HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: Tim.ONeill@english.utas.edu.au (Tim O'Neill)
Subject: Attila the Mongol? (Was Re: Arrow number Two ...
Organization: University of Tasmania, Australia
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 02:15:13 GMT

In article <1992Sep11.164044.5502@lmt.mn.org>, ciaran@county.lmt.mn.org (Ciaran Benson) writes:

>   Admittedly, there are many symbols which would be much more
> historically correct for the knights of Lithuania or the hordes
> of Mongol (Hail, Attila, who led our people to the promised
> land!), and I'm sure people use these frequently.

Er, Ciaran, Attila was a Hun. The Huns seem to have been a Turco-altic
people and therefore only distantly connected to the Mongolian tribes.
Sorry for the nit-pick, but Attila is one of my favourite dudes. Very
few people realise that his 'name' is actually a nickname given to him
by the Ostrogoths. It means 'daddy' ('Atta'- father with the diminuative
suffix -'ila' - little one). That alone makes you look at the guy in a 
whole new light.

Another point: I assume your reference to crusaders repressing pagans
concerns the Tuetonic Knights in Lithuania, Prussia, Samogithia etc.
While it's true the German crusaders did some pretty vile things, 
the guys they fought weren't exactly freaked out flower children of love
either. They liked to cook captured Knights in their armour, and even
before the Germans turned up they had a penchant for gruesome human
sacrifice. The SS liked to glorify the Teutonic Knights, are you 
glorifying the (equally nasty) Lithuanian pagans?

Tim O'Neill
Tasmanian Devil
From: gsouth@genome.wi.edu (Genome South user)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Arrow number Two ...
Date: 15 Sep 92 12:32:22 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Whitehead Institute for Biomedical Research


>    Tadhg
>    who is thinking of quitting this organization and joining one that has
>    something to do with the Middle Ages.

Are there others?

Ursula
jcmill@eagle.mit.edu
From: coppinge8817@iscsvax.uni.edu
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: RE: Re: Time period, E-MAIL fr. aryk
Date: 14 Sep 92 16:22:34 -0500
Organization: University of Northern Iowa


        aryk,
            my thanks for your reply.  this is the only way the vax here seems
to let me communicate with you, something about an illegal host on your end. 
My being new to this system it is probably an error made by myself. My intent  
with my previous posting about the Irish mercenaries was not to be a
mercenary from post middle ages but to give an expanded description on The
Dunkins who were, in fact, a clan of mercenaries which was given the boot from
Ireland.  I would like for any and all people who can help give the furthest
dates back leading to the middle ages about the Dunkins.  I want to submit a
name to the heralds soon, but I need dates for this name.  Regarding your query
about being one (a merc) myself I haven't decided yet, but it is a
consideration.
        Jason Coppinger

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: kevin@isi.COM (Keradwc an Cai)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Western Crown List (was Re: Inspiration)
Date: 9 Sep 92 17:29:25 GMT
Organization: The Internet

Arval wrote, responding to Hal's statement:

| > In the West, if you're a member and you're an authorized fighter, it
| > is almost a given that you fight in the Crown Lists. 
| 
| An interesting statement: So far as I know, your Crown Tourney lists have
| only recently topped 100 fighters.  That's certainly large by any kingdom's
| standards, but think about your statement: Are there really only 100
| fighters in the West Kingdom?  

Well, almost only 100.

Hal did specify 'almost a given'; he's just as aware as I am that many
exceptions exist (he listed a few example reasons), but the TREND is that
most fighters will, or will want to, could they get there, fight in
Crown Tourney.

Keradwc
 -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 | Keradwc an Cai     | One of those exceptions. |  In the Mists of the West |
 |--------------------|--------------------------|---------------------------|
 | Kevin Connery      | Quality must be designed |   Speaking FROM, not FOR: |
 |                    | into software; it cannot |   Integrated Systems, Inc |
 | kconnery@isi.com   | be patched on afterwards |           Santa Clara, CA |
 -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: samlb@optilink.UUCP (Sam Bassett)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: A thought about Rialto
Date: 4 Sep 92 16:45:53 GMT
Organization: Crusty old curmudgeon

In article <1992Sep3.212202.26775@athena.cas.vanderbilt.edu> cctimar@athena.cas.vanderbilt.edu (Charles) writes:
>My idea is to make the Rialto "slightly moderated," in that it could
>have subject-area moderators.

	I'm agin it -- too much work for som poor sod (the way that
Usenet works, there can really only be _one_ moderator), and it would cut
down on the free flow of ideas & opinions.
	Despite the recent rash of people flicking lit matches at each
other over the net here, I still prefer an open, unmoderated forum.


-- 
Sam'l Bassett -- System Administrator 	      (among other silly things)
Work: DSC/Optilink, 1310-C Redwood Wy, Petaluma CA 94954; 1-707-792-7253
Internet: samlb@optilink.com 		      UUCP: uunet!optilink!samlb
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Subject: Re: Sitting on the fence (was Re: Pentacles/Consorts)
Reply-To: whheydt@PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 21:45:09 GMT

In article <1992Sep15.190045.22026@watson.ibm.com> mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman) writes:
>Greetings from Arval!  Hal wrote:
>
>> So long as the SCA maintains it's not-for-profit status, I think it is
>> at least semi-public in nature.  If we want to be private, we should
>> change the tax status of the corporation.
>
>If you are talking about our legal position (as opposed to our moral
>position), and if you are suggesting that our not-for-profit status
>requires us to refrain from religious discrimination and the like, then you
>are manifestly incorrect: The Catholic Church is a not-for-profit
>organization, which discriminates against homosexuals and other religions.
>The Aryan Nation is a not-for-profit organization which discriminates
>against almost everybody.  Private organzations which accept money from the
>government in some capacities have been required to obey federal
>anti-discrimination laws (e.g. universities), but tax-exempt status does
>not imply such legal requirements.

I am quite aware of the way that various organizations behave.  I
think that the *ethical* thing to do is to decline tax-exempt status
if one wishes to act contrary to public policy--whether or not anyone
is going to enforce that policy on you, and even if it is *legal* to
accept such status.

I also consider that nearly *all* churches have placed themselves in
an ethically (and potentially legally) questionable position over
these issues.  Largely I feel this way because I don't think it is the
proper job of the IRS to decide what is or isn't a religion.  The only
two ways I can think of handling that job are 1) accept the word of
any person or organization that makes such a claim (this is manifestly
*not* done) or 2) treat churches the same as any other corporate
person (and this isn't done either).

In the mean time, I think that the SCAs not-for-profit status, while
useful is, under the ideals we are striving for, questionable.  We are
in the position of benefiting from the letter of the law while
(possibly) violating it's spirit.

	--Hal

        Hal Ravn, Province of the Mists, West Kingdom
        Wilson H. Heydt, Jr.,  Albany, CA 94706,  510/524-8321 (home)
-- 
Hal Heydt                    |    "Boycott Time-Warner"
Analyst, Pacific*Bell        |         --J. Danforth Quayle
510-823-5447                 |    "... kill all the lawyers."
whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM    |         --William Shakespeare
From: helm@jade.ucdavis.edu
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Sleep??
Date: 10 Sep 92 07:17:25 GMT
Reply-To: helm@jade.ucdavis.edu
Organization: Geology Department, University of California, Davis

Siobhan and other good gentles,

a pump fake is a feint where you "pump" the sword hand a little up and
out as if you were starting a head blow, and then if and when your
opponent's shield goes up, you time a real head blow to clock the
poor sod when his shield comes back down.  In the local neighborhood
of Beaconsgate, where Papa Houghton still shows up at Sunday afternoon
practice to teach sneaky tricks every now and then, this is known as
the Houghton fake #1.  Houghton #2 is a pump fake followed by a leg
shot.  Houghton #3 is a pump fake, followed by a fake to the leg (to
bring the shield down, and then you clock them in the head...

Regarding people who won't quiet down, even after you've asked them,
I would have seriously considered waking up Rolf ('da King) and aksing
him to shut them down.  He's the sort who will do this sort of thing
for his subjects.  <On the other hand, I do admit that I personally
would contemplate this sort of action since Rolf and I are old friends
and former next door neighbors; I might perhaps have an edge, I admit.>

On this same vein, Flieg is often up late, and will always help shut
people down when asked to help out.  Really, there are a lot of Kings
and Dukes who are sympathetic and helpful in the cause of keeping the 
late night noise down.  Constables can be quite helpful in this regard
also, and some of them are usually up at all hours.  Sometimes what it
takes is asking for help, after asking the late night types to pipe
down and they don't.  

Me?  I do two things.  I sleep with earplugs at events, and I also
sleep in the cab of my truck, both of which cut the noise appreciably.
I'm not the sort of person who takes well to losing my less-than-ugly
sleep.  (I also can't afford to buy a new tent, my old tent having
died quite spetacularly at Pennsic XX.  Besides, since I've taken to
sleeping in my truck, on the nice cushioned bench seat, I don't wake
up anymore with a sore back, which has been a real problem for me
since the auto accident I was in four years ago.  I was really sour
on all the camping events the West has until I discovered how 
comfortable my truck is...)

I must disagree with my friend Dur on this point, that if I wanted
peace and quiet I should have stayed home.  I would seriously content
that you can die from both too much partying and from lack of sleep...
;->

Twcs, who really does need her less-than-ugly sleep...
From: Tim@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Tim)
Sender: FredGate@ocitor.fidonet
From: PA142548@utkvm1.utk.edu (T. Archer)
Subject: Re: Inflammatory rhetoric (History v. dreams, period songs, consort gender)
Organization: University of Tennessee Division of Continuing Education
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 19:32:37 GMT

In article <1992Sep08.173129.36766@watson.ibm.com> mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman) writes:
>Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
>
>T. Archer offered:
>
>> Those who fail to goose-step to the turn of the rigid reproduction of
>> life in the Old Middle-Ages are persecuted. 
>
>I hope you were intentionally exaggerating, Archer.  

I am not.  I have seen filk-singers cat-called down at revel and turned away 
from bardic circles.

>It is the "authenticity police" myth, that the people
>interested in authentic re-creation are somehow going to "force out" people
>interested in a freer adaptation of medieval ideas.

It is not a myth, they are real.
>It simply isn't true.

Yes, it is.  You live, like myself, in a tolerant area.  Try wearing lace 
with butterflies to a Southdowns baronial court.  You can HEAR the sneering.
>

>The problem, I think, is that people across the spectrum are making a
>fundamental mistake: They are saying "The Society is..." when they really
>mean "What I like to do in the Society is..."  In fact, the Society is a
>very loosely defined, broad-based framework which has room for all these
>opinions.  No one is right or wrong, no approach is inherently better or
>worse.  They are different and they achieve different goals, and so they
>appeal to different people with different interests.  Different events are
>aimed at different interests.  No one is trying to drive out anyone else,
>and no one is persecuting anyone else.  If we would all resist the
>temptation to inflated rhetoric, we'd get on together much better.

I wish you were right, but you are not.  Here on the Rialto bridge, alone, I 
have heard such comments as "filk has no place in the Society,"  "'Wars' 
are not period wars, but period tourneys, and since combat archery is not 
period for tournaments, we should have no combat archer in our wars," and 
my personal favorite, "if you're not going to play the game right, don't 
play it at all."
[snip]  

>Gentles all, net news offers an insidious temptation to inflammatory
>rhetoric.  It's not surprising: We see it all around us in the election,
>where all parties fill the media with exaggerations, distortions, and
>downright lies.  It is much easier to denigrate the opposition than to
>logically counter his arguments, and it is easier to forget to treat them
>as honorable friends when they never get closer than the computer screen.
>Resist the temptation, my friends.  If you disagree, take the time to
>explain why; don't jump to the barricades until someone really attacks.
>We're all on the same side.

-=-=-
T. Archer  PA142548@utkvm1.utk.edu
University of Tennessee
"Vote Dempublican, it's easier than thinking." -- Unknown
-=-=-
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: lawbkwn@buacca.BITNET (Yaakov HaMizrachi)
Subject: Homoerotic poetry
Organization: The Internet
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1992 05:59:00 GMT

Unto all who read these words, greetings
from Yaakov,

In the courses of my researches on Hebrew poetry,
I have discovered that there was a significant
amount of homoerotic poetry written by all the
major Jewish poets (of course, this my also reflect
the prejudices of the anthologizers.  The worst thing
about Harvard is they won't let me in to look at
the originals. grrrr.)
In any event, this got me interested in trying
my hand at it.  does anyone know if either the
Clan Blue Feather newsletter or BUT IT'S PERIOD
accept poetry?

In service to poetry,
Yaakov

Oh yeah, what's the deadline on the
A&S issue of Pikestaff?

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Financing Kingdoms
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 20:00:36

 MS> The SCA, Inc., and the Kingdoms are seriously underfunded.  It is a  rule of thumb that a non-profit needs to have 2 1/2 years operating funds  in the bank, and I don't think that the SCA Inc. has nearly this amount.
 On the other hand, local groups in the Middle can have large treasuries.   I know of a shire of 20 members with $3K, and baronies with over $10K.   They worked hard for it (most renfairs and large events) but I personally  would like to see some of those funds transferred to kingdom level.

 Sir Alan, while I'd agree it would be nice for our kingdoms to have more money, I don't think taking it fromt he Baronies and shires is necessarily the right way to get it.

Consider -- we recently lost our entire treasury, amounting to over $4K to an unsrupulous treasurer.  Fund-raising activities have almost brought it back up to that point, which is a relief, since we need at least half that amount to put on each of our two major events a year.  Without that cushion, the local groups can't put out advance monies for food and sites, for rattan to be re-sold to the populace, or for much-needed renovations.

Ansteorra has just recently gone to a new system, by which certain 'Kingdom Events' -- Crown, Coronation, Kingdom Arts & Sciences, King's College (like your Royal Academy), etc. tithe 30% to the kingdom if the group holding the event puts up the monies for it, and 50% if the kingdom does. This is good for a couple of reasons:  It allows larger groups to fund events themselves and with good planning, make a profit for themselves and their kingdom, and gives smaller groups with smaller treasuries the chance 



to gain some much needed cash.  The first event where this was tested was an incipient Shire doing Coronation last July.  I'm not sure how much they made, but the local seneschal was well pleased by the gate, and they'd not have had the money to pay the hall rental on their own.  Trimaris already does this, and I think it's the same in some of the Western Kingdoms.

BTW -- Tadhg's betting me you won't answer this message.  He says you never answer his....

Say hello to Lady Tabitha and Bethie for me!

-- Vashti of the Flaming Tresses, still Regional Seneschal and tired of it...
 

 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: cav@bnr.ca (Rick Cavasin)
Subject: Re: Prince of Thieves Wrongos
Reply-To: cav@bnr.ca (Rick Cavasin)
Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd.
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 92 16:32:58 GMT

When Robin is crossing a stream, there is a shot which
allows one to see that his boots have HEELS.  

Cheers,
Balderik
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: corun@access.digex.com (Corun MacAnndra)
Subject: Re: Use of Houndstooth in garb
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 03:52:49 GMT

In article <9209021208.aa11631@mc.lcs.mit.edu> MKNETTEL@kentvm.kent.EDU ("Mary Knettel ", Genevieve du Vent Argent) writes:
>I've asked a few weaver friends about the documentability of
>using cloth woven in a houndstooth pattern for garb, particularly
>early 500-800's Britain & Ireland.
>
>All I've gotten so far is that houndstooth is a type of twill
>weave and might have been used but nothing more conclusive than
>that.
>
>Has anyone run across references to houndstooth or know where I
>should look?  Also, is there some other name to describe this
>twill pattern?
>
>I found some lovely wool houndstooth fabric in white & black, red & black,
>and green & black, but didn't want to buy it just because I liked it!
>Though if it goes on sale, I can always make a jacket out of it!
>
>Thanks for your help.
>
>-Genevieve du Vent Argent, Marche of Gwyntarian, MidRealm
> Mary Knettel, KSU, Kent, OH  mknettel @ kentvm.kent.edu

My Lady I bid you greetings (and big hugs).

I was speaking with a member of my Canton this evening and she mentioned
that the British Museum had commissioned a reproduction of a sword found
at Sutton Hoo. According to her the blade was a houndstooth pattern of
interlaced iron. I know this isn't cloth, but at least they were using
the pattern on something in the 7th century.

BTW, I'm sure I could find a use for the red and black pattern. ;-)

In service,

Corun



-- 
===========================================================================
    Corun MacAnndra     |      But what if this hadn't been
  Dark Horde by birth   |        a rhetorical question?
    Moritu by choice    |                            C. Nelson
From: bq434@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Michael A. Chance)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: History vs. dreams (Was: consort gender)
Date: 9 Sep 1992 23:15:26 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: bq434@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Michael A. Chance)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, Thom Watson wrote (responding to my posting):

>One boorish e-mail respondent suggested that my arguments would
>be taken more seriously if I did not sign my posts thus. Well,
>at least he's consistent... ad hominem attacks and logical
>inconsistency are certainly well-documented in period. 

Clarification: I am not the person to which Thom is referring.  If
anything in my pevious posting was mistakenly taken as an ad hominem
attack, I most humbly apologize, for it was never my intent.  I try to
avoid such methods, having been on the receiving end of far too many in
less pleasant times.

I was attempting to respond to what I perceived to be an attitude that
"The Dream (tm)" must somehow be required to include anything that
anyone wants, including purely modern fantasies.  I disagree, and tried
to say so.
>
>Now, I find it interesting that Michelangelo and Jean d'Arc are
>brought up, by another poster, in support of a "dream" that many 
>would like to see exclude gay people and pagans.

I have never said (and never will) that I approve of the notion that
people be excluded from participation from SCA activities becaus of
their real-world lifestyles (or that of the characters they portray in
the SCA, should they be historically-based).  Real-world lifestyles
don't matter to me; what you do at home is your own business.
Characterizations at an SCA event which are blatantly modern or pure
fantasy do bother me, as I regard them as failing to attempt to
re-create pre-17th century Europe.
>
>I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, Michael, but I'd suggest
>that your use of the phrase "Glenda the Good Fairy" could be 
>construed as very offensive, especially in light of the source of
>this thread. As you no doubt know, Glinda was a witch; "fairy" is
>a rude euphemism for a gay man.

The reference to Glinda was purely alluding to the movie "The Wizard of
Oz".  It was meant to indicate an "dream" that included flying monkeys,
Munchkins, talking pest-control devices, lady magicians who melt in
washwater, and electrified, red-glitter dance shoes.  IMO, none of these
things belong in the SCA.

I think that Wicca is a fine modern religion; I also think that Glinda
would look awfully out of place at a local coven meeting.

Mikjal Annarbjorn
-- 
Michael A. Chance          St. Louis, Missouri, USA    "At play in the fields
Work: mc3078@sw1sta.sbc.com                             of St. Vidicon"
Play: bq434@cleveland.freenet.edu
      mchance@nyx.cs.du.edu
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca