HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Costume Bibliography Request
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1992 13:17:50

 JL> P.S.  The Baroness Takaiya gave me an excellent annotated bibliography  which was the first of a costumer's newsletter (it didn't have a Name at  the time) written in July 1983.  It was put together by the Ladies Caterina  da Monticello (from Monticello, IN) and Audelinde de Rheims (Linda Reames  Fox, Bloomington, IN).  If anyone has any information on either of these  two ladies or their newsletter, I would appreciate the learning.  Thank you.

 Lady Jillian, the newsletter is called SEAMS LIKE OLD TIMES.  If you have any  wishing to send in copy to them, they write to:

 Mistress Caterina da Monticello, OL ( Joyce Cottrell) 102 South Bluff Street,  Monticello, IN  47960    (219)583-7354

 subscriptions go to Mistress Audelindis de Rheims, OL, (Linda Reames Fox) at  P.O. Box 443, Bloomington, IN 47402 ... I'd call Mistress Caterina for  current subscription prices.  I no longer have Mrs. Audelindis's number  listed in my address book, as we have fallen out of friendship in the past  few years, but her newsletter is quite fine, and deserves great admiration  for the high levels of scholarship that she and Mrs. Caterina have maintained  there.

 Mistress Caterina lives only 40 miles or so from your Barony, but does not  travel much.  Last I heard, her mother, who is very old, was quite ill.  Of  course, Mrs. Cotrell may have passed away by this time, as I haven't had news  of her in many years.  Mistress Caterina works as a professional costumer.   She's also quite a fine heraldic artist.  You might see if you can tempt her  or Mistress Audelindis to come and speak at one of your meetings.

 May you be well, and further your knowledge of costuming!

 -- Vashti of the Flaming Tresses


  

 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: davel@news.arc.nasa.gov (Dave Liebreich)
Subject: SCA Archetypes
Keywords: minors releases
Organization: NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1992 20:47:57 GMT

Greetings unto the Rialto, and especially Tibor, from David Waxthorn!

In a previous article, Tibor writes:
>
>On a Bertramesque Tangent, have you noticed that sometimes strangers
>from the SCA feel more like old friends than some of your old
>friends?  As part of playing chauffeur for some of the Board
>Members last night, I drove them to a restaurant for dinner.  I
>was fascinated, on a meta-level, to note how comfortable they were
>to be around, how the conversation seemed to flow.  And this is
>only the latest instance in an ongoing series of friends newly
>met.
>
>	Tibor

From a Jungian perspective, there are only a few archetypal personalities
in the SCA (6? 7?), and everyone you meet is some combination of them.

It therefore follows directly that you will be more comfortable with 
SCA people, since you already know everything about all possible facets
of their personality.

Dave

=========================================================================
David Waxthorn                                  David Liebreich
Principality of the Mists                       NASA Ames Research Center
Laurel Kingdom of the West                      Moffett Field, CA

         "My liege-lord is 60% type B, 30% type D, and 10% type F"
                           doo dah doo dah
From: kgassner@cstp.umkc.edu
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: FRP negative stereotypes
Date: 15 Oct 92 21:42:15 GMT
Article-I.D.: cstp.1992Oct15.154215.1
Organization: UM - Kansas City, Computer Science

In article <1992Oct13.233210.23618@PA.dec.com>, haslock@rust.zso.dec.com (Nigel Haslock) writes:
> 1. Old abandoned castles are rarer than hens teeth.
>    Given the cost of stone work, the chances of someone abandoning one are
>    slim.

That's true. But consider that not all of the castles did as their builders
hoped they would. When I was looking at the history of a lot of smaller
German castles, I found some that had minor flaws in their static like half
the castle going down the hill it was built upon. You can imagine those 
castles to be abandoned.

> 3. The thought that the owners would abandon their treasures inside their
>    castle seems equally alien.

You're right - except you imagine a castle that's taken or that burns down.
The inhabitants may have hidden their treasures somewhere in the castle, and
would have had no chance of recovering them. Anyway, there doesn't have to
be any treasure in a place to make it interesting to adventurers, the rumor
of something like that is probably enough motivation.

> 6. AD&D players who enjoy magic free campaigns are non-existant, in my
>    experience.

Well, I know some players who did enjoy campaigns without magic. And
by the way, what's wrong with a little bit of magic? (Not the spectacular
fireball and make-things-flie stuff, of course) I know some people that will
try to convince you that magic _is_ real, nowadays, if you ask them, and the
people in medieval times believed in magic for sure.

I think FRP can go along with the SCA pretty well if it is adapted a little.
Impersonating your persona _is_ a form of role playing, you just don't want
to overdo the fantasy part.

		Ekkehard von Wartstein
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: donna@envy.kwantlen.bc.ca (Donna Hrynkiw)
Subject: Multi-Multi-Dukes
Organization: The Internet
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 23:43:00 GMT

Multiple-time (3 or more) rulers of An Tir (the Principality and the Kingdom).

Edward Zifran of Gendy (Prince 4 times)
Eirik Thorinsson (King 3 times)
Manfred Kriegstreiber (Prince twice, King twice)
Steingrim Wulfharesson Stallari 
    (Prince 4 times, King of An Tir once, King of West twice)
Thorin Njalsson (King 4 times)
Ulfred Drommefjell (Prince twice, King once)

Angharad Severn o Glamorgan (Queen 5 times)
Anne of Caerdydd (Princess 3 times)
Lenora Lenora di Felicie (Princess twice, Queen once)

==================

Elizabeth "E.B." Braidwood                Donna Hrynkiw
Lions Gate, An Tir                        Kwantlen College
donna@envy.kwantlen.bc.ca                 Surrey, B.C.
From: larsen@ecn.purdue.EDU (Jill Larsen)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Attn. Moonwulf's Midrealm Rangers
Date: 13 Oct 92 17:02:52 GMT
Organization: The Internet

Good Gentles,

I have need of information from Midrealm Rangers who read the net or who are
known of by those who read the net.

**WARNING**  DO NOT TELL WULF OF THIS MESSAGE OR ASK HIM ABOUT ITS CONTENTS

(I was told to say that the Wulf Wife knows and says "yes" to all of this. :)

I am planning a Christmas Present for the Baron Moonwulf at our next Baronial
Court this December 5 and I need your assistance.  I am making particolor black
and dark green tabards for those Rangers who wish them.  These are NOT 'pufda'
tabards, nor required wear. :)  Suggestions from local Rangers is for wear at
'formal' occations such as special feasts or guard duties, or for wearing during
Pensic woods battle (period camo.;-).  So far response has been positive within 
Rivenstar and Sternfeld.  But I am unable to reach all of the Rangers with my 
feet and voice, so I am hoping I may be able to reach more through the Rialto 
and those who read the Rialto and are kind enough to pass this on.

If you are interested, please send me the following information: 
(inet: larsen@ecn.purdue.edu     snailmail: Jill Larsen, 704 Hawkins Grad. Hse.,
 phone: (317)495-6999                       W. Lafayette, IN  47906-3571)   

	Name (given and SCA)
	Address (mundane, SCA and net)
	Phone #
	If you want one or not
	If you are willing to donate to the cause and how much

If you are not interested, I would appreciate it if you would still send me
your name and location information as another lord (a local Ranger) is 
considering compiling a Ranger 'phone list', and I have agreed to assist him
in finding information.

Your assistance with this Christmas Gift is greatly appreciated.  Thank you for 
your kind attention.

In Service,

Jillian


Jillian Stevynsdaughter			Jill Larsen (larsen@ecn.purdue.edu)
Barony Rivenstar			Purdue Univ.
Middle Kingdom				W. Lafayette, IN
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Inexpensive, good looking armor
Date: Mon, 05 Oct 1992 20:32:52

 Here in Ansteorra, Duke Charles Inman MacMoor sells a 'starter kit' -- helm,  elbow cops and knee cops for about $100.  You're responsible for adding your  own padding, and all the leather straps, and the rest.  Most fighters  here will make a kidney belt out of leather, sometimes adding metal plates,  sometimes not, and a gorget and consider themselves fully armored.

 -- Vashti


 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Subject: Re: What is a Baron 
Reply-To: whheydt@PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 22:23:34 GMT

In article <1992Oct13.184518.4517@PA.dec.com> haslock@rust.zso.dec.com (Nigel Haslock) writes:
>Point 1. The right of seneschals to hold court.
>
>At present it is difficult for an established branch that does not happen
>to be a Barony to create and distribute awards. This is an 'unfairness' that is
>built into our current system. I see no justification for denying a branch
>the right to make local awards. Realisticly, a significant number of branches
>do this, having found some way of working around the laws to do it. I would
>prefer to legalize their position.

I think this is the crux of a particular point...  Who said that
everything has to "fair"?  I hold that making this fair by permitting
Seneschals to hold court and give awards violates the Medieval
atmosphere--and as such, this change in structure ought not to
proceed.  If a group is large enough to want be a Barony and wants a
local reward structure--let 'em become a Barony.

>Having a monster sized branch that keeps on growing may sound like a good way
>to have a pool of people to apply for every available officer position. I
>choose to believe that lots of small groups allows lots of members to try out
>as officers without screwing things up for hundreds of people when they
>make a mistake. I also feel that this gives Baronial/Provincial officers
>practice at supervision, thus training them for Regional/Principality/
>Kingdom officer positions.

First...  This begs the question about how many people *want* to be
officers...  Secondly, if you're swimming in potential officers, try
doing more things, having Deputy Officers, and generally letting folks
change office more often.

>Point 3. One publicised event a year.
>
>As Arval pointed out, not all Kingdoms require that all branches hold
>events.

Yup.

>My feeling here is that every group needs financial independance and thus
>a source of income. A group also needs to seen as a group by its peers. I
>feel that holding an event is a simple way to achieve this. While local
>meetings are also good, I do not see them allowing the group to be
>recognisable by the rest of the Kingdom.

Hmmm... The Province of the Mists generally holds one event a
year--and (if we're careful) there's no site fee.  What was that you
said about financial independence?  There's also the issue of how the
finances run in the kingdom.  

	--Hal

        Hal Ravn, Province of the Mists, West Kingdom
        Wilson H. Heydt, Jr.,  Albany, CA 94706,  510/524-8321 (home)
-- 
Hal Heydt                    |    "Boycott Time-Warner"
Analyst, Pacific*Bell        |         --J. Danforth Quayle
510-823-5447                 |    "... kill all the lawyers."
whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM    |         --William Shakespeare
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: schuldy@progress.COM (Mark Schuldenfrei)
Subject: Re: Term Limits for the Landed Baroncy
Organization: Progress Software Corp.
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 16:03:48 GMT

I'm going to jump into a discussion between Fairfax and Arval...

Fairfax wrote:
  Seneschals, heralds, and other officers have (in Midrealm Law, at least)
  clearly defined responsibilities.  Barons do not... Unlike the offices,
  in which failure to perform certain tasks has real world consequences,
  the barons are given power only within the shared fantasy of the SCA.

And Arval answered:
  The fact that barons act only within the medieval world of the Society and
  the fact that your baron has no formal list of responsibilities are
  unrelated.  Kings and Queens and heralds act only within the medieval world
  of the Society, but have very clearly defined responsibilities.

Arval, that's patently false.  Kings and Queens have the right to remove
or appoint officers which handle mundane affairs, to pass laws in their
Curia that handle mundane funds, and create rules and mundane requirements
for all sorts of things that effect groups in a mundane sense.  Even
Heralds register armory in a process which is not strictly re-creation,
and while are heraldic rules are more or less period inspired, there is
no evidence that they are actually period. (And plenty they are not).


In my insufficiently humble opinion, there can be no such thing as
decently objective criteria for becoming a Baron and Baroness. Using
Carolingia again as an example (but hypothetically), I can think of
a number of persons I would love to see as Baron of Carolingia should
Patri and Barbara choose to step down.  None of them would be Patri
and Barbara, and each of them would begin to shape the Barony in their
own successful ways.  Each way, of course, being different.

The only criteria each of them would have in common, is that they are
the sort of person I would like to be "lead" by. This argument puts
me square in the same camp as Fairfax.

	Tibor
--
Mark Schuldenfrei (schuldy@progress.com)
[I'm just showin' you my opinions: this ain't a gift]
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Cardweaving
Date: Mon, 05 Oct 1992 20:36:58

 TB> Pardon my ignorance,
 TB>     What is cardweaving?

 O wow --- have you ever woven anything on an inkle or other type of loom?   Usually, weaving has two sides -- the top and the bottom.  Card weaving or  tablet weaving, is done with 4 threads intead of just two, threaded through  the holes punched in the corners of the cards.  As the cards are  rotated in the deck, different cards rise to the top and bottom.  Depending  on the ways you turn the cards, you can create elaborate patterns,  lettering, brocading,.... I've seen pieces with heraldic knotwork beas




ties  in them, or blackletter saying ""This is the Booke of the Stargate" , and  many lovely patterns.  It's difficult and timeconsuming, but beautiful.

 -- Vashti


 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: james@wrs.com (James Moore)
Subject: Re: Strict Membership Silliness
Organization: Wind River Systems
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1992 18:08:03 GMT

In airteagal <sepYrtG00YUnRXSXI4@andrew.cmu.edu>, scriobhann ds4p+@andrew.cmu.edu (David Schroeder):
>As things stand today, there are MANY 'occasions,' like fighting
>practices, dance practices (dangerous falls, anyone?) and the like
>that are NOT listed in the Kingdom newsletter and thereby official.

This strikes me as very strange.  If your dance and fighter practices aren't
listed in the kingdom newsletter, how do new members find out about
them?  I would think that it's just as important to list these
regularly occuring events in the kingdom newsletters as it is to list
one-time events.

-- 
James Moore                            /|\                        james@wrs.com
Wind River Systems                     \|/                  Alameda, California
	 "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half
			  didn't mean anything at all"
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: tbarnes@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (thomas wrentmore barnes)
Subject: Re: Why have the SCA, Inc.?
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1992 20:19:48 GMT

In article <MeplIYi00WB8JXXGYJ@andrew.cmu.edu> David Schroeder <ds4p+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
>Greetings once again, good gentles --
>
Mucho good stuff on what the BoD should and shouldn't be doing deleted.
>I'll look forward to your thoughts and observations.
>

Here's my list of things that the BoD does well.

1) Standardization of Fighting and Archery rules. So you don't have to
reauthorize every time you go out of kingdom.

2) Central source for publications for the SCA (officer's Handbooks and
the like).

3) Central registry for names and armory. So we don't have armory
conflicts when we go out of kingdom.  

4) Standardization of rules for Kingdom organization and behavior.
So that people have a "legal" recourse when King Swaetsochs the Obtuse
decides that he wants to go against public opinion, good taste and commn
sense with some folly or another.

5) Insurance. Which started the whole fuss.

Here's my list of what the BoD does poorly.

1) Local management.

2) Explaining the rationale for their actions in terms that the populace
will accept.

	(We need $100,000 for a frombotzer, so we're going to have to
raise the rates. How do you want us to raise the rates? vs. Our old
frombotzer is on its last legs, it helped us to coordinate all sorts of
neat, nifty things that have really helped the society. We need to
replace it. Any suggestions on how to replace it or raise money to
replace it?)

3) Making the members of the BoD seem like real, accessable, nice, people,
rather than an invisible, faceless "THEM".

Of course, they're doing all these things now.

Lothar
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mdewis@esk.compserv.utas.edu.au ( Mark Richard Dewis)
Subject: Re: SCAidians who FRP games (part II)
Organization: University of Tasmania at Launceston
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 92 07:16:59 GMT

In article <1550@niktow.canisius.edu>, salley@niktow.canisius.edu (David Salley) writes:
[...in response to a comment that FRP rules often do not make sense vis
  real combat...]

>Agreed! From the GURPS [Generical Universal Role Playing System] Handbook: p114
>"Shields in Close Combat -- In close combat, a shield becomes a potentially
>deadly nuisance.  It still provides its passive defense.  However, it hampers
>you while you wear it.  Any attack you make in close combat has a penalty
>equal to the passive defence of your shield!  ...  It takes one turn, with
>a successful DX [dexterity] roll, to get rid of your shield during a close
>combat."
>
>The book defines 'one turn' as 'one second in real time'  In the first place,
>I don't see how you could get rid of a shield in one second let alone under
>combat conditions unless the shield is ONLY hand held and not attached to
>your arm.  In the second place, if you don't want a shield in combat, why
>are you wearing one??  My lady and I laughed hysterically when we first read
>this.

Um, from my recollection of GURPS, dosen't "close combat" refer to grappling
your opponent and employing daggers and such? I can see where a shield could
get in the way in that situation. I agree that 1 second seems a little short
to get rid of any sheild apart from a buckler, but I'm surprised that GURPS
is being cited as an example of unrealistic game combat; it matches up quite
well next to dinosaurs like AD&D.  Now if only we could get more people
playing Pendragon ... :)

-- Richard of Dunheved, Lochac.
-- 

mdewis@pieman.compserv.utas.edu.au ... but you can call me Richard.
Forma Propositum Perpetuo Praecedit.
From: boris@sys6626.bison.mb.ca (boris)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: FRP and negative stereotypes
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 92 05:25:26 CST
Organization: System 6626 BBS, Winnipeg Manitoba Canada

  For all who care. We have worked it out in e-mail and cleared up the 
misunderstandings on each side. I beleive there to be no further need to 
rebutt my comments.  
  The Result?  Well, I'm holding firm on a coupla points but I have 
apoligised for some stupid personal remarks. 

 'nuff said.
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: atterlep@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Montgomery J. Moose)
Subject: Re: Landed Baronage Thoughts
Organization: National Association for the Disorganized
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 17:23:28 GMT

In article <YeoanS200WB5IQgb4r@andrew.cmu.edu> David Schroeder <ds4p+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
>Greetings good gentles
>from a rather busier 'poppa' Bertram --

>[Elizabeth] is, generally, a much better baby than I had any right to expect..

  I'm not surprised, given her lineage...

>I believe that a formal 'vote of no confidence' procedure
>might be one way to solve the problem.  The details could
>be hammered out at length, but in practice a formal 'vote
>of no confidence' could be proposed by petition of some
>substantial fraction of a barony's population (20-33%)
>which would then trigger a full barony-wide polling.
>If the current baron and/or baroness could not 
>command some much higher level of support (51-66%)
>then the current baron/ess would be required to step
>down and the kingdom's customary replacement process
>would go into effect.

  1)  Who is eligible to vote?  The BoD is likely to suggest "all paying
members," and I think that this is probably a good idea.  Before you attempt
to strangle me, realize that paid membership is the only definition of 
membership that does not rely on the subjective opinions of the people of the
barony.  Membership status, while not the best measure of activity, is the only
one that can't be used to start a fight.  I assume that the vote would extend
to all cantons of the barony as well as the barony itself.
  Of course, this does have problems.  In our area, groups have a lot of
cross-over, and our baron is recorded as a member of a neighboring shire.  Many
of the leading members of our barony would be ineligible to vote in this system
even though they are paying members.

  2)  How many people are needed?  After all, there's a big difference between
1/5 and 1/3 of a group.  I would suggest that 25.01% of the barony be required
to sign the petition, simply because that guarantees the support of half of the
number required for a majority.  I would also suggest that a simple majority be
required to remove a baron/ess, since majority support is (practically) needed 
to put a new baron in place.

  3)  How should the vote be done?  I would suggest having one of two systems:
either a secret ballot run by a neutral party with a list of eligible people
who is sworn to secrecy (the regional or deputy kingdom seneschal would be a 
good choice) or by public vote.  Either way, the vote should be given some time
(such as a month.)

  I would suggest that the old baron not be left out of consideration to
replace himself.  It's entirely possible that the baron, even if "impeached,"
may be the best replacement around.  If the barony can't find a suitable 
replacement, they should by all means have to stay with their original baron--
or consider changing status.
  
		Alan Fairfax Aluricson, Fenris Herald
		Canton of the Riding of Hawkland Moor
		Barony of Northwoods, Midrealm
		atterlep@vela.acs.oakland.edu		**Magnitudo Vocis**
From: del@babel.DIALix.oz.au (D Elson)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: What is a Baron (territorial) 
Distribution: world
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 92 12:34:00 GMT
Organization: 


In article <18039@ucdavis.ucdavis.edu> helm@jade.ucdavis.edu writes:

  > I got to know the American ambassador and his wife when I was in
  > Vienna.  When they first got there, they discovered that the state
  > department had shipped all their luggage to Sydney, no kidding!
  > It really happened!  Isn't bureuacracy fun?

And the airlines aren't the only berks about:  The registry office here
in Australia spent a whole year redirecting TI's sent to us by the
registry office in California in respect of a member whose address
clearly stated "AUSTRIA".  They just got stuck in the international
mail bag with all of our TIs.

Del
--
-----------------------------------+-------------------------------------
D Elson                            |  del@DIALix.oz.au del@adied.oz.au
-----------------------------------+-------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca