Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: stephenp@cix.compulink.co.uk (Stephen Phillips)
Subject: Re: Conversion Question
Cc: stephenp@cix.compulink.co.uk
Reply-To: stephenp@cix.compulink.co.uk
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 13:11:00 +0000


> +From         : ask@cbnews.cb.att.com (Arthur S. Kamlet)
> +Subject      : Re: Conversion Question
> 
> In article <memo.738484@cix.compulink.co.uk> stephenp@cix.compulink.co.uk writes:
> >In-Reply-To: <1992Nov6.184153.3018@cbnews.cb.att.com> ask@cbnews.cb.att.com (Arthu
r S. Kamlet)
> >
> >> Again, I ask if the response you refer to was not one of compassion
> >> for a woman either whose husband had disappeared or whose husband
> >> refused to grant her a get?  In such a very specific case I have
> >> heard of rulings that declared certain marriages or conversions as
> >> null, but those were not sweeping generalizations.  They never said
> >> to my knowledge that a conservative Bet Din proves the conversion is
> >> not kosher.  They were to help a particular woman in a particular
> >> circumstance.  (And in some cases the Bet Din or rabbi who
> >> officiated at the wedding was consulted in advance, to say the
> >> ruling isn't an insult but rather a way to help out the woman.)
> >> We here in this group should only have the understanding and
> >> compassion of the sources you yourself cite.
> >
> >No, I was not referring to such a case. In fact, yesterday I had a
> >brief look at Igros Moshe (Reb Moshe's Teshuvos) and I cam across a
> >question where a Cohen had married a woman who had been converted
> >through a Conservative Beis Din. A Cohen is not permitted to marry a
> >convert. Reb Moshe held (as far as I can recall) that the conversion
> >was not valid as it was a Conservative one. But even if the wife were
> >to convert through the Orthodox, she would still not be permitted to
> >marry her husband again as he was a Cohen. Thus, both parties would,
> >according to Reb Moshe, have to separate. A very sad case, I think
> >you will agree, but Reb Moshe had no hesitation in upholding the
> >Halachah in reaching his decision.
> 
> A very sad case.  So, let's see what the ruling could have been
> where a Kohen marries a convert, even though prohibited.  Orthodox
> authorities  will generally discourage the marriage in advance, and
> if the marriage proceeds, will actively try to dissolve it.

But I don't think that in such a case the parties could be forced to
divorce, in which case any children would not be Mazerim, but
Chollolim (ie. kosher, but not able to carry out any Priestly
duties).

> So, how could this particular marriage be dissolved?
> 
> Well, the Kohen could have been persuaded to give a get, which he
> may or may not have done.
> 
> Or the ruling could be that the woman is not Jewish and so there is
> no marriage so there need be no get. 
> 
> Thus the Kohen does not have to be persuaded to give a get; the
> marriage is deemed invalid; the law has not been broken!
> 
> This is a brilliant ruling, it seems to me.  It doesn't compromise
> with orthodox understanding of the Halacha preventing a Kohen from
> marrying a convert, but it gets the Kohen out of "living in sin" or
> continuing to break Halacha.
> 
> To use this brilliant ruling, which removes the onus of violating
> this mitzvah from the Kohen, is not, it seems to me, any sort of
> blanket condemnation of a Conservative Bet Din.

But surely the parties would have been in a much better position if
the conversion had been treated as valid in the first instance. At
least then they would have been able to stay together, even though
the Rabbis might try and persuade them to divorce. Now that the
conversion is considered to have been invalid, there is no way that
they could marry in an Orthodox Shul.


> I have no idea if this happened, but it would not surprise me if Reb
> Moshe talked with the head of the conservative Bet Din:  Say, I have
> this problem; a Kohen married one of your converts, and it just
> won't do to have him violate that mitzvah.  I'd plan to say the
> conversion did not meet my understanding of the Halacha and so the
> marriage is not really a marriage?  OK?

I'm sure you'd like to think this was the case, but I very much doubt
it.

> I am glad you posted this information.  It shows how decent are the
> great rabbis.

How kind of you to say so. I don't think, though, that a Rabbi can be
considered great unless he is "decent" or indeed a Tzadik.


> >> >Belief doesn't come into it. The fact is that Conservative
> >> >conversions are not recognised by the Orthodox. If you find that fact
> >> >hard to swallow, well I'm sorry but there's nothing I can do about
> >> >it.
> >> 
> >> You know, I have lived in a moderately large town in Ohio for about
> >> 16 years.  It is not  a major center of  Jewish public opinion, it
> >> is not New York or Crown Heights or Chicago or Jersulem or Bnei
> >> Brak, and so is not in the public spotlight.
> >> 
> >> And the strange thing is there are Jews and rabbis who are reform
> >> and conservative and orthodox and there are Lubavitcher Chasidim and
> >> we all get along together.  I have never seen one rabbi insult
> >> another, or even laypeople insult each other.  And if a reform or
> >> conservative Bet Din asks the orthodox rabbi in charge of the mikveh
> >> (we have only one in the city) for permission to use the mikveh for
> >> a conversion, the rabbi always says yes!
> >
> >
> >We're back to insults now. Let me repeat, I am not trying to insult
> >anybody.
> >
> 
> 
> 
> ?????
> 
> 
> 
> I have gone out of my way to avoid insults.
>
> I have tried very hard to demonstrate that here in Columbus we avoid
> insults.  I say I have never seen either rabbis or laypeople insult
> each other.
> 
> And you reply "We're back to insults."
> 
> 
> I'm at a loss to reply.

I was trying to make the point that it was you who were accusing me
of being insulting, which I deny.



> >> And if a convert enters an orthodox synagogue he or she is treated
> >> as any other Jew.
> >
> >I would have to question the judgment of an Orthodox Rabbi who treats
> >a Conservative convert as halachicly Jewish. Do you know of any cases
> >where such a person has applied to marry in an Orthodox Shul? If so,
> >I would be interested to know whether he or she was required to
> >undergo another conversion through the Orthodox.
> 
> OK, you are free to question their judgments  But I have spoken with
> them from time to time, and I have a large amount of respect for
> them.
> 
> I don't know of specific cases of marriage, but I do know of other
> synagogue honors conveyed to conservative converts in orthodox
> shuls.  And I will not question the judgments of these orthodox
> rabbis, respected members of the RCA, because you happen to
> question their judgment.

I think you have to understand where I am "coming from", as it were.
In England the divide between the Orthodox and the Conservative and
Reform movements is much wider than it is in the States. My wife is
from Schenectady N.Y., a small city with smallish O, C and R
congregations. I've seen how the 3 are much closer to each other than
they would be in any city in England. For instance, there was a Rabbi
in the Orthodox Shul who made some statements with which a whole
group of the congregants strongly disagreed and they promptly went
and joined the Conservative Shul. This just would not happen here.


> >> Why is this?  I think in a smaller town Jews don't have the glare of
> >> publicity, don't have to show any sort of holier than thou attitudes
> >> to the world.

You could well be right. I think also that in the States each Rabbi
is to a large extent autonomous and doesn't need always to refer to
some central authority. Here in England, most Orthodox Shuls are
under the authority of the Chief Rabbi and the London Beis Din and
all questions of marriage, divorce, conversions, etc. have to be
referred to the Beis Din whose decision is final.

> >
> >The Torah is no different in Columbus to Chicago or New York.
> 
> Aren't we talking of people here?
> 
> >> More important, and a lesson that many but not all of us have
> >> learned:   it is really Ok to live together, to be nice to
> >> one another, to care about one's fellow Jews, to say a kind word
> >> when it's as easy to cast an insult, to do teshuva all the time and
> >> not merely at Yom Kippur.  These things are possible and you will be
> >> pleased to know the orthodox are still orthodox, the Chasidim are
> >> still Chasidim, the conservative and reform are still conservative
> >> and reform.  Getting along together did not cause the mezzuah to
> >> fall off the door or cast an evil eye on anyone.  But it did promote
> >> peace within the Jewish community, and discouraged those who would
> >> seek the opposite.
> >> 
> >> When I read statements of people who hate, I am saddened more when
> >> these people are Jews.  I do not think there is a commandment to
> >> hate our neighbor.
> >
> >I don't hate any of my fellow Jews, be they Orthodox, Conservative,
> >Reform or unaffiliated. So kindly quit making such statements.
> 
> I am sorry you thought this was directed at you.  It is directed at
> people who hate.

Fair enough.

>
> Let your words declare if you do or not:
> 
> >What I will say is that I have no regard for those leaders of Jewish
> >movements whose actions are contrary to the Torah and result in a
> >watering down of Torah true Judaism and in some cases result in much
> >anguish when, God Forbid, Mamzerus occurs. The fact that Conservative
> >conversions are not valid is not an insurmountable problem; a person
> >can always undergo a further conversion through the Orthodox to cure
> >the invalidity. What causes inurmountable problems, however, is the
> >fact that Gittin (Divorce Documents) granted through the Conservative
> >and Reform are not valid and any children born to a woman divorced
> >through the C or R from a subsequent marriage are Mamzerim as the
> >woman is considered still to be an Eishes Ish (married to her first
> >husband).
> 
> 
> So now we move from "conservative conversions are invalid" to
> "conservative gittin are invalid."  Why?  Where does this occur?
> 
>    Where is there a single documented case of mamzerut who 
>    resulted from a marriage between a man and a woman who
>    received a conservative get?

Such cases are usually documented in works such as Igros Moshe and I
will consult it again to see if I can come across any. Certainly,
when I spoke to our Rav (who has worked with the London Beis Din) he
said that Conservative Gittin are not valid.

> There may have been attempts to "fix up" or override a conservative
> get with an orthodox get.  I view this as political and not
> Halacha.

I will not deny that some Orthodox Botei Din do sometimes allow
political considerations to creep into their judgments. But I do
believe that for the most part only halachic considerations are taken
into account.

> >In such cases, no amount of compassion can help, although one's heart
> >goes out to such unfortunate people. It is true that Reb Moshe was,
> 
> 
> Which people?  What cases?   Where is there  a single documented
> case of mamzerut because the woman received a conservative get?

See above.


>
> >in certain cases involving a Reform marriage, able to declare that
> >the marriage was invalid in the first instance and a Get was not
> >required. But I do not believe that his opinion was universally
> >accepted.
> 
> So some authorities would rather see people suffer than accept his
> opinion?   Any sources for this?  Any names of authorities who
> allowed endless suffering because they refused to accept his
> opinion?   The law is in our hands, after all.  And it is to live
> by, to spend our lives with, not to cause endless suffering.  The
> great rabbis find ways to avoid such suffering.

The law may well be in our hands ("Lo Bashomayim Hi") but it is
nevertheless to be observed and not to be tampered with. As to
authorities that do not accept Reb Moshe's opinion on Reform
marriages, I believe that the London Beis Din are one.

> 
> I can't help being reminded of how many bureaucracies work.
> 
> Consider an agency set up to help people, to find ways to grant
> their requests, to say "Yes" to their needs.
> 
> At the bottom are entry level employees who know a few regulations
> and try to follow them to the letter, not truly knowing why.
> 
> If a decision might be Yes or No, they will almost always say No
> unless it is a clear cut yes.  That is how they view their job.
> 
> In the middle are managers who understand more about why the rules
> are there, and who can often find ways to say Yes within the rules.
> They might have to balance two rules against each other, but will
> often find ways to help their clients.
> 
> But at the very top are those whose attitude is to find a way to
> always say yes.  To enforce the rules, to be sure, but to have such
> a wide understanding of the reasons the agency is there that their
> very purpose for being there is to be helpful, to find Yes when
> others find No.
> 
> And isn't is true that the higher up you go in any organization the
> easier it is to find someone with the knowledge and authority to say
> Yes?

There is a saying - "Ko'ach De'Hetera Odif" - which in effect means
that it is very easy to prohibit something, but it requires much
greater knowledge to permit something. This was the greatness of Reb
Moshe. If he permitted something, then you knew that he had brought
to bear all his great knowledge and wisdom in the attempt to find the
Heter. But even Reb Moshe drew the line at overstepping the
boundaries of halachah and (as in the case I cited above) was not
able to find a Heter.


> Maybe one of the purposes of life is to find ways to say yes.

One of the major banks in the U.K. once had an advertising campaign
with the slogan "The Bank that likes to say "Yes"". I think you will
agree that this bank must have on occasions said "no" where
circumstances were such that it would not have been good business to
say "yes".


Shabbat Shalom.

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Stephen (Yisroel) Phillips      Tel: 44-895-442141
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Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish