HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: elee7hw@jane.uh.edu (Hegde, Lalitha)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: Argicman Matanic
Date: 27 Jan 1993 12:15 CST
Organization: University of Houston
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: jane.uh.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    

In article <V5myXB4w165w@infopls.chi.il.us>, damir@infopls.chi.il.us (Damir Matanic) writes...
>wiener@duke.cs.duke.edu (Edward Wiener) writes:
> 
>> 
> 
>  Hey!!!  Eddie's back!!!!!!!
> 
>Well, Weener, who invited you?  Serbo-fascist trash such as yourself do 
>not belong on this newsgroup.  Go back to your fascist friends at 
>s.c.yugo.  
>  So, you don't like my citation, huh?  The truth really stings doesn't 
>it.  That citation explains perfectly what the Serbian mentality is, and 
>because of that, you can't handle it. You just can't accept the truth, 
>can you Weener? Huh...  Of course you can't.  You're a sick puppy Edward. 
>Only a sick, mentaly disturbed individual such as yourself and your 
>fascist friends can openly support Serb cetnik terrorists who have killed 
>100,000 Muslim civilians, raped thousands of women (so that they can 
>spread the 'Serbian seed'), mutilated countless Croat and Muslim 
>civilians and destroyed their cultural heritage, etc...  
>  The Croats and Muslims experienced this same type of treatment during 
>the first Yugo, and afterwards during the war.  We reponded then, and 
>we'll repond now.  If peace indeed doesn't return to the Balkans, the 
>primary responsibility for it's failure will lie with Belgrade's hords 
>and individuals such as youself.
>  
>   Crawl back into the manure from where you came from, stoko.
> 
>Damir
> 
>--
>damir@infopls.chi.il.us (Damir Matanic)


                     SIPU RACKU, GNJIDO USTASKA

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Xref: sparky soc.culture.yugoslavia:10734 alt.news.macedonia:285 soc.culture.misc:597
From: carlos@morgan.ucs.mun.ca (Miguel Borges)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,alt.news.macedonia,soc.culture.misc
Subject: Re: If Andy and Miguel knew to read ...
Date: 26 Jan 93 22:38:07 GMT
Organization: Memorial University of Newfoundland

irakliot@longs.LANCE.ColoState.Edu (Leo J. Irakliotis) writes:
>If A.T. Fear and Miguel Borges knew to read they would have avoid
>embarassing themselves with the following comments:

>|> cla04@seq1.keele.ac.uk (A.T. Fear) writes:
>|> Is this a reference to the old communist constitution or the one
>|> adopted since Independence?? I have a feeling that it might be the
>|> former which is not an entirely honest way of arguing.

>|> carlos@morgan.ucs.mun.ca (Miguel Borges) writes
>|> Exactly.  But then again, such fanatics rarely argue honestly.
>|> When they feel their arguements are weak, they immediately attack
>|> you personally.  Every response I've gotten has done this.

>Gentlemen, the passages were from the constitution of FYRM adopted
>after the independence. I am not doing any kind of propaganda despite
>what you might think (or wish.)

Give up the personal attacks, Leo.  They make your argument look much
weaker than it is.  Only a desperate fanatic would lower himself to such
a level.

Just answer the direct questions.

What should be done about Macedonia?  Should we kill them all?
Should it be forced to change its name?  What ?  What do you suggest?

-- 
begin 644 signature
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From: snggab01@uctvax.uct.ac.za
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: Macedonia
Date: 26 Jan 93 09:46:29 +0200
Followup-To: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Expires: 4 Feb 93 09:47:07 +0200
Organization: University of Cape Town

In article <93024.144219MECE7139@RyeVm.Ryerson.Ca>, MECE7139@RyeVm.Ryerson.Ca writes:
> 
> Macedonian will be recognized even with all the Greek propoganda.  I have a
> video tape that was shot in a village near Voden.  The Greeks were putting
> on a folk fest of "Macedonian" dances and music implying that it was Greek
> but from their province of Macedonia.  Oddly enough they had a banner that
> was covered up and the name of all the songs were in Macedonian, not Greek.
> I would like for any Greek to tell me what 'rudo jagne' is or 'makedonsko
> devoijche'  It isn't surprising that they didn't actually sing the lyrics
> since they aren't Greek.  Good thing someone had their handycam and captured
> this blunder by the Greek government!
> 
> Oh, in case some of you don't know, Voden is now called Edessa and Solon is
> Thessaloniki.
> 
> People can argue about what is said in books all they want and for however
> long they want.  I have been to the part of Macedonia in Greece and let me
> tell you that there were no Macedonians that were Greek.
> 
> Tashko Sarakinov.

The Greek government is spoiling for a fight with peaceful Macedonia.All the
time while Tito was in charge of Yugoslavia the Greeks never opened their
mouths and complained about the existence of the Macedonian province because 
Tito would have kicked their butt.In South Africa we have a Paris and an
East London and have not received any bullying threats from England or France
for daring to name our towns after their capital cities.

The Macedonian government has not evicted ethnic Greeks off their land,has not
threatened Greece in any way.(BTW Greece has an army 25 times larger.)
Macedonia is the only province of former Yugo to have stayed out of the war
and try to aim for true prosperity and happiness so leave her alone!!!!

-- 

University of Cape Town, South Africa 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------


Xref: sparky soc.culture.yugoslavia:10619 alt.news.macedonia:84 soc.culture.misc:537
From: elee7hw@jane.uh.edu (Hegde, Lalitha)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: Argicman Matanic
Date: 27 Jan 1993 12:19 CST
Organization: University of Houston
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: jane.uh.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    

In article <27JAN199312151320@jane.uh.edu>, elee7hw@jane.uh.edu (Hegde, Lalitha) writes...
>In article <V5myXB4w165w@infopls.chi.il.us>, damir@infopls.chi.il.us (Damir Matanic) writes...
>>wiener@duke.cs.duke.edu (Edward Wiener) writes:
>> 
>>> 
>> 
>>  Hey!!!  Eddie's back!!!!!!!
>> 
>>Well, Weener, who invited you?  Serbo-fascist trash such as yourself do 
>>not belong on this newsgroup.  Go back to your fascist friends at 
>>s.c.yugo.  
>>  So, you don't like my citation, huh?  The truth really stings doesn't 
>>it.  That citation explains perfectly what the Serbian mentality is, and 
>>because of that, you can't handle it. You just can't accept the truth, 
>>can you Weener? Huh...  Of course you can't.  You're a sick puppy Edward. 
>>Only a sick, mentaly disturbed individual such as yourself and your 
>>fascist friends can openly support Serb cetnik terrorists who have killed 
>>100,000 Muslim civilians, raped thousands of women (so that they can 
>>spread the 'Serbian seed'), mutilated countless Croat and Muslim 
>>civilians and destroyed their cultural heritage, etc...  
>>  The Croats and Muslims experienced this same type of treatment during 
>>the first Yugo, and afterwards during the war.  We reponded then, and 
>>we'll repond now.  If peace indeed doesn't return to the Balkans, the 
>>primary responsibility for it's failure will lie with Belgrade's hords 
>>and individuals such as youself.
>>  
>>   Crawl back into the manure from where you came from, stoko.
>> 
>>Damir
>> 
>>--
>>damir@infopls.chi.il.us (Damir Matanic)
> 
> 
>                     SIPU RACKU, GNJIDO USTASKA
> 
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>                                ||                  


                                              Radmilo Gregovic

Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,alt.news.macedonia,soc.culture.misc
From: schoinas@fox.cs.wisc.edu (Yannis Schoinas)
Subject: Re: Info on Macedonia
Organization: U of Wisconsin Madison - Computer Sciences
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 08:26:10 GMT

cla04@seq1.keele.ac.uk (A.T. Fear) writes:

>From article <1993Jan21.072031.29283@wam.umd.edu>, by yiannis@wam.umd.edu (IOANNIS VELISSARAKOS  ATHINA-HELLAS):
>> 
>> 	Macedonia doesn't have any Constitution of its own. MAcedonia is
>> 	a province in Greece (Northern Greece) and its people are 
>> 	Greek citizens under the Greek constitution. Also, the laws
>> 	which are existed in Macedonia are the same ones as the ones in 
>> 	the rest of Greece. I hope that I helped you a little bit.
> 
>By this reasoning the Grand Duchy of Luxemburg can't have a constitution
>either as there's a province called Luxemburg in Belgium. Come to think
>of it perhaps we don't have a constitution in England because there's
>part of France called Bretagne (Britain). Let's try not to be silly.
>There is indeed a province in the North of Greece called Macedonia and
>no one, including the government of the Republic of Macedonia disputes
>its right to that name or of the GraecoMacedonians to call themselves
>Macedonians. However there is also the Republic of Macedonia which has
>an equal right to this name and part of Bulgaria with similar rights. No
>one group has exclusive rights here, there isn't one sort of Macedonian
>there are many.

Dear Andy,
you seem to have too much free time these days... Is there any particular
reason for provoking all over again these endless discussions about names
and ancient history? Do you really like to write pages and pages of quite
inaccurate arguments? Once it may be fun but I think it started to become
your obsession. Why don't you start a discussion on roman history, which is 
after all your area? You can't but know by now that the issue is not in the 
name.

					 Bye,
					Yannis.

Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,alt.news.macedonia,soc.culture.misc
From: ls1@cec1.wustl.edu (Lambros Skartsis)
Subject: Re: Info on Macedonia
Organization: Washington University, St. Louis MO
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 00:36:15 GMT

In article: <carlos.727894949@morgan>
 carlos@morgan.ucs.mun.ca (Miguel Borges) writes:

>You can't be serious.  Is this what the big controversy is over
>Macedonia?  The Name?  HAHAHAHAHAH!
>
>Surely not all Greeks are that dense.  There has to be something more
>here.  Not just the name.  This is just a joke, right?
>
>BTW- Georgia (in the former Soviet Union) will not be recognized as an
>independant state, since it obviously is stealing the name (and the 
>rights that go with it) from the American state called Georgia.
>Give me a break.
>
>....
>hahahahaha.   All this over a name.
>
>...
>
>It just a name...


Just another indication of how the majority of the world perceives
the problem. The majority which, as
the above netter (sorry Miguel!) has no knowledge (actually no clue!) of the
history related to the issue nor, naturally, is gonna bother to
read or think much about it; rather their complete knowledge comes
from a couple of sentences they heard on their local news - or the way
these sentences sounded..

So I repeat my point: let's be careful about the two sentences the
world hears. If Greece would officially (rather than unofficially)
pursue modification of Salvomacedonia's name - so that it includes
the term "Macedonia" but still not create confusion and aid in its
territorial claims - this majority
of the world would not get the idea of "name-copyright" issue
(I indeed used to think that
the fact that it is not a name-copyright issue
should be obvious even with lack of  knowledge; common sense
should be enough, or so I thought). 

On a more serious note Miguel; you and others HAVE to read
 a little relevant history
if you want to post and start discussions.

L. Skartsis



Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,alt.news.macedonia,soc.culture.misc
From: carlos@morgan.ucs.mun.ca (Miguel Borges)
Subject: Re: Info on Macedonia
Organization: Memorial University of Newfoundland
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1993 17:02:29 GMT

lolonis@news.weeg.uiowa.edu (Panagiotis Lolonis) writes:
>The rights of one group of people should not harm the rights of another
>group of people.  In this case the rights of Greeks who live in Macedonia,
>Greece, are violated by the request of Skopjeans to gain recognition
>under the name "Macedonians".  If Skopjeans have trully good intentions
>for Greece, they should respect the rights of Macedonians in Greece who
>wish not to share their identity with their northern neighboors under
>the current circumstances.

You can't be serious.  Is this what the big controversy is over
Macedonia?  The Name?  HAHAHAHAHAH!

Surely not all Greeks are that dense.  There has to be something more
here.  Not just the name.  This is just a joke, right?

BTW- Georgia (in the former Soviet Union) will not be recognized as an
independant state, since it obviously is stealing the name (and the 
rights that go with it) from the American state called Georgia.

Give me a break.

>If Skopjeans think that Greece's position is unjust, then they should 
>prove why they deserve to be called "Macedonians" (using historical,
>cultural, political etc. arguments)

hahahahaha.   All this over a name.

>When we are talking about identity, including national or ethnic identity,
>we are talking about uniqueness (at least that is my understanding of the
>term "identity").  Therefore, I cannot see why it justifiable to use the
>same term to describe geographical, ethnic, and political entities that are
>different.

God, this is funny.  Hahahah.
>(To support my point, please count how many confusions have occerred or will
> occur about "Macedonia".  I have read in several prominent US newpapers
> articles that Alexander the Great was an ancestor of the Skopjeans, although
> people who are familiar with history know that this in not the case).

And the people who now live in Macedonia, Greece certainly aren't the
descendents of Alexander the Great either.  Jeeees...

It just a name...

-- 
   ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
  // C. Miguel Borges               A.K.A.                Carlos M. Borges //
 // carlos@morgan.ucs.mun.ca                    carlos@garfield.cs.mun.ca //
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
From: jovanovic-nick@cs.yale.edu (Nick Jovanovic)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna,soc.culture.croatia
Subject: Re: Good News from U.S.
Date: 21 Jan 1993 09:58:54 -0500
Organization: Yale University Computer Science Dept., New Haven, CT 06520-2158
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: zoo-gw.cs.yale.edu

In article <llrilrINN9u@news.bbn.com> rnewman@bbn.com (Ron Newman) writes:
>In article <1993Jan20.153634.19582@husc3.harvard.edu>, stojanov@husc11.harvard.edu (Milan Stojanovic) writes:
>
>|>     NEW YORK, Jan 19, Reuter - Only one in four Americans believes the United
>|> States has a responsibility to intervene in the fighting between Serbs and
>|> Bosnians in Bosnia-Herzegovina, according to a new poll released on Tuesday.
>
>You captioned this "Good News from U.S."  Exactly who is this
>supposed to be good news for?
>
>-- 
>Ron Newman		rnewman@bbn.com

First of all, it is good news because the question doesn't make any sense:
since most Serbs in Bosnia are Bosnian themselves (1.4 million Serbs lived
in Bosnia-Hercegovina before the present war started), exactly which fighting
between Serbs and "Bosnians" is the question asking about???

Second, it is good news that the majority of Americans do not support the
idea of using the U.S. military as much as the Bush administration did.  I
served in the submarine force for 8 years active duty to defend the U.S., not
to bully other countries.

Third, since recent events are finally showing that Croatia is just as much
a protagonist as Serbia in this war (Croatian troops in B-H, Croatian planes
violating no-fly zone more than Serbian planes, Croatian troops fighting
against Muslim troops, Croatian land grab of Herceg-Bosna, illegal arms sales
to Croatia in violation of arms embargo, etc.), it is good news that 
Americans are not ready to send their children to war as allies of Croatian
or Muslim or Serbian nationalism.

Fourth, it is good news for the thousands of innocent people in the region
who would be murdered by an escalation of the war if the "great powers"
intervene militarily.  Are the Iraqi people better off after these "great
powers" intervened there with Western weapons of mass destruction?

Fifth, it is good news for those in the region who are leading their
people into this war because it gives them notice that they are responsible
for settling their differences, not the "great powers."  This is as it
should be, isn't that what the words independence, autonomy, and sovereignty
mean?  

-Nick
  


 




Xref: sparky soc.culture.yugoslavia:10718 soc.culture.europe:11431 soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna:1372 soc.culture.croatia:506
From: adzinic@sun14.vlsi.uwaterloo.ca (Adnan Dzinic)
Subject: Re: Good News from U.S.
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 16:09:34 GMT

In article <llrilrINN9u@news.bbn.com>, rnewman@bbn.com (Ron Newman) writes:
> In article <1993Jan20.153634.19582@husc3.harvard.edu>, stojanov@husc11.harvard.edu (Milan Stojanovic) writes:
> 
> |>     NEW YORK, Jan 19, Reuter - Only one in four Americans believes the United
> |> States has a responsibility to intervene in the fighting between Serbs and
> |> Bosnians in Bosnia-Herzegovina, according to a new poll released on Tuesday.
> 
> You captioned this "Good News from U.S."  Exactly who is this
> supposed to be good news for?
> 
> -- 
> Ron Newman		rnewman@bbn.com

For agressors from Serbia, of course.
Adnan
Xref: sparky soc.culture.yugoslavia:10597 soc.culture.europe:11314 soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna:1288 soc.culture.croatia:450
From: boyle@kirkuk.berkeley.edu (Joseph Boyle)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.europe,soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna,soc.culture.croatia
Subject: Re: NPR: Bosnia Faces Aggression now from Croats
Date: 21 Jan 1993 18:43:22 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: kirkuk.berkeley.edu

In article <C17t4G.Iyx@apollo.hp.com> goykhman@apollo.hp.com (Red Herring) writes:
>    The media often refers to the Bosnian goverment as "Muslim-led".  
>    To me, this sounds neither "secular", nor "democratic".
>
>    Are we talking about the same goverment?

I think so.  The Bosnian government and armed forces include Croats and
Serbs as well as Muslims, and has consistently supported a pluralist
democratic state through the whole conflict.  Government-held areas now
hold mostly Muslims, but this is more because the government lost Serb-
or Croat- majority areas early on, because government-held areas have 
received Muslim refugees, and because only Serbs or Croats are welcomed
as refugees in Serbia or Croatia, not because of massacres or expulsion.

Could pluralism still work after the Serb extremists have worked so hard
to destroy it?  I think so, at least in the biggest cities.  [Why is it
that the media never reports from Tuzla, which was supposed to have the
most inter-religious cooperation early in the war?]  In the countryside,
I'm not so sure.  Probably outside peacekeeping troops would be needed.

Also, since the Bosnian government needs outside help so badly, it is
the party that is most susceptible to outside pressure to respect human
rights.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.europe,soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna,soc.culture.croatia
From: jdd1@cec2.wustl.edu (James Dimos Dimarogonas)
Subject: Re: If Andy and Miguel knew to read ...
Organization: Washington University, St. Louis MO
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 02:18:15 GMT

In article <carlos.728087887@morgan> carlos@morgan.ucs.mun.ca (Miguel Borges) writes:
>irakliot@longs.LANCE.ColoState.Edu (Leo J. Irakliotis) writes:
>>Gentlemen, the passages were from the constitution of FYRM adopted
>>after the independence. I am not doing any kind of propaganda despite
>>what you might think (or wish.)
>
>Give up the personal attacks, Leo.  They make your argument look much
>weaker than it is.  Only a desperate fanatic would lower himself to such
>a level.
>
>Just answer the direct questions.
>
>What should be done about Macedonia?  Should we kill them all?
>Should it be forced to change its name?  What ?  What do you suggest?
>
HUH???????? DID I MISS SOMETHING HERE????

The guy answered your question of whether he is quoting the old or new
constitution of the breakaway republic. Personal attacks???

But I really love the logic of such binary people:  there are 2 (two)
solutions to the problem, either recognise them as Macedonia or kill
them all.  As for sugestions, there have been plenty over this net 
(such as calling it Vardar Macedonia or making it a federation
with one part using the name macedonia etc. etc.).  There have been
plenty of suggestions,  but I guess this violates the binary logic
of some people on the net.  The latest suggestion of international
arbitration (made by the French and agreed by the Greek goverment)
seems the most civilised aproach to the problem.

The most disturbing fact about the whole discussion is that the ones
attacking Greek positions with all their strength on the issue of
Macedonia are "northeners".  The Turks on the net, although not 
exactly buddies, don't deal with the issue.

Could this be a north south kind of conflict?  The good lighter skined
slavs, that live in the north, against the darker and "uncivilised"
Greeks in the south??  Could this be an unconsious display of european
racism (I won't get into names so that I won't insult anyone,  but you
can imagine who are the blonde blue eyed people by their names, even though
this may not be very accurate).

Don't get me wrong,  there is much to be desired from the
attitude of a few of the Greeks on the net too, but I canot understand
the passion of some of the norhern european netters on this subject
which does not affect their lives one way or the other!

Cheers,

James Dimarogonas
 

Xref: sparky soc.culture.yugoslavia:10730 alt.news.macedonia:272 soc.culture.misc:594