From: goid@zooid.guild.ORG (Will Steeves)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Men's vs. Women's Is (1)
Date: 20 Aug 92 04:10:18 GMT

Diane Bailey <dbailey@cix.clink.co.uk> writes...
DB> Robert Coleman writes...
DB> >The point was that women don't really know men's viewpoint,
DB> >because men themselves haven't given any thought to their real
DB>                         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
DB> >situation; whereas, women have thought about and expressed their
DB>                      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
DB> >feelings about their real situation for 20 years.  I feel that I
DB>                                                     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
DB> >have a much better understanding of women than you, personally,
DB> >^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
DB> >will ever have of men, because you've talked and I've listened. In
DB> >contrast, I talk and you essentially tell me to shut up.

DB> Mr Coleman, do you need anyone to point out that you have
DB> yourself here pinpointed exactly the problem; men have not
DB> thought about their situation.  We know men's viewpoint as
DB> researched and propagated by the best available means, but it is
DB> apparently incoherent and unintelligent.

When the women's movement started become very active, millions of men
*and* women thought that the positions of the women's movement were
not very well thought out.  It is no surprise that people now have
this same opinion of the Men's Movement, although I would have thought
that the Women's Movement will have realised its own past problems,
and applied that principle in an attempt to treat the Men's Movement
with *an open mind*, but apparently even THIS has been too much to
ask, from many feminist groups.

While I somewhat disagree with his statement that he "I have a better
understanding of women than you," since many feminists have attempted
to say that *their* realities include men (as there have ALSO been men
who have done the same to women), I think that your reply was also
somewhat unfair.

DB> Women have thought, then spoken, and you sort of listened.

This is, IMHO, *very* insulting, as you not only doubt Robert's opinion,
but his KNOWLEDGE.

DB> You personally, and your
DB> colleagues, just spoke, but didn't think, and have not the
DB> benefit of the thinking of other men as we have the benefit of
DB> the thinking and experience of countless women, yet you somehow,
DB> in a very male manner I'm afraid, expect us all to listen and
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
DB> obey nonetheless.

This is *VERY* stereotypical, Diane.  I *could* say that "you have
reacted in a very typical female manner" or "in a very typical
feminist manner," but I thought better of it.

And no, Robert does not expect to be "obeyed" ; These are *YOUR*
words, and not his.  He is *HOPING*, as I am, that people will listen
with open ears and an open mind, but this seems to be *way* too much
to ask.

DB> How do you think we feel, with that in mind, when the films of
DB> the battle play, when the remembrance marches and services
DB> feature those men as the heroes to be the equal of which no woman
DB> can aspire?  I'll tell you, it makes me sick.  When men try to
DB> use the inequalities if the draft (an extremely variable
DB> phenomenon, country by country) as an arguement _against_
DB> feminism, it makes me spit!

It is NOT an argument "against feminism" ; I do not know why you seem
to assume that anything Robert says, is an attack on feminism, but he
is attacking *the system* of drafting which mandated that only men be
drafted, and the sexist opinions of people who only believe that men
should fight wars.

DB> I do so wish that we had less of Mr Coleman's present style of
DB> writing on this conference.  Day after day there are hundreds of
DB> lines, masses of bandwidth, which I personally find deeply
DB> distressing and depressing for reason of its aggression, its
DB> deeply uninformed partisan nature and sheer unrelenting volume.

Surely, you would not say that feminism is "non partisan".  You are
quite sure that Robert has biases.  So do I.  *And so do you*, you
cannot deny it.  We *all* have biases of one sort or another, or we
would all be clones.

DB> As a British feminist of twenty years involvement and
DB> committment, and a long time student of the now more than 200
DB> years history of the women's movement, Mr Coleman's long
DB> arguements are to me just so reminiscent of ones that have gone
DB> before.

Indeed?  When have men ever complained that child custody laws gave an
unfair advantage to mothers?  When have men ever complained about the
societal expectation that men should be the breadwinners of families,
and that being with their children *must* by necessity come second
place?  And when have men ever complained of the prejudice that men
should be the only people to fight wars?

Surely, you have mistaken Robert's arguments for those of 1950's
traditionalists.  And if you are attempting to paint him as one of the
"New Traditionalists" of the Men's Movement, I would humbly say that
this opinion would not be correct.  Much of what he has said, has
definitely confirmed that he is *not*.

DB> And there have always been men who have said "I shall argue against
DB> your interests as long as you do not fight for mine too".

And Robert is not one of them.  Robert is NOT arguing against
consideration of women's issues.  What he is saying, as am I, that men
and women should *work together* for the better of both genders, not
just the well-being of women.  And he is NOT arguing against your
causes, he is arguing against the exclusivity of many in the feminist
movement, ie., that men's issues are not important or even invalid.

---
Will Steeves, goid@zooid.guild.org                      "Neil Hull is GOiD"
ZOOiD BBS, Toronto, Ontario - The Zoo Of Ids            "GOiDS Rule"
(416) 322-7876
---
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