HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: msmiller@Rational.COM (Mark Miller)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.pro
Subject: Re: Jordan >= Magic && Bird
Date: 29 Aug 92 00:39:23 GMT
Organization: Rational

In article <1992Aug28.213921.21769@brtph560.bnr.ca>, markham@brtph600.bnr.ca (Andrew Markham P205) writes:
|> In article <5615@igor.Rational.COM> msmiller@Rational.COM (Mark Miller) writes:
|> >In article <1992Aug27.124220.21758@brtph560.bnr.ca>, markham@brtph600.bnr.ca (Andrew Markham P205) writes:
|> >|> Individual skills are just as important as team skills.  If Bird couldn't 
|> >|> drain the 3ptr and Magic couldn't get into the lane during a fastbreak,
|> >|> their team skills wouldn't do *dick*.  It just so happens that Jordan has 
|> >|> *much* better individual skills and Magic/Bird have *somewhat* better 
|> >|> team skills.
|> >
|> >"Somewhat better?" That's like saying Dan Quayle is "somewhat stoopid."
|> >
|> >Fact is the Lakers and Celtics won many a game where Bird or Magic
|> >scored under 10 points. They didn't have to rely on their scoring, 
|> >although they could score pretty freakin' well. I seem to recall some
|> >amazing Bird shootouts - 50+ points. In his prime, they weren't all
|> >that rare either. So, how is Jordan's 50+ point game "much better" than
|> >Bird's or Magic's? Do tell. Points is points.
|> 
|> Magic and Bird didn't need to rely on their scoring because Worthy/Kareem
|> and Parish/McHale could do it for them.  When Jordan used to score 50+
|> points on a regular basis, he didn't have *ANYTHING* on his team that
|> came close to the skills of Worthy/Kareem/Parish/McHale.  Now he has Pippen
|> and scores less, makes his teammates better, etc...  Bird and Magic 
|> didn't need to rely on their scoring because they didn't have to.  Only
|> in the last 2 years has Jordan had that luxury (and as a result gets praises 
|> about how he's made his teammates better and plays more team-oriented ball) 
|> and lo and behold, look at was has happened to the success of his team
|> over those two years.
|> 
|> You guys keep talking about how much Magic/Bird could do without having to
|> score, but you always seem to forget to mention the All-Stars on their
|> teams.  I wonder why...

You have evaded the issue nicely. Now it's the skill of the rest of
team which makes Bird's and Magic's team-game a non-issue. Geeezuz.

You also "somehow" missed the question about how Jordan scoring 50+
points show skills which are "*much* better" than Bird or Magic 
scoring 50+ points. I wonder why ...

I would advise you to drop this line of discussion before either the
facts or your abusive language render your position hopeless. To
argue that Magic's or Bird's passing skills were only "*somewhat*
better" than Jordan's is a losing proposition.

	-MSM

________________________________________________________________________
Mark S. Miller                                     msmiller@Rational.COM
"Life is a 4-letter word."                        msmiller@world.std.com
[ insert tedious disclaimer drivel here ]                           IV-Q
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.pro
From: grubin@virga.ucar.edu (Rick Grubin)
Subject: Re: Who's gonna win it all (was Re: Predictions)
Organization: Research Applications Program/NCAR, Boulder, CO
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 22:04:51 GMT



gsd@unislc.uucp (Greg Dodd) writes:
>My picks look something like this: AS OF August 27, 92
>Western Conference

>        MIDWEST
    [... and for 5th place ...]
>        Denver          (Trade or do something, new coach???)

Yep, you're right.  Firing Paul Westhead (Westphal?) and hiring
new coach Dan Issel was a dumb move.  Get a new coach.  And then
drafting the 5th (LaPhonso Ellis) and 13th (Bryant Stith) players,
that's not really doing *too* much of something.  Hey, and don't
forget, have Issel completely ignore Dikembe Mutombo's low post
game over the summer.  Maybe Detroit would like to trade Orlando
Woolridge back to Denver for Scott Hastings.

Geez, if you're gonna rip other teams besides the TV darlings, at
least get a clue about them.  Of course, doing something like
essentially giving the point to Mark Macon isn't the right
`something' to do.

--
Rick Grubin     grubin@ncar.ucar.edu
From: jte@beefheart.cc.columbia.edu (Jeff Eldredge)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.pro
Subject: Re: Shaq and Magic
Date: 27 Aug 92 15:24:26 GMT
Reply-To: jte@beefheart.cc.columbia.edu
Organization: Columbia University

In article <1992Aug26.225016.29472@sequent.com> deand@sequent.com (Dean  
Davison) writes:
> 
> Here is the question for the day:
> 
> If Magic went back to the Lakers, but had to renegotiate his contract,
> how much would they be willing to pay him, given Shaq's paycheck?


Shaq's contract is completely ridiculous.  It is pointless to ponder  
whether or not other teams will have to adjust their player's contracts  
(like a proposed Magic return) in order to compensate a player's relative  
worth vis a vis the Shaq contract.  Who would be able to afford this?  How  
much should Jordan make?  $25 million a year?  The point is that we're  
just about at the crossroads of NBA overspending relative to the salary  
cap, that is, unless someone can think of more creative ways of deferring  
payments and borrowing against the future.

Jeff Eldredge
From: vreddy@das.harvard.edu (Venkatesh Reddy)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.pro
Subject: Re: Mike
Date: 26 Aug 92 15:38:31 GMT
Article-I.D.: das.1992Aug26.153831.26828
Distribution: usa
Organization: Aiken Computation Lab, Harvard University

In article <1992Aug26.152918.8233@uwm.edu>, rdesai@ee.uwm.edu (Rajiv Desai) writes:
|> What are all these fuss about Jordan, Bird and Magic? Sure they are all-time
|> greats. But when it comes to the game there is nobody better than Mike. How
|> many times the game is on line and ball in his hand and the whole world knows
|> what he is to do and opposition also know and still watch him destroy them.
|> This purely amazing.

I couldn't watch this one go by of course. You didn't watch the NBA any in the
80's did you? Otherwise, you would have realized that Bird and Magic have won
more games "on the line", in the last minutes, while the opposition just watched
helplessly, than Mike. or perhaps, you chose to overlook this, like everyone else
who, for no reason, are trying to undermine Larry and Magic's NBA
accomplishments. If you watched the double-OT Celtics vs. Blazers game, you would
have gotten a little hint of what Larry did on a regular basis in the 80's... A
great in-your-face impossible shot that won a game on the line. Please don't
try to get away with saying Mike is the best because he wins the most games on
the line. You won't.

-- Venk --
From: halpin@sw.stratus.com (Jim Halpin)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.pro
Subject: Re: Celtics? (was Re: Boston Celtics' Rick Fox)
Date: 26 Aug 92 14:16:04 GMT
Organization: Stratus Computer, Inc.

In article <1992Aug25.141939.2041@das.harvard.edu>, vreddy@das.harvard.edu (Venkatesh Reddy) writes:
> 
> 
> Fox will definitely be playing more...


	Fox should see more playing time this year, provided he can stay out of 
foul trouble. He plays aggressive D and needs to get a little smarter about what
he can get away with. Not being a rookie anymore should help him with the refs.
Fox will probably be the bench swingman, backing up both Gamble and Lewis. I 
wouldn't be surprised to see Fox at SF during crunch time of close games.

> My question to you more avid Boston followers is: What's the deal with the
> point guard position? Who are they keeping/trading?
> They have: Sherman Douglas, Dee Brown, John Bagley, and Jon Barry (or did
> Barry hold out too long?). IMHO, Sherman should be traded, if he hasn't been
> already...  

	Dee Brown and Sherman Douglas are the only point guards currently under
contract. Supposedly, they have tried to trade Douglas all summer, but his
contract has made it tough.

	John Bagley is an unrestricted free agent. Gavitt has said he would like
Bags back next year, but I don't think they'll re-sign the Bagman unless Douglas
or Brown is traded.

	Jon Barry hasn't signed and there has been no news about him since the
rookie camp. His agent thinks that a bigger salary slot will open up for Barry.
You can't really say Barry is a `holdout', as training camp is still about
2 months away.
 
-- 
!	Jim  Halpin
!	halpin@turkey.sw.stratus.com
!	Marlboro, MA
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.pro
From: jdt29225@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Jazzy J )
Subject: Jordan injury in '85-'86 
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 15:00:49 GMT

u1781ag@unx.ucc.okstate.edu (Andy Lowery) writes:

>>>
>>>85-86  o Only played 18 games due to injury 
>What kind of injury did he have that year?  I don't remember him missing
>a season...

	Jordan suffered a stress fracture in his foot (can't remember
	right of left).  He averaged 22.7 ppg on 45.7% fg
	shooting (career lows).  However, he did come back for the playoffs
	and wound up scoring those 63 points vs the Celts in the Garden...

	Jazzy J
-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|  "I am human and I need to be loved,            | Jazzy J                   |
|   just like everybody else does..." - The Smiths| jdt29225@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu | 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.pro
From: u_nique@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Jerray Wei)
Subject: Re: Australia vs. NCAA teams
Organization: HAC - Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 01:21:02 GMT

In article <9224318.28627@mulga.cs.mu.OZ.AU> rns@munta.cs.mu.OZ.AU (Robert Noel STURROCK) writes:
>
>Given that the US team was *extremely* fortunate to beat Australia
>for the bronze in '88, how can you say that the Australian olympic
>team is not even a top 20 NCAA side?  Weren't the old US teams
>supposed to be comprised of the *best* college players?

How do you figure this?  If I remember correctly, the U.S. destroyed the
Australian team in '88 for the finals, by at least 30 if not more points.
I just remember that Danny Manning recovered from his 0 point performance
against the Soviets and dunked the crap out of them.
From: ogrady@iies.ecn.purdue.edu (Michael P. O'Grady)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.pro
Subject: Re: FIVE ALIVE
Date: 3 Sep 92 07:41:50 GMT
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network

In article <1992Sep2.184734.2536@cc.umontreal.ca> iacurtop@ERE.UMontreal.CA (Iacurto Paul) writes:

>5 good looking guys:
>Horace Grant

Harvey Grant???  They are twins after all...

Mike

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
   There is no reason for any individual to have a computer in their home.
        -- Ken Olson, President, Digital Equipment Corporation, 1977
------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: edrury@3cpu.rain.com (Ed Drury)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.pro
Subject: Re: Predictions
Date: 27 Aug 92 04:00:26 GMT
Reply-To: edrury@.UUCP (Ed Drury)
Organization: Garden Lane Software

In article <16376@ucdavis.ucdavis.edu> fzchen@othello.ucdavis.edu writes:
[ Stuff about Phoenix deleted ]
>Similarly, I don't think Portland is all that old.

 I don't know if I agree with everything you said in your post, but I
was happy to see the above. Portland made itself a MUCH younger team
this summer. Ainge will turn 35 in March. Wayne Cooper (one of the other
long in the tooth players) will also be absent. They will have at least
two rookies (Murray and Smith are virtual locks) and obtained a 29 y/o
backup two guard and a backup point guard who is also pretty young in
Strickland. So beyond the starting five, you have quite a lot of youth.

 The trick will be combining these players in ways that make sense and
having them play well enough (as well as long enough) to give the starters
rest without loosing too much ground. And then the question marks. How
much does Buck Williams have left in him? Will Drexler's knee (which
bothered him through the Olympics) be 100%. Last I heard, it's STILL
swollen. Will Porter swing to 2 guard and Kersey come off the bench?
Will both players adjust to that? Will Elie be effective for Portland?
Duckworth has reportedly been working with a very intense weight program
at Gold's gym and is supposedly now "addicted" to training. Will that
have a positive effect on him? Will Cliff Robinson stop taking wild
shots and become the player other people see in him rather than the
hot dog he tends to see in himself?

 A lot of questions in such a tough division. They can't spend too
long to answer them, or they'll find themselves a long way back of
the pack. Looking at their opening schedule, they are going to play
some teams that can jump all over them early. I think they've improved
themselves, but so has Utah and Phoenix. I guess, with respect to
your comments about Phoenix, I'm just saying: Don't get cocky. ;-)

 Ed

>
>Phoenix is going to have to fight to win the Pacific, and both
>Phoenix and Utah will have to prove they can beat Portland in the 
>playoffs.  
>
>-MeatHead


-- 
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Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.pro
From: ahall@fmrco.com (Andrew Hall)
Subject: Re: Who's gonna win it all? (was Re: Predictions)
Organization: Fidelity Management & Research Co.
	<l9njehINN3v9@dimebox.cs.utexas.edu> <1992Aug26.184254.6582@uwm.edu>
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 22:42:06 GMT

In article <1992Aug26.184254.6582@uwm.edu> paul@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Paul R Krueger) writes:

   Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.pro
Path: fmrco!uunet!uunet!uunet!caen!uwm.edu!csd4.csd.uwm.edu!paul
   From: paul@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Paul R Krueger)
   Sender: news@uwm.edu (USENET News System)
   Organization: Computing Services Division, University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
   References: <l9ndehINN35h@dimebox.cs.utexas.edu> <1992Aug26.172948.25925@uwm.edu> <l9njehINN3v9@dimebox.cs.utexas.edu>
   Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 18:42:54 GMT
   Lines: 17

   In article <l9njehINN3v9@dimebox.cs.utexas.edu> wardrb@cs.utexas.edu (Richard Byron Ward) writes:
   >In article <1992Aug26.172948.25925@uwm.edu> paul@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Paul R Krueger) writes:
   >|>|
   >|>
   >|>Not!  Name one good beer produced in Milwaukee.
   >|>
   >|    How 'bout Miller? Or the much underrated Pabst? 
   >|
   >I'm still waiting...
   >
	Oh, I suppose down south you'd rather drink Billy Beer, huh ;)
	I guess as long as it's not Bud or Busch it's okay.

   >
   >


There is NO good beer mentioned above.  Try New Amsterdam, Anchor, Sam Adams if
you want to drink american beer.
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.pro
From: saunders@luther.che.wisc.edu (Brian E. Saunders)
Subject: Re: REASONS WHY AUSTRALIA COULD KICK DT!
Organization: University of Wisconsin - Madison
Date: 2 Sep 92 13:22:42 CDT

In article <4dtU02P120n601@JUTS.ccc.amdahl.com> msw10@nepenthe.as writes:
>
>In article 224@uniwa.uwa.edu.au, blip@tartarus.uwa.edu.au (Bryan Lip) writes:
>[explanation as to why medal-less Australia's basketball team is better than the DT]
>>
>>AUSTRALIA ON THE OTHER HAND IS A TEAM, WHICH MANG
>                                        ^^^^^^^^^^^
>                                        unclear on the editor/mailer concept
>
>hee hee hee.
>
>This one kills me.

Maybe he meant "mung", a term used by Wayne and Garth, among others...
-- 

Brian E. Saunders			saunders@luther.che.wisc.edu
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.pro
From: mack@isl.Stanford.EDU (mack)
Subject: Re: thanks ed and dave
Organization: Stanford University
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 92 18:54:01 GMT

lor@cbnewsk.cb.att.com (edward.lor) writes:
=>davem@uvmark.uucp (Dave Meeks) writes:
=>>
=>>This time I said I am stopping, and I did. 
=>
=>Because you are going nowhere. You still can't refute the Bird 3ptr being
=>an instance of the type CFTHTTWAFAM, which is a home job. Your only
=>defense is not to refute it, but calling it stupid, which confirms
=>your admission, which should be tagged as stupid indeed.

Here we go again. Ed, you are a sick man.

=>Now, go ahead, I dare you not reply.

Dave, please do not reply.

>                                          Edward Lor
>                                          lor@cbnewsk.att.com

    --mack
From: edrury@3cpu.rain.com (Ed Drury)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.pro
Subject: Re: Memories of Magic, Larry, and Mike
Keywords: n
Date: 28 Aug 92 02:09:42 GMT
Article-I.D.: 3cpu.4221
Reply-To: edrury@.UUCP (Ed Drury)
Organization: Garden Lane Software

In article <1992Aug27.191715.730@ticipa.pac.sc.ti.com> robert@landru.mtc.ti.com (Robert Treese) writes:
>
>Or what about that time when ........	

 He won the 3 point contest on the last ball? He released the shot, turned
and walked away lifting his arm up in the air signaling the number one...
or was that his version of the Bird? It was like, "You all watch the red
white and blue ball rip the net, I'm done....".

>Robert


 Ed

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Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.pro
From: dwarner@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (david j warner)
Subject: Re: Shaq and Magic
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 02:59:58 GMT

In article <1992Aug26.225016.29472@sequent.com> Dean Davidson writes:

>Here is the question for the day:
>
>If Magic went back to the Lakers, but had to renegotiate his contract,
>how much would they be willing to pay him, given Shaq's paycheck?

I don't know, but then again, a tree fell right in front of me in the forest
one day, and I didn't hear it.  :)  I doubt Shaq's paycheck will mean much
here.  Magic knows that, despite his talents, he's still a medical problem
and may not be able to play at all regardless of all the money on earth.

Personally, I hope he stays in retirement.  He would only hurt himself if he
returned to the rigors of the NBA, and the gold medal was the perfect end to
his career.  Besides, if Herr Bush gets dumped in November (and he's starting
to sag in the polls again), Magic could still do a lot for AIDS awareness in
this country.



-- 
- David J. --------- BLUE RIDDLE PRODUCTIONS.  Bloomington, IN; Durham, NC. -
- e-mail: dwarner@miami.ucs.indiana.edu -------------------------------------
***************** "RAP IS AN ART/TURN UP THE MICROPHONE" ********************
***************** BRP's debut 12" single -- coming soon  ********************
From: sheyn@csa.bu.edu (Igor Sheyn)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.pro
Subject: Pooh Richardson
Date: 26 Aug 92 18:38:01 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Department, Boston University, Boston, MA, USA
Originator: sheyn@csa


I was suprised when i saw Pooh Richardson playing in LA Summer League
in Clippers uniforme. Did Minnesotta trade/release him or did he become 
a free agent?
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Date: Sunday, 30 Aug 1992 21:01:21 CDT
From: <U14540@uicvm.uic.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.pro
Subject: Re: Jordan >= Magic && Bird
 <5615@igor.Rational.COM> <1992Aug28.213921.21769@brtph560.bnr.ca>
 <5617@igor.Rational.COM>

>|>
>|> You guys keep talking about how much Magic/Bird could do without having to
>|> score, but you always seem to forget to mention the All-Stars on their
>|> teams.  I wonder why...
>
>You have evaded the issue nicely. Now it's the skill of the rest of
>team which makes Bird's and Magic's team-game a non-issue. Geeezuz.

    Man, what the hell is your problem? Your claim that the reason Bird and
  Magic were better players than Jordan was because they made their teammates
  better through passing or whatever. This guy simply points out that Bird and
  Magic already had all-star teammates and now here your are crying that he is
 avoiding the issue. Sure Bird and Magic had a lot of assists. That's because
 they had the players to finish the play. I have seen a lot of times where
 Jordan will make a great pass to a teammate only to have the ball bounce out
 of their hands of them missing a layup. Don't even try to compare Jordan's
 supporting cast to Magic's and Bird's.
>
>You also "somehow" missed the question about how Jordan scoring 50+
>points show skills which are "*much* better" than Bird or Magic
>scoring 50+ points. I wonder why ...

   I'll tell you why. Jordan scores his 50 with 2 or 3 people covering him.
 Bird and Magic do it with 1 sometimes 2.


>
>I would advise you to drop this line of discussion before either the
>facts or your abusive language render your position hopeless. To
>argue that Magic's or Bird's passing skills were only "*somewhat*
>better" than Jordan's is a losing proposition.

  Why is his position pointless? Just because you say it is. I think not.
  It's obvious that you are biased towards Bird .That's fine. Just stop
  trying to convince everybody he's the second coming because he sure ain't
  that.
From: edrury@3cpu.rain.com (Ed Drury)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.pro
Subject: Re: Jordan >= Magic && Bird
Date: 28 Aug 92 07:59:21 GMT
Article-I.D.: 3cpu.4223
Reply-To: edrury@.UUCP (Ed Drury)
Organization: Garden Lane Software

In article <1992Aug28.002603.29610@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au> rda455w@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au (H. Nguyen) writes:
>In article <4218@3cpu.rain.com> edrury@.UUCP (Ed Drury) writes:
>>In article <1992Aug26.232647.23645@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au> rda455w@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au (H. Nguyen) writes:
>>>I want to put this comparison into another perspective. I was wondering If
>>>it was possible for any player to win all three events at the Allstar game
>>>(Three point shoot out, Dunk comp and Allstar MVP) ? 
>>
>> I don't know of a rule against it.
>>
>>>The only player who I could think, either in the past or present, would be
>>>Mike. He has already won the Dunk comp and Allstar MVP and come pretty close
>>>in the 3-point shoot out. I think this is one of the challenges he would
>>>like to win before he retires.
>>
>> Refresh my memory. Which year(s) did Michael win the all-star game MVP and
>>which year(s) was he entered in the 3 point contest?
>>
>  I should have mentioned it earlier, but the player would not have to win
> all the events in the one year.   That would nearly be impossible. 

 No , I understood what you meant. I just spaced when he won an all star
MVP. And I sure don't remember him almost coming close in a 3 point contest.
I don't doubt any of the above, but as I told Andrew, I don't have a list
of All-Star MVP's. Andrew  (I think) stated that he won it in 1991 but I
remember Charles Barkley getting it. I did have the presence of mind to
find my copy of Peterson's and they remember Barkley winning it in 1991
as well. I don't doubt MJ won an All-Star MVP, I just don't remember what
year it was and I don't remember him even being in a 3 point. However, I
didn't see last year's 3 point contest and so I'm quite in the dark on
what happened.

 So what year *did* Michael win the All-Star MVP? Given that Magic won
1992 and Charles won 1991, I don't have stats for All Star games so I'm
actually asking. You guys follow MJ, know his stats and all. I'm just
looking for the answer. Remember, there is a seeker born every minute. :-)


    Ed

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Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.pro