From: jle@locus.com (John Elghani)
Subject: Re:  What is  H a m a s  ??
Organization: LC
Date: Thu, 07 Jan 93 03:19:36 GMT

In article <1ifcebINN9rf@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> cl056@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Hamaza H. Salah) writes:
>
>AbdelJawad writes:
>
>In article <1i1m2tINNqh8@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> cl056@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Hamaza H. Salah) writes:
>>While 'ad hominem' is not English, it can be found in any respectable
>>English dictionary.  Do your homework :-)
>
>We'll see if you do yours.
>
>>I will once more give you the benefit of the doubt.  You missed my point.
>>Can you quote me anything from the Quran or Hadith that says that killing
>>a baby (to make the point clear) *with* *a* *gun* is wrong? (FYI, there

You are missing the point, but here are some quotes anyway:

Quranic Quotes:

       "Wala Taqtolo annafsa allaty harrama Allah Illa bilhaq,
	waman qotila mazlooman, ...etc"

       (And don't kill the soul that Allah prohibited except in 
       justice, and those whom were killed w/o justice, ...)

       "Wa itha al maw-oodato so-elat be-ayye thanbin qutilat".

	(And if the burned to death baby girl was asked, why
	was she killed? (on the day of judgement)

A story about the prophet in while in Jihad battle:

	In a Jihad battle, muslims should respect if
	one of the enemy soldiers decided to enter Islam
	at that point.   Now, during one of the battles,
	one soldier entered islam by saying the proper words
	while he was under the sort of one of the Mujahids,
	the Mujahid killed him anyway thinking that the man 
	entered islam because he just feard the death.  The Prophet
	PBUH was very angry at the Mujahid and asked him:
	 
	 Did you really read what's in his heart to make such
	 a dicision.  Probably he really wanted to become a muslim.

	 In other words, the man has been killing muslims just
	 because they are muslims, but when he said the
	 proper words, you cannot even make a judgement
	 as to what's in his heart.  So, you should leave
	 him alone even if you've seen him kill 100 muslims.

jle


>>are *no* references to *guns* in the Quran or Hadith, therefore you would
>>never be able to give me a quote that says that "this kind of murder is 
>>wrong", baby murder with a gun, that is.)  Having said that, are you
>>denying that the Quran said that murder is wrong?  Be careful Hamza!
>
>I think you're the one that is missing my point.  I agree there is nothing 
>in Quran that says anything about guns, or computers as someone said, but
>it tells to "fight the same way as those who fight you."  If they are
>killing our kids, kill theirs.  Don't try to prove your point by bringing
>babys and guns to the subject.  Remember the whole thing started about
>killing an israeli soldier not  b a b i e s.  
>
>>Incidentally, you have provided me with proof that *you* quote out
>>oF context and misrepresent Islam:
>
>I wish you'd brought your own, but that is the sign of someone who
>tries to hold himself by holding a spider rope.  (quranic description)
>
>>1)  The verse refers to 'Mushrekeen', which is translated above as
>>    'unbelievers'.  Judaism is a monotheistic religion, so the verse
>>    does not strictly apply to them (you can look up 'Mushrekeen' in
>>    an Arabic dictionary, or are you alergic to them ;-) ).  For 
>>    non-Arabic speakers, 'Mushrekeen' means those who believe in more
>>    than one God (e.g. the Gaheleya Arabs).
>
>Okay Mr. Gaheleya, I would like to give you a home work to 
>do and see if you do it.  Mushrikeen doesn't only mean the Gaheleya
>Arabs, it means all who associate with God, including christians and jews.
>Homework assignment:
>
>1. look for what I wrote to ibaa
>2. look up in quran the following verses
>   Al-Maidah (17,72,73)
>   Al-Tawbah (30,31)
>
>>2)  The verse is *clearly* intended for a specific context, and is not
>>    an injunction to kill 'Mushrekeen' in any other time or place.  If
>>    that were not true, answer me this:
>
>I agree with you on this.  I rarely do.  It is for those mushrikeen who
>hurts islam and muslims, for example, jews in palestine, christians
>in bosnia.
>   
>>    a.  How come muslims did not kill all the christians in Egypt in the
>>        time of Amr Ibn El'aas?  After all, christians believe in the
>>        trinity: father, son, and holy ghost.  I am assuming Copts believe
>>        the same.  If not, take your pick of any other country which was
>>        invaded by muslim armies.
>
>Christians in egypt don't hurt islam and muslims, it is jews in palestine
>who we are talking about.
>
>>    b.  How come you, Hamza Salah, are not following your own 
>>        interpretation of the verse?  How come your are not stalking your
>>        fellow nonmuslim students and professors on campus, kidnapping
>>        them, and killing them if they don't convert?  Even if this verse
>>        only applies to Israelis (I wonder what kind of linguistic stunt
>>        you'd have to pull to prove that!), I'm sure you can find a few
>>        Israeli students.  Then again, you seem to prefer to talk about
>>        Jews in general, and I'm sure you have quite a few jewish 
>>        professors :-)
>
>It is jews in palestine who we are talking about.  I guess you got 
>carried away. 
>  
>>    (BTW, question (b) is a good example of the 'ad hominem' fallacy.
>>     Sorry, but I couldn't resist ;-) )
>
>my 'ad hominem', as you think, doesn't tell you to kill jews because
>they are just happen to be jews.  islam tells you again to fight those who
>fight you.  i think this is not ad hominem or is it?  as every human being
>has the right to defend themselves in a way or another, mulsims and 
>palestinians do.
>
>>3)  The verse does not say 'take them hostage, and then kill them'.  That
>>    is what you were trying to prove, remember?
>Here is the verse again:
>{
>5. So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the
>                                               ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>unbeleivers wherever you find them, and take them captives and
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if
>they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their
>way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
>} 
>The verse tells you to kill them wherever they are.  More than this.
>Again don't try to prove your point by finding the exact wordings per se.
>There is what called "Qiass" in isalm.  Let see if you can look it up
>in the "arabic" dictionary.  Homework #2.
>
>>>>It should be clear that we are all expressing opinions.  If you think that
>>>>including quotes from the Quran in your postings makes your postings *the*
>>>>truth, then you are, to say the least, naive.  For example, if I am writing
>>>>an article on diabetes which prescribes honey as a cure, and I quote from
>>>>El Na'hl (68-69), then my post is *still* wrong.  Context and interpretation
>>>>matter.
>>>
>>>FIrst the verse about Na'hl is irrelevant.  it says "wa fieh shfaaon linas."
>>>If somebody has diabetes, honey is not the cure for him.  Honey is
>>>good for some other diseases.  If you know arabic language good enough,
>>>and it seems you don't, "fieh shafaaon" is totally different from
>>>"fieh kul shfaa" or "fieh Al shfaa".  "fieh shfaa" menas only for some
>>>but not for all.  Understand!  Don't make fun of quran by giving stupid
>>>examples like this.  So mr. gentlmen, if you don't understand what the
>>>quote says and you misquote it, it doesn't show what you say is true
>>>rather it shows what you say is foolish.
>>>
>
>>Reread what I wrote carefully and you'll find that:
>
>>1)  I am *not* making fun of the Quran.
>A stupid example to prove your point is evident.
>
>>2)  *Your* paragraph is exactly what I'm trying to say:  context and
>>    interpretation matter.
>
>Forget my paragraph, look at yours.  My paragraph proves to you if you
>misunderstand the verse and quote it out of context, you will be wrong 
>no matter what.  But if you understand it and quote it right, what you
>say is right.
>
>What does this mean?
>"For example, if I am writing an article on diabetes which prescribes honey
>as a cure, and I quote from El Na'hl (68-69), then my post is *still* wrong."
>
>>>
>>>>Don't you *acknowledge* that you have a few weeks' holiday from classes 
>>>>and *celebrate* the fact?  Or do you hang out in empty classrooms, 
>>>>lamenting the absence of your professors and fellow students?
>>>
>>>If christams and newyear just happen to be in school break, this
>>>doesn't mean i *celebrate* them. 
>>>
>
>>And who asked you to celebrate christmas and new year's?  I simply wished
>>you happy holidays! 
>
>We're back to square one again.
>
>>Tamer Abdelgawad
>-- 
>                  ___________________ cl056@cleveland.Freenet.Edu _____________
>                 (______   _  |   _  |_
>_____ H A M Z A ________) |-| |_ |-| | |