HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
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Date:         Mon, 17 Aug 1992 09:53:38 EDT
From:         mer <MROSE01@UKCC.UKY.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Relevance?

Dave:

              As you know, I have a strong suspicion of the Chicago Formalisms
              and have a particular antipathy for Allan Bloom, that darling of
              the Radical Right, who in an earlier incarnation was general edit
              or of Kojeve's critique of Hegel's Phenomenology of Mind, a study
              crucial to the French Poststructural regime that Bloom rails
              against.  Bloom is intellectually dishonest, through and through.

              But Hirsch is another story. Sure, the Dictionary is silly, but
              it speaks to a real concern.  When I taught those historical
              surveys of American Literature at ASU, not ten percent of my stud
              ents could give the years of either the Revolutionary War, nor
              even the War of 1812(?), the Mexican War, Spanish American or
              the Civil War, nor recall the contents of the Bill of Rights,
              nor recognize who any number of historical personages were and
              what they did: Rockefeller, Carnegie, Nation, Anthony.

              New Critical approaches to such a course is a tactic of despair,
              and trying to fill in the gaps as you teach the literary main
              events is sure to be met with sullen indifference by the vast
              majority of students. I was simply lucky two of those semesters.
              One semester I really got nailed for being so demanding, and I
              sense that that was not simply an aberration of personalities nor
              of teaching style (almost the same exact syllabus for each).

              I am convinced that the problems lie with disciplinary thinking
              period.  The compartmentalisation of knowledge destroys relevance
              because it destroys continuity, it destroys the *impulse* to make
              connections.

              My sense is that if these students were in an American History
              course, they would be better able, at that moment, to recall the
              dates and the names.  But put them in an American Literature
              course, and they just cannot *access* the information because
              of the restrictions to what they understand to be historical
              thought and literary thought.

              I'd hate to join the Great Books debate, because that is just
              one answer among many that happens to raise more questions than
              it answers.  But English as a discipline, history as a discipline
              Political Science as a discipline, have lost their usefulness
              as vehicles for disseminating basic competency to undergraduates.
              In the public schools, they are simply creating an educational
              disaster.
                                       A polemical mer
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Date:         Sun, 16 Aug 1992 22:45:02 --500
From:         "David E. Schwalm" <IACDES@ASUACAD.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Relevance?

 *** Reply to note of 08/16/92 19:30
 It's a little hard to define relevant once we throw Hirsch out as an
 intellectual fascist. We may have tossed out the bairn with the bathwater. We
 can argue, with educational formalists, that the development of certain
 intellectual skills or competencies is relevant: reading, writing, critical
 thinking, etc. etc. etc. But it is also important for students to acquire a
 range of cultural information that takes them beyond their personal experience
 and immediate context. We may argue endlessly (and productively) about what
 this cultural information shold be, but there is no doubt that students need
 it. Dictionaries of cultural literacy may be a little silly, but just about
 everything in Hirsch's is pretty useful to know. It's just that there is some
 other stuff that might be useful too. We can, I say, argue fruitfully about
 what cultural information students ought to have (the more the better), but
 it's hard to deny the importance of their acquiring a wide range of cultural
 information. Ordinarly daily discourse depends upon it, and academic discourse
 REALLY depends on it. In this forum, we have, in fact, attacked Hirsch's
 position in language that requires the kind of cultural information he's
 talking about (We've already got it). What's relevant is an educational
 experience that opens out cultural knowledge in many directions while helping
 students develop intellectual competencies that can be applied in any
 situation.

 -- David E. Schwalm, Assoc. Provost for Academic Programs
 ___Arizona State University West
 ___4701 West Thunderbird Rd.
 ___Phoenix, AZ 85069-7100___(602) 543-4500
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Date:         Wed, 12 Aug 1992 21:19:00 EST
From:         "Christopher T. Loschen" <LOSCHEN@BRANDEIS.BITNET>
Subject:      Phenomenology and _The Waves_

Wes, it seems to me that shifting perspectives or narrators moves one step
away from the central, omniscient consciousness that we might define as the
nineteenth century realist narrator, and that making those differing
perspectives interpenetrate and intersect further separates the reader from
a singular perspective (while, paradoxically, returning to a single perspec-
tive which is the addition of all the varied points of view).  I have several
problems with your reading here.  First, you say that shifting perspectives
implies the impossibility of reaching actual objects.  Not so.  While
phenomenology brackets objects (and, with less success, subjects), the
bracketing attempts precisely to avoid having to deal with the question of
the thing in itself.  Rather, the different perspectives look at the object
from different angles.  There is at least theoretically the possibility of
accumulating enough perspectives to satisfactorily name an object, certainly
enough to deal with objects on the plane of daily experience.

Second, I'm not quite clear on your reading of _Gravity's Rainbow_.  True,
the characters merge and the narration shifts constantly.  The text even
specifically chastises the reader for his/her reliance on logical causality.
That doesn't mean that there are no specific characters or that they cannot
be separated at all.  You know who Slothrop is, even if he doesn't follow
the usual protagonist's trajectory.  If by your claim that the mind who
represents is not autonymous you mean that the representations are all
connected, that's fine, but _GR_ is hardly the only occasion for that.  If
nothing else, take a look at the Taoists.

Finally, I still hold to my reading of _The Waves_.  While I agree with
your reading for the early sections of the novel (though, as I pointed out,
the prose-poems are not attached to a particular character), that is, that
it is clear whose consciousness is the source, I find that the later sections
of the book, especially the quite long final section, begin to merge the
characters into one.  The last section seems to be Bernard's, but it includes
thoughts from the other characters, and from the prose poems as well.  Who
is doing the thinking here?  I'd say that, as in _GR_, the consciousnesses
are interpenetrating one another.

I'm curious to hear your response.

Yours, Chris Loschen, Brandeis University
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Date:         Wed, 19 Aug 1992 14:19:00 EDT
From:         WWOOD@LUCY.WELLESLEY.EDU
Subject:      Re: misplaced the deed to the Idea

Dan--LOVED your ideas!  One of the great things about teaching writing is
that we do get to teach (or rather, to use your terms, learn) new material
whenever we want...

I'm happy to grant you your utopianism.  Just as long as I don't sound like
Ronald Reagan.

Wini Wood
wwood@lucy.wellesley.edu
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Date:         Wed, 12 Aug 1992 18:01:00 EST
From:         ENGMYLES@UBVMS.BITNET
Subject:      Re: 1992 World Factbook

Michael Hart:  I have not been able to retrieve the 1991/2 World Factbook;
could you please give me, an innocent novice at this retrieval game, all
the instructions I need to get at it?  A friend, older, wiser, more
experienced, has also been unable to retrieve it.
Or if anyone else can help, I'd be grateful.
I tried sending a message to HART@UVMD.CSO.UIUC.EDU and the postmaster
refused to send it.
Simple things are sometimes so complicated.  Like Blake.
Myles Slatin
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Date:         Thu, 20 Aug 1992 19:26:00 EDT
From:         "Thomas Reber @ English Department" <REBER@CANISIUS.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Social Interaction in Computer Classrooms

Russ,

I like the bandwidth metaphor.  It's helpful.

Tom Reber      Reber@Canisius
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Date:         Tue, 18 Aug 1992 11:28:29 EDT
From:         rselfe@MTU.EDU
Subject:      typing

Typing class, wow.
It was a valuable class even though I was one of the worst in the class and
was told "I'll give you a C if you don't take Typing 2!
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Date:         Sat, 22 Aug 1992 17:13:00 CDT
From:         Fred Kemp <YKFOK@TTACS.BITNET>
Subject:      collaborative investigation

I like Russell's term "collaborative investigation."  I may steal
it.  Louie, we at Texas Tech work in intensively networked
classrooms toward an almost total writing-immersion instruction.  I
say "almost" because instructors are forever getting cold feet
(quite understandably) and feel like they much "teach SOMETHING"
before the semester concludes.  Out comes the overheads, the
lecture notes, the page assignments in handbooks.  We have a
serious effort here -- some 27 sections taught full-time in the
computer-based classroom last spring -- and we take a lot of risk
and suffer considerable existential doubt.  I love it.  Fred
Kemp, TTU
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Date:         Thu, 20 Aug 1992 19:06:00 EDT
From:         "Thomas Reber @ English Department" <REBER@CANISIUS.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: favorite/unfavorite fonts

Nancy,

Your question about the uses of fonts is a good one.  No, I don't think that
Helvetica is bad for all uses, even if it is not one of my favorites (I like
the fonts with serifs).  But when I see a substantial resume done entirely
in Helvetica, it seems to me that my Bus. Comm. student has probably
"defaulted" to the font that was already being displayed on his Mac and
is not fully aware of the typographic choices available to him.  Either
Times or Palatino (or Bookman or etc.) seems both more readable and more
elegant than all of that Helvetica . . . even if college placement offices
often give out sample resumes printed in the latter.

Tom Reber       Reber@Canisius
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Date:         Wed, 19 Aug 1992 07:04:00 EDT
From:         "Composition Digest (Robert Royar,
              Moderator)" <R0MILL01@ULKYVX.BITNET>
Subject:      (Fwd: *C&CD*) writing immersion (3)

Date: Tue, 18 Aug 92 11:03:34 ADT
From: HUNT000 <HUNT@UNB.CA>
Message-id: <ID3136.D920818.T110335.HUNT@UNB.CA>
Subject: writing immersion (3)
Reply-to: Computers & Composition Digest (R. Royar) <R0MILL01@ULKYVX.BITNET>

Robert Royar --
     I'd be interested in knowing more about your computer-based
distance ed courses; if you have a draft of the article I'd be
happy to see it & engage in dialogue.  I'm trying to find ways to
use writing for the whole conduct of classes here, on the grounds
that if you learn to use writing to get immediate, practical stuff
done, and to argue about complex ideas, the more formal, extended,
or permanent kinds of writing will follow.  I don't know of many
examples of this sort of thing, and I need as many as I can get to
convince some of my colleagues I'm not just an isolated loony.
                                    -- Russ
                                _~|__
Russell A. Hunt            _~|__)_ __)~|__       BITNET: hunt@unb
Learning Development       )_ __)_|_)__ __) INTERNET: hunt@unb.ca
St. Thomas University        |  )____) |      FAX: (506) 450-9615
Fredericton, New Brunswick___|____|____|____/    PHONE: (506)-
E3B 5G3   CANADA          \                /             452-0531
                       ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

------------------------------
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Date:         Sun, 16 Aug 1992 08:53:18 HST
From:         James Shimabukuro <JAMESS@UHUNIX.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: no duking

I just want to applaud David E. Schwalm's comment re open admissions and the
need for fundamental curriculum changes to accommodate the nontraditional
student.  I don't think we've even begun to scratch the surface in this area.
 The issues underlying this subject are complex and sensitive, but they ought
to be addressed.

Jim
jamess@uhunix.uhcc.hawaii.edu
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Date:         Sat, 22 Aug 1992 18:44:03 -0500
From:         ENGMYLES@UBVMS.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Kill Clarissa

Hell, Fred, haven't you seen Clarissa on MBU?  It's an epistolary medium
except it ain't private.
Myles
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Date:         Thu, 13 Aug 1992 21:21:00 CDT
From:         Fred Kemp <YKFOK@TTACS.BITNET>
Subject:      no duking

Ah, Myles, anytime I even imply duking it out with you, you
simply and wisely pull the rug out from under me.  Yes, yes, yes.
You're right, you're right.  But it's getting to be a gritty
world, full of (from the usual point of view) strange college
students.  They're not willing to grant me my ethos.  Sometimes I
wonder if they're willing to grant me my wallet.  David Schwalm
sees a quiet majesty in U. of Chicago, and I know what he means
(I'm basically a Chicago boy, from Evanston), but what he says
strikes me of quiet yearning for the good old days when
college was for college people and the rest just naturally stayed
away.  Now (sigh), it's everybody at the door, all sorts of folk,
with all sorts of selfish agendas (you know, they just don't be
quiet when I tell them to), and what's a body to do?  Simple
wisdom doesn't have the potency it once had.  Now the students want
to know what's in it for them, and we gulp and try to explain the
policy of knowledge for knowledge's sake.  And I believe in that
policy.  But I, and we, sound false using that policy as a fall
back to defend our quiet and economically protected careers.

Fred Kemp, TTU (last message tonight, honest)
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Date:         Tue, 18 Aug 1992 16:25:07 CDT
From:         Eric Crump <C509379@MIZZOU1.BITNET>
Subject:      bits and shreds of End of Book letters

A few tantalizing tidbits yanked mercilessly from their contexts:
excerpts from the letters to the NYTBR about Coover's End of the
Book piece. And then you'll all want to talk about it tonight on
IRC, right?

"It should not surprise us that Mr. Coover's Brown University students,
who grew up watching an average of six hours of television a day, found
his 'Hypertext Hotel' a natural medium."

"...when it comes to reading, the computer's physical size and shape
make it a poor replacement for books."

"...while it may be fun to collaborate on a piece of fiction wherein
the characters and story line are ambiguous and constantly subject
to change, I wonder how many readers will find this form to be
a replacement for a story."

"I already know where my own narratives have led me; I enter a novel
to discover where other people's narratives lead them. Besides, if
I want that sense of random accumulation leading to a complex vision
mediated partly by the writer and partly by me, I can reach for a
book of poems and move through them any way I wish."

"Rober coover and all others who predict hypertext's eventual outdoing
of linear forms of written communication should be loaded onto a rocket
and shot to the moon with limited supplies of oxygen and tang."

"Your hypotext on hypertext
writ by Robert Coover
is hyperbole in hypolex,
though Coover's sure a groover.
What gurus of the new can't see
is how new fads betray us,
for when you hustle entropy
your progeny is chaos."


Fun, huh?



--Eric
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Date:         Wed, 12 Aug 1992 19:42:57 CDT
From:         Bob Boston <S2.RSB@ISUMVS.IASTATE.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Need resources

John, it sounds like you have a sound plan already and may not need a lot of
additional info.  One question: You say, "I am using a software package called
PCBoard which will run on a multi-user host computer dedicated to this pilot
project."  Does "multi-user" mean that several students can use the BBS at the
same time?  If not, you may need to find a way to limit individual access time
so that all students are able to participate each week. If students find that
the BBS is "always busy" they will get frustrated quickly, particularly since
a large part of their course grade depends on their participation.

Bob Boston
Writing Labs Director
Iowa State University
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Date:         Wed, 19 Aug 1992 14:13:07 -0500
From:         ENGMYLES@UBVMS.BITNET
Subject:      Re: misplaced the deed to the Idea

Donna:  I guess I can't say "this course will".  I'll have to say, "If you
let it, or if you make it, or if you cooperate, you will find that the
experience of the course may......."  Though I suppose a semester of
stubborn refusal might produce changes too.  In me and in whoever's sitting.
By design?
Myles
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Date:         Thu, 20 Aug 1992 10:39:27 EDT
From:         mail <MROSE01@UKCC.UKY.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Social Interaction in Computer Classrooms
              20 Aug 1992 09:20:23 EST from <jporter@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>

Jim:
          Sounds good to me, although noise, like entropy (from which it is
derived) can be the initial condition for information/order that self-organi-
zes spontaneously, so as a concept it still may be useful as long as the
precise understanding of the terms genealogy remains foregrounded.
You know me--trope theory....

An interesting subject: can you recommend some recent studies?

                                                                 mer
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Date:         Mon, 17 Aug 1992 06:48:00 EDT
From:         "Composition Digest (Robert Royar,
              Moderator)" <R0MILL01@ULKYVX.BITNET>
Subject:      (Fwd: *C&CD*) What we're allowed to know (5)

Date:         Mon, 17 Aug 1992 06:16:14 EDT
From:         IN%"R0MILL01@ULKYVX.LOUISVILLE.EDU" Robert Royar (C&CD Moderator)
Message-Id:   <1992Aug17.061614.1.Grendel.Lair@Cratylus>
Subject:      What we're allowed to know (5)
Reply-to:     IN%"R0MILL01@ULKYVX.LOUISVILLE.EDU"  Robert Royar
Organization: Cratylus Educational Software

On Sun, 16 Aug 1992 16:01:53 CDT Eric Crump <C509379@MIZZOU1.BITNET> said
>I could have spent
>the time and money studying more history, philosophy,
>anthropology and physics, which I'm also interested in,
>but that, presumably, wouldn't have been as good for me,
>and would have created all sorts of bureaucratic burping
>and heartburn.

How about the rest of you.  What areas other than "dead white-male poets"
would you like to have studied?  What stood in your way, or were you able to
pursue those esoteric fields?  What did you learn from other departments that
was fantastic and changed your life?  Did your school (grad/undergrad)
encourage a broad education, or did you have to get a BS in "snorting
shakespeare"?

I bounced around a bit before settling down in English, got some organic
chemistry, some calculus, a lot of history, philosophy, and psychology. Most
of what I could take was possible because the system was loosely
defined/designed. I did real well on the general part of the GED and real
badly on the English Lit portion.  So the bouncing around (the fact I never
had to read much of the Canon) certainly didn't help me there.  But I was able
to figure out "how many golf balls were in the executive's golfbag if she
played golf alternating Tuesdays for three years except for the months with an
'r' in them and pocketed one golf ball more than the last time each time she
played."

 --Robert Royar (r0mill01@ulkyvx.bitnet) New York Institute of Technology

------------------------------
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Date:         Sat, 22 Aug 1992 16:20:00 CDT
From:         Fred Kemp <YKFOK@TTACS.BITNET>
Subject:      changing student body

I'm about a hundred messages down so I will probably be
addressing a problem or concern others have passed beyond.  But
in response to Rob's question about the nature of the student
body, ours at Texas Tech is much more traditional than I found
at UT or East Texas State University.  Most of our kids are
exactly that, "kids," 19-21 years old, white, polite,
vocationally oriented (the idea of learning for learning's sake
tends to get snickers).  We are undergoing a process of
increasing "standards" which has caused a decline in freshmen
here and stimulated a boom at South Plains Community College
downtown.  As Bill Wresch remarked, my idea of a "different from
traditional" kind of student may be undergoing stress as
legislators come under the fiscal gun and can no long justify the
vast and not-well-defined liberal arts training that David
Schwalm describes.  As Clinton has said, 45% of high school
graduates never try to go to college, and 70% of high school
graduates never graduate from a four-year institution.  Maybe,
again as he said, we should redefine a vocational track for such
students so that if they don't move eagerly into a liberal arts
program they will not be cut adrift from society's obligation to
provide opportunities for training.  Such so-called "tracking"
was criticized in the past for letting bureaucrats sort of pick
and choose who gets to be upper and who lower class, but I agree
with David that it just doesn't seem intelligent to assume
everybody should or wants to undergo a liberal arts education.
Besides, a liberal arts background certainly doesn't justify any
claim for superiority in our current society.
Fred Kemp, Texas Tech
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