HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: shiv@tsp.med.umn.edu (Shiv Prasad)
Subject: Re: Science and Technology (Re: Family values ...)
Organization: University of Minnesota
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 01:35:27 GMT

In article <1992Jul29.184020.17893@Firewall.Nielsen.Com> mgundeko@pcserver2.Naitc.Com (Murthy Gundekota) writes:
>affected. In that sense, family values are nothing but a set of
>agreements about family units for the survival of the species. And
>science is not a villain but a way of life that guarantees our
>survival.  The question is: where do these seemingly two different
>fronts come together? Religion, of course.
>
>
>Murthy

Science and family values come together at religion?  Please explain.
The so-called "family values" of taday seem based in religion.  Religion,
or at least organized religion, frowns upon the inquisitive nature of 
science (remember the shroud of Turin?)  The religious powers seek to
preserve the status quo, and hence their own influence over their congre-
gations.  They eschew those who aren't satisfied by the "because the 
Bible/Koran/Gita/etc says so."  I agree that society's values lag behind
technology, but how exactly does religion bridge the gap.
If the religion-glue statement was facetious, the ignore my rantings.

Shiv

Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
From: urvishb@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (urvish bidkar)
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
Subject: Re: Desi friends
Date: 30 Jul 92 16:05:38 GMT
Reply-To: urvishb@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (urvish bidkar)
Distribution: na
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin TX
Originator: urvishb@thumper.cc.utexas.edu

In article <bjag-270792123108@owl.ls.nwu.edu> bjag@nwu.edu (Bharathi Jagadeesh) writes:
{stuff deleted}
>marriaged arranged? If culture, religion, and language are particularly
>important to them, it might be hard to find someone who matches those
>characteristics without some kind of assistance.
>
>Needless to say I also think people should be allowed to find their own
>mate, if they want to, and that by no means should parents force _their_
>religion culture or language on their children's choice of a mate. But if
>the child agrees, there's nothing wrong with arranged marriages. 
>
>Bharathi Jagadeesh                 bjag@nwu.edu

i agree with what bharathi has to say. a point most people dont realise 
is - in a social setup like that in india, where dating is by and large
not a norm, how does one "find/hook" somebody? my point is that the social
structure in india necessitates practise of arranged marriages. ofcourse,
it also provides parents with power that they could (and often do) misuse.

on the other hand, i've met people here (both "indian" and "non-indian")
who find the idea of an arranged marriage appealing.

urvish
urvishb@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu       nobody provokes me with impunity.

Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
From: Veeramany.Sthanumurthy@bbs.oit.unc.edu (Veeramany Sthanumurthy)
Subject: Re: White Guys Superior?
Organization: Extended Bulletin Board Service
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 19:49:39 GMT

In article <152bo1INNd22@cs.utexas.edu> srin@cs.utexas.edu (Srinivas Nedunuri) writes:
[in response to Ron Hira's friend's comments]
>
[stuff about colonialism and "even" white liberals' superiority
complex deleted]
>generally ignorable. Like all stereotypes this opinion does have a ring of
>truth to it. And as long as Asians continue to conform to their own self-
>imposed stereotype this attitude among whites will only continue.
>
>On a similar vein, there have been various comments about how "its easier"
>(from a dating point of view ) for Asian women than for Asian men. This 
>in fact almost follows logically from the general widely held views that
>whites have of Asians. Since Joe Public is interested in a "submissive"
>woman its only natural he would expect to make it with any Asian woman that
>appeals to him. Jane Private, on the other hand, is looking for a "powerful" man so there's no way an Asian geek would fit the bill. In fact I would be very
>surprised if it were otherwise.
>
>--s;

Is this an attempt at exposing a stereotype or reinforcing it? At first
glance it seems as if you are finally about to rise above all the
caricatures of human beings discussed so far. And then, a very logical
conclusion that Asian women are subservient (albeit in the white -
no "even" liberal qualifiers here - view) and that Asian men are geeky.
I don't meant to say that you are being simply politically incorrect. In
fact, the pit you fell into is quite a bit deeper than that, IMHO.

Just wondering if it was just a faux pas ..
OR is the "almost logically" an escape clause?

Sthan.

PS. Very interesting articles in this newsgroup - Thanks Raghavan.
--
   The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the University of
     North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the Campus Office for Information
        Technology, or the Experimental Bulletin Board Service.
           internet:  bbs.oit.unc.edu or 152.2.22.80
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
From: mgundeko@pcserver2.Naitc.Com (Murthy Gundekota)
Subject: Re: Boy proposes, Girls' brother disposes
Organization: Somewhere near Chicago
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 92 18:22:16 GMT

In article <17320@autodesk.COM> sundar@Autodesk.COM (Sundar Krishnamurthy) writes:
>Imagine some guy on the street writing
>a letter to your hypothetical (or real), pretty (hypothetical/real)
>sister? I can see you and the rest of the family loading up the
>ancestral bazookah to nuke this guy! Come on! It is a natural gut
>reaction. 

I guess we aren't talking about the same gut here. I think using India
as a reference pretty much rules out what you say. Because, accosting
someone (not stalking as the communist police tell you or the Nazi feminists   
impress upon you) thru letters is a very legitimate way. Love letters,
romance poems, etc. have their origins there. Now, don't you wish
you had a sober look at life?

>Just because they are in US and they threatened your
>friend it doesn't alter our basic tendency to overblow something
>like this. But then again, think of all the women who get stalked
>but psychopaths waiting to rape and/or kill them someday...Welcome
>to the 90s.

No, this is not a 90's phenomenon. Nor are cowards new on the face
of the earth.

>It doesn't matter where they are born. Get out of this ABCD-means-
>dumb knee-jerk reaction. People are pretty much the same. Actually,
>it is you who would like that girl to "meet/flirt" with your friend,
>the very actions which are regarded Western and therefore, decadent!
>
>Sundar

This takes the full circle of your reaction (and even provides some
clues as to why you wrote what you wrote). When people are pretty much
the same, why are some so dumb and presumptive?

However, if you wrote a disclaimer saying that this is how someone
might have felt about that ``one'' letter, like a living dead
walkathon contestant, I would agree in its entirity.


Murthy


Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
From: msanghvi@sol.ulowell.edu (Mehul Sanghvi)
Subject: Re: A tale of Two Worlds
Reply-To: msanghvi@cs.ulowell.edu
Organization: UMass-Lowell CS Dept.
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 21:16:38 GMT


i dont consider myself as ABCD simply coz although born here i was raised in 
India and United Arab Emirates. 

anyway i did fall in love with an ABCD and was "ditched" for another ABCD (i 
think). i'll tell u the reasons when i myself find out why she did that.


peace
--
===============================================================================
Mehul "raja lakhan" Sanghvi    | University of Massachusets at Lowell, CS Dept.
Inet: msanghvi@cs.ulowell.edu  | US Mail:  754 Aiken St. #11
UUCP: harvard!ulowell!msanghvi |           Lowell, MA. 01850-1804
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian,soc.culture.asian.american
From: mgundeko@pcserver2.Naitc.Com (Murthy Gundekota)
Subject: Re: Science and Technology (Re: Family values ...)
Organization: Somewhere near Chicago
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 92 18:00:46 GMT

[I think by changing the subject line, the usefulness of this thread
to the culture bboards is almost none]

In article <1992Jul28.135032.21029@athena.mit.edu> tyadav@athena.mit.edu (Tapesh Yadav) writes, in reply to my two hypotheses:
>====================================
> mgundeko@pcserver2.Naitc.Com (Murthy Gundekota) writes:
>>
>> Eventually when science exhausts its
>> potential to improve or mitigate its bad side-effects or outweight its
>> good vs. its own bad, even science and technology become inadequate.
>>

> This sounds so sweeping. And pessimistic :-|

Exactly. Please don't attempt to (dis)prove it. It is not possible
and is a waste of time. 

> It is not limited, also because it is self corrective. Science evolves.
> It grows by questioning its own foundation. It grows with facts. 

I am not sure whether what you say has a proper grounding. Science is
not an organism or an artificially intelligent entity. What you say
applies to us as people using science.

>> But then, such a possibility may not happen in the near future. So we
>> don't have to give up hope on science and technology until proven
>> otherwise (a theory in itself!).
>
> How can anyone prove such a proposition. For, the concept of proof
> belongs to science. Wouldn't that make the proof a contradiction in
>itself.

Concept of proof is more primitive that science itself. The proof
is not a contradiction, but a contradiction of something you either
assumed, believed or proved using another set of assumption, beliefs
or axioms. In sum, we are walking on two different planets across a
black hole :-)


Murty



Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
From: mgundeko@pcserver2.Naitc.Com (Murthy Gundekota)
Subject: Re: New racism (was Re: "Lonely in America" + Desis in convenience stores)
Organization: Somewhere near Chicago
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 92 18:08:36 GMT

In article <1992Jul23.185853.17094@novell.com> mvij@novell.com (Manish Vij) writes:
>That's not my bias, that's my *POINT*.  The Kennedys, especially JFK, are
>today used as totems by politicians such as Clinton and Gore who are stumping
>cross-country on the same initial campaign route that Jack Kennedy
>travelled.  BUT at the time, JFK was seen as not mainstream due to his
>Catholic upbringing, and had to promise not to obey orders of the Pope.
>Even further back, the Irish faced the same discrimination that "white"
>people inflict today on "non-white" people, or vice versa.


Irish claim even today that they are being discriminated. The IRA
movement speaks it all. Someone has posted about how poorly Indians
are treated in U.K. I won't be surprised if the Irish feel the same
way. So effectively, we have unified the ``oppressed'' in the sense of
pain and suffering and lost the scope of the word racism. So it is
just idle curiosity for me, that is what you have written. In fact, I
am not the only one...ask any non-white minority. 


Murthy
From: mgundeko@pcserver2.Naitc.Com (Murthy Gundekota)
Subject: Re: Science and Technology (Re: Family values ...)
Organization: Somewhere near Chicago
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 92 18:40:20 GMT

In article <1992Jul28.222513.20974@athena.mit.edu> tyadav@athena.mit.edu (Tapesh Yadav) writes:
> Well then, what is science?
> What are we talking about here? :)

Okay, I think you have been a bit zealous in keeping the discussion
at pure science & technology level (same with another poster who
wouldn't agree any comments diminuting science or technology, however,
more reactive). There is a whole gamut of literature that covers this
angle. From my understanding, no one denies that science has a
positive effect on family values. However, everyone more or less
agrees that technology gave new challenges for the continued existence of
traditional family values that were thought to be immutable. So
science & tech. will continue to shake up all the conventional wisdom
about family values, much like everything other walk of life they have
affected. In that sense, family values are nothing but a set of
agreements about family units for the survival of the species. And
science is not a villain but a way of life that guarantees our
survival.  The question is: where do these seemingly two different
fronts come together? Religion, of course.


Murthy
From: soam@freyja.cs.cornell.edu (Soam Acharya)
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
Subject: Re: Indians in the Caribbean
Date: 28 Jul 92 14:27:46 GMT
Reply-To: soam@freyja.cs.cornell.edu (Soam Acharya)
Organization: Cornell University, Ithaca, NY


  In article  <152hp1INNsev@agate.berkeley.edu> murthy@heaviside.berkeley.edu 
  (Praveen Murthy) writes:

	In article <bjag-270792121238@owl.ls.nwu.edu> bjag@nwu.edu 
	(Bharathi Jagadeesh) writes:

	>Indians have been voicing their opposition to the Fijian changes by
	>leaving. It's not clear to me that a civil war would have been a 
	>better way to try to try to change the unjust political system in Fiji

  Oh, I think so.  Having the attitude that one must run away to a better place
  when things get rough is hardly a sound thing to do. 

But this is exactly what happened in Uganda.  Later in the same decade, the
same thing happened in Iran during the revolution but to a lesser extent
since the Ayatollah reserved his acrimony for the Americans.  And let's not
forget the exodus from Kuwait, although again, Saddam had no vendetta
against Indians.

I worry that Uganda and Fiji will only serve to reinforce the image of
Indians as timid people who'll only be too glad to leave once they've been
told to do so as opposed to staying and defending what is theirs.  I wonder
about the peace process in South Africa in the same token - by all means
let apartheid be abolished and blacks be enfranchised.  However, I really
don't read in the media where the large Indian population in South Africa
come into all this and how this affects their future?  If my impression of
the regime is correct, Indians serve as a sort of buffer class between the
blacks and the whites, in which case they are eventually likely to get the
short end of the stick because of black resentment and because they'll be
perceived as not being able to stand up for themselves.  I hope I am wrong.



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
From: cariapa@Tied-House.Stanford.EDU (Sandeep Cariapa)
Subject: Re: Indians in Fiji (was Re: Indians in the Caribbean)
Organization: EECF, Stanford University
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 92 23:24:25 GMT

In article <1992Jul30.164147.17978@draco.macsch.com>, rot@mickie.id.macsch.com (Rohit Thukral) writes:
|>In article <1992Jul29.193528.561@EE.Stanford.EDU>, cariapa@Tied-House.Stanford.EDU (Sandeep Cariapa) writes:
|>|> 	It is very interesting interacting with Fijian Indians: the dialect of
|>|> Hindi that they speak is very different from any of the Hindi I've
|>|> heard in India (which I admit, is quite a limited sample space) It is
|>|> more of a mixture of all Indian languages, since people from all over
|>|> India were shanghaied to Fiji. The language seems to have evolved
|>|> differently as well, since these people were isolated for such a long
|>|> time from mainland India. The cuisine is very different too, it uses a
|>|> lot of herbs and plants that are native to the South Pacific islands
|>|> and are unheard of in India. 
|>|> 
|>Its very interesting that Fiji Indians have kept their language while
|>they have adapted their food habits. This is a marked contrast to a post
|>(perhaps it was email) about Carribean Indians, which said that Indians
|>in the Carribean have given up their language but have kept their food.
|>I wonder what caused this difference in assimilation patterns.
|> 
|> Rohit
	
	Well, not really..I apologize. Fiji Indian cooking is definitely
recognizable as desi cooking, ie curry. However, they use many different herbs
and plants that are native to the South Pacific region. 

-- 
 Sandeep Cariapa, cariapa@eecf.stanford.edu, (415) 723-1004 (work address)
 System programmer, EECF, Stanford University. 
 Hardware, n.: The parts of a computer system that can be kicked.
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
From: tyadav@athena.mit.edu (Tapesh Yadav)
Subject: Science and Technology (Re: Family values ...)
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 13:50:32 GMT

====================================
 mgundeko@pcserver2.Naitc.Com (Murthy Gundekota) writes:
>
> Eventually when science exhausts its
> potential to improve or mitigate its bad side-effects or outweight its
> good vs. its own bad, even science and technology become inadequate.
>

 This sounds so sweeping. And pessimistic :-|

 What is science/technology? - is perhaps the question to address here.

 Science/technology is a means to identify and solve problems. And
 also create means of happiness/values that didn't exist before.
 Is it limited? Can its potential be exhausted? I don't think so.

 Being a means, or to be more precise a "method," it is limited not
 by itself. Rather it is limited by our intellect, our fears, 
 our prejudices. A method is like math/numbers - unbounded unto infinity,
 unscoped unto imaginary concepts. 

 It is not limited, also because it is self corrective. Science evolves.
 It grows by questioning its own foundation. It grows with facts. 

> But then, such a possibility may not happen in the near future. So we
> don't have to give up hope on science and technology until proven
> otherwise (a theory in itself!).

 How can anyone prove such a proposition. For, the concept of proof
 belongs to science. Wouldn't that make the proof a contradiction in itself.

 Just cross examining the "theory in itself"  :)

T.Y.
----
tyadav@athena.mit.edu
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
From: nair@quintus.com (Anil Nair)
Subject: Re: Serving The Society
Organization: Quintus Corporation, Palo Alto, CA
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 17:32:47 GMT

In article <1992Jul18.200210.26127@athena.mit.edu>, tyadav@athena.mit.edu (Tapesh Yadav) writes:
> ===========================
> >     Swami Vivekananda once said, "Poverty there must be, so long
> >as the disease known as civilization exists and hence the need of
> >relief."  
> >......
> 
>  Well, such posts make me feel like pressing "u"
> 

Well, if a quote from Swami Vivekananda (who I think was one of the most
lucid speakers to explain Hinduism and eastern spiritual thought to the
western world) taken out of context makes you want to question every phrase
and act completely close minded, I would consider it your loss.

To indulge in a more constructive exchange: The problem I find is that Hinduism
is entrenched as a way of life into Indian culture way too deep. Its affects
can be seen at various layers. And all the interesting stuff that it has
(to me) is very often mired in a morass of superficialities.
In its fundamentals, all that it is, is a set of axioms to understand the
universe in a consistent framework. Much like modern physics. The only
problem is that these fundamental axioms are far removed from the "real"
macroscopic world that it is hard to grasp it properly. Again much
like modern atomic physics. Most students of the subject just practice
playing with the language in which the truths are expressed till they
get comfortable with it. And hopefully will get some insights from it.
Again much like physics students playing around with complex mathematical
formalisms which describe the world around them. Carping on a 0.00000001 in the
middle is not going to help you learn.
Jeez this is terrible! I am starting to sound like Fritjof Capra. Aarrgh.

A very good book I found to read was Swami Vivekananda's "Jnana Yoga".
Its a collection of speeches. Sort of like reading "History of Time".

Anil Nair
P.S. As to people who have commented on "poverty and civilization":
Maybe Jesus Christ, Alduous Huxley, George Orwell, Paul Gauguin, Swift
and leaders of the evironmental movement make a more convinving argument
for you.

-- 
Reply to nair@quintus.com nair@quintus.uucp 
      or sun!quintus!nair or quintus!nair@sun.com
      or ...!sun!quintus!nair 
      or ...!{ames,excelan,pyramid,oliveb,altos,ucbvax,bionet}!amdahl!sun!quintus!nair
From: rot@mickie.id.macsch.com (Rohit Thukral)
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
Subject: Re: Asian-American Studies 127 READING LIST
Date: 22 Jul 92 16:10:11 GMT
Reply-To: rot@mickie.id.macsch.com
Organization: MSC, Los Angeles

Thanks, Manish, for digging up this list.

Now, can someone tell me where I can find these
books in the LA area? If not, I'll call Eastwind Books
in Berkeley to see if they'll mail these titles
to me.

Rohit Thukral
-- 
#include <StdDisclaimer.h>
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
From: mgundeko@pcserver2.Naitc.Com (Murthy Gundekota)
Subject: Re: Views of Whites
Organization: Somewhere near Chicago
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 92 17:54:33 GMT

In article <4444@dove.nist.gov> hira@cme.nist.gov writes:

>Individuals obviously differ from the stereotype, but I THINK that 
>most FOREIGNERS have a poor view of african americans. Now if you want to
>call me a racist, that's certainly your prerogative. But to say that 
>desi americans do not differ from desi immigrants is in my opinion not
>true.
>I'm not sure if your point about racism and patriotism has to do with 
>desis or just with generalizing about people. Maybe you can clarify this
>point.
>
>Ron

In response, in article <BrwGzB.7z5@news.larc.nasa.gov> avik@icase.edu
(Avik Banerjee) writes:

>in my experience ive noticed that desi immigrants tend to think of blacks
>as a lesser culture more than desis who have been here for a while. 


I think you two (among many others I know) are mistaking prejudice vs.
racism. 

Someone once said about racism: ``if it isn't raining in your suburb,
it doesn't mean there is no rain elsewhere.'' A corollary of this is
applicable to desis: 

``because it rains in our suburbs, it rains here too'' or ``it rains
everywhere'' 

This corollary is used when a desi explains his existence in USA, 

Another corollary of the original quote is: 

`` it rains in my suburb real hard, but in your suburb it doesn't rain
as much''  or ``when it rains it pours in my suburb''

Discrimination, caste and color based, was the order even  in ancient
cultures. Many desis use this corollary to justify their existence in
spite of overt discrimination they face at job or elsewhere here in
USA. 

``whenever it rains in my suburb, I walk into your suburb where it is
dry'' or ``it doesn't rain where I am now'' or ``I go where it doesn't
rain'' 

Typically, all immigrants, in the beginning, hold this view when they
embrace their new motherland. So even desis are blind to
discrimination upon themselves. 

(interestingly, switch rain with reign and still the meaning is the
same) 

So folks, it rains everywhere, and no body is perfect.


I like to think of racists as those who ``deny'' something, viz.
rights, privileges, goods, services, etc. to others, because they have
a deep rooted fear or animosity that somehow their position in the
society will be undermined. Au contraire, desis have nothing to 
fear from african americans. Indeed it is because of the civil rights
movement led by african american leaders that many non-white, and
brown cultures, such as desis, have been allowed to immigrate.
However, if they have prejudice against x, then it is only
natural--just as x will have prejudices against them. Co-existence,
education, co-operation are some of the practical ways to get around
prejudice and that is only possible when all parties live in the same
neighborhood. And many desis haven't seen an african american before
coming here.  



Murthy

Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian