From: tguez@jade.tufts.edu (Name)
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.misc
Subject: Re: Windows == OS
Date: 28 Aug 92 06:05:36 GMT
	<1992Aug25.040007.5898@cco.caltech.edu>
	<TGUEZ.92Aug25151752@jade.tufts.edu>
	<1992Aug26.044858.25614@cco.caltech.edu>
	<TGUEZ.92Aug26163457@jade.tufts.edu>
	<1992Aug27.001245.10197@cco.caltech.edu>
Organization: Tufts University - Medford, MA

It does not matter how I installed QEMM (as long as it works),
and if it is anyone's fault that it is not installed properly,
it's the installation program's fault.  Have I used emm, and it
would have informed windows that there was a problem and windows
would of consequently displayed a dialog box is of no material
here.  It does not matter who informs the user of the error, it
is important who takes care of things.  If window's would of
displayed dialog boxes, and qemm or emm would of never display
the error themselves, then I would have no argument, but that
would only credit windows with a good job at hiding, not
managing things.  



Clearly, you seem to miss the point every time.  It is not
argued that windows does not take care of memory management for
it's environment, it is argued that windows does not take care
of system-wide memory management-- as an operating system should.



Your response to the virtual machines paragraph clearly shows
that you have absolutely no idea what virtual machines are. 
Therefore, let me teach you a little about them:



Conceptually a computer system is made up of layers.  The
hardware is the lowest level.  The kernel running at the next
level utilizes the hardware to create a set of system calls to
be used by higher layers (this is operating system APIs).  The
system programs are the next level, above the kernel, and are
allowed to use either system calls or hardware calls to enrich
the set of system APIs.  There is a vague line between system
programs API and the kernel's API, and sometimes there is no
telling apart.  System programs view the hardware and kernel
calls as if they were at the same level-- kernel functions are
thought to bootstrap the hardware.  On some systems this is
carried even further, and application programs are allowed to
make system calls.  The application views everything underneath
it in this hierarchy as though it is apart of the machine itself.



The logical extension of this approach, and also the conclusion
of this approach is reached in the concept of virtual machines. 
The development of CPU scheduling algorithms and virtual-memory
techniques made it possible for an operating system to create
the illusion of multiple processes.  This virtual machine
concept does not provide any additional functionally, it
provides multiple, identical virtual copies of the bare
underlying hardware.  Virtual machines are obliged, by their
nature and concept, to support virtual disk-drives, virtual
printers (otherwise known as spooling) and (even) virtual tape
drivers.  A process or a user that is given a virtual machine
can run any software that is available to the underline machine.
On the VM operating system (which I mistook for the CP/M, in an
earlier post) , which IBM wrote, the user would typically run a
single-user operating system, I think it's the CMS operating
system.  Yes, here you have a classical scenario of an operating
system nested within an operating system.  However, notice that
the inner operating system does not depend on the services of
the outer operating system, it does not even know of it's
existence-- long way from DOS/Windows relationship.  I would
love to go an and explain to you these concepts but I really
would rather spend my time more productively.



I have tried very hard to keep away from these formal discussions and
to bring out examples that would clearly imply a sort of DOS/Windows
dependency that is not consistent with a true operating system.
However, you have repeatedly misunderstood my simple and subtle
arguments for ignorant arguments and pulled my tongue by the low use
of personal remarks.  If you still don't get the picture, then I feel
very sorry for you.  Simple windows reactions could easily shoot it
down as an operating system, as Erike van Linstee
(linstee@dutecaj.et.tudelft.nl) put one example, "Ever hear of an OS
you can quit and still have a functioning machine?!"

OS/2 is design the way windows should have been designed, 
was it an operating system:

  +------------+     +------------+     +------------+
  |            |     |            |     |            |
  | Application|     | Application|     | Application|
  |            |     |            |     |            |
  +------------+     +------------+     +------------+
+======================================================+
| +----------------------------------+..............+  |
| | application programming interface| API extension|  |
| +----------------------------------+..............+  |
|                                                      |
| +-----------+ +-----------+            +-----------+ |
| | subsystem | | subsystem |            | subsystem | |
| +-----------+ +-----------+............+-----------+ |
| +--------------------------------------------------+ |
| |                                                  | |
| |                                                  | |
| |       system kernel                              | |
| |                           memory management      | |
| |                           task dispatching       | |
| |                           device management      | |
| +--------------------------------------------------+ |
| +--------+    +--------+   +--------+     +--------+ |
| | device |    | device |   | device |     | device | |
| | driver |    | driver |   | driver |     | driver | |
| +--------+    +--------+   +--------+     +--------+ |
+======================================================+


MS-DOS is one of those operating system that started as a small,
simple and limited system, and is know in the mids of growing beyond
it's intendent scope.  Although MS-DOS has some structure, it's level
of functionality are not well separated:

     +----------------------------------------------+
     |             application program              |
     +----------------------------------------------+
           |                            |
           |                            |
     +---------------------------+      |
     |   resident system program |      |
     +---------------------------+      |
           |                  |         |
           |                  |         |
     +----------------+       |         |
     | MS-DOS device  |       |         |
     |   drivers      |       |         |
     +----------------+       |         |
           |                  |         |
     +----------------------------------------------+
     |           ROM BIOS device drivers            |
     +----------------------------------------------+


This how window seems to look like:

        +=============== Some Larger Frame =================+
        |                        |                          |
        | +--------------------+ | +----------------------+ |
        | | applications (dos) | | | Windows Applications | |
        | +--------------------+ | +----------------------+ |
        |                        |                          |
        +------------------------+==========================+
                   |             |     Window's Engine      |
                   |             +--------------------------+
                   |             |   Kernel   |   memory    |
                   |             | device man | management  |
+--------------------------------+--------------------------+
|     application program        | window's device drivers**|
+--------------------------------+==========================+
|                    command  interpreters                  |
+-----------------------------------------------------------+
      |            |          |       |    |
      +------------+----------+-------+    | * Notice the 
      |                       |            | soup between DOS
+--------------------------+  |            | device drivers
| resident system program  |  |            | and window's
+--------------------------+  |            | device drivers
      |      |           |    |            |
      |      |           |    |            |
+----------------+       |    |            |
| MS-DOS device  |       |    |            |
|   drivers      |       |    |            |
+----------------+       |    |            |
      |      |           |    |            |
+----------------------------------------------+
|           ROM BIOS device drivers            |
+----------------------------------------------+

** I am not sure if window's drivers go into the level
of MS-DOS device drivers, or should they appear in both
places.

MS-DOS is not structured well, and windows sorts
of expands,replaces,intervines, completes, layers 
and integrates into DOS.  DOS is still the dominant
operating system at all times.  Windows looks more
like a shell that breaks the rules and does things
that it should not than an operating system.

I'll tell you what.  I could go over the acceptible definitons of an
operating systems but arguing with you is really hopeless.  Since you
are soooo concerned to get an absolute decision if windows is or is
not an operating system rather then exploring the holes and the
inconsistency each view creates, I'll just destroy this silley view
now:

Bare hardware alone is nothing, it's like a human body with all the
integral parts except the nerves to connect them all.  An operating
system alone performs no useful function by itself (io.sys, and
bios.sys without command.com, clearer now?).  An operating system can
also be viewed as a resource allocator, allocates resources to programs
(memory for command.com, for instance).  There is no universally
accepted defintion of what is a part of the operating system or not.
However, there is one thing that appears in absolutely every operating
system, and this single thing logically follows from any single statement
about an opearting system.  I'll use simple words, now, so you'll be
sure to understand:

An operating system is the one program running at all times on the
computer, with all else being programs.

>   Aggravatedly,
>   Heath

Entertained,
Tomer

               
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.misc