HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: J.Crowcroft@cs.ucl.ac.uk (Jon Crowcroft)
Newsgroups: comp.protocols.iso
Subject: Re: ISO specs.
Date: 28 Sep 92 08:23:40 GMT


 >|   Where do you get your figures?  My understanding (without any
 >|   official stats) is that OSI is creeping slowly into the public
 >|   sector, but TCP/IP systems (and IP router) sales are booming in the
 >|   private sector, and keeping ahead in the public sector.
 >Sure, but a handful of years has an enormous effect on exponential
 >growth curves.  I'm assuming a growth curve which goes linear spread,
 >through exponential growth, to linear at the tangential, and matures at
 >a logarithmic curve (range (0,->)) approaching saturation.

hmm - with various announcements like ERNET in india, i suspect you
are gonna see another order of logarithimic growth injected into
internet protocols

the Internet trick to have free specs
was to distribute the cost of specs and implemntations throughout all
itnerested parties -

ISO arguments about covering costs through copoyright are balderdash -
just look at the costs all the companies inveolded have in travellign
to the absurdly expensive places the ISO and CCITT committees hold
their meetings, (i agree that all the IETF  being in the states doesnt
help comparison very well, though)

 >(Note: if you didn't read all of this article, please mail me and
 >complain about its length.)
(complain:-)

 jon
Newsgroups: comp.protocols.iso
Subject: Re: ISO specs.
From: jms@mrsvax.mis.arizona.edu (Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem)
Date: 29 Sep 1992 15:34 MST  
Reply-To: jms@arizona.edu
Distribution: world,local
Organization: University of Arizona MIS Department
X-Lunar-Date: 1 day, 7 hours, 59 minutes since the new moon
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    

In article <BvB1oM.M2r@cgl.ucsf.edu>, davidr@socrates.ucsf.edu (David Rivkin%Kollman) writes...
>For me, the cost of purchasing all of the standards that I need would eat
>up almost 2 years of my income (from fellowships) and I am trying to get my 
>work done.  This makes FTP or even online library access to those docs.
>a necessity.  but that does not exist.  So no work gets done.

That sounds extremely bogus to me.  Unless your assistantship is for
$10/month, I can't imagine how you could come up with a list of standards
required for a dissertation which would cost more than a thousand bucks. 
My perception is that most people are just lazy; they're not willing to go
out of their way to get copies of standards since FTP is so simple.  

However, if you're sincere, then here's several ways you can get what you
want:

1- if your research has any merit, then you can certainly find an
industrial sponsor, and that sponsor would be more than happy to buy you
standards if they thought you would do them some good.  This is how I did
it.

2- many University libraries are willing to buy standards; if you (and your
advisor, and your department head) were to ask for them, they might very
well be willing to add them to their collection.  

3- you're part of the largest University system in the world.  I know that
a full set of the CCITT Recommendations were at UCSD about ten years ago. 
It's possible that one of the other UC libraries has them and you can get
them on ILL. 

4- even if you can't find an industrial partner who will buy you the
standards, you might be able to find a company in the area who will buy
them (or which already has them) that will let you borrow for a spell. 

I'm not arguing against having on-line access to ISO and CCITT documents;
I'm just trying to suggest ways that you can solve your own problem.

Joel M Snyder, 1103 E Spring Street, Tucson, AZ, 85719 
Phone: 602.882.4094 (voice) .4095 (FAX) .4093 (data)
BITNET: jms@Arizona  Internet: jms@arizona.edu  SPAN: 47541::telcom::jms
I'm EMOTIONAL now because I have MERCHANDISING CLOUT!!
From: pruett@CS.ColoState.EDU (J. L. Pruett)
Newsgroups: comp.protocols.iso
Subject: Def/description of OSI
Date: 28 Sep 92 21:50:18 GMT
Organization: Colorado State University, Computer Science Department


I'm looking for info on OSI. Is there an FAQ here?  
I realize it isn't ISO, but I have seen it discussed here (some).
A general overview of what it is would be helpful, just for starters. 

Thanks,
Jenny
From: west@mgmt3.ncsl.nist.gov (Jim West)
Newsgroups: comp.protocols.iso
Subject: Re: GOSIP specs
Date: 29 Sep 92 12:21:26 GMT
Organization: Syetem and Network Architecture Division, CSL, National Institute of Standards and Technology

In article <1992Sep28.055457.72@taney.uscghq.uscg.mil> roseberry@taney.uscghq.uscg.mil writes:
>
>	Even though the ISO specifications are sold for operating costs,
>	are the US government's GOSIP specifications available via FTP
>	anywhere ?
>
>	Thanks.
>
>	- Bert Roseberry
>	  US Coast Guard
>	  roseberry@taney.uscghq.uscg.mil

Yes,

US The US GOSIP specification is available via anonymous ftp. 

The machine you want to ftp to is:
			osi.ncsl.nist.gov  (129.6.48.100)

The directory is ./pub/gosip  for GOSIP version 2 (./pub/gosip.v1 for
gosip version 1)  It is available in three different formats: WordPerfect 5.0,
PostScript, or ACSII text (The ACSII text version doesn't have the figures
that the WP and PostScript formats do).

Hope this helps,

Jim

-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Jim West
National Institute of Standards and Technology
west@mgmt3.ncsl.nist.gov
Newsgroups: comp.protocols.iso
From: mskuhn@immd4.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Markus Kuhn)
Subject: Re: Catalogue of OSI and Related standards
Reply-To: mskuhn@immd4.informatik.uni-erlangen.de
Organization: CSD., University of Erlangen, Germany
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1992 07:36:56 GMT
Keywords: OSI,catalogue,search

It would be really great if someone could compile a free on-line list
of current OSI standards! The CCR list and the notes in the ISO bulletin
might perhaps be an adequate sources for this list. Please make it
parseable (e.g. BibTeX or SGML).

Markus
(working on an very incomplete 
and short list for the FAQ)

-- 
Markus Kuhn, Computer Science student -=-=- University of Erlangen, Germany
Internet: mskuhn@immd4.informatik.uni-erlangen.de  |  X.500 entry available
-A distributed system is one in which the failure of a computer you didn't-
-even know existed can render your own computer unusable. (Leslie Lamport)-
From: shafer@CS.ColoState.EDU (spencer shafer)
Newsgroups: comp.protocols.iso
Subject: ODA/ODIF
Date: 29 Sep 92 13:30:20 GMT
Organization: Colorado State University, Computer Science Department

I'm interested in the status of ODA/ODIF as a standard.  Where does it fit
in GOSIP?  What is its relationship to SGML?  I have a vague concept
of ODA, but nothing at all about ODIF.  Is there a reference, a book?

Isn't ODA becoming mandatory for USGov't procurements because of GOSIP
Version 2 (effective October 3, I think)?  

How close is ODA with DEC's CDA?

Thanks in advance for any info.

-- 
/\__________________________________________________________________/\
||                     SPENCER SHAFER                               ||
|| email:shafer@handel.cs.colostate.edu    Work Phone: 303-498-0901 ||
\/------------------------------------------------------------------\/
From: abrown@seqp4.uucp (Alex Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.protocols.iso
Subject: Re: Wanted: X.400 protocol spec
Date: 30 Sep 92 14:45:04 GMT
	<Bv1AEp.FEq@immd4.informatik.uni-erlangen.de>
	<1992Sep25.150555.13451@bluemtn.COM>
Organization: Sequoia Systems, Inc. Marlboro MA, USA
In-reply-to: perry@bluemtn.COM's message of 25 Sep 92 15:05:55 GMT

You can obtain paper copies of CCITT recommendations at reasonable
prices from: 

	UN Bookstore
	United Nations
	New York NY USA 10017
	(800) 553-3210
	(212) 963-7680
	      963-4910 fax

--
Alex Brown                OSI anchorite
Sequoia Systems      abrown@sequoia.com
400 Nickerson Rd   (508) 480-0800 x1614
Marlboro MA 01752        481-2418   fax  
Newsgroups: comp.protocols.iso
From: rlglende@netcom.com (Robert Lewis Glendenning)
Subject: Bet CCITT officials don't read this forum !
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 92 15:57:09 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 

I wouldn't expect OSI officials to be reading the forum. But somebody
at CCITT should be, and they should be able to set up access to their
summaries or working documents?

However, the fact that none of the documents are available, and that
tcp/ip is winning in the market, is a system state problem. It is
compounded from economics (ISO's source of income) and the mental
set of CCITT/ISO officials who still think in terms of paper, not
e-mail or ftp.

This kind of problem takes a lot more than letters to get changed.
If anything is going to be done, IMHO, it will have to be private
(I liked the suggestion of netters writing summaries) or via the
working committees net-publishing working documents (I assume they
have the power ??).

I think that sharing test programs, etc. is also important to lowering
the cost of implementations.

Lew
-- 
Lew Glendenning		rlglende@netcom.com	408-245-7488

"Perspective is worth 80 IQ points."	Nils Bohr (or somebody like that).
Newsgroups: comp.protocols.iso
From: man@cssc-syd.tansu.com.au (Michael Needle)
Subject: FAQ
Summary: FAQ
Organization: AOTC - CSSC
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 07:40:44 GMT

I am interested n obtd ain obtaining a frequently asked question list for this news group. Any assistance would beappreciated.
Newsgroups: comp.protocols.iso
From: jane@citr.uq.oz.au (Jane Clark)
Subject: Catalogue of OSI and Related standards
Summary: Query: lists of OSI standards titles available?
Keywords: OSI,catalogue,search
Organization: Prentice Centre, University of Queensland
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1992 02:10:16 GMT

Hi, is there an ftp site that holds a list of OSI and related standards?

... and/or an on-line catalogue?


Why do I ask? 

... well, we are an R & D organization in the area of OSI.  We
receive the working documents from OSI / JTC1 / SC21, SC18 and SC6. (Some of
you will know how bulky this is.)  

Our problem is that we want to know what ISs, DISs, CDs, amendments, 
defect reports, etc, we have, where they are filed and also to be able to
do the usual things like keyword searches on our standards catalogue. 
... and we want to add books and other resources to our catalogue.

P.S.:   How have other people tackled this problem?  (We are thinking of using
bib/tib to begin with, hopefully importing a public domain list as a
starting point.)

Thanks
Jane


--
Jane Clark                                     | 
Centre for Information Technology Research     | jane@citr.uq.oz.au
University of Queensland  QLD  4072  AUSTRALIA | uunet!citr.uq.oz!jane
PHONE: +61-7-365-3545 FAX: +61-7-365-4399      |
From: petonic@hal.com (Michael A. Petonic)
Newsgroups: comp.protocols.iso
Subject: Re: IGOSS (Was Re: GOSIP specs)
Date: 2 Oct 92 18:09:04 GMT
	<1992Sep29.153236.29167@cc.gatech.edu>
Reply-To: petonic@hal.com (Michael A. Petonic)
Organization: Henry's Laughing Gas Co., Inc.

In article <1992Sep29.153236.29167@cc.gatech.edu> rjc@cc.gatech.edu (Russell J. Clark) writes:
>>Yes,
>>
>>US The US GOSIP specification is available via anonymous ftp. 
>
>What about IGOSS documents? I haven't seen much on this other than
>a couple of trade rag announcements. Are there any IGOSS documents yet?
>If so, how does one go about obtaining them?

The same machine (osi.ncsl.nist.gov) has some IGOSS documents in
/pub/documents/{igoss-fr-plan,igoss-fr-proj-plan}.ps at sizes
65K and 98K respectively.

-pet-
--
Michael A. Petonic	       petonic@hal.com		       +1-512-794-2855
        HaL Computer Systems International, Ltd. -- A Bermuda Corporation
                     Director of Dangerous Activities  [ACK to GeoffK@ism780c]
				 Austin, Texas
                          "No balls, no blue chip."
Newsgroups: comp.protocols.iso
From: mskuhn@immd4.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Markus Kuhn)
Subject: Re: ISO specs.
Reply-To: mskuhn@immd4.informatik.uni-erlangen.de
Organization: CSD., University of Erlangen, Germany
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 12:55:29 GMT

Is anyone forwarding the opinions expressed in this discussion to some
higher layers within the International Organization for Standardization,
to the people who make the decisions about prices and distribution
conditions for ISO docs? I'm quite sure that the ISO president doesn't
read this USENET group regularly, so it's time to write a few letters,
isn't it? Perhaps ISO simply underestimates the interest for their
documents outside the implementation departments of huge companies ...

Net access to OSI standards isn't even the best technical solution.
A CD rom with SGML files of all relevant standards and an official
ISO-SGML -> Postscript converter running under MS-DOS for about $150
might perhaps be sold 10 time more often then all OSI standards together,
because each company could affort buying a CD for each developper
each year. ISO could make a lot of money and at the same time save a
whole forest. What they are doing at ISO at the moment is just bad 
marketing!

Markus

-- 
Markus Kuhn, Computer Science student -=-=- University of Erlangen, Germany
Internet: mskuhn@immd4.informatik.uni-erlangen.de  |  X.500 entry available
-A distributed system is one in which the failure of a computer you didn't-
-even know existed can render your own computer unusable. (Leslie Lamport)-
Newsgroups: comp.protocols.iso
From: J.Crowcroft@cs.ucl.ac.uk (Jon Crowcroft)
Newsgroups: comp.protocols.iso
Subject: Re: ISO specs.
Date: 28 Sep 92 08:20:35 GMT


 >That's not strictly accurate, unless you're plotting the Internet growth on
 >a logarithmic scale. It was still exponential in July. I don't know 
 >about the OSI growth patterns; however the moral loss of the Janet community
 >to JIPS ought to have sent things into a bit of a slide. Since Janet 
 >was supposed to be an OSI flagship, and since people are only using the OSI
 >side of things when they are forced to at budget-point, this is a major 

please dd'nt use the term "moral"  nthe context of a technical
decision to provide a service requested by users -

the efforts of the JNT to foster real OSI products were gigantic,
however, they were slightly dwarfed by the DoD and DARPA funding the
ARPANET, BSD unix TCP code, buying ciscos for the gulf,. etc etc...

its nothing to do with morals (although ythe moral of the story
is...:-)

 jon
From: mskuhn@immd4.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Markus Kuhn)
Newsgroups: comp.protocols.iso
Subject: Free ISO specs? OK!
Date: 28 Sep 92 14:32:18 GMT
Reply-To: mskuhn@immd4.informatik.uni-erlangen.de
Organization: CSD., University of Erlangen, Germany

ses@cmns-sun.think.com (Simon Edward Spero) writes:

>Getting back to the subject of the original message, one thing that
>might be worth a try is setting up a 'free OSI foundation':  ...

A more realistic effort then founding a 'Free OSI foundation' (who
will pay all this?) would be an effort to find enough volunteers
on the USENET who write good summaries of the most interesting ISO
standards. I would offer managing an anonymous ftp server where all
these summaries will be stored and I have already written a summary
of asynchronous HDLC framing (ISO 3309/Ad.1-3). Who else wants to
contribute documents that explain ISO standards in detail to
the citizens of netland?

There are many ISO standards with less then 30 pages. Especially these
short documents (e.g. ISO 8601: date and time format, NSAP adr., ...) are 
quite easy to translate in a language much better understandable to the
average programmer (e.g. octetts -> bytes) and producing a new
text with the same normative content is often possible within a weekend.

Only the contents (= the text and graphics) are copyrighted by ISO,
not the protocols, formats, APIs, definitions, ... (BUT: Some ISO
standards describe patented algorithms, for instance nearly everything
related with compression techniques, e.g. JPEG, JBIG, MPEG).

If you don't have access to the ISO documents, well, in Germany it is
completely legal to make up to seven copies of everything for private use
only, so there would be a way to bring single cheap copies to
the people who will translate them into better understandable and
free (non-commercial!) versions.

It won't be too difficult to get a moderated goup (comp.doc.iso-summary?) for
distributing the results and I'm quite sure that the results will soon
become as popular as the RFCs. A standardized layout and a proof reading 
concept might also be useful.

Good Idea? Go ahead!

Markus

BTW: These efforts are unlikely to do any harm to ISO, as the people who
really need the original version (implementors, conformance testers, ..)
will still order the paper versions. And yes, believe it or not, there
are people without Internet access out there in the world (#>5*10^9). :-)

-- 
Markus Kuhn, Computer Science student -=-=- University of Erlangen, Germany
Internet: mskuhn@immd4.informatik.uni-erlangen.de  |  X.500 entry available
-A distributed system is one in which the failure of a computer you didn't-
-even know existed can render your own computer unusable. (Leslie Lamport)-
From: ics.ralph@Control.Com (Ralph Mackiewicz)
Newsgroups: comp.protocols.iso
Subject: SNMP for OSI
Date: 30 Sep 92 18:56:56 GMT
Reply-To: ics.ralph@control.com
Organization: Industrial Computing Society

Dear Netters:

I am looking for an Internet document that describes how to map OSI
Transport Class 4 and CLNP to SNMP so that the lower layers of the
OSI stack can be managed by an SNMP based network management system.
Does someone know the RFC number of this document?  Or, is there some
other source for this information? 

Thanks for your help.

Ralph Mackiewicz
SISCO, Inc.
6605 19-1/2 Mile Road
Sterling Heights, MI 48314-1408 USA
Tel: 313-254-0020, Fax: 313-254-0053
Internet: 2943439@mcimail.com (access is via MCI Mail)
or:  ics.ralph@ics.org
From: atkinson@itd.nrl.navy.mil (Randall Atkinson)
Newsgroups: comp.protocols.iso
Subject: Re: SNMP for OSI
Date: 1 Oct 92 01:22:31 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Naval Research Laboratory, DC

At _ALL_ of the standard anonymous ftp sites for RFCs there is a
current file named rfc-index which provides names and rfc numbers
(an index, how quaint :-).

Folks should USE the darned RFC-INDEX to find which RFC they are after
rather than posting RTFM type questions to the whole world.

For newcomers I'll recap that the canonical sites for RFCs include,
but aren't limited to:
	nic.ddn.mil	(Virginia)
	nisc.sri.com	(California)
	nnsc.nsf.net	(Massachusetts)

(others such sites exist in OZ-land and Europe at least)
Newsgroups: comp.protocols.iso
From: rlglende@netcom.com (Robert Lewis Glendenning)
Subject: Re: ISO specs.
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 92 19:45:45 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 

I have always heard the ISO standards guys described, disparagingly,
as "telephone bureaucrats".

The idea they can make $ out of standards documents, and the decision
to distribute on paper, certain makes them archaic minds. They also
don't seem to understand, or at least to be concerned with, the process
by which standards get translated into products.

Of course, it is difficult to think of international standards which
were developed in advance of the actual products which have resulted
in products. Hard to know whether this is due to the futility of such
a standards effort or to the bureaucracy by which it is accomplished.

I don't mean to cause flames. 8^)

Lew
-- 
Lew Glendenning		rlglende@netcom.com	408-245-7488

"Perspective is worth 80 IQ points."	Nils Bohr (or somebody like that).
Newsgroups: comp.protocols.iso,comp.protocols.iso.x400
From: mskuhn@immd4.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Markus Kuhn)
Subject: FAQ list (was: Wanted: X.400 protocol spec)
Reply-To: mskuhn@immd4.informatik.uni-erlangen.de
Organization: CSD., University of Erlangen, Germany
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1992 09:50:30 GMT

perry@bluemtn.COM (Perry Minyard) writes:

>>You can order all CCITT recommendations (e.g. X.400, F.400, X.500,
>>F.500, X.200, ...) from
>>
>>     International Telecommunication Union
>>     General Secretariat - Sales Section
>>     Place des Nations
>>     CH-1211 Geneva 20
>>     Switzerland
>>

>That's great, thanks.   I bet there is somewhere in the USA that I can
>order it from ??

I am collecting these things for a monthly posted FAQ list for the USENET group
comp.protocol.iso. The addresses I have already are

   ISO, Geneva
   CCITT, Geneva
   ECMA, Geneva
   DIN, Berlin

Can anyone give me other importent sources of documents with addresses,
e.g. UN bookstore, ANSI, OMNICOM, NIST, IEEE, X/Open, ...?

BTW: You can also mail me good answers for the following questions
(and others):

   What is OSI?
   What are ISO, CCITT, ECMA, ANSI, NIST, OIW, ...?
   Why can't I ftp ISO documents anywhere?
   Electronically available CCITT recommendations?
   Where can I get the documents?
   Why are ISO documents so expensive?
   How are ISO standards made?
   A short list of OSI standards:
   Good books:
   Which is better: OSI or TCP/IP? Opinions: ;-)
   What free OSI implementations are available? (ISODE and ???)
   What is ASN.1?
   Other ISO standards relevant to programmers: (e.g. character sets, ...)
   Short summaries of recently published NEW standards:
   Planned standards: (X.gc, MHEG, OSI X Windows System, ...)
   ...

Markus

-- 
Markus Kuhn, Computer Science student -=-=- University of Erlangen, Germany
Internet: mskuhn@immd4.informatik.uni-erlangen.de  |  X.500 entry available
-A distributed system is one in which the failure of a computer you didn't-
-even know existed can render your own computer unusable. (Leslie Lamport)-
Newsgroups: comp.protocols.iso
From: proyse@peeras.demon.co.uk (Phil Royse)
From: bwolfe@rad.rpslmc.edu (Brian A. Wolfe)
Subject: Re: Wanted: X.400 protocol spec
Reply-To: user@machine.domain
Organization: Rush Presbyterian-St. Lukes Medical Center
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1992 20:21:49 GMT

In article <p59n+4q.rlglende@netcom.com>, rlglende@netcom.com (Robert Lewis Glendenning) writes:
|> Does anybody besides myself find it strange/archaic/perverse that ISO
|> standards are not available via ftp over the most widely used network
|> in the world?
|> 
|> Lew

Doesn't ISO realize that we might be a lot more willing to 
use OSI if they make it easy to educate people about it?

They should be bending over backwards to give me the specs so I'll
consider implementing it! Virtually everything I read/hear about 
about ISO/OSI leaves a real bad taste in my mouth. The way things 
seem to be going now (IETF re-engineering IP addressing & 
X.400/X.500 available over IP) ISO should be concerned that TCP/IP 
doesn't completely leave it in the dust.

Get with it ISO!

regards,

Brian


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brian Wolfe						
Associate Director
Dept of Diagnostic Radiology and Nuclear Medicine
Rush Presbyterian-St. Lukes Medical Center 
Chicago,  IL   USA 
Internet: bwolfe@rad.rpslmc.edu    
Voice:    (312)-942-2141          FAX:  (312)-942-2114
Newsgroups: comp.protocols.iso
From: ag129@cus.cam.ac.uk (Alasdair Grant)
Subject: Re: Catalogue of OSI and Related standards
Keywords: OSI,catalogue,search
Organization: U of Cambridge, England
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1992 12:52:40 GMT

In article <BvJBtK.CFK@immd4.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> mskuhn@immd4.informatik.uni-erlangen.de writes:
>It would be really great if someone could compile a free on-line list
>of current OSI standards! The CCR list and the notes in the ISO bulletin
>might perhaps be an adequate sources for this list. Please make it
>parseable (e.g. BibTeX or SGML).

If anyone can tell me where I can find up-to-date information on the
status (DP/DIS/IS etc.), of each ISO standard, I could add it to my
current list (in SGML) of ISO/CCITT/ECMA standards and acronyms.

Anyone sure whether publishing such a list is ok legally?
Newsgroups: comp.protocols.iso