HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: eugene@wilbur.nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya)
Subject: Re: An Insight
Organization: NAS, NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 92 07:01:39 GMT

In article <Oct01.004406.43941@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU>
trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU (wayne trzyna) writes:
>I'd argue that the birds probably see, feel, and know the stars on levels
>we can't even comprehend.  I'd argue further that this is also true of
>our anscestors.  We have the dubious honor of being the generation most
>ever detached from the stars (and the birds too).  When was the last time
>you (the reader) looked at the stars?  A week ago?  A month ago?  

Birds have different optical systems from mammals.  Same goes
for insects (locus with compound eyes who also navigate using stars).
Me? last saturday on a trip where one member; lights and TV have done
lots of us in.  But I also like spectroscophy as well.
A favorite quote was a realization by Hans Bethe one day when he was on a
date, his girlfriend remarked how beautiful the stars shown; Bethe realized
that that day he figured out HOW they shine.
John Denver has a nice song about constellations.

Hard to say whay my favorite constellation is, maybe Orion, maybe Lyra,
maye Pegasus or Andromeda or Cassie. Maybe the Ursas or Scorpio, or or or....

--eugene miya, NASA Ames Research Center, eugene@orville.nas.nasa.gov
  Acting Associate Editor, Software and Publication Reviews
  Scientific Programming
  {uunet,mailrus,other gateways}!ames!eugene
Seeking Books to buy:	Bongard, Pattern Recognition
			Imhof, Cartographic Relief Presentation
			Books on or by Benjamin Whorf
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: jahn@guinness.Idbsu.EDU (Greg Jahn)
Subject: Re: Coyotes (was Re: Wolves)
Reply-To: jahn@guinness.idbsu.edu
Organization: BSU - Data Center
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 16:18:09 GMT

In article <1992Oct6.013334.10817@eos.arc.nasa.gov>,
 jbm@eos.arc.nasa.gov (Jeffrey Mulligan) writes:
|>This mention of wolves reminded me I wanted to ask something
|>about coyote behavior.  I just returned from a trip to New Mexico
   [ ...]
|>left to right.  Were they aware that we were there, and did our
|>presence have anything to do with this behavior?

I'd guess they were aware of you.  I hope someday to get to hear 
a pack of wolves in the wild, but until I do I'd say that there's
nothing more purely wild and mysterious than the sounds of coyotes
at night (though I've heard a female mountain lion is really
something to hear).

I'd say one of the best solo nights I've ever had was a December
night in the high desert ... a small fire to warm my hands, a 
Jack Kerouak book, a bottle of scotch, and a pack of coyotes that
circled my camp a few times howling and yipping and having a great
time ... hell, halfway through a bottle of scotch and I joined
them in a howling symphony.  A great time, and I was flattered
by what seemed to me to be their playfull and curious interest
in me.  
 
--
Greg Jahn Boise State Univ.|'I decided to just lie low and let events
/ jahn@guinness.idbsu.edu /|take their course. Maybe that's the way
/ dosjahn@idbsu.bitnet    /|the sheep think as they are led off to the
/ (208)385-3891.thephone  /|the slaughterhouse.' On marriage, Camilo Cela
From: wegeng.henr801c@xerox.com
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Fear and Social Conditioning
Date: 1 Oct 92 15:36:05 GMT
Organization: Xerox
Originator: wegeng@ogre

In article <1992Oct01.124526.8112@brtph560.bnr.ca> JB <jbl@mesaadm.cre.nt.com> writes:
>The question: If your significant other (female) were to trek alone or in
>an all female group, what would be your degree of concern for her safety?
> I'm talking primarily about the threat of danger from other humans.
>JB

I don't give this much thought.  The women that I have dated have all
been very responsible people, and I have always trusted them to know
what situations they can handle, and what situations they cannot. 
This may be because I have never felt at risk in the backcountry
(yeas I realize that women face additional risks), but I also have
always trusted my SOs to make their own decisions about other safety
issues, such as whether they want to paddle the next rapid or portage
around it.   If they want to discuss the subject with me then I'm happy
to do so, but I won't initiate the discussion unless I think they're
about to do something really stupid (which never happens).

I believe that safety is a personal subject.  If my SO feels comfortable
doing something (including solo backcountry) then I trust her.  I'm
also available to discuss the subject, and to offer advice, but
only if she wants it.

/Don
wegeng.henr801c@xerox.com 
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: cyeomans@ms.uky.edu (Charles Yeomans)
Subject: Re: National parks to be opened to strip mining
    <1992Sep29.195915.29617@news.uiowa.edu>
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 15:48:12 GMT
Organization: University Of Kentucky, Dept. of Math Sciences

In article <1992Sep29.195915.29617@news.uiowa.edu> jones@pyrite.cs.uiowa.edu (Douglas W. Jones,201H MLH,3193350740,3193382879) writes:
>I suspect that it is quite fair to pay the mining companies for the mineral
>rights to land where mining is forbidden and they happen to own the rights.
>On the other hand, the value of these rights seems to be quite inflated!
>
>The "fair" value of such rights should take into account not only the value
>of the minerals we are camping on with our parks, but also the cost of
>extraction, including the cost of environmental restoration.
>
>Strip mining, in particular, essentially destroys the surface rights to the
>land which is mined.  When the mining laws were enacted, strip mining was
>rare, and the result, for the past century, has been a preposterous
>situation where people sell the mineral rights to their land for a fraction
>of the property value, only to have a strip mine come through and completely
>destroy the property.
>
>It seems clear to me that a fair approach to real-estate law would require
>strip miners to buy the land they intend to mine lock stock and barrel, then
>resell it (typically at a substantial loss) after they've done their best to
>restore it after stripping the coal (or gold, or copper, or whatever).
>
>With the law framed that way, I'd bet that strip mining would be far less
>popular, and I'd bet that the miners would take far more care to fix up the
>mess they make before they leave.
>					Doug Jones
>					jones@cs.uiowa.edu

This sort of thing is well-known to people in Kentucky.  Many landowners
sold their mineral rights in the last century, title being transferred
in so-called broad-form deeds.  Many years later, coal companies claimed
that these deeds allowed them to strip-mine and did so, even if they had
to get the local sheriffs to arrest the landowners first.  
In most states, it was decied that such deeds only bought the right to
mine using technology extant at the date of execution of the contract.
Kentucky legislators and jurists refused to interpret broad-form deeds
this way.  It took a constitutional amendment to fix things.

Charles Yeomans
cyeomans@ms.uky.edu
yeomans@austin.onu.edu
From: diverson@phys.ksu.edu (David Iverson)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Gender questions
Date: 28 Sep 1992 18:59:28 GMT
Organization: Kansas State University
NNTP-Posting-Host: pauli.phys.ksu.edu

Being a young man I can't really speak about safety issues.  But as far as
work load and hiking speed goes:

I generally carry the heaviest pack, regardless of who my hiking companion
is.  My last trip was with a male friend who runs a min. of 10 miles a day
and Orienteers on the national level and has about 30 pounds on me to boot
(obviously stronger).  But it was his first backpacking trip and my
experience meant that I could walk faster, longer with a heavier pack.  
I know of 3 women in my life that are a strong on the trail as I am.  This
correlates well to the 3 men that fit this bill.  In short, I've run into as
many women as men who are my equal with a back-pack on.  I think these
differences are experience and personal attitude rather than gender.  (size
does have an effect, but not as much as other factors).

I also carry a lot of weight because I'm really gung-ho.  If I were a dog,
I'd be the dog that is always running around in the woods way away from
his/her master.  If I'm wearing a heavy pack my partners can enjoy a
leisurely stroll, stop and smell flowers, take a long rest break, without me
getting antsy.

I have to admit that I take over most camp activities, hanging the bear-bag,
cooking meals, filtering water, etc... I don't resent these tasks, I enjoy
them.  And I don't rush through anything to make sure it all gets done.  I'm
just out to have fun.  But I am aware that sometimes I'm unintentionally
stepping on peoples feet.  Again, I haven't seen any gender differences in
my behavior.

Competition SUCKS!!  I may go fast and hard, but I do it out of pure joy,
not because it will make my machismo larger.  Yes, generally women are less
competitive then men and that's a good thing.  Generally I've found (through
hiking with a college outing club) that competitive men give up when they
realize that they're tired and cold and there's nothing for them to win.

In my experience I always come back from an extended mixed-gender trip
wondering why the world is so gender-polarized.  It's really strange to
bathe in a cold mountain stream with members of the opposite sex, conversing
about things, making plans, enjoying the water  and then go back to
civilization and get seperated into different locker-rooms and showers.  

I suppose that there are a lot of strange men out there.  But a part of me
can't help but feel that there would be less strange men if they weren't
sociallized into a system of gender-apartheid. 

-diverson
--
diverson@phys.ksu.edu
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: miles@ms.uky.edu (Stephen D. Grant)
Subject: Re: Identifying snakes
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 04:48:54 GMT
Organization: University Of Kentucky, Dept. of Math Sciences

While hiking near a natural arch in the Red River Gorge here in Kentucky, my
brother and I came across 2 "hikers" who were visiting from Ohio. We struck
up a conversation and as they left they said "there's two big garden snakes
further down the arch". Being the curious type, I had to go see em. Needless
to say, they were'nt "garden snakes". They were two very healthy copperheards.
They were both content sunning themselves and probably didn't even notice the
two hikers that passed less than 36" from them along the trail.
In another "encounter" I grabbed a root while climbing an arch as did about
8 other people in our group. After we had all sat there for about 40 minutes
or so I noticed a pretty large copperhead wound up in the root we all had
grabbed. I guess it never moved the whole time.
And now I will don my asbestos suit and tell of my last encounter with a
copperhead, also in the Red River Gorge. <flamebait#1> I had my young (but
well disciplined) boxer dog with the group camping. A young copperhead crossed
the trail and was sunning itself. As my dog became aware of the snake, it 
naturally wanted to play with the snake. To make a long story a bit shorter,
the snake was quite upset at my "stick" attempts to clear it over the cliff.
It got into a dense bit of brush near several tents. Better than risk it
getting into a tent later (or maybe just to ease our minds) the concensus was
that I should shoot it. Which I did. With my trusty P226 Sig. I never leave
that I should shoot it <flamebait#2>. Which I did with my trusty P226 Sig. I
never leave home without it. :)
By the way, after I killed the snake I did confirm that it was indeed a
copperhead. It was the first time I got to study one so close. I did feel
kinda guilty about killing it though. What would you have done?
From: augy@toz.buffalo.ny.us (Jeffrey Ehlinger)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: BUTTER MILK FALLS -Finger Lakes (Hiking?)
Date: 4 Oct 92 18:03:12 GMT
Organization: The Tower of Zot - (716)691-3865


     I am going to Buttermilk Falls, at the south end of one of the 
fingerlakes this weekend. I wondered if there was anyone out here, who 
knows of any spectacular hiking trails. We are taking some girl)Wx[{s 

. . .some girls along who are nubies, and are looking for some less 
challenging hiking, but wonderful scenery. i am told that there are a 
great many waterfalls there.
     Please send any advice to me at the sddress below.
THANX -Jeff Ehlinger

==========================================================================
** Mail to: Augy@toz.buffalo.ny.us        <<<Tower of Zot>>> Bflo, NY   **
** The bus came by and I got on, that's when it all began!              **
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: kiravuo@hut.fi (Timo Kiravuo)
Subject: Re: Campground safety (was Re: No alcohol, etc in NP.)
Reply-To: kiravuo@hila.hut.fi
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Computing Center
	<1992Sep21.224236.12924@col.hp.com>
	<1992Sep22.000006.3491@news.acns.nwu.edu>
	<1992Sep22.002255.4078@news.acns.nwu.edu>
Date: 27 Sep 92 14:21:32

In article <1992Sep22.002255.4078@news.acns.nwu.edu> vleppert@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Valerie Leppert) writes:
>1. Do you feel obligated to carry more than your share of the weight (per

My experience is: In large groups everybody carries his/her equal
share of the common gear and what ever own gear. If somebody has
obvious discomfort, gear is transferred.

In small groups (like when we have a three person subgroup in a
thirty person group) we usually get "personal" and pack together.
This means that the group influences the member's personal gear
selections. Then we also try to equalize the weight according to
each ones abilities and carrying equipment. Like last Easter when
we were in Sarek (Swedish Lappland) my girlfriend Paula carried
the least, since she had only a backback, while Virpi and I had
more gear in our sleds, with me carrying maybe a little bit more
since I was the strongest. Also we tended to shift gear from one
to another so that everybody could travel the same speed.

So I think that everybody should carry her/his/its' share of the
personal discomfort, not of the weight.

>2. Do you feel that the bulk of the responsibility for direction finding,

Depends on the experience of the others. Last spring, again,
Paula and Virpi were first time on a long winter trip, while this
was the fourth weeklong winter trip for me, so naturally I wiewed
myself as a kind of leader. Decisions were usually made by
discussion. Maybe I should ask women girls how they felt. 

>3. Do you avoid camping with women because they slow you down or don't take
>responsibility? 

I would not go out with women who would jus loaf along, at least
not twice. However most women I know insist of doing their share
when camping. Which sometimes bring out problems, since I am not
very good in delegating and especially I am not good in standing
and watching somebody do something clumsily for the first time,
when I know I could do it easier and faster myself.

About women going backpacking in single-sex groups. Yes, they do
it in this country and seem to be enjoying themselves. Like that
group of three women in their 50's I met earlier this month.
Haven't heard about them having any problems in general.
--
Timo Kiravuo, kiravuo@hut.fi
Helsinki University of Technology, Computer Center, Finland
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: ddavidso@nyx.cs.du.edu (Durwood Davidson)
Subject: Re: Fear and Social Conditioning
Organization: University of Denver, Dept. of Math & Comp. Sci.
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 92 17:07:05 GMT

rauletta@sitevax.gmu.edu (R. J. Auletta) writes:


>The May/June 1992 issue of the "Appalachian Trailway News" has an article
>entitled "Safety on the Appalachian Trail". Becky Blanton makes
>the following observations which apply to many situations.
>(I have paraphrased her exposition.)

> [Thought provoking suggestions and advice on paranoia techniques
    deleted]

   Is it really that bad on the Appalachian Trail?  I think I'd
rather take my chances in Watts than hike that trail.  Better yet,
hike the trail but have a couple of mean dobermans along and a loaded 
Uzi ready at all times.   And be sure to have someone keep watch
while the other(s) sleeps.
   Truthfully though, if you have to worry about stuff like the things
Ms. Blanton warns about then you aren't in the backcountry.  You're
just carrying a pack through the woods on the wrong side of town.

- Woody
From: dbernard@thewho.Central.Sun.COM (Dave Bernard)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Wolf attacks, HA. (was re: Wolves: ho to cope with ?)
Date: 6 Oct 92 15:40:11 GMT
Reply-To: dbernard@thewho.Central.Sun.COM
Organization: Sun Microsystems


If you want something canine to worry about in the wild, a better
bet is wild dogs... those raised by humans, but since gone to
run with others.  They don't have the instinctive fear of humans
that totally wild wolves do.

Dave
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: "Michael Smith" <p00004@psilink.com>
Subject: Re: Identifying snakes
Organization: Performance Systems Int'l
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 14:11:25 GMT
X-Mailer: PSILink (3.2)

>DATE:   Tue, 6 Oct 1992 04:48:54 GMT
>FROM:   Stephen D. Grant <miles@ms.uky.edu>
[material deleted]
>A young copperhead crossed
>the trail and was sunning itself. As my dog became aware of the snake, it 
>naturally wanted to play with the snake.
[material deleted]
>By the way, after I killed the snake I did confirm that it was indeed a
>copperhead. It was the first time I got to study one so close. I did feel
>kinda guilty about killing it though. What would you have done?
>

Uhhh...left the pooch at home?


Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: chris@cdc.hp.com (Chris Schiller)
Subject: Re: Wolves : how to cope with ?
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 23:37:05 GMT
Organization: HP California Design Center, Santa Clara, CA
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]


Wolves are not a threat to adults.  There has never been a documented 
case of a non-rabid wolf attacking a human adult in the last hundred years 
in the US.  Yes, I know about all of the friends of friends of friends who
had uncles/aunts/cousins attacked, but there is no evidence for it.
Fear of wolves is left over from the vilification of the animal in folklore,
Disney movies, and redneck hogwash.  General rule of thumb -- If the 
animal weighs less than you: Ignore them and they will ignore you. 
Stepping on, shooting at, trapping, stoning, and stealing of young is not
ignoring an animal.

Chris Schiller
chris@cdc.hp.com
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: sh666@selway.umt.edu (Jim Neighbors)
Subject: Re: Altitude Sickness
Organization: University of Montana
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 05:18:46 GMT

AS can be nasty.  If you think you're getting it or know someone who
is getting it, you (they) must get to lower elevation as soon as
possible.  On a particular trip of mine we reached the summit which
was at 11500' and I got AS really bad (I came off a whole winter of
sitting on my ass :) ) My vision got blurry, I couldn't think at all,
I was very nauseous, and had a peachy headache to boot.  This was all
a 'minor' case of AS.  When I'm on a trip where I will be above 10'
I like to spend a couple days aclimitizing(sp?) to the elevation.
This is especially recommened if your not in the best of your physical
condition for the trip.  Severe cases of AS can cause death......

							Dave
From: srp@babar.mmwb.ucsf.edu (Scott R. Presnell)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: North Face Bullfrog
Date: 26 Sep 92 15:21:57 GMT
Organization: UCSF Computer Graphics Lab

kai@kaijen.ka.sub.org (Kai Jendrian) writes:

>a few months ago I bought a NORTH FACE BULLFROG and a friend of mine
>did so too. We both went to the North of Sweden. Their tent had some
>problems although they had no hard conditions. One of the sticks
>broke while they built up the tent. They did it correctly, we both
[...]
>What are your experiences?

I have what I believe to be the "Windy Pass" equivalent of Bullfrog, called
Meadow.  Although I've only taken it on two trips, the first trip was in
rain and moderate wind.  It performed well.  No problems with the poles,
water seal seemed to hold, etc.  This tent was stable in the wind.  I have
been pleased with it.

-- 

	- Scott Presnell (srp@cgl.ucsf.edu)
From: watson@pioneer.arc.nasa.gov (John S. Watson - FSC)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: An Insight
Date: 28 Sep 92 20:22:13 GMT
Organization: NASA Ames Res. Ctr. Mtn Vw CA 94035

In article <Sep28.174436.58657@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU (wayne trzyna) writes:
>
> Lying staring at the stars last weekend I had an insight.
> It was one of those clear, moonless, wilderness nights and the
> stars were uncountably many.  From square in the center of my
> vacant unfocussed attention, a realization took shape:
> There's still a LOT of wilderness out there!  What's more,
> its inaccessible remoteness seems inviolable.  Everything
> is not going to hell, only our planet.  Provincial hopelessnes
> was overwhelmed by comforting insignificance.

A few years back I read a really tasty book, called 
"Beyond Spaceship Earth" (edited by Hargrove, 1988?, Sirra Club Books).  
It's a collection of papers concerning man's future envolvement
with space.   All sort of nifty ethical questions. 
Some "down to earth",  progressing to the far out.
Like control of space junk.  Nucks in space.
Control of artificial satalites.  
What if we poluted  space around earth so badly we
couldn't even see stars any more.  
Terraforming other planets (should we do it, should we keep
bits of the old planet as wilderness?)

I don't have the book in front of me now, so my memory is
sort of fuzzy ...  all the same sort of questions 
about man's right to do whatever we please to whomever we please, 
should we get the power.  It's sort of the same kind
of book Nash's  "Rights of Nature" is, only in space.

John S. Watson, Civil Servent from Hell          ARPA: watson@ames.arc.nasa.gov
HOMEBREW NAKED! --- Ursus cerevisiae nudium  (The Bare Beer Bear)

#include <stddsclm.h>
From: igb@fulcrum.bt.co.uk (Ian G Batten)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: MSR Stoves (Was Re: more bad reports on MSR filter)
Date: 1 Oct 92 08:42:30 GMT
Organization: Fulcrum Communications

In article <scott.717889722@phylo> scott@phylo.life.uiuc.edu (Scott Howard) writes:
> The MSR Waterworks (and other MSR products) looked and felt
> too complex when I tried it out in the store- the more

I am deeply fond of my MSR Whisperlite, and I think there's some
fascinating engineering at work.  The obvious alternative is a Coleman
Peak One, and I must admit that my Peak has never failed.  But if it
did, I don't know what I'd do.  The MSR can be stripped and rebuilt with
just the supplied tools, works every time and generally does the job.  I
have to clean all the soot off when I return from a trip unless I've
remembered to take a bottle of meths to start it with, but that's life.

The bottom line: if I have to use some dubious fuel, I'll quite happily
try it in the MSR because I KNOW that I can strip it, clean it and use
the clean fuel I had in reserve.  The Peak doesn't work like that.

[[ I had to run the MSR on lighter fuel a few weeks ago... ]]

ian
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: ilana@kiowa.scd.ucar.edu (Ilana Stern)
Subject: Re: Monkeywrenching/USFS puppet
Organization: NCAR/UCAR
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 16:23:21 GMT

In article <162048@mbf.UUCP>, fmt@mbf.UUCP (Mike Trimberger) writes:
 
> From what I've read,  Gore is about as good an environmentalist as Bush
> is.  His only credential seems to be a book that is based on opinion
> instead of fact. 
> ...or so I've read...

Gore has my respect as an intelligent man who goes to the researchers
and attempts to learn the science behind the politics.  Everyone I've
spoken to who has talked with him about science has been impressed
with his interest in the environment and his willingness to learn.
I think he may be too idealistic, but I think that maybe when this 
idealism meets the entrenched anti-environment establishment, perhaps
a decent compromise will be achieved.
-- 
/\                
  \_][ <--NCAR Ilana Stern dod#009 r.b. cliff swallow ilana@ncar.ucar.edu    
      \______________________________________________________________________