From: sbuckley@fraser.sfu.ca (Stephen Buckley)
Subject: Re: The problem of evil (God ain't what you think!)
Organization: Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 07:46:07 GMT

hartigan@ac.dal.ca writes:

>In article <sbuckley.714789988@sfu.ca>, sbuckley@fraser.sfu.ca (Stephen Buckley) writes:
>> hartigan@ac.dal.ca writes:
>> 
>>>Because God did NOT do that (apparently), he MUST want evil to exist.
>>>He must WANT people to sin, and fail, and be separate from Him. 
>>>Because that is the kind of universe he created. And omnipotent beings
>>>ALWAYS get what they want. 
>> 
>>   this only works if you presume that people did not choose to sin
>> out of free will, that god somehow causes us to sin all the time.
>> 

>No - God created the kind of beings who WOULD choose to sin. 
>Being omniscient, he presumably knew that some of the beings he was creating
>would choose evil. He created them anyway - thus bringing sin into the world.

>More importantly - the fact that he created them anyway shows that he 
>WANTED people in existence who would sin and not repent.
>If he hadn't wanted them, he wouldn't have created them. 

  i think you're being unfair to the notion of free will.  i'll grant
that he could know we'd choose sin, but with his offer of salvation,
to be taken only through choosing it, we get to use our free will again
to fix the error, thus there are two directions we can go in free
will.  but there is no reason for you to say he wants some of to not
repent; for you to be correct in this, some would not be able to
choose salvation after being presented with it.  

>He knew beforehand (the wily old fellow) which of his possible children
>would come back to him and which ones wouldn't.  But he created the ones
>who were going to damn themselves anyway, even though he knew full well that 
>this was what they were going to do. Nice, eh? 

>I notice that you didn't respond to the analogy I set up to illustrate
>this point. Is that because it was too facile to even bother with? 

>The fact is: God created a universe in which evil exists (i.e. people would
>turn away from him, as this is the definition of evil.)  He created people
>who HE KNEW would turn away from him and therefore be liable to damnation.
>If he is really omnipotent, he didn't have to do this. But he did. So he
>must WANT a certain number of people to be separate from him for all eternity.
>Hard luck if you happen to be one of 'em. 

>A possibility: there is a problem with Christian theology?  This is not the 
>same as saying that Christianity is false.

>Sean Hartigan 
>hartigan@ac.dal.ca

and this whole debate hinges on predestination, something you can read
dozens of books on written by christians over the last few hundred years.
in all those books, they cover such metaphysical speculation that you're
engaging in here.  the results of that debate have actually spawned
different christian denominations, and the subtleties of the arguments
are way to complex for me to deal with on the net.  there are certain
rules you must follow once you accept premises like free will, 
god's omniscience, etc. that mean you must be consistent.  something
which is hard to do electronically.  predestination is a topic big enough
for me to bow out of because i'm just not properly informed on the 
rules of its debate.  all i can suggest is you look it up.
Xref: sparky talk.religion.misc:15218 sci.skeptic:15485