From: srcd@faraday.physics.utoronto.ca (Solomon Douglas)
Subject: Re: Hip Chord Voicings
Organization: Dept. of Physics, Univ. of Toronto
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1992 02:50:53 GMT

In article <1992Apr8.122647.7809@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu> wsadler@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (william sadler) writes:
>In <1992Apr4.014453.1722@helios.physics.utoronto.ca> srcd@faraday.physics.utoronto.ca (Solomon Douglas) writes:

>>	 G7(alt)      G7(b5b9#9)

>>... to me they mean the same thing but the first one is fewer tokens to
>>scan... :)

>The logic behind this is that the person spelling out the chord has
>complete control (usually over the piano player :-))  Instead
>of the pianist playing a #9 and a #13 and the saxophone player
>playing a b9 and a b13 before they both realize they are not
>altering the same notes they both know which scales to use.  Of
>course, ideally the piano player should listen and then play, but
>it doesn't always happen that way...

But I don't see a problem with the pianist hitting the #9 and b7 (that's
what a #13 is, which you'd never see in a chart, or did you mean b5 or
something?) at the same time as the sax player hits the b9 and b13 --
they're all in the same scale, all in the same chord, so they go together
fine.  That's the point of replacing "G7(b13#11#9)" and "G7(b9#5)" and
"G7(#9b5)" etc. etc. etc. all with "G7(alt)" -- they all go with the same
scale, so you can use any voicing from that scale that you want and any
melody notes from that scale that you want and it'll sound fine.  (I think
of "alt" as meaning neither the 5th nor the 9th has been left unaltered.)

On the other hand, if the pianist hears the saxophonist playing the natural
five and the flat nine, s/he should use a diminished voicing rather than an
altered voicing, because those *are* different scales.

Do you see what I mean?

>>  I agree with your entire system with these exceptions: for
>>half-diminished chords I think a circle with a slash through it is easier
>>to read than "mi7(b5)" (though in ASCII I would use the latter), and the
>>"alt" I already mentioned.  I also prefer "maj" to "MA" but only
>>slightly... :)
>I like the circle with the slash too.  It was pointed out to me that
>it is not as clear as mi7(b5) because it can be confused with just the
>circle fairly easily.  The abbreviation dim. works well for diminished,
>but a lot of people still use the circle.

I use the circle for diminished and the slashed circle for half-diminished
without a problem but I don't know if the musicians reading my arrangements
have a problem with it though.

>Does anyone know where the triangle for major and the circle and circle
>w / come from originally?  I have often wondered.
>
>The other thing about using mi7(b5) is that it more accurately explains
>the function of the chord than "half-diminished."  It is not really a
>diminshed chord with a minor seventh-- it's a minor chord with a
>flat five.

I disagree...  To me, "half-diminished" is a completely separate idea, I
don't think of it as meaning "diminished with minor seventh" or as "minor
seventh with flat five".  Because to me it *isn't* a minor chord with a
flat five, it's a completely different chord.  Well, I guess you could call
it an Aeolian minor with a flat five... but to me it doesn't sound like a
minor chord (as, for instance, a seventh chord with a flat 5 *does* sound
like a seventh chord.)  It's its own separate chord quality.

Hmmm...  I sense that this discussion of "hip chord voicings" is
degenerating into a religious battle about terminology...  Sorry about
that, I'll shut up now. :)

>The end result is the same, but often how you think
>about a chord determines how you approach it improvisationally.

That part I *do* agree with.

Sol
-- 
 Solomon <|>   srcd@faraday.physics.utoronto.ca
 Douglas /|\   srcd@sq.sq.com