From: smd@sl0091.srl.ford.com (Steve Dahmen)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage
Subject: Resolution to the One
Date: 6 Nov 1992 17:49:42 GMT
Organization: Scientific Research Lab, Ford Motor Company
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: sl0091.srl.ford.com
Keywords: hold on to your chair
Originator: smd@sl0091.srl.ford.com


In hopefully the last post in a fiery series of three, I end my demonic
dialog with the didactic Kalki Das.

Kalki wrote:
:smd@sl0091.srl.ford.com (Steve Dahmen) writes:
:
:> Perhaps you don't know the word pundit, also sometimes spelled pandit.
:> A pundit is a person (more commonly older, Indian (east)) who spends his
:> professional time speaking on the scriptures.  Usually, though not necessaril
:> he's not a priest, and doesn't perform ritual for others.  he just talks.
:> And talks.  And talks.  And emptyminded people sit and listen and marvel 
:> at his beautiful voice and perhaps get some wisdom from the scriptures.
:> Most indicative of a pundit, that I have found in my years spent within
:> the Hindu community, as well as my trip to India several years back, is that
:> they don't listen to anyone's dogma but their own, and cling to scriptural
:> words rather than their own spiritual vision.
:
:The prime example of a pandita is Chanakya, who was Chandragupta
:Maurya's prime minister. He accepted no salary, and lived in a hut. But
:his instructions on the duties of a righteous king are still considered
:authoritative.

Maybe we should offer his instructions to President-elect Clinton so he could
run our country a little better!  Nothing like a few authoratative scriptures
to make the world a little brighter... the Bible, Q'ran (pardon the spelling),
Dhammapada, Bhagavad Gita.... have done so much for the world! 

Not.

Scripture and the mindless clinging to it has been the cause of much
human suffering and yay, even death on this planet. Christians killing
Indians, Jews killing Muslims, Muslims killing Hindus, Hindus killing
Sikhs, Christians killing Pagans.... pandits killing newsgroups....

Actually, I think God had a great idea... offering Humankind some writings
to guide us. I wonder if He knew that so many quasi-spiritual halflings would
wad it up and use it to wrap their chewing gum ego, to burn it as fuel
for their personal illusion, or to fashion weapons of killing and violence.
Do you realize you are actually committing and act of VIOLENCE by
dumping your beliefs as TRUTH upon this electronic community?  Do you?
Our collective will has stated that this is a FORUM of SHARING our
traditions and beliefs.  If you're willing to share, then GREAT.  But to
SHARE you gotta connect, and to connect, you gotta get real and get down
off your throne.  To continue to yak AT us is a violation of our
preference, and has karmic results just as any other violation
(another word for misunderstanding).  You're choosing one heck of a way
to learn about relative belief systems, friend.... you're lucky you didn't
walk into a community of people who could see you.  You might be dead by now.
But maybe somebody would write a story about you and other devotees could
get inspired by your "devotion" and "committment."  (maha-sarcasm) The
day of the martyr is over, Kalki.

The collective conscious is really sick and tired of empty spiritual
didactic being projected from empty spiritual minds.... souls hunger for
HEART LEVEL TRUTH AND LOVE in a form they can digest... they want
evolutionary thinking and feeling and realization... not more of the same
old....

:> So, Kalki, you stand upon a sandalwood soapbox, vomiting an ego-tarnished
:> spiritual lunch all over the rest of us.  I for one am getting nauseous of
:> the whole thing.
:> 

:If our job was to humor you we would certainly apologize. Do you really
:expect us to stop posting simply because you don't like what we say?

Not because I(we?) don't like what you say -- I don't agree with a lot of what's
posted here... that's not the point-- its how its said.
This is a NewsNet community... there are rules of courtesy and protocol
that exist to maximize enjoyment of this electronic pastime.  A copy of
netiquette, as its called, can be found posted to news.announce.newusers.
I seriously suggest you get a copy and read it.  One main tenet is to post
to APPROPRIATE groups only, and to respect the charter and flavor of the
group.  UseNet is offered in a community spirit... we all try to cooperate.
There are always a few radicals that insist on non-cooperation, and 
eventually, they are ignored.  You are not being ignored probably because
you're interesting.... you're enthusiastic and really are on a path that
seems to give you strength... we'd love to have your participation in this
group.  Keep up the dogma flow, however, and you will eventually be ignored
just as have been the itinerant Christians who have insisted on proselytizing.

If you become enough of a nuisance, well, there are netmethods of being
equally a nuisance to you.  Maybe somebody will write a script and send
it to everyone which will send a repitition of the "Hare Krishna" mantra
to you every two minutes via email.  Ten or twenty people doing that should
slow down long enough so maybe you can think about what you're doing.
But this would be a petty and last resort.

:> It really blows my mind that people can apply powerful spiritual practices
:> such as chanting, singing, dancing, and worship, and still receive no
:> inner guidance... or worse yet the kind of illusory guidance that says it
:> is appropriate to come stumbling into an open-minded (am i?) spiritual commun
:> and start unloading personal beliefs as if we'd been forming a line... like
:> that odd Dr. Seuss character that came into a peaceful town and set up his
:> factory that killed all the trees.
:
:Tell us, why are chanting, singing, dancing and worship such powerful
:spiritual practices?

Oh no, you first, you first.  You seem to have all the answers.
:
:> 
:> To perhaps help you here... imagine yourself at a personal audience with
:> Srila Prabhupada.  You are at his (lotus) feet.  You ask him, "Is it right
:> to test people's "spiritual IQ?" and then grade them on it?  WOuld you
:> do it, Gurudev?  Even though many people Love God dearly in this newsgroup
:> that I write on, do you think I should tell them in a loud manner of
:> how much better and higher "our" beliefs are?"   What, in all truthfulness
:> do you think would be his reply?  Sometimes, based on some of his writing,
:> I would guess he might actually support you.  But from what my friend
:> told me of his attitudes, he was actually quite against prosylatization.
:> Its a shame that's what ISKCON is known for in most people's minds.
:> 
:
:Srila Prabhupada himself instituted the Bhakti-shastri examination for
:the express purpose of testing the devotees' spiritual knowledge and
:knowledge of the scriptures. His examination was much more difficult
:than our simple SIQ test, which anyone with even a tiny amount of
:knowledge of God should have been able to pass.

Kalki, you're balking... answer the question.  WHAT WOULD YOU THINK HIS
REPLY WOULD BE???  Its fine that he should write such tests... he felt that
was important for his disciples.  They agreed to participate in that belief
system by accepting him as their teacher.  WE, however, have not accepted Him,
much less you, as ours.  Were you to become our teacher (although you are
teaching us so much here), such tests would be welcome.    Such a posting
was , IMO, an extremely subtle manipulation technique. Either that or you
really are as spiritually nubile as you appear.

:> When I was holding fast to my path of Yoga, and Guru Bhakti (devotion to
:> a teacher) I would often ask myself, "Would He/She do this?"  and I would
:> refrain if I could not in my heart say YES.  It moved me a long quickly, as
:> I aligned with his mastery by this method.  I wonder what question, if any,
:> you ask youself before you post to this group.
:> 
:
:Are we to understand that you are no longer holding fast to "your" path
:of Yoga?

I have since moved beyond limitations of formal system, yet I would say 
I still practice the essence of the path of seeking Union, though the outer
illusory cloak has burned in the fires of God's becoming process.  And again,
you try and skirt the issue..... If Srila Prabhupad were sitting here with
me at this terminal, would he have the arrogance to type your words into
t.r.na.  I highly doubt it.

:
:> As to the tarnished image of ISKCON, ask the average person how much they
:> like some ungrounded, spaced out youth dressed in orange shoving heavy
:> books and flowers into their hands at airports and such.  As them how they
:> feel about one of their main leaders being indicted on first degree murder
:> charges.  Ask people if they know anyone who's gotten involved with ISKCON
:> and ask them what they thought of their friend's changes after involvement
:> (if they didn't disappear tojoin the group).  
:> 
:
:In the last paragraph, you state that you were on some path of "yoga"
:and were performing "Guru bhakti", yet in this paragraph you are mocking
:those who do the same thing. You give lip-service to Srila Prabhupada
:and then you blaspheme his disciples. It is foolish and very dangerous
:to criticize the Lord's devotees in this way.

Oh you sound like an old scripture.... these external practices have little
to do with true Guru Bhakti... they have enormous potential to learn to see
Krsna in All Beings, but the purpose has been lost to the feeble minds of
most of those that practice them. Guru Bhakti happens INSIDE... its the quiet
ways in which you begin to align yourself to the enlightened nature of your
teacher... and thereunto the enlightened nature of your Self. 
Its what you do in your everyday life.... not what you do at an
altar or at a kirtan (chanting session)... these are just for show...
and I'm sure many here can find references in their own scripture that
supports that one... 
In addition, any real Teacher will tell you that it is NOT himself that you
worship, but simply him as the reflection of  what you truly are, and will
point you to your own inner teacher regularly.  And, I do NOT blaspheme 
any disciples.... I know the ecstacy of God/loving-God loving God (not a typo)
and think that if more people had the experience, the world would be
a wonderful place to be.  What I blaspheme is the behavior that is completely
disrespectful to people's preferences... like asking us to eat your
half-digested spiritual fodder.  The sheeps are in the other newsgroup.
:

:Regarding the supposed "main leader" who was indicted, if you are
:referring to Kirtanananda your facts are incorrect. He was ejected from
:ISKCON many years ago when his practices were brought to light.

Oh, was there another one?? I was referring to Bhaktivedanta.. or whatever
the name of the direct successor to Prabhupad was.  I don't want to point
fingers... its not necessary... the point is that the actions of one can
really ruin it for the many. Get my drift?  My friend was also a servant
of this fellow (now in prison, i believe) and found his energy to be
extremely out of balance.
:
:> Perhaps I've got an inside line that most poeple don't have, so maybe my
:> views are more tarnished.... but I've heard nothing but stories of strife
:> and difficulty concerning the New Vrindaban community in West Virginia.
:> Most of the problems stem because everyone has given away their power, and
:> few understand that Devotion is NOT Emotion, and that a devotional life does
:> not mean you have to adopt every trapping of a foreign culture, and that
:> you CAN have TWO feet planted firmly on this Earth and be enraptured with God
:> 
:
:The New Vrindavan community has no connection with ISKCON.

Oh give me a break.  Are you THAT out of touch with your group?  Maybe you
ought to just go ahead and reveal that you're really the leader
of "KASKU", Kalki's Society for Krishna Unconciousness.   :-)
ISKCON *FOUNDED* New Vrindaban as a new center for Vaishnav Worship.
After much political difficulty, they opened their center to be more
ecumenically oriented, but still are suffering quite a bit in terms of
internal struggles.  Where do you get your "newsfeed" from?  You need
to spend some time with some senior disciples (that can tell you about
what's really going on).

:> Why am I giving this so much energy?  I guess its because I've walked a few
:> miles in those sandals you wear now, and I know that much of mankind still
:> insists on wearing them... and that time is running out.  The days of Denial
:> are coming to a close, and putting God in personality on a cloud with a face
:> and ignoring our own Godforce are not going to resolve spiritual crisis on
:> Earth.  The path of Separation is an ancient path here.  There's a lot of joy
:> in it, religion depends upon it as its basis. But it's not going
:> to be supported on a planet who's Spiritual Destiny will be manifesting
:> itself here in the next 20 years.  There are other places/planets
:> which will be provided for people who still wish to continue the journey
:> believing themselves to be so separate from the GodForce.  Souls that still
:> wish to maintain their separation will be moved to the place where they
:> need to be.
:> 
:
:You are giving this so much energy because you are a demon who is
:envious of the Supreme Personality of Godhead and His devotees, and you
:are afraid that your bluff will be called. It certainly will.

:-) :-) No... I think you got the spelling wrong...
My name is *Dahmen*, not demon.
S'okay... lots of people make that mistake :-).  I am well-aware of my
God envy... many carry such scars from the Time of Separation.
I am also aware however, though feebly at times, of my hologramic
connection with the Nameless Wonder, and find myself wondering how I envy
something of which I am so warmly a part of.  There is no bluff... its
not my rule that there are karmic repercussions for those that do not
dust off their sandals and move to the next village (Matthew) when they are
not welcomed... that's God's.  And I've learned that through vicarious
experience, evidently something you need to get off your terminal and go
out and obtain.  It's no bluff to say that I have discovered to some degree
the Power of God that has forever been mine, and have decided to use it.
That in itself makes me look demonic, if seen through the lens of a tradition
which has, unfortunately, turned out scores and scores of divinely unempowered
people.

Like it or not, Kalki, we are entering a Magnificient Age where people 
will know their Divine connection and will live in the harmony of that
knowledge...  like thousands of melodies dancing together forming a song.
The You/Us illusion will be broken for this cycle.  Myself and many others
in this group, have incarnated to begin that journey for humanity and start
living it even while separation still festers.  It is in this spirit, that
I note that all these bits and bytes are directed at nobody but myself.
I feel so much for you because you are a big and beautiful part of what I AM.
In dialoguing with you, I dialog with the God that is within me.  I dialog
with my own ancient past and my own fears of letting go to a nameless,
dogmaless existence that I myself have feared for aeons.  Though
I appear to dance with you/me separation in these words, I dance only with the
separation within Myself... our words echoing being/thoughts that have moved
in Me for lifetimes. With this thought, I am empowered.  Perhaps when you
note that all of us on this group are simply a part of You, asking you
to look at a few things too, something really magical might just happen!!

Ours in the Heretical Thought of Unity,

STEVE
aka Devdas



-- 
Steve Dahmen ** Graphics Application Programmer
Ford Motor Company
smd@sl0091.srl.ford.com
313-594-3229 (work)