HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Date:         Wed, 30 Dec 1992 19:08:17 CST
From:         Bob Boston <S2.RSB@ISUMVS.IASTATE.EDU>
Subject:      Scope of Writing Programs

Old Uncle Bob has been lurking out here during the discussion of
standardization, course design, program goals, teacher training and all the
other stuff y'all have been talking about during the past few weeks.

Thanks a bunch for your thoughtful comments. Rockie, Smokey, Mike Hassett and
I are working on an ad hoc committee to discuss changes in our writing program
at Iowa State, and you've given us a lot of food for thought.

Like mer, I was tempted to come to Dave Schwalm's defense when he began to get
heat about standardized courses, for I too have used department-designed
syllabi without suffering debilitating brain cramps and without maiming my
students for life. I refrained from spouting off because I knew that Dave was
able to take care of himself and that I would probably just get in the way, as
usual.

I do want to ask a question or two, however. Most of the discussion so far
seems to focus on first-year writing courses. Is that two or three-course
sequence the normal scope of a writing program at your universities?

We don't have a WPA at Iowa State; instead we have coordinators for Freshman
English, for Rhetoric & Professional Communication (RPC), and for Creative
Writing. One proposal currently being considered would place Freshman English
and RPC under the aegis of a single WPA. Does any other university have a
similarly defined writing program? We'd like to hear your reactions to this
proposal.

Bob Boston
Coordinator of Computer Writing Classrooms
Iowa State University
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Date:         Thu, 31 Dec 1992 10:09:00 CST
From:         SLATIN@UTXVM.BITNET
Subject:      Re: apology for conferencing

Not obsolescent, Eric.  Just different.

John Slatin
UT Austin
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Envelope-to: MBU-L@TTUVM1.BITNET
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Date:         Mon, 21 Dec 1992 23:05:30 -0700
From:         "David E. Schwalm" <IACDES@ASUACAD.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Standard English

Marcy, you're caught in a classic bind. If you are going to have a writing
program (with program goals and objectives) rather than a collection of
writing courses in which each instructor does his or her own thing, you have
to develop a set of competencies and a standard syllabus. And the more
sections you have taught by novices or marginally trained faculty, the more
rigid the std syllabus and the std assignments have to become. When I started
to review the assignments instructors were giving here when I first came, I
realized that I would have to tighten the program up (or down) a little. Most
of the assignments were either trivial or silly, undoable, totally unrelated
to academic enterprises, and purposeless. And there was enormous variability:
in one class students got to compare breakfast cereals or family members,
while in another students had to read complex essays and compare different
writers' views on abstract topics. The degree of difficulty of this writing
ranged wildly. You can have a looser program if you have instructors who are
knowledgeable about writing and rhetoric and who have established and agreed
to sensible goals for a required college writing course. But who's got a staff
like that? We have a pretty rigid program. We have posited certain goals and
values in our courses; we have developed syllabi and assignments that should
help students reach those goals; we help our TAs and part-timers acquire
students centered teaching methods; and we try to make the case for our
approach on the basis of good theory and good practice. We feel that our
novice instructors are able, in this way, to provide a solid writing course
for their students and to learn a great deal themselves about the teaching of
writing. Eventually, they can become a bit more creative, after they have a
better idea of what they are doing. (Most of the "creative" assignments I have
seen from new TAs were actually pretty bad writing assignments.) So, given the
resources our universities are willing to devote to writing instruction, I
don't think we need to be too apologetic about being a little rigid.

-- David E. Schwalm, Assoc. Provost for Academic Programs
___Arizona State University West
___4701 West Thunderbird Rd.
___Phoenix, AZ 85069-7100___(602) 543-4500
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Envelope-to: mbu-l@ttuvm1.BITNET
X-VMS-To: IN%"mbu-l@ttuvm1.bitnet"
X-VMS-Cc: LHAMPLYONS
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Date:         Tue, 22 Dec 1992 10:48:19 -0600
From:         LHAMPLYONS@CUDNVR.DENVER.COLORADO.EDU
Subject:      our teachers, our students

Marcy
two important threads there--
our students do vary greatly and probems vary accordingly; no problems with
using/acquiring the academic dialects/grapholects at Michigan when I taught
there; very different at this urban commuter IIA school
exploiting adjunct faculty is practically impossible to avoid in comp programs;
my inability to avoid it here led me to give up directing the Writing Program
from the end of this semester.  I finally realized things weren't going to
change and my principal role was to maintain the status quo; the only points at
which I was able to get inand make change were points that depended on adjunct
faculty doing extra work (like portfolios).  I don't mind working hard, but I
have to see some good for somebody coming out of it.  Are you too young?  Maybe,
but you'll grow old quickly runing a writing program!!  Best of luck.
Liz Hamp_Lyons
English/Applied Language
University of Colorado, Denver
LHAMPLYONS@cudnvr.denver.colorado.edu
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-VMS-To: BITNET::"mbu-l@ttuvm1"
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Date:         Mon, 28 Dec 1992 09:48:00 EST
From:         "Rhoda Carroll, Vermont College,
              Montpelier" <RHODA%MUNIN@NORWICH.BITNET>
Subject:      High school/college comp courses

Bill Condon, your posting wasn't too long.  It was great. But I wish for
an understanding of what you meant by your statement that college comp
courses are not

>courses that teach "what students should have learned in high school."  We
>must make the point that we teach "college" writing--forms of academic
>writing that students can't learn in high school, even if they want to,
>forms that are crucial to their success in a college classroom.

High school gave many of my students a (perhaps unconsciously held) standard
for what "English class" should be, and so when they need to criticize me,
they'll sometimes say that my course is too much or not enough like high school.
I'd like to hear how you characterize the difference; you'll
probably be more graceful and succinct than I could ever be,

Happy New Year to you and the rest of the  Megabyte community.

Rhoda Carroll
Rhoda Carroll*Vermont College of Norwich University*Rhoda@Norwich.Bitnet
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Date:         Sun, 27 Dec 1992 10:51:38 AST
Comments:     <27DEC92.11738905.0028.MUSIC@UNB.CA>
From:         Russ Hunt <HUNT@UNB.CA>
Subject:      Forum 3.0 Is Ready to Go!

Bob Boston --
     Is Forum a Mac-specific program?  We're looking for
something for a Novell network, but it's virtually all
DOS machines.
                                    -- Russ
                                __|~_
Russell A. Hunt            __|~_)_ __)_|~_   Learning and Teaching
Department of English      )_ __)_|_)__ __)     Development Office
St. Thomas University        |  )____) |        EMAIL: hunt@unb.ca
Fredericton, New Brunswick___|____|____|____/  FAX: (506) 450-9615
E3B 5G3   CANADA          \                / PHONE: (506) 452-7700
                       ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Date:         Sat, 2 Jan 1993 20:53:08 CST
From:         Eric Crump <C509379@MIZZOU1.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: WIOLE

On Sat, 2 Jan 1993 17:13:54 -0700 Karen Schwalm said:
>I'm certainly interested, Eric, in some kind of WIOLE project.  The
>"burning question" here seems to be whether all this writing students are
>doing--in class journals or outside of them for "fun"--makes any difference
>(I'm not sure in what---their grades, persistence, learning??)

Karen,
I was struck by the way Richard Rorty situates hermeneutics in relation
to epistemology and other philosophical schools. He said something
(if I got this right) about hermeneutics being less a methodology
competing with other methodologies and more an approach, a way of
*coping* with the world. I think of all this writing and of these
ideas for creating electronic writing environments that are
accessible to students as offering ways for students to increase
their chances of gracefully coping with an increasingly electronic,
information-rich world by giving them experience in the *kind* of
environment they'll be in. I don't *know* that writing is more
important now than it ever was, but I *believe* it is.
>
>I am interested in both a grant proposal and in developing a research
>program for electronic communication.  We have conferencing (and easy
>quantitative data retrieval) from 10 campuses (about 4000+ students each
>semester).  So where do we go from here??
>
Well, as I mentioned, I think a first step, just a baby step really,
could be to create a new list devoted to the Big Burning Questions
like the one you pose and to the practical details of developing grant
proposals and brilliant plans for creating online writing environments.
I'll inquire here Monday to see they'll let me start such a thing.

What the *next* step is, well, it'll show up sooner or later.

--Eric Crump
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Organization: University at Buffalo
X-Envelope-to: MBU-L@TTUVM1.BITNET
X-VMS-To: IN%"MBU-L@TTUVM1.BITNET"
X-VMS-Cc: ENGMYLES
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Date:         Fri, 25 Dec 1992 13:44:21 -0500
From:         ENGMYLES@UBVMS.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Standardizing sections of composition

David, let me enlarge upon your holiday greetings, if you will forgive me
for poaching.  I look forward to a long happy year of happy argument and
luxurious disagreement and enlargement!  Peace, in and out of writing!
Myles
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Envelope-to: MBU-L@TTUVM1.BITNET
X-VMS-To: IN%"MBU-L@TTUVM1.BITNET"
X-VMS-Cc: SCHWALM
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Date:         Sat, 2 Jan 1993 17:13:54 -0700
From:         Karen Schwalm <SCHWALM@GC.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: WIOLE

I'm certainly interested, Eric, in some kind of WIOLE project.  The
"burning question" here seems to be whether all this writing students are
doing--in class journals or outside of them for "fun"--makes any difference
(I'm not sure in what---their grades, persistence, learning??)

I am interested in both a grant proposal and in developing a research
program for electronic communication.  We have conferencing (and easy
quantitative data retrieval) from 10 campuses (about 4000+ students each
semester).  So where do we go from here??


--Karen T. Schwalm              Department of English
--Glendale Community College    Maricopa Community College District
--6000 West Olive Avenue        Voice: (602) 435-3651  Bitnet: schwalm@gc
--Glendale, Arizona  85302      Internet: schwalm@gc.maricopa.edu
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Date:         Wed, 30 Dec 1992 15:12:12 -0700
From:         "David E. Schwalm" <IACDES@ASUACAD.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: apology for conferencing

Not really a trick question, Eric. I have some concerns about the transfer
from speaking to writing. The speaker/listener dynamic is much different from
the writer/reader dynamic. That is, speaker and listerner share a context, and
this sharing takes a great communicative burden off of the speaker. Often when
we claim that a student has successfully *said* something that he/she had not
successfully *written*, what has actually happned is that the listener has
supplied more of the meaning than a reader can. The speaker has not really
achieved more linguistic accuracy or completeness. The one of the major
difficulties imposed by writing is that the writing must carry more context,
must be more complete. People who function well in speaking situations (most
of our students) often lack the linguistic control of the written language
necessary to make an easy transition to effective writing. Thus, I really like
the idea of computer conferencing where we can write about writing. Competent
speaking and competent writing are related but they are by no means identical.

-- David E. Schwalm, Assoc. Provost for Academic Programs
___Arizona State University West
___4701 West Thunderbird Rd.
___Phoenix, AZ 85069-7100___(602) 543-4500
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Envelope-to: MBU-L@TTUVM1.BITNET
X-VMS-To: IN%"MBU-L%TTUVM1.BITNET@vaxf.Colorado.EDU"
X-VMS-Cc: LHAMPLYONS
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Date:         Tue, 22 Dec 1992 10:25:38 -0600
From:         LHAMPLYONS@CUDNVR.DENVER.COLORADO.EDU
Subject:      Re: (Fwd: *C&CD*) RE: RE: But what can we isolated YouEssers do?
              (3)

Ron
In a sense yes, languages and dialects are different "threads."  And yet both
of them come down to power.  The pwoer of English in the world allows your
cowboy not to flinch at the African student's 5 languages; the power of status,
class, conservatism, ensures that "high" dialects remain the only accepted coin
of high-stakes. Thus is the status quo perpetuated linguistically.
Liz Hamp_Lyons
English/Applied Language
University of Colorado, Denver
LHAMPLYONS@cudnvr.denver.colorado.edu
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Envelope-to: MBU-L@TTUVM1.BITNET
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Date:         Mon, 28 Dec 1992 13:23:54 -0700
From:         "David E. Schwalm" <IACDES@ASUACAD.BITNET>
Subject:      RE: Standardizing Composition Classes

We continue pursuing the bad answer mainly because no one will seriously
entertain a better answer. Extensive reading and writing need to be pervasive
in the K-16 curriculum. Reading and writing should be as much a part of a
student's life as breathing. But that is not happening and does not seem
likely to happen. So we fall back on focused instruction as a poor
alternative. We could eliminate the comp requirement and still have enough
work to support our graduate students and ourselves. Students who want writing
courses could get them. But if we think that other disciplines would take up
their responsibility for teaching reading and writing when faced with students
who read and write poorly, let us not hold our breath. As class sizes grow at
all levels and in all disciplines, I suspect that other strategies willbe
tried first--eliminating required writing and making information available
through media other than print. Interesting possibilities.

-- David E. Schwalm, Assoc. Provost for Academic Programs
___Arizona State University West
___4701 West Thunderbird Rd.
___Phoenix, AZ 85069-7100___(602) 543-4500
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Date:         Wed, 30 Dec 1992 15:18:10 EST
From:         Karla Saari Kitalong <KITALONG@MTUS5.CTS.MTU.EDU>
Subject:      List for academic advisors?

Does anyone know of an e-mail list for academic advisors?

 ------------------------
 Karla Saari Kitalong
 ------------------------------
 Academic Computing Specialist - Department of Humanities
 Michigan Technological University, Houghton, MI  49931
 -----------------------------------------
 E-mail:  kitalong@mtus5.bitnet * kitalong@mtu.edu
 Voice:   work - (906) 487-3262 * home - (906) 482-3656
 ----------------------------------------------------------
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-VMS-To: HUGIN::NORWCH::IN%"MBU-L@TTUVM1.BITNET"
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Date:         Mon, 21 Dec 1992 10:09:00 EST
From:         "Rhoda Carroll, Vermont College,
              Montpelier" <RHODA%MUNIN%HUGIN@NORWICH.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Standard English

OK Irv, I'll bite: if you don't put grades on your students'papers, what
do you put in the box labelled "grade" that your registrar gives you
to fill out at the end of each semester?

Rhoda Carroll*Vermont College of Norwich University*Rhoda@Norwich.Bitnet
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Envelope-to: MBU-L@TTUVM1.BITNET
X-VMS-To: IN%"MBU-L%TTUVM1.BITNET@vaxf.Colorado.EDU"
X-VMS-Cc: LHAMPLYONS
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Date:         Thu, 24 Dec 1992 15:01:29 -0600
From:         LHAMPLYONS@CUDNVR.DENVER.COLORADO.EDU
Subject:      Re: our teachers, our students

Good for you, Irv: I certainly didn't mean to suggest that other people in
other situationa should stop being WPAs.  There are many shcools with with
real potential for improvement, and God bless 'em and their WPAs.  Nor did I
mean that I am giving up on WPA-ing per se--indeed I may just become one such
elsewhere, where the potential for movement toward excellence exists.  But I
know when I can't vchange things, and I know too that my carer devpt here is in
no way dependent on WPA activities (in fact, the WPA job counts as "Service,"
even the TA pre- ad in-service training; and I do so much other "service" that
I could not receive any reward at all for WPA vbecause I already had "scored
all available brownies" in that category).  Thus every hour I take from research
    or tecahing prep, grading, etc. and put into Writing Program takes away from
my merit raise and my promotion prospect for Full Prof.  Selfish?  You betcha:
I didn't make this US system, I just live in it.  Dave Schwalm has found a way,
   or a school, that enables WPA-ing within the tenure/reward system.  What I
dound was that I was tiring myself out, losing chances for reward, and
perpetuating an unjust systen for TAs, adjuncts, and consequently for students.
The only hope for change was if I refused to continue.  My job has been
shared on a temporary basis among 4 people and 2 committees.  We'll see...
Do I feel good about it?  No, no, no.  The TAs and adjuncts are left pretty much
in the lurch, becuase all this pieces of people and comittees won't equal a real
person to come talk to.  But I just heard from Brian Huot that only 14% of writi
   ng
programs have WPAs who are qualified and have publications in rhet/comp.  I
assume those others manage somehow.

The restructuring comp programs thread is fascinating.  I hope it continues: I
am being pulled in both directions, as I read the messages.
Liz Hamp_Lyons
English/Applied Language
University of Colorado, Denver
LHAMPLYONS@cudnvr.denver.colorado.edu
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Date:         Wed, 30 Dec 1992 15:59:45 CST
From:         Eric Crump <C509379@MIZZOU1.BITNET>
Subject:      WIOLE

John & Karen:

Me too, me too. I'm enamored of John's writing intensive online learning
environment so much that I & a few others wrote up a proposal of a
similar sort a couple of months ago.  We call our proposal simply the
"Online Writing Center" but I think John's better.  "Environment" is
better than "center."  We thrust copies of it at anyone who makes the
mistake of appearing interested, so if anybody out there is interested,
don't let it be known unless you want a copy to come zinging at you.
Even threw a copy at the gov'ment, hoping it would see fit to throw
some money back at us. Don't have much hope of that happening, but
we'll keep pressing the issue locally, funding or no (although outside
funding, even a little bit, sure would get the attention of the local
administrators, help chip away at the resistance/disinterest you
mention, Karen).

Who else out there is devising/designing/dreaming about creating new
online environments at your schools?  I know of only one other.  Dawn
Rodrigues and Kathleen Kiefer have written about the evolution of an
Electronic Writing Center at Colorado State  (forthcoming in _Writing
Centers in Context_ eds Joyce Kinkead and Jeannette Harris).  Seems like
I've heard someone else mention the idea on WCENTER, but can't
remember who right now.

Maybe we need to form some sort of coalition to work toward breaking
down resistence and funding qualms at our individual schools.  We
might, as a group, have more credibility than some of us (me, anyway)
have on our own.

--Eric Crump
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Organization: University at Buffalo
X-Envelope-to: MBU-L@TTUVM1.BITNET
X-VMS-To: IN%"MBU-L@TTUVM1.BITNET"
X-VMS-Cc: ENGMYLES
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Date:         Mon, 28 Dec 1992 19:41:16 -0500
From:         ENGMYLES@UBVMS.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Standardizing Composition Classes

I seem to be hammering at you, but only because your messages fill my
screen, and I have time these days.
David: how do we distinguish the learning that goes on "outside of class (col-
laborative)" fromnthat which goes on inside -- what is the inside the class
norm?  Why do we have to think of that room as confinement?
Myles
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU