HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: Zhai <PHIZHAI@UKCC.UKY.EDU>
Subject:      Patriotism--arbitary
Reply-To: Zhai <PHIZHAI@UKCC.UKY.EDU>
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 02:40:30 GMT

On the basis of the common ground of interests, we have many
series of alternatives to patriotism.  I will give three examples.
The series are arranged to begin with one's self-interests and end
with the interests of all human beings.  Between these two extremes
are of increasing universality in terms of interests.
     We know not only people in a shared geographic area has common
interests, but also people who belong to the same institution, or are
in the same age-bracket, etc., have their common interests as well.  Thus:



Geographic:                                         
  Oneself - family - neibougher - city - province - country - the world
                                                    //////
Institutional:
  Oneself - co-worker - one's company - the industry - connected industries
          - all industries - the whole society - all societies

Of Age:
  Oneself - of the same age - the age-bracket of 2 to which one belongs
          - the age-bracket of 10 ... ... - people of all ages


... ...

    Now suppose "patriotism" means to give one's priority of love to one's
own country.  Can we give any special reason to justify "patriotism"?  In
other words, what is so special about the country that obliges us to believe
that the country is more important than either one's city or the whole
world in the range of the first series?  "Country" is between two ends.
Only the two ends are special, which are self-love and universal love.
("Love-country-ism" does not merely mean that one ought to love one's
country.  It means that loving one's country is more important than loving
anything else in the series.  So not believing in patriotism does not mean
not loving one's country, as some netters might have thought).
   Furthermore, why should we treat geographic commonality as the basis of
interests instead of, for example, the institutional or the age-bracket?
That is, why is the first series more important than other possible
series in terms of interests?  There is no justification.
   Setting aside the problem of justification, we can try to explain why
people believe in "love-country-ism" (patriotism) but not other alternatives.
This may be due to the fact that a political state corresponds to a country
but not to anything else.  In other words, patriotism may be an ideology for
safeguarding a regeme's political power, but disguised as a principle for
the ultimate good.

Zhenming Zhai
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: IFCSS HQ <ifcss@WAM.UMD.EDU>
Subject:      Question about Birth Certificate (IFCSS HQ NR-4081)
Reply-To: IFCSS HQ <ifcss@WAM.UMD.EDU>
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 00:14:15 GMT
Comments: To: ccnl@utarlvm1.uta.edu, china-nt@uga.cc.uga.edu

**************************************************************
IFCSS Headquarters News Release No. 4081     December 15, 1992
           QUESTIONS ABOUT BIRTH CERTIFICATE
**************************************************************
Independent Federation of Chinese Students and Scholars (IFCSS)
   733 15th Street, N.W., Suite 440, Washington, D.C.20005
         Tel. (202)347-0017  Fax: (202)347-0018
                Email: ifcss@wam.umd.edu


           Questions about Birth Certificate
           =================================


Dear IFCSS Members:

     As the Administration is still in the transition period,
we have not made any progress regarding the implementation
of the '92 Chinese Student Protection Act.

     However, the HQ has prepared a Q&A article regarding some
issues to which we do have reasonable answers. The article was
published in World Journal (Weekly Edition), and it will be
published in IFCSS Newsletter. There is an email edition of
the IFCSS Newsletter maintained by IFCSS Chinese Community
Information Center. For more information about the CCIC and
its services, please send email to      ccic-info@ifcss.org

     The following question was not discussed in the article.
It is about the birth certificate. From the general CSS
community, the HQ has learned that:

     a. Many students were told that a birth certificate would
be required to apply for adjustment of status.
     b. Many students have asked their families and friends in
China to apply for such certificates;
     c. Some were rejected by the Chinese Public Security Bureau
which asked for a recommendation letter from the Chinese diplomatic
offices in the U.S.;
     d. Some Public Security Bureaus raised the application
fees to 300-400 Chinese Yuan.

     Please pay attention to the following advise:

     It is not necessary to have a birth certificate from China.
The INS has been accepting passport as a legally acceptable
document for date of birth in cases of Chinese nationals.

     Thanks for your attention.


*********************************************************************
*                 IFCSS Headquarters Office                         *
*~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~*
*                   The Missions of IFCSS                           *
* Promote freedom, democracy, human rights and rule of law in China *
* Assist the development of  scienece, culture and economy in China *
* Represent the interests of Chinese students and scholars in U.S.A *
* IFCSS is a non-profit organization and has tax-exempt status.     *
*********************************************************************
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: Ignatius Ding <ding@HPSMTC1.CUP.HP.COM>
Subject:      Somalia Relief Effort
Reply-To: Ignatius Ding <ding@HPSMTC1.CUP.HP.COM>
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 01:46:18 GMT

             * * * For The Starving Somali Childrens * * *


      In the spirit of "Operation Restore Hope", some of us in th
Chinese-American community have decided to launch a donation drive to raise
funds for the Somalia relief effort.  We believe that the matter is so urgent.
None of us can sit on our hands to wait for someone to knock on our front doors
asking for help.  There is no boundary of race, nationality, religion, or
anything else when we face the needs of saving lives.

      We have organized a fundraising party to solicit donations.  It will be
held at the Chinese American Culture Center, 1269 Forgewood, Sunnyvale (Ph.
408-747-0394) on December 30th.  We will start a year-end party inviting the
general public to attend at no charge.  We will provide snacks, drinks, and
music to entertain the guests.  All expenses will be paid by the families of
our friends.  The program will start at 7:00PM.  We will hold an auction at
8:00PM with items donated by the sponsoring families and various organizations.
All proceeds will go directly to the Santa Clara Valley Chapter of the Red
Cross.  We will request donors to write their checks to Red Cross designated to
the "Somalia Relief" effort.

      This project have the support of local Catholic churches, Baptists,
Buddhists, social, ethnic, and professional organizations to participate.  We
also have some human rights and educational organizations joining us.  I am
affiliated with the Chinese Institute of Engineers, an institution with more
than a hundred old history, Silicon Valley for Democracy in China, an
international human rights organization, and several other smaller groups.  We
will invite other ethnic groups to join us too.  For example, we will contact
the Coordination Council for the Central/Eastern Europeans, an alliance of the
Eurasians from Poland, Hungary, Baltic States, and the Commonwealth of the
Independent States.

      Anyone who is interested to get invloved in this project and/or can get
other organizations to co-sponsor it, please send me an e-mail at this address.
Happy holidays to you all.


Ignatius Y. Ding
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: Wing Ng <wing@pegasus.com>
Subject:      Re: Washington Post editorial
Reply-To: Wing Ng <wing@pegasus.com>
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 02:41:47 GMT
Comments: To: china-nt@uga.cc.uga.edu

That article was clearly labeled as an editorial, i.e. an opinion
rather than a statement of fact.

Wing
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: lu_j@cubldr.colorado.edu
Subject: help
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 22:10:23 GMT

Hi, everybody. Could anyone help me to find a Chinese graduate student named
Zhang XiaoLiang, studying at INSTITUTO NACIONAL DE INVESTIGACAO CIENTIFICA in
Portugal. His e-mail address is DX471@ALFA.IST.RCCN.PT. I tried but the mail
was bounced back for "unkown host" I very much appreciate any help.

Thanks.

LU_J@cubldr.colorado.edu

Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: yjj@rhea.ctr.columbia.edu (Yuan Jiang)
Subject: Re:      FWD for Mr. Anonymous - More on Patriotism (3)
Organization: Columbia University Center for Telecommunications Research
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 16:59:52 GMT
X-Posted-From: rhea.ctr.columbia.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In article <Bz3Kp4.7ED@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> Xiaowen Li <lix@CRSA.BU.EDU> writes:
>This is a forwarding.
>
>============================================================================
>  More on Patriotism (3)
>
>"countries", as outdated, ridiculous, ignoble, unreasonable, etc. etc.,
>without at the same time providing any real, practical and feasible
>alternatives.  An earful of "humanity" and other fancy stuff which they
>themselves may not believe in is usually all we can hear.
>
Come on, a new world is shaping.  People in the world who are better
off are eager to feed to help those who are starving to death.  They
even send soldiers abroad to do that (I am not sure it is a good sign
or not).  I see UN going to be the government of the Earth Confederacy
within 100 years before CCP's basic party lines expire.  This is a
real, practical and feasible alternative although it may not be
the best choice.

>Or we could say they are truly the sons and daughters of the CCP elite
>who are also so interested only in "destroying the old" as the "new"
>would automatically and magically take care of itself (Bu4Po4 Bu4Li4).

This association is too wild.  As I said, the sons and daughters
of CCP elite are more practical than anyone.

>Or they are the latter-day Hippies whose mission it is to see everyone
>either become a monk/nun or join their ranks to start experimenting
>with all those fancy novelties including the not-so-new LSD and other

Current western liberals do have roots in the 60's Hippy movement.
When a society is more tolerant to new ideas, the side effect has
reduced.  A society need visions.  Although not all dreams are
visions, visions are born out of dreams.  So, we need dreamers.
Don't brush them off so easily.  Take an example which most people
can agree on, environmental concerns were born from the "L" ideas.

>drugs.  Do we not see that already happen in China, even though it may

This is a too far association.  The problem in china has nothing to do
with the Western "L"s.

About the nobleness of patriotism.
Patriotism has long been regarded as a passion to others.  In a
selfish world, of course, a feeling toward others are noble.
But, as I pointed out last time, patriotism is not a feeling
toward others.  It is a feeling or attitude toward MY ....
It is a selfish passion.  YaGui is right to say that patriotism
is not noble in this sense.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: CHINA@UTKVX.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Patriotism & HK demo.
Reply-To: CHINA@UTKVX.BITNET
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 06:15:06 GMT
Comments: To: china-nt@uga.bitnet

>From:  UTKVX::IN%"wing@PEGASUS.COM"  "Wing Ng" 11-DEC-1992 05:31

>> For the HK case, please hint me more, because I don't know which aspect
>> you are talking about.

>In my opinion, CG is appealing to all Chinese people to support them
>against the U.K. in the HK dem. dispute.  But they are not fighting
>U.K. "aggression", they are fighting demands for democracy among
>their own people.  When a govt. is fighting its own people, appeals
                    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>for "patriotism" is nonsense.
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Sorry for the late reply. I fully agree with you that the HK dem. is not
at all a "patriotism" issue. I also believe that there is a room for
success as said earlier, and hence whether the success will be achieved
should be much a matter of how it is operated.

The question for us oversea CSS is, what can we do for it ? Probably,
we should lobby IFCSS for participation, which I hope is a "moderate" one
in order not to complicate the problem.

Jing Zhang
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: CHINA@UTKVX.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Mr. Jinghong Li
Reply-To: CHINA@UTKVX.BITNET
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 22:56:51 GMT
Comments: To: china-nt@uga.bitnet

>From:  UTKVX::IN%"jli@AMSC01.ENGR.UDAYTON.EDU"  "Jinghong Li" 14-DEC-1992 16:41
>Jing Zhang's repeat quoting of my title in ifcss is obviously inttentional
>and qualifys as a "attacking technique".

Thanks for telling me this, Mr. Jinghong Li. I really didn't know it when
I quote your title. I promise you that I won't do it.

>Well, actually he knows me
>much more than that %-( , hope he will not use titles, such as "a friend
>of my roomate" and etc., in the future.

So here we goes again. Let me tell netters this in case they are confused:

Mr. Jinghong Li is the friend of a friend of mine who used to be my roomate.
But he really doesn't have to be so *nervious*, for that I hardly "learned"
anything from my friend about him. We'd talked about him only once, taking
less than a minute: my friend told me that they used to be classmates in
English training, and I told him that Mr. Li is "a thoughtful poster on
China-Net". (Yes, I quote.)

>Secondly, there are many ways of representing someone.  When you go on
>a nationwide campaign asking PUBLIC to sign up with you, don't you think
>there are some responsibilities involved ?  For example, the US S&L
>bank scandal, are you suggesting only those who were rubbed can cry out
>for justice - others should all have their mouth shut ?

(1) Of course, I think "there are some responsibilities". But I also think
SUMFN was conducted responsibly, evidenced by that it has not been accused
of misrepresentation by those whom it had represented. In comparison,
the representation of IFCSS on MFN issue was a lot more controversial in
my opinion.

(2) I can't believe you are equivalizing SUMFN to "the US S&L bank scandel".

>>(3) Furthermore, our Council Chairman put much of his attention to Mr.
>>Luh's "behind scene" activity after his resignation. Tell us what is wrong
>>with that. I wish our "major" legislator --- Council Chairman's
>>undertsanding to democracy was not that Mr. Wang Yang or Mr. Li Zuofeng
>>should be forbidden of the right of public activity, --- for their
>>resignation and for after their resignation, their activity has to
>>be "behind the scene".
>
>No, of course not mine, that was yours, or maybe what you want
>others to believe in.  Ask the people you mentioned, did my posts help
>them to more carefully and acurately re-write the campaign letter ?

I try to examine your argument as well as to appreciate your good work.

>Last but not least, Mr. Zhang seems having hard time to recover from
>the then heated debates.  Let me give him an advise: Life gose on.
>Please get over with those bitterness, there are more funs in life
>if you look forward.

I really don't want to reply to this part, beacause it will be much worse
than calling your "title" or "name": I immediately recall once you were
said to be "laughably ignorant", at referring to the people you want me
to "ask".

>Jinghong Li
>For and Only For Myself

Jing Zhang
Sorry to netters for these nonsense.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: "micky wong" <micky.wong@canrem.com>
Subject: wen yuan kai vs fang ri z
Reply-To: "micky wong" <micky.wong@canrem.com>
Organization: Canada Remote Systems
Distribution: talk
Date: 12 Dec 92 18:20:59 EST

In Article: <CHEN.92Dec9191250@haydn.ee.uec.ac.jp>
   Subject: Wen Yuan Kai vs Fang Ri Zhi
      From: chen@haydn.ee.uec.ac.jp (Chen Jie) writes:

>Professor Wen yuankai, is famous for his reforming theories and actions
>in China, and so was Professor Fangrizhi. Here, a question we should ask
>is how to appraise them from the viewpoints of China reformation? My
>opinion is that Prof. Wen is a respectable man while Prof. Fang is not.

My view is your posting is not going to have any effect on those who
hold respect of Prof. Fang.

However, you have every right to waste your pathetic efforts.  :-)

lines deleted for brevity.
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Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: zzuo@iastate.edu (Zhiqi Zuo)
Subject: Re: D & P fighters
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, IA
Distribution: talk
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 05:13:26 GMT

In article <~~{5K~~}.92Dec10194636@owl.bunny.rhic.bnl.gov> ~~{5K~~}@bunny.rhic.bnl.gov (~~{5K6,F=~~}) writes:
>
>Aren't D-fighters and P-fighters the same by definition ?  ;-)

How about "similar"?

>D-fighters: fight FOR democracy, whatever that is in their minds.
>P-fighters: fight AGAINST patriotism, whatever that is in their minds. 

:}

Contrary to what some people bear in mind, there are also P+D-fighters.

:-{>-------------

From: ding@hpsmtc1.cup.hp.com (Ignatius Ding)
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 21:32:51 GMT
Subject: Encouraging Info.
Organization: Hewlett Packard, Cupertino
From: C0370@UNIVSCVM.BITNET (Diane)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
Subject: Clinton's New Move
Date: 15 Dec 92 16:41:54 GMT
Reply-To: Diane <C0370@UNIVSCVM.BITNET>
Organization: Indiana University

It seems to me that American leaders always prioritize their national
interests on the top when they come to handle the international affair.
Mr. Clinton is no exception. His line of Chinese affair was revised
a few times in less than two months. It's obvious that he is more
flexible and pragmatic than many people thought while less integral
and consistent than some people expected.

I guess those 'world citizens' and 'D-fighters' might feel puzzled and
lost. ;-(

It's time to wake up, dude.

Diane
From: "micky wong" <micky.wong@canrem.com>
Subject: patriotism
Reply-To: "micky wong" <micky.wong@canrem.com>
Organization: Canada Remote Systems
Distribution: talk
Date: 11 Dec 92 19:28:02 EST

In Article: <Byy7tB.2DG@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>
   Subject: patriotism
      From: Ye <stacc0@QUANTUM.FIU.EDU> writes:


>President: ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can
>do for your country.

>Asylee: ask not what I did for my country, ask what my country did to
>me.

>Traitor: ask what my country did to me, and ask what I can do for your
>country.

>Investor: ask what I can do for your country, and tell me what your country
>can do for me.

>'World citizen': ask not what I can do for my country, ask not what I
>can do for your country, ask not what I can do for his country...

>Bitter lover (Ku3 Lian4 Er2): ask not what my country did to me, ask
>what I want to do for my country.

>U.S. protected 'Chinese patriot': ask what my country can do for me,
>and ask what your country can do for me.

>Illegal alien: please don't ask...

>Did I miss anyone?


You have missed the CCP.   8-)

CCP:  Ask not what the party had done to you.
      Ask not how many creative lives the party had wasted.
      Ask not how many innocent lives the party had killed.
      Ask not what the party had promised you before.
      You must believe what the party is going to promise you for
      tomorrow,
      It is your duty to love your country and your country is the
      party.
      You must remember the party is above the law, above the people,
      above the country.
      If you don't, the party knows how to fix you with the TANKS on the
      TAM.

Do you like to have more?

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Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: XIAOJIAN@CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject:      Forward as requested (Re: Real thing rather than cheap talk)
Reply-To: XIAOJIAN@CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 15:26:38 GMT
Comments: To: china-nt@uga.cc.uga.edu

From:   IN%"echeng@phys.psu.edu"  "Eddie Cheng" 15-DEC-1992 08:13

=====================================================================
I realize that it might be senseless and silly in doing so, but I
understand your point and position and am willing to help a little bit.

I am a poor postdoc (yes, not being well paid, unfortunately).  But
I offer to match, in the same way you offered, the donation from
full-time job holders you mentioned in your post.  My offer could
also be retrospective, i.e., just tell me how much you donated in
the *past*, I am also willing to match that *now*.

At the same time, I would *very* *very* much appreciate if any
authoritive person in IFCSS could tell us what has been going on
with IFCSS 6.4 foundation, if any donation is destinated there.
Last year we heard many stories about that (archived in both china-net
and IFCSS Council record).  I have raised this question before,
but so far I never saw a satisfactory public answer.  At least,
let us know how much fund available for political prisoners in
China is in IFCSS' control and how much has been sent to them?

Just a disclaimer:  this is not my usual way of doing things and
I do *NOT* like it.  But as I understand the situation, I *have*
to do it this way.

Regards,


         Eddie


In article <BzAMFC.GMB@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> you write:
>Shizhong Chen wrote:
>>(than what?). Did lix care if the wives and kids of the political prisoners
>>think so? The wife and daughter of Ren Wanding are living on the streets
>>of Beijing, did lix care if they think so?
>
>>4. "Shame on you, who love China FROM ABROAD ONLY!" I conclude with quoting
>>Xiong Bo.
>
>>Shizhong Chen
>
>According to long experience on China-nt, especially the latest hot debate
>around Xiaowen Li, some netters such as Shizhong Chen, Xiong Bo,
>Zhang Yun Fei and Li Jinghong always sound like that they "trully" and
>"most" care human rights in China, especially the family of political
>prisoners suggested in the above post.
>
>Today, no more cheap talk. I am a poor student, but I will match any amount
>of money any of the four netters I mention above will claim to donate
>to the family of Ren Wanding, as long as he is also a student. (I cannot
>match the amount donated by someone who has a full-time job until I get my
>own job). If you four D-fighters cannot accept my challenge, better think
>it over before accusing me and others whether you take human rights and
>democracy as serious as I am.
>
>
>
>William Deng
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china