HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: carrato@acsu.buffalo.edu (Michael Carrato)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.football.pro
Subject: Re: What is "superiority"? (Was: AFC vs. NFC drivel)
Date: 2 Jan 93 08:55:24 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: UB

mzimmers@netcom.com (Michael Zimmers) writes:

>In article <C046D1.33E@acsu.buffalo.edu> carrato@acsu.buffalo.edu (Michael Carrato) writes:

> [Mike Z. outlines 5 possible criteria:]

>1. The NFC has produced superior conference champions.  I don't think
>   anyone has a disagreement here.

Agreed.

>2. The NFC has produced superior playoff teams.  I have a gut feel that
>   this is true, but I can't back it up with other than anecdotal
>   evidence.  I'm not sure how this could be measured, either.

I am not convinced of this. Why don't we compare interconference games
between playoff teams over the last 8 years? Has this been done already?

>3. The median NFC team is better than the median AFC team.  I have
>   no idea whether this is true or not (in fact, Carrato says it
>   isn't above).  I also don't care, as whether the Cardinals and
>   Packers could whip the Browns and Colts in The Battle of the Mediocre
>   doesn't support my notion of conference superiority, and isn't
>   that interesting in its own right.

No, I don't care much for the median. I only referred to the mean and max.

>4. The mean NFC team is better than the mean AFC team.  (This compares
>   the two conferences top-to-bottom.)  IMHO, an absolutely meaningless
>   stat for superiority measurement.

Meaningless? I wouldn't say that. The 'mean' is directly correlated
with the overall interconference record, so I don't think it is 
completely useless.

Even the 'meaningless' interconference games are worth something, IMHO.
If one conference has a few really bad teams that "bring down" the mean,
then the better teams in that conference benefit from playing those teams
more.

>So, the questions are:

>- Is #2 true and by what measure?

I think #2 may be true but not nearly as much as NFC proponents say.
I've seen claims that the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th seeds in the NFC would
have no trouble beating the #1 AFC team the last few years, and that
is ridiculous.

Furthermore, using #1 alone to argue overall conference superiority is
absurd.

I don't really want to debate this, because I think it is, for the
most part, pointless. I just wanted to clarify a few points...

By the way, I can't argue with overall NFC superiority THIS year.
The NFC has dominated for the most part this year (the overall record
strongly favors the NFC). But I have yet to see compelling evidence
of overall superiority during the period of the last EIGHT years.

(Wouldn't it be funny if the AFC finally won one and we suddenly
flip-flopped our arguments? :-))


Mike C

>-- 
>Michael Zimmers                                    |  Home:  408 996 1984
>SoftHelp                                           |  Work:  408 996 1965
>Software Solutions for Open Systems                |  Data:  408 996 1974
Newsgroups: rec.sport.football.pro
From: heim@vms.macc.wisc.edu (JOHN HEIM	)
Subject: Re: Bad Boy Green Bay Bob
Organization:  University of Wisconsin Academic Computing Center
Date: 28 DEC 92 16:05:02    

In article <BzzJFs.FJ6@ns1.nodak.edu>, sivaram@plains.NoDak.edu (The Purple Bleeder ) writes...

>First we on rsfp witnessed the battle between Eagles fans and
>the Cowboy fans. Then it was the Bills and the fish and
>now it is the Vikes and the packers.
                             ^ Freudian slip?  

The only good thing about this is that it cuts way down on posts 
saying "How come all I ever see are posts about NFC/AFC East teams?"
:-)

>When pot shots are taken on each other  by rival fans, I thought
>that it is only restricted to the game and nothing personal.
>But I am starting to detect some real *animosity* here.

Yeah, I'm trying to do a 180 and start cheering for the Vikes now.  
It's a tough adjustment after hoping they lose for 6 weeks.

>Come on guys let's cut it out.....
>I hereby declare a truce between Vikes and Pack fans.
>let's get on with the game.

Bring on the 'Skins.  If the Vikings play like they did against the 
Packers they will win.

JGH
From: dsj@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Daniel Scott Janecek)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.football.pro
Subject: Re: Brister Sacks the Steelers!
Date: 21 Dec 1992 22:54:27 GMT
Organization: University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
Reply-To: dsj@csd4.csd.uwm.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.89.7.4
Originator: dsj@csd4.csd.uwm.edu

From article <1992Dec21.140254.27750@walter.bellcore.com>, by pbf@inoms.bellcore.com (Phil Franklin):

> The game with the Vikings was an intense defensive struggle, where the
> Vikes' overall better offensive performance was balanced by their
> mistakes -- three fumbles and a muffed snap on a short field goal.
> Pittsburgh had some reasonable drives, but couldn't generate any
> offense inside the Vikings 30-yard line.  And what chances they had,
> Brister chose to squander.
> 

	Not to start any flames here (but Im not sorry if I do:), BUT,
a while ago, several Pittsburg fans were arguing with several
Minnesota fans on which defense (and team) was better. Not only does
this game prove it (Minn. SHOULD have BLOWN the away), but it also
DISPROVES a point that one Pittsburg fan tried to make. His point WAS:
(to paraphrase): "Minnesota is not good because they play in the
easiest conference in football". Hmmm, What is Pittsburg's record
agains the NFC Central division this year (NOT a trick question). It
seems to me that they are 0-3!!! They have lost to Minnesota, Green
Bay, and Chicago. Minnesota is 6-1 (with one last game to go) against
their rivals in the NFC Central Division. Good thing Pittsburg is not
in this division, or they would have never made the playoffs!! Talking
about squander chances- LOOK at Minnesota, do not complain that
Pittsburg 'SHOULD' have won! Maybe his 'squanders' were good defense
on the part of Minnesota perhaps? Nah, too easy. While I will continue
to believe that Minnesota SHOULD have BLOWN out Pittsburg, I give
credit to them for stopping Minnesota's advances. It was a defensive
battle, and a GREAT one at that!

		

			Congrats Minnesota!

				dan
Newsgroups: rec.sport.football.pro
From: mzimmers@netcom.com (Michael Zimmers)
Subject: Re: It wasn't Pretty (49ers WON)
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1992 17:40:12 GMT

In article <1992Dec25.162027.15464@cbnewsk.cb.att.com> lor@cbnewsk.cb.att.com (edward.lor) writes:

>And BTW, Zimmers, Young's NFL career is not just starting. His record was
>1-4 in 1985, 2-14 in 1986. Doesn't look like he could have done better with
>the Seahawks either.

You're responding to me at the *end* of a reply to *another* poster?!  I
guess I don't rate anymore...

Point taken about Young; I oversimplified.  The point I was trying to make
is that it's way, way too early to start comparing him to Danny White, and
that career comparisons may *never* be meaningful for Young due to his
time in the USFL and riding the pines in the Stick.  No matter how successful
he is from here on, he'll always have abridged career numbers.
-- 
Michael Zimmers                                    |  Home:  408 996 1984
SoftHelp                                           |  Work:  408 996 1965
Software Solutions for Open Systems                |  Data:  408 996 1974
From: jasmith@admin1.memst.edu (John)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.football.pro
Subject: 49ers/Cowboys :QB problems? Thoughts?
Date: 29 Dec 92 14:42:58 -0600
Organization: Memphis State University

            Detroit-San Francisco 7-6 the first half with S.Young
      and 17-0 the second half behind J.Montana.  Is the resurection
      of Joe Montana as good as 49er fans want to believe it to be.
      Could a better game by Joe Montana prove to be the 49ers down 
      fall.  What happens if S.Young is having a bad day against
      at team.  Do they yank Young and bring in Montana?  If they do
      that not going to be good for Young's confidence and if he start
      playing bad he might just start making more mistakes than usual
      trying to make something happen because of the pressure of Montana.
      Earlier this season, Young has had some tough games where he has 
      lead the 49ers back from defeat.  San Francisco probably would have
      been better off if they would have lost last Monday night under
      Joe Montana.  49ers could crack under pressure, because they have 
      too many great quarterbacks.  I'm not a 49er fan, but would like to 
      know what some of the 49ers fans think about the Montana/Young situation?

      I watched the 49ers game Monday night against Detroit. Barry Sanders
      looked good, he rushed for 100+ yards.  I'm not a Barry Sanders fan,
      either.  But am curious about the 49ers defensive.  How do you 
      49er fans think your defensive matchs up with the Cowboys.  Do you think
      Sanders had a great day or an average day against the 49ers?  How do 
      you think they'll do against Emmitt Smith?  Do you think he'll run
      loose through your secondary like Sanders did?

      I'm a Cowboy fan.  I'm looking forward to a match up with the 49ers,
      But knowing our secondary is the best against the pass this year,
      I fear what Young could do to the Cowboys.  I don't think Dallas will
      have any problems running or passing the ball, because they haven't had
      any all year long.  They've shut down the run pretty good, so I can see 
      San Francisco beating them on the ground.  How do some of you 49er fans
      feel about your team?  Do you think they've got a chance against Dallas,
      Do you think that eiter teams likely to win the game, or Do you think
      the 49ers will put Dallas in there place like Philadelphia did earlier 
      this season? 
Newsgroups: rec.sport.football.pro
From: gary@colossus.cgd.ucar.edu (Gary Strand)
Subject: Ed Lor
Organization: Climate and Global Dynamics Division/NCAR, Boulder, CO
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 15:36:41 GMT


  Psst - he ain't no Patriots fan.

  Hint: His fave team used to play in Boston, much like the Pats did. That's
  why he's so high on the NFC East and the NFC.

--
Gary Strand                      Opinions stated herein are mine alone and are
strandwg@ncar.ucar.edu            not representative of NCAR, UCAR, or the NSF
Newsgroups: rec.sport.football.pro
From: gidi@Hilbert.Stanford.EDU (Gidi Avrahami)
Subject: No Repeating Div Champs
Organization: Brotherhood Of Breath
Distribution: na
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1992 18:03:21 GMT


DID YOU KNOW... that no divisional champ from last year has
repeated this year?  And did you know that this is the FIRST
TIME that this happend since the 1970 NFL/AFL merger?

Here is a list of divisional champs that repeated from the
previous season:

1992	-
1991	Buf
1990	NYG SF Buf
1989	SF Buf
1988	Chi SF
1987	Chi SF Clev Den
1986	Chi Clev
1985	Chi Mia
1984	Wash SF Mia Pitt
1983*	Wash Mia Rdrs		\ In the strike season of 82, the standings
1982*	Mia Cin			/ were by conference.  I refered to the
1981	SD			\ top team from each division as the champ.
1980	SD
1979	Dal LA Pitt
1978	Dal Minn LA Pitt Den
1977	Dal Minn LA Balt Pitt
1976	Minn LA Balt Pitt Oak
1975	SL Minn LA Pitt Oak
1974	Minn LA Mia Oak
1973	Mia Oak
1972	SF Mia
1971	Dal Minn SF

(Data courtesy of wuarchive.wustl.edu, /pub/nfl/records.)

Newsgroups: rec.sport.football.pro
From: pboxrud@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Paul D Boxrud)
Subject: Re: Roger Craig on George Seifert
Organization: The Ohio State University
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 01:44:27 GMT

I think his record should be 54-13 not 54-3.

Paul
Newsgroups: rec.sport.football.pro
From: lwn@sei.cmu.edu (Louis Nedz)
Subject: Re: Immaculate Reception---NOT!!!
Organization: Software Engineering Institute
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1992 10:58:45 EST

                  
After the Immaculate Reception occurred, one of the officials did go to
the dugout and pick up the phone (in fact John Madden has the actual phone
in his possession). But he didn't ask how many security police there were,
he spoke to the head of all the officials for some assistance in making 
the call. He was then told that it was his call to make as he saw fit.
Consequently, he called it a touchdown.      There was, however, a popular
joke that resulted from the situation. Being very out of the ordinary for
an official to pick up a phone before making a call on a play, there was 
a lot of speculation, tainted with sarcasm, as to what the conversation 
might be about.  It was said that the official, knowing that the play was
no good, wanted to find out how many security police were available to
control the mob. When the voice on the other end of the phone said there
were only SIX, the official immediatly turned to the field, putting his
arms straight up, and said "'6'for Pittsburgh".   But that story is a
complete fallacy.
But the question still remains, "Was it a good play or not?"  
We'll never know for sure.   I will say this though. The first controversy
of the play, did Frenchy Fuqua touch the ball last before it headed up field
toward Franco Harris?  I say no. I can't believe anyone could deflect a ball
with that much momentum when his body was moving in the opposite direction
(especially since the only part of Frenchy's body near the ball was his hand).
He may have touched it first but Jack Tatum touched it last.  As for the
second controversy, did the ball touch the ground before it was caught?
That will always remain a mystery.

                                                     LOU
  
Newsgroups: rec.sport.football.pro
From: petersen@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Julie Petersen)
Subject: Re: Green Coach of Year? I don't think so.
Followup-To: rec.sport.football.pro
Organization: Chicago IL
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 11:39:48 GMT

In article <1992Dec23.094159.10069@walter.cray.com>, dpp@cray.com (David
Peterschmidt) wrote:

>                      1991    1992
> Green (Vikings)      8-8     10-5
> Marchibroda (Colts)  1-15     8-7
> Holmgren (Packers)   4-12     9-6
> Ross (Chargers)      4-12(?) 10-5
> Cowher (Steelers)    4-12(?) 10-5
> 
> I don't recall the Steelers and Chargers exact records from last year, but I don't
> think either finished better than 4-12. 

I don't know for sure either, but I don't think the Steelers were
anywhere near 4-12. I think they actually came close to making the
playoffs...  I could be way wrong.

__________________________________________________________________________
Jim Petersen         petersen@casbah.acns.nwu.edu          jp@darkstar.com

                If mercy's in business I wish it for you-        
             More than just ashes when your dreams come true.
Newsgroups: rec.sport.football.pro
From: douthit@convex.com (Ronnie Douthit)
Subject: Re: Are the Falcons really that lame?
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 16:00:11 GMT
Organization: Engineering, CONVEX Computer Corp., Richardson, Tx., USA
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

jpglori@srv.PacBell.COM (JOHN) writes:

>Seems like the Falcons are MNF's 90lb weaklings,
>cream puffs, pushovers, jellfish and you add
>the rest.

Whats the matter John, can't you give the Cowboys some credit.  Did you give
the 9ers any credit when they blew them out on Monday night ?

Anyway, we know the Cowboys won because of bad officiating :^)

BTW, thanks for helping me draw the rath of the football gods.


		-Ron (See ya in Candlestick) D.
Newsgroups: rec.sport.football.pro
From: lor@cbnewsk.cb.att.com (edward.lor)
Subject: Re: Hey Ed Lor, Bills 4-0 vs NFC, one more NFC team to beat
Organization: AT&T
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 18:56:22 GMT

In article <1992Dec22.175359.25625@equalizer.cray.com> mcs@fps.com (Mike Sanfratello) writes:
>>
>Get real.  You've just been mine.
On what lessons? not able to refute a claim because having no clue to make 
a pick in the dilemma? 

Yep, I guess I have to learn from you....

-- 
                                          Edward Lor
                                          lor@cbnewsk.att.com
                                          
Newsgroups: rec.sport.football.pro
From: statz@gagme.chi.il.us (Louis B. Del Boccio)
Subject: ** Week #17 from the STATZ **
Originator: statz@gagme
Organization: Gagme Public Access UNIX, Chicago, Illinois.
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 03:35:02 GMT



INDEX === sap --> s.tatz a.ction p.oints predicted score.
          RS  --> actual score.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~*~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~*~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
|            sap * RS  |            sap * RS  |            sap * RS |
| K.C. -7.5 = 20 * 21  | T.B.      = 17 * 14  | Buff      = 21 * 20 |
| NY.G      = 19 * 35  | S.F. -20  = 24 * 21  | N.O. -3   = 16 * 20 |
|                      |                      |                     |
|----------------------+----------------------+---------------------|
|                      |                      |                     |
| Hou  -1.5 = 20 * 17  | Rams      = 17 * 13  | Minn      = 17 *  6 |
| Clev      = 19 * 14  | G.B. -6.5 = 24 * 28  | Pits -1   = 23 *  3 |
|                      |                      |                     |
|----------------------+----------------------+---------------------|
|                      |                      |                     |
| N.E.      = 16 * 10  | Phoe      = 23 * 13  | Wash      = 21 * 13 |
| Cinn -4.5 = 26 * 20  | Indy -2.5 = 20 * 16  | Phil -3   = 23 * 17 |
|                      |                      |                     |
|----------------------+----------------------+---------------------|
|                      |                      |                     |
| S.D. -3   = 17 *  6  | Seat      = 17 *  6  | Chi       = 19 *  3 |
| Raiders   = 24 * 14  | Den  -9   = 21 * 10  | Det  -2.5 = 24 * 16 |
|                      |                      |                     |
|----------------------+----------------------+----------------------
|  ( Sun-night )       | ( Mon-night )        |
| NY.J      = 16 * 17  | Dall -7   = 27 * 41  |
| Mia  -11  = 24 * 19  | Atla      = 24 * 17  |
|                      |                      |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Please send any comments or suggestions to

{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}
{}                                                                {}
{}  *-----=====*****+++++>>>>> STATZ <<<<<+++++*****=====-----*   {}
{}                                                                {}
{}  statz@uumeme.chi.il.us                  Louis B. Del Boccio   {}
{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}
-- 
[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
[]                                                                []
[]  *----=====*****+++++>>>>  STATZ  <<<<<++++++******======----* []
[]                                                                []
[]  statz@gagme.chi.il.us                   Louis B. Del Boccio   []
[]                                                                []
[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
Newsgroups: rec.sport.football.pro
From: solomon@chaos.utexas.edu (Thomas Solomon)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.football.pro
Subject: Views of a Redskins fan (was Re: Eagles Report)
Date: 24 Dec 92 15:29:30 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Center for Nonlinear Dynamics, University of Texas at Austin
In-reply-to: jmd@cbnewsm.cb.att.com's message of 22 Dec 92 01:00:47 GMT


In article <1992Dec22.010047.29164@cbnewsm.cb.att.com> jmd@cbnewsm.cb.att.com (joseph.m.dakes) writes:

   What a game!  Decided on the last play of the game with the Skins
   on the Eagles 4-yard line.  And it was even closer than that, a
   finger tip closer.  Everybody who saw the highlights saw Eric Allen
   knock the ball away at the end.  But the ball was able to be batted
   down because one of the members of the GANG GREEN front tipped the
   Rypien pass.  It slowed it down just enough for Allen to come over
   and make the play.

I agree - that was a fantastic game.  Obviously, I would have preferred
if Allen hadn't tipped the ball.  But I have to hand it to the Eagles -
when it counted, they came up with the big play and pulled it out.
Two years ago, when the Eagles were coached by the Anti-Lombardi, I
would have rather eaten barbed wire than have the 'skins lose to
Philly.  But with Kotite as coach, the Eagles are no longer the
agents of evil, so I can handle the loss.

As a 'skins fan, I saw some encouraging signs in the game.  True,
Ryp made some critical mistakes, but he also showed a little of what
he had last year.  It was nice to see a successful long pass play
(how many times this year has Ryp missed the open man down field?).
And that last drive was one of the best drives that Ryp has ever
engineered.  Even on that last play:  Ryp was foiled on his attempted
roll-out (Reggie White, I believe, got in his way), but he managed
to adjust and find an open man in the endzone.  Even with the ball
being tipped at the line, it still almost made it to Clark.  It
took a complete effort by the Eagles to prevent the touchdown.

As far as this weekend is concerned:  I don't want to consider
possibilities for the 'skins if they lose to the Raiders.  In my
opinion, if they don't beat the Raiders at home, then they don't
deserve to make the play-offs.  (If they lose on Saturday, I will
watch Green Bay-Minn., but I won't be too upset if GB wins.)  That
said, the 'skins should easily win the game on Saturday.  This leaves
open the possibility of missing out in a 3-way tie-breaker, which
would piss me off.  The 'skins seem to have a knack for finding ways
to miss the play-offs with a 10-6 record.  Anyway, we'll see.

Tom Solomon
From: tobias@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Steve Tobias)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.football.pro
Subject: Re: AFC vs. NFC drivel
Date: 29 Dec 92 17:37:35 GMT
Reply-To: tobias@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Steve Tobias)
Distribution: usa
Organization: Carderock Division, NSWC, Bethesda, MD

In rec.sport.football.pro, gidi@Hilbert.Stanford.EDU (Gidi Avrahami) writes:
>So, if we go by your rule, we must also count all the times that
>Denver, Miami and Oakland beat Pittsburgh and Cleveland in the AFC
>playoffs, no?  Why, all of a sudden Denver's record against the NFC
>looks quite decent.
>And the 1-15 Colts of last year -- what a pathetic bunch of NFC losers!
>Oops, this just in.  Pittsburgh, Cleveland and the Colts were never in
>the NFC!  They were in the NFL (with an ell) and moved to the AFC
>after the merger.  Tsk, tsk.  You'll have to find some other nit to
>pick.

	    Any unbiased observer would have to admit that the NFC
(excuse me Mr Anal Retentive, make that NFL) teams who moved to the
AFC/AFL (are you happy now?) were basically NFC/NFL teams for several
years after their move. By the early 80s, turnover being what it is
with players and coaches, the Browns/Steelers/Colts (if I left any out,
I'm sure you'll correct me!) lost whatever distinctions one could make
between the two leagues/conferences.
					   Steve
Newsgroups: rec.sport.football.pro
From: gidi@Hilbert.Stanford.EDU (Gidi Avrahami)
Subject: Re: TV  (was Re: 'Twas NBC Re: Raiders vs. Redskins...)
Organization: Brotherhood Of Breath
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1992 22:41:27 GMT

hbishop@ttsi.lonestar.org (Huett Bishop) writes:
>Is there some rule about the home market for the home team not being able
>to see both games in a double header?

Yes.