From: msg7038@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Michalis  Syrimis)
Subject: Re: Federal Solution & Equality : Northern Cyprus vs. Southern Cyprus
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 18:54:38 GMT
Keywords: Enosis, Makarios, Vasiliu, EOKA, Akritas

baysan@en.ecn.purdue.edu (Okan Baysan) writes:

>In article <C15A2M.2v7@news.cso.uiuc.edu> msg7038@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Michalis  Syrimis) writes:

>>Indeed this is so.  Go back and try to remember when the Turkish Cypriots
>>withdrew from the government.  Did anyone force them to leave?  What other
>>actions did they take? They chose to leave in enclaves completely isolated

>   I genuinely wonder what your IQ level is. There is only one word which
Actually, I was thinking the same thing.  It is time to take a test again
my level must have gone down trying to have a conversation with you.

>explains the source of Cyprus issue today. ENOSIS (union of Cyprus with 
>Greece). That was what Greek Cypriots had in mind, and that was what Greek
>Cypriots could not even achieve in 11 whole years, 1963-1974. And they keep
>talking about the Cyprus issue today.

>>from the Greek Cypriots, and they imposed that to as many members of their
>>community as possible, admitedly not with the more democratic way.
>>The actions of the groups VALKAN and TMT against fellow Turkish Cypriots

>    You were fed with the wrong fodder as well Michali. TMT was Turkish 
>Cypriot national defense organization, and it exists even today. It was
>formed years after the Greek Cypriot terrorist organization EOKA was 
>established in 1955, whose goal was to achieve ENOSIS. 

Oh I bet it exists today.  It's founder is your illustrious and
magnanimous leader. I also bet that it continues its practices. 

>>have been well documented in many references dealing with the problem so 
>>there is not a need for me to list any of them here.

>    Oh really? May I ask for a single unbiased reference at least? 

Nothing easier than that. Does the book 'Cyprus' by Christopher Hitchens
Quarted books, London, 1984, pass your test of impartiality?

In page 46, when he is talking about the attitude of the British towards the
two communities he writes:
	Though the Turkish Cypriot terrorist group Volkan was founded in 
	1955, and carried out many lethal attacks on civilians, very few
	members of it were ever tried, let alone punished by the British
	crown.  In contrast, numerous suporters of the Greek Cypriot EOKA
	were hanged and hundreds were imprisoned.  The British trained an
	exclusively Turkish mobile reserve to combat EOKA and and employed
	many more Turks in the police and auxiliary forces.  Members of these
	echelons were involved with Volkan, which later changed its name to
	the Turkish Defence Force TMT (Turk Mudafa Teskilat).  In a celebrated
	case in 1958, a Turk, Sergeant Tuna, was convicted ot possessing bombs
	and ammunition by a British court.  The good sergeant, unlike his 
	Greek counterparts, was allowed bail in his own recognizance and left
	immediatedly for Turkey.

The above shows that TMT (or Volkan) existed since 1955 and not years after as 
you say.

In page 54, talking about the stat of affairs after the independence in 1960.
	After 1960, as both sides circled around each other like scorpions in
	a bottle, it became even more imperative for the sectarian terrorists
	to crush independent or internationalist feeling. In the early years
	Greek Cypriot Fascists did not shoot Greeks (they were to make up for
	this later)..........On the Turkish side, however, life was extremely
	tense.  On the very eve of independence, the British minesweeper HMS
	Burmaston had suprised the Turkish ship Deniz as it prepared to unload
	a cargo of illegal weapons in northern Cyprus.  Other Turkish craft
	had been detained in suspicious circumstances, but the Deniz case is
	important because the vessel was caught before it could throw its 
	contraband overboard, and because the incident shows how sincere were at	least some Turkish elements about the new 'partnership state'........

        Perhaps the worst and most portenous atrocity of this period was 
	commited in April 1962, when two Turkish Cypriot editors raised their
	voices publicly against TMT and its sepatatist plans. Ayhan Hikmet and
	Ahmet Gurkan were the publishers of the weekly Cumhurriyet (Republic)
	They printed consistent criticism of the extremist Turkish leadership
	and even went so far as to threaten the publication of details about
	those who were planning racialist incitement and violence.  Both Hikmet
	and Gurkan were murdered on 23 April, just before the edition in questio	n could go to press.  Emin Dirvana, the Turkish ambassador in Nicosia
	who had grown to dislike the Denktash faction and who later criticized
	it in print, denounced the murderers and, on his own initiative, 
	attended the funeral of the victims.  He was shortly afterwards recalled
	to Ankara.  None of this is to make light of the fear felt by many
	Turkish Cypriots when real intercommunal fighting broke out just before
	Christmas 1963.  Eye-witness accounts of this period are scant and murky	partly because few of the participants in the violence have very much
	to boast about.	

Hitchens then goes on and describes concisely the events after the proposal  
for constitutional revisions, he talks about the Greeks' irregulars failure to
distinquish between civilians, guerrilas and Turkish military personel, and 
states that : 
	The Turkish Cypriots were made to feel threatened as Turks.
He also says that Turkish military forces local and imported tried to establisj
permanent positions.  The concern, he says, was not so much with the Turkish
Population, very thin in some of the parts they took under control, e.g.
St Hilarion Castle, as with the idea of opening a salient within easy reach
of mainland Turkey.

The above two paragraphs establish the 'unbiased' of the source which
you required, I hope. 

>>What kind of a transitional goverment can be formed with 40000 Turkish soldiers>in northern Cyprus. 

>    Excuses, excuses... This is the same mentality behind the Enosis claims.
>"We don't want it but if we get the chance, sure, why not" attitude. If 
>a solution is to be found, a transitional government is a MUST, got it?
>    Just remember the recent statements of the Turkish Prime Miniter, Mr.
>Demirel. "Give me a single guarantee that there will not be a gun shot 
>in Cyprus anymore and I will withdraw all the Turkish soldiers tomorrow."
>Ghali and Vassiliou were both caught off guard and they both chickened out.
>Because none of them was brave enough to show a "single guarantee" to the 
>world.

Thats news to my ears, please give us more details, but try to tell the
whole story.

>>Turkey is notorious for violating cease-fire agreements
>>in order to establish her strategic positions.  As a hint I am mentioning that
>>most of the occypied part of Cyprus came under the control of the turkish forces
>>which violated not a single one (1) cease-fire agreement but three (3) in the
>>period between 23 July and 15 August 1974.

>    What a joke! When the Turkish soldiers came to Cyprus to save the 
>Turkish Cypriot people from the barbaric attacks of the Greek/Greek 
>Cypriot palikaria, they were stationed in a small strip of land that was 
>only 3%. Of course you  hoped that they would stay and not move. There
>were intensive negotiations going on at the same time none of which 
>produced the satisfactory results due to the sheer greed of the Greek 
>Cypriot side. Meanwhile, the Turkish Cypriot people of three villages
>Aloa, Sandallaris and Maratha were being barbarically slaughtered, and 
>buried into mass graves alive. And you shamelessly expected the Turkish
>soldiers to stand still. How shameless, how moronic! The Turkish Soldiers
>were more than welcome and they were hugged in every single Turkish village
>they entered. They brought the peace and freedom to Cyprus, and the most
>important of all, they brought the independence to the Turkish Cypriots.
>Call it invasion, call it occupation but no matter what you say, they 
>bruoght PEACE to Cyprus. There has not been any gun shot, killing,or 
>mass graves ever since. And if their goal was 'invasion' as you put it,
>they would have walked to Larnaca and Limassol before you would even feel
>it. 

I would appreciate if you would cut the 'not a single gun shot, and not
a single killing' crap.  How about the about a dozen Greek Cypriot soldiers
who have been cold-blooded murdered along the Green Line since 1974.
By the same thinking why don't we let you have what you occupied and have
pease for ever, right...
 
>>If Turkey had agreed to withdraw the occupation forces which would have been 
>>replaced by UN troops, of course we would have agreed on the formation of 
>>a transitional government. 

>    UN Troops! The joke of the month! Listen Michali, UN troops are nothing
>more than Tourist Troops, got it? Especially in the case of Cyprus, they
>enjoy the sun and the water, and get a good tan throughout the year. These
>kids have no idea where Cyprus is, if you ask them, and worse yet, their
>brains are washed with the Greek Cypriot fake propaganda the day they 
>arrive in Cyprus. And you expect them to keep peace in Cyprus. They cannot
>even prevent a few Greek Cypriot women who adventurously attempt to cross 
>the border into Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus every year. They can't
>even prevent them, and you expect them to prevent fights and killings.

UN Troops can be Non-Tourist Troops as very recent international developments
have shown, see Kuwait, Somalia,ex Yougoslavia.  
Besides we are talking about a very larger force than the presently existing one.  So you have no point Okan.

As fas as the Cypriot women are concerned, quite adventurous individuals
wanting to find out how Turkish prisons, and interogation methods are?
A trip to corner video club was not enough.

>>The status quo should not be considered as the basis of the negotiations for
>>the problem,simply because it was created by violation of international law
>>and human rights.

>   Bologna! The Greek Cypriot leadership has absolutely no concept of 
>the human rights that you are trying to spell. 

>>What you and your community now occupy does not belong to 
>>you and should be returned to its legal owners.

>   You sound like a kid whose toy has been taken from him. Keep whining!

Thanks for the complement.  A very precious belonging indeed.  There
seems to be an immense gap between our attitudes, characters, and 
cultural levels, Okan, I cannot see how any conversation, in any form,
with you can lead anywhere.

>>Land and home are the most valuable things for a Greek, I do not want to 

>   Same for Turkish Cypriots. But their lives are more important. Thousands
>of Turkish Cypriots were made refugees by the Greek Cypriot Palikaria three
>(3) times in their own homeland. So don't try to make it a one sided issue.

>>generalize but from your position on the subject it does not look to be the
>>same for you too.  It is impossible for me to believe that Turkish Cypriots 
>>from south Cyprus wouldn't want to return to THEIR homes and land rather than

>    In fact some do, but they prefer Freedom, Security, Independence and
>Sovereignty to all other options. Good enough?

As I've said in the past I am not convinced for all the above and  
certain actions of some Turkish Cypriots strengthen my belief.
>>Maybe this is the reason for which the Turkish authorities keep bringing
>>emigrants from Turkey in the occupied areas.

>    You have laid a duck egg this time. Oh well!
Can't get your jokes either.

>>Do you know what Makarios said to Brigadier Ioannides, the fascist who later 
>>ruled the military junta in Greece, when he came to him with a plan for
>>exterminating "that terrible enemy of Hellenism" from Cyprus, in 1967(?) ?

>     No, do you mind repeating it?

>>Well, he did not have much to say, other than that such an  inhuman action was
>>against all his principles. 

>    Lip service!
Look at Hitchens book page 39:
	"I was astonished, speechles.  Then I told him that I could not agree
	with him;I told him that I couldn't even conceive of killing so many
	innocents.  He [Ioannides] kissed my hand and again went away very 
	angry".
>>I'll try to find the exact words of Makarios and post them in the near future.

>   Go, dig his stone grave in Kyyko Monastery at your next convenience...

See what I mean when I talk about cultural level differences.  Well my friend,
grave digging is not very popular in the free part of Cyprus.  However, from
some reports from UNESCO, and the European Counsil that I read I understand
that grave diging, particularly  in Greek cemeteries, has become one of the
most favourite passtimes in the occupied areas.

>>Michalis Syrimis
>>University of Illinois
>>Urbana-Champaign
> 
>Cheers,
>Okan Baysan

>-- 
>  "Unless this small Turkish Community -forming a part of the Turkish race
>   which has been the terrible enemy of Hellenism- is expelled from Cyprus,
>   the duty of the heroes of EOKA can never be considered as terminated."
>                  MAKARIOS, Panayia, 4 September 1962

Do give us a reference for the above.  Ask Serdar he should be able to come 
up with something.

-- 
Michalis Syrimis
University of Illinois
Urbana-Champaign

Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek,alt.news.macedonia