From: ras@athena.mit.edu (Richard A Shandross)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Model Mugging (long)
Date: 16 Sep 92 03:59:30 GMT
Article-I.D.: athena.1992Sep16.035930.126
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology


Andy:

AV>	Dunno if you folks remember, but last November I posted a little
AV>	incident that happened at a local bar with yours truly.  Band was
AV>	playing and one of the "roadies" took a grave disliking to me for 
AV>	some reason (my breath??).  Said he was gonna kick my ass.  Got up
AV>	in my face (I was sitting) and tried like hell to pick a fight.  I
AV>	just remained serene.  Did not smile or scowl; just looked at him
AV>	dispassionately.  His friends got real nervous and escorted him out
AV>	of the bar, never to return.  His friend looked at me and said with
AV>
>
AV>	Absolutely correct.  I spent years hanging with bikers and teaching
AV>	in the ghettos of NYC and can say for certain that folks like this
AV>	do indeed make it a point to scorn the middle-class types and take
AV>	pleasure in pummeling the shit out of such folks when they feel they
AV>	can do it successfully.

It is obvious from these and other messages that you are very skilled and
experienced, so I hope you will not take offense if I ask for evidence drawn
from that experience (or whatever source you have, I guess) to back up some of
your assertions in various postings.  There's a lot of cut and past here, and
I haven't documented every posting; hope that's not a hassle.  

DB>>Lastly, how about a little reality injected in this story?  Not
DB>>all attackers are 250 pound weightlifters with a black belt in three
DB>>martial arts.  
>
AV>	True, but more often than not they are armed in some way.  The 
AV>	threat posed by a gun is obvious, and a knife is every bit as
AV>	deadly a threat, thought many people fail to recognize this.

Fer tells us, "the single unarmed assailant...accounts for more than 80% of
assaults on women."  (Article 22475)  Which of you is correct, and what
evidence do you have to back your assertion up?  (I know that Fer takes her
info from MM research, which I believe is in turn taken from police reports -
at the least, maybe other sources too.)

AV>	Proves my point.  She had no training in physical methods, but was
AV>	on the ball enough to use whatever resources she had at hand to 
AV>	forestall her enemy long enough to save her life.  Had she been there
AV>	thinking to herself "Block, then kick... or was that kick then block,
AV>	or punch and kick... oh fudge..." she might not have lived long
AV>	enough to have regrets.  Congratulations and condolences, and hope
AV>	she is doing well.

Is it correct to assume that you are referring to MM when you spell out the
"Block, then kick..." scenario?  If so, where did you get the impression that
that is what the course is like?  Have you ever been to a graduation, or spoken
to a graduate (other than on this forum)?  

By these questions, you no doubt will surmise that I am saying that the MM
training is far from that kind of thing.

FER>>Traditional MAs were mostly designed for men (yes I know that there
FER>>are some interesting exceptions). 
>
AV>	Designed for men??  They were designed for anyone who would be
AV>	engaging in combat, male or female.  Just happens that historically
AV>	most of the combat has been done by the males.  Human body is
AV>	human body.  There are very few notable differences between male
AV>	and female WRT anatomy as it applies to combat.

Here I presume that your opinion about the human body as regards combat is
based on experience, and not some statistic.  So I ask what experience you have
had in women's self-defense.  Have you taught women, and if so, what sort of
experiences have they had in using their skills?  Did they approach the
fights successfully using the same style of combat?  If they were successful:
how much training did it take to get the skill?  would they have been able to
defend themselves using the same without that much training?  what if they had
been attacked before becoming effective in your style?  what would you tell
someone if she were raped while training in your style, but before she became
effective in it?

If you haven't taught women, have you studied with or otherwise know many women
who studied MAs, and what their real-life experiences have been using them?
Have you spoken with many women, trained or not, about their self-defense
needs?  About what types of harassment and abuse they run into?  About how they
were raped, followed, or verbally assaulted?  Do these sorts of experiences
occur frequently to you or other men that you know, trained or not?  If a
person with the strength of a gorilla approached you in one of these ways,
would you be able to fight back with the techniques you now use?  How do you
know? 

What information do you have on the developers of traditional MAs?  I can only
really speak for Tai Chi, and that art was clearly developed by men and was
intended to be passed down only to men.  (Only Chinese men, of the same family
or at least village, as the teacher, for that matter.)  Rape has been around
for ages... why has most of the combat been done by males, if women MAists were
around learning effective techniques to fight back?

FER>>They take MAs and are very promising beginners (they
FER>>have good control). As they become intermediate students they get
FER>>frustrated as they don't know how to add power to their techniques
>
AV>	That's because their instructors either don't know how to 
AV>	apply it themselves (most likely) or don't know how to
AV>	properly transmit their knowledge to otheres (less likely).
>
FER>>Then the MA school leans
FER>>harder and harder on the woman to 'bring her power out', this
FER>doesn't work and the woman quits in frustration sure that women
FER>>just can't stand up to men, and the men all agree.
>
AV>     I'm sure this is the case sometimes, but give me a break; men
AV>	don't generally sit around conspiring as you make it  sound.
AV>	We too have better things to do.  BTW, I have NEVER seen this
AV>	occur.  Perhaps we train on different planets? :)
>
FER>>For myself it was only after taking MM that I was able to use power
FER>>in my MAs. For me both are essential, control and power. MAs were
FER>>not able to teach me how to use power MM did. 
>
AV>	OK, forget your sensei; tell me the state your musculature is in
AV>	as you are about to strike and I'll probably be able to tell you
AV>	if MM taught you well.

You've never seen this occur, but you can comment on the skill of the
instructors involved?  I'm always wary of a teacher who criticizes others or
their arts without firsthand knowledge of them.  I'm doubly wary of a martial
artist who assumes a posture of greater knowledge and understanding over another
martial artist, without the latter acknowledging that hierarchy first.  

To me, there are things more important than experience and skill.

As a male instructor who has done just what Fer says, and has had coinstructors
do the same, I can say that it is not a matter of conspiracy.  It is a matter
of getting the feeling that the women are just not *trying* hard enough, or
that they have a mental block and if they just perservere (as all we men did)
they can get through it, or some other thing which does not acknowledge the
truth.  If you have taught women and avoided this situation than I must either
commend you on your excellent instruction or envy you for having such unusually
strong-egoed women students, or both.

One final question:  what experiences or information do you have that the Model
Mugging techniques do *not* work?  For example, do you know (of) women who
tried them in assault situations and failed?  They have lots of reports of
success, as has already been discussed.  Are there as many reports of failure? 


	Rich Shandross