HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: farris@ruhets.rutgers.edu (Lorenzo Farris)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Alchemy
Summary: not in my science ;-)
Date: 23 Jan 93 14:02:13 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

I have had a couple of e-mail exchanges regarding the possibility of
transmutation of elements. I'll give the reader's digest version of
what I had to say here.

There is *no* process known in modern physics or chemistry whereby one
element can be transmuted into another, except in extremely minute
quantities.  These quantities can be produced by exposure to
radiation. In particular, there is *no* known chemical process, at
all, that could do this.

Please do not take this as a statement that I don't believe the
transmutation is possible. Rather, for anyone that thinks they can
find a basis in modern science, I wish to point out that it has a way
to go before it could give the stated results of the literal
interpretation of western alchemical texts.

If anyone does manage to achieve this, besides all the other perks,
one could have lasting fame and a nobel prize as well. ;-)

		your friendly neighborhood nuclear physicist,
			Lorenzo
-- 
Happiness is just a                     ******************************
remembrance away.                       *  Lorenzo Farris            *
                                        *  farris@ruhets.rutgers.edu *
                                        ******************************
From: cranmer@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: ritual in lucid dreams
Date: 27 Jan 93 00:54:15 GMT
Organization: The Ohio State University, Department of Physics

Hello,

mist@lynx.dac.northeastern.edu (Paul Timmins) writes...

> Hrm, I understand, my mind is very hectic, visualization does not
> come easily to me. Well, I can visualize dimensions, and geometric
> shapes <2d through 4d>, but trying to visualize a blank white wall kills
                    ^^^^
> me. Its a matter of conditioning. If you put the concentration into it,
> visualization comes. At least, in theory.

Let's get this straight:  you can visualize geometric shapes with four
spatial dimensions.  *Not* just their projections in 3D space, but all
four dimensions at once.  Please, if you can, tell us how you do this,
and how one can train ones inherently 3D mind to do this at will.
Do these visions come in 'altered' states of consciousness, which are
naturally much more slippery if one tries to describe them ??

And let's all remember, from the 'empathic defenses' thread a few months
ago -- the *visual* sense is just one out of five!  For many people,
visualization may not be the best path - try audization, olfactorization,
or even tactilization!  :-)

Steve Cranmer
From: joshua@cpac.washington.edu (Joshua Geller)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: alchemy (was: Re: Dracula the Alchemist)
Date: 21 Jan 93 22:51:28 GMT
Organization: Institute for the Study of Ancient Science
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: bailey.cpac.washington.edu
In-reply-to: cal@otter.hpl.hp.com's message of Thu, 21 Jan 1993 18:13:57 GMT


In article <83950164@otter.hpl.hp.com> cal@otter.hpl.hp.com (Colin Low) 
writes:

>   The chemical behaviour of elements is determined by their electron shells.
>   Mercury and gold are adjacent on the periodic table, and despite the huge
>   difference in properties they differ by only one (1) electron, and because
>   the nucleus is in one is more positive than the other, by a difference in 
>   energy levels etc. This isn't a *huge* difference - we aren't talking 
>  about chalk and cheese here. I wouldn't categorically rule out the 
>  possibility of a doping substance which (in the manner of semiconductor 
>  doping) mops up free electrons or otherwise changes the band structure to 
>  give a result which is chemically *very close* to gold. Not identical, but 
>  close enough to fool a < 1900 AD chemist. 

this is a seductive idea; Ia lwys thought, though, that the properties of an
element were caused by their nuclear makeup (deuterium, for instance, 
behaves more like hydrogen than it does like helium).

the person who helped me out with a lot of this was, BTW, by profession
an electrical engineer type or something like that. he seemed to think
that the change was nuclear in nature. 

josh
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe)
Subject: Re: Berkeley OTO and Wicca
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 21:38:11 GMT

ashton@netcom.com (ashton) writes:

>A really nice piece of work on the origins of Witchcraft is
>_Crafting the Art of Magic: A History of Modern Witchcraft 1939-1964_
>Aidan Kelly, Llewellyn, 1991.

Unfortunately, Kelly can't be trusted, since it is clear that he has written 
this book to grind an axe.  He extracts pieces from Gardner's writings, 
"reconstructs" what Gardner would have written there if he has written it all
out, and then uses the results to "prove" what he already decided was true.
This doesn't mean that there is nothing valuable in Kelly's research, but it
does cast a shadow on a great deal of it.  *sigh*  When will someone just 
publish the text of the BAM and other documents so we can just read them for
ourselves! :(

Enjoy the journey!
                      --Br'anArthur
                                      Queer, Peculiar, and Wyrd! :-)

******************************************************************************
"We are secretly replacing the fine quartz crystals this medicine pouch maker
usually uses with Folgers crystals.  Let's see what happens...."
                                      --DACCrowell
From: joshua@cpac.washington.edu (Joshua Geller)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Alchemy
Date: 23 Jan 93 13:17:37 GMT
Organization: Institute for the Study of Ancient Science
Distribution: world
	<74176@cup.portal.com> <C1ADL1.JB8@acsu.buffalo.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bailey.cpac.washington.edu
In-reply-to: oispeggy@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu's message of 23 Jan 93 02:59:00 GMT


In article <C1ADL1.JB8@acsu.buffalo.edu> oispeggy@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (Peggy
Brown) writes:

>   Disclaimer:  I don't know anything about alchemy.  I know a 
>   little about the alchemical tradition, from reading one book, 
>   which I was told is a worthless one.

let me expand on that; sadoul's treatment of the alchemical process
is almost worthless. his treatment of the historical tradition is
workmanlike, though marred by his refusal to document his sources.
he is also very, very french (and I say that as a francophile).

[and in response to much taginage]

>   I didn't "not answer" for stragegic purposes.  Practicing verbal 
>   gymnastics and "winning" arguments does not interest me.

a hit! a palpable hit!

>   I'd rather see you jump into the abyss and try taking your 
>   Scientific Method (TSM) with you as a parachute.  Then maybe 
>   you'd quit taking such shit so seriously. 

and another!

josh
From: Thyagi@cup.portal.com (Thyagi Morgoth NagaSiva)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Divination Web
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 93 12:59:21 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world

93!01.26 e.v.


Rev. Bell writes:

Hey, Thyagi!  How about an IP number for soar.cs.cmu.edu?  I can't
find it with nslookup and my nameserver is nonexistent, with the way I
get around cyberspace?  How about helping us name-impaired folks?


Response:

First, it really isn't 'my' MUCK.  It is owned and operated
by Moonchilde (JTraub).  He has been kind enough to let me
do some of the building there and exercise some of my creative
talents alongside his own.


The address is as follows:

(Word): seismo.soar.cs.cmu.edu 9393

(Number): 128.2.206.138 9393


The MUCK is open to the public and dedicated to networking and experiment
in magick, cyber ritual, magical religions, and most other 'occult' or
'esoteric' pursuits.

The primary screen should tell you alot.  Once you connect, type 'help'
to get the basic commands to navigate, communicate and orient.  You can
page me or Moonchilde and find out more and we might even be around (type
WHO to discover this).  Good luck!


Email me for additional information at Thyagi@HouseOfKAos.Abyss.com :>

Thyagi
From: joshua@cpac.washington.edu (Joshua Geller)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: alchemy (was:  Re: Dracula the Alchemist)
Date: 21 Jan 93 08:55:11 GMT
Organization: Institute for the Study of Ancient Science
Distribution: world
	<1993Jan18.222515.405@news.uwyo.edu> <C16CFC.I6H@HQ.Ileaf.COM>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bailey.cpac.washington.edu
In-reply-to: rap@HQ.Ileaf.COM's message of Wed, 20 Jan 1993 22:42:48 GMT


In article <C16CFC.I6H@HQ.Ileaf.COM> rap@HQ.Ileaf.COM (Roger Powell) writes:

>   It certainly strikes me as physically _possible_ that the lead generally
>   available to the Alchemist routinely contained a small amount of gold as 
>   an impurity, 

projection (the actual trnsmutation into gold (or sometimes silver) is
most often described as being performed upon mercury (glance at the periodic
table of the elements sometime)-- one of the few instances in alchemical
literature where the word 'mercury' means the liquid metallic element
'Hg'. it is described, at least occasionally, as being performed upon
just about every other metal imginable; lead, copper, iron, alloys like
brass and pewter, even silver is described as being trnsmuted into gold.

>>            and that the alchemical processes of transmutation were actually
>   slow-acting, highly efficient refinement techniques, rather than the 
>   nuclear transmutations we think of today. As I understand it, even 
>   extracting a very small amount of gold from a large-ish mass of lead 
>   would be an alchemically satisfactory result. Quantity seems not to have 
>   been the point.

the process is described on many occasions, by people supposedto have
been eyewitnesses, roughly as follows: mercury is heated in a crucible
until it gives off a crackling sound. a bit of the stone is thrown into
the metal, which remins in the heat. a black smoke goes up, acompanied 
by loud noises. after a short period of time (15 minutes or a half hour),
the metal is taken out and seen to be gold. there are varitions; sometimes
projection is mde on a piece of solid metal. there are some interesting
cases from 17th and 18th century europe, where a bi of the stone is given
to someone, who carries out the projection outside the presence of the 
alchemist.

>   This one I can't really see. The thing is, life extension is perceived as
>   such a highly desirable goal that even the *suggestion* that it might be
>   possible would be sufficient to keep people searching for it indefinitely,
>   even without any tangible evidence. I'm not ready to rule it out as a
>   possibility, but I have to classify it as "highly improbable"; Josh, if
>   you can prove me wrong, drop a note to my grandkids, would you?

hey, I'm skepticl about all of it. that means I am reserving my opinion.

josh
From: ladislas@sobeco.com (Ladislas A.)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Alchemy
Date: 24 Jan 93 08:55:29 GMT
Organization: Sobeco Ernst & Young

In <JOSHUA.93Jan23051737@bailey.cpac.washington.edu> joshua@cpac.washington.edu (Joshua Geller) writes:

Responding to Peggy Brown, Josh writes:

>let me expand on that; sadoul's treatment of the alchemical process
>is almost worthless. his treatment of the historical tradition is
>workmanlike, though marred by his refusal to document his sources.
>he is also very, very french (and I say that as a francophile).

I agree with you (though it is I who uses his book) that J. Sadoul is not
the best author to look for if you want to know about the alchemical
process.  He doesn't strike me as an Adept going all out to teach the Art.
But from reading the trilogy he wrote, I wouldn't be surprised if he knew
more than he's willing to share.

I bring up his book often because he has quoted a lot from other sources.
And, aside from an interesting/confusing book, _Oubah_ by Jacques Breyer,
Sadoul's book is the only one in my possession at the moment.

He seems to favor Philalethes over others.  In the last chapter of his
book _Le_Tresor_Des_Alchimistes_, he describes the three parts of the Magister
as he understands it.  The first part is taken mainly from the _Mutus_Liber_.
The second part is quoted from Cyliani's _Hermes_Devoile_ (Hermes unveiled).
The third part is taken from Philalethes' _L'Entre_Ouverte_Au_Palais_Ferme_Du_
Roi_ (translate this as you see fit!), starting at chapter 23.

He also gives a list of minerals that might be the famed Materia Prima.  Though
he himself admits that there's no garantee you'll find the right one in the
list.

He also included a bibliography (quite complete) and a glossary of terms.  If
requested, I'll take some time to post the bibliography (alas, mostly french
and latin books) and to translate (to the best of my capabilities) the glossary.

>josh

Ladislas.
From: ladislas@sobeco.com (Ladislas A.)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: alchemy (was: Re: Dracula the Alchemist)
Date: 23 Jan 93 09:30:45 GMT
Organization: Sobeco Ernst & Young

In <JOSHUA.93Jan21144500@bailey.cpac.washington.edu> joshua@cpac.washington.edu (Joshua Geller) writes:

>the western literature is fairly explicit about this: the physical life
>is what is being extended. there are even said to be two forms of this.
>in one, the adept (who, curiously, all seem to be male; if anyone knows
>of a tradition of an immortal female adept they should please inform me)
>is seemingly 50 years old or so indefinitely. in the other, the adept
>allows himself to age until he's 70 or so, and then reduces his apparent
>age to 20 or so. this process involves the hair and teeth falling out
>and regrowing and the body going through sort of a metamorphosis in the
>space of a couple three weeks.

>josh

The only woman-alchemist I know of is Marie La Juive (Mary the Jew).  She
lived in Alexandria in the IV century A.D.

As for the Adept's process of 'transmutation', it's as I have read it.
A story exists concerning the process, though it's more myth than observed
fact.  It comes from Nicolas Flamel's story.  The story is about an apoticary
and a friend who find a strange whiteish powder.  The friend takes a spoonfull
and dies.  The apoticary, having taken only a tiny grain, becomes prey to an
intense fever, looses hair, teeth and nails.  As soon as the fever breaks,
he begins growing back his hair and the rest.  He looks younger and healthier.

Ladislas.
Newsgroups: alt.magick

[with reference to opinions as to whether it might be possible to carry out
transmution of mercury into gold]

The chemical behaviour of elements is determined by their electron shells.
Mercury and gold are adjacent on the periodic table, and despite the huge
difference in properties they differ by only one (1) electron, and because
the nucleus is in one is more positive than the other, by a difference in 
energy levels etc. This isn't a *huge* difference - we aren't talking about 
chalk and cheese here. I wouldn't categorically rule out the possibility of a 
doping substance which (in the manner of semiconductor doping) mops up free
electrons or otherwise changes the band structure to give a result which
is chemically *very close* to gold. Not identical, but close enough to
fool a < 1900 AD chemist. What about high-temperature superconductors - 
nobody thinking about Cooper pairs etc. would have guessed that sticking
a few rare earth metals together would do the job. Mercury is a strange
metal in any case and forms amalgalms like wot I've got in my teeth - there
might just be some weird multi-component amalgalm which is chemically
similar to gold, and dropping a small quantity of "the stone" onto mercury
("projection") sounds a lot like doping to me.

I wager there are physical chemists out there who dream about Fermi levels
and who are going to leave me looking like Yeat's "tattered coat upon
a stick" by the time they finish with my idea. Ah, the Tragedy of Science:
a beautiful elegant Theory ruined by the violence of a crude, ill-bred,
ill-mannered, and thoroughly incorrigible Fact. 

How sad :-(

Colin  

  
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe)
Subject: Re: ritual in lucid dreams
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 21:27:19 GMT

markk@cypress.West.Sun.COM (Mark Allen Kampe) writes:

>As others have suggested, the key here is dedication to the practice and
>to the results of the practice.
> 
While I am certainly not of the "visualisation is the key to all magic" school,
I agree completely with this statement.  This applies to *all* styles of magic.

Enjoy the journey!
                      --Br'anArthur
                                      Queer, Peculiar, and Wyrd! :-)

******************************************************************************
"We are secretly replacing the fine quartz crystals this medicine pouch maker
usually uses with Folgers crystals.  Let's see what happens...."
                                      --DACCrowell
From: farris@ruhets.rutgers.edu (Lorenzo Farris)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Doping Mercury
Date: 28 Jan 93 15:54:50 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

In article <83950165@otter.hpl.hp.com>, cal@otter.hpl.hp.com (Colin Low) writes:
> I had hoped for a slightly more searching criticism of my idea than
> the observation that if you take away 1 electron from every atom
> in a litre of mercury you end up with the most highly charged object
> in the universe.

My apologies. I am a physicist, but not a chemical physicist. But to
return to your thesis on electronic property:

The origins of the chemical properties of element does in fact lie in
the electronic structure. The reason that the electrical properties of
Hg and Au are so different lie in the fact that the relevant electron
shell is filled in Hg, and is not in Au. That is also the reason for
large jumps in properties from element to element. The electrons
occupy 'shells'. The valence shell, or the one which determines
chemical properties, is the important one. Without going into an
extended dissertation of atomic and chemical physics, there is an
understanding of the origins of chemical properties of the elements
and simple molecules. Complex compounds I can't really talk about. I
don't think we understand why High Tc superconductors do what they do
yet. 

So, as I have said, I don't discount, except what we have measured and
tested. My rant on the properties of 5 gm of singly ionized Mercury
was in response to a direct question to that effect. I think any one
that wants to pursue this on a sound footing should really spend some
time learning the relevant physics and chemistry, in addition to
learning how to interpret arcane texts. In that way s/he will be in a
reasonable position to intelligently discuss hir findings.

I think it is worthwhile to explore, I just want to help keep it
clean.

			cheers,
				Lorenzo
-- 
Happiness is just a                     ******************************
remembrance away.                       *  Lorenzo Farris            *
                                        *  farris@ruhets.rutgers.edu *
                                        ******************************
From: rtravsky@news.uwyo.edu (Rich Travsky)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: alchemy (was:  Re: Dracula the Alchemist)
Date: 21 Jan 93 15:26:14 GMT
Organization: Banzai Institute

In article <C16CFC.I6H@HQ.Ileaf.COM>, rap@HQ.Ileaf.COM (Roger Powell) writes:
> 
> Some thoughts on the nature of alchemy:
> 
>[...]
>
> Life extension:
> 
> This one I can't really see. The thing is, life extension is perceived as

I suppose the thing to do here is try and decide just what is it whose life
is being extended: the physical body, or something incoporeal. I've read
some stories about Chinese immortals who appear to have done a bit of both
(Secret of the Golden Flower and all that). As to what the westerns thought,
that's a bit more muddled. Any more if I think of alchemy, I think of the
slants given it by Crowley...

> [...]

Rich Travsky   rtravsky@uwyo.edu
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe)
Subject: visualisation <was: Re: ritual in lucid dreams>
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 21:23:19 GMT

nancyp@techbook.com (Nancy Parsons) writes:

>My nephew asked me once to "teach him some magic".  So I gave him an
>exercise guaranteed to make him capable of performing any magic he
>wanted.  I told him to pick an interesting-looking object, and 
>observe it in the most concentrated fashion of which he was capable,
>then close his eyes and try to visualize it.  When he was able to
>see the object as well with his mind as with his eyes, I said, I would
>give him another exercise.  You gotta start 'em out right ... 8-)

Hm, this is a bit of a pet peeve of mine.  Not all styles of magic uses 
visualisation.  I remember when a friend of mine was so bad at visualisation
that she couldn't recognise her own lovers by sight.  She had to hear their
voices.  Still, she could sing down thunderstorms.

There are some magical abilities/styles that visualisation does absolutely 
nothing for.  It may well be that your nephew learning visualisation could
then learn everything *you* have to teach.  However, it might be that you
can't teach him what *he* would do best.

This is not an attack, just a reminder that we all tend to expect other people
to experience magic the way we do.  They won't, necessarily.  One of my
students was around magical folk--including during working situations!--for
over a year before I met her in RL.  She had *never* experienced anything from
what they were doing, so she concluded that she had no magical talents 
whatsoever.  Now, I, since I am firmly convinced that *everyone* has magical
talents, tried a variety of things around her, to see what things she would
be aware of.  It took less than 24 hours to find something that she could
sorta feel.  From there, we branched out until we found stuff which really
worked for her.  This was August of 92--now she is happily exploring *her* 
kind of magic.  It is what I call wych-craft, the class within Naturalism
which focuses on herbal brews, charms, etc.  It is *not* a type of magic
that I am capable of, but I was still able to put her on the path by using
*her* as the measuring stick rather than myself.

Please, let's all try to be open to the vast variety of magic that is in the
world.  We don't need to individually do it all (nor could we if we tried!),
but valuing the diversity will create a broader, more effective community than
training people to be "like us" can ever do.

Enjoy the journey!
                      --Br'anArthur
                                      Queer, Peculiar, and Wyrd! :-)

******************************************************************************
"We are secretly replacing the fine quartz crystals this medicine pouch maker
usually uses with Folgers crystals.  Let's see what happens...."
                                      --DACCrowell