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Date:         Wed, 23 Dec 1992 08:28:47 -0800
From:         "greg cox;WR3058" <coxg@WSUAIX.CSC.WSU.EDU>
Subject:      Re: veronica
Comments: To: "Campus-Wide Information Systems"
          <CWIS-L%WUVMD.BITNET@WSUVM1.CSC.WSU.EDU>

On Wed, 23 Dec 1992, C.K.Work wrote:

> Dear all,
>
> I've recently started exploring (and enjoying) Gopher-space. I've also
> tried out Veronica (which, incidently, gets my vote for the most cleverly
> contrived acronym of the year) and am fairly impressed - this is most
> useful, but I wonder if there is potential to make it better still?
>
> Firstly, I gather that the search is based on words actually contained
> within the menu entries on various Gophers - has any thought been given to
> developing a more systematic type of keyword access? Possibly by
> encouraging the use of 'standardised keywords' in a menu entry or by
> generating synonym lists for use by Veronica?

There is a gopher menu item on the Veronica server, I think it is called
Proposals for improving Veronica, or something along that line.  The
inventors list a few of their ideas, as well as their reservations
concerning each idea.  They are thinking along much the same lines as you
Colin; ie limiting searches, specifying subjects, eliminating redundancy, etc.

I believe there is also info somewhere in there about how to get in touch
with the inventors to share ideas in regards to enhancing Veronica.

My experience with Veronica so far has been very impressive; however it is
VERY, VERY slow!  As you mention, it turns up tons of info that you can't
use, and it takes a few whacks at it to get a useful search going.  The
inventors point out that it is running on a small NEXT system currently,
and one of their immediate goals would be to move it up to bigger hardware
and possibly distribute it somehow.

Nothing like a new toy just in time for Christmas!  Happy holidays and
good gopher hunting  :^)

*********************************
Greg Cox
Systems Analyst
Washington State University
COXG@WSUVM1.CSC.WSU.EDU
*********************************
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Date:         Thu, 31 Dec 1992 11:38:30 CST
From:         D-RIST@VM1.SPCS.UMN.EDU
Subject:      NO SUBJECT

Subject:
SUB CWIS-L diana ristenpart

Diana Ristenpart         Phone:    (612) 624-1873
Admin Info Services      Bitnet:   D-RIST@uminn1
University of Minnesota  Internet: D-RIST@vm1.spcs.umn.edu
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Date:         Sat, 26 Dec 1992 01:50:00 EST
From:         00MJJOY@BSUVAX1.BITNET
Subject:      SUBSCRIBE Mike Joy

Subscribe Mike Joy
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Via: uk.ac.southampton; Wed, 23 Dec 1992 10:16:43 +0000
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Date:         Wed, 23 Dec 1992 10:14:09 GMT
From:         "C.K.Work" <C.K.Work@SOUTHAMPTON.AC.UK>
Subject:      Re: veronica
Comments: To: CWIS-L@WUVMD.Wustl.Edu

Dear all,

I've recently started exploring (and enjoying) Gopher-space. I've also
tried out Veronica (which, incidently, gets my vote for the most cleverly
contrived acronym of the year) and am fairly impressed - this is most
useful, but I wonder if there is potential to make it better still?

Firstly, I gather that the search is based on words actually contained
within the menu entries on various Gophers - has any thought been given to
developing a more systematic type of keyword access? Possibly by
encouraging the use of 'standardised keywords' in a menu entry or by
generating synonym lists for use by Veronica?

Also, I wonder if there is anyway that search filters could be introduced -
i.e., allow the user to limit the query to a certain types of resource.
Currently a broad topic (e.g. Chemistry) brings back too much that I'm not
interested in (such as course descriptions at a particular institution).
Can the things that the Gopher menu points to be categorised in some way,
and this categorisation be made known to Veronica?

Perhaps an initial (easy?) step would be to allow Veronica to limit
searches to a geographic area.

These are just some initial thoughts - but it seems to me that with the
proliferation of Gophers (I didn't realise that gophers bred like rabbits!)
users of Veronica will soon be swamped by the many hits for a simple single
keyword query - and it may become unusable for all but the most esoteric
queries. Similar problems occur with WAIS, and I believe some work (ability
to refine searches, boolean support) is being done to address this.

As a general comment, I think that as the internet resource base grows, we
will need retreival tools which are not only capable of roaming the
Internet, but also tools which provide the user with mechanisms for
improving the precision of the search.

Colin K. Work
University of Southampton Computing Services
C.K.Work@Southampton.AC.UK
Organization: The American University - University Computing Center
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 12:01:47 EST
From: <FLANNER@auvm.american.edu>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.cwis-l
Subject: Re: veronica

In article <4411.9212231014@mail.soton.ac.uk>, "C.K.Work"
<C.K.Work@SOUTHAMPTON.AC.UK> says:
>I've ... tried out Veronica ... and am fairly impressed - this is most        t
>useful, but I wonder if there is potential to make it better still?
>Firstly, I gather that the search is based on words actually contained
>within the menu entries on various Gophers - has any thought been given to
>developing a more systematic type of keyword access? Possibly by
>encouraging the use of 'standardised keywords' in a menu entry or by
>generating synonym lists for use by Veronica?

Isn't this what libraries (more specifically, library catalogers) have been
struggling with for 100+ years?  For "standardised keywords" read "subject
headings" or "structured vocabulary."  For "synonym lists" read "cross-
references."  Not that any of this is easy (we haven't solved the problem in
those 100+ years).  But it does indicate where some of the knowledge base for
dealing with this growing dilemma lies.

Patrick Flannery
The American University Library
flanner@american.edu
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Date:         Sun, 3 Jan 1993 00:50:42 +0500
From:         John Doyle <doylej@LIBERTY.UC.WLU.EDU>
Subject:      List of telnet sites
Comments: To: CWIS-L@wuvmd.bitnet

There is a file at liberty.uc.wlu.edu /pub/lawlib that may be of interest
to those keeping up with access information on public-login telnet sites.
The file (veronica.telnet.links) is the result of a tree-walk of Gopher sites.
It contains a list of the telnet links from throughout the Gopher system.
The file is created and updated automatically by an ongoing sweep of all
(known) Gophers.  Each site is likely to be visited once each week so it
should be reasonably up-to-date.  On the defect side, it will not be edited,
so references from different Gophers to the same telnet service will be
duplicated if the reference to the telnet service is formulated differently
(different name, alias, ip instead of name address ...).

To get the file, either FTP to liberty, or else Telnet to liberty and login
as 'lawlib' (if the latter, then search in the index for "veronica").

Below are an example few lines from the file.  It will be a few more days
before the file is reasonably complete.

John Doyle.  Washington & Lee.  doylej@liberty.uc.wlu.edu

---------------------------
Athabasca University - AUCAT - AUCTUS.ADMIN.ATHABASCAU.CA
Augusta College - ACPAC - TELNET ACVAX.AC.EDU
Automated Data System ADS - ads - tycho.usno.navy.mil
BadBoy`s Inn - bbs - badboy.aue.com
Bates College - LADD.BATES.EDU
Bibliotheek Katholieke Universiteit Brabant - kubgids - kublib.kub.nl
Bibliotheek Rijks Universiteit van Groningen - OPC - 129.125.19.10
Bibliotheek Universiteit van Utrecht BRUnet - 131.211.204.40
BIBSYS - Universitetsbibliotekenes database i Norge - Eget brukernavn i BIBSYS -
 129.241.1.61
BIS, the OPAC at NCSU - lib.lib.ncsu.edu
Boston Library Consortium - BLC - BLC.LRC.NORTHEASTERN.EDU
Boston University - LIBRARY.BU.EDU
Bowdoin College - library - LIBRARY.BOWDOIN.EDU
Bowling Green State University - library - ROBIN.BGSU.EDU
Brandon University - LIBCAT - LIBRARY.BRANDONU.CA
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Date:         Mon, 21 Dec 1992 17:36:29 CST
From:         Sue Tyner <1LISXT@UTSAVM1.BITNET>
Subject:      veronica

I have recently heard a fair number of people talking about Veronica.  I
believe that it is a search engine like gopher, archie, and WAIS or it
may be an enhancement to archie or gopher.  Can anyone tell me briefly
what Veronica is and where could I look at how Veronica works?

Thanks for your assistance.

========================================================================
SUE TYNER
ASST DIR TECH SVCS & LIB COMPUTER SYSTEMS
THE UNIVERSITY OF TEXAS AT SAN ANTONIO LIBRARY
6900 NORTH LOOP 1604 WEST
SAN ANTONIO, TX 78249-0671
(210) 691-4576  BITNET:  1LISXT AT UTSAVM1
========================================================================
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Date:         Sat, 2 Jan 1993 07:01:05 CST
From:         "Michael S. Hart" <HART@VMD.CSO.UIUC.EDU>
Subject:      New World Factbook

world192.zip and .txt are being posted to mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu
cd etext/etext93

Contains the elusive Appendix E (Standard and non-standard names
of the various countries included in the almanac.


Happy New Year!

=====================================================

Thank you for your interest,

Michael S. Hart, Professor of Electronic Text
Executive Director of Project Gutenberg Etext
Illinois Benedictine College, Lisle, IL 60532
No official connection to U of Illinois--UIUC
hart @uiucvmd.bitnet or hart@vmd.cso.uiuc.edu
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Date:         Tue, 22 Dec 1992 15:46:16 -0700
From:         "David E. Schwalm" <IACDES@ASUACAD.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Standard English

And mer doesn't even owe me any money!

-- David E. Schwalm, Assoc. Provost for Academic Programs
___Arizona State University West
___4701 West Thunderbird Rd.
___Phoenix, AZ 85069-7100___(602) 543-4500
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Date:         Tue, 29 Dec 1992 22:41:15 -0700
From:         "David E. Schwalm" <IACDES@ASUACAD.BITNET>
Subject:      apology for conferencing

Eric, what do you think about "talking about writing"?

-- David E. Schwalm, Assoc. Provost for Academic Programs
___Arizona State University West
___4701 West Thunderbird Rd.
___Phoenix, AZ 85069-7100___(602) 543-4500
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Date:         Wed, 30 Dec 1992 15:23:56 -0700
From:         "David E. Schwalm" <IACDES@ASUACAD.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Standardizing

Eric, we have encouraged but not required collaboration among the TAs in
teaching, grading, lesson planning etc., but I have found them strangely
resistant to the idea (just as students often resist group work). There are
certain advantages to it, but it also requires structuring of more time for
meeting with collaborators, grading sessions, etc. Also, novice teachers are
often afraid to have someone else in the classroom with them for fear someone
will see them screw up. One thrust of our TA (how about "acculturation"
instead of "training"?) acculturation program is get TAs used to having
someone in the room other than their students so that they won't panic at some
future time when "evaluators" show up, so that they will be willing to welcome
the next batch of new TAs into their classrooms. This is a tough fight. We
have a "peer coaching" program in which TAs visit each other's classes a
couple three times a semester and record their observations (not judgments) of
what went on and share those observations privately with the host teacher.
This is pretty benign, but it creates a lotof anxiety. As part of our general
educational acculturation to "rugged individualism," (both as students and
teachers), team teaching or other kinds of collaboration is seen as 1)
threatening and 2) time consuming.

-- David E. Schwalm, Assoc. Provost for Academic Programs
___Arizona State University West
___4701 West Thunderbird Rd.
___Phoenix, AZ 85069-7100___(602) 543-4500
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Date:         Mon, 28 Dec 1992 10:48:00 CST
From:         SLATIN@UTXVM.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Standard English

To Dave Schwalm, on the difference/distance between professor-types and
graduate assistants, and who knows more than whom about what, when, wherefore,
and so on:

Just a reminder: what became the Daedalus software we've spent so much time
discussing on this list was created by graduate students, not by faculty with
PhDs in hand.  It's precisely because the graduate students know so much and
are so damn creative that I find it worth spending so much time and trouble
and energy running the Computer Research Lab and scrounging for money.  I
learn from the graduat students all the time, perhaps more than they learn
from me-- I have no way of telling, and it doesn't really matter anyway, does
it? They know how to do some things I would have thought "undoable," and vice
versa; and so I try to work with them as collaboratively as possible,
developing relationships roughly analogous, I think, to those described by
John B. Much of what I can contribute has to do with (sigh) institutional
perspective: that is, theone thing I *know* I know more about than my students
do is the University and the way it's organized (or disorganized).  In most
cases, I know more about computers and how they work, too.  I've read things
they haven't read-- but they've also read things I haven't read.

I ramble.  I should have quit with the line about what became the Daedalus
software-- that's all the evidence I need to keep me humble.

John Slatin
UT Austin
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Date:         Mon, 28 Dec 1992 13:07:26 AST
Comments:     <28DEC92.14183436.0026.MUSIC@UNB.CA>
From:         Russ Hunt <HUNT@UNB.CA>
Subject:      Standardizing Composition Classe

> Let's hear why you think we should drop the first-year writing requirement.
     Before (or as) the Grinch tells us why we should drop it,
I'd like to hear any solid, persuasive argument FOR it except the
economic one (it supports a lot of good people in graduate school
and teaching positions).  It seems to me it's a lot like having a
defense plant in your town.
                                    -- Russ
                                __|~_
Russell A. Hunt            __|~_)_ __)_|~_   Learning and Teaching
Department of English      )_ __)_|_)__ __)     Development Office
St. Thomas University        |  )____) |        EMAIL: hunt@unb.ca
Fredericton, New Brunswick___|____|____|____/  FAX: (506) 450-9615
E3B 5G3   CANADA          \                / PHONE: (506) 452-7700
                       ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Date:         Sat, 2 Jan 1993 11:09:40 CST
From:         Eric Crump <C509379@MIZZOU1.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Standardizing Composition Cl

On Fri, 1 Jan 1993 22:11:10 -0700 David E. Schwalm said:
>The trick is to get your technology
>people to recognize the role computers paly in access to information, not just
>in various kinds of operations.
>
Exactly right, David. And you have to convince technical people that
folks in the humanities have the need and deserve the privilege of
using computers for communication. Best way I know of to do that is
to get to know a few people in the computing department, take them
out for coffee, invite them to be involved in your schemes, offer
to help *them* in any way you can.

--Eric Crump
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Date:         Tue, 29 Dec 1992 23:31:00 EST
From:         FRANKLIN@BRANDEIS.BITNET
Subject:      RE: High school/college comp courses

Rhoda Carroll is right that high school certainly sets the level of expectation
regarding comp and college writing in general. This is positive inasmuch as
some students actually do get a pretty good background, learning how to express
their own feelings, history, and aspirations in words--no mean feat. What I
don't see them getting, however, is a background in the kind of analysis
expected in college-level papers (whatever the shortcomings of that genre) or
in the rhetorical skills which would enable them to argue productively with
their peers. In other words, what I think we have to teach is not comp but
rhetoric. Most of my students (I am a John Burt-trained TA) come in able to writ
e a good narrative but not able to write ABOUT a good narrative.
George Franklin
Brandeis
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Date:         Sun, 3 Jan 1993 16:02:00 EST
From:         Joel Nydahl <NYDAHL@BABSON.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: WIOLE

Eric -- Count me in, too.

Joel Nydahl
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Date:         Mon, 21 Dec 1992 20:37:39 CST
From:         Irvin Peckham <peckham@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Standard English
              92 2:38 pm

> My first thought is, "That'd never fly here." I am currently embroiled in an
> effort to create a "common" syllabus for all sections of freshman
> writing--the administration at my school is concerned that all sections of
> our writing classes have roughly equivalent experiences and assignments.
> While I am resisting the push to make the sections identical, I can see the
> administration's point: there needs to be some assurance that an "A" in one
> section means the same thing as an "A" in the next.
>
> must live with.  How is it possible to maintain a situation where students
> write for real audiences and purposes and still maintain a fairly homogenous
> writing curriculum?  Any ideas?
>
You didn't ask me, but . . . a couple of ideas.
You can have everyone write, for instance, personal experience essays,
memoirs, problem solution essays, evaluations, profiles, position papers,
editorials, book reviews, interpreations of literature.  They don't have
to all be reading the same thing.  It does work best with some of these
kinds of writing if they work in groups, though, where they can share
information, ideas, drafts, etc.  You can have groups interpret, for
example, stories in a collection for other groups who may have read them
but not looked at them closely.  Something like Steinbeck's Pastures of
Heaven works great here.  If you wanted, you could then have the whole
class write a long essay on the book (assuming that you don't have
to write the long essay in the traditional linear fashion).

--
Irvin Peckham
University of Nebraska at Omaha
peckham@unomaha.edu
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Date:         Mon, 21 Dec 1992 08:32:48 -0600
From:         RONRON@USU.BITNET
Subject:      Re: (Fwd: *C&CD*) RE: RE: But what can we isolated YouEssers do?
              (3)

Liz--On laughing to scorn.  There are two threads here I want to keep separate.
One is the multi-lingual nature of Europe.  They are because they have to be
.  I recall a conversation I heard in the hall at the student center the other
day between a cowboy and an African student. The African said he spoke five
languages and asked how many the cowboy spoke (how does one represent
condecension?).  The cowboy replied, "Enough to be understood anywhere in
the world."  Naturally they were both right and both wrong.


The other thread is dialects.  Dialects are much stronger in Germany than
in the US, so much so that a Northern German says of one South German dialect,
"It's not a language; it's a throat disease."  However, everyone, even speakers
of a certain dialect, view that dialect as a debased form of the only real
language, high German.  Were I to start a discussion of the merits of, for
instance, Bavarian, I would be met with mostly blank looks.  It seems to
me that in the US we pay much more attention, official and otherwise, to
linguistic and language variety than they do in Europe.  And have more
sympathy for it.  Ron Shook
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Date:         Sat, 2 Jan 1993 21:47:13 EST
From:         Roni Keane <VKEANE@CCVM.SUNYSB.EDU>
Subject:      Re: WIOLE

Eric,

Count me in. --Roni
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Date:         Wed, 23 Dec 1992 13:00:11 -0700
From:         "David E. Schwalm" <IACDES@ASUACAD.BITNET>
Subject:      RE: Standardizing sections of composition

John, it sounds as if you have a staff small enough that you can work out a
syllabus with each person. I had a staff of 89 TAsand about 30 adjunct
faculty. This is the problem I was addressing with Marcy. When you have a big
program with minimal faculty involvement, you can't do certain good things. At
UTEP, wee had a faculty mentor for every 2 or 3 TAs; they worked as a team,
planned classes together, sat in on each other's classes, and so on. In that
situation, we could work with program goals and objectives without a standard
syllabus. In our program, we have one mentor to every 120 instructors. And
sure, as instructors get knowledge, experience, and confidence, they can an do
experiment with new methods, new readings, different texts--methods and
materials that support the goals of the program.

-- David E. Schwalm, Assoc. Provost for Academic Programs
___Arizona State University West
___4701 West Thunderbird Rd.
___Phoenix, AZ 85069-7100___(602) 543-4500
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Date:         Sat, 2 Jan 1993 21:12:40 CST
From:         Irvin Peckham <peckham@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>
Subject:      Re: apology for conferencing

Eric:
With regard to no writing center and conferencing:
I started here a year and a half ago--first person with
any rhetoric and comp degree.  Nope:  no writing center.
Quite a few other things we are doing without, too.
But listening in on many of the conversations here
have certainly given me ideas of direction.  We do
have a "learning center."  I suspect that if I had
time, I might be able to orient a portion of that
toward a writing center.  Hmmm.

I appreciate the functions of conferencing--particularly
in the writing center situation.  Maybe a part of my
challenge is to teach students how to do in my classroom
what others do in writing centers.
Irv
--
Irvin Peckham
University of Nebraska at Omaha
peckham@unomaha.edu
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