HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com (Jim Mann)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: SF starter kit
Date: 5 Jan 93 16:00:03 GMT
Reply-To: jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com
Organization: Stratus Computer Inc, Marlboro MA
NNTP-Posting-Host: gondolin.pubs.stratus.com

In article <1ic97sINN5jt@agate.berkeley.edu> chuahl@ocf.berkeley.edu  
(Chua HakLien) writes:
> A friend of mine recently asked me for 7-10 books that would give a
> good overview of science-fiction. I haven't really read that much  
SF,
> but managed to comb through my memory to suggest these titles to  
her:-
> 
> _Dune_, by Frank Herbert. SF as an anthropology of the amazing. =)
> 
> _Foundation_, by Isaac Asimov. Had to include the good doctor  
somewhere...
> 
> _Neuromancer_, by William Gibson. As an intro to the cyberpunk  
genre.
> 
> _Stranger_In_A_Strange_Land_, by Robert Heinlein. 
> 
> _Flowers_For_Algernon_, by ??. SF as an exploration of the human  
psyche.

Daniel Keyes

> 
> I also suggested she pick up _The_Essential_Ellison_, and a Connie  
Willis
> anthology. As you can see, this isn't the best list, so to the more  
seasoned
> readers out there, could u help me out? What books would you  
suggest as a
> primer for those interested in SF? It's not a "The Best Of.." list,
> what she wants are a group of books that give an overview of what  
can be
> considered to be good SCIENCE fiction. 

Then why are you listing Stranger in a Strange Land? (Woops,
better not start that war again.)

Anyway, if you want a representative sample, I'd add the following
to your list:

Anthologies

The Science Fiction Hall of Fame vol. 1 (edited by Robert Silverberg)
Adventures in Time and Space (edited by Healy and McCommas)

Novels

Lord of Light  (Zelazny)
Dying Inside (Silverberg)
Hyperion and The Fall of Hyperion (Simmons)
Citizen of the Galaxy (Heinlein)
The Left Hand of Darkness and The Dispossessed (Le Guin)
Way Station (Simak)
The Big Time (Leiber)
The Man in the High Castle (Dick)

These, in addition to the ones you mention above, give a good
overview of much of SF.


> 
> After reading a few of the books I reccomended, ( she was very  
impressed by
> _Dune_, but staggered through _Neuromancer_ ) she asked me about  
the various
> categories in SF, and I told her it was impossible to classify them  
into neat
> little groups, but in general, I said some possible categories were  
Military
> SF, Hard SF, Cyberpunk and Alternative Histories. She asked me for  
some more
> reccomendations, especially for books in the Military SF and  
Alternative 
> Histories category. However, my knowledge of those in the former is  
near to
> zero, and that of the latter almost as bad. So I could appreciate  
some help,
> as well in identifying other categories in SF I am sure I missed  
out.

For alternate histories, try:

The Man in the High Castle (Dick)
Pavane (Roberts)
Bring the Jubillee (Moore)

For military SF, try:

Soldier Ask Not (Dickson)
Naked to the Stars (Dickson)
The Forever War (Haldeman)
Starship Troopers (Heinlein)
Bill the Galactic Hero (Harrison -- comedy)


--
Jim Mann            
Stratus Computer   jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com  
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: ecl@cbnewsj.cb.att.com (Evelyn C. Leeper)
Subject: Re: ``The Gripping Hand'' is here!
Organization: AT&T
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 13:53:00 GMT

In article <C0EyE5.KL2@news.cso.uiuc.edu> trumpins@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu (Barbara Trumpinski) writes:
> barb "a bad niven pournelle collaboration is better than none" t.

To which I can only say:
	Not this one.

Evelyn C. Leeper  |  +1 908 957 2070  |  att!mtgzy!ecl or  ecl@mtgzy.att.com
--
"To make the point [that homosexuals hamper military effectiveness] I'd
say that you would have to sift through your military history till you
find an instance in which failure has been attributed to the presence
of homosexuals on the losing side.  I'm not aware of any such case in
the past 2500 years, but I'd be interested to hear what you find."
-Nathan Engle
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: solovay@netcom.com (Andrew Solovay)
Subject: Re: Who killed SF???
Organization: Castle Anthrax
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1993 02:37:48 GMT

In article <1993Jan7.191415.9908@news.uiowa.edu> williams@herky.cs.uiowa.edu (Kent Williams) writes:
>I go to book stores.  I go to the library, and only rarely do I find anything
>worth buying and reading.  What is all this crap that clogs the shelves???

Theodore Sturgeon once said, "Sure, 90% of science fiction is crap.
That's because 90% of everything is crap." This saying is several
decades old (anyone care to put a date on it?). In fact, "90% of
everything is crap" is known as Sturgeon's Law.

>It is sad.  I can actually remember being able to WAIT IN ANTICIPATION FOR THE
>NEXT Philip K Dick to come out.  Can any claim now to be waiting for anything
>that momentous?

I would sell myself on the streets for another Octavia Butler.
-- 
Andrew Solovay    

"I is not now, nor has I ever been, a Human Bein'!"
                ---Pogo Possum
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: brad@clarinet.com (Brad Templeton)
Subject: Re: Author Polls: QUESTION
Organization: ClariNet Communications Corp.
Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1993 20:52:13 GMT

People on USENET are notoriously non-participatory in polls and surveys.
Every time somebody posts a "survey for the whole net" or "If you read
this, please mail me" they will get back perhaps 50 responses from 100,000
readers -- all of whom can pretty much reply with the touch of a button.

To make the author polls work you should be able to take polls on any
author at any time.  If I just found out about it, I should be able to send
in an entry on all authors.  Or change my mind.
-- 
Brad Templeton, ClariNet Communications Corp. -- Sunnyvale, CA 408/296-0366
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: YANJUNA@YaleVM.YCC.Yale.Edu
Subject: Re: Capitol S.F.?
Organization: Yale University
Date: Thu, 07 Jan 93 15:28:44 EST

>
>In article <1993Jan7.025854.3115@csus.edu>, arthurc@sfsuvax1.sfsu.edu (Arthur Chandler) writes:
>>  Can anyone give me the names of fantasy or science fiction books set in
>> Washington, D.C.?
>
    I think _Winterlong_ by Elizabeth Hand takes place in DC (Post-disaster)
and presumably its sequel _Aestival Tide_ does too [though I haven't read it
yet].  Also, doesn't a part of _Logan's Run_ by Nolan and Johnson take place
in DC? [It's been a long time since I read this one.  I know the movie has
DC scenes, though.  On the other hand, it was a mediocre book, and the
only thing memorable about the movie was the miniskirts...]
 
   Junsok Yang
 
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: gmills@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca (MILLS G - CHEMICAL ENG.)
Subject: Dune the movie
Organization: University of Waterloo
Distribution: na
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 19:10:34 GMT

>From: wrr3118@tamsun.tamu.edu (Rick Russell)
>Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
>Subject: Dune the Movie, my $0.02.
>Date: 11 Jan 1993 00:20:11 -0600
>Organization: Texas A&M University, College Station, TX
>
>
>I know, for certain, that there are at least 2 versions of Dune in
>existence.  The first, the theatrical release, is well known. The
>second, a syndicated release made-for-television, was slightly longer
>than the theatrical release and had several new and different things
>about it. I will elaborate:
>
> - In the TV release, the 'fading head' which begins to explain the
>story ("Oh, I almost forgot..." Hahahaha!) is replaced by a narrated
>'storyboard' describing the Dune universe history, with short sections

[...]

> - In the TV release, there are many scenes which did not make it into
>the theatrical release. They are easily identified because the eyes of
>the Ibad (the blue on blue eyes) are *missing* from the new scenes.
>That effect must have been added in the final edit. The most important
>new scene is probably the Water of Life scene, where Paul takes the
>same substance the Bene Gesserit do.

[...]

I've also got a TV version on tape.  The fading head is included and so is the
water of life scene.  It was on a Toronto station in late '92.  

My comment is that I've seen this sort of thing before.  Both "Star Trek The
Motion Picture" and "Aliens" included scenes in the TV versions that were not
in the theatre versions.  That's why I always try to get them on tape.  

Particularly in Aliens, the TV version shows scenes with the robot sentry
guns that the marines set up in the corridor to the air plant.  These were left
out of the video rental (theatrical?) version.  Also there's a scene where
Ripley meets the slimeball (Carter?) in an arboureum on Gateway station after
she wakes up.

Any comments how this happens?  Guess we should move this to movies eh'?

Greg Mills
(no sig)
  


Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: nancy@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Nancy Lebovitz)
Subject: Re: 1992 in Review
Organization: UDel, School of Life & Health Sciences
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 05:08:57 GMT

In article <1993Jan5.001511.10724@organpipe.uug.arizona.edu> dave@cs.arizona.edu (Dave Schaumann) writes:
>In article <1993Jan4.210901.3166@psych.toronto.edu>, dsy@psych (Desiree Sy) writes:
>[...]
>>Salomon is (was?) the film critic for the Wall Street Journal.
>
>WSJ has a *film critic*?  I never would've guessed it...

I'm not sure if you're kidding, but not only does WSJ have a film critic, 
but they do occasional straight (and usually favorable) reviews of Star
Trek stuff. I find that the WSJ is more like a good daily magazine with
lots of articles about odd things and decent science reporting than (as
most people think) a technical business newspaper. The only drawbacks are
the lack of a comics page and a more conservative attitude than I like.

Nancy Lebovitz
calligraphic button catalogue available by email
nancy@genie.slhs.udel.edu

Yellow journalism is media ochre
From: ekho@cybernet.cse.fau.edu (amanda rothman)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Title of "Short-short" story collection?
Keywords: Asimov, 100 short-short stories
Date: 6 Jan 93 01:41:34 GMT
Organization: Cybernet BBS, Boca Raton, Florida

pciszek@nyx.cs.du.edu (Paul Ciszek) writes:

> I once saw a book edited by Asimov and someone else, titled something
> like "100 Great Science Fiction Short-Short Stories".  In order to find
> this book, it would help to know a) both the editors, and b) the exact
> wording of the title.  If you know this book, please reply.  Also, does
> anyone know if it is still in print?

  The book you are speaking of is titled "Microcosmic Tales", edited by 
Isaac Asimov, Martin H. Greenberg, and Joseph D. Olander.  And it says 
"100 _Wondrous_ Science Fiction Short-Short Stories".  ;)  A perfect
reason to buy it, as stories this short (1-5 pgs) are quite often well 
worth it, especially the ones I've found by Issac Asimov.  Enjoy!

          Yours in Time and Space,

                    Ekho
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: kasprj@operators.its.rpi.edu (Jim Kasprzak)
Subject: Re: Heinlein - Politically correct?
Reply-To: kasprj@rpi.edu
Organization: The Big Wedge 
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 18:33:03 GMT

In article <MATT.93Jan8095814@physics2.berkeley.edu>, matt@physics2.berkeley.edu (Matt Austern) writes:
|> In article <1993Jan8.143024.10511@ohm.york.ac.uk> rog (Roger Peppe) writes:
|> > >I am not aware of a single (positive) character in any of his books who
|> > >could not be accurately described as a WASP American. If they are not
|> > >WASP's then it is incidental.
|> > The main character in 'Starship Troopers' was certainly not white.
|> 
|> Correct; nor is he an American.
|> 
|> The point, however, is that he *behaves* like a 20th century WASP
|> American.  Heinlein, I believe, was making a deliberate point here,
|> but I'm not convinced that it's reasonable.  Is it realistic to
|> imagine that 20th century white American culture is so compelling that
|> every society in the world will adopt it?

 I'd say that the evidence today points even more strongly towards that
conclusion than it did in Heinlein's day.
------------------------------------------------------------------
     __  Live from Capitaland, heart of the Empire State...
 ___/  | Jim Kasprzak, computer operator @ RPI, Troy, NY, USA
/____ *|          he who refuses to do nonsense  
     \_|          is doomed to talk arithmetic.
      ====  e-mail: kasprj@rpi.edu or kasprzak@mts.rpi.edu
From: HADCRJAM@admin.uh.edu (MILLER, JIMMY A.)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Covenant/LotR parallels? (Was Re: Amber: )
Date: 9 Jan 1993 23:07:35 GMT
Organization: University of Houston Administrative Computing
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: uhad6.admin.uh.edu
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.20

In <1603@blue.cis.pitt.edu> seawasp@vm2.cis.pitt.edu writes:

> In article <1ilo8uINNn7v@menudo.uh.edu> HADCRJAM@admin.uh.edu (MILLER, JIMMY A.) writes:
> >In <1600@blue.cis.pitt.edu> seawasp@vm2.cis.pitt.edu writes:
> >> single piece of good fantasy since Tolkien. I felt that the Covenant
> >> Trilogies were original as hell, and that Mordant's Need was magnificent.
> >> (Both by S.R. Donaldson, but I don't like his latest...).
> 
> >  Well, there are painfully obvious parallells between Covenant and LOTR, but
> >Donaldson took a different direction via characterization.  I loved them too,
> >but anyway...
> 
> 	Parallels? Like, what? Offhand, I can only see:
> 	1) It's an epic. This is hardly a parallel, since tons of epics came
> before and after LotR.
> 	2) A central "thing" in the book is a Ring of Great Power. However,
> Rings of Power were hardly unique to Tolkien, and the manner of operation and
> nature of the Power were completely different.
> 	3) The central character who has the Ring is reluctant to set out
> on his quest. However, the nature of the character and his reasons for being
> reluctant were completely different.

  Well, to me it seemed obvious.  We had the ring, the good guys were in the 
West, the bad guys were in the East, the good guys had once been much stronger
than they were now, there was a group of horse-people (Ramen and Ranyhyn vs.
the Rohirrim --very different cultures though), we had a volcano play an import-
ant part in the story, plus the part you mentioned, etc.

  Please don't misunderstand me.  I loved _The Chronicles_, but there were 
plenty of common elements.  I think Donaldson was heavily inspired by Tolkiens
world -- there's just too much there for pure coincidence.  Mayhap he put in
those similar things in to highlight the other parts of his stories which were
very different.


semper fi,

Jammer Jim Miller 
Texas A&M University '89 and '91
********************************************************************************
* Speak for my employers?  They don't even know I exist!		       *
*"Become one with the Student Billing System. *BE* the Student Billing System."*
* "Power finds its way to those who take a stand.  Stand up, Ordinary Man."    *
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********************************************************************************
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: jhildebr@nyx.cs.du.edu (Jeff Hildebrand)
Subject: Re: KSRobinson _Red Mars_...  When?
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 93 18:37:36 GMT

In article <al.726337983@iris> al@iris.claremont.edu (ere i am, jh) writes:
>
>
>Did I get the color right?  I knew it was either red, green, or blue.
>Anyway, if you know when it is due to be released or have seen a copy,
>let me know.  Mr. Tor executive?

	Well it's from Bantam, not Tor. Anyway, it's out. (This one is _Red
Mars_ btw.) I bought it from an independent bookstore on the East Coast on
Wednesday just after they had put it on the shelves. So it may take a week
or so to get to all the bookstores. (Chain stores are slower about getting
new books on the shelves.)

	Finished the book last night. It's a generally strong book, although
I had few minor quibbles with it which place it lower in my opinions than
_Pacific Edge_, but then again that's true of almost every book. :) Look
for a review on rec.arts.sf.reviews soon. Short version is that it's good and
worth buying but it falls just short of being spectacular.

	Now the problem is that I'm going to have to wait a long time for
_Green Mars_. Oh well.

-Jeff
--
Jeff Hildebrand, The Shaggy TA		       	   hildebra@math.wisc.edu
"The following statement  is an editorial viewpoint  and does not reflect 
the views of WSRN-FM, its employees, or mutant drosophila" - Off the Cuff
"And a tenor I wouldn't give two fives for."       -       City of Angels
From: PHKAVENY@MACC.WISC.EDU (Philip E. Kaveny)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: We would Like some reviews to this list HOW
Date: 13 Jan 93 00:43:00 GMT

We would  like to post some reviews to this list how can that be done
From: dani@netcom.com (Dani Zweig)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Objectionable characters...? (was: Covenant/LotR parallels?)
Date: 13 Jan 93 01:47:09 GMT
Article-I.D.: netcom.1993Jan13.014709.20154
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)

djdaneh@PacBell.COM (Dan'l DanehyOakes):
>"*OBJECTIONABLE* *CHARACTERS*?"
>
>Now, I haven't read the "Gap" books & probably won't... But ...

>Widdwe boy doevn't wike being weminded that the wo'ld ivn't a pwetty happy
>pwafe, doev he? 

No, it doesn't seem as though you have read them.  I don't share SW's
reaction, but I think it a reasonable one:  Just because it may be
realistic -- or at least legitimate -- to populate the cast of a book
with human monsters doesn't mean that doing so will make for a book
that succeeds -- or can succeed -- in engaging the reader.

Donaldson's gone a fair bit beyond making the books 'downbeat'.  Some
readers may appreciate this, but there's no virtue in staying around
for it if you're one of the readers who doesn't.

-----
Dani Zweig
dani@netcom.com

   God helpe the man so wrapt in Errours endless traine  -- Edmund Spenser
From: steyn@cs.rochester.edu (Gavin Steyn)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Who killed SF???
Date: 7 Jan 93 21:40:50 GMT
Organization: University of Rochester

In article <1993Jan7.191415.9908@news.uiowa.edu> williams@herky.cs.uiowa.edu (Kent Williams) writes:
>I go to book stores.  I go to the library, and only rarely do I find anything
>worth buying and reading.  What is all this crap that clogs the shelves???

There's plenty of good sf out there; you just need to look.  Heck, there's
a whole publishing line that seems to pretty much only publish very good
sf (Bantam Spectra), and as many good authors writing as there have ever
been.  Greg Bear, Gene Wolfe, Paul Park, Elizabeth Hand, Richard Grant,
Dan Simmons, do I really need to keep going here?  And that's without even
looking at my bookshelf.

>It is sad.  I can actually remember being able to WAIT IN ANTICIPATION FOR THE
>NEXT Philip K Dick to come out.  Can any claim now to be waiting for anything
>that momentous?

Well, I've been waiting for the next Peater Beagle book for about 3 years now,
but I don't know if that counts.  

Gavin Steyn
steyn@cs.rochester.edu
"So he's had the lifelong ambition of reversing the polarity of the earth?"
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: markg@pdx820 (Mark Gonzales)
Subject: Re: Hugo Nominations (my suggestions)
Summary: China Mountain Zhang, A Million Open Doors
Organization: Intel Corp., Hillsboro, Oregon
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1993 00:02:44 GMT

My choices for best novel of the year:

China Mountain Zhang, Maureen F. McHugh (Tor, 1992)
 - a fine first novel. It postulates a future where only communist China
survived the crash caused by the US budget deficit. It deals with one
man's experiences as a gay engineer in New York, the Arctic and China.
As a bonus, it also includes a real-world application for virtual
reality/cyberspace, rather than the usual juvenile hacker wet dreams,
and it includes good descriptions of the experience of speaking and
thinking in Manderin.

Strangely enough, I haven't seen anyone mention this one on the net.
(Perhaps because the hero is gay?)


A Million Open Doors, John Barnes (Tor, 1992)
 - I've already posted a review of this one.

Mark
From: esr@snark.thyrsus.com (Eric S. Raymond)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: The Illuminatus trilogy
Date: 9 Jan 93 17:56:06 GMT
Distribution: world
Back-References: <1993Jan8.141454.23208@bnr.uk>
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8]

In <3458@nlsun1.oracle.nl> Robert Gasch wrote:
> If you're looking for a *much* better, more believable conspiracy
> theory, I suggest you read Focault's Pendelum by Umberto Eco. This
> book is wonderful and made me reflect in ways which TIT never even
> came close to.

Chacun a son gout, I suppose.  I liked _Name_Of_The_Rose_ a lot, but 
_Foucault's_Pendulum_ struck me as a rather weak knockoff of TIT.  In
some sense Eco may be the better writer, but Shea & Wilson are *much*
better psychopomps.
-- 
					Eric S. Raymond <esr@snark.thyrsus.com>
From: mgcbo@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu (Charles B. Owen)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Dune the movie
Date: 10 Jan 1993 15:27:45 -0600
Organization: Educational Computing Network
NNTP-Posting-Host: uxa.ecn.bgu.edu

In article <726674148.AA04271@tdkt.kksys.com> David.Dyer-bennet@f341.n1146.z1.tdkt.kksys.com (David Dyer-bennet) writes:
> DZ> 16. I was told that the director's cut of DUNE was seven hours long,
> DZ>    and did a much better job of portraying the novel.  Where can I
> DZ>    find it?
>
> DZ> As Jerry Boyajian
> DZ> (boyajian@ruby.enet.dec.com) explains (hopefully for the last
> DZ> time [but of course it wasn't]):
>
> DZ> There is *no* "director's cut" of DUNE of *any* length.  The existence
> DZ> of one is a complete myth.
>
There is a basis for discussions about a longer version of DUNE.  The
first is from an essay by Frank Herbert in Eye where he discusses the
existense of 5 hours of original footage that was then cut down to 1
hour.  He even lists major plot points that were excised.  The editorial
is very much a defense of the film along with an explanation for many of
its faults and is recommended reading.

There is another essay I have read, also by Frank Herbert himself, in
which I follows up this essay describing how the US release of the movie
was even more cut than he had been led to believe and that he considered
the cut (to 1.5 hours I think) to have been savage and damaging.  In
this essay he talked about editing the removed footage back in as a
mini-series, something he advokated.  

So, you can see that there may not be evidence for a "director's cut" of
the film, but there may exist and definately COULD exist a much longer,
more complete version.  In the process maybe some of the stupidities
could be cut.


-- 
| Charles B. Owen                            Internet: mgcbo@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu |
| Western Illinois University                            Phone: 309-837-4292 |
| 1002 E. Murray                                                             |
| Macomb, IL  61455                                                          |
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,rec.arts.sf.science,sci.physics,sci.skeptic
From: blanton@mksol.dseg.ti.com (John F Blanton)
Subject: Re: Davis Mechanics (was Re: John Woods Campbell)
Organization: Texas Instruments, Inc
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 16:28:08 GMT

Gravity goes at the speed of light.


John Blanton 
blanton@lobby.ti.coM
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written