HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: coyote@brewich.hou.tx.us (Fayth)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Reconciling BDSM and Pagan Beliefs
Date: Sat, 07 Nov 92 09:30:57 CST
Organization: The Brewers' Witch BBS, +1 713 272 7350, Brewich.Hou.TX.US

> mind.  Perhaps person X likes being submissive because s/he was beaten
> as a child, or perhaps person X likes it because it's just a lot of fun
> and immensely satisfying.  As long as person X is consenting to the behavior
> I don't think it's a problem.
> 
> >It's definitely something to think about, because sex IS
> >important, and tremendously meaningful. But our society (magazines,
> >films, music, etc.) has trivialized it to the point that we treat it
> >with a casualness that is downright dangerous.
> 
> Perhaps everyone should use safewords ...
> 
> >=gwyn
> 
> 
> -- 
> |  Bill White   +1-614-594-3434     | bwhite@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu            

 
If I may, speaking as someone who has both been abused as a child and who 
has been into BDSM <having studied this phenomenon from all psychological 
angles, of course>, I think that the appeal in the BDSM arts for someone 
who WAS abused as a child is not that they are accustomed to it or that 
they have come to expect their love to come wrapped in pain. The whole 
point, at least in my case, is the fact that you have the freedom to GIVE 
your power up rather than have it wrested from you forcefully, as 
happened when I was a child. The very idea of being able to give up my 
power allows me to enjoy my position of submission and revel in it rather 
than being miserable because I have no control over the situation. The 
self-control is, of course yet another point. I insist on forcing myself 
past my known limits. 
 
Coyote

s

------------------
coyote@brewich.hou.tx.us (Fayth)
Origin: The Brewers' Witch BBS -- Houston, TX -- +1 713 272 7350
     "Silence is the voice of complicity" - Vote Early, Vote Often!
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: holzman@fnalno.fnal.gov (Daniel B. Holzman)
Subject: Re: Women and Men Witches
Organization: Fermi National Accelerator Lab
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 21:32:59 GMT
X-Posted-From: fnalno.fnal.gov
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In article <1992Nov12.022704.18530@news.ysu.edu>, ag055@yfn.ysu.edu (Ward 
Chanley) writes:
> Again, it goes back to the issue of psychological or 
> social differences between men and women; matriarchy 
> wasn't/isn't the "mirror image" pf patriarchy and
> there is evidence to suppourt the idea that when 
> you put women n power, they exercise that power 
> in ways far different than their male counterparts.
> The feminist CR groups of the 70s abhorred jeiracrhy
> of any kind, and Dianic craft inherrited that 
> tendancy; the role of HPS rotates among all 
> coveners more often than not.

Your data is incomplete.

I have been in several, and am presently in a, mixed-gender covens which are
similarly non-hierarchical.

Margaret Thatcher and Indira Ghandi are both evidence that a woman in charge
doesn't automatically get you nurturing, non-hierarchical power structures.

Various men's groups I have participated in have been non-hierarchical as well.

Various Dianic groups of mixed gender (such as Morgan McFarlane's, mentioned in
_Drawing Down the Moon_) do impose a gender based hierarchy -- with women on
top.

The writings of various Dianic Separatists (eg. Barbara Walker's _Skeptical
Feminist_ and Z. Budapest's _Holy Book of Women's Mysteries, Vol II_) do call
for gender based hierarchies.

Conclusions, using your data and mine:

Gender does not determine whether someone will be hierarchical in orientation
or not.  To the extent that it does, it is the result of socialization, not
inherent to the gender, and not universal to the gender, even in people of this
society.  Men are capable of non-hierarchical relationship, women are capable
of hierarchical relationships.  Thus, the solution to the problem of our
society is not in changing who the focus is on, but in how each individual
chooses to interact.

> When Stehphen says he's a female supremacist, I 
> think that comes from the realization that a 
> female oriented culture was (and would be) far 
> more inclusive than a patriarchal one.

Perhaps matriarchy is not best word to describe what you are trying to get
across.
-- 
Daniel B. Holzman                    | Eight Words the Witch's Rede Fufill:
HOLZMAN@FNAL.BITNET                  | An It Harm None, Do What You Will
HOLZMAN@FNALC.FNAL.GOV.INTERNET      |
                                     | All Acts of Love and Pleasure are
Love doesn't subtract,               | Her Rituals
   it multiplies    - Heinlein       |
                                     | Speak the Word.
Disclaimer:  Fermilab's far too large to have an opinion, let alone mine.
From: pharvey@mipos3.intel.com (Paul Harvey)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: The truth about Tipper Gore (was:Re: the US elections...)
Date: 10 Nov 92 19:14:30 GMT
Organization: everybody see the problem but the president and he ain't livin' in the ghetto so is evident

In article <1992Nov9.205900.1@ulkyvx.louisville.edu> 
rtsumn01@ulkyvx.louisville.edu writes:
>These are NOT taken out of context, folks! All these bands have songs that
>I am sure would be at least as offensive as anything on that rap album I
>referred to. The government's choice of what they are censoring (and let's
>be honest, this is censoring) is a political thing. They don't listen to
>every album, but pick out certain ones based on political motives. I am
>sad to say that the majority of banned artists are black.

That's the bottom line. The government has long resisted any cultural
connection between the Untouchables in the ghettos and the Middle Class. I
wonder why? Hip-Hop (rap) is the music of the Untouchables and it reflects the
life in the ghettos. No, it is not *nice*, it is the most *offensive*, that's
just the way it is. As Treach would say, "You want me to rap positive, well
positive ain't where I live, I live right around the corner from West Hell,
two blocks from Self Doubt and once in a jail cell."
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: markbr%radian@natinst.com (markbr)
Subject: Re: Annoying, cloying "wann-be"s
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 00:14:38 GMT
Organization: n.o.y.b

In article <gm51TB2w165w@ailanth.UUCP> ailanth!ailsa@wang.com (Ailsa N.T. Murphy) writes:
>
>p.s. anybody want to start a thread on pagan elements in Swamp Thing?
>*grin*

I don't follow it enough to do so. Still, it *is* pretty blatently non-Xian.
Have they *ever* explained what's-his-name, the blond w/ the ciggie? Who *IS*
he, who does he work for, and exactly what powers *does* he have?

	(B-)}

And thank you, very much.

	mark

Xref: sparky alt.pagan:12526 alt.magick:5715
From: swaim@owlnet.rice.edu (Michael Parks Swaim)
Subject: Re: the US elections...
Organization: Rice University
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 00:15:46 GMT

In article <1992Nov10.222604.28429@s1.gov> lip@s1.gov (Loren I. Petrich) writes:
>
>	The big problem I have with present-day ratings systems is
>that they are not specific enough. And the advocates of such things
>seem too much like "I know it when I see it", which is how one judge
>answered the question of how he would define hard-core pornography.
  There was a segment on either "60 minutes" or "20/20" on how ratings
are done. They get a bunch of people unconnected with the film industry 
together, show them the film, and then they vote on the rating it should
recieve. Scientific, no?
-- 
Mike Swaim            | Canada will become the next world power
swaim@owlnet.rice.edu | and they will work to ENSLAVE all the nations
Disclamer: I lie      | of your planet. -Ricardo
Hastur Hastur Hastur Hastur Hastur Hastur Hastur Hasdtr yy['u [{}_+
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe)
Subject: Re: Reconciling BDSM and Pagan Beliefs
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Distribution: usa
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1992 06:28:38 GMT

GC.GGG@forsythe.stanford.edu (Gwyn Gordon) writes:

>Are these words often needed? Or does the dominant person try to
>stay within certain boundaries that s/he senses are the other
>person's limits? There is a tremendous amount of trust involved
>here, isn't there? I would think that this has a lot to do with the
>ecstacy achieved: to give oneself freely, in trust, and to have that
>trust respected. Respected isn't quite the right word -- maybe
>cherished? Sudden word drought has occured in my brain.

Cherished is an excellent word.  As for safewords...well, it varies.  I like
to know that my Sub *will* use safewords, so I can feel safe to experiment some.
However, when Domming, all my attention is on the Sub, so I usually know how the
Sub is doing without resorting to safewords.  I hope that helps some.


              Merry meet, merry part, merry meet again,
                               Br'anArthur

Queer, Peculiar, and Wyrd! :-)

******************************************************************************
Newage is hypoallergenic spirituality--
it's for people who are allergic to the word religion.
                                   --Jon Jay Obermark
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: Ken Laws <batman@apple.apple.com>
Subject: Pagan BBS's?
X-Useragent: Nuntius v1.1.1d11
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 01:41:23 GMT
X-Xxdate: Wed, 4 Nov 92 01:40:19 GMT
X-Xxmessage-Id: <A71DBB83B502300A@laws-ken.apple.com>
Organization: Timeline

A friend of mine is looking for Pagan BBS's (OK, I am too). She'd also like
info on Women's Rights and Gay Rights BBS's, if anyone knows of any.

Thanks,

Ken.
From: K.M.Hetherington@bradford.ac.uk (KM HETHERINGTON)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Hello from Paganlink
Date: 9 Nov 92 17:28:50 GMT
Organization: University of Bradford, UK
Originator: 92129050@ccw201

Paganlink is a network for all who honour and celebrate the spirit of the
Earth, based in the UK.  We have been around for about 5 years and are
currently in a new phase of activity.  The Network supplies information about
Pagan (and related) magazines, meetings, events, campaigns etc as well as
details about our own contacts and local Paganlinkers.

The Network does not promote any particular path, but encourages people to find
one suitable for them.  As a result the Network includes Shamans, Odinists,
various shades of Anarcho-Pagan, Druids and lots of individuals as well as 
Wiccans of all types.

We produce an update (basically a newsletter) covering news and campaigns of
interest to the Pagan community, which we hope to put on the net "in due
course".

This message is really an attempt to contact Pagans from all over the world
and raise awareness of what is happening in this particular intolerant
backwater of the world!  I am one of the volunteers responsible for the
day-to-day running of the Network and I would like to contact Pagans from 
wherever.

If you have any news for our updates, or simply want to introduce yourself,
please mail me at 

K.M.Hetherington@bradford.ac.uk

I am also studying archaeology, so I would particularly like to here from
other Pagan archaeologists so I know I'm not the only hippy around!
Xref: sparky alt.pagan:12755 alt.magick:5824
From: ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com (Ailsa N.T. Murphy)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan,alt.magick
Subject: Re: Santeria and Voodoun
Date: 12 Nov 92 15:09:02 GMT
Reply-To: ailanth!ailsa@wang.com (Ailsa N.T. Murphy)
Organization: Ailanthus Project

eddie@hermes.oit.unc.edu (Edward M. Averett) writes:

oops!  thsi was from Eshin-Fun:
> >You don't even know my gender. I deliberately not made that clear. So
> >do you assume I am a Mr.?
> >
> Oops!  Sorry guys!  I mistakenly gave Mr. Eshin-fun the benefit of the
                                        ^^
> about it being possible that Mr. Eshin-fun knows more about this subje
                               ^^
>
> Mr. Fun.  My godfather is both initiated into both Santeria and into
  ^^
>
> And yes, you're male.  Obviously so. No female on this list is as
> clearly Male-stupid are you are. Hah.
>
yeah, right.  get your head out of your ass, averett.  eshin-fun may be
a fuckhead, but there is no reason to assume that s/he is a MALE
fuckhead.  women can be total dickwads too...

                                             -ailsa

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
                    ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com
                                                        ________
I don't care what consequence it brings,        Silence \      / Action
I have been a fool for lesser things.              =     \    /    =
                                                 Death    \  /    Life
                                                           \/
From: Steve.Dugas@iphase.infoserv.com (Steve Dugas)
Sender: FredGate@iphase.infoserv.com
From: andy@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (Andy Freeman)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: the US elections...
Date: 13 Nov 92 02:26:25 GMT
Followup-To: talk.politics.guns
Organization: Computer Science Department,  Stanford University.

In article <1992Nov11.175926.554@csus.edu> altheimm@nextnet.csus.edu (Murray Altheim) writes:
>Well, unless you know something about military history that I don't, there 
>were no automatic weapons when the second amendment was written.

Sure there were.  Guns that could fire multiple times without
reloading were common in the 1300s.  (There are two obvious ways to do
it even if you assume that our ancestors were stupid.)  Every
principle used for "modern" automatic and semi-automatic weapons was
described in a paper given by Palmer to the Royal Society in the
1600s.  Puckle was granted a patent on one in the early 1700s.
Fergeson's troop used guns like these against colonials.  (That was
just an attempt to get Fergeson out of the hair of the UK's military
establishment and his troop was disbanded and its weapons abandoned
after he was killed.  They didn't like "modern" guns, they favored
guns that were obsolete in the 1300s, but then their descendants
thought that calvary charges would work against machine gun nests in
WWI.  Lots of people, and horses, died proving them wrong.)

>And it was written when the size of the government vs. the population was
>quite different than today.

It isn't obvious that govt has gotten big enough for that growth
to matter.  All of the uniformed services (including police) can
field maybe 2-3 million.  Total population is well over 250 million.

>>They are to PROTECT us FROM the government.
>
>I agree that it was written with the intent to allow a civilian population
>to arm against a tyranny, but we've long since passed the point where this
>is possible.

Tell it to the Viet Cong, or the Afghans.  65% of the violent
revolutions fought against govts with modern armies have been lost by
the govt since 1945.  So much for the decisive big war toys; they
don't have any useful targets in a revolution, so govt has to spend
resources protecting them but doesn't get any benefit from having
them.

The tank folks at Fort Knox claim that they need protection from
infantry and can't enter cities even with that protection.  Big war
toys are even less useful in a revolution because govt can't destroy
their own cities.

-andy
--
UUCP:    {arpa gateways, sun, decwrl, uunet, rutgers}!cs.stanford.edu!andy
ARPA:    andy@cs.stanford.edu
From: alizard@pil.UUCP
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: re: the US elections...
Date: 8 Nov 92 05:43:10 GMT

"something capable of killing many hundreds of people in seconds"
Janis, are you talking about assault rifles or Star Trek phasers? There is
nothing short of backpack nuclear devices with that kind of of firepower.

------------- quote
NO ONE I've ever heard wants to "take anyone's guns away."  That is a
stupid and sadly effective scare tactic used by the NRA to make their
members paranoid.  Could it be because the NRA makes money off of such
paranoia?  Naaaaaaah . . .
------------- end of quote
I've seen fairly extensive quotes from leaders of virtually ALL the anti-
gun organizations that state the banning of private ownership of guns is
their eventual goal. I have also seen reproductions of full page ads by
the President of ABC news stating that handguns should be banned.
------------- quote
And, although I deleted it -- everyone does NOT have the "right" to take
whatever drug they want WHEN THEY WANT.  If they are a switchman working
for COnrail and I'm a train commuter, or I am a surgery patient and they
are an anaesthesiologist, they do NOT have the dubious "right" to take
what drugs they want.  You can do what you want IF YOU DO NOT ENDANGER
OTHERS BY DOING SO.  I think you would also agree to this.
-------------- end of quote
Sounds like you fell for the kind of scare tactic you accuse the NRA of.
As far as I know, while there are quite a few people who favor the
decriminalization of drugs, no one I know of has advocated that laws against
being under the influence of drugs while operating motor vehicles, airplanes,
and other things that directly and immediately affect public safety be
repealed. I don't want to fly and find out at 35,000 feet that the captain
is at... a considerably higher altitude...

blessings...
                                                 A.Lizard
====== 93 ====== mea saurus, mea saurus, mea maxima saurus! ====== 93 ======
                  (slogan contributed by Jessica McGeary)
Mail to me should be sent to:       |  There are no fnords in this sig file.
alizard%tweekco%boo@PacBell.COM     |  autoreply to address I posted this
     ^^^ preferred site ^^^         |  from only if you want to wait a
PacBell.COM!boo!tweekco!alizard     |  solstice or two for my answer.
alizard@seer.mystic.com(backup site)|              Kallisti!

you know, the political debate around here is frequently better than the ones
on dedicated political conferences I'm on...
From: ksm@abb-sc.abb-sc.com (Ashley)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Annoying, cloying "wann-be"s (was Pagan Bumper Stickers)
Date: 9 Nov 92 19:51:05 GMT
Organization: Kaos Laboratories


> My solution is simple:
>Talk religion and spirituality at them.  If they are looking for quick-fix
>magic, they will go away before I mention anything useful about magic.  This
>avoids me having to feel responsible for what they do with what I say.  Only
>the ones who've stayed through the "sermon" will learn any magic.  And by then,
>I *know* whether they're well intentioned or not.  This is not to say that the
>well*intentioned never do anything stupid.  It is a requirement to do at least
>one majorly stupid thing in the process of learning magic, in my experience.
>But the well-intentioned ones usually only mess themselves up, and come 
>screaming for you to help them fix anything which causes real problems.  Then
>I explain why we don't do that, and they have learned a useful lesson about 
>themselves and the nature of magic.  It isn't exactly easy on the teacher, but
>it produces great people.  (And that is the reward!)
> 
> 
>              Merry meet, merry part, merry meet again,
>                               Br'anArthur
> 
>Queer, Peculiar, and Wyrd! :-)



	Thank you for the first *constructive* note I've seen yet on this 
subject! I like your solution, it works well. As I posted before, I won't 
tell them anything unless it "feels" right. Other than that, send them to the 
book shelf for something that deals only with religion or philosophy. Saves 
me the time you devote to your lecture. And the Sibyl Leek book's title was 
"The Complete Art of Witchcraft" NOT "The Complete BOOK of Witchcraft". 
Apologies for the mistake! Any other reccomendations on safe books to send 
power obsessed people who want the ability to *zap* NOW to?

	I've noticed that a lot of these power hungry people seem to go 
chasing after Crowley sooner or later though. Nothing on the ol' "Great Beast", 
but he seems to be their favorite if they ever get around to doing anything 
serious. I guess he makes promises and if they can work through his materials, 
they must feel pretty proud of the accomplishment.


				- Ashley
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: lip@s1.gov (Loren I. Petrich)
Subject: Re: The truth about Tipper Gore (was:Re: the US elections...)
Organization: LLNL
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 22:42:30 GMT

In article <BxIHry.Krz@encore.com> aaldrich@encore.com (Al Aldrich) writes:
>ksm@abb-sc.abb-sc.com (Ashley) writes:
>[ long and educational lesson in oppression deleted ]

: things they would like to see wiped out. And this warning label would not 
: only have been put on albums by obscure finge musicans, but was targeted 
: for Michael Jackson (sexual references), Prince (sexual reference and 
: blasphemy), Madonna (sexual references), Fleetwood Mac and all members solo 
: efforts (Stevie Nicks's religion was judged objectionable), the list goes 
: on and on....

	Some of these objections seem strange. Michael Jackson? I
always thought he was a eunuch :-):-):-). Prince? Sex, yes, but
blasphemy? Madonna? They didn't accuse _her_ of blasphemy? After all,
it was she who commented that "crucifixes are sexy because there's a
naked man on them."

	I'm pretty surprised that they didn't take on opera. What fun
they would have had. :-)
From: cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Tipper Gore? (Re: the US elections...)
Date: 12 Nov 92 00:16:28 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of California, Irvine

In article <1992Nov11.231240.9470@s1.gov> lip@s1.gov (Loren I. Petrich) writes:
>
>	[On Madonna not being as good as Mae West and acting like
>	nothing but a slut]
>
>	Mae West may have been a very assertive woman, but a sex symbol?

She would routinely have these guys ten years younger than her falling
all over her in her movies (falling all over her for those standards).
Watch a little of them.  I don't know whether she was a sex symbol or
burlesque, but then I wonder the same thing about Madonna.  More young
women seem to like her than men.

Blessings,
Janis 
Xref: sparky alt.pagan:12756 alt.magick:5825
From: Tagi@cup.portal.com (Thyagi Morgoth NagaSiva)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan,alt.magick
Subject: Re: Santeria and Voodoun
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 92 11:23:21 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
  <1992Nov11.050453.8596@netcom.com>

I am taught that to fire with fire is to commit suicide.

I have unsubscribed to this thread.

Thyagi
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: pciszek@nyx.cs.du.edu (Paul Ciszek)
Subject: Re: Need information on herbs that will abort
Organization: University of Denver, Dept. of Math & Comp. Sci.
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 92 04:08:29 GMT

Hrmmm, I remember a rather ugly case in Colorado where a woman fataly
poisoned herself with an abortificant purchased in an herbal shop...
it tainted the image of herbalists for awhile.  Understand that what
you are doing is inducing a miscarriage; consuming a semi-toxic substance
that, if it does not kill you, will make you so ill that the pregnancy
terminates.
From: GC.GGG@forsythe.stanford.edu (Gwyn Gordon)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: raising children
Date: 4 Nov 1992 16:38:13 -0800
Organization: Stanford University
Distribution: usa
NNTP-Posting-Host: morrow.stanford.edu

In article <1d9hm9INNp35@manuel.anu.edu.au>,
Lubosh.Hanuska@anu.edu.au (Lubosh) writes:
>This is a problem of male adults who were raised in "problem families",
>and I don't deny the majority of problem families are male+female,
>because this type of family is still in a vast majority.

This is patently false. "Traditional" families make up LESS THAN 30%
of American families. Less. Than. 30. Percent.

This is not a majority.

Although they may be a majority in your dreams, this does not make
them such in real life.

>Please note - I take into consideration that there are opinion different
>than my own.

But do you take into consideration the fact that you massage the
facts to suit your opinion?

=gg
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.the.earth