HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: asylvain@felix.filenet.com (The Chipmunk)
Newsgroups: ca.politics
Subject: Freeloading Problem (was: California Libraries in Dire Need)
Keywords: taxes freeloading
Date: 27 Jul 92 18:36:55 GMT
Reply-To: mitch%coriolis.uucp@usc.edu
Distribution: ca
Organization: Albedo Communications

[ Mitch, forgive me if you really didn't want this posted at all.
[ I assume from your introductory paragraph that you meant for this 
[ to post to ca.politics, so viola! here it is.

[ Please note to anyone wishing to follow-up, that the words below belong
[ to Mitch, not Chipmunk.  Kindly edit your attributions appropriately.

===== ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== 
Written by mitch%coriolis.uucp@usc.edu who needs a better newsreader:

Until I can get on a system/work around this one to the point
where I can edit the crosspost line, I'll have to respond in email.

The reason we force people to contribute to worthwhile projects, instead 
of just letting them decide to do so, is called "Freeriding."  People are 
tempted not to pay their share and just take the benefits of others 
contributions.  When I pay to educate a child, thirty years later 
everyone else is better off.  If we all pay, and especially if we all pay 
over time to more or less smooth out the investment curves, we all 
profit.  That doesn't mean some people aren't tempted to say "gosh, I'm 
not really sure schools are I good idea, I'd rather just buy ice cream 
with the tax money." Of course they are.

So are schools a good investment?  That's what we have a political system 
to decide.  If 1)Schools are a good investment and 2)they are Public 
goods, things best paid for publicly, we should tax for them.

I KNOW you're going to jump over 2, so I'll explain that carefully.  
Public Goods are those where thepower of the police state (yes, I know 
it's an evil nasty thing to libertarians but it DOES have its purposes) 
is necessary to capture externalities which otherwise would be improperly 
distributed and discourage the expenditure.  We all benefit from spending 
on, broadly, "Infrastructure," not only by our neighbors but by our 
predecessors, and when we spend money on these things benefit not only 
our neighbors but those who follow us.  If we were allowed as individuals 
to ignore the benefits we've received and the benefits our investment 
will confer on others, this virtuous chain would break and we'd all be 
the poorer for it.

So once we have collectively decided that something is worth Public 
Expenditure, we don't let individuals selfishly opt out.  That's the 
Prisoner's Dillemma (why would they want to opt out of a good thing?) and 
I've gone through that with you in the past, so I hope the above helps 
explain it.

   Mitch
Newsgroups: ca.politics
From: donb@igor.tamri.com (Don Baldwin)
Subject: Re: JUNE GENIS IN THE ORANGE COUNTY REGISTER!!
Organization: TOSHIBA America MRI, South San Francisco, CA
Distribution: ca
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 92 17:11:56 GMT

In article <1992Jul23.044223.22514@morrow.stanford.edu>
GA.JRG@forsythe.stanford.edu (June Genis) writes:
>>The only thing above that strikes a question in my mind is the bit
>>about "financial investment" - I assume that you're not proposing
>>that rich people should be able to switch their bank accounts over
>>or buy a business and thereby get citizenship preference or an
>>earlier right to vote?
>
>I'm not sure that investing in an American business shouldn't be
>good for a few years credit toward citizenship.  A citizen ought to
>be someone with a stake in the country and if someone owns a
>business here he or she is going to be concerned with the economic
>health of the country.  What I don't want to see is people getting
>in the door and voting to put themselves on the public dole.  I want
>people voting who have to *pay* for the public dole.

No way!

Citizenship for immigrants should not depend on how much money they
have.  Don't you think that someone who's worked for a couple years here
and exhibited good moral character should be able to get citizenship
faster than any old schmoe who just wanders in and plops down a couple
million?

    don
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
        First they stole the fourth amendment.
                I said nothing because I don't deal drugs.
        Then they took the sixth amendment.
                I was silent because I know I'm  not guilty.
        When they came for the second amendment,
                I kept quiet because I don't own a gun.

Now they've come for the first amendment, and I can't say anything at all.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Don Baldwin  -  Software Engineer  - e-mail to:  donb@tamri.com
Newsgroups: ca.politics
From: mzimmers@netcom.com (Michael Zimmers)
Subject: Re: Immigration (was Re: June Genis in the Orange County Register)
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 23:09:42 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 

In article <1992Jul27.202048.2470@cheshire.oxy.edu> leavitt@cheshire.oxy.edu (Thomas VanNess Leavitt) writes:

>Somehow, I can't picture someone actually preferring living on the dole in
>a foriegn country, especially considering how pitiful the lifestyle is,
>to working in their own country.  

You don't get out much, do you, Thom?

The world is filled with people who'd prefer to live here *without*
the dole.  Has been for about a century (actually much longer if one
includes those who established the current system, and not just those
who were drawn to it).

Most of the rest of the world is a pretty bleak place.  And one without
"the dole" at that.  Understand?

>One would have to be pretty desperate.

Ah!  You do understand.
-- 
Michael Zimmers                                    |  Home:  408 996 1984
SoftHelp                                           |  Work:  408 996 1965
Software Solutions for Open Systems                |  Data:  408 996 1974
Xref: sparky ca.politics:6031 soc.culture.asian.american:7147 soc.culture.african.american:8286
From: tedrick@whistle.Berkeley.EDU (Tom Tedrick)
Newsgroups: ca.politics,talk.politics.guns
Subject: Re: DNA databank (gun control)
Date: 30 Jul 1992 05:49:44 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: whistle.berkeley.edu

If everyone has guns for self-protection, you don't need
a DNA databank or a universal ID system (the crooks won't
live long enough).

If you disarm the people and rely on the state apparatus
for crime control, a universal ID system is the only alternative
to total chaos.

-- 
"Self-reliant always, impatient of drill and discipline, unsurpassed as a scout
and on the skirmish line the Southern soldier was the finest individual fighter
the world has ever seen. Taking naturally to guerrilla warfare as did their fore
fathers during the War of Independence, in battle he fought like a berserker."
Newsgroups: ca.politics
From: mike@gordian.com (Michael A. Thomas)
Subject: Re: Immigration (was Re: June Genis in the Orange County Register)
Organization: Gordian; Costa Mesa, CA
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 21:40:21 GMT

In article <nr5jeso@fido.asd.sgi.com>, dauber@sgi.com (Jeff Dauber) writes:
> In article <1992Jul27.202048.2470@cheshire.oxy.edu> leavitt@cheshire.oxy.edu (Thomas VanNess Leavitt) writes:
> 
> >Somehow, I can't picture someone actually preferring living on the dole in
> >a foriegn country, especially considering how pitiful the lifestyle is,
> >to working in their own country.  One would have to be pretty desperate.
> 
> This is a fairly naive viewpoint.  The conditions in america, even on the dole,
> are vastly superior to the conditions in Haiti, for example.  I can very
> easily see why people would want to get the fuck out of Haiti, even if it
> means being on the dole in America.

  In my experience, most people coming to America are not coming here
to live on the dole. They want to be productive members of society
and appreciate the opportunities America has to offer (the &^%$#&% INS
not withstanding). If anything, IMHO, it is our idiotic welfare system 
that is the corrupting influence.
  I sort of think that the welfare issue is sort of a red harring
as well. I think that most folks who use this line are really
rationalizing there own xenophobic thoughts. (Note, I am *not*
accusing June of this). 
-- 

		Michael Thomas	(mike@gordian.com)
	"I don't think Bambi Eyes will get you that flame thrower..."  
		-- Hobbes to Calvin
		USnail: 20361 Irvine Ave Santa Ana Heights, Ca,	92707-5637
		PaBell: (714) 850-0205 (714) 850-0533 (fax)
Newsgroups: ca.politics
From: leavitt@cheshire.oxy.edu (Thomas VanNess Leavitt)
Subject: Re: I'm enraged.
Organization: Occidental College, Los Angeles, CA 90041 USA.
Distribution: ca
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 00:53:30 GMT

Hmm... I could mention the now 16 year old manic depressive Panamanian/
Anglo who was abused by a really airheaded mother as a child, whose father
is dying of AIDS in New York, divorced from his mother, who married a
Polish cabdriver whom this kid never got along with, who was dropping
acid at age 12, when he sat in my living room and told my brother he
didn't expect to live to be 18... who has been in and out and in andout
of the juvenile justice and drug rehabilitation systems, who has been
homeless and living in garages and crashing in friends houses for months
at a time, who was dragged out of our bathroom by the police, totally
drunk and lying in his own vomit a couple of years ago.

Did I mention the kid has an I.Q. of 150, and could be a highly productivew
member of society if the support structures were there?

Not to mention the dozens of kids with and without high school diplomas
unable to find steady work?  Or the way in which kids with "invisible"
handicaps, behavioral or emotional (such as the above) get tracked
together when they're diagnosed and put in "remedial" courses (especially
frustrating when you're highly capable...) and wind up creating a sub-
culture of their own which often reinforces negative perceptions of the
larger society and the school system.

Put a dozen brilliant kids, with multiple invisible handicaps in one room,
give them make-work and remedial level coursework, try your best to handle
the multiple disruptions caused by the behavioral disturbances combined
with problems at home and possible drug abuse, have little or no guidance
in how to deal with them, and what do you produce?

How about the people who meet my brother at a party, and a couple of days
later, call him up at 4 a.m. talking about committing suicide?  Or the
ones that he's known for years who do the same thing, from out of state?

How about coming accross just a small sample of the utterly alienated,
and knowing that there are hundreds of kids like this making their living
selling T-shirts and acid at Venice beach, and living in communal apartments?

Of course, these are just my brother's friends, in another post, I'll talk
about my Latino buddy who stood in the Quad (central hang out area) and
shouted about how he hated whitepeople and what have they ever done for him,
producing massive hysteria from whitepeople on campus, and somehow over
shadowing the positive peaceful statements of the other 90 participants...
who is cool, who told me that he realized it was not cool, and not productive,
but wasn't going to apologize, I told him, "Cool, you told them how you
feel, I support you 100%, I know what you really meant."  More detail later.

Thom

Enough?  Polite enough?  Don't see any foul language there...

however, just to stay honest:  F*ck you, GHWB and DQ and all you other
bastards who've made it damn well near impossible for many people to live
with dignity. 

:)
From: cedman@714-725-3165.nts.uci.edu (Carl Edman)
Subject: Re: JUNE GENIS IN THE ORANGE COUNTY REGISTER!!
Newsgroups: ca.politics
Reply-To: Carl Edman <cedman@golem.ps.uci.edu>
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: 23 Jul 92 03:00:26 GMT

In article <18982@fritz.filenet.com> asylvain@fritz.filenet.com (The Chipmunk) writes:
>I can hardly believe it!  We actually got >>GASP!!<< media coverage of
>a Libertarion candidate!  It ain't much, but it's a start!  (June, the 
>picture in the paper is MUCH nicer than the one in the Lib.newsletter!)  
>
> [ ... ]
>
>Even more interesting, that a fairly mainstream paper (the Orange County
>Register is not exactly a throw-away!) is actually putting forth some
>effort to cover ALL the candidates, instead of just the Big Two.

Well, if you care to turn to the Editorial page, you wouldn't any
longer be so surprised. The Orange County Register is one of the very
few openly libertarian large papers in this country and has been so
for several decades. Admittedly it is also the largest paper here in
Orange County, but if the LP only can get coverage in papers which are
as sympathetical to its policies as the OCR, it still has a long way
to go.

        Carl Edman
From: kane@buast7.bu.edu (Hot Young Star)
Newsgroups: ca.politics
Subject: Re: "Homophobic Rampages"?
Date: 24 Jul 92 15:29:18 GMT
Organization: Astronomy Department, Boston University, Boston, MA, USA

In article <11384@optilink.UUCP> cramer@optilink.UUCP (Clayton Cramer) writes:

>Blacks commit a disproportionate number of murders in the U.S.;
>about 3.5x what you would expect.  Does that mean blacks don't
>think like whites?  Not in my experience.  Though I'm sure that
>Mr. Kane will use this information to justify special laws
>to treat blacks as "special."

No way...you're just dodging the issue. Women commit a miniscule amount
of crime compared to men, regardless of their race.
Newsgroups: ca.politics
From: guido@island.COM (Guido Marx)
Subject: Re: aids conference in cuba
Organization: Island Graphics Corp.  San Rafael, Ca.
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 23:02:11 GMT

In article <BAGCHI.92Jul27155011@sparky.eecs.umich.edu> bagchi@eecs.umich.edu (Ranjan Drzzzzt!  Bagchi) writes:
>	AIDS-like immune deficiency cases have been found well
>before the 1980.. back to the 1950's in sailors.  It wasn't
>widespread, and was by and large forgotten.  1950 was well before
>genetic knowledge was close to what would be needed.

There is some evidence that AIDS was introduced into the human population
by people.  One theory is that AIDS was introduced into human populations
in Africa inadvertently via innoculations (I can't remember if it was
for Polio or Smallpox).  Apparently, some of the vaccine may have been
manufactured using tissue from chimps who were infected with simian-AIDS.
That is one theory currently being tossed around, but I doubt that we
will ever know with certainty.

Guido

Newsgroups: ca.politics
From: foy@aero.org (Richard Foy)
Subject: Re: JUNE GENIS IN THE ORANGE COUNTY REGISTER!!
Organization: The Aerospace Corporation, El Segundo, CA
Distribution: ca
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 21:44:26 GMT

In article <1992Jul27.014441.5792@morrow.stanford.edu> GA.JRG@forsythe.stanford.edu (June Genis) writes:

...
#True, but does it matter?  If someone has made a long term
#investment in a country and indicates that this is the country they
#wish to vote in rather than the one in which they are living, is
#there some reason that would be bad?  Note that many native born
#Americans actually live and work overseas but retain their voting
#rights here.  What I'm looking for as a criteria of granting
#citizenship is some way of judging that the person has made a
#commitment to making America the best that it can be.  Financial
#investment is by no means the only way to determine that someone
#has made such a commitment but it seems to me to be at least as
#meaningful as any others that I can think of.
#
##Richard Foy                       Standard Disclaimer
#
#/June

It is possible that that is what they are doing. However, it is also
possible that their goals are to take advatage of our system, that they
don't want to improve the country, but only make it easier for them to
make as much money as possible, no matter what harm they do to the long
term interests of the US, jsut so they can move back home as soon as they
can..

What is most probable. Who can tell?

Richard Foy           Standard Disclaimer
From: howard@hasse.hal.com (Howard Gayle)
Newsgroups: ca.politics
Subject: Re: Freeloading Problem (was: California Libraries in Dire Need)
Summary: Education isn't a public good; informed voting is.
Date: 29 Jul 92 13:25:13 GMT
Reply-To: howard@hal.com (Howard Gayle)
Distribution: ca
Organization: HaL Computer Systems, Inc., Campbell, California
NNTP-Posting-Host: hasse.hal.com
In-reply-to: asylvain@felix.filenet.com (The Chipmunk)

In article <19083@fritz.filenet.com>, mitch%coriolis.uucp@usc.edu writes:
>  If 1)Schools are a good investment and 2)they are Public 
>goods, things best paid for publicly, we should tax for them.

If education were a public good, then most of the benefits would
go to the public, not to the individual students.  Most students
would thus drop out as soon as possible, and very few would go
to colleges and universities.  College graduates and high school
dropouts would have comparable incomes.  None of this actually
happens because students are able to capture enough of the
benefits from their own educations to motivate them to attend
school.

On the other hand, informed voting really is a public good.  To
vote at all involves some costs in time and privacy.  (Voter
registration information is publicly available.)  Informed
voting costs much more in time to research each candidate, read
newspapers, watch debates, etc.  Almost all the benefit of an
informed vote goes to others, almost none to the individual
voter.

The argument is sometimes made that that tax-supported education
is desirable because educated citizens will be informed voters.
But informed voting will remain a public good, no matter how
well educated the citizens.  In fact, a better economics
education would allow more people to identify informed voting as
a public good.
--
Howard Gayle
HAL Computer Systems, Inc.
1315 Dell Avenue
Campbell, California 95008
howard@hal.com
Phone: 408-379-7000 ext. 1080
FAX  : 408-379-5022
Xref: sparky ca.politics:5917 ba.politics:3702
From: cramer@optilink.UUCP (Clayton Cramer)
Newsgroups: ca.politics,ba.politics
Subject: Re: "Homophobic Rampages"?  A lot of people don't want to think about it
Date: 20 Jul 92 16:57:49 GMT
Distribution: ca
Organization: Optilink Corporation, Petaluma, CA

In article <1992Jul18.174335.17984@gordian.com>, mike@gordian.com (Michael A. Thomas) writes:
> In article <11314@optilink.UUCP>, cramer@optilink.UUCP (Clayton Cramer) writes:
# # Kissing up to the homosexual community (by which I mean, not simply
# # supporting repeal of sodomy laws, but attempting to persuade them
# # that they are really "libertarian") is a long standing tradition
# # of the Libertarian Party -- and one that has never gotten very many
# # votes, but has managed to offend a heck of a lot of decent people
# # into reluctantly voting for jerks like Dannemeyer and Herschensohn.
# 
#   Is that all it would take Clayton, really? Spit on the queers and 
# Libbies could get elected? Or do they need to throw in some support
# for the WOD too? And maybe snuggle up the Randell Terry and his
# flock just for insurance? Boy, oh boy. Sounds like you get -tada-
# A Republican! (Barf)

1. Even if the LP did ALL those things (none of which would be 
libertarian), it wouldn't get the LP elected.

2. The arguments for kissing up to the gay community are increasingly
taking on a pragmatic tone.

# # Much to my surprise, the evidence shows that the long-standing
# # stereotype of homosexuals as child molesters has some evidence
# # to support it.  
# 
#   I can't imagine your shock! Were you sitting down at the time
# this revelation came about? I bet you keep smelling salts around
# the house now, when other Claytonian divinations are revealed.
# 
# 		Michael Thomas	(mike@gordian.com)

I was surprised to find it -- really quite surprised.  But I don't
pass out when I discover something disturbing.
-- 
Clayton E. Cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer  My opinions, all mine!
"Well, maybe the Holocaust was right *for that culture*." -- a moral relativist
with whom I work.
Newsgroups: ca.politics
From: leavitt@cheshire.oxy.edu (Thomas VanNess Leavitt)
Subject: Re: I'm enraged.
Organization: Occidental College, Los Angeles, CA 90041 USA.
Distribution: ca
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 23:15:24 GMT

Yeah, it is amazing that for the past three months, I've managed to feed 
and house myself for under $200 a month.  What a lifestyle.

Thom
From: cramer@optilink.UUCP (Clayton Cramer)
Newsgroups: ca.politics
Subject: The Continuing State Budget Crisis
Date: 23 Jul 92 22:26:58 GMT
Organization: Optilink Corporation, Petaluma, CA


I've noticed an interesting and irksome asymmetry with respect to the
State of California's current budget crisis -- while the spending 
authority of the state ceases when no budget is in effect, their
taxing authority is not similarly restrained.  Does anyone think
that making this a symmetrical arrangement might not encourage a
more rapid solution to the problem?  Or perhaps I could give the
next shopkeeper who asks for sales tax a "registered warrant" for
the 7.5%...
-- 
Clayton E. Cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer  My opinions, all mine!
"Well, maybe the Holocaust was right *for that culture*." -- a moral relativist
with whom I work.
Xref: sparky ca.politics:6155 ba.politics:3889 talk.politics.misc:36662
From: kane@buast7.bu.edu (Hot Young Star)
Newsgroups: ca.politics,ba.politics,talk.politics.misc
Subject: Evidence that Homosexuals are NOT Overrepresented Among Pedophiles
Date: 30 Jul 92 20:04:40 GMT
Followup-To: ca.politics
Organization: Astronomy Department, Boston University, Boston, MA, USA
Originator: kane@buast7.bu.edu

Found in "Homosexuality: A Research Guide", by Wayne R. Dynes, Garland
Publishing, New York, 1987.
=============================================================================
[p 607]

Groth, A. Nicholas, and H. Jean Birnbaum, 1978  "Adult Sexual Orientation and
Attraction to Underage Persons", Archives of Sexual Behavior, 7, 175.

"Suggests that homosexuality and homosexual pedophilia may be mutually
exclusive and that the adult heterosexual male constitutes a greater
risk to the underage child than does the adult homosexual male."

[p 609]

Newton, David E., 1978 "Homosexual Behavior and Child Molestation: A Review
of the Evidence", Adolescence, 13, 29.

"Existing studies provide no reason to believe that anything other than a
random connection exists between homosexual behavior and child molestation.
The typical offender is a heterosexual male."

[p 610]

Quinsey, Vernon L. 1977 "The Assessment and Treatment of Child Molesters: A
Review", Canadian Psychological Review, 18, 204.

"Compared to heterosexual child molesters, homosexual offenders choose older
(pubescent) partners, are more likely to be recidivists, and are less numerous.
Incestuous child molesters are almost always heterosexual."
==============================================================================

Hopefully this will open some doors for some more rational discussion.

Brian.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
kane@{buast7,astro}.bu.edu (Hot Young Star) Astronomy Dept, Boston University,
Boston, MA 02215. True personal salvation is achieved by absolute faith in
oneself.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Newsgroups: ca.politics
From: dbrus.Unify.Com.ceb@unify.uucp (Caroline E. Bryan)
Subject: Email address for Dems?
Reply-To: dbrus.Unify.Com.ceb@unify.uucp (Caroline E. Bryan)
Organization: Unify Corporation, Sacramento, California
Distribution: ca
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 92 17:56:44 GMT

Does anyone know the email address(es) of Democratic candidates?


Carrie		ceb@rechenau.unify.com	x6244
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Newsgroups: ca.politics