From: carroll@nori.cis.udel.edu (Mark C. Carroll)
Subject: Re: Are they not men?
Organization: University of Delaware, Newark
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 16:45:27 GMT

In article <13678@optilink.COM> cramer@optilink.COM (Clayton Cramer) writes:
>In article <1992Dec16.213058.16769@udel.edu>, carroll@bifur.cis.udel.edu (Mark C. Carroll) writes:
>> In article <13647@optilink.COM> cramer@optilink.COM (Clayton Cramer) writes:
>> ]In article <104863@bu.edu>, kane@buast7.bu.edu (Hot Young Star) writes:
>> ]] In article <1992Dec14.052336.14122@netcom.com]
># ]] Indeed. There were over a hundred reports of sexual misconduct during the
># ]] Gulf War. Only four were homosexual, and three of those were consensual
># ]] acts.
># ]
># ]Of course.  Homosexuals aren't inducted, and are separated from the
># ]service when discovered.  Next you will surprise us with the very
># ]low number of females in the military going AWOL.  No more than
># ]4% of the general population is homosexual.  In the military, it's
># ]doubtless much lower.  Do you think it's even .4% of the military
># ]is homosexual?  In that case, 4 homosexual misconducts out of 100
># ]total is nothing to brag about -- quite the opposite.
># 
># Sorry, Clayton.
># 
># First, according to the studies that YOU YOURSELF have posted,
># homosexuals are NOT LESS THAN 4% of the population, and you have
># *never* posted any information that could place an upper bound on the
># number of gays in the general population.
>
>Not true.  What I have posted shows that homosexuals are no MORE
>than 4% of men, and probably less than 4% of women.
>

No. You've posted studies that generate percentages based on asking
people whether or not they have had any sexual contact with members of
their own sex. 

The number of people who answer "Yes" in such a survey is a *lower
bound* on the number of people who actually have had homosexual
experiences. The number of people who have actually had homosexual
contact *cannot be less than* the number of people who have admitted
to it! It is almost certainly higher (as the performers of the survey
admitted, in the preface that was included in an article by a
different poster).


># Second, the number of gays in the military is a complete unknown. Any
># number you use to represent the supposed percentage of gays in the
># military is completely your own creation, based on no information
># whatsoever. You can draw no conclusions from such numbers - they're
># nonsense.
># 
>You mean, the very stuff they ask during entry into the armed forces,
>and the rules they have for kicking out homosexuals, and the illegal
>sweeps that military police do of gay bars, checking IDs, do 
>ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to reduce the number of homosexuals in the armed
>forces?

There are so many different influences, that I don't think we have any
way to judge whether homosexuals make up a larger or smaller
percentage of the military than of the general population.

The people who volunteer for the military are nothing near a perfect
cross-section of the civilian society. Many groups are drastically
overrepresented, and many other groups are very underrepresented.
Since we force gays in the military to hide, and to not admit to their
sexuality, we have absolutely *no way* to gauge how large or small the
homosexual population is within the military.

And besides that, the tactics that the military uses to identify gays
aren't going to be terribly effective. (Not all gay men hang out at
gay bars. Of all the gay men I know, none of them do.) And if they
enlist in the military, they're closeted, and they won't do anything
to reveal the truth for fear of having their careers.

>I made no claim that I knew what percentage of the armed forces
>were homosexual.  I pointed out that it's unlikely to be as high
>as the general population.

And I'm just pointing out that you have no evidence to support that
claim.

	<MC>
-- 
|| Mark Craig Carroll: <MC>     ||"I prize the cloudy, tearing sky,
|| Univ of Delaware, Dept of CIS|| for the thoughts that flap and fly.
|| Grad Student/Labstaff Hacker || For staying in and reading by.
|| carroll@udel.edu             || For sitting under" -Karen Peris
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