HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: alt.pagan

> >
> >If you were to die today, would you go to heaven?

          I don't have even the vaguest notion where I would go. I don't 
think I have a lot of interest in going to some city that is 1500 miles
cubed. It's crowded enough in Colorado Springs. 

          Actually, my guess is that my consciousness will simply 
merge into an even larger consciousness. 

> >
> >If you were to die today and God asked you, "Why should I let you into my
> >heaven?" What would you say?
> 
           I have always paid my rent on time and I should be able to 
live anywhere I choose. If "God" would ask a question like that, he 
should take a course in basic interviewing techniques. ;-) I don't 
think he could get a job in a personnel department anywhere. 

>
> >What is my "agenda" for asking these questions?  Just curious.

           That I do not believe for a minute. Here in Colorado Springs
we have an entire plethora of religious fundie groups. They are all 
trying this "non-pushy" approach. Perhaps it is some training they have
gotten. They bang on doors with a smile and try to sell their religion
like a dollar-bag of candy. The objective is obvious. "My god is better
than your god (and my daddy can beat up your daddy)"

           Now, I would be inclined to ask these people (if I ever
had time for them) WHY any person in his/her right mind would want to 
adopt some life philosophy which states "you are worthless worm of the
earth and all of your impulses are evil. You can not survive in the 
universe without a cosmic police officer." Of course, they wouldn't 
answer me. They would just say "well, god loves you." Yeah, right. 

           I prefer a god who considers me to be an equal -- one who 
is capable and competent to make decisions with the wisdom I am 
able to gain through my life experience. 

           Ever notice how the xians always attribute the positive to 
God and the negative to the devil? It is as though they seem themselves
as mindless puppets, manipulated by forces beyond their control. That
isn't living! 

           I really resent the idea that someone would post a 'survey' 
in a notesgroup which obviously explores other views. I don't pee in 
your livingroom. Don't pee in mine! 

           tantrum entirely complete! 

-rks

                               The seeking of wisdom is the highest virtue-

                                                --Odin--


Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: radzy@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU (T. O. Radzykewycz)
Subject: Re: Scott Mayo no longer on Net
Organization: International Computer Science Institute, Berkeley, CA, U.S.A.
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 21:58:38 GMT

billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson) writes:
> Hm. Was [Scott Mayo] that much of a basher or did he just sincerely believe
> that people who hold pagan beliefs are wrong.

amanda@INTERCON.COM (Amanda Walker) writes:
> ... I eventually came to the latter view.  I may think he's a little 
> misguided (about Christianity as much as paganism :)), but he seems generally 
> sincere, and though he makes no bones about his position, he doesn't try to 
> flame dissenters into a toasty crisp.  As Usenet posters go, this only gets 
> up to "occasionally annoying" on my scale, which is doing pretty well...

I also think he sincerely believes that pagans are wrong, but he wasn't
obnoxious about it.  Unlike Amanda, I feel that he was usually, rather
than occasionally, annoying.  But it was certainly not anything worse
than annoying.  He wasn't a basher at all, IMnshO.

Blessings!

		-- radzy

------------------------------------------------------------
					|  An it harm none,
	T. O. Radzykewycz	     	|  do as ye will.
	The Incredible Radical Cabbage	|
					|  "Just pray for a
	radzy@cogsci.berkeley.edu       |  tough hide and a
	        			|  tender heart."
	        			|    -- Ruth Graham
------------------------------------------------------------
> Hi! I am a .signature virus. Copy me into your .signature to join in!
From: cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Templars not Masons <flame risk HIGH>
Date: 31 Aug 92 23:29:27 GMT
Organization: University of California, Irvine

In article <1992Aug31.163921.19309@lmt.mn.org> ciaran@county.lmt.mn.org (Ciaran Benson) writes:
>  As a service of our National Parks System, this post is
>ranked HIGH on the potential flame scale.
>
>  Burn at your own risk.

[Ciaran's post about Templars deleted]

Hon, I thought I knew a smidgen about the Knights Templar, but I had no
idea that they had done anything worthy of pissing someone off to this
extent.  It was my understanding that they were just a bit different and
suffered under the Church when their power began waning.  What the hell
did they do that was so awful?  This is a serious question.  I thought I
knew more than most about the Knights Templar and never ran into
anything distasteful that was attributed to them by any other than their
enemies, and it was the usual "devilry" of which anyone stomped on by
the Church stood accused.

Blessings,
Janis the Most Curious
From: wolfe@wolves.uucp (G. Wolfe Woodbury)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Hitler and Christianity
Date: 26 Aug 92 04:47:38 GMT
Organization: Red Wolfe @ The Wolves Den
X-Md4-Signature: 65aea004bfdec2c45d294fec83a55f8f

In article <1992Aug24.220857.14243@unislc.uucp> erc@unislc.uucp (Ed Carp) sez:
>Albert Lunde (Albert-Lunde@nwu.edu) wrote:
>
>: There *are* Christians who have more in common with neo-pagans than
>: with the fundamentalists. Admitting this is one step short of leaving
>: the Christian church entirely.
>
>Oh, I somehow doubt that.

Ed, which part are you having trouble with?  That there *are* "Christians" 
that may actually share more with the neo-pagan spiritualities?  Or that for
them to admit to being more mystically inclined places them in jeopardy of
being pushed out of the "Christian" community (as re-defined by the 
conservakooks)?

On my own path to "Paganism" (the religious philosopy :-)  I began with the
Episcopal Church and its non-emphasis on the dogmatic interpretation of
the doctrine it supposedly followed (at least as long as you paid your
pledges. :-)   Quite a number of very good and interesting folks I met
along the way are personally quite comfortable with the spirituality of
the neo-pagan movement and the goals of tolerance and love for persons
individually.  A number of these folks have followed their own paths and
have come to the Unitarian-Universalist fold, and some have simply continued
to remain in the Episcopal congregations, and some have come out as explicit
"pagans".

The Episcopal priest who caused my own break with the Church was alway
supportive of my mystical bent, and is quite aware of my Unitarian leanings
and "pagan" position now.  He was, unfortunately, caught in a very difficult
situation at the time he disappointed me, and I've managed to understand
where he was and why he did it.  One of these days, he's bound to ask me if
I can "forgive" him for what he did -- the question I have is whether I'll
be able to keep a straight face when I tell him "no."  (I'll probably break
out and roll on the floor laughing when he gets the "hurt puppy" look
that is one of his most endearing mannerisms. :-)

Oh, a point to this posting?    There *are* Christians who can deal openly
and honestly with a pagan spirituality and accept it with a good conscience.
As to their precarious position within the "Church", I'll not really comment.


				Wolfe
-- 
G. Wolfe Woodbury @ The Wolves Den UNIX, Durham NC         [use the maps!]
UUCP: ...dukcds!wolves!wolfe   ...duke!wolves!wolfe    <Standard disclaimers>
Domain: wolfe%wolves@cs.duke.edu    wolfe@cds.duke.edu
    Above all, we celebrate.   Celebrate the Circle Statement of Purpose
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: pharvey@quack.sac.ca.us (Paul Harvey)
Subject: Re: Bailing Out (rant) (was: Re: Freedom of Religion as well as ever
Keywords: Civil Rights, Pagan
Organization: The Duck Pond public unix: +1 408 249 9630, log in as 'guest'.
	<Di60PB2w165w@brewich.hou.tx.us> <1992Aug31.232820.1107@csus.edu>
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 05:52:38 GMT

In article <1992Aug31.232820.1107@csus.edu> 
altheimm@nextnet.csus.edu (Murray Altheim) writes:
><REQUEST TO THE GODS AND GODDESSES: >

Ah, I am not the ONE, sorry.
[Sounds like a secret Christian handshake, but it's not]

>I wish someone could cheer me up sometimes about this. The only way I can
>be happy about the future is when I ignore the knowledge I have about the 
>past and present, and that isn't acceptable to me. Yes, ignorance is bliss,
>and I'm not too blissful these days.

Ever since the invention of the neolithic, it has always been the
numbers or greater masses of people against the power or monied
interests. It's push and shove, sometimes we are up and sometimes we are
down. A large difference in the distribution of wealth always brings
depression or revolution which destroys and brings everyone down to a
common economic base and we start the cycles all over again. It's the
cycle of the neolithic, seems a bit strange, and that it be. Empires
rise and empires fall, just like Rome, all in turn. Ashes to ashes, all
fall down. Ya plays ya role to the best of your ability, it's not always
so easy to see right, but you do as right as you can. That's dharma and
that's all.

We don't need no water let it burn-yo! burn-yo!
we don't need no water let it burn!
so it burned
learn your lesson well, if I don't then I guess you get jelled
swell, heads go down like the sun, and here it comes
fiddle-fee, fiddle-fie, fiddle-foe, fiddle-fum
I smell the blood of an English
muffin, huffin' and puffin', sellin' his soul
j-e-l-l-o, ya know?
hit it off, kick it off, set it off
here it -comes!

>Now that I've totally brought myself down...  :G
>Blessings and hopes for a brighter future,
>The Somewhat More Melancholy Murray

Go down far enough and you can come up the other side, G! For real dough!
There's been better and there's been worse, it's just dharma.
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: eshin@ddsw1.mcs.com (Eshin-Fun)
Subject: Re: Scott Mayo no longer on Net
Organization: ddsw1.MCS.COM Contributor, Chicago IL
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL3
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 11:19:03 GMT
X-Disclaimer:  Material posted in this article is the sole responsibility of
                the poster and does not represent MCSNet or the system owners.



>>mkkuhner@phylo.genetics.washington.edu (Mary K. Kuhner) writes:
: Scott Mayo asks me to let the Net know that he has lost Internet access<<

The Gods work in strange ways. But then again, the Gods work!

Eshin-Fun

: 
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: guay@fraser.sfu.ca (Tim Guay)
Subject: Re: Hitler and Christianity
Organization: Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 17:52:09 GMT

In article <1992Aug24.220857.14243@unislc.uucp> erc@unislc.uucp (Ed Carp) writes:
>Albert Lunde (Albert-Lunde@nwu.edu) wrote:
>
>: There *are* Christians who have more in common with neo-pagans than
>: with the fundamentalists. Admitting this is one step short of leaving
>: the Christian church entirely.
>
>Oh, I somehow doubt that.

I am Christian of the liberal flavor and I must admit that I feel more 
comfortable with neopagans that fundies. IMHO fundies haven't a clue about
neopaganism is really about, or what the teachings of Jesus is really about. 
Furthermore fundies have more in common with the Pharasees than with Christ.
I am into Christian mysticism ala Thomas Merton (later stuff) and I don't
go to any church regularly though I do frequent a very liberal Anglican church.

Peace be with you
	Tim


Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: pharvey@quack.sac.ca.us (Paul Harvey)
Subject: Re: Freedom of Religion as well as everything else
Organization: The Duck Pond public unix: +1 408 249 9630, log in as 'guest'.
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 03:21:03 GMT

In article <1992Aug27.125424.6521@latcs1.lat.oz.au> 
burns@latcs1.lat.oz.au (Jonathan Burns) writes:
>From the neo-Celtic point of view, feminism is not a social strategy,
>a refinement of Christian compassion for the weak, a refinement of
>humanist enlightenment, or anything so modern. It's the grey pre-dawn
>of the return of something that we had lost and forgotten. Something
>Grail-like in nature. The return of the Goddesses into the human social
>image.
>You can't HAVE that, AND play behavioural games on disenfranchised
>supporting mothers. Those are incompatible narratives. You get to
>participate in the Return-of-the-Goddess drama only if you adjust
>your vision so that the woman's Right stands out as a basic referent.

Sure, that's pretty basic even if a fair number of people don't get it.
It's a question of balance. And probably some basic understanding or
maybe even thinking out loud for a change. But, it's too easy to just
watch wheel of fortune, tune in and tune out. Let the leaders do the work, 
they'll take care of us. They have our interests in mind. As long as we pledge
allegiance to the flag every morning, everything will be OK. Oh, I guess
I should make it clear that I'm be sarcastic. It's a sad commentary that
what I just said could be taken seriously, even incorporated into a
mainstream party political speach or platform.

>Everybody do that. Do it, if only for a night. _Then_ look at the

Well, I don't know that it applies to the ghetto. The line that the
problems of the ghetto and poverty are caused by single family parents
is a gigantic load of boosh*t. I see no reason that a single mother or
father can't raise great kids given a few other basic essentials. Sure,
a mother and father probably wouldn't hurt, just as a grandma and
grandpa probably wouldn't hurt, you can even throw in some aunts and
uncles. But, I really see no coorelation between single parent families
and the problems of the ghettos or even rioting, which is about the only
problem much of the mainstream sees in ghettos. The problem is economic
opportunity and some skin color racism. In the past in the US, times
where good, on average for many. So jobs where available almost
everywhere, no education was neccesary, just the will to work hard.
These times are gone, manual labor is gone, the only way to get a job
now is by having an education, a degree. Now you've got a real
seperation of the people, those with education and those without. And if
your parents don't have an education and don't have some money, it's not
very likely you will get access to an education either. So now we've got
unequal access based on money first and skin color second. Either that
gets addressed peacefully, or it gets addressed by revolution. It will
get addressed irregardless of whatever family values nonsense occurs.
Education is the key now, and every year it only becomes more important.
Access to an education must be equal.
From: lib1p@rosie.uh.edu (Tammy Stark Blandino)
Subject: Re: Canada (was: Re: Freedom of Religion as well as everything else)
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: University of Houston
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 22:29:00 GMT

In article <1992Aug31.220149.8878@samba.oit.unc.edu>, shava@hermes.oit.unc.edu (Shava Nerad Averett) writes...
>Gee, I have a brother in Bellingham, WA...  I really like Vancouver.  Anyone
>wanna look into a pagan diaspora to BC if the elections go badly in November?
> 
>/* almost serious, but wish I weren't */
>-- 
>Shava Nerad Averett				shava_averett@unc.edu
Is Canada any better?

Tammy
From: mimir@milton.u.washington.edu (Al Billings)
Subject: Re: Canada (was: Re: Freedom of Religion as well as everything else)
Organization: The Friends of Loki Society
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 07:29:53 GMT

In article <1992Sep4.041057.13459@sfu.ca> guay@fraser.sfu.ca (Tim Guay) writes:
>
>3. You don't have to mortgage your house if you break a leg. Contrary to
>   anti-medicare propaganda by your right wing, our system works. A few
>   years back I had to have major reconstructive surgury on my jaw. This
>   required a six-hour operation and 9 days in hospital. The total cost to
>   me was CDN $36 (about US $32) adminstration fee for my hospital bed. Yes
>   you read right! MSP payments are not that bad and if you're poor they are
>   subsidised. When I was a student I paid the token amount of a $1 a year.
>   (milage may vary by provence). BTW My provence's (B.C.) MSP charges family
>   rates to gay/lesbian couples. 

 But you can die waiting for medical care due to the Socialized nature of
it. There was an article in the Seattle Times about it this week. A
patient that NEEDED to have heart surgery immediatly was seeing a doctor
through a friend here in the States. The doctor called the patient's
doctor in Canada and was informed that they might be able to get to him in
a few weeks (or it might have been months, I can't remember). The American
doctor askes the Canadian doctor if people ever died because of the waits,
and the Canadian doctor told him "All the time."

Wassail,
Grendel

                           mimir@u.washington.edu
    /\  /\       +----------------------------------------+
   /__\/__\      | "I know that I hung on the windy tree  |          |
  /\  /\  /\     |  all of nights nine, wounded by Gar,   |          |
 /__\/__\/__\    |   given to Odhinn, myself to myself,   |          |
    /\  /\       | upon that tree of which none can tell  |          |
   /__\/__\      |      from what root it rises."         |    ______|______
                 +----------------------------------------+
From: klotz@lclark.edu (Gretchen Klotz)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Pagan music
Date: 1 Sep 92 18:57:03 GMT
Organization: Lewis & Clark College, Portland OR

Well, radzy and Carl's raves have convinced me to go to Heather's concert
here in Portland on Saturday.  I'm always willing to check out a new live
performer.  Besides, I can *walk* from where I live!  Any other PDX pagans
plan on attending?  (Want to go Sally?  I could turn you on to the *best*
dessert place in Portland - Rimsky Korsakoffeehouse - within walking
distance of the concert - chocolate desserts to *die* for!) If others are
interested, how shall we identify each other? 

E-mail me if you're going.

And thanks to radzy and Carl for the info.  :-)

BB,

- Gretchen

P.S.  Paul's description of the drive from SF is accurate.  I lean more
towards *his* way of doing it, but I haven't had the time privilege yet...
-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Gretchen Klotz		      Computing Services
              klotz@lclark.edu			Lewis & Clark College
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: txdv1@isuvax.iastate.edu (Angela KAY Rolling)
Subject: republican delema
Reply-To: txdv1@isuvax.iastate.edu
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, Iowa
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 19:23:30 GMT

I think that the best solution to the problems with the dominit partys and
groups like that belonging to Pat Robensen is to form a Pagen party. fight
fire with fire. There are bound to be enufe pagens out there to make this
work. With a unified party even the smalist wimper can be hurd from a large
enife group. There are probly enufe pagens out there that the funding could
easaly be suplyed to such a canadite to put there face and vews out in public
and make them well known. We could gain the first pagen presadent.

ELF-KIN
From: krikket@meltdown.chi.il.us (D. 'krikket' Krick)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Bailing Out (rant) (was: Re: Freedom of Religion as well as everything else)
Date: 1 Sep 92 23:24:43 GMT
Organization: The Meltdown - A Team Star BBS

In article <1992Aug31.221341.9440@samba.oit.unc.edu>, shava@hermes.oit.unc.edu
(Shava Nerad Averett) writes:
>Ever hear of Jesse Helms?  We've been dealing with this in NC on a consistant
>basis since there've been white people here, I think.  And I hear it's worse
>in most of the rest of the south...

Whoops.  I forgot about that asshole.  Okay, point taken.

>>This year I'm voting Libertarian.
>
>Until the libertarian party can field *local* candidates that have a snow-
>ball's chance in hell, and work their way up to the national level, you
>are effectively voting for the incumbant, by the statistics.

Yes, but I'm still just as scared by the thought of Al Gore in the VP spot as I
am with Bush/Quayle in for another 4 years.  Just think of the damage Tipper
Gore could do.  She hasn'e even bothered to hide her hypocracies.  And Al Gore
has backed her 100% while in public office...

>I come from a state (Vermont) which regularly runs 4-6 party slates for 
>offices right on up to national office (VT has the only Independant
>congressman -- he started out Socialist, and was mayor of the largest
>city in Vermont, re-elected 3 times, as I remember, before he ran for
>the DC House -- Goddess bless Bernie Sanders!).  I support multiple party
>systems.  But I would not waste my vote on a third party candidate any-
>where (including the US federal elections) that third parties have no
>infrastructural support (like having won on the next-down level of federal
>bureaucracy...)

I've actually managed to help get some Libertarians in office on the local
level...

Krikket               ! krikket@meltdown.chi.il.us ! USnail:3 Danada Square E.
a.k.a Doug Krick      ! Team Star Charter Member   !        Suite 246
Data ph# 708/665-9732 ! #include<std.disclaimers>  !        Wheaton, Il 60187
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Just another commentary on the sad state of affairs on our nation today.
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe)
Subject: Re: Masons/Knights Templar
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 03:11:33 GMT

gerda@brewich.hou.tx.us (Gerda Thunarsson) writes:

>I have also read that the Masons are descendents of the Knights Templar.  
>They are Luciferians (note that is NOT the Christian SATAN).  They are a 
>very pagan organization, or at least were.  I know my Father and my very 
>christian Uncle are both members of the Masons.  My uncle was 32nd Level 
>Mason, yet, doesn't realize that the Masons are NOT christian.   My 
>father doesn't know that it's a pagan organization (or was).  I wonder of 
>(of=if) all masons are as blind as this, or are there some "real" masons 
>out there?
> 
Um, there is a logic problem here.  If everyone who is up to 32nd doesn't know
about this Luciferian concept, then only the 33rds know about it.  That means
that the Mason's aren't really Luciferian, since only a couple people in the
world would know about this.  Actually, from what I've heard, the only 
Luciferianism in Masonry was one interesting person who interpreted Masonry
to fit his own ideas.  Since all Masons are encouraged to fit Masonic symbolism
with their own religious ideas, this means that most Masons will see
the symbols through their own Christian religion.  There may be other Masons
since the one author who've adopted a Luciferian posture, but that is not
inherent to Masonry.  Masonry is neither pagan nor Christian, and is capable of
being interpreted to fit with either.

Disclaimer, I am not a Mason (yet).

              Merry meet, merry part, merry meet again,
                               Br'anArthur

Queer, Peculiar, and Wyrd! :-)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan