HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: rwh@visual.com (Rob Holzel)
Subject: Bernstein's Berlin Phil. Mahler Ninth
Organization: Visual
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 93 19:53:23 GMT

Anybody else got this?  Did you read the review in the new Fanfare?
It pointed out something that I must admit I'd never have caught on
my own -- that at the climactic buildup to the cymbal crash in the
Adagio finale, the trombones are missing!  After comparing between
another version, I can indeed hear the difference, and it's very
puzzling.

I'd be interested in any theories about how and why this happened. 
In my wildest imaginings, I wonder if the orchestra did it on purpose,
as an act of rebellion against their guest conductor.  Or could
he have requested that they sit that part out?  Weird.

The rest of the performance (and even that moment of missing brass)
is rivetting -- edgy, immediate, and tremendously passionate.  I'm
now tempted to sample the Concertgebouw Ninth Bernstein did for DG.
Any comments on that one, please?  At least I can assume the trombones
play for the duration of the work.  :-)

Rob
From: somak@head-cfa.harvard.edu (Somak Raychaudhury)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Beethoven quartets
Date: 29 Jan 93 02:39:43 GMT
Organization: Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory, Cambridge, MA,  USA



I'd go for the ASV Lindsay quartet recordings (for
the late quartets) any day. They are imported
from Britain, and since I guess you'd be buying them in Boston
as I did, they would indeed empty one's pockets. But, they're worth it!
The Tower harvard square store had them, when I last looked.
From: kahn@troi.cc.rochester.edu (James Kahn)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Heifetz (was Re: I need CD recommendations of Bach's Sonatas...)
Date: 21 Jan 93 21:04:28 GMT
Organization: University of Rochester (Rochester, NY)

>Does any one like Heifetz, at all?  I found him to be too much less musical 
>than technical.  And  I hate his performance of the Bach's Sonatas and 
>Partitas, though I have a set of his CD.

The question is obviously rhetorical, but I like his no-nonsense, (dare
I say it) masculine style, at least for some pieces.  For example, I'm
quite fond of the Heifetz-Bay recordings of the Beethoven sonatas.  "Musical"
doesn't just mean generating the sweetest most syrupy sound you can get
from a violin.

JK
From: diarmuid@uniwa.uwa.edu.au (Diarmuid Pigott)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Symphonic form and style
Date: 26 Jan 1993 15:09:55 +0800
Organization: The University of Western Australia
NNTP-Posting-Host: uniwa.uwa.edu.au
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5

Diarmuid Pigott (diarmuid@uniwa.uwa.edu.au) wrote:
: I presume you mean living composers:
: Some say the mantle of Shostakovich fell on Schnittke's shoulder (on
: Bis). Others strongly agree. 

Whoops! - that's disagree.
From: gpalo@digi.lonestar.org (Gerry Palo)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Define "Well Tempered"
Date: 26 Jan 93 16:42:37 GMT
Organization: DSC Communications Corp, Plano, TX

In article <1993Jan22.155421.21393@netcom.com> hatunen@netcom.com (David W Ha
tunen) writes:
>In a scientifically proper musical scale, related harmonics are
>related by integer relationships. This was discovered by the
>ancient Greeks. Thus, the frequencies should be as, say, 5:3.
>
>Unfortunately, this means that you must retune your instrument
>for each different scale you wish to play. Which is impossible
>with some instruments. In the evenly tempered scale, the octave,
>or 2:1 relationship is divided into twelve geometrically evenly
>spaced intervals. Take the twelfth root of two (approx 1.05946..).
>Each tone bears this relationship to the next lowest tone.
>That way, no matter what scale you play, it will sound harmonically
>the same.
>
>The problem is that a third interval is no longer exactly a third;
>that is, it no longer consists of two tones in a simple integer
>relationship. It's very close, but no cigar, and the difference
>is noticable.
>
>So, an even tempered scale doesn't sound quite as good as a
>diatonic scale. But it makes the piano possible (you don't have
>to retune for each different scale) and it makes music with
>key changes possible.
>
>As I understand it, Bach wrote the Well-tempered Klavier as a
>demonstration of the advantages of an even tempered scale.


This has been my impression, which leads me to the idea that Bach
indeed had equal temperament in mind, since you have to be
able to play all the preludes and fugues at the same keyboard
without tuning.  In practice, it may be possible to bias the
tuning away from equal temperament to favor the more commonly
used keys -- those harmonically related to C and the keys that
are playable by the non-tunable instruments, which from some 
of the posts in this thread is often done. I.e., there are
not a whole lot of pieces in C-flat or G-sharp, so why not
accommodate the more common ones, and especially the other
instruments and the human voice?  

(Question:  Are there any serious orchestral or large ensemble 
pieces written in one of the far out keys?  And are there any 
with piano?  If so, what kinds of tuning problems do they have?)+

As for the viability of equal temperament, I still ask, and
suggest, that the development of tonality based around the
concept of key, makes equal temperament a viable possibility
because of the fact that a tonal piece establishes its own
harmonic framework, asserts its own tonic by surrounding it with
harmonic swings from dominant to tonic to the subdominant side,
etc.  This self-establishing tonal horizon and the tonal per-
spective that emerges from it may or may not be well crafted,
or it may be deliberately left vague, but it tends to speak
so much more "loudly" than the slight dissonances of inexact
tuning that those dissonances matter even less than they would
in earlier, modal music.

Gerry Palo (73237.2006@compuserve.com)
From: dadams@cray.com (David Adams)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Sterio Reciever Advice Wanted
Date: 27 Jan 93 21:59:05 GMT
Reply-To: dadams@cray.com
Organization: Cray Research, Inc.

I wonder if anyone could give me some advice about purchasing 
a new sterio receiver.

My main purpose in purchasing a reciever or a sterio system, is for
listening to quality classical music.  I'll start by asking questions
about the receiver, because that is what I will probably buy first.


Q.	How important is "Dolby Pro Logic"?  I mean, I know it will
	make video watching more enjoyable by making you feel like
	you are in the scene, but just what will it do for Bach's
	little fuge in G-minor?

Q.	How important are the atmosphere immitations.  (Like "Theator",
	"Jazz club", "Disco", "Stadium"?)



---
--David C. Adams  Statistician  Cray Research Inc.  dadams@cray.com
___________________________________________________________________
       Old Sourdoughs never die.  They just ferment away.
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: help to identify a tune from Bach is requested
Originator: news@nimaster
Reply-To: roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig)
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1993 17:14:44 GMT

In article <1993Jan19.094229.11277@email.tuwien.ac.at> rainer@eimoni.tuwien.ac.at writes:
>In article <38182@uflorida.cis.ufl.edu> gott@pine.circa.ufl.edu (GOTTESMAN)  
>writes:
>> Can anyone help me with this:

>> There is a bourree by Bach that is in my head and
>> I wish I could humm it for you so that you could reaily
>> I mean readily identify for me but I cannot here so I
>> will sort of sing it ..

>> ________________________________
>> 
>> e|: a e a e|f fe d f |e d c b| (right hand of course all this..)
>> 
>> dcbc a e| g g
>>           e e
>> g fe f  f  f  f ed e
>>            d  d
>
>I'm pretty sure that this is from one of the 3 partitas for solo violin
>(either B-minor or E-major, I think).

B minor, of course!          

Roger


Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: jprien@gn.ecn.purdue.edu (Jamison R. Prien)
Subject: Re: Music ruined by movies
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 93 16:41:17 GMT

While we're on the subject, does anyone know the piece that was used in 
the trailers for _Havana_?  I had assumed it was written for the movie,
because it didn't sound classical, until I heard it in the previews for a
new one, about hispanic gangs or the like. Its title was Blood something.
I don't remember seeing this in the FAQ; I'm sure I would have written
it down.

If anyone knows what I'm talking about, what is that 'windy' sounding 
instrument which plays the main melody?  It was used in some Venezuelan
music I'd like my girlfriend to send me.

Pardon my ignorance, and thanks for the help.
-- 
Jamison R. Prien

jprien@gn.ecn.purdue.edu
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: mjw@Xenon.Stanford.EDU (Michael Wolverton)
Subject: Re: Mahler 7
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University.
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 23:06:54 GMT

In article <1993Jan25.015317.8848@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> jcm2w@kelvin.seas.Virginia.EDU (John Clarke Mccanless) writes:
>
>I love this 7th, also,ut for some reason, perhaps Bud Herseth's amazing
>intensity (as principal trumpet), I like the Abbado/Chicago recording a
>hair better.  

   I feel ill-qualified to participate in this discussion, since I
haven't heard any of the recordings mentioned so far (Solti, Abbado,
Rattle, Bernstein, Horenstein, etc.).  But I will say that I really
like my recording of this piece by Eliahu Inbal and the Frankfurt
Radio Symphony.  I haven't heard any of the competitors, but for me
the Inbal is one of those "I can't imagine a better recording"
recordings.  In fact, if someone were to ask me to show them some
great orchestral brass playing (and great first trumpet playing in
particular), I'd without hesitation grab the Inbal recording of the
7th from my shelf and put on the last movement.  This from the
Frankfurt *Radio* Symphony?!!!

Anyone else know this recording?

-Michael

-- 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael Wolverton                       "Is that clear?"
mjw@cs.stanford.edu                     "No, but it's consistent!"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: bweiner@ruhets.rutgers.edu (Benjamin Weiner)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Music killed by movies
Date: 24 Jan 93 23:51:31 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

eclipse@netcom.com (Brian McCullough) writes:

>Piece:  "Ride of the Valkyries"; Composer:  Richard Wagner
>Culprit:  Chuck Jones, Warner Bros. Pictures

>   I will NEVER be able to hear this again without thinking:
>   "Kill the Wabbit!  Kill the Wabbit!  Kill the Wabbit!!!!"

Well, tastes vary.  For me, this is an advantage.

Ben
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: dbarker@spang.Camosun.BC.CA (Deryk Barker)
Subject: Re: I need CD recommendations of Bach's Sonatas and Partitas Vln Solo
Organization: Camosun College, Victoria B.C, Canada
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 02:19:35 GMT

dbarker@spang.Camosun.BC.CA (Deryk Barker) writes:
: inr@eccles.caltech.edu (I. Neill Reid) writes:
: : >From: xilin@northstar.dartmouth.edu ()
: : 
: : >Does any one like Heifetz, at all?  I found him to be too much less musical 
: : >than technical.  And  I hate his performance of the Bach's Sonatas and 
: : >Partitas, though I have a set of his CD.
: : 
: : 
: : >Xilin
: : 
: :  Yes, I like Heifetz - he _was_ undoubtedly one of the best technicians
: : ever to play the violin (maybe even the best ever to record - there's 
: : the famous story of a violinist and pianist attending one of Heifetz'
: : early concerts in the US. Some way into the concert, the violinist starts
: : to shift on his seat, pull at his collar and eventually mutters
: :  `Getting hot in here'
: :  to which the pianist replied, `Only for violinists').
: 
: It was Heifetz's debut in New York (Carnegie Hall?). News of his
: European triumphs had crossed the Atlantic so everybody who was
: everybody in the musical world was there. The pianist in question was
: the great Leopold Godowsky, I have a feeling the violinist was Carl
: Flesch, but I'll have to check this with my reference books. The
: alternative version has Gododowsky's reply as 'not for pianists'.

I've checked, It was Carnegie Hall, October 1917. The violinist was
Mischa Elman.

--
Real:  Deryk Barker, Computer Science Dept., Camosun College, Victoria B.C.
Email: (dbarker@spang.camosun.bc.ca)
Phone: +1 604 370 4452
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: terjer@ifi.unit.no (Terje Rydland)
Subject: Discoveries of 1992
Followup-To: rec.music.classical
Organization: IfI, UNIT-AVH
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 93 08:29:03 GMT

Somebody here earlier asked about musical "discoveries" of 1992; 
well here are mine:

1: Giuseppe Martucci : La Canzone dei Ricordi/Notturno
                       (available on Hyperion CDA 66290)

2: Karl Ditters von Ditterdorf : 6 symphonies after Ovid

	  recorded by C.P.O.(or is it Prague C.O. - can't remember)/Gregor on
Supraphon
   and Cantilena on Chandos.
   I haven't heard Cantilena, but I have the Supraphon recording
   and this is really superb.

3: Rachmaninovs piano music (recorded complete by Shelley on Hyperion)
   

Terje Rydland
Dept. of Informatics, UNIT, Trondheim, Norway
Internet : terjer@ifi.unit.no
AppleLink: NOR0103
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: apter@fid.morgan.com (Steve Apter)
Subject: Re: Messaien Organ Music - Recommendations Please
Organization: Morgan Stanley & Co., New York, NY
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 20:51:42 GMT

In article <1993Jan25.180530.3706@viewlogic.com> brad@buck.viewlogic.com (Bradford Kellogg) writes:
>
>Here are some of the pieces that are currently available:
>
>Apparition de l'Eglise eternelle
>L'Ascension
>Le banquet celeste
>Les corps glorieux
>Diptyque
>Livre d'orgue
>Livre du Saint Sacrement
>Messe de la Pentecote
>La nativite du Seigneur
>Verset pour le fete de la dedicace
>
>Much of this is available on the BIS label.
>
>If you really want to get into it, Messiaen himself recorded his
>complete organ works in 1956, available on Angel.


I'd reverse Bradford's recommendation:  begin with Messiaen's own
recording on EMI.  Four disks for about $40.  Sound, not too bad;
organ, peculiar; interpretation, inimitable.

Otherwise, I prefer Louis Thiery's set on Calliope to both Jennifer
Bate (on Unicorn) and Susan Lansdale (on Ades).  An unforgettable 
"Apparition".


>
>- BK


Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: frank@rover.uchicago.edu (Frank - Hardware Hacker - Borger)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Durante & Helen Traubel
Keywords: Seen in Jack Burke's column:
Date: 21 Jan 93 16:47:00 GMT
Reply-To: frank@rover.uchicago.edu
Organization: Joint Center for Radiation Therapy
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41


	During his wonderful career, Jimmy Durante developed some enter-
	taining comedy routines with contralto Helen Traubel. Once Jimmy
	is reported to have blundered into her dressing room when she was
	not expecting visitors. Emerging hastily, a red-faced Jimmy shouted:

	"Nobody knows the Traubel I've seen."

   Frank R. Borger - Physicist    __       George Halas had two heirs; one
Michael Reese - Univ. of Chicago |___      carried his seed and one carried his
  Center for Radiation Therapy   | |_) _   soul. ... One can imagine the wisper
    "Birthplace of Softball"       | \|_)  of George Halas, rooting for his
Internet:  Frank@rover.uchicago.edu   |_)  soul. - Jeannie Morris
Phone : 312-791-8075 fax : 567-7455        
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: jtbell@hubcap.clemson.edu (Jon Bell)
Subject: Re: Sibelius suggestions?
Organization: Presbyterian College, Clinton SC
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 21:57:35 GMT

In article <1993Jan25.174641.3473@viewlogic.com> brad@buck.viewlogic.com (Bradford Kellogg) writes:
>
>In article <JWA.93Jan23014712@vipunen.hut.fi>, jwa@vipunen.hut.fi (Jyrki J Wahlstedt) writes:
>|> In article <1993Jan21.165953.2003@ifi.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> snripe@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Sailendra Nripendra) writes:
>|> >I wondered why nobody suggested the incidental music THE TEMPEST;
>|> >the prelude part (op. 109?) is an extraordinary piece of orchestral
>|> >music. 
>|> 
>|>   Now the complete set is available on BIS by the Orchestra of Lahti
>|>   (don't remember the catalogue number). That should be interesting.
>|> --
>The catalog number on BIS is CD-448, but the orchestra is the Gothenburg
>Symphony, conducted by Jarvi, according to Schwann.

That's an older recording which contains the "standard" Prelude and Suites.
The newer recording is indeed by the Lahti Symphony Orchestra under Vanska
and is the world premiere recording of the complete score which Sibelius
wrote for the Copenhagen production of "The Tempest" in the 1920s.

It came out very recently.  I got my copy at Tower Records in Atlanta 
on Thanksgiving weekend, before I saw any mention of it in Gramophone, etc.
My eyes popped wide open when I saw it.

Gramophone does have a review in the issue which just arrived a couple
of days ago (a favorable one, BTW).

Jon Bell / Dept. of Physics & C.S. / Presbyterian College / Clinton SC, USA

Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: mccomt@aix.rpi.edu (Todd Michel McComb)
Subject: Re: Mahler 7
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy, NY
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 18:45:01 GMT

In article <1993Jan26.191300.20928@kadsma.kodak.com> Don Pajerek writes:
>I would think "because it's analog". Has anyone yet heard a digital
>recording with any natural-sounding ambience?

A little personal experience on this issue....

As someone mentioned, I think this is a matter of playback equipment --
specifically CD player.  I have two CD players: an old Yamaha and a
relatively new Rotel.  The difference between the two is enormous.  The
Rotel has a sound-stage and presence as good as any analog set-up I've
heard; it's like night and day.  I don't pay much attention to electronics,
but I believe this is due to a lack of redundancy in processing; one pays
for this sound projection with an order of magnitude more tracking errors.
To me, it's well worth it -- I used to hate that boxed-up digital sound.
My friends at Mom's Stereo finally convinced me to buy the new CD player,
saying that it sounds like an LP and that is makes all the difference in
the world; I was skeptical, but they were right.

There are some really good digital recordings, though the analog ones (the
new ones in particular) are usually still better.  It seems the new technology
gives engineers incentive to play games with the sound (sometimes).  Telarc
is a major culprit: that hacked-up sound stage is a disgrace, and all for a
"flat" sound which has no redeeming benefits other than uniform loudness.

All in my opinion of course... it seems some people like recordings for
flashy tricks more than honest sound.

T. M. McComb
From: danielh@sequent.com (Daniel Hobbs)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Bach's Sonata & Partita Vln Solo: Recording recommendations
Date: 26 Jan 93 19:35:25 GMT
Article-I.D.: sequent.1993Jan26.193525.26479
Organization: Sequent Computer Systems Inc.

In article <C19BD8.7KB@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk> jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin) writes:
>Did Ruggiero Ricci ever record a set of these?  I once heard him playing
>the E Major Partita live: about the most spinecrawlingly astonishing violin
>playing I've ever heard.  Could he do as well in the studio?
>

Intersting you should ask....

There's a super-bargain label called MCA, and they have a "Double Decker"
series that includes a 2 CD set of Ricci.  It goes for about $10 at 
Tower (if you can find it there...).  I haven't seen this in catalogs,
so it may be available only sporadically.

Dan Hobbs
danielh@sequent.com
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: mccomt@aix.rpi.edu (Todd Michel McComb)
Subject: Re: Brumel review
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy, NY
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 21:48:40 GMT

In article <21JAN199309503730@eccles.caltech.edu> I. Neill Reid writes:
>Two points - first, the cantus firmus comes from the Easter antiphon
>`Et ecce terrae motus'

Thanks for this clarification.

>second, a question for Todd McComb - in the original review, he spoke
>of the parts being divided unequally (3:1:5:3, from memory). The 
>notes to the Huelgas performance, however, specifically cite 4 sections
>of 3 voice: 3 treble, 3 high tenor (not countertenor/alto), 3 `normal'
>tenor and 3 bass, with at least one of the high tenor parts ranging
>down to low A and the six middle parts contributing most of the
>polyphonic texture. What was the source of the unequal scheme? 
>(presumably that groups 2 high-tenors with the other tenors).

This is what Peter Phillips says (3:1:5:3), and goes on to cite a huge range
in the countertenor with no mention of 'high tenor' (and I can't say I
appreciate this high/low distinction; what is it supposed to mean?).  I
believe early music theory texts also give 3:1:5:3, but my memory is hazy now
that you have contested the point -- I have not seen the score.

Perhaps my ignorance is showing, but it seems that the Huelgas is reacting to
the actual written ranges of the lines which were probably notated as tenor
lines.  Apparently my citation of this as a fault in the performance was
somewhat misguided; it is really the high sruti (if I may use an appropriate
term, which I am unsure of how to translate) of these lines on the Tallis
Scholars recording which bugs me: a feature of their style rather than of the
naming of the voices.

Part of the reason I mentioned this discrepancy is that it seemed odd to me,
and I did not really understand it.  Perhaps someone with definitive
information will post it.

>One really striking features of the Huelgas recording (well, I think it's
>more obvious here than in what I heard of the Tallis Scolars) is the way that
>simple (4-6 note) motifs are passed back and forth amongst the parts - 
>particularly  in the Credo, which at various points sets up what can only be
>described as standing waves of sound.

Yes, I can fully imagine this with a better blend.  It is a creative idea.

T. M. McComb
From: inr@eccles.caltech.edu (I. Neill Reid)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: re: Brumel review
Date: 21 Jan 1993 09:50 PST
Organization: California Institute of Technology
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: eccles.caltech.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    

 Two points - first, the cantus firmus comes from the Easter antiphon
 `Et ecce terrae motus'
 second, a question for Todd McCromb - in the original review, he spoke
 of the parts being divided unequally (3:1:5:3, from memory). The 
 notes to the Huelgas performance, however, specifically cite 4 sections
 of 3 voice: 3 treble, 3 high tenor (not countertenor/alto), 3 `normal'
 tenor and 3 bass, with at least one of the high tenor parts ranging
 down to low A and the six middle parts contributing most of the
 polyphonic texture. What was the source of the unequal scheme? 
 (presumably that groups 2 high-tenors with the other tenors).

 One really striking features of the Huelgas recording (well, I think it's
 more obvious here than in what I heard of the Tallis Scolars) is the way that
 simple (4-6 note) motifs are passed back and forth amongst the parts - 
 particularly  in the Credo, which at various points sets up what can only be
 described as standing waves of sound.

  Neill Reid - inr@eccles.caltech.edu
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical