Newsgroups: can.politics
Subject: Re: Negative Income Tax (Was: Social programs)
From: emd@ham.almanac.bc.ca
Date: Fri, 01 Jan 93 12:00:29 PST
Distribution: can
Organization: Robert Smits

jmorriso@ee.ubc.ca (John Paul Morrison) writes:

> In article <HJwgwB1w164w@ham.almanac.bc.ca> emd@ham.almanac.bc.ca writes:
> >golchowy@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca (Gerald Olchowy) writes:
> >
> >> 
> >> The general public is under that impression because of propaganda
> >> from the left and from the rich.  The left is absolutely stupid...
> >> they argue for a progressive tax system...but since they are never
> >> in power, it is never imposed...and the rich who are in power,
> >> institute a tax system which looks progressive, but is riddled
> >> with loopholes...and creates unproductive and wasteful jobs for
> >> bureaucrats, lawyers, and accountants.  The way to get the rich
> >> to pay taxes is to have flat taxes.  The majority loses from
> >> a progressive tax system...not gains.  
> >> 
> >> Gerald
> >
> >
> >You mean that, because the left has never been in power (I presume you 
> >mean federally) it's their fault that the rich have a tax system 
> >advantageous to the rich?
> >
> >I agree with your assessment of the present tax system, but I'm more
> >pessimistic than you about the ability of the rich to evade taxes, flat 
> >rate or not.
> 
> The left has a notion that runs like this:
> 'since you are more productive, better educated, more efficient, and
> work harder, or have had some luck on your side, you are morally OBLIGATED
> to hand over fistfulls of money over to governments who didn't earn that
> money'
> 
Your characterization of the "left" (which, by the way, is certainly not
...um.. monotheistic, for want of a better term) is childish. Goverments 
of all stripes (and we have NEVER EVER had a "left" wing federal 
government in Canada) are only too ready to take money from their 
citizens. Taxation in general is not a matter of ideology, although the 
right and left would probably have very different notions of what to 
spend taxation money on.

> Now I won't get into the MORAL side of the argument, because that is
> irrelevant (ie lefties will say we ARE obligated to look after one another,
> righties will disagree. The result will be a shouting match.)
> 
> The objective side is different: the people who try to evade taxes are
> really just trying to preserve the property they own (they aren't trying
> to take it away from others). Since taxes consist of payment for services 
> one receives (which morally or objectively, you must pay for) and 
> payment for 'other stuff' that has debatable merits. Pure self interest,
> and purely rational behavior for that individual (depending on relative
> risks). Just try taking food away from an animal that's eating it. The
> behavior is no different.
> 
No, you've got it wrong. People who try to avoid taxes fall into the 
category you describe. It's perfectly legitimate to try to structure your 
affairs in such a way as to pay the minumum in taxes. It's quite another 
to try to evade taxes you are legally obligated to pay. Tax evasion is 
criminal, it's wrong, and it's theft from your fellow citizens.

> One can look at the motives for action of 'society'. Society somehow
> deems that it is the starving hyena, and must try and take the food
> away from the lion that has caught (earned) it. This is rational
> behavior for an individual, but it is questionable behavior for a government.
> 
> By each individual persuing his own perceived self interest, you get a much
> better balance: the best prosper the most ,but things like charity and
> compassion for others also evolve, as a form of self interest (if you
> have enough, it doesn't hurt to give a BIT to those without enough, if
> only to stave off envy and violent mobs).
> 
> Again, whether we are OBLIGATED to provide for others, is a MORAL choice,
> not something that is a fact, based on a person's self interest.`
> __________________________________________________________________________
>  John Paul Morrison                     |  
>  University of British Columbia, Canada |  
>  Electrical Engineering                 |   .sig file without a cause
>  jmorriso@ee.ubc.ca              VE7JPM |  
> ________________________________________|_________________________________


Personally, I'm glad we don't have to depend on the charity of others to 
see that the less advantaged in our society are looked after. I'm not 
anxious to go back to the workhouses of victorian England, for example.


emd@ham.almanac.bc.ca  (Robert Smits, Ladysmith B.C.)

Support your fellow Canadians. We should buy lousy Canadian novels 
instead of importing lousy American novels. - Johnny Wayne
Xref: sparky can.politics:10991 soc.culture.canada:9587