HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mgw@world.std.com (maryanne g wolf)
Subject: Re: Inappropriate responses to job posting
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 16:20:26 GMT

In article <1992Dec29.041740.10191@netcom.com> marquis@netcom.com (Roger Marquis) writes:
>> mgw@world.std.com (maryanne g wolf) writes:
>>I am job-hunting, and I have also screened resumes.
>>I understand that it is annoying to get resumes you are not interested in.
>>I'd like the people who don't want inappropriate resumes
>>to propose an alternative.  I'm not convinced that there is one.
>>
>>Imagine you work for a company which will not pay a recruiter if an
>> [...]
>>Mary-Anne Wolf
>
>Mary-Anne,
>
>Imagine if the world were populated by people who were concerned about
>the welfare of their fellow man/woman.  Imagine how nice it would be
>if applicants cared whether they were annoying / wasting the time of /
>turning off prospective employers and managers by sending
>inappropriate resumes.  
> <lines deleted>
>Roger Marquis

Please don't misunderstand.  I *am* concerned.  I have been at the
receiving end of resumes too.  It is bothersome.  That is why I asked
for alternatives.  

Thus far, the only suggestion I have seen is what is often called
"informational interviews".  If the aim is not to waste someone's
time, I do not immediately see why attempts at contact to arrange such
an interview would be an improvement on a flood of excess resumes.
Have I missed something there?

What I meant by an appropriate cover letter for an ill-matched
resume might include something like one of these:

"I am writing in reponse to the article which you posted seeking a
Senior Technical Writer.  I have 5 years of industry experience and
familiarity with UNIX, Motif, and C++.  Although I have written the
content of on-line HELP windows, I have never actually written a
manual for a product.  The enclosed writing sample concerns a
fictitious product.  I would also be interested in any unadvertised
development or testing positions which might become open in the same
project, if you feel that I might be qualified..."

or

"I am writing in response to your newspaper ad for Software Engineer
III in the September 31st Brookline World.  Although I have the
experience in VMS and LISP which you specify, I have only recently
finished my BSCS.  Would you consider an entry-level candidate?..."

Roger Marquis writes:
>Imagine if the world were populated by people who were concerned about
>the welfare of their fellow man/woman.

I FEEL COMPASSION FOR *BOTH* THE FRUSTRATED JOB-HUNTER AND THE
OVERWORKED RESUME SCREENER.

That is why I'm trying to look for alternatives to the current mess.

Mary-Anne Wolf
mgw@world.std.com


Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
From: ilana@kiowa.scd.ucar.edu (Ilana Stern)
Subject: Re: Inappropriate responses to job posting
Organization: NCAR/UCAR
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 18:08:34 GMT

In article <1992Dec21.122828@ardor.enet.dec.com>, kannan@ardor.enet.dec.com (Nari Kannan) writes:
> Is it just me or others also irritated by this constant stream of
> "Don't  waste my time. It's more precious than yours"
> postings.  Have some compassion for people hit by hard
> times and looking for a job for a long time.  Being worried
> about your livelihood and constant anxiety about whether
> you are going to earn anything in your life (especially for fresh
> graduates)  again is nothing compared to a delete command
> you can type in your mail system. So get a perspective on this
> and stop playing God.  When you are desperate,  you may try
> something "just in case".
	[much deleted]
> Four years from now
> you may not have the same  choice of candidates that everyone
> seems to be complaining about.

Sorry, but I disagree with you (and agree with the original poster).
He wasn't talking about people with only one year of experience as
technical writers applying for a job which asked for five years'
writing experience (in which case I would agree, "give them a break --
there may be no better candidate").  He was talking about people seeking
jobs as C programmers applying for a tech writer job!  

The Human Resources people who post job openings here post 'em all --
if they had an opening in your field, don't you think they'd post it?
The "friendly guys" who are publicizing openings in their own groups
most probably have nothing to do with any other group within their
organization, and wouldn't be able to help you anyway with a resume for
a different position!  Floods of unrelated resumes alienate them,
make them less friendly, and result in fewer job openings being posted.

So don't think of it as people saying "Don't waste my time, it's more
precious than yours."  Think of it as people saying "Don't waste my time
or your time, either" -- because sending resumes that have nothing to
do with the job being advertised *is* a waste of your own time.

-- 
/\    "I'm only a human girl person.  I ain't always perfect."--Rambling Rose
  \_][ <--NCAR Ilana Stern dod#009 r.b. cliff swallow ilana@ncar.ucar.edu    
      \______________________________________________________________________
From: cb926@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Edmund Joseph Ryan)
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
Subject: Query on Vector Marketing Corporation
Date: 30 Dec 1992 16:17:32 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


Greetings,

I responded to an add at my college for a position at Vector
Marketing Corporation. The corp. was created by the forty-year
old Alcas Corp. to market the Cutco set--high quality knives.
I am interested in hearing about anybody's experience with 
this company.   

As for my experience, so far I've attended two of their seminars.
I was hired to be a salesman to do direct selling. This is what
was described to me: 

As a member of the team, one would first pitch to their neighbors
and get referrences. From there, I would visit the houses of 
those referrals. I was told to get ten leads per visit so that
my potential customer base expands at a very high rate. I would
be required to rent a sample set of cutlery or buy it. 
Rent costs $50 for the first month and $25 for the rest. 
Workers in Vector get Cutco products for 65% of the official
price. 

What got me suspicious about the company was that the cutlery
was a lot of money nonetheless a bargain. I talk with a few
of my neighbors, and they told me some negative stories about
experiences of friends they knew who took the job. 

At the seminar, the supervisor told us that you would get a
sale 6 out of 10 times with an average of $126. The seminar
itself was very thorough in detailing how to make a    
presentation and close the sale. 

I would appreciate any information--positive or negative.

Thank you.

Virtually,

Edmund J. Ryan
From: zh00+@andrew.cmu.edu (Zhengguo Hu)
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
Subject: What is essence of SUCCESS
Date: 29 Dec 92 15:42:50 GMT
Article-I.D.: andrew.EfEDuOC00WBNM2ZpMM
Organization: Doctoral student, Chemistry, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA


  I was recently interviewed by a consulting company. The interviewer
ask me the question:
  "How would you describe the essence of success?"

  This question surprised me. What are your answers?

Ed
From: bobert@informix.com (Robert Murphy)
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
Subject: Re: Inappropriate responses to job posting
Date: 31 Dec 92 20:24:34 GMT
Organization: Informix Software, Inc.

>klee@wsl.dec.com (Ken Lee) writes:

>>Things like:  "no entry-level
>>positions are available" seem to work a little.

My favorite from the other side of the fence was an ad for a Macintosh
programmer that ran about 1987 which said, "Five years Macintosh programming
experience required."  Let's see... the Mac debuted in 1984... which one
of the half-dozen original developers was this company trying to hire,
and how much were they willing to pay 'em?  (I think that by that point,
they were all wealthy enough to not worry about responding to such inane ads.)
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
From: isc@panix.com (David Koosis)
Subject: Re: EasyResume(TM) Resume Writing Outline/Sample
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 21:42:18 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: PANIX Public Access Unix, NYC

In <1992Dec29.012314.21477@vela.acs.oakland.edu> w2lee@argo.acs.oakland.edu (Walter Lee) writes:

>In article <72509@cup.portal.com>, Lee_-_Johnson@cup.portal.com writes:

>(stuff deleted)

>>World.  In 1993, they will be opening several new offices in the U.S. and 
>>Europe.  OBVIOUSLY, THIS IS A GROUND-FLOOR OPPORTUNITY!

>(more stuff deleted)

>>ENTRY-LEVEL GRADS:   Employers utilize College Placement Offices to hire
>>                     recent graduates with no paid commercial industry
>>                     experience.  EMPLOYERS DO NOT USE RECRUITING FIRMS
>>                     FOR THIS PURPOSE.  WE ARE UNABLE TO ASSIST
>>                     ENTRY-LEVEL GRADUATES WITH NO PAID COMMERCIAL INDUSTRY
>>                     EMPLOYMENT.                   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

>Mr. Johnson, you contradict yourself.  You also flatter yourself by equating
>hiring someone with "assisting" same.  I'd like to go on record in this forum
>in my statement that people like you are a disgrace to the American economic
>system.

Gee Walter, I don't understand your angry comments.

"ground-floor" does _not_ imply "entry-level;"  it just means
that there's an opportunity to grow with the company.

Having worked as a permanent (programmer/analyst) employee, consultant, and 
recruiter in the software industry, I think that 
recruiters can and do provide a valuable service.

That being said, It must also be said that most of the recruiters
I've dealt with were a pretty scummy lot.  One of the reasons
that my company, ISC Consultants, began brokering programmers is
because we felt that the current model for doing business
could be improved.

I'd be very interested in hearing why it is that you consider
mr. johnson "a disgrace".  do you despise recruiters in general?
why? have you had any unpleasant dealings? 

what would the ideal recruiting agency look like? 

best,
david koosis

-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
ISC Consultants NYC 212-477-8800 Training/Consulting Since 1973 isc@panix.com
From: leo@isi.itfs.nsk.su (Kouznetsov Dmitrij)
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
Subject: Help needed. I've been asked strange things by the contracting company.
Summary: .
Keywords: help, contract, programming
Date: 22 Dec 92 19:32:53 GMT
Reply-To: leo@isi.itfs.nsk.su
Organization: Institute of Informatics System

Excuse me, friends,

I've been asked by a Company looking for the organization or staff
in exUSSR to contract as software engineers/researchers/developers.
They're willing to talk with private or governmental company.

But I don't like some points in their Questionaire, and
really wish somebody to advice me how proceed with it:



>Subject         WANTED - S/W development organisations
>                Questionnaire

    [ Stuff deleted here and below ]

>Please give us the details of your XXXX (and other in the West)
>partners / customers.
?????????????????????????????????????????


>                        QUESTIONNAIRE -
>        PROFILE OF A CANDIDATE SOFTWARE DEVELOPMENT CONTRACTOR

>                       A.  Organisation

>3.      Organisation's legal status (type, owned by etc.)
>4.      Total revenues in the last financial year (in local
>        currency and $; also specify official and - if existent
>        - black market $ rate today)

>                        D.  Products

>29.     List your major software development contracts - client name,
>        product(s), size, period, etc.
>30.     Give full name, address, phone, fax of three clients
>        (successfully terminated contracts)

I don't know is it legal to ask and to give the information of the
company customers?

Yes we had some ashore customers last year, but I can't give such
information easy to anybody without agreement with my customers.

Please tell me if I wrong and what to do with such questions.

Thank you very much in advance

Director of Horizon Programming Satellite Corp,
Leo
(Dm. Kouznetsov)
--- 
--
Leo (Dm Kouznetsov)       leo@isi.itfs.nsk.su 
phone: +7 (383-2) 355067  fax: +7 (383-2) 323494/357942
From: monty@osiris.cso.uiuc.edu (John Montgomery)
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
Subject: Job openings in Hongkong/Singapore/Gulf
Date: 30 Dec 92 21:59:58 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana

Does anybody have any idea is there any newsgroup for job openings in
Hongkong or Singapore, Dubai, Malasiya, and the countries like those.

Thanks in advance


Devesh
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
From: kd1hz@anomaly.sbs.com (Michael P. Deignan)
Subject: Re: Inappropriate responses to job posting
Organization: Small Business Systems, Incorporated, Smithfield, RI 02917
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 16:07:39 GMT

klee@wsl.dec.com (Ken Lee) writes:

>Things like:  "no entry-level
>positions are available" seem to work a little.

Not.

I once posted a job requiring 7 to 10 years of experience. 95% of the replies
I got were from people with 7 to 10 minutes of experience.

MD
-- 
--  Michael P. Deignan                      / Sex is hereditary. If your 
--  Domain: mpd@anomaly.sbs.com            /  parents never had it, chances 
-- AT&TNet: +1 401 273 4669               /   are you won't either...
-- Telebit: +1 401 455 0347              /
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
From: dsholtsi@csl36h.csl.ncsu.edu (Doug Holtsinger)
Subject: Re: Question about placement of employment information on a resume
Reply-To: dsholtsi@csl36h.csl.ncsu.edu (Doug Holtsinger)
Organization: North Carolina State University
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1992 18:21:48 GMT

In article <ssimmons.725548491@convex.convex.com> 
ssimmons@convex.com (Steve Simmons) writes:
>
>> The problem is that my work experience is listed in
>> chronological order, and my full-time work experience
>> is preceeded by a lot of part-time academic experience.

> Your job history should be in chronological order; however, it 
> should be reverse order with your last job first.  Most people 
> are interested in what you've been doing for the last few years. 

Er, gosh, I meant to say that my full-time work experience is
in reverse chronological order. On the page, my full-time work 
experience is physically preceeded by a lot of part-time 
academic experience.  So when the interviewer sees my part-
time experience, I think they probably tend to ignore the
remainder of my resume.  Sorry if I was unclear.

Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
From: jon@netcom.com (John L Davis)
Subject: Re: Inappropriate responses to job posting
Summary: Concurrence
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 01:47:54 GMT


Thank you. You said it much better than I. You just can't brush people off like all these people are ttelling us we shoulld!
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
From: blowfish@carina.unm.edu (rON.)
Subject: Re: Inappropriate responses to job posting
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 92 06:43:28 GMT
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque

In article <1992Dec22.140205@ardor.enet.dec.com> kannan@ardor.enet.dec.com (Nari Kannan) writes:
>Writing here
>exhorting people to apply only if they fit every requirement is
>a waste of time, IMHO.
>You cannot use a free open common forum and still expect to
>get extremely specific applications.  If you want to achieve
>that level of specificity, then advertise in places targeted
>towards that particular audience. 

You've utterly managed to miss the point. The people hiring aren't complaing
about people who are closely qualified sending them resumes, in fact, I would
be willing to bet that most of them would actively >encourage< those who are
even just semi-qualified for the job to send a resume in.
What they've been complaining about is people who send in resumes for positions
they have >no qualifications for<. People who do tech writing sending in
resumes to programming positions, for example (probably not as extreme, but
I think the point is made...). And then having the gall to send those
resumes without even the courtesy of a cover letter! You're damn right they
can be upset. And it >is< a waste of their time, and yours.
One final point- USENET is >not< a 'free open common forum'- it is a forum of
by and for computer users, there are very few people who actively participate
in the USENET system who are not technically oriented. IMO, Misc.jobs.offered
is one of the best places to find a pool of qualified candidates for
technical positions.
r.
From: primeaux@carlsberg.cs.utk.edu (David Primeaux)
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
Subject: Re: Northerners moving south - questions
Date: 1 Jan 1993 15:51:19 GMT
Organization: University of Tennessee, Knoxville - Department of Computer Science
Distribution: world
Reply-To: primeaux@carlsberg.cs.utk.edu (David Primeaux)
NNTP-Posting-Host: carlsberg.cs.utk.edu

In article <Jan.1.10.09.23.1993.17564@cadenza.rutgers.edu>, masticol@cadenza.rutgers.edu (Steve Masticola) writes:
|> I'm investigating a couple of job leads in the South - too many places
|> to mention meaningfully - and would like to hear from any Northerners
|> who've made such a move
|> 
|> Specifically, have you had trouble with the, ah, insularity of the
|> natives? 

*natives*?  Give me a break!  What are southerners, anyway, some different 
species?

|> Was it possible to adjust after a period of time, or is one
|> always pegged as a damyankee? 

If one always acts like a damn yankee, one will probably always be treated
like one.  Specifically, I have known people who have moved into the south
and have done nothing but complain at every opportunity about how it isn't the 
north.  A little appreciation of what *was* around them would have gone far to
improve their acceptance.

|> It seems like a serious quality-of-life
|> issue. 
|> 
|> Thanks for the help,
|> 
|> - Steve "actually, I was born south of the Mason-Dixon line, by about
|>          five miles" masticol@cs.rutgers.edu.

- David "actually I was born (in the USA) south of the south, by about
            200  miles" primeaux@cs.utk.edu
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
From: rschmitt@shearson.com (Robert Schmitt)
Subject: Position in Buffalo, NY
Reply-To: rschmitt@shearson.com
Organization: Lehman Brothers, Inc.
Distribution: na
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 14:21:41 GMT

Experienced UNIX/C/C++/Graphics programming looking for work in the Buffalo, NY
area (I am a native son).  Willing to talk with placement firms, but prefer
direct company contact.  Please respond by email.

Bob
------------------------------------------------------------------
Robert A. Schmitt              RESolution Graphics Inc
Data Vis, nD Graphics          rschmitt@shearson.com
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
From: bryanr@cbnewse.cb.att.com (bryan.m.richardson)
Subject: Re: transform a resume
Organization: AT&T
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 20:55:29 GMT

In article <ARA.92Dec30213142@camelot.ai.mit.edu> ara@zurich.ai.mit.edu (Allan Adler) writes:
[lots deleted]

>I think I am very different from your friend. No job
>ever made me as happy as poverty and unemployment have. To me the basic
>question is: why are these the choices? 


Because you can't get something for nothing.  Or, in more verbose terms, 
just because you produce something you think has value doesn't
mean you should automatically be rewarded for it.  You will get
the rewards (non-poverty?) only if someone else agrees it has value
and is willing to give you something for it.

These are the choices because most people would choose a life of
non-poverty and non-employment if they could.  Unfortunately, 
nothing would be produced and we would all be much worse off (dead?).
Since I have chosen non-poverty and employment, I do not wish to
support via taxes & subsidization a class of people who feel they
are entitled to non-employment and non-poverty.

An employed capitalist,

Bryan Richardson
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
From: baker-j@news.cis.ohio-state.edu (john t baker)
Subject: Ethics Question
Organization: The Ohio State University Department of Computer and Information Science
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1993 22:09:13 GMT


I would like some opinions on the following:

The company I work for offers a $150bonus for proffering candidates that they
actually hire and stay with the company for 90 days.  I would assume that they
think that anyone I refer in this way I personally know their ability level.
My company does not have net access.  What if I post positns open to 
misc.jobs.offered and forward the replies I receive as referrals?  I can see
myself heartily increasing my salary in this way.

Please tell me your opinions by posting or sending email.
__
John Baker
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
From: ilana@kiowa.scd.ucar.edu (Ilana Stern)
Subject: Re: transform a resume
Organization: NCAR/UCAR
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 16:50:26 GMT

In article <ARA.92Dec31072235@camelot.ai.mit.edu>, ara@zurich.ai.mit.edu (Allan Adler) writes:
 
>My preference for one month's work is based on the fact that I am committed
>to my own research in mathematics and the perceptions that:
>(1) most companies will not be sufficiently sympathetic to my needs as a 
>    scholar
>(2) It is very difficult for me to contain the distraction that working at
>    even a part time job would cause me unless I confine it to a fixed
>    short interval of time each year. Someone else might not have that problem.
>    Since I do, I have to take it in into consideration before accepting a job.
>
>The insistence on $6000 net from the work is based on the simple fact that that
>is what I need to pay my food and rent.
> 
>It's all very simple.

In that case, it should be obvious to you that in order to achieve this
goal, you need to present some skill that an employer believes is "worth" 
$6000 for one month.  It's all very simple.  Assuming you file a W-4 
stating that you won't make the tax floor, that's $72,000 a year equivalent.
What can you do that's worth this money?

Metawork may be beneath your notice, but foisting it off on the net is
even worse:  do you expect us to perform tasks in the expectation of
getting someone *else* work?

-- 
/\    "I'm only a human girl person.  I ain't always perfect."--Rambling Rose
  \_][ <--NCAR Ilana Stern dod#009 r.b. cliff swallow ilana@ncar.ucar.edu    
      \______________________________________________________________________
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
From: ara@zurich.ai.mit.edu (Allan Adler)
Subject: Re: transform a resume
Organization: M.I.T. Artificial Intelligence Lab.
	<ARA.92Dec31072235@camelot.ai.mit.edu>
	<1992Dec31.165026.26040@ncar.ucar.edu>
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 18:36:05 GMT

Ilana Stern, in reply to some of my comments, writes:

   In that case, it should be obvious to you that in order to achieve this
   goal, you need to present some skill that an employer believes is "worth" 
   $6000 for one month.  It's all very simple.  Assuming you file a W-4 
   stating that you won't make the tax floor, that's $72,000 a year 
   equivalent. What can you do that's worth this money?

I'm not asking for $72,000/year. I am asking for $6000 for one month.
That means it does not cost the employer $72,000, it costs him/her/it $6000.
Furthermore, it is not for me to decide what is worth it to an employer.
That is the employer's job to decide. If your point is that this concept
is not viable, you might be right. I'm just exploring it.

Ms. Stern continues:

   Metawork may be beneath your notice, but foisting it off on the net is
   even worse:  do you expect us to perform tasks in the expectation of
   getting someone *else* work?

In case anyone missed my original posting, metawork is defined as
follows. "Work" is work you do in the hope of being rewarded with money.
"Metawork" is work you do in the hope of being rewarded with work.

I don't recall saying that metawork was beneath my notice. I did say:
(1) that in some professions metawork is cynically exploited by
    employers.
(2) that I did not have time to spend on an all out job search.

Obviously, no one is under any obligation to do anything on my behalf.

There is, however, the interesting question of whether there is a place
for someone like me in the economy. This is an open forum for discussion
and I am approaching it in that spirit. 

Allan Adler
ara@altdorf.ai.mit.edu