HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mquellas@netcom.com (Matthew Quellas)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Query: US Pagans Banned by UK/Euro-Pagans?
Summary: Have US Pagans been banned by UK/Euro-Pagans?
Keywords: UK, Euro-Pagans, Banned
Date: 12 Jan 93 01:24:00 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)


	Here in the Los Angeles area we are hearing of a ban
of US Pagans by UK and Euro-Pagans. Folks who have been
travelling or living in the UK/Europe are coming back with
tales of being excluded from activities and associations with
British and European groups. We have heard that this is the
result of a visit from a local LA group. 
	True? Not true?
	What have any of you heard?
	Can it be substantiated?
	If you have heard the same, please either e-mail me
with details or post here. Either way, let me know if what you
have to say can be used on another service. 
	When the fan is turned on, sometimes people throw shit
at it. That's happening here. We would just like to make sure
the fan is pointed in the right direction.

     ---=====---Quit the Night and Seek the Day---=====---
			Matthew
-- 

	Matthew Quellas
		mquellas@netcom.com  
Xref: sparky alt.pagan:15220 talk.religion.misc:25773 alt.atheism:25614 alt.slack:3656
From: livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan,talk.religion.misc,alt.atheism,alt.slack
Subject: Re: God's math accuracy was The meaning of "pagan"
Date: 11 Jan 93 06:03:55 GMT
Organization: sgi
NNTP-Posting-Host: solntze.wpd.sgi.com

In article <C0oA5K.4LD@rice.edu>, swaim@owlnet.rice.edu (Michael Parks Swaim) writes:
|> In article <fXOhmly@quack.sac.ca.us> pharvey@quack.sac.ca.us (Paul Harvey) writes:
|> >In article <C0nFxx.1BM@rice.edu> 
|> >swaim@owlnet.rice.edu (Michael Parks Swaim) writes:
|> >>  So you want God to give dimensions precise to 7 digits to bronze age
|> >>nomads, and expect them to deliver? That would be malicious. (I don't
|> >>think modern architectural designs are given with that sort of precision.)
|> >
|> >Precision? Oh I don't know. Seems like the stone fitting of the pyramids
|> >would fit that bill, it's not easy doing mortarless stone work you know,
|> >particulary large scale engineering projects designed to last thousands
|> >of years.
|>
|>   Not the ones in Egypt. There's greater than 1% variation in the individual
|> blocks, and none of the pyramids have anything close to a perfectly square
|> base. They were experts, and didn't achieve the quality you're looking
|> for. Solomon the Wise, on the other hand, couldn't even do it on his own,
|> and had to call in outside expersts. I still think that you're asking 
|> too much.

I hope I'm not reading too much into this, but it looks as though
you are saying that the Bible as written is tailored to a certain
Age and society.    They were only capable of comprehending (using?)
pi about 3.

But we know better.    So what else do we "know better" about?   Well,
I guess we know that eating shellfish is safe, and wearing a red dress
doesn't make you a prostitute, and walling up isn't a very effective
way of dealing with leprosy, and when pigs run around they are not
really being possessed by demons, and you can't really see the four 
corners of the world from a high mountain, and slaughtering neighbouring
societies down to the last child isn't such a hot idea, and .....?

And, well, it's getting to be kind of a long list, isn't it?   Where
does it stop?    That is, at what point is the Bible the Bible again,
and not some rough approximation handed out to primitives that we have 
to tidy up?

Or more concisely, what is the difference between "word of God" and
"vague mummblings of a pre-rational society"?

jon. 
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: markbr%radian@natinst.com (markbr)
Subject: Re: Amazons and the Labrys - was: Re: Question/symbol
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 19:03:34 GMT
Organization: n.o.y.b

In article <4164@master.CNA.TEK.COM> richa@grizzly.CNA.TEK.COM (Grizzly Amber) writes:
>
>I have been following this discussion, not due particularly to any
>strong interest in people who call themselves "Amazons" or to gay
>or lesbian activities, but because you *appear* to be discussing a
>symbol that I wear too.
>
>I have a small double-edged ax on a chain. There is a dragon wound
>around the haft and it hangs blades down.
>
>To me, the dragon represents earth power (ala druids) and the two
>opposing blades say that the truth cuts both ways.
>
>Now, my question to you folks is this: By me wearing this symbol,
>will the world at large think I am part of what you have been discussing
>rather than accepting my own interpretations?
>
>Griz

I like your interpretation, but, obviously, unless they *ask* you, they'll
assume they know, if they know what it means. Got that?

	mark
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: "amy lynn young-leith" <alyoung@kiwi.ucs.indiana.edu>
Subject: Opinions of this source(was Re: something irritating in Ms. Magazine)
Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1993 20:13:50 -0500

In article <2B5096D8.10556@news.service.uci.edu> cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese) writes:
[...]
>In this issue, they discuss the very real and sad existence of cult
>ritual abuse of children.  Also in the issue, they actually use the word
>Wicca, which I've never read on their pages; I've always been a little
>disappointed in the invisibility of Paganism and women's spirituality on
>their pages.  They mention various observances of the new year in
>passing, Wiccan being one of them.  They also do a piece on Salem
>witchcraft, and in it they do discuss the Craft itself, unfortunately
>mostly with Laurie Cabot, but at least it's a nice "This is legit" type
>of thing.

Since some of the books I've been directed to by different people are
by Ms. Cabot, I am compelled to ask why this is "unfortunate?"  I
haven't read any yet, as a matter of fact, but am curious as to any
comments on her. 

amy
-- 
alyoung@kiwi.ucs.indiana.edu for personal mail
			    All business mail to alyoung@silver.ucs.indiana.edu
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
             I.U. probably doesn't agree with me.  I don't speak for
                    them so it doesn't matter, now does it?
From: ksm@abb-sc.abb-sc.com (Ashley)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Family passed religions
Summary: "X" speaks, Ashley comments.
Date: 6 Jan 93 02:50:42 GMT
Organization: Kaos Laboratories


I am now on the phone with my friend who is a "fam-trad" (she doen't like 
the name and thinks it makes her sound like a toad!)

"X" says:

	"Basicly, if this is recognised as a secret religon and is accepted 
as such, then if I told you my ceremonies, my deities, my tools, it would 
cease to be secret and it would cease to be my family. If you people accept 
magick, why can't you accept that things like this exist? 

	As for my family line, how would you lkie me to prove that to you? 
I come from illiterate peasant stock in Eastern Europe. Records of peasants 
where not kept in writing, they where kept orally. At that time there was 
no priest to mak down records of birth, there was a mid-wife, and she did 
not write.

	That is all I have to say."


	If you want something to compare my friend's religion to, look to 
the story "The Circle Broken" in "Voices from the Circle" by Catlain 
Mathiews. "X" says that it is filled with sweeping generalizations, 
but it's views on secrecy and purity of bloodline are fairly accurate.

	I am satisfied that my friend is indeed what she is. I looked at 
her and her tradition from a very sceptical viewpoint at first and she 
has convinced me. She is not part of the pagan community at all and and 
I have had to tell her about Gardner, Sanders, Leek and all the others. 
We have specualted that Gerald Gardner met someone who taught him some, 
but not all. The rest of it we presume came from Golden Dawn or something 
similar. Her traditions come from Eastern Europe, so I don't think that 
they have much bearing on the decendants of Gardner's English traditions.

	I cannot say much more than this, and I hope this satisfies at 
least some of the curiosity I have generated. I am sorry to not to be 
able to say more, but I have a sacred oath to keep to some very special 
friends and I will not break it for curiosity or anything. My intent was 
not to cause such a commotion, but to reassure people that, yes something 
did indeed survive the christening of Europe intact.


		Blessings and harvest moons, 

			- Ashley

				.........and "X"
From: Vossdavi@student.msu.edu (Lisa  Ann)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Apologies to A. Lizard & all.
Followup-To: alt.pagan
Date: 10 Jan 1993 06:03:04 GMT
Organization: Chaotic Goods
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: cemmac03.cem.msu.edu


     I've borrowed an e-mail address from a very kind person who never uses
it. This was as recently as a couple of days ago. I haven't actually used
it, but assume it works. I'm very sorry for any inconveniences I may have
caused. I'm new and unusual. (And now I'm new and improved!) Any
information on the significance of a black hilt on an athame would be
deeply appreciated! The more I think about it the more curious I get!

     Blessings! Lisa Ann, or she who is perpetually lost.

********************************************************************************
     I'm not sure where I'm going, but that's o.k. Half the fun is getting
there! -me.    Nevermind the map. I'd never get the damn thing folded back
up anyway. -me again.   And lets hear it for people who make up sigs. at
3:30 a.m. May they still respect themselves in the morning. -anon.
********************************************************************************
Newsgroups: alt.pagan,talk.religion.misc,alt.atheism,alt.slack
From: swaim@owlnet.rice.edu (Michael Parks Swaim)
Subject: Re: God's math accuracy was The meaning of "pagan"
Organization: Rice University
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 04:36:56 GMT

In article <fXOhmly@quack.sac.ca.us> pharvey@quack.sac.ca.us (Paul Harvey) writes:
>In article <C0nFxx.1BM@rice.edu> 
>swaim@owlnet.rice.edu (Michael Parks Swaim) writes:
>>  So you want God to give dimensions precise to 7 digits to bronze age
>>nomads, and expect them to deliver? That would be malicious. (I don't
>>think modern architectural designs are given with that sort of precision.)
>
>Precision? Oh I don't know. Seems like the stone fitting of the pyramids
>would fit that bill, it's not easy doing mortarless stone work you know,
>particulary large scale engineering projects designed to last thousands
>of years.
  Not the ones in Egypt. There's greater than 1% variation in the individual
blocks, and none of the pyramids have anything close to a perfectly square
base. They were experts, and didn't achieve the quality you're looking
for. Solomon the Wise, on the other hand, couldn't even do it on his own,
and had to call in outside expersts. I still think that you're asking 
too much.


-- 
Mike Swaim            | "101 Dalmations? Yeah I saw that."
swaim@owlnet.rice.edu | "You Did! REALLY? The same film?
Disclamer: I lie      | Let's stop driving! We must get out and jump
up and down and up and down and dance around and around!" Matt and Delerium
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: bast@wam.umd.edu (Jaguar)
Subject: Re: Santa Claus
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 03:14:35 GMT


Nicalaus.. A german version of 'santa"  was not always a 'nice guy'.
In the village in southern germany where my mom grew up, it was said
that he left swweets nuts and apples for good children.
And if you were bad, switches.
In the village two of the older men would dress up as nick and his helper
and go from house to house.
One year my uncle, who was quite a hell raiser in his teen years, 
had an unpleasent visit from nick.
It seems nick and his helper stuffed him into a sacvk, tied it off and
then draged it out into the woods and left him there.
(nmeedless to say, he got c back somehow as he is still alive today)
It made my mom quite frightened of Nichalaus fro quite a while.

This is also a town that takes the buisness of maypoles quite seriously.
Each town erects a maypole. 'attack teams' are sent out to destroy the
maypoles of other towns/villages and they go to great lengths to protect
thiers.
Ah the symbolisim of it....
Jaguar
From: post@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (David Post)
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1993 21:10:44 GMT
Subject: Re: Help with Songs...
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Fort Collins, CO, USA
Newsgroups: alt.pagan

Some of the lyrics commonly mentioned in this thread are available in
"Ritual Songs" done by the Colorado Midwives Association.

It was done acappella by members of the CMA ( including Cindee Grace ).

Includes:
I Am The Circle
We Are Sisters
We All Come From God
Woman I Am

David Post  davep@hpfcpp.fc.hp.com  hplabs!hpfcla!post
From: cenedra@cedar.circa.ufl.edu
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Oath of the Renunciates
Date: 13 Jan 93 04:06:26 GMT
Reply-To: CENEDRA@oak.circa.ufl.edu
Organization: Center for Instructional and Research Computing Activities

Someone requested a post of the Oath of the Renunciates, from the Darkover
novels of Marion Zimmer Bradley, so here it is. This is reprinted without
permission, but I hope she won't mind.


  Oath of the Renunciates

  From this day forth, I renounce the right to marry save as a freemate.
No man shall bind me 'di catenas' and I will dwell in no man's household as
a barragana.
  I swear that I am prepared to defend myself by force if I am attacked by
force, and that I shall turn to no man for protection.
  From this day forth I swear I shall never again be known by the name of
any man, be he father, guardian, lover, or husband, but simply and solely as
the daughter of my mother.
  From this day forth I swear I will give myself to no man save in my own
time and season and of my own free will, at my own desire; I will never earn
my bread as the object of any man's lust.
  From this day forth I swear I will bear no child to any man save for my
own pleasure and at my own time and choice; I will bear no child to any man
for house or heritage, clan or inheritance, pride or posterity; I swear that
I alone will determine rearing and fosterage of any child I bear, without
regard to any man's place, position, or pride.
  From this day forth I renounce allegiance to any family, clan, household,
warden, or liege lord, and take oath that I owe allegiance only to the laws
of the land as a free citizen must; to the kingdom, the crown, and the Gods.
  I shall appeal to man as of right, for protection, support, or succor; but
shall owe allegiance only to my oath-mother, to my sisters in the Guild and
to my employer for the season of my employment.
  And I further swear that the members of the Guild of Free Amazons shall be
to me, each and every one, as my mother, my sister, or my daughter, born of
one blood with me, and that no woman sealed by oath to the Guild shall appeal
to me in vain.
  From this moment, I swear to obey all the laws of the Guild of Free Amazons
and any lawful command of my oath-mother, the Guild members, or my elected
leader for the season of my employment. And if I betray any secret of the
Guild, or prove false to my oath, then I shall submit myself to the 
Guild-mothers for such discipline as they shall choose; and if I fail, then
may every woman's hand turn against me, let them slay me like an animal and
consign my body unburied to corruption and my soul to the mercy of the
Goddess.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There it is- enjoy! I hope this sparks an interesting and fruitful 
discussion.

                            Ce'Nedra
                            Cenedra@ufcc.ufl.edu   
Newsgroups: alt.pagan,talk.religion.misc
From: weaver@kuttner.sfc.sony.com (Eric Weaver)
Subject: Re: The meaning of "pagan"
Organization: SONY Advanced Video Technology Center San Jose, CA USA
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 23:35:43 GMT


In article <1ii275INN5b0@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>, ses2@po.CWRU.Edu (S. E. Stansfield) writes:
|> 
|> In a previous article, drake+@cs.cmu.edu (Drake) says:
|> >
|> >I know this because God has promised this in his Holy Scriptures, and
|> >God cannot lie.
|> 
|> If this is true, then how come his book says that pi = 3.0?
|> >

Aw, c'mon, it's within 5%...
;-}
-- 
Eric Weaver  Sony AVTC  677 River Oaks Pkwy, MS 35  SJ CA 95134  408 944-4904
& Chief Engineer, KFJC 89.7 Foothill College, Los Altos Hills CA 94022
From: mkkuhner@phylo.genetics.washington.edu (Mary K. Kuhner)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Help with Songs...
Date: 7 Jan 1993 22:37:47 GMT
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
NNTP-Posting-Host: phylo.genetics.washington.edu

In article <1ihft4INN324@bigboote.WPI.EDU> brenda@wpi.WPI.EDU (brenda) writes:

>Now, the question... are there any songs that all Pagans/Wiccans/Witches
>know?  at the end of the ritual, they all broke into song heartily, and me 
>and my friend were just standing there...  Are there any songs that are very
>popular that i could learn?

>brenda@wpi.wpi.edu    "One of the witnesses MUST not be telling us      

I don't have any way to teach you melodies, but here are the chants that
we jokingly call the Pagan Top Ten in Seattle:

We are the flow and we are the ebb;
We are the weavers, we are the web.
[alternate verse]
I am a woman, you are a man,
We join together, we heal this land.
*
She changes everything she touches, and
Everything she touches changes.
Change is; touch is;
Touch us, change us!  [Starhawk]
*
Hoof and horn, hoof and horn,
All that dies shall be reborn.
Vine and grain, vine and grain,
All that falls shall rise again.
*
We all come from the Goddess,
And to her we shall return
Like a drop of rain
Flowing to the ocean.
*
Isis, Astarte, Diana, Hecate,
Demeter, Kali, Inanna.
[There's also a Gods version but I don't know it.]
*
Dance, dance, wherever you may be;
For I am the Lord of the Dance, said he,
And I'll lead you all wherever you may be,
And I'll lead you all in the dance, said he.  [tune of Simple Gifts]
*
Wearing our long tail feathers as we fly,
Wearing our long tail feathers as we fly,
We circle around, we circle around
The boundaries of the earth.
*
Listen to the Lord and Lady 
call their children
in the moonlight.
*
Where I am is holy, holy is the ground
Forest mountain river, listen to the sound
Great Spirit circles all around me.
*
Can't stop the spirit
She is like a mountain
Old and strong, she goes 
On and on and on....


My CUUPs chapter is sponsoring a singer from the local pagan community
to lead a chanting and drumming workshop this month, so I hope to learn
some more.  All of these are lovely chants, but after a year or two one
would like to have more than ten!

Mary Kuhner mkkuhner@genetics.washington.edu
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: spl@ivem.ucsd.edu (Steve Lamont)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan,talk.religion.misc,alt.atheism,alt.slack
Subject: Re: God's math accuracy was The meaning of "pagan"
Date: 11 Jan 1993 14:36:10 GMT
Organization: University of Calif., San Diego/Microscopy and Imaging Resource
NNTP-Posting-Host: ivem.ucsd.edu

In article <1ir2kbINNes0@fido.asd.sgi.com> livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:
>Or more concisely, what is the difference between "word of God" and
>"vague mummblings of a pre-rational society"?

Tax exempt status.

							spl


-- 
Steve Lamont, SciViGuy -- (619) 534-7968 -- spl@szechuan.ucsd.edu
UCSD Microscopy and Imaging Resource/UCSD Med School/La Jolla, CA 92093-0608
"Personally, I don't care whether someone is cool enough to quote Doug
Gwyn--I only care whether Doug Gwyn is cool enough to quote." - Larry Wall
From: 76366.3514%CompuServe.COM@WUVMD.Wustl.Edu (Paul S.C. Suliin)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Ritual abuse Law
Date: 8 Jan 1993 09:30:38 -0600
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

If anyone has any information about this law, please contact me or
Paul!

Chris Carlisle
Vice President, Alliance for Magical and Earth Religions
C24884CC@wuvmd.bitnet

----------------------------Original message----------------------------
Chris,

I thought you'd be interested in the following quote from a recent AP newswire
story, concerning a series of new laws which have been passed in Illinois to
take effect this year.  The article mentioned laws on several subjects, but
this in particular caught my eye:

"Concern over demonic cults led the Legislature to create the new crimes of
Inducement to Commit Suicide and Ritualized Abuse of a Child (HB3633)"

I'm looking for more info on these.  I'll pass it along as soon as I know
more.

--Paul

Distribution:
  Chris Carlisle INTERNET:C24884CC@WUVMD.Wustl.Edu
Xref: sparky alt.pagan:15254 talk.religion.misc:25856 alt.atheism:25680 alt.slack:3665
From: spl@pitstop.ucsd.edu (Steve Lamont)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan,talk.religion.misc,alt.atheism,alt.slack
Subject: Re: God's math accuracy was The meaning of "pagan"
Date: 11 Jan 93 21:14:11 GMT
Organization: University of Calif., San Diego/Microscopy and Imaging Resource
NNTP-Posting-Host: pitstop.ucsd.edu

In article <root.726785937@spssig> adams@spss.com (Steve Adams) writes:
>joann@unixhub.SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Jo Ann Malina) writes:
>
>>In article <C0LzMu.Ju3@rice.edu> swaim@owlnet.rice.edu (Michael Parks Swaim) writes:
>>>In article <fXKMWZi@quack.sac.ca.us> pharvey@quack.sac.ca.us (Paul Harvey) writes:
>>>>In article <1993Jan8.192559.29023@radian.uucp> 
>>>>markbr%radian@natinst.com (markbr) writes:
>>>>>Aw, c'mon. 3 is perfectly good enough for a scientific approximation. The
>>>>>order of magnitude is even right!
>>>>
>>>>Exactly! As they say, one digit accuracy is close enough for God!
>>>  OK. I'll bite. How many digits of accuracy would make you happy?
>>
>>All of them, of course. Ought to be child's play for God, right?
>>(The number under discussion is pi, in case you've lost the thread.)
>
>Of course, you need an infinite amount of time to have Him tell you...

Much easier to ask the answer to Life, the Universe, and Everything.
That only takes 7.5 million years.

							spl
-- 
Steve Lamont, SciViGuy -- (619) 534-7968 -- spl@szechuan.ucsd.edu
UCSD Microscopy and Imaging Resource/UCSD Med School/La Jolla, CA 92093-0608
"Personally, I don't care whether someone is cool enough to quote Doug
Gwyn--I only care whether Doug Gwyn is cool enough to quote." - Larry Wall
From: u2d92@seq1.keele.ac.uk (MJ Gumbley)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Who changed Yule to Christmas, and when?
Date: 4 Jan 93 13:04:08 GMT
Organization: Keele University, England

Hello all,

  I was talking to a friend of mine about other religions recently, and he
stated that it was Pius I who decreed that December 25th should be the date
on which to celebrate Christmas, and that this decree was made in 428 AD
approximately.

  Is this accurate, and could any of you reccommend a good historical
account of the decree?

  Thanks all, Matt.

--
Matt J. Gumbley              || Still needs a good signature, not liking
u2d92@seq1.cc.keele.ac.uk    || any of his recent feeble improvements on:
University of Keele, England || Why can't _I_ think of a good signature?
From: ramona@xsoft.xerox.com
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Connections: perceptions depend on your belief systems
Date: 7 Jan 93 02:09:51 GMT
Organization: XSoft/Xerox, Palo Alto, Calif.

Did anyone see the episode of Connections on KQED last night (1/5)?
I missed the beginning, but what I saw immediately caught my interest.

A women was being acused of witchcraft and was burnt.  The show went on
to explain that the people at the time didn't see it as we would today.
They were happy because they were doing the "witch" a favor.  Now before
you start flaming....  Burke explained how what you see depends on your
existing belief and knowledge system.  The example he gave were objective
and convincing.  He started with optical illusions and went from there.

I think the program did a lot to enlighten people to be more open to 
alternative belief systems and the witch example seem most appropriate.

any other comments?

-ramona
ramona@xsoft.xerox.com
Newsgroups: alt.pagan