From: creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Steve Creps)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re:      Purgatory: Justice or Works?
Date: 28 Sep 92 19:14:15 GMT
Organization: Indiana University

In article <CHRISTIA%92092506424505@ASUACAD.BITNET> Tom Brewer <NOTTMB@LSUVM.BITNET> writes:

[ I'm moving this paragraph from the end of the message to here. --SAC ]

>I hope you can see I reworded my questions from the previous post. But I still
>see all this as a gospel of works. According to the above, Jesus does nothing.

   That's just not true.  In each case Jesus is doing something
through someone or something else.

>OK, just a few questions taken from "Saint John Neumann's Catechism."
>
>Q.  Who are they who go to Pugatory?
>A.  They who die in the Grace of God, but who have not yet satisfied God
>    for venial sins or for temporal punishments.

   The Grace of God comes from/through Christ.  "Those who die in the
Grace of God" is another phrase for those who have been forgiven by
God for their sins.  Do not confuse God's forgiveness with His
satisfaction.  The former is related to His mercy; the latter is
related to His justice.

>Q.  How long do the souls remain in Purgatory?
>A.  Till they have satisfied God's justice.

   Purgatory does not do anything for our gaining salvation.  Again,
do not confuse God's forgiveness/mercy with His satisfaction/justice.

>Q.  Who has the power to forgive sins?
>A.  Only the Pope, the bishops, and the priests of the Roman Catholic
>    Church.

   This question could perhaps have been phrased less ambiguously, but
what is meant is that only the Pope, the bishops, and priests have the
authority from God to forgive sins.  It goes without saying that God
is who is doing the forgiving, as their authority to forgive sins
comes from God.

>Q.  How are sins forgiven?
>A.  Chiefly through the sacraments of baptism and penance.

   These are Sacraments given us by Christ, therefore it is Christ who
is doing the forgiving.

>Now I'm curious about the DE FIDE doctrine on Purgatory. According to
>Dr. Ott three councils wrote about the "possibility of suffrages." The
>doctrine goes like this:
>   "The living faithful can come to the assistance of the Souls in
>    Purgatory by their intercessions (suffrages)."
>
>Who are the "living faithful"?(Keep in mind the above says only the Pope
>and company can forgive sins.)

   Yes, prayers for the Souls in Purgatory can help them.  The "living
faithful" are just that- "living" in that they are still living on
Earth, and "faithful" in that they are members of the Church.  Again,
this has nothing to do with forgiveness, since nobody can get into
Purgatory without having been already forgiven.  Souls go through
Purgatory in order to "make restitution," etc..

>Outside of Christ, how can any man "satisfy" God's justice?
>
>Did Christ, according to Catholic doctrine, die for all the sins of all men,
>or only most of the sins of all men? If He died for all the sins, then how
>could there be "venial" sins still not forgiven?

   Christ died for all our sins.  Nobody said there were venial sins
"not forgiven."  There may be venial sins for which sufficient penance
has not yet been done, but penance comes only _after_ forgiveness.
Penance does _not_ bring about forgiveness.

   Again, Purgatory has absolutely nothing to do with forgiveness.  As
I have said many times, one must be already forgiven by God just to
get into Purgatory in the first place.  The main objections I see to
Purgatory show a lack of understanding of what the doctrine really
says.

-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
Steve Creps, Indiana University
creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU