HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jim@specialix.com (Jim Maurer)
Subject: Re: CalTrain Article
Organization: Specialix Inc.
Distribution: ba
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 02:35:41 GMT

jyc@leo.Stanford.EDU (Jon Corelis) writes:

>adrian@ntmtv.UUCP (Adrian Brandt) writes:

>>Another interesting fact regarding the downtown SF extension issue is
>>that at one time CalTrain was so close to running downtown that notices
>>were put out on trains announcing service to the Ferry Building.  In
>>fact, the official CalTrain schedule at that time (early eighties, I
>>believe) was printed up showing the Ferry Building station stop!  This
>>service was to run on surface streets along moderately upgraded
>>existing track that extended beyond the 4th and Townsend St. station
>>along King St. to the Embarcadero.

>   That's interesting -- I don't remember those plans, probably because
>I didn't use the train that often at that period.

They even ran test service for a week.  I think it was two trains
a day.

>   I do recall though that some months ago I suggested on this newsgroup
>exactly that proposal:  that existing tracks extending from the current
>depot to the Embarcadero should be upgraded to create a downtown
>station.  The result of my posting was numerous followups saying
>basically, "Eeeeeeeee!!!  You can't do that!!!!  What are the *CARS*
>using those streets going to do?!?!?!?!?"

One reason they can't do that now is that SP has pulled up a lot of
the street trackage in that area, and the SF Belt RR on the Embarcadero
is also gone now.  The trackage that is left is in *very* poor shape.
You wouldn't believe the problems I had last July arranging to park
a steam engine and a bunch of cars on the old pullman lead in the
middle of King Street, right by the depot!
From: jciccare@adobe.com (John Ciccarelli)
Newsgroups: ba.transportation
Subject: Re: shuttle bus costs, Castro shuttle options
Date: 9 Jan 93 00:48:44 GMT
Reply-To: jciccare@adobe.com (John Ciccarelli)
Distribution: ba
Organization: Adobe Systems, Mountain View, CA

Kevin Karplus writes:

>If John's figures are accurate, 130 riders a day for 260 working days
>a year is 33,800 riders.  At $80,000, that is $2.37 a rider.  
>...[of which 25% is].(about $155 per rider per year)

Hmm... time for some idle speculation.  I don't know how the $80K 
breaks down, but I'll speculate it's half vehicle (including 
depreciation) and half labor.  $2.37 -- call it $2.50, for a 5 mile 
round trip is 50 cents per passenger-mile.  Compare to 25 cents (?) 
for solo driving in a car you're still making payments on.  Does 
anyone (Adrian?) have the line-item breakdown of CalTrain shuttle 
operating costs for one or more of the routes, especially Castro?

Also, I asked Adobe's commute coordinator if employees could help
pay for the service using the Commuter Check program (employer provides
up to $40/month, in $20 coupon increments, to cover cost of transit
passes).  She said (a) there would have to be a monthly pass, and (b)
it would have to cost at least $20 (because of the Commuter Check
increments (!)).  She said that for now the affected employers were
trying to get a funding agreement worked out that did not include
a charge to riders.  

I also asked if, since employers will now be required to contribute, 
whether they would have some say in running more shuttles (to meet 
the trains that arrive around 7:30 and around 8:10 at the Mountain 
View downtown station, so technical types that often work later than
6:30 could use the train).  She said that was being considered but 
that the January 22 JPB offer specified that none of the specs of
the service could be changed at this time.  

There's also County Transit bus #40 that runs through the North 
Bayshore area, but the bus folks have made no effort to have it 
serve the Castro or downtown MV stations; this bus (unless recent 
service reductions changed or discontinued it) runs from San Antonio 
Shopping Center to the bus yard (a real popular destination :-).

/John

-- 
John Ciccarelli           Adobe Systems,  1585 Charleston |    _~C      __C
jciccare@mv.us.adobe.com  Mountain View CA USA 94039-7900 |  ='\<,    ='\<,
uunet!adobe!jciccare      415/962-6677,  fax:415/903-0584 | (&)/(\)  (&)/(\)
=== "If you live within 7 miles of your job, why drive?" === BIKE TO WORK ==
From: whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Newsgroups: ba.transportation
Subject: Re: SCCo Measure A challenged
Date: 13 Jan 93 00:07:11 GMT
Reply-To: whheydt@PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA

In article <uq2qgds@sgi.sgi.com> jeremy@classic.asd.sgi.com (Jeremy Higdon) writes:
>In article <1993Jan12.164514.15617@pbhya.PacBell.COM>, whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt) writes:
>> In article <1993Jan12.002648.17974@ntmtv> adrian@ntmtv.UUCP (Adrian Brandt) writes:
>> >This is the first half of an article that appeared in the San Jose
>> >Mercury News on Thursday, January 7, 1993, page B-1:
>> >
>> >Transit tax is targeted
>> >
>> >Coalition files suit to nullify Measure A
>> 
>> I think this could be viewed as the reverse of the endless
>> environmental suits filed against various freeway projects.
>
>You have to admit that the various loopholes that local agencies have
>used to get around the 2/3 vote requirement for new taxes is amusing.

Indeed.  I notice there is now afoot an effort to remove the
requirement altogether (at least in some cases where it now exists).

	--Hal
-- 
Hal Heydt                    |    
Analyst, Pacific*Bell        |            You!
510-823-5447                 |    Out of the Gene Pool!
whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM    |
Xref: sparky ba.transportation:3042 ba.sports:692
From: vaf@Valinor.Stanford.EDU (Vince Fuller)
Newsgroups: ba.transportation,ba.sports
Subject: Getting to the 'Stick
Date: 6 Jan 93 21:30:18 GMT
Distribution: ba
Organization: CS Department, Stanford University, California, USA

As luck would have it, it looks like I'm going to be able to go to the playoff
game on Saturday between the Redskins and the 49ers. Any suggestions on how to
get to Candlestick Park from the Peninsula? Does Samtrans or Santa Clara transit
run express busses from major Peninsula points to Candlestick? Is there a good
way to get from one of the north Peninsula Caltrain stations (maybe Bayshore?)
to the park? Any experience on how long any of these options take, both to get
there and to get back and how frequent the service is?

	Thanks,
	--Vince
Newsgroups: ba.transportation
From: mjvande@pbhye.PacBell.COM (Mike Vandeman)
Subject: Re: Alliance for a Paving Moratorium (Alert)
Reply-To: mjvande@PacBell.COM (Mike Vandeman)
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 15:12:39 GMT

>|> I've seen freeways run at or near capacity a lot more often than I've
>|> seen (or read) of rail lines doing the same...
 
Nonsense. The full capacity of a freeway is being full of FULL vehicles. That
means full trucks & buses (no cars -- too wasteful). That NEVER happens.
From: jeremy@classic.asd.sgi.com (Jeremy Higdon)
Newsgroups: ba.transportation
Subject: Re: Alliance for a Paving Moratorium (Alert)
Date: 5 Jan 93 05:32:29 GMT
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc.  Mountain View, CA

In article <1993Jan4.191311.19802@ntmtv>, adrian@ntmtv.UUCP (Adrian Brandt) writes:
> In article <u2h5oeg@sgi.sgi.com>, jeremy@classic.asd.sgi.com (Jeremy Higdon) writes:
> |> one billion per mile of freeway [vs.] 10 to 15 million per mile of light rail
> |> just doesn't wash.  1 billion per mile is at the upper end of freeway costs,
> |> while 10 - 15 million is at the low end of light rail costs.  Typical costs
> |> are about the same, at least in Santa Clara county.
> 
> I don't buy it.  There are too many apples and organges type of factors
> when comparing 85 with Guadalupe Light Rail costs.  Here's the comparison
> you need to make for the sake of this argument:
> 
> [. . . ]

Ok, fine.  The basic assertion I was objecting to is the typical cost
of one billion per mile for freeway versus 10 to 15 million for light
rail.  Depending on cost of land, etc., a freeway may very well cost
more than a rail line, but I don't think the typical numbers are close
to the stated numbers.

jeremy
Xref: sparky ba.transportation:3059 la.general:1162
From: ed@wente.llnl.gov (Ed Suranyi)
Newsgroups: ba.transportation,la.general
Subject: Re: I hate "Rapid" Transit District (RTD)
Keywords: rapid RTD transport
Date: 7 Jan 93 21:08:20 GMT
Followup-To: ba.transportation
Distribution: ca
Organization: UC Davis Dept of Applied Science at LLNL

In article <ui6o5ak@sgi.sgi.com> jeremy@classic.asd.sgi.com (Jeremy Higdon) writes:
>Well, Mr. Bzzt, I think you just made both my points very well.  Taking
>the subway to Logan requires a transfer to a shuttle bus.  Assuming
>it doesn't get derailed (heh heh), SF will have a shuttle car that
>takes you from an external airport Caltrain/BART station into the
>terminals.  It sounds like LAX is planning something similar.

But the thing is that LAX is far too large to be served by a single rail
station in its center.  There are eight terminal buildings, for heaven's
sakes!  So there MUST be some sort of interterminal transit system --
buses now, some sort of rail or people-mover system later.  Consider a
rail line coming into the airport.  Does it make sense to continue this
line around the airport, stopping at all the terminals?  Or isn't it
cheaper, and almost as convenient, to end the line at one of the stops
of the inter-airport transit system, WHICH MUST EXIST ANYWAY.  The
situation is different than at SFO.  At SFO BART might be brought into
the center of the airport, from which it's not terribly far to walk to
anywhere in the airport.  Such a location does not exist at LAX.

Ed
ed@wente.llnl.gov



Newsgroups: ba.transportation,rec.railroad
From: M00209@MBVM.Mitre.Org
Subject: Re: Grade Separations (was Re: CalTrain scheduling musings)
Organization: The MITRE Corporation, Bedford MA 01730
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 16:25:23 GMT

In article <930106161231@cream.ftp.com>
jbvb@vax.ftp.com  (James B. VanBokkelen) writes:
 
>
>In article <16B4D99EB.M00209@MBVM.Mitre.Org> M00209@MBVM.Mitre.Org writes:
>
>    I think you're slightly mistaken about the station.  The old Haverhill
>    Depot about which I could tell you many stories, some pretty gross, was
>    certainly not built in the "20s".  I do not know exactly when the grade
>    was raised, but I think that was also earlier.  My guess on raising the
>    grade, without looking it up, would be between 1905 and 1910.
>
>My belief that the grade separation dates from the '20s is based on
>the bridge.  It shows no signs of significant stregthening, and it
>was capable of carrying R1 4-8-2s, which implies that it was built
>when engines that large loomed on the horizon (the S1 2-10-2s were
>post-WW1, and the T-1 2-8-4s were delivered in 1927 or so, if I
>recall correctly).  Bridges that were built just prior to WW1 were in
>general rated for P3 4-6-2s and K8 2-8-0s.
>
>I never saw the station - I just commuted from Haverhill for 4 years
>and looked at what I could still see.  I could easily accept the
>station being older than the grade separation.
>
>James B. VanBokkelen            2 High St., North Andover, MA  01845
>FTP Software Inc.               voice: (508) 685-4000  fax: (508) 794-4488
>
You've aroused my curiosity sufficiently that I'll look it up and let you and
everybody else know what I find out!   I may not, however, be able to get
confirmed dates for the station and bridge until our next Archives working
session which will be on 1/23.  I know (famous last words # 35!) that the
dates will be available in the Archives.
 
 
Len Bachelder        Archives Committee, Boston and Maine RR Historical Society
MITRE Corp.           Secretary, Massachusetts Bay Railroad Enthusiasts
Bedford MA 01730      Member, 470 Railroad Club
<M00209@mbvm.mitre.org>
 
"Amazing love, how can it be that Thou, my God, should'st die for me!"
                                                 - Charles Wesley
Xref: sparky ba.transportation:3023 la.general:1119 oc.general:136
From: jeremy@classic.asd.sgi.com (Jeremy Higdon)
Newsgroups: ba.transportation,la.general,oc.general
Subject: Re: I hate "Rapid" Transit District (RTD)
Keywords: rapid RTD transport
Date: 6 Jan 93 00:16:50 GMT
Distribution: ca
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc.  Mountain View, CA

In article <RZDXwB1w165w@surfcty.com>, rlm@surfcty.com (Robert McMillin) writes:
> 
> LACTC deserves a thumb in the eye for its lousy choice of the Green Line
> route.  This light rail line goes from Norwalk to Manhattan Beach -- not
> LAX as you would reasonably expect.  To go from the MB terminus to LAX,
> one has to get on one of those derelict buses everyone here loves so
> much.  Talk about brainless maneuvers!

Putting in service to the airport was probably very expensive, as
it is here in San Francisco.  Transferring to an airport shuttle
bus doesn't seem all that onerous if it runs frequently enough.
Another problem with airport service is that it would probably
have to be the end of a line, or force a substantial deviation.
They probably wanted to get riders to/from Manhattan Beach too.
Newsgroups: ba.transportation
From: Rick_Donnelly@taligent.com (Rick Donnelly)
Subject: Re: Sources (was Re: Cars as "something bet
Organization: Taligent, Inc.
Distribution: ba
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1993 02:12:03 GMT

In article <1993Jan8.181030.27340@pbhya.PacBell.COM>, whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM
(Wilson Heydt) writes:
 
> Given that most busses in
> use are diesel--which has spectacularly *visible* particulate
> emissions (never mind that it promptly falls out of the air)...
             ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Where did you come up with this?  Particulate emissions are a very serious
pollutant.  They cause lung damage and much of the haze we see in our air.

What's your definition of "prompt"?  When the next rainstorm comes along?

Rick Donnelly                            My opinions, not Taligent's.
Rick_Donnelly@taligent.com

Newsgroups: ba.transportation
From: tom@microunity.com (Tom Laidig)
Subject: Re: CalTrain Article
Distribution: ba
Organization: MicroUnity Systems Engineering, Inc., Sunnyvale, CA
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 01:35:39 GMT

In article <jyc.726445709@Leland> jyc@leo.Stanford.EDU (Jon Corelis) writes:
>
>   I do recall though that some months ago I suggested on this newsgroup
>exactly that proposal:  that existing tracks extending from the current
>depot to the Embarcadero should be upgraded to create a downtown
>station.  The result of my posting was numerous followups saying
>basically, "Eeeeeeeee!!!  You can't do that!!!!  What are the *CARS*
>using those streets going to do?!?!?!?!?"

I've heard this proposal several times on this group, and I know of one
leetle flaw:  those `existing tracks' aren't there.  They ripped out a
couple blocks' worth along the Embarcadero about 2 years ago (and put a
parking lot there, naturally), and ripped up those along King st.
about half a year ago.  Too bad, IMHO.

-tom
--
	Tom Laidig				tom@microunity.com
	MicroUnity Systems Engineering		(408) 734-8100
From: jciccare@adobe.com (John Ciccarelli)
Newsgroups: ba.transportation
Subject: Re: Bicycles to commute within a work campus: Any successes ?
Summary: Workman Cycles, a vendor of "work" cycles
Date: 5 Jan 93 17:36:18 GMT
Reply-To: jciccare@adobe.com (John Ciccarelli)
Followup-To: ba.transportation
Distribution: ba
Organization: Adobe Systems, Mountain View, CA

In article <1993Jan4.173421.1@rogue.llnl.gov> teruya@rogue.llnl.gov writes:

>     LLNL had to write a specification a few years ago because several
>people were hurt when bike frames broke.  Because they are often used by women
>wearing skirts, the bikes have to be of the "girl's" type, but the bikes are
>also used by 250+ pound men.  The result was a design with reinforcement at
>critical points.  I don't know who manufactured them.

Workman Cycles, Ozone Park, NY, is a longtime vendor of industrial-
strength bikes and trikes for factories and bike rental operations.  
Among their customers are several pizza delivery operations in 
New York City.

-- 
John Ciccarelli           Adobe Systems,  1585 Charleston |    _~C      __C
jciccare@mv.us.adobe.com  Mountain View CA USA 94039-7900 |  ='\<,    ='\<,
uunet!adobe!jciccare      415/962-6677,  fax:415/903-0584 | (&)/(\)  (&)/(\)
=== "If you live within 7 miles of your job, why drive?" === BIKE TO WORK ==
From: lazzaro@boom.CS.Berkeley.EDU (John Lazzaro)
Newsgroups: ba.transportation
Subject: Re: CalTrain Article
Date: 11 Jan 1993 18:02:38 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: boom.cs.berkeley.edu

In article <1544@dosbears> dosbears!mikel@pyramid.com writes:
>In article <1inhhh$m7t@agate.berkeley.edu> lazzaro@boom.CS.Berkeley.EDU (John Lazzaro) writes:
>>
>>Hopefully, the conversion of the 15 Bus to a MUNI Metro line will
>>solve this problem [..]
>
>Details please.  I am aware that Metro is being extended from the
>Embaracdero station to "Potrero Hill" [...].  Are they
>planning on replacing the entire 15 as far as Bayshore?

I read about preliminary hearing to this effect in the Chronicle over
the summer, I believe. As I recall the article, the line of reasoning
by the neighborhoods affected was that they were being underserved
relative to all other neighborhoods in the southern side of the city,
which were served by either MUNI metro (J/K/L/M/N) or BART, and that
Third street should be next on the list. I thought the outcome of the
meeting was affirmitive, but I'm not aware of its funding status.

Xref: sparky ba.transportation:3093 ba.sports:703
From: charly@hal.COM (Charly Rhoades)
Newsgroups: ba.transportation,ba.sports
Subject: Re: Getting to the 'Stick
Summary: Walking from Bayshore CalTrain Station
Date: 9 Jan 93 02:47:46 GMT
Distribution: ba
Organization: HaL Computer Systems, Inc.
NNTP-Posting-Host: renoir.hal.com

In article <1993Jan7.214505.1866@ntmtv> adrian@ntmtv.UUCP (Adrian Brandt) writes:
>
>SamTrans often runs special buses to Candlestick.
>
>The Bayshore CalTrain station is the closest one to Candlestick.
>I'm told that Candlestick is about a 15-minute walk from there.

Has anyone actually walked from the Bayshore CalTrain station to
Candlestick??  I`d be interested in learning about the experiences
others have had doing this.

I've investigated the CalTrain-to-Bayshore, SamTrans bus to
Candlestick option before, but have nixed it for the big reason that
I don't want to show up a scant 30 minutes before game time!  And
that is when *all* SamTrans shuttle busses arrive at Candlestick,
no matter where you pick them up (you can catch them at other
locations besides the Bayshore CalTrain station).


This is another BIG reason why the baseball experience is so much
more enjoyable at Oakland-Alameda Coliseum than at Candlestick.
Sure the weather is a little windier and colder, but BART goes
*right to* OAC, in *ten minute intervals* (or thereabouts) long
before and after games.  The BART folks even have special ticket
tables set up at stations to handle the extra demand for the
roundtrip fares.

I like to go to the game an hour or more before the first pitch.
While others may not want to go that early, if public transportation
there was simply *a little more convenient*, it would help make a
Giants game more attractive to all the fans.


PS:  I'm mostly interested in walking to Candlestick *before* the
game.  Since I think I'd be content to *leave* at about the same
time as most other people, and at the time I think the shuttle
busses leave.  (Although I have heard some claim that getting to
the busses after a game can be difficult, and that there is a
narrow window in which you must catch them, or be stranded!  Any
comments on this as well??)  I don't think I'd be walking from
Candlestick to the Bayshore CalTrain station at 11:00 PM...not
willingly at least.
-- 
   Charly Rhoades               
                                   This message provided for
   HaL Computer Systems           informational purposes only
   charly@hal.com            
Newsgroups: ba.transportation
From: jyc@leo.Stanford.EDU (Jon Corelis)
Subject: Re: CalTrain Article
Organization: DSO, Stanford University
Distribution: ba
Date:  7 Jan 93 22:28:29 GMT

adrian@ntmtv.UUCP (Adrian Brandt) writes:

>Another interesting fact regarding the downtown SF extension issue is
>that at one time CalTrain was so close to running downtown that notices
>were put out on trains announcing service to the Ferry Building.  In
>fact, the official CalTrain schedule at that time (early eighties, I
>believe) was printed up showing the Ferry Building station stop!  This
>service was to run on surface streets along moderately upgraded
>existing track that extended beyond the 4th and Townsend St. station
>along King St. to the Embarcadero.

   That's interesting -- I don't remember those plans, probably because
I didn't use the train that often at that period.

   I do recall though that some months ago I suggested on this newsgroup
exactly that proposal:  that existing tracks extending from the current
depot to the Embarcadero should be upgraded to create a downtown
station.  The result of my posting was numerous followups saying
basically, "Eeeeeeeee!!!  You can't do that!!!!  What are the *CARS*
using those streets going to do?!?!?!?!?"
From: lip@s1.gov (Loren I. Petrich)
Newsgroups: ba.transportation
Subject: WHAT is so HORRIBLE about San Bruno? (was Re: CalTrain Article)
Date: 9 Jan 93 02:35:47 GMT
Distribution: ba
Organization: LLNL

In article <jyc.726525449@Leland> jyc@leo.Stanford.EDU (Jon Corelis) writes:

[Other objections to moving CalTrain's northern end from SF to San
Bruno deleted...]

>   And I'll add a fourth personal reason.  In all my years living in the
>Bay Area I've never once set foot in San Bruno, and I see no reason why
>I should be required to start doing such a thing at this time of life. 

	Now WHAT is so HORRIBLE about San Bruno?

	The planned BART/CalTrain station will be a next-door
operation, something like the Richmond BART/Amtrak station. One will
not have to walk through downtown San Bruno. So what are you so
worried about?
-- 
/Loren Petrich, the Master Blaster
/lip@s1.gov