From: CX6L@MUSICA.MCGILL.CA (CX6L)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Ethical Dilemna (GURPS Fantasy - LONG)
Date: 25 Jan 93 19:48:45 GMT
Organization: McGill University

In article <1993Jan25.163738.12451@news.columbia.edu> jhk6@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (John H Kim) writes:
>kerr@csugrad.cs.vt.edu (Shane Kerr) writes:

>>Of course, they slaughtered the naked and untrained worshippers in record
>>time.  They DIDN'T bother to stop the ones who ran away.  So of course the
>>local lord showed up and is a bit upset because somebody just slaughtered
>>all of his peasants.
>>So now they're on the way to see the Baron.  Now, as I see it the law is
>>clear - they're gonna fry.

> I think this is clearly a miscommunication about what the law is.
>In certain times in this world (in the heydey of the Inquisition and the
>Templars) their behavior would be expected and acceptable - and the local
>lord would be in trouble with the church for having vile demon-worshippers
>on his lands.                                                           he

/and/

>If you, as GM, did not explain to the player how the Templars in th    is
>world are different from the Templars in our world (who very likely would
>have killed the crowd - although probably by burning rather than the
>sword                                                                  d

Here is a very good point, and one that extends beyond the question
originally posted, and beyond just the GURPS Fantasy milieu. A great
deal of the time, *players* impose their "enlightened" and evolved
20th-Century values and ethics on their *PCs*, who are often (but
especially in fantasy worlds) from a very different background and
who would have, in any well-run game, a very different system of
ethics and values. This is especially true of a game with any kind
of historical component.
     This is roughly the equivalent of someone from North America
going into a Muslim state and shooting off their mouth about the way
Islam views women, while chugging a beer. Perhaps that person feels
"right" about their actions, but in that country, they are **wrong**,
and if they get whipped, they had it coming. Imposition of one's own
values upon a culture where they just are not accepted is wrong.
     Similarly, in a RPG, especially a FRPG, where there is a culture
in the campaign which has values that no "socially-acceptable" North
American of this century could condone, the players must learn to
avoid using their own ethics to make judgements, especially if their
PC is meant to be a part of that culture. This holds most strongly
in historical or cross-cultural realistic games, but also applies
to fantasy games with different races and unusual religious beliefs,
and to space games with aliens.
     In the case which originally began this thread, we have a group
of people who possess both social rank and a religious investiture
in the Christian Church killing peasant pagans in the context of a
Medieval-Earth *flavoured* society: GURPS' Yrth. Now keep in mind
that the Christians of Yrth descended from Crusaders of the 12th
century, and specifically, the PCs included a Templar knight and
a Jesuit. (Ignoring the real-life unlikeliness of such a meeting).
The Christian Church, as late as the 18th century, turned a blind eye
to the burning of witches. Up until the 15th century, they promoted
the burning of heretics. Not to mention that they were the creators
of the Inquisition . . . Now we have PCs who support this kind of
thing, in a world which has these kinds of beliefs, and in which,
furthermore, it is demonstrable that not only does magic exist, and
work, but that necromancy works, too: and the summoning of demons
is possible.
    So *of course* the PCs attacked the pagans! In the real world,
a Templar would have done this sort of thing; and while a real world
Templar may be less bloodthirsty, he merely *suspects* the Powers of
Darkness are real: while an Yrth Templar *knows* they are, and may
have even received special training in how to deal with demons and
undead. Why would the Yrth Templar hold off? If the ritual went
through, and a demon was called forth, his band probably could not
have stopped it, and would have to run: leaving a demon to destroy
the countryside and the peasants free to do so another time. So he
kills them. By our 20th-Century standards this is a heinous crime,
but in the milieu, it is a perfectly reasonable response.
    Also, if the Templar is a true knight, and the sheriff is a
real sheriff, then it's their word against that of a band of
hung-over and uneducated peasants in the morning. In an essentially
Medieval society, the living peasants would be flayed or burned for
witchcraft by their own lord, lest the onlooking Templar or Jesuit
feel he sympathizes with the Powers of Darkness!
     In conclusion, while by *our* standards, the PCs acted in a
horribly ugly and despicable manner, they were acting in a way
which would be acceptable in their society, and it would have been
poor roleplaying on the part of the players to have done otherwise.
They do not deserve penalties. If the GM feels that he cannot take
this level of realism in roleplaying, then he should not run games
where it is bound to come up.
     As an aside, I run a campaign where the characters are a dark
and deadly necromancer, a greedy and heartless merchant, a totally
mad heretic, a human-sacrificing priestess, a professional assassin
and a bloodthirsty mercenary scumbag. All actively use or condone
necromancy, and all are branded evil outlaws. They are party to a
plot to destroy Mankind. Yet these players are my friends, and
would never do such things in real life. They are just roleplaying
well, and none of us impose our values on the game. It's still fun :)
-Kromm

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