HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: t9014143@phillip.edu.au
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
Subject: Re: Senna in 1993
Date: 19 Aug 92 20:22:55 GMT
Organization: RMIT (Bundoora Campus)

In article <1992Aug17.193109.29980@aio.jsc.nasa.gov>, spenser@fudd.jsc.nasa.gov (S. Spenser Aden) writes:
> In article <Bt54Az.7u4@apollo.hp.com> johnf@apollo.hp.com (John Francis) writes:
>>In article <93845@bu.edu> nicos@cs.bu.edu (Nicos Kontopoulos) writes:
>>>Where did you people hear that Senna said he'd drive for Williams
>>>for free?
>>Spot the subtle distinction:
>>        Senna would drive a Williams for free.
>>                            ^^^^^^^^
>>        Senna won't drive a Ferrari  for $25M.
>>                            ^^^^^^^
> 
> Simply as a matter of support ... I heard the LATTER on the broadcast.  I too 
> would like to know where this driving for free was heard.  I distinctly remember
> the point that Seena would NOT drive Farrari for $25M.
> 
> -Spenser
> -- 


-> Senna had told either Murray Walker or James Hunt at the Hungarian GP that
->he would drive for  Williams for '$23 million less than' Mansell. Apparently
->Mansell wants this sum of money plus preferential treatment if he is to sign
->for next year. 
-> So what Senna was saying is that he would drive for free. 
->Senna still has records to break and championships to win.


		C J
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
From: mchivers@uniwa.uwa.edu.au (Michael Chivers)
Subject: Re: Hungarian GP
Organization: University of Western Australia
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 01:06:36 GMT

tfarmer@datamark.co.nz (Thomas Farmer) writes:

>In article <1992Aug16.224815.29756@sequent.com> dafuller@sequent.com (David Fuller) writes:

>>I wonder if Nige and Gerhard will be speaking.  Berger, for my tastes,
>>tried a little TOO hard to squeeze nige on the two times Nige passed him.

>I would tend to agree with you there. I thought it was interesting
>that Mansell had a better chance of passing Berger than Senna - he
>seemed to have more speed.

Maybe Berger had *less* speed than Senna.

>Amazing to see the *instant* loss of control when Schumachers tail
>went. Wow.

Yes.  Double wow.

Anthony Doig                  | E-Mail : mchivers@uniwa.oz.au
Corporate Systems Development |
Perth, Western Australia      | - When you read this, laugh -
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
From: dafuller@sequent.com (David Fuller)
Subject: Mack McLelland
Organization: Sequent Computer Systems Inc.
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 92 21:49:25 GMT

On Saturday Night Thunder they mentioned that Mack is recovering, though
they couldn't pull off an interview they'd scheduled because the docs found
a blood clot in his leg that needed attention.

Apparently his hands are the major source of concern, because they got 
broken up pretty badly; but the surgeons (no doubt Trammel and crew at
Methodist) feel he will recover full use of his hands after a lengthy
rehab.

Good news.  Mac's wife passed along a message thanking everyone for the
cards and letters; and plead with all drivers to please use arm restraints.

Apparently, the current crop from Simpson has some problems but a new 
model will help solve the problem.  Jim Keeker broke his wrist last weekend
at Lawrenceburg after his restraints broke during a particularly nasty
crash (he punched it on the start, the car wheelied, came down, nosed over,
and sailed side by side over the fence.  Jim's got massive redeye but
he'll be OK).

-- 
Dave Fuller		 	All opinions expressed are my own and not
Sequent Computer Systems	those of Sequent Computer Systems, Inc.
dafuller@sequent.com
From: danjones@pyrps5.eng.pyramid.com (Dan Jones)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
Subject: Re: Mazdas @ Bonneville
Date: 14 Aug 92 23:40:50 GMT
Organization: Pyramid Technology Corporation, Mountain View

Shane Roach writes:

>> What I'd like to see them also do at Bonneville to put to rest some of
>> the debates that have appeared in r.a.s. in the past:
>> Make runs in the following vehicles:
>> 
>> - A current Lola/ChevB (C?) or Lola/Ford XB or Penske/Chev Indycar
>> - A McLaren/Honda or Williams/Renault F1 car
>> - A Jaguar XJR14 or Toyota Eagle MkIII IMSA GTP
>> - An unrestricted, dropped rear deck spoiler NASCAR Ford or Chev
>> - Anything else??
>> 
> 
>Hmm, how's about we throw a Lola-Buick in for good measure with the other
>IndyCars?  And clean them all up aerodynamically by tossing out the brake
>scoops and mirrors, use flush-face wheels, and put a Lexan bubble over the
>cockpit and toss the roll hoop.  Is it possible that the front tires could
>kick up enough salt to clog the radiators on the open-wheelers?
>
>While we're playing with the sports prototypes, bring a Sauber-Mercedes C11,
>run at whatever weight they please, and a Peugeot 905.  Then maybe we'll see
>what the 3.5 l sportscars might have done at Le Mans with the real Mulsanne, 
>and if they'd beat the old unlimited turbo cars.

And don't leave out the most awesome road racing car of alltime, Mark Donohue's 
'73 Porsche 917/30.  It would be best to run it in the pre-'73 race season 
bodywork (low downforce).  This car did 247 mph or something like that at 
Paul Richard in pre-season testing that year.

And what was the fastest speed ever turned at LeMans?  I'm thinking that a 
Rondel (sp?) got into the low 250's at one point.

Dan Jones
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
From: roberts@syacus.acus.oz.au (Robert Salier)
Subject: Re: F1 tires and teams
Organization: ACUS Australian Centre for Unisys Software, Sydney
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 22:50:37 GMT

zlsiida@fs1.mcc.ac.uk (dave budd) writes:

>>Do all the other teams not having an on board camera have to carry some sort of
>>a ballast to compensate for the weight??
>Anybody know what they weigh?  The subbuteo football final cameras were so 
>tiny they must have been about 50gm

The cars not fitted with cameras do have to carry a balast equal to the weight
of the camera - which with transmitting gear I think is around 5lb, or
2.5kg (??).  The football ones could probably run with much less transmitting
power.


Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
From: jeff@pangea.Stanford.EDU (Jeff Freymueller)
Subject: Re: McLaren's newfound speed
Organization: Stanford Univ. Earth Sciences
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 19:24:41 GMT

In article <1992Aug20.030341.20824@bmerh85.bnr.ca> myhui@bnr.ca (Michael Hui) writes:
>In article <1992Aug20.005537.2227@morrow.stanford.edu> jeff@pangea.Stanford.EDU (Jeff Freymueller) writes:
>>that Senna's car setup was the best for getting a lot of speed out of the
>>only corner that really mattered.
>
>There's something illogical here. If the FW14 chassis is so good, then
>it should generate better cornering force than the whole field given the
>same rear wing setting. So I then extrapolate that the FW14's wing setting
>should be less than everyone else's and still be equal to them all in
>the small radius twisties. So I then further extrapolate that even if
>the Renault engine is equal in power to the Honda, at the end of the
>straight Team Willy's pride and joy (what joy? he never smiles) should
>definitely be ahead of Team McLaren's pride and joy.
>
>Since none of the above happened, I can only conclude that the FW14
>was running far too much wing to be optimal for the course.
>
>Michael MY Hui  myhui@bnr.ca  Ottawa Canada

My suggestion was that Senna probably set his car up specifically to be very
fast out of the last corner, at the expense of speed everywhere else on
the track. For most of the race, he was probably the slowest car in the
top 6, except that nobody could pass because Senna is so good at not being
passed and because Hungaroring is such a stupid track with only one place
to pass. Yes I know that Hakkinen and Berger both made passes elsewhere,
but those were due to traffic (Hakkinen passing Brundle) and driver error
(Berger passing Mansell) - at least it looked to me like Mansell just
messed up the corner.

Jeff


Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
From: rsm@doe.carleton.ca (Raul San Martin)
Subject: Re: Winning F1 at Hungary
Organization: Dept. of Electronics, Carleton University
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 18:31:51 GMT

In <61Oj03iv62qN00@amdahl.uts.amdahl.com> nxn@uts.amdahl.com (David J. Nixon) writes:
>onto the straight. To get by Senna, Mansell has to take the last corner
>almost perfectly, while timing his move to be as close behind Senna at
>the turn exit as possible. On the few real attempts he made, he didn't
>get it close enough. Has anyone ever passed Senna down the front straight
>at Hungaroring?

Well, there was that exciting dispute between Senna and Piquet a few years
ago. I can't remember precisely but I think it was Piquet in front and
Senna chasing him on the Lotus. Anyone remembers?

RSM.
From: rik@hplb.hpl.hp.com (Richard Beckett)
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 08:15:45 GMT
Subject: Re: McLaren's newfound speed
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Labs, Bristol, UK
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
Reply-To: rik@hplb.hpl.hp.com


In article <1992Aug20.161324.7776@rdg.dec.com>,
winalski@adserv.enet.dec.com (Paul S. Winalski) writes:
|> 
|> 
|> |> at the end of the
|> |>straight Team Willy's pride and joy (what joy? he never smiles) should
|> |>definitely be ahead of Team McLaren's pride and joy.
|> 
|> When you're a paraplegic in constant pain due to a broken spine, it's
hard to
|> find much to smile about.
|> 
|> --PSW

	Couldn't have put it better myself.


	Cheers,


		RIK


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rik O'Chet, Bristol, England.		
Email: rik@hplb.hpl.hp.com		One's never alone with a Rubber Duck !
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
From: lms@rle-vlsi.mit.edu (Luis Miguel Silveira)
Subject: Re: Driver-owned teams; are they the best?
Reply-To: lms@rle-vlsi.mit.edu
Organization: Research Laboratory of Electronics, Massachusetts Institute of
	Technology
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 05:46:58 GMT



Also just remembered John Surtees one of the few men to be succesfull
in 2 and four wheels (World Champion in both)...  I do not know for
how long he run his own cars before becoming a full-time team manager.

-Miguel
--
=============================================================================
Luis Miguel Silveira                            e-mail : lms@rle-vlsi.mit.edu
=============================================================================
Research Laboratory for Electronics  -  Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Room 36-893, 77 Massachusetts Ave,                      Phone: (617)-253-7307
Cambridge MA 02139                                      Fax:   (617)-258-7864
=============================================================================
also affiliated with:
INESC - Instituto de Engenharia de Sistemas e Computadores
Av. Alves Redol, 9-3o, 1000 Lisboa, PORTUGAL           Phone: (351)-1-3100288
=============================================================================
From: gbg@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (gerald.b.green)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
Subject: Re: Rahal Rumor
Date: 12 Aug 92 17:03:20 GMT
Article-I.D.: cbnewsl.1992Aug12.170320.2669
Distribution: usa
Organization: AT&T

In article <1992Aug12.015751.15184@newsance.att.com> rcpilz@newsance.att.com (Robert C. Pilz;660-4694;TTCOM03) writes:
>I don't think Bobby Rahal will be buying Truesport. He already is part
>owner of his current racing team Patrick Racing. 
>According to a conversation I had with Bobby's mother, the move to buy
>into Patrick racing was so that he could get the supply of Chevy engines.
>What has hurt Bobby in the past few years has been lack of horsepower.
>The Judd engine was a disaster for him.

Huh? Rahal had Chevy engines at Galles/Kraco. He left Truesports for
Galles/Kraco to get the Chevy. Reports were that he left Galles/Kraco
because he didn't like having a two car team.

>                                        I don't think he'll be racing
>with a Honda engine unless they have something that will "blow the
>doors off" the most recent Chevy and Ford systems.
>	.
>	.
>	.
>
>R. C. Pilz
>AT&T IMS
>Maitland, FL
>attmail!rcpilz

Gerry Green
UNIX System Laboratories
gerry@usl.com
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
From: mcculley@racy.zko.dec.com (Bruce McCulley)
Subject: Re: ABS on F1 cars?
Reply-To: mcculley@racy.zko.dec.com (Bruce McCulley)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1992 03:11:10 GMT


In article <1992Aug10.181156.25803@nwra.com>, mark@nwra.com (Mark) writes:
 
|> Imagine that the technology is available to determine roadspeed with
|> some sensor that doesn't depend on any of the wheels. 

Don't have to imagine, I know it exists.

Of course, if there are constraints on size, weight, cost, etc. that 
flip answer won't be quite as quick :-)

But, seriously, that part is not a problem.

|> Tests could be performed to deterimine the optimum slip rate for best 
|> braking - maybe something like 10%.

Here is a part of the problem.

Tires develop maximum adhesion at some optimum slip amount (10% is not a
poor approximation of the order of magnitude, either).

But that slip amount is a vector sum including components in any direction 
relative to the contact patch.  So if we try to optimize the slip at 12% or
so, we have to be able to include lateral components along with our braking
force in computing the modulation of the hydraulics.  Worse, we can't solve
this problem by just measuring slip direction as well as rate with that sensor 
(the one I saw can in fact measure both) because we also have to consider the
steering angle of the front wheels, and maybe vehicle yaw.

Even worse, that optimum value for slip actually includes a three-dimension
effect in a way.  That is, camber affects it as well.  So now we need to have
suspension travel included, both for bump/droop and body roll.

|> {...}
|> The system would rapidly adjust to optimize braking at all four
|> wheels. Finally imagine that all this is light enough for an F1 car
|> and can be developed within the team budgets.

Now that sounds good.  Ideal performance, and in an ideal package.
For a budget no larger than the GNP of a small third-world nation.

 
|> When a driver wanted it, braking would be at least as good as manually
|> controlled braking. Presumably, trail braking would be easier. And,
|> there would be no more flat-spotted tires from locking wheels (major
|> benefit). 

Manually?  I thought handbraking went out of style shortly after wire
wheels on F1 cars!  The appropriate term would probably be "pedal 
controlled braking"  :-)

Actually, the one biggest benefit (enough to make me willing to reconsider
my skepticism) is that continuous optimization of braking at all four wheels
would eliminate problems with brake bias (mal)adjustments, especially for
changing conditions.

One enhancement worthy of consideration in the design of such a system would
be provision for continuous measurement of slip angle, and automatic bypass
to full pedal control when slip angle exceeds some nominal threshold (perhaps
90 degrees?).  This provides the capability for the driver to intentionally
lock all four wheels when desired to cope with a spinning car.  The bypass
signal should be latched until manual reset incidentally, so that the wheels
don't automatically unlock for the final phase of the spin...

--bruce
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
From: tlm1@Ra.MsState.Edu (Terry Matula)
Subject: Re: Land Speed Record
Organization: Mississippi State University
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 02:29:59 GMT

gbg@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (gerald.b.green) writes:

>>>Hal Needham's "Budweiser Rocket" probably reached the highest top speed
>>>(reportedly clocked by USAF radar at over 720 MPH)

>I don't remember whether or not Hal did any of the testing in the
>car (I thought he just owned it), but the "record" attempts had
>Stan Barrett (sp?) as the "pilot". This seem eminently more applicable
>than "driver", especially as as he was allegedly (barely) airborn for
>approximately 100-200 yards from the shock wave of breaking the
>the sound barrier. I don't remember if this was ever refuted, but
>I do remember TV pictures of the nosewheel tire tracks disappearing
>and then reappearing down the run a bit.

I'm not disagreeing with you, but just wanted to add a little info.
The speed of sound at sea level is about 742 mph.  It decreases with
altitude until it is about 661 mph at 36,000 feet.

Now, assuming that the speed of sound/altitude relationship is linear.  
(Not true, I know.)  Here would be the speed of sound at various heights: 

   500 ft       741 mph
 1,000 ft       740 mph
 2,000 ft       738 mph
 5,000 ft       731 mph
10,000 ft       720 mph

So, what is the elevation of these record attempts?  Also, anybody know the
true speed of sound/altitude relationship?

--
Terry Matula
tlm1@ra.msstate.edu
matula@ee.msstate.edu
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
Subject: Minor formulae
From: ljw@nacjack.gen.nz (Lawrence Wilkinson)
Date: 19 Aug 92 21:31:53 GMT
Organization: Malleus Maleficarum - Nil Mortifi Sine Lucre


pete@minster.york.ac.uk (Pete Fenelon) writes:
 
> Formula Atlantic/Pacific        (US, Aus/NZ)
>
>        1.6l full-blooded racing engines (formerly BDAs, now Toyotas),
>        ground effects, wings, slicks; fast and technically advanced!
>        It's a pity we don't have Atlantic in this country any more; it
>        would certainly make up for our rather technically dull F3.
 
Thanks for the great write-up of formulas/formulae :-)
 
A few comments on Formula Pacific ... Aus dropped it some time back, and
in NZ it is now officially called F-Atlantic.  NZ still allows BDAs
(actually the BDD variant) and they are still competitive, not being as
closely regulated as the Toyotas.
 
F-Atlantic _is_ technically interesting.  Next year should see the
introduction of EFI which will remove those lovely but pesky Webers and
maybe give 260bhp from the BDA.  However you can still have fun with a
Ralt RT4.  I suggest you all push for F-Atlantic in the UK!
 
Aus went for F-Holden, now called F-Brabham, using old F3000 chassis and
Holden V6s, not unlike an Indy Light.  It is sometimes referred to here
as F-Bedford :-)  Perhaps an Aus fan could fill us in on the current
state of the formula.
 
NZ also runs F-Vee (1200cc VW, VW g/box & running gear) and FF1600.
 
If you're going to keep this list updated, you may also want to add F-
Toyota (Japan), a spec chassis with carb 1600cc Toyota, perhaps similar
to F-Forward.
 
Lawrence Wilkinson

============== ljw@nacjack.gen.nz ============== CI$ 72070,3440 ==============
There's nothing so simple that works so well that it can't    --o--      F-Atl
be made to work better by making it more complicated.       []=(_)=[]   TTAGGG
From: glenn@misty.boeing.com (Glenn Cirlincione)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
Subject: Re: history question -- Ontario Motor Speedway
Date: 14 Aug 92 19:40:31 GMT
Organization: Boeing Commercial Airplane BCS Support

Here goes:
I assume it was built primarily for IndyCars who had their first race in 
1970 (last race was 1980).  Qualifying speeds were similar, for example:

Indy                 Ontario
1970  170.22         177.567
1972  195.940        199.004
1978  202.156        199.933

Ontario also ran 200 mile races early in the year beginning in 1973.
1973-5 they were run as two 100 mile races and then 200 mile races from then on.

NASCAR also ran there beginning in 1971 and their last race was also 1980.

I understand land value was the predominent reason for dismantling the track
but if I remember correctly attendance was nothing to rave about.

Also, in 1971 they ran the Questor GP (what is a Questor??) where it was
F-1 vs F-5000.  A majority of the F-1 teams were there.  Unfortunately, the
USAC regulars (like Foyt and BUnser) got rides in some low budget F-5000 cars
and could not really compete.  Mark Donohue was the fastest F-5000 and stayed
with the F-1 boys until mechanical problems slowed his progress.  Granted it
was (if memory serves) early in the year (Feb?) and the Lola they had was 
brand new.  BTW, Mario Andretti won both heats in a Ferrari 312 F-1 car, coming from the middle of the pack in both races.  A Glory Days episode has covered
this race.

Enough rambling.   

Glenn Cirlincione
Boeing Computer Services
(206) 957-5282
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
From: bjilek@convex.com (Brian Jilek)
Subject: Re: F1 Tracks for Passing
Organization: CONVEX Computer Corporation, Richardson, Tx., USA
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 22:20:11 GMT
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

freewill@carson.u.washington.edu (William Kaufman) writes:

>Anyone wondering what an F1 race would have been like on the Cleveland
>airport track? It seems that is more like the kind of track that these
>guys need to pass. Or the Daytona road course, where you have the 
>dicotomy of blazing high speed banked turns alternating with tight
>little infield corners. I bet that would be tough on a driver. Maybe
>the McLarens would do even better, because of all the straights allowing
>them to stay ahead by virtue of speed.  freewill


Cleveland's Burke Airport has two major problems for racing. 1) The course
is very flat and has no landmarks for the driver to setup for a turn under
braking or acceleration. 2) the course also has very high reflective qualities
that make glare a constant problem with sunlight. 
	I would really like to see Formula One at Sears Point Int'l. (sigh)
That's a real road course with plenty of passing room for someone with
F1 experience! Turn 7 and 11 are the best for spectating, actually the whole
course is good for general admission access. 
	High banking is an interesting idea for F1. I can see the engineers
scratching their heads now!


Brian Jilek
Convex Computer Corp.
From: rsv@gdwb.oz.au (Roger Virgo)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
Subject: Re: Sennas $0.00 offer
Date: 18 Aug 92 22:18:18 GMT


No way would Marlboro foot the bill, Williams is a Camel team.

Roger and out.
From: esprit@netcom.com (Alan F. Perry)
Subject: Cheap open wheel racing
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 92 01:40:59 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 
Distribution: usa

Is there any organization or location or formula or whatever where one
can do some cheap open wheel racing?  I have no clue about what kind of
open wheel racing is done in the U.S.

Also, is there any place where relaxed slaloms/autocross is done?
Every event that I have been to is so "professional" that I really
don't feel comfortable since I am really more interested in
practicing than competing at this time.

alan
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
Subject: Re: NASCAR: Clifford Allison
From: adams@spss.com (Steve Adams)
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 14:55:10 GMT
Organization: SPSS Inc.

kvt@willow.mitre.org writes:

>I've read two different things in two different posts.
>Can someone please tell me if Clifford Allison was
>Bobby's son and Davey's brother or was he Donnie's
>son and Davey's cousin?

He was Bobby's son, and Davey's younger brother.  27 years old...

Been a real bad couple of years for the Allison family.  If your religious,
say a prayer for 'em.  They're going to need lots of support....

 -Steve
--
 The opinions expressed above are those of the author and not SPSS, Inc.
                        -------------------
     adams@spss.com                           Phone: (312) 329-3522
     Steve Adams                              Fax:   (312) 329-3558