From: radams@BNR.CA (Rodney Adams)
Subject: Re: Etiquette - or lack thereof
Reply-To: "Rodney Adams" <RADAMS@BNR.CA>
Organization: Bell-Northern Research, Ltd.
Date: Fri, 02 Oct 1992 20:10:16 GMT

In article <1992Oct2.092636.21188@tfs.com>, ecsd@tfs.com (Eric C. S. Dynamic) writes:
|> "Rodney Adams" <RADAMS@BNR.CA> writes:
|> >ecsd@tfs.com (Eric C. S. Dynamic) writes:
|> >|> When we are all naked, we are all equal, because we are all human.
|> >Are we?  Do the murderers, the rapists, the child molestors have equal claim on 
|> >being human?  If so, then "being human" is something in which I want no part.
|> 
[...]
|> We can put all these people in prison, but that will not cure them.
|> I suspect that many of these people could be rehabilitated before their
|> grievances become manifest in those behaviors. And our society - lest I
|> anticipate you below - could quit producing those people. 

This is something that I have pondered before, though perhaps not nearly
enough.  How do you suggest we go about changing society to eliminate these
evils?  I have often wondered what the world would be like if everyone had
equal opportunity for good education and means of living.  The world would
be some much better, so mind-bendingly alien from what we now experience.
But then I stumble over the thought that so much evil seems to come from
within people, and is not all the results of a harsh environment.  Falling
prey to the animal within may account for much of the murder and rape, but
what animalistic justification is there for Dahmer, Manson, and company?
And is yielding to the animal a trait of humanity?  We are given lordship
over the animals in this world, most dangerous of these the animal within.
But being human is to have control over this animal, and thus do I separate
myself from those who have not this control.

[...]
|> >If prejudice it is to despise the evils of some, then so be it, but I do
|> >not hold such "people" as being equals.  I hate the news, because it usually
|> >does nothing but reaffirm my views of society.  Call me conservative if you will,
|> >but I will also claim no ties to the drunkenness, druggedness, and promiscuity
|> >all too common in my "peers."
|> 
|> "Promiscuous" is a self-defining word. The people who use it believe that it
|> has meaning. I am inclined to think not.

Promiscuity, for me, would include adultery and, before marriage, sexual
relations with anyone who you do not intend to marry.  I admit that my
definition is more conservative than many people's, those less so than 
others'.  I "go where no man has gone before," and the idea of anything
else repulses me.  And I also will not betray the trust of my spouse, even
before I ever met her.  Yes, these views are personal and subjective, but
they are not without meaning, because they contribute to the sanctity of 
marriage and of love, and these have more meaning to me than anything else
ever could.

By the way, I do consider homosexual relations (which I assume you have had,
since you mention your involvement on soc.bi, which I assume is a forum for
bisexuals) a perversity.  Even casting religious beliefs aside, such relations
are entirely unnatural, as they can never lead to offspring.  Because of this,
I am enclined to believe, as some researchers have suggested, that homosexuality
is caused by a genetic defect.  After all, it definitely does not contribute
to the survival of the species.  This does not cause me to hate such 
individuals, and indeed I have worked with and came to respect such an
individual, but the act itself I can see as nothing less than disgusting.
Why would anyone not born with such a genetic defect actually choose to commit
such perversity?  I have even heard that some study showed that most people do
have some homosexual experience sometime in their lives, but I can honestly say
that I have never once had such a desire.  I do not hate or despise you, by the 
way.  I only seek understanding, and I trust you will take my openness in 
stride.  You make me think about what I believe, and I welcome that.

|> I have used drugs, and I do still, and I probably always will. Experience
|> is a great teacher. I have abused myself with them, and I have used them
|> to good purpose. Much like any other risk-bearing activity.

I have not, do not, and will not use drugs, for in the altering of our minds
the animal might find escape.  I wish never to lose control over my mind.
Besides, I might like it, and then where would I be?

[...]
|> The ills of our society are, I think, caused by the failure to comprehend
|> in what ways humans are mere animals, and the failure to integrate the
|> higher and lower aspects of ourselves.

But is this society's fault or that of the individual?  And, though we be mere
animals in some ways, does this eliminate the responsibility for our actions?

|>                                        So I object to the word "promiscuous",
|> because it implies some of the values which I think have caused so much
|> damage to our society (white western, in Particular.) I point my finger
|> squarely at Judeo-Christianity & Islam, and say these beliefs, as they have
|> evolved over time, have done more to damage human beings than all the wars
|> ever seen - besides having contributed to numbers of them. This would be my
|> polemic, which I won't pursue here now.

I would say that the abandonment of morals have done damage to our society.
Religion does not teach everything we need to conduct our lives, but we
should be able to determine for ourselves what will and will not harm
society.  Promiscuity, I would contend, erodes the moral fiber of our
society by weakening the concept of a family.

|> 
|> Yes - we are all equal in being all the same and all different. My janitor
|> might well know more about being a splendid human being than I; or how to
|> raise happy children. We have so many axes along which to make comparisons,
|> but in the end we are all experiential creatures, and social creatures, and
|> have specific needs, and well-known ways of behaving when these needs are not
|> met.

With this last part I would disagree.  Given identical environments, people
will not all behave identically.  Some will overcome the horrors; some will
perpetuate them.  It is for each of us to decide which we shall do.

|>      I might fear and loathe that fellow over there, but I have to take a
|> long, long look before I would judge him down as being lesser or other.
|> I can see myself in almost everyone - failed people, miserable people, hopeful
|> people, people in denial, joyful people, happy people, corrupt people, people
|> with integrity. I am all these things, and so, I think, are all of us.

I see in many others what I could be, but I have the final say in who and
what I am.

[...]
|> Maladapted - I cried recently to think how I could not know what I now know,
|> without having gone through what I did to get here. & I forgave my life for
|> what it is and has been. Maladapted, pfui - it's going to put bread on my
|> table! Maladapted, Ha! We are all maladapted, misfits, crazy wanton children,
|> full of life & love, and the Universe loves us for what we are. And we it in
|> return, for the sacred gift of being and awareness.

Looking back at what I have written, I probably appear, for lack of a 
better word (that I can think of at the moment), almost prudish.  However,
I have not always been so.  There was a time in my life when I did not
even believe that love, true love, really existed.  I was superficial,
never letting anyone see what I really felt, and I was a chameleon,
changing to suit my whims and the people with whom I associated.  I came
close to making mistakes that I would have forever regretted, but when
I found love, I also found who I wanted to be.  Even at a very early age,
however, I was conscious of the ills of society and fought to curb the
darker side of my humanity.  I do believe we all can choose to overcome
our darker sides.  Those who do not mock what humanity should be.

[...]

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Rodney G. Adams
The opinions expressed above are not necessarily those of my employer.
As if you didn't already know that....
"Time is a great teacher, but unfortunately it kills all its pupils."
                                                      - Hector Berlioz
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa