From: poser@vxdsyc.desy.de (Till Poser  -  ZEUS OFFLINE)
Subject:  Can we come to "peaceful coexistence"?
Followup-To: soc.culture.german
Reply-To: Poser@vxdsyc.desy.de
Organization: Deutsches Elektronen Synchrotron, Experiment ZEUS bei HERA
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 01:14:15 GMT

As I have tried to say in my German posts to s.c.g, we're up against a major 
psychological problem from both sides of the  spectrum. This post is an 
attempt at clarifying a few points that caused much hot blood in the recent
weeks and at trying to urge a cessation of the crossposting of replies to
both s.c.g and s.c.j. Though I have attempted to as evenhanded as I could
possibly manage, no doubt there will be some vituperation directed at me
as a consequence.


It is altogether understandable that someone of jewish extraction will
take offense at any attempt, real or perceived, at revising, 
relativising, ameliorating or rationalising what happened during the 3rd
Reich. The  European Jewish community suffered too many grievious wounds
at the hands of the Nazis, specifically struck at their spiritual
centers and religious foci, for most Jews, and specifically the religious 
ones, to suffer such an action kindly. However, the sheer horror of the 
Holocaust causes not a few people not to look beyond this crime itself, 
but clouds their perception about the perpetrators, the guilt by 
association of the whole people, the way into the Nazi-State itself.

On the other hand it is also understandable that most younger Germans
take issue with being unfairly and squarely lumped with what they
clearly perceive to have  been a bunch of criminals. If one stops to
think about it, it is also not all that strange that they bridle at
being called, in not at all that tactful vocabulary, to atone for the
sins of their fathers/precursors. The acrimonious  allegations that
sometimes are issued in this forum will of course elicit some responses
along the lines of "we aren't all that way" or "not all Germans of that
era were criminals, not all Germans of that era were Nazis and, indeed,
not even every Nazi was a criminal."

While the above statements are arguably and provably true, for some
people they are but salt thrown into open sores, an arument and a proof
for the duplicity and incurability of what they perceive to be the
"German character". It is not that easy to understand for quite a number
of Germans that their arguments will _not_ be received as being made in
"good faith", i.e. the a priori assumption of the good intentions of the
author, that the arguments will not receive evenhanded treatment.
 
Add to this a severe case of mutual linguistic misunderstanding -- it
should be noted that English is not exactly the native tongue of the
Germans and though the average German is somewhat facile with it, it
suffers, being nighrelated to German, from inappropriate assumptions
about the meanings of cognates -- and the asynchronous nature of the net,
and the stage is set for a ever decending spiral of allegations and
recriminations and the refutations thereof. Add to these predicaments
the inevitable ingredients of the net, such as petty bickering,
character assassination, facts made up to suit the argument, invincible
ignorance, prejudice along all available dimensions and some made up
ones in addition, unconquerable stupidity, agendas worn proudly as fact
inverting filters or fact evading blindfolds, or barely disguised sexual
innuendos, and any attempt at serious communication or honest
reconciliation, it matters not who issued it, will be ultimately lost,
drowned out or misunderstood at the present stage.

This is why the ongoing debate, such as it is, which has been
maliciously crossposted between s.c.g and s.c.j, is ultimately futile.

The Germans will, like it or not, not succeed in their, very typical,
unrequited longing for "being universally liked", i.e. accepted as
generally fine fellows by everyone. It is only human to defend oneself
from what is perceived as unfair accusation, it is also only human to
attempt to dispell misconceptions about oneself, or in extension, one's
people. I question, however, whether it be reasonable to attempt to use
the "de minorem ad majus" argumentation in this particular instance,
given that most of the Germans on the net are, themselves, reasonably
uneasy about the people they belong to. Any such attempt will almost
inevitably be viewed as apologism and reap the "appropriate" amount of
derison.

The always rather strained post-war dialogue between Jews and Germans
admits of no mean measure of grotesquerie in that very often on gets the
impression that the self-perceived victim is being beseeched by what he
perceives to be one of the victimisers for absolution, individual or
general. That this absolution is not forthcoming should not surprise
anybody, and that suchlike attempts will cause a certain strain in the
conversation is also all too understandable. It should be remembered that
such attempts, if clumsy, are generally sincere and are being made by
someone who does not perceive himself to be guilty of anything, whether
by deed or by association. 

The critics however should realise that it is unreasonable to demand the
wholesale condemnation of the German people from the latter-day Germans.
It is even more unreasonable to expect them to assume the guilt, accept
it as their very own and atone for it. It will not be forthcoming, as
much as some people will revile "the Germans" for it. At best there will
be the acknowledgement of some moral responsibility derived from the
Holocaust, not more, but certainly not less. The interpretation of the 
obligations derived from this feeling of moral responsibility is yet 
another point of contention, since this is another field where "the 
Germans" cannot help but to fall short of the expectations of many a Jew.

It is not at all that easy, given that any German born after the war has
no way of judging how _he_ would have conducted himself during the 3rd
Reich. From a 20/20-hindsight vision viewpoint everything is very
logical and straight, specifically when one's birth would have never
brought one into this particular predicament.

However, most of us can, when looking at the many small time Nazis,
Party members, officials and other people that were part of the appartus
but did not perpetrate any crimes, and those were the majority, only say
"There, but for the grace of god, go I!", if one has one least shred of
intellectual honesty. Researching the motives and actions, the thinking
and the evolution of these people and that of the criminals, and the way
the Reich came into being, and understanding the historical and
psychological mechanism, is not only reasonable but a necessity to
forestall any recursion of such a phenomenon, _where_ _ever_ that may
threaten to happen.

It has been amply demonstrated that cruelty is a human condition, not
just a German one. While the pointing of fingers to other instances of
organised and institutionalised cruelty and genocide to cloud the issue
of the uniqueness of the Shoah is rather mendacious, the contention that
solely the Germans, by flaw of character, race, upbringing etc. pp. ad
nauseam, were capable, are capable or will be capable of committing
atrocities of such scale is about as vulgar, and only serves as smug
sidestepping of the issue and the question of the unplumbed depths of
one's own soul. The old saw "Whatever You're going to do, You can never
be as bad as the Germans.", albeit immensely popular, specifically on
the net, is but a shallow selfdeception and ultimately intellectual
dishonesty. Of the same quality are those much beloved "de minorem ad
majus" arguments that take the perceived behaviour of a few people and
apply the conclusions derived thereof to the whole, that have been
creeping into this debate from both sides.

Given that the net is hardly representative of the general attitudes of
any ethnicity, nationality or other such group, it hardly matters that,
apart from it being the sorry normal state of human affairs, there are
some on the net that will scorn, ridicule and abonimate any given other
group of whatever description for whatever reason. Thus it should not
surprise at all that there are some that would hate "the Germans", as 
they perceive them, given that there are a number of people that were 
highly traumatised as a result of German actions in the past, and the 
wounds not having healed in the meantime. It is however unreasonable to 
expect "to convert" those and it is ludicrous to assume that it might 
be accomplished by way of the net, given it's fractious nature. I 
assume there are enough people who would participate in a reasoned 
debate that are repelled by the vituperativeness of the exchanges, and 
thus the debate has become utterly counterproductive.

I submit that we stop the crossposting as of now.

The resolution of this particular conflict is much better served by
meeting those on the "other side" "face to face". It is astonishing how
easy it is to reach a point of mutual understanding and respect when
being able to respond to more than just brittle words, even if the
initial positions be quite far apart and the common ground apparently
small.

All it takes is a reasonable, a small amount of good will.

(To those who have German I strongly recommend the "SPIEGEL Spezial 2/92"
with the Title "Juden und Deutsche", which amongst a lot of highly 
interesting articles contains that memorable poll that was conducted in 
both Germany and Israel at the same time (by INFAS and Gallup-Israel, 
respectively). It is utterly revealing and should serve to inject some 
factual oberservations into any debate about the present feelings of 
Israelis and Germans towards each other, or the selfperception of those
peoples.)

       Till Poser         Internet: poser@vxdsyc.desy.de
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