From: davem@uvmark.uucp (Dave Meeks)
Subject: Re: "Like Tom Chambers" (WAS: Re: Laettner selfish?)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 93 14:11:31 GMT
Organization: VMARK Software, Inc.

In article <1k4vhdINNadf@sumax.seattleu.edu> davidy@sumax.seattleu.edu (Stimpson J. Cat) writes:
>
>	I often see the comment " like Tom Chambers" made a lot (not just this
>post, but in other posts and in the media as well.) It is often used to
>describe tall (6'10"+) players of a certain skin tone who can score points.
>Well, I suppose this is true to a point, but no more so that calling, say,
>Dale Ellis a "Michael Jordan type" (both are about the same size, play guard,
>and can score points.) 

Well, instead of trying to make this a racial thing, let's look at the 
similarities between the two players...
>
>
>	I have heard guys like Michael Smith, Alec Kessler, etc. called
>Tom Chambers types for this reason. But I say they are not, nor is Christian
>Laettner,nor is Tom Gugliotta. Why? Well, the main reason is athleticism.

I wouldn't call any of these, except Laettner, a Tom Chambers type player.
>Tom Chambers was one of the most athletic big forwards *ever*. He could run
>the floor with great speed, could handle the ball very well on the drive,
>and was an outstanding leaper. Nowadays, with Chambers aging and injured a lot,
>you don't see that, but back in his Seattle days this guy could dunk just about
>anything and everything, the onlything he rarely did was do the big putback
>slam, but that was because he was a lousy rebounder. He did all the fancy
>dunks you'd want, reverse jams, tomahawks, you name it. Even with Phoenix,
>in his later years, he was still pretty fine (I remember one highlight where
>he dunked over Mark Jackson, then with the Knicks, on a fast break, Chambers
>going clear over Jackson with Chambers' head at rim level. The point of all
>this dunk-mania being none of those guys listed above, and few guys in 
>general, have the athleticism to do any of this.

Chambers is, as you said, about 6'10 or so.  He is very athletic, can run
the floor very well, and could handle the ball very well.  Likewise, Christian
Laettner is about 6'10 or so, very athletic, runs the floor very well, and
handles the ball extremely well.  For all Tom's athleticism, he was only an
average rebounder and shot blocker, and Christian is a little better at this
skills.  Both are pretty good passers, pretty average defenders, and are
excellent outside shooters for big men.  Chambers is a career 30% 3pt shooter,
and has taken over 600 of them.  I see the same skills in Laettner.  Both
players preferred to run and the open court, and in the half-court game,
both preferred the wings.  I think Laettner is a little better inside than
Chambers.  Fancy dunks do not a player make!!!   If he truly dunked 
everything in site, his FG% would have been higher, but Chambers was more of
a perimeter player that was forced inside, much like Laettner.  Chambers has
only had 2 seasons were he shot over 50%, which for his position isn't so 
great.  But, this is because of where he played.  Yes, he dunked a lot of 
balls, but that was because he was a talented player.  Laettner isn't as
creative a dunker as Tom, but still dunks the ball a lot.
>
>	Also where it falls short- Tom Chambers, for most of his career,
>was a lousy outside shooter. Not until his last couple of seasons with
>Seattle, and then with the Suns, did his outside shot come around. Even now,
>I wouldn't say Chambers is a great outside shooter, solid, but not great.
>Chambers' offensive game is built around the drive, not the jump shot. Chambers
>was (is?) great at driving to the hoop. He scored tons of points, indeed
>most of his buckets in his early career, on drives to the hole. Most of those
>above people used their jump shots to score big.

Funny, I always thought he was a good outside shooter, especially in the
latter part of his career.  He did drive a lot, because of his ball-handling
and speed, but Laettner does a lot of the same.  
>
>	Finally, Chambers is a weak rebounder. The only good year rebounding
>I can remember for him was his 1st year for Phoenix. He was also a poor
>shotblocker, and this is weird because you'd think a guy 6'10" with great
>leaping ability could rebound and block shots, but he did not. I don't think
>rebounding and defense were very important to Tom. He would much rather
>run on the fast break, and outscore his man. Maybe Michael Smith was "like
>Tom Chambers" in these respects.

Part of this is because of the type of game Chambers played.  He liked the 
wing and did drive, but didn't play a lot inside.  When you don't play inside,
it is tough to get the rebounds.  Over his career, he has averaged about 7
rebounds a game, which isn't terrible, considering where he played, but not
great.  
>
>	My litmus test for a Tom-Chambers type is this: Can he play small
>forward? If he can play small forward *consistently* (i.e. start for a quality
>team at small forward) the guy might be a Chambers type. Chambers did this for
>Phoenix, but never could at Seattle because X-Man was the small forward (a
>strange combination- a "small" power forward in X-Man (he was a tough guy and
>the main rebounder for Seattle) and a "big" small forward (in Chambers, who
>would rather get out on the break and score points.) A mistake Phoenix repeated
>in trading for X-Man. To be honest, I don't see many Tom Chambers types out
>there at all. Maybe you call some of them *old* Tom Chambers types.....
>

No, Christian Laettner can play small forward, for the right teams.  His 
defense is pretty bad though, so it would be harder for him.  You talk about
your litmus test being playing small forward, yet CHambers really didn't do
this until Phoenix, which was the last 4 years or so.  This year, he sees more
time at Center, due to the lack of size in the Suns.  

I see more of a litmus test in HOW they play the game, and what skills they 
bring...

Tom Chambers brought a big guy who wasn't a great rebounder or shot blocker, 
not a real good defender, but a very good scorer.  He was best on the wings,
either shooting from outside or driving and loved the open floor.  He was 
a man without a position in that he was too big and slow to be an effective
small forward (as far as defending went), and didn't like to play inside
as a power forward.  He was athletic and fast, but didn't really have the
quickest feet in the world.  He was a border line AllStar level player during
his career, with a few outstanding years.  He also has shown an ability to 
shoot the 3 pointer as well.

Substitue Tom Chambers name with Christian Laettner, and it says the same 
thing about him.
-- 
David T. Meeks            || "New shadows tugging at the corner of his eye
VMark Software, Inc.      ||  Jostling for attention as the sunlight flares
uvmark!davem@merk.com     ||  Through a curtains tear, shuffling its beams
davem%uvmark@merk.com     ||  As if in nervous anticipation of another day"