HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: bondir@vaxb.gbus.virginia.edu (RICHARD BONDI)
Subject: Re: Clarification:  Are Troops From "Proper Serbia" engaged ?
Organization: Darden Center, University of Virginia
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 21:32:44 GMT

In article <weWnJ0i00WB6EQlXpg@andrew.cmu.edu> re0x+@andrew.cmu.edu (Radu Eugen Edelstein) writes:
>From: re0x+@andrew.cmu.edu (Radu Eugen Edelstein)
>Subject: Clarification:  Are Troops From "Proper Serbia" engaged ?
>Date: 14 Aug 92 04:23:28 GMT

>According to the media, Belgrade denies that any of its forces
>are engaged in Serbia.  What is the reality ?
>I believe it is important in the light of the fact that an embargo
>is in effect against Serbia and that many on this group advocate
>military action against Belgrade, not only on the separatist Serbians
>in Bosnia.
>Please respond with verifiable facts, not with your opinion about it.

>Rad
In the most recent New York Review of Books, Misha Glenny, the BBC Eastern
Europe Correspondent, writes in a long article that when Serbia withdrew its 
JNA forces in May 1992 from Bosnia-Herzegovina, it simply left those troops 
of the JNA behind who were Bosnian-Herzegovinan.  These were trained JNA 
soldiers who continued to fight as coordinated units, albeit no longer under 
the JNA name, but as JNA nonetheless.  Thus Milosevic took advantage of the 
JNA being multi-national:  he was able to say that the JNA had withdrawn, 
even though this was strictly not true, only its Serbian forces had 
withdrawn.
As for other military responsibilities of Serbia:
It is impossible to believe that the Serb fighters' heavy 
weapons in Bosnia-H have not come from Serbia, in other words from the JNA.  
Heavy arms and munitions continue to be supplied from Serbia - 
where else could they possibly be coming from?

RB
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.bulgaria,soc.culture.greek
From: jdd1@cec1.wustl.edu (James Dimos Dimarogonas)
Subject: Re: Skopje's Swiss Dreams
Organization: Washington University, St. Louis Mo.
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 20:43:34 GMT

In article <1992Aug20.193253.8953@cas.org> vkb57@cas.org writes:
>
>Thank you for the honest, sincere, and prompt clarification. What seems from
>the above to have happened is that the deputy foreign minister Junis said that
>Greece SHOULD propose the name Slavic Macedonia, thereby provoking two weeks of
>public criticism, and Mitsotakis clearly did not follow the suggestion. That is
>a far cry from the Greek government proposing the name Slavic Macedonia. As
>far as i know the official position of the Greek government was and remains
>that it objects to the use of the word Macedonia in the name.
>
>>---> Panos Tamamidis
>Vasil Babamov


You asked to check my records, as if I am some information bank.  Unfortunately
I do not keep records.  It is true that the Greek goverement did not officially
propose the name slavic macedonia to the EC.  But Samaras was fired by the
prime minister from the position of foreign minister for beeing and I quote
"unflexible".  The position followed afterwards by the ministry was the
name slavic Macedonia.  As mr. Tamamidis said this was debated for two
weeks, but debated in the press, not the goverement.  Finally the
goverement of Skopje announced that it would not accept anything else
but "republic of Macedonia", so the whole discussion ended.  Since then
the hard line was again adopted.  But you can say that official goverement
position for 2 weeks was this compromise, and it was the closest we got to
a solution of the problem.  As to the other proposition of the goverement, 
that the country to be recognised by a different name and create three 
provinces, the macedonian, the albanian(under some name) and a third
one in the north by some other name to satisfy the serbian population,
I will try to find a quote in some old newspapers I have.  But I remember
one time it was stated, was after the albanian goverement said that
albanian territories of the republic should be returned to Albania.
I heard in on the short wave radio  (voice of Greece) that some official
made this proposal, and that the greek goverement will promote autonomy
for the albanian region, but not independence. I will try to get back to
you on this one. 

Regards

James Dimarogonas
From: sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Fundamentalist?
Date: 16 Aug 92 15:05:27 GMT
Organization: Enea Data AB

Milan Stojanovic (stojanov@husc8.harvard.edu) writes:
>I do not understand.  Please be more clear.  Serbs
>do not claim Bihac, in the case Muslims accept
>cantonization.  In the case of the split of B&H
>between Serbia and Croatia, they would claim Bihac.
>So it is up to fundamentalists in Izetbegovic
>government.

What fundamentalists? Who is a fundamentalist? Is the B-H govern-
ment fundamentalist because they don't accept Serbian terms? Is 
Karadzic a fundamentalist? After all, he seems not to be able to 
handle a political set-back without taking to arms? Is Milosevic
a fundamentalist? His rigid - and impossible - view on Kosovo seems
quite fundamentalist to me.
-- 
Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - sommar@enea.se
Life is wonderful when the wonderlife is full
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.greek
From: yiannis@wam.umd.edu (IOANNIS VELISSARAKOS  ATHINA-HELLAS)
Subject: Re: Independent Slavo-Macedonia
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 05:56:27 GMT

In article <MACRAKIS.92Aug19175839@next4.osf.org> macrakis@osf.org (Stavros Macrakis) writes:
>In article <1992Aug19.192929.27974@wuecl.wustl.edu> jdd1@cec1.wustl.edu (James Dimos Dimarogonas) writes:
>
>   Whether they are Bulgarians or not is irrelevant. If they have a distinct
>   sense of nationality, they can form a country. It is not of any significance
>   whether you call them a Bulgarian subgroup, or people from mars.
>
>As I said in my note, "_to the extent_ they are not a distinct group,
>they are Bulgarians."  You will recall that some netters have claimed
>that they are an `artificial' group created by Tito.  I was pursuing
>this logic and seeing where it led.
>
>   ...So the problem is not the slavic population.  Is the fact that
>   it should not be possible to use it as an excuse for aggression....
>
>I agree entirely.  My point was precisely that there is NOT a problem
>with the Slavic population in Greece.
>
>   ...As for their right to look after citizents of theirs abroad,
>   that is of course an undeniable right.
>
>They presumably also have the right to communicate with those they
>perceive as fellow Macedonians, although they have no legal
>relationship with them, just as Greek Consulates interact with ethnic
>Greeks who have never had Greek nationality (e.g. ethnic Greeks from
>Egypt, Turkey, etc.).
>
>   The Greek objection is labeling the greek slavs as "macedonians".
>
>In the sense of having close linguistic and cultural links to the
>Slavo-Macedonians, this is probably reasonable for many Greek Slavs.
>On the other hand, of course, very few are Slavo-Macedonian nationals.
>
>   ...They will have to find Greek slavs that want to be called
>   "macedonians" first.
>
>So let them try.  I'm not worried.  Are you?
>
>	-s



	Nai twra arxiste kai tous tsakwmous kai na deite poso 
0a stenaxwreisetai tous filous mas tous skopianous...:((
	Makrakh mia erwthsh. Poies 0eseis yposthrizeis; 

yiannis
Organization: Middle East Technical University - Computer Center
Date: Friday, 14 Aug 1992 15:16:56 TUR
From: friend <C63753@TRMETU.BITNET>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: PROTEST AGAINST HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATION

I protest against the human rights violation being committed
by the Yugs Government in the country of Bosnia-Hercegovina.

I appeal to the civilized nations to help the poor humans
of Bosnia-Hercegovina by the most effective and quick
way, may be armed strike against Yugs Govt.

Saood
From: pnmideast@igc.org
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Date: 12 Aug 92 22:47 PDT
Subject: Muslim Relief effort for Bosnia inf
Nf-ID: #N:cdp:1475300354:000:1106
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!pnmideast    Aug 12 22:47:00 1992


From: <pnmideast>
Subject: Muslim Relief effort for Bosnia infants

/* Written 12:48 pm  Aug 12, 1992 by jisrawi@physics.rutgers.edu in cdp:soc.religion.i */
/* ---------- "A call from Bosnia's infants" ---------- */

        *********************************************************
        *                                                       *
        * Prophet Muhamad, peace and prayers be upon him have   *
        * said: "Me and the sponsor of an orphan are like those *
        * two" and he (PBUH) joined two of his fingers.         *
        *                                                       *
        *********************************************************

The American Muslim Council is coordinating a relief effort for the
infants in Bosnia. It is calling upon people whose conscious is still
intact to sponsor infants for a period of time (one or two years or
whatever it takes) to be later returned to their parents when the
situation settles down in Bosnia. For those willing to join this effort
please call AMC at the number: (202)-789-2262 or FAX the number:
(202)-789-2550.
From: zoltan@psychnet.psychol.utas.edu.au (Zoltan Schreter)
Subject: Re: 31% Serbs take 70% of B.-H.
Organization: Psychology Department, University of Tasmania
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 00:42:47 GMT

In article <1992Aug13.112546.12006@bernina.ethz.ch> mitrovic@tik.ethz.ch (Srdjan Mitrovic) writes:
>Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
>Path: newsroom.utas.edu.au!munnari.oz.au!mips!mips!sdd.hp.com!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!mcsun!Germany.EU.net!news.netmbx.de!zrz.tu-berlin.de!math.fu-berlin.de!Sirius.dfn.de!chx400!bernina!news
>From: mitrovic@tik.ethz.ch (Srdjan Mitrovic)
>Subject: Re: 31% Serbs take 70% of B.-H.
>Message-ID: <1992Aug13.112546.12006@bernina.ethz.ch>
>Sender: news@bernina.ethz.ch (USENET News System)
>Organization: TIK, ETH Zuerich, Switzerland
>References: <1992Aug9.163320.6387@bernina.ethz.ch> <zoltan.23.713408758@psychnet.psychol.utas.edu.au> <1992Aug10.113256.2474@bernina.ethz.ch> <1992Aug12.213651.13572@src.umd.edu>
>Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 11:25:46 GMT
>Lines: 57
>In article <1992Aug12.213651.13572@src.umd.edu> tedwards@src.umd.edu (Thomas
>Grant Edwards) writes:

... Stuff deleted ...

>Any people would huddle together in times of great danger, be it Americans
>or Serbs or any other nation, especially those that have been
>in constant danger of extermination for centuries.
>

When this conflict started I had a strong understanding for the claims of 
the Serbsin Croatia, especially after I read an interview with Tudjman in "
Der Spiegel". 
However, the situation in B.-H. seems to be very different to
me. No "constant danger of extermination for centuries" can justify what
the Serbs are doing there - "ethnically cleansing", that is, forcefully
driving out any other nationality from 70% of B.-H.'s territory, provided 
they are lucky enough to be offered the possibility of "voluntarily" giving
up all their possessions.  
This behaviour of the Serbs resulted in a curious fact: Their feeling
that they have only enemies in the world is not a paranoid fear any more -
they really managed to unite the western nations on the one hand and Iran
on the other hand against them.

>
>>
>>(I'm not making reccommendations, just curious.  I _AM_ for CAP
>>over Yugoslavia...nothing flies that doesn't have UN approval.)
>>
>>-Tom
>
>Srdjan
>
>

Zoltan
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: errol@leland.Stanford.EDU (errol craig)
Subject: Re: CampsIII
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 92 16:06:37 GMT

(Petar Simic) writes:
>	Errol Craig writes:
>
>>>>
>  (Zoran Draskovic) writes:
>  >
>  > BANJA LUKA, Bosnia-Hercegovina (UPI) -- A British opposition party
>  >leader Tuesday ended a private inquiry into alleged human rights
>  >violations at Serb-run detention camps, saying that he found poor
>  >conditions but NO evidence of systematic torture and killing at the
>  >locations he visited.
>
> And at home, I always make sure our bathroom is clean before we
> have company over.
>
> Errol
>
><<<
> 	I understand. But, what should they do to convince you? Why do
> you think that they will not keep from now on their "bathroom clean"?
>
> 	Remember, camp story are so far allegations by Serbian enemyes in
> Bosnia. As the response, Bosnian Serbs opened all their camps to inspection
> (am I right here?) I hope they will keep it open. Media loves the story,
> but so far all they showed (from the *worst* camp, Omraska) are some
> pictures of underfead man behind the fence. We have also seen picture (ABC)
> of a Serb being butchered in Muslim/Croat camp, but these story remained
> unfollowed. Why?
>
> 	This days we have some more reports of what these outside inspectors
> found, such as the UPI report you comented. There will be more to come.
> Well-minded people like you should also hope that Serbian allegations of
> attrocities against them in Croatian and Muslim camps will be seriously
> investigated. Especially given the history of the region.

	It is my opinion that the only way to handle these allegations
is to get serious about them.  When you have uninvited company it is
hard as hell to entertain them as well as clean the toilet.  U.S.
intelligence knows exactly where each camp is.  If there is an open
invitation to inspect camps, we should parachute in 100 investigators
unannounced to each one of the 94+ camps.  Of course this includes
Bosnian and Croat camps too. 

	Of course it's easier to pay lip service to the issue from our
reclining chairs.  I agree with you that these are extremely
complicated matters.  I don't claim to know the solution, or even the
problem excatly.  But I do maintain that certain standards of humanity
must be upheld, and they obviously aren't.  And it's the games that
everybody is playing that make me want to puke.  Let's get serious
now!

>       [rest deleted]                 

Regards,
Errol 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.jewish
From: mitrovic@tik.ethz.ch (Srdjan Mitrovic)
Subject: Minister or musician?
Organization: TIK, ETH Zuerich, Switzerland
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 16:20:21 GMT


Published in NZZ from 13.8.92 
(Lindau is on the German/Swiss/Austrian border)

Srdjan Mitrovic

Lindau, 12.Aug (sda)
The Bosnian economy minister Fikret Abdic has been not allowed
to enter Austria because a machine gun has been found in one of
his accompanying cars. The machine gun has been seized and the 
owner arrested by Bavarian police before the minister could 
continue toward Switzerland.
It is unknown if he entered Switzerland or not.
.......
Wednesday evening, a Swiss official said that a man named
Fikret Abdic, who named his profession as musician was given
a visum for Monday and Tuesday. This person has left toward
Italy.
From: sk@groo.sunbim.be (Sasa Konecni)
Subject: Re: THE ABORIGINAL GOVERNMENT OFFICIALLY RECOGNISES THE INDEPENDENCE OF MACEDONIA
Reply-To: sk@sunbim.be ()
Organization: BIM Everberg Belgium
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 92 18:18:53 GMT


 panos>  Nope, it's not. But still laughing about the aboriginal
 panos> goverment of Australia.  Shouldn't we?

>Sasa.

 panos> -- ---> Panos Tamamidis
 panos>      University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign

No we should not laugh about such matters. Because the Grieks
scoff at the existance of an Aboriginal 
Government, just like they do with their Macedonian Minority.

But the Macedonians, are very grateful to the Aboriginal
Community for their Great Understanding!

   The Macedonians and Aboriginals have both faced harsh
oppression. We have the common ain of Human Rights, something
that everyone in the world should pursue. Even our flags are
both red and black with the golden sun symbol in the center.

   What the E.C. told the Macedonians in Lisbon is identical
to what the Aboriginal band "Yothu Yindi" sufferred at the
Catani Bar in Melbourne. Then the world condemned Australian
Policies & Discrimination, and soon after the band swept
up the Music Awards.

   This same world condemnation will soon come down upon the
E.C. like ten tons of bricks. Shame Australia. Shame E.C.

Sasa.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
= Sasa Konecni                     e-mail: sk@sunbim.be           =
= BIM   sa/nv                      tel:    +32 (2) 759.59.25      =
= Research & Development           fax:    +32 (2) 759.47.95      =
= Kwikstraat 4,   B-3078 Everberg,    Belgium                     =
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,misc.headlines
Subject: Re: More Sarajevo notes
From: kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay)
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 92 18:39:08 GMT
Organization: The Old Frog's Almanac, Vancouver Island, CANADA

In article <4eWo9uG00WB68QlbYf@andrew.cmu.edu> Radu Eugen Edelstein <re0x+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:

>The images I saw were bad enough, Beirut-like, to indicate that
>life is hell in Sarajevo (if one is alive).

Makes one wonder which media Mr. Parker is following...

Did anyone else see the French films from Serbian camps? The scenes showed
folks who are clearly being starved to death, and reminded one of the photos
from the liberated camps after WWII - I've been surprised that I haven't
seen more commentary on the films, or other sources with the same
information... 

-- 
"(Later , I was to learn that we were at Bergen-Belsen; that this hastily
 built camp beside a firing range had been occupied, until our arrival, by
 women, and that it needed no gas chambers because death came by another
 route, that of phenol injections into the heart.)" Fania Fenelon - p240.
From: pnmideast@igc.apc.org
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Date: 19 Aug 92 19:07 PDT
Subject: Updated list of peace grps in x-YU
Nf-ID: #N:cdp:1475300367:000:2826
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!pnmideast    Aug 19 19:07:00 1992


From: <pnmideast>
Subject: Updated list of peace grps in x-YU

/* Written  3:22 pm  Aug 19, 1992 by gn:warresisters in cdp:yugo.antiwar */
/* ---------- "Updated list of peace grps in x-YU" ---------- */
(18 August 1992)

Anti-war centres and contacts in former-Yugoslavia

Bosnia-Herzegovina:

International Peace Centre, Sarajevo (tel Ibrahim Spahic +38 71
646455; fax +38 71 663730 or 663626; email zlatljiljan@gn.apc.org)

Croatia:

Centre for Peace, Nonviolence, and Human Rights, Tkalci~eva 38,
41000 Zagreb (tel +38 41 422 495;  fax + 38 41 271 143; email
ark_zg@zamir-zg.comlink.apc.org) 

Antiwar Campaign Croatia (ARK), Tkalciceva 38, 41000 Zagreb (tel +38
41 422 495;  fax + 38 41 271 143; email ark_zg@zamir-
zg.comlink.apc.org) 

Democratic Forum Rijeka (tel Sura Dumanic +38 51 713291)

Kosova:

Democratic League of Kosova, Prishtine (tel +38 38 24234; tel/fax
+38 38 27660)

Macedonia:

Green Action Skopje, c/o Jovan Nansijevski (Tel: +38 91 213 966;
fax: +38 91 201 75)

Forum for Human Rights of Macedonia, c/o Meto Jovanovski, St. P.
Zografski 51, 91000 Skopje (tel +38 91 219 067)

Women for Peace, Skopje tel +38 91 210627; fax 236856

Montenegro:

Citizens Committee for Peace, Hercegovacka 15, 81000 Titograd
(tel/fax: +38 81 41914)

Serbia:

Centre for Anti-War Action, Prote Mateje 6, 11000 Belgrade (tel and
fax +38 11 431 298; email zamir-bg@comlink.apc.org)

GAMA (Citizens Action for Peace), Prof Milandin Zivotic, Dom
Omladine, Makedonska 22, 11000 Belgrade

Women in Black, c/o Stasa Zajovic, Dragoslava Popovica 9/10, 11
Belgrade (tel: Lepa, +38 11 624 701)

Slovenia: 

Peace Institute, Mestni trg 13, 61000 Ljubljana (tel +38 61 224 666;
email mirovniki@uni-lj.ac.mail.yu)

Centre for the Culture of Peace and Nonviolence, Mestni trg 13,
61000 Ljubljana (tel +38 61 224 666; email mirovniki@uni-
lj.ac.mail.yu)

Vojvodina:

Anti-War Centre of Ada, Vera Vebel, Sencanski Put 27, 24430 Ada
Anti-War Centre of Novi Sad, c/o Nenad Mirovic, Narodnog Fronta 43,
21000 Novi Sad (+38 21 363 302; fax: +38 21 57 797)

European Civic Centre for Conflict Resolution, trg Cara Jovana
Nenada 15, 24000 Subotica (tel +38 24 24600; fax 37116)

Peace Movement of Pancevo, c/o Sasa Marinkovic, Br Jovanovica 62a,
26000 Pancevo, Vojvodina (tel: +38 13 38 82; fax: +38 13 41 735)

Peace Movement Vojvodina, c/o Slavenka Ljubic, Maksima Gorkog
10/III, 2100 Novi Sad (tel: +38 21 619 019)

Women in Black, Biljana Regodic, Vojvodanska 53, 26000 Pancevo (tel:
+38 512 641)

A few international addresses:

Mi Za Mir, PO Box 4920, 1009 AX Amsterdam, Netherlands (fax +31 20
665 2422) (all nationalities)

Zene Za Mir, c/o Martin-Niemoeller-Haus, Pacellialee 61, D-W-1000
Berlin 33, Germany (women; all nationalities)

Di YU log for Peace 3411 W. Diversey Parkway Chicago, IL  60647 (+1
312 384 8544; fax 384 3904)
From: re0x+@andrew.cmu.edu (Radu Eugen Edelstein)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Clarification:  Are Troops From "Proper Serbia" engaged ?
Date: 14 Aug 92 04:23:28 GMT
Organization: Masters student, Information Networking Institute, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA

According to the media, Belgrade denies that any of its forces
are engaged in Serbia.  What is the reality ?
I believe it is important in the light of the fact that an embargo
is in effect against Serbia and that many on this group advocate
military action against Belgrade, not only on the separatist Serbians
in Bosnia.
Please respond with verifiable facts, not with your opinion about it.

Rad
From: nyu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Radu's Doubts
Date: 14 Aug 92 16:16:52 GMT
Organization: New York University


In article AeWnz7m00WB68QlaoK@andrew.cmu.edu, Radu Eugen Edelstein <re0x+@andrew.cmu.edu> () writes:
> What is the reason for Trudjman to quote the former inmate's
> opinion on Jewish religion and character ?  Why did he feel it
> was needed to include in his book such gross antisemitic remarques ?
> Does Trudjman agree with the testimonies presented in his book ?
> Are ther testimonies given by Jewish inmates that he quotes ?
> 
> I believe the two postings raise these questions and many others.
> Definitely more information about Trudjman's book and his
> opinions are needed, but the two passages in his book are signs that
> many would interpret as antisemitism on the behalf of the Croatian
> leader.
> Rad


Radu, the anti-semitism of Trudjman has never really been questioned
(though I do have doubts about any translation that Milan Stojanovic
presents). So what. Richard Nixon was a raving anti-semite. Did that
mean that Canada and Mexico would legitimately have had the right to supply
Canadians and Mexicans in the US with heavy artillery and air support
as they shelled and bombed civilians of the US to ethnic cleanse them.
Would reminding us all of the wars we fought with Canada (54.40 or fight)
and Mexico (Remeber the Alamo) have given them legitimacy.

Are you suggesting that the fascist Sloban Milosevic is invading Croatia
and Bosnia-Herzegovina (which Trudjman is not in charge of) to protect
Jews from the anti-semitism?

Here. Trudjman is a fascist. During WWII, Croatia was a Nazi puppet.
Tell me how that explains the shelling of civilians in Croatia and
Bosnia-Herzegovina today.
Xref: sparky soc.culture.yugoslavia:8032 soc.culture.bulgaria:1162 soc.culture.greek:7618