HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ahmed-shakil@CS.YALE.EDU (Shakil Waiz Ahmed)
Subject: Re: Contradictions in Quran
Organization: Yale University, Department of Computer Science
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 18:41:41 GMT


In article <1992Aug13.150302.23538@linus.mitre.org>, m21757@mitre.org (G) writes
:

> You logic eludes me, maybe we are miscommunicating or I'm missing some
> vital piece of information.  The point is that 'if' the man makes a mistake
> no one questions it because his word is acceptable without someone else
> corroborating it. This is not true for the woman. That is if 2 male
> witnesses disagree there is a dilemma, if the 1 male and 1 female
> witness disagree a second woman _must_ have been present to resolve
> the dilemma.  It is a case of obvious substitution one man for two
> women.

I think we are beginning to go around in circles...  If you have 1
male and 1 female witness who disagree, we have the same problem as
when 2 male witnesses disagree.  If, however, the female makes a
mistake, regardless of whether there is agreement or disagreement in
the first place, then the second one can point this out if she
realizes it.

> I see, you are saying that the Islamic conditions still exist today.  I would
> agree with that.  We would say then, that both types of conditions
> exist today, one where women are still not involved in financial
> transactions and another (at least) where women are well aware.  My
> point is that we cannot apply a law uniformly if it is outdated in
> one area.

I guess I don't see why not.  If we need one law that is to be valid
at all times, we have to account for all possible situations.  Hence,
you may very well be right in stating that in many societies today,
the second witness is unnecessary.  But in that case her role is
passive anyway, so why does it matter?

> In a society where a particular man and a particular woman have the same
> qualifications the need for a second one should be unnecessary.  Why not
> have another witness for everyone that errs (whether man or woman)?

You could have that.  There is no law in Islam which prohibits that.
If you argue that we have to account for changing times and societies,
this is probably the easiest way to do it *without* changing the
Islamic law.

-- Shakil
Xref: sparky soc.culture.bangladesh:4424 soc.culture.pakistan:13575 soc.culture.indian:27896
From: hyder@cs.utexas.edu (Syed Irfan Hyder)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bangladesh,soc.culture.indian,soc.culture.pakistan
Subject: Re: Interpretations change or we?
Date: 12 Aug 1992 10:27:55 -0500
Organization: U Texas Dept of Computer Sciences, Austin TX
NNTP-Posting-Host: pageboy.cs.utexas.edu

In article <1992Aug11.035529.22638@menudo.uh.edu> mece1e3@Jane.UH.EDU writes:
>>Of course, you are free to have your own beliefs, but I don't see how
>>that authorizes you to speak on behalf of all Muslims.  "Every Musliom
>>knows that the interpretations of Quaran need to change with time and
>>envioronment," you say.  Well, I consider myself a Muslim, and like
>>many fellow Muslims would believe that that statement is itself a
>>contradiction of what God tells us in the Qur'an.  Muslims do believe
>>that the Qur'an is timeless.
>
>Well, I thought Muhammad(PBUH) expected everybody to understand and
>interprete the verses for themselves. If the interpretations need
>not change then He would have along with the Quaran compiled a book
>of interpretations listing solutions to every human dillema from
>space-flight to Aids.

Reality is the same. Truth is eternal. Quran is eternal. 
The way we look at it changes. The apple is
falling the same way since thousands of years. Only since Newton
we began to put emphasis on aspects hitherto ignored. Similarly,
we began to ignore the aspects which were emphasised for thousands
of years (namely creation).  This doesnot mean that apple started
 falling in a different manner since Newton. 

It is hence that we use the literal translation of Quran as our
guide. The specific meaning of the verse does not change. However,
commonsensically, the way we incorporate it and apply it in
 our life changes. 

We still pray during travel. It is only the way we travel has changed
from (say) carts to aeroplanes. The injunction to pray during travel 
didn't change.

Xref: sparky soc.culture.bangladesh:4527 soc.culture.indian:28305 soc.culture.pakistan:13745
From: ahmed-shakil@CS.YALE.EDU (Shakil Waiz Ahmed)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bangladesh,soc.culture.indian,soc.culture.pakistan
Subject: Re: Contradictions in Quaran
Date: 15 Aug 92 23:58:04 GMT
Organization: Yale University, Department of Computer Science


In article <1992Aug15.234323.29354@ccad.uiowa.edu>, bhat@ccad.uiowa.edu (Dinkar N. Bhat) writes:

> True, the state needs rules to govern, but these should not be specific to
> any community or religion. You can have rules to regulate but you cannot
> discriminate a society based on that.

The laws have to come from *somewhere*, right?  So where do the laws
on dress in the US come from, for example?  Whose morals and values do
you think they are based on, and where do you think those came from?

> >I really don't know where all this is coming from.  You are free to
> >believe in any religion you want in Bangladesh.  That's why we have
> >over 15% religious minorities.  Indeed, Islam itself prescribes that
> >there is no compulsion in religion.
> >
> >Please don't randomly accuse countries of things which do not exist
> >when you clearly appear to know very little about the country in
> >question.
> 
> You were talking of the benefits of an Islamic State like Saudi Arabia where
> you said fear has made the society crime free. And when Rajiv argued that
> Pakistan and Bangladesh are Islamic States, you quickly change your attitude
> and say Bangladesh is not an Islamic State and talk about its good points.
> Do you support an Islamic State or a Secular State liek INDIA ?


The only positive attribute of the Saudi system I recall mentioning
had to do with crime, and I stand by that.  I do not believe that
Saudi Arabia is a good example of an Islamic state, because it seems
to me that many of their laws contradict Islam.  Indeed their very
system, a monarchy, is against Islamic principles.  Bangladesh is not
an Islamic state, but Islam is the state religion.  There is a
difference.  I don't think anything would change if Bangladesh *did*
become an Islamic state, because Islam prescribes tolerance of other
faiths, and hence protection of minorities.  The accusation was that
Bangladesh discriminates against minorities *because* it is Islamic.
I believe that is a ridiculous allegation, and the lack of proof
behind that blanket statement shows that.  I didn't bring India into
the above argument, and I don't see why you ask me about it now.

-- Shakil
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bangladesh
From: mrahman@occs.cs.oberlin.edu (Mushfiqur Rahman)
Subject: Re: Returning Home
Organization: Oberlin College Computer Science
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 18:38:57 GMT
X-Posted-From: occs.cs.oberlin.edu
X-Posted-Through: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In article <1992Aug19.153600.18464@ee.rochester.edu> hossain@ee.rochester.edu (Razak Hossain) writes:


>   On a different note let me mention that I was pleased to see SCB mentioned
>   in an article by Neeam (At Oberlin) published in one of the Dhaka English
                     ^^^^^
	Its actually Naeem.

>   weeklies. I forget the name of the magazine, but I have it. Perhaps some
>   one could put it on the net.

>   Best Wishes,
>   -Raza

Interesting. Considering the fact that he left for home about a week
back. If you have the time, can you please post it on the net.

Regards.

Tushu.


Newsgroups: soc.culture.bangladesh
From: dipen@heavax.gsfc.nasa.gov (D. Bhattacharya)
Subject: Re: Rashed Khan Menon shot in dhaka/critical cond.
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: NASA/GSFC Laboratory For High Energy Astrophysics
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 22:11:00 GMT

In article <1992Aug19.014320.14927@xraylith.wisc.edu>, khan@xraylith.wisc.edu (Mumit Khan) writes...
>Menon was shot twice at very close range, in the chest and in the
>stomach, with a sawed-off shot gun in a meeting the night of Aug 16. 
>He is listed as in extremely critical condition. Assailant (and sponsor) 
>unknown [speculations abound of course].
> 
>Just when I began to think that political violence is on the way out...

        The violence has been there since the time of "gono-adalot"
        (people's court). It seems that the Jamaat youth command has drawn 
        up a hit list consisting of names of the "gono-adalot" acitivists--
        most of these killings have been carried out in the provincial
        towns (Ratan Sen's was one of such). Now that they tried to kill
        Menon in Dhaka, it is worthwhile to fathom their longterm goals.

>peace
>mumit

        Dipen
From: zsardar@ds5000.DAC.Northeastern.edu (Ziak Sardar)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bangladesh
Subject: PRIVATE LINES......
Date: 17 Aug 92 16:02:46 GMT
Organization: Northeastern University, Boston MA. USA 02115

Recently I came across an article about private transmission lines being
set up in Bangladesh or their is a talk about setting them up. Can anyone
confirm about any of the two?


Thanks

Zia A Karim Sardar
From: ahsharif@violet.uwaterloo.ca (AH Sharif)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bangladesh
Subject: Problems due to backbitting
Keywords: Backbitting , remedy
Date: 13 Aug 92 14:52:35 GMT
Organization: University of Waterloo

Is there anyone out there expert on moral ethical issues.
I am particularly interested to know the exact definition
of backbitting and its variation.

If someone consistantly backbites you what should be your
response/reaction. What are the posible solutions to a 
backbitting problem. What islam says on the issue?

You can e-mail your response to
             ahsharif@violet.waterloo.edu

--Hoque
Xref: sparky soc.culture.bangladesh:4443 soc.culture.indian:27952 soc.culture.pakistan:13599
From: misra@matt.ksu.ksu.edu (Boo!)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bangladesh,soc.culture.indian,soc.culture.pakistan
Subject: Re: Contradictions in Quaran
Date: 13 Aug 1992 11:49:52 -0500
Organization: Kansas State University
NNTP-Posting-Host: matt.ksu.ksu.edu

ahmed-shakil@CS.YALE.EDU (Shakil Waiz Ahmed) writes:


>In article <1992Aug13.063644.28151@uceng.UC.EDU>, mghayalo@uceng.UC.EDU (Manoj Ghayalod) writes:
>> In article <1992Aug13.011649.16448@cs.yale.edu> ahmed-shakil@CS.YALE.EDU (Shakil Waiz Ahmed) writes:

>But if the US is by itself enough to deal with the problem, why
>include Israel?
	Israel was included because everyone knew that the mad man of the mid
east will attack Israel and a response by Israel would undermine the war effort.
That was the sole reason.

Newsgroups: soc.culture.bangladesh
From: mece1e3@Jane.UH.EDU (Arindam Ghosh)
Subject: SORRY FOLKS: ONLY CULTURE FROM NOW
Reply-To: mece1e3@Jane.UH.EDU
Organization: University of Houston
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 22:37:47 GMT


I did not start this discussion to make this group into alt.religion
We are held together by a belief that God exists and we are here to worship
him: but how to work for personal salvation is a personal matter between
you Bahaullah and God
The community effort is wholly directed towards improvement of

SOCIETY and CULTURE

However, whenever a person wants to join us the question of religion comes
up. Of course one can help from outside irrespective of his/her religion
and they are welcome: our community improvement efforts are also not targetted
to a religion: e.g. Not BAHAI WHITE and BLACK but ALL WHITE and BLACK.

Hope this clears some confusion
Anyway I have no intention to continue in any newsgroup any more
I am not paid for this and have better things to do like organizing
racial unity meetings.
You are free to send me an e-mail whenever you like
Arindam

Newsgroups: soc.culture.bangladesh,soc.culture.pakistan,soc.culture.indian
From: masroor@human.ai.kyushu-u.ac.jp (Muhammad Masroor Ali)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bangladesh
Subject: Re: Returning Home
Date: 19 Aug 92 22:55:55 GMT
    <MRAHMAN.92Aug19133857@occs.cs.oberlin.edu>
Organization: Dept. of Comp. Sci. and Comm. Eng., Kyushu Univ., Fukuoka, Japan
    18:38:57 GMT
X-Bytes: 617

In reply to the request 

	|>On a different note let me mention that I was pleased to 
	.....................................
	.....................................

	|>weeklies. I forget the name of the magazine, but I have it. 
	|>Perhaps some   one could put it on the net.
	|
	|>   Best Wishes,
	|>   -Raza



Mr. Mushfiqur Rahman writes:

.......... Considering the fact that he left for home about a week
|back. If you have the time, can you please post it on the net.
|
|Regards.
|
|Tushu.
|





I echo with the voice of Mr. Mushfiqur Rahman. I am also very eager
to see that article,


Best wishes,


Papel
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bangladesh,soc.culture.indian,soc.culture.pakistan
From: gagrawal@cs.tamu.edu (Gopal Agrawal)
Subject: Re: Contradictions in Quaran
Organization: Computer Science Dept., Texas A&M University
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 05:37:48 GMT

In article <Bsvo2D.M3L@ecf.toronto.edu>, obaid@ecf.toronto.edu writes:

|> Congo is not the only place with such a climate and vegetation.
|> How do the inhabitants of the Brazilian, Malaysian, etc forests keep their
|> clothes on ?
|> 
|> NadeemS

I don't know about Malaysia but about Brazil... there was an article about 
the forest dwellers of the Amazon forest in the National Geographic about 
a year or two ago. If I remember correctly, these people DO NOT wear any 
clothes (except on the their genital parts).  As another example, see the 
movie (based on a true story) called "The Emerald forest"  which depicts 
very clearly the culture of the Amazonians. Clothes are worn only in the
cities or where land has been cleared for settlement. 

regards,
--   
   ______ ______ ______ ______ __  |\/\/\/|
    ____/  __  /  __  /  __  /  /  |  \  /|   LIFE'S COMPLEX - IT HAS 
   / __   /   /  /   /  /   /  /   | (o)(o)   REAL & IMAGINARY PARTS  
  /   /  /   /   ___/  __  /  /    C      _) 
_____/ _____/ __/   __/ __/ ______/ | \___|  
E-mail - gagrawal@cs.tamu.edu       |   /   All Std. Disclaimers apply.
 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bangladesh
From: ahmed-shakil@CS.YALE.EDU (Shakil Waiz Ahmed)
Subject: Re: on recent discussions -- I
Organization: Yale University, Department of Computer Science
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 15:06:54 GMT


In article <1992Aug13.032256.6222@tcsi.com>, ali@tcs.com (Ali Ishtiaq) writes:

> As a gay Bangladeshi I have been curious how Bangladeshis abroad view 
> homosexuality. Sometime last year I posted something to this effect - not as
> well put as your initial salvo - but it didn't get much response. Maybe
> because Shakil never saw it :-). 

Actually, I did see it, but I didn't see a need to respond.  Note that
I never responded to Dipen's initial article either.  It was only when
Zunaid posted on his set of values that I noticed what appeared to me,
and still appears to me, to be a logical inconsistency.  In the past,
I chose not to post on the subject because I assumed that most
Bangladeshis knew what the Islamic standpoint was, and I did not see
any point in merely stating the obvious.  Of course, when people
started posting on value systems, the discussion became more
interesting, and that is why I stepped into it.

> I have to thank him for keeping this discussion
> alive, though I never got to understand his thread of argument
> (however I have to admit I got lost in some of the knots) until you,
> Dipen, explained it.  

Well, the sad part of the story is that Dipen misunderstood not only
my argument, but also Arun Gupta's (as later postings have revealed).
I personally feel that Haroon Dogar's summary of my argument was much
more to the point, and really expressed what I was trying to say.

> Except that now he is rightfully upset that you understood him, so I guess I 
> will refrain from trying to understand too much. (Just a joke, Shakil :-) ).

Understanding selectively always does wonders, because one only
understands that which one wants to understand...  Now, which part of
the above did you say was the joke?   :-)

-- Shakil

Newsgroups: soc.culture.bangladesh
From: ahmed-shakil@CS.YALE.EDU (Shakil Waiz Ahmed)
Subject: Re: Minoritity in Govt. positions
Organization: Yale University, Department of Computer Science
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 20:08:37 GMT


In article <16h2qvINNig8@silver.ksu.ksu.edu>, misra@silver.ksu.ksu.edu (Boo!) writes:

> 	That Bd has not tried to do enough for minority groups . 
> I suggest you people
> who advocate great things about harmony in Bd look around and see is 
> going on before
> you go and point fingers at other nations. 


A few facts:

1) I don't recall having pointing fingers at any country
2) The charge was that Bangladesh and Islamic countries in general
   disriminate against minorities -- so who was pointing fingers?
3) It was you and some other BJP fans who were engaging in another
   Islam-bashing fest introduced by this mysterious "Dave" character
4) You did not present a single fact about discrimination in
   Bangladesh
5) A lack of higher positions being filled by a particular group, by
   selecting particular positions that satisfy those criteria (as was
   shown by Sandip Kundu) does not necessarily translate into
   discrimination

You've still shown nothing, so you have no case to rest.

-- Shakil


Xref: sparky soc.culture.bangladesh:4492 soc.culture.indian:28193 soc.culture.pakistan:13677
From: m21757@mitre.org (G)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bangladesh,soc.culture.indian,soc.culture.pakistan
Subject: Re: Contradictions in Quran
Date: 14 Aug 92 17:59:36 GMT
Article-I.D.: linus.1992Aug14.175936.6481
Organization: The MITRE Corporation

In article <1992Aug13.184141.26071@cs.yale.edu> ahmed-shakil@CS.YALE.EDU 
(Shakil Waiz Ahmed) writes:
> In article <1992Aug13.150302.23538@linus.mitre.org>, m21757@mitre.org 
(G) writes
> :
> 
> > You logic eludes me, maybe we are miscommunicating or I'm missing some
> > vital piece of information.  The point is that 'if' the man makes a 
mistake
> > no one questions it because his word is acceptable without someone else
> > corroborating it. This is not true for the woman. That is if 2 male
> > witnesses disagree there is a dilemma, if the 1 male and 1 female
> > witness disagree a second woman _must_ have been present to resolve
> > the dilemma.  It is a case of obvious substitution one man for two
> > women.
> 
> I think we are beginning to go around in circles...  If you have 1
> male and 1 female witness who disagree, we have the same problem as
> when 2 male witnesses disagree.  If, however, the female makes a
> mistake, regardless of whether there is agreement or disagreement in
> the first place, then the second one can point this out if she
> realizes it.
> 
> > I see, you are saying that the Islamic conditions still exist today.  
I would
> > agree with that.  We would say then, that both types of conditions
> > exist today, one where women are still not involved in financial
> > transactions and another (at least) where women are well aware.  My
> > point is that we cannot apply a law uniformly if it is outdated in
> > one area.
> 
> I guess I don't see why not.  If we need one law that is to be valid
> at all times, we have to account for all possible situations.  Hence,
> you may very well be right in stating that in many societies today,
> the second witness is unnecessary.  But in that case her role is
> passive anyway, so why does it matter?
> 
> > In a society where a particular man and a particular woman have the 
same
> > qualifications the need for a second one should be unnecessary.  Why 
not
> > have another witness for everyone that errs (whether man or woman)?
> 
> You could have that.  There is no law in Islam which prohibits that.
> If you argue that we have to account for changing times and societies,
> this is probably the easiest way to do it *without* changing the
> Islamic law.
> 
> -- Shakil


I would like to reply to the above mentioned items, but unfortunately, I 
am seconds (well maybe not seconds) away to leaving USENET.  Salam and 
Goodbye.

G
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bangladesh
From: ahmed-shakil@CS.YALE.EDU (Shakil Waiz Ahmed)
Subject: Re: Minoritity in Govt. positions
Organization: Yale University, Department of Computer Science
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 18:09:48 GMT


In article <16grisINNqph@matt.ksu.ksu.edu>, misra@matt.ksu.ksu.edu (Boo!) writes:
> 
> 	I rest my case.. Thanks.

What case?

-- Shakil
From: ahsana@topaz.ucq.edu.au
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bangladesh
Subject: GOVT.LABORATORY HIGH SCHOOL,1984
Date: 13 Aug 92 18:16:02 AET
Organization: University of Central Queensland, Australia


 WERE YOU IN THE S.S.C BATCH OF GOVT. LABORATORY HIGH SCHOOL, DHAKA, 

 BANGLADESH IN 1984 ? 

 PLEASE CONTACT WITH ME .

 E-MAIL : AHSANA@TOPAZ.UCQ.EDU.AU















Newsgroups: soc.culture.bangladesh
From: s1006420@titan.ucc.umass.edu (and a thousand battles shall be won..)
Subject: culture x nature
Organization: University of Massachusetts, Amherst
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 22:22:09 GMT

Newsgroups: poster
Subject: Re: Culture x Nature

In article <1992Aug18.153053.29379@cbnewsh.cb.att.com> rps@cbnewsh.cb.att.com (raj.sharma) writes:
>(and a thousand battles shall be won..) writes:
>
>> My point is that culture overrides nature in several aspects ...
>
>	
>	The culture that is not in harmony with nature
>	                 is a false culture;
>    	and [therefore]
>	not worth having.
>	
>
>---raj

I agree with you that it is not worth having. Unfortunately you
can only apply the word false in the sense of misleading,
since such 'false' cultural ideas and cultures are very much real and
prevalent.

How to engender culture (in practice) that is in harmony 
with nature and with all human beings, 
since we cannot start from scratch, there is always the
inertia of what the past accumulated into, is one of the most
challeging problems IMO.

V.


				   
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bangladesh,soc.culture.indian,soc.culture.pakistan