HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: kahn@emav131.webo.dg.com (Mike Kahn)
Subject: Re: American Flag Disposal
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 92 17:05:02 GMT
Distribution: usa
Reply-To: kahn@emav131.webo.dg.com (Mike Kahn)
Organization: Data General Corporation, Westboro, MA

In article <66315@hydra.gatech.EDU>, gt6065a@prism.gatech.EDU (Clifford
Edgar Johnson) writes:
>   In our troop, we had a special campfire ceremony in which the flag--which
> had outlived its glory--was torn into strips (each strip was either a red or
> white stripe or the blue field which was kept in its entirety).  As the 
> Scoutmaster cut the flag, he explained--or reemphasized what the Scouts 
> should already know--about the meaning of each part of the flag (symbolism,
> etc.).  Each piece of the flag was handed to a scout.  After a period of 
> "meditation", or simply time to think about the meaning of Old Glory, the
> scouts tossed his piece of the flag into the fire.  Also in this type of 
> ceremony lies the opportunity to discuss some of the history of the flag.
> The entire ceremony is done in a very respectful way, although the Scout-
> master had to explain to some of the younger scouts in more detail that 
> the ceremony is not a desecration.  I'm not sure, but I think that there 
> may be some kind of ceremony outlined in "Woods Wisdom" (?) or some other
> book which outlines different ceremonies and activities.
>   I think the net would benefit from other input about types of ceremonies 
> that others have performed in their troops.
> 
> Cliff
> 
> -- 
> Clifford Edgar Johnson
> Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
> uucp:	  ...!{decvax,hplabs,ncar,purdue,rutgers}!gatech!prism!gt6065a
> Internet: gt6065a@prism.gatech.edu

I think that all that is "officially" written about flag disposal is that it
be done in a fitting ceremony - ususally by burning (or words to that effect).
At the camp that I used to work at we usually held a ceremony at one of our
weekly campfires in which we would talk about the history and symbolism of
the flag and then in what was usually a moving tribute the flag would be 
burned to close the fire before scout vespers.
Incidentally - speaking of that camp - are there any other Curtis S. Read
Reservation alumni out there?  I was at Buckskin in 84 and 85.  I would love
to hear from you via e-mail if there are.

MIKE KAHN -------  kahn@emav131.webo.dg.com
EAGLE SCOUT
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: johnw@psychnet.psychol.utas.edu.au (John Wanless)
Subject: HELP- History of Scout Promise  
Organization: Psychology Department, University of Tasmania
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 22:36:27 GMT

To fellow Scouters,
		I have a friend completing his Wood Badge as a Venturer 
Leader and as part of his project he has to give the history of how the 
Scout Promise came about & when in time. Their semms to be plenty of 
information on how the Scout Laws were evolved but not the promise. He has 
been through many earlier books to no avail. This is all that is needed to 
complete his project.I know the promise varies slightly around the world but 
the fundamentals must be the same.
 Can any one out there help with this 
please & email me a reply & I will hand it on to him as he is not accessible 
via email.With thanks from,
John Wanless
Venturer Leader
1st Blackmans Bay Scout Group
Hobart, Tasmania Australia 
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: kadie@herodotus.cs.uiuc.edu (Carl M. Kadie)
Subject: Re: BofA thinks the BSA allows gay scouts
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept. of Comp. Sci., Urbana, IL
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 16:22:41 GMT

Here is the Bank of America press release:

( BW)(BANK-OF-AMERICA)(BAC) Boy Scouts eligible for BankAmerica
contributions

   Business/News Editors

   SAN FRANCISCO--(BUSINESS WIRE)--BankAmerica Corporation said today
that, as a result of a clarification of the membership policy of the
Boy Scouts of America, the organization would once again be eligible
for charitable donations.

   BankAmerica said that its understanding, based on communications
which it initiated with the national leadership of the organization,
is that the opportunity to join the Boy Scouts of America is open to
all boys who subscribe to the Scout oath and law, Cub Scout promise or
Explorer code (Exploring includes teenage girls).

   BankAmerica's contributions policies allow it to make donations
only to those organizations that provide full access and equal
opportunity to all members of the class that the organization is
designed to serve.

   Boy Scouts of America, being open to all boys, which is the classit
is designed to serve, meets the bank's contributions criteria.  The
bank said it understands the Scouting organization's requirement and
necessity to set guidelines for those qualified to serve as adult
leaders.  The Boy Scouts' eligibility for charitable contributions
from BankAmerica is determined by its policy regarding youth
membership.

   ``For over half a century, Bank of America has been a friend and
supporter of the Boy Scouts,'' said Executive Vice President Donald A.
Mullane, chairman of the BankAmerica Foundation.  ``We're pleased to
have reached this understanding that will allow that support to
continue and be consistent with the corporation's long-held belief
inequal opportunity.''

   CONTACT:  Bank of America Corporate Public Relations

          Peter Magnani, 415/953-2418
          John Keane, 415/622-2773

--
Carl Kadie -- kadie@cs.uiuc.edu -- University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Xref: sparky rec.scouting:2520 alt.discrimination:3929 chi.general:822 alt.atheism:15616 alt.politics.homosexuality:5470
From: kadie@herodotus.cs.uiuc.edu (Carl M. Kadie)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting,alt.discrimination,chi.general,alt.atheism,alt.politics.homosexuality
Subject: Re: BofA and UW can now support discrimination against blacks and Jews
Date: 22 Aug 92 15:56:40 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept. of Comp. Sci., Urbana, IL

palane@iastate.edu (Paul A. Lane) writes:

[...]
>Point 1: BSA has ALWAYS been an organization with religous ties. Any idiot
>could figure that out from the start. If you ever attended a meeting, you'd
>note that they meet in churches.
[...]

Apparently the United Way chapters just figured.

Perhaps they thought that scouts could omit "Duty to God" for reasons
of conscience. This has precedent. Here in the U.S, the "under God" is
optionally at a public school in the Pledge of Allegiance. The
Presidential "Oath" can be a Presidential "Affirmation" according to
the Constitution (and similarly with virtually all legal oaths).
According to a Girl Scout spokeswomen Thelma Walker (mentioned in the
same newspaper article), the GS "never discriminate against anyone on
the basis of these private matters." I doubt even the Boy Scouts would
require a Unitarian, Buddhist, or Hindu scout to say "Duty to God", if
the scout said that his church/temple doesn't teach of a single "God".
Internationally, many other scout groups, especially in the Far East
make the scout religious oath optional.

On the other hand, perhaps the United Way chapters just didn't think
about it at all.

In any case, meeting in a church is not definitive. The BSA doesn't
require that you belong to that church (or any church). Moreoever, not
all BSA troops meet in churches. Finally, I've voted in churches for
years; that doesn't mean that voting in my town has a religious test.

- Carl

--
Carl Kadie -- kadie@cs.uiuc.edu -- University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
From: kati@glnserv.UUCP (Lady Dragon)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: Need Service Project Ideas for Brownie and Junior Age Girls
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 92 06:43:13 CDT
Organization: Vermi-net, Houston, Tx. 77098

apm@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (anne.pida.mellen) writes:
> Any other ideas will be welcome, especially aimed at the 2nd grade
> troop since no other parent of girls in that troop have any ideas
> and also none have previous girl scout troop experience.
> thanks
> Anne Mellen
Our San Jacinto Council gave us a service calendar:
September:
adopt a grandparent, send a card monthly
find out if your Service Unit Admin. needs assistance (babysit, rallies or
       clerical jobs)
apply for Cadette Event Planning Board
do a fire prevention program for day care center
conservation project at camp
October:
donate to the JLow World Frinedship Fund
help with United Way Campaign
adopt a Highway
help with Reading Week at the library
help tutor children in the basic R's
assist Traveler's Aid
work booth at school carnival
produce play for orphanage
pick up litter after community event
November:
honor vets at cemetary (11th)
help at the polls (baby sit, snacks, etc.)
decorate trays, cards, etc. for a nursing home, shelter, etc.
December:
collect/repair clothes/toys for needy families
deliver holiday treats to fire/police stations on holiday
recycle holiday cards/paste new message
January:
launch a community clean-up campaign
assist with recruitment rallies
apply for Senior Kick-off staff
accompany Daisy troop on field trip
watch another GS leader's children during her meeting
adopt another United Way agency & volunteer your time
plant a tree on Arbor day

that's half of it for now. the other half after I have my hot tea & wake
up!




* * email address: nuchat!xcluud!glnserv!kati * Houston, Texas, USA, Earth * *




Newsgroups: rec.scouting,alt.discrimination,chi.general,alt.atheism,alt.politics.homosexuality
From: palane@iastate.edu (Paul A. Lane)
Subject: Re: BofA and UW can now support discrimination against blacks and Jews
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames IA
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1992 04:54:16 GMT

In <1992Aug21.110428.10268@m.cs.uiuc.edu> kadie@herodotus.cs.uiuc.edu (Carl M. Kadie) writes:

>I am disgusted to read that the United Way of Suburban Chicago will
>now support racially and religiously discriminatory programs.
>According to Eric Zorn's column on August 16, the suburban United
>Way's new "antidiscrimination" policy says that groups "organized by,
>on behalf of, or to serve persons of a particular race, religion, sex,
>national origin" are now eligible for funding.

>The column says this change was made to allow funding of the Boy
>Scouts (who exclude gay and atheist boys). But thanks to the new
>policy, a KKK youth program designed to serve only white Christians is
>now eligible for United Way funding.

Point 1: BSA has ALWAYS been an organization with religous ties. Any idiot
could figure that out from the start. If you ever attended a meeting, you'd
note that they meet in churches.

Claiming that Jews are equivalent to atheists is morally reprehensible. Along
with Islam, Judaism and Christianity both come out of the Abrahamic tradition.
At least you could use a religion that is not tied to the Old Testament as
your example.

>Is it possible to create a policy that supports discrimination of
>atheists and gays but excludes discrimination of Jews and
>African-Americans? If not, should the BSA be excluded or should the
>KKK be included?

Easily. Athiesm is not merely not Christian. Stick to arguing about gays.
Your argument collapses when extended.

You evidently believe that no non-profit religious organization (or any
organization with religious ties) deserves any support from private busi-
ness (or, evidently, anyone else). Presumably, support for AA is out the
window. Catholic charities is quite obviously discrminatory. I imagine that
I could find dozens of organizations whose ties render them incompatible
with your standards. 

[There are also some distinct differences between being gay and being black,
but I do not wish to dilute my argument.]

Paul A. Lane
From: naraht@drycas.club.cc.cmu.edu (Randolph J. Finder)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: SCouting and the age of the scout
Date: 17 Aug 92 00:43:17 -0500
Organization: Carnegie Mellon Computer Club

Is the current age split in BSA OK?

When I was in Troop91, Taiwan District, Far East Council, we did a good deal
of camping with the Boy Scouts of China(ROC). (I believe the mainland is still
anti-scouting). The BSC had their scouts split by type into 8-10yrs old, 11-14
years old and 15-18 years old I believe. The 8-10 were close to our cub scouts
in program but the split of the older scouts seemed to give some advantages.

Leadership seemed to develop earlier(among the 11-14) possibly because
they had to lead their groups rather than depending on the older ones. 
The 15-18s were able to camp places and do things that they would not have
been able to do if younger scouts were along.

BSA has already split things somwhat with the overlap between Boy Scouts
and Exploring. Would making BSA and Exploring so that the ages did not overlap
and making up to First Class BSA awards and shifting Star Life and Eagle
to Exploring Badges perhaps be better.

I realize that this does tend to foul up all of those 14 yr old Eagle Scouts
out there. However I sometimes wonder if they contribute as much to
scouting and to themselves as some one who goes more slowly. 

I normally expect someone who has gotten all the way to eagle to have advanced
to higher leadership positions each time they advanced a rank. This to 
me shows one of two things, either they are in leadership positions over
people significanyly older than themselves or there is no one older
in the troopwhich puts you in a position of having an (11-14) group
whether you like it or not. 

The Eagle project also seems to require a level of maturity that 
I wonder how many 14 year olds have.

Comments.....


(naraht@drycas.club.cc.cmu.edu)	| Leadership,Friendship, and Service
(vri_rjfin@dmis.ha.osd.mil)	|          Alpha Phi Omega
(tnc!m0039@uunet.uu.net)	| National (Co-ed) Service Fraternity
"Service to others is the rent that we pay for living on the planet"(quote?)
From: kati@glnserv.UUCP (Lady Dragon)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: Scouting
Date: 17 Aug 92 14:35:21 GMT
Organization: Vermi-net, Houston, Tx. 77098

rchafetz@cephalo.neusc.bcm.tmc.edu (Ross Chafetz) writes:
> I think this group has lost that scouting spirit. :)
>
> Ross

Not all of us, Ross. Some of us are trying to exchange information and
have a good time too.

* * email address: nuchat!xcluud!glnserv!kati * Houston, Texas, USA, Earth * *
From: deitch@gisatl.fidonet.org (David Deitch)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: Levis Drops Boy Scouts...
Date: 15 Aug 92 19:13:12 GMT
Organization: Galaxy Information System (GIS) 1:133/411 Atlanta, Ga

Dateline Tue, 11/Aug92 12:18.
In , Carl M. Kadie of kadie@m.cs.uiuc.edu  wrote to All at 1:133/411,

 CMK> I thought a scout was suppose to be tolerant.

     That's not in the Scout Law, and definately not a trait of this newsgroup.

          David Deitch, (GIS) Atlanta



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INTERNET: deitch@gisatl.fidonet.org
Xref: sparky rec.scouting:2518 alt.discrimination:3928 chi.general:821 alt.atheism:15615 alt.politics.homosexuality:5469
From: lfoard@Turing.ORG (Lawrence C. Foard)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting,alt.discrimination,chi.general,alt.atheism,alt.politics.homosexuality
Subject: Re: BofA and UW can now support discrimination against blacks and Jews
Date: 22 Aug 92 15:17:24 GMT
Organization: The Turing Project, Charlottesville Virginia.

In article <palane.714459256@pv742b.vincent.iastate.edu> palane@iastate.edu (Paul A. Lane) writes:
>Claiming that Jews are equivalent to atheists is morally reprehensible. Along
>with Islam, Judaism and Christianity both come out of the Abrahamic tradition.
>At least you could use a religion that is not tied to the Old Testament as
>your example.

In the eye of a fundementalist Christian belief in Christ is all that
counts. 

>Easily. Athiesm is not merely not Christian. Stick to arguing about gays.
>Your argument collapses when extended.

The dispute is about the scouts religious and orientation based
discrimination, so I don't see why its inappropriate to include both.

>You evidently believe that no non-profit religious organization (or any
>organization with religious ties) deserves any support from private busi-
>ness (or, evidently, anyone else). 

Its up to the business to decide. Wells Fargo and Levi's have decided
not to support discrimination. BoA has been threatened into supporting
it again.

For some reason it has not been reported in the newspapers, but a bill
was introduced in congress that would require Wells Fargo and Levi's to
support the boyscouts or have all federal money owed them held....

>[There are also some distinct differences between being gay and being black,
>but I do not wish to dilute my argument.]

Gay's can hide more easily, that doesn't make requiring people to hide
right.


-- 
>>Unix/C Contract worker available 5 years C/unix work experience<<  ______
Available for Telecommuting/Travel and contracts on the T Line       \    /
in the Boston MA area. Send me e-mail for a copy of my Resume.        \  /
       -- VWIS 508-793-9568 (2400 baud), Linux support BBS.--          \/
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: brunner@crchh447.bnr.ca (James Brunner)
Subject: Scout Oath/Promise & Scout Law - Multinational!
Reply-To: brunner@crchh447.bnr.ca (James Brunner)
Organization: Bell-Northern Research, Richardson, Tx
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 19:09:58 GMT

After following the thread "HELP - History of Scout Promise", I found the
multi-national differences in the scout oath (or promise) and the scout law
very interesting.  I have been collecting these and will post a summary.

Please e-mail me the Oath/Promise and Law from your country.  So far, I have:
	Australia (promise only - missing law)
	South Africa
	UK
	United States
-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jim Brunner - (brunner@bnr.ca)
All opinions are my own and have nothing whatsoever to do with BNR, NT,
NTI, Bell Canada, or any of the BCE corporations or affiliates.
From: bkgray@Chaos.mcs.kent.edu (Brian Gray)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: NOAC & WOA-TV
Date: 20 Aug 92 21:13:44 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Kent State University





Did you go to NAOC-92 at Knoxville?  If so, I've got a question for you...

Did you hear about WOA-TV?  Did you see any of the broadcasts?  Most of
them?  What did you think?  Did you see anything there that you didn't
see somewhere else at the conference?

Well, maybe more than ONE question.  But if you were there, your honest
answer is important to me (even if it is "What's WOA-TV?").  Please
respond via e-mail to bkgray@mcs.kent.edu.  Include your age and lodge
affiliation, too.


Thanks.


Brian Gray
Marnoc Lodge #151
Great Trail Council
Akron, Ohio
From: kadie@dante.cs.uiuc.edu (Carl M. Kadie)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Anyone else get a Stan-o-gram?
Date: 19 Aug 92 21:34:20 GMT
Article-I.D.: m.1992Aug19.213420.11726
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept. of Comp. Sci., Urbana, IL

Did anyone else get a note from Stanley M. Krieger asking them to take
their "political agenda off of rec.scouting"?

Sorry Mr. Krieger, discussion of the BSA's membership and fundraising
policies are well within the scope of this free forum. I shall
continue to speak freely.

- Carl



--
Carl Kadie -- kadie@cs.uiuc.edu -- University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
From: frenchs@forsan.enet.dec.com (Semper in excernere)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: Scoutin past
Date: 14 Aug 92 14:14:35 GMT
Reply-To: frenchs@forsan.enet.dec.com ()
Distribution: usa
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation


Memories...

Left handed screw drivers (for left handed screws of course)
Sky hooks
Elbow grease
A long weight (wait)

Simon
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: American Flag Disposal
From: jgcombs@uceng.UC.EDU (Joseph Combs)
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 15:24:49 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: College of Engineering, University of Cincinnati

In cleaning out the storage shed where I work my boss found a couple of
tattered old American flags. She asked if our troop could take care of 
disposing of them in a fit manner.  Is there anyone out there who could 
either post or e-mail me the proper procedure for destroying an American
flag ?

                                            Thanks,
					      Joe

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Joe Combs                          |jgcombs@uceng.uc.edu                   |
| ASM Troop 24, Dan Beard Council    |                                       |
| Cincinnati, Ohio                   |   I'm still working on a quote        |
| Eagle Class of 1990                |                                       |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: brunner@crchh447.bnr.ca (James Brunner)
Subject: Re: HELP- History of Scout Promise  
Reply-To: brunner@crchh447.bnr.ca (James Brunner)
Organization: Bell-Northern Research, Richardson, Tx
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 15:05:09 GMT

In article <johnw.5.714204383@psychnet.psychol.utas.edu.au>, johnw@psychnet.psychol.utas.edu.au (John Wanless) writes:
|> the Scout promise as we in Australia know it is as follows,
|> On my honour,
|> I promise that I will do my best,
|> To do my duty to my God and
|> To the Queen of Australia,
|> To help other people,and
|> To live by the Scout Law.

Interesting.  In the U.S. it is (please excuse punctuation):

On my honor, I will do my best, to do my duty,
to God and my country,
to help other people at all times,
to keep myself physically fit, mentally awake, and
morally straight.

As far as history goes, you may have to find variations on a per country basis.
-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jim Brunner - (brunner@bnr.ca)
All opinions are my own and have nothing whatsoever to do with BNR, NT,
NTI, Bell Canada, or any of the BCE corporations or affiliates.
From: naraht@drycas.club.cc.cmu.edu
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: BSAvoting structure
Date: 14 Aug 92 03:17:45 -0500
Organization: Carnegie Mellon Computer Club

Does anyone know what level of pressure that there was or squawks within BSA
 when the idea came up to have women in BSA (in the explorers)?


On another topic: Who has the true decission making power in BSA. Who are the 
"shareholders". Certainly not the scouts themselves and I don't remember my 
parents ever voting on anything. Is it the sponsorring organizations?
I was a boy and cub scout for a total of 10 years and I have no Idea?
Does anyone know how the voting sttructure works? For instance are council
executives elected from below or appointed from above?

I'm just wondering how many peoples minds would have to change for any of
this bigotry to go away?


If it is a question of whether BSA has taken federal funds for things,
I can give a definite example. Far east council has one of its summer
camps on the military base @ okinawa and we got certain things for free 
from the US military. I don't have specific details but would be shocked
this was not true elsewhere.

Randy Finder
(naraht@drycas.club.cmu.edu)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting