HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: dwelch@mpd.tandem.com (Dan Welch)
Newsgroups: soc.men
Subject: Re: The Women Who Served
Date: 9 Oct 92 15:38:45 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Tandem Computers (MPD) Austin, TX

In article <1992Oct8.101243.2606@mdcbbs.com> rivero@mdcbbs.com (Michael Rivero) writes:
>In article <BvrGIB.37o@mentor.cc.purdue.edu>, jewell@mace.cc.purdue.edu (Larry Jewell) writes:
>|>  The names of eight women, all military nurses, are on the Vietnam Veterans
>|> Memorial.
>  How many men's names are on the Memorial?  

I know you meant this to be rhetorical, Michael, but for any out there who
don't actually know, the answer is 58,148.

Daniel Welch
----
A curse on the judges, the coppers, and screws,
Who tortured the innocent, wrongly accused,
For the price of promotion, and justice to sell --
May the judged be their judges when they rot down in hell.
Newsgroups: soc.men,soc.women
From: sethb@fid.morgan.com (Seth Breidbart)
Subject: Re: CONDOMS! and AIDS
Organization: my opinions only
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 22:53:16 GMT

In article <6509@grus.cs.nps.navy.mil> shimeall@taurus.cs.nps.navy.mil (timothy shimeall) writes:
>In article <1992Oct5.032540.4753@cbnewsk.cb.att.com> noraa@cbnewsk.cb.att.com (aaron.l.hoffmeyer) writes:

> We know that condoms,
>used properly and unbroken, are about 85% effective at preventing
>pregnancy.  Given the female fertility cycle, this means that (worst
>case) condoms may block sperm transmission only about 60% of the time.

How do you calculate that?  The 10-15% "failure" rate of condoms means
that 10-15% of women who claim to use condoms as their only birth
control method will get pregnant within one year.  This covers
failures of all sorts, including condom breakage, improper use, and
lack of use.

>However, the latex used in condoms is also known to tend to have
>channels penetrating it that are 5-10 times the diameter of HIV (HIV is
>much smaller than sperm). Hmm, sounds nice and "safe" doesn't it...

Last time I checked, HIV virii were much larger than water molecules.
How come condom water balloons don't leak?

Seth		sethb@fid.morgan.com
Xref: sparky soc.men:17806 soc.women:17804 alt.feminism:2638
From: dpaxton@ut-emx.uucp (Debi Paxton)
Newsgroups: soc.men,soc.women,alt.feminism
Subject: Re: Re :Female "Wiring"
Date: 16 Oct 92 15:20:26 GMT
Article-I.D.: ut-emx.81769
Followup-To: soc.men
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin; Austin, Texas

In article <D1easB1w164w@cellar.org> revpk@cellar.org (Brian 'Rev P-K' Siano) writes:
>       It seems a bit silly to point this out, but I might as well-- yes, 
>many women find childbirth painful, perhaps some experience orgasm during it, 
>and a hand or a fist being inserted is a very different sensation than having 
>one's guts pushing a watermelon-sized load out of one's abdomen. I'd caution 
>anyone reading this from any sweeping pronouncements on pain and pleasure.




Brian, take it from me -- don't use the watermelon analogy.
I swear it's accurate but I was told last year on this very
medium, by a man who was quite sure of his opinions, 
that at the most it could only feel like an orange, never
a watermelon.

Orgasm during childbirth??  Now that's an interesting concept!


-- 
"Never imitate consciously, but do not worry about being an imitator;
take pains instead to admire what is good."

Debi Paxton                             		dpaxton@emx.utexas.edu
Newsgroups: soc.men,soc.women,alt.activism.d
From: bhv@areaplg2.corp.mot.com (Bronis Vidugiris)
Subject: Re: LABOR: STUDY: 1 in 3 Semiconductor Workers Suffer Miscarriages
Organization: Motorola, CCR&D, CORP, Schaumburg, IL
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 22:28:01 GMT

In article <1992Oct15.013153.9647@mont.cs.missouri.edu> harelb@math.cornell.edu (misc.activism.progressive co-moderator) writes:
)Has just been posted to misc.activism.progressive
)
)    "For over 10 years, we have been trying to warn people to replace
)    glycol ethers because of their reproductive hazards," said Amanda
)    Hawes director of the Santa Clara Center for Occupational Safety
)    and Health (SC-COSH).  "But the electronics industry has been
)    stalling until there is a body count.  It is particularly
)    upsetting, because most of the people at risk are women, and most
)    of the decision makers are men."

I don't recall the *exact* figure, but the figure for spontaneous
miscarriages for everyone was pretty close to the 1 in 3 figure.
It was not really that uncomon.  The 1 in 3 figure doesn't mean anything
by itself without the corresponding figure for those who were not exposed
to chemicals.  I'd check into the figures a lot more closely before hitting
the panic button on this issue.  (My memory isn't clear enough to be positive
that there is no problem, but I have very strong doubts that the data
above indicates a problem).

(BTW - This was from our company mandated OSHA required training course.  A
bit of a joke, as the instructor asked what acids we were exposed to, and I
muttered under my breath 'acetic'.  That Orange Juice in the moringings,
don't you know :-).  Also there was not that much info on male reproductive
hazards in the course.  The biggest concern in our area was to be sure to
wash your hands after any soldering because of lead, which was known to
cause problems for both men and women.)
From: rdh@Veritas.COM (Robert Hartman)
Newsgroups: soc.men
Subject: Re: individual men vs. "patriarchy" and individual women vs. "feminism"
Date: 15 Oct 92 22:23:07 GMT
Organization: VERITAS Software

In article <1992Oct14.225400.26500@m.cs.uiuc.edu> carroll@cs.uiuc.edu (Alan M. Carroll) writes:
>In article <1992Oct13.210729.16966@Veritas.COM>, rdh@Veritas.COM (Robert Hartman) writes:
>>>[Mara, presumably] They are perfectly clear about needing to separate any particular
>>>man-- or even "men" in general-- from "patriarchy," but they
>>>continue to hold women, and feminist women in particular,
>>>responsible in what I think are unsuitable ways.
>
>When I say I don't want to be confused with the "Patriarchy", I mean
>"don't hold me responsible for what _other people_ think". When a
>woman object to something but won't explain why, she is saying "don't
>hold me responsible for what _I_ think".

Perhaps this wasn't put forth as clearly as it could have been.  Mara
doesn't want an individual woman to be held responsible either for what
other women think, as in the generic "feminism" so often demonized in
this newsgroup, or to be held responsible for the reaction of any given
company when a complaint of sexual harrassment (in particular) is raised.

>I'm curious as to how the HR person is supposed to be able to explain
>the problem unless one assumes that the HR person and the complaintant
>have effectively identical reactions.

As an intermediary, the HR person doesn't have to have the same
reaction.  The HR person needs to _understand_ the position of the
complainant, and _understand_ the position of the person being asked to
make the change.  I'm sure we've all been in situations where a third
party with some perspective on things has been able to straighten out a
misunderstanding.  In the case of pin-ups, and other minor problems
that are sometimes construed as sexual harrassment, I suspect that
there's often more misunderstanding and miscommunication than direct
intent to offend, degrade, or threaten--on either side.

What I find significant and refreshing is that what we have here is a
feminist woman who agrees that the man involved should be treated like
a human being.

Think about it.

-r
From: pepke@ds1.scri.fsu.edu (Eric Pepke)
Newsgroups: soc.men
Subject: Re: CONDOMS! and AIDS
Date: 9 Oct 92 22:18:00 GMT
Reply-To: pepke@ds1.scri.fsu.edu (Eric Pepke)
Organization: Florida State University, but I don't speak for them

In article <26758@castle.ed.ac.uk> cam@castle.ed.ac.uk (Chris Malcolm) writes:
>
>I think there's an awful lot of silly scare stories circulating about
>condoms here. Just how often do condoms break, Eric?

Back when I was using condoms (and a diaphragm; I'm not stupid) for birth
control, I kept track of breakage rates.  The measurement I found most useful
was not frequency of breakage, but rather the duration of use before half
the condoms broke, which I call the half-life of the condom.  Over a period
of two years I got a large number of samples for two brands: Trojan and Sheik,
both lubricated.  All tests involved coitus alone.  None involved any 
oil-based lubricant.  Some (about 30%) involved a water based lubricant (such
as K-Y) or a contraceptive foam or gel (such as Ortho-Gynol).  All condoms 
tested were well within their expiration date and had been stored properly 
in an air-conditioned apartment.  All had receptacle ends (which I doubt has 
any effect anyway).  Many different batches were used and showed uniform
performance.

Trojans had roughly a 20-minute half-life.  Sheiks had roughly a 25-minute 
half life.  

I have since used one Lifestyles Extra-Strength which did not break, and one
Mentor Magnum, which broke after 3 minutes.

I view this as an unacceptable level of performance in a consumer item, let
alone in a supposedly life-saving device.  I view this direct personal 
experience as rather more than a "silly scare story."

Numbers on their effectiveness in the general population are difficult to
come by.  There are the studies of couples, but of course they do not control
for whether the condom is actually used or not.  

There are mechanical studies done by condom companies.  I saw a television 
program on this a while back.  The program was serious.  They had a silly-
looking reciprocating engine which was supposed to simulate intercourse.  
They ran the machine for 90 seconds, on the ground that that is supposed to 
be the average duration of coitus.  The scientist said, with a completely
striaight face, that the test might be inadequate becuase some people had
sex for four, maybe five minutes.

I view this test, as well as air- or water-inflation tests, as inadequate.

-EMP

P.S. I commend you on refraining from the obvious attack.
Newsgroups: soc.men
From: jsw@cray.com (Jon S. Wood)
Subject: Re: What a Problem!!!
Reply-To: jsw@cray.com
Organization: Cray Research, Inc.
Date: 9 Oct 92 12:11:20 CDT


In article <1992Oct5.141858.1602@panix.com> eck@panix.com (Mark Eckenwiler) writes:
>In <1992Oct5.050245.6494@cbnewsk.cb.att.com>, noraa@cbnewsk.cb.att.com sez:
>>In article <1992Oct4.173315.28357@panix.com> eck@panix.com (Mark Eckenwiler) writes:

Would the people in the court please rise:


The "jury" (made up of us regular folks) has reached a conclusion.
 

 "psst,  I believe Aaron just kicked your ass, so to speak"

The "jury" (made up of us regular folks) has reached a conclusion. 



Newsgroups: soc.men
From: bhv@areaplg2.corp.mot.com (Bronis Vidugiris)
Subject: Re: Need Help
Organization: Motorola, CCR&D, CORP, Schaumburg, IL
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1992 17:20:56 GMT

In article <1992Oct10.192626.139240@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu> jj07@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (JAMES JACKSON) writes:
)Hello,
)
)    I need some help from those of you who have been married for  a while. I'm
)    new at the marriage game and I'm getting off to a bad start. All of my

Well, I haven't been married, but I have some advice:

#1)  Don't have children if things are this unsettled.  Use your own
contraception to make really sure that you don't have children.  The reason
for this is that besides being unfair to the child, divorce laws really suck
big-time for men with kids.

#2)  Get some professional help (i.e. a marriage counselor) - you probably
won't solve all your marital problems here on the net.

Newsgroups: soc.men,alt.child-support
From: beaver@castor.cs.psu.edu (Don Beaver)
Subject: Re: Recent Bill Clinton quote regarding child support
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 18:56:47 GMT

In article <1992Oct6.200028.4590@desire.wright.edu> sbishop@desire.wright.edu writes:
>In article <1992Oct6.011133.14186@Warren.MENTORG.COM>, tal@Warren.MENTORG.COM (Tom Limoncelli) writes:
>> In article <1992Oct05.032425.611087@zeus.calpoly.edu> dgross@zeus.calpoly.edu (Dave Gross) writes:
>>>"I know how awful it is for a kid to grow up knowing that somewhere out there,
>>>there is some father who abandoned her or him.  I just -- it infuriates me.
>>>And so, do I think we ought to have a Draconian system of national child
>>>support enforcement?  I sure do.  I really believe that.  I do."
>>>
>>>     -- Bill Clinton, in an interview with Christopher Matthews of
>>>        the San Francisco Examiner.  Interview published in Image
>>>        magazine, a supplement of the Sunday Examiner, 10/4/92.
>> 
>> This is a bit out of context.
>> 
>> He was talking about "deadbeat dads".  He believes in going after them
>> to make them pay WHAT THEY HAVE BE REQUIRED TO PAY.  He isn't talking
>> about making them pay more, he IS talking about enforcing the rules
>> that exist.
>> 
>> Less than 30% of all alimony is ever actually paid.
>> 
>> When you are talking about helping children, this is something
>> that really needs to be done.
>> 
>
>Yep, my co-worker Leona's ex is now SEVEN years in arrears on his child
>support.  He makes twice as much as she does.  And she has custody of the
>two kids he willingly participated in adopting.

Did he willingly give up custody, too?  If so, was he pressured into 
doing so?  Was he unfairly treated by a sexist system?

Does the support award provide basic needs, or does it reach into
his pockets beyond what a child basically needs?

Is she, like some other mothers, SEVEN years "in arrears" on her
provision of "visitation" (or even simple cooperation in custody matters)?

Don
-- 
beaver@cs.psu.edu                       Opinions from the PC-challenged
From: christin@cae.wisc.edu (Christine Haas)
Newsgroups: soc.men
Subject: FOR MY BROTHER
Date: 16 Oct 92 01:20:57 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: U of Wisconsin-Madison College of Engineering

Hi,

I am posting this for my brother who is looking for a female
with which to correspond by U.S. mail (he does not have computer
access.)

He is 29 years old, brown hair, brown eyes, 6' tall, and being
his little sister, I have no clue how much he weighs.  

He wants to write letters to someone on the basis of a friendship.

If you are interested, please e-mail me and I will tell you more
and give you his address.

Thanks.

Chris.  :)
From: rdh@Veritas.COM (Robert Hartman)
Newsgroups: soc.men
Subject: individual men vs. "patriarchy" and individual women vs. "feminism"
Date: 13 Oct 92 21:07:29 GMT
Organization: VERITAS Software

In an e-mail conversation about how to handle sexual harrassment, Mara
Chibnik raised a concern about the responsibilities of individual women
being confused with those of the company, and by extension, the
feminist movement.  We agreed that her concern might be relevant to
soc.men, and so I have her permission to qoute from our conversation.

The context for her statements below is Mara's view that a woman who is
genuinely upset over something (say, a pin-up) has enough to deal with
with just expressing herself on that.  Women still get slammed and
black-listed for raising such issues, and have all they can do just to
protect themselves when trying to assert their rights.  My point was
that when a man makes an innocent mistake, he shouldn't be crucified
for it; he is owed an explanation and some support in adjusting to the
new expectations being placed on him.

Her view on this is that the man is indeed entitled to that, but that
he should not expect to get either the explanations or the emotional
support from the particular woman raising the issue.  First, since the
woman is already upset, she might not be able to give it.  Second,
that's not typically in her job description.  His HR representative
should be the one to provide that for him.

[Mara]
>     >>>>What I want is some affirmation from all concerned that it is the
>     >>>>_company's_ responsibility to deal with this stuff.  That is, I want
>     >>>>"you" (for some reasonable value of "you") to focus on the company's
>     >>>>failure in those cases where a female employee [complains].
>     >>>>It is not _her_ fault if personnel deals badly with them.

[Robert]
>    >>>I see.  Your not wanting the woman in question to be confused with the
>    >>>company seems analogous to my not wanting to be confused with the
>    >>>patriarchy.

[Mara]
>   >>Yes, now that you mention it, I guess it is.  In fact, this may
>   >>clarify some of the resentment that I have with the soc.men crowd.
>   >>They are perfectly clear about needing to separate any particular
>   >>man-- or even "men" in general-- from "patriarchy," but they
>   >>continue to hold women, and feminist women in particular,
>   >>responsible in what I think are unsuitable ways.

I think that she may have a valid point here.  What do you think?  

[Note: Mara doesn't subscribe to soc.men any more, and I'll be changing
jobs soon.  So neither of us will be particularly available to respond
to comments for a couple of weeks.  But if you'll post replies here, I'll
try to summarize them when I get back on-line, and put some sort of response
together that both she and I feel good about.]

-r
From: schultz@unixg.ubc.ca (Stewart Schultz)
Newsgroups: soc.men
Subject: Re: Mattel on women
Date: 9 Oct 1992 18:37:57 GMT
Organization: University of British Columbia, Vancouver, B.C., Canada
NNTP-Posting-Host: unixg.ubc.ca

In article <1992Oct9.171713.4552@cbfsb.cb.att.com>
colten@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (marc.colten) writes:
>
>All this debate on what Barbie has to say about Math class.  STill
>one question remains unanswered - what does Ken have to say about
>all this?

My, you look lovely tonight.
May I take your jacket?
Please, let me pay for that!
Is that guy bothering you?
Let's take the Benz!
I'll change a diaper anytime you ask, honey!
No problem, I like to do dishes!
I love you for your mind!
Of course you're not fat!
Boy, I think Jerry Hall is great !!!

-S. Schultz


Newsgroups: soc.men,soc.women
From: boyc5031@mach1.wlu.ca (jim boyce)
Subject: The Beauty Myth
Summary: Sources and Opinions Sought
Organization: Wilfrid Laurier University
Distribution: na
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 22:50:21 GMT


I am a masters student in the Religion and Culture Department at
Wilfrid Laurier University (Waterloo, Ontario) and am doing an
analysis of The Beauty Myth by Naomi Wolf. I will be examing her
empirical evidence as well her personal observations and would
appreciate some help in finding sources. At this point, I have
gathered about twenty book reviews from magazines and journals,
most of them being one to two pages in length. Does anyone know
of a more intensive study of this book?
   As well, I would appreciate any personal opinions you might
have on the book.

sincerely, j.boyce
Newsgroups: soc.men
From: bhv@areaplg2.corp.mot.com (Bronis Vidugiris)
Subject: Re: Article:  Female prisoners up 560%
Organization: Motorola, CCR&D, CORP, Schaumburg, IL
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 16:46:22 GMT

In article <1992Oct7.224314.494@cbnewsk.cb.att.com> noraa@cbnewsk.cb.att.com (aaron.l.hoffmeyer) writes:

)If the point here is prison reform and how sentencing drug offenders,
)people who commit non-violent crimes, etc. to prison does nothing to
)correct the problem, but rather costs all taxpayers dearly, then it
)should be gender neutral in approach.  But lobbying for lighter
)sentences for women because they are women is total crap.

Yep.

Newsgroups: soc.men
From: cep@taligent.com (Christophe Pettus)
Subject: Re: Catharine MacKinnon, Playboy and feminist propaganda (Was: Value of...)
Organization: Taligent, a little subsidiary of two really big companies.
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 00:41:02 GMT

In article <BvHJvK.Fx@unix.amherst.edu> twpierce@unix.amherst.edu (Tim Pierce) writes:
>I wondered this when I discovered that MacKinnon agrees with Susie
>Bright on a number of issues of womens' sexuality.

I'm certain she does.  This does not make her wrong on a great many other
matters.
--
-- Christophe

"He presented it with a length of string, and then passed on to the
Statue of Corrupted Endeavor, there to await the arrival of autumn."
Xref: sparky soc.men:17818 soc.women:17815 soc.couples:3946
From: ccsmh@gdr.bath.ac.uk (Mark Harding)
Newsgroups: soc.men,soc.women,soc.couples
Subject: [Question] How many of you let your partner ...
Date: 16 Oct 92 09:09:08 GMT
Organization: Bath University Computing Services, UK

A situation has just cropped up in my relationship and I was looking for
some feedback.

Q. How many of you are happy to let your partner go out alone with a previous
   partner? 

In my own situation the previous partner is someone who split with my girlfriend
on mutual terms because of distance. He works about the country and has been in
touch with my girlfriend asking to see her when he stays in this area. 

My own initial reaction was No. Then I thought about it and decided that I
couldn't object - I trust Julie; It's not my place to tell her who she can see;
It would cause bad feeling if I said 'You cannot see him'. So I said I didn't
mind but that I was concerned about his motives. Should I suggest the three of
us go out? Am I wrong to not want my girlfriend to be in an intimate situation
with another man, especially a past boyfriend?

They met recently during a work reunion meal and went out together afterwards.
I was a bit upset about this but didn't say anything.

Cheers, Mark.
-- 
+------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
|>  Mark Harding, Most excellent & triumphant programmer. NOT!  0225 826057   <|
+------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Newsgroups: soc.men,soc.women
From: beaver@castor.cs.psu.edu (Don Beaver)
Subject: Re: CONDOMS! and AIDS
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1992 17:37:02 GMT

In article <1992Oct9.235247.10998@fid.morgan.com> sethb@fid.morgan.com (Seth Breidbart) writes:
>In article <Bvu6qD.743@cs.psu.edu> beaver@castor.cs.psu.edu
>(Don Beaver) writes:
>>In article <1992Oct8.225316.18307@fid.morgan.com> sethb@fid.morgan.com (Seth Breidbart) writes:
>>>In article <6509@grus.cs.nps.navy.mil> shimeall@taurus.cs.nps.navy.mil (timothy shimeall) writes:
>>
>>>>However, the latex used in condoms is also known to tend to have
>>>>channels penetrating it that are 5-10 times the diameter of HIV (HIV is
>>>>much smaller than sperm). Hmm, sounds nice and "safe" doesn't it...
>>>
>>>Last time I checked, HIV virii were much larger than water molecules.
>>>How come condom water balloons don't leak?
>>
>>You probably are aware that air-filled balloons leak pretty quickly.
>
>How quickly do air-filled condom balloons leak?  And how much of that
>is through the knot, rather than through the surface?

A very good question.  I would *hypothesize* that the knot may not
not relevant, based on observing that Mylar balloons stay inflated
much longer than cheap balloons, despite having the same knot.
(Of course, this may also be due to the differences in elasticity.)

Here's an experiment:

Make a condom water balloon.  Then cut off the receptacle end of 
a second condom and make a condom water balloon with two knots.
Then put both in a filled bathtub.

See how long it takes the double-knotted condom to deflate, 
and subtract the time it took the single-knotted one to deflate.
This ought to be the knot-leakage rate, and you can then 
calculate the membrane-leakage rate.

But we should apply for an NIH grant first...   :-)

Don
-- 
beaver@cs.psu.edu                       Opinions from the PC-challenged
Newsgroups: soc.men,alt.feminism,soc.women