From: ceb@dbrus.unify.com (Caroline E. Bryan)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: dealin w/atheist
Date: 10 Apr 92 03:36:59 GMT
Organization: /usr/lib/news/organization

In article <Apr.8.04.31.48.1992.27847@dumas.rutgers.edu> 
superc@sam.ksu.ksu.edu (Shawn E Chase) writes:
>
> 1. hypothetical situation: let's say that there is a group of people on an
>island who never hear the gospel in their lifetime. They die and go to hell.
>(atheist's question) "is that supposed to be some kind of a just god???"

Ideal reply:  "No, that isn't any kind of a just god.  But what does this 
  scenario have to do with Christianity?"
Expansion:  This situation, up to and including the word "die", is not hypo-
thetical, but real.  To this day there are people living in communities, iso-
lated and otherwise, who never hear the gospel in their lives or who hear it
and are taught lies about it, and then die.  A few adherents of a few denomi-
nations would maintain that these people would go to hell, but most adherents
of most denominations would agree that it is how a person uses his/her life,
not the quantity or quality of education s/he receives, that determines whe-
ther s/he ends up in heaven or hell.

> ... here are some of the main questions, but the principal one is: WHY
> DOES GOD ALLOW SUFFERING AND PAIN IN THIS WORLD? 

Ask this person if s/he really thinks that suffering and pain, and/or death,
is really the absolute worst thing that can happen to a person.  The inci-
dences of suicide show that plenty of people think that something in their
lives is worse than death, so death isn't the ultimate horror.  Many women in
situations where pregnancy and childbirth are optional choose to have more
than one child, so clearly something makes the pain worthwhile; in other
words, in these women's eyes, not having another child is worse than the pain
of having it.  And look at all the joggers out there:  they clearly think
that enduring some suffering every morning is better than getting flabby and
out of shape.  Then there is suffering associated with learning how to play
sports well, or a musical instrument, or calculus; there is the pain of the
needle prick while getting vaccinated, hearing the alarm clock ring every
morning for 25000 workdays, sunburn, the ache of muscles after a good day
rock climbing, sore fingers after a quilting bee, simple weariness after a
day weeding in the garden or poring over the stamp collection, the aching
eyes after finishing a marvelous book 3 hours after bedtime, ringing ears
after a rock concert, and so on.  "No pain, no gain" applies not only to ex-
ercise but to almost everything in life.

The determining factor in all these is that people are free to choose whether
to accept pain or not; the flip side of this is that people are free to choose
whether to inflict pain or not.  So this person's question might change to
"Why does God allow people to inflict pain and suffering on other people?"
You can point out the alternatives.  
1.  God could put a magic barrier up so that a deed that inflicts pain either
  directly or indirectly gets blocked:  you hit a baseball which would ordi-
  narily fly out of the park as a grand slam and bean someone, and it stops
  dead in midflight and gently floats to the ground; the umpire rules inter-
  ference; your team loses by 2 runs; 15 people can't make the rent because
  they bet their paycheck that your team would win; and their families become
  homeless.  Oops, someone else suffered!  The magic barrier is not particu-
  larly efficient.
2.  God could force everyone to act like angels.  Well, almost like angels:
  angels have the freedom to choose and God doesn't force them to choose Him
  every time.  They just do.  Why don't we?  Why doesn't God remove free will
  from us and force us to act like automotons?  Do you really want to be the
  most irritating kind of person in fiction, the type who smiles unceasingly
  and goes around scattering flowers and platitudes on everyone and every-
  thing?  Would you want God to take away all of your independence and reli-
  ance on your own talents and brain, and force you to go to Him for every-
  thing?  If we had never known freedom, we would not have a problem with
  this; but even people who are born into slavery are known to rebel, to know
  that to be allowed to try their hands at things freely, to make their own
  mistakes and achieve their own triumphs, is far better than being even the
  best cared-for slaves.
God "allows" suffering and pain because He allows people just like you and
me -- no! He allows you personally and me personally to act like real slime
balls to the rest of humanity.  He also allows you and me to wise up, make
amends, and work on employing our talents more productively.


Carrie		ceb@dbrus.unify.com	x6244
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
|      A woman without a man is like a fish without a bicycle.  -- Anon.      |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+