HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: traub@rtf.bt.co.uk (Michael Traub)
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
Subject: Re: A suggestion for rec.food.recipes
Date: 16 Apr 92 07:55:02 GMT
Organization: BT Customer Systems, Brighton, UK

In article <1992Apr15.135445.3869@iscsvax.uni.edu> howard@iscsvax.uni.edu writes:
>In article <1992Apr15.110428.5156@rtf.bt.co.uk>, traub@rtf.bt.co.uk (Michael Traub) writes:
>> 
>> My mother in law is rather poor, and I know the troubles she had
>> getting her Goan Cookery book published. She added a vegetarian/vegan
>> section in her second edition because of her daughter and myself.
>> I would never repost her recipes, even though she is so kind she wouldn't
>> mind. Many of these authors are battling to make a living, reposting
>> their recipes undermines that existence.
>
>Well, could we please have information on how to order this cookbook?
>You keep mentioning that there are great recipies in it- if we send
>along the cost of the shipping will she (or the publishing company)
>ship to the U.S. ?  Does she take U.S. dollars? 
>

The  Goans  are  Christians  (Catholics  actually)  so  they have no qualms
about  what  they  eat,  unlike  most Indians. The cookbook has about forty
pages  of  recipes  detailing  what to do with your favourite carcass:-< At
the  end  there  is five added pages of vegetarian (mostly vegan) meals. As
such  I  can't  really  recommend  the cookbook to any r.f.v readers. Josey
and  I  are  trying to get her to produce a purely vegetarian cookbook, but
while  she  is  in  favour  of  the  idea she is too stubborn to accept any
monetary  help  on  this.  Oh,  and  yes,  she had to *pay* to get the book
published  in  the  first  place. She has made her money back in sales, but
that  is  why  I  am  against turning r.f.v into a "snarf a recipe" club, I
know first hand what has gone into many of these books.

When we do get Elsie to produce a Vegetarian cookery book I shall advertise
it over the net in the time honoured abuse of netiquette manner->


-- 
Michael Traub
BT Customer Systems, Brighton Systems Centre. traub@rtf.bt.co.uk
Organization: Senior, English, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1992 23:25:34 -0400 
From: "David F. McWade" <dm3o+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Vegetarians and Missionaries


>  OK, ___just_for_purposes_of_this_discussion___, what would YOU have used to
>  refute the following inaccuracy...or don't you consider it to be inaccurate?
>  As above, I'll leave the gentleman's name off to prevent his further
>  embarrassment at such a display of ignorance.

>     "I think this is particularly ironic because diabetes is more aggravated
>     (and caused) by fat intake (particularly animal fat intake), than sugar
>     intake.  A vegetarian (vegan) diet is probably the best thing for a
>     diabetic or person interested in not getting diabetes in the future."

Rich, unless you can prove that a diet that is EXTREMELY low in fat is
not the best thing for a diabetic, I suggest you shut up, or not make
innuendo to the supposed "inaccuracy" of my post.

Thank you.

David McWade
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
From: altar@beaufort.sfu.ca (Ted Wayn Altar)
Subject: Re: vitamin D toxicity
Organization: Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1992 05:54:09 GMT


proberts@.informix.com (Paul Roberts) writes:
 
>Re. the recent talk about vitamin (or hormone, or steroid) D, I think
>it has long been known to be toxic in very large quantities, but I was
>under the impression that one had to eat an entire Polar Bear liver to
>get a lethal dose (anyway, this was the urban[?] legend about vit-D
>toxicity). 
>Do we have any figures on how much is too much? Yes, I realise that
>there may be adverse effects at much lower doses than the lethal dose.
 
 
 Again, maybe we should keep in mind that there is no such thing
as a single, or even a pure, calciferol supplement.  For 
instance, it is almost impossible to manufacture even a
toxisterol free product (this substance 248 was wisely named as
`toxisterol' after numerous human poisoning from 1928-1940).  
Decay and transformation of D additives in food under real world
conditions (e.g., from, say microwave cooking) have yet to be
fully explored.
 
 I've already cited some references indicating that people are
already consuming amounts beyond recommended levels.  The long
term effects of amounts even within recommended levels is being
questioned by toxicologists like Jim Moon.  In general, what is
being asked is whether osteoporosis as well as atherosclerosis
might partly be caused or aggrevated by imbalances in the
caliciferol endocrine system caused by a low-level consumption,
of these manufactured forms of "D" over a long period of time.
 
 With respect to this long-term ingestion, how low is still too 
high is what further research needs to determine.  Certainly, 
Linden's (1) epidemiological study in Norway found a correlation 
of an increased incidence of heart attacks with 1200 IU of "D".  
Knox (2) found an general association of "D" ingestion and death 
from ischemic heart disease.  Moon's research is even more general.
 
 I guess the cautious but unsatisfactory answer to your your good
question, is that there is likely no simple answer.  How much
becomes too much is aggrevated with age, fatty diets, smoking, and
other factors. Maybe no one really knows, but it is interesting
to note that recommended levels keep getting lowered.  Anyway,
Dr. Moon's paper should be appearing in the Amer. J. of Clin.
Nutr. latter in the year.
 
 Certainly, there is no need to ingest calciferol if you are
getting a bit of sunlight each day.  If you don't get out enough,
then there are full spectrum lights and UV transparent windows.
As a last desperate measure, then maybe carefully regulated
amounts no greater than RNI amounts of 100 IU/d for nonpregnant
women and adult males should then be considered.
 
 
Knox (1973).  Ischaemic-heart-disease mortality and dietary
       intake of calcium.  LANCET, 1:1465-67.
 
Lindem (1974).  vitamin D and myocardial infarction.
       Br. Med. J., 3:647-50.
 
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
From: altar@beaufort.sfu.ca (Ted Wayn Altar)
Subject: Re: Is there a doctor in the house?
Keywords: net.health.advice.risky.risky.risky
Organization: Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1992 05:11:38 GMT

mccoy@ils.nwu.edu (Jim Mccoy) writes:


>A few recent articles (other than M.T.'s "it's my newsgroup go away" BS)
>have begun to worry me regarding nutritional information and rec.food.veg. 

> . . .
>Other articles recently relating to nutrition and the vegan/vegetarian diet
>have begun to take the tone of: "Don't trust your doctor, he is a paid
>lackey of the meat/dairy industry;  we on the net know the true path to
>health and you should trust us."  This is very, very wrong. 
> . . .

You are parodying what is a legitimate concern.  MD's are great at
what they do best, but they are far from omniscient authorities on
every aspect of preventative health, especially with respect to
diet.  No one has said that MD's are lackeys of the meat/diary
industry, but the amount of nutritional training is either
non-existent or very minimal.  This is not what they are
trained to do..


>If you inform your doctor/nutritionist about your dietary restrictions they
>should be able to work within the boundary you suggest, and if they are
>unable it is certain that the net is capable of providing leads to other
>nutritionist who are adept at providing for your restrictions.  Some
> . . .
 
The experiences of vegetarians with doctors belies your claim.  Permit
me to cite two examples.  An educated couple is raising their baby
as vegan, but their family doctor keeps insisting that the baby needs
cow milk for an adequate supply of calcium.  Now, where do cows
get their calcium?

An East Indian vegetarian woman is depressed about her husband who has
just left a few weeks ago in order to work at a temporary job for
6 months in Africa.   What does her doctor recommend for her
depression?  Start eating meat!  Not only is this completely
wrong as a treatment for mild reactive depression, but demonstrates
complete disrepect for her cultural heritage as a vegetarian.
I wish these examples were infrequent, but they are not.  All
my vegetarian friends, including myself, cannot find the kind of
hypothetical, understanding and informed MD that you suggest is the norm.


> . . .
>If you follow foolish advice from a doctor you are a victim of malpractice.
>If you follow foolish advice from the net you are just plain stupid.

Permit me to add, that if you don't think and read for yourself,
then you have no alternative but to follow the foolish advice of
others.  I think that we can agree that everyone needs to take
some responsibility for their own health care, to become informed
and not simply remain passive recipients of any assigned authority
figure.
     "who shall decide when doctors disagree?"  (Alexander Pope)

                                                    ted
.
From: traub@rtf.bt.co.uk (Michael Traub)
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
Subject: Re: A suggestion for rec.food.recipes
Keywords: This is NOT a recipe.
Date: 14 Apr 92 09:12:25 GMT
Organization: BT Customer Systems, Brighton, UK

In article <1992Apr13.175850.20622@Princeton.EDU> asannuti@dae.Princeton.EDU (Arun M. Sannuti) writes:
>In article <1992Apr13.090449.11583@spider.co.uk> claudiak@spider.co.uk (Claudia Kale) writes:
>>I am saying that the logic behind that club policy has an eerie echo in the
>>call for a newsgroup for "vegetarians only".
>
>	Methinks you misunderstood my arguement.  I was just agreeing
>with Michael's feelings that people should try and confine vegetarian
>bashing to talk.politics.animals.  (IF Michael doesn't agree with
>this, then I misunderstood him)

Well  I  wasn't  even  insisting  on  that!  I  would be very happy if they
ceased  their  tirades  altogether,  but  if they really *have* to come and
hassle  us  in  rec.food.veg  then  let them, it's an unmoderated newsgroup
after  all.  What  I  was saying is that Kamchatka Charlie shouldn't expect
us  to  be  tolerant  of  their  behaviour.  If  meat  eaters  want to read
rec.food.veg  then  fine,  I'm  not stopping them, but if they want to tell
us  that  we  don't  know  what  we  are taling about then I for one am not
prepared  to  take  that  kind  of  behaviour  lying  down.  I  am also not
prepared  to  let such ignorant statments like "cows can be milked forever"
or "eskimos have short lifespans because its cold there" go unanswered.



-- 
Michael Traub
BT Customer Systems, Brighton Systems Centre. traub@rtf.bt.co.uk
From: 491miley@gw.wmich.edu (Tim Miley)
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
Subject: Re: LEATHER
Date: 10 Apr 92 19:31:24 GMT
Article-I.D.: gw.1992Apr10.143124.3780
Organization: Western Michigan University

In article <1992Apr7.155008.4846@rdr.com>, randy%rdr.com@uu.psi.com (Randy Tidd) writes:
> In article <1992Apr7.013529.8091@news.eng.convex.com> jjohnson@convex.com  
> (Jennifer L. Johnson) writes:
>> [ ... ]
>>
>> Animal rights activists are under alot of scrutiny by the anti-animal
>> rights public, so I feel we must strive to be as consistent as
>> possible or we'll look like hypocrits and lose credibility.  To this
>> end, 
>> 
>> I don't 
>> [ ... ]
>>   . allow my companion animals to reproduce
> 
> Does this imply that you have your pets spayed/neutered?  If the answer is  
> no, read no further.  If the answer is yes, I'd like to hear the arguments  
> for such action.  I've always felt that, er, modifying your pets was *not*  
> supportive of animal rights, and is part of the attitude of "we know  
> what's best for another species, so we're going to change them" which I  
> don't subscribe to.
> 
> Disclaimer: no flames or anything here, I'm asking this for my own info.   
> I've heard of this before but never understood it.  BTW I am vegetarian,  
> but more for health reasons than moral ones.
> 
> Randy
> randy@rdr.com

If you have ever seen "The Animals Film," you would know about why we must
control pet populations.  In the film, they show dozens and dozens of stray
dogs and cats being put to sleep and put into a garbage bin to be taken off to
god knows where.  

I believe that eventually, if animal rights becomes mainstream is I suspect it
will one day, domesticated animals will be gone from homes in the world.  The
population will be under control and we will not have feel the need to have
companion animals.  The cats and dogs in America are not native and tend to
upset local rodent/animal populations and are a destabilizing force in the
local ecosystems (as if we aren't!).

Tim

-- 
****************************** "My situation is a solemn one: Life is offered
* 491MILEY@GW.WMICH.EDU      * me on the condition of eating beefsteaks...My
* or                         * will contains directions for my funeral, which
* X91MILEY@GW.WMICH.EDU      * will be followed not by mourning coaches, but by
* Tim Miley                  * oxen, sheep, flocks of poultry, and a small
* Western Michigan University* traveling aquarium of live fish, all wearing
* Kalamazoo, Michigan        * white scarves in honor of the man who perished
****************************** rather than eat his fellow-creatures..."- GBS
From: mma9872@csseq.cs.tamu.edu (Matthew M Agee)
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
Subject: ...more.pet problems...
Date: 13 Apr 92 11:07:37 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Department, Texas A&M University
Originator: mma9872@csseq


	...okay, here is a very big problem i have in which i could use any
information or advice...
	
	...i recently 'rescued' a mouse who was to be used for snake food,
and very much want to set her free...unfortunately, i've been told that she is 
not a field mouse, and cannot survive in the wild (doesn't know how)...rather, 
she is a house mouse, which in her natural state survives by living in human 
dwellings and leeching whatever food she can steal...i've no problem with 
leaving food in an open cage and letting her roam my dwelling or leave it as
she desires, save that i live in rented space; there are lots of toxins and
traps and neighbours who would kill her, not to mention that all the other 
rooms are visited by exterminators, etc...obviously there is no way i can make
her aware of this; she would surely be killed within a week if i set her 
loose...so until i find an acceptable course of action i've been keeping her
in the largest, most comfortable cage i can find (and hating myself for it)...
	...i realise that my vegan views are more extreme than most; please
don't start a flame war with me...my morals are set and will most likely not
be changed by any argument which assumes that some animals are less <good?>
than others...i just need some advice...i do belive that all beings have a
right to freedom and self determination, etc, etc, (my position should be
obvious)...please, anyone who could give me any information on the validity
of the field mouse information or ideas, i would very much appreciate any
feedback...i am absolutely miserable with the thought that she may have to 
spend her life alone in a cage...
	...yes, this post does not directly pertain to food, but in a 
situation as desparate as this one will resort to whatever means are 
avaliable...i hope no one objects...

	...on a different note, several feedback posts i did recently were
mangled (had at least the top few lines hacked off) by my machine, i do not
know why it does this nor do i have any control...sometimes it works, 
sometimes it does not...i simply want to apologise for all the wasted space...
	...the recipe i posted was almost complete, the only missing part
said to buy a commercially availiable prepackeged cajun fifteen bean soup (at 
most grocery stores, i know not the name, but when you see it you will
probably recognise it) and prepare according to the listed instructions,
exceptions noted....it is a very exceptional bean and rice recipe which i
love :)' (that's a lip-smacking tongue)...
					...matthew m. agee...
					mma9872@csseq.cs.tamu.edu
From: traub@rtf.bt.co.uk (Michael Traub)
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
Subject: Re: A suggestion for rec.food.recipies
Date: 17 Apr 92 00:30:03 GMT
Organization: BT Customer Systems, Brighton, UK

In article <1992Apr16.184942.28518@msuinfo.cl.msu.edu> Kamchatka Charlie writes:
>A)  Okay, if you get SOOOOOOO...many supportive email messages, post them.  I'm
>sure these "Supportive" people won't mind you showing them to you.  Who knows;
>as I've said before if it was six or seven others speaking along with you; THEN
>MAYBE I'LL BACK OFF.  Until then; I will continue fighting your intolerance

That would be a breach of netiquette, if the people concerned had wished
their names to be made public they would have posted themselves.

>B)  Excuse us for being politically incorrect.  Just because we use the term
>"Eskimo" instead of the "Proper" name for the group.  Get a grip.

This was in reference to Carol insisting I knew nothing about Eskimos.
Whereas she apparently thinks she does.

>C)  IF this Carol Miller-Tutzauer has sinned by putting actual flesh products
>(NOT MILK, and please NOT EGGS) in her recipes, PLEASE POST THE EVIDENCE.  I'm
>pretty sure that with your 5+ meg of past article storage of which you're so
>proud of you would be able to post, in detail, every recipe which she has
>offered to r.f.v which has FLESH (again, NOT MILK OR EGGS) in the recipe.  I'll
>accept two or three examples.
>
I don't keep postings of other people's recipes, only copies of articles
I have sent out. I suggest you look back through her last postings. You
will find one recently with Oyster Sauce in it.

>Until you answer A and C to my satisfaction, don't expect me to pipe down.
>
Don't pipe down if you don't want to, but can you keep this nonsense
to email in future?

>Kamchatka Charlie
>KAMCHAR@ibm.cl.msu.edu


-- 
   "This isn't an argument, you're just contradicting me!"  "No I'm not."
   
Michael Traub
BT Customer Systems, Brighton Systems Centre. traub@rtf.bt.co.uk
From: howard@iscsvax.uni.edu
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
Subject: Recipe: Chile chili
Date: 17 Apr 92 13:11:39 -0500
Organization: University of Northern Iowa

As promised. 

Chile chili

2 tablespoons olive oil
1 small onion, preferably from Chile, peeled and chopped
2 carrots, sliced fine
1 green pepper, chopped
2 cloves garlic
1 teaspoon cumin
1/4 teaspoon bay leaf powder

1 1/2 cups tomato puree
1 cup water
1 cup red wine, preferably from Chile (actually, I used the Argentine
    wine left over from Monday...What's that you say? There's none
    left because you DRANK it!!!! That wine was for COOKING!!!!!)

1/4 cup hot chili salsa, preferably imported from Chile
2 cups cooked red beans

Heat the oil and saute the vegetables with the spices until soft. Add
the water, tomato, and wine. Bring to a boil for a few minutes to 
cook off the alcohol, then reduce to moderate-low heat. Add the 
salsa and beans. Cook, stirring occasionally, about 1 hour. 

-Mary Howard
From: Kamchatka Charlie
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
Subject: Re: A suggestion for rec.food.recepies
Date: 16 Apr 92 03:47:35 GMT
Organization: Psychosis Unlimited International

I have told Traub this, but...
     If you wish to get ahold of me directly and mail bounces, try
KAMCHAR@ibm.cl.msu.edu.  Some mailers don't check for capitals, and may bounce
mail for that reason.  Mine is one; Traub's seems to be another.
     Not a flame on Traub; just a reminder.

kamchatka charlie
KAMCHAR@ibm.cl.msu.edu
From: tokin@hpmwtd.HP.COM (Toki Noguchi)
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
Subject: Re: Request: Pasta Ceci
Date: 10 Apr 92 13:09:15 GMT
Organization: HP Santa Rosa Site (NMD MTA MWTD). - Santa Rosa, Ca.



Beth,

Sorry to waste band width, but my mail to you keeps bouncing.
Could you please e-mail me? 

Toki


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Toki Noguchi                  |Take a pinch of this and a shake of that
HP Santa Rosa, MWTD           |And a splash of something good.   
Archaeologists date anything! |'Cause a cook just knows by the twitch of  
tokin@hpmwmat.HP.COM          |her nose, the way a good cook should.FraggleRock 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: traub@rtf.bt.co.uk (Michael Traub)
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
Subject: Re: De-muffining
Date: 10 Apr 92 12:13:07 GMT
Organization: BT Customer Systems, Brighton, UK

In article <1992Apr9.233159.28231@tcsi.com> robert@kohlrabi.tcs.com (Robert Blumen) writes:
>It seems that no single vegetable foods (except maybe quinoa or amaranth, I
>can never remember which) has "complete proteins".  Animal foods do have
>them.  Vegetable foods have partial proteins (amino acids) which must be
>"combined" in just the right way to get complete proteins.  Grains and
>beans happen to be one such combination.  I believe that grains + (nuts or
>seeds) is another.   Notice that many traditional vegetarian foods from
>throughout the world feature grain/bean combos:

NO  NO  NO!  Almost  all grains, nuts and legumes contain all the essential
amino  acids.  It's  just  that  the  percentages  do not follow that for a
"first-class"  protein.  For  example  Brown  rice  is  low in Lysine. That
doesn't  mean  that  eating  brown  rice  on  its  own  without  any  other
complementary  amino-acid  bearing  foodstuff  will be dangerous, just that
you  will  need  more Brown Rice than you would if you had combined it with
a complementary food.

In  most  cases  this  is totally irrelevant anyway, as you will eat enough
of  that  food  to ensure adequate amino acid intake without even resorting
to amino-acid combining. Look at the following from an earlier posting:

  You  can  still  survive  quite  easily  without  the  beans.  Brown rice
  provides   sufficient  protein  on  its  own,  its  limiting  amino  acid
  (lysine)  is  actually  in  quite high concentration such that one cup of
  brown  rice  provides  47% of one's daily protein requirement assuming no
  protein  complementation  at  all.  With  any  small  amount  of  protein
  complementation,  even  if  not taken at the same meal, this figure rises
  to 60% (*).

  (*) Nutrition Search Inc. - Nutrition Almanac, Revised Edition 1979.

  That  above  figure  is  based  on  the  *extremely*  bloated USRDA's for
  protein.  If  you  followed the lower WHO standard those numbers would be
  94%  and  120%  respectively (and there is a lot of evidence to show that
  too much protein is bad for you).

Eating  a  high percentage of vegan foods containing the amino acid balance
in  the  same  proportion  as  "first-class"  proteins (e.g. quinoa or soya
beans)  is  an  absolute  waste of time and money. Combining one's foods to
ensure  amino-acid  complementation approximating "first-class" proteins is
similarly a waste of time.

If  you  want  to suffer from a protein deficiency stop eating. This is the
only  easy  way  to  become  protein  deficient.  Even  a diet of chocolate
biscuits and potato crisps would provide you with sufficient protein.



-- 
Michael Traub
BT Customer Systems, Brighton Systems Centre. traub@rtf.bt.co.uk
From: Isabelle.Marie-Anne.Rosso@dartmouth.edu (Isabelle Marie-Anne 
 Rosso)
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
Subject: Re: A suggestion for rec.food.recipies
Date: 8 Apr 92 23:48:48 GMT
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH

I think that posting veg. recipies to the rec.food.recipies newsgroup
is an excellent idea. I am a meat-eater but I love vegetables and I am
certainly very interested in vegetarian recipes! Just because people
consume meat does not mean that they are unwilling to try vegetarian
dishes. On the contrary, it seems to me that the more variety there is
in one's diet, the better.