From: han@anadolu.michigan.com (hasan.b.mutlu)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.turkish,talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,soc.history
Subject: Re: 'Milaninis' Think 'Arms Reductions' Is Cutting On Steroids.
Date: 11 Aug 92 21:54:26 GMT





<1992Aug11.020421.18265@microsoft.com>
marcmil@microsoft.com (Marc Milanini)

>>Brilliant logic.

>Thanks a bunch.

Jump for it?

>>Is that how the mind of a 'milan-ini' works?

>Yes.

It boggles the 'non-milan-ini' mind.

>>I have a feeling that you are largely ignorant of 'culture' and 'politics.'
>>Politics is the catch-all word for the social and economic factors that
>>combine to generate the environment we exist in. Of course, in the
>>'milanini-land,' especially, politics is defined as what politicians
>>do.

>This is utter assertion without a hint of factual data to support it.

All this reminds me of a song I know.

>It is obvious that the compared levels of Japanese, Turkish and American
>students have nothing to do in soc.culture.greek, soc.history or 
>talk.politics.soviet.

It is obvious that you are making this all up. You fling the subject in 
all directions.

>>The everyday forces that shape our lives (politics) and our reactions
>>to these forces (culture) are merely manifestations of the same thing. 

>You can write whatever you want, it does not change what I wrote above.

You're boring as hell in your own way.

>>Again, you have been arguing with yourself; I never said a word about
>>the rate of illiteracy in Europe. The 'real reasons' of this general
>>failure are anybody's guess and varies from one 'expert' to another.

>The discussion was about the compared levels of literacy in Greece,
>the USA and Turkey. 

Nope. The discussion was about the following subject:

 "You need to understand that 'illiteracy' is in the eye of the
  beholder."

>And you replied with an argument about the so-called
>superiority of the Turkish teaching. You implied that, because the
>Turkish schools are more strict, the Turkish students are better.

Where in the world did you dig up the above rhetoric? Let me sanctify
your memory. In Turkiye, nonformal education is the primary factor 
in such projects as the Southeast Anatolia Project. Besides, eleven 
years of Turkish education are equivalent to 22.3 years of American 
education. Those who had their schooling in Turkiye are well familiar 
with this discrepancy. Compared to the take-it-easy atmosphere of an 
average high school in the U.S. where the emphasis is more on 'social 
control' [e.g., preventing teenage pregnancies or drug use] than on 
education per se, their Turkish counterparts look like bootcamps where 
approximately twelve or thirteen heavy-duty subjects varying from 
'World History' to 'Algebra' [and in some pilot schools, even 'Calculus'] 
are hammered in eight hours a day, for nine months a year. For
those who survive the Turkish high school education, American 
(or European for that matter) system is a song and a breeze.

To give you a better idea about the caliber of Turkish education
system, you can have a random look at some of the questions asked
at '1991 Turkish High School Entrance Examinations,' and exam taken 
by 15 year olds.

>I did not see any connection (and still do not see any) between the
>level of students and the rate of literacy, so I asked you to provide
>me with evidence that, all other things being equal, a more strict
>teaching is better than a relaxed one.

You do seem to have your terminologies confused. I am not arguing
with their validity, either. Are you half-drunk?

>>And I did.

>No, this survey proves that the Japanese teaching, which happens to
>be more strict than the American one, is better at making students
>use wisely their time. As I said, you have to examin all parameters,
>not only the strictness, that could cause such a difference.

This is a figment of your imagination. Again, Japanese do not come
across as the all-work-no-play creatures that you make them to be.
For example, it turns out that there are no significant differences
between the Japanese and American kids in terms of TV-watching.

Sank in?

>>By the way, similar differences also exist in Turkiye's favor between
>>Turkish and American schools at the junior and high school levels,
>>although this might be complete news to some Americans and 'milaninis.' 

>Oh yeah ? And you have evidence of that ? Unless Japan is now part
>of Turkey, this remains to be seen.

You can assert whatever you want; your anti-Turkish feelings won't 
alter the reality.

>>This is utter assertion, without even a hint of factual data to confirm
>>it. Read the survey results.

>I am sorry, but those two surveys are not uncompatible. One concludes
>that the Japanese students are better at using their time, the other
>that there is more cooperation in Japanese universities than in 
>American universities. 

Nope. Where the numbers differ drastically is in the way school 
children allocated their time. 

>>As usual, you have been arguing with yourself. For those who survive 
>>the Turkish high school education, American system is a song and a
>>breeze. 

>Non-sequitur.

Ono. 

>>>>[Turkey's progress deleted]
>>
>>May I ask why?

>I know that the notion of saving bandwidth is completely meaningless
>for you, and that you don't read the alert message that tells you
>to trim down any quotation when you follow-up, so I will leave that
>on the side.

I see. So that you can entertain 'non-milaninis' on 'sct.'

>You know, on the contrary to what you and Goebbels think, people need
>to read only once to understand. After a while, reading several
>times the same quote, as true as it may be, becomes boring and can
>only harm the purpose of the initial message.

Don't overestimate your spiritual insight.

>>Oman. Did you ever read newspaper at all? Would the 'European math 
>>competition' and 'Turkish kids' ring a bell? Also, Turkish students, 
>>for example, who transfer to an American high school and spend a year 
>>here with AFS program never fail to pass their classes with flying
>>colors for one simple reason. Well, never mind; like conversing with 
>>a brick wall.

>The Turkish students that come to the USA are the best, the cream of
>the cream, the elite, got it ? 

As usual, we see 'milanini's groundless, non-supported statement
caused by his ignorance. Any evidence for the AFS program?

>The efficiency of teaching has to be kept on a large amount of time
>to ensure lasting results. What we are looking at now can be broken 
>tomorrow. What I mean is that a very good educational system (like
>the one that Turkey has now. I really believe that it is good, I
>simply object to its being better than European or American ones)

It is, however, just that: fiction.

>has effects on the general population only years after it is put
>together. Also, illiterate people tend to have known how to read,
>but have simply forgotten over the years. You have to be sure that
>people are still using their skills after their school-time is
>finished.

Well, so.

>>No wonder you spout myths as evidence.

>When, where, how ? 

Here.

##The discussion was about the compared levels of literacy in Greece,
##the USA and Turkey. 

#Nope. The discussion was about the following subject:

# "You need to understand that 'illiteracy' is in the eye of the
#  beholder."

>You apparently think that you can make bigoted
>remarks in public and not be expected to account for them.

Utter bathos. Seldom have I felt so bad and so good at the same time. 


Hasan B-) Mutlu

                     'Kill Turks and Kurds wherever you find them 
                      and in whatever circumstances you find them. 
                      Turkish children also should be killed as 
                      they form a danger to the Armenian nation.' 
                                     (Hamparsum Boyadjian - 1914)