HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: eric@milton.u.washington.edu (Eric Hirst)
Subject: WA area clean aid routes
Organization: University of Washington
Distribution: pnw
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 01:13:38 GMT

Fellow pnw distributionees,

Here is an annotated summary of responses I got on my query for clean aid
routes in and near Washington.  It's hardly a complete list, but should be
enough territory to develop the skills and have a lot of fun.  More aid
climbing can be found by looking in old guidebooks such as Brooks and Whitelaw,
but remember to leave the pins at home when in doubt.  I'm not making
any distinction between routes that have or have not gone free -- clean aid
is not an offensive act, just a slightly lazy one at times.  Much of this
list was written from the perspective of a mid 5.10 leader who can occasionally
scurry up a safe 5.11, so those of you who scurry up 5.12's may not see the
point of aiding some of the routes listed here.  Routes without
ratings should be considered as concepts only -- think like a pioneer.

"A" ratings usually go clean anyway, sometimes at a slightly higher grade.

INDEX:

City Park p1 C1 ***    (A tad dull, but a nice way to Slow Children when
                        Godzilla is gummed up)
Iron Horse p1 C2 ***   (Fun, and an easy way to TR Sagitarius if you're
                        feeling intimidated)
Ten Percent M.V. (original) p1 A2 ***
Stern Farmer (original) p1 A2 * (note: p2 is A3+ pins)
Narrow Arrow Overhang p1 Left A2 **
Narrow Arrow Overhang p2 C2 ***
Narrow Arrow Direct p1 C2+ **
Narrow Arrow Overhang p1 Right C3 **
Snow White p1 A3 **

Other free routes that would be good:
Even Steven (Inner Wall)
Japanese Gardens
Steel Monkey (Country far L)

Tang might be fruitful, as would some of the too-scruffy-to-free routes further
along the inner wall area.  Using aid to set up topropes can take the edge off
of many of the more difficult short free climbs that you've always been afraid
to lead.

Anybody know which of the Upper Wall aid routes now go clean?

LEAVENWORTH:
Midnight Rock may be a fun place for 5.10 leaders to TR 5.11's.  There is
more to Snow Creek Wall than Outer Space.  Hell, you could practice hook
moves on Bruce's Boulder.

WASHINGTON PASS:
Liberty Crack on Liberty Bell.  Highly recommended/crowded.  Probably a C2+.
Other aid climbs are listed in Smoot, but I don't know which ones go clean.

DARRINGTON:
The Fast Lane sounds like a nice adventure in mixed free and clean aid.
Masochists may want to pioneer lines through the massive roof 100 yards
left of the Big Tree routes.  Are eyebolts in tree roots considered clean
aid?

SMITH:
The E Face of Monkey Face (Smith) has a nice aid line 
to the top. A3, then a long o-hung bolt ladder with some missing bolts.

SQUAMISH:
Read the new book.  I don't know what is clean and what is not, but I'm
pretty sure that the Grand Wall via the Split Pillar could be a 5.10 C2
instead of a 5.11 C0.  Other less crowded examples surely abound.

Eric Hirst
eric@milton.u.washington.edu
From: David_Woodsworth@mindlink.bc.ca (David Woodsworth)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: <None>
Date: 11 Sep 92 08:27:54 GMT
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Distribution: world

> Bob Sinclair writes:
> 
>         I think spiders and other insects actually pull off those amazing
> overhanging friction moves using water trapped in the hairs on their feet.
> Now there's a concept we should consider.
> 
> Still feeling weird!

But how would water on the hands react with chalk?  :-)   Or are we talking
about using the head in jam-cracks?  :-)

Past my bed time.

David Woodsworth

--
The preceeding opinions are shareware and yours to try for 30 days.  If you
wish to continue using them after that time, please send $10.00 CDN to:

                  david_woodsworth@mindlink.bc.ca

Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: billw@ace.mentorg.com (Bill Wright)
Subject: Re: Grease
Originator: billw@ace
Date: Mon, 07 Sep 1992 21:24:14 GMT
Reply-To: billw@sjc.mentorg.com
Organization: Mentor Graphics 
Keywords: 
Followup-To: 


In article <Sep07.163541.72648@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU>, trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU (wayne trzyna) writes:

|> Yes, I don't see chalk as a problem, and it may be an asset.  Recall
|> that its use grew from precedents in gymnastics, where it is used to
|> protect the equipment among other things.  I think John Gill (gymnast
|> and boulderer extrordiaire) was the first climber to use chalk.

Sure chalk is an asset...an asset in increasing the number that you can
claim you pink point.  Don't kid yourself that this is an asset for the
rock.  Don't let your ego take your mind on a delusion like that so you
can feel good about your chalk usage.  Come on...

-- 
             Bill Wright / bill_wright@mentorg.com

                  "When in doubt, run it out!"
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: brodesky@td2cad.intel.com (Michael Brodesky)
Subject: Needles Guide book #2 is out
Organization: intel corporation
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 17:29:37 GMT



Yes the new needles guide book is out. It is called book #2 inside.
There are going to be three books in total about the South Eastern
Sierra's. The book was listed at $19.95. 

	Thats about all I can tell you. 

For those planning on trips to Thailand, there is also a new guide book
available. 


Michael

P.S surprised no one has come up with a top 10 reasons to use chalk, and
Bill wrights top ten replies to people who use chalk. 
--
Michael Brodesky Internet Mbrodesky@sc9.Intel.com
UUCP : {pur-ee,qanad,oliveb,decwrl,hplabs}!intelca!mipos3!td2cad!brodesky
Sally sold sea shells. Ned Needamyer needled his nose on the nose. 
During the week I climb left to right. On weekends I climb up and down.
From: sinclair@cc.usu.edu (Bob Sinclair)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Logan Canyon / Rifle
Date: 8 Sep 92 07:30:10 MDT
Organization: Utah State University

Has anyone been following some contention in R+I and Climbing regarding
'lil 'ol Logan Canyon Recently? Met a friend at Rifle over the w/e who said
that a couple of articles and letters seemed to be at odds and that a number
of people seemed to be getting quite upset. I dont regularly get the `rags`
do miss out on all that excitement, and my regular sources of local news
are currently out of town.

If anyone is desperately interested in current status of Low-gain or info on
Rifle CO, let me know and I'll put something together.

Bobs@biocat.ncdmf.usu.edu                         (Bob the alien)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: brodesky@td2cad.intel.com (Michael Brodesky)
Subject: Chalk Chalk Chalk Chalk 
Organization: intel corporation
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 22:10:26 GMT

	OK, I'll bite, yes the chalk makes rock look bad to some, and
to others it might look artistic. I'm not going to get into this part of
the thread. Instead I will focus on Ego's of Chalk users.

	I find it ironic that the person who posts the most climbing
adventures writes that Chalk users have big Ego's. And that a 5.12
could climb 5.11 without chalk- No new taxes seem to come to mind with
this statement. I also find it funny that Bill says Chalk does not make a
impossible route possible, but goes on to say that people can climb
harder routes with chalk. If I climb 5.11 face and I think 5.12 routes
are impossible, does this mean if I use chalk, I could climb a 5.12.

	Why do people who use chalk have big Ego's? Bill is spending
his time telling us how he does not use chalk, saying he can do routes
without it. Now who is boosting there ego?     
       
        From Bills posting's this year we know he uses spider mits. And
that he is just a 5.10 climber. Do spider mits count as something that
gets you up a climb easier. Should we all go back to climbing with
EB'S, instead of the latest style shoe. I'm sure Bill does not climb
in an out dated shoe, but uses the latest technology to do harder
climbs. Should we stop using camming devices beacuse they make it
easier to do pure crack climbs. I say no. If chalk helps a person
do a 5.7 or 5.14a what difference does it make. The person still has
to get up the climb.

	Bills says he does not use chalk, He has also posted several
times this year that he climbed at Pinnicales, doing  POD, Buffalo
Soilder, Anchor Scream, Big Pucker  and other routes. Well unless
he was the first person on these routes after a heaver rain, and for
POD, a sideways rain, Bill has used Chalk. POD is so covered with chalk
that you don't need to bring your own to get chalked up for the route.
And the other routes are also covered with chalked holds.  Maybe Bill
uses a tooth brush to clean the holds before he uses them to avoid the
chalk. 
	Who are the big Ego climbers that use chalk. Bill has told
us that he does not climb with people better than him most of the time.
How would he know that climbers who use chalk have big ego's? 

	Was it not only a short while ago that Bill said that reach was
not an issue?  And people on the net pointed out that most of the top
climbers were taller than 6 feet. 


	Yeah, I've climbed with Bill Wright, in fact I have been part
of his slack stick postings. Lets not forget how Bill wrote that
He, lead another climber  and I up Royal Arches in X-time, instead of
saying that we did the route quickly.  

	Ah to chalk or not to be. 


 Michael 
	

--
Michael Brodesky Internet Mbrodesky@sc9.Intel.com
UUCP : {pur-ee,qanad,oliveb,decwrl,hplabs}!intelca!mipos3!td2cad!brodesky
Sally sold sea shells. Ned Needamyer needled his nose on the nose. 
During the week I climb left to right. On weekends I climb up and down.
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Rope Replacement
From: markw@dranet.dra.com
Date: 15 Sep 92 10:23:55 CDT
Distribution: world
Organization: Data Research Associates, St. Louis MO

I have a rope that is a couple of years old but has never been used.  What is
the going consensus on rope replacement?  Is it just determined by use/wear, or
should age be a factor as well?

Reply or Post responses.

Thanks,
Mark
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: msentell@resdgs1.er.usgs.gov (Mark Sentell)
Subject: Crag bag suggestions
Originator: msentell@resdgs1.er.usgs.gov
Organization: United States Geological Survey
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 14:48:13 GMT


Does anyone have suggestions for crag bags?  Please respond via e-mail.
 
mws

-- 
Mark Sentell                           |  msentell@resdgs1.er.usgs.gov
United States Geological Survey        | 
Reston, VA                             |  [INSERT SNAZZY TAGLINE HERE] 
(703) 648-4526                         |                      
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: jrb@Ingres.COM (John Black)
Subject: Re: Reasons for using chalk
Keywords: let's be reasonable
Organization: Ingres, an ASK Company, Alameda CA 94501
Date: 10 Sep 92 02:25:53 GMT

>Wow! I really hit Bill's hot button!
>
Zowie!  You did!  :-)

>   Question for Bill: are you offended just by the visual appearance
>   of chalk, or also by the performance-enhancing aspects?
>   How would you feel about an invisible method for inhibiting
>   hand perspiration that didn't leave a residue on the rock?
>
I think people are missing the point here.  The answer is IT WOULD BE FINE!

The underlying philosophy that I've put forward here about 10 times in the last
couple of years is this: climb however you want without destroying the rock or
detracting from the enjoyment of others.

If you follow these rules, then I or Bill or most of our friends don't care
one bit if you use a sweat-deterrent, spider mitts, fifi hooks, or pogo sticks
to get up the route.  You can pull pro, get out the aiders, lead it free, solo
it, top-rope it, or just look at it and run away.  It's not hurting anyone!!

Once you allow yourself performance-enhancers that destroy the rock or detract
from the enjoyment of others, then you must be conscious of what you're doing
and weigh the consequences.  Bolts, hold chipping, trail building, gardening,
and yes, chalk, are all examples of things which violate the basic rule.  Chalk
changes the look of the rock; therefore it has an impact and each of us has to
acknowledge this and decide whether we still want to use it.  I have chosen to
do so; Bill has decided not to.

>7. Let's try to keep this forum one for reasoned debate,
>   not foaming-at-the-mouth ranting and raving.
>   Provocative, vitriolic postings do tend to draw more response,
>   but they don't lend credibility to the poster.
>
I should mention that all Bill's partners (including his girlfriend) use chalk.
And he doesn't EVER mention it or guilt-trip any of us about it or use his lack
of chalk as an excuse.  Chalk isn't Bill's hot-button; the hot button is hit 
by people who are fooling themselves about why they use it.

john//
From: rob@cygnus.com (Rob Savoye)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: Climbing Matterhorn
Date: 15 Sep 92 04:19:43 GMT
	<1992Sep14.181036.3471@news.mentorg.com>
Organization: Cygnus Support -- +1 415 322 3811
In-reply-to: billw@ace.mentorg.com's message of Mon, 14 Sep 1992 18:10:36 GMT

In article <1992Sep14.181036.3471@news.mentorg.com> billw@ace.mentorg.com (Bill Wright) writes:


   This is not accurate and I thought I would clear up things.  I have climbed
   this route and it sounds like Rob has not, but I am not sure.  Guides
   usually start around 3:30 to 4 a.m. and most people do NOT get in front of
   the guides.  For one the route finding is complex and very difficult in the
   dark.  It is more efficient to try and follow the guides.  The guides are
   extremely fast and it is difficult to keep up with them even when they
   are guiding weaker climbers than you.  Rock fall certainly is a danger on
   this route.

 I don't want a flame war, but I have climbed it. I didn't get in
front of the guides either. I wish I had, then I wouldn't have had to
deal with rescuing a Swiss guide. (He died I was told later) The route
finding is complex. I met several people who spent all there time
wandering around lost and never really climbing. I personally have a
pet peeve about passing people on a route.

   the same way you go up.  People who call this route a "walk up" have, 
   invariably not been up it.  Under ideal conditions it probably isn't too bad,
   but no hiker will make it up this mountain safely without a guide. 
 
 Agreed. No "hiker".

   By hiking instead of taking the cable car you saved yourself at most two
   hours of hiking.  The cable car takes you about halfway to the hut.  Most
   people attempt the North Face from the Hornli Hut.  If you want to get away
   from the crowded scene at the Matterhorn do one of three things:

 Another pet peeve. I hate cable cars. They are *ugly* Cable cars have
runined some of the best senic views in the Alps. Give me a good hike
in anyday. Switzerland made me *really* appreciate the Rockies.

	   2.) Climb a different route.  Sounds like you attempted this.  Hard
	   to believe crowds drove you away from the North Face.

 Actually, the problem was nasty crevass, that we deemed too time
consuming, so we picked another route. Unfortunately, the only other
route around was the tourist route.

Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: bill@bohemia.metronet.org (Bill Dixon)
Subject: Re: Leading on 9mm?
Organization: Bohemia BBS System
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 02:45:34 GMT

trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU (wayne trzyna) writes:

>In article <1992Sep2.071849.28499@news.uit.no> paale@stud.cs.uit.no (Paal Ellingsen) writes:
>>My question is: is it safe to lead on a single 9mm, as long as you don't get any
>>long runouts? Accoording to the technical spesifications, a good 9mm can take
>>more UIAA-falls than my old 10.5mm, but are there any good arguments against
>>using a 9mm for leading?

>Yes.  Consider sharp edges and/or abrasive surfaces.
>-- 

>-Wayne Trzyna
> trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU

Consider the type of fall too!!! 10.5's are generally rated a single ropes
(ie 80kg falls) where 9's are generally rated as half ropes (ie 55kg falls).
This is approximate, if u want the UIAA standards for rope testing, I'll
look 'em up and post'em. Generally they can be found in most rope manufacturer's
catalogs. (Blue Water's got 'em for sure)

					-Bill
From: martyg@Ingres.COM (Marty Garrison)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: Reasons for using chalk
Keywords: save your butt
Date: 9 Sep 92 18:45:30 GMT
Reply-To: martyg@Ingres.COM (Marty Garrison)
Organization: Ask Computer Systems Inc., Ingres Division, Alameda CA 94501

In article <1992Sep09.181102.3153@news.mentorg.com> billw@sjc.mentorg.com writes:
>
>Now things are getting going!  I thought the chalk hyprocrites would
>start posting eventually.
>


Started using chalk twenty years ago, now even when I forget my bag
my hands instinctively look for the dip at rests or between moves.
I'm not convinced that chalk actually makes the physical climbing
any easier, but whenever I forget my bag I feel somewhat like linus
without his blanket. Not a great habit I suppose, but for me just
part of the ritual.

Marty
From: davidd@chinook.cs.washington.edu (David Doll)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: suggestions for climbing in the San Jose area
Date: 6 Sep 92 23:44:25 GMT
Distribution: rec
Organization: /homes/gws/davidd/.organization


Hello, this is for a friend. He'll be in the San Jose area for a couple
of weeks in Oct and is looking for suggestions on where to climb
near(?) by. Any info would be helpfull. Thanks.

David
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: timsc@hwcae.Honeywell.COM (Tim Schneider)
Subject: crack gloves
Reply-To: timsc@hwcae.honeywell.com
Organization: Honeywell, Air Transport Division; Phoenix, AZ
Distribution: rec
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 17:35:03 GMT


I know of others who use a piece of old tire innertube cut to fit the
back of their hand.  I'f you're really patient you can make several
finger holes etc then attach the whole thing with a strip or two of
athletic tape.  Probably not as sticky as stealth though!

I've always just used a pad of atheletic tape, secured with several
smaller strips,  always look like a boxer when I'm through though,
getting ready to work the small bag!

Sure saves the back of those hands though!  That way you can still do
those palmolive commercials!

--
            tim schneider

    timsc@hwcae.honeywell.com  OR
  uunet!asuvax!hwcae.honeywell.com!timsc
           (602) 436-3078
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: Justin Norfleet <jpn1@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: Rope condition questions
X-Xxdate: Wed, 9 Sep 92 17: 50:02 GMT
Nntp-Posting-User: jpn1@cornell.edu
Organization: Cornell University
X-Useragent: Nuntius v1.1.1d7
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 21:45:19 GMT

Subject: Re: Rope condition questions
From: Bruce Gustifson, bruceg@Cadence.COM
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 15:36:49 GMT
In article <1992Sep8.153649.865@Cadence.COM> Bruce Gustifson,
bruceg@Cadence.COM writes:
>In article <1992Aug28.190939.7203@ac.dal.ca> rclarke@ac.dal.ca writes:
>>Is there a rapel device that dosen't twist the rope because I'm getting
tired
>>of unwinding my rope after every climb I do.
>
>  A sticht plate is a device which doesn't impart much twist to the
>rope. The problem with this is that most plates I've seen are made
>for 2 different rope sizes. ATC should be good for this also.

How about a brake-bar rack?  Variable resistance (get one with six bars);
no twist; no problem on really long rappels.   Easy to lock off too.

Justin "my .sig isn't ready yet" Norfleet
j_norfleet@cornell.edu
From: luong@naxos.inria.fr (Quang-Tuan Luong)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: Climbing Matterhorn
Date: 14 Sep 92 13:06:32 GMT
Reply-To: luong@sophia.inria.fr
Organization: Inria Sofia Antipolis

In article <51420004@hpscit.sc.hp.com>, anvick@hpscit.sc.hp.com (Janet Anvick) writes:
|> My husband, Scott, is looking into what it would require to climb the 
|> Matterhorn.  [...]

The easiest route is the Hornl ridge. There is almost no technical difficulty,
as there are fixed hausers on the steep parts. The problems with this route
are:
- high altitude
- exposure
- loose rock and routefinding
- crowd
If you just want to climb the Matterhorn, it is the esiest way, but I
would recommend rather the Lion ridge, which is more beautiful, and not
much more difficult (there are also hausers). 

What is required:
- good conditions on the mountain.
- good physical shape, including probably aclimatisation.
- some knowledge and practice of the techniques of mountain climbing:
 o the use of the rope, belays, simulclimbing...
 o progression in easy mixed terrain 
 o experience with long routes

Tuan.
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: t9613aa@sun1.LRZ-Muenchen.DE (Karl Wild)
Subject: Re: Wolfgang Guellich is dead
Organization: Leibniz-Rechenzentrum, Muenchen (Germany)
Distribution: lrz
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 07:42:30 GMT

timsc@hwcae.Honeywell.COM (Tim Schneider) writes:


>I also heard this from a fellow at Nomad Ventures in Idyllwild this
>past weekend.

>They had heard the news from someone at the Yosemite Mountain School,
>something about an accident involving very high speeds.

>--
>            tim schneider

>    timsc@hwcae.honeywell.com  OR
>  uunet!asuvax!hwcae.honeywell.com!timsc
>           (602) 436-3078


The accident happend on Saturday (Sept. 5) around noon. During the morning
he was in Munich for a radio interview. On the way home, near Ingolstadt,
he probably fell asleep and crashed into the crash-barrier of the autobahn.
Wolfgang Guellich died Monday morning in the hospital.


Karl
t9613aa@sun1.lrz-muenchen.de

Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: czichon@psyche.csc.ti.com (Cary Czichon)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: <None> Spider Mitts
Date: 10 Sep 92 18:07:19 GMT
Organization: Texas Instruments

In article <1992Sep10.100916.58768@cc.usu.edu> sinclair@cc.usu.edu
(Bob Sinclair) writes:
>Many climbers use tape, I make a sort of tape glove
>that is re-usable, others cheat and use spider mits (many :-) needed here!)

Why do people feel using spider mitts is "cheating"?  Is using climbing shoes
cheating?  I've had a pair of spider mitts for some time.  On some cracks
they're real hand savers.  On others they're a waste of time.  I had hoped that
newer, improved versions of the mitts would on the market by now.  I consider
the current version to be a prototype.

Cary Czichon
czichon@csc.ti.com
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: Thomas.Oeser@graphics.ap.mchp.sni.de  (Thomas Oeser)
Subject: Re: Wolfgang Guellich is dead
Reply-To: Thomas.Oeser@graphics.ap.mchp.sni.de  (Thomas Oeser)
Organization: Siemens Nixdorf Informationssysteme AG
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 92 13:03:52 GMT


YES, a good guy l no longer shows us the limits of rock climbing!!

Wolfgang died after he had an severe car accident on the highway between
Munich and Nuernberg last staturday (September 5th.).

I personally knew no more details but this was reported in the newspaper
called "Sueddeutsche Zeitung".
-- Thomas Oeser

Siemens Nixdorf Informationssysteme AG, SNI AP 153
D-8000 Muenchen 83, Carl-Wery-Strasse 22, Germany
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: ekp@mcnc.org (Edward Pavelchek)
Subject: Rope & Hardware Import duties?
Organization: Good place for a disclaimer
Distribution: na
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 22:23:49 GMT

In the past I received a couple of orders from MEC (in Canada, you know)
without any evidence of official tampering.  But then I ordered a travel
pack, and it arrived with a healthy COD of about 25% for Customs.

Since they offer some fairly attractive prices on ropes now, I called
two Customs locations, receiving non binding phone opinions that 
1) polyamide ropes were duty free
2) plaited or braided synthetic ropes 9%

If you all in the States who have ordered from MEC and remember what,
and what duties you paid, will write me, I will summarize for the net.

Tnx
-- 
Ed Pavelchek   ekp@mcnc.org
But I make a profit of 3 1/4 cents an egg by selling them for 4 1/4
cents an egg to the people in Malta I buy them from for 7 cents an egg.
Of course, *I* don't make the profit.          Joseph Heller, Catcha 22
Newsgroups: rec.climbing,sci.geo.meteorology