HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jtn@nutter.cs.vt.edu (Terry Nutter)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Smelly steel wagons at Pennsic
Date: 27 Aug 92 22:07:55 GMT
Followup-To: SCA
Organization: SCA

Greetings, all, from Angharad.  Charles the clerk recently wrote of the
nuisance of cars at Pennsic, and suggested as a solution:

>With a gate at the right place, a fee of, say, $5 could be charged to
>every vehicle entering the camping area.  (This year, a car had to go
>through one end of the camping area to get off of the parking hill, but
>a different arrangement would allow cars to run to town and back for
>free, as long as they did not enter the camping area.)  Special
>arrangements could be made for merchants and other special cases.  This
>would encourage people to only drive into the camping area when they
>arrived and when they left.
>
>Combined with a more serious towing effort, and a few commercially
>minded youths with pull-carts, we might be able to reduce one of the
>worst eyesores at Pennsic.

There were unquestionably far more cars around camps this year than 
there was any need or excuse for, and they were often a pain to everyone 
who was _not_ busily breaking the rules.  Still, I had about five rapid 
responses to this -- what about initial unloading? what about ferrying 
folks from the airport or bus station? etc. -- which finally stabilized 
into something else.

It seems to me that the more we make rules with nasty penalties, the more
folks take the attitude that they'll do what they darned well please, and
to heck with the lot of you.  How about instead pointing out clearly exactly
why cars are a bad thing on sight, how their presence harms others, and then
making keeping your car in the lot except when really necessary a matter, 
not of laws and enforcement, but of honor and repute?  Many of us know who
the worst offenders were.  If they were viewed as (medievally) lacking in
honor, rather than as (mundanely) evading a regulation, perhaps they might
have more reason to comply.

For instance: suppose you are faced with offending royalty.  It's hard to 
tow the King's car.  It's a whole lot easier to let His Majesty understand 
that he will be on the throne at most six months, and may not want to be 
known as an honorless churl by some eight thousand people for some five 
years or so after he gets down....

What about Courts of Chivalry for those who refuse to honor site restrictions, 
as violating the terms of agreement on which they are present?

We _do_ care about our honor, don't we?  In many cases, more than about
whether we (mundanely) obey the (mundane) rules?

Laws aren't particularly effective, and never were.  The balance of opinion,
on the other hand, can be a _very_ potent mechanism.

In Service to the Society,

-- Angharad/Terry
From: conib@peri.gvg.tek.com (Coni Britten)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Ps & Qs; Thees & Thous
Date: 28 Aug 92 19:50:57 GMT
Organization: Grass Valley Group, Grass Valley, CA

In article <CANTON.92Aug27194629@robinson.ilog.fr> canton@robinson.ilog.fr (Eric Canton) writes:
->
->Gwydden wrote :
->>Was this really period practice, other than in the King James bible?
->>I never did understand why God didn't get "you"'d by all-- if a king of
->>flesh and blood was worth of being a "you", how much more so God?

->
->Coni Britten answered :
->
->>I suppose it's because you would "thee/thou" your father so therefore
->>you thee/thou your Father.  :-)

->
->Anton precised :
->
->>In French, at least, conservative people often don't "thou" their parents.

->
->That's true, although you have to be from a very conservative family
->nowadays to "you" your parents. This was not the case one or two generations
->before us. 
->The same applies to how one addresses God. It's fairly recently that, in
->french prayers, God is "tu" (thou) and not "vous" (you). I think it's since
->Vatican II (but wouldn't bet). Traditionnalists still say "vous", I think.


So the Germans have traditionally had a more familiar relationship with their
parents and their gods than the French?  Interesting ... and possibly could
explain quite a bit about their respective "cultures" ... however, I'm an
engineer, not a sociologist ...

:-)


Konstanza v.B.
From: canton@robinson.ilog.fr (Eric Canton)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Ps & Qs; Thees & Thous
Date: 27 Aug 92 17:46:29 GMT
	<Bt1rA5.JA7@well.sf.ca.us>
Organization: ILOG S.A., Gentilly, France
In-reply-to: dasher@well.sf.ca.us's message of 15 Aug 92 22:46:53 GMT


Gwydden wrote :

>Was this really period practice, other than in the King James bible?
>I never did understand why God didn't get "you"'d by all-- if a king of
>flesh and blood was worth of being a "you", how much more so God?


Coni Britten answered :

>I suppose it's because you would "thee/thou" your father so therefore
>you thee/thou your Father.  :-)

Anton precised :

>In French, at least, conservative people often don't "thou" their parents.
>
>(French, by the way, has a pair of regular verbs for using one or the other
>mode of address:  TUTOYE(R) and VOUVOYE(R).)

That's true, although you have to be from a very conservative family
nowadays to "you" your parents. This was not the case one or two generations
before us. 
The same applies to how one addresses God. It's fairly recently that, in french
prayers, God is "tu" (thou) and not "vous" (you). I think it's since Vatican II
(but wouldn't bet). Traditionnalists still say "vous", I think.

Claude de Montcastel.

Eric CANTON                   | Qui Deus a dune' escie"nce         Marie
SCA : Claude de Montcastel    | e de parler bone eloquence          de
Organization : ILOG (Paris)   | ne s'en deit taisir ne celer       France
e-mail       : canton@ilog.fr | ainz se deit voluntiers mustrer. 
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: aryk@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (A.J.S. Nusbacher)
Subject: Re: Multiple titles (was Edward Zifran of Gendy)
Organization: University of Toronto -- Hart House
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 20:19:47 GMT

In article <1992Aug31.181137.14182@watson.ibm.com> mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman) writes:

>At the risk of sounding unbearably stuffy, I'd like to point out that
>stringing multiple titles before a name...
>
>> Viscount Viscount Viscount Viscount Sir Sir Master Master Edward, 
>
>...is an incorrect practice ....

Of course, the way people indicated multiple awards in the Middle Ages was
by stringing the initials of the orders after their names, right?

\8-)

I mean, that's gotta be authentic, it's specified in so many kingdoms' laws!

Aryk Nusbacher
From: zebee@ucs.adelaide.edu.au (Zebee Johnstone)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: bunny round and other weird words
Date: 27 Aug 92 00:40:59 GMT
Organization: Information Technology Division, The University of Adelaide, AUSTRALIA

My housemate is doing an English essay on jargon in sport, so wants
to look at fighters jargon in the SCA.
  
He would like to know about the derivation of particular words, and
whther they are local or SCA wide.
  
For example, "Stickjock" evolved from "jock" or athelete (from jockstrap)
and "hot stick" from stickjock.
  
Anyone know about the shield called a"bunny round"?  I think it is because
it is a round shield with ears.  Any other explanations?  Is this a West
Kingdom term, or is it used by others?
  
Why is the two sword style called "Florentine" in the West?  Any other
styles have odd names?  Does your area use the term "slot shot" and if
so, for what?

In Lochac we have the "golf shot" which is an underhand swing in the
general area of the victim's goolies.  I think the term is local, anyone
else use it?
  
All anecdotes, examples of jargon, explanations etc. gratefully received
by post or email.

Selfran

-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------
     Zebee Johnstone  DoD #605   | You don't own an Italian motorcycle 
     Adelaide City Council       |  - you merely have the privilege 
    zebee@itd.adelaide.edu.au    |    of paying its bills.... 
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: Jeffrey.L.Singman@um.cc.umich.EDU
Subject: Elizabethan Handbook
Organization: The Internet
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 19:04:32 GMT

        Vox Clamantis Publications is pleased to announce the appearance of 
its  second monograph, *The Elizabethan Handbook.  A Manual for Living 
History c1588-1603*.  The text is c150 pp., spriral bound with b&w illuss., and 
includes detailed information and instructions on such subjects as clothing, 
song, dance, games, fencing and cuisine;  extensive contemporary dialogues 
illustrating many aspects of daily life as well as Elizabethan speech;  and a 
substantial bibliography, list of suppliers, etc.  The cost is US$12 plus $1.75 
postage, $2.50 postage to Canada, $3.25 postage overseas.  Orders and inquiries 
may be sent to Jeffrey L. Singman, 2244 St. Francis Dr. Apt. A107, Ann Arbor 
MI 48104.
        Also look for the appearance of Vox ClamantisU *first* monograph, 
*The Chaucerian Handbook.  A Manual for Living History c1342-1400* by 
January 1992.  Format and content are generally the same as that of the 
Elizabethan Handbook, the price will also be the same.  A limited number of 
review copies are currently available for those interested in offering input, or 
having an immediate need for the information.  Contact me for further 
details.
From: Allen.Pitts@f333.n142.z1.fidonet.org (Allen Pitts)
Sender: Uucp@blkcat.UUCP
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Smelly steel wagons at Pe
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 02:17:00 -0500

M'Lord....
I for one took no offense whatsoever at the placement of the
parking lot.  Indeed, een tho many a gas dragon did snort down the
path not 5 FEET from my head at night as I lay asleep, I noticed
them not.  I DID, however, take great umbridge at the blasting
horns of the great diesel beasts lumbering on the interstate!  I
was unfortunate enough to be assigned not far from that awful road,
and more than once I was actively planning my distances and angles
for a crossbow shot right into a semi.  (Wonder what they'd think
when they finally noticed an arrow sticking out?)  I do wish there
were some way to silence those beasties' horns!
In your service,
Lord Ailean Mac an Daroch
-> MegaMail v2.1 #0:allen.pitts@f333.n142.z1.fidonet.org

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: parr@acs.ucalgary.ca (Charles Parr)
Subject: Re: Edward Zifran of Gendy (was Re: Pennsic Land Allotment)
Date: Tue, 01 Sep 92 14:53:51 GMT
Organization: The University of Calgary, Alberta

In article <1992Aug31.115626.12289@lloyd.Camex.COM> amy@lloyd.Camex.COM (Amy Lindsay) writes:
>In article <1992Aug30.023751.23049@panix.com> ilaine@panix.com (Liz Stokes) writes:
>>	According to his lady, he hates the name 'Eddy', at Pennsic, she
>>was referring to him as 'Rapid Edward' (but you didn't hear that from me!)
>
>Most of the folks I know simply call him "Ed."  We met one of his old, old,
>OLD (not necessarily physically) friends at Pennsic who said at one time
>there had been a "the bastard" some where between the "Edward" and the
>"Gendy" but he got pulled away (by Edward) before he could explain further.

"Bloody bastard of Gendy"...The story is told her in An Tir that
Edward took a student, who became quite skilled. Went to a
tourney, and his student was, er, kicking butt with remarkable
proficiency. 

Well the kid got cocky, and someone mentioned this to Edward, so
Edward dragged himself out onto the field, and beat the snot out
of his student (in the interests of discipline of course), and as
the student crumpled to the ground in mock-death, Edward is said
to have bent down and uttered "You are not a Gendy yet!"

Uh huh.

Anyone who knows Edward, or who *was there* is invited to mail
me the details/truths of the matter...

Carolus Malvoix 
-- 
Within the span of the last few weeks I have heard elements of
separate threads which, in that they have been conjoined in time,
struck together to form a new chord within my hollow and echoing
gourd. --Unknown net.person
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Subject: Re: Drachenwald to be kingdom
Reply-To: whheydt@PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 15:33:24 GMT

In article <1992Aug25.163501.19166@progress.com> schuldy@progress.COM (Mark Schuldenfrei) writes:
>I would venture to say that the vast majority of the population that
>attended Pennsic now expects to see Drachenwald go Kingdom sometime
>before next Pennsic.  Perhaps the wrong impression was given.
>
>To repeat: it wasn't a petition that was presented at Pennsic, but
>the overall impression that was given was: the process is beginning,
>and will complete in less than a years time.
>
>Other blind men, of course, may have examined different parts of the
>elephant.

The part of the elephant I have since encountered is that "Drachenwald
is on the fast track for Kingdom status."

	--Hal

        Hal Ravn, Province of the Mists, West Kingdom
        Wilson H. Heydt, Jr.,  Albany, CA 94706,  510/524-8321 (home)
-- 
Hal Heydt                    |    "Boycott Time-Warner"
Analyst, Pacific*Bell        |         --J. Danforth Quayle
510-823-5447                 |    "... kill all the lawyers."
whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM    |         --William Shakespeare
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: tbarnes@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (thomas wrentmore barnes)
Subject: Re: TV and SCAers
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 00:36:43 GMT

In article <9208290005.AA19903@math.bu.edu> jeffs@math.bu.EDU (Jeff Suzuki) writes:
>
>Midair the Juggler writes:
>
>>Everytime, and I mean *everytime* I see a show with my SCA friends that
>>has to do with the middle ages, they can never sit back and watch it, they
>>have to nit pick every little detail and tear it to shreads.
>
>Ah, yes, I know the feeling.  Here's my own little pet gripe: the
>first time I watched "The Princess Bride" I did so with a bunch of
>SCAers, and I didn't hear but one third of the dialog, the remaining
>two thirds being lip-synched by those I was with....
>
>Tio d'abaco

Yeah, and you can't mention Monty Python in an SCA gathering without
somebody rattling off lines from "monty Python and the Holy Grail" or
"Flying Circus". Sheeesh, if I wanted to hear Monty Python, I'd rent the
Videos. Nobody does Python better than Python, and many do it much
worse.

Lothar \|/
        0
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: WALTER@tandem.physics.upenn.EDU
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: elizabethan costume
Date: 27 Aug 92 17:56:00 GMT
Organization: The Internet


To the gentles of the Rialto does Karen Walter/Richenda Cameron
of the Shire of Hartshorn-dale in the Kingdom of the East send greeting:

     In regards to the lady who enquired about Elizabethan costuming books:

     I can do no better than to recommend to you Janet Arnold's book,
"Patterns of  Fashion V. III, 1560-1620", New York: Drama Book Pubs., 1985.
ISBN 0-89676-026-X.  This covers
a wide selection of men's and women's clothing from the period, all carefully
redacted from original garments.  It also includes photographs of the originals
and construction details.  My copy cost about $35.00. worth every
penny.  A reputable bookstore can order it for you.

        Ms Arnold has also published an article
about the shirts, and shifts of the period, in the journal
Waffen- und Kostuemkunde, no. 19 (1977) pp. 89-11, which perhaps 
you can obtain a copy of through inter-library loan.  This article is the 
most comprehensive work I have seen
(again, based on actual original garments) about the construction of
undergarments.  This is the Real Thing, and not some simplified
Ren Fair version.  If you cannot get it, I could probably get you a xerox of it
for cost -- e-mail me.

	Speaking of the Elizabethan age, did anyone else experience the thatched
hovel built by the Trayned Band, known as the Green Man?  I spent fantastic 
evening there gambling with period cards and money, amid the odor of damp 
thatch.

Yours most sincerely,

Karen/Richenda (I am much more comfortable with Karen unless you are 
addressing me in persona)

University of Pennsylvania Tandem Lab/Hartshorn-dale, Kingdom of the East
e-mail:  walter@tandem.physics.upenn.edu
From: carl@silver.lcs.mit.edu (Alexander of Kiev (mka Carl Alexander))
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Blue Feather and "poof-da" ?????
Date: 26 Aug 92 12:03:21 GMT
Organization: The Rialto

Maybe it has to do with taking seriously my own admonition 
about making charitable assumptions regarding what people 
mean in their posts, but it never ocurred to me that "poof-da" 
in the original post was a reference to either gays or effeminate 
behaviour.  What passed through my mind when I saw it was
(Carnival barker's voice):
 
          'Ladies & Gentlemen, before your very eyes -- drumroll
          please -- abracadabra, poof-da -- it's a tourney!'
 
Alexander of Kiev                       Carolingia, East

Carl Alexander                          Harvard Square, Cambridge, Mass.
carl@silver.lcs.mit.edu 
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: tbarnes@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (thomas wrentmore barnes)
Subject: Re: Greetings from Ravensnest
Organization: Indiana University
Distribution: na
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 00:56:06 GMT

In article <BtwqLv.GqC@agora.rain.com> lcline@agora.rain.com (Larry Cline) writes:
>
>Greetings from Garrick Mayhew,
>
>In article <1992Aug31.023841.13363@ultb.isc.rit.edu> pjb4288@ultb.isc.rit.edu (Pete - Toonatic - Boulay) writes:
>>Greetings from Ravensnest and Lorin Francis Rinaud...
>>
>                ...
>		
>	>
>>I am a user of an electric wheelchair <don't know what to call it scadian>
>>and I've been thinking of how I could outfit it to be more period, and have
>>not come up with many ideas.
>>
>>If any gentle out there has a thought or suggestion, I'd love to entertain it.
>>
>
>This may seem somewhat silly but I have seen one with a horse's various and
>sundry parts.  It does have some drawbacks in close quarters but it is
>entertaining.
>
>Beyond that it seems that most people ignore the presence of the wheelchair,
>as if you had just walked up and sat down.  Others I have seen with various
>other fur and cloth coverings.
>
>
There is a lady named Mistress Gywnniss here in the Middle Kingdom who
has to use a personal mobility vehicle to get around at Pennsic. Since
she is in one of the Dark Horde Groups (I don't know which one), she has
decorated it with a lot of red and black cords and cloth and calls it
her "yak". Very cute.

   As for names for your wheels that don't sound garishly modern, how
about "my chair" or a "wheeled chair", both terms describe the item in
words that were known in period, and medieval technology could have come
up with a wheeled chair if the need had arose for one.
   As a general rule, I like to use words that ignore or conceal an
item's modern origins, rather than coming up with a cutesy term that
points out the fact that it is strange and that I am trying to hide the
fact. (Ex. wagon instead of dragon for car, garderobe instead of
portacastle for nasty chemical toilet at Pennsic).

   Hope I helped,            

   Lothar \|/
           0
		       ...
>
>>
>>In Service,
>>
>>Lorin Francis Rinaud
>>Elder Town Crier
>>Ravensnest, Thescorre, East
>>Campaigne Mercurie
>>-- 
>
>Garrick Mayhew
>-- 
>Larry Cline (Amiga Harpoon Scenario Administrator)
>lcline@agora.rain.com
>C_________   Industrial Graphics
>


Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: nowsa%Solomon.Technet.sg (shan wong)
Subject: q
Organization: National University of Singapore
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 00:57:27 GMT



From: Tim@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Tim)
Sender: FredGate@ocitor.fidonet
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Pennsic Update (End)
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1992 08:21:58

 LD> Regardless of how well you did or did not like the tourney, your use of
 LD> "poof-da" in such a negative manner suggests to this member of clan
 LD> blue feather that you think not only the "tourney" was bad, but also
 LD> that we (the proud members of Clan Blue Feather) are somehow less than
 LD> your esteemed self.

 LD> This poof-da humbly requests an apology. Not only to me and the other
 LD> members of my clan (be they gay, lesbian, bi, or straight supporters)
 LD> but also to all of the people who engaged in the tourney. You have
 LD> slighted and insulted us all.

I wondered when the next flame-war was going to arrive. Who gets to start?

    Tadhg, Obelisk

 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
From: halls@gn.ecn.purdue.edu (Scott Hall)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: consort gender
Date: 25 Aug 92 16:58:40 GMT
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network

I think that same sex consorts might be considered under the ruling as swasticas

and pentagrams.  All three apperantly happened in period, but the support of
which could hurt the SCA.  

Jafar
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: aryk@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (A.J.S. Nusbacher)
Subject: Re: Historical Accuracy (was Re: COVINGTON CROSS)
Organization: University of Toronto -- Hart House
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 17:44:20 GMT

In article <1992Aug28.160818.22537@samba.oit.unc.edu> Ann.Feeney@bbs.oit.unc.edu (Ann Feeney) writes:

>I think a lot of enjoyment is lost in expecting non-SCA activities
>to hold up to our standard of authenticity, especially as they
>never intended to in the first place.  

Script, editing and direction aside, Covington Cross was a splendid example
of the SCA's standard of authenticity.

The characters were modern people with modern motivations wearing an attempt
at mediaeval clothing, and mixing elements from different times and places
in an effort to portray the Middle Ages as they should have been according
to modern ideas of honour and proper behaviour.  The show ranged from some
splendid examples of authenticity (the coach they used bore a strong resembl-
ance to an illustration in the Luttrell Psalter, though it was, I believe,
a 16th century design), through some good attempts (the background characters
were pretty inoffencive looking), some mixtures of convenience (having the
pretty young lady lounging about in tights and a coat), some macho-cool
rubbish (black clothes with a lot of studs), some good fighting (Nigel Terry
had obviously worked with a good fight director before), and some bad
fighting (that little greaser with the sideburns).

The producers were trying to appeal to modern sensibilities, just as the
producers of the ITV Robin Hood series, the producers of both recent Robin
Hood films, the producers of _Excalibur_, and so on, have been trying to do.
And one of the ways they do it is by depicting not the reall Middle Ages,
but a construct that resembles the Middle Ages in some identifiable ways
(horses, castles, different clothes, archaic stuff), and not in some other
ways (leading with the right hand when using a broadsword).  Just like the
producer of your local Community Theatre production of _Camelot_, just like
Dorothy Dunnett's novels, just like re-enactment groups, and just like the
SCA.

Aryk Nusbacher

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: EDK.LASPAU@mhsgw.harvard.EDU (EDK)
Subject: Re: Covington Cross
Organization: The Internet
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1992 23:23:00 GMT


Most of the pre-publicity I've seen on Covington Cross described it has a 
action/drama dealing with 90s issues in medeavel setting.  Judging from the 
premiere, that description looks accurate.

If you are looking for authenticity, don't bother watching.  If you are 
looking for an evening of light entertainment, it might turn out to be fun 
-- or you might be better off watching a test pattern, we'll have to wait a 
few more episodes to tell.

-- Avelina

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Avelina Perceval                              Ellen Kranzer 
Lieutenant, Carolingian Company of Bowmen     18 Riverdale Street
Barony of Carolingia                          Allston, MA 02134
East Kingdom                                  h:617-254-0057, 
w:617-495-5255
(email: ekranzer@harvard.edu or ccrazy@athena.mit.edu)





Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: dale@ais.org (Dale Gee)
Subject: Re: bunny round and other weird words
Organization: UMCC
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 01:50:00 GMT

In the beggars guild we have the "flying grovel".  
Also if not already tossed out "porta castle" for knight on the run:)

  



Newsgroups: rec.org.sca