HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: hades@coos.dartmouth.edu (Hades)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.arts.manga vs. rec.arts.comics.manga
Date: 13 Apr 92 21:31:06 GMT
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH

pckyip@athena.mit.edu (Patrick C Yip) writes:

>In article <6352@lib.tmc.edu> jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard) writes:
>>
>>I suspect that you'll get a lot of NO votes if you stick with rec.arts.manga
>>as the name. Is it that important to you to salve your (mistaken) feeelings

>I hope that won't be somebody creating multiple accounts and post 100 votes
>from them. Tell me how to check such situation. And I esepecially want to
>know how hard it is to detect such situation if he/she is a sysadmin, which
>means he/she subjects to no scrutinization by any other.

    Patrick, if you find 100 votes from any single site, then you
obviously need to due a good level of cheking into those votes. There
are a number of ways to do this, you might want to inquire on news.admin
for some of the more popular meathods...

--
-Hades  (Brian V. Hughes)   | Common Taxpayer Q&A: Q. If I use the 1040 how
 hades@Coos.Dartmouth.Edu   | do I indicate my preference for the Elvis stamp?
 Mac Database Developer     | A. You write THIN ELVIS or FAT ELVIS in the box
 Dartmouth Medical School   | "Spouse's Social Security #." -Dave Barry
Xref: sparky news.groups:9860 rec.arts.comics:12598 alt.manga:1241
From: jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.arts.manga vs. rec.arts.comics.manga
Date: 13 Apr 1992 16:06:59 GMT
Organization: UT Health Science Center Houston

In article <axolotl.703132908@syzygy> axolotl@socs.uts.edu.au writes:
>jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard) writes:
> >Newsgroup names are not just for those who know about the subject of the
> >group. They are also for those who know nothing about the group.
>Yes.  However, that's no excuse to force an inaccurate name on the
>proposed group, simply because many Usenet users are unfamiliar with
>the proposed subject matter.

What's inaccurate about describing manga as a form of comics, other than your
bruised ego?

That question may seem harsh, but it's getting more and more to be the central
question here. The vocal manga fans have sworn up and down that manga are not
comics. The rest of us, without axes to grind, don't see it that way. Are
manga not stories told by a combination of words and (somewhat stylized) art,
where both components are essential to the story? If not, how? If so, they're
comics. 

Just as importantly, someone who doesn't know what manga are will have a clue
from the name rec.arts.comics.manga. They'll get no clue at all from
rec.arts.manga. Do you want to get flooded with "What's a manga?" postings?

>The -connotations- of putting manga under comics are only one small
>facet of the naming discussion.  If you vote NO on this basis, you aren't
>helping Usenet, you're hammering another nail into its coffin.

Bwahahahaha.
Imminent death of Usenet predicted.

Those connotations in your mind are the major reason I've seen from you and
the other manga fans for resisting the .comics part of the name. That those
connotations are incorrect seems to completely escape you.

>If anyone on news.groups remains uninformed on the nature of manga
>(ie. all manga, not the tiny subset of comic adaptations which a lot
>of mistaken people seem to be referring to), you should:
>     - post or email about specific uncertainties;
>  or - abstain from voting.

Sorry...the reason that new group proposals get discussed in news.groups is so
that the net as a whole, not just the fans of one particular thing, have the
option to discuss and vote. You're trying to disenfranchise non-manga fans,
and that's not how it works.
-- 
Jay Maynard, EMT-P, K5ZC, PP-ASEL | Never ascribe to malice that which can
jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu      | adequately be explained by a .sig virus.
         "Grow up children. Purchase lives." -- Geoff Collyer
From: sloane@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu (Bob Sloane)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: <None>
Date: 6 Apr 92 15:37:31 CDT
Followup-To: news.groups
Reply-To: SLOANE@UKANVAX.BITNET
Organization: University of Kansas Academic Computing Services

In article <1992Mar31.120719.25348@uunet.uu.net>,
 dave@elxr.Jpl.Nasa.Gov (Dave Hayes) writes:
> Guidelines Issue
> ----------------
> According to the "letter" of the Guidelines, there are supposed to be
> four separate votes on each newsgroup. However, due to the nature of
> these groups and the sensitivity of the topic, it is apparent that
> ALL of these groups must be created or NONE of them should be.

Fine.  Hold four separate votes as per the guidelines, but if any of
them fails, then don't create any of the groups.  To the best of my
knowlege there is nothing in the guidelines that says a group MUST be
created if its vote passes.  If no one sends out a newgroup, then the
guidelines have been followed, the groups don't get created and
everyone is satisfied.
-- 
USmail: Bob Sloane, University of Kansas Computer Center, Lawrence, KS, 66045
E-mail: sloane@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu, sloane@ukanvax.bitnet, AT&T: (913)864-0444
From: thwang@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Tommy Hwang)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: manga
Date: 10 Apr 92 04:54:01 GMT
Organization: Purdue University Computing Center

In article <ku9rkaINNhot@exodus.Eng.Sun.COM> jkim@jingoro.Eng.Sun.COM () writes:
>Is it ok with everyone to just vote in the strawpoll, and
>see the results and then go from there?
>
>I'm getting tired of all this, and I'm sure you are also.

     Agreed!!!  Maybe this can calm us down a little.  I personally
will retire if the rest is willing.

                                                      -TKH '92


---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
      "Zu dem Tag wollte Ich zurueckkehren."  (emphasis on 'to that day')
      "Ich wollte zu dem Tag zurueckkehren."  (emphasis on 'want')
 "Ich wuenschte Ich koennte zu dem Tag zurueckkehren." (emphasis on 'wish')
                                                 -both KOR movie title.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: news.groups,news.newusers.questions,news.sysadmin,bit.admin
From: jik@athena.mit.edu (Jonathan I. Kamens)
Subject: Re: LISTSERV mailing lists?
Followup-To: bit.admin
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1992 15:42:23 GMT

In article <1992Apr5.662233.t0NjU@undr.org> seanp@undr.org (Sean Petty) writes:

	   I have recently started a mailing list which has grown much
	   larger than I thought it ever would, and I am finding out that
	   it is getting to be too much for my small system to handle.  I
	   have been looking for other options, and one of which I have
	   found is that of a BITNET LISTSERV mailing list.  What I am in
	   need of is some information on how I can aquire one, whom I have
	   to talk to, etc.

The best plce to ask this question is in the bit.admin newsgroup.  If
your site doesn't get the bit.admin newsgroup, then you can probably
find out more by sending mail to news-admin@auvm.american.edu or
news-adm@auvm.bitnet.

I got this information by reading this posting:

Subject: NetNews/Listserv Gateway Policy
Newsgroups: bit.admin,news.answers

Available in the indicated USENET newsgroup(s), or via anonymous ftp from
pit-manager.mit.edu (18.172.1.27) in the file:

/pub/usenet/news.answers/bit/policy

Also available from mail-server@pit-manager.mit.edu by sending a mail message
containing:

send usenet/news.answers/bit/policy

Send a message containing "help" to get general information about the
mail server.

-- 
Jonathan Kamens						jik@MIT.Edu
MIT Information Systems/Athena		    Moderator, news.answers
    (Send correspondence related to the news.answers newsgroup
	{and ONLY correspondence related to the newsgroup}
		 to news-answers-request@MIT.Edu.)
Date: 17 Apr 92 07:05:22 GMT
From: axolotl@socs.uts.edu.au (Iain Sinclair)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: MANGA STRAW POLL: rec.arts.manga wins 98 - 51.
Reply-To: axolotl@socs.uts.edu.au
Organization: University of Technology, Sydney

scs@iti.org (Steve Simmons) writes:
 >The majority of votes on any poll come in during the first day or two
 >after people see the post.  This explains why r.a.m took an early lead
 >which eroded over time -- the alt.manga folks started voting first.

It's also possible that people increasingly preferred r.a.c.m simply
because they were increasingly afraid that rec.arts.manga wouldn't pass.


--
Iain Sinclair   axolotl@socs.uts.edu.au                             ne cede.
From: pac@cerc.wvu.wvnet.edu (Michael Packer)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD:  misc.jobs.offered reorganization
Date: 13 Apr 92 19:16:26 GMT

root@dogear.spk.wa.us (Bob Kirkpatrick) writes:
: This RFD supercedes the previous issue, which did not address all of the
: proposed changes.
: 
: REMOVE: misc.jobs.offered
: 
: CREATE: misc.jobs.entry    = positions offered to entrylevel applicants
:         misc.jobs.expert   = positions offered to the experienced
:         misc.jobs.recruit  = positions offered by recruitment agents
: 
: NOT AFFECTED: misc.jobs.contract, misc.jobs.wanted, misc.jobs.misc



	as someone else pointed out earlier i think this is a bad idea
because it just makes it more of a hassle for prospective employers to
determine where to post there job offers.


pac
--
DARPA Initiative in Concurrent Engineering ---- Phone 304 293 7226            =
INTERNET : pac@cerc.wvu.wvnet.edu                                             =
===============================================================================
"The world goes in circles, don't just sit there for the ride"--me            =
From: hades@coos.dartmouth.edu (Hades)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.arts.dragonlance
Date: 6 Apr 92 15:32:20 GMT
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH

EGIBBS@csci1.csci.unt.edu (Austin Gibbs) writes:

>Group: rec.arts.dragonlance
>Status: unmoderated

>Proposed Charter:
>   The Dragonlance series from TSR, the makers of the AD&D role-playing 
>system, has become a series with several books on the bestseller list. 
>There are many uses for a discussion group.
>   Testing new short stories on people already familiar with the dragonlance
>world of Krynn.
>   Discussing questions about the world of Krynn.
>   A place for DM's to exchange ideas on running campaigns in the 
>Dragonlance world.
>   Discussing new releases of Dragonlance books.
>This will be for serious discussions on these and other related topics. 

    Did this just come in from left field or what? All of this stuff
belongs in rec.games.frp. Then once the split happens, the campaign and
world specific discussions will happen in r.g.frp.dnd, and thecreative
stuff will go to the appropriate creative group.
    No matter how you want to look at this stuff, it is still AD&D and
there is certainly no way it will ever warrant its own newsgroup. I
haven't even seen and Dragonlance specific discussions in r.g.frp for
months, possibly over a year. Is there even a mailing list for
Dragonlance types, like there is for Forgotten Realms?
    
    Why are newsgroups coming out of nowhere these days? 
    Why ask why?
	Try UseNet Dry.

--
-Hades  (Brian V. Hughes)   | "When you get right down do it there is only
 hades@Coos.Dartmouth.Edu   |  one thing that matters here...
 Mac Database Developer     |                       I Have Mob Ties!"
 Dartmouth Medical School   |      -Mario Cuomo (played by Phil Hartman)
From: ghost@ra.nrl.navy.mil (G. Host)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: misc.jobs.offered reorganization
Date: 14 Apr 92 13:00:11 GMT
Reply-To: ghost@ra.nrl.navy.mil (G. Host)
Organization: Naval Research Laboratory, Washington, DC


> I STRONGLY RECOMMEND MODERATION of any job-offer groups to limit
> "noise" postings, and will vote for creation of such groups ONLY if
> they are moderated.

Ditto.

How many people are willing to bet there won't be a flood of inappropriate
postings in each of the groups, not even crossposted, if such
an unmoderated newsgroup breakup is accomplished?

If so I have some easy money assuming it passes.

What is involved in moderating and unmoderated newsgroup?

-- 
Glenn Host - Senior Systems Analyst (ghost@ra.nrl.navy.mil)
NRL Code 5800, 4555 Overlook Ave.; Washington, DC 20375   (202) 767-2046
12307 Tigers Eye Court ; Reston, VA 22091                 (703) 620-1141
From: twpierce@amhux1.amherst.edu (Tim Pierce)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: 2nd RFD: soc.personals.ads. etc....
Date: 4 Apr 92 15:25:38 GMT
Article-I.D.: amhux2.1992Apr4.152538.21542
Organization: Amherst College, Amherst, MA

In article <1992Apr3.181303.22410@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov writes:

>2) The moderator will be an automation, that is ALL articles that 
>comply with the subject line formats will be posted regardless of
>content. Period. 

So if you're doing that, why split the groups?  If you can be assured
that every message posted to soc.personals.ads will have the proper
subject line format, there is no extra utility gained in splitting
into msm, etc.  People who don't want to see some particular subset of
those posts can easily add the appropriate patterns to their KILL
files.

If your answer is that people might make their subject line "FSM" when
the content of their message is male-seeking-male, you're already not
guarding against that possibility.

-- 
____ Tim Pierce                / "Well, I've never been to heaven / but
\  / twpierce@amherst.edu      /  I've been to Oklahoma ..."
 \/ (BITnet: TWPIERCE@AMHERST) /    -- Three Dog Night
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: conty@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (Conty)
Subject: Re: Some comments on this rec.arts.{whatever}.manga
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1992 04:44:00 GMT

In article <ku9qooINNhlg@exodus.Eng.Sun.COM>, jkim@jingoro.Eng.Sun.COM (Jun Kim) writes:
> In article <1992Apr9.233526.16212@cbnewsl.cb.att.com> conty@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (Conty) writes:
> >
> >Fact 3: "Comics" is the English word for comic books, regardless of the
> >	country of origin.
> >
> >Fact 4: "Manga" is the Japanese word for comic books, regardless of the
> >	country of origin.  "Manga" is also used in the West as fandom
> >	jargon to refer to Asian comic books.
> >
> 
> No one, I believe, is arguing with the dictionary definition of comics
> as given in fact 3.  What I am saying is that the way it is used in 
> Internet, and even colloquially, strongly correlates it to western 
> sequential art.

And I disagree.  Later in my article, I mentioned that manga
has been, is, and will be discussed in rec.arts.comics.  It is not discussed
much NOW in rec.arts.comics because of the existence of rec.arts.anime and
alt.manga.

If a rec.arts. newsgroup for manga is chosen, the logical choice would be
rec.arts.comics.manga.  As I already mentioned, manga used to be discussed
in rec.arts.comics before rec.arts.anime even existed, so the discussion
on manga would, in fact, return to the original hierarchy where it existed.

> Furthermore, no one is saying that the discussion of Japanese 
> sequential art is banned from r.a.comics.  The point was that r.a.comics 
> is not a useful forum for the discussion of Japanese sequential art.  

Agreed.  Japanese comics deserve their own newsgroup.

> R.a.anime is a better forum than r.a.comics.

And rec.arts.comics.manga (a NEW newsgroup) is a better forum than r.a.anime.
-- 
			    E n r i q u e  C o n t y
			      jester@ihlpl.att.com
		   Disclaimer:  You're not dealing with AT&T.
From: thwang@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Tommy Hwang)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.arts.manga
Date: 9 Apr 92 16:26:50 GMT
Article-I.D.: mentor.44611
Organization: Purdue University Computing Center

In article <axolotl.702785613@syzygy> axolotl@socs.uts.edu.au writes:
>wald@theory.lcs.mit.edu (David Wald) writes:
>
>Well, that's certainly true.  But how often are charters respected?

     As far as I know, NEVER. :-) :-)

                                    -TKH '92
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: ckd@eff.org (Christopher Davis)
Subject: Re: rec.arts.frp.misc
Organization: Electronic Frontier Foundation Tech Central
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1992 16:30:18 GMT

I still think that if you're going to reorganize rec.games.frp, you may
as well make the name (1) more inclusive and (2) more obvious to the
non-TLA crowd.

I'd suggest rec.games.role-playing.*, though rec.games.roleplay.* would
work also.
--
Christopher Davis <ckd@eff.org> |    ECONOMIC OBSERVATIONS DEPARTMENT
System Manager & Postmaster     |  "There's always something going out of
Electronic Frontier Foundation  |      business in Central Square."
+1 617 864 0665  NIC: [CKD1]    |   -Rita Marie Rouvalis <rita@eff.org>
From: jkim@jingoro.Eng.Sun.COM (Jun Kim)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.arts.manga vs. rec.arts.comics.manga
Date: 8 Apr 92 17:29:23 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Mt. View, Ca.
NNTP-Posting-Host: jingoro

In article <1nqjzdk@lynx.unm.edu> lazlo@triton.unm.edu (Lazlo Nibble) writes:
>
>Manga are not "equivalent to" comics, they are *a kind of* comics. To use
>your analogy, you are insisting that a new newsgroup about Honda cars
>should be called rec.hondas instead of rec.autos.honda.
>
>Do you see where I'm getting the idea that you're claiming that manga
>aren't comics?  And if they *are* comics, why don't they belong in the
>rec.arts.comics hierarchy? 
>
I am going to reiterate the point I made much earlier.  Manga is a term
used to describe all forms of sequential art.  But this is from the viewpoint
of countries where most of the sequential art is of the form which you
want to label as "manga".  Your label, in my opinion, does not truly 
capture the true definition of manga.  It is better understood, in my
opinion, to look at manga as "sequential art through the eyes of people
living in Japan, Korea,[insert favorite country with "manga"]"  
You see, for them, there is nothing but manga, as for you there is nothing
but comics. US comics would be a subset of manga, as you feel manga should
be a subset of comics.  Of course when you say manga, they won't go and
think of US sequential art as their prime example, just as when people say 
comics, you wouldn't go and think of Japanese sequential art as your
prime example.  That's why the working definition of "manga" and "comics"
have made themselves into an "eastern sequential art" and "western sequential
art".  But understood that way, it doesn't really capture their true
definitions. 

Now, in this light, one can see that comics and manga are two different
points of view of the same thing.  That, is what I was trying to get at.  
That is why I am not asserting that manga and comics are different.  
That is why I am using an analogy of "autos" and "cars" not "hondas" 
and "autos".  If you're getting the idea that I'm trying to say that
"manga aren't comics"  I think you misunderstood me. So, given that
I still don't believe one is a subset of another, why should I support you?

 
--
Jun Kim                                         jkim@jingoro.Eng.Sun.Com
Sun Microsystems
Mountain View, CA                               "Oboete imasu ka..."
From: alok@cbnewsi.cb.att.com (alok.vijayvargia)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: 2nd RFD: SCIA (A violation of net guidelines)
Date: 6 Apr 92 20:37:27 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: AT&T

In article <1992Apr3.161354.4882@dartvax.dartmouth.edu>, hades@coos.dartmouth.edu (Hades) writes:
> raghavan@wk21.nas.nasa.gov (Venkatraman Raghavan) writes:
> 
> >We are in an situation where we are 'discussing' a newsgroup which
> >is already there, at least in some/many sites.  Please let the people
> >at soc.culture.indian.american know of your opinions by cross-posting.
> 
>     Actually, according to Greg Spafford's list of active newsgroups,
> soc.culture.indian.american doesn't and shouldn't exist. It was taken
> off the list of valid newsgroups due to the questionable tactics used by
> Alok during the vote taking, and has been removed from a great many
> sites already. This current discussion is to hopfully conduct a vote
> that will be accepted as valid and get the group created since there is
> obviously good support for it.
> 
> --
> -Hades  (Brian V. Hughes)   | "When you get right down do it there is only

While I maintain that the initial reasons for taking it off the official list
were the problems associated with its name, I would also like to point
out that whatever the reasons for earlier SCIA group to be not 
official, the current RFD is a clear VIOLATION of the net guidelines.

An official RFD was posted for SCIA on October 19, 1991. This resulted in
posting a CFV on November 19, 1991.

No matter what happens to the results of the earlier RFD (October 19, 1991),
it is a clear violation to post an RFD for the same group with the same
charter in less than six months. Six months period from last RFD ends on
April 19, 1992. Any RFD for SCIA should have been posted only after
this date.

The fact that this violation has been done with the consent of David
Lawrence (Who too posted this new RFD on news.announce.newgroups)
and group-advice members is even more disturbing. 

How can we be expected to follow guidelines in letter and spirit when the
net.gods are violating it ?

Disgusted,

Alok Vijayvargia
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: ccsdra@gdt.bath.ac.uk (Dave Allum)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: No New Enya News Group!!
Date: 9 Apr 92 15:04:37 GMT
Organization: BUCS, University of Bath, U.K.

In <1992Apr7.232621.7778@msuinfo.cl.msu.edu> Kamchatka Charlie (kamchar@ibm.cl.msu.edu) writes:
> There's an alt group for that already; 
> if you can't get it at your site, FTP it.
                                    ^^^^^^
Where from?
From: jkim@jingoro.Eng.Sun.COM (Jun Kim)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: The rec.arts.{comics.}manga wars continue
Date: 9 Apr 92 20:53:54 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Mt. View, Ca.
NNTP-Posting-Host: jingoro

In article <1992Apr9.194416.27448@cbnews.cb.att.com> nrc@cbnews.cb.att.com (N. Richard Caldwell) writes:
>From article <1992Apr9.185836.29853@wdl.loral.com>, by dcb@wdl1.wdl.loral.com (David C Blume):
>> 
>> Good point.  The group for the discussion of western comics should be
>> on the same level as the group for the discussion of asian comics.  Currently
>> the group for the discussion of western comics is rec.arts.comics.  That
>> can change, and if so, we'd be happy to move the proposed rec.arts.manga
>> too.
>
>When did r.a.comics become restricted to only western comics?  Is this
>a real division (one included in the charter) or one that has arisen only 
>because the fans of some comic genre (e.g. "manga") don't want to discuss 
>their interest in the general comics forum.  
>

Looking at the header, this appears to be a reply from Lazlo's summary that
he posted to r.a.comics.  Not to say the above point doesn't have validity
in the right contexts, but the discussion here is to solidify the definition
of those contexts. (manga vs comics, etc)  Under different contexts, those
points might not hold as much truth.

Please, once again, if you are interested in widening the base of participants
in this discussion, ask them over to news.groups instead of presenting
paraphrased versions to them.  The viewpoints they recieve will tend to
be biased, and they will probably not grasp the full scope of the discussion.
(Like walking in during the middle of a conversation, n'est-ce pas?)

 

--
Jun Kim                                         jkim@jingoro.Eng.Sun.Com
Sun Microsystems
Mountain View, CA                               "Oboete imasu ka..."