HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: rseguine@buckeye.mitre.org (Roy SeGuine)
Subject: Re: Those Jokers at Lighthouse......
Organization: The MITRE Corporation
Distribution: usa
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1992 16:41:21 GMT

In article <1992Aug28.215359.701@count0.cmhnet.org> cgb@count0.cmhnet.org   
(Charles G. Bennett) writes:
> [munch]
> > And just how does one aquire one of these t-shirts ?
> > --
> > Ronald Pomeroy
> > Advanced Micro Devices
> > CAM Applications Group
> > rpomeroy@aunext3.amd.com
> 
> Second that question..
> -- 
> Chuck Bennett, BenaTong Consulting
> Harem Security (UNIX Consulting :-) )
> cgb@count0.cmhnet.org

I'll third that.  Hey Jonathan, HOW DO WE GET THESE T-SHIRTS?!!
---
Roy SeGuine  NeXT Cyberspace Architech 
*many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased* Dan12:4
	  	
USMail:	    	MITRE Corp 7525 Colshire Drive McLean Va. 22102
Voice:		(703) 883 - 7 double oh 7
Internet:	rseguine@buckeye.mitre.org  (NeXTMail) 
Sneakernet:	C203, W215
Destination:	NeXT World             End Of Line			
		
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: a74k110@titan.ucc.umass.edu (Chris Lloyd)
Subject: Re: Is BSD dead? 
Organization: University of Massachusetts, Amherst
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 23:41:59 GMT

In article <1992Aug27.183333.1@woods.ulowell.edu> perezc@woods.ulowell.edu writes:
>	I had the impression that NeXTStep was built on an outdated version
>of Mach (i.e. 2.0?).  Is NS3.0 built on top of Mach 3.0?  On the other hand,
>does it really matter if NS is built on top of Mach/BSD, Choros/SysV, or NT?
>What's more important is that NS be available across several hardware platforms
>and that it provide application interoperability with systems under different
>OS's.  My 2 cents worth.

NeXTSTEP 2.0 and 3.0 are based on Mach 2.6ish which is a bastard half-Mach
half-BSD kernel.  Theoretically a move to Mach 3.0 with a Unix single
server shouldn't *cough* pose as a problem for developers as the end result
would "look" the same, but internally be different.

As to whether it matters if NeXTSTEP is on top of Mach/BSD is a big YES.
The AppKit is engrained HEAVILY in Unix and Mach (moreso), IBM had problems
putting NeXTSTEP on AIX back in 1.0 days, 2.0 and 3.0 are *entrenched* in
Mach and Unix. I really do laugh at people saying "Oh yea, just put it on
NT or SYSV, whats the big deal?", the system is massive, and there are a lot
of apps out there, moves to another OS cause enormous problems when features
aren't the same, dont behave the same or just aren't there.

Yea, NT, Chorus/SYSV and Mach/BSD are fundamentally the same at a very high
level, but putting NeXTSTEP on the first two is like putting a Mercedes
body on a '68 Chevy, they are both cars, but there is a hell of a lot more
to do than just bolt two big parts together, if they even fit.

la la la,
-- 
::   Christopher Lloyd  ::  a74k110@titan.ucc.umass.edu  ::  Yrrid, Inc.    ::
::"He said he'd make me elite for $5...I think he wanted a sub or somethin'"::
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: shawn@monitor.com
Subject: Those Jokers at Lighthouse......
Reply-To: shawn@monitor.com
Organization: Monitor Company / IE
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 22:10:34 GMT

just got a brochure from the lighthouse folks about Diagram!, VOID, and  
Concurrence.  never ones to do things the 100% straight-laced way, the  
super-fine print on the back of the brochure goes as follows:

"(c) 1992 Lighthouse Design, Ltd. [blah blah blah about what is  
copyrighted and trademarked by who] Specifications are subject to change  
without notice.  But then, nothing in this world is really permanent, is  
it?  Add contents of 'Spice Sack' and stir.  For best results, fluff  
lightly with fork before serving.  If symptoms persist for more than 48  
hours, consult a physician.  This brochure printed on paper made from  
trees who specifically requested that they be made into paper following  
their natural and completely painless demise.  Please recycle.   
(Seriously.  This brochure is printed on 100% recycled paper, and is  
completely recyclable.  Please give it to a friend or dispose of it  
responsibly."

Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: perezc@woods.ulowell.edu
Subject: Re: Is BSD dead? 
Organization: University of Lowell
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 23:33:33 GMT

a74k110@titan.ucc.umass.edu (Chris Lloyd) writes:
>  shiva@vega.Stanford.EDU (Marcos Javier Polanco) writes:
>>The latest issue of UnixWorld states that the group at Berkeley  
>>responsible for BSD will disband after BSD4.4 is released. In other news,  
>>OSF/1 seems to be dead in the water; even the hard-core members of the OSF  
>>(IBM, HP, DEC) are cozying up to USL's SVR4.2, the one that uses the  
>>french Chorus microkernel. So the question is, will NeXT continue to carry  
>>the banner of Mach/BSD when the rest of the Unix community has gone SVR4  
>>and the PC community has gone NT?
>>
>>From a technical standpoint,would NeXTstep be just as capable running on  
>>top of NT or Chorus rather than Mach?
> 
> What does it matter? NeXT is trying to move away from Unix to begin with.
> I think the phrase "Exorcise Unix from Mach" was used at one point and NeXT
> has been consistently replacing elements of Unix with their own stuff.
> 
> There aren't that many Unix dependancies in the kits, but there are heavy
> Mach dependencies so I'd expect to see something more along the lines
> of a NeXTSTEP single server for Mach, and a token Unix one than any sort
> of Unix beef up.
> 
> I also know for a fact that AT&T has a System V single-server for Mach,
> so things tend to fall into NeXT pushing aside Unix altogether and leaving
> single servers for that while building up their own NeXTSTEP server and in
> the end getting all the worlds on top of one microkernel.
> 
> The banner NeXT carries is Mach/NeXTSTEP, not Mach/BSD.
> 
> la la la,
> -- 
> ::   Christopher Lloyd  ::  a74k110@titan.ucc.umass.edu 
	
	I had the impression that NeXTStep was built on an outdated version
of Mach (i.e. 2.0?).  Is NS3.0 built on top of Mach 3.0?  On the other hand,
does it really matter if NS is built on top of Mach/BSD, Choros/SysV, or NT?
What's more important is that NS be available across several hardware platforms
and that it provide application interoperability with systems under different
OS's.  My 2 cents worth.

Carlos
From: pitre@n5160d.nrl.navy.mil (Richard Pitre)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re:  NextStep 486 and misc. (was Re: Stability of Next...)
Date: 31 Aug 92 14:26:34 GMT

> I wholeheartedly concur with Matt on this point.  It galls me that I  
can't boot
> a PC from a different version of the operating system ...

Funny thing. The biggest and fastest growing COMPATIBILITY problems these  
days seem to be intraDOS. 
                                                        
SMIRK
                                                
- Richard
From: byer@adobe.com (Scott Byer)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NextStep 486 and misc. (was Re: Stability of Next...)
Date: 25 Aug 92 17:08:13 GMT
Reply-To: byer@adobe.com (Scott Byer)
Organization: Adobe Systems Incorporated

Philip McDunnough writes

> Yep the "beta" or whatever you want to call it has been
> around for a while.  Still doesn't make it a real product.
> When will one be able to buy it? And what does it have
> that OS/2 doesn't?

Well, OS/2 *is* missing a couple of things (and so is
NT).  But let's not this degrade into an NT-OS/2 war.
It's kinda the wrong group for that, eh? :-)

But, yeah, NT is vaporware as far as the general PC public
is concerned.  (And usually you don't even call something
'alpha' until it's functionally complete, which the
developer's pre-release of NT isn't.)

> The $69 is deceptive. Microsoft already mentioned the
> $500 figure, but of course it might change. The NeXTSTep
> PC figure of $1000 may or may not. I see no reason for
> it to change provided owners of NeXT software who decide
> to move to an Intel based machine will be able to upgrade
> their software for a nominal cost. Does anyone know what
> the story is?

At this point, what I understand is that it'll be
$300-$500 for the base system.  Oh, you want networking?
Oh, you want multi-user?  Oh, you want X support?
Remember who the king of nickel-and-diming is...

Scott Byer                                   NeXTMail: byer@adobe.com
Adobe Systems Incorporated               These are *my* opinions, and  
1585 Charleston Road, P.O. Box 7900        do not necessarily reflect
Mountain View, CA 94039-7900             the opinions of my employer.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: swiet@whatever.cs.jhu.edu (Alexander Swietlicki)
Subject: Re: Those Jokers at Lighthouse......
Organization: Johns Hopkins Computer Science Department, Baltimore, MD
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1992 19:43:48 GMT

In article <1992Aug25.231232.188@digifix!uunet.ca> sanguish@digifix.com writes:
>
>	Yeah, we got a Concurrence flier not too long ago with the "No Pain,
> No Pain" slogan on the back.  My wife got a fantastic paper-cut while
> opening the envelope.
>
>- Scott Anguish -

	With a name like that, is anything less to be expected?  :) :) :)



Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: spagiola@frinext.stanford.edu (Stefano Pagiola)
Subject: Re: Stability of Next as a company
Reply-To: spagiola@frinext.stanford.edu
Organization: DSO, Stanford University
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 92 20:18:31 GMT

Don McGregor writes
>  Walk-in retail really isn't NeXT's market anyway.  They do
> sales to big corporations that have a need for machines that
> can be networked into big groups and easily programmed.
> There are a bunch of students around that buy them, but they're
> getting them from bookstores at edu discount.
> 
> A reseller really needs to add value and create demand, not just
> fill walk-in orders.  Prominent display isn't going to get them a
> lot of sales (though it can't hurt).

I'd think that if a couple of NeXTStations was sitting next to a  
couple of 486s at one of those computer superstores where people go  
in to check what the newest whiz-bang thing is, _and_ the salespeople  
new what they were doing (which has not generally been the case where  
NeXTs are concerned), retail might well be a happenning thing.
Of course, this couldn't do it by itself.  You'd need some more  
visibility in terms of coverage and advertising too.  But there's no  
better way to sell a NeXT than to put people in front of one.

--
-
Stefano Pagiola
Food Research Institute, Stanford University
spagiola@frinext.stanford.edu (NeXTMail encouraged)
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 10:37:26 EDT
From: <MKK2@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Open Letter: Don't get rid of UNIX
 <1992Sep2.124037.13464@ms.uky.edu>

It looks to me like people mean one of two very different things when they
whether neXT should "get rid of Unix," and I think the discussion will be
clearer if we keep them straight.

1.  Since using traditional command line Unix is hard for many people, NeXT
should devote resources to hiding it under NeXTstep user interfaces.  Examples
include the NeXT System Administration tools.  In brief, any time a user
goes to the Terminal for a shell is a failure of the GUI.

2.  Underlying Unix system calls are old fashioned and obsolete.  It should
be replaced with something more modern, such as OS/2, MSNT, or PICK 8-) 8-)

   I think (1) has some merit, but that (2) is ludicrous.  I see people here
arguing for (1), but other people hearing an argument in favor of (2)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: louie@sayshell.umd.edu (Louis A. Mamakos)
Subject: Re: Is BSD dead? (Sorry, Avie)
Organization: University of Maryland College Park
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 13:32:50 GMT

In article <1992Aug27.191534.4003@nic.umass.edu> a74k110@titan.ucc.umass.edu (Chris Lloyd) writes:

>What does it matter? NeXT is trying to move away from Unix to begin with.
>I think the phrase "Exorcise Unix from Mach" was used at one point and NeXT
>has been consistently replacing elements of Unix with their own stuff.

Well, if this is the case, then NeXT ought to tell their customers
what their strategy is so we can begin to look for another platform
*now* while we still have a chance to sell the machines before they go
out of business.  Take a survey of people that you know that bought
NeXT platforms, and see how many bought because they were a good (BSD)
UNIX platform *first*, with a whizzy application enviroment.  Everyone
that I know bought a NeXT because it was a UNIX platform.  The
competition is Sun, DEC, SGI, HP and not DOS platforms or MACs.  This
include the 75-odd machines that the University of Maryland bought to
upgrade its existing UNIX platforms.

If the stupid machine is not going to present a UNIX interface, then
it might as well be a $#^*( Macintosh.  NeXT continues to give the
excuse that they are a small company and can't do everything for
everybody.  If they chose to not reinvent quite so many wheels, when
they they could do a few more things that a few more people want.

louie
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: wisdom@geom.umn.edu
Subject: Re: Release 3.0 is shipping, as of Aug 24th. (?)
Organization: University of Minnesota
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1992 01:39:39 GMT

In article <1992Aug29.131737.16748@ifi.unizh.ch> lytras@avalon.physik.unizh.ch  
(Lytras Apostolos) writes:
> >I was told that it started 'shipping' on Monday, August 28th, and to expect
> >my copy within a couple of weeks.
>     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> Are you sure about this? I wonder which year they meant ;-). This year, the
> 28th of August is not a monday, I think (writing this on Saturday, Aug 29).
> You probably meant Monday, September 28, I guess...
The subject line says August 24th, which is a monday. He probably meant this.

-Scott Wisdom
wisdom@geom.umn.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: messina@netcom.com (Tony Porczyk)
Subject: Internet access services (was: Re: NeXt vs Apple)
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 92 13:52:44 GMT
Organization: Messina Software

rolfe@ldp.com (Rolfe Tessem) writes:

>In article <ma-n4dl.howard@netcom.com> howard@netcom.com (Howard Berkey)  
>writes:
>> In article <714522019snx@w3vh.UUCP> rolfe@w3vh.UUCP (Rolfe Tessem) writes:
>> >maurices@spock.dis.cccd.edu writes in article  
><BtAtz9.Asn@spock.dis.cccd.edu>:
>> >[lots of stuff deleted]
>>>(Much NeXT-Mac debate deleted)

>But what do you get for $20?  Is this a dial-up SLIP connection with full  
>Internet access, or do you just get an account on a netcom machine?

Full Internet access.  Portal Communications in Cupertino offers a
similar deal, I believe. 

t.
From: unregistered@newcastle.ac.uk (Scott A. McIntyre)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Release 3.0 is shipping, as of Aug 24th. (?)
Date: 4 Sep 92 10:36:16 GMT
Reply-To: S.A.McIntyre@durham.ac.uk
Organization: Synapse Computer Consultants
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4

sheep@tankgirl (Sheep T. Iconoclast) writes:
: Hi just out of intrest does anyone know when NS 3.0 will be 
: relased in Europe ? 
: 
: Sheep T. 

3.0 is shipping in limited quantities in the UK, and therefore 
most likely around Europe as well.  I know of a few sites that have
it installed as of this week, and will be expecting more next week...

Mind you, I don't have it yet....

Soon.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: waltrip@capd.jhuapl.edu
Subject: Re: NextStep 486 and misc. (was Re: Stability of Next...)
Organization: CAPVAX, JHU/APL
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 21:48:14 GMT

In article <1972@ltb.ltb.bso.nl>, wierda@ltb.ltb.bso.nl (Gerben Wierda) writes:
	[...material deleted...]
> Boill Gates was in The Netherlands a couple of months ago. He claimed /NT
> would be ``Unix-compatible''. 
	It supports the POSIX API.  It comes with tcp/ip.  It's not UNIX
	but there may be a fair degree of source code compatibility and a
	reasonable amount of interoperability.  Probably enough to get
	Bill off the hook.
	[...]

c.f.waltrip

Internet:	<waltrip@capsrv.jhuapl.edu>

Opinions expressed are my own.
From: isbell@cats.ucsc.edu (Art Isbell)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NextStep 486 and misc. (was Re: Stability of Next...)
Date: 1 Sep 92 20:26:45 GMT
Organization: Cubic Solutions - NeXT software development and consulting
NNTP-Posting-Host: am.ucsc.edu


In article <1992Sep1.155156.4330@sinix.UUCP> dhg@sinix.UUCP (David Griffith) writes:
>In article <1992Aug25.170813.21133@adobe.com> byer@adobe.com (Scott Byer) writes:
>>
>>At this point, what I understand is that it'll be
>>$300-$500 for the base system.  Oh, you want networking?
>>Oh, you want multi-user?  Oh, you want X support?
>>Remember who the king of nickel-and-diming is...
>>
>
>But at least that allows users who don't require networking, multi-user,
>bells and whistles to buy a cheap entry level system. Why should users
>be forced to pay a high price for the full works? This is an argument that
>has been used many times to support NeXT's relatively high pricing - "sure
>it may be expensive, but it's still excellent value because you get all
>this other stuff for free". It doesn't wash. Imagine if a car manafacturer 
>took that line and tried to compete against similar models but would only 
>sell you the top of the range model with all the extras...

Japanese auto makers adopted a similar approach when they started penetrating
the US auto market.  US manufacturers offered a base price that sounded good
but was for a really stripped model ("You want a heater?  That'll be $XXX.XX
extra." - no pricing in postings, right ?-) The Japanese offered packages of
common options and could produce cars with more options for less money partly
because they had to deal with far fewer combinations of options.

When the total 3.0 release retails for only $XXX.XX, the added cost of tracking
and installing many different packages just doesn't seem worthwhile.  Should
NeXT start offering a really expensive, but not universally-wanted, package,
then I'd encourage them to offer it as an option.

But as it stands, many other Unix vendors nickel-and-dime purchasers so that
the total cost of a usable workstation usually exceeds an equivalent NeXT
(whatever "equivalent" means).  I applaud NeXT's approach and encourage them to
continue in this direction.
-- 

Art Isbell                                                      Cubic Solutions
NeXT Registered Developer #745         NeXT software development and consulting
Email: isbell@cats.UCSC.EDU                                Voice: (408)335-1154
USmail: 95018-9442                                           Fax: (408)335-2515
From: jcollas@ictv.com (Juan Collas)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NextStep 486 and misc. (was Re: Stability of Next...)
Date: 1 Sep 92 18:39:33 GMT
Reply-To: jcollas@ictv.com
Organization: ICTV, Santa Clara, CA (408) 562-9200

In article <1992Sep1.155156.4330@sinix.UUCP> dhg@sinix.UUCP (David  
Griffith) writes:
> In article <1992Aug25.170813.21133@adobe.com> byer@adobe.com (Scott  
Byer) writes:
> >
>
> But at least that allows users who don't require networking, multi-user,
> bells and whistles to buy a cheap entry level system. Why should users
> be forced to pay a high price for the full works? This is an argument  
that
> has been used many times to support NeXT's relatively high pricing -  
"sure
> it may be expensive, but it's still excellent value because you get all
> this other stuff for free". It doesn't wash. Imagine if a car  
manafacturer 
> took that line and tried to compete against similar models but would  
only 
> sell you the top of the range model with all the extras...
> 
> Dave Griffiths

Gee, the old top-of-the-line-one-model-fits-all certainly worked for the  
Japanese car industry against the American automotive industry ...

--

	- Juan Collas, ICTV
From: jbone@splat.dell.com (Jeff Bone)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Open Letter: Don't get rid of UNIX
Date: 3 Sep 92 21:21:02 GMT
Organization: Dell Computer Co


DISCLAIMER:  This represents MY opinion ONLY, and is probably 180 degrees
from what my employer's position is!

KEYNOTE:  NT DOESN'T EXIST YET!  NT IS SINGLE-SOURCE!  NT IS JUST WRONG!


waltrip@capd.jhuapl.edu writes:
>
>       <...bunch of pro-NT drivel- er, stuff deleted...>
>
>	Well, for those who just like UNIX or who like or need UNIX utilities
>	or the UNIX API, NT has POSIX.  A core of UNIX utilities is included
>	in POSIX and with contributions from GNU and other sources, you can
>	expect a pretty good representation of what's already available on
>	various UNIX boxes.  Since NT has a microkernal architecture, a UNIX
>	server with the full suite of UNIX utilities might be brought along
>	as an extra cost option for those not satisfied by POSIX (which, after
>	all, represents a UNIX subset).  If it's that important, push for it.

You know, the thing that really chaps me is this implicit assumption the
WHOLE non-UNIX world has that NT is going to show up on the scene and UNIX
is going to disappear.  Point of fact:  NT is vapor, as yet.  Point of fact:
UNIX has been around, in one form or other for years, and been stable enough
to be the industry-standard high-end OS for several years.  *IF* NT ships
with useable functionality, IF it has the same elegance/functionality/
toolset that makes UNIX so popular, IF it is bugfree enough to be usable,
then PERHAPS it would be a reasonable competitor for UNIX. Why has UNIX
been around for so long?  'Cuz it has the RIGHT IDEA.  Will NT have the
Right Idea?  Dunno. 

BUT!

NT will compete with UNIX right out of the starting gate, JUST BECAUSE
IT HAS SCADS OF $$$ AND MICROSOFT BEHIND IT!  This SUCKS!  Developers
with integrity will port to NT IF IT'S A DECENT OS, *not* just because
the WA Giant is shoving it down their throats.

>	truly huge market (given that Windows 3.1 is currently shipping in
>	excess of a million copies a month, it would seem reasonable to project
>	that NT will ship at least a million copies next year).

SO, bigger is better.  Might instead of right.  Typical, figures.  Baloney.
Give me a real OS or shoot me in the head!!!  VIVA UNIX!

>Opinions expressed are my own.

Yeah, me too. ;)


jb



--
-- Jeff Bone ------------------------------------------------------------
      "Imagination is more important than knowledge."  - A. Einstein
------------------------------------------------------- jbone@dell.com --
                                                                       --
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: neil@deepthought.uucp (Neil Greene)
Subject: Re: Release 3.0 is shipping, as of Aug 24th. (?)
Organization: ARCI, Inc.
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 01:25:20 GMT


I just ordered to more turbo systems and was told that they will have NS 3.0
installed when shipped.  If your system was shipped after August 26, then it
should have NS 3.0 installed.
-- 
Neil Greene 
Director, Computer Information Systems ARCI, Inc.
President, Kentucky NeXT User Group, Inc.
Email: deepthought!neil@ms.uky.edu [NeXTmail]
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy