From: Tim@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Tim)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Heraldic questions...
Date: 6 Jan 93 14:56:19 GMT


    Arval wrote:

 JM> > The point is that the "scope of the Society" covers a lot of time and a
 JM> > lot of area. If we try to "re-create" all of that all at once, then the
 JM> > resulting mishmash is nothing ever found in period, and so the
 JM> > underlying objective is not attained.

 JM> What "underlying objective"?  Looking at Corpora and the Bylaws, we
 JM> find that the objective of the SCA is to create "an environment which
 JM> evokes the atmosphere of the Middle Ages and Renaissance" (Corpora
 JM> II.A), to promote "research and re-creation in the field of
 JM> pre-17th-century Western culture" (Bylaws III).

 Exactly - THAT objective.

 A cultural mishmash that would never have appeared at any time or place in
 period is not "research and re-creation in the field of pre-17th-century
 Western culture", nor does it "create an environment which evokes the
 atmosphere of the Middle Ages and Renaissance".

 It does, of course, create an environment which evoke the atmosphere of a
 fantasy novel that might be *loosely based* on the Middle Ages and
 Renaissance, or a similar movie, but that's not what it SAYS -- nor, I
 maintain, what it MEANS.

 "The Princess Bride" comes closer to the real Middle Ages than what we do.
 I remember remarking to Baron Master Robin of Gilwell during the scene
 when the 'new princess' was introduced to 'the people', "Oh, look, it's
 just like an event - except that everyone's in garb." I think he stopped
 breathing momentarily; I know for a fact that part of the Coke he was
 drinking came out his nose....

 JM> It would seem that the objective you have in mind is considerably
 JM> stricter than the objective corporation has in mind.

 Putting aside the assumption that "what Corpora says" is "the objective
 [the] corporation has in mind", it would plainly appear that the objective
 *you* have in mind is considerably *looser* than what Corpora states (and,
 presumably, what the "corporation has in mind").

 JM> > The people who got together to hold the first backyard tournament
 JM> > didn't get together to hold a multicultural medieval Disneyland,
 JM> > they got together to hold an Arthurian-romance tournament, and
 JM> > there is going to be any consistency in the SCA that is the sort of
 JM> > focus that is essential.

 JM> Which of course brings us back to the question I ask a few days ago:
 JM> Why is consistency a virtue, and where do you derive the notion that
 JM> any medieval heraldic system was consistent in any meaningful sense?

 Which of course brings us back to the answer I made a few days ago, that
 without consistency we wind up (a) with a mishmash that never appeared
 anywhere in period, and so doesn't re-create the Middle Ages and
 Renaissance "in any meaningful sense", and (b) deludes people into
 thinking that the Middle Ages and Renaissance was some sort of cultural
 potpourri in which a Ninja Viking Crusader is perfectly reasonable, and in
 that sense actually *degrades* people's appreciation of the *real* Middle
 Ages and Renaissance. What we do may be cute, and it may be fun, but it is
 *not* "re-creating the Middle Ages and Renaissance" and hence not in line
 with the objectives of the corporation, as set forth in Corpora, which you
 have so ably quoted for us above.

 The very fact that we can identify certain practices as "common" or
 "uncommon" in "[X-nationality] heraldry" indicates a sufficient degree of
 consistency to fit my requirements for "any meaningful sense". That's all
 the consistency I require (although not as much as I would *like*, but
 that's another story), and pretty much all the consistency that the CoA
 requires as well. Judging from past commentary on the subject, the
 consensus of past and present members of the CoA seems to be that, if we
 could ensure that those who register "Hungarian armory" or "Polish armory"
 or "Lower Slobbovian armory" wouldn't wind up changing his or her persona
 to Brian Vladimir Yamaguchi the Ninja Viking Crusader the following week,
 we'd be happy to registere any "regional style" that someone could come up
 with. We can't, so we won't. The College of Arms is the last bastion
 (well, speed bump, maybe...) between the SCA and a potential for terminal
 silliness that boggles the mind.

 JM> I do hope that you aren't proposing that the formal goal of the SCA is
 JM> to be consistent with Arthurian romance.

 That would certainly be more in line with what the founders of the SCA had
 in mind (from what I understand from overhearing random rumblings from the
 Old Farts I've had a chance to listen to), and fairly much in line with
 the people who buy the "chivalry preserved in an unchivalrous world"
 fable.

 But no, I'm not advocating that; just because an organization started out
 silly doesn't mean it has to stay silly forever. I'm just encouraging
 people to be less silly as the years go by. Sometimes it works better than
 others.

    Tadhg, Obelisk


 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca