HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: faris@sarcasm.trl.OZ.AU (Aziz Faris)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Arab/Isreali Wars
Date: 19 Aug 92 22:47:42 GMT
Reply-To: a.Faris@trl.oz.au
Organization: Telecom Research Labs, Melbourne,Australia

In article <stricher-180892001707@stayman.ocean.fsu.edu>, stricher@masig.fsu.edu (Char Aznabul) writes:
|>> 
|> Speaking of the Arab/Israeli wars, could someone explain to
|> me [very slowly if you must ;] how in 1973 the Syrians managed
|> to get two armies up on the Golan without the Israelis 
|> finding out about it *before* they attacked?
|> 
|> K'Char

I don't know, however, I saw a documentary when I lived in the US on PBS that analysed
the 1973 war. It turned out that the syrian army could have destroyed Isreal had they
not stopped and waited for re-inforcements that were not needed. On a certain battle,
the syrian forces broke through Isreali lines and were unstoppable, according to the
interviewed Isreali general stationed in the Golan Heights. However, the syrian forces
came to a halt waiting for re-inforcements with out knowing that nothing was in front of
them. According to the analysis, they had enough forces to have encircled the entire
Isreali army in the Golan heights. Isreal was lucky?, No, I think the syrians were given
the wrong information by the soviet intelligence so that the conflict continues with no
decisive victors.

A.Faris 
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Subject: Re: Lehi and nazies
Organization: Brown University Department of Computer Science
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 15:54:34 GMT

arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens) writes: (to Alan H. Stein).
#
#Ok, this does it.  You're knowingly lying, that is clear now.  Your
#repeated assertions concerning the reasons behind LEHIs offer to fight
#on the German side are nothing but your own baseless invention.

Not necessarily; I view his position as a legimitate interpretation
of what LEHI had in mind. While not condoning neither this nor
other things LEHI had done, I reject your one-dimensional and over-
simplified interpretation of their motives. 

-Danny Keren.

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: sethr@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (seth.r.rosenthal)
Subject: Re: politics
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 13:29:53 GMT

In article <1992Aug20.184253.10830@ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM>, nabil@ncrcol.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM (Nabil Idriss) writes:
> 
> 
> Who stole who? in 1948 we stole the land from you? come on!
> 

So I see you have no problem with returning the homes in Hebron
to their 1929 owners and descendants, who were massacred and expelled.

You likewise have no problem with returning the homes in the
Jewish quarter of the Old City (Read East Jerusalem) to their
pre-1948 owners.

I could go on.

> so on they were there 2000 years ago and they were not called Joranians, they were
> called Palestinians. The Jews were there 2000 years ago and before the Jews the 
> Philstines were there. I can go back in history as much as you want.
> 

We go through this every so often.  Two month's ago the
Archeological Review had an article about the Philistines.
It is pretty conclusive about what happened to them, the
same thing that happened to the Israelites and the Judaeans.
The Babylonians took them off and re-populated the land with
other Eastern peoples.  Unlike the Israelites and Judaeans,
the Philistines did not support a later ruler and get returned
at least in part to their land.  This is confirmed by the fact
that no mention is made of Philistines in Josephus' books
(other than as a historical "they once lived here and fought
against the Jews") or in the Roman accounts of the period.
Even in Gaza, when Trajan's forces assault the Jewish city
of Gaza, once the capital of the Philistine confederation
(of 5 coastal cities with almost no connecting land, btw)
no mention of Philistines is made, but 5 other non-Judaean
peoples are mentioned.  Arabs are mentioned living in
Amman (then Philadelphia) during this period though.

Result: there haven't been Philistines in the Israel/Palestine
region since 850 B.C.E.  The choice of the name Palestine
was made by the Romans who were trying to make the place
seem less Judaean after the 3 major revolts.  They dug up
the name from the historical enemies of the Jews long gone
from the region.

By the way, Nabil, Philistines weren't Arabs or even Asiatic.
They first attacked Egypt, then were pushed west to Gaza,
then attempted to invade Judaea, were successful at first
but driven back to 5 small coastal enclaves by King David.
They were early Greeks.  Are you a Greek? Is Hasan Mutlu out there? -:)

		Seth Rosenthal

Disclaimer: All opinions are my own not my employers'.
From: hillel@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (hillel.e.markowitz)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Israeli Loan Guarantees
Date: 19 Aug 92 13:36:18 GMT
Organization: AT&T Federal Systems

In article <22220@venera.isi.edu> arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens) writes:
>In article <1992Aug16.111256.16924@discus.technion.ac.il> davidba@carmel.technion.ac.il (David Ben_Ami) writes:
>>
>> In article <1992Aug14.134659.25728@ncsu.edu> hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU (Brad Hernlem) writes:
>> >
>> >Actually, the settlements have not been frozen unless you consider
>> >continued construction on settlements already under construction, a
>> >"freeze". Also, there have been no guarantees, indeed it has been
>>
>> C'mon now, there's no use to stop buildings who are already practically
>> finished (only roof etc.).
>
>Perhaps.  But according to Rabin, building will continue on ALL
>structures where it has begun, not just those that are almost finished.
>So even where only foundation work has started, the building will be
>completed.  And based on the fact that Shamir accelerated the pace in
>his last few months, I would hazard the guess that there are more buildings
>in their early stages than in their late stages of construction.
>--
>Yigal Arens   "He seems like an average type of man.  He's not, like, smart.
>USC/ISI        I'm not trying to bag on him or anything, but he has the same

You seem to be forgetting Hank Nussbachers posts about the freeze
in Karnei Shomron entitled "Drying out the Settlements" which you
commented on.  Apparently the government is going to have to pay a
lot of money to contracters for building 75% or more completed that
it has ordered stopped.

Hillel Markowitz        H_Markowitz@att.com
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,misc.headlines,talk.politics.misc,alt.conspiracy,alt.censorship
From: eggertj@moses.atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert x6127 g41)
Subject: Re: BACK TO LIMBAUGH'S SECRET NONAGENDA
Reply-To: eggertj@atc.ll.mit.edu
Organization: MIT Lincoln Lab - Group 41
	<1992Aug13.011213.24260@bony1.bony.com>
	<EGGERTJ.92Aug13154746@moses.atc.ll.mit.edu>
	<1992Aug21.214940.1349@bony1.bony.com>
Date: 23 Aug 92 00:03:53

In article <1992Aug21.214940.1349@bony1.bony.com> jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni) writes:
>   And another step to say that the 3 million Israelis are trying to
>   annihilate the 200 million Arabs so that they can control the M.E. and
>  then go on to control the world.

A hyperbole that you, Jake, must take sole responsibility for.

>   While Arab murderers routinely cry out "Itbach al Yahud!  Allahu
>   Akbar!" (Slaughter the Jews!  God is great!) when killing Jews, no
>   such behavior is apparent on the Israeli side.

I guess you have conveniently forgotten the recent riots in the Gaza
Strip, when the Jewish crowds were yelling "Kill the Arabs!"?  (This
was by no means unique to this riot, mind you.)

[re the 1950's Israeli bomb attacks on the US information center
libraries in Cairo and Alexandria]

>   When you have to dig into pre-history to find anything that vaguely
>   resembles the continuing and current modus-operandi of the PLO, it
>   shows how weak your argument is.  

Just what is your time limit on partisan politics, Jake?  Looks like
40 years is too long when it involves Israeli terrorism, and (from
earlier in your same posting)

>   Palestinean Arabs, like other Arabs, have for centuries resorted to
>   gross violence for the solution of even minor disputes.

about two hundred years is none too long when it involves Palestinian
violence.  What a hypocrite.
--
=Jim  eggertj@atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: odkahn@eos.ncsu.edu (OPHER DANIEL KAHN)
Subject: Re: NUKE IRAQ
Organization: North Carolina State University
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 17:03:51 GMT

In article <4732@daily-planet.concordia.ca>, ilyess@davinci.concordia.ca (Ilyess Bdira) writes:
|> 
|> A democratic government will be by definition sincere (it has to be,
|> since it represents the people) and it will pressure Israel into
|> giving away to Palestinian demands or face a REAL WAR..

I beg to differ.  Is the American government sincere? or any other that
you can name?  Democracy does not assure anything like sincerity.

|> The superiority of Israel is a myth, because they never faught a 
|> sincere army that is determined to win. They faught some losers who
|> used the conflict to prolong their dictatorship.
|> Israel can not survive a month of war, that is why all the past wars
|> were so short.

No, the past wars were short because Israel *WON* them in a short time.
The Americans had to pressure Isreael to stop fighting (to eliviate 
Soviet pressures and threats) before getting too close to both Cairo
and Damascus.

|> 
|> When Israel realizes that it is dealing with real people (hopefully
|> before such a war would happen), they will agree to sign a real
|> just peace treaty. Any agreement before that is illegitimate and immature. 

If we have to wait for the emergance of democratic governments in the 
Arab countries, we will have peace around the year 2100.

|> 
|> >Rad

-- 
 Opher D. Kahn 
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Israel and Palestinians
Organization: The Department of Redundancy Department
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 92 17:31:04 GMT

In article <765193d3447283t72@witsend.uucp> dcs@witsend.uucp (D. C. Sessions) writes:
>In <1992Aug7.034524.28433@wam.umd.edu>, aap@wam.umd.edu (Alberto Adolfo Pinkas)  wrote:

># This is the only place that I know that considers a person part of a
># nation, and applies a law of return, based on a religious belief.

>  Try SA.  There, you can't even get TOURIST status w/o proper
>  religious credentials.

Do you mean Saudi Arabia?  The same Saudi Arabia that we sent
half-a-million soldiers to protect?  In the Desert Storm that 
George Bush claimed at the time was about defending the American 
way of life?  I didn't realize that the American way of life
extended to excluding infidels from Holy Moslem Soil.  
Poor Mr.Bush...

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com               Pat Paulsen for President
American-Occupied New York                    This year he has a real chance!
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.
From: stricher@masig.fsu.edu (Char Aznabul)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Arab/Isreali Wars
Date: 18 Aug 92 04:16:49 GMT
Followup-To: talk.politics.mideast
Organization: Murasami Labs

Speaking of the Arab/Israeli wars, could someone explain to
me [very slowly if you must ;] how in 1973 the Syrians managed
to get two armies up on the Golan without the Israelis 
finding out about it *before* they attacked?

K'Char
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Bosnia, Concentration Camps, Dr.Arens
Organization: The Department of Redundancy Department
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 92 22:37:49 GMT

In article <22184@venera.isi.edu> arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens) writes:

>The question *I* was responding to was, "Have Jewish groups condemned
>ethnic cleansing"? -- not, "Have they condemned concentration camps",
>but have they condemned "ethnic cleansing".
>
>As the original poster was quite clearly asking about major American
>Jewish organizations (all of which are Zionist and strong supporters of
>Israel) I answered that I would not expect such groups to oppose this
>policy since it is quite similar -- certainly in intent -- to the policy
>engaged in by Israelis in 1948 and later.  Not unlike the "ethnic
>cleansing" we see today, Israeli actions resulted in hundreds of
>thousands of Arab refugees who are unable to return to their homes and
>land, property which was destroyed or taken over by Jews.

Actually, the "ethnic cleansing" that Arabs practiced and continue to
practice in their countries have resulted in about a million Jewish
refugees being unable to return to THEIR homes in these Arab states.
Many thousands of Jews were slaughtered in these Arab states at the
hands of mobs and by government troops.  This is not very different
from the tragedy in Yugosalvia today.  By your very same logic, I
would expect Jews in Israel and in the USA to denounce and oppose the
practice "ethnic cleansing".  

You might also note, that while the Arab states continue this practice
today, and even escalated it during Desert Shield/Storm, creating a
million or more new refugees, Israel outlawed the Kach party merely
for purported racism and for views which barely reached the depths of
"ethnic cleansing" so common in some other states today.
-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com               Pat Paulsen for President
American-Occupied New York                    This year he has a real chance!
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.
From: arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Rating Evil
Date: 14 Aug 92 18:24:50 GMT
Organization: USC/Information Sciences Institute
In-reply-to: eitan@wiscon.weizmann.ac.il's message of 13 Aug 92 06:32:17 GMT

In article <1992Aug13.063217.21948@wisipc.weizmann.ac.il> eitan@wiscon.weizmann.ac.il (Shternbaum Eitan) writes:
>
> BTW as to the landau commitie report, Yigal Arens is right pointing
> out to someone some while ago that the report had a hidden chapt Yigal
> is also right stating that this guy should not make assumptions over
> matters which are not known ... pitty Yigal doesn't liste Yigal, did
> you ever read any part of the landau report ? (I must say i didn't,
> but then i'm not a self claimed export in torturing techniques ...)

Yes, I've read parts that were quoted in Israeli papers.  I've even
posted some portions in the past, including this week.
--
Yigal Arens   "He seems like an average type of man.  He's not, like, smart.
USC/ISI        I'm not trying to bag on him or anything, but he has the same
arens@isi.edu  mentality I have -- and I'm in the eighth grade."     Vanessa
               Martinez, after VP Quayle's visit to her school-LA Times 5/21
From: nabil@ncrcol.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM (Nabil Idriss)
Subject: Re: Bosnia, Concentration Camps, YIGAL ARENS
Organization: NCR E&M Columbia SC.
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 92 16:16:38 GMT

In article <22209@venera.isi.edu> arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens) writes:
>In article <4105@bimacs.BITNET> ehrlich@bimacs.BITNET (Gideon Ehrlich) writes:
>>
>> Don't fool us Yigal. You expect nothing but seeing all people of
>> the world hating the state of Israel and  Jews in general
>>  ( beside seeing the check you permanently get from the PLO helping
>>    you running your HATE ISRAEL center - you are using a mild term for
>>    that center).
>
>Which reminds me.  Could you please put in a good word for me with your
>close friends at the PLO?  What I want is a regular *stream* of checks,
>you see, instead of the that one permanent one.  Use your harsher term
>for my HATE ISRAEL center in your talks with them.  It can't hurt.
>Thanks.
>--
>Yigal Arens   "He seems like an average type of man.  He's not, like, smart.
>USC/ISI        I'm not trying to bag on him or anything, but he has the same
>arens@isi.edu  mentality I have -- and I'm in the eighth grade."     Vanessa
>               Martinez, after VP Quayle's visit to her school-LA Times 5/21


The PLO is broke, they don't have money any more. I bet you it won't be long
before Israel will have face to face negotiation with the PLO.
-- 
Nabil Idriss                           |       FOR EVERY ACTION AN OPPOSITE  
NCR - Midrange Products Division       |       AND EQUAL REACTION.
      Columbia, South Carolina         |      
email: nabil@ncrcol.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM |
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: nabil@ncrcol.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM (Nabil Idriss)
Subject: Re: BILL CLINTON ON ISRAEL AND THE MIDDLE
Organization: NCR E&M Columbia SC.
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 92 20:26:38 GMT

>  Who's this "someone who stole the land" ?. Do you mean that Palestinians bought
>  the land from a thief ?. I doubt that the British gov will agree. After all,
>  plenty of Palestinians expelled in 48 have official ownership titles signed from
>  the British administration.

   My father have a British Passport issued in Palestine. I still have it.



-- 
Nabil Idriss                           |       FOR EVERY ACTION AN OPPOSITE  
NCR - Midrange Products Division       |       AND EQUAL REACTION.
      Columbia, South Carolina         |      
email: nabil@ncrcol.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM |
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Lehi and nazies
From: rdtst+@pitt.edu (Richard D Thorne)
Date: 19 Aug 92 13:44:30 GMT
Organization: University of Pittsburgh

| Governments and individuals commit crimes, not whole peoples. This talk of the
| "wrongs committed by the British" is simple racism.
| 
| 
| --
| 
| Phill Hallam-Baker
| 

    You want to condemn LEHI, Zionists, Israel, but its racism to condemn the
  "British".   You operate on a double standard.  In a democracy
  like Britain, US, France, and Israel the people do have a level of 
  responsibility for the actions of their governments.  For some on TPM it is
  standard operating practice to criticize Israel for the actions of its
  government.  When someone says "Israel sanctions torture"  they know full
  well that the average Israeli, like the average US or Brit citizen is a
  humane person who opposes torture.  The government in Israel is a reflection
  of the will of the people there so it would follow that either both the
  government and the people (the majority) support a policy or oppose a policy.

  The British government reflecting the will of the people of Britain of that
  time supported a policy that lead to the death of thousands of Jews.  The
  government of Israel reflecting the will of the people of Israel has done,
  is doing and will continue to do some things that are wrong.  Democracy is
  not perfect and people can be mislead.  The actions of the government of
  Israel will tend to have the same moral quality as the people who it
  represents.  Since Israelis, Brits, US citizens etc share similar beliefs
  about what is right and wrong the moral quality of their governments will
  also be about the same. 

  Supporters of Israel do so because they believe that Israel and Israelis
  have the right to be judged by the same standards as other democracies. 
  Admittedly Israel does some things wrong, but I think that the US would
  act similarly (or even worse) if in the same situation.  If you are opposed
  to the "racist" blanket condemnation of a people you can start by trying to
  put yourself in the situation of Israelis before condemning the actions
  those who represent them.  It's time to join the human race.

      Richard Thorne
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: bx573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alan H. Stein)
Subject: Re: Lehi and nazies
Reply-To: bx573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alan H. Stein)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 92 21:26:52 GMT


In a previous article, bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay) says:

>>Let's get real here.  Shamir wasn't offering aid;  he was trying to deal
>>with them in order to save Jewish lives.  There's a significant difference,
>>which you are totally ignoring.
>
>Enough is enough!  If you have never read the offer OF ACTIVE HELP
>that Lehi made to the Nazis, why are you making a fool of yourself
>by pontificating about it?  If you _have_ read it, why are you lying?
>
Active help in return for what?  My point has been that they were trying to
save Jewish lives, not trying to help the Nazis, while the British
knowingly fought against actions to save Jewish lives.
-- 
bx573@cleveland.freenet.edu----Alan H. Stein----stein@uconnvm.uconn.edu
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:18762 misc.headlines:5679 talk.politics.misc:40306 alt.conspiracy:10072
From: eggertj@moses.atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert x6127 g41)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,misc.headlines,talk.politics.misc,alt.conspiracy,alt.censo
Subject: Re: BACK TO LIMBAUGH'S SECRET NONAGENDA
Date: 17 Aug 92 17:27:11 GMT
Reply-To: eggertj@atc.ll.mit.edu
Organization: MIT Lincoln Lab - Group 41

In article <oiFkPB1w165w@valpso.hanse.de> tichauer@valpso.hanse.de (Manfredo Tichauer) writes:
>   As a Jew and Zionist I can't deny that there was also a jewish/zionist terro-
>   rist group: LEHI (also called Stern Gang, because of its founder Avraham Stern)
>   a group that splittet from the IRGUN on June.1940, a right wing underground
>   group led by Begin and Shamir, that ALSO commited terrorist assaults. There is
>   enough jewish literature about it (e.g. Encyclopaedia Judaica) where you can
>   read about it. The difference between jewish and arabic terrorism is that 
>   jewish terrorism was criticized openly by the jewish establishment (Jewish
>   Agency, at that time practically the oficial jewish government before Israel
>   was born). Arabic terrorism has NEVER been criticized by arabic leaders and
>   governments: either they didn't say anything publicly against the terrorists
>   after they commited an atentate against civilians (e.g. Maalot, Munich, etc.
>   etc.etc.) or they found a cheap or fine excuse for it, and even some welcomed
>   it openly. If Jim Eggert believes that Israel is a terrorist country, then he
>   doesn't know anything very much about history. Israel is a "terrorist" country
>   as any other democratic country, included USA. The big difference is that
>   Israel is a small country surrounded by very dangerous undemocratic and
>   totalitarian countries and peoples, who have enough petro-dollars to buy any
>   kind of armaments they wish to destroy Israel.  

I do not believe that Israel is a terrorist country, and have never
claimed that it is.  This slur was due to Jake Livni, who prefers to
attack straw men rather than real arguments.

Certainly the LEHI and Irgun terrorism is _not_ an example of Israeli
terrorism, as they were not Israeli institutions (but rather Zionist
ones).

Israel has, however, engaged in certain practices that I would have to
characterize as terrorism, in part against the US.  These include the
bombing of the US information center libraries in Cairo and
Alexandria, along with the Alexandria central post office.

Such attacks clearly constitute terrorism.  The geographical size or
lack of petro-dollars of Israel does not change their nature.
--
=Jim  eggertj@atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast