From: doel@ausablecrd.ge.com (Michael Doel)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.bush,talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.clinton,alt.politics.elections
Subject: Re: Passing out Condoms  (Was Re: Better Off Than Four Years Ago NOT)
Date: 28 Aug 92 13:27:36 GMT
Reply-To: doel@crd.ge.com
Organization: GE Research & Development

In article <1992Aug27.165417.13648@ornl.gov>, de5@ORNL.GOV (Dave Sill) writes:
> In article <1992Aug27.130822.8001@crd.ge.com>, doel@ausable.crd.ge.com (Michael Doel) writes:
> >
> >Well, I would say there are two classes of risks: health risks to the individual
> >and the risk of decay in our values system (see below).  I agree that the
> >health risks are able to stand on their own as you suggest.  The other class
> >of risks, however, can not stand on their own by definition.
> 
> By what definition?  If our values aren't clearly Good, people won't follow
> them.

When I said "by definition", I meant that it is impossible to do this because
of what any value means.  Reread what I said next and pick any value that our
society holds (e.g. responsibility is good) and see if you can express concern
that responsibility is no longer considered a good thing without implicitly
saying that we should all be responsible.


> >If we as a society hold as a certain value, then we can not present the risk
> >of that value going away without at the same time encouraging that the value
> >be continued.
> 
> Firstly, that's a big "if".  I challenge you to produce a set of values that
> society holds.  If you get much more detailed than "good things are good, bad
> things are bad", there will be precious few things that we can agree on.

I've already listed a few.  Among the things we consider good are honesty,
responsibility, hard work, courage, integrity, volunteerism, caring,
compassion, charitable giving, and loyalty.  There are lots more.  A values
system also characterizes bad things.  For our society, these include
cheating, stealing, unprovoked violence, laziness, infidelity, and yes
promiscuity.

People may draw their own conclusions as to what is promiscuous, but no matter
where they do, I suspect that most consider promiscuous behavior to be bad.



> >I am all for presenting a balanced, accurate view of the benefits and risks
> >of sex from a health perspective.  I would be strongly opposed to presenting
> >a positive view of promiscuity from an ethical standpoint though.  To do
> >so would undermine our values system.
> 
> Who ever suggested "presenting a positive view of promiscuity"?

Another poster said that only presenting a negative view of promiscuity
was immoral.


>                                                                 Unless you
> equate that with teaching so-called safe sex?  If what the public schools teach
> undermines *your* (not *our*) values system, then I suggest *you* put *your*
> children in a school that will properly indoctrinate them to your preferred
> values.

Public schools should reinforce the values society holds.  If I hold values
over and above those, I can not expect the schools to enforce my own
beliefs.


> >Perhaps you don't understand what I mean when I talk about our traditional
> >values system.  I'm not including anything about Jesus Christ being the
> >son of God, or don't eat meat on the Fridays of Lent, or any other
> >RELIGIOUS belief or practice.
> 
> Wasn't it you that mentioned judeo-christian values?

Judeo-Christian values does not mean Judaism or Christianity or both.  Almost
all of these values are held by people throughout the world, regardless of
religion.



> >Our values system is much more fundamental than that.
> 
> There you go again with "our" values.  I'll thank you not to speak on my
> behalf.

When I say "our values" I speak for society as a whole, not every member
in it.  You are free to have your own values, but if they conflict with
those of the majority, you can not expect the government to encourage
them.



> >Despite what you say, I think there are traditional values that
> >just about everyone would agree with:
> 
> WRONG!
> 
> >	good things:                   bad things:
> >	   honesty                       cheating
> 
> There are times when a white lie is Better than The Truth.  And I can imagine
> scenarios where cheating would be Better than not cheating.  In general,
> though, I agree.

So you agree that honesty is valued as a good thing.  Sure there are exceptions,
but you won't find many people who don't care whether or not you tell the
truth on a regular basis.


> 
> >	   responsibility                stealing
> 
> OK.
> 
> >	   hard work                     unprovoked violence
> 
> Hard work is Good but easy work is Bad?  Leasure must be positively evil.

Of course not.


> 
> >           the "golden rule"             promiscuity
> 
> Hold on there just a second, pardner.  Just how do you define "promiscuity"? 
> Sex outside of wedlock?  Sex with multiple partners?  Simultaneously? 
> Recreational sex between consenting adults?  Sex with minors?  Sex with
> non-humans?  Gay sex?  Oral sex?  What?

Pick your own definition.  No matter what it is, do you think we as
a society should encourage it or move in a direction which would allow
promiscuous behavior to become socially acceptable?



> >...but for the most part people agree on most categorizations.
> 
> I agree, for the most part.  I disagree in the case of "promiscuity", and the
> level of so-called promiscuity exhibited by the population seems to imply that
> I'm not unusual in this respect.

People do things which they consider to be wrong all the time.



> I get the feeling you use the term "promiscuity" much in the same manner that
> fundamentalists use the term "homosexual".  

If by that you mean that for fundamentalists homosexuality is bad and
for me promiscuity is bad, then you would be correct.  If you mean that
I consider homosexual behavior to be necessarily promiscuous, then you
would be wrong.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mike Doel				<doel@crd.ge.com>
P.O. Box 8
Schenectady, NY 12301			(518) 387-6203

"For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat
 and wrong." - H.L. Mencken
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