From: zeleny@zariski.harvard.edu (Mikhail Zeleny)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,soc.history,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Hitler's Religion (was re: Instant Yuppies)
Date: 16 Apr 92 03:43:41 GMT
Organization: Dept. of Math, Harvard Univ.

In article <1992Apr15.204346.17154@ucsu.Colorado.EDU>
allenmk@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (Allen Melinda Kay) writes: 

>steinar@otello.solan.unit.no (Cindy Kandolf) writes:

>>Mikhail Zeleny writes:

>>>CEC:[Clayton Cramer]
>>>>By 1937,  Pope Pius  XI had  accused National  Socialism  of
>>>>"secret and  open fundamental  hostility to  Christ and  His
>>>>Church."[2]

MZ:
>>>Note that his successor, Pius XII (reigned 1939--58), an open antisemite,
>>>has suppressed the denunciation of Hitler's regime, which was prepared by
>>>Pius XI shortly before his death.

CK:
>>Also note that this was a _Pope_ saying this.  Hitler and crew were
>>not known for being pro-Catholic.  Without context, we cannot tell is
>>"Christ's Church" here refers to Catholicism specifically or Christianity
>>in general.

AMK:
>I'm taking a course on Nazi Germany at the University of Colorado this
>semester, and my research paper deals with Christian opposition to Hitler's
>anti-Semitic policies.  

Is this one of thesw "world's shortest book" titles, like "Italian War
Heroes", "British Gourmet Cuisine", or "Great American Lovers"?

AMK:
>Based on what I have read, there is no way that Hitler was a Christian, even if
>he claimed to be such (claiming to be and being are two vastly different
>things). 

Of course, the difference is only visible to someone else claiming to be such.

AMK:
>         The Nazis would pray to Hitler rather than to God--for example, 
>children were taught to pray the following before meals:
>
>  Fuehrer, my Fuehrer, bequeathed to me by the Lord,
>  Protect and preserve me as long as I live!
>  Thou hast rescued Germany from deepest distress,
>  I thank thee today for my daily bread.
>  Abide thou long with me, forsake me not,
>  Fuehrer, my Fuehrer, my faith and my light!
>
>Sickening.  Martin Bormann, a devout Nazi, wrote that "National Socialist and 
>Christian concepts are incompatible," claiming that Nazism was based on 
>"scientific foundations," and that Christianity built "upon the ignorance of 
>men."  Whether or not you agree with his statement about Christianity, I hope 
>you agree that Nazism and Christianity are very different and, as Bormann said 
>(I believe it is the only true thing he says in his essay), incompatible.

How convenient that a pathological liar can become so honest for one brief,
shining moment!

AMK:
>Thousands of Christians were sent with Jews to the concentration camps for 
>defying Hitler, refusing to echo his party line.  Among these were Dietrich 
>Bonhoeffer and Martin Niemoeller.  Bonhoeffer argued against any persecution of
>the Jews whatsoever, while (sadly) some Christian leaders only fought for the
>rights of the converted Jews in their churches.  Niemoeller was one of
>these--however, while in the concentration camp, he learned that he needed to
>love each person as a creation of God, whether they agreed with his beliefs or
>not, and that he had a responsibility to help anyone, Christian or not, who was
>suffering persecution.
>
>This was, at least, the open opposition.  I don't think we'll ever really know
>the extent of secret opposition to Hitler--the Christians and others involved
>in hiding Jews or helping them to escape the Reich.  

Why, everyone and his uncle was in the secret opposition!  Just read some
Arendt, or Hilberg, or Furet.  Think of it: if less than one out of ten
Germans were to hide a single Jew, the Final Solution wouldn't have gotten
off the ground!  Isn't hindsight wonderful?

AMK:
>Anyway, this is getting longer than I intended, so I'll go ahead and end it
>here.  

Promises, promises...

>Melinda
> 
>Hitler was very much into the occult and ancient German pagan rituals--the 
>cross and the Bible were removed from the churches and replaced with pictures 
>of Hitler and occult items.  Hitler Youth used the churches, as well as the 
>sites of ancient castles, to celebrate pagan rituals.  Some even believed that
>Hitler was the incarnation of the pagan god Wotan.  

Sounds like you have to look up the difference between heterodoxy and apostasy.

AMK:
>Hitler wasn't a Christian

Is that your new mantra?

>-- 
>Melinda K. Allen                  The LORD is close to the brokenhearted 
>allenmk@ucsu.colorado.edu       and saves those who are crushed in spirit.   
>allenmk@tramp.colorado.edu			               Psalm 34:18 

				 Where was your LORD when his servants
				 were slaughtering my ancestors?

`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'
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: Qu'est-ce qui est grand, fort, faible...                 doesn't   :
: Connais pas! Connais pas!                                 think    :
:                                                             so     :
: Mikhail Zeleny                                                     :
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