From: stojanov@husc11.harvard.edu (Milan Stojanovic)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: Democracy
Date: 3 Jan 93 19:21:49 GMT
Organization: Harvard University Science Center

In article <1993Jan2.054942.16242@hpcvca.cv.hp.com> scott@hpcvccl.cv.hp.com (Scott Linn) writes:
>stojanov@husc11.harvard.edu (Milan Stojanovic) writes:
>
>Then, why do they control 70% of BH, and are still laying siege to Sarajevo?
>It doesn't jibe with your comments.


Well, first Sarajevo is encircled with Serbian ethnical territory.
The latest Owen/Vance suggested cantonization proposal accepts
this fact and makes Sarajevo a neutral zone.
Second read more carefully.  For logistical and military purposes.
Third, it is far from 70%.  If we add all claims - Serbs 70%, Croats 30%,
Muslims 10%, we get around 110%, which is somehow not possible.  


>
>: Serbs gave guarantees that everyone will be allowed to return to 
>: their original habitats.  Considering that recognition of new
>: Serbian state would surely not come until this is fulfilled,
>: I believe that this would be the case.
>
>This is impossible!  The Serbs have been destroying the homes when they kill
>or drive the people out of them, even if they are civilians. 
>

Not according to Lawrence Eagleberger.  There will be huge financial
help to re-build Bosnia and Herzegovina to avoid refugee problems.
It seems to me that you are too ready to accept the population shifts
as a consequences of war.

>: 
>: You have deleted most of my argument to be able to say this.
>: I think that the basic point of your posting is just to get
>: your frustration out, not to try to find out more about situation
>: there.  
>
>Read the latest Newsweek.  But, of course, it must be run by Muslims, since
>it doesn't take the Serb position...

No, read more carefully the article after the title one.  

Also, I hope that journalist would go to Serbia and Serbian 
territory to track women that were raped by the opposing side.

The most interesting thing is that in the one of the article about 
history of the rape in war they still mention German army in WWI 
Belgium.  Well, that was proven to be the first known organised 
P.R. lie, made to turn England public oppinion in stronger favour
of the war against Germany! 


>
>The rapes are just examples of the ethnic cleansing going on.  While rapes
>do occur during times of war, the current situation in BH is way beyond
>what is "normal".
>

I do not see how any rape case could be normal or even "normal." 

>: How many Viet Nahm women were raped by American soldier 
>: some twenty years ago?   How many civilians were killed then?  And did
>: anyone suggested that it is a planned policy of American government
>: to rape Viet Nahm women?  No, so the bottom line is that 
>: you are trying to play on emotions, not on the well defined arguments in 
>: your postings. 
>
>No, you don't have well-defined arguments.  All you say is that nothing bad
>is happening, Serbs are defending themselves before the Muslims could hurt

I am not saying that nothing bad is happening,

>them, and all will be hunky-dory if the Muslims just give up.  Hardly precise,
>given all the information coming out of Bosnia.
>

I am just saying that a lot of bad things are happening, on
all sides, but for one or the other reason Serbs are the 
most exposed.  Thus, there is a pressure to forget real causes
of this war and do something which would be unjust!


>:Again, death camps have been shown to be PR matter.  There is a big difference
>:between death camps and detention camps.  
>
>Exactly, which is why the people are so upset with the Serbians: because they
>are running death camps (or were, until people started investigating them).
>

No, this is your claim based on propaganda.  There is something that is
called innocent until proven guilty. 

I am quite sure that people were interrogated in cruel manner, those 
recognised as committing crimes against Serbian population might have
been killed ( deplorable, they should have faced public trials ), 
but the main purpose of those camps were not to kill prisoners, which 
makes this camps detention camp.  There was definition in TIME, there
were statements by State Secretary, there was an ICRC report...

Also, I am quite sure that rate of prisoners that come out of that camps
would be shown to be higher that percentage of German POWs that came out
of certain American and British camps!  Should I remind you that,
due to malnutrition, lack of medical care and cold few hundred thousand
German POW died in camps after the WWII.  This long time hidden fact
was recently much publicised in Germany and England.  I do not
remember that Germans dared to call those camps "death camps,"
for obvious reasons.   
Not to mention camps in Siberia and in Yugoslavia.  

Closer to the present time, how many VK fighters survived being captured
by Americans?  Were they in "death camps, " "death prisons," or
the the whole country was turned into "country of death?"  

>: And, as I said, Serbian side does not claim that Muslim attacks occurred only
>: in past.  Muslims started attacking Serbs and Serbs started attacking 
>: Muslims.  Order will be found out after the war, at this point everything
>: is rather obscure by PR companies and biased reporting.
>                       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>Oh, yes, the much-feared Muslim PR companies, stronger than the Serbian army...
>Please let us know who these PR companies are, and where the money is coming
>from, and why the Muslims are funding the PR companies instead of getting arms.
>

There was a rather lengthy report on BBC on that one. 
Arms could not be imported for embargo reasons, but Arab countries 
were rather willing to provide huge amounts of money for any purpose.


>: In two previous
>: cases, Muslims started first.  Serbs claimed that Muslims started to 
>: take over police stations in the areas where Serb had majority or
>: where there is balanced population.  
>
>So, you fully support the independence of Kosovo, since 90% of the people
>are Albanians.

I wrote about this few times, so you should known where I stand on that one.  
I think that partition of Kosovo is unavoidable, it is just matter of
discussion how to do it in the most painless way for everyone.  And
Albanians do not comprise 90% of population, at least not the Albanians
that are legally citizens of Yugoslavia.  

>
>: Slovenes deny right for self-determination of Serbs.
>
>Unfortunately, Serbs define self-determination as destroying the Croats and
>Muslims.

And Croatian and Muslim self-determination is destroying the Serbs.  
Slovenian self-determination triggered the domino effect, that 
destroyed everything, the whole country, yet you support all of them, 
except Serbs.  Man of high moral principles, no doubt!

>
>: And rapes occur in any war.  Pathological behaviour is not connected
>: with only one side.  Again matter of better PR  relations.
>
>Oh, yes, the dreaded Muslim PR machine.  What happened to the Serb PR machine?
>Why don't they have a stronger one, since they are more well-off at this time?
>

No, they have much less money than both Croats and Muslims.  
After embargo no company is allowed to work for them!  Also, they
seem not to have realised the full importance of PR work.


>: Well, if it is the same hotel shown at the very beginning of the
>: war, it was on Serbian territory.  It is where shrapnel wounded member
>: of BBC team. So Muslims should be asked about this. 
>
>So, Sarajevo is Serbian territory?
>

Yes, certain parts, Grbavica, Ilidza....  No-one is claiming Bas Carsija. 

>
>Scott Linn
>scott@hpcvccl.cv.hp.com

Milan N. Stojanovic
Xref: sparky soc.culture.yugoslavia:10297 soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna:1027 soc.culture.croatia:276