From: ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis )
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: Re: Albanians and Pseudo-Macedonia
Date: 11 Oct 92 22:47:09 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana

sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog) writes:

>> Well, perhaps I was not clear.  They clearly said the following:
>> "We object to the recognition of the Republic of Macedonia."
>> This should be very clear now.
>>
>> And you should realize the following: the Albanians also have strong
>> objections to the recognition of this state even if it would change
>> its name.

>Yes, I know this. And the claim that the Albanians object to the
>name "Macedonia" per se, has just been proven to be nothing but
>Greek propaganda. 
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 You are saying things that you want to believe.  Aren't the Albanians
 objecting to the use of this name, yes or no?  Their objections are
 in some aspects because of different reasons than the Greek objections,
 but they exist.  Propaganda is either when you are twisting the facts,
 or when you are lying.  I haven't heard a Greek saying that the Albanians
 object to the use of the name because of the same reasons with the Greeks.
 That would be ridiculous.

>Macedonia secession from Yugoslavia. (*Why* is something I haven't
>really understood.

 This isn't the first thing that you haven't understood.  You tend to
 understand things that you want to understand.  You cannot understand
 why Greeks are not objecting to the use of the name Athens in so many
 cities in the U.S. but they object to the use of the name "Macedonia"
 from Skopje.

 When I see that cities in the U.S. are using Greek names, I feel proud
 about this.  The exact opposite is hapening when Skopje are trying to
 use the name Macedonia for their state: I feel angry (to say the least).
 Why is this hapening? Several people have explained it.  You are
 refusing to understand it.

>I hope you understand that these figures are Albanian propaganda
>and there is no factual support for them. The only supported figure
>we have at hand is 21%, from the 1991 census. Now this data is a bit
>unreliable since the Albanians boycotted the census, and if anyone
>has the 1981 census available I would be interested. Don't you think
>it's interesting that the Albanians boycotted the census? Maybe they
>didn't want their true number to be revealed?

 The 1981 census showed a 35% (as I recall) of Albanians in Skopje. Taking
 into consideration their higher birth rate, I fail to see why their
 actual number couldn't be 40%.

>If you want to appear as a serious debatteur you shouldn't use this
>number of 40% as an undisputed fact, but an unconfirmed claim.

>>Note that one of the three conditions for the recognition of this state by
>>the EC is the full respect of the rights of the Albanian minority (if the
>>40% could even be a minority ...).

>You know very well Panos, that Macedonia passed the test on all these 
>three conditions.

 Do you have any proof for this?

>>>There is one very good evidence: they say that they are not Bulgarians.
>>
>> Which again supports my claims that these people are "brainwashed."

>Panos, you are not Greek. Just because you say are Greek doesn't
>prove anything. I know you cannot be Greek. Because how could a
>descender of such great men as Perikles, Sokrates, and Aristoteles
>write so much crap as you do? You are not Greek, and I know it. If
>you believe you are Greek, it is only because you are brainwashed.

 If Perikles, Sokrates, and Aristoteles were alive to see what these
 people are saying, they would give you an answer.

>Seriously, I will never accept patronizing arguments over con-
>senting adults. If we cannot allow other people to freely choose
>their ethnical affiliation, how can we then with clean hearts
>grant ourselves the same rights? If we don't allow them to express
>their will, how can we claim any "freedom of speech"? If the best
>we can say "they are brain-washed", we only prove that we ourselves
>are brain-washed and lost our possibility to independent thinking.

 I have said several times, that the name "Republic of Slavic Macedonia"
 is fine with me.  And I have said several Times that this was proposed
 to Skopje by Greece.  Unfortunatelly, it was rejected from Skopje.

>> You should have the courage to admit that this Macedonian issue is a result
>> of the communist Tito, who used the name after WWII, with only one
>> objective: to annex northern part of Greece, which rightfully bears the
>> name Macedonia for 4,000 years.

>Maybe. It is not relevant today, anyway.

   It is relevant.  Read what the U.S. secretary of state said on December 26,
   1944: "This goverment considers any talk of a Macedonian nation,
   Macedonian Fatherland or Macedonian national consciousness to be 
   unjustified demagogeury representing no ethnic or political reality ...
   a possible cloak for aggressive intensions against Greece."

>Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - sommar@enea.se

 Panos Tamamidis