HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: braun@vanilla.fmi.uni-passau.de (Carsten Braun)
Subject: Re: Greek and Roman Mythology (A question about Apollo)
Organization: University of Passau, Germany
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 17:54:39 GMT

In article <1992Jul24.174605.33171@watson.ibm.com>, yozzo@watson.ibm.com writes:
> From what I've read of Greek and Roman mythology, it appears to me
> that the Roman Mythology is borrowed (other words could be used)
> from the Greeks.  The Romans then renamed all the gods.
> 
> That is, excepting Apollo.  Is it true that Apollo is the only
> god with the same name in both Greek and Roman mythology?
> And if so, does anyone know why?
> 
> And why is that the Romans borrowed their myths from the Greeks
> and did not invent their own?
> 
> One possible answer follows:
> 
> From what I've read, the Romans did have gods before being influenced by
> Greek mythology.  But their gods were of the formless, lifeless,
> awe-inspiring type.  The Romans must have liked the way the Greeks gave
> human characteristics to their gods.  And decided to adopt the Greek
> mythology.  The Romans matched the functions of their gods to the Greeks
> and went through a renaming process.  For example, Jupiter (Jove) was the
> Roman ruler of the gods and Zeus was his Greek counterpart.  Therefore,
> Jupiter took on the characteristics of Zeus.  And likewise for the
> following pairs:  Hera-Juno, Artemis-Diana, Hermes-Mercury, Cronus-Saturn,
> Hades-Pluto, Aphrodite-Venus, Poseidon-Neptune, Hephaestus-Vulcan,
> Ares-Mercury, Athena-Minerva, Demeter-?.  Hestia-?, ?-Uranus, ...

 
I've just discovered this cute news-group :)

As far as i remember my high school latin courses Ares & Mercury don't match.
The roman counterpart of Ares , the god of war , was called Mars. That's the
latin name , probably the form used in English may sound a bit different.


> Apollo was probably a Greek god that had no equivalent Latin counterpart
> and therefore the Roman borrowed even the name in this case.
> 
> Ralph Yozzo
From: mmussell@fmgu25.intel.com (Morgan Mussell ~)
Newsgroups: alt.mythology
Subject: Re: Faerie request
Date: 28 Jul 92 18:29:51 GMT

Interesting and classic study is Lawrence Evans-Wentz's "The Fairy Faith In
Celtic Countrys," which he wrote as his doctoral thesis in the early years
of this century.  He tramped the backroads of Ireland (sometimes with Yeats
if I recall rightly), Scotland, Wales, Cornwall, and Brittainy, when it was
still possible to meet isolated people who had experience of fairy phenom-
ena.  He collected both first hand accounts and legends.  He undertook this
study because growing up in Marin county, he'd had an unshakeable feeling
there were "spirits" in the surrounding country.  He went first to Europe
to study lore of others who believed this, and then to India and Tibet,
where his works on Eastern belief systems (eg., Tibetan book of the Dead)
are his best known efforts.

Other than that, I would just browse, browse, browse.  

Morgan Mussell  mmussell@mcd.intel.com

Newsgroups: alt.mythology
From: jchokey@leland.Stanford.EDU (James Alexander Chokey)
Subject: Re: Odin's stolen drink
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 92 03:00:10 GMT

In article <loren.159.0@wmkt.wharton.upenn.edu> loren@wmkt.wharton.upenn.edu (Loren Miller) writes:
>I was leafing through the Stith Thompson motif index and found a reference 
>to a myth where Odin stole a drink from a race of gods and it gave him 
>something. I remember the story where he gave his eye for a drink from a 
>well that gave him wisdom in return, and I remember him hanging on a gallows 
>for a few days before gaining something (the runes?), but I don't remember 
>any situation where he stole a drink of nectar from some other race of gods. 
>Anybody recall this?
>
	
	Hmm. Sounds like the "Poetic Diction" section of Snorri Sturluson's
_Prose Edda_, that explains the origins of poetry.   If I remember correctly,
the gods were at war with the Vanir, and when peace was established it was
done so by having the combattants spit into a cauldron.  The gods took this
cauldron and made of it a man named Kvasir, who was supposed to be the
wisest being in the world.  Kvasir liked to travel, and one day he came 
across two dwarves who killed him, drained his blood into a cauldron and made
mead with it.
	One day these dwarves met a giant and asked him to go rowing with
him on a lake.  When they got to the center of the lake, the dwarves upset
the boat, and the giant drowned.  They went back to the giant's house and
told his wife that her husband had drowned.  She, needless to say, was 
distraught and went outside to look out at the lake where her husband now
lay.  As she was standing there, the dwarves rolled a boulder from the
cliff above onto her head, killing her. (Nice guys, weren't they!)
	The giants' son, Sutting, came to avenge his parents and caught up 
with the dwarves.  Just as he was about to kill them, they offered him the
mead in exchange for their lives.  He accepted.
	One day, Odin was travelling around the world and lodged in the home
of Baugi, Suttung's brother.  Baugi was upset because all of his serfs
had died. (Odin had actually killed them ear lier in his travels, but Baugi
didn't know that.)  Odin promised Baugi that he would do all the work of
the dead men in exchange for one sip of the mead that his brother had gained
from the dwarves. At first, Baugi refused, saying that the mead was not his
to dispose of, but he ultimately gave in.  After Odin worked for Baugi for
a whole summer, Baugi went to his brother and asked him for one sip's worth
of mead.  Suttung refused.  So, Odin and Baugi bored through the mountain 
in which Suttung lived.  After they had made a small hole leading into 
Suttung's lair, Odin changed his form into a snake and entered.  He drank up 
all the mead, changed his form to an eagle, and flew back to Asgard, where
he vomited up the mead that he had swallowed so that it could be used by
the gods and men.

	--  Jim C. <jchokey@leland.stanford.edu>
From: ingria@bbn.com (Bob Ingria)
Newsgroups: alt.mythology
Subject: Re: The creation of Eve
Date: 29 Jul 1992 18:18:31 GMT
Reply-To: ingria@BBN.COM
NNTP-Posting-Host: bbn.com
In-reply-to: snow@netcom.com's message of 28 Jul 92 19:49:01 GMT

In article <84mmqbn.snow@netcom.com> snow@netcom.com (Tim Szeliga) writes:

   >Question: does anyone know about residuals of the ancestral cult of the 
   >Mother Goddess in the Bible?

   Get "The Women's Encyclopaedia of Myth, Ritual  and Secrets" by Barbara Walker
   She deals extensively with this topic.

Take Walker with a shakerful of salt.  She's quite credulous at
points.

-30-
Bob
From: monaghan@carson.u.washington.edu (Tracy Monaghan)
Newsgroups: alt.mythology
Subject: Re: How was Man created? (according to Greek Mythology)
Date: 23 Jul 92 21:42:37 GMT
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle

In article <1992Jul23.201036.13169@watson.ibm.com> yozzo@watson.ibm.com writes:
>
>First of all, is it true that Epimetheus is treated badly by the
>Greek myths?   And if so, what is the reason?
>

In Hesiod's "Theogony", Epimetheus is described as one "who was faulty in
judgement and from the beginning was an evil for men who work for their bread.
For he was the first to accept from Zeus the virgin woman he had formed"
(Pandora).

Prometheus means "forethinker" or he who plans ahead.
Epimetheus means "hindthinker" or he who plans too late.

Tracy

"Since you cannot be my wife,
you shall be my tree"
      -  Apollo to Daphne
From: rivk@quads.uchicago.edu (nora gayle rivkis)
Newsgroups: alt.mythology
Subject: Help with Fates
Date: 23 Jul 92 21:01:01 GMT
Reply-To: rivk@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations


Can someone please tell me what the names of the three Fates
were, and which one did which job? Thanks very much.
Newsgroups: alt.mythology
From: jlmiller@hamp.hampshire.edu
Subject: Re: Who was Chu-Chu-Lain?
Organization: Hampshire College
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 19:03:23 GMT

Hi. I'm new here, but I thought I'd try to answer this question...as best as I
can remember (my referrance books are a few hundred miles away). Chuculain was
a Milesian (sp?) hero in Ireland who fought a great war against Queen Maeve
(you would probably know her better as "Queen Mab" from Romeo and Juliet) and
her allies, the Firbolgs (big, giant, hairy men). These two groups had ruled
Ireland before the Milesians conquered it.

Very great story, very tragic...Chuculain must kill his friend (whose name I
cannot for the life of me remember), a firbolg, before the war is over. The
Milesians win, of course...and from them descend the Irish.

Oh yeah, he had an incredible horse (I don't know if it came from Faerie) and a 
spear that shared many qualities with Arthur's Excalibur.

Hope this helps.

jonathan.
From: ingria@bbn.com (Bob Ingria)
Newsgroups: alt.mythology
Subject: Re: How was Man created? (according to Greek Mythology)
Date: 21 Jul 92 20:39:30 GMT
Reply-To: ingria@BBN.COM
NNTP-Posting-Host: bbn.com
In-reply-to: yozzo@watson.ibm.com's message of 16 Jul 92 17:54:00 GMT

In article <1992Jul16.175400.31576@watson.ibm.com> yozzo@watson.ibm.com writes:
   In  <1992Jul16.155131.29960@u.washington.edu>  monaghan@carson.u.washington.edu (Tracy Monaghan) writes:
   > I will not get involved in the discussion of how women were created :)

   Thanks for the pointer.

   Since you bring up the subject of the creation of woman, from what I
   understand of Greek mythology the first women was Pandora (meaning
   Gift from us all).  The gods created Pandora as a gift to mankind and
   each god gave her a gift.  Venus gave her beauty.  Hermes gave her a
   box which he told her she should never open.  And Hera, out of the
   kindness of her heart, gave her insatiable curiosity.  (Hera was never
   one to miss an opportunity to stir up trouble.)

   Pandora was given to man and needless to say she opened the box
   and out sprang all the calamities and plagues that mankind
   has ever known.  According to one story, Prometheus had the
   foresight to place blind hope in the box and it too escaped.

   Mankind can withstand all the plagues and calamities because
   "where's there's life, there's hope and need of vittles" (as the
   old gaffer used to say)

It sounds like you're confounding Hesiod's account with Aeschylus'.

In Hesiod, ``elpis'' is left in the box (actually a pithos storage
jug).  Now ``elpis'' can be translated as ``hope'', but its basic
meaning is ``expectation''.  Presumably, the reason for elpis'
presence in the box is that the worst calamity of all is to know what
horrible fate(s) await you.

In the ``Prometheus Bound'', Prometheus states that one of his gifts
to mankind was blind faith (sorry, I can't remember the Greek) which
caused humans to not foresee and be overcome by the horrors awaiting
them.

-30-
Bob
Newsgroups: alt.mythology
From: graham@sees.bangor.ac.uk (The Land of Confusion)
Subject: Re: Who was Chu-Chu-Lain?
Organization: University College of N Wales, Bangor
Distribution: alt
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 16:36:38 GMT
X-Posted-From: sol.sees.bangor.ac.uk
X-Posted-Through: sol.ctr.columbia.edu


In article <2A6B1C03.66DC@deneva.sdd.trw.com>, shrdlu@willow.sdd.trw.com (Lynda L. True) writes:
> In article <LINDA.92Jul20150408@honi.uni-paderborn.de> linda@uni-paderborn.de (Linda Floren) writes:
> >Who was Chu-Chu-Lain? (Spelling is only a wild guess!)
> >He must have been an Irish hero in the times of Finn McCool. 
> 
> Read "The Red Brand" by Morgan Llewellyn for an excellent rendition of
> the Cuchullain (pronounced APPROXIMATELY Coo-hu-len) legend...
> 
> Or you can go directly to the Mabingingon (sp?) for an older telling
                                ^^^^^^^^^^^

                                Mabinogion


> of it (and it was Llewellyn's source anyway).
> -- 
> Of course I don't SPEAK for TRW; they pay me to THINK for them.
> 
> shrdlu@rowan.sdd.trw.com (Lynda L. True)
> Work Phone - (310) 812-1660 or (310) 812-1570
 

--
graham a stephen                        ``The only key to your riddle is
(e-mail: graham@sees.bangor.ac.uk)        to accept the absence of a key.''
                                              --  Laibach, 1992     
Aposiopesis is not really all that it
Newsgroups: alt.mythology
Subject: Re: Greek and Roman Mythology (A question about A
From: jphekman@husc9.Harvard.EDU (Jessica Hekman)
Date: 30 Jul 92 16:36:40 EDT
 <1992Jul24.192317.11083@u.washington.edu> <4788@calmasd.Prime.COM> <1992Jul27.162230.24429@u.washington.edu>
Distribution: world
Organization: Harvard University Science Center

In regards to the current debate about the cause of the similarity between Greek and Roman myths, I'd like to relate some interesting info I came across the other day (in _Celtic Mythology_ by Rutherford).  Rutherford postulates that the Greek and Roman gods, as well as Celtic, Hindu, Persian, etc. gods all came from the gods of one common people, the Indo-Europeans, from whom all these different nationalities developed.  Thus, the Greek and Roman gods are the most similar because those two peoples lived r





elatively close to each other (as opposed to the Celts and the Indians) and their 2 culutres did not diverge as much as other cultures did.
Newsgroups: alt.mythology
From: cpshelle@jeeves.uwaterloo.ca (cameron shelley)
Subject: Re: The creation of Eve
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 20:06:52 GMT

sindiogi@dewey.NMSU.Edu (INDIOGINE) writes:
> Question: the creation of Eve in Genesis chapter 2 (?) involves one of
> Adam's ribs. I read somewhere (? I do not remember where) that the story 
> can only be understtod correctly by knowing Sumerian mythology. Eden itself
> is a Sumerian name for instance. If  I remember correctly, the rib is
> somehow associated with a flower that grows in marshes in Southern Mesopota-
> mia. 
> Can anybody give some info about this?!
> Question: does anyone know about residuals of the ancestral cult of the 
> Mother Goddess in the Bible?

Have a look at the following (with the usual grain of salt):

----8<-------------------------------------------------------------------
author:    Graves, R., Patai, R.
title:     Hebrew Myths: the book of Genesis

publisher: Arena  (1963) 1989
isbn:      0-099-56310-X
call_no:
keys:      myth near_east
comments:  an excellent source book, in the same format as _The Greek
           Myths_.  The speculative sections are more credible than
           some others books of his.
           Topics:  covers the territory between the Creation and the
           death of Joseph.
----8<-------------------------------------------------------------------

</dev/cam
--
      Cameron Shelley        | "Syllogism, n.  A logical formula consisting
cpshelle@jeeves.uwaterloo.ca |  of a major and a minor assumption and an
    Davis Centre Rm 2136     |  inconsequent."
 Phone (519) 885-1211 x3390  |				Ambrose Bierce
Xref: sparky alt.mythology:1500 sci.classics:559
From: lim@pecan.cns.udel.edu (Julie Lim)
Newsgroups: alt.mythology,sci.classics
Subject: Re: That Owl
Date: 22 Jul 92 02:11:06 GMT
Organization: University of Delaware, Newark

In article <l6otulINNg3h@news.bbn.com> ingria@BBN.COM writes:

>I don't know about buas, but the standard name for owl in classical
>Greek, especially the owl of Athens, is glauks (whence glaukoma).  In
>Homer, Athena is referred to as ``owl-eyed'' (glaukopis).


	Right idea, wrong meaning. _Glaukos_ means "grey"-- the words "glaucoma"
arises from the grey opacity of the lens which develops. That said, I have no
idea what the word for "owl" is, but I bet someone in sci.classics knows.


-- 
MUDname: Sidera           "...If I seem to give a damn, please tell me. I would
University of Delaware      hate to be giving the wrong impression."
Newsgroups: alt.mythology
From: sindiogi@dewey.NMSU.Edu (INDIOGINE)
Subject: The creation of Eve
Organization: New Mexico State University
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 18:38:46 GMT

Question: the creation of Eve in Genesis chapter 2 (?) involves one of
Adam's ribs. I read somewhere (? I do not remember where) that the story 
can only be understtod correctly by knowing Sumerian mythology. Eden itself
is a Sumerian name for instance. If  I remember correctly, the rib is
somehow associated with a flower that grows in marshes in Southern Mesopota-
mia. 
Can anybody give some info about this?!
Question: does anyone know about residuals of the ancestral cult of the 
Mother Goddess in the Bible?
Question: in the book of Genesis Jacob erects a pillar stome and pours
oil over it. Would this be a Menhir? Is it correlated with the phallic
cult like the Lingam in India? Why would Jacob pour oil on it?
Newsgroups: alt.mythology
From: cpshelle@jeeves.waterloo.edu (cameron shelley)
Subject: Re: eek! a GREMLIN
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 13:55:35 GMT

cp11+@andrew.cmu.edu (Charles Lamonte Palmer) writes:
> Hey
> 
> Are there any mythology occurences or references to
> the gnomelike creatures known as 'Gremlins'?
> 
> I'm looking for such a creature to help me with the 
> construction of a short-story.

Gremlins come from the mythology of the WWII RAF.  The OED cites a
1942 newspaper article which states that the word is a blending of
"goblin" and "Fremlin", the latter being a kind of beer found in the
Middle East and India.  The name is given "on account of they were the
goblins which came out of Fremlin beer bottles".  Sounds rather
scatological to me...

</dev/cam
--
      Cameron Shelley        | "Syllogism, n.  A logical formula consisting
cpshelle@jeeves.uwaterloo.ca |  of a major and a minor assumption and an
    Davis Centre Rm 2136     |  inconsequent."
 Phone (519) 885-1211 x3390  |				Ambrose Bierce
From: kfoss%ailanth.uucp@wang.com (Kevin Foss)
Newsgroups: alt.mythology
Subject: Re: Help with Fates
Date: 25 Jul 92 00:13:42 GMT
Organization: Ailanthus Project

rivk@quads.uchicago.edu (nora gayle rivkis) writes:

> 
> Can someone please tell me what the names of the three Fates
> were, and which one did which job? Thanks very much.

Atropos - carries the shears; cuts the thread of life
Clotho - carries the spindle; spins the thread of life
Lachesis - carries the globe (sometimes a scroll); determines the length
           of the thread of life.
 
Sort of in reverse order of probably how they worked.   Clotho, for some 
reason I find referred to as the youngest of the three (in Zimmerman, no 
classic reference given).  All were sisters.  In Greek they were known as 
the Moirae collectively, the Romans referred to them as the Parcae.  They 
gained the names of the Fates, also in Roman times, when their statues in 
the Forum were named the Tria Fata.  
They were the daughters of Zeus and Themis, and sisters of the three 
Horae (Eunomia, Dike, Eirene: Discipline, Justice, Peace).   
The Fates probably originated out of a more ancient belief of individual 
fate within each person, (this idea evolved into that of the Keres, more 
a sense of destinies).   Most importantly about the fates, though was 
their invulnerabiility even from the gods, all in the mythology universe 
of the Greeks had to follow the call of fate.
 
-Kevin
------
(Posted at 7:15:59 A.M. on Friday, July 24th 1992)
------
"And Dr. Strange is always changing size, and it's high time - 
Cymbaline."      - Roger Waters

..........
Kevin Foss, kfoss%ailanth.uucp@wang.com
via Ailanthus Project +1 207-989-6562 - Brewer, Maine.
..........
Newsgroups: alt.mythology
From: yozzo@watson.ibm.com
Subject: Greek and Roman Mythology (A question about Apollo)
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 17:46:05 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

From what I've read of Greek and Roman mythology, it appears to me
that the Roman Mythology is borrowed (other words could be used)
from the Greeks.  The Romans then renamed all the gods.

That is, excepting Apollo.  Is it true that Apollo is the only
god with the same name in both Greek and Roman mythology?
And if so, does anyone know why?

And why is that the Romans borrowed their myths from the Greeks
and did not invent their own?

One possible answer follows:

From what I've read, the Romans did have gods before being influenced by
Greek mythology.  But their gods were of the formless, lifeless,
awe-inspiring type.  The Romans must have liked the way the Greeks gave
human characteristics to their gods.  And decided to adopt the Greek
mythology.  The Romans matched the functions of their gods to the Greeks
and went through a renaming process.  For example, Jupiter (Jove) was the
Roman ruler of the gods and Zeus was his Greek counterpart.  Therefore,
Jupiter took on the characteristics of Zeus.  And likewise for the
following pairs:  Hera-Juno, Artemis-Diana, Hermes-Mercury, Cronus-Saturn,
Hades-Pluto, Aphrodite-Venus, Poseidon-Neptune, Hephaestus-Vulcan,
Ares-Mercury, Athena-Minerva, Demeter-?.  Hestia-?, ?-Uranus, ...

Apollo was probably a Greek god that had no equivalent Latin counterpart
and therefore the Roman borrowed even the name in this case.

Ralph Yozzo
From: rhoenes@PICASSO.OCIS.TEMPLE.EDU (Richard Hoenes)
Newsgroups: alt.mythology
Subject: Intro to Norse Mythology book?
Date: 24 Jul 92 17:00:03 GMT


Can anyone recommend a good intro book on Norse Mythology?          
(Something like Edith Hamilton's book on Greek/Roman 
mythology.) Thanks

Richard
rhoenes@picasso.ocis.temple.edu
From: ingria@bbn.com (Bob Ingria)
Newsgroups: alt.mythology
Subject: Re: Christian and Greek Threads
Date: 21 Jul 92 20:49:31 GMT
Reply-To: ingria@BBN.COM
NNTP-Posting-Host: bbn.com
In-reply-to: phi@sage.cc.purdue.edu's message of 13 Jul 92 02:37:33 GMT

In article <53848@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> phi@sage.cc.purdue.edu (Patrick) writes:

   And by the way,  in the thread of the 'Athena's Owl':

   According to my grandfather (RIP), who taught me most of my religion
   from oral tradition, the owl was NOT a pet, nor was it a companion.
   The owl was supposedly the creature that Athena, (GODDESS, NOT GOD)
   mostly identified with. (If it can be said that a goddess identifies
   with an animal and Not the other way around)  So, whenever Athena had
   earthly business with mortals, the owl was what was either seen or
   dealt with.

Not always.  Athena has a number of guises she appears in, in _The
Odyssey_.  Her association with the owl may go back to
Minoan/Mycenaean days, since various researchers infer that deities in
the M/M religion appeared or were worshipped in the form of birds.

-30-
Bob
Newsgroups: alt.mythology
From: jlmiller@hamp.hampshire.edu
Subject: Re: Faerie request
Organization: Hampshire College
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 18:41:06 GMT

A great author on the subject is Katharine Briggs. Unfortunatly, her books can
be hard to find. (But they _are_ available in the U.S....at least they were a
couple of years ago.) If anyone's interested, I'll try and find some...what are
they called, ISBN numbers for a couple of her books.

jonathan.
From: snow@netcom.com (Tim Szeliga)
Newsgroups: alt.mythology
Subject: Re: The creation of Eve
Date: 28 Jul 92 19:49:01 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)

>Question: does anyone know about residuals of the ancestral cult of the 
>Mother Goddess in the Bible?

Get "The Women's Encyclopaedia of Myth, Ritual  and Secrets" by Barbara Walker
She deals extensively with this topic.

>Question: in the book of Genesis Jacob erects a pillar stome and pours
>oil over it. Would this be a Menhir? Is it correlated with the phallic
>cult like the Lingam in India? Why would Jacob pour oil on it?

Interesting... Look up "The Book of J" by Harold Rosenberg.
Newsgroups: alt.mythology