From: gazit@duke.cs.duke.edu (Hillel Gazit)
Newsgroups: alt.feminism,soc.men,soc.women
Subject: Re: Living in a State of Siege
Date: 21 Dec 92 08:09:36 GMT
Reply-To: gazit@cs.duke.edu (Hillel)
Followup-To: soc.men
Organization: The Scorpions Nest

In article <JULIE.92Dec20133642@cucbs.chem.columbia.edu> 
julie@cucbs.chem.columbia.edu (Julie Wright) writes:

>	{ NOTE:  This version was also deemed unsuitable for soc.feminism }

What a surprise...

>"many or most white men" didn't understand this fear.  She was going on
>what _men_ had told her about how _they_ feel comfortable behaving.  

Don't you see any problem with this generalization?

E.g. do you assume that the men felt that they could trust her enough 
to tell the truth?

>>Feminists like these act as though they don't have any idea of the
>>extent to which violence commands a man's attention and forms his upbringing.

>Hell, most MEN don't seem to have any idea of this either, wouldn't you
>say?  

We tend not to share the bad experiences, but it does not mean that
we have no idea about our lives.

>If you expect more from feminists than from the general population in
>recognizing injustices of gender roles, that seems perfectly fair to me,
>but I do think you may be so angry by now that you're blowing up at
>people who may be missing things at times, but are open to your ideas 
>and arguments when they are exposed to them.

Feminists (like most people who read newspaper) know that men are much
more often victims of violent crimes (murder included).  Feminists also
push for a federal law that will give stiffer penalties for crimes 
against women.

I see a contradiction between these two facts and your bottom line.
(IMO most feminists care mainly about injustice toward women.)

>serious problems (or are themselves serious problems).  However, in day-
>to-day life, which is what Karen was talking about, the majority of _men_
>(not boys) _I_ know are past worrying about circumcision or elementary school
>bullying; 

Open sometime a text book in Psychology 101 and read about the
importance of childhood experiences on the creation of the personality.

>>Over 90% of those killed on the job in the United States are men.
>>But at least they aren't victims of sexual harassment.

>See b) above.

>Uh, you never explained why this was rejected from soc.feminism this time...

Do you think that the soc.feminism.censors want to publish
anti feminist data?!

>>If he gets assaulted on the way to the car, he just stays quiet about it
>>because BOYS DON'T CRY, dammit, and what?  Didn't you fight back?  What a
>>wimp.

>But how can we know about these fears if men won't tell us?  

Who was the most popular boy in your high school?  The Macho
guy or the weak boy?

Why men will tell you about their fears if they have a very good
reason to assume that you (a generic woman) prefer Macho guys?

>I don't know; maybe they're lying because they're afraid to admit their
>fears to me or to themselves.  (I'm not being sarcastic.)  If you believe
>this, what do you think I can do about it without being patronizing?  

If every now and then they show some fear let them feel that you
don't hold that against them.                

>by violence, I believe you feel that way, but until I hear the men around
>me expressing these sorts of thoughts and see them calling the Escort
>Service at night or going home early so they'll be safe, I'll assume they
>feel safer than I do.  

Or they feel some social pressure against showing how scared they are...

>And when they aren't followed or threatened the
>way I am, I have to assume they're safer behaving the same way I do --
>which is exactly what they conclude, too.

Think about your high school class, how many of the boys are dead?
How many of the girls are dead?  Have the boys been safer than
the girls?

>---Julie

Hillel                                              gazit@cs.duke.edu

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