HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ray.rooney@satalink.com (Ray Rooney) 
Newsgroups: rec.arts.animation
Subject: Keane-imation  (Was: Poor writing in anime)
Date: 12 Dec 92 00:08:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Datamax/Satalink Connection * Ivyland, PA (215) 443-9434
Reply-To: ray.rooney@satalink.com (Ray Rooney) 

To: avatar@wings.micro.umn.edu (Timothy Fay)

TF>People are always making broad statements about Keane's skills, but they're
TF>usually along the lines of what a great animator he is supposed to be.  He's
TF>a good animator, but not a great one.

Keane fen may want to check out a series of books he writes and draws.
"Parables For Kids" (Yes) with Adam Raccoon. They're fully illustrated
in color. In the kids' section of larger bookstores or religion shops.

Interesting.

 * SLMR 2.1a * No, Happy Smurf, that's no bird - it's a missile! Duck!
From: bartmann@cs.tu-berlin.de (Ralf Acktories)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.animation
Subject: ANIME VS. DISNEY was Re: Cheap animation
Date: 14 Dec 1992 13:31:33 GMT
Organization: Technical University of Berlin, Germany
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: marilyn.cs.tu-berlin.de
Keywords: stubborn anime bashers

What's the general problem here ?

I haven't read any valid argument from all those Japanimation-bashers
for the last couple of days.
I think it's time to get real for some people here!

How can japanese animation hurt the animation industry ?
Let me show an example of this pathetic argumentation:
[example start]
'US-made cars are so poorly manufactured and unreliable that
their existence is hurting the whole car-industry !'
[end of example]
I can hear you all crying out now, but it is the same 'argumentation'
some of you are offering here to stomp on Japanese Animation.
Animation quality (even if it could be measured) can never be an indicator
for plot, story or subject quality.

As for those notorious complaints about too much 'Girls with Guns' Anime:
Open your eyes and look at it's message, man !
'Gallforce' for example is NOT only 'Girls with Guns'-crap as some of you
are trying to put it. It's simply a brilliant anti-war epic, reflecting
the everlasting japanese WW2 nightmare (read: Hiroshima and
Nagasaki) ! And it's message is 'simply' that nothing can be gained
in a total war ! But maybe this is too mature for some of the posters
here, anyway...

A big portion of japanese animation is reflecting either the so-called
'WW 2 nightmare' or the remains of an 800 year-old feudalism.
I can understand those simple-minded people (read: dense, stupid) who are
not able to figure these things out from a movie, BUT those people
should therefore stop posting about topics here which they don't
understand at all !

As for Disney in general - no, I won't start stompin' on him here - BUT
I am missing mature and modern storylines in his works and there is
no arguing about this point.
One recycled storyline is followed by the other in the recent Disney
movies - I am still waiting for a Disney movie dealing with urban decay,
overpopulation, war, mass destruction and the dangers of a high-
-tech-future, and, and, and !

...and don't tell me that B&theB deals with 'modern' subjects ! You
don't mean 'true love', 'fighting agains prejudices' or anything like
that ( ...topics, as old as mankind... )



--
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Newsgroups: rec.arts.animation
From: YANJUNA@YaleVM.YCC.Yale.Edu
Subject: Re: Shallowness in TLM, BATB (Was Re: Cheap Animation)
Organization: Yale University
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 92 00:40:13 EST

In article <1992Dec17.020025.18807@news2.cis.umn.edu>
avatar@wings.micro.umn.edu (Timothy Fay) writes:
 
>
>"Kevin J. Chen" (kc2w+@andrew.cmu.edu) wrote:
>>The fact that [the Beast] turned out to be
>>handsome in the end is just the traditional Disney icing on the happy
>>ending cake.
>
>No, more like typical Disney meddling with the original story.
>
>>If you happen to think this kind of romanticism is
>>silly, then so be it, but it is the heart and soul of -- well, at
>>least modern-day depictions -- classic fairy tales.
>
>If that's what you think, then perhaps you should read the original
>stories THE LITTLE MERMAID and BEAUTY AND THE BEAST were based on.
>
 
   Jeez, not this again.
   I addressed this issue in a post about three days ago.  The only thing
left to say is; If one wants to see it, and if he  cannot find it out there,
he should make it himself (or if he's not an animator, than finance it.
That's what Walt did.)
   I think there are perfectly logical reasons why the original versions
of the tales could not be shown "as is" in a "Family Film" circumstance.
(Addressed in earlier posts, thus not repeated here.)
 If there truly IS an audience for the darker fairy tale animation,
then why don't the person who is complaining take the opportunity to
make the darker film, instead of trying to force others (who are doing
very well, thank you) to make it and shoulder the (probable) loss?
>
 
   Junsok Yang
From: pmm34393@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Dr. Vincent Vaugn )
Newsgroups: rec.arts.animation
Subject: Re: GI Joe episodes--the "films"
Date: 12 Dec 92 19:48:58 GMT
Article-I.D.: news.Bz5wDn.Bzq
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana

In article <Dec.12.00.54.06.1992.4081@busboys.rutgers.edu> fjohnson@busboys.rutgers.edu (Floyd Johnson) writes:
>My memory is a little fuzzy on the miniseries ("film length") GI Joe
>episodes (these may have qualified for OAV status). I know of these,
>in order of airing  
>
>1. The pilot (no subtitle):Joe and Cobra forces travel around the
>world to secure three "catalysts of matter" for a teleportation
>device. 
>
>2. "The Revenge Of Cobra":Cobra steals a "Laser Core", using it to
>power a Weather Dominator. The device is turned against itself, and
>its three main components end up in different parts of the world. (I
>think this one introduced Zartan and the Dreadnocks.)
>
>3. "The Pyramid of Darkness":Launched the half-hour syndicated series.
>Cobra sets up an energy-damping field around the Earth, the pinnacle
>being a satellite. (There's a really cool sequence--well, to a
>14-year-old--between Lady Jaye and Flint during a battle.)
>
>4. "Arise, Serpentor! Arise!":Convinced that the Cobra Commander is
>basically insane, Dr. Mindbender begins work on a composite clone,
>based on the DNA of the major military figures in history. This one
>introduced Sgt. Slaughter, who is also "sampled"; this is why only he
>could kick Serpentor's ass--I think there's a scene in which
>characters are placing bets on the outcome of their tussle.
>
>5. GI Joe:The Movie (This may be incorrect.):According to you netfolk,
>they originally had in mind a script entitled, "The Most Dangerous Man
>in America". The script that made it to the storyboard artists,
>however, reveals the true nature of the Cobra Commander:he's
>apparently an alien, disfigured by a lab accident. This also
>introduces Duke Hauser's (half?) brother, 2Lt. Falken as at first a
>screw-up, then a trainee under Sgt. Slaughter, and finally the guy who
>takes Serpentor down. It seems to prepare us for the DIC series, as we
>also meet Serana (sp?)

Don't forget #6, Operation DragonFire? The whole purpose of this one
was to get rid of Serpentor and bring back the original Cobra 
Commander. I found it kind of interesting that the cartoon Cobra
Commander wore the uniform that the comic book killer of Cobra
Commander wore. 


-- 

Send e-mail to: pmm34393@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu
From: lgb2@po.CWRU.Edu (Linda G. Brashear)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.animation
Subject: Re: Kevin-style Aladdin review (thanks Ryan!)
Date: 16 Dec 1992 05:36:56 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: slc5.ins.cwru.edu


The difference between "Somewhere out there" and a song like "Beauty
and the Beast" is that you could take the former as something completely
independent from the movie.  If you had never heard of "An American Tale"
and heard "Somewhere.." on the radio, you'd just think it was a new love 
song, not having any clue that it was sung by brother and sister mouse 
children.  There is no reference in the song to the movie;  the song is
therefore somewhat independent of the movie.  Obviously, Beauty and the
Beast (song) is blatantly linked to the movie, with references to the movie
from the title to the things expressed (barely even friends, then somebody
bends,...etc) that occured in the movie plot.  Same thing with "Whole New
World" from Aladdin--references to "princess" and "magic carpet ride."
These songs cannot be taken as independent from the movies, because they're
derived directly from them.  "Somewhere" really has precious little to do
with An American Tale, so it's not necessarily linked to the movie in 
public perception.
End of dissertation.
Linda
-- 
"But the angel said to them, 'Do not be afraid.  I bring you good news of great
joy that will be for all the people.  Today in the town of David a Savior has
been born to you;  he is Christ the Lord."---Luke 2:10-11
**********************MERRY CHRISTMAS, HAPPY HOLIDAYS************************
From: Kevin.Kline@ofa123.fidonet.org
Newsgroups: rec.arts.animation
Subject: Re: Japanimation reviews con't (may contain SPOILERS)
X-Sender: newtout 0.02 Nov 17 1992
Date: 13 Dec 92  10:27:34

 RPG> Not one single plot point do you mention about 
 RPG> Beautiful Dreamer.  Not one
 RPG> single mention of the story being an allegory of 
 RPG> what exactly IS reality
 RPG> and what ARE dreams, and what dreams are.
 There wasn't anything WORTH mentioning about the plot!!!  It seemed the plot 
was totally secondary to all the sexual jokes and perversion going on in the
movie.  That Ataru guy is so wimpy it wasn't even funny!!  It seemed like all 
the saucered-eye girls were in control and the guys were being perverts!
 RPG>       Above all else, Urusei Yatsura is a COMEDY 
 RPG> you IDIOT!, there are 
 RPG> supposed to be jokes in it, and at my last count, you can count the 
 RPG> number of jokes that involve Ataru's lechery on 
 RPG> one hand and still have some
 RPG> fingers left.  

 RPG>       The whole balance between an intriguing 
 RPG> story and slapstick-like
 RPG> comedy is what MAKE Beautiful Dreamer so good.
 Let's not forget Lum taking her top off several times or the numerous times
the men (who look as wimpy as Ataru) go and re-arrange women's underwear when 
they are at Ataru's home.  
 I wouldn't call this slapstick-like comedy at all!  Slapstick is like what is 
in LOONEY TUNES, TOM & JERRY, etc.  This is more perversion (not to mention
Lum always beating up Ataru).  Does Lum believe in dressing normally and NOT
beating up Ataru or anybody else?  
 RPG> the "review" (stretching the term) posted 
 RPG> previously shows what little if
 RPG> any interest in actually WATCHING the shows and 
 RPG> shows only to prove that 
 RPG> indeed this person can spell "slut".
 How come you totally ignored my reviews on Robot Carnival and Naida also???  
Why must you just simply respond to one show that I didn't like?  You make it 
sound like I hate all Japanimation and that is not true.  I would appriciate
it if you would read all the reviews I posted and not just comment about the
one that you didn't like.  Thanks.

--- Maximus 2.00
Newsgroups: rec.arts.animation
From: kennehra@craft.camp.clarkson.edu (Rich"TheMan"Kennehan)
Subject: Re: Japanimation reviews con't (may contain SPOILERS)
Organization: Clarkson University
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 18:49:15 GMT



Kevin, you would'nt be any chance related to a guy named CARL MACEK,
would you?????

- Rich
  kennehra@logic.camp.clarkson.edu
From: Kevin.Kline@ofa123.fidonet.org
Newsgroups: rec.arts.animation
Subject: Re: Japanimation reviews con't (may contain SPOILERS)
X-Sender: newtout 0.02 Nov 17 1992
Date: 14 Dec 92  04:31:56

 RPG> My opiion: Kevin Kline reviews of RC and Nadia
 RPG> RC: BITS without "saucer-eyed sluts"===good
 RPG>     BITS WITH    "saucer-eyed sluts"===bad

 RPG> Nadia:  Good if it hadn't been for all the "Saucer-eyed sluts".



>sound like I hate all Japanimation and that is 
>not true.  I would appriciate
>it if you would read all the reviews I posted and 
>not just comment about the
>one that you didn't like.  Thanks.


 RPG> If the reviews had revealed any differing patterns, I would have.
 Well sorry if you thought that way... Sorry if I happened to like all the
parts in Robot Carnival that were well done and the animation was outstanding. 
 I DID not see the same type of animation in those with the saucered-eye
girls, the plots for those were more typical of what I have seen in most
Japanimation like that.  Whereas the one wihout the saucered-eye girls and
typical plot had something different to offer and a sight to see.  
 BTW, Lum is always wearing a Bikini, I guess that is NORMAL... Let's have all 
the women dress in bikini's then right??  (I know your smiling, don't deny
it!) :)

--- Maximus 2.00
From: Kevin.Kline@ofa123.fidonet.org
Newsgroups: rec.arts.animation
Subject: Re: ANIME VS. DISNEY was Re: Cheap animation
X-Sender: newtout 0.02 Nov 17 1992
Date: 15 Dec 92  04:02:38

 PMB> I think that this is the problem. In creating 
 PMB> 'their own niche' they have
 PMB> systematically strangled the animation industry in the US. Through a
 PMB> combination of near-billion dollar advertising 
 PMB> budgets (well at least it
 PMB> SEEMS that way) and absolutely merciless self-
 PMB> promotion, they have created
 PMB> the illusion that THEIR way is the only RIGHT way. 
 PMB> In any review of ANY
 PMB> non-Disney (Note the big "D") animated film, from 
 PMB> WATERSHIP DOWN to HEY,
 PMB> GOOD LOOKIN' to LAPUTA, the so-called 'critic' spends several 
 PMB> thousand words
 PMB> forming an opinion that can just as easily be said 
 PMB> in three words: "It's not
 PMB> Disney."
You may have a point there.  I was angry when a reviewer out here for the LA
TIMES was really down on Laputa because he said "it wasn't DISNEY".  But I
think what has happened is that Disney (at least their last 3 films) has
SPOILED us with their awesome animation an character designs, and anything
that looks a notch or two below is considred "totally inferior" to Disney.   
 That is too bad because the awesome animation that Disney does is quite
expensive and they can only do like 1 per year at the most and that isn't just 
enough to satisfy most animation fans.  
 Stuff like Miyazaki and quality Japanimation do fill the void and hopefully
other companies both in Japan and the US can be in that area (1-2 notches
below Disney) and produce some good stuff.  the problem is trying to get
people to realize that you can't have Disney all the time and that $$$ is a
big part of what Disney does.  Of course you just can't go down to the bottom 
of the barrel and start pulling a Central Park Media (i.e. "I Give My All")
either!!!

--- Maximus 2.00
Newsgroups: rec.arts.animation
From: midnight@mdnite.enet.dec.com (Dr. Midnight)
Subject: Re: RESCUERS DOWN UNDER
Reply-To: midnight@mdnite.enet.dec.com
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 19:00:20 GMT


Enrique Conty writes:
>>So what DID you see in RDU other than what I described above?


Well, I won't even pretend to be the person you were really addressing, but
I'll throw my $.02 in anyway.

At first and even second viewings, I had to agree, Rescuers Down Under seemed
rather weak, especially when compared to Disney's previous offering, The Little
Mermaid.  Hell, there wasn't even any music.  :)

But after watching it another time recently, it actually isn't all that bad. 
The plot didn't seem quite as lame as I remembered it, the mice heroes were
more palatable and I even thought the poacher came off as less buffoonish.  The
animation was degrees better than what I remembered it and the detail very,
very nice.   

I wouldn't consider it under-rated, I would consider it under-viewed.  It
should have done better than it did while out in the theatres, but it was a
throwback to kinder, gentler, without Ashman and Menken music Disney days and
after the Little Mermaid, people were probably expecting something other than
what they got.  

Also, as I later found out, the movie this was a sequel to was not very good at
all.  Since the ads for RDU (to my best recollection) seemed to push at
"Bernard and Bianca being Back!", those folks who remembered the original
probably weren't chomping at the bit for a rehash, and those who hadn't seen
the originial probably didn't get sucked in by the "Return of..." marketing
ploy.

Then again, it could be people aren't as intrigued at seeing anthropomorphic
mice as they used to be.  :)

Just my shot in the dark.


Dr. Midnight
(alias Kim Rivers mdnight@mdnite.enet.dec.com)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
the opinions expressed above should not be confused as being those of my
employer.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Newsgroups: rec.arts.animation
From: conty@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (E. Kontei)
Subject: Re: Sherlock Hound (was defending animation)
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 18:42:04 GMT

In article <1992Dec13.115716.16356@news2.cis.umn.edu>, avatar@wings.micro.umn.edu (Timothy Fay) writes:
> "The Dogs of Bowserville" is also a good pick because (I believe) it
> contains the episode "The Blue Ruby"--one of the few personally directed
> by Miyazaki.

Unless I'm mistaken, Miyazaki only directed the first 6 episodes of the
series.  The first five (including the one mentioned above) are in the
first tape, TALES OF MYSTERY.

> It's fun, fast-paced, and has not one, but two _dynamite_
> chase scenes in it.

Not to mention the classic line:
	"I'm SICK of being an intellectual criminal!"  <BLAM!!>

> Not to be missed!

Ditto!
-- 
			    E n r i q u e  C o n t y
			The Incredible Man-with-no-Life
			      jester@ihlpm.att.com
		    Disclaimer: You're not dealing with AT&T
Newsgroups: rec.arts.animation
From: emru@CAM.ORG (Emru Townsend)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.animation
Subject: Re: Cheap animation
Keywords: Some Old Sh*t
Date: 14 Dec 92 05:34:48 GMT
Organization: MegaCorp Central Complex

In article <lin2knINNlfq@priddy.cs.utexas.edu> andrean@cs.utexas.edu (Andre A. Nurwono) writes:
>>>Disney knows all about running the same thing over and over and over
>>
>>Yes, but the Japanese have MASTERED it.  They rehash the same stuff just
>>as badly if not worse.  
>
>Disney is ONLY ONE company that only produces ONE type of animation -->
>for the 'family' i.e. for kids.
>HAHAHAHAHA!!! And you think most Disney classics are ORIGINAL stories ?
>Most Disney classics (which are up to movie quality productions) are
>based on OLD CHILDREN BED TIME STORIES which has gone on for CENTURIES,
>which is not innovation, BTW. And many original stories were butchered
>to make a typical Disney 'happy ending' *sniff happy happy joy joy* (blech!)
>(sic)

In case you didn't know it, most of the bed times stories are themselves
adaptations.  (And what's wrong with adaptations?  There are a hell of a
lot of really good adaptations out, in various media...)

>>The Japs have really improved their animation techniques but you would
>>think they would put a little bit of the budget into hiring a writer for
>>their shows.  Most of the animation I've seen from them (The ones that I
>>would consider good) are visually astounding but lack even a remotely 
>>interesting story.  This can only last for about 5 minutes.  After that
>>the movie is just moving pictures with all style, no substance.  
>>
>HOLY COW ?!?!? YOU DON'T REALLY MEAN THAT DON'T YOU !?!??!?!?
>By golly, I always thought it was always the other way around nowadays.
>It would seem that you only understand simple stories w/o complex
>plots.

Um, I have to partially agree with Kline here.  An awful lot of the anime
that's popular here is cliche-ridden.  Sorry.

>Lodoss Wars = Shoguns ??? Its more western than you think. Whoever got
>the concept of Dungeons & Dragons at the first place ?

But Lodoss Wars is an adaptation... oops.


>I hereby declare all American 'toon producers are dumb Jackasses who can't
>see the overwhelming D&D market out there -- Lodoss was an example
>of WHAT COULD SELL MORE THAN DISNEY'S MERMAID ETC AND YOU CALL IT 
>NON-DESCRIPT ???

There's been a lot of fantasy-oriented animation out in North America
over the years, from SatAM kidvid to feature-length stuff for adults.

Some titles, off the cuff: Lord of the Rings, Fire and Ice, Wizards,
Heavy Metal (SF and fantasy), Dungeons and Dragons, Thundarr the
Barbarian...

>Ha! You haven't seen it !! Have you even seen the COMICS or any screen-
>pictures of it ?!?! Gurgi was definitely anthropomorphic.
>Forbidden Planet !?? 'Ugh!!!' That was a 50's movie, man! Get real!!
>Live on !

What's wrong with looking backwards?  Are you suggesting we ignore the
history of film/animation/television/comics/literature, just to keep
"up to date"?

-- 
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From: bartmann@cs.tu-berlin.de (Ralf Acktories)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.animation
Subject: Re: ANIME VS. DISNEY was Re: Cheap animation
Date: 16 Dec 1992 13:47:45 GMT
Organization: Technical University of Berlin, Germany
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: audrey.cs.tu-berlin.de

Kevin.Kline@ofa123.fidonet.org  writes in <n11a9t@ofa123.fidonet.org>:


[ stuff deleted ]

> For those who are upset with Disney not doing films that deal more with
>reality, I don't see why... Animation was meant to be a form of escape from
>the real world and I don't think Disney with their reputation wantto mess that 
>up too much.  

You didn`t get the point again, Kevin - Animation is just another media like
television, books or radio !
It is NOT just meant to be a form of escape from the real world BECAUSE
people like you only PREFER it ONLY that way.

I am not upset about Disney`s `lack of reality` ! I therefore respect
other people`s tastes and I respect people who (only) like Disney.

So, what`s the problem with you ?
Just respect other people`s tastes in the same way and don`t try
to change their tastes with your useless Anime bashing !

> You want Miyazaki to do babes-in-armor?  Just like there are other companies 
>that will do other stuff.  The same is true in Japan, if you want
>babes-in-armor you look for the AIC (whatever that means) logo on the
>Japanimation you are buying.

What`s so wrong with `babes in armor` then ?

Nobody is forcing you with a gun to watch these shows, so just leave
them there - they won`t hurt anybody !

I personally doubt that you have seen any of the AIC (Artmic, a japanese
studio, y`know...) shows - you would have known what the AIC logo stands
for then...

...anyway this is all a waste of time and energy, sigh....


If you really want to know what all the net readers think about your
ideas - why don`t we (you) organize a nice poll then...?

--
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Newsgroups: rec.arts.animation