HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: agr00@ccc.amdahl.com (Anthony G Rose)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Mormons are not Christians
Date: 8 Oct 92 04:37:15 GMT
Reply-To: agr00@JUTS.ccc.amdahl.com (Anthony G Rose)
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA

In article <1992Oct6.020716.26998@cs.yale.edu> rescorla@rtnmr.chem.yale.edu (Eric Rescorla) writes:
>In article <cfhR02OR24a101@JUTS.ccc.amdahl.com> agr00@JUTS.ccc.amdahl.com (Anthony G Rose) writes:
>>If you get on the wrong plane you will arrive in the wrong city!  If you
>>sincerely believe in the wrong Christ, you will end up in the wrong
>>eternity.
>How far does this go, Mr. Rose?
>Your statement implies that anyone who deviates in the slightest from
>correct doctrine(or at least correct Christology) is damned. Is this
>correct?
>-Ekr
>
>-- 
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Eric Rescorla, DoD#431 (Nighthawk S)              rescorla@rtnmr.chem.yale.edu
>Former chemist now CM400 mechanic                 ekr@eitech.com(preferred)
>   "Base 8 is just like base 10, really...if you're missing two fingers."

You are adding words that I am not saying!  What I am saying is that if
you believe and trust in all your heart in the wrong thing, then you are
wrong.  You can be right in every area of theology, but if you are wrong
on the area of who God is and who Jesus is, then you are wrong enough to
lose you soul for eternity.  Other doctines are periphal.  That is what
I am saying.

What matters is:  to you , who is Jesus?
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
From: cotera@woods.ulowell.edu
Subject: Re: God created the Word?
Organization: University of Lowell
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1992 19:12:54 GMT

In article <29013@nntp_server.ems.cdc.com>, pwhite@ems.cdc.com (Peter White) writes:
> In article <1992Oct9.120648.1@woods.ulowell.edu>, cotera@woods.ulowell.edu writes:
> -|> Can anyone explain the following verse in terms of the Trinity (note: I am not
> -|> a JW):
> -|>    The Lord possessed (created) me (the Word) in the beginning of His way,
> -|>    before his works of old.
> -|>                           Proverbs 8:22
> -|> --Ray Cote 
> I thought it was pretty clear that the the "me" in the verse is "wisdom" and
> not "the Word". So, I don't look at it as having anything to do with confirming
> or denying the Trinity. 
> 
> I'm curious to understand why it seems to you to imply "the Word" and not
> "wisdom".
> 
> Peter White

Thanks. Somehow I had missed Proverbs 8:1.  But this leads to another question. 
In John 1:1 the Greek word logos is translated as "Word." However, a teaching
of Greek philosophers at that time (and probably before) was about this thing
called the logos.  This can be translated as word, or reason, or wisdom.  This
suggests that Jesus, the Word, is also wisdom. Proverbs 8:35 says:
     For whoso findeth me findeth life, and shall obtain favour of the Lord
Sounds a lot like a description of Jesus to me. So could it be that the Word is
wisdom.
--Ray Cote
From: pwhite@ems.cdc.com (Peter White)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: QUESTION
Date: 12 Oct 92 17:35:38 GMT
Reply-To: pwhite@ems.cdc.com
Organization: Empros Systems International, a division of CDC

In article <92283.160218IK20050@MAINE.MAINE.EDU>, IK20050@MAINE.MAINE.EDU writes:

|> What I want to know is, if Mormonism is a false religion, and
|> Joseph Smith was a false prophet, then:
|> 
|> 1) Why is Mormonism one of the fastest growing religions in the world?
|> 2) Why are 99.9% of Mormons successful/prosperous?
|>    (Look at Utah....only 2% unemployment or something like that!)
|> 3) Why does reading the Book of Mormon bring you good luck (or does it)?
|> 
|> If someone could please answer these questions, I would be VERY
|> appreciative, as I am very confused.  Alot of things aren't
|> making sense to me.
|> 
|> Thanks in advance.....................Andie.
Andie,

Here's my take:

1) The Bible tells us that at the end of time there will be lots of deceptions in
the world. There will be some things that are able to deceive even the elect, if
that is possible. There is a warning in the Bible that even if an angel from
heaven comes and preaches another gospel, we should not accept it. So simply
because a lot of people are accepting something doesn't make it the truth. Nor
does it make it not the truth. (I've heard regularly on our Christian radio
station that Christianity is the fastest growing of all religions. So if the
growth rate of a religion was related to its veracity, one would have to opt for
Christianity.) 

One of the biggest problems I ran into in assesing the Mormon religion was that
it represented itself to be talking about the same God as the one in the Bible.
My problem is that the God of the Bible doesn't make mistakes, so he wouldn't 
have needed to send an angel to clear up the mistakes he had made in a 
previous communication.

2. It seems to me that just because people who accept a religion turn out to do 
well materially doesn't either prove or disprove the religion. I think the reason 
so many Mormans are successful and prosperous is because they follow Biblical
principles, not because they follow principles that are peculiar to the Mormon
religion. The Bible says that rain falls on both the just and the unjust. This is
not to say that material things are of no importance, but it is to say that its
not a good measure of a person's spiritual standing with God. There are decidedly
evil people who have lots of money.

3. I think the answer to question 2 applies somewhat here. Things going well is
not the best measure of a person's spiritual standing with God. The Bible says
that we should expect persecution and tribulation. Based on that, if things
always go well, I should call my religion into question, and not say that
things going well proves that I've found a religion that's true.

Hope that helps,

Peter White
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
From: HOLFELTZ@LSTC2VM.stortek.com
Subject: Re: Mormons, a different Jesus
Organization: StorageTek SW Engineering
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 14:29:01 GMT

In article <13OCT199200494013@acad3.alaska.edu>
ksjwr@acad3.alaska.edu (REDELSS JOHN W) writes:
 
>
>In article <1992Oct12.202607.16726@organpipe.uug.arizona.edu>, brian@lpl.arizona.edu (Brian Ceccarelli 602/621-9615) writes...
>>
>>
>>     I follow the one that was born in Bethlehem (Matthew 2:1,
>>Luke 2:4).
>>
>>     I think that the Mormons follow the one that was born in
>>Jerusalem (Alma 7:10).
>>
>>
>>Please, please, if you are going to follow Jesus, make sure
>>you got the right one.
>
>Picky, picky, picky
 
More like quibble, quibble, quibble!!
 
Does lettuce mean food or money?  Or was that bread?  Language
is such a strange thing.
 
A poor Wayfaring Stranger [some say, a Strange One] in a strange land,
 
 +---------------------------------------------------------------------+
 | Disclaimer: Not my employer's opinion; probably                     |
 |             not your's either; and                                  |
 |             only mine, when authorized!                             |
 |                                                                     |
 |                                   Try: Roger_Holfeltz@stortek.com   |
 +---------------------------------------------------------------------+
 
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
From: tensmekl@infonode.ingr.com (Kermit Tensmeyer)
Subject: Re: Mormons are not Christians
Organization: Intergraph Corporation, Huntsville, AL.
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 13:39:34 GMT

In article <f0eB02eP24VZ01@JUTS.ccc.amdahl.com> agr00@JUTS.ccc.amdahl.com (Anthony G Rose) writes:
>In article <1992Oct6.161635.14116@infonode.ingr.com> tensmekl@infonode.ingr.com (Kermit Tensmeyer) writes:
>>In article <1992Oct6.114200.13090@phillip.edu.au> lbarrass@phillip.edu.au writes:
>>>
>>>
>>> If you reject the virgin birth, you are rejecting a SINLESS saviour. To reject
>>>Jesus as sinless, you are rejecting His ability to be a perfect sacrifice
>>>without blemish.
>>> 
>>
>>As I understand this common fallicy, all who are born via the mechnism of
>>sex are born guilty and thus seperated from God at Birth. This fallicy
>>requires that Jesus to be born with out Sin so that He could be a Perfect
>>Sacrifice?. The Catholic Doctrine of Immaculate Conception takes this
>>idea one step further, Mary was not born in the normal way and that she
>>was without sin, so that her Son could not be _contaminated by sin by
>>being born by her.
>>
>>Mormons have a simpler solution to the overall problem: Children are
>>born without sin. Children who die with out baptism before they are
>>accountable are believe to return to the presence of God.
>
>Can you back this up with Scripture?  What age is acountable?  Eight
>years old?  Is this in the Bible?


 And the precise support for the belief in children being sinless is
 one of those that comes from the BoM. 

 The requirment that children are born in Sin is Augistine and Post-Augustine.
 It is a non-Biblical doctrine perpertrated ;-) on the opiated masses.

 The requirement that Jesus being born without Sin, and living a life with
 out Sin is a biblical assumption that LDS also believe without such
 non-biblical heresy such as children being born inheirently sinfull.

As for when an individual is accountable, that's another judgement call.
There are times when my 7 year old son acts as if he were really acountable
and then there was last night.... :-)



-- 
         Kermit Tensmeyer                         | Intergraph Corporation
Life is sometimes a bowl of Cherries; Watch out for the pits;
   klt@kt8127.b23a.ingr.com                       | 
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
From: jakec@ralvmm.vnet.ibm.com (Jake Coughlin)
Subject: Re: Family values defined
Originator: jakec@ralvmm.vnet.ibm.com
Date: Wed, 07 Oct 92 14:17:09 GMT
Organization: IBM T. J. Watson Research

rescorla@rtnmr.chem.yale.edu (Eric Rescorla):
> I can think of at least one reason. There is a lot of prejudice in
> the universe. It may well be(not saying that it is) true that say
> using a homosexual in one's advertising campaign might not be good
> for sales.

gee, the movie, television, music, theatre, and hair-dressing
industries seem to be doing pretty well as does clinton's
political campaign...  it might just be that society doesn't
know a big, bad homosexual when one bites it on the ass.

-- 
Queer Without A Cause!
Jason Coughlin ( jakec@ralvmm.vnet.ibm.com )
"I find myself suddenly in the world, and I recognize that I have one
right alone: that of demanding human behavior of the other." -- Fanon
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
From: drieux@wetware.com (drieux, just drieux)
Subject: am I missing the point here?
Organization: Castle WetWare Philosopher and Sniper
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 06:29:14 GMT

wcsa@cbnews.cb.att.com (willard.smith) writes:
] 
] Based on the 1990 Uniform Crime Report issued from the FBI the following
] statistics are available:
] 
] 	(per 100,000)
] 
] Crime		Nat'l Rate	Utah Rate
] ~~~~~		~~~~~~~~~~	~~~~~~~~~
] Murder		    9.4		  3.0
] Rape		   41.2		 37.8
] Robbery		  257.0		 56.9
] Aggrav Assult	  424.1		186.3
] Burglary	1,235.9		880.6
] 
] The overall statistic for violent crime is 731.8 per 100,000 Nationally
] and only 283.9 in the state of Utah.


compared with certain civilized countries in the
world it is clearly obvious that Utah is a
sespit of moral decadence.....


Or did I miss your point?


ciao
drieux

ps: I have been to utah, and I can understand
why the stats are low..... There ain't squat
all for miles and miles.....



-- 
Modern Day Problems:

ME? engage in Hyperbole?
I have rarely been more than a first Order Function!!!!
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
From: agr00@ccc.amdahl.com (Anthony G Rose)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Heresy was (Re: Mormons are not Christians)
Date: 13 Oct 92 03:10:36 GMT
Reply-To: agr00@JUTS.ccc.amdahl.com (Anthony G Rose)
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA

In article <1992Oct12.151300.9313@infonode.ingr.com> tensmekl@infonode.ingr.com (Kermit Tensmeyer) writes:
>In article <75WH025l25aj01@JUTS.ccc.amdahl.com> agr00@JUTS.ccc.amdahl.com (Anthony G Rose) writes:
>>>
>>>
>>> LDS: All who become accountable have chosen sin, except for Jesus who
>>>      did not sin.
>>>
>>> Rose and other Evag. "Christians":  Even little children are inheirently
>>>      Sinfull. It is their nature, because of a sexual act on th part of 
>>>      their parents.
>>
>>I nor anyone else here ever said that we were born into sin bacause of
>>the sexual act of our parents!  You added that part friend.  I said that
>>we were born into sin.  I said nothing about marital sex, or parental sex.
>
>>Where did you get that?  You are misrepresenting ME!
>
> Your arguement was that if Jesus had be born of Mary and any phyical act of
> God (including your fanciful claim of LDS - God had Sex with Mary) then
> Jesus would have been as Sinful as the rest of us.
>
> That was _your_ claim wasn't it?

NO, it wasn't!  Do you ever read what I post?
From: cardell@lysator.liu.se (Mikael Cardell)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: New mailing list
Summary: Announcement of new mailing list at zendo-request@lysator.liu.se
Keywords: zen buddhism practise zazen
Date: 13 Oct 92 13:05:06 GMT
Organization: Lysator Academic Computer Society, Linkoping University, Sweden

Intention

Universal Zendo is a mailing list discussing the practising of
Buddhism, especially, but not limited to, Zen Buddhism. The list will
take the place of the Real Life zendo in net.land. In the list all
discussion of practical problems of zazen or everyday life will fit. 

How to get on

To get a subsricption to the list, send mail to:

  zendo-request@lysator.liu.se

stating that you would like to get on. If you would like to get *off*
please send to the same address. 

Posting

To post to the actual list, write to:

  zendo@lysator.liu.se

Your letter will then be distributed to all the people subscribing to
the list. 

If there's any problems please notify me via zendo-request,
zendo-owner of my ordinary address:

Mikael Cardell <cardell@lysator.liu.se>

Gassho,
cardell

-- 
mikael cardell <cardell@lysator.liu.se>
      buddham saranam gocchami!
      dhamman saranam gocchami!
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
From: ksand@apple.com (Kent Sandvik)
Subject: Re: Stop thinking? (Was: Why I am an atheist)
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 21:11:44 GMT
Organization: Apple
Followup-To: talk.religion.misc

In article <1bd3kuINNnl0@cascade.ens.tek.com>, davidh@cascade.ens.tek.com
(David Hatcher) wrote:
> 
> In article <ksand-081092122142@wintermute.apple.com> ksand@apple.com (Kent Sandvik) writes:
> >According to the theist doctrines we are created in the image of God.
> >Think about this...
> 
>   Please, when conversing with Christians, do not lump all theist into 
> the same pot as Christians. Think about this...

Sorry, I forgot the mysticism falang! Then again don't you have the
perception that we could unite with God. I guess it's a different
thread all together. I should have stated "Based on the Christian
doctrine" instead of using the more loose term 'theist'. My 
apologies.

Kent
-------------------
Kent Sandvik (UUCP: ....!apple!ksand; INTERNET: ksand@apple.com)
DISCLAIMER: Private activities on the Net.
From: slhw4@cc.usu.edu (Jason Hunsaker)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: QUESTION
Date: 10 Oct 92 18:26:35 MDT
Organization: Utah State University

In article <92283.160218IK20050@MAINE.MAINE.EDU>,
 <IK20050@MAINE.MAINE.EDU> writes:
[...]
> 1) Why is Mormonism one of the fastest growing religions in the world?

I don't know.                                      
I could be that it has some kind of appeal that the alternatives
do not.

> 2) Why are 99.9% of Mormons successful/prosperous?
>    (Look at Utah....only 2% unemployment or something like that!)

This is a bit much to claim.
The most recent Utah unemployment statistic I heard was 5%.

Also, Utah statistics are not necessarily representative of
Mormon culture in general.

As one gets out into the hinter-lands of Utah the concentration
approaches 95-95% Mormons.  But in the urban areas it is more
around 60-75%.

The last statsistic I heard for the Salt Lake area (does not
include Provo area or Ogden area) was 50% Mormons.

Also, you need tell us how you are determining who fits into the
category of "successful/prosperous" and why.

> 3) Why does reading the Book of Mormon bring you good luck (or does it)?

This is another interesting claim.
What you you mean by "good luck" ?

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Jason Hunsaker  -|-  Logan, Utah  -|-  Internet: slhw4@cc.usu.edu
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc,alt.atheism,talk.philosophy.misc
From: jakec@ralvmm.vnet.ibm.com (Jake Coughlin)
Subject: Re: OCA Initiative (was: Family values defined)
Originator: jakec@ralvmm.vnet.ibm.com
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 92 13:42:01 GMT
Organization: IBM T. J. Watson Research

arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee):
> You seem to have convinced yourself that this odd technique is the only way
> to garden.

and you seem to have convinced yourself that the weeding of
a flowerbed is important in the issues surrounding the OCA.
take it to rec.gardening, please -- i, for one, am not
comfortable with this ludicrous comparison between the
denial of my rights through moral and religious persecution
and the ecosystem of pretty pieces of cellulose, especially
when i can't shake hands with the gardener.  SHEESH!
-- 
Queer Without A Cause!
Jason Coughlin ( jakec@ralvmm.vnet.ibm.com )
"I find myself suddenly in the world, and I recognize that I have one
right alone: that of demanding human behavior of the other." -- Fanon
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
From: bunner@vms.macc.wisc.edu (Dana A. Bunner)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Mormon Usenet Forum
Date: 13 Oct 92 04:43:36 GMT
Organization: University of Wisconsin Academic Computing Center

Ok, it's time for a show of hands.  How many of you who voted against
putting the LDS discussion into a unique USENET forum now regret it?
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
From: ACUS10@WACCVM.SPS.MOT.COM (Mark Fuller)
Subject: Re: Mormons are not Christians
Organization: Motorola Inc.
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1992 17:09:38 GMT

From: press2@cbnewsd.cb.att.com (barry.o.olson)
>
>My response would be, "Where does this come from. Where is there
>any support(no pun)for this devil repellant"?

I beleive the answer is that the LDS holy garments come from
Joseph Smith.  I think your original point is a valid one, since
Joseph claimed to restore the 'endowments', I would expect the
apostles were wearing them -- yet there is no mention of it
in the Bible.  Or, maybe the answer can be summed up as Ferguson
did, 'Joseph spoofed us all'.  It's hard to beleive the LDS
father god, who lived an earth life on another planet and wore
devil repelling garments, is the God of the Bible.

Mark
<standard disclaimer>
From: rpitts@emperor.gatech.edu (Richard Pitts)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Rich men and Heaven
Date: 15 Oct 92 19:16:40 GMT
Organization: CERL-EE, Georgia Institue of Technology

In article <ksand-141092195330@wintermute.apple.com> ksand@apple.com (Kent Sandvik) writes:
|In article <71230@hydra.gatech.EDU>, rpitts@emperor.gatech.edu (Richard
|Pitts) wrote:
|> In article <ksand-131092141503@wintermute.apple.com> ksand@apple.com (Kent Sandvik) writes:
...
|> |culture. Meanwhile Paul gathered more forces and took control from
|> |the disciples themselves (!).
|> 
|> Give some references for this, please.
|
|Read Acts.

I have - enlighten me - give me a chapter and hopefully a verse,
so I can see to what you are referring.
 
|> Let me ask this one more directly.  Who independently confirmed
|> your fathers'cousin's visions???????  Paul's vision was independently
|> confirmed.
|
|As were Joseph Smith's. So you support mormonism now when you
|were revealed, right?

I'm not familar with Smith's independent confirmation.  Does Smith's
vision jive with the Bible?  If it is a different gospel given by
a man or even an angel, Paul tells us that it is wrong.

Let us look at some words on visions:

   Col 2:18   Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship
      of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great
      detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up
      with idle notions.
   Col 2:19   He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body,
      supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God
      causes it to grow.

|Kent

For Christ and His Kingdom,
Richard Pitts
-- 
rpitts@cerl.gatech.edu       |    
Atlanta, GA                --|-- 
                        -|-  |  -|-
                         |   |   |
From: dic5340@hertz.njit.edu (David Charlap)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: *Jesus of Nazareth*
Date: 9 Oct 92 20:16:43 GMT
Organization: New Jersey Institute of Technology, Newark, N.J.

In article <9210082209.AA00872@hrt213.brooks.af.mil.brooks.af.mil> tjm@hrt213.brooks.af.mil (Tim Miller) writes:
>	As a side note, some sections from Catholic Liturgy you all
>might find amusing:
>
>	"On the night He was betrayed, he took bread and gave you thanks
>and praise..."
>	"He took the cup, again He gave you thanks and praise, gave the
>cup to his disciples and said..."
>
>	Sound familiar to anyone?

Isn't it rather well-known that the last supper was a seder?
-- 
David Charlap         |"there aren't 50,000 things for which it's worth writing
dic5340@hertz.njit.edu| software; and the computer industry doesn't have enough
----------------------+ programmers to create that much good software.
Therefore, most of it must be worthless" -- Boris Beizer "The Frozen Keyboard"
From: rescorla@rtnmr.chem.yale.edu (Eric Rescorla)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Mormons are not Christians
Date: 9 Oct 92 14:34:11 GMT
Organization: Rescorla for himself.

In article <24LM02pw25ca01@JUTS.ccc.amdahl.com> agr00@JUTS.ccc.amdahl.com (Anthony G Rose) writes:
>In article <1992Oct6.020716.26998@cs.yale.edu> rescorla@rtnmr.chem.yale.edu (Eric Rescorla) writes:
>>In article <cfhR02OR24a101@JUTS.ccc.amdahl.com> agr00@JUTS.ccc.amdahl.com (Anthony G Rose) writes:
>>>If you get on the wrong plane you will arrive in the wrong city!  If you
>>>sincerely believe in the wrong Christ, you will end up in the wrong
>>>eternity.
>>How far does this go, Mr. Rose?
>>Your statement implies that anyone who deviates in the slightest from
>>correct doctrine(or at least correct Christology) is damned. Is this
>>correct?
>You are adding words that I am not saying!
I used a question mark. I'm trying to get you to clarigy.

> What I am saying is that if
>you believe and trust in all your heart in the wrong thing, then you are
>wrong.  You can be right in every area of theology, but if you are wrong
>on the area of who God is and who Jesus is, then you are wrong enough to
>lose you soul for eternity.  Other doctines are periphal.  That is what
>I am saying.
I don't see how you're saying anything different from what I said.
You write
(If you are wrong on the area of why God is(theology) or who Jesus
is (Christology) then you are wrong enough to lose your soul for
eternity.)

Is your position really that anyone who does not agree with your
Christology is damned? This seems to be what you are saying, sir.
-Ekr


-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eric Rescorla, DoD#431 (Nighthawk S)              rescorla@rtnmr.chem.yale.edu
Former chemist now CM400 mechanic                 ekr@eitech.com(preferred)
   "Base 8 is just like base 10, really...if you're missing two fingers."