From: tlynch@cco.caltech.edu (Timothy W. Lynch)
Subject: Re: Locarno = Kirk (Spoilers "First Duty"))
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1992 17:49:47 GMT

maj1@Ra.MsState.Edu (Mark "Beren" Jamison) writes:
>tlynch@cco.caltech.edu (Timothy W. Lynch) writes:
>>kyle@uunet.uu.net (Kyle Jones) writes:

>>>ccmk@lure.latrobe.edu.au writes:
>>> > The emphasis is on the refusal to give in no matter the odds.

>>>tlynch@cco.caltech.edu (Timothy W. Lynch) writes:
>>> > That's not an "I will not fail".  That's an "I will not give up"; and I 
>>> > find that an admirable quality most of the time.  The "I will not fail"
>>> > is adolescent arrogance at its worst.

>>>OK, assuming for a moment that you're right: give us an example
>>>of Kirk taking on something that's way over his head, ignoring
>>>all warnings, and just foolishly bulling ahead.

>>Refusing to do a thing about Gary Mitchell until it was damn near too late
>>in "Where No Man Has Gone Before"?  Letting Khan get in close enough to 
>>cripple the Enterprise in ST2?

>Where do these signify the "I will not fail" mentality?? 

You mean saying "there can't be anything wrong with the Reliant because I'm
James Kirk and invulnerable"?

>As far as Kahn was concerned?? Where is he ignoring all warnings??

Ohhh, I don't know...completely ignoring standard (and *sensible*) regulations
involving ships that are coming towards you and silent running, not doing any-
thing to safeguard the ship until the Reliant's shields were up *and* weapons
were locked, and thus pummeling the ship.  You know, the error that caused 
the damage that in the end, drove Spock to sacrifice himself.  That error.

>This is something I really don't understand in most Kirk Bashers (tm),

I'm afraid I don't see any around.  You'll have to deal with those actually
posting.  I don't bash Kirk lightly, nor on a regular basis.  (Shatner, 
perhaps.  :-) )  I will not, however, accept the picture given of "he had no 
flaws and was a perfect man in every way", nor will I refuse to acknowledge
parallels that I see.  If you and others intend to label me a rabid Kirk-
basher for it, feel free.

>they refuse to take as cannon TOS, which in several episodes describe Kirk
>as a Stick in the mud during his academy days.. If anything, based on 
>what we have learned from the shows, and ignoring neat plot devices thrown
>into a Movie, Locarno = Picard.. 

"Neat plot devices" thrown into the greatest TOS-characters product ever
filmed, IMO.   You can discount ST2 if you like; I shan't.

And as for the Locarno=Picard analogy [thought up by those getting *extremely*
defensive about the L/K connection, I might add], I've already pointed out
elsewhere that there's no evidence for either Locarno being a hell-raiser or
for Picard being outright *dishonest*.  We know Picard was troublesome and
perhaps disruptive; all appearances from TFD indicate that Locarno was viewed
very favorably by the Academy at large, faculty and students alike.  And
Picard's never been said to lie or cheat at the Academy in any form; Locarno
and Kirk have.

Locarno/Kirk is not a perfect analogy; I've long since clarified my position on
that.  Locarno/Picard is a meaningless one, particularly since the overt lines
drawn in the show itself were for Wes/Picard/Boothby.  I think that when poor
Scott Gorcey started this thread, he didn't realize quite what a bundle of 
raw nerves he was going to set off.  

>Even if we accept STII as cannon we have 
>one instance of Kirk doing something in his academy days that only remotely
>is similar to Locarno, 

The remoteness is under some discussion, it seems.  You can dismiss it if
you like; I've already granted that Locarno is far more dishonest and venal
than Kirk's ever been shown to be.  The bare facts of Kirk cheating on the 
KM test do not appear to be a problem, though; it's the discussion of what
it means that's caused the uproar.

>Picard however has a very vague, but distinctively
>rawdy and bawdy description of his days at the Academy.. 

Neither of which appear to apply to Locarno.  He *looked* like a model 
student until this happened, eh?

Tim Lynch (Cornell's first Astronomy B.A.; one of many Caltech grad students)
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