Newsgroups: rec.music.christian
Subject: Re: What do you do when your child thinks Metallica is cool?
From: jsteiner@anwsun.phya.utoledo.edu (jason 'Think!' steiner)
Date: 15 Nov 92 14:45:11 EST
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nestabro@nova.gmi.edu (Noel Estabrook) writes:
> jsteiner@anwsun.phya.utoledo.edu (jason 'Think!' steiner) writes:
> 
> >know your enemy. 
> 
> I do.  I can attack just about any non-Christian philosophy with 
> Scripture. I have talked to Buddhists, atheists, nihilists, 
> Jehovah's Witnesses, etc etc.  I have not _intimately_ known all of 
> their positions, but God somehow always manages to provide the 
> appropriate Scripture to use in response to false doctrine (just 
> like Jesus in the desert - you'll notice He didn't try to use some 
> stupid logic, He went straight to the Word of God, and Satan had NO 
> answer.  So, too, if we use Scripture, the world will have NO 
> answer except that they are sinners and will have to make a 
> decision to either accept Christ or not).

it might be helpful to know what their false doctrine -is- before
you try to counter it.

in Jesus' case, Satan was arguing from a -scriptural- standpoint, trying
to twist it into something to use against Christ. Christ was rightfully
able to respond with the -truth- about what Satan was quoting. i don't
suggest that we should -not- read our Bibles, accept false doctrines
or any such thing. i -do- believe in using appropriate sources and
being able to make an intelligent defense.

for example:
	if i were to argue the case of evolution with a scientist he
	understandably would not be convinced by my quoting Genesis.
	you might say "fine, he's a reprobate, let him burn". but that
	isn't necessary. -if- i can stoop to using non-scriptural
	sources (the fossil records, logic) to introduce doubt into
	his mind, he is much more likely to look for alternate answers,
	one of which is the Bible. 

an analogy:
	in self-defense, one of the most important rules is that you
	cannot topple an opponant who has a firm stance. no matter
	how hard you pummel him (i.e. quote scripture) he will not
	fall. before you can take him down (convince him) his
	footing must be disturbed. for some people, the loss of spiritual
	footing comes in the form of personal tragedy. but God doesn't
	affect everyone that way. others have to have their systems
	of belief seriously challenged by reason rather than emotion.
	if you cannot present a reasonable argument that they can
	accept, they will not reach a point where they feel -your-
	beliefs may be better and thus come to Christ.

i don't suggest that we should -not- read our Bibles, accept false 
doctrines or any such thing. i -do- believe in using appropriate 
sources and being able to make an intelligent offense as well as an 
intelligent defense. you cannot prove the Bible with the Bible. that 
is circular reasoning and blind faith.

> Scripture can handle any world-view, because outside of God's world-
> view, they are all inherently the same - they deny the necessity of 
> knowing our Lord Jesus Christ.  I don't need to go to a Satanic 
> sacrificial ceremony or read a Satanic bible to be able to point 
> out error and shine the light. 

you may not have to go to a sacrificial ceremony (i never suggested
such a thing), but you'd better know what the Satanic bible says
before trying to counter it with what the Bible says. do you realize
how many satanists there are who have been falsely accused of what
Christians -assumed- they believed out of ignorance of what they
really believed?

> All I really need to know is that it is evil, and that Jesus is the 
> answer. Jesus Himself said, "I am the Way, and the Truth, and the 
> Life, no one comes to the father but through Me."  No deep 
> theology, no complicated algorithms, just a statement that fallen 
> man needs Jesus Christ.

and if someone claimed Nietzsche said the same thing about Christ would
you be able to tell them differently? and how would you counter a
response of "well how would you know?"

> >are you going to use 'Christian ignorance' as an excuse to let 
> >them burn? is your Christ really so weak that prayerful study of a 
> >great philosopher will "lead you away from God"? i certainly hope 
> >not.
> 
> Certainly not.  As a matter of fact, my Christ is so strong that He 
> is able to save people by just the mere mention of his name.  He is 
> so strong that He can overcome any philosophy and show it false 
> with His Word.  

to you, yes. you believe already. what about those who don't? they
exist, you know. what are you going to do about -them-? the question
still stands: is Christ really so weak that prayerful study of a
greath philosopher will "lead you away from God"? and if not, then
why shouldn't you take the opportunity to expand your abilities to
reach to people you haven't begun to reach out to yet?

> I don't need to understand Goethe's Ubermensch to know that what he 
> sought was a fallen, pathetic alternative to what Christ offers 
> (BTW, you'll notice by many of the references in my posts that I am 
> NOT "ignorant" of other points-of-view.  However, I prefer to spend 
> my time studying God's word so that I can "make a ready defense").

how about a "ready offense"?

> >the people who need to be reached most by the message of Christ 
> >will merely laugh (and rightly so) if all you can offer is 'i'm 
> >right and you're wrong'. no wonder the church has a reputation for 
> >blind faith.
> 
> Aaah, but I don't do that.  I say CHRIST is right, you're wrong, 
> and here is the evidence for it.  I will be the first to denounce 
> faith in something not believed (which is what blind faith really 
> is).  But faith in something we KNOW to be true is never blind.

wait, how do you know what it is they believe, when you say "you're
wrong"? and where is your evidence? because the Bible says so?
what if i don't believe the Bible? where are you then? how do you
KNOW the Bible is true? because it says so? that's circular reasoning,
as well as blind, and completely unnecessary.

you realize, of course, that you are using the -exact- same argument
that Jehovah's Witnesses use when their beliefs are challenged.
"I have studied these things in my heart and KNOW them too be true."
it's a cult tactic, pure and simple. even intelligent NON-Christians
know better than to accept that. but they won't accept it from you
any more than they will from their friendly JWs, and they're -still-
going to hell.

> >we're shutting our eyes to the awesome evidence that is all around 
> >us.
> 
> What evidence are you referring to?

the evidence that doesn't happen to be in the Bible, but supports it
anyway. the Bible is the most unique and useful of books, but it does 
not exist in a vaccuum. there is no need for us to act as though it 
does.

> >instead of shining our light into the dark corners of the world 
> >we're telling the people huddled there to close their eyes and 
> >follow us into the light.
> 
> I always tell them to OPEN their eyes and see Jesus, I am simply 
> not qualified to lead them anywhere (being blind myself), only 
> Christ is.

listen very, very, carefully: YOU DON'T HAVE TO BE BLIND. no one does.
we do not have to be nothing for Christ to be great. he will be great
by any standard of comparison. i refuse to believe that i have to
grovel in ignorance in order for Christ's light to shine. he is
so bright that all else pales. that doesn't mean that for me to shine is
futile.

> >is it any wonder that few bother to listen?
> 
> Few bother to listen because Christ's truths are hard.  People have 
> hardened their hearts.

what will you do to soften them?

> Scripture says, "every man is without excuse". 

but they will attempt to use them anyway. how will you challenge them?
with words from a book they don't believe?

> If I share Christ with someone, they won't be able to go to God and 
> say, "yeah, but that guy that shared with me didn't really KNOW 
> where I was coming from.  What he said I needed to do didn't make 
> any sense, I just couldn't relate, you know?"  He'll be in hell, 
> nonetheless.  

they'll be in hell, and God (and you) will wonder why you didn't try 
harder.

> Christ said to go out and preach the Good News to all nations, not spend 
> time arguing about useless philosophy.  

is it useless if people come to Christ because of it?

> The world needs Christ - direct, undiluted, truthful, all-powerful 
> Christ, nothing more, nothing less.

you are correct. does the awareness and knowlege of things that are 
-not- Christ reduce Christ somehow?

the Choir phrased it perfectly when they said "The blood remains as 
pure, that poisoned seas will n'er dilute."

> >jason 'Study! Learn! Think!' steiner
> 
> Noel "have faith, follow Me" Estabrook
> (Which brings up a good point, did Christ give any of the apostles 
> a good "reason" to follow Him?  To be "fishers of men?".  No, He 
> basically said, "hey, I'm going to lead you guys out of sin, follow 
> me."  Christ's message has always been simple and uncluttered, I 
> see no reason to break a model that works.)

that was for -one- set of disciples. there were all different 
personality types among his followers. and he used the appropriate 
approach for each. can you do as well?

jason 'Think! (in many different ways)' steiner

--
would you could you should you cross thru if i could wipe my eyes a blinding
compromise another pinky shave enlightens the brow now cow to die another day
if you prefer outside be blessed sir ostracize better bastard now forgotten
well instead of favored son of hell in hopes to open eyes - scaterd few, U
,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,` jsteiner@anwsun.phya.utoledo.edu ,`,`,`