From: achenbac@epcot.spdc.ti.com (Jeff Achenbach)
Subject: Re: Self Regulating Populations
Organization: TI Semiconductor Process and Design Center
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 14:00:10 GMT

In article <BtxtAw.B6K@wpg.com> russ@wpg.com (Russell Lawrence) writes:
>
>Dan Sorenson writes:
>ds> Thunder and gunshots sound entirely different.  Trust me on this, 
>ds> I still have a reflex that puts me on the ground whenever I hear 
>ds> a gunshot, but I'll sleep through a thunderstorm, and in fact 
>ds> rather enjoy the sound of thunder in the evenings.  It is foolish 
>ds> to not think deer can distinguish between the two.  
>
>Russell Lawrence writes:
>rl> It's even more foolish to assume that deer mysteriously 
>rl> understand the difference in significance between the two.  
>
>From article <viking.715407469@vincent2.iastate.edu>, by viking@iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson):
>ds> I'd wager that it would take very little time for you to 
>ds> determine the difference between inbound and outbound fire, so 
>ds> why should deer not?  
>
>I'd wager that you and I could learn lots of things in very 
>little time, thanks to the fact that we have at our disposal
>a sophisticated set of symbols to communicate ideas (aka 
>language) as well as a vast cultural storehouse of information.  
>It's foolish, however, to ignore the fact that non-human animals 
>don't have such resources at their disposal. 
>
>ds> It's not a matter of logical reasoning 
>ds> ability.  Remember your hunting days? You've most likely never 
>ds> been shot at while in the woods, but deer are.
>
>Without conditioning, I suspect that most humans wouldn't know 
>if/when they've been the target of a gunman.  I realize that you 
>watch a lot of television, and have actually been shot with a bb 
>gun, and spend a lot of time thinking about guns, but surely 
>you're not suggesting that your experience has prepared you to 
>know what sort of thoughts run through the minds of deer when
>they hear the sound of thunder or the sound of gunfire.  
>
>ds> Can you distinguish between gunshots and thunder?  How about a 
>ds> 12ga and a .22?  We're not exactly prey animals, either, and 
>ds> hence our abilities in this area probably haven't been increased 
>ds> through evolution to the same extent that those of deer have.  
>
>Please explain how/why you think evolution would help an animal
>distinguish between the explosions produced by 12 gauge shotguns
>and the explosions produced by 22 rifles.
>

Need I remind you, Russell, your claim was no difference between thunder and
gunshots. Dan is obviously pointing out that there is not only a difference 
between those, but even a recognizeable difference between types of guns.

>ds> I'm not saying a deer hears a shot and thinks, "Hmmmm...  Sounds 
>ds> like a 12ga, long-barrel, about 320 yards away," but it's foolish 
>ds> to think they cannot associate a gunshot with danger and 
>ds> distinguish it from thunder, and it is likewise foolish to think 
>ds> that the smell of humans in the forest wouldn't be associated 
>ds> with danger by default.  
>
>Why should the smell of humans be associated with danger by default?
>
>Why should deer associate gunshots with danger, but not associate
>thunder with danger?
>

And here it is again. This question has been answered well several times. You
are being incredibly stubborn on this one point. There is a difference, deer 
know the difference. Our being able to explain or understand how or why they 
know the difference doesn't change the fact that they do. Are you having
difficulty believing that?

Jeff Achenbach
achenbac@epcot.spdc.ti.com

Newsgroups: talk.politics.animals