From: cho@ucbeh.san.uc.edu
Newsgroups: alt.politics.clinton,misc.education,talk.politics.misc,sci.edu
Subject: Re: Why can't the liberals just admit that public education has failed?
Date: 21 Jan 93 11:21:25 EST
Distribution: world
Organization: Univ. of Cincinnati

> 
> 	The problem is there are too many hacks demanding more money and not
> showing any results.  I was fortunate enough to attend school in a district
> that is nationally ranked scholastically.

Where?  The $10,000 salary I received was in the early eighties.  I am not
aware of current first year salaries now.  I do know different salaries are
offered for different cities.  

> 	(BTW-a Master's will get you $29k there in the first year.)

Well, hey, I called, and you're close.  Cinti public schools offers $24,386
for 1st year teachers with a bachelor's and $26,833 for a first year teacher
with a master's.  This is a huge difference from Texas....where the pay isn't
nearly as good.  

This still is shabby considering how important the position is.  I worked far
more hours than what someone else said about 'leaving at 3:45'.  I had a 
computer club and a school paper running every afternoon, for which I was
not paid for.  But it is true, not all teachers were as willing to do that
as I was.
> 
> 	But right down (up?) the road in Dayton, they spend twice as much per
> pupil, yet score half as high on achievement tests.

You got facts to support that?
> 
> 	Which is why people say "money isn't the solution".
> 	In a way, they are right.  Throw open the field to anyone (not just
> those who have plodded through the certification process) and you'll get more
> qualified people.  The level of teaching in all schools will improve and we'll
> see kids with better educations.

Oh, I see...do you mean hire non-teachers, such as business people for example,
to teach math or business, and so on?  I have heard of that theory....there is
a certain skill/art to *teaching* that non-teachers sometimes lack.  For
example, *talking to someone* doesn't mean that they're learning anything. 
That theory may be OK in the college level, where lecture is more standard, and
practical knowledge very useful.  I think K-8 need to have some teaching
theory/practicum.

> 	No, it's not the teachers fault, it's all of ours for letting things
> get this way.  But when people see teachers (who aren't getting results) get a
> raise from $34k to $37k while the school cuts football, busing, and all
> "non-essential" programs, the people have a convenient target.  (See Forbes,
> Oct 12, 1992 for more info on that subject.)
> Brett

My opinion is that teachers and parents really don't expect enough out of a
student.  I think they (the students) have a far greater capacity for learning
but people just don't want to spend the energy 'making' them or getting them
to learn.  For example, my friend's child came home doing all these math
problems of counting 5 groups of 4, 5 groups of 5, etc., but there was no time
spent on memorization of the facts, which I feel is an area that is often left
out.   So we sat down and drilled him on the 'times tables' and showed him how 
to drill himself.  I think if parents helped to fill in the gap like that, it
would be very helpful.

Anyway, I think everyone's expectations have gone to the mediocre, lowering 
our standards to teach the generic child.  Even the children are afraid to be 
intellectually outstanding, as they feel embarrassed about it.  At least that's 
what kids have told me.

In trying to bring about 'equal' education for all, we've lowered our
standards.  I think it's an flagrant insult to everyone.

Regards,
Pamela

Newsgroups: alt.politics.clinton,alt.politics.elections,talk.politics.misc