HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: robertdf@microsoft.com (Robert Del Favero)
Subject: Re: period fighting styles
Date: 24 Jan 93 23:06:00 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corporation

In article <3206@tymix.Tymnet.COM> jschmidt@oolong.Tymnet.COM (John Schmidt) writes:
>Hands as targets doesn't bother me even without a basket hilt, but I'm
>going to have amazingly good gauntlets.  A gentleman at Pennsic (Roberto .??)
>had some last year that were wonderful.

Roberto di Milano, OL. He's based in the Dominion of Myrkfaelinn, 
mundanely Ithaca, NY. The last three or four Pennsics, he's made a 
production run of high quality gauntlets. The design is based on a 
period mitten gauntlet of the 14th century, with an enclosed thumb 
and other modifications intended to appeal to SCA fighters. As Roberto's
sometime apprentice, I help him sell them every year. I don't know
if he's planning on selling them again this year.

Vittorio del Fabbro, Madrone, An Tir
(Robert Del Favero, Bellevue, Washington)
From: dgreen@athena (David Greenebaum)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: awarding awards
Date: 22 Jan 93 19:14:15 GMT
Organization: /etc/organization
NNTP-Posting-Host: athena.berkeley.edu

Hello from Bjalfi!

Edward the Discalceate quotes Hal:
>  > It looked a bit dicey there for a minute, but [Court is]
>  > a tough place to say no....
>
>Which is precisely the problem I have with surprise awards. 
>
>I have a local "award" which I neither fit the criteria for nor 
>deserve (two different things). However being caught by surprise 
>doesn't exactly give one a chance to think about the matter.

I was given an AoA in absentia; some "interested parties" actually
tried to keep it secret from me until my scroll was ready.  I did
find out, but not until two months after the award was given.

On another occasion, earlier, some people had hinted about writing AoA
recommendation letters for me, at a time when I did not feel I had
done anything to deserve an AoA.  (I had JUST moved to the West, and
JUST been railr--er, appointed to a local office, but had only served
for a couple of weeks.)  I said then, in no uncertain terms, that if
offered an AoA I would not accept it at that time.

If these two events had happened together--say, the hints dropped about
the letters were too subtle or not dropped at all--the whole thing
would have been very awkward and embarrassing.  I would NOT have
accepted the award, and things would have been pretty messy.

---------------------  Bjalfi Thordharson/College of St. Katherine/Province of
 |\  | |\  |\  |// |       the Mists/Principality of the Mists/West Kingdom
 | > | |\\ | \ |/  |   David Greenebaum/University of California/Berkeley, CA
 |<  | | \ |   |   |   dgreen@athena.berkeley.edu, dgreen@garnet.berkeley.edu
 | > | |   |   |   |
 |/  | |   |   |   |   "I make mistakes, but I am on the side of good -- by
---------------------  accident and happenchance." -- the Golux
From: doconnor@sedona.intel.com (Dennis O'Connor)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Awarding Awards or Ooh, Ah, Oh
Date: 25 Jan 93 18:40:26
Organization: Intel i960(tm) Architecture
	<1993Jan21.151902.240@mcshub.dcss.mcmaster.ca>
	<484-JNEWS-2.1@smylex.UUCP>
	<1993Jan24.043904.18136@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: potato.intel.com
In-reply-to: greg@silver.lcs.mit.edu's message of Sun, 24 Jan 1993 04:39:04 GMT


greg@silver.lcs.mit.edu (Hossein Ali Qomi (mka Gregory F. Rose)) writes:
] Lord Godfrey recently wrote:
] >A lot of scribes put a great deal of time and effort into creating those 
] >scrolls.  Is it so evil that the Crown should take a second to recognise
] >the artisans who serve in that capacity?
] >
] >It's not much of a reward for hours' worth of work; would you deny us
] >even *that* much?
]
] Yes, Lord Godfrey, I would.  Not for any slight to scribes nor from any
] undervaluation of their work, would I do so, but for the screaming
] mundanity of it.  I find it hard to imagine Henry II of England handing
] out writs to his sheriffs and holding each up to be admired by his court,
] saying "Br. Louis did this one."  It's a completely unmedieval practice.

I also find it hard to imagine Henry II knighting a woman, but it's not
an argument I'd accept against having female knights in the SCA. 
But having said that, let me say I think I understand your feelings :
at least they did knight people at courts (even if they only did males),
and they didn't thank scribes, so therefor more unmedieval to thank scribes.

Maybe a better idea would be two things :

	1. Allow scribes to sign or distinctively mark their work. This 
	   lets people admiring it determine who did it. Regulations on
	   size, location, et cetera could be developed.

	2. Thank scribes for their work, by name, in the monthly
	   Kingdom newsletter

Another idea would be to have a two-part court : one part all
mideaval stuff, the other all mundane (like lost-n-founds,
personal notices, thanking people for mundane stuff, etc. ).
The second part, being mundane, no one would be obliged to attend
or stick around for.

Well, I only just thought of that last, so no doubt it has
a lot of problems that need to be worked out. Cry Havoc !
--
Dennis O'Connor			doconnor@sedona.intel.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Subject: Re: Awarding awards and declining them
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 00:16:54 GMT

In article <1982@niktow.canisius.edu>, salley@niktow.canisius.edu (David Salley) writes:
> Hal Ravn writes:
> > Surprise is when the question is asked in Court--and I know one Laurel
> > who tried to decline in Court because whe didn't think the efforts
> > cited were sufficient to merit the award (the rest of us disagreed),
> > so we cited a whole bunch of  *other* stuff she did to and convinced
> > her on the spot.  It looked a bit dicey there for a minute, but that's
> > a tough place to say no....
> 
> So, to put a Bertram-esque tangent on the question, how should/does one
> say no to an award.  Assume that there is legitimate reason in your own
> mind for decline.

When the subjects of awards comes up around tha camp fire (or the
post-Revel) make sure that your opinion that you want advance warning
is known to all and sundry.  *Especially* at those times when you
don't figure to be in the works for anything.  Disclaimer can be
included as needed.
	
	--Hal

        Hal Ravn, West Kingdom
        Wilson H. Heydt, Jr.,  Albany, CA 94706,  510/524-8321 (home)

Nothing in this missive constitutes an act or opinion of the Lord High
Constable of the Kingdom of the West unless otherwise explicitly stated.
-- 
Hal Heydt                    |    
Analyst, Pacific*Bell        |            You!
510-823-5447                 |    Out of the Gene Pool!
whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM    |
From: Tim@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Tim)
Sender: FredGate@ocitor.fidonet
From: mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: The Nature of Change and Cynicism
Date: 27 Jan 93 22:06:13 GMT
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM

Greetings from Arval!  Sir John wrote:

> There is a natural growth of all organizations, and all participants
> within organizations, from innocence to knowledge to cynicism in the
> modern sense.  At the best of times, one can capture the knowledge yet
> remain innocent, and approach new subjects with joy.  Rec.org.sca as a
> newsgroup has recently become as contentious as other good newsgroups,
> and is losing the polite edge as well. ...the Rialto went from the second
> stage to the third somewhere when people argued that we are more a debate
> or an academic squabble than a meeting...

I think, Sir John, you may have misread the changes.  I think that the only
real change in the Rialto over the years it has existed is that it has
become larger and more public.  The wider we cast our net, the greater the
variety of fish we catch.  One-in-a-thousand has little noticeable effect
when the population is in the hundreds, but the nature of netnews is that
one-in-a-thousand stands out prominently among thousands.

Most approach these discussions in the same spirit as always: friendly,
polite, informative, and without taking themselves more seriously than
necessary.  It is not at all surprising that there are some exceptions.
Some people will be offensive, others will be offended.  And some, in good
faith, will find that this medium is not to their liking.  However, before
you leave us, Good Sir John (who deserves that epithet more than most I can
call to mind), I recommend to you the judicious use of KILL files and the
"n" key; they can to wonders for your blood-pressure.

===========================================================================
Arval Benicoeur                                       mittle@watson.ibm.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Western Land Purchase 
From: bloodthorn@sloth.equinox.gen.nz (Jennifer Geard)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 93 05:36:18 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Lethargy Inc.


  > "Gentile" is an
  > authentic period spelling of the word we know as "gentle", according
  > to no less an authority than the Oxford English Dictionary.

Indeed, my lord, it seems you are correct in this assertion.  In general, 
though, when a term has a common modern meaning which differs substantially 
from its period meaning, it is my experience that gent(i)les (and others) in 
the SCA will avoid that word for fear of ambiguity or incongruity.  Not that 
they *should*, merely that they *do*.  It's the only reason I can think of 
why there are so few "Pagans" registered, given that name's popularity with 
the Normans and their descendents.   ]-)

Pagan le Chaunster:  Pagana Cantatrix
________________________________________________________________________
Jennifer Geard                         bloodthorn@sloth.equinox.gen.nz
Christchurch, New Zealand
From: hjfeld@acs.bu.edu (harold feld)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Lucky or unlucky numbers
Date: 25 Jan 93 14:10:50 GMT
Organization: Boston University, Boston, MA, USA

Unto all who read these words, greetings from Yaakov.
Long has it been since I had time to read the many fine missives
in this forum.  I therefore, before begining the true text
of my post, do ask this boon.  Justin mentioned in a recent
post that the Learned Dr Peregrinus received some elevation
of status.  Having long felt respect for this man of learning,
I should desire to know of it and congratulate him properly.

As to the matter of the number 13, which the Christians hold
to be unlucky.  why they hold such, I cannot say, but surely
it shows their foolishness. At the age of 13, a young man
doth enter into the covenant of God and Israel, becoming himself
responsible for all comandments and freeing his parents from his
sins. (Who recite the blessing 'Praise God I have been released
from this one!' in the Synogogue when the youth is called for
his first Aliya (ascension to the torah reading).) How, then, shall
the number 13 be unlucky?
(As to the matter of women, it is far more complex.  All I shall
say here is that at age 12 she shall be released from her father's
care and be considered Na'ara. At age 12 1/2 she shall be considered
Bogeret.  Yet these be highly technical matters which the
company shall not care to he.)

As to the generaly matter of lucky or unlucky numbers, the People
of Israel hgold the number 18 lucky, as the numerical value of
life (chai) is 18. (Each letter of the Hebrew alphabet has a corresponding
numeric value.)  Which life is this?  The life of Torah, as it is written:
Behold I put before you this day the life and the death, chose life, that
thou mayest live. (Dueteronomy)

Which numebrs are unlucky?  Our sages tell us (Tractate Pesachim) that
even numbers attract Demons (shaydim).  How then do we have 4 cups of
wine?  The Lord protects those involved in the doing of commandments.

How, then, should one protect himself from unluckey numbers?
Our sages tell us that one should grasp the thumb of the right
hand with the left hand and cry "You and I make one."  Once,
a demon afflicted R' Akiba. When R' Akiba did as our sages have
commanded, the demon responded by grasping his own thumb and saying:
'You and I make two.'  So did the matter continue, until R' Akiba
reached one hundred and one, whereupon the demon exploded.

But this is a hidden matter, with many meanings.  And our Master,
Rabbi Moses ben Maimon (may he live to be one hundred and twenty!)
has said that it is foolishness to believe the literal meanings
of these words.  Yet many righteous men do make charms and amulets
against demons and unlucky numbers.  More I cannot say.

If any of the learned among us know of the numerology of the
Christians, or of the Ishmaelites, I should long to know it.

In Service,
Yaakov HaMizrachi
(who was getting bored with how many crossbows can
fit on the head of a pin. :)
From: bnostran@lynx.dac.northeastern.edu (Solveig Throndardottir)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Heraldic & Scribal Symposium Course List
Date: 28 Jan 93 10:22:37 GMT
Organization: Northeastern University, Boston, MA. 02115, USA

Heraldic and Scribal Symposium -- Carolingia
Preliminary Course List
***********************************************************
If you are planning to teach a course and do not appear on this list, if your
name or title is incorrect, your course name is incorrect, or if you just
want to say hello, please contact me as soon as possible.

							Your Humble Servant
							Solveig Throndardottir
							Totally Ignorant

***********************************************************

* A survey of Iberian Names
	Dona Esmeralda La Sabia

* Anglo-Norman Heraldry and SCA Core Style
	Lady Elsbeth Anne ROth, Elmet Herald

* The Diplomatic of Anglo-Sadxon Royal Charters and Writs
	Doctor Gregory Rose

* The Book of Kells:  A Comparison of Hands in One Style
	Lord Lyle Fitz William

* Recreating Medieval Cerimonies
	Master Arval Benicoeur, Treblerose Herald

* Blazon and the Heraldic Artist
	Pan Juraj z Bratislavi

* Reading Unpronouncible Names
	Lord Simon Snatiago de Cordoba

* Designing Regional Heraldry
	Lady Alison MacDermot, Badger Herald

* Basic SCA Heraldic Design
	Master Fridrikr Tomasson av Knusslig Hamn, Brigantia Herald

* Heralds' Titles:  Medieval, Modern & SCA
	Lord Taran of Windy Hill

* Harpers in the Celtic Courts
	Lady Alexys Harper of the Eastwinds

* Scroll Wording Workshop
	Lord Anton of WInteroak

* The Sett Hand in the Common Place
	Lord Anton of Winteroak

* Working with Gold Leaf
	Lady Katarina Helene von Schonborn

* Begining Whitework
	Lady Katarina Helene von Schonborn

* Medieval Jewish Seals
	Lord Yaakov Ha Mizrachi

* Using Heraldic Art on Awards
	Master Harold von Auerbach

* Diapering
	Master Harold von Auerbach

* Structure of the College of Arms
	Lord Reynard des Montaignes

* How ot Read Calligraphy
	Mistress Aleksandra de Accipitre

* The Evolution of Dragons in Medieval Illumination
	Mistress Aleksandra de Accipitre

* Introduction to Japanese Heraldry
	Lady Solveig Throndardottir

* Fun with Heraldry
	Master Da'ud ibn Auda

* Islamic Heraldry in Period
	Master Da'ud ibn Auda
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: klosky@dvorak.Colorado.EDU (Ledlie Klosky )
Subject: Illegal targets (was period fighting styles)
Reply-To: klosky@dvorak.Colorado.EDU (Ledlie Klosky)
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 17:36:43 GMT

Charles Parr writes:

]I would like to see fighting made more period, though, and have a
]few suggestions.
]
]5) Make the basket hilt mandatory, and allow the hand as a
]target.
]
]6) allow the knees and shin as targets.

As to suggestion #5:
I think the whole idea of having the hands be an "illegal" target only
increases the opportunity for injury.  Illegal is often practiced as
invulnerable, so the hand is actively used by many to block blows.  
This seems true for all weapons forms, but particularly for sw&sh.
If the hand were a legal target, then people would make more of an
effort to keep it out of the way of blows, a much safer practice.
Further, it is widely agreed that interposing your knee to block a leg
blow is not allowed and is very unchivalrous.  Why then is it OK to 
block a head blow with your hand?  Lastly, we already armour our hands
with the assumption that they will be struck, so why allow multiple
hand strikes per bout rather than stopping after the first one?

If the hand were to be allowed as a legal target, the same policy as
is in effect for groin shots would have to be used.  New fighters would
be told that it was legal, but that you should by no means attempt to
strike someone there.  This seems to be a very effective policy for 
groin shots, so would probably work with hands.

Not counting hand shots is probably the thing which makes our style
of fighting most different from period forms.  Most sword and shield 
styles we use REQUIRE that you block with your hand, something which
almost certainly would not have been done.  It also really bugs me
to see people blocking mace, greatsword, polearm and spear (yes, I've
seen it, where the shieldman actually looks through the basket to block
incoming thrusts) shots with a basket hilt, as if it were some tiny, in-
destructable buckler.

I would hate to see us mandate a type of sword that is not really in
period for many of us.  Basket hilted swords were not very common,
if present at all, before about 1500.  I'm not saying that I don't 
use one myself (it is only sane to protect your hands the best way
possilbe), I'm just saying don't *mandate* it.

Suggestion #6:
I don't feel that most knee armour is up to the task of stopping even
one brisk blow to the knee per bout.

==================================================================
Otto the Obscure                       klosky@bechtel.Colorado.EDU
Caer Galen, Outlands
     -and-
Ledlie Klosky, Student
Boulder, Colorado
==================================================================
From: Godfrey de Shipbrook <jlee@smylex.UUCP>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Pelicans (was Re: A Little of Everything, pt. 2)
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 93 10:30:30 EST
Organization: Shipbrook Software  (Tampa, FL)

Greetings from Godfrey!

Justin du Coeur writes:
> 
> Re: Surprises
> Continuing on this thread, Branwen writes:
>>Artists and fighters, by
>>the nature of what they do, are constantly comparing their art or their
>>fighting to other people's as a measure of improvement, so they would
>>have a pretty good idea when their skill level had reached peerage quality.
>>People who primarily do service, however, don't have the same kind of
>>measure to go against.
> 
> Oh, I don't know if that's really true -- there are measures for
> service as well. Running large-scale things well for a while tends
> to get a Pelican eventually. Running smaller scales very well for
> a long time often gets one to that point as well. I'd say that the
> measures for a Pelican may be a little more subjective, but they're
> definitely there.

This seems to vary by kingdom.  I've heard some people state that in
the kingdom in which they reside, the various service awards are just a
sequence of merit badges, with the Pelican being the highest one --
hold Kingdom office for a couple of years (doing a good job, of course)
or autocrat a lot of events, and you're practically guaranteed to get a
Pelican.

Here in Trimaris, the Pelicanate is the smallest of the three Peerages,
by choice of its members.  Not only is unselfish service required, but
they require a candidate to have all the qualities of a Peer, as well.
Most Pelicans will not even take a protege unless they already see these
qualities in the protege, as well.

I come originally from a region of the East Kingdom which seemed to be
somewhere in between these two attitudes; it was not merely a merit
badge (many Eastrealm Pelicans that I know *are* Peers in every sense
of the word), but I've known some Pelicans in the East who really did
not fit the image of a Peer. I won't mention any names, but IMHO it
cheapens the Peerage when rude, crass, belligerent people are added to
its ranks.

+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Net:  Jeff Lee / jlee@smylex.uucp / jlee%smylex.uucp@tscs.tscs.com     |
| SCA:  Lord Godfrey de Shipbrook / Wyvernwood, Trimaris                 |
|       Per pale azure and argent, a clarion counterchanged or and gules |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
    "The only thing that helps me maintain my slender grip on reality
    is the friendship I share with my collection of singing potatoes."
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: ddfr@quads.uchicago.edu (david director friedman)
Subject: Re: period fighting styles
Reply-To: ddfr@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 04:14:34 GMT


Charles Parr asks about evidence on shield durability, and suggests
that period padding was much inferior to foam. On the former, it is
worth noting that holmgang rules permitted each combatant three
shields, presumably used in succession. On the latter, I have been
fighting for years with horsehair cushions as helm padding; they work
fine.

David/Cariadoc
From: galahad@ecst.csuchico.edu (Mike "Sir Galahad" Polkinghorn)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Local group Info
Date: 23 Jan 93 21:10:31 GMT
Organization: California State University, Chico
NNTP-Posting-Host: cscihp.ecst.csuchico.edu


	Grettings to all.  Because of work requirements, I will be spending alot
of time in the next few months in what I believe is Caid.  I'm being stationed
in the Owens Valley in California between the cities of Ridgcrest and Lone Pine.

	I'm hoping to see if there are any local groups in that area, or at 
least where the nearest local group is.

	Thanks in advance.

-- 
Michael Polkinghorn					   Shire of Rivenoak
aka Michael the Bard					Principality of Cynagua 
"Witty Disclaimer"	Rivenoak!  It's a silly place     Kingdom of the West
From: icklinck@cayley.uwaterloo.ca (Ian "Rhys" Klinck)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Heraldic Questions...
Date: 25 Jan 93 16:26:24 GMT
Organization: University of Waterloo

re: non-"standard" heraldry:

How does this sound for a policy?

Have the CoA continue to accept arms under the current rules for design &
conflict with no extraordinary documentation.  HOWEVER, if someone wishes to
register a different style of heraldry (Hungarian, Japanese, Arabic, ...), they
must document it throughly, and, possibly, register it to a name of the
appropriate culture.

Sound Reasonable?

Rhys ap Bledri, of the College of Skeldergate and the Canton of Bryniau Tywynnog
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: nusbache@epas.utoronto.ca (Aryk Nusbacher)
Subject: Re: period fighting styles
Organization: University of Toronto - Office of the Provost
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 19:57:26 GMT


A previous post questioned whether shield attrition would be a serious
factor in mediaeval combat.

I have done some sword-and-buckler work with live steel and both steel
and wooden bucklers.  My personal experience is that anybody who
practiced with live steel must have had a closet full of shields,
because they get hacked to hell.

Shield attrition is also an offencive factor, since an attacker's
sword can often be trapped in the grain of the wood he is cutting.