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Date:         Mon, 16 Nov 1992 06:29:53 EST
From:         Brandon Magee <cuz@CHAOS.CS.BRANDEIS.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Flag Burning
Comments: To: POLITICS@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu
              "POLITICS@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu" at Nov 13, 92 7:26 pm

While under delusions of grandeur, POLITICS@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu
(actually Jayce) spewed:

Jayce, could you try to include some sort of paragraphing form in your
posts? Solid paragraph posts are hellish to read, and even harder to
quote. [Just a suggestion :) ]

| I grant the fact that one's 1st ammendment rights should not be violated, but
| also in the first ammendment it does not say flag burning is a proper way of
| voicing displeasure, either.

	For reference sake, the first amendment.

> 1st Amendment
> Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of
> religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging
> the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the
> people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for
> a redress of grievances.

	Notice that the Amendment does not enumerate what is or isn't
Free Speech. It is intentionally vague, and the SC has ruled that Flag
Burning is protected by this amendment. I happen to agree. However, I
don't envision me burning a flag in displeasure any time soon. [2 1/2
Yrs ago I was in DC for some workshop, and I was on The Hill. At the
time there was a person who was there trying to get people to sign a
petition to make Flag Burning illegal. Most of the people I was with
signed it. I did not. just a personal story I'd thought I'd share]

| I think it was j.b. who said Pearl Harbor was
| not an attack on the US and those that died in this travesty were not
| defending their country.  (If it wasn't j.b. I apologize 'cuz I wouldn't want
| to OFFEND anyone, now would I?????) Well, I think that most of those that
|fought in that battle would REALLY disagree with you on that one.  It must bee
|easy for someone who wasn't there to say that those that were fighting WEREN'T
|  defending their country. Like I said earlier, burn the flag in the
| face of most veterans and EXPLAIN to them that this is just a matter of you
| voicing your displeasure that they fought to defend.

	I think you missed jb's (or whoever it was) point. He said
that These soldiers did NOT fight for the flag, they fought for the
COUNTRY. Although I have never been in a military battle (and really
hope I never am), I doubt I would be thinking of a symbol while
fighting. (Actually, I doubt I would be thinking of anything but
surviving :)). I can under stand people not liking the Flag burned.
Thatis an opinion. If they acted on it, (in some physical manner) then
that is being somewhat intolerant, isn't it?

| Our flag is not just a
|"piece of cloth," it is indeed a symbol of our country, one of if not the most
|powerful of symbols.  What exactly do you find wrong about pledging allegience
|to that "piece of cloth?"

	Our flag IS a piece of cloth, as well as a symbol. It is an
important symbol, however, I'd rather see someone burn a flag then
take away my basic rights. And if people want to pledge allegiance to
a cloth, so be it.

|  Have you ever thought about the words to _The
|Star-Spangled Banner_ and exactly what that song means?  I guess you must have
| thought Rosanne Barr's rendition of the Anthem was proper and appropriate for
| her to show her artistic ability in honoring this country.

	Personally I don't like our National Anthem. I would much
rather sing a song like "America the Beautiful" which talks about our
great nation. Much better than talking about a war scene and a symbol.
As far as Rosie goes, she can't sing. Simple enough. And I refuse to
talk about the crotch grabbing, as it had nothing to do with the
anthem.

| I am not saying
| decent should be silenced, Julie, I merely disagree with this particular
| vehicle.  Sinead O'Connor's tearing up the picture of the Pope caused quite a
|stir, and I found that equally disturbing.  I am not religious either, so that
| is not my motivation for this stance.  I suppose my point is this:  There are
| other ways of voicing displeasure and I don't believe Burning Our Flag is a
| proper channel for this displeasure.

	It's all a matter of opinion. I think both acts should be
legal, although I can't foresee me doing either of these acts.

| If any display should be tolerated, did
| you find burning of crosses in front of Black's houses wrong?

	Legally or morally? I find it morally reprehensible, but IF
the crosses were not on the private property of the black person (or
anyone else who doesn't want it) then it is, and should be legal.

| Should a
| Satanist be allowed to perform a ritual or two on the square of most cities?

	Yes. Absolutely

|Should Nazi's (of which I am NOT one) be allowed to picket the houses of Jews?

	See my answer to the Cross question. I think these are similar
situations.

|Should a member of the KKK wear their robes, etc, around wherever they go, and
| be protected for doing so if someone "voices" their displeasure with this
| course of action?

	Of course they should be able to. Whether or not it would be
smart of them is another matter. The First amendment does not prohibit
speech which other people don't like, and rightfully so. If it did, We
would live in an awfully quite country. [Just because a person is a
member of some group does not mean that laws that protect people stop
protecting him]

  I think I'm making my point here.  These actions in and of
| themselves are not "harming" those of whom they are aimed against, but they
| aren't RIGHT either.  Freedom is one thing, but I believe also that certain
| items, such as our flag, should not be desecrated to voice this freedom.

	"Right" is a very ambiguious term. If you are going to have
freedom, you have to take the things that you like with the things you
dislike. If you don't, you aren't practicing freedom, but your own
brand of totalitarianism. Let me reiterate my point with regards to
the flag. I don't think it should be desecrated, however, i think it
should be legal for one to do so.

	I would also like to thank Micheal McCarthy for accepting me
into his staff. However, do I get a neat title? [Undersecretary to the
History Czar, 18-19th Century division? :) ]

--
 Cousin It                                          cuz@cs.brandeis.edu
"I can't believe I find a way, to make it thru this hell everyday, slip,
   slipping my reality slips away, sleep, sleeping seems the only way"
		       -Mordred  "Falling Away"-
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