From: clifto@indep1.UUCP (Cliff Sharp)
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
Subject: Re: they really want SALARY HISTORY
Date: 11 Nov 92 18:40:42 GMT
Organization: as little as possible

In article <BxC29y.FD5.2@cs.cmu.edu> msm@mse.cmu.edu (Mark S McWhinney) writes:
> [comments omitted]
>clifto@indep1.UUCP (Cliff Sharp):
>
>>   There are those of us who don't choose to release salary history because:
>> 1) We feel it's highly personal.  If you can't offer us something in the
>>    range we deserve, we'd like to know that off the bat.
>
>If you are hired, your boss will have to know your salary for
>budgeting reasons.  Personnel and accounting will also know.  If you
>are not hired, you probably will never see those people again.
>
>I will not tell my salary to my friends or coworkers, but in an
>interview, I have no problem.  If you feel uncomfortable about it,
>I'll respect your views, but if I am your hiring manager I will insist
>on your salary history as will nearly everyone who is hiring for
>non-entry level positions.

   That's why I usually try to work through a headhunter/contract consulting
firm and let _them_ handle the negotiations.  Besides, they usually know
better about what the market will bear.  So, usually my remark is that I
consider it kind of personal and prefer that they handle salary negotiations
and discussions with my agent.  I usually find that respected.

>>3) In the Chicago area, many employment ads are to blind addresses.  
>
>This is true all over.  It is usually done to protect the company's
>strategic plans from its competitors.  Imagine if you were in the network

   Or, to hide a company with a bad reputation.  Some years ago, after
running 1/4 to 1-page ads every Sunday in the paper, one local company
actually put up a billboard saying "Help Wanted: Engineers, Technicians,
Draftsmen."  It stood there for at least six months.  Now, that told me
that either:
1) Conditions, or
2) Salaries, or
3) Management and the bureaucracy, or
4) Working conditions, or
5) Any combination of the above
was/were substandard and they couldn't hold people.
   Or, to hide the fact that they're replacing _you_...
   Or, to find out which people in their own organization are in the
process of leaving...
   Both of the latter are from employment managers and corroborated by
most local headhunters.

>business and saw a lot of ads from Apple for TCP/IP network related
>positions.  You could conclude that Apple will be coming out with a
>new product line of TCP/IP networks in the next 6 to 12 months.

   Personally, I'd ask for a wide variety of skills and file the resumes
that didn't show TCP/IP; but I can see your point.  My point is, I find it
very intimidating and risky to answer a blind ad.

>>    (Incidentally, by
>>    reputation, Booz, Allen & Hamilton has a VERY bad name in this area;
>>    most people who are laid off here get notice by meeting a large guard
>>    who will not allow them access to the building, or so I'm told.)
>
>Thanks for the tip.  Do you have more information on them?

   Well, I think they only do it because they've been burned by a coder
who managed to remove great quantities of data in the morning of the day
he was informed he wouldn't be back the next day.
   One local insurance company which shall remain nameless is famous for
laying off dozens of people (the number 100 sticks in my mind, for some
reason which might be related to reality); they left for lunch on Friday,
and arrived back to stand in line and be escorted to their desks in threes
to retrieve their personal belongings.  (They now run only blind ads,  BTW;
they must not get responses to open ones any more.  :-)  That story from
my favorite headhunter, who got more calls in one day about new placements
than in any other day he's been in the business.

>>4) Salaries are ALWAYS negotiable.  If I tell you I left Zenith Data Systems
>>    at a salary of just over $22,000/year (the absolute minimum for my
>>    position), why does that make me less valuable than the lady there who
>>    told me she was not only a better programmer (she couldn't even handle
>>    examining incoming software from vendors, she asked for my help about once
>>    per DAY), she was a better PERSON than I was because she had a degree in
>>    Ancient European History?  (She was making $28,000/year; after she made
>>    her statement, she lost the only helper she had, and so far as I know
>>    she did nothing further except filing until she left the company.)
>
>Well now the whole world knows your salary history.

   A simple call to ZDS would give you the min/max range for their low-end
programmers, so not too much I could hide once I named names.

>>    JFYI, I left that $22,000/year job to become a $36,500/year consultant.
>>    Mostly because I _refused_ to discuss my current income, only my
>>    qualifications.
>
>Huh?

   It went something like this:
Company: What are you making, and what are you looking for?
Me: I'd rather not discuss it until we're both sure we're serious about
     each other.
Company: What would it take to make YOU serious about US?
Me: (pulling outrageous figure from air) $36,000.
Company: Fine.

>>    If I read you right (and with appropriate apologies, perhaps I
>> haven't), you're exactly the kind of person who's more impressed with
>> Ph.D.s than with accomplishments.
>
>The snide comments about academics in my early postings should
>indicate that I am frustrated with Ph.D.s (and others) that have no
>clue as to what goes on in industry.  The well meaning but ignorant
>comments about salary histories from people who have never had a real
>carrer in industry only serve to annoy even more.

   Haven't seen too many postings, being new here, but I withdraw my remark
and apologize in total agreement.
-- 
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