From: dabbott@augean.eleceng.adelaide.edu.AU (Derek Abbott)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.clinton,alt.politics.elections
Subject: Re: Wealth (was: Re: My thoughts on Clinton's character)
Date: 27 Jul 92 01:54:34 GMT
Organization: Electrical and Electronic Eng., University of Adelaide

In article <92204.120928ZEITLIN@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> ZEITLIN@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (Cary Zeitlin) writes:
>Folks,
>
>  I've been lurking on this group for a week or so now, unmoved
>to write until I saw the post from Derek Abbott. I just had to
>respond. Please forgive me if I've breached netequitte by flaming
>this turkey, but it had to be done.
>

OK Cary, Here's my response to your comments

Derek.


>>>Pfft.  For my part I don't believe that people of equal abilities
>>>should be constrained by the environment they're brought up in.
>
>>They're not. It's a country with a free enterprise system.
>
>*Everyone* is influenced by the environment in which they are raised;
>Mr. Abbott seems to think that the existence of a "free enterprise
>system" eliminates all environmental constraints within said country.
>This is either naive or hopelessly out of touch with reality.
>

Obviously there are some constraints that are hard to overcome (eg. if
you have no arms & legs.) I'm all for assisting people with genuine
difficulties. However, accepting excuses from able workers only stunts
the growth of free enterprise.

>>>Yes,
>>>people are born with different attributes, but people who are born
>>>wealthy have an opportunity to develop these attributes whereas the
>>>poor do not.
>
>>We are all born with the same potential to succeed and we all have
>>many opportunities for success in our lives.
>
>Huh??!!! Ever hear of pre-natal care? Ever hear about how one's
>environment as an infant (something over which the infant has
>*no* control, regardless of its "attitude") has a profound effect
>on the child's later development and ability to succeed in school
>and socialization. We do NOT all have the same potential at birth
>and we do NOT all have many opportunities for success. This crap
>can only have been written by someone born to wealth and privelege,
>who has no idea what life is like for the vast majority of humanity.
>

I do. 'Cause I'm down there. But not complaining. Just working.
I agree that the environment at birth has an effect. But it is mostly
the "attitudes" from that environment that have the biggest effect.
It's the attitudes we need to help improve not the comfort zones.

Success does not grow out of being comfortable. No pain, no gain.


>>We all have an equal opportunity to be as unequal as we like.
>
>Hogwash. See above.

Ditto.

>
>>It's actually a disadvantage if you are already born rich, because then
>>you aren't so motivated to improve.
>
>I take this to prove that Mr. Abbott was born into wealth. Only a
>whining, snivelling "poor little rich boy" could come up with such
>transparently self-serving tripe. Try telling the billions of people
>who live on our planet in poverty that being born rich is a
>"disadvantage." Gag.
>

Read my words carefully. I said disadvantage in terms of motivation to improve.

>>>Consider education, which I think we all agree is
>>>important to economic success.
>
>>No we don't all agree. How do you explain the zillions of rags-to-riches
>>type stories of uneducated imigrants who come to America, with nothing but
>>2 cents in their back pocket, work their behinds off, don't even speak the
>>language and then become millionaires?
>
>>Why can't a non-immigrant do the same? It's all to do with ATTITUDE not
>>education.
>
>As at least one other post has pointed out, if you believe all those
>Horation Alger stories, it's time to wake up and smell the coffee.
>That's *NOT* reality for the vast majority of immigrants. Sure, some
>of them do quite well and are rewarded for hard work and industry.
>Many make it a point to seek out education; they understand its
>value, even if Mr. Abbot doesn't.
>

Sure there are lot's of immigrants that didn't make it.  The difference
is ATTITUDE. From which flows discipline, persistency, consistency etc. etc.
needed for success.

>>>Do the wealthy have an environment in
>>>which they have to content daily violence and misery while they study?
>>>Do the poor have private tutors to fall back on?  Small classroom
>>>sizes and well equipped schools?
>
>>Education has nothing to do with it. How come Economics Professors
>>drive beaten up old Volkswagens?
>
>Huh? What does this have to do with anything? And which Economics
>professors are you referring to? More claptrap.
>

OK so you don't like my humour either. Fine.

>>>Do they wealthy have to worry about
>>>their health, about where they'll get their next meal?
>
>>No. But when they were working to become wealthy they did.
>
>Those who worked to become wealthy, that is. Ever hear of
>inherited wealth, Mr. Abbott? I bet you have.

That is a very small percentage of people. And because
they didn't work for it, they don't always know the principles of how
not to loose their wealth. Unless their parents were tough on them and taught
them hard lessons.

>
>>>It is NOT
>>>about income redistribution, not in this day and age, after we've seen
>>>the failure and successes of the Great Society.
>
>>Agreed. If you divided the worlds wealth equally amongst everybody, it would
>>end up back into the hands of those who "think rich" 2-5 years later.
>
>>>It is about providing
>>>equal opportunity early in life.
>
>>Yea. Agreed. But it's not education that does it, it's attitude.
>
>>If you're saying that we should teach attitude in schools, then I agree with
>>you.
>
>The point Abbott is trying to make is that attitude is vitally important.
>I don't disagree with that point, but there are surely better ways to
>make the argument a persuasive one instead of the nauseating rant
>to which he has subjected us.

I'm glad you agree about the attitude. Try some more yourself, and the
results will amazingly transform your environment.

A smile is contagious.

Go for it.

Enjoy,


Derek.
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