HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Strange needs (who might need an 040)
From: feijai@endor.byu.edu (Sean Luke)
Date: 11 Nov 92 15:48:20 -0700
Reply-To: sean@digaudio.byu.edu
Distribution: world

In article <TTN.92Nov11063146@kivikkorastas.cs.tut.fi>  writes:
>In article <1992Nov10.100926.1132@yvax.byu.edu> feijai@endor.byu.edu  
(Sean Luke) writes:
>   Your argument is a variation of "But I don't need that power."  I  
agree.   
>   The NeXT is for high-end stuff.  If you don't need a NeXT, don't buy  
one.   
>   (I have an SE).
>
>And if you need real power, you are selecting from the wrong machines in
>the first place.


Well, yes, but not all of us can cough up the money for a Cray.  :-)


--

Sean Luke
Brigham Young University                   MILK:  It Comes From Cows
sean@digaudio.byu.edu  
NeXTmail and nifty Mac stuff welcome
From: 5marte_f@spcvxb.spc.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: <None>
Date: 12 Nov 92 00:12:28 GMT
Organization: St. Peter's College, US

Hello !

	Can someone email me a few good ftp site addresses, or telnet site 
addresses to find Mac programs. I'd really appreciate it.

	the address is :   5marte_f@spcvxa.spc.edu

	Thanx In Advance
	Felix Marte
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: cosc184z@menudo.uh.edu (David Alten)
Subject: Re: Performa 600
Organization: University of Houston
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 17:19:06 GMT

Actually, doesn't the Performa 600 have a 16 bit bus, where the vx has a
true 32 bit one?  This should really slow down the Performa....

-- 
David Alten
cosc184z@menudo.uh.edu
HE KUER!!
From: andrew@cubetech.com (Andrew Loewenstern)
Subject: Re: specifically comparing NeXT with Mac...
Organization: Cube Technologies, Inc.
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1992 06:06:08 GMT

In article <torrie.721162819@Xenon.Stanford.EDU> torrie@cs.stanford.edu (Evan Torrie) writes:
>spagiola@frinext.stanford.edu (Stefano Pagiola) writes:
>
>>Not quite.  A Q700 is really equivalent to a non-turbo color NeXT, so  
>>that comparison is misleading.  The proper comparison is between a  
>>Q950 and a Turbo color NeXT.
>>According to my edu price list, a Turbo Color NeXTstation 16/250 is  
>>$4790; the 21" monitor is $2392:  Total $7182
>>A Q950 8/230 is $5520; 21" monitor is $2630, total 8150
>>So the NeXT still has a price advantage.  Notice also that you're  
>>actually getting a better system (eg 16MB RAM vs 8).
>
>  Hmmm.  I didn't notice the 5 NuBus 90 slots in the Turbo Colour
>NeXTstation last time I looked...

Just what would you put in those 5 slots?  Realistically now.


andrew
-- 
andrew@cubetech.com     | "Carpe Nocturn - I get more work done after
Andrew Loewenstern      |  2 a.m. than most people do all day."
Cube Technologies, Inc. |                          - Simson Garfinkel
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: parkhill@cpsc.ucalgary.ca (Robert Parkhill)
Subject: The future of Apple
Organization: The Ohio State University Department of Computer and Information Science
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 03:52:08 GMT

Well, I was talking about the Newton with some freinds the other day, and
it got me to thinking about Apples future. If the Newton can deliver what
has been promised, and I see no real reason why it wouldn't (perhaps a
year or so late though), then Apples marketing plans would drastically
change. With Scully leading things, Apple is going to market towards getting
a PDA in everyones pocket, not a Computer on 10% of the desktops.  I can 
see Apple going as far as the introduction of the PowerPC, and then turning
that over to IBM, phasing out the low-end Macs, and eventually trashing
the entire Mac line(what's the use when PowerPC will be so much better?)
Scully wants to grab the market of all those Pepsi drinking, Dorrito snacking
people out there and sell them a High-tech notebook(well, obviosly more than
just a notebook...) In other words... if Scully leads Apple into the future, 
I don't see the Macintosh lasting more then another 5 years.
What are other peoples opinions on this?

        Rob

---
Rob Parkhill
parkhill@cpsc.ucalgary.ca
From: ibhan@husc8.harvard.edu (Ishir Bhan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: specifically comparing NeXT with Mac...
Date: 10 Nov 92 19:25:59 GMT
Article-I.D.: husc3.1992Nov10.142600.17304
Organization: Harvard University Science Center

>SuperMac, Radius, Ikegami, Sony, Hitachi, etc...).  The only problem
>with scanners is that people haven't written the software.  You got me
>there.  There are some pretty good cheap scanners that will work on a
>NeXT, and some of the better scanners will work as well.

Then what good is the scanner without software?

>NeXTSTEP just won't run on an 030 with acceptable performance.
>NeXTSTEP is a real operating system and requires a lot more system
>resources to do the things that it does.  That's why NeXT only makes
>33 mhz 040 machines now.

Oh, and all other operating systems are "imaginary"?

Hey, I have a SupraFaxModem which will soon have voice support.  Fax
software is available to support the modem now.  Voice software will be
when voice support is added.  How would I use this on the NeXT?  Nuff
said.  These are the kind of shortcomings I'm talking about.  

-- 
             --      Ishir Bhan (ibhan@husc.harvard.edu)      --
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: shopsis@panther.adelphi.edu (Charles Shopsis)
Subject: Speed Query Quadra vs. 486
Organization: Adelphi University - Node: Boole
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 16:43:22 GMT

I'm a long-term MS-DOS user, not because of any religious reasons ... 
primarily from circumstance. I'm fairly "computer literate", and get asked 
lots of questions from my less experienced colleagues, but I know nothing 
about Macs.  A physical chemist who has written a C program to do extensive 
calculations is in need of speed.  Right now he's using a 386SX 16 Mhx 
machine, or time-sharing on a busy VAX.  Someone in our building has been 
boasting about the speed of his new Quadra.  Does anyone have any benchmark 
data on the speed of this machine relative to an 80486/50 or to 
workstations?  I suspect this may be a FAQ; I apologize in advance if it is.
Xref: sparky comp.sys.mac.advocacy:2467 comp.sys.amiga.advocacy:28879
From: danaf@bray1a.its.rpi.edu (Frank R. Dana Jr.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: EGGPLANT, IMPLANT, EMPATH, BLAZEPLANT...
Date: 12 Nov 92 06:48:21 GMT
Article-I.D.: rpi.vrq16lj
Reply-To: danaf@rpi.edu
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy, NY.

In article <1992Nov11.165748.23160@gn.ecn.purdue.edu>, jess@gn.ecn.purdue.edu (Jess M Holle) writes:
|> First, even if a monitor and keyboard are not included, a good monitor
|> and keyboard can be added with a total of less than $4000.  From my price
|> list, an Apple 14" Display is $495 and an Apple Extended Keyboard II is
|> $160.  This totals $3882.  Notice that this is a big, high quality monitor
|> and a nice keyboard.  Also, notice that these are Apple peripherals, and,
|> therefore, more expensive than 3rd party equivalents, so a system can be 
|> found for less.

**GIGGLE**

I love MAC users... they consider a 14" monitor BIG!?!?

(Guess it is, compared to that built-in 9" piece-de-crap on the 1-piece MACs.)

|> I believe the price list being quoted on the main unit is educational,
|> BUT those who know how to search the mail order options know that SIMILAR
|> prices can be found there with sufficient effort.  Regardless, this price
|> will be dropping by a lot in Jan. or Feb. when more Quadras come out.  Will
|> the price of the Emplant system be able to drop sufficiently to keep up???

As with all new hardware, both Emplant and the A4000 will drop significanly
--- probably right after the Christmas rush. So, about the time the Q700's
price is dropping, we'll get a double drop.

|> No, the Quadra 700 isn't outdated.  It is on this price list that is only
|> a couple of weeks old.  It is second only to the Quadra 950 in general
|> CPU performance.  It is a vital niche in Apple's product line, and if
|> phased out will be replaced by something similar (and cheaper).

How old the price list is was not the question - it's how old the 700 is.

I agree that it's not totally outdated... but it's in the same situation the
A3000 is. There are better machines out now, it's not #1 anymore. OF COURSE
the price is low... wanna compare to the A3000? That's going for $1400 now...

|> Jess Holle

-- 
/////////////////////////[[[[[[[[[[]]]]]]]]]]\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
(718)             (212)                        (516)             (518)
=======Amiuser============Frank R. Dana, Jr.============Doc Ami=======     
--------My opinions rarely reflect those of any sane person,----------
	   living, dead, or undead... that's gonna CHANGE.
From: bcoleman@hayes.com (Bill Coleman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: specifically comparing NeXT with Mac...
Date: 12 Nov 92 11:55:58 EDT
Organization: Hayes Microcomputer Products, Norcross, GA

In article <1992Nov9.230738.3227@pellns.alleg.edu>, smytonj@pell4l24 (James Smyton) writes:
> 
> I hope not too.  Disregarding personal feelings about the machines, I  
> think their presence in the marketplace has done the other manufacturers a  
> world of good.  Notice that after the NeXT cubes were released, both IBM  
> and Apple gave up on their low end.  No more 000 chips for Mac!  The  
> threat of a machine that could compete and be user friendly was a wake-up  
> call for both companies.  

I think you are completely mis-attributing a market action.

Apple probably planned the abolition of 68000-based machines well in advance
of any action taken by NeXT. IBM as well for their low end.

The truth is, the low end products weren't selling in the kind of volume
needed to be profitable. The PB 100 is an excellent example. Even when
priced just above $1000, it captured only a few percent of powerbook
sales.

The Classic was a hot seller when introduced two years ago at nearly $1700.
But the price slid down to under $1000. At that price point, people were
more apt to spend the $1700 to buy a color Macintosh -- the LC. 

What you are seeing is the steamroller advance of technology -- not a response
to NeXT's marketing actions.

I'm sure Apple (and IBM) are much more concerned about what Microsoft is
doing than NeXT.

-- 
Bill Coleman, AA4LR                ! CIS: 76067,2327    AppleLink: D1958
Principal Software Engineer        ! Packet Radio: AA4LR @ W4QO
Hayes Microcomputer Products, Inc. ! UUCP: uunet!hayes!bcoleman
POB 105203 Atlanta, GA 30348 USA   ! Internet: bcoleman%hayes@uunet.uu.net
Disclaimer: "My employer doesn't pay me to have opinions."
Quote: "The same light shines on vineyards that makes deserts." -Steve Hackett.

Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: raist@rmece02.upr.clu.edu (Ricardo Hernandez)
Subject: Re: EGGPLANT, IMPLANT, EMPATH, BLAZEPLANT...
Organization: UPR-Mayaguez--ASEL Lab
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 06:51:14 GMT

In article <1dsr7oINN4nu@gap.caltech.edu>, keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider) writes:
|> skip@tacky.cs.olemiss.edu (Skip Sauls) writes:
|> 
|> [in response to someone else]
|> 
|> >Ha, the A2000 is on recent price lists!  Are you saying that a machine is
|> >not outdated just because it is on a current price list?  And second only
|> >to the 950, what the hell happened to the 900?  Rather short product life
|> >if you ask me.  How much longer will the 700 be around?  There are Amiga
|> >owners who were upset about the A2000, A3000, and A4000 series when each
|> >was released initially.  Imagine the panic if Commodore began to drop
|> >models as quickly as Apple...
|> 
|> Well, all of the Mac models seem to be pretty compatible...
|> 
|> ie, there hasn't been a major "break" like the new AGA set in quite
|> a while.  Only the things before the Mac+ don't work anymore...
|> 
|> keith

   Well, some things don't run too well under System 7.x.  If this is
because of the programmer's fault, the same with those Amiga apps. that
don't work under AGA.

- Raist
From: ttn@cs.tut.fi (Tero Nieminen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: the NeXT option (Was Re: 7.1 vs. OS/2 and Windows NT)
Date: 7 Nov 92 13:42:07
Organization: Tampere Univ. of Technology, Finland.
Distribution: world
	<1992Nov6.121308.4320@cubetech.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: kivikkorastas.cs.tut.fi
In-reply-to: andrew@cubetech.com's message of Fri, 6 Nov 1992 12:13:08 GMT

In article <1992Nov6.121308.4320@cubetech.com> andrew@cubetech.com (Andrew Loewenstern) writes:

   NO!  Excuse me from using the term thread.  I am used to using threads
   on Mach.

Ok. My mistake..

   Here is a good example of using something like cthread_yield in a
   preemptive multitasking system:

   while(1)
   {
     if(check_something())
       {
	 do something;
       }
     cthread_yield();
   }


   Now, if you remove "chthread_yield()," you will run in a very tight
   loop (if check_something() returns false often) and chew up a lot of
   CPU time, but since the system is preemptive, other tasks will still
   run (but a tight loop like this still chews up a lot of CPU).
   cthread_yield() tells the system "go ahead and let other stuff run
   now" an every turn of the loop instead of looping until it used it's
   time slice (which, on a fast processor, could be several hundred or
   thousands of loops).

   Sleep() on the other hand, makes your process idle for a set amount of
   time.  Yielding just makes you idle until it's your turn to use the
   CPU again.  You don't _have_ to call it, but in situations where you
   don't have to burn the CPU, and don't want to put in a fixed delay,
   this is the way to go.

The same kind of routine seems to be in the Sun LWP library too.

But I still don't quite understand the need for such loops. Shouldn't
there be a way to block the tread until something happens. Maybe it just
has less overhead than blocking, like semaphores or some such, or even
calling thread_speep() (I don't know if there is one) with a very small
parameter.
-- 
         Tero Nieminen                      DANGER!
         ttn@cs.tut.fi                   Computer Bytes!
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu (Garance A. Drosehn)
Subject: Re: specifically comparing NeXT with Mac...
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 05:13:09 GMT

lsr@taligent.com (Larry Rosenstein) writes:
> In article <1992Nov5.120538.2602@cubetech.com>, andrew@cubetech.com wrote:
> > Interface Builder is different.  When you "draw" your interface, you
> > are really creating the actual objects that will be instantiated when
> 
> Exactly what happens when you use Apple's ViewEdit.  The view objects are
> saved in a resource and read in at runtime.  The main difference is that
> Interface Builder has more support for defining interactions between
> objects than ViewEdit does.
> 
> > NeXT objects do most of the drudge work for you when writing an an
> > app.  The AppKit provides classes - most notably Window and View -
> 
> The same is true of MacApp.  Although I think MacApp is narrower
> and deeper (it has more support for basic things like Undo and
> documents) while NeXT's kits are broader and shallower.  MacApp
> also takes the tedium out of writing Mac applications.

First, I'd like to say that Larry has done a lot of neat stuff with OOP on  
the Mac (hmm, unless I'm getting my names mixed up).  Quite impressive  
stuff.

In any case, I'd argue that IB is more successful in taking the tedium out  
of NeXT programming, because there is less of a start-up cost than there is  
with MacApp.  I've certainly been more successful dabbling with programming  
on my NeXT than on my Mac, even though I've spent more time reading up on  
MacApp and C++ than I have doing anything on the NeXT.

Since I can't claim to be "up to speed" on either development environment, I  
don't know if that advantage holds true for people once they become really  
experienced with the tools.  For me, IB has been the winner.  I recognize  
that other people may very well (and very honestly) have the opposite  
preference.

--
Garance Alistair Drosehn     =     gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu
ITS Systems Programmer            (handles NeXT-type mail)
Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute;           Troy NY    USA
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Macintosh advocacy (really!)
From: feijai@endor.byu.edu (Sean Luke)
Date: 9 Nov 92 13:22:55 -0700
Reply-To: sean@digaudio.byu.edu

In article <4fl1rfh@rpi.edu>  writes:

[regarding Apple's research into scroll bars]

>Apples reseach contradicts you. Mere assertion won't chagne that.
>Amiga scroll bars may be better overall (I wouldn't know), however.


Since Apple does non-expanding scroll bars, that Apple would find the  
expanding type "non-intuitive" is not what I'd call "good science" :-)

IMHO, expanding scroll bars make more sense.  Apple should use them.


--

Sean Luke
Brigham Young University                   MILK:  It Comes From Cows
sean@digaudio.byu.edu  
NeXTmail and nifty Mac stuff welcome
From: bcoleman@hayes.com (Bill Coleman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Trepidations of a stoned Mac user
Date: 12 Nov 92 17:56:58 EDT
Organization: Hayes Microcomputer Products, Norcross, GA

In article <1992Nov7.133010.44504@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu>, model03@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu (John Deke) writes:
> In article <jna15bh@rpi.edu>, johnsd2@jec322.its.rpi.edu (Daniel Norman Johnson) writes:
>> |> Intel processors. System 7.x is made for Motorola 68000 or higher processors
>> |> and can't be used with older Motorola processors like the 6502.
>> 
>> That's true. However, nobody is claiming the 68000 machines and
>> the 6502 machines to be compatible.
> 
> Minor point: wasn't the 6502 by Western Design, not Motorola? Or did Western
> Design just manufacture a Motorola chip? 

Nope. MOS Technology. (Not to be confused with MOSTEK)

I think Rockwell eventually bought them out.

Now the 65816 (a pseudo-16 bit CPU decendant of the 6502) and the 65C02
were done by Western Design.

Actually, most of the designers of the chips in the 65xx family have
been the same people. Many of them worked on the original Motorola 6800.

-- 
Bill Coleman, AA4LR                ! CIS: 76067,2327    AppleLink: D1958
Principal Software Engineer        ! Packet Radio: AA4LR @ W4QO
Hayes Microcomputer Products, Inc. ! UUCP: uunet!hayes!bcoleman
POB 105203 Atlanta, GA 30348 USA   ! Internet: bcoleman%hayes@uunet.uu.net
Disclaimer: "My employer doesn't pay me to have opinions."
Quote: "The same light shines on vineyards that makes deserts." -Steve Hackett.
From: ttn@cs.tut.fi (Tero Nieminen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Strange needs (who might need an 040)
Date: 11 Nov 92 06:31:46
Organization: Tampere Univ. of Technology, Finland.
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: kivikkorastas.cs.tut.fi
In-reply-to: feijai@endor.byu.edu's message of 10 Nov 92 03:09:25 GMT

In article <1992Nov10.100926.1132@yvax.byu.edu> feijai@endor.byu.edu (Sean Luke) writes:

   Your logic is flawed.  Someone who needs an '040 to do his work, cannot do  
   his work unless he has an '040.  That's what "needs" means.  "Requires."

Actually I find it very hard to believe that there would be any
meaningful amount of people needing an 040 processor to complete
something (or any other particular cpu for that matter), it's not that
special chip. I'm not saying it is impossible, but the number of those
is very limited.

I'd much rather believe if someone needed for example a Mac or a NeXT
for some work to be done--if the target was one of those machines. In
which case it makes no sense to compare different platforms.

   Your argument is a variation of "But I don't need that power."  I agree.   
   The NeXT is for high-end stuff.  If you don't need a NeXT, don't buy one.   
   (I have an SE).

And if you need real power, you are selecting from the wrong machines in
the first place.

Still much in the same way that Mac users used to, buying a NeXT is a
subjective decision. It's not a cold fact. Mac users just seem to have
forgotten what it was like in those early years, and now bitch NeTX
byers all they can with exactly the same kind of arguments PC users used
to bitch Mac users.
-- 
         Tero Nieminen                      DANGER!
         ttn@cs.tut.fi                   Computer Bytes!
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: torrie@cs.stanford.edu (Evan Torrie)
Subject: Re: The future of Apple
Originator: torrie@Xenon.Stanford.EDU
Organization: CS Department, Stanford University, California, USA
Date: 13 Nov 92 01:55:58 GMT

wilcoxt@cuug.ab.ca (Terrance Wilcox 260-8100) writes:

>Who wants a Powerbook when Newton is the flagship of Apple?

  If you think that Newton is going to do everything that a Powerbook
can do, then you obviously don't understand what Newton is.

-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Evan Torrie.  Stanford University, Class of 199?       torrie@cs.stanford.edu 
Embrace rationalism, reject superstition.           Break away from the past.
"...there is only one thing worse than having marketing people on a project,
 and that is having no marketing people on a project."  - Larry Tesler.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: ewright@convex.com (Edward V. Wright)
Subject: Re: NeXT OS, TOO SLOW TO $#@#$, etc.
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 23:47:20 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Engineering, CONVEX Computer Corp., Richardson, Tx., USA
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

In <1992Nov10.165401.23447@leland.Stanford.EDU> spagiola@frinext.stanford.edu (Stefano Pagiola) writes:


>The price of a lot of Unix software is high.  That's not true of a  
>lot of NeXT software.  WriteNow is $89 edu, 

A program developed by another company owned by Steve Jobs.  Not
surprising that the NeXT version is so cheap.

>or $49 for a version without manuals.  Draw (a very nice drawing 
>package) is $159/$89.   WordPerfect is $150.  Improv, Lotus' new 
>spreadsheet, is $179.  

You mean "Lotus's spreadsheet, which NeXT paid Lotus to develop."

>Many vendors have very attractive edu prices.   

And many people do not qualify for edu prices.

In fact, (brace yourself, this may come as a shock to you) 
*most* people do not.

>Pride of place goes to Diagram! (an excellent diagram package and  
>general drawing app) that sells for $25 to students.  

Which doesn't help the >95% of the world who aren't students 
one bit.

I don't know why it should surprise you that NeXT software is
tends to be expensive.  It costs roughly the same amount to
develop and market a program for the Mac, the NeXT, or the PC. 
(Yes, I know someone will say that NeXTstep makes it possible
to develop software for 1% the cost, but that is pure BS.) But
the number of customers is smaller because Steve Jobs doesn't
believe that anyone who can't afford the latest, high-end hardware
deserves to have a NeXT.  Unless you can charge each customer a 
fairly hefty price (or unless NeXT is underwriting your development 
cost), you can't afford to develop for the NeXT.  It's simple
economics.