From: altheimm@nextnet.csus.edu (Murray Altheim)
Subject: Re: Hitler and Christianity
Organization: California State University: Sacramento
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 00:45:51 GMT

In article <1992Aug25.223444.19219@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com> billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson) writes:
>ciaran@county.lmt.mn.org (Ciaran Benson) writes:

[...a long response to a post on whether Ciaran should be allowed to
state her opinion on whether pagans use ritual...]

You know, I've been reading along for the past week or so, and of course
noticed Bill being back. And of course remembered the little flame fest from
earlier in the summer. And you know, I remember the part of the whole thing
that irritated me the most.

Bill, do you ever really say anything? I can't for the life of me remember
you ever ADDING anything to a discussion, just pick pick picking away at
a post, always very logical and even tempered, but seldom providing any 
positive feedback. You seem to commonly ignore the main points, or the 
attempts at humor, and instead rattle somebody's cage or pedantically impose
your supposedly global definitions, criticizing other's ideas in the process.

Why the obsession with definitions? You yourself claim the validity of each
person's definition, criticize others' definitions you disagree with, and at 
the same time promote your own ideas as if they were agreed upon globally.
And then you seem surprised that anyone might find your ideas unacceptable.

I think few people would attempt to define either P/paganism, P/pagan religion,
or the scope of this group so narrowly as to exclude earth-worshipping pagans,
atheist pagans, or probably anyone who WANTED to be called a pagan. This is
an INCLUSIVE grouping, not an EXCLUSIVE one. And yes, whether you like it or
not, both common usage inside and outside the pagan community refers to 
paganism as a religious grouping. IMO, how anyone defines "religion" is up to
them, and many a case has been made that the atheistic worldview is also
a religious worldview. It really doesn't matter that much.

And why do you care? This thread got rightfully dropped a long time ago,
the repercussions of it still in the care many of us now take when using
upper and lower case letters for P/pagan. And what's the point? Does it
take us ANYWHERE? Does it promote understanding and communication? In a 
different thread a discussion of the ever-mounting threat of the religous
and political right goes on. When looking at the bigger picture, of people 
physically and emotionally assaulted because of their beliefs, of losing
their jobs and friends, doesn't it make this discussion seem petty?

>You should see some of the mail I get when I defend the Satanists
>or the Christians. :-)  The best thing to do with such hate mail
>is just delete it. If there is reasonable arguement, then pay
>attention - you might learn something. Otherwise, it is not worth
>even the effort of reading through.

Why bother? You'll get less hate mail. If you like hate mail, then you
deserve it. I really don't see the point. Are you the "Zorro" of Internet?

>More than likely. It takes a bit to separate the two. I treat e-mail
>and the net as separate entities. I pretend that all unsolicited e-mail
>is the same as junk mail. I scan it and, if it appears to be interesting,
>then I read it - otherwise it goes in the bit bucket.
>
>No need to apologize - you have every right to state your own opinions.
>Don't let some people who disagree stop you.
>
>Bill

I'd probably have e-mailed you rather than posting this publicly, but from
the above I doubt it'd get read. I have no desire to get into a long and 
protracted argument over your methods. From your posts I gather what I 
have to say will be ignored anyway, but as you say, I have every right to 
state my own opinions regardless of whether anyone gives me "permission" to
do so. But that's not why I express myself.

Blessings, (no sarcasm either)

Murray

-- 
Murray M. Altheim      "Ils ont l'orteil de Bouc, & d'un Chevreil l'oreille,
Instructional Consultant    La corne d'un Chamois, & la face vermeille
CSU, Sacramento          Comme un rouge Croissant: & dancent toute nuict
altheimm@csus.edu       Dedans un carrefour, ou pres d'une eau qui bruict."