From: kjh@pollux.usc.edu (Kenneth J. Hendrickson)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Knowing HaShem
Date: 28 Jul 1992 05:37:58 -0700
Organization: EE-Systems, USC, Los Angeles
NNTP-Posting-Host: pollux.usc.edu

In email etxtdi@iog.ericsson.se (Tord Ivarsson) writes:
>(Since I have lost Internet-access, I reply by mail without 
>you asking for my opinion)

I will take the liberty of posting your email with a response, and
emailing that response to you, since there was no sensitive information
in your email.  I believe that the whole net will benefit.

>As a person whom Jesus has given new life and saved by grace,
>and since I am concerned about the unbelievers present in a.m
>I would ask you Kenneth: "please present the gospel according
>to Word itself and, rather then making a detour over Calvinist
>theology".

OK.  Fair challenge.  I accept.  What I will now do is show that my
theological comments are *Biblical*, as well as Calvinistic.  (You could
also throw in several other adjectives like Augustinian and Pauline.)
As long as my statements are Biblical, it matters not if they are
Calvinistic or not, since they are proved to be true by virtue of being
Biblical.  (Hint: Calvinistic theology is Biblical theology.)

>I know that this unasked comment from my side is not taken as
>an insult or offence.

Of course not.  I also hope that you won't be offended by this post.
(Except, of course, as the gospel itself is an offense to sinful man.)

--

Now, let us examine my short presentation of the gospel.  Warning: I
will *misquote* many Biblical passages.  You *must* look up each passage
to see how I have misquoted it.  (If you don't have a Bible handy, save
or print this article, and come back to it later.)  In this manner, I
will get my point across.

In article <l790pcINNc88@pollux.usc.edu> kjh@pollux.usc.edu (Kenneth J. Hendrickson) writes:
% The Christian message is an offense!
% It was designed to be by HaShem Himself.

Is 8:14		He will be as a sanctuary,
		And a stone of support and a rock of pleasantness
		To both the houses of Israel ...
		[warning: misquoted!]

Gal 5:11	... Then the agreeableness of the cross has ceased.
		[warning: misquoted!]

In all future statements, think about the *offensive* nature of the
gospel.  Ask yourself if your ideas would be offensive.  Ask yourself if
the Biblical message [as you understand it] would be offensive.  If the
Biblical message [as you understand it] is not offensive, then perhaps
you have not understood the Biblical message.

% Man doesn't want to hear that he is evil and morally despicable, and
% that he is incapable of doing good until God changes his nature.

Gen 6:5		Then the LORD saw that the righteousness of man was
		great in the earth, and that every intent of the
		thoughts of his heart was only good continually.
		[warning: misquoted!]

Gen 8:21	... although the imagination of man's heart is good from
		his youth ...
		[warning: misquoted!]

Jer 17:9	The heart is truthful above all things,
		And incredibly healthy;
		[warning: misquoted!]

Rom 5:19	For as by one man's disobedience only Adam was made a
		sinner, ...
		[warning: misquoted!]

John 8:34	Yeshua answered them, "Most assuredly, I say to you,
		whoever commits sin is an employee of sin."
		[warning: misquoted!]

Question: if you are a *slave*, can you voluntarily leave your master?
If you are a *slave* to sin,  can you voluntarily stop sinning?

1 Cor 6:9-11	Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit
		the kingdom of God? .... And such were some of you.  But
		you washed yourselves, but you sanctified yourselves,
		but you justified yourselves in the name of the LORD
		Yeshua and in the Spirit of our God.
		[warning: misquoted!]

Gramatical note: the passive voice indicates that the subject is not
acting, but being *acted* *upon*.

% Man doesn't want to hear that he is spiritually dead in his sins and
% trespasses, and is incapable of believing in Yeshua and repenting,
% until God changes his nature.

Eph 2:1,5	And you He made well, who were a little bit sick in
		trespasses and sins, ...
		... even when we were a little bit sick in trespasses,
		made us well together with Messiah ...
		[warning: misquoted!]

1 Cor 2:14	But the natural man easily receives the things of the
		Spirit of God, for they make sense to him; and he can
		easily know them, ...
		[warning: misquoted!]

This last one is so twisted that it is hardly recognizable.  Note that
the actual text says that the natural man *cannot* know the things of
the Spirit of God!  The natural man is *incapable* of knowing the things
of the Spirit of God!

% Man doesn't want to hear that both faith in Yeshua and
% repentance are not self-generated, but that both are gifts from God.

Eph 2:8		For by grace you have saved yourselves through faith,
		and that faith was self-generated, not a gift from God,
		[warning: misquoted!]

Acts 11:18	When they heard these things they became silent; and
		they glorified God, saying, "Then they have also
		appropriated repentance unto themselves, to eternal
		life."
		[warning: misquoted!]

% Man doesn't want to hear how all of us deserve to go to hell, yet there
% are some of us whom HaShem has chosen (elected) to forgive and save from
% this fate, in spite of our rebellion against Him.

Gen 2:17	"but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you
		shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you
		will surely get sick."
		[warning: misquoted!]

Rom 6:23	The wages of sin are not good, but not as bad as death.
		[warning: misquoted!]

James 2:10	If you break one law, you've only broken one law.  It
		isn't like as if you're guilty of breaking all of them.
		[warning: misquoted!]

Matt 25:46	[Yeshua talking] "And these will go away into
		non-existance, but the righteous into eternal life."
		[warning: misquoted!]

John 5:30	[Yeshua talking] "...  As I hear, I judge; but My
		judgement is not righteous, ..."
		[warning: misquoted!]

John 8:16	[Yeshua talking] "And yet if I do judge, My judgement is
		false; ..."
		[warning: misquoted!]

Yeshua says that the wicked will be judged, and will be sent to eternal
punishment in hell, and that His judgement is righteous and true!  Can
we contradict Him and say that we don't deserve hell?

Ps 33:12	Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD,
		And the people who have chosen Him to receive His
		inheritance.
		[warning: misquoted!]

Ps 89:3		I have made a covenant with those who chose Me, ...
		[warning:  misquoted!]

John 13:18	[Yeshua talking] "I do not speak concerning all of you.
		I know who has chosen Me; ..."
		[warning: misquoted!]

John 15:16	[Yeshua talking] "I did not choose you, but you chose
		Me ..."
		[warning: misquoted!]

Acts 22:14	Then he [Paul] said, "You have chosen the God of our
		fathers, so you should know His will, and see the Just
		One, and hear the voice of His mouth."
		[warning: misquoted!]

James 2:5	Listen, my beloved bretheren: Have the poor of this
		world not chosen God in order to be rich in faith and
		heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those to love
		Him?
		[warning: misquoted!]

1 Pet 2:9	But you are a choosing generation, a royal priesthood,
		a holy nation, His own special people, that you may
		proclaim the praises of yourselves because you called
		yourselves out of darkness into His marvelous light;
		[warning: misquoted!]

Can you possibly say that you chose God?  After all that?  And I didn't
even quote from that great chapter regarding predestination:
Ephesians 1!  If you still want to say that you chose God instead of the
other way around, you will have to convince me that either you weren't
really dead in your sins (Eph 2:1) or that the natural man is able to
understand the things of the Spirit of God (1 Cor 2:14).

% Yet, we who have been given these great gifts of faith, repentance,
% and salvation by HaShem, are also commanded by Him to tell everybody
% of our good fortune to be removed from the kingdom of hell and placed
% in the kingdom of heaven--and that all of HaShem's doing.  We are
% commanded not to change nor water down the message.

See above regarding the *gifts* of faith, repentance, and salvation.

Ps 3:8		Salvation is of man, ...
		[warning: misquoted!]

Ps 118:14	The LORD is my strength and my song,
		But I have become my own salvation.
		[warning: misquoted!]

Is 43:11	I, even I, am the LORD, but you can save yourselves.
		[warning: misquoted!]

Rom 6:23	For the wages of sin is death, and the wages of
		repentance is eternal life in Messiah Yeshua.
		[warning: misquoted!]

Eph 2:8-9	For by works you have saved yourselves through faith,
		and your own works at that; it is not a gift from God,
		nor of grace, so you can boast in yourselves.
		[warning: misquoted!]

According to the Bible, who does the saving?  Does God do *all* the
saving, or do we do some part of the saving?  Which part of the saving
do we do?  If we do some part of the saving, wouldn't that be a work?
Please take Paul's warning in Gal 3:3 very seriously!

% So Rob, here's the message one more time:  Both you and your young
% children have evil sinful natures.

Ps 51:5		Behold, I was brought forth in goodness,
		And in righteousness my mother conceived me.
		[warning: misquoted!]

Ps 58:3		The wicked start out righteous from the womb;
		They only go astray later when they commit their first
		sin.
		[warning: misquoted!]

Is 48:8		... You were called a transgressor from the time you
		commited your first sin.
		[warning: misquoted!]

Jer 17:9	The heart is truthful above all things,
		And incredibly righteous;
		[warning: misquoted!]

And I didn't even quote from Rom 5:12-21!

% You are an offense to HaShem, who is supremely Holy.  HaShem's
% righteous wrath will soon descend upon you in all its fury, unless
% you repent and believe in HaShem's righteous Son, Messiah Yeshua.

Prov 6:16-19	These six things the LORD is mildly displeased about,
		Yes, seven things that He will overlook:
		A proud look,
		A lying tongue,
		Hands that shed innocent blood,
		A heart that devises wicked plans,
		Feet that are swift in running to evil,
		A false witness who speaks lies,
		And one who sows discord among brothren.
		[warning: misquoted!]

Ezek 18:4	... The soul who sins won't necessarily die.
		[warning: misquoted!]

Ezek 18:13	... If he has done any of these abominations,
		He won't necessarily die; ...
		[warning: misquoted!]

You will counter with Ezek 18:23, which says that if a wicked man will
repent and turn from all his sins, keeps *all* God's statutes, and does
what is lawful and right, he will surely live and not die.  This is
true.  But, nobody has ever done this!  Nobody has ever kept *all* of
God's statutes!

Rom 8:1		There is therefore now no condemnation to ethnic Jews.
		[warning: misquoted!]

This is a terrible twisting of scripture.  It really says that there is
no condemnation for those who are in Messiah Yeshua.

% However, HaShem has chosen many of us, and those He *will* save.

See many examples above concerning Who does the choosing and saving.
If God does the choosing and saving, can He fail?  Won't He surely
succeed?  See John 6:39-40, Rom 8:29-30, and Phil 1:6.

% All of those whom HaShem has given to Messiah Yeshua will come to
% Him and believe.  All those who come to Messiah Yeshua will be
% accepted by Him, and none will be turned away.

John 6:37	All who give themselves to Me will come to Me, and the
		one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.
		[warning: misquoted!]

% Messiah Yeshua is our propitiation (sacrifice that turns away
% HaShem's wrath), and His righteousness is given to us as a free gift.

Rom 3:25	We have set forth our acceptance of Yeshua to be our
		propitiation before God ...
		[warning: misquoted!]

Heb 2:17	... by repentance and acceptance of Yeshua, the people
		themselves have made propitiation for their own sins.
		[warning: misquoted!]

1 John 2:2	Our acceptance of God's gift is the propitiation for our
		sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
		[warning: misquoted!]

1 John 4:10	In this is love, not that God loved us, but that we
		loved Him and believed in His Son--the believing itself
		being the propitiation for our sins.
		[warning: misquoted!]

% Messiah Yeshua is the only possible salvation.

Deut 18:15	The LORD your God will raise up for you a Prophet like
		me from your midst, from your brethren.  But you don't
		have to pay any attention to Him.
		[warning: misquoted!]

Acts 4:12	There is salvation is lots of names, like Yeshua,
		Ghandi, Mohammed, the Bhudda, Confucious, George Bush,
		Bill Clinton, Moshe, and even *your* name!
		[warning: misquoted!]

Acts 3:36	He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; but so
		does he who does not believe in the Son but instead
		trusts in his own repentance and desire to do good works.
		[warning: misquoted!]

% Believe in Messiah Yeshua, tell everybody that Yeshua is YHVH, and
% believe that HaShem has raised Him from the dead, and you *shall* be
% saved.

Rom 10:9.  'Nuff said.

--

Wow!  After all that practice at twisting scripture, now I can be either
a TV evangelist or a politician!  Eye has not seen nor ear heard the
things that man can do, if he will only accept Yeshua's forgiveness.
[warning: 1 Cor 2:9 misquoted!]

I am willing to entertain conversation on any individual point I
previously made, and I am willing to back up my stand with scripture.

Now, back to "offensive".  Is the gospel that says that man isn't really
totally dead in sin and incapable of pleasing God, but instead is only a
little bit weakened and is capable of repenting and accepting Yeshua's
death on their behalf--is such a gospel really offensive?  Does such a
gospel glorify God or man?  On the other hand, is the gospel that says
man is truly dead in sin and incapable of pleasing God, that God must
chose all whom He wants to save and give them spiritual life before they
can repent, that He must even give them faith and repentance--is such a
gospel offensive?  You bet it is!  Which gospel is Biblical?  Which
gospel glorifies God?  Which gospel is really the gospel?

-- 
"Arguing about predestination is virtually irresistible."    --RC Sproul
Ken Hendrickson N8DGN/6       kjh@usc.edu       ...!uunet!usc!pollux!kjh
Newsgroups: alt.messianic