From: muehlhau@en.ecn.purdue.edu (John Muehlhausen)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: LDS response to John Meulhausen (part 1 of 2)
Date: 14 Apr 92 15:22:23 GMT
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network

In article <1992Apr14.043303.8171@hellgate.utah.edu> jwindley%asylum.utah.edu@cs.utah.edu (Jay Windley) writes:
>|He does not dwell in the heart of the believer, nor is He with him at all
>|times.
>
>LDS believe that God does dwell physically in the heart of the
>believer.

Then why is this specifically mocked in the endowment?

>|The Christian God is everywhere
>
>Mormons disagree here.  God is not physically omnipresent (due to his
>nature -- on of the few cases for which the above syllogism holds in
>LDS theology), but his influence extends everywhere.  Hence, in this
>way he is omnipresent, but certainly not in the sense that is believed
>by mainstream Christianity.

Then how can He "dwell physically" in the heart of the believer?

>|he has created in His image (and in image only).
>
>"Tzelem" is best translated as "shadow," or "form," or "shape."  Most
>Bibles leave it as "image," bringing with it all the incorrect
>metaphysical connotations of the English word, which are not implied
>by the Hebrew.
>
>Mormons believe that man was created in the image of God, in a literal
>sense, as the Hebrew suggests.

Would shadow not imply lesser than?  Correct me if I am wrong, but I get the
distinct impression that each man can aspire to _be_ a god, so how can we be
created by God?  Case in point - can people make other people?  All that I
see in creative ability (divine or otherwise) limits one to creating
something less than oneself.  There is something inherently fishy (I can't put
my finger on it) about a God who can re-create himself.  Do not liken it to
human reproduction, for this is not our creative effort - merely a design of
God.  If we always existed, then how could God have created (something from
nothing) us.

This is a recurring theme in Mormonism - nothing can come from absolutely
nothing.  This is simply not true, as we engage in creating something from
absolutely nothing all the time - our thoughts.  Because our thoughts are
progressive in nature one cannot say that they are merely responses to
stimuli.  I can expound on this later if it is not clear.  Besides, don't you
just _know_ that your thoughts are wholly and uniquely yours?  A unique
creation, from nothing as it were?  This is the shadow of God which I see in
us.

>|Man
>|becomes God to save himself
>
>It is LDS doctrine that man cannot save himself.  Man is saved through
>the atonement of Christ.

And works.  You cannot deny that in Mormonism the actual method of salvation
is at least in part the responsibility of the believer.  This is enough to
show that Mormonism is _not_ Christianity, where salvation is a free gift.

>|He is not responsible for our salvation.
>
>Absolutely contrary to LDS teachings.  In LDS doctrine, Jesus Christ
>is the only road to salvation.  Anyone who has had any real experience
>with LDS teachings or scripture knows this.  All LDS scripture bears
>this out in explicit fact, and it is stated specifically in the
>endowment ceremony.

If this was the end of it I would not have as much of a problem with Mormonism.
As it stands though one must _do_ a considerable amount to be saved, which is 
simply not Christian.  

>|He is that aspect of God which is always 
>|with us and leading us in our daily walk.  
> 
>This is essentially what Mormons also believe.  

Once again how can God always be with everyone if He cannot be everywhere at 
once?!?

>After death there is a brief judgement which assigns the soul of the
>deceased to one of two worlds, one called "spirit prison," and the
>other called "paradise."  The criteria for this judgement are not
>known, so a question like "Where would [insert name here] go?" are not
>answerable in terms of LDS doctrine.  We understand that one's
>acceptance or rejection of Christ (not of Mormonism) may be grounds
>for such a judgement.  People in paradise may migrate to spirit prison
>(which, it is speculated, are actually the same world; the difference
>is solely in the perception of it, hence "hell" and "heaven" may have
>limited application) and minister to them.

So even with all that you do you do not have assurance of salvation...

>We believe Christ did precisely this between his death and
>resurrection.  (cf. 1 Pet. 3).

Watch for my post about _how_ Jesus payed for our deviant nature.

>At the final judgement, we will be judged on our works and assigned to
>one of three degrees of glory, or kingdoms, the highest of which is
>that in which God dwells.  This judgement is eternal in its scope.

And no one goes to hell.  This is nice, but God is clear (as far as the Bible
goes) that He cannot keep that which is imperfect, and one can only be made
perfect through Jesus Christ who _is_ God without any works of our own being
necessary (though fruitful).

>|In order to get in one must repeat an incantation
>|learned in their endowment (see below).
>
>Many things are required for entrance into this highest degree of
>glory, including faith in Jesus as the Redeemer and the living of a
>Christian life of love and service.

You are basically admitting here that Mormons are not Christian.


John M.
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc