From: hes@unity.ncsu.edu (Henry E. Schaffer)
Subject: Re: A thought about fully automatic weapons...
Summary:  actually a pretty long diatribe
Organization: North Carolina State University
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 17:31:03 GMT

In article <1992Dec24.012532.29772@sserve.cc.adfa.oz.au> ghm@sserve.cc.adfa.oz.au (Geoff Miller) writes:
>yee@mipg.upenn.edu (Conway Yee) writes:
>
>>On tpg it is frequently stated that fully automatic weapons are less
>>than useful in a militia and that all one really needs is a semi-automatic

  This really isn't quite the argument.  I think it is stated that
full auto is useful in a miltia setting, but that otherwise a
semi-auto fills all needs.

>>weapon.  The only real use of a fully automatic weapon is to lay down a
>>field of fire to suppress the enemy.  Fully automatic fire is difficult 
>>to aim and that it only results in the waste of ammunition.

  Yes - but if suppressive fire is what is needed, then it isn't a
waste.  It usually is a waste if long bursts of full auto fire are
used for other than suppressive fire.
>
>I'm not sure that you have the argument quite correct.  As I see it
>there are two main points which have been raised to rebut the claims
>of some anti-gunners that full-automatic fire is inevitably lethal:
>
>1   In most conceivable scenarios where full-automatic fire is used
>    (except for the area fire situation you mention) an _experienced_
>    rifleman could achieve the same result with a semi-auto or in some
>    cases even a bolt-action rifle with far lower expenditure of
>    ammunition.

  I'll go further and say that even the *same* inexperienced rifleman
would achieve equal or better results with lower expenditure of ammo
with a semi-auto.

  The cutesy way I make this argument is to say that if someone
was walking towards me firing and trying to kill me that I would
hope that he would have his rifle set on full-auto since that would
decrease his chances of hitting me.  Most uninformed people think
that full-auto is some kind of magic mode which guarantees that
the target will not only be hit, but will be totally riddled with
bullets.  They also think that if you hold down the trigger of the
usual full-auto (M-16, AKM, MAC-10, ...) that it will continuously 
spray bullets very accurately for somewhere between 5 minutes and an 
hour, and that they will all go where intended.  This makes the
thought of full-auto weapons *very* frightening - and it is this
fear which leads to political decisions and laws.  It isn't important
whether or not they are right - they are frightened.
>
>2   In the cases where there is a real need for full-auto fire, this
>    can in practice _only_ be applied effectively by an experienced
>    rifleman.
>
>>I have come to question the veracity of the statements which purport to
>>say that fully automatic weapons are not really all that useful.  I speak
>>not from experience but from other data points.
>
>I have no combat experience, but I have used both the FN 7.62mm and the
>M16 5.56mm on the military range.  Obviously, the FN is only semi-auto;
>with the M16, I don't think I ever succeeded in keeping more than 2 rounds
>of a full-auto burst on a torso-sized target at 100 metres  -  and I am
>an experienced target shooter!  Even the military guys spray the 
>landscape as well as the target.

  But aimed fire in full auto mode isn't done at 100 metres.  What
about *short* bursts (say 3 rounds) at 5 - 10 metres?
>
>That is not to say that full-auto fire and burst fire don't have a
>place in the military repertoire;  obviously, they do, but a full-auto
>capability does not automagically turn a mouse into a lion.  Training,
>experience and skill are the requirements.

  No argument - but with training, experience and skill the full-auto
(select fire) weapon provides an increase in capabilities over the
semi-auto weapon.  There are many police SWAT teams which use these
select fire weapons in either assault rifle or subgun models, and
they must think that they get an improvement in capability by doing
so.  Remember that the "double tap" which is often taught for use
with a semi-auto handgun is just a slow burst.  A select-fire full-auto
weapon can always be switched to semi-auto when conditions are
appropriate for taking single shots.  But when speed is important,
then it is a benefit to have the speed-up of full-auto mode.

--henry schaffer