From: leeper@cbnewsj.cb.att.com (Mark R. Leeper)
Subject: Re: THUNDERHEART
Organization: AT&T
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1992 03:15:28 GMT

[Heavy spoilers follow]

In article <28812@brahms.udel.edu> bew@brahms.udel.edu (Ben Williams) writes:
> In article <1992Apr10.180629.8055@cbnewsj.cb.att.com> leeper@cbnewsj.cb.att.com (mark.r.leeper) writes:

> ;      murder case on the Ogalala Sioux Indian Reservation.  Well-

>   That's 'Oglala', I believe...

Right you are.  One point to your side.  I never was good with
spelling.

>   [one hell of a cynical movie review]

I would have said more an angry one.

> ;      Oh, heck, I know director Michael Apted's heart was in the right place,
> ; but John Fusco's script was just awful.  Twenty-five years ago this would
> ; have been a good script but it has been used, with variations, just too
> ; often.  
> 
>   Huh?  I can count movies that have portrayed Native Americans fairly on the
>   the fingers of one hand.  That's too often?

I gave the examples in my review.  The same conventions have been used
with all sorts of conflicts.  Examples of the same conventions being
used include THE UGLY AMERICAN, BROKEN ARROW, UNDER FIRE, to some
extent MISSING and STATE OF SEIGE.  I said that by the time the
conventions came around again to the Indians it was worn out.

> 
> ;         And the Indians who have been handed so many injustices deserve a
> ; better story.  The motive for the murder that brings FBI man Ray Lavo
> ; (played by Val Kilmer) to the Ogalala Sioux reservation is also one that has
> ; been used too many times.  
> 
>   Really?  Let's have some examples...

What, of murders connected with a real estate deal?  Lots of times on
TV.  Then there was V. I. WARSHAVSKI, ONCE UPON A TIME IN THE WEST,
JEAN DE FLORETTE (That may be pushing it.  There wasn't actually a
deal.), THE TWO JAKES and CHINATOWN (if I remember right).  I am sure
that there are a bunch more that are not coming to mind.

> ;                            And for one more cheap shot, the film leaves
> ; ambiguous if Indian magic might be working.  I thought that went out with
> ; BILLY JACK.  Native Americans don't have any magic any more than anyone else
> ; does.  

>   And just how would you know?

My working philosophy is to assume only people who prove that they
have magic actually have it.  That is just basic scientific
skepticism.  I respect Indian folklore, but would need strong
evidence to accept it as truth.  Consider creation myths, for
example.  Worldwide there are lots of creation myths in various
folklores.  I respect them all, but since they contradict each other
I cannot consider them all to be true.  I am quite willing to be
convinced that there really is Indian magic, however.

> ; I wish they did.  Maybe if they did, they could use it to get some
> ; justice.  
>   Who was it that said to Jesus:  "You're the Messiah.  Save yourself."

And so why didn't he?  It seems like a reasonable suggestion on the
face of it.  Maybe we should discuss this one by e-mail.  I am happy
to discuss religion, but this is getting somewhat afield of
rec.arts.movies matter.

> ;           But Apted uses trick photography and staged scenes to imply you
> ; really can see ghost dancers who disappear in a flash or to imply that a man
> ; might have turned himself into a deer.  Indians are not great magical people
> ; who live half in a spirit world.  They are just a group of ethnic peoples
> ; who have been cheated and exploited and who desperately need a little bit of
> ; justice.  
>   Thank god for people like you who can see the situation so clearly...

I am always open to a second opinion.  If that's not your opinion, what
is?

> ;           Throwing them a bone by implying that their magic really breaks
> ; the laws of physics is just not what they need.  
> 
>   People seeing visions is breaking the laws of physics?  How so?

Ghost dancers appearing and disappearing on the desert.  Or do you
think that Apted was saying that that was a mirage?  There also is a
strong implication that a character has turned himself into a deer that
suddenly appears in the back of a shot.

> I'm sorry that a film about what is currently happening to the indigenous
> peoples of this country is not entertaining enough for you.  Oh well...

Show me one that is, and I'll let you know.  I am hoping that Apted's
documentary might be one that is.  However, a bad movie made is a good cause is
still a bad movie.

Anyway, thanks for the comments.


				Mark Leeper
				...att!mtgzy!leeper
				(908)957-5619