From: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay)
Subject: Re: Israel's peace talks with Syria
Reply-To: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au
Organization: Australian National University
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 05:26:58 GMT

In article 17358@discus.technion.ac.il, davidba@carmel.technion.ac.il (David Ben_Ami) writes:
>In article <1992Sep11.215207.18191@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> wmuhanna@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Waleed A Muhanna) writes:
>>In article <1992Sep11.174905.11245@cs.brown.edu> hm@cs.brown.edu (Harry Mamaysky) writes:
>>>In article <1992Sep11.165605.9014@usl.edu>, pssres12@ucs.usl.edu (Vignes Gerard M) writes:
>>>...
>>>Your paraphrasing ability is most commendable. However, your perspective of
>>>history is not.
>>
>>No.  Your grasp on reality, Harry, is tenuous here.
>>
>>>Israel has *NEVER* been the aggressor in the Israeli-Arab
>>>disputes.
>>
>>Nonsense.  Without arguing about 1948 and 1967, I'll just mention 1957
>>and 1982 (Israeli invasion of Lebanon).  In 1973 Egypt and Syria
>>attacked toliberate their territories.  There was no aggression in 1973,
>>no attempt to acquire new territories.
>
>I think that Nasser and Assad are not aware of your theory - their 
>stated goal was to annihilate "The Zionist entity" - this is the stated
>goal even today of Syria (changing fast but ...)
>
>>
>>>When Israel has launched attacks against Arab targets it has
>>>*ALWAYS* done so either in retaliation for past Arab terrorist activity, or
>>>(as in the case of the Six Day vistory) to insure a strategic advantage in an
>>>inevitable conflict.
>>
>>Hogwash.  Expansionism and colonization ranked high among its motivations,
>>and sadly it still does today.  Zionists, since Hertzl, make no secret
>>about this. Ben-Gurion's conception was that "a Jewish state...will serve
>>as an important and decisive stage in the realization of Zionism," but only
>>a *stage*: the borders of the state "will not be fixed for eternity,"
>>but will expand either by agreement with the Arabs "or by some other
>>way," once "we have force at our disposal" in a Jewish State.  His
>>long-term vision included Jordan and beyond, sometimes even
>>"the Land of Israel" from the Nile to the Euphrates.
>>
>>As early as 1938, Ben-Gurion had told a Zionist meeting: "I favor partition of
>>the country because when we become strong power after the establishment
>>of the state, we will abolish partition and spread throughout all of
>>Palestine."
>>
>>Likud's platform includes the *East* bank of the Jordan river as part of
>>Israel.  Don't tell me that this is for defensive reasons too.
>
>Well, The Jewish people is claiming the whole of Palestine from the
>early days of Zionism We claim it not only for the current inhabitants
>but for the whole 13 millions Jews of the world. This is the foundation
>of Zionism. We are readt to setlle for Peace in the current borders of
>Western Palestine. That is Israel of the 1949 lines + (maximalist) WB
>& Gaza. Today this is the final frontier - more than half of the
>Israelis are ready to return to 2.6.67 borders and that will follow
>soon from the Madrid process. Israel have no more power and enthusiams
>to demand anything - Israel is exhausted.
>
>>
>>>In fact, Israel has traditionally gone to great pains in order to prevent as
>>>many civilian casualties as possible.
>>
>>Tell that to the children of the intifada who are dying daily at the
>>hand of your heroic foces.   Tell that to the thousands of civilians
>>who have been dying in the villages and refugee camps in Lebanon as
>>a result of Israeli bombing.
>
>Well, I'll have to tell them that even if one is taking great pains,
>sometimes One must make this when the other side's insolence and hatred
>passes all borders.
>
>I think that most of those children were slaughtered by their delightful
>"shock commities" buddies - so it has nothing to do with the IDF.
>
>>
>>>This is a historically proven and
>>>accurate fact.
>>
>>This is your pure, self-righteous, fantasy; history and facts speak
>>otherwise.  Your assertions are simply myths.
>>
>>>Since the earliest days of the Jewish liberation struggles
>>>against Britain, all Jewish revolutionaries tried to avoid civilian casualties
>>>if *AT ALL* possible.
>>
>>Tell that to the inhabitants of Deir Yassin and other villagers, old men
>>women and children, massacred in cold blood.  Read up on the tactics of
>>Irgun and the Stern Gang of thieves and thugs used to terrorize and
>>kill civilians.  Recall that it was Yitzhak Shamir who, in an attempt to
>>justify the tactics of thugs like him, claimed in 1943 that "Neither Jewish
>>ethics nor Jewish tradition can disqualify terrorism as a means of combat."
>
>I smell a gross lie here! can you cite your source?
>There were many more incidents when "thugs" called off an operation
>(attack on British officer) just becuase his wife was in the car, and
>risked brutal punishment (or even death) when captures. another story
>tells about a group of "thugs" who planed derailing a British ,military
>train and in the last minute they noticed that the wrong train is going
>to be hurt and in personal danger removed the bomb. This is true of all
>3 organizations. 
>
>I think that Israelis would have been in deep trouble if they had such
>a rivals in the Arab side - Heroic yet human fighters would have made
>a lot more imapct than the cowards of Munchen/Maalot/Sabena/BG Airport
>etc.
>
>Pushing busses over the cliff, putting bombs in bread loaves is both
>less hurting and antagonizes the whole world toward the PLO.
>>
>>>This is still the policy of the IDF. Even in the Lebanon
>>>operation of 1982, Israel risked Jewish infantry lives in attacking terrorist
>>>positions (as opposed to air bombing the entire area) so as to avoid any
>>>innocent casualties.
>>
>>Tell that to the 20,000 civilians who died and the other thousands who
>>were maimed as a result of Israeli use of cluster and incendiary bombs
>>on civilian areas during its invasion of Lebanon.  Even hospitals were
>>bombed.
>
>Again, if Israel was adopting Arab standards - 50-100K were minimum of
>the Arab bloodshed - 20K is much but considering the opponents and the
>mess in Lebanon , I think the Lebanese can thank themselves for
>absorbing the wrath of Israel and not oif Syria. Remember the 10K Syrians
>of El-Hama. 
>
>>>In fact, your claim that Israel has ever attacked Arab civilian targets is
>>>outrageous.
>>
>>No.  The fact that you have the balls to deny it is what is profoundly
>>outrageous.  This sort of utter denial comes close to those twits who
>>deny that the Holocaust has happened.  Take off your blinders and face
>>up to reality.
>
>I'm sure that many such mistakes (and sometimes deliberate action of
>Israeli officers) has occured and there's no point in denying it. I
>think that on the whole - Israel kept an amazingly clean record of 
>ciovilian pop. abuse relative to the mass of hostility it had to
>contend with. I think that the Allies in WWII and Iraq towards lesser
>equalities swept along much more harshly - since there are no political
>gains to make - this is usually forgotten.
>
>Walleed may quote many incidents but he must remember that Israel suffered
>more or less 40 years of Hostility in the utmost levels with no ally in
>the region and contends with hostile population that keeps dreaming of
>its total destruction - once you have this in mind you can understand 
>that violence against citizens is inevitable and Isreal must strive to
>minimize it - but approacing zero will mean Death to Israel.
>>
>>Enough said.
>>
>>Waleed Muhanna
>>-=-
>>"The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed
>>by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing
>>about them." -- George Orwell, "Notes on Nationalism," 1945
>
>David.
>-- 
>=============================================================================
>  David Ben-Ami (irc: bigdav)      |   "I can resist anything but Temptation"
>  s2780369@Techst02.Technion.Ac.Il |       Oscar Wilde
>  davidba@Carmel.Technion.Ac.Il  davidba@Moav.Techniona.Ac.Il