HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Subject: ICL 16-bit ethernet card drivers ?
Reply-To: rob@sound.demon.co.uk
Distribution: world
X-Mailer: cppnews $Revision: 1.20 $
Organization: Sound & Vision BBS (UK) 0932 252323
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 23:34:12 +0000

I have a couple of ICL 16-bit ethernet cards, which are not directly supported
under netware lite...
Does an ICL.COM exist that I can slot directly in place of NE2000.COM ?
Where can I find it ?

-rob-

=----------------------------------.----------------------------------------=
| Nominal  : Rob Barth             | RJB Communications (+44) (0)932 253131 |
| InterNet : rob@sound.demon.co.uk | Sound & Vision BBS (+44) (0)932 252323 |
| FidoNet  : sysop, 2:254/14       |  The best UK BBS with a full UseNet &  |
| Nyx      : rbarth@nyx.cs.du.edu  | Internet Email feed. All hours/speeds. |
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Newsgroups: comp.dcom.lans.ethernet
From: blc@med.ge.com (Brett Chapman)
Subject: 10BaseT Questions
Keywords: 10BaseT
Organization: G.E. Medical Systems - Ultrasound
Distribution: usa
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 92 02:09:41 GMT


	I have a simple Question on 10BaseT.  I see that the equipment we use
use pins 1, 2, 3, and 6 on an 8 contact connector.  This is actually not too
convenient.  If you use standard 8 wire (4-pair) cable, pins 1 and 2 are pairs,
but pins 3 and 6 are not.

	1.)  Does anyone know why we use pins 1, 2, 3, and 6?

	2.)  Is there any way to measure the effect of having 3 and 6 in
		separate pairs?  Has anyone else measured this?

	3.)  Is there a document on the Internet that tells me any of this?

	Please, respond directly to me and I will post a summary.

	Have a Happy New Year!

  GG	EEEEEE	M    M	  SS
 G  G	EE	MM  MM	S    S		Brett Chapman
G	EE	M MM M	 S		G.E. Medical Systems
G  GGG	EEEEEE	M    M	   S		Ultrasound Systems Administrator
G    G	EE	M    M	    S		chapmanB@med.ge.com
 G  G	EE	M    M	S    S		sun.com!sunbrew!gemed!chapmanB
  GG	EEEEEE	M    M	  SS
--
 - 
Newsgroups: comp.dcom.lans.ethernet
From: seifert@netcom.com (Rich Seifert)
Subject: Re: 10BaseT Questions
Keywords: 10BaseT
Organization: Networks & Communications Consulting
Distribution: usa
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1992 20:37:16 GMT

In article <1992Dec27.020941.12384@mr.med.ge.com>, blc@med.ge.com (Brett Chapman) writes:
> 
> 	I have a simple Question on 10BaseT.  I see that the equipment we use
> use pins 1, 2, 3, and 6 on an 8 contact connector.  This is actually not too
> convenient. If you use standard 8 wire (4-pair) cable, pins 1 and 2 are pairs,
> but pins 3 and 6 are not.
> 
> 	1.)  Does anyone know why we use pins 1, 2, 3, and 6?
> 

Actually, pins 1/2 and 3/6 ARE paired if the outlets are wired according
to the EIA building wiring standard (1/2. 3/6. 4/5. 7/8 are paired). I believe
that this is compatible with ISDN-wired telephone systems.

> 	2.)  Is there any way to measure the effect of having 3 and 6 in
> 		separate pairs?  Has anyone else measured this?
>

No need to measure. It won't work for any reasonable distance (more than
a few feet at best). The impedance will be wrong, and the crosstalk
and EMI ingress horrendous.
 
> 	3.)  Is there a document on the Internet that tells me any of this?
>

Unfortunately, IEEE and EIA standards are not on-line. I believe there
is an Ethernet FAQ which could help.
 
-- 
Rich Seifert                    Networks and Communications Consulting
seifert@netcom.com              (408) 996-0922
                                (408) 996-2860 FAX
"... specialists in Local Area Networks and Data Communications systems"
Newsgroups: comp.dcom.lans.ethernet
From: skl@wimsey.bc.ca (Samuel Lam)
Subject: Re: Mfg MAC Addresses
Reply-To: skl@wimsey.bc.ca (Samuel Lam)
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 07:41:36 GMT

In article <1992Dec28.194131.15187@PacBell.COM>, wrote:
>does anyone out there have the latest (relative) listing of manufacturer's
>MAC addresses? ... We are doing a little network analysis and have come
>across '00 60 8C' and can't figure out who the vendor is.

In the 11-Nov-92 version of Michael A. Patton's "List of codes used
on 802.3 and EtherNet networks" (available via anonymous FTP from
ftp.lcs.mit.edu:pub/map/EtherNet-codes) the manufacturer for 00-60-8C
is listed as "3COM (1990 onward)".

This list is almost always more up to date than its counterpart
in RFC 1340 as it is revised continuously rather than published
periodically.  Please noted that this two lists are both unofficial
as the IEEE currently does not publish an official one.  (They
are working on it though.)

...Sam
-- 
<skl@wimsey.bc.ca> -- Connectivity Technology Inc.
Newsgroups: comp.dcom.lans.ethernet
From: seifert@netcom.com (Rich Seifert)
Subject: Re: Mfg MAC Addresses
Organization: Networks & Communications Consulting
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 01:51:04 GMT

In article <1992Dec28.194131.15187@PacBell.COM>, krsato@srv.PacBell.COM (Kenn Sato) writes:
> I'm sorry to be using bandwidth for this FAQ-like request, but ...
> does anyone out there have the latest (relative) listing of manufacturer's
> MAC addresses? And could they post it or e-mail it to me.  We are doing
> a little network analysis and have come across '00 60 8C' and can't figure
> out who the vendor is. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
> 

RFC 1340 is the "Assigned Numbers List" and is the best general authority
on this stuff. Note that it is "unofficial"; There is no officially
sanctioned list of vendor block assignments. 

The bad news is that 00-60-8C is not in the list in RFC1340 (I just checked).

There are quite a few assignments which are not, mostly because they may
have been assigned but never built into a large number of products
(you never see them around).

Remember that vendor assignment are marginally useful. An Intel PC
running Novell NetWare on a 3Com NIC card would have a 3Com address
(unless 3Com OEM'ed the board from someone else, which is entirely
possible and legal. Then it would have the "someone else's" block
assignment, unless 3Com partitioned their own block and gave some
to a subcontractor, which is also possible. See what I mean by
marginally useful?)



-- 
Rich Seifert                    Networks and Communications Consulting
seifert@netcom.com              (408) 996-0922
                                (408) 996-2860 FAX
"... specialists in Local Area Networks and Data Communications systems"
From: msz@ESD.3Com.COM (Mark Zaller)
Newsgroups: comp.dcom.lans.ethernet
Subject: Re: Ethernet card
Date: 23 Dec 92 02:00:53 GMT

mbeyer@zamboni.NSP-SERVER1 (Mark D Beyer) writes:

>> What's wrong with the 3c503?  

>I forget the exact model numbers, but I think 3COM has much better
>adapters than the 3C503 now.  The 3c503 wasn't particularly fast.
>I think there's a 3c507.
>--

The 3C503 is a good card with compatibility being its best asset. The 3C507 is 
an excellent server card. 3Com's best card today (and least expensive), 
especially for clients is the 3C509 (EtherLink III). It also autoconfigures 
and it is fast.

-Mark Zaller
From: winter@iex.UUCP (Rob Winter)
Newsgroups: comp.dcom.lans.ethernet
Subject: How many analyzers out there?
Date: 31 Dec 92 21:23:18 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: IEX Corporation

I am looking for data regarding how many and what kind of Ethernet network
analyzers are in place in the USA.  Any suggestions on how to get this data
or any feel for the numbers would be appreciated.  Thanks.

=====[Robert Winter, IEX Corp., winter@iex.com]==============================
In the magnets of computers will be stored blend of sunset over wheat fields.
Low thunder of gazelle. Light, sweet wind on high ground.
Vacuum stillness spreading from a thick snowfall.  Men will sit in rooms 
upon the smooth, scrubbed earth or stand in tunnels on the moon and instruct
themselves in how it was.  Nothing will be lost.  Nothing will be lost.
=================================================[Alan P. Lightman]==========
Newsgroups: comp.dcom.lans.misc
From: hilditch@fermat.Inria.Fr (Bruce Hilditch)
Subject: loopback packets 
Keywords: ethercode 9000
Organization: Mayo Foundation, Rochester, MN
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 92 20:50:23 GMT

we recently saw a spate of "loopback protocol" traffic, i.e., ethercode 9000.  pretty steady
pattern of 12% level on a 7by24 basis.  is this the DEC "loop node" stuff run amok?  or something
to do with a loopback address on a unixoid box?  i would dig further to find this out for 
myself but the alligator level is quite high this week...  email reply would be quite adequate.
thanks in advance.  -bruce-

hilditch@mayo.edu

Newsgroups: comp.dcom.lans.misc
From: mdivya@world.std.com (Marigowda Divya)
Subject: Token-Ring
Summary: Token-Ring
Keywords: token-ring
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 01:01:37 GMT

where is the Token-Ring Newsgroup?  Or does it come under
 comp.dcom.lans.misc.


divya
GSOFT
(mdivya@world.std.com)

Xref: sparky comp.dcom.lans.misc:1073 comp.sys.novell:10997
From: mju@mudos.ann-arbor.mi.us (Marc Unangst)
Newsgroups: comp.dcom.lans.misc,comp.sys.novell
Subject: Re: INFO NEEDED: Mutual file server for NFS *AND* Novell networks?
Followup-To: comp.sys.novell
Date: 31 Dec 1992 21:31:40 -0500
Organization: The Programmers' Pit Stop, Ann Arbor MI
NNTP-Posting-Host: mudos.ann-arbor.mi.us

[Newsgroups: line heavily edited -- it almost looks like he looked
through a list of newsgroups and posted to every group that might be
even remotely relevant.]

In article <C0538L.DB@qualis.com> mikeh@qualis.com (Michael T. Horne) writes:
>Basically I'm looking for a file server that can serve both Novell clients
>and NFS clients that are on separate nets, possibly linked via a SLIP
>telephone link.  Visually, it looks like this:

What you want is Novell Netware 3.11 with Netware NFS.  It will
probably run you somewhere between $6,000 and $15,000, depending on
how many users your Netware license is for.  Plus, of course, the cost
of the PC hardware.  It will do everything you need, except for
SLIP -- I don't think Novell has any SLIP support.  You will probably
have to get a router with SLIP or PPP capabilities, attach it to your
net, and have your remote stations dial into the router in order to
talk to the server.

-- 
Marc Unangst, N8VRH         | "Of course, in order to understand this you
mju@mudos.ann-arbor.mi.us   |  have to remember that the nucleus of the atom
                            |  is squishy."
                            |    -W. Scheider, from a Physics lecture
Newsgroups: comp.dcom.lans.misc
From: ben@datacomm.ucc.okstate.edu (Ben James)
Subject: Re: Token-Ring
Keywords: token-ring
Organization: Oklahoma State University, Stillwater, OK
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1993 23:35:04 GMT

In article <BzzxIp.M2E@world.std.com> mdivya@world.std.com (Marigowda Divya) writes:
>where is the Token-Ring Newsgroup?  Or does it come under
> comp.dcom.lans.misc.
>

There isn't one! 

Some good places to post are here,novell, or tcp-ip.
Don't know where you should Post, depends on what you wan't to know/say.

Ben James
From: pkr@messua.informatik.rwth-aachen.de (Peter Krueger)
Newsgroups: comp.dcom.lans.misc
Subject: How to get a SCSI->Ethernet - Interface?
Date: 30 Dec 92 11:37:47 GMT
Organization: Rechnerbetrieb Informatik - RWTH Aachen
NNTP-Posting-Host: messua.informatik.rwth-aachen.de
Keywords: SCSI, Ethernet, LAN

Hi,

some time ago I read about a converter between SCSI and ethernet.
Unfortunately, I cannot remember, where I read this article. Since I am
*now* desparetly in need of such a device, I was wondering, if anybody
knew, where to find these, how much I would be charged per device and,
if there is any decent technical documentation...

Please send e-mail, for my news feed does not always work reliably...

Thanx in advance


Peter Krueger (pkr@pool.informatik.rwth-aachen.de)
-- 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| pkr@cip-s01.informatik.rwth-aachen.de					      |
|		      Wer laechelt anstatt zu toben, ist immer der Staerkere. |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Newsgroups: comp.dcom.lans,comp.protocols.tcp-ip
From: dalk@login.dkuug.dk (Lars Kalsen)
Subject: Mixed trafic - x.25/TCP/IP
Organization: DKnet
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1993 22:01:12 GMT

Hi - and Happy New Year,

We are considering a new network which connect all of our different
sites through a WAN. We will probably buy some CISCO routers. 

The trafic which is routed through the CISCO equipment is split
in two

       - FTAM trafic based on x25 connections             
    
       - Interactive terminal sessions based on TCP/IP on an Ethernet.


The CISCO routers can mix these two kinds of input intp one 2Mbit channel
which connects the different sites.

My concern is now : Will the interactive traffic suffer when a heavy
FTAM transport is taking place ?. Will the file transfers affect the
responsetimes for the interactive traffic to a large extend ?.

Is you have any experience with this please E-mail (or fax) me the 
information

~e


Newsgroups: comp.dcom.lans,comp.os.ms-windows.misc,comp.os.ms-windows.setup
From: wstuartj@lucky.ecn.purdue.edu (W Stuart Jones)
Subject: Win for Work Groups & Telnet & Novell ???
Summary: How do you use telnet and Novell with Windows for Work Groups?
Keywords: novell ip tcp/ip telnet windows work groups
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network
Date: 31 Dec 92 16:03:57 GMT

Has anyone had success configuring Windows for Work Groups for use with both
telnet capabilities and Novell 3.11 connectivity?  I'm hoping to use either
NCSA telnet and QVNET with in Windows for Work Groups.  Any advice or sample
configuration files would be greatly appreciated.

Please e-mail.

Thanks in advance,

Wesley Stuart Jones
--
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
%%  Wesley Stuart Jones         jonesw@hasbro.wes.mot.com               %%
%%                              wstuartj@ecn.purdue.edu                 %%
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
Newsgroups: comp.dcom.lans.fddi
From: bdboyle@erenj.com (Bryan D. Boyle)
Subject: Cabletron FDMMIM firmware upgrade
Reply-To: bdboyle@erenj.com (Bryan D. Boyle)
Organization: Exxon Research & Engineering
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 18:04:48 GMT


Just as an aside for those of us using Cabletron FDMMIMs in our network(s),
verison 1.02.02 is available for the firmware that corrects a problem with
the bridge suddenly getting real stupid and apparently not working.  

The basic problem centers around the fact that in order to do translational
briding, the MIM has to disassemble the packet(s) for reassembly on the
other side.  If the packet disassembles as junk, the packet is reassembled, and
discarded.  However, in versions of the firmware up to 1.02, the buffer
(there are 32 of them) wasn't released for reuse, so, at some point, 
the FDDI ring seems to be out of service due to the cpu on the card running
out of buffers to use for legitimate packets.  

Solution is version 1.02.02 of the firmware, flash downloadable from
remote lanview or a tftp server.  Customer support in NH can provide...

Anyone else see this problem, or has it only been me????

--
Bryan D. Boyle     |Exxon doesn't pay me to voice their opinions...
Senior Engineer    |Semper ubi sub ubi.
bdboyle@erenj.com  |On a clear disk, you can seek forever...
From: marc@piglet.uni-paderborn.de (Marc Gumbold)
Newsgroups: comp.dcom.lans.fddi
Subject: Which copper PMDs?
Date: 28 Dec 1992 16:54:04 +0100
Organization: Universitaet Paderborn, Germany
NNTP-Posting-Host: piglet.uni-paderborn.de
Summary: Need overview.
Keywords: Copper, CDDI, TPDDI, PMD

Hi FDDIers,

it seems I lost orientation in the jungle of the various kinds of
copper PMDs (i.e. FDDI over twisted pair copper cable).

I heard at least of STP (shielded twisted pair), UTP (unshielded TP),
CDDI (Copper Distributed Data Interface), and TPDDI (guess :). 

Things I need to know are: 

o  Which of the above (and possible others) are only different names
   for the same thing? 

o  What are the technical specifications for the various technologies?

o  Are there (real or de-facto) standardization efforts for copper PMDs?
   If so, what is their status?

o  If there is a kind of best-seller or shooting star among the various
   copper FDDIs, who is it, and for what reasons?

If there's anyone out who could help me answering some of my
questions, or provide me with pointers on where to find answers, I'd
be quite glad, as I'm to write an article about FDDI (no problem at
all, besides this copper stuff, which should nevertheless not be left
out). 

I'll be happy to summarize, if there is enough response.

Happy new year ("Must I, Miss Sophie?" :) to y'all,
Marc
-- 
  Marc Gumbold                                       Universitaet-GH Paderborn
  Email: marc@hni.uni-paderborn.de                   Heinz Nixdorf Institut
  Phone: +49 5251 60 3382                            Pohlweg 47-49
  Fax:   +49 5251 60 3426                            W-4790 Paderborn, Germany
Newsgroups: comp.dcom.lans.fddi
From: rich@grebyn.com (Richard Lawrence)
Subject: NFS over FDDI considerations
Organization: Grebyn Timesharing
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 05:04:48 GMT

Forgive me if this is a FAQ.

I seem to remember coming across a document detailing special
considerations when running NFS over FDDI. I can't remember the
specifics, but there was an optimal and inefficient way to do it, and
the article implied that many people were doing it the inefficient way.

The only thing I can think of is configuring the MTU for better
throughput with NFS, but I can't think of why this would have a
significant effect...anyone? Offhand I can't remember if Sun decided 4K
or 8K packets were the sanctioned unit for NFS..probably 8K, but I'm
guessing there.

-- 
Rich Lawrence, Synoptics Systems Engineer  DOD#9630  rich@grebyn.com
     '92 Seca II "Yuri"  CI$:71101,2272  GEnie:R.LAWRENCE14
   216 years ago my government gave me certain inalienable rights.
     Since then, they've been trying to correct their mistake.
From: Stafford@Vax2.Winona.MSUS.EDU (John Stafford)
Newsgroups: alt.save.the.earth
Subject: Re: Paper Question
Date: 28 Dec 92 15:34:31 GMT
Followup-To: alt.save.the.earth,sci.environment
Organization: MSUS

In article <BzqH6w.BJ8@willamette.edu>, mhodson@willamette.edu (Matthew
Hodson) wrote:
> 
> I have a problem for all of you.  I work for the administrative computing
> department at Willamette University.  In the last two months, we have used
> aproximately 100,000 sheets of 11x14 greenbar paper. 

Amazing, isn't it, how computing increases the proliferation of 
worthless paper in college administrative effort?  My bet is that
the heaviest users are, in descending order: Admissions, Accounting
and Alumni/Development.

I have no answer, but want to know what you plan to do when you find
out how many trees were wasted?
Newsgroups: alt.save.the.earth,sci.environment
From: gary@ke4zv.uucp (Gary Coffman)
Subject: Re: Paper Question
Reply-To: gary@ke4zv.UUCP (Gary Coffman)
Organization: Destructive Testing Systems
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 17:59:09 GMT

In article <BzqH6w.BJ8@willamette.edu> mhodson@willamette.edu (Matthew Hodson) writes:
>I have a problem for all of you.  I work for the administrative computing
>department at Willamette University.  In the last two months, we have used
>aproximately 100,000 sheets of 11x14 greenbar paper.  I have calculated that
>to be 1750 lbs.  My question is, how many trees gave their life to print out
>the afore mentioned 100,000 sheets?

If the papermaking process were 100% efficient, one pine tree, one foot
in diameter and 79 feet tall. Of course the process isn't 100% efficient,
so call it two pine trees, or about 1/100th acre of forest. Pulpwood weighs
about 22 pounds per cubic foot.

Gary
-- 
Gary Coffman KE4ZV          |    You make it,     | gatech!wa4mei!ke4zv!gary
Destructive Testing Systems |    we break it.     | uunet!rsiatl!ke4zv!gary
534 Shannon Way             |    Guaranteed!      | emory!kd4nc!ke4zv!gary      
Lawrenceville, GA 30244     |                     | emory!ke4zv!gary@gatech.edu
Newsgroups: alt.save.the.earth,sci.environment
From: gary@ke4zv.uucp (Gary Coffman)
Subject: Re: Paper Question
Reply-To: gary@ke4zv.UUCP (Gary Coffman)
Organization: Destructive Testing Systems
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 02:28:44 GMT

In article <1hqt43INNgdc@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> bg055@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Stewart Rowe) writes:
>
>Gary Coffman said: "pulpwood weighs about 22 lbs. per cu. ft."
> 
>Something amiss here. Since _water_ weighs 62.4 lb. per cu. ft., 
>that pulpwood would be floating mighty high!

Wood floats. :-)

That's actually the dry matter weight, live weight is greater because
of water content.

Gary
-- 
Gary Coffman KE4ZV          |    You make it,     | gatech!wa4mei!ke4zv!gary
Destructive Testing Systems |    we break it.     | uunet!rsiatl!ke4zv!gary
534 Shannon Way             |    Guaranteed!      | emory!kd4nc!ke4zv!gary      
Lawrenceville, GA 30244     |                     | emory!ke4zv!gary@gatech.edu
Newsgroups: alt.save.the.earth,news.groups
From: solovay@netcom.com (Andrew Solovay)
Subject: RFD: alt.pave.the.earth
Followup-To: misc.misc
Summary: Just to keep things balanced...
Organization: Free Faerie Front
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1993 05:01:42 GMT

Perhaps the opposing view ought to have a forum as well.

Besides Congress, I mean.
-- 
Andrew Solovay    

"I is not now, nor has I ever been, a Human Bein'!"
                ---Pogo Possum
Newsgroups: alt.save.the.earth
From: tjones@willamette.edu (Tyler Jones)
Subject: Manufacturing suggestion (take 2)
Organization: Willamette University, Salem OR
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 00:20:49 GMT

	I'm sure that most people know about the marking of plastics by
plastics manufacturers in the United States.  Plastic comes in 7 different
types, and so containers made from one of those seven plastics is labelled
with a number (1 through 7) inside a recycling symbol, thus making it easier
to recycle (because people can separate their plastics instead of wondering
"which type is this shampoo bottle, anyway").  In my town, it works rather
well - we can recycle #2, #4, and #6, and it's not hard at all to separate the
types since they're labelled (with a 2, 4, and 6), and the recycling company
will only take plastics that are labelled anyway.  My point is that the
numbering system has made plastics recycling a lot clearer and easier to
understand - the #2s all go together, the #4s only go with more #4s, etc.  So,
how about labelling EVERYTHING with a similar system?  Instead of just
plastics, you could label tin containers, aluminum containers, cardboard,
glass (although glass is fairly easy to recognize), etc.  The system could be
based on what is recyclable with other things, such as cardboard and
paperboard (kraft paper; cereal boxes).  Things like soup cans would have a
recycle symbol with a "T" (for tin) in it.  Pop cans would have an "A", cereal
and shoe boxes would have "C"s.  I think that this would make for a clarity in
recycling of everything, making A. more people aware of what they can recycle,
and B. it easier and clearer to separate/recycle those items.
	I am looking for comments on whether this sounds like a useful idea. 
Please mail suggestions, comments, and/or criticizms to tjones@willamette.edu.

-- 
[ tjones@willamette.edu                    ]
[ aka N7XIF                       _________]
[ \_________      WILL U SKATE  _/         ]
[ _0_____0_________/\/\/\/\/\/\/           ]
Xref: sparky alt.save.the.earth:1448 sci.environment:13874