From: Steve.Gross@bbs.oit.unc.edu (Steve Gross)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Predestination Mr. Adams
Date: 29 Jul 92 17:43:15 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Extended Bulletin Board Service


 adams@spss.com (Steve Adams) writes :    in response to what I wrote,
>Steve Gross) writes:

>>I disagree with the statement that you made to gross@rtp... .  The bible
>>does indeed say in many places that only the elect will become saved,
>>because God has foreordained it.  Other than that, many inferences to the
>>doctrince of predestination exist.
>Hmm.  The doctrine of predestination causes quite a few questions to come
>up.  If man has no free-will, then what's the point?  God created a set of
>puppets to entertain him?  Are you truly saying that we have no choice in
>the matter.  If, as I suspect, you are saying this, may I ask if you happen
>to be a 5-point Calvinist?
>

----I do beleive what Calvin says yes.   I would consider myself more of a
reformed  Calvinist though.  Hard to explain in a short time.
Free will is not the issue here Mr. Adams.  Everyone has a free will
indeed, but that is not important when it comes to salvation.  I agree
with you that Salvation is a free gift, but I disagree with you that we
have the ability to "choose" God.  If we are born into sin, i.e spiritual
separation from god, the, how could we ever hope to get together again? 
The bible says that we are wicked, and that if left to our own ways, we
would NEVER choose God.  We are not puppets, as we have a free will.  We
are, however, not able to choose God.  Free will never enters into the
Salvation equation.


>>In order to beleive that some are predestined and some not though, you
>>have to believe in the sovereignty of God.  I am not convinced that you
>>do.  The doctrine of predestination is actually very comforting and
>>encouraging to the christian, because it shows unequivacally how much
>>Jesus, God, Holy Spirit, (three in one) love us.

Steve adams writes,
>I believe in the full and absolute sovereignty of God, and salvation
>through Jesus Christ.  I also believe that in His sovereignty, God has
>given us a free will, made us free moral agents, and allows us to chose our
>actions.  If we chose to follow Jesus Christ, accept him as our Lord and
>Saviour and confess that we are sinful, we can gain the gift of salvation.
>

---- As I said up there, we are given a free will, we are individuals ( I
don't quite know what you mean by moral agents )  You nor I, however, can
CHOOSE Christ.  The Holy Spirit is the activator in the equation.  He
gives us the ammount of faith it takes to beleive.  Before that, we never
had it, and never even wanted it.  He gives that faith in accordance with
the will of God.  We both know that the Holy Spirit only does what the
will of God is.  If everyone could be saved, then why hasn't the Holy
Spirit done it?  The bible says that God would that every man were saved.
(and women too I'm sure).


>There are two parts here.  God's gracious, undeserved gift of Salvation and
>man's faith in God to save him.  Justification by faith and salvation by
>grace. 

--  !!!  There is no physical action I can perform to receive this
gift, yet  !!!  --  (this is exactly my point.)

>if I confess Jesus is Lord and confess my sins, God who is merciful and
>just will forgive my sins and cleanse me from my unrighteosness.
>(paraphrase by me).

---- This is correct, but only when the Holy Spirit (God) initiates it. 
He initiats it because it is his will that (whomever) becomes saved.  It
makes no sense to think that God would pick some and not others if he is
Just.  He picks and chooses, because he is sovereign, and knows in advance
who will and who won't be saved.


Steve Adams writes,
>Yes, God has the right to pick and chose.  Absolutely.  But He has set down
>a condition : faith in Him and trust in His salvation, granted as a gift,
>through the life, death and resurection of His Son.  Salvation is NOT out
>of reach of anyone who will follow Christ, and believes in Him and walks in
>his ways, to the glory of His holy name.
>


---- the condition may exist, but WE would never choose to meet the
requirements.  Except for the intervention of God, we would be forever
lost in our sins.  This is why the bible says that God will reconcile
mankind to himself.  Not that man will reconcile himself to God by choice.


Steve Adams writes,
>Predesitination would hardly be a blessing.  It says, basically, that we
>have no control over what we do.  That our thoughts, words and deeds have
>absolutely no meaning, as they were pre-ordained.  What meaning do our
>actions have?  I could do anything I pleased, for if I were one of the
>elect, my actions would have no effect on my salvation.
>

---- This is not entirely correct.  The doctrine of predestination only
applies to Salvation.  The rest of the bible's truths and doctrines apply
to everyday life.  You could not do anything you wanted and get away with
it, because the Holy Spirit would convict you  of your sin.  True enough
though, it would have no effect on your salvation, as salvation is
forever.   Hence the bible saying No man can pluck them out of my hand 
(paraphrase by me from John's gospel somewhere near the 15th ch.)



Mr. Adams writes,
>Ah, but see, predestination is not a universal Christian idea.  Good,
>honest Christians disagree.  I submit to you that YOU might be the one who
>has missed to meaning of the text.  Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't believe 
>you have received some dispensation from God which says that your
>interpretation is correct, and the only one.
>

----Certainly not.  You always accuse me of that though.  I don't think I
ever have said it.  Many good christians disagree because they like you
want to have something to do with the salvation process, when truth is
they don't.  We have a lot of pride saying that we can choose to believe
in Christ.  Humanity ALWAYS wants to be responsible.  Why I don't know. 
Why do we always have to have something to do with the process.  why can't
wejust accept it as God's love for us, and rejoice in that??


God Bless,
Steve.Gross


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