From: franklin@ug.cs.dal.ca (Steve Franklin)
Newsgroups: alt.irc
Subject: I REQUEST RESPONSES TO THE FOLLOWING QUESTION...
Summary: questions questions questions
Keywords: answers answers answers
Date: 29 Aug 92 18:37:38 GMT
Followup-To: alt.irc
Organization: Math, Stats & CS, Dalhousie University, Halifax, NS, Canada

This posting is intended to address two questions which I am certainly
curious to hear your thoughts on. The first question is the validity
of IRC's merits, and how it affects different individuals. Is it too
abusable? Is it solely a source of entertainment or a haven for
the socially repressed and lethargic? From my conversations with
various people, I have come to the conclusion that we see both types
on IRC, but the important question that remains is "how many of each?"

   As well, I have addressed another question of interest in this conversation.
Exactly what are the guidelines of censorship and privacy on IRC if any?
This was initially addressed when the individual whom I had the conversation
with was not happy about me including his/her words on the topic. However,
even after assuring the person of a proper pseudonym, they were not
satisified. Seeing a waste of a good topic with value to all, I overlooked
his/her concerns in the process and have posted the conversation which
I fully consider to be 50% my own. I would be interesting in knowing hw
you folks feel about it. Also, stemming from this - should an individual
be responsible for what they say and do on irc? I have seen many a rude
and suggestive statement on irc which could be considered harassment
or libel - is there no guideline or action that can be taken for this
type of behavior?


Note: "None" is the pseudonym of the other participant in the conversation
An individual we will call "Magic" interrupts the conversation, but actually
adds to the point so is included.

It actually gets better as it rolls on - see if you can stick it out
until the end...

#------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Original question was phrased to the #hotsex audience along the lines of:
   "Don't you feel foolish spending your time on a channel #hotsex when 
   irc and hotsex are paradoxical, and can't exist together?]

#-------------------------------------------------------------------------

*None* not as much as you ought to for jumpin on and off a channel to tell
         other people how stupid they are.
<Superman> yes, but one of us is in reality... one of us is not
*None* but maybe that's just my opinion./
<Superman> you're right - that is just your opinion
*None* some of us have better grips on reality than you believe...
*None* ...not everyone on this channel is here to try and "pick up"
         people...
<Superman> no, I think you're wrong... just MY opinion though
*None* then tell me why you irc....
*None* if you dont mind...
<Superman> trying to get unix help... I don't irc anymore although I used to
<Superman> I've outgrown the phase I guess...
<Superman> you will too
*None* probably....
*None* but is that a reason to insult people who havent yet?
<Superman> I didn't insult - just more of a reminder... too many souls have
   fallen at the hands of irc and it's pseudo social environment
<Superman> besides, that's my style on USENET - gotta remind people that they
   don't HAVE to be geeks if they don't want to... if you read news I suppose
   you'd already have known that
*None* it works ok if you keep a sense of perspective on it...
<Superman> *None* that's the problem though - people don't keep a sense of
   perspective on it - why are you on irc when you could be out with REAL
   friends?
<Superman> That is my point
*None* I understand that, but not everyone on here is outgoing...I am, but
         most of these people are not...
<Superman> yes, but irc doesn't make them any better
<Superman> irc makes them worse - why even BOTHER trying to interact with
   people in the real world, when you can hide behind a nickname and a bunch
   of ASCII?
<Superman> so they don't...
<Superman> they join channels like #hotsex, and attempt to pursue
   relationship that they would normally run away from
<Superman> it doesn't make them any BETTER at interactions - instead they
   become weak in the "real" world, when they don't have the confidence and
   time to choose their words that come so easily on irc
<Superman> see my point?
<Superman> face it - irc is bad for almost EVERYONE - few exceptions
*None* well, you yourself arent going to change them, you realize...
*None* valid points made, however.
*None* Just curious to see what you were thinking.
<Superman> I don't thinK i agree with you - people can only exist in such a
   frail and superficial environment if EVERYONE plays the game
<Superman> if there's one guy in a magic show shouting "IT"S FAKE! IT"S
   FAKE", then it takes the fun out of the magic show right?
*None* not really. I can tune people out well.
<Superman> well I'm glad for you - many can't
<Superman> besides - truth hurts, but truth makes sense... they know they're
   wasting their time
*None* it -is- a time killer...
<Superman> yeah, but there are better ways to kill time
<Superman> and haven't you ever seen "net marriages"? that's a symptom that
   something is TERRIBLY wrong with irc
<Superman> listen to ***** for a while and you will know what I mean
<Superman> he's a nice guy, but I assure you, he is NOT outgoing, or socially
   healthy
*None* yes, but this is also fun for those who take it for what it is...an
         escape, however temporary...
<Superman> you shouldn't want to escape, None
<Superman> shouldn't need one - if you need a break, go read a book - but
   don't immerse yourself into delusions of a social environment that don't
   exist
*None* what is reading? What is watching tv?
<Superman> reading and watching t.v. don't conjure images of friends you don't
   have
*None* same thing, different tune...
<Superman> or relatioships that don't exist
<Superman> any song by a different tune is NOT the same song
*None* relationships and friends are made....you have to be very careful
         with those.
<Superman> careful with those? I say avoid them
*None* you refuse to see that there are really people on the other end of
         the screen.
<Superman> no, I realize all to well who's at the other end of the screen
<Superman> you on the other hand refuse to see the other peole at the end of
   the screen for what they REALLY are
*None* and that you can get close to them if you want to, it takes time...
<Superman> in fact, as you deal with me, you have a mental image of me and
   how I think already
<Superman> when it is rarely close to the true image
<Superman> that is the danger of irc - it creates expectations and images
   that are not and should not be there
*None* no, I have no images. I make no impressions of you.
<Superman> well - I think that's bullshi*. but if it's true then it's rare
*None* why should I? I dont know you well enough.
<Superman> most do as I said: have a mental picture of who they're dealing
   with, and judge them accordingly
*None* Most do...which is why I dont tell anyone physical descriptions over
         the net...it is pointless...
*None* and that you can get close to them if you want to, it takes time...
<Superman> in fact, as you deal with me, you have a mental image of me and
   how I think already

*Magic* I stand corrected, the hotsex is back in charge
<Superman> does that surprise you?
*Magic* no, but I just ignore it
<Superman> kinda takes the fun out of irc if you ask me...
*Magic* I usually just msg over all the garbage

*None* to me, you are a collection of ideas and words that is embodied
         somewhere in a human form of some type...
<Superman> well, then you are one of the rare few who doesn't create first
   impressions -either that, or you're kidding yourself
<Superman> as we speak, #hotsex, being the most populated channel on irc has
   once again turned into a virtual sex frenzy (as told to me by Magic in
   any case.
<Superman> doesn't that prove MY point more than yours?
*None* you cannot second guess me, because you dont know me either....
*None* What people do with their own personas is their business...
<Superman> I don't have to know you to try and figure out human nature
<Superman> everyone is predictable to a certain extent
<Superman> and people's "personas" as you call them should be the same as
   their real personalities - otherwise that's when things become unhealthy
*None* I think it's silly, but if they want to stage a mock orgy with words,
         then they have the right to do it...
<Superman> they havea right to do it of COURSE - but does that mean it's
   healthy?
<Superman> that's my point - irc is condoning a sort of hermit-like
   anti-socialness...
<Superman> a person need never leave home, because everythin they want
   socially is available through the computer - THAT is my concern
*None* It basically comes down to allowing people to do as they please...
*None* and allowing them to learn from their own mistakes...
<Superman> - I can fully agree with that None - ALLOWing them to do as they
   please - but I don't know if we should be SUPPORTING it
<Superman> and None, don't kid yourself - some people dont' learn from their
   mistakes...
*None* and some do...
<Superman> I fully believe that irc is addictive just like anything else
<Superman> and to think that they can all snap right out of it and revert to
   their somewhat bland social lives is unrealistic
*None* anything is addictive...my dad is addicted to Diet Pepsi.
<Superman> you know what kind of fit many people go through when they lose
   their USENET accounts? It ain't pretty...
*None* but that's beside the point...
<Superman> being addicted to Diet Pepsi may be a financial and saccharrin
   problem, but it isn't going to affect you as a person
<Superman> did your dad have trouble dealing with people in the real world
   after drinking too much Diet Pepsi? I argue that many individuals on irc Do
   have this problem
*None* well, then they should go get themselves involved in other
         things...which is what I tell people when they tell me that they are
         bored...
<Superman> okay, then I'm glad you sort of agree with me. The thing is, irc
   is much EASIER to do than anythign else...
<Superman> given the choice of looking for somethign to do, and irc - many of
   them choose irc
<Superman> see?                                 
*None* I agree that they should get out, that they should get involved...
*None* but if they wish to talk to people and play on irc for a while when
         they arent really pressed for something to do, then why not?
<Superman> you see it much more lightly then I do - while you see the people
   just on killing time, I see alot of people who are utterly addicted and
   spend hours upon hours on this thing
<Superman> clearly this is a difference in opinion, where you see the glass
   half full, I see it half empty
*None* yes, but we agreed to disagree when we started this conversation...:)
*None* I was just very curious to see what your reasoning behind those
         proclamations are...
<Superman> true enough - mind if I post this to alt.irc - I'd be curious to
   get other people's input, and this is certainly a good start
<Superman> and yes, i did keep the /lastlog
*None* actually, yes, I do mind...I'd rather not be posted.
<Superman> why the hell is that?
<Superman> this would make for an interesting topic - everyone's going to
   agree with you,and no one will agree with me
<Superman> I'm sure you'll find nothing but support on the topic
*None* I dont post....unless it is entirely written by me...
<Superman> that's quite silly - do you mind if I change your name then?
*None* yes....
<Superman> why?
*None* I would rather not have this posted at all.
*None* anyways, as I was saying, if I post a rebuttal to your ideas, it will
         be far better for me to rewrite it...I care deeply about my writing
         and refuse to put my name or even a psuedonym to something that I
         dont consider a best effort.
*None* I dont care if everyone agrees with me or not...
<Superman> well, how do you suggest we approach this then - because I would
   like this transcript posted and discussed, rather than going to waste for
   the sake of your whimsical habits
*None* Yes, but it IS my "whimsical habit" that compells me to say no.
<Superman> no period? You want none of it circulated?
*None* None, please. I dont want any of it circulated.
<Superman> well in that case I suppose I will post it without your consent and
   see how the audience responds.
<Superman> that way I propose two items to be discussed: 1) the merits of irc,
   and 2) the conditions of privacy on IRC
<Superman> if you care to rebuttle or flame me for my actions, then I welcome
   them - I will note that I posted these words without the individuals'
   consent, and I assure you, I will no choose a pseudonym that reflects your
   name in the least
<Superman> okay?
*None* Not much I can do about it, is there?
<Superman> Not really i guess... I hope you're not upset, but it seems like
   such a waste of an interesting and spontaneous conversation
<Superman> you suggest that you would like a rehearsed writing on the matter,
   but that would defeat the purpose of the initial matter
<Superman> I"ll check in those dorky irc docs to see if what i"m doing is
   truly wrong... if so, then obviously I'll refrain
<Superman> I think I'm being fair about this, and if the audience thinks I'm
   an ass, they surely will not hesitate to tell me so
*None* no, there are more points I could make, given time to put them
         coherently.
<Superman> but then this conversation would lose it's spontaneous flavor...
   not nearly as valuable then - besides, you can retort the post with more
   points, and people won't even know it was you that was being referred to
<Superman> rebuttle can come after/if I post
<Superman> well, if I can put somethig half decent together, I'll give you a
   shout (incedentally, I'm gonna include this final part too ) I think it
   would make an interesting point with respect to the validity of privacy in
   irc
<Superman> any choice for a flashy pseudonym?
*None* none....
<Superman> None it is then
<Superman> later
#----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Okay, so y'all probably think I'm a jackass... Well, if any of you made it 
this far, then I'd certainly be interested in any ideas you had on the matter.
Surely you have a contribution or two aside from a flame?
   steve
p.s. - mail to franklin@ug.cs.dal.ca would be great too...
-- 
aasdSteveFranklin-Subliminal Psychology Major.ks;dlasBlueJaysRULEkasdfeahsdbfl
sd;lfaswoq[eBuyMeAQuadra!!!mbnZMXCNdfsba;KdSPAMiuroqiyetIBMSuxiweuryth'ewr;mxn
qpuepriuPartyOneqtuj;,n.,xnc,kjasFlameMeNot!;lkj;lkgkjd;askElvisLivesjhfquweru
zx.cfranklin@ug.cs.dal.ca,sk;t;lrut[Superboy@ac.dal.cav.zx,Physics!eq3rwkh;oHA