From: heimberg@pacific.mitre.org (Jeff Heimberger)
Subject: Re: Who cares
Organization: The MITRE Corporation
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 12:09:42 GMT

In article <2A6C9AB4.29430@noiro.acs.uci.edu> cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese) writes:
>
>I have a feeling that if you stopped every man on the street and asked
>him if he did any of these things (mentioned in a previous post) they
>would all say, "Hell, no!"  I guess none of it happens then.

No, of course it happens.  However, I believe it is a minority of
individuals who commit these crimes, and, in some instances, inspire
others to do likewise as you allude to below.

>You are not thinking too clearly if you pretend that group dynamics can
>be understood by adding up the dynamics of the individual members.
>Group psychology is a beast with a mind all its own.  

Gee, Janis, you're getting a bit personal here, aren't you?  Please
attack the issues -- not me.

>>How could you be a consumer and not destroy the environment, unless you
>>lived an utterly organic lifestyle, and eschewed everything such as
>>prepared foods, electricity, motor transportation, etc.?
>
>That's why he said MINIMIZE THE IMPACT.  Jeez. 

You've got a point.  But, why should I feel guilty if I've done all that
I believe I can?

>>What about evolution?  Male agression was bred into us over the
>>millenia because it helped perpetuate the species, and now, we are to
>>throw it all away in the blink of an eye because it's Politically
>>Incorrect.  Don't get me wrong -- I do not for a moment condone rape,
>>spousal abuse, discrimination based on gender, etc., all of which I
>>view as crimes.  However, I believe it is arrogant for the human race
>>to suddenly devalue everything that nature bred into us over centuries
>>of evolution.
>
>You sound like Robert Ardrey and Desmond Morris -- Man the Hunter
>striding brutally into the future.

I'm not familiar with either of them.

>Human beings love to think that we
>are special because we have language and intellect, but when we don't
>feel like getting off our fat asses and doing something, we love equally
>to say, "Oh, it's human nature," -- that means that it was either
>ordained by God or evolved as a survival skill into us.  Either way,
>it's a great excuse for sitting back and not changing destructive
>habits.

But we are -- look at the progress that has been made in the last 40
years.  Sure, we need *much* *more* progress, but I don't see anybody
keeping *you* barefoot and pregnant in a kitchen anywhere.

>Humans also lived previously by totally screwing up one corner of the
>land, moving on, and doing it somewhere else, meanwhile allowing the old
>land to sit by itself and recover.  Since pushing against nature is
>evolved into us, I guess we shouldn't do anything about it, then, right?

Not at all.  My point is that we need to work together and stop trying
to blame folks for the problems of the past.  We have a political
system in the US that presents an avenue for change to all people.

>We ain't livin' on the savannah in 1992, Jeff.  Our lives have changed,
>and that means that we must change as well.

No kidding? :-)

>>Perhaps it is time for the next evolutionary step, but will any of us
>>see it in our lifetimes?  I doubt it, given the amount of time required
>>by evolution.  That, however, does not mean that we should not strive
>>for it, but it does mean that the Oppressed Masses [tm] could be a bit
>>more understanding of the Straight White Males [tm, again] who don't
>>buy into the old ways.
>
>Okay.  You don't buy into the old ways.  But then why are you so angry
>and threatened when one of the Oppressed Masses (YOUR word, not mine)
>lets off some steam? 

Actually, I'm not angry when the OMs let off some steam.  What angers
me is when *I* get lumped in with the Bad Old Guys because I happen to
be a Straight White Male.

>>If *you*, by your *personal* lifestyle, cannot convince your children
>>that you are not an oppressor, then you're not doing enough.  But it's
>>not your children you should be concerned with here.  The people to
>>worry about are those who barely know you, but still label you as an
>>oppressor, because of the way you look.  
>
>Excuse me, Jeff, but when was this done to you personally?  If we're
>going to talk only about personal things that each one of us does (your
>idead, not mine as well) then when has a black person ever walked up to
>YOU PERSONALLY and blamed you for slavery?  When has a woman walked up
>to you and said, "Jeff, you are a patriarchal tyrant responsible for my
>oppression?"

In a sense, my company has.  They have a mentoring program that is open
exclusively to women.  I cannot participate merely because I am a man,
and being a man, I have some magickal power to rise within the
company.  However, I have not had anyone come and tell me "Jeff, you're
a man like me, here's a promotion."

>You are angry because you are just beginning to find out what it has
>been like for centuries for other people to be labelled a certain way
>based on physical being.  And you don't like it.  Neither do I.  Join
>the club.  It sounds to me like you just don't want to listen whenever
>"oppressed" People sound off because you're scared they're trying to pin
>it on you.  

Again, I'm not angry.  I'm just sounding off because people do seem to
be trying to pin something on me.  It sounds to me like you just don't
want to listen whenever "oppressed" people sound off because you're
scared they won't be listening to you.

>>It's a form of discrimination
>>that is just as heinous as the traditional forms, and yet people still
>>do not seem to understand.
>
>If the traditional kinds are heinous, why didn't you start screaming
>about discrimination until it hit you personally, from your point of
>view?  When men who yell about reverse discrimination yell just as loud
>about "traditional" discrimination, I'll listen.  In my experience,
>though, you sit back and don't lift a finger until it knocks on your
>door.

Janis, you don't know me at all other than through this dense
electronic veil.  It is inappropriate for you to judge what I have or
haven't done.  You have no idea who I really am, and I am not about to
justify what I do or don't do for you.  The only way to truly end
discrimination is to end it for everyone, not just selected groups.

>Any kind of discrimination is evil. 

Agreed.

Regards,

Jeff H...