From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: haydn symphony recommendations
Originator: news@nimaster
Reply-To: roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig)
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1992 04:12:46 GMT

In article <1agb6gINN1cu@sol.usc.edu> asbed@sol.usc.edu (Asbed Bedrossian) writes:
>In article <hudu.717923267@well.sf.ca.us> hudu@well.sf.ca.us (Scott Marley) writes:

>>I can't think of any movements in Mozart's symphonies that don't have some
>>sort of parallel somewhere in Haydn's; but where in Mozart can you find the
>>structural innovation in Haydn's "Lamentations" symphony, "Farewell"
>>symphony, "Hornsignal" symphony, and "Military" symphonies?  Where is the
>>equivalent in Mozart of Haydn's experiments in sonata and sonata-rondo
>>forms?  Where does Mozart ever make you laugh out loud the way Haydn so
>>often does?

>There's no doubt that Haydn covered a lot more ground than Mozart, and
>this message is not to debate the issue.

>But all this discussion we ended up with, comparing Haydn and Mozart, I
>haven't seen a sungle person take into account that Mozart lived 35 years,
>and assuming that his first composition was at 8 years old, that gives a
>musically creative life of 27 years, lumped at the start of the life.

More like 6 years old -- 30 years in all.

>Haydn lived to be 77, with a creative life of some 60 years. We surely can't

More like 50; his first works are from around age 19, his last from 1803.

>dismiss the amount of growth and change that a person undergoes through so
>many years. Interests change; boredom, repetition, comfort all change one's
>perspective. If Haydn experimented more, it was probably because he had the
>time and the luxury to do so. 

Hardly.  Some of his most adventurous works were written at a time when 
he was composing several pieces per week.  The sheer bulk of Haydn's
instrumental music gainsays this: 130 baryton trios (light stuff, composed
in a fairly short interval, the 1770's); 70+ string quartets; 107 
symphonies -- probably more, actually; 30+ piano trios; and on and on.
Mozart composed 23 quartets, 50 or so symphonies, a handful of piano
trios, etc.; of course, he also worked in genres that Haydn was less
active in:concerto, for instance.  I don't see where Haydn had much more
leisure and luxury of time than Mozart, given that he had tons of other
duties, such as leading an orchestra.

>The surprise (again, my example) could ONLY
>have been written by a man who has written a million symphonies before, and

Why?  It's actually not very unconventional aside from the second movement;
many ofthe symphonies from 20 years earlier are fare more adventurous in their
form.

>absolutely absorbed the routine of the audience. 

Um, it was a new audience, too; Haydn had only been in London for a few
months.  Besides, how long does it take to observe audience behavior?
Surely Haydn was a master of that in 1768 already.

>To me, Haydn's excellence
>and genius is not different or above or below that of Mozart's; it just was
>channeled differently through influence of his time-space environment. What

Haydn as Ramtha?  This sounds pretty strange to me.  

>would a 60 year old Mozart have written?

You tell me!  I'd love to know.

>I am not a specialist in all this musicology and comparison department.
>Would someone care to elaborate on the amount of growth and experimentation
>and variety in Haydn's output in the 25 or so years after his first
>composition, and compare _that_ with Mozart?

Well, if we place his first known, certainly attributed composition around 
1751, that takes us to 1776, past Op. 20 and the Farewell, Passione, B
major, Hornsignal, and several other fine symphonies.  He had brought the
symphony to its first great pinnacles in that time; and the growth of the
string quartet in his hands, from the earliest ones to Op. 20, was also
remarkable.

Of course, he was much older than Mozart ever would be: 44. But even if we go
back and look at Mozart's evolution from age 16, say, to his death just
before his 36th birthday, which is basically the period in which all his
masterpieces were written, we find a great evolution in each genre --
symphony, concerto, opera, quartet -- but only in a few of these -- comic
opera and concerto -- do we find him really striking out on
new paths the way Haydn did in *any* 20 year period in his creative life,
be it 1783-1803, 1752-1772, or anything in between.  Haydn made Mozart's
great instrumental music possible by writing some ofthe first instrumental
music to be considered great.

Roger

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