HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: alderson@cisco.com (Rich Alderson)
Subject: Re: Bulgarians - descendents of a Finnis tribe?
Followup-To: sci.lang
Originator: alderson@leland.Stanford.EDU
Reply-To: alderson@cisco.com (Rich Alderson)
Organization: Cisco Systems (MIS)
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 92 21:19:48 GMT

In article <1992Dec29.064921.26491@hplabsz.hpl.hp.com>, howeird@hpl (Howard Stateman) writes:
>>I've heard the same thing on a Finnish TV channel - It was the interview of
>>Turkey's president (Ozal or something like that).  It was he who told about 
>>his childhood and having to read the book in question, where Finland was a 
>>model society (it sounded funny,really).  He said that it's a widespread 
>>belief in Turkey that the Turks and the Finns are somehow related.  So if 
>
>Forgive me if this has already been brought up (I just started reading this
>group), but my Finnish friends are fond of telling me that the language of
>their homeland is most closely related to Hungarian. Not Turkish. However,
>with the long history of fierce wars between Hungary and Turkey, I would be
>surprised if there wasn't considerable overlap in the two languages.

The languages most closely related to Finnish are Estonian and Lapp; next most
closely related are some minority languages of the Volga River basin; likewise,
Hungarian's closest relatives are a couple of Volga languages.  Taken all
together, this makes up the Fenno-Ugric family.  (Add in the Samoyedic tongues,
and you get the Uralic family.)

And wars--as well as peaceful contacts--have nothing to do with relationships
of the sort under consideration.  Borrowing of vocabulary does not create
kinship.
-- 
Rich Alderson   'I wish life was not so short,' he thought.  'Languages take
                such a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about.'
                                                        --J. R. R. Tolkien,
alderson@leland.stanford.edu                              _The Lost Road_
From: clamen+@CS.CMU.EDU (Stewart Clamen)
Subject: Jordanian Palestinians (was: israel & hamas)
Originator: clamen@BYRON.SP.CS.CMU.EDU
Reply-To: clamen+@CS.CMU.EDU
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon University
	<1hm7f4INNmvi@manuel.anu.edu.au>
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1992 08:34:19 GMT

In article <1hm7f4INNmvi@manuel.anu.edu.au> bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay) writes:

   In article 19859@nysernet.org, astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein) writes:

   >Fortunately for them, Israel was willing, indeed eager, to welcome
   >them back home.

   >Had the Arabs been half as willing to welcome their brethren into
   >their homes, there would never have been a refugee problem.

   Both Syria and Iraq made offers to take large numbers of Palestinian
   refugees under various conditions.  Jordan made them citizens.  Your
   stolid determination to remain ignorant is a marvel.

Did Jordan grant citizenship to the Palestinian refugees or only to
those legally residing in the West Bank when it was annexed?

--
Stewart M. Clamen			Internet:    clamen@cs.cmu.edu
School of Computer Science		UUCP: 	     uunet!"clamen@cs.cmu.edu"
Carnegie Mellon University		Phone: 	     +1 412 268 2145
5000 Forbes Avenue			Fax:	     +1 412 681 5739
Pittsburgh, PA 15213-3891, USA
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: ifaz706@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu (Noam Tractinsky)
Subject: Re: Data
Organization: University of Texas @ Austin
Date: 21 Dec 92 12:21:03 CST

In article <1992Dec20.101641.8448@netcom.com>, zmbenhal@netcom.com (Zeyd M. Ben-Halim) writes:
> In article <1992Dec20.001343.1@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu> ifaz706@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu (Noam Tractinsky) writes:
+>
+>	Number of deaths since the begining of the intifadah, as
+>	reported in Ha'aretz, December 11, 1992, based on IDF 
+>	data:
+>			    	       	    KILLED BY
+>				Israelies    Palestinians   Total
+>                                
+>		Israelies           -             126+        126
+>	
+>	DEATHS	Palestinians     831 (923)*    809 (675)*    1640
+>
+>		Total		   831            935        1766
+>
+>	* Betzelem's data
+>	+ 48 in the territories, 78 within Israel
+>
+>Noam
+>
> 
> SO WHAT? The implication is that more people were kill by the Palestinians than
> by the Israelis does not absolved the state from the killings. A state is held
> to higher standard than random individuals. Resistance to occupation is quite
> legitimate just as the french resisted the germans and are hailed for blowing
> up germans and collaborators.


	I have only provided the DATA. You, and anyone else are
	entitled to any conclusions whatever.


> 
> BTW, the use of IDF data is certainly questionable (they are not exactly
> unbaised).


	That's why I bothered to look for, and post, Betzelem's
	data as well. If you have data from other sources, just
	post them.

 
> Zeyd


Noam
 
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:24213 talk.politics.soviet:10024 soc.culture.greek:11913 soc.culture.europe:10842 soc.rights.human:4679
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,soc.rights.human
Followup-To: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: The Greek approach has been to deny that these ethnic groups exist.
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 92 22:44:16 EST
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world

In article <Bzy443.J1r@news.cso.uiuc.edu> ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis ) writes:

> Aha! You got it better this time; Slavic Macedonians, not just Macedonians.

Ugh. In regard to "tamtams", one could easily draw attention to the 
minority rights of Albanians and Turks in Greece. The Greek approach 
has been to deny that these ethnic groups exist, i.e., that the Turks 
of Thrace are Hellenic Muslims. The Greek approach has been to refer 
to the minority problem in Thrace as a bunch of people who want 'to 
speak Turkish and wear fezes.'


Serdar Argic

                     'This war quickly developed into one of extermination. 
                      We closed the roads and mountain passes that might 
                      serve as ways of escape for the Tartars [Turks] and 
                      then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)
From: MULLER@fredonia.bitnet (Bill Muller)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: 2Re: Bulgarians - descendents of a Finnis tribe?
Date: 31 Dec 92 04:30:07 GMT
Reply-To: "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" <TPS-L@indycms.bitnet>
Organization: State University of New York - College at Fredonia

I am not a linguist by any definition, but have always been told that
Finnish, Hungarian and the language of the Basques are related to each
other and NOT related to other European languages.  Are there linguists
out there who can help us on this one?
======================================================================
Cheers,

Bill Muller
SUNY, Fredonia
======================================================================

                    ______
                  /       :           State University of New York
                 :        :              College at Fredonia
                /         :            Fredonia, NY  14063  USA
    __________/           :
   >                      :    Office BITNET: INTERNATIONALED@FREDONIA
  +Buffalo                :       Personal BITNET:  MULLER@FREDONIA
 *FREDONIA                :
:_________________        :         Telephone:  (716) 673-3436/3451
                   \_     :               FAX:  (716) 673-3175
                      \   :
                        '-: __,---.
                         /___/--/'

=====================================================================
From: 11856DAU@msu.bitnet ("Joe.Daubenmire")
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: UNSUBSCRIBE
Date: 27 Dec 92 13:52:00 GMT
Reply-To: "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" <TPS-L@indycms.bitnet>

PLEASE REMOVEMY NAKE FROM THIS LIST AS I DON'T HAVE TIME TO READ IT

THANKS


Joe Daubenmire
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
From: Olli-Jukka Paloneva <opaloneva@abo.fi>
Subject: Re: Soviet military.... / re: intellectual "little"
     cultures
Organization: Turku School of Economics
X-Useragent: Nuntius v1.1
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 93 13:09:30 GMT

In article <01GT1IM6Y24Y8WWYU0@MUVAXJ.RFERL.ORG> ,
BADERTINOVS%NEWS@adminb.rferl.org writes:
>And now, when those minorities want to secede from "the prison
of
>nations", they are told that they are not intellectual enough
to
>create their own independent states. This sounds a bit
disingenuous
>to me.
>
>Sabirjan.

I think that intelligency itself has never created an
independent state,
but critical mass of intellectuals are able to create
conciousness that
suggests for the minority that they could be better of if they
were
"free".

Nobody knows, which is best. Cultures come and go - languages
disappear
like wild life species. On the world level big cultures are
dominant, yet
their dominance is not based on so much on direct colonial
bureacracy or
military, but on commercial strength.

If Anglo-Americans and Russians had not win the WW2, I think
that I never
had had English as 1st foreign language, but I would know
German very well.

Culture in seldom intellectual affair - it is more dependent
POWER!

After mistaken experiences prejudice are sometimes considered as
inherited wisdom, altough I think that in present Russia there
is
too many wisdoms on the market right now.

Olli-Jukka Paloneva

PS Can America be No 1, if folks buy Honda Accord more than GMs?
From: BADERTINOVS%NEWS@adminb.rferl.org
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Soviet military training
Date: 30 Dec 92 11:13:25 GMT
Reply-To: "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" <TPS-L@indycms.bitnet>

>I have heard that most ruthless privates came from
>Tshesheni-Ingushia.

Oh, come on... How can you believe those stereotypes? The Chechen
republic wants to secede from Russia--that's the reason for all
the carefully nurtured rumours and stereotypes, like the one
that most of them are criminals and mafia members.

Sometimes those stereotypes can be very persistent. For example,
many people think that the famous 'Afghantsi' are all macho,
tough guys who don't care about any dangers. Bull...! They are
normal young guys not different from other soldiers.

Sabirjan
From: craiga@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Craig R Albrechtson)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Question about soviet air force
Date: 29 Dec 1992 18:43:56 GMT
Organization: Computing Services Division, University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.89.7.4
Originator: craiga@csd4.csd.uwm.edu

I a question about a particular unit in the russian air force.

I have recently began to collect russian and warsaw pact military 
uniforms and medals.  I have a russian air force aviators wings, on 
the wings written in russian is the words "sniper pilot" the guy who
sold me the pin told me they were an elite groups of fighter pilots.

If anyone out there could give me some background on this particular unit
of the russian air force it would be greatly appreciated.

thanxs
-- 
************************************************************************
* Craig Reese Albrechtson (Slider) * University of Wisconsin Milwaukee *
* The usual meanless disclaimers apply * craiga@csd4.csd.uwm.edu       *
************************************************************************
From: verbit@brauer.harvard.edu (Mikhail S. Verbitsky)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: U.S. reserve officers support program to a
Date: 24 Dec 92 00:16:23 GMT
Organization: Sozialistische Patienten Kollektiv

In article <1992Dec23.143001.10809@synapse.bms.com> henry@bms.com writes:
>Why do I have to pay my tax dollars to retrain 
>former soviet officers & millitary personal?

	Dollars are rather harmful to Russia
	anyway, especially in the hands of Chernomyrdin.
	If I was US President, Yeltsin wouldn't get a penny from me.
	Who did you vote for, anyway? Me? If Bush or Clinton,
	then you got what you deserve.. 

>Don't we have enough discontent in the 
>inner cities where people need training & skills?

	Sure

>Every time CIS needs new infusions, they begin to 
>blackmail countries to come up with new aid package or else...

	Everybody wants more money...


>Why the world community can not use the millitary expertise of hi 
>tech, well trained troups of CIS in Yugoslavia to stop the bloodshed?

	They gladly volunteer to help... Serbia!!!


>Where were they 2 years ago when The US, France & 
>GB were risking lives of their personal in the UN declared war on Iraq?

	And why should they help America to solve its own
	oil problem? 


>The only person I noticed at that time, was Mr. Primakov - 
>a special envoy to Iraq, who was negotiating with Saddam.

	Yeah, lots of Russian newspapers supported Iraq too.
	"Patriots" even required SU goverment to help Iraq.

>If they want to get paid , why not to work for the money ?

	But they are not paid yet (at least, by America).
	Germany pays 80% of money anyway.

	Misha.
From: hubey@pilot.njin.net (Hubey)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Chechens
Date: 3 Jan 93 03:02:50 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

In article <01GT1Z5HJRR48ZEAVG@MPS.OHIO-STATE.EDU> VIZNYUK@MPS.OHIO-STATE.EDU (SERGEI VIZNYUK) writes:

> > Does this apply to Chechens and Tatars too or only to white
> > Europeans and not to 'asiatics' ?
> 
>   To chechens it applies as to nobody else !
> The humanity would gain considerably
> if Chechnya becomes _totally_ independent, and if finally
> those idiots in Russian goverment realise that it's much
> cheaper to build a 100-feet high brick wall around Chechnya
> with 10,000-volts electric current running on the top,
> as a neccessary attribute of Russia-[independent]Chechnya border,
> than to feed those chechens and fight crime they bring
> to Russia, as would be the case if Chechnya stays in Russia.


I guess I hit the proverbial nail on the head !

So,if all the minorities started their own 'mafias' a la
the Chechens, then you'd agree to erect 100 feet brick walls
around their republics too.

It looks like both the Russians like you and the Chechens
will be very happy. They'll have a high wall with high-voltage
lines separating them :-)..

Tell me Serega, how many Chechens have you known?

I had an engineering student in one of my classes who was
a Chechen from Jordan. He seemed like a very nice fellow
and he did very well on exams. If I had to judge the
Chechens by the only Chechen I knew, I wouldn't have
anything bad to say about them. It looks like you had
some bad experiences or you heard a lot of stories about them.

Let me tell a little joke about the Chechens I heard when I
was in Russia two summers ago.

A Chechen company in the SA is ordered to line up and count
off. They start counting;

--One..
--One..
--ONe..
--One...
...

The Sergeant runst up to the second Chechen. "Durak", he screams
"Don't you know how to count. You're supposed to say 'two'."

"Hah.." says the Chechen. " You mean this turkey on my left
can tell the whole world that he's number one, and I have to
say I'm number two? Bullshit! I'm better."

Enough for now.

> Come on !  Japan, Korea, Taiwan are ruled by mafia-in-law.
> The Russians are caught in the middle: unlike Germans they
> have strong mafia, but unlike Japanese they cannot legalize
> it and coexist peacefully. Therefore all their problems...

Come one Serega. I'm sure you understood what I was posting
about. Why the need to blame the 'asiatics' for purported
missing ingredient in 'Russian character' ? How many 
centuries must pass, before Russians stop blaming all of
their shortcomings on the Tatar invasians of hundreds of
years ago ? Do the Arabs, Iranians, Turks still blame 
the Timurids  and Genghis-Khanids for all their problems ?
-- 

	mark	

   hubey@amiga.montclair.edu         hubey@apollo.montclair.edu
   hubey@pilot.njin.net               ...!rutgers!pilot!hubey
From: solodov@monterey1.cs.wisc.edu (Mikhail V. Solodov)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: U.S. reserve officers support program
Date: 24 Dec 92 20:59:47 GMT
Organization: University of Wisconsin, Madison -- Computer Sciences Dept.

In article <1992Dec23.205629.27026@synapse.bms.com> henry@bms.com writes:
>If people need money and they are offered job to do, they have to take it and do it,
>instead of waiting for a wellfare check to arrive.
>Mikhail Solodov suggests that Russia  is not in the position of "protecting American 
>oil interests.." but he complains about little financial help available from America.
    
    Dear Mr.Mednikoff,
    May I suggest that you read my original article carefully before
    posting your reply ? I have no complaints whatsoever. I merely
    stated where we are and what this "help" really means.
    In fact, I firmly believe that it's entirely up to the US, Germany &Co
    how to spend their own money, and nobody is in the position to tell'em.

>Why Mr. Solodov is so angry about US?

    ill-posed question, because I am not (see the above).

>It is time to get rid of "Big Brother " mentality.
>" Po Senke - Shapka".
>Instead of rolling up sleeves and working hard, we hear threats from some Russians:
>" Bail us out.!! or hold your breath".
>Henry.
  
    Blackmail is just another instrument of politics. What's wrong with
    that ? Well, lot's of things are wrong from the moral standpoint.
    But ,firstly, morality is always subjective, and secondly politics
    are dominated by pragmatism (by the way, in the US - more than 
    anywhere else).

    Michael.
From: hubey@pilot.njin.net (Hubey)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Soviet military training
Date: 3 Jan 93 02:49:15 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

In article <1993Jan2.231356.4579@lynx.dac.northeastern.edu> mkagalen@lynx.dac.northeastern.edu (michael kagalenko) writes:


> >1. How do you know about Chechen intellectual abilities ?
> 
> Reread my posts. 

Here are your posts. Show me where how you learned of Chechen
intellectual capabilities, racist nitwit!

From mkagalen@lynx.dac.northeastern.edu (michael kagalenko) Wed Dec 30 16:32:32 1992
From: mkagalen@lynx.dac.northeastern.edu (michael kagalenko)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Soviet military training
Date: 30 Dec 92 21:32:32 GMT
Organization: Northeastern University, Boston, MA. 02115, USA

In article <01GSXCK83JTE8WWTNJ@MUVAXJ.RFERL.ORG> "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" <TPS-L@indycms.bitnet> writes:
>>I have heard that most ruthless privates came from
>>Tshesheni-Ingushia.
>
>Oh, come on... How can you believe those stereotypes? The Chechen
>republic wants to secede from Russia--that's the reason for all
>the carefully nurtured rumours and stereotypes, like the one
>that most of them are criminals and mafia members.
>
>Sometimes those stereotypes can be very persistent. For example,
>many people think that the famous 'Afghantsi' are all macho,
>tough guys who don't care about any dangers. Bull...! They are
>normal young guys not different from other soldiers.
>
>Sabirjan


I spent some time (namely, 2 years) in the Sov.Army & can assure
everyone that the cited statement is not just stereotype. As for 
Chechen desire to secede from Russia - my opinion ( & of many my friends, 
too) that Russia would benefit greatly from "sanitary cordon" on 
the border of "Independent Chechnja". Want would you say about
politician who use the threats of terroristic actions against Russians 
as a tool for pressuring Russian government ? This is precisely what the
head of this "independent republic" general Dudaev did repeatedly in his
interviews to Russian media. Not to mention mafia structures formed 
by the citizens of "free Chechnia" in many Russian citys. 

From mkagalen@lynx.dac.northeastern.edu (michael kagalenko) Wed Dec 30 21:33:46 1992
From: thietaniemi@cc.helsinki.fi
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: One year of YELTSINOMICS!
Date: 2 Jan 93 14:58:13 GMT
Organization: University of Helsinki


I would like to start a discussion on the following topic:

Exactly one year ago, January 2. 1992 the prices in Russia were if
not set totally free, at least raised three- fivefold.

It was the start of Yeltsinomics (or Gairadonomics).


Why did it not succeed?

Or did it succeed, anyhow?

Or did some instances (like the central Bank of Russia) sabotage the
whole reform program?

Or are these questions posed in a wrong manner?


asks
the observer
Tapani Hietaniemi, Universitas Helsingiensis
                   urbs fennorum
From: thietaniemi@cc.helsinki.fi
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: waffle girl from Tallin?
Date: 3 Jan 93 20:28:19 GMT
Organization: University of Helsinki

In article <1457@my.sm.luth.se>, medev@my12.sm.luth.se (Alexander Medvedev) writes:
>>sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog) writes:
> 
> 
>>She might not have been caught doing anything illegal, but it is
>>difficult to imagine that she has not had contacts with the criminal
>>world, voluntary or involuntary. For some reason she has bodyguards...
> 

> I remember that article in Dagens Nyheter you refer to. Actually, it doesn't
> contain much information about lady's activities, but gives at least a clue how
> she does her business. For example she used to buy junked ships from Aral Sea,
> transport them via Russia to Estonia and, eventually, sell them to Sweden.
> Could this be accomplished by a "waffle girl" from Tallin? 


The Finnish press rumoured that Tiiu Silves started her career selling
flowers before the Viru Hotel in Tallinn.


> I doubt. One can also
> notice that she had begun her trade long before Estonia has got her independence
> which fact hints to well-established connections with Soviet red tape. All this
> makes me thinking the lady is just a "bulvan" (dummy?) acting on behalf of some
> mighty xSoviet mafia. I don't mean ordinary criminals but that scary gang of
> industrial managers who run Russia and plunder what's left of USSR.


You guess is as good as anyone else's. Actually, I would like to hear some
real information about those "new capitalists", not just hearsay evidence.
At least I can call some of them by the name.

with best regards
Tapani Hietaniemi  Universitas Helsingiensis
                   urbs fennorum
From: dharkins@papillon.ucsd.edu (Dan Harkins)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Apology...again
Date: 22 Dec 1992 17:32:10 GMT
Organization: University of California, San Diego
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: papillon.ucsd.edu

In article <Dec.22.01.28.58.1992.29171@pilot.njin.net> hubey@pilot.njin.net
(Hubey) writes:

> If Mutlu/Argic insulted you personally, I suggest that you show 
> enough intelligence to do the same. Nitwits who insult whole peoples
> are called racist in these neck of the woods.
>
> Waiting for an apology. Or else we'll know who the real pig is.

This neck of the woods too. In fact as soon as I posted that quote I 
realized I was baited into doing it and quickly -- within a couple of
minutes!-- posted an apology. You needn't wait, I only wonder why you
didn't see it already. If it got lost somewhere then I'll say it again:

I apologize to all who were offended by a quote I used in my last post.
It was tasteless and unnecessary.

It is interesting to note though though that Mutlu immediatlely branded
me an Armenian neo-Nazi. Must be a knee-jerk reflex.

Dan