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Date:         Tue, 10 Nov 1992 10:46:08 -0400
From:         Rick George <RIGEORGE@VASSAR.BITNET>
Subject:      Speaking of getting weirder...

Truly astonishing events over the weekend here in New York:  Sol
Wachtler, Chief Judge of the New York Court of Appeals (the highest
court in New York) is chained to a bed in the psychiatric ward of
a hospital on Long Island under a suicide watch and under arrest
for trying to blackmail his former lover.

The treetops version of the story is that Wachtler and Joy Silverman
were hanging out on that cheatin' side of town when she decided to
end their affair.  For the next year or so, Wachtler sent her
threatening notes, called her with threats, and sent sexually explicit
cards to Silverman's 14-year old daughter (along with a condom).  80
F.B.I. agents busted the Judge on the L.I.E. Saturday afternoon after
he had picked up $20,000 that Silverman had sent in exchange for
alleged photos of her and her new boyfriend.

Pretty much a career stopper for Wachtler.  He's a Republican (a liberal,
Rockefeller-style Republican) who was appointed to the state's top
judicial position by Mario Cuomo.  He was mentioned as a G.O.P.
candidate for governor in 1990 and was a name that kept coming up
as people discuss possible challengers to Cuomo in 1994.  Now he'll
be lucky if he can avoid the slammer (the crimes of which he's
accused carry mandatory jail time).

He's obviously a sick puppy and in need of help.  He clearly did not
need Silverman's money (he and Silverman are step-cousins and the
family has a lot of money).  The speculation is that he was trying to
scare her enough so that she would need him to protect her.  Sounds
like he made it pretty easy for the Feds to track him--he used the
payphones right near his house to make calls (as well as the telephone
at a hotel in Reno at which he was staying for a conference, the telephone
at a hospital where he was staying, that type of thing).

This has sent shock waves through the state political scene.  No one seems
quite sure how to react.  Wowsa...

...Rick
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Date:         Fri, 13 Nov 1992 12:49:21 -0400
From:         The Integral Differential <DEMON@DESIRE.WRIGHT.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Brett
Comments: To: POLITICS@OHSTVMA.ACS.OHIO-STATE.EDU

>          What motivated you to state 'i think you mean what you want
>          him to be?'  I have no idea what I want my 2 year old son
>          to be.  40 years ago, effort, hard work, skill and knowledge
>          _did_ earn its rewards.  They do not now!  I too have been
>          privledged....i was able to get a masters degree by age of 21
>          and have a well paying and comfortable job.  But I really
>          believe that I have been sold a bill of goods by the
>          previous generation.  I know very few people who are able to
>          live the lifestyle I am able to provide my wife (who quit
>          her wage-earning job two years ago) and son.

        Forty years from now what we want (say: no debt, cleaner environment,
etc.) may be irrelevant.  Forty years ago the list might have been: defeat
communism, nuclear power, space travel....
        The world is going to change so much in 40 years that I wouldn't feel
comfortable in setting firm guidelines about where we should be then.

>          I believe most people today are victims of a society that
>          pretended too long to believe in what is now obviously false.

        Which is?

Brett'
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Date:         Tue, 10 Nov 1992 09:42:00 EST
From:         JCOCURUL@DREW.BITNET
Subject:      Re: abortion (was Calooh! Callay!)
Comments: To: politics@ohstvma.bitnet

In article <tfilt381872@drew.edu>, erteltsa@ALPHA.HENDRIX.EDU writes:
> NO, women are JUST AS LIKELY TO DIE FROM ILLEGAL ABORTIONS AS THEY ARE FROM
> LEGAL ONE. This is documented proof. When abortion was legalized in 1973, ther
   e
> was ONLY A DECREASE OF 15 DEATHS from illegal abortions to legal abortions.
>  Thus,
> legal abortions do NOT iundicate safer abortions. In additions, thousands of
> women have suffered from the ill physical and psychological effects of abortio
   n.
> --Steve
>
besides the fact that deaths from illegal abortions weren't actually
well documented, plus considering the harm of them to the reproduction
tract, I find this very hard to believe.  Where is it documented?  Any
nonpartisan location?  It is also a fact that the number of illegal
abortions wasn't that much less than the number of legal abortions,
especially in countries today that still have it illegal.

  -Joe
Organization: Queen's University at Kingston
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1992 19:17:20 EDT
From: andy <2893684@QUCDN.QueensU.CA>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Subject: Re: electoral collage and question from my 9-yr-old

In article <01GQVKW8AR4W000X0V@BENTLEY.BITNET>, CONWAY_O@BENTLEY.BITNET says:
>
>        While I support the electoral college myself, I asked my government
>teacher about changing it to popular vote. Although this might be a dumb
>reason
>not to change it, it gives you somthing to think about. He said "If we do that
>they that is the end of Federalism." He's right we can't abolish the main
>principle our country was founded on.
>        O.C.

Federalism is more important than democracy? In any case, your teacher is
wrong the principle of federalism is preserved a) by the requirement that
2/3 of the states approve constitutional amendments and b) the Senate

I would suggest that both these features are more important to federalism
than an undemocratic Electoral College.
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Date:         Wed, 4 Nov 1992 11:45:40 -0500
From:         MARTIN FOX <FOXML@RHODES.BITNET>
Subject:      Calooh! Callay!
Comments: To: politics@ohstvma.bitnet

  Forgive my chortling, but:

We've got Democrats in the White House.
We've got Democrats in the Congress.
We'll take care of the Supreme Court later.

  Wow.  It seems the nation hit itself in the collective forehead
today, saying "What the Hell were we doing 12 years ago?".  This is wonderful,
although I'm not sure we Democrats will know what to do now that we haven't
lost the election.  Congratulations to Clinton/Gore and their campaign.
  I'll agree that Bush's concession speech was prob. the best thing he's
done during this campaign.  During Quayle's concession speech, though,
someone yelled "Quayle, You suck!", which I found quite amusing.
  All this *and* we took Arizona.  I'm amazed.
  I'm also a bit ecstatic.  I'm
sure you can tell.
  Remember: Gore 2000!

-Martin
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X-VMS-Cc: JULIE
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Date:         Wed, 4 Nov 1992 15:01:00 EST
From:         Song Weaver <JULIE@DRYCAS.CLUB.CC.CMU.EDU>
Subject:      Re: "President Clinton"
Comments: To: POLITICS%OHSTVMA.BITNET@PSUVM.PSU.EDU

Brett:  I think Clarence Thomas lied to Congress when he said he had no
position on Roe V. Wade.  I _do_ believe that lying to Congress while
testifying under oath is a federal offense.  Furthermore, I haven't seen
any indication that Thomas is remotely qualified.

I already defended my views of Anita Hill to "T" so I won't do it again.

--Julie
From: mit2@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (MICHAEL ISAAC TEDESCO)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Subject: Re: Oliver North for Senate
Date: 11 Nov 92 14:32:22 GMT
Organization: Lehigh University

In article <01GQZH649V3K000WXI@drew.drew.edu>, PSICILIA@DREW.BITNET writes:
>You all may say what you wish about Iran-Contra and Bush's conduct,
>but the Republicans will get the last laugh when Oliver North is
>elected to the Senate for Virgina in 1994.
>
>Friends of mine from Virginia say that North looks like a probable
>candidate (Buchanan may also run).  Furthermore, the Republicans
>should be able to pick up that seat because the current Democratic
>holder of the seat (his name escapes my mind at this moment) probably
>will not run after his actions against Gov. Wilder.  Virginia is also
>basically a Republican state, strengthening North's odds.
>
>-Paul
>
    You seem to be very exited about the fact that a liar has a chance to be
elected to the Senate.   Why such enthusiasm?  Don't you think what Oliver
North did was wrong.  Let me remind you.  He helped sell arms to Iran (an
enemy of ours in the Middle East) without consent from congress.  Do you
think this is an honorable thing?  We'll see in 1994 whether or not Ollie gets
elected as Senator.   Hopefully the people of Virginia will remember exactly
what he did, and not what the Republicans have been feeding to the American
people.

--Mike
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Date:         Fri, 13 Nov 1992 11:42:00 EST
From:         linda <SABOE@VUVAXCOM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Draft Dodging Illegal?

i knew a guy, who when he was called for his physical, went on a diet of
feenamints.
he was exempted because he was too thin and in terrible health.
the night he was exempted he threw a big party with lots of food (mostly for
him).
he did serve feenamints in a candy bowl w/out telling anyone what they were.
-linda
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Date:         Tue, 10 Nov 1992 00:44:33 -0400
From:         The Integral Differential <DEMON@DESIRE.WRIGHT.EDU>
Subject:      Re: The legality of the income tax (was RE: Churches and Tax
              Exempt Status)
Comments: To: POLITICS@OHSTVMA.ACS.OHIO-STATE.EDU

>MikeM:
>        Julie poses an interesting question:
>
>>Another thing-- I actually may look this up today when I get to
>>campus if I have a chance between schoolwork-- but I am curious
>>about something:  Is federal income tax legal?  I was listening
>>to a talk show a few months ago which talked about the taxax code
>>and questioned the Federal Government's right to levy taxes on
>>personal income-- the idea was that PROFITS are taxable, but not
>>income. . . .
>
>        The text of Amendment XVI (1913), US Constitution:
>
>        "The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on
>        incomes, from whatever sources derived, without apportionment
>        among the several States, and without regard to any census or
>        enumeration."
>
>        Hope that helps.

	A note about this amendment.  There's a guy going around the country
who says he researched the issue and found out that many of the states that
are listed as passing this amendment either did it fraudulenty, or in at least
one case, actually voted against it.
	I don't know if this guy is akin to the 100MPG carburator people or
does have a real case.  I seem to remember Kentucky being one of the iffy
states.  Anyone from KY who can double check?

Brett'
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Date:         Sun, 8 Nov 1992 00:23:00 EST
From:         Song Weaver <JULIE@DRYCAS.CLUB.CC.CMU.EDU>
Subject:      Rush
Comments: To: POLITICS%OHSTVMA.BITNET@PSUVM.PSU.EDU

Personally, I think Rush Limbaugh is a liberal plant designed to make
Conservatives look really silly.

However, that is just an opinion.

--Julie
From: sbc3@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (SHAWN BRENDON CREWS)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Subject: Re: Calooh! Callay!
Date: 6 Nov 92 07:11:44 GMT
Organization: Lehigh University

In article <1992Nov6.052252.82541@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu>, sme3@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (SC
OTT MATTHEW ESTRIN) writes:
>In article <01GQSL7TBHGG9OE1DY@SSCVAX.CIS.MCMASTER.CA>, 8612775@SSCVAX.CIS.MCMA
S
>TER.CA (MIKE) writes:
>>>Pat Buchanan-- He'll do for America what he did for George Bush
>>
>>Bill Clinton--  He'll do for America what he did for Arkansas.
>>
>You mean unemployment will be down from the time that he takes office?
>I can live with that.
>
NO, I THINK HE MEANS EXACTLY WHAT ALBERT ECO-GEEK GORE SAID IN ONE OF HIS LAST
SPEECHES.  AT THE END OF JANUARY WE'LL BE SAYING, "FEAR IS UP, HOPE IS DOWN."

ACRONYM:
CLINTON = CKICKEN LICKIN' IDIOT NOW TAKING OVER NATION
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Date:         Wed, 11 Nov 1992 16:53:03 -0500
From:         STK1236@VAX003.STOCKTON.EDU
Subject:      Re: A Moronic Joke!
Comments: To: POLITICS@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu

KAT:

The joke is that you believe your IQ is higher than others because you disagree
with their statements.  I am well aware that people have the right to burn the
flag.  As an American, I realize that right now you can't take that freedom
away  from them.  It does sicken me though.  I also understand that the flag is
a symbol of what the US stands for.   In response to Linda's analogy of
 picture,no one died defending what that picture stood for.  Have you ever heard
 about
Iwo Jima?  Are those guys morons too, for dying to put up a piece of cloth?
Rich Dase pony%"stk1236vax003.stockton.edu"
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Organization: Queen's University at Kingston
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1992 01:12:14 EDT
From: andy <2893684@QUCDN.QueensU.CA>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Subject: Re: Poor losers!

In article <01GQTZWS5FPW0026R1@drew.drew.edu>, PSICILIA@DREW.BITNET says:
>        Most of us do not really care that Governor Clinton had an
>affair with Jennifer Flowers, the fact that he lied is what is so
>disturbing, and Bill Clinton slept with Flowers.  Then, can you

The fact that Bush lied about Iran/Contra doesn't disturb you?
From: erteltsa@ALPHA.HENDRIX.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Subject: Re: Calooh! Callay!
Date: 6 Nov 92 15:00:28 GMT
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Once again T. I challange you to prove conclusively how Pat Buchanan is
raacist, or shows and hatred towards any person(s). If you cannot do this
than yopur argument holds no water.
than your argument holds no water.
--Steve
From: erteltsa@ALPHA.HENDRIX.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Subject: Re: Calooh! Callay!
Date: 6 Nov 92 01:14:01 GMT
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Comments: To: POLITICS@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu

How can you say that the Pats solicited more votes for Marrou? Libertarians are
liberal socially and the Pats are ultra-conservative.
--Steve
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Date:         Sun, 8 Nov 1992 12:02:00 EST
From:         Song Weaver <JULIE@DRYCAS.CLUB.CC.CMU.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Pat Buchannan and ACT-UP/RI
Comments: To: POLITICS%OHSTVMA.BITNET@PSUVM.PSU.EDU

Paul:

The Pope urged Catholics in America to actively fight laws which prohibt
anti-gay legislation.  Furthermore, our own local Bishop Gelano of Rhode
Island insisted that to vote for Pro-Choice legislation was a mortal
sin.  Do you not conside that to be attempting to affect the body of
politics?  Bishop Gelano used his position in the Church as a power
base for influencing politics.  Now tell me how Rhode Island's Catholic
Diocese is eligible for tax exempt status.

--Julie
From: SABOE@VUVAXCOM.BITNET (linda)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Subject: our mailer fell down and it can't get up
Date: 6 Nov 92 21:40:00 GMT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Original_To:  POL

again. temple is down. villanova is down. sorta. up and down. place is a mess.

how's friday going?
beer countdown is just not the same w/out virtual feedback. so lonely.
*sigh*
well, don't mind me, i'm just overly sensitive.
think i'll leave 15 minutes early since it's not even a pay friday.

have a good wkend everyone....raise a virtual glass in my direction.

-linda
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Date:         Fri, 6 Nov 1992 14:33:00 EDT
From:         CLARK@EVMSVMS.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Potatoe

Andy:

        As much I love trashing lil' Danny boy, that comment about Latin in
Latin America is an urban legend - didn't happen.  MOST everything else we've
heard did happen, but not the Latin thing.  Keep up the good work, though -
the last thing this country needs is a repeat of the amnesia it suffered in
1968 - Nixon came back and we all forgot what a putz he had been - we have to
prevent "the new Quayle" from being a viable candidate again.

-T.
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Date:         Sat, 7 Nov 1992 12:52:00 EDT
From:         CLARK@EVMSVMS.BITNET
Subject:      RE: Pat Buchannan and ACT-UP/RI

reply to Paul's post:

>political reasons.  If one disapproves of a church then leave the
>church, don't try to reform it.  Martin Luther left.
>(rest of stuff about Patty-Patty puke-puke (complaints to Dana Carvey)deleted.
>
I know that my area of responsibility is 20th C America, so someone care to
help me out on this?  My church history reads that Luther was excommunicated -
for TRYING to reform the church.  (BTW, the next Council made about 93 of the
95 reforms).

Besides, History Czar, doesn't this constitute a reckless use of historical
analogy (that seems to have been incorrect) - using church history (Luther)
to make the case for love-it-or-leave-it politics?

-T.
Organization: York University
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Date:         Wed, 4 Nov 1992 18:21:57 EST
From:         MMORSE@YORKVM1.BITNET
Subject: RE: This "12 years" thing

David Clem finds the comparison of this 12 years with another to
be beyond reason..
1. Of course the "argument from analogy" is a well-known fallacy. But
I made no argument, save to simply point to the existence of similarity
altogether. Most of my points, you chose to ignore.
2. Those you did accept, you try to shift the responsibility for to the
congress. I would say that this very act is a demonstration of the amorality
which I think the R/B years have fostered. More than any concrete act (and
these were bad enough), what Reagan and Bush really did was to destroy the
belief in right and wrong, through their own example in word and deed. The
congress didn't pack the administration with criminal loonies like Watt,
Meese, and North; the congress didn't deregulate industries with wild
abandon; the congress didn't flout international law with the impudence of
a gangster; the congress didn't suggest with its every gesture that great
wealth is an end in itself, to be acquired by any means necessary. I don't
see how the leadership of R/B can be interpreted in any way consistent with
civilized morality; and, in that respect, it is comparable to the earlier
terribe time.
MWM
From: acm@Sun.COM (Andrew MacRae)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Subject: Re: Supreme Court Justice
Date: 13 Nov 92 02:09:29 GMT
Reply-To: acm@Sun.COM (Andrew MacRae)
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Mountain View CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: grendal.corp.sun.com

In article <POLITICS%92111213385390@OHSTVMA.ACS.OHIO-STATE.EDU>,         Jamie <PL436000@BROWNVM.BITNET> writes:
 > >From:         K=A*T <MEC038@UKCC.UKY.EDU>
 > >In an answer to the question of who would be appropriate for
 > >the Supreme Court, Clinton, I believe appearing on MTV, said
 > >that he thinks Cuomo would make an excellent Supreme Court
 > >justice.
 > 
 > That's very odd. What exactly are Cuomo's qualifications supposed
 > to be? I hope Clinton's advisors will come up with someone better.
 > (Clinton used to be a law professor! He should have better sense.)

Cuomo's qualifications are about the same as Earl Warren's were.

Some presidential ambitions (Warren ran in the Republican primaries
in 1952.  He was the leading contender against Eisenhower).  Governor
of the second most populated state (Warren was Gov. of California in
the early fifties).  One time lawyer before entering politics.

Tell me Jamie, do you feel that Earl Warren, the leader of the court
that introduced so many of the legalisms that the conservatives hate
today was qualified to be Chief Justice?

If you look back at the history of the court, you will find example
after example of men (not being sexist here, just acurate) who probably
were not 'qualified' yet went on to become quite respected.  Check out
the book "The Brethren" by Woodward (or is it by Bernstein?).  While
mostly about the court of ten years ago, it does give a good background
on some of the past judges.

						Andrew MacRae
						
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Date:         Wed, 4 Nov 1992 16:33:27 -0500
From:         KILBURN@WVSVAX.WVNET.EDU
Subject:      Re: "President Clinton"

erteltsa (sp??) wrote:

>See my other reply. Also, my jokes are NOT sexist. Get a grip!

It's quittin' time, so I'll try to keep this short.  Maybe the bit about
Chelsea wasn't *your* joke.  Fine.  It was still sexist.  Taking offense at
sexist jokes does not indicate a lack of humor -- any more than taking
offense at jokes built around racial/ethnic stereotypes does.  Honestly --
why should I laugh at something that demeans me?

Maybe I'm just getting old, but I find myself increasingly *unwilling* to
lighten up when presented with evidence of the ways in which women are
stereotyped.  I don't like it in sitcoms, I don't like it in movies or the
print media, I *really* don't like it in country music ( :)), and I don't
like it in jokes.

And yet, my students always congratulate me on my sense of humor.  Jamie
can tell you that I still giggle over "p".

Sigh.  Julie et al., how am I doing so far??

Kerry
off to check out the big bottle that I suspect is vodka -- a belated
housewarming gift that will go down real well on a cold and gloomy night :)
From: jse2@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (JASON STEVEN EUCULANO)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Subject: Socialism in the White House
Date: 6 Nov 92 01:08:57 GMT
Organization: Lehigh University

If anyone cares to, examine the similarities between Mr. Clinton and Francois
Mitterand the French Socialistic leader.  It didn't work in France, Britain,
or the ex-Soviet Union.  What makes Americans think it'll work here?  Everyone
else is imitating us so why should we set America back in history?  If you
want to send a package across the country overnight would you give it to the
US Postal Service?  Would you like to be placed on a waiting list for surgery?
If you went to a Private University/College why did you do so?  Should we have
more governmental expenditures and increase our debt, or should we trim the
government so it can act if there is a need, not just for the sake of
controlling our lives.
                                Jayce

                                
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Date:         Tue, 10 Nov 1992 11:31:46 PST
From:         "(Jonathan Fisher)" <jfisher@NETXWEST.COM>
Subject:      Re: transition -- the lighter side
Comments: To: POLITICS@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu

> >Does anyone else remember how Nancy Reagan wanted to Carters to move out
> >early so she could "redecorate?"
>
> 	No.
>
> Brett'
>
Yes.

Jonathan
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