From: msb@samson.bnr.ca (Morris Bernstein)
Subject: Re: Sharon Green
Organization: Bell Northern Research Montreal, Canada.
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 92 15:26:47 GMT

In article <BxDz78.M4v@news.cso.uiuc.edu> jwright@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Ceridwyn) writes:
>msb@samson.bnr.ca (Morris Bernstein) writes:
>
>>I don't know about Norman (I've only seen the movie), but I think
>>Green's books have slightly more depth.  They're not so much about
>>(women's) place in society as about individuals (male and female)
>>learning to overcome obstacles.  Besides, I found them entertaining.
>
>I wouldn't go that far...I've read two 6-book series<Jalav and Terrillian>
>by Sharon Green + most of her other books<I think>...
>Basic Plot Summary of all Sharon Green books:
>1)strong, female main character...independent
>2)strong female in barbaric system<any system technically less advanced
>  than her own world>
>3)great female char. meets barbaric male that thinks women should serve him
>  because he's so great
>4)woman doesn't like this at all...
>5)man probably rapes or, or at least practices some serious bondage with
>  her...in other words: she doesn't want it but he assumes that she does.
>6)woman HATES man
>7)woman starts to like it, though
>8)woman loves man
>9)woman ends up doing what man wants...and they all live happily ever after.

I've read Terrillian.  We're not talking "Great Literarture" here
[:-)], but I think your summary is a little on the superfical side.

1) The female character is not strong and independent.  She has some
surface attributes, but in many respects is really quite immature.

2) Barbaric system: lot's of stories have fantasy elements.  That's
why people read fiction.

3) Said barbaric male is as much a product of his society as said
female.  We in civilized society believe that a measure of
civilization is the ability of the society to care for its weaker
members.  There are other social systems.  The ideal system is
probably a benevolent dictatorship, but there is no known way of
ensuring benevolence once the dictatorship is established.  At least
said barbaric male can be said to be acting in the interest of his
people (as he perceives it).

4) Who would?  At the very least, we're talking severe culture shock
:-).  She goes from being someone with high status in her world to
being someone with inherently low status.  Life is not always fair and
fiction is left to the arbitrary whims of the author.  The question
is, how does she overcome her setback.

5) So the early rape scene was gratuitous.  RAH put a rape scene early
in one of his later novels, too.  It's fiction.  In reality, without
explicit agreement to the contrary, 'no' has to mean 'no' or else
there's no basis for any kind of meeting of minds.  If one can't
distinguish between fiction and reality, one should be locked up as
permanantly dysfunctional.

The rest of her condition is the result of her agreeing (being forced
to agree) to operate under necessary constraints within the barbaric
society and then reneging.  Furthermore, it is as much due to the
cultural limitations of the barbarian, who sees society as a place
where the strong make the rules and the weak fit in.

In the end, the female character is made stronger by her experience.

6) Of course, without conflict, the story would be boring.

7) Woman *does* *not* start to like it.  Quite the opposite.  She does
start to adapt, but never fits in.  She envies the sense of belonging
that other women have, but she isn't able to achieve it herself.  She
never enjoys rape (even, if the guy is _good_), but comes to some kind
of understanding after negotiation and mediation.  Both the man and
the woman do have to adapt.  It's called growth.

In subsequent adventures in the story, she goes through a series of
ordeals (including more rape, but by strangers).  This has two
effects: instead of breaking her, it makes her stronger; and it gives
her experience to compare with her treatment by the barbarian.  The
point is that the barbarian *is* acting in her interests, within his
own limitations.

8) Ah, romance.  Sigh.

9) Woman does not end up doing what man wants.  They both change and
grow.  Man's horizon is widened by the experience as much as woman's
horizon.  And I *like* it when the characters live happily ever after.
It's entertaining escapism.


The two singles that I read don't follow this exact summary.  "Lady
Blade, Lord Fighter" does not have any rape or bondage (although there
was a seduction under false pretenses).  The female does not hate the
male character; she considers him an enemy due to convoluted
misunderstandings.  She is a product of said barbaric society and not
from a more advanced one.  The male does not think he should serve
her; he is more concerned with honour, duty, and fulfilling his own
commitments; and he is in love.

"Mists of the Ages" does not follow your plot summary either.

Yes, the stories have strong female and male lead characters, but
that's a necessary feature of the romantic/adventure story.  I don't
think I would be as interested in the story if both characters were
male (others might, but I wouldn't).


Look, there are a lot of authors who's work can be summed up as
tritely.  I read a summary of Spider Robinson that reads something
like:
	Wouldn't it be wonderful if everyone could let go of all that
	psychic baggage (crap) that keeps them from exploiting their
	full potential.
I still enjoy reading that stuff.


>
>>I was killing some time in a library this week and I looked her up in
>>_Contemporary_Authors_.  It's amazing how much 6 column-inches can say
>>about a person.  She sounds like a person worth knowing.
>
>I haven't met her...she was scheduled to go to a convention that I went to,
>but she didn't show<snyff>

If you denegrate her work, why are you so broken up at not being able
to meet her? :-)


>
>>What I *would* like to know is why she has (apparently) stopped
>>writing.  I've read one of her series that went to a logical
>>conclusion, but her last two books (_Lady_Blade,_Lord_Fighter_ and
>>_Mists_of_the_Ages_) were written several years ago and ended on cliff
>>hangers.  I'ld really like to find out how the stories end.  Does
>>anyone know?
>
>Understatement!!!....One of her books<i won't give away which> ends:
>"Until then-"

Yeah, that was a real mind fuck.  At least if I had some reason to
expect that continuation of the story is 'in progress'...

>I don't think that was fair!  You finally begin to respect said female
>again and the book just ENDS!  Aaaarrrrghhhhhh...!!

What do you mean 'again'?  The character in question is always worthy
of respect.  The story occurs mostly due to misunderstanding and her
being forced to 'earn' the respect that the male is granted
automatically.

Although I am male, it is a theme that somehow strikes a chord within
me.  The consistent definition of 'honour' in Green's books appeals to
me, even if reality is a little more complex.


>I do like her books for some reason, though.  I think it is because she
>has talent with creating different worlds and other perspectives and planes.
>The setting of her books just drew me in...I still don't know about the 

Her stories appeal to me too.  I wouldn't say that they are the
greatest stories ever told, but they suceed in entertaining me.
Telling an entertaining story is no small achievement...

>rape, though...
>man rapes woman
>woman begins to like it...or 
>man rapes woman
>woman enjoys the rape because man is so experienced sexually 
>  a woman can't help enjoying it...<he's too good...aaaack>

I've tried to make a case for her books having somewhat more depth,
but even if they don't, so what?  Some people enjoy that kind of
story.  I'ld rather such ideas explored in fiction.

I respect your right to say that it doesn't do anything for you.  The
bottom line is that an author writes a novel for his/her own reasons
and the rest of the world votes with their wallets.

I have friends who are mensa members who single-handedly keep
Harlequin in business...


>
>-- 
>       Ceridwyn                         "If I wanted your opinion
>jwright@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu                    I'd give it to you."
>filker/pagan/lesbian/Misty fan                   -Dianne- 
>/Indigo Girls worshiper/MCC fan


Morris
--
Morris Bernstein		 phone:	(514) 765-8275
Bell Northern Research Ltd. 	 fax:	(514) 765-0500
worldnet: bnrmtl!msb@larry.mcrcim.mcgill.edu
"Knowledge is a mind-expanding drug."