From: salama@topaz.ucq.edu.au
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan,soc.culture.indian,soc.culture.bangladesh
Subject: Re: The Quran and the Modern Science
Date: 29 Dec 92 09:57:56 AET
Distribution: world
Organization: UCQ

In article <1992Dec27.212218.45921@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu>, dchatterjee@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu writes:
>   
>                      Bismillah-u-r-Rahamani-r-Rahim
>                      ===============================
>           (In the name of The Allah, The Beneficient, The Merciful)
> 
> 
>   First, let me assert:
> 
>   This article was *most probably not* written by Mustafa Ibrahim. Some
>   person (Muslim) who is trying to understand Al-Qur'an in a more
>   analytical way, sent this file to Mustafa Ibrahim, because this "wise"
>   person (MI) has been getting bad press lately on the SCI, SCB, SCP. We
>   all know the capability of MI's English. Thus, if MI "could" post a very
>   probing article - he would be relieved of his dumb existence - temporarily
>   of course. (The cowl doesn't change the monk - Shakespeare, Twelfth Night).

   This is nothing but Mustafa bashing based on your prejudices against him
for no apparent reason.


>   However, I personally thank MI's benefactor for having chosen to save such
>   a person from his antagonists. The article is quite interesting and there
>   will always be some doubts on the issues raised herein.
> 
> 
> In article <1992Dec27.230644.40994@slate.mines.colorado.edu>, 
>>imustafa@slate.mines.colorado.edu (MUSTAFA IBRAHIM ) writes:
>> The above mentioned subject is infact a book written by Dr. Bucaille.
>> I am goint to present some of the excerpts from the same .
>> 
>> WHAT  THIS BOOK IS ALL ABOUT
>> 
>> In this book, Dr Bucaille narrates his encounter with the Quran.
>> "It is not faith in Islam," says Dr. Bucaille, " that first guided my 
>> steps, but simple research for the truth. This is how I see it today. It
>> was mainly fact which , by the time I had finished my study, had led me to
>> see in the Quran a text revealed to a prophet." What led him to this
>> conviction was the fact it would be unthinkable " for a man of Muhammad's
>> time to have been the author of such statements0n account of the state of
>> knowledge in his days.
>> 
>> For the purpose of his study, Dr. Bucaille grouped such Quranic
>> verses containing scientific data under general headings as 
>> creation , astronomy, the earth, etc.
>> 
>> Touching on Creation, he refutes the age old Western notion (deliberate or
>> through ignorance ) that Muhammad only copied the general outlines of the
>> Bible. He compares the version of the Bible and that of the Quran ands
>> concludes that the Bibnle version is scientifically unacceptable, whereas
>> the Quranic version, not only agrees perfectly with the data discovered by
>> modern science but also is remarkably free from the erroneous notions of
>> the time. How can we then, he asks, imagine that a man who drew his
>> inspiration from the Bible text to arrive at a general concept concerning
>> the formation of the Universe, when this concept was not formed until
>> centuries after his death.
> 
>   The concept of creation of this Universe, as investigated by Jeans, Hubble,
>   Einstien, Eddington etc. are quite profound and not at all simplistic.
>   Moreover, in the recent times, Hawking-Penrose singularity equation does
>   show that there *was* a singular behavior at the time of creation. 
> 
      Do you want to imply that the people who are not physicists have no
idea of the modern theory of cosmology? It is not the precise mathematical
theories but "a general concept concerning the formation of the Universe",
outlined in the Qur'an. Read the text carefully.



>   The questions that can be put forward are:
> 
>   (1) Is there any surah (amongst 127) that describe this singular behavior ?
> 
>   (2) The word "data" appears in the above passage. What data is being
>       referred to here ?
> 

    Read the above remarks again.

>> This book contains a precious message for todays' scientists in particular
>> and modern man in general, but it should not bne forgotten, as the author
>> himself warn, that the Quran is not interested to be a scientific book but
>> it is religious book,par excellence.
>>
> 
>   This foregoing paragraph explains authors incapability (Dr.Buacille) to
>   go deeper. Any religious text/ scripture contains such statements. Many
>   times the statements are mystic - only later the human understands what
>   may have been actually intended. To the best of my knowledge Al-Qur'an

     Yes, any religious text/scripture contains such statements, but the point
raised by Dr. Buacille is that the statements in the Qur'an are not "mystic".
They are simple, sensible and intelligible.

>   [1] does contain a Surah as mentioned above, but there is nothing to be
>   overjoyed about it. To compare, the ancient Egyptians were much more adept
>   in making astronomical calculations. The Egyptians acquired this knowledge
>   earlier than Muhammad (570 - 632 A.D). The papyrus scrolls examined by modern
>   man leaves him (in most cases) dumbfounded as to how Egyptians in those days
>   could be so advanced.

      Yes, not only Egyptians but Chinese and Indians also had advanced
scientific knowledge BUT only through the scientific investigations and 
NOT as a revealation from God. The point is a person like Muhammad (SW)
and the society of His time and space couldn't produce anything like that
from the existing knowledge.


>  
>> CREATION    OF   THE   UNIVERSE :
>> 
>> When talking of the Creation there is a strong tendency in the West to
>> claim that Muhammad only the general outlines of the Bible. It is indeed
>> possible to compare the six days of the Creation as described in the Bible,
>> plus an extra day of rest on God's sabbath, with this verse from Sura
>> A'raf (7:54)
>> 
>> "  Your Lord is Allah Who created the heavens and the earth in six days."
>> 
>> We must point out straight away that modern commentators stress the
>> interpretation of ayyam, one translation of which is ' days ', as meaning '
>> long periods' or 'ages' rather than periods of twenty-four hours. 
>> What to me appears to be of fundamental importance is that , in contrast to
>> the narration contined in the Bible, the Quran does not lay down a sequence
>> for the Creation of the Earth and Heavens. It refers both to the Heavens
>> before the Earth and the earth before the Heavens, when it talks of the
>> Creation in general, as in this vers of the Sura Taha (20:4).
>> "  God who created the earth and the high heavens.
> 
>   To the best of my knowledge, Bible never claims to be:
> 
>   (1) Scientific text either,
> 
>   (2) Similar outlines regarding the light, day and night are found - at
>       least in the Old Testament.

     Very different. You got to read it again.

> 
>   (3) Comparison between the Bible and Qur'an is totally childish.
> 
>   (4) No western scientist has time to *seriously* claim that Bible is
>       better than Qur'an. (At least I have not seen any papers published
>       in Journal of Applied Physics/ Journal of Mathematical Physics etc.)
> 
>   Therefore the contentions of the author are rather pugnacious.
>  

     Of course, the western scientists don't want embarassment but the
evangelists very openly do so.

>> In fact, the notion to be derived from the Quran is one of a con-comitance
>> in the celestial and terrestrial evolultions. There are also absolultely
>> fundamental data concerning the existence of an initial gaseous mass
>> (dukhan) which is unique and whose elements, although at first  fused
>> together (ratq) subsequently became separated (fataq). Tthis notion is
>> expressed in the sura Fussilat (41:11)
>> " God turned to heaven when it was smoke ."
>> 
>> And the same is expressed in the sura Al-Anbiya (21:30).
>> 
>> " Donot the unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined
>> together, the We clove them asunder"
>>
> 
>   The above is just a forced glorification. When Qur'an does *not* claim
>   to be a scientific book, why make sich an attempt ? Why not be content
>   with the major religious and ecclesiastical canons laid down therein ?
>   This attempt by Dr.B is ridiculous and blasphemeous !
> 

    You should read the beginning of the article before calling it Dr.B's
ridiculous and blasphemeous attemp. It was his personal and sincere search
of truth which led him to those conclusions rather than a deliberate attempt.

>> The separation process resulted in the formation of multiple worlds, a 
>> notion which crops up dozens of times in the Quran, once it has formed the
>> first verse in the sura Al Fatiha(1:1).
>> 
>> " Prasie be to God the Lord of the Worlds. "
>> 
>> All this is in perfect agreement with modern ideas on the existence of
>> primary nebula and the process of secondary separation of the elements that
>> had formed the initial uniaque mass. 
>                          ^^^^^^^
> 
>     Looks like the above Shakespearean quote is correct !!!!!
> 
>> This separation resulted in the
>> formation of galaxies and then, when these divided , of stars from which
>> the planets were to be born.
> 
>   The above quote does not imply that; it is  what the author "likes" us
>   to think.
>  
>> Reference is also made in Quran to an intermediary Creation between the
>> Heavens and the Eath, as in the Sura Al - Furqan (25:59).
>> 
>> " God is the one . Who created the heavens, the earth and what is between
>> them".
>> 
>> It would seem that this intermediary Creation corresponds to the modern
>> discovery of bridges of matter which are present outside organised 
>> astronomical systems. 
>> This survey certainlyl shows us how modern data and statements in the Quran
>> agree on a large number of points. We have come a long way from, the
>> Biblical text with its successive phases that are totally unacvceptable;
>                                                             ??????????????
> 
>> especially  the one placing the Creation of the earth (on the 3rd day)
>> before that of the Heavens(on the 4th day) , when is is a known fact that
>> our planet comes from its own star, the Sun. In such circumstances, how can
>> we imagine that a man who drew his inspiration from the Bible could have 
>> been the author of the Quran and, of his own accord , have corrected the
>> Biblical text to arrive at a general concept concerning the formation of
>> the Universe, when this concept was not to be formed until centuries after
>> his death?
>> 
>> Next topic would be ASTRONOMY - LIGHT AND MOVEMENT
>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
>    In passing, I have three questions:
> 
>    Is there any place in the Holy Qur'an where Hisenberg's Uncertanity
>    Principle has been "anticipated" ??????
> 
>    Is there any place in the Qur'an where Pauli Exclusion principle has
>    been "anticipated" ?????
> 
>    How about Theory of Relativity ????
> 
>    Don't tell me that these are questions from infidels/ kafirs, please.
>
   It is the third time you have raised similar sort of questions. Read my
remarks on your first lot.

 
>    FYI, Uncertanity Principle is the fundamental component in Modern Physics
>    as enunciated by the West. Without that, the description of the Nature is
>    totally incomplete. The Qur'an sketches laws pertaining to science,
>    that are *deterministic*. However, Born, Hisenberg, Jordan have established
>    that nature is basically undeterministic. Same goes with Maxwell's equations
>     - Schwinger, Feynman and Debye's formulation.
> 
>    One can at best say that Qur'an, Bible etc. have *metaphysical* value; it
>    is simply ludicrous to assert that serious scientific thoughts were being
>    imparted thru' the Surahs. Also, nowhere did Jesus Christ (PBUH) claim that
>    Bible has a serious scientific value. 
> 

     Nowhere did Jesus Christ (PBUH) claim to be God but still it is
vigorously claimed.
     A final comment. Read the book, it is worth reading and it is very short.

>        - stay alive donks,
> 
>          deb chatterjee
>        (a good samaritan)
> 
>    [1] Muhammad William Marmaduke Pickthall, "The Meaning of the Glorious
>        Koran ".   

     Salam.
   (doesn't claim to be good)


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