HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: dflynn@aludra.usc.edu (Daniel Flynn)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Re: Authority on the Church...
Date: 6 Oct 1992 08:09:41 -0700
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
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URSIC@BEAST.CS.HH.AB.COM writes:

>So, Cardinal Mahoney may listen and respond to our questions on this
>listserve, maybe my excommunication papers will arrive afterall:-)

>Anybody know anything about his views, my assumption would be that if he
>was appointed to Cardinal, he must have "played the game" rather well and
>his views would be rather conservative to allign himself with Rome.

No offense was taken by your comments... My views are rather simple to a
certain degree... I am an agnostic Catholic! Over the years, I have finally
accepted the fact that I am too stupid to know whether there is a God or
not, but I hold onto Catholicism as an insurrance policy.

I presented this news group to Cardinal Mahoney, because far from your
assumptions, he is not very Conservative. As a matter of record he kinda
veers to the left, although not enough to raise eyebrows. On some issues,
there is the usually conservative stance that any religious organization
must take based strictly on morality. But beyond that, his Eminance is 
not one who would be mistook for the historical extreme right Prince of
the Church.

Furthermore, Cardinal Mahoney is very progressive, and this new medium
(to him at least) has fully caught his attention. I would try to ask as many
questions of this man as possible, because assuming the rapture does not
happen in the life of our current Holy Father, the we are possible looking
at the next Pope. Granted it sounds strange that an american could have
a shot, but those in the know bank on it.

Furthermore, I don't think the questions should reflect on anything which
would envoke current "church dogma" as you put it. Although without a doubt
any questions on those type of subjects would definately have an answer not
based upon speculation. I would say that questions regarding the mysteries
of the church would be on track... The Fatima topic brought about interest!

We can find the correct Church dogma anywhere we look, from the parish priest
to the Pope. Therefore, I would think that you would use this opportunity
to ask questions which can't really be answered by Fr. John at the local
parish. Although I wouln't presume to tell you what to do with your share of
the bandwidth.

Kim C. Callis
dflynn@aludra.usc.edu
From: joel@MSC.EDU ((Joel Neisen))
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Re: Bible Studies
Date: 2 Oct 92 12:08:56 GMT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU

At my parish we have several small groups running concurrently.
For the last year we have been using the Collegeville Commentary
and the Little Rock Scripture Study woorkbook.

These are printed at

The Liturgical Press
St. John's Abbey
Collegeville, MN 56321

The translation used in the commentary is NAB with Revised New Testament
so it is a bit different that the NAB translation that is used for the
scripture readings at Mass.  However the booklets do have a Nihili obstat,
Censor deputatus, and Imprimatur.

Joel Neisen                              joel@msc.edu
Minnesota Supercomputer Center          "Mock not the worn cloak"
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Date:         Thu, 1 Oct 1992 18:08:45 PDT
From:         FRANK@125LAW1.LAW.UCLA.EDU
Subject:      Re: jokes

  Ok here is another.

  This guy decides to paint his house.  Since he is going to buy his
paint in bulk he decides to cut a deal with the priest at St.
Hilary's to paint the church in exchange for half the cost.  The guy
buys all this paint but one thing leads to another and whens he's
finished with his house realizes he doesn't have enough to do the
entire Church.  Thinking about this for a while he decides to thin
the paint a bit to make it go farther.

  He finishes painting the Church on Saturday.  That evening the area
has the worst rain storm in years.  Worrying about the paint on the
Church he runs down to the parish in the middle of the night in all
the pouring rain.  When he gets to the Church he sees that all the
paint has washed off the walls.

  Getting down on his knees he asks God to forgive him when all of a
sudden there is this loud crash of thunder and he hears a voice call
out to him:  "REPAINT AND THIN NO MORE!"

  Frank
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Organization: Argus Consulting, Tucson, AZ
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Date:         Sun, 4 Oct 1992 01:15:34 -0700
From:         "(Gordon C. Zaft)" <zaft@CARITAS.COTDAZR.ORG>
Subject:      References on qual. for diaconate

	I found the reference I wanted:

	" A candidate for the permanent diaconate who is not married
is not to be admitted to the diaconate unless he has completed at least
twenty-five years of age; if the candidate is married, he is not to be
admitted to the permanent diaconate unless he has completed at
least thirty-five years of age and has the consent of his wife."

					Canon 1031.2

GZ

--
* Gordon Zaft     Argus Consulting  4500 E. Sunrise #N-6, Tucson, AZ 85718
* zaft@caritas.cotdazr.org | noao.edu!coyote!caritas!zaft
                 Semper fidelis Christi et Vicarii sui.
DAMN IT, I GOTTA GET OUTTA HERE!
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Date:         Sun, 27 Sep 1992 22:39:08 HST
From:         "(Len Howard)" <tas@PEGASUS.COM>
Subject:      Re: Belief
              (Sep 27, 12:45am)

And after almost 2000 years is it any surprise that we all may have
different problems of comprehension?

In faith,                         Len
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Date:         Sun, 4 Oct 1992 10:17:46 -0400
From:         "Nancy M. Piatkowski" <PIATKONM@SNYBUFVA.BITNET>
Subject:      St. Francis

We should remember and celebrate the feast of St. Francis today- as a reminder
to respect life, the earth and the universe- God creates it- we need to take
care of it for ourselves and our children-  be panentheistic- see God in
everyone and everything- today and all days
Nancy
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: jocallag@vyasa.helios.nd.edu (john ocallaghan)
Subject: Re:      RE: sinead o'connor
Organization: OUC, University of Notre Dame
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 21:51:43 GMT

In article <00961A20.510D4C20.13070@swdev.si.com> "Brian Tillman, Smiths Industries, VAX Support, x8425" <tillman@SWDEV.SI.COM> writes:
>The Pope certainly wasn't in the least hurt by the cited display, so my reaction
>would be "so, what.  She's entitled to her opinion."  The way I always approach
>any thing of this neature is to ask, "Is it true or false?"  If it is true, then
>I am wrong and must change who I am.  If it is false, it cannot stand.

I don't think it is quite clear what Ms. O'Connor was saying by tearing
up the pope's picture, so it is difficult to ask whether she was right or
wrong.  I had the misfortune of happening upon the last part of her song as
I was aimlessly flicking the channels with my remote control.
There are several ways, however, in which what she was doing was offensive.
1) She was not merely identifying someone with whom she disagrees, the expression of her face, and the movement of her hands in tearing up this picture, made
this an act of hate, which is entirely inappropriate for anyone, and being
a rock star does not alleviate this.      
2) Despite anyone's personal opinion of the pope as a person, with individual
characterisitics, that person occupies a role in our Church.  That role
is identifiable to anyone, and is one of the few identifiable roles left
that carries any weight-- the person who occupies that role is the visible
symbol of Catholic unity of sacramental life, belief, and teaching for the
Church throughout the world.  Like him or not, that is the role we believe
he has been chosen to occupy by the workings of the Holy Spirit within the
Church.  When she performed that action of hatred, she not only offended the
person who occupies that role, but she offends all Catholics by stiking at
the symbol of their unity.  We often forget the supernaturl claims of our 
Church, so let us not forget that, like him or not, this person having been
chosen is the Vicar of Christ on earth.(This is true regardless of the personal
sins of the person chosen.  Despite Peter's personal failings, how do you think
Christ would have reacted to someone spitting upon the man Christ chose to be
the Rock upon which he would build His Church?)\
I have many Protestant friends who I am sure are shocked and disgusted by what
she did, precisely because, though we have our differences over the role of
the bishop of Rome, most all of them recognize that the holder of that chair
is due a special respect.                   
But for us Catholics, the fact is that an attack upon the pope, again whether
we agree with him in any particular or not, whether we respect him as an 
individual Christian or not, whether we think he is a great sinner or not, is
an attack upon us, as well as, given what we believe about the Church, is an
attack upon all Christians everywhere.  She may not have intended this, but this is what she did.
IMHO
John
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: topcat@hardy.u.washington.edu (Thanh - Vincent)
Subject: Re: Women are unclean
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1992 02:25:53 GMT

hi folks

jesus christ was a man and during the eucharist the priest becomes jesus
(become may not be an appropriate word but i can't find one right now)
there is a latin term for this transformation but i can't remember it.
a woman can't be a priest because it wouldn't be "right" .  she can't be
jesus because jesus was a man...
anyway, you got the idea.  i hope.

vince
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Mon, 5 Oct 1992 12:08:14 EDT
From:         "Brian Tillman, Smiths Industries, VAX Support,
              x8425" <tillman@SWDEV.SI.COM>
Subject:      RE: Women, priesthood, and Canon Law

John R. (rickertj@athena.cas.vanderbilt.edu) writes about the difficulties with
canon law if the church were to consider the ordination of women.

Yes indeed, there would be a lot of difficulties, certainly in addition to what
you've described.  Every single canon that contained a reference to clergy would
have to be rewritten.  The Episcopal church  had to make tons of changes to
canon law when it began accepting the ordination of women.  It sometimes took
individual diocese a couple of years to make all the changes to canon law.

-----------------------------+--------------------------------
 Brian Tillman               | Internet: tillman@swdev.si.com
 Smiths Industries, Inc.     |           tillman_brian@si.com
 4141 Eastern Ave., MS129    | Hey, I said this stuff myself.
 Grand Rapids, MI 49518-8727 | My company has no part in it.
-----------------------------+--------------------------------
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Organization: The American University
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Sun, 4 Oct 1992 12:03:48 EDT
From:         Jim McIntosh <JIM@AMERICAN.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Secrets of Fatima
              3 Oct 1992 19:07:42 GMT from <pol30546@UXA.CSO.UIUC.EDU>

On Sat, 3 Oct 1992 19:07:42 GMT (Peder Larsen) said:
>	Has everyone heard about the Korean Pastor in California who
>says the end of the world will start on Oct. 28?  What are your opinions?

I think we'd better start getting our posts into catholic. There aren't
many days left, and there's a lot left to be debated.  :-)

Peace!

Jim McIntosh, SFO (jim@american.edu)
The American University
Washington DC 20016-8019 USA
From: zaft@CARITAS.COTDAZR.ORG ((Gordon C. Zaft))
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Indifferentism!
Date: 5 Oct 92 17:58:29 GMT
Organization: Argus Consulting, Tucson, AZ
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On Oct 4,  7:38pm, "(Steve VanDevender)" wrote:
}
} There are much more important issues to think about than what's
} going to happen to all those people who happen to have different
} religious beliefs than you do.  I would rather see a lot of
} people putting their effort into trying to respect other
} people's beliefs rather than worrying about how to convert them
} to "the truth".
}-- End of excerpt from "(Steve VanDevender)"

	Oooh!  Oooh!  Indifferentism!

	Seriously, Steve, are you saying that the Truth doesn't matter?
If it is the Truth, shouldn't we share it with others since it's a
free gift of God?  I'm not claiming we shouldn't be charitable
or that we should forcibly try to convert anyone, but sheesh!
It's important to respect others (they are children of God!) but it
is not a good idea to respect other's beliefs if they are wrong.
To put it a little better, it's not the loving thing to do to let
people dwell in lack of Truth when we could be sharing it with them.
Remember, Jesus said to 'go and make disciples of all nations..' He
didn't say 'go but don't talk about Me because you should respect
other's beliefs'.

GZ

--
* Gordon Zaft     Argus Consulting  4500 E. Sunrise #N-6, Tucson, AZ 85718
* zaft@caritas.cotdazr.org | noao.edu!coyote!caritas!zaft
                 Semper fidelis Christi et Vicarii sui.
The following statement is not true:
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Fri, 2 Oct 1992 14:15:33 EDT
From:         "Brian Tillman, Smiths Industries, VAX Support,
              x8425" <tillman@SWDEV.SI.COM>
Subject:      Re: sex

Anne-Marie Gorman (gorman@ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU) writes:

>If they had been
>brought up in a family ... that held, or at
>least upheld as the norm, Christian standards of behavior, and explained
>the reasons for them, then discipline now would seem more appropriate.
>
>Obviously I think that parents have the huge responsibility to educate
>their children on this (and other) matters

So, which is it?  How can the parent have a huge responsibility to educate when
you've just implied that they don't hold Christian standards?  If they do hold
Christian standards (who defines "christian"?  You?  Me?  The Church?  The
Bible?  Whose interpretation of the Bible?)  Then they already *are* educating
their children.  And, since they are good Christians, who are a part of this
society, there must be a fairly dominant Christian aspect to society already.

-----------------------------+--------------------------------
 Brian Tillman               | Internet: tillman@swdev.si.com
 Smiths Industries, Inc.     |           tillman_brian@si.com
 4141 Eastern Ave., MS129    | Hey, I said this stuff myself.
 Grand Rapids, MI 49518-8727 | My company has no part in it.
-----------------------------+--------------------------------
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Tue, 6 Oct 1992 21:58:46 -0400
From:         Eric James Ewanco <ewanco@MLO.DEC.COM>
Subject:      Re: Bishop Spong

I'd prefer not to start a debate on Spong -- but I have participated in such
debates on other media, read quotes from his book, seen the arguments on both
sides and what I conclude is this:  Bishop Spong's intent is to discredit
Scripture as Revelation while claiming to be faithful to it.  He talks out of
both corners of his mouth.  As far as I am concerned, his view of Scripture
is so weak, it renders Scripture useless.  He claims to love Scripture, and
claims to believe in it, but by what he says, he obviously doesn't believe it
to be inspired and inerrant in an orthodox way.

This is not to say that some fundamentalists abuse Scripture. But simply
because they get some things wrong does not mean we should take the opposite
extreme and view Scripture in such a context that it becomes impotent and
useless for any authoritative knowledge.

Maybe I'll catch up on the subject and the arguments presented in some files I
have access to, but dont' hold your breath I've got a lotta stuff to do . . .

Eric
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: lang@cs.tulane.edu (Raymond Lang)
Subject: Re: kneeling...
Organization: Computer Science Dept., Tulane Univ., New Orleans, LA
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 18:41:06 GMT
Nntp-Posting-Host-[nntpd-28117]: jupiter


In article <BvCKJE.IJ6@news.udel.edu>, stabosz@chopin.udel.edu (Rae Stabosz) writes:
>
> [...comments on the how the argument over kneeling has
>     become a distraction during Mass....] 
> 
> Oh well.  I guess some good will come of me knowing of the discontent
> about Mass.  But I have to affirm that everything I have read so far
> about that which makes for "better worship" sounds like so much
> wind blowing to me.  What goes on at Mass goes on between the soul
> and God, and between the Church and Christ.  I have respect for the
> formal rubrics but I trust the celebrant to know what they are and to
> follow them.  This may be naive, and I suppose one of the reasons I
> subscribed to this newsgroup was to find out more about the larger
> issues in the Church today.  But coming in cold to it, I've felt an
> atmosphere of heretic-hunting almost.  What gives?

Rae,

I have to agree with you.  I too picked up this mailing list just
lately when it was gated to the Internet.  Since then, I find myself
composing replies in my head while I'm trying to spend time in prayer,
I'm full of new distractions during Mass, and (worst of all) I'm all
too easily swept up into the "inquisitor-wannabe" mindset that seems
to prevail around here.  I've begun to think whether it might be more
pleasing to Christ if I were to spend the hour or so a day I spend
reading and replying to this list on either (1) prayer, (2) spiritual
reading, (3) the duties of my state of life as a student, or (4) almost
anything else.  The point is that the "chaff to wheat" ratio around here
seems to be a little high, the volume is too large to sift through it all,
and what little of value there is here is not worth the time it takes
to find it.

Ergo, this is my last post.

So long folks.

Ray Lang
lang@cs.tulane.edu
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Via: uk.ac.lancashire-poly.prime1; Fri, 2 Oct 1992 18:04:31 +0100
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Fri, 2 Oct 1992 18:07:50 LCL
From:         The Banshee <SUTTON_R_1@PRIME1.LANCASHIRE-POLY.AC.UK>
Subject:      Chastity

(From the banshee   )

Surely the answer to lack of sexual morals is to teach young people (like me)
to see sex as something that is good and beautiful in the right situation...
ie Matrimony.  Rather than emphasising the sinfulness of it in the wrong
situation because this gives us hang-ups and makes us afraid... and according to
to my catechism those are as much lack of chastity as sex outside marriage.

God bless,
Rebecca
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: dmczap@wookie.cambridge.ibm.com ()
Subject: Re:      Re: Half full/Half empty
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 92 20:46:53 GMT
Organization: IBM T. J. Watson Research

In article <1992Sep28.190444.11602@erenj.com>, bdboyle@erenj.com (Bryan D. Boyle) writes:
|> [... stuff deleted...]
|>          All I hear is a criticism of "why don't the catholics...(add your
|> favorite complaint) to make the church more acceptable to US?".  
|>  
|> -Bryan 
|> 

Well, maybe some context will be helpful here. I am RC. I have been involved
in numerous RC and non-RC bible-study/youth groups since high school.
Lest you resent me for also learning from other faiths, I have been quite 
involved in the RCC: Life in the Spirit, Cursillo, teaching CCD, playing
guitar for mass and the host of other church special sessions, etc.

I am very thankful to have been brought closer to God ecumenically. I married
a very Christian man who happens to be Methodist. We discussed our different
religious traditions extensively with both priests (several) and a minister 
before we even got engaged. We went thru Engaged Encounter, and had both a 
minister and a priest perform (witness, really. Our priest said marriage is
a sacrament you give each other, it is merely witnessed by a priest) our
marriage.

I am learning the extensive similaries in beliefs between the RC & Meth.
churches because of our situation. One big difficulty: According to the Meth.
practices, any Christian in good faith is welcome to share in their 
communion. But not so with the RC church. And in fact the RC church prohibits
me from sharing with my husband in communion at his church. We attend either
both RC & Meth. services on a Sunday, or we alternate, together. It is 
increasingly painful at mass to step past Ken as I go to communion. I 
know he has a strong faith, and his spiritual state would not prohibit
him from taking communion. It is the RCC that does this. One Christmas,
we were at a beautiful midnight mass, and at communion, my husband was not
welcome to partake. Why? Because Jesus wants it so? No, I believe this is
not Jesus' desire, but man's. Jesus criticized the Pharisees for laying
up rules that separate people from God. I believe Jesus came to unite,
and here were are so divided.

I am encouraged to hear many others also writing in their frustration with this
issue. I agreed with one poster who said we do need to challenge the RCC,
not just pray silently. 

So Bryan, this is not an US v. THEM post. It's an US challenging US.

Donna

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