HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: toman@bovine.uoregon.edu (J. Toman)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Finishing techniques
Date: 30 Dec 1992 11:12:33 GMT
Organization: University of Oregon Network Services
NNTP-Posting-Host: bovine.uoregon.edu

In article <1992Dec29.004930.13723@cbfsb.cb.att.com> osan@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (Mr. X) writes:
>	What's this about the writs?  Ugg... kote gaeshi is NOT a wrist
>	technique, but one for the forearm.  What is practiced widely
>	these days is a corruption, and is easily escaped.  

Boy, lot's of flamage on this one. I'd have to agree with Andy, though
the word 'corruption' is a bit strong for me. The problem with working
kote gaeshi at the wrist is that it doesn't affect the uke's center.
You can stand there and thrash on one wrist, but if they still have 
their balance they can attack with the other hand. Now, I can't do this,
but I have seen one of our instructors do just exactly this. If he doesn't
want to be thrown by this sort of kote gaeshi, he won't be thrown. Competent
people have tried.

Working it on the kote , which I was taught is about half of the forearm
starting at the wrist, forces the affected elbow in towards the centerline,
which causes all sorts of postural changes in ukes shoulders and spine 
and (you guessed it) strongly affects uke's center. The hand (and the wrist 
between the hand and kote) is just used as a crank, useful but not necessary.
It's more difficult to counter this because it's draws more of uke's body 
into the technique.

Only slightly related, the only other time I've seen a kote gaeshi similar
to the one we practice was on a tape of Don Angier, who is/was (?) the
head of Yanagi-ryu Aikijutsu. Every Hombu aikidoist I've seen does the
wrist method.

						J. Toman
From: roberts@pogo.wv.tek.com (Robert Stroud)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: more on car jacking
Date: 21 Dec 92 18:16:21 GMT
Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Wilsonville,  OR.

In article <4419@unisql.UUCP> wrat@unisql.UUCP (wharfie) writes:
>me as I go by but just hits my old green Checker.  
 
    Ah, the Checker Cab, a true MA vehicle!
    Big practical, indestructible and not
    flashy.  I want one.


-- 
Robert Stroud       Robert_Stroud@simulacrum.wv.tek.com
Obukan Kendo Club   Portland Oregon USA
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: ras@athena.mit.edu (Richard A Shandross)
Subject: Re: Kicking someone's xxx.
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1992 04:56:18 GMT

In article <ckuan.725358275@sfu.ca> ckuan@fraser.sfu.ca (Chiow Min Kuan) writes:
>
>       "Will I be accused of assault for beating the shit out of a
>        customer, if he really, really verbally insulted me?"
>

As someone (H.G. Wells?) once said:  "Violence is the last refuge of the
incompetant."  Surely there are better ways to deal with the situation than
attacking the guy.  If all else fails, thicken your skin a bit.  Learn to
see the verbal abuse as HIS problem, be grateful that you aren't cursed (like
he is) with having to live with him all his life, and go your own way.

When you let him get you so angry that you get down in the mud with him, he hasalready won... he's transferred his misery to you.  A good martial artist
doesn't accept bad energy from anyone.

By the way, given a choice I'd rather defend myself against someone who's angrywith me than someone who's not.  Strong emotions blind a person and reduce his
effectiveness.  (Ever hear the phrase "blinded by anger?")  You'd better hope
your customer doesn't know this, because you could be in big trouble if he does.

Best of luck, and let us know how it turns out.


        Rich
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: osan@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (Mr. X)
Subject: Re: Car jacking
Organization: Twilight Zone
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 16:46:27 GMT

In article <1992Dec17.134133.24632@cci632.cci.com> dkm@cci632.cci.com (Don Morrill) writes:
>Well, as the Rochester news likes to put it, I was the victim of the
>first reported attempted car-jacking in the Rochester area.

	First: glad to hear you were not injured.
>
	You did real well here IMNSHO.  Very well indeed!  You kept
	your cool and did what you could to AVOID combat.  Bravo!

>Questions:
>If the kid had gotten into my car with the claw hammer, what actions could
>I have taken. 

	I would have taken him as quickly as possible.  This person is armed
	with a VERY deadly weapon and such actions must be taken as proof that
	his intentions are nefarious in the gravest extreme.  The first thing
	would be to neutralize the threat that the weapon poses.  A hammer has
	limited application in a car due to cramped quarters, but this does
	not necessarily diminish the potential effectiveness of a strike that
	is well placed.  In such a circumstance you must crowd him so a strike
	becomes vastly more difficult.  Then I would try to either grab an 
	extremity or take his eyes right out of his head.  Yubi dori works
	great if you can grab a finger or two (yubi dori == finger breaking).
	But even better is the *threat* to break the fingers.  If you can get
	him into position, the threat to his bone structure will become
	painfully apparent in short order, unless you are dealing with a 
	drugged person, in which case you may be forced to kill right off.  If
	you break the fingers, the area goes into shock and he may not feel it
	and you may lose the ability to control the situation without doing
	grave violence (which is also OK BTW).  Taking the eyes, gross as it
	sounds, is probably one of the best choices you have.

	Of course, as he enters the passenger side, you could exit from the
	drivers side :).
	
>With my limited MA training, the
>best I could come up with is either a fist to the groin as he entered the car

	Forget the groin attack.  Highly over rated.

>or perhaps a palm-heel strike to the nose with a hito(sp?) to the side of
>the neck (brachial plexis???).

	NOW you're talking!  Also a strike to the lower occipital area of the 
	head will clean the ole clock.  High shock value without maiming.
>
>If the kid did strike me with the hammer and make me drive off with his
>friends following, what then. Jump from the car and let it drive off
>uncontrollably, possibly hitting a bystander? Ride it out for a while and
>hope for the best? Continue to attack the youth who already has struck me
>at least once?
>
	HArd to say, though riding it out is, generally speaking, not a very
	good idea.  I'd assume they intend on killing the witness.


	-Andy V.
From: tmaas@rchland.vnet.ibm.com (Anthony Maas)
Subject: Re: group for judo?
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 15:41:05 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM Rochester

|>  I do believe in using your
|> abilities for defense only, but it still comes down to being the best fighter you
|> can be.  Doesn't it? 
|> 
|> Robin Collier
|> robin2@garfield.cs.mun.ca
|> 

Specific example:  

	I go to school in La Crosse, WI, but currently I'm
	interning in Rochester, MN.  I went looking for schools
	in the Rochester area, and actually found a TKD style
	that approximated the one I had been studying.  It was
	kind of expensive, since I'm only an intern, but I liked
	the style, and they did a lot of self-defense.  The reason
	I didn't stay with the school was because I wouldn't be
	allowed to practice the stuff I need to practice to keep
	current with my school in La Crosse, which I would have
	done in my spare time.  Specifically, escrima forms, some
	aikido and jujitsu techniques I have to know.  Totally
	turned me off to the school....

BTW, if anybody wants to move to Rochester and open, say, an aikido or jujitsu school, there's only three or four TKD schools and a kempo class at the Y...

Hint, hint...

Tony Maas
IBM Rochester, MN
From: mikel@Apple.COM (Mikel Evins)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Finishing techniques
Date: 30 Dec 92 22:15:48 GMT
Organization: Apple Computer Inc, Cupertino, CA

In article <1hs071INNlkv@pith.uoregon.edu> toman@bovine.uoregon.edu (J. Toman) writes:
>The problem with working
>kote gaeshi at the wrist is that it doesn't affect the uke's center.
...
>Working it on the kote , which I was taught is about half of the forearm
>starting at the wrist, forces the affected elbow in towards the centerline,
>which causes all sorts of postural changes in ukes shoulders and spine 
>and (you guessed it) strongly affects uke's center. The hand (and the wrist 
>between the hand and kote) is just used as a crank, useful but not necessary.
>It's more difficult to counter this because it's draws more of uke's body 
>into the technique.

It also looks to me like it's important to take into account the
state of motion of uke's center. We have a standard release from
kotegaeshi-type movements. Its success seems to me to depend critically
on the ability of the person whose wrist is being turned to take up
a certain position that dissolves nage's advantage. In working with
a pretty good aikidoist in a sort of free-sparring manner I
seemed to notice that it was vital for him to judge the moment
and angle of motion just right in order to prevent my escape.
Basically, my overall body motion had to be such that it was
impossible to achieve the position I wanted once my wrist was
in his grasp.
From: shaig@Think.COM (Shai Guday)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Self-Defense Books
Date: 22 Dec 1992 19:54:56 GMT
Organization: Thinking Machines Corporation, Cambridge MA, USA
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: galaxy.think.com

In article <BzFpBJ.2sE@sju.edu>, tmoody@sju.edu (T. Moody) writes:
|> 
|> Trained martial artists are likely to know a
|> great deal about delivery of power, timing, and distancing.  They may
|> not know so much about patterns of attack/assault, targets, and
|> confrontations. 

I believe the key word here is trained.  It is all a matter of how
one trains and what one encounters while training.

|> Again, some arts *do* claim to integrate all of the above--Kung Fu San
|> Soo and Krav Maga come to mind--but many don't.

Krav Maga is not a martial art.  It is also very limited in its
scope, but thats beside the point.

|> One way to do complementary self-defense training is to form a small
|> group of interested people, a book to use as a text, and begin
|> practicing.  What I'd like to do here is start a discussion on books
|> that people would or would not recommend as texts for this purpose.

Well, while this might work I tend to be pessimistic about the idea.
My own feeling is that people should train within their own styles
first for things that will work.  This will probably prove more successful
as they should have some of the techniques down pat and be familiar with
others.  It will also be easier to merge the two than a new form.

Yes, by all means pick up new forms and try them out occasionally
to complement ones you are already familiar with, but looking outside
of ones own form is usually unnecessary.


-- 
Shai Guday		| 
OS Software Engineer	| 
Thinking Machines Corp. |
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: jfrost@crash.cts.com (Julian Frost)
Subject: Re: dangers in falling
Organization: CTS Network Services (crash, ctsnet), El Cajon, CA
Distribution: rec
Date: 21 Dec 92 18:33:10 PST

In article <1992Dec21.4926.13219@dosgate> "elliott chapin" <elliott.chapin@canrem.com> writes:
>I'd be interested in hearing what people have to say about falling on
>hard surfaces; some ways that are fine on mats won't work away from
>mats.
>
>Elliott Chapin
>---

I think the answer here is "roll with it".  If you try to do a
"break-fall", ie Slap with your hand/arm... something's gonna break,
and I don't think it will be the concrete!  Learn how to roll softly
so that there are no edges (ie, hip bones, knees, ankles etc), that is
probably the best solution... or...?

Happy training. Julian
From: jchristian@desire.wright.edu
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: stranglehold
Date: 22 Dec 92 06:01:16 GMT
Organization: Wright State University

In article <4417@unisql.UUCP>, wrat@unisql.UUCP (wharfie) writes:
> In article <4412@unisql.UUCP> wrat@unisql.UUCP (wharfie) writes:
>>>As often as I've this particular choke done to me, the only thing I've found
>>>that is halfway reliable is turning your head and dropping your chin.  But if
> 
> 	I've got another question:  if you can hit someone hard enough
> to knock them off balance and there's enough opportunity to get both 
> hands around their neck AND accurately position your thumbs for this
> attack, why would you use it and not just a knuckle punch to the trachea?
> To show off? :-)

I probably made it sound more complicated than it really is.  You start it just
like you would a bad movie choke, but it's more aggressive (hence the shove
that takes them off balance) and the thumbs move a bit more.
> 
> 	Does this technique have a name, by the way?

Don't know.  I'm shamefully rotten with names (Asian or otherwise).  And even
worse with spelling.

Got a question for you, Wharfie.  This choke attack could be a sort of sho-off
attack.  And the bear-hug variation I asked about probably won't happen to too
many people in the near future.  I'm sometimes curious about what-ifs because
the world is less than ideal (sometimes) and I figure it's better to address
what-ifs than to hope we never get into that situation to begin with.

But back to my question.  "I only use my martial art for self defense."  Heard
it a million times, and I generally agree with it.  But are there times when
you would use it to attack somebody?  No one is attacking you or your loved
ones or your friends.  Is martial arts only for defense?  Curious about the
answers, philosophically and otherwise.

Thanks Wharfie (and others),
Jeff
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Kicking someone's xxx.
From: mtambay@mtroyal.ab.ca
Date: 29 Dec 92 10:30:45 MST
Organization: Mount Royal College, Calgary, Alberta

In article <ckuan.725358275@sfu.ca>, ckuan@fraser.sfu.ca (Chiow Min Kuan) writes:
> 
> 
> Hi netters, I am working for a restaurant in downtown Vancouver, Canada.
> 
> I have a question that you might be able to help me. My question is:
> 	
> 	"Will I be accused of assault for beating the shit out of a
> 	 customer, if he really, really verbally insulted me?"
> 
> Thanks for the reply, and have a HAPPY NEW YEAR!!
> 

If you do ignore the insults and not let them affect you at all, you could be
accused of being in control of your mind.

MT.
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: bsimon@elvis.stsci.edu (Bernie Simon)
Subject: Re: Gung-Fu
Organization: None. This saves me from writing a disclaimer.
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 17:10:59 GMT

All the external styles of Kung Fu are derived from Shaolin, so the
fact that a school teaches Shaolin Chuan-Fa doesn't tell much about
what is actually taught.
--
Bernie Simon	(bsimon@stsci.edu)		ad astra per aspera

Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: drury@helix.nih.gov (Richard Drury)
Subject: Re: Kicking someone's xxx.
Organization: National Institutes of Health
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1992 18:13:37 GMT

ckuan@fraser.sfu.ca (Chiow Min Kuan) writes:
>Hi netters, I am working for a restaurant in downtown Vancouver, Canada.
>
>I have a question that you might be able to help me. My question is:
>	
>	"Will I be accused of assault for beating the shit out of a
>	 customer, if he really, really verbally insulted me?"
>
>Thanks for the reply, and have a HAPPY NEW YEAR!!

No question about it.  Words are one thing, but when you escalate
a verbal altercation to the level of physical violence, the law
says you are now the bad guy.  And the ensuing criminal action
is just foreplay.  After he sues you, your employer, your MA
instructor, and anyone else who has assets and any arguably
relevant connection to you, you'll wish it was just the cops you
had to deal with.  Just apologize to the guy and then piss in his
soup.
--
Richard A. Drury
drury@helix.nih.gov
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: bobsarv@microsoft.com (Bob Sarver)
Subject: Thai kickboxing
Date: 27 Dec 92 03:52:10 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corp.
Distribution: world		


Hi.  First time poster to this group.  I have a question or two that I
would like the more knowledgeable folks to answer, please.

My background:  red belt in International TaeKwonDo; haven't practiced
for a couple of years so "rusty" is the operative term here.  I was going
to start up again, but in talking to a friend of mine, he suggested 
muay thai instead.  He says (he is a five-discipline black belt) that
the thai kickboxers usually beat the ever-living shit out of anyone
else at open martial arts tournaments.

1.  Is this true, or is it just the conceit that each discipline seems to
have for itself?  I haven't been to any tournaments where thai kickboxing
was featured, so I can't say for sure.

2.  If it is true, then why does anyone else bother to study other
disciplines?  I mean, what is the point?

3.  Does it operate on the poomseh/kata training principle, or is thai
kickboxing more like american judo, where there is less emphasis on the
traditional forms?

thanks much.



Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: sog@craycos.com (Steve Gombosi)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Re: where to buy a CLUB for my car
Date: 22 Dec 92 16:23:23 GMT
Organization: Cray Computer Corporation

In article <1992Dec18.213931.12473@ms.uky.edu> cyeomans@ms.uky.edu (Charles Yeomans) writes:
>Next California will outlaw the practice of martial arts.

"Nope, officer...this isn't a martial art! It's an Okinawan folk dance.
Yessirree!"

Hey, it's worked before...

Steve
From: mikel@Apple.COM (Mikel Evins)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: More boring ki/qi/chi & science
Date: 23 Dec 92 19:47:25 GMT
Organization: Apple Computer Inc, Cupertino, CA

In article <1992Dec23.145317.4714@srg.srg.af.mil> schan@birch.srg.af.mil (Stephen Chan x4485) writes:
>In article <75879@apple.apple.COM> mikel@Apple.COM (Mikel Evins) writes:
>>In the case of qi I have yet to see a theory of qi that made any
>>predictions that could be confirmed or disconfirmed. In terms
>>of philosophy of science that means that so far there is nothing 
>>to investigate.
>
>	In my experience, I have seen lots of examples of qi based theories
>with predictive qualities. What do you think underlies Eastern concepts of
>diet & medicine?
>	Why have you overlooked such an obvious model?

I haven't overlooked it; it isn't a scientific model (in fact, neither
is much of Western medicine).

>	I have no experience with *ANY* strange mystical powers which many
>people seem to associate with qi. But I have grown up an environment where qi
>was the model for understanding health and diet - i.e. if you feel like THIS,
>then this class of foods will help the condition, while THAT class of foods
>will make it worse. The model was pretty consistently accurate.

I've had the same experience; I am not arguing that qi theories
are useless or wrong.

>>thing as qi, but it does mean that I'm not going to complain 
>>about science being blinkered or prejudiced because it doesn't
>
>	You see, you still don't see the focal point of my arguments. You are
>still defending this abstract ideal of SCIENCE, when my argument rests on how
>you can't seperate science from the scientists, and that scientists (like
>other people) suffer from bias, but they can use the concepts and language of
>science to mask their own biases.

I am doing no such thing, and am making no attempt to separate
science from the people who do it. I am only saying something analogous
to saying that if you want to play badminton then you had better
use rackets and a badminton bird, not polo ponies and a puck.
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: "Michael J. McHugh" <p00065@psilink.com>
Subject: Looking for Tai Chi Class/Teacher in Boston Area
Reply-To: mchugh@tivoli.com
Organization: Tivoli Systems
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1992 16:36:38 GMT
X-Mailer: PSILink-DOS (3.3)

I am looking for a Tai Chi Teacher that teached classes on the weekends.

I travel just about every week with my job and I would not be able to 
commit to going to a class during the week.

I would appreciate any phone numbers or leads that people could give me.

Please send me the responses in e-mail at the address below.  I don't 
read the conference regularly and won't see the response unless you mail 
it to me. 

Thanks,

Mike McHugh				mchugh@tivoli.com
TIVOLI Systems, Inc.			Voice: 617-621-7140
One Kendall Square, Suite 2200		Fax:   617-621-7141
Cambridge, MA 02139			Pager: 800-SKY-PAGE, PIN - 97339
From: wrat@unisql.UUCP (wharfie)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: attack vs. harmony
Date: 28 Dec 92 16:26:47 GMT
Organization: UniSQL, Inc., Austin, Texas, USA

In article <1992Dec24.231856.6361@desire.wright.edu> jchristian@desire.wright.edu writes:
>What if I'm walking down the street one night on the college nightclub strip
>and some guy swing at me out of nowhere?  Do I have to wait for him to attack?

	(Uhh, hasn't he already attacked you?)   To help illustrate my
way of thinking, I'd move so that the punch didn't hit me, and perhaps 
apply some controlling technique so that I could assess his intentions 
instead of kicking him in the head two or three times and then breaking
his legs...  

>Is the attacker always going to be the one who's breaking the harmony?  Is it
>possible for the defender to break the harmony by not dealing with the
>confrontation?  And does it even matter?  I assume it does, so that we don't

	Ideally, there should be no confrontation.  The person who initiates
conflict is disrupting harmonious existence.  I think that my responsibilty
is to eliminate that conflict.  If a person shoves me all I must do is
allow that force to slide harmlessly past.  If a person tries to stick me
with a knife I may have to hurt him to make it impossible for him to disrupt
the harmony of my bodily functions :-) but it would be an error to continue
my attack once he is rendered harmless.
								wr


Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: shulick@navajo.ucs.indiana.edu (Sam Hulick)
Subject: Re: Electronic Self Defense Devices
Organization: Vallen Software
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 18:45:19 GMT

In article <JTCHEW-211292091719@b50-afrd4.lbl.gov>, JTCHEW@lbl.gov (Ad absurdum per aspera) says most sayishly:
>> have to be held against an assailant for 2-4 seconds.

Sorry to disappoint you, but some models don't stay on that long.  The
Omega brand only stays on for 1-1.5 seconds.

>I wonder what it feels like if you zap somebody who's got hold of you.
>And how long it has to recharge before you can administer another zap.  

'Omega' takes maybe 0.50 seconds to recharge.  As soon as the pretty
blue lights go out, you can do it again. :)

-- 
    // Amiga 3000   ___ \ Sam Hulick: shulick@indiana.edu (NeXTmail OK!)
   // 68030 25 MHz /__/\ \ My opinions wear combat boots.  Or whatever.
\\// OS 2.04       \__\/ / "Walk!  Not bloody likely.  I am going in a
 \/                     / taxi."  --George Bernard Shaw
From: robinson@cogsci.Berkeley.EDU (Michael Robinson)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: body memory
Date: 23 Dec 92 00:39:43 GMT
Organization: Institute of Cognitive Studies, U.C. Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: cogsci.berkeley.edu

In article <1992Dec22.095136.10288@siemens.co.at> ek@patty.gud.siemens.co.at (Ernst Krudl) writes:
>When learning Taiji beginners often state: I cannot remember, meaning
>they cannot remember in their (visual) mind, and are not aware of the
>body sense learning ability.
>So that was one part of the question, how to explain to the student, if he
>asks how he remembers.

This is similar to students who try to think the moves instead of feel 
them (without success, of course).

I usually tell students the centipede story:

  "One day someone asked the Centipede how he knew which foot to move first.
   He never walked again."


-- 
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Michael Robinson                          UUCP:   ucbvax!cogsci!robinson
                                        INTERNET: robinson@cogsci.berkeley.edu
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts