From: farenebt@craft.camp.clarkson.edu (Bri Farenell)
Subject: Re: Have you heard of the Religious Left?
Organization: Clarkson University
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1992 03:00:07 GMT

hays@ssd.intel.com (Kirk Hays) writes:
>Wrong again.  Many pro-gunners, including the NRA, want to find something better,
>but the anti-gun side has poisoned the well so many times, there's no trust
>possible.

>|> I agree. I don't think an outright ban on guns is the way to go
>|> but I'd like to here people on both sides of the issue try and 
>|> compromise (especially, but not only, the NRA people). 

>Ever heard of the Stagger's Bill, an alternative to the Brady Bill, that not only
>was offered as a compromise, but is actually *better* than the Brady Bill at
>weeding out criminals and mental misfits from gun ownership?  It *mandated* a
>real background check, unlike Brady.  It was *point of sale*, unlike Brady.

>The NRA pushed *hard* to get it passed, but the controllers would cut off their
>noses to spite the NRA, and got it killed.

>|> You'd be
>|> hard pressed to convince me that the status quo is okay and acceptable.
>|> The status quo is unacceptable. 

>Likewise.  Let's start by enforcing the 20,000 gun laws already on the books.

>Why should we believe that "just one more" gun law will be effective, when we
>have 20,000 examples that show that they are not?

>The controllers need to change their tune, all right.

>|> However, the gun control people have
>|> to accept that there will (should) never be an outright ban on guns
>|> while the NRA people have to accept that the status quo is not ok.
>|> They must try and find some middle ground. Neither side believes in
>|> SOME restrictions. For them, it's either all (gun control) or nothing
>|> (NRA). 

Andy Freeman: are you taking notes on how to debate? Kirk Hays has
presented a clear, logical and rationally stated argument on why
he disagrees with my argument. 

>The NRA supports effective gun control.  You deliberately distort their position.

I distorted both positions, repeat, BOTH positions to make my point.
It's called hyperbole. Maybe, probably, it was the wrong approach.
I apologize, though; I'm not perfect.
				
>Compromise: the fine art of giving away that which your opponent is not strong
>enough to wrest from you.

Compromise: where neither side loses face but gets a little of what they want.
Lack of compromise: why our government is so inefficient on social issue.
Too much compromise: why our govt is so inefficient with the budget.

>|> "We are not descended from fearful men...not men who feared to write, to
>|> speak, to associate and to defend causes which were for the moment 
>|> unpopular."		---Edward R Murrow

>Oh, like gun rights?

I never said you were an evil, unpatriotic person for supporting gun
rights. You believe strongly in gun rights and try to factually correct
(where necesary) someone who has made a mistake. I respect that.

What I was saying: gun control people and NRA people dislike each other
so much that it discourages me from expecting progress. Maybe the NRA
IS really trying to compromise but their efforts are being ignored
by someone. I dunno. I hope that both sides with stop their hate
contest (of each other). That is EXACTLY how I view the NRA-HCI
relationship, a hate contest. ONe side feels it's given up too much
while the other side feels it's not gotten nearly enough. It's not
as much a hate contest as the abortion debate but there's certainly
as much at stake.

BTW- I think the Staggers Bill would have been a good idea. The only bug
that would be needed to work out to set up a central database and 
automate all gun stores. I also think that gun training in safety
should be mandatory (in places where it isn't). Not an option,
mandatory. Other than that, I liked Staggers. I would prefer an instant
check but some check is definitely necesary. I doubt a waiting period
would do much good. However, the gun sellers should have the right
to deny a sale of a gun to someone who appears enraged even if he is
otherwise qualified to buy a gun; this is similiar to a bartender not
selling another beer to an obviously drunk person. 

>1-800-RUN-GUNS, tell them what you think of gun grabbers and 
>government employees
>that encourage people to narc on their neighbors.  Good for the soul.

narc on their neighbors concerning ____?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
BRI FARENELL			      	   "America needs leaders, not labels."
CLARKSON '95				    	---Ronald Reagan, 8/8/92
FARENEBT@CRAFT.CAMP.CLARKSON.EDU  	    
A PC-HATING, PRO-LIFE, LIBERAL CARD-CARRYING ACLU MEMBER
=============================================================================
"We are not descended from fearful men...not men who feared to write, to
speak, to associate and to defend causes which were for the moment 
unpopular."		---Edward R Murrow
Newsgroups: alt.politics.bush,alt.politics.clinton,talk.politics.misc