From: dgilly@us.oracle.com (Daniel Gilly)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: race based fetishes
Date: 7 Jan 93 22:23:31 GMT
Organization: Oracle Corporation, Redwood Shores CA 94065
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In article <1993Jan7.092800.28240@netcom.com> cjlee@netcom.com 
    (Caroline Jean Lee) writes:

>Tigua's post struck  a familiar chord in me.

I've been noticing a common experience in recent weeks here:

1) Nelson objects when older men admire him for being young.
2) Brent objects when men admire him because his penis is large.
3) Tigua objects when white men admire him because he is black.
4) And now Caroline voices a similar objection to Asian fetishes.

I've been intrigued to learn about the ways people feel
objectified.  I'm not invalidating the experiences that have been
presented, but for me personally, I'm flattered whenever someone
finds me desirable because of, for example, my body type or
complexion or height or age, etc., or any combination of these.

As Joe Francis pointed out in responding to Brent, we often
discount the motives of those who desire us for the "wrong"
reasons.  "Wrong" reasons seem to be anything that makes us feel
exploited or devalued.  So I can see how I, too, would soon be
annoyed if someone's initial attraction to me did not lead to an
appreciation of my thoughts, feelings, interests, etc.  (Assuming
I'm seeking companionship as opposed to short-term
physical gratification.)

After reading the articles from people who have felt devalued, I
was wondering on what basis it might be okay for someone to find
someone else attractive.  Would it be okay, for example, for a
white motas (member of the appropriate sex) to find your dark
complexion erotic as an initial "hook" to motivate getting to know
you better, provided that they eventually support your philosophy
and hobbies (or in some way see you as a complete person)?

>Because I am Asian, I have run into lots and lots of white men with
>Asian fetishes, especially before I came out as a lesbian.

This situation probably involves a power imbalance between men and women 
in addition to the cross-cultural stereotypes.

>And yes, I think those fetishes are racist.  I have found it very
>dehumanizing and hurtful to interact with men with Asian fetishes,
>even when they were otherwise sensitive and kind, or when I only knew
>about the fetish afterwards.

>It's important to remember that in our society, "race" is a loaded
>term, and it carries a lot of baggage with it that does not have
>anything to do with physical appearance.  People have a lot 
>of stereotypes floating around in their heads, folks, whether
>they're aware of it or not. 

The question is, who is carrying the baggage:  (1) the white male 
who's fond of black males because of a stereotypical expectation/myth -- 
e.g., presuming they'll have bigger penises? or (2) the black male
who's assuming an objectification where there might be none?

>For example, one of my co-workers is often mistaken for Latino.  He
>has seen people's interest in him change dramatically when they
>find out that he is Asian. 

You suggest that it's wrong for people's attitudes to change
upon learning your co-worker is Asian.  And yet, 2 paragraphs above,
you state that *your* attitude toward certain white men changed
*after* you discovered they have an Asian fetish.  I'm afraid I
don't understand this.  It seems inconsistent.  How did this
discovery change your opinion?

>Having to interact with men who see your race first, and the rest of
>you after that, has been a common experience in the lives of all the
>Asian women I know, and of many ofthe gay Asian men I know.  Those
>often hurtful interactions with men with Asian fetishes are part of
>what it has meant to be an Asian American woman in this country.

I'm unclear about this.  What do you mean when you say men see 
your *race*?  (Let me use a GWM/GAM example, since I'm more familiar 
with this.)  For example:

Does "seeing race" refer to men who are attracted to physical traits --
dark hair/eyes/complexion and (often) hairless bodies?  Or does it
refer to men who are attracted to stereotypes of *behavior* --
submissiveness, "still-waters-run-deep" quietness, vulnerability.
Is the first one okay, or are these equally bad in your view?

>For myself, in the mixed-up time as I was coming out and getting over
>my flurries of heterosexual activity, I decided that I would not date
>white men anymore because of the associations of colonialism,
>mail-order brides, exoticism, etc., as well as the possibility that
>once again, the person might be attracted to me because of my race and
>because of the associations he might have about Asians.

I can certainly understand this. 

In fact, I can identify with it, in my own way.  :-) 
I decided I would not date women anymore because of the
associations with my becoming a father, being able to fix a car,
being physically strong, tall, etc., as well as the possibility that
-- because of their associations about my being male -- they would 
once again be attracted only to my mind.  :-)/2

To sum up, I can see that your experiences have been hurtful to you,
and indeed racist in your case.

But I'm still trying to understand what constitutes racism in general
versus what constitutes an acceptable physical attraction for the
"exotic other".

Cheers,
   Daniel
-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------
Daniel Gilly                                 Oracle Corporation
dgilly@us.oracle.com                         Redwood Shores, CA
Newsgroups: soc.motss