From: poser@vxdesy.desy.de (Till Poser  -  ZEUS OFFLINE)
Subject: Re: Loud irritating obtrusive American tourists.
Summary: zorch-o-matic set to Shake-n-Bake!
Keywords: SINIX is NIX
Reply-To: poser@vxdsyc.desy.de
Organization: Deutsches Elektronensynchrotron, Experiment ZEUS
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 21:31:40 GMT

In article <1992Aug31.134741.13471@sinix.UUCP>,
ian@sinix.UUCP (Ian Malone) vents his belly in soc.culture.usa and makes
a couple of statements which are so much schlock as to merit just a
leetle beet of cut-n-twist with the poisoned dagger (if anyone hasn't
noticed until now, foax, this is a flame!):

> In article <frank2.28@underdog.ee.wits.ac.za>
>frank2@underdog.ee.wits.ac.za (FRANK D N) writes:

>>A result of this philosophy is that these tourists don't leave the USA at 
>>home when they leave for their travels. They carry it with them everywhere 
>>they go, and seem to expect all standards and facilities to comply with what 
>>they are used to back in the U.S. 

> Well, I must admit, it *is* hard getting used to European service.  This is
> not a cut of Europe, it is just true.  American service is superior and
> I, and probably many americans, have a hard time getting used to be ignored
> by waiters, and recieving bad information because someone is 5 minutes
> away from their dejeuner and can't be bothered to find out the information 
> you need.

What a pluperpect little piece of non-inormational subjective
demagoguery! Are You claiming that You wouldn't get this in the US? I am
waiting with bated breath! I think this paragraph sets the mood for the
rest of this.

Actually, very often it is a case of "Wie's in den Wald hinruft, so
schallt es wieder heraus!". Have You considered that perchance You are
the cause, rather than merely the victim, of the effect?

>>I do not want to be guilty of generalising. I certainly have met many 
>  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>  Yea, right.

>>interesting, interested and considerate American travellers. Unfortunately, 
>>they do seem to be in the minority.

>>I would appreciate some insight on this issue.

Oy Gewalt! Wos hend mr denn hier?

> Well, because the economy and standard of living in the States is vastly
> superior to that of european countries, more Americans travel.

Well, well, well. Apart from being a rather stultiferous generalisation,
the likes of which You've flamed above, this is pretty ludicrous coming
from someone who lives in a country from which it is, by now, cheaper to
fly to the States than to the Canaries, for instance. And as to the
vastly superior economy and standard of living, well, suffer me to opine
that You are merely talking about a decidedly restricted component of US
society and even that is admitting that is not all it has been noised
about. I'd like to have tourism rate on a per capita basis and I'd be
surprised if the USA were remotely anywhere near the Swiss, the Dutch,
the Germans or, allow me to lump them together, the Scandinavians.

Actually, and further more, Your economic acumen leaves something to be
desired.

Amongst other things.

>                                                                You don't
> notice the quiet ones, just the loud ones.  Since *so* many americans do
> travel, there are more obnoxious ones.

Which is so much codswallop. I, personally, tend to notice German
tourists more than any other sort, and to whit, they do seem to be
ubiquitous. However, there is a certain type of US tourist, which will
receive "fond" recognition since se stays to well beaten paths (beaten
to death, most likely) and comes in droves which will create enormous,
though highly localised, concentrations. Since there are boors and
idiots everywhere, they, too, will be in those concentrations, and, by
stint of sheer native talent, will be the most noticable component. Yes,
I am talking about the "Europe in 7 days"-crowd and those people can,
indeed, be very trying.

As for the "Off the beaten path"-people of whatever nationality, I have
yet to find evidence for some congenital national loutishness in any,
just the usual proportion of idiots that is part of humanity.

> Besides, Americans enjoy themselves and are used to being free to express 
> themselves.

Oh, pulling the first amendment to vindicate assholery? Now I've seen
everything. Apart from grossly and idiotically stereotyping and
generalising the cultural cornucopia (I have been led to believe) that
is the US, You are skating on rather thin ice, here. Haven't You ever
heard the "a Texan/Hick/Hayseed is coming to New York/LA" type of jokes,
which are on par with any stereotyping joke about USAian tourists in
Europe. Very often they come to similar conclusions. Proof of the
pudding?

>             Unlike many of the people I meet in Europe <I live here>,
> Americans are not used to acting like scared, repressed sheep.

By that same token, New York seems to be somewhere in Europe, I guess.

Where do You say You're living? Munich, Germany? Kindly pull Your head
out of Your colon, mister! If You did, You might notice that the local
propensity for vociferous selfexpression is on par with anything any
USAian would come up with, though it might come in a different form than
what You are used to. It might surprise You that there is a time
and a place for everything, even in the US. It is a wellknown phenomenon
that the generic tourist, specifically when encountered in droves, will
indulge in behaviour se would not permit hirself, or anybody else for
that matter, at home.

And as to that "scared, repressed sheep" business, aren't You mixing up
exuberance and loutishness, or impoliteness and "freedom of expression"?
And that most probably from a very subjective personal viewpoint?

>                                                                So they are
> loud.  So they yell in the streets.  Gee, sorry.

Utterly preposterous socio-economic kitchen philosophy. The Americans I
know and met socially, whether colleagues or mere chance acquaintances,
display nothing of this behaviour, well, not more than those of any
other nationality.

> As an american living aboard I am seeing this from both sides of the argument.
> Yes, I am sometimes embarassed by other Americans, but at the same time I
> really get fed up with the service and attitude here.  the shops are all
> Closed, or everything is Not Possible.

Oooohhhh, groovy! I always wanted to do this to an USAian:
"Germany: Love it or leave it!"

Mister, I've got news for You. If You are not willing to recalibrate
Your cultural assumptions, of course You will run smack dab into
national differences. When I go to Britain, I do as the British do, and
so forth, I try to shed my personal beliefs on "How Things Should Work
And The Trains Be On Time", and I'll always be very polite and friendly
to the people who give me service, whether abroad or at home. I get
enormous mileage out of this. If You think that is below Your station,
well, suit Yourself, but don't bleat at me.

>                                        But, as for your ragging on the
> uncultured hoards of Americans infiltrating *your* tourist attraction, well,
> simply, American Tourist Bashing is getting cliche.

So why have _You_ been pissing on Your own people by the above
bathos? _You_ have, if anything, reinforced the stereotypes by
bleeping vindications, and ludicrous ones at that, instead of
putting things into proper perspective.

>                                                    Have you been living in a
> cave?

Very well, have _You_? Your remarks on Europe let me assume exactly that
of You, so reeking of selfsatisfied closeminded smugness and palpable
misapprehension were they. Let it suffice to say that I am not at all
overawed as to Your capacity of tolerance.

>       People having been saying this kind of shit for years.....

So, why have You been countering it with more of the same?

>                                                                 Or did
> you just try hitting on one of our "loose american women" and get shot
> down?

Yeah, right! Well, if out of arguments, try a non-sequitur attack to
unbalance Your opponent. What marvellous debating proficiency!

> Oh, the Japanese, another successful society with an increasing number of
> travellers, also display the same kind of loud, gleeful, confidence that
> would probably make you uncomfortable, do you not like them as well?

1) They are about the most inoffensive package tourists.

2) They are almost unfailingly painfully polite.

3) They tend to study up on how to behave and how not to behave in
   Europe, if only by reading little Miss Manners type books. At least
   for Europe.

4) They tend to be well chaperoned by either native or gone native
   guides. 

The only faint irritation I could voice is that they temporarily obscure
the attraction they've come to see for all others, but that is merely
gratuitious nitpicking for the sake of finding faults. The Japanese
Individual Tourist, however, will go to great lengths to "blend in" and
is often surprisingly knowledgable about country, culture and regional
habits. 

> Ian Malone
> Happy In Germany, but not a German

How very surprising! I mean the happy part, of course, given that You
were griping about countries which would create those "scared, repressed
sheep", of course, and which seem to forbid any vociferous
self-expression, of course, not to talk about the terribly low standard
of living, of course, and all those closed shops, which seem to be Your
major point of condemnation. Of Course!

> Or was this just flame bait?

And You have the unmitigated gall to ask that? After writing a piece of
"culturally challenged" horse-radish, which really merits a spot of
"third degree" as a response? Do You sometimes read what You pound into
the keyboard?

       Till Poser         Internet: poser@vxdsyc.desy.de
-F35- ZEUS DESY/Freiburg  Bitnet:   POSER@DESYVAX
bldg.1b-235, Notkestr.85  Hepnet:   VXDESY::POSER (13313::Poser)
   D-2000 Hamburg 52      Tel.: -49-40-8998-2004
Newsgroups: rec.travel