From: Will Steeves <goid@zooid.guild.org>
Subject: Re: children as appendage
X-To: MIC OETTINGER
Organization: The Zoo of Ids
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 03:37:00 GMT

Mic.Oettinger@bbs.oit.unc.edu (Mic Oettinger) writes...
MO> In article <1992Aug20.014300.15626@zooid.guild.org> goid@zooid.guild.org (Wi
MO> teeves) writes:
MO> >Mic.Oettinger@bbs.oit.unc.edu (Michelle Oettinger) writes...
MO> >MO> In article <1992Aug3.203528.28265@leland.Stanford.EDU> dkeisen@leland.S
MO> o
MO> >MO> DU (Dave Eisen) writes:
MO> >MO> >
MO> >MO> >No we aren't anti-father. Really. We are anti-"forced to be a father
MO> >MO> >against my will." If you want to be a father, good for you. And if
MO> >MO> >you are having problems convincing a court of that, you will get,
MO> >MO> >at the very least, emotional support from us.
MO> >
MO> >MO> Are THESE the words of a man? Can I ask why you seem to think it's such
MO> >MO> great honor to be able to kill your own child just because you can't se
MO> ?
MO> >                              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
MO> >
MO> >Do not condemn what he says, because of his sex.  If we did it to you, woul
MO> >you call us sexist?  At any rate...
MO> >
MO> >He is *not* asking for the right to "kill" anyone.  He, like many people wh

MO> There is a problem here that none of you men are taking the time to think
                                 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Not very kind, Michelle.  Mind you, I agreed with many of the things you said,
so don't take this as a flame, but at the same time, please understand why
I would object to someone saying "none of you men..." as strenously as someone
saying "all of you women..."


MO> forever! You would not appreciate being put in that situation with your
             ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
MO> own child, so don't be so cruel as to think you could have the power to
    ^^^^^^^^^
MO> put a woman in that situation.

You may not know this, but a woman *did* put in that situation, and almost
two years later, I still cannot forgive her for what she did, nor can I get
over that loss.

When a woman doesn't want the child, she DOES have the power to take him/her
away from a possibly-willing father (as I was), but in cases where a man does
not wish to be a father, AT LEAST give him the right to not be forced to do
something that he feels unable to do, or in fact *is* unable to do.  At least
the child will still be alive, which is a LOT more than can be said when the
woman is unwilling to be a parent.


MO> would I ever be so bold as to claim men are scum who couldn't care less. I
MO> think woman who get abortions, no matter what the reason short of her life
MO> being in jeopardy, are heartless, selfish people whom I could never
MO> understand.

I agree to some extent with you, but I am uncomfortable with the notion of
forcing a woman to stay pregnant (Does this make me "pro-choice"?  If so,
then "very grudgingly" is an apt modifier...)

MO> There is always adoption if they cannot raise the child
MO> themselves, and please do not try to tell me drug babies could not get
MO> adopted. They are people too, and you do not have the authority to suggest
MO> the value of your life is greater than any other's.

I never made any such judgement.  In fact, I totally agree with you!

---
Will Steeves, goid@zooid.guild.org                      "Neil Hull is GOiD"
ZOOiD BBS, Toronto, Ontario - The Zoo Of Ids            "GOiDS Rule"
(416) 322-7876
---
 * SLMR 2.1a * Oxymoron : Intense Apathy
Newsgroups: alt.child-support,alt.dads-rights,soc.women