HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: wheeler@super.org (Ferrell S. Wheeler)
Subject: Re: VEGETARIAN DIETS
Organization: Supercomputing Research Center (Bowie, MD)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 16:32:32 GMT

Hayden,

  Thank you for your comments. 
The short answer to your question is as follows, in all the
epidemiological studies done correlating types of food consumed
and risk of degenerative disease (cancer, heart disease, etc.)
there has been no evidence of "dips" in the curve.  The less
animal products consumed the lower the risk (the curves are
monotonic).  Even at low consumption rates differences are
detected.  Indeed, this is why the China Study is so amazingly
interesting.  Dr. Campbell did not expect to find correlations
at low consumption rates (in some sense confirming this suspicion
was the purpose of the study).  He was amazed at how strong the
evidence was that the less animal products the better.  To the
best of my knowledge he is not a vegetarian, yet he helped
developed the "New Four Food Groups" -- grains, legumes, fruits,
and vegetables.  Animal products should be considered optional
foods, ie, they should be treated like candy or liquor, etc.
I will mail you the well referenced position paper for the
New Four Food Groups if you send me your postal address.
  There have been many studies done on vegetarians directly.
I refer you to the ADA (American Dietetic Association) position
paper on vegetarianism for a good bibliography.  Allow me
to quote William Robert, M.D., editor of the American Journal
of Cardiology and an NIH researcher:  "There is a whole list
of diseases that nonvegetarians get.... You name the disease:
atherosclerosis, hypertension, adult-onset diabetes, obesity,
peptic ulser, diverticulosis, breast and colon cancer, trichinosis,
gallstones, kidney stones -- those are diseases meat eaters get.
Pure vegetarians [vegans] don't get those diseases."  Now even
I know he is using a bit of hyperbole, but his point is familiar
to all those doing research in optimal diets for humans.  Indeed,
CSPI held a panel discussion on optimal diets last year.  The
researchers were essentially forced to conclude that a varied
vegan diet was best.  The major quibbling was on "What should
we recommend to the public?"
   I could write on this topic for hours, but may I suggest you
read a bit on your own.  A few good books,
  The Power of Your Plate by Neal Barnard, M.D., he essentially
       just interviews the top researchers in the country on
       what is the optimal diet for humans.
  Dean Ornish's Guide to Reversing Heart Disease by D. Ornish, M.D.
       where he shows that current recommendations by the AMA and
       the AHA (ie he holds them up to scientific scrutiny) are
       scientifically unsound.

Take care,

Ferrell Wheeler
wheeler@super.org

P.s. I am not the author of the PCRM articles.  I just have them
on-line and will be happy to email them to anyone who requests
them.  There are about 9 of them.
Newsgroups: sci.med.nutrition
From: dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer)
Subject: Re: VEGETARIAN DIET
Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting, Cambridge MA
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 17:23:38 GMT

In article <1992Sep15.164451.12675@pixel.kodak.com> young@serum.kodak.com writes:
>>"Beano", an enzyme from the bacterium Aspergillus flavus, can be added
>>to yur first spoonful of beans if you're still sensitive to this.
>	Oops!  Sorry, Steve, but on MY bottle of "Beano" it says it comes
>	from Aspergillus niger, not A. flavus.  I believe that A. flavus
>	is the source of aflatoxin.

Um, one man's meat is another man's poison? :-)
Thanks for the correction!

-- 
Steve Dyer
dyer@ursa-major.spdcc.com aka {ima,harvard,rayssd,linus,m2c}!spdcc!dyer
Newsgroups: sci.med.nutrition
From: slaury@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Susan Laury)
Subject: Re: hypoglycemia-- TESTS
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 21:57:23 GMT

In article <1992Sep3.133838.12810@porthos.cc.bellcore.com> jil@uts.uucp (Jamie Lubin) writes:
>In article <Btyx6r.6G@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> slaury@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Susan Laury) writes:
>>In article <1992Sep1.184847.10872@porthos.cc.bellcore.com> jil@uts.uucp (Jamie Lubin) writes:
>>>To determine hypoglycemia requires at least a 5-hour Glucose Tolerance Test &
>>>then hopefully the results will be properly interpreted.  Diet should be higher
>>
>>
>>Is the test generally hard to interpret? I have most of the symptoms
>>of hypoglycemia and was tested for it (one test after a 12-hour fast,
>>the other two hours after a prescribed meal), but the lab said the
>>results were within normal limits. Does anyone else have an idea
>>of another condition that could be masking itself with hypoglycemia-
>>like symptoms?
>
>After your fast, did you have to drink something vile and sugary once every
>hour for 5 hours?  Did they measure your blood sugar each hour?  Did they
>end up with a blood sugar curve that they were to interpret?  Was any of
>this done by, let's say, a nutrition-minded MD or at least someone who
>believes that hypoglycemia isn't vague or psychosomatic??

No to all the above. Just a two hour fast after the meal. The only results
that I was given were a couple of numbers for the post-12hour fast
and the 2-hour blood sugar level. She (the nurse reporting the
results) also quoted a couple of ranges for normal limits.

Oh well. I guess I'll keep eating in the way that makes me feel better
(that is, using guidelines prescribed for hypoglycemics;).

Sus.






-- 
And the speaking will get easier and easier. ... And at last you'll know with
surpassing certainty that only one thing is more frightening than speaking
your truth. And that is not speaking.
		--Naomi Wolf, Commencement Address, Scripps College
Newsgroups: sci.med.nutrition,rec.food.veg
From: dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer)
Subject: Re: VEGETARIAN DIET
Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting, Cambridge MA
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 23:59:06 GMT

In article <1992Sep9.225727.28588@newshost.lanl.gov> srlee@beta.lanl.gov (Stephen R Lee) writes:
>This may be a stupid question (and/or an FAQ), but is there anything
>wrong with simply taking a multi-vitamin each morning?  The multi-vitamins
>I take have all this stuff in 'em.  Won't that solve the lack of calcium
>*and* B12 problem?

I don't think there's anything wrong with taking a daily multivitamin,
though a lot of people will emphasize that it may not be necessary.
(Frankly, I think it's easier for someone following a strictly vegan
diet to take a small amount of B12 daily than remember to take a large
dose every 6 months or so, but others don't agree with me.  It undoubtedly
comes down to what is easiest for you.)

As for calcium, your daily requirement is larger than you could put
easily in a multivitamin.  It's not a trace mineral--women need about
800mg/day, 1200mg/day when they're pregnant or lactating, and men about
400mg/day.

-- 
Steve Dyer
dyer@ursa-major.spdcc.com aka {ima,harvard,rayssd,linus,m2c}!spdcc!dyer
From: dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer)
Newsgroups: sci.med.nutrition
Subject: Re: VEGETARIAN DIET
Date: 12 Sep 92 22:51:26 GMT
Article-I.D.: spdcc.1992Sep12.225126.27230
Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting, Cambridge MA

In article <12SEP92.21451841@nerus.pfc.mit.edu> mrl@nerus.pfc.mit.edu writes:
>I'm confused.  Aren't many foods a combination of carbohydrates and proteins
>anyway?

That *is* problematic, isn't it?  It doesn't occur to these proponents,
apparently.

>Also, doesn't any theory on diet have to have anthropological evidence?

Yes, it comes from watching too many National Geographic specials
featuring chimpanzees and drawing conclusions from that.

>I.e. did people use to eat such foods separately? I don't see such
>evidence in existing diets around the world, but I would be interested in
>hearing about such evidence.

Don't hold your breath.

-- 
Steve Dyer
dyer@ursa-major.spdcc.com aka {ima,harvard,rayssd,linus,m2c}!spdcc!dyer
Newsgroups: sci.med.nutrition
From: jil@uts.uucp (Jamie Lubin)
Subject: Re: Is Vitamin C TOXIC ???
Organization: Bellcore, Piscataway, NJ
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 92 18:49:25 GMT
Keywords: Is Vitamin C TOXIC ???

In article <1992Sep14.173143.19933@njitgw.njit.edu> sudesh@utkal.njit.edu (T. J. Sudesh) writes:
>
>      Hi Gurus,
>               I have been seeing a lot of postings regarding Vitamin C and its
>      related effects on cancer & the immune system.I am really surprised to see
>      so many people devour such high doses of the same.My questions are :
>
>	1) Doesn't high doses of ascorbic acid cause the urine to become
>           more acidic,thereby making the person prone to kidney stones ?
>	   ( this may be the reason why UTI patients benefit from the same )
>
>	2) whenever anyone in my family tries a dose in excess of 250mg, We
>	   seem to experience some kind of ill-feeling (ie. joint pains,
>	   body ache, head ache, Anorexia).Are there any logical solutions 
>	   to these observations ?
 
I've been taking ~ 2800 mg. daily for > 15 years with only positive effects. I
use a "natural" C as opposed to pure ascorbic acid.  As far as the
"ill-feeling" you describe, it may be an allergic reaction to some excipient or
binder used or something else in the tablet. Many people have an allergy to
citrus fruits too.

>	3) Vitamin C, an anti-Oxidant also has a mild anti-histaminic affect,
>	   which is why patients who take it during a "flu/cold" attack
>	   feel better.Is that right ?
 
True.

>	4) what would be the dosage recommended for a normal adult ?
 
No one really knows.  Trial & error in the best method.  The RDAs (recommended
daily allowances) are basically too low & don't take biochemical individuality
into account.
Newsgroups: sci.med.nutrition
From: helen@spss.com (Helen Smith)
Subject: Re: Anorexia Nervosa
Organization: SPSS Inc.
      
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 16:53:58 GMT





In article <1992Sep4.051103.18527@news.iastate.edu> TY.AU7@isumvs.iastate.edu (C. MARIE RIGGINS) writes:
>I am looking for information on Anorexia Nervosa.  I have always
>been very small and very thin, I have had several people ask me
>if I am Anorexic and I would like to know the facts.  I know that
>anorexics try and starve themselves, which I do not do.  I would
>like to be able to put an end to their accusations.
>It doens't make any difference to me if you post or E-mail.
>My E-mail address TY.AU7@isumvs.iastate.edu
>Thanks...
>C. Marie Riggins

 
Xref: sparky sci.med.nutrition:170 rec.food.veg:8679
From: michael@resonex.com (Michael Bryan)
Newsgroups: sci.med.nutrition,rec.food.veg
Subject: Re: VEGETARIAN DIET
Date: 9 Sep 92 20:29:44 GMT
Organization: Resonex Inc., Sunnyvale CA

In article <BuCA4p.2IH@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca> molnar@Bisco.CAnet.CA (Tom Molnar) writes:
>
>BTW, there are good quality calcium supplements that you can disolve in
>water that are supposed to provide 1500 mg of calcium.  (A doctor prescribed
>them for my mother) I wonder how useful such megadoses could possibly be....

There is at least one possible *harmful* effect of ingesting large amounts
of calcium, one of which I'm all too painfully aware:  kidney stones.

In my case, I formed three separate stones between the ages of 21 and 24.
In all three instances, I was told to increase my fluid intake to help
prevent the forming of stones.  After the third one, at which time I
finally had a regular physician, a series of tests was performed,
including blood tests and urine volume/content tests.  The tests showed
that my urine production was somewhat low (from still not drinking
enough water), and my calcium levels were quite high, higher than could
be explained by not enough water intake.  After going over my diet
with the doctor a few times, I finally thought to check the vitamins
I had been taking.  Sure enough, they had a very high dosage of
calcium, although I don't remember what the actual content was.
(I'm think it was in the hundreds of milligrams, but less than 1000 mg,
but I could be wrong.)

I switched to a calcium-free multi-vitamin (and *tried* to be more
careful about fluid intake, but to be honest that still comes and
goes.)  A few months later, tests showed my calcium level to be
normal, and I haven't had a kidney stone since.

Obviously, there were several factors at play here, so high calcium
levels were not the sole cause of the problem.  However, it was a
contributing factor, and I still try to be careful about calcium
intake.  If you've ever had a kidney stone, you'll know why!  <yowch!>

Your mileage may vary, of course...

-- 
Michael Bryan  michael@resonex.com  "Milk and Cheese in '92!"  |     ,_,
"Lovers are like... dentures.  You don't want them in your     |    /oo \
mouth all night, but you sure as hell want them within arm's   |    <>__|
reach in the morning!"  --- Miss Elmira Gulch                  |    |  U|
Newsgroups: sci.med.nutrition
From: dfield@zeus.calpoly.edu (Daniel "InfoSpunj" Field)
Subject: Re: side effects of niacin
Organization: California Polytechnic State University, San Luis Obispo
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 07:45:05 GMT

     I occasionally take 25 to 50 mg of niacin to warm my hands in the
winter, as they get cold and numb easilly.  It seems to work quite well.
I am always adequately dressed, and hypothermia is not a possibility.
     What I would like to know is whether this low dosage of niacin 
is associated with liver damage or other toxic effects.  Dr. Dyer
implied monitoring was important for the 500 mg therapy.  Is this
much lower dosage even significant?
     Thanks.

-- 

                                -Daniel R. Field
                                 dfield@nike.calpoly.edu
From: young@serum.kodak.com
Newsgroups: sci.med.nutrition
Subject: Re: VEGETARIAN DIET
Date: 15 Sep 92 16:23:24 GMT
Article-I.D.: pixel.1992Sep15.162324.11989
Reply-To: young@serum.kodak.com
Organization: Clinical Diagnostics Division, Eastman Kodak Company
Originator: young@sasquatch

In article <JDB.92Sep14150434@camano.seo.dec.com> jdb@camano.seo.dec.com (Jeffrey D Brennan) writes:

[...]

>I found it interesting to note that this theory of protein/starch
>combination explains why beans are difficult to digest and often
>cause flatulence; they are a natural protein/starch combination.

	I believe that flatulence from beans is caused by the action of
	intestinal bacteria on indigestible sugars in the beans that the
	human digestive system cannot handle...which, now that I read it,
	is redundant, but you get the idea.  :-)


-Rich Young (These are not Kodak's opinions.)
Newsgroups: sci.med.nutrition
From: woodside@maestro.mitre.org (Jim Woodside)
Subject: Re:  Good basic book on nutrition
Reply-To: woodside@maestro.mitre.org (Jim Woodside)
Organization: The MITRE Corporation, McLean, Va
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 15:13:25 GMT


	I have several (Jane Brody's as well).  One that I found interesting
was "How To Be Your Own Nutitionist".  It was written by an MD but I forget
his name.  If anyone is interested, I'll check at home and post.  Also if
anyone is familiar with this book, I'd be interested to hear any comments.
The doctor discusses carbs, protein, and fats in separate chapters.  He also
discusses supplementation in accordance with various activities/sports/life-
styles/illnesses one might be involved in or have.
Xref: sparky sci.med.nutrition:148 rec.food.veg:8652
From: rw@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Robert Walker)
Newsgroups: sci.med.nutrition,rec.food.veg
Subject: VEGETARIAN DIET
Date: 9 Sep 92 17:40:52 GMT
Organization: Department of Computer Science, University of Edinburgh


Hi,

Hoping I'm posting to the right groups!!

I'm a vegetarian and as such I am interested in what nutritional deficiencies
are _most_ common, in this particular diet, from a _scientific_ standpoint.

For example should I take iron supplements and the like? (I suppose it can't
hurt...)

Is it really protein deficient. I have heard that vegetable-based protein is
harder to absorb. Is this true?

I remember seeing on the TV that there is a place(??) somewhere(?? 8-) in the
UK that offers a service which would check a vegetarians diet (/carry out
tests?) for any deficiences. Does anyone know what I'm talking about :-) and
have a contact address??

   Thanks in advance for your help

   Rob


----------------------
Email: rw@uk.ac.ed.dcs
Newsgroups: sci.med.nutrition
From: ekp@mcnc.org (Edward Pavelchek)
Subject: Re: VEGETARIAN DIET
Keywords: some people need LOTS of food energy
Organization: Good place for a disclaimer
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 15:46:50 GMT

In article <14684@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> ah690549@mbcr.bcm.tmc.edu (Annette C. Hollmann) writes:
>If I tried to live on fruit until noon, I would get a hypoglycemic crash
>before I even got going! The only way fruit will not make me crash is if I
>eat lots of starchy food such as cereal at the same time. The fruit gives
>me the quick boost I need to get my blood sugar up and quickly reach a
>maximum energy level. Then, when the sugars from the fruit are used up,
>the energy from the more complex carbohydrates start supplying energy.

I recognize this as familiar, widely spread advice.  But recently I've
learned some contradictory things.  First, exercise people trying to
stuff glucose into marathoner's arteries have shown that 15% solutions
of 22 long chains of glucose polymer are used faster than glucose,
and that soluble starch is metabolized twice as fast as the glucose
polymer (Hawley, J Appl Physio 71:1801).

Secondly, the glycemic index of fruits is very low, in general, compared
with starchy foods mentioned by Annette.  From an article in
Am J Clin Nutr, 54:414:

White bread  71
Brown rice   63
Corn flakes  83

vs

Orange      43
Plum        24
Grapes      43
Apples      39

I don't have melon data, but these suggest that fruits should not cause
a 'hypoglycemic crash', and that starchy complex carbohydrates might
cause one.
-- 
Ed Pavelchek   ekp@mcnc.org
But I make a profit of 3 1/4 cents an egg by selling them for 4 1/4
cents an egg to the people in Malta I buy them from for 7 cents an egg.
Of course, *I* don't make the profit.          Joseph Heller, Catcha 22
Newsgroups: sci.med.nutrition
From: davef@cs.ubc.ca (David Finkelstein)
Subject: Re: Cancer and vitamin C
Organization: Computer Science, University of B.C., Vancouver, B.C., Canada
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 92 18:00:58 GMT

In article <1992Sep11.211809.6126@emr1.emr.ca> woodgold@emr1.emr.ca (Cathy Woodgold) writes:
>The book How To Live Longer And Feel Better by Linus Pauling has a 26-page
>chapter on cancer.  Much of what follows is quoted from that chapter.
>

[stuff deleted]

Of course, it should be pointed out that Linus Pauling has recently
been diagnosed with cancer of the prostrate.

--
---------------------------------------------------------------------
David Finkelstein               |"Nothing comes out of the faucet
University of British Columbia  | but strawberry jelly.  I guess 
davef@cs.ubc.ca                 | that's how rich millionaires live."
From: bradbury@sftwks.UUCP (Robert Bradbury)
Newsgroups: sci.med.nutrition
Subject: Tradeoffs between reproduction and repair [was: weight gain]
Summary: Your body strikes a balance between reproduction and repair
Keywords: reproduction, weight gain, DNA repair
Date: 7 Sep 92 20:49:01 GMT
Organization: Softworks Ltd, Seattle, WA

In article <1992Sep3.210315.3482@leland.Stanford.EDU>
  jojo@leland.Stanford.EDU (Joanne Spetz) writes:
>
>Maybe someone has more info on this, but the last time I saw an article
>on the need to gain weight, it was in reference to fertility.  Supposedly
>some study found that many "infertile" women were properly functioning
>after gaining 10-15% of their weight.  The recommended diet was high-carb
>(of course).  Anybody know more on this?  I've always thought the
>obsession with super-low weights and body fat levels counter the
>fact that the female body needs fat to have children.
>
Joanne is correct.  There has been alot of speculation in the scientific
literature that low body weight (caloric restriction) has the major effect
of switching energy resources from reproduction to maintenance and repair
of DNA and proteins.  This makes sense from an environmental adaptation
point of view as one doesn't want to reproduce when food resources are
scarce because it will reduce the probability of the offspring surviving.
Instead you want to try and keep the parent(s) in good condition until
such time as the environment improves and can support your offspring.

This shows up in women where when the calorie intake (probably the body
fat percentage) gets too low the reproductive cycle gets shut down.
In men it doesn't seem to be as apparent since sperm production is
relatively cheap in terms of energy resources.  The mechanisms which
get invoked to do repair of DNA and recycling of proteins seem to
operate just as well in both sexes however.

-- 
Robert Bradbury			uunet!sftwks!bradbury

Death is an imposition on the human race, and no longer acceptable
				Alan Harrington, The Immortalist (1969)
From: dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer)
Newsgroups: sci.med.nutrition
Subject: Re: side effects of niacin
Date: 15 Sep 92 14:45:48 GMT
Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting, Cambridge MA

In article <1992Sep15.074505.115642@zeus.calpoly.edu> dfield@zeus.calpoly.edu (Daniel "InfoSpunj" Field) writes:
>     What I would like to know is whether this low dosage of niacin 
>is associated with liver damage or other toxic effects.

No.

>Dr. Dyer implied monitoring was important for the 500 mg therapy.  Is this
>much lower dosage even significant?

I'm not a doctor.  Niacin, in daily doses of 500mg to several grams a
day, may lower certain blood lipids--whether it's suitable for you
depends on your lipid profile.  At such doses, it is also associated
with a number of side effects, which is why you don't want to take this
drug without medical supervision.

-- 
Steve Dyer
dyer@ursa-major.spdcc.com aka {ima,harvard,rayssd,linus,m2c}!spdcc!dyer
From: bch@juliet.caltech.edu (MR. MAPLE)
Newsgroups: sci.med.nutrition
Subject: Re: Cancer and vitamin C
Date: 12 Sep 92 00:13:00 GMT
Organization: California Institute of Technology
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <1992Sep11.211809.6126@emr1.emr.ca>, woodgold@emr1.emr.ca (Cathy Woodgold) writes...
>The book How To Live Longer And Feel Better by Linus Pauling has a 26-page
>chapter on cancer.  Much of what follows is quoted from that chapter.
> 

[article deleted]

I don't want to knock megadoses of vitamins, if it works for you, that's great.
But...

Has a study been done correlating megadoses of vitamins and renal function?  I
imagine that since many vitamins are just filtered out by the kidneys it might
serve to overwork them.

Bryan
Newsgroups: sci.med.nutrition,rec.food.veg
From: strnlght@netcom.com (David Sternlight)
Subject: Re: VEGETARIAN DIET
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 92 18:58:41 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)


rw asks about vitamin deficiencies and how to handle them in a vegetarian
diet. Doubtless others more expert than I will be responding.

But here's one datum--Vitamin B12 is often mentioned as a deficiency
if one doesn't eat meat or dairy products. One persuasive post by another
here pointed out that the body stores B12 for long periods of time (3-5 years
was mentioned) and produces it on demand, and that the needs are microscopic.
The suggestion here was that if you did feel worried about a B12 deficiency
(which was said to be rare in vegetarians in any case), a supplement once
every six months would do it.

As for other vitamins, my take is that a well-rounded vegetarian eating
program of the sort in "Fit for Life" or its sequels would obviate the
need for any supplements.

Just a counterbalance to the take 5 of these wonder pills a day promoters
in the health food stores.

Newsgroups: sci.med.nutrition