Newsgroups: alt.pagan

marty@world.std.com (Marty M HaleEvans) writes:
>
>However, I just can't get around hating what you call "feminine" women. 
>Aren't you making just as many assumptions about them based on their looks
>as you resent being made about yourselves? What is so liberating about 
>accepting only your own view of womanhood, just as those do who would force
>you into molds not of your own making? In short, where do you get off? You
>know, a lot of women just have softer personalities and express themselves
>differently than you do, and that's no reason to believe that they're
>necessarily patsies of the patriarchy.

You seem to be combining two things here to describe "feminine women": good
looks and "softer" personalities.  I'm going to address these separately.

I remember in very early school years how girls would run and jump and play
and get dirty just as much as boys.  Then pressures from parents and society
would come into play and we were encouraged to "act like little ladies",
that is, not get dirty or run around like the crazy kids we were.   We
were encouraged to be "soft", gentle and quiet-spoken.

I've known a few men with "softer", gentle personalities.  I've know lots
and lots of women with "softer" personalities.  Some of it may be gender
related, but I feel that most of it is societal conditioning.  Because
many women are conditioned into this state, I do admit to having a
bias against it in women.

I don't have a problem with naturally good looking women.  I do have a 
problem with women spending so much of their time trying to fit society's
image of beautiful.  Why do so many women have the idea that their
natural looks just aren't good enough, that they need "enhancing"?  
Because so many women buy into this, I do admit to having a bias against
artificial beauty (via makeup) as well.

>The point is that we as women can't continue to undermine each other the way
>this society wants us to. Societal pressures try to make us compete for men, 
>separate us from our elderwomen, and cutthroat each other for the few morsels
>of prestige and power they throw us. We can only change things if we stick
>together and refuse to play, and the things you've been saying seem to me to
>be only another variation. Start trying to see the Goddess in every woman you
>meet, and the God in every man. I used to do this on the subway as an exercise,

I have a hard time seeing a capital-G Goddess in a women who has suppressed
her natural abilities in order to attract mates or to fit in.  That, to me,
is not Goddess-like behavior!  I have a hard time admiring a women who has
intentionally done poorly in her classwork in order to keep her boyfriend.
Or a woman who selects her career based on a desire to fit in rather than
selecting one based on her talents and interest.  

Marty, do you really find a Goddess in women who do these things?  What
Goddess do you find?

>Also, you might want to take a look at why you get such a rush from proving
>other people wrong about you. Does it make you feel superior? Do you get a
>superiority rush from just being different? Don't we all need to connect rather
>than glory in our separateness? I had a therapist tell me once that I used a 
>strong "Pearls-before-the-swine" mindset to defend myself and overcompensate
>for a bad self-image. He was right, and it worked, but it sure was lonely.

I want to glorify my *individualness* (as opposed to separateness).  I want 
to associate with people who can appreciate me as I am.  I want friends
who have their own mind and use it.  

Sometimes I do get a rush of excitement when I feel like I breaking down 
barriers for women (by proving other people wrong about me, a women).  
When someone (could be a man or women!) hears that I am an engineer, 
they are often initially shocked.  Often enough, they will say something 
really stupid like "But you're so nice and pretty looking".  I just
hope that later on they will look at another women like myself and
think "Hmmm, I wonder if she's an engineer too", and start thinking of
women as potentially being engineers, not just secretaries and sales clerks.
Do you think that it is wrong of me to get a rush over this?

>Again, I only want to say this because I think I've done it; I recognize a
>not-very-happy path I went on, and try to get others to make a turnoff before
>I did. I wasted a lot of time. I suppose I'll get roundly flamed, but what the 
>hell. 
>
>Marty

I cenrtainly hope you don't consider this a flame, as I would appreciate 
a response in return!

Lynne
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lynne@hpnst.mayfield