HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: barlow@prodigal.psych.rochester.edu (Rebel)
Newsgroups: misc.kids
Subject: Re: Circum.: When Parents Disagree :-(
Date: 24 Dec 92 00:51:28 GMT
Organization: University of Rochester - Rochester, New York


 This is interesting...my fiance and I had discussed this issue several times
in the past and he was definitely for it...and like you said he was willing to
admit that his reasons weren't really that substantial...and I was slightly
against it but not strongly against probably because I don't have a penis. :-)
Anyway in reading misc.kids throughout this thread I have become more against
then previously and I decided to bring up the discussion again. Once again my
fiance was for it, and we discussed the issues of our son not feeling different
from other children, to which I replied that as more parents nowadays are NOT
circumcising their children that if you do he may still not "fit" in. We
discussed the medical benefits etc... And then I brought up the risks involved
in the procedure...all the horror stories told here on the net...by the time I
got to the story posted about how the poster had witnessed his brother
screaming in the bathroom unable to urinate due to complications from
circumcision...my fiance was practically yelling "Ok OK We don't HAVE to do
it...We won't circumcised him ..I swear. Please stop talking about it...Stop
f*cking with my penis!!!" *laugh* and he had a VERY uncomfortble and squemish
look on his face. :-) Needless to say, we likely will NOT be circumcising our
son ...

Your mileage my vary ;-)
Jen
From: dolson@crl.ucsd.edu (Mark Dolson)
Newsgroups: misc.kids
Subject: Toddler Genital Names (was: "Stop Grabbing Your Penis!")
Date: 29 Dec 1992 14:08:13 -0600
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu


WARNING: GRAPHIC LANGUAGE BELOW !!  :-)   :-)

>>This off the original subject, but does it really feel good at that age??  Do
>>3 year olds really have feelings in "down there"??  My 2.5 yo daughter touches

>Yes they do. Lots of little girls masturbate. The only problem is
>getting them not to do it in public since they don't KNOW that
>that's what they're doing. They only know it feels good. Think
>about using somemore accurate terms than "down there" with your children.

OK, here goes.... WHICH accurate terms?

Story:  A couple of months ago, my daughter, then 19 months, after pointing
at various body parts and identifying them, put her finger directly on
her clitoris and asked "Dat?".  I automatically responded with the correct
term, which she wanted repeated a few times.  As I repeated, though, I
became less certain whether I was saying the right thing.  I want to give
Emily accurate information, but also to use the common toddler-approved
words (poop vs bowel movement, for example).  Somehow, I don't think
little girls go around talking about their clitorises (clitori?).  Some
friends seem to use the word vagina for the whole area, which is fine,
I guess, if that's the common vernacular, but it feels strange to me to
tell Emily that her clitoris is a vagina, especially with the awareness
that so many of us have that they seem all too far apart at times :-).

So I'd love to hear the net.wisdom on this one.  I think many are in
my position of starting from the beginning, since I think "dowm there"
is about as specific as my mother got!

I'll post a summary if anyone is interested! :-)

Laura Dolson
dolson@crl.ucsd.edu


Newsgroups: misc.kids
From: ren@Turing.ORG (Karen Prestemon)
Subject: Re: Protecting children in Public Schools
Organization: The Turing Project, Public Access Internet Host
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 04:02:38 GMT

In article <C03ILr.IFJ@SSD.intel.com> wang@ssd.intel.com (Wen-Lin Wang) writes:
>In article <dlhanson.19.725753805@nap.amoco.com> dlhanson@nap.amoco.com (David L. Hanson) writes:
>>I saw this posted on USENET last week. Since my children are homeschooled,
>>they are not subjected to these kinds of indoctrination and prying but for
>>those whose children are incarcerated in the public socialist system, this
>>information can help you to protect them.
>>
*absurd letter deleted--no flames, but I think this goes too far*
>>
>...
>As a parent I am curious about the school/parent relation here in the US,
>I wonder how much trust does the school system demand from the parents.
>How much can a parent question/request the school regarding to the 
>curriculum, activities, policies without fearing that their children
>may get ostracised by the teachers?  How much info regarding those 
>mentioned will be provided to parents initially by the school?  Are there

*rest of the question deleted*

A true story:  at a fairfax county public high school, one of my friends
joined the chorale, a choir class that did do some performances after
school.  The $#@! teacher of this class sent a letter home with each 
student stating that in order to take this class, chorale was the be
THE NUMBER ONE PRIORITY in that student's life.  The letter was to
be signed by a parent and returned to the teacher.

Missy's father took one look at this piece of paper and sat down to
draft a letter.  He said that his daughter's priorities in life were,
in descending order, Family, Church, Academic Courses, THEN Chorale.
The teacher was incensed.  Missy participated in chorale for two years,
but her grades suffered because the guy didn't like her, and although
she was a fantastic singer, she wasn't chosen to participate in the\
elite performance group.  

I've never understood high school teachers needs to run our lives the
way they did.  I ran track for two years, and here was a man telling
a bunch of young, seriously underweight teenage girls, that they ate
too much.  What a guy!

Anyway, I am an atheist and I couldn't care less about most of the
issues that the original poster was talking about.  I am concerned
that public schools are moving away from the basics and concentrating
too much on feel-good psychology.  I am sick of reading about
money being poured into school systems where test scores are, in fact,
dropping as a result.  There are kids in one-room school houses
in the mid-west who are kicking everyone's ass on the SATs, and getting
into MIT and Harvard, and people are bitching that urban kids are
suffering because no one will spend money on them.  I am going to be having
my first baby this summer, and I am already concerned for this kid's
future.

Forgive me for blasting away, but I have been doing a lot of reading
about the crappy educational system we have in this country, and it
makes me furious.

--Karen
Newsgroups: misc.kids,alt.atheism,soc.men
From: beaver@castor.cs.psu.edu (Don Beaver)
Subject: Re: A few facts about circumcision
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 17:14:31 GMT

In article <1992Dec22.203320.53231@watson.ibm.com> strom@Watson.Ibm.Com (Rob Strom) writes:
>In article <1h7lh5INNdih@terminator.rs.itd.umich.edu>, potts@oit.itd.umich.edu (Paul Potts) writes:
>
>|> Among my earliest memories are memories of going to a doctor multiple
>|> times to be treated for a swollen, purple, infected circumcision scar.
>|> My penis is pretty normal now, but the area below and around the glans
>|> is largely scar tissue - inflexible, dry, and easily irritated, like
>|> a rubber band constricting the glans. When I become sore from sex, the
>|> circumcision scar is invariably the only part that becomes sore. I'm
>|> pretty well convinced that if I had a foreskin intact, I would be able
>|> to engage in sex longer without becoming sore, and not wincing half
>|> the time when my partner plays with my penis a little too roughly.
>|> Now, I'm not a genital cripple, and enjoy my sex life, but feel that
>|> perhaps it could be a little bit better with original factory equipment.
>
>You remember what happened when you were 8 days old???

(Didn't you read: "multiple times"?)

I don't know how much time you spend at playgrounds, but in the
summertime, in the well-populated playgrounds in New York, it is
not a rare thing to see a naked 1- or 2-year old with fully evident
healing problems.

As for memories, I won't speak for the above victim, but I recall very
clearly my fright at a huge dog owned by friends of my parents, when I 
was two years old.  So I don't doubt this victim might remember the
physical violation of his penis even earlier.


>Jewish circumcisions (which is where this thread originally started)
>are not performed by "the medical establishment".
>
>The mohel who circumcized me did nothing but circumcisions;
>the mohel who circumcized my son did nothing but circumcisions.

I've always wondered about how the "tradition" of circumcision would
survive if it were practiced at bar mitzvahs instead.  Nobody could
then rationalize it away (dogs don't feel pain; babies don't feel pain; 
babies don't remember).  Take it like a man, when you're a man.

Don
-- 
beaver@cs.psu.edu                       Opinions from the PC-challenged
Newsgroups: misc.kids
From: elise@ticipa.pac.sc.ti.com (Elise Wade)
Subject: Re: Holiday Medical Help (was Re: _whine_)
Organization: Texas Instruments
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 19:17:25 GMT

In article <1992Dec28.182756.16867@ast.saic.com> hyler@ast.saic.com writes:
>Having survived now, I thought I would send out a "think about this"
>message:
>
>  What do you do when your child gets sick on a major holiday and you
>  will need both Doctor and Pharmacy?
>
>Of course, the hospital emergency room is always available, but unless
>you are seriously hurt you will wait and wait and wait with a miserably
>sick child.
>

Gee, the few times my kids have been sick after regular hours
(including one holiday) the doctor on call in the clinic met
us at their office.  I was under the impression this was standard
practice.  A friend of mine whose child has been seriously ill, meets 
her doctors at one of several hospital emergency rooms -- this
is *not* the same as a walk-in admission.  They have always
been met promptly and had immediate access to the needed equipment.

Of course, we are fortunate to live in a big city (Dallas) and
there are *always* pharmacies open.

Elise.
Newsgroups: misc.kids
From: CREECH@LSTC2VM.stortek.com (Teresa Creech)
Subject: Re: ultrasound
Organization: StorageTek SW Engineering
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 21:23:31 GMT

In article <1hq8vtINN3n1@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>
cn262@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Cindy Carpenter) writes:
 
>
>don't), I wouldn't have one.  Ultrasounds are very *widely* used, but they
>haven't been used for a very *long* period of time, and there hasn't been
>much research into possible long term side effects.  They certainly seem
>safe, but why take chances if you don't NEED to?
 
It's been about 10 years since I had my first ultrasound and i *think* that
that was about the time that ultrasounds started to be widely used.  That
is a pretty long period of time in my book, especially since the technician
told us that ultrasound had been being used in the medical field and on
pregnant woman for much longer (about 20 years??).  I don't remember the
exact numbers (10 years is a long time to me), but using ultrasound during
pregnancy is not a *new* practice.
Newsgroups: misc.kids
From: jill@sol.asl.hitachi.com (Jill Boyce)
Subject: Re: Is my baby eating too much?
Reply-To: jill@sol.asl.hitachi.com
Organization: Hitachi America Ltd
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 15:22:53 GMT

What your nurse said seems contrary to what my pediatrician said.  I am the
mother of a 8 month old who is big for his age and a big eater.  My pediatrician
said not to think about putting him on a diet at this point, but to let him eat
as much as he wants.  (But, not to think that he is hungry every time he cries --
he might just want to be held, etc.)  (My baby has actually slowed his growth and
eating the last month or so.)

My advice is not to trust the nurse, but to insist on talking to the doctor about
it.  And if you don't like the doctor's advice, try finding another whose advice
you do like.  Good luck.

Jill Boyce
jill@sol.asl.hitachi.com

Newsgroups: misc.kids
From: forbush@vxdesy.desy.de
Subject: Re: Funny things they say, 22mo (17 months)
Organization: (DESY, Hamburg, Germany)
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 10:07:50 GMT

In article <mks2vmn@rpi.edu>, nelsonc@colossus.cs.rpi.edu (Chris Nelson) writes:
> I have to preface this by saying that I have to be one of the few
> people who have slipped past the unofficial entrance exam and entered
> RPI not liking beer or, worse, hockey.  My wife, on the other hand, is
> a great fan.  Our daughter now goes to the campus day care center and
> they frequently trot the toddler class over to the fieldhouse to watch
> hockey practice.  
> 
> This evening, I was rocking my daughter to sleep in the living room and
> the TV was on.  A commercial for the World Wrestling Federation show
> at the local arena came on and my daughter perked up and offered
> "Hockey!".  As violent and silly a "sport" as I think hockey to be,
> that seemed particularly fitting; I haven't laughed so hard in days.

I saw this and I just had to write. About two months ago when my daughter
Kelsey was about 17 months she saw the WWF on TV. Without any
encouragement (My wife and I were in the kitchen getting things
ready for dinner.) my daughter began throwing herself to the floor
and twisting herself into funny positions. I came around the corner
to see what she was doing and I asked her 'What are you doing?'
She pointed to the TV and said 'eh eh.' 

                             Mike
Newsgroups: misc.kids
Subject: Re: Here a study, there a study....
From: swk004@marshall.wvnet.edu
Date: 22 Dec 92 11:27:38 -0500
Organization: Marshall University

Hey!  I am not entirely against studies.  But tell me, which study do 
I adopt.  My son is 7.  In the short 8 years since I conceived, the
studies have widely varied on a number of issues that were germane 
to Jeremy's health and well-being.

Well-meaning medical advice changed based on which pediatrician I 
saw in the group.  The advice diverged even more when I consulted
specialists.  

This time last year, I was meeting with psychologists, pediatricians,
educators, ear-nose-throat specialists and other experts.  My son 
was diagnosed as ADD, ADHD, emotionally immature, learning disabled,
exceptionally intelligent, allergic, stressed, etc., etc., etc., etc.

And all of these were based on a study somewhere.  

My son's major complaint was he didn't like school.  So after weighing
the advice, looking at options, discussing it on the net, I switched
him to another school.  

My attention deficit, emotionally immature, learning disabled but
exceptionally intelligent and allergic stressed out child came 
home an attentive, mature, learning and happy to be so child who 
occasionally needs some Dimetap after his first couple of days in 
a new school.

A study is only as good as the methodology used.  Studies are very
expensive to conduct.  The researcher's bias must be considered.
The bias of the entity providing the money must be considered.
The bias of the person reporting the study must be considered.

There is a statistic somewhere that will support just about any
statement.  

Connie
From: chrisw@chopin.FtCollins.NCR.com (Chris Whitley)
Newsgroups: misc.kids
Subject: Sesame Street and Sassiness
Date: 22 Dec 92 16:49:34 GMT
Reply-To: chrisw@chopin.FtCollins.NCR.com (Chris Whitley)
Distribution: world
Organization: NCR Microelectronics, Ft. Collins, CO

Well, my daughter (2 yo) loves Sesame Street.  I've never been
concerned about her watching it every day, as my philosophy is
to balance everything with something else.  (We read 1/2 hour
to an hour of books every day.  We listen to music.  We color.
We look at the moon.  We watch tv.)  About half the time, I 
watch tv with her, and we talk about what we see.  Sometimes I
lie on the couch and read a book, and she sits on top of me
and watches tv.  

However, I have wondered a little about Oscar the Grouch.  I mean,
this dude is mean.  One episode centered upon Oscar entering a 
grouch yelling contest.  He yelled alot for practice, and his
neighbors were pretty fed up.  "Please stop yelling, Oscar", they
asked him, not always that nicely.  Miranda and I talked about how his
yelling bothered people, and how, even though the people obviously
liked Oscar, they didn't want to be around him when he yelled. 
(This discussion fascinated her, and in fact seemed more instigated
by her.)  A couple weeks later, when Miranda is grouchy herself, I 
can ask her to "Please stop yelling." and she visibly considers that
it is not a nice thing and tries to stop, if she can.

I have more anecdotes of this kind, which I will not inflict upon
you.  Besides Miranda's obvious delight in Sesame Street, this is
a common type of "learning" I see going on when she watches TV
(best learned when I am there with her.)  _Of course_ we have the
same sorts of experiences when reading books, or simply when seeing
people interact at the grocery store.  We learn from many different
sources, and I like that.  I just try to be aware and keep things
balanced.

---------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Whitley            email: Chris.Whitley@FtCollinsCO.NCR.COM
NCR Microelectronics     Phone: (303) 223-5100 ext. 314
2001 Danfield Court        Fax: (303) 226-9556
Ft. Collins, CO  80525
From: mpaul@unlinfo.unl.edu (marxhausen paul)
Newsgroups: misc.kids
Subject: Home births and HMOs...
Date: 31 Dec 1992 03:42:46 GMT
Organization: University of Nebraska--Lincoln	
Distribution: global
NNTP-Posting-Host: unlinfo.unl.edu

Hmmm, I was just struck by a thought - the accusation is made during most
homebirth threads that hospitals/doctors favor hospital deliveries at least
partly out of a financial interest in them.  I'm curious what most health
maintenance organization's opinions are on this: in their relentless efforts
(around here, anyway) to minimize their costs, I would think they would
favor home births.  For those who are members of HMOs, what do your organ-
zations say regarding their coverage for home births?  (I don't know what
our HMO says about this.  I just know that at 8:40 pm when our daughter 
was being born a while back, the attending doctor commented that if the
baby where born before 9:00 pm Kim would have to go home the next day
[although the doctor can overrule that HMO rule if he deems it advisable].
Anne was born at 9:04...other than that, we've been happy with both the
HMO and the hospital.) 



--
paul marxhausen .... ....... ............. ............ ............ .......... 
 .. . .  . . . university of nebraska - lincoln .  . . .. . .  .. . . . . . . .
 .     .    .  .   .     .   .  .    .   .  .   .    .   .  grace .   .    .  . 
   .         .       .      .        .        .      .        .   happens .
Date: Wednesday, 30 December 1992 12:02:38 MST
X-Mailer: TMail version 1.15R
From: "D. C. Sessions" <dcs@witsend.tnet.com>
Organization: Nobody but me -- really
Subject: Re: Circumcision etc.
Newsgroups: misc.kids
Distribution: world

In <1hqba0INNds0@gap.caltech.edu>, anne@cco.caltech.edu (Anneliese Lilje)  wrote:
# >3.  The older a man gets the more painfull a circumcision is.  My sisters
# 
# Hmmmm.... How do you know this? Did someone compare the pain level
# of a newborn who was circumcised to the pain of say a 30 year old? 40
# year old. How do you know this?

  Well, an adult is in enough pain to need fairly strong medication for
  days to weeks (see what Jacob's boys did to even the score for Dina's
  rape!).  In contrast, an 8-day-old baby frequently zonks out
  immediately afterward without particualr encouragement.

  Or is this a case of "take it like a man" and "acting like a baby?"

--- D. C. Sessions                            Speaking for myself ---
--- Note new network address:                dcs@witsend.tnet.com ---
--- Author (and everything else!) of TMail  (DOS mail/news shell) ---
From: jjdti@usho77.hou281.chevron.com (J.D.Tilander)
Newsgroups: misc.kids
Subject: Re: Protecting children in Public Schools
Date: 31 Dec 92 16:51:40 GMT
Organization: Chevron

In article <dlhanson.19.725753805@nap.amoco.com> dlhanson@nap.amoco.com (David L. Hanson) writes:
>I saw this posted on USENET last week. Since my children are homeschooled,
>they are not subjected to these kinds of indoctrination and prying but for
>those whose children are incarcerated in the public socialist system, this
>information can help you to protect them.
>
>I posted this on alt.fan.rush-limbaugh last week where it was not particularly
>appreciated. Like I mentioned to my sister, when I told her about it, a
>parent may not agree with everything in this list but it is better to think
>about it ahead of time than after children are affected.
>
>===========================================================================
>
>                   THE RIGHTS OF PARENTS AND STUDENTS
>             REGARDING PUBLIC AND PRIVATE SCHOOL EDUCATION
>
>
[lots of stuff deleted]
>
>                      MODEL HATCH AMENDMENT LETTER
>
>     (Parents' names)________________________________________
>     (Address)_______________________________________________
>     (City, State, Zip)______________________________________
>
>          I am the parent of __________________, who attends
>     ____________ school.  Under U.S. legislation and court decision,
>     parents have the primary responsibility for their children's
>     education, and pupils have certain rights which the schools may
>     not deny.
>
>          Parents have the right to be assured that their children's
>     beliefs and moral values are not undermined by the schools.


This is extremely offensive to me...I don't choose to go into it but for
one question...shouldn't the sentence directly above read "parents have the
right to be assured that THEIR beliefs and moral values are not undermined
by the schools"?

That's what your concerned about, right?  YOUR values?  CHRISTIAN values?
Sorry, man, I don't consider this trash CHRISTIAN in the slightest.  
-- 
Janet Tilander
Chevron Exploration and Production Services Co.
San Ramon, CA
From: judyd@rosebud.CNA.TEK.COM (Judy E. Drake)
Newsgroups: misc.kids
Subject: Re: A few facts about circumcision
Date: 23 Dec 92 15:58:50 GMT
Reply-To: judyd@rosebud.CNA.TEK.COM
Distribution: world,public
Organization: Tektronix, Inc. - Redmond, OR

In article <1992Dec23.054756.24125@nmsu.edu>, sdoe@nmsu.edu (Stephen Doe) writes:
|> In article <BzL3Fv.Bwp@news.iastate.edu> polly@iastate.edu (Y. B. Normal) writes:
|> >AAARRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGG!!!!!!!
|> >
|> >I have heard enough about circumcision.   I have even quit reading this 
|> >group for a week and half because i was so tired of it and i start reading
|> >it again and the articles are still here!!!!!!!!  
|> 
|> Hear, hear!  I've learned more than I ever needed or wanted to know
|> about circumcision.  Let's start kill this thread, please.

Not only is this discussion still here, but this is probably the twentieth
or thirtieth time it's been argued in the last few years.  It's deja vu
all over again.

I have a proposal--we maintain FAQ (frequently asked question) files--
let's start some FARGQ files--frequently ARGUED questions.  Let's limit
these FARGQ's only to those issues that we KNOW are irreconcilable here
on misc.kids, i.e., circumcision, cloth vs. disposables, breast vs. bottle,
mommy wars, spanking, etc., etc.  

That way when one of these comes up (as we know they will over and over
again), the FARGQ file keeper can just hit the net with one big huge post 
that contains all the arguments. We can get it all over with in one post, 
which we can easily bypass using the 'n' key instead of having to fiddle 
with our kill files.  If someone thinks of some new angle to the argument 
(not very likely, but remotely possible), he or she can write it up and 
send it on to the FARGQ keeper for inclusion in the file.

Even better--we can standardize the subject headings to read, for example
"FARGQ: circumcision".  That way, we can all put these headings in our kill
files once and for all and we NEVER HAVE TO SEE THEM AGAIN!!!

Yeah, that's the ticket!

Judy Drake