From: ishikawa@ds5200.personal-media.co.jp (Chiaki Ishikawa)
Newsgroups: fj.misc
Subject: Re: complement/compliment (was NG for gaijin topics.) (English)
Date: 22 Jul 92 13:28:02 GMT
	<1992Jul14.064301.18789@gssm.otsuka.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<MARKD.92Jul14133240@stallman.csl.sj.nec.com>
	<SANTOS.92Jul15115310@melon.mickey.ai.kyutech.ac.jp>
	<MARKD.92Jul15103714@stallman.csl.sj.nec.com> <SANTOS.
Reply-To: ishikawa@personal-media.co.jp
Distribution: fj
Organization: Personal Media Corp., Tokyo Japan
In-reply-to: davidg@aegis.or.jp's message of 22 Jul 92 01:32:05 GMT


Dear David,

Thank you for the long response you posted.

>>>>> On 22 Jul 92 01:32:05 GMT, davidg@aegis.or.jp (Dave McLane) said:

Dave> ishikawa@ds5200.personal-media.co.jp (Chiaki Ishikawa) writes:

Dave> I grew up in the suburbs of NYC. My father was from Missour and my
Dave> mother grew up in Canada so I never had a strong NY accent. I've
Dave> also lived in Iowa, Texas for a year or so and California for 11
Dave> years. Also, England for 6 months, France, Turkey, .... Phillipines,
Dave> etc. So I don't teach them any particular dialect. 
	Wow... Long list of places. I had a few friend who moved
around all over Japan, but yours certainly is a wide list.

Dave> What I try my best to do is to help them realize that there are lots
Dave> of Englishes but the one most people *speak*, no matter what their
Dave> dialect, is very much Anglo-Saxon. If you what to know what this is,
Dave> pick up an English language newspaper and read the sports page. Look
Dave> at the kind of (short) words that people use when they speak,
Dave> compared to the words the writer uses to describe the situation. For
Dave> example, from today's Daily Yomirui (92/07/22):
	[examples deleted.]

I understand what you are saying (after all I myself have had already
tons of lessons/self learning to last another life time if there is
one!). However, you might explain this better to someone unaware of
this by using "small words" versus "big words", or using a political
column article and a quote from a folksy politician instead of sports
article. I think sports articles are less wordy (less wordier?) than
high-brow articles you find in politics pages. I would think that the
usage of "leg" in the quoted article was quite rhythmic and good. 

(The same difference exists with written Japanese and spoken Japanese,
of course.) 

Dave> IMHO, the single biggest reason why people in Japan have such a
Dave> hard time speaking English is they are trying to speak what's meant
Dave> to be read.
	EXACTLY. From a personal experience: A Canadian coed and I
were sitting at a dining room table at the campus residence dining
room (well, it is not that posh, just a cafeteria/dining room for 1000
students at the campus residence. Menus were set by nutritian[spelling
not sure]).  We were just having small talk.  I can't remeber what I
was talking about, maybe she was asking me something about Japan,
etc..  But she suddenly interrupted me and said "Gee, you sound as if
you are reading from a newspaper." I found out what prompted her to
say that was I useed passive forms often, and even "it was reported
...."  too often.  Typical journalism English, I suppose.
 Apparently I had picked up written English by reading Newsweek, and
TIME every week, Scientific American, Life, Readers Digest, Playboy?
every month, and of course lots of course materials, and what not.
	After this shocking incidence (well, if you are talking to a
lovely coed, and she thinks you are a mouth piece for a louzy
newspaper, what do you describe otherwise?), I took care to pick up
conversational English by reading more lighter material, or books in
which there are lively conversations.  (Nowadays, I even try to watch
popular TV made in U.S.A. such as LA LAW, Moolighting, with the
original sound track my TV/VCR combination produces.), 
If I can give a young English learner a tip, try learning conversational
English by reading books in which there are many conversations. What
do you think of my advice?

[my mention of reginal difference deep and students ought to
be made aware of that.]

Dave> Yes, excatly. And it even goes further than that, I think. Each
Dave> local group of communcators develops there own communly used
Dave> expressions so to be able to communicate (not be "correct", whatever
Dave> that is :-) I think you need to listen to what people are saying for
Dave> a while to pick up on which way the wind is blowing. 
	It is true. I don't know if you were in North America when the
phrase such as "swell" or even "dynamite" was kind of hip. These
phrases if we hear it on old TV program or movie today really tells us
the age of the program. So it is where/with whom/when of vocabulary.

>be as universal as English (despite all those Gaulic(?) French
>purists).  The use of French in Vietnam and other countries in the
>South East Asia clearly shows that French could be learned and used
>well by the local population (just like English). When there is a
>compelling reason to learn a foreign language, people will.

Dave> Perhaps. But which came first, the language or the colonies? 

Dave> While French can certainly be learned by non-natives, there is a
Dave> great deal of work done to keep French *pure*. Only last year I read
Dave> where they had finally decided that it was "le hotdog" and not "la
Dave> hotdog". 
This is why I said "despite all those Gaulic(?) French purists".
Looks to me young French really don't care much. I doubt if the people
who speak/spoke French in, say, Vietnam care what these purists would
think. 

Dave>American Indian (Manhattan, Los Angeles),
Are you sure that "Los Angeles" is from Native American? Looks very
Spanish to me. 

>>	If it had been French Army that occupied Japan after the
>>Second World War, young people today might be hanging in a road-side
>>cafe instead of at MacDonald. Just kidding.

Dave> Sure. And if Japan had one the war, young people in L.A. would be
Dave> sitting around drinking Kirin and saying "unbili!" (which I just
Dave> learned yesterday is slang for "unbelievable!" :-)

I hope "unbili" is an ephemeral existence. I had to re-read your
explanation to understand it. I know that foreigners in Japan find it
difficult to cope with the shortened form of many words and phrases,
which the Japanese seems to like. "Pasokon" for personal computer, for
one. But, "unbili" is "unbili".


--
------------------------------------------------------------------
    Chiaki Ishikawa                       Phone:+81-3-5702-0351
  Personal Media Corp.                      FAX:+81-3-5702-0359
 MY Bldg, 1-7-7 Hiratsuka,   UUNET: ... uunet!pmcgw!ishikawa, or
 Shinagawa-ku, Tokyo 142                ishikawa%pmcgw@uunet.uu.net
        JAPAN                JUNET:     ishikawa@personal-media.co.jp
------------------------------------------------------------------