HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: tai@ailab.ncsu.edu (Scott Tai)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: /T/T/T/ What is the purpose of this newsgroup and Mensa?
Date: 6 Apr 92 18:04:14 GMT
Reply-To: tai@ailab.ncsu.edu (Scott Tai)
Organization: NCSU Artificial Intelligence Systems Laboratory

>tai@ailab.ncsu.edu (Scott Tai) writes:
>>phil%miracle@merk.com (Phil Hill) writes:
>>
>>> Or paraphrased for those of you who can't decypher nested threads:
>>
>>> Monty:  Is this newsgroup typical of Mensa?
>>> Tai:    Sadly enough, it is.
>>> Peter:  Mr. Tai is not a member of Mensa can't answer Monty's question.
>>> Tai:    I know what Mensa is like because I read this newsgroup.
>>
>>> I want to see you worm your way out of this one!
>>
>>Wrong, I said:
>>
>>By keeping up with this newsgroup since its inception, I tend to disagree.
>>If the posters to this group are representative of MENSA as a whole, than
>>I have undoubtedly gained some insight into this organization.
>>
>>This is unquestionably true.

>Mr. Tai, your bullshit level is incomprehensible!

>My Last posting on the subject mentioned the above quote VERBATIUM.
>You have quoted me out of contect, re-posted a comment that was incloded in
>my posting, and said that you are right.  This shows that you are just
>totally full of bullshit.  I am not going to let you worm out of this one!
>You have committed a grave error here.

I think michaelg@Xenon.Stanford.EDU (Michael Greenwald) said it best:

> "I know what Mensa is like because I read this newsgroup" 

> does not seem to be a reasonable translation of 

> ">>>If<<< the posters to this group are representative of MENSA as a
> whole, >>>than<<< I have undoubtedly gained some insight into this
> organization."

> I have emphasized "If" and "than" [sic].  Many people have used your
> interpretation of Scott's words to construct a straw man they then
> proceed to knock down.

> Come on.  The second clause of Scott Tai's statement might be false,
> (although, to nitpick, even if "the posters to this group are not
> representative of Mensa as a whole" it is possible that "[Scott] has
> gained some insight into [Mensa]", although the mechanism implied by
> his statement would not be the agent of his "gaining insight"), but
> here you are not arguing, you are just picking a fight.

> [...] If you aren't going to respond in a "civilized" way, (i.e. argument,
> rather than repetitive baiting), then maybe you should "step outside" (and
> "come back in friends"? to complete the cliche).

Phil, I want to see YOU worm your way out of this one!!!

Better yet, let's let your ridiculous thread drop.


---------
Scott Tai
From: Mike.Steiner@p1.f207.n143.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Mike Steiner)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Burning Praries
Date: 8 Apr 92 05:57:40 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:143/207.1 - Sunnyvale Fido Conn, Sunnyvale CA


John Chambers writes about "Burning Praries" to All  [07 Apr 92 20:42]

John, even if we could implement the prairie agriculture system, what other
changes would our society need?  What population level could it support, for
instance?
 
/207 143/207
--  
Mike Steiner
UUCP: uts.amdahl.com!kennel!207.1!Mike.Steiner
INTERNET: Mike.Steiner@p1.f207.n143.z1.FIDONET.ORG
"The views expressed above are those of Mike Steiner only."
From: Dave.Aronson@f120.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Dave Aronson)
Sender: Uucp@blkcat.UUCP
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Issac Asimov
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1992 20:47:48 -0500

noonan@sonata.enet.dec.com writes:

 > Mike_Steiner@qm.claris.com (Mike Steiner) writes...

 >> Other notable Mensans include [...].

 > And me.  One must never forget *me*!

Who?  B-)
From: rrp@cbnewsg.cb.att.com (rakesh.r.patel)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: IQ Stats
Date: 16 Apr 92 17:53:46 GMT
Organization: AT&T


I know this kind of a question is not politically correct but I have to ask.

Has an IQ survey ever been conducted to determine IQs on a national basis?
What I am trying to say is:  Has there every been an IQ survey for entire
countries (on a random sampling, of course) to determine the average IQ of
an entire country?   If yes, what were the results?


Rakesh Patel
From: Dave.Aronson@f120.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Dave Aronson)
Sender: Uucp@blkcat.UUCP
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Harsh Language in Recent Post
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1992 00:15:42 -0500

mcbeanb@brandonu.ca writes to dh4j+@andrew.cmu.edu (David O Hunt):

 m> About the army, you didn't *have* to join the army there

 I don't recall his having mentioned *when* he joined the Army, or his
 age, so your assertion may be false.  Well, yeah, he coulda gotten out
 of the draft by signing up for the Navy or Air Force, but....  B-)

Organization: Masters student, Mechanical Engineering, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Date: Thu,  9 Apr 1992 13:21:54 -0400 
From: David O Hunt <dh4j+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Fwd: /T/T/ Cattell Culture Fair Test



>>>I'm curious why the Cattell score required is significantly higher
>>>( > 15 points) than for any other IQ tests.
>
>>Could it possibly be that the scales are different?  Just perchance????
>
>You tell me; I'm asking.  (Didn't you criticize me earlier for posting
>'opinions not supported by fact' to this newsgroup?)
>
>Scott Tai
Actually, if I recall correctly, I've never said anything critical about
you as regards your not knowing "the facts".  That's Mike's job!  :P

David
From: Dave.Aronson@f120.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Dave Aronson)
Sender: Uucp@blkcat.UUCP
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Brainwashing (was Re: IQ
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1992 16:22:54 -0500

graham@maths.su.oz.au (Graham Matthews) writes:

GM> Arguments I have admitted to losing on the net include :-
[...]
GM> b) that atheism is a belief system. Beaten first time around by
GM> numerous people.

 I must have missed this one.  Perhaps it hinges on a different
 definition than springs to my mind of "atheism" (belief in the
 non-existence of God) and "belief system" (can't think of a good
 concise def'n but "I know it when I see it" B-) ), but from my POV, it
 looks self-evident to me.  Could you please summarize (by email if you
 don't want to "inflict it on" everybody else again) the arguments that
 convinced you?
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: SAT scores and Mensa
From: mcbeanb@brandonu.ca
Date: 15 Apr 92 11:11:03 CST
Organization: Brandon University, Brandon, Manitoba, Canada

In article <1992Apr14.021642.13635@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu>, peltz@cerl.uiuc.edu (Steve Peltz) writes:
> Ok, if y'all can leave off your stupidity for a bit, I'd like to ask a
> question.
> 
> An earlier comment implied that Mensa will accept the result of the SAT
> for qualifying for membership. Is that correct? How recent does it need
> to be? And what are the cutoff limits?
> 
> I've heard good and bad about Mensa, and would be interested in hearing
> anecdotal evidence both ways.
> -- 
You'll hear plenty of the good, but not much of the bad because the Mensa
bashers are scared of the Mensa basher bashers :)

Brian McBean  -  McBeanB@BrandonU.Ca
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: terryk@encore.com (Terence M. Kelleher)
Subject: Mensa Publicity
Organization: Encore Computer Corporation
Date: 6 Apr 92 20:27:08


My local Mensa group offers a number of membership qualifications
tests each month.  One, the 2nd Wednesday of each month at a regular
location, and others at more or less random times in locations away
from the center of our designated area.  

I have been given the task of advertising these test date.  We have a
data base of newspapers, radio and TV stations, and I send public
service announcements to each on the list.  We also try to find
reasons to get articles in the local papers, whenever a good excuse
comes along.  

I would like to hear about any other publicity ideas.  Has your local
group done anything that has helped get applicants?



--

                                 +----------------+
Terence Kelleher              +--+-------------+  |
Encore Computer Corp.         |  | E N C O R E |  |
terryk@encore.com             |  +-------------+--+
607-687-2644                  +----------------+
From: tai@ailab.ncsu.edu (Scott Tai)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: /T/T/T/T/ mrmrks and beating a dead horse ...
Date: 8 Apr 92 22:21:47 GMT
Reply-To: tai@ailab.ncsu.edu (Scott Tai)
Organization: NCSU Artificial Intelligence Systems Laboratory

shrum@eos.arc.nasa.gov (Richard Barry Shrum) writes:

> Scott,
> Did you try to join but didn't qualify? Is that it?

Not even close, Rick.

---------
Scott Tai
From: hollombe@polymath.tti.com (The Polymath)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: one simple question
Date: 6 Apr 92 19:01:46 GMT
Article-I.D.: ttidca.34335
Organization: The Cat Factory

In article <702047055.F00012@blkcat.UUCP> Dave.Aronson@f120.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Dave Aronson) writes:
}
} A bash not responded to looks, to the outside world, like a bash to
} which there cannot BE a response, because it is the truth.  Silence in
} the face of accusation is tantamount to confession.

What outside world?  This is going on in r.o.m.  Only the bashers think
their opinions have any validity and you're not going to change their
minds.

I know it's painful and the temptation to respond to flames with flames
can be overwhelming.  Never the less, your responses only lend credibility
to the bashers and encourage them to continue.  If you ignore them, they
will give up and go away.  Then there won't be any bashes to respond to.

I've seen this technique used to great effect in other groups.  It works.
The bashers are baiting us for their own entertainment.  Responding gives
them what they want and encourages them to continue.  If you ignore them
they _will_ give up and go away.  Even the stubbornest net.blockhead soon
tires of shouting at a blank wall.

The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe, M.A., CDP, aka: hollombe@soldev.tti.com)
Head Robot Wrangler at Citicorp                   Turn the rascals out!
3100 Ocean Park Blvd.   (310) 450-9111, x2483     No incumbents in '92!
Santa Monica, CA  90405 {rutgers|pyramid|philabs|psivax}!ttidca!hollombe
From: tai@ailab.ncsu.edu (Scott Tai)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: /T/T/ Scott just showed his true colors
Date: 8 Apr 92 22:50:28 GMT
Reply-To: tai@ailab.ncsu.edu (Scott Tai)
Organization: NCSU Artificial Intelligence Systems Laboratory

Mike.Steiner@p1.f207.n143.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Mike Steiner) writes:

> ST> [...] Studies have shown that intelligence is based primarily 
> ST> on hereditary and genetic factors. To have a group solely for 
> ST> people with a certain IQ or test score is nothing less than blatant 
> ST> discrimination [...] 

> ST> Where did I mention race in the above article? 

> SCREAM!!!!   Are you saying that race is neither hereditary nor genetic?
 
No, are you?

---------
Scott Tai
From: Dave.Aronson@f120.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Dave Aronson)
Sender: Uucp@blkcat.UUCP
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Mensa "Documentation"
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1992 16:50:52 -0500

tai@ailab.ncsu.edu (Scott Tai) writes:

ST> roger@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig) writes:

ST> > Now, once again, where't the implication?  Use Mensa documents and other
ST> > information about ACTUAL Mensa practices (not the ones YOU've assumed,
ST> > implied, inferred, or fantasized about) to demonstrate your point.

ST> Where is MENSA documentation available?

Call 1-800-66MENSA to get publicity pamphlets.  Show up (even w/o
registering) at any Regional (or Annual) Gathering and you can get
copies of dozens of local newsletters, SIG newsletters, Gathering
announcements, recruitment material, etc.  Your local group would
probably be willing to send you the local newsletter for free for a few
months as part of the standard recruitment procedures.  There are also
numerous books out on Mensa.  You can probably get copies of our
Constitution and a whole lot more if you write to HQ.  (I don't have the
address offhand, since I'm calling from the office, but it has been
posted many times and probably will be again shortly.)  There is also
at LEAST one officially-sanctioned book out about Mensa.

Mensa "documentation" ABOUNDS and is EASY to get hold of.  That you have
not quoted a single word of it speaks VERY ill for your integrity.
From: tai@ailab.ncsu.edu (Scott Tai)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: /T/ grohol and beating a dead horse ...
Date: 8 Apr 92 17:54:33 GMT
Reply-To: tai@ailab.ncsu.edu (Scott Tai)
Organization: NCSU Artificial Intelligence Systems Laboratory

grohol@novavax.UUCP (John Grohol) writes:

> ETS is nobody's God. Try looking at the research in the field. As
> I've said in the past, and will say so in the future, this is not
> even a matter of contention to those who are in the field of
> psychometric testing. The only person who seems to dispute these
> high correlations are you and ETS. Check out:

I am indeed interested in checking out these sources.  However, if possible,
please provide some additional information; as you can see, I've tried with
the information given and it is extremely tedious to track the stuff down!

> Edinger, Shipley, Watkins, & Hammett, 1985.
  2    Edinger, Catarina T. F.
  [...]
  10   Edinger, William.
> Fowles & Tunick, 1986.
  2    Fowles, Anthony
  [...]
  9    Fowles, John V.
> Gregg & Hoy, 1985.
  [ Numerous references ]
> Heinemann, Harper, Friedman, & Whitney, 1985.
  2    Heinemann, Dietrich,
  [...]
  13   Heinemann, Ronald L.
> Hiltonsmith, Hayman & Kleinman, 1984.
  1    Hilton, William Samuel.
  2    Hilts, Len
> Klett, Watson, & Hoffman, 1986.
  2    Klett, C. James, 1926- 
  [...]
  7    Kletter, Richard C.,
> Kling & Kupersmith, 1984.
  2    Kling, Arthur, 1929-
  [...]
  11   Kling, Samuel G 1910-
> Maxwell & Wise, 1984.
  [ Numerous references ]
> Retzlaff, Slicner, & Gibertini, 1986.
  AUTHOR: Retzlaff, Ralph H. (Ralph Herbert), 1929-.
  TITLE : Agricultural sector analysis in Asia /
> Zachary, Crumpton, & Spiegel, 1985.
  2    Zachary, Christopher B.
  [...]
  5    Zachary, W. W., 1935-
> Ryan & Rosenberg, 1983.
  [ Numerous references ]
> Matarazzo & Herman, 1984.
  2    Matarazzo, Benedetto.
  3    Matarazzo, James M., 1941-
  4    Matarazzo, Joseph D.

---------
Scott Tai
From: Mike.Steiner@p1.f207.n143.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Mike Steiner)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: /T/ Please Read (Esp S Tai)
Date: 7 Apr 92 08:07:11 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:143/207.1 - Sunnyvale Fido Conn, Sunnyvale CA


Scott Tai writes about "/T/ Please Read (Esp S Tai)" to All  [06 Apr 92 21:47]

ST>  Let me reiterate an earlier request that criticism should be 
ST> directed at the contents of an article, not at its author

When the contents are unsubstantiated lies and, diatribes, and accusations that
are devoid of meaningful content, that is hard to do--that's why you get flamed;
you don't have any content to be criticized.
 
/207 143/207
--  
Mike Steiner
UUCP: uts.amdahl.com!kennel!207.1!Mike.Steiner
INTERNET: Mike.Steiner@p1.f207.n143.z1.FIDONET.ORG
"The views expressed above are those of Mike Steiner only."
From: v058l789@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Ethan A Bowerman)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: TIME TRAVEL (long awaited...)
Date: 10 Apr 92 00:55:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41


	Well folks, sorry to dissappoint you, but someone already posted
essentially what IO was going to say.  I forgot the reaction (perhaps
an e- +  p ---> a positron (anti electron) and an electron are created.  
Basically the way the theroy goes, I real simple form is that if you were to
take a movie of an electron and play it backwards, then it would look 
exactly like an positron.  So the theory is that a positron is just an electron
moving backwards in time....
	Sorry it wasn't very spectacular... I could've lied for yall. :^)


					Ethan "Procrastinator" Bowerman
From: phil%miracle@merk.com (Phil Hill)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: bull bombs
Date: Sun, 05 Apr 92 22:59:32 EST
Organization: Miracle Computer Consultants

Dave.Aronson@f120.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Dave Aronson) writes:
>
> The following is a compiled reply to several things Scott Tai has
> posted.  The Players:
[Rest of posting deleted]

Dave, Thank you for responding in this way.  It allows you to state your
arguments without getting in the posting war that has been going on around
here.  Saving up your comments allows you to respond more clearly, and 
eliminated the "Argument Clinic" that has haunted r.o.m. for the last week
or so.

- Phil



-------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Phil Hill                     | "All you people in TV land,           |
| Miracle Computer Consultants  |   I will wake up your empty shells.   |
| Email: phil%miracle@merk.com  |  Peak time viewing blown in a flash,  |
|  -or-  phil.hill@channel1.com |   as I burn into your memory cells.   |
| FAX:   (508)875-3297          |  'cause I'm alive." - Peter Gabriel   |
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: crossgl@infonode.ingr.com (Gordon Cross)
Subject: Re: A Truly International Gathering
Keywords: Mensa in Holland
Organization: Intergraph Corporation, Huntsville, AL.
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1992 19:31:57 GMT

In article <1992Apr14.120127.27390@philtis.cft.philips.nl> arjay@philtis.cft.philips.nl (R.J. Kimmel) writes:

>Are any Mensans out there planning to attend the International
>Gathering in Holland later this year?  Considering the new groups
>in the eastern european countries that will be present, it may be
>interesting.

Well, I really wanted to check this one out; but since they chose to have it
the same weekend as HalloweeM (Chicago's RG), I had to make a choice.  Since
I am familiar with HalloweeM and since Chicago is easier/cheaper to get to,
I am foregoing the International Gathering for now.  Please post a review
when you get back - I'd like to know what I missed!

And now just to generate some actual Mensa-related posts ...



What are your favorite RGs??  Mine are in approximate order:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Asilomar			Monterey, CA
HalloweeM			Chicago, IL
Feast of Pleasures & Delights	Dallas, TX
Snowball			central NJ
Alabama RG			Huntsville, AL
Wholly Toledo			Toledo, OH
Mid Winter Madness		Washington, DC


RGs I've heard good things about but have not been to yet:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cape Cod Mini-RG		Dennisport, MA	(I'm going this year!)
RG at the end of the Universe	Manchester, NH
Great Dismal Swamp		Virginia Beach, VA
New England Pilgrammage		Boston, MA
Space Coast Mensa		central FL
Inland Empire			north-central CA
-- 

Gordon Cross          UUCP:     uunet!ingr!infonode!crossgl   "all opinions are
111 Westminister Way  INTERNET: crossgl@infonode.ingr.com    mine and not those
Madison, AL 35758     MA BELL:  (205) 730-7842               of my employer."
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: kyle@uunet.uu.net (Kyle Jones)
Subject: In Ghod We Trust
         (was Re: Harsh Language in Recent Post)
Organization: UUNET Communications Services
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1992 22:19:10 GMT

 > As to "In God We Trust", I resent having to see it every time
 > I pay for something.  How about putting "In Satan We Trust" on
 > money.

Of course from the standpoint of separation of church and state
(in the U.S.) the "In God We Trust" line ought to be go, but for
fun let's play with this.

"In Satan We Trust" is not a bad idea actually.  From the
standpoint of trust at least, if God and Satan are the cardboard
cutouts described in Christian dogma, you can trust each of them
to perform their roles with equal alacrity.  Just be careful that
you are sure what those roles are!

If God and Satan are more complex personalities than the Bible
leads us to believe then we have to be still more careful.  Trust
is usually based in part on knowledge of motivation and
commonality of purpose, so we have to dig deeper to determine who
we can trust.

Ignoring God for the moment, what might the motivations of Satan
be?  Misery loves company?  What might possess a creature to
challenge an omnipotent God?  "Your Honor, my client pleads not
guilty on the grounds of insanity."  Clearly Satan was insane, or
he had good reason to think he had a shot at winning.  Even if we
believe the latter, we must conclude that he is insane now, since
he (apparently) wants all mankind in Hell with him.  Then again
maybe not, since the Bible presumably wasn't written by people
one would trust to be honest about Satan's motivations.  The
penalties handed down to heretics were quite severe, not to
mention Divine punishment.  Crucifixion of Earth was plenty bad
without the risk of being roasted alive for all eternity added to
an already gruesome death.

Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: choy@skorpio.Usask.CA
Subject: Re: Non-sequitor, but interesting (was: A criticism)
Reply-To: choy@skorpio.Usask.CA
Organization: University of Saskatchewan
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1992 17:15:53 GMT


rhs@world.std.com says

> As local concentrations of organized matter
> and energy, we may be obliged to abide by lots of physical laws, but
> our actions are allowed to create short-term increases in local
> concentrations of matter and energy, and thereby defer the local effects
> of at least one physical law. 

Richard, what physical law are you referring to? Entropy?
Isn't entropy a statistical phenomenon that is not hard and fast
everywhere in the universe in the short term? Locally, things may be
organized naturally for whatever unknown reason. Lots of examples:
paramecium, bacterium, DNA, etc. The possibility of organization extends
to larger life forms since carbon, oxygen, hydrogen, and other atoms are
very abundant and can combine in so many ways. The organization that we
see may be not so fantastic.

Even if we can increase the order in the universe, there is no proof
entropy. Entropy might be something that we wrongly perceive. We proposed
entropy to be an explanation for many of the things that we observe, but
explanations must be tested. The test that invalidates entropy may be
a complete organization of the universe that we achieve.

Nevertheless, we may be operating under more fundamental physical laws.
Laws which are physically impossible to bend. I didn't say that we know
these laws though.



>  With this one exception, lots of structures have emerged,
> and some of these further increase the ability to organize.  Add to this the
> fact that some physical 'laws' are decidedly non-deterministic, and the
> conjecture that our actions are 'forced' is severely weakend


      I wrote "Intelligence is just something we've concocted."

When a person brings forth an idea of his invention, I might say this person
has concocted the idea. A computer program may come up with a number; the
program concocts the number.

But the point is if we act under physical laws beyond our control, we are
capable of concocting anything, even explanations for our behavior; the
physical laws apparently do not deny us this ability.

I criticize the idea that people are intelligent because physical laws
may be forcing us to do things that appear intelligent but may be actually
bad for us--we can't judge the goodness unless we know what the physical
laws are though.



Henry Choy
choy@skorpio.usask.ca
From: Mike.Steiner@p1.f207.n143.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Mike Steiner)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Tai's Lies
Date: 6 Apr 92 10:17:49 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:143/207.1 - Sunnyvale Fido Conn, Sunnyvale CA


Scott Tai writes about "Tai's Lies" to All  [05 Apr 92 23:55]

> And what do you propose as a subsitute for the 2% rule?  Without some
> requirements Mensa becomes just another generic social organization
> without the many benefits that It now offers it's members.

ST>  Like what benefits? Not having to interact with minority members? 

What's the matter, fuckface?  You can't come up with any legitimate criticism
of Mensa, so you have to resort to inventing lies?

Your racial bigotry makes me puke, slimball.
 
/207 143/207
--  
Mike Steiner
UUCP: uts.amdahl.com!kennel!207.1!Mike.Steiner
INTERNET: Mike.Steiner@p1.f207.n143.z1.FIDONET.ORG
"The views expressed above are those of Mike Steiner only."