From: roarf@stud.cs.uit.no (Roar Foshaug)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games,rec.games.programmer,comp.sys.amiga.games
Subject: Re: wishlist for the ultimate role-playing advent
Date: 4 Oct 92 13:55:56 GMT
Organization: University of Tromsoe, Norway

In article <1992Oct2.184338.26322@newshost.lanl.gov>, jlg@cochiti.lanl.gov (Jim Giles) writes:
|> For the ultimate *computer* driven role-playing game:
[...]
|> 
|> 3) Each player should be free to decide on an independent objective:
|>    whether it be making money, becoming famous, living peacefully,
|>    or whatever.  There should be no GM imposed victory conditions.
|> 
|> 4) The game should be mostly strategic in nature.  That is, few arcane
|>    and arbitrary puzzles which, once solved, are just a nuisance.  The
|>    game should consist of different players (and non-player characters)
|>    each competitively (or cooperatively) pursuing whatever their 
|>    objectives are.
|> 
|> 5) Since the game has no imposed victory conditions, the game can proceed
|>    for long periods of time - possibly forever.  The program should be
|>    extended with new forms of allowable interaction as the game technology
|>    improves.
|> 
|> The optimal game is like chess - it remains hard even after you've
|> played it for years.  This is not because of the game itself getting
|> harder, but because the competiveness of your opponents improves even
|> as you do.  Of course, chess has to limited a range of interactions
|> to be interesting as a role-playing game (state the obvious first:
|> a cardinal rule in writing).
|> 

I have some additional points. First, if a game has no victory conditions
then it becomes like the muds (only more *ultimate*, of course :).
I like muds in small doses, cause I think they get a little boring to
play after a while. The big feature of muds is of course building, but
that can hardly be placed under *role-play*, can it?

Chess was mentioned as an optimal game. Note, however, that chess has a
very clearly defined 'goal state' or 'victory condition'. Of course every
player is free to choose her/his own goal, but I doubt that such a person
would find anyone willing to play with them (except from chess-computers).

So what I suggest for a real role-playing game is a spesific problem to be
solved. If you have read "Dream Park" by <someone>, you get an idea. Although
I found the environment described in that book as a little too traditional
(clerics, thievs, warriors), it is a good idea. To complete the 'game'
all the players were needed. The driving force in the game (the game
master? (the Henderson guy)) could be implemented as a robot player, hinting
the players from time to time to make progress in the game.

|> There are two problems to solve: the types of permitted interaction
|> need to be many and very flexible; and the program needs to *learn*,
|> so that program controlled characters aren't static.  Different players 
|> should be permitted to converse through their characters (though doing 
|> so will allow you to guess which characters are player controlled and
|> which aren't - unless you can write a program which passes the
|> Turing test).  

Computer players will be quite easy to detect, but can still be made so
they understand quite a range of "spoken" sentences. To have a computer
player "learning" is a somewhat more obscure goal. A simple approach to
this is to let the computer player extend the scope of its "internal
knowledge bank" as time passes, or triggered by events in the game. This
way it looks as if the computer player learns, but actually it only reveals
more of its (pre-programmed) knowledge.

And no, it will not pass the Turing test just yet... :-(


The problems arise as soon as one tries to migrate from talking about
rpg's to actually design a game to be implemented. So far, I have mostly
concentrated on how to implement such a game, but I have not written one
yet... Perhaps never will...

B^]

|> -- 
|> J. Giles

-- 
Roar Foshaug                                      (roarf@stud.cs.uit.no)
Department of Computer Science
University of Tromsoe                             'oe' is '\o{}' in Tex
N-9000 TROMSOE, NORWAY                            'OE' is '\O{}' in Tex