HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: alt.pagan,talk.religion.misc
Subject: The Christian Bible(s)
From: drake+@cs.cmu.edu (Drake)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 02:10:38 GMT
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon

SL500000@brownvm.brown.edu (Robert Mathiesen) writes:

>Neither.  There are five main divisions of the Christian tradition which
>have survived to the present day, of which Protestant and Catholic are only
>two.  The other three are (1) the Greek, Slavic and Georgian Orthodox
>Churches, (2) the Armenian Apostolic Church, the Syrian Orthodox Church,
>the Coptic Church, the Ethiopic Church, etc., and (3) the Syriac Church of
>the East.  They differ noticeably from one another in three respects that
>bear on our incipient discussion.

I am aware of both the Orthodox (Greek/Russian/etc) and the monophysite
churches, but the third group I am uncertain of.  Could you provide a
brief history?

>First, their canons of scripture (= the tables of contents of their Bibles)
>differ from one another, even in the New Testament, and do so in very strik-
>ing ways.

The Orthodox canon is identical to the Roman and Protestant, I understand.
Is this mistaken?  The monophysite churches, being of the 5th century,
I would expect to have essentially the same canon, and I am again uncertain
as to the third group you mention.  Could you provide an outline of the
differences you see?

>Second, the texts of individual books and parts of books may differ from
>one another in striking ways.

Examples, please?

>Third, their choice of which "version" (that is, in which language) counts
>as authoritative for one or another book differs in striking ways.

Again, examples? (Are you referring to cases such as whether the Hebrew or
Vulgate is authoritative?)

>All this is almost completely overlooked in run-of-the-mill Protestant and
>Catholic seminary training.  If you take up my challenge, we shall largely
>be working from primary sources: early manuscripts in various languages, and
>the canon law of the various branches of the Christian tradition.

"Challenge?"  Very confrontational, are we not?  ;-)  Seriously, it doesn't
matter to me that much who's "right"; however, I am always interested in 
learning more about the history of the Christian faiths.  

>Christian tradition.  It is a matter of conscience not to let historically
>false statements go unchallenged when I am in a position to refute them.

I appreciate that.  Please refute my lack of knowledge. <g>



-- 
Love and Laughter,             | NOTE: Private mail must go explicitly
Xeper and Remanifest,          | to drake@seismo.soar.cs.cmu.edu
                       DRAKE   | or it'll bounce back to you...
Newsgroups: alt.pagan,talk.religion.misc,alt.atheism,alt.slack
From: joann@unixhub.SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Jo Ann Malina)
Subject: Re: God's math accuracy was The meaning of "pagan"
Organization: Stanford Linear Accelerator Center
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1993 06:01:09 GMT

In article <C0LzMu.Ju3@rice.edu> swaim@owlnet.rice.edu (Michael Parks Swaim) writes:
>In article <fXKMWZi@quack.sac.ca.us> pharvey@quack.sac.ca.us (Paul Harvey) writes:
>>In article <1993Jan8.192559.29023@radian.uucp> 
>>markbr%radian@natinst.com (markbr) writes:
>>>Aw, c'mon. 3 is perfectly good enough for a scientific approximation. The
>>>order of magnitude is even right!
>>
>>Exactly! As they say, one digit accuracy is close enough for God!
>  OK. I'll bite. How many digits of accuracy would make you happy?

All of them, of course. Ought to be child's play for God, right?
(The number under discussion is pi, in case you've lost the thread.)

*) *) *) *) *) *) *) *) *) *) *)!(* (* (* (* (* (* (* (* (* (* (* (* (*
Jo Ann Malina, Stanford Linear Accelerator Center
joann@unixhub.slac.stanford.edu  -or-  415/926-2846
Neither Stanford nor the DOE would be caught dead with these opinions.
Nor do they consult me when formulating theirs.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
It ain't what they call you, it's what you answer to.     -Bill Clinton
From: hz225wu@unidui.uni-duisburg.de (Micaela Pantke)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: The really newest song from Stayka!
Followup-To: alt.pagan
Date: 5 Jan 1993 11:14:15 +0100
Organization: University of Duisburg
Reply-To: hz225wu@unidui.UUCP (Micaela "Stayka" Pantke)
NNTP-Posting-Host: unidui.uni-duisburg.de

Hi there - Stayka is here!

Many, many thanks to you, A.Lizard, for going into this trouble
finding me a Mailbox! I will try to contact them in the next time
[at the moment I'm quite busy producing an esoteric zine (hardcopy
or floppy disk, although then you would miss lots of drawings) with a 
friend of mine (unfortunately most of it is in German...), so that my
time is limited (I'm also studying + working on a computer program...)]
Furthermore I'll try to contact my sysop about the email, for lately we 
changed the companies through which we have Internet access. I wonder 
if there's a change in the costs as well?! I'll let you hear soon!

But now - so that I don't use the bandwidth with only a small cause... 
Here is my newest song - I just wrote it five minutes or so ago. 
(In my non-standard calculus class, to be precise.  But shhhh! BTW, I 
had to return 6 minutes ago, well, so be it, I'll be late again...) 

It's dedicated to you all on alt.pagan.  Unfortunately it's a little 
bit late for THIS winter solstice - but as the Goddess wills it we'll 
have another one this year... 

----------------------------- CUT HERE -------------------------------

SOLSTICE TIME
-----------------
by Stayka deyAvemta
(c) 1993/01/05


The world out there is dark and quiet
Everything sleeps, covered with white
But there's a power in the air
A warming glow from everywhere

The pagans all over the world
Shall come together, spread the word
To join this joyful ceremony
No matter who you are, blessed be

Let us praise the return of the light
Let us sing in the longest of nights
Solstice time, when the magic flows
Solstice time, for the ones who know
 
Let us drink our cups of wine
Close the circle an feel fine
Let us sing, welcome the light
Which comes after EVERY night

It's solstice time, my candle burns
Let's rejoice, my friends, the sun returns
All life on Earth will be reborn
When the sun passes the tropic of capricorn

Let us praise the return of the light
Let us sing in the longest of nights
Solstice time, when the magic flows
Solstice time, for the ones who know

----------------------------- CUT HERE -------------------------------

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Micaela "Stayka" Pantke  | Remember the time, 
Westhoffstrasse 111      | Remember the space, 
W-4200 Oberhausen 11     | Remember the place, 
Germany                  | The time when we were in Atlantis...
----------------------------------------------------------------------

 
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: czarbock@cltr.uq.oz.au (Carol Zarbock)
Subject: Re: Amazons and the Labrys - was: Re: Question/symbol
Organization: Centre for Language Teaching and Research, Uni of Queensland, AUSTRALIA.
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1993 11:33:50 GMT

And, I ususally get asked if my pentacle is a star of David!
From: mimir@hardy.u.washington.edu (Al Billings)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Documented Evidence
Date: 5 Jan 93 02:10:54 GMT
Organization: The Friends of Loki Society
NNTP-Posting-Host: hardy.u.washington.edu

In article <1348@abb-sc.abb-sc.COM> ksm@abb-sc.abb-sc.com (Ashley) writes:
>
>	I cannot say much more than this but please trust me, it *does* exist, 
>it *is* a religion and there *are* people passing it down to their children in 
>modern times. Yes, it did survive, no it's not Wicca but there are some 
>similarities. Still, it is there and they worship their deities whether anyone 
>believes they exist or not.

 If I had a penny for every time someone said "Trust me. I've seen the
evidence but I can't show you it" I would be rich. No evidence, no belief.

 People can make up stories all they want but don't expect people to trust
any one person's word. 20 years ago it was "My grandmother handed it down
to me, really!" and now it is "Trust me, they exist and but I can't show
the evidence."

Wassail,
Grendel Grettisson
From: cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
Subject: Re: Amazons and the Labrys - was: Re: Question/symbol
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: 8 Jan 93 22:47:01 GMT

In article <4164@master.CNA.TEK.COM> richa@grizzly.CNA.TEK.COM (Grizzly Amber) writes:

[deleted]

>Now, my question to you folks is this: By me wearing this symbol,
>will the world at large think I am part of what you have been discussing
>rather than accepting my own interpretations?
>
>Griz

Well, if *I* saw you, I'd assume that you were lesbian if you are a
woman, and something "else" if you were a man.  This goes against what
*I* would wear one for, though, and I'd like to get a labrys.  I am
attempting to excavate for myself a mediterranean/Minoan spirituality
and apply it to modern life.  The labrys is a Minoan symbol and I would
wear it to signify that.

On someone else, though . . . ?  I'd assume that a woman was lesbian if
she were wearing one -- might be wrong, but that's the first thing that
would come to mind.

Blessings,
Janis 

Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: markbr%radian@natinst.com (markbr)
Subject: Re: Space, the final frontier
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 19:24:41 GMT
Organization: n.o.y.b

In article <1993Jan1.214231.14865@nntpd.lkg.dec.com> boylan@sltg04.ljo.dec.com (Steve Boylan) writes:
>In a previous article, whose attribution I've lost (I hate using this
>news reader), A.Lizard writes:
>
>>If these alleged rocket scientists have NUMBERS that demostrate that scaling
>>railguns up to the 1 metric ton range with output velocities in the 5
>>mi/second range are impossible, if they can demonstrate that scaling laser
>>technology up to the power ranges (10E9 joule) range for laser catapults, or
>>they can prove that beamed power in the GWatt range is impossible, I'm
>>prepared to listen.
>
>Well, let me see . . .  Grabbing an envelope out of the trash, 5 mi/sec.
>works out to 8,046 meters/sec.  Can we be friends here, and round that
>off to 8 km/sec.?  At 1 g, you'd need to accelerate for 821 seconds
<slow railgun velocity logic deleted>
>Let's be a bit more realistic.  You'd probably want to hit something
>like 10 g for cargo.  That means you can hit your target speed in
>82 seconds (a minute and a half).  The length of your railgun would
>only have to be 658,952 meters, or about 400 miles.

Actually, for a lot of cargo, you could probably go to 15-20 gees.
That actually wouldn't make a railgun unreasonable, esp if you ran it
up a mountain.
>
>Of course, people probably wouldn't feel too happy about being
>accelerated at 10 g, even for so short a time as 82 seconds.  And
>would anybody out there feel like computing the drag from the
>atmosphere on a capsule with a 9-foot diameter (the diameter of
>the Apollo command module)?  How about the drag at sea level,
>10,000 feet, and 29,864 feet (the current best guess at the
>height of Mt. Everest)?  And just how much heat would you have to
>get rid of with that much drag?  (A quaint fact that seems mildly
>relevant to the discussion . . . the limit on the speed of the
>Concorde is the temperature of the nose of the plane.  At
>supersonic speeds, the temperature gauge is what the pilot
>monitors, not the airspeed.)
>
With the velocities I just mentioned, without caclulating it, I
suspect you're talking about a 40-or-so mile gun. One could even partially
evacuate such a tunnel, if it's only 3m or so across (vide the SSC). On
the other hand, for more delicate cargo (like passengers), you could go for,
say, a third of that final veloicity, and use the railgun *INSTEAD* of those
damn solid-fuel boosters. That would certainly cut down *drastically* on
the cost-to-orbit.

On a related subject, I suspect there's a good chance several of you may have
missed a post I made late last month; certainly, I've seen neither reference
nor reaction to it. I will, therefore, restate it.

What *is* the purpose of the argument? Is it:
 	a) to convince the doubters that space is the answer to everything?
		(and I *still* haven't seen anyone claim this); or
	b) to convince some of us that have wanted space our entire lives
		to completely forget our dreams, that it's all fulla shit,
		and to wait until everything down here is perfect 
		(i.e., forever)?

Well?

	mark
From: ksm@abb-sc.abb-sc.com (Ashley)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Documented Evidence
Date: 5 Jan 93 00:01:12 GMT
Organization: Kaos Laboratories


In article <C0AzAn.MD5@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe) writes...

(clip)

>I am responding to people's claims that there has been a structured initiatory
>religion kept hidden during the Burning Times.  What my two Fam-Trad friends
>have inherited is neither initiatory, or a religion.  Neither one is ritual
>based.  If I can find anything that isn't obviously Gardnerian that is a
>religion, I will be thrilled.  Does this still seem to be a circle?
> 



	I cannot say much more than this but please trust me, it *does* exist, 
it *is* a religion and there *are* people passing it down to their children in 
modern times. Yes, it did survive, no it's not Wicca but there are some 
similarities. Still, it is there and they worship their deities whether anyone 
believes they exist or not.


               -------------------------------------------------

	This whole argument is starting to sound silly. Why not practice just 
what you want and borrow where you will? What is the fixation I see so often 
for the "oldest possible sourse"? If you really want to go with something old, 
go look at cave drawings untill you get the idea, then put on a deerskin and 
dance around a fire untill you pass out to thank the Gods for the evening 
meal?!?! 
	Sorry, couldn't pass that one up. ;-)

	Ultimately, the people who have the family passed religious 
traditions will continue with or without the pagan community as they are 
outside it and seldom interact with us. Why worry about them? They are there 
and we are here and what each of us do is just as valid and just as real to us.


--
	"know and love thyself and thereby the world around you"

					- Ashley
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 03:41:17 CST
From: David James Alexander Hanley <U16244@uicvm.uic.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Religious Taxation
 <1993Jan9.165120.10788@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu>

In article <1993Jan9.165120.10788@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu>, pciszek@nyx.cs.du.edu
(Paul Ciszek) says:
>Could someone please explain the difference between "churches" and "non-
>profit organizations" in tax laws?  Also, am I correct in assuming that a
>profitable business owned by a church (i.e., PepsiCo and the LDS) must pay
>its taxes as a business, before turning the profit over to the church?

  Religious organizations are exempt from property taxes on the
church itself by law.  This is usually extended to cover all
property.  Often, profitable business are NOT taxed although they ought
to be under law.  In fact, I remember hearing of a scam where a person
gives their business to the church, works there as an employee,
and keeps x% of the profit.  The thing is, the business is much more
profitable because they are paying much less tax.  I don't know how
widespread this is.  Probably not much.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty.
He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for
protection to his own" - Thomas Jefferson, 1814

SEND E-MAIL TO : hanley1@earth.eecs.uic.edu
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson)
Subject: Re: Documented Evidence
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 02:17:11 GMT

lib1p@elroy.uh.edu (Tammy Stark Blandino) writes:
: 
: The way it seems to be comming out is that only Gardenarian Wicca is 
: "Witchcraft" and only it is a witch religion.  Fam Trads are not because of
: the fact that they are not Gardenerian, but only folk magic.  Therefore
: you have no documented evidence of Wicca existing before Gardener.
: 
: Does everyone else see the circle that I do?

That was not the intended impression. Witchcraft is a religion. Folk magic
is not. What we want is documentation of a folk religion (similar to
Witchcraft) prior to the introduction by Gerald Gardener - in the US. In
other words, a religious family tradition - by those who claim one. That
is what is missing. There is plenty of evidence of various folk magic or
herbalism existing.

Does that help?

Bill
From: drake+@cs.cmu.edu (Drake)
Subject: Re: The meaning of "pagan"
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 10:36:29 GMT

billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson) writes:

>Why not. It is just as valid, if not more so, than your insistance that
>everyone interprets what they read the same way that you do. 

No...there may be people who don't interpret the letters "n," "o," "m," "a,"
and "n," in that sequence with a space after the third letter to be the word
"no" followed by the word "man," and there may be some who don't interpret
that to be the phrase "no man."  If you can get that phrase, and the ones
before and after it, it's not open to interpretation on this point.

>: to be the one and only "true" religion.  Can you provide any Scripture - as
>: oppossed to human interpreter's thoughts - to deny this?
>
>Only if you read something into Scripture that is not there. 

Exactly my point.

>Show me one place
>that says that Christianity is the "only true" religion. Show me one place 
>where it says that Jesus is the one and only path to salvation/enlightenment.

There's the one that started this.  Jesus: "No man comes to the Father except
through me."  Beyond this, why would Jesus tell his disciples to go out and
preach the Word if there were other ways to God?

Then there's Romans 3:23-24: "For all alike have sinned, and are deprived of
the divine splendor, and all are justified by God's free grace alone, through
his act of liberation in the person of Christ Jesus...[God] justifies any
man who puts his faith in Jesus."  Or: "Through [Jesus Christ] God chose to
reconcile the whole universe to himself...to reconcile all things, whether
on earth or in heaven, through him alone." - Colossians 1:20.
                               ^^^^^^^^^  
Seems fairly self-evident.--------|
-- 
Love and Laughter,             | NOTE: Private mail must go explicitly
Xeper and Remanifest,          | to drake@seismo.soar.cs.cmu.edu
                       DRAKE   | or it'll bounce back to you...
From: darsie@eecs.ucdavis.edu (Richard Darsie)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Need help with these pagan lyrics
Date: 8 Jan 93 17:08:33 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: University of California, Davis

I have a wonderful album by two pagan women, Ruth Barrett & Cynthia Smith,
called "Music of the Rolling World". It's fairly old, on the Kicking Mule
label, and I've been trying to learn the title cut, "The Rolling World".
The sound quality is not great, the recording engineers were not
experts, so it's hard to make some of them out. So here's what I've got
so far, and if anyone can fill in the holes I'd *really* appreciate it.

The Rolling World
by Ruth Barrett & Cynthia Smith

The Mother gives birth on night's longest hour
With the frost aglow on the green.
The Child of Light is reborn as the sun
To renew us on our journey unseen.
Oh, life in the earth begins to unfold
As the waxing light is seen.
Each seedling is ?????? into its own self
To inspire us to be truly free.

Chorus:  And like the rolling world
         The wheel of life is a-turning.
         We weave the circle dance
         Upon this rolling world of learning.

The Maiden returns in blossom so ??????
To embrace her mothering earth
And like children we play in the sweetness of day
And rejoice in life's return to the earth.
The Maypole is crowned with ribbons so bright
And lovers meet in desire.
Through woodlands and meadows we laugh in the sun
And the dance of life grows wild in the fire.

Cho.

The oak branch is placed in the bonfire's blaze
Their embrace dissolves into one.
Light triumphs this day, begins to decay
......

And here's where I lose it, cause my record has a **scratch** on it!
(One good argument for CDs). 

Please help!! I really want to learn this song!

Blessings,
Richard (Tuneweaver)
From: troyce@pro-haven.cts.com (Troyce Wilson)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Why Black Hilt?
Date: 10 Jan 1993 08:26:37 -0600
Organization: ProLine [pro-haven] - Pariahs' Haven BBS, 409/846-3177, 9600-300
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

The color requirement comes from Ceremonial Magick.  In the Key of Solomon,
there are instructions for making and using the Black hilted and White
hilted knives (usually called Athames and Bolines now).  Ceremonial
magicians usually place a lot of importance on color symbolism.  If you are
practicing Wicca or some other Neopagan religion, I don't think the color
matters as much.  I have known people who used athames with bone or antler
handles, and they worked just as well.  My own athame, while black hilted,
does not have anything engraved on the hilt, but works just as well.  It's
not the equipment, it's the person using it that really counts.
 
Bottom line:  If YOU think the handle should be black, then do it,
otherwise your doubts would affect your work.  If you don't think it
matters that much, but prefer a natural wood hilt, then don't paint it.
---
Internet: troyce@pro-haven.cts.com
UUCP:     crash!pro-haven!troyce
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: knighton@world.std.com (Gwen Knighton)
Subject: Re: Help with Songs...
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 06:36:00 GMT

There is a really good book called _Songs_of_the_Earth_, by Annie Kealoha
(sp?) which includes a large 'neoteric' section. In it you will find lots
of common pagan chants and songs.


Gwen Knighton          knighton@world.std.com         (harpist for hire)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
  When you have killed, and your bowl it is spilled, and your shoes are
        clean outworn,
  Back you will speed, for all that you need, to Oak and Ash and Thorn!
                        --Rudyard Kipling

Newsgroups: alt.pagan,talk.religion.misc
From: drake+@cs.cmu.edu (Drake)
Subject: Re: The meaning of "pagan"
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 09:35:54 GMT

In article <1i8h9lINNokv@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> SL500000@brownvm.brown.edu (Robert Mathiesen) writes:
>Drake, there is no such thing as THE Christian Bible.  It's as basic as that.
>The closest you can get are the various Bibles of ALL the different traditions
>that call themselves Christian, and they differ from one another in more ways
>than a naive Christian might think.  --  Despite my own non-Christian back-
>ground, I have spent my entire life as a scholar at a major university re-
>searching and teaching these matters, and I stand ready to back this statement
>with as much scholarship as you require.  En garde??

I think you need to explain what you mean here.  What you've said here sounds
suspiciously like a "baiting" question intended to lure the target into
making unjustified assumptions.  No thanks; what do you mean?  I suspect
that you mean more than the inclusion/exclusion of the Apocrypha.  Are
you referring to the different versions?  The non-canonical texts?



-- 
Love and Laughter,             | NOTE: Private mail must go explicitly
Xeper and Remanifest,          | to drake@seismo.soar.cs.cmu.edu
                       DRAKE   | or it'll bounce back to you...
Newsgroups: alt.pagan,talk.religion.misc,alt.atheism,alt.slack