From: 89ms1@eng.cam.ac.uk (M. Sablic)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: Croatian postage stamps
Date: 13 Apr 92 15:53:50 GMT
Organization: cam.eng

benedejc@husc10.harvard.edu (Andrej Benedejcic) writes:

>In article <1992Apr12.162705.2432@eng.cam.ac.uk> 89ms1@eng.cam.ac.uk (M. Sablic) writes:
>>
>>Why would anyone want to flame Andrej ?

>Perhaps to check out his/her flamethrower ?

There is a slight possibility some people might find some other things
offensive...

>>I find it hard to figure out, are you just pushing this ultra-nationalist
>>image as a joke to amuse us or are you for real ?

>Actually, I am trying to figure this out myself!  Ha, ha, ha!

I think you might be  over doing it... At some points it becomes
too sick to laugh.

>>According to Andrej, in the near future I will have the privilidge to
>>become the citizen of his beloved Slovenia,         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 

>You know, Mladene, apart from spelling, I really like your choice of words!

OK, privilege. ( not the first time I made the same mistake )
Ever heard of sarcasm ?

>>unless he plans to kick
>>out all non-Slovenes out of Rijeka (empty towns are not much use). 

>No, Mladene, don't worry!  You'll be able to stay.  As you said:  "Empty towns
>are not much of use."  Oh, yes, one more thing!  It's Reka, not Rijeka!

How gracious of you to let me stay , thank you!

It is Fiume in Italian, Rijeka in Standard Croatian and Reka in local
Croatian (not the way the Serbs would pronounce Reka but with more
emphasis on RE ) It has ALL three names and I do not care what you
call it. Unlike you, I have nothing against Italians unless they try to
invade us.

>>It seems history never changes much.  

>As Karl Marx pointed out:  "History always repeats itself--the second time
>as a comedy!"

>>In the last two centuries that
>>patch of land was under the control of French, British, Hungarians,
>                                                ^^^^^^^  ^^^^^^^^^^
>>Croatians (Ban Jelacic), Austrians, Italians, Germans, Yugoslavs,
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^                       ^^^^^^^  
>>Croatians... 

>Well, I am really at a loss what to say to you.  If you're trying to emulate
>the guy who has just invented the new and improved language of Croatia, then
>you are definitely on the right track.  If, however, you're trying to pass
>yourself off as a history expert, then, I'm sorry to say, you failed miserably.
>First of all, when were the British in Istra?  During the 19th century it
>was a part of the Austrian Empire.  Even under Austria-Hungary, Istra,
>together with Dalmatia, fell under the jurisdiction of the Austrian emperor.
>And what was that stuff about Ban Jelacic?  Are you trying to say that because
>he fought the Hungarians, Istra automatically belongs to Croatia?  I mean,
>using the same logic, I could argue that because the Slovenian regiments
>put down the uprising of the Italian "carbonieri" in 1840's, Bosnia belongs
>to Slovenia!  Also, it is hard to see how could Istra belong to the Germans,
>since the only thing they did was to retreat across it in 1944 and build
>a couple of bunkers. 

Right. I was referring mostly to the history of Rijeka, some of it applies to
Istria but as you said was under Austrian control.

French - Napoleon's troops 1809-1813.

British - They kicked out the French out of Rijeka, or something like that.
This is according to Encyclopedia Britannica, look it up under Rijeka. The
fact is that there were English troops in RI sometime in the period 1813-1814.

Hungarians - Rijeka was under their jurisdiction in A-H, in the period I am
talking about (19th-20th century) up to 1809, then 1814-1848 and 1870-1917 or
so.

Croatians (Ban Jelacic) - His troops came to Rijeka during the events of
1848 (Could be 1847) and 'transferred' it to the Zagreb's jurisdiction from
that of Budapest. It was under Zagreb's control until 1870 when it went back
to Hungarians.

Austrians - well they were on top of everybody in A-H after 1848 (for a while).

Italians - WWI-1943.

Germans - 1943-45.

Yugoslavs - 1945-91

Croatians - 1991-....

Satisfied ?

Istria belongs to Croatia because that is the way the border is drawn
of an internationally recognised state plus the fact that if given a
choice majority of people in Istria would vote to live in Croatia. If
you want that proven by a war, you can have it, but don't you think it
is a waste of money ?

>>and finally according to Andrej, the future comes in
>>shape of Slovene tricolour. Welcome to the list Andrej!

>Yep!  That's right!  We'll come, we'll see, and we'll win!  Then we'll give
>you the status of an autonomous region within the borders of the Republic
>of Slovenia and we'll all live together happily ever after!  In the meantime
>Croatia will join Bosnia (or whatever remains of it) to create the new
>state of Bosatia, and Tudjman we'll let himself be circumcosed. . . .

Please, note that all the people who came also left.

>>Regards,
>>
>>Mladen

>Regards,

>Andrej

Don't you think it would be far more cheaper if you stick to free
trade, movement of people and capital agreements to expand the SL
influence in the region instead of a war ? I would be defending Rijeka
so I kind of prefer that. Especially since Slovenes are hard to find
in Croatian Istria except as tourists (yes, there are some but very
few as a percentage of population). Rijeka in Croatia is a major port,
Rijeka in Greater Slovenia would be a poor relation of Kopar. I
suspect that if it came under Slovenian control it would be neglected
ie. the communications (motorway) towards Hungary which it badly needs
would not be built so it would be killed off as a port.  I also prefer
being in Croatia because in SL I might find one day that Slovenian is
the official language. I think it is enough for people in RI to cope
with Standard Croatian, local dialects, Italian plus with English and
German tourists. So when it comes to your offer...dream on.  (not that
I have anything against Slovenes, always welcome as tourists.  Each
summer, when I go to Silba I get the impression that the island has
already been annexed ;-)


Pozdrav,

Mladen

P.S. Andrej is a nice name. I have a nephew called Andrej. My sister
called him that because Croatian Andrija sounds a bit stupid, it does
not roll of the tongue. No, he is not a Slovene, don't get your hopes
up.  If I did not have a soft spot for that name I would suggest that
Slovenes have a lack of imagination when naming children.  I know more
Andrejs than I can count.
--
Mladen Sablic, Pembroke College, Cambridge University, UK.
e_mail: ms145@phx.cam.ac.uk (JANET: ms145@uk.ac.cam.phx)
        89ms1@eng.cam.ac.uk (JANET: 89ms1@uk.ac.cam.eng) (Rx only)
--
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia