HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: solman@athena.mit.edu (Jason W Solinsky)
Subject: Re: Why can't the liberals just admit that public education
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 18:59:56 GMT

In article <20027@mindlink.bc.ca>, Crawford_Kilian@mindlink.bc.ca (Crawford Kilian) writes:
|> Herman Rubin concludes a recent posting in this tedious thread by observing:
|> 
|> Most of those who adopt the current "liberal" position believe that they have
|> the right to impose their morality on us, just as most of those who adopt the
|> current "conservative" position, or the current "Perotist" position.  So I
|> will conclude with a quote, source unknown:
|> 
|>         The greatest immorality of all is to force one's morality on another.
|> 
|> Herman, you've been spending too much time online instead of upholding high
|> standards among your stats students. Your quote tells us we're all a bunch of
|> Bad People because we impose our morality on drug peddlers, murderers, wife
|> beaters, inside traders and other people whose values we don't agree with.
|> 
|> And what's this all got to with education?

Because our schools are being used as a vehicle for imposing that morality
instead of an instrument of learning as we are told when our tax money is
sent to them. If, without the loss of equal economic support, we could choose
where our children are sent, then such "morality" education would be fine.
But as things stand, the tax system prevents parents from choosing where their
children go. Parents that want to keep their children away from any mention of
sex have their children given condoms in school, creationists are forced to
send their children to schools that teach evolution, parents that think the use
of drugs is perfectly acceptable have their children automatically taught that
drugs are bad without even being exposed to the scientific evidence so they
can make up their minds, parents who feel that homosexuality is a sin, have
their children taught otherwise. What gives the majority the right to force
these views on the minority by using the SCHOOLS?

Jason W. Solinsky
Newsgroups: misc.education
From: petit@augsburg.edu (Noel J. Petit)
Subject: Info Req: why leave academic profession
Followup-To: misc.education
Organization: Augsburg College
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 21:55:24 GMT


I have just begun an interview-based project to investigate why faculty
members choose to leave the academic profession.  I am interested in
faculty from all types of post-secondary institutions (i.e., community
colleges, liberal arts colleges, comprehensive and/or research
universities).  (I am not interested in individuals who have left "for
cause".) 

If you know of individuals who have chosen to leave or have seriously
considered leaving academe, or if you are in this situation, I would like
to hear from you.  Confidentiality assured.  I anticipate that my findings
will appear in the usual scholarly places, and (I hope) will ultimately
appear in book form.

littlefi@augsburg.edu     
V.M. Littlefield, Ph.D.
Psychology Department
Augsburg College
731 21st Avenue South
Minneapolis, MN 55454  

Noel J. Petit
Associate Professor of Computer Science
Augsburg College, Minneapolis, MN 
(petit@augsburg.edu) 612-330-1061

Newsgroups: misc.education,misc.kids,sci.edu
From: mbfeld@unix.amherst.edu (A waste of bandwidth originating)
Subject: Re: Class rankings, etc (was: Branding kids, IQ tests, smart vs dumb (Was: Re: Seminar Program)
Followup-To: misc.education,misc.kids,sci.edu
Organization: an unknown point
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL7]
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 21:56:58 GMT

Sounds like the administrators enjoyed playing with numbers more than they
enjoy educating kids.

Newsgroups: misc.education,misc.kids,sci.edu
From: billc@Apple.COM (Bill Cockayne)
Newsgroups: misc.education,misc.kids,sci.edu
Subject: Re: Branding kids, IQ tests, smart vs dumb
Date: 21 Jan 93 23:17:04 GMT
Followup-To: misc.education
Organization: Apple Computer Inc, Cupertino, CA

I don't know that everyone here is claiming that IQs and SATs reflect how
smart a person is. In my responses I have stated that SATs are worthless
indicators and that standardized tests are questionable as to what they test.

What most people here are using the numbers they quote for are mainly to try
and quantify the problem that does exist in the American school system. We all
know there is a problem, and the test scores only seem to indicate that we
are right. By saying that SAT scores have gone down, we can (sorta) say that
some quantifiable piece of the studnts' knowledge is also going down compared
to previous testing.

People in general are hung up with comparing and testing themselves in all 
aspects of life. Test scores are a concrete way to some people to prove that
they are "useful" and "smart."

bill cockayne
billc@apple.com

disclaimer - all words ar emy own
From: newburgheath@bvc.edu
Newsgroups: misc.education
Subject: teaching on the reservation--chat
Date: 21 Jan 93 16:43:47 CST
Organization: Buena Vista College, Storm Lake, IA

HI!  

I was just curious...have any of you who post in this group ever taught on 
an indian reservation?  I did a month of teacher aiding last January on the Rosebud 
Reservation in Mission, SD, at the public high school in senior English.  I absolutely loved 
working with the seniors I had; they have so much talent and life in them.  
Unfortunately, there are numerous teachers that give up because of 
behavior problems, letting gifted students slip by unnoticed.  I keep in 
touch with a few of my students, exchanging poetry and letters.  Although 
my practice teaching was done as part of a requirement for the education 
program here, I chose to go out there after spending spring break out on 
the Rosebud.  I continue to go back--once for graduation of my students, 
and a twice again for spring break.  I love the people; I loved teacher 
aiding (even creating and teaching a few lessons on my own without the 
teacher in the room).  However, I am not sure if I would be suitable to 
teach there full time.  I have heard so many teachers say how draining it 
is on the reservation, how little social life one has...I sometimes wonder 
if I would end up feeling like that.  (Those teachers are white, not raised 
on the reservation--like myself.)

Could anyone share any experiences they had working on reservations or 
similar locations?  I will be doing my student teaching this coming fall as 
a 5th year senior, and then....job hunt!  Any suggestions of where to look?

Thanks a million!
Heather
From: mbfeld@unix.amherst.edu (A waste of bandwidth originating)
Newsgroups: misc.education
Subject: Re: Studying Suggestions
Date: 28 Jan 93 22:01:06 GMT
Organization: an unknown point
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL7]


Paul Daunno (pdaunno@Ingres.COM) wrote:
: Hi,
: 
: I just started taking a course last night called "The Rise of Europe".
: I have never been much of a history buff and have struggled in the past
: with these types of courses.  The texts are filled with facts, etc. and
: the class lectures are too.  I'd like some ideas as to how to learn all
: of this information.  How much detail is really neccessary in terms of
: exams?
: 
: Any and all ideas, tips, tricks, whatever is GREATLY appreciated.
: 
: Paul Daunno
: Ingres, An ASK Group 

Well, one idea that might work is to make a little mental movie.  Say you are
learning that Napoleon came to power in 18-whatever (I forgot myself :-) ).
Do a cinematic fade-in with "1806 A.D." in white letters at the bottom of the
screen.  Onscreen you see Napoleon being crowned.

Association-- attaching the information to be learned to information you know,
e.g. your mental pictures-- usually works well.

Marlon
Newsgroups: misc.education,misc.kids,sci.edu
From: cedman@princeton.edu (Carl Edman)
Subject: Re: Branding kids, IQ tests, smart vs dumb (Was: Re: Seminar Program)
To: ann@cco.caltech.edu (Ann Terese Heil)
Originator: news@nimaster
Organization: Princeton University
	<2688@rd1632.Dayton.NCR.COM> <1k3ra9INN8l3@gap.caltech.edu>
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 17:43:49 GMT

In article <1k3ra9INN8l3@gap.caltech.edu> ann@cco.caltech.edu (Ann Terese Heil) writes:
   MIT did some recent studies in which they looked at SATs versus 
   performance once admitted (via grade point average, I believe).
   They found that SAT scores underpredicted the performance of female
   students relative to male students.  That is, for a group of students 
   having close SAT scores, the females in the group attained higher 
   grades than the male students.   I believe they changed their admissions
   policies according, to give less weight to SAT scores.

That is an interesting fact.  Did this study control for choice of
major ? Otherwise the tendency of women to choose majors which
generally are considered less scientifically rigorous and
consequentially are often graded less strictly could explain the
discrepancy without any bias in the SATs.  Or possibly there is just a
bias in favor of women in grading ?

        Carl Edman
--
"Before we pronounce a man educated, we must ask:  'Could he 
re-found his civilization?'"               - Kevin van Doren
From: hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin)
Newsgroups: misc.education
Subject: Re: Magnet schools
Date: 26 Jan 93 21:54:04 GMT
Article-I.D.: mentor.C1HE65.24
Organization: Purdue University Statistics Department

In article <00728017449@elgamy.jpunix.com> elg@elgamy.jpunix.com (Eric Lee Green) writes:
>From article <1993Jan23.174258.12271@athena.mit.edu>, by solman@athena.mit.edu (Jason W Solinsky):
>> In article <00727506934@elgamy.jpunix.com>, elg@elgamy.jpunix.com (Eric Lee Green) writes:
>> |> Actually, teachers tend to teach to the level of the MOST capable child in
>> |> the class. There's plenty of research confirming this, and looking at my

>> I would like a reference on this research. What you have posted above is
>> entirely false with only a relatively small number of exceptions. >90% of a
>> teacher's time is wasted for the smarter students.

			....................

>The point being that it is *NOT* necessary to short-change the swifter
>students in order to meet the needs of the slower students. It's just
>easier that way, because it makes the classroom look more like what laymen
>think of as a classroom. Some times, alas, my classroom looks more like a
>three-ring circus...

The bright students are being thoroughly short-changed.  If we had an
educational system which used a remotely intelligent organization of 
the material to prevent spinning wheels, we could teach all of the
present material now in K-12 to those able to get a sound high school
diplomat before the 8th grade, and proceed accordingly.  Those who have
the ability should be encouraged to do "advanced" work, and not to have
to repeat it when they catch up to that grade.

Even the "normals" are being short-changed.  Different children should
even progress at different speeds in different subjects, and if we 
abandoned the present spiral method of time-wasting and introducing
confusion, much could be accomplished. 
-- 
Herman Rubin, Dept. of Statistics, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette IN47907-1399
Phone: (317)494-6054
hrubin@snap.stat.purdue.edu (Internet, bitnet)  
{purdue,pur-ee}!snap.stat!hrubin(UUCP)
Newsgroups: misc.education,misc.kids,sci.edu
From: elise@ticipa.pac.sc.ti.com (Elise Wade)
Subject: Re: Branding kids, IQ tests, smart vs dumb
Organization: Texas Instruments
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 18:59:17 GMT

In article <1993Jan21.092151.24113W@lumina.edb.tih.no> ketil@edb.tih.no writes:
>In article <1993Jan20.215406.18366@clpd.kodak.com>, staffan@ca.serum.kodak.com 
>(Kenneth Staffan (x37507)) presents some really readworthy thoughts.
>Thanks a lot, Kenneth, I think the discussion needed that input!
>
>Following this discussion from outside the USA (from Norway, that is), it
>just looks SOOO "American". OK, flame me, but that is my honest opinion -
>and I am certainly not alone. It sounds like a major fraction of Americans
>believe that importan human qualities can be represented by a few simple
>numbers.
>
[...]
>
>European cultures tend to be much more aware of other aspects than the
>pure numeric IQ/SAT figure. Sure, this is a very personal opinion, but
>it is supported by the fact that eg. in Norway, the psychologist or 
>whoever administers the IQ test - in the rare cases when it is used -
>won't tell you the result; it is treated as confidential. 

(low grade flame thrower on)

My experience with European cultures (though I've no experience with
Norway specifically) suggests that Europeans are far more likely
to judge a child by what kind of folks the parents are -- a real
class prejudice often strongly asserts itself.  Maybe you ignore
IQ because you've already decided that a child is going to be
as successful or as unsuccessful as the parents?

The problem here is mostly snobery.  I just find that Americans
express it differntly than Europeans.  Its a culture difference
& I can't see how the European "way" has any advantage myself.


(flames off)

Elise.
Xref: sparky misc.education:6121 misc.kids:33327 sci.edu:1475
From: chenowet@rd1632.Dayton.NCR.COM (Steve Chenoweth)
Newsgroups: misc.education,misc.kids,sci.edu
Subject: Re: Branding kids, IQ tests, smart vs dumb (Was: Re: Seminar Program)
Date: 25 Jan 93 13:30:33 GMT
Reply-To: chenowet@rd1632.Dayton.NCR.com (Steve Chenoweth)
Distribution: world
Organization: NCR Technology & Development, Dayton, Ohio

In article <1jfeh6INNm2k@mojo.eng.umd.edu> clin@eng.umd.edu (Charles Lin) writes:
>
>In article <1993Jan18.163436.12313@news.cs.indiana.edu>, "Peter Beckman" <beckman@cs.indiana.edu> writes:
>
>    I don't know how well these scores correlate with performance except
>in a crude sort of way (i.e., if you start using blocks of 200 pts to separate
>people).  ...
>
>    I once had an opportunity to look at some scores of students with
>SATs and GPAs.   There seems to be *some* correspondence, but it seemed
>like everyone was in the same area of scores (say 600's low 700's in math,
>and mid 500's in verbal) and the grades seemed to vary a bit.   Some people
>with very high SAT scores seemed to do well, others not as well. ...

In the early 1960's I worked in a university admissions office.  We did studies
on the SAT back then, in an effort to create a formula incorporating that and
class rank or GPA.  From what I can recall, I'd agree with Beckman's view of
the predictive value of the tests.  There was a general trend, but a very, very
wide variance.  The correlation wasn't anything to write home about.  It was
higher for the verbal SAT score, but then this was a liberal arts school.

Does anyone have better information from more recent studies (hopefully not
funded by the SAT people...)?  One would hope universities have continued to
do such research up to the present time.



-- 
Steve.Chenoweth@Dayton.NCR.com
Newsgroups: misc.education
From: dal3@cbnewsg.cb.att.com (dale.e.parson)
Subject: Re: Gre scores
Organization: AT&T
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 16:27:07 GMT

In article <C1J7sB.E3q@cs.columbia.edu> bhat@cs.columbia.edu (Dinkar Bhat) writes:
>In article <CEDMAN.93Jan26163825@capitalist.princeton.edu> cedman@princeton.edu (Carl Edman) writes:
>>In article <1k2davINN8m3@MINERVA.CIS.YALE.EDU> owen-christopher@yale.edu (Christopher Owen) writes:
>>   In article <1993Jan25.220503.25309@Virginia.EDU> mjr4u@Virginia.EDU (Matthew Jerome Rush) writes:
>>   >How important is your analytical score?  I did pretty average
>>   >on the first two, but got a 690 on what I like to call the
>>   >"Crossword Puzzle Book" section.  Did that really help me get
>>   >into a good English program?
>>
>>   This really depends.  Some programs openly say that they don't consider the
>>   analytical score.  Most psychology programs for instance claim that they
>>   don't even look at it (unlikely but that is what they say).  My guess is
>>   that a good analytical score will of course help in english programs, but
>>   not all that much.
>>
>I consider the analytical part as a ridiculous. If you have a bag of tricks
>you will be fine. The analytical part has the highest degree of error compared
>to the other two. It may be more suitable to somebody who wants to be in
>business?
>

I took the GRE when the analytical part was pretty new--there was no
normalization of scores, it was called 'experimental'--and I hadn't
yet programmed in PROLOG. It sounds like the test hasn't changed, so I'd
say anybody that has written some fairly trivial PROLOG programs
ought to do just fine. Play with PROLOG for a month or two, so you get
the habit (habits are fast, deliberation is slow) of thinking like a
PROLOG interpreter, and have a great time.

Does this fact make the test itself trivial? Well, I think all timed
tests are trivial, so for me the answer is no, the test is already
trivial. As for the connection of PROLOG to logic/predicate calculus,
I think it's fine to have something like formal logic in these 
asinine tests, probably even appropriate, but there's more to analytical
thinking than chugging through well-formed-formulae with all the
intelligence of an IBM PC. But then I'm not a test vendor.


Dale Parson, Bell Labs, dale@mhcnet.att.com

 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
|    "These words are too solid, they don't move fast enough           |
|     to catch the blur in the brain that flies by, and is gone..."    |
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
|     Suzanne Vega                                                     |
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroups: misc.education,misc.kids,sci.edu
From: cedman@princeton.edu (Carl Edman)
Subject: Re: Branding kids, IQ tests, smart vs dumb (Was: Re: Seminar Program)
To: ren@hopper.ACS.Virginia.EDU (Karen Prestemon)
Originator: news@nimaster
Organization: Princeton University
	<1993Jan18.163436.12313@news.cs.indiana.edu>
	<C15HG3.8G0@quake.sylmar.ca.us>
	<1993Jan23.084953.15061@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1993 19:19:23 GMT

In article <1993Jan23.084953.15061@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> ren@hopper.ACS.Virginia.EDU (Karen Prestemon) writes:
   The IQ test was developed as a placement test, and can't adequately
   measure intelligence.  Nothing can, really, which is why its is so
   "imprecise."  Basically, it tests knwoledge of white culture in
   America, which is more or less what the SAT does on the verbal half
   of the exam.

Forgive me for picking only on this single point, but that statement
does not seem to agree either with my experience or with observed fact
for that matter.

For the former, I personally had not spent more than a few weeks in
north america in my entire life when I took the SATs. This did not
appear to me to be an obstacle to getting a verbal score in the top
few percentiles.

For the latter, if indeed the verbal part of the SAT is culturally
biased against eg. minorities and the quantitative part is not or at
least less so (as you seem to be implying - correct me if I'm wrong),
how do you explain the fact that the gap between average white and
black SAT score is larger in the quantitative part than in the verbal
part ?

        Carl Edman
--
"Before we pronounce a man educated, we must ask:  'Could he 
re-found his civilization?'"               - Kevin van Doren
From: elg@elgamy.jpunix.com (Eric Lee Green)
Date: 21 Jan 93 22:10:19 CDT
Newsgroups: misc.education
Subject: Re: Challenged Kid needs Help - What to do?
Distribution: world
Organization: Eric's Amiga 2000 @ Home

From article <1993Jan18.211111.10062@cbfsb.cb.att.com>, by osan@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (Mr. X):
> In article <1993Jan14.154637.904@b23a.b23a.ingr.com> alfa@b23a.b23a.ingr.com (Laura Walker) writes:
>>
>>Jessica attends a parochial Catholic school; one that adheres to traditional
>>teaching methods.
>
>       My condolences to the poor child.
>
>>The student-teacher ratio in her class is 30:1 and is
>>taught by a lay teacher (not a clergy person).
>
>       30:1??!  In a PRIVATE school.  I'd get that child the hell out of

30:1 is typical for a parochial Catholic school. Catholic schools are
typically run on very "traditional" grounds, on very low budgets (less than
half of the per-pupil expenditures of the public schools).

The flip side is that Catholic schools produce students who perform much
better than public school students... for whatever reason.

I'm afraid that I run my own classroom a lot like those Catholic school
classrooms that I attended as a youth, except with a bit more flexibility
since I have 2 grade levels (3rd and 4th).

>       I can only imagine what could be possible for us if all schools were
>       like Montessori or Summerhill.  No, they are not perfect, but they are
>       so vastly superior... if only this were available to the great body

"So vastly superior"... by what measures? I say this because one entire
wing of the school I teach at is Montessori (not MY wing, obviously -- I
teach in the Behavior Intervention Center wing, the exact opposite of
Montessori :-). So I've had first-hand observation of Montessori in action.
Those kids don't seem to be learning any more or less than what I learned
when I was in school, and all the test scores we have seem to say the same:
that it's no more or less effective than "standard" education at
transmitting any measurable sort of knowledge. Now, Montessori advocates
say there are other non-measurable advantages. Possibly so. But "vastly
superior", well....

--
 Eric Lee Green  elg@elgamy.jpunix.com   Dodson Elementary
 (713) 664-6446                             Houston, TX
                "Kids are kids, no matter what"
Xref: sparky misc.education:6146 misc.kids:33489 sci.edu:1492
From: ann@cco.caltech.edu (Ann Terese Heil)
Newsgroups: misc.education,misc.kids,sci.edu
Subject: Re: Branding kids, IQ tests, smart vs dumb (Was: Re: Seminar Program)
Date: 26 Jan 1993 17:10:33 GMT
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: alumni.caltech.edu

 
>In the early 1960's I worked in a university admissions office.  We did studies
>on the SAT back then, in an effort to create a formula incorporating that and
>class rank or GPA.  From what I can recall, I'd agree with Beckman's view of
>the predictive value of the tests.  There was a general trend, but a very, very
>wide variance.  The correlation wasn't anything to write home about.  It was
>higher for the verbal SAT score, but then this was a liberal arts school.
>
>Does anyone have better information from more recent studies (hopefully not
>funded by the SAT people...)?  One would hope universities have continued to
>do such research up to the present time.
 
MIT did some recent studies in which they looked at SATs versus 
performance once admitted (via grade point average, I believe).
They found that SAT scores underpredicted the performance of female
students relative to male students.  That is, for a group of students 
having close SAT scores, the females in the group attained higher 
grades than the male students.   I believe they changed their admissions
policies according, to give less weight to SAT scores.
 
ann

(My apologies for the topic drift.)

Newsgroups: misc.education,misc.kids,sci.edu