From: stef@Apple.COM (Stef Jones)
Newsgroups: soc.singles
Subject: Re: The "first" "move" (was Re: A R C )
Date: 14 Apr 92 05:54:50 GMT
Organization: Apple Computer Inc., Cupertino, CA

Kiran Wagle writes:

[discussion of Farrell]
>He suggests that men initiate most of the time, and are 
>responsible for the 150 steps because of this. Also, the (claimed by
>me) fact that men are quite unlikely to to turn down an offer of sex
>means that an initiating woman does not have to worry about these
>steps. 
Oh, are we only talking about encounters whose ultimate goal is sex?
If so I would tend to agree ... although I know lots of men who turn
down offers of sex. But what if the goal is something less specific,
such as friendship or romance or getting to know someone better to see
which?

I would be nervous asking someone out if I wanted nothing but sex,
and I thought there was a likelihood that they didn't want sex. 
But when I ask someone out, it is because I want to get to know them
better. Sex is not the point ... it might happen or it might not.

Maybe it is because I don't have narrow expectations that I am not
particularly nervous about asking people out.

>>My point is the risk of rejection is there at any point in the relationship,
>>not just when you first ask someone out. 
>But it seems to matter most at the beginning. Why? I dunno.
This is apparently true for you and for some people, but not for me. 
For me, asking someone out is not nearly as difficult as continuing 
to develop a relationship. For me it starts out easy and then gets 
difficult ... fortunately if the relationship continues, there are 
usually motivations that keep me going through the difficult stuff.

>>If there are 150 initiatives
>>between eye contact and sexual contact, imagine how many there are between
>>sexual contact and deciding that you want to be with this person forever.
>Probably few, in the sense that Farrell was discussing. After you have
>started sleeping together, then you can abandon this foolishness and
>get to know someone. (1/2 :-) for all those soc.singles readers who
>claim to want to get to know someone _before_ sleeping with them.) And
>there are no 'initiatives' in the sense that the decision you have
>described is yours alone.
"Yours alone"? The only kind of 'asking out' that could possibly be
interpreted as the sole decision of one person, IMO, is blindly asking 
out someone you have never talked to before. Any other kind of asking 
out comes after a certain amount of conversation, and that is not "yours 
alone" in the sense that you have information about whether the person
enjoys your company.

>>A rejection might occur anywhere along the line.
>True. Why are they scarier at the beginning? I haven't thought about
>this enough to have any ideas.
You or someone else who thinks this will have to address that 
because I don't find it scarier at the beginning.

>>>>In my experience, asking someone to go out with me for the first time
>>>>is one of the smaller risks. 
>>>And what are some of the larger risks? 
>>Expressing dissatisfaction or another negative emotion for the first time 
>>to a new romantic partner.
>Those don't seem so risky to me.
So we have different perspectives on what's scary about getting close to
someone. How about this: I'll ask you out and initiate sex, and you 
promise not to reject me if I express dissatisfaction after that. :-)

>>>How do you know? Do you read their mind? 
>>No, their body language and their words.
>Oh, you read their mind and their words. :-)
Being a verbal person, I'd say I go mostly by words.

>>>(Or have you never in your life gotten mixed signals?)
>>Yes, I've gotten mixed signals. 
>How bout signals that are not mixed, but are opposite to what they
>really felt or wanted?
No, I've never gotten signals like that. If the signals say one thing
and other behavior says another thing, further investigation has 
always revealed ambivalence and not utter failure of the signal-reading
capability. :-)

Stef                 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
stef@apple.com       It is the time you have wasted for your rose
                     that makes your rose so important.       Saint-Exupery
                     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^