From: mcdonald@kestrel.edu (Jim McDonald)
Newsgroups: talk.abortion
Subject: Re: Guerrero shoots his foot!
Date: 13 Oct 92 18:07:49 GMT
Organization: Kestrel Institute, Palo Alto, CA


Martin, I've taken your argument and translated it as faithfully as
possible to refer to the process that occurs when two or more zygotes
(or perhaps embryos) fuse to produce something that develops into one
person.  (Medically, such people are called chimeras.)   Note that the 
conclusion of this argument is that zygotes are not, as you put it,
human life (members of homo sapiens).

As I see it, you have three rational choices:

  (1)  Accept my argument (and presumably yours as well).
  (2)  Recant your argument (and presumably deny mine as well).
  (3)  Show how your argument succeeds where mine fails.

Which will it be?  (I'm assuming, of course, you'll choose a rational
option :-)

c164-ad@po.berkeley.edu (Martin Guerrero) writes ...
>In response to the sperm/egg debate again:
>

>Can a human individual be at two places at once (when alive)?  Can
 Can a human individual be at two places at once (when alive)?  Can

>Joe Blow be in La Jolla, and in Anchorage at the same time?  Of course,
 Joe Blow be in La Jolla, and in Anchorage at the same time?  Of course,

>not.  Humans can only be in one place at one time.
 not.  Humans can only be in one place at one time.

>

>Now someone asserts: Eggs/Sperm = human life (members of homo sapiens)
 Now someone asserts: zygote = human life (member of homo sapiens)

>

>Let us assume that the assertion is true.  If it is true, then we,
 Let us assume that the assertion is true.  If it is true, then some people (chimeras),

>at that point in time are both eggs and sperm (separated).  But how
 at that point in time are two or more zygotes (separated).  But how

>can this be?  Can we really be at two places at once?  Can our human lives
 can this be?  Can we really be at two places at once?  Can our human lives

>begin before we are one?  Did the sperm that was you agree to meet up
 begin before we are one?  Did zygote-A that was you agree to meet up

>with the egg that is also you?  You cannot be two places at once, just like
 with zygote-B that is also you?  You cannot be two places at once, just like

>the sperm (which is you) and the egg (which is you).
 zygote-A (which is you) and zygote-B (which is you).

>


>We have a contradiction.  We once assumed eggs/serpm = human life
 We have a contradiction.  We once assumed zygote = human life

>(members of homo sapiens) but since we have a contradiction, it is safe
 (member of homo sapiens) but since we have a contradiction, it is safe

>to say that the alternate assertion, that eggs/sperm != human life
 to say that the alternate assertion, that zygote != human life

>(member of homo sapiens) is true.
 (member of homo sapiens) is true.

>
>---------
>

>Another way of looking at things:
 Another way of looking at things:

>

>Is it possible to have two humans in you? (I mean exactly the same human
 Is it possible to have two humans in you? (I mean exactly the same human

>being one with another human in exactly the same space.  Thus, a pregnant
 being one with another human in exactly the same space.  Thus, a pregnant

>woman and her unborn child, since they are not occupying the exact same
 woman and her unborn child, since they are not occupying the exact same

>space, are not one human entity).  I don't think so.
 space, are not one human entity).  I don't think so.

>


>So let us assume that the assertion that eggs/sperm = human life (members
 So let us assume that the assertion that zygotes = human life (members

>of homo sapiens) with the added assumption that the eggs and the sperm
 of homo sapiens) with the added assumption that two zygotes

>are two different human lives.  Since this is true, then at conception,
 are two different human lives.  Since this is true, then during embryonic development,

>two different human lives come together.  But the problem is, you are
 two different human lives come together.  But the problem is, you are

>exactly one human entity.  So how can two separate human lives produce
 exactly one human entity.  So how can two separate human lives produce

>exactly one human entity?  Didn't we say that it is not possible to 
 exactly one human entity?  Didn't we say that it is not possible to 

>be exactly two humans at one exact time?  From two human lives, there
 be exactly two humans at one exact time?  From two human lives, there

>results only one human life.  This cannot be.  How can Joe Blow merge
 results only one human life.  This cannot be.  How can Joe Blow merge

>with Susan Parker (random name) to produce Joe Parker only?
 with Susan Parker (random name) to produce Sara Jones only?

>

>Thus, since a human cannot exist as exactly two humans, we have a 
 Thus, since a human cannot exist as exactly two humans, we have a 

>contradiction.  We can safely say that the assertion that eggs/sperm
 contradiction.  We can safely say that the assertion that zygotes

>are human life (members of homo sapiens) is false.
 are human life (members of homo sapiens) is false.


Jim McDonald
Xref: sparky talk.abortion:42822 alt.abortion.inequity:4460