From: pkammer@liege.ics.uci.edu (Peter Kammer)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Simple Question
Date: 28 Jan 93 09:00:50 GMT

In <Jan.27.00.15.35.1993.2546@athos.rutgers.edu> cmtan@iss.nus.sg (Tan Chade Meng - with Dan) writes:

I'm one of the people who replied to your original article.  I'm going
to try as hard as I can not to simply repeat myself, but rather to
clarify.  It seems to me you're dealing with an issue that is a major
stumbling block to our understanding of God.

Let me start with the reasons that were presented to you.

>(1)  For Everybody to Love Him first.
>(2)  To prove that Man cannot live well without His Laws
>(3)  To test if we can all love Him volunterily  (This is probably the
>     worse answer for if something can/will happen, He WILL know 'cause
>     He is omniscient, He doesn't have to "test".  Those who gave me
>     this answer seemed to have sized Him down).
>(4)  He set a Law to disallow Himself from interfering.
>(5)  Some permutation of and modifications to the above.

I agree with you emphatically on number 3.  This seems to be a common
concept and I think you hit the problems with it exactly.  I really
don't see why He would wish to prove anything to us, or that he would
formally limit himself either.

In reference to your example (the man who drinks himself insane).  I do
think that implanting the love in him would be an interference with his
free will.  Let me be a little more specific about why it seems to me
free will is important.

As you point out, we presume God is omnipotent.  We can not possibly be
here to be simply performing some function for him.  God simply couldn't
have an use for a predestined people guarenteed to do what he wanted.

It makes some sense to ask why humanity was created this way, with a
tendency to sin, or at least an ability.  It seems to be that creating
man with a "tendency toward good" or an inability to sin would be
cheating free will in a certain sense.  That God wants us to make a
free choice is a dominant theme in Christianity.

>        Some people suggested that constituted "reprogramming".  But if
>an evil man becomes a Christian, repents, and becomes loving, isn't that
>"reprogramming" too?  The most important thing is not what u do to that
>man, but whether u have made him Love more.

	I don't consider this "reprogramming" at least in the general
sense.  A conversion must be a matter of choice in order to be valid.
I readily admit (and languish) that some conversion efforts seem to
smack of brain-washing methodologies.  Conversion should be something
personally obtained (perhaps with the help of education,)
not something inflicted on you.  We may, however, have different
perceptions of human psychology and responsibility.

>        Overall, I STILL have not got any good answers.  I guess there are
>simply questions even Christians cannot answer.  However, I appreciate
>everybody's enthuasism to help me learn.  If anybody has a REAL answer
>that does not contradict the Christian Love, I'll be glad to see it.
>Otherwise, I would much more appreciate an honest "I don't know" than
>some illogical answer out-of-tune with the spirit of Love.

	I'm not sure this entirely fair.  I don't think you can expect a
cut and dried answer to a question that has given theologians cause for
thought for centuries.  People are making their best attempts to deal
with a difficult issue.
	If we had a little better idea of why we were here (mortals on
earth) we might be able to put human suffering in perspective,
particular the suffering which seems untraceable to sin.  I don't really
mean to trivialize suffering, but I think it may be a mistake to make it
the end-all-be-all of evil.

The existence of evil and suffering in the world and the knowledge
of it seems to have an effect on the nature of our being.  The world
would be a very different place w/o the presence of any human
suffering.  Would it be a better place if we knew we were protected?
Or would it be a impediment to our reaching our potential?

It's not really an area with a easy answer, and I suspect your not going
to find one to completely satisfy you.

-Peter K.
------------
Peter Kammer               We are the music makers,
pkammer@ics.uci.edu           And we are the dreamers of dreams,
203peter@vax.stmarytx.edu  Yet we are the movers and shakers     --Arthur
BITNET: 203PETER@STMARYTX     Of the world for ever, it seems.    O'Shaugnessy