From: max@admin.mport.COM (Max)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
Subject: -REAL- Christians dont know god is dead
Date: 26 Jan 93 20:28:25 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Microport Inc., Scotts Valley, CA 95066 US of A

zellner@stsci.edu writes:

>In article <01050133.ohmnd7@distant.uucp>, edw@distant.uucp (Ed Watkeys) writes:

> > Assuming, for the sake of argument, that God says homosexuality is immoral,
> > can you tell us why He says it's immoral? 
[..]
> > If it's because He says so, please tell us *why* He says so.  Now, we have 
> > your *real* reason for thinking that homosexuality is immoral. Unless you 
> > can explain *why* God says homosexuality is immoral, you're making your god 
> > look pretty arbitrary,                                      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

it looks here like ed wants to know why those of us who are not believers
in this god should tolerate gods followers conflict with homosexuality. 

>Of course he's arbitrary.  He's God, and he's not in the slightest accountable
>to us for his laws of good and evil, any more than he is accountable for to us
>for the way he made the universe or the laws of physics.  And we don't "make
>god" anything; he made us, and everything else too.

ben claimes that its not just a belief in god, it "TRUE".

> > or, alternatively, you're making morality beyond human comprehension, which 
> > would make me wonder why we're being held accountable for things that we 
> > can't even begin to comprehend.

>If you mean that God's _motives_ for creating the universe and for making the 
>laws of physics and the laws of good and evil the way he did are ultimately 
>incomprehensible, you are probably correct.  But we don't need to understand 
>his motives.  We only need to understand how his laws affect us.  We can
>understand how the law of gravity affects us, and we know that we can get hurt
>if we ignore it.  Some people like Newton and Einstein _understood_ gravity
>better than other people, but the consequences of violating it are the same 
>for everybody.  Likewise for God's laws of good and evil. 

ah, the cruxt! ben makes a huge mistake in reason: if i dont believe in
gravity, do things fall when i drop them? yes, of course, hell, even a flat
earther can see that! BUT if i dont believe in god, my transgression against
gods laws have no effect on me! no god=no hell! yay!

are you following this ben? god is just a beleif system, not a reflection
of reality (if you believe in that...).

> > You see, the Divine Command theory of morality doesn't work, even to fellow
> > believers. You're going to need to fall back onto some other moral theory.

>If we were talking about a man-made god, your questions would make excellent
>sense.  But Jews, Christians, and Moslims do not worship any such god.  If
>you are looking for some rationality that is more rational than God, or some
>standards of good and evil that are higher than his standards, we specifically
>deny that any such standards exist.  Correction:  HE specifically denies that
>any such standards exist. 

here ben fails to realise that god is man made. if he didnt exist we
would have to...? 

but i guess that THIS is really really the cruxt of the debate. it god ours
or are we his. ho ho. 

actually, i spoke to god the other day, and he said
to me that he was actualy working for the cia, and that he was on our side.

silly me, and i thought he was dead. :-)

> > I'll be looking forward to your *real* justification for condemning
> > homosexuality.

>Homosexuality is no different from any other sin.  It's one of the things that
>humanity is subject to.  Some of us have an inclination that way, a larger 
>number toward illicit heterosexual activity, some toward gluttony, some toward
>drunkenness, some toward gambling, some towards anger or violence, and some 
>towards physical possessions or power over our fellow men.  Some have none of
>those, and are in danger of the even greater sin of pride.  But if we think 
>that discovering such an inclination within us somehow makes it "OK", we mis-
>understand the fundamental conditions of human existence.  Any one of those
>will, apart from God's mercy, keep us eternally out of his blessings.  We may
>dislike that situation bitterly, but that's how it is. 

>Cheers, Ben.

its a funny thing, that the muslims dont drink alcohol, as one would think
that all these gods would have gotten together and formed some kind of
standard. BUT,

if any of the above conditions will keep us out of his blessings, then what
happans if you dont believe in the blessings in the first place? nothing.
unlike the "law" of gravity, when ignored shows no mercy. actually, that is
a point in your gods favor. my gravity god dosent let the slightest
transgression pass. 

but my gravity god skis!

ben, im not trying to be mean, i just tend to hash over ideas like this.
please dont take the above as some sort of personal attack. truth is, i
really have no idea if you believe this, or are just explaning it to ed. 

love,
-max

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ha.