HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: bz754@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Derek J. Wojciech)
Newsgroups: talk.origins
Subject: Re: Probability of Evolution
Date: 17 Nov 1992 17:36:33 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener) says:

>In article <XLe5TB10w165w@kalki33>, kalki33!system@lakes writes:
>>In order for systems of low information content to evolve into
>>systems of high information content, there must be a source of
>>high information content somewhere in order to "guide" the natural
>>selection process.
>
>This is false: broken symmetry.  Consider snowflakes.
>-- 
>-Matthew P Wiener (weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu)
>

But do snowflakes have a higher information content than the atmospheric
water that existed before the freezing process?  You need less information to 
describe the snowflakes because when water freezes it creates countless     
millions of ice crystals that have sixfold symmetry.  Snowflakes have this
symmetry because they are made from these ice crystals.  Since the crystals
are identical to each other, the information that describes one ice crystal
describes all ice crystals.  There are also constraints on the water molecules
within the volume of any one ice crystal that limit the ways they can be
arranged.  This means less info is needed to describe their whereabouts.
So the system loses information as atmospheric water changes into snowflakes.
 
					L8tr,
						Derek
 

-- 
'Fire and Love, the two extremes |  wojciech@ossek.nrl.navy.mil /    ***.
that we live between, Fire and   |-----------------------------/    **   '
Love, there's more to life than  | Surfing or Snowboarding         ****
the eye can see.'  Guardian      |      ridin' the Wave........._-*********
Newsgroups: talk.origins
From: weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener)
Newsgroups: talk.origins
Subject: Re: Probability of Evolution
Date: 16 Nov 92 17:05:48 GMT
Reply-To: weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener)
Organization: The Wistar Institute of Anatomy and Biology
In-reply-to: kalki33!system@lakes.trenton.sc.us

In article <8gV9TB8w165w@kalki33>, kalki33!system@lakes writes:
>> >> >Read the book.
>> >Read the book.
>> Is this your new chant?

>We think you're a chicken, bwak, bwak, bwak! Come on, you yellow-bellied
>pseudo scientist. Put up them dukes! Awwww, does duh poor baby want
>momma to take away dat nasty pwoof? Awwww, don't cwy, baby! Momma will
>make dem nasty cweationists all go away. Den baby can have his bottle!

Such a crybaby.  Did you wet your diapers?

You're going to have to do better to convince me the book has anything
interesting to read.  So far you've convinced me that Thompson has never
even heard of broken symmetry, and hence his book is gibberish.

Tell you what.  Send me a copy, c/o Wistar Institute, Phila PA 19104.

Who's the coward now?
-- 
-Matthew P Wiener (weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu)
From: weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener)
Newsgroups: talk.origins
Subject: Re: Probability of Evolution
Date: 20 Nov 92 15:47:03 GMT
Reply-To: weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener)
Organization: The Wistar Institute of Anatomy and Biology
In-reply-to: kalki33!system@lakes.trenton.sc.us

In article <XFiFuB2w165w@kalki33>, kalki33!system@lakes writes:
>Supernovae have been observed, have they not?

According to your "where's the model" rejection of abiogenesis, no.
According to the rest of us, yes.
-- 
-Matthew P Wiener (weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu)
From: esot@troi.cc.rochester.edu (Eric Sotnak)
Newsgroups: talk.origins
Subject: Re: Laying a trap
Keywords: Computer program, random, mutation, chess
Date: 18 Nov 92 17:23:46 GMT
Organization: University of Rochester - Rochester, New York

In <Bxx5Lp.Kwr@encore.com> bseymour@encore.com (Burch Seymour) writes:
>lionel@cs.city.ac.uk (Lionel Tun) writes:
>>Would it be possible to subject ChessMover to random
>>mutations, so that eventually you evolve ChessPlayer,
>>a chess program which plays very well, say at master
>>level?

>Not likely, as that isn't how evolution works.
>What (I think) you are describing is this:

But, of course, the question wasn't whether it is LIKELY, but whether it is
POSSIBLE.  Clearly, the answer here is "yes".  But before Mr. Tun chortles
with glee about having extracted the admission that it isn't very likely,
and then goes on to make claims about the likelihood of evolutionary changes
occurring as a result of beneficial mutations, it would be wise for him to
recognize that evolution just doesn't take place by purely random mutation
over successive iterations.
--
********************************************************************
Eric Sotnak                   |  One life.
esot@troi.cc.rochester.edu    |  One chance.
From: m23364@mwunix (James Meritt)
Newsgroups: talk.origins
Subject: Re: Meritt calls Sagan Ignorant / was Re: Probability of Evolution
Date: 17 Nov 92 15:20:40 GMT
Organization: MITRE Corporation, McLean VA

In article <106@fedfil.UUCP> news@fedfil.UUCP (news) writes:
}In article <1992Nov10.131949.25778@linus.mitre.org>, m23364@mwunix (James Meritt) writes:
} 
}> To debate the probability of an event AFTER THE EVENT is merely an attempt
}> at measuring your own ignorance.  
}
}Since that is the core of the most major argument which Sagan advanced against
}Velikovsky's scenarios at the famous AAAS heresy tribunal and later in
}Pseudoscientists Confront Velikovsky, you have to assume the attempt (at 
}measuring his own ignorance) succeeded in Sagan's case.

Close.  If you could read and understand, the probabilities were given
for occurrances that did not, in the opinion of the speaker, occur.  He
was presenting probabilities for specified events, NOT those specific
events.  Do you understand the difference?  Sort of like "the probability
of me having a red car", not "the probability of my car being red".  Do
you see the difference?

}Need a yardstick there, Meritt?  The section of I95 between DC and Richmond
}is just about 100 miles, laid out pretty nearly straight.

You measure miles with a yardstick?  How odd...
Newsgroups: talk.origins
From: ds0007@medtronic.COM (Dale Skiba)
Subject: Re: Ted should repent (was Ted cleans up his act)
Organization: Medtronic, Inc.
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 14:44:15 GMT

news (news@fedfil.UUCP) wrote:
: In article <1992Nov11.022228.3663@medtron.medtronic.com>, ds0007@medtronic.COM (Dale Skiba) writes:
: > Ted you have claimed that you are a Christian. 
: 
: Now I've seen it all.  SHOW me anything of mine in which I claim to be
: a Christian.

Hmmm, I must have you confused with someone else.  In that case I must
offer you an apology.  Most people I know who are catastrophists, are 
so because it offers them a way to aparently reconcile Genesis with
some sort of scientific theory...  You seem to be an exception to this.

: Aside from Nietzsche's list of problems with Christianity (ZUR GENEOLOGIE DER
: MORAL), there is the further problemthat, were the son of GOD to actually
: appear on earth, you would figure all of mankind to hear about it in a 
: reasonable period of time, like about 48 hours.  The fact that the American
: indians went 1500 years without ever hearing about any of this gives Christians
: an awful lot of explaining to do.

This is all very debatable, and people are still arguing about this stuff in
soc.religion.*, alt.religion.*  so comments on this probably aren't relevant
here.

--
Dale Skiba
Newsgroups: talk.origins
From: rh@smds.com (Richard Harter)
Newsgroups: talk.origins
Subject: Re: Probability of Evolution
Date: 20 Nov 92 23:39:00 GMT
Reply-To: rh@ishmael.UUCP (Richard Harter)
Organization: Software Maintenance & Development Systems, Inc.

In article <1992Nov20.072816.6003@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> tlode@nyx.cs.du.edu (trygve lode) writes:

	--- The best theory of creationism that I've seen yet ---

Congratulations!
-- 
Richard Harter: SMDS Inc.  Net address: rh@smds.com Phone: 508-369-7398 
US Mail: SMDS Inc., PO Box 555, Concord MA 01742.    Fax: 508-369-8272
In the fields of Hell where the grass grows high
Are the graves of dreams allowed to die.
From: kalki33!system@lakes.trenton.sc.us
Newsgroups: talk.origins
Subject: Re: What is consciousness?
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 92 13:38:09 EST
Reply-To: kalki33!system@lakes.trenton.sc.us
Organization: Kalki's Infoline BBS, Aiken, SC, USA

kmagnacca@eagle.wesleyan.edu writes:

> In article <0mo3TB9w165w@kalki33>, kalki33!system@lakes.trenton.sc.us writes:
> > onar@hsr.no (Onar Aam) writes:
> > 
> >> >> I see. Are trees conscious? Is a virus conscious?
> >> >
> >> >Yes, trees and viruses are living beings, are they not?
> >> 
> >> Viruses alive????? Are you sure you aren't too much into New Age, Gaja and
> >> stuff?
> > 
> > Yes, i'm sure.
> 
>    What characteristic of viruses makes them alive?  I'm talking
> about an empirical characteristic like metabolism, not something
> vague like consciousness.

Since we do not consider life to be a function of matter or material
interaction (the converse is true), we do not consider this question
answerable. Life is revealed by the presence of consciousness, and if
one is unable to ascertain that there is consciousness present, then one
cannot say whether there is life. If by "characteristic of viruses" you
mean the physical properties or behavior of the material body of the
virus, then our answer is that no characteristic of viruses "makes" them
alive. Rather, it is the fact that they are alive that makes them able
to manifest these characteristics.

The virus body is perhaps the simplest of all carbon-based forms, but
carbon based forms are not the only forms in which life is found.

Sincerely,
Kalki Dasa


       -------------------------------------------------------
      |  Don't forget to chant:   Hare Krishna Hare Krishna   |
      |                           Krishna Krishna Hare Hare   |
      |                           Hare Rama Hare Rama         |
      |                           Rama Rama Hare Hare         |
      |                                                       |
      |   Kalki's Infoline BBS Aiken, South Carolina, USA     |
      |        (kalki33!kalki@lakes.trenton.sc.us)            |
       -------------------------------------------------------
From: iordonez@academ01.mty.itesm.mx (Ivan Ordonez-Reinoso)
Newsgroups: talk.origins
Subject: Re: What is consciousness?
Date: 19 Nov 92 00:51:49 GMT

kalki33!system@lakes.trenton.sc.us writes:

>We can say what consciousness is, but first we would like your opinion:
>what is it, what happens to it after death, and why?

Once I went under anesthesia for about two hours, because I had an
operation. I remember feeling funny when the pre-anesthesia started
affecting my senses, and then, I was switched off. I remember nothing,
absolutely nothing of those two hours; they disappeared from my sense of
time, and I, my consciousness, disappeared from the Universe and appeared
again later.

I think that to be dead is like being under anesthesia forever: you
become nothing at all. Why? Because your brain stops working.

--Ivan Ordonez
From: weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener)
Newsgroups: talk.origins
Subject: Re: Probability of Evolution
Date: 16 Nov 92 17:02:53 GMT
Reply-To: weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener)
Organization: The Wistar Institute of Anatomy and Biology
In-reply-to: kalki33!system@lakes.trenton.sc.us

In article <VcV9TB7w165w@kalki33>, kalki33!system@lakes writes:
>> >	   Unless a model can be shown to be correct, then it is not
>> >scientific to claim that the phenomenon occurred, is it?

>> I suppose you also agree that it was terribly unscientific to say that
>> "supernovae occur" before 1987?  Crackpot time!

>When were supernovae first observed?
>When was abiogenesis first observed?

Are you or are you not withdrawing your assertion about models being
shown correct before it is scientific to claim phenomena occur?
-- 
-Matthew P Wiener (weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu)
Newsgroups: talk.origins
From: kalki33!system@lakes.trenton.sc.us
Newsgroups: talk.origins
Subject: Re: Probability of Evolution
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 92 05:55:39 EST
Reply-To: kalki33!system@lakes.trenton.sc.us
Organization: Kalki's Infoline BBS, Aiken, SC, USA

kv07@IASTATE.EDU (Warren Vonroeschlaub) writes:

> > > Kalki Dasa writes:
> > > 
> > > >First point: The known laws of physics possess low information content.
> > > >Second point: biological organisms possess high information content.
> > > 
> > >> First point:  The rules of chess possess low information content
> > >> Second point: the number of possible games are some 10^70 i.e. high
> informati
> > >> content.
> > 
> > So, you agree with our two stipulations?
> > 
> > Has anyone ever observed a game of chess being played at random, without
> > the moves being made by either human beings or by a machine constructed
> > by human beings? Has this ever happened?
> 
>   Has anyone ever seen the universe act totally at random?  Laws are laws.  Y
> are ignoring the relationship.
> 
> > Before this can work, r0 must be specified and X0 must be specified.
> 
>   Look: something existed on the primordal Earth.  There, initial conditions.
> Happy?

Yes, thank you!

Sincerely,
Kalki "your brain is not the boss" Dasa


       -------------------------------------------------------
      |  Don't forget to chant:   Hare Krishna Hare Krishna   |
      |                           Krishna Krishna Hare Hare   |
      |                           Hare Rama Hare Rama         |
      |                           Rama Rama Hare Hare         |
      |                                                       |
      |   Kalki's Infoline BBS Aiken, South Carolina, USA     |
      |        (kalki33!kalki@lakes.trenton.sc.us)            |
       -------------------------------------------------------
From: rh@smds.com (Richard Harter)
Newsgroups: talk.origins
Subject: Re: Questions for Ted H.
Date: 22 Nov 92 21:23:35 GMT
Reply-To: rh@ishmael.UUCP (Richard Harter)
Organization: Software Maintenance & Development Systems, Inc.

In article <118@fedfil.UUCP> news@fedfil.UUCP (news) writes:

Two articles in a row: Scatological references: 0

Three cheers for Ted.
-- 
Richard Harter: SMDS Inc.  Net address: rh@smds.com Phone: 508-369-7398 
US Mail: SMDS Inc., PO Box 555, Concord MA 01742.    Fax: 508-369-8272
In the fields of Hell where the grass grows high
Are the graves of dreams allowed to die.
Newsgroups: aus.netstatus
From: schuller@mullauna.cs.mu.OZ.AU (Wayne Schuller)
Subject: look for Ballarat U.C. system administrator...
Organization: Computer Science, University of Melbourne, Australia
Distribution: aus
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 04:10:18 GMT


I am not sure where to ask this so I may have to ask around the place...
I am looking for the email address of the system administrator at Ballarat
University College.
If somebody could mail me his name and internet address that would be very 
convenient thank you very much.
I really need to know this within the next few weeks so could somebody (from
BUC) especially please help me.
Thank you for your time, friends.
schuller@mullauna.cs.mu.oz.au
From: scott_d@kosmos.wcc.govt.nz
Newsgroups: aus.ai
Subject: Grad study in AI field
Date: 15 Nov 1992 23:52:20 GMT
Organization: Wellington City Council (Public Access), Wgtn, Nz
Reply-To: scott_d@kosmos.wcc.govt.nz
NNTP-Posting-Host: kosmos.wcc.govt.nz

Hi - I apologise if this is posted in the wrong area or if the
subject has been brought up before.  My question is which
Australian universities offer PhD programs in the A.I. area and how
do they rate compared with other Australian and USA universities?
 
Any comments would be greatly appreciated.  Thank you,
Darrin Scott (scott_d@kosmos.wcc.govt.nz)
Newsgroups: aus.radio
From: steve@fawlty.towers.oz.au (Steve Blanche)
Subject: Re: Fees (was Re: antennae for scanning on 2m/70cm/23cm)
Reply-To: steve@fawlty.towers.oz.au (Steve Blanche)
Organization: Tower Technology, Sydney
Distribution: aus
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 01:26:26 GMT

In article <1795@eram.esi.COM.AU> dave@eram.esi.COM.AU (Dave Horsfall) writes:
>
>
>You got it.  It's easier to say "I can't afford it!" rather than say "I'm
>not going to renew my membership because I think the WIA stinks, but I am
>incapable of forming a coherent argument, because Mr Ed has done it for me,
>so instead I'll say I can't afford it."  Boy, you should see some of the
>remarks on the rejected renewals that crossed our desk...
>
Please tell us a few!
Also, I keep seeing references to "Mr Ed"  I know who it refers to Dave,
but does Mr Ed mean Mr Editor, or is it a reference to Mr Ed the talking
horse ? if the latter,  I think its derogatry to animals !!! because
Mr. Ed the talking horse has a much higher level of intelligence !!!

steve


-- 
| Steven Blanche, Davidson, Sydney   | AARNet  steve@fawlty.towers.oz.au |
| vk2kfj%vk2kfj@vk2xsb.nsw.aus.oc    | wk phone :    +612-427-2999       |
| VK2KFJ [44.136.8.6] (4800@144.800) | wk fax   :    +612-427-7072       |
Newsgroups: aus.radio
From: "colin mcgregor" <colin.mcgregor@canrem.com>
Subject: science fiction hams
Reply-To: "colin mcgregor" <colin.mcgregor@canrem.com>
Organization: Canada Remote Systems
Distribution: aus
Date: 17 Nov 92 22:45:22 EST

This message is aimed at ham radio operators who plan (hope?) to be
at next year's World Science Fiction Convention in San Francisco
(ConFrancisco).

First a bit of history. At the 1991 convention Avery Davis WB4RTP
started a collection of amateur callsigns. Then shortly before this
years convention he sent out a letter to all of the hams he had met
in 1991, attempting to (sort of) organize the hams he encountered.
The result was quite pleasant, having several people at the con
with whom the discussion could switch easily between my two
favourite topics, science fiction and ham radio. Now, I am looking
to help expand on what Avery Davis did last year. I have been in
touch with the hams that I met at the 1992 convention, at least the
ones I have e-mail address(es) for. If I have not been in touch with
you, and you plan to be at ConFrancisco please send me your name,
e-mail address, and callsign.

It looks like we will have a panel on ham radio at ConFrancisco.
What I would foresee for this panel is an introduction to ham
radio, attempting to get people interested in ham radio. This is
something I want to help with but it is not something I can do
alone. I'm not even sure if I ought to be taking the lead in this
one. I know the Canadian rules/regs, but I'm not very familiar with
the U.S. rules/regs let alone how the U.S. V.E. system works (and
I am clueless re: Australian rules/regs). I'm just getting my 
T.N.C. for packet operation up and running, and I don't (yet) have 
a HF station up and running. In other words, I don't know enough 
(yet) to hope do a successful panel alone. So, who would like to 
be a part of (run?) a ham radio panel?

I have been making enquiries about getting my call sign/e-mail
address put in small print under my "regular" name for my
ConFrancisco name badge. It can be arranged, and anyone else who
would like it done on their name badge should contact:
72377.3623@compuserve.com <Kevin Standlee> or ConFrancisco, Attn:
Registrar, 712 Bancroft Road, Suite 1993, Walnut Creek, CA, 94598,
U.S.A..

Also, I'm interested in putting on a ham radio party in San
Francisco for science fiction hams and ham want-a-bees. How many
people would be interested?

Finally I have been in touch with a ham who lives in the San
Francisco area who says he MAY (and at this point I will put some
emphasis on the word MAY) be able to get access for ConFrancisco
hams on a San Francisco area 2 metre repeater.

VE3ZAA
---
  DeLuxe 1.12 #5634  colin.mcgregor@canrem.com
--
Canada Remote Systems  - Toronto, Ontario
World's Largest PCBOARD System - 416-629-7000/629-7044
From: dave@eram.esi.COM.AU (Dave Horsfall)
Newsgroups: aus.radio
Subject: Daily IPS Report - 18 Nov 92
Date: 18 Nov 92 08:43:47 GMT
Distribution: aus
Organization: Pacific ESI, Sydney, AUSTRALIA

IPS RADIO AND SPACE SERVICES AUSTRALIA
Daily Solar And Geophysical Report
Issued at 2330 UT 17 November 1992
Summary for 17 November and Forecast up to 20 November
No IPS warning is current.
-----------------------------------------------------------

1A. SOLAR SUMMARY
Activity: low

Flares: none.

Observed 10.7 cm flux/Equivalent Sunspot Number : 152/105

1B. SOLAR FORECAST
             18 November        19 November        20 November
Activity     Low                Low                Low
Fadeouts     None expected      None expected      None expected

Forecast 10.7 cm flux/Equivalent Sunspot Number : 150/103

1C. SOLAR COMMENT
None.
-----------------------------------------------------------

2A. MAGNETIC SUMMARY
Geomagnetic field at Learmonth : quiet

Estimated Indices : A   K           Observed A Index 16 November
    Learmonth       05  2221 1221
    Fredericksburg  07                          07
    Planetary       07                          07


2B. MAGNETIC FORECAST
Geomagnetic field at Learmonth : quiet to unsettled
Ap :  10

2C. MAGNETIC COMMENT
None.

3A. GLOBAL HF PROPAGATION SUMMARY
Propagation conditions :         
Low Lats: good.
Mid Lats: good.
High Lats: poor to fair.
PCA Event : None.
3B. GLOBAL HF PROPAGATION FORECAST
Propagation conditions are expected to be good at low and mid lats,
amd poor to fair at high lats.
3C. GLOBAL HF PROPAGATION COMMENT
None.

-----------------------------------------------------------

4A. AUSTRALIAN REGION IONOSPHERIC SUMMARY
MUFs at Sydney were near normal, apart from enhancements of 15-30%
from 05-11 UT, and 14-18 UT.

Observed Sydney Regional Ionospheric Index : 112

4B. AUSTRALIAN REGION IONOSPHERIC FORECAST
          18 November           19 November        20 November
MUFs depressed 10-20%/normal    near normal        near normal
T index    50                    70                 70

Predicted Monthly Ionospheric Index for November is 70.

4C. AUSTRALIAN REGION COMMENT
Depressions of 10-20% are expected during local daylight hours today.
Sporadic E layer was present for most of the 17th, and is expected
to be present for much of today.

-- 
Dave Horsfall (VK2KFU)         VK2KFU @ VK2RWI.NSW.AUS.OC
dave@esi.COM.AU                ...munnari!esi.COM.AU!dave
           Disclaimer: "Me, speak for us?"
Newsgroups: aus.radio
From: richardm@runx.oz.au (Richard Murnane)
Subject: Re: VK2WI Weekly News, 15th November, 1992
Organization: RUNX Un*x Timeshare.  Sydney, Australia.
Distribution: aus
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 92 19:35:01 GMT

In article <1992Nov14.202427.28445@runx.oz.au> richardm@runx.oz.au (Richard Murnane) writes:
>
>Last weekend, WICEN was active at four events: the
>Shoalhaven Action for Autism triathlon in Nowra, Police Open
>Days at Wyong and The Entrance, and of course the Triple-M
>Sydney Triathlon on the Northern Beaches.
>
...not to mention the Wombeyan Cave Rescue exercise. My apologies to John
Buxton VK2GJB for that omission.

73 de Richard VK2SKY

-- 
Richard P. Murnane                     "Making it up? Making it up? Why should
Internet: richardm@runx.oz.au          I want to make anything up? Life's bad
UUCP:     uunet!runx.oz.au!richardm    enough without inventing more of it."
Packet:   VK2SKY @ VK2RWI.NSW.AUS.OC   - Marvin the Paranoid Android
Newsgroups: aus.radio,rec.radio.amateur.misc,aus.radio.amsat
From: wkt@csadfa.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey)
Subject: PACSAT server src code wanted
Organization: Australian Defence Force Academy, Canberra, Australia
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 02:06:39 GMT

We are looking into the use of the PACSAT hole-filling broadcast protocol
here for terrestrial use (BBS forwarding) on HF in country Australia where
there are isolated and thinly-populated amateur communities.

The client side of the protocol is freely available. We are now after the
``satellite'' side of the protocol, especially in source form, so that it
can be tailored to suit our needs (i.e no need for telemetry).

If anyone has pointers to this software, could they please email me at
my following address:   wkt@csadfa.cs.adfa.oz.au


Many thanks in advance.

	Warren vk1xwt