HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: tom@afthree.as.arizona.edu (Thomas J. Trebisky)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: Cathedral Pk. Accident, Yosemite
Date: 19 Aug 92 03:19:18 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Arizona, Tucson, AZ

eugene@wilbur.nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya) writes:

>[One partner's favorite photo in Meyer's Yosemite Climber is Dale Bard
>after he jumared up on a wall anchor consisting of 5 RURPs and blades.]

Hmmm

>A good plate belayer should be able to keep up a rapidly moving second.
>I don't think this damns plates to leading only [all my belays are
>body belays].  And my partners who use plates also know what to do after
>dropping their plates.

I agree, I never have a problem keeping up with belaying my
seconds using a plate (well almost never).  I almost always use a plate,
but every now and then on really easy ground I will bring someone
up on a hip belay just for fun.  They are always astounded that I
almost instantly have them on belay, and I have gotten some really
strange looks from partners who have never used anything but belay
devices.

Long ago, when I first started climbing, I caught a rather
heavy friend I was toproping -- with a hip belay.  Was using 3/8 inch
goldline and I could feel it sliding thru my hand as I wrapped the rope
around my waist.  Held him, but still have a scar on the inside of my
right little finger to remember the incident by.  It is much easier to
hold onto a 7/16 or 11mm rope!

>Yeah, some times the belayer can't keep up.  Then, it's the belayer's
>responsibility to communicate that he/she can't keep up.

And I think it is the seconds responsibility not to outrun the belay.
To do so and risk a fall would involve putting an unnecessary and
probably unexpected shock load on the belayer.  Maybe he is having to
fiddle with some rope snarls or who knows what and isn't giving you
100 percent of his attention anyway.  Find a stance, wait a bit for
the rope to move, yell "up rope" to wake him up ... whatever.
--
	Tom Trebisky	ttrebisky@as.arizona.edu
...."There's no sense in being precise when you don't even
.... know what you're talking about." 
                       - John von Neumann  
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: eugene@wilbur.nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya)
Subject: Re: Equipment failure (was Cathedral accident)
Organization: NAS, NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 92 21:11:48 GMT

The question was raise of me:
>|> >So question: would YOU call this equipment failure or human error?

>In article <1992Aug19.200001.13617@bmerh85.bnr.ca>,
mlord@bmers63.bnr.ca (Mark Lord) writes:
>|> Beyond any doubt, I would not hesitate to call it *human error*.

I think Pasker so far has presented the best post on this.
Your opinion might vary.  I certain would NOT call it equipment failure.
I think that I and most of my partners would say equipment failure
would typically involve structure failure of equipment like breaking.

Witness our previous earlier discussion about the breaking strengths
of biners, flat vs. tubular webbing, rope, etc.
The Friend(tm) and the TCU are intact.  ARS in email called it anchor failure.
I agree, but what failed?  Well, the rock kinda.  Active pro has this
probabilistic way of working, too.  That might be equipment failure.
But we can only surmise.

In article <27436@sophia.inria.fr> luong@sophia.inria.fr writes:
>or head of anything else broken and of bolts beeing pulled out. Is your
>experience the same ?

Sheared or pulled bolts?  See them in CA all the time, they are all around.
One just has to keep your eyes open.  They don't last forever.
Granite or sand stone.  A couple of the fatalities on the r.b. FAQ are due
to bolt failure.  Speaking of FAQs, I see the terminology one didn't post.
[Gotta check crontab.]

--eugene miya, NASA Ames Research Center, eugene@orville.nas.nasa.gov
  Resident Cynic, Rock of Ages Home for Retired Hackers
  {uunet,mailrus,other gateways}!ames!eugene
Second Favorite email message: Returned mail: Cannot send message for 3 days
A Ref: Mathematics and Plausible Reasoning, vol. 1, G. Polya
Newsgroups: rec.climbing,rec.backcountry
From: bruceg@Cadence.COM (Bruce Gustifson)
Subject: Re: Flashbulbs (was: Public Perceptions)
Organization: Cadence Design Systems, Inc.
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 16:47:38 GMT

In article <1992Aug11.002109.4640@PA.dec.com> klee@wsl.dec.com writes:
>|> hmmmmmm... Somehow, shooting backcountry landscapes with a throw-away 
>|> camera strikes me as a picture of irony (yeah, pun intended).
>|> 
>|> How do those things work?  Do they recycle them when they pull the
>|> film out or do they just throw 'em on the heap?
>
>They are advertised as "recyclable".  In the past, most were discarded,
>but many are probably recycled now.  I don't know if "recycled" really
>means the plastic is used to make more cameras.  Very little "recycled"
>plastic is actually remade into similar products.  Most is simply 
>shredded and used as packaging filler.
>
>-- 
>Ken Lee
>DEC Western Software Laboratory, Palo Alto, Calif.
>Internet: klee@wsl.dec.com
>uucp: uunet!decwrl!klee

  From what I read in a newspaper article in San Jose's paper a 
couple of years back, the plastic parts inside the camera's are
re-used in new cameras, not recycled. This makes sense to me, as
I imagine that these parts can last through hundreds of cameras
without needing to be re molded.

************************************************************************
"Would you believe it if you     |  Pepsi ad campaign in Thailand;
saw it with your own eyes?"      | Come alive with the Pepsi Generation
   Asked the woman               |    In Thai translates to:
"That depends"                   | Pepsi will raise your ancestors
    Replied I                    |	from the dead.
***********************************************************************
From: bob@halfdome.sf.ca.us (Bob Pasker)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: emergency techniques (was Re: Cathedral Pk. Accident, Yosemite)
Date: 20 Aug 92 21:25:55 PDT
Followup-To: rec.climbing
Organization: Disorganized Organization

In article <1992Aug21.013132.7368@novell.com>, cranch@novell.com (Christopher Ranch) writes:
> In article <TED.92Aug20185538@aeolia.nmsu.edu> ted@nmsu.edu writes:
>>There ain't nothin' in this world that's worth being a snot over.
>>	Larry Wall
> 
> 	I'd be most interested in a explanation of this technique...

simple: coun't to ten before you get angry, don't cuss and keep your elbows off
the table. 

-- 
-- bob pasker
-- bob@halfdome.sf.ca.us 
--
From: luong@naxos.inria.fr (Quang-Tuan Luong)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Media reports (was Re: Amazung week in CA)
Date: 20 Aug 92 09:35:58 GMT
Reply-To: luong@sophia.inria.fr
Organization: Inria Sofia Antipolis

In article <1992Aug19.183936.10919@organpipe.uug.arizona.edu>, tom@afthree.as.arizona.edu (Thomas J. Trebisky) writes:
|> sinclair@cc.usu.edu (Bob Sinclair) writes:
|> >It seems that whenever there is an accident near cliffs or in the mountains
|> >the victim is reported by the media as a 'rockclimber'. No doubt things get
|> >warped as they go along, ....
|> >Presumably it's because the media find it more sensational to say that
|> >an experienced climber fell on a serious and technical route rather than
|> >reporting that an inappropriately prepared or experienced wanderer got
|> >lost and walked off same route in the fog.

I have the same feeling, although things are a bit different here.
Our media give very accurate report of mountain accidents. You
can for instance check the "Revue de presse" (a newpaper digest) that is
posted daily pn soc.culture.french. Even on the radio, I find the reports
to be precise and informative. For instance they said a week ago that 4
died in the Mont-Blanc range, two fell on Rochefort ridges, one was kill 
by a serac fall at Mt-Maudit... It is certainly mountaineering accidents.

However, the fact that a national radio (France Inter) reports such events
puzzles me a little. Excepted the climbers, who, in the general audience,
can understand such a precise report, and figure out what are the 
Rochefort ridges, or a serac ? And the same day, there must have been probably
30 killed on the road, not to speak of domestic and misc accidents. Focussing
on climbing fatalities is not very different from "inventing" those accidents.
And to your opinion why do they focus on climbing accidents ? 

Tuan.
Xref: sparky rec.climbing:3123 rec.backcountry:6403
From: mangin@debussy.inria.fr (Frank Mangin)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing,rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: unexpected hazards of climbing
Date: 21 Aug 92 08:58:49 GMT
Followup-To: rec.climbing
Organization: INRIA, Sophia-Antipolis (Fr)

In article <1992Aug20.161131.27888@newshost.lanl.gov>, mwj@beta.lanl.gov (William Johnson) writes:

|> They were thinking
|> about setting out salt blocks in remote areas, not so much for the good of the
|> sheep as to motivate them to look for their salt in places other than
|> campsites and frying pans.  This has its own environmental objections, though,
|> and I don't think they've done it yet.

  	This is already a common practice in Europe, especially in national 
parks.


	Frank Mangin                
	Inria                            Phone #93 65 78 66
	2004 route des Lucioles          Email: mangin@mirsa.inria.fr
	06560 Valbonne Cedex
	France
From: dak@biosys.apldbio.COM (David Knorr)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: modular holds
Date: 17 Aug 92 20:46:01 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Applied Biosystems, Inc., Foster City, CA

Roger Leuthner writes about the afforadability of modular holds culled
presumably from dirty roadside pulloffs...
> As far as paying 5-10 bucks for a hunk o'simulated rock, well, uh, yea -
> I've got this nice big red bridge that I'll give you an excellent deal on.

Roger, I couldnt agree more.  I went outside and after my
eyes adjusted, I looked around and found some great looking holds.
Only thing is I have nowhere to glue them ... how much you want for
the bridge.

Dave Knorr


Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: jc@optimla.aimla.com (John VanHoozer)
Subject: Belaying/Leading/Following (Was: Re:Cathedral Pk. Accident, Yosemite
Reply-To: jc@optimla.aimla.com (John VanHoozer)
Organization: OptImage Interactive Services Co., L.P.
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 92 14:16:42 GMT

tom@afthree.as.arizona.edu (Thomas J. Trebisky) writes:
> eugene@wilbur.nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya) writes:
		< stuff deleted >
> >Yeah, some times the belayer can't keep up.  Then, it's the belayer's
> >responsibility to communicate that he/she can't keep up.

> And I think it is the seconds responsibility not to outrun the belay.
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> To do so and risk a fall would involve putting an unnecessary and
> probably unexpected shock load on the belayer.  Maybe he is having to
> fiddle with some rope snarls or who knows what and isn't giving you
> 100 percent of his attention anyway.  Find a stance, wait a bit for
> the rope to move, yell "up rope" to wake him up ... whatever.

You are absolutely right.  I have had to explain this many times to 
new climbers but it seems that it does take them a while to learn this.
I think that the thrill/fear factor robs them of their memory sometimes.

				jc

-- 
___________________________________________________________________________
John C. VanHoozer			     |
OptImage Interactive Services Company, L.P.  |  uunet!{optimage,aimla}!jc
11040 Santa Monica Blvd., Suite #300	     |  Fax:  (310)445-5720
Los Angeles, Ca. 90025			     |  Phone:(310) 445-5721
___________________________________________________________________________
Disclaimer:
   Opinions,  yew doone neeed my steenkeeng Opinions.

Carpe Diem:  A carp a day, that's all we ask.
From: klaus@rice-chex.ai.mit.edu (Klaus B. Biggers)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: amazing week here in CA
Date: 13 Aug 92 23:05:28 GMT
Organization: MIT Artificial Intelligence Laboratory

In article <1992Aug13.211359.28427@nas.nasa.gov> eugene@wilbur.nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya) espouses:
>SO it goes.

Or as Kurt Vonnegut says... Pooh-to-weet (sp?).

-klaus                                              klaus@ced.utah.edu

		Everytime I hear the term twisted pair...
		I think of this couple I used to know.
From: bruceb@roadrunner.denver.sgi.com (Bruce Bailey)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: mantle ... or
Date: 13 Aug 92 14:00:31 GMT
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc.

In article <1992Aug13.043107.28248@colorado.edu>, ghill@dot.cs.colorado.edu (Gregory Hill) writes:

|> ok, I guess that's enough (having just done the crux
|> mantle on "Athlete's Feat" at Castle rock yesterday,
|> I am really psyched for this one).
|> 

It was only 5.10+ right?

Bruce Bailey (Dr. OW)
From: WILLS@LSTC2VM.stortek.com (Cheyenne Wills)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: questions on other grade systems
Date: 12 Aug 92 14:41:45 GMT
Organization: StorageTek SW Engineering

In article <1992Aug11.194934.26777@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU>
jmorton@euler.Berkeley.EDU (John Morton) writes:
 
>
>About those PG ratings... I had assumed that "PG" referred to a progression
>in imitation of the movie ratings in the US, i.e. PG, R, X, in order of
>increasing risk (G is not used for climbs).  But it was pointed out to
>me a few days ago that "PG" is supposed to mean "Protection Good"
>rather than "somewhat runout"!
>
>I guess this is a case of RTFM (which I never do).  I would be interested
>to hear what definitions for this grade are used in the various books
>which use it.
>
>John Morton                                     University of California
>jmorton@euler.berkeley.edu                      Mechanical Engineering
>{decvax,cbosgd}!ucbvax!euler!jmorton            Machine Shop
 
 
I've always seen the "G" and "PG" ratings for Good and Pretty Good
protection (the G rating ment the better of the two).  I believe that
the 2nd edition of the Williams guide to the Gunks used this.
 
For a while Climbing mag was using the "G", "PG", "R", and "X" ratings.
The way that I heard the explination of the "movie" ratings is as follows:
 
It assumes that you are a comfortable leading at the specified level
 
G - Good protection, a fall will usually not result in injury.
    Usually the protection is above your head at the crux or very close.
 
PG - A fall could possibly result in minor injury, fall distance maybe 10,
     15 feet.
 
R  - A fall could result in sever injury.  Possibility of hitting a
     ledge or falling back into a wall.  Long fall potential.
 
X  - A fall could result in death.  Really manky protection with the
     possibility of grounding out.  Basically you treat the climb as
     a solo.
 
+---------------------------------------+-------------------------------+
| +-----+                               | Cheyenne Wills                |
| |     |       "From here on up it is  | Storage Technology Corporation|
| |  +--+--+      downhill all the way" | 2270 South 88th St.           |
| |  |  |  |                            | Louisville, Co. 80028-4232    |
| +--+--+  |                            |                               |
|    |     |                            | wills@lstc2vm.stortek.com     |
|    +-----+                            | cheyenne@stortek.stortek.com  |
+---------------------------------------+-------------------------------+
From: duanej@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Duane Jacobson)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: glacier goggles with glasses
Date: 14 Aug 92 19:32:33 GMT
Article-I.D.: hpfcso.106480252
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Fort Collins, CO, USA


I used some "glacier goggles" that I got at REI for about 15-20 dollars.  They
were made of some cheesey yellow plastic ... but they worked.  They have a
UV rating, I believe 97% or 98%, which isn't as good as more expensive glasses.
But do you have any idea what the UV rating on your clip ons are?  More
importantly, they block the light coming from the top, sides, and bottom.
Unfortunately, they will probably only work for you if you have fairly small
glasses.
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: davol@twinheadmeiko.co.uk (Tomas Millar)
Subject: Anyone for tree climbing?
Organization: meiko
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1992 17:27:19 GMT

  hello
       My name's Tomas and I am 14 years old. I am fairly new to the climbing
scene as I started this christmas when I got a rope and harness as one of my
presents. I mainly climb at an indoor center in Bristol. 
	As well as rock climbing I also enjoy climbing trees with a rope and
harness. Is there anybody out there who also likes tree-climbing using a harness
and rope as I don't know anybody who shares this same interest to swap techniques
with. Also are there any young climbers among you?  If so please reply
            
                      Tomas Millar
From: angeli@infocomm.com
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: amazing week here in CA
Date: 17 Aug 92 15:15:17 PDT
Organization: INFO COMM - Computer Consulting, Redwood City, Ca

In article <1992Aug13.211359.28427@nas.nasa.gov>, eugene@wilbur.nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya) writes:
> I guess something like five people have died climbing this week in
> CA (well, one was a hang glider accident).  One died two days ago
> next to my climb for the weekend.  SO it goes.
> 
> --eugene miya, NASA Ames Research Center, eugene@orville.nas.nasa.gov

I'm really interested in finding out how these climbers died.  Is it mostly
equipment failure or human error?

--
Angeli Salgado - INFO COMM Computer Consulting, Redwood City, Ca
E-MAIL:	angeli@infocomm.com
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: wohfuchi@splash.Princeton.EDU (Wataru Ohfuchi)
Subject: Re: Overhangs (was: Re: Please explain the rating system)
Originator: news@nimaster
Organization: Princeton University
Distribution: na
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 01:59:04 GMT

In article <1992Aug12.093146.1@scivax.stsci.edu> kochte@scivax.stsci.edu writes:
>
>In article <1992Aug12.080657.11720@draco.macsch.com> todd@draco.macsch.com 
>(Todd C. Williams) writes:
>
>[previous other articles deleted for brevity's sake]
>
>>I don't think it's that difficult.  Ever read the qualitative descriptions
>>of the Richter scale?  Can't we even begin to describe what a *typical*
>>5.9 would be?  One example- at what level do overhangs typically begin?
>
>Welllll, I know of a 5.5 route in Ohio that has a fairly serious overhang
>in it, and there are a few 5.4s I've run into with some overhangs, and I
>know of a couple 5.2s (!) that have overhangs (one here in Maryland, one
>at Seneca Rocks, W Va). I don't know of any 5.1 overhangs, though...  :-)
>
>(so what conclusion can you draw from this bit of data?)  :-)
>
>Mark

  "Easy Overhang" at the Gunks, NY is 5.2 according to Swain's 1st edition.
Well, I haven't climbed it but, from its name and the description, it's
another 5.2 overhang. Sorry, I don't climb routes easier than... ;-)
...Wataru
-- 
  ...Wataru Ohfuchi
     Program in Atmospheric and Oceanic Sciences, Princeton University
     w1o@gfdl.gov
From: rogerl@Ingres.COM (Roger Leuthner)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: modular holds
Keywords: more and more modular by the minute
Date: 17 Aug 92 21:57:18 GMT
Reply-To: rogerl@Ingres.COM (Roger Leuthner)
Distribution: usa
Organization: Ask Computer Systems Inc., Ingres Division, Alameda CA 94501

In article <347@biosys.apldbio.COM> dak@biosys.apldbio.COM writes:
>Roger Leuthner writes about the afforadability of modular holds culled
>presumably from dirty roadside pulloffs...

i prefer laund-ro-mat parking lots - shovel a pile of rocks into a nearby
machine, and out comes nice, clean *twenty dollar* holds.  pisses off the
owners though. 

>> As far as paying 5-10 bucks for a hunk o'simulated rock, well, uh, yea -
>> I've got this nice big red bridge that I'll give you an excellent deal on.
>
>Roger, I couldnt agree more.  I went outside and after my
                                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
kool!

>eyes adjusted, I looked around and found some great looking holds.
>Only thing is I have nowhere to glue them ... how much you want for
>the bridge.
>
>Dave Knorr

I've found no better surface than a well sanded spot on a '67 microbus ...
although this can be dangerous if you try to ditch a climbing "buddy"
in death valley ... those climbers can be such tenacious b*st*rds.

ps: you might need to buy a masonary bit for your drill if you need to put
these onto plywood (in case you're locked inside for the weed-end)

pss: every real climber owns an electric drill?  (with a couple of spare
battery packs??   maybe just a long extension cord???)

psss: bridge is sold  -  maybe I could broker a rental agreement with the
new owner for ya ...
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: seafed@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (paul.w.campbell..jr)
Subject: Joining of Rappel Ropes
Keywords: knots
Organization: AT&T
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1992 03:07:16 GMT

Some time ago, there was a lively discussion concerning 
the appropriate knot to use for joining Rappel ropes.
I was not able to follow the discussion because of the press of business,
but wonder if there was consensus reached.

I recall there was Euopean(Continental) support for the use of
doubled overhand knots(They may also be called "thumb knot".).

Many Americans use the Double Fisherman(also called grapevine).

Is there UIAA or UIMGA support for any method?


Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: bruceg@Cadence.COM (Bruce Gustifson)
Subject: Re: Why 5.7 is harder than 5.10 (was ratings)
Organization: Cadence Design Systems, Inc.
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 22:05:01 GMT

In article <Aug14.192722.13125@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU (wayne trzyna) writes:
>In article <1992Aug13.013729.16775@nas.nasa.gov> eugene@wilbur.nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya) writes:
>>
>>1) The MAJORITY of people I have met who CLAIMED they could "climb" 5.10
>>never LED 5.10.
>
>I can CLIMB 5.10X!  Pretty bold, eh?
>

  I can lead 5.10x after toproping it only 25 times!
>-- 
>
>-Wayne Trzyna
> trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU

************************************************************************
"Would you believe it if you     |  Pepsi ad campaign in Thailand;
saw it with your own eyes?"      | Come alive with the Pepsi Generation
   Asked the woman               |    In Thai translates to:
"That depends"                   | Pepsi will raise your ancestors
    Replied I                    |	from the dead.
***********************************************************************
Xref: sparky rec.climbing:3114 rec.backcountry:6377
From: johnf@Auspex.COM (John Fereira)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing,rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: unexpected hazards of climbing
Date: 20 Aug 92 21:24:14 GMT
Followup-To: rec.climbing
Organization: Auspex Systems, Inc.

In article <1992Aug20.161131.27888@newshost.lanl.gov> mwj@beta.lanl.gov (William Johnson) writes:
|Once your campsite has been mugged by one or two of these salt monsters, your
|attitude toward hunters and/or reintroduction of predators is likely to, shall
|we say, crystallize in a certain position. :-)

I haven't had a mountain goat in our campsite but once had a ringtail cat
run off with a large bag of fig newtons.  Caught him in the act.

-- 
+============================================================================++
| John Fereira            "Is that all you ever think about?"                |
| johnf@auspex.com                                                           |
+============================================================================++