From: ljmorly@polaris.utu.fi (Laura Johanna Manninen)
Subject: Re: Calvin, Luther, other church fathers, and antisemitism
Organization: University of Turku
Date: 22 Aug 92 19:05:44

Since you asked this on AM and not by E-mail, I'll reply here.

In article <88742@rphroy.ph.gmr.com> hamilton@hydra.com (William E. Hamilton CS50 CS/50) writes:
> I've noticed several posts accusing Tom Albrecht of antisemitism, one
> of which also mentioned my name. Another post tried to separate me
> from Tom. Thanks, Laura, but to be consistent, if Tom's Calvinism is
> the cause of the charge, then you'd better charge me too. If his Postmillenial
> views are the cause, then you have to at least be suspicious of me.

Neither Calvinism nor Postmillenialism are (the direct?) reasons for 
the charge. And in fact, originally I just implied that TA doesn't even
know what is anti-semitism, nor what is a Jew; he's a bit like Arf in 
TPM/SCJ who happens to be a Jew himself but yet is an antisemite, although
says himself that he isn't. But the fact that TA keeps quoting stuff from
Brit Chadasha that, without the full context, appears as somehow 
anti-semitic, arises suspicions.

Should I be suspicious of you ? (:->) Well, are you an antisemite ? <grin>
(Ata beseder chavivi.)

> I try to avoid taking strong positions on issues like eschatology that
> the worlds greatest theologians have been unable to agree on, but
> I'm more sympathetic to the postmillenial view than I am to the other
> views.

Hmmm, maybe you haven't read well enough the discussions on that issue 
on this newsgroup... (I mean on postmillenialism.)  

> Tom is more outspoken than I am, and maybe that arouses your ire.

You are so kind to everyone, but please open your eyes about TA. He is
not dealing honestly. And when I had that one discussion with him about
various issues, he said that *I'm* not dealing honestly. ("You can ignore
the verses I gave, but let's not pretend you are dealing honestly with 
this." -TA) I didn't ignore the verses he gave.

> But, instead of heaping criticism on him, why don't you take the
> opportunity to learn about Postmillenialism/Calvinism, how you differ from it
> and where you agree. You will always have Christians watching a.m.
> because many are fascinated by Messianic Judaism (and there's quite
> a bit of interest in the non-Messianic variety too). Perhaps we
> should just watch, but when we see you say something that varies 
> sufficiently from the doctrine we hold, it's only natural to want to know
> how you arrive at that position. My respectful suggestion is that you
> look at it as an opportunity
> to explain and learn rather than an intrusion.

Yes, of course. It's just that I'm fed up with TA. Yet I'm ready to forgive
him at the instant moment he repents. And don't forget this is alt.messianic, 
not talk.christianity. This newsgroup wouldn't even exist if it would be
possible to discuss about the Messiah in SCJ.

> So where do I stand? Christian with Calvinist leanings. I consider
> myself one of the wild olive branches grafted onto the root, which is Jesus
> Christ. I see the body of Christ, which includes MJ's as the new (spiritual)
> Israel. Yet I can't dismiss the fact that God chose the Jews, made
> promises to them, and always restored them after disciplining them. So
> I would not argue that God does not have in store another restoration
> for them. But the means of restoration is now, "believe in the Lord
> Jesus Christ and you will be saved," and I would expect that any 
> future restoration would have to be one which offers salvation
> by belief in Jesus Christ to those who hear.

But there's something you don't understand. For Jews, R-Judaism is the
life, and they think that if they believe in YESHUA, it's death.
And assimilation. For Jews, Romans destructed the temple *yesterday*,
the crusades occured *yesterday*, inquisition *yesterday*, haShoah 
*yesterday*, the pogroms *yesterday* and TODAY. Missionaries are hated 
more than terrorists; they are "soul stealers", "soul hunters" etc. and
messianics are called "messy-antics" and considered as traitors. Breakers
of the ICHUD ha'am (the unity of the nation); the ichud of shared memories 
and hatred towards "yeshu".


> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Bill Hamilton                  |
> GM Res/Env Staff           ----+----
> Computer Science Dept.         |      ...all the earth will be filled with
> Warren, MI 48090-9055          |      the glory of the LORD. Num 14:21
> (313) 986 1474                 |
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> The chief end of man is to glorify God and enjoy Him forever
> - The Westminster Shorter Catechism

- Laura
--
"But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans 
of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel,
whose origins are from ancient, from the days of eternity." - Micha 5:1

"Though the mountains be shaken and the hills be removed, yet my unfailing 
love for you will not be shaken nor my covenant of peace be removed,"
says the LORD, who has compassion on you.    - Yeshaya 54:10

met b'chet, CHAI B'Y'SHUA !