From: cassidy@cps.msu.edu (John J Cassidy)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: Super rp's
Date: 26 Sep 92 18:31:53 GMT
Reply-To: cassidy@cps.msu.edu (John J Cassidy)
Organization: Dept. of Computer Science, Michigan State University
Originator: cassidy@pacific.cps.msu.edu

In article <1992Sep25.204446.9859@news.columbia.edu> jhk6@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (John H Kim) writes:
>	John Cassidy has made a number of points which are true (although 
>I think in some cases it was a judicious use of selected truths to favor 
>Hero). There is one which I would take issue with. 

	Here, I would just like to make an interesting point.  Would it
surprise one if 1) I have played other games, 2) I collect and read as
many roleplay games as possible, 3) Hero system is all I use when I GM,
(though modified Hero, which my friends think is SO modified that they
call it "Jero", after Jared -> what the "J" stands for ) -- would it
suprise anyone that I would make most of my points in Hero's favor?  I
see most of the points in Hero's favor.  Sorry.  But that's the way I am
with all my areas of philosophy: socialism, Christianity, phenomenalism,
skepticism...  If I didn't see it that way, I wouldn't be it that way.

>
>cassidy@cps.msu.edu (John J Cassidy) writes:
>[cc multiple actions]
>>	On an adaptablity basis, that GURPS normals can move and attack
>>as quickly as Supers, it a weak point.  It demonstrates that although, 
>>Hero may be marginally weak in some of the lower point values, GURPS 
>>cannot simulate a power that we find in 4-color comics.  Heck, Batman
>>and Captain America can probably move much faster than normals.
>>
>>(	This is an argument you can't win:  because if GURPS allows 
>>a multi-attack, or a system that you may have added allows one, then 
>>Supers can, and your original point is invalid; if GURPS does not 
>>allow it, then that is a weakness in their ability to simulate 
>>certain comic powers.  For Hero, you could always set a maximum of
>>SPD 3 if you wanted, for GURPS to go the other way nothing could 
>>be done. )
>
>	GURPS does handle this point (although not very well, IMO). 
>GURPS, far more than most other games, publishes and encourages *optional 
>rules* - like the ones for multiple actions. One of the basic ideas of 
>GURPS Supers was that it would be realistic, with optional rules to cover 
>comic-book reality. 
>	OTOH, the multiple action rules are unbalanced and not well 
>integreted, IMO. Anyone who buys up his Move not only gets a Dodge that 
>makes him immune to almost anything - he also gets several actions in 
>a turn. Further, there are several non-integrated systems for multiple 
>actions - the superheroic (based on move), the Chambara fighting, and 
>the cinematic martial arts rules. 
>	Which is to say, GURPS does handle this point, but IMO, it does 
>not do it very well. 

	Well, John, thanks for the information, now I know that there
was an attempt to make Supers move multiple times for every move of
normals.  But that negates the statement said earlier ( which Brandon
Cope has already explained to me ) which seemed to me to imply that
GURPS handles "Wildcards-like" realism better than Hero because Supers
CAN'T move much faster than normals in GURPS.  I said in reply that that
seems like a weakness of GURPS, because it happens in some areas of the
source genre.  What I implied was the unwinnable argument is that either
GURPS and Hero handled multiple attacks, and so were equally capable of
abuse, or Hero handled it and GURPS didn't which seemed to me to be a
deficit of GURPS ability to simulate comics.  
	Now that you mention it, though, it does seem that my friend had
a character that could attack more than once a round.  And I think that
one of my experimental characters with a huge impaling attack, might
have had more attacks.  I wasn't sure about it, though, so I took the
word of someone that I figured played GURPS, and should know about it.
I thought that Brandon was making an argument that he apparently wasn't.
	Incidently, you can get the same effect from Hero, if you use
the Heroic rules, and just consider the Superhero rules to be optional.
You see GURPS stresses realism, and adds flexibility as an afterthought;
Hero tries for flexibility so that realism can be simulated, if that is
what you want.  This is kind-of suggested to me by the "modularization"
of the rules into "optional" rules.  Meanwhile Hero adds "optional"
rules to add realism: Bleeding, Critical Hit, Imapairing and Disabling
wounds, Knockdown, Hit Location.  All of these they say will slow combat
down.  To me: it's 6 of one and 1/2 dozen of the other.
	I like GURPS, just not as much as Hero.


>John Kim                    | "Deservin's got nothing to do with it"
>jhk6@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu |
>Columbia University         |                - William Munny, 'Unforgiven'

	John J Cassidy		cassidy@cps.msu.edu
	~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~	
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy,rec.games.frp