HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: yjc@po.cwru.edu (Jerome Chan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Macintosh bigots
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Date: 13 Nov 1992 20:00:10 GMT
Organization: The Tofu Society of Singapore
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: b61539.student.cwru.edu

In article <Af0yrAm00iUxM3GQJj@andrew.cmu.edu>, Carl B Jabido
<cj00+@andrew.cmu.edu> wrote:

> Tell me if there is a standard Help menu and I'll stand corrected. 
> Otherwise, my argument stands.

Inside Macintosh Vol 6, pg 11-61 shows a picture of the help menu. It is
the ballon help icon on the menubar. Applications are supposed to add help
menu items to the bottom of the ballon help menu, after the show/hide
ballons menu item.

---
The Evil Tofu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: Cohena@mdc.com (Andy Cohen)
Subject: Newton tech (was The future of Apple)
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 92 20:46:48 GMT
Organization: MDGAC
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy

> Well, I was talking about the Newton with some freinds the other day, and
> it got me to thinking about Apples future. If the Newton can deliver what
> has been promised, and I see no real reason why it wouldn't (perhaps a
> year or so late though), then Apples marketing plans would drastically
> change. With Scully leading things, Apple is going to market towards getting
> a PDA in everyones pocket, not a Computer on 10% of the desktops.  

I do not believe that the PDA actually is Newton and neither should anyone
else.  
Newton is not a product, it is a technology which will spawn a product
line.  This product line's sales and profits will make all previous Apple
products look like.... just a drop in the bucket.......

Let me explain......
Ever hear someone complain about not being able to program their VCR? 
Let's face it VCR programming cannot be done quickly, easily or without a
manual....therefore end-user, consumer programming is a serious weakness. 
Lets add a few more examples..... telephones with speakers, one key
macro-numbers & answer machines...... microwave ovens.... step up/down
thermostats..... home alarm systems..... TVs....... and ANY other high-tech
consumer electronic device.....   There are LOTS!!!  Well.....  how many of
them are utilyzed to the full extent?  Do you really know how to program
your microwave to defrost the turkey then slowly cook it so that it is
ready for convection browning..... well, I guess you could read the
manual...but most, won't.  My point is that I believe that John
Sculley,....THE genius in marketing in this country today, has identified
an ocean of opportunity.  Build and sell the panacea for all end-user
consumer electronics programming and CLEAN UP!!  All they need to do is
perfect it, then burn it in silicon, then GIVE it to Matsushita and almost
all VCRs will be programmable using the Newton capabilities.....  Look at
those capabilities.....hand writing recognition (also voice recognition)
for the most transparent user input possible.... a superintelligent dB
engine which develops it's own structure on the fly..... learning
capabilities....a host of comm capabilities....

The PDA is only a low level trial run...a way to bootstrap and work out the
details.... then they will move on to....well...let's use some of Apple's
own examples:
             An Inventory wrist watch
             Architect's Sketchpad
             Classroom white board and hand-held PDAs
             Family message center (on the refrigerator)
             Spelling toys
             Fax/phone
             Portable map
 
and the note-taker....

None of these seem like the Sweet Pea PDA we've seen in MacLeak...

Let's face it...if they pull it off they will be in EVERY electronic device
just like Matsuhita is in every front-load VCR and sony is in every 3.5"
floppy drive...  oooo Apple is smart....
I'm buying more stock!

Andy Cohen  
           (YES!!!   I AM MACOWACO!!!)     
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: lsr@taligent.com (Larry Rosenstein)
Subject: Re: specifically comparing NeXT with Mac...
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Organization: Taligent, Inc.
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 19:04:34 GMT

In article <1992Nov5.120538.2602@cubetech.com>, andrew@cubetech.com wrote:
> 
> of Quickdraw or lack thereof compared to PostScript, but the fact that
> with DPS, you have the same imaging model for _all_ output.  Unless
> QDGX is a DPS clone, you are still where you used to be: you still

Or unless there's a 1-1 mapping from QDGX to Postscript.  The problem today
is that QuickDraw doesn't support a lot of things that Postscript does.  My
impression is that QDGX will support more (if not all) those things.

> have to write code to draw to the screen, and code to draw to the
> printer.  A unified imaging model is the biggest win with DPS.  It

In general, you don't have to write separate code, unless you need to use
direct Postscript code.  Presumably QDGX will reduce the need to write
directly in Postscript.

> messages.  The compiler rather than a run-time system determines which
> objects sends what messages to which objects.  This is really
> important, and I'll get to why in just a sec.

This is not strictly true.  In C++ the code that gets invoked when you make
a virtual function call is determined at runtime.  And in Apple's
implementation of C++ (actually using the Object Pascal runtime) you can
read objects from the disk.  That's how view hierarchies are built up.

Apple's also shown how you can implement shared libraries and add new C++
classes to running apps, although this is still in development.

> Interface Builder is different.  When you "draw" your interface, you
> are really creating the actual objects that will be instantiated when

Exactly what happens when you use Apple's ViewEdit.  The view objects are
saved in a resource and read in at runtime.  The main difference is that
Interface Builder has more support for defining interactions between
objects than ViewEdit does.

> limited to sending 32k, and I don't think they work over the network.

Apple events are network transparent.  Except for the 32k limit, you could
send MacApp objects in an Apple event as well.

> NeXT objects do most of the drudge work for you when writing an an
> app.  The AppKit provides classes - most notably Window and View -

The same is true of MacApp.  Although I think MacApp is narrower and deeper
(it has more support for basic things like Undo and documents) while NeXT's
kits are broader and shallower.  MacApp also takes the tedium out of
writing Mac applications.

> Event handling;  this is a joy on Macintosh (O.K. Mouse down.  Now,
> was it in a menu? no, was it in a window? etc ad nausium). not.  It's

You don't do that with MacApp.

Larry Rosenstein
Taligent, Inc.

lsr@taligent.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 13:02:52 -0500 
From: Carl B Jabido <cj00+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Macintosh bigots

Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.mac.advocacy: 13-Nov-92 Re: Macintosh
bigots by Daniel N. Johnson@vccnw0 
> >The Macintosh OS is more user-friendly.
> >- have you ever tried getting help on _anything_?
>  
> Turn on the balloon help and point at something. Yeah, I know,
> its a blasted noisy mode, but you imply that there is NO facility.
> Aint' so. It needs work tho. I feel Windows and OS/2 have better systems,
> tho quite differently oriented.
>  
> The Macintosh was desigend not to need them however. I generally do not,
> for what that's worth. If the help system is an critical component
> of your system, there's something wrong.

That's one thing I really HATE about Macs.  I've come to accept Macs as
a useable computer solution for some people.  (I was once a PC bigot :-)
 One thing I hate is that if Macs are supposed to be the "easy" computer
to use, how come there is no standard Help menu on menu bars?  Yes there
is balloon help, that's if you want an annoying thing popping up
wherever you move your mouse, only to tell you "That's a title bar,
click and hold to move the window"!  Big deal!!  There should be a
standard Help menu on the menu bar.  Last year, my roommate tried
finding out how to do some graphing in Maple and Mathematica and I
couldn't show him how to get help.  I just said, "Well in Windows or
OS/2, there's usually a Help menu"  but we couldn't find it on the Mac. 
Tell me if there is a standard Help menu and I'll stand corrected. 
Otherwise, my argument stands.

    Plus, OS/2's help facility is very nice.  There's the Master Help
Index, the Command Reference (for the Command Line Interface), Glossary,
Tutorial, Info on Rexx, and a Start Here thing which is like the
tutorial on Macs.  Basically, OS/2's stock help facility comes with
almost all the online documentation you need.  I taught myself Rexx
programming from the online docs.  And you can get online docs about the
system internals too, called the Redbooks, because the originals are
really red books.
I have yet to see this much online documentation on the Mac.  It's alot
nicer to read an online doc than opening a book because it's right there.

Carl
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: ewright@convex.com (Edward V. Wright)
Subject: Re: Software prices/availability
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 20:30:48 GMT
Organization: Engineering, CONVEX Computer Corp., Richardson, Tx., USA
Keywords: software prices next mac dos
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

In <1992Nov12.052706.19331@cuug.ab.ca> wilcoxt@cuug.ab.ca (Terrance Wilcox 260-8100) writes:

>>And Word 5.1 for the Mac doesn't take up anywhere NEAR the space Word
>>for Windows 2.0 demands for a full installation.. Following along with that
>>thought, everything I have and use on my Mac combined doesn't take up 
>>nearly as much space as a full NeXTstep 3.0 install.. :)

>But the full NeXTSTEP 3.0 CD probably cost less :). At least there's
>not too much bloat. (excuses, excuses, I know).

Yeah, why do you need all those silly applications anyway?  Once you 
have NeXTstep, you have everything.


Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: johnsd2@vccnw07.its.rpi.edu (Daniel Norman Johnson)
Subject: Re: the NeXT option (Was Re: 7.1 vs. OS/2 and Windows NT)
Reply-To: johnsd2@rpi.edu
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy, NY.
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 01:05:42 GMT

In article <TTN.92Nov5095242@mustarastas.cs.tut.fi>, ttn@cs.tut.fi (Tero Nieminen) writes:
|> In article <c!h1_p+@rpi.edu> johnsd2@jec313.its.rpi.edu (Daniel Norman Johnson) writes:
|> 
|>    In article <1992Nov4.044023.819@cubetech.com>, andrew@cubetech.com writes:
|> 
|>    |> the function call to cause a
|>    |> context switch and tell the thread scheduler to make a different
|>    |> thread runnable is called cthread_yield().
|> 
|>    Ah, but this will be usefull to me since by Eds (admittedly strange)
|>    definitions, this makes Unix a co-operatively multitasking system,
|>    since tasks (particularly X-windows tasks, I bet) can/probably do
|>    co-operate by calling sleep!
|> 
|> Notice that the routine name refers to threads (light weight processes).
|> Threads are cooperatively multitasked. Since each program has it's own
|> set of threads, it is assumed that the programmer knows what he is doing
|> and cooperates between the threads as he sees fit. It is completely
|> another thing to schedule processes, which still is preemptive.

Yes, I know.

I also realize that Unix is pre-emptive.

-- 
			- Dan Johnson
And God said "Jeeze, this is dull"... and it *WAS* dull. Genesis 0:0

These opinions have had all identifiying marks removed, and are untraceable.
You'll never know whose they are.
From: putzolu@toadflax.cs.ucdavis.edu (David Putzolu)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Where will NeXT be in 4 years?
Date: 12 Nov 92 17:27:40 GMT
Organization: Department of Computer Science, University of California, Davis

In article <1992Nov10.185745.21030@pellns.alleg.edu> smytonj@quig19.alleg.edu (James Smyton) writes:
>What amazes me is how defensive the NeXT owners  
>are.  One post about the fact that I personally don't like them that much  
>and I have about 20 people on my butt.  Maybe the reason is that they all  
>have sunk some dough in to a company with an uncertain future?

I can't disagree more. I've also posted some non-100% positive things
about NeXT and the responses I received seemed quite reasonable
to me.  OK, one person asked in email if I had
had my rabies shots, but still, the majority of NeXT users seemed to
be quite a nice bunch to me. Try posting something about an Amiga that
isn't all smiles and then you will know what it is to be truly
flamed.

>J S  (smytonj@alleg.edu)
"Anti-Viral Software? Nah, I'm careful enough"     ______-==-______
                                       ____-------=----------------=-------____
                 ________________  _ _-    --------________________--------
                (______________(_||_) _______ /
                   /_____/_____            _-
Ex-Capt David Putzolu          \__________-
U.S.S. Yamato
Senior, CS & Psych, U.C.Davis - putzolu@cs.ucdavis.edu - my opinion
From: Jim.Matthews@dartmouth.edu (Jim Matthews)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: specifically comparing NeXT with Mac...
Date: 9 Nov 92 15:05:13 GMT
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH

Stefano Pagiola writes
> Not quite.  A Q700 is really equivalent to a non-turbo color NeXT, so  
> that comparison is misleading.  The proper comparison is between a  
> Q950 and a Turbo color NeXT.

There is no perfect comparison.  A Q700 may feel as fast as a Turbo Color,  
due to its simpler imaging model and lower memory requirements.  It also  
has the potential to do 24-bit color, drive multiple monitors, do hardware  
JPEG, video input, FDDI, or be expanded to use multiple '040s for  
background rendering, etc.  For some users those things are worth much  
more than 8Mhz of clock speed.

> According to my edu price list, a Turbo Color NeXTstation 16/250 is  
> $4790; the 21" monitor is $2392:  Total $7182
> A Q950 8/230 is $5520; 21" monitor is $2630, total 8150
> So the NeXT still has a price advantage.  Notice also that you're  
> actually getting a better system (eg 16MB RAM vs 8).

You'll *need* that 8MB of RAM on a color NeXT; you might not need it on  
the Quadra.  And there's still the matter of the 950's NuBus slots, SIMM  
slots, drive bays, etc.  You could compare the 950 to the NeXT Turbo Cube  
and the Quadra would win big on price; and the Quadra's slots are much  
more useful than the Cube's.

NeXT made a big splash by bringing out the NeXTstations at agressive  
prices, long before Apple had an '040 box.  But now Apple has '040 Macs  
running at the same clock speed as the fastest NeXTs, and their prices  
have dropped below NeXT's.  So NeXT isn't selling to bargain-hunters any  
more -- they're selling to people who are convinced that they need  
NeXTSTEP.  It will be very interesting to see how many of those people  
come out of the wordwork once it becomes possible to run NeXTSTEP on  
cheap, non-NeXT hardware....

Jim Matthews
Dartmouth Software Development
From: spagiola@frinext.stanford.edu (Stefano Pagiola)
Subject: Re: specifically comparing NeXT with Mac...
Reply-To: spagiola@frinext.stanford.edu
Organization: DSO, Stanford University
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 92 23:04:57 GMT

James Smyton writes
> >  NeXT's selling point now is software.
> From what I have seen(note this qualification), the Mac has
> a much larger software selection compared to NeXTs.  How is
> NeXTs selling point justified by software in leiu of this
> difference?

I believe the poster was pointing to the very high quality of the  
NeXT OS and development environment.
--
-
Stefano Pagiola
Food Research Institute, Stanford University
spagiola@frinext.stanford.edu (NeXTMail encouraged)
spagiola@FRI-nxt-Pagiola.stanford.edu (NeXTMail encouraged)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: andrew@cubetech.com
Subject: Re: specifically comparing NeXT with Mac...
Organization: Cube Technologies, Inc.
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 03:29:08 GMT

In article <s0n1ss+@rpi.edu> johnsd2@jec314.its.rpi.edu.its1 writes:
>>  Additionally, if it's not written by Adobe, then
>>there is no guarantee that you will get the same thing on the printer
>>without a lot of tweaking around (who wants to do that).
>
>Interesting assertion. Justify it, please. I don't believe you. :)

Apple's routines that convert the vector data to bitmap data will not
be the same as Adobe's, so there is no guarantee that PS output after
you have 'translated' your QDGX code will be identical to the output
that the QDGX RIP actually produces.

>Apple Events require a fair bit of code, but not a huge amount. The
>OS deals with the details for you. What is a "DO"? The context was nuked,
>and I dont recognise the acronym.

DO's are Distributed Objects.  No extra code.


andrew
-- 
andrew@cubetech.com     | "Carpe Nocturn - I get more work done after
Andrew Loewenstern      |  2 a.m. than most people do all day."
Cube Technologies, Inc. |                          - Simson Garfinkel
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: UC525655@mizzou1.missouri.edu (Mark Eaton)
Subject: Re: Sculley considered for Clinton's Sec. of Commerce
Organization: University of Missouri
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 92 23:33:25 CST

In article <1992Nov12.014112.13060@msc.cornell.edu>
maynard@groo.msc.cornell.edu (Maynard J. Handley) writes:
 
>
>
>>Nope, Perot owns 13% of NeXT. Still a smart man.
>>
>>Clinton doesn't want Sculley (maybe Coke does though).
>>Clinton wants the head of HP.
>>
>>Terry Wilcox
>>
>
>Right, the guy who endorsed Bush. I'll believe that when I see him
>appointed, no earlier.
>
Hmmmm. I think Clinton listed Apple as one of the companies that endorsed him.
No, Im pretty sure...
 
>Maynard Handley
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mark Eaton                    | Opinions? We're not allowed to have
UC525655@MIZZOU1.MISSOURI.EDU | opinions at Mizzou... get back to me
                              | in 2 years when I graduate... ;)
From: johnsd2@jec322.its.rpi.edu (Daniel Norman Johnson)
Subject: Re: Macintosh advocacy (really!)
Reply-To: johnsd2@rpi.edu
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy, NY.
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 05:58:07 GMT

In article <1992Nov5.033606.4824@leland.Stanford.EDU>, spagiola@frinext.stanford.edu (Stefano Pagiola) writes:
|> Bill Coleman writes
|> >> 8. The Amiga's autosizing scroll bars are much nicer and
|> >> more intuitive to use than the Mac's thumbnail scroll bars.
|> >> I can never tell how much of the document I am viewing or
|> >> exactly where in the document I'm at with the Mac scroll bars.
|> > 
|> > Apple studied the use of proportional scroll bars. They
|> > found that they were NOT intuitive. They confused users.
|> > They did this through expensive user testing, not some survey
|> > of technogeeks.
|> > 
|> 
|> Its good of Apple to tell me what's intuitive to me.  For a while  
|> there I was deluding myself that the proportional scroll bars on my  
|> NeXT were very intuitive.  I stand corrected.
|> 

:/ Now now, apple isn't talking about YOU, nor were they talking
about NeXT scrollbars. The computer they were designing for was in
black and white, and according to _Tog_on_Interface_ the proportional
scrolls they tried looked like white worms. And they confused _new_users_.

Thus, Apple decided to convey less info with the scrollbars and
got rid of the proportionality. Strangely, they put it back for
teh Apple IIgs. :/

|> > > 5. SW doesn't break every time the OS gets upgraded. 
|> > 
|> > Same on the Mac. My software didn't break when the OS got
|> > upgraded. Indeed, the SECOND version of Smartcom II that
|> > ever shipped (summer of '85) works under System 7.
|> > 
|> 
|> On my NeXT, not only does (most*) softare not break after an oS  
|> upgrade, most of the software gets upgraded right along with the OS,  
|> thanks to object orientation and shared libraries.

This happens on the Mac too, ya know, perhaps not to the same
extent (hey, I dont know how much happens on the NeXT); You'll
note that in System 7 all those scrollbars magically turned
colors. :) And so on. Its just the shared libraries trick.

|> (* be honest now - _nothing_ broke going to Sys 7?)

Actually, for me very little broke. I cant remember what clearly-
I think my old ResEdit 1.2 died..... Not much tho.

-- 
			- Dan Johnson
And God said "Jeeze, this is dull"... and it *WAS* dull. Genesis 0:0

These opinions have had all identifiying marks removed, and are untraceable.
You'll never know whose they are.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXT OS, TOO SLOW TO $#@#$, etc.
From: feijai@endor.byu.edu (Sean Luke)
Date: 13 Nov 92 15:42:42 -0700
Reply-To: sean@digaudio.byu.edu
Distribution: na

In article <ewright.721599023@convex.convex.com>  writes:
>>>>How much is MacRenderman going for these days? :-)
>>>
>>>Just as much as Steve Jobs decides it goes for.  Since Jobs owns
>>>both companies, it's hardly fair to point to Pixar's prices as proof
>>>as NeXT's generosity.
>
>>Nonetheless, you get what you pay for.
>
>Actually, Renderman is now cheaper than I thought.  You can
>get MacRenderman and Showplace bundled on CD-ROM (with a lot
>of examples are other stuff from Pixar) for $266, which is
>pretty reasonable.
>
>So I guess since "you get what you pay for," you must believe
>that Renderman isn't really worth very much?


Don't be coy.  Although the phrase wasn't best chosen, you know exactly  
what I meant.

--

Sean Luke
Brigham Young University                   MILK:  It Comes From Cows
sean@digaudio.byu.edu  
NeXTmail and nifty Mac stuff welcome
From: philip@utstat.uucp (Philip McDunnough)
Subject: Re: EGGPLANT, IMPLANT, EMPATH, BLAZEPLANT...
Organization: University of Toronto, Dept. of Statistics
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 19:05:15 GMT

In article <1992Nov12.133846.14559@gn.ecn.purdue.edu> jess@gn.ecn.purdue.edu (Jess M Holle) writes:
>Also, does this A3000/Emplant system have:
>  *built-in Ethernet
>  *accelerated 24-bit color w/ the addition of VRAM SIMMs
>  *three NuBUS 90 slots
>  *built-in sound input

The built in Ethernet needs a special connector which costs almost as much as
an Amiga's Ethernet card. ZorroIII competes favourably with NuBus. Sound on
the Amiga is far better than on the Mac. The Amiga multitasks. In many ways
the Amiga is far better (especially the A4000), and if Jim Drew gets the bugs
out of the Emplant software then one would be hard pressed to not consider
the combination.
 
The Quadra is nice. It's really meant for A/UX which has never been accepted.
Might help if Apple started using DMA properly.

Philip McDunnough
philip@utstat.toronto.edu
Xref: sparky comp.sys.mac.advocacy:2541 comp.sys.amiga.advocacy:29019
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: EGGPLANT, IMPLANT, EMPATH, BLAZEPLANT...
From: martin@TIGGER.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU (Amiga 4000/040 is Coming via UPS!! YEEEHA!!)
Date: 13 Nov 92 11:15:07 -0600
Reply-To: martin@TIGGER.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU
Organization: St. Cloud State University, St. Cloud, MN

In article <torrie.721468352@Xenon.Stanford.EDU>, torrie@cs.stanford.edu (Evan Torrie) writes:
>dtiberio@csws20.ic.sunysb.edu (David Tiberio) writes:
>
>>	NONE OF THE ABOVE.
>>	EMPLANT = DEATH OF HIGH PRICED MACINTOSH.
>>	FULL MACINTOSH QUADRA SYSTEMS FOR UNDER $4,000.
>
>  Hmmm.  Look at my price list
>
>M5921LL/A Macintosh Quadra 700 4MB RAM             $3227.00
>
>Been there, done that.
>
AHHHH...but does that come w/ a free amiga??   didn't think so... :)


>-- 
>-----------------------------------------------

Jim
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
   It is not I who am CrAzY, it is I who am MAD!!!!! -Ren (SpaCe MaDDneSs)
Living w/o a computer 'till the 4000 comes. Sigh... X-ASOCC (CBM Blew that one)
           Jim Martin   MATRIX -- If it's made, we sell it. Almost.
A4000 Coming SOON!!, Real soon.                 MARTIN@TIGGER.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy