From: Tagi@cup.portal.com (Tagi Mordred Nagashiva)
Newsgroups: alt.satanism
Subject: Re: Christians to the Lions!
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 92 11:04:02 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)

9209.15 e.v.


Scott Locklin writes:

OK here's some more FAQ fodder


Response:

I'm glad you're putting this out.  Since you characterized it as 'fodder'
I hope you don't mind my review of it.  We have some different ideas about
Satanism and Christianity, so perhaps we can learn from one another.
 

Scott:

It has been pointed out to me that I've been polluting the cyberspace with
too much attention to EEEDIOTS. This is correct; though I have an excuse:
I've been practicing my typing speed (no-really). I've decided to say something
worthwhile (the uproar of one hand clapping) about preaching on alt.satanism...


Response:

I question whether or not this is simply more attention to idiots and wonder
when some really good stuff about Satanism will surface.  Then again, I see
a piece of the 'coming out of the closet' thread here, so perhaps it is
more substantive than 'find lives (revisited or no)'.

  
Scott:

Quite often, members of fundamentallist christian groups see fit to post 
various evangelical messages in alt.satanism. The reason for this is not
clear. 


Response:

I think of equal importance is the note that many regular members of
alt.satanism see fit to respond to it, which I'd think would eventually
get tiring, but I'm beginning to suspect that alt.satanism has
elements of alt.atheism.2.


Scott:

It has been suggested by various members of this net, who I shall
lump under the convenient category,"Satanist"; that the reason for this
posturing is that many, perhaps most Born-Again christian types are closet
masochists. 


Response:

Yeah, there's probably this element to it.  It may also be a case of
closet SADISM ("Did you see how worked up those Satanists/Pagans/Witches/
Mages/(insert your anti-preaching group here) got about my post?!  Hehehehe.")


Scott:

It has also been suggested that christians need to save a certain
number of souls to get a good seat in paradise, similar in spirit to selling
candy-bars or magazines to fund various extra-curricular activities in school.
Presumably Satanist souls, being sold to the devil already, are worth more 
points. 


Response:

I think this is the 'pity' approach or the 'do-good' approach that many
very innocent and naive Christians take to those who are not 'of the faith',
including towards Christians of other sects (!).  They take labels for
identities and act accordingly.  This happens in all religious groups
to the children who are raised on milk and honey.  

Yes, Satanist souls are indeed those more challenging and therefore more
status-inducing within the fundamentalist community.  Given a conversion
I'm sure that the person 'responsible' would be said to be doing very good
'community-work'.  I contrast this to the Christians who spend time and
money attempting to feed the homeless and poor.


Scott:

While these theories have some merit, considering the teachings of 
their (allegedly) chosen religion, an attempt should be made to be open minded
enough to see their side of things.


Response:

Many Christians did not choose their paths and are actually Satanists, in
that they are adversaries in the 'War of the Faiths'.  The mature Christian
path involves choosing no side and attempting to resolve this war peaceably.

I agree that 'attempting to see their side of things' is a very worthy
approach.  I'd consider it more Christian than Satanic, however. ;>
  

Scott:

Many Christians, when asked why they do this, respond something to the effect
that it is charity, something they do out of the goodness of their hearts,
out of concern for people etc. etc... Well, if the christian is really 
concerned with people, why not preach to those who have not heard the message?


Response:

I think that many of them actually feel this way, especially those who go
out on the streets or door-to-door personally.  The response to this question
would most likely be along the lines that the preaching IS to those who have
not heard the message.  'Hearing' in such communities equates to 'conforming
to'.  Thus the Satanists are the ones who have not heard it and by their
very names and natures display it for all the world to see.  There is no
more potent a target.  By claiming to be a 'Satanist' one sets oneself
up for it.  This burden used to be borne by 'Witches'.  Previous to that
it was the 'Christians', who replaced the 'Jews'.  This is the reason I 
identify the lot of them as manifestations of the Great Martyrdom Cult. 


Scott:

Most "Satanists" are well aquainted with the messages of christianity. They
have been preached to ad-infinitum, and are fed up with it. That is part of the
reason they are Satanists instead of plain- old agnostics. Many Satanists are
deeply offended by these posts, with good reason. 


Response:

There is no 'reason' for offense.  Offense comes from emotional wounds
(insecurity, poor self-image, etc.).  If one is strong and emotionally
healthy, offense is rarely, if ever, taken.  The Satanists who get so
offended are hurt Christians, remorseful over the loss of their faith
or resentful of those who attempt to tell them what to do and how to feel.

Note that I do not say that they are 'undeservingly' resentful.  I think
that what passes for 'religion' in the world today is no less than politics
and coercive politics at that.  It makes sense that people are turning toward
agnosticism, atheism and satanism, given the extreme oppression extant.


Scott:

[most of the Satanist/Christian reversal exploration omitted - good idea]

While christians have no problem explaining their beliefs, having
the Satanic doctrines shoved in their faces is just too much...


Response:

I don't think I'd go this far.  Most Satanists haven't thought very much
about their 'beliefs', I find.  Yes, they are more adept, intellectually,
than the preaching Christians, but this ain't saying much.  I don't think
that it is the fact of having these doctrines forced in their faces that
upsets Satanists so, but the fact that they are the CHRISTIAN doctrines.

Imagine that a Nichiren Shoshu Buddhist comes in here and attempts to
coerce us (through the usual guilt-ploys, enticement, etc.) to read
_The Diamond Sutra_.  I don't think that the average Satanist would
get near as upset about it.  We'd probably ask what the sutra was about.

Most Satanists are former Christians.  I am not, thus I think I have
a clearer perspective on it than many of either group.  It is similar
to having an interested but removed friend observe a fight between myself
and my lover.  She might make some very perceptive observations about
BOTH our attitudes/actions.


Scott:

Now consider this: you will never convert a satanist over USENET. You either

1) are too infuriating

2) look like a fool


Response:

This is simply untrue.  Along with the following criticism, this is 
short-sighted.  I think that you are correct about the hard-core
Satanist (or any hard-core religious individual), but the disoriented
teen types are waiting bait for the preacher who knows the trips and
traps to set out for the Christian-conditioned, unsure mentality.


Scott:

There is NO logical reason to convert to christianity. The only appeals are to
the emotions, and as stated before they either look foolish or infuriating.
Things like, "But Jesus LOVES you; he died for your sins!" or
"Your soul is in danger!!" are appeals to guilt and fear respectively; not
reason. 


Response:

Christianity is largely an emotional path.  Appeals to reason regarding ANY
of its doctrines is ludicrous.  You are correct that there is no logical
reason to convert to Christianity, but most conversions are EMOTIONAL in
nature.  People choose the path/group they want to join based on how they
FEEL about them: whether they are accepted, whether they agree with the
behaviors/words, etc.  Logic has little to do with it.
 
Guilt and fear are the biggest traps of the Christian path.  They are
effectively used as reigns by a large portion of our culture.  This is a
much larger problem than can be attributed to 'Christianity', however.  
Western culture is permeated with it.


Scott:

As most Satanists have chosen this path out of reason, these appeals
will never work. As for those Satanists who are so for emotional reasons, their
minds are as closed as that of the Born-again christian.


Response:

I'd like to see this substantiated.  My experience is, as I've said above,
that most people involved with religion are in it for EMOTIONAL reasons.
Even atheists (whom I do NOT regard as a religion yet) are there arguing
AGAINST the mainstream culture for emotional reasons (generally because
their experience with it was unsatisfying, emotionally, behaviorally,
and intellectually).

Any Satanist whose mind is closed deserves to be preached at. ;>


Scott:

Perhaps, if indeed preaching is done for humanitarian, and not egotistical
or masochistic reasons, your energies are better spent educating those who
know little of your faith; those born atheistic, communists, buddists etc.


Response:

The humanitarian preaching is through activity, silently.  Only the rude,
egotistical, S/M types go all out 'for your soul'.  Oh I suppose there is
the occasional, wayward adolescent who doesn't understand a whit,
but they usually stop preaching early on or it becomes an egotistical
prop.


Scott:

If, as suspected, your purposes are more egotistical (look reverand; I 
converted a Satanist!) forget it. There are no "lost souls," waiting to be
found, in this community. For the masochistically inclined, we suggest
self-flagelation. It costs less disk space, is probobly more satisfying, and
is certainly less offensive to the general public...


Response:

I equate the preaching Christian with the Satanist by virtue of their
adversarialism.  Yes, they lack the important values of individual choice
and free thought, but you might cease argumentation against them, welcome
them as brothers (most of them are sex-starved men), and instruct them
in the ways of pure Satanism.  Perhaps that is what you are doing here
after all.   Then again, alot of what I see here and in alt.atheism
is simple, reactionary rhetoric.  The sincere people who wish to
learn about Satanism are pummelled into retreat by the volume (in intensity
and bandwidth) of verbal diarrhea.


Scott:

otherwise;
GROWL! BOOGA BOOGA! 
HASTUR ASTAROTH LEVAITHAN ISHTAR!!!!!!!!!
XILKA XILKA!
BESA BESA!
  
go away already...


Response:

As I said, I think that this ought be a newsgroup for remedial thinking.
Let the preaching Christians in, don't respond to their prods regarding
the 'evils of Satanism', show them a FAQ which addresses these concerns,
and then get into some serious discussions about the nature of Satanism
today, how Satanism affects your lives, what different flavors of it
there are, how the SATANIST distinguishes hirself (if she does) from
other religions, etc.  etc.  I thought the thread on 'coming out of
the closet' was a good idea, but I haven't read it yet.


Scott:

well, comments?
definately got to have something like this in a FAQ
(alt.pagan & alt.magick have one I believe)


Response:

Alt.pagan tends to be one step above alt.atheism.3.  Most 'pagans'
are too reactionary or step all over one another attempting to separate
themselves from the NEW manifestation of the Martyrdom Cult - Satanists.

Alt.magick is MUCH more together, since it separates itself from religion
completely and tends toward an art and/or science discussion.  In other
words, it is largely technical with theoretical spicing.  If it gets too
theoretical people get bored or upset rather quickly.

I think some really good stuff is being discussed here in creating a FAQ,
mostly because the Satanists are now discussing their own subject for
a change, rather than attempting to flame off the 'adversary'. ;>


Thyagi
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, I am a Martyr.  I'm a Black Mage, a Satanist, a Witch and a Christian.
I don't know enough about the Judaic path to adopt its label. ;>