HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Rapier Combat in Meridie
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1992 01:11:02

Greetings unto Wolfrick Thorinsson, from Stephen of the Grove!

You wrote...

>I would respectfully point out that "duels" as you have defined them _DO_
>occur in the SCA.  I am referring to challenge or honour duels.  These
>combats do occasionally arise, and are a valid part of the re-creation we
>do.  If one feels dishonoured or wronged, the Field of Honour can be an
>appropriate means of redress.  As long as these "duels" are strictly
>within the rules of SCA combat (either Medieval or Renaisance styles) then
>IMHO they are appropriate.

I disagree.  Since our entire system of combat (both heavy and ligh
t) is based on honor, conducting a fight that was arranged
*because* you are angry with someone is, in my opinion, something
that should not happen.  I am not, of course, talking about the
duels that are arranged as a part of the game, those done in jest,
etc.  But a duel where the combatants are truly upset with each
other is a bad thing.

Should I talk about blow-calling problems?  No, I'll let you make
up your own mind.  You seem to have the background necessary to
figure it out.

However, blow calling is rather minor.  What about safety?  For
instance, we don't grapple, normally, but someone may in this
situation.  They also may use non-standard attacks, such as
kicking, or hitting with the bell.  If they have lost their temper,
do we know that they will stop when their opponent calls a blow?
We tend to avoid throwing intentional cup-shots, but in this
situation?

And in heavy weapons, the problem is even worse.

Of course, it is likely that none of these (admitedly extreme)
examples will happen.  But they are possible, and staging a fight
under these circumstances increases the chance.

And, when the fight is over, what has been done?  Will either of
the fighters feel that the original problem has been adequetly
dealt with?  Does we (the SCA as a whole) believe that Might Makes
Right?  Has justice, or anything else, been served?  Should
non-fighters be the inherent "bad-guy" whenever a fighter insults
them in some way?

Rule 6 in the Rules of the Lists says:

6.  Combatants shall behave in a knightly and chivalrous manner,
and shall fight according to the appropriate Society and Kingdom
Conventions of Combat.

This doesn't sound too chivalrous to me.

Stephen of the Grove
Steppes/Ansteorra        FIDO 1:124/4229
Stephen.Whitis@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org
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 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman)
Subject: Re: Why not pentacles:
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 17:59:10 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

Greetings from Arval!  Moreach wrote:

> Since we can *prove* that the pentacle is really a *Christian* symbol in
> period, wouldn't it be more useful to explain to pagan submitters that it
> doesn't represent what they want anyway? 

Yes, I agree in general.  This id exactly the sort of education on which we
should concentrate.  However, note that what we can prove is that the
pentacle was used as a Christian symbol, not that it was _not_ used in
other ways.

> It seems to me that a pagan using a pentacle is in violation of the Rules
> of Submission in regards to use of *modern* symbolism if it isn't  pagan
> within period.  

The Rules for Submission say nothing of the kind, unless the end effect is
blatantly modern.  Since the pentacle is, in fact, a period armorial
charge, simply using it does not make the design blatantly modern.  The
College of Arms does not consider the submitter's reasons for using
charges.

> And surely there are other symbols that pagans can use beside Thor's
> hammer.

The fundamental problem is that modern paganism, by and large, has nothing
to do with any period religion.  Like any modern idea, it doesn't fit into
medieval re-creation.  This is a problem of education: Just as we need to
teach people that fantasy novels are not an accurate picture of medieval
history, we need to teach them that modern paganism is not an accurate
picture of medieval religion.  

===========================================================================
Arval Benicoeur                                       mittle@watson.ibm.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: PORTERG@ruby.vcu.EDU (Greg Porter)
Subject: Re: anti-SCA/wargaming attitudes
Organization: The Internet
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 20:27:00 GMT

	Greetings to the Rialto:

	If you refer back to my original post, you will notice that I 
specifially referred to 'fundamentalist-types' not fundamentalists.  This is
the shortest way I have been able to find to refer to those people who wrap
themselves so tightly in their beliefs that nothing they don't already believe
makes it into their thoughts. In short, possessors of truly closed minds.  I
realize that the term 'fundamentalist' generally refers to those who believe
in a more basic or 'fundamental' form of the religion in question, and does 
not reflect on their willingness to accept that there are other ways of doing
things, nor whether or not they believe different=bad.  I generally try to 
avoid sweeping generalizations.

	Fare well,

	Morgan Wolfsinger (Catherine DeMott)
From: graydon@micor.ocunix.on.ca (Graydon)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Photography has its benefits
Date: 26 Jul 92 14:26:34 GMT
Organization: M.B. Cormier INC.

aboz@egf-bbs.uucp (Aboz the Untidy) writes:

> As a member of a new (6 months) group, I see a number of benefits to
> having photos of events.    
> At our first meeting, only the seneschale and her husband had ANY SCA
> experience.  Their photo albums were invaluable in showing us what could
> be accomplished in the way of garb, arts, etc, as well as giving a glimpse
> of what events and pennsic might be like.   Untill this past weekend, only
> 4 of our members had been to an event other than ours, and the pictures
> brought back helped encourage attendance.  Sort of like "See what you
> missed, you should try to get to these things."
> 
> Berwynn Aethelbryght, Pursuivant of the Shire of Elverod, Grand Forks, ND
>                 BKA (Known on the BBS as) Aboz the Untidy


There is also the opinion that doing what everyone else is doing 
is not neccesarily what you want to do; lots of established custom
could be improved upon, and it is the marcher groups that frequently
accomplish this.

as for 'obtrusive modernities' - you don't care about the same things
that I care about.  I didn't really expect to get anyone to believe
me about the camera thread, since I'm arguing with 50 years of Eastman
Kodak's advertizing department, but I have this thing about windmills.

Good luck getting your group going!

Graydon

        Graydon the Curious         /graydon@micor.ocunix.on.ca
  Skraeling Althing, EAldormere, MK / "Nihil est quin obsisti possit"
From: Cat.Moran@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Cat Moran)
Sender: FredGate@ocitor.fidonet
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Cameras in the SCA, (ori
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1992 12:30:00

zz> Perhaps not your intended purpose, but there WERE cameras in period.
zz> The "Camera Lucida" (modern graphic artists call them "Lucies")
zz> was a box with a lens and a mirror at an angle, and a piece of glass on
zz> with a shield or screen of some type, similar to the drape on a view ca
zz> The (admittedly NON CANDID) subject was brightly lit, usually outdoors
zz> the sunlight, and the camera operator (ok, so he or she is
zz> an artist) places a
zz> piece of parchment on the glass, and traces the projected image with a
zz> charcoal, etc.

There were some actual photographs taken in period - I saw copies
of the pictures in my History of Photography class in college.  The
text book dated them to about 14th century, if I'm remembering
correctly.  (I've lost the text book, and the class was several
years ago)  The picture was nothing like what we get now - the
"film" was a mixture of what something similar to asphalt, and egg
whites (and probably something else I've forgotten).  It was very
grainy.  Also, the "subject" (the buildings along a street) had to
"sit" for the picture for about 8 hours.  After the 8 hour
exposure, the plate was washed, and what didn't come off was the
picture.  Of course it wasn't practical - anyone who can draw a
straight line and a semblance of perspective could create a more
detailed picture of the same scene in much less time.

Sorry I don't have any documentation - if I run across it, I'll
post it.
___
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 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: archer@utkux1.utk.edu (T. Archer)
Subject: Re: Rape, women, carrying weapons
Organization: University of Tennessee Division of Continuing Education
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 19:22:52 GMT

In article <1992Jul22.181209.24994@samba.oit.unc.edu> Ann.Feeney@bbs.oit.unc.edu (Ann Feeney) writes:

>Not only that they can lead to fatalities, but if your attacker
>is bigger, srtonger, luckier, whatever, your little knife can
>quickly be used _against_ you, either as extra co-ercion, or
>as a weapon.

While this is a possibility, this is not always the case.

>So in other words, they can't help, and they're very likely to get 
>not only the attacker (for whom I have little sympathy--if it's
>a question of his/her safety, I'd say carry all the knives you
>want), but the weapon is more likely to hurt you.
                       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

This is not accurate.  Last years Uniform Crime Report, issued annually by 
the FBI, showed resistance in ANY form is better than non-resistance.  
Further, less than 7% of weapons used in self-defense were turned against 
the victim.


-=-=-
T. Archer  PA142548@utkvm1.utk.edu
University of Tennessee
"Vote Dempublican, it's easier than thinking." -- Unknown
-=-=-
From: Joe.Bethancourt@f166.n114.z1.fidonet.org (Joe Bethancourt)
Sender: Uucp@blkcat.UUCP
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Why not pentacles:
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1992 15:03:05 -0500

 -=> Josh Mittleman said to All on 07-17-92  19:02 <=- 

 JM> From: mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman)

 JM> Greetings from Arval!  Ioseph wrote:
 
 > As a piece of information as to "Why don't we allow the pentagram /
 > pentacle to be used in SCA heraldry...

Let me state something right now: I am of the FIRM opinion that we should
allow the pentacle in SCA heraldry. I am searching for period references
to its use (other than in Malory).

 JM> One thing that worries me about this problem is that we seem to react
 JM> to it by running away.  The article you posted, Ioseph, is libelous and
 JM> clearly damages the good name and reputation of the SCA, Inc.  Why
 JM> aren't our lawyers out there making sure that the authors stop
 JM> distributing it? 

I asked the BoD the same question 3 years ago when I first found the file
from a neo-pagan BBS in California. No answer.

-From the Aten Gulag Archepelago:

                                                        -Ioseph of Locksley
                                                         Grumpy Libertarian

... REALITY-OMETER:  [\........]  Hmmph!  Thought so ...
From: jailbait@wookumz.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Jailbait)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: What's a filk?
Date: 28 Jul 92 18:41:15 GMT
	<394-JNEWS-2.1@smylex.UUCP> <3195@creatures.cs.vt.edu>
Reply-To: jailbait@gnu.ai.mit.edu
Followup-To: rec.org.sca
Organization: JB Distribution Uninc.

Greetings to all.

I have but one comment on Angharad's well written and admirably
even-handed missive:
The problem is that, if it were required that all
campfire/revel/circle songs were to be in period, a) the performances
would fall squarely on the backs of the small number of people who
have a special interest in period music, enough to learn an adequate
repetoire, and  b) The rest, who wish to revel, but have not the
inclinations/time/ability to do this branch of research are left in
the cold.

While I much admire those who are able to provide a full evenings
entertainment entirely in period, this number is but a Small part of
all gentles who would wish to participate.

Indeed, a side problem is that I could quite easily envision a core of
30+- songs being distributed and learned, just as there is a core
series of dances that everyone knows. While this would be acceptable
for a short period of time, it would not, I fear, be a reasonable
approach for 6000+ around 200+ campfires at War.

I have not a solution for you, good sir, but indeed, the sound of a
modern (17C+) song around a campfire does not bother my ear, either.

In (really rather dubious, in terms of this post) Service,
JB
Richard
Whatever
House Drunken Badger
From: carl@silver.lcs.mit.edu (Carl J.M. Alexander)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Rape, women, carrying weapons
Date: 30 Jul 92 05:05:30 GMT
Organization: Organization???

Corun MacAnndra writes:
>
>Lothar von Katzenellenbogen writes;
>
>> I feel that the problem of security (esp. against theft) at Pennsic has
>> largely been ignored.
>
>  Milord, I take personal exception to this comment. As one who has been on
>the inside looking out with respect to the running of security, I can tell
>you unequivocally that security has NOT been ignored at Pennsic. Excuse me
>if I flame here for a bit....
 
Fortunately, Lord Corun did not really flame, though he did smoke at 
the ears a bit.  ;^)  
 
I have myself worked security at various camping events, including 
Pennsic, and my experience agrees with most of what Corun posted.
(Where my experience does not agree with his, it generally has to 
do with the fact that this will be my first Pennsic in nine years: 
things change when you triple an event's size.)
 
However, I am concerned wity Corun's response to Lothar.  I've gone 
back and looked at Lothar's original post, and I do not think that 
he intended any slight to those who work security at the war.
Rather, I think he was speaking of the fact that too many of the 
attendees at Pennsic tend to ignore security concerns:  people tend 
to arrive at the war with the attitude that they are in a hazard-free 
environment.  My experience agrees with this, and it seems clear to 
me from his post that Corun also would agree that too many people at 
Pennsic feel so carefree as to be careless.
 
The point I wish to make applies not just to this one post but to 
the Rialto as a whole:  please, good gentles all, try to be 
generous in your interpretations of others' words; or, at least, 
try not to assume that someone intended to insult you unless 
their words are unequivocal.  I think we will all be far happier 
in the long run if we endeavour to swallow our gorge when it 
rises -- or at least try to channel it constructively -- and 
keep flaming on the Rialto down to the minimum possible.
 
Alexander of Kiev                       Carolingia, East

Carl Alexander                          Harvard Square, Cambridge, Mass.
carl@silver.lcs.mit.edu 
 
P.S.  Let me reiterate that I do not think Corun's post really 
qualifies as a flame; I am just extremely sensitive to the fire 
hazard right now, as a recent flamewar may have cost us one of
our wisest contributors.
 
--Alexander
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: jtn@nutter.cs.vt.edu (Terry Nutter)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: twinkie names
Date: 24 Jul 92 06:10:38 GMT
Followup-To: rec.org.sca
Organization: SCA

Unto the good gentles of the Rialto does Hossein Ali Qomi send greetings
and prayers for the blessings of Allah, especially unto Tadhg and Godfrey.

>>  If you bothered
>>  to look into the subject (heavens, what a thought)
>
>Ah, you're doing MORE than insinuating.  You're being BLATANTLY insulting.

Indeed, he is.  It's one of his more charming and engaging attributes --
you know, one of the reasons why debates at Oxford and Cambridge are vastly
more fun than the bland sorts of things they call "debates" in the U.S.  I,
personally, _love_ a good argument with Tadhg.

>> you would find that
>> "hordes" were named after colors, not metals.
>
>Can you quote some sources for this statement, please?

Sorry, gentlemen, you're both wrong on this one.  _Orduha_ were named after
the commanders, not after metals or colors (with one exception, but his
name was appended to the "golden" descriptor).  "Horde" is the English
borrow-form of the Persian word _ordu_, which means "army" or "military
encampment."  The word was borrowed from Persian into Uighur (the predominant
written language of the Mongols) in the 13th century, and from Persian into 
English in the 18th century (it's what Moghul emperors called their armies
in India, the commanders of which were largely Persian mercenaries).

Best Wishes,

Hossein/Greg
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: zebee@ucs.adelaide.edu.au (Zebee Johnstone)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period vs. Filk (was Basic Courtesy)
Date: 28 Jul 92 05:30:44 GMT
Organization: Information Technology Division, The University of Adelaide, AUSTRALIA

whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt) writes:

>In article <Bs2Cu3.JHo@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca> aryk@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (A.J.S. Nusbacher) writes:
>>Factor:  We try to create a more specific ambience in the Trayned Bandes
>>encampment -- we're after 1592, 
>>
>>Any song with words and music that come from five years to either side of
>>1592 are fine.  
>>

>Given what you're doing, i fully understand your saying 'nothing more
>than five years *after* 1592', bu the 'five years *before*'
>restriction puzzles me.  Surely, earlier works would be know (after,
>500 years later *we've* got them) though they might no be popular.  I

As support for Hal, I'd point out thatthe song "The Outlandish Knight"
(nothing to do with the Kingdom, it is about a bloke into 
murdering his girlfriends) was being sung as a regular turn in 
an English rural village in the 1880s, according to the semi-
autobiographical book "Lark Rise to Candleford".  It was considered
old fashioned but acceptable.  Internal evidence suggests it was 
500 years or more old then.

I was singing folk songs passed down from my mother to me and 
from her gandmother to her, and in turn I have passed them on.

So why the "early" cutoff date?

-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------
     Zebee Johnstone  DoD #605   | You don't own an Italian motorcycle 
     Adelaide City Council       |  - you merely have the privilege 
    zebee@itd.adelaide.edu.au    |    of paying its bills....
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 14:36:04 EDT
From: Therion <HZS@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: But it's period!

For the amusement and edification of gentles (besides myself) who have gotten
bored with the current long-winded discussions on twinkie names, filk songs,
courtesy, and Pennsic paranoia, I offer the following interesting item that I
received through an Israeli listserve:

>Date: Tue, 28 Jul 92 12:33:31 -0400
>Comment: Media clips, editorials and information on Israel and the Middle East
>Originator: israel-mideast@israel.nysernet.org
>From: saar@nysernet.ORG (Gideon Saar)
>To: Multiple recipients of list <israel-mideast@nysernet.ORG>
>Subject: domestic gems27
>
>DOMESTIC GEMS
>27-JUL-1992
>
>(Index: Hashish 1,600 years old identified; IBM buys medical computers in
>Israel; oil slicks removed by natural materials).
>
>ISRAELI SPRAY IDENTIFIES HASHISH 1,600 YEARS OLD
>   ("Davar")
>
>   An anthropologist of the Antiquities Authority, Joe Zias,  has  succeeded
>in identifying hashish 1,600 years old through  a  spray  used  to  discover
>drugs. He found traces of hashish in the body of a girl in a  cave  at  Beit
>Shemesh, older than 1,600 years. The girl died  while  giving  birth.  Glass
>vessels were found by her body, apparently  receptacles  for  the  drug.  An
>Israeli-developed  drug-revealing  spray  called  Canby-Spray  was  used  to
>identify the presence of the hashish.


 //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
     internet:        ||    Therion Calgate     ||
 hzs@psuvm.psu.edu    || Mountain Confederation ||    the above posting is
                      ||        Warlord         || for educational value only.
   I said what?       ||   of House Decadence   ||    do not take internally.
 \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
From: salley@niktow.canisius.edu (David Salley)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Scadian Police (was Re: pentacles)
Date: 23 Jul 92 16:22:25 GMT
Organization: Canisius College, Buffalo NY. 14208

Hal Ravn writes:
> There are two SCA members (that I know of) on the force in or near Los
> Angeles.  (One of them, by the way, had a *very* near miss in the late
> unpleasantness there--a bullet went through his police helmet from
> front to back leaving him with a minor concussion.  

That was Duke Sir Hanno. He originally joined the SCA here in Rhydderich Hael 
(Buffalo, NY).  His parents still live here and we heard the same story from
them.  After Hanno got treated, he was sitting in the waiting room waiting for
results and watching CNN news when he suddenly realized that he was watching a 
film clip of _himself_ being wheeled into the hospital.  He called home and 
when his father answered the phone, yelled "Dad, It's Jim! I'm all right!"
Fortunately, his parents had not been watching TV at the time.  

Hanno originally moved out to California to be a Hollywood stunt man.  There's 
a Marine Corp commercial that starts out as a living chess game where the 
pieces battle each other until only a white knight is left and he transforms
into a Marine.  Next time you see it, watch the Black queen's knight closely.
He's the last "piece" to fall to the white knight.  He's also Hanno.

                                                       - Dagonell

SCA Persona : Lord Dagonell Collingwood of Emerald Lake, CSC, CK, CTr
Habitat	    : East Kingdom, AEthelmearc Principality, Rhydderich Hael Barony
Disclaimer  : A society that needs disclaimers has too many lawyers.
Internet    : salley@niktow.cs.canisius.edu
USnail-net  : David P. Salley, 136 Shepard Street, Buffalo, New York 14212-2029
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca