HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: bible@iastate.edu (Anthony E Bible)
Subject: posting from misc.jobs.offered
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, IA
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 18:53:35 GMT

	I apologize if this violates some net-rule of which I am unaware, but I
saw this ad in misc.jobs.offered and thought it might be of interest to readers
of this group.  I know nothing about the job that is not in the ad, and I have
no relationship to anyone associated with it.

Regards,
tony
=============================================================================
Article 26134 of misc.jobs.offered:
From: Garbanzo!lisa_christine@under.mind.ORG
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
Subject: Language
Date: 07 Jan 93 17:20:00 -0500
Organization: Garbanzo BBS -- Santa Rosa, CA
X-newsreader: Fortress v1f-75

        HI!  I have decided that I want to learn to program on my 
computer but I lack the knowledge to how to program.  I want to 
learn all kinds of language: C, Pascal, Forth, QBASIC, and you name 
them.  Is there a good program and a good book that it will teach me
how to program??  Leave e-mail to me and we will talk.   

--
via Fortress Gateway at uumind.mind.ORG
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
From: bible@iastate.edu (Anthony E Bible)
Subject: Re: Documenting
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, IA
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 16:01:23 GMT

In article <1492@eouk9.eoe.co.uk> ahaley@eoe.co.uk (Andrew Haley) writes:
>Mike Haas (mikeh@starnine.com) says that "screens" (by which I presume
>he means blocks used for source code) are viewed by [users of other
>languages] as evidence that Forth will never be a modern language.
>
>Some people may believe this, but it flies in the face of historical
>fact; BLOCK was an innovation.  Every computer OS around at the time
>(1970) supported text files, but Charles Moore invented a different
>method of accessing source text and other data, not because he was
>"old fashioned" but because he thought that he had a better system.
>

	I'm mildly curious about your contention that Moore purposely chose
blocks over file systems because he thought they were better.  Is this from
Moore, or is it your opinion?  I had read that Moore originally developed Forth
as a language that he could use on a number of different machines rather than
having to learn a multitude of languages and their variants amongst
manufacturers.  I either read or inferred that, for the same reason, blocks 
were used in order to avoid interfacing with a variety of different file 
systems.


Regards,
tony
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
Subject: Re: e-forth has no DOES> !!!
From: mentink@wronz.org.nz
Date: 6 Jan 93 11:07:21 +1300

 

Julian Noble writes,

>Has anyone added DOES> to e-forth? I presume that with study I could
>do it, but if someone else already has, I would rather not waste the
>time. This is a time-critical question, as I am trying to put together
>a Forth diskette for beginners, to be given away free at the Forth-
>coming ACM meeting in Indiana. If Borland can give away large boxes of
>C++ for free, why can't we do Forth?

Hi,

I have added the word DOES> to my eforth some time-ago, you have to also
modify CREATE to make it work. The source is ::

  ;************** CREATE .. DOES> definer words **************************

;   CREATE    ( -- ; <string> )
;        Compile a new dict entry without allocating code space.
;        Modified with NOP for DOES> word use.

        %COLON    6,'CREATE',CREAT
        DC    HEADER,COMPI,NOP
        DC    COMPI,DOVAR,EXIT
        
;   does>  ( -- )
;       Low level DOES> word.

        %COLON    5,'does>',DOEST
        DC    LAST,AT,NAMET,DUPP
        DC    DOLIT,BRAN,SWAP,DOLIT,4,PLUS,STORE,DUPP
        DC    HERE,SWAP,DOLIT,6,PLUS,STORE
        DC    COMPI,DOLIT,DOLIT,8,PLUS,COMMA
        DC    COMPI,BRAN,EXIT 

;   DOES>  ( -- )
;       High level DOES> word. Executes at compile time

        %COLON    IMEDD+5,'DOES>',DOES
        DC    DOLIT,DOEST,COMMA
        DC    DOLIT,DOLIT,COMMA
        DC    HERE,DOLIT,6,PLUS,COMMA
        DC    DOLIT,COMMA,COMMA
        DC    DOLIT,EXIT,COMMA,EXIT

  ;**************************************************************************
 
>By the way, does anyone know why they use FOR...NEXT rather than DO...LOOP
>in e-forth? Is this what ANSI is leading us to?

As far as I can tell FOR..NEXT is slightly faster than a DO..LOOP construct.

I hope this helps ....
Regards

Bernie Mentink
Christchurch
New Zealand

email: mentink@wronz.org.nz

---------- People reveal more by their questions than by their answers ---

 

From: ForthNet@willett.pgh.pa.us (ForthNet articles from GEnie)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
Subject: Forth on the Intel 80386
Date: 10 Jan 93 14:15:25 GMT
Article-I.D.: willett.4234.UUL1.3#5129
Organization: EIEI-U

Category 7,  Topic 27
Message 34        Sun Jan 10, 1993
ELLIOTT.C                    at 08:52 EST
 
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 Date: 01-08-93 (22:20)
   To: B-LEE [B0B]
 From: RAY DUNCAN
 Subj: CHOOSING A FORTH

   >is there any 80386 Forth system that can metacompile to a 386
   >target with the following features...

 LMI sells a metacompiler that runs on DOS and compiles a 32-bit
 ROMable 386 protected mode stand-alone target.  Full source code
 for the target is included as well as optional ROMable floating
 point and optional ROMable 386/387 assembler.

 For more information contact Laboratory Microsystems at 310-306-
 7412 or FAX to 310-301-0761. ---
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  * PostLink(tm) v1.04  GRAPEVINE (#318) : RelayNet(tm) Hub
-----
This message came from GEnie via willett.  You *cannot* reply to the author
using e-mail.  Please post a follow-up article, or use any instructions
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Report problems to: dwp@willett.pgh.pa.us
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
From: Nick_Janow@mindlink.bc.ca (Nick Janow)
Subject: Re: Documenting
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 19:36:00 GMT

dwp+@cs.cmu.edu (Doug Philips) writes:

> How about:  The fact that many still argue over screens vs. files is a
> statement as to why Forth will never be accepted by the mainstream?
>
> Is Forth so rigid as to require one and disallow the other?

No, but using code optimized for screens rather than readability as an
example of "good Forth", or even "what Forth looks like", might turn away
potential new users.  It might be better if the public image of Forth used
the formatting and file handling that most programmers are familiar with.  If
those new Forth'ers then looked deeper and decided that screens would suit
their personality/purpose/style better, then they are welcome to use it.

I doubt that potential Forth'ers will be turned off upon seeing regular file
systems.  Does anyone think the opposite is true?

Some potential Forth'ers might be turned off by seeing heated "screens vs
files" composing half the net traffic.  :(

--

Nick_Janow@mindlink.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
From: peterd@pjd.dev.cdx.mot.com (Peter Desnoyers)
Subject: Re: Documenting
Organization: Motorola Codex, Canton, Massachusetts
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 14:20:33 GMT

dwp+@cs.cmu.edu (Doug Philips) writes:

>In article <C0CsnE.CrC@starnine.com> mikeh@starnine.com (Mike Haas) writes:
>+They [screens] are also incredibly wasteful...
>[Tedious list of the first line "documentation" for a group of screens
>elided.  -dwp]
>+Simple.  Each is in it's own file.  Clean, clear, and no waste of space.

>Whoa a minute here.  Most OS's (those that have EOL characters), also have
>file systems with allocations in units of sectors (or multiple-sector
>unitss), and bunches of tiny files will waste a lot of space.  If this is
>really an issue, then let's be clear about it.

On most UNIX machines, the smallest fragment that can be allocated is
between 1/2K and 2K. (1/8 to 1/4 of a block, with block size 4K or 8K)
In addition, some Unix file systems can store tiny files (e.g. <60
bytes) in the directory entry - i.e. for free. [see the recent
discussion in comp.os.linux.]

Screens are *not* more efficient with regards to storage than file
systems. 

[besides, I go batty trying to work on a 24-line display, never mind
16 lines. 65 lines is what fits on a sheet of paper, and it's what god
meant us to read code in chunks of :-)]

				Peter Desnoyers
--
From: eaker@ukulele.crd.ge.com (Chuck Eaker)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
Subject: Re: Forth Standard Debate
Date: 8 Jan 93 14:59:50 GMT
Organization: GE Corporate R&D Center

In article <1ihl5vINNr1o@life.ai.mit.edu>, mikc@hal.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Mike Coughlin) writes:
|>   If you have more than one standard, it seems to me that you
|>   have no standard at all.

This is ludicrous. Users of FORTRAN (1966, 1977, 1990), C (1
de facto with 1 on the way), Ada (1980 with another on the way),
and COBOL (1968, 1974, and one on the way), will assure you that
two or more standards are infinitely better than none.

-- 
Chuck Eaker / P.O. Box 8, K-1 3C12 / Schenectady, NY 12301 USA
eaker@crd.ge.com        eaker@crdgw1.UUCP       (518) 387-5964
From: nick@sw.stratus.com (Nicolas Tamburri)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
Subject: Re: Documenting
Date: 11 Jan 93 14:40:54 GMT
Organization: Stratus Computer, Inc.
NNTP-Posting-Host: osa.sw.stratus.com

In article <4235.UUL1.3#5129@willett.pgh.pa.us>, ForthNet@willett.pgh.pa.us (ForthNet articles from GEnie) writes:
> Category 3,  Topic 3
> Message 52        Sun Jan 10, 1993
> H.SIMMONS                    at 13:38 EST
>  
> [Satisfactory explanation of why indentation in Good Forth is not as important
>  as in other languages deleted.]
>
> The original question was not from a Forth user trying to provoke a flame 
> war.  It was from someone experienced in customary languages.  It is as 
> though a German or Russian speaker asked why English speakers don't use  the
> same phrasing patterns with which he is familiar.  Some of the  responses have
> been of the tenor of "those native Forth speakers were  illiterate; when we
> better trained (read more intelligent) express our  ideas in Forth, we use the
> `correct' phrasing we learned from `C' or  BASIC."
> 
> Let's agree that many people are used to page-long functions where 
> indentation is required for human understanding.  But let's also agree  that
> other ways of expressing code need not be condemned until they have  been
> tried by fire and been found wanting. 

Since I guess I'm one of the people this response is aimed at, I'd like to state
for the record that I in no way meant to imply that any user of Forth is in any
way 'less intelligent' than me, a causual (and lately lapsed,) user at best.
I make no apologies for my explanation of why Forth source style has
evolved the way it has.  I don't believe I have ever deviated from a purely
historical account of the way I believe it happened.  Having worked with screens
on a limited space device, I know I tried to cram as much into one line as
possible.  I don't believe I've ever been judgemental about screen, or file, users.

The original user expressed frustration that he had to reformat a Forth CODE
definition into something he could understand.  Even though it only had one
control structure,  he still had to take drastic measures to understand its flow.
Screens or files, I still believe that CODE words should be written one
instruction per line, with reasonable comments interspersed as needed, not
necessarily one per line.  This is accepted wisdom from before Forth was around.
It is not just a matter of people being used to the page long functions of
conventional languages as opposed to Forth's superiorly factored words.

Forth has a reputation for being hard to understand.  Here we have a new user
who has a specific example of why this perception persists.  We should at least
offer an explanation of why his objection evolved,  rather than just dismiss it
off-hand as a 'it works for us,  if you don't like it, go back to C' reply.  In a
perfect world we might even learn from his question.

								/nt
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
From: iwatters@cix.compulink.co.uk (Ian Watters)
Subject: Re: Documenting                         
Reply-To: iwatters@cix.compulink.co.uk
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 00:21:00 +0000

Mike (who might learn to find the delete line key on his wonderful text
system <grin>):
> you don't realize it, but you might as well be arguing for piston-powered
> airplanes being better than jets.

But for *some* applications, piston-power *is* better than jet!  (A jet
powered micro-light or crop-sprayer, anyone?)

Similarly, while good text-based systems are very very useful, blocks take
minimal resources to implement in comparison.  For the computer version of
the micro-light, for example, blocks are the way to go.

  //\/\/  iwatters@cix.compulink.co.uk

"We would have come earlier, but your husband wasn't dead then."

>>>MATRIX version  1.21e
From: mikc@hal.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Mike Coughlin)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
Subject: Re: Forth Standard Debate
Date: 7 Jan 93 15:20:41 GMT
Organization: /etc/organization
NNTP-Posting-Host: hal.gnu.ai.mit.edu

In article <jax.726119739@well.sf.ca.us> jax@well.sf.ca.us (Jack J. Woehr) writes:
>
>	mike ..
>
>	your posting is so massive i fear we will weary the backbone
>servers if we go on like this!
>
   It certainly is easy to write reams about Forth and the Forth standard.
I try to make my messages smaller, but that takes a lot of time and rewrites.
 
>	let me apologize for scolding you. you sounded so negative,
>like you were saying, "Forth really has problems, and this ANS Standard
>is *really* going to *** it up."
>
   Actually the whole computer industry has problems. What makes me so 
negative is that I don't think publishing the proposed ANSI standard will 
make the industry mend its ways and use Forth where it would work so well.
 
>	secondly, you say that standards don't matter in embedded
>control. in my practice, this is utterly false. 83-Standard is
>currently the most maintainable (i.e., fire your programmer and hire
>one a year later) dialect of Forth.
  
   I can't see the reason for this. Why would a properly documented Forth
program written to the 1983 standard be more manageable than a properly
documented Forth written with a system that did not follow a formal 
standard, like Pygmy or even (gasp) fig-Forth? Perhaps there would be
an advantage with a badly documented Forth program, but its better to
throw out badly documented code (in any langauge) and start all over from
the written specs (if there are any) than to try to salvage the wreckage.
Is a formal standard an attempt to avoid writing commented code?
   Once a Forth program is started it changes the language so it sets
its own standard. The key is to document the variations of common Forth
words that are used as well as explaining what each part of the program
does so the next programmer can understand it. I've been told that there
does exist Forth source that is clearly documented, but I've never seen
it. The code I have seen published would be greatly improved by better
commenting. It would not be improved by following a different Forth
standard.
>
>	taste and see for yourself how sweet it is. program in
>dpANS Forth and see how neat it is!
> 
   I have heard of three versions of Forth that try to follow the X3J14
proposal. One of them runs on the Amiga, and I don't have an Amiga.
(But I do want to get a copy and read it). The others run on PC clones,
and my PC/AT clone has very uncooperative disk drives. I do have a
copy of e-Forth; I'll understand it better when I get it running. So 
I'll have to put off trying dpANS Forth for a while.

-- 
   Michael Coughlin             mikc@gnu.ai.mit.edu
From: mylai@cs.uh.edu (Ming-Yung Lai)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
Subject: Commercial FORTH Info Needed
Date: 6 Jan 1993 15:57:31 GMT
Organization: Computer Science dept.,  Univ. of Houston (Main Campus)
NNTP-Posting-Host: rodin.cs.uh.edu

 Hi, I like to know is there any commercial Forth can run on the
 following RTOS:( on 386/486 host) 
  1. LynxOS
  2. OS-9000
  3. VRTX

 Or is there any commercial Forth on 386/486 host meta-compile to
 386 target with the following support:
  1. Pre-empty multitasking
  2. Debugger (Real time) 
  3. Better has In-Circuit Emulator
  4. The host can build on MSDOS, but the target must be native or
     built on BIOS is acceptable. ( because of the BIOS cost, its not
     too good) 
  5. Better roylty free. 
  6. Source included.

 Thank you. 
Newsgroups: comp.lang.visual
From: af734@yfn.ysu.edu (Andy Klein)
Subject: VB Win 2.0 Question
Organization: Youngstown State University/Youngstown Free-Net
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 22:38:31 GMT


     I'm using Visual BASIC Standard Edition v2.0 and I've run into
the following dilemma.  I'm trying to create an array of string by
concatenating two other values together, but would like the two
columns of data to each be left justified.  However, the font that
I am using contains letters of different widths.  For instance,
assume an array of strings called Names$() and an array of integers
called Num%() contain the following made-up data:
 
     Names$(1) = "Samuel"          Num%(1) = 15
     Names$(2) = "Richard"         Num%(2) = 3
     Names$(3) = "Al"              Num%(3) = 221
     Names$(4) = "James"           Num%(4) = 54
     Names$(5) = "Bob"             Num%(5) = 11
 
I would then like to create a second string array called Results$()
that contained the following:
 
     Results$(1) = "Samuel   15"
     Results$(2) = "Richard  3"
     Results$(3) = "Al       221"
     Results$(4) = "James    54"
     Results$(5) = "Bob      11"
 
My problem is that since the characters in MS-Windows aren't all
the same pixel width, the column of numbers is not vertically lined
up correctly when I print the results.  Is there a way to get the
second column of numbers to be lined up?  Thanks,
Andy Klein
Newsgroups: comp.lang.visual
From: hclam@cuse1.se.cuhk.hk (LAM Ho Cheong)
Subject: Algorithm Animation
Organization: Faculty of Engineering, The Chinese U. of Hong Kong
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 04:25:30 GMT

   I'm researching on the topic of Algorithm Animation.
   Does anyone out there have research interest in this
   topic?  Or, could you share your experience with me
   if you have worked on this topic before?  Please send
   e-mail to me at hclam@se.cuhk.hk.

HC
From: hahn@sunshine.labs.tek.com (Doug Hahn)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.visual
Subject: inquiry
Date: 4 Jan 93 19:31:40 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Software Technology Research Lab, Tektronix Inc.


I am interested in doing some research and self-education in visual
programming languages.  Does anyone have any on-line bibliographic
information that I could start from.  This could save me a lot of time
as far as tracking things down (I hope).  I can offer to summarize
replies on this group as well as any extensions to the list as I
progress.

[ I would prefer annotated biblio info, but even simply
  titles/authors/publication will save me a little time ]

--
 | Doug Hahn, CRL, Tektronix, PO Box 500/MS 50-662, Beaverton, OR 97077
 | (503) 627-6419    ...!tektronix!crl.labs!hahn  hahn@crl.labs.tek.com
--
Newsgroups: comp.lang.visual
From: dalheime@rzdspc17.informatik.uni-hamburg.de (Matthias "Kalle" Dalheimer)
Subject: Re: CWEB and WEB
Organization: University of Hamburg, FRG
Date:  6 Jan 93 08:35:27 GMT

hrook@descartes.uwaterloo.ca (Harvey Rook) writes:

>I'm trying to get my hands on the CWEB or WEB meta languages. Can anyone
>give me any pointers as to where I can find them?

>Thanks, Harvey Rook

CWEB or WEB should be included in any TeX distribution tape or disk set. E.g.
the emTeX package (written by Eberhard Mattes) includes it, too.

Virtually, Kalle
From: neeri@iis.ethz.ch (Matthias Neeracher)
Subject: Re: CWEB and WEB
Organization: Integrated Systems Laboratory, ETH, Zurich
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 13:23:46 GMT

In article <C0EE93.39K@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu>, hrook@descartes.uwaterloo.ca (Harvey Rook) writes:

> I'm trying to get my hands on the CWEB or WEB meta languages. Can anyone
> give me any pointers as to where I can find them?

You might want to try Spidery WEB, which is a language independent WEB,
available (among many other places) at:

05 Host princeton.edu

    Location: /pub/spiderweb.tar.Z
            File -rw-r--r-- 00448001 1991 Feb 19 00:00:00 GMT spiderweb.tar.Z

The two WEBs you mentioned should be included in every TeX distribution,
just fire up your archie and search (exact) for TeX-3.14.

Matthias

-----
Matthias Neeracher                                      neeri@iis.ethz.ch
  "And that's why I am going to turn this world upside down, and make
   of it a fire so *bright* that someone real will notice"
                                -- Vernor Vinge, _Tatja Grimm's World_
From: evan@hpl.hp.com (Evan Kirshenbaum)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.misc,comp.tex.tex
Subject: Multilingual Literate Programming?
Date: 8 Jan 93 00:33:00 GMT
Reply-To: kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Laboratories

Does anybody have a version of WEB that can handle describing a
program that is written in multiple languages?

I'd like to give "literate programming" a try, but the project I want
to try it out on is written partly in C and partly in PostScript, and
I think the new version (I'm rewriting it at least in part because
it's grown so complex that I can't maintain it or add features) may
include some Perl and perhaps an ad-hoc configuration file.  I'd like
to specify all of this in a single place, in expository order.

I brought over Spider WEB, but while it can be made to handle any of
these languages, it looks like it can only handle a single language at
a time.

Does what I'm looking for exist?

E-mail responses appreciated.

Thank you,

Evan Kirshenbaum		       +------------------------------------
    HP Laboratories		       | Politicians are like compost--they
    3500 Deer Creek Road, Building 26U | should be turned often or they start
    Palo Alto, CA  94304	       | to smell bad.
				       | 
    kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com	       | 
    (415)857-7572
Newsgroups: comp.lang.misc
From: hrook@descartes.uwaterloo.ca (Harvey Rook)
Subject:  CWEB and WEB
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 20:29:25 GMT

I'm trying to get my hands on the CWEB or WEB meta languages. Can anyone
give me any pointers as to where I can find them?

Thanks, Harvey Rook

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
hrook@descartes.uwaterloo.ca | This sentance no verbs.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroups: comp.lang.misc
From: nharvey@probitas.cs.utas.edu.au (Nicole Harvey)
Subject: Assessing a language
Organization: University of Tasmania, Australia.
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 00:07:06 GMT


hi,
   I posted the following article to another newsgroup, and I was told this had
been already been discussed in this newsgroup. Did anyone save the responses?
Is there a FAQ for this newsgroup?

   I am involved in assessing a language. Does anyone know of a standard
set of problems that I could use to judge the languages compabilities?
   Can anyone think of a problem that represents a real need in a language?
For example, we have tested it for the eight queens problem to show that 
it can do state space searches. We have also made sure it can generate the 
Fibonacci numbers. Can you think of any other well known problems?
   What things do you expect to be able to write relatively simply using any
language? I would like to hear from people working in all areas. 

Nicole
nharvey@probitas.cs.utas.edu.au

Newsgroups: comp.lang.misc