HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: leonard@mimsy.umd.edu (Leonard Dickens)
Newsgroups: rec.games.netrek
Subject: Re: Impact of 40 second pops
Date: 25 Jan 93 21:34:18 GMT
Organization: Deep Thirteen, Gizmonics Institute

SpaceAce writes:
>Scout bombing on a 10 second clock means that a bomber has the chance to  
>bomb *every* army that pops...

True, but only if the pop is cooperative.  With a continuous pop
clock, there is a chance at any time for more pop; it may very well be
that you get a series of pops right after each other producing
essentially the same situation as the forty second clock.  It would be
rarer, though.


>On a 40 second clock, it  
>is not uncommon to have 2 or 3 planets pop at the same time, making the  
>scout destruction of all these armies very difficult.  

If we want to preserve armies in this fashion, why not extend the pop
clock to one minute?  Two minutes?  10 minutes?  Obviously, there is
no logical stopping point... you just have to agree on some number and
live with it.  Which is inelegant.  I think one reason people are
against long pop clocks is that they intuitively sense this problem.

And then there is the matter of getting a significant advantage from a
very simple auxiliary program.  Yuck.


>There is a problem with being a scout bomber now adays:  you must always  
>be scout bombing.  There is no room for anything else.  With a 40 second  
>pop clock, you have more flexiblity to do other things (drop, ogg, etc).   
>This makes the game much more interesting for these players who dedicate  
>their life to this.

Seems to me that with a continuous pop clock, any time you manage to
get the enemy flat is the time to scum or ogg... there is the same
mean time to next pop no matter what.  This seems to me to be MORE of
a challenge for the scout bomber, exactly because he or she cannot
predict the amount of time free.  Furthermore, if pop appears as a
scout goes to ogg someone, should the scout abort to go bomb?  Ogg
anyway?  One can totally avoid such dilemmas in the long pop clock
case by using a pop timer.

One final argument against pop timer based games; it is an anecdote
because I feel lazy.  After TWNN started using pop timers last season,
we scrimmaged SS.  I was playing base as a Rom, with Hyd agri.  With
the benefit of the timer, I noticed a tactic that one of their scouts
would use: he would cloak and move right up to Hyd just before pop
time, ready to bomb it almost instantly if it popped.  (In the 40 sec
timer, an agri with four+ armies has a 28% chance to pop, producing
from one to four additional armies.)  Does this strike anyone else as
abusive?

-Leonard

Newsgroups: rec.games.netrek
From: danny@cs.su.oz.au (Danny)
Subject: Re: From the CounCILboY:  Your news reps are... [drum roll]
Organization: Basser Dept of Computer Science, University of Sydney, Australia
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 01:13:24 GMT

In article <1993Jan25.203312.1811@coe.montana.edu> osyjm@cs.montana.edu (Jaye Mathisen) writes:
>
>Danny Yee (ICMP Redirect), and Doug Bellew (Vampyre).  
>
>Following is the candidate list, and the number of votes received.
>
>
>Danny Yee -- 12

Where were you all guys?  I was sure there were more than 12 netrek 
players in Australia...  But a big thank you to all my fans anyway! :)

Danny.
From: dbarnett@tamu.edu (David Barnett)
Newsgroups: rec.games.netrek
Subject: Re: Pop Timer
Date: 27 Jan 93 16:45:02
Organization: Texas A&M University
NNTP-Posting-Host: auvc5.tamu.edu
In-reply-to: ss72+@andrew.cmu.edu's message of 25 Jan 93 17:56:48 GMT

In article <QfN=O0K00VpNM3P1kp@andrew.cmu.edu> ss72+@andrew.cmu.edu (Sean Christopher Simmons) writes:

>   I think that an important point when declairing or not declairing the
>Pop timer illegle is that it is independant of the client.  It doesn't
>get info from the client, nor does it provide info to the client.

The pop timer that was posted here has buttons for synchronizing the
clock with observed pops.  It gets information (indirectly) from the
client via the user.  How is that any different from a program that
talks directly to the client for synchronization, or a client with a
built-in timer?

>  If I
>wanted to put a clock down next to my monitor, would this be illegle? 
>What if I modified the clock for 2/3 RPM?

How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?  There is always a large
degree of arbitrariness about the acceptability of "info-borg" features.

One of the most useful info-borgs that I've heard about provides a vastly
increased bandwidth for message passing.  It's very simple to operate,
but it only works with compatible info-borgs.  To use it, sit down at a
workstation and start your client.  Other players with the same info-borg
sit down at adjacent workstations and start their clients.  When you want
to give information, advice, or insults to your teammates, you turn your
head and say what's on your mind.  Unfortunately, this info-borg is not
available out here in the boondocks where netrek players are few and far
between.  :-\

--
David Barnett
dbarnett@tamu.edu
From: noah@cad.gatech.edu (Noah White)
Newsgroups: rec.games.netrek
Subject: BRONCO's absence
Date: 22 Jan 1993 03:22:27 -0500
Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology
Distribution: usa
NNTP-Posting-Host: cae.cad.gatech.edu
Keywords: with drawl?


   Wondering what to do with bronco down this weekend? Come by and check
out the cool new bronco style server at miramar.cad.gatech.edu 2592!

  We are holding a CLUE GAME this tonight (FRIDAY 1/22/92) at 8pm. The
CLUEFULL are welcome. 

			-Noah


-- 
Noah White                                 Internet: noah@cad.gatech.edu
CAE/CAD Lab Staff & USENET Administrator
Georgia Institute of Technology
"Wheel in the sky keeps on turin. Oh I don't know where I'll be tomarrow."
From: tom@soda.berkeley.edu (Tom Holub)
Newsgroups: rec.games.netrek
Subject: Re: Pop Timer
Date: 27 Jan 93 05:11:12 GMT
Organization: U.C. Berkeley, CS Undergraduate Association
NNTP-Posting-Host: soda.berkeley.edu

In article <AfNTzJG00VpHF8J1Ir@andrew.cmu.edu> Sean Christopher Simmons <ss72+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
)Excerpts from netnews.rec.games.netrek: 26-Jan-93 Re: Pop Timer Roger
)Books@fsunuc.physi (1263)
)
)>  I haven't played with it but I think I could write a program
)> that would show where I needed to shoot for torps to hit by being a "pass 
)> through" to the real client.
)
)
)	I certainly don't think that this is independant.  Is there anyone who
)thinks that it is?

How do you mean?  It would be possible to write an X application that
looks at the icons along with their last position, figures out their
speed and direction, and draws a dot on the screen in the appropriate
place.  None of this would touch the client or the information from
the server; it would be totally independent.  Should it be allowed?
I sure think not.
 -Tom
From: sl7sg@cc.usu.edu
Newsgroups: rec.games.netrek
Subject: Re: MS speeds around the globe, my ardurous labors come to fruitation
Date: 21 Jan 93 22:30:31 MDT
Organization: Utah State University

In article <AfLntKy00VpQ8Aklco@andrew.cmu.edu>, Sean Christopher Simmons <ss72+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
> 	You should try orthanc.cs.su.oz.au, just for kicks.
> 	BTW, is there any chance that othanc could be added to the metasever?
> 
> -h orthanc.cs.su.oz.au -p 5701
> 
> ZZnew guy

		avg = 1381
		8% packet loss




			-Lynx

Yes, I am reeeeeeal bored
Organization: Junior, Math/Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: rec.games.netrek
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 20:30:11 -0500 
From: "Joseph E. Beck" <jb8n+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: glossary
	<srt.727488414@aerospace.aero.org>
	<YfLoD7200VpQ8AknEH@andrew.cmu.edu>


Sean Christopher Simmons <ss72+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
> Excerpts from netnews.rec.games.netrek: 20-Jan-93 Re: glossary Scott
> Turner@aero.org (940)
> 
> > > > If there's a step beyond, I haven't reached it yet :-).
> > 
>         When your opponents try to cripple you instead of killing you because
> it's so much more efficeint.
I was playing on doorstop and realized I was going to die so I tried
to leave the enemy at warp 1 and acidentally killed him.  I sent him a
message expressing my annoyance at having failed to cripple him and he
replied "But crippling doesn't give you any DI."

Sigh...

	joe
	Lamb, Leg Of
From: echeverr@scf.usc.edu (5150)
Newsgroups: rec.games.netrek
Subject: Re: cloaking after gettin tractored (strange)
Date: 24 Jan 1993 20:35:28 -0800
Organization: Will Ogg For Food
NNTP-Posting-Host: aludra.usc.edu

In article <63660@mimsy.umd.edu> sjsmith@cs.umd.edu (Stephen Joseph Smith) writes:
>paulsen@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Brian Paulsen) writes:
)>Geez, another secret of the game given away.  This is what truly seperates
)>the clued from the unclued.  At one time, people didn't know that you could
)>phaser on the galactic - now, many know (but few actually do - we planet
)>scums love those that don't!)
>In truth, I'm more effective looking at the galactic and phasering on the
>local.  Anyone else?

Me too.  The galactic is on too large a scale to be really effective IMO.

>Has anyone else noticed that *everybody* of *any* clue seems to know phaser
>locking these days?  This was not the case when I was beginning to play, or
>so I think.

Don't even remind me... you just can't rush cloaked past halfclues anymore...

)>Anyways, the truth is that whenever you orbit a planet or dock on to a base,
)>*all* T/P's that were on you are turned off.
>Wrong, wrong, wrong.
>Whenever you orbit a planet, NOTHING HAPPENS.  Tractors and pressors remain
>ON.  Whenever you dock on a base, the base's tractor goes off, but I doubt
>opponents' or even teammates' tractors go off.  (I am unable to test this,
>because all the servers I have commanders on have actual games going.  But
>I believe this is true.)

Uh, no.  When you orbit a planet, YOUR tractors and pressors turn off, and
i think your teammates' too.  I don't think the enemy's does.

5150
From: mccoy@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Jim McCoy)
Newsgroups: rec.games.netrek
Subject: Re: Abusive Misuse of Tedd Hadley's Server
Date: 21 Jan 1993 23:55:13 GMT
Organization: The University of Texas - Austin
Distribution: world
Reply-To: mccoy@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Jim McCoy)
NNTP-Posting-Host: tramp.cc.utexas.edu
Originator: mccoy@tramp.cc.utexas.edu


In article <1993Jan21.225836.20554@cs.uoregon.edu>, keith@majestix.cs.uoregon.edu (Keith Steiger) writes:
> In article <1jn7ttINN5v2@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> mccoy@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Jim McCoy) writes:
> >But can a base dock with a base docked with a base....
> >Now _that_ would be something to see (visions of 2 teams of 8 bases linked
> >together, sharing thier fuel and repair with each other come to mind...)
> 
> I can just see what would happen if one of those bases died in the middle
> of a heated battle, though.  "Chain reaction" seems insufficient to describe
> that kind of devastation.

Which would be just as interesting to see.... (they would look like a
string of firecrackers :)

Then again, I am not really sure how you could really kill a super-base
like this if it was set up correctly.  Form a sort of open-square (3-per
side) and if anyone gets hurt they just float into the center and attach
to someone inside the square.  The hurt base is invulnerable and gets to
repair from another base.  What I think would really be fun to see is all
the T/P work something like this could do (send an ogger at warp 8 backwards
against it's will perhaps? maybe suck a scout in at warp 30? :).  Whatever
happens, it would be the kind of thing to use a flight recorder on, just
for the laughs... 

Now that I think about it, it might be a bit more difficult to get
base<->base docking work right because of the problems with maneuvering.
Normally when a ship docks it undocks when it moves under it's own power or
when it is pressored away.  How would two bases docked together move?  If
they could move while still docked how would they undock (this could
probably be done via docking perms, but are there any other alternatives?)
The truly masochistic could add a little vector routine to the server to
total up all the different movement commands by bases docked together to
get a "unit" movement.

Regardless, it would be fun to watch.

jim
-- 
Jim McCoy                |  PGP 2.0 Key md5 hash:
mccoy@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu |  61323c49024cb089337c78a05aafe8c6
j-mccoy@nwu.edu          |  finger mccoy@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu for public key


Newsgroups: rec.games.netrek
From: JGR@ECLX.PSU.EDU (Jim Reisman)
Subject: A weekend substitute for McBronco McAddicts
Organization: Penn State Engineering Computer Lab
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 93 23:32:48 GMT
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.24


                            Yo!

   Since Bronco will down for the weekend, might I suggest you try
playing THE netrek variant: NetHockey!

   For those unfamiliar with NetHockey, I suggest you try logon to
hockey.ksu.edu, and read the MOTD.  You will find that NetHockey is
the caviar of netrek variants, preferred by discriminating palates 
over standard McNetrek.

   NetHockey is also a methadone to the netrek addict. It is a scientific 
fact that ONE hour of NetHockey is equal in entertainment satisfaction to 
TWO hours of bronco netrek or FOUR hours of bigmax netrek. It's true! Just
ask rjones, an expert at quitting netrek.

   NetHockey has been known to Cure Sickness, Prevent Hair Loss, and
Increase ..err.. Stamina. So, like, stop by da rink.

   Pickup games can often be found running Sunday and Thursday Nights
on hockey.ksu.edu -p 2592.

Jim Reisman
ID: Ikko-ikki
"Hey! What the hell are you doing with iggy??"
Newsgroups: rec.games.netrek
From: colles@vccnw06.its.rpi.edu (Grey Knight (Shawn Collenburg))
Subject: Re: Indying AGRIs
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 19:34:48 GMT

tom@soda.berkeley.edu (Tom Holub) writes:

>In article <0fLMNpe00VpH0WtlEx@andrew.cmu.edu> "Joseph E. Beck" <jb8n+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
>)
>)Under what conditions is it ok to neutralize an enemy AGRI?  Sometimes
>)(front line planets, or when ahead by a lot), Always, or Never?

>Always.  Sure, the enemy needs only drop one army to take it back,
>but the crucial point is that your team also needs only drop one
>army to take it over; if you don't have enough capacity to take
>the planet in one trip, for sure, neutralize it.  Also, most teams
>will concentrate far too much on retaking an AGRI, leaving your
>teammates some space to acheive other goals.
> -Mojo

Also, the other team has to get that army to the planet. If your team
is in on taking the agri (which I hope they are), they should be able
to stop someone from just scumming it back.

Grey Knight
Commander Grey Knight joining the game as R3 (colles@lib103.its.rp)
R3->ROM Who's ogging and who's bombing?
From: tom@soda.berkeley.edu (Tom Holub)
Newsgroups: rec.games.netrek
Subject: Re: Shorter games?
Date: 27 Jan 93 05:36:59 GMT
Organization: U.C. Berkeley, CS Undergraduate Association
NNTP-Posting-Host: soda.berkeley.edu

In article <EfNUYzO00VpH18J3RZ@andrew.cmu.edu> Sean Christopher Simmons <ss72+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
)	Tom seems too have two reasons for wanting to shorten the game:
)1) Two hours if too long for one game of netrek.  Keeping up that level
)of intensity for that long is too tiring.
)2) Shorter games increase the chance of an upset.
)
)	As for the second point, it seems to undermine the whole point of
)having even games.  Isn't the better team SUPPOSED to win?  Isn't the
)team that wins the championship supposed to be the best team?

Yes, but the beautiful thing about sports (and note that I've always
looked at the INL as a sporting league rather than a gaming club)
is that the better team *doesn't* always win.  This keeps things
interesting for the better team (since they can't be assured of
their win), the poorer team (since they always have a chance of winning),
and any spectators (which is not really relevant to netrek, but still).
If I wanted to see the 'correct' winner every time, I'd watch the
World Chess Championships.  Yawn.

)	 I don't know about others, but I like netrek.  I really enjoy INL
)games, because they're the highest quality netrek.  Naturally, I want my
)best games to last for a while.  If you see the game as some kind of a
)chore that must be done, then perhaps you should re-think why you're
)playing in the INL at all.

I don't have to see it as a 'chore that must be done' to think that
the game needs to be shorter.  After all, you agree that 3 hours was
too long; did you see it as a chore?
 -Tom
Newsgroups: rec.games.netrek
From: osyjm@cs.montana.edu (Jaye Mathisen)
Subject: Re: Last planet choice
Organization: CS
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 20:22:30 GMT

In article <63569@mimsy.umd.edu> leonard@mimsy.umd.edu (Leonard Dickens) writes:
>Lynx writes:
>>... an LPS is primarily choosen because
>>of its tactical location, not its resources (it is much easier to defend a
>>planet, in a corner, behind your home planet, than one out in the open).  The
>>only time that you would opt against this situation, is if all but the corner
>>planet was an agri planet...
>
>I disagree.  Resources are most important for the last planet;

I think it's too dynamic to make any hard and fast rules about.

If my side has a base, especially somebody like Wreck, or even Jim [:)],
I would take repair over fuel, for something like veg or den.  Hell, as
a LPS defender/base defender, I expect to die oodles of times, I can dock
to get fuel if I managed to live, or make the dash from ear after I come
back.

If we don't have a base, then I guess resources edge out position by just
a tad.  

But most importantly, it depends on the clue. If the defending team is clueless
it will just take longer, regardless.  
-- 
 Jaye Mathisen, COE Systems Manager                (406) 994-4780
 410 Roberts Hall,Dept. of Computer Science
 Montana State University,Bozeman MT 59717	osyjm@cs.montana.edu
From: jwh@cs.bham.ac.uk (James Hawtin)
Newsgroups: rec.games.netrek
Subject: European INL team
Date: 24 Jan 93 17:21:08 GMT
Reply-To: jwh@cs.bham.ac.uk
Organization: School of Computer Science, The University of Birmingham, UK

Ok there seem a lot of intest in this idea so far I have the following interested, 
anyone else wanna join please mail me. We may not win but we can always use lag as an excuse :-) (wait till they play here .........) we need about 6 more to get a
reasonable team.

jwh@cs.bham.ac.uk				wibble
js138@cus.cam.ac.uk				Yoda
sn@plato.chemietechnik.uni-dortmund.de		Courier
steffen@fb3-s7.math.TU-Berlin.DE		??????
bert@mc.bio.uva.nl				booz, KILLERBEE!!!
lab@mtek.chalmers.se				lab

				James
Commodore wibble
From: jimmyhua@aludra.usc.edu (Jimmy Huang)
Newsgroups: rec.games.netrek
Subject: Re: DD's need improvement!
Date: 23 Jan 1993 23:50:15 -0800
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: aludra.usc.edu

paulsen@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Brian Paulsen) writes:

>Bigdog had this for a while, I think.  The fact is that people don't get
>hit by DD torps.  A good CA should get hit by 1 torp at most from any
>CA - DD battle.  I think what would even up a DD would be 90 point phasers
>rather than 85 point phasers.

huh? I eat DD torps like hell all the time.  They run, I chase. I eat torps. 
They get phasored to death. I have tons of damage, and limp away...

(If I don't time my Tractor/Pressor right, i Die). 

Jimmy
From: sfd@soda.berkeley.edu (Scott Drellishak)
Newsgroups: rec.games.netrek
Subject: Re: DD's need improvement!, No, Everything needs improvement!
Date: 28 Jan 1993 22:14:32 GMT
Organization: Metaphor Computer Systems
NNTP-Posting-Host: soda.berkeley.edu

In article <1k6uee$d37@agate.berkeley.edu> fadden@hkn.Berkeley.EDU (Andy McFadden) writes:
)Finally, NETREK IS NOT REALITY.  IT IS OKAY FOR THINGS TO BE ILLOGICAL.
                                  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Ontological error in line 53:  it is not okay for things to be illogical.

By the way, I'd just like to thanks everyone for continuing my
original silly thread.  But, here's a real idea.  The torp damage for
(SC, DD, CA, BB) goes (25, 30, 40, 40).  I sense a flaw -- CA torp
damage should be 35.
-- 
/--------------------------------------------------------------------------\
| Scott Drellishak   sfd@neuromancer.metaphor.com                          |
|                "Spumco ... the Danes call it quality."                   |
\--------------------------------------------------------------------------/
Organization: Sophomore, Math/Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: rec.games.netrek
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 13:55:21 -0500 
From: Greg K Chung <gc2n+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: A new change suggestion! (I kept it short)

v119matc@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Claus Schwinge) writes:
> Something no-one has suggested since UDP came along is changing the speeds
> of all things in the game.  UDP makes it possible to have much more 
> continuity in the game, with less gaps and freezing. So, why not speed up 
> the whole game.  Raise the speed of all things that move (torps, ships,
> plasma's) by 10-25%.  Since people are getting better information now 
> that UDP is along, I think it is time to try speeding up the pace of the
> game.  Keep fuel costs of moving proportionally the same (ie scout moved
> at warp 8 w/out losing fuel, now moves at warp 8*1.25=warp 10 without losing
> fuel, and has a new maxwarp of 12*1.25 = warp 15), and turn rates also raised
> proportionally.  Maybe phasor&trac/press ranges should also be raised.
> 
> And, no, I don't have a server of my own to try it out on.
> 
> -Halfdane
> 
> P.S. Has this been tried before anywhere?


There are a couple problems with this, as I'm sure other people have
already posted.  First of all, the logistics are all funny.  Raising
the speed that a torp moves by 25% means that in one second, that torp
moves 25% farther.  The farther it moves results in larger jumps
from where you last see a torp and to where it next goes.  Ergo, torps
will jump around and you will have a very un-fluid motion with just
about anything.  To maintain fluid motion, you have to increase
updates, and that is limited by the network.

Also, the game will be far too fast for most players.  A warp 16 SC or
AS torp will then be going warp 20.  That's pretty damn hard to
dodge...

Commander Stiletto

Newsgroups: rec.games.netrek
From: jch+@cs.cmu.edu (Jonathan Hardwick)
Subject: Re: server instalation
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 17:17:41 GMT

owen@jupiter.cse.utoledo.edu writes
>   Just attempting a stealth installation of Netrek on a local server
> here... is it at all possible if you DON'T have root priviledges?
>    
>   Keeps shrieking about not being able to connect to port, etc...  weird.

Don't do it.  Any competent sysadmin will notice the server and
traffic within 24 hours of your starting it up.  He/she will then be
pissed at you for trying to do it stealthily.  You'll get your
knuckles rapped, the server will go away, and netrek will get a bad
rep at your site. 

Better by far to be completely open with the sysadmin about it.  If
you're trying to do it "stealthily" because your site has a no-games
policy, question the no-games policy rather than blatantly breaking
it.  If you get your sysadmin hooked on netrek *first*, of course,
they'll probably set up a server for you...

All bets are off for incompetent sysadmins.  Your milage may vary.

Jonathan H., jch@cs.cmu.edu                    Keeper Of The Netrek Archives
Access for the masses : anonymous FTP to gs69.sp.cs.cmu.edu (128.2.206.167).
If you have AFS, look in /afs/cs.cmu.edu/user/jch/netrek.  If you have WAIS,
use the netrek-ftp database, available on port 6000 of gourd.srv.cs.cmu.edu.