From: alumni106@camins.camosun.bc.ca (Max Sterling)
Subject: Re: Hepburn & kunrei romanization
Organization: Camosun College
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1992 09:36:14 GMT

In article <MS-C.719137838.1103527590.mrc@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU>, Mark Crispin <mrc@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU> writes:

> If you have an easier time at interpreting Japanese in Hepburn than in
> kunrei-shiki, or if you have an easier time at interpreting Japanese in
> kunrei-shiki than in Hepburn, then your study of Japanese has not progressed
> very far.

Damn right. Before I got Barron's "Japanese Verbs" book, I didn't even 
know there WAS another romanization form.

> You should be equally capable in both systems, as well as being able to handle
> the occasional curve ball (e.g. `jya') that native Japanese will throw your
> way in actual real-life use (as opposed to ivory-tower academia).

Hmmm... is that any different from "ja", or is it the same thing?

> You should be equally capable of handling all the forms of long vowels:
>  . non-indication, such as is used in most English-language texts that print
>    `Tokyo' for the name of Japan's capital
>  . macrons (`To^kyo^' although the macron belongs *over* the vowel instead of
>    following it), which are the official forms for Hepburn *and* kunrei-shiki
>  . vowel-doubling without regard to pronunciation and kana values (`Tookyoo')
>  . vowel-doubling following kana/pronunciation (`Toukyou')

Those I have no trouble with, but again, the "ou" took a while to figure 
out. Then again, that's only 1 thing to worry about (and in my EXTREMELY 
limited experience is a direct romanization or the kana form anyway), 
whereas in kunrei, there's "ti", "tu", "zi", "di" and all the other 
stuff to worry about. Just out of curiosity, how would kunrei handle the 
Hepburn phoenetics such as "ti", "ju", "sho", "tse", etc?

> [Note: in the speech of some native speakers there is a difference between the
>  `ou' and `oo', as well as the `ei' and `ee' sound.  In others, the difference
>  is imperceptable.  Japanese teachers in the US try to make their students
>  believe that it is always imperceptable.]

I THOUGHT so! That would explain a LOT that I picked up while watching 
various anime films. eg. In Macross, Misa would stress the i in 
something like "oboete imasu ka", but Minmay wouldn't, etc.

> You should be equally capable of handling multiple forms of writing particles:
>  . wa for reference, e for direction, o for object
>  . ha for reference, he for direction, wo for object

It was my understanding that the former was the romanized version, and 
the latter was the kana version.

> Which system you use for writing is a matter of personal choice.  I suggest
> that you try to stay within the bounds of known usage and not mix conventions
> excessively.  My preference is for Hepburn, macrons (secondarily
> vowel-doubling following kana), and ha/he/wo for particles.  Your mileage may
> vary.

Well, I'm trying to avoid romanized forms altogether now and I'm 
attempting to learn the kanas (I've memorized about 2/3 of them so far), 
but it's pretty slow going. However, if I MUST use a romanized form, my 
preference is Hepburn phoenetics (since that's all I'm used to), with 
doubled vowels. I was wondering, how come doubled consonants are never 
written in macron form? Is there any special reason for it, or has 
nobody thought of doing it yet?

> beneath their dignity.  If you are going to use Japanese in any practical way,
> you have to be able to handle whatever gets tossed at you.  The kunrei-shiki
> bigot, like his cousin the Hepburn bigot, is in form an unpleasant surprise
> when faced with the reality in Japan.

Well, by the time I go over to Japan, I expect to be able to speak the 
language and read Kanji fluently. If it takes 15 years or more, then so 
be it. Mata ne.

                                                          -=]> Max <[=-

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