From: robert@landru.mtc.ti.com (Robert Treese)
Subject: Re: Jordan >= Magic && Bird
Keywords: n
Organization: Manufacturing Technology Center, Texas Instruments, Dallas
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 19:11:18 GMT

In article <1992Aug26.152443.5240@brtph560.bnr.ca> markham@brtph600.bnr.ca (Andrew Markham P205) writes:
>> vreddy@das.harvard.edu (Venkatesh Reddy) writes:
>>> markham@brtph600.bnr.ca (Andrew Markham P205) writes:
>>> 
>>> Give me four clips to sum up Michael Jordan...
>>> 
>>> Clip one:  During a game at Utah, Jordan forces a switch to get Stockton on 
>>>     him.  He gets the ball in the post and *BOOM* jams on him.  On his way 
>>>     back up the court, a Utah fan is screaming at Jordan, "Why don't you 
>>>     pick on somebody your own size!!!"  The next time down the court, 
>>>     Jordan dunks on the Utah Jazz center, 7'0" Mel Turpin(?).
>>
>>oooh... powerhouse Mel. How impressive. Perhaps we should ignore all the
>>in-your-face plays Magic did throughout his NBA career.
>
>The idea of this clip is to show that Jordan can dominate over any type
>of player in an offensive matchup.  If you don't like the Mel comparison,
>go back to the Bulls-NY playoff series when Jordan gets double-teamed on
>the baseline by Wilkins and Oakley (with Ewing watching from under the 
>basket).  Jordan looks like he gives up on the baseline and then whips
>by both plays headed toward the hoop with full head of steam.  Ewing comes
>out from under the basket to defend Jordan's attack and Jordan f*ck*ng
>dunks all over him.  Magic and Bird could *never* do this (and that goes 
>for the early 80's).  

Could what, dunk over Ewing?  No they could not, but they could score in 
a very giving the same defensive situation.

>
>>> Clip two:  Jordan goes into the lane looking for a dunk during the Knicks-
>>>     Bulls playoff series this year.  On his way up, Ewing and the X-man
>>>     both come in to ruin his fun.  Xavier practically cross-body blocks him
>>>     and Ewing is hanging on his arm.  Jordan can't finish the dunk but still
>>>     manages to drop the ball in the bucket (YESSSSSSS, and it counts).  The
>>>     play ends with Ewing and McDaniel both falling to the floor with Jordan
>>>     standing over them shouting at them (obviously congratulating them for 
>>>     such an effective defensive play ;^)
>>> 
>>
>>Wow. Mike made a nice play. That's not unheard of. I suppose a nice play by
>>Bird and Magic IS unheard of?
>
>Venk, you sound more ignorant each time you open your mouth.  Do me a favor
>and tell me when I mentioned that a nice play by Bird and Magic was unheard
>of.  I was just pointing out one of *MY* favorites.  You seem to forget that
>just because Bird isn't as good as Mike (and you hate to admit it), doesn't 
>mean that people are putting down Bird when they are praising Jordan.
>
>>> Clip three:  Patrick Ewing gets the ball in the low post (some time during 
>>>     the mid-80's), turns around for one of his patented baseline jumpers, 
>>>     and has Jordan throw his shot into the stands.
>>
>>It's a good thing Magic never blocked any shots. He may have been worthy to
>>pray at the Jordan statue they will surely put to cover up his square foot
>>of wall space at the HOF. And I suppose they should get another one to cover
>>up the meager space Bird will get too.
>
>This clip was to make a statement about Jordan's defense prowess.  Something
>that both Magic and Bird (ESPECIALLY BIRD!!!!!) can't hold a candle to.


Apparently you don't think basketball is a team sport.  Sure Bird was not
a good one on one defensive play but defensive is a lot more then stopping
one person.  If this was true everybody would suck on defense.  Almost
any starter can score on anybody in the NBA.  Bird was an extremly team
oriented player especially with defense.  Check out Bird's carrer steals and
defensive rebounds.  Also it takes a good defender to funnel a player into
Robert and Kevin for the swat.


>
>BTW, Jordan is getting a new floor at the HOF, while Bird and Magic are
>only getting a wing addition.  Didn't you hear ;^)
>
>>> Clip four:  Game One, Championship series vs. the Blazers.  After making
>>>     the fifth of his 5 3-pointers during the first half, while heading
>>>     up the court Jordan looks at Magic, and simply shrugs his shoulders 
>>>     suggesting the quote, "What can I say?"
>>> 
>>
>>The ability to hit 3-ptrs. Good thing Bird didn't have that. Otherwise,
>>Protland would have lost that great game in the regular season... Oh Wait!
>>They DID lose the game. Hmmmmm.....
>
>Once again, for the hard of reading, I wasn't saying that Bird wasn't
>a good 3pt artist, just that 3pts are another facet of Jordan's game.
>
>>> Purely poetic.
>>> 
>>> Obviously everyone has their own opinion about who the greatest player is,
>>> and my vote goes to Jordan.
>>> 
>>> As for quotes, how about these...
>>> 
>>> Bird, "Michael Jordan is God disguised as a basketball player."
>>> 
>>> Magic (in response to Arsenio Hall's question, "Who is the greatest 
>>> basketball player you have ever seen?"):  "Michael, Michael, Michael."
>>> 
>>> IMHO, we won't EVER see another Michael, Larry, or Magic (just like we
>>> haven't seen another Wilt, Kareem, Oscar R., Jerry W., etc...).
>>
>>Oh please. Just because you found 4 great plays by Jordan? There are a million
>>of them out there by Bird and Magic... Oh, but wait... they don't count.
>
>My point wasn't to imply that there aren't a lot of Bird and Magic 'great
>plays', because there certainly are.  But to suggest that *anyone* provides
>more opportunities for photo-opts than Jordan if purely ludicrous.
>
>>True, you are intitled to your opinion, but I don't see anywhere that you 
>>point out WHY Jordan is better than Bird. Personally, I think all 3 are great,
>>and considering that they all play differently and that some are better than
>>others in various areas (Jordan in inside scoring, Bird and Magic in the 
>>passing, Bird in the 3 ptrs., etc....), there's no clear cut one is better 
>>than the other. 
>
>I'll tell you why Jordan I think Jordan is better than Bird...it's because
>Jordan simply has no weakness.  Bird can't play defense, which is SERIOUS
>liability in my opinion.  He is just so DAMNED good on offense, he forces
>himself to be on my top-3 list:
>   1. Jordan
>   2. Magic
>   3. Bird
>
>As for who gets the edge where, my vote goes like this..
>
>Scoring:              Jordan (Bird's a scorer, too)
>Shooting:             Bird (Magic and Jordan are shooters, too)
>Passing:              Magic (Jordan and Bird can pass, too)
>Rebounding:           Bird (Magic and Jordan can rebound, too)
>Playmaking(team):     Magic (Bird is a team playmaker, too)
>Playmaking(individ):  Jordan (Magic is an individ playmaker, too)
>
>(*flame retardant suit on*)
>
>Defense:              Jordan (Magic is fair, Bird flat out sucks)
>Elevating Teammates:  Jordan/Bird/Magic (Bird with 3 Championships on teams
>                      with a pretty high average of talent, Magic with 5 
>                      Championships with the *highest* average of talent, 
>                      and Jordan with 2 Championships ***SO FAR*** with a 
>                      decent average of talent on the team)
>
>(*flame retardant suit off*)
>
>>And 4 little clips that can be countered with 4 clips from 
>>Magic and 4 clips from Bird aren't gonna do it. Fine...your opinion is 
>>Mike... but don't belittle Bird`s or Magic's accomplishments by brushing them 
>>off. They deserve the credit that they earned, and (not directed toward you), 
>>I am sick of hearing people say that Larry would have been a nobody had he 
>>been white, and I am sick of hearing people say Magic and Bird got lucky by 
>>entering the NBa when they did or they would never have been legends. Perhaps 
>>you should go back to the 80's and watch these two play before making these
>>statements... 
>
>I'm not quite sure how I belittled Bird or Magic by saying that I think
>Jordan is better.  I would watch Magic play all day long (as long as Mike
>wasn't in the game)!!!  These three will go down in history as 3 of the 
>greatest of all time.  Picking the winner of the three is useless, because
>someone will always disagree.
>
>Jordan still rules, though.
>
>BTW, I don't know if you're trying to convince me that someone is better
>than Jordan or not, but I just wanted you to know that it is impossible.
>
>On an unrelated note, I'm also tired of hearing the Larry's good because he's 
>white comments, but I've taken a different approach.  
>
>The people that think Larry is good only because he's white are probably the 
>same people that think blacks are faster and can jump higher because they
>are black.  If this is true, does that mean that they are suggesting that if 
>you give Larry Bird quicker legs and a higher vertical leap (by making him
>a black person -- obvious right?), he wouldn't be that good by NBA standards?
>
>Yeah, right.
>

I refuse to name a better player amoung the three but your arguements about
Bird really don't hold water.  He could not make the amazing athletic play
but that does not mean his game suffered.   The one respect in which Bird
and Magic exceed Jordon is in their effect on the game of Basketball in general.When they came into the the league the play was extremely one on one oriented.
They brought the pass back into fashion.  Magic and Bird's play is more 
imitated then any players in history.  Mainly because physically people 
are more likely to make the plays that Magic and Bird did but can only dream
about making the plays Jordon makes.  (But this does not mean Jordon is 
a better ball player, just a different type of ball player).  If you watch
current players you can see Magic and Bird on the court even now that
they are retired.

>-- 

Robert
robert@landru.mtc.ti.com
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.pro