From: condic@gw.wmich.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: USTASHA GENOCIDE
Date: 15 Oct 92 14:19:45 GMT
Organization: Western Michigan University


(2<FPZdnx *4>HR\fpz>to ask oneself: How could it have been possible, when
>within the borders of today's Croatia and Bosnia-Hercegovina
>there were ca. 1,966,000 Serbs in 1941, and 1,610,000
"		''''''''''    		     ''''''''''
,
6You see, the first number was number of Orthodox people in, 
@what are now, more or less, Croatia and B&H.  The second 
Jnumber is number of people that declared themselves as Serbs, 
Tsome of them Muslims, some of them Catholics, most of 
^them Orthodox.  You want some examples?   Sure, Alija Izetbegovic
hcounted himself as Serb in 1948.  Before war he was counted as
rMuslim.  You got a picture, I hope?  The second example is, I guess
|you have never heard about Mesa Selimovic.  On each census in
the post-WWII Yugoslavia he claimed to be a Serb, unlike on
the pre-war census. 	
Anyway, it is the most unfortunate for me, and for some members
$of my family, that you are wrong.  Otherwise Serbs would be still
.majority in Bosnia, Vukovar, Ilok, itd.   Actually, now we are
8majority, again, thanks to people like pres.Tudjman, who 
Bprovoked all this by denying that something happened, and by 
Lbeing caught in attempt to repeat it.  Three times in the same century, 
Visn't it too much to expect from Serbs to go through? 
`
j>in 1948--and this in spite of many migrations and many
t>killings not attributable to the ustasha?"
~>--Dr. Bogoljub Kocovic, World War II Victims in Yugoslavia,
>(in Serbian), Veritas Foundation Press, London, 1985, p. 54.
>
>-- 
&>************************************************************
0>ANYONE CAN HAVE AN OPINION ON ANYTHING,INSTANTANEOUSLY! BUT,
:>OPINIONS, AS SUCH, ARE GENERALLY WORTHLESS, UNLESS THEY ARE
D>WELL-GROUNDED ON SOUND EVIDENCE AND VALID ARGUMENTS! J.CONDIC,
N>E-MAIL:CONDIC@GW:WMICH.EDU;GEN.STUDIES,WMU,KALAMAZOO,MI 49008
X>*************************************************************
b
lRegards,
v


Dear Mr Stojanovic:
In answer to your question: Yes, I have reposted my brief
quote from Kocovic 28 times. You are among the very few 
who have commented on it, or challenged it. In reply to
your objection to it, I am reposting H. Galic's post of
September, 1991. After reading it, you will be aware that
	others arrive at approximately the same figures to which

you object as methodologically erroneous.
Sincerely, Joseph M Condic

Subject: VICTIMS OF WORLD WAR II IN YUGOSLAVIA (Was: Albanian and Croatian majorities)
From: na0i+@andrew.cmu.edu (Nenad Antonic)
([	This is a repost of an article posted at the beginning of
2	September, by H. Gali\'c.	
<		I hope that those interested will find some reliable
F	data -- obtained by a Serbian scientist, not fictionist,
P	besides some others.						]
R        VICTIMS OF WORLD WAR II IN YUGOSLAVIA:
\        FACTS
f[This document was prepared by the "Rugjer Boskovic" Chapter of AMAC]
p 
zThe war of Serbia and the Yugoslav Army against Croatia is waged on
the battlefield, but also in the world media. The most undignified
aspect of the media war is the manipulation of the "Book of the Dead"
of World War II.
" 
,In the Balkans, World War II included the struggle against the Nazi
6invaders, but also a genocidal "settling of old accounts" among nations.
@Both Serbs and Croats were the principal victims and principal villains,
Jbut no nation in Yugoslavia was spared the bullet, knife or gas chamber.
T 
^The magnitude of the genocide committed by the Nazi-installed Ustasha
hregime against Serbs in the "Independent State of Croatia" (today
rCroatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina) has been argued with particular passion.
|Various numbers of Serb (and Jewish) victims of genocide have been used
by Serbs and Croats to argue that the latter are "the most genocidal
nation" or to refute this contention. The Serbian press in Yugoslavia
and abroad and some Western media have used the number of 750,000 Serb
$victims. Recently, however, a part of English-language press started
.to quote just "thousands" or "tens of thousands".
8 
BThe purpose of this document is to identify verifiable public
Linformation on WW II victims in Yugoslavia. The paucity of politically
Vuntainted information on this question is surprising given the importance
`of the issue in the current political debate. This document is no more
jthan a summary of third party data. It does not imply any judgment or
tpolitical attitude. Rather, it is intended to stimulate the reader to
~research  these issues from works quoted here and from other sources.
 
Three studies were identified as based in direct demographic surveying
and/or in scientific analysis of demographic data: In 1964, the Yugoslav
&government surveyed victims of WW II to support its claim for war
0reparations. The Serb emigre scholar Bogoljub Kocovic and the Croat
:demographer Vladimir Zerjavic analyzed demographic data. We did not
Dconsider sources provided by politicians, even when they have scholarly
Ncredentials (e.g., Croatian president Franjo Tudjman or Serbian
Xhistoriographer Vasilije Krestic). Here we neither analyze the
bcredibility of sources nor discuss them. We do not claim that these
ldata are correct, but are not aware of any serious rebuttal. Estimates
vbased on reports by Western missions to Yugoslavia during World War II

are not analyzed here.
 
Numbers of World War II victims in Yugoslavia vastly different from
(those summarized below are simply not supported by published evidence.
2 
<                         ---------------------
F 
P1. Dr. Bogoljub Kocovic: Zrtve drugog svetskog rata u Jugoslaviji
Z(World War II Victims in Yugoslavia; in Serbian), Veritas Foundation
dPress, London, 1985.
n 
x>From the Introduction, pp. 17-20:
 
"The peoples of Yugoslavia experienced tremendous losses. Other European
nations were victim mostly of German imperialist aggression. But in
 Yugoslavia, one must add the victims caused by the armies of various
*German satellites and casualties in fights between innumerable local
4units and movements participating in a multi-faceted civil war:
>Ustashas, Domobrans, the White Guard, Balists, Nedic and Ljotic
Hvolunteers, Folksdeutschers (ethnic Germans), Chetniks, and Partisans..."
R 
\"Victims continued to accrue even after the end of the war, due to
fliquidation of political opponents by the communists. This process was
pcompleted by the time of the census of 1948, and it is fully justified
zto take into account these post-war victims of communist terror too.
But for the civil war, these post-war deaths would not have occurred..."
 
 
""I considered as my duty to examine the number and the nature of war
,victims in Yugoslavia. The task involved, of course, serious and
6protracted research. At first, I believed that all it takes would be
@good will and objectivity. And the data, of course. But as I went
Jdeeper to the core of the issues, I started to perceive the enormity of
Tproblems I was facing..."
^ 
h"Very soon it dawned upon me that the major obstacle to my work would
rbe the myths created over four decades about the number of victims,
|myths by now deeply implanted in the souls of the people of all
religions, political beliefs, and nationality, myths which, by
repetition, became a "reality". There will be many who will reject
my study because it does not conform with their beliefs..."
$ 
."This study does not discriminate between those who fell fighting
8against fascism, and those Yugoslavs who died as result of our own
Bcivil war..."
L 
V"People died. No rebellion, even though justified, no sorrow, as deep
`and as sincere as it may be, will ever bring them back. Revenge would
jnot change anything; it would only further weaken Yugoslav peoples and
tthe country as a whole."
~ 
 
The most important tables from this work follow.
 
&ACTUAL  VICTIMS  OF  WAR  BY  NATION
0(p. 124)
: 
DNation             Estimate        Possible Variation
N___________________________________________________________
XSerbs              487,000         452,000-528,000
bMontenegrins        50,000          48,000-52,000
lCroats             207,000         190,000-240,000
vMuslims             86,000          80,000-100,000

Macedonians          7,000           5,000-10,000
Albanians            6,000           4,000-8,000
Ethnic Germans      26,000          20,000-50,000
(Hungarians           5,000           3,000-10,000
2Roms (Gypsies)      27,000          20,000-35,000
<Jews                60,000          57,000-63,000
FOthers              21,000          10,000-33,000
P____________________________________________________________
ZTOTAL            1,014,000         917,000-1,165,000
d 
n 
x 
 
 
ACTUAL  WAR  VICTIMS  BY  REPUBLICS
 (p. 182)
* 
4Nationality              Number of Victims (to the nearest thousand)
>_____________________________________________________________________
H                   in Croatia    in Bosnia-Herzegovina   in Serbia
R_____________________________________________________________________
\Serbs/Montenegrins   125,000           209,000            151,000
fCroats               124,000            79,000              4,000
pMuslims                    0            75,000              6,000
zEthnic Germans         6,000             1,000             16,000
Roms (Gypsies)        15,000             5,000              5,000
Jews                  17,000            10,000             26,000
Others                 8,000             3,000             19,000
"_____________________________________________________________________
,TOTAL                295,000           382,000            227,000
6 
@ 
J 
T 
^PERCENT  ETHNIC  LOSS  PER  REPUBLIC
h(p. 111 and item 35, p. 184)
r 
|Serbs/Montenegrins in:  Croatia                 16.3 %
	                        Bosnia-Herzegovina      14.6
	                        Montenegro              11.6
	                        Macedonia               10.9
$	                        Serbia                   3.1
.	 
8	Croats in:              Bosnia-Herzegovina      11.4 %
B	                        Croatia                  4.2
L	 
V	Muslims in:             Bosnia-Herzegovina       7.4 %
`	                        Montenegro               6.0
j	                        Serbia                   4.7
t	 
~	(This means, e.g., that 16.3% of Serbs/Montenegrins in Croatia
	 were killed during the war, 83.7% survived the war).
	 
	 
&	 
0	 
:	On several occasions the author quotes myths which had become a part
D	of the official Yugoslav propaganda:
N	 
X	"Although it is difficult with utmost precision to establish the number
b	of demographic, let alone actual, war victims in Yugoslavia, it can
l	still be categorically asserted that some figures used both in the
v	country and among the emigre groups abroad are pure fantasy, not to
say something else. To claim 1,700,000, or even 3,000,000 actual victims,


is absolutely indefensible. Consequently, to claim that ca. 700,000 were

killed in the concentration camp at Jasenovac is pure nonsense.

One has to ask oneself: how could have it been possible, when within
(
the borders of today's Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina there were
2
ca. 1,966,000 Serbs in 1941, and 1,610,000 in 1948 - and this in spite
<
of many migrations and many killings not attributable to the Ustashas."
F
(p. 54)
P
 
Z
"The actual figure of victims among Serbs and Montenegrins is between
d
500,000 and 580,000. This is a lot, too much by far. But for many
n
nationalists among the Serbs, the number will appear to be "scandalously"
x
low. Many of them are looking for spiritual food to ignite their hatred

of the Croats. There is a deep conviction, not to say a myth, about a

million, if not more, Serbs killed by Croats. There is a belief that

it was only Serbs who suffered real losses. So, in the Serbian emigre

circles one finds various unsupported figures: that the Germans executed

ca. 250,000 Serbs; that between 100,000 and 250,000 Serb youths died on

the Srem front; that the Ustashas killed 600,000 Serbs in 1941 and 1942.

In each instance, these figures are parts of a myth generated by those

circles." (p. 101)

 

                         ---------------------

 

 

2. Dr. Vladimir Zerjavic, The losses of Yugoslav population in the
second World War (in English), Geographical Papers 8: 83-107; 1991,
Institute of Geography, University of Zagreb, Zagreb.
(This is a comprehensive summary of the book under the same title
"Zerjavic published in Croatian.)
, 
6 
@Kocovic's figures have been independently arrived at by Dr. Vladimir
JZerjavic. Here are his totals (from Table 8, p. 96):
T 
^ 
hWORLD  WAR  II  VICTIMS  IN  YUGOSLAVIA  PER  NATION
r 
|Serbs                                   530,000
Croats                                  192,000
Slovenes                                 42,000
Macedonians                               6,000
$Montenegrins                             20,000
.Muslims                                 103,000
8Czechs                                    1,000
BPoles                                     1,000
LRussians/Ukrainians                       5,000
VHungarians                                2,000
`Ethnic Germans                           28,000
jAlbanians                                18,000
tTurks                                     2,000
~Jews                                     57,000
Romanians                                18,000
Other                                     2,000
_______________________________________________________
&TOTAL                                 1,027,000
0 
: 
D 
NThe same table gives the numbers per republics too. For the more numerous
XYugoslav nations these numbers are (in thousands):
b 
l            Bosn-Herz.  Monten.  Croatia   Macedon.  Slovenia   Serbia
v 

Croats          64        1        106       0          0          7
Slovenes         0        1          2       0         32          1
Montenegrins     0       20          0       0          0          0
(Muslims         75        4          2       4          0         15
2Hungarians       0        0          1       0          0          1
<Albanians        0        4          0       0          0         14
FJews             9        0         10       0          0         14
P 
Z 
d 
nAbroad (in thousands):  Serbs        33         Muslims       3
x                        Croat        14         Hungarians    0



 
*
4
>
H
R
\
f
p
z













conclude that if these casualties had been included, the total would
agree closely with the results of Kocovic and Zerjavic.
 
$ 
.Here are presented the numbers of dead by republics and the numbers of
8dead by nationality, as found by the 1964 survey:
B 
L 
VNUMBERS OF WORLD WAR II VICTIMS BY REPUBLIC
` 
j   Yugoslavia                      597,323
t   Bosnia-Herzegovina              177,045
~   Montenegro                       16,903
   Croatia                         194,749
   Macedonia                        19,076
   Slovenia                         40,781
&   Serbia                           97,728
0   Vojvodina                        41,370
:   Kosovo                            7,927
D   Unknown                           1,744
N 
X 
bVICTIMS OF WORLD WAR II PER NATIONALITY
l(totals and percentage of grand total)
v 

     Croats                83,257                 15.9
     Slovenes              42,027                  7.0
     Macedonians            6,724                  1.1
(     Montenegrins          16,276                  3.1
2     Muslims               32,200                  5.4
<     Jews                  45,000                  7.5
F     Turks                    686                  0.1
P     Albanians              3,241                  0.5
Z     Hungarians             2,680                  0.5
d     Slovaks                1,160                  0.2
n     Others                16,202                  2.5
x                                                ---------
                                                 100.0 %
 
 
 Again, remember that this survey includes only victims that could be
*legitimately claimed for reparation purposes.
4 
>                          ---------------------
H 
R 
\We conclude by quoting Dr. Kocovic: "If the spirit of democracy and
ftolerance, and correct information, dialogue, free discussion,
pcompromise, the will of the majority and the respect of the minority
zrights prevail, we will not have to add any more victims to the
enormous list examined in this study. Nobody will be mutilated, there
will be no widows, no orphans, nor shall we witness again the
destruction of material and cultural wealth created laboriously by
"untold generations."
, 
6 
@ 
J 
T(Prepared in August 1991)
-- 
************************************************************
ANYONE CAN HAVE AN OPINION ON ANYTHING,INSTANTANEOUSLY! BUT,
OPINIONS, AS SUCH, ARE GENERALLY WORTHLESS, UNLESS THEY ARE
WELL-GROUNDED ON SOUND EVIDENCE AND VALID ARGUMENTS! J.CONDIC,
E-MAIL:CONDIC@GW:WMICH.EDU;GEN.STUDIES,WMU,KALAMAZOO,MI 49008
*************************************************************