From: mcgrath@cs.uiuc.edu (Robert McGrath)
Subject: Re: Test that proves OBEs DONT occur
Keywords: n
Reply-To: mcgrath@cs.uiuc.edu
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept of Computer Science
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 14:55:21 GMT

In article <1992Jul21.060610.370@nntp.uoregon.edu>, johnm@cajal.uoregon.edu (John Martin) writes:
|> In article <BrptnH.52C@acsu.buffalo.edu>, ztsindi@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (The Independents - SUNY Buffalo) writes:
|> 
|> >	John Martin claims that the test I posted earilier in NO WAY
|> >proves that OBEs don't occur. The burden of proof, however, rests on
|> >those who claim they DO occur. The test is a controled situation that
|> >precludes any outside help to read the numbers on the card. If 
|> >successful it would PROVE that OBEs happen. But then thats the problem
|> >with scientists isn't it? They always want to set up experiments with
|> 
|> 
|> 
|> Woah, now wait a second.  I did say, and still maintain, that the test
|> in no way proves OBEs don't occur.  I did NOT say: therefore, it MUST
|> occur!  I was trying not to argue the existance of OBEs one way or the
|> other.

Please!  This exchange is way off the point.

Out of Body EXPERIENCES clearly EXIST, just as dreams EXIST.  The question 
is how to explain them.

The *IMPORTANT* questions include [with my opinions in brackets]:

--What do OBE's have in common with each other?  Are we talking about
one thing, or possibly several or many different phenomena?
[Reporting problems aside, I think there seems to be a single phenomnon 
here, possibly related to Near Death Experiences and almost certainly
related to dreaming.]

--How are OBE's different from dreams?  [I think they mainly differ in that
OBEs "feel real", dreams often don't.]

--Does anything leave the body during an OBE?  [I don't think so.]

--What physiological events correlate with the experience? 
[Don't look at me, I don't know!]

--How come some people have them and others don't?  How come some
people can do it at will, and others never experience it?  
[I have no idea!]

--How do we account for the normal "In the Body Experience"?  How
is the OBE related to the IBE?  (This point is due to Susan Blackmore.)
[I have no idea, but it's a really interesting question!]

The argument about whether anyone has ever demonstrated "remote viewing"
or "astral travel" is only relevant to the third question above,
not to the others.  As I understand the data, there have been MANY
experiemnts (many in progress today) in which a target is provided
for astral travellers to pop in and read.  None have shown convincing
evidence of astral travel.  

It is difficult to establish a negative, but the evidence is pretty 
strong that nothing leaves the body during and OBE.  This evidence is 
made stronger by the extremely rocky theoretical problems posed 
by such travel. (What could be travelling?  Where is it travelling?
How does it interact with the material world enough to receive information 
from it but at the same time is indetectable to material instruments?) 
Unless you are willing to discard all that is known of the behavior of
physical matter, the "astral travel" hypothesis is very difficult to
defend, even theoretically.

My main point is, though, that even without astral travelling, OBE's 
exist and are very interesting.  It frustrates me to see people argue 
endlessly over one point when there are so many other questions worth
considering.

---
  Robert E. McGrath
  Urbana Illinois
  mcgrath@cs.uiuc.edu

Newsgroups: alt.paranormal,sci.skeptic