DOS are you?

OS/2: Why, I'm not DOS, I'm OS/2 2.0!!!

CD-ROM driver: "Help!  Imposter!  Aaarrrggghhh!!! I can't run on *you*..."

And, of course, I was unable to use the SETVER command because OS/2 does not
support DOS 5.0 commands...


-- 
"It'sVerySad / toSeeTheAncientAndDistinguishedGameThatUsedToBe / aModelOf
DecorumAndTranquilityBecomeLikeAnyOtherSportABattlegroundForRivalIdeologies
toSlugItOutWithGlee." (from _Chess_). -potts@itl.itd.umich.edu-
Xref: sparky comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy:1959 comp.os.os2.advocacy:4277
From: rick@sjsumcs.sjsu.edu (Richard Warner)
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: Re: Some more misconceptions regarding OS/2 and NT
Date: 17 Aug 92 16:14:40 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: San Jose State University - Math/CS Dept.

petesk@microsoft.com (Pete Skelly) writes:

>>fred j mccall 575-3539 (mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com) wrote:
>>: Yeah, but seriously, how many computers come with disk drives?  Now
>>: count how many have CD-ROM as a 'standard' part of the setup.
>>: Frankly, I was just a bit hacked off at Sun when they came out with
>>: this policy of shipping everything on CD-ROM only, and that's for
>>: workstations that are just a bit higher dollar value than the typical
>>: Intel machine.  MS doing it is RIDICULOUS.
>>

>Actually, this brings up a thought.  How many computers were there with
>disk drives 10-15 years ago.  Most of them used casette tape (PC's).

BZZZZZZT!  Wrong answer.   Many machines had disk drives 10-15 years ago.
Closer to the 15 year end they were commonly 8" drives, then went to
the 5-1/4" about 12 years ago.  Only the real low-end systems, e.g. the
TRaSh-80, were primarily tape drive.  Apple (I), Apple II's, NorthStars
and the like commonly had disk drives.  That is why it was so stupid of
IBM to try to make the original PC a cassette-drive machine.  Sure the
disk drives were more expensive, but they were so much faster!  
(I worked in an R&D lab 14 years ago where our engineering 'workstation'
was a TRaSh-80 with cassette drive and 4K of RAM; we though we were in
heaven when it was upgraded to an Apple with Disk Drive and 16K!).


>(NOTE: use of PETE.EXE in previous sentence)

>It must have been really difficult for you to switch over to floppy disks
>from cassette.  The price difference was about equivalent to getting
>a CDROM.  The same can be said for Hard Drives.

>Would you have us still living in the world of cassette tapes for data
>storage, where load times were measured in minutes for even the smallest
>applications.

>People NOT upgrading to newer technologies is REDICULOUS, especially
>when it is cheaper in the long run.

>petesk@microsoft.com
>My Opinions...
Xref: sparky comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy:1944 comp.os.os2.advocacy:4249
From: dic5340@hertz.njit.edu (David Charlap)
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: Re: Some more misconceptions regarding OS/2 and NT
Date: 19 Aug 92 23:27:38 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: New Jersey Institute of Technology, Newark, N.J.

In article <weinkam.714244767@sfu.ca> weinkam@fraser.sfu.ca (James Lawrence Weinkam) writes:
>>>What I don't like is the CD-ROM software you find in stores - they
>>>typically want over $300 for one application - even ones that sell for
>>>less money on floppy.  Corel Draw! is one example - the CD should cost
>>>LESS than the floppy version, not more - it costs about $10 to press a
>>>computer-grade CD, compared to the $0.50 per disk it costs to write HD
>>>floppies.  This gouging is giving the CD-ROM market a very bad name.
>
>I thought that the disk only version of Corel Draw came on ten disks.
>It this is true, the cost of the disks would be $5, less than the cost 
>of the CD based on the prices you give.  Thus the disks version should
>be priced lower.

So, then the price difference should only be $5 - not the amount it is
(in some stores, over $100 difference).
-- 
   |)  David Charlap           "I don't even represent myself
  /|_  dic5340@hertz.njit.edu   sometimes so NJIT is right out!.
 ((|,)
  ~|~  Hi! I am a .signature virus, copy me into your .signature file.
From: jfreter@triton.unm.edu (The Myth)
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Disclaimer
Date: 14 Aug 92 22:51:21 GMT
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque

In article <1992Aug14.072550.25951@sequent.com> furballs@sequent.com (Paul Penrod) writes:
>Cut him some slack...
>
>The Government legal beagles force this innocuous piece of tripe
>onto the net to cover their legal backsides. Frankly it keeps them
>employed, and I would rather the Government keep lawyers employed
>than Apple...
>
>Correction, Shakepeare was right...
>

Exactly,  we should get rid of all practicing lawyers.  I can think of 
nothing better than a bunch of unemployed, homeless lawyers.  Afterall,
they're the ones that are ultimately responsible for much of the econ-
omic woes of the US and the world.
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
From: mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539)
Subject: Re: Some more misconceptions regarding OS/2 and NT
Organization: Texas Instruments Inc
Distribution: na
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 16:56:20 GMT

In <nf0mft+.timbol@netcom.com> timbol@netcom.com (Mike Timbol) writes:

>In article <1992Aug17.200236.17403@mksol.dseg.ti.com> mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539) writes:

>>[And NT can't take a full CD-ROM (660 MB), either, unless MS is
>>*GROSSLY* lying about how large a hard disk someone should have to
>>install it.  The only stuff it seems to make sense to me to have a
>>CD-ROM for is stuff that has like 500 MB of clip art.]

>NT doesn't take a full CD-ROM.  But what if it only takes half? (it
>doesn't, by the way).  How about a third?  Even if it only took up
>10% of the CD-ROM, wouldn't you rather have one CD-ROM than 40+ floppies?
>(Well, I guess *you* wouldn't, but I think many other people
>would...)

Well, IF I had a CD-ROM or IF I had some other reason for needing one
besides the ability to load some piece of software, then yes, I would
rather have a CD-ROM than 40 floppies.  However, given that I DON'T
have a CD-ROM drive and DON'T have any need for one for any other
purpose than the ability to load some piece of software, personally,
I'd rather have A MEDIUM THAT I CAN READ.  Failing that, I'd rather
have a TAPE (remember tapes?).  At least then I can use the tape drive
to back up my system.  How do you back up all that stuff you get off
the CD-ROM?  Just don't back it up at all and hope you can restore
from the CD-ROM (including any changes you may have made)?

>Also, a lot of other things can be put on a CD-ROM (not just clip art).
>On-line documentation, for instance.  Wouldn't you rather have 50+ MB
>of documentation on a CD-ROM instead of taking up a large chunk of
>your hard disk?

I'd rather have paper.  It's a lot easier to read and I find it easier
to find things than trying to go through some kind of hypertext reader
for online documentation.  Some of us actually like to read the
documentation before we start developing software.



-- 
"Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live
 in the real world."   -- Mary Shafer, NASA Ames Dryden
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred.McCall@dseg.ti.com - I don't speak for others and they don't speak for me.