From: ner@banana.ithaca.ny.us (Steven Lee)
Subject: Re: Unification
Organization: The Twisted Banana BBS, Ithaca NY (US)
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 04:15:56 GMT

> Just because you didn't experience suppression doesn't means
> suppression didn't/doesn't exist or wasn't attempted. Perhaps
> you experienced a case where the deligated suppressor was not
> very competent at his/her job. 
> 
> (just because you didn't experience racism in America doesn't
> mean racism didn't/doesn't exist). Many people have reported
> punishment for speaking non-Mandarin mothertongues in school,
> both here and published letters to editors of newspapers, and
> there exist even more unreported cases.
 
OK, OK.  You (or some people) might have been supressed using the
dialect.  But how long ago did that happen?  20 years?  30 years?
I think I am relatively young in this newsgroup (18 years old), 
and I just want to tell you that things have changed.  Really.
No one is gonna stop you if you speak Taiwanese or whatever 
dialect in school.  As matter of fact, some of my teachers speak
Taiwanese in their offices themselves quite often.  But DPP or
whoever is complaining usually dont acknowledge this change and
is still making a big fuzz out of it. 
 
> Besides school, media monopoly. Before 1970, 50% of TV airtime
> was HoLo. In 1976, this dropped to 11%. Article 19 of the
> broadcasting code stated all "Dialects" may not have more than
> 15% airtime, while "foreign languages" have a limit of 30%.
> This is treating people's mothertongues as 3rd-class languages
> (behind Mandarin and English), and effectively treating the
> speakers as 3rd-class citizens in their own country.
 
I dont like how KMT is controlling the media now.  I want to see 
some private-owned TV stations.  However, those limitations do 
not imply the speakers of dialects are 3rd-class citizens.  
Dialects, e.g. Taiwanese (or HoLo if you would), Hakka, etc,
are NOT fully-developed languages.  So whats wrong with assigning
less TV time for dialects than languages (foreign or not)?  The
decreasing amount of time dialects are assigned just reflects the
fact that more people can understand Mandarin these days.  Again
the TV time is extremely limited because there are only 3 
stations.
I think the government should allow new TV stations.  And the
new stations can air as many shows using dialects as they want if 
they get enough interested audience and stay profitable.  The 
currrent limitations do create a problem for the elderly, but the
elder population is decreasing and elder people are fully capable 
of learning Mandarin, too.  My grandma, who is 72, is a good 
example.  She can now understand about 50% of Mandarin.
 
> How hard is it to teach just the phonetic symbols for people's
> mothertongues?
 
I dunno.  But it should not be REQUIRED in school.  For one, many
dialects (including HoLo) have one more tone than Mandarin.
(Try to pronounce black in HoLo, and you cannot find a matching
tone in Mandarins phonetics)
 
> How hard is it to either add a few symbols to bopomofo or use
> Romanization so that people have a _tool_ they can use to
> capture the living speech and sounds they hear in their
> everyday life?
 
_DEATH TO ROMANIZATION!!!_  Chinese glyphs is one of the most 
beautiful arts human civilization ever created.  How could 
you give it up so easily?  If you are so worried about losing
your mothertongue, you should be worried about losing your
Chinese heritage first!  
 
> Switzerland has 4 offical languages, and they are doing just
> fine. In their congress you can use any language you want. In
> Taiwan however only Mandarin is permitted. 
> 
> The old Soviet Union had over 110 "dialects," but they had
> bilingual education (still do). Having a different official
> language from people's mothertongue doesn't mean the
> mothertongue should be destroyed. Language, culture, and
> people's dignity are not some disposable elements in a
> democratic society. Are you making an analogy between KMT/CCP
> and Emperor Ch`in?
 
You havent met too many people from Europe, have you?  Most of 
them have to be fluent in 4 languages just to go about daily 
lives-- and many complain about it.  I dunno about you.  I have
had enough trying to be fluent in 2 lanuages.  Dont get me wrong.
Mothertongue should NOT be destroyed, but only ONE official 
language should be allowed!  Multiple official lanuages make
the government inefficient for obvious reasons.
 
> First, raw data doesn't mean much... they need interpretation.
> Please cite numbers, references, dates, exact wording of the
> questions, and how the poll was conducted.
 
I believe I read the article in New York Times a couple of months 
ago.  The number was something like 85% unfavor of TI.  I think
it should be partial enough since it is an American newspaper,
not the Central Daily.
 
> Japan is not part of China, and Japan has no natural
> resources. Is that any reason for Japan to unify with China?
 
Nope.  Its just too bad for Japan.  Japan will never be as strong
as the unified China.
 
BTW, I do NOT agree with unity with CCP.  No one should ever trust
CCP.  I think we should wait until the fall of CCP, which should 
be not far from now.  No need to rush into something irrational 
for
now.
 
> Is your "majority" defined by the number of seats in national
> assembly, or the actual people? By the number of TV networks
> owned? By the dollar amount spent in bribery? By the number of
> tricks played to divide the electorial districts up to favor
> your vote outcome?
 
Nope.  I was referring to the majority of people (relatives
and friends) that I know in Taiwan.  And I have a good reason
to believe most common people would agree, too.  If I were in
Taiwan and get caught in the middle of the traffic blocked by
DPPs violent protests, I would be damn p*ssed, too.  Those 
people should see the protests in more democratic societies.
Did Operation Rescue people beat police officers up in front
of Buffalos health clinics?  I dont thinks so.  In the 
contrary, they were very willing to be arrested.  __THAT is the
true spirit of civil disobedience!__
 
> Perhaps you are not familiar with the concept of "justice."
> Just because something is a law doesn't mean it's "just" or
> "fair." Who instituted those laws in the first place? Was it
> instituted democratically? That is, by fair election? The
> broadcast code above was a law, but was it "just" or "fair?"
> If a law is so unjust, then do people not have the right to
> challenge or make their voice heard? Do opposing sides have
> equal voices or access to media? Perhaps if KMT stops the
> media monopoly, there won't be as many street marches.
 
Did the Indian people have justice in the British colony?  Who
is in better position?  The African Americans before the Civil
Rights Movement or the DPP mob?  Unjustice exists in every 
society, and they should be fought.  But the method is important.
Two wrongs dont make a right, and social problems dont go away
overnight.
 
> I am talking about a model, a relation between nations or
> groups of people. Why is it that some people are so hung up
> about this big nation idea that they often overlook the price
> (no price too dear) and alternatives.
 
Because the US, Canada, and Australia do NOT share the same 
culture!
Its hard to see.  But Americans (or US citizens) and Canadians 
dont think the same way.  Trust me.
 
> Yet the result is that many grandchildren cannot communicate
> with their grandparents, even make fun of them behind their
> backs, have no respect for them, and is culturally unconnected
> with Taiwan's own heritage, yet they are unable to identify
> themselves with the real China which schools portray as such
> an ideal homeland.
 
You blamed the wrong cause.  The deteriation of family values
is caused by western cultures, which is really sad.  And please
dont stereotype.  I have the highest respect for my grandmother,
with whom I spent most of my childhood. She can bearly understand
Mandarin.  I communicate with her in HoLo without any difficulty.
I dont feel awkward at all.
 
> Perhaps you didn't know that the most used language in Taiwan
> business is HoLo. Yet schools have not prepared the young
> people for using this language, but has done the very
> opposite.
 
Is Taiwans success in business ONLY?  I certainly hope not.
 
> What do you mean by successful? If you mean high saving rate
> or hard work, what does it have to do with Mandarin? If you
> mean "cultural vacuum," yes, I credit that to the Mandarin
> policy. It has put many native talents out of work, and
> created a linguistic discontinuity.
 
You dont realize how unity of language is important to a country,
do you?  Try to name a country that is influential to its
particular historical period and has many official languages.  I
really have a hard time with that. 
 
Using one official lanuage and teaching only one official language
in schools does NOT mean an end to all dialects/mother tongues.  
The official lanuage in the US is English, and yet hundreds of 
languages/dialects are spoken every day.  Did those unofficial
languages/dialects die over the years?  No....

--
ner@banana.ithaca.ny.us (Steven Lee)
The Twisted Banana BBS, Ithaca, NY
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan,soc.culture.japan