From: jeffh@nonsuch.EBay.Sun.COM (Jeff Huntington)
Newsgroups: rec.boats
Subject: Re: A social problem
Date: 20 Nov 1992 01:57:01 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Distribution: world
Reply-To: jeffh@nonsuch.EBay.Sun.COM
NNTP-Posting-Host: nonsuch.ebay.sun.com

In article 41y@news.cso.uiuc.edu, andy@hendrix.ece.uiuc.edu (Andy Bereson) writes:
> In article <2670163@hplvec.LVLD.HP.COM>, bsmith@hplvec.LVLD.HP.COM (Brian Smith) writes:
> |> In rec.boats, jfh@cs.brown.edu (John F. Hughes) writes:
> |> 
> |>     Any suggestions? Any ideas *why* these people cannot imagine a healthy woman
> |>     in her 30's rowing a boat?
> |> 
> |> Please, John, don't make a social issue out of this in the boating
> |> world.  There is already too much hate going around as one group of
> |> people snaps and snarls at other groups in situations that *usually*
> |> do not warrant it.
> |> 
> |> Yes, there are some people out there who still believe that a woman
> |> can't do (insert your favourite item here...).  But most of the people
> |> who say things like that are just trying to be friendly and looking
> |> for something that they can break the ice with.  It's just another way
> |> of saying "What a wonderful day."  They make a *what is intended to be
> |> a harmless joke* and their expectation is that you will just smile and
> |> wave.  Ships that pass: a pleasantry made.  That's all it is.  
> |> 
> |> If you make an issue of it by making some smart answer that is
> |> intended to teach them a lesson, you will not have achieved nothing,
> |> you will have achieved a negative affect.  If they are leather necks,
> |> nothing you say will make them change their minds; if they are not,
> |> you will spoil their day and they will wonder why.
> |> 
> 
> This ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ is a
> fine example of the sexist attitudes that the original post was trying
> to do his share to eliminate.  It is the same attitude that leads to
> debacles such as the hill-thomas affair.  
> 
> Sexism is so ingrained into most people by the time time they are old
> enough to handle a boat that they simply don't understand how their
> attitudes may be offensive.  Certainly many people (the author of the
> above article included, I presume) simply don't understand teh scope or
> root of the problematic attitude.  Such people could well benefit by
> some appropriate response which could help deepen their understanding.
> 
> I, myself, have, on several occasions, inadvertantly offended someone.
> I meant nothing harmful, but I didn't understand their perspective.  By
> being told how I have erred, I can both avoid making the same error in
> the future, and can also, possibly, understand the underlying problem.
> 
> If we continue to base our social interactions, particularly those with
> people we don't even know, on a subservient status for women, then this
> social hierarchy will continue to influence how we treat and perceive
> women.
> 
> --
> Andy Bereson           bereson@cs.uiuc.edu          (217)244-3617
> 
>   "Creatures inveterately wrong in their inductions have a pathetic
> but praiseworthy tendency to die before reproducing their kind" -Quine

This thread has gone quite a bit far afield for rec.boats; I am not sure it 
belongs here any more.  But, since it is here, let me put on my nomex foul 
weather gear and get ready for the fire storm.  :-)

Lighten Up!  This society's current obsession with sexism is getting in the way
of far too many people feeling good about themself and enjoying life.  When
people go around with a chip on their shoulder looking for things that they 
can cite as examples of something they think should upset them, they have lost
some of the joy in living.

If I read this posting correctly, the fact that someone comments about a woman 
rowing a boat and the man going along for the ride somehow puts the woman in
a subservient position.  Does this imply that it is subservient for someone
to ride?  I doubt if the galley slaves felt that way!  :-)

From my experience, most women want to (and do) ride most of the time.  On the
other hand, few women that are around boats have never rowed.  I seriously 
doubt if anything other than good-natured humor is intended by a comment about 
a woman ferrying a man around.  The fact that offense was taken says something
about the outlook of the people involved.  As far as being concerned about what
someone else might consider offensive, one can't be responsible for someone elses
feelings.  People come from all kinds of places emotionally, and if one gets very
concerned about how someone else is going to feel about something, they eventually
loose track of how they feel about things themselves.

I feel that men and women are different, and I am glad of it.  Women look differnet
than men, and think differently than men.  Rather than try to surpress or deny these
differences, why not try to understand them so that they can be used for 
mutual benefit?  The bottom line is, peopel (regardless of sex) should be able 
to do what they want and have the ability to do. It is just as wrong to say a 
woman can't row because she is a woman as it is to say that she must row to prove
that she is equal to a man.

A little personal antidote (I am not sure how it applies).

When my wife and I were racing dinghys, I wanted her to be the skipper.  The reasons
for this were that she weighs half of what I do, so it would be better to have
my weight forward, and I could hike out harder.  Besides that, I am somewhat stronger
(but not nearly twice as strong) :-)  and so I could do the hard work of crew better.
Also, as skipper, she would be watching the sails (particularly going to weather) so 
I could pay more attention to the tactical situation (which she was not much 
interested in doing).  In spite of all of these good reasons for her being the 
skipper, she didn't want to do it - so she didn't.  The point is that it would have
been just as wrong for her to have skippered to prove that she was equal to a man as 
it would have been for me to skipper because I was a man.  Beyond that, it would have
been of no consequence what anyone said in either case; we could take any comments
good naturedly because we knew where we were coming from.

On the other hand, my older daughter has been struggling with this equality thing
for years.  However, as she is getting older and more secure with herself and who
she is, she is learning to accept things without feeling threatened - and is enjoying
life a lot more.

So, let's try to understand and celebrate the differences between the sexes instead
of trying to deny they exist.  A woman or man should be able to do (or attempt)
what ever they want without feeling either that they can't do somehting, or must
do something because of their sex.

Jeff Huntington

>