From: mdw@db.TC.Cornell.EDU (Matt Welsh)
Subject: Re: Licencing of computer professionals
Organization: The Linux Inquisition, Propaganda Division
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 08:08:24 GMT

In article <Bz89rD.LH8@ddsw1.mcs.com> karl@ddsw1.mcs.com (Karl Denninger) writes:
>In article <1992Dec11.054110.8618@tc.cornell.edu> mdw@db.TC.Cornell.EDU (Matt Welsh) writes:
>>You could always do electrical work at a friend's house with their consent.
>>But don't plan to start up business as a professional electrician.
>
>Why not?  If I am honest with people about the fact that I have no
>"certification" why should it be illegal for me to sell my services wiring
>homes?

Of course, you could do this. I don't know how successful you'd be, but I don't
think anyone will stop you from trying. 

>Note that whether I'm certified or not if your house burns down due to my
>shoddy work you (or your insurance company) can still sue my ass off or
>worse.

Isn't America great? :)

>>Perhaps institutions that wish to hire responsible 
>>programmers or system administrators should require a few common-sense
>>prerequisites, like some kind of degree from an educational institution,
>>and so on. 	^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>All I can say is this -- I have seen over 200 resumes in the last six months
>from wanna-be people to work for me.  Every one screaming loud and clear how
>well qualified they are on the basis of their education.  NOT ONE OF THESE
>PEOPLE IS, IMHO, SUITABLE TO HIRE.  Why?  They all want to trumpet education 
>instead of their >practical< experience.  I'm not interested in someone's
>GPA; I'm interested in what they know and how they approach a problem.  You
>do >not< learn these things in a classroom; you learn them with your hands
>on the material.

I've never had a programming class where I didn't 'get my hands on the material'
and actually program. A college degree is a good way of getting this experience,
but I never said it was the ONLY way. Of course there are things one needs in
addition to said degree. Note that I said "...and so on", implying that there 
was more involved than just a degree.

>I have over ten years of experience in this industry.  I have no degree; I 
>quit college when I started making more money writing code than I was paying
>out in tuition.  My department head said "you'll never amount to anything,
>and you'll never get a job".  Wrong on both counts. 

Good for you. I also never said that there wern't any exceptions to my
(rather bad) generalization.

>I have met more people who are truly talented without degrees in the
>computer industry than those with.  I have discovered, much to my chagrin,
>that many of the people who have degrees, especially advanced ones, couldn't
>program their way out of a paper bag and have NO idea how to design a
>complex system so it works reliably.

That's your personal experience. Mine has been quite the opposit, but the
point here is not whether or not a degree will ensure that a certain person
is qualified. A degree is ABLE to ensure this, but it doesn't in most cases.
And, as you say, in many cases you don't need a degree at all. My example
was simply pointing out a single case.

>Software design is NOT a science.  It, and programming, is an art form.  You
>can engineer networks or disk arrays; they follow simple patterns.  Software
>design isn't the same thing; there are infinite ways to approach a problem,
>and an infinite number of solutions.  The question is which method best meets 
>the design constraints.

I prefer to think of programming as both an art and a science; however, that's
off the subject.

>>It does,
>>however, show that I've learned enough about driving to drive
>>responsibly if I want to. 
>
>That would be true if software design and programming were as simple as
>"press the air pedal and the car goes faster, press the brake and it slows
>down".  But programming isn't that way.  Thus, you need artisans to do a
>truly outstanding job.  It is easy to parrot someone else's work.  Real,
>honest ground-breaking efforts don't come from a machine.  They come from a
>healthy mind.

That's true, and it's also true of driving. Just as I said, I may know
how to drive perfectly well, but I may not do a good job at it (i.e. I could
go mad and start running over pedestrians). Just because I know how to drive--
or program-- doesn't mean I'm going to do a good/responsible job at it. 

That's why a programmer's license wouldn't work. You can't test for these traits.
My point exactly.

mdw
-- 
Matt Welsh     mdw@tc.cornell.edu     Cornell Theory Center
  "Go on, emote! I was raised on thought balloons!"
Xref: sparky comp.org.eff.talk:7748 alt.privacy:2675 alt.comp.acad-freedom.talk:3793 comp.security.misc:2319