HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: fritz@hpfcbig.sde.hp.com (Gary Fritz (tmp))
Newsgroups: alt.business.multi-level
Subject: Re: MLM books
Date: 3 Sep 92 16:12:04 GMT
Reply-To: Gary Fritz <fritz@hpfcbig.sde.hp.com>
Organization: HP SESD, Fort Collins, CO
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1scd1 PL4

I should save the message I send out on this every few months...  :-)

Bottom line:  Starting an MLM is AT LEAST as hard as starting a "traditional"
business.  In the US at least, it is fraught with legal mazes and problems.
You have all the difficulties of building a "downliine" that you'd have
if you were in someone else's MLM, but you have the management overhead of
running a company to boot.

More importantly, though, starting an MLM company is NOT for amateurs.
No slight intended, but reading a few books from the local bookseller's
is NOT going to give you the level of experience and expertise you need.
At the *very least* I would recommend several years' experience of
*successfully* building downlines (of at least 2-500) in another company.
This would give you a much clearer understanding of the dynamics of how
an MLM company, and the people within it, work.

If you insist on going ahead with your venture, I strongly recommend you
find a solicitor who is experienced with MLM.  In the US there are mountains
of regulations to adhere to, and ignorance of the law can get you into
major trouble.  Pay your "insurance" and have a *knowledgeable* solicitor 
look it over.

I certainly understand your desire to start an MLM.  I have that as one of
my long-term ideas/goals too.  But first I intend to put in my time working
on my current MLM, and learn in somebody else's game.  I have an advantage
that my company is small, and the home office is only an hour away.  I am
closely tuned in to what happens in the company and how things are working.
If we continue to advance the way we are now, we will be quasi-officers
in the company within a year or less, and that will accellerate my learning.
After several years of that I think I might be ready to start thinking about
my own company.  Anything before that would be an extraordinarily risky
gamble in an area I know far too little about.

Gary
From: fritz@hpfcbig.sde.hp.com (Gary Fritz (tmp))
Newsgroups: alt.business.multi-level
Subject: Re: Amway
Date: 3 Sep 92 15:56:04 GMT
Reply-To: Gary Fritz <fritz@hpfcbig.sde.hp.com>
Organization: HP SESD, Fort Collins, CO
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1scd1 PL4

Marker Man writes:
:     Yes, this newsgroup would be an ideal forum to share ideas about
: recruiting/sponsoring, or any of the issues we have in common.

Yes and no.  You crossposted to alt.business.multi-level (which IS an
ideal forum for these and similar discussions) AND to misc.entrepreneurs
(which IS NOT).  Please continue this discussion in a.b.m-l only!

Gary
Newsgroups: alt.business.multi-level
From: steve@unipalm.co.uk (Steve Ladlow)
Subject: MLM books
Organization: Unipalm Ltd., 216 Cambridge Science Park, Cambridge CB4 4WA, UK
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 17:30:24 GMT

I am looking very seriously at starting MLM in 1993. I already know some of 
the basic ideas and principals and have some knowledge of how a couple of 
companies are run. What I want to do is read up on some useful books to 
increase my
knowledge and to give me some pointers as to what to consider before 
starting and what to consider once started. I visited my local 
bookstore and found five
titles. Can anyone recommend any of these. I am based in the UK and may not
be able to obtain other US books too easily.

Build Your Own Network Sales Business - Kishel and Kishel

Multi Level Marketing - Peter Clother

How To Suceed In Network Marketing - Leonard S Hawkins

How To Make Big Money In Multi-Level Marketing - Roller

Success In Multi-Level Marketing - Scott

Steve Ladlow
steve@unipalm.co.uk
From: Eli.Mantel@bbs.oit.unc.edu (Eli Mantel)
Newsgroups: alt.business.multi-level
Subject: Re: AMWAY
Date: 4 Sep 92 01:51:48 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Extended Bulletin Board Service

Gary Fritz <fritz@hpfcbig.sde.hp.com> writes:
>aryeh@cash.ucsc.edu (Aryeh Friedman) writes:
>: ... when are MLM folks going to figure that MLM is only
>: the biggest legal scam in history.  
>
>Puh-LEEZE.  Give me a break.

Okay, I will concede that there could theoretically be a legit MLM,
so is it okay if we change this to:
	Amway is this huge (albeit legal) scam.

Amway has been operating for 30 years.  The overall sales may
be great, but average per distributor sales are negligible.

The "scam" is, (and every distributor with half a brain KNOWS it's a scam)
(feel free to be offended if you don't know it's a scam) -- that you
can expect that, on average, the people in your downline are going to lose
money, or at least earn less than minimum wage for their efforts.

It's a scam because, after 30 years, there are still people around who
are not Amway distributors themselves, and whose parents are not Amway
distributors... but if every distributor had successfully recruited ONLY one
distributor each year, who found it wortwhile to STAY with Amway, then
the only people left to recruit would be your own children.

It's a scam because, you bring in the johns, you roll them, and every once
in a while, one of the johns starts rolling the other johns.

Even a bank robber feels that he "earns" his living.
			Eli Mantel (eli.mantel@bbs.oit.unc.edu)
--
   The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the University of
     North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the Campus Office for Information
        Technology, or the Experimental Bulletin Board Service.
           internet:  bbs.oit.unc.edu or 152.2.22.80
From: fritz@hpfcbig.sde.hp.com (Gary Fritz (tmp))
Newsgroups: alt.business.multi-level
Subject: Re: MLM books
Date: 3 Sep 92 16:20:13 GMT
Reply-To: Gary Fritz <fritz@hpfcbig.sde.hp.com>
Organization: HP SESD, Fort Collins, CO
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1scd1 PL4

Oh, I forgot to add something:  I have a friend who investigates and
reports on MLMs for a living.  He follows the MLM industry in the US
(and overseas to some extent) VERY closely on a day-to-day basis.
He has seen hundreds, maybe thousands, of companies started by amateurs
go under in the 15 years he's been doing this.

His favorite analogy (when he talks to me, anyway :-) is the computer
industry.  Imagine, he says, a couple of computer-illiterate people
observing the industry.  "Why heck, Mabel!  Lookit all them folks buyin'
compooters!  We can make us a buncha money if we get in this bizniss!!  
All we gotta do is find us a cheap teevee (that's "telly" to you, Steve :-) 
and a typewriter, and glue 'em together, and we got us a COMPOOTER!!"

Obviously someone with such an utter lack of understanding of computers
would have virtually NO chance of success in the computer industry.
The sad thing, says my friend, is that many people starting MLM companies
have just as foggy an understanding of the MLM industry -- and that's why
99% or more fail within a few years.

I suggest that if you are getting your knowledge from the bookseller's
(and from books that are aimed at MLM *distributors*, not company owners),
that you are in grave danger of "gluing a typewriter to a telly."  

Beware.

Best regards,
Gary
Newsgroups: alt.business.multi-level
From: Marker Man
Subject: X-posting & Amway Flamers
Reply-To: Marker Man
Organization: The Original MLM
Distribution: alt.business.multi-level
Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1992 19:37:57 GMT

    My apologies to those entrepreneurial purists who were getting my
MLM postings in m.e.  Those were inadvertent cross-postings, and won't
be repeated.

    In reply to Fritz - I do NOT lie to or mislead people, I AM up front	
about who I represent, and I AM proud to be associated with this corp-
oration.  No sleazoid tactics for me - I enjoy sleeping at night.   BTW - 
you can't sponsor somebody into this organization without them knowing
the company name - it's printed on the application - so why people would
attempt to "hide" the company name is beyond me.

MM 
Newsgroups: alt.business.multi-level
From: klm@atlanta.dg.com (Kim Medlin)
Subject: Melaluka
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 92 14:31:08 GMT
Organization: Data General Corp. ASSD, Atlanta, GA

I was recently introduced to a MLM called Melaluka (I hope I haven't butchered the spelling too badly).  The plan was appealing because retailing was discouraged.  The plan I saw encouraged personal use of the products and bringing in new associates.

Any feedback about the pros and cons about this company and its marketing plan?

Thanks.

--
Kim Medlin                             Email:    klm@beau.atlanta.dg.com
Atlanta Systems Integration Services   CEO:      Kim Medlin:DGC
Data General Corporation               Phone:    404 448-6072 ext 2007
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Be nice, because all we really have in this old world is each other.
  ... Joey the Clown, 1964
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The opinions expressed herein are my own and not those of my employer.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: jcb (Jim Becker)
Newsgroups: alt.business.multi-level
Subject: Experiences with Jafra requested.
Date: 27 Aug 92 23:41:29 GMT
Return-Path: <jcb>
To: postnews


Hi there!

My  SO  has  been involved with Jafra, and really likes their products
and people. Does anyone out there have any advice for her in terms  of
do's and don't of getting more involved with this organization?

i'd appreciate email, and will summarize. thanks!

-jim

--
 -Jim Becker / jcb@ncd.com   /   Network Computing Devices, Inc. (NCD)
Newsgroups: alt.business.multi-level
From: j_sandoval@csc32.enet.dec.com (Julian Sandoval The King or Rock and Roll)
Subject: ********
Reply-To: j_sandoval@csc32.enet.dec.com (Julian Sandoval The King or Rock and Roll)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corp. (VMS Software Support - Colorado)
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 17:25:17 GMT

Boy, lot of Amway Slamming going on...  I happen to be in the business to only buy products from myself; great products.  In my line of sponsorship, I know quite a few people that are successfull at it.  The potential is definately there to make some money and residual income, but it is like anything else, you have to work at it to be successfull.  The only thing I can't stand to hear is somebody slamming the business because they knew a friend that had an uncle that had a sister, that knew a priest, that 









had a mother, that had a sister that was in the business and they never made any money.(Whewwww) or said that AMWAY was a scam.  How many times did that person show the plan, consistently and persistently????

Anyways, like I said, I am in it for the products.  I want to know if there is anyone out there that has purchased the AMGARD II Home Perimeter Alarm System.  I am interested in purchasing it, but would like some feedback from anyone that may have this system.

Julian Sandoval
Xref: sparky alt.business.multi-level:434 misc.entrepreneurs:2704
From: aryeh@cash.ucsc.edu (Aryeh Friedman)
Newsgroups: alt.business.multi-level,misc.entrepreneurs
Subject: Re: Definition
Date: 4 Sep 1992 19:18:34 GMT
Organization: Marsnet
NNTP-Posting-Host: cash.ucsc.edu

In article <1992Sep4.151050.28453@spdc.ti.com> serafin@epcot.spdc.ti.com (Mike Serafin) writes:
>      entreprenuer : one who organizes, manages, and assumes 
>                   the risk of a business or enterprise

This does not seem to fit MLM! If you can demostrate that you have the benefits
as well as the risk I might shut up.
Newsgroups: alt.business.multi-level
From: fritz@hpfcbig.sde.hp.com (Gary Fritz (tmp))
Subject: Re: johng and Amway
Reply-To: Gary Fritz <fritz@hpfcbig.sde.hp.com>
Organization: HP SESD, Fort Collins, CO
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1scd1 PL4
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 22:05:29 GMT

Since "Marker Man" has such a cute and non-replyable address (or is he
really crchh639!zappa?  who cares), I have to post this rather than
emailing him:

In article <1992Sep03.203124.17168@bnr.ca> you write:
>      I don't know where this newsgroup appears on YOUR system, but on mine
> the title is alt.business.multi-level.  I create SW products on my day job -
> that's definitely NOT what I want in a sideline business.

I don't know what newsreader you're using, but I suggest you learn about
"crossposting".  Your messages, including this one, were posted to BOTH
misc.e and alt.b.m-l.  (I am posting this one to a.b.m-l only, and would
request any other respondents to do the same.)

>      BTW - you have only proved your ignorance by relating the incident
> wherein you were approached about Amway.  If you understood the concept, you
> would have seen that it's a win-win situation.

Baloney.  I'm a staunch supporter of MLM and even Amway.  I've worked in
several MLMs and studied well over a hundred of them.  I believe I can
claim that I "understand the concept."  But the idea of lying to someone,
hiding your company name, etc., is just plain dishonest.  It's a major reason
for the bad reputation that MLM in general, and Amway in particular,
have developed over the years.

If you want to work in Amway, that's your business, and more power to you.
But be PROUD of what you do.  Be up-front about what you do and what company
you work with.  I know Amway reps who have built very solid businesses with
this kind of above-board approach.  Don't slink around making vague references
to "business opportunities" and refusing to admit you're associated with
the dreaded A-company.  If you don't like the reaction you get when you
say "Amway", then I suggest you should find another company.

Gary
From: aryeh@cash.ucsc.edu (Aryeh Friedman)
Newsgroups: alt.business.multi-level
Subject: Re: Food for Thought
Date: 4 Sep 1992 21:16:33 GMT
Organization: Marsnet
NNTP-Posting-Host: cash.ucsc.edu

In article <p1mn!nq.noring@netcom.com> noring@netcom.com (Jon Noring) writes:
>This is an excellent point.
>
>The biggest advantage of network marketing is that it is an excellent vehicle
>to produce a willable, residual income, which is a prerequisite for financial
>independence.  However, there can be other reasons, usually emotional and

As I have stated before the primary reason for starting a business should not
be to make money.  Statstical this has been shown as one of the worst investment
an indivual can make due to the odds of success to make a decent return you
should spread it a corss many concerns (like venture capablital does).  The only
reason why should starta business is to add wealth to society and as a by 
product you gain a portion.

>for them network marketing will not provide an outlet (at least directly) for
>fulfilling that burning desire.  Thank heavens there are people in our society
>who feel that way, otherwise we network marketers wouldn't have any decent
>products to market, would we?  Somebody has to manufacture, and somebody has
>to market (sounds almost Ecclesiastical) - you can't have one without the

Agreed but it should be the manufactor it self that does the marketing or
other well established and reliable firms such as distrubutors and retailers.

>Thus, what I am trying to say is that the best business vehicle for a person
>to focus their efforts on greatly depends on the reasons that person wants to
>get into business in the first place.  From my experience of having talked to
>well over 500 people over the last four years about this business, it turns
>out that the primary reasons that *most* people have for wanting their own
>business boils down to the perception that financial and personal independence
>is achievable only by being in your own business (which I believe is true
>except for a few rare exceptions).  Thus, IMHO, network marketing is the best

No wonder so many companies fail you must add value of some form to be a viable
company.  This is not a matter of income or such it is a matter of survial.

>vehicle for *most* aspiring business owners.

How can a company sruvive in the long run if it adds no value and produces no
wealth?

>To illustrate this better, I once actually talked a person out of doing
>network marketing after I determined that his life goals and interests would
>not be fulfilled in any way via network marketing (it was an interesting
>experience to say the least).  However, such cases are very rare indeed.
>After all, our primary purpose as network marketers is to help others achieve
>their life purpose and goals, and if our vehicle will not do that for them,
>we do not have a right to push this business down their throats.

If this is true I don't see how you can be so unversially generous with out
some real wealth to back it up which MLM doesn't create!
Newsgroups: alt.business.multi-level
From: cyclist@hubcap.clemson.edu (Barry Johnson)
Subject: Taxes and MLMs
Organization: Clemson University
Distribution: alt
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 20:23:33 GMT


Hi,
	I'm a new affiliate with a MLM called Consumer's Buyline.  I'm very
curious as to what this does to my tax status.  I know I'm taxable for
the income produced from this business, but am I (as I've heard)
eligible for the same tax write offs as other businesses: milage to
meetings, business dinners, phone calls, etc...?  Is this pretty
standard among MLMs?  I haven't called the "home office" yet, but I
will.  What are your experiences in this area?

Thanks...

Barry...
-- 
Personal Theory:  Socks are the larval form of wire coat-hangers.
   
Barry Johnson, Clemson University, CTS.   cyclist@hubcap.clemson.edu   
Xref: sparky alt.business.multi-level:392 misc.entrepreneurs:2598
Organization: The American University - University Computing Center
Date: Sunday, 23 Aug 1992 20:43:59 EDT
From: <SAYED@auvm.american.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.business.multi-level,misc.entrepreneurs
Subject: Is there FAQ for this group??

Hi
I was wondering if there is a FAQ for this newsgroup so I
can see what is allowed to be posted and what is not.

thanks in advance
Sayed.
From: reb@punch.EBay.Sun.COM (Bob Brown)
Newsgroups: alt.business.multi-level
Subject: Re: Starting an MLM...
Date: 31 Aug 92 17:48:08
Organization: Systar Technologies, Inc.
NNTP-Posting-Host: punch.ebay.sun.com
In-reply-to: uloren@mcl.ucsb.edu's message of 31 Aug 92 16:10:09 GMT

>>>>> uloren@mcl.ucsb.edu (Loren D. Koss) writes:



Loren> Since there is so much flack about current MLM's, what would be
Loren> the harm of starting a new one?  

Nothing bad about it, just risky. The challenge with a new MLM is that
it has the same risk as any business in terms of it's success and
survival--- 90% failure in the first 5 years.

Loren> It shouldn't be that difficult to start one that is a pure
Loren> profit potenital organization, however, has a solid service.

Loren> If anyone has any comments, please let me know.  I've been
Loren> working on this for awhile and I'd like some advice..  

I was a partner in American Legal Group Services where we sold
pre-paid legal plans. We started out direct marketing decided to check
out moving to MLM.  WOW!  There are a billion (well, not quite that
many) rules and regulations that must be followed AND they are
different for each state. Some states said you were an illegal pyramid
if you paid out more than 5 levels, other states required special
registration or licenses. There have been many BIG MLM companies who
have run afoul of the regulations in one state or another. Some
companies avoid certain states... and on and on,


Loren> need to hear, "Don't start it, you'll go to jail."  

No, I won't say that. BUT.... there are certainly examples. For me,
I'd rather just build on an existing company and let them take care of
the hassels of government regulation.

Loren> What I need is advice on how people should pay for it and what
Loren> type of prices are okay.

I've seen some companies automatically charge you for product each
month by credit card or bank withdrawals--- that works nice. Otherwise
cash, money order or checks. Prices?! Be competitive with other
companies that market the same thing unless you can convince people of
the reason why you charge more.

Loren>  I ve already designed the marketing plan and it pays very well
Loren> for a monthly fee of $10, and annual fee of $25 (prices
Loren> increase as you move up the marketing plan).

Be careful of that monthly fee.... depends on what you get for it. (NO
headhunting fees, no frontloading of inventory--- otherwise OUCH!)

It seems that FUND America, basically was zapped for 1) Front Loading
and 2) Lack of a product. Something like 90% of the memberships
purchased sat in garages and 80% of the 10% were distributors.

Loren> Advice and comments would be appreciated..

Hope that helps!


Bob


--
--Bob
Systar Technologies, Inc.		   Sun: robert.brown@EBay.Sun.COM
1712 Picasso Avenue, #B & #C            Office: reb@systar.com
Davis, California  95616		 Phone: (916) 753 - 2611
Newsgroups: alt.business.multi-level
From: int766m@lindblat.cc.monash.edu.au (S Malnovic)
Subject: re: earlier article
Organization: Monash University
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 03:30:07 GMT


			

>>> for some reason this response got lost earlier, so I will post it now.

Andy Sweeney (asweeney@camelot.sw.stratus.com) wrote:
: 
: Well, I have been trying to relax when I go to sleep so  I can bring about
: an oobe. But everytime I try I fall a sleep. I have been getting great
: sleep lately.

>> Every cloud has a silver lining ;)
>> On a more serious note. If you try to achieve an oobe in bed, or other
>> places, you should not be tired, as focusing (concentrating) on what
>> you are doing is somewhat draining, and if you are tired already, then
>> you are likely to go to sleep.


: In the past I have had dreams when I was fully aware that I was asleep
: but I couldn't move. The only way to wake up is to go to sleep in
: my dream. From reading this group it seems I got to a point at the
: begining of an oobe but I have never actually left my body.

>> wo, Jets are flying low today. That went straight over the top of my head.

: How do people go about having an oobe? Can they do it at will.

>> It seems that some people do it at will, and for others it just happens.

: I would like to try it again. I'm anxious for it to happen again, this time
: I won't be afraid of being paralyzed and I won't try and wake up.

>> TRY it again, by all means, but don't FORCE it. When the time is right,
>> you will do it. Also by being anxious, you are working against yourself.
>> ie you will find it difficult to relax when you are anxious.
>> RE: waking up. When we are asleep, we quite often astral. Infact, most of
>> our dreams are astral travels (supposedly, any dream that is in color,
>> is an astral travel. I wonder about that, but this is as the story goes).
>> Most would not bring back a conscious memory of their travels (dreams). 
>> The way to overcome this, is to initiate the travel when consciouss, thereby
>> taking the consciouss mind along for the ride. This way, when you come back,
>> the consciouss mind will have a memory of what happened.  
: 
: Andy

>> A number of ways to initiate astral traveling have been described in
>> previous articles. Among those, I posted one that may or may not work for
>> you. Try it, and after having given it a GOOD go, and it doesn't work, try
>> something else. A GOOD go is perhaps 2 to 3 months if you are already
>> experienced at meditating. Else it may take longer. Then again, it may not
>> as these things are quite personal.

>> Sascha

Newsgroups: alt.oobe