HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: chungdan@leland.Stanford.EDU (Zhong Qi Iao (Daniel))
Subject: [buying] Re: Save the Planet and the Economy at the Same time!
Reply-To: chungdan@leland.stanford.edu
Organization: DSO, Stanford University
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 92 22:17:13 GMT


     (Mr.?) Josh Person said,

> Suburban folk can do to help out though.  For instance, 
> Price Club is an excellent idea, bulk shopping reduces
> your _car_ trips to the store.  

     To arrange to reduce car trips, you need *many* people to buy in bulk.
Price club is usually far, because there are not many stores.  Driving
there takes energy.

     By the way, how can price club be so cheap?

						Daniel Chung (Mr.)
Newsgroups: sci.environment,sci.energy
From: dean@vexcel.com (Dean Alaska)
Subject: Re: Nuclear Power and Climate Change
Organization: VEXCEL Corporation, Boulder CO
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 23:02:40 GMT

In article <1992Dec31.210611.27511@kestrel.edu> king@reasoning.com (Dick King) writes:
>
>However, solar panels are designed to occupy area and need to be light enpough
>to steer.
>
I think protective coverings could be designed for solar collectors in
areas that have bad weather, but I do admit that any decent containment
should not have trouble with a storm.
>
>-dk


-- 
==============================================================================
A thought for the holidays:
   "Wine is living proof that God loves us and likes to see us happy"
	- Benjamin Franklin			dean@vexcel.com
From: 471-1@.arizona.edu (E. Shane Jimerfield)
Newsgroups: sci.environment
Subject: RE: SACRED MOUNTAINS OF THE WORLD
Date: 31 Dec 92 19:37:28 GMT
Organization: University of Arizona, Tucson
Originator: 471-1@air.atmo.arizona.edu

from the posting about:
SACRED MOUNTAINS OF THE WORLD by Edwin Bernbaum.  Sierra Club
Books, 100 Bush St., 13th Floor, San Francisco, CA  94104. 
Illustrated, index, notes, bibliography.  291 pp., $25.00 paper. 
0-87156-508-0

[some deleted]

>     Along with the over 120 lavish color photographs, Bernbaum
>details several of the controversies that have drawn religious
>organizations into battle with developers that have threatened to
>bulldoze the sites, notably those held sacred by indigenous tribes. 
>The Mt. Graham (Arizona) telescope controversy between the
>University of Arizona and the Apaches, though, is not mentioned.
>
Does anyone know why??

-- 
Take 'er easy.... Shane
.watch out for the lightning (a large-scale high-tension natural electric
discharge in the atmosphere)......!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
..informal... a sudden usually improbable stroke of fortune.......
Newsgroups: sci.environment
From: dean@vexcel.com (Dean Alaska)
Subject: Who ignores science?
Organization: VEXCEL Corporation, Boulder CO
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 17:36:20 GMT

In response to those who only complain about environmentalists ignoring 
science:

	WASHINGTON - U.S. Forest Service officials are suppressing a
	report they had requested of their own wildfile biologists
	on the Tongass National Forest in Alaska in order to allow
	timber companies to continue logging the largest and oldest
	trees.

	The report, obtained through the Freedom of Information Act,
	concluded that unless logging operations are scaled back by
	nearly a fourth, several species of animal, including
	goshawks, owls, brown bears and wolves, are at risk of
	disappearing from large parts of the forest.  All are found
	nowhere else in the world.

	The biologists, who have worked for the last two years to
	document the wildlife species that need mature, old-growth
	forests to survive, say they have been given poor performance
	reviews, directed to water down their findings and told not
	to release their report.
-- 
==============================================================================
A thought for the holidays:
   "Wine is living proof that God loves us and likes to see us happy"
	- Benjamin Franklin			dean@vexcel.com
Newsgroups: sci.environment
From: jgacker@news.gsfc.nasa.gov (James G. Acker)
Subject: Re: has anybody heard of this letter?
Organization: Goddard Space Flight Center
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 16:41:04 GMT

Mark Wilson (mwilson@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM) wrote:
: In <115110001@misty.boeing.com> small@misty.boeing.com (steve small) writes:

: |I read a very brief newspaper article a couple of weeks ago describing
: |an open letter signed by about 200 prominent scientists from around the
: |world (a number of them Nobel winners) which was soon to be sent to world
: |political leaders.  Apparently the letter predicts catastrophic consequences
: |in a few decades at most if fundamental changes in environmental policy are
: |not made soon.

Wilson's hot-headed comment:
: It has always amazed me how just because somebody starts putting Phd. after
: their name, they begin to feel they are experts in all fields.
: Unless these so called scientists have their degrees in meterology, their
: opinions are worth no more than yours or mine.
: 
: -- 
: Mob rule doesn't become any prettier, just because the mob start to call itself
: a government.
: It ain't charity if you are using someone else's money.
: Mark.Wilson@AtlantaGA.NCR.com

	Note that the text says "environmental policy" and not greenhouse
gas warming.  A Ph.D. in groundwater hydrology might know something about
groundwater contamination due to a lower water table.  A Ph.D. in
chemical oceanography might know something about methyl mercury contamination
in the oceanic food chain.  READ before you react.

	Jim Acker
	jgacker@neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov
Newsgroups: sci.environment
From: dean@vexcel.com (Dean Alaska)
Subject: Re: Sheep in Organizations
Organization: VEXCEL Corporation, Boulder CO
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1992 16:37:01 GMT

In article <1992Dec24.161708.1@acad3.alaska.edu> nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu writes:
>
>Problem with what you are saying about land in trust and all that stuff, is
>that is either fedalism in the old Norman model or god I hate to say it
>Socialism.. Problme is we are supposed to be a democracy based on free person
>and the ability to make wealth. Why would I go to the Welfare office? Im not a
>brain dead pan handler from some parts of the US.. I work for my bread.
>You must have me mistaken with some who lives back east.. As far as I know most
>of the people I know work and find welfare a sad solution.
>
>Okay, if I go with what you are saying, next time you want to buy or
>sell property (land I mean) all US citizens have the right to stop it.
>Or at the minimum you need to get the Federal Governments okay to sell or buy
>it.. Hum, maybe that is what we have, state feudalism.
>
>When the founding fathers started our nation is was becuase of economic
>reasons, they were all land owners.. Do you think they would liek it that they
>did not own the land, but were only borrowing it.. Read up what feudalism is
>and you find what Im talking about..
>
>
>Michael Adams
>Alias: Morgoth/Ghost Wheel 
>nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu

That most of Alaska's parks are so inaccessable demonstrates that they are
more focused on habitat preservation that tourist recreation.  In fact, I
believe there is a controversy now about development in Denali between
rangers and concessionaires.

While Victor talks of holding land in trust, I think it is more accurate
to say that a persons use of their land cannot infringe or harm others
land, including wild lands.  The problem is that we are learning more
and more about new ways of harm - and this limits the landowners use
in ways that nobody thought of previously.  While Alaskan lands are
vast (I have visited them many times), they are also fragile, and not
on such a different scale when compared with the lower 48 west as a whole.
And the lower 48 west was also once seen as endless.  In Alaska,
the real limitation has not been the scale, but the locale.  Only so
many people were willing to brave the conditions to exploit the land.
With technology, there is more protection from the conditions and
resource exploitation is a greater problem.  I sympathize with the
problems of individual landowners in Alaska who must deal with
endless red tape.  It is the large resource extraction companies
that pose the problems, not the individual residents, by and large.
-- 
==============================================================================
A thought for the holidays:
   "Wine is living proof that God loves us and likes to see us happy"
	- Benjamin Franklin			dean@vexcel.com
Newsgroups: sci.environment,talk.politics.misc,alt.activism
From: miles@ms.uky.edu (Stephen D. Grant)
Subject: Re: Idiotic Japan Bashing
    <1992Dec28.170740.17094@oracle.us.oracle.com> 
    <1hq206INNq1f@spim.mti.sgi.com> 
    <1992Dec30.013645.16214@oracle.us.oracle.com> 
    <1hvbc8INNa6h@spim.mti.sgi.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1993 07:18:07 GMT
Organization: University of Kentucky, USA. -5 GMT

A resolution:
Having been a long-time fan of many Japanese products for my entire life
(I'm 32) I have decided to make a commitment to NOT buy anything Japanese
if possible. I own a Toyota (my second bought new). I have owned 8 Japanese
motorcycles. I have/do own/owned Japanese electronics, cameras etc. But no
more. After becomming aware of the Japanese prejudice towards "outsiders" and
their illegal and under-handed tactics used in their economic war of the world,
I am one lost consumer of Japanese products. I also believe we should legally
prosecute our political leaders that screwed the American people for the
Japanese. This is only how I feel.                                

Newsgroups: sci.environment,talk.environment
From: cls@truffula.sj.ca.us (Cameron L. Spitzer)
Subject: Re: Why do they hate us?
Organization: Save the Humans!
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 92 06:38:47 GMT
Summary: drivel!

In article <b7PS02gG2ft901@JUTS.ccc.amdahl.com> jjh00@diag.amdahl.com
 (Joel Hanes) writes:
>   carl@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU (Carl J Lydick) writes:
>>
>> Who was hurt at three mile island?
>
>No one.  The reactor accident at Three Mile Island cannot be shown
>to have harmed any person in any way whatsoever.  Fact.


Clearly, Mr. Hanes is not a General Public Utilities ratepayer;
that group is still paying.
The financial damage to the community served by the reactor was
substantial: electric rates rose by over 40% as the operator passed
some of the costs of the failure to its consumers.
A reasonable person might conclude that community was harmed.

Nor, it seems, is Mr. Hanes an investor in nuclear power.  (Excluding 
emotional investment, of course!)  That coverup (you do remember the 
coverup, don't you, Joel?) and its failure dealt a crippling blow to 
the dying nuclear fission business: after the WPPS default and the 
attempted TMI coverup, no North American securities analyst will ever 
again take seriously the platitudes and assurances of the fission
industry's spokespersons (and rightly so, say I).  A multibillion
dollar industry, born of the second Red Scare and killed by its own
insane hubris!
A reasonable person might conclude the GPU bondholders were harmed.
Then again, we could say their loss was a well-deserved lesson.



Cameron Spitzer in San Jose

***  He who forgets history is doomed to talk nonsense, too.
Newsgroups: sci.environment

 |/yodaiken@chelm.cs.umass.edu (victor yodaiken):
 |
 |>>(VY) [Reference to Marxist arguments indicating (at least minimal)
 |>>      familiarity with the works of Marx].
 |
 |>(CL)  [Ad hominem effusion indicating ignorance of Marx, contempt for
 |>       history, and inability to comprehend the language]
 |>Ah, yes, Yackadamn again. Victor, can't you see the difference between theory
 |>and practice?  Sure, it SOUNDS good to say that Communism will eliminate the
 |
 |(VY) Carl, you are a contemptible fool,
 |and you have neither the patience nor the
 |intellect required to understand plain english. Kindly return to your
 |regular reading of teenage-sci-fi novels and leave me alone.
 |                                                   ^^

Heartily seconded. Substitute the plural of the first person object pronoun.

Bo Curry
From: nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu
Subject: Re: Bandwidth burner+
Organization: University of Alaska Fairbanks
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 00:33:49 GMT

In article <725692777snx@tillage.DIALix.oz.au>, gil@tillage.DIALix.oz.au (Gil Hardwick) writes:
> 
> In article <2934731029.0.p00004@psilink.com> p00004@psilink.com writes:
> 
>  > May I take the liberty of encouraging a policy of non-response to this 
>  > poor soul? I ask this as a favor, since I don't have the equivalent of a 
>  > kill file and no way of prefiltering posts; I have to get all in order 
>  > to get any, at a clunky 9.6 kb/sec.
>  >  
>  > Believe me, I hate that snippy net-police mentality as much as anybody; 
>  > this is a cry for mercy.
> 
> Sorry, but you have to suffer like the rest of us in the name of free
> speech. Hell, why not make the guy feel welcome, part of the group, on
> a substantial learning curve as we all are, and less likely to feel
> like sniping?
> 
> I mean, if he is out of work he is probably not in too good a mood
> anyway. Kill files are the silliest thing I ever heard of.
> 
> Gil
> 
Thank you Gil for defending me.. I am out of work becuase I quit, the job was
not working out and just not me.. I am finally realizing no matter how much I
want to be a "soldier" I just don't fit the mold, atleast of a peace time
soldier.. I was not asking for mercy, just understanding of where Im coming
from.. Im just here to learn and maybe raise some ideas, and to 
get some ideas.. I have a possible job to two, one as a Cab Driver for now, and
later I hope to Teach History (yes another mindless government job, I hope
not). I finally realized that I do have a brain, and that my back is not how I
want to live by. Military is good at back building, but mind, Im not sure.
Sorry if this is somethng not environmental science and all, but 
Im having fun, if anything to raise another opinion, than the normal
stereotypical enviro-freak or slave of the mega-corps of brain dead
bureaucrat. 

Michael Adams alias Ghost Wheel/Morgoth NSMCA@acad3.alaska.edu
Crazy Gusik in Nome, AK..
From: mwilson@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM (Mark Wilson)
Newsgroups: sci.environment
Subject: Re: Personnel Response versus Fed Response.
Date: 26 Dec 92 21:47:34 GMT
Organization: NCR Engineering and Manufacturing Atlanta -- Atlanta, GA

In <1992Dec24.210446.1@acad3.alaska.edu> nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu writes:

>Question is if the US does the 100 year plan thing. I posted that same idea on

Anyone who does a hundred year plan for anything is wasting his time and
our money.  Look how much luck the soviets had with their 5 year plans.
Think back, what was the world like 100 years ago.  Back then anyone
who acurately predicted what 1992 would be like, would have been thought a
lunatic.


-- 
Mob rule doesn't become any prettier, just because the mob start to call itself
a government.
It ain't charity if you are using someone else's money.
Mark.Wilson@AtlantaGA.NCR.com
From: carl@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU (Carl J Lydick)
Newsgroups: sci.environment
Subject: Re: Development policies
Date: 28 Dec 1992 18:39:52 GMT
Organization: HST Wide Field/Planetary Camera
Distribution: world
Reply-To: carl@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol1.gps.caltech.edu

In article <1992Dec21.162017.9194@ke4zv.uucp>, gary@ke4zv.uucp (Gary Coffman) writes:
>But like the Arkansas Legislators who passed a law saying pi=3.0 to make the
>math easier

First, it was *NOT* the Arkansas Legislature, it was either the Iowa or the
Indiana legislature, if I recall correctly;  second, the bill was introduced as
a facetious dig at some other pending legislation, the point being that if the
legislature was going to be silly enough to take the other legislation
seriously, then they ought to consider setting the value of pi by fiat.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carl J Lydick | INTERnet: CARL@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU | NSI/HEPnet: SOL1::CARL

Disclaimer:  Hey, I understand VAXen and VMS.  That's what I get paid for.  My
understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level (or below).  So
unless what I'm saying is directly related to VAX/VMS, don't hold me or my
organization responsible for it.  If it IS related to VAX/VMS, you can try to
hold me responsible for it, but my organization had nothing to do with it.
From: gil@tillage.DIALix.oz.au (Gil Hardwick)
Newsgroups: sci.environment
Subject: Alliance for a Paving Moratorium (Alert)
Distribution: world
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 92 10:05:37 GMT
Organization: STAFF STRATEGIES - Anthropologists & Training Agents


In article <1992Dec29.000643.819@pbhye.PacBell.COM> mjvande@PacBell.COM writes:

 > You should talk to your countryman, Peter Newman, from Fremantle.

Have indeed. But my talking to him, appreciating what he has to say,
having his books on my shelves, taking students of his through post-
graduate professional development training, and conducting my own
consultancy on community dynamics, is not necessarily persuading all
those suburban voters out there to get out of their cars, into light
rail carriages, or onto bicycles.

You might also like to actually *read* my other posts on this thread,
and yourself get some idea of what is *actually* happening down here
in this part of the world right now. But we are in a position to do
what we can, even then after some extremely bitter political battles,
while very few other places in the world can possibly come anywhere
near partially realising the dream you promote.

You simply do not appear to realise that the consumption of energy and
resources in an affluent (cf effluent) society is a power game, and you
might begin paying some attention to the realities of human behaviour
before you go about *demanding* that they do just what you want them to
do, for whatever good reason you might have. As mentioned to another,
you might instead settle down and work more closely with others with
experience in this field over the longer term instead of going around
beating your own drum so loudly. It just gets deafening and turns people
off, and is no use at all in educating people on what options might be
made available to them as time goes by.

At present I am far more busy researching and extending public access
to the Internet, than worrying about cars directly. By telecommuting I
have already cut down use of the car to about 15%, with the further
saving of office rent I have mentioned previously. The bicycle is in
the back shed accumulating dust and cobwebs until the boys get older,
when we might just go out riding together if they feel up to it.

BTW, since you know so much about who's who in the Land Down Under,
have you ever heard of Peter Pedal? He is a hippie dating from the
1960s who made a name for himself about twenty years ago by cycling
all over Australia promoting pedal power. Apart from the bike he had
with all these wonderful gizmos attached to it, he had fitted bicycle
pedals to all his household appliances, from his little portable flour
mill to his washing machine, even to a TV set via a 12 volt generator.

Really a totally awesome guy, believe me.

The company he started is now turning over about $1 million building
and supplying small pelton wheel generators to the "Third World" as an
"appropriate" hydro-electricity supply in small villages. Sure beats
all that pedalling at one treadmill or another all day (every day),
but there is no market in this country for the product.

Gil

Xref: sparky sci.environment:13752 talk.environment:5176
From: gary@ke4zv.uucp (Gary Coffman)
Newsgroups: sci.environment,talk.environment
Subject: Re: Why do they hate us?
Date: 21 Dec 92 17:24:58 GMT
Reply-To: gary@ke4zv.UUCP (Gary Coffman)
Organization: Gannett Technologies Group

In article <1992Dec17.015017.756@organpipe.uug.arizona.edu> 471-1@.arizona.edu (E. Shane Jimerfield) writes:
>
>>In article  constant@gn.ecn.purdue.edu (Tino) writes:
>>
>>No, I think it's due to the irrationality of the environmentalists.
>
>What is wrong with wanting a better future for this planet. In most of my
>studies of 'humanity' the most appalling constant found is the destruction 
>of nature. Men have been at war with this planet for as long as history
>tells of their struggle to dominate all things, including other men. It
>is time for humanity to be welcomed into the 20th century with
>technology. Most problems can be solved if one question is answered
>before every action taken. That question is .. Will it bring harm to 
>another person or animal. If the answer is yes, then it's wrong, don't
>do it.

Then curl up and die. Every action, or inaction, has harmful effects
on *something*. What must be weighed is the cost/benefit ratio of an
action. Humans have been "at war" with "Nature" for as long as history
records. But humans view it in a different manner. They have been shaping
Nature to a more useful form by taming and guiding it along channels
they see as having higher benefit to *humans* while having less adverse
costs to *humans*. It's a very speciescentric view, but it's the same
view any creature capable of rational, or instinctive, action holds about 
it's species. It's the urge that drives the bee to build a comb and a
beaver to build a dam. The beaver doesn't care if he floods out some
competitor species. He only cares that *his* situation is improved.

Alan points out that human actions are on a scale and timescale such
that large portions of other existing species can't adapt. He sees
that as a cost too high to pay for advancing the interest of the human
species. But like the beaver, most humans do not consider damage to
competitor species more important than advancing the conditions of
the human species. That's a risky behavior, but so is maintaining
the status quo where humans are perishing today because of present
transitory ecological balance points. 

Gary
From: gil@tillage.DIALix.oz.au (Gil Hardwick)
Newsgroups: sci.environment
Subject: Education and the Environment by Gregory A. Smith
Distribution: world
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 92 08:24:19 GMT
Organization: STAFF STRATEGIES - Anthropologists & Training Agents


In article <C02rE0.CJ@news.iastate.edu> s1mbm@isuvax.iastate.edu writes:

 > Maybe that jerk Pat Buchanan was right after all, maybe this *is* a war for
 > America's soul, if such socialization can really strike you as "radical."

Sorry to butt in on this, but in all societies childhood socialisation
takes place at play among one's age-mates; *not* in a classroom taking
instruction from an adult pursuing a tacit (to the children) political
agenda.

If you do feel such a need to interfere with the development of their
social life, how about being less intrusive about it by taking them all
out together hiking or canoing during the holidays?

Gil
From: stead@skadi.CSS.GOV (Richard Stead)
Newsgroups: sci.environment
Subject: Re: Nuclear Power and Climate Change
Date: 1 Jan 93 21:51:44 GMT

In article <58188@dime.cs.umass.edu>, yodaiken@chelm.cs.umass.edu (victor yodaiken) writes:
> methods are large, their effectiveness is not known. The NRC shut down
> Yankee Rowe precisely because its containment vessel showed signs of
> losing enough ductility to make its continued operation dangerous. The
> utility chose to decomission rather than to attempt annealing. The

Why not take a chunk of vessel to a lab and see exactly what annealing
treatment will restore ductility?  Then simply design new reactors with
an installed annealing system - annealing could be performed as part of
regular maintainance every few years.


--
Richard Stead
Center for Seismic Studies
Arlington, VA
stead@seismo.css.gov
Newsgroups: sci.environment