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Date:         Wed, 4 Nov 1992 11:55:25 CST
Reply-To:     bradk@isdgsm.rtsg.mot.com
From:         "(Brad Kaiser)" <bradk%isdgsm@RTSG.MOT.COM>
Subject:      Re: Jesse puttin' money where his mouth is!!
              Nov 4, 92 11:24 am

Jesse writes:

> Dear All on Christia ;
>
> I am saying this as a public post.
> This is in reply to Brad Kaiser who made the assertion that firstly, I was
> being a racist and secondly, that I needed to support MY assertion regarding
> the Council of Trent PUBLICALLY.

This is referring to a private email conversation Jesse and I had this
morning.  I did not accuse Jesse of being a racist.  I did accuse him
of perpetuating racist stereotypes by his "joke".

> So, what I did was to speak in "american" dialect, phonically, as if a
> person from the East were attempting to speak english, but with difficulty.
> My motive was to use humour to cool down a bit, rather than scathe at Brad.
                       ^^^^^^

The email in question was not humorous, it was an insult to people of
Asian ancestry.  I accept that Jesse did not intend it as such, I simply
wanted him to understand that I do not find that kind of thing funny,
nor do I find it to acceptable behavior for Christians.

I do not wish to "cool down", nor do I wish to scathe at anyone.  I
wish Jesse to stop misrepresenting my beliefs in this forum.  I am
abundantly capable of misrepresenting my own beliefs in this forum,
thank you very much.

> Seriously though, I was accused of not being forthright in the most pointed
> of terms.  Now, I CAN go to the Council of Trent and support my position
> against Free Will by indicating what ROME   O F F I C I A L L Y    teaches.
> If someone out there wants me to put my money, PUBLICALLY, where my mouth
> is, I am willing to do it.

Then do so.  As soon as possible.

> Otherwise I would like Brad to research this
> himself.

Fine.  Here is what Trent said, what ROME O F F I C I A L L Y teaches,
on the question of free will and prevenient inspiration (this is the
second time I have posted this on this forum!):

  2. If anyone says that divine grace is given through Jesus Christ
     merely to facilitate man's living justly and meriting everlasting
     life, as if he could accomplish both, although with great
     difficulty, by his free will without grace: let him be anathema.

  3. If anyone says that without the Holy Spirit's prevenient [from
     the Latin, literally, "coming before" (BK)] inspiration and without
     His help man can believe, hope, and love, or be repentant as is
     required if the grace of justification is to be given to him: let
     him be anathema.

  22. If anyone says that without God's special help it is possible
      for a justified man to persevere in the justice he has received,
      or says that with God's special help it is impossible: let him
      be anathema.

     [Decree on Justification, Council of Trent, 6th Session;
     Translation from "The Church Teaches", Clarkson, Edwards, Kelly,
     and Welch; (Tan Books, 1973), pp. 242, 245]

Also, as I pointed out yesterday, Trent and Orange cannot contradict
each other.  Any assumed contradiction is a fault in one's interpretation.

> And serious research is somethin' many on the "net" need to do
> more

Quite true.

> Rather sad over it all, really   :-(
> Jesse Carnes

Rather tired of people telling me what I believe without evidence to
back up their assertions!

In Christ's Love,

Brad Kaiser
(bradk%isdgsm@rtsg.mot.com)

     "Millions of people in the United States hate what they
      believe the Catholic Church to be.  Not one hundred hate
      what the Catholic Church actually is."
                  -- Bishop Fulton J. Sheen
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