HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: warren@nysernet.org (Warren Burstein)
Subject: Re: On the 'natural' order (was Yom Kippur and Tu b'Av)
Reply-To: warren@nysernet.org
Organization: Mail to News Gateway at Wang Labs
Date: 7 Sep 92 15:11:00 GMT

ms = MASH@WEIZMANN.WEIZMANN.AC.IL (Michael Shimshoni)
dg = gertler@ptms_dev.sbi.com (User - Don Gertler)

dg: chatan and kallah (bride and groom)

ms: Just a minor point.  The order was changed in translation, "chatan and
ms: kallah"  became   "bride  and  groom".    Just  a  mistake,   or  some
ms: uncomfortable feeling when using a modern western language to stick to
ms: the usual preference given in religious texts to the males?

[This article is close-captioned for the sarcasm-impaired]

In Hebrew, the bride comes second because she is superior and the
superior comes last.  In English, because it's written backwards, the
bride comes first.

P.S. It is because women are superior that in some modern Jewish
divorces the ancient custom of the man paying money to the woman has
been replaced by the woman paying money to the man in exchange for the
divorce.
-- 
/|/-\/-\       Amar Rav Nachman Bar Yitzchak:
 |__/__/_/     "P'amim sheadam ba b'sharav
 |warren@      v'rochetz afilu b'mai mishrah"
/ nysernet.org 			Jerusalem
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.polish
From: saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (samuel.saal)
Subject: Document that! (was Re: Violent antisemitism?)
Organization: liver ---> spleen
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 12:28:10 GMT

In article <matthew.715669709@munna> matthew@.cs.mu.oz (Maciek
Blasikiewicz) writes:

>Do you have statistics indicating "that the individual poles were
>anti-semitic"? I mean, what percentage were so, to what extent, etc.

I find it most interesting that after twisting and turning to find ways of
minimizing Polish antisemitism, the final recourse is to demand
documentation, statistics, and other numbers to gain time for another
round of twisting and revisionism.

Take a hint.  Many of the descriptions come from personal and family
descriptions and experience.  There are an awful lot of us who have family
that survived but lost other family members to Polish antisemitism.  Some
of us can still point out that there were Poles that did help Jews  or
that weren't antisemitic.
-- 
Sam Saal      kingfish!saal OR saal@kingfish.att.com
	Vayiftach HaShem et Peah Ha`Aton
From: hayim@locus.com (Hayim Hendeles)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Jews in space.
Date: 11 Sep 92 23:48:20 GMT
Organization: Locus Computing Corporation, Los Angeles, California

In article <1992Sep11.145515.27775@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca> jgoldber@todah.chem.utoronto.ca (Joel Goldberg) writes:
>In article <1961@ceylon.gte.com> sgutfreund@gte.com writes:
>>In article <1992Sep10.144514.25461@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca>, jgoldber@todah.chem.utoronto.ca (Joel Goldberg) writes:
>>|>   Before Judith Resnick (A"H) went on her first flight, the Chief
>>|>   Rabbinate of Israel issued a ruling that there is no shabbat in space.
>>I would be interested in knowing the basis on which
>>they came to that decision (and if it was both chief Rabbis).
>  Sorry, it was just a throwaway remark in a news story (most likely
>  Jerusalem Post) I read at the time. I have no other info.


I find it difficult to believe that the Rabbinate issued
such a ruling 'halacha l'maase' (for actual practice). Perhaps
the Jerusalem Post misquoted, or misunderstood the actual wording.

I heard on a tape from Rabbi Frand on this topic, that 
someone once advanced an argument based on a Gemara in Kiddushin
to this affect, but not that this could be used in practice.

Hayim Hendeles
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (samuel.saal)
Subject: Re: On the SUPERIOR Role of Women
Organization: liver ---> spleen
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 12:21:16 GMT

In article <1992Sep10.171931.623857@locus.com> hayim@locus.com (Hayim
Hendeles) writes:

->In article <2550@israel.nysernet.org> warren@nysernet.org writes:

->> Tradition is believing
->> that "nashim daatan kalot" is connected to X chromosomes rather than
->> the society in which the women were raised.  Traditions like this
->> scare me.  Resposes like this scare me more.

->If you want to know what it does mean, look at the way it is used
->in the Talmud, in Shabbos 32b (or 33b -- I'm writing from memory).
->There we find Rabbi Shimon Bar Yochai under the threat of a death
->sentence by the Roman government. He went into hiding, where only
->his wife knew his whereabouts. When the persecution grew fiercer,
->and the Romans had launched a massive investigation as to his
->whereabouts, he was afraid that under extreme pressure and torture,
->his wife would cave in and reveal his whereabouts. Or in the
->words of Chazal, "nashim daatan Kalot". 

->Most certainly, this was not meant to be derragatory.

Seems like a deeper hole.  Why should a woman necessarily succomb to
torture more readily than a man?  I'll grant that each would succomb to
different methods, but I don't see why one is any better able to
withstand than the other.
-- 
Sam Saal      kingfish!saal OR saal@kingfish.att.com
	Vayiftach HaShem et Peah Ha`Aton
Xref: sparky soc.culture.jewish:15522 soc.culture.polish:2438
From: goldberg@techunix.technion.ac.il (Jacques Goldberg)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.polish
Subject: Re: Violent antisemitism?
Date: 7 Sep 92 07:58:59 GMT
Organization: Technion, Israel Institute of Technology

matthew@stats.mu.oz.au (Maciek Blasikiewicz) writes:

>A few days ago W.Dobosiewicz quoted from a pre-WWII Polish Yearbook:

>| Nonetheless, the number of Jewish university students (by religion)
>| dropped from 9.7 thousand in 1932 to 4.8 thousand in 1937 (but still,
>| Jews accounted for 10% of all students and 9.8% of the population).
>| In year 1936/37, exactly 25% of PhD given by universities in Poland went
>| to people of "Moses faith".


>MB
    Nonetheless WHAT? 
    What does this say, if not what I claim, that admission of Jews was
limited?
 YYG
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: gertler@ptms_dev.sbi.com (User - Don Gertler)
Subject: Re: eish (not Aish) (was Re: Mac David)
Originator: scj@israel.nysernet.org
Reply-To: <gertler@ptms_dev.sbi.com (User - Don Gertler)>
Organization: Nysernet
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 17:34:46 GMT

saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (samuel.saal) writes:

> What is eish tanur?

It's similar to a felafel, but rolled into an Iraqi pita instead
of pocketed into a generic one.  It's overflowing with techina,
and must, according to all opinions, be drenched with s'chug (spelled
zayin-chet-vav-quf, if I'm not mistaken).

Iraqi pita is much larger ("the mother of all pitas") and softer
than the regular stuff.  It may also be sweeter.  It's probably
baked with wheat of a higher gluten content (spring wheat), giving
it more stretch.

-Don Gertler
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: warren@nysernet.org (Warren Burstein)
Subject: Re: On Qadish
Reply-To: warren@nysernet.org
Organization: Mail to News Gateway at Wang Labs
Date: 7 Sep 92 06:57:46 GMT

jg = goldberg@techunix.technion.ac.il (Jacques Goldberg)
mw = weiner@theory.lcs.mit.edu (Merril Weiner)

mw: It might arise from the minhag of not saying Kaddish when both of
mw: your parents are living (sounds more like superstition than minhag).

me: I've always wanted to know how to distinguish between Torah and
me: superstition.  "al tiftach peh lasatan" appears in the Midrash.

jg: Could you please clarify the question? I do not see the connection
jg: between the two parts of your last paragraph ... unless you hesitate
jg: between Torah and superstition when asking HaShem to open our hearts 
jg: or our eyes! Indeed our Sages have taught us a lot about how "fine" a mouth
jg: can do to produce evil, and it's SO easier to open that just a tiny 
jg: microbit of heart, you know, just the size of a needle thread hole.

My question is how to distinguish between valid minhagim and
superstition.  It is possible to find a source for a person whose
parents are alive not saying kaddish in "al tiftach peh lasatan".
Likewise, I'm sure that a source could be found for other customs.

I'm quite confused by what hearts and eyes have to do with this (other
than the word "open"), or what connection there is between forbidden
speech (what I understand the part about "a mouth can do to produce
evil" to refer to) and "al tiftach peh lasatan".  While the latter
phrase certainly could be allegorically understood to be talking about
forbidden speech, the meaning to which I referred is not to say or do
things that imply that a tragedy has happened or might happen, and I
think this is the original meaning.

And what is the relevance of opening one's heart by the smallest
amount (a reference to Teshuvah, which we should all be doing at all
times, and especially now)?  While it is very important to do this,
will this help one understand which minhagim are valid, and which are
superstition?

Of course someone who already knows the difference should make an
effort to observe the former and avoid the latter.  But a desire to
be closer to God alone won't teach a person how to do a better job of
keeping the Mitzvot.
-- 
/|/-\/-\       Amar Rav Nachman Bar Yitzchak:
 |__/__/_/     "P'amim sheadam ba b'sharav
 |warren@      v'rochetz afilu b'mai mishrah"
/ nysernet.org 			Jerusalem
From: sg04@ploni.gte.com (Yechezkal Shimon Gutfreund)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Jews in space.
Date: 11 Sep 92 14:22:19 GMT
Reply-To: sgutfreund@gte.com
Organization: GTE Laboratories, Waltham MA

In article <1992Sep10.144514.25461@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca>, jgoldber@todah.chem.utoronto.ca (Joel Goldberg) writes:
|>   Before Judith Resnick (A"H) went on her first flight, the Chief
|>   Rabbinate of Israel issued a ruling that there is no shabbat in space.

I would be interested in knowing the basis on which
they came to that decision (and if it was both chief Rabbis).

I am familiar with R. Goren's reasoning that was given
many years earlier on this subject.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Yechezkal Shimon Gutfreund		 		  sgutfreund@gte.com
GTE Laboratories, Waltham MA			    harvard!bunny!sgutfreund
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (samuel.saal)
Subject: Re: Nazi camps
Organization: liver ---> spleen
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 12:21:37 GMT

In article <36992@uflorida.cis.ufl.edu> lbs@neptune.phys.ufl.edu (Lech Borkowski) writes:

> and higher than that of many Americans. That reminds me of a typical
>argument used by the government in Beijing that they brought 
>civilization to Tibet. A golden cage is a cage. 
>BUT: I don't want to get involved in a debate regarding
>the Arab-Israeli relations. We were discussing the Polish-Jewish
>relations here and let's keep that way.

Look back at who started this tangent and why.  It was started by a Pole
who was trying to avoid issues in Polish socio-history.  It didn't work
and now even other Poles are trying to get away from the tangent.
-- 
Sam Saal      kingfish!saal OR saal@kingfish.att.com
	Vayiftach HaShem et Peah Ha`Aton
From: william@bcarh472.NoSubdomain.NoDomain (William Moss)
Subject: Re: Bingo
Organization: Bell Northern Research, Ottawa, Ontario Canada
Distribution: na
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 92 19:01:48 GMT

In article <1992Sep15.170144.23158@cs.tulane.edu>, js@cs.tulane.edu (Jan Silbermann) writes:
|> 
|> >>Just how widespread is Jewish Bingo?
|> 
|> >>-Matthew P Wiener (weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu)

It's quite widespread here in Ottawa. All the shuls here, as well as at
least two of the schools are heavily supported by bingo. At least four of
the local bingo halls in town are owned (at least in part) by Jewish charities.

|>  Our orthodox shul has had Bingo for many years. My husband goes to
|>  help out every week. He finds the whole thing morally reprehensible.
|>  It is difficult for him to watch people close to the poverty-line
|>  squander away their hard-earned money.  Unfortunately, the shul
|>  has no other choice but to use Bingo as a fund-raiser.  We cannot
|>  generate enough revenue with dues alone.

That's the general view here, too. "Ya, well I don't
like it either, but if you don't have a better fund-raising idea, that's
what we're doing" is the best argument anyone has ever offered for it.
At least we no longer hold the bingo in our shul building.

|>   It seems that the use of Bingo is quite widespread in shuls and
|>  dayschools.  Does anyone else find this problematic at best, or
|>  very wrong at worst?  What can shuls do to replace such a lucrative
|>  fund-raiser?

I don't know. I grew up in Montreal, where, if there were bingos going on, 
they were much less widespread than here.
-- 
===========================================================================
William G. Moss                      disclaimer: not the views of BNR or NT
Bell-Northern Research Ltd., Ottawa  +1 613 763 8108 WILLIAM@BNR.CA  
===========================================================================
From: ehrlich@bimacs.BITNET (Gideon Ehrlich)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Neve Shalom
Date: 11 Sep 92 07:11:55 GMT
Organization: Math department, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, ISRAEL

In article <1992Sep10.234855.31@apap4> karner@apap4.pap.univie.ac.at writes:
>
>      Hi...I would like to have some information about the settlement
>      Neve Shalom (where it exactly is, how many people of each religion
>      live there, when it was founded, ....

Neve Shalom was founded about 20 years ago . It is located about half
the way Ramle-Jerusalem. Since its purpose is demonstrating
tolleration among people it is located out but close to the areas
occupied by Jordan till 67. there are about 6 families, their
religions are not well defined since there  while being there there
were some mix-marriage cases among the settlers.
The daily Mariv reports about their bitter struggle for love and peace
among the group during the gulf-war when  Arab members of the group
supported Saddam Hussein scuding Israel and the others opposed that.
Over all that group is meaningless, almost no one even know they
acctualy exist, but still it is an interesting minor sociological
expirience.
From: faigin@aero.org (Daniel P. Faigin)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Synagogue Financing
Date: 14 Sep 92 09:34:17
Organization: The Aerospace Corporation, El Segundo, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: soldan.aero.org
In-reply-to: wwalker@bbn.com's message of 14 Sep 92 15:11:56 GMT

On 14 Sep 92 15:11:56 GMT, wwalker@bbn.com (Ward Walker) said:
> It appears to me that dues at a traditional synagogue are significantly lower
> than those at a non-orthodox synagogue.  What are the reasons for the great
> difference?  

I can think of a few. First of all, the Orthodox synagogues do not have to pay
the UAHC membership fees, which (from what I understand) can be quite high.
They also tend to be physically smaller, with less ornate facilities. This
results in smaller building funds, as well as less interest expense for the
construction. The congregations also have smaller memberships, resulting in
lower support staff costs (fewer office personnel). I'd also venture to guess
that Rabbinic and Cantorial salaries are lower. Lastly (and this is a joke,
son), they save all that money by turning off the electricity on Friday night
:-). 

> In my immediate area, the non-orthodox synagogues' dues are about
> $1000 for a family membership.  

That's a bit high. I just came from a 300-400 member family Reform
congregation with dues in that range. The new one we are (re)joining is
smaller, and has dues in the 400-600$ range (more with kids), along with a
dues special.

You might want to check out some back issues of the mail.liberal-judaism list
where this has been discussed in detail. In particular:

	Cost and Income [v2n7-v2n8]
	Cost of Judaism [v1n65-v1n67]
	Costs and Income [v2n9-v2n10]
	High cost [v1n74]
	High Cost of Judaism [v1n68-v1n69]
	High Cost of Judaism (full circle) [v1n73-v1n74]
	High cost of Judaism / High Holidays [v1n70-v1n73, v1n75, v2n2, v2n4, v2n6]
	High Cost of Judaism / High Holiday Services [v2n1]
	Synagogue Funding in General [v1n3]
	Synagogue high holiday policy [v1n69]
	Thoughts on Funding Synagogues  [v1n9-v1n12]

Daniel
Moderator, Liberal Judaism Mailing List
--
[W]:The Aerospace Corp. M1/055 * POB 92957 * LA, CA 90009-2957 * 310/336-8228
[Email]:faigin@aerospace.aero.org              [Vmail]:310/336-5454 Box#13149
   "You can't be a rationalist in an irrational world. It isn't rational!"
	       Dr. Rance, in Joe Orton's "What the Butler Saw"
From: hrubin@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Rubin Herman)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: The Location of Eden (Re: Torah In A Torah Context)
Date: 13 Sep 92 00:37:57 GMT
Organization: Purdue University Statistics Department

In article <BuDDFA.E8v@sun3.vlsi.uwaterloo.ca> ward@sun17.vlsi.uwaterloo.ca (Paul Ward) writes:
>[H Rubin wondering why Eden has not been found]
>
>Perhaps the answer lies in 2 Kings 6:8-23.  (Specifically vs. 15-17).

God can keep us from seeing Eden.  But then why tell us so much about it,
and why have it guarded by winged creatures instead of just putting up
a force field?  Or even just remove it from earth?
-- 
Herman Rubin, Dept. of Statistics, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette IN47907-1399
Phone: (317)494-6054
hrubin@snap.stat.purdue.edu (Internet, bitnet)  
{purdue,pur-ee}!snap.stat!hrubin(UUCP)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: MASH@WEIZMANN.WEIZMANN.AC.IL (Michael Shimshoni)
Subject: Lehavdil, Yibadel (was On the SUPERIOR Role of Women)
Organization: Mail to News Gateway at Wang Labs
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 92 15:32:13 +0200

In: <1992Sep8.122222.28912@umbc3.umbc.edu>
shimoff@umbc4.umbc.edu (Eliot Shimoff)  stated:

>Michael Shimshoni wrote:
>>>>                        Any woman, also every  child bearing *gentile*
>>>>woman, is closer to God's acts than not just Moses, the Ba'al Shem Tov
>>>>but even  lehavdil the  present Lubavicher Rebbe  and the  Mashiah (in
>>>>case this is  not a repetition of a previously  mentioned person), all
>>>>just males and thus further from God.
>>>>
>
>And David Kaufman replied:
>>>Ignoring Michael's uncharacteristic rancor: one does not say
>>>"lehavdil" about Jews. Whatever one's level of observance, the
>>>commonality of being Jewish transcends differences.
>>
>
>Then Michael said:
>>Ignoring the  partial compliment  David pays me,  I wonder  from where
>>David got to state that one does  not say lehavdil about Jews (BTW let
>>it be the worst of my sins...).   If I have not missed anything on the
>>news  the  Lubavicher   Rebbe  is  still  alive   (till  120!),  while
>>unfortunately  the Ba'al  Shem  Tov is  not.  I  once  learned to  say
>>lehavdil when  one mentions  a living  person after  a person  who had
>>died.  Am I wrong EVEN ON THAT?
>
>What was uncharacteristic was not Michael's rancor (there wasn't any),
>but his typo error.  Lehavdil used used to distingish sacred from profane,
         ^^^^^^^^^^
>as in "The Torah says X, but Shulamit Aloni, lehavdil, says Y."  Lehavdil
>means, in effect, "there's no comparison."
>
>Michael meant to say "yibadel l'chaim" (roughly, be distinguished for
>life").  The phrase is commonly used when referring to two individuals,
>one of which remains alive.  As in "the Ba'al Shem Tov and, yebadel
>l'chaim, the Lubavitcher Rebbe."
>
>Over the years, I have come to suspect Michael of many things, but never
                                ^^^^^^^
>rancor, sin'at chinam, or unnecessary nastiness.  (Of course, I also
>never suspected he would make such a typographical error!)

Eliot is too nice,  but this was no typo.  Call  it anything you like,
ignorance, forgetfulness, senility but no typo.  I meant what I wrote,
when I  wrote it,  and I  was wrong.  I  did mix  up the  two concepts
lehavdil and yibadel, and the moment  I saw Eliot's posting I realized
that he was right.

Eliot, be careful in suspecting me, especially so close to Yom Kippur.
Remember Hahoshed  biksherim loke begufo,  and this could  be painful!
:-)

Enjoy your fast.

>Eliot Shimoff                  |    n   n   n

 Michael Shimshoni
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: strnlght@netcom.com (David Sternlight)
Subject: Re: Torah In A Torah Context (was Re: more of ...can of worms....)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 92 10:45:58 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)


If I read Herman Rubin's response correctly, the evidence he cites
for his assertion that the putative area for the Garden of Eden
"has been explored thoroughly" is "geography books" and
"aerial and space photography". This sounds like a general waffle
rather than specific knowledge, and if so, supports the notion
that Rubin continues to make it up as he goes along.

Unless Rubin can cite specific, thorough, and detailed evidence
that this particular area has been explored in the detail necessary
to find archaelogical evidence for or against the location of
Gan Eden there, I'm forced to conclude that after all this fuss,
he is still operating using proof by assertion.

Hardly acceptable in a serious discussion.

David
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: geoffg@sco.COM (geoff galitz)
Subject: Re: Auschvitz and $$$ & The Ontario Press Council
Organization: The Santa Cruz Operation, Inc.
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 14:28:57 GMT


In article <7229@bigbird.hri.com.hri.com> roman@sparc17.hri.com (Roman Budzianowski) writes:
>
>In what way Poland should measure up to Norway or Bulgaria. Bulgaria
>took part in the WWII on the side of Germany. Norway collaborated with
>Germany. Maybe if not for countries like Bulgaria and Norway, Hitler
>wouldn't have the opportunity for the "final solution" ?
>
>
>
	As I remember it (as if I remember the war, I'm 21), Norway
was occupied by Germany.  They did not collaborate.  I do
specifically remember Sweden selling resources and supplies to
Germany.
	Many teachers in Norway were taken to the concentration camps
when they refused to teach Nazi propaganda, but that doesn't prove
that "Norway" did not collaborate.  After all, who is "Norway?" 
	Is it the people, or the government?

-- 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
"Why don't you ask them?  You'll probably get just as a fanciful answer
from them, as our Bible gives us."   
	- Bishop Jose de Acosta on the origin of the Native Americans
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
         Geoff Galitz    geoffg@sco.com ** or ** galitz@igc.org
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: sethr@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (seth.r.rosenthal)
Subject: Re: Document that! (was Re: Violent antisemitism?)
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 13:02:56 GMT

In article <RLK.92Sep14161628@underprize.think.com>, rlk@underprize.think.com (Robert Krawitz) writes:
> In article <1992Sep14.162636.22211@cbnewsl.cb.att.com> sethr@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (seth.r.rosenthal) writes:
> 
> 						What was
>    left to be saved were some ghetto's like Lodz, and
>    Hungaries Jews.  Remember the attempt to buy Hungary's
>    Jews from Himmler?
> 
> I have a book (_A Million Jews To Save_) by Andre Biss that is about
> this.  However, it's clear from reading it that other people held very
> different opinions of it.  I'm curious about other literature on that
> subject (and other sides of that story).

I hope the opinion was at least, giving the Nazis money means
increasing the likelihood of their winning the war.  I must
admit in late 1943, it was over for them, and it was just
a matter of cleaning them out of all of Europe.  I don't think
money would do them much good; against the Red Army's practically
endless supply of men and the increasing American presence, the
Reich was doomed.   Particularly since by this time the air strikes
were pretty devastating to the German economy.

		Seth Rosenthal


Disclaimer: All opinions are my own not my employers'.