HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: dmark@acsu.buffalo.edu (David Mark)
Newsgroups: rec.birds
Subject: Re: Churchill, Ross' Gull, and Baird's Sparrow
Date: 5 Nov 92 23:59:55 GMT
Organization: UB

In article <Bx9C0s.H3D@zoo.toronto.edu> rising@zoo.toronto.edu (Jim Rising) writes:
>
>Baird's Sparrow (Ammodramus bairdii). Saskatchewan's the place
>to look for this species, especially central Saskatchewan.  They
>can be locally common around Saskatoon, Last Mountain Lake,
>Watrous.  Look in fields with matted dead grass--grazed but not
>frequently burned.  Also dry, grassy lakebeads (during dry years).
>Tony Lang, I'm sure, will post more tips here.  Get a record of
>the song.  It is easily learned, quite distinctive, and carries
>a long way.
>

For several consecutive years in the early 1980s, I had success finding
Baird's Sparrow in extreme southwestern Manitoba, south of Brandon, and
especially around Melita.  Jim's description of the habitat seems right.
I always looked for tall brown weedy plants, a dock-like seed head.  The
song to me sounds like the first 4 notes of Beethoven's 5th symphony:
three musical chips on the same note, followed by a lower trill.

David Mark
dmark@sun.acsu.buffalo.edu
From: ignaz@bill.astro.uu.se (Ignaz Wanders)
Newsgroups: rec.birds
Subject: Re: Kiting vs "kiting"
Date: 7 Nov 1992 14:45:39 GMT
Organization: Uppsala University
Distribution: world
Reply-To: ignaz@astro.uu.se
NNTP-Posting-Host: bill.astro.uu.se

It seems to me that this discussion becomes an endless one. Please allow
me to make some (hopefully sensible) remarks to come closer to an end.

It all started with the question "Which is the largest hovering bird?".

Everyone will agree that this depends on the definition of the word
hovering. Two possibilities (regardless of what dictionaries say because
they are quite often wrong or slightly wrong in scientific definitions):
1) only hummingbirds hover. So which is the largest hummingbird?
   Hummingbirds have a completely different wing movement than all other
   birds so fall necessarily in a different class. Only hummingbirds can
   stand near-perfectly still in the air or fly sideways or backwards.
2) Hovering means 'standing still' in the air which automatically
   qualifies many raptors to be able to hover. Then there is the
   question do these birds really stand still or do they fly against the 
   wind with equal speed so that they stand still relative to the ground,
   but not to the air. This is what the Birder's handbook says. IMHO,
   the birder's handbook is wrong on this point. Even if there is no
   wind, many raptors can stand still in the air. A kestrel would get
   very hungry if there were no wind for a few weeks. Aerodynamically,
   by tilting the wings and flapping heavily these birds can change flight
   direction from upward plus forward towards upward only. Gravity
   takes care of the fact that they don't move upward but stand still.
   This is perfectly possible without wind, at least for many raptors.
   Of course, raptors will make use of the wind if there is any because
   then it will take less energy to stand still, i.e. they don't have
   to tilt there wings that much and can fly more forward, thereby carrying
   less of there own weight.

So, the question remains: What IS the largest hovering bird in either
of these two classes? Don't forget the ostrich which can stand perfectly
still with respect to the air :-)


----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ignaz Wanders                 * Tel: +46-18-515208, FAX: +46-18-527583
          * Astronomiska observatoriet, Box 515, 75120 Uppsala, Sweden
            * Ignaz@astro.uu.se (Internet); 21619::laban::ignaz (SPAN)

   "Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists 
elsewhere in the Universe is that none of it has tried to contact us"
                                            --- Calvin ---
From: br105@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Jeffrey A. Del Col)
Newsgroups: rec.birds
Subject: Kiting vs "kiting"
Date: 5 Nov 1992 14:00:13 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: br105@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Jeffrey A. Del Col)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


When I used the term "kiting" in a recent posting about the largest
hovering bird, I was referring to the behavior of paper, stick and string
kites, not the birds. Kites, if properly flown, hang on a headwind in one
spot, the way kestrels and other raptors do at times.

No large bird hovers in the way that hummingbirds do; they don't have the
wing structure or range of motion that would allow it.  Hummers can park
themselves in mid-air indefinitely, something no large bird can do

Yeah, I know, "indefinitely" means "forever" if you're a nit picker, but what
is meant here is that it is a normal mode of flight for them that they employ
at will for much longer periods of time than any other birds.  

I would also think that aren't any "authoritative" definitions of these
terms.  Afterall, this is bird-watching, not torts and contracts.


It would be an interesting piece of research to see whether hawks or other
large birds can maintain a hover in still air the way a hummer can; I suspect
that there is at least some headwind involved for any bird other than a 
hummer.  I can see it now--a video dissertation or an entrant on America's
Favorite Bird Videos.  ;-)

BTW and just to muddy the issue some more, don't some pollen and nectar
eating bats hover in front of the flowers they feed on?  Merlin Tuttle,
where are you when we need you?

J. Del Col
-- 
Jeff Del Col      *   "Cats are loners, and the paths they take in prose      
A-B College       *    belong to them alone."   --Jacques Roubaud--
Philippi, WV      *                             LA BELLE HORTENSE
                  *         
Newsgroups: rec.birds
From: The Internet Surfer <rs18@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: The American Birding Association
X-Xxdate: Wed, 11 Nov 92 23: 49:56 GMT
Nntp-Posting-User: rs18@cornell.edu
Organization: Cornell University
X-Useragent: Nuntius v1.1.1d9
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 23:41:18 GMT

Your experience sounds like mine.  However, I appreciate the 
ABA's publications because of their identification articles, which
have a lot to do with what I consider birding as well as what 
many ABA members consider birding (i.e., listing).  I would 
suggest you also join another group, preferably a local one, which 
focuses on birding or environmental concerns.  I personally
don't like Audobon (I am not a member; Audobon members take this
with a grain of salt) because in the past decade they seem to 
be heavy into the central litigation end of conservation while
neglecting the local chapters (and neglecting birds and their 
history; they ditched the egret, didn't they?).  
     Not to throw rocks; there are many good groups out there, 
and though I can't contribute a lot (and you might be in this
boat ), groups gain political clout not only through $$$ but also 
by numbers of members.  I would 
suggest you join a local birding group if you want to learn more 
about birds, or the Nature Conservancy or NASor some other organ-
ization for conservation.  I belong to Cornell's Laboratory of
Ornithology in addition to the ABA.
###############################################################
The internet surfeR   L33@cornellc.bitnet      rs18@cornell.edu
###############################################################
                Yow!  It's the minivan of souls!
From: sandee@Think.COM (Daan Sandee)
Newsgroups: rec.birds
Subject: Re: Mpls area
Date: 10 Nov 1992 19:51:26 GMT
Organization: TMC
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: telecaster.think.com

In article <1992Nov10.184623.13692@news2.cis.umn.edu>, bloc0017@student.tc.umn.edu (The DuDe) writes:
|> 	I live in the Mpls, Minnesota area and I was wondering if anyone
|> out there knows of any good places to go birding,  I woudl like to stay
|> close but I guess I could travel a couple of hours but I would be very
|> intrested in knowing of some good places around here

The authoritative guide, of course, is Kim Eckert's, but it's out of print.
A new revision is imminent.
In the meantime, out of the top of my head :
Minnesota River valley, from Ft Snelling up to Black Dog Lake. Much of it
is a park. Black Dog Lake itself is good for ducks when everything else is
frozen.
Como Park in St Paul.
Sherburne NWR, about an hour's drive along US 10.
Mississippi River Valley from Hastings downward.
Duluth is always good in fall and winter, but it's a long drive.
Rochester (90 miles) to look at the geese, looks much like an open-air zoo.
The local RBA hotline is 827-3161 (new number). Apparently Bob Janssen
has retired.

Otherwise, if you're in Minnesota in winter and want to see birds, the
best way is to get as far away from it as possible. Hey, I spent two winters
in the Twin Cities. I know what I'm talking about.
Good luck.

Daan Sandee                                           sandee@think.com
Thinking Machines Corporation
Cambridge, Mass 02142                                 (617) 234-5044
From: jmartin@clark.edu (John Martin)
Newsgroups: rec.birds
Subject: Re: Bushnell Scopes
Date: 10 Nov 92 21:31:11 GMT
Article-I.D.: jmartin.jmartin-101192132619
Followup-To: rec.birds
Organization: Clark College

In article <1992Nov9.210439.6813@adobe.com>, jfinger@adobe.com (Jeff
Finger) wrote:
> 
> After conferring with various people, I came to the conclusion that the
> Bushnell Spacemaster II was the best value. Upon further checking I find
> a number of complications:
> 
> 1. Spacemaster II
>    + 70mm scope. 
>    + no longer made
>    + still available with a 22x eyepiece for about $200. 
>    + focusing mechanism is a rocker arm rather than helical 
>      (the little wheel on the side of the scope).
> 
> 2. Spacemaster
>    + 60mm scope
>    + $200 with 22x eyepiece
>    + Helical focusing mechanism
> 
> 3. Spacemaster with ED Prime glass. 
>    + 60mm scope
>    + $340
>    + Helical focusing mechanism
> 
> 4. Bushnell makes a extra long relief eyepiece for about $40.
> 
> Questions:
>     1. Does anyone know why the 70mm scopes aren't made anymore? Maybe the
>        "best value" is no longer available through Bushnell.
>     2. Is the ED Prime glass significantly better than the regular glass?
>     3. Did the SpaceMaster II formerly come with helical focus? Rocker
>        arm focusing seems pretty horrible.
>     4. Do the extra long relief eyepieces work well with eyeglasses?
> 
> Any opinions would be welcome. I'd be happy to summarize.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> -- Jeff Finger --
	I have a Spacemaster scope (~1978 vintage) with a helical focus.  It works
great even after dropping it and other mistreatments.  I also have the use
of a rocker arm focus scope from my school.  The helical focus is much
better.  On class field trips the rocker arm focus scope usually remains in
the van while the helical focus scope is used by the students.
jmartin@clark.edu
Newsgroups: rec.birds
From: rising@zoo.toronto.edu (Jim Rising)
Subject: Pt. Reyes Birds
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 21:01:40 GMT
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology

Sounds like your sparrow could be a west coast Fox Sparrow.  When
you say "normal sparrow size," however, note that the Fox Sparrow
is a very large sparrow, and the west coast ones (cf. Passerella
iliaca fuliginosa) should be very dark chocolate brown.  Out
there a gull with a red bill almost has to be Heermann's (Larus
heermanni).  Adult in winter has a gray head that is approximately
the same color as the body. These are both illustrated in the
Nat. Geog. Soc. "Field Guide to the Birds of North America" which
I recommend to you.
-- 
Name:     Jim Rising
Mail:     Dept. Zoology, Univ. Toronto, Toronto, Ontario, Canada    M5S 1A1
UUCP:     uunet!attcan!utzoo!rising 
BITNET:   rising@zoo.utoronto.ca
From: adams@pyramid.unr.edu (Brian Adams)
Newsgroups: rec.birds
Subject: Re: Largest Hovering Bird?
Date: 8 Nov 92 20:52:09 GMT
Reply-To: adams@pyramid.unr.edu (Brian Adams)
Organization: University of Nevada, Reno  Department of Computer Science

Rough-legged Hawks, probably the most massive Buteo, often hover while
hunting, on beating wings. This bird gets my vote, at least in N. America,
for the largest hoverer.

Brian
From: lbrother@zia.aoc.nrao.edu (Larry Brothers)
Newsgroups: rec.birds
Subject: From my 'office' window
Date: 11 Nov 92 12:09:03 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: National Radio Astronomy Observatory, Socorro NM

Yesterday morning, Nov. 10, from my 'office' window (the control room
of the Very Large Array :-), I watched as a ferruginous hawk chased a
harrier past a radio telescope antenna upon which was perched a
peregrine falcon.

I love this job!

Larry
lbrother@banshee.vla.nrao.edu
Newsgroups: rec.birds
From: hoyerr@ucs.orst.edu (Richard Hoyer)
Subject: Re: Kiting vs "kiting"
Organization: University Computing Services - OSU
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 20:53:22 GMT

In article <1dgkqjINNjb1@corax.udac.uu.se> ignaz@astro.uu.se writes:
>It seems to me that this discussion becomes an endless one. Please allow
>me to make some (hopefully sensible) remarks to come closer to an end.
>
>It all started with the question "Which is the largest hovering bird?".
>


Remember-the question asked which is the largest hovering bird that can hover
ALA HUMMINGBIRD.  The answer is Giant Hummingbird from the Andes.
Newsgroups: rec.birds
From: tgl@ssd.kodak.com (Tom Lathrop 588-0677)
Subject: Unidentified birds at Point Reyes
Originator: tgl@jupiter
Organization: Eastman Kodak
Distribution: ba
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 92 23:15:06 GMT

Last week, on the way to Point Reyes and later at Point Reyes, I
saw two birds of the same type. They were the size and shape of a
typical sparrow, mostly solid brown with white stripes on the throat
and breast. There was a bit of a breast spot, and a light eye ring.
The bill was sparrow-like. The top of it was bluish, the bottom yellow.
One of these birds was in a bush eating berries, the other was scratching
in the sand. The closest bird in the field guide is a fox sparrow, but
they don't show the west coast form. Were these fox sparrows?

Also at Point Reyes, I saw some gulls which were all grey with a red
bill. I think they were Heermann's Gulls, but the field guide makes it
look like the head is lighter than the body. Is it normal for them to
be solid grey this time of year, or were they perhaps immature birds?

I really enjoyed birding in the Bay Area, particularly the Palo Alto
Baylands and Point Reyes. There is a large variety of interesting birds,
and you can often get quite close. Thanks to those who sent me suggestions
of where to go when I posted my query a month or so ago.

Tom Lathrop
tgl@sector.com
Newsgroups: rec.birds
From: andrewt@watson.ibm.com (Andrew Taylor)
Subject: Re: Kiting vs "kiting"
Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1992 16:49:28 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center


In article <1db9ddINNnv8@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> br105@cleveland.Freenet.Edu
(Jeffrey A. Del Col) writes:
>It would be an interesting piece of research to see whether hawks or other
>large birds can maintain a hover in still air the way a hummer can;

"Some birds such as Kestrels, remain motionless "wind hovering" above
a point on the ground by flying into the wind at a speed equal to it
and other birds hover momentarily while foraging. Hummingbirds, on the
other hand are able to remain in the same place in still air as long
as they desire" - The Birder's Handbook

You often see Australian Kestrels and Australian Black-Shouldered Kites
(Elanus sp.) beating their wings rapidly and remaining stationary with
respect to the ground. I'd assumed they were hovering but the above quote
seems to indicate they are flying into a headwind.

Eastern Spinebills, an Australian Honeyeater, will hover next to flowers to
feed. They can do this for at least 10 seconds. They are the same size
as the largest hummingbirds.

>When I used the term "kiting" in a recent posting about the largest
>hovering bird, I was referring to the behavior of paper, stick and string
>kites, not the birds.

Etymologically, they should be similar as the man made Kites are named for
the Milvus kites which occur in Britain.

Andrew Taylor
Newsgroups: rec.birds
From: andrewt@watson.ibm.com (Andrew Taylor)
Subject: Re: penguin etymology
Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1992 02:31:00 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

In article <1d9b26INNefn@early-bird.think.com> sandee@Think.COM (Daan Sandee)
writes:
>Can't remember if this was from the O.E.D., but there is a reference to
>a rock near Newfoundland, where they presumably had a colony, and which
>was known too be called Pengwyn, and assumed to mean "white head" in
>either Welsh or Breton. The birds then supposedly took their name from
>the rock.

The first known use of Penguin (quoted in the OED) refers to a Newfoundland
island named Penguin where birds also called Penguins are found. The OED
doesn't mention the theory that the birds (Great Auks) are named for the
island but Websters does. 

My concern remains. How does a European bird get named from encounters
in Newfoundland?  How did this name get transferred so easily to the Magellenic
Penguin (possibly at the first encounter by English speakers).

I'd be grateful for e-mail from anyone (including Daan) who knows/discovers
more.

Andrew Taylor
Newsgroups: rec.birds
From: rising@zoo.toronto.edu (Jim Rising)
Subject: Churchill, Ross' Gull, and Baird's Sparrow
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 19:12:24 GMT
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology

The train trip to Churchill is interesting (I havn't done it
since the early 70s, so things may have changed).  You see a
lot of interesting Canadian sociobiology that most Canadians
don't have a clue about.  The train moves slowly enough that
you can easily identify things that you see, and there may 
be some stop overs of sufficient time duration that you could
do a little birding around the train.  Having said that, how-
ever, I don't remember seeing very much of interest from the
train.  Always a chance for a Great Gray Owl, but don't count
on it.  I'd advise you to get Bonnie Chartier's book on birding
around Churchill.  I can't give you a good arrival date for
Ross' Gull, but they arrive in early June, I'd guess.  In general,
I wouldn't advise you to go up before that, unless you want a chance
at Rock Ptarmigan  (Lagopus mutus) [sorry, I forgot about Latin
names above:  Great Gray Owl = Strix nebulosa; Ross' Gull=Rhodostethia
rosea].  I'd suggest mid June for a good date for arrival.  At
that time you might catch the tail end of the high arctic birds
going north (e.g. Red Phalarope, Phalaropus fulicaria), the local
breeding birds will be into doing their stuff (lots of shorebird
displaying), Ross's Gull will be there, and the bugs won't be
too bad yet.  

Baird's Sparrow (Ammodramus bairdii). Saskatchewan's the place
to look for this species, especially central Saskatchewan.  They
can be locally common around Saskatoon, Last Mountain Lake,
Watrous.  Look in fields with matted dead grass--grazed but not
frequently burned.  Also dry, grassy lakebeads (during dry years).
Tony Lang, I'm sure, will post more tips here.  Get a record of
the song.  It is easily learned, quite distinctive, and carries
a long way.

Hope this is of some help.
-- 
Name:     Jim Rising
Mail:     Dept. Zoology, Univ. Toronto, Toronto, Ontario, Canada    M5S 1A1
UUCP:     uunet!attcan!utzoo!rising 
BITNET:   rising@zoo.utoronto.ca
From: joeb@atmos.washington.edu (Joe Barsugli)
Newsgroups: rec.birds
Subject: Re: The American Birding Association
Date: 12 Nov 92 01:20:43 GMT
Article-I.D.: eos1.JOEB.92Nov11172043
	<1992Nov11.234118.16878@mail.cornell.edu>
Organization: Dept. of Atmospheric Sciences, University of Washington

In article <1992Nov11.234118.16878@mail.cornell.edu> rs18@cornell.edu (The Internet Surfer) writes:

   [....]
   focuses on birding or environmental concerns.  I personally
   don't like Audobon (I am not a member; Audobon members take this
   with a grain of salt) because in the past decade they seem to 
   be heavy into the central litigation end of conservation while
   neglecting the local chapters (and neglecting birds and their 
   history; they ditched the egret, didn't they?).  

In addition to the National Audubon Society (NAS) there are local
Audubon societies, such as the Seattle Audubon Society where I live.
These local societies seem to have a good deal of autonomy from
the NAS.  In fact, here one can become a member of the NAS, which
makes one a member of the local society as well, with most of the money
going to the NAS, or one can become a "Friend of Seattle Audubon" with
most of the money going to the local society.  I think you don't get a
subscription to the NAS's magazine with the second option. The Seattle
Audubon Society does a lot in the way of local education, habitat
conservation, and field trips.  Perhaps this option exists in your
area and is more to your taste?

I am a not-very-active member of the NAS, and I am considering
switching to the local option because I just don't need another
conservation magazine on my coffeetable.  I hope all the information
above is correct!

Joe Barsugli (joeb@atmos.washington.edu)
From: rhh@alice.att.com (r hardin)
Newsgroups: rec.birds
Subject: Re: How does a flock turn simultaneously?
Summary: Lautreamont
Date: 7 Nov 92 17:44:26 GMT
Article-I.D.: alice.24114
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories, Murray Hill NJ



And what an abundant source of errors and misapprehensions
every half-truth is!  Flights of starlings have a way of flying
which is theirs alone and seems as governed by uniform and
regular tactics as a disciplined regiment would be, obeying
a single leader's voice with precision.  The starlings obey
the voice of instinct, and their instinct leads them to bunch
into the centre of the squad, while the speed of their flight
bears them constantly beyond it; so that this multitude of birds
thus united by a common tendency towards the same magnetic point,
unceasingly coming and going, circulating and crisscrossing in
all directions, forms a sort of highly agitated whirlpool whose
whole mass, without following a fixed course seems to have a
general wheeling movement round itself resulting from the
particular circulatory motions appropriate to each of its
parts, and whose centre, perpetually tending to expand but
continually compressed, pushed back by the contrary stress
of the surrounding lines bearing upon it, is constantly
denser than any of these lines, which are themselves the
denser the nearer the centre.  Despite this strange way
of swirling, the starlings cleave through the ambient air
at no less rare a speed and each second make precious,
appreciable headway towards the end of their hardships
and the goal of their pilgrimage.

Songs of Maldoror, trans. Lykiard, p141
From: aknoll@hprpcd.rose.hp.com (Al Knoll)
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1992 20:40:17 GMT
Subject: How does a flock turn simultaneously?
Organization: HP Roseville Site
Newsgroups: rec.birds

How do they know?  I've often watched flocks of shorebirds turn as if all were
controlled by a single stimulus.  It appears that the turning is initiated
simultaneously and the new vector is commonly known.  ??? Just HOW ???

How do they execute the apparently simultaneous, three dimensional, course and
speed correction without some sort of "program" or communication?

How do schooling fish do the same trick?

Anyone have a reference or the explanation?

al knoll (alf@hpptc44.rose.hp.com)