From: zen@death.corp.sun.com (d)
Newsgroups: alt.feminism,soc.men
Subject: Re: a programmer is not an engineer, indeed
Followup-To: alt.feminism,soc.men
Date: 14 Sep 92 15:38:56
Organization: savage hackers
	<1992Sep14.152837.9951@uoft02.utoledo.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: death.corp.sun.com
In-reply-to: dweddin@uoft02.utoledo.edu's message of 14 Sep 92 20:28:37 GMT


In article <1992Sep14.152837.9951@uoft02.utoledo.edu> dweddin@uoft02.utoledo.edu writes:
> actually, you are right with respect to the fact that most engineers
> are abyssmal programmers. that's because their classes have IMHO far
> too few classes. but out in the "real world" (where i've been) the
> corporations prefer to hire engineers and teach them to program well
> as opposed to hiring you CS folk and teaching you to be engineers.

  The problem with generalities is that they are always wrong.  Or
something like that.

> > Before anyone tries
> > to flame me for this, I offer anecdotal proof.  
> [...]
> the point is, my anecdotes don't disprove your contentions any more than
> your anecdotes prove them.

  But you're quite willing to talk about them as if they were,
regardless, and go on in some detail about how tough engineering was,
especially when compared to CS or other puny majors.

> ... now when an employer comes to hire,
> he or she looks at the list of classes and the degree and says,
> "hey, muffy did well...but didn't take any of the engineering classes
>  while fred did well and DID take the engineering classes."
> now would it be discrimination if the employer hires fred and not muffy
> for a softwre engineering position???? 

  There's a *big* difference between software engineering and other
engineering disciplines (I just came from CMU, which has one of the few
software engineering postgrad programs; you can get some literature from
them if you want to know more.)  Everyone there (although this is not
conclusive proof, just more anecdotal evidence; I think it'd be very
tough to "prove" something like this) said that neither discipline (CS
and engineering), in general, did much to prepare someone for software
engineering.  Part of the difficulty is that software engineering is a
not very well understood problem (yet?).

> > Anyway, where do you think this "fear" of math comes from?  
> don't know. don't care.  not my problem.

  Indeed.  You're a man -- why should you care?

> > Math is not dangerous or anything...*grin*.  I sincerely doubt that 
> > women are instinctively "afraid" of math and science.
> you apparantly are not afraid of them...so maybe you can answer the
> question better than i, why didn't you go into engineering with
> a specialty in software as opposed to going into CS ??? 
> the fields are similar while the job and career prospects are certaily
> MUCH better for the engineer. so why CS and not engineering?

  *laugh*  I'm much better paid as a programmer than I would be as an
engineer, and my prospects were much better for my interests.  I've
found, in any case, after a few years of experience that it doesn't
matter nearly as much what was written on your piece o' worthless paper
some years back.  Why should someone go into engineering when you find
it dull, unchallenging, and a dead end?  That's about an accurate
summary of engineering as you made for for programming.  In any case, to
perhaps answer your question, I and plenty of other people don't give a
damn about working as an engineer.  And finding a programming job with
just an engineering degree is tougher than finding one if you have "CS"
stamped on your paper.

> > However, men don't get them at all, which seems a little unfair, yes?
> where did that come from????
> men get the negative messages every bit the same that women do. we just
> don't throw in the towel and quit when we have a setback.

  Well, if you had read her post, you'd find that she was specifically
talking about math and science (why are they always listed separately?),
and said that men did indeed get negative stuff tossed at them.
However, if you read much about how boys and girls are raised, and the
different ways that they are treated, then you might understand why it
is a problem for women to excel in math and science.  If you think
you were immune to societal pressures while growing up, or that people
aren't affected by the societal biases towards learning, then I don't
think you've grown up yet yourself.

> and by the way...it doesn't matter if it "seems a little unfair", nobody
> said that it was going to be fair. you will have obstacles that others
> do not and advantages that others do not.

  Well, that's a refreshing attitude.  "Chin up ladies -- it's tough,
but don't whine to me about it.  Men have it tough too!"  Why change
things, and who cares about injustice?  After all, anyone can make it to
the top -- this is america, after all.

 -- d
Xref: sparky alt.feminism:933 soc.women:16393