From: bunker@physun.physics.mcmaster.ca (Alex Bunker)
Newsgroups: misc.headlines,alt.activism,talk.politics.misc
Subject: Re: Intellectuals and totalitarianism
Date: 20 Aug 92 03:36:12 GMT
Organization: Dept. of Physics & Astronomy, McMaster University

In article <1992Aug19.205950.5172@ncar.ucar.edu> gary@colossus.cgd.ucar.edu (Gary Strand) writes:
>ab> Alex Bunker
>gs> Gary Strand
>
>ab> [I]n general blue collar workers and lefty intellectuals belong to the 
>ab> same political party and have the same voting habits. I am talking about 
>ab> a global average here.
>
>  You mean a Western European average. Strange how the voting habits and po-
>  litical outlook of 250 million Americans counts much less than the same of
>  ~300 million Europeans. Methinks you're stuck on the old pre-WWI European
>  view of itself, ie, a shining beacon unto the world of groping-in-the-dark
>  masses. Sorry, but that just isn't true any more.

I am thinking of not just europe but the entire democratic world including
Canada, Japan, Australia, Newzealand etc...

>gs> In any case, your average lefty intellectual is so far removed from basic
>gs> theories on government power, economics, and monetary policies, that it's
>gs> no wonder that wherever and whenever their ideas have been tried, (at best)
>gs> the society as a whole has remained stuck, or has declined. I am including
>gs> Sweden, Norway, Germany, France, and so on here too.
>
>ab> HA HA HA HA HA AH A !!!!!!
>
>ab> This is very funny. You just mentioned a set of countries EVERY one of
>ab> which has a healthier economy than the US as well as being more socially
>ab> advanced.
>
>  Prove it. Show that these economies during the period from (say) 1950-today
>  have been historically more healthy than the US' economy, controlling for
>  non-economic factors, so that we can see whether or not your contention 
>  that Eurosocialism is the wave of the present and the future. Also, your
>  claims to a greater degree of "social advancement" sound remarkably hollow
>  and biased. Where were fascism, Naziism, and Communism invented? Not in 
>  the US, I can assure you. Also, which countries started WWI and WWII?

The started WAY behind but in the past 30 years have rocketed past the
US. Sure Fascism and Communism were bad ideas but so were 
racism and Macarthyism. And dont tell me fascism never had any following
in the USA. There are more NEO-NAZIs in the USA than Germany.
It is my beilef that social democracy is the path of the future.
Only time will prove me right or wrong. Personally I would
much rather live in a social democratic country because it has
all the things which I personally find to be what I call
"advanced" It is mostly a matter of opinions and priorities.

>ab> how are these societies stuck or declining. AND THE USA IS NOT!?!?!?!?!
>
>  The US is declining, as are all other countries, in direct proportion to 
>  the amount of State control over the economy.

No Germany and france have far MORE government involvment in thier economies
and are doing far BETTER because of it. They have LESS POVERTY CRIME AND
no "poverty trap" Government NONINTERVENTION does not cause this
wise and well thought out government INTERVENTION does this

>ab> These countries are kicking the US economic butt by government involvment
>ab> in economic policy.
>
>  I guess this explains why the socialists are getting kicked out, and those
>  that remain are dropping their socialist ideals very quickly.

what ARE you talking about here? Please I hope you are not stupid
enough to confuse the eastern european communists with western european
social democrats.

>ab> US stype capitalism without a government industrial policy is the stuck
>ab> declining failure. Luckily (for Americans) YOU are in the minority and
>ab> the majority of americans realize this and are about to elect Bill Clin-
>ab> ton as the next president who will invoke an industrial policy.
>
>  If you think Bill Clinton can save the American economy, I've got a bridge
>  and a set of crown jewels for sale. Indeed, there is an undercurrent of
>  pseudo-guerilla thinking in that Clinton ought to be elected, so that the
>  US will be driven into the ground faster, and then we can start doing it
>  all right that much sooner.
>
>ab> Well maybe thay wont and America will continue to be a proud but pathetic
>ab> economic laughingstock naively convincing itself that it is the best
>ab> country in the world just because the rest of the world lets you have
>ab> your fun playing global bouncer!
>
>  Ummm, I wonder what your parents and grandparents have to say about the US.

My mother was A refugee from Hungary in 1956 She HATES what the US did
as much as she did the exUSSR they did not care one shit for Hungarian
wellbeing or lives. When the war was hopeless and Soviet troops were pouring 
across the border. Radio Free America broadcast "Keep up the good fight
we are coming to help you" when they had no intention of helping and
100 of young Hungarians lost their life in a hopeless fight as a result
in order keep the attention of the USSR away from other matters that the
US had geopolitical intersts in. 

>  I take your views as seriously as I take those of college-age Americans,
>  which is to say that they "benefit" from having all of 5 years worth of
>  memories, and an accompanying inability to understand history or the rea-
>  sons why things are the way they are. You are the same way. It's really
>  quite easy to become oh-so-stereotypically-European-snobbish towards the
>  US, because you don't remember or understand the role the US has played
>  since WWI in keeping Europe at least semi-stable and prosperous. 

should the people of the world pay permanent homage to the american
people for a historic act? Sure one must learn from history but you are
STUCK in it.

>ab> Your average Joe Bluecollar steelworker is a very sensible fellow and
>ab> knows who's side he is on.
>
>gs> It isn't on the side of the socialist intellectuals, I can tell you that.
>
>ab> Last time I checked he is (In most countries)
>
>  Again, your narrow view prevents you from understanding that when you say
>  "most countries", you mean "most Western European countries".
>
Japan, NZ, Australia, Brazil , Chile, Venezuela, Namibia are of course 
ALL european countries. OH my Europe is BIG!
>
>--
>Gary Strand                      Opinions stated herein are mine alone and are
>strandwg@ncar.ucar.edu            not representative of NCAR, UCAR, or the NSF

ALEX BUNKER
(the social-democratic secular humanist)
Newsgroups: misc.headlines,alt.activism,talk.politics.misc