From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Want facts?  "WHO RUNS THE MEDIA?  The Alarming Facts"
Organization: The Department of Redundancy Department
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 92 22:32:01 GMT

In article <1992Aug11.204847.11579@anasaz> scott@qip.UUCP (Scott Gibson) writes:
>In article <1992Aug10.235841.25334@bony1.bony.com> jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni) writes:
>>
>>Don't be silly, Scott.  In cases of violent crime, American police 
>>routinely arrest people at home in the middle of the night.
>
>I see.  So, when the suspects are "arrested" in their homes at night
>by Israeli authorities, I assume that they have their rights read to
>them?  That they are invariably permitted access to an attorney
>during questioning, if they so choose?

I am not certain of the specifics of Israeli and American law, but I
do know that, in general, Israeli law does not apply in the USA and
American law does not apply in Israel.  I presume that Israeli
authorities abide by Israeli law when performing their duties and
suffer the consequences of negligence, as well.

>>>When the situation deteriorates to the point where Israeli 
>>>forces knowingly target innocents, in the hopes of striking a
>>>disproportionately smaller number of villains, and then scold
>>>any survivors for being so stupid as to get in the way, what
>>>would you call it?
>>
>>Can you specify an incident that is similar to this in any way?
>
>Certainly.
>
>1)  The Israeli military carried out a military attack on an enemy
>    of Israel, the target of which included his family.  The nature
>    of the attack was such that no reasonable person would suggest
>    the family could have survived.  Guess what I'm talking about?

If you are talking about Moussawi, then he was the target, not his
family.  They were incidental casualties.  This is a fine point but it
is this fine point that you are discussing.  Furthermore, there was a
report that the Israelis actually screwed up here, hoping to bomb the
car of his bodyguards and capture him alive, but who knows the truth
about this?  Also, there have been others who have been assasinated
while their family members were nearby and left unharmed.  

In short, Israel intentionally targets criminal terrorists, not their
families or other bystanders.

>2)  Defenders of Israel, in this newsgroup, routinely express the
>    notion that the deaths and injuries suffered during Israeli
>    shelling of villages is somewhat the fault of the innocents,
>    since they do not see fit to either leave, or drive the
>    enemies of Israel from their midst.  For examples, peruse
>    your site's archives of this group.  In fact, I'll be sure
>    to point out the next one that comes up.  Shouldn't be long.

I believe that much the same argument was made in Desert Storm.  The
Iraqi people are not targets and only suffer because Saddam is in
their midst.  Now that the sanctions on Iraq continue, this argument
continues with it, as well.  Defenders of the UN make the same
arguments that defenders of Israel make.

>I believe that item 1 is an instance of targetting innocents in
>hopes of getting a few villains, and that item 2 refers to numerous
>occurrences of the scolding.  Feel free to disagree.

Thanks.  Item 1, as I pointed out, is erroneous.  Israel does NOT take
the callous view of "targetting innocents in hopes of getting a few
villains"; this is more like the "nuke Iraq" or "nuke Iran" approach
often heard in the US but generally ignored by American policy-makers
(thankfully).  Please recognise that designating innocents as primary
targets is a technique much more common among Arabs than among
Westerners.

>>Doesn't this tell you something about Israel's efforts at minimizing
>>collateral damage?  
>
>I didn't say that Israel made no effort to minimize collateral damage;
>I questioned whether they made _every_reasonable_effort_ to so do.

Actually, Israel makes plenty of UNreasonable efforts to minimize
collateral damage.  My brother had a number of Israeli friends who are
now all dead because they decided not to shoot at women and children.
You'd be surprised at who turns out to be a murderer among
Palestineans.  

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com               Pat Paulsen for President
American-Occupied New York                    This year he has a real chance!
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.jewish,misc.headlines