HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Shaqeeqa)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: israel & hamas
Date: 31 Dec 92 08:17:14 GMT
Organization: University of Colorado at Denver

In article <42879@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> revans@euclid.ucsd.edu (Ron Evans) writes:
>In article <1483500312@igc.apc.org> cpr@igc.apc.org (Center for Policy Research) writes:
>
>>I don't see the reason why Palestinians should not demand the
>>demilitarization of Israel, as a measure of protecting their security.
>
>	And the Kurds should demand the demilitarization of
>	Turkey, Iran, and Iraq.

Of course they should demand it.  Why not?  Are you opposed to it, or
would you rather see thousands attacked and slaughtered because of
their exposure?  Why do you like to make such comments which try to
excuse the human rights issues on the basis that what we are asking
for (!) is somehow ridiculous?  Here I thought you supported Palestinian
rights, Ron.  Or is it that you are somehow uncertain where your true
loyalties stand?  (Maybe you love to drive us crazy ...)

Anisa


	"Find your sisters and brothers who can hear all the
	truth in what you say.  They can support you when you're
	on your way."	[Shaking The Tree]

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein)
Subject: Re: Can anyone answer a real quick, simple question?
Organization: NYSERNet, Inc.
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 04:40:41 GMT

cubsfan@camelot.bradley.edu (Michael Silverman) writes:

>The United Nations condemned Israeli expulsion of Palestinians from
>the Occupied Territories.

>My question...why did the UN not condemn the acts of terrorism
>which *led* to the expulsions?

For the same reason it passed the infamous "Zionism = Racism"
resolution-- anti-semitism.
-- 
Alan H. Stein   -----  AJIN   -----  astein@israel.nysernet.org
From: aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Shaqeeqa)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Can anyone answer a real quick, simple question?
Date: 24 Dec 92 10:25:48 GMT
Organization: University of Colorado at Denver

In article <cubsfan.724814873@camelot> cubsfan@camelot.bradley.edu (Michael Silverman) writes:
>The United Nations condemned Israeli expulsion of Palestinians from
>the Occupied Territories.
>
>My question...why did the UN not condemn the acts of terrorism
>which *led* to the expulsions?
>
>Can anyone (pro or anti -Israel) answer this?

The world is outraged when one Israeli is dead - but the deaths of
Palestinian children do not challenge anyone to condemn Israeli
actions.  But when you start deporting Palestinians because they
belong to a socio-religious party, then that is too big to hide or
wiggle out of.  As Hanan Ashrawi stated, you deal with individuals
on an individual basis - not condemn and expell masses of people
to try as a means of vindication.  This action proves, time and again,
that Israel is not accomplishing anything except to prove that it is
holds a reign of tyranny and oppression over the lives and destiny
of Palestinians - regardless of their beliefs.  Israel must learn
that it cannot break the spirit of Islam in the people, nor can it
break the resistance from the smallest child to the biggest man.


Anisa
	"What I carry in my heart brings us so close,
	yet so far apart."

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: fedimit@wisipc.weizmann.ac.il (Dan Nabutovsky)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Occupation
Date: 27 Dec 92 16:37:58 GMT
Organization: Weizmann Institute of Science, Computation Center

>And Syria is occupying Lebanon.
>And many people feel Britain is occupying Northern Ireland.
>And Serbia and Croatia are occupying Bosnia.
>And Turkey is occupying Cyprus.
>And, as Jake would say, the United States is occupying North America.
>And China is occupying Tibet.
>And India is occupying Kashmir.
>And Spain is occupying the Basque homeland.
>And there are all sorts of border disputes in Africa in which one
>	country claims the other is occupying part of its land.
>And, of course, border disputes among the former Soviet republics,
>	especially Azerbajan and Armenia.

   And Israel is occupying nothing.

   Judea, Samaria & Gaza were Israeli at least 3000 years.

   Dan.
From: aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Shaqeeqa)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: nazi beer gardens
Date: 24 Dec 92 23:41:22 GMT
Organization: University of Colorado at Denver

In article <1992Dec22.170731.22189@ncsu.edu> hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU (Brad Hernlem) writes:
> 
>> I don't support the deportations, Wayne, but the truth is that any other 
>> Western democratic nation would have acted identically.  Besides, who's 
>> laughing at Israel now save the Palestinians and the other Arab nations?
>> The Western world will always pay attention to Israel as a stabilizing 
>> force in the region especially when Egypt and other neighbors
>                                      ^^^^^
>> inevitably setup fundamentalist regimes with jihad-happy campers running
>             ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>!!!??!?!?

:-)  My sentiments, exactly!  :')

>I thought Mubarak's government was fighting the "fundamentalists".
>Attacks on foreign tourists, of late, are calculated to hurt Mubarak's
>government by cutting off tourist revenue. This is in an effort to
>achieve changes in Mubarak's SECULAR government. 

Yes, Egypt has been fighting 'fundamentalism' ever since the days
of Nasser.  Maybe Stephen could check out these statistics instead
of posting such nonsense.  Apart from that he might also do a little
research on the worldwide 'crackdown' on Islamic 'fundamentalism' (i.e.
radicalism to Western Eyes and followers of), especially in Syria,
Algeria, and Saudi Arabia.  I'll bet he thinks that Saudi Arabia is
an Islamic country though - which these type of posts only conclude
from such readers that they are, indeed, uninformed.

>Mubarak is one of the main people responsible for the latest claim that
>Iran is seeking to exert hegemony over the Middle East! He is very quick
>to blame what he sees as fundamentalists for many of the problems in the
>region. Your statement boggles my mind.

Yes, and not only that, but has had enough of an influence (as a
puppet to the United States) to cut off Islamic movements in the
entire region so as to reduce the 'threat' to his own government.
And it isn't simply that it is because it is based on secularism.
Mubarak strongly fears the elements of Islamic movements in his own
country and the overall effect it has on the people.  It all goes
in accordance to the world 'order' which Mubarak plays a major role
in.

As usual, you always hit the nail straight on the head, Brad.

Anisa

	"Find your sisters and brothers who can hear all the
	truth in what you say.  They can support you when you're
	on your way."	[Shaking The Tree]

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: kremer@taveng.enet.dec.com (Itzhak Kremer)
Subject: Re: Deportation vs. Murder
Followup-To: article 44218
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1993 12:12:14 GMT



This newsgroup has got to be one of the greatest collections of garbage
on the net. Marwan Gharaybeh's recent post is typical.  Not only did he
screw up his concise history of the Holy Land (we can't all be history
majors - can we? ) but he must have really been zonked out from his new
year's party to have written his conclusions.

1) Gharaybeh is proud that he can refute the great "black lie" that the
   Jews "WERE NOT THE FIRST TO BE IN PALESTINE". But who ever claimed
   that absurdity?
    
   Gharaybeh, there is a book called "the Bible". Most Jews and
   Christians have heard of it. Whether you believe in it or not, the
   Bible is the most authoritative book on what the Jews' claim is their
   right to the Land of Israel. Before you put your foot in your mouth
   again, try reading the Bible and you'll get a very clear picture of
   what we claim is our 'historical right'.  You just refuted a lie which
   you invented. BRAVO!
   
2) Yes, you're right "In those 3000 years a lot has changed" but if
   Palestinians can claim (proudly?) a linkage to those primitive,
   child-sacrificing pagan nations (Philistines, Caananites, etc.)  which
   even the Koran detests and which even you agree pre-date the Hebrews,
   then why do you see it as incomprehensible that we claim descendance
   from the original Hebrews?
   
3) I'd like to know what Jewish source you've got that claims we are a
   "race". I've heard Jews claim that we are a nation, culture, ethnic
   group and even religion but only the anti-semites call us a "race".
   Again try and read the Bible (you can probably get it in the language
   of your choice). I think you'll find it quite clear that the Jews are
   a nationality with their own set of religious laws and beliefs. A Jew
   who does not accept the Jewish laws is still a Jew just like an
   American who does not accept the constitution is still an American.
   You can have a religious Jew  and an atheist Jew and yes, believe it
   or not, even a Christian Jew, so Judaism is NOT simply a religion.
   (By the way, there are Black palestinians and blue-eyed palestinians
   as well - where'd they come from?).

4) Gharaybeh   writes:
  "In those 3000
   years several conversion were made to judaism and these conversions 
   cannot possibly give the right of the modern zionists to hunt down 10
   year old arab children for throwing stones ...."

   What gives the Israeli Army the right and OBLIGATION to "hunt down"
   stone-throwers is the right of the Israeli people to live in security.
   I certainly would not like to live in a country where even 10-year
   olds are given the freedom to stone and fire-bomb cars at will - would
   you?????
  
-Itzhak
  


Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: dfs@doe.carleton.ca (David F. Skoll)
Subject: POLITICS: Re: Israel must return the deportees!
Organization: Dept. of Electronics, Carleton University
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 16:35:31 GMT

Please note and respect the followup-to line.

In <531@owl.ukc.ac.uk> dat@ukc.ac.uk (D.A.Turner) writes:

>The deportations will simply fuel further violence.  I can tell  you  my
>reaction  to the deportations - I wanted to go out and punch the nearest
>Israeli.

Even if that Israeli happened to oppose the deportations?  Even if that
Israeli happened to have been living in England for years?  Sounds
like "collective punishment" to me.  Clearly illegal and unnaceptable. :-)

Seriously, if you can be provoked to this extreme by an action which really
has little effect on your day-to-day life, can't you see the extreme
provocation which Israel has had to endure from Hamas?  Kidnappings,
murder, a philosophy of war against all Jews - those seem unbearable
to me.  How would Britain handle the IRA in such circumstances.

>David Turner
>(A British Jew who does NOT support Israel)

Yeah, yeah, we know already.

--
                     |         | "Step up and shake the hand
David F. Skoll       | ||||||| |  Of someone you can't stand,
|_ _ _  __   __ _ __ |  \\V//  |  You can tolerate him if you try..."
 / |  | |_|   | |  | |  __|__  |  -- Tom Lehrer, "National Brotherhood Week"
_____|________________________________________________________________________
From: revans@euclid.ucsd.edu (Ron Evans)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: israel & hamas
Date: 27 Dec 92 08:16:47 GMT

In article <1483500312@igc.apc.org> cpr@igc.apc.org (Center for Policy Research) writes:

>I don't see the reason why Palestinians should not demand the
>demilitarization of Israel, as a measure of protecting their security.


	And the Kurds should demand the demilitarization of
	Turkey, Iran, and Iraq.

-- 
Ron Evans (revans@math.ucsd.edu)
From: YZKCU@CUNYVM.BITNET (Yaakov Kayman)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Palestinian deportees turned back by Lebanese
Date: 28 Dec 92 22:06:02 GMT
Organization: City University of New York/ University Computer Center

In article <4750@copper.Denver.Colorado.EDU>,
aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Shaqeeqa) says:
>
>In article <214@jcpltyo.JCPL.CO.JP> ohayon@jcpltyo.JCPL.CO.JP (Tsiel Ohayon)
>writes:
>>
>>....
>>
>(or is this another attempt at enlightening us Arab heathens, oh Israeli
>master?)  :'}

Arab heathens? Israeli masters? Perhaps Ms. Aldoubosh ;- will inform us
what's going on here?

>Anisa

Yaaqov (M.?)  (yzkcu@cunyvm.cuny.edu on the Internet)
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:23940 talk.politics.soviet:9924 soc.culture.greek:11795 soc.culture.europe:10729 soc.rights.human:4645
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,soc.rights.human
Followup-To: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: Re: The Greek authorities deny even the existence of a Turkish minority
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 92 21:44:23 EST
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world

In article <BznF6o.I5@cs.columbia.edu> vh@cs.columbia.edu (Vasileios Hatzivassiloglou) writes:

>>The Greek authorities deny even the existence of a Turkish minority. 
>>They pursue the same denial in connection with the Macedonians of 
>>Greece. The Greeks deny the existence of the Turks there - despite the 

>That should make my point on the original article pretty clear. When you
>deny something pretty much obvious, like the Turkish/Muslim minority, you
>lose your credibility to the outside world. As a result, you get claims

That's why the Greek governments must be held to account for the 
sub-human conditions of the Turkish minority living in the Western 
Thrace under the brutal Greek domination. The religious persecution, 
cultural oppression and economical ex-communication applied to the 
Turkish population in that area are the dimensions of the human rights 
abuse widespread in Greece.

Wait, there is more.

    "Torture in Greece: Hidden Reality"

Case 1: Kostas Andreadis and Dimitris Voglis.

...Andreadis' head was covered with a hood and he was tortured
by falanga (beating on the soles of the feet), electric shocks,
and was threatened with being thrown out of the window. An 
official medical report clearly documented this torture....

Case 2: Horst Bosniatzki, a West German Citizen.

...At midnight he was taken to the beach, chains were put to his 
feet and he was threatened to be thrown to the sea. He was dragged
along the beach for about a 1.5 Km while being punched on the 
head and kidneys...Back on the police station, he was beaten
on the finger tips with a thin stick until one of the fingertips
split open....

Case 3: Torture of Dimitris Voglis.

Case 4: Brothers Vangelis (16) and Christos Arabatzis (12),
        Vasilis Papadopoulos (13), and Kostas Kiriazis (13).

Case 5: Torture of Eight Students at Thessaloniki Police
        Headquarters.


Serdar Argic

                     'This war quickly developed into one of extermination. 
                      We closed the roads and mountain passes that might 
                      serve as ways of escape for the Tartars [Turks] and 
                      then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.arabic
From: astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein)
Subject: Re: The Hadith about Muslims killing the Jews / Hamas vs. Sunnah
Organization: NYSERNet, Inc.
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1992 22:54:01 GMT

mmdh@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (Mazen Mokhtar) writes:

>>First of all, do not compare Israelis to Nazis.

>  Why not? The comparison is quite valid in this case.

To even suggest a comparison reveals both ignorance and anti-semitism.

>Both are oppressors
>who deny the rights of people;

It was the Jews who accepted the second partition of Palestine in
1948, the Arabs who rejected it in order to destroy the Jewish state.

It was Jordan which attacked Israel in 1967, and then refused to
negotiate when Israel begged it to take the territories back in return
for peace.

>>This is flagrantly anti-Semitic and offensive.

>  I am a semite an I am not biased against Jews. I am only an opponent of
>oppression.

Could have fooled me.

>>Furthermore, there is absolutely NO basis for such a comparison. Israel is
>>the moral opposite of Nazi Germany in EVERY way.

>  This subject is certainly debatable. After all, both of them are based on
>the assumption that a certain nationality is "chosen" or better than the rest.

That statement shows ignorance of the meaning of "chosen" people.

>>Secondly, Israeli soldiers are not there to kill Palestinians, as you
>>claim. They are there to protect fellow Jews.

>  A nice claim belied by the facts of history. If my brother takes my
>neighbour's home and kicks him out of it, and I protect my brother against
>attempts by my neighbour to regain his home, am I there to oppress, or am I
>there to protect my brother?

Except for the first sentence, that paragraph is perfectly correct,
although absolutely irrelevant.
-- 
Alan H. Stein   -----  AJIN   -----  astein@israel.nysernet.org
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:24527 soc.culture.arabic:6169
From: marwang@staccato.rutgers.edu (Marwan Gharaybeh)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.arabic
Subject: Re: The Hadith about Muslims killing the Jews / Hamas vs. Sunnah
Date: 2 Jan 93 20:48:05 GMT
Followup-To: talk.politics.mideast
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

hm@cs.brown.edu (Harry Mamaysky) writes:

>In article <1992Dec17.223519.29718@cbfsb.cb.att.com>, 
mmdh@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (Mazen Mokhtar) writes:

>|> ... I don't see what the
>|> problem is. Should the French have refrained from killing Nazis?
>|> 
>|> Mazen Mokhtar

>First of all, do not compare Israelis to Nazis. This is
>flagrantly anti-Semitic and offensive.

Harry ... I totally agree with what you're saying ... On behalf of
Mazen I apologize to all the Nazis on this net (if there are any)
for comparing them to the vicious Zionists. Probably Mazen did not
realize how offensive it is to compare any"thing" to the Zionists.

>Harry.

--Marwan
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:24547 talk.politics.soviet:10165 soc.culture.greek:12002 soc.culture.europe:10965 soc.history:10495 soc.culture.soviet:11753 soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna:1062 soc.culture.croatia:305 soc.culture.turkish:13741
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,soc.rights.human
Followup-To: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: "Sipa of Delco" and "The ASALA/SDPA/ARF Terrorism Triangle".
Date: Sun, 03 Jan 93 18:23:59 EST
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world

In article <199301030508.AA15053@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com> c23st@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com (Spiros Triantafyllopoulos) writes:

>Economics have little to do with all this. Both Mr. Mutlu/Argic and 
>Mr. Cosar have indicated with their actions in the past and present that
>'the show will go on' regardless of personal costs. 

You don't get it - do you? Armenian government got away with the 
genocide of 2.5 million Turkish men, women and children and is 
enjoying the fruits of that genocide. You, and those like you, 
will not get away with the genocide's cover-up. During World War 
I when Ottoman Empire was in a war of death or life, the Armenians 
started a revolt against the Ottoman state, collaborated with her 
enemies and subjected the innocent and defenseless Turkish civilians 
to wide-spread and general massacre, and genocide.

However, despite the genocidal policy of the x-Soviet Armenian 
Government, during the 78 years following the genocide, in a small 
portion of Turkish historic lands there exists a Turkish Karabag in 
the diaspora, the dispersed Turkish and Kurdish communities lifting 
themselves from their refugee status, have become strongholds of 
Turkish and Kurdish culture and national aspirations. They have, 
by their existence, transformed the Muslim Question into a political 
demand - the Turkish and Kurdish Case.

...On this occasion, we once again reiterate the unquestioned 
justice of the restitution of Turkish and Kurdish rights and...

We demand that the x-Soviet Armenian Government admit its 
responsibility for the Turkish and Kurdish Genocide, render 
reparations to the Muslim people, and return the land to its 
rightful owners. The recognition of the Genocide has become an 
issue which cannot be delayed further, and it is imperative that 
artificial obstacles created for political manipulations be removed.

Serdar Argic

                     'This war quickly developed into one of extermination. 
                      We closed the roads and mountain passes that might 
                      serve as ways of escape for the Tartars [Turks] and 
                      then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: ifaz706@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu
Subject: Re: Data
Organization: University of Texas @ Austin
Date: 29 Dec 92 00:35:01 CST

In article <1hm0u6INNmvi@manuel.anu.edu.au>, bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay) writes:
> In article 1@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu, ifaz706@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu (Noam Tractinsky) writes:
> 
+>	Number of deaths since the begining of the intifadah, as
+>	reported in Ha'aretz, December 11, 1992, based on IDF 
+>	data:
> 
> 
+>			    	       	    KILLED BY
+>				Israelies    Palestinians   Total
>                                 
+>		Israelies           -             126+        126
> 	
+>	DEATHS	Palestinians     831 (923)*    809 (675)*    1640
> 
+>		Total		   831            935        1766
> 
+>	* Betzelem's data
+>	+ 48 in the territories, 78 within Israel
> 	
> Thank you for this information.  One thing that isn't clear about
> numbers like this is how the deaths are classified.  Take the 126
> "Israelies killed by Palestinians".  Is it supposed to be all such 
> killings, those with some political motive (according to who?) or 
> only those somehow connected to the Intifadah?  


	I cannot provide an authoritative answer. To the best of my
	(layman's) knowledge, murders are classified (among other
	things) according to motives. I believe the data above 
	include cases classified as murders with "nationalist" 
	motives by the Israeli police. In most cases classifying 
	those cases is very easy. 

	I'm not aware of many cases in which Jews were killed by 
	Arabs (or vice versa) in Israel for non-political reasons.
                                               

> Incidentally, averaged over time, the total rate is similar to
> the murder rate in the US.


	When people here express concern about security in Israel
	I use to compare the murder rate in Jerusalem with that of
	Austin, TX, a relatively "safe" city similar in size to 
	Jerusalem. They are very surprised. I attribute much of 
	this misperception to the "vividness" effect produced by 
	the media coverage of the mideast.



Noam



Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:24057 talk.politics.soviet:9975 soc.culture.greek:11853 soc.culture.europe:10782 soc.rights.human:4663 soc.culture.bulgaria:2017
From: revans@euclid.ucsd.edu (Ron Evans)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.arabic
Subject: Hamas
Date: 30 Dec 92 23:54:17 GMT
Followup-To: talk.politics.mideast

<1ht1nmINNrkh@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> cl056@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Hamaza H. Salah) writes:

>hamas targets its attacks against soldiers not civilians. 

	The attack on Pearl Harbor was also directed primarily
	against soldiers.  

-- 
Ron Evans (revans@math.ucsd.edu)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: ilyess@ECE.Concordia.CA (Ilyess Bdira)
Subject: Israeli quote of the year.
Organization: ECE - Concordia University
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1992 21:05:03 GMT

In article <1992Dec27.161716.19989@wisipc.weizmann.ac.il> fedimit@wisipc.weizmann.ac.il (Dan Nabutovsky) writes:


   ISRAEL IS TOO LITTLE NOW TO GET SOME PART OF IT TO ENEMIES.
                       *****


=============================================================
Modified Murphy's first law of realistic probability:
If it can happen, it will happen...
Unless of course "it" is a good thing.
::::::::::::::********************************:::::::::::::::
Ilyess Ben Ali Bdira    Montreal Quebec  Canada
E-mail ilyess@ECE.concordia.CA, benali@alcor.concordia.CA
::::::::::::::********************************:::::::::::::::