HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Dancing; post-period sources...
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 19:02:52

 DZ> The best we can do with Strip the Willow is trace it to the eighteenth
 DZ> century.  But, one might say, it has an older feel?
 RW>Somehow, Strip the Willow doesn't 'feel' early enough to me...  It feels
 RW>later than Fandango...
 DZ> It doesn't feel early enough to me either(though this judgment may be
 DZ> biased because I know too much about its provenance).  So what does
 DZ> this tell us?  Either it tells us that 'feel' is subjective, and hence
 DZ> not a useful basis for judging, or that in the hands of someone with
 DZ> enough experience it's a useful starting point -- but that it has to
 DZ> be backed up with evidence.  Either way, it's not enough.

 Lord Dani - thank you for coming in and clarifying some points.  I've been  dancing and teaching dance for about 15 years in the Society.  Sometimes I  can point exactly  to something in a dance and say, "Ah!  15th century! or  Ack!  19th!" and sometimes there's just something that can't quite be  expressed in words.  I think I do have the experience to back this up (my old  teacher was Master Sion Andreas, we still keep in touch) and am acquiring the  scholarly backing to add to my practical knowledge as




 I go.  It's hard to  explain to some of our dancers sometimes.  
 
 DZ> Yet we turn out dancers who believe that "Strip the Willow", "Hole in the  DZ> Wall", and "Black Nag" typify "period dancing".  Why should they  DZ> doubt that Korobushka has an authentic feel?
 
 *SIGH*  Yes -- frustrating, isn't it?  So we try to educate them and they  still want to do the non-period ones.  I'm trying to lure my slowly into  Italian Ren (it's fun!  it's easy!  they don't believe me!) but it isn't  always easy.

 ---- Keep up the good work -- I enjoy your Letter of Dance articles.

-- Vashti


 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
From: cozzlab@garnet.berkeley.edu ()
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Re:One Oh
Date: 9 Oct 1992 19:38:05 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: garnet.berkeley.edu

In article <92283.142653JOKHC@CUNYVM.BITNET> <JOKHC@CUNYVM.BITNET> writes:
>In article <1b4e75INN1og@agate.berkeley.edu>, cozzlab@garnet.berkeley.edu ()
>says:
>>
>>Waitaminnit.  Reeve?  What's a Reeve?  How do you say "Reeve" in
>>Western?
>>
>Maybe it's whatever your version of the eastern Chatelane is?

In the West a Chatelaine meets newcomers with explanations and useful
handouts.  What does an Eastern one do?  


Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin                               Dorothy J. Heydt
Mists/Mists/West                                              Albany CA
Argent, a cross forme'e sable

Disclaimer: This is the Cozzarelli Lab's account, not mine--but I don't
think anybody else ever reads it.
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: asparrow@mcs213f.cs.umr.edu (Angelia Sparrow)
Subject: Re: Decentralization and Minors
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1992 16:22:15 GMT
Organization: University of Missouri - Rolla

Cariadoc makes a point about increasing paperwork
in the last 20 years and how a big group is
as juicier target than many little ones.

Good people if you think the SCA is
paranoid, you should see a Girl Scout Leader's
paperwork some time.  When you combine
the two....

I had five signed sheets of paper on each girl
that attended our event (our shire sponsored a local troop).
Minors waivers, Minors medical waivers, permission
slips, health record and transportation slips.

There wasn't this much paper even ten years ago.

AS for reports: My kingdom level superiors have
told me that they are vital to keeping our 
non-profit educational classification.        

Just my 2 cents.

Aethelynda, MoA/S who has writer's cramp from her forms.
From: coppinge8817@iscsvax.uni.edu
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Device Submission?
Date: 14 Oct 92 11:44:12 GMT
Article-I.D.: iscsvax.1992Oct14.164412.7650
Organization: University of Northern Iowa

Many greetings to you lords and ladies,
        In recent days Lord Ceidrich Lewellyn, our shire herald has been
pressing for the members of our shire to submit arms.  A reasonable request, I
suppose, but I thought I might ask the people here what they think of my idea
before I rush in and get it rejected.

        a field azure; two aur wolves combatant surrounding an orb argent
crested by three estoiles argent.  This all cresting an argent cracked mug.

        So, what do you think?  please e-mail me and tell me if it might pass.

                        Merfyn ap Donekyn
                    mka Jason R-G Coppinger
From: Ruth.Woodring@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Ruth Woodring)
Sender: FredGate@ocitor.fidonet
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Medieval Art: Dance
Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1992 18:42:38

 JdCMMW> Re: "Official" date cutoff
 JdCMMW> Re: pre-1400 arts

 JdCMMW> Boris asks:
>From the perspective of the arts, would a strictly Medieval period be
>viable?  What would the SCA be like if all pre-1400 arts + sciences were
>banned? I suspect that we would be culturally much poorer because of it.

Agreed.  No Sonnets?  No Litera Bastarda Calligraphy?  No Campion or Thomas Morley?  No fun!


 JdCMMW> For dance:
 >  - How much of common-practice in the SCA is pre/post 1400?
 JdCMMW> Almost all of it is post-1400.  The only dance in currency in the
 JdCMMW> Society that has any claim to being pre-1400 is the Saltarello that
 JdCMMW> Jeff Singman (whatever his current persona name is) composed, and
 JdCMMW> even that is shaky in its documentation...

 Thanks for defending this point -- it would be lovely if suddenly we could  find documentation for the dances and the music played for them fromthe  Chivalric era, but events would be far duller without dance and music, even  if it all is from the 1400--s to 1750s.  I include this late date to catch  Hole in the  Wall of course, the most popular dance that has the same form  through out the Society.  Heck I don't think it would be worth sticking  around if we went to a pre-1400s group!  I think the 30 + d




ancers in my local  group would agree, and only a small portion of them are late-period personas.

 -- Vashti of the flaming Tresses

 
 

 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
From: salley@niktow.canisius.edu (David Salley)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Baronial Qualifications
Date: 14 Oct 92 16:59:42 GMT
Organization: Canisius College, Buffalo NY. 14208

Vashti of the Flaming Tresses
>  I would add:
>  1.  Belongs to the Barony's Service Order.  Seems logical -- unless they've
>  been willing to work for and with the group in the past, how can they be 
>  good at leading it?

1.) "They've been willing to work for and with the group in the past".  Fine.
Has the "proper" set of danglys? NO! Our baronial service order is akin to a
_(Wo)/Man of the Year - Lifetime Achievement_ award.  Prior to the last couple
of years, it has been given out to _ONE_ person annually.  It's only been 
recently that the order has realized they have a *HELL* of a long backlog, and
have started giving out the award twice a year and to a couple of people at a
time so that people receive acknowledgement for their services before they
kick the bucket.  Technically, the service award ranks below even AoAs, but its
the _RARE_ member that doesn't have the Kingdom or Principality service award 
already, and I can't think of a single instance of where the receipient hasn't 
been armigerous for a least a year.  So, a willingness to work with others, Yes.
Dangly collection, NO!
                                                       - Dagonell

SCA Persona : Lord Dagonell Collingwood of Emerald Lake, CSC, CK, CTr
Habitat	    : East Kingdom, AEthelmearc Principality, Rhydderich Hael Barony
Disclaimer  : A society that needs disclaimers has too many lawyers.
Internet    : salley@niktow.cs.canisius.edu
USnail-net  : David P. Salley, 136 Shepard Street, Buffalo, New York 14212-2029
Pirates of the Carribean Event - Dec 12 - Rhydderich Hael - Write for details.
From: Beth.Appleton@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Beth Appleton)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Dance -- reels, etc.
Date: 16 Oct 92 22:48:50 GMT


 JdCMMW> In another message (which I've only seen 
 JdCMMW> Vashti's reply to -- the Fido/
 JdCMMW> Internet gateway sometimes screws up the order 
 JdCMMW> of messages) Gwenllian
 JdCMMW> asks about Scottish reels, particularly Strip 
 <<sigh>> Actually, the original message was addressed to *you*.  
 Vashti's local, so I guess that the clog (at our end) that kept us 
 from getting 4 or 5 days worth of messages also ate the last set 
 of messages we sent out before it went down.  You've addressed the 
 basic question, though.
....
 JdCMMW> (I'll certainly admit that this is a rather 
 JdCMMW> subjective distinction,
 JdCMMW> and subject to some grey areas -- for instance, Trenchmore, which
 JdCMMW> is somewhat similar to Strip the Willow, and which *may* date back
 JdCMMW> to period in that form, breaks the rule. But it at least provides
 JdCMMW> *some* criteria for deciding what I teach.)
 Trenchmore?  I'm not that familiar with that one.  I assume that it is 
 also a Scottish Reel?  I don't know that much about them.  After all, 
 what some folks teach around here are the ones for single couples, all 
 danced in varsouvienne (sp), like Scotland the Brave <gack>.
....
 JdCMMW> This doesn't mean that the Scots were 
 JdCMMW> necessarily doing the same thing
 JdCMMW> as the English. However, most countries were 
 JdCMMW> mostly doing the same dances,
 JdCMMW> often somewhat mutated, through most of the 
 JdCMMW> 15th and 16th centuries...
 Does this apply to the "folk" as well as the "court"?  What we've got 
 for folk dances nowadays seems to have rather strong nationalist 
 differences.  OTOH, so far as I know, we've got zilch documentation 
 for gen-u-wine folk dance in period.
     I shall go forth and re-find my source for that mention of reels. 
 As I recall, it was specifically about dances, but it was a tertiary 
 source, so I need to re-read it to be sure just *what* it said. 
    Thanks for the info!  I suspect that if I wrote anything, it'd be 
 more along the lines of a book review......
     Gwenllian Cwmystwyth
  ps, oh, and who's to say that the English didn't pick up the long-
 ways-changing set from the Scots?  (yeah, I know -- no direct evidence)

 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
From: Ruth.Woodring@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Ruth Woodring)
Sender: FredGate@ocitor.fidonet
From: mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman)
Subject: Re: Multi-Multi-Dukes
Date: Fri, 09 Oct 92 19:23:21 GMT
Organization: IBM T. J. Watson Research

In East history, four men have reigned three times, and no one more than
three: Akbar ibn Murad al-ben Muhammed ibn Hakim, Siegfried von Halstern,
Morgunn Sheridan, and Randal of the Dark.  Two women have reigned three
times: Khadijah of House Hakim and Wanda von Halstern.  Siegfriend is
widely favored as the most likely to be the first four-time Eastern ruler.

===========================================================================
Arval Benicoeur                                       mittle@watson.ibm.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Subject: Hurricane Iniki news from Kauai
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 17:41:20 GMT

The word on conditions among SCA folk on Kauai has finally tricked
out...

There are 5 or 6 SCA folk on the island.  They were living in three
different houses.  Two of those houses are no longer there and the
third is damaged, but at least marginally habitable--and that's where
they are now living.

All of them are out of work.  They're being fed by the US Army.

Caid is working on setting up a non-profit fund to help them after the
style of the fund set up by Trimaris after *their* hurricane.  The
fund will be non-profit in the snese that money donated will not be
further taxed, but it is *not* deductible by the donor.

	--Hal

        Hal Ravn, Province of the Mists, West Kingdom
        Wilson H. Heydt, Jr.,  Albany, CA 94706,  510/524-8321 (home)
-- 
Hal Heydt                    |    "Boycott Time-Warner"
Analyst, Pacific*Bell        |         --J. Danforth Quayle
510-823-5447                 |    "... kill all the lawyers."
whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM    |         --William Shakespeare
From: zebee@sirius.ucs.adelaide.edu.au (Zebee Johnstone)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Lochac Mailing List
Date: 13 Oct 92 22:36:55 GMT
Organization: The University of Adelaide
NNTP-Posting-Host: sirius.itd.adelaide.edu.au

I suspect most folks who would be interested already know about it, but...

There is now a Lochac Mailing List for those who wish to discuss
things in our fair Principlaity.
 
Send mail to sca-lochac@DIALix.oz.au and ask to be added to the list.

We are hoping to use this list as a cheap and quick way of disseminating
information across a  group that spans several thousand miles and phone
costs are huge..


Selfran

-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------
     Zebee Johnstone  DoD #605   | You don't own an Italian motorcycle 
     Adelaide City Council       |  - you merely have the privilege 
    zebee@itd.adelaide.edu.au    |    of paying its bills....
From: boris@sys6626.bison.mb.ca (boris)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: FRP negative stereotypes
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 92 06:05:23 CST
Organization: System 6626 BBS, Winnipeg Manitoba Canada

vader@meryl.csd.uu.se ("]ke Eldberg") writes:

> Greetings from William de Corbie!
> 
> I agree that negative stereotyping is a bad thing that has
> happened to both role-players and SF fans in the SCA. However,
> I would also like to point out that FRP-ers can sometimes be
> very boring.
 WOW!  In the same paragraph he condems and then partakes of the very 
activity he condemned!  My hat's off to him. Gosh. Golly.

> 
> We have a number of young males (14-19 years) here who have
> come into the SCA from role-playing. These guys seem to live
> in a separate universe; they more or less automatically convert
> everything they see or hear into D&D terms. "Sir Morgan is a
> 14th level fighter" is their way of saying that someone fights
> well. I could quote countless examples of the same type of
> remarks about clerics and wizards, not to mention spells.
> The non-medieval references are jarring to non-FRP people.
> 
 My, my, my.  SO much for the validity of his condemnation. 
  ( I should like to point out that what he describes is true of any 
group of enthusiasts.  Glider pilots to mystery buffs to the SCA.)
 
> They also have a tendency to see the SCA as a good forum for
> live role-playing. At Visby this summer, many people were 
> disturbed by elves and magic-users running around in the SCA
> camp with boffer swords and other gaming OOP paraphernalia.
> 
> At events, you will see the gamers sitting/standing by themselves,
> talking games and nothing else. It seems that they get so involved
> with their gaming that they are unable to converse about other
> things. What it all boils down to is that these guys are good in
> most respects; they don't drink, scream or act offensively in any
> way, but they irritate people because they appear to be playing a
> different game than the rest of us.
> 
No. You should have said that they irritate you personally. YOU appear to 
have a problem with them. I never have, nor am likely to. I also am one.
Fighters must also irritate you. As should heralds and weavers and 
carpenters and politicians. Each of them talk thier own 'game' up and 
play it all the time.  Tough luck. that's what life amoungst people is 
like. If you can't handle something as trivial as a group of people 
having a little bit of fun with their hobbies in plain view then you'd 
better find a hermit's cave.

> On the other hand, much the same can be said about the computer
> freaks, and the budo types... To summarize, I dislike negative
> stereotyping, but there is usually a fragment of truth behind
> negative stereotypes.
> 
Then DON"T DO IT !!!!!!
  There is rarely any truth in a stereotype.  Myth, misinformation, 
rumour, urban ledgends, fantasies and outright stupidity and lack of 
knowledge make up and perpetuate most stereotypes.  It's a form of 
bigotry.  If you dislike it then don't engage in it.

> William de Corbie
> 
> /FRP-gamer since 1975
boris
FRP-gamer for just as long. 

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: grimmund@edsi.plexus.COM (Grimmund Blackwing)
Subject: Re: Mistakes & Rumors
Organization: Enterprise Data Systems Incorporated, Appleton WI
Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1992 20:32:48 GMT



Good gentles all,

I believe that the 20-volume work being referenced was the new 
British armorial, the Papworth.  Volume 1 has just been published, 
and someone noted that the series was not likely to be completed 
any time soon, as it was projected to run some 20 volumes.
	Mind, I usually read and delete everything from the SCAHRLDS 
list.  It's interesting, but I just *don't* have the room to back 
it all up here at home.  However, I think this might be the source 
of some of the confusion.
	Then again, I could be wrong, too.  =}

Grimmund Blackwing, 
Queen's Own Shire of Windhaven, Northshield, Middle Kingdom
From: badger@wixer.cactus.org (Badger)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: What is a Baron (territorial)
Date: 12 Oct 92 15:39:11 GMT
Article-I.D.: wixer.1992Oct12.153911.23934
Organization: Real/Time Communications

In article <18039@ucdavis.ucdavis.edu> helm@jade.ucdavis.edu writes:
> [Don't ask how I broke my foot - it's embarrassing...]
>
>Twcs the Gimp
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>Catie Helm, internet: helm@geology.ucdavis
>Stable Isotope Lab, Geology Dept.
>University of California, Davis

	So, Twcs...  er... How'd you break your foot? :)

<Sorry, but with a setup like that, how could I resist? :) >


-- 
| Kenneth W. Scott        | Lord Gunter von Wissenberg  | Azure, a badger's   |
| Badger                  | Collegium Turris Animarum   | head erased Or      | 
| (Meles meles)           | In the Barony of Bryn Gwlad | masked sable, within|
| badger@wixer.cactus.org | In the Kingdom of Ansteorra | an orle Or. (I hope)|
From: haslock@rust.zso.dec.com (Nigel Haslock)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Cardweaving
Date: 14 Oct 92 18:24:56 GMT
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation - DECwest Engineering


DA> A thought occurs.  Has anybody tried this with cards other than square?
DA> Maybe even ones with an odd number of sides?

Briefly, yes and yes.

Not so briefly, Collingwood's book has examples of 2, 3, 4 and 6 hole cards.
He also has examples of 4 hole cards with only 2 or 3 holes carrying threads.

Join the card weavers list for more information.

	Fiacha
	Aquaterra, AnTir
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: jtthorp@hubcap.clemson.edu (J. T. Thorpe)
Subject: Re: Pickup Trucks (was Re: regalia trailer)
Organization: Clemson University, Clemson SC
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 16:19:32 GMT

In article <1558@niktow.canisius.edu> salley@niktow.canisius.edu (David Salley) writes:
>Vashti of the Flaming Tresses writes:
>> Ansteorran monarchs often have pickup trucks, or friends in their 
>> entourage with pickup trucks, 
>
>I've noticed that here in the East.  At a demo at a school, I made the comment
>that you could tell which vehicles in the parking lot belonged to fighters, 
>all the pickups and vans.  Lord Madog, who was in Atlantia while in the Army, 
>said that in Atlantia, you could skip the phrase 'and vans'.  If you don't 
>have a pickup, you ain't a _real_ fighter.  How is it in the other 10 kingdoms?

What category does a `Suburban' fall into?  :) :)  So far, no fighter has
ridden in mine.... :)

--Elwood Wayward
-- 
JT Thorpe	 __________________         ===+==___()__o_][ c
 Clemson 	   |[][][] |[]| |   _/-----| |=|=|   |    |  ]}  
University	 [_|_______|__|_|_]|_______|=|___|-----------___ 
 CS Dept           oVo        oVo  oVo   oVo   (o) (o) (o)  oo \\
Organization: Doctoral student, Industrial Administration, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1992 04:47:49 -0400 
From: David Schroeder <ds4p+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Why have the SCA, Inc.?

Good gentles,

Solveig writes --

12-Oct-92 Re: Why have the SCA, Inc.? by Barbara Nostrand@lynx.da 

>You do not need to spend $5000 to upgrade somebody's computer to do 
>mailing lablels.  In fact it would probably cost $300 ($200 for a
>disk drive and $100 for software) unless you want to spend say another
>$400 for an ink-jet printer.  That brings us up to say $700.  You can
>buy the computer with the disk drive for say $1200 to $1700 ... So you
>can easily do it for say $1700 to $2200.  That is rather less than the
>$5000 add on that was talked about.  Basically, computer power that
>was incredibly expensive in days of yore is now incredibly cheap.

Not disagreeing, exactly, my original statement was:

>                                 Even TI's 20,000+ record mailing
>list could be kept on a less than $5,000 computer system, given a
>Mac or PC with a large hard disk, a heavy duty printer, software,
>and a tape-backup device.

I was pricing a 386 or 486 PC with a 100Mb+ hard disk for $1200-1500,
software in the $500 range, a Bernoulli-box or tape backup for another
$500 or so, plus $2000 for a HEAVY DUTY fast line printer to print the
mailing labels in a reasonable amount of time, plus supplies like tapes
or cartridges for backups.  I didn't add in the _annual_ cost elements 
like ribbons and paper and service contracts (we _do_ want the printer
fixed in a hurry _when_ it breaks down while trying to meet a tight
deadline, don't we... ?).  I'm doing this pricing from memory (Mac
pricing I know backwards and forwards, PC's are another matter), 
but I'd bet you can't buy a really rugged line printer for much
less than $2000 -- please tell me if I'm wrong.

Even so, the capital cost of a system to do TI's mailing list
would come to less than a dime per year per subscriber if we
paid for it over three years.

Of course, a system to manage mailing labels for a kingdom newsletter,
even for the big kingdoms, would be less (though not _that_ much less
-- the big savings would be from getting a cheaper printer).

TI could get by spending even less money if they could send a Bernoulli
cartridge to the printer/mailer who would generate the labels on their
even bigger and faster line printer...

Thanks for putting up with this digression, folks...

Technically yours -- Bertram

+-----------------------------------------------------------------------+
Bertram of Bearington                                      Dave Schroeder
Debatable Lands/AEthelmearc/East               Carnegie Mellon University
INTERNET: ds4p@andrew.cmu.edu                         412/731-3230 (Home)
+------------------------ PREME * Press On * PREME ---------------------+
      "He indulged in every excess, yes in each licentious whim..."
From: salley@niktow.canisius.edu (David Salley)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: SCAidians who FRP games (part II)
Date: 10 Oct 92 12:10:51 GMT
Organization: Canisius College, Buffalo NY. 14208

Sean MacKay writes:
> Like the FRP gamers, SF Fans make up a large (and usually
> silent) fraction of the SCA.  
>      Not to force anybody out of the "FRP game" closet, but I first met Hal
> Ravin and Hillary of Serendip at a game con; cirica AS XII.  Hal was running
> the registration counter, and Hillary was "running" the SCA demo.  
> Gaming convention demos are still very popular (at least here in the West), 

Also, here in the East. _Contradiction_ (SF con) and _UBCon_ (Gaming con at
University of Buffalo) are both RUN by the local SCA.  We don't advertise it
as such, except to say "armored combat & medieval dances demos by the SCA"
but the entire staff of both cons are members.
                                                       - Dagonell

SCA Persona : Lord Dagonell Collingwood of Emerald Lake, CSC, CK, CTr
Habitat	    : East Kingdom, AEthelmearc Principality, Rhydderich Hael Barony
Disclaimer  : A society that needs disclaimers has too many lawyers.
Internet    : salley@niktow.cs.canisius.edu
USnail-net  : David P. Salley, 136 Shepard Street, Buffalo, New York 14212-2029
A bad day in the list still beats a good day in the office.  -- Dagonell