From: kane@buast7.bu.edu (Hot Young Star)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,ca.politics,ba.politics
Subject: Molesters vs Molestation (WAS Re: Against Our Will)
Date: 29 Jul 92 15:01:48 GMT
	    <92009@bu.edu>
	    <11443@optilink.UUCP>
Followup-To: talk.politics.misc
Organization: Astronomy Department, Boston University, Boston, MA, USA

In article <11443@optilink.UUCP> cramer@optilink.UUCP (Clayton Cramer) writes:

>In article <92009@bu.edu>, kane@buast7.bu.edu (Hot Young Star) writes:

>> In article <11400@optilink.UUCP>
cramer@optilink.UUCP (Clayton Cramer) writes:

>>>3. I have discovered, based on gay-positive textbooks and articles, 
>>>that homosexuals are disproportionately involved in child molestation.

>>What he found was that 80% of child molestation _incidents_ are men
>>abusing girls.

>You need to work on your very limited reading skills.
>Here's what I posted on that subject:
>@ 1. Janet Shibley Hyde, _Understanding Human Sexuality_, (McGraw-Hill,
>@ New York, 1990), 422.
>@ 
>@     Actually, most child molesting is done by heterosexual men to
	                    ^^^^^^^^^
>@     little girls; 80 percent of child molesting is in that category,
	                                 ^^^^^^^^^
>@     and only 20 percent is homosexual (McCaghy, 1971).  [Hyde, 422]
>@ 
>Read it.  Hyde admitted that 20% of child molestation is homosexual.
>Not 20% of a subgroup.

So far so good.

She said 20% of the molestations (note: NOT molesters, but MOLESTATIONS)
were committed by men on boys. She implied nothing about those men's 
sexual orientation to adults.

Comprehend the difference?

>@ Gene G. Abel, M.D., with Nora Harlow, "The Child Abuser: How can 
>@ you spot him?", _Redbook_, August, 1987 [...] study of child molesters
>@ for the Antisocial and Violent Behavior Branch of the National Institute
>@ of Mental Health.  The study covered 403 molesters.  Those 403 molesters
>@ had molested more than 67,000 children.  
>@ 
>@     And not only do molesters assault boys more often than they assault 
>@     girls, but men who molest boys also have an astonishingly higher 
>@     number of victims--an average of 282 victims compared to an average 
>@     of 23 victims among men who assault girls.[Abel and Harlow]
>@ 
>@ According to Abel and Harlow, "Only 21 percent of the child molesters
>@ we studied who assault little boys were exclusively homosexual.
>@ Nearly 80 percent of the men who molested little boys were
>@ heterosexual or bisexual..."
>
>Read it.  The data presented is designed to put homosexuals and
>bisexuals in the best possible light, and even this admits that
>homosexuals are grossly overrepresented among the number of molesters,
>and among the number of incidents.

You are persistently misunderstanding my point. If men who molest boys
do so at a rate about ***12*** times that of men who molest girls (which
by the way I believe), then those men make up a much smaller fraction of
molesters than the girl-molesters, because they INDIVIDUALLY do a lot
more damage. If we are to believe Hyde, 20% of the molestations involve boys.
In the large sample of Abel and Harlow, 67000, this would mean about 13400
incidents. Now, since boy-molesters apparently have a large average number
of victims, 282, then the average number of boy-molesters in the sample would
be 13400 divided by 282, which is 48.

When you divide comparable numbers by large and small numbers (282 and 23,
to be precise) you shouldn't be surprised when division by a large number
gives a small result. 48 is a rather small fraction of the total sample
size, 403.

So there were most likely about 48 boy-molesters in this sample, who did
a hell of a lot of psychological damage, at 282 victims a pop, on average,
to account for the 13400, or 20% of the sample.

Think about it. 48 out of 403. This is about 12%. This number represents the
fraction of MOLESTERS that molest boys exclusively.

But then Abel and Harlow present another amazing statistic, that of these 48,
the men who molested boys, "only 21% were exclusive homosexuals". In light of
the fact that this subsample deals only with boys, their statement can't
logically be made to say that men who molest boys are homosexual, since they
themselves say that only 21% are homosexual.

But making that assumption is EXACTLY what you did with Hyde's conclusion.
You took her statement that 20% of the molestation incidents were homosexual,
that is, involving men and boys, and then made the leap of faith that all
of these molesters were homosexual themselves. But by golly, Abel and Harlow
say you can't do that---only 21% of the guys who molest boys are actually
homosexual!

Capiche?

>homosexuals molest a lot of boys.

This is an unwarranted conclusion to make from the two studies you have
quoted. The proper conclusion to make is that "men who molest boys,
regardless of their sexual orientation with respect to adults, do so
at a rate very much higher than their girl molesting counterparts.

>> victims of multiple-molesters much more than girls are, and the fact
>> that man-boy abuse only accounts for 20% of all incidents of molestation,
>> plus the statistic that only 21% of the men who abuse boys are exclusively
>> homosexual, together show that exclusive homosexuals only represent between
>> 2 and 5% of the total number of child molesters.

>You are combining two different sets of results in a way not warranted.

Why isn't it warranted? I've taken three points from the two studies:

1. 80% of MOLESTATIONS [not molesters!] involve girls [Hyde]

2. Molesters of boys average 282 victims to the 23 of molesters of girls.
[Abel and Harlow]

3. Of the molesters of boys, only 21% profess a homosexual orientation with
respect to adults. [Abel and Hyde]

Now, you have done similarly, taking statements from two different studies,
and used them to arrive at your conclusions. Your conclusions differ from
mine because of the confusion between incidents and perpetrators, and the
confusion of the relative sex of the molester and victim with the sexual
orientation of the molester.

>You are conveniently leaving out the bisexuals involved in homosexual
>molestation.

Convenient isn't the word. Necessary is, since neither study you quoted
gave statistics. But if you try to break down Abel and Harlow's sample
you come to the conclusion that most molesters must have molested children
of both sexes. Do you then conclude that bisexuals are the most dangerous
molesters? I think not.

>> And what, pray tell, is wrong with encouraging homosexuality to those
>> who already self-identify?

>What's wrong with encouraging heterosexuality, then?

Nothing! More specifically, what's wrong with encouraging the teen to
express his natural sexuality, whether it be heterosexual, bisexual, or
homosexual?

>The problem is that teenagers are terribly confused [...] about their
>sexuality, what with hormones raging, the social skills not fully developed
>with the opposite sex, and you want some adult to come in and teach them
>that they can get instant sexual gratification by going into gay bars. Great.

Sure they're confused. Especially if they've felt homosexual impulses and
they only have role models who say that they're sick if they feel that way.
Their social skills with the SAME sex may be deficient for all you know.

And where in hell did you get the idea that teaching about homosexuality
automatically involves sexual gratification? You're absolutely ridiculous,
Cramer.

>> If suicidal tendencies
>> are a fundamental part of homosexual orientation, as you suggest, why might
>> these tendencies peak in teen years, when ALL of us experienced the greatest
>> amount of social angst? Why don't you see gay elders committing suicide any
>> more than straight elders? After all, they have the same orientation, what's
>> preventing these "organic" suicidal tendencies from surfacing?

>Perhaps for the same reason that you don't see many deaths past 80?
>By the way, a lot of older homosexuals are dying of a slow form of
>suicide: AIDS.

You have evaded the question once again. Nice job.

>> Open your eyes, Clayton.

>You opened them up.

Not yet.

>Still not reading carefully.  80% of molesters were bisexual or
>heterosexual -- but not 80% of the victims, because the homosexual
>molesters were molesting FAR more kids.

No, 80% of the INCIDENTS involved girls.

And no, MOLESTERS OF BOYS were molesting far more victims on average.
Thus there were FAR FEWER of them to do such massive damage.

>> there is a one in five chance that your friend's nephew's molester was gay.

>The molester has been arrested.  He is a homosexual

So he is part of the 21% of boy molesters Abel and Harlow cited. But the
other 79% of their boy-molester sample were likely married, with children
of their own, and identify for the large part as heterosexuals.

Brian.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
kane@{buast7,astro}.bu.edu (Hot Young Star) Astronomy Dept, Boston University,
Boston, MA 02215. True personal salvation is achieved by absolute faith in
oneself.
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