HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: Godfrey de Shipbrook <jlee@smylex.UUCP>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Eulogy for Axel Bandit
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 93 21:54:54 EST
Organization: Shipbrook Software  (Tampa, FL)

Greetings from Godfrey!

Lothar writes, in response to an article of mine:
>>
>>Bearing that in mind, I have a hard time believing that he was simply
>>standing around out of the way and was immediately set upon by that
>>scourge of fun everywhere, the dreaded (insert diminished 7th chord
>>here, sforzando-piano with crescendo) *Authenticity Police*.
>>
> Nonsense! The *Authenticity Police* with their funny 15th C. hats and
> period truncheons generally do not exist. They are an SCA boogeyman.

I beg of you, do not misunderstand me, milord!  I agree with you 
completely; I fear mine attempt at levity must have been lost 
somewhere in the AEther.  (I've noticed, with some sadness, that
dry humour often does not survive the journey through this medium...)


+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Net:  Jeff Lee / jlee@smylex.uucp / jlee%smylex.uucp@tscs.tscs.com     |
| SCA:  Lord Godfrey de Shipbrook / Wyvernwood, Trimaris                 |
|       Per pale azure and argent, a clarion counterchanged or and gules |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
    "The only thing that helps me maintain my slender grip on reality
    is the friendship I share with my collection of singing potatoes."
Organization: University of Central Florida--Computer Services
Date: Monday, 11 Jan 1993 13:10:50 EST
From: <ELDREDGE@UCF1VM.BITNET>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Pennsic

I need DATE info for Pennsic immediately so that my lord and I may get syn-
chronous vacation time.  Please E-MAIL ==ONLY== to ELDREDGE@UCF1VM.BITNET.

Thanks,
Catherine Elizabeth
(Cynthia Eldredge)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: tbarnes@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (thomas wrentmore barnes)
Subject: Re: Tadhg's Preferred Geographic Area
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 19:04:44 GMT

Heresy! 

Tadhg's definition also excludes Rome, Saintiago de Compestella and
Jerusalem! (Not to mention all of the Byzantine Empire, Italy and Spain,
plus most German speaking areas). But, hey, we can live without those
pissant places, they didn't have any effect on people in the Middle
Ages. It's not like people like St. Martin, St. Gregory, Frederick
Barbarossa, Henry IV HRE, Martin Luther, St. Boniface, Dante Aligheri,
Giovanni Boccaccio or Cosimo de Medici came from there or anything.
And nobody borrowed money or bought spices from Italy, silk from
Byzantium or weapons, armor and wine from Germany. And , geez!, we can
don't need no stinking Levant on North Africa to mess up our game.
Afterall, all it has is a bunch of old Greek and Latin manuscripts that
a bunch of silly Arabs preserved from the Roman empire. Oh, yeah, it has
a stupid place called the "Holy Land" but nobody would want to go there
would they? And North Africa's utterly useless, the only person who ever
lived there were St. Augustine of Hippo, and the Vandals, and a bunch of
Arabs who took over Spain and nearly overran Europe. It's not like St.
Louis of France fought in Egypt or anything. I say who needs 'em.

	In fact, I say we restrict the scope of the SCA to just the Aran
Islands. We can all live in a monestary on top of a rock. We'll eat
oatmeal and fish and seaweed and Tadgh can be our Abbot. Now THAT's fun.

	Lothar (who is either in Tadgh's boundry, or out of Tadgh's
boundry, depending on what the Archbishop of Mainz is up to and whether
or not he is at his Lord's court or at his home castle.) 

(This posting has been :) :) 'd for the humor impaired).

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: icklinck@cayley.uwaterloo.ca (Ian "Rhys" Klinck)
Subject: Re: dollar cost for awards
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 15:38:40 GMT

In article <9301081505.aa10872@mc.lcs.mit.edu> SAUNDRSG@qucdn.queensu.ca (Graydon) writes:
>
>Far better, I think, to set up a goal (shoot a 14 score yard clout with
                                              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

The trick being, of course, to find a 14-score yard range... We have enough
trouble just getting any archery at an event around here, especially in the
winter season!

However, I do agree with the sentiments expressed in your missive.  I,
personally, shoot a modern recurve.  I would like to "upgrade" to a "real
longbow" eventually, but between the cost and what I know it will do to my
scores, I'm really hesitant.  I guess if longbows were given special
consideration (as little as a separate class, even - which, I suppose, would
require more longbow(wo)men than there are currently, to make it worthwhile),
that would counter the scoring problem... now if we could only do something
about that cost thing...

Admitting to being a bit of a competitive sort,
Rhys.
From: Godfrey de Shipbrook <jlee@smylex.UUCP>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: 1st Event For An Enthusiastic Teen
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 93 21:58:58 EST
Organization: Shipbrook Software  (Tampa, FL)

Greetings from Godfrey!

Moreach writes:
> 
> Just tell him to be as polite and gentlemanly as he would imagine a knight
> to be, and to remember that we are none of us peasants,

Unless, of course, we *want* to be.  I know several who choose to be 
beggars and peasants...

+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Net:  Jeff Lee / jlee@smylex.uucp / jlee%smylex.uucp@tscs.tscs.com     |
| SCA:  Lord Godfrey de Shipbrook / Wyvernwood, Trimaris                 |
|       Per pale azure and argent, a clarion counterchanged or and gules |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
    "The only thing that helps me maintain my slender grip on reality
    is the friendship I share with my collection of singing potatoes."
From: cozzlab@garnet.berkeley.edu ()
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Knitting
Date: 6 Jan 1993 21:44:46 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: garnet.berkeley.edu

In article <726271111snx@sloth.equinox.gen.nz> bloodthorn@sloth.equinox.gen.nz (Jennifer Geard) writes:
>
>  > This same book also tells gloves were not made by knitting, they were sewn
>  > by needle. .....
>
>Aha!  That book discusses "nalebinding"....
>Nalebinding seems to be the basic technique used for 
>Viking mittens and such, is much more appropriate for many of our earlyish 
>SCA persona than knitting, and I can't find instructions on how to do it!  

I came in on the middle of this discussion so I can't tell whether "the book
that discusses nalebinding" is Margrethe Hald's _Ancient Danish Textiles..._
or not.  If that *is* the book you've been talking about, well, yes, it
gives you diagrams (in up to three colors) about every form of nalebinding
Hald could find out about; but it doesn't precisely tell you how to do it.

Maybe what we need is somebody with some time and energy to spare (students
on break?  Empty-nesters?  Little old grannies?) to sit down with Hald's
diagrams and see what can be worked out.  The photos in Hald's book
indicate that she made herself a suitable needle (they're short and stubby)
and sat down and worked some of these things herself.  Are there any
interested Drachenwalders within reach of the National Museum in Copenhagen
who could investigate stuff that might be in the museum but didn't get
into the book?

Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin		Dorothy J. Heydt
Mists/Mists/West			UC Berkeley
Argent, a cross forme'e sable		cozzlab@garnet.berkeley.edu

Disclaimer:  UCB and the Cozzarelli lab are not responsible for my
opinions, and in fact I don't think they know I have any.
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: cctimar@athena.cas.vanderbilt.edu (Charles the clerk)
Subject: Re: authenticity
Organization: Shire of Glaedenfeld
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 08:38:39 GMT

To all upon the Rialto doth Charles the clerk send his greetings!

Peder Klingrode writeth:
> A piece is authentic enough if you can't tell it from the Real Thing.
> How it was made doesn't matter to me.

Once again, "authentic enough" will vary.  I agree with the basic
principle that Peder describes, but I would say,

   "For our purposes, an item is authentic if nobody who sees it
	can see that it isn't."

Obvoiusly, this is a subjective definition, depending on the audience.
While any mundane can see that blue jeans, sneakers, and neon orange
T-shirts are not period, it is impossible to fool the determined
archaeologist with the C-14 dating equipment.

The solution: just because you can't make it appear authentic to C-14
testing, you should still strive to pass as many other tests as possible.
You won't learn anything by giving up.
--
    -- Charles, student, in Glaedenfeld, Meridies
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: schuldy@progress.COM (Mark Schuldenfrei)
Subject: Re: fealty
Organization: Progress Software Corp.
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 22:11:37 GMT

Graydon writes:
  Given that SCA fealty practices are less than ideal, and that
  we're going to keep Crown Tournies, the definition of Crown
  (Sovereign and Consort acting in concert) presently in Corpora,
  and that the beauracracy is a seperate problem, what is the
  minimum set of principles neccessary to define a fealty structure
  that would be suitably period and praticable?
  

I've been thinking about this question for a while, and either
the answer is very deep, or it's very simplistic.

Fealty (and the family of relationships that are lumped into it
when SCA people use the word) are a series of personal commitments.
Trying to turn them into quasi-government of the SCA, seems artificial.

All fealty relationships need, as I understand them, are the following.
Two people of equivalent social class, so that they feel they may
make an agreement between them.  Property or services that should be
exchanged, and a form of payment.  An oath or promise is made, usually
with witnesses.

That's pretty loose, but that's it.

Now, if you were asking how to formalize fealty relationships within
the governance of the Society, that's a bigger question.  My question
would be "Why bother?"

	Tibor
--
Mark Schuldenfrei (schuldy@progress.com)
[I'm just showin' you my opinions: this ain't a gift]
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: schuldy@progress.COM (Mark Schuldenfrei)
Subject: Re: Heraldic questions...
Organization: Progress Software Corp.
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 22:25:50 GMT

I'm outta this discussion.

Time and again, conversations on the net with Tadhg drift from a
fascinating, if narrowminded attempt to convert people to Tadhg's
point of view, through some very fact filled displays of selective
information.

Quickly, however, these debates turn into linguistical nitpicks,
logical games, disputations over irrelevant points, and finally,
ad hominem attacks and insults repeatedly thrown and then denied
or restated.  Not to mention the development of a deliberately
enraging style of prose.

These have caused long term flamewars on the Heralds net, several
times, and a few on the Rialto as well.  Not to mention a lot
of hurt feelings, and hard times.  Tadhg is insulated in a cocoon
of smug self-righteousness and badinage, but that's small consolation
for those who expect consideration for their points of view.

In any case, perhaps we will talk again some time, Tadhg.  But as
my parting shot, I thought I would warn people that this pattern
could have been predicted, and no doubt will be repeated.  If Tadhg
annoys you as much as I expect, stop answering.  No doubt he will
snipe at you a few times in public, or pick on other postings of
yours.  Sooner or later, however, it ends.

	Tibor
--
Mark Schuldenfrei (schuldy@progress.com)
[I'm just showin' you my opinions: this ain't a gift]
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: 71431.167@compuserve.COM (REED E HARRIG)
Subject: The length of Reigns
Organization: The Internet
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 15:18:59 GMT

Greetings all,
In a coversation between William and Dennis

D> Except that I feel the primary duties of the Monarchs is to get
D> around, visit their domain, see that their Kingdom is healthy
D> in every corner of it.

W] Don't you think that longer reigns would make this easier to fit
W] into the Royalty's schedule and wallets?

D> I think that would make the visits to rare. If you only see
D> your dentist once a decade, you won't notice the bad filling
D> till too late (this wisdom from personal experience).

D> As to wallets, Royal travel to each of their subdomains
D> once per reign ought to be subsidized, I think.

D> All IMHO, of course.

I agree with Dennis that shorter reigns are the best way for go (for
lots of different reasons) if your goal is to have regular Royalty
visits for the following reasons:

New Royalty are fresh and energetic.
Frequent Crown Tourneys increase the chance that a fighter from the
   more distant groups might win.
Frequent Crown Tourneys increase the chance that a financially capable
   couple will be on the throne.
There are too many groups in the larger kingdoms for one set of royalty
   to make it to all the groups even in two years (Midrealm has over
   100 groups, Ansteorra about 45, Drachenwald about 30)

Unless a kingdom completely subsidized the Royalty travel, very few
couples could afford to go to all those groups.  Most kingdoms would be
hard pressed to subsidize royalty at that level for very long.  Spread
the joy around and the work load too.
 
-Palymar

"smile dear, we have just 40 more groups, courts and events to go till
we can turn over the throne.  It shouldn't take much more than a year"
From: nusbache@epas.utoronto.ca (Aryk Nusbacher)
Subject: Election of Kings (was Re: Crown tourneys
Organization: University of Toronto - Office of the Provost
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 19:20:39 GMT


Kings and queens of the United Kingdom are still ritually elected.  At the
end of the Coronation, the monarch is acclaimed by the Choir of
Westminster.  Admittedly, this is a fine illustration of the term
"foregone conclusion", but there it is.
From: dillon@world.std.com (John T Dillon)
Subject: Re: Dollar Cost of Awards
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 04:34:33 GMT


There is a cost involved in getting awards?

  And here I was using my hobbies to justify spending money on my tool, book
and fabric collections...  

  A dangly really has little appeal compared to a set of really nice tools 
that you know like your own hands.  Or the faithful if finicky sewing machine 
that brings back fond memories of assorted outfits at each stitch.  Or the
thrill of figuring out how to build your latest project.  

  An award is simply the fact that someone has noticed your projects and
activities amongst many, some get noticed others don't.  Yes there can be 
a cost associated with awards, but if you are looking at awards as things 
that must be gained and your money and effort is how they are bought, you are 
missing out on the best part of the SCA.  The sheer joy of making something
that might have existed in period, and the knowledge that you have the skills
even if no one else knows it.

John McGuire
  
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You wear a simple outfit from Janet Arnold's _Patterns_Of_Fashion_
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: "Michael Squires" <mikes@cs.indiana.edu>
Subject: Re: period firearms
Keywords: firearms
Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 11:44:37 -0500

In article <1993Jan8.073829.19638@sol.cs.wmich.edu> Dale@sol.cs.wmich.edu (Dale Gee) writes:
>In article <1993Jan8.005201.16889@news.cs.indiana.edu> "Michael Squires" <mikes@cs.indiana.edu> writes:
>>
>>I talked with a Williamsburg gunsmith some time ago and he said that although
>>they could build guns with forge welded barrels as was done in the 18th 
>>century they refused to do it for sale, as it was impossible to be certain
>>that the barrel would not explode later as a crack propagated with age and
>>stress.
>>
>I keep hearing this argument about the failure rate of period firearms.
>I would suggest you take a look at a revolutionary war reenactment.  
>The weapsons they use don't blow up.  They use replicas made with modern
>materials and techniques.  I have never know the society to be so exacting
>that we are worried about period materials.  Remember we have people fighting
>in lexan armour.  This concept of period firearms is the most interesting
>thing I have seen to come along in years.  I don't think we will ever see
>period firearms in the SCA.  Which is more of a lost to the SCA than the
>people who want to pursue this.  

We're not disagreeing here about the best method of making a barrel for a
matchlock.  The Rev War people mostly use modern steels and methods of
making barrels, which is what Williamsburg does also.

On the other hand the Middle Kingdom, at least, does not have the people
currently available to safely supervise the firing of period firearms.  The
Rev War people I talked to who also played in the SCA tended to agree with
this; unless the weapons are inspected by knowledgable gunsmiths and their
use very carefully monitored (which is why Rev and Civil War events are so
carefully choreographed) the dangers greatly outweigh the benefits.

Remember that it is sometimes difficult at an event to find someone who can
really inspect welds on helmets, and firearms are much more difficult to
inspect.

-- 

Mike Squires (mikes@cs.indiana.edu)     812 855 3974 (w) 812 333 6564 (h)
mikes@cs.indiana.edu          546 N Park Ridge Rd., Bloomington, IN 47408
From: branwen@cerebus.ccc.amdahl.com (Karen Williams)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Non fighting royalty
Date: 4 Jan 93 19:10:42 GMT
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA

In article <wfEzeuK00WB=8FiNMV@andrew.cmu.edu> ds4p+@andrew.cmu.edu (David Schroeder) writes:

>Would it take ANY revisions to Corpora (or most kingdom's laws)
>for the King and Queen to announce that ONLY those combattants
>able to submit a list of 30 (or some other large number) other
>fighters willing to attend Crown Tourney and fight as their 'army' 
>would be considered 'acceptable' to compete in the upcoming Crown?

It probably wouldn't change the entrants to the list much, either,
since the "I'll sign your list if you sign mine" factor would come
into play.

Branwen ferch Emrys
The Mists, the West


--
                                          Karen Williams
                                          branwen@cerebus.ras.amdahl.com
"Don't whine. Warrior women speak in a husky whisper."
  -- Brat Pack #3
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: 71431.167@compuserve.COM (REED E HARRIG)
Subject: Oldest Rulers
Organization: The Internet
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1993 13:53:21 GMT

Greeting all,

Miles ask how old Tadashi was when he won Crown.  He was 40.  I
remember because it was during my second Reign that Tadashi won for his
lady Ariake.  BTW it was 17 years between Tadashi's two reigns and I
was in 4th grade when he won the first time.

-Palymar

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: jeffs@math.bu.EDU (Jeff Suzuki)
Subject: crown tourney
Organization: The Internet
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 19:11:48 GMT


From the person who brought you tanistry, how about an even more
period method of choosing rulers: chaos.  

OK, let's clarify that.  Say once you are King/Queen/Etc., you can be
"deposed".  (Perhaps further require that you _must_ step down within
six months) Deposition might follow Civil War (e.g., War of the Roses,
with victory going towards the winning _side_: the contender need not
even be a fighter), or just plain agreement that "Given the
alternatives, wouldn't you want to resign..."  (Alternatively, an
appropriate threat would cause the reigning ruler to name the
contender his or her successor) We could easily throw in a fronde or
two....this would result in interesting buy-offs, such as Kingly
creation of titles to prevent civil wars.  

Tio dell'abaco
From: keradwc@rahul.net (Kevin Davis Connery)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Dollar Cost of Awards
Date: 7 Jan 93 05:44:39 GMT
Organization: a2i network

John McGuire, in article <C0GvDM.3GL@world.std.com> dillon@world.std.com wrote:

> The sheer joy of making something
> that might have existed in period, and the knowledge that you have the skills
> even if no one else knows it.

Oh, something like "The Joy is In the Doing"?

Seems to me I've heard that somewhere before! <g>

Keradwc
-- 
Keradwc an Cai                     A Caidan Mistie (or was that a Misty Caidan?)
Kevin Davis Connery                kconnery@isi.com or  keradwc@rahul.net
From: Beth.Appleton@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Beth Appleton)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Drachenwald Kingdom ideas
Date: 4 Jan 93 22:45:48 GMT


 "E> Gwenllian:

>I know I should wait for Tibor before I open my mouth, but I was 95% 
>certain that Corpora specifies 2 reigns per year.

 "E> If I am not misinformed, the West has always had 3 reigns per year.
 "E> I have not found anything in the Organizational Handbook about the
 "E> length of reigns.
 Again, I feel as if I'm talking out of school, because I don't have 
 the appropriate reference to hand, but what I recall was that there 
 was a requirement to change kings a minimum of twice per year.  Lenght 
 of "term" wasn't specified, simply "a minimum of twice a year".
...
 "E> Do you really think
 "E> that you would not feel at home there? That you 
 "E> would not recognize this
 "E> as SCA? I believe that you *would* feel at home. 
 Okay, I'm a holder of a Grant of Arms, and 3 or 4 other awards/orders. 
 Do I get to have them all mentioned if we hold a March Of Precedence?
 This is kinda silly, in relation to the rest, but I still don't see that  you've answered my question, particularly.
     Gwenllian Cwmystwyth

 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
From: Tim@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Tim)
Sender: FredGate@ocitor.fidonet
From: doconnor@sedona.intel.com (Dennis O'Connor)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Name
Date: 8 Jan 93 10:45:47
Organization: Intel i960(tm) Architecture
NNTP-Posting-Host: potato.intel.com
In-reply-to: perkins@MSUPA.PA.MSU.EDU's message of 8 Jan 1993 06:48:18 GMT


perkins@MSUPA.PA.MSU.EDU writes:
] In article <726401403.F00002@ocitor.fidonet>, ~ Aindries
]
] It's from "Rivo Alto", Late Latin/Early Italian for Latin "Rivus Altus"
] (back when "v" was pronounced as modern English "w", which should make it
] clearer how the contraction came about).  "Rivus" == "brook or stream",
] classically, but in Medieval Latin occasionally was used to describe a
] brook or stream's banks.  "Altus" == "High", which when referring to bodies
] of water meant "deep". So it meant "deep stream" or maybe "high stream-bank".
] I haven't seen a reference which ventures to decide between the two, but
] the stream in question is Venice's Grand Canal, which runs along the island
] on which the Rialto lay, and which was spanned by the Rialto Bridge (and
] still is, for that matter, though it hasn't been the same structure
] continuously from the Middle Ages: the one there now dates only from the
] 1580s or so, I think).

And, to finish the story, in Shakespear's time, the Rialto was where
owners of merchant fleets would gather to get word of their ships.
From this comes the quote "What news on the Rialto?", uttered by
the merchant from _The Merchant of Venice_. The merchant was concerned
that his ships get back to Venice before his debt to Shylock came due.
From this quote comes the nickname of rec.org.sca ne alt.sca.
--
Dennis O'Connor			doconnor@sedona.intel.com
From: Tim@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Tim)
Sender: FredGate@ocitor.fidonet
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Heraldic questions...
Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1993 07:36:06

     Fr. John Woolley wrote:

 JW> Tim@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Tim) writes:
 JW> :  The African provinces of the Roman Empire produced, among other things,
 JW> :  Augustine and Pelagius

 JW> Pelagius was British.

 Sorry, that ought to have been "Pelagians" ... 8-)

 ("Donatists? Aren't they people who make pastries with holes in them...?")


 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)