HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ishikawa@ds5200.personal-media.co.jp (Chiaki Ishikawa)
Newsgroups: fj.misc
Subject: Re: Real Name Declaration (Was: How to survive in Japan)
Date: 29 Sep 92 11:49:54 GMT
	<1992Sep10.035433.9847@rkna50.riken.go.jp> <2630@aegis.or.jp>
	<CLAUDE.92Sep11105737@tokyo.trc.mew.mei.co.jp> <2641@aegis.or.jp>
	<ISHIKAWA.92Sep14230936@ds5200.personal-media.co.jp>
	<KENJI.92Sep16103559@ka
Reply-To: ishikawa@personal-media.co.jp
Distribution: fj
Organization: Personal Media Corp., Tokyo Japan
In-reply-to: claude@trc.mew.mei.co.jp's message of 29 Sep 92 01:34:51 GMT

In article <CLAUDE.92Sep29103505@tokyo.trc.mew.mei.co.jp> claude@trc.mew.mei.co.jp (Claude Huss) writes:

   In fact, there are people immigrating. I don't have any data now, but great 
   parcel of Japanese living in USA came after 1964 (Would be Japan classified
   as "poor" that time?). 

I should have known that the number has increased after 1964. (On the
other hand, after the WW-II, not many travelled abroad until the
situation has improved. So my guess is that the level of
emigration/immigration back in, say, 1920-1930 must have been restored
late 1960 or early 1970. And then of course, newly found wealth
started to send out more businessmen to outside Japan.

   Many times when I talk about rights to foreigners living here, I heard 
   the same phrase: "Japan is not America" (in the sense that Japan is not
   a country for immigration). I wonder who will be paying their pensions
   50 years after... 

I am not sure who you are talking to, but I can imagine the type of
people who would be saying these things. There are many Japanese
businessmen's families living outside Japan, who in turn put some load
on local welfare/education system as well. You might remind them about
this.

   Well, I'm not speaking that would be better to have
   immigration, but I think if there are people here NOW,they would have to
   assure some rights like make easier to have "permanent resident" status 
   or naturalization, protect against abuses and make mechanisms to those
   people join the society preserving their original cultures.  

Agreed, especially about protection against abuses. Manual labor has
been plagued with the tie to underground mafiasso's meddling in labor
management for a long time (I don't know about NOW, but it was back in
my childhood), and chances for abuses are just big just like you can
find in situations surrounding illegal Mexican workers, say, in
California.  Eg. Make them work hard and then you call immigration
office anonymously and have the workers arrested and deported. You
don't pay them salaries. What a raw deal. I have seen some newspaper
articles about similar cases.

   # 2 yens worth???

Eh, pun on my 2 cents worth... Never mind.

//Chiaki Ishikawa
From: davidg@aegis.or.jp (Dave McLane)
Newsgroups: fj.misc
Subject: Re: Real Name Declaration (Was: How to survive in Japan)
Date: 1 Oct 92 22:32:06 GMT
Distribution: fj
Organization: Aegis Society, Kyoto Japan

kenji@tom.astem.or.jp (Kenji Rikitake) writes:

>Dave McLane (davidg@aegis.or.jp) wrote:
>: kenji@tom.astem.or.jp (Kenji Rikitake) writes:
>: My guess is that the Japanese who are in the US are probably
>: working/living with a relatively small subset of the US culture: the
>: upper-middle class of which I am a member by virtue of the fact that
>: I went to college and have acquired some non-manual skills.
>[rest deleted]

>I agree with Dave on this. I didn't learn a lot about bad points of
>US society when I was in Boulder, Colorado 18 years ago - and I
>should confess that my information about US is mostly second-hand
>basis.

While I spent most of my life among the middle class I had two
direct experiences with members of other classes within the US: 4
years in the US air force as an enlisted man (1955-59), and 2 years
living in a small town in N. California where the principle industry
was logging (1970-72). That's such a long time ago that details
wouldn't be very relevant to what life in the US is like today, but
I would guess there are still basic differences between lifestyles. 

When I was in the US last spring visting my daughter we had long
talks about how her life as turned out, considering her childhood.
She was born in LA, her mother and I were divorced when she was 2
and she moved around between her mother and I, living sometimes in
LA and sometimes with me in N. California or other places. Then her
mother got remarried and she went to live in Vermont, way down a
one-lane country road in an old farmhouse. Most of the kids she went
to school with were country or working-class people. After 6 years,
her mother moved to Santa Monica and she went to Santa Monica high
school. What a great learning experience!

IMO, most everything that gets written about the US is about the
middle or upper class, and the few things that are about the other
classes are highly idealistic. If you're Arnold Schwarzenegger (sp?)
and you walk into a country-style bar (as in Terminator II) you come
out of it OK. But if you're a middle-class kid like me and you walk
into a place like that (and I have), you feel lucky to get alive... 

Dave

--
Dave McLane  davidg@aegis.or.jp
You're free to copy/quote/translate as long as credit is given. 
Nagaokakyoshi, Kyoto Japan Tel: +81-75-951-1168 Fax: +81-75-957-1087
From: inagaki@aclab1.resrch.anritsu.co.jp (Shintaro Inagaki)
Newsgroups: fj.misc
Subject: Re: Conventional Wisdom[English]
Date: 1 Oct 92 08:18:41 GMT
	<2776@aegis.or.jp>
Organization: Research Lab., Anritsu Corp., Atsugi-shi, JAPAN
In-reply-to: davidg@aegis.or.jp's message of 29 Sep 92 23:39:23 GMT

In article <2776@aegis.or.jp> davidg@aegis.or.jp (Dave McLane) writes:
    >>
    >>>I wonder whether there is any difficulty to survive in Japan
    >>>because many people expect your way of thinking/action
    >>>to be according to Japan-side Conventional Wisdom.
    >>>e.g.:
    >>>In Japanese Conventional Wisdom,
    >>>beard should be limited to a certain people, such as University professors.
    >>>So I wonder in case you wore beard and you loved to,
    >>>you would have difficulty to get a job as salesperson,
    >>>or you would be rejected to have a credit card. 
    >>
    >>I think getting a credit card would be a bit different. If beards
    >>signified University professors (and University professors were
    >>given credit cards), then maybe it would be useful to appear at the
    >>counter and apply for a credit card with a beard ... and a suit, and
    >>a briefcase full of books and papers, and whatever else would help
    >>your case. 
    >>
I am afraid, no.
If you have beard, go to a bank to apply for a credit card
and fills in the form that your affiliation is mere office worker,
the bankers will doubt your character is really all right.
So you might have trouble to get a card.

To persuade people that you have a good character,
you may have to act, or pretend to act,
in accordance with Japanese Conventional Wisdom.

I think this sometimes causes lack of freedom for foreigners.

--
		$@%"%s%j%D!J3t!K8&5f=j!!Bh#38&5fIt(J
			$@0p3@?5B@O:!!(Jinagaki@aclab1.resrch.anritsu.co.jp
Newsgroups: fj.misc
From: claude@trc.mew.mei.co.jp (Claude Huss)
Subject: Re: Real Name Declaration (Was: How to survive in Japan)
Organization: Matsushita Electric Works Ltd., Tokyo, Japan.
	<1992Sep10.035433.9847@rkna50.riken.go.jp> <2630@aegis.or.jp>
	<CLAUDE.92Sep11105737@tokyo.trc.mew.mei.co.jp> <2641@aegis.or.jp>
	<ISHIKAWA.92Sep14230936@ds5200.personal-media.co.jp>
	<KENJI.92Sep16103559@ka
	<ISHIKAWA.92Sep28212912@ds5200.personal-media.co.jp>
Distribution: fj
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 01:35:05 GMT


Chiaki> I don't know if Japan has taken advantage of immigration policies of
Chiaki> other countries (except for this MITI or somebody's stupid idea of
Chiaki> promoting the stay of retired (and presumably rich?) people in foreign
Chiaki> coutnries like Spain, etc. I couldn't believe they talk about it with
Chiaki> straight face!) My grandfather's brothers emigrated to Canada, but it
Chiaki> was long time ago, and then Japan was a poor country. I don't know if
Chiaki> we should make a judgement here. 

In fact, there are people immigrating. I don't have any data now, but great 
parcel of Japanese living in USA came after 1964 (Would be Japan classified
as "poor" that time?). 

Many times when I talk about rights to foreigners living here, I heard 
the same phrase: "Japan is not America" (in the sense that Japan is not
a country for immigration). I wonder who will be paying their pensions
50 years after... Well, I'm not speaking that would be better to have
immigration, but I think if there are people here NOW,they would have to
assure some rights like make easier to have "permanent resident" status 
or naturalization, protect against abuses and make mechanisms to those
people join the society preserving their original cultures.  

Chiaki> Re Trade policy, for sure! Today's Japan is a workhorse of world
Chiaki> economy and undue restrictions about import to the country is
Chiaki> inexcusable!

Yes, I think you're completely right. I think it's time to stop to think
about Japan as an "exporter country without resources", and make
improvements to correct this situation. My grandfather always said
"it's very easy to be the second". I think Japan continues thinking
about themselves as "the second", because they don't have to take
the charges and responsabilities to be the "first" (in economics,
at least...). This is very sad, because create a "vacuum" in the
world economics, in my opinion. 

# 2 yens worth???
--
+----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------+
| Claude Huss          | Matsushita Electric Works, Ltd. Tokyo Research Labs.|
| Network Researcher/  | Mita 5-13-2, Minato-Ku, Tokyo 108, JAPAN            |
| Engineer             | Phone: +81-3-3452-4941 Fax: +81-3-3451-0793         |
+----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------+
| Disclaimer: "The opinions expressed here are strictly my own"              |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Every man is as God made him, ay, and often worse.
		-- Miguel de Cervantes
From: inagaki@aclab1.resrch.anritsu.co.jp (Shintaro Inagaki)
Newsgroups: fj.misc
Subject: Re: Conventional Wisdom[English]
Date: 5 Oct 92 03:23:32 GMT
	<2786@aegis.or.jp>
Organization: Research Lab., Anritsu Corp., Atsugi-shi, JAPAN
In-reply-to: davidg@aegis.or.jp's message of 3 Oct 92 01:29:52 GMT

In article <2786@aegis.or.jp> davidg@aegis.or.jp (Dave McLane) writes:
    >>
    >>>To persuade people that you have a good character,
    >>>you may have to act, or pretend to act,
    >>>in accordance with Japanese Conventional Wisdom.
    >>Naturally.
    >>>I think this sometimes causes lack of freedom for foreigners.
    >>IMO, a lot of the perceived lack of freedom comes because people
    >>don't realized that their own conventional wisdom only applies to
    >>where they learned it. Each culture has it's own CW; if you want to
    >>get along, it's useful to learn what it is. 
    >>
I believe many troubles in surviving in Japan
come from innocence and/or misunderstanding of the Conventional Wisdom,
rather than deliberate negligence of it.

Now, note:
1) it is not easy to learn local Conventional Wisdom,
because local people are so familiar with it
that they do not properly explain it nor even notice it.
2) networking will be a powerful communication tool
to learn Conventional Wisdom
because you can put in any questions from any place any time
and can get answers from any place any time.
You are likely to have helpful answeres.

So it is beneficial to many netters to discuss Conventional Wisdom here in fj.

Let me present an example that innocence of Conventional Wisdom hurts people:

I remember a friend of mine, who is a Japanese German in Munich.
She is a part-time guide for Japanese tourists.

She complained to me that
men of Japanese travel companies were unkind;
they often asked her to apologize the tourists
for delayed planes, lost baggages, bad hotel service etc.
She said that they disliked her and were deliberately unkind to her
and that it was very uncomfortable to apologize what was not her fault at all.

I was very surprised;
after living in Germany for a quoter of century, she forgot
Japanese Conventional Wisdom.
In Japan, it is quite common that a tour guide apologize the tourists,
"we are terribly sorry the trip might not be perfect pleasure for you,
dispit our hard effort to make it absolutely wonderful,"
or something like that, representing the travel company.
This is one of those diplomatic phrases;
travel companies continue apologizing all the time.
No one think the guide is responsible for any fault,
nor the company is unkind to the guide.

It is sad that travel-company men offended a lady
merely because they assumed she is familiar to a Conventional Wisdom.

Moreover, this is an example how it is difficult to learn
Japanese Conventional Wisdom even for a Japanese
when she has little communication to her Japanese friends.

--
		$@%"%s%j%D!J3t!K8&5f=j!!Bh#38&5fIt(J
			$@0p3@?5B@O:!!(Jinagaki@aclab1.resrch.anritsu.co.jp
Newsgroups: fj.misc
From: marbm-b@ascii.co.jp (Marcos Bachir Mubaied)
Subject: Re: Conventional Wisdom
Organization: ASCII Corp. Tokyo, Japan
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 06:53:23 GMT


inagaki@aclab1.resrch.anritsu.co.jp Mon Oct  5 12:23:32 1992 writes:

>In Japan, it is quite common that a tour guide apologize the tourists,
>"we are terribly sorry the trip might not be perfect pleasure for you,
>dispit our hard effort to make it absolutely wonderful,"
>or something like that, representing the travel company.
>This is one of those diplomatic phrases;
>travel companies continue apologizing all the time.
>No one think the guide is responsible for any fault,
>nor the company is unkind to the guide.


	$BF|K\<R2q$K$O8D?M@-$,B8:_$7$F$O$$$1$J$$$H>ZL@$^$G$$$+$J$$$,(J
	$BL@$i$+$K<($5$l$F$$$k!#;d$K8@$o$;$l$P<+J,$r<N$F$F=8CD$K(J
	$BN.$5$l$k$H$$$&$N$O:GDc$N?M@8$@$H;W$&!#(J

-- 
               ___   | |       |  ___   | |  /|  |  | |              |
              |  |  _| |         |  |  _| | /_|  |  | |    |  |  |   |
       o_|__|____| |   | | o |_o____| |   |   |__|__| |  o_|__|__|___|
   ___/   oo    ___|     |___|     ___|              ___/          o
Xref: sparky fj.misc:764 fj.soc.law:324
From: davidg@aegis.or.jp (Dave McLane)
Newsgroups: fj.misc
Subject: Re: Real Name Declaration (Was: How to survive in Japan)
Date: 29 Sep 92 23:24:26 GMT
Distribution: fj
Organization: Aegis Society, Kyoto Japan

kenji@tom.astem.or.jp (Kenji Rikitake) writes:

>Chiaki Ishikawa (ishikawa@ds5200.personal-media.co.jp) wrote:
>: I don't know if Japan has taken advantage of immigration policies of
>: other countries [rest deleted]

>Quite a lot of Japanese are working abroad (e.g. New York and other
>major US cities). I think they are fairly well-treated. I see several
>Japanese persons who showed me their US greencards. Does Japan provide
>such beneficial and friendly attitude towards non-Japanese residents?

Most probably not, but IMO this is like comparing apples to oranges.

If we compare Japan as a whole to the US as a whole we might say
that non-passport holders are treated "better" in the US. But as we
have talked about before, Japan is more of an ethnic/cultural
*nation* than the US so the comparison isn't really so useful. 

While people from outside of the US tend to think of it as One Big
Open Country this really isn't so. There are ethnic/cultural groups
within the US and if you aren't a member you don't get treated well. 

My guess is that the Japanese who are in the US are probably
working/living with a relatively small subset of the US culture: the
upper-middle class of which I am a member by virtue of the fact that
I went to college and have acquired some non-manual skills. I can
fit in fairly easily with people in this class but if I were to try
and work/live with another class, I believe I would have a very hard
time indeed. I certainly did before, when I moved from the city to
the country, and from what I hear things haven't changed all that
much..... 

Along the same lines, I think there is a lot of confusion because
people think that when they meet people like me they think they are
meeting a typical American. This isn't so. Just about everybody who
has a teaching/working visa for Japan is a member of the upper
middle class. Ordinary Americans don't come here except perhaps as
tourists, and probably not very many middle class people (or lower)
can afford it. 

So we have all these upper middle class Americans (or upper middle
class people from other countries) trying to get along with all the
classes that exist in Japan (and if you'll tell me that Japan is all
middle class, I'll just smile :-) IMO, once you stop believing in
what people *say*, and figure out what the in-fact classes are and
begin to act appropriately, life becomes easier whether you are in
Japan, the US, or any country. 

Dave

--
Dave McLane  davidg@aegis.or.jp
You're free to copy/quote/translate as long as credit is given. 
Nagaokakyoshi, Kyoto Japan Tel: +81-75-951-1168 Fax: +81-75-957-1087
From: mariko@magic.`hostname`.cow.melco.co.jp (Mariko Kusunoki)
Newsgroups: fj.lan
Subject: SNMP agent IP address
Date: 2 Oct 92 19:00:35 GMT
Distribution: fj
Organization: Mitsubishi Electric, Kamakura, Japan.


$@Fo!w;0I)(J$@EE5!$G$9!#(J

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--
  $@Fo(J $@KcN$;R!J(JMariko Kusunoki$@!K(J
     mariko@nkai.cow.melco.co.jp
From: naonao@flab.fujitsu.co.jp (Naohito Nakamura)
Newsgroups: fj.rec.autos
Subject: Re: Where is a battery ?
Date: 29 Sep 92 13:12:34 GMT
	<SAWAMURA.92Sep28135905@slyn05.asc.slsi.sony.co.jp>
Distribution: fj
Organization: Fujitsu Laboratories Ltd., Kawasaki, Japan.
In-reply-to: sawamura@asc.slsi.sony.co.jp's message of 28 Sep 92 04:59:05 GMT

$@CfB<!w#F%i%\$G$9(J$@!#(J

In article <SAWAMURA.92Sep28135905@slyn05.asc.slsi.sony.co.jp> sawamura@asc.slsi.sony.co.jp (Tomoki Sawamura) writes:

>   $@%\%s%M%C%H$,8e$m$+$i3+$/$3$H$N%a%j%C%H$G$9$,!"2F>l$N%*!<%P!<%R!<%H$r(J
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$@!t(J $@>o<1$G$7$?$i<:Ni$7$^$7$?(J$@!#(J
--
				$@CfB<(J $@D>?M(J $@!w(J ($@3t(J)$@IY;NDL8&5f=j(J $@@n:j(J
Xref: sparky fj.rec.autos:4735 fj.followup:517
From: kim@gssm.otsuka.tsukuba.ac.jp (Kim Tong Ho)
Newsgroups: fj.rec.autos,fj.followup
Subject: Re: atariya
Date: 1 Oct 92 21:46:18 GMT
Organization: GSSM Otsuka, Univ. of TSUKUBA, Tokyo, Japan

Adachi> 				$B$*CN$i$;(J

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--
$B6b(J $BEl8W(J
Newsgroups: fj.rec.autos
From: araki@sfc.keio.ac.jp (Sumio Araki)
Subject: Re: Where is a battery ?
Organization: Keio University Shonan Fujisawa Campus.
	<1992Sep22.010638.20909@msr.mei.co.jp>
	<BYKIN.92Sep23182931@orange.elcom.nitech.ac.jp>
	<KURO.92Sep24185845@ulisand.ulis.ac.jp>
Distribution: fj
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 01:41:31 GMT

$@9SLZ!w7DXf>EFnF#Bt$G$9!#(J

In article <KURO.92Sep24185845@ulisand.ulis.ac.jp> kuro@ulis.ac.jp (Kuroda Tetsuya) writes:


 | $@%:%P%j(J, $@$=$l$O@N$N%U%!%_%j%"MM$G$7$g$&!*(J

  $@$H$$$&$3$H$O!"@N$N(J($@><OB#4#0G/(J$@Be(J)$@$N%^%D%@$O3'$=$&$@$C$?$N$+$J!)2f$,2H(J
$@$G$N$C$F$$$?=iBe%+%Z%i%m!<%?%j!<$b$=$&$G$7$?!#(J

--
$@9SLZ=cIW(J(Sumio Araki)  araki@sfc.keio.ac.jp
$@7DXf5A=NBg3X>EFnF#Bt%-%c%s%Q%9%a%G%#%"%;%s%?!<(J   $@")(J252 $@F#Bt;T1sF#(J5322$@!!(J
Tel:  0466-47-5111 ex2514 or 0466-47-5000-2514 ($@$?$@$7%H!<%s2s@~(J)
Fax:  0466-47-5043
Newsgroups: fj.rec.autos
From: honda@collins.esi.yamanashi.ac.jp (Hiroki Honda)
Subject: Turbo
X-Nntp-Posting-Host: collins.esi.yamanashi.ac.jp
Organization: Dept. of Electrical Eng. & Comp. Sci., Yamanashi Univ., Japan.
Distribution: fj
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 09:11:15 GMT


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--

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