HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: c34657b@saha.hut.fi (Tuomas Viljanen)
Newsgroups: alt.war
Subject: Re: Roman Army sizes
Date: 12 Jan 93 15:05:34 GMT
Organization: The Nibelungenlied Incorporated

In article <C0qtrH.CxH@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk> monaghan@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (N.O. Monaghan) writes:
>"Thomas J. Joyce" <tj06+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
>
>>Does anyone have any good references for establishing how large ancient
>>army (particularly Roman) troop sizes were? Along the lines of cohort, etc.
>
>One book to have a look at would be Hans Delbru"ck: History of the Art
>of War Volume I Antiquity which discusses the size of ancient armies
>amongst other things, although it is somewhat dated.

Another good source is "Armies and Enemies of Imperial Rome 150 BC-600 AD"
by Phil Barker (Wargames' Research Group). There are descripted the strat-
egies, tacticvs, units, weaponry etc of the era. But you wanted an example,
you'll get one of the era of Titus:

The largest single unit was, of course Legio (LEH-ghee-oh).  It was commanded
by a Legatus Legiones, with a staff of 10 officers.

Each Legio consisted of ten Cohortes (ko-HORR-tehs). Each Cohors (ko-HORRs) 
were 480 strong, except the most senior, which was 800 men. A Cohors was 
commanded by a senior Centurio (Kehn-TOOR-ee-oh),  who left his own Centuria
to his Optio.

A Cohors was technically divided into six Centuriae. Each Centuria (Kehn-TOOR-
yah) was 80 strong and commanded by a Centurio, whi had an Optio (OP-tee-oh)
as his assistant. In addidition, each two Centuriae were grouped to form a
Manipulus, but a Manipulus (man-EEP-oo-loose) was more an administrative rather
than a tactical unit. The most senior Cohors had no Manipuli, but five double-
strenght Centuriae.

Each Centuria was 80 strong, and consisted of ten Contuberniae, each Contubern-
ia (Kohn-too-BEHRN-yah) consisting of eight Legionarii and a Decurio.

Each Legio had its own Aquila standard. If commanded by a particular warlord,
like a Senator, Consul, Dictator etc, hi might in addition have his own
Vexillum as an army standard.

In addition, each Legio had also field artillery: each Cohors were responsible
for one Onager and each Centuria for one Ballista. In addition, each Centuria
fielded one contubernia of Fabri (pioneers).

Auxiliae were included in also: each Cohors Quingenar fielded 6 Centuriae,
and added in 4 Turmae of 32 cavalry and Cohors Millaria of 10 Centuriae 
8 Turmae. Cohortes Auxilia were trained to support the Legiones and to
act in difficult terrain. They did not field engines.

Cavalry was either distributed into Turmae to support the infantry or organized
into Alae of 16 Turmae (a total of 480) each. 

Therefore, a Legio with Auxiliae consisted normally of about 6000 men.
Normally a field army consisted of two to five Legiones.



--++ Tuomas Viljanen                     ++ For a battle like Crecy, you do ++
  ++ Lahderanta 20 A 19                  ++ not need a military genius like ++
  ++ SF-02720 Espoo FINLAND              ++ Edward III. All you need is an  ++
  ++ 358-0-592175 or c34657b@saha.hut.fi ++ idiot like Duke of Alencon.     ++
Newsgroups: alt.war
From: parasite@jupiter.sun.csd.unb.ca (Leslie Mills)
Subject: Re: medival warfare
Keywords: seige warfare
Organization: University of New Brunswick
Distribution: alt.war
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 17:35:49 GMT

In article <1993Jan7.201726.4580@news.columbia.edu> dan@cubmol.bio.columbia.edu (Daniel Zabetakis) writes:
>In article <1993Jan7.180507.24854@fcom.cc.utah.edu> syl5487@u.cc.utah.edu (SCOTT LEE/HISTORY) writes:
>>Was it easier just to starve them out?
>>
>   Probably. I think most sieges had thier conclusions based on outside
>events, namely relief. If a relief army could come to the rescue, even if
>very small, it could cause so much difficulty for the investing forces that
>they would have to give it up. I think it was common for castles to 
>surrender when they got word that there would be no relief attempt.

>   Wellington suggested that slaughtering the garrison of a resisting 
>fortress will encourage other forts to surrender promptly when besieged.

He wasn't the only one.  Some theorists said that it could actually be
more humane to utterly destroy an enemy if he turned down *one* offer
for him to surrender.  Since (in theory) this would convince any enemy
force to surrender rather than fight at any hint of a disadvantage.

The Mongols were the most effective practitioners of this tatic I could
think of at the moment.

Slaughtering an enemy can also backfire also.  Aside from angering the
enemy, the effect on the troops killing a subdued foe can be detrimental.
In the Battle of the Alamo, where the Americans were first offered a 
chance to surrender, the Americans refused.  When the fort was finally
ovverun, a few Americans finally did surrender.  The Mexican commander
had them tortured to death.  This treatment demoralized the Mexicans
in that campaign, and made them question the rightness of their cause.

>
>DanZ
>
>-- 
>This article is for entertainment purposes only. Any facts, opinions,
>narratives or ideas contained herein are not necessarily true, and do
>not necessarily represent the views of any particular person.  
>

-- 
Leslie Mills

If you love something, set it free.  If it doesn't come back to you,
Hunt it down and kill it -- Thus sayeth a T-shirt
Xref: sparky alt.war:2372 soc.women:22411
From: cowan@ssrl01.slac.stanford.edu (P.L. Cowan)
Newsgroups: alt.war,soc.women
Subject: Re: Revenge of The Women In Combat thing....
Date: 9 Jan 93 08:46:45 -0800
Organization: SSRL, Stanford Synchrotron Radiation Lab
NNTP-Posting-Host: ssrl01.slac.stanford.edu

In article <C0LCAE.631@news.rich.bnr.ca>, jarthur@bnr.ca (John Thompson) writes:
> 
> I don't want to seem anti-feminist or anything, but it seems to me that the
> Iditarod winner is usually praised for their ability to train a winning team
> of dogs.  Perhaps it would be more informative if we knew the gender of the
> dogs!

Training dogs is certainly a key, but don't be fooled into believing 
the driver goes for a sleigh ride. Think about running much of the 1000+
miles in snowshoes to avoid fatiguing the dogs, (wo)manhandling a heavy
sled back onto the trail from time to time, feeding, watering and tending to 
the dogs during "rest" periods (for dogs only), and keeping this up 24 hours a
day for the duration of the race.

-- 
Paul Cowan     
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
   Please send replies, comments etc. (no flames thank you) to COWAN@ANL.GOV   
"If anyone disagrees with anything I say, I am quite prepared not only to
retract it, but also to deny under oath that I ever said it." Tom Lehrer
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: alt.war
From: pyotr@halcyon.com (Peter D. Hampe)
Subject: Re: medival warfare
Keywords: seige warfare
Organization: Northwest Nexus Inc. (206) 455-3505
Distribution: alt.war
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 16:38:49 GMT

"Castles" are meant to keep out enemy personell and projectiles,
ergo they got more massive as the technology improved until the
cannon made stone walls a liability.  Then the shift to entrenchment
and fields of fire and so forth.

"seige engines" range from the traditional catapult (throw rocks at 
'castle' knock holes in roof, let in weather.) to the various spear
chuckers (which were very accurate) up to the trebuchet which launched
hundredweight objects a goodly distance (these probably got the 
job of returning spys and dead critters).  Other 'engines'
were for protecting the ram crew as the pounded down the doors, or
the 'Bad Neighbor' - the tower that allowed you to shoot down on his
wall and put troops over the wall.

Sapping was an Art - and sometimes work, sometimes didn't.

Starvation was always part of the process.  In some occasions it
was the process.  Of course it worked against the invaders - the 
available food was probably already inside the castle.  Field 
Sanitation was just that - use the field.  After a while "pee eew"
but at least you were out in the fresh air.  (Gasp, Gasp)

chus
pyotr

-- 
Pyotr aka Peter D. Hampe : eka pyotr@halcyon.com
Next Month's Panel: Us and Them - Eliminating Them.
EOF
Newsgroups: alt.war,soc.women,alt.war.vietnam,alt.dads-rights
From: johne@PROBLEM_WITH_INEWS_GATEWAY_FILE (John Eaton)
Subject: Re: Women In Combat And Standards
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 16:33:55 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard VCD
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5

drieux, just drieux (drieux@wetware.com) wrote:
: 
: Would they equally exempt men from combat units for
: not making the grade???? 
:----------------
If you fail a strenght/endurance test during boot camp they will probably
reassign you to a holding company where you will spend ALL your time doing
physical training. You will eventually become "inspired" enough to pass
the test and get on with your military career.

John Eaton
!hp-vcd!johne
From: HADCRJAM@admin.uh.edu (MILLER, JIMMY A.)
Newsgroups: alt.war
Subject: Re: Roman Army sizes
Date: 12 Jan 1993 15:51:59 GMT
Organization: University of Houston Administrative Computing
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: uhad2.admin.uh.edu
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.20

In <C0qtrH.CxH@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk> monaghan@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk writes:

> "Thomas J. Joyce" <tj06+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
> 
> >Does anyone have any good references for establishing how large ancient
> >army (particularly Roman) troop sizes were? Along the lines of cohort, etc.
> 
> One book to have a look at would be Hans Delbru"ck: History of the Art
> of War Volume I Antiquity which discusses the size of ancient armies
> amongst other things, although it is somewhat dated.

  Also pretty old (it's based on an 1880's(!) paper) but still a good read is 
_The Art of War in the Middle Ages_ by W.C. Oman.  The section on Rome is fairly
short, but he does use it in comparisons and describes the sizes and composi-
tions of the armies in the battles, as well as national tactics.


semper fi,

Jammer Jim Miller 
Texas A&M University '89 and '91
********************************************************************************
* Speak for my employers?  They don't even know I exist!		       *
*"Become one with the Student Billing System. *BE* the Student Billing System."*
* "Power finds its way to those who take a stand.  Stand up, Ordinary Man."    *
*      ---Rik Emmet, Gil Moore, Mike Levine: Triumph 		               *
********************************************************************************
Newsgroups: alt.war
Subject: Re: medival warfare 
From: mike@aloysius.equinox.gen.nz (Mike Campbell)
Date: Fri, 08 Jan 93 21:18:48 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Me? Organized?


In article <1993Jan7.201726.4580@news.columbia.edu> dan@cubmol.bio.columbia.edu writes:

  > 
  > In article <1993Jan7.180507.24854@fcom.cc.utah.edu> syl5487@u.cc.utah.edu  >  (SCOTT LEE/HISTORY) writes:
  > >How effective was artilery (catipults and trebuches) ?
  >   
  >    I'm not an expert, but probably these things had little or no effect.
  > Perhaps a psychological effect. It would take a very long times to cause
  > enough damage inside a castle to cause a capitulation. I doubt it is very
  > easy to start fires.
  >    As far a knocking down the walls, I doubt catipults could have any effect
  > once stone walls were invented.

Tell that to "Demetrius the Beseiger", c300BC, the Romans, etc.  
Catapaults were quite complicated peices of machinery, but certainly 
seem to have been effective enough at destryong walls if used 
properly.  The main problem with them is that they have to be within 
their "point blank" range to be effective.  This is the range where 
projectiles will hit the walls at right angles.  For all catapaults 
this range is very short (100 yds more or less?), and the crews 
arewell within range of archery & light artillery on the walls.  
Lighter catapaults, archers & crossbowmen must therefore be used to 
keep the walls clear of defenders while the "heavies" do the work.

  >    I read that it was the advent and advance of iron shot the caused the
  > decline of castles. The iron _could_ penetrate stone walls. Of course, this
  > lead to the early modern artillery fortresses which are castle-like.

Nothing really "penetrates" a stone wall 20-30' thick :-).  Rather the 
iron balls would do more damage because they didn't absorb energy by 
shattering, and could be fired faster.

  > >What about sappers?
  > 
  >    I would say that sapping should almost always be effective, but takes
  > so long that the siege will probably be successful or broken prior to
  > completion of the sap.

The Greeks used mining c 350-400 BC.  It's easy enough to do - if you 
can find some competent miners!!

  > 
  > >Was it easier just to starve them out?
  > >
  >    Probably. I think most sieges had thier conclusions based on outside
  > events, namely relief. If a relief army could come to the rescue, even if
  > very small, it could cause so much difficulty for the investing forces that
  > they would have to give it up. I think it was common for castles to 
  > surrender when they got word that there would be no relief attempt.

Most armies didn't have decent seige trains or sappers, which really 
only leaves storm or starvation!


  >    Wellington suggested that slaughtering the garrison of a resisting 
  > fortress will encourage other forts to surrender promptly when besieged.

Worked well for the Mongols!

Mike Campbell, Christchurch, New Zealand
mike@aloysius.equinox.gen.nz 
Newsgroups: alt.war
From: ssalter@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (-=[SLS]=-)
Subject: Re: Progress in War, Chivalry, Honor, Loss of Life...
Organization: OFSA
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 13:56:52 GMT

drieux@wetware.com (drieux, just drieux) remarks cheerfully:


>And Hurling Dead Animals into the Town to spread 
>plague and pestilence was considered Good Tactics.....

Sure it was good tactics! Nasty perhaps but war IS nasty.

>ps: it is a comedy watching folks play at the game
>of chivalry, who wish not to deal with the unpleasantness
>of the history....

The "unpleasantness" of history will always remain. Those that wish to
embrace the idealized concepts of chivalry do not have to wallow in
that. It is one of our strengths to be able to learn from the past and
discard the "bad" while keeping the "good", if you you follow me.

Fireworks that we all enjoy so much on July 4th or other occasions
were used in war in ancient times. Does that mean we should not use
them because of their "unpleasant" significance?

Humans learn through trial and error. By refining techniques we can
avoid the unpleasantness of one "experiment" and keep only those
facets of the experience that were useful.

>ObSafety: I have redirected the follow up to alt.war, where
>I think that we can discuss this matter at length if anyone
>is really interested in the matter....

Ok, but I don't read alt.war...does this mean I have to subscribe to
yet another newsgroup? Awww drieux, how could you!? *sob*

>ObInFamilyStuff: Steve, NO, this is NOT a call to 
>reopen our traditional Jihaud.... As Soon as you
>Understand I am right, all will be well....

*snicker* Too late, I am already answering this post.

>OR YOU WILL BE BURNED AT THE STAKE
>in carmelized chocolete by someone who
>clearly is NOT a Chef....

Because people WERE burned at the stake (including such notable as
Joan of Arc) does this mean we need to discard shish kebobs?...or just
refrain from burning people along with the onions, green peppers and
other assorted delights.

Steven


Xref: sparky alt.war:2354 soc.women:22299 alt.war.vietnam:723
From: cote@cs.ucsd.edu (Brad Cote)
Newsgroups: alt.war,soc.women,alt.war.vietnam
Subject: Re: Revenge of The Women In Combat thing....
Date: 7 Jan 93 18:47:33 GMT
Followup-To: alt.war

erover@panix.com (Elizabeth Rover) writes:

>A recent study (ie: within the past year) of the Donner Party's failed
>attempt to get from the east coast of the U.S. out to the west coast showed
>that women tend to be better survivors than men. Discover Magazine wrote
>this whole thing up, and I don't remember which issue it was, or the facts
>of the expidition, but what it came down to was that they encountered a
>horrible winter, and the men generally died before the women. Somehow,
>someone, somewhere, disproved the old theory, that the men were chivalrous
>and let the women eat the food, and took better care of the women than of
>the men. The truth of the matter, in this case at least, is that, even
>without training, the women had better endurance than the men. So, to say
>that "a woman's survival rate would probably be about 2 or 3 seconds" is
>not only unfounded, but unsubstantiatable. 

I don't want to get into this cat fight about men vs women, but I have
to comment on the above post. It is true that the Donner party had a
higher percentage of women (and children, I might add) who survived.
However, one should note the circumstances. The trek west was long,
difficult, and used an unknown route which was being promoted by a
lone whacky scout. Most of the men walked with the wagons during the
trip, the women and children mostly rode. At one point they had to
hack a path large enough for wagons which was mostly brush. This was
hard tedious work. While I am sure women contributed, this work was
done mostly by the men. The wagons used on the passage needed constant
attention (and sometimes physical assistance) to keep moving. Repairs
included replacing broken yokes and axles, which was done by felling
trees and fabricating replacements. None of this was done by the
women. There are physiological differences between men and women which
also contributed to the women's higher survival rate. Men carry less
body fat, and after a long and hard journey, most were exhausted.

By the way, a recent PBS special (which was produced in the same
manner as the Civil War) covered the Donner party. It was absolutely
fascinating. One thing I remember is a picture of a man on horseback
next to a tree that had been cut at his waist level. The picture had
been taken several years after the Donner party thier Donner lake
camp. The height of the tree stump was the level of the snow. Another
thing I remember was how a group trying to walk out turned on two
indians who had came to try and help them. They wanted to murder them
for food. The indians took off, and were either dead, or near it, when
the party caught up to them. They were of course, eaten.


                                    Brad Cote'
                                    University of California, San Diego
                                    STARE Project
From: HADCRJAM@admin.uh.edu (MILLER, JIMMY A.)
Newsgroups: alt.war
Subject: Book Reccomendation
Date: 4 Jan 1993 18:59:13 GMT
Organization: University of Houston Administrative Computing
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: uhad2.admin.uh.edu
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.20

  For those who may not have seen it: _A Quick and Dirty Guide to War_ by
Dunnigan and Bay.  Examines areas of ongoing or potential conflict by region,
with brief histories, motivations of the major players, and projected outcomes.
I'm only half-way through at the moment, but I thought I'd mention it anyway.
It's a good read, educational, and the authors (IMO) tend to avoid moralizing.
Only one problem in that it's slightly out of date already.  Mine was published
shortly after the second Gulf War, and it notes the effects of this on Mid-East
politics, but much of the speculation regarding the Balkans is already out-of-
date--though still interesting (read it for the histories anyway -- my previous
knowledge about the area was mostly from my readings of the Byzantine and Otto-
man Empires).


semper fi,

Jammer Jim Miller 
Texas A&M University '89 and '91
********************************************************************************
* Speak for my employers?  They don't even know I exist!		       *
*"Become one with the Student Billing System. *BE* the Student Billing System."*
* "Power finds its way to those who take a stand.  Stand up, Ordinary Man."    *
*      ---Rik Emmet, Gil Moore, Mike Levine: Triumph 		               *
********************************************************************************
Newsgroups: alt.war
From: syl5487@u.cc.utah.edu (SCOTT LEE/HISTORY)
Subject: medival warfare
Keywords: seige warfare
Organization: University of Utah Computer Center Student Mail Machine
Distribution: alt.war
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 93 18:05:07 GMT

What would be a good example of a 'typical' castle?
How effective was artilery (catipults and trebuches) ?
What about sappers?
Was it easier just to starve them out?

excuse the spelling

scott.lee@m.cc.utah.edu
From: seth@inst-sun1.tmc.edu (Seth Chazanoff)
Newsgroups: alt.war
Subject: Re: Roman Army sizes
Date: 12 Jan 1993 17:37:16 GMT
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, CA, USA
NNTP-Posting-Host: inst-sun1.jpl.nasa.gov

Tom

	Unit          Size          Commander

        Century      60-100 men     Centurion
        Maniple      3 Centuries    Centurion
        Cohort       2 Maniples     Sr. Centruion
        Legion       10 Cohorts     Legate

I don't remember where I copied this from.

				Seth
From: bsrrg@dct.ac.uk
Newsgroups: alt.aeffle.und.pferdle
Subject: Ae neis Johr
Date: 6 Jan 93 09:46:59 GMT
Organization: Dundee Institute of Technology

Sallue!

Na, wie goht's eich so, ihr Boschder do drusse? Henner Silweschder
einigermase ueberlebt? Wohrschiens henner z'viel g'soffe...

Also, eich elle ae guets neis Johr un elles Guete

Euer
		Chmul
From: bsrrg@dct.ac.uk
Newsgroups: alt.aeffle.und.pferdle
Subject: Wo sinner?
Date: 11 Jan 93 17:24:00 GMT
Organization: Dundee Institute of Technology

Sallue Ihr vum laedschdi Johr!

Wo sinner daenn elle? Sinner no im Winderschlof?
Worum schiebe ner niggs mae, Pedl unn de Reschd?

		Chmul
From: bsrrg@dct.ac.uk
Newsgroups: alt.aeffle.und.pferdle
Subject: Re: Ae neis Johr
Date: 11 Jan 93 17:21:13 GMT
Organization: Dundee Institute of Technology

In article <wunner.726536183@nova>, 
wunner@nova.tat.physik.uni-tuebingen.de (Guenter Wunner) writes:
> 
> Joa, dange, aber s isch a weng schbaed, net war net?
> 	Lukas.
> 

Sallue Lukas,

jo, a weng schbaed isch's scho. Aba i bin hald ned frueha an ae 
Gombjuda drakomme, weisch. Bi mir daheim henn i kei Naedsaschluss.

Adee,
                Chmul

		
Newsgroups: alt.aeffle.und.pferdle
From: wunner@nova.tat.physik.uni-tuebingen.de (Guenter Wunner)
Subject: Re: Ae neis Johr
Organization: TAT (Theoretical Astrophysics Tuebingen), U. of Tuebingen, FRG
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 23:36:23 GMT

bsrrg@dct.ac.uk writes:

>Sallue!

>Na, wie goht's eich so, ihr Boschder do drusse? Henner Silweschder
>einigermase ueberlebt? Wohrschiens henner z'viel g'soffe...

>Also, eich elle ae guets neis Johr un elles Guete

>Euer
>		Chmul

Joa, dange, aber s isch a weng schbaed, net war net?
	Lukas.

           *** "Fer sell cheep:  IBM spel chekker.  Wurks grate." ***
        *** Lukas Wunner, Hustadtring 143, 4630 Bochum, West-Germany ***
      *** lukas@trillian.tp1.ruhr-uni-bochum.de / lukas@134.147.160.21 ***
From: pra@aifb.uni-karlsruhe.de (Pedl Rau)
Newsgroups: alt.aeffle.und.pferdle
Subject: Re: Wo senn'r?
Date: 12 Jan 1993 13:20:01 GMT
Organization: AIFB, University of Karlsruhe (Germany)
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: nz11.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de

In article <1993Jan11.172400.2735@dct.ac.uk>, bsrrg@dct.ac.uk writes:
>
> Wo sinner daenn elle? Sinner no im Winderschlof?
> Worum schiebe ner niggs mae, Pedl unn de Reschd?
>
> 		Chmul

I be aellweil no do, abr wega meirer Diblomarbet han e ned
viel Zeid. I komm ned amol me zom Aeffle-ond-Pferdle-Gugga
(schluchz).

 Pedl
From: rbp@netcom.com (Bob Pasker)
Newsgroups: alt.motorcycles.harley,aus.motorcycles,ba.motorcycles,fj.rec.motorcycles,ky.motorcycles,tx.motorcycles
Subject: new DoD Yellow Pages available (short announcement)
Date: 6 Jan 93 06:35:46 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)

i have posted it to rec.motorcycles and sent it to bruce tanner to be
added to the cerritos.edu ftp site.


-- 
-- 
-- bob pasker
-- rbp@netcom.com
--
Newsgroups: alt.hotrod,wiz.hotrod