HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: harish.reddy@factory.com (Harish Reddy)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: ASTRAL PLANE
Date: 13 Sep 92 19:10:00 GMT
Reply-To: harish.reddy@factory.com (Harish Reddy)
Organization: Invention Factory's BBS - New York City, NY - 212-274-1243v.32bis

To be very concise, I am interested in the Astral plane and any info
pertinent to it.  I truly want to experience astral projection and any,
ANY information will be appreciated.


There is, or there is not. Degrees only exist in the perception.
From: malcolmc@spider.co.uk (Malcolm Campbell)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Re: (Was Shielding) Now: Letting shields down.
Date: 11 Sep 92 08:43:34 GMT
Organization: Spider Systems Limited, Edinburgh, UK

In article <83950137@otter.hpl.hp.com> cal@otter.hpl.hp.com (Colin Low) writes:
>Malcolm Campbell writes:
>
>>The technique is what I'd call 'The halo of thorns', or 'wall of thorns' if
>>you use it around a location. The intention is that any attack thrown
>>against it hurts the attacker, more so the more violent the attack.
>
>I think this is really an interpretation of the adage that "the best form
>of defense is attack", and the fact that you are standing on castle
>walls while pouring boiling oil doesn't alter the fact that it
>is a deliberate counter attack. I guess any shielding technique could be 
>combined with a counter attack.


I disagree.. Placing barbed wire on top of a wall that someone might try to
climb over isnt an attack. Placing a minefield around a defensive position
isnt an attack. Pouring boiling oil off castle walls might be, but thats not
what Im doing..

Theres an important difference between a defense which counter-attacks, and
a defense which allows you to hurt yourself on it.

I think the former is weak, in magical terms. The counter-attack can be
turned back on your own defenses.. A completely passive defense, such as
a halo/wall of thorns, barbed wire etc - doesnt have that possibility.

-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Malcolm Campbell                          |   Spider Systems Limited
                                            |   Spider Park, Stanwell Street
- malcolmc@spider.co.uk   +44 31 554 9424   |   Edinburgh, EH6 5NG, Scotland
From: eddie@hermes.oit.unc.edu (Edward M. Averett)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: (Was shields down) Now: morality of love as force
Date: 11 Sep 92 21:59:19 GMT
Organization: University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill

In article <BuF24B.IKH@acsu.buffalo.edu> oispeggy@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (Peggy Brown) writes:
>We have some definition problems here, as usual.  Following are 
>
We sure do.  I find your comments interesting.  However, I am just going to 
agree to disagree on this one, and let it drop, since not a thing you said
in this post was something I even vaguely agreed with, or even was relevant
to what I was talking about. If the conceptual differences are that large, 
then this limited forum is certainly not the place to go into a vast 
discussion on the meaning of an entire vocabulary of basic terms.  I am 
occasionally willing to address certain specifics of vocabulary, but not
(unless everyone says, "Oh yes, let's!"), entire sets of jargon. 

This may have something to do also with your feelings of apparent insecurity 
about there being a conspiracy organization on this group.  If there is a 
substantial subset of writers here with a vocabulary in which you skew so 
badly that a majority of primary basic concepts are addressed in entirely 
different ways, then it becomes easier to see that you may feel left out. 

For my part, while I see occasional "groupings" that seem to come and go 
in either basic writing styles, or content oriented posting, I can identify
no such critter.  


			-eddie@legba.oit.unc.edu

	"Shape clay into a vessel, it is the hole which makes it useful" 
	"5 spokes share the wheel's hub, it the hole which makes it useful" 
	"Build a house, it is the doors and windows which make it useful"  
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: joshua@coombs.anu.edu.au (Joshua Geller)
Subject: Re: Easter's date
Organization: Computer Services Centre, Australian National University
Date:  7 Sep 92 13:45:36 GMT

SL500000@brownvm.brown.edu (Robert Mathiesen) writes:

>At least the Greeks (I'm not sure about the Romans) who wrote on this calcu-
>lation, moreover, referred to the 19 dates of the full moons in question 

metonic cycle?

>                                                                           as
>the dates of the "Passover of the Jews," and the very few of them who hap-
>pened to be aware that the actual Jewish calendar placed Passover on dif-
>ferent dates than these (usually earlier, and there is no 19-year recursive
>cycle either) 

there isn't? don't the lunar and solar calendars (ie, full or new moon
coinciding with the solstices or something). coincide in 19 year cycles?

>              simply asserted that the Jews had misunderstood how their own
>calendar *ought* to work, and *ought* to celebate their passover when the
>Christian computation said they should.  

well, both the greek calendar(s) and the jewish one descend ultimately from
the sumerian lunar / solar calendar (as do the chinese etc (or, possibly,
the chinese is equally old and just assembled a similar way because of people
doing similar things with the same information. 'it steam engines when it
comes steam engine time; it lunar / solar calendars when it comes 
lunar / solar calendar time')). other calendars (ours for instance) descend
from the egyptian calendar (or one of the egyptian calendars).

>                                           (Although this is simply arrogant,
>as they put it, there is in fact some reason to think that the Christian
>computation is also of Jewish origin, and that in the centuries just before
>and after Christ that there was more than one Jewish calendar and more than
>one way of computing Jewish passover -- the Christian bishops just adopted
>one variant, the Rabbis another.)  

in fact, this is true. the apochryphal 'book of enoch' (not to be confused
with any of the john dee enochian stuff). shows one of the other calendars
in question (a solar, egyptian style one. I personally tend to relate the
conflict between solar calendar jews and the solar / lunar calendar jews to
political conflict between judaean and alexandrian jews in the late
centuries BC, but that's another matter).

josh
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: eddie@hermes.oit.unc.edu (Edward M. Averett)
Subject: Re: Smalltalk
Organization: University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 22:17:38 GMT

In article <83950134@otter.hpl.hp.com> cal@otter.hpl.hp.com (Colin Low) writes:
>I had a question about the Smalltalk Blue Book, and I appreciate it was an
>obscure throwaway remark, so I'll try to explain why it has its place in
>my library of sacred magical texts (along with Misner, Thorne and Wheeler's
>`Gravitation' ;-)
>
>I am being perfectly serious for a change, which is the worst possible omen.
[lots of cool stuff deleted]

Now this is something I could sink my teeth into.  Cool stuff. You have
*moved* me to find a copy of this blue book and begin to examine it

Have you considered writing it up so and translating all the stuff in smalltalk
over to the Tree of Life vocabulary, and then writing a translations program
which will convert programs in smalltalk to treetalk and see what you get? -)

Thanks for pointing out this congruence to me.  I'll add it to my chess, 
go, dna, tonal scales, and other measuring sticks which map well onto Tree 
of Life. 

				-eddie@legba.oit.unc.edu

From: cal@otter.hpl.hp.com (Colin Low)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 20:44:50 GMT
Subject: Re: Shields
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Laboratories, Bristol, UK.
Newsgroups: alt.magick

I thought it would be worth recording the shielding techniques before
the discussion moves on. I don't have time to write it up in detail,
but I think something ought to go in the FAQ.

1. Reflective. Dispose of unwanted energy by sending it back to source.
   Can use mirrors as a physical basis.

2. Defensive. Block out an intrusion using a magical barrier of
   some kind - Eddie has documented several methods and they could go
   in here.

3. Absorbtive. Absorb the influence and earth it through you using
   self-annihilation.

4. Transformative. Take the influence and transform it into something positive 
   - love it to death.

5. The Tinkerbell technique. You refuse to believe in fairies. (Sorry Josh ;-)
   I couldn't think of a good name for "making something go away by refusing
   to believe in it".

People seem to have individual preferences, but I think it would be a
mistake to make value judgements about the merits of the different
techniques - different things are appropriate at different times.

Colin
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: grimoire@byron.u.washington.edu (John Greer)
Subject: Re: (Was shields down) Now: morality of love as force
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 18:53:15 GMT

What is the opposite of love?

Inertia.  (That's _accidia_, technically, if there are any other
medieval philosophy junkies out there.)  Every action performed
by any living being is performed out of some form or distortion
of love.  Hate?  That's simply love of self, expressed in the
context of an ignorance that sees the good of the self as
necessarily threatened by some other's good.

Every passion, every motivating force, is a kind of love.
Therefore the opposite of love is also the opposite of passion,
motivation, action.  It's also, at least as I see it, the opposite 
of magic.

Call it indifference or apathy if you like.  However you say it,
it beats hatred (and every other distortion of love) hands down
as a source of suffering and destruction in the world.

-- John Michael Greer
   grimoire@u.washington.edu

  


Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: joshua@cpac.washington.edu (Joshua Geller)
Subject: Re: The pentagram
Organization: Institue for the Study of Ancient Science
	<186pvkINN6ns@maico.ksu.ksu.edu>
	<1992Sep8.013839.20454@samba.oit.unc.edu>
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 03:55:30 GMT


In article <1992Sep8.013839.20454@samba.oit.unc.edu> shava@hermes.oit.unc.edu 
(Shava Nerad Averett) writes:

>   In article <186pvkINN6ns@maico.ksu.ksu.edu> lazarus@maico.ksu.ksu.edu 
>   (Bart -Laz- Smith) writes:

>>>   [666 being a code for caesar]

>   Backwards, again, I'm afraid.  666 is listed as 'the number of the beast' 
>  in John's Revelation.  It is associated in that work as a number having to 
>  do with evil.  Since John set pen to paper, every enemy of christianity, 
>  from the Caesars to Dan Quayle (don't ask...;) has been associated with the
>   number 666 by some obscure path.

um, john wrote during either the neronic persecution or domitians persecution.
it's pretty widely thought that 666 is a code for either nero or domitian.

josh
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: mesm@netcom.com (Mary E. S. Morris)
Subject: Re: questions
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 92 04:01:59 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 
Distribution: alt.magick

Some of the most common mystic Christian writings have come 
from the supposed mainstream author CS Lewis. He and a few 
buddies all wrote fiction about Christian mysticisim.
Charles Williams was one. He wrote the Greater Trumps (Tarot)
All Hallows Eve and others

I have personally found that there is more of God in a blade
of grass than in the Bible. I abide by the Christian faith,
but not the Christian religion.

But different people have different ideas about what Jesus was
literally and figuritivly.

The differing opinions about Gnosism show that.

: Where's the starting point???

Where ever you are...you must have some specific areas that 
interest you more than others. Start by reading some stuff
from them.

Start by believing that you can affect the world, alot of 
problems come from hesitating when you need the internal
belief that what you are doing will work. A light hearted
approach to this might be "Illusions - the adventures
of a reluctant messiah -- by Richard Bach.

Second, become more aware. Notice the details. Pick an area
to study. Try to find a non-standard way of affecting things.
One study actuallly found that if a cleck actually made contact
with a customer (ex. making physical contact while giving change)
the customer was happier.

: 
: I have always been interested in the art of magik but I have never followed it
: up and I don't know if I would because of my religion.  But whether I follow it
: up or not the interest will always be there and I will stay tuned to this
: channel and once and awhile ask some dumb questions. Hope this doesn't bother
: anyone.  

--
Mary E. S. Morris    |  The future exists first in imagination, then
mesm@netcom.COM      |  in will, then in reality. -- Galivan Burwell
=====================================================================
Netcom - Online Communication Services San Jose, CA
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: mcgrath@cs.uiuc.edu (Robert McGrath)
Subject: Re: This post composed before a live studio audience
Reply-To: mcgrath@cs.uiuc.edu
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept of Computer Science
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 20:08:45 GMT

In article <13SEP199220211463@zeus.tamu.edu>, spb0457@zeus.tamu.edu (SubGenius) writes:
|> The other day I was slumped in front of the carniverous coaxial creature at 
|> some wee small hour and one of those programmes about "wierd shit" was on.
|> 
|> In addition to the usual loonyness (UFOs, Big Foots, floating Maharishis
|> u.s.w.), there was an interesting bit about some lad who allegedly could
|> make images appear on film with some sort of SCARY MAGICKAL MENTAL POWER.
|> 
|> Anyway, they tested him first by using 35mm cameras:  He'd place his fingers
|> over the lens, concentrate, and tell one of the "scientific crew" when to
|> snap the shot.  Sometimes the exposures were nothing, but sometimes they had
|> the images the crew had shown to the fellow.  What's interesting is that they
|> usually weren't very good photographs in the sense that the psychic chap kept
|> getting things slightly wrong--the ferinstance I recall is when the showed him
|> a photo of an aeroplane, the image he produced had several of the struts out
|> of place.
|> 
|> Later, he tried the same thing with motion picture cameras.  The footage the
|> show I was watching presented consisted of him approaching the camera, rubbing
|> his hand over the lens, and various hazy images appearing in splotches on the
|> film.
|> 
|> 
|> I was wondering if anyone out there could identify the gentleman in question,
|> similar cases, and/or any documentary material on the same.

Was this Ted Serios?  He was making a name for himself about the time
that series was made.  He was tested and certified genuine by Putoff
and Targ at SRI, the same folks that Uri Geller hoaxed to the gills
around that time.  I think TS is dead now.

Several magicians actually saw Serios reaching into his pocket for 
his 'gizmo', which was a tube with a lense and a photo taped on the end.
He held it up to the camera and, voila, an image appeared on the film!
Amazing!

I am reliably informed by magicians that this is a standard, trivial,
magic trick, sold in any magic store.  However, a good magician
would palm the sucker so well that you'd never see him or her put it
up to the lens.  TS relied on gumption to achieve what skill couldn't.

TS's phenomenon was mostly a tribute to the gullability of humanity, not
sign of any particular psychic power.

-- 
  Robert E. McGrath
  Urbana Illinois
  mcgrath@cs.uiuc.edu
From: v085r6qm@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Erin D Markle)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: authors not Crowley
Date: 8 Sep 92 01:32:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41


AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!
-------sorry. I hate this tool called, "COMPUTER."

Judgosh's (un)response to my first request
what the hell was that?

Judging from Josh's (un)response to my first message,
I'm going to assume that his reply was actually communi-
cating an idea and not just the result of kind boredom.
THEREFORE, my information request (message 5961-- I don't
know my editer well at all) about authors like David Conway
and W.E. Butler will be clarified:

                |||| W.E. Butler ||||
(author, Liberal Catholic priest,magician,...died in 1978)
      I have found his work to much appeal to my sense
of the importance of Christ figures. I wasn't religously
reared, yet the idea of Christ (yes, capital "C") seems
to be an unavoidable issue on the path to inner enlighten-
ment.
I know that this kind of recognition is no more imperative
to the use of magic. (sorry about the k, I think we can all
deal.) ... as it is to eating or scratching your butt. I
have gathered though,that this recognition takes quite a
load off so that eating and scratching your butt can be 
more freely enjoyed. I DON'T KNOW. Dion Fortune also seemed
to be a Christ advocate, so I was wondering how much of this
network was hostile to this idea Christ acceptance as a 
helpful bridge to understanding. (I'm not a converter or
shaky about my path--- I'm very curious about the potential
applications of bombshell discussions) I can drop this 
discussion if no one is interested without feeling cheated.

                 |||| David Conway ||||
Has anyone read his THE MAGIC OF HERBS? Is it useful as a 
reference source for recipes? Also, has anyone read, MAGIC: AN 
OCCULT PRIMER? I haven't tried the rituals, but I was wondering
if someone else has, and to what effect.

 I'm getting kicked off the phone line now,
                                         Friend of Erin
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: friday@netcom.com (Carol Anne Ogdin)
Subject: Re: inner circle
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 92 07:26:07 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 

In <kefzKYu00WBLA92K5N@andrew.cmu.edu> Shawn Clayton Knight <knightster+@CMU.EDU> writes:

>i gotta agree on this one ... i have often felt uncomfortable on
>alt.magick ... because a lot of my views have been the result of my own
>imagination and meditations, as opposed to the right texts.


People who possess a limited world view will insist that you must adopt
theirs to be "accepted."  You may disregard such nonsense...as many of
us do.  The most magickal, in my experience, are those with the most
flexibility and tolerance; it is one of the unsung secrets of magick.
>Now mind you I am an avid Crowley reader, and am currently reading
>really petty things.


The hostility often comes from people who are, themselves, insecure.
You may identify the insecure by their hostility; it is a clear hallmark.

--Friday
-- 
---   ---   ---   ---   ---   ---   ---   ---   ---   ---   ---   ---
    - Friday -                      "Practice random acts of kindness 
      friday@well.sf.ca.us                      and senseless beauty."
      (aka Carol Anne Ogdin@Santa Clara, CA)
From: friday@netcom.com (Carol Anne Ogdin)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Now: Letting shields down.
Date: 9 Sep 92 01:02:27 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)


Nice piece of work, eddie!
-- 
---   ---   ---   ---   ---   ---   ---   ---   ---   ---   ---   ---
    - Friday -                      "Practice random acts of kindness 
      friday@well.sf.ca.us                      and senseless beauty."
      (aka Carol Anne Ogdin@Santa Clara, CA)
From: cal@otter.hpl.hp.com (Colin Low)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 16:24:36 GMT
Subject: Re: ASTRAL PLANE
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Laboratories, Bristol, UK.
Newsgroups: alt.magick

Harish Reddy writes:

>To be very concise, I am interested in the Astral plane and any info
>pertinent to it.  I truly want to experience astral projection and any,
>ANY information will be appreciated.

Astral Projection (in the classic sense of Muldoon & Carrington's
"The Projection of the Astral Body") is now usually equated to an
"Out of the Body Experience" (OBE) and the topic is frequently discussed
on alt.dreams, along with the related (if not identical) topic of
lucid dreaming. 

I've been flamed in the past for suggesting OBEs and lucid dreaming might
be related, but after an attempt to resolve the question on alt.dreams
I got such confusing and contradictory information that I think that the
people who flamed me knew no more than anyone else. I'd welcome any reasoned
discussion on this topic.

>There is, or there is not. Degrees only exist in the perception.

There is. Again, alt.dreams is a good place to look for a multitude
of suggestions as to inducing this state, although in my own case I haven't
found any to be useful. Lucid dreaming is a relatively common state, but 
more people claim to have lucid dreams than claim to have the full
OBE sensation of leaving the body. I find I become lucid in a dream and
from there I know how to induce the OBE feeling; whether the resulting
state is radically distinct from a lucid dream, or whether one state
is nested in the other I don't know, and while there are plenty of opinions,
I'm not sure anyone has worked out an objective way of telling.

OBE is an amazing experience, magical in every sense, and I'm surprised
how rarely it is mentioned here. For those who haven't experienced it 
I'll say the following:

 - the sensation of leaving the body is unmistakable and very vivid; I am
   fully conscious and I float out of my body. It feels *exactly* like
   I am floating out of my body.

 - my vision is extremely sharp and realistic. I can see and hear, but
   don't recall smelling anything. Sometimes I have tunnel vision, with
   an area of focus which varies in size.

 - I can formulate conscious plans and intentions, usually something I
   worked out while `awake'. I can move around, and passing through walls,
   floors and doors feels weird.

 - I can create things out of thin air (or thin aethyr perhaps).

 - the general sensation of "being in the world" (whatever world that might
   be) is as real or more real than `real life'. It's fun.


I haven't a clue how to tell anyone how to do it. I think it is 80%
physiology and 20% psychology; if I don't get the physiological conditions
right, nothing happens. Mild fasting seems to help considerably in my
case.

Colin           
Newsgroups: alt.magick