From: dcrosgr@uoft02.utoledo.edu
Newsgroups: talk.rape
Subject: Re: handguns (?)
Date: 18 Aug 92 00:59:05 EST
Organization: University of Toledo, Computer Services

In article <1992Aug18.015742.24311@news.acns.nwu.edu>, query@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Samuel Green) writes:
> In article <1992Aug17.174422.9520@uoft02.utoledo.edu> dcrosgr@uoft02.utoledo.edu writes:
>>In article <1992Aug17.060623.4197@news.acns.nwu.edu>, query@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Samuel Green) writes:
>>>	Deadly force...  That force which is used to cause death or great
>>> bodily harm.  Such force is only to be used as a last resort, when all
>>> other means have failed.
>>> 	You don't exactly have a lot of leeway there...  all other means
>>> have failed means essentially, that you cannot run, you cannot use another,
>>> less deadly means of defense, or the attacker has a weapon classified in
>>> the deadly force group.  Essentially, what this says to me is that a gun is
>>> only to be used for purposes of dealing death.
> u>
>>Not true. Different tates have different requirements. The norm tends to be you
>>must try to use all reasonable alternatives including fleeing. The "Western
>>Defense" (called so because it becomes more predominant as you move west across
>>the country) states that if you are under a reasonable fear or someone
>>attacking you OR your property, you may stop them with deadly force. That can
>>be as little as you are afraid they might strike you barehanded.
>>
> 	Either you are saying that, in order to be able to truthfu;lly say
> that you exhausted every opportunity be actually trying said alternatives
> and discovering that they couldnt work,  or, you dont need to try anything
> at all before you use deadly force, depending on the state?

That is what varying state laws say, yes.


> 	So, if I were in an alley, boxed in by several attackers, I would
> have to try to run, try to fend them off bare handed or with a non deadly
> force class weapon, scream for help, pray to god, dance like a chicken, or
> any of a thousand other things before I could legally shoot them?

No, you ar eboxed in, escape is impossible. Plus, being surrounded by several
attackers means you are already fearing for your life.

But, let's change it. You are in your home when you hear someone knock on the
door. He asks to use your phone. You show him you are armed and let him in, his
friend comes up and tells him to hurry up. The first person pulls out a bag and
starts stuffing valuables into. You ask him what he is doing, and he says "Do
not be alarmed, we will not harm you or interfere with you at all. We are
merely robbing your house. We are unarmed, nd will not hurt you. You are free
to move about and even leave if you wish." Whereupon the second man comes in
and says, "Oh, I just cut the phone line. By the way, nice VCR. I am sure I
will get good money for it. Hope you are insured."

The start to collect the things they want from your house. You pull out the gun
and try to prevent them from leaving. They call your bluff and walk past you.

Do you:

1. Have to let them go, as they are not threatening you or any other human
being?

2. Have to right to protect your castle, and have the right to blow them away?

Surprise! Trick question! BOTH are valid, depending upon the rule of law of the
state you live in.

Oh, by the way, people who thought they lived in state #2, but were really in
state #1, have done some long time.

DC

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