HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: amirza@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (Anmar Caves)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Top Man Stoppers???
Date: 17 Aug 92 22:34:18 GMT
Organization: Indiana University

In article <13400008@iftccu.boeing.com> bressler@iftccu.ca.boeing.com (Rick Bressler) writes:

#You will note that the equipment is listed as a (distant) third.  As
#just about all the experts I've met and talked to have said, there is no
#such thing as a magic bullet.  Once you are able to hit reliably with
#your firearm, you can perhaps gain a bit of an edge with the proper
#ammunition, but it is only a bit.  ALL handgun rounds are woefully
#inadequate to ensure good stops against anything larger than a decent
#sized rat.

That last is actually quite accurate.  I was hunting moles out at the
ranch (they were tunneling right for me!)  So, I got out my .45 with
the 185gr Federal JHP's and blasted away.  Emptied a magazine and
didn't hit it.  I did stun it though, and when I dug it up it was
staggering around dazed for a little bit.  I turned it over and
noticed a rather small exit wound.  Searching the other side produced
and entry wound.  I quickly dispatched it with a head shot, but it
pointed out a few things to me.  One, living things can absorb a huge
amount of damage and continue to live and move around for a while, and
two, overpenetration, and underexpansion is a Bad Thing (tm) when
attempting to stop your target.  While this isn't meant to be
extrapolated from, it did point out an extreme.


-- 
Anmar Mirza   # Mayor of Dogspit, IN  #My Opinions! Not IU's!# Will be
EMT-D         # Located somewhere in  # Legalize Explosives! # President
N9ISY (tech)  # the Outback of the    #I've got my own fusion# for Food
Networks Tech.# Mirza Ranch.C'mon over#plant. Just ask me.   #Space For Rent
From: bressler@iftccu.ca.boeing.com (Rick Bressler)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Stupid shooter tricks
Date: 19 Aug 92 12:39:25 GMT
Organization: Boeing Commercial Airplane Group


#Using said training, my friend attempted to aim the 1911A1 like an
#M-16, with his eye up to the rear sight.
#My scream of "CEASE FIRE" saved his face/eye.

This one ain't even close to funny.  A guy at one of the local ranges
did this.  First shot stunned him, nasty cut.  He staggered back and
touched off a second round into the floor.  The ricochet went through
a partition and got an off duty police officer at the next station in
the groin.  He was not pleased.....  Fortunately the bullet was pretty
well spent and his 'hydraulics' will probably resume normal function any
time now.

Rick.
From: dougnews@access.digex.com (Doug Humphrey)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Should my first handgun be a .22? (Too wimpy for defense?)
Date: 22 Aug 92 14:55:08 GMT
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, Maryland USA

In article <1992Aug20.004909.7083@ecst.csuchico.edu> dpike@OAVAX.CSUCHICO.EDU (DAN PIKE) writes:
#In my opinion you should practice with the handgun that you are going to rely
#on the most.  If you are going to carry a handgun for self defense you want to
#be as familiar with the weapon as you possibly can.  

Yes, but don't confuse practice with learning.  They are very
different things, in a lot of ways.  If the gun you are going
to carry, and thus the one that you should practice with, is a
.44 magnum, that does NOT mean that you should learn your initial
habits on a .44  Learning the basics and then learning "high power"
are things that should go in steps, and they call for different guns.

##	- A gun to learn shooting with and to improve marksmanship

Sounds like a .22 to me

##	- A gun to use for personal defense in the city

9mm? .45?  .380 auto?

##	- A gun to bring backpacking for protection against bears and 
##	  general personal defense in the backcountry

Bazooka?  GAU-8?  40mm grenades?  Actually, a 12 guage shotgun with
slugs might be just the ticket for wandering around in bear country.
Anyone ever hear of these being used on our big brown friends? Not 
for offensive hunting (longer range) but for defensive action
(short range and getting shorter fast!)


Doug Humphrey
doug@digex.com

--
From: mike.federchuk@rose.com
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: canadian laws
Date: 17 Aug 92 14:44:07 GMT


Bill,

ST|Damn, guess that belt fed M60 is out. "Honest sir, It's a deer rifle"
  |Does the 200 round limit apply to .22?  Also, can I purchase ammo in
  |Canada, or do you need some sort of licence to do so.

Uh, ya.  The belt fed weapon is DEFINITELY out!  The last guy to try and bring
one in was thrown in jail.  He was sentenced to solve Canada's constitutional
crisis, resolve the English/French language problem and clean up the
environment.  I hear that he's appealing this ruling, and demanding the death
penalty instead! :-) :-) :-)

Seriously, if you are over 18 years old, you can buy any ammunition that a
Canadian Tire Store or gun shops sells, without a permit.  Remember that
"sporting-goods" and hardware stores don't sell guns and ammo in Canada (its
not a law, its a market thing).  You can only buy ammo at a Canadian Tire store
(like Wal-Mart) or at hunting/fishing store.  Le Barons, in Mississiagua and
North York is great for price and selection.

Guess those .22 Hollow Points aren't considered "EVIL-ASSAULT-BULLETS" (tm).
  |The 15% tax, is that a special "ammo" tax or is that the normal sales
  |tax? We just turned down a sales tax increase that would have put us
  |at 8-8.5%. By time you add up the deductions on your check, sales tax,
  |property tax, importation taxes, hidden taxes on tires, gas, liquor and
  |such, you end up handing over 50% of your money to the Guv. And yet they
  |seem to be always broke :-(  Go figure!

Our Ontario Provincial Sales Tax is 8%.  Our Federal Goods and Service Tax is
7%.  In Ontario, the tax is applied in parallel, on the final value of the
good, so the combined tax rate on ANY thing you buy in Ontario is 15%.  "Welcom
Tourist, eh?"  Other provinces have different rates, and often apply the GST on
top of the PST, so it could be more.

Despite this bad news, a brick (500 rounds) of Winchester, Remmingtion or CCI
.22cal rimfire (any type) retails for about $13-$15CDN, plus tax.

Boxes of 30-06, 30-30, .45 (20 in a box) sell for about $20-$25CDN, plus tax.

ST|Thanks for the info.  Looks like I'll limit myself to just bringing
  |my politically Correct, Bolt-Action .22.

Good idea, but bring a fishing pole too!  Ontario is THE bass capital of
Canada!  Uh, about $25-45CDN for a non-resident fishing licence, of course.

Regards,
Mike

Mike Federchuk              |
Burlington, Ontario, Canada |
mike.federchuk@rose.com     |
---
   OLX 2.2   That which does not kill me...probably missed!
   RoseMail 2.00 : Usenet: Rose Media - Hamilton (416) 575-5363
From: donb@igor.tamri.com (Don Baldwin)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: S&W 586 problem
Date: 17 Aug 92 22:33:26 GMT
Organization: TOSHIBA America MRI, South San Francisco, CA

A few nights ago, I had my 586 out for drt firing and, when I opened the
action to load snap caps (muzzle pointed at the ground), the arm that swings
out the cylinder, and the cylinder, fell off into my hand.  That had never
happened before, so I figured that there was a problem.

Has anyone else out there with a 586 (or other Smith revolver) had that
problem before?  Does it sound like something I can fix myself or do I
need to look up a Northern CA S&W approved gunsmith?  If so, would that
be expensive?

Thanks,
From: bbx!bbxrbk!russ@unmvax.cs.unm.edu (Russ Kepler)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Rust control
Date: 15 Aug 92 17:00:54 GMT
Organization: /etc/organization

In article <9208141655.AA12322@dog.ee.lbl.gov> bercov@bevsun.bev.lbl.gov (John Bercovitz) writes:
#Muriatic is great for de-rusting - it leaves a spongy, easily removed
#iron mass behind when it converts the iron oxide to metal.  _However_,
#it is also A-1 at causing hydrogen embrittlement. So you must bake
#out any parts which you've acid dipped if the parts are stressed at
#all.  Springs are especially sensitive inasmuch as they are regularly
#highly stressed.  Fortunately, it is simple to get rid of the hydrogen
#with a low-temperature bake-out.  For parts which are heat treated
#about like springs (most parts) you won't hurt the temperature if you
#bake out at 375F for 3 hours.  Parts which are carburized are full-hard
#on the surface so to avoid affecting their temper, you must bake out at
#275F for 5 hours.  By the way, plating, such as nickel plating, also
#causes hydrogen embrittlement.  So insist on a bake-out after plating
#or bake it out yourself in your kitchen oven if it has decent temperature
#control (say plus or minus 10 or 15 F).

My suggestion was for using HCl for debluing, not for derusting.  If
you keep the HCl from entering the bore or from hitting any of the
lockwork or chamber, would you still need to bake-out the deblued
parts?  I was sort of under the impression that hydrogen embrittlement
didn't get much deeper than a few micrometers.

Oh, yeah, to anyone wanting to use HCl to remove bluing: Aluminum is
*never* blued, it's mostly painted or anodized.  *DON'T* use HCl on
aluminum, it'll leave a pile of pitted metal and a cloud of hydrogen
gas behind.

As long as we're on the edge of the topic of ion implantation: has
anyone done any of this in the area of firearms?  It seems to me that
nitrogen ion implantation on some parts of the lockwork could improve
the action and allow machining of softer metals (read cheaper
processing).  'course, it'd screw up those of us that like to do
action jobs and don't have ion implant hardware...  Thoughts?

-- 
.signature: not found.  Create?
From: lairdb@crash.cts.com
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Another snapcap question.
Date: 21 Aug 92 03:36:02 GMT

In <4972@blue.cis.pitt.edu.UUCP> dcwst8+@pitt.edu (David C Winters) writes:

#Have a friend randomly load live rounds and snap caps into the magazine,
#and you insert it, drop the slide, etc.  You don't know what's in the
#chamber.  Squeeze the trigger.

[...]

#The only problem I can see, is that:  Are snapcaps' construction sturdy
#enough to take a slide's cycling?

There's an outfit called Precision Something-or-other that makes dummy
rounds that are all one piece out of solid orange HDPE (or some such
nylon-y plastic-y material.)  Something on the order of 50 for just
a few dollars.

(I know, a little vague on some of the facts.  It's been a looooong day.
 If anyone needs the exact details, write me and I can turn them up.)


-- 
Laird P. Broadfield     lairdb@crash.cts.com    ...{ucsd, nosc}!crash!lairdb
Hi!  I'm a shareware signature!  Send $5 if you use me, send $10 for manual!
From: les@ulysses.att.com (Leslie Johnson)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Book research: Bullets in water.
Date: 14 Aug 92 19:11:19 GMT
Organization: AT&T Bell Labs, Murray Hill, NJ, USA


In article <4713@blue.cis.pitt.edu.UUCP> dcwst8+@pitt.edu (David C Winters) writes:
###There is an interesting chapter on this subject in the "NRA Firearms Facts"
#What's the best way to get a copy of this booklet?

_NRA Firearms Fact Book_
By NRA Technical Staff, 1988 - Third Edition 1989
318 pages Illustrated Softcover
PB1N0097 Retail $9.95

NRA Sales Department
P.O. Box 5000
Kearneysville, WV 25430-5000
1-800-336-7402
VA 1-800-535-9982

Also ask for their free _NRA Product Price Book_ which lists all of their
publications, manuals, videos, targets, decals, scoring aids, etc.

Disclaimer: I am the NRA. :-)
--
  - Leslie Johnson  (les@ulysses.att.com) 1+908-582-5493
       "One Bell System - It Works"
From: jheath@fieldofdreams.npirs.purdue.edu (Jim Heath)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Top Man Stoppers??
Date: 18 Aug 92 17:13:42 GMT
Organization: Center for Environmental and Regulatory Information Systems, Purdue University

#From article <1992Aug17.102402.1@geovax.ed.ac.uk>, by msc9203@geovax.edinburgh.ac.uk (C.A.Anderson):
# Sometime last year I received a flyer for some strange ammo, some of it was the
# type you are referring to some had cloth bags of very fine shot to destroy door
# hinges while not having any secondary projectile damage to 'hostages' inside
# the room.  They had other strange things like two halves of a slug that were
# connected by a segment of piano wire.  Theoretically they would make a bolo
# while in flight (actually these were used to be used in the days of wooden
# ships and cannons, made a mess of the other guys rigging).

I believe that was what they called chain shot.  It made an
excellent anti-personnel round on the battlefield as well.  


  One other thing
# they had for sale was a round that would spray burning magnesium out when fired
# which would subsequently burn for around 3 seconds.  The ad recommended sun
# glasses as protection when fired at night because of the brightness and claimed
# it would not hurt the firearm in any way when fired (oh really???).  The
# company was under the name of "Blammo Ammo" strangely enough I didn't want to
# try any of this stuff on my model 12.
# 
# For real man stoppers things other than cannon balls  have been used in times
# of lack of standard ammunition, things that come to mind are kegs of nails and
# crobars.  Be interesting to see what a mess these rounds mad, from behind the
# cannon of course :-) .
#

There is a modern equivalent for the keg of nails.  It is a 105mm
(or other I suppose) round loaded with fletchettes.  It is
commonly called a bee hive round because of the sound the
fletchettes make after they are fired.

Could the crowbar you're thinking of be bar-shot?  I think it was
primarily used against ships' rigging, but it probably was at
least adequate as an anti-personnel round.

Then there were the glass cannon balls which were outlawed by the
Geneva convention.

BTW, does anyone know how explosive cannon balls (or modern
cannon shells for that matter) worked?  It doesn't seem like they
could have run the fuse throught the touch hole and achieved any
speed.  Did they load the fuse against the powder charge and hope
for the best? 
-- 
"Land of song, said the warrior bard,           Jim Heath
Though all the world betrays thee.
One sword, at least, thy rights shall guard, (The Minstrel Boy)
One faithful harp will praise thee."         (Thomas Moore)
From: jca@crash.cts.com
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Travelling help
Date: 21 Aug 92 03:36:22 GMT
Organization: CTS Network Services (crash, ctsnet), El Cajon, CA

In article <lairdb.714255004@crash> lairdb@crash.cts.com writes:
#In <1992Aug19.022135.16461@ttinews.tti.com> hollombe@polymath.tti.com (The Polymath) writes:
##that loaded magazine == loaded gun (in fact, live ammunition touching any
##part of a gun, including the magazine, is legally the same as a loaded
##gun).
#
#Incidenatlly, this has come up before.  I got curious, and talked 
#(informally) to several people about it, all of whom "had never heard
#such a ridiculous interpretation" (roughly the words of a local ADA.)
#He pointed out what I had thought, that the wording of the PC section
#in question is most sensibly read to say that if the magazine is out
#of the firearm, then it's not loaded.
#
#Not to say that a rabid, conviction-hungry prosecutor couldn't read it
#any way he wanted to, but does anyone have a cite?

My state and NRA certified firearm instructor says the same thing.
Loaded magazine = loaded gun in CA.  Doesn't matter if a round is
chambered or not.  The reasoning is this.  The magazine is a part of the
pistol.  It is necessary for it to be fully functional so therefore if
you have a loaded magazine, you have ammunition touching the pistol and
therefore a loaded gun.

Ideal weapon to carry in CA in what Ayoob called condition four (unloaded
firearm with  a loaded magazine or speedloader ready) is a revolver.  A
speedloader is NOT part of a revolver.  It is not necessary for it to be
fully functional.
--

     // JCA

 /*
 ** ARPA    : jadpc!thewall!jca@nosc.mil | 13 + 1 = 228... 
 ** INTERNET: jca@thewall.cts.com        |
 **           jca@thewall.uucp           |           SIG-Sauer P228...
 ** UUCP    : nosc!jadpc!thewall!jca     |
 */
From: mike.federchuk@rose.com
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: gun auction
Date: 18 Aug 92 12:25:08 GMT

Date Entered: 08-18-92 03:34


I found this notice tacked up on the "low-tech" bulletin board at the club.
Thought I would share it with the net, incase any one else in the Golden
Horseshoe area was interested.

GUN SHOW/SALE/AUCTION

Saturday, September 19th, 1992

Hume's Auction Farm
9313 4th Line
Milton, Ontario

Show opens and pre-auction inspection start at 10:00am, auction starts at
11:00am.  Patrons wishing to purchase guns must have a valid Ontario Firearms
Acquisition Certificate (FAC); I'm not sure how they would handle someone from
out of province or from up-state New York.  If you are interested, I can call
and find out.  No certificate is required to purchase ammunition or gadgets.

If you need directions on how to get there, send me e-mail.  My copy of the
flier is missing the map.

Regards,
Mike

Mike Federchuk              |
Burlington, Ontario, Canada |
mike.federchuk@rose.com     |
---
   OLX 2.2   Do artificial plants need artificial water?
   RoseMail 2.00 : Usenet: Rose Media - Hamilton (416) 575-5363
From: SYSTEMM@FRED.ALHRG.WPAFB.AF.MIL (System Manager Wuest)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: 9 X 18 Ammo located
Date: 18 Aug 92 17:14:06 GMT


   I believe some from Texas posted last week that they bought a Makarov.
   They decried a lack of ammo in Tex.  If I remember correctly the caliber
   was 9mm X 18mm.  Well, I have located 2 boxes (50 rounds each) at my local
   GOB's gun shoppe.  E-mail me if you would like me to follow up.

==(*)==  ==(*)==  ==(*)==  ==(*)==  ==(*)==  ==(*)==  ==(*)==  ==(*)==  ==(*)==
|  Mike Wuest, Allin1, DDN, & VAX Systems Manager  SYSTEMM@ALHRG.WPAFB.AF.MIL |
|  Armstrong Labs, Logistics Research Div.         SYSTEMM@[131.28.15.14]     |
|  Comm: (513)255-8225    DSN 785-8225    (a.k.a.) MWUEST@ALHRG.WPAFB.AF.MIL  |
|  "If it wasn't for our guns, we would be British citizens.  Think about it!"|
| Disclaimer: Opinions are like ears; everybody has a couple - these are mine!|
==(*)==  ==(*)==  ==(*)==  ==(*)==  ==(*)==  ==(*)==  ==(*)==  ==(*)==  ==(*)==
From: system@hale.cts.com
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Carrying spare magazines
Date: 12 Aug 92 13:31:02 GMT
Organization: Hale Telecommunications San Diego CA

alane@microsoft.com (Alan Ezekiel) writes:

# I have been told several times by defensive handgun instructors
# that every person who carries a defensive firearm should have an
# extra magazine or speedloader with them.
# 
# Here are some of the reasons I have been given:
# 
#   1) If you are ever forced to shoot, you should reload immediately
#      afterwards -- you should always have a full load, if possible.
# 
#   2) If your firearm misfeeds, switching magazines is one of the
#      things you try if your first-order malfunction drill doesn't
#      solve the problem.
# 
#   3) Improperly seated magazines can drop out of the gun, and
#      magazines do occasionaly fall apart or blow out.  You don't
#      want to be scrounging on the ground for your magazine, or
#      have your gun rendered useless by magazine failure.
# 
#   4) You never know what will happen.  Having extra ammunition is
#      a "Good Thing".
# 
#   5) Once one has taken the trouble to carry the firearm, it is
#      silly to balk at the slight additional weight/bulk of an
#      extra magazine which could save your life.
# 
# Despite all of the advice, and my respect for the instructors who
# suggested these things, I remain unconvinced.  Modern high-capacity
# firearms carry so many cartridges that spare magazines seem excessive
# somehow -- I cannot avoid the feeling that anybody incapable of
# stopping an assailant with fourteen bullets will fare no better when
# given twenty-seven.
Stuff deleted
# 
# 
# So here are my questions to you: can you think of any other reasons
# to carry spare magazines or speedloaders?  When you carry, do you
# bring a spare magazine?  Why (or why not) would you suggest carrying
# spare magazines?


You should always have at least two speed loaders or magazines at the 
ready.  Not doing this is like driving around with out a spare tire or a 
diabetic leaving the insulin at home, your asking for it...

How about these--

Through condensation or lubricant leaching out of your firearm, you end 
up with a bunch of dead primers.

Your magazine gets damaged while in a confrontation (such as hitting the 
ground hard, and rapping the bottom of the magazine.)

Your follower in the magazine gets hung up, or a problem with the spring 
(such as breaking [though rare] or it runs out of oomph from constant 
compression [also rare, but I've seen it happen.])

Your run up against someone who wants to stay and fight.

Ever wonder why speedloader and magazine carriers (usually) come on twos?


        -=-  -=-  System Administrator   system@hale.cts.com  -=-  -=-
                         Hale Telecommunications Inc.
                            San Diego, California
From: tmoore@wildwood.tinton.ccur.com (Tim Moore)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: 9mm major / 9x21 reloading question
Date: 13 Aug 92 15:24:00 GMT
Organization: Concurrent Computer Corporation


 
n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio) writes....

--> So if you load a 9mm up super hot, in a special gun, it can equal a 
--> 38 Super... 
-->...I wonder why not just get a .38 super for this purpose? 

Can't shoot .38 super in a handgun built for 9x19 like the currently
IPSC-popular Tangfoglio CZ/P9/EAA Witness.  Making IPSC major with
this gun is why the 9x21 is enjoying its current popularity.

--> Is there something bad about the .38 Super that I am not aware of, or 
--> is it simply consumer preference?    I know about the semi-rimmed nature
--> of the cartridge, but to my knowlege it does not effect performance.

The semi-rimmed .38 super doesn't stack as well as a rimless cartridge
in a double stack mag like those of Para Ordnance, Caspina and McCormick.
But thats not stopping lots of people (including me) from using them in
IPSC.  BTW, CP Bullets has introduced the 9x23 which is basically a
tapered, rimless 9mm case of the same length as the .38 super.  Super/9mm
barrels must be rechambered for this round.  Its supposed to eliminate
mag stacking problems.  Ill sit back and let others experiment on this
one. 
_______________________________________________________________________________
who:   Tim Moore                                             ___________
email: tmoore@tinton.ccur.com   		            /  ________/__
snail: Concurrent Computer Corp.		           /__/_______/  /
       106 Apple St. Tinton Falls, NJ.            Concurrent /__________/
phone: (908) 758 7192 fax: (908) 758 7113	Computer Corporation
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------