From: sdodd@OES.ORST.EDU (Stephen M Dodd)
Subject: Re: Instructor/Agency Accountability
Organization: Oregon Extension Service, Oregon State University, Corvallis, Or.
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1992 06:42:51 GMT

In article <1992Jul24.204301.26456@hplabsz.hpl.hp.com> peterson@hpl.hp.com (Chris Peterson) writes:
>In article <1992Jul24.073857.5658@talon.ucs.orst.edu> sdodd@OES.ORST.EDU (Stephen M Dodd) writes:
>>
>>In article <1992Jul23.200721.22158@hplabsz.hpl.hp.com> peterson@hpl.hp.com (Chris Peterson) writes:
>>>
>>>In article <1992Jul23.172802.3942@talon.ucs.orst.edu> sdodd@OES.ORST.EDU (Stephen M Dodd) writes:
>>>>Hi,
>>>>
>>>>I'd like opinion from those of you on the net involved in training
>>>>students about agency accountability.
>>>>
>>>>In one of my classes last night I heard a story about a non-certified
>>>>diver teaching another to dive and then the second diver when to someone
>>>>"selling" certifications and worked his way up to instructor ... and
>>>>then turned around and "sold" the first guy an instructor rating.  Thus
>>>>ending up with two bogus instructors.
>>>
>>...
>>>...
>>>
>>>The agency must know about the problem before it can take any action.  
>>>A signed, written statement is usually required before an agency will start
>>>disciplinary action.  The statement is best if it comes from another
>>>instructor from the same agency...
>>
>>   And this is the true defacto answer to my original question regarding
>>   agency accountability.  You are telling me that it is my
>>   responsibility and that of my party and it's leadership to police
>>   this.  Yet we all dive under another agencies certification.
>>
>>   You see, it's hard to get involved, under an advesarial legal system,
>>   when you don't have authority.  Your suggestion implies that I
>>   should be personally prepared to act as a vigalante for the
>>   agencies. NOT! It is the responsibility of the agency to police those
>>   it certifies to instruct.
>
>I respectfully disagree about responsibility for "policing".
>
>If we (instructors & divers) don't "police ourselves", who will?  Rumblings 
>over the past few years suggest that state and federal government would love to
>take over (I find government intervention a horrifying thought)!  If we're
>always looking for someone else to make it better, it won't.
>
>For NAUI, the Instructors *are* the agency.  There is no higher authority.
>Each of us assumes the responsibility to continually improve ourselves and
>contribute to sport diving and education.  This includes policing ourselves.
>When disciplinary actions are taken, judgements are made by active Instructors,
>not "officals from agency HQ".
>

  And here lies the rub.  I have a lot of responsibility in my daily
  life.  I delegate the responsibility for diving agencies to them when
  I PAY them.  You speak of "we" as if everyone has the time to make a
  crusade out of cleaning up corrupted practices.  But if you add to the
  list of crusades every item in the universe it becomes unworkable.  It
  HAS to be delegated to those better prepared to do a good job of it.
  Indeed you may be an instructor, but how would you force
  accountability from an agency other than your own, on a boat upon
  which you are not a passenger?  The most you can do is shake your fist
  and curse under your breath.  Any efforts against them without proof
  can be prosecuted as harrasement on your part.  I for one haven't the
  money or energy ... my contribution to the agencies was my class
  fees.

  I feel and understand the idealism of your position but can you really
  DO anything about it yourself from that posture?  The agencies should
  take on this problem themselves.  Yet it seems that all
  representatives are handing it back to the students themselves.

  I can't dive to 1000 feet and I can't personnaly accept responsibility
  for holding the diving business accountable.  That position would be
  hopelessly nieve.  I can point out the apparent weakness ...


>If, as you say, the agency does nothing about known unethical practices, there
>is probably little that an individual can do.  You can avoid contact with these 
>instructors and the divers they certify.  Dive stores can refuse to honor
>those certifications.  For an individual, avoidance may be a good way of 
>prolonging life, and for a dive store, it may be a way of avoiding a lot of 
>nasty litigation.
>
>Almost anyone can start a certifying agency.  However most of these don't last
>long due to poor business practices (profit margins are really small). 
>Condoning poor or dangerous instructional practices can only hurry its demise.
>
>[sic] Hope for a single death, very soon, to provide the "meat" for a "feeding
>frenzy" for lawyers.
> 
>> ...
>>
>>   I bet a simple cross-check of what I've said here and the instructor
>>   numbers and those they've certified around here would reveal issues
>>   to consider in an agency self-evaluation.  I've taught school.  You
>>   can't teach without being formally evaluated by the students.
>>   Wouldn't that work to some degree to put pressue on instructors to be
>>   aware of their true responsibilities?  What about a mail in
>>   follow-up?
>
>NAUI does send a questionaire, with pre-paid return postage, to most students
>as certifications are registered.  The questions are designed to ensure that
>the certifying instructor followed NAUI standards.  It's not perfect, but it
>is visible.
>
     I have cards from both PADI and NAUI and have never heard a thing
     from either.  Now I am begining to realize that they have no real
     accountability mechanisims.

     Steve

>>-- 
>>- Stephen M. Dodd, System Analyst, Oregon Extension Service
>>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>sdodd@oes.orst.edu          Internet          Oregon State University
>>503-737-0699                                  Corvallis, OR 97331
>
>
>-- 
>Chris Peterson                                     Hewlett-Packard Laboratories
>                                                    Research Computing Services
>                                                              Palo Alto, CA USA 
>(415) 857-6432                                     peterson@peterson.hpl.hp.com


-- 
- Stephen M. Dodd, System Analyst, Oregon Extension Service
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
sdodd@oes.orst.edu          Internet          Oregon State University
503-737-0699                                  Corvallis, OR 97331