HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: epp@mala.bc.ca (Lorne Epp)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Acronyms (Was Re: Articles and acronyms)
Date: 26 Sep 92 01:50:39 -0700
Organization: Malaspina College

In article <1992Sep25.073350.1991@sq.sq.com>, msb@sq.sq.com (Mark Brader) writes:
> 
> To the general, non-technophilic public, I do not believe that ATM means
> anything at all; for automatic teller machines, I think most people
> just use the brand name used by their own bank, or perhaps some other
> bank whose brand name seems more generic.  I believe (though I'm not
> sure) that I've heard the TD[1] Bank's "Green Machine" and the CIBC[2]'s
> "InstantTeller" used in this generic sense.
> 
Or the most revolting one, Canada Trust's "JohnnyCash".  They used
Johnny Cash in the commercials.

Around here they're usually called bank machines.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Lorne Epp                                               epp@mala.bc.ca
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: andrew@utopia.resntl.bhp.com.au (Andrew Lewis)
Subject: Re: Re: Bee sting or Bee bite?
Organization: BHP Research - Newcastle Laboratories
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1992 03:54:33 GMT

In article <-278349992@hpopd.pwd.hp.com>, apm@hpopd.pwd.hp.com (Andrew Merritt) writes:
|> jon@ccl.umist.ac.uk (Jon Wells) writes:
|> >As far as the act of injecting the poison into a victim, this can only,
|> >IMHO, be known as a sting. 
|> 
|> If you are talking specifically about bees, then I would agree.

Yes, to bite involves teeth, mouth parts, mandible or something of that sort,
certainly not something attached to the bum.

|> If the
|> sentence is meant to stand in isolation, then I would point out that snakes
|> inject poison into a victim by biting.
|> 

Hmm, "Serpent, where is thy sting?"

Andrew
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: MORE LIKE?
Originator: news@nimaster
Reply-To: roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig)
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 22:13:57 GMT

In article <1992Sep30.150209.126936@watson.ibm.com> yozzo@watson.ibm.com (Ralph Yozzo) writes:
>In a quote from a major newspaper discussing the Bush taxpayer option
>to check a box on their tax return to direct a part of their tax payment
>towards reducing the deficit, the paper states:

> "We believe it would be more
> like trying to fly a jumbo jet by letting everybody on board operate the
> controls at the same time."

>Is the phrase "more like" considered proper in the English language?

Sure.  What would you say instead?  It's what you say when choosing
one comparison over another.  "A pear is more like an apple than a
banana is."

Roger

Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: tdlg9831@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Tracey Dianne Layng)
Subject: Re: cockney slang
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 15:54:11 GMT

There is a book called _The Muvver Tongue_ which is a study of Cockney 
written by two Cockneys, Robert Barltrop and Jim Wolveridge. I don't
know who published it though.
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Bee sting or Bee bite?
From: Pat.Churchill@bbs.actrix.gen.nz
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1992 23:27:17 GMT
Organization: Actrix Information Exchange

In article <1a0k4sINN12e@uwm.edu> jgd@csd4.csd.uwm.edu writes:
> From article <90256@netnews.upenn.edu>, by crawford@ben.dev.upenn.edu (Lauren L. Crawford):
> > In article <1992Sep23.155624.1502@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> sborders@nyx.cs.du.edu (Scott Borders) writes:
> >>
> >>_His_ victim, actually.  The only female in the hive is the queen. 
> >>Workers are male, and the drones are neuter. 
> 
> Mr. Borders is wrong on this point.  Drones are the male bees.  Since
> "male" is now taken, and worker bees are not neuter, they must be
> female.  Infertile (or perhaps reproductively immature) females, but
> females nevertheless.
> 
> (I'm not a bee expert.  This is just what I recall having been drummed
> into my head many years ago.  You want expert, go find an apiarist
> or an entomologist.)
> 
> > OK.  That's it.  I'm going to go out now, find a bee, and look under
> > its skirt.
> 
> Well, that's yet another way to settle this.  :-)
> 
> -- 
> John G Dobnick                          ATTnet: (414) 229-5727
> Computing Services Division             INTERNET: jgd@uwm.edu
> University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee     UUCP: uunet!uwm!jgd
> 
> "Knowing how things work is the basis for appreciation,
> and is thus a source of civilized delight."  -- William Safire

Just seeing all this discussion on the sex of various bees makes me
wonder what kind of Birds and Bees talk everyone's getting from the
folks these days.  Maybe that's where the world's going wrong? :-)
-- 
| The floggings will continue until morale improves
| Pat.Churchill@bbs.actrix.gen.nz (Pat Churchill, Wellington, New Zealand)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: eepjm@wombat.newcastle.edu.au (Peter Moylan)
Subject: Re: h as in Pittsburgh (was Re: to be or not to be
Organization: University of Newcastle, AUSTRALIA
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 05:53:07 GMT

In article <1992Sep27.073647.2925@techbook.com>, dant@techbook.com (Dan Tilque) writes:
> 
> Some of the other standardizations were to change -borough to -boro,
> get rid of possesive forms and diacritic characters (including
> apostrophes as in D'Lo, Mississippi) and hyphens.  To a certain extent,
> they were successful, especially with possessives.  The weirdest change
> they attempted to make was to write all names as a single word.  I've
> seen "Frenchglen" and its like on some older maps, although I think
> most of the stranger ones have now reverted.

I'm relieved - but only slightly - to discover that Australia is
not alone in this respect.  Around here we have Warners Bay, 
Johns Road, and so on.  I don't think there's a single place name
in Australia which still has an apostrophe.

That's the official position, of course.  Many people still
re-insert them.
-- 
Peter Moylan                      eepjm@wombat.newcastle.edu.au
From: bf455@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Bonita Kale)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Acronyms (Was Re: Articles and acronyms)
Date: 28 Sep 1992 10:31:00 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: slc4.ins.cwru.edu




In a previous article, epp@mala.bc.ca (Lorne Epp) says:

>Or the most revolting one, Canada Trust's "JohnnyCash".  They used
>Johnny Cash in the commercials.
>
>Around here they're usually called bank machines.


We call them bank machines too.  I don't know what gets into corporations. 
Didn't they -know- JohnnyCash would sound like a coin-operated toilet? 

Bonita Kale
From: padutton@wpi.WPI.EDU (Peter Alan Dutton)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Re: Bee sting or Bee bite?
Date: 28 Sep 1992 20:22:13 GMT
Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute
NNTP-Posting-Host: wpi.wpi.edu

In article <-278349993@hpopd.pwd.hp.com> apm@hpopd.pwd.hp.com (Andrew Merritt) writes:

>However, this is entomology, not etymology.

I motion that we add this to the Official List of Neat Sentences.

Peter!

Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: dschlow@epas.utoronto.ca (Deborah Schlow)
Subject: Re: seconded
Organization: University of Toronto - EPAS
Distribution: alt
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1992 16:30:50 GMT


If you are talking military terms, it is seCONded, i.e. he was seconded
to the second division.
If you are talking about a political motion, it is SEconded, i.e. I
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english,talk.abortion,talk.politics.misc
From: mon@cray.com (Muriel Nelson)
Subject: Re: Technical Terms For New users....
Date: 1 Oct 92 09:32:57 CDT

In article <1992Sep30.212800.24835@wetware.com> drieux@wetware.com (drieux, just drieux) writes:

>Or do your presume that 'super computers' wear leotards,
>with a Big S on them, and have Capes, and change in 
>phone booths from ordinary PC's.....
>
SSSHHHHHHH!
You were NOT supposed to TELL.

muriel
standard disclaimer
From: segr@nessie.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Read)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: The Great Debate: Re: Brit. vs. Amer. spelling, was: Re: Improper spelling
Date: 27 Sep 92 16:25:51 GMT
Organization: Manchester Computing Centre

I hadn't intended to stir up as much debate on this as I
have, but I'll answer some flames publicly:

In article <1992Sep17.013754.23347@news.eng.convex.com>, Tom
Christiansen writes:

> Same place they use these:
[stuff deleted]
>
>   damme the torpedoes

Note: I at least make a distinction between

dam   Built by beavers.
damn  Send to eternal discomfort in Hell.

:-)

In article <1992Sep17.181133.26924@ccu.umanitoba.ca>, 
ens@ccu.umanitoba.ca writes 

>>In <1992Sep16.195808.28853@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> segr@nessie.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Read) writes:
[stuff deleted]
>>I was fortunate enough to be asked to proof read the second edition
>
>I gather 'proofread' is 2 words in the UK.

Oops, I stand corrected!



Generally there seems to be a belief that I'm exhorting the
creation of words to distinguish shades of meaning. I don't
and won't; but if the words are there I'll try and use them
to express shades of meaning which really are there.
Sometimes in my technical field I'll distinguish spellings
and USE them in specific contexts to make my meaning a
little bit clearer.

In a language as rich as English, which we all enjoy using,
I want to do my best to preserve its richness and enhance
it, not see it destroyed by laziness.


Simon Read
----------
Simon.Read@umist.ac.uk
From: dant@techbook.com (Dan Tilque)
Subject: Re: Redundant foreign phrase usage (was Re: coke brings back anc)
Reply-To: dant@techbook.com (Dan Tilque,,,,)
Organization: Pseudopolis Yard
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1992 02:32:38 GMT


[I apologize for the tardiness of this (or if you've already seen it).
I've been having problems posting recently because of a full disk.]


mikulska@astro.princeton.edu (Margaret Mikulska) writes:
>dant@techbook.com (Dan Tilque) writes:
>>
>>I knew some pedant who's trained him- or herself to speak unnaturally
>>would show up.  
>
>What makes you think that I needed any "training" to speak this way?  Is
>it really impossible to imagine that for some people, this is a NATURAL
>way of speaking?

Yes it is, at least if you're a native speaker.  Leaving off the "the"
(as in "Hoi polloi need a bath.") makes "hoi polloi" sound like
something other than a common noun.  A name perhaps.

>>I agree that people should know the meaning of words they use, but
>>"hoi" is not an English word.  The phrase "hoi polloi" is English but
>>the components of that phrase are not English words.
>
>Doesn't matter if it's English, Greek, or Swahili.  If you want to use a
>phrase or an expression, you better know what it means.

Yes, they should know that it means "the general populace; masses" (to
quote Webster's definition) but that doesn't mean they must know that
"hoi" is an article.  Since it's a foreign phrase and they're not
required to know that foreign language to speak English, it could be
that "polloi" is the article or there may not even be an article in
it.  They can still use it just fine.

>
>>I just don't think that when we borrow words or phrases from
>>another language that we must also borrow the grammar of that other
>>language as well.
>
>I guess you don't understand the difference between the grammar and the
>meaning.  As you yourself just said, "... people should know the meaning
>of words they use ...".  Why don't you apply this principle yourself?

I am.  Articles don't carry much meaning and whether one should be
used in a particlar place or not is largely a matter of grammar.

How about this: Latin has no articles.  So when we use a Latin noun, we
shouldn't use any articles in front of it no matter what our English
grammar tells us is correct.  This rule seems just as logical as the one
you make for "hoi polloi".

---
Dan Tilque    --     dant@techbook.com
From: ted@physics1 (Emory F. Bunn)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: An etymological question
Date: 4 Oct 1992 01:11:13 GMT
Organization: Physics Department, U.C. Berkeley
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: physics1.berkeley.edu

This isn't exactly an English usage question, but it's certainly related
to many of the things people discuss in this group.

There are two classes of words that have the root "hyster-" in them:
"Hysteria" and "hysterectomy" both come from the Greek word for "uterus"
(Hysteria was once thought to be an exclusively female ailment.), while
"hysteresis" comes from a Greek word meaning something like "later."

My question is this:  Are these two words actually related somewhere 
far back in time?  If so, how?  If not, then doesn't it seem strange
that Greek should have evolved two such distinct meanings for almost
the same word?  (After all, "hyster-" is a fairly long and complex
sequence of sounds.  It doesn't surprise me a bit that the word "ou"
has two distinct meanings in Greek, but "hyster" is a little much.)

By the way, this is the way this subject came up in the first place.
One of my professors asserted in class that "hysteresis" comes from
the same root as "history."  Having studied Latin as far as _De Bello
Gallico_ in high school, I was skeptical.  Clearly "history" comes straight
from the Latin "historia."  My dictionary asserts that if you trace it
back further, "historia" comes from some Greek word "histor", but isn't
clear on what that word means.  It's not by any chance related to
"hyster-", is it?

-Ted




Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: mnash@IDA.ORG (Mike Nash)
Subject: Words ending in -scope
Organization: IDA, Alexandria, VA
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 92 14:58:33 GMT

Does anyone have a nice, long list of English nouns ending in -scope?  I'm
looking for words describing optical devices, like microscope, telescope,
arthroscope, laparoscope.  I'd like definitions, too, but I can to go my
dictionary for those if need be.

Thanks.
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: evan@hpl.hp.com (Evan Kirshenbaum)
Subject: Re: Redundant foreign phrase usage (was Re: coke brings back anc)
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 21:21:11 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Laboratories

In article <10923@spark.ed.ac.uk> iad@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Ivan A Derzhanski) writes:
>In article <1992Oct2.023238.1297@techbook.com> dant@techbook.com (Dan Tilque,,,,) writes:
><mikulska@astro.princeton.edu (Margaret Mikulska) writes:
><>dant@techbook.com (Dan Tilque) writes:
><>>The phrase "hoi polloi" is English but
><>>the components of that phrase are not English words.
><>
><>Doesn't matter if it's English, Greek, or Swahili.  If you want to use a
><>phrase or an expression, you better know what it means.
><
><Yes, they should know that it means "the general populace; masses" (to
><quote Webster's definition)
>
>Fine.  If Webster says that "hoi polloi" means `the general populace',
>it follows that "the hoi polloi" means `the the general populace'.  Right?
>
><but that doesn't mean they must know that "hoi" is an article.
>
>It doesn't matter whether "hoi" or "polloi" or anything else is an article.
>It only matters that "hoi polloi" is a definite noun phrase.
>
><Since it's a foreign phrase and they're not
><required to know that foreign language to speak English,
>
>Sigh.  Why is it that some people never learn the distinction between
>knowing a foreign language and being aware of a certain fact that has
>something to do with that language?
>
><How about this: Latin has no articles.  So when we use a Latin noun, we
><shouldn't use any articles in front of it no matter what our English
><grammar tells us is correct.
>
>"Your" English grammar tells "you" to use an article in front of a noun
>in order to construct a definite noun phrase.  It doesn't tell "you" to
>use an article in front of a noun phrase.  "Hoi polloi" is a noun phrase.
>(See Webster's definition above.)

Umm, Ivan, I hate to point this out but at least in my Webster's (M/W
NCD), *all* nouns are described by noun phrase definitions.  On the
same page as "hoi polloi" (which, by the way, is marked "n pl") are

	hog: *a* domestic swine...
	hogan: *a* building usually made of logs...
	hokum: *a* deviced used by showmen...
	hold: *the* interior of a ship below decks...
	holder: *a* person that holds...

I wouldn't hesitate to place an article before any of these.  I'm sure
you wouldn't, either.  I would also be no more likely to omit the
article in front of hoi polloi than I would the one in front of
"algebra" [ML, fr. Ar al-jabr, lit. the reduction] (in count noun
context). "Alhambra" [Sp, fr. Ar al-h.amra:?, the red house], or
"lariat" [AmerSp la reata, the lasso...].  

[I know; I know: the first two aren't our fault, we can blame Latin
and Spanish for them. :-)]

Interestingly, the etymology for "hogan" just says "[Navajo]".  How
many people do you think could tell whether it comes from a noun or a
noun phrase?

Evan Kirshenbaum
    HP Laboratories
    3500 Deer Creek Road, Building 26U
    Palo Alto, CA  94304

    kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com
    (415)857-7572
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: arantamaki@tnclus.tele.nokia.fi
Subject: Re: 'A' versus 'An'
Organization: Nokia Telecommunications.
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1992 08:16:05 GMT

In article <1992Oct2.015123.17540@u.washington.edu>, perseant@stein.u.washington.edu (Dis Pater (Konrad Schroder)) writes:
> yozzo@watson.ibm.com (Ralph Yozzo) writes:
> 
>>I always thought that 'an' was used when followed by
>>a noun that begins with a vowel.  For example, an apple,
>>an eagle, an island, an octopus.  But "an unicycle" does 
>>not sound correct to my ear.
> 
> Your rules are correct; but 'unicycle' doesn't begin with a vowel, at least
> where I live: I would say /a/ /yu" ni sai' k@l/.

I was always taught that using 'a' or 'an' depends on the 
pronunciation, not the spelling of the noun that follows 
the indefinite article. Thus: 'a unicycle' but 'an uncle';
'an hour' but 'a hat'.

Annu Rantam{ki
From: michael.hagerty@nitelog.com (Michael Hagerty) 
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Need software for brains
Date: 27 Sep 92 20:48:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Nitelog BBS - Monterey, CA - 408-655-1096
Reply-To: michael.hagerty@nitelog.com (Michael Hagerty) 

In a message to ALL, VIVIAN ALDRIDGE says:

VA. The software I really liked is called IDEAFISHER, but it is about
VA. $700!! I'm looking to spend $70-$200.

Maybe if enough people write (or call) the IdeaFisher people they will
figure out that their price is a little <g> high...

Regards, Mikey (michael.hagerty@nitelog.com)
---
 . JABBER v1.3.1 #.042 . 450 messages a day and they call it .QWK??
                                                                                                                  
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: perseant@stein.u.washington.edu (Dis Pater (Konrad Schroder))
Subject: Re: 'A' versus 'An'
Organization: University of Washington
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1992 01:51:23 GMT

yozzo@watson.ibm.com (Ralph Yozzo) writes:

>I always thought that 'an' was used when followed by
>a noun that begins with a vowel.  For example, an apple,
>an eagle, an island, an octopus.  But "an unicycle" does 
>not sound correct to my ear.

Your rules are correct; but 'unicycle' doesn't begin with a vowel, at least
where I live: I would say /a/ /yu" ni sai' k@l/.
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: "VICKIE STARBUCK" <TS0058@ohstmvsa.acs.ohio-state.edu>
Subject: login, logon, logout, logoff
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 17:36:00 GMT



Has anyone ever been tempted to do something like this -
    "log-in to"  or "log-on to"

Somehow both "log in to" and "log on to" seem to lack something,
and I think a hyphen might do.

Personally, I logon to my MVS system most, because that is where
I "live" and when I'm done I logoff.  But on our ultrix system
I login and logout.  I like to use the jargon, login, logon,
logoff, logout, whenever possible.

Vickie
From: long@qut.edu.au
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: New verbs (was Re: log in etc.)
Date: 2 Oct 92 08:37:41 EST
Organization: Queensland University of Technology

john@bunsen.rosemount.com (John Perkins)


>Yes, I agree it should be "log in to."  

>'Login' is perfectly OK as a noun, but as a verb I think it's
>much better as two words.  There are many other similar compound
>nouns that are commonly used as verbs in the same form.

Sounds like a good distinction to make, between the verb form and the noun.
What about if it's used adjectivally though? Perhaps there might be reason
to use a hyphen, as in at the 'log-in prompt'.

Geoff Long
From: slb22@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Seth L. Blumberg)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: difference between boyfriend and girlfriend
Date: 30 Sep 92 02:59:15 GMT
Reply-To: slb22@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Seth L. Blumberg)
Organization: Columbia University

In article <92272.053214HERSCH@auvm.american.edu> HERSCH@auvm.american.edu writes:
>In article <1992Sep28.031210.17577@Princeton.EDU>, roger@crux.Princeton.EDU
>(Roger Lustig) says:
>>
>> Besides, the Beatles *couldn't* have
>>sung "my girlfriend" there, not only (as someone else pointed out)
>>because of meter but because "girlfriend" isn't used for addressing
>>someone....
>
>Listen, girlfriend, it is among people *I* know.
>
>H.

There's also the usage "friend-girl" and "friend-boy," apparently common among
African-Americans in the 'Twenties (judging by my Robert Johnson CD's), which
was used both as a general noun and as a form of address.

Seth L. Blumberg          | "Once again, fear and superstition triumphed over
slb22@cunixb.columbia.edu |    science and technology."
On CI$: 76460,1666        |        -- Anton Braun Quist, quoting Ed Whitaker
   > No one I know shares my opinions, least of all Columbia University. <
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: scharle@lukasiewicz.cc.nd.edu (Scharle)
Subject: seemingly unpretentious
Reply-To: scharle@lukasiewicz.cc.nd.edu (Scharle)
Organization: Univ. of Notre Dame
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 15:45:16 GMT

   From the Visitor's Guide to Dining at Notre Dame:
   "Nestled on the 14th fairway of Burke Memorial Golf Course
lies the seemingly unpretentious Morris Inn Hotel and Restaurant."


-- 
Tom Scharle                |cm65n6@irishmvs(Bitnet)
Room G003 Computing Center |scharle@lukasiewicz.cc.nd.edu(Internet)
University of Notre Dame  Notre Dame, IN 46556-0539 USA
From: shakib.otaqui@almac.co.uk
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: seconded
Date: 4 Oct 92 12:04:54 GMT
Distribution: alt
Organization: ALMAC BBS Ltd

JL>   Can someone tell me how the word 'seconded' is pronounced?  I'm thinking
  >   of its use in sentences like: Major Smythe-Jones was seconded to the
  >   Royal Fusiliers.

JL>   I have the impression it is pronounced seCONded, but since I am not
  >   absolutely certain that I heard the word on Masterpiece Theater, I
  >   thought it prudent to check with the net.

  That's the way it's pronounced in British English.  On the other
  hand, we would say that a motion was SEconded.

  Shakib


---
 ~ PQ 2.15 189 ~ Internet: shakib.otaqui@almac.co.uk
--
ALMAC BBS Ltd. 0324-665371
Dos based USENET access,  call for details!
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english