HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: psc@sei.cmu.edu (Peter Capell)
Subject: Ki and science
Organization: Software Engineering Institute
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 17:06:10 EST


Sorry to pick up on this thread so late, but I haven't been around lately.
Anyway, my two cents re:

01-Dec-92 12:58	(Todd I. Stark) Re: A western scientific look at Ki

>Physics doesn't have a concept of Ki, so it doesn't have 
>an explanation for it.  

I hope you realize how true this is.  In other words, if Physics (capital p)
doesn't have a concept in its canonical lexicon, the "thing" does not exist.
This (to me) points most of all to the limits of Physics as a discipline.
In other words, in terms of Physics, prior to this century, ultraviolet
frequencies did not exist.  

>It's a concept, not a phenomena. 

I certainly disagree.  It is a phenomen_on_, to those of us who know that.
Snotty as my last sentence sounds, it is not at all the case that I think chi
is anything known only to a special few.  chi is inherent to the human
experience, some people are more sensitive than others--mere fact.

>Psychokinesis
>however, even if demonstrated doesn't link the whole notion of Ki together,
>so the physicist can never have a complete view.

Agree wholeheartedly here (if that's important), but to me western science'
approval of "THE EXISTENCE OF CHI" is wholely irrelevent--to me its like
asking if I need proof from a scientist as to whether not I really just ate
dinner--or whether there really is an object in the sky called the sun--or
whether the lights are on...  why should I care what SCIENCE thinks about it
when I know it's the case already.  For me it is not at all a state of belief,
unless you want to play semantics and declare that my existence is a state of
belief, in which case I have already explained my state of belief with regards
to chi.
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: mcdevitt@rtsg.mot.com (Aidan McDevitt)
Subject: qi - any simple exercises?
Organization: Motorola Inc., Cellular Infrastructure Group
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 10:30:35 GMT

I've been reading the discussion on qi and science with interest.

I was wondering if there are any simple exercises by which one
could build up qi in the body to the point of being able to feel it.

If you know of any that an averagely fit person could do, please post it.

I don't practise any martial arts, but am considering taking up Tai-Chi.

Thanks

Aidan
From: CA.FER@forsythe.stanford.edu (Jennifer Gates)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: quick question
Date: 11 Dec 1992 09:53:34 -0800
Organization: Stanford University
Distribution: usa
NNTP-Posting-Host: morrow.stanford.edu

Thank you for posting that article about the Battered Husbands. I
think it is good for us to have the perspective of violence being
perpetrated by a person against another person...

Thanks again
Jennifer
From: david@elwood.NoSubdomain.NoDomain (David Johnson)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Sternum strike vs. Solar plexus
Date: 15 Dec 92 21:22:30 GMT

In article <Bz94Jz.JC0@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>, burdickd@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Dakin Burdick) writes:
|> In article <1992Dec13.190418.27172@craycos.com> sog@craycos.com (Steve Gombosi) writes:
|> >
|> >Exactly where do you strike when you do a "sternum strike"? We punch for
|> >the xyphoid process (also known as the "ensiform appendix"), at the very 
|> >bottom of the sternum. I believe this point is considerably more vulnerable 
|> >than, say, the middle of the sternum ...
|> 
|> I'd agree.  But the people I've heard talk of a "sternum strike" say
|> to strike in the middle of the sternum.  
|> 
|> >Striking higher on the sternum wouldn't be likely to break much of anything,
|> >IMHO, since the ribs would tend to act as "shock absorbers".
|> 
|> Agreed.

The way I understand it, a sternum strike is not intended to break
any bones.  It is intended to shock the heart.  When CPR was taught
in the late 1970's they said to give a thump to the sternum of
someone who just had a cardiac arrest (the mechanism is to cause a
shock which defribrillates (sp?) the heart).  It was also taught in the
class that the thump given to someone who does not have cardiac arrest
might have one.

A strike with a closed hand tends to affect near the surface of the body.
A palm strike has less of an effect near the surface but more internally.
Compare the effect of striking a heavy bag with a closed fist and
with an open palm.  A good palm to the sternum would penetrate to
the heart.  A nice focused palm strike to the sternum can be deadly.

Also in CPR class they taught that compressing the xyphoid process
can cause it to lacerate the liver resulting in some pretty nasty
internal bleeding.  This is different from a strike to the sternum
or solar plexus.

All three targets are good using an appropriate strike.  Different
fists are intended for different parts of the body.

-- 
David Johnson
XLNT Designs, Inc. (XDI)
david@xlnt.com
From: toman@bovine.uoregon.edu (J. Toman)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Discussing technique
Date: 18 Dec 1992 23:43:42 GMT
Organization: University of Oregon Network Services
NNTP-Posting-Host: bovine.uoregon.edu

In article <1992Dec18.024724.19987@psych.psy.uq.oz.au> campbell@psych.psy.uq.oz.au (Campbell Dickson) writes:
>> From: taddiken@ms.uky.edu (scott taddiken)
>> Summary: One handed kouchi gari.
>	.
>> A technique which has worked well for me in recent years is one handed
>> kouchi gari.  Kouchi, as it is affectionately called, is the throw in
>> which your right foot (RF) grabs the heel of his RF as you drop him
>> straight down onto his back.
>	.
>	.
> [ Now we get technical ]
>	.
>	.
>> How's that?
>
>A typical example of why you don't see detailed technical discussion.
>
>Virtually all the technical discussion centres around Japanese MAs
>I'm sure this is because they have a highly elaborated terminology which
>enables/encourages the initiates to talk technique, and this also seems to
>suit the American mind set - plenty of posters to this group exhibit an
>highly mechanistic view of the body and its MA applications -
>witness the physiological/anatomical jargon which they like to use.
>
>I find this depressingly reductionist, but the significant thing is that 
>for all the apparent precision, it doesn't really address a general MA
>audience - you still have to have _experience_ of what is being alluded to
>to appreciate the discussion.
>

no. J. like think. good think. think make J. move good.


;-)

>Unless it's overloaded with masses of specialised connotations, language
>is just hopeless for conveying complex movement. So at present technical
>stuff is really inappropriate for discussion on the net, however we can
>perhaps see the dawning of a Golden Age with the spreading availability
>of video animations.  Once these can be made available for ftp and form
>the basis of commentary and discussion, exchanges will be much more
>fruitful.
>
>It will be interesting to be able to judge the credentials of posters
>by seeing them in action.

Why will it be interesting ?

						J. Toman
From: mikel@Apple.COM (Mikel Evins)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Training - Sparring, workout and / or holds ?
Date: 16 Dec 92 04:45:23 GMT
Organization: Apple Computer Inc, Cupertino, CA

In article <102096@netnews.upenn.edu> vkalia@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Vandit Kalia) writes:
>
>	Incidentally, I train in Ryu Kyu Kempo Karate - I am curious what 
>the average regimen is, for exponents of other karate styles ( and also 
>other MA styles ).

My average week of training these days looks like:

6-9 hours of forms (and formal techniques)  practice
3-4 hours of sparring practice
1.5-4 hours of conditioning exercises
8-12 hours of teaching and demonstrating

Last week was about 50% heavier because I was on vacation and
I took a trip to L.A. to spend 3 days working with the head of
our system.

Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: cyeomans@ms.uky.edu (Charles Yeomans)
Subject: Re: Re: where to buy a CLUB for my car
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 15:20:03 GMT
Organization: University Of Kentucky, Dept. of Math Sciences

In article <50040223@hpcupt1.cup.hp.com> rterry@hpcupt1.cup.hp.com (Ray Terry) writes:
>>Just remember that flashlights that contain more than 3 D batteries are
>>considered a weapon by the police.  If you are carrying one or reach for
>>one while the police are present, they can and will assume you are going
>>for a weapon and respond accordingly.  
>
>They are?  As defined in the CA Penal Code?  Which section??? 
>
>Ray

Most state criminal codes have some language about possession of
a "bludgeon" or "truncheon" or "club" etc.  These statues seem to be 
a bit vague, but I would imagine that a big MagLite may be 
interpreted as a bludgeon.

Regulating MagLites has got to be one of the stupider ideas I
have heard in my lifetime.  THat is such a typical response
by politicians.  I suppose next the SUpreme COurt will be allowing
for a MagLite exception to the 4th amendment, asthey do for drugs.

Charles YEomans

Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: campbell@psych.psy.uq.oz.au (Campbell Dickson)
Subject: Discussing technique
Organization: Psychology Department, University of Queensland
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 02:47:24 GMT

> From: taddiken@ms.uky.edu (scott taddiken)
> Summary: One handed kouchi gari.
	.
	.
> Somebody has posted, saying that there isn't enough judo on this net.
> While it is true that judo and issues of judo do come up from time to
> time, I believe I understand what was meant:  There is not much
> discussion of judo technique.  IMHO, there is not much discussion of
> the techniques of _any_ art, with the possible exception do aikido
	.
	.
	.
> A technique which has worked well for me in recent years is one handed
> kouchi gari.  Kouchi, as it is affectionately called, is the throw in
> which your right foot (RF) grabs the heel of his RF as you drop him
> straight down onto his back.
	.
	.
 [ Now we get technical ]
	.
	.
> How's that?

A typical example of why you don't see detailed technical discussion.

Virtually all the technical discussion centres around Japanese MAs
I'm sure this is because they have a highly elaborated terminology which
enables/encourages the initiates to talk technique, and this also seems to
suit the American mind set - plenty of posters to this group exhibit an
highly mechanistic view of the body and its MA applications -
witness the physiological/anatomical jargon which they like to use.

I find this depressingly reductionist, but the significant thing is that 
for all the apparent precision, it doesn't really address a general MA
audience - you still have to have _experience_ of what is being alluded to
to appreciate the discussion.

Unless it's overloaded with masses of specialised connotations, language
is just hopeless for conveying complex movement. So at present technical
stuff is really inappropriate for discussion on the net, however we can
perhaps see the dawning of a Golden Age with the spreading availability
of video animations.  Once these can be made available for ftp and form
the basis of commentary and discussion, exchanges will be much more
fruitful.

It will be interesting to be able to judge the credentials of posters
by seeing them in action.
From: azw@aber.ac.uk (Andrew Michael Woodward)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Sternum strike vs. Solar plexus
Date: 17 Dec 92 16:11:21 GMT
Organization: University of Wales, Aberystwyth

In article <1gg5o0INN5fb@gap.caltech.edu> lieven@cco.caltech.edu (Lieven Pascal Leroy) writes:
>Yes, strikes directly to the sternum are pointless.  But I've never heard
>them being recommended.  The sternum is actually three separate bones,
>the bottom one of which (the xyphoid process) is a very small bone not attached
>to the ribs.  It isn't even attached to the middle bone (sternum proper) until
>later in life, except by cartilage.  _This_ is your target, and it's probably
>lower than you think.  Breaking this loose will probably puncture a lung,
>resulting in a hemo- or pneumothorax.
>
>I don't know exactly how hard it is to do, but I do know that my first aid
>classes teach us to look for this sort of thing from impacts in that area.
>
>A blow to the rib cage is a glorified shove.  The ribs are made to take it.
>But the xyphoid process is another matter.  Please keep in mind that this
>does not fall under 'friendly' ways to incapacitate someone.  It's not just
>knocking the wind out of them or making them vomit, as a blow to the solar
>plexus will probably do.  This blow can kill in an unpleasant way, or at
>least require surgical intervention to patch up torn tissue.
>
>							--Lieven

There are many weak points on the sternum/ribcage. The are at sutures betweeen
bone-bone or bone-cartilage. These can all be detached with sufficient power.
(Not as much as might be expected!)

Dont use a sternum strike except in dire straights, cos just the shock can stop
the heart even without braking a suture. (However it is equally good at 
starting a stopped one - regard it as a toggle)

Similarly strike the solar plexus straight in or downwards. DO NOT strike 
upwards for the xiphoid unless you are prepared for the legal and moral 
consequences!
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: schan@birch.srg.af.mil (Stephen Chan x4485)
Subject: Re: Finishing techniques
Organization: SRG, Arinc Research Corp., Annapolis, MD
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 92 18:00:33 GMT

In article <1992Dec13.220443.26287@cc.uow.edu.au> plumpton@wampyr.cc.uow.edu.au (David Plumpton) writes:
>My Karate Sensei has told us a couple of times that a sufficiently enraged,
>drugged or mentally handicapped person can escape from *any* form of joint
>lock or hold by simple brute force.

	How does this statement sound: "any sufficiently enraged, drugged or
mentally handicapped person can survive a _single_ Karate strike"?
	Aren't you using an unfair basis of comparison here?

	I suggest that your Sensei, while an expert at Karate, isn't
necessarily an expert in locking/pinning techniques. If you're good at what
you do, then as soon as someone squirms out of pin #1, you herd them into
pin #2, and so on, until you nail them down with one (or decide to be nasty and
break something).

> He told us a story about some extremely
>pleasant businessman who would become a total psycho after two drinks in a 
>bar, and have to be restrained. He says that he got a perfect joint lock
>on this guy immediately (and when he does a joint lock, it's pretty
>awesomely effective in my experience), but the guy managed to lift him off
>the ground "like a dry twig".

	A *very* important aspect of a properly applied lock is that it leaves
your opponent unable to apply their strength - you aren't just applying pain
to some limb, you are using a single limb to control the entire framework of
your opponent's body. If you manage to carry off, you can control your
opponent like a big rag doll.

> My Sensei must mass at least 85 kilos.
>He went on to say that the only way to deal with such a person is to choke
>them, no air no fight.

	As a matter of fact, I know a Hapkido instructor who successfully
gained control of and pinned a PCP'ed assailant for about 15 minutes, until
the police came. He claims that while the guy had lots of strength, it was very
"shallow", and *extremely* easy to manipulate him.

>The style is Kan Zen Ryu Karate, for the record.
--
	Stephen Chan
	uunet!srg!schan or uunet!srg!schan@uunet.uu.net
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: eng10001@nusunix1.nus.sg (MOEY WENG SENG)
Subject: Re: Chi Kung for use Martially
Organization: National University of Singapore
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 10:35:03 GMT

	Your sensei would be able to help you. He should know the skill
itself, or know someone who does know the skill. But ask him about the
responsibilities that come with accquiring such a skill. 
From: rterry@hpcupt1.cup.hp.com (Ray Terry)
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 19:49:12 GMT
Subject: Re: TKD forms
Organization: Hewlett Packard, Cupertino
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts

>My Tae Kwon Do club practises the Pal-Gwe forms, but I just come across
>Richard Chun's book on Tae Kwon Do, where various other set of forms are
>mentioed. The book unfortunately does not describe these and I would like to
>see them myself. The set of forms mentioned is called "Tae  Kook" in the
>aforementioned book. I have heard of the Tae Guek (sp) forms and I wonder if
>these are the same thing (especially since Chun's book uses a different
>terminology to that used by my club).

The Palgwe forms are the forms/poomse that was used by the WTF (World TKD
Federation) until the mid-70's.  At that time the WTF switched from the
Palgwe forms to the Taeguek forms (and also changed some of the terminology
so that the words used were Korean in heritage and not Chinese -- at least
that was what I was told).

Some older Korean WTF Masters never made the switch to the newer poomse and
the newer terminology.  No biggie.  Personally, I like the older Palgwe forms
better....

Ray
From: ph2sct@sdcc14.ucsd.edu (Dzu Nguyen)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Belts & history
Date: 11 Dec 92 23:47:46 GMT
Organization: University of California, San Diego


I've heard the tale about the premotions in aikido, according to my
sensei, Tohei (i think) came to america and promoted Neadau and
Doran senseis to 6th dan. Until then, there were only japanese 6th
dans. When americans became 6th dan, the title of shihan was raised
to 7th dan. In Hombu dojo, there are quite a bit of politics.
Steaven Seagal is the only american on the board of directors in
Hombu dojo and he will probably be the only american to do this as
he was taken underwing by several 10th dans and completely adopted
the Japenese way of life. Also, in aikido there will never be
anymore tenth dans after Masters like Abe sensei die because only
the founder of an art may promote his students to 10th dan.
O'Sensei's son, who is currently head of Hombu, can promote aikidoka
to 9th dan.

Dave (using Dzu's account)

Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: tac@cs.brown.edu (Ted A. Camus)
Subject: Re: martial arts info
Organization: Brown University Department of Computer Science
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 20:25:38 GMT

In article <4346@unisql.UUCP> wrat@unisql.UUCP (wharfie) writes:

>	Judo is an excellent choice as a first martial art for our
>original questioner because of this unique combination of advantages,
>because excellent judo schools are common, because the skills learned
>are applicable in everyday life, and because (despite the it's-a-sport
>crowd) I know that it works well in self defense situations.

    
  I take Aikido now, and have taken several arts previously, including 
  three years of judo (ikkyu).  I consider judo to be the equivalent
  of college, and Aikido to be grad school.  While I do not think 
  that judo is as sophisticated as or as rich as Aikido, I am very very
  thankful that I have taken it for the background it has provided,
  in much the same way that one could hardly go to grad school without
  being an undergrad first.  So while I agree with wharfie that judo
  is an excellent and safe place to start, after a year or two or three
  it might be time to start looking at another art as well --

   -- Ted --

==========================================================
  Ted Camus                          Box 1910 CS Dept 
  tac@cs.brown.edu                   Brown University
  tac@browncs.BITNET                 Providence, RI 02912
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: "elliott chapin" <elliott.chapin@canrem.com>
Subject: t'ai chi, toronto are
Reply-To: "elliott chapin" <elliott.chapin@canrem.com>
Organization: Canada Remote Systems
Distribution: rec
Date: 20 Dec 92 23:13:59 EST

Have a look at the Wu (family represented) Acad., 429A Queen St. W. -
just e. of Spadina (over the Tortilla Flats restaurant).
Walk in any Mon. - Thurs. evening for a look.

Elliott Chapin
---
  DeLuxe 1.12 #4315  elliott.chapin@canrem.com
--
Canada Remote Systems  - Toronto, Ontario
World's Largest PCBOARD System - 416-629-7000/629-7044
From: tms@cs.umd.edu (Tom Swiss (not Swift, not Suiss, Swiss!))
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Describing techniques in words - Yuk!
Date: 20 Dec 92 17:45:38 GMT
Organization: The Reality Liberation Front (pixels to the people!)

radner@cray.com (Lauren Radner) writes:
>>
>>Which foot points to 10:30?  Those of us who use a lot of sanchin
>>stance might say the RIGHT foot - just another subtlety!
>
>...John? With your heels together you might really point your *right*
>foot towards 10:30 (and, therefore, left towards 1:30)? Then your right 
>foot would be stepping on your left foot.... wouldn't it? Do you guys 
>really stand this way?

     I don't know about John, but we don't do this with our heels together;
sanchin dachi is feet about shoulder width apart, one foot slightly ahead,
with toes turned inward - i.e., right foot pointing at 10:30, left at 1:30
or thereabouts.

===============================================================================
Tom Swiss/tms@cs.umd.edu  |  "Born to die"   |   Keep your laws off my brain!
     "What's so funny 'bout peace, love and understanding?" - Nick Lowe 
                     Keep your values off my family.
      "It's not by amusing oneself that one learns."
       -- Anatole France
      "It's only by amusing oneself that one can learn."
       -- Edward Kasner and James R. Newman
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: shulick@navajo.ucs.indiana.edu (Sam Hulick)
Subject: Please list hapkido belts and stages
Originator: shulick@navajo
Reply-To: shulick@navajo.ucs.indiana.edu
Organization: Vallen Software
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 02:53:00 GMT


Could someone please post a list (in the right order, of course) of
belts in hapkido?  And please list the stages that come after black
belt.  Thanks!  And please post it.  I don't want to receive like 6 or
10 e-mail messages all saying the same thing.  Thanks.

-- 
    // Amiga 3000   ___ \ Sam Hulick: shulick@indiana.edu (NeXTmail OK!)
   // 68030 25 MHz /__/\ \ My opinions wear combat boots.  Or whatever.
\\// OS 2.04       \__\/ / "Walk!  Not bloody likely.  I am going in a
 \/                     / taxi."  --George Bernard Shaw
From: wrat@unisql.UUCP (wharfie)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Deadly weeks
Date: 19 Dec 92 03:49:54 GMT
Organization: UniSQL, Inc., Austin, Texas, USA

In article <1992Dec18.163754.15133@sei.cmu.edu> psc@sei.cmu.edu (Peter Capell) writes:

>If it were only just techniques, virtually all of us would be masters, 
>after all, in MA you learn deadly techniques within a week.

	You might get _shown_ *potentially* lethal techniques in the first
week, but you won't be able to execute them correctly in practice, never
mind against someone who has no intention of cooperating.  Really, now.
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Quick response was Quick question
From: ttrimble@eagle.wesleyan.edu
Date: 12 Dec 92 00:08:30 EST
Organization: Wesleyan University

In article <75482@apple.apple.COM>, mikel@Apple.COM (Mikel Evins) writes:
> In article <4321@unisql.UUCP> wrat@unisql.UUCP (wharfie) writes:
>>In article <1992Dec9.130136.11571@relay.nswc.navy.mil> snorthc@relay.nswc.navy.mil writes:
>>>case of a choking attack:
>>>	1 turn head to side, put chin on shoulder
>>>	2 sink, bend knees, acquire center of gravity
>>>	3 identify location of attacker
>>>	4 disabling strike, freeing move	
>>
>>	I think it would be safer to drop your chin straight down
>>to your chest.

in my school we are taught to put our index and middle fingers together (as if
pointing at something), put the point of the middle finger in that *cute*
little hollow at the center of the throat just above the sternum, and SNAP the
arm to extension - turning one shoulder towards your attacker for greater
extension (esp. if he/she has longer arms).  everyone i have ever seen this
done to not only lets go of the defenders neck, but they walk backwards making
funny little "ahack" noises for quite some time.  
(note:until you have control w/ this, only practice w/ people you don't like
very much =-). ) 
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts