From: johnsd2@jec326.its.rpi.edu.its1 (Daniel Norman Johnson)
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Macintosh bigots
Date: 18 Nov 92 19:53:53 GMT
Article-I.D.: rpi.x_y1jpg
Reply-To: johnsd2@jec326.its.rpi.edu.its1
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.

In article Fv@news.cso.uiuc.edu, rvenkate@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Ravikuma Venkateswar) writes:
>johnsd2@jec326.its.rpi.edu.its1 (Daniel Norman Johnson) writes:
>
>>In article 722088782@gmd.de, strobl@gmd.de (Wolfgang Strobl) writes:
>>|>In <ckx1x-l@rpi.edu> johnsd2@jec327.its.rpi.edu.its1 (Daniel Norman Johnson) writes:
>>|>
>>[deletia- sound driver stuff]
>>|>>Remember that if Windows can count the extra stuff like that, so can
>>|>>the Mac. It would get crazy fast, I think.
>>|>
>>|>I don't buy that argument, because it gives the Macintosh an
>>|>unfair advantage :-).
>
>>Oh  well annother good argument down the drain... :)

[deletia- closed system argument]

>>You ->can<- do this but then you ->can<- do that with an IBM
>>PC too. You dont have to; its true that apple is teh only major
>>source of Mac CPUs but you can get keyboards, mice, monitors,
>>video cards, hard drives, memory, etc from other sources. Often
>>cheaper or better.
>
>Okay, is it possible to get a Quadra 950 sans video card, hard drive,
>memory, mouse? If you can, then you can make a comparison.

Last I checked the Quadra never came with a video card, I dont
think it ever comes with a mouse either. Youve got me on the memory-
4 megs are soldered on, itd take a crowbar to get a fully
depopulated Quadra 950. I also think you _can_ get a depopulated
Quadra. You can do that for most Mac anyway, Id be rather surprised
if teh Quadra was an exception.

[deletia- its not expandable! really!]
>>Maybe you do but I dont have the money to burn.
>>If I need a faster system I expect Ill buy an accelerator.
>
>Ah, but accelerators won't work on Macs that don't have a big enough
>power supply. So if you bought an IIsi, you're stuck.

That's true for any system. Presumably IIsi accelerators (do Rockets
work on them?) would need to provide a separate/replacement
power supply.

>>|>Because of that, there isn't a need for "extra software",
>>|>very often.
>
>>Sure you do; you can't very well do ANYTHING with an out-of-the-box
>>Mac 'cept play with the finder. You need some sort of apps, at least.
>
>>|>In the PC world, this is a bit different. Of course, you
>>|>*can* stay with the "single supplier" model here, too, i.e.
>>|>buy everything from IBM, for example. But you don't have to.
>
>>Right.
>>You don't have to with a Mac either, for the most part.
>
>Yeah? As far as your initial purchase, what can you _not_ buy from Apple?

I already listed some things. Some more: a printer, a modem.
I think you do have to use apples power cable tho. :)

>>|>A PC is a case, a power supply, a motherboard, a keyboard,
>>|>a few peripheral cards and a monitor.
>
>>With the Mac the case, power supply, motherbaord and a floppy
>>drive are sold as a unit. This is rather common in the PC world
>>also, no?
>
>But you don't have to.

Quite so. If you want to build-your-own, the Mac is not a good
idea.

>>This is the only bit you must generally be apple-made.
>>Tho there are exceptions- some portables are made with apple roms,
>>but not by apple. And I think there's a tower mac "clone" done the
>>same way.
>
>>|> You man mix and match
>>|>these hardware components almost freely, and make your choice
>>                           ^^^^^^
>>Almost? :)
>
>Precluding stupidity, like buying a tower case and a 50 W power supply.

?? The case requires power? :) I mean, you wouldnt be able to power
too many boards but still..

>>|>of system software from a palette of four or five operating
>>|>systems, including Windows, according to your needs. 
>
>>That's true, and if thats what you want, well the PC delivers it.
>>The Mac does not.
>
>>But I dont think its something most people want (why would they?)
>>And it leads to vicious compatability problems.
>
>>Do think they are so bad? Try running a WPS app in Windows 3.1!
>>Try to run a GeoWorks app (if you can find one) under, well, anything.
>>Try running a Unix binary on OS/2.
>
>But you can run DOS apps in Windows 3.1 and OS/2, and Windows 3.0 apps
>in OS/2 (should be 3.1 by December).
>
>>There are various attemps in there to alleviate this problem- DOS
>>compataibility boxes, windows emulators etc- the compatibility is
>>never 100% (understandably) and may take quite a speed penalty.
>>(particularly, I understand the seamless Windows box of OS/2 is
>>fairly slow)
>
>Just like System 7 is not totally compatible with System 6.

True; it is very much worse on the PC.

> And as far
>as seamless Windows in OS/2, it's because each Windows application has
>its own instance of Windows.

I dont care WHY its true.

> You can run non-seamless Windows, and every
>application after the first doesn't encounter the speed penalty in loading
>Windows, and then the app. Protection is compromised, to some degree,
>but if you need the protection, you can always run seamless.

But this compromises the user interface badly, and is kinda
clumsy to boot.

>>And fitting it all together is all sorts of fun.
>
>Fitting OSs?

I was refering to ALL the components, hardware included.

> No problem. It's easy enough to run Dos+Windows and OS/2
>dual boot. It's kind of lobotomized OS/2 (in terms of the file system)
>but you can use the best OS for a particular task.

This sorta schtick should not (ideally) be necessary, but I do
understand why it is.

[deletia- drivers]
>
>>But you cant count the sound driver because its not sold with any part
>>of your hardware (odd, isn't it?), nor will I count (say) the MPW Shell
>>(free from ftp.apple.com!); Ill let you count Windows (it usually
>>comes with) but I wont count A/UX (which is rarely used).
>
>But we'll let you count the MPW Shell.

And everything else I feel like dragging in?

>>On the other hand, if you really hate it we can just Leap Into The Fray
>>With All the Weird Utilties And So On We Can Think Of. It very likely
>>wont convince me of anything (I dont think it means much), but it may
>>be fun! :)
>

---
			- Dan Johnson
And God said "Jeeze, this is dull"... and it *WAS* dull. Genesis 0:0

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