From: stark@dwovax.enet.dec.com (Todd I. Stark)
Subject: More on Jujutsu history (was Re: Yu-sool, ...)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Date: 10 NOV 92 12:32:48    


In article <1992Nov10.160846.8757@srg.srg.af.mil>, schan@birch.srg.af.mil (Stephen Chan x4485) writes...
>In article <1992Nov9.153921.21938@PA.dec.com> stark@dwovax.enet.dec.com (Todd I. Stark) writes:
>>Historically, (mostly from Draeger and Smith), Yu-sool is apparently 
>>a Korean art and sport of closing and grappling of 12th century origin,
>>independent of Japanese Jujutsu, which was first codified independently 
>>at about the same time.
> 
>	Hmmm...from Draeger's _Classical_Budo_ and _Classical_Bujutsu_, I was
>under the impression that jujitsu, as a seperate, and highly developed art,
>did not appear until at least the 16th/17th centuries, and later. 

That'll teach me to try to post something I know little about 
from memory. :-)

Your impression relates to how it appears in 'Draeger & Smith' also.  I 
misremembered the details.  It was Sumai that they say was popular by the 
12th century, not Jujutsu.  
Many historians seem to correlate the time of the Takenouchi-Ryu (1532) with 
the first true ('separate and highly developed') Jujutsu styles.  

> It was virtually unheard of for a samurai to be totally out of weapons, the 
> few open handed techniques revolved around jamming a yawara stick or a 
> dagger into the chinks in samurai armor. 

Yes, virtually unheard of to be unarmed.  The term Jujutsu didn't refer to 
unarmed fighting apparently, until very recently, at least.  It was 
traditionally an art of 'minor weapons,' as you seem to suggest with your 
references to sticks and daggers.  My understanding is that Takenouchi-Ryu 
included but did not exclusively consist of empty hand techniques.

>Pure "muto" techniques weren't practiced that much,
>because it was extremely unlikely for a samurai to run out of weapons.

Going into the mid 17th century, a number of different schools
had already come into being; using names such as Yawara, Koshi-no-mawari,
Kempo, Hobaku, Taijutsu, Wajutsu, Torite, Shubaku, and Hakuda.

Some seem to have been based on Sumai (ancient combat Sumo wrestling),
and some were influenced by Chinese Ch'uan_fa sources.  Most of these were
actually considered part of Kyuba-no-michi (way of archery and horsemanship),
according to my understanding of D&S.  

From the 17th to 19th century were then the 'Golden Age' of Jujutsu,
wherein it flourished within the framework of the classical Bugei, and
apparently evolved a distinct identity (and set of principles ?).  This would
appear to me be the period most likely where what we now like to think of
as modern 'Aiki' and 'Ju' strategic principles were established and taught as 
such, where various schools during the later period of relative feudal peace
emphasized more the 'muto' aspects of Jujutsu.

>	Am I misinterpreting something?
>	Stephen

Sorry for my error.   

							todd
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