From: cmort@NCoast.ORG (Christopher Morton)
Subject: Re: Why we go for non-black women:
Reply-To: cmort@ncoast.org (Christopher Morton)
Organization: North Coast Public Access *NIX, Cleveland, OH
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1993 18:34:24 GMT
Followup-To: soc.culture.african.american

As quoted from <1993Jan1.155419.25716@csus.edu> by chaneysa@nextnet.csus.edu (Stephen A Chaney):

> 
> 
> I just had the joy of having a black woman lecture me, sister to
> brother, so to speak, about my girlfriend, who is caucasian, just
> before Christmas. She takes it upon herself, as if she were in Jungle
> Fever the movie!, to lecture me about black pride. She went on about
> how wrong it is to do this to black women and that there are plenty of
> black women who are looking for brothers now.
> 
Well, it IS a tad annoying when somebody wants to take something away from you
with offering anything tangible in return.  It's also a nuisance to have people
who don't much care about your interests to tell you what to do.  I just ignore
them.

> I refused to back down about my girlfriend (new girlfriend at that),
> and we ended up in an argument about whether or not I am an Oreo.
> 
Why SHOULD you?  I presume that you aren't a minor and she isn't your mother.
I find "oreo", "nigger lover" etc. to be the tools that those who want to
control others use to enslave the gullible.  Of course saying, "You need to
obey ME in order to make me happy" is far less effective.  That's why they say,
"People who don't obey me aren't REALLY Black/White/Asian/Jewish/etc" instead.
It has much more of the ring of "authority" about it.

> I do not prefer black women because:
> 1) They have the disposition of a hornet. I have never seen anything
> more stressful as an angry black woman (but hey, they get it from some
> of the men, too - but not me). 

I don't believe in generalizing this way.  SOME do.  Some don't.

> 2) They disrespect black men and I see it every day. They are
> unforgiving - one stutter or one blunder and they're all over you,
> making fun of you.

I have an easy solution to this problem.  Don't waste time on ANYBODY Black
or White who acts this way.  Have NO fear, there ARE White women who act this
way.  There are also Black women who don't.

> 3) They come up with this lame-ass excuse about "Well, can't you be
> tough and take it?" rather than laying off of you.

That has little or nothing to do with race.  That's just a question of how much
a person thinks they can get away with with you.  How about, "No, and I'm sure
that if it's that important to you, you can find somebody who IS willing to put
up with abuse.  I'm NOT".  That's what *I* did in that situation.  The person
was White too.

> 4) They have no, absolutely NO tolerance for individual thought. As a
> person who KNEW Anita Hill was a liar, I saw just how tolerant and
> open-minded they were when I tried to be NICE and non-argumentative,
> and just present the facts on the issue. Black women are the foremost
> and fiercest enemies of black conservatives, and are the worst in the
> world at the art of getting brothers "ostracized." 
> 
Black women have no lock on this whatsoever.  IGNORANT people DO.  I didn't
believe Anita Hill either (still don't).  That usually didn't stop me from
having rational conversations with people.  Even found at least one Black woman
who didn't believe her either.

Intolerance of opposing viewpoints is usually a sign of 1) Lack of reasoning
ability.  2) Fear that they can't support their own position in debate.  In my
experience, this is just as likely in Black and White men, and White women.

> Now that I have your undivided attention, class is in session ladies:
> #1: COOL OFF. You'll never stop black men from dating outside the
>     race if you keep up your nasty attitude. You talk about how bad
>     black men are, but look at yourselves, too. (And I know some 
>     guys who act like PUNKS, but you treat us like we are all punks.)

Other than MARRYING me, no woman's going to stop me from dating whom I want 
anyway.  Race isn't a consideration in my female preferences.  Certain 
appearance criteria are, but they transcend race.

I will say that there IS a certain element of truth to what you say.  It makes
me sad to hear a woman tell me, "You're so nice, you don't even beat or abuse
me", while engaging in the sort of dysfunctional behavior that's typical of 
such relationships.  I don't make a rule of hitting women to get my way.  In
return I respect similar consideration.  All too many women think that they 
can substitute physical violence for rational discourse.  Do NOT slap me, I
won't LET you, and apart from sore wrists, you are certain to suffer from a
VERY acute lack of my company.
.
> #2: Do I have to dress up like Gucci for you? Do I need to become a
>     Mister Perfect to avoid your unnecessarily nasty disrespectful
>     attitude? I don't call you "bitch" or "hoe" and I don't slap
>     around women, either. Nor do I come on with "hey baby, etc." I
>     have something you've never heard of: MORALS. No, I won't duck
>     when I say that. It keeps me free of AIDS and overdoses and
>     jail time. It might be interesting to you to check out that
>     quality the next time you see it. (And neither us men or women
>     are perfect at it.) As long as you make fun of men like that,
>     they're going to date more tolerant women who appreciate them.

Again, I've met more than enough White women who qualify for above.  Being a
sleazy pain in the ass is NOT the sole province of any one race.  If you don't
believe me, join the Army and hang out in post towns after duty.

> #4: I'll be damned if I'm going to date you if you make fun of my
>     hobbies. I don't make fun of your funny African clothes or
>     hairdos, or your long nails or whatever. I don't expect you to
>     go crazy on me because I'm learning Japanese (which I am). Black
>     women are infamous for being intolerant of those things. Not only
>     that, but I've seen it. I've been called a half-nip and half-jap
>     and all kinds of things (though I'm 100% black) for that, and it
>     was exclusively by black women. 

That's just a sign of an insecurity around people who want to better 
themselves.  This knows no particular race.  It IS though influenced by
CLASS.  I don't hang out with people with whom I have no interests or social
outlook in common.  Let's be honest.  If you like to study Japanese or you're
interested in history, etc., and expect your date to enjoy or even understand
these things, the odds are you aren't going to find your dream date at the
bowling alley down the street from the toaster factory, or at the strip club
in the "combat zone".  A certain measure of common sense is in order.

Admittedly, this may limit your options depending upon where you are.  You have
the choice of either lowering your standards or doing without.  I mostly do
without, since I can't see any sanity in spending time and money on people who
bore or annoy me, ESPECIALLY when a certain proportion of them either want to 
marry my checking account or convert me to religions in which I have NO 
interest.

> #5: Anita Hill had NO EVIDENCE. She had TEN WITNESSES AGAINST HER.

This is neither here nor there.  I don't expect women to agree with me.
I only insist that they be able to explain themselves lucidly in rational
logical terms.  Admittedly, this is sometimes a tall order, especially
when the local culture discourages this in ALL races and genders.  YES,
I AM talking about Cleveland, the "Mediocre Satan" (not even signficant
enough to be the "Great Satan" :) )

> #6: I won't even TRY to explain black conservatism to you. Black
>     women are utter screaming fascists when they see this. You go
>     into a rage that is unseen in human beings, at the mention of
>     Clarence Thomas or the words "black conservative". "Oreo," "Uncle
>     Tom," and all that, start flying around. You'll accept Jesse
>     Jackson despite that he is an anti-semite, because he is black.
>     I'd hate to speak in opposition of him amidst 2 or more of you.
>     That is suicidal. I thought it was just me until I read Clarence
>     Thomas' "The Loneliness of the Black Conservative" and realized
>     that others, too, are feeling your hate and intolerance.
> 
To be honest with you, I've had FAR more trouble with this from a VERY few
arrogant, paternalistic Whites than I EVER have from Blacks.  I've found that
most reasonably intelligent Black people are impressed by an intelligent and
logically constructed argument, even if they don't agree with it.  Of course
such discourse is SO rare in society at large, it has considerable novelty
value if nothing else.  You'd be surprised how easy it is to change somebody's
mind too, if you argue facts and logic, and they only have "received wisdom".
I suspect that there is more heat than light in your argument....

> Well, as one who takes on the big, the bad, and the bold (and the ugly),
> I'm telling you, kiss my ass. You black women are not worth the time

Dale Carnegie you AIN'T.... :)

> makes up 99% of all AIDS cases); and where the Democrats have stuck
> you on government assistance, while claiming Republicans want to fire
> you from every job (which is bullshit but hey I'm a thought criminal
> anyway so what do you care?).. and where black men (and black women in
> many cases) are marrying and dating interracially to get away from
> your abusive attitudes (men included in the fault category here). 

I'm not a Republican, but I certainly cut the Democrats no slack.  If you 
want to confuse a sister who's very liberal, ask her what party Richard J.
Daley belonged to.  :)  There's certainly MORE than enough racism and 
paternalism to go around in the Democratic party, ESPECIALLY in places like
Chicago.   The Stevenson/La Rouche and Washington/Verdolyak debacles 
certainly proved that.  But then again, you have to have FACTS to impress
even a modestly intelligent person....



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