HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: bill@twwells.com (T. William Wells)
Newsgroups: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery,alt.sexual.abuse.recovery.d
Subject: Damned if you do, damned if you don't (Re: WOMEN ABUSES!!!)
Date: 4 Jan 93 00:32:12 GMT
Followup-To: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery.d
Organization: None, Mt. Laurel, NJ

In article <12542@jjmhome.UUCP> lmann@jjmhome.UUCP (Laurie Mann) writes:
: Cloister, nothing.  Bill is just doing his usual "terrific" job at
: managing an anonymous posting service.
:
: Thanks for letting the abusers through again, Bill.

You're welcome. This is an open forum and it isn't my job to
decide what is and isn't abuse for anyone but myself. My job is
to run this message service, to keep the mail and posts flowing,
and to respond as necessary to circumstances according to my
rules, which don't include deciding whether Mr. Freud is or is
not an abuser, whatever that is.

If you have a complaint, make it and tell me what action you'd
like me to take and why. I'll consider it and then decide what to
do, if anything.

Finally, I will repeat your signature quoate, Ms. Mann, because
Martin Niemoeller has already said what I would have personally
said but much more eloquently:

      In Germany they first came for the Communists, and I didn't speak
      because I wasn't a Communist.  Then they came for the Jews, and I
      didn't speak because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for the trade
      unionists, and I didn't speak because I wasn't a trade unionist..
    Then they came for me---and by that time no one was left to speak up.

Think about it.

Followups have been redirected to alt.sexual.abuse.recovery.d.

BTW, I've just added a new address, anon-asard@twwells.com, which
can be used to post anonymously to alt.sexual.abuse.recovery.d.

---
Bill                            { rutgers | decwrl | telesci }!twwells!bill
bill@twwells.com
From: erc@unislc.uucp (Ed Carp)
Subject: Re: of Canada and Catholics
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Organization: Unisys Corporation SLC
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1993 09:07:51 GMT

Richard M. Romanowski (rmr@acsu.buffalo.edu) wrote:

: 	This raises an important issue about the children of rapists.
: I literally state that rapists are subhuman ... thus their children are at
: best half-human.  And yet I would not claim that I am human, so perhaps
: I ought not question their right to live.  But it certainly is a good 
: argument for aborting the fetuses conceived by rapists.  Which Catholics
: don't like.
: 
: (:
: E-Shrugs.
: 
: I *know* that I am a twisted sicko.  But are my arguments valid? 

Nope.  Your logical fallacy is that you assume that the children are somehow
responsible for their parent's crimes, sins, whatever.  To the seventh
generation, perhaps?  I contend that a child has his/her own life, and own
value, irrespective of their biological parents.

Rapists may be emotionally and psychologically subhuman, but that argument
can't be extended to their physical makeup, nor to their genetic material.
On the other hand, there are those who might contend that rapists exercise
power that others fear to.  We must punish rapists and child molesters
because they dare exercise the freedom we deny ourselves, but wish we
could exercise (but don't because of guilt or fear).

I don't agree with the above, but there are philosophers who would.  And some
of them are quite famous.  Perhaps that's what's wrong with our society - we
listen to words and allow them to sway us instead of listening to our own
hearts.
-- 
Ed Carp			erc@apple.com, erc@saturn.upl.com	801/538-0177
1935 will go down in history.  For the first time, a civilized nation has
full gun registration.  Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient,
and the world will follow our lead into the future.  --Adolf Hitler
From: anon-1266@twwells.com
Newsgroups: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
Subject: just a note
Date: 31 Dec 92 05:05:15 GMT
Organization: Anonymous Posting Service at twwells.com




hello everyone, i just wanted say a little something about
telling people about the abuse.  i still don't always always
believe myself so maybe it is when i tell others i don't come
across strong enough.  well anyways i have tried to tell other 
people, friends, and have spoken in general about the subject of
abuse to others and what i get are blank stares.  most just drop
the subject or try to get me to.  i have had people, "friends", 
ignore me after i have mentioned it and still others just say 
"well, it happened a long time ago-- can't you
>just forget it" 

actually this is also what my parents say because they don't 
want to be found out.  they keep telling me to just let go of the
past--it is over and done with-and it is no reason to continue
seeing a shrink.  they are older and very much set in their ideas.

i just want to say you really have to watch who you trust-be wary
 my father is a doctor the kind of upstanding, well-known and
well liked kind of person

i guess my point from the beginning was that i feel like i can't say
much to anyone about any of the turmoil in my life or its reasons
because i will be thrown to the side and looked down upon.  also,
i don't feel like i can make real friends because i have such a hard 
time talking about myself without bringing up the difficult things.
if i avoid talking about myself then the person doesn't know me
and we aren't friends.
is that messed up thinking  i can't tell anymore?
thanks for listening.
S
 



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Newsgroups: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
From: jal41820@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Smiley)
Subject: Need help in helping a friend
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1992 07:02:31 GMT


This is my first time posting to this group, so forgive me for protocol
errors, but from reading other articles, a Spoiler warning seems appropriate...

Over the summer, a friend of mine (she's been an on/off girlfriend since I met
her in August) was raped under some unusual circumstances. She was sort of
seeing the guy, he knew she wanted to wait until she was married before
having intercourse, they were both at a party, both had too much to drink.
He pressured her into getting undressed, and, although she didn't resist,
began intercourse. She had always blamed herself for "allowing" it to happen,
and never really thought much about it. My own thought is that she was sort
of blocking it out. It wasn't exactly the way she had wanted to her first time
to be.
	Anyway, from a CARE workshop, I found out that Illinois State law
states that a female can not give consent while intoxicated, no doubt to
protect those in my friend's situation. I asked the people hosting it about
the specifics of the law, and they verified that according to the law, she
was indeed raped. I talked to her about it, and since then she's gotten upset
a bit about it. Usually, it's when the guy stops up at where we work, or she
see's him at the bar she goes to. Since I'm the only one that knows about
what happened, she always talks to me. I have no problems talking to her about
it, and don't mind talking to her about it (as I've helped two other friends
through rape, including helping one of them get the guy in jail), but I know
that there's only so much that I can do. Every so often I mention the idea of
her going to see a counselor, but she doesn't want to. She'd rather not tell
anyone else about what happened. Instead, she wants to keep shutting the whole
thing in the back of her mind. Whenever she gets upset, it's no worse or
better than any other time.
	I guess my question is this; should I keep trying to get her to talk
to a counslor? Should I try and get her to talk about it more myself? Should
I just do what I'm doing now, that is, if she's upset, be there for her, but
don't bring it up otherwise? Anyone have any other suggestions?
	I'm really at a loss here. When I found out about my first friend's
rape, she seemed to be getting better talking to me about it. The other
ended up seeing a counslor. But this time, things don't seem to be getting
better or worse, and I'm not sure if that's good or not. Any help would be
appreciated. I'll be continuing to read this group if people wish to post
there comments here. Thanks...

-- 
        Josh Laff              #     #      
email to: smiley@uiuc.edu     _       _     Hello! I am a signature virus!  
      (217) 384-6249         |#\_____/#|    Join the fun and copy mo*#(*&^!>.
                              \#######/
From: anon-1159@twwells.com (Kristian)
Newsgroups: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
Subject: thanks to the computer literate/literati
Date: 21 Dec 92 21:11:11 GMT
Organization: Anonymous Posting Service at twwells.com
X-Email-Accepted: yes

Thanks to Ed & Fletcher for explaining some of the niceties of
APS and to Fletcher for the book recommendation.  Also to David
for explaining the relay system of USENET.  I appreciate the
help.

Maybe I can also offer something to those of you who are
apprehensive because your therapist is going to be away for
holidays at this time of year (mine is too).  One thing I have
sometimes felt useful if I have felt "stuck" is to enter into a
kind of dialogue with myself, asking questions I think my
therapist would use to help me get through an issue. ...
questions he would put to me to make me clarify and focus when I
am trying to be vague or avoid things, etc.  It has helped me
work out a lot of things on my own.  Sometimes when he has
returnedafter a hiatus like this when I have done some of this 
interior dialogue (using what I think would be his voice, his
approach), I check in with him just to make sure I have been on
the right track.  It's been quite useful for me.

I think that if you are looking for answers FROM your therapist
(and if he tends to GIVE you answers as opposed to helping you
find answers for yourself), what I have described may not work
for you.  In that case, I would just try to create a safe space
for me that gives me comfort to tide me over:  teddy bears are
great companions and they give unconditional love, listening and
understanding.  They are never happier than at home with their
person or travelling with them.

               
    Kristian 



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From: anon-1280@twwells.com (ReachingOut)
Newsgroups: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
Subject: Re: christmas
Date: 26 Dec 92 04:07:45 GMT
Organization: Anonymous Posting Service at twwells.com
X-Email-Accepted: yes

Thank you for putting into words much of what I hate about 
Christmas too. It's all so painful to even think about, but
I enjoyed reading it from you Crystal. You're not alone...
I HATEHATEHATEHATE Christmas too!

ReachingOut



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Newsgroups: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
From: anon-1337@twwells.com (Riptide)
Subject: ASAR and Holidays and Babbling
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 22:01:11 GMT
X-Email-Accepted: yes
Organization: Anonymous Posting Service at twwells.com


     Hi everyone.  It is now the eve of the eve of Christmas 
eve, so I have some wrapping up to do.  I use ASAR through
my computers at work, so I have to abandon you (and yes, it 
does feel like that).  I won't be able to respond to e-mail
either unless I manage to log in during the holidays.  So 
until January 4, this is the last you'll hear from Riptide.

     Holidays are really traumatic times, I realize this. 
Luckily I am 3000 miles away from my family and the worst I 
have to put up with is a phone call on Christmas from my
parents.  Right now I can tolerate talking to my mom, but 
when dad comes on I start having asthma attacks.  Of 
course, he uses that occasion to bug me about taking care of 
myself. (He is a general practitioner, I have four cats and I am
allergic to them. Result- he tells me to *never* let them
near me, etc. blah blah blah.  I haven't had a serious allergy
attack from the cats in a few months.  They are always triggered 
by something else.)  We are having friends over for a big dinner
on christmas eve, and all in all I am not streesed by the holidays.
So I guess I feel like I want to be here, to help someone
who might not be feeling so bad.

    Now before you jump on that (and I wonder why I assume you
will) I realise this stems from the belief that I am indispensible.
My parents think it about themselves, I learned fast.  It still
feels like I want to be here.  That in itself is nice for me.

    I want to welcome all the new people, and those who are coming
back.  I hope you find asar to be as helpful as I have.

    Take care all, and I'll be here again come January.

    Strength and Hugs

    Riptide



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From: ftlao@acad3.alaska.edu (OSSANDER LINDA A)
Subject: Re: some babbling **Possible spoiler**
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41.UAC
Organization: University of Alaska - Fairbanks
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1992 03:35:00 GMT

In article <Bzqrut.EH9@twwells.com>, anon-1487@twwells.com (chinadoll) writes...
>*****Possible Spoiler****
> 
>I am starting to read _The Courage to Heal_.  I don't know if I am strong
>enough to make it through all of this, but if I don't I won't make it.
>Is it worth it?  I have not started therapy yet, but I guess that is
>the logical next step.  I am so frustrated and I feel very alone with
>this issue.  I really don't want to face it.  I have to, but I don't
>want to.
> 
>-Chinadoll

Yes..Chinadoll,

It is very much worth it.  I know because I have come from thinking I was a
crazy person to being completely independent. 

I had lost my childhood from the time I was 5-16 or so. I never dared tell
anyone. I was brought up on guilt and shame and really did think I was crazy. 
I mean no one loses that much of their life..RIGHT!  

At age 33 I started having flasbacks and if it hadn't been for a womans shelter
here in Fairbanks I might have really lost it.  They allowed me to ccome in
twice a week for counseling for free.  They also hooked me up with supoport
groups to go to so I knew I wasn't alone in my sorrow and hurt and anger.

Here I am now 43 and I feel so much better.  I know I shall always have
memories that will be lost and that bothers me but I know that I can and will
be able to handle them if they come back.  None of them can be any worse than I
already know.  
I also able to take care of myself and look forward to the day when I can have
an honest healthy relationship. 

I feel free at last!

*HUGS* If you want them if not pass them on.

                       -Linda-
From: anon-1448@twwells.com
Newsgroups: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
Subject: looking for relationships
Date: 29 Dec 92 04:18:11 GMT
Organization: Anonymous Posting Service at twwells.com
X-Email-Accepted: yes

Hi, everyone
    I am writing because I'm a little bummed out.  That's right; not
suicidal, but very discouraged at the state of my love life.  You
know I met someone through the personal ads. For the first time in my
life, I met a man who seems to have the same values and beliefs that
I do and who I can talk to about deeply personal things, but it turns
out that he already started a relationship with someone else
recently.  I know I shouldn't feel jealous, or rejected, or bad about
myself... but this stuff really triggers such obssessive behavior on
my part.  Maybe it isn't obsessive, but I just feel like it is???
    We were able to talk a little about my feelings... we agreeed to
be friends and to continue our discussions about life, relationships,
etc.  But somehow I just feel cheated by life and the universe.  Now
I'm afraid to even continue trying to followup on the other people
who answer my ad, because I keep thinking that I won't find another
person who wants the same thing that I do.  I mean, I didn't mention
very much about the physical attributes of the person(s) I am looking
for; I said that I was interested in who the man is as a person..
So many of the replies I get don't address this issue, but this man's
reply did; it said some very serious things... I'm so disappointed I
don't know what to do.  and I don't know what to do with myself... I
feel like giving up on finding anybody because it's so much work and
noone seems to fit the bill.. 
Phoenix



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From: sasnla@shadow.unx.sas.com (Nancy Agnew)
Newsgroups: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
Subject: Re: Me
Date: 21 Dec 92 20:02:56 GMT
Organization: SAS Institute Inc.
Originator: sasnla@shadow.unx.sas.com


In article <1992Dec7.214332.26433@unislc.uucp>, erc@unislc.uucp (Ed Carp) writes:
>
>One of the most revealing thoughts I've had in the past few years is the idea
>that if I have a problem with someone, it's *my* problem - not theirs,
>regardless of how they act.  If I'm pissed off at X because they said or did
>something I didn't like, it's because I don't have *my* perceptions in the
>right place.  X is coming at me from the perspective of their own stuff, and
>I can empower myself by not allowing them to manipulate me by making me angry.
>
>Obviously, it doesn't work all the time for me, but I'm still learning - if I
>wasn't, I wouldn't be here. :)

Well, Ed, this is all well and good if it is a matter of someone
saying or doing something that doesn't infringe upon your rights --
simple disagreements over whose parking space it is, stuff like that.

I cannot and will not change my position about the fact that if the
something someone is doing is abusing me right at that moment, and 
I don't like it, it isn't because MY perceptions are the ones that
are out of joint.  A Zen teacher has said to a group I was in that
when we say "XYZ isn't RIGHT" it is because we as individuals don't
like it or don't want it.  THERE IS NO WAY THAT ABUSE IS SOMETHING
THAT COULD EVER BE RIGHT.  THE PERSON BEING ABUSED (especially if a
child) IS NOT THE ONE WHOSE PERCEPTIONS ARE IN THE WRONG PLACE.

I know that isn't what you said, Ed, but I wanted to say it because
I don't take it for granted that people know it.  I didn't know it.
Most of the time I agree with you about this, not that I can practice
it all the time.  I think there are exceptional circumstances that
indicate that the perception of the other person *is* wrong.  If you
can explain to me how a three year old is supposed to cope with being
sexually abused, maybe, just maybe, I'll rethink my position.  Same
goes for a 25 year old who has been raped despite repeated verbal
assertions that what is happening is not what he or she wants to be
happening.  This is not simply a case of the perceptions of the
individuals being at odds with each other in such a way that one is
feeling themselves to be an injured party.

Some of us grew up thinking we had to accommodate others because that
is what we were trained to do.  In that style of thinking it is quite
difficult to learn how to be responsible for one's choices because it
is almost impossible to recognize when things *are* choices.  Asking
myself if I am reacting to the situation or my perception of the 
situation is one way to remind myself of my choices.  Shoot, in some
cases it took me a couple of years to see that I was ignoring myself
entirely in order to accommodate them -- and you have to see it before
you can change it.

have a good holiday, all
NLA


-- 
Nancy Agnew                         sasnla@unx.sas.com
SAS Institute Inc,  SAS Campus Dr,  Cary NC 27513-2414
My company's opinions are not likely mine, and vice versa.
From: anon-1534@twwells.com (Suzanna)
Newsgroups: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
Subject: Re: Recurring nightmares
Date: 4 Jan 93 04:18:16 GMT
Organization: Anonymous Posting Service at twwells.com
X-Email-Accepted: yes


     >How can I stop myself having recurring nightmares?
  
     I don't know any permanent way except getting completely rid of
     the fears that cause them.  At least it is that way for me. 
  
I am unsure as to whether my nightmares are the result of fear; I have
lived alone for almost eight years, and have not been touched for over
nine. I feel safe from threat when I am at home. Or do you mean "fear"
as a memory which has not been 'laid to rest'? I'm sorry, I am not
good at understanding.

       As far as permanent removal of the nightmares, for me it meant
     facing the deep and awful terrors that cause them.
  
Again, I apoligize, I am not sure I know what you mean. I face the
terrors all the time, they are me, but I don't think this is what you
mean. 

       Well, if you are truly happy with what you do, then it doesn't
     matter what everyone else does.
    
You present me with a difficult problem; I do not think that happiness
is possible, for what is it? Always, I try for contentment, but I
cannot seem to find it in anything of what I do. So do I try to change
myself, to do things I have never dreamt of doing, or do I stay with a
safe existence which is so lonely?

     I do what feels good and safe to me and let it rest at that.
  
Again, a problem for me. I think it would be good for me to meet
people, but I do not feel comfortable doing so, and I have never been
good in such situations. I have few interests which promote
interaction, and mostly my life revolves around work and university.
What can I give people to make them interested in me? I have found
only one person to whom I can talk, and it is not possible for me to
see her more than on a very irregular basis. Yet I realise now that I
am lonely, and need to talk.

       Hope you find what makes _YOU_ feel the best.
 
Thank you very much; I hope so too, although I regret that my one
moment of contentment came just after trying to commit suicide. That
was a peace which I desire.
 
I am sorry for this post being longer than I wished; again, please
forgive any mistakes I have made.

Suzanna



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