HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mausf@csv.warwick.ac.uk (S J Marsh)
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.misc,rec.games.mud.lp
Subject: Re: Client/server protocol for LP prompts
Date: 27 Jan 1993 13:57:02 -0000
Organization: Computing Services, University of Warwick, UK
Distribution: inet
NNTP-Posting-Host: mycella.csv.warwick.ac.uk

In article <1k5sbpINN2vv@uniwa.uwa.edu.au> guddt@uniwa.uwa.edu.au (David Bennett) writes:
>anipa@cs.tut.fi (Niilo Neuvo) writes:

> Why not make the client negotiate in some way when
>it logs on?  You could do it transperantly very easily.

Ugh. You still have keep sending some recognised character that
corresponds to 'here is the prompt'. That character may as well be GA.

>  So, I still
>ask why bother sleazing the telnet protocol.  I am very opposed to this
>it is has been sleazed a lot already :(  Have you ever looked at telnet
>source code :(

Its hardly a sleaze, as stated before, its almost exactly what the
definition of GA is.

>Either do it that the mud sends down a certain string when you log on,
>like Do you support Bing?  Then get your end to respond, yep!  

And how do you seperate these bits of negotiation from the rest of the
rubbish ?
People with clients that cant cope with the negotiations are just
gonna get sent junk however it works.

>Personaly I would do it through the terminal type negotiation bit of
>telnet.  Set the terminal type to 'mud-client' or something.  I got
>whelk to set the term type to whelk... (For this reason) But I am
>willing to change to make a standard.  Please don't make a sleaze a
>standard.  That happens too much :(

NONONONONONONOOOOOOOOOoooooooooo...........

This must be a big NO NO. What if I want to use my client to connect
to a non-mud server which then goes and demands my terminal type ?
Also, its possible future muds may need to know term types (think
about a mud that could check if you have an xterm, and if so sends
controls to set the title bar and such, there are huge possabilites
here).

Simon Marsh

S.J.Marsh@csv.warwick.ac.uk





Xref: sparky rec.games.mud.misc:2095 rec.games.mud.lp:5030
From: djohnson@cs.ucsd.edu (Darin Johnson)
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.misc,rec.games.mud.lp
Subject: Re: Client/server protocol for LP prompts
Keywords: client server prompt protocol
Date: 27 Jan 93 06:55:25 GMT
Followup-To: rec.games.mud.misc
Organization: =CSE Dept., U.C. San Diego

>The Solution:
>The server can append the TELNET protocol sequence IAC GA (Go Ahead) to
>lines not otherwise terminated (i.e., prompts).  A client can then
>immediately determine how to interpret a block of text:
...
>I don't see any problems in this new method.

Well...

a) All the output statements that do not have a carriage return
   at the end will have to be examined to determine if they
   are a prompt or not.  Unless your client is willing to accept
   making an occasional mistake either way.

b) Is it important enough to make this change?  Why not just display
   the partial text, then place the cursor after it?  Then if more
   text comes in later, display that, move cursor, etc.  If the user
   had typed text in the meantime, move the text to the new cursor
   position.  (is that easy in tinyfugue?  I haven't looked at it)

   (my problem here is that I'm unsure why you really need to know
   exactly if it's a prompt or not - it was a simple matter in my
   emacs client)

c) It's just more characters that end up getting ignored by everyone.
   (assuming it doesn't mess up things that aren't strictly telnet
   complient - including clients *and* telnet implementations)
   For example, MudOS added extra telnet options for character
   mode, involving adding extra filters to ignore them (twice,
   since the first time I mistakenly assumed no one would be
   silly enough to every turn that mode on).  It's minor, but
   it is annoying.

   (and ECHO isn't ignored by all clients.  Most clients can't just
   simply ignore stuff it doesn't understand, instead they have to
   filter them out so they don't cause terminals to mess up)
-- 
Darin Johnson
djohnson@ucsd.edu
  - Grad school - just say no.
Xref: sparky rec.games.mud.misc:2092 rec.games.mud.admin:1206 rec.games.frp.misc:11921 rec.games.int-fiction:1237
From: hawkeye@glia.biostr.washington.edu (Ken Keys - TF Dude)
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.misc,rec.games.mud.lp
Subject: Re: Client/server protocol for LP prompts
Date: 26 Jan 93 16:54:08 GMT
Organization: University of Washington
NNTP-Posting-Host: glia.biostr.washington.edu
Keywords: client server prompt protocol


In <1k2vqjINNl49@uniwa.uwa.edu.au> guddt@uniwa.uwa.edu.au (David Bennett) writes:

>hawkeye@glia.biostr.washington.edu (Ken Keys - TF Dude) writes:

>>The Problem:
>>When a client receives a block of text not terminated by any
>>end-of-line marker, there is no way for the client to tell if that text
>>is a prompt or just the end of a packet which will soon be followed
>>another packet containing the remainder of the line.  TinyFugue
>>attempts to handle this by waiting up to 0.25 seconds after receiving
>>an unterminated line.  If no more text is received in this period, TF
>>interprets the text as a prompt.  This method causes annoying delays in
>>displaying prompts, and delays in the net cause many normal lines to be
>>falsely interpreted as prompts.

>Why do you need to know whats a prompt?  The way I handled it with
>whelk was to keep a nice little buffer thingy which had the current
>unterminated characters in it.  These I assumed to be a prompt.

Think about what happens when a line is split across two packets.  The
client will receive one packet containg the first part of the line,
with no terminator.  Depending on the lag in the net, the rest of the
line may not arrive for quite some time.  In this case, the
unterminated first part will be falsely interpreted as a prompt.

By appending the IAC GA characters to prompts, there is no ambiguity:
text ending in CR LF is a normal line; text ending in IAC GA is a
prompt; and unterminated text is a partial line, which can be held
pending the arrival of another packet.

>It works for me :)  However, why do it with a sleaze on the telnet
>protocol?  Why not define up a client/server protocol for muds that
>includes all sorts of useful things that should have been done ages
>ago :)  Like typeing the packets and so on.

I wouldn't call it a sleaze.  According to RFC 854, the TELNET GA
command was intended to indicate "when a process at one end of a TELNET
connection cannot proceed without input from the other end".  In this
case, the game (server) is awaiting input from the player (client).

Certainly, one could define a much more complex protocol to do lots of
other useful stuff.  But that would require new clients and new
servers, totally incompatible with existing clients and servers.  By
staying within the TELNET protocol, "raw" telnet and old MUD clients
continue to work on new servers, and new clients can still use the
guessing method when connected to old servers.

--Ken

-- 
--
Ken Keys, aka Hawkeye
Master of the Fugue
kkeys@ucsd.edu or hawkeye@ucsd.edu
Xref: sparky rec.games.mud.misc:2101 rec.games.mud.admin:1208 rec.games.frp.misc:11949 rec.games.int-fiction:1244
From: d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se (Bertil Jonell)
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.misc,rec.games.mud.admin,rec.games.frp.misc,rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Rumor has it...
Date: 27 Jan 93 10:39:16 GMT
Organization: 'Vilse i Pankakan'-survivors Anonymous

In article <C1Hn6t.G0p@eis.calstate.edu> cwilder@eis.calstate.edu (Charlotte Wilder) writes:
>Re: THIS IS NOT A MUD
>
>Ahem... FYI, your "mud" is really nothing special... if someone just sat
>down seriously and used your run-of-the-mill LPmud v3+ driver and was a
>half decent programmer with intuitive skills and a good imagination, it
>wouldn't be half-hard to create an LPmud mudlib which has all of the
>features, and more, than you listed...

  Except the NPC's that have a life of their own, perhaps and not because
it can't be done but because it would be stupid to do it. 

  As the author of 'Tribbles' on Genesis, I can say with certainty that 
"If a tree falls in /room/forest and no mortal is there to hear it, it is a
 waste of heartbeat" :)

-bertil-
--
"It can be shown that for any nutty theory, beyond-the-fringe political view or
 strange religion there exists a proponent on the Net. The proof is left as an
 exercise for your kill-file."
Xref: sparky rec.games.mud.misc:2098 rec.games.mud.lp:5032
From: guddt@uniwa.uwa.edu.au (David Bennett)
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.misc,rec.games.mud.lp
Subject: Re: Client/server protocol for LP prompts
Date: 27 Jan 1993 19:40:41 +0800
Organization: The University of Western Australia
Distribution: inet
NNTP-Posting-Host: uniwa.uwa.edu.au
X-Newsreader: NN version 6.4.19 #1

anipa@cs.tut.fi (Niilo Neuvo) writes:

>Ever try mudding to a place that has so much netlag that your packets
>arrive in intresting bursts. Very often the packets are also split in
>the middle of a random description. This means that your system of
>guessing the prompt does not work.

Yes, I have tried this...  It works well enough.  As for your thingy
about telnet....  Why not make the client negotiate in some way when
it logs on?  You could do it transperantly very easily.  So, I still
ask why bother sleazing the telnet protocol.  I am very opposed to this
it is has been sleazed a lot already :(  Have you ever looked at telnet
source code :(

Either do it that the mud sends down a certain string when you log on,
like Do you support Bing?  Then get your end to respond, yep!  Or something
Personaly I would do it through the terminal type negotiation bit of
telnet.  Set the terminal type to 'mud-client' or something.  I got
whelk to set the term type to whelk... (For this reason) But I am
willing to change to make a standard.  Please don't make a sleaze a
standard.  That happens too much :(

We all know about the interesting BSD supress go ahead sleaze.  sigh.


David.
[DDT] Pink fish forever.

-- 
  David Bennett,  guddt@uniwa.uwa.oz.au | University Computer Club
     Where Pink fish swim backwards.    | c/o Guild of Undergraduates
These words I am singing now mean nothing more than meow to an animal - TMBG
Disclaimer: Any spelling mistakes in this article are all entirly my fault.  Any grammer errors spotted in this article were put there because I could.
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.misc,rec.games.mud.tiny
From: jad@beta.lanl.gov (John De Vries)
Subject: Oh dear, here I go again (was: Re: Can a WIZ threaten you in RL????)
Organization: Lost Almost Feed'n'Seed
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 22:09:41 GMT

Matthew J Brown writes:
>This is getting silly. Whether what the guy did fits into anyone's
>dictionary definition of 'harassment' doesn't really matter; his
>action was rude and somewhat clueless,
>-Morven
>| mjb@doc.ic.ac.uk  


Some other questions:

Why has this action been judged, and almost universally accepted as
being rude?  Sexist, yes, discriminatory, yes; but was it truly rude?

Just for the sake of argument, let us ignore the fact that the player
chose a subset of other players.  If there was a "newspaper" where
someone put such a request in the "classifieds", would anyone in their
right mind penalize the poster of such a request?  Is it not true that
any major city in "the real world" has such ads all the time and not
ONE of them are the subject for action?  Of course, that the player
did indeed choose a subset may well void any point that this paragraph
makes.

Again, for the sake of argument, what if there were other players
willing to role-play exactly what this player wanted?  How was the
player supposed to contact them in a non-rude, non-clueless fashion?
Is there such a mechanism, should there be such a mechanism?

Is perhaps the thing that really peeves some people the whole notion
of the "bachelor party" -- is that by any chance the real crux of the
situation?

Another question that is rather off-the-wall.  Is there, in fact, such
a function as someone supposed, something called @sex which returns
the "assumed gender" of a player?  Why should such a thing as that
exist if not for _some_ kind of discrimination?  Shouldn't that be
removed as well?  I realize that if the function doesn't exist on the
game in question, this whole paragraph is wholly clueless.

The only thing that justifies the wizard's behavior in this matter, to
my mind, is that other events occurred than just this one request.
Other players condemning the player because of this one request,
in my opinion, is an over-reaction.


j. devries   jad@lanl.gov
the lab doesn't even want me to make my opinions public.
Xref: sparky rec.games.mud.misc:2106 rec.games.mud.lp:5043
From: guddt@uniwa.uwa.edu.au (David Bennett)
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.misc,rec.games.mud.lp
Subject: Re: Client/server protocol for LP prompts
Date: 28 Jan 1993 12:01:27 +0800
Organization: The University of Western Australia
Distribution: inet
NNTP-Posting-Host: uniwa.uwa.edu.au
X-Newsreader: NN version 6.4.19 #1

mausf@csv.warwick.ac.uk (S J Marsh) writes:

>>Personaly I would do it through the terminal type negotiation bit of
>>telnet.  Set the terminal type to 'mud-client' or something.  I got
>>whelk to set the term type to whelk... (For this reason) But I am
>>willing to change to make a standard.  Please don't make a sleaze a
>>standard.  That happens too much :(

>NONONONONONONOOOOOOOOOoooooooooo...........

>This must be a big NO NO. What if I want to use my client to connect
>to a non-mud server which then goes and demands my terminal type ?
>Also, its possible future muds may need to know term types (think
>about a mud that could check if you have an xterm, and if so sends
>controls to set the title bar and such, there are huge possabilites
>here).

Have you read the rfc on telnet term types?  It doesn't just send 1
type...  In fact you send a whole bunch of them if you like.

This does not exclude it from also pretending to be whatever type
of terminal you want it to.  It is transperant...

David.
[DDT] Pink fish forever.
-- 
  David Bennett,  guddt@uniwa.uwa.oz.au | University Computer Club
     Where Pink fish swim backwards.    | c/o Guild of Undergraduates
These words I am singing now mean nothing more than meow to an animal - TMBG
Disclaimer: Any spelling mistakes in this article are all entirly my fault.  Any grammer errors spotted in this article were put there because I could.
Xref: sparky rec.games.mud.misc:2055 rec.games.mud.lp:4981
From: hawkeye@glia.biostr.washington.edu (Ken Keys - TF Dude)
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.misc,rec.games.mud.lp
Subject: Re: Client/server protocol for LP prompts
Date: 24 Jan 93 20:27:44 GMT
Organization: University of Washington
NNTP-Posting-Host: glia.biostr.washington.edu
Keywords: client server prompt protocol

BTW, the TELNET protocol is described in RFC 854, available at nic.ddn.mil.

--
Ken Keys, aka Hawkeye
Master of the Fugue
kkeys@ucsd.edu or hawkeye@ucsd.edu
-- 
--
Ken Keys, aka Hawkeye
Master of the Fugue
kkeys@ucsd.edu or hawkeye@ucsd.edu
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.misc,rec.games.mud.tiny
From: jad@beta.lanl.gov (John De Vries)
Subject: A question or so (was: Re: Can a WIZ threaten you in RL????)
Organization: Lost Almost Feed'n'Seed
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 21:45:56 GMT

>Persistence can be in space, as well as time. Sending the note to multiple
>parties is as much persistence as sending the note multiple times to a 
>party who ignores them.
>
>-Doriana
>		jenneke is: jsb16@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu



Did the player in this matter have to type the same message in
OVER AND OVER, persistently?  Or did they use a mailing-list kind
of mechanism, one that has a single message but a list of receipients?
If, and only if, the player had to type the message in a persistent manner
was that player being "persistent" in time or space.

Incidentally, is there a well defined policy on this particular game
that indicates what sorts of behaviors merit what sorts of responses?
Or was this yet again one of those kind of ad-hoc decisions that we
all-too-often see in the networking world based on a subjective rather
than objective value system?

If either of these questions doesn't result in the answers that you
"prefer", are you willing to change your mind IN THIS ONE INSTANCE?


j. devries, jad@lanl.gov

Xref: sparky rec.games.mud.misc:2107 rec.games.mud.lp:5044
From: guddt@uniwa.uwa.edu.au (David Bennett)
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.misc,rec.games.mud.lp
Subject: Re: Client/server protocol for LP prompts
Date: 28 Jan 1993 12:03:21 +0800
Organization: The University of Western Australia
Distribution: inet
NNTP-Posting-Host: uniwa.uwa.edu.au
X-Newsreader: NN version 6.4.19 #1

mausf@csv.warwick.ac.uk (S J Marsh) writes:

>This must be a big NO NO. What if I want to use my client to connect
>to a non-mud server which then goes and demands my terminal type ?
>Also, its possible future muds may need to know term types (think
>about a mud that could check if you have an xterm, and if so sends
>controls to set the title bar and such, there are huge possabilites
>here).

I forgot to say something.  About the knowing if you are a xterm and
setting stupid things.  Why make it so specific?  Why not make it nice
and generic?  In that case why not use a mud term type and get
the client to handle things as it wants?

David.
[DDT] Pink fish forever.
-- 
  David Bennett,  guddt@uniwa.uwa.oz.au | University Computer Club
     Where Pink fish swim backwards.    | c/o Guild of Undergraduates
These words I am singing now mean nothing more than meow to an animal - TMBG
Disclaimer: Any spelling mistakes in this article are all entirly my fault.  Any grammer errors spotted in this article were put there because I could.
From: tshields@unssun.nevada.edu (Timothy Shields)
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.misc
Subject: property.h
Date: 25 Jan 93 04:17:18 GMT
Organization: University of Nevada, Reno

I'm looking for a file I saw one named property.h.  It allowed
one to add_property, query_property or subtract_property.  I
essentially want to add and subtract elements in an array, but
am not sure about to go about it in LPC.  I would appreciate
any examples anyone has. 

Thanks,

Timothy Shields

tshields@unssun.unr.edu
"Spiffy, spiffy, everything is just fine, fine."
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.misc,rec.games.mud.admin,rec.games.frp.misc,rec.games.int-fiction
From: rdippold@qualcom.qualcomm.com (Ron Dippold)
Subject: Re: Rumor has it...
Organization: Qualcomm, Inc., San Diego, CA
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 00:11:15 GMT

In article <1993Jan27.173505.12915@aston.ac.uk> wrighttj@uhura.aston.ac.uk (Auntie Tim) writes:
>Personally, I was impressed by the fact that the NPCs will use
>"Artificial Intelligence"... I was under the impression that 
>this wasn't currently possible.

Artificial Intelligence really doesn't imply all that much... it could
be intelligence of a ringworm.  It really shouldn't be that hard to
program something to handle the basics.  Kill, get treasure, heal, eat.
-- 
Insanity is inherited; you get it from your kids!
Xref: sparky rec.games.mud.announce:211 rec.games.mud.tiny:1552 alt.fan.pern:2672
From: ambar@cygnus.com (Jean Marie Diaz)
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.announce,rec.games.mud.tiny,alt.fan.pern
Subject: Red Star: 2.0 MUSH opening
Followup-To: poster
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 93 02:27:48 PST
Organization: University of Washington
Reply-To: ambar@cygnus.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: glia.biostr.washington.edu
Originator: scott@glia

Announcing the opening of.... 

     *****   ******  *****         ****   ********    *     *****
     **  **  *****   **  **      ***  **  *******    ***    **  **
     **  **  **      **   **     **          **     ** **   **  **
     ** **   ****    **   **      ****       **    **   **  ** **
     ****    ***     **   **       ****      **    *******  ****
     ** **   **      **   **          **     **    **   **  ** **
     **  **  ******  **  **      **  ***     **    **   **  **  **
     **  **  ******  *****        ****       **    **   **  **  **

 	...a 2.0 MUSH set at the beginning of the 4th Pass on Pern and
currently set on Ista Island.  Midway between _DragonsDawn_ and _Moreta:
Dragonlady of Pern_, this time period offers a chance to play out Pern's
unwritten history as it might have been. (Or as it should have been, who
knows!)

Wizards are currently: R'zen, Maren, Ar'och, M'keal, Loran, Milandra

	We're looking for people interested in Pern, good roleplaying,
and Threadfall, so if you're interested, Red Star can be found at:

		 	kyriath.cygnus.com 6666
			140.174.1.69 6666

A Gather will be held at Ista Sea Hold sometime during the weekend of
January 29-31 to celebrate the opening and allow people to get to know
each other.


-- 
rec.games.mud.announce submissions: rgm-announce@glia.biostr.washington.edu
other stuff related to that group:  rgm-announce-request@glia...
mudlist-related mail:		    mudlist@glia.biostr.washington.edu
other mail of a personal nature:    scott@glia... or scg@mentor.cc.purdue.edu
From: dunemush@cogsci.berkeley.edu (DuneMUSH)
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.announce
Subject: DuneMUSH open to the public!
Followup-To: poster
Date: 26 Jan 1993 19:23:45 GMT
Organization: Institute of Cognitive Studies, U.C. Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: glia.biostr.washington.edu
X-Date: 19 Jan 1993 01:27:23 GMT
Originator: scott@glia

Ya! Ya! Yawm!
It is with great pleasure that I announce the public opening of:

DDDDDDDD    UU      UU   NN      NN   EEEEEEEEEE
DD     DD   UU      UU   NNNN    NN   EE
DD     DD   UU      UU   NN NN   NN   EE
DD     DD   UU      UU   NN  NN  NN   EEEEEEEEEE    PennMush 1.5
DD     DD   UU      UU   NN   NN NN   EE
DD     DD    UU    UU    NN    NNNN   EE
DDDDDDDD .....UUUUUU.... NN      NN   EEEEEEEEEE..............
      ..........................          .........................
   ...................................................................
 ............cogsci.berkeley.edu 4201....................................
...........................................................................


	DuneMUSH is role-playing MUSH set in the universe of
Frank Herbert's _Dune_ in the year 10,196, just after the first book, but
before _Dune Messiah_. The first event in the game will likely be
the coronation of Paul Atreides as Emperor of the Galaxy. What happens
after that is anyone's guess.

	The Dune RPG will be similar to the Belgariad and Mua'kaar
RPG's, but will focus more on group strategies and goals. Factions
(Atreides, the Imperium, the deposed Padishah Emperor, the Bene Gesserit,
Fremen, the Guild, the Bene Tleilax, and other friends) will struggle
for control over the galaxy and the spice.

	Most all of the roles from the book itself have been filled, but
positions are open in all factions at all levels and ranks. You don't have
to be a book-character to be a major player, and you don't have to be a
major player to enjoy yourself.

	Dune is now open to free character creation (no registration
required) at cogsci.berkeley.edu 4201. The RPG will commence on February 1,
Shai-Hulud willing.

	Miscellaneous inquiries requiring email responses can go to:
dunemush@cogsci.berkeley.edu.

	"Ya hya chouhada!"

	- Paul@DuneMUSH


-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
   Paul@DuneMUSH                 |          Alan Schwartz         
Belkira@Belgariad II             | alansz@cogsci.berkeley.edu
 Indena@Mua'kaar                 | UC Berkeley                        
Javelin@Belgariad, and elsewhere | Cognitive Psychology        
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-


-- 
rec.games.mud.announce submissions: rgm-announce@glia.biostr.washington.edu
other stuff related to that group:  rgm-announce-request@glia...
mudlist-related mail:		    mudlist@glia.biostr.washington.edu
other mail of a personal nature:    scott@glia... or scg@mentor.cc.purdue.edu