From: cla04@seq1.keele.ac.uk (A.T. Fear)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.europe
Subject: Re: Scopjian Flag
Date: 17 Nov 92 10:26:03 GMT
Organization: Keele University, England

From article <Bxtvx2.BBp@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, by varnavas@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (varnavas constantine):
 
>>Now while I a
>>given that the modern Greeks
>>are equally unrelated to the ancient Macedonians as the inhabitants of
>>the Republic of Macedonia.
> 
> The majority of historians don't agree with you on this.  Speculations
> that the Macedonians were not Greeks have been refuted in numerous occasions
> on this forum and I am not going to repeat them now. 


I can only think of one historian who takes this position without seeing
problems and he has moved to it recently.  I recommend Borza's In the
Shadow of Olympus which has a copious bibliography and a review of it in
the latest American Journal of Philology.  I have yet to see one cogent
argument to suggest that the ancient Macedonians were Greek. 

> I wonder though, if
> the Macedonians and the Greeks were not related, what happened to the
> ancient Macedonians?  Did they vanish from the face of the earth?

This doesn't seem such a good counter argument.  Is this disappearance
so surprising? It happened to the ancient Etruscans, the Illyrians
(unless the Albanians which is a moot point I think).  After all
Alexander's vainglorious campaigns accounted for vast numbers of them. 
I suspect his impact on Macedonian demography was enormous.  I think
there was an article on this in CQ some years ago I shall try and dig it
out.  them and the loss

> Or did they survive to become today's inhabitants of FY Republic of
> Macedonia?


Apart from the one mad posting, which alas I still haven't seen, I don't
think anyone has suggested this.


>>I wonder if the Macedonia adoption of the
>>flag design was in response to this mass propaganda - I'm afraid I don't
>>know enough about the chronology of this symbol war to come down one way
>>or the other here.  I think I'd like to see Macedonia adopt a different
>>symbol in return for Greece finally stopping her psuedo-historiacal
>>posturing and recognising Macedonia for what it is the republic of
>>Macedonia.
> 
> There is nothing to be bargained here.  This is exactly Gligorov's plan:
> By becoming more aggressive (i.e. by provocating Greece as in the case
> discussed) he is trying to 'bargain' and get something for nothing.
> FY Republic of Macedonia has no right to the name, symbols, or history
> of Macedonia.  Given the fact that the Macedonians were Greeks, Greece
> is the only one who can claim the Macedonian history.

But since they weren't, there does seem to be a great deal to bargain about.
Gligarov is the best hope for Macedonia and it is criminal of Greece to
undermine the chances of his government's success by posturing over pseudohistory.

> 
>>Alternatively both sides could just use the symbol
>>recognising that the fact that they both occupy a land once inhabited by
>>the ancient Macedonians makes this period part of both of their cultural
>>heritages.

I stand by every word of the above
> 
>>The purpose of the sun-burst in its antique setting remains
>>unclear and its design isn't unique by the way, it can be found on Greek
>>coins predating the rise of Macedonia and on vases painted in early
>>Italy - I shall check the precise reference over the next couple of
>>days, in other words althoufgh it *might* have been the emblem of the
>>Macedonia royal house, something yet to be *proved*, it isn't a uniquely
>>Macedonian emblem.  Since the coins come from the far North West of
>>Greece and we know Celts were keen on sun symbols perhaps the sun-burst
>>is celtic inspired. By the arguments above it should then only appear on
>>the Welsh flag! I hope this won't be taken up though as the dragon is
>>much nicer... 
> 
> Your logic puzzles me!  So, because the drawing (or a similar one) of the
> Vergina sun was used before, it is not a symbol of Macedonia.

No I'm not saying that, what I am saying is that it isn't a symbol unique
to ancient Macedonia which has been implied here before now.


> Despite its history, the 
> Vergina sun today is associated with the Macedonian dynasty.  And anybody
> that is using it is trying to associate themselves with ancient Macedonia.

At one level I agree with you, but think the problem runs deeper.  If we
assume that this was the symbol of the Argeads for a moment, then
Greece's use of it in its turn is trying to appropriate this period of
history for its own.  In other words it is a political gesture with
implications in its own right.  I can see why the Macedonians would
dislike this and counter it.  As I said I don't know enough about the
genesis of the symbol war to make a clear statement here.  Why both
sides can't recognise that they both have an interest here and let
things lie I don't know.  As I've said I think it was unwise to adopt
this symbol and still feel perhaps a change with Greek recognition of
the Republic of Macedonia as exactly that would be the best compromise. 
It's going to happen in the end Greece can only win by giving in with
grace instead of making herself look more foolish by the day. 

Andy