From: REXLEX@fnal.fnal.gov
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: America & Xianity
Date: 22 Jan 93 08:37:34 GMT
Organization: FNAL/AD/Net

In article <Jan.21.03.49.03.1993.17187@athos.rutgers.edu>
johnsd2@jec315.its.rpi.edu.its1 (Daniel Norman Johnson) writes:

>I disagree with this, as its my feeling that a strong separationg
>is a good thing, as it prevents the Church and State from having
>power over each other. (I dont want the State telling me what to believe,
>and I rather expect you don't either!)
>
>Quite honestly, I dont see why the Churches in the country require
>the help of the government.

That is not what the originators intended.  Some states supported certain
Churches but it is a much more pregnate issue that you present.  To say that
you would have the Church devoid of influence over the state is naive.  The
reason the West has the freedoms that it does is because of the Churches
influence upon the governments from the reformation on.   

>>  But it is an important point that needs to be
>>settled for the very interpretation of our constitution depends upon on.

>That is true. But remember, we can control our destiny; we can do whatever
>is right. At worst it requires a constitutional amendment.

Can we really now!  Man control his own destiny!  THis is humanistic.  What is
right anyway?  Is it what an elite tells us whether it be from the scientific
community or from the acedemic community or, God for bid, the political
community.  Or are you thinking more along the line of the 51% vote.

>>  If they do not ground themselves in the
>>infinite/personal as a reference point, as a base, then they will surely not
>>stand the test of time.
>
>Again, why? This time its relevant- how can you ground anything into
>the "infinite/personal", whatever that means?

Simple, as our founding fathers stated, the decalogue was a basis for our
constitution.  Have you ever wondered why democracy has failed, and failed
miserably, when we have imposed it upon non-"Christian" based societies. You
should.  

>>  No longer are the Christian ideals, that
>>set of laws and precepts that our country was founded on, shoring up the
>>freedoms which they gave rise to.
>
>They never did. Show me where Christianity advocates the precepts this
>country was founded on- like the idea that all authority to rule
>comes from those being ruled. That's an important one.

     Judeo-Christian teaching has never been perfectly applied, but it has laid
a foundation for a high view of human life in concept and practice.  Knowing
biblical values, people viewed human life as unique because each individual is
created in the image of God.
     Why has our society changed?  The answer is clear:  The consensus of our
society no longer rests on a Judeo-Christian base, but rather on a humanistic
one. Humanism makes man ''the measure of all things. It puts man rather than
God at the center of all things.
     Today the view that man is a product of chance in an impersonal universe,
results in a secularized society and in a liberal theology in much of the
church.  The Bible has been set aside and humanism in some form is put in it's
place.  Much of the church no longer holds that the Bible is God's Word in all
it teaches.  It simply blends with the current thought forms rather than being
the ''salt that judges and preserves the life of its culture.  Unhappily, this
portion of the church simply changes its standards as the secular, humanist
standards sweep on from one loss of humanness to the next.  What we are
watching is the natural result of humanism in its secular and theological
forms, and the human race is being increasingly devalued.
     In our time, humanism has replaced Christianity as the consensus. This has
had many results, not the least of which is to change our view of people and
their attitudes toward other human beings.  
    For a while, Western culture-from sheer inertia- has continued to live by
the old Christian ethics while increasingly embracing the mechanistic,
humanistic world view of people
      Only recently has a new generation risen to take these theories out of
the labs and classrooms and into the streets.  Its members have carried the
reduction of the value of human beings into everyday life.

>> *And these very freedoms are the hammer blows
>>which are crushing us to bits* now that the basis for them has been put
aside.
>
>They are?  Please provide support for this.
>
Simple, individual rights.  THe Judeo-Christian teachings gave significance to
the individual.  In the constitution certain rights have been made
"inalienable."  The problem lies in that when you remove the base that gave
form to these freedoms, the freedoms them selves become the end.  THe saying is
simple, yet profound:  Freedom without form becomes form without freedom.  ANy
student of history can see that.  The freedoms will only be as high and as
great as the strength of the form that governs them.  The entire west is in
moral decay as it has ensposed humanism and divorced it self from the
Judeo-Christian base.  And what is happening, the frightful inhumanity of man. 
That which was unthinkable a few years ago is now not even considered a topic
of discussion.  For instance, abortion or homosexuality.

Enough, I'd like to continue, but this is long enough and I'm out of time.

One must either live by God's authority or live by human reason -man can not
serve 2 masters.

--Rex