From: post@hpfcso.fc.hp.com (David Post)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Gun Safe
Date: 27 Aug 92 00:38:28 GMT

#From what I can see ( Wright-Rossi Felon Survey ) most guns possessed by
criminals were gained through non-traditional means including theft.  I
think gun owners have a responsibility to understand the "value density" of
guns, and ethically have a duty to themselves and their community to make
an attempt to keep their guns from being stolen.  Thus my interest in
safes.  A little sermon here!  [ I know, crime and political followups to
t.p.g, right?  ]

There was an article in the April 1991 issue of American Rifleman on gun
safes and other firearm security devices such as PistolPals, locking
cabinets and furniture-style safes.  It gives a good overview of what is
available in features and what is vital.  So, I won't rehash the article.

It also lists about twenty safe manufacturers, only 4 of which are in Utah
:-).  It does not list a Colorado manufacturer, so I know it is not complete.

I gathered these notes while shopping.  I do not have first hand experience
with some of these things so I defer to anyone with experience.  It is not
an exhaustive list of considerations.

STRATEGY

  Determine for yourself what you are trying to accomplish.  Discourage
  normal Kids?  Hoods?  Juvenile delinquents?  Gang thefts?  BATF? :-(
  How much trouble will they go to?  For example, are you trying to keep
  curious sitters or neighbor kids from temptation?  If so, maybe you do not
  need a heavy safe.  Maybe a security cabinet is all that is necessary.  It
  is certainly a lot cheaper.

  If you need to store a home defense gun, then a safe is inappropriate.
  You need something you can open quickly in near darkness, and most safes
  do not fit that description.  Chances are you won't need to spend a whole
  lot of money to protect one or two handguns.

  If your home or business is unoccupied for large portions of a day, AND
  there is reasonable danger of criminal activity, maybe something heavier
  is indicated.

  If you are concerned about fire as well as security, maybe you need a
  jewelry safe with a UL rating (see below ).  For example, if you wish to
  protect cash or valuable papers as well as collectors firearms, a standard
  gun grade safe may not do it for you.

HINGES

  If someone is preparing to break into a gun safe, they ( the dumb ones,
  anyway ) may go after external hinges.  With most safes, it won't help, it
  just ruins the door because there will be "bolts" securing that edge of
  the door.  By the way, internal hinges look great and prevent the above
  scenario, but because the door cannot be removed, it may be harder to move,
  say a 500 pound safe through your house.  External hinges also allow the
  door to swing out ~180 degrees.

FIRE RESISTANCE AND THE DOOR

  Many manufacturers offer some sort of fire resistant lining for a fee.
  The material is generally rated to withstand XXXX degree flames for YY
  hours by UL.  Remember, that is the material itself, not the whole safe.
  I don't know even one gun safe company that has qualified a safe.  The
  procedure is often done by UL, but not on gun safes.  So watch what
  exactly the safe maker is advertising.  If you absolutely need fire
  protection, you need a heavy wallet and a jewelry-grade safe.

  If you have gone to the trouble to order fire lining, ask about the door.
  How do they fire line the door?  Sometimes the answer is "The door?".
  Some manufacturers will install additional insulation in the door for a
  reasonable fee.

  With the fire lining, often there is an option of bare or metal interior.

  Bare is cheaper, but vulnerable to gauging and chipping, especially around
  shelf brackets.

BLACK POWDER 

  Someone in this group mentioned that one defense against the bad guy with
  a torch is to store black powder in the safe, or, at least, say that you
  do with a large, conspicuous caution sign on the outside.

SHIPPING AND RIGGING

  When they quote shipping, realize that many of them get a 40% volume
  discount, so comparing to standard freight tables is probably not valid.
  They go by zones and charge per hundred pounds on a by zone basis.

  From my experience, 600 pounds is probably the limit on a removable door
  safe that I would want to move into a house without expert help.  Look up
  "riggers" in the yellow pages or ask a factory rep for help.  A hundred
  dollars spent to avoid a slipped disc, mashed appendage or damaged carpet
  may be well worth it.

LARGE GUN SHOWS 

  I collected sales literature, but I don't think anything beats going to a
  large gun show and comparing 4 or 5 brands side-by-side.  And then you can
  ask the seller to compare their product with the others.  You get a lot of
  bs, but YOU get to be the filter.

ILLUMINATION

  All the bigger companies offer an expensive "Bankers" lamp, which is
  supposed to sit atop the safe and illuminate the entire interior.  It
  looks pretty, but it doesn't work.  My kid had a better answer.  Put clear
  christmas tree lights in there.  (There is usually a hole somewhere for a
  dehumidifier.  )

RACKS

  Forgive the ascii pictures, but this is intended to be a vertical view of
  a typical long gun rack in a safe.


        |/\/\/\/\|  C            |/\/\/\/\|  C
        |        |               |x x     |      x = position of long gun
        |/\/\/\/\|  B            |/\/\/\/\|  B
        |        |               |     x x|      X = position of really
        |/\/\/\/\|  A            |/\/\/\/\|  A       long gun
                                  X      X

  It looks like it will store 12 guns, doesn't it?  It might if you don't
  mind moving things around all the time.  But access to guns in row B and C
  is a pain.

  The picture on the right shows something more practical.  Things start
  getting real cramped at six guns.  Also, depending on shelf height above
  the long gun rack, you may be forced to keep really long guns like
  shotguns only on the A row.

  If I had to order a safe, I think I would specify the "Easy Out " plan.
  It won't hold as many long guns, but it holds more comfortably.  Remember,
  this ascii stuff is not to scale.  It helps to remember that the butts
  take up a lot of room on the safe floor.

      ---------
      \       /
      /       \
      \       /
      /       \
      \       /
      /       \
      \       / 
      -       -

-----------------------------
David Post  davep@hpfcpp.fc.hp.com  hplabs!hpfcla!post