HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: iba@kronos.arc.nasa.gov (Wayne Iba)
Subject: Re: The Fat Lady has belched
Organization: NASA/ARC Information Sciences Division
Distribution: ba
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 20:49:58 GMT


[I wrote earlier:]
>>But I'm tired of people getting rich at the public's expense (whether
>>baseball, water subsidies, or something else).

fred_s@earwax.pei.com (Fred Scott) writes:

>What I am trying say is that *IF* you *REALLY* don't like this, then do some-
>thing about the system in general.  Bob Lurie - or his predessesor - is now
>getting rich at the public's expense, albeit in another locality.  So if your
>grand statement about being "tired of people getting rich at the public's
>expense" is, in fact, accurate, you've actually failed *MISERABLY*, haven't
>you?

Actually, I didn't say my goal was to stop people getting rich ....  
If it was, I would agree that that goal had/is/will fail.

Instead, I am just tired of the situation.  I'll do what I can to
reverse it when the opportunity presents itself but I don't
have much hope in actually changing things -- especially in today's 
political climate.

>Or is it possible that Bob Lurie making money off taxpayer money is not at
>all what you're worried about?  When I hear arguments like yours,  I tend to
>suspect that you're just rationalizing voting against a tax which would not
>directly benefit you.

This is a fair concern, and I don't mind you questioning my motives
(particularly since Fred bothered to think about what I was trying 
to communicate).  In fact, this allegation is not correct in this case.
I would be opposed to many similar measures even if they benefited me
directly.  Likewise, I would support some measures that did not benefit 
me at all but raised my personal taxes.  

--wayne
From: rickc@wrigley.corp.sgi.com (Richard Casares)
Newsgroups: ba.sports
Subject: Re: SAVE THE GIANTS
Date: 13 Aug 92 16:35:47 GMT
Distribution: ba
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc.

In article <a=5mtdf.bilan@netcom.com>, bilan@netcom.com (Steve Bilan)
writes:
|> jbehlen@ntmtv.UUCP (John Behlen) writes:
 
|> >None of the networks will bid as high as CBS did
|> >($1 Billion) when the current broadcasting contract expires.  The last
|> >thing Major League Baseball needs is for the networks to have
|> disgruntled
|> >advertisers.
|> 
|> That would make CBS (who really should be thanked for bringing us
|> baseball
|> telecasts, even if it hurt them) and the future of baseball telecasts
|> the
|> other innocent victims of the boycott.


Please.  CBS did anything but help the game.
They clearly overbid for something in order to gain a monopoly
on network baseball.  Previously we had a game-of-the-week on NBC
with excellent announcers and monday night baseball on ABC.
CBS forced out the competition so they could show NO games, maybe
twelve games during the season, just so they could milk the fans
into thinking network baseball coverage was a big event.  Then when
October came around, the bonanza would begin.

All CBS did was spoil major league baseball players and trick them into 
thinking their real worth was 3 or 4 times the actual.
Now with teams hurting from bidding wars started by all the CBS
money burning a hole in their pockets, baseball is looking at
a frightening future.

-- 
+========================================================================+
| Rick Casares					Silicon Graphics	 |	
| cubfan@wrigley.corp.sgi.com			2011 N. Shoreline Blvd   |
| "Just wait till next year."                 	Mountain View, CA 94039  |
+========================================================================+
Xref: sparky ba.sports:441 alt.tennis:7
From: sef@Veritas.COM (Sef Kloninger)
Newsgroups: su.sports,ba.sports,alt.tennis
Subject: Still looking for tennis group
Date: 12 Aug 92 22:40:54 GMT
Distribution: ba
Organization: VERITAS Software

Hi all-

I posted a similar notice a while ago...

I am a Stanford student living in the area for the summer.  I'm
looking for a group (or at least a few individuals) who would 
like to play tennis.  Mostly for entertainment and exercise, not
hard-core playing...

I consider myself a low-intermediate player.  Please respond (by
mail) if you know of a group in Palo Alto, Mountain View, or Stanford
areas.

thanks again.
sef
-- 
------------------
Sef Kloninger
Veritas Software                        Stanford University
sef@veritas.com                         sef@cs.stanford.edu
Newsgroups: ba.sports
From: snichols@adobe.com (Sherri Nichols)
Subject: Re: The Fat Lady has belched
Organization: Adobe Systems Incorporated
Distribution: ba
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 15:59:59 GMT

In article <1992Aug10.235523.5527@leland.Stanford.EDU> claudius@leland.Stanford.EDU (Nelson Lu) writes:
>The *stadium* itself would definitely be a money loser; this is why a privately
>financed stadium will almost certain be a disaster.  However, you are evading
>my point that the stadium will bring in business and taxes for the city.

I have yet to see any credible evidence that using public money to build a
stadium for a major league baseball team results in a net gain in revenues
for the city.  I'd be very interested to see any such study you know about.

Sherri Nichols
snichols@adobe.com
Newsgroups: ba.sports
From: jbehlen@ntmtv.UUCP (John Behlen)
Subject: Re: SAVE THE GIANTS
Originator: jbehlen@astro
Organization: Northern Telecom Incorporated
Distribution: ba
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 17:22:37 GMT

From article <a=5mtdf.bilan@netcom.com>, by bilan@netcom.com (Steve Bilan):
> jbehlen@ntmtv.UUCP (John Behlen) writes:
>>
>>Also, BOYCOTT THE SPONSORS OF MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL - ESPECIALLY ANHEUSER
>>BUSH (Budweiser, Bud Dry, Bud Light, Michelob, Michelob Dry, Michelob
>>Light, Pilsner).
> 
> This is gross misuse of a civic right (for lack of a better term).
> Boycotts should be used for meaningful causes like injustice and unfairness
> by companies.  If we were to use the logic you were suggesting, we would
> go around boycotting everything that we didn't like.  Should we boycott
> Coca-cola just because we got bad service at McDonalds?
> 
> Also, why should we boycott, and hurt, Anheuser Bush when they didn't have
> anything to do with this sale.  If you going to boycott anybody, stop being
> a wimp and boycott the people that are really responsible; ie.. Bob Lurie
> and the city of St Petersburg.

The aproval of the Giants sale by the Major League Baseball would be an
injustice to many of us (see my next post).  As we have come to find out the
hard way MLB is a business.  To boycott Bob Lurie or the Giants would not do
any good, he is most likely bound by contract (good faith) to approve the sale
at the owners meeting.  While it may seem unfair to boycott Anheuser Bush, it
is the only way we can show MLB that we do not approve of the proposed sale.
Major League Baseball ultimately earns most of it revenue from us the consumers
who purchase the goods and services of the sponsors of MLB.  And as they say
"money talks."

Thanks,

John Behlen
SAVE THE GIANTS COMMITTEE
Newsgroups: ba.sports
From: fred_s@earwax.pei.com (Fred Scott)
Subject: Re: The Fat Lady has belched
Organization: Protocol Engines Incorporated
Distribution: ba
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 05:51:01 GMT

In article <1992Aug12.014156.11497@kronos.arc.nasa.gov> iba@kronos.arc.nasa.gov (Wayne Iba) writes:
>My problem is with labeling people one has never met as "idiots"
>because they chose to vote against the stadium.

I sympathize with this.  No one should be labeled an idiot for his honest
convictions.  The other guy was wrong to say that.

>I certainly recognize that many people associate intangibles with a park and
>having NL BB nearby.  I have no objection to them making such associations.
>But I would also disagree that baseball owners' profits (at public expense)
>are incidental.  That they make a profit is not a problem; that I
>(unwillingly) pay for it is, however.  Why are baseball fans not
>willing to pay what it costs to keep it in the area?

I do not know why owners find it easier to negotiate a sweetheart ballpark
deal with the local government than to simply raise prices for a ticket, which
I take it, is what you're suggesting.  However, this is fairly universal
experience, so I assume the motivation is strong.  The point is, this is how
the baseball business works.

>I will not be contacting my congressperson; I don't have a crusade
>against baseball.

No, not in general, perhaps.  But your reasoning suggests that your *real*
problem is that you just don't like how this business is conducted.  Fine -
but defeating the local ballpark proposal does work to that end.  At least,
not much.  There are more than enough other communities willing to fund a
ballpark at public expense and at about the same ratio of public-to-team-owner
contributions.  You (and other like you) have, however, managed to punish the
local fans with your flawed reasoning concerning this issue.

>But I'm tired of people getting rich at the public's expense (whether
>baseball, water subsidies, or something else).

What I am trying say is that *IF* you *REALLY* don't like this, then do some-
thing about the system in general.  Bob Lurie - or his predessesor - is now
getting rich at the public's expense, albeit in another locality.  So if your
grand statement about being "tired of people getting rich at the public's
expense" is, in fact, accurate, you've actually failed *MISERABLY*, haven't
you?

The only *real* way to affect the system is to somehow legislate against
sweetheart ballpark deals in general.  Presumedly, this would have to be done
on the federal level.  I don't know if that's possible or reasonable, but it's
the only rational answer to your objection.

Or is it possible that Bob Lurie making money off taxpayer money is not at
all what you're worried about?  When I hear arguments like yours,  I tend to
suspect that you're just rationalizing voting against a tax which would not
directly benefit you.

Fred
From: 6623630@LMSC5.IS.LMSC.LOCKHEED.COM
Newsgroups: ba.sports
Subject: Re: Looking for a good Judo club
Date: 18 Aug 92 20:15:59 GMT
Organization: Lockheed Missiles & Space Company, Inc.

The best in the South Bay Area is the San Jose Buddhist Judo
Club.
From: chuq@Apple.COM (Chuq Von Rospach)
Newsgroups: ba.sports
Subject: Re: The Fat Lady has belched
Date: 22 Aug 92 05:47:26 GMT
Distribution: ba
Organization: I is a writur

ENVIRON@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU writes:
>In article <1992Aug12.155959.8055@adobe.com>, snichols@adobe.com (Sherri
>Nichols) says:
>>I have yet to see any credible evidence that using public money to build a
>>stadium for a major league baseball team results in a net gain in revenues
>>for the city.  I'd be very interested to see any such study you know about.

The City of St. Petersburg has said that their market research shows that
moving the Giants from Phoenix to Florida -- just for spring training -- is
work $20 million or so to the local economy. Imagine scaling that to a full
season.


The numbers I've seen bandied about are in the $100 to $200 million range in
economic boost, but I don't have a study to back them up (right now).
They've been in the papers, though.

You know, I've been lucky. I've been out of town the last couple of weeks
(still am, actually. Southern Oregon beat Eugene 5-3 in extra innings about
30 minutes ago) so I got to miss most of the screaming, except what the out
of town press has been writing. 

Congrats, San Francisco. In every city we've been in the last two weeks that
has a team in it, the papers are nearly unanimous: they all think we're
idiots for letting such a good thing wander away. Here in Eugene they're
working together to rebuild the stadium into something to be really proud
of. Talking to the folks who are willing to look to the future is both
awe-inspiring and depressing. I'm looking forward to seeing the new Miles
field, as well as the new Derks field in Salt Lake when they get it done (go
see the old Derks field while you can. Condemned bleachers or no, it's got
the most beautiful skyline in minor leagues). 

Some folks can get it done. Some folks whine and complain. St. Pete is one.
San Francisco is another. You make the call.

(There was a GREAT line in the Calgary paper about the issue, relating it
back to the time when  the Giants left New York. Someone asked the owner how
they could move the team and take it away from the kids of New York. The
owner simply noted that if he'd seen the fathers at the park a little more
often, he wouldnt have had to. If San Francisco had supported the team in
the first place, they wouldn't be trying to save it now. Waiting until the
boxes are being packed is the wrong way to show you care. I'm looking
forward to seeing my team in their new home, and the fans who are looking
forward to watching them).


-- 
Chuq "IMHO" Von Rospach, ESD Support & Training (DAL/AUX) =+= Member, SFWA
  chuq@apple.com | GEnie: MAC.BIGOT | ALink:CHUQ =+= Editor, OtherRealms
	A real SF writur with stories in ALTERNATE KENNEDYS and THE 
	  FURTHER ADVENTURES OF BATMAN, in better bookstores now!

          Painted emblems of a race, all accurst in days of yore,
       Each from his accustomed place steps into the world once more.
Newsgroups: ba.sports
From: jbehlen@ntmtv.UUCP (John Behlen)
Subject: More Giants
Originator: jbehlen@astro
Organization: Northern Telecom Incorporated
Distribution: ba
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 17:47:17 GMT

I started the SAVE THE GIANTS COMMITTEE two days after Bob Lurie announced he
was selling the team.  Since then, concerned fans have called and written me
asking how they can help.  It is very difficult for us to express our grief to
non-believers, to non-Giants fans.  I received this letter the other day.  I
was given permission to reprint it here.  Perhaps this will help non-believers
to understand.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

John:

My name is Bob Sorrells.  I'm 42-years-old.  I remember the first time I saw
the Giants.  I was 12-yars-old.  It was the 1962 World Series.  My Dad took
me to see every home game in that series.  To this day,  I'll never forget
one play - one memorable play.

The Giants had the tying run at third base.  Willie Mc Covey was up to bat.
He hit a line drive that came just one inch from alluding the glove of the
Yankees second baseman, Bobbie Richardson.  That one inch cost the Giants the
World Series.

I also remember a time not so long ago.  It was the 1989 National League 
Playoffs between the Giants and the Cubs.  I was listening to Hank Greenwald
calling the Cubs final out.  "Ground ball to Thompson; over to Clark.  Twenty-
seven years of waiting is finally over!"  The Giants, my "Gyros," had finally
won the pennant.  How sweet it was.

Lately, I've thought a lot about the Giants.  I've thought about what they've
meant to me.  They're so much more than just a collection of memories.  I
grew up watching the Giants.  In a way, they were kind of my companions.  I
could always count on them to be there, at the "stick," at a certain time and
on a certain day.  If we let the Giants leave for Tampa Bay, all we'll ever
have is memories.

Sincerely,

Bob Sorrells

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Please help try to save the Giants.  Copy the letter below, and give them
to as many people as possible, sign them and mail them to the Commissioner.

Thanks

John Behlen

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Fay Vincent
Commissioner of Baseball
350 Park Avenue
New York, New York 10022

(212) 339-7800 - Voice
(212) 355-0007 - Fax

Commissioner Vincent:

Keep the Giants in San Francisco.  Give local ownership a chance.  The
San Francisco Bay Area is the fourth largest advertising market in the
country.  To ensure this gets your immediate attention, I am boycotting
the sponsors of Major League Baseball - especially the the following
Anheuser Busch products:

* Budweiser
* Bud Dry
* Bud Light
* Michelob
* Michelob Dry
* Michelob Light
* Pilsner

Sincerely,




cc: Anheuser Busch

St. Louis - Corporate Headquarters		Distributor
One Busch Place					3932 Budweiser Court
St. Louis, MO 63318				Stockton, CA 95205
(314) 577-2193 - Voice				(209) 931-5661 - Voice
(314) 577-3056 - Fax				(209) 943-3168 - Fax
From: kubey@summit.wpd.sgi.com (Ken Kubey)
Newsgroups: ba.sports
Subject: Save the Giants
Date: 13 Aug 92 18:02:00 GMT
Distribution: ba
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc., Mountain View, CA


  Baseball Fans,
  If you want the Giants to stay in the Bay Area, please print the 
  following coupon (copied without permission from page A-10 of
  the 8/13/92 edition of The San Francisco Chronicle), and fill it out.
  The Chrinicle will send copies to Fay and the owners for you.

  Mail this coupon to:

  SAVE THE GIANTS 
  San Francisco Chronicle
  901 Mission Street
  San Francisco, CA 94103-2988


----------------------------- Cut Here --------------------------------------


  TO FAY VINCENT AND THE TEAM OWNERS:

  I want the Giants to stay in the Bay Area because: ________________________


  ___________________________________________________________________________

  ___________________________________________________________________________

  ___________________________________________________________________________

  ___________________________________________________________________________

  ___________________________________________________________________________

  ___________________________________________________________________________

  ___________________________________________________________________________

                                            Sincerely,

                                            ________________________________
From: zappala@Xerox.com (Daniel Zappala)
Newsgroups: ba.sports
Subject: Wanted: Giants tickets for Friday's game
Date: 20 Aug 92 20:00:39 GMT
Reply-To: zappala@Xerox.com (Daniel Zappala)
Organization: Xerox PARC


Does anyone have season tickets or other lower box tickets they aren't
using for Friday's Giants game?  Let's negotiate...

I'd like to see a Giants game close up for once.


Daniel
From: ENVIRON@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Newsgroups: ba.sports
Subject: Re: The Fat Lady has belched
Date: 13 Aug 92 17:05:58 GMT
 <1992Aug10.224541.14404@kronos.arc.nasa.gov>
 <1992Aug10.235523.5527@leland.Stanford.EDU> <1992Aug12.155959.8055@adobe.com>
Distribution: ba
Organization: Stanford Linear Accelerator Center

In article <1992Aug12.155959.8055@adobe.com>, snichols@adobe.com (Sherri
Nichols) says:
>
>I have yet to see any credible evidence that using public money to build a
>stadium for a major league baseball team results in a net gain in revenues
>for the city.  I'd be very interested to see any such study you know about.
>
     I don't know of any concrete study offhand, but it makes intuitive
sense to me.  Professional sports is a very powerful tourism draw... As
a lot of South Bay Giants fans like to point out to me, most of the fans
at the games aren't from San Francisco proper.  When *I* go to games,
especially on the weekends, I'll usually grab something to eat in The City,
sometimes just making a day of it in San Francisco.  This wouldn't be
simply redirecting my purchases from one part of the city to another, since
I wouldn't have gone into town in the first place except to go the game.
     'Course, it's tough to measure something like that... I'd imagine that
the number of variables and the relative uniqueness of Major League cities
might make it difficult.

Brett
Newsgroups: ba.sports
From: kthompso@kronos.arc.nasa.gov (Kevin Thompson)
Subject: Giants Tickets for sale -- Tuesday Aug 18, Cubs
Organization: NASA/ARC Information Sciences Division
Distribution: ba
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 19:49:24 GMT


Two tickets for sale, Giants vs. Cubs, Tuesday Aug 18, 7:30.  Upper Box,
Section 25, and with the attendance of late you can move around pretty much
at will.  Face value $11.25 (part of a 20-game package I bought), yours for
$10 each.  Call 415-964-1820 (H) or 415-604-4767 (W), Sally at home or Kevin
at work.

Kevin Thompson
-- 
kthompso@ptolemy.arc.nasa.gov     Artificial Intelligence Research Laboratory
(415) 604-4767 (voicemail)        NASA-Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA
Newsgroups: ba.sports
From: tsv@dbrus.Unify.Com (Tim Vannaman)
Subject: SAVE THE GIANTS 
Organization: /usr/lib/news/organization
Distribution: ca
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 92 21:55:14 GMT


Why is it that when Lurie tried to get things improved for his team, not many
people were inclined to help or even listen.  But now that he has sold his team
and it will be leaving, people start to scream about it?

Come on, why did everyone wait until it was too late to act?  If there was this
much public support for the team and the improvements they needed 6 mos ago,
they might not be moving to Tampa.

Its not like he just upped and said, "I think I'll move the team", he'd been
threatening to do it for awhile.

Tim.
--
Tim Vannaman, Premium Technical Support Engineer   Phone: (916) 928-6433
Unify Corporation, Sacramento, California    Fax: (916) 928-6403
tsv@unify.Com  or  {{ucdavis,csun,lll-crg}!csusac,pyramid,sequent}!unify!tsv
Newsgroups: ba.sports
From: fineman@kronos-arclan.arc.nasa.gov (Charles Fineman)
Subject: QUERY: Tickets for Sunday's Giants game?
Organization: NASA/ARC Information Sciences Division
Distribution: ba
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 23:11:51 GMT


An old friend is in town and expressed interest in seeing the Giants
game on Sunday. Anyone have good box seats they want to sell?

	Chuck
--
From: warren@tandem.storage.com (Warren Savage)
Newsgroups: ba.sports
Subject: Giants Fund and other info
Date: 13 Aug 92 23:00:18 GMT
Distribution: ba
Organization: Tandem

Giants supporters,

   I want to bring your attention to the "Giants Fund".  The Giants
   Fund is being set up to give fans and ordinary citizens a chance to
   buy a piece of the team.  Andy Lewis, a mortgage broker in Los
   Altos, is administering the effort.  Andy is contributing $100,000
   of his own to the fund.

   Here's the details :

      - Checks are being taken (minimum is $1000, $10K is better) and
        held pending acceptance of an alternative S.F. Bay Area offer.

        The checks will be cashed ONLY if the offer is accepted and
        will establish you as part owner of the ball club.  Shares
        will be issued.

        If the offer falls through, your check will be returned.

      - Checks should be sent to :  
                                                             SAVE THE GIANTS
                                                             35 Avalon Drive
                                                             Los Altos, CA 94022

      - If you have questions or would like to help futher, you may
        call (415) 941-7145. (Right now, they are looking for someone
        with access to some printing facilities-- call if you know
        someone)

   ***************************
   Other Giants related info :
   ***************************

   Mercury News Q&A phone : (408) 920-5993
                                            fax   : (408) 920-5244

   Fay Vincent : Commissioner's Office
                           350 Park Ave.
                            New York, NY 10022

              phone : (212) 339-7800
                  fax   : (212) 355-0007

   Giants Alliance Hotline: (415) 826-0110


Best regards,
                              Warren Savage
From: pete@frosty.Rational.COM (Pete Coe)
Newsgroups: ba.sports
Subject: Cat Sailing
Date: 21 Aug 92 03:23:07 GMT

I am new to the area and I am interested in picking up where I left 
off on a recent sailing holiday.  Namely, sailing catamarams (spelling?)
Anyway I was sailing Dart 14's and Dart 18's and am now seriously hooked.
If anyone knows of clubs to join in the area, or anyone that needs a crew 
please let me know.
--
--                                    
-- Pete Coe (pete@rational.com) (408) 496 3843
-- Rational
-- Object-Oriented Products