HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jcl@sactoh0.sac.ca.us (John C. Laviolette)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: updates please
Date: 4 Oct 92 20:15:46 GMT
Organization: Sacramento Public Access Unix

<1992Oct2.053723.996@u.washington.edu>
Followup-To: 
Distribution: world
Organization: Sacramento Public Access Unix, Sacramento, Ca.
Keywords: 
 
 
    Re: initiation into a tradition
 
    I noticed that you state that a Gardnerian (including yourself as an
example) does not judge a self-initiated Wiccan as being "non-Wiccan," but
only judges that person as not participating in the "power" of that
initiatory lineage.
    This makes me want to relate a recent experience, and ask a question:
         On another net, I discovered a person  --  not a Gardnerian,
apparently, but he never specified his tradition  --  who claimed quite
emphatically that a person was not Wiccan unless initiated by a legitimate
Elder of Wicca.  Furthermore, he believes that these "legitimate Elders"
are (of course) themselves initiated by legitimate Elders, and so on back
into history in a true apostolic succession.  He specifically rejects the
idea that modern Wicca was a turn-of-the-century revival based on an
amalgam of surviving folk customs.  He also rejects any Wiccan tradition
which acknowledges that it is a "new" tradition, and in fact rejects all
"artificial" or "modern" religions as vile.
    He has also emphatically stated that no one who hasn't been initiated
into a "legitimate" lineage has any right to talk about what Wicca is or
is not.
 
    Not being Wicca myself, all this would matter little to me, although I
like to point out narrowminding thinking in an attempt to correct it.
    However, after seeing your post, and realizing that this other person
would probably acknowledge you as "properly initiated," this raises a
question: just how many Gardnerians, Alexandrians, et al., agree with this
extreme position?  How many believe that True Knowledge is the exclusive
property of a few groups with ancient ancestory?  How many believe
self-initiated solitaries are not Wiccan and have no right to claim real
knowledge?
-- 
 ,-----------------------------------------------------------,
 !  "pay no attention to     !         John Laviolette       !
 !   the man behind the      ! InterNet=jcl@sactoh0.SAC.CA.US!
 !       curtain!"           ! or:     p.o. box 1493         !
From: ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com (Ailsa N.T. Murphy)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: another poem
Date: 30 Sep 92 15:06:07 GMT
Reply-To: ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com (Ailsa N.T. Murphy)
Organization: Ailanthus Project

radzy@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU (T. O. Radzykewycz) writes:

> cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese) writes:
> > This is the whole baby-voiced, forced stuypidity,
> > I'd-better-act-dumb-if-I-want-a-boyfriend, gigglegiggle
> > mentality that I can't stand.  I'm not saying that those people
> > have no right to existence -- just that being around them makes
> > my lip curl because they grate on my nerves like a handful of
> > fingernails on a mile long blackboard.
>
> Janis, once again, you've said what I want to say, and said it
> a lot better than I could ever do.  It sure is wonderful having
> you around!
>
me too!  re-read janis' long post.  i agree with every word, excpet
that i DO look like a stereotypical feminist, unshaven pits and legs
and no dresses and no makeup and all - an i am attractive.  anyway.  so
there.  *grin*

and i LOVE prety/beautiful women and pray daily for janis to become bi
(well, not literally, i would never tamper with someone's free will,
but she knows what i mean! *grin*).  why shoudl i hate pretty women?
it would be seriously counterproductive...

i'll say it again - everythignm that couls possibly exist that is
expressed by a woman is feminine.  i don't hate women, i get annoyed
with SOME women.  and, like others, i could not haev a relationship
with someone who is not my intellectual equal.  there are a lot of very
nice peopel with whom i could not have A Relationship with.  no big
deal.

                                             -ailsa

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
                    ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com
Desire.  The weight of.  The weight of our              ________
desire.  Then laugh, cry, but laugh             Silence \      / Action
more than you cry, and when you hold               =     \    /    =
the world in your hands, love Her.               Death    \  /    Life
                     - Alma Luz Villanueva                 \/
From: PA142138@utkvm1.utk.edu (Nancy Proctor)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: The Binding Spell that didn't
Date: 5 Oct 92 20:18:41 GMT
Organization: The University of Tennessee, Knoxville

Hi,
I recently did a binding spell that didn't work, or at least it didn't seem to.
I used a black candle with the person's name carved in it three times, burned
three different herbs (mugwort, mandrake, & bladderwrack), wrapped the remains
of the candle & herbs in three layers of silk, tied the whole thing with three
strings, tied in three knots each, performed the spell on the dark of the moon,
asked Hecate's assistance, and had the person who was to be protected by the
effort throw the items in a swiftly flowing river.  The whole thing felt right,
the person being bound had been causing lots and lots of problems for my
dearest friend for over a year, I felt certain that everything would work out
well.  The very next week, my friend's car was spray painted.  No, we have no
witnesses, but everyone aware of the situation thinks that the person I
supposedly bound is responsible.
Okay, now maybe someone else did it, and of course I'd like to think that since
that could mean my spell really did work.  But vandalism just doesn't
happen in our neighborhood. And the paint job had a sort of artistic flair and
the suspect is an artist.  Anyway, I know I'm rambling, What I really want to
know is . . . What can I do to make it more likely the next effort will work?
Would a protection spell be a better option?  I've been asked to hex the
trouble - making, demon-dog, rabid woman from hell, and even though she is
a really rotten person, that's much farther than I'm willing to even
consider going. (Course, the way things are going it probably wouldn't work
anyway) I'm really rather stressed about this failure and would appreciate
some suggestions.

Thanks & Blessings,

Nancy


///////////////////////////////
Nancy Josephine Proctor . . . . PA142138@UTKVM1.UTK.EDU

"It is not the answer that enlightens, but the question."
                                 Eugene Ionesco

////////////////////////////// . . .
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: lib1p@rosie.uh.edu (Tammy Stark Blandino)
Subject: Re: Out of the Closet
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: University of Houston
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 22:32:00 GMT

In article <uLaoRB3w165w@brewich.hou.tx.us>, donal@brewich.hou.tx.us (Donal) writes...
>In article <1992Sep15.202922.1880@lmt.mn.org>, ciaran@county.lmt.mn.org (Ciar
>>  For some reason, it didn't occur to me that my co-workers
>>would be reading alt.pagan.
>> 
>>  Hi Reed!  Hi Aaron!  Hi (who? probably Dave and at least
>>one Tim and maybe even a Jim, Connie, Jo, and Mike or two).
>> 
>>  Guess that places me FULLY out of the broom closet.
>> 
>>  Ciaran (enjoying the additional elbow room, but squinting
>>in the unexpected sunlight)
>> 
> 
>I have been out of the broom closet for as long as I have been Pagan. Luckily,
>I work for some fairly enlightened folks, and it is a small company. We have
>had many interesting conversations there over lunch, and I wear my pentagram
>openly.
> 
>Not everyone can do this, but it is wonderful if you can. Only by showing
>them our faces, and letting them know we have been among them all along, can 
>we put the face of a friend on their fear.


Very True....I know people who have had to go to court because of
discrimination on the job after people found out they were pagan.
I really don't know how my people would react.  I sometimes wonder 
if I post here with my name in hopes that someone will see it.

The people at work know that I am interested in this sort of thing.
I told them that I have many friends who are pagan or witches (true).
I told them that I studied this because when I wanted to find out
just what it was they believed (true in the beginning).  I just 
haven't told them that I am one too, and they haven't asked.

There is one lady that I am friends with outside of the job who asked
me.  I told her.  It turns out that she briefly got interested enough
in the subject to study a little.  It wasn't for her and she took
another path.  *BUT SHE UNDERSTOOD ME* (sigh of relief).  

Constantly I want to say something, but always I am confronted with
those images of my friends who have either been fired or had hell on
the job because it "got out".  It is that fear that holds me back.
Sometimes I just feel terrrrrrrible.  I want so much to stand on a
high place and shout "I am pagan"  "This is what I believe"  "This
is so beautiful"  "Goddess you make me feel alive" etc etc etc
I want to be able to talk openly.  I watch the Xtians talk.  It is
those times that I come to understand just how oppressive this society

still is where religion is concerned....

I have to stop now.  I'm upsetting myself.

I love you all.....
Tammy
From: usr77@pil.UUCP
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: re: errata(was a nice experience..)
Date: Tue, 06 Oct 92 14:43:42 PDT

Re: Re: errata(was a nice experience..)
By: eshin #0 @ddsw1.mcs.com (Eshin-Fun) USEnet      

So what software package for which machine did you run to generate these
horoscopes?  Is it available via FTP?

                                                 A.Lizard
====== 93 ====== mea saurus, mea saurus, mea maxima saurus! ====== 93 ======
(slogan contributed by Jessica McGeary) There are no fnords in this sig file.
Mail to me should be sent to:       |   autoreply to address I posted this
alizard@tweekco.uucp                |   from only if you want to wait a
boo!tweekco!alizard@PacBell.COM     |   solstice or two for my answer.
!uunet!pacbell!boo!tweekco!alizard  |                Kallisti!
From: lazarus@vulcan.ksu.ksu.edu (Bart -Laz- Smith)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Pagan Rock Artists...
Date: 28 Sep 1992 00:16:08 -0500
Organization: Kansas State University
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: vulcan.ksu.ksu.edu


I was wondering if anyone has collected a list of pop stars who are decidedly
non-Christian.  I can think of a few off-hand... the Red Hot Chili Peppers
(according to a friend of mine) claim to be Satanic, Tears for Fears are atheists,
as are XTC, I believe.  Anyone else have contributions?  Thanks!

--
Bart -Laz- Smith
Kansas State University
'Cats - 35, Temple - 14... a MUCH more satisfying win!  :)
"Think about it... after you spend a day in a society whose prevailing
	philosophy is 'Why make small problems when you can create a holocaust,'
	then you must navigate your way home with a society who maintains the
	same philosophy in their driving..." 
				-- "Frank's Chair" -- 2nu -- Ponderous
From: amanda@INTERCON.COM (Amanda Walker)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Tarot traditions
Date: 28 Sep 92 22:13:03 GMT

c1741@moncol.monmouth.edu (MICHAEL CARSON) writes:
> The second is magickal  I don't know how the energy of the cards
> would interact with the pick and choose method.

It wouldn't matter, unless you decide it matters.  The magick is not in the 
cards themselves...


Amanda Walker
From: darsie@eecs.ucdavis.edu (Richard Darsie)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Freedom of Speech....definition
Date: 30 Sep 92 21:24:08 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: University of California, Davis

In article <3220034@hpcc01.corp.hp.com>, radzy@hpcc01.corp.hp.com (Lynne Radzykewycz) writes:
> 
> When I look at my yearbook, I see my old tormentors and think "you probably
> got what you deserve in life."  It's not said with malice or hate, just
> based the experiences I got later in life.

I'm sure my old tormentors are all Republifascist Fundies now!

Blessings,

Richard
(Tuneweaver)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Witches and death
From: wce@hogbbs.scol.pa.us (Bill Eichman)
Date: Sun, 04 Oct 92 02:13:33 EDT
Organization: The Heart of Gold BBS, Lemont PA

cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese) writes:

> My personal philosophy is based on a very simple analogy with classical
> wave mechanics in physics.  
> 


Yes, I've borrowed a lot from physics, classic and modern, for my own 
"mythopoeic" explanation of death and the "soul". Also quite a bit from 
biology and genetics-- I don't think that any mocern philosophy of death 
that doesn't take into account the replication and immortality of the dna 
molecule can be taken seriously, frankly.

Maybe all we need are personal and individual explanations for death? 
Maybe there's no need for a pagan "teaching" about death? I don't know-- 
I personally think there _is_ a need for some sort of community 
re-evaluation of death philosophy, but then, I'm an oddball.

You know, I bet when we all start dying this business of pagan attitudes 
towards death is going to be taken quite a bit more seriously. But there 
aren't that many pagan's that have been practicing more then twenty 
years, and most of the pagan elders are still pretty perky, at least here 
in the US.

Who knows? I think if this modern paganism wants to be taken seriously, 
it's eventually going to have to develop some form of rigorously tested, 
yet flexible general philosophy. I imaginbe it will be one of those 
"evolution in action" sort of things, wherein the less useful ideas get 
left behind....

Later, Bill
From: pharvey@mipos3.intel.com (Paul Harvey)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: just wondering
Date: 6 Oct 92 21:28:26 GMT
Organization: heads go down like the sun, hon, here it comes!

In article <BvMMGB.614@access.digex.com> 
corun@access.digex.com (Corun MacAnndra) writes:
>In article <2ACEAE9E.25734@news.service.uci.edu> 
cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese) writes:
>>Anyone else see Saturday Night Live?  I'm not just talking about Sinead
>>O'Connor -- the whole SHOW was heavy.  They are really scared, here.  Of
>>course, it helped that the actor from "Bob Roberts" was on . . . 
>No, what happened?

I only saw parts in the background, if you know what I mean. It seemed like
a nice Christian Family Values type show. They had a nice Christian campfire
skit, which was ... um ... nice. And Sinead did two nice, simple, conformist,
easy to listen to, love ballads. Her style is changing, she is becoming much
less radical and seems to be more at peace with her role as a modern Christian
woman. One was a tear jerking tribute to the Pope, almost made me convert, 
but ... Then there was what's his name who's a member of 12 twelve-step 
programs or some such. It wasn't his best show, but that's alright ... I'm
curious as to what Janis means by, "really scared, here"? I assume she is
refering to Orange County, that hotbed of Clinton supporters. I suppose that
it could be a shock to an Orange County Republican for Clinton, but the
gospel message is spreading all over the world, it was only a matter of time
before it hit those conformist conservatives in the Big Apple. Yep, the days
of Belushi as a bee are long since gone, SNL has also gone Christian. Praise
the lord and pass the amunition. Onward Christian soldiers, marching off
to (Buchanan's Kultural and Religious) war.
From: ymir@eagles.uucp (Ymir Thunarsson)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Newest Baby Pagan.. 
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 92 20:25:17 CDT
Organization: Eagles Reaches Church of Asatru - Elder Hof

donal@brewich.hou.tx.us (Donal) writes:

> Donal and Shannon are proud to announce the birth of 
> 
>              Matthew Glenn Porter Smith
>              at 3:17pm on September 24th, 1992
>              Birthweight: 8 lbs 10 ozs
>              Length: 20 1/2"
>              
> Mother, baby, and Father are doing well. :D
 
     CONGRATULATIONS! GOOD HEALTH AND BLESSED BE YOUR HOME!
        -Ymir Thunarsson
         Eagles Reaches
From: liam@alehaus.uucp (liam)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: another poem
Date: Sat, 03 Oct 92 09:57:13 CDT
Organization: The Alehaus, a Brewer's Witch affiliate, alehaus@brewich.hou.tx.us

cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese) writes:

> In article <1992Sep30.162246.13899@ncsu.edu> blchapma@eos.ncsu.edu (BEKKI LYN
> >
> >Apparently Hillary Clinton and Barbara Bush had a contest to see who
> >could make the best chocolate chip cookies.  This came about after
> >Hillary's comment about not being a housewife.  (I don't know the
> >exact quote).  After that, she's had to prove that she isn't against
> >housewives by doing things like making cookies.
> 
> Since when is baking cookies a prereq for being a housewife?  My
> boyfriend bakes `em; so do I.  If they want to compete to see who's the
> better housewife, let's see them scrub toilets.
> 
> Blessings,
> Janis 
> 

        I agree completly, being male and a fair cook and housekeeper 
besides, making cookie baking a prerequisite (sp?)  of being a housewife 
does seem a bit inane.
                                Blessed Be,
                                         Liam

------------------
%A@%n (%W)
Origin: The Alehaus -- Houston, TX -- 
     "Old witches never die....they just move in different circles"
From: c1741@moncol.monmouth.edu (MICHAEL CARSON)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: another poem
Date: 28 Sep 92 14:13:47 GMT
Organization: Monmouth College, W. Long Branch, N.J.  07764

In article <2AC62E11.12269@news.service.uci.edu> cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese) writes:
>
>But, it's not entirely unexpected.  Clinton has become noteworthy at the
>very point in time when people (perhaps for the last time) are trying
>their damnedest to deny all this "feminism" shit.
	
	"Last time"?  Somehow I have difficulty in being so optimistic. :'(

>Marilyn Quayle and Barbara Bush (whatever they may be privately) are the
>lasst bastion of old womanhood nationally -- the college senior and
>sorority president who scoped out the graduating class and surrounding
>fraternities to see who looked like he'd make the most money.  Clinton
>is the one who got out, got a useful degree, got a job, and met her
>husband on his own terms, as an equal.

	What is interesting is that doing what you suggest BB and MQ did
shows a great deal of self-interest and determination to make a good life
for themselves.  I think this is also the aim of getting a good job and
living independantly.  Different paths, same goal.  If ya ask me, we ALL
should be able to take whichever path we want to take.

>Scary.

	Only if this ISN'T the lasst generation of "old womanhood".  

|o|\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/|o|
|o| Of Course I speak  |      michael carson       | Carpe Diem, Man.        |o|
|o|  only for myself.  | c1741@moncol.monmouth.edu |                -me      |o|
|o| Would YOU let me   +---------------------------+-------------------------|o|
|o|  speak for you?!?  |      All flames to: nobody@moncol.monmouth.edu      |o|
|o|\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/|o|
From: lazarus@maico.ksu.ksu.edu (Bart -Laz- Smith)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Neewollah info!
Date: 2 Oct 1992 02:46:58 -0500
Organization: Kansas State University
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: maico.ksu.ksu.edu
Keywords: Halloween!!!


(I know I should have cross-posted... see also same subject in alt.magick...)

Neewollah is an annual celebration held in my hometown of Independence, Kansas.
It's centered around (or more often than not, before), and roughly based on`
Halloween.  It's a pretty big event, with such activities as a carnival, street
acts, TWO parades, concerts, and even a beauty pagent over the course of a
week!  

If you want more information about Neewollah (which, by the way, is Halloween
spelled backwards  :) ), just e-mail me and I'll send you info from a flyer I
just found at home!

--
Bart -Laz- Smith
Kansas State University
'Cats - 35, Temple - 14... a MUCH more satisfying win!  :)
"Think about it... after you spend a day in a society whose prevailing
	philosophy is 'Why make small problems when you can create a holocaust,'
	then you must navigate your way home with a society who maintains the
	same philosophy in their driving..." 
				-- "Frank's Chair" -- 2nu -- Ponderous
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: jdh@math.psu.edu (Jeremy D Hall)
Subject: Re: Oh, Bother revisited
Keywords: sleep, Saturday morning
Organization: Penn State Department of Mathematics
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1992 04:10:05 GMT

In article <1992Oct1.131647.4480@desire.wright.edu> josborne@desire.wright.edu writes:
>
>  I can't believe it.  An entire worldwide network of computer nerds and nobody
>knows where Ailsa got "Oh, bother."  It's Winnie the Pooh!  Come on guys,
>what are you doing on Saturday mornings?  Studying?
>
>
>                         Fan of the Pooh Bear. 

Studying?  Only in extreme circumstances!  I'm usually still asleep (till 12:30
PM or so),

And, since Alisa requested (even though I'm not a regular poster, but a regular
reader:

Born 12/10/72 8:03 AM St. Joseph's Hospital, Syracuse, NY.  Sagittarius...
...not sure of the rest (anyone know where I can find this out????).

Jeremy Hall
Penn State University
jdh@math.psu.edu
Disclaimer:  these opinions are probably those of a deranged lunatic!
Newsgroups: alt.pagan,alt.drugs
From: ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe)
Subject: Re: Witchcraft & Hallucinogens
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 07:21:53 GMT
Keywords: atropine belladonna datura witchcraft

duve@ellis.uchicago.edu (michael andrew duvernois) writes:

>The related herbs, atropa belladonna and aconite, can be easily made into
>a tropical paste similar to that used by 'witches'.  Once again dosage 
>must be carefully determined or your 'flight' might become permanent.

I believe that the author meant to type "a TOPICAL paste".  I do not normally
correct such minute details, but when the topic is as potentially fatal as
this, I don't think the author will mind.

My opinion on this: if you don't know enough herbalism to know all these 
terms on sight, you probably don't know enough to use these substances.  An
additional hint I have seen is the suggestion that the paste should be wiped 
off as soon as it has had the desired effect.  Of course, this requires having
someone present who will judge when the dosage is sufficient.  I think that 
having another *experienced* person present is always a good idea.  I would
like to reemphasise the importance of set and setting as well.  These should
be carefully arranged.  (Another reason for having another person present--if
things get off the beam, the other person can adjust the set or setting.)


              Merry meet, merry part, merry meet again,
                               Br'anArthur

Queer, Peculiar, and Wyrd! :-)

******************************************************************************
Newage is hypoallergenic spirituality--
it's for people who are allergic to the word religion.
                                   --Jon Jay Obermark

Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: corun@access.digex.com (Corun MacAnndra)
Subject: Re: New Janis Name
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 14:46:04 GMT

In article <2ACA1CAB.13877@news.service.uci.edu> cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese) writes:
>
>How about alt.pagan.hellraiser?   

OK, I can buy into that one. <big grin>

Glad you like the pictures. May they wrap you in a blanket of memory that
warms your soul.

Bb,

Corun


-- 
===========================================================================
    Corun MacAnndra    |
  Dark Horde by birth  |      Forewarned is a Hindu god.
    Moritu by choice   |