HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com (Ailsa N.T. Murphy)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Reconciling BDSM and Pagan Beliefs
Date: Mon, 09 Nov 92 11:10:37 EDT
Reply-To: ailanth!ailsa@wang.com (Ailsa N.T. Murphy)
Organization: Ailanthus Project

ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe) writes:

> altheimm@nextnet.csus.edu (Murray Altheim) writes:
>
> >How many of those who take a dominant role (either in play or in a re
> >situation) learn to like it, and come to understand that in many or m
> >situations, taking a dominant role (and possibly a violent one) gives
> >the same thrill regardless of the acquiescence of the submissive.
>
> When I play, I am usually Dom (though I very much enjoy being Dommed,
> someone is sufficiently clear in their role to focus me into the Sub h
> The Dom role is *nothing* like power-tripping--I know, I've done enoug
> tripping in my life. :-(  I was trying to explain it to someone recent
> found myself saying that the Dom has all the control and the Sub has a
> power.  It would not be remotely similar for me if the other party was
> fully consenting.  Then it would feel like power-tripping, and that is
> near the rush that comes when the circle is well cast and the power is
> or when someone and I are completely focussed on each other with one o
> taking complete responsibility for both of us.  After all, I am a surv

trimmed bran's post cos i want to answer just this part.

being the "dominant" partner CAN be the sort of power trip that murray
associates with it, but it does not have to be, and in general, i
think, it does not.  when i am on top, i am giving the person on bottom
exactly what s/he wants, in the way s/he wants it.  the emotion passing
through my mind is love, awe, and intense protectiveness.  all the
colors in the world are brighter, and nothing exists except ourselves.
it's an incredible feeling, and yes, i COULD get hooked on it *grin*

but i'm not hurting anyone.  when the bottom no longer wnats something,
i stop.  any decent top is VERY good at reading emotions and facial
expressions so to always know what is exactly the perfect thing to do
at an given moment.  it takes a lot of skill...

                                        -ailsa

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
                    ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com
                                                        ________
I don't care what consequence it brings,        Silence \      / Action
I have been a fool for lesser things.              =     \    /    =
                                                 Death    \  /    Life
                                                           \/
From: imcc@cs.strath.ac.uk (Iain McCord)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Yhe church and Galielo
Date: 11 Nov 92 19:51:23 GMT
Organization: Comp. Sci. Dept., Strathclyde Univ., Glasgow, Scotland.

In article <1dolv0INN6hc@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> jmm25@po.CWRU.Edu (Jessica M. Mcgeary) writes:
>infallibilty thing, as far as I can see, is just the pope's way of saying 
>"This is REALLY one of the rules, and if you don't like it then you can't 
>be a Catholic any more." While that was what happened to poor old Galileo, 
>more or less, it wasn't made a Really Official Cross-My-Heart-And-Hope-To- 
What happened to Galileo was a tad more than excomunication.  Being tried
for heresy would seem to indicate that the official church line was that
the earth was indeed the centre of the solar system.  Of course if Galileo
had been offered excomunion, and taken it, he'd have been an apostate.
>Die rule via infallible pronouncement, and therefore can be reversed.


-- 

		~~~~~/\~~~~~
Iain McCord	~~~~/()\~~~~	Wed Nov 11 19:51:19 WET 1992
		~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: marty@world.std.com (Marty M HaleEvans)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Pets ( was Re: raising children)
Date: 11 Nov 92 17:38:48 GMT
Organization: Cicely Public Access UNIX, Cicely, AK

>Radzy writes:

>>How do you feel about more exotic pets?  Rabbits can be good pets --
>>I've heard of people who have them litter-box trained, even.

Hi, I have one, and he's a sweetheart. He's completely litter-trained for 
urine, and 90% trained for feces (but his feces are small, neat, and completely
dry and odorless -- kind of like vacuuming up Cocoa Puffs :-> ), and he only
leaves those within about a 2 foot radius of his litter box. It's a territorial
marker thing, and has decreased since he was neutered.

In any case, I got him because I wanted a house pet and am allergic to cats.
(Also, one of my best friends is allergic to dogs, so I couldn't get on if I
wanted him to visit.) Rabbits have the same pluses cats do: quiet, clean, full
of personality and independent. Well, that varies from individual to
individual; some are very affectionate and others are more standoffish. Mine 
was raised with cats, so he's pretty catlike. He will come over and sit still
for petting, though. He's very good with strangers and children, has never 
bitten anyone, and is amazingly cute to watch while he's doing *anything*.

This is getting long; if you'd like to know more, let me know here
or privately, or check rec.pets. Oh, and as I mentioned before, there's a
definite long-standing connection between Welsh (I think) pagans and rabbits.
I read a little about this in _Wheel of the Year_.

>Actually, we DID have a rabbit once, but it was an ornery one--we got it
>at one of those dime-a-dozen pet stores, Doctor X.  It may have been
>abused;  most of the pets we had gotten there acted that way.  Makes me

Yeah, a lot has to do with their raising environment. Like any young creature,
they're prone to trauma.

>But back to the rabbit...it didn't housetrain too well, and it was
>pretty hostile, so that didn't work out too well with us.  It probably
>could have worked, but we'd have to go into it with much more
>forethought...

Sorry it turned out so poorly for you. :-< Lots of people do have houserabbits,
though, and their numbers are growing. They make very good pets for urban and
other apartment dwellers, like ferrets. And, in some strange way, they add a
touch of wildness to your home. Don't let the bad experience discourage you or
anybody from trying again -- a friendship with a bunny, like with a cat, is a 
very rewarding experience.

Marty


=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
"Seems like there ought to be a way we could look each other in the eye
To see we're all in this together, and put all thoughts of victory aside.
Seems like there ought to be a way we could turn this fear into trust;
No matter what you say, there has to be a way --
Every living thing is counting on us."      

Marty Hale-Evans                                 M   @   *   O   %   8   U
89 Mass. Ave., Ste. 199, Boston, MA 02115       \|/ \|/ \|/ \|/ \|/ \|/ \|/
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: markbr%radian@natinst.com (markbr)
Subject: Re: DAMN THIS LIE!!!!
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 18:48:21 GMT
Organization: n.o.y.b

In article <1992Nov7.074213.26854@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com> billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson) writes:
>ksm@abb-sc.abb-sc.com (Ashley) writes:
>
>: 	We can only hope Clinton represents a change for the better. 
>
>Fat chance. The Democratic party has historically been the greatest
>force in increasing government control over the population. However,
>these days, it seems that the Republicans are just about as bad.
>
Yup. Right. The Dems *LOVE* increasing government control over the people.
That's why the pro-Bill of Rights Supreme Court judges tend to be nominated
by Dems, and those nominated by GOPs are called traitors (or are you too
young to remember the impeachment billboards for the chief justice appointed
by Eisenhower, (the one in the 60's)?). The GOP "right-to-life" amendment.
The GOP defeat of the ERA. Yup. Absolutely.

>Talk about lousy choices - too bad the third party candidates in this
>country do not have a chance. Our new president was elected on a
>plurality, not with a majority of the votes.
>
>Bill

Neither was Reagan. He had (I just read) 43.5% to Carter's 42.5%.
Sorry. Bill. the GOP is agin' "GOV'T INTERVENTION" when THEY'RE not the
ones doing the intervening.

	mark
From: mkkuhner@phylo.genetics.washington.edu (Mary K. Kuhner)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Women and Men Witches
Date: 11 Nov 92 20:38:46 GMT
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle

Female supremacy, in my opinion, hurts women.  It denies us the joys 
of full partnership with men in the Craft; it gets in the way of our 
love affairs; it prevents equal sharing of responsibility and reward.
I find it ironic that a man is pushing this dubious 'priviledge' at
women, but I don't want it no matter where it comes from.

If you want to oppose power-over, you have to do more than reinstating
it with a different group on top.

Since the previous occupant of my house was active in the Men's
Spirituality movement, I get a lot of mailings from them.  Many men
feel that they've been badly hurt by their 'priviledged' position--
denied closeness to their fathers, expression of their weaknesses and
doubts, pushed into competitiveness and violence.  Why on earth would I,
wish this kind of thing on my daughters?  (Or my sons, for that matter!)

Mary Kuhner mkkuhner@genetics.washington.edu
Organization: Junior, Art, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Date: Wed,  4 Nov 1992 20:08:17 -0500 
From: "Sherrianne M. Johnson" <sj1s+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: greetings

HI all...I had introduced myself earlier, but it was on a separate
thread that someone had posted to about 5 different bboards and I hadn't
noticed...*ack*  Looks like lots of people have suddenly gotten to know
me.  *sigh*  (I wonder how many responses I'll get from alt.sex--bleah!)
 I really hate embarrassing stuff like that, especially after being on
the net for 2+ years...

I am a relatively new pagan who has read this bboard for many months
now...I'll just have to start posting, I guess, and being opinionated. 
:)  I'm from Pittsburgh, at Carnegie Mellon University.

Anyway, the question I had for alt.paganers is this:  There's lots of
stuff posted about cats here, and their mystic qualities.  However, much
as I love them, I'm horribly allergic, and can't even TOUCH them!  So,
are there any other animal-loving pagans out there in the same
predicament?  I suppose that all I can hope for is a parrot or bird who
likes rituals...  :)

Nice to finally introduce myself to you all...hope to post in the future...

blessings,

sher
sj1s@andrew.cmu.edu

Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: radzy@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU (T. O. Radzykewycz)
Subject: Re: Women and Men Witches
Organization: International Computer Science Institute, Berkeley, CA, U.S.A.
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1992 18:00:06 GMT

> kumagic@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu (Stephen R. Figgins) writes:
>> I have never met a man who was not.  But I have really only met men
>> from the dominant eastern and western cultures of the world, perhaps
>> there are a few obscure cultures out there where this is not the case,
>> but I have no first hand knowledge of them.

radzy@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU (T. O. Radzykewycz) writes:
> I suppose I agree with him to this extent: all men
> have some scummy traits, and I don't exclude myself.  I *DISAGREE*
> with him because he doesn't see that all women also have some scummy
> traits.

kumagic@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu (Stephen R. Figgins) writes:
> I never said I could not see the good things in men.  I do.
> I never said women lacked scummy traits.  I have been careful not to
> say very much about women, other than I am a female supremicist.

OK.  Here's a synopsis:

(All) men have scummy traits.
(All) men have good traits.
(All) women have scummy traits.
(All) women have good traits.

Do you agree?
If you do, then why are you a female supremicist?
Why do you feel that changing from one extreme (current patriarchy)
to the other (matriarchy) will improve things?

Non-patriarchical, Non-matriarchical Bear Blessings!

		-- radzy

------------------------------------------------------------
					|  An it harm none,
	T. O. Radzykewycz	     	|  do as ye will.
	The Incredible Radical Cabbage	|
					|  "Just pray for a
	radzy@cogsci.berkeley.edu       |  tough hide and a
	        			|  tender heart."
	        			|    -- Ruth Graham
------------------------------------------------------------
Tribal Mother was old, and lay ill on a bed of moss and
fern.   Her hair was long and grey.   Her face was very
wrinkled.    Tamura'nun-pa thought:   How beautiful you
are, Mother, so old and wise.
From: wolfe@wolves.uucp (G. Wolfe Woodbury)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: any atheist pagans out there?
Date: 8 Nov 92 04:25:41 GMT
Organization: Red Wolfe @ The Wolves Den
X-Md4-Signature: 4b9f0d9af31d87cb94708d8b1b27437c

In article <Bx838H.36C@cscns.com> rks@cscns.com (Island's Child) writes:
>wolfe@wolves.uucp (G. Wolfe Woodbury) writes:
>: In article <Bx21o5.CqE@cscns.com> rks@cscns.com (Island's Child) writes:
>: >It *has* to have some meaning. Otherwise, why do we bother? But then, how
>: >do you define beauty and truth? That is certainly subjective. Anyone who
>: >tries to tell me that there is meaning and purpose in the mundane lives
>: >of most people is simply full of crap. So -- is it a conscious choice we
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^  <note this sentence>

>: >make to "opt out" of the everyday concerns -- working for someone else,
>: >produce-and-consume, acquisition -- for something more meaningful? 
>: 
>: What makes *you* so special that your life has meaning and purpose, and
>: J. Random Human's doesn't?
>
>I am talking about *all* of us! I am talking about the rote way most
>of us live and the purpose and meaning that comes from that. 

	This is a far cry from your statement that mundane lives meanings
are "crap". 

>: You have some kind of worth that they don't?
>
>Did I say that? If I did, kindly quote the part that states that. 

	Note the part of your paragraph that I underscored with '^'s
above.  The implication is read from your statement that "Anyone who tries
to tell me that there is meaning and purpose in the mundane lives of
most people is full of crap."   I can't see much of any other way to
respond when you say that something is crap.

>: Excuse me while I get disgusted over this kind of attitude.
>
>Find out what I am talking about first. Then get as disgusted as you like
>but keep in mind that the first sign of intellectual integrity is collecting
>facts before drawing a conclusion. 
>
>So that you will understand it, my basic statement is that most of us
>live banal lives. Where is the meaning or purpose in that? 
>
>Is that clear enough? 

	Life, in and of itself, is plenty of meaning.  The pure miracle
of life, totally without regard for the mental state of the liver, has
its own purpose.

	You may not recognize the inherent worth of that life, or the
dignity that is due for the person *simply because they are alive*, but
I see in that life a spark of the divine, and I will honor that.

	You make your meaning clear, and it merely confirms what I was
reacting to in your attitude.
-- 
G. Wolfe Woodbury @ The Wolves Den, Durham NC	[This site is NOT affiliated  ]
wolfe@wolves.durham.nc.us			[with Duke University! Idiots!]
UUCP: ...!duke!wolves!wolfe      <Standard Disclaimers apply>
    Above All, we celebrate!  --Celebrate the Circle, Statement of Purpose.
From: lilleyc@cs.man.ac.uk (Chris Lilley)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Need information on herbs that will abort
Date: 6 Nov 92 20:48:49 GMT
Organization: Dept Computer Science, University of Manchester, U.K.

In article <1992Nov6.061629.15761@ncsu.edu> dachamb@eos.ncsu.edu (DUANE ALFORD CHAMBLEE) writes:

>Could someone please help me with a herbal remedy for my situation ? I am
>pregnant . I would like to abort by herbs. I would really appreciate some
>help. 

First, let me say that I sympathise with the problems an unwanted
pregnancy has and will cause you, and support your right to choose for
yourself what action to take.

Secondly (deep breath) would you really take some herbal concoction
suggested on the net by someone you never met?

I could suggest a number of herbs that would terminate your pregnancy.
Some of them, administered incorrectly or in the wrong dose, would
terminate you too. I assume you want to be in reasonable health after
this abortion?

You give us no data on your bodyweight, number of weeks, or even (this
is the _Inter_net remember, and not everyone is up on the intricacies
of US laws) whether abortion is legal in your state /country and under
what conditions.

I suggest that you talk it over with a reputable, qualified person. If
you seek a herbal abortion, go see a good herbalist. There is more to
it than simply knowing that herb xyz induces abortion.

Taking a herbal abortifactant is not the same as taking a herbal
headache remedy. Get some reliable information before you proceed.
Please.




--
Chris Lilley
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Technical Author, ITTI Computer Graphics and Visualisation Training Project
Computer Graphics Unit, Manchester Computing Centre, Manchester, UK
Internet:   lilley@cgu.mcc.ac.uk        Janet:   lilley@uk.ac.mcc.cgu
Voice:      +44 (0)61 275 6095          Fax:     +44 (0)61 275 6040
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Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: holzman@fnalno.fnal.gov (Daniel B. Holzman)
Subject: Re: Women and Men Witches
Organization: Fermi National Accelerator Lab
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 21:55:19 GMT
X-Posted-From: fnalno.fnal.gov
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In article <BxLwJA.Bxr@encore.com>, aaldrich@encore.com (Al Aldrich) writes:
> Just my $.02 .. If there IS such a thing as a `men's movement'
> which is questionable in my mind, 

There's all sorts of folks who refer to themselves as the "Men's Movement",
therefore there is one.  More accurately, there is one with many different
foci.  (Kinda sounds like feminism, huh.)

> my opinion is that Robert Bly is a detriment to it. 

I disagree.  I think that a number of people have reacted to misquotes and
quotes out of context of Bly's, and picked and chosen which parts of his work
and writings to critique.  Hands up everyone here who knew:

 - Bly was vocally against Desert Strom, just like he was Viet Nam
 - Bly was a supporter of Anita Hill (His exact words were "She's obviously
telling the truth")
 - Bly is a supporter of feminism

> I have been participating in what I like to think of
> as a men's movement in Men's Groups for several years now, and I have
> exactly the same opinion of Bly as what Janis expressed above. It is
> unfortunate that the few books that have been touted as `major works' in
> the men's movement `Iron John' and `Fire in the Belly' have a very limited
> perspective and in the tradition of male tendencies , try to give answers
> to questions that can only be answered for each individual man. 

They are major works because they are the first ones to be writing on the
topic.  While ultimately, every man must answer the questions they raise for
themself, the value of those books are in the raising of the questions, and in
the discussing of the answers.  Answering something *for* yourself doesn't mean
answering it *by* yourself.

> I agree
> that Bly seems to not like women very much and it appears to me that his
> `newage' men's groupies are falling subject to the `Backlash' that Susan
> Faludi speaks about so well.

I disagree completely.  While there may well be some men using Bly's work to
justify the backlash, I don't believe that Bly supports it or is the cause of
it.

Question: Have you read his book, or are you going on what people have said
about him?

-- 
Daniel B. Holzman                    | Eight Words the Witch's Rede Fufill:
HOLZMAN@FNAL.BITNET                  | An It Harm None, Do What You Will
HOLZMAN@FNALC.FNAL.GOV.INTERNET      |
                                     | All Acts of Love and Pleasure are
Love doesn't subtract,               | Her Rituals
   it multiplies    - Heinlein       |
                                     | Speak the Word.
Disclaimer:  Fermilab's far too large to have an opinion, let alone mine.
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: swaim@owlnet.rice.edu (Michael Parks Swaim)
Subject: Re: politices
Organization: Rice University
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 23:55:51 GMT

In article <BxB09v.1nu@news.iastate.edu> txdv1@isuvax.iastate.edu writes:
>The only powers that
>the president really has are the veto and he can send troops in before 
>informing congrese and if congrese decides to bring the troops back they 
>come back. The president is little more then a figure head.
  Tell that to Andrew Jackson.
  The president controls how laws are executed, and can make policy decisions
without Congress doing a thing about it. (Such as the abortion gag order,
and the Iran-Contra affair.) The president is hardly a figurehead.


-- 
Mike Swaim            | Canada will become the next world power
swaim@owlnet.rice.edu | and they will work to ENSLAVE all the nations
Disclamer: I lie      | of your planet. -Ricardo
Hastur Hastur Hastur Hastur Hastur Hastur Hastur Hasdtr yy['u [{}_+
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: holzman@fnalno.fnal.gov (Daniel B. Holzman)
Subject: Re: Women and Men Witches
Organization: Fermi National Accelerator Lab
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 22:01:01 GMT
X-Posted-From: fnalno.fnal.gov
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In article <1992Nov12.092118.44668@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu>, 
kumagic@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu (Stephen R. Figgins) writes:
> I don't think you have been really reading my posts.  I am not pushing
> any priviledge, nor am I suggesting any form of power-over with one
> group on the top.  

Given the history of the usage of the word "supremace" in reference to a group
(i.e. "White Supremacy"), how do you interpret the term "Female Supremacy"  to
not imply privilege, power-over, etc. for women?  Perhaps this term does not
describe what you are trying to get across?

> My point is not that men and women are separate,
> but rather that they are only perceived as separate, and taught to act
> separately.  

Where do you find this implied in the term "Female Supremacy"?

-- 
Daniel B. Holzman                    | Eight Words the Witch's Rede Fufill:
HOLZMAN@FNAL.BITNET                  | An It Harm None, Do What You Will
HOLZMAN@FNALC.FNAL.GOV.INTERNET      |
                                     | All Acts of Love and Pleasure are
Love doesn't subtract,               | Her Rituals
   it multiplies    - Heinlein       |
                                     | Speak the Word.
Disclaimer:  Fermilab's far too large to have an opinion, let alone mine.
Newsgroups: alt.pagan