From: owen@autodesk.com (D. Owen Rowley)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.homosexuality
Subject: Re: Call/Fax/Write Fernandez
Date: 15 Dec 92 23:00:10 GMT

In article <1ge3vhINNjit@hp-col.col.hp.com>, smithw@col.hp.com (Walter Smith) writes:
> twpierce@unix.amherst.edu (Tim Pierce) writes:
> > The point of the curriculum is to introduce these concepts not at the
> > time which is most convenient for the parent, but at a time when it
> > seems most important to the child's development.  
 
> When you go teaching something againt a large number of parent's will, 
> you'd better be sure about it. 

Are you saying that your not sure that teaching children core values
at an early age isn't the time to do it?
Stop playing this game of slip and slide, where you complain about the
process one time, and the content another time.
What you are teaching your children is that the tyranny of the majority is
OK, thats about as un-American as you can get Walter.

> > Contrary to what a
> > lot of people seem to think, children learn terms and concepts like
> > "gay" and "faggot" and "dyke" very early on.  It doesn't matter that
> > the parents aren't prepared to deal with those issues; the issues are
> > already there.
 
> But as I said in another post, they have *no* concept of what it means 
> in an adult's sense; they mean it differently.  As they get older, they 
> begin to pick up more of it.  So if you are trying to deal with kids 
> calling each other faggot, you have to deal with it on their terms.
> Telling them that Heather's mommy and her roommate sleep together 
> isnt going to do that.  Telling them that kids who are different 
> are ok, is.  Telling them that mommy and her roommate sleep together 
> is only going to have significance for them when they get older. 

We are talking about treating the cause of bigotry, and you are saying
wait for the symptoms. would you feel the same way if it where a virus
instead of an anti-queer meme.

> > Hence, I don't think that the book saying that "Nancy and
> > Ellen sleep together" is sexually suggestive to the average
> > six-year-old.  It merely explains that some people of the same gender
> > have relationships on the same level as Mommy and Daddy's.
 
> And the majority of people do *not* find that an acceptable lifestyle 
> choice, and do *not* want it taught to their kids as if it is.  They 
> are willing to live and let live, but don't want their kids taught 
> something they do not find acceptable.  Why the need to force it, 
> if they are willing to live and let live? 

You  say that you are not homophobic, but this stement drips with fear.
You consistently push those loaded terms like lifestyle choice, even though
the evidence presented tells you that sexual orientation is intrinsic.
You are saying (in effect) that if children are taught that it is acceptable
to be queer that they will select this as an option. Do you think that the 
queer lifestyle choice ( as you put it) is so compelling that they will
all choose it? Get off this dead horse Walter, the effect of teaching that
queers are a normal and natural componenet of our society will be to 
reduce the suffering that queers recieve due to the institutionalised
bigotry. It will allow kids who *are* queer to find their place in society
and escape the nightmare of growing up as strangers in their own familys.
It will serve to address the problem of queer-kids committing suicide
because every thing they encounter tells them they have no right to live.
Do you know that 3 out of 4 teen suicides is a queer kid?
Do you go out and join the operation rescue ranks to save the unborn walter?
How about the already born Walter, are queer-kids worth less than three
weeks of undifferentiated cells in a womens body to you? DO you realise that
the attitudes you reflect here support the conditions that drive thousands 
of queer kids to their fucking graves !

> > It's my personal opinion that the schools should do this because the
> > evidence tends to point in the direction of same-sex relationships
> > being equally "normal" as opposite-sex relationships. 
 
> Says the gay-rights lobby, but the majority are harldy convinced of 
> this. 

because the majority are fed old wives tales and mis-information.
Ignorance is bliss Walter, when the day comes that you understand this
stuff you will no longer have the comfort of your ignorance.

> > "Heather
> > Has Two Mommies" doesn't attempt to present homosexuality as a
> > positive or negative phenomenon; it merely presents it as a phenomenon
> > that exists.
 
> You're telling me that the intention isn't to present it in a positive
> manner, so that kids will be acceptive of kids who's parents are gay?
> Come on.  When doing something like this, if you present it is a valid 
> thing, it is by default considered positive.   If it didn't present it 
> as positive, WHAT good would it be doing the kids you are supposedly 
> trying to help with it?  

slip sliddin away....

I don't apologise for weak arguments like the one above, but you 
navigate this stuff like a turkish wrestler.

LUX ./. owen
--
D. Owen Rowley {uunet,fernwood,sun}!autodesk!owen

  " It will be a cold March 17th that I celebrate the imposition of
	Romes rule, on Pagan Ireland. Erin go ppphhhhhttttttt! "