From: bxm50@pars.amdahl.com (Ben Mahjoor)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.iranian
Subject: Re: Women's position and Pesar Amoo
Date: 16 Dec 92 05:45:42 GMT
Organization: Amdahl Corp.

> 
> Behnam salam, Most of the sources you mentioned are biased and have a
> record of spreadind romours except N.Y. Times and W Post for part of
> their econamic reports. If you've got a report from these 2 that could
> support your original post( as you've described the situation ) It would
> be noticable otherwise as I told your post is just a romour. If Keyhan
> Havaii also suppot your post it should be regraded because from politica
> l point of view it has no reason to spread such a romour. So give me the
> date of the issue of this weekly that supports you.
> 
> 2) I'm not comapring orange with apple. You claimed that debt is a world
> record and I gave you an example that it's not. So the expression of the
> "World Record" is not a right one for that idea. For the rest of discuss
> ion in Economics; well it's out of the scope of our chat so let's limit
> the boarders to get to somewhere. It's to be said that I agree with some
> parts of your ideas and disagree with some.
> 
> 3) It's not fair that we blame IRI goverment for some yong people misery
> in Turkey and Pakistan. So many of Iranaian youths are in Iran, they go
> to university and work in plants and during the war they defended their
> homeland's soil and everybody has to praise them because it was Iraq
> that attacked Iran and captured 18000 Km sq. and it was these people who
> drive the agressor's out. If it wasn't these youths our land would be
> under Iraqi's boots, it's that simple. So if some people went out of the
> country in that time and were looking for paradise in Turkey and Pakista
> n and instead they found hell it's their own fault. Some people ressiste
> d, they gave their lives and got the honour and pride. Some other that
> couldn't manage their life should blame themselves. Life is not always
> easy; you've got to have the guts to face the chalenge otherwise it's
> probable to get misery.  Pessar Amoo
> P.S. If you'd like to send the massage in a reply manner and not post it
> for the public I'm fine with that. I'm fine with the other side as well.
> 
> - Pesar Amoo
> 

Salam bar Pesar Amoo:
Here are some thoughts on your recent postings. All are IMHO.

1). One of the most efficient way to kill a discussion is to simply say 
that "your sources are biased". One can go beyond that and apply the same
logic to all sources including variety of history books. For example, 
I know that "Radio Seday Iran" is not available in Canada. Then how can you 
be sure, without having heard a single discussion in this radio, that it
"..is biased" and worst yet " have a record of spreading rumors" ?. It would be 
great if you could, at least, shed some lights on the "records" of these
Iranian publications as far as "spreading rumors" is concerned.
Other than that, we are at a deadend on this matter. But if you think
"sighe" in Iran is nothing but a rumor, then I will provide you with 
one of IRI's official stands on women's rights:

	"The God given duty of women is to be slave [ kaniz ] of men"
	[ Ayatollah Moosavi Ardebili, Friday praying (namAz Jome), 
	  Shahrivar 1363 ]

Someone, through a private mail, accused me of "disrespect to Islam". I can't
think of any other reason except my attacking of "sighe". I must say that 
"sighe" has as much to do with Islam as Khomeini's few brain cells had to 
do with intelligence:

       "This subject does not belong to yesterday and today. These damned 
  	Americans have been exploiting Iran for the last 2000 years !".
	[ Khomeni in a visit to "Imam Students" (dAneshjooyAne khate Imam)
          in Tehran, 19 Aban 1358, printed in EtelA'at 20 Aban, 1358]

2). I am afraid to say that you were comparing apples and oranges.
Now, I did not say that 15 billion debt by Iran is a world record becasue
of its amount. I said that acquiring this amount in 14 years is a 
world record. Here is the exact quote from my article which will clarify
this point:

   " ... because of 15 billion dollar debt that Iran has acquired in just 14 
         years (a record time in the world)"
                        
Note that I stated "a record TIME" but not "a record AMOUNT".

3). You ask me to limit our discussions but then you bring in two completly
different topics. I don't mind at all, but I think it is a bit childish to
to brush off the migration of 4 million Iranians abroad, as refugees and
exiles, as simply their own choices. If you think so, then that's fine
with me. Now, a few words about Iran/Iraq war. You seem to think of IRI 
here being completly innocent. It is true that Iraq started the attack. Iraq's
hostility to Iran and anything Iranian is not new to us. The only reason this
war did not start earlier was because the strength and superbly armed and 
disciplined Iranian Navy, Army and Air Force. We had many border conflicts 
with Iraq but at no time Iraq even dreamed of a full scale war with Iran.
Any government in the world is responsible to recognize its foes and 
possible threats to its soil and its citizens. Now let us take a look and
see how are intelligent IRI government dealt with having such a historical
enemy as one of its neighbors:


       "In this meeting, Admiral Madani told the embassy officer:
	'Iran's army need not be big. 10,000 personnels in the Navy,
	 15,000 personnels in the Air Force, 100,0000 personnels in
	 in the ground forces is enough.'. He emphasized that Iran
	 is in no eminent danger from its muslim neighboring countries.
	 and then, with a questionable tone, said: 'Then, why we need
	 all these modern and expensive equipment ?'. Furthermore he 
	 said: 'We not only will halt the expansion of the Navy, but
	 will decrease it as well, since we are no longer the 'gendarm'
	 of the region'.".

	 [asnAde lAneye jAsoosi, letter #36 from US Military Attache
	  in Tehran to Washington, Vol: 27th, 19 Aban 1358].

This is the extend of knowledge of IRI's Defense Minister of the time
as far as Iran's neighbors are concerend. He precisely did what he said.
Now let us see how they dealt with experienced Army officers and personnels:

         "The constant reminder [ sefAreshe hamishegi ] of Admiral
	  Madani and General Ghare_bAghi and Colonel [Sarhang] Tavakoli
	  to Revolutionary Council [ShorAye EnghelAb] was to kill
	  as many Army officers as you can. If you do not kill them,
	  you will be killed by them in the future"

	  [Hashemi Rafsanjani, in Friday Prayers, 7 Shahrivar 1358
	   from EtelA'At Newspaper, 8 Shahrivar 1358].

And our dear Mojahedin, when they were Khomeini's dear children, 
kept on insisting that:

	 "The most urgent work we have to do is to destroy [ EnhelAl ]
	  the armed forces. The first step of a Revolutionary change,
	  in our opinion, must start with the Army. Otherwise do not  
	  speak of the Revolution, specially an Islamic Revolution". 
	
	  [ Speech of Masood Rajavi, Tehran, 5 Esfand 1357 ].

This is how they prepared Iran in case of an attack by one of her
neighbors, specially her bitter enemy Iraq. Reduction of Iran's military
and execution of "as many officers as you can find" by Iran's own
Defense Minister !! Now let us take a look at Iran's "friendly and 
muslim" neighbors at that time:

         "Turkey: Army:500,000, Air Force: 65,000, Navy: 46,000, Res: 125,000
	  Iraq:   Army:600,000, Air Force: 45,000, Navy: 45,000, Res: 650,000
	  Pakistan: Army: 450,000, AF: 17,600, Res: 109,000
	  Afghanistan: Army: 40,000, AF: 6,000, Res: 30,000
	  Syria (with 1/4 population of Iran): Army: 240,000, AF: 70,000,
	         Navy: 2500, Res: 38,800.
	  Jordan (with 1/13 population of Iran): Army: 68,000, AF: 8,000
	 	 Res: 11,000
	  Saudi Arabia (with 1/4 population of Iran): Army 68,000,
	 		AF: 8,000, Res: 110,000

	  [List prepared by: International Institute for Strategics Studies
	   of London. Printed in 1986 QUID Publication, printed in Paris
	   pp: 1179-1183].

Now, with neighbors who are armed up to their teeth, which foresight into
the future was correct:  

	  "In midst of a pack of wolves, you cannot afford to be a sheep.
	   You must be a lion.".

	  [ Shah, in an interview with Le Monde, when asked why 
	    Iran insists on a strong military, Jan 1973 ]

	 
or the rubbish of IRI's defense minister about "good muslim neighbors" ?

The position of IRI regarding the Iran's military was not just stupid but
the worst criminal act of this government. The naive act of reduction
in the personnel, execution of thousands of unreplaceable Generals and 
experienced officers, was considered as an "invitation" to the worst 
wolfe among the pack to attack. Iraq, as we all witnessed, never missed
this golden opportunity. The Iran/Iraq war is considered "The most
savage slaughter of children in the recorded history of mankind" by
Unesco. 

                             - Behnam

	khandi to be man kinjA ze che geryAn ast
	    khandand bar an dide kinjA nashavad geryAn