HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: bloodthorn@sloth.equinox.gen.nz (Jennifer Geard)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Tadhg's Preferred Geographic Area 
Distribution: world
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 93 04:59:12 GMT
Organization: Lethargy Inc.


Unto Tadhg and all the gentle folk here assembled:

Good my lord, I'm having some difficulty phrasing a reply to your latest 
missive.  My problem is partly that the issue under discussion is one which 
has troubled me for some time, and that I have no resolution to ease my 
disquiet.  Pray forgive me if I repeat unto you various comments which were 
made to me when last I attempted to discuss this matter.

I very much like the sound of Ordo Fraterculi Trinitatis.  I can see myself 
hating the 2 am rising for Matins, and I can also see that being part of the 
re-creation.  I'd like to be part of something like that.  

As soon as I say this, however, I strike two categories of problems.  The 
first such class is to do with authentic recreation.  First, let me transform 
the order into something more like Abbess Hild's establishment at Whitby, for 
in a double monastery I need not worry so much about the gender incongruities 
of being a sister in a brotherhood.  Then, well, I'm short-sighted.  I've 
worn corrective lenses since I was six, and without them I get edgy and 
somewhat agoraphobic.  I feel that if I'm doing this seriously that should be 
a part of my persona play, but it is something I find unpleasant enough that 
it'd probably prevent me from playing.  Glasses aren't appropriate that early 
on in the piece, and fiddling with contact lenses at 2 am would really 
dispell the atmosphere, which is counterproductive since I'd be in this to 
learn something of how it *feels* and not just how it can be made to look.  
Small things like this can have quite an effect.  If I can work out a way 
around it though... 

The second main concern is the one people kept telling me until it finally 
made an impression:  these things may be what you or I or whoever would like 
the SCA to be, but we are not the only people in the SCA.  The SCA is a 
heterogenous group, gathering together many people who want very different 
things and trying to fit as many of them in as it can (or so it seems:  
corrections are welcome, cynicism I can do on my own).  Some things about the 
SCA will probably always grate -- there are ways to encourage improvement, 
but to a certain extent it is part of the SCA package.  The best compromise I 
can so far see is to do the real research and recreation in an SCA affiliated 
group like a household.  If no-one wants to play with you, well, that's 
upsetting but the way it goes...

Pagan le Chaunster
Who gets schismatic now and then, and gets told that the local area can't 
support competing groups ("No more splits!" is the cry).  Not sure that I 
agree, but don't currently have the energy to test this hypothesis. 
________________________________________________________________________ 
Jennifer Geard                         bloodthorn@sloth.equinox.gen.nz 
Christchurch, New Zealand 
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: nusbache@epas.utoronto.ca (Aryk Nusbacher)
Subject: Re: Awarding Awards or Ooh, Ah, Oh
Organization: University of Toronto - Office of the Provost
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 18:34:23 GMT


Knighting people in "court":

The classic places for knighthood were on the battlefield right before
a battle, on the battlefield right after a battle, or at a feast right
before a campaign.
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 00:11:04 EST
From: nemesis <JLF129@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: icelandic wedding

greeting to all ...

my fiance and I are interested in having a scadian marriage to be performed
in June at one of our local events.  We both have personas from Iceland
around the 900s, and would like to incorporate as much of the medieval
traditions as we could.  Unfortunately, the information that we have located is
very sketchy and hasn't been very useful.  If there is anyone out there with
any information or any idea of good references, could you please let us know.

Thanks in advance for any help ...

Signy inn heppna
Varg Nagr
From: Beth.Appleton@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Beth Appleton)
Sender: FredGate@ocitor.fidonet
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Province jurisdictions
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 17:39:30

 JG> territorial group.  Does the existence of an active 
 JG> Shire in a university 
 JG> town preclude the founding of an Independent 
 So far as I know, yes it does.  Colleges with a surronding shire/barony 
 are presumed to need the stability and support of the surronding group. 
 It's generally more beneficial than negative....
...
 JG> As for approval not being granted for the 
 JG> establishment of branches started 
 JG> for reasons of personal politics, my question is 
 JG> "How do they tell?".  No 
 I would imagine that they ask "and just why can't you exist as part of 
 the existing group?".  Also, (so far as *I* know) all branch 
 applications are handled through the kingdom.  If the kingdom doesn't 
 know about whatever divisive politics are going on in the sub-group, 
 *and* if none of the DP have generated a letter or two to the Kingdom 
 Seneschale/BoD, then there *most likely* is no problem.  OTOH, if they 
 are bad enough to generate a 2nd group, they've probably been making 
 tsunami-sized waves in their kingdom.
...
 JG> Another rumour I'd like clarified:  is it the case 
 JG> that the Board is on 
 JG> principle not approving the creation of Palatine 
 JG> Baronies unless the group is 
 JG> strongly tied to a military base, with the high 
 JG> turnover of personnel which 
 JG> that entails?  I know I should write to the 
 Hmmmm.  I know absolutely zip about this particular question.  The 
 rumour I've heard is that Palantine Baronies are strictly for groups 
 which are so far from a kingdom/principality center that there is no 
 *reasonable* chance that a fighter can get to one for a tourney, and 
 if they did and won, then the expense of travel for all the royal 
 touring would be an extreme burden.  For newer groups, that's 
 *generally* the US military bases, who also don't have the stable folks 
 who get created baron/ess in the more normal SCA fashion.
     Clear as mud?
         Gwenllian Cwmystwyth

 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
From: cozzlab@garnet.berkeley.edu ()
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: What is a protege? (was  Re: Being aware...)
Date: 27 Jan 1993 17:34:21 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: garnet.berkeley.edu

In article <C1Is6M.3wx@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu> icklinck@cayley.uwaterloo.ca (Ian "Rhys" Klinck) writes:
>
>I think it's from the (also mistaken) idea that protegees/apprentices/squires
>are specifically "Pelicans/Laurels/Knights in training", and that you have to
>be a squire to become a knight, etc...
>
>No matter how often I hear someone (and usually a Peer) explain that this is
>by no means the case, popular belief remains otherwise...

In the West we have a fair number of squires--but we didn't before the
Year XII or so.  I know of one Pelican who had a protegee (but she's a
Pelican now too), and I know of one Laurel who has an apprentice.  There
are probably a few more but I don't know of 'em--which gives you an idea
of how much public attention they get.  Squires are _never_ taken at
Court or anywhere public: it's a private, by-invitation-only ceremony;
I have never seen one; Hal got asked to one so he could take pictures.
But then, this is the West....


Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin		Dorothy J. Heydt
Mists/Mists/West			UC Berkeley
Argent, a cross forme'e sable		cozzlab@garnet.berkeley.edu

Disclaimer:  UCB and the Cozzarelli lab are not responsible for my
opinions, and in fact I don't think they know I have any.
From: helm@ymir.berkeley.edu (Seriously Tweaked)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Awarding Awards or Ooh, Ah, Oh
Date: 23 Jan 93 09:15:03 GMT
Organization: UC Davis


Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: tbarnes@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (thomas wrentmore barnes)
Subject: Re: SCA Attitude Origins
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 22:20:49 GMT

In article <kfNyQzG00WB9RaV7kh@andrew.cmu.edu> David Schroeder <ds4p+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
>> Libertarianism - Just ask Tadgh or Cariadoc about where Cariadoc was
>> when he was taken away to be crowned 1st King of the Midrealm.
>
>see Libertarian thinking influencing the mindset of the Midrealm, out
>of curiousity?
>

Most SCA folk that I have met, seem to either be socially pretty liberal
or "get government off our backs libertarians" or both. I believe that
social liberalism and libertarianism tend to color SCA thinking. 
Since SCA folk tend to be extremely tolerant of social wierdness and
philosophically opposed to any sort of "government" inferference in
their lives. 
	Look at the common SCA gripes about "creeping bureaucracy" (and
the way that most people cheerfully ignore most of the bureaucracy that
has been set up), "the BoD" (the BoD is made up of experienced SCA-folk
who are really trying to do good things for the SCA, but people remain
suspicious and skeptical of them.) and "authenticity police" (unsanction
ed officials who try to enforce unreasonable standards of authenticity
on people who don't want them.)
	

Influence of D&D on the SCA?

Many people "learned" and still "learn" most of what they "know" about
mediaval life and artifacts, from role-playing games. I was exposed to
D&D in high-school before I was exposed to medieval history. It influenced
my view of medieval history for a long time and also introduced me to a
lot of concepts and words I'd never heard before .

>> Comic Books
>
>  Do you mean references to knights and such in comics, like
>  The Shining Knight, The Black Knight, and the guy in the 
>  Avengers for awhile, or just the whole fantasy notion of
>  knights as "superheroes" ?
>
 
Uh, I dunno. I just know that a lot of SCA types tend to collect them.
They don't really grab me. I guess that some SCA people get hooked on
the concept of being a hero, and the idea of a super-powered person who
is able to transcend personal and social barriers to solve a problem in
a definative, relatively painless way. I think that it's a sort of wish
fulfillment. I have seen the concept of "being a person who might have
lived in the Middle Ages, but didn't" come into conflict with the idea
of "I can be a hero in the SCA!". 

Lothar \|/
        0
From: 00mjstum@leo.bsuvc.bsu.edu (Matthew J. Stum)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Holy Grail monk chant... help?
Date: 21 Jan 93 16:16:28 GMT
Organization: Widget Enterprises

This is going to be a _very_ silly request, but here goes...

Anyone know what the monks are chanting in Monty Python's The Holy Grail?
Phonetically, I can repeat it, but I'd like to know the latin.  Why do I
even think it's legit?  Well, the more I watch the stupid thing the more
authentic I see it to be.  Kind of scary, eh?   I mean, I used to laugh at
their armory... until I learned more about armory.  Some of the place-names
they use used to be quite funny... until I found them on maps.  Even the
monks themselves were hysterical... until I learned about the practices used
during The Plague to punish yourself in hopes that black death wouldn't.
(Granted, they used flogs and such, but still...)

Anyway, it's just for a bit of fun, and I'm tired of writing it out as
     "Bee yay ay-zoo dom-ee-nay, dough-na ay ees requi-em <BAM!>
      Bee yay ay-zoo dom-ee-nay <BAM!>, dough-na ay ees requiem <BAM!>"
when I describe it to others.

Thanx!

Shamefully,
Gwydion

-- 
Matt Stum                    Gwydion ap Myrddin       Ball State University
00mjstum@leo.bsuvc.bsu.edu   Shire of Afonlyn, MK     Muncie, IN  USA
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: KAMOOR01@ulkyvm.louisville.EDU ("Kathleen A. Moore")
Subject: SCA Digest V6 #45
Organization: The Internet
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 13:52:40 GMT

Title:Art Library, UofL
Phone:(502)588-6741
Has the method of sending Rialto changed?  In the last week, I'm getting
only 2-3 topics a day (instead of 30-50) and it's appearing as CMSNAMES
mail instead of "pump mail".
                                 --Mistress Cordelia

THANKS--Kathy
From: doconnor@sedona.intel.com (Dennis O'Connor)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Feud cancelled, debate rages on
Followup-To: rec.org.sca
Date: 21 Jan 93 16:53:13
Organization: Intel i960(tm) Architecture
NNTP-Posting-Host: potato.intel.com
In-reply-to: doconnor@sedona.intel.com's message of 12 Jan 93 08:52:57


Cariodoc and I have, in e-mail, worked out the issue
of who might owe who an apology, and established that
(at least in my understanding) neither he nor I have
committed any dishonorable act against the other.

We have, essentially, come to understand our misunderstanding.

I withdraw with apology any statements I have made that
Cariodoc had acted out of ill-intent, stupidity, or pig-headedness.
I now firmly believe that such statements were incorrect.


--
Dennis O'Connor			doconnor@sedona.intel.com
From: doconnor@sedona.intel.com (Dennis O'Connor)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: TLC to broadcast 6-hour history marathon
Date: 21 Jan 93 13:31:31
Organization: Intel i960(tm) Architecture
NNTP-Posting-Host: potato.intel.com
In-reply-to: graham@Civil.Concordia.CA's message of 21 Jan 93 06:26:03 GMT


The Learning Channel (I think : I could be misremebering and
it might actually be their parent, The Discovery Channel) is
going to broadcast six (6) hours of "The World : a Television History"
this Friday, I think starting at 6PM EST. I think each hour
examines a different Great Civilization. I know one hour
is on the Mongols, and I saw a very favorable review of
that particular hour in a book-reviews-for-libraries magazine.

"The World : a Television History" is, I'm told, a very good series.

I get Discover and TLC by satellite, so I can't say what hour
your local cable company will broadcast it. I'm not even sure
what time the satellite downlink is, but it's definitely
the evening (EST) of Friday, Jan. 22.

[ If your cable co. doesn't get TLC, write them ! It's one of my four
  favorite channels ( along with AMC, A&E, and Discovery ). They are
  also running a new series called "Archeology" that's excellent, and
  they're rerunning "Connections". It's on C4-2 (I think) for dish 
  owners, ITC (unscrambled) currently. ]



--
Dennis O'Connor			doconnor@sedona.intel.com
From: clynne@cco.caltech.edu (Connie Lynne Villani)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: On-line Vatican and Renaissance exhibit
Date: 28 Jan 1993 09:18:23 GMT
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
NNTP-Posting-Host: punisher.caltech.edu

I checked out this exhibit and it looks really interesting and useful (sketch-
books, digitized artwork, etc..) except that most of it is in a graphics format
that I can't unlock! (it was .jpg or something like that)

Does anyone have something that can convert these to .gif or .tif?
From: n9040513@henson.cc.wwu.edu (Andrea Aldridge)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Actually, it's "Triskaidekaphobia"
Date: 22 Jan 93 22:38:19 GMT
Article-I.D.: henson.1993Jan22.223819.1349
Organization: Western Washington University

...I think.


-- 
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
<>  Andrea Aldridge    IRC:  Folkie   E-Mail:  n9040513@henson.cc.wwu.edu <>
<>  WWU - 452 Edens Hall North/Bellingham, WA 98225-5971   (206) 650-2647 <>
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
From: mjc+@cs.cmu.edu (Monica Cellio)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: A Little of Everything, pt. 1
Date: 21 Jan 93 16:23:17 GMT
Distribution: rec
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon

>(and a large fraction of my
>offhand comments, which are *not* intended to cause discussion, do).

Gee, do you really think so? :-)

Ellisif
Organization: Doctoral student, Industrial Administration, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 00:53:44 -0500 
From: David Schroeder <ds4p+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Authentic?

Good gentles,

Once more I beg your indulgence and assistance.
I'm curious...  just what do people _mean_ when
they say something _is_ or _isnt'_ authentic?

I'd guess that one definition is:

    Something done in at least a reasonable
    approximation of the way it would have
    been done prior to 1601.

My attempt at delineating _levels_ of authenticity
was, I guess, a way of qualifying the "reasonable
approximation" term.  My four levels were:

      0 - "clearly modern"
             -> sneakers (okay, so with this
                one there are FIVE levels,
                but only four are levels of
                _authenticity_ ).

      1 - "inspired by" something pre-1601
             -> a mail bikini

      2 - "looks like"  something pre-1601
             -> a 15th century-styled dress 
                made from a cotton-poly blend
                and sewn by machine

      3 - "item-level coherence"   
             -> a 15th century dress made
                from a pre-1601 type of 
                fabric, dyed with a 
                pre-1601 dyestuff,
                handsewn, etc.

      4 - "gestalt-level coherence"
             -> the dress from L3, but with
                the entire ensemble done at
                L3 standards, from shoes to
                chapeau, from undergarments
                to cloak.

When we talk about authenticity are we focussing on
the distinction between L1 and "L0" (clearly modern)?
L2 and L0 ?  L1 and L2 ?  L2 and L3 ?

Can we spend a little time explaining to each other
what we _mean_ by authentic?  I'd really like to know.
We've built up lots of little "conventions" about what
is and isn't authentic in different contexts.  In some
fields critical published sources are dated 1650 or 1651.
Because we can make the case that they're documenting
styles that may well have been common half a century
before we "accept" them as part of what defines 
"authentic" in fields like cooking and dance.

What sorts of things are closest to L3 and L4 these days?
I see lots of _very convincing_ L2...  But does anybody
really _do_ much L3 and L4 ?  I'm sure we make lots of
compromises, given the difficulty of finding appropriate
materials (or making them).  If L3 and L4 are as rare as
I suspect is the L2 / L3 boundary a major "tension point
as some people "raise the ante."  [It used to be that
stuff that _looked good_ could get you a Laurel in many
places -- now there seems to be a need to do at least
_some_ L3-quality stuff...]

I'll close now and await your comments -- my best -- Bertram

+-----------------------------------------------------------------------+
Bertram of Bearington                                      Dave Schroeder
Debatable Lands/AEthelmearc/East               Carnegie Mellon University
INTERNET: ds4p@andrew.cmu.edu                         412/731-3230 (Home)
+------------------------ PREME * Press On * PREME ---------------------+
      "He indulged in every excess, yes in each licentious whim..." 

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: phardie@nastar.uucp (Pete Hardie)
Subject: Re: Illegal targets (was 
Organization: Digital Transmission Systems, Duluth, GA.
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 17:06:43 GMT

In article <728030197snx@sloth.equinox.gen.nz> bloodthorn@sloth.equinox.gen.nz (Jennifer Geard) writes:
>Good my lord, I'm slightly embarrassed to ask -- what is the nature of this 
>"don't aim for the groin" rule?  Is it something other kingdoms include in 
>their rules?  Is it one of those things a new fighter is told by the older 
>fighters upon induction into fighterhood?  I ask because I've read all the 
>stuff-about-fighting I could find (mostly rules, unfortunately, which aren't 
>very helpful as "how-to" guidelines) without encountering such a concept.  

M'lady,

I would hazard a guess that the "don't aim for the groin' rule is a tacit
rule, enforced in the days of all-men fighters by the simple expedient of
nobody wanting to be hit there.  Nowadays, with women fighting, I would
like to believe that everyone realizes the danger of a strike to the groin
to someone of either gender, but I *know* that males are always aware of this
vulnerability.

Having been hit twice in the groin (quite accidentally), I can assure you
that I will in no uncertain terms avoid striking someone there with all
my ability.

Reynard
(who still manages a tenor/bass, inspite of the groin shots)
-- 
Pete Hardie:  phardie@nastar  (voice) (404) 497-0101
Digital Transmission Systems, Inc., Duluth GA
Member, DTS Dart Team           |  cat * | egrep -v "signature virus|infection" 
Position:  Goalie               |
From: bloodthorn@sloth.equinox.gen.nz (Jennifer Geard)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Made in Atlantia 
Distribution: world
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 93 21:31:12 GMT
Organization: Lethargy Inc.


  > Unto the good gentles of the Rialto does Hossein Ali Qomi send greetings
  > and prayers for the blessings of Allah.
  > 
  > Lady Pagan and Lady Gwenllian are quite right in the individual cases...


Gracious Excellency, I am no Lady!   ;-)


Plain Pagan
Unprecedented and relatively 'armless.  
(And unable to resist a straight line.)

PS:  I thought that this well-known example might have been behind Robyyan's 
previous statement, but I do concede your point about the general trend away 
from anthropomorphising ascriptions.  (Hey, I even said it was unusual...)
________________________________________________________________________ 
Jennifer Geard                         bloodthorn@sloth.equinox.gen.nz 
Christchurch, New Zealand 
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman)
Subject: Re: persona help
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 16:41:32 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

Greetings from Arval!  Felicity Pigkeeper wrote:

> I adopted the surname "Pigkeeper."  While I wouldn't have a problem
> changing the language my name is in, I'd like to be able to BE some sort
> of pig-person (I mean pig-taking-care-of person) when I'm in persona.

E. G. Withycombe, "The Oxford Dictionary of English Christian Names", says
that "Felicity" did not come into use as a name until the 17th century,
when similar "abstract attribute names" became fashionable among the
Puritans; the earliest citation she gives is "Phelisstie" in 1641.  There
were two early Sts. Felicitas, so the name is probably acceptable, but not
good medieval recreation.  You might consider "Felicia" instead, which
Withycombe cites as early as 1199 in a variety of spellings (p.116-117).

I found a long list of possible bynames which mean "pig-taking-care-of
person".  Bertil Thuresson, "Middle English Occupational Terms" (Lund:
C.W.K. Gleerup, 1950), 65ff, lists the following, all dated in the 13th and
14th centuries.  The meanings are given in parentheses.  Any of these
examples could be used as an SCA byname, with or without the article "le".

  Swynherde, le Swynerd, Swynhird, Swynhurde (swine herd)
  Swyneman, Suyneman, le Swynemon (swine man)
  le Swyner
  le Swyndriuere (swine driver)
  Porcher, le Porcher, Porker
  Hoghird (hog herd)
  Hoggeman
  Hogger
  Hoggreue (hog reeve)
  Boreward (boar ward)
  Galter (from Middle English galte "boar")
  Pighurde (pig herd)

In other similar entries, he shows the elements -swayn and -grom (groom),
both of which can also mean "a keeper of animals".  Thus, you could justify
combinations like Piggrom, Swyneward, Hogswayn, etc.  Thuresson does show a
few examples where these names seem to have been inherited by a daughter.
There is one (which I didn't remember to write down) which is something
like "Elizabeth Swyneman".  I found no example of a byname using "-keeper";
I believe it is unlikely in a period name.

===========================================================================
Arval Benicoeur                                       mittle@watson.ibm.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca