HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: han@anadolu.michigan.com (hasan.b.mutlu)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,talk.politics.misc,soc.culture.bulgaria,soc.culture.turkish
Subject: Re: THE NEW BULLY OF THE BALKANS [ Part 3 from 4 ]
Date: 25 Aug 92 21:37:05 GMT





<BtLy3o.n42@news.cso.uiuc.edu>
ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis )

>>  Noel Malcolm on how Greece's profound neurosis about its own
>>identity is the biggest single impediment to any sensible EEC
>>policy in the region

> Tsk, Tsk, Tsk!! Profound neurosis of Greeks about their own identity?

Then we noticed the 'tamtam.' There's a little pronged fork sticking up 
at the end of his abdomen. How European is Greece, 'tamtam?' If the criterion 
is geography, again you are Europeans, of the south - but would there be 
a north without a south?

Culturally, I doubt it, and many people question this. Careful,
however: questioning does not mean absolute acceptance, at
least subconsciously.

But day to day, socially, economically, mentally, how European
are you?

Your governments sponsor, feed and shelter terrorists against
a neighboring state, but France does the same. 

Recently, students in the university-level specialist schools 
voted to select the most dynamic, in their opinion, European 
companies. They voted French, German, Italian, British, 
Spanish ... no Greek. They did not remember themselves? Maybe. 
But obviously Greek students do not remember themselves. You 
live somewhere outside; even regarding soccer since you have 
not been able to comply with the general specifications of the 
international organizations. And why comply regarding soccer 
since you have not yet succeeded, even for yourself, in knowing 
where you are, in updating your statistics?

Source: Jacop P. Fallmerayer, 'Geschichte der Halbinsel Morea,' 
        (Stuttgart and Tubingen, 1830).

Furthermore, the evolution of democracy leads one to believe that
the cradle of democracy is really in England, rather than in Greece.
The Greek version of 'democracy' was purely an accident. It was a 
product of the love of fallacy and a passion for sophistry of the 
ancient Greeks. No mechanism or method to make it worth was set 
forth, save a loose oratory. On the other hand, the British adapted 
the concept, developed it, turned it into a reality from a mere 
fantasy, and made it work. Had democracy really been an inherent 
virtue of Greeks would it have dragged its feet for so long to come 
to Greece? Even today, democracy is just so much as a catchword among 
the tourism slogans of Greece - not much substance and a lot of aura.

Hasan B-) Mutlu

                     'Kill Turks and Kurds wherever you find them 
                      and in whatever circumstances you find them. 
                      Turkish children also should be killed as 
                      they form a danger to the Armenian nation.' 
                                     (Hamparsum Boyadjian - 1914)


Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe
From: buis@buengc.bu.edu (Biomed Dept I.S.L.)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.greek
Subject: Re: Macedonia: History and Reality
Date: 31 Aug 92 16:48:23 GMT
Reply-To: buis@buengc.bu.edu (Lou Buis)
Followup-To: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Organization: College of Engineering, Boston University, Boston, MA, USA


	Oh, no, my goodness !!!
	
	This is the most lunatic fabrication I have read in my life. Period.

	It is sad that this can be "Reality" for some, people, but definitely 
	doesn't have to anything with "history".

	
	Regrets,

		Lou




	P.S. Actualy, I would suggest to the Greek Foreign Office to provide 
	a financial support for the Macedonian groups and newspapers in 
	Australia that have similar views to the one expressed above. 
 	I cannot think of a better exposure of the Macedonian side. 
		





	
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: ohrd!rdowlati@cs.toronto.edu (Ramin Dowlati)
Subject: Re: Canada's voice in Bosnia Conflict (General Lewis MacKenzie)
Organization: Ontario Hydro - Research Division
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 92 17:19:19 GMT

Shortly after leaving Croatia, 'General' Mackenzie headed for Washington
to brief the US armed services committee. Perhaps this tells us something
about where he was getting his orders from!

-Cheers

Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,eunet.politics,talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.theory,soc.culture.bulgaria,soc.culture.turkish
From: sk@groo.sunbim.be (Sasa Konecni)
Subject: Sorry for the multiple posting .
Reply-To: sk@sunbim.be ()
Organization: BIM Everberg Belgium
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 92 07:41:22 GMT

Sorry for the multiple posting of the article 

 The New Greek Phobia (phobos): [ Part 2 from 5 ] .

There were some problems with the newsserver at our site,
which resulted in posting three copies from the article.

Sasa.
 
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
= Sasa Konecni                     e-mail: sk@sunbim.be           =
= BIM   sa/nv                      tel:    +32 (2) 759.59.25      =
= Research & Development           fax:    +32 (2) 759.47.95      =
= Kwikstraat 4,   B-3078 Everberg,    Belgium                     =
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,eunet.politics,talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.theory,soc.culture.bulgaria,soc.culture.turkish
From: ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis )
Subject: THE NEW BULLSHIT OF THE BALKANS
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 18:50:08 GMT

sk@groo.sunbim.be (Sasa Konecni) writes:

>Because of request from readers I am reposting the whole 
>article from  Noel Malcolm.

 Yah babe, keep posting it.  We can't live without this bullshit.

>= Sasa Konecni                     e-mail: sk@sunbim.be           =


-- 
---> Panos Tamamidis
     University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: lip@s1.gov (Loren I. Petrich)
Subject: Re: Macedonia: History and Reality
Organization: LLNL
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 16:59:51 GMT

In article <1992Aug31.221005.7668@informix.com> rika@informix.com (Rika Tsitsinia) writes:
>In article <9224423.7722@mulga.cs.mu.OZ.AU> sachz@montebello.ecom.unimelb.EDU.AU (SAS) writes:
@
@On the Macedonian Matter:
@
@          This letter is dedicated to the Freedom Fighters
@                of Macedonia E V E R Y W H E R E
@
@
@        MACEDONIA: HISTORY AND REALITY

>	The rest of the long article is deleted. However, anyone who
>    still believes that Greeks are paranoid when crying about the
>    rewriting and stealing of their culture/history by Skopjie had
>    better read this. We haven't seen much of this in the last few
>    years, since Skopjie tries to keep a low profile until it is
>    labeled Macedonia.

	I once saw an amusing satire of renaming Slavic Macedonia the
Republic of Skopje: it was to name other countries after their capital
cities. Thus, I'm now living in the state of Sacramento in the nation
of Washington; I've also lived in the states of Harrisburg and Albany.
To the north is the nation of Ottawa, which I once visited. In Europe,
I've been to such nations as London, Paris, Vienna, Moscow, and the
former nation of Belgrade (where my father is from, though it is now
the nation of Zagreb). Those suggesting that Macedonia be renamed the
Republic of Skopje are from the nation of Athens; I suggest the
compromise of calling the former Belgrade nation "the Slavic Republic
of Macedonia" to avoid confusing it with Greek -- er -- Athenian
Macedonia.
From: sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.greek
Subject: Re: Paranoia and relevance
Date: 30 Aug 92 10:58:53 GMT
Organization: Enea Data AB

Michael Polymenakos (michael.polymenakos@factory.com)  writes:
)I wrote:
))In his reply, Michael argues that he referred to events which occurred
))this century. Let me respond to this with another parallel. Germany
))and French fought three bitter wars between 1870 and 1945. Yet today,
))a war between Germany and France seems unthinkable. Despite their
))previous conflicts they have managed to forget and say history is
))history. Sadly, Greece, or at least the Greeks whose subscribe the
))opinoins presented by Michael Polymenakos, has not been able to do
))the same.
)
)    Look at Bosnia and tell me that there is no danger of another war
)    erupting in the Balkans.

You were talking about the possibility that Bulgaria would present
territorial aspirations over Greek lands. What has that to do with
Bosnia?

)    We would very much like to forget history and go ahead with the
)    future. But in the form of this "Macedonia" issue, history is being
)    forced down our throats again.

The only one who are forcing it down your throats are yourselves.
Wake up it's 1992!

)    Do you think that is, all of a sudden, Germany begun to make demands
)    on Alsace (sp?) again, the French would not remember history?

Apparently you are so completely lost in your phobia of what
theoretcially could happen, that you don't understand what is
being said. The point is exactly that Germany will not make any 
territorial demands on France. Am I getting through?
-- 
Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - sommar@enea.se
F|rst till kvarn f}r f|rst vankiva
Xref: sparky soc.culture.yugoslavia:8385 soc.culture.greek:8277 soc.culture.bulgaria:1273
From: pnmideast@igc.apc.org
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Message fo[C[CWomen for Peace
Date: 27 Aug 92 05:32:00 GMT
Nf-ID: #N:cdp:1475300372:000:1304
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!pnmideast    Aug 26 22:32:00 1992


From: <pnmideast>
Subject: Message fo[C[CWomen for Peace

/* Written 11:22 am  Aug 25, 1992 by gn:npc in cdp:yugo.antiwar */
/* ---------- "Message fo[C[CWomen for Peace" ---------- */
To Women For Peace/ Women in Black in former Yugoslavia

We are women from the peace movement in Britain who would like
to make contact with women working for a peaceful solution to the
war in the former states of Yugoslavia. We are opposed to all
wars, and the death, destruction and pain caused by genocide and
"ethnic cleansing" in your country, and would like to give you
our support.

We would like to come and meet you, and also to bring aid. We
hope to drive across Europe, in two or more lorries, in
September, if women will invite us to come.

We would like to bring aid to give directly to women, so we need
to know what you need as soon as possible. We will be able to
raise money and sponsorship as soon as we hear from you, and will
also try to get as much publicity as possible for this project.

We look forward to hearing from you as soon as possible. 

In peace, and with hope for peace

Sian and Ippy

c/o National Peace Council
88, Islington High St
London  N1 8EG

Tel:    +44 71 354 5200
Fax:    +44 71 354 0033
E-Mail: npc:greennet...................... ... ...-....1200 N81N         ............
Xref: sparky soc.culture.yugoslavia:8310 soc.culture.greek:8174
From: buis@buengc.bu.edu (Biomed Dept I.S.L.)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.greek
Subject: Re: Independent Slavo-Macedonia
Date: 28 Aug 92 23:57:21 GMT
Reply-To: buis@buengc.bu.edu (Lou Buis)
Followup-To: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Organization: Boston University, Boston, MA, USA

In article <1992Aug28.223506.261@cs.wisc.edu> schoinas@fox.cs.wisc.edu 
(Yannis Schoinas) writes:

>Sorry to jump in but I couldn't resist. Can you give me a definition
>to the word greeks that would explain why the vlachs or the slavophones
>are not greeks? I can't think of any reasonable that would leave 90% Greeks
>in Macedonia (or even in Greece) excluding them.
>

	Definition of a word cannot make someone Greek ! 

	It is the feeling that they have about themselves that make 
	them what they are.

	If they feel Vlach, they are Vlachs, 
	If they feel Bulgarian, they are Bulgarians,
	if they feel Macedonian, they are Macedonians !

	We are talking about PEOPLE here and not about animal speces
	that we define and name, like Canis Lupus Familiaris, 
	and it becomes a dog, or you define something as Macaca mulatta
	and you are having from now on a Rhesus monkey, no metter 
	what he sais.
	
	PEOPLE have FEELINGS or CONCIUSSNESS ABOUT NATIONALITY 
	and it is a part of their CULTURE, that doesn't have to do with 
	how you define someone else, but whether he feels that he belongs
	to that cultural group or not.

	Moreover, there are many different definitions of national 
	groups, so using someone elses definitions may be ambiguous. 
	That's why just the personal feeling is relevant about this metter.

	Regarding the people in Greek Macedonia, all of them, 
	except the turists, are greek citizens, meaning they have
	greek id's, passports, do the greek military service if 
	needed, etc. But they may feeel ethic Vlachs, Macedonians,
	Bulgarians, or whatever.
								
	
		Yassu,

			Lou
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,eunet.politics,talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.theory,soc.culture.bulgaria,soc.culture.turkish
From: sk@groo.sunbim.be (Sasa Konecni)
Subject: Re: STOP BULLYING AND INTIMIDATING MACEDONIAN PEOPLE
Reply-To: sk@sunbim.be ()
Organization: BIM Everberg Belgium
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 92 07:37:47 GMT

In article <1992Aug24.052146.25453@news.weeg.uiowa.edu> on
Mon, 24 Aug 1992 05:21:46 GMT 
lolonis@news.weeg.uiowa.edu (Panagiotis Lolonis) writes:

>There is no slavic minority in Greece.  There are several bilinguals who
>speak Slavic languages but they consider themselves to be Greeks.

The biggest joke of the week!!!!

When Noel Malcolm a journalist from "The Spectator" was in 
North Greece he wrote the following:

  Sitting at a cafe in a Slav village near
  Florina [Lerin], in northern Greece,
  surrounded by people talking in the Slav
  Macedonian language, I pondered this minor
  miracle. "They say we don't exist," said
  one of them; "but tell me, do I look like a
  ghost?"


Sasa.
From: golchowy@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca (Gerald Olchowy)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: Canada's voice in Bosnia Conflict (General Lewis MacKenzie)
Date: 3 Sep 92 20:10:06 GMT
Organization: University of Toronto Chemistry Department

In article <1992Sep3.171919.23445@ohrd.uucp> ohrd!rdowlati@cs.toronto.edu (Ramin Dowlati) writes:
>Shortly after leaving Croatia, 'General' Mackenzie headed for Washington
>to brief the US armed services committee. Perhaps this tells us something
>about where he was getting his orders from!
>

I don't think this is true...he went to the UN in New York, and then
came home to Canada, and then the following week went to brief a
Congressional Committee.

Gerald
From: ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis )
Subject: Mr. Konecni, the lies are not going to help
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 18:47:23 GMT

nico@castle.ed.ac.uk (N Porfiris) writes:

>sk@groo.sunbim.be (Sasa Konecni) writes:
> > 
>>      The 100,000 Turks of western Thrace, on the other hand,

> If you have ever followed previous discussions in this newsgroup
>you might have come through some articles concerning Thrace. If 
>you were a little more curious you could have even read them. Well, in
> ....

>I must assume that you are a new reader in this group, maybe as new as
>the Scopjia democracy.

 No, he is an old one. But, he never reads any replies. He just posts every
 single thing against Greece that he can find.

 He thinks that this way, his country could benefit.

 But the more he posts his lies, the more the Greeks (and not only the
 Greeks) realize what their intensions are. This is what unites Greeks.

 The lies are not going to help this new republic.

>> = Sasa Konecni

> Nicos


-- 
---> Panos Tamamidis
     University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Xref: sparky soc.culture.yugoslavia:8483 soc.culture.greek:8445 soc.rights.human:3275
From: ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis )
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,eunet.politics,talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.theory,soc.culture.bulgaria,soc.culture.turkish
Subject: The Phobia of Mr. Konecni
Date: 28 Aug 92 18:52:32 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana

sk@groo.sunbim.be (Sasa Konecni) writes:

>The New Greek Phobia (phobos) 
>----------------------------
>(Part 1 from5 )
> .....
>-------To be continoued-------

 Perhaps the phobia of Mr. Konecni is that he is affraid to defend, or to
 answer the questions raised by people answering his postings.

 Yep, he is another coward ...

>= Sasa Konecni


-- 
---> Panos Tamamidis
     University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
From: ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis )
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,talk.politics.misc,soc.culture.bulgaria,soc.culture.turkish
Subject: Master Untrue Totally Lying Unit: Take a course in Math
Date: 28 Aug 92 17:44:54 GMT
Article-I.D.: news.BtpFyv.43u
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana

han@anadolu.michigan.com (hasan.b.mutlu) writes:

><BtMJqC.7A4@news.cso.uiuc.edu>
>ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis )

>>>Then we noticed the 'tamtam.' There's a little pronged fork sticking up 
>>>at the end of his abdomen.

>> Very typical Master Untrue Totally Lying Unit(s) answer.  When he has
>> nothing to say, he replies with an offense.

>Ever seen a 'tamtam?' You know, those centipedelike things with wooden
>'palikaryas' in rows. They're sold mostly in 'yunan' import shops, for
>wall decoration. 
 
 Why every Turk is affraid to condemn your behavior? 

>   "Did you know that..."

>The so-called 'cradle of democracy' Greece had only 17 years
>of democracy in its entire history. Before 1974 Greece was
>ruled either by military dictators or monarchs. Greece
>adopted democracy in 1974 when the ruling military junta
>fell as a result of Turkish intervention in Cyprus. In
>contrast Turkiye, three short termed military interventions
>withstanding, had multi-party democracy since 1950, for
>31 years.

 You'd better take a course in math. Many people have replied to your
 above crap. With the exception of the junta from 67 to 74, and the junta
 of Metaxas from 38(?) to 1940, the remaining was democracy. So, since
 Greece's independence from 1821 until now, this makes far more than 100
 years of democracy.

 Get the facts straight ...

>Hasan B-) Mutlu


-- 
---> Panos Tamamidis
     University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog)
Subject: Re: Getting to the truth about detention camps & human rights abuses
Organization: Enea Data AB
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1992 15:19:42 GMT

Joseph Blazic R (blazic@ecf.toronto.edu) writes:
>Consider the following: person A and person B, both drive cars.  Now, let's
>say that A has accumulated 1 parking ticket, while B has accumulated 10
>parking tickets, 20 speeding tickets, 30 drinking-and-driving tickets,
>and a dozen vehicular manslaughter charges.  It would be absolutely correct
>to state that both person A and person B were guilty of violating the
>traffic laws; naturally.  If we were to reverse the situations of A and B,
>one could state the very same thing.  So, the statement is accurate, but
>is it meaningful??  Should it be qualified?

This is silly. I corrected Josip Lonaric with help of information
he didn't know when he wrote his article, and Josip has agreed that
his article was not completely fortunate.

The fact we have at hand is that that the Red Cross has accused
all sides for severe abuses against the Geneva convention. From
this we cannot conclude that the Serbs are worse than anyone else.
However, we can conclude that what Josip said some days before the
report was published was no longer true. This was the point I made,
then you tried to blur the issue with something fairly irrelevant
in this particular issue.

To return the your example, assume that A has about half number
the number of tickets which B has, he is undoubtedly not as
bad as B, but he is definitely not a good guy.
-- 
Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - sommar@enea.se
F|rst till kvarn f}r f|rst vankiva
Xref: sparky soc.culture.yugoslavia:8386 soc.culture.greek:8281 soc.culture.europe:7970 soc.culture.bulgaria:1274
From: hubey@pilot.njin.net (Hubey)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,soc.culture.bulgaria
Subject: Re: Macedonia: History and Reality
Date: 1 Sep 92 03:35:41 GMT
Followup-To: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

In article <MACRAKIS.92Aug31174924@next4.osf.org> macrakis@osf.org (Stavros Macrakis) writes:


> I don't think it's necessary.  Since in almost every detail the
> article contradicts all prior historical and linguistic scholarship,
> it's hardly worth bothering to refute it.


Amen! as they say. It was certainly a very bizarre posting. It
contradicts almost all history I read. It might be Ok to claim that
there were some people there that mixed with others little further
south and produced the Hellenic people/nation but to claim
Macedonians are Slavs and not Slavs at the same time is
really ridiculous.

There might be a few points with which most readers may not be
aware: Bulgars did not get their name from Volga. Volga got
its name from Bulgars (Bolghars). And most assuredly Bulgarians
today are Slavs. The Old Bulgars were assimilated long time ago.

And Bulghar (Bolgar) means 'mixed' from Turkish verb root 'bulgha'.
The mixing apparently referred to the mixed Altaic-Iranian tribes.
-- 

	mark	


   hubey@pilot.njin.net                   hubey@apollo.montclair.edu
 ...!rutgers!pilot!hubey                  hubey@logos.montclair.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,eunet.politics,talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.theory,soc.culture.bulgaria,soc.culture.turkish
From: dam@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (David Morning)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,talk.politics.misc,soc.culture.bulgaria,soc.culture.turkish
Subject: Re: Master Untrue Totally Lying Unit: Take a course in Math
Date: 31 Aug 92 11:27:25 GMT
Organization: Glasgow University Computing Science Dept.

cza@troy.uucp (22141-akgun) writes:

>In article <x#hnd_a.strnlght@netcom.com> strnlght@netcom.com (David Sternlight) writes:
>>
>>Panos Tamamidis asks why other Turks don't condemn Mutlu's behavior.
>>Many have in e-mail to me. When I asked one why he didn't condemn
>>Mutlu publicly, he replied that Mutlu had threatened him and others,
>>and that many Turks are afraid of their immigration status.

>Your wish is granted as far as I read from your post above.
>You've got the hard evidences in your hand, haven't you?,
>You should keep your promise and start legal actions
>against Mutlu.  As you said before, blackmailing people
>in US because of political views is a pretty big crime that
>requires FBI to get involved.  This piece of information
>will really do Mutlu in once for all.  What are you waiting for?  

The trouble is that, if what David Sternlight says is true, the people who
have been threatened are hardly going to go into court and risk their
immigration status by dabbling in politics, which in itself would be a breach
of the conditions of their visa/work permit.

[..]
>If you don't mind, I cannot speak for all but I would
>like to know the outcome of your efforts if this is not a 
>cheep stunt.  You have to provide updates on this.
>If not, please do not do a hit and run type of accusation 
>like above that no one can verify the truth in it.

It shouldn't be too difficult for David Sternlight to contact the people he
claims have e-mailed him, ask for permission and strip off the headers and ID.
Of course, it might still be possible to identify the individual by his style
and your back to square one....

On the other hand, if what David Sternlight says is false, then it leaves the
route open to Mutlu to sue him for slander......Hmmmm..


Dave

-- 
Xref: sparky soc.culture.yugoslavia:8316 soc.culture.greek:8183 soc.culture.europe:7886