From: kdlin@advtech.uswest.com (David Lin)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Thanks ( was: Gun Safes )
Date: 25 Aug 92 21:20:06 GMT
Organization: U S WEST Advanced Technologies

Thanks all who responded to my post. Lots of readers requested me
to post a summary. However, I feel that some people may not want
others to know that they own gun safes. So I stripped the mail headers
of the replies. Hope that is acceptable.

Enjoy it!! 

David

P.S. Lines begin with a `%' are my personal comments. 
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Reply #1:

In article <199208181704.AA14433@cherokee.advtech.uswest.com>, you write:
#Hello gang!
#
#I'm going to purchase a gun safe. I'll appreciate it if anyone can
#answer my questions.
#
#(1) A local gun store told me that a Browning safe is the only way
#    to go and all other brands are not worthwile to get. Is that
#    true? If not, what other brands should I consider?

	Not true. Also with browning, you pay ~100% more for the Browning
	name, than for a comparable safe. 

% I've found that Browning safes are a little cheaper than comparable safes.

#
#(2) He wants to charge me: the whole sale price + $50 profit + tax + shipping.
#    Is that a good deal? ( Shipping is about $60 in this case. )
#
	Yes. But keep in mind, that if he sells a lot of safes, he will
	be making a lot more than $50. the standard way safes are sold
	is the first one costs the dealer 'wholesale price', the second
	is ~2% less, the N'th one is ~25% less, etc. Since the big safes
	go for $XXXX, that's a lot of profit. 


#(3) I've seen a few gun safe ads. in the Shotgun News. Anyone has had
#    experiences with them? Any disadvantages to buy a safe from them?
#
\

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Reply #2:

Liberty Safes are better made than Browning. The steel is twice as thick.
there are no external hinges. attempts to punch the cylinder will double
lock the safe. They are better finished than the Prosteel.

Browning safes are sold through wholesale distributors. Liberty has local
reps who have their own riggers. YOu don't want to advertise that you bought
a safe. Typical safe weighs 800-1000# NOt a job for amateurs.

I have a Liberty Lincoln Series. Took 1 day to get delivered here. Cost? I
am a dealer and so I didn't pay retail but mine is a firesafe and would cost
you 1300$ delivered. I have rifles that cost 3x that.

C.

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Reply #3:

David--

o You write:

  > (1) A local gun store told me that a Browning safe is the only way
  >     to go and all other brands are not worthwile to get. Is that
  >     true? If not, what other brands should I consider?


o The local gun store wouldn't happen to sell Browning safes, would
  they?  :-)

o All kidding aside, I had a very good experience purchasing from Sun
  Welding of Sun Valley, CA.  I have no connections to the firm; just
  like to recommend companies that have given me good service and
  sold me good products.

o Good luck with your decision.



---------------------------------------------------------------
Reply #4:

In article <199208181704.AA14433@cherokee.advtech.uswest.com> you write:
#Hello gang!
#
#I'm going to purchase a gun safe. I'll appreciate it if anyone can
#answer my questions.
#
#(1) A local gun store told me that a Browning safe is the only way
#    to go and all other brands are not worthwile to get. Is that
#    true? If not, what other brands should I consider?

David -
There are many good brands: Browning, Fort Knox, National, Liberty, ...

I've looked at the above four brands, and they are all good - each
has its own strong points to recommend it.
These are nationally known brands, but you can get "huge" discounts
from some theoretical list price if you talk to local distributors
and work out a deal.  One example: decide what you want and work out
a deal so that the distributor can have your safe shipped and then
use it on display at a gun show (e.g.) before you pick it up.
Around here they have "show specials" a couple times a year - price
can be $1200 on special for a list price if $1900.


#(2) He wants to charge me: the whole sale price + $50 profit + tax + shipping.
#    Is that a good deal? ( Shipping is about $60 in this case. )

Depends on the wholesale price.  I don't have price sheets handy.
I recommend checking around and trying to see and touch some of the
different brands of safes available.  Check differnt gun stores,
lock and safe stores, and see if you can find local distributors
for some of the major brands.  The yellow pages would be a good place
to start.  Also you could write to safe manufacturers to see if
they have local distributors in your area.

Try to see different models to get a feel for the size, weight, and
solidity differences.  Wall thickness, door thickness, number and
size of bolts, locking mechanism, relockers, overall size, etc.

#(3) I've seen a few gun safe ads. in the Shotgun News. Anyone has had
#    experiences with them? Any disadvantages to buy a safe from them?

No experiences with them.  Check shipping charges in any case.
Also see if you can find a local manufacturers in your area.


---------------------------------------------------------------
Reply #5:


In article <199208181704.AA14433@cherokee.advtech.uswest.com>, you write:
# I'm going to purchase a gun safe. I'll appreciate it if anyone can
# answer my questions.

Congratulations!

# (1) A local gun store told me that a Browning safe is the only way
#     to go and all other brands are not worthwile to get. Is that
#     true? If not, what other brands should I consider?

Fort Knox. There are basically two types of full-size gun safes. The
beefed-up file cabinet (treadlock), and the walk-in vault. Don't even
consider the file cabinets (if you can open it with a crowbar, ...)
Browning and Fort Knox have 1/4" to 3/8" armor for walls and doors, and
the lock is a Sgt&Greenleaf that is pretty much uncrackable by amateurs
(unless they have a *lot* of time... something to worry about with children).

I like the feature on my Fort Knox, where the combination dial has a
key lock to prevent playing with combinations unless you have the key.
If you have children who may try opening it, this is probably a good
idea (with lots of patience and unlimited access, it's possible to
exhaustively try all combinations - I did this as a child).

You might also consider the fire-proofing. The safes come with various
amounts of insulation, the most extreme of which is adverstised as being
good enough that your house can burn down around the safe and your guns
won't be harmed. I went for the variant that should survive until the
fire crews show up.

# (2) He wants to charge me: the whole sale price + $50 profit + tax + shipping.
#     Is that a good deal? ( Shipping is about $60 in this case. )

Sounds like a damned good deal. Make sure you have a way of getting it
home, and lots of friends to help you roll it into place. You're talking
400-800 lbs (and $500-$1500 :-), so unless you get towards the small side,
don't even think about moving up/down stairs.

# (3) I've seen a few gun safe ads. in the Shotgun News. Anyone has had
#     experiences with them? Any disadvantages to buy a safe from them?

All the good ones that I;ve seen come from around Provo, Utah. I'd recommend
you don't buy one unless you see a living example. Count the number of bars
holding the door in (should hold all four edges, so that hinge failure does
not provide access - both Browning and Fort Knox do this, but Fort Knox
provides more bars than Browning), and the ability to change the combination.

---------------------------------------------------------------
Reply #6:

   You didn't mention what you are paying for a Browning safe...  The ones 
   I have looked at in the past _start_ at $1500, and go up from there.  
   Plus shipping, plus state taxes, plus installation, etc.

   After a guns only burglary several years ago, I had installed a Homak
   safe, hidden in the back of an otherwise "normal" closet.  To all
   appearances, the closet looks like a cedar-lined closet.  Homak gun
   safes are made from 16 or 18 ga. steel, with pin type locks.  They mount
   against the wall lagged to studs, and can also be lagged to the floor joists.

   This safe won't stop a determined burglar, with enough time, and the 
   right tools.  But coupled with an alarm system installed at the same time,
   it might discourage him.  Since I have a phone dialer connected to the alarm
   system, if the goofball waits long enough, he may very well have some 
   company.  (P.S.  The phone dialer calls cooperating neighbors, not the cops).

   The Homak safe cost me $100 during a K-mart loss leader sale.  Normal price
   is only $30 more.  They are advertised in Gander mtn., Cabella's, and others
   all the time.   Price for a first class carpenter installation was about
   $200.  The burglar alarm system was $600 at Radio Shack.  Again, first 
   class installation (everything completely hidden) by an electrician was
   $200.  The alarm system can also be used at night, tho I've never felt
   the need (I keep a .38 SPL on the nightstand. :-).

   I do not have any interest in Homak, nor do I have anything against Browning.
   I'm just real happy with the installation I've got, and want to pass along
   the experience.  good luck with whatever you decide.    Mike

--------------------------------
Reply #7:
In article <199208181704.AA14433@cherokee.advtech.uswest.com> you write:
#Hello gang!
#
#I'm going to purchase a gun safe. I'll appreciate it if anyone can
#answer my questions.
#
#(1) A local gun store told me that a Browning safe is the only way
#    to go and all other brands are not worthwile to get. Is that
#    true? If not, what other brands should I consider?

Not so, there are several brands that are as good as and better than 
Browning.  Look at Liberty, Fort Knox, and Frontier safes.  They all
advertise in Shotgun News and various magazines.

#
#(2) He wants to charge me: the whole sale price + $50 profit + tax + shipping.
#    Is that a good deal? ( Shipping is about $60 in this case. )

You can order all the above listed through discounters or factory
direct.

#
#(3) I've seen a few gun safe ads. in the Shotgun News. Anyone has had
#    experiences with them? Any disadvantages to buy a safe from them?

Call their 1(800) numbers and they will send you price information and
and glossy information sheets.  They should be able to save you some
money.  I personally liked the Liberty and Fort Knox designs.  I
ended up buying a Liberty safe.  If you decide which safe you want
the companies can quote you the complete costs including shipping which
is dependent on distance, weight, and nearest trucking terminal.

Charlie 

----------------------------------

Reply #8:

In article <199208181704.AA14433@cherokee.advtech.uswest.com> kdlin@advtech.uswest.com (David Lin) writes:
#Hello gang!
#
#I'm going to purchase a gun safe. I'll appreciate it if anyone can
#answer my questions.
#
#(1) A local gun store told me that a Browning safe is the only way
#    to go and all other brands are not worthwile to get. Is that
#    true? If not, what other brands should I consider?
#

Not true.  Mine is by American Security and I like it a lot.  You have
to keep in mind that a safe can't stop anyone that really wants your stuff.
Well, maybe some can - but that's not the idea of owning a safe.  The idea
is for the guy with the crowbar to see your safe and say "S#$%^#$^ !!, I 
brought the wrong tools.  Hey, I don't even have those tools."  Anyone who
can break even a casual safe is not interested in you 10 or 20 guns.  He'll
hit a distributer.

Bill	

--------------------------------------
Reply #9:
# (1) A local gun store told me that a Browning safe is the only way
#     to go and all other brands are not worthwile to get. Is that
#     true? If not, what other brands should I consider?

Browning Safes seem as good as any other, except for some 'extras'.  
Brownings are probably your best bang-for-the-buck, if you are at all price
conscious.

# (2) He wants to charge me: the whole sale price + $50 profit + tax + shipping.
#     Is that a good deal? ( Shipping is about $60 in this case. )

That's exactly what I charge.  (And I think it's a good deal -- it generally
beats the Service Merchandise price, and the customer gets to special order it.
Read: choice of color, liner, & options.)

# (3) I've seen a few gun safe ads. in the Shotgun News. Anyone has had
#     experiences with them? Any disadvantages to buy a safe from them?

Can't really say - never tried them.

# Any suggestions will be appreciated.

Not much, but I hope it helps... ;-)

Don


----------------------------------
Reply #10:


David--

   > Thanks for the reply. Does Sun Welding Co. ship their safes?

o I assume they do.  They also sell through stores/dealers (Pony
  Express in Van Nuys, CA, 818-895-1231, for example).  Shipping
  costs will probably be a major factor in any decision on where to
  buy a safe.

o I don't have Sun Welding's number with me, but I assume they're
  still in Sun Valley, CA, so 805-555-1212 should get you the number
  if you're interested.



MARK


-------------------------------
Reply #11:


 kdlin@advtech.uswest.com (David Lin) asks:

# I'm going to purchase a gun safe. I'll appreciate it if anyone can
# answer my questions.
# 
# (1) A local gun store told me that a Browning safe is the only way
#     to go and all other brands are not worthwile to get. Is that
#     true? If not, what other brands should I consider?

     From my research I have a sneaky suspicion that all safes are really
made by one or two manufacturers in Utah, and everyone gets them from them.
I.E. Browning, Fort Knox, etc just have their logo's affixed to a particular
safe at the factory.
     A locksmith friend of mine, told me the real delimiter in safe
effectiveness is the lock.  My 'Liberty' safe has an S&G class II lock.  My
friend says class III is best, but mine is good enough for its purpose.

# (2) He wants to charge me: the whole sale price + $50 profit + tax + shipping.
#     Is that a good deal? ( Shipping is about $60 in this case. )

   Depends on the price.  I ordered mine, direct from Liberty Safes in Utah.
I think they are in Ogden, no number handy.  It was 60" H, 24" W, 22" deep.
Plain jane finish.  Spartan combo interior.  I'm happy with it.  $600 for
the safe and $60 shipping to CA.  No sales tax.

# (3) I've seen a few gun safe ads. in the Shotgun News. Anyone has had
#     experiences with them? Any disadvantages to buy a safe from them?

   I dealt with A.G. English once.  I would not deal with these folks ever
again.  I miscalculated the dimensions required for the 1st safe that I
ordered.  I called back to A.G. English to cancel the order.  I volunteered
to pay the shipping to return the safe to the factory, since it was my 
mistake that caused the inconvenience.  I got the bill a month later.
It was 1.5 times what the shipping would have been to get the safe to my home.
Also, the explaination on the bill from the factory, indicated my safe 
never really left the factory at all.  So, apparently A.G. English was never
really out any real money for that safe.  It was then redirected to another
customer and I ended up paying his shipping bill.

-----------------------

That's all for today!!

-- 
 K. David Lin, Ph.D.		| E-mail: kdlin@uswest.com
 Member Technical Staff		| Space reserved for future expansion.
 U S WEST Advanced Technologies	| Disclaimer: Only personal opinions.