Organization: Penn State University
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 21:03:48 EDT
From: Tim Bieling <QAA@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: prolife alert: new poll figures

In article <CHRISTIA%92083019014171@ASUACAD.BITNET>, KSTE@PURCCVM.BITNET (Kerry
Stephenson) says:
>
>Frustrated Tim:

Kerry - you understood my feelings quite right.

>
>You have misidentified what the culture war is about.  The cultural
>divide is between those who hold stubbornly to the notion that
>one should stand firm for what's right, and those who refuse to
>acknowledge that anything can be *wrong*.

The difficulty with this position is *who* is "right"?  I agree that
there is a right and wrong, but my definition is based on love, not
a 2000 year old book being mis-interpreted.

>
>One side's central organizing principle is the notion of rights
>(about which we have much debated here).  This side has determined
>that all things are good, providing they do not cause direct harm
>to another human being.  The other side says that it does not matter
>whether someone gets hurt, some things are simply *wrong*.

No - one side has understood that there is a broader definition
of morality, the other side has a narrow definition which is based
on ancient social code, and is unwilling to budge from that position.

>There is an absolute morality.  One side claims to know it, the other
>claims to know that there is no such thing.

Bullshit! (I AM sorry - but a statement like the above is ridiculous)
Morality is and can be flexible, but to assume that "the other side"
as no sense of morals is patently false.

>
>As Christians, we must dedicate our lives, our hearts, our spirits, our
>*everything* to Jesus.  For all of us, that means forsaking ideas,
>concepts, people, and things we once held dear, and giving them over
>to Him.  For some, it means admitting to a sin once believed to be
>an unchageable internal characteristic.  But the Lord's message is
>clear:  if there is *anything* you value more than me, you do not
>love me.  God's first command is to stay away from idols.  If that
>idol is your ego, your love interest, your behavior, your lifestyle,
>your family, your *anything*, it must go, no matter the cost.
>
>We must stand with Jesus, no matter who says otherwise.  We must
>answer to Him alone.  No government, no society, no culture,
>no philosophical system can be used as an excuse to permit us to
>do otherwise.

You speak of Jesus and how we should follow his teachings - ok,
please give me citations of Jesus's words condeming homosexuality.
He makes no such reference (if you feel otherwise, please give
me concise citations).

>When we choose sin over salvation, we must accept the consequences.
>The Truth is a hard truth, but a truth nonetheless.  The lie of
>Satan is that we can invent our own morality, because our ways
>are just as valid as God's.  But God's ways are *not* the ways
>of human beings, they are higher, better, and right.  Satan's
>lure is to flatter us to believe that the things we feel most
>comfortable with must be the right things.  But those are things
>we choose out of a sinful human heart.  Sometimes the gospel is
>a difficult thing to follow.  Sometimes the Lord seems a harsh
>taskmaster, but He always gives us the strength we need to
>endure.  Whether we choose to put our small hand in His and
>let Him lead us to greater freedom is up to us.

Please re-read the "Homophobic, re-read your Bible" post for
starters.  You and other "diehard" types won't listen to ANY
sort of alternative explanations to the very few Bibical passages
having anything to deal with homosexuality.  Rather, you sit in
smug comfort that YOU know the true "word".  I am not any sort of
Biblical expert, but I am willing to listen to scholars who have
a much greater knowledge than I have.

Kerry, I am willing to discuss my feelings - but only if you will
stop putting forth the "party line" (I'm sorry, but that is how your
post sounded).  I think you fail to understand my love for my boyfriend.
I also think that the "love" you claim to have for others is mis-guided
because of your narrow views.  Once again, if I sound harsh to you
(or anyone else) it is because you (et.al.) have been bashing me for
years.

Intellectual comments welcome, if it's the "party line" don't waste
your time.
>
>Love INC,
>         --Kerry

Once again, thanks but no thanks for this "love"... (rather hypocritical
in my mind)

-Tim
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia