HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: sos@oz.plymouth.edu (Steffan O'Sullivan)
Subject: META: Game Mechanics vs. Background
Reply-To: sos@oz.plymouth.edu (Steffan O'Sullivan)
Organization: Plymouth State College - Plymouth, N.H.
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 92 23:20:19 GMT

Hmmm - I've had some interesting conversations with folks lately about
what sells in an RPG, and why.  What do you look for when you buy RPG
material?  Good game mechanics or good world background?

Apparently, judging from e-mail I've gotten lately, I'm in the
minority:  I think game mechanics are of prime importance in a game I
buy, and background secondary.  Before you flame too hard. let me
clarify my stance: I think background is of *vital* importance when I
*play* a game.  I just don't look for it in game books.  I'm quite
comfortable translating either my own ideas or a favorite fictional
world to whatever game mechanics I use.

When I buy a game, I'm looking for clean, smooth-playing, simple,
comprehensive game mechanics that aren't obtrusive into the game
setting.  This is very important to me, so whatever setting I'm using
works.

I don't need or even like to be spoon-fed a gaming world with every
little detail filled in.  The exception might be a setting from an
existing fictional source that works - already worked before somebody
made a game out of it, in fact.  But in general, I am more offended by
some game designer's opinion on a genre than helped by it.  Just as an
example, I can figure out a decent vampire society without being forced
to use clans . . .

I guess it comes down to this:  I feel I should pay a game designer for
game design, and a fiction author for setting, mood, genre, background,
etc.

How do others feel about this?  Just how minor is the minority I belong
to?

-- 
  - Steffan O'Sullivan		         sos@oz.plymouth.edu
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc,rec.games.board
From: mhall@netcom.com (Michael Hall)
Subject: Re: Dumb Moves By Game Companies
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 00:17:43 GMT

acadams@afterlife.ncsc.mil (Arthur C. Adams) writes:

>I was setting around thinking today:
>what are some of the dumbest moves made by game companies?

>Here's a few I came up with:

>Avalon Hill's decision to not make RuneQuest products purely 
>Glorantha. RuneQuest players want Glorantha!

>SPI's decision to trust TSR. For those who don't remember, before SPI
>went under, they received a loan from T$R. T$R told them that they would give
>them leeway on the payments. As soon as SPI missed a payment, TSR called
>in the loan and took over the company. Bye-bye to one of the greats.
>(Incidentally, this is what I understood to have happened. If anyone
>has more, or more accurate, details, please tell me.)

>Non-RPG companies getting into RPG's. It bloodied SPI. Avalon Hill
>never did well with anything except RuneQuest.

>TSR trying to sell anything non-*D&D. None of the products have
>ever done well, with the exception of Marvel Super-Heroes, and that
>was because of the license, not the game.

>Any other suggestions?

Avalon Hill's decision to replace the wooden pieces in Diplomacy with plastic.
Avalon Hill's decision to replace the plastic pieces in Diplomacy with wooden.
Just kidding on the second one :-)

Avalon Hill's failure to mail me MBT as partial payment for the
Up Front article I wrote for the General.

Avalon Hill's attempts to sell normal adult games.

Avalon Hill's failure to get Civilization "right" (mostly in terms of
realism and balance) the first time was not so bad, because it was still
fun, but then they didn't get it "right" the second time either and even
made some problems worse, which was inexcusable.

GDW's failure to get Imperium victory/appeals stuff "right" the first time
was not so bad, because it could be patched up, but then they didn't get it
"right" the second time either with a patch that didn't work, which was
inexcusable.

Metagaming's refusal to sell The Fantasy Trip to Steve Jackson for a
reasonable price and letting this role-playing system die.  Steve Jackson's
refusal to buy The Fantasy Trip for a few million bucks to save it from
certain death.

Steve Jackson's deciding to skimp on artwork in Hacker and failing to
include some sort of worm or virus card.

Some Turkey Games' failure to produce more than one game title.

-- 
Michael Hall   \ 
personal account\Big Brother knows if you picked up those tickets off the floor
mhall@netcom.com \
From: Don.Noll@p3425.f70.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Don Noll)
Sender: Uucp@blkcat.UUCP
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Tekumel, Empire of the Petal Throne
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 15:57:46 -0500

On 12/21/92, pgyger said something very interesting to All on the subject of
Tekumel, Empire of the Petal Throne. 

  pr> From: pgyger@ulys.unil.ch Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Organization:
  pr> University of Lausanne - CH (Switzerland)
  pr> 
  pr> As anyone heard about the 'Tekumel, Empire of the Petal Throne' series
  pr> from M.A. Barker? It was released first in the late 70's and is
  pr> published again now by Theater if the Mind. Some new stuff is upcoming
  pr> too, like books published by DAW. I am thinking about buying that so
  pr> I'd like to know if anyone here has read, seen, etc. that game (it was
  pr> a D&D campaign first but is a whole game now) and can tell me if the
  pr> world, the game system, etc. are good and worth buying. Thanks in
  pr> advance and... merry Xmas!
  pr> 
  pr> Patrick J. Gyger (pgyger@ulys.unil.ch) "Smile like a reptile!"
 
I read two or three Tekumal books by Barker, good culturally "different" kind of
place.  I have a slim black spellbook he came out with as a sort of D&D
supplement.  Some of the spells in it were pretty cool............
From: robdean@access.digex.com (Rob Dean)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Tekumel, Empire of the Petal Throne
Date: 22 Dec 1992 21:44:19 GMT
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.com

In article <loren.227@wmkt.wharton.upenn.edu> loren@wmkt.wharton.upenn.edu (Loren Miller) writes:
>IMHO, the Tekumel stuff is one of the top two or three game worlds 
>available, and I'd highly recommend you buy whatever you can find. 
>Tekumel is as original and interesting as Glorantha or Jorune or 
>Talislanta, and more alien than Harn, the Young Kingdoms, or Mythic Europe. 

You'll get no disagreement from me on that count!  I bought my copy of
EPT in 1976, and I have it still, as well as about 80% of the stuff that
various companies have produced for it since, not to mention my 150 or
so Tekumel miniatures for (small) mass warfare.

>The only problem with EPT is that the rules suck.

Again, I don't disagree with you, but it would be fair to mention that
the version of the rules currently available is a virtually unchanged
reprint of the original 1975 rules based on "three little brown books"
D&D (maybe post Greyhawk, maybe not....)  That makes them the oldest
set of unchanged rules that I know of that can still be easily purchased--
which means two things:

There is a small group of fantatics keeping the game alive, and

They are too small for anyone to want to venture much effort on revising 
the rules.

I'm hoping that TOME will be able to complete their projected EPT
series, which may drum up enough interest that I'll be able to find 
a game. (-:  If they don't, though, they've thoughtfully decided to arrange
everything in the form of solo adventures, since EPT fans tend to be
isolated from other EPT fans. (-: )-:

>Actually, since Stefan lost network access his tekumel mailing list is 
>defunct, and I think we ought to start discussing it here, in public. If 
>anybody else has anything to add, do so.


As with any game with a mailing list, there's no reason why we oughtn't
to discuss it here occasionally.  As someone mentioned, BTW, the list is
back up, and I got my copy of the latest digest today. (22 December)

Rob Dean
(RPG graybeard)


Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
From: dunkelza@titan.ucc.umass.edu (KEITH C MCCORMIC)
Subject: Re: How long does it take (was: META)
Organization: University of Massachusetts, Amherst
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 21:40:12 GMT


   Is standardly get a campaign idea and do some work on it about once a
month.  Maybe this this is just a game designer syndrome.  Only about one-
tenth of my ideas ever get used for anything more than half ofd a single 
adventurand only two so far be published by Feline 
Electrolysis (So far that is).  These being K-Realm and Inheritance.  Note:
Both name are ours, so you can'tr have them...Nyaah :)  

    K-Realm started about five years ago as a board game, and then later
developed into a role-playing game about three years ago.  

    Inheritance started as a crazy idea for a post-holocaust setting, and then
became a fantasy oner which I am currently developing a game.

    Oh, on another note, I prefer a game with lots of background, but not so 
much as to be constrictive.   Krynn as a game setting sucked because it was
just so fleshed out as to be useless to a designer type who was familiar with 
it.  However, I think that is is good  for a game to have a HUGE amount of
material (Like Shadowrun), available to persons who don't want to spend many
hours developing each and every detail of a city.   

Dunkelzahn

(Still designing a new .sig)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
From: osterbar@ucunix.san.uc.edu (Andrew Robert Osterburg)
Subject: Amber Diceless Roleplaying  FTP sites??????? 
Organization: University of Cincinnati
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 01:41:31 GMT

	Could someone please send me the address for any Amber ftp sites
Thanks.

Xref: sparky rec.games.frp.misc:10404 rec.games.frp.dnd:7814
From: Barnard@forge.franken.de (Henning Schmiedehausen)
Reply-To: hgschmie@immd4.informatik.uni-erlangen.de
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc,rec.games.frp.dnd
Subject: AD&D gamers wanted in Boulder / Co.
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 12:29:21 GMT
Organization: Barnard's Software Forge (ECG038)
X-Newsreader: Arn V1.00

Howdy!

I  will  be  visiting  a friend in Boulder / Co.  from Jan, 12th 1993 to Jan,
23th 1993 and I'd like to play AD&D in a 'native' group while I'm over there.
(From my current point of view, it's 'over there' ;)

I  have  experience  in  playing  AD&D (in german, of course) for about three
years, mostly playing a thief or a fighter. 

So  if  you'd  like  show  a foreign role player what it is really all about,
please reply via EMail to 'hgschmie@immd4.informatik.uni-erlangen.de'.

	Alloooooooha!
		Henning


-- 
  \\ _ Henning Schmiedehausen - barnard@forge.franken.de _ // Amiga - 
   \X/ --- Home of Barnard's Software Forge - ECG038 --- \X/  Learning to Fly

I'm  stepping  out,  I'm  movin' on, I'm gonna see the world.  Like a rolling
stone.  Stepping out. - E.L.O., Out of the blue.
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
From: mavra@cpac.washington.edu (Peter D. Adkison)
Subject: Re: Palladium/WotC Lawsuit--How You Can Help
Organization: Wizards of the Coast, Inc.
	<1992Dec21.172508.1293@unislc.uucp>
	<GOLDM.92Dec21145438@sage4a.rpi.edu>
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 03:07:13 GMT

In article <GOLDM.92Dec21145438@sage4a.rpi.edu> goldm@rpi.edu (Mitchell E. Gold) writes:

>   In article <1992Dec21.172508.1293@unislc.uucp> stv@unislc.uucp (Steve Spencer) writes:

>   :If possible, could someone please post the mailing address to Paladium?

>   Unless they've moved, the address in the Palladium Role Playing Game is:
>      Palladium Books
>      5926 Lonyo Ave
>      Detroit, MI 48210

I hope that's the right address--it's what we printed on page 223 of TPO.  :-)

				--Mavra!
				  Peter D. Adkison
				  Janitor, Wizards of the Coast
				  mavra@wizards.com

The above internet address should be used for e-mail if it is
different from the e-mail address in the header.
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: RE: META: Game Mechanics vs. Background
From: mdlcpgs@lhn.gns.cri.nz
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 92 01:43:35 GMT  
Organization: Institute of Gelogical & Nuclear Sciences, New Zealand.

>Hmmm - I've had some interesting conversations with folks lately about
>what sells in an RPG, and why.  What do you look for when you buy RPG
>material?  Good game mechanics or good world background?
>
>Apparently, judging from e-mail I've gotten lately, I'm in the
>minority:  I think game mechanics are of prime importance in a game I
>buy, and background secondary.  Before you flame too hard. let me
>clarify my stance: I think background is of *vital* importance when I
>*play* a game.  I just don't look for it in game books.  I'm quite
>comfortable translating either my own ideas or a favorite fictional
>world to whatever game mechanics I use.

Add me to your minority. I like FRP because I like building game worlds.
I might hedge ideas from all over the place but begin looking at gaming
systems with the idea of either borrowing from the background or borrowing
from the mechanics with the mechanics really being the only reason I would
buy something. I am also interested in game worlds metaphysics - the "reason"
magic or religion etc works. This is often transportable to different 
backgrounds and can also result if quite different mechanics for the same
metaphysical concept.
	Phil
From: hummell+@pitt.edu (Andrew G Hummell)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Rifts Weapon's rate of fire
Date: 31 Dec 92 14:01:26 GMT
Article-I.D.: blue.1255
Organization: University of Pittsburgh

In article <christ.725649609@crash.cts.com> christ@crash.cts.com (Chris Trichel) writes:
[stuff deleted]
>ONE round x 7..." this changes things a bit! I do think it's amazing that
>while RIFTS has been around for 11 years a> it's just gotten popular, b> they
			     ^^^^^^^^^^^^
Actually, RIFTS has only been around since 1990 or so (that is what the
copyright is on my copy, anyway).  Palladium (and a lot of the mechanics)
may have been around for 11 years or so, but not RIFTS.  And it was pretty
darn popular from the get go.  From what I remember reading, the first
printing (approx. 25,000 copies) sold out in the first week of sale.  Hell,
my copy is a third printing and I bought it when I first found it.

>just now fix some the problems, and c> they put their fixes in a book that NOT
>everyone is going to look for! I love the RIFTS gaming system it's a pleasure

Palladium used to publish corrections and other fixes in their (now defunct)
newsletter, _The Magic of Palladium Books_, as well as other goodies.

>to run and to play in... but something has gotta be done about some of the
>rules and the way they are presented... Kevin Siembieda, If your reading this,
>PLEASE MAKE THE FIXES AND ISSUE A 2ND EDITION IF YOU NEED TO!
[more stuff deleted]

Actually, I hate having to upgrade an RPG for the sake of a few fixes, or even
a lot of fixes (anything up to a complete overhaul).  I would rather see the
fixes, new rules, etc. in a supplement or magazine.  That would at least keep
the system affordable to people who already own the old versions.

Andy
-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  "I'm not insane...just a reasonable facsimile."  | Hummell@vms.cis.pitt.edu
   -- me				           | Andy Hummell     230 DLH 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: morrow@foghat.rutgers.edu (John Morrow)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: A general RPG Question
Date: 22 Dec 92 01:17:22 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

dlaird@terapin.com (Delbert Laird) writes:

>Which anime (including serial) or manga would you like to see as a
>RPG?...Specifically, why that anime or manga?

Anything by Miyazaki would make a good RPG.  Nausicaa has the
city-states in a wasteland, Laputa, Kiki's etc. have that early 20th
century feel, and Totoro could even be a good children's game.  OK,
too cutesy?  How about "Aile de Honneamise"?  All of the above (except
Totoro, of course) have a good mix of high and low tech, some have
limited "magic", and all have a LOT of room for adventure.  

If you are going to DO an anime/manga game, I would suggest you BUY a
Japanese role-playing game.  The interior design work is different and
interesting.  I own "Legend of Double Moon" and have seen a Japanese
edition of Runequest at Books Kinokuniya in NJ.  A friend has a
Japanese "High School" game.  All the interior design are similar and
a bit of a departure from what you see in American RPGs.  Note, my
Japanese is BAD, REAL BAD (I know a few dozen words and characters or
so) so don't ask me for details on the game.  I bought it primarily
for the interior design...

As for ROTL, you might be looking at a lawsuit.  I THINK TSR could 
prove Lodoss was a derivative of D&D and therefore, any derivative
of Lodoss might be a derivative of D&D.  Just look at the dragons!

John Morrow
morrow@remus.rutgers.edu
From: gm1116@albnyvms.bitnet
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: META: Game Mechanics vs. Background
Date: 22 Dec 92 05:59:03 GMT
Reply-To: gm1116@albnyvms.bitnet
Organization: University of NY at Albany


   	For core rules I prefer a good rules system, background is nice
but I don't really want to much detail.

	On the other hand, when I buy a supplement I am usually looking
for good background, with minimum refernces to the rules(this way I can 
steal background from any game to go in my cyberpunk campaign).  In this
case, I like LOTS of in depth details.  While it is relatively easy
to translate a novel to a game, there are problems. One of them deals
with interpretation.  If you tell your players that you are adapting
the Rift War saga by Robert Feist for your game world, they will make
certain assumptions which may differ from your assumptions.  Another thing
is that, at least in the circles I game with, we pass books we like around
quite frequently.  This means that you can't use any "secrets" revealed
in the books unless you don't mind the players already knowing things
their charectors shouldn't.  Lastly, many books never explain EVERYTHING.
Source books on the other hand often will go into detail on many more
aspects (good source books, such as "Death Valley Free Prison" and
"Chicago Arcology" can be as entertaining as a novell!).  Also,
you never have to worry about a player rememberiing something from the
book and getting into an argument.  Since the player shouldn't of
been reading the book in the first place, the player can't
comment on inside knowledge!  Also, most good background supplements will
give you 2 or 3 options for some secret incidents.  Even if your
players have read the book in detail they can still be kept in the dark.

Badger
GM1116@albnyvms
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc,rec.games.board
From: rleroux1@sol.UVic.CA (Roger Leroux)
Subject: Re: Dumb Moves By Game Companies
Organization: University of Victoria
Distribution: na
Date: 30 Dec 92 21:25:55 GMT

In <1992Dec30.195744.525@afterlife.ncsc.mil> acadams@afterlife.ncsc.mil (Arthur C. Adams) writes:
>what are some of the dumbest moves made by game companies?

>Avalon Hill's decision to not make RuneQuest products purely 
>Glorantha. RuneQuest players want Glorantha!

Hmmm, not. I don't use Glorantha. It's nice to have a game world, but it's
also nice that I can get supplements which are generic.

>SPI's decision to trust TSR. For those who don't remember, before SPI
>went under, they received a loan from T$R. T$R told them that they would give
>them leeway on the payments. As soon as SPI missed a payment, TSR called
>in the loan and took over the company. Bye-bye to one of the greats.
>(Incidentally, this is what I understood to have happened. If anyone
>has more, or more accurate, details, please tell me.)

Actually, TSR just decided to call the loan, at which point the rest is
history. This time, Coke did buy Pepsi. :-) Unfortuate, since I really
liked SPI. On the other hand, at the rate SPI was cranking out games, there
were a lot of dogs and rough diamonds. Some of course are now classics...

>Non-RPG companies getting into RPG's. It bloodied SPI. Avalon Hill
>never did well with anything except RuneQuest.

I disagree somewhat. Columbia has the exceptionally successful Harn world,
but they're primarily a board game company (East Front won 2 Charles
Roberts awards this year - one for best WWII game, and tied for "best
looking/aesthetic game" (whatever the category was)). It's the old story of
doing it right.

>TSR trying to sell anything non-*D&D. None of the products have
>ever done well, with the exception of Marvel Super-Heroes, and that
>was because of the license, not the game.

Not true. Certainly they haven't done nearly as well as *D&D, but then
again, TSR is the IBM of the gaming industry. IBM sells mainframes. TSR
sells *D&D. IBM sells other products which you can attach to your mainframe
or other computers in competition with others. TSR sells other
boardgames/RPG's in competition with others. It's a matter of relative
success. Any sales they do is money in the pot.

>Any other suggestions?

Chaosium selling the rights (or the selling rights) for RuneQuest to AH. I
think that if RQ had remained in Chaosium's hands that it would be a very
strong competitor with D&D (or rather, have remained a).

Roger

-- 
Roger Leroux          | The country that draws a broad line between its fighting
rleroux1@sol.uvic.ca  | men and its thinking men will find its fighting done by 
----------------------+ fools and its thinking done by cowards.
Be seeing you. DoD#43 |                            -- Sir William F. Butler
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
From: thornley@milli.cs.umn.edu (David H. Thornley)
Subject: Re: Tekumel, Empire of the Petal Throne
Organization: University of Minnesota, Minneapolis, CSci dept.
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1992 06:17:14 GMT

In article <1h827kINNb5s@mirror.digex.com> robdean@access.digex.com (Rob Dean) writes:
>In article <loren.227@wmkt.wharton.upenn.edu> loren@wmkt.wharton.upenn.edu (Loren Miller) writes:
>>[Tekumel is one of the best worlds available.]
>
It was a *long* time in the making.  M.A.R. Barker started designing the
world as a child, and has added to it over the years.  I suspect that one
way to create a good gaming world is not to try to create a good *gaming*
world, but rather to create an interesting world and only later add a game.

>>The only problem with EPT is that the rules suck.
>
>[To be fair, the current rules are almost unchanged from the original
> 1975 rules based on the original D&D, maybe with Greyhawk]

Before Greyhawk.  I don't remember when the original published EPT
came out relative to Greyhawk, but the rules were pretty much in that
form before Greyhawk came out.  Barker is, IMHO, not a great rules
writer, and the original D&D is not nearly as good as the current
RPGs.  If Barker were to do this nowadays, it would probably be something
like GURPS Tekumel or a Hero supplement or something.

He tried a second system, Swords of Glory (or some such), but only part
of the system ever came out.  I don't know offhand whether this is what
TOME is coming out with (the solo adventures are not for the original
rules system).

DHT
From: b_kondalski@vssi.trw.com (Brian J. Kondalski)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: RQ: King of Sartar
Date: 23 Dec 1992 09:29:26 -0500
Organization: TRW Vehicle Safety Systems, Inc.
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: trwvssi.vssi.trw.com
Keywords: Glorantha Runequest


I received my "King of Sartar" via UPS yesterday and have read more than half
the book.  It's well worth the money spent on it so far.  But then I love
reading Greg Stafford's Glorontha mythos.  I just hope that this is the first
of many books like this.  It would be great to get a book similar to this
about Pavis, or the Holy Country.
-- 
Brian J. Kondalski      b_kondalski@vssi.trw.com
TRW V.S.S.I.            Voice: (313) 781-7382
4505 West 26 Mile Road  Fax: (313) 786-7702             "The guaranteed-eternal
Washington, MI  48094   Views expressed here are MINE!   sanctuary man."
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc,rec.games.board