HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: LGOODIN@WORLDBANK.ORG (Laura Goodin)
Subject: Re: Model Mugging (long)
Organization: World Bank
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 21:04:34 GMT

In article <3632@unisql.UUCP>, wrat@unisql.UUCP (wharfie) writes:
> If I was a lighter person with
> less upper body strength the very last place I'd want to be is in a
> ground fight.  I understand teaching _anyone_ how to work on the ground,
> but I don't understand the "ground is her strongest position" part at all.
> 
> 								wr
> 
> 

Actually, if my choice is pitting my weaker arms against a man's (usually 
much) stronger arms, I'll be at a desperate disadvantage.  However, if I'm on
the ground, with my feet towards my attacker, I have my legs -- which, for
the average woman, are five times stronger than her arms -- to use on his
ankles, shins, and especially knees.  I can also stomp up into the groin, and
also into the head if he leans over me low enough.  If he ends up on the 
ground from my taking his knee out, his head is now at a good kicking level,
and I can knock him out with a few good kicks.

If he smothers my kicks and ends up with his face near my hands, I can do
eyestrikes, palmheels, or other strikes to the face and head.

More important, if I'm on the ground, I can't fall and get injured; I can't 
be thrown and get injured, either.

Most important of all, most rape attempts at some point end up with the woman
on the ground anyway -- why not learn to fight in the situation you will 
probably be in?
  
-- Laura
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: rajagopa@me.udel.edu (Gopalakrishnan Rajagopalan)
Subject: pull/sprain
Organization: Department of Mechanical Engineering/University of Delaware
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 03:08:56 GMT

I sprained the lower part of my gluts while doing splits on chairs.
Considering it to be a case of a simple sprain I proceded on a dosage
of Ibuprofen but this did not work. Ben Gay etc proved futile.
I desperately need some advice on what corrective steps to take so that
I can get back into training as early as possible. Incidentally I have a green
in taekwondo and am really raring to resume practice.
Waiting for a positive reply soon.
Thanx in advance
Gopal





Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: CA.FER@forsythe.stanford.edu (Jennifer Gates)
Subject: Re: Model Mugging (long)
Organization: Stanford University, California, USA
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 16:15:11 GMT

Natelie,

Just a couple of additions to you great post on Modle Mugging (MM).

I have heard of MM classes in Switzerland, so there may be others in
other countries as well. I do know that the instructors will travel
to give classes if there is enough interest...

Also, not all of the 'Muggers' are male, there have been two women
'muggers' (the instructors who wear the padded suits) that I know of
and there may be more that I don't know of.

Also, some MM chapters offer MM classes for men in a modified
format. I even got to take a men and womens advanced workshop which
was great.

Thanks for the post
fer

Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: mhirsch@dynastar.princeton.edu (Michael Hirsch)
Subject: Re: Model Mugging (long)
Originator: news@nimaster
Organization: Princeton University Department of Computer Science
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 16:09:55 GMT

>>>>> On Wed, 9 Sep 1992 16:15:04 GMT, natalies@hplsla.hp.com (Natalie Schuchard) said:


NS> Several people have mentioned, either directly or indirectly, the Model
NS> Mugging self defense course for women. I, and many others have taken
NS> this class and I feel that it is an excellent class (other graduates:
NS> what do you have to add?) I do not beleive it is offered outside
NS> the USA, but maybe someday.

Thanks for the list.  I looks very useful.

I have in my hot little hands the Self Defense and Empowerment News
and they list Impact Switzerland in Zurich and Agression Simulee in
montreal as foreign affiliates, so I guess it has gone international
and intercontinental.  

To get Self Defense and Empowerment News ($15/year) write or call
SDE News
P.O. Box 986
San Luis Obispo, CA 93406  USA
(805) 995-1224

--


Michael D. Hirsch		mhirsch@cs.princeton.edu    
Computer Science Department	Voice: (609) 258-1751       
Princeton NJ, 08544		FAX:   (609) 258-1771       
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: osan@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (Mr. X)
Subject: I wonder...
Organization: Twilight Zone
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 20:11:52 GMT

In article <MHIRSCH.92Sep14110842@algorithms.princeton.edu> mhirsch@algorithms.princeton.edu (Michael Hirsch) writes:
>
>So typically she will let herself be
>pawed a bit before putting her fingers in his eyes, her knee in his
>groin, then, as he doubles over, a knee to his head.  Often there is
>no time to hit back.

	I'm wondering how well this MM thing will fare in the long run.  If it
	becomes popular, will the rapists eventually get wise (quiet wiseguys)
	to the techniques and learn to look out for and counter them?  Perhaps
	a bullet in the head followed by some yummy necrophilia?  Just
	wondering.

	-Andy V.
From: robinson@cogsci.Berkeley.EDU (Michael Robinson)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Help with flexibility
Date: 5 Sep 1992 19:23:40 GMT
Organization: Institute of Cognitive Studies, U.C. Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: cogsci.berkeley.edu

In article <1992Sep5.181335.12572@alw.nih.gov> drury@helix.nih.gov (Richard Drury) writes:
>Or, ask your most flexible training partner how he got and stays that way.

Invariably, they started stretching when they were eight years old and never
stopped.  :-(


-- 
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Michael Robinson                          UUCP:   ucbvax!cogsci!robinson
                                        INTERNET: robinson@cogsci.berkeley.edu
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: acharya@HYDRA.ROSE-HULMAN.EDU
Subject: Aikido Dojo Listings (FTP Archive)
Reply-To: acharya@HYDRA.ROSE-HULMAN.EDU
Organization: Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1992 18:11:27 GMT

to the kind soul who explained how to obtain a list via anonymous FTP:

thank you
thank you
thank you

-m.a.
From: osan@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (Mr. X)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Model Mugging (long)
Date: 14 Sep 92 17:37:20 GMT
Organization: Twilight Zone

In article <BuF0qw.3BD@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> burdickd@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Dakin Burdick) writes:
>Andy V. seems to agree with Bobby Knight's statement that sometimes
>women should just "lay back and enjoy it", rape that is.  

	Before anyone gets to starting rumors that may not be so, let me make
	my position clear on such things:  There is no hard and fast formula
	for dealing with situations like rape.  Each set of circumstances are
	more or less unique and IMO should be treated as such.  Therefore it
	is advisable that persons become trained and proficient in reading
	such situations that they might be able to make the best evaluation
	possible.  I am sure there are times when it is indeed so that the
	best course of action, from the standpoint of remaining alive, is to
	cooperate, but this is not "lay[ing] back and enjoy[ing] it".  It is
	doing what must be done in order to see another day pass.  I find the
	quote on laying back to be rather cynical and it in no way reflects my
	feelings on the matter.

>Lastly, how about a little reality injected in this story?  Not
>all attackers are 250 pound weightlifters with a black belt in three
>martial arts.  

	True, but more often than not they are armed in some way.  The 
	threat posed by a gun is obvious, and a knife is every bit as
	deadly a threat, thought many people fail to recognize this.
>
>The guy who raped her had done so before.  His M.O. was to rape the
>women and then strangle them.  He had already killed 3 women.  He
>raped my friend, who was very skinny and weak, and who had no training
>in the martial arts (and still doesn't for that matter).  Through-out
>the episode she kept asking the guy, "Why are you doing this?  I'm
>a human being too; I'm a person; I have feelings."  She says this
>made him hesitate long enough for help to arrive, and she credits it
>with her survival.  

	Proves my point.  She had no training in physical methods, but was
	on the ball enough to use whatever resources she had at hand to 
	forestall her enemy long enough to save her life.  Had she been there
	thinking to herself "Block, then kick... or was that kick then block,
	or punch and kick... oh fudge..." she might not have lived long
	enough to have regrets.  Congratulations and condolences, and hope
	she is doing well.

	-Andy V.
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: Matt.Balara@bbs.oit.unc.edu (Matt Balara)
Subject: Re: Fencing
Organization: Extended Bulletin Board Service
       I'd first like to apologise for my lack of reply quoting ability,
       Second I'd like to express envy that Doug Nichols works at Rhythm &
       And third, I'll finally get on to the r.m-a stuff...Doug Nichols
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1992 02:29:53 GMT

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
       Matt Balara                       "It's not my planet monkey boy!"
       cde1mdb@cabell.vcu.edu
       Matt.Balara@bbs.oit.unc.edu                          -John Whorfin
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
--
   The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the University of
     North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the Campus Office for Information
        Technology, or the Experimental Bulletin Board Service.
           internet:  bbs.oit.unc.edu or 152.2.22.80
From: wrat@unisql.UUCP (wharfie)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: groundfighting
Date: 11 Sep 92 23:16:45 GMT
Reply-To: wrat@unisql.UUCP (wharfie)
Organization: UniSQL, Inc., Austin, Texas, USA

In article <1992Sep11.151739.1428@PA.dec.com> stark@dwovax.enet.dec.com (Todd I. Stark) writes:
>or going to the ground, where it is more difficult to get a hold of her or
>hit her effectively (re: Ali vs. Inoki, and other similar matches).  

	Ali vs. Inoki only worked the way it did because Ali didn't
want to get on the ground with Inoki.  My position is that if a small
person goes to the ground and a much larger person follows him he will
lose badly unless very skilled in groundfighting.

	It *IS* possible for a small person to keep a much larger
and more skillful person at bay by going to the ground and using his
legs to attack the standing person's legs.  But a smart attacker will
move to the side, cover up, redirect/block the kick and then smother the
one on the ground.  Or even sit down and advance legs first!

								wr
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: New Movies...
From: Mitch Lewars <MAL112@psuvm.psu.edu>
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1992 16:39:34 EDT
Organization: Penn State University

Anyone go out and see the new Brandon Lee movie
that just came out?  What're peoples opinions,
concerning his "performance"..?
Anyone know what style(s) he studies..?
(Gotta admit I liked the way he handled himself
in SHOWDOWN IN LITTLE TOKYO...  even if the movie
wasn't quit the best... plot-wise, or much else..)

Any information would be much appreciated.
   Take it e-z all..

(Reply or send mail to MAL112@PSUVM.PSU.EDU)

[He who admits what he doesn't know, is at least true to himself.]
From: osan@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (Mr. X)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: NONE
Date: 15 Sep 92 15:27:02 GMT
Organization: Twilight Zone

Is it just me, or has Khalid Khan been scarce lately?

	-Andy V.
From: loki@castle.ed.ac.uk (A Kashko)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Summary of Kids in Judo
Date: 15 Sep 92 11:26:22 GMT
Organization: Edinburgh University

In article <BuL48x.Fz2@hsi.com> mallon@hsi.com (Dan Mallon-Kraft) writes:
>2) British bulldog.  2 teams, one defends, one attacks.  Attacking
>   team must get as many players into defendants end zone as possible.
>   You're out if you're picked off the floor for a count of 3.

	This is not the bulldog I played as a kid. The idea was one
person in the middle, and all the others try to run past them. If he
lifts them up completely, they join him, and this continues with the people
running
back and forth till everyone is down. At the end you may have about
10-15 people trying to  lift you up. Kicking, punching and biting are
socially unacceptable, as is "really fighting", and playing hard can be
mistaken for losing your temper.

	I believe it has been banned by the Scout Association as 
being too dangerous.
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: CA.FER@forsythe.stanford.edu (Jennifer Gates)
Subject: Re: Model Mugging (long)
Organization: Stanford University, California, USA
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 16:56:34 GMT

>>From the ground your upper body can be protected by your legs which
>>are your stronger part. This prevents you from having to 'play their
>>game' by avoiding strikes or striking with your upper body... Thats
>
>        How?
>                                                wr
>
OK Warfie I will give this a try....

Say you are on the ground... mabey you got knocked down and some one
is standing and trying to get to you... You stay on you side and put
your feet toward the aggressor. If they come too near you you kick
them in the knee, groin or what ever target presents itself. If they
grab your foot you kick thier hand with the other foot. If they grap
both feet you use your free hands to stike their face, eyes etc...
This works very well for multiple assailants as well as you can spin
arownd on you hip quite freely...

Again timing is important. I would prefer to be standing so I could
run if I got the oportunity until I had no choice. I have a few
really good standing techniques but the moment I felt out classed
standing I would change the venue. You can do this by dropping as
they close in and kicking the groin/knee right away. The suprise
element is useful.

So, I have some comments to make of other posts some men have made
that bother me.

1. Remember assaults on women are not like fights between men. Men
who do it expect it to be easy. they chose women as victims because
of this... Women in these MM classes have scores of specific stories
of what happended to them. These stories are remarkably horrible and
disturbing, especially because they are told by the women who it
happened to.... Most people never really can believe that they are
as common as they are.....
There are also police records that document what happens in crimes
reported to them.

2. Yes there are different types of assailants... The "muggers" in
the classes portray different types in the simmulated assualts. They
clearly demonstrate that a strategy that works for one assailant
will not work on another...

3. You should know that it is an offensive response when talking
about women's self defence to 'brag' about how tough you are and
say things like 'what if they had to take on someone as
big/stong/well trained as I am'. Frankly this sounds like a threat..
A large part of the reason that many women don't even try to defend
themselfs is due to the myth that men are invincible and if you try
you may hurt him and make him mad and he will make you sorry...

4. I support the use of all tools available in self defence. In
particular I reccomend using the image that the assailant has of the
woman as helpless to set them up for a good strike.... When you need
to fight dirty...

Fer
From: taddiken@ms.uky.edu (scott taddiken)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: For Roni
Summary: What's your email address?
Date: 12 Sep 92 16:30:08 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: University Of Kentucky, Dept. of Math Sciences

The Subject and Summary say it.  I apologize for using this forum.  Roni
mailed to me, and I found I couldn't respond, although I very much wanted to.
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: burdickd@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Dakin Burdick)
Subject: Re: Model Mugging (long)
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1992 18:22:25 GMT

In article <1992Sep12.165701.6027@craycos.com> sog@craycos.com (Steve Gombosi) writes:
>
>Dakin, from your previous posts I've inferred that you're a pretty big guy
>(~200 lbs) and pretty strong. Even if you hadn't trained, do you *really*
>think you'd have much difficulty overpowering a 105lb woman unless she
>had a *lot* of training? Especially if you were *really* determined to hurt
>her and hurt her badly? I don't think so...

Well, my wife weighs 115 lbs, exactly half my weight, and I try to use
only techniques that she (and the 12 year olds in my Kids Karate
class) use successfully on me.  Now, if I wanted to, yes I could
overpower her pretty easily.  But I hope she would manage to crunch my
testicles, or break my foot, or poke me in the eye, or scratch arm, or
SOMETHING.  Like I said, if I'm attacked by 5 guys, I'm going down,
but I intend to leave my attackers with something to remember me
by.

>Size and strength are tremendous advantages. It takes a *lot* of training
>to be able to deal effectively with someone twice your size - whether he
>has any real knowledge or not. You're just not going to attain that level
>of capability from *any* short course. You *may* get lucky, your attacker
>*may* be stupid, incompetent, or easily intimidated. Do you really want
>to trust your life to luck? Gimmicks and motivational pitches are
>no substitute for sweat. There ain't no such thing as a free lunch.

Ok, so full-time martial arts training is better than MM.  But MM
teaches aggression, and I think that is more important in the short
run than is the techniques used.

Dakin
burdickd@silver.ucs.indiana.edu

PS:  I may have overreacted to Andy's post, but it seemed to me that
he was saying that untrained women didn't have a chance against an
attacker.  I don't think martial artists should think that.
From: Kenneth_Ferguson@rand.org (Ken Ferguson)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Styles in Bloodsport?
Date: 4 Sep 92 19:57:55 GMT
Organization: RAND
X-UserAgent: Nuntius v1.1a2




      That was monkey Kung Fu. The person you saw was none other than the
great Paulie Zink. A monkey Kung Fu master.



       Ken Ferguson
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: ejdath@donner.uucp (25832-dath)
Subject: Re: Jumping
Organization: Bellcore, Livingston, NJ
Distribution: rec.martial-arts 
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 92 15:20:19 GMT

In article <1992Sep01.135348.16435@orionsci> goodwin@orionsci.uucp (Ben Goodwin) writes:
>Quick question on jumping:
>
>What types of exercises should I do to increase my vertical leap?
>I'm working on my jumping spinning back kicks and I figure there must
>be some muscles that I can work on to give me a little more height.
>
>Any replies appreciated.
>-- 
>
>-Ben

I used to do the long jump.  The toughest part of which is getting enough
vertical distance to stay airborne longer than your competition and hope 
that you ran at least as fast aas he did to carry you the distance.
We did much stair work, running up and down(2 or 3 at a time) and lots of
one legged hopping.  You hop up and down the stairs and stuff like that.
Also stand on one leg and squat down until your thigh is parallel to the
ground, then count to 15 (or more if your strong) then quick jump up as high
as you can.  Repeat this as many times as you can, usually not so many
especially if you keep increasing the 'hold' part of the excercise.
Also to get the feel of really letting it fly, try jumping for a target,
like a basketball hoop, it is also a good way to guage your progress.

Viel Gluck!

E.J.

Disclaimer,discalimer, Hey...it's me!

Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: wrat@unisql.UUCP (wharfie)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: groundfighting
Date: 10 Sep 92 23:46:07 GMT
Reply-To: wrat@unisql.UUCP (wharfie)
Organization: UniSQL, Inc., Austin, Texas, USA

In article <18oes5INNkmo@agate.berkeley.edu> robinson@cogsci.Berkeley.EDU (Michael Robinson) writes:
>The goal is to deliver incapacitating injury to someone trying to rape you.  
>On the ground, a woman can employ both legs simultaneously toward this end.

	Yes, that's what I don't understand.  What techniques are more
useful given 2 opponents on the ground ?  Why wouldn't her ideal position
be standing but her attacker on the ground?  Why isn't her best strategy
to stay mobile and disengage as soon as possible instead of getting tangled
up in a wrestling match?

	Please, I'm just trying to understand, not criticize.
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: burdickd@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Dakin Burdick)
Subject: Re: Boxing and Kicks
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 12:27:45 GMT

In article <1992Sep9.001222.22906@access.digex.com> cherry@access.digex.com (Cherry Poptart) writes:
>
>1. In watching some kickboxer types recently,
>and pro boxing on TV, it seems like there is 
>not much need for these guys to block "kicks
>to the head" because they stay covered up most
>of the time.  In fact, while they seem open to
>kicks to the lower legs and maybe up to mid
>thigh, their upper bodies seem to be very well 
>covered by the closed stance that they hold
>(looks real different from the MA stances that
>I see in the movies ;-)

I used to use this "peek-a-boo" defense and it worked great
except when I faced somebody who could do two difficult kicks --
jump back spin & jump back side (aka. jump spinning side).  The 
jump back spin kick is a very powerful one and drives the boxer's
fists right into his temple as he tries to defend.  The jump back
side shoves a stomping heel between his hands and smashes his face.
After I came up against these, I started moving back towards a
traditional karate stance.

>2. If you did kick up high at a boxer, what
>would happen if he or she decided to box your 
>foot?  

It would hurt.  The Japanese used to do this in their sparring,
but it got dropped when they came to the states in the 1960s because
Americans didn't like getting hurt that much.

Dakin
burdickd@copper.ucs.indiana.edu

Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: CA.FER@forsythe.stanford.edu (Jennifer Gates)
Subject: women MAs and Model Mugging
Organization: Stanford University, California, USA
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 22:24:22 GMT

Martial Arts and women and Model Mugging

I have a theory about why most MAs don't work as well for women as
they do for men. I would be interested in other peoples experiences
that support or contradict this theory......

Traditional MAs were mostly designed for men (yes I know that there
are some interesting exceptions). Most men (not all) are very good
at using full power/energy but lack control. So, most MAs have
beginners learn lot's of control and gradually allow them to add
power.

Most women are good at control but have serious social blocks on
using power. They take MAs and are very promising beginners (they
have good control). As they become intermediate students they get
frustrated as they don't know how to add power to their techniques
(I know that this was the case for me) Then the MA school leans
harder and harder on the woman to 'bring her power out', this
doesn't work and the woman quits in frustration sure that women
just can't stand up to men, and the men all agree.

Model Mugging teaches women to release their power. They only teach
enough techniques to help keep the woman from hurting herself once
she is using full power (it is not uncommon for a woman to break
her wrist striking with an improper fist and learning a correct
fist takes a long time... so the heel palm technique is taught.)
Initially they bring the power out by using positive reinforcement,
they let the woman win in the beginning and gradually add power.
Then after the woman has gained confidence and learned the
mechanism of releasing power they start pushing her to new levels.

For myself it was only after taking MM that I was able to use power
in my MAs. For me both are essential, control and power. MAs were
not able to teach me how to use power MM did. Do others have
similar experiences?

Fer
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts,rec.arts.movies