From: ghg@en.ecn.purdue.edu (George Goble)
Subject: Re: Concern For Ozone Depletion Clear, Knowledge of CFCs Mostly
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 92 20:22:48 GMT

In article <1736@airgun.wg.waii.com> miller@hmsp04.wg3.waii.com (Griff Miller X7114) writes:
>In article <1992Dec28.191859.15570@en.ecn.purdue.edu> ghg@en.ecn.purdue.edu (George Goble) writes:
>
>>Current "ozone safe" (but high
>>global warming) R-134a A/C owners, are reportedly being charged
>
>Is R-134a what some of the new Ford Taurus's have in them?
>--
>Griff Miller > miller@monarch.wg3.waii.com < use this for email.
>

Yep, it is R-134a, or HFC-134a or tetrafluoroethane.  Just the ones
shipping to Texas I think (this was last summer).  The Lafayette
Indiana Ford dealer, wants $1000 for a 30lb cylinder of R-134a.

They are still trying to get some -134a PAG "compressor oil" for me to
play with... for the last 6 months..  They come up with part number
"YN11" from the Tarus service manual, and order it, and a 15 lb
cylinder of R-134a shows up instead, with a price tag of $500.00 on it.
I refuse it (I wanted the PAG compressor oil, not the refrigerant), but
I noticed that the cylinder was made by Worthington in April 1992.  I 
remember something about Worthington ordering a massive recall of 
zillions of cylinders of certain date codes, because of a faulty
blow-out disc.  I write down the date codes, and check with Worthington,
sure enough this cylinder of R-134a is "hot".  Back to the Ford dealer,
and informed them and Worthington of this, a phone call to their
wharehouse, and somthing like ALL of Ford's R-134a had to get "recalled".
Too Bad.... Now if they would just get me that damn compressor oil...

What I know so far about the R-134a automotive oils is that they are PAG
(polyalkaneglycol) based.  They are EXTREMELY hydroscopic.(absorbs water). 
If a bottle is left open for 20 mins, it is ruined.  PAG oil is destroyed
by trace amounts of "chlorides", which includes Freon-12, and "sludges"
created in Freon-12 based systems.  "Flush", which is probably R-11
or R-113 (used to clean up systems in repair), also attacks the PAG
oil.  1% flush remaining in a R-134a system usually results in compressor
failure in < 1 week due to oil breakdown.  R-134a systems have no
"approved" flush I know of.. (why doesn't somebody try Isopentane?)..
PAG oils are "volatile", they leave no "tell-tale" oil slicks 
at Freon leak sites like the mineral oil does.

Now, you have a R-134a system, and you have a line/hose break and
dump the charge.  Air gets in, 20 min later your PAG oil is water
logged and ruined... now what..  The oil is volatile, so pulling
a vacuum on it will probably just boil the oil instead of getting
the water out, there is no "approved" flush (I bet isopentane would
work), so you cannot flush out the old wet oil, so just put in some
more oil, and maybe a new drier (will be overcome by wet oil), and
charge 'er back up (for $300).. and go....

Wonder how long that wet system will last..?? 2-3 months?

Wonder how long ANY  NEW (non retrofitted) R-134a A/C will last once
the local mechanics try to service it?  As John DeArmond would say,
"Can't sticker shock happen twice [on the same car]"?

I have heard several people in both the refrigerator and the Automotive
A/C industry, talk about rumors of manufacturers reducing warranties
on NEW R-134a equipment, they are scared of it.

I have also heard reports from IVY Tech in INDY, that mechanics are
getting skin burns after working on R-134a systems.  The PAFT
(Program for Alternate Fluorocarbon Toxicity testing) results were
completed on R-134a in Sept.. 5% conc causes testicle tumors in rats.
My bet is that the PAG oil is causing the skin problems.. kind of hard
to get much action on skin from refrigerant, except frostbite.
--ghg
Newsgroups: sci.environment