From: john@newave.newave.mn.org (John A. Weeks III)
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
Subject: Re: The question of Experience
Keywords: college job entry cs sysadm
Date: 12 Dec 92 02:25:30 GMT
Organization: Newave Communications, Ltd, Lake Wobegon, MN

In <Bz1qz8.LpA@news.cso.uiuc.edu> pmueller@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (The Highlander):
> I'll start off right away by asking my question.  Can someone like me
> get a job without a college degree, but with little corporate experience?

Yes, but you will probably get screwed in the process.  Most companies
that offer "fun" jobs want people with 2 or 4 year CS degrees.  What might
happen is that you end up with a job that pays $18,000 (because you have
no degree), while someone else doing a similar job might make $38,000.  And
when you are searching for a job, if you appear to be equally acceptable
for a job as someone with a degree, the person with a degree might be picked
over you because they could be seen as less "risky" to hire.

> Here's my situation:  I'm 18, and In the last 8 years have self-taught
> myself computers and programming.  This includeds UNIX, C, C++, Pascal, 
> REXX, Objective-C, as well as many popular applications such as LOTUS
> 1-2-3, dBase, Informix, Word, Mathematica, and others.

College is a game.  You might know this stuff, but a college degree is
proof that you have the ability to learn under pressure and stick with
a job for 4 years until it is complete.  Simply by having a degree, you
have credibility.  If you want a job without a degree, you need to find
a way to fill this credibility gap.  One way might be to have references
from a major development project that you worked on.

> However, when it comes to schooling, I'm not that talented.  My talents
> are limited to computers and writing.  I tend to fail things like History,
> or even Advanced Math.  I initially chose to go to college, finguring that
> here I would learn all i need to know about computers and programming.  I
> chose a respectable school (U of I, Urbana-Champaign) and enrolled.

In college, you learn theory and how to think--it is not a vocational
school for computer programmers.  If you want to go the vocational school
route, find a good school that specializes in computer science.  The CDI
(former Control Data Institute, now called Career Development Institute)
in the Twin Cities or Brown Institute are good alternatives.  Don't waste
your money or time with a vo-tech or on a mail order scam.

Since you really do think you are good with computers, it would be a shame
to see your career stunted by having a hard time getting through college.
Perhaps you need a different approach.  You need a plan where you can take
you CS classes and get your degree without having your other classes hold
you back.  Most universities allow you transfer class credit from one
school to another without having the grade follow you, provided that you
get a C or better.  I reccomend finding a small community college where
you can muddle through most of your non-CS classes, then transfer to a
4 year school to do your upper division CS classes.  All of your community
college grades will go away, and your GPA will be based mainly on your
stellar performance in CS classes.  BTW, you should plan this out carefully
before you jump in to make sure everything works between the two schools
you choose.

> My question is again: Can what I ask be done?  Does anyone have any 
> tips on how to convince an employer that I am worth the gamble of hiring
> someone like me?  Do any of you Head Hunters out there need someone like me?

One other possibility is doing consulting.  If you know a particular program
very well and can demonstrate mastery of the subject, you might be able to
get work through AIC (Analysts International Corp) or Cap Gemani.  Items in
demand right now are PowerBuilder (very hot at the moment), Paradox, DBase,
Clipper, Sybase, Ingress, DB2, Pick, and Cobol.  While these two organizations
are sometimes less than highly thought of, it is a good way to get a start in
CS.  Once you get a contract, it will be up to you to prove yourself.  If
things go badly on the first contract, your career might be cut short.

Good luck!

-john-

-- 
==============================================================================
John A. Weeks III		(612) 942-6969		    john@newave.mn.org
Newave Communications, Ltd.			    ..!uunet!tcnet!newave!john
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc