From: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay)
Subject: Re: Israel's peace talks with Syria
Reply-To: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au
Organization: Australian National University
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 05:22:27 GMT

In article Er7@news.cso.uiuc.edu, eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf) writes:
>bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay) writes:
>
>>In article 9wB@news.cso.uiuc.edu, eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf) writes:
>>>Read up on Deir Yassin - it isn't as clear cut of a case of massacre as you
>>>think - there are several good accounts which contradict your version of the
>>>story. 
>
>>T.p.m's resident Kachist, David Makowsky, just announced a party.
>>I hope you realise that the best evidence of a massacre comes from 
>>Haganah sources.  In order to discount it, you need to believe in some
>>fiendish conspiracy involving the Haganah, the Brits and the Red Cross.
>
>Not neccesarily a conspiracy - there is no doubt that it was in the Haganah's
>interest to discredit the Irgun and Lehi.  I've seen several accounts and all
>of them admit to the fact that there were Arab irregulars stationed in the 
>village. 

Then you won't mind citing them for us.  While you are at it, you might
like to look at the accounts by Irgun participants reported in 
Kurzman: Genesis 1948, Bell: Terror out of Zion and Reid Banks: Torn Country 
and ponder why these accounts (all of which deny an organised massacre) do 
NOT claim there were forces in DY except the villagers (except for one 
"man in the uniform of an Iraqi officer" mentioned in the third account).

You might also like to explain the following extracts from the Irgun's
own archives (Jabotinsky Archives, Tel Aviv) deposited in the 1950s by
Irgun members who were at Deir Yassin:

   "Apart from the military discussion, the Lehi put forward a proposal
   to liquidate the residents of the village after the conquest, in order
   to show the Arabs what happens when the IZL [Irgun -bdm] and the Lehi
   set out together on an operation, and for another main reason --- it
   would cause a great uproar throughout the land and would be an
   important turning-point in the course of the battles."
   [Yehuda Lapidot, senior Irgun officer, reporting on the Irgun-Lehi
   planning meeting for the attack on Deir Yassin in April 1947.]
 
   "When it comes to prisoners, women, old people and children, there
   were differences of opinion, but the majority was for the liquidation
   of all the men in the village and any other force that opposed us,
   whether it be old people, women or children."
   [Benzion Cohen, the Irgun commander of the attack.]

  "We had prisoners, and before the retreat we decided to liquidate them.
   We also liquidated the wounded, as anyway we could not give them first 
   aid.  In one place, about eighty Arab prisoners were killed after some
   of them had opened fire and killed one of the people who came to give
   them first aid.  Arabs who dressed up as Arab women were also found,
   and so they started to shoot the women also who did not hurry to the
   area where the prisoners were concentrated."
   [Yehoshua Gorodentchik, Irgun officer.]

Source: Eric Silver, Begin - A Biography, Weiden and Nicolson, ca 1984.
(Also called "Begin, the Haunted Prophet".)   He also interviewed
Lapidot.  The Hebrew text of the Irgun testimony can (Silver says)
be found in Koteret Rashit, 19 Jan 1983.

>           Even if civilians were killed, it is very irresponsible to label
>this as a massacre.  There is a big difference between soldiers coming in 
>with the express intent of murdering innocent people and civilians being
>injured and killed as a result of actual fighting.

Exactly, which is why "massacre" is an apt description.

>>> Once again, have you ever heard of Gush Etzion?  Sorry, the arguments
>>>go both ways here.
>
>>Arab irregular forces massacred Jewish civilians and disarmed soldiers
>>at Gush Etzion.  Allowing for the overdramatisation which one would normally
>>expect, the accounts in good history books are basically correct.  The
>>only serious misconception is the role of the Arab Legion (Jordanian 
>>force commanded by British officers).  I have seen accounts claiming that
>>the Arab Legion conducted the massacre.  However, the few Jewish survivors
>>say that they owe their lives to the Arab Legion arriving and stopping it.
>
>My only point is that uniquely castigating the Jews because of Deir Yassin
>is ignoring the flip side of the story.  If you argue Deir Yassin, you must
>also admit to Gush Etzion.  The argument cuts both ways.  
>
>>>Ed Shnekendorf.

Brendan.