HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mara@panix.com (Mara Chibnik)
Subject: Re: Castro Street (Re: Two threads: women posting and "cures" and its spinoffs)
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 17:11:14 GMT
Organization: (getting there)


The storm had the aftereffect of knocking out the new supply to our
feed.  It's been restored.  Normally, I'd check the full thread
before jumping into do more damage on a thread like this one, but
this is one time I'm not going to.  I may live to regret it:

TMCCART3@ua1vm.ua.edu writes (in answer to Steve Dyer):
 [ deleted ]
 >Well, your history from what I've understood from some of the e-mail
 >I've been getting is that you're kinda misogynistic. I know that's
 >a real buzzword here, but if you're the champion of "an inclusive
 >environment for women" you claim to be, surely you could have seen
 >Melmon's post for the tripe it was and responded to *that* also.
 >Or maybe he's in *your* kill file as well. Pity my software won't support
 >that function.


I want to say for the record that I don't see Steve as misogynistic
at all.  He has described himself as "homosocial," and I read an
article of his not long ago in which he described himself as not
inclined to get emotionally involved with women.  (I'm not putting
this the way he put it, but I trust him to correct my phrasing to
something he thinks describes him better than this.)  That's a far
cry from being misogynistic.  I thought, when I read that article,
that it may be precisely on account of the lack of emotional
connections he has toward women that Steve is meticulous in
rejecting misogyny and in taking others to task in soc.motss for
expressing it.

Tracey, I don't know whether you picked this up from any email I
sent, but just in case you did, I want to correct that impression.


Mara
-- 

  Mara Chibnik
  mara@panix.com                Life is too important to be taken seriously.

Newsgroups: soc.motss,soc.bi
From: idx009@cck.coventry.ac.uk (the Crisco Kid)
Subject: Re: The MOW Platform (was Re: NOTICE - Details...)
Organization: Eris's Restaurant
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 09:51:35 GMT

In article <1992Dec17.014804.21044@watson.ibm.com> jakec@ralvmm.vnet.ibm.com writes:
>bizarre response, mike, telling me that i'm not acting out
>of good conscience.  tell me, are you treating headaches
>with DMSO and rubbing alcohol?

Do what, Jake?  dimethyl sulphoxide?  Since when has it been any good
for headaches?  Nice solvent, good for transporting stuff through the
skin, yes; but...

Don't tell me you're suggesting transferring the gunk in rubbing
alcohol transdermally with DMSO?

>and which, precisely, are you?  the supporter, the bloody
>hypocrite, or the moron?  we're close to writing a Peter
>Greenway film here.

As long as Nyman writes the music and Michael Clarke plays somebody
cute and naked, I don't care.

		frivolously (the symposium is over!),
				Kay
-- 
6'2", dark short hair, blue eyes, bisexual and horny as ....
Kay Dekker, Dept of Industrial Design, Coventry University, Coventry UK
37 Old Winnings Road, Keresley Village, Coventry   |B0 f t+ g++ k++! s+ e r p!
Phone: +44 203 838668 (work) +44 203 337865 (home) |Deflowerer-of-innocents
From: berninge@cs.purdue.edu (James Berninger)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Soc.Motss.*
Date: 17 Dec 1992 04:16:07 -0500
Organization: Department of Computer Science, Purdue University
NNTP-Posting-Host: alice.cs.purdue.edu

twpierce@unix.amherst.edu (Tim Pierce) writes:
>berninge@cs.purdue.edu (James Berninger) writes:
>>Some of us don't know
>>who this "Rob Bernardo" person was, and, no offense, don't care.  I
>>nearly doubled the size of my KILL file within two days after he
>>died because of various people posting the "news" (all under
>>different subject lines), or giving their own testimonials.
>Poor buby.  Your disk quota must be creaking.
Not everyone has disk quotas (I don't).  However, not everyone reads
news at 9600 baud+, either (I don't, on occasion, and I have to
avoid soc.motss from dialup just because it takes so long).  For
that matter, not everyone uses a news reader that works so
efficiently that KILL files are useful -- just ask arnold zwicky
about that one (and leave me out of it when you do).  My point is
that in order for me to enjoy soc.motss as much as possible, I have
to put a fair amount of work and time into it -- much moreso than
with any other newsgroup I read.

>>Personally, I'd like to see a group like talk.aids.support for this,
>>since I'd really rather not see HIV or AIDS associated with the gay
>>community any more than absolutely necessary
>Even had talk.aids.support existed at the time of Rob's death, this
>material would not have gone to that group.  Rob was so intimately
>tied to the soc.motss community, your own ignorance notwithstanding,
>that it would have been ludicrous and, I think, disrespectful to try
>to move that discussion out of this group.  Your KILL file will live.
Perhaps, and I certainly don't mean any disrepect to anyone by what
I said.  I realize that the gay community has a certain degree of
spirituality, and that, at times, is the only thing that brings us
together.  I guess what I'm taking offense at is the use of the
newsgroup as a tool of the "regulars" (dare I say "elite") -- there
are quite a few messages I see posted that seem appropriate for a
"chat" between them, and there's no real reason I should have to
read these things.

  ______   Jim Berninger: berninge@cs.purdue.edu  |     Hate is not     ______
  \ \  /     Green Lantern Fan, Extraordinaire    |   a Family Value.   \ \  /
   \/\/   "I don't *wanna* play Leona Helmsley!"  | - - - - - - - - - -  \/\/
    \/        -- Elmyra Duff, Tiny Toons Xmas     |  Boycott Colorado.    \/
Xref: sparky soc.motss:52678 soc.bi:16658
From: owen@autodesk.com (D. Owen Rowley)
Newsgroups: soc.motss,soc.bi
Subject: Re: The MOW Platform (was Re: NOTICE - Details...)
Date: 16 Dec 92 20:08:43 GMT
Followup-To: soc.motss

In article <1glup0INNi50@agate.berkeley.edu>, mlloyd@ocf.berkeley.edu (M. Lloyd) writes:
> [soc.bi re-added to Newsgroups; Owen, I suggest you either limit your
> posts to soc.motss, or cease sending to both groups with followup set to
> one for no clear reason]

uhm..
I use vnews, and when multiple newsgroups are listed the software 
requires me to set a follow up group. I set it for the newsgroup
I read since setting it to groups I don't read ( like soc.bi) would be
rude.
Is that a clear enough reason for you?

> owen@autodesk.com (D. Owen Rowley) writes:
> >jakec@ralvmm.vnet.ibm.com writes:
> >> with respect to my actual support of the platform, i
> >> suppose it helps to understand that the same reasoning used
> >> by racists, sexists, and anti-abortionists is also applied
> >> to gay civil rights.  what does the statement "no one is
> >> free until we are *all* free" mean?  ...

> >Quota based anti-discrimination legislation limits individual freedom.
> >Do you see how reverse discrimination codified into law flys in the face
> >of the NOIFUWAAF position?
 
> Well, yes, I do, for one.  However, I also see NIFUWAF (to make the
> acronym pronounceable, however risibly) as a pretty weak simplification.
> Freedom is poorly defined, and the statement is unverifiable speculation
> anyway.  We've been around this mulberry bush before, but I want to
> reiterate that I think "freedom" is not an absolute goal, or an
> inalienable, all-or-nothing right.  Neither NIFUWAF, nor similar
> slogans, nor libertarianism for that matter, seem to me to provide a
> sufficiently realsitic political view in general, or queer political
> view in particular, because they all (IMHO) take insufficient account of
> human nature and group dynamics.

I was using it as an example for jake. I don't disagree with much of
what you say here BTW.

> Quotas are also not at issue, as far as I can observe, through the
> majority of queer circles.  It's a false projection of the intent of
> anti-discrimination legislation.  Quotas have been applied to other
> groups in other situations, and I have no intention of getting into the
> correctness of that in this group.  However, I feel quotas are entirely
> inappropriate for queers; I think most other queers agree with that, and
> I don't see any sizeable group calling for them.

again it was one example.
It seems to me that some Liberal types use the *No one is free* position
as a slogan, while hypocritically ignoring it as a principle. I believe in
having principled positions, in this case my principled position is that
I don't support legislated discrimination against others in order to remedy 
discrimination. I do support legislative efforts to remedy discrimination
that do not create more discrimination. 

LUX ./. owen


--
D. Owen Rowley {uunet,fernwood,sun}!autodesk!owen

  " It will be a cold March 17th that I celebrate the imposition of
	Romes rule, on Pagan Ireland. Erin go ppphhhhhttttttt! "
From: Jim-Guy@cup.portal.com (James Lawrence Blastic)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Remakes of Songs from Youth (was Re: Gay Baby Saints)
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 92 05:22:17 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
  <168B911939.TMCCART3@ua1vm.ua.edu>
  <1992Dec11.022906.15697@leland.Stanford.EDU>
  <Bz3Muu.8CL@hpuerca.atl.hp.com>

>In <1992Dec11.022906.15697@leland.Stanford.EDU> prufrock@leland.Stanford.EDU (Scot N Gib
s
>on) writes:
>
>>Aw, come on Tracey.  I still see Duran Duran on the "Classic Oldies"
>>Marathons all the time.
>
>Which makes me wonder -- how many people start to feel their age when
>they hear remakes of songs they knew when they were young?

Now I *REALLY* feel my age (42)

>I finally realized I'd reached an adult age (although I'm in my
>thirties I *refuse* to say I've grown up :-) when I first heard
>Club Noveau's version of "Lean on Me".

I was in my  30's #@! How Ancient @#! when Duran Duran was popular not
"Classic Oldies" but still consider myself young.  :)

  Jim-Guy               +------------------------------------+
                        |                                    |
                        |"...and may you stay forever young."|
                        |                                    |
                        +------------------------------------+
Xref: sparky soc.motss:52847 ne.motss:639
From: anthropo@carina.unm.edu (Dominick V. Zurlo)
Newsgroups: soc.motss,ne.motss
Subject: Re: Height Discrimination (was Re: Ken Reeves, ...)
Date: 17 Dec 92 20:45:11 GMT
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque

In article <1992Dec16.190415.25711@oracle.us.oracle.com> dgilly@us.oracle.com (Daniel Gilly) writes:
>In article <t=g21t+@rpi.edu> buckmr@vccsouth15.its.rpi.edu 
>    (Ron Buckmire) writes:
>
>>About Ken Reeves---is he single? :-)
>>Any pictures for the motss archives?
>>Height of 6' 1" sounds like a good start...
>           ^^^^^
>
>Hey!  What's all this "heightist" crap?  I'm tired of people who
>belittle the vertically challenged by elevating the attraction
>of being tall!  The gay male media are overlooking short men!
>This is the height of shortsightedness.   BTW,  :-) :-) :-)

Oh fine, here you go talking about being belittled by these references
to height and you go and insult the visually impaired!! Short-sighted 
indeed!  WHo's being "overlooked" here.....:->)
>
>Daniel,
>5'4" tall and feeling mischievous

Dominick,
Dressed as Santa and feeling full of cheer, and wish I was full elsewhere
at the moment...Any offers....
From: Minotaur@cup.portal.com (A Frank Swilling)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Bert and Ernie
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 92 18:11:35 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)

Daniel Bidwa sez:

>The reason Ren and Stimpy has so few episodes is
>because the main brain behind all of it (John(?) last-name-starts-with-a-K
>-but-I-can't-spell-or-pronounce-it-correctly-so-forget-it) was such a

That's John Kricfalusi.

Frank
Minotaur@cup.portal.com
From: roger@quantime.co.uk (Roger Phillips)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Call/Fax/Write Fernandez
Date: 14 Dec 92 22:02:49 GMT
Reply-To: roger@quantime.co.uk (Roger Phillips)
Organization: Quantime Ltd, London (software for market research)

In article <1992Dec13.071110.10910@netcom.com>,
cjlee@netcom.com (Caroline Jean Lee) writes:
> My memory is fuzzy on this one, and I keep thinking of a story about a
> girl who has two daddies (written in Europe somewhere), but I am
> positive that I have read the book you are looking for.

The book which caused exactly the same debate here in the UK a few years ago
(and which sounds like what Jojo was describing)
was called something like "Jenny Lives With Eric and Martin".

Does anyone here remember how that controversy ended?

-- 
Roger Phillips                            roger@quantime.co.uk
"*Poot, Marcel* (b Vilvoorde, 7 May 1901). Belgian composer."
-- Grove Concise Dictionary of Music (1988)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: tom@flood.com (Tom Chatt)
Subject: Re: State laws regarding same-sex marriage
Keywords: marriage legal gay
Organization: The Flood Group, Inc.  Torrance, Ca.
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 92 11:29:58 GMT

hutch@ibeam.intel.com (Steve Hutchison) writes:
| ecl@cbnewsj.cb.att.com (Evelyn C. Leeper) writes:
| 
| +Actually, it's Article IV: "Full faith and credit shall be given in
| +each state to the public acts, records and judicial recordings of
| +every other state."  Later it goes on to say, "The citizens of each
| +state shall be entitled to all privileges and immunities of citizens in
| +the several states."
| 
| Anyone know whether this could be used to assault Colorado 2?
| 
| Seems to me that denying priveleges that are part of assumed rights
| elsewhere should be in violation of that Article.

Sorry, no dice. The full faith and credit clause does not by any
stretch of the imagination imply that all states laws must be
the same. Otherwise, you could argue just as easily that since
Measure 2 was adopted by Colorado, the FF&C clause means that it
is in effect in all 50 states.

The case which City of Boulder et al. have filed in federal court
relies on the equal protection clause of the 14th amendment, on
"vagueness" (a due process claim, I think), and violations of home
rule guarantees in the Colorado state constitution.

The home rule claim seems completely lame IMHO (federal court has
no business adjudicating matters of state law; moreover since 
Measure 2 was a constitutional amendment, this claim is asking the
court to find the constitution unconstitutional -- a rather
untenable position). The vagueness claim will be hard to press,
especially since we haven't seen how it gets applied. The
equal protection route is probably the best bet, *especially*
since the measure bars homosexuals but not heterosexuals from
bringing a discrimination claim. Even so, odds are not great.
It's unlikely that the court would recognize homosexuals as a
"suspect class" which triggers certain judicial tests which
often strike down laws, although it's possible that access to
the courts could be recognized as a "fundamental interest",
which also triggers the same harsh scrutiny likely to strike
down the law. Lacking either of those, we only get the
"rational basis" test, which is a much softer doctrine, and
most often upholds laws. The law is definitely vulnerable,
but it's a tough call what the court might do with it.

-- 
Tom Chatt                        \   Don't take offense, take action.
Internet: tom@flood.com           \    Speak up. When we remain silent,
UUCP: ...!uunet!flood!tom        / \     we oppress ourselves.
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: cornell@inoc.dl.nec.com (C.J.K.)
Subject: Re: Compatible Systems of Boulder's Anti-discrimination policy
Reply-To: cornell@syl.dl.nec.com
Organization: Not very organized
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 19:13:27 GMT

cjones@physci.ucla.edu (Chad Jones) writes:

>I got this note from Compatible Systems of Boulder after I sent them a
>note that I wouldn't buy from them because of Amendment 2.    It also
>includes the text of Amendment 2 (they must be getting a lot of these
>notes to have it so handy!)  I've almost changed my mind, because they
>have an anti-discrimination policy.  If anyone has a reason why I still
>shouldn't buy from them, let me know.  

Of course it is still the choice that you need and want to make but...
Colorado's amendment is being used as an example as what other states
can do and how to create laws.  The bad effect that this has on companies
that don't agree with the legislation is part of that example that needs
to be shown.  It encourages the companies and cities to not look the
other way because they have a work-around solution for their own good
which does not change the oppressive law.  In the case you cited, it
could encourage them to be even more active in repealling the amendment.


I don't know how many times in the last month I've heard things in
articles, on the news, etc. to the effect of "Denver, Boulder, and Aspen
voted against the measure and they already have legislation in
effect to protect rights on basis of sexual orientation."  Well, I
suspect that the economy of these three cities has a large effect on
the state as a whole.  If these cities are not damaged by this oppression
that will be enacted at the beginning of next year, then the state
(and other states) do not see the impact of their oppression.  Also,
it these cities to not remove their sexual orientation clause from
their books they still have no effect because of the amendment.  If
they choose to act as though the new amendment wasn't really there,
then that's good but they still need to be reminded that the
amendment is actually there and they could be rewarded by making a
strong effort.

--- cjk
Xref: sparky soc.motss:52101 alt.politics.homosexuality:7910
From: smithw@col.hp.com (Walter Smith)
Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.politics.homosexuality
Subject: Re: Call/Fax/Write Fernandez
Date: 12 Dec 1992 23:10:16 GMT
Organization: Colorado Springs IT Center
NNTP-Posting-Host: fajita19.cs.itc.hp.com

mls@cbnewsm.cb.att.com (mike.siemon) writes:
> In article <1gdl85INN1qe@hp-col.col.hp.com> smithw@col.hp.com (Walter Smith)
> writes:
> > Do we need to teach "daddy
> >and his roommate sleep together" to teach tolerance? 
> 
> Short answer: yes.

Let me look at this from another angle; do we have to teach that it
is OK/normal/natural/<insert your choice of words>, or can it be 
viewed as not OK/normal/natural/<insert your choice of words>,
as long as we are taught to respect a person's right to be different
and unique without being persecuted for it? Do we have to believe 
what you want us to believe as long as differences are tolerated, 
or must our thoughts be 'fixed' to view homosexuality as OK? 

Walter Smith
smithw@cs.itc.hp.com

Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: twpierce@unix.amherst.edu (Tim Pierce)
Subject: Re: Indications of homosexuality 
Organization: Elitist Usenet Administrators, Turkey Division
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 18:05:03 GMT

In article <thaaang.724051809@cwis> thaaang@cwis.unomaha.edu (John Dorrance) writes:

>I'm reminded of an article in the Advocate about (gasp!) bisexuality;
>it featured a picture of 3 white people, 2 men and a woman. The main
>man, who was hairless, didn't tweak me, but the other one!!! Nice,
>kinda thin body, dark straight hair down to his butt! And a van dyke
>and moustache waxed into curlicues. Oh, I still drool...

A new kind of bisexuality!  Bears and twinks!  How delightfully
*perverse* ...

-- 
____ Tim Pierce                / 
\  / twpierce@unix.amherst.edu /               Rocks say goodbye.
 \/ (BITnet: TWPIERCE@AMHERST) / 
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: heath@iceblink.cs.jhu.edu (Dave Heath)
Subject: Re: Roseanne and The "Faggot" Insult
Organization: Johns Hopkins Computer Science Department, Baltimore, MD
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 02:01:11 GMT

DLM writes:

>The great thing about the Tonight Show appearance is that the musical guest
>was kd lang! 

Aargh, and I missed it!! This is why we need soc.motss.info!

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"STOP! Good heavens! Too much basil will make that pesto bitter!!" -Homoman
Dave Heath                                                 heath@cs.jhu.edu
From: wolfe@wolves.Durham.NC.US (G. Wolfe Woodbury)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: A reply to Mr. Pierce (was Re: PHOBE ALERT: That XX Louis Sheldon...)
Date: 14 Dec 92 01:26:54 GMT
Organization: Red Wolfe @ The Wolves Den
X-Md4-Signature: 5f3b55fec048cd1b82c3c85db144d712

In <1992Dec11.024253.25058@spdcc.com> dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer) writes:
>>
>Let's hope you were as offended as the women who had to read "bitch" in
>the first place.

	Oh, poor little Steve, let's not have anyone post anything the
least bit controversial or disparaging of his opinions, so he doesn't
have to be offended.

	Or have we forgotten that the freedom we have to speak depends
on defending the freedom to speak for EVERYONE.

	Better to put up with a bit of discomfort than to submit to
tyranny -- whether the tyranny be of the "fundies" or of the
"politically correct."
-- 
G. Wolfe Woodbury @ The Wolves Den, Durham NC	[This site is NOT affiliated  ]
wolfe@wolves.durham.nc.us			[with Duke University! Idiots!]
UUCP: ...!duke!wolves!wolfe      <Standard Disclaimers apply>
    Above All, we celebrate!  --Celebrate the Circle, Statement of Purpose.
Xref: sparky soc.motss:52177 talk.politics.misc:64109
From: dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer)
Newsgroups: soc.motss,talk.politics.misc
Subject: Re: Dyke to head HHS
Date: 14 Dec 92 03:27:53 GMT
Article-I.D.: spdcc.1992Dec14.032753.9103
Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting, Cambridge MA

In article <tbj2bxk@rpi.edu> buckmr@vccsouth19.its.rpi.edu (Ron Buckmire) writes:
>Dose anyone else have any info on Mrs. Shalala's sexual orientation?

It seems to be pretty common knowledge in my circles.  I was talking with
a friend originally from Madison last night, and he asked about whether
I thought she would eventually come out, and this was without having
mentioned this discussion on the net.  Of course, neither of us knew
about Ken Reeves, Mayor of Cambridge.  Go figure.


-- 
Steve Dyer
dyer@ursa-major.spdcc.com aka {ima,harvard,rayssd,linus,m2c}!spdcc!dyer
Xref: sparky soc.motss:52162 talk.politics.misc:64102
From: nelson@reed.edu (Nelson Minar)
Newsgroups: soc.motss,talk.politics.misc
Subject: Re: Dyke to head HHS
Date: 14 Dec 92 01:40:19 GMT
Article-I.D.: reed.1992Dec14.014019.5055
Reply-To: nelson@reed.edu (Nelson Minar)
Organization: Reed College, Portland, OR

In article <tbj2bxk@rpi.edu> buckmr@vccsouth19.its.rpi.edu (Ron Buckmire) writes:
>Does anyone else have any info on Mrs. Shalala's sexual orientation?

well, I haven't slept with her.
                __
nelson@reed.edu \/    A bright light in the sky, like God taking a photograph
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: steven@cray.com (Steven Levine)
Subject: Check Your Local Paper Re:  Inaugural
Organization: Cray Research, Inc.
Date: 15 Dec 92 13:01:58 CST

Yesterday's press conference about Clinton's Inaugural Parade
on January 20 included the news that one of the groups
performing at the Parade will be the "Lesbian and Gay
Band of America" (sic).

(Actually, although it is true that we will be
performing "at the parade," we will not be marching --
we will be stationed alongside the parade route, performing
for parade spectators.)

Today's Minneapolis Star Tribune included a small article
in their "Nation" section that included this news.  This
leads some of us to think that the story was picked up in
other papers around the country -- and perhaps the world,
who knows?.

I ask soc.motss readers, as a favor, to check your local
papers today for atricles about the Inauguration that
mention the Lesbian and Gay band.  We are trying
to collect these articles for our records.

If you find an article are willing to cut it out
and send it to me, please send me email (so I can avoid
asking more than one person to go to the trouble).
So far I have the article from the Minneapolis and the
article in today's Washington Post.

Thanks for any help you can offer here.

[More news when I have the chance, particularly on how
this came about -- and soc.motss was a part of it.  Thanks
Greg and Julian.]

-Steven Levine
 steven@cray.com



Newsgroups: soc.motss