From: scruggs@zeus.franklin.edu (Kevin Scruggs)
Subject: Re: Will the -REAL- Christians please stand up? Was: What did Judas be
Organization: Franklin University (Columbus, OH)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 11:54:15 GMT

In article <1993Jan8.070846.9843@hfsi.uucp> ata@hfsi.UUCP (John Ata - FSO) writes:
>In article <1idq1bINNomj@fido.asd.sgi.com> livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:
>>In article <1993Jan6.043709.29638@hfsi.uucp>, ata@hfsi.uucp (John Ata - FSO) writes:
>>|> In article <1iadi5INN1v7@fido.asd.sgi.com> livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:
>>|> >In article <C0CnAL.CsL@unixhub.SLAC.Stanford.EDU>, sschaff@roc.SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Stephen F. Schaffner) writes:
>>|> >|> In article <1ia8cnINNpeh@fido.asd.sgi.com>, livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:
>>|> >|> |> 
>>|> >|> |> How can any of us have any confidence that episodes like cooperation
>>|> >|> |> with the Nazis won't be repeated, when the church and its followers
>>|> >|> |> spend their time trying to rationalise away what happened, instead
>>|> >|> |> of saying frankly "Yes, we screwed up, and we're going to find out
>>|> >|> |> why".
>>|> >|> 
>>|> >|> I don't know about the Roman Catholic church, but I believe the Lutheran 
>>|> >|> church in (West) Germany did precisely that after the war.  I'll see if 
>>|> >|> I have any references in my files.  
>>|> >
>>|> >That would be great.   It would be the most definitive answer to the
>>|> >"no major denomination cooperated with the nazis" claim that started
>>|> >this discussion.
>>|> 
>>|> I don't remember anyone making this claim?  Do you have any references?
>>|> 
>>|> The discussion, the way I remember it, was a statement that
>>|> Hitler's regime was not based on Christian values.  How you come
>>|> up with the statement you made above is beyond me.
>>
>>To which I replied that this claim was misleading, since Christian
>>churches certainly cooperated with Hitler and the Nazis.   I thought 
>>you had been disagreeing with that.   Was I wrong?
>>
>>Are you instead saying that the main denominations *did* cooperate with
>>Hitler?
>>
>
>I am saying that a Church's cooperation or lack of cooperation had
>nothing to do with how Christian Hitler's values were.  The same
>goes for his regime.  And then I am asserting that his regime was
>not founded on Christian values.
>
	If the church is an alleged moral authority, then their support
of something implies moral agreement with that something. If the church's
postion on a moral issue is irrelevant to the the moral implications of it,
then what's the point of them setting themselves up as a moral authority?
(or commenting on secular matter for that point...)

>>If you are, and there is certainly plenty of evidence that this is so,
>>then I wonder how anyone can claim Hitler's regime wasn't based on
>>christian values.
>>
>>If Christian churches associated themselves with his regime, then are
>>they not accepting his values as their own?
>
>No they are not neccesarily.  They are merely associating with him
>for whatever reason.
>
	And if that reason is not coersion, it's a moral statement...
>>
>>jon.
>
>
>-- 
>John G. Ata - Technical Consultant | Internet:  ata@hfsi.com
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