HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.xcult-l
Date:         Wed, 30 Dec 1992 01:08:44 CDT
From:         jean <SOCW9V@UHUPVM1.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Militantly tolerant
              23 Dec 1992 11:40:15 -0400 from <STCHRI@SSCVAX.CIS.MCMASTER.CA>

On Wed, 23 Dec 1992 11:40:15 -0400 DOUGL, APPARENTLY. said:
>-----She/He/They Said ----
>->
>->>Does anyone have any ideas what qualities of this list make these sorts
>->>of discussions so difficult????

Dougl, i have observed the same kind of altercations on other lists.
The lists that become "difficult" are those in which the personal and
the intellectual become merged.  as i have observed it, the more
personal the discussion, the more likely are people's emotions to be
involved, the more likely the discussion to become "difficult."

one of the things that fascinates me about these discussions is that
people who are emotionally charged are damned if they express their
emotions and damned if they don't.  if they express it, they are
labelled as too emotional and injecting the personal into an
intellectual discusison.  if they don't express it and try to "rise
above it," their emotional hook comes through anyway and gives an extra
oomph to the discussion that we can all feel but really don't know
how to talk about--or feel too uncomfortable in talking about.

i think where i am leading is that we lack an emotional vocabulary that
is socially sanctioned in these kinds of forums, and lacking such a
vocabulary, the discussions that hook the personal in us are doomed to
failure, because what is really going on (the emotional hook/
personal, etc.) is not supposed to be appropriate to discuss--
except, of course, for anger.

we legitimize anger in such discussions, for example, but
not hurt and pain.  and so we attack rather than say "that hurt me, i
wish you wouldn't do it."   as someone pointed out to me, isn't it
interesting that "flaming" is the only emotion that has its own
special word on e-mail?

>->I believe that sometimes we take a little cultural sensitivity too far.  Then
>->we end up too touchy, too pontificating, too self-righteous, and down-right
>->mean.  We claim that we aspire to tolerance, and in so doing, we become very
>->willing to point out the apparent intolerance of others.  We basically become
>->very prejudice against our perception of prejudiced people.  ---  IMO
>->
>->LJG
>
very well put.  that's the other side.  when one is personally
invested and the other appears "prejudiced," then it is very
difficult to tolerate what appears to be intolerant.  i've felt it
in me.  i've seen it in others.

>We keep trying because, in the end, we really do want to learn something
>from this exchange...
>
>
>Dougl,           *
>The           .
>Southern       *   *
>Cross            *
>
>AKA
>
i want to learn the origins of the name, "dougl, the southern
cross."  care to tell us?

jean

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Jean Kantambu Latting (JLatting@UH.EDU or JLatting@UHOU)
_________________________________________________________________
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.xcult-l
Date:         Thu, 31 Dec 1992 00:59:14 CDT
From:         jean <SOCW9V@UHUPVM1.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Dougl, the Southern Cross
              30 Dec 1992 09:55:54 -0400 from <STCHRI@SSCVAX.CIS.MCMASTER.CA>

On Wed, 30 Dec 1992 09:55:54 -0400 DOUGL, APPARENTLY. said:
>                 Sensing a new trend toward informality, Bill suggested
>I drop the second S from my name and thenn reconsidering, suggested I lose
>my "ass" altogether in Samoa.
>
>Hence Dougl.

doogl (i prefer trish's incarnation of your name)--but you used to
specialize in tongue-in-cheek (all puns intended) comments.  does this
mean we won't get to experience your special brand of this anymore?
>
>But Cross has other emblematics - cranky, angry, purturbed, unsettled.
>
>And Southern comments on a previous existence, as the Gnome of the North,
>a real cranky bugger who never gave Jean a moments rest when she was
>Venusian and trying to be heard.

you were the cranky venusian bugger.  i was one of two jovian women
trying to find out how we ended up in a male dominated universe.

trish said you are still cranky, but not cross (or was it the other
way around?)  in any case, does this have something to do with the
missing part of your anatomy?   hmmmmm???????

in any case, i hope that the man who sent us an e. e. cummings poem
is still with us.

jean
>

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Jean Kantambu Latting (JLatting@UH.EDU or JLatting@UHOU)
_________________________________________________________________
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.xcult-l
Date:         Mon, 21 Dec 1992 09:29:18 GMT
From:         Peter Mandal <eeipml@EEIUC.ERICSSON.SE>
Subject:      Christmas (Holiday:-)) Greetings

Hello all you X-Culters!

I'd just like to wish you a happy and peaceful
Christmas (and, Please don't anyone take offense!).
And a prosperous New Year.

I am signing off tomorrow for the Christmas break.
I may not have access to a 'mailtool' with the capacity
to receive all the X-Cult mail for the first few months
of '93. (I do have another address: eei.eeipml@memo.ericsson.se
but will not use this for list subscription. BUT if any
of you are so bored that you'd like to contact and equally
bored individual, feel free to do so at the above
address!)
Unfortunately, I have not had the time to make any
significant contributions for the past while, but have
enjoyed smiling, mourning, getting angry etc. reading
the postings each day on X-Cult.

Again, peace to you.

Love,
      Peter


 *   *    *   *  *       *    *  *   *    * *   !    *     *    *
 @/@/  *   @/@/    *   MERRY X-MAS *   *      - * -    *  *    *
* @ @/  * @/ / *    *  *    & *   *     *   *   !        *  *  *
  --@  *   /--   *   HAPPY NEW YEAR   *  *      /@   *     *    *
 * /@@/--@//@  * *  *   *   *   *      *    *  /o@@     *    *
*  @/! 00 !@/ *   *   *   * *     *  *   *     //@o  *     *    *
  *  !    !----------------    *    *  *   *  o//o@@     *    *
*    @ .. /               @@@    *    *   *   /o/@@o  *     *   *
  * * @--/                 @-   *    *       o//o@@o@    * *   *
*   *  * @                 /      *    *  *  /o//@o@o  *   *   *
 * *  *   @               /    * *  *  *    o/o//o@@o@    *  *  *
  *  *  *  @ /--------@  /   *  *  *  *   * //o//@@o@o  *    *  *
***********! !*********! !**********************!!****************
***********@-/*********@-/********************* !! ***************
From: ap290@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ruth M. Hanschka)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.xcult-l
Subject: Re: Militantly tolerant
Date: 23 Dec 1992 05:49:58 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: xcult-l@psuvm.psu.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, RUPP@GONZAGA.BITNET () says:

>Adam/Ruth:
>
>Just wanted to make a request.  The "conversation" has indeed gone way
>BEYOND HEATED, and has turned into an exchange of personal attacks, which
>makes me rather uncomfortable.  We have lost sight of the inter-cultural
>aspect of this list.  In the spirit of the season, can we call a truce and
>pass on to another topic?
>
It's already happened, I think.  Thank goodness; I've had that flamewar once
already, and the rerun wasn't any more fun or informative.  It did give me
a pretty good idea of what exists out there, though, in the way of button
pushers.  It also seems to have answered the question about whether or not
a discussion like that can take place over a relatively anonymous network.
It was worth a try, anyway.:-(

-- 
		###	Ruth Hanschka, the Nethead    ###
			- ap290@cleveland.freenet.edu
	      Where anything can happen, and it usually does
From: ap290@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ruth M. Hanschka)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.xcult-l
Subject: Re: squeaky wheels and perceptions of Americans
Date: 23 Dec 1992 05:41:29 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: xcult-l@pusvm.psu.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, STCHRI@SSCVAX.CIS.MCMASTER.CA ("DOUGL, APPARENTLY.") says:

>For all the world, Ruths definition of politician is the best I have
>heard in a dogs ages::
>
>        Someone two stupid to get a real job and too rich to
>        need one.
>
>Thanks R.
>
You're welcome; I'm not sure if that's mine or if it was stolen from a late
night show.  Could be either.:-)


-- 
		###	Ruth Hanschka, the Nethead    ###
			- ap290@cleveland.freenet.edu
	      Where anything can happen, and it usually does
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Date:         Tue, 22 Dec 1992 06:58:00 -0400
From:         "DOUGL, APPARENTLY." <STCHRI@SSCVAX.CIS.MCMASTER.CA>
Subject:      Re: squeaky wheels and perceptions of Americans

For all the world, Ruths definition of politician is the best I have
heard in a dogs ages::

        Someone two stupid to get a real job and too rich to
        need one.

Thanks R.

And Happy happy happy


Dougl,           *
The           .
Southern       *   *
Cross            *

AKA

  <-><-><-><-><-><-><-><-><-><->
  <->                        <->
  <-> Douglass St.Christian  <->        ______
  <-> Anthropology           <->        \    / This Tribe can
  <-> McMaster               <->         \  /  speak
  <-> Canada                 <->          \/   for itself
  <->                        <->
  <-><-><-><-><-><-><-><-><-><->
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Date:         Wed, 30 Dec 1992 12:30:37 -0400
From:         IPW <WILSONT@SSCVAX.CIS.MCMASTER.CA>
Subject:      Re: Dougl, the Southern Cross

tsk tsk tsk ...

our doogl?  he's still cranky, not cross ...

jean, my sister jovian, should be aware of that ...

p.s: i'd be an avid observer of an attempt to 'write into existence' an xcult-l
version of sanctioned emotional vocabulary ... ;)

trishwitch
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.xcult-l
Date:         Thu, 31 Dec 1992 18:41:57 -0500
From:         AHMED@DAYTON.BITNET
Subject:      Question for Ruth....

Ruth,

You are the most articulate and best spokesperson for the Christian
right here....and while I disagree on just about everything with you,
I am curious....

You seemed to have indicated that you had friends of different faiths and
colours and beliefs......  I do admire those friends of yours.... do they know t
   hat you think they are
doomed to hell, that you think their religion is all wrong and that you
feel it your mission to show them the right way, that you feel it
your duty to take away their right to their body or to practice sex in
way they may prefer and YET they continue to be "friends"....

I am not trying to be sarcastic..... I am just wondering if their is
something wrong in the way I perceive friendship... I have come across
people with similiar beliefs and cannot seem to handle them and just
avoid them..... and their are other christians (are they christians by
your definition?) who seem to accept that I just might make it to heaven by
being a good person even if I never open a bible again or see the inside
of a church....

zahir
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.xcult-l
Date:         Thu, 31 Dec 1992 22:32:21 CST
From:         Garry Dyck <gdyck@CCU.UMANITOBA.CA>
Subject:      RE:the environmental problem
              "PALMERI@OSHKOSHW.BITNE

Tony suggests that poverty is the main issue.  I agree but we must not
think that affluence will drive the desire of having children away.  It is
true that some people want children for financial security but the value
of children is much greater than this in many less developed countries.
Living in a less developed country showed me that family and what we refer
to as extended family relationships are an important part of the culture I
was observing.  Discussions with people in many other less developed
countries confirms this.

When I came back to Canada, I was astounded (and perhaps somewhat ashamed)
to see how much less we value family relationships.  I shudder to think
that we would encourage them to lose what we have lost so long ago...

But then this does not leave us with a solution to the problem posed...

Garry
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Date:         Thu, 31 Dec 1992 13:30:00 EST
From:         YONI@BROWNCOG.BITNET
Subject:      The Environmental Problem

         The root of all our environmental problems is the overpopulation of
the human race. Global warming, rain forest destruction, loss of biodiversity,
and ozone layer depletion can all be linked back to our growing population.
Too many people for such a precious environment. The "Population explosion" is
occuring now and will be in its peak within the next couple of decades.90% of
the next growth spurt will occur in undeveloped third world countries. More and
more people will be born and contribute to such environmental problems.Under-
developed countries might gain technology and further impact the environment
with their population and techno-pollution.Something must be done to prevent
the explosion.Does the answer lie in Family Planning?Birth control? Or does
it lie in something more threatening such as resolving cultural differences?
I don't know if "threatining" is a good word. But procreation is in the culture
of many cultures and anything impeding proecreation (Family planning,educating
village women about sex,birth control, and other solutions) is antithetical to
a culture where large families are key.
         What is the solution? How can the U.S stand as a world leader and
solve the problem? Who else can solve the problem? What is the best solution
to the worldwide population problem? Does the solution lie in policy considera-
tions such as trade policy and aid packages or does it lie in massive cultural
understanding.
         I believe that the only way to solve this problem is by combining
policy with culture. Institute family planning in countries which would never
allow it. And if they do not allow it, plead with the rulers of such countries
and come to an agreemenmt peacefully. Explain the problem to the whole world.
Educated the uneducated. Allocate world money to the solution of such a
problem. Use trade and aid to deliver the message and introduce new solutions.
         What does everyone think? Hoe do we solve this environemtnal problem?
WHo can prevent it? How?
                                         Lance
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Return-Path: <@JHUVM.HCF.JHU.EDU:erwin@sigma.gams.com>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.vfort-l
Date:         Tue, 22 Dec 1992 12:04:32 -0500
From:         erwin@SIGMA.GAMS.COM
Subject:      How to intercept HX

Is it possible to intercept HX inside a fortran program?

My application can run for quite some time, and in some
cases the user may want to interrupt it. However to
provide meaningful output in those cases I need to
do some clean-up etc. On MS-DOS I use CTRL-C for this
purpose and on UNIX I use signals (via "kill"). I thought
that HX may serve a similar purpose under VM.

Thanks in advance for your replies.

Erwin Kalvelagen
erwin@gams.com
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Date:         Wed, 23 Dec 1992 11:29:22 +0200
From:         "Hans S. Jarosch" <VUHANS@WEIZMANN.WEIZMANN.AC.IL>
Subject:      Re: How to intercept HX
              22 Dec 92 12:04:32 -0500 from <erwin@SIGMA.GAMS.COM>

You can use HX to stop a program. However, sometimes it takes quite
a while to stop. Another way is to the command CP EXT which is a CP
command for an External Interrupt. This is to be followed when a
Prompt is given. I hope that this will help you. Hans S. Jarosch
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.cyber-l
Date:         Thu, 31 Dec 1992 09:36:39 EST
From:         "A. Kaniss" <dashiell@NADC.NADC.NAVY.MIL>
Subject: Re: PRO-IV Questions
Comments: To: CYBER-L@uga.cc.uga.edu

I think that manufacturer is mostly into case tools.
That being the case, perhaps you should subscribe to case-l.

jude <dashiell@nadc.nadc.navy.mil>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.cyber-l,comp.software-eng,comp.software.licensing
From: dalk@login.dkuug.dk (Lars Kalsen)
Subject: PRO-IV Questions
Organization: DKnet
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 13:08:03 GMT



Happy New Year ! - I try once again.

I am looking for information about a 4GL language from McDonnell Douglas
which is called PRO-IV. We have an application build in this language
that we might skip now but I would like to know a little more about the
language. 

So - if your are working with applications in PRO-IV or
know someone who is - please E-mail me information on

       - what kind of application you know - or have heard about.
       - information about the future for the language.
       - knowledge about how to manage applications in PRO-IV.
       - opinions about the language.

and maybe more.

All answers are appreciated - the MUST be someone using PRO-IV on the net.

Greetings from Denmark

Lars Kalsen



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lars Kalsen, MIS-Manager
SONOFON, Skelagervej 1, 9000 Aalborg, Denmark
+45-99-367000 (tel), +45-99-367070 (fax), E-Mail : dalk@login.dkuug.dk
===============================================================================
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X-Acknowledge-To: <UCAD331@FRORS12.BITNET>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.ibm-main
Date:         Thu, 24 Dec 1992 16:11:47 NFT
From:         INIST <UCAD331@FRORS12.BITNET>
Subject:      PR/SM

Hi
We are running MVS/XA220 on 9121/210 64M 12 channels Basic Mode.
We want migrate XA to ESA with PR/SM Help Feature.
I am a beginner in PR/SM world and I ask me following questions.
Can I dedicate only one Channel path to my Test Partition ?
Can I share this channel with 3174 support Console and DASD ?
Any suggestions are welcome .
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year ...
               Michel VILLAUME
                    INIST/CNRS
      Institut de l'Information Scientifique et Technique
      Centre National de la Recherche Scientifique
      2,Allee du Parc de BRABOIS
      54514 VANDOEUVRE LES NANCY FRANCE
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.ibm-main
Date:         Tue, 29 Dec 1992 09:21:38 CST
From:         Larry Holder <##09@UTMARTN.BITNET>
Subject:      4 GL for mainframes

> Hi!
>
> I would like to know in detail, what are the fourth generation languages
> available on Mainframes.
>

I have heard of, but not used myself, the NATURAL language.
Besides that, some might mention EASYTRIEVE and GENER/OL, both now
CA products acquired from the Pansophic buy-out, but they are really
no more than specialized 3rd generation products in my opinion.

Larry Holder,  Sr. Programmer/Analyst            Bitnet: ##09@UTMARTN
The University of Tennessee at Martin            Phone:  901-587-7890
Martin, TN  38238                                Fax:    901-587-7841

VM/ESA 1.0, VSE/ESA 1.1, CICS/VSE 2.1, COBOL-II, DL/I, SQL/DS, QMF
CICS monitor: Landmark TMON, VSAM compression: Legent EXTEND/DASD
IBM 9221-150, 9336 FBA, 7171, RISC/6000
PSW (Personal Status Words): Saved by grace (Romans 1:16 & 8:38)
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.ibm-main
Date:         Thu, 24 Dec 1992 10:15:42 EST
From:         Ken Bell <SYKLB@NASAGISS.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Is PL/S a dead language?

On Wed, 23 Dec 1992 21:05:00 PST Michael Stein said:
>With all this talk of IBM reorganization and mainframes being
>dead, I'm wondering if IBM's PL/S is now a dead language?

>I haven't seen IBM trying to sell it as a product, which
>considering the shape their in, I'd figure they would try to sell
>anything they had, so perhaps it's effectively dead and it's
>internal use to be minimized.

This has been recently addressed on the VMSHARE bulletin board,
by a couple of IBM's VM developers, in a roundabout way.  They
posed the question of whether a move towards C and/or C++ as the
primary language for new VM development would be welcomed (I hope
I'm paraphrasing them correctly).

The ensuing discussion ranged from (a) welcoming the idea, at least
in principle, to (b) accepting that C/C++ are the current de facto
systems programming standard language(s), to (c) renewed calls for
IBM to release a PL/X compiler and use it (or at least PL/I) along
with 370 assembler instead of C/C++.  The consensus even among the
PL/S diehards, is that IBM has no intention of ever releasing it,
even though there is no apparent advantage to them at this point
to maintain it as a proprietary "asset".

One of the benefits of moving to C/C++, as presented by the IBMers,
is the wider availablity of programmers experienced in those languages.
Interestingly, the discussion was started about 2 days before IBM
announced its intention of massive personnel cuts.

+-------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Ken Bell (SYKLB@NASAGISS * SYKLB@NASAGISS.GISS.NASA.GOV * 212-678-5545) |
+-------------------------------------------------------------------------+
From: ntm1169@DSACG3.DSAC.DLA.MIL (Mott Given)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.ibm-main
Subject: PR/SM on ESA platform?
Date: 24 Dec 92 11:56:24 GMT
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Comments: To: ibm-main%akronvm.BITNET@cunyvm.cuny.edu


    I am interested in finding a Dept. of Defense computer site running
PR/SM on an ESA platform.  Does anyone know of any such sites?


Mott Given @ Defense Logistics Agency ,DSAC-TMP, P.O. Box 1605,
Bldg. 27  Section 1, Systems Automation Center, Columbus, OH 43216-5002
INTERNET: mgiven@dsac.dla.mil         UUCP:  ...osu-cis!dsac!mgiven
Phone:  614-692-9431    AUTOVON: 850-9431     FAX: 614-692-9928
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Date:         Wed, 30 Dec 1992 15:54:47 CST
From:         Larry Holder <##09@UTMARTN.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: PL/S etc

> The difference is that Rexx was provided at no cost just when VM was
> really taking off, while the HLA is provided at extra cost when people
> are thinking about shutting down mainframes. How on earth is one supposed
> to make a business case for spending serious money on this product?
> I mean, at my last job (before I quit) I couldn't even convince them to
> get the (free) SLAC assembler mods, let alone CMS pipelines.
> When will IBM learn the lesson from Unix that the more system programming
> tools you bundle in, the more useful bits of software get written for the
> system?

I totally agree; requiring an extra fee for the HLA is going to be its
most serious drawback.  The same case could be made for COBOL-II; it
is required if you want to write 31-bit applications, but at a cost.
In the VSE/ESA world, why not have IBM offer HLA and COBOL-II as
part of the bundle, starting at, say, release 1.3 which is coming soon.
They might see a lot more shops jump on the ESA bandwagon, and get off
of the old VSE/SP 2,3,4 stuff.  Or even make it a limited-time offer,
to encourage more places to try the upgrade earlier.
I guess we can all wonder how we ended up getting REXX for free...

/Larry
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