HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: bobv@spike.Jpl.Nasa.Gov (Bob von Buelow)
Subject: Re: baptismal rites for infants in the roman catholic church
Keywords: baptism infants catholic canonlaw
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, CA
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 15:44:47 GMT

(James J Buffer) writes:
>(Bob Smith) writes:
>>Help: need to correspond with canon lawyers about
>>the rite of baptism for infants in catholic church.
>>I can find nothing in the rite or the law that describes
>>a requirement that parents be  married before a child
>>can be baptized in a reqular mass.
>
>There is no mention of the parents' marital status in the relevant canons. 
>Normally, an infant should be baptized in his parents' parish church. Also, 
>there should be a founded hope that the infant will be brought up in the 
>Catholic religion.
>     However, there may be a question of pastoral prudence here. If it is 
>widely known that the child's parents are not married, why not hold the baptism
>privately to preclude possible sandal, gossip, and embarassment? Since I don't 
>know the details or your motive for asking this question, I can only speculate.


Baptism is the rite of admission to the body of Christ, the community of
believers.  It is a public rite, normally to be conducted in the church
building, the where the believers, the church, assembles. Canon 860 says:
1) Apart from a case of necessity, baptism is not to be conferred in private
houses, unless the local Ordinary should for grave reason permit it.
2) ... also prohibits hospitals in normal circumstances.

The appropriate Canon asked about is 868 which says:
1) For an infant to be baptized lawfully it is required:
 1] that the parents, or at least one of them, or the person who lawfully
holds their place, give their consent
 2] that there be a well-founded hope that the child will be brought up
in the catholic religion.  If such hope is truly lacking, the baptism is,
in accordance with the provisions of the particular law, to be deferred and
the parents advised of the reason for this.
2) ... case of danger of death stuff

I agree with Len Horns comments in other posts.  The childs immortal soul
is not in any danger by virtue of deferring baptism.  We do not baptise adults
at the start of a lengthy RCIA program because we are afraid they might die
before receiving the sacrament, and belief that infant baptism will
somehow provide instant salvation for the child is at best uninformed.  Len's
posts go into greater detail on this.  The only "ticket" into heaven is to
follow the great commandments.

Bob


--
Bob von Buelow             Mars Observer Planning and Sequencing Element
bobv@spike.jpl.nasa.gov          - standard disclaimers apply -
From: elendil@seashell.mintir.new-orleans.la.us (Edward J. Branley)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Re: Asylum
Date: 6 Dec 92 13:17:20 GMT
Organization: Seashell Software

"Gordon C. Zaft" <zaft@CARITAS.COTDAZR.ORG> writes:

> On Dec 13,  3:56pm, "John R. Covert 13-Dec-1992 1853" wrote:
> } Subject: Asylum (sanctuary)
> } Is it time for the Church to revive the practice of granting sanctuary?
> }
> } This past week, a priest was convicted in a case involving the blockade
> } of an abortion clinic.  Sentencing will occur in a few weeks, and if past
> } cases are any guide, he will be given a very long sentence, of at least
> } several years.
> }-- End of excerpt from "John R. Covert 13-Dec-1992 1853"
>
> Well, having participated in a rescue myself (though I didn't risk
> arrest) I don't think so.  I think it is better to go to jail... why?
> Because only by that means will others see the evil we are fighting.
>
> Granting asylum would make more sense if we were doing a better job
> of education on the Catholic population.  On the other hand, if we
> were doing that job, we wouldn't have abortion in this country.  As
> has been pointed out, if 25 million (or even 10 million) Catholics went
> out and stood in front of the abortion mills and said "we will not stand
> for this!" it would stop.
>
> GZ
>
> --
> * Gordon Zaft     Argus Consulting  4500 E. Sunrise #N-6, Tucson, AZ 85718
> * zaft@caritas.cotdazr.org | noao.edu!coyote!caritas!zaft
>                  Semper fidelis Christi et Vicarii sui.

More to the point, if 25 million Catholics, along with all of the Protestants
and Jews who claim to believe that abortion is wrong would instill that value
strongly in their children and families, the clinics would close down due to
lack of business.  There are entirely too many wafflers in this country when it
comes to abortion.  It's ok to speak of it in abstract terms, but all too often
things change when it's a family member involved.  At that point, lots of
exceptions to the belief tend to pop up.





|Edward J. Branley         elendil@mintir.new-orleans.la.us|
|Seashell Software, Metairie, LA            +1-504-455-5087|
From: 15942@brahms.udel.edu (Stephen Barr)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Re: Myth exposed!!!
Date: 16 Dec 92 20:07:58 GMT
Organization: University of Delaware


    Thanks Ted, I was hoping a person who knew some French
would help me! That's what I thought it meant. 'Infernal'
can refer to Hell, as in 'stop that infernal noise!' or
as in Dante's Inferno. Gregory was essentially calling them
'those damn trains' in a witty way. Steve.
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Date:         Tue, 15 Dec 1992 08:48:09 EST
From:         "Donald J. Magee" <djm@TRENT.ATT.COM>
Subject:      Re: baptismal rites for infants in the roman catholic church
              "DGPAZ@CLEMSON.CLEMSON.EDU" at Dec 15, 92 8:35 am

>
> >this sacrament is done on behalf of the infant.  The questions,
> >answers, promises, and renouncing is done by the parents on behalf of
> >their kid.  If they do not follow up with the promises made at the
> >time of the baptism, and, therefore, if the promises made by the
> >parents are not true, then I question the validity of the sacrament.
>
> I think this verges on receptionism.
>
> Denis

I think that verges on heresy. :)  That sounds likes sacraments are
not effecacious in and of themselves.  The baptism is of the infant,
not of the parents or sponsors.  If the minister of a sacrament, and
his personal worthyness has nothing to do with the sacramentality of
an act why should the fact that the sponsor failed in the future have
any impact on the nature of the act in the present.  This minimally
assuming that the parents intended to follow through.

That point aside, if I baptize a child, what his parents want does not
have any bearing on whether that child is truely baptized.  It is the
baptism of the child, not the baptism of the child via a proxy.

Don Magee

trent!djm@jolt.att.com
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: bdboyle@erenj.com (Bryan D. Boyle)
Subject: Re: Asylum (sanctuary)
Organization: Exxon Research and Engineering Co., NJ
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 12:53:39 GMT

In article <9212162235.AA33674@chaos.intercon.com> Amanda Walker <amanda@INTERCON.COM> writes:
>"Donald J. Magee" <djm@TRENT.ATT.COM> writes:
>>         Wow, and I thought that my bishop John Cardinal O'Connor was an
>> American.  You learn new things everyday. :)
>
>His citizenship is not the issue.  However, there are civil restrictions on
>holding office if you owe allegience to "foreign powers", regardless of your
>citizenship.  It's called "conflict of interest."
>
>
Give me a break.  The government and people of the united states do not
set the rules for who we look to for spiritual direction and advice, nor
do we pledge fealty to the Pope.  Nor do the bishops, priests,
cardinals, even the Jesuits.  I would dare say that the Church that was
founded by Jesus Christ is a higher authority than whatever corrupt,
venal method of government we have today.  If push came to shove, I
would trust my eternal happiness to the Church rather than our
government.


-- 
Bryan D. Boyle     |Exxon doesn't pay me to voice their opinions...
Senior Engineer    |Semper ubi sub ubi.
bdboyle@erenj.com  |On a clear day, you can see forever on the Net...
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: mjsmith@cac.washington.edu (Martha Smith )
Subject: Re:      Re: Moral Activity (was Re: Asylum)
Organization: UW Computing
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 22:39:46 GMT

In article <921215160006.2020bfba@ASTRO.CS.HH.AB.COM>,         URSIC@ASTRO.CS.HH.AB.COM writes:
|> john ocallaghan <jocallag@DARWIN.HELIOS.ND.EDU> writes:
|> >Do we or do we not have laws prohibiting murder, theft, and rape, all of
|> >which seem to be matters of morality and values.  How do laws designed to
|> >prohibit abortion differ significantly in intention from these laws?
|> 
But remember it is only recently that rape laws have been applied to spousal rape or date rape, yet such actions have always been morally wrong.  And why don't our murder/theft/rape laws apply in time of warfare?  My point is neither in favor nor opposed to laws prohibiting abortion, it is that laws do not solve the problem.  Therefore, we need to consciously decide how best to expend our energy towards stopping abortion and changing the law MAY not be the most effective means.
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Date:         Tue, 15 Dec 1992 14:49:45 -0500
From:         mayo@CS.UTK.EDU
Subject:      "One Bread, One Body", Dec. 16

                    Wednesday, December 16, 1992

Isaiah 45:6-8, 18, 21-25     Psalm 85              Luke 7:18-23

                           THE ONLY ONE

"I am God; there is no other!" --Isaiah 45:22

Does your life and Christmas depend on anyone or anything other than Jesus?
The Lord says: "I am the Lord, there is no other." (Is 45:6, 18, 22)  The
Lord proclaims there is no other god besides Him (Is 45:21).  He says: "There
is no just and saving God but Me" (Is 45:21). The first of the Ten Commandments
 says: "You shall not have other gods besides Me" (Ex 20:3; Dt 5:7). Therefore,
we should pray and live: "Only in God is my soul at rest; from Him comes my
salvation.  He only is my Rock and my Salvation, my Stronghold" (Ps 62:2-3).
Jesus is the only name by which we can be saved (Acts 4:12) and our "only
Master and Lord" (Jude 4).  He is the only Way to the Father (Jn 14:6).
Therefore, we should say: "only in the Lord are just deeds and power"
(Is 45:24).

Many Christians' Christmases depend almost wholly on family, friends, presents,
parties, money, food, or pleasures.  While we thank the Lord for all His gifts,
we don't depend on them, even slightly.  Christmas and life mean Christ (see
Phil 1:21).  If we were like Job, if we lost everything but the Lord, if we
became impoverished and starving, alone and bereaved; we could still have
Christmas because nothing can separate us from Christ's love (Rm 8:35).  Jesus
Christ is our only Need in life.


Prayer:  Father, thank You for loving me so much that You gave Your only Son.
         May I believe in Him and love Him daily.

Promise: "The blind recover their sight, cripples walk, lepers are cured, the
          deaf hear, dead men are raised to life, and the poor have the good
          news preached to them." --Lk 7:22

Praise:  Jesus' name is above cancer, AIDS, sin, and death.
-----
From "One Bread, One Body", reproduced with permission.
Nihil Obstat: Rev. Edward J. Gratsch
Imprimatur:  +Most Rev. James H. Garland, V.G.
              Archdiocese of Cincinnati, August 17, 1992.
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Apparently-To: catholic@american.edu
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Mon, 14 Dec 1992 21:35:40 PST
From:         "John R. Covert 15-Dec-1992 0007" <covert@COVERT.ENET.DEC.COM>
Subject:      Re: Asylum (sanctuary)

>Based on John's recounting of this event, it looks like the Church in Boston
>is very much participating in political activity.  Granted the cause is good
>*this time*, but a prohibition should be a prohibition, lest the Church be
>viewed as hypocritical.

As Jim MacIntosh pointed out, the prohibition is on clergy running for
political office.  However, the Catholic Faith _requires_ us to *not*
follow civil authority when its precepts are contrary to moral order,
fundamental rights of individuals, or teachings of the Gospel.

From the Catechism:  "Les autoritis dans la sociiti civile", "Devoirs
des citoyens" (Duties of citizens):

(2242) Le citoyen est obligi en conscience de ne pas suivre les prescriptions
des autoritis civiles quand ce priceptes sont contraires aux exigences de
l'ordre morale, aux droits fondamentaux des personnes ou aux enseignements
de l'Evangile.  Le _refus_d'obiissance_ aux autoritis civiles, lorsque leurs
exigences sont contraires ` celles de la conscience droite, trouve sa
justification dans la distinction entre le service de Dieu et le service de
la communauti politique.  +Rendez ` Cisar ce que appartient ` Cisar, et `
Dieu ce qui appartient ` Dieu; (Mt 22,21).  +Il faut obiir ` Dieu pluttt
qu'aux hommes; (Ac 5,29).  ...

A few paragraphs later, in a section entitled "La communauti politique et
l'Iglise", we are told that the mission of the Church is to use all means
which conform to the Gospel and are in harmony with the welfare of all, even
in matters concerning the political domain, when the fundamental rights of
the individual or the salvation of souls requires it.  I interpret this to
allow -- possibly even require -- laity and priests to chain themselves
across the entrances of abortion clinics to defend the fundamental right
of the individual to life (paragraph 2270, abortion), but to forbid them
from harming anyone or damaging property.

(2246) Il appartient ` la mission de l'Eglise de +porter un jugement moral,
mjme en des matihres que touchent le domaine politique, quand les droits
fondamentaux de la personne ou le salut des bmes l'exigent, en utilisant
tous les moyens, et ceux-l` seulement, qui sont conformes ` l'Evangile et
en harmonie avec le bien de tous, selon la diversiti des temps et des
situations; (Gaudium et spes 76,5).

/john
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: 98yuwono@cua.edu
Subject: Re: Prayer Request for Flores' Earth quake disaster
Organization: The Catholic University of America
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 19:48:30 GMT

From:	IN%"DGPAZ@CLEMSON.CLEMSON.EDU" 14-DEC-1992 13:34:58.29
Subj:	RE: Prayer Request for Flores' Earth quake disaster


On Mon, 14 Dec 1992 16:21:13 GMT 98yuwono@CUA.EDU said:
> Please pray for the victims of earthquake in the islands of Flores
> (Indonesia). The beautiful Flores islands are predominantly Catholic.

>>Are you suggesting that victims who are not Catholic
>>should not be prayed for?

I never suggested that.  The reason for me to mention it, is just for
the net information only( since I posted this on catholic network), most
people that know where Indonesia is, will know that 90% of the populations
are moslem.  But there are islands in Indonesia where different religion
predominates(e.g. Hindu in Bali, Catholic in Flores and surrounding islands)

but thanks for your prayer anyway, i will never suggest to people what
to pray, Its up to people what they are praying for and to whom.
Personally, when I prayed most of the time i prayed for family and friends,
but does it mean i dont care about anybody else?? (maybe, but I hope not)

thanks for for your suggestion, but i dont think i will follow it.

Leo Yuwono

PS. Glad I didnt go to school in the south, one of my jesuit educated friends
    (a jesuit again bryan :-) mention they still fly the confederate flag
    and have slaves there in 'bama :-)



Standard disclaimer applies...                             
 ==============================================================================
* Leonardus K. Yuwono			   *   	
* Internet: 98yuwono@cuavax.dnet.cua.edu   *  
* Bitnet  : 98yuwono@cua.bitnet            *  
**********************************AMDG**************************************** 
 

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              Thomas_McGinnis@SEGNO.SOAR.CS.CMU.EDU
From:         Thomas McGinnis <tfm+Catholic@CS.CMU.EDU>
Subject:      Re: baptismal rites for infants in the roman catholic church

In article <1707@anagld.analytics.com> bob@anagld.analytics.com writes:
>Help: need to correspond with canon lawyers about
>the rite of baptism for infants in catholic church.
>Specifically, need reading on canon law and rite regarding
>the marital state of parents.
>I can find nothing in the rite or the law that describes
>a requirement that parents be  married before a child
>can be baptized in a reqular mass.
>Help please.
>thanks
>bob smith

 [Hope this isn't old news -- My NNTP server is bogged down, and seems
  to be about 2 days behind right now]

 I'm not a canon lawyer, so I could be wrong, but I don't believe there is
such a requirement*. However, surely you can understand the Church's caution
-- What is the motivation for the baptism of an infant whose parents either
do not see the need to partake of civil (let alone sacramental) marriage, or
cannot have been married due to some impediment (e.g. non-anulled prior
marriage)? What assurance does the Church have that this child will be raised
in the faith, when his parents -- the *primary* teachers of that faith -- are
behaving in a way that flies in the face of it?

 (* More likely: Look for something in the rite or the law that requires
    that one or more of the parents be an upstanding Catholic.)

Pax et Bonum,
Tom.
--
Thomas F. McGinnis                                     tfm+Catholic@cs.cmu.edu
School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA 15213-3891
Any opinions are mine except where noted, and not necessarily those of CMU.
spes mea in Deo                               nunc scripsi totum da mihi potum
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: jbuffer@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (James J Buffer)
Subject: Re: baptismal rites for infants in the roman catholic church
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 03:19:47 GMT

In article <9212132358.AA20773@pegasus.com> Len Howard <tas@PEGASUS.COM> writes
:
>The other possibility is that the couple do not even attend church and
>just want the kid 'sprinkled' as some sort of magic.  I suspect that
>most priests may be reluctant to baptize anyone who is not a child oc
>[that should be of] a communicant.  There is much more to the baptism
>than just the rite itself.  Our priest has said many times that he is
>reluctant to baptize a child of strangers.
This makes sense.
  It gets into the
>commitments made by the parents and godparents.  And as I mentioned
>before, baptism is not just a magical process that somehow changes the
>kid for good without any need for future action by the partents.
I'm a little uncomfortable with the word "magic(al)." Regardless of the future 
actions of the parents, the child is baptized: Original Sin has been washed 
away; he is filled with sanctifying grace; he becomes a child of God and heir 
of Heaven.
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: jocallag@vyasa.helios.nd.edu (john ocallaghan)
Subject: Re: Women's Ordination
Organization: OUC, University of Notre Dame
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 18:41:31 GMT

In article <1992Dec13.004804.1251@athena.mit.edu> norris@athena.mit.edu (Richard A Chonak) writes:
>In article <1992Dec11.134840.6230@news.nd.edu>, jocallag@bach.helios.nd.edu (john ocallaghan) writes:
>|> In article <921210160613.2020661b@ASTRO.CS.HH.AB.COM> URSIC@ASTRO.CS.HH.AB.COM writes:
>|> >John O. Writes:
>|> >>In short, saving grace is
>|> >>offered to all as equal persons before Christ, but it does not follow that
>|> >>every person is offered every mode of saving grace.
>|> >
>|> >In all that you wrote, John, I saw no reason why the saving grace of holy
>|> >orders could not be offered to a few select females. (selected by God:-)
>|> 
>|> I was not giving an argument why holy orders could not be offereed to a
>|> few select females,
>
>If ordination were a sacrament that conferred grace on Christians for their own
>sanctification, it would be wrong to bar women from it.  But the sacrament
>doesn't convey sanctifying grace; it confers graces and powers for the apostolic
>ministry, which is a different issue.
>
>-_RC

Thanks for the clarification.  I had a suspicion that I might be 
using the terms inaccurately or even incorrectly.  That is part
of the reason I put the disclaimer on the original post about
accepting Church teaching if anything I said was in error.

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Date:         Sat, 12 Dec 1992 21:08:17 HST
From:         Len Howard <tas@PEGASUS.COM>
Subject:      Re: Contraception
              11, 10:24am)

Gordon, I would agree with you 100%.  I practice OBGyn full time, and
counsel many, many women about contraceptives.  The women interested
in NFP are mature, committed, devoted women, who recognize their
intentionality, and are willing to subjugate their particular temporal
desires for a greater cause.  And besides, there are many ways to
express affection......

Shalom,                              Len Howard
From: v074r7ce@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (I DON'T REALLY FEEL BROKE UNTIL I'M OUT OF STAMPS...)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: re- a delicate matter
Date: 11 Dec 92 17:47:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

A friend and I (both Catholic) have been trying to figure out if making out
(in itself) is a sin... if so, how far can one go kissing without ... 
incriminating oneself.  We've been trying to see if the subject of necking/
petting is brought up in doctrine, but we just can't find it and the debate 
goes on.  Would it be a near occasion of sin or the real thing?

                        M.C.
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Date:         Thu, 17 Dec 1992 14:05:59 -0700
From:         "Gordon C. Zaft" <zaft@CARITAS.COTDAZR.ORG>
Subject:      Re: new catechism

On Dec 16,  5:22pm, Tony Zamora wrote:
} Subject: When will the new RC catechism be released in English?
} Does anybody know when the new Roman Catholic catechism will be released in
} English?  I called the local parish, and they didn't have any information.
}-- End of excerpt from Tony Zamora

I just called and put myself on the waiting list at my local Catholic
bookstore. They were told that they would know more in January.

GZ

--
* Gordon Zaft     Argus Consulting  4500 E. Sunrise #N-6, Tucson, AZ 85718
* zaft@caritas.cotdazr.org | noao.edu!coyote!caritas!zaft
                 Semper fidelis Christi et Vicarii sui.