HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: cramer@optilink.UUCP (Clayton Cramer)
Newsgroups: soc.motss,talk.politics.misc,ca.politics,ba.politics
Subject: Homophobic Majority?
Date: 15 Sep 92 20:51:09 GMT
Organization: Optilink Corporation, Petaluma, CA

In article <1992Sep12.191113.12344@wam.umd.edu>, lovegod@wam.umd.edu (Donald Andrew Agarrat) writes:
> In article <12272@optilink.UUCP> walsh@optilink.UUCP (Mark Walsh) writes:
# } The person with the private business who will not give
# } service to blacks and gays will lose the business of blacks,
# } gays, you, me, and most good people.  I call this economic
# } darwinism.  As a landlord, I will rent to any gay or black
# } person who seems to be a fit tenant.  If some turkeys down
# } the street won't rent to blacks and gays, that is their
# } loss and my gain.
# 
# That sounds very generous of you in theory.  But how many "yous" are there  
# compared to "thems"?  You plan on building a chain nationwide?

If the Mark Walshs of this country are that outnumbered by the
Lou Sheldons of this world, that how do you get such laws passed
in a democracy?  Aren't you admitting that most people in America
disapprove of homosexuality, and you have to use political influence
to enforce your moral code on the majority?

# } A few years back, I went into a very gay restaurant in
# } San Francisco.  They would not serve me, because I was
# } 'not their type.'  I went down the street to Cafe Trieste
# } which did serve me.  I reflected upon this, and I thought
# } that it was great that the workers of the first restaurant
# } had actually exercised their right to do business with who
# } they please.
# 
# That's wondeful.  Some gays DO stoop to the same stupidity as their hetero  
# counterparts.  Are gays supposed to be somewhat "better" or more politically  
# correct than someone else.  I think that's more stereotypical than anything  
# else ...

His point was that if homosexuals want to discriminate against
heterosexuals in a private business, that's their right too.

# } I implore you to resist legislation granting special
# } governmental priviledges to gays.  While the government
# } should never discrimate against anybody (as they now do
# } in the military), to grant special priviledges would only
# } serve to drive a wedge between those who have said
# } priviledges, and those who have not.  Let those of us who
# } desire to treat each other as equals, do so without
# } governmental intervention.
# 
# In other words, leave it up to a homophobic majority to treat gays with equity.   
# Is it me, or does that sound really dumb?
# 
# Donald

If the majority is homophobic, as you claim, then how do you expect
to get these laws passed in a democracy?

Homosexual fascism describes Donald's position perfectly.


-- 
Clayton E. Cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer  My opinions, all mine!
There can be no peace as long as AB 2601 lives.
Xref: sparky soc.motss:38758 talk.politics.misc:44738 ca.politics:7618
From: cramer@optilink.UUCP (Clayton Cramer)
Newsgroups: soc.motss,talk.politics.misc,ca.politics
Subject: Re: Publicity
Date: 10 Sep 92 19:09:44 GMT
Organization: Optilink Corporation, Petaluma, CA

In article <1992Sep9.174832.8492@spdcc.com>, rdonahue@spdcc.com (Bob Donahue) writes:
> In article <42558@ogicse.ogi.edu> markm@ogicse.ogi.edu (Mark Morrissey) writes:
> >Or _The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich_ (I think that the pocket edition
> >only weighs 5 pounds).
> 
> 	That makes me wonder --- look at how much people have researched
> Nazism.  Yet we still are doing the same things.  The oppressed become
> the oppressors, and people link progress with eliminating undesired
> factions from their communities.  All in all I wonder sometimes if we
> really do learn anything from our mistakes... History would seem
> to suggest otherwise.
> 
> BBC

"Eliminating undesired factions"?  What ARE you talking about?
You want to live in peace, fine.  But until homosexuals stop their
fascist campaign to FORCE straight people to hire or rent to
homosexuals, there can be no peace.

If you want freedom, you darn well better be willing to grant
freedom to others.

I should be fair: there are people that are anxious to "eliminate
undesire factions."  Anyone remember the well known civil libertarian
(in his own words) Vincent Manis:

#None of this relates to the OCA of course. It is my earnest hope that
#they all have red-hot pokers shoved up their butts, and are then
#beheaded and their heads put on pikestaffs outside the state
#legislature.

Now THAT'S an expression of a Nazi-like desire, and doubtless
the reason that Manis is so popular with the crowd in soc.motss.
-- 
Clayton E. Cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer  My opinions, all mine!
Alcohol prohibition didn't work; drug prohibition doesn't work; gun
prohibition won't work.
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: bobsarv@microsoft.com (Bob Sarver)
Subject: Re: Too straight looking to be gay
Date: 04 Sep 92 18:44:24 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corp.



/ (orc)
/    Umm.  I just looked back through the articles, and I don't see the
/ connection between 'don't like' and 'categorical hatred' here on Alan's
/ part.  Flames aside, what is wrong with saying you don't like some
/ behavior, as long as you don't progress to the "I don't do it, so it's
/ evil and should be destroyed" mindset?  



EXACTLY.


Unfortunately, the less well-balanced individuals on the net cannot stand
to have anyone say "I don't like behavior X".  They immediately
escalate such a statement to "I hate gays".  Which, of course, is not what
was said.

What these folks have done is to try and criminalize personal likes and
dislikes, solely because Alan's tastes are not the same as theirs.  This 
is the essence of the conformism of political correctness.  Not only
are they right, by God, but they're going to make sure your mind is 
changed, too--whether you like it or not.


Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: rcrice@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (roger.w.crice)
Subject: Re: not threatening
Organization: AT&T
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 12:44:06 GMT

John Graves observes:
>I would suggest, au contraire, that it is the person who fits into straight
>society and who comes out who may be "too threatening."
>...
>It is the regular type of person who is doing a regular type of job, dressed
>like any other person there, who really shakes up and threatens the average
>bigot.
>...
>Straights can deal with the TV images which make us different.  It's the GBL's
>who are so regular that threaten them.  
>
>I hope they do feel threatened.  I hope they do have to confront their fears.  
>...

When my husband and I are out and about in public, we've noticed
lately that more people have been breaking their necks to look at
us.  Ron thinks he sees a look of fear that was not there before.
He postulates that the fear-mongering of the Republican convention
was successful, and that more usually clueless people are aware of
our presence.  Maybe it's the other way around, that we are more 
aware of the fearful.  

I'm wondering if anyone has noticed the same.  To what might we 
attribute the phenomenon? 

We think we look pretty "average," though perhaps not as sloppy as
the population at large (and before any comments on this remark, 
ask yourself "Have I ever been in a supermarket in Cincinnati?").
I admit we sometimes carry our little black leather clutches (fag
bags), and we wear matching wedding bands, but this is not new 
nor always immediately apparent.

>Or, keep em guessing.

What gives?

Roger 
Recovering Baptist.
From: jhb@calmasd.prime.com (Jim Bishop)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Torch Song Trilogy on TV last night
Date: 12 Sep 92 06:15:38 GMT
Organization: -

In article <1992Sep11.220106.9458@PacBell.COM>, 
rjwill6@PacBell.COM (Rod Williams) writes:
>> adolphso@mizar.usc.edu (adolphson) writes:
>>
>>You shouldn't be all that surprised about McDonald's.  Mrs. Kroc 
>>(whose first name I can't ever remember), the person who *owns* 
>>McDonald's, has tried to make up for the harm her husband did when 
>>he gave money to rightwing causes by giving money to AIDS research
>>among other good causes.
> 
> Joan Kroc.  She was a co-founder, with Norman Lear, of People
> for the American Way, the "liberal" (I put it in quotes
> because it seems so wimpy a word without 'em.  Odd that it
> strikes such terror into apparently most American hearts
> these days :-() answer to the Religious Right.  
> Last time I
> was in San Diego (where Bush still tops the polls |-P), 

Uh, not sure what polls you are seeing, but the local news
station (KNSD, which has this awful "Get it Straight" theme) shows
Clinton in the lead here.  First time a democrat has led in San Diego
since WWII.

> a friend pointed out a strikingly beautiful building on a
> distant ridge-top,  and said it was a new AIDS hospice, built
> with Joan's money.  
>
> She also owns the San Diego Padres(?),
> though that's not necessarily A Good Thing...

I thought she sold the Padres.  (Someone will know.)
This was her husband's pride and joy.

Jim
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: mike@gordian.com (Michael A. Thomas)
Subject: Re: boobs
Organization: Gordian; Costa Mesa, CA
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 03:52:55 GMT

In article <1992Sep15.033035.26427@nevada.edu>, clc@nevada.edu (Chris L. Cobb) writes:
> amz@iguana.cis.ohio-state.edu (Arnold M Zwicky) writes:
> >while we're on the subject, would it be possible to concoct a
> >reasonable Breast Tour of North America?  the Grand Tetons, of course,
> >and The Nipples, east of barstow, ca.  anything else?

   Oh goody, all wested and wewaxed from vacation in central Oregon,
I can say that there are two buttes (volcanos) there called The Twins
and Maiden Peak. The timber line stops just about 500' feet from the
summit, and in the winter they do look for all intents like boobs. 
I suspect that the namers noticed this too...

-- 

		Michael Thomas	(mike@gordian.com)
	"I don't think Bambi Eyes will get you that flame thrower..."  
		-- Hobbes to Calvin
		USnail: 20361 Irvine Ave Santa Ana Heights, Ca,	92707-5637
		PaBell: (714) 850-0205 (714) 850-0533 (fax)
From: dwthoma1@eos.ncsu.edu (DAVID W THOMAS)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Quayle on Homosexuality
Date: 15 Sep 92 16:47:45 GMT
Reply-To: dwthoma1@eos.ncsu.edu (DAVID W THOMAS)
Organization: North Carolina State University, Project Eos
Originator: dwthoma1@c00041-118dan.eos.ncsu.edu



>QUAYLE CONTENDS HOMOSEXUALITY
>IS A MATTER OF CHOICE, NOT BIOLOGY

I kind-of like that Quayle said this.

Now, when others tell me they believe homosexuality is a matter of choice,
I can reply, "Yea, you and Dan Quayle."

-----------------------------
David W. Thomas
dwthoma1@eos.ncsu.edu
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: thaaang@cwis.unomaha.edu (John Dorrance)
Subject: Re: move to canada, eh?
Organization: University of Nebraska at Omaha
Distribution: na
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 01:13:29 GMT

Hey, they got strip joints where the men can go completely naked. Good
reason for me to move...

--
John Dorrance  * Don't fuck with Ms. Congeniality *  thaaang@cwis.unomaha.edu

	Every jumbled pile of person has a thinking part that wonders
	     what the part that isn't thinking isn't thinking of
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: allyn@netcom.com (allyn)
Subject: Fettish in Clear Plastic
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 92 05:38:30 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 

I am curious if there are any other gay men out there who happen to be
into soft clear plastic. I have a strong fettish in clear plastic. I
like to wear clear plastic raincoats and clothes. The type of plastic
I am into is the heavy soft stuff similar to clear shower curtains. I
know that there are those into mummification in saran wrap but that 
turns me off. 

I would like to correspond/meet with others who are into clear plastic
especially if you are in or near the Seattle area. 

Also, I wonder if anyone out there would have any suggestions as to 
where I can meet others who are into this kind of thing. I tried bars
and baths but I was laughed out.

Thanks!!
From: mattm@Apple.COM (Matthew Melmon)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: *Welcome* to Cabal Talk
Date: 9 Sep 92 16:18:37 GMT
Organization: Apple Computer Inc., Cupertino, CA

dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer) writes:

>>...PMS-Envy is such a sorry thing in a queen of advancing years.

>More misogyny.  God, you're such a hateful little twit; how can you be
>surprised at the reactions you engender?  Get thee behind me!  Hmmmn,
>on second thought...ferget it!


Ah, the misogyny angle again...  Yes, well fine.  I have avoided using
female nouns/pronouns/whathaveyou, so I may as well avoid this one to.
I hereby retract PMS-Envy, and shall simply use the orignal:  Penis-
Envy, which under the circumstances, is perhaps better anyway.

Surprised?  You really think I'm surprised?  What a sorry little dweeb,
you are.  Perhaps as sorry as whatever it is I should find were I
actually to get behind you...

Melmac the Unmentionable
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: katbea@auto-trol.com (Kathy Beatty)
Subject: Re: A Short History ofDiscrimination in the Military
Organization: Auto-trol Technology Corporation -- Denver, Colorado
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL3
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 15:31:50 GMT

Lisa, 

Get a grip yourself. All I did in this thread is point out that
we MUST NEVER FORGET or minimalize what was done to those before 1980.
Shawn may not have meant to do that, but that's what he did. 


Kathy
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: mara@panix.com (Mara Chibnik)
Subject: Re: NEWSWEEK POLL: Plurality of Americans support GAY RIGHTS
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1992 09:35:57 GMT
Organization: (getting there)

scott@bbx.basis.com (Scott Amspoker) writes:
 >Even if someday we discover that we *do* have special rights, heterosexuals
 >can always enjoy those same rights by pretending to be homosexual.  So
 >nobody is really being denied anything.

An excellent suggestion.  I'd change "we discover" to "they
discover," though.  Until they discover it, let them struggle along
as best they can.  Let it dawn on them slowly what advantages they
might have if only people believed that they were gay.

-- 

  Mara Chibnik
  mara@panix.com                Life is too important to be taken seriously.

Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: ECL4JN2@MVS.OAC.UCLA.EDU (Jack B. Nimble)
Subject: Re: The Harrassing Phone Calls Can Stop NOW!
Date: 15 Sep 92 19:21:34 PDT

In article <39@bbx.basis.com>, on 14 Sep 92 23:15:47 GMT,
scott@bbx.basis.com (Scott Amspoker) writes:

>
>In article <dvxncwq.phil@netcom.com> phil@netcom.com (Phil Ronzone) writes:
>>I am against any so-called "rights" which are really coercive interference
>>into the right of Freedom Of Association.
>
>Who you invite into your house is your freedom of association.  Beyond that
>it is simply a territorial battle.  No one is forcing you to ever leave the
>house where your freedom of association ends.
>
Things aren't quite that restrictive. Your freedom of association still
extends to most of your other property, such as your car. That is, you
may decide which hitchhiker, if any, you will offer a ride, and if you
happen to base such a decision on class prejudice the government won't
touch you. Likewise, people can and do act upon their prejudices
against classes of people in social settings such as bars, when they
decide whom to talk to and whom to ignore.

>--
>Scott Amspoker                       |
>Basis International, Albuquerque, NM |  Too bad ignorance isn't really
>                                     |  bliss.  Then it could be outlawed.
>scott@bbx.basis.com                  |
>
-jbn
Xref: sparky soc.motss:38641 talk.politics.misc:44468
From: elle@kimbark.uchicago.edu (Ellen Keyne Seebacher)
Newsgroups: soc.motss,talk.politics.misc
Subject: Re: NEWSWEEK POLL: Plurality of Americans support GAY RIGHTS
Date: 9 Sep 92 19:06:11 GMT
Reply-To: elle@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations

Alan Batie writes:
>This is a Must Read issue of Newsweek --- it has a very good cover story
>on the issue of gay rights, including a wonderful article written by a
>gay author on how we're still human beings.

Perhaps possibly, just possibly, the boycott in 1987-88 affected 
_Newsweek_ just a little?

Just think -- they might even bother to cover the '93 March on Washington!

--
Ellen Keyne Seebacher            elle@midway.uchicago.edu
  "Maybe your neighbor is merely straight-acting, a deplorable condition
   from which a full recovery is quite possible." --Jess Anderson
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: jfh@netcom.com (Jack Hamilton)
Subject: Re: accordion bashing
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 92 05:22:29 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)

In article <1992Sep10.092945.1639@wam.umd.edu> jns@wam.umd.edu (J. N. 
Shaumeyer) writes:
> 
>Dearest Arne Adolphson (adolphso@mizar.usc.edu),
>caught somewhat off guard by hearing Jack Hamilton
>confess to being a Gottschalk lover, decides to
>vent his spleen on his very own family values:

Confess?  I celebrate it, my dear, I blazon it forth and shout it from the
rooftops!

(Well, from the front steps, anyway - I haven't actually been up on the
roof lately.)


>And, since Jack almost asked for the answer,
>here are the wind-machine pieces that come
>to mind:
>
>	F. Grofe: Grand Canyon Suite
>	C. Debussy: La Mer
>	M. Ravel: Daphnis et Chloe
>	R. Strauss: An Alpine Symphony
>	R. Strauss: Don Quixote
>	R. Vaughan Williams: Sinfonia Antartica

The Vaughan Williams I knew about; the Strauss and Debussy I'm surprised to
hear about.  The record cover for An Alpine Symphony doesn't mention it,
although it does comment on what the reviewer felt was an excessive amount
of other instruments.

My copy of La Mer definitely did not have a wind machine.  Solo piano and
wind machine *would* be an unusual combination. 

>[ObMotssFlame: What the *hell* are we doing
> talking about wind machines when the thread's
> about accordions?  

Perhaps someone wanted to talk about music?


-- 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Jack Hamilton   jfh@netcom.com   P. O. Box 281107   SF, CA   94128-1107
From: dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Hate mail
Date: 9 Sep 92 16:57:06 GMT
Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting, Cambridge MA

Yeah, I got a similar piece of mail.  Yawn.

-- 
Steve Dyer
dyer@ursa-major.spdcc.com aka {ima,harvard,rayssd,linus,m2c}!spdcc!dyer
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: dfpedro@uswnvg.com (Donn Pedro)
Subject: Oops!
Originator: patti@hosehead
Reply-To: dfpedro@uswnvg.com
Organization: Intel Development Tools Operation, Hillsboro, OR
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 16:52:09 GMT


Hi motssers,

I would like to offer up an apology for what I think I may have done.
I responded to Cramer in talk.politics.misc and did not check his
Newsgroups like.

I apologize for the crosspost and will check a little better in 
the future.

I would post this myself but my company has shut down soc.* groups
because we can only get so much news at 9600 baud.



     Donn Pedro ....................................dfpedro@uswnvg.com

		     There are no ordinary moments.

-- 
Patti Beadles  503/696-4358 | I don't speak for Intel, nor vice-versa.
   patti@hosehead.intel.com |
   75555.767@compuserve.com | Practice random kindness and
or just yell, "Hey, Patti!" |                  senseless acts of beauty.
From: jf@threel.co.uk (John Fisher)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Violence in Scotland
Date: 8 Sep 92 14:12:22 GMT
Organization: 3L Ltd, 86/92 Causewayside, Edinburgh EH9 1PY, UK


This is going out to the gay and straight media today.

---- cut here ---- cut here ---- cut here ---- cut here ---- cut here ----

                     _____
Switchboard          \   /            Lesbian Line
031-556 4049          EGS             031-557 0751
                       v
          PO Box 169, Edinburgh EH1 3UU

PRESS RELEASE

8 September 1992
Survey details follow on separate sheet

VIOLENCE AGAINST LESBIANS AND GAY MEN IS WIDESPREAD

A survey by Edinburgh Gay Switchboard / Lesbian Line has
revealed the horrifying extent of violence against lesbians
and gay men in Scotland.

EGS/LL collected questionnaires from 954 people in gay
venues in Edinburgh and Glasgow.  The survey showed that in
the period April 1991 - April 1992:

   * 119 of those answering had been physically assaulted

   * 33 had been raped

   * 40 had been blackmailed

   * 382 had been verbally abused

   * 127 had been sexually harrassed.

Survey organiser Mark Campbell said: "This is not just a
list of figures;  it's a catalogue of lives wrecked."  And
Depute Coordinator John Fisher said: "Those who stir up
hatred of lesbians and gay men have a lot to answer for."

The survey forms a background to last week's reports of
blackmail and violence against gay men in Glasgow.  Fisher
added: "Although people in general are becoming more
accepting of lesbians and gay men, prejudice and legal
discrimination continue.  That's what makes blackmail and
violence inevitable."

The Switchboard is a charitable trust which offers
information, advice and counselling to lesbians, gay men and
bisexuals in the Lothian Region.
/ends

---new page---

SURVEY DETAILS

                   Men    Women   Sex not   Total   Informed
                                  specified         police
------------------------------------------------------------

All respondents    850       69        35     954 

------------------------------------------------------------

Assault             94       15        10     119       47

Rape                28        4         1      33        6

Blackmail           35        4         1      40        6

Verbal Abuse       227       62         21    381       28

Sexual Harassment   76       44          7    127        4

------------------------------------------------------------

The survey was carried out by a questionnaire distributed at
the Edinburgh Centre for Lesbians, Gay Men and Bisexuals, at
other gay venues in Edinburgh and, with the assistance of
the Strathclyde Gay and Lesbian Switchboard, in gay venues
in Glasgow.  All the respondents were anonymous.

---- cut here ---- cut here ---- cut here ---- cut here ---- cut here ----

--John
From: carlton@scws8.harvard.edu (david carlton)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: A Conversation With Matthew
Date: 10 Sep 92 00:48:49 GMT
Article-I.D.: scws8.CARLTON.92Sep9174849
Organization: Citizens for Boysenberry Jam
In-reply-to: jakec@ralvmm.vnet.ibm.com's message of Tue, 08 Sep 92 19:48:03 GMT

In article <1992Sep08.194803.34012@watson.ibm.com>, jakec@ralvmm.vnet.ibm.com (Jake Coughlin) writes:
> mattm@apple.com (Matthew Melmon):

>> Now, we are not currently in times of economic prosperity.  This implies
>> the most voters will 'feel' that the system needs a change.

> while i agree with this sentiment, there's more to
> a presidential election than economics because
> economics has [have?  Arnold?] political and social
> undertones.

There's more to a presidential election than economics because (to me,
at any rate) having a country's economic indicators be good is not the
ultimate goal in life.  It may help improve the quality of people's
lives, but other things can have equal or greater effect on that.

david carlton
carlton@husc.harvard.edu

       As President I have to go vacuum my coin collection!
Newsgroups: soc.motss