From: gpalo@digi.lonestar.org (Gerry Palo)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.libertarian,comp.org.eff.talk,alt.amateur-comp,soc.culture.usa,alt.activism
Subject: Re: [misc.activism.progressive] Clinton Office Requests Comments
Date: 5 Jan 93 20:34:50 GMT
Distribution: inet
Organization: DSC Communications Corp, Plano, TX

In article <1iab94INNsdv@armory.centerline.com> mrh@centerline.com (Mike Huben) wr
ites:

           [Don Pavlish comments deleted]

>No, we don't see.  Because we can no more see libertarian governments than
In article <1iab94INNsdv@armory.centerline.com> mrh@centerline.com (Mike Huben) wr
ites:
>In article <1ia720INNm2j@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> ag167@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Don Pa
vlish) writes:
>>>a wonderful summing up!  libertarianism as the ideology of the
>>>frustrated children of the elite.  [...DRIBBLE DELETED...] they aren't
>>>quite prepared to admit that in a libertarian society there'd be
>>>no school loans, scholarships, etc. for people like them and so
>>>they'd be preaching the religion of the mighty and asocial
>>>individual while sweeping up the shit in the rich folks' back yard.
>>
>>Actually, as a Libertarian I am quite prepared to admit that a
>>Libertarian government would -not- offer loans, scholarships, etc.
>>for college tuition. However, a Libertarian government wouldn't be
>>stealing and wasting such a huge chunk of my family's income, rendering
>>government aid necessary in the first place. Cause and effect, see?
>
>No, we don't see.  Because we can no more see libertarian governments than
>we can see heaven.  You sound just like a communist promising the withering
>away of the state, or a Christian promising heavenly rule, or a cargo-cultist
>propitiating the great silver birds.
>
It is true that Libertarians offer no solution to the problems now
being handled so badly by government that they would jettison if they
came to power.  Somehow enlightened self interest would take care of
everything and we will all be happy.

Another possibility was proposed by Rudolf Steiner in his concept of the
Threefold Social Order (Dreigliederung des sozialen Organismus).  The 
three functions of any social organism being defined as political-rights
sphere, cultural-spiritual sphere, and economic sphere must each have their
own independent existence and not attempt to perform the functions of the
others.  Each supports the others and the whole, much as, say, the heart,
liver, and nervous systems support each other and the whole body.  Anyway,
Steiner's view of the rights sphere is very much like the Libertarian
concept of government.  But that does not mean that the other two spheres
may not become organized on their own.  In the economic sphere, for example,
the ruling principle would be free associations -- of consumers, producers,
and distributors, for example.  Such organizations, free from the role of
determining and administering the laws of the rights sphere, could take on
new forms of their own in an organized way.  What those forms would be is
not prescribed, and they would vary from situation to situation.  Something
similar would take place in the spiritual/cultural sphere -- which includes
education.

Thus there are possibilities for organizations and institutions other than the
government to handle such things as scholarships, aid to the poor, health care,
etc.  It is not necessary that all economic institutions be run either on the
basis of pure market forces or state control or simply the kindness of the
individual.  Likewise the relationship between the economic and cultural
spheres, as in the case of the funding of schools.

When we look to the government for educational and other assistance we can
easily forget that it is not the government that provides this help but human
beings who desire to provide it and who institute forms, such as government,
to make it happen.  If the political state gave up these functions, that would
not make the human desire and intention to provide these things disappear, only
give rise to new forms that could accomplish these intentions more effectively
and without suppressing individual freedom.

Steiner believed that the French Revolution embodied the right idea in the
slogan, "Liberty, Equality, Fraternity", but that it turned into the reverse
of that ideal when the three principles were combined into a single monolithic
state organization.  The principle should be, he said, Liberty in matters
spiritual, equality in matters political, and brotherhood in matters economic.  
The American revolution and Constitution largely avoided the problem of France
by limiting the power of government and leaving the other activities to fend
for themselves, but in the last few decades we have evolved very much towards
the monolithic state principle.

Steiner also emphasized that the threefold social order would not be "implemented"
in some party program or by revolution, but its principles, once understood
by enough people, would eventually lead them to order their communities 
accordingly.  Thus many smaller communities interested in Steiner's ideas
(Anthroposophy), and often formed for specific practical purposes, have to some 
degree realized some of these concepts.  The larger scale realization, of course,
involves the whole of a society and has world implications as well, and
would be more difficult.

I should add that I don't fully understand all the implications of the threefold
solution, particularly in some of its details about the nature of land, labor,
and capital.  But I can certainly see the problems that arise when a unified 
state tries to manage all three spheres.  Thus, the Libertarian position at least
addresses the main part of the problem for starters.

           [stuff deleted]

>"Utopias now appear much more realizable than one used to think.  We are now
>faced with a different new worry: How to prevent their realization."
>                                                Nicolas Berdiaeff

By the way, I think Berdyaiv knew Steiner and wrote about him in one of his books.

Gerry Palo (73237.2006@compuserve.com) 
Newsgroups: alt.politics.libertarian,comp.org.eff.talk,soc.culture.usa,alt.activism