From: btlee@emx.cc.utexas.edu (Mr. Byungtae Lee)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.korean
Subject: RE:YS SHOULD not BE QUALIFIED (too long....only for Mr. Minho Jo)
Date: 29 Dec 92 19:53:02 GMT
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin; Austin, Texas

From: mj03@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (MINHO JO) writes:

Subject: YS SHOULD not BE QUALIFIED   ( RE: AFTERMATH of ELECION)
      
#### First of all, I have full of regret for starting postings in this net
     where I believe I have encountered many disagreement from a few who do
     not have proper attitude to exchange different opinions.
     However, because of your labeling my political stands, I have to 
     continue this damn time consuming.

     1.  Your title:
     Then how can you accept the choice of Korean as a whole?
     Are they all foolish?  Don't you accept the result?
     Isn't it elitism?   I supplied my reasoning why DJ failed.
     I have watched your restless support for DJ. When you postied titled
     "SHOCKING NEWS.....", it was not shocking news to me and I thought
     it was natural results from DJ or opposition party's fundamental
      limitations, and so 
     I posted my reasoning why he doomed to fail and
     why I can not support him and why I can not forgive his sins which he 
     has committed in the past because I was his supporter.
     Without giving alternative explanation, some netters distorted my postings     pick up minimal data or words which they believed, can be attacked.
      
     I really want to your reasoning or explanation about what happened rather
     than your propaganda as a ardent DJ supporter. 
    

btlee@emx.cc.utexas.edu (Mr. Byungtae Lee) writes:


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

First of all,  we appreciate your vigorous arguments.   I regret
I missed chances to read all of your postings.   I agree with some of
opinions,  however I disagree with many of your ideas.  I feel that you
are so conservative.   In a sense,  you are a far-right extremist even if
you don't like yourself to be categorized.  

        2.  My political stands:
  
        It is the first time to hear this about my political attitude.
        I have kept asking you guys to provide your definition rather than 
         your "FEELING" and nobody did that so far. Even I got a blackmail
        with full of emotional expressions.
        
        Still I do not understand why you guys have to identify or name other
        poeple's political stands without discussing the relevant issues.



 In reality,  even if one
does not say which side he/she is in,   people can classify one in
category,  based on his/her trends and preference,  and previous
activities, comments,  and experiences.   Thus,  I carefully would
put you in rihgt extremism according to your preference/dislike
and comments.  You are also free to judge my trend based on what
I said before and I am saying.


          Give me examples which made you think I am a right-exptremist.
          In addition I don't care what you are. I am only interested in 
          what you are saying. I have posted the facts which I thout were
          wrong or outdated or I disagreed. That's it.
          I did not blame anyone's preferences unlike you guys. 


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Now these are my opinions in reply to yours.
Byeungtae's Claim:

>        Why did you ignore the fact that YS trashed so-called "3-parties
>        merging-secret-agreement" (Kak-Seo) of which core was parliamentary
>        system, and rejected ChongChan Lee and TJ Park's request of that when
>        he desparately needed them?

Minho's DISCUSSION:
         YS was in favor of the parliamentary system between the 87
         presidential election and the 3-party merge.  

######           
           Nope!  You are saying your story not his story.
           What's the evidence of your side?
           I told that it was DJ who pushed YS to merge in the previous
           threads. Do you remember DJ's compromise with Roh regarding
           mid-referendum after he achieved the largiest oppostion leader
           based on regionalism after such betrayal to people's wish to have
           the first civilian prez.


         Whenever people
         reprimanded his preference of the parliamentary system over
         the president-oriented system,   he withdrew his comments on
         his favorite.   Moreover, I remember he announced  abrubtly that
         he liked the president-oriented system changing from the
         parliamentary system,  right after secret meeting with DJ.
         Before announcing that,  of course he had mentioned many times
         that he had preferred the parliamentary system.    I remember that
         he repeated it several times during the period.   No matter when
         he changed his preference,  he used to make bad use of the cheap
         words,  "IF OUR PEOPLE WANT".    YS used to abuse the cheap words
         when he went down back to his home time,  Geojea-Do after having
         power games against other rivals within Minja-Dang.
         He is still abusing the cheap words.
######
               You are saying the secret deal was his preference to
               parliamentary system(PS). I do not agree. Only the reason 
               he merged was that that was only one way to be a prez because
               there was his rival DJ in the opposition side and already
               then political structure was degraded into rigionalism.
######
         Let's get to the point.   The first condition for the 3-party
         merge was to change the constitution,  that is,  changing from
         the presidential-oriented system to the parliamentary system.
         He agreed with the main point at that time.  At least,  there
         was no problem with the agreement since YS was in favor of
         the parliamentary system too.    However,  YS broke the agreement
         suddenly.   He even disclosed the secret agreement statement ((
         For this scandal,  in the Gwanhoon Club press conference held just
         before the 92 presidential election, YS refused for him to disclose
         the secret statement.   He rather tried to imply Park Chul-Un did
         it.   The columnist who asked him the question in the press conference
         wrote in a column of Ha-Guk Il Bo,  "I am very disappointed with YS's
         dishonesty,  I was well prepared evidences for the question.  I met
         the YS's follower  to double-check it,  who gave a copy of the
         secret staement to press men by YS's request.  Nevertheless,  he
         was trying to hide the truth boldly".   The columnist
         criticized YS's morals and dishonesty in the column.))
#######
              Don't you think it was his final bid and original intention to do
              so?  When such instance broke out, almost all political analysts
              agreed that he did not want to obey that secret deal and he knew
              that he could break that deal because people did not like
              PS and morever, TK did not have any significant poitical leader
              he could win his candidacy. What do you think YS's motivation 
               to mergy then?   To be a prime minister? It's your story.

              In additon, NO candidate denied the possibility of PS including
              DJ in this election. He changed his firm objection to PS just 
              20 days before election.
#######

                    BTW,  WHY DID HE BETRAY the secret statement ?
                    : First of all,  he realized that he couldn't
                    be guaranteed the prime minister position since
                    Minju-Gea could gain a few number of congressional
                    seats.   YS got big deafeat in the congressional
                    election before.  His political basis was limited
                    only to Pusan.  His Minju-Gea got 4 or 5 seats even
                    in Seoul.
                    It was obvious that the prime minister
                    should come from the majority paction,  Minjung-Gae.
                    Therfore,  he had to bet a big gambling:  Breaking
                    the promise.   Getting back to the presidential-
                    oriented system (Also, he didn't forget to abuse
                    the cheap words, "SINCE THE PEOPLE WANT").
##########
                  Do you remember this happened before congressional election
                  and because he had revealed his ambition just after merge, 
                  he had to face tough challenge from Chul-Un Park's side.
                  Don't change history. 
                  Isn't "SINCE THE PEOPLE WANT" the DJ's trademark?
                  If he is cheap because of this, DJ is cheaper.  
##########

                    He declared that he should be candidate of Minja-Dang
                    for presidency with his own justification that he was
                    only rival to compete with the powerful DJ.
                    In conclusion,  I disagree with your insist that
                    YS be consistent with preferring the prsident-oriented
                    system.   He does NOT have any philasophy on what
                    he prefer.  Of course,  the empty brain should not
                    have any concrete philosophy and principles.
                    His favorites are dependable on if he
                    can grasb power or not.   When he broke the secret
                    promise,  he didn't explain why he got back to
                    the president-oriented system.   He only abused one
                    sentence again at the moment at his home town, Geojae-Do,
                    "SINCE THE PEOPLE WANT".   In the future,  YS are
                    very likely to change the system,  depending on
                    his political status.

##########           
                        I already gave my judgement why I think he is(was)
                        politically wiser than DJ who broke the opposition 
                        party in 1987 by foolish calculation.
##########

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>        My analysis(?) goes as follows:
>        Without real political parties which have the firm roots in people,
>        parliamentary system will be the compromise among a few political
>        forces when any of them can not sustain their control over the country.
>        If any of them has the majority support of people or house,
>        presidential system will be prefered.


         Because of the above problem,   DJ promised to reform the party
         systems (Jung-Gea Gea-Pyun) if he were elected.   I believe
         that Jung-Gea Gea-Pyun can be achieved.   Because many of congressmen
         in Minja-Dang are servants of the power,  many of them possibly
         including some or all of the Gukmin-Dang,  must go to DJ who
         is assumed to be president.    And so,  I don't worry about
         the control problem.

#########
                Promise! Promise! Didn't you get my points. He could not build
                enough trust from people because he changed so many his 
                promises. Arrn't  all politicians servants of the power?
                Do you know the guys blamed DJ in  his own party and left him
                and returned to him and so on?  Do you remember DJ has
                negotiated with even CHUN, BokDong Kim, and JongChan Lee....
                So do you mean your hero DJ will embrace so called servants of
                power after election? Then what's the defference?
#########

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>        YS has more stable political basis and I do not think it will be
>        difficult for YS to have the absolute majority in house.
>        Why does he want to change it?
>        On the other hand, unfortunately it was obvious again that DJ could
                                                                    ^^^^^^^^
>        not build his political base outside his province. I am from Choong-
         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>        Buk where I could not find a bit of DJ support.
                   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>        Isn't it ridiculous that a man wants to be a national leader without
>        political mechanism outside his province?  If he encounter tough
>       opposition, what will be his choice?

        I think your argument is ridiculous.    As far as I know,  DJ had
        the neck-and-neck game in Kyunggi-Do and Choong-Nam.  DJ got 13 %
        even in Pusan where YS's stronghold site is, while YS got 0.9 % in
        Chulla-Do.   Definitely DJ got 38 % in Seoul winning over YS having
        35 (or 36) %.     You said that you could not find a bit of DJ
        support.   How can you explain that DJ got 25 % in the election
        in Choong-Buk (YS got around 34 %) ?.   Is 25% a bit ?

###############
           You should have missed my following postings. Ok let me admit
           "a bit" was mistake. However, what I said that he failed to reach
          enough outside his home province and young progressive groups.
          Did you read the article of so-called Pusan "Kikwanjanghoiui"?
          Pusan has 10% ex-Homam people. His achievement in Seoul was below
          the expectation and less than what they got in national assembly 
          election.  I said that it was because DJ destroyed then- opposition 
          party and established PDP based on regionalism. Even though his merge
          with Minjoo after 3-party merge, this fundamental limitation is not
           overcome yet.
               
          In addition, I added that my point was that DJ's lack of political
          structure beyond his personal popurlarity.
###########

        In this point,  I would like to mention the characteristics of
        the Choong-Buk people (This never means offense against the
        Choong-Buk people.  I don't have any ill feeling on them.  I just
        want to add the fact to my justification).    People said that
        the Choong-Buk people are stubborn,  very conservative,
        and are reluctent to changes.   If DJ had run as a candidate of
        Minja for the presidential election,   DJ should have obtained
        34 % as much as YS got.   Whoever runs for presidency,  they
        will be in favor of Yeo-Dang foreever.   Should be the same
        in Kangwon-Do.

############    I do not need to respond to this crap. 

        You should keep in mind that YS got 28 % in 87 presidential election.
        What if DJ had run in Minja-Dang clothes for 92 election ?
        There is no doubt DJ could win the election,  surely DJ could
        get more percent of voters than YS got.   He would have much more
        support in all over areas with Yeo-Dang's premium.  You may disagree
        with that.  (When you contradict that,  I want you first to anwer
        my question, "Kwankwon's fairness",  for instant,  unfair to
        Gukmin-Dang,  cracking down Hyndai's assists to Gukmin-Dang which was
        crucial to the 92 election, and so on.)  However,  when DJ was
        suggested to join Minja-Dang,  DJ rejected the
        proposal of parties merging, while YS betrayed the peoiple accepting
        the proposal.
            
#######      Because he was enjoying his position of the largest oppostion 
             party in the first time in his life and He believed he got the
             right way to be a prez.   In addition, he could not catch what
             Roh was saying. If he did, what do you think he might do?      
#######

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These are extra questions to Byungtae:

        1. You said most of visiting professors and researchers in
           your school support YS.

                QUESTION:  How old are they ?
                           Where are from in Korea ?
                           Do you think they are middle class or
                           upper class ?
                YOU MUST SPECIFY THE ABOVE THINGS.

########
         You should be more careful, man. It was not me who said this.
         Some other netter seconded to my analysis.
         In addition, there is no "MUST" in  this network. Do not command, man.
########

       2. You insisted that most of your frieds supported YS in 87 elction.
          You speciifed they were middle class.

#########
          When I took my experience, I was objecting the other netter's claim
          that young generation supports DJ. What I said was that that's very 
          biased sampling. 
#########

   QUESTION:  Do you have any information on that after YS
             betrayed the people joining Minja ?

#########
          You called it betrayal. But I did not.  Why?
          Do you believe that his home province voted for him because he was 
          the opposition leader? No. to make him a president who is the son of
          my home town. that's the logic behind his potical share. I insisted
          that this is the consequence of splitting oppostion party in 1987
          triggered by DJ.  After that we had only regional parties.  

          Do you know that 20-30's young voter were more than 60% in 1987?
          That's why I objected the opinion that young generation supported DJ.
######### 

    QUESTION:  How can you explain the results that most of
               my friends in this school,  are in favor of DJ ?
               Note:  Most of them are middle class,  f
                             seoul,  and are 30th.
#########
            I DID mention that DJ has strong support form college-
          or college-graduated voters. Do you think this group is the majority?
           Wasn't it the answer?  Read more carefully
           and do not repeat this stupid things.            
##########

I WILL BE LOOKING FORWARD TO YOUR GOOD DISCUSSIONS.
     
#########
          For good discussion, we need more cool heads. 
          Nether idealist without realism nor realist without idealism can 
          help our society very much.
          What I said was that oppostion party didn't have scientific approach,
          was not realistic.  
#########
Thank you,  Byuntae for reading the long argument.
    ditto.  

                      Minho Jo, Lehigh University
                      Computer Integrated Manufacturing Lab.,
                      Industrial Engineering Department.
                      MJ03@Lehigh.edu

    PS: Do IEers like argument? I studied IE for my bacholar degree.
        I'm still very interested in CIM tough.