From: dpeders1@cc.swarthmore.edu (Daniel Pedersen)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Response to Rob Strom and Introduction
Date: 13 Apr 92 05:09:30 GMT
Reply-To: dpeders1@cc.swarthmore.edu (Daniel Pedersen)
Distribution: alt
Organization: Swarthmore College

btiffany@pbs.org writes:


I don't have any quotes at my fingertips as Bruce seems to have, so I'm
going to defer the question of "on whose authority does Rabbinic Judaism bse
it's claim?" to people who know more than I do.

However, I can and will continue the two issues that I was responding to:

1. that sacrifices are central to Judaism
2. That it ios a Jewish concept that sin can be transferred from one person
to another, and that someone can  atone for someone else's sins

I said:
> 
> >[In] Judaism, the concept of sin is a private one, and does not lend itself (if
> >you'll pardon the pun) to analogies with bank accounts where Jesus can
> >transfer others' sins to his account.
> 
> [...]
> ?  It also says in Psalm 49:7-9:  "No man can by any means redeem his
> brother, or give to God a ransom for him -- for the redemption of his soul
> is costly, and he should cease trying forever -- that he should live on
> eternally; that he should not see the pit."
> 
If you interpret the psalm this way, then it proves my point.  Since "No man 
can ... redeem his brother, or give his ransom," only an individual can 
atone for his own sins.  No one else can do this.

> deeds are like a filthy garment ..." (Isaiah 64:6).  Again, Isaiah 59:2
> says: "But your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God,
> and your sins have hid His face from you, so that He does not hear."  What
> is the result?  According to Ezekiel 18:4, THE SOUL WHO SINS WILL DIE.
> 
> Now, just when did Adonai change His mind, and say sin isn't so bad any more,
> it's just a private matter betwen men, and doesn't affect one's relationship
> with God?

I didn't say that sin is seen only as a private matter between men.  I said
(see above) that sin is a private matter, and no other man can become
involved in it.  as part of the process of Teshuvah, man (and woman) must
come to terms with God as well, but the important part that is stressed is
the social aspect of unresolved conflicts between members of the community.
Judaism sees a sin against a fellow man as a sin against God as well.
Until the sin is resolved between the people, then it is not resolved with
god, either.

So where is the basis for the claim that it is a Jewish concept that sin can
be transferred?

Isaiah is referring to the people who bring false sacrifices to the Temple,
who think that the sacrifice alone, without the process of Teshuvah, can
atone for the sins.  Isaiah says that such sacrifices are worthless.  He is
not saying that this is a permanent state of being for humans.  In the
preceding chapter (Isaiah 58) the prophet rails against the practice of
fasting with no accompanying repentance (Vs 8): 

"Is this the fast day that I
would choose?. . .Is this what you would call a fast, and a day acceptable
to God?  This is the fast that I choose: loose the bonds of evil adnd loosen
the yoke, let the oppressed go free and to break every yoke.  to share your
bread with the hungry, and bring the homeless poor into your house; if you
see a naked man, you shall clothe him, and not to ignore your own flesh."
[Then what happens?]
Then your light will spring forth as the dawn, and your healing will sprout
quickly; your righteousness will go before you, and the honor of God will
follow you. __And You Will Call And God Will Answer; You Will Pleaad and He
Will Say 'I Am Here'; if you will remove from yourself opression and the
pointing of the finger and the speaking of evil"
And later on, the true repenter will have his bones strengthened and he will
become as a garden full of water, the ultimate blessing in arid Israel.

So what is the measure of repentance from sin for Isaiah?  Not sacrifices,
not transfer of sin, but committing good deeds for the people who are more
unfortunate than you.

>  He said in Leviticus 17:11 that it is the blood that makes
> atonement.  When did God change that?  Since when does saying "I'm sorry"
> satisfy the Lord's justice?
> 
Here (in Isaiah) we just saw that blood and fasting cannot atone for sins;
it must be accompanied by social acts of kindness and repentance.

> >> Don't forget that the first three commandments (Deut. 5:6-15) deal with
> >> direct responcibility to God, not to other people. You can't get your
> >> sins against God forgiven without a sacrifice. What you say above, is
> >> not based on Tanach.
> > 
> >That's true; it's not based _entirely_ upon the Tanach.  But Judasim is not
> >based entirely on the Tanach.  there are many layers of interpretations
> >(Mishnah, Gemarah, Shulchan 'Aruch, commentaries, Shu"t =questions and
> >answers, and so on and so forth. . .) that have aquired the weight of law,
> >and sometimes supersede or reinterpret the Tanach.  So you cannot say that
> >if something is not based on Tanach, then it is not Jewish.
> 
> Thus, the word of the rabbis supersedes the Word of God.  Rightly did Yeshua
> say to the P'rushim (Mark 7:13), "With your tradition which you had handed
> down to you, you nullify the Word of God!"  And again, in Matthew 15:6-9
> He quotes Isaiah 29:13, saying
> 
> 	By your tradition you make null and void the word of God!  You
> 	hyprocrites!  Yesha'yahu was right when he prophesied about you,
> 	"These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far
> 	away from me.  Their worship of me is useless, because they teach
> 	man-made rules as if they were doctrines."

Yes.  But Isaiah is talking about those who say one thing and think another,
who perform false sacrifices and fasts, while ignoring the more important
social laws protecting the weak. 

The interpretation of the Tanach is in order to adapt the word of God, given
however many thousands of years ago, to modern day life, be it in the 20th
century or in 2nd Temple Israel.  The interpretation given by Jesus was just
one of many that were offered; some people followed them, some didn't.
Since I do not accept the divinity of Jesus (nor do I want to), I don't give
his interpretation precedence over others'.  I'll bet that you too follow 
man-made rules as doctrines, unless you follow every one of the 
tarya"g Mitzvot in the Tanach to the letter.

> 		Bruce Tiffany


-->Daniel Pedersen  -  Keren's Daddy

	dpeders1@cc.swarthmore.edu	pedersen@engin.swarthmore.edu
======================================================================
Highway sign on I-10, AZ: "Federal Prison - Do Not Pick Up Hitch-Hikers"
	50 yards later: "Campground	Next Right"

"Why do you kill people?"   -   "I am a terminator."  [Terminator 2]
======================================================================