HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: dleschin@FEDS66.PRIME.COM (Dmitri Leschiner)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Shafarevich and National Academy
Date: 8 Sep 92 21:08:34 GMT
Reply-To: "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" <TPS-L@indycms.iupui.edu>

>Date:         Tue, 8 Sep 1992 15:12:00 CST
>From: KOROTKOV%AUDUCVAX.BITNET@pucc.Princeton.EDU

>being a Russian I NEVER in my life supressed a single Jew!!!

Unbelievable!!!!!!!!!

How could you miss it????????????????????????
From: thietaniemi@cc.helsinki.fi
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: "Russification" of Finland
Date: 7 Sep 92 11:16:28 GMT
Organization: University of Helsinki

In article <1992Sep5.201633.1@cc.helsinki.fi>, thietaniemi@cc.helsinki.fi writes:
> In article <1992Aug31.183621.11418@ctr.columbia.edu>, boris@cashew.ctr.columbia.edu (Boris Varshavsky) writes:
>> Recently somebody here (Mark Hubey?) mentioned 1809-1917 as a period
>> of colonization of Finland by Russia. It provoced me to the question:
>> 
>> For more than a century it might be some Russian population in Finland
>> (and even not in a one generation), as a result of metropolia's "activity".
>> 
>> Do you, gentlemen, have any information regarding those people after
>> 1917?  It could be interesting to know...
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> -- 
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------
>>  Boris Varshavsky	boris@ctr.columbia.edu	|  Let        |
>>  Software Engineer	 Columbia University	|      it     |
>>  voice: 212-854-8928	  fax: 212-316-9068     |         be! |
> 
> 
> There is one peculiar fact that perhaps deserves wider attention.
> 
> On my desk I found one article of a specialist historian dealing with
> the amount of Russian-speaking population in the Grand Duchy of Finland
> in the year 1900. After critical examination of sources the author
> concludes:
> 1900 the population in Finland amounted 2 712 600 people, of which
> only 0,22 per cent (2 from thousand!) had Russian as their language.
> 
> Some data concerning the Russian-speaking population in the biggest
> finnish cities/towns in the year 1900:
> 
> Helsinki/Helsingfors         4 399
> Viipuri/Viborg/Vyborg        5 378
> Turku/Abo                      695
> Tampere/Tammerfors             115
> 
> (Source: Venalaiset Suomessa 1809-1917, SHS Helsinki 1984
>          "The Russians in Finland 1809-1917" p.25-27.
> 
> These are astonishingly low figures even to those schooled in
> Finnish history! After almost century of Russian rule the
> "russification" in Finland was very superficial, one can't actually
> speak of any oppression in this sense...
> 
> Finns were actually obedient subjects of the Czar: the statue of
> Alexander II still stands on the main square of the Helsinki city
> (opposite the university, the former Alexander-university).
> 
> The Helsinki Russian population reached its peak during the first
> world war (about 20 000, mostly military officers and soldiers).
> 
> So, the amount of Russians in Finland did not decrease after
> the bolshevik revolution, on the contrary: we got the emigrants.
 
Before anyone else notices, I must admit that there is a slight
discrepancy in these figures:

the figures about towns include the military (with families),
therefore they are higher.

Tapani Hietaniemi, University of Helsinki 

 
Xref: sparky talk.politics.soviet:7704 soc.culture.romanian:891
From: sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.romanian
Subject: Re: The revival of the "Moldavian" language
Date: 5 Sep 92 10:17:21 GMT
Organization: Enea Data AB

Mikhail S. Verbitsky (verbit@coolidge.harvard.edu) writes:
>I am sure that if Moldavan in Transdnestria are
>not content with proposed measure and it will be
>enforced, this enforcement is more facsistic than
>everything Balts ever did; still, we have not
>read yet anything which indicated that.

Well, permit me to edit the RFE/RL article for emphasis:

     "DNIESTER REPUBLIC" TO REIMPOSE RUSSIAN SCRIPT ON "MOLDOVAN
     LANGUAGE." A draft "law on languages," currently before the
     "Dniester Republic Supreme Soviet," would reimpose the Russian
     alphabet for the "Moldovan language" (i.e.  Romanian) in schools
     there, Radio Rossii reported on 24 August.
     
         Moldovan schools in that area switched to the Latin script
         following its reinstatement in Moldova in 1989, and have since
         resisted the "Dniester" authorities' orders to return the
         "Moldovan language" to the Russian alphabet.

     The proposed measure would give the "Dniester" Russian authorities 
     a pseudo-legal basis for enforcing compliance.  (Vladimir Socor, 
     RFE/RL Inc.)
-- 
Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - sommar@enea.se
"Recreation of source code from design documentation can be costly"
IEEE Std 1042/1987
Xref: sparky talk.politics.soviet:7751 soc.culture.soviet:7188
From: mitrache@gringo.usc.edu (Traian Mitrache)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.soviet
Subject: Re: Romanian language
Date: 7 Sep 1992 10:57:08 -0700
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: gringo.usc.edu

In article <1992Sep7.151716.21726@physics.ucla.edu>, viznyuk@physics.ucla.edu (Sergei Viznyuk) writes:
|> 
|>    So the original script of the language in
|> Bessarabia (nowdays Moldova) was Cyrillic until
|> it was changed to Latin in 1918 after Romanian
|> annexation of Bessarabia - may I suggest this
|> as a conclusion to this discussion ?


	Yes, this may be and end to this discussion because it proves that you
have no ideea about the Moldavian history, and it makes no sens for you to 
discuss something you don't know anything about.My dear Sergei try first to
read a history book (others than those provided by the russian communist
historians) and then maybe we could "talk".Just for your information, the latin
script was used in Moldova before 1859,when they unified with Valachia.My major
is not history so that i can not give you the exact last year when the cyrillic
script was used there,but hopefully somebody will give us some refferences.


|>    After that, may I expect the official
|> appologies from Alex Allister Shvartsman and
|> Erland Sommarskog, whose statements, intermixed
|> with personal insults, claimed something different ?
|>  Regards,
|> Serega

	Regarding the appologies,i think you are the one who should appologie
for the offense brought to the Romanian people and Romanian language,by trying
to perpetuate this Stalinist ideea of the Romanian language being of slavic 
origine.

	


	Traian


-- 


mitrache@gringo.usc.edu
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.soviet
From: patricia@cco.caltech.edu (Patricia M. Schwarz)
Subject: Re: Shafarevich and National Academy
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1992 06:16:10 GMT

>>Huh? I don't get it too. There are Jewish academicians? 
>>More than one? Please elaborate...

>I never was interested who is Jew and who is not, so just couple
>of almost obvious examples: now: L.P.Pitaevsky, in earlier times
>Ja.B.Zeldovich, L.D.Landau, I.M.Livshitz and E.M.Livshitz. Not that
>I think that you should matter, but you seems so sure that there are not ...

>Yury

>>
>>Misha.

Also A.M.Polyakov and AA Migdal (senior).

Two Jewish Russian men who love(d) (Migdal is sadly deceased) Russian
culture very much.

-patricia@cco.caltech.edu
Xref: sparky talk.politics.soviet:7711 soc.culture.soviet:7116
From: muh@physics1 (Yury M. Mukharsky)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.soviet
Subject: Re: Shafarevich and National Academy
Date: 5 Sep 1992 17:18:33 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: physics1.berkeley.edu

In article <1992Sep5.004354.15383@husc3.harvard.edu> verbit@coolidge.harvard.edu (Mikhail S. Verbitsky) writes:
>In article <Btyqyu.FG8@apollo.hp.com> goykhman_a@apollo.hp.com (Alex Goykhman) writes:
>
>Huh? I don't get it too. There are Jewish academicians? 
>More than one? Please elaborate...

I never was interested who is Jew and who is not, so just couple
of almost obvious examples: now: L.P.Pitaevsky, in earlier times
Ja.B.Zeldovich, L.D.Landau, I.M.Livshitz and E.M.Livshitz. Not that
I think that you should matter, but you seems so sure that there are not ...

Yury

>
>Misha.


Xref: sparky talk.politics.soviet:7691 soc.culture.soviet:7085
From: sergei@upenn5.hep.upenn.edu (Sergei Borodin)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.soviet
Subject: Re: Shafarevich and National Academy
Date: 4 Sep 92 20:24:59 GMT
Followup-To: talk.politics.soviet
Organization: University of Pennsylvania


 The following repply does not contain special signs for
 humour impared. You're on your own.

In article <Bu2GpF.57s@apollo.hp.com> goykhman_a@apollo.hp.com (Alex Goykhman) writes:

>    Dr.Mengele was a scientist who conducted his experiments on humans,
>    (though some at the time claimed those were not humans).  In 
>    particular, he did a lot of genetic research on identical twins.
>    The fact is, he was both a scientist and a murderer.  Now, if one's
>    scientific contribution is all that matters, not only should 
>    Dr.Mengele's NAS membership have been considered,

     A research itself doesn't matter. As for scientific contributiion
     of Dr. Mengele, it's doubtfull, but might be I'm wrong. 
     But if you're concerned about experiments on humans, as you've
     mentioned, he might not know that they were humans.

>    but his chances
>    to become a member would have been directly proportionate to the
>    number of people he had murdered during his experiments...


     No, you see, the number of murdered people is just an indication
     of the intencity of his research. But if there were no scientific
     contribution, e.g. unsuccessfull experiments, his chances remain
     the same.


>    In real life, Dr.Mengele's candidature would have never been 
>    infinite wisdom, conclude that 
>    anti-semits do not belong to their organization, so be it.

     
     You've made your point know. Sorry, that was Shafarefich who made
     that point. You've expelled him already. 
     But you see the difference between you and the NAS, they (NAS)
     havn't decided yet if Shafarevich is an antisemit. They just
     offered him to reconsider his views expressed in his work.
     So, I'm honestly believe he will publish something like this:
     "Views and opinions expressed in my article "Russophobia" are
     not mine, neither my employer."


   S.B.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
From: viznyuk@physics.ucla.edu (Sergei Viznyuk)
Subject: Re: "democratic" Estonia
Organization: UCLA Department of Physics
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 92 21:51:15 GMT

In article <1992Sep8.084426.3018@nntp.hut.fi> f33012l@puukko.hut.fi (Janne Kivel{) writes:
>viznyuk@physics.ucla.edu (Sergei Viznyuk) writes:
>
>>>Was Narva populated by Russians because it was part of Lenin's
>>>national politics? Yes...
>>
>>  Very precious combination of total ignorance with nationalist
>>hatred. Apparently this guy thinks that Lenin stacked Narva
>>with Russians before giving it away to Estonia in 1918-1920.
>
>Your version is hardly any better. You know very well the origins 
>of the industrial policy that brought the Russians to north-east Estonia
>and destroyed local environment.
>
>>>Are Estonians who lives in Narva region interested to be with Estonia? Yes!
>>
>>  Maybe, if you could find any Estonians there at all.
>>All other "population" of Narva region experience strong
>>desire NOT to be with Estonia.
>
>Serega, how can you detect this "strong desire"? So far there has only
>been uncertainty about the future. Perhaps you could be the person to help 
>Narva residents find that strong desire to unite with Mother Russia. Still, 
>I think there are enough ambitious politicians in Russia capable of 
>creating unrest among Russian-speaking people in Estonia, so that you 
>don't have to bother. 

  Just recently, after Narva residents proclaimed their
intention to hold a referendum on secession from Estonia,
the Estonian goverment ordered additional police
troops to be moved to that city to prevent the referendum.
This is just to add to already remarkable Estonian-style
"democracy"...
 S.V.

Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.romanian
From: KOROTKOV@auducvax.bitnet
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Shafarevich and National Academy
Date: 8 Sep 92 21:12:00 GMT
Reply-To: "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" <TPS-L@indycms.iupui.edu>

Mon, 7 Sep 1992 14:35:44 GMT
Andrei Zheludev <zhelud@DRFMC.CENG.CEA.FR> writes:

>You are missing an important point: the science in Russia is done by _jews_
>and not blacks or moslems. The _jews_ were always supressed by the russians,
>probably because they were so smart and the party bosses in charge of science
>in Russia just were stupid and envied them. I am russian, so I have the right
>to say such things.

Sorry, could not help but make some comments on the above thoughts.

    Since you have an ability to write and speak (and may be think) and being
in the USA can enjoy the freedom of speech you have a right to say almost
anything.
    But I wanna make a small point here. I daresay that being a Russian not
necessarily provides you with a sacrid right to promalgate stupid ideas (though
I may be wrong - you are russian). I order to make myself clear I'd like to
                         ~~~~~~~
make a statement: being a Russian I NEVER in my life supressed a single Jew!!!
So it happened!
If you did, this again doesn't give you a basis to draw conclusions about all
Russians. As for the party bosses, probably you missed the earlier discussions
result of which was that they were leading anti-Semitic policy (among others)
not because they were primarily Russians, but because they were communists.

Regards,
A.Korotkov
From: viznyuk@PHYSICS.UCLA.EDU (Sergei Viznyuk)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: democratic Estonia
Date: 8 Sep 92 22:02:56 GMT
Reply-To: "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" <TPS-L@indycms.iupui.edu>

In article <1992Sep8.064025.25116@jyu.fi> ryyti@jyu.fi (Jarmo Ryyti) writes:
>
>Yesterday 7.9.1992 Moscow correspondent Matti Valkonen of Helsingin
>Sanomat, a leading newspaper in Finland writes:

  [valuable material about threats to Russians in Central Asia & Caucasus
   deleted]

  So now, at long last, Jarmo understood that Estonia & Latvia
have taken a honorable place not among the more or less
civilized european nations but rather among such thriving "democracies"
as Uzbekistan and Azerbajdzhan. That was also my point, Jarmo.
And I'm glad you finally managed to understand me.
  But my concern goes even farther, dear Jarmo. I would
dare to claim that Estonia is even worse than Uzbekistan
and Azerbajdzhan. Uzbekistan and Azerbajdzhan, contrary
to "ultra-democratic" Estonia didn't deprive their minorities
(even Armenian !) the electorial rights and didn't accept
outright fascistic citizenship laws.
  Again accept my congratulations, Jarmo. You made not a bad
progress during last week or two.

>After reading articles what is going on in Russia and comparing what
>Serega and Co, are writing I am sure that Serega and Co. are
>not honest people.
>
>Sincerely yours,
>Jarmo Ryyti
>"Suomi - a country under the North Star"
>

  Serega & Co
From: golosov@ruhets.rutgers.edu (Denis Golosov)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Romanov House (was Re: Milyukov assassination)
Date: 7 Sep 92 05:00:59 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

verbit@brauer.harvard.edu (Mikhail S. Verbitsky) writes:

                  [...]

>I wrote that Nazi party was sponsored by one of heirs to Tzar throne,
>what is true, but I made a typo and it looked like the heir was a woman :).

>Actually, the story is following: when Great Prince Kirill Koburgskii

correct title: Grand Duke Kirill Vladimirovich. Since 1922 exiled Emperor
of all the Russias (however, at that time the latter title was not generally 
recognized - see below).

>(a father of a current heir) lived in Germany in estate of his wife,
                ^^^^^^^
His Highness Grand Duke VLADIMIR died in April 1992.

>he sponsored Nazis.

It is well-known, that the post-1922 politics of Kirill was sometimes not too
wise. However, I'd like to see the references claiming that He sponsored
Nazis. Also it seems that as early as in 1922, almost nobody had been able to
foresee the real face of Nazi party as it appeared, say, after 1933. As far as 
I am concerned, the Romanov House did not maintain any relations with post-1933
German authorities. It is well-known also that when France was occupied by
Nazis, they tryed to force Grand Duke Vladimir Kirillovich to play certain 
role in their Eastern politics. Vladimir refused to collaborate with them, and 
had been ordered to move eastwards, to Germany itself, etc. I've read that
there He tryed to help Soviet captives - and that He had nothing to do with,
say, POA (Russian Liberation Army, soiled with collaboration with Nazis). [One 
should not forget also some more recent statements of Grand Duke Vladimir  on 
political and national problems of to-day Russia].

>                    His wife, Victoria Fiodorovna, even sold her
>jewelry to help the young Nazi party (in 1921-1922). After a while
 ^^^^^^^
sounds at least suspiciously.

>he spent all his property on politics  
          ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
However, Romanov Family is not a poor one: They, for example, own some real
estate (palace and land) at St. Briak (sp.?), France, etc. In other words,
I do not think that Kirill did spend everything that way...

>                                      and was forced
>(circa 1929, by high taxes and economical depression) 
>to move in France

After, say, 1925, Paris has become the center of Russian emigration. I guess
that Kirill's long stoppage in Munich was due, at least partially, to the
harsh competition between Him and the former Supreme Commander-in-Chief
Grand Duke Nikolay Nikolayevich, Who was also seeking the Throne. On one
hand, the letter of the law was on Kirill's side, on the other - Nikolay
Nikolayevich was much more well-known and popular (at least within the White
Army). Grand Duke Nikolay Nikolayevich had been living in France and died
in 1929; in "The Well Of The Days"("Zhizn' Arsen'eva", by I.A.Bunin), there
are pages devoted to His death and burial.

       [...]

>Misha.

                                            Denis Golosov.
From: sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: The revival of the "Moldavian" language and "democratic" Estonia
Date: 5 Sep 92 10:42:00 GMT
Organization: Enea Data AB

Sergei Viznyuk writes:
>As you noted yourself, the question in "TransDniester" republic is
>HOW to teach Moldavian language, while in "democratic" Estonia the
>question is "to teach or not to teach Russian at all".

At least no one has even discussed the possibility of using a Latin
script for Russian.

As for not teaching Russian in Estonia, I'm sorry I have never
heard of any such proposal. Can anyone tell me what Viznyuk is
talking about?

>Besides, whom do you call "old-timers who are fighting to preserve
>their power" ?  I supposed you meant President of Moldova x-communist
>Mircea Snegur ? Or his former Primer-Minister x-communist and x-KGB
>officer Mircea Drug,

Oh, come on don't tell me that Smirnov & co are zealous reformists
who despise everything stamped with communism.

I don't know many details about Smirnov & co, except that they
supported the putsch and that's serious enough. But some months
ago I posted an article about the leaders in Narva. Basically
they are the same people as before. Not extraordinary, as I
understand, the same effect flourishes all over the ex-USSR.
Everyone who is at the power wants to stay there, and in Narva
it is probably a good idea to play the nationalistic card,
and there's no reason that Transdniestra is different. Except
the means of course. Some use armes, others don't. (It is worth
noticing while there are two break-aways republics in Moldova,
it has only come to an armed conflict in one of them?)

The fact that Snegur and others may have a dubious background
doesn't excuse Transdniestrian leaders.

>In particular, I'm still waiting for you answer on my
>question, why do you consider the Armenians in Nagorno-Karabakh
>as having rights to seceede from Azerbajzhan, because
>as you asserted, they voted for it, while apparently
>you consider the people in e.g. TransDniester republic
>as NOT having such right ?  What about honesty ?

I'm sorry, you must be confusing with me someone else, as I cannot 
recall having being asked such a question, nor having made any
statements of the kind you claim. In fact, I have said things
of the opposite opinion.

For the record, I have several times presented my personal principle 
of self-determination which grants the right of secession of an
area if this is the will of the majority of the inhabitants
in that area. The principle also grants them the right to join
another country, but only if that country accepts them.
-- 
Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - sommar@enea.se
"Recreation of source code from design documentation can be costly"
IEEE Std 1042/1987
Xref: sparky talk.politics.soviet:7742 soc.culture.soviet:7177
From: zhelud@drfmc.ceng.cea.fr (Andrei Zheludev)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.soviet
Subject: Re: Shafarevich and National Academy
Date: 7 Sep 92 14:35:44 GMT
Article-I.D.: husc3.1992Sep7.103545.15432
Organization: Conspiracy International
Originator: verbits1@husc9.harvard.edu

In article <1992Sep3.080520.15047@cco.caltech.edu> patricia@cco.caltech.edu (Patricia M. Schwarz) writes:
>About this Shafarevich person: I don't know anything about him, or what
>he has said or written, but I wonder how many of the Academy members would
>be so concerned if he were guilty of sexism or hating black people or
                                                       ^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Moslems or Armenians or etc.etc.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

You are missing an important point: the science in Russia is done by _jews_
and not blacks or moslems. The _jews_ were always supressed by the russians,
probably because they were so smart and the party bosses in charge of science
in Russia just were stupid and envied them. I am russian, so I have the right
to say such things.
AZ
Xref: sparky talk.politics.soviet:7726 soc.culture.soviet:7137
From: vlad@erg.sri.com (vlad)
Subject: Re: Shafarevich and National Academy
Organization: SRI International, Menlo Park, CA
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 92 20:45:07 GMT

In article <1992Sep4.060143.29938@cco.caltech.edu> patricia@cco.caltech.edu (Patricia M. Schwarz) writes:
>
>Maybe I should just say that to me, the constant level of violent crime
>against women in the world feels like a slow and silent Holocaust.

Patricia, please don't trivialize the term Holocaust. It refers to a
sytematic extermination of a whole ethnic or religeous group. 

Every time a husband beats up on his wife, or a wife drives her husband to
a heart atack, this is a tragedy. But NOT a Holocaust.

Look, I totally commesurate with the trauma of your childhood when your
father was beating up your mother. There are indeed many families where
such atrocities are committed along with child abuse. there are probably
millions of women who get raped. Just as there are millions of men killed
by their governments in the name of war. These are all terrible crimes.
But, except for war, they are perpetrated by by individuals against
individuals. This is not a Holocaust. 

Vlad

Employer may disagree



Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet