From: schwae@marcus.its.rpi.edu (Eric A. Schwartz)
Subject: Re: New Subscriber and a look on hunting
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy NY
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1992 06:04:43 GMT

In article <1992Apr6.144103.4831@ac.dal.ca> robinson@ac.dal.ca writes:
>In article <=_xt5n-@rpi.edu>, schwae@marcus.its.rpi.edu (Eric A. Schwartz) writes:
>> In article <rcoppINN9fg@agate.berkeley.edu> linan@argon.berkeley.edu (Mike Linan) writes:
>>>In article <1992Apr1.015813.12388@wpg.com> russ@wpg.com (Russell Lawrence) writes:
>>>>From article <r7gvqINNhsv@agate.berkeley.edu>, by linan@argon.berkeley.edu (Mike Linan):
>[...stuff removed...]
>
>> It isn't obvious, and there may not even be any such effects yet.  _Yet_
>> In fact, before all the hunters started saying deer were forced to be
>> nocturnal, I wasn't aware of any species-wide deleterious effects of
>> hunting.  In any case, the fact that it may be harmful to deer warrants
>> some investigation, and changes to hunting practice if it proves to
>> actually be so.
>
>If *you* were a hunter you would have realized that deer are predominantly 
>nocturnal as it is.  The become somewhat more so during hunting season.  

Deer are crepuscular, not nocturnal.  In any case, if *I* were a hunter,
*I* might have been the one to say they turned nocturnal only during the
hunting season.  I was stating an argument used by _a hunter_, not
anything I personally happen to have observed about deer.  So apparently,
I should thank you for supporting my point.  Hunters don't know as much
as they think.

>The change lasts usually until the mating season hits (the first good cold 
>snap usually does it) when their instinct to mate overrides their fear of 
>humans to some degree.  As a result of this mating instinct, they rebound 
>from the end of hunting season quite quickly (no hunters in the woods).  
>Indeed, one could even argue that they become more secretive on the 
>weekends, and less on the weekdays (more people hunt on the weekends).  The 
>long and short of it is that the impact of hunters on hunted is not likely 
>to causes any deliterious effects on a species wide scale.  But then, if 
>you knew more about deer (like the hunters here) you'd know that already.
>
Could be true.  I don't have adequate data to determine that for sure
(like the hunters here).  Unlike the hunters, I acknowledge that
fact.  Maybe hunting is not harmful to the deer.  I don't happen to
think it is.  But _if_ it is, would you support it, and how would you
justify it?
 
>> As for if hunters were getting only strong healthy deer, that woulld
>> be clearly bad.  If strong deer die, only weak, sickly (suffering)
>> deer would live.  And it would only be a matter of time before deer 
>> will cease to be deer, and be a smaller, weaker, nocturnal, infertile
>> animal, different from deer.  Even from a selfish point of view, 
>> you should realize that would leave you no deer to hunt.
>
>Your arguement sounds good on the surface.  So why, after 60+ years of 
>managed hunting hasn't it come about?  The answer is complex, but part of 
>it lies in the fact that hunting takes place in the fall, when most of the 
>animals except the really old are healthy.  They don't start to get sick 
>until they begin to starve.  Killing animals off just before the prime food 
>shortage (winter) helps insure that fewer get sick, starve and die.  Thus, 
>the health of the entire herd is enhanced.
>
Why?  Maybe because hunters aren't getting only healthy deer.  Maybe 
because the fall is a good time to kill them.  Maybe many things neither
of us knows.  Notice the "if" three words into the paragraph.  I was
not saying it was true, just answering a hypothetical claim made by one
hunter that taking only the biggest deer wouldn't harm the herd.  I
also suppose my use of the word "sick" may not have been entirely correct
in context.  I didn't mean the ones that are ill due to accident disease
or starvation.  I meant the small, puny ones who are genetically weaker
than the bigger, faster, smarter, stronger ones who any natural predator
would avoid. 

E.S.