From: bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: israel vs. world
Date: 19 Dec 1992 19:01:58 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: thor.ins.cwru.edu


Wayne McGuire writes...

#To Mark Ira Kaufman
#
# MIK> The concept of human rights is one that should apply to
# MIK> people universally.  Furthermore, if one considers
# MIK> deporting a person to be worse than murdering a person, one
# MIK> has a distorted view of the severity of these to actions.
#
#The entire world has condemned the Israeli deportations,
#including the U.S., and including both George Bush on the
#Republican side and Bill Clinton on the Democratic side.

    The entire world remained SILENT when Toledano was stabbed to
    death.  At least the deportees have the right to appeal their
    deportations.  What right of appeal was given to Toledano?  I
    should mention that Toledano is only one of numerous Israelis 
    who have been murdered by Arabs in recent weeks, for no other 
    reason than they were Jews.  


#The Security Council vote in the UN condemning the deportations
#was unanimous.

    If this organization can say NOTHING about the kidnapping and
    savage murder of an innocent man, what does condemnation of a
    deportation of those that support such murders mean?  If some
    condemnation of the murder of Toledano by Hamas had come from
    the UN, I might believe that they are people of principle.


#But here you are serving as an apologist for the deportations,
#which comes as no surprise on the heels of your defense of
#Jabotinsky's flaming Jewish racism.

    I have NOT supported the deportations.  I merely discussed an
    atrocity that triggered the deportations.  They were not just
    a whim on the part of the Israeli government.  Maybe if HAMAS
    was not a pack of homicidal maniacs, they would not have been
    deported.  After all, the people that were deported had taken
    an oath to kill any Jew, whenever the opportunity arose.

    And as for Jabotinsky and the "racism" that you accuse him of 
    constantly, would you please post a quote by him, in which he
    attacks ANY other group?  Do you think that if you repeat the 
    lie often enough, that it will magically become true???  Your
    problem is that you are so blinded by bigotry that you cannot
    comprehend the most basic ideas of prejudice.  Jabotinsky was
    NOT a racist.  He NEVER spoke racially against another group.
    You are lying again.  Why do you continue to do this?


#The current situation is a classic example of what I was talking
#about a few days ago, before this crisis erupted: 

    And how exactly DID this crisis erupt?  Is the kidnapping and
    murder of innocent Jews not something that you choose to have
    added to the scenario?  
    

#                                                ... diaspora Jews
#are increasingly put in the untenable position of trying to
#defend Israeli policies which the entire world condemns. It is an
#impossible exercise to conduct without looking ridiculous.
#Witness, for instance, the strained and bizarre interpretation by
#another user here of the Geneva Convention policy concerning
#deportation from occupied territories. The entire community of
#international legal experts--with the exception of some
#pro-Israel militants among them--would laugh in his face.
#
#Your expressed concern about universal human rights is also
#laughable. If there were any substance to this, and it weren't
#merely posturing on your part, you would advocate the deportation
#of Jewish terrorists from Israel. 

    I never advocated it.  I put it in the context of the violent
    murders that triggered the deportations.  And as for what any
    Jewish terrorists deserve, I would toss ANY terrorist in jail
    for as long as they deserved.  I don't care if they're Jewish
    or not.  A terrorist is a terrorist.  If a Jew kidnapped some
    innocent Palestinian, bound him, and stabbed him to death, he
    should be locked up for the rest of his natural life, just as
    the Arabs who killed Toledano deserve.  



                                   But you don't, and neither does
#Benjamin Netanyahu. In fact many and perhaps all of the Jewish
#terrorists who engaged in such acts as planting bombs at the
#homes of West Bank Palestinian mayors (an act which your hero
#Jonathan Pollard obscenely praised) served relatively brief
#prison terms and are now walking the streets.

    You're lying again.  Pollard is not my hero.  He was never my 
    hero.  He is a criminal.  I have always maintained that he is
    a criminal.  Please try to sticking to the truth.  Exchanging
    ideas and information would be expedited, and your reputation
    as a liar might start to dissolve.


#What could explain the fact that the entire world is lined up
#against Israel? Why anti-Semitism, of course! Nearly the entire
#world, including the American president and president-elect,
#consists of depraved anti-Semites. Why are they anti-Semites?
#Innate God-implanted depravity, I presume.

    I cannot speak for the world.  I can only observe.  The world
    remains silent when innocent Jews are murdered.  Israel chose
    to respond to this murder in a non-lethal manner.  I am not a
    wise enough person to explain why a non-lethal response to an
    atrocity, such as a kidnapping and murder of an innocent man,
    commands such scorn.  I can only guess why some people regard 
    expelling terrorists and murderers is worse than murdering an 
    innocent man. 
    
    I do not believe that the world knows about the nature of the
    terrorist group HAMAS.  They are sworn to kill Jews.  They do
    not care if the Jews are soldiers or police.  They have sworn
    that they will kill ANY Jews anywhere in Israel.

    Also, the deportations are NOT permanent.  They are for about
    two years.  Furthermore, a deportee may file an appeal within 
    sixty days.  In the meantime, they will have to reside in one 
    of the refugee camps in Lebanon or Jordan.  Even in the worst
    possible case, the deportees have a better chance for justice
    than was given Toledano!
    
    The idea of having to live in any of the refugee camps in the
    region is appaling.  But that is not the fault of Israel.  If
    the nations who maintain these camps had any concerns for the
    welfare of those who had to live in them, the residents would
    not have to exist in the squaller that is being maintained by
    their so-called Arab brothers.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast