HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: flar@bendenweyr.Eng.Sun.COM (Jim Graham)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: A not-so-cheery coming out story
Date: 12 Jan 1993 12:42:53 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Distribution: world
Reply-To: flar@bendenweyr.Eng.Sun.COM (Jim Graham)
NNTP-Posting-Host: bendenweyr

I had a similar experience in my own coming out.  Similar in nature, but
not in degree.  One of my friends was willing to "ignore" the "wrong
decision" I had made and continue the friendship as long as "we didn't
discuss it".  The friendship soon slippped away and afterwards I learned
things about him that made me realize that he wasn't someone that I
wanted as a friend in the first place.

I think an important factor in what Mark said about "He was content only
if you played the relationship by his rules" and in some sense in the
more global issue of being in the closet is that once you start engaging
someone "by their rules", you have placed the "what they think of me"
side of the equation higher than the "what I think of them" side and
you have thus devalued yourself.  In my case, this often led to a
slippery slope which continued to make their opinion of me more and
more important and my opinion of them less and less so.

In effect, you should ask yourself why would *you* want a relationship
with someone that had such a closed mind and who would toss out such a
long-term friendship so easily?

ST402341@brownvm.brown.edu (Gary Byma) writes:
|> I was wrestling with the
|> conflict of whether or not it was personally ethical for me
|> to continue to be friends with someone who was homophobic.

Something in these words suggests to me that his opinion of you, which
would be affected by homophobia, was somehow important to you.  Why not
wrestle with whether or not you want a homophobe for a friend?

|> It saddens
|> me to lose a friend, and I hope that maybe he will come to
|> see that he was wrong, given time.

While I don't mean to dismiss your sense of loss, there is something
here that says that his relationship will be worth something to you
should *he* reconsider and put *his* stamp of approval on you.

I may be projecting too much of some similar experiences of mine into
your situation, but in the long run, I often had stronger feelings
about having let myself be duped than over having lost a friend.

				...jim
From: pgr@crhc.uiuc.edu (Paul Ryan)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Northern Exposure
Date: 12 Jan 1993 16:40:46 -0600
Organization: Center for Reliable and High-Performance Computing, University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
NNTP-Posting-Host: copland.crhc.uiuc.edu

I liked and hated this episode.

Instead of importing queer characters for a "gay" episode, they took a
main character through homo-erotic dreams.  Chris thought he was dreaming
about a man, and that confrontation scene is pretty male - something like
"I want to see your legs, I bet they're strong - oh, God, I can't believe
I said that."

I also liked the idea of an essentialy "straight" but liberal guy having
a homo-erotic experience but still being essentialy straight.  This is
an old idea for Kinsey, but a new idea for mainstream America.

I was also comfortable with Chris's mixed emotions - face it, few of us
liked the idea that we might be gay the first time we considered it.  Chris
as a liberal guy who completely accepts gays but finds his own homoerotic
side a bit overwhelming at first reads pretty true to me.

What I hated was the fact that the ending could be read "oh, it's OK, I'm
really straight," as if Chris could somehow sense that Brother Simon was
a woman, and *that* was what makes it alright.  I guess I'm not offended
so much as I feel like they missed the chance to say something braver and
more meaningful.

My roommate pointed out that they've got an ongoing thing with Chris 
being connected throughout the universe.  He had already found his "black"
side (Bernard) and now he's found his feminine side - she's even named
"Chris."

To go back a week to the anthropology show and Maurice's fairy remark, that
rang pretty true to me, too.  I see Maurice as the voice of a lot of obsolete,
old-fashioned, somewhat prejudiced ideas, and an old, rich, white he-man 
from the John Wayne school of conservatism like Maurice probably would treat
the town's gay couple the way he does.  I think they've made the point that
Maurice is out of the mainstream on this attitude already.

Paul
-- 
Paul Ryan                  (pgr@crhc.uiuc.edu)     1308 West Main St.
Center for Reliable High-Performance Computing     Urbana, IL 61801
University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign         (217) 244-7179
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: foucault@netcom.com (Howard Arthur Faye)
Subject: Re: Nominations for best Men's cologne
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 03:26:30 GMT

In article <1id2goINN73k@mizar.usc.edu> adolphso@mizar.usc.edu (adolphson) writes:
>In article <1993Jan5.210309.14943@PacBell.COM> 
>Jicky is quite different.  It's the first "modern" scent, and I
>think of it sort of as a cool, elegant, utterly refined older sister
>to Shalimar.  And though Eau Imperiale (I don't think that's quite
>right, but I can't think what the right name might be) may be
>"noxious", it does have a particularly nice bottle.  And what
>is your Beloved doing wearing that?  Does he also like Bal a
>Versailles?  White Shoulders?  Jungle Gardenia.  *Joy*?
>
Patou continues to assault us with 'Joy'. A rarified difference is
to be found in Patou Pour Homme, however.

-- 
Howard Arthur Faye * Panglossian Acres * Box 7 * Littlerock, CA   93543

"To eat, to love, to sing, and to digest; in truth, these are the four
acts in this opera bouffe that we call life, and which vanishes like 
bubbles in a bottle of champagne."     --Gioacchino Rossini



Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: solovay@netcom.com (Andrew Solovay)
Subject: Re: Dworkin (was Re: Liberty)
Keywords: menstruation, biological destiny, other nonsense
Organization: Free Faerie Front
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 18:56:15 GMT

In article <1993Jan7.080521.20825@netcom.com> cjlee@netcom.com (Caroline Jean Lee) writes:
>
>Could someone please post "If men could menstrate," by, I believe,
>Andrea Dworkin?

It's actually by Gloria (Playboy Bunny) Steinem, I believe.
-- 
Andrew Solovay    

"I is not now, nor has I ever been, a Human Bein'!"
                ---Pogo Possum
From: berninge@cs.purdue.edu (James Berninger)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Lafayette, IN says "Not yet"
Date: 6 Jan 1993 12:34:11 -0500
Organization: Department of Computer Sciences, Purdue University
NNTP-Posting-Host: alice.cs.purdue.edu

The Lafayette, Indiana city council met to hear the second and final
reading of the proposed anti-discrimination ordinance on Monday, 4
Jan.  However, it was moved and voted 8-1 that the entire ordinance
be tabled until word is recieved from the state regarding a call for
referendum on this issue.  In the words of Councilperson Linda
Timmons, "I cannot vote against this ordinance.  I also cannot vote
for this ordinance without hearing the will of the people."  Timmons
voted in favor of the ordinance on first reading last month, and
made the motion for the delay.

It is not highly likely that the state will allow a public vote --
the state senate "reacted coolly" to the ordinance from the
beginning.  (Somehow, this does not surprise me.)  Parties on both
sides of the issue claim that the majority of Lafayette residents
are on their side -- a phone-in poll run by the local paper showed
about 70% against the ordinance, a random-selection phone survey run
by a group from Purdue University showed a majority in favor (the
exact figure is either around 60 or 80 percent, the numbers elude me
at the moment).

  ______   Jim Berninger: berninge@cs.purdue.edu  |     Hate is not     ______
  \ \  /     Green Lantern Fan, Extraordinaire    |   a Family Value.   \ \  /
   \/\/   "I don't *wanna* play Leona Helmsley!"  | - - - - - - - - - -  \/\/
    \/        -- Elmyra Duff, Tiny Toons Xmas     |  Boycott Colorado.    \/
Xref: sparky soc.motss:55734 ne.motss:667
From: tal@plts.uucp (Tom Limoncelli)
Newsgroups: soc.motss,ne.motss
Subject: Re: IN THE LIFE
Date: 9 Jan 1993 10:52:02 -0500
Organization: P.L.T.S., North Plainfield, NJ, USA
NNTP-Posting-Host: plts.uucp

In article <1i9l67INN5tu@shelley.u.washington.edu> lmeissne@carson.u.washington.edu (Loren Meissner) writes:

>The Gay/Lesbian/Bisexual
>interest program IN THE LIFE will finally be seen in the Puget Sound Area
>on KBTC Channel 28 Tacoma (TCI Cable Channel 33) Tuesday Jan 5 9:30-10PM.
>NO repeats are scheduled and as far as I know, Channel 9 Seattle is still
>refusing to carry the show, so plan now to watch. Thanks.  P.S. This is a
>monthly series. If you like the show, please consider writing Channel 28
>to express appreciation. Thanks.

This one was MUCH better than the previous.  (Or should I say,
"Gorgeous!  GORGEOUS GORGEOUS GORGEOUS!")

The theme of this one was "Coming out".  The three comedians all did
jokes about coming out (mostly).

There was a GREAT piece by the guy that used to play Darren on
Bewitched.  They showed the press conference where he came out and then
an interview, all intermixed with clips from the show.  It was really
funny.  Then they had him talk for a bit about his idea for the perfect
Bewitched "Coming Out Special".  The plot was basically he finds that
he isn't the only human married to a witch.  He starts to meet others
in this situation and eventually comes out to his children about it.
Finally he starts a support group for Mortals Married to Witches.  He
closes by telling of his idea for the beautiful closing scene where he
is marching in the first Mortal Pride Parade and there are hundreds of
people there and he looks over to the street and see's his mother-in-
law holding a sign saying, "I love my mortal son Danniel."  It was
really moving and funny at the same time.

One of the phony commericals was a take-off on the "Franklin Mint"
commercials.  Basically, it was the "Christopher Mint" and "The
Stonewall Collection" ("Each month we'll send you the next piece.")
featuring dolls that typify different 1969 gay/lesbian stereotypes.
"Order now, and receive this free Police Van Carrying Case."

I spoke to the associate director of ITL last Tuesday and he said that
the next one was going to be even better.

Tom
P.S.  Did anyone see the previous one?  The phony commercial last
time was the Schlitz Gay beer commercial from Saturday Night Live!
-- 
Tom Limoncelli -- tal@plts.uucp (home) -- tal@warren.mentorg.com (work)
Heros falling to the ground / like hell's magnet / pulls me down / on my knees
/ I try to please his eyes / his idol eyes. / Jerking motions won't revive him
/ mouth to mount resusitation / I just lay down beside him / and idolize.
From: owen@autodesk.com (D. Owen Rowley)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Minds Change *or* How to Mislead With Numbers
Date: 5 Jan 93 18:37:00 GMT

In article <34@bbx.basis.com>, scott@bbx.basis.com (Scott Amspoker) writes:
> Indeed.  Every time I read about another large city or convention
> supporting the boycott I get a good feeling.  These are *heterosexual*
> people doing this.  There is no way in the present that homosexual people 
> could pull this whole thing off by themselves.  We may not be able to 
> save Colorado but at least there is some glimmer of hope for the rest 
> of the country.

I think this is just the tip of the iceberg, but yeah it points out some
interesting things. When bigotry is brought out in the open, and people
really get to see it in its full scope, people loose their appetite for it.

In order for queers to be accepted in our society, we have to be visible.
We survived in the past by insulating ourselves from the rest of society,
but it also isolated us, and kept us from integrating with society except
under narrow circumstances. 
These laws are attempts to keep us back in those parameters.



LUX ./. owen
--
D. Owen Rowley {uunet,fernwood,sun}!autodesk!owen, owen@autodesk.com
[ EU-PHORIA: A STATE OF WELL BEING ]
Euphoria is my natural state, I do what I enjoy and an abundance 
of all good fortune comes to me for it.
From: owen@autodesk.com (D. Owen Rowley)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Gay men personals...
Date: 6 Jan 93 18:28:26 GMT

In article <1993Jan6.031637.5579@athena.mit.edu>, sun@athena.mit.edu (Tigua Alan Naghel Jackson) writes:
> I should say, it's more
> that being a black American I am forced to consider the implications
> of dating a white.  Particularly, the prime question is: is he
> dating me because I'm black?

I've been dating a black man, because he's a man.

>This is all secondary, though to the reason why I'm posting in the first place
>which is for white men to consider: When placing an ad why say, GWM seeks same
>no fats no fems' when what you mean to say is, 'GWM seeks whatever no colored 
>no fats, no fems...'?

I think you are making a big assumption here regarding the motivation
of the language used in ads.

For one thing there are other racial types besides black and white!
Here in San francisco Asian and Latino are both significant
portions of the overall population.

Heres a question for you, do you think that BWMT is a racist
organisation? 


LUX ./. owen
--
D. Owen Rowley {uunet,fernwood,sun}!autodesk!owen, owen@autodesk.com
[ EU-PHORIA: A STATE OF WELL BEING ]
Euphoria is my natural state, I do what I enjoy and an abundance 
of all good fortune comes to me for it.
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: czmt@gibbs.oit.unc.edu (Season Marie Taylor)
Subject: Ellen Degeneres
Organization: University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 03:34:24 GMT

hey everyone!!

I just got back from my Xmas break.

I went to Atlanta for New Years, and the people that I stayed with told me
that they have seen Ellen Degeneres with her girlfriend in Incognito, a
women's bar owned by Elton John.  I remember someone asking about that before.

Anyway, to all of you whom I told I would send my paper to, I haven't seen
Trey yet, and he's supposed to be converting it for me, so don't worry...I
haven't forgotten.

I hope everyone had a great new year!  I did.  I hope my New Year's Eve
was a good indication of how my year is going to turn out!  Well, I'm
starting to babble, so I guess I'll shut up for now.

season

-- 
                     ____
Season Taylor        \  / "we are one body/we are one spirit/one breath/one
czmt@gibbs.oit.unc.edu\/   dream of life and death/.../one sex"
(yes, as in the 4)                          -sophie b. hawkins
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: mara@panix.com (Mara Chibnik)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Different Strokes (was Re: Changing standards of female beauty)
Date: 7 Jan 93 11:45:07 GMT
Organization: (getting there)


shafer@spdcc.com (Mary Shafer) writes:
 >I agree with you that calling lipstick moisturizing emollient color
 >enhancing rod is pretty far gone on the euphemism scale, but women
 >buy euphemism, too.  In my youth the color one applied to the cheeks
 >was rouge, but now it's blusher.  I am unable to discern any difference
 >in effect between the two.

I learned to apply makeup before (but only just before) "blusher"
was introduced.  Rouge was highly concentrated color, and you were
supposed to apply the least possible, and to blend it outward from
wherever you first put it.  You *never* added rouge after that first
touch; if anything, you removed some of it (with tissues, or
cotton).  Blusher is (or used to be) much less concentrated, and, of
course, it came in a pressed powder form that you applied with a
makeup brush.  The idea was to apply it gradually, increasing the
amount of color you added until you had the effect you wanted.

Blushers were also available in much browner tones than I recall
having been available as rouge.

All of this has probably changed in the last 35 years, though.  I
dunno.  I don't use any of this stuff much any more.

 >By the way, the reason that someone with a naturally dark complection
 >(someone Hispanic, as I recall) would use bronzing gel is to even
 >the color.  At least that's the justification for foundation, which
 >I think is the woman's analog.

Bronzing gel isn't analogous to foundation.  Foundation is more or
less opaque, and is designed not only to smooth out the appearance
of the surface but also to provide a suitable undercoating for the
application of the rest of one's makeup.  Again, in the early days,
this was de rigueur.  In (I think) the 70s, companies began to
introduce things like bronzing gels (and blushing gels, which are
the same except for the colors) that you could use with or without a
base.

But, of course, if you can extend your market by inventing a
rationale, then why not do it?

Best,

Mara
-- 

  Mara Chibnik
  mara@panix.com                Life is too important to be taken seriously.
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: gsmith@lauren.iwr.uni-heidelberg.de (Gene W. Smith)
Subject: Re: Stonewall and Gay Pride
Organization: IWR, University of Heidelberg, Germany
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 93 17:41:47 GMT

In article <1it6itINNl0h@mizar.usc.edu> adolphso@mizar.usc.edu
(adolphson) writes:

>I'd go a bit further than you on this, Jess, and
>claim that the gay and lesbian subcultures which 
>are now to be seen all over the world from Toronto
>to Tokyo (with some regional differences) are 
>specifically American in origin and simply wouldn't 
>exist in their present forms had it not been for 
>Stonewall.

I think Stonewall was primarily a symbolic event with little actual
effect in and of itself.  It came to symbolize something which already
was occuring, in somewhat the same way that Woodstock came to
symbolize the hippie movement.

-- 
     Gene Ward Smith/Brahms Gang/IWR/Ruprecht-Karls University 
               gsmith@kalliope.iwr.uni-heidelberg.de
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: coren@speed.osf.org (Robert Coren)
Subject: Re: Seid umschlungen, Millionen.  Diesen Kuss der ganzen Welt!
Organization: Open Software Foundation
Distribution: na
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 18:48:37 GMT

In article <1993Jan11.060354.28964@netcom.com>, jfh@netcom.com (Jack Hamilton) writes:
> The subject line of this article, by the way, is used near the end of the
> piece, a bit more literally perhaps than in the poem from which it is taken.
> I wonder what percentage of our readers have heard it; I'd guess 80 or 90
> percent. 

Yes, but I'll bet a considerably smaller percentage are *aware* that
they've heard it.

Was it sung in the show?
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: thaaang@cwis.unomaha.edu (John Dorrance)
Subject: Re: What is Clay's real motivation?
Organization: University of Nebraska at Omaha
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 15:26:35 GMT

Never have sex with a child while it's still in the womb, as it may
cause pain for its container. Believe me, I know.

--
thaaang@cwis.unomaha.edu * John Dorrance * Disco Diva y Flamenco Chico
      You would be surprised at what resides in your insides.
	  S7/9 g++l+(+)y++z++/--(++!!!)o+(+)x+a++uv(++)j+
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: kgdykes@thinkage.on.ca (Ken Dykes)
Subject: Re: Please, Guys, What do those Codes Mean!!!
Organization: Thinkage Ltd.
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 22:05:09 GMT

In article <72973@cup.portal.com> Furr@cup.portal.com (George Dalton Madison) writes:
>Ellen Keyne Seebacher writes:
>>Bionic Woman Fan even before I was a Spelling Queen,
>
>You too, eh??  What were your favorite episodes?  Mine were the
>...
>can do _Space:1999_, surely _The Bionic Woman_!

her name wasnt shirley...

   -ken, cringing

-- 
   - Ken Dykes, Thinkage Ltd., Kitchener, Ontario, Canada    [43.47N 80.52W]
         kgdykes@thinkage.on.ca   postmaster@thinkage.com   thinkage!kgdykes
         harley-request@thinkage.on.ca             kgdykes@math.uwaterloo.ca
From: chloupek@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Dissertation on soc.motss (PLEASE READ)
Date: 7 Jan 93 13:33:01 EST
Organization: The Ohio State University, Department of Physics

In article <1993Jan7.135645.27974@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>, dyarman@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Donald L Yarman) writes:
>           SOC.MOTSS AS SUBJECT OF DISSERTATION RESEARCH
> 
>      When I started reading soc.motss in October of 1991, I was
> immediately struck by the folklore that I saw here:  both the
> folklore discussed by the group and the folklore generated by the
> group.  Now that the time has come for me to write my
> dissertation, I would like to study soc.motss. 

Who says academia doesn't provide useful research.

Frank


--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Frank R. Chloupek 
CHLOUPEK@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu 
Department of Physics -- *The* Ohio State University
(Not just any Ohio State University) 

"At Ohio State, we celebrate and learn from our diversity and we value 
individual differences.  Academic freedom is defended within an environment 
of civility, tolerance and mutual respect."
--Ohio State Mission and Vision Statement

Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: jeh@aplcenmp.apl.jhu.edu (Jim Hubbs)
Subject: soc.motss and MOW
Summary: Suggestions for soc.motss meetings at MOW
Organization: Johns Hopkins Continuing Professional Programs
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1993 07:26:22 GMT


There has been a bit of discussion recently about trying to get
this group together in some fashion during the March on
Washington.  I have a few suggestions on the subject.  

Planning one dinner is perhaps a bit too much.  I doubt we could
find a place Friday or Saturday night that could take a large
group.  I would suggest various DC knowledgeable folks take the
initiative and offer to lead contingents of motssers to some of
the wide variety of good eats the town has to offer.  That way we
don't have to come up with one place that satisfies all tastes.

My suggestion for a larger meeting would be for after dinner
drinks/socializing/what-have-you at some convenient meeting
place.  First let's settle on a time (perhaps 9 PM onward).  Then
choose a place (perhaps something in the gay ghetto around Dupont
Circle).  If someone has a rather large hotel suite they'd like
to donate for the event, that would work too.  I don't live close
enough to town, so I am afraid I cannot offer to host.

Since this group knows each other by words rather than by sight,
then any soc.motss paraphernalia would help in bringing the group
together.  T-shirts, buttons, tattoos, etc. would make it easier
to pick out the motssers in what will probably be some rather
large crowds.

If there is enough interest we could probably do this both Friday
and Saturday nights.

Jim Hubbs
Johns Hopkins University
Applied Physics Laboratory
Laurel, MD
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: dbidwa@sei.cmu.edu (Daniel Bidwa)
Subject: Fleas (was Re: crabs (was Re: some other thing))
Organization: Software Engineering Institute
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 13:31:56 EST

joe@spdcc.com (Joseph Francis) wrote:
>Every time I've had a pet (dog,cat) inevitably fleas would come in the
>house (polished hardwood floors or not). collar wasn't a complete
>solution, but a pretty good one. Weekly, or monthly baths and house
>bombs occasionally were warranted.

A folk remedy I've heard from a few different sources (and tried with apparent
success) is to sprinkle a bit of salt in the corners of each room. Reputedly,
the fleas will eat the salt, dehydrate, and die a horrible (yet elegantly
inconspicuous) death. It seemed to do the trick the time that Loaf The Cat
arrived with new tenants. (Fogging the house with chemistry never particularly appealed.)

Disclaimers: we didn't have any carpets in the house, we kind of went
overboard with the salt distribution (about a pound of salt for a five bedroom
house), and we did leave the house at ambient December temperatures for a week
or two while nobody was home, which might've done the trick as well.

ObMotss: having a salt lick in each room is oh so butch.



+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
dbidwa@sei.cmu.edu           she walked out laughing, like it was funny
                             she walked out laughing, it's not funny
Newsgroups: soc.motss,soc.bi