From: kevin@pages (Kevin Sven Berg)
Subject: Re: Hsing I Kung Fu (internal/external)
Organization: Banzai Research Institute
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 22:53:44 GMT

In article <1992Nov10.221724.16929@srg.srg.af.mil> schan@birch.srg.af.mil  
(Stephen Chan x4485) writes:
> In article <74120@apple.Apple.COM> mikel@Apple.COM (Mikel Evins) writes:
> >>	I've always been interested: what's the real difference 
> >>between the so-called "hard" martial arts, and the "soft" ones, 
> >>like Hsing I or Tai Chi or even Aikido?
> >
> > [... deleted ...]
> >sorts of styles assure us that, with sufficient advancement,
> >the hard styles become soft and the soft styles become
> >hard, presumably meeting eventually somewhere in the
> >middle.
> 
>  [... deleted ...]
>
> 	From what I understand about how "internal" styles were taught, it was
> pretty similar to training in "external" systems: lots of stance training,
> practicing a lot basics, all kinds of physical conditioning (Chen Fake did 
> lots of exercises to strengthen his hand/forearm strength). In the beginning, 
> you had to use muscle, because you didn't know any better.

It seems to me that since all MA is experientially aquired and we use our
senses to do so, then all arts begin with the external. If you were to
make the distinction of inner/outer senses as in some Indian religious
traditions, perhaps you could approach training from the inside as well.
However, it has been well documented that few MA's teach the rich  
spiritual/meditative background that may have been present in the past;
this makes it improbably that interal teachings would start via the
internal aspects.

I'll make a parallel to Hatha Yoga here (bear with me). One starts with
gross movement in attempting to fit the body to various asanas (poses).
The mind is only able to focus on general body areas to apply strength
or lack thereof. One begins to sense muscles in different strata within
the body and develops the ability to isolate control over those groups.
The mind becomes aware of the interelations of spine and muscle and
breath throughout the body, and one is able to focus broadly even when
making extremely subtle changes within the body. Finally, there is a
point where everything goes "click" and you soar: it feels like it takes
no energy to hold a handstand for 30 minutes, etc. ... You've made the
bridge to using internal energy.

So, within "internal" MA's you start down a similar (external) path.
You look for and become more aware of subtle distinctions within the
body and enhance your ability to direct them. In this I agree with
Adam Hsu. One could conjecture that the degree of which a specific style 
is internal or external is related to the degree of emphasis in pursuing 
subtle distinctions within the body.

> 	Could it be that the styles which are more internal are building their
> system on a shakey foundation?

IMHO: I believe you only get a shaky foundation when the martial application
is subsumed. 

> 	Is anything lost by not studying an "external" system before going to
> an internal style? Or is it just a matter of putting off fighting ability, 
> and possibly getting rid of bad habits before they get started?

Maybe it's like learning to appreciate the Symphony when you also dig 
Rock-n-Roll. (?)

> 	It seems that, since folks don't have time to study MA as previous
> generations of professional fighters did, segments of full curricula have 
> been cut out of older systems, which were then marketted as being complete
> (or, as some of my old professors might say "necessary and sufficient").
> Leaving folks in later generations to try and put them back together again -

Hence training across styles.

> hey, how many Taiji places practice a full art which includes stance
> training, forms, tui shou, da liu, san shou, and weapons? 

Gee, I know of one :-)

regards,

Kevin

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