HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: johnson@cs.uiuc.edu (Ralph Johnson)
Subject: Re: A little glossary for objects
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept. of Comp. Sci., Urbana, IL
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1992 16:10:55 GMT

mat@mole-end.matawan.nj.us writes:


>In such languages, the use of `sub' and `super' is often confusing, because
>the subclass is represented by a superstructure on the superclass.  (Hence
>the classic advice to OO'rs moving to C++: ``Don't say `sub' and `super,' say
>`base' and `derived'.'')

The C++ programmers around here all say "subclass" and "superclass",
and nobody gets confused.   They never use the word "superstructure".
"Base" and "derived" are perfectly good words, too, but they are no
better or more natural than "subclass" and "superclass".  What is
important is to be consistent and to avoid introducing too much new
terminology.   One of the problems with the OO field is that each idea
has several names.  This makes it hard for people to communicate with
each other.  Since several different languages are used here, everyone
uses the terms "subclass" and "superclass" and people can communicate
with each other easily, even if they are used to using different 
programming languages.

Ralph Johnson --  University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
From: saslbb@chestnut.unx.sas.com (Lisa Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.object
Subject: OO design and programming training
Date: 21 Dec 92 14:46:25 GMT
Organization: SAS Institute Inc.
Originator: saslbb@chestnut.unx.sas.com


I'm interested in getting some formal training in OO programming
and design.  I would like some suggestions about how and where
to get this training.  Someone once recommended a company called
Semaphore Training which is a company that specializes in Object
Technology.  I would like to hear comments anyone might have about
this company or any other company where you have received OO training.

Lisa Brown
saslbb@unx.sas.com
Newsgroups: comp.object
From: rct@fulcrum.co.uk (Richard Taylor)
Subject: Rumbaugh/OMT - Unix design tool needed
Organization: Fulcrum Communications
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 15:45:24 GMT

I need a design tool based around the Rumbaugh/OMT method, that will run on
a Sun. I have heard that Rumbaugh's company, General Electric, markets one.
Does anyone have the email (or real) address for GE in the UK or Europe?

Also, if anyone has any experience of it, or other OMT offerings, I would be
very interested to hear.

Thanks in advance,

Regards,
============================================================================
Richard Taylor                  DoD #981                 (rct@fulcrum.co.uk)
   Heard about the dyslexic devil worshipper who sold his soul to Santa?
============================================================================
Fulcrum Communications Ltd., Fordrough Lane, Birmingham, B9 5LD, ENGLAND.
Organization: Ministry of Education, Computer Center NETNEWS system V2.3
Date: Wednesday, 30 Dec 1992 10:31:48 EST
From: <GOVE111@TWNMOE10.BITNET>
Newsgroups: comp.object
Subject: Re: A Pre-Release FAQ
 <PCG.92Dec29203617@decb.aber.ac.uk> <1992Dec30.012400.4233@netcom.com>

Hello All,

I am very interested to be a member of comp.object. Could somebody

tell me how to subscribe this talking group. I mean where should I send

the subscribe message, and whom should I mail to ?


Thank you advance.


Henry Change

GOVE111@TWNMOE10.BITNET
Newsgroups: comp.object
From: grogono@cs.concordia.ca (Peter Grogono)
Subject: Re: Object hidden state and side effects
Organization: Computer Science, Concordia University, Montreal, Quebec
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 21:48:11 GMT

In article <BzMnKp.B4J@inews.Intel.COM> bongalon@tcad05.intel.com (Ben Bongalon) writes:
>
>my question is:
>
>why would you want to consider "i" and "(i^5)" as equal but not
>identical values? Do you consider "1" and "(3-2)" equal but not 
>identical also?  From a pragmatic point of view, the distinction
>between the simplified and unsimplified forms of the expressions 
>seem questionable.

It depends what you mean by "pragmatic". It is true that, when we are
thinking informally, there is not much difference between "1" and
"3-2". But there is a vast difference computationally. Many
languages, including Prolog, are formally defined as term languages.
In a term language, "1" and "3-2" are different terms and are thererfore
unequal. A Prolog interpreter needs a simplifier, which would not be
part of a "formal" implementation, to turn one into the other.
The consequence is that arithmetic predicates behave differently
from other predicates, although implementations try to hide this as
much as they can.

Peter
From: tmb@arolla.idiap.ch (Thomas M. Breuel)
Newsgroups: comp.object
Subject: Re: A Pre-Release FAQ
Date: 3 Jan 93 23:09:07
Organization: IDIAP (Institut Dalle Molle d'Intelligence Artificielle
	Perceptive)
Reply-To: tmb@idiap.ch
NNTP-Posting-Host: arolla.idiap.ch
In-reply-to: Bob Hathaway's message of Tue, 29 Dec 1992 04:23:55 GMT

In article <1992Dec29.042355.10967@netcom.com> Bob Hathaway <objsys@netcom.com> writes:
   What Is an Object?

   Simply put, an object is a variable.  In classical object-oriented programming,
   this variable has a type (called a class) defining its structure and
   operations (called methods) which may be performed on the object.  Classes
   also define inheritance for objects.

Bad start. Variables are names for objects, they are not objects
themselves. Furthermore, in "classical OO programming", variables
didn't have types, only objects did.

A better definition might be:

	An object is a data structure with a set of operations defined
	on it. An object-oriented language provides special language
	constructs for supporting or even enforcing such an
	association between data structures and operations on them.

					Thomas.

Newsgroups: comp.object
From: protocom@DMI.USherb.CA (protocom-Laurent turcotte)
Subject: Teaching kids/Adults OOP concepts
Organization: Universite de Sherbrooke -- Dept. d'Informatique
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1993 05:14:56 GMT


                                          
I'm looking for ANY info about TEACHING OOP to kids or adults...
                                                                    
        -It could be done using smalltalk and turtle graphics...    
                                                                    
        -It could be done using hyperCard like programs...
                                            
        -It could be done with a book od some kind...   
 
        -Anything (the sky is the limit)
                                                        
I'm thinking of doing a University school project on this
                                                                      
P.S. ANY FEED BACK ON THIS IS DEEPLY APPRECIATED NO MATER HOW SMALL

-- 
Larry Turcotte                           Internet:protocom@dmi.usherb.ca
computer science student/consultant
consulting company:Protocom              Is there anybody out there.....
Newsgroups: comp.object
From: mat@mole-end.matawan.nj.us
Subject: Re: Equality
Summary: What means `equal' ?  Does Equal == Sugar Twin (on the bedpost overnight)
Organization: :
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1992 07:46:20 GMT


In article <knight.725232043@cunews>, knight@mrco.carleton.ca (Alan Knight) writes:
 
> I think that you are trying to take a very strong definition of
> equality that can work for some mathematical abstractions and apply it
> to everything.  I don't think this definition of equality is universal
> in mathematics either. One often refers to two sides of a triangle
> being equal, meaning that their lengths are equal. I, and others, have
> already mentioned graphs.

I seem to recall that that notion of `equality' was called `congruence'.

And perhaps there is a lesson in that: given that all of these things
are models (where a model is an abstraction expressed in a representation)
we have to ask whether we mean

	equivalence-in-use of the thing abstracted, whatever
	it or they be,

	or equivalence-in-structure of the representation,

	or even unique identity of the representation.

This is rather like the opening scene of _The Hobbit_, when Bilbo says
``Good Morning!'' and Gandalf answers ``What do you mean by that?''
-- 
 (This man's opinions are his own.)
 From mole-end				Mark Terribile

 mat@mole-end.matawan.nj.us, Somewhere in Matawan, NJ
Newsgroups: comp.object,comp.os.os2.programmer,comp.lang.c++
From: zxmsu01@studserv.zdv.uni-tuebingen.de (Q)
Subject: Looking for class library for threads
Keywords: threads, class library, query, c++
Organization: Comp. Center (ZDV) U of Tuebingen, FRG
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 20:22:58 GMT

Hi,

   My Dad is currently looking for a set of class libraries for OO pro-
gramming with threads. It doesn't neccesarily have to be for a specific
OS, or compiler, so just the sources would be fine, or maybe a reference
to an ftp site or some piece of literature that would help. Email response
would be fine.

   Thanks in advance, 

   Joost
--
+-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-jschuur@studserv.zdv.uni-tuebingen.de=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-+
|Joost Schuur, Carl Alexanderweg 3/1 | MUD: Jose@Nightfall 134.2.62.161 4242 |
|7033 Herrenberg, Germany            | Voice: Intl 49 - 7032 / 5761          |
+-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=A still somewhat bewildered user of Linux-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-+
From: pcg@aber.ac.uk (Piercarlo Grandi)
Newsgroups: comp.object
Subject: Re: A Pre-Release FAQ
Date: 1 Jan 93 18:24:52 GMT
Reply-To: pcg@aber.ac.uk (Piercarlo Grandi)
Organization: Prifysgol Cymru, Aberystwyth

On 30 Dec 92 11:09:04 GMT, jcrw@fmg.bt.co.uk (Jeremy Wilson) said:

jcrw> Piercarlo Grandi (pcg@aber.ac.uk) wrote:

pcg> On 29 Dec 92 04:23:55 GMT, objsys@netcom.com (Bob Hathaway) said:

pcg> A point of order too: a FAQ should not be about the FAQ author's
pcg> opinions; the FAQ should only be a list of facts: ...  "D";
pcg> Cardelli and Wegner in their poorly edited article say "E" on page
pcg> P and then "F" on page Q;' and so on.

jcrw> HHMM!! Sounds like an opinion to me ! But then that's just my
jcrw> opinion!!

I was also making the point that the *editor* of a FAQ has _some_
privilege for his efforts, like putting *his* opinions alongside those
of established authorities, and they are identified as such. :-)

jcrw> Still I agree that saying that an object is a variable is not very
jcrw> helpful.

I see you are very english, I am just a loud wop. :-)
--
Piercarlo Grandi, Dept of CS, PC/UW@Aberystwyth <pcg@aber.ac.uk>
  E l'italiano cantava, cantava. E le sue disperate invocazioni giunsero
  alle orecchie del suo divino protettore, il dio della barzelletta
From: gb@cs.purdue.edu (Gerald Baumgartner)
Newsgroups: comp.object
Subject: Re: GCC 2.3.2 implementation of signatures for C++
Date: 24 Dec 1992 02:24:46 -0500
Organization: Department of Computer Sciences, Purdue University
	<1992Dec23.151615.27346@fnbc.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ector.cs.purdue.edu
In-reply-to: billb@nasty's message of 23 Dec 92 15:16:15 GMT

In article <1992Dec23.151615.27346@fnbc.com> billb@nasty (Bill Burcham) writes:
> In article <1h8cg6INNccc@ector.cs.purdue.edu> gb@cs.purdue.edu (Gerald  
> Baumgartner) writes:
> > Roughly, signatures are type abstractions or interfaces of classes.
> > They are related to ML's signatures, categories in Scratchpad II,
> > definition modules in Modula-2, interface modules in Modula-3, and
> > types in POOL-I.

> .. or protocols in Objective-C?  Is there any plan to add a distributed  
> object capability using signatures?

I don't know Objective-C, I haven't been able to dig out any reference
yet.  From what I can tell from reading the YACC grammar of
Objective-C, it has INTERFACE classes and IMPLEMENTATION classes.
Those interface classes seem to be related to signatures.

A distributed object capability is not done by just adding signatures.
Our signatures are compile time type definitions.  The compiler uses
them only for type checking purposes.  At run time, the only type
information that's available is the signature table (similar to a
virtual function table).  It is used to dispatch to the correct class
method.

To allow passing objects in a distributed environment, you need a
run-time notion of signatures.  And you need to perform type checks
(i.e., signature conformance checks) at run time when an object is
sent from one machine to another.

There is research done here at Purdue on building a distributed object
system for a heterogenous programming environment, but this research
is independent of the signature language construct for C++.  In fact
it is independent of the programming language.

--Gerald
Newsgroups: comp.object
From: mat@mole-end.matawan.nj.us
Subject: Re: A little glossary for objects
Summary: A value is a value is a value
Organization: :
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1992 01:44:06 GMT

In article <1992Dec23.151238.3419@Informatik.TU-Muenchen.DE>, rumpe@Informatik.TU-Muenchen.DE (Bernhard Rumpe) writes:
 
> Little glossary of object oriented software developement
> ========================================================
> ... This glossary aims at giving small, rather formal definitions of object
> oriented notions. ...  So what do you think of the following definitions?
> responsible:  Peter Sommerlad, Alois Stritzinger, Bernhard Rumpe

 
> VALUE
> 
> A value is a value is a value.

Forgive me for smiling.  In my forthcoming C++ book, I found myself forced
to write something like this:

	``A value is harder to define, but we usually know it when
 
> INHERITANCE
 
> Inheritance is a binary, transitive, acyclic relation on classes.
> A subclass inherits the class specification (signature and behaviour)
> of a superclass and may extend it.
> 
> Comments:
> - A class may have one or several direct superclasses. This is called
>   single or multiple inheritance respectively.
> ...

I don't see how you classify inheritance as a binary relation.  Could you
be more specific?
 
> - In many languages a subclass inherits also the structure of a superclass
>   and may extend it.
> ...

In such languages, the use of `sub' and `super' is often confusing, because
the subclass is represented by a superstructure on the superclass.  (Hence
the classic advice to OO'rs moving to C++: ``Don't say `sub' and `super,' say
`base' and `derived'.'')

> - The term "inheritance" is sometimes (mis-)used for code reuse violating
>   the subfamily relation.
> ...

I would say rather that the true inheritance of types is often confused
with the mechanism by which inheritance is supported in the programming
language, and the latter used in ways inimical to the former.
-- 
 (This man's opinions are his own.)
 From mole-end				Mark Terribile

 mat@mole-end.matawan.nj.us, Somewhere in Matawan, NJ
Newsgroups: comp.object
From: steinman@hslrswi.hasler.ascom.ch (Jan Steinman - Bytesmiths, 3946)
Subject: Re: Equality
Reply-To: steinman@hslrswi.hasler.ascom.ch
Organization: Ascom Hasler AG
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 14:47:30 GMT

In article 18914@nntp.nta.no, klaus@hal.nta.no (Klaus Gaarder) writes:
>In article <1992Dec22.234147.480@neptune.inf.ethz.ch>
>santas@inf.ethz.ch (Philip) writes:

>To my knowledge the only sensible interpretation of 'equality' and the relation
>usually written '=' is as _identity_. Ie, 'x=y' is interpreted as true iff x and
>y denote _the same (mathematical)object_. The thread of discussion would probably
>benefit from exchanging 'equality' with 'equivalent', since this seems to be what
>the discussion is all about. Do not confuse 'equal to' with 'equivalent to'!

So, you have two coins in your pocket of the same value. The two are not equal
because they are not the same coin? Equality and Identity are fundamentally
different, perhaps, although not necessarily, for "value" objects, and usually,
although again not necessarily, for non-value objects.

It is necessary to model values, whether by coins, objects, or by graphite
smeared on bleached, pressed wood fiber. Models are necesarily approximations,
and are optimized for different purposes. Since the '3' inside a computer is
but a model, it is *never* the pattern of phosphors that cause a '3' to be
displayed on a screen, and is *never* the same as the concept of "threeness"
that registers in the mind of someone reading that screen. Are these all
inequal because they are different?

---
: : Jan Steinman, Bytesmiths			   steinman@hasler.ascom.ch : :
: : 2002 Parkside Court, West Linn, OR 97068-2767 USA	    +1 503 657 7703 : :
: : Beundenfeldstrasse 35, CH-3013, Bern, Switzerland	    +41 31 999 3946 : :
Newsgroups: comp.object
Subject: Re: Choreographer by GUIdance Tech.
From: philbo@arasta.uucp (Phillip Lindsay)
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 92 23:43:07 PST
Distribution: world
Organization: Phillip Lindsay, Tustin CA
Keywords: Choreographer GUIdance

ll0x+@andrew.cmu.edu (Lawrence Linn) writes:

> Our company has just seen a demonstartion of Choreographer by GUIdance
> Tech. and I was wondering if anyone in the group has any comments on the
> product???
I did an evaluation for my company last year.  We liked the product
in general, but at the time we didn't think it was mature enough (buggy)
for mission critical applications--We also decided against proprietary
languages in general (We felt that software assets created using
proprietary tools have diminished value).
I believe the version we tested was 1.2.  The environment I played
with reminded of Smalltalk, but with better GUI tools and more
algo-like syntax. The product had a nice GUI development environment where
you could click on a GUI object and get a source code window. You could also
click on a GUI object in their browser and get the GUI designer/editor.  They
had the starts of a project/object database for group development (they
had no hooks to source management at time).  They had support for threads.
The language is a mix of Smalltalk/C++/Lisp/Basic...The language syntax was
pretty loose in the version I tested. They told me the next version
was going to use a yacc based grammar (I think the version I tested
had a home grown parser).  The original prototype was done in lisp.
That is all I remember at the moment.



--
Phillip Lindsay "Government for the Politicians for Japan."
INTERNET: 75230.300@compuserve.com ** UUCP: uunet!zardox!dhw68k!arasta!philbo
Phone: 714-385-2311 ** USMAIL: 2955 Champion Way, #175, Tustin, Ca. 92680
Newsgroups: comp.object
From: Des.Kenny@bbs.actrix.gen.nz
Subject: Re: Need basic OO information
Organization: Actrix Information Exchange
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 22:36:25 GMT
Summary: Project Examples 
Keywords: OO Examples, Actual Industry Projects 

In article <1377@se.alcbel.be> cgra@btma74.nohost.nodomain () writes:
> 
> Not an answer, but a me-too-please.
> 
> Yesterday evening I attended an "Introduction to Object-Oriented Analysis"
> provided by our training department.  The lecturer started by apologising
> for the lack of concrete examples in her presentation - she had been unable
> to find anything in the literature beyond the old schoolbook of examples of
> closed-curve/polygon/ellipse... and "a zebra is a horse, but black with white
> stripes" (plus you can't ride it, quipped I).
> 
> What she would really have liked was examples of practical design problems
> which were demonstrably better tackled using OOA, or of real systems which
> had benifited from the application of OOA.  She hadn't found any.
> 
> This is very strange.  Are we to conclude...
> 
> - that in 10 years or so of OO analysis, design, and programming not one
> wothwhile practical example has emerged?
> 
> - or that the OO community are so unskilled in the art of self-advertisement
> that shining examples of OOA are going unreported?
> 
> - or that organisations using OOA are achieving such brilliant results that
> they are concealing the fact in order to retain the competitive advantage
> this wins them?
> 
> OK you guys - flood me with brilliant examples of OOA/D/P that I can feed
> back to teacher.  Fire me with enthusiasm, and convert me (and just about
> everyone I know) from cynical doubter to blazing apostle!
> 
> Then maybe I'll bother attending the next session - "Introduction to 
> Object-Oriented Design"...              ;->
> 
> Merry Xmas all,
> 
> Chris             cgra@se.alcbel.br
> ____________________________________________________________________________
> All opinions expressed are those of the author, and are unlikely to coincide
> with the official policy of Alcatel or any other such organisation.
> Nothing in this message should be taken to imply that Alcatel are anything
> less than totally committed to the application of OO principles, as to make
> such an insinuation would be a negative career move of some magnitude.


Contact:
 Dr Jean-Marc Nerson at Societe des Outils du Logiciel ( SOL) in Paris.

 He can discuss real projects that have been done in the European Community
 Business Class project and other projects in various countries. 

 The Business Class project is designing a methodology , CASE tools , Business
 applications and classes.
 
 The methodology is called BON. It is definitely worth a careful look.

 email: marc@eiffel.com

 I hope this helps.

 Des Kenny
 Objective Methods Ltd
 PO Box 17356
 Wellington
 New Zealand
 Phone: 64 4 476 9499
 Fax:   64 4 476 9237
 Email: Des.Kenny@bbs.actrix.gen.nz
From: jcrw@fmg.bt.co.uk (Jeremy Wilson)
Newsgroups: comp.object
Subject: Re: A Pre-Release FAQ
Date: 30 Dec 92 11:09:04 GMT
Organization: British Telecom
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5

Piercarlo Grandi (pcg@aber.ac.uk) wrote:
: On 29 Dec 92 04:23:55 GMT, objsys@netcom.com (Bob Hathaway) said:

: A point of order too: a FAQ should not be about the FAQ author's
: opinions; the FAQ should only be a list of facts: 
...
: "D"; Cardelli and Wegner in their poorly edited article say "E" on page
: P and then "F" on page Q;' and so on.

HHMM!! Sounds like an opinion to me ! But then that's just my opinion!!
Still I agree that saying that an object is a variable is not very 
 helpful.

Jeremy Wilson
Newsgroups: comp.object
From: akao@.com (Adam Kao)
Subject: Re: A Pre-Release FAQ
Organization: Oracle Corporation, Redwood Shores, CA
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 20:55:16 GMT
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by an unauthenticated user
              at Oracle Corporation.  The opinions expressed are those
              of the user and not necessarily those of Oracle.

In article <PCG.92Dec29203617@decb.aber.ac.uk> pcg@aber.ac.uk (Piercarlo Grandi) writes:
>Gripe about definition of an object.


I agree with what Piercarlo said, though not with how he said it.

I appreciate Bob's time and effort towards a real FAQ.  I also
understand Piercarlo's frustration, because the proposed FAQ really is
a statement of opinion, and this is a fundamental problem.  Neither
Piercarlo (nor I) wish to tweak specific entries in the FAQ, because
most of the entries are flawed in the same way.

Let me reiterate Piercarlo's point, without the histrionics.  There is
a particular style and point of view necessary for writing a FAQ, and
the proposed FAQ does not have it.  It is like writing a newspaper
story that sounds like an advertisement.  A FAQ does not express or
prefer an opinion; it simply lists widely held opinions.  An ideal FAQ
gives no hint of the author's own opinion.

Furthermore, not all opinions belong in a FAQ.  I personally have many
heretical ideas about OOP, which I would _never_ submit for a FAQ.
I know I'm right, but I also know few would agree with me.  A FAQ
should include opinions based not on whether they are _true_, but
based on whether they are widely read and influential.

Therefore a FAQ should quote heavily from reference works, like those
Piercarlo listed:  the Simula 67 definition, the Smalltalk manual,
Cardelli and Wegner, Meyer, Stroustrup, Booch, and so on.

A FAQ doesn't argue what's _right_, it summarizes what's been _said_.


I respect Bob for showing more initiative than we in the peanut gallery,
but I feel most of the answers represent work in the wrong direction.
I do believe the list of questions is a good start, and I hope Bob is
collecting alternative answers to the questions to be knit together
into a new document.  I also hope that the alternative answers will
primarily summarize widely read works instead of being statements of
personal opinion.


Adam