HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: JANIEMI@FINABO.ABO.FI (Jarmo Niemi TUY)
Subject: Bilingualism was re: Finnish defense
Organization: Abo Akademi University, Finland
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 10:40:06 GMT
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.24

In <staff.02oh@rabbit.augs.se> staff@rabbit.augs.se writes:

> I really shouldn't do this but I can't resist.
> 
> > 2.Why Sweden is not bilingual like Finland?
> 
> This question is very easy to answer. Finland was once a part of Sweden hence
> Finland is a bilingual country. If the situation had been the reverse and
> Sweden had been a part of Finland then Sweden would have been a bilingual
> country.

Or an equally simple answer: Finland is bilingual because the Finnish 
parliament, elected by Finnish citizens, has decided so. Sweden is not
bilingual because... I think you can guess the rest.

More to the point, independent Finland was _born_ as bilingual, because
the Swedish-speaking minority was larger and more influential at that
time, and besides, the language quarrels were suppressed because of the
common enemy of the russification programs by Imperial Russia. However
the parliament, which has an overwhelming majority of Finnish-speaking
representatives, has had ample opportunity to change this, but has chosen
not to. This, I think, is a wise decision.

Sweden, on the other hand, has always been officially unilingual (?)
and has not changed that. The immigrant minorities speaking other
native languages than Swedish have grown gradually, and the political
pressure to introduce one of them, probably Finnish, as an official 
language, has not been sufficient.

Ceterum censeo, the Finnish language should have a better position
in Sweden.

Jarmo Niemi   Biochemistry, University of Turku
              SF-20500 Turku
              ++358-21-6335758
              janiemi@finabo.abo.fi
From: gaetz@head-cfa.harvard.edu (Terrance J. Gaetz)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Closeness of the Nordic Languages
Date: 30 Dec 92 15:24:00 GMT
Organization: Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics

In article <STEINARB.92Dec30141552@tindved.idt.unit.no> steinarb@idt.unit.no (Steinar Bang) writes:
>
>> At least they belong to the same language family (indo-european
>> languages, germanic languages, to be more specific).
>
>To be even more specific:
> o English and German belongs to the eastern branch of the germanic
>   branch of the Indo-european family of languages.

A minor correction:
 o English and German belong to the *western* branch.  I believe the
   eastern branch is extinct; it is mainly known from a fragments of
   a 4th century bible written in Gothic.
--
Terry Gaetz  --  gaetz@cfa.harvard.edu
From: haavardf@boson.uio.no (Haavard Fosseng)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Learning Norwegian
Date: 30 Dec 92 23:03:51 GMT
Organization: University of Oslo, Norway

In article <59700006@hpscit.sc.hp.com> rog@hpscit.sc.hp.com (Roger Haaheim) writes:

   Well, all I can say is that my relatives in Norway laugh 
   harder when I try to speak Nynorsk than they do when I
   try to speak Bokmal...  


The fact that you have tried to speak nynorsk to them seems to imply that
they are from a part of Norway where nynorsk is a far more "natural"
choice of written standard than bokmaal. Their "harder laughter" may 
that an American accent sounds funnier whan superimposed on something
you're more familiar with.

On the other hand: Maybe bokmaal is so ugly to start with that a foreign
accent can't make it much worse? :-) :-) :-)

Seiously, though: As a lot of people have already mentioned, nearly all
non-native speakers who learn Norwegian, learn bokmaal. Those few who
learn nonorsk - or something close to it - would either be people 
with some kind of "special" reason to do so (e.g. linguists) or those
who learn the language by living in environment where something close
to nonorsk is spoken. As a result of this, foreigners who speak 
nynorsk would (I guess) tend to speak it well. In other words: Most
Norwegians are somewhat used to hearing bokmaal spoken with various
foreign accents, but not nynorsk.



H}vard Fosseng
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: janus@staff.tc.umn.edu ()
Subject: Re: Learning Norwegian
Organization: University of Minnesota
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 13:59:46 GMT

The International Summer School at the University of Oslo will again
offer a course in Nynorsk, as well as several levels of Bokmaal.  The
Nynorks course is meant for foreigners who already speak Bokmaal, but
want more familiarity with Nynorsk.  It is not designed to make
nynorsk speakers out of foreign Bokmaal speakers.  

For more information and an application to the ISS write to
the following address if you are in North America:

JoAnn Kleber
Oslo International Summer School
North American Admissions Office
c/o St. Olaf College
Northfield, MN 55057

e-mail: iss@stolaf.edu

-----
Louis Janus
From: lchoqu%asylum.cs.utah.edu@cs.utah.edu (Lee Choquette)
Subject: Anyone going to MacWorld?
Date: 27 Dec 92 20:46:38 MST
Organization: University of Utah CS Dept
Distribution: na

I was just wondering if any s.c.n'ers are going to the MacWorld Expo in San
Francisco in a couple of weeks.  It would be interesting to meet the faces
behind the .signatures.

(Sorry if this article makes it outside North America.)
  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
   . .  Lee Choquette  . . . . It's the worst plan since Abe Lincoln said, .
  . . lchoqu@cs.utah.edu. . . .'I'm tired of kicking around the house . . .
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Let's go take in a show.' . . . . . . . . .
Xref: sparky soc.culture.nordic:7993 alt.politics.ec:258 alt.politics.europe.misc:249
From: genillou@litsun.epfl.ch (Guy Genilloud)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic,alt.politics.ec,alt.politics.europe.misc
Subject: Re: Swiss Vote on EES ! Democracy worse than bureacracy
Date: 21 Dec 92 11:22:33 GMT
Followup-To: soc.culture.nordic
Organization: Ecole polytechnique federale de Lausanne DI-LIT

In article <1992Dec18.190407.10632@polaris.utu.fi>, opaloneva@abo.fi 
(Olli-Jukka Paloneva) writes:
|> One man - one vote -rule without structuring a very complex federative
|> rule in Europe, could make life unbearable in cold Northern countries of 
|> Europe which according to the statistics can be considered as rich ones.
|> 
|> Countries of the southern Europe, which once have been great powers 
|> could vote more subsidies to be paid by Northern countries if democracy 
|> existed.
|> Sorry for Confederatio Helvetica!

The system in Switzerland specifies that both a majority of States and a 
majority of people is required for a change to be accepted... This is a possible
mechanism to avoid this kind of problems. One can look for other mechanisms 
of course... And member states should always have the option to pull out of 
Europe without their populations being killed, raped, etc.

Note that the current mechanism in Switzerland is not very good because there 
are too many small Swiss German States. Therefore, the French and the 
Italian parts don't get the representation they deserve... I guessed it worked
so far because the Swiss Germans did not push their advantage too far, but
we are now seeing the limits of the system.

The system in Switzerland is not perfect, but looking at the alternatives 
in other European countries, it is still my favorite one. And Europe is worse, 
because the parlament is too weak and because there is one more layer of 
politicians (between what the people want and what gets done) - no one seems 
to be responsible for anything in this system. Of course, it is a very good 
system for politicians...


Guy Genilloud
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DI - LIT                             (Laboratoire d'informatique technique)
EPFL                                 (Ecole Polytechnique Federale de Lausanne)
(IN) - Ecublens
CH-1015 Lausanne
SWITZERLAND 
internet: genilloud@litsun.epfl.ch
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: hberg@polisci.umn.edu (Bob Hammarberg)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Dementia spreading in Social Democratic Party
Date: 21 Dec 92 14:59:45 GMT
Organization: Department of Political Science, University of Minnesota

In article <1992Dec18.191843.12177@nntp.hut.fi> mtf@saha.hut.fi (dalens ande) writes:

>In article <1992Dec14.100255.6045@jyu.fi> ryyti@jyu.fi (Jarmo Ryyti) writes:
>>Bob Hammarberg (hberg@polisci.umn.edu) wrote:
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>Comrade (*) U.Sundquist is an upper class finlandswede who is a member
>>of Finland's Social Democratical Party ("a worker's party"), who has never
>>done real work, if making politics is not considerd as real work,

Hey, wait a minute.  I DID NOT write the paragraph about Comrade U.S.!!!
That was Jarmo's stuff, which I had quoted in responding to his 
blatherings.  Please be more careful in attributing quotes!
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: steinarb@idt.unit.no (Steinar Bang)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic,rec.aviation.military
Subject: Re: Finnish Defense
Date: 3 Jan 93 13:07:10 GMT
	<1992Dec13.184118.10124@nntp.hut.fi>
	<1993Jan3.010550.322@newstand.syr.edu>
Followup-To: rec.aviation.military
Organization: Norwegian Inst. of Tech./University of Trondheim, Trondheim,
	Norway

>>>>> On Sun, 3 Jan 93 01:05:49 EST, ddawson@mothra.syr.EDU (Dick Dawson) said:

> ...  FA-18 is much slower than Mi-29 but has very elegant and
> effective weaponry.

As Yeager pointed out in his autobigraphy: the top speed of a fighter
(as long as it is in the Mach 2 range) is largely irrelevant. If you
turn tail to flee you present a nice IR flare and will have a
Sidewinder (or equivalent) up your ass before you can say "mommy!".

You may need good top speed to get into position for intercept
purposes. That's why mainly interceptors like the F-15, and the
MiG-29 have top speeds in the Mach2-2.5 range while multirole planes
that also are good dogifighters like the F-16 or the F-18 have a top
speed of around Mach 2.0 at sea level. This is more than enough for
dogfight purposes where you have engaged an enemy and where your enemy
will engage you rather than attempt evasion.

Top speed for a fighter is actually a high speed dash capability. You
don't get many minutes of flight time on full afterburner for most
modern fighters (the ATF has the capability of Supercruise, ie.
supersonic flight without burner.  This give a much longer operating
time in the Mach 1.5-1.6 range. Top speed of the ATF is Mach 2+...? I
dunno, actually...)

Followup should go to rec.aviation.military, I guess...:-)

"Who's Yeager?" you ask. If you have to ask, you don't have to know...:-)

Take care
From: olavt@ulrik.uio.no (Olav Torvund)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Travel in the Nordic Countries
Date: 22 Dec 92 11:57:12 GMT
Distribution: world,local
Organization: University of Oslo, Norway

Second half of may and the first three weeks of june will often be the
best time for travelling in the Nordic countries. It is usually the
best part of the year when it comes to wheather, and it is before the
tourist season really starts.

And do not miss 17th of may in Norway (preferably Oslo) if you happen
to be around at that time.

Olav Torvund
University of Oslo
Norway
Olavt@jus.uio.no
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: fischer@iesd.auc.dk (Lars Peter Fischer)
Subject: Re: Quoting
Organization: Mathematics and Computer Science, Aalborg University
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 23:29:31 GMT


>>>>> "Craig" == Craig Werner (werner@world.std.com)

Craig> This message contains no quotation at all, but I think it still
Craig> establishes the proper context.  :-)

Especially since it has a proper reference line, making it possible to
step backwards in the article sequence (provided you have a sane
newsreader).

What's that silly :-) doing up there?

/Lars
--
Lars Fischer, fischer@iesd.auc.dk | It takes an uncommon mind to think of
CS Dept., Aalborg Univ., DENMARK. | these things.  -- Calvin
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: tt@sulla.jyu.fi (Tapani Tarvainen)
Subject: Re: What is correct: ," or ", ?
Followup-To: soc.culture.nordic
Originator: tt@sulla.math.jyu.fi
Organization: University of Jyvaskyla
	<olems-221292101137@hfmac15.uio.no>
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 16:17:03 GMT

In article <olems-221292101137@hfmac15.uio.no> olems@ulrik.uio.no (Ole Michael Selberg) writes:


>By the way: if you're concerned about national correctness, you should also
>watch out when you choose your quotation marks:

>English:   ``No, he said
>Norwegian: ,,Nei, sa han   OR   <<Nei,>> sa han
>German:    ,,Nein``, sagte er   OR   >>Nein<<, sagte er

Along these lines, watch also spaces around punctuation marks.
E.g., in French you should leave one space before and after "?"
and "!", in English none before and two after.
There are lots of little things like these that will give
a non-native writer away (except fortunately native writers make
lost of mistakes with them ...)
--
Tapani Tarvainen  (tt@math.jyu.fi, tarvainen@finjyu.bitnet)
From: andersa@Riga.DoCS.UU.SE (Anders Andersson)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: What is correct: ," or ", ?
Date: 29 Dec 92 22:37:27 GMT
Organization: Uppsala University, Sweden
NNTP-Posting-Host: riga.docs.uu.se

In article <1992Dec28.045624.4944@freenet.carleton.ca>, aa478@Freenet.carleton.ca (Paul Shuttle) writes:
> Alternatively, a hyphen ("bindestrekk") can be used:
>   
>      Han vendte seg mot dem:
>          -Nei.

From a typographical point of view, a clear distinction has to be
made between a long minus (m-dash), a short minus (n-dash), and
hyphen (the shortest of the three).  In your example, an m-dash
should be used (even in Norwegian, I believe).  Hyphens are used
to tie words together to form a unit, when appropriate, and the
n-dash to mark a more 'distant' relationship or even opposition
between two words (the from-to way of describing things).
--
Anders Andersson, Dept. of Computer Systems, Uppsala University
Paper Mail: Box 325, S-751 05 UPPSALA, Sweden
Phone: +46 18 183170   EMail: andersa@DoCS.UU.SE
From: cb926@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Edmund Joseph Ryan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Closeness of the Nordic Languages
Date: 27 Dec 1992 20:19:16 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


Greetings,

Are Norweigan, Danish, and Swedish similar to the extent that a  
speaker of one could get by with the other two?

I read this is in a few books on the history of the English
language. I already know German. Does that help?

Virtually,

Edmund J. Ryan
From: torkel@sics.se (Torkel Franzen)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Closeness of the Nordic Languages
Date: 28 Dec 92 09:23:49 GMT
Organization: Swedish Institute of Computer Science, Kista

In article <1hl344INN9s1@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> cb926@cleveland.Freenet.Edu 
(Edmund Joseph Ryan) writes:

   >Are Norweigan, Danish, and Swedish similar to the extent that a  
   >speaker of one could get by with the other two?

  Reading Norwegian, Danish, Swedish is pretty easy if you know any of the
languages.
  Swedes usually have no trouble understanding spoken Norwegian (weird
dialects apart, of course), but most Swedes need some practice to
understand spoken Danish easily.

   >I read this is in a few books on the history of the English
   >language. I already know German. Does that help?

  German helps in so far as lots of words in the Scandinavian languages
have either been borrowed from German or share a common origin with
German words, and there are also similarities in grammar and
constructions.
From: kjell@emke.chalmers.se (Kjell Siimon)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: CHRISTMAS GREETING
Date: 21 Dec 92 14:01:01 GMT
Followup-To: soc.culture.nordic
Organization: Chalmers University of Technology


Hello all you Beard-Busters out there!!!!

I wanted to wish all readers of soc.culture.nordic:

========================================================
I                                                      I
I     A MERRY CHRISTMAS AND A HAPPY NEW YEAR !!!!!     I
I                                                      I
========================================================

And now I did it.

I also want to proclaim 1993 as "THE YEAR OF THE CHATERS" :-)
Fear thy will.....


Kjell the Brave
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: aa478@Freenet.carleton.ca (Paul Shuttle)
Subject: Re: What is correct: ," or ", ?
Organization: National Capital Freenet, Ottawa, Canada
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1992 04:56:24 GMT


tt@sulla.jyu.fi (Tapani Tarvainen) writes:
 
> In article <1992Dec21.143855.5007@dxcern.cern.ch> trones@dxcern.cern.ch (Jost
>
> >What I am wondering about is the correct way to write the following:
>
> >(1) "No", he said.
> >   or
> >(2) "No," he said.
>
> >Is there a different rule for this in English and Norwegian
> >(or other languages) Or is (2) correct all the time?
> >Or maybe (1)?

I am not a Norwegian speaker, but I am fairly fluent. Usually, in
Norwegian, such constructions are not used.  Usually colons are
used instead of commas, e.g.

     Med den siste kraftangtrengelse fikk jeg stammet fram:
         <Nei.>

Alternatively, a hyphen ("bindestrekk") can be used:
  
     Han vendte seg mot dem:
         -Nei.

However, in general (2) appears to be the rule followed when
applicable, in Nordic languages. Following is an extract from
_Det_parallelle_lig_ by Frits Remar (p.47):

     >Nej,< sagde jeg.
     >Ja,< sagde han, og jeg lagde roret pa.

Paul Shuttle                   aa478@Freenet.carleton.ca
-- 
_______________________________________________________
_____ aa478@ncf.carle.ot.ca     (Paul Shuttle)        -
______________________________________________________
From: vaxi@ee.tut.fi (Varis Jari)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Sami, Saami, Samii or just Lappish?
Date: 3 Jan 93 14:59:38 GMT
Organization: Tampere University of Technology
NNTP-Posting-Host: ee.tut.fi
Originator: vaxi@ee.tut.fi

I have found a bit confusing the usage of English words which describe
Lappish language, lapplanders, the Lapps (as a nation) and Lappland.
My old-fashioned dictionary knows only those Lapp derivatives but I
think that we should use the word Saami as the name of the language 
instead of the word Lappish. But can anyone tell us what is the
correct form? Is it Sami, Samii or Saami? I have seen all of those forms
in this newsgroup. And is there any good Sami derived words which mean
lapplander or Lapland. I mean such words which should be recommended to use
instead.

-- 
+		  !  ...It's like mystic whistling wind that wraps around
   Jari Varis     !  you carrying you to another world, to another time.
 vaxi@ee.tut.fi   !  It's like an enchanting whisper with warm breath
                - !  brushing lightly your ear. It's an invitation....
From: staff@rabbit.augs.se (Staffan Friberg)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Finnish Defense
Date: 22 Dec 92 09:26:43 GMT
Organization: Amiga User Group Sweden
X-NewsSoftware: GRn 1.16f (10.17.92) by Mike Schwartz & Michael B. Smith

I really shouldn't do this but I can't resist.

> 2.Why Sweden is not bilingual like Finland?

This question is very easy to answer. Finland was once a part of Sweden hence
Finland is a bilingual country. If the situation had been the reverse and
Sweden had been a part of Finland then Sweden would have been a bilingual
country.

--
                Staffan Friberg

                EMail:
                InterNet: staff@rabbit.augs.se
                FidoNet: 2:204/404.2
Organization: Arizona State University
Date: Tuesday, 22 Dec 1992 08:30:29 MST
From: <ATJMO@ASUACAD.BITNET>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: What is correct: ," or ", ?

In the cited case of a quotation, Strunk and White have the following to
say:
                    When a quotation is followed by an attributive
                    phrase, the comma is enclosed within the
                    quotation marks.

Example:     "I can't attend," she said.

In the more general case of punctuation and quotation marks, American
usage tends to dictate that all marks be placed inside.  British English
usage tends to be less strict on the issue and marks may or may not be placed
inside, depending upon the context, meaning, and the writer's intent
(this makes more sense to me, but I suppose it depends on one's audience --
a writer writing for an American publication would be well advised to
follow the conventions of American usage).
From: leino@rat.vtt.fi (Tapio Leino)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Closeness of the Nordic Languages
Date: 30 Dec 1992 08:03:22 GMT
Organization: VTT / Lab. of Structural Engineering
NNTP-Posting-Host: rat.vtt.fi

In article <TORKEL.92Dec28101810@lludd.sics.se> torkel@sics.se (Torkel Franzen) writes:
>In article <1992Dec28.040733.23536@odin.diku.dk> rancke@diku.dk
> (Hans Rancke-Madsen) writes:
>
>   >(It's my impression that Swedes have an easier time understanding
>   >Danes than vice versa. Can anyone confirm or deny this?)
>
>  I've never noticed this...

I agree. I have attended several meetings with other Scandinavian people
where the Swedes were the ones to suggest to using English instead of the
Scandinavian languages just because it was too hard for them to know what
the Danish speaker was taking about!

-- 
Tapio Leino
Technical Research Centre of Finland / Laboratory of Structural Engineering
mail: VTT/Rakennetekniikan laboratorio, P.O. Box 26, SF-02151 ESPOO, Finland
tel: -358-0-456 6683, telefax: -358-0-456 7003    e-mail: Tapio.Leino@vtt.fi
From: JANIEMI@FINABO.ABO.FI (Jarmo Niemi TUY)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Latin on Finnish Text-TV
Date: 30 Dec 92 08:23:17 GMT
Organization: Abo Akademi University, Finland
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.24

In <1992Dec30.015109.145@front.se> samuel@front.se writes:

> Hello,
> Does anybody of you pepole living in Finland know why Finnish Television
> is broadcasting news on text-TV in LATIN LANGUAGE (page 365 on Finnish 
> text-TV) ? 
> I think this is a very nice thing, but I cannot figure out who are the 
> 'target audience' for these broadcasts. 
> /SS
> -- 

Well, students of Latin, hobbyists etc... The Finnish Broadcasting
corporation started a news service, Nuntii Latini, in Latin. It
is broadcast both locally and worldwide in AM. This was the idea
of a few enthusiasts of Latin and classical studies. The service
was very well received, and obviously the people responsible 
for text-TV started also to publish the text of Nuntii Latini.

Unfortunately, if you are interested, I cannot give you details as
I don't understand Latin...

Jarmo Niemi   Biochemistry, University of Turku
              SF-20500 Turku, Finland
              ++358-21-6335758
	      FAX ++358-21-633 6388
              janiemi@finabo.abo.fi
From: thietaniemi@cc.helsinki.fi
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: The Samii languages (are Nordic!)
Date: 2 Jan 93 13:27:36 GMT
Organization: University of Helsinki

In article <2B43590F.3529@ics.uci.edu>, tknudsen@ics.uci.edu (Trond Knudsen) writes:
> In my previous posting I forgot to mention that the Samii languages
> are of course not in relation with the nordic languages at all. They
> belong to the finnish-ugrian language group, related to finnish and
> hungarian, but so different from them that finns do not understand
> samii and samiis do not understand finnish. I should also mention that
> the terms lappish and lapps should be exchanged with the more
> ethnically correct samii and samiis.
> 
> -- 
> Trond Knudsen


I suppose you mean that Samii (Saami? Samish?) is not related to Scandinavian
languages. Of course it is a Nordic language like Finnish (See the Nordic
language convention: Nordisk spraakkonvention).


with best regards
a Nordic non-Indoeuropean Baltic Finn
Tapani Hietaniemi, Universitas Helsingiensis
                   urbs fennorum