From: jafitv@termo.unit.no (Jan Arne Fagertun)
Subject: Re: Business (was Re: Immigrants and employment)
Reply-To: jafitv@termo.unit.no (Jan Arne Fagertun)
Organization: SINTEF, Norwegian Institute of Technology
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 92 07:29:44 GMT

In article <1992Aug19.145423.20232@eua.ericsson.se>, euafri@eua.ericsson.se (Fredrik.Ostman) writes:
|> 
|> Yes. Society has a need to see that these people get themselves a job.
|> Therefore, it shouldn't hinder, with taxes on finances and companies
|> and their owners, comprehensive labour legislation, and compulsory 
|> administrative tasks, an entrepreneur to start a new business taking 
|> advantage of the cheap labor available.
|> 


OK, that's a capitalistic/liberalistic way to solve the problem. But
there are other ways.


|> 
|> >|> What's the different between paying people for unemployment and paying
|> >|> them for manufacturing products nobody wants to buy?
|> >Do really nobody want the products ? Isn't what you write above just a
|> >tricky way to say "products nobody can afford to buy" ?
|> 
|> So, what's the difference!?
|> 


The difference is that these products are NOT unnecessary. Milllions
and millions of people are starving to death in Africa nowadays, so
I'm chocked to see that the western economical/political systems can
just waste the production capacity of millions of people, instead of
using it to aid. Aren't you ?


|> 
|> >Ask old people if they consider Russia to be a better society to live
|> >in now !
|> 
|> What use would it be? Don't you think these 70 years have left any
|> traces? Why don't you ask e.g. Vaclav Klaus if he wants to import
|> some socialism from the West! I think it's outrageous to use the
|> situation in Russia today as an argument for socialism. A whole
|> people has been bereft all their hope, all their money, all their
|> faith and social and economic abilities, and you say: "Look how
|> horrible capitalism is!" It's cynic in the words worst sense.
|> 


I think you forget (by purpose ?) that my remark about Russia was an
answer to the attempt to use the situation in Russia (and the Soviet
"socialism/communism") against socialism.

And if you concider it legal to use Soviet and the eastern Europe as an
argument against socialism/communism - shouldn't it be legal to use for
instance some bancrupt Asian country, or Chile, or some Latin-American
dictatorship as an argument against capitalism/liberalism ?

For the record - I don't think either of them should be legal. But I
just get so tired of getting this "look at the dictatorship in Soviet"
reaction whenever I try to discuss problems in Norway / Scandinavia /
Europe.
I don't think you have the guts to try to make a serious discussion,
and that's really a pity, because there is no other way to handle the
problems than to try to find a solution.


|> 
|> 
|> I'm glad you realised that would be stupid.
|> 


!->


|> 
|> >Have you really got 400000 refugees and immigrants during the last 10
|> >years or so ?
|> >I mean, since the problem is the refugees and the immigrants taking the
|> >jobs from the finns ....
|> 
|> No, no, no, no. This is irony.


Yes, this was irony. But it was an attempt to make some people maybe
think a little.


|> It's a drift with the people who claim
|> society should "take care" of all the poor, poor people like unemployed
|> and refugees. There is obviously a lot of hypocrisy involved, since
|> millions and millions of people on earth are unemployed or potential
|> refugees. Either you have a nationalist viewpoint, and then other
|> countries solve their problems by kicking them out to other countries,
|> or you have a global viewpoint, and then, how can you say no?


Can't see my attempt worked particularly well.... :-)

What's your solution ?
Just say "well, they're not my relatives - let them help themselves" ?


|> 
|> In Sweden we know that the system for insuring the unemployed
|> we have doesn't work once it is put to use. After six months the money
|> is spent, and unemployment is only rising. So much for that system.
|> --
|>   ______                     _~
|>  (_/_ _  _  _/) _  . /)     / ) , _/)     _
|> __/ _/(_(/_(/__/(_/_/Z_    (_/_/)_/__/))_(I_/)_
|> 
--

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| Jan Arne Fagertun, Research Engineer, SINTEF Division Thermodynamics|
| E-mail: Jan.A.Fagertun@termo.unit.no                                |
| Phone : +47 7 596890                            Fax  : +47 7 944513 |
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