From: jmalloy@itsmail1.hamilton.edu (Joseph T. Malloy)
Subject: Re: Macintosh bigots
Keywords: PC Good, Mac less so : ) 
Organization: Hamilton College - Clinton, NY
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 00:46:15 GMT

In article <1992Nov14.150215.28192@wam.umd.edu> rsrodger@wam.umd.edu (Yamanari) writes:
>In article <1992Nov13.141945.18628@itsmail1.hamilton.edu> jmalloy@itsmail1.hamilton.edu (Joseph T. Malloy) writes:
>>With the Mac, it's either love it or leave it, the user has no choice.
>>That, I susepct, keeps it in its fringe position as much as price and
>>closed architecture.  Mac heads have no choice.  Windows and, even more,
>>OS/2 users do have a choice.  I'll take choice any day.
>
>
>	This part has me confused.  Choice of what?
>
>	Software?  The Mac user typically has significantly
>	more _quality_ software available than the Windows users
>	has (although this is rapidly changing), and certainly
>	--by any stretch of the imagination--more choice when
>	compared to the OS/2 pickings (even running under A/UX3.0--
>	multitasking, the whole bit).  Perhaps not when compared to
>	DOS, but I can't think offhand of any DOS super-programs
>	that the Mac is lacking (word processors, autocad, etc..)

Balderdash.  There's more *quality* software to choose from for Intel
platforms and, in my experience, such packages are more readily
available and cheaper than Mac stuff.  I can choose to use DOS programs
or Windows program and, if I were to reinstall OS/2, OS/2 PM programs
(and who knows, maybe there'll someday be a selection of software that
takes advantage of the OS/2 32-bit environment, but I'm not holding my
breath on that one!).  I didn't suggest that the Mac lacks good
programs, only that there are generally fewer to choose from.  Choice in
the DOS/Windows/OS2 world means choice a wider selection, lower prices,
different platformettes...
>
>	Prices aren't so hot (>$400..) for most "good" applications, but
>	doesn't anyone else feel that >$300 is completely insane for
>	Wordperfect for Windows?  Especially considering the cost of the
>	"competitive" upgrade (i.e. "screw all first time users and
>	people who are too honest to grab an old copy or a manual page
>	from a friend and read obscene profits").
>
You may not like the 'competitive upgrade' offers precisely because
there aren't any (many? I really don't know) for Macs.  In the
Intel-based world, such offers make sense for developers...even a small
percentage of market share means many more users/upgraders/installed
base than in happy Mac land.

>	Hardware choice.. Well, certainly hardware is cheaper on the
>	PC side--this is just a function of competition.  Sooner or
>	later Mac clones will really start to appear (the necessary
>	products--toolbox clones and such--are finally really available)
>	and the prices will drop (although, even now the price of 
>	Mac hardweare is not all that out of line with name-brand 
>	[IBM, Compaq] pc clone prices).  In any case, Mac support for
>	video is as diverse as that for Windows and DOS (and tons
>	more than OS/2's anemic support) -- and it _works_ a heck
>	of a lot better than Windows video.  I challenge anyone to
>	show me an accellerated video card that is shipping with
>	bug free Windows or OS/2 drivers.  Diamond? Ha!  ATI?  Yeah.  Right.
>	Yet most Mac displays and cards work flawlessly.  Drop'em in,
>	hook 'em up, turn the machine on. 
>
>	Scanners, printers, everything.  It's all there. 
>
Once again, I never said that Mac users couldn't buy stuff only that you
guys just don't have as wide a range of choice.  As for Mac video
support being better than, say, Windows ('it works better'), thell that
to my colleague running system 7 (plus the, ahem, 'tuneup' bug fix)
who's been trying to get his full page size monitor to work right...  As
for prices, I watch with interest as people shopping in Sears look at
some Packard-Bell PC clone with a 486(sx?) versus a Mac (Performa?
Heck, these guys can't even spell!  :) -- the prices look comparable,
but then the sale guy mentions that the Mac monitor is 'only' $400 more
(or so, not a precise figure).  Suddenly the PB looks *much* better.
(BTW, I am not arguing in favor of PB, I know I wouldn't buy one; there
are other clone of more reliable heritage for similar prices, Sears just
doesn't carry them, I suspect).  

OS/2 driver support anemic?  You mean they finally have some drivers for
OS/2 now?  :)B
w
>	If you mean "choice" as in "cheap" then you're right.  PC clones
>	blow away the Mac.  They are cheap and they work fast.  They
>	just never work quite right.

Just as I have been using, for almost 2.5 years now, a 386/33 system
that has run Windows 3.x with utter reliability (the thing just doesn't
crash, though the odd app that goes down can be exited with Windows
local reboot), I suspect your mac is stable, too.  Great.  I've heard
anguished cries from colleagues all over campus (we're a very macced-up
campus) when their system crash, so I know the Mac is scarcely immune.
You can call my clone 'cheap' all you want, I know it's just envy :)
But the fact remains, I've had a far more powerful system operating for
years, reliably and consistently, than any my Mac friends simply because
my 'cheap' PC was inexpensive and the Mac was overpriced.  That's simply
all there is too it.

Now mind you, I have even recommended Macs to some people I know when
they come a-calling for advice.  I do not object to the Mac's existence
since it serves some useful purpose, I'm sure.  But I also do not insult
people who use it; I do not call their equipment cheap (one friend has
had her Mac die twice in the past month, first time system board, second
time hard drive, both times serviced by authorized Apple folk; another,
in the days right before Apple finally offered an industry-standard
warranty, lost her hard drive on a 9-month old system; she paid $550 to
get the hard drive replaced and I later read in _Infoworld_ that Apple's
HD supplier had sold the drivers in the systems in question with a one
or two year warranty...!).  

I guess it just bothers some people that I have a cheap computer that
does everything I want.  You'll just have to learn to live in a world in
which I'm content!>
>
>>Besides, those screens were so darn small!  Such bad resolution!  And
>
>
>	At the time they _looked_ incredible because the screens
>	were packing resolution that was considered "normal" on 
>	a normal CGA or EGA CRT onto a small screen.  Instant 
>	high-res perception.  Plus, you get very well defined lines
>	and such by drawing black on white instead of vice versa.
>
>	The resolution was roughly comparable to what was available
>	on PC clones at the time, but w/o color.  

Incredible?  As in "can you believe they'd use something so crummy?"
Yep.>
>
>>that 90-day Apple warranty!  Reliance on dealers for service (the
>>average Apple dealer in this area lasts about 2 years).  Yikes!
>
>
>	Admittedly, this was (still is) a big problem.  But how
>	is it any different from buying a noname PC system out of
>	Computer Shopper from some weird company like "HiTek" or 
>	whatever?  In this area, we had the same problem with 
>	a number of Apple dealers, but they don't seem to be 
>	opening/dying anymore.  What I _do_ see is small, local
>	PC dealers being _creamed_ by places like MEI/Microcenter,
>	CompUSA and so on.

[deletions]
k
>	(Just getting my jab in at big computer warehouses and 
>	"cheap is everything" consumerism...)

Well, I stick with PC-Connection for most of my stuff (over the years
I've purchased hard drives, printers, modems, and, of course, software
from them) and while they're never the absolute least expensive, they're
right in there with the best and their service is great.

>

Good luck with your new LJ4!  I'm envious!  I've had my IIP for three
years now and it's a first class little critter...can't wait to win the
lottery and get me a LJ4!

Joe
jmalloy@hamilton.edu

Xref: sparky comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy:2725 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:2711