From: backon@vms.huji.ac.il
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: american opinion
Date: 30 Dec 92 09:28:17 GMT
Distribution: talk,world
Organization: The Hebrew University of Jerusalem

In article <bill.725662121@castor>, bill@cognet.ucla.edu (William M. Eldridge) writes:
> hm@cs.brown.edu (Harry Mamaysky) writes:
>
>>In article <bill.725596124@bcserv>, bill@bcserv.wustl.edu (Eldridge (Bill)) writes:
>>|> >When was the last time you had the privilege of visiting Israel. It is
>>|> >most certainly a democratic Western country. It has all the features
>>|> >of democracy that we have in the U.S. Perhaps the fact that it is an
>>|> >all Jewish country bothers you?
>>|>
>>|> An extremely large population routinely denied suffrage, land ownership,
>>|> and subject to discriminatory curfews is one of the features of
>>|> democracy here?  Perhaps thirty years ago this was somewhat still
>>|> true, but now it's very inaccurate.  And perhaps you should clue
>>|> yourself in that Israel is not an "all Jewish country."  Your
>>|> leanings are way out in front, aren't they?
>
>>Israel has something like 700,000 Arabs who are its citizens. They
>>enjoy all (most - they do not serve in the army and therefore do not
>>have the benefits associated with service. But they do not serve for
>>their own benefit. Some or most do not want to fight against their
>>fellow Arabs) of the privileges enjoyed by the Israeli Jews. I have
>>seen how they live - and they certainly would be among the top 5% of
>>well off Arabs in the world.
>
>>The Palestinians, on the other hand, have never wanted to be Israeli
>>citizens.
>>... . It is hardly fair to insist that Israel
>>denies citizenship to people who do not want to be its citizens.
>
> Israeli Arabs are among the 5% at the top, but those pesky Palestinians
> just don't want to join the success.  Any idea why?  Are the Palestinians
> of different heritage than the Israeli Arabs?

> So Palestinians in Israel (the West Bank, which Israel claims) are
> given no voting rights despite having resided in the territory for
> umpteen generations, but this is comparable to western democracy.

For an analogy:  Is Switzerland a democratic country ? Yes, but you can be born
in Switzerland, your father can be born in Switzerland, and your grandfather
can be born in Switzerland, but that DOESN'T necessarily mean that *you*
automatically get Swiss citizenship.

Is the United States a democratic country ? Yet to get US citizenship, you
must:

a) reside in the US for 5 years without any criminal activity;
b) pass a citizenship exam;
c) swear an oath of allegiance to uphold the Constitution of the United States
   of America.

Needless to say, during the first 5 year period although the person does NOT
have the right to vote in elections, he *does* have the obligation to pay his
taxes (and when there still the military draft) be conscripted into the army.
Not very *democratic*   !  What were you saying about comparisons with western
democracies ? And don't forget that persons requesting citizenship in these
western democracies are peaceful, law-abiding individuals. This is NOT the case
with the *territories* on the West Bank  and Gaza where violence, mayhem, and
murder are a daily occurence. Nice law-abiding citizens :-)  :-)

> Also, I would love to know how easy it is for an Arab to buy prime
> real estate in downtown Tel Aviv.

Actually downtown Tel Aviv is a dump. But I guess you never ate at Ahmad &
Salim Restaurant in the very fashionable north Tel Aviv. And I wouldn't
exactly say that Ahmad and Salim are typical Jewish Israeli names :-)  By the
way, an Israeli Arab steel producer *did* recently purchase some prime real
estate in Tel Aviv.

> Israel has understood demographics very well in its dealings with
> the Arab population, which is how an Arab population got a Jewish
> minority state foisted upon it in the first place.
>
>>By the way, the Arab representation in the Knesset is (percentage
>>wise) far more reflective of the demographics of the country than,
>>say, the black representation in the American Congress. In fact, the
>>Arab vote represents a major voice during all Israeli elections.
>
> Get real.  Blacks have major representation in the American Congress,

Let's see. Blacks are about 12% of the American population so they *should*
have 12% of members of congress (43 congressmen out of 535). Funny, I thought
the Black Caucus in congress was MUCH smaller. In Israel, Arabs make up around
17% of the population. Apart from having two parties in the Israeli Knesset,
they make up a majority of the HADASH (communist) party, and there are Israeli
Arabs who are Knesset members in the Labor Party, MERETZ, and (I believe) one
or more in the LIKUD. Just for the record, the day after elections, the
newpapers publish the percentage and absolute numbers that each party received,
and this is broken down by city/village, etc. Don't laugh but there *were* a
number of Israeli Arabs  who voted for Kahana (KACH) in 1986 (?) and, more
recently, for MOLEDET and TZOMET.


> especially when you consider that whites enact legislation intended
> to help blacks - a pretty rare occurrence in Israel, when Arab schools
> are often shut down and curfews are imposed on their populations.

Wrong. NOT in Israel (proper) but in the West Bank and Gaza.


> Do you remember Shamir or Rabin fervently seeking a coalition with
> any Arab factions in forming the government?

I really hate to disappoint you but Rabin has the HADASH and two Arab parties
passively supporting his coalition in that they always vote FOR (and not
AGAINST) the government in a NO_CONFIDENCE motion in the Knesset.


> Do you remember them
> offering concessions to Arab leaders, and not just to the more
> soft-hearted Jewish electorate?
>
>>I do not see your claim as valid. Yes, the Palestinian problem must be
>>rectified - and soon. However, insisting that Israel give them Israeli
>>citizenship is probably the last thing the Palestinians really want.
>
>>|> Perhaps you should look at pictures from Iraq or Sarajevo, and then
>>|> give me a definition of "ravaged".  Israel sat tight, and now
>>|> expects to be paid very handsomely for it. (or did - there is a
>>|> question of whether having the loan guarantees now dooms the
>>|> peace process more than any other act).
>
>>Well, what is your point? Yes, Israel was very patient.
>
> My point is that Israel was not "ravaged" in the Iraq war.

I see. A few hundred million dollars in damages is not *ravage*. Whole
neighborhoods demolished by SCUD missles is not *ravage*. Interesting.



> This is just trying to blow up the sympathy level for Israel
> to get more money.  Everybody else in the world PAID during that
> war.  Israel feels it deserves a profit.
> (Casualties?  Ten?  Oh my.)

Oh my ! How Christian of you ! But then again, you know how JEWS are when it
comes to profit :-)


> --
> {{{{ bill eldridge           310-206-3960                x                }}}}
> {{{{ bill@cognet.ucla.edu    310-206-3987 fax           xxx              }}}}
> {{{{ ~more, ~better, ~faster [80's motto]                x              }}}}
> {{{{ ~hot, ~toxic, and ~shallow [90's motto]                              }}}}


Josh
backon@VMS.HUJI.AC.IL


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