From: rowjosp@yalevm.ycc.yale.edu (Si Rowe)
Subject: Re: Sandman Thoughts!!!
Followup-To: rec.arts.comics.misc
Organization: some hopeless undergrad, Yale University
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 06:55:33 GMT

In article <1993Jan22.033054.15048@blaze.cs.jhu.edu>,
arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee) wrote:
> 
> In article <1993Jan20.234458.1@fnalo.fnal.gov> morrow@fnalo.fnal.gov (Elmo the Stunt Elk) writes:
> >> 1)  Were the Endless created by God directly or came into existence as a
> >>     side effect of his creations?  I'm under the impression that the
> >>     Endless weren't created directly but were a side effect of his
> >>     works.  The first created beings (with sentience) were the angels.
> >>     As soon as God created the first angel, the side effect of that one
> >>     act was all the Endless coming into existence.
> >	Thematically, Sandman breaks down to "All stories are true".

Yes!

> Is the story "all stories are not true" also true?

If you need it to be. It seems an awful way to live.
 
> This question would of course only be a cute self-reference paradox were it
> not for the fact that lots of stories _do_ deny the truth of others, and not
> only that, this denial is a greatly emphasized, core part, of the story that
> cannot simply be omitted.
> 
> I do expect coherence to some degree in my fiction.  Given the number of myths
> that place great importance on the untruth of other myths, to say that all
> myths are true, in any conventional sense of "true", fails the willing
> suspension of disbelief test as much as a story where everyone sings songs
> about the Vietnam War without there actually having been a Vietnam War.

  Well, as a very firm Christian who also finds a tremendous truth in
other myths, I have no problem with this. Then again, I have a very
loose understanding of the word *truth*. I'll try to put it so it's
somewhat comprehensible:

Assume: Truth is infinite.
1. My potential of comprehension is finite.
2. Therefore, what may *seem* like contradiction to my reason may
    actually be completely compatible.

The analogy I use is that most people have a binary or linear idea of
truth: just two extremes. People disagree on what these extremes are.
Each of these makes a line, or a plane; together, these are the sides
of a multi-sided figure, which is ultimate Truth. (Compare Dr. Man-
hattan in _Watchmen_ on time for a similar explanation.)

Corollary: Reason, while a useful tool, is not the *only* way to the
Truth, and can sometimes be detrimental to it. (The Tao that can be
described is not the true Tao.)

It's a bit like light: it can be both a wave and a particle stream,
depending on how you look at it.

> There are also myths that don't _directly_ deny the truth of others, but
> multiple myths which are "true" in the sense of serving important social
> functions to their believers can still contradict factually: the world couldn't
> have been created 5000 years ago while having existed billions of years, unless
> you mean something unusual by "creation".  You can _say_ "the world was created
> 5000 years ago, but was not created 5000 years ago", but the words, put
> together, don't _mean_ anything.

don't _mean_ anything according to *reason*. But reason is not the
level the truest stories work on. And this isn't anything new, either;
the first two (creation) stories in the Bible contradict each other.
(The Kabbalistic story Neil adapted in #40 was an attempt to rectify
this, by the way-- which makes for a good story, but is really, in my
view, an unnecessary exercise.)

This is one of the things I love about Sandman. (In fact, this
philosophy was largely influenced by Sandman-- in case you couldn't
tell already.) For examples in the book itself, see Eve in #40: But
*this* is true: Adam had three wives. ... But some say Adam married
only once, and they speak truly too. Also see the Phantom Stranger
in _Books of Magic_ #1: History has may turns and forks, child.
Once, the earth was a lump of cooling plasma, hanging loosely in
space, devoid of atmosphere or life. This is a truth. But it is also
true that the earth was a concave dish, inhabited by those of the
old breed, the pre-dead. And, best of all, lots of quotes from #19
("A Midsummer Night's Dream"); one is Lady Jane Constantine's .sig,
another the Puck's comment: This is magnificent-- and it is true!
It never happened; yet it is still true. What magic art is this? 

(I know that this is philosophically unsound, because I'm basically
abandoning reason as a useful criterion, but also using it in my
argument. But it works for me. Anyway, Descartes did it too.)

For further elucidation, read _Tree and Leaf_ by J.R.R. Tolkien.
Jung is useful here, too. Or, if you want story and not argument,
read _Don Quixote_, especially Part 2!

___________________________________________________________________
-Si Rowe
email: rowjosp@yalevm.ycc.yale.edu

Suppose we *have* only dreamed, or made up, all those things-- trees
and grass and sun and moon and stars and Aslan himself. Suppose we
have. Then all I can say is that, in that case, the made-up things seem
a good deal more important than the real ones. Suppose this black pit
of a kingdom of yours *is* the only real world. Well, it strikes me as
a pretty poor one. And that's a funny thing, when you think about it.
We're just babies playing a game, if you're right. But four babies
playing a game can make a play-world which licks your real world hollow.
That's why I'm going to stand by the play world. I'm on Aslan's side
even if there isn't any Aslan to lead it. I'm going to live like a
Narnian even if ther isn't any Narnia.
                                   -Puddleglum the Marsh-wiggle
																																			_The Silver Chair_ by C.S. Lewis

I think you're very nice. I think twinkle's a nice word. So's viridian.
I met a lady once who had an imaginary fish.
                                   Delirium
                                    Sandman #44 by Neil Gaiman

P.S. I'm _very_ new on the Net. Feel free to flame me for the contents,
but hang loose on my Netiquette, please.
P.P.S. My .sig isn't *really* this long, I just added the first quote
(and this postscript) for this posting.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.comics.misc