From: ingrcfb@bnr.ca (Charles Board)
Subject: Re: Omniscient
Organization: Bell-Northern Research
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 00:45:58 GMT

In article <1992Dec17.183051.19456@ee.gatech.edu>, ldh@eedsp.gatech.edu (Lonnie D Harvel) writes:
|> In article <1992Dec14.150149.19415@oclc.org>, you write:
|> |> ldh@eedsp.gatech.edu (Lonnie D Harvel) writes:
|> |> : In article <1992Dec9.145259.29567@oclc.org>, jay@oclc.org (Jeff Young) writes:
|> |> : |> ldh@eedsp.gatech.edu (Lonnie D Harvel) writes:
|> |> : |> : 
|> |> : |> : Not correct.  Foreknowledge and predestination are not
|> |> : |> : the same thing.
|> |> : |> 
|> |> : |> I didn't say they were the same thing, I said that God had 
|> |> : |> foreknowledge of our actions and still chose to create us, 
|> |> : |> therefore our actions are predestined.  How can you deny
|> |> : |> such a common sense idea?  If you want to convince me otherwise,
|> |> : |> how about elaborating on your assertion?
|> |> : |> 
|> |> : 
|> |> : Well, by my definitions, predestination means A&E had no
|> |> : choice, God decided that they would sin.  Foreknowldge means
|> |> : that God new ahead of time that they would choose to sin.
|> |> : The difference seems clear to me.
|> |> 
|> |> Why do you keep repeating this?  I have already agreed with your
|> |> definitions.  Repeating the definitions and pointing out
|> |> the difference is beside the point!  I said that predestination
|> |> logically *follows* from foreknowledge, *NOT* that they are the same
|> |> thing.  What were the odds that A&E would commit Original Sin?
|> |> God knew with 100% certainty when he created them that they would
|> |> Fall.  God would be pretty suprised if A&E avoided the Fall in 
|> |> spite of his 100% foreknowledge that they *would* Fall.  Therefore,
|> |> in spite of appearances, A&E had 0% possibility of avoiding it.
|> |> How can you avoid the conclusion that it wasn't predestined?  And
|> 
|> I am sorry if I am repeating, but one of us is confused, and
|> it may well be me. 
|> 
|> We agree that foreknowledge and predestination are not
|> the same.  That foreknowledge is knowing with 100% certainty
|> what will happen, and predestination is deciding in advance
|> what somebody will do.  Am I correct that we agree on this?
|> 
|> Given the above, I do not understand how know what someone
|> will do equates with forcing them to do it.  

But *knowing (certainty)* what someone will do does imply that
they *will* do it. There is no condition under which they can *not*
do it, including their own will. 

He's not arguing that
    foreknowledge = predestination
he's arguing (correctly) that
    complete foreknowledge => predestination
(that symbol should be read "implies" ratherthan "greater or equal")

|> 
|> The problem may arise from my misdirection in the
|> argument.  Is it your argument that because God
|> knew that if he created man by plan X that they
|> would perform act Y, that God used foreknowldge to
|> create plan X so that man would be predestined to
|> commit act Y.  If so, then I would agree that this
|> is the same as predestination.

Look at it this way. I'm going to get out of this chair
and either turn right or left. It *appears* to me that I'm
deciding which direction to go. But *if* God has certain
foreknowledge that that I will turn right then there are
*no* circumstances under which I can turn left. Hence, there
is no choice to be made...I'm predestined to turn right. 

Maybe that doesn't constitute God *forcing* me to turn right,
but it does amount to predestination and eliminate any real
say-so in the matter from me.
|> 
|> However, that is not the way I see it.  But that can
|> wait until we get clear on this point.
|> 
|> |> _please_ don't simply repeat the defintions again.
|> |> -- 
|> |> > Jeff Young <
|> |> > Personal   <               I'm not lost, I'm exploring.
|> |> > opinions   <
|> 
|> -- 
|>      The comments and spelling herein are mine and nobody
|>                      else lays claim to them.
|> ================================================================
|> Lonnie D. Harvel                 |  ldh@eedsp.gatech.edu
|>