HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: vagelis@aifh.ed.ac.uk (Vagelis Vassiliadis)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,eunet.politics,soc.culture.australian
Subject: Re: EDUCATION SPECIAL: MAP OF THE WORLD
Date: 19 Aug 92 13:49:34 GMT
Reply-To: vagelis@aifh.ed.ac.uk (Vagelis Vassiliadis)
Organization: Dept of AI, University of Edinburgh, Scotland

In article <1992Aug18.191328.8445@sunbim.be>, sk@groo.sunbim.be (Sasa Konecni)
writes:

# The territory of NOrthern Greece was called
# Northern Hellas and in Novermber 1988, it was renamed Macedonia
# and Trace. Why?
# 
#    The Greek propaganda machine is hard at work spreading lies
# but the truth will prevail.
# 
# Sasa.
# 
 
Another good piece of propaganda by our "Macedonian" friends. The truth is
that 
what was renamed was the name of the ministry from "Ministry of Northern
Greece"
to "Ministry of Macedonia and Thrace". The territories themselves were named 
Macedonia and Thrace since they were incorporated in the Greek state after the
Balkan wars.

Vagelis
From: y1@ecl.psu.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Question: What happened in Yoguslavia
Date: 16 Aug 92 07:25:47 GMT
Article-I.D.: ecl.1992Aug16.032548.4787
Reply-To: poster
Followup-To: poster
Organization: Engineering Computer Lab, Pennsylvania State University

Hi, netters,

I saw many news from CNN and Newsweek about the civil war from former
Yoguslavia but never quite understand it.  Partly due to I am a international
student here and English is not my native language.  

All I know is the war mainly occurs in Bosnia and it is because different 
religous people believe in.  The serbs drove Moslims and others to
some camps and in return, Moslims drove the serbs into their camps.  To make
the things more confusing, since serbia is another country so I can hardly 
tell the term "serbian" means the people come from serbia or the serbs in 
Bosnia.  

What I would like to know is: (No flame, please)
1) Is that a civil war in Bosnia or a invasion from Serbia to Bosnia?
2) Which are the two side that in and out of the circle around Sarajevo?
3) Which coutries from former Yoguslavia invovled in the war? 

I really think people in former Yoguslavia should not suffer such a misery.
In my childhood I saw many Yoguslvia films in china, my home coutry. 
Propaganda or not, those films were mainly WWII related and I quite enjoyed 
them at that time.  I can still remember some of them as, 
"Valter defends sarajevo" (translate the name from chinese translation of 
original name), "Bridge" which had a song once popular in China--"Chao, friend"
I think it's a Italian song, right?

Yang
Xref: sparky soc.culture.yugoslavia:8167 soc.culture.greek:7798
From: michael.polymenakos@factory.com (Michael Polymenakos) 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.greek
Subject: Re: EDUCATION SPECIAL: MA
Date: 19 Aug 92 22:59:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Invention Factory's BBS - New York City, NY - 212-274-1243v.32bis
Reply-To: michael.polymenakos@factory.com (Michael Polymenakos) 


Notify: soc.culture.europe,eunet.politics

SK>From: sk@groo.sunbim.be (Sasa Konecni)

SK> michael>  Let me close by making one thing clear: GREECE HAS NO
SK> michael>  TERRITORIAL CLAIMS AGAINST SKOPJIE.
SK>We have a saing: "Who has a fly on his hat is trying to
SK>chase it away".

  Cheap shot. I just stressed that because certain Skopjian sources are
  actively trying to cultivate this impression here in the US. The record
  shows that my statement honestly true.

SK>Blaming the North Neighbors and raising
SK>nationalistic feelings against Macedonians will not help Greece
SK>to solve it's economic problems, and mess it created by moving in
SK>1920's 2 million people from Asia into North Greece, and deporting
SK>the original population which is Slavic by origin. Or maybe
SK>Greece is following the example of the big friend Serbia?

  Please read history before you try to describe it. The exchange of
  population between Greece and Serbia, Bulgaria and Turkey was the result
  of bilateral treaties. All sides involved then hailed the population
  exchanges as a measure towards peace. A continuation of the previously
  existing "salad bowl" population would have simply prolonged the traditional
  Balkan conflicts of the type we are seeing today in Bosnia.

  Don't misread me; I am not in favor of 'ethnic cleansing' as a means for
  peace. But there is nothing dishonorable about a population exchange
  which has been agreed upon by all parties involved.

  The case of the Greek-Serbian population exchanges is a good example:
  Greece and Serbia/Yugoslavia have NEVER in their history fought each other.
  Even this recent Macedonia brouhaha is not a territorial dispute. Imagine
  if there were still thousands of Greeks living in Vardar, and thousands of
  Bulgarians/Serbians living in Greece? Claims would fly from all directions,
  and this would be a real mess.

  Sasa, your people and our people reaced an honorable agreement 80 years ago:
  Our people came south, your people went north. It is all down in paper.
  Do you want to change that today?

SK>Sasa.

  Michael.

  Ps. There is no need to cross-post to any groups other than s.c.greek
  and s.c.Yugo (perhaps also s.c.Bulgaria).
---
 . SLMR 2.1a . My reality check just bounced.
                                                                                                             
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: eserte@cs.tu-berlin.de (Slaven Rezic (Tomic))
Subject: ASCII/TeX for Croatian
Organization: Technical University of Berlin, Germany
Distribution: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 12:05:19 GMT


Does anybody knows which ASCII-codes are used for Croatian letters? I
know, that there is a solution using special charcters like {, }, [, ]
and so on. Are there any solutions using the ISO-Standard?

I would also know, whether there is a croatian style-file for LaTeX.

--
eserte@cs.tu-berlin.de		Slaven Rezi\'c (Tomi\'c)
				TU Berlin
				Germany
-- 
------------------------------------------------------             ,      ,
------------------------------------------------------  Slaven Rezic (Tomic)
------3---5--------3---6--5--------3---5----3--------- eserte@cs.tu-berlin.de
--5---3---5----5---3---6--5----5---3---5----3---5--5--
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: POKORNY@rzmain.rz.uni-ulm.de (POKORNY DAN)
Subject: (Sorry, Dubrovnik... (empty article))
Organization: University of Ulm, Germany
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 21:05:55 GMT
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.23

...
Xref: sparky soc.culture.yugoslavia:8213 soc.culture.greek:7885 soc.culture.europe:7606 eunet.politics:1110
From: 8939527@hydra.maths.unsw.EDU.AU
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,eunet.politics
Subject: Re: THE ABORIGINAL GOVERNMENT OFFICIALLY RECOGNISES THE INDEPENDENCE OF MACEDONIA
Date: 22 Aug 92 04:36:14 GMT
Organization: school of Mathematics UNSW

In article <1992Aug20.151504.44@newserve.cc.binghamton.edu> kym@bingsuno.cc.binghamton.edu (R. Kym Horsell) writes:
>In article <1992Aug20.003723.6415@usage.csd.unsw.OZ.AU> 8939527@hydra.maths.unsw.EDU.AU () writes:
>>	The Aboriginal minority in Australia has no knowledge
>>in what is happening in Makedonia. Don't be stupid. 
>
>I'm amazed that 8939527 can presume to speak for several hundred
>thousand people. It must either be the case that this entity
>has done extensive research in the communities concerned or
>has been misled by the somewhat abusive ``minority'' tag that
>seems to be prevelant amongst some (i.e. ``minority'' == ``ignorant'').


	I did sign as George but anyway. Were are you posting from. Do you have
any knowledge of what is happening in Australia ? I asure you that my
point is quite valid. What persentage of American indians know enough
about the subject om Skopjia vs Greece ? Also add that it's unfortunate
that a vast majority of adult aboriginies are not educated in the western
culture, although they are prowd of there knowledge of their own culture
and feal fulfilled to that level. It wont be unreasnable to say that a vast
majority would not be able to put the few major sities on the Australian map
let alone find Europe. Oh as for you representing the "several hundred thousand"
people how about a few tens of thousand. I think the number lies at either
forty or eighty thousand. And a note to that A great number of them are prowd
for still following their original culture (Not even knowing of the rest of 
Australias existance) which to our culture the scientists place them to
the stone age. Again get your facts straight.

	Note ----> George
 

>-kym
From: sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog)
Subject: Re: Skopje's Swiss Dreams
Organization: Enea Data AB
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 21:21:49 GMT

Michael Polymenakos (michael.polymenakos@factory.com)  writes:
>   The German army was not much larger than that in 1930. Besides, the
>   Skopjie government seems to have the full support of Bulgaria. Need I
>   remind you that Bulgaria annexed the Skopjie region during WWI as an
>   ally of the Central Empires? Need I remind you the Bulgaria annexed
>   Northern Greece and the Skopjie region again during WWII, this time as
>   an ally of the Axis powers? Do you see a patern here? Don't you believe
>   that history has a tendency to repeat itself?

You're so right. We all know how a Greek by the name of Alexander went
on a ten-year conquest layed his hands on lands that was not his. Before
history repeats itself, wipe Greece from the face of Earth.

Panagiotis Lolonis (lolonis@news.weeg.uiowa.edu) writes:
>Can you guarantee that there will be no terrorist activities against Greece
>supported by the Skopjeans?  You do not need thousands of troops to plant
>several bombs in Salonika and deter tourists.  We (and the EC as well) do not
>need another wave of terrorism.  We have had enough.  We have paid enough.

>Can you guarantee that there will be no terrorist activities against
>Spain supported by Greeks?

Can you guarantee that there will be no terrorist activity against
Spain supported Greeks?

>Can you eliminate the scenario that Skopjeans, Boulgarians, and Turks make an
>alliance and attack Greece simultaneously to free "Macedonians",
>"Boulgarians", and "Turks" from the Greek "oppression"?  (Hint: which 
>countries support the Skopjeans economically and militarily?)

Can you eliminate the scenario that Greece tries to redo the
adventure of Alexander?

-----

Get real folks. Are the above really supposed to be arguments against
the recognition of Macedonia? One starts to wonder if Greece as a whole
has acquired paranoia, and as diseased must be put under mental care.

And would any of the arguments be any different if Macedonia had
another name?

Maybe some day I will something nice to say about Greece. But today
I find it difficult. Very difficult.
-- 
Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - sommar@enea.se
Life is wonderful when the wonderlife is full
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Zagreb Diary
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 15:43:36 -0500

Dear Wam,
I hope this message reaches you. Please let me know.
I thought you would be pleased to know that the Associated Press carried a story
on August 11 from Chicago about electronic mail serving as a link between Croats
and Serbs in the United States and the former Yugoslavia.
It quoted a woman whose grandfather was Croatian as saying she had seen the plea
of a Dutch peace worker in Zagreb asking for medicine, noting that kidney
patients have no medicine.
The story said she contacted a kidney doctor and and they soon had suppliers
trying to  get medicine shipped.
So your letters are being read and I think they are very well done and should
get wide circulation. Bravo.
  
Xref: sparky soc.culture.yugoslavia:7883 soc.culture.greek:7415 soc.culture.europe:7193
From: ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis )
Subject: Re: EDUCATION SPECIAL: MAP OF THE WORLD
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 04:04:32 GMT

sk@groo.sunbim.be (Sasa Konecni) writes:

>  The Macedonians, Greeks, Serbians, and other Balkan people
>should look to the future and not the past. 

 So, choose a name that represents you, and live us in peace. Understood?

>The territory of NOrthern Greece was called
>Northern Hellas and in Novermber 1988, it was renamed Macedonia
>and Trace. Why?

 Wake up!! Your stupidity has no limits! Northern part of Greece has
 ALWAYS BEEN CALLED MACEDONIA.  THRACE HAS ALWAYS BEEN CALLED THRACE.

 I HAVE EVERY RIGHT TO SAY YOU ARE BRAINWASHED !!!!

>   The Greek propaganda machine is hard at work spreading lies
>but the truth will prevail.

 See above comment.  Everyone can draw his conclusions ...

>Sasa.



-- 
---> Panos Tamamidis
     University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.turkish,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe
From: sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog)
Subject: Re: Conflict could lay foundations for Islamic state in Europe.
Organization: Enea Data AB
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 21:40:53 GMT

Sigh. I asked Milan Stojanovic what he meant with the use of
fundamentalist: "So it is up to fundamentalists in Izetbegovic 
government", and asked if not people like Karadzic and Milosevic
could be regarded as fundamentalists. In response(?) to this Milan
Pavlovic posts an article from the Guardian which discusses the
possbilities that B-H could become a Islamic state in Europe.

Milan, I asked about fundamentalists, not Muslims. B-H may become
an Islamic state in Europe, so what? We have 40+ Christian states,
is that much better? There are fundamentalist Muslims and there
are fundamentalist Christians. None of them are very nice guys.
Thankfully none of them seems to prevail in Europe.

Clearly there are no fundamentalists in the B-H government, I at
least I have heard no proposal to introduce sharia laws. But when
Serbs knee-jerk react every time you point out the obvious: Kosovo
is not theirs, that seems quite fundamentalistic to me.
-- 
Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - sommar@enea.se
Life is wonderful when the wonderlife is full
Xref: sparky soc.culture.yugoslavia:8131 soc.culture.greek:7750
From: macrakis@osf.org (Stavros Macrakis)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.greek
Subject: Re: Independent Slavo-Macedonia
Date: 19 Aug 92 22:58:39 GMT
Organization: OSF Research Institute

In article <1992Aug19.192929.27974@wuecl.wustl.edu> jdd1@cec1.wustl.edu (James Dimos Dimarogonas) writes:

   Whether they are Bulgarians or not is irrelevant. If they have a distinct
   sense of nationality, they can form a country. It is not of any significance
   whether you call them a Bulgarian subgroup, or people from mars.

As I said in my note, "_to the extent_ they are not a distinct group,
they are Bulgarians."  You will recall that some netters have claimed
that they are an `artificial' group created by Tito.  I was pursuing
this logic and seeing where it led.

   ...So the problem is not the slavic population.  Is the fact that
   it should not be possible to use it as an excuse for aggression....

I agree entirely.  My point was precisely that there is NOT a problem
with the Slavic population in Greece.

   ...As for their right to look after citizents of theirs abroad,
   that is of course an undeniable right.

They presumably also have the right to communicate with those they
perceive as fellow Macedonians, although they have no legal
relationship with them, just as Greek Consulates interact with ethnic
Greeks who have never had Greek nationality (e.g. ethnic Greeks from
Egypt, Turkey, etc.).

   The Greek objection is labeling the greek slavs as "macedonians".

In the sense of having close linguistic and cultural links to the
Slavo-Macedonians, this is probably reasonable for many Greek Slavs.
On the other hand, of course, very few are Slavo-Macedonian nationals.

   ...They will have to find Greek slavs that want to be called
   "macedonians" first.

So let them try.  I'm not worried.  Are you?

	-s
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,eunet.politics,soc.culture.australian,bit.listserv.politics,soc.rights.human
From: s8923098@macnab.mqcs.mq.oz.au (Josef WIDJAJA)
Subject: Re: THE ABORIGINAL GOVERNMENT OFFICIALLY RECOGNISES THE INDEPENDENCE OF MACEDONIA
Organization: Macquarie University, School of Mathematics, Physics, Computing and Electronics
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 06:57:46 GMT

In article <1992Aug20.095028.22302@ucc.su.OZ.AU> shopov@ee.su.oz.au (Sacha Shopov) writes:

   ...

|>|up the Music Awards.
|>|
|>|   This same world condemnation will soon come down upon the
|>|E.C. like ten tons of bricks. Shame Australia. Shame E.C.
|>
|>Make sure you know the facts first before you open your mouth
|>next time. The average Australian found that incident offensive
|>when it occupied the newspapers headlines for several days. The
|>owner of the bar was so embarassed that eventually he read out
|>public apology because almost everyone in Australia, from the
|>Prime Minister to housewives in suburbs was outraged. Australians 
|>should be proud with the way the whole affair was handled.
|
|The problem is that it should never have happened in the first place.
|I surely hope this attitude is not encouraged further.
|

Of course, it shouldn't have happened, that's why the average 
Australian condemned it strongly. And that's why there
is no reasonable ground for shouting "Shame Australia, Shame". 

--
 _________Josef Widjaja____________  
|  s8923098@mackay.mpce.mq.edu.au  |
|  Macquarie University, Australia | 
|__________________________________| 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,eunet.politics,soc.culture.australian
From: ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis )
Subject: Re: EDUCATION SPECIAL: MAP OF THE WORLD
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 21:11:42 GMT

sk@groo.sunbim.be (Sasa Konecni) writes:

>> (A previous posting from Constantine Varnavas) ....

>Sasa>Concerning the recognition of Macedonia read the following:

(Sasa, instead of answering to C.V., post a UPI article) 

 Yo, Sasa, have you ever taken any private lessons from mutlu? 
 Or you are just one of his fans? 
 
 Don't you know that you have to answer directly on what someone says, or
 you may not answer at all. But posting an article for reply is not
 acceptable.

 Is this the way people are getting their education
 in Skopjia? I guess, the communist regime has done nice job!

>Sasa Konecni

 Panos Tamamidis
 University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign

 P.S.: READ THE FOLLOWING:
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
^ Attention !!!!!!!  Be aware of the following new viruses:            ^
^ Konecni     virus: Similar symptoms with Mutlu virus                 ^
^ Shopov      virus: Repeats himself, and at the end says "No Regards" ^
^ Sommarskong virus: Doesn't do anything, but you can't get rid of it  ^
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.bulgaria,soc.culture.greek
From: vkb57@cas.org ()
Subject: Re: Skopje's Swiss Dreams
Organization: Chemical Abstracts Service, Columbus, Ohio
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 19:32:53 GMT

In article <BtAotp.HHy@news.cso.uiuc.edu> ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos
Tamamidis ) writes:  >vkb57@cas.org () writes:
>>In article <1992Aug20.161223.10724@wuecl.wustl.edu> jdd1@cec1.wustl.edu (James Dimos Dimarogonas) writes:
>
>>>To make it even clearer, greece did not refuse
>>>them the use of the word macedonia.  Inboth the proposals of the greek
>>>goverement, either calling it slavic macedonia, either naming a province
>>>only macedonia, we clearly did not object to the use of the word.
>
>>Could you check you records and clarify by whom and where were these proposals
>>made, as well as include a quote if possible?
>
> I think, when Mr. A. Samaras seized from foreign ministry, someone called
> Junis took his place (althoug typically Mitsotakis was foreign minister).
> Junis repeatedly said that Greece should propose the name Slavic Macedonia
> for that state. For two weeks, there was a public critisism against Junis,
> but Mr. Mitsotakis had kept a low profile in this debate.  In the mean time,
> Skopjie publicly stated (I think was both Gligorov and the then foreign
> minister) that the only acceptable name for them would be "Republic of
> Macedonia".  Based on this reaction, Mistotakis (who was initially much more
> flexible than Samaras), decided to follow Samaras's line.

Thank you for the honest, sincere, and prompt clarification. What seems from
the above to have happened is that the deputy foreign minister Junis said that
Greece SHOULD propose the name Slavic Macedonia, thereby provoking two weeks of
public criticism, and Mitsotakis clearly did not follow the suggestion. That is
a far cry from the Greek government proposing the name Slavic Macedonia. As
far as i know the official position of the Greek government was and remains
that it objects to the use of the word Macedonia in the name.

>---> Panos Tamamidis
Vasil Babamov

Xref: sparky soc.culture.yugoslavia:8050 soc.culture.jewish:14402 soc.history:7461
From: filippou@cs.mcgill.ca (Dimitrios FILIPPOU)
Subject: Skopje's Swiss Dreams (was: MACEDONIA: A SWITZERLAND...)
Followup-To: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Summary: Avoid posting HUGE articles, please!
Organization: SOCS - McGill University, Montreal, Canada
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 23:31:14 GMT

In article <93426@bu.edu> [Date: 12 Aug 92 07:59:29 GMT]
Lou Bouis (buis@buengc.bu.edu) wrote:

> Some people on this panel pointed out the analogy between Macedonia's
> and Switzerland's cases in the European history. 

 [...]

> These are the excerpts from Ivan Mihailoff's book "Macedonia: A
> Switzerland of the Balkans", which he published  right after World War 
> II. The English translation was copyrighted in April of 1950 by the 
> translator, Dr. Christ Anastasoff. 

[HUGE posting deleted]

Ms./Mr. Bouis, 

  you'd better forget your Swiss dreams. As far as I know, the
Balkans are not yet so much *civilised* to dream of federations and 
confederations. On the contrary, Yugoslavia was a (kind-of) federal
republic that fell apart. So, now, stop dreaming and better take a 
close look at the very next hot spot of x-Yugoslavia, i.e., Kosovo. 

  The recognition of B&H as an independent state didn't spare her 
from the war.  By the same token, I do not believe that the immediate 
recognition of any new state can provide any guarranties for its 
survival, especially if the foundations of this state are very shaky.

  I also find that those excerpts you copied from Mihailoff's book 
contain enough material to keep you engaged in dogfights with my 
fellow Greek netters for a long-long time. Personally, I'll try 
to resist the temptation :-) !

  Finally, I don't think that cross-posting such huge articles from 
God-knows-how-respectable-sources is very healthy neither to you 
(you waist your time, unless you have a scanner at your disposal), 
nor to the USENET readers (most of them get immediately tired and press 
"next article" after a couple of screens). 

My friendly regards,

Dimitrios Filippou

Disclaimer: The opinion expressed here are of the above-signed person
            and *not* of his employer.
Xref: sparky soc.culture.yugoslavia:8000 soc.culture.greek:7573