HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: arun@sun14.vlsi.uwaterloo.ca (Arun Achyuthan)
Subject: Re: News clip with an inappropriate heading
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1992 22:38:38 GMT

I also felt uneasy with the heading provided by Dinesh Aggarwal.
Though the m.n.s. article had news content, the heading was very
biased and the moderator should not have allowed that. 

Also, I don't feel anything wrong in allowing a special dress code.
The Sikhs in Canada fought a similar case in allowing turban
to be worn with the Royal Canadian Mounted Police uniform, and they won 
the court case.

In article <BxoAyy.766.1@cs.cmu.edu> pjn+@cs.cmu.edu (P J Narayanan) writes:
>In article <1992Nov13.163044.387@news2.cis.umn.edu> ganesh@mega.cs.umn.edu (M. Ganesh) writes:
>>	Netter may remember that some time back there was a demand by some
>>Muslim students that they be allowed to sing Koranic verses instead of the
>>national anthem in school. Karunakaran the CM, allowed this, (I think).
>>
>>I would like to hear about your opinions about this. Is this a case of 
>>individual freedom too? Please post.
>>ganesh.
>
>I don't remember this, but the Seventh Dat Adventist group wanted the
>right to remain silent when the national anthem is being sung, as their
>religion doesn't believe in praising any entity other than God. They
>were granted that right by the courts (I think it went to the Supreme
>Court). They have been granted similar rights in the USA too.
>

A small correction - they were not Seventh Day adventists, if I remember.
They were Jehovah's Witnesses.

>I think the option of NOT to sing the national anthem should be a part of
>individual freedom. After all, we are not making anyone more "patriotic"
>by forcing them to sing the national anthem against their will.
>

I agree with Narayanan. 

>I don't think Koranic verses (or verses from the Gita or Bible) should
>be substituted for the national anthem as they are different types of
>entities. If schools have religious functions, I think individual
>students should be able to opt out of it, or substitute it with the
>function of their chosen religion.

If Karunakaran allowed Qur'anic verses to be sung in place of
the National Anthem, he has not only played into the hands
of mischief makers (who act in the name of religion), but
he has acted against the secular principles as well.

>
>PJN
>
>-- 
>---
>Robotics Institute, CMU			pjn@cs.cmu.edu
>Pittsburgh, PA 15213
>---

Arun Achyuthan
Newsgroups: alt.culture.kerala
From: molly@uga.edu ()
Subject: Re: ***Chalachitra Lookam***
Organization: University of Georgia, Athens
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 13:28:29 GMT

In article <1eelvkINNkjt@girtab.usc.edu> rajeshkr@usc.edu (Rajesh Krishnan) writes:
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>	Cinema			Cast			Comments
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>  Kattukuthira            Tilakan,Vineet,Pappu           * * 
>                          Janardhanan,KPAC,Kaviyoor    
>                          Ponamma,Innocent
>
> DIR : P.G. Viswambaran
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Niligiri                 Mammooty,Mala,Soman,Pappu     * Total tamil movie
>                          Jayaram,Srividya              style.
>
> DIR : I.V.Sasi
> Padiyathu : Yesudas,Chitra,Sujatha
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Kuruppinte Diary          Balachandra Menon,Jayaram     * * * * Another 
>                          Parvathy, Kaviyoor Ponamma    Balachandra Menon 
>                          Oduvil UnniKrishnan, Mammu Koya     Entertainer
>                          Geetha,Thikkurissi,Monisha
>
>Katha, Thirakatha, Sombhashanam, Samvidhanam : Balachandra Menon
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Kiyhakkunarum Pakshi      Mohanlal, Ashokan,Innacent     * * * Good Songs
>                          Jagadish,Rekha,Murali,Shankar
>                          Sankaradi
>
>Padiayathu : yesudas, chitra. 
> DIR: Venu Nagavalli
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Varnam                     Jayaram, SureshGopi, Parvathi  *** Good film
>                           ranjini
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Rating on a scale of * to ***** where * is bad...
>
>Peace
>
>-rajesh
>




thanks!

MR
Organization: Chemistry, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: alt.culture.kerala
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1992 18:23:03 -0500 
From: Prathapan Sreedharan <ps4e+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: plagiarism 



Why is it that Malayalees have always been accused of plagiarism?  For
example, when Kumaranasan wrote

"Pranayaparavase subham ninakkunaruvathondorudhikkil nin priyan
 Gunavathi nedumohanidhra vittunaruka njan nin sakhi Madhavi"

he was accused of copying from

"Awake arise my dear love and fearless thou be
 For I have a home for thee in the Westerlies"

There was wide criticism that his "Chandalabhikshuki" was inspired by
Tagore's Chandalika.

More recently, Punathil Kunhabdulla was accused of copying, again from
Tagore, in his "Kanyavanangal".  My friend is of the opinion that
Punathil was copying from Leon Uris' "Haj"!!

We are quick to point out the Hollywood originals of movies such as
Aksharathettu, New Year, Thoovalsparsham, Prathyekam Shradhikkuka, Ee
Kaikalil, and the like.  But I never heard anybody claiming that the
Hollywood super hit "Ghost" is a straight lift from that obscure
Malayalam movie "Pappan Priyappetta Pappan".  Does this reflect a lack
of confidence or that mentality expressed in the by now famous dialogue
from "Chithram":"Sayippanmar Nakkikalakathilla"

Prathapan
From: vvallopp@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Vinod V Valloppillil)
Newsgroups: alt.culture.kerala
Subject: Re: Reply to plagiarism
Date: 22 Nov 92 20:32:54 GMT
Organization: University of Pennsylvania

In article <1eokj7INNsa7@gap.caltech.edu>  writes:
>	While we're on this, might as well point out this: Yesudas's song
>"Ninde Rajyam Varunnoo" (Excuse the horrible transliteration) had it's
>tune stolen from the American song "Battle Hymn of the Republic" which
>was written around the time of the American Civil War (or earlier?). I 
>guess there is no doubt here as to who stole what (unless you want to 
>violate causality). I am assuming that the song sung by Yesudas was 
>recent - it was quite popular in the mid 70's.
>

	Not only does it seem like a lot of malayalam songs borrow 
heavily from Western rifts, but so do sound tracks from a heck of a 
lot of movies.  Some are obviously the entire Western song converted
to use synthesized sounds that are more palatable for Malayalam ears
(a lot of Stevie Wonder songs fit this category) -- this, however,
can be covered by liscensing agreements although I instinctively find
this to be unlikely.  Even more often though, is the borrowing of 
key bars which are then incorporated into film songs or sound tracks.

	I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one who's noticed this.


------------------------------+----------------------------------------------
Vinod Valloppillil            |
Systems/MIS  5-yr dual degree |  Libertarians are pro-choice on everything!
SEAS / Wharton                |
vvallopp@eniac.seas.upenn.edu |  Libertarian party info: (800) 272-1776
------------------------------+----------------------------------------------

Beware of watermelons:  Green on the outside, Red on the inside!
From: mece21x@menudo.uh.edu ( Michael)
Newsgroups: alt.culture.kerala
Subject: Test
Date: 20 Nov 1992 16:56:27 -0600
Organization: University of Houston
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: menudo.uh.edu


Just checking whether this new account is ok or not. Thanks

Michael
From: balraj@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu
Newsgroups: alt.culture.kerala
Subject: Some Mallu Jokes - "Ingiriyus" version
Date: 20 Nov 92 21:21:13 CST
Organization: University of Kansas Academic Computing Services

Mallu Jokes


I don't know if you have heard these Malayali jokes, but here they are!

1)  What is an extraordinary Malayali called?
    Pheno"MENON"

2)  What is a smart Malayali called?
    Debo"NAIR"

That's all for now.

Balu



Xref: sparky alt.culture.kerala:795 soc.culture.indian:37529 soc.culture.tamil:3741
From: rajeshkr@usc.edu (Rajesh Krishnan)
Newsgroups: alt.culture.kerala,soc.culture.indian,soc.culture.tamil
Subject: ***Dance Performance***
Date: 18 Nov 1992 18:21:21 -0800
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
Distribution: ca
NNTP-Posting-Host: girtab.usc.edu


                               SAMARPAN
                    
                  an offering from the students of the
   
                      APARNA SCHOOL OF DANCE

                   With live music accompaniment by

                   Ramya Harishankar (nattuvangam)
                   Sunanda Chandramouli (vocal)
                   Sudhakar Subramanyam (mridamgam)
                   Krishnan Kutty (violin)
                   Veena Kinhal (veena)

SUNDAY NOVEMBER 22 : 4:00 pm AT CHAPMAN MEMORIAL AUDITORIUM
                                333 N.GLASSEL AVE.
                                ORANGE, CA
FOR INFORMATION CALL 714-552-9043
TICKET $5
NET PROCEEDS FROM THE PERFORMANCE WILL BENEFIT DANCE PROGRAMMING BY THE APARNA
FOUNDATION, A NON PROFIT ORGANIZATION.
From: kanga.caltech.edu!sathi (Narayana Sateesh Pillai)
Newsgroups: alt.culture.kerala
Subject: Reply to plagiarism
Date: 22 Nov 1992 18:47:03 GMT
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
NNTP-Posting-Host: kanga.caltech.edu
Originator: sathi@kanga

In article <Qf3gHL200iV183kWxf@andrew.cmu.edu>  writes:

> We are quick to point out the Hollywood originals of movies such as
> Aksharathettu, New Year, Thoovalsparsham, Prathyekam Shradhikkuka, Ee
> Kaikalil, and the like.  But I never heard anybody claiming that the
> Hollywood super hit "Ghost" is a straight lift from that obscure
> Malayalam movie "Pappan Priyappetta Pappan".  Does this reflect a lack
> of confidence or that mentality expressed in the by now famous dialogue
> from "Chithram":"Sayippanmar Nakkikalakathilla"

	If you consider the probability, it is more likely that the 
Malayalam artists came across the works of the English artists. Hence it
is more likely that the Malayalam artists copy from the English artists.
This does not mean that reverse is not possible, just less likely (and
hence less believable). How many Hollywood directors/producers do you
think watch Malayalam movies? Or read Malayalam books? Or how many 
Malayalam books do you think are translated into English and available
for purchasing here? As a culture, ours is still comparatively
isolated.

	While we're on this, might as well point out this: Yesudas's song
"Ninde Rajyam Varunnoo" (Excuse the horrible transliteration) had it's
tune stolen from the American song "Battle Hymn of the Republic" which
was written around the time of the American Civil War (or earlier?). I 
guess there is no doubt here as to who stole what (unless you want to 
violate causality). I am assuming that the song sung by Yesudas was 
recent - it was quite popular in the mid 70's.

> Prathapan 

TATA!
Sateesh
-- 
		| Sateesh Pillai			
		| 128-95, Caltech
who am I?	| Pasadena, CA 91125
		| (818) 564-1225
From: oommen@psych.purdue.edu (Mona Oommen)
Newsgroups: alt.culture.kerala
Subject: test
Date: 20 Nov 1992 14:11:25 -0600
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

Hi,
this is another one of those tests 

M. Oommen
From: molly@uga.edu ()
Subject: sweet old..
Organization: University of Georgia, Athens
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 13:58:04 GMT


From rigel.econ.uga.edu!emory!swrinde!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!darwin.sura.net!convex!constellation!essex.ecn.uoknor.edu!mchundat Mon Nov 23 08:39:03 EST 1992
Article: 721 of alt.culture.kerala
Newsgroups: alt.culture.kerala
From: mchundat@essex.ecn.uoknor.edu (Mathai Chundattu)
Subject: Sweet old ...
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1992 22:17:37 GMT
Organization: Engineering Computer Network, University of Oklahoma, Norman, OK, USA

chithRam:	pRasaadam




I think this song is from a movie called "Rajayogam" not "Prasadam".
Thanks for the lyrics.




MR


paatiyath:	Yesudas

	dEvee nin chiriyil
	kuLirO paaloLiyO	(2)
	anudinamanudinamennil niRayum
	aaraadhana madhuraagam nee
	dEvee nin chiriyil
	kuLirO paaloLiyO

	manassile thuLasi theertThakkarayil
	thapassirunnoren mOham
	nin divya noopura dhwaniyiluNaRnnu
	niRmmala raagaardra bhaavamaay theeRnnu

	dEvee nin chiriyil
	kuLirO paaloLiyO

	chithRavaRNNaankitha SreekOvilil nJaan
	nithya simhaasanam ninakkaay theertthu
	snEhOpaasanaa manthRavumOthee
	snEhamayee nJaan kaatthirippoo

	dEvee nin chiriyil 
	kuLiro paaloLiyO
	anudinamanudinamennil niRayum
	aaraadhana madhuraagam nee
	dEvee nin chiriyil
	kuLirO paaloLiyO

Enjoy.

Please point out the mistakes in transcription based on the latest
conventions.


Mathai
--
From: rajeshkr@usc.edu (Rajesh Krishnan)
Newsgroups: alt.culture.kerala
Subject: ***Chalachitra Lookam***
Date: 19 Nov 92 00:09:24 GMT
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: girtab.usc.edu

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
	Cinema			Cast			Comments
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Kattukuthira            Tilakan,Vineet,Pappu           * * 
                          Janardhanan,KPAC,Kaviyoor    
                          Ponamma,Innocent

 DIR : P.G. Viswambaran
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Niligiri                 Mammooty,Mala,Soman,Pappu     * Total tamil movie
                          Jayaram,Srividya              style.

 DIR : I.V.Sasi
 Padiyathu : Yesudas,Chitra,Sujatha
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kuruppinte Diary          Balachandra Menon,Jayaram     * * * * Another 
                          Parvathy, Kaviyoor Ponamma    Balachandra Menon 
                          Oduvil UnniKrishnan, Mammu Koya     Entertainer
                          Geetha,Thikkurissi,Monisha

Katha, Thirakatha, Sombhashanam, Samvidhanam : Balachandra Menon
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kiyhakkunarum Pakshi      Mohanlal, Ashokan,Innacent     * * * Good Songs
                          Jagadish,Rekha,Murali,Shankar
                          Sankaradi

Padiayathu : yesudas, chitra. 
 DIR: Venu Nagavalli
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Varnam                     Jayaram, SureshGopi, Parvathi  *** Good film
                           ranjini
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rating on a scale of * to ***** where * is bad...

Peace

-rajesh
From: weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener)
Newsgroups: alt.culture.tuva
Subject: Re: Tuvan languages
Date: 16 Nov 92 15:08:23 GMT
Reply-To: weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener)
Organization: The Wistar Institute of Anatomy and Biology
In-reply-to: rmwade@utkvx3.utk.edu (Robb Wade)

In article <16NOV199209402043@utkvx3.utk.edu>, rmwade@utkvx3 (Robb Wade) writes:
>	d) ending consonant G- this is more voiced than the Russian G  
>in such words as Bog and Kogda.

Huh?  `Bog', the Russian for God, is pronounced differently, like Bach
with a different vowel.  Given this, I don't see if you're making some
essential point, or just a blunder.
-- 
-Matthew P Wiener (weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu)
Newsgroups: alt.culture.tuva
From: rmwade@utkvx3.utk.edu (Robb Wade)
Subject: Re: Tuvan languages
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: University of Tennessee Computing Center
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 03:02:00 GMT

In article <BxMrME.5FJ@ccu.umanitoba.ca>, yackob@eeserv.ee.umanitoba.ca (Kerry "You didn't see me!" Mayor) writes...
>ross@buphy.bu.edu (John B Ross) writes:
 Of course, Tuvan Hillbilly Robb Wade
>   has reported the existence of "How to Speak Tuvan", but it is
>   written in Russian.
><yackob@ee.umanitoba.ca>     One likes to believe in the freedom of khoomei.

	Sorry I haven't posted for awhile, although I have been lurking and
reading the latest postings with interest.  I have before me now the above 
mentioned book, and after much pondering, I have decided to try and translate
this book.  As I have mentioned in previous postings, I am a full time student,
so it may take me awhile, but I will work on it in all my free time. The 
following is an excerpt from the first lesson in the book.  The book is 
divided into 20 such lessons.  Keep in mind that the book was written in
Russian and the Tuvan alphabet is the same as the Russian, with the exceptions
noted later. I have therefore used in this posting a transliteration of the
Russian alphabet, which, if you're not too familiar with Russian, is pretty 
much phonetic, that is it sounds like it is spelled. Ready?? here we go:
	FIRST LESSON---BIRGI KICHEHEHL
	General Information about the Tuvan Language
The Tuvan language belongs to the family of Turkic languages, which also
includes Turkish, Turkmenian, Tatar, Yakut, Kazakh, Uzbek, Azerbaidzhani,
Altai, Khakass, Kirgiz, and other languages. In the Ussr, according to the 
census of f1989, there were 26 Turkic language peoples and nationalities, 
numbering around 50 million. About 230,000 people speak Tuvan: in the USSR-
more than 200,000, in the Mongolian People's Republic-roughly 20,000, and 
in the People's Republic of China-about 4,000 people.
	RULES OF PRONUNCIATION OF SEVERAL SOUNDS
1. Double vowels together must be pronounced as one long vowel sound.
2.  There are four sounds which have no correspondents in the Russian 
language. Study them in order to correctly pronounce them:
	a) the vowel O' (these transliterations are my own device, since I know 
of no standard for them. This letter looks like a Greek theta)  First pronounce
the (Russian) letter Eh (looks like backwards E), and while keeping the
position of the tongue, tound off and stretch the lips outward, as if 
pronouncing the vowel O.
	b) the vowel U' (looks like a Y with an elongated bottom) Pronounce
c~)|C/(d`^~{(looks like backward   (         
Newsgroups: alt.culture.tuva
From: rmwade@utkvx3.utk.edu (Robb Wade)
Subject: Re: Tuvan languages
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: University of Tennessee Computing Center
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 21:36:00 GMT

In article <BBF=4DB@engin.umich.edu>, ftit@campine.engin.umich.edu (Sergej Roytman) writes...
> 
>In article <97804@netnews.upenn.edu>, weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener) writes:
>|In article <16NOV199209402043@utkvx3.utk.edu>, rmwade@utkvx3 (Robb Wade) writes:
>|>	d) ending consonant G- this is more voiced than the Russian G  
>|>in such words as Bog and Kogda.
>|
>|Huh?  `Bog', the Russian for God, is pronounced differently, like Bach
>|with a different vowel.  Given this, I don't see if you're making some
>|essential point, or just a blunder.
> 
>I think it's a regional accent or dialect thing.  I'm from Moscow and
>pronounce it with a hard G, but I've heard people from Kiev tending to
>prononuce this and other words as you describe.  Sorry, only two data-
>oints for what they're worth, but I think the official pronounciation is
>hard-G.
>|-Matthew P Wiener (weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu)

 I just  want to point out that I'm not writing this stuff, just translating
it.  Just so there is no misunderstanding, here is the original Russian text
from that part " konechnyi soglasnyi g- bolee zvonkii, chem russkii g v 
slovakh tipa Bog, kogda;..." I am glad to see some feedback on this though.
Robb the Tuvan Hillbilly
From: larisa@tcville.edsg.hac.com (Larisa Stephan)
Newsgroups: alt.culture.tuva
Subject: Film: "Close to Eden" ("Urga")
Summary: very pleasant Mongolian adventure
Date: 16 Nov 92 17:18:19 GMT
Reply-To: larisa@tcville.edsg.hac.com
Followup-To: alt.culture.tuva
Organization: Hughes Aircraft EOS Electronics Lab

In keeping with recent threads extending the Mongolian connections
of this newsgroup, I thought I would recommend the Russian film
"Close to Eden" (original title "Urga," meaning pole-mounted lasso).

This is a humorous but gently regretful movie about the erosion of an
ancient way of life in Mongolia, featuring lots of pastoral scenes of
rolling grasslands.  As a Californian, I can't help but think that
this is how much of our central valleys used to look before they were
farmed commercially.

The protagonists, Gombo and Pagma, are torn between obeying Chinese
law that limits their family size, and Gombo's hope that a fourth
child might become as great a Mongolian leader as that other fourth
child, Genghis Khan.

Most of the dialogue is in Mongolian, so be sure to catch it when it
comes your way.  (For English-only stiffs like myself, it is sub-
titled).

-- Larisa
larisa@tcville.edsg.hac.com
Newsgroups: alt.culture.tuva
From: rmwade@utkvx3.utk.edu (Robb Wade)
Subject: Re: Tuvan languages
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: University of Tennessee Computing Center
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 13:40:00 GMT

Looks like my first posting got garbled, here is the rest of the posting
starting with   b)  :
>	b) the vowel U' (looks like a Y with an elongated bottom) Pronounce
>the (Russian) letter I (looks like a backwards N), and while holding 
the position of the tongue, round off and stretch the lips outward, as
if pronouncing the vowel U.
	c) the consonant N, (looks like an H with a little tail) While
pronouncing the letter N, slightly raise the back part of the tongue until
it is touching the soft palate, not allowing any air to escape through the
mouth; the exhaled air must go through the nose.
	d) ending consonant G- this is more voiced than the Russian G  
in such words as Bog and Kogda.  This sound is generated in the glottis 
between the root of the tongue and the uvula.
	e) Stress on Tuvan words usually falls on the last syllable of 
the word.
		GREETING AND SALUTATIONS:
May I come in? 			Kirip bolur be?
Yes, enter.			Iie, kirin,er.
Hello!				Ehkii!
Have a seat.			Olurun,ar.
Thank you.			Chettirdim.
How's it going? (informal)	Azhyl-kherek kandyg tur?
Good.				Ehki-le chorup tur.
Thanks for coming by.		Kirgenin,er dehehsh chettirdim.
Goodbye!			Baiyrlyg!
There are more phrases like this in the first lesson.  Now here is a short
sample of lesson 1's vocabulary list:
I		men
you (informal)	sen
you(formal)	siler
small		biche
big		ulug
he,she,it	ol
to go		choruur
to sit		olurar
to look		keer
to give		behehr
yes		iie
no		chok
good		ehki
bad		bagai

Well, you get the picture now of what this book is like. Like I said earlier,
I will work on it all I can in my spare time, and let you know of my 
progress.  Please feel free to e-mail me or post any comments or 
sugeestions on this. 
Robb the Tuvan Hillbilly       
ps I typed this in a hurry so please no spelling flames.

Newsgroups: alt.culture.tuva
From: dan@hpwin051.uksr.hp.com (Dan Bennett)
Subject: Re: Ulaan Bataar (was Re: Uighur & other scripts.)
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 15:57:39 GMT
Organization: the HP UK Response Centre
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1.4 PL6]

Erm...

Just a comment on "Ulaanbaatar" and "Ulan-Ude": there's been a lot of
Communists around these places in the past 60 years. And we all know
how much communists like changing place-names...

And communists' favourite colour...

  --------------------------------------------------------------------------
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 |                Telephone:  (+44) 344 361870   (GMT)                      |
 |                Fax      :  (+44) 344 361737                              |
 |                Hewlett-Packard UK Response Centre,                       |
 |                Amen Corner, Cain Road, Bracknell, Berkshire RG12 1HN, UK |
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Newsgroups: alt.culture.tuva