From: idfriedm@marconi.uwaterloo.ca (id friedman)
Subject: Re: zionism in crisis
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 02:56:46 GMT

In article <74349@cup.portal.com> L-Bueno@cup.portal.com (Louis Alberto Bueno) writes:
>idfriedm@marconi.uwaterloo.ca (id friedman) writes:
>>In article <74244@cup.portal.com> L-Bueno@cup.portal.com (Louis Alberto Bueno) writes:
>>>kgivon@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (karen lee givon) writes:
>>>>"wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com> writes:
>[...]
>>>>>For instance, despite their ethnic and national differences,
>>>>>Irish Catholics, Italian Catholics, and German Catholics can find
>>>>>a common ground in their religious symbols.
>>>>
>>>>Ethiopian Jews, American Jews, and Yemenite Jews find a common ground in
>>>>their religious symbols.  What'our point?  
>>>
>>>       From what I have read of Ethiopian Jews in Israel, only a small
>>>number have been allowed to immigrate into Israel, while Russian Jews have
>>
>>  Israel has spent many resources to bring back Ethiopians by the thusands
>>  in various operations throughout the last few years. All Ethiopian Jews
>>  can immigrate if they can get out of Ethiopia.
>
>	I should have said since the airlift, sorry! :-)
>
>	I've just read an interesting article in the N.Y. Times that
>seems to shed a little more light on this topic.  When I have a chance,
>I'll copy it and post it for everyone's perusal.
>
    Post the date and I'll try to get a hold of it.

>[...]
>>>>>Combining ethnocentrism with religion with nationalism strikes me
>>>>>as a volatile proposition. All three factors can be forces for
>>>>>great divisiveness in the world, separately and most assuredly in
>>>>>combination. Many of Israel's worsening problems are the product
>>>>>of its ideological presuppositions, concepts which perhaps need
>>>>>to be rationally examined more than emotionally defended in a
>>>>>knee-jerk fashion.
>>>>
>>>>Wayne, what do you want from us?  Do you want us to totally change all
>>>>aspects of Judaism so that more people will want to convert?
>>>>Christianity did this, didn't it?   Have you noticed that Judaism is the
>>>>oldest monotheistic religion?  Have you noticed that we have survived
>>>>attrocities that no other group has been subjected to?  We must be doing
>>>>something right, we're still here.  
>>>
>>>       I don't know what Wayne wants from what you define as "us," other
>>>than what he's asked for (rational examination of Israel's ideological
>>>presuppositions), but I know what I want; a non-emotional explanation of
>>>the ongoing brutalization of a non-Jewish people by a people who themselves
>>>were once brutalized.  Atrocities by any other name are still atrocities.
>>>
>>  Once you really understand the threat whch Israel faces from countries
>>  around it who want to annihilate it, you'll understand its policies
>>  better ( Doesn't seem that you, or I, agree with all of them).
>
>	You know, this brings another issue to mind here.
>
>	The United States has long been an ally and benefactor to Israel.
>Indeed, I am of the opinion that if Israel faced a threat even remotely
>similar to the one Kuwait endured prior to the Persian Gulf war, the
>U.S. would be among the first to ensure Israel's defenses, as well as
>help to extend any required offensive capabilities.
 
   First of all, there is no need to hypothesize. To mention only the
   most recent war between Israel and Egypt and Syria ( 1973 ) Israel
   faced an assault consisting of considerable strength. However, the 
   U.S did airlift aid, but Israel had no need for U.S armed forces.

   The argument is that of all the U.S allies since WWII Israel is the 
    one that:

  (1) Provided the U.S with the most info. in the Middle east
  (2) Provided the U.S with actual Migs and Soviet tanks, state of
      the art, at the height of the Cold War.
  (3) Did not request U.S blood to defend its borders.
  (4) Warned the U.S about the danger of Iraq long before the crisis.

>
>	Therefore, how does subjecting its Palestinian minority to all
>of the various dehumanizing factors in the occupied territories ensure
>its defense against those that would wish to "push the Jews into the
>sea?"
>
   First of all, I don't agree with all of the Israeli policies. But the
   sheer geography of the situation indicates that there is a significant
   military threat from giving up control of much of the territories.
   
   Also, the army must quell violent resistance. Unfortunately, this can
   only be done with violence. ( i.e. When violence isn't used, as in the
   L.A Riots for the first days, more people might die).

   A nutshell summary.


>>Ishay
>
>Regards,
>
>--Louis

Ish
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:26392 soc.culture.greek:12666 soc.culture.europe:11503 soc.history:11052