HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: timi@chloroplast.Berkeley.EDU ( Tim Ikeda)
Newsgroups: k12.ed.science
Subject: Re: Using animals for tests
Date: 30 Dec 1992 03:09:55 GMT
Organization: Plant Biology Dept., UC Berkeley.
NNTP-Posting-Host: chloroplast.berkeley.edu

From: Alex.Kennedy@p0.f45.n342.z1.fidonet.org (Alex Kennedy)
>Re: your stance on the testing of animals:
>    Although it is quite true that animals ARE nescessary to test
>compound that may be potentially dangerous to humans, it is also true
>that sophisticated computers and lab equipment have the potential to
>simulate these tests, if only on simpler animals.  A system which
>preforms compound tests on frogs, I believe, already exists.

In vitro results should ultimately be confirmed by in vivo testing.
The accurate computer simulation of the chemical reactions which go
on inside living organisms is at best a distant dream. Among the problems
computer modelers have are: 
   1) The sheer number of reactions involved (A computational limitation).
   2) The <mostly> unknown relationships between different tissues.
        (Different tissues can catalyze different reactions. Except in
        a few, highly-investigated cases, very little is known about
        how the different organs or tissues may effect the metabolism
        of a compound with respect to the *whole* organism.)
   3) Enormous gaps in our understanding of regulation and feedback
        at multiple levels including; gene expression, control of 
        enzyme activity, general metabolism, cell transport, 
        cell-cell communication and least understood, regulation at
        the organismal level. We're also very limited in our
        understanding of response to environmental stimuli.  
   4) The vast unknown. One missing enzyme or parameter could invalidate
        the derived conclusions.
Overall, we cannot accurately model what we do not know and metabolism
is a very big, black box.  Animals such as frogs are not as simple
as one might think. Biologically-speaking, they have a complexity
similar to our own. I suspect that the model system you describe is
extremely limited in scope and predictive power. Bacteria, or even
viruses, which one may think are orders of magnitude less complex will
still defy computer modeling for quite some time.

>Also, we must  consider the importance of the compoud that we test- is the
>compound we are testing important enough to kill a life, whether Homo
>sapiens or any  other?  After all, we must remember that the fictional
>character "Dr.  Frankenstien" was a scientist also, who also believed
>he was advanceing the human cause.

You should note that the uses of animals in research extend beyond the
testing of potentially hazardous chemicals. Researchers are also
asking the fundamental questions about how living organisms work and
interact. This knowledge is crucial not only for our own benefit but
also for understanding how all life fits together. 

-Tim Ikeda
From: Joshua.Kramer@f540.n226.z1.fidonet.org (Joshua Kramer)
Newsgroups: k12.ed.science
Subject: pregnancy survey
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 92 16:40:00 PDT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:226/540 - The Tele-Forum Netw, Columbus OH

KC> 1.  How old are?

16... er, me?  16...

KC> 2.  What is your religious background? (optional)

Well, raised Roman Catholic (Sounds like some kind of Font) but now I
have no religion: God's up there, and He's the God o' all religions.

KC> 3.  Should classes be offered in school on sex education or should
KC>     that be left up to the parents?

Well, considering I've had sex-ed in class every year for *5* years now,
hmnf... I dunno... I think that the technical stuff should be left up to
the schools but the other stuff should be left to the parents.

KC> 4.  What is your personal view on teenage sex?

It should remain non-existient.  Hell, I'm a virgin, damn proud o' it,
it shows a lot of INTEGRITY...

KC> 5.  Do you think teenagers should be able to obtain contraceptives
KC>     easier?

NO NO NO NO.  That's like giving teens bulletproof vests and saying to
them, "Go over and play guns with your buddies..."

KC> 6.  Should a teenage girl be able to obtain an abortion without
KC>     the consent of her parents or guardian?

Depends.  If you say that, then if the father gets his daughter pregnant
and doesn't want anyone to know, he could disallow it... but in most
cases yes.

KC> 7.  Should classes be available for pregnant teens and those with
KC>     children about how to properly care for their child while in
KC>     the womb and growing up?

Actually, I think that babies of teens should be placed in a foster
home, and eventually adopted if the teen does not want him/her.

KC> 8.  Should day care centers be available at schools for teenage
KC>     mothers?

You mean regular schools?  Waste o' money.

KC> 9.  Should counseling be offered at schools for pregnant teens and
KC>     their parents to talk about the situation?

Yes.

KC>10.  Do you think that sex education classes has reduced the number
KC>     of teenage pregnancies?

In a roundabout sorta way.

KC>11.  Is teenage pregnancies higher in big cities as compared to
KC>     little cities? (population density)

Possibly, possibly not.  No real way of telling.

KC>12.  How do most people react to the pregnant teens?

Slut, etc.

KC>13.  Do the girls at your school who are pregnant stay in school or
KC>     drop out?

Seeing as I go to a Catholic school, and there's only about 1 pregnancy
per year, I'd say they stay in school.

KC>14.  Do the majority keep the baby, abort it, or give it up for
KC>     adoption?

Keep it.

KC>15.  Do the partners of the pregnant teen take responsibility in
KC>     the pregnancy?

Some yes, some no.

KC>16.  Do the majority of pregnant teens get help from their parents
KC>     or not?

Yes.

KC>17.  What is your personal view on the outrageous number of teenage
KC>     pregnancies?

I don't really know; I think it's bad...



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Internet: Joshua.Kramer@f540.n226.z1.fidonet.org
From: Aaron.Brown@p0.f14.n346.z1.fidonet.org (Aaron Brown)
Newsgroups: k12.ed.science
Subject: computer animation
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 92 09:40:33 PDT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:346/14.0 - Room 5, Bonners Ferry ID

     l am interested greatly in computer animation.  About three
years ago my family and I went on a trip to California and we
stopped by at the San Jose Science Center.  It was a real
interesting experience.  When there we stopped at one of the shops
located there and  they had on display a video titled The Mind's
Eye and we saw that it was all about computer animation.  The
program is about thirty minutes long and it is amazing to me that
technology has advanced so far to the point that it is.  I was
curious how long it takes to produce something of this quality and
the level of difficulty to produce something like this.  I do see
however a few faults.  It is better quality of art than what I have
seen before, but there is a problem in the movement of the
creatures.  Too me it seems to be to jumpy and the motion does not
seem to flow as well as it could.  Of course, it has been a few
years since we picked it up and I haven't seen anything new since
then.



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Internet: Aaron.Brown@p0.f14.n346.z1.fidonet.org
From: York.York@p0.f11.n356.z1.fidonet.org (York York)
Newsgroups: k12.ed.science
Subject: Re: EVOLUTION
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 92 17:34:08 PDT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:356/11.0 - The College, Coos Bay OR

What created God my friend?  Pure matter? ha ha! I think not.



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From: Jim.Maroon@f33.n214.z1.fidonet.org (Jim Maroon)
Newsgroups: k12.ed.science
Subject: Re: universe age
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 92 09:40:00 PDT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:214/33 - Tulare County Schoo, Visalia CA

 -=> Quoting Kurt Grosshans to All <=-

 >  > LA   Does that mean that a Universe only a few million years
 >  > LAold might
 >  > LA have only ONE planet on which there was life?  I mean at
 >  > LAsuch a
 >  > LA small 'age' there might not have been time for any other
 >  > LAlife
 >
 > The universe is estimated to be at least 10 Billion years old.  This gives
 >  sufficient time for life to evolve.  We have approximately 11 Billion stars
 in
 >  our galaxy and there are billions of galaxies.  There is a high probability
 we
 >  are

 KG> Actually, when all factors are taken into account, there is a
 KG> very low probability of life existing in the universe. (Please
 KG> read Sagans's Cosmos).

        Far be it from me to second guess Dr. Carl Sagan, but Cosmos was
 written over 12 years ago, and a lot of information has come out since then.
 It has been descovered that life on earth actually began only 500 million
 years after conditions were right for it.  Many suggest (indeed, insists)
 that this means life on this planet was inevitable, which would suggest that
 if there are any planets with similar conditions (and the likelyhood is
 extremely high that there are many), then life must be inevitable on those
 planets, as well.  Dr. Stephen Jay Gould (Panda's Thumb, Ever Since Darwin),
 who is, among other things, an evolutionary biologist (Sagan is an
 astronomer), has adopted this theory.

 KG> -!-
 KG> Kurt Grosshans
 KG> kgrossha@radford.vak12ed.edu

 KG> *


 KG> -!- QM v1.30/b
 KG>  ! Origin: Bink of an Aye - Portland, OR US - Randy Bush (1:105/42.0)



... "Scotty, beam me up another Blue Wave message."
    Blue Wave/QWK v2.10



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From: Wesley.R..Elsberry@f303.n347.z1.fidonet.org (Wesley R. Elsberry)
Newsgroups: k12.ed.science
Subject: What is a theory?
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 92 10:30:23 PDT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:347/303 - Central Neural Syst, Richland Wa

In a msg on <Dec 16 11:22>, Aaron Evans of 1:346/14 writes:

 AE> Mr. Elsberry,
 AE>      Don't be so hasty in your decision to disprove my theory!

Point of order, Aaron.  In order for me to have a shot at disproving
your "theory", you must first have a theory.  To qualify as a theory,
you must state mechanisms which are in the domain of science (natural
mechanisms only); these mechanisms must be testable; and your theory
must have predictive and explanatory power.  So far as I know, you
have not stated a theory, so I would be hard pressed to disprove it.

I can, on the other hand, point out the errors in the conjectures 
which you have forwarded.

 AE> I
 AE> don't think that you totally understand my message. 

I think I understand it better than you do.

 AE> I admit it 
 AE> was
 AE> not as clear as it should have been. To clear up certain mistakes
 AE> that I made, I would like to say (as was brought to my attention
 AE> by Lowell Herr, one of the others on this forum) that I meant the
 AE> earths movement about its own axis, !NOT! around the sun. 

And that is precisely the issue which I was addressing.

Chris Stassen's messages deflate your assertions quite nicely.

 AE> I 
 AE> would
 AE> also like to say I was not directly approaching the subject of
 AE> biological evolution, I was merely saying that for evolution to
 AE> have occured the earth would have had to exist five billion years
 AE> (or more) ago. 

Evolution occurs (that is, we observe it happening) here and now, no matter
what the results of dating may tell us about the age of the earth.  I 
recommend Douglas Futuyma's "Evolutionary Biology" as  a good introduction
to the topic of evolution.

Perhaps you meant to refer to the theory of common descent instead?


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From: David.Rahfeldt@p0.f23.n105.z1.fidonet.org (David Rahfeldt)
Newsgroups: k12.ed.science
Subject: Re: logging
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 92 22:57:15 PDT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:105/23.0 - HI TECH TOOLS / Lib, Portland OR

I think it is a little premature as a judgement to say that jimply 
because a species has been found in more than one location, that it 
is not endangered!
 
Population biology of a given species is complex and can NOT be reduced 
to such simple measures as "it is found other places".
 
The spottedowl is indeed endangered from all the data that I have 
seen.
 
Let's hope together that someday it is not so endangered and that 
logging can go back into production ...
 
However... the spotted owl is mearly the crack in the veneer of the 
more MAJOR philosophical issue of whether we are here to get what 
we want out of the environment for this generation at maximal profit 
and ease or whether we are here with a responsibility to future 
generations ... are we simply users or stewards?
 
This is a basic issue around which all other issues rotate.
 
I think we all build and use wood wastefully as it is too available 
and too cheap... we pay only the cutting costs...etc...
 
I want my grandchildren 20 or 1200 generations into the future to 
read my writings and understand the joy of the natural scenes I 
describe...for they too have access to see and feel the same nature 
we do.... that is the goal for me...
 
do you want your grandchildren to only see muddy fields of little 
trees?
 
David Rahfeldt



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From: York.York@p0.f11.n356.z1.fidonet.org (York York)
Newsgroups: k12.ed.science
Subject: Re: Evolution
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 92 23:01:58 PDT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:356/11.0 - The College, Coos Bay OR

what are you specific points of disbeleifs towards evolution???? 


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From: David.Rahfeldt@p0.f23.n105.z1.fidonet.org (David Rahfeldt)
Newsgroups: k12.ed.science
Subject: Re: bears
Date: 27 Dec 92 15:33:54 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:105/23.0 - HI TECH TOOLS / Lib, Portland OR

Are more businesses or industry moving to northern idaho?
 
or just granolla eaters? (smile)
 
David Rahfeldt
 
(ps - how many bears have been transported there from elsewhere? and 

what was the previous estimate of bear popuilation before their addition 
to the local bear population? )
 
DWR



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Internet: David.Rahfeldt@p0.f23.n105.z1.fidonet.org
From: Matt.Dinning@p0.f14.n346.z1.fidonet.org (Matt Dinning)
Newsgroups: k12.ed.science
Subject: aids
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 92 09:36:07 PDT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:346/14.0 - Room 5, Bonners Ferry ID

     The topic of AIDS, is a subject that many Americans are
concerned about.  I am writing on the topic of AIDS in the work
place.  As far as I know, there are no laws restricting AIDS
patients from working in restaurants, as dentist, doctors, or any
other job in which physical contact is necessary.  I am not trying
to be prejudice against people who have AIDS, but I believe that
precautions need to be made to prevent working people from
spreading the AIDS virus.  Innocent people have contracted this
virus from contaminated people who work.  This problem is going to
grow in the next ten years, since Aids is spreading so fast.  What
to do with all of these people is a question that must be answered. 
 
They will need to do some sort of work, since it is so expensive to
treat AIDS infected people.Is it right to prevent them from doing
certain types of work?  Is the government working to solve this
problem? I would appreciate any input on AIDS contaminated people
who work. 


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Internet: Matt.Dinning@p0.f14.n346.z1.fidonet.org
From: David.Rahfeldt@p0.f23.n105.z1.fidonet.org (David Rahfeldt)
Newsgroups: k12.ed.science
Subject: Re: Using animals for tests
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 92 23:15:36 PDT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:105/23.0 - HI TECH TOOLS / Lib, Portland OR

Horse-Pucky son...
 
It is NOT trivial or even within todays capabilities to "simulate" 
entire biological systems with a computer.
 
The tens of thousands of variables and billions of interactions on 
a biological system would make a true simulation the real of the most 
leading edge capabilities of computer science and even then would 
take a project similar to the manhattan project in scale to even make 
the attempt...
 
Since no one is dropping tens of billions of $ at biological systems 
simulation I have my doubts you are going to get your simulations 
in this decade...
 
I have 25 years of experiece in simulations of all kinds... from 
aerospace to population biology to econometrics to molecular modelling...
 
It is just not that easy...
 
Animals will be with us as experimental subjects for a long time to 
come...
 
Certain portions of research can and are being shifted to computers 
as we can do molecular modelling work there ... etc... but that is 
NOT complete bilogical systems... hell we don't even KNOW all the 
biochemstry present yet... how can we model it?
 
David Rahfeldt



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From: Darryl.Craig@f10.n3402.z1.fidonet.org (Darryl Craig)
Newsgroups: k12.ed.science
Subject: Applied Genetics
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 92 20:57:22 PDT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:3402/10 - Westwood High Schoo, Ft McMurray AB

Sara:  the problem whith your statement is that by suggesting that only nature should be involved in genetic manipulations, you forget that we, as mammals, are part of nature.  We are not somehow set appart from other organisms.  We will affect the outcome of "natural genetic manipulations" by our mere presence on this earth.  
Now this is not to suggest that we should not be careful as to how we go about our works.  There should be a defined set of rules that people adhere to.  Of course by doing that we know that this will immediately present the possibility of a black market on genetic manipulations because the big bucks will come from there.  What a challenge.
In the end we cannot go back.  Man has never backed away from a technology, and it is doubtful to believe that we will leave this one alone.  So on we go.  My mind reals.  


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From: Joshua.Kramer@f540.n226.z1.fidonet.org (Joshua Kramer)
Newsgroups: k12.ed.science
Subject: Clear-cuts
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 92 16:48:00 PDT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:226/540 - The Tele-Forum Netw, Columbus OH


SR>quite sick of all of the prejudice toward loggers.  For example,

....

SR>forests, about 3/4 of the people in just my small community would
SR>be out of work.  If anyone has an opinion on this please write.

Well, if logging continues at its current pace, then we will all be DEAD
because of lack of oxygen.  What's better: everyone dead, or some people
out of work?

--Jish


 * SLMR 2.1a * To fly, one must throw himself at the ground and miss!



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From: Joshua.Kramer@f540.n226.z1.fidonet.org (Joshua Kramer)
Newsgroups: k12.ed.science
Subject: UFO's
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 92 16:23:00 PDT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:226/540 - The Tele-Forum Netw, Columbus OH

LA> JK> Of course they exist!  The Universe is to big for us to be alone...

LA>   Does that mean that a Universe only a few million years old might
LA> have only ONE planet on which there was life?  I mean at such a
LA> small 'age' there might not have been time for any other life

Well, suppose the Universe is truly infinite in space and time...

LA>  Isn't there just as much chance that we were the FIRST and
LA> that we might be the ones that are the most advanced?

Yes, but small.

LA>    So, there really isn't any 'hard' evidence for UFO'S is
LA> there?  I mean we really don't have any pieces of crashed UFO's
LA> in any Museums do we?

No, but we probably have some in government installations...

--Josh


 * SLMR 2.1a * Why does Doogie Howser's computer have no cursor?



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Internet: Joshua.Kramer@f540.n226.z1.fidonet.org
From: Matt.Dinning@p0.f14.n346.z1.fidonet.org (Matt Dinning)
Newsgroups: k12.ed.science
Subject: logging
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 92 09:33:51 PDT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:346/14.0 - Room 5, Bonners Ferry ID

     My name is Matt Dining, and I live in a small community in the
Panhandle of Idaho.  Logging, as you well know, is a major source
of income in the Northwest. The people who live here are having a
constant battle with the spotted owl and logging.  Environmental
extremist report that this owl is an endangered species.  Their
solution to this problem is to stop logging in old growth forests. 
 
They claim that this is where spotted owls  mainly live.  Several
sales have been stopped due to this bird.  Recently, I have read
that a large population of spotted owls have been located in other
parts of the country.  I have also learned that they are not really
endangered, and that the spotted owl has been found in second
growth forests.  My family is supported by the timber industry, and
we would like to resolve this problem.  It is really unfair if
logging is being stopped for no reason.  I would appreciate any
information about the spotted owl, or any other animals that may
not be endangered. 


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From: Wesley.R..Elsberry@f303.n347.z1.fidonet.org (Wesley R. Elsberry)
Newsgroups: k12.ed.science
Subject: Quoting scientists
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 92 23:37:58 PDT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:347/303 - Central Neural Syst, Richland Wa

In a msg on <Dec 10 10:06>, Laurie Appleton of 3:640/316.1 writes:

 LA>     Your message is a little puzzling in some ways.  Have you
 LA>  heard (or learned) of the famous Prof. Stephen Jay Gould?  In
 LA>  any case he said the following;

"Since we proposed punctuated equilibria to explain trends, it is
infuriating to be quoted again and again by creationists -- whether
through design or stupidity, I do not know -- as admitting that the
fossil record includes no transitional forms.  The punctuations 
occur at the level of species; directional trends (on the staircase
model) are rife at the higher level of transitions within major groups."

From S.J. Gould, "Evolution as fact and theory", in Science And Creationism, Ed.: A. Montagu, 1984.

References for punctuated equilibrium drawn from Marty Leipzig's excellent 15,000+ entry keyworded bibliography:

Keywords: EQUILIBRIUM PUNCTUATED 


Eldridge, N., 1985, Time Frames: The Rethinking of Darwinian Evolution and the
     Theory of Punctuated Equilibria: New York, Simon and Schuster.

Eldridge, N., and Gould, S. J., 1972, Punctuated Equilibria: An Alternative to
     Phyletic Gradualism, {iin} Schopf, T. M., ed., Models in Paleobiology: San
     Francisco, Freeman, Cooper, & Co., p. 82-115; 250 pp.

---, 1972, Punctuated Equilibria: An Alternative to Phyletic Gradualism, {iin}
     Eldridge, N., ed., Time Frames: The Rethinking of Darwinian Evolution and
     the Theory of Punctuated Equilibrium (1985): New York, Simon and Schuster,
     p. 193-223.

Gould, S. J., 1984, Toward the Vindication of Punctuational Change, {iin}
     Berggren, W. A., and Van Couvering, J. A., eds., Catastrophes and Earth
     History: The New Uniformitarianism: Princeton, New Jersey, Princeton
     University Press, p. 9-34.

Gould, S. J., and Eldridge, N., 1977, Punctuated Equilibria: The Tempo and Mode
     of Evolution Reconsidered: Paleobiology, v. 3, p. 115-151.

Sonleitner, F. J., 1987, The Origin of Species by Punctuated Equilibria:
     Creation/Evolution, v. 20, p. 24-30.

Stanley, S. M., 1978, Chronospecies' longevities, the origin of genera, and the
     punctuational model of evolution: Paleobiology, v. 4, p. 26-40.


Keywords: GRADUALISM PUNCTUATED 


Malmgren, B. A., Berggren, W. A., and Lohmann, G. P., 1984, Species formation
     through punctuated gradualism in planktonic foraminifera: Science, p. 317-
     319.


[Extracted using the FAQ_BASE utilities, FAQB104.LZH, from CNS.]

Further discussion is routed to the Evolution Echo, per the wishes of the moderator here.  Meet you over there.


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