HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: aterry@Teknowledge.COM (Allan Terry)
Newsgroups: sci.archaeology
Subject: origin of the Greek gods
Date: 13 Nov 92 16:47:22 GMT
Organization: Cimflex Teknowledge Corporation, Knowledge Systems Division

I've been reading about archaic Greece.  The picture I get is that Mycenaean
society failed somehow, there was a dark age of depopulation and economic
depression, and eventually what we recognize as archaic Greece emerged.
During these centuries, much of the culture changed: a near-Eastern
palace-centered economy changed to early versions of the city state, chariot
warfare changed to hopilites in phalanxes, literacy was lost and acquired
from a new source, colonization started, etc.

I'd love to know if there is evidence that the gods of classic Greece are
continuations of Mycenaean religion.  If myth and religion were part of the
discontinuity, where did the gods come from?  I always felt Homer's
depictions of the gods was of somewhat cloddish and one-dimensional folk.
Is the Roman adoption of Greek myth under Roman names (e.g., Athena/Minerva)
evidence that there was a common mythology predating both classic
civilizations?  I gather that Mycenaean writing was mostly by and for
accountants.  Is there any literary or other evidence for familiar gods and
myths, in earlier form, back to Mycenaean times?
					Allan
From: hecate@ac.dal.ca
Newsgroups: sci.archaeology
Subject: re: Boudicca
Date: 5 Nov 92 14:08:11 GMT
Organization: Dalhousie University, Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

Any opinions on the book "The Eagle and the Raven",
which is, if nothing else, a highly entertaining
fictional account of the conquest and occupation
of Roman Britain. Boudicca is the leader of the
uprising in this version.

Julia Holland
Newsgroups: sci.archaeology
From: mab@wdl39.wdl.loral.com (Mark A Biggar)
Subject: Re: Nov 3rd NOVA on pyramids
Organization: Loral Western Development Labs
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 23:38:39 GMT

In article <1992Nov5.173314.21442@news.eng.convex.com> joelw@convex.com (Joel Williamson) writes:
>I watched the Nov. 3 NOVA on pyramids.  One of the unresolved mysteries
>was how they got the blocks up the pyramid.  They debunked the notion of
>a long clay ramp, since it would have been a construction larger than
>the pyramid, and would have necessarily extended beyond the quarry site.
>It occurred to me that a switchback series of ramps could have been
>constructed across the face of a pyramid.  The ramps could have been
>constructed in place of the outermost row of stones, or an extra row of
>stones with the ramp built on them could have been added to each layer.
>When the pyramid was complete the ramps could be easily removed.  Has
>this ever been proposed or investigated?

The proposed ramp that wraps around the pyramid is just a easy to build and
doesn't have a sharp turns 90 deg vs 180 deg.

>Dragging stones up such ramps would probably leave telltale scars on the
>faces of the adjoining blocks.

Not if they did just like in the show and moved the blocks into place rough
and then finished them in place.  Such finishing would erase any skuff marks
or evidence of the wrap around ramp.

--
Mark Biggar
mab@wdl1.wdl.loral.com

>
>Best regards,
>
>Joel Williamson
>-- 
>
From: arm@crim.pinetree.org (Allen Maher)
Newsgroups: sci.archaeology
Subject: Re: Nov 3rd NOVA on pyramids
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 92 07:33:56 EST
Organization: CRIM Working Group, ICOMOS Canada

mikeq@freddy.CNA.TEK.COM (Mike Quigley) writes:

> In article <1992Nov6.034409.28555@cs.wisc.edu> ayoub@globey.cs.wisc.edu (Nabi
> 
> Besides, the pyramids were built by aliens.
> 
> Mike

What kind of nonsence is this about aliens, the civilization which 
spawned the pyramids were accomplished builders, they did not need 
extraterrestrial help.  The egyptians developed an interesting death and 
afterlife concept, the pyramids are an extension of this.

-arm
From: cla04@seq1.keele.ac.uk (A.T. Fear)
Newsgroups: sci.archaeology
Subject: Re: I say Boudicca, you say Bondica...
Date: 9 Nov 92 09:04:34 GMT
Organization: Keele University, England


A swift look at my text this morining reveals Boundouica from Dio as
well.  Does any one know have comments on an historical novel by one
George Shipway entitled Imperial Governor and apparently about Suetonius
Paulinus? BTW the King's Cross theory was the creation of Lewis Spence. 

Andy

=================================================================
ANDY FEAR 		  BLACKPOOL FC - THE PRIDE OF LANCASHIRE

cla04@seq1.keele.ac.uk    VIVA ER BETI MANQUE PIERDA		

or    			  TANGERINE AND GREEN... MAGIC
		  		 
Dept. of Classics,        
University of Keele,	 "I am willing to love all mankind, except 
Staffs ST5 5BG,		  an American"
ENGLAND. 		 	      - Dr Johnson
==================================================================
From: mab@wdl39.wdl.loral.com (Mark A Biggar)
Newsgroups: sci.archaeology
Subject: Re: Nov 3rd NOVA on pyramids
Date: 9 Nov 92 23:56:11 GMT
Organization: Loral Western Development Labs

In article <1992Nov9.175413.16730@cs.ucf.edu> clarke@acme.ucf.edu (Thomas Clarke) writes:
>I was a little disappointed that they didn't try a scheme for
>moving the blocks that I read about once in Science (Nature?).
>Imagine the block sitting on a bunch of wooden (bamboo, whatever)
>poles about 1 or 2 inches in diameter (3-5 cm).  The poles
>radiate in all directions so that a bunch of people can share in
>the lifting of the stone.  Each pole flexes so that the load is
>shared pretty equally among all the people.  If you assume 100
>people, each lifting 100 pounds, they can lift a 5 ton block.
>The 100 people would form a circle about 30 feet across, but if
>you use four people per pole, you could get the bunch into a 15 or
>20 foot circle.  
>The bunch of people then proceed to walk the block up the ramp.  No
>problems with friction, turning corners and the like.  Would be good
>to have a few strategically placed mounds to rest the block on 
>occasionally, though.
>Lots of variations possible.  Hang the block on a framework supported
>by many poles, etc. etc.  The key thing is to avoid the friction
>of dragging by using many people to carry the blocks.

Didn't you notice that method used to place the cap stone in the program?
They used nine crossed poles lashed together with 2 or three men on each pole.
That's basically just your method using a different arrangement of poles.

--
Mark Biggar
mab@wdl1.wdl.loral.com
From: cla04@seq1.keele.ac.uk (A.T. Fear)
Newsgroups: sci.archaeology
Subject: Re: Queen Baodicea
Date: 9 Nov 92 16:53:02 GMT
Organization: Keele University, England

From article <1992Nov6.220711.8764@engage.pko.dec.com>, by ed_eck@milkwy.enet.dec.com:
> 
> _The Life and Death of a Druid Prince_ by Anne Ross and Don Robins. 
> ISBN 0-671-69536-3. Published in Great Britan by Rider and in the USA
> by Summit Books.
> 
> I have it in front of me now--fascinating book about a bog body that was
> determined to have been a Druid prince who was sacrificed in 53 AD to the
> three highest Celt gods. His death was meant to stop the advance of the
> Romans. I've been trying for months to find time to post a condensation.
> 
> Ed Eck

I'm sorry, but conscience demands that I put an opposing view.  As a
work of speculative fiction this book works well, but do *any* of the
arguments, starting from the one that Lindow Man was a Druid, have even
a shred of hard *evidence* to back them up? I think 
Andy

=================================================================
ANDY FEAR 		  BLACKPOOL FC - THE PRIDE OF LANCASHIRE

cla04@seq1.keele.ac.uk    VIVA ER BETI MANQUE PIERDA		

or    			  TANGERINE AND GREEN... MAGIC
		  		 
Dept. of Classics,        
University of Keele,	 "I am willing to love all mankind, except 
Staffs ST5 5BG,		  an American"
ENGLAND. 		 	      - Dr Johnson
==================================================================
From: mikeq@freddy.CNA.TEK.COM (Mike Quigley)
Newsgroups: sci.archaeology
Subject: Re: Nov 3rd NOVA on pyramids
Date: 6 Nov 92 17:54:07 GMT
Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Redmond,  OR.

In article <1992Nov6.034409.28555@cs.wisc.edu> ayoub@globey.cs.wisc.edu (Nabil Ayoub) writes:
>coating on the top of the second Pyramid? Would not it be more logical that
>*if* it was the weather, then the coating on the top would be the first to
>deteriorate ? I appreciate all responses.
>
In a desert environment, the lower layers are more exposed to sandstorm
erosion and lingering moisture, both of which would cause the lower layers
to deteriorate more rapidly.

Besides, the pyramids were built by aliens.

Mike
From: mab@wdl39.wdl.loral.com (Mark A Biggar)
Newsgroups: sci.archaeology
Subject: Re: Nov 3rd NOVA on pyramids
Date: 9 Nov 92 23:50:26 GMT
Organization: Loral Western Development Labs

In article <4116@bcstec.ca.boeing.com> small@bcstec.ca.boeing.com (Peter Small) writes:
>In article <1992Nov6.034409.28555@cs.wisc.edu> ayoub@globey.cs.wisc.edu (Nabil Ayoub) writes:
>The question that I wonder about the pyramids is Why were they built?

No evidence has been found that they arn't just what they appear to be: TOMBS.
If you're absolute ruler and your people think you're a god, why not build the
biggest tomb anybody ever heard of?

>The name suggests something - PYR AMID - Fire in the middle.

Pyramid is greek have you look it up in a greek dictionary?
False etymology means nothing.
>
>If they were just for tombs, then why build them so exactly aligned to
>the polar axis? 

Why do 90% of modern cities have a road grid oriented NS vs EW?

>... Why were no mummies found in them? 

Because they were all robbed.  All of the pyramids contained evidence that
there was a mummy at one time buried in the pyramid, just someone else got to
it before we did.

>... And more to the line of this inquiry, how is it that they have stood 
> for over 4500 year and yet are still level and alligned with the poles 
> and the Nile Delta?

Because they are built on top of level solid bedrock.  and they arn't perfectly
aligned to the poles, they are just enough off alignment to account for the 
presession of the equinoxies sense the dates they were built.

>Some how, the idea of a bunch of men in loin clothes hauling blocks of
>limestone over greased ramps doesn't seem to fit the technology inherent
>in the building of these structures.  Much of the building technique
>cannot be reproduced today, including its accurate alignment.

Did you watch the NOVA episode?  They built a pyramid using only those
methods, including the alignment NS.  This uses only simple geometry.
As shown in the program, all you need is a shadow stick and a string compass.

>Much to look into here.

Nope very little.

--
Mark Biggar
mab@wdl1.wdl.loral.com
From: cla04@seq1.keele.ac.uk (A.T. Fear)
Newsgroups: sci.archaeology
Subject: Re: Queen Baodicea
Date: 12 Nov 92 14:13:20 GMT
Organization: Keele University, England

From article <zebee.721523757@sirius.ucs.adelaide.edu.au>, by zebee@sirius.ucs.adelaide.edu.au (Zebee Johnstone):
>>I'm sorry, but conscience demands that I put an opposing view.  As a
>>work of speculative fiction this book works well, but do *any* of the
>>arguments, starting from the one that Lindow Man was a Druid, have even
>>a shred of hard *evidence* to back them up? I think 
> 
> I haven't read the book, but I've seen the film...
>   
> As I remember, they deduced his staus as a druid from the fact that 
> his hands had no callouses.  IF he had been a farmer, herder, bard,
> or fighter then the marks of his profession would have been on his hands.
> (See also Sherlock Holmes).


Well this is a very Sherlockian deduction (I'm a fan too BTW) it looks
impressive at first sight, but is perhaps less so in the cold light of
day.  Can we be sure that *all* the people in the groups you list above
had callouses? Why couldn't Lindow man have been a bad fighter or one
who had seen little action for example.  Do we know that being a member
of an 'elite celtic warband' (I suppose the fianna of Ireland, not
mentioned by Ross and Robins if I remember correctly, would be the
nearest we have to this concept) involved years of arduous training? Do
we have any attestation that this was the case? Would being a bard have
left callouses on the hands at all? Nora Chadwick argues for the presence of
jurists and physicians in Celtic society which would leave other
alternatives open.  Even if Lindow Man did have a religious function
would that necessarily make him a Druid? Finally of course Lindow man
might just have been idle - it does happen even in primitive societies,
which would leave his social position wide open. 

I think that leaves us with a lot of alternatives to the R & R position
which seems to boil down to this 'here is a Celt who doesn't have
callouses on his hands, therefore he must be a Druid'.  All in all the
edifice R & R proceed to build rests on very shaky foundations which get
progressively worse after this bad start.  As fiction it's a good read,
as fact far too speculative to be taken seriously.  They need to show a
positive asscociation with the Druids for their theory to work and fail
to do so all we have is an argumentum ex silentio.  As Tacitus once
remarked, omne ignotum pro magnifico est, sadly that remains as true
today as when it was written. 

Andy
Newsgroups: sci.archaeology
From: cla04@seq1.keele.ac.uk (A.T. Fear)
Subject: Re: Queen Baodicea
Organization: U.S.Geological Survey
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 92 15:56:59 GMT

In article <Bx73vp.ArK@gabriel.keele.ac.uk> cla04@seq1.keele.ac.uk (A.T. Fear) writes:
>Boadicea's last stand...*The Rebellion of Boudicca*... Webster's effort 
*Boudica*..., Boadicea's tomb... 
>
>ANDY FEAR 		  BLACKPOOL FC - THE PRIDE OF LANCASHIRE
>Dept. of Classics,        
>University of Keele,	 "I am willing to love all mankind, except 
>Staffs ST5 5BG,		  an American"
>ENGLAND. 		 	      - Dr Johnson

	Now I know the brits talk funny, but they spell funny too.
But seriously folks, how is the name pronounced?  The spelling mix looks
like 3 syllables, "ooh" rather than "oh", and a hard c.

		A resident of a formerly colonial place.
.

--
    		Jim Robb 		jmr@nobska.er.usgs.gov	
		US Geological Survey 	(508) 457-2297
		Quissett Campus
		Woods Hole, MA 02543
Newsgroups: sci.archaeology
From: lrfox@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (linda ream fox)
Subject: Re: Queen Baodicea
Keywords: Baodicea
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1992 05:39:32 GMT


Re: Life and Death of A Druid Prince.

  As fiction it is marvelous, as research it makes great fiction.  Ross starts 
with a flimsy theory (the cake he had eaten appeared to be deliberately
burned) and from that point adds layer after layer of speculation, which she
then pours more speculation.  For instance.  ANimal hairs were found around the
body.  They might have been fox hairs.  The family Loviantor (sp?) was a high
ranking Briton clan sometimes associated with foxes.  Therefore his name has
to have been Lovaintor.  Flat statement.  The man is thereafter referred to as
Loviantor for the remainder of the book, ignoring other possible interpretation
or theory.  I'd avoid the book.

LRFOX
Newsgroups: sci.archaeology
From: chris@eso.mc.xerox.com (Chris Heiny 73186 - SETA)
Subject: Re: Nov 3rd NOVA on pyramids
Reply-To: chris@eso.mc.xerox.com
Organization: Xerox Corporation, Webster NY
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 18:25:44 GMT

In article <1992Nov11.184249.6310@digi.lonestar.org> gpalo@digi.lonestar.org (Gerry Palo) writes:
>found out the alignment had gotten off?  My suspicion is that given the
>most modern equipment and technology and unlimited amounts of money we still
>couldn't rebuild the Great Pyramid.  The blocks wouldn't match and the
>interior passages wouldn't link up.  It would be a fiasco, or rather it
>would be a patchwork of countless repairs and cosmetic coverups of 
>construction blunders.

Oh come off it.  If I can singlehandedly lay out 100 feet of 20' wide 
driveway (plus a perpendicular turnaround), with all corners at 90 
degrees, using nothing but a bunch of pointy sticks and two strings 
of known length (ok, I had a hammer, too), in about 60 minutes, it 
would be a good bet that a team of Egyptians could have done the same.  Maybe 
they could have even extended the techniques to larger projects.

The Eisenhower Tunnel on I-70 in Colorado was built using the most modern 
equipment and technology.  It's about 1 1/2 miles long, and the `interior 
passages` were off by just fractions of an inch in th middle.

							Chris


Newsgroups: sci.archaeology,soc.history,talk.politics.misc,can.politics
From: fskanes@kean.ucs.mun.ca
Subject: ANTHROPOLOGICAL NEWS NETWORK
Organization: Memorial University. St.John's Nfld, Canada
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 19:27:47 GMT
From: fsullivn@vax1.tcd.ie
Newsgroups: sci.archaeology
Subject: N American COLONIAL archaeology: info wanted
Date: 5 Nov 92 17:29:56 GMT
Organization: Trinity College Dublin

I need to find out quickly which areas of North America have had most work done
on their _Colonial_ archaeology.  I'm especially interested in stuff that has
already been published and ideally is available in the British Isles.

I realise the answer to this could run for fifty pages but at this stage I only
want a very rough idea of what areas I should plan to look at.

I'd be grateful if people could mail me direct although I'll happily post a
composite of any responses to the net.

Thanks in advance,

Fergus Sullivan,
Department of Medieval History,
Trinity College, Dublin.
Xref: sparky sci.archaeology:2754 talk.religion.newage:5177
From: vmg@cbnewse.cb.att.com (Mendoza-Grado)
Newsgroups: sci.archaeology,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Mayan Calendar Information Needed
Date: 10 Nov 92 23:48:18 GMT
Followup-To: talk.religion.newage
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories -- Holmdel, NJ

In article <1992Nov9.160401.19987@unocal.com> stgprao@st.unocal.COM (Richard Ottolini) writes:
>In article <1992Nov07.120253.160209@zeus.calpoly.edu> cambler@zeus.calpoly.edu (Christopher J. Ambler, Phish) writes:
>>The mayan calendar supposedly is cyclic and ends abruptly at the end
>>of an era in 2011 or 2012. Can anyone shed light on this for me? I'm
[...]
>
>The calendar doesn't end, but a major cycle returns to its starting point at
>that time.  The next smaller cycle had a turnover in 1988.  Some people
>celebrated it as the Harmonic Convergence day.

 As far as I know, Harmonic Convergence day was in 1987. But it does
 not matter because the next smaller cycle (katuns) has not changed
 since 1973 (it will again in 1993 according to GMT correlation)

 Anybody can shed some light on the supposed relation between the
 Maya calendar and Harmonic Convergence?

>People seem fascinated with large calendar cycles.  In eight years there will
>be a major turnover in the Christian calendar and people are getting excited.

 and then there are the ones ready to party right before 2000 and those
 holding out til the end of that year because their system of counting
 begins in year 1 CE.


      Victor


-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
|       _______                           |                          |
| O[][]( _____ ) Victor Mendoza-Grado     | "I knew the bars and dots|
|  [][]|( (_) )| Room 2N-429              |  were numbers.... I re-  |
|  [][]||     || AT&T Bell Laboratories   |  membered him telling me |
|  [][]||_   _|| 101 Crawfords Corner Rd. |  how the Mayans had in-  |
|  [][]|| " " || Holmdel, NJ 07733        |  vented the zero and had |
|  [][]|(_____)| mendoza-grado@att.com    |  done many interesting   |
| O[][](_______) Tel #: (908) 949-4155    |  things."                |
|                Fax #: (908) 949-5196    |   -- Richard Feynman     |
|  Ah Ts'oyesah                           |                          |
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
From: mt90dac@brunel.ac.uk (Del Cotter)
Newsgroups: sci.archaeology
Subject: I say Boudicca, you say Bondica...
Date: 6 Nov 92 14:38:47 GMT
Organization: Brunel University, West London, UK

jmr@nobska.er.usgs.gov (Jim Robb) writes:
>	Now I know the brits talk funny, but they spell funny too.
>But seriously folks, how is the name pronounced?  The spelling mix looks
>like 3 syllables, "ooh" rather than "oh", and a hard c.

Nonono.  Britons talk normally, Americans talk funny, *everybody* knows that :)

I say Boudicca, I don't care what anyone else says.  (That's BOO-dick-ah)

From Tudor times onwards, spellings have varied; Vandica, Vondica, Bondica,
Bodica etc.  The Victorians said Boadicea because it sounded nice and feminine
(BOW-di-SEE-a).  This is still a popular choice.  Snobs, purists and BSers like
me say Boudicca 'cos it impresses people.  Real classicists like Andy Fear can
doubtless tell you how Tacitus and Dio Cassius spelt it.

The short answer is, please yourself.
-- 
 ',' ' ',','  |                                                  |  ',' ' ',','
   ', ,','    |       Del Cotter       mt90dac@brunel.ac.uk      |    ', ,','  
     ','      |                                                  |      ','    
Newsgroups: sci.archaeology
From: wrp@pslsrv1.gvl.unisys.com (Bill Pringle)
Subject: Re: moving pyramid blocks
Organization: Paramax Systems, Ivyland, PA
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 04:11:50 GMT


In article <1992Nov11.181920.12542@b8.b8.ingr.com>:
>
>A few years ago I saw a documentary on the Jerusalem temple that seems like a
>good possibility for moving the Pyramid blocks, also. I can't remember if the
>show was talking about Solomon's or Herod's temple, but the method the ancients
>apparently used was to cut the blocks as huge stone cylinders, then roll them to
>the spot they wanted, then cut the cylinder on-site into the shape they wanted.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
When excavating under the temple mount, a long stone with a semi-circular
cross section was found.  The length matched those of the ashlars, and it
was speculated that this stone was removed from the ashlar.

While a very interesting theory, consider that it was the only such stone
that was found.  It seems that, even if this was the origin of the stone,
it wasn't a common practice.
============================================================================
Bill Pringle                      Software Tools
Paramax Corporation               Voice: (215)443-7500 X4023
Internet: wrp@ivy.unisys.com      UUCP: ...!uunet!mimsy!widener!gvls1!wrp%ivy
From: haynes@cats.ucsc.edu (Jim Haynes)
Newsgroups: sci.archaeology
Subject: Re: Queen Baodicea
Date: 9 Nov 1992 07:02:45 GMT
Organization: University of California; Santa Cruz
NNTP-Posting-Host: hobbes.ucsc.edu
Keywords: Baodicea


Is it from her name that we get the word "bodacious"?
-- 
haynes@cats.ucsc.edu
haynes@cats.bitnet

"Ya can argue all ya wanna, but it's dif'rent than it was!"
"No it aint!  But ya gotta know the territory!"
        Meredith Willson: "The Music Man"
From: schumach@convex.com (Richard A. Schumacher)
Newsgroups: sci.archaeology
Subject: Re: Nov 3rd NOVA on pyramids
Date: 10 Nov 92 18:19:45 GMT
Article-I.D.: convex.schumach.721419585
Organization: CONVEX Computer Corporation, Richardson, Tx., USA
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

In <4116@bcstec.ca.boeing.com> small@bcstec.ca.boeing.com (Peter Small) writes:

>If they were just for tombs, then why build them so exactly aligned to
>the polar axis?  Why were no mummies found in them?  And more to the
>line of this inquiry, how is it that they have stood  for over 4500 year
>and yet are still level and alligned with the poles and the Nile Delta?

Oh, for cryin' out loud:

1) Streets are just for cars. Why build them so exactly aligned to the 
polar axis? 

2) The mummies were looted out, along with everything else. 

3) Why would the pyramids NOT stay level? 

4) And what is meant by "aligned with the Nile Delta"? Is this in the 
same sense in which New Orleans is aligned with the Mississippi delta?