HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ss@tamarack16.cray.com (Sandra Swanson)
Subject: Help in choosing a VHF radio
Originator: ss@tamarack16
Keywords: Radio VHF
Organization: Cray Research, Inc.
Date: 12 Oct 92 10:57:15 CDT


We would like to upgrade the radio in our boat.  We are currently
using a hand-held, but would like something more powerful.  So we
are looking to purchase a permanently mounted 25 watt VHF.  We
already have a 1/2 wave 6db antenna on the boat.

Looking in the various catalogs one sees 25 watt radios priced from
$119 to $500+.  Some have scanning (is it useful and what about all
channel scanning vs. selectable scanning?), others don't.  Some have
microphone speakers & channel changing, others don't.

Could some of you netters that have had experience with VHF radios
please share your expertise?  What brands are best?  Most reliable?
Take punishment (both water [fresh] & pounding) and still work?

Also, are the speakers in most radios adequate or should we think about
a separage speaker closer to the helm?  I know with our hand-held we
have trouble hearing it over the engine noise.

Thanks in advance for sharing your knowledge.


<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Sandra Swanson   -   Software Publications
Cray Research, Inc. - ss@tamarack.cray.com
655F Lone Oak Drive
Eagan, MN     55121     -     612/683-5815
Newsgroups: rec.boats
From: mbr@bellcore.com (Mark Rosenstein)
Subject: Re: Nav lights for a sailboat (WAS: Nav lights quiz)
Reply-To: mbr@bellcore.com (Mark Rosenstein)
Organization: Bellcore, Morristown, NJ
	<26618@castle.ed.ac.uk>
Date: 7 Oct 92 11:56:46

In article <26618@castle.ed.ac.uk> erck03@castle.ed.ac.uk (John Wexler) writes:

   From: erck03@castle.ed.ac.uk (John Wexler)
   Date: 7 Oct 92 10:25:56 GMT

   In article <7OCT199200153914@reg.triumf.ca>,
   advax@reg.triumf.ca (A.Daviel) writes:

   |> .... and a strange arrangement that I have 
   |> never seen, for sailboats uner 20m, consisting of red, green and sternlights 
   |> together with a masthead all-round red over all-round green.

   The all-round red-over-green at the masttop is
   allowed for all sailing vessels of any length.  You are only likely to
   see it on large vessels. 
I always wondered why you don't see more of these. Is it complexity? Weight
aloft? Power consumption? Or is my model that the higher things are up,
the easier they are to see wrong?

Mark.

Newsgroups: rec.boats
From: gybeho@engin.umich.edu (John Senger)
Subject: Re: 5 sailing questions
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 92 13:53:15 EDT
Organization: University of Michigan Engineering, Ann Arbor

In article <1992Oct15.171532.17391@netcom.com> truher@netcom.com (Joel Burke Truher) writes:
>In article <BOWERS.92Oct14114008@rigel.dfrf.nasa.gov> bowers@rigel.dfrf.nasa.gov (Al Bowers) writes:
>>
>>Yes, wings assist on every point of sail, except dead downwind.  The
>>shape assists in the reduction of drag, and the shape also assists in
>>getting the lead down lower (making the boat less tender).  
>
>So is the wing just an endplate?  Does it produce any lift of its
>own or does it just block the flow around the bottom of the keel?
>
>Joel

For most winged keels, the wings do provide some lift when 
the vessel is travelling to windward.  However, they are
most effective when used on vessels that are constrained
in their draft, like the old 12-meters.  If a boat is not
constrained, it is usually better to have a deep fin keel
with some sort of bulb at the bottom, instead of a shorter
keel with wings.


-- 
-- 

John Senger
Internet: gybeho@caen.engin.umich.edu
From: advax@reg.triumf.ca (A.Daviel)
Newsgroups: rec.boats
Subject: Re: Butane on Powerboats?
Date: 13 Oct 1992 16:24 PDT
Organization: TRIUMF: Tri-University Meson Facility
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: reg.triumf.ca
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    

In article <Bvv8q2.LuH@news.udel.edu>, mike@ravel.udel.edu (Michael James Porter) writes...
>We're trying to decide between a single burner alcohol stove and a
>butane stove.  
> 
>Is butane lighter than air?  How well does it heat compared to alcohol?
>How dangerous is it?
> 
>Any info or experiences would be appreciated.
> 
As pointed out in another followup, it is heavier than air and  about as 
dangerous as propane.

My boat had a butane stove in Britain (butane is sold as Calor Gas there, and 
as far as I remember, propane is very rare). When I brought it to Canada I 
couldn't find anyone selling butane (well, I didn't try an industrial gases 
place...), so I converted to propane. The manual for the stove gave 
recommended operating pressures for both gases, so I just had to adjust the 
regulator a bit. The only annoying thing is that my cylinder compartment 
(vented overboard) is sized for a 10lb Calor Gas cylinder, and isn't big 
enough for the 12lb propane, so I have to use a 5lb one. (I'm guessing the 
numbers here, but I have one of those itty-bitty cylinders that costs more 
than the regular 20lb ones..)

I'm curious as to the availability of butane where you come from.

--
 Andrew Daviel, Vancouver, Canada
Newsgroups: rec.boats
From: fortner@hal.eel.ufl.edu (Dave Fortner)
Subject: Re: "OMC Sea Drives"
Organization: University of Florida
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 92 16:44:35 GMT

In article <1555@niktow.canisius.edu> pavlov@niktow.canisius.edu (Greg Pavlov) writes:
>
>   Another power-related question:  I keep running into boats powered by
>   "OMC sea drives".  I've noticed that these boats are usually priced
>   somewhat lower than identical ones with i/o's or "regular" outboards.
>   Had one dealer tell me that people distrust them.  Would any of you
>   know something about them, what problems may exist, etc ?  To me, they
>   appear to be integrated bracket/outboard combinations with some additional
>   gear that, I would assume, is a mechanism for turning/tilting the 
>   outboards themselves ?  Any info would be appreciated.
>
In our area (Cape Canaveral, FL) this is the prefered outboard and
usually fetchs more at resale time. The only problem anybody I
know has had is that the operator needs to hose off the engine
after each SW use. The engine sits closer to the water and some
gets up into the cowling area.

Dave Fortner
Fortner-D@3mail.ksc.nasa.gov

Go Miami Dolphins

Usual Disclaimers Apply
From: dudley@treefort.Corp.Sun.COM (Dudley Gaman)
Newsgroups: rec.boats
Subject: Motoring into a slip
Summary: Back off, rag head
Date: 12 Oct 92 23:52:59 GMT
Organization: Invictus
NNTP-Posting-Host: treefort.corp.sun.com

All this talk about sailing into a slip got me to thinking that maybe I'd better
practice motoring into my slip in case my sails ever broke down.  So, last Saturday,
after it was dark (so nobody would recognize me) I motored into a neighboring marina
(I didn't want to hit someone's boat I'd have to see later) and practiced getting into
and out of vacant slips.  I practiced doing it forward and backward, practiced doing
tight turns between the fingers, I even used the pump-out station to empty my holding
tank.  I did all this by myself, without hitting another boat.  You know something?
Backing into a slip is a lot easier when you're under power.

Dudley
Invictus, C-27
Pete's Harbor
Redwood City, CA
From: greg@netcom.com (Greg Bullough)
Newsgroups: rec.boats
Subject: Re: Tricky docking
Date: 8 Oct 92 00:42:18 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)

In article <1992Oct7.194635.15889@mprgate.mpr.ca> kell@mprgate.mpr.ca (Dave Kell) writes:
>
>In the spirit of John F. Hughes' "hypothetical" problems, I have one from
>real life.
>
>This summer I managed to screw up a docking manouvre and hit another boat
>for the first (and hopefully last) time.  No real damage except my ego...
>
>I was attempting to dock on a club float which is usually affected by 
>tidal currents.  The current is in line with the dock, and this time the
>wind was against the current, at about 15 kts.  The current runs from
>0 to about 1 knot here, always the same direction.
>
>Here goes the ASCII art:
>
>
>       DDDDDD  B
>       DDDDDD BBB       |
>       DDDDDD BBB       |  Current
>       DDDDDD BBB       |
>       DDDDDD BBB       V              The DDD is the dock
>       DDDDDD BBB                      The groups of BBB are other boats
>       DDDDDD                          The ... are my route in to the dock
>       DDDDDD
>       DDDDDD
>       DDDDDD
>       DDDDDD
>       DDDDDD
>       DDDDDD       .
>       DDDDDD BBB    .
>       DDDDDD BBB    .
>       DDDDDD BBB     .
>       DDDDDD BBB     .
>       DDDDDD BBB      .              /|\
>       DDDDDD BBB      .               |  Wind
>       DDDDDD  B        .              |
>       DDDDDD           .              |
>
>
>The problem was to dock in the open spot on the dock, which was only
>a bit longer than Covivant (maybe 6 feet extra).  People on the dock
>assured us there was room for our boat.
 
Don't try to parallel park a boat like a car.
 
Instead, approach at a right angle to the dock, on the side of the
opening OPPOSITE from the direction your engine "walks" the stern
in reverse (twin engines have an advantage). Send someone over the
bow with a dockline, or get someone on the dock to secure the line
to a cleat which is forward of where you want the bow to be. You
can come in in the center of the space, too, because the dock 
crew can horse you around.   
 
Once the line is secure on a cleat (but not locked), you can gently
reverse. The tensiono on the line will prevent you from backing down,
and if you figure the length of line correctly, the stern will walk
over, and the boat will drop right into the place.
 
This works regardless of wind and current.
 
Greg
From: root@logiconultra.com
Newsgroups: rec.boats
Subject: Testing...sorry
Date: 16 Oct 92 23:52:30 GMT
Organization: Logicon_Ultrasystems
Originator: root@stealth.logiconultra.com

Testing...sorry
Newsgroups: rec.boats
From: mwhhlaw!tim (Timothy E. Hollingsworth)
Subject: Re: Bareboating
Reply-To: uunet!mwhhlaw!tim
Organization: Martin Wade Hartley & Hollingsworth
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 12:24:06 GMT

In article <Bw2JnG.CEH@fc.hp.com> billa@fc.hp.com (Bill Arnold) writes:
> T. Scott Thompson (thompson@atlas.socsci.umn.edu) wrote:
> : zba@altair.selu.edu writes:
> : 
> Has anyone ever bare-boated from another location
> : >such as Bahamas or Belize?
> : 
> : >Any suggestions welcome!
> : 
> The comments about Bimini were interesting and worth considering.
> 
> You might want to bareboat out of March Harbor on the island of
> Abaco.  Lots of sheltered, very shallow water.  As well, you can
> cross the islands and snorkel in the deep Atlantic. 
> 
> Overall, I had a very pleasant time there.  Lots of interesting
> things to do ashore as well.

I second the Abacos as a great spot.  Try
Sunsail at 800 - 327-2276 for more info.
I've chartered from them and they are first class.
or 
Abaco Bahamas Charters at 800 626-5690
I haven't used personally, but they have been around a long time.

--
Tim Hollingsworth
From: ben@hpcvra.cv.hp.com (Benjamin Ellsworth)
Newsgroups: rec.boats
Subject: Re: 5 sailing questions
Date: 15 Oct 92 15:53:50 GMT
Article-I.D.: hpcvra.26100032
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Co., Corvallis, OR, USA


> sailing question 1
>
> ...[rudder]...

I've never put brass right next to aluminum like that, so I don't know
if it will work.  My concern would be electrolysis.

> sailing question 3
>
> Being pretty new at this, I'm quite confused about how to tune a rig.

Firstly ;-) "tuning a rig" usually means adjusting the standing
rigging, as opposed to trimming the sails.  Do you want advice on
shroud and stay tension and mast rake, or do you want advice on sail
shape and halyard and sheet tension?  You'll get gobs and gobs of
advice on either.

In my opinion, most of the advice is to be taken skeptically.  I've
heard "keep 'em flat."  I've heard "keep 'em full."  I've heard "keep
'em twisty."  All for the same conditions and all from equally
authoritative sources (sail makers).  I'm sure that you will hear from
folks who are adamant about their solution.  At the risk of proffering
sailing heresy, my suggestion is to try to understand the advice and
then actually try it on the boat.  Use what works for you and *keep
experimenting!*  You should get a knot meter just for this type of
thing.

Go out and try different things.  Take notes and see what you learn.
Do some science.  See what the people who beat you do that is different
from what you do.  Try it.  Take notes.  Study your notes.  See if you
can find what works best for you and your boat/sails.

> ...  What's a good book to peruse to learn the basics of tuning a
> marconi rig?

My favorite is _Sail_Power_ by Ross Wallace.

> sailing question 4
>
> ... Is there a good place (e.g., a particular issue of _Sailing_) to
> get a description of the prepared surface of that 12 m America's Cup
> boat?

The best write-up that I saw was in an issue of "NASA Tech Briefs."  I
used to have the issue.  I think that it was mid-1985-ish.  There is a
sailboat on the cover.  The short summary is that the material induces
vortices parallel to the hull, right at the surface, and this improves
flow attachment and reduces turbulence.  I believe that Connors only
covered 30% of his hull with this material.

> sailing question 5
>
> ...[winged keel]...

There is nearly as much folklore on keels as there is on sails.  My
understanding is that wings are primary desirable for shoal draft and
as "rule beaters."  A well designed fin keel of equivalent weight will
always perform better (if the water is deep enough :-).  Around here,
the common wisdom is that the fin versions of both the Santana 20 and
the Capri 22 will out perform their winged sisters.

---

Ben
Newsgroups: rec.boats
From: swist@doodly.mcc.dec.com (Jim Swist)
Subject: Re: "OMC Sea Drives"
Reply-To: swist@took.enet.dec.com
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 15:12:17 GMT



>What are the advantages/disadvantages of a bracket-mount over a
>conventionally mounted outboard?

To the best of my knowledge..

   bracket advantages

      - allows closed transom for added seaworthyness 
      - more space in transom area for seats, lockers, etc.
      - quieter

   bracket disadvantages

      - expensive
      - adds 3' to LOA of boat, increasing docking costs and availability
      - harder to work on engine in water
      - can cause handling problems hanging the thrust point so far back
      - heavy

   mixed opinion

      - performance
      - fuel economy
   

Newsgroups: rec.boats
From: keith@iscp.Bellcore.COM (Keith Hawkins)
Subject: Re: Repowering Sailboats
Reply-To: keith@iscp.Bellcore.COM (Keith Hawkins)
Organization: Bell Communications Research (Bellcore)
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 92 17:35:24 GMT

In article <26332@oasys.dt.navy.mil>, scfisher@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Steven
Fisher) writes:
|> I am thinking about replacing the Atomic 4 (aka Atomic Bomb)
|> in my boat with a diesel with about 27 hp. I've looked at
|> Westerbeake, Yanmar, and Volvo-Penta, but I don't know which
|> is more reliable, or about parts costs and availability.
|> 
|> If you have some knowledge or experience with these or other
|> manufacturers, could you please comment on them?
|> 
|> -steve


As far as parts go, Yanmar has a large established base and
large market share of the marine diesel market.  So Yanmar
parts are widely available.  I don't know enough about
all the various manufacturers in order to make a quality
comparison.
Newsgroups: rec.boats
From: jfh@cs.brown.edu (John F. Hughes)
Subject: Re: Backing up
Organization: Brown University Department of Computer Science
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 18:51:05 GMT

In article <1992Oct14.134745.29686@phri.nyu.edu> roy@mchip00.med.nyu.edu (Roy Smith) writes:
>keith@iscp.Bellcore.COM (Keith Hawkins) writes:

>> One of the guys in the marina said that was normal, that sailboats seem
>> to back in one direction better than the other.

>[Roy gives a phenomenological, but not mechanistic, explanation]
>	Anyway, this is usually worse in reverse than in forward, again for
>reasons I don't fully understand.  Part of the problem seems to be that in
>order to cancel out the sideways force in forward, props on sailboats are
>often set slightly off-center, or canted off to one side.  The problem with
>this is that it exacerbates the problem in reverse.  I guess they figure
>that you spend 99+% of your motoring time in forward, so they should
>optimize it for that.  I think the problem tends to be worse in sailboats
>than in powerboats, but I'm not sure why; it might have something to do with
>the fact that sailboats tend to have slow-turning props.

*Part* of the problem is caused by the fact that the shaft in a sailboat
is almost always not horizontal, but is instead canted down as you move
fore to aft. To see why this is a problem, imagine a very extreme case, in
which the shaft is actually vertical :-). Clearly, as you revv the engine,
it attempts to lift the transom out of the water. But forget about that
part. If the shaft, seen from  behind (or below, in this extreme case)
is turning clockwise, then the boat will, in natural response to it, want
to turn counterclockwise, i.e., will want to turn to port. OK. Now
turn your variable-direction prop shaft a little bit---the engine is
lightly forward of the blades. Clearly the turn-to-port effect is reduced,
but not eliminated. In fact, if you continue changing the angle of the
shaft relative to horizontal, you'll see that when then engine is exactly
*below* the prop (OK, so it's not plausible), the counter-rotation effect
will cause the boat to want to turn to starboard. Somewhere between the
two shaft positions is the one that makes the boat not want to
counter-rotate at all. Guess what---that ideal shaft angle is almost
certainly *not* the one at which your shaft is mounted. It's also
probably not exactly horizontal, because of various assymmetries in the
situation: water pressure at the bottom of the prop being different than 
at the top, hull shape down there being different, the prop is left- or 
right- handed, the moon is full, the boom is sitting to starboard, 
automatic or manual shift, race, creed, color, national origin, merril, 
lynch, pierce, fenner and smith....all these things enter into it. But 
the main point is that there is some effect, which can be pretty 
substantial, due to the sloping of the shaft. A similar thing in 
helicopters is called Dissymetry of Lift, I believe.
   Anyhow, Chapman's gives a pretty good explanation on this one. Check it
out.

-John
From: root@logiconultra.com
Newsgroups: rec.boats
Subject: Test
Date: 15 Oct 92 18:01:15 GMT
Distribution: ca
Organization: Logicon_Ultrasystems
Originator: root@stealth.logiconultra.com

This is a test ... sorry
From: paul@ee.rochester.edu (Paul Osborne)
Newsgroups: rec.boats
Subject: Help, strange tiller action
Date: 16 Oct 92 15:14:19 GMT
Organization: Univ of Rochester, College of Engineering and Applied Science


	I'm hoping that a few will take a shot at this one, I'm out of
	theorys. Sailing on a friends Venture 224 last week, I noticed
	that starting at about 3 knots the tiller started to oscilate
	or shake slowly from port to starbd. As the boat picked up more 
	speed this continued and the freq. incresed. This is not a violent
	movement but is very annoying. 

	Second question. One his main the luff has slugs for ease of 
	up and down. But the foot is bolt rope. When he has to reef
	the tyes are around the sail and the boom. Sail shape remains
	good. He asked me why do all the books say not to tye around 
	boom.                  

	Any and all comments welcome, Thanks
Newsgroups: rec.boats
From: finns@hal.nta.no (Finn Stafsnes FBA)
Subject: Re: Backing up
Organization: Norwegian Telecom Research
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 92 13:38:47 GMT

In article <ldod15INNs9g@exodus.Eng.Sun.COM>, dudley@treefort.Corp.Sun.COM (Dudley Gaman) writes:
|> In article <1992Oct13.180646.27416@porthos.cc.bellcore.com> keith@iscp.Bellcore.COM (Keith Hawkins) writes:
|> >
|> >The other day I was having trouble backing up
|> >with my sailboat and turning at the same time.
|> >
|> Keith,
|> 
|> You'll probably get some technical explanation about the direction the prop is
|> turning and lower blade being in denser water. 

This is a common explanation and it is a good one because it makes it easy to
figure out which way your prop will go. If the lowest part of the prop is moving
to port it will drag your stern to starboard.
However, the difference in the density of the water at the top and bottom part of
any normal prop is so small that the effects due to different density is
negligible.
The fenomenon was explained in an article in Practical Boat Owner (UK) a few
years ago. A propeller rotating will produce a vortex in fron and/or behind it.
If this happends in deep, unrestricted water (or air), nothing happends. However,
if the prop is near any boudaries for the water (ie surface or bottom) the
boudaries will disturb the symmetry of the vortex, causing the vortex to pull to
one or other direction.
According to this explanation the effekt is exaggerated if the prop is close to
the surface or close to the bottom, but reduced almost to nothing with equal 
distance to both. If the prop is closer to the bottom than to the surface the
effect will be reversed.
I think I still have the article from PBO if anybody need a reference.

Finn
From: tarkkone@klaava.Helsinki.FI (Lauri Tarkkonen)
Newsgroups: rec.boats
Subject: Re: dingy bottoms
Date: 12 Oct 92 00:12:20 GMT
Organization: University of Helsinki

In <1992Oct11.175823.9797@phri.nyu.edu> roy@mchip00.med.nyu.edu (Roy Smith) writes:

>EPLUS17@vmd.cso.uiuc.edu (Richard Engelbrecht-Wiggans) writes:
>>1.  Drip detergent into the water just in front of the bow.  Based on
>>my (recent) experiments in the bathtub, this might leave a film of detergent
>>on the surface of the water long enough for the boat to sail over it and
>>get some benifit.

>	IYRU rule 63(a) says, "A yacht shall not eject or release from a
>container any sustance (such as polymer), the purpose of which is, or could
>be, to reduce the fircitional resistance of her surface by altering the
>character of the flow of water inside the boundary layer.

I think that the detergent uses like 'paint' would not fall under this rule,
but if it applied from a bottle it certainly will.

>	Rule 63(b) also prohibits "specially textured hull surfaces".  I'm
>not 100% sure what they're getting at, but I suspect that what David Spencer
>suggested, i.e. making the middle third of his bottom rough to induce
>non-laminar flow, would be illegal.

I think that this is harder, usually sailors try to get a smooth surface,
but one man's smooth is another man's rough. 

When I was racing dinghies in the mid seventies those of us who tried to
get the bottoms, centerboards and rudders smooth used some graphite paint.
It was especially ymortant to work on the finns.  Jonh Oakley (European 
Champion in Flying Dutchman) wrote in his book something like thiss..
after the 13th or 14th application of paint and wet sanding the surface 
of your centerboard starts to look acceptable....

I never managed to have time for more than 5 applications. :-(.

- Lauri Tarkkonen