From: eric@flab.fujitsu.co.jp (eric)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.netherlands
Subject: Re: Job (baan)
Date: 21 Aug 92 10:47:04 GMT
	<1992Aug18.194329.9008@cbnewsl.cb.att.com>
Organization: Fujitsu Laboratories Ltd., Kawasaki, Japan.
In-reply-to: klink@cbnewsl.cb.att.com's message of 18 Aug 92 19:43:29 GMT

In article <1992Aug18.194329.9008@cbnewsl.cb.att.com>,
klink@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (steven.r.klinkner) wrote:

> spwim@mars.lerc.nasa.gov (Wim Degroot) writes:
> 
> >not very proud of their origin (at least not as much as for example the US, but
> >than, no country is as fanatic in that respect as the US) till they are pushed.
> 
> I didn't realize that I was so fanatic!  (let us compare during the next 
> Nederland-Duitsland football game ;-)  You certainly have some interesting
> impressions of the US... 

God, how I hate this kind of discussion "technique". Come on Steve,
cut the crap! Nobody cares how chauvinistic or not you are, what's at
issue here is the American people as a whole. Just look around you and
see how many people are waving flags at every occasion. Listen to your
politicians, who cannot seem to give a speech without having to
reaffirm that "America is No. 1". Count the number of times you hear
the word "un-American": I can't remember ever having heard a word like
"un-Dutch". Check out American athletes: every time they win something
(well, almost), they feel the need to proclaim they're so "proud to be
American". Even the French, who have a reputation for chauvinism,
would find that embarrassing. Really, you aren't going to deny that
Americans in general have more national pride than Europeans, are you?

This is not to say that a lot of Dutch people (including myself :-)
aren't a lot more chauvinistic than they generally care to admit...

> One aspect of lifestyle that many people come to the US to enjoy is 
> economic opportunity (certainly a big, but not necessarily THE most 
> important part of a 'lifestyle').  

I suppose that's true: America probably has more rags-to-riches
stories than any other country. However, for every rags-to-riches
story, there's a million rags-to-rags stories (well, a million's a bit
overdone really, but you get the point). So I think that anybody who
goes to the US hoping to make a million would do better to think
twice. America may have more millionaires, but it also has more
poverty and more homelessness than any other developed nation.
Personally, I prefer the European model, with less of a income gap.

>     - fewer social services (means generally better life for the educated
>       middle class due to lower taxes) 

Fewer social services means more poverty, homelessness and therefore
more crime, which means unsafety and apprehension even for the middle
class. To slightly overstate the issue, I'd rather be relatively poor
in a safe society than rich in an unsafe one (depending on just how
poor and how rich, of course). In fairness, I should add that European
societies are growing unsafer as well, but at least we got gun
control.

> browning@willard.nas.nasa.gov writes:
> >klink@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (steven.r.klinkner) writes:
> 
> > n> n>|> US: 
> >|>     - low tax on wages (greater disposable income) 
> >|>     - low cost of housing purchases (low population density) 
> 
> >In most of the US, geographically speaking.  However, economic
> >opportunities tend to be in metropolitan areas, where PURCHASABLE
> >housing is unattainable for the majority of the middle class.  In
> 
> I was speaking COMPARATIVELY, by which I mean that it is generally even 
> MORE difficult for the Dutch middle class to purchase homes.  The NL 
> (in particular) is characterized by overcrowding and housing shortages.  

Don't agree. Buying a house in the Netherlands is not nearly as
difficult as you seem to think it is. These houses may be small for
American standards, but that's irrelevant for Dutch people. From the
point of view of a Japan resident, Dutch houses are HUMONGOUS. ^_^

> >|> NL: 
> >|>     - low cost of housing rentals (for residents only?)  
> 
> >HUH?  Is there some discrimination based on resident status, or are
> >there housing subsidies for residents and not foreigners?  Please
> >explain this, I hadn't heard of this before.
> 
> From my understanding, yes (although I can't quote you a government
> regulation).  According to a friend who inquired on my behalf, the cheapest
> housing is reserved for residents.  Non-residents (who apply for housing
> through the government) are forced into more expensive housing. 

I'm not sure what exactly you (or your friend) would be referring to,
but I think there's a misunderstanding here. My understanding of the
rules is a bit shaky (and perhaps somewhat outdated as well), but
here's what I think I know. In the Netherlands, if you want to live in
a city, you can try either the public sector or the private sector.
Whether you qualify for the public or not depends first of all on your
income. Then, you have to be "bound" to the city where you want to
live; this would mean that you either live there already or have a job
there (there might be other reasons as well). If you qualify for
public housing, then you go to city hall and get put on a waiting
list. The average waiting time depends on the city; I remember it was
2 1/2 years in Delft 7 years ago. (Delft may not be very big, but it's
a university town, so waiting times are fairly long. I think Amsterdam
and Utrecht had the longest waiting times.) The private sector is of
course more expensive, but there are no restrictions on who may buy or
rent housing. Of course, the above doesn't apply for small villages:
I imagine they'd be happy to take anyone who wants to move in.

Whether you qualify for housing subsidy or not depends on your income
only, for as far as I know. In my understanding, discrimination on the
basis of nationality is illegal in the Netherlands. This would apply
to the criteria for qualifying for public housing as well as to
subsidies. As I said, I'm less than perfectly sure of myself, so if
I'm mistaken somewhere, I hope somebody who knows more about it will
correct me.

--
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Eric M. Visser                         email: eric@flab.fujitsu.co.jp
Fujitsu Laboratories Ltd.              phone: 044 - 754 - 2671
Kawasaki, Japan                        fax  : 044 - 754 - 2570
Newsgroups: soc.culture.netherlands