HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: baseball@catch-the-fever.scd.ucar.edu (Gregg Walters)
Subject: Re: Get a life baseball fans... Try ping-pong!
Organization: Scientific Computing Divison/NCAR Boulder, CO
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 22:44:55 GMT

In Article: 95990 of rec.sport.baseball,
<khanh@cfsmo.honeywell.com> Khanh Nguyen FLAMED >>

>> I finally stooped so low as to watch a baseball game the other day.  It was
>> a tape of the "World" Series!  What a joke!  I can't believe you people.  I
>> have seen some half-assed sports in my day, but baseball has got to take
>> the cake.  I mean, really, a bunch of fat, old men running around in kid's
>> outfits, scratching themselves, and spitting on national television.
>>
>> Oh, and God forbid they should have to run across the field and damn near
>> have a heartattack.  Please!
>>
>> And what do these slobs get paid?  $50,000,000 per second!  For what?
>>
>> Have you seen a modern table tennis tourney lately?  Real action!  Mano a
>> mano battle for supremacy on the board.  Each one grabbing his paddle
>> instead of his crotch.
>>
>> Pardon my saying so, but the only thing lamer than baseball is what you
>> call "football."
>>
>> No flames necessary-- although I'm not sure you knobheads could scrape up
>> enough intelligence between you to come up with a good one.  Anyway, I'm
>> sure you're all REALLY offended.  Offended-- that's a big person word for
>> when you don't like something that someone said.
>>
>> So, don't bother.
>>
>> Khanh

HEE HEE, ALL THAT'S REQUIRED TO FLUSH THIS WEE LITTLE TURD IS AN EYE DROPPER.


Gregg            \\   baseball@ncar.ucar.edu   //
		  \\            /\            //
	       _^   \          /  \          /   ^_
	       _\|__/\        /    \        /\__|/_
	      /\___/         /      \         \___/\
	     | CR/        /\/   o    \/\        \CR |
	     |--/        /     /        \        \--|
	      \ \       /     //         \       / /
	      / /      /     //           \      \ \
	      \ \     /  COLORADO ROCKIES  \     / /
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: kbos@carina.unm.edu (K. Mitchell Bose)
Subject: Re: range factor question
Date: Sat, 09 Jan 93 15:14:07 GMT
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque
Keywords: range factor

In article <1993Jan9.023725.2910@Princeton.EDU> niepornt@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (David Marc Nieporent) writes:
>
>>for home turf--  except in the interpretation!  In every article I've
>>seen, they say that Robbie Alomar's range is better than his score on this
>>scale.  On the other hand, Jose Oopserman has absolutely no excuse for his
>>low range score!  This statistic is interesting, but not as useful as,
>>say, fielding percentage.
>
>Which has about as much use as, say, SAT scores in measuring defense.
>
I just want to say that when I played shortstop in school, I had a tremendous
fielding percentage. (Two errors in 94 games, career.)  I also had very high 
SAT scores.

However, in the interest of fairness, I should mention that I have found that
SAT scores have about as much use as, say, fielding percentage in determining
college GPA.  :(


-- 
Kurt Bose (as in Daisy, not Rose) * kbos@carina.unm.edu * Walks: not that sexy.
"Halt!  Based on conclusive dental evidence that truly bites, I arrest you 
 hereby for the murdering of the dead Belzic Tascar.  I am obliged to warn you 
 that my weapons are registered as offensive fronds!!"- R.M.Allen, "Monkey See"
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: akrao@athena.mit.edu (Arvind K Rao)
Subject: Re: Cards. Are there collectors outthere?
Keywords: cards
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 02:00:28 GMT


Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: spira@panix.com (Greg "Sarcasm Is A Way Of Life" Spira)
Subject: Re: Alomar and Range Factor (was Re: Lists: The Best Players In Baseball)
Organization: Boo! 
Distribution: na
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 18:19:43 GMT

In <1993Jan8.142208.5524@sni.ca> dave@snitor.sni.ca (Dave Till) writes:

>In article <1993Jan8.032738.23621@athena.mit.edu> cmk@athena.mit.edu (Charles M Kozierok) writes:
>>i'm not going to start down the "the stats say he's worst but i know
>>he's great from seeing him" road again.. i'm just genuinely curious as
>>to how someone who appears to be a defensive gem can have the lowest
>>range factor. either he is doing it with mirrors, i am crazy, or that
>>statistic is bogus.  if anyone can clarify which of these three it is,
>>i would like to hear it.

>Alomar's range factor is lower than it should be because the Jays pitching
>staff gives up more fly balls than grounders.  Every Jay infielder had below
>average range; every Jays outfielder had average range or better.  (This
>includes Candy Maldonado, unless my memory is playing tricks on me.)

>STATS lists zone ratings for infielders, and claims that Alomar is very
>close to the league average (in fact, a little bit below).  This surprises
>me, as it would seem that not much gets by him.  Is he doing something
>wrong?  Does he not anticipate well, or does he not take a good first step?
>Like Charles, I think Alomar looks good out there.

I think Alomat is inconsistent, but much better than Zone credits him as
being.  When I looked at Zone, DA etc. last year, I could almost predict
who Zone was going to underrate compared to DA.  Because the Zone zones are
smaller, it ends up underrating those who are often spectacular but maybe
not all that consistent.  I do think Alomar is not quite the defensive god
he's made out to be, but I do think he's up there among the best.

This is what I think happens with the Zone Ratings, compared with DA.  Sherri
might want to correct this if it's wrong:  

Alomar made, say 250 out of 300 plays in his ZR zone.  That goes into both
his ZR and his DA.  But he also made, say, 75 out of 150 plays out of his
ZR zone, but in his DA zone.  Meanwhile, Mr. 2B makes 265 out of 300 plays
in his ZR zone.  But he also made, say, only 25 out of 150 plays in the area
outside his ZR zone but inside his DA zone.

ZR will credit Alomar with making 325 out of 375 plays, while crediting
Mr. 2B with 290 out of 325.  

DA, meanwhile, will credit Almoar for 325 out of 450 plays, while crediting
Mr. 2B for 290 out of 450 plays.

In ZR, Mr. 2B looks better.  In DA, Alomar looks a lot better.  
ZR credits players for the successes but not the failures outside the zone.
And because the zone is too small, I believe that ends up favoring the
reliable over the guy with great range in a silly way.

Greg 
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: niepornt@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (David Marc Nieporent)
Subject: Re: red sox are laughable.
Originator: news@nimaster
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 07:49:31 GMT

In article <875.02LZ300r01@JUTS.ccc.amdahl.com> dba30@JUTS.ccc.amdahl.com (David Allison) writes:
>In <1993Jan5.003448.11145@Princeton.EDU> (David Marc Nieporent) writes:
>>In article <1993Jan4.233544.24378@athena.mit.edu> cmk@athena.mit.edu (Charles M Kozierok) writes:
>>>In article <Jan.4.10.44.20.1993.12236@pilot.njin.net> gajarsky@pilot.njin.net (Bob Gajarsky - Hobokenite) writes:

>>>>there are several people i know, who were disgruntled
>>>> red sox fans the past 2 years, who have abandoned the red
>>>> sox ship with their recent signings/trades/actions.  however,
>>>> i just heard an interesting thing...

>>>>the red sox are supposedly interested in signing jerome walton.

>>>>which would give them more outfielders than the rest of the major
>>>> leagues put together.  

>>>at least they got rid of ellis burks... who signed with the other
>>>color sox.

>>At least?
>>I mean, sure, this gets rid of one of their outfielders.
>>But not the right one.  

>>What kind of idiot would look at Ellis Burks and Billy Hatcher and say
>>Billy Hatcher is the guy he wants?  Oh, of course.  Lou Gorman.

>It wasn't so much that they chose Hatcher over Burks.  I think the fact
>that Burks wanted a GUARANTEED 3.something salary and was offered a
>2.something with incentives, but turned the offer down had a lot to do
>with it.  It makes me wonder about his back when he out right refused an
>incentive based contract.  I wouldn't want to guarantee him over 3 mil.
>either.

Why?  Injured or not, he's more useful than Billy Hatcher.

It isn't so much that they let go of Burks.  Maybe his injury makes him
too much of a gamble.

But they protected him!  And let one of their top prospects, an
extremely valuable commodity, a good hitting catcher, go for nothing!
And then they *released* Burks.

And if that isn't stupid enough, they keep Billy Hatcher!  Billy Hatcher
is not a gamble.  He's a known commodity.  There's no chance in hell he'll 
be worth anything.

-- 
David M. Nieporent   | Is it too early to start making predictions for 1993?
niepornt@phoenix.    | Probably, but that never stopped me before.
   princeton.edu     | ALE: Baltimore ALW: Chicago NLE: Montreal NLW: Atlanta
Baltimore Orioles 93 | AL MVP: Cal Ripken  AL Cy Young: Mike Mussina
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: cmk@athena.mit.edu (Charles M Kozierok)
Subject: Re: Hall of Fame voting (read - Disgusted)
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 21:02:47 GMT

In article <1993Jan07.161713.24781@watson.ibm.com> mjones@fenway.aix.kingston.ibm.com (Mike Jones) writes:
>acker@maple.circa.ufl.edu writes:
>: Still, though, a part of me wants to attain some of those earlier goals.
>: Like joining the BBWAA (BaseBall Writers of America Association for those of
>: you still reading).  And why do I want to join that association?
>: BECAUSE THE CURRENT MEMBERS ARE IGNORANT, STUPID, GENERAL WASTES OF BRAIN
>: TISSUE THAT HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO CLUE ABOUT THE SPORT OF BASEBALL.
>: Well, most of them anyway.  How can 35% of the members of the BBWAA choose NOT
>: to elect a man who won 318 games in his career, struck out more than 3500
>: batters, threw a no-hitter and became the oldest player ever to throw a shutout?
>: And most of this for perhaps the worst team of the 1970's?
>
>Well, there's your problem. You're basic your argument on numbers! As a
>certain Canadian is never shy about telling us, the numbers don't mean
>anything. Obviously those sportswriters saw this guy play much more than you
>or I and know all about his intangibles. He undoubtedly won all those games
>late in the year after the pennant had been decided in a selfish bid to pad
>his own stats and is now getting the contempt from knowledgable baseball
>people that he so richly deserves, right?
>
>Note for the sarcasm-impaired: sprinkle liberally with :-)'s.
>
>: Phil Niekro deserves to be in the hall of fame.  Period.
>
>Yup. Very possibly more than Reggie does.

first let me say that i agree that Niekro belongs in the HOF, based on
both his numbers and his intangibles. and i will let Roger react to your
jab at him in his Own Special Way. but i would make one caveat: use of
statistics to assess performance, and use of statistics to assess "fame",
whatever that means, are two different things.

i am making a subtle distinction. basically, i am saying that i think
intanglibles may not be valid inclusions in judging ERA or defensive 
averages, they *are* valid in assessing worthiness for the hall of fame.
this does not rule out Niekro; but it does challenge any assertion
that he deserves to be in more than Reggie. the HOF should be based on
total contribution to the game, which can and should include intangibles.

as i dust off my asbestos undies, i would give one more example of what i
mean, which is actually the flip side of the "intangibles" coin -- i
have heard some of the same "ignorant, stupid, general wastes
of brain tissue" that denied Niekro entrance, claim that Nolan Ryan
isn't deserving of entrance because his W/L % is too low. this is of
course utter foolishness, and it demonstrates that reliance on
particular statistics can be a two-edged sword in talking about the HOF.
maybe the only valid conclusion is that the writers are fools for
*various* reasons, and leave it at that.

--
charles
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: nlu@Xenon.Stanford.EDU (Nelson Lu)
Subject: Re: Justice and Gant
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University.
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 23:48:57 GMT

In article <8528@news.duke.edu> fls@econ.duke.edu (Forrest Smith) writes:
>
>	The Braves should certainly consider trading off both Gant and Justice
>while they are worth something.
>	Justice is a Big Baby.  That's what we call him--the Big Baby.  He has
>too much money and too big of a film career ahead of him to care enough about

How much money does he make, anyway?  Can't be that much.  I don't think he's
eligible for arbitration yet.

>baseball to live up to his potential.  He does not like playing in Atlanta and
>he will turn Free Agent and leave when he can, anyway.  He is, however, a good
>defensive player, because he has a great arm.  He's certainly not as fast as
>the Braves' fast outfield, but who is?

Well, if you are worried about him leaving as a free agent, it won't happen
for another three years.

===============================================================================
GO CALIFORNIA ANGELS!
===============================================================================
Nelson Lu (claudius@leland.stanford.edu)
From: RVESTERM@vma.cc.nd.edu
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Baby Ruth
Date: 12 Jan 93 00:12:36 GMT
 <1993Jan8.215953.11772@informix.com>
Distribution: na

grover cleveland's birthplace is about five miles from my home.
it's a small brown house, preserved as a national park or monument
or some such.

i'm sure you all absolutely love knowing this.

bob vesterman.
From: fierkelab@bchm.biochem.duke.edu
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Cecil signs :-( :-( :-(
Date: 12 Jan 93 19:54:28 GMT
Organization: Biochemistry

In article <1993Jan12.081011.27522@Princeton.EDU>
niepornt@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (David Marc Nieporent) writes:
>In article <1993Jan11.164050.27334@athena.mit.edu> frisch1@athena.mit.edu
(Jonathan Katz) writes:

>>Besides, and this will probably get a lot of flaming, I think that had he not
>>missed time in Japan, he would now be on the way to a HOF career.
>
>Remember, the reason he *went* to Japan was because he couldn't get
>playing time.  If he had stayed in the US, he wouldn't have had a career
>at all, most likely.
>
>Now, he missed a grand total of *1* year (1989) in Japan.  That one year
>wasn't going to give him a HOF career, unless he hit 80 HRs in the US or
>something.
>

Not to defend Fielder or his contract, there is something to be said here. 
Fielder got stuck behind an excellent first baseman in Fred McGriff.  To
maximize Fielder's value, the Jays platooned him.  Fielder then drew the
 "can only hit against lefties...  Therefore, when he becomes a free agent, his
choices become Japan or more platooning.

(Fielder hits righthanded, right?  My mental picture is drawing a blank 
here.  If he hits lefty, then he'd only be able to hit righties.  Let's see,
I'm pretty sure that the Crime Dog hits lefty, being an inverterbrate Braves
fan who watches 85% NL.  Go No DH!  Enough digressing here.  Anyhow, if 
McGriff bats lefty, than the natural platoon would be a righty, 
to state the obvious)

At the time Fielder came up, there were probably 6 to 8 ML teams that could
have stood to make a change at first base.  If Fielder had come up with 
one of those teams, then he MAY have become a productive regular early 
in his career.  Combine that with his prodigious power output, and you are
looking at someone with an outside shot at the HOF, regardless of other
negatives.  I know, I know, there are a lot of ifs and buts and maybes
in this analysis, but it COULD have happened.  After all, whether we like it
or not, the HOF is selected by the BBWA.  Tons of power, lots of RBI's, it
would have been hard to keep him out.  

Eric Roush			Deck us all with Boston Charlie
fierkelab@			Walla Walla Wash and Kalamazoo!
bchm.biochem.duke.edu	Nora's freezin' on the Trolley,
				Swaller Dollar Cauliflower Alla-ga-Roo!

				Walt Kelley
From: genetic+@pitt.edu (Dr. Dave)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Klesko/Arizona League
Date: 12 Jan 93 19:27:37 GMT
Organization: Department of Industrial Engineering

Thus spake chee1l5@Jane.UH.EDU:(Sam Lane)
>
>and of course the ringer
>                          League    AB   H  HR  BB   BA   OBP  SLG  OPS
>Juan Gonzalez (Rangers)    PR       59  22  7    6  .373 .431 .864 1.294

ObWow:

The scary part is that Babe Ruth did essentially that for two full seasons
in the American League...

-- 
       David Tate        |"Out of the dugout endlessly swinging,
 dtate@unix.cis.pitt.edu | Out of the manager's throat, the sound fundamentals,
 Prof. of Story Problems | Out of the six-month season..."            
 Member ORSA, TIMS, SABR | 	Walt "Lefty" Whitman
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: niguma@ug.cs.dal.ca (Gordon Niguma)
Subject: Re: Astros Contenders?
Organization: Math, Stats & CS, Dalhousie University, Halifax, NS, Canada
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 04:21:30 GMT

In <Jan.6.22.37.20.1993.23150@pilot.njin.net> gajarsky@pilot.njin.net (Bob Gajarsky - Hobokenite) writes:

>gord - i think yu're being a bit hard on anthony and cedeno.  both 
> players are not garbage...a .407 slugging in the astrodome isn't bad,
> y'know (anthony), and i think he'll improve to .320 / .430 this year,
> if playing full time.  cedeno was awful last year, but i think he'll improve
> as well, to .290/.400.  which isn't awful for a shortstop.
 
 Bob,
 You do make decent points and perhaps I was harsh. I did think about park 
factors but the OBP's posted by Anthony makes him clearly below average. Cedeno
was awful as you agree.
 The main point was that if you look at the Astros team you don't see a whole
lot that makes you think they can win 90 games as one poster stated. I think
people are looking at the Astros and saying "Hey they won 81 games last year.
Swindell and Drabek add 7-8 wins and expansion adds a few more". The factor
of expansion and the new pitchers may add those extra wins as could the   
improvement of their young players. But there are other very strong factors
which are pushing them backwards also. I think 85 W's is more than fair but
when I look at their players I think sub-.500. I'd pencil them in at 81 myself
but I'll give them 85 for the benefit of the doubt. Maybe I'm an idiot for
doing so.

						Gord Niguma
						(fav player: John Olerud)

-- 
In Stores Now:
The brand new album from Gord Niguma, Chris Nantes and Sean Andrews!
Songs Include: Yesterday My Hamster Died, The Death Of Kirby Puckett,
               Let Love In, Alcoholic Santa Claus......Get your copy today!
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: rja@mahogany126.cray.com (Russ Anderson)
Subject: Re: The Minnesota Twins
Originator: rja@mahogany126
Organization: The 1991 World Champion Minnesota Twins!
Date: 12 Jan 93 09:56:51 CST


In article <93008.004857MV013374@NDSUVM1.BITNET>, steve eliason <MV013374@NDSUVM1.BITNET> writes:
>        I just want to say I am a big Twins fan and wish them the best of
> luck this year. I predict that they will be untouchable if and only if
> they get their hands on a decent pitcher.

Hey, they signed Jim Deshays & Bert Blyleven.  What more do you want?  :-)

-- 
Russ Anderson    |  Disclaimer: Any statements are my own and do not reflect
------------------              upon my employer or anyone else.  (c) 1992
EX-Twins' Jack Morris, 10 innings pitched, 0 runs (World Series MVP!)
Xref: sparky rec.sport.baseball:37371 soc.women:22475 soc.men:22507
Date: Sunday, 10 Jan 1993 11:40:21 EST
From: <RVESTERM@vma.cc.nd.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball,soc.women,soc.men
Subject: Re: Women Sports Reporters
 <8JAN199319225196@pierre.mit.edu> <1993Jan9.182640.944@uoft02.utoledo.edu>
 <1993Jan10.074710.12435@Princeton.EDU>

jeez, i've been away from the net for weeks, and this idiotic thread
is still the hottest thing around.

repeat after me:

no locker room interviews no locker room interviews no locker room interviews

there.  now does anyone not see the obvious answer to this moronic dilemma?
so must we keep arguing about something so blatant?

bob vesterman.
From: kbos@carina.unm.edu (K. Mitchell Bose)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: The Monthly Mattingly Flame War
Date: 11 Jan 1993 22:17:17 GMT
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque
Distribution: usa
NNTP-Posting-Host: carina.unm.edu

In article <1993Jan11.155654.27953@cs.cornell.edu> tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer) writes:
>In article <1993Jan10.060733.5546@midway.uchicago.edu> thf2@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>>A controversy isn't the mere gainsaying of what the 
>>other person says...
>
>Is Too!
>
>-Valentine

Nuh-uh!!

-Arbor

(Naah, that doesn't have the same ring to it...)

-- 
Kurt Bose (as in Daisy, not Rose) * kbos@carina.unm.edu * Walks: not that sexy.
"Halt!  Based on conclusive dental evidence that truly bites, I arrest you 
 hereby for the murdering of the dead Belzic Tascar.  I am obliged to warn you 
 that my weapons are registered as offensive fronds!!"- R.M.Allen, "Monkey See"
From: luigi@sgi.com (Randy Palermo)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: The Best First-base Player in !993
Date: 11 Jan 93 21:47:23 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc., Mountain View, CA

In article <C0M6pC.IIp@news.iastate.edu> vbdiep@iastate.edu (Vinh Diep) writes:
>
>	While many of you are arguing about Will Clark and Frank Thomas, and 
>one is better than the other, one player that some of you seem to ignore will
>surprise baseball fans in 1993. That All-Star first-baseman is DON MATTINGLY.
> 	Any questions?

Yes, considering that he hasn't had a decent year since 1989 and has 
back problems what would you base this on?

luigi
--
Randy Palermo   luigi@csd.sgi.com    Fax: (415)961-6502
Silicon Graphics Computer Systems, 2011 N. Shoreline Blvd Mt. View, CA 94039
"Play an accordion, go to jail. That's the LAW"
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: scott@asd.com (Scott Barman)
Subject: Re: Lies about attendance (Was Speculation Of A Coming Orioles Sale)
Organization: American Software Development Corp., West Babylon, NY
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 18:12:54 GMT

In article <C0I380.LL2@chinet.chi.il.us> prb@chinet.chi.il.us (Paul Botts) writes:
>There is one very big difference between the owners and players in the
>ongoing tussle over shares of baseball's revenue pie: whereas the
>players' share (salaries) is publicly reported, the owners' share
>(profits) is not. So the one side is much freer to play fast and loose
>with the facts.

There is a way to get the facts on the finances of some of the
ballclubs.  Any team that is owned by a company publicly traded on one
of the stock exchanges has to file an annual report, according to
Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) guidelines.  The problem is
that the SEC does not say how the catagories are supposed to be broken
down.  For example, I am told that Annheiser-Busch (they own the St.
Louis Cardinals, for those who do not know), have the Cardianls under
the division of "A-B Entertainment Services."  The problem is that under
that division are entities such as Busch Gardens.  You can get somewhat
of an idea from their Annual Report, but not a good one.

Remember, this is for companies that are publicly traded.  The
partnership that owns the Yankees and Sterling-Doubleday Enterprises,
LP, who owns the Mets, are private companies so getting information is
difficult (not impossible, there are ways of getting some information on
these companies).

Also, I wonder if someone like Marge Schott owns the shares to the Reds
or her dealership business owns the shares.  Now it might not apply to
Schott, but if the other business was publicly traded, the financial
gains and losses on those share has to be reported in an annual report.

There is information on all of this in various places.  Those of us who
do job searches and investigates the companies they receive offers from,
know about some of these outlets.  I wonder why some smart journalist
(an oxymoron?) hasn't figured it out?
-- 
scott barman			| <This space intentionally left blank>
scott@asd.com			|
 (I can barely speak for myself, you expect me to speak for my employer??)