From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Subject: Re: islam & ethnicity
Organization: Brown University Department of Computer Science
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1993 03:28:55 GMT

wmuhanna@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Waleed A Muhanna) writes:
# dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) writes:

##However, I am
##seriously deadlocked with you about the issue of Islam being transfered by
##the father. I asked two Muslem guys here - one from India and one from
##Turkey (both graduate students) - and they disagree with you; in their
##opinion, the son of a Moslem father is considered a Moslem, and that
##is that.

#The son of a Muslim father is presumed to be a Muslim, until proven
#otherwise.   

And in how many cases is it "proven otherwise"? And, if bloodlines
have no relation to Islam, why not make it equal? Why not a) presume
*everyboy* is a Moslem till proven otherwise, or b) *everybody* is
a non-Moslem untill he is proven to be one!?

While deleting my question, you have nontheless answered it: in order
to be considered a Moslem, someone who does not have a Moslem father
has to convert. That is that. End of argument.

#If Rushdie came out and openly declared that he is an atheist or an
#agnostic, if he said that he doesn't consider praying five times a day
#a duty on every Muslim, he would be considered a non-Muslim.   

By who? By all Moslems? 

#On the
#other hand, if Danny Keren came out and openly declared he is an atheist 
#or an agnostic, he would still be considered a Jew, because his mother 
#is Jewish.  

Be considered a Jew by who? A Jew in what sense? Is there a notion of
a "secular Moslem" or not? If so, how many of Moslems are "secular"?

#So, to suggest that Rushdie is "considered" Muslim just 
#because his father happens to be a Muslim, is totally false.  He is 
#presumed to be a Muslim, because no one has shown that he has rejected 
#the Islamic faith.  Capich?

Capich! Wasn't he sentenced to death *becasue* he is a *considered to
be a Moslem* (which makes his crime worse)? Please answer this question,
it is important to me.

##I find
##your definition strange. For instance, there are many estimates to the
##numbers of Moslems in the world. Do these estimates bring into account
##who "practices Islam" and who doesn't?

#Probably not.  There are many estimates for the number of Christians in
#the world.  Do these estimates take into account who practices Christianity
#and who doesn't?  Probably not.  A child of a Christian is presumed to
#be Christian, until this is shown not to be true.

Again: when is it shown to be non-true? In how many cases? This seems
rather irrelevant to me.

##And now, for my mention of the persecution of Jews by Moslem societies
##in the past.

#It had nothing to do with the issue at hand.  It was not called for.
#It seemed like an attempt to shift the discussion to a different
#area.

##The reason I bring this (as well as persecution of Jews
##by the Christian Church) is that it is *strongly related* to the
##attitude of Jews (especially in the past) to these religions. 

#Past injustices cannot excuse present ones.  

For the record, I was not talking about present ones only, but about
the quotes from Maimonides that our "good Rabbi" posted. Since his
family was deported, his good friend executed, and he nearly was
executed too - all for being Jews - his view on other religions, which
were trying to spiritualy and physically destroy Judaism, was affected.

#Today, Zionism, in the name 
#of world Jewry and Judaism, is denying the Palestinians people (both Muslims 
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
#and Christians) their inalienable rights in their own homeland.

Hogwash. What have Judaism and world Jewry have to do with this? I am
afraid the Nazi propaganda posted by our "Good rabbi" is sneaking
through. To Judge on Judaism from its interpretation by some political
currents is an evil thing. I suggest that you think twice before you
make such declarations. They can be applied to Islam too, BTW, and it
won't be considered fair, now won't it?

#Let's recall it here:

I am sorry, but it is not necessary to post this again and again. Posters
are becoming hundreds of lines long and difficult to read.

##yes, I have a certain political agenda which I
##pursue, and I think you are, to some extent, familiar with it. I am
##not, though, a political activist, so I do the little I can do within
##my limitations.

#Are you prepared to acknowledge and condemn present injustices that are done 
#in the name of world Jewry and Judaism with same vigor that you use when the 
#victims happen to be Jews?  I certainly hope you'd be.

This is an insulting question, because of the mention of "Judaism and
world Jewry". Nontheless I will answer it - yes, Israel has done
some thing that should be condemmned; yes, there are Jews who do
things that should be condemmned, especially when they base them on
a mis-interpreted version of the Jewish religion. 

Ofcourse, if Israel had not been forced into the corner by its
neighbours, who have sought (and some are still trying) to "annihilate",
"exterminate", and "uproot" it, things would be much better off. I
hope that you are aware that Israel is not the only one to blame
for mideast tragedies. 


-Danny Keren.