HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: tbarnes@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (thomas wrentmore barnes)
Subject: Re: 8th century persona
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1992 18:04:59 GMT

In article <85536@ut-emx.uucp> robear@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Jay Michael) writes:
>period, I found Charlemange's "Germany" interesting . . . which poses a bit
>of a conflict.  So instead of scrapping either one idea or the other, I was
>wondering how period such a merger would be, how might it come about.  I've
>tossed about with the notion that I was a traveller of sorts that found
>middle Europe to his liking and stayed there, picking up some local custom
>and other accoutrements, but maintaining his original name.  I am unsure
>of the plausability of this . . . if anyone had any insights I would be
>most interested!
>
>

Why be a traveller when you could be a courtier or hanger on at either
Charlemagne's court or the court of one of his Counts. Charlemagne's
court and the courts of his followers were magnets for artistic,
educational and military talent from all over Northern Europe.
	Start by reading a book on Charlegmagne. You'll see many
different roles for a foriegner, and not just as a trader. Being a
priest or monk is the most likely reason for being in Germany. England
and Ireland were major centers of monasticism and learning. The constant
"pull" for teachers to educate men for the priesthood within
Charlegmagne's empire and the "push" of Viking raids and civil war in
Anglo-Saxon England led many churchmen to flee to Charlegmagne's lands.
wThere the strong central government and the lack of navigable waterways
(up to a point) made life safer and easier.  Many Irish monks ended up
at the monastery of St. Gall in Switzerland. Alcuin of York was the head
of Charlegmagne's school system and educational efforts.
	The second possibility is that of a son of a Anglo-Saxon noble
who sent his son off to expose him to Charlegmagne's court/foster him to
one of Charle's nobles/get rid of him/keep him safe.
	A third possibility (less likely) is the role of transplanted
man-at-arms/civil servant, either to Charles's court, or to the court of
one of his counts. 

Good Luck,

Lothar \|/
        0
    
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: brandon@euler.math.brown.edu (Joshua Brandon)
Subject: Re: Forge story
Organization: Brown University Mathematics Department
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 18:51:07 GMT

Thomas did write:

This weekend I spent Saturday at my forge.  In addition to teaching
a young lad a bit about forging, I made a half dozen carving tools.
[etc.]

Wow!  Keep gracing us with these descriptions, good sir, they are a delight
unto the eyes!

		---Simon
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Subject: Re: On the nature of armor....
Reply-To: whheydt@PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 16:40:15 GMT

In article <1992Dec16.031057.18251@organpipe.uug.arizona.edu> tip@lead.aichem.arizona.edu (Tom Perigrin) writes:
>My Lords O'Connor and Heydt are not even really addressing the same issues.

Quite possibly, but I was attempting to lead in that direction by the
nature of my questions.

>While it is presumptious for me to speak for My Lord Heydt, it seems that
>he and I hold to the tenant that the SCA has something to do with historical
>recreation, and that a certain amount of historical accuracy is laudable,
>even if it gets in the way of doing things "the easy way".  In fact, I know
>that for myself, surmounting such obstacles in the journey is as much fun as
>finally arriving at my goal.

If such honorifics are taken from by actual family history 'My Lord
duMont' would be much more accurate.....  :-)

I agree.  I am in favor of striving towards more authenticity.  My
Lord Peregrine, from your words it is clear that you do so far more
effectively than I, but the effort is likely of more importance in
many respects that the achievement (but then--I think you're trying
harder, too).  

	--Hal

        Hal Ravn, Province of the Mists, West Kingdom
        Wilson H. Heydt, Jr.,  Albany, CA 94706,  510/524-8321 (home)
-- 
Hal Heydt                    |    
Analyst, Pacific*Bell        |            You!
510-823-5447                 |    Out of the Gene Pool!
whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM    |
Organization: The American University - University Computing Center
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 17:29:55 EST
From: John A. Jordan Ii. <JJ9262A@auvm.american.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Survey: Households

  Since Vashti and Stephen seem to be the only people on the FidoNet
Medieval Echo, I'll try this here.

  In fourty words (or less): Why did you form or join a household?

Since I doubt that most Rialtans could care less about this, please E-Mail
your response to me.  My Internet address is jj9262a@auvm.american.edu
My FidoNet node is 1:109/120.  Thank you for any and all responses.  This is
research for an article.

                   Tony Jordan (MKA: Jester of Anglesea)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: jen@edsi.plexus.COM (Jennifer Thompson)
Subject: Sources for Rattan
Organization: Enterprise Data Systems Incorporated, Appleton WI
Distribution: USA
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 15:02:57 GMT
Summary: Sources for Rattan


Greetings! A friend of mine who is a knight's marshal is looking 
for rattan suppliers. Apparently, it is quite scarce in the 
Northshield of the Midrealm, and if anyone knows of either 
ordering it by mail or if it is within the Midwest, it would be 
most appreciated. 

                   thanks,
                               jen

jen@edsi.plexus.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Help needed on heralds' titles
From: case1@husc4.harvard.edu (John Case)
Date: 19 Dec 92 17:29:06 EST
Distribution: world
Organization: Harvard University Science Center

I'm looking for some information/history on the formation of the SCA's College 
of Arms, its structure, and especially the formation and evolution of its 
titles, both the descriptives such as Laurel, Brigantia, etc., but also how it
is that we have ended up with our current system of one King at Arms, twelve
Principal Heralds, assorted other Heralds and Heralds Extraordinary, titled
Pursuivants, and Pursuivants at Large (and whatever else might be lurking out 
there in kingdoms not of my acquaintance.  I would dearly appreciate informatio
on this relatively soon, as I am putting together a talk for an upcoming
heraldic symposium.

Any of you Old Used Heralds out there, or sages from the Mists of time (sorry).

Lord Taran of Windy Hill, CDS
Middle-aged, ill-used pursuivant
case1@husc.harvard.edu

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: tip@lead.aichem.arizona.edu (Tom Perigrin)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: real medieval village
Date: 11 Dec 92 19:03:39 GMT
Distribution: usa, na, world
Organization: University of Arizona UNIX Users Group

In article <1992Dec11.150744.21757@pellns.alleg.edu> asheffie@carr108.alleg.edu (Ann Sheffield) writes:
>
>In Butser, England, an Iron-Age, pre-Roman farm was reconstructed as  
>authentically as possible and actually worked, again as authentically as  
>possible, for a year or two.

I visited this site last year. It is excellently done, as they not only
tried recreation, but they learned what did and didn't work.  For example,
they built fire boxes of wood with a clay lining, as evidence in the 
archeological digs.   One night they woke up to the find the long house on
fire, because the clay had cracked, embers had fallen through to the wood,
etc...    When they went back to the dig samples, they found a lot of 
examples of layering of the clay.   previously it had been assumed that
the layers were all made at once.  Now they think that relining the firepit
must have been a common (monthly?) chore.

Another site people have been trying to think of is Ljere, in Northern
Denmark, about 30 Km west of Roskilde.   This is an iron age village,
and it is very strict about recreation.  No medicines, no glasses, no
birth control pills, no NUTTIN!   The waiting list is (as someone said)
very long in spite of this.

I had the pleasure to assist in a smelting of iron from ore at Ljere.
I was allowed to do this, in spite of the fact that I wasn't part of the
normal villiage because of my experience with a Bronze Foundry built on
the princicples of Biringucchio, 1540.  Someplace I still have my little
lump of smelted bog iron.  Great fun.

There is also a villiage in Southern Englend run by ECWS (English Civil
War Society).   I have never visited it, as I was busy with work, etc..,
and had joined the rival group, the Sealed Knot.   The knotters told
me it was very impressive though.

The Oxford Archeological Society set up a Roman Farmstead about 20 years
ago,  and I saw a report on their conclusions in the Ashmolean, but I didn't
make a copy and have no further pointers.  Sorry.

Thomas Ignatius Perigrinus, Award of Legs
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: jdoucette@venus.cc.hollandc.pe.ca (We come in peace. Shoot to kill!!!)
Subject: Head Office address
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Keywords: New shire (we pray)
Organization: Holland College - Charlottetown PEI
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 21:20:00 GMT

	Could someone out there please (he says while on bended knee) give 
me the address for the head-shed type office?  I'm keenly interrested on 
getting a new shire started and also joining (that might help) and figure 
it would save mass consternation if I just went to the HQ straight off.

Thanks in advance,
John Doucette,
Writer of Dargon stuff
From: Diane.Pilkington@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Diane Pilkington)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Crown designs
Date: 11 Dec 92 20:28:14 GMT


 -=> Quoting David Salley to All <=-

 DS> Does Princess Di even _own_ a crown?

 Her Highness the Princess of Wales was gifted with a lovely
 coronet by Her Majesty the Queen; I believe that it was
 a wedding present. It was made in (I'm doing this from 
 memory, so this might not be completely accurate) Victorian
 times, and is a family heirloom. I think she has been 
 gifted with one or two other coronets. I don't know whether
 she is considered the "owner" of these coronets or not; if
 she and the Prince of Wales actually divorce, I suppose
 we'll find out!

 Serena
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10

 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
From: Bob.Upson@f333.n142.z1.fidonet.org (Bob Upson)
Sender: Uucp@blkcat.UUCP
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: You know you're in the SCA when...
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 09:03:00 -0500

GdS> You know you're in the SCA when...
 
GdS> ...you give someone a hug, and when you see the expression on her face,
GdS> belatedly remember that you're wearing a rather well-stuffed
GdS> codpiece.
 
You have to stuff yours? <SEG>
 
You'll be pleased to know we have a foot of snow here.  How's Trimaris treating
you?
 
Macsen
From: odlin@reed.edu (Iain Odlin)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Heraldic references...
Date: 15 Dec 92 02:40:22 GMT
Article-I.D.: reed.1992Dec15.024022.17108
Organization: The Stuffed Animal Trauma Team  (We're Trained Professionals)

In article <1992Dec15.001840.15524@u.washington.edu> lcatlett@carson.u.washington.edu (Lynn Catlett) writes:
>	Does YOUR library "discourage" ILL?
>They (our ILL staff) tell me this is "nearly universal" at
>state universities, but it's the first time I ever heard
>it.  (Especially odd to hear it from a school that calls
>itself "the university of a thousand years.")  

  Good gentle, your library, sad to say, has its collective cranium in an
  anatomically impossible (or at least improbable) position.

  I have had occasion to use ILL at no less than three Universities and one
  public library, and never was I asked what bearing the book had on anything.
  Good thing, too, since it usually was the result of an exuberant whim.
  Neither have I ever been charged for the service (unless I requested photo-
  copies, that is).

  Perhaps I have just been lucky.  Sad it is that we all cannot be.

  Good day.
-- 
 --------------------------------- Iain Odlin ---------------------------------
                  10 Crosby Street, Level 3, Portland ME 04103
                                 odlin@reed.edu
 ------------------ Inexplicably, Bob's porcupine goes flat. ------------------
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: pavao@cae.wisc.edu (Pavao Aaron)
Subject: On tour, seeking shelter
Organization: U of Wisconsin-Madison College of Engineering
Date: 14 Dec 92 10:54:38 CST

Greetings from Jararvellir!

	The University of Wisconsin-Madison Concert Choir, of which I am a
member, will be on tour 5 Mar 93 to 13 Mar 93.  We are using the home 
hospitality form of housing, and we were told that we'd get potluck unless there
was already a house at which we had arainged to stay.  I'd prefer a SCA house
to a potluck, mundane... er... non-SCA one.  I would be willing to sing for my
supper, and could get you free tickets to the concert(s).  Our director, Robert
Fountain, has been hailed as the greatest in America, and we DO have a pretty
good program.  The dates and locations are:

	Fri 5 Mar 93	Delavan, WI
	Sat 6 Mar 93	Chicago Area
	Sun 7 Mar 93	Whitefish Bay, WI
	Mon 8 Mar 93	Lamoni, IO
	Tue 9 Mar 93	Pella, IO
	Wed 10 Mar 93	Edina, MN
	Thu 11 Mar 93	Chippewa Falls, WI
	Fri 12 Mar 93	Ann Arbor, MI

	Of course, it goes without saying that replies should be sent to me via
E-mail.  I thank you for your time.

-> Shandler

SCA: John Chandler (Shandler) Greyfeathre
MKA: Aaron Pavao
NET: pavao@cae.wisc.edu
"I feel so guilty every time I post on the newsgroups."
From: tbarnes@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (thomas wrentmore barnes)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Scope of the SCA (was Re: Through a looking glass, darkly)
Date: 20 Dec 92 17:49:26 GMT
Organization: Indiana University

In article <724798895.F00001@ocitor.fidonet> Tim@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Tim) writes:
>    An Anonymous Node wrote:
> "T> Reply-To: tabron@binah.cc.brandeis.edu
>
> "T> But Arval, it is not "obvious" to me that "western civilation"
> "T> includes those areas. In fact, just look at the terms "the Near and
> "T> Middle East" and wonder how "obvious" it is that this is part of "the
> "T> west".
>
> Considering the initial impulse that generated the Society (Arthurian
> romance fetishism), I suspect that a good case could be made that "western
> civilization" includes England below the Trent, France above the Loire,
> and whatever west of the Rhine, and that's about it.
>

Ahem!

	The Arthurian tradition was alive and well EAST of the Rhine as
well!

	Parsifal - by Wolfram von Eshenbach
	Tristam & Isolde 
	plus a lot of others were written in the 12th and 13th century
by German Minnesangers. I don't know about Germany east of the Elbe or
Oder rivers, much less Poland and beyond.  

Lothar (whose Turm sits on the East bank of the Rhine between Boppard
and St. Goar, and who has heard of King Arthur, thank you very much! :)
\|/
 0
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: tbarnes@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (thomas wrentmore barnes)
Subject: Re: HELP! name searching.
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 20:11:39 GMT

In article <1gqui5INNhle@agate.berkeley.edu> dgreen@thor (David Greenebaum) writes:
>Hello from Bjalfi!
>
>True, true.  It's basically the same idea though.  "Gee, that's a
>nice name, and if I combine it with this byname over here, I get a
>consistent and easily-documented persona name."  Heralds LOVE this,
>because it means we don't have to run around in circles trying to
>justify something somebody made up.  If anyone reading this list is
>trying to come up with a persona name, PLEASE dig up a copy of the
>Decameron, the Canterbury Tales, Egil's Saga, the Tales of the Thousand
>Nights and a Night, the Song of Roland, or whatever medieval literature
>appeals to you, and read it through paying attention to names you like.
>You can come up with truly lovely stuff that way, which is always a
>Good Thing.

Yeah, but gang warily....

Not all of the names of characters in period stories were borne by real
people.  "Kvedulfr"  from Egil's Saga means "Night Wolf" or werewolf.
This is NOT a name that a real Norseman would be proud to bear. It had
overtones of berserk madness, evil and magic, three things that made
Norsemen edgy. 
	All of the names of the characters from the Decameron are
aliases made up to protect the reputations of allegedly real women.
There is a school of thought in literary criticism/medieval history,
that the stories and actions of the characters in the Decameron
represent shameful and irresponsible behavior. It was only when the
characters returned to the city that they became "respectable" again.
Think about it...7 unmarried women between 16 and 25(?) going off
unsupervised into the country with 3 men, to tell dirty stories to one
another? To the medieval mind (and all Rennaissance pretensions aside,
the Decameron WAS written in the 14th Century, making it a very medieval
document) this was scandalous behavior. This doesn't mean that the
aliases aren't real names, but they COULD has unpleasant overtones and
connotations the submitter might later regret.
	Keep in mind, also, the dangers of modern translations. In my
modern translation of Piers the Plowman, there is a character called
"Rosie the Racketeer". I do not know what the original name of the
character was, but I'll bet that it wasn't "Rosie the Racketeer". So a
modern translator might have taken unacceptable liberties with a period
name.
	Finally, just because a name was used PRIOR to your persona's
period, doesn't mean that it was used IN your persona's period. There
are a great number of Biblical names dating from anywhere from 1500 B.C.
to 35 A.D. that were never used outside of Jewish culture (if then)
until the late 16th century. How many Ahasuerus's, Potiphar's or Anias's
do you know? How many have you seen in histories and records of any
non-Biblical period? See....
	While, in general, documenting a name from a period source is a
laudable thing, even then you have to be very careful. 

Lothar 
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mjc+@cs.cmu.edu (Monica Cellio)
Subject: Re: Membership Money
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 15:17:06 GMT

>Could anyone tell me what happens to the money sent in for SCA memberships?
>I have been curious for a while, and I don't really buy the storie that it is
>spent on newsletters.

Slightly more than half of a sustaining membership goes for newsletters --
$5 for TI and $8 for your kingdom newsletter.  About $1 goes for insurance,
which I believe is the largest other expense.  The rest goes for legal fees,
rent and supplies for the office, a small number of salaries, travel for 
those who must attend Board meetings, non-newsletter publications (like 
policies that are sent free to kingdom and local officers), and assorted
other things.  I don't have the latest budget to hand, but I'm sure someone
else does (Hi Tibor, you electronic packrat you :-) ).

Ellisif
From: ddfr@quads.uchicago.edu (david director friedman)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: HELP! name searching.
Date: 20 Dec 92 18:10:50 GMT
Reply-To: ddfr@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations


"Also, Snorri Sturlusson was writing about his distant ancestors, and
could have very well have been trying to make them sound more
supernatural and powerful than they really were." (Lothar, on the
discussion of Kveldulf's name)

I believe the identification of Snorri as the author of Egilsaga is a
conjecture; there is no direct evidence, so far as I know, of who
wrote it.

Lothar refers to "Kveldulf" as a nickname. I do not think the saga
ever gives another name. My guess would be that his given name was
"Ulf," and he was called "Kveldulf" either because he was believed to
be a shape changer or for some unrelated reason; that would fit the
pattern of his son's name--"Skallagrim" means, I think, "Grim the
bald." Perhaps someone who knows more about Norse naming could give
more accurate information (Bassi is not, so far as I know, on the
net).

What the saga says, as I remember, is that he worked hard all during
the day but grew weary early and went to bed, and that many people
thought he was a strong shape changer. No shapechanging by him ever
comes into the saga. So far as the saga's description is concerned,
he is a rich farmer, a retired viking, and someone of local
importance--who seems to know more about the future than he ought to.
I do not think there is any suggestion in the saga that he is viewed
with disapproval by his neighbors--and Harald obviously wants him as
a supporter. He is certainly not an "unpredictable madman," nor
"evil." He is an able, prudent, and ferocious man who  gets vengeance
for a real wrong--Harald's killing of Kveldulf's son and refusal to
pay wergeld.

David/Cariadoc
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: tperreau@zia.aoc.nrao.edu (The Mad Scot)
Subject: Plants used for dyes in Scotland - a list
Organization: National Radio Astronomy Observatory, Socorro NM
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 92 04:54:14 GMT

Greetings from Torcail!

It has been a while since I last posted on here, but rest assured that
I have been reading.  Someone asked for some information on natural
dyes found in Scotland.  The listing below is from a handout found at
the Tartan Museum in Comrie, Perthshire.

Name of Plant			Color

Barberry			Yellow
Bog Myrtle			Yellow, Yellow/Brown, Orange
Bramble				Black, Blue/Grey, Green, Pink, Red
Broom				Yellow, Green
Cow Parsley			Yellow/Green, Green
Dandelion			Purple
Elder				Green, Black, Blue/Lilac
Elecampane			Blue
Iris				Black
Juniper				Olive Brown
Knapweed			Yellow, Green, Brown
Lady's Bedstraw			Coral, Crimson, Plum, Yellow
Larch				Brown
Mullein				Yellow, Gold, Green
Nettle				Yellow
Poplar				Yellow
Ragwort				Green, Yellow/Brown
Rhubarb				Green, Yellow, Pink
Rowan Tree			Greenish Yellow, Greyish Brown
St. John's Wort			Yellow, Red
Silver Birch			Yellow, Reddish Brown, Purple, Gold
Sweet Cicely			Green
Teasel				Yellow
Tormentil			Rose Red with Alum, Purplish Red with Crome
Water Lily			Black
Willow				Cinnamon

Thus concludes the list.

Remember that the colors will be nowhere as bright as the man made dyes, nor
even as bright as the "ancient" tartans offered by outfitters.

I hope that this list has been of help to some.

-- 
===============================================================================
Tony Perreault, High Tech Babysitter & Nanny      tperreau@banshee.vla.nrao.edu
Array Operations, Very Large Array	          All opinions expressed are my
Socorro, NM				            own and not those of NRAO