HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: gsnow@clark.edu (Gary Snow)
Newsgroups: rec.photo
Subject: Re: media permanence (was Re: photo-developing, specifically nudes)
Date: 19 Aug 92 15:55:39 GMT
Article-I.D.: clark.1992Aug19.155539.17331
Organization: Clark College, Vancouver, Wa.  USA

In article <1992Aug18.180346.10845@talon.ucs.orst.edu> monson@hobo.ECE.ORST.EDU (Ty Monson) writes:
>
>Of course, the fine B&W prints originally being discussed can sit
>indefinitely, unattended, without need for investment in new equipment,
>and still be ready for immediate viewing anytime in the future.

Hold it, are you trying to tell me that a B&W PRINT can out live its digital
counter-part?  I don't think so.

Gary

-- 
-----
Gary Snow
uunet!clark!gsnow  or  gsnow@clark.edu
Newsgroups: rec.photo
From: lws@s1.gov (Lee W. Spencer)
Subject: Re: Ground glass for 35mm film planes
Originator: lws@s1.gov
Keywords: ground glass
Organization: Lawrence Livermore National Lab
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 00:49:15 GMT


In article <1992Aug19.040355.17921@ecsvax.uncecs.edu>, mvolo@ecsvax.uncecs.edu (Michael R. Volow) writes:
|> 
|> I'm looking on a source for ground glass to use at the film plane
|> of non-reflex 35mm's. I would use it for checking the vignetting of
|> home-made sun shades, testing for lens flare, etc. I would hold the
|> shutter open with a locking cable release and hold the glass in place
|> on the film rails with tape.
|> 
|> Any suggestions as to sources for ground glass for this? Would matte
|> acetate from a drafting supply work for this?
|> 

Someone told me they used a piece cut from a condom.  It can be stretched
a little and taped into place - very flat.
From: mingos@vax.oxford.ac.uk
Newsgroups: rec.photo
Subject: Re: Grainy B&W film?
Date: 15 Aug 92 12:52:10 GMT
Organization: Oxford University VAX 6620

In article <1992Aug14.184242.1976@craycos.com>, sog@craycos.com (Steve Gombosi) writes:
> In article <1992Aug14.164047.21429@newshost.unh.edu> K_LEPA@unhh.unh.edu (Kristen   Lepa) writes:
>>Is there a B&W film out there that is inherently grainy?  I know it
>>would help if I got a very fast film, but I like to work with slower
>>speeds.  
> 
> Hmmm...why not use really fast film and a neutral density filter?
> 
> Does Kodak still make recording film? Now *that* was grainy ;-).
> 
> Steve

    Kodak sure do, recording film 2450, got some in my camera at this very
minute - grain the size of small asteroids...

Gavin
Newsgroups: rec.photo
From: rodney@cs.UAlberta.CA (Rodney Gitzel)
Subject: Re: Me and E6
Organization: University of Alberta
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 14:55:55 GMT

In article <1992Aug12.224033.2916@odin.corp.sgi.com> donl@glass.esd.sgi.com (donl mathis) writes:
>In article <rodney.713551781@kitscoty>, rodney@cs.UAlberta.CA (Rodney Gitzel) writes:
>
>|> But that's not _so_ important, anymore.  I just don't have the *time*,
>|>  at least right now, to deal with this.  [...]
>
>There's nothing like reality to rattle one's vision of happiness.  :)

	>sigh<

>
>You just need to get past the initial shock, I think.  The fear of the unknown.

Indeed.  That first step is always the hardest part of any endeavour.
 I have no doubt that E6 is not that hard -- but when you yourself
 don't know what you are doing ... I would be easier if someone showed
 me how to do it (and how easy it is).  But then I wouldn't have the
 fun of discovering this for myself, *would* I?  :->

>
>As to used chemicals -- try to arrange not to have any.
>It is a *serious* mistake to try and save money by using old
>chemicals.

Hmmm.  I paid $75 for the one-gallon kit (that's Canajun muney).
 Say I get 15 rolls out, without reuse.  That's $5/roll -- but I'm
 paying $7 for the lab to do it, right now!  Are there other savings
 involved, like maybe reusing the rest of the kit, but just buying
 new first developer?

>When I want clean chemistry, I want clean chemistry.

Agreed.  There's no point putting all that time and money into
 getting the images, only to give them just half-decent processing.


BTW, are there any books you would recommend for E6?  I am going to
 look into Kodak's "Colour Darkroom Guide" ... anything else?

Thanks.

Rodney Gitzel
From: geoff@pmafire.inel.gov (Geoff Allen)
Newsgroups: rec.photo
Subject: Re: More 4x5 questions
Date: 19 Aug 92 15:13:17 GMT
Organization: Computer Nerd (is that redundant?), WINCO, INEL, Idaho

franz@cs.washington.edu (Franz G. Amador) asked:
|> I saw an ad in the Adorama catalog for something called the "Pro 4x5
|> Focusing Hood", which looks like a lightweight aluminized cloth shaped
|> more or less into a tube.  One end ties around the camera back
|> somehow, and the other has an "elastic headband, which holds the hood
|> to the photographer's forehead while keeping both hands free."  Sounds
|> like a good design.  Has anybody used anything like this?

And donl@glass.esd.sgi.com (donl mathis) answered:
>Yes!  Mine is called a "Wood's Hood", and I got it several years ago.
 ...
>It is small and light and simple; a
>pleasant alternative to normal focusing cloths.  I normally don't use
>the elastic strap that holds the open end to my head, because when I
>get up close to the ground glass, the thing drapes down and gets in the
>way, and when I stand back a bit to stretch it out, I'm too far away to
>use the loupe.  Instead, I just drape it over my head; it barely
>reaches back there, but is long enough to stay put, and that's all that
>counts.  Highly recommended, though I still use a *real* focusing cloth
>with the 8x10.

Just a reminder for the budget-minded -- you can get most of the same
effect by sewing a couple of complementary strips of Velcro to a Real
Focusing Cloth (RFC).  The only thing you'll be missing is the ``small
and light.''  

I've seen donl's Wood's Hood, and while the size and weight are nice, 
I sometimes need it *dark* back at the focusing cloth (like when I'm
trying to focus my 90 f/8 under less than ``sunny f/16 rule''
conditions).  And since my photo backpack weighs only 16 lbs. fully
loaded (but without water or lunch, so add a couple of pounds for them,
and also add the weight of the tripod), I'm not too concerned about the
weight of the focusing cloth.  I hear there may be alternatives to the
dozen or so bulky holders in the pack, but I'm waiting to see what Barry
thinks of them after using them several months. ;^)

The whole thing (including all the bulky holders) still weighs less than
my nearly-three-year-old son, who has a backpack that he rides in from
time to time.  And the photo stuff doesn't wiggle around and ask ``Why?''
37 times per hour. ;^)

Geoff

-- 
Geoff Allen          \ The main difference between me and the student
uunet!pmafire!geoff   \  is that I have simply made more mistakes.
geoff@pmafire.inel.gov \    --George Drennan on teaching photo workshops.
Newsgroups: rec.photo
From: jcj@tellabs.com (JCJ)
Subject: Films for astrophotography (was: Ektar vs Gold)
Originator: jcj@sunl18
Keywords: Can I push Agfa 100 very far?
Organization: Huh?
Distribution: na
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 22:09:33 GMT

Steve Hix writes:

>...An article several months back in Astronomy about astrophotography
>compared several different color films.  The Ektar shots were quite
>different than the equivalent Kodacolor (Gold) shots, much cooler
>in color balance.

Do you remember the issue by any chance?  I'm just getting my feet
wet with some piggyback constellation shots and non-professional film
(I used 103aO plates and the like in school).  I picked up a roll of 
Agfachrome 100 since everybody around here was out of Fujichrome 400
to experiment with; can the Agfa be pushed with decent results or should
I use it to shoot the Santa Fe Rwy (my other favorite subject) and wait
for some Fuji?

>|  What's wrong with chasing nebulae till 3 am?  |-(

My wife doesn't like it much but she doesn't much appreciate me four-
wheeling with my Honda after a stack train either...  
Newsgroups: rec.photo
From: zrepachol@cc.curtin.edu.au (Paul Repacholi)
Subject: Re: polycarbonate camera bodies
Organization: Curtin University of Technology
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 15:29:47 GMT

In article <1992Aug21.080616.13080@sys.sweden.dg.com>, robert@sys.sweden.dg.com (Robert Claeson) writes:
> In article <1992Aug19.164840.29913@midway.uchicago.edu>, ar12@quads.uchicago.edu (Richard Nixon) writes:
> 
>> *"Canon EOS-1 is heavier than a Nikon F-4 even though the latter is reputed
>> * to contain more metal."
>> * Robert
>>  
>> Check your facts. The F4 weighs on the order of at least a pound more than the
>> EOS-1.
> 
> I did check my fact before posting. The EOS-1 with the PBD-E1 turned out to be
> heavier than the F4S (the one with the extra battery pack -- sort of like an
> EOS-1 with the PBD-E1).
> 

Second that. I had a chance to compare a F4 with the EOS-1. I pulled the E-1 and
stuck the Li on and was a little surprised that the EOS-1 was notably heavier.
( one in each hand. NB F4, not F4s )

~Paul
Newsgroups: rec.photo
Subject: Re: Nikon FG (? info wanted)
From: fred-mckenzie@ksc.nasa.gov (Fred McKenzie)
Date: 20 Aug 92 15:08:12 EST
Followup-To: rec.photo
Distribution: world
Organization: NASA/Kennedy Space Center, Florida

In article <1992Aug20.051957.2124@citec.oz.au>, sgccpgs@citec.oz.au (Paul
Salanitri) wrote:
> Does anyone know about this camera, I'm thinking of buying a 2nd hand
> one (possibly 10 years old)
> I must have a really accurate meter.

Paul-

The FG is probably a good choice if cost is a factor.  I believe this model
may have been current with the FE, and a little lower on the scale of
Nikons.  However, I've heard it is capable of TTL flash.  Note:  An FG-20
is NOT the same camera.

If the camera is ten years old, it is due for a routine
clean/lubricate/adjust.  This will add to the cost of owning the camera,
but should correct any major meter error.  Be sure to let the repair place
know you care about meter accuracy!

fred-mckenzie@ksc.nasa.gov
Newsgroups: rec.photo
From: ilsa@netcom.com (Ilsa VanHook)
Subject: Re: Grainy B&W film?
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 92 22:39:48 GMT
Organization: Shonen Knife Fan Club
Summary: how about infrared?

In article <1992Aug14.164047.21429@newshost.unh.edu> K_LEPA@unhh.unh.edu (Kristen   Lepa) writes:
>Is there a B&W film out there that is inherently grainy?

I love the grain i get with Kodak's High-Speed Infrared, and it's not
really "High-Speed" compared to normal b&w films; say 1/125 at f/11 or
so in bright sunlight with a #25 filter.
From: geoff@pmafire.inel.gov (Geoff Allen)
Newsgroups: rec.photo
Subject: Re: How to take picture in the dark??
Date: 19 Aug 92 21:54:38 GMT
Article-I.D.: pmafire.1992Aug19.215438.13384
Organization: Computer Nerd (is that redundant?), WINCO, INEL, Idaho

gsnow@clark.edu (Gary Snow) writes:
>In article <86520@netnews.upenn.edu> duong@chestnut.chem.upenn.edu (Duc Duong) writes:
>>
>>I went to Disney Land and I took alot of pictures during
>>the evening for electrical parade. I used 400 Kodak film, Nikon N4004S,
>>with a Nikon 22 flash in automatic mode but the quality of the pictures
>>turned out very very dull and badly.
>
>The secret is a good tripod, slow shutter speeds, and NO FLASH.

I also believe the Disneyland brochure gives ``guesstimate'' exposures
for various scenes around the park.  I don't remember if the Main Street
Electrical Parade is one of them, but it might be.

Geoff

-- 
Geoff Allen          \ The main difference between me and the student
uunet!pmafire!geoff   \  is that I have simply made more mistakes.
geoff@pmafire.inel.gov \    --George Drennan on teaching photo workshops.
Xref: sparky rec.photo:14515 alt.drugs:14883
From: dan@netcom.com (Dan Liddell)
Newsgroups: rec.photo,alt.drugs
Subject: radiation, bananas, film and drugs
Keywords: bananas gammas thc crc
Date: 20 Aug 92 15:27:27 GMT
Followup-To: poster
Distribution: usa
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)

In article <233@metran.UUCP> jay@metran.UUCP (Jay Ts) writes:
>geoff@pmafire.inel.gov (Geoff Allen) writes:
>:...
>: ............................................  Remember, you get a
>: radiation dose from watching TV, climbing a mountain, smoking a
>: cigarette, eating a banana, taking a trip to Denver, flying....
>...
>
>BTW, what kind of radiation does one get from bananas?  Were you serious
>about that?

Yes, I think he was. Bananas are potassium rich food (relatively).
Natural potassium is composed of .0118% potassium 40, with a half life
of 1,280,000,000 years. Its modes of decay are beta emission, positron
emission, and electron capture. The energies of these two emission
decays is 1.35 and 1.505 MEV. It looks like close to 98% of the decays
are of the electron capture variety, though (which are non-radiative,
as I understand it).

About the radiation. There is a fellow that has built a device for
noninvasively detecting large quantities of dried plant material in
people's luggage. It operates by detecting the spectrum of emissions
caused by the radioactive potassium in that dried plant matter. 

I suspect that this detection process relies on the fact that sooner
or later that positron is going to find an electron, and since they
are antiparticles, annihilate each other. This results in the emission
of one or more photons with gamma ray energies.  The actual mix of
photons looks something like 11% 1.46 MEV photons and 89% .511 MEV.

Clearly the device is not relying on the betas or positrons for
detection.  They have no penetrating power. Sounds like a gamma ray
spectrometer, with power measurements for the peaks.

So, be sure to get a permit for transporting those dried bananas in
your luggage, or the DEA will be on your tail :-)

Are radioactive bananas politically correct? :-)

Can I use a banana to remove dust particles from my film? :-)

-- 
Dan Liddell   dan@netcom.com
From: DH02@polytec1.polymtl.ca (DH02)
Newsgroups: rec.photo
Subject: RE: Flourencent light question
Date: 14 Aug 92 15:59:19 GMT
Organization: Ecole Polytechnique de Montreal

In article <robinson.20@odie.ee.wits.ac.za> robinson@odie.ee.wits.ac.za (Michael Robinson) writes:
>If I am shooting on daylight balanced film is there any filter available for
>use under flourescent light?  What other alternatives are there to avoiding
>green photos?

use a FLD filter.  most filter manufacturers (hoya, b+w, tiffen, cokin)
offer one.  FLD refers to FLuoroscent (light)  <-- Daylight (film)

>Thank you

no sweat.....

>Michael Robinson
>robinson@odie.ee.wits.ac.za

-Tamal Ghosh
 Genie chimique
 Ecole Polytechnique de Montreal
Newsgroups: rec.photo
Subject: Re: Rates for freelance photographer
From: fred-mckenzie@ksc.nasa.gov (Fred McKenzie)
Date: 20 Aug 92 18:43:30 EST
Followup-To: rec.photo
Distribution: world
Organization: NASA/Kennedy Space Center, Florida

In article <2A93E7A5.12590@orion.oac.uci.edu>, cheu@saturn.its.uci.edu
(Kelvin Cheu) wrote:
> Can anyone tell me how much a freelance photographer charge for
> taking a wedding, party, functions (company, school and clubs).
> Is it by the hour ? by # of rolls ? or is a package deal ? 
> I'm interested in making some $ out of this hobby during my free
> time.

Kelvin-

Unless you have experience doing wedding photography, I suggest you not do
it as the "official" Pro photographer.  Unless you are unusually talented,
you will be doing the newlyweds a disservice.

Taking candid shots of the bridal party, and at the reception, may produce
good shots that the Pro photographer might miss.  However, you would only
be in a position to do this if you were an invited guest.  Just don't make
the mistake I made once.  I wanted to make candid shots as a "gift", of my
cousin's wedding.  I also made several that duplicated some of the Pro's
shots.  When I presented the photos to my aunt, she showed me the proofs
from the Pro's photos, which were outstanding.  Mine were pathetic by
comparison.  However, my tightwad aunt never ordered any from the Pro, and
considered mine the "official" photographs.  I felt rather bad when I found
out what she had done, and decided I wouldn't do that again!  Last I heard,
my cousin's marriage was in trouble.  I hope it wasn't my fault.

fred-mckenzie@ksc.nasa.gov
Newsgroups: rec.photo
From: philliao@cory.Berkeley.EDU (Hsin-Chao Phil Liao)
Subject: mini-labs recommendations needed
Organization: University of California, at Berkeley
Distribution: ba
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 21:48:43 GMT

Hi, 

I have moved from MIT to Bezerkeley.  I need some recommendations
on the mini-labs around campus, or in the Albany, El Cerrito area.

- Phil (philliao@cory.berkeley.edu)



Newsgroups: rec.photo
From: skimmel@amex-trs.com (Steve Kimmel)
Subject: Re: Lens lube wanted
Organization: American Express Travel Related Services
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 05:11:58 GMT

In article <63737@cup.portal.com> JesseWest@cup.portal.com (jesse c newcomb) writes:
>
>So where do I get really _light_ grease for lens tracks? Any Ideas?
>
>thanks - Jesse                JesseWest@cup.portal.com

you might want to call or talk to a camera repair shop about what grease
to use and where to get it(maybe from them.)  I had a nikkor 85 f2 that
had factory grease and ended up getting it all over the aperature blades
.  The local repair place thought it could have happened because of too
much heat(situation normal here in phx) and said I'd have a better chance
of avoiding it in the  future if they used a heavier grease. I said "ok"
and the focus wasn't much different and for me maybe better because of a
reduced tendency to focus past the target.

-- 
Steve Kimmel   N7ULW           Phoenix, AZ      |                         
Internet skimmel@amex-trs.com                   | my views only, in no way
UUCP	 uupsi!amexphx!skimmel                  | the views of my employer.
From: finn@isi.edu (Greg Finn)
Newsgroups: rec.photo
Subject: Re: media permanence (was Re: photo-developing, specifically nudes)
Date: 21 Aug 92 21:55:43 GMT
Reply-To: finn@dalek.isi.edu (Greg Finn)
Organization: USC-Information Sciences Institute

In article <2k_nzw_@dixie.com> jgd@dixie.com (John De Armond) writes:
>finn@isi.edu (Greg Finn) writes:
>
>>	I doubt that paper tape is used on a significant scale now.  I
>>never claimed that there weren't some old digital technologies still
>>around, just that they are now insignificant.  Other than for
>>mini-computers and ASR 33 ttys, paper tape never had much of a
>>following from what I remember.  Certainly not by comparison with
>>Hollerith cards.

>How quickly they forget.  I see you've not been around the typesetting,
>process control or machine tool biz very much.  Not only did paper
>tape achieve dominance, it is still in widespread use.

	I'll stick by my statement.  Their use was and is very small
by comparison with Hollerith cards in their prime.  That paper tape
technology use is insignificant by comparison with cards doesn't imply
that what the machines do that still employ tape isn't itself
significant.  Since what I wrote seems to be confusing, I should have
stated it more clearly.


--
Gregory Finn	(310) 822-1511
Information Sciences Institute, Marina Del Rey, CA 90292
From: duane@cbnewsj.cb.att.com (duane.galensky)
Newsgroups: rec.photo
Subject: Re: Focal length rip-off. Coincidence?
Date: 12 Aug 92 20:34:15 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: AT&T

In article <1992Aug11.210014.8513@bony1.bony.com> jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni) writes:
>In article <1992Aug6.023324.24556@eskimo.celestial.com> wix@eskimo.celestial.com (Dennis Wicks) writes:
>
>>  Returning to the original subject, has anyone seen any tests where
>>  the lenses being tested _did_ measure at the indicated F.L.?  I am
>>  wondering how widespread this discrepancy might be.
>
>My old Speed Graphic has a lens marked 101 mm.  That's right - 101 mm.
>I wonder what they might have called that today...
>

"too many significant digits."

duane
From: sspely@uta.fi (Pekka Lylykorpi)
Newsgroups: rec.photo
Subject: Re: Canon EOS Rebel at high altitude and Cold - Problems ??
Date: 22 Aug 92 12:31:04 GMT
Organization: University of Tampere, Finland

In <1992Aug21.104903.49517@ccvax.ucd.ie> clissman@ccvax.ucd.ie writes:

>I have a canon EOS 1000 (Rebel in the US), which I hope to take on a climbing
>expedition to Nepal this October. We'll be climbing to 6500 metres (21000
>feet or so). Can I expect the camera to function, or do the electronics 
>'freeze up' ?? It is auto-everything, and, I think, totally dependant on its
>batteries. Any info and tips would be greatly apreciated.

I have used my EOS 1000 in finnish winter with temperatures down
to -20 C without any problems but I am also interested about
other user experiences with cold temperatures and especially
in the mountains because I planning to take it with me to
Aconcagua.

>Ciaran Clissmann, Dept Computer Science, Univ Coll Dublin, Ireland

Pekka Lylykorpi
Finland
From: hilary@netwise.com (Hilary Lane)
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: New Gardening Software
Date: 18 Aug 92 18:31:18 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Netwise Inc.  Boulder, CO

Just found this in a local newspaper. I have no connection to this company.

Green Thumb Software, Inc. of Boulder has announced LandDesigner-Pro, a
powerful CAD software program developed for landscape design. The tool 
enables landscaping professionals to quickly produce high-quality designs
for landscapes, gardens, walkways and sprinkler systems on a personal
computer. More than 300 pre-drawn symbols for plants and other landscaping
materials are included and 12 layers are available for use as overlays to
keep designs organized. Call 1-800-336-3127 for information.
-- 
Hilary Lane
Netwise, Inc., Boulder, Colorado
hilary@netwise.com
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
From: dedek@meaddata.com (Mike Dedek)
Subject: Re: Salt vs. Concrete
Organization: Mead Data Central, Dayton OH
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 12:53:56 GMT

In article <VSUMMERS.92Aug20155305@polaris.cv.nrao.edu>, vsummers@polaris.cv.nrao.edu (Vince Summers) writes:
|>      Salt can definitely attack concrete, especially, I believe, fresh
|> concrete.  Why not use Round-Up?  It is environmentally as mild as
|> an herbicide gets and is quite effective, and can't kill concrete!
|> 
|> Vince Summers
|> vsummers@polaris.cv.nrao.edu

Well, I've gotten one email reply that basically said in the small quantities
I'd be using salt probably wouldn't damage the driveway.  But...

1) Round-up, although as mild as a herbicide gets, still isn't "natural".
Salt is, although I might be missing the fact that a mild herbicide may
be less enviromentally-damaging than a natural product.

2) Salt is cheaper.

3) From what I've heard, salt will last longer.  Roundup lasts about 6 months?

Not trying to flame, just trying to optimize my solution :)

-Mike Dedek

Newsgroups: rec.gardens
From: al423@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Don Burden)
Subject: Re: BONSAI Club/Advice Info Needed
Reply-To: al423@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Don Burden)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 92 04:08:55 GMT


In a previous article, lzs@indetech.com () says:

>I am relatively new to the art of Bonsai. Could anyone tell me about some
>Bonsai organizations that may exist (for instance, a world-wide society of
>enthusiasts, or just a local club in the San Jose, CA area?)
>

There's an e-mail group interested in bonsai.  Here's where to write
for more info:



BONSAI-L@FOGHORN.PASS.WAYNE.EDU         BONSAI DISCUSSION LIST

   This list has been setup to facilitate discussion of the art and
   craft of Bonsai and related art forms.  Bonsai is the Oriental Art
   (Craft?) of minituarizing trees and plants into forms that mimic
   nature.  Everyone interested, whether novice or professional, is
   invited to send a note to:

   BONSAI-L-REQUEST@FOGHORN.PASS.WAYNE.EDU

   This list will be maintained manually for the moment.  I hope to
   setup a LISTSERV for it later in the future should demand require it.
   In your subscription note feel free to include information regarding
   your interest in the hobby, and any other information you think would
   be of interest.

   Owner: Daniel Cwiertniewicz  <dan@foghorn.pass.wayne.edu>
                                <dcwiert@cms.cc.wayne.edu>
                                <dcwiert@waynest1.bitnet>

-- 
Don Burden
New Albany, Indiana  USA
al423@cleveland.freenet.edu