From: brian@lpl.arizona.edu (Brian Ceccarelli 602/621-9615)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: 12/20/92   God's Promise in Titus 1: 2
Date: 21 Dec 92 22:43:21 GMT
Organization: Lunar & Planetary Laboratory, Tucson AZ.


Robert Weiss (psyrobtw@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu) writes:

> 
>      In hope of eternal life,
>      which God, that cannot lie,
>      promised before the world began;
> 
>      Titus 1:2

Charles Board (ingrcfb@bnr.ca) writes:

> 2 Thess. 2:11 : For this cause God shall send them strong delusion,
>     that threy should believe a lie.
>
> Ezek. 14:9  And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken
>     a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet.
>
> Jer. 4:10 Ah, Lord God! surely thou hast greatly deceived this people..
>
> Jer. 15:18 Wilt thou be altogether unto me as a liar....?
>
> 1 Kings 22:23  Nowtherefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying
>     spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken
>     evil concerning thee..
>
> ..... among many.


Robert and Charles have pointed out what appears off hand to be major
contradiction in the Bible.  I have come across this one before, months 
ago, and I think it was Charles Board who indirectly gave me some insight
on the matter.  As a Christian, I will try to explain the Christian
perspective.  I do not know all the answers, but I will try to give it a 
shot.


Points
------

1.  God does not lie.   (Titus 1:2)

2.  God, however, has agents that lie and/or incite men to lie.  
    In 1 Kings 22:23, the Lord, Himself, did not lie to Ahab's prophets.
    One of his heavenly host did.  It was the agent, not the Lord,
    who lied to Ahab's prophets.   For another example of a spirit
    being allowed to mess around with humanity, see Job 1.

3.  Ezekiel 14:9.  Charles did not quote the entire verse.
    It goes like this:

    "And if the prophet is enticed to utter a prophecy, I the
     Lord have enticed that prophet, and I will stretch out my
     hand against him and destroy him from among my people Israel."

     It is an application of 1 Kings 22:23.   The prophet 
     has already been telling lies.  So the Lord entices
     him to tell a really big one that will come back
     in his face.  The agent of the lie, if like 1 Kings 22,
     is a lying spirit, and not the Lord.  

4.  The Jer 15:18 verse is a rhetorical question, not a 
    statement of fact.  

5.  The Jer 4:10 is out of context.  Jeremiah has been
    taking what false prophets have said as if God
    had said them.  The words the false prophets have
    spoken were lies. Jeremiah does not yet know this, so he 
    thinks God has deceived the people.  Hence, the verse.  
    See Jer 14:13, 23:17.

6.  The 2 Thess 2:11 verse is an example of point 2.  God is 
    using sin to punish sin.  The people who decide to follow
    God's great delusion are already following the lie. 
    The delusion only supports the lie.  What is the lie? 
    Some man has set himself up to be God, a man of
    lawlessness.  People are believing that.   See 2 Thess 2:4.  
    What are the characteristics of those people who are
    following that lie?  

    2 Thess 2:10 & 11

    "They perish because they refused to love the truth
     and so be saved."  and  "do not believe the truth but
     delight in wickedness".

    And the result is 2 Thess 2:11.  "For this reason God
    sends them a powerful delusion . . . so that all will
    be condemned."  Recognize this?  It is the same reason by which 
    Ahab and his men destroyed themselves in 1 Kings 22.

7.  Also, I believed Charles pointed a long while ago that the
    Hebrews had no concept of Satan until after the Babylonian exile.  
    Pre-exilic references in the O.T., e.g.,  the Lord hardening Pharoah's 
    heart and the sending of disquieting spirits to Saul are 
    attributed to the actions of the Lord.   However, after
    the Babylonian exile, at least one of these actions was 
    changed and attributed to Satan.

    Written before the Babylonian exile:

    2 Samuel 24:1       Again the anger of the Lord burned against
        Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, "Go and
        take a census of Israel and Judah.

    Written after the exile:

    1 Chronicles 21:1   Satan rose up against Israel and incited David
        to take a census of Israel.

    Hence the direct agent causing Pharoah's heart to harden, or Saul's
    disquieting spirit, may not be the Lord, but instead an agent,
    whether evil or good.


    Since the Lord is Boss over all creation, both good and evil, one can say 
that everything is directly or indirectly attributed to the Lord.  I don't
think anyone can argue that.  One can say "the Lord sent this or the Lord
did that."

However, what I feel is really going on is more like, the Lord allowed an angel
to do this, the Lord allowed Satan to do that.  Satan has been given a certain
amount of authority over the earth.  That can be the topic of another
thread.  But regardless who is the cause of what, that is not the point
of the Bible verses that Charles brought up.  In all the verses brought
up, I believe that the points are these:
 
1.  God holds each of us accountable for our own actions.  

2.  God uses a persons' own evil intentions to eradicate evil.
    God doesn't send a lying spirit or a powerful delusion to the
    righteous people.  He sends them to the unrighteous so that they
    will either repent or destroy themselves by their own evilness.

3.  God can work the evil of others into good.

And so goes the sermon for today! :)  Sorry if I dragged on or
came across like I know it all.  I don't know all.  I am learning
too. I appreciate any comments anyone has to make.  I can even
learn from e-flames even though I'm not particularly fond of
that method.  :)



Merry Christmas,


Brian Ceccarelli
----------------
brian@gamma1.lpl.arizona.edu