HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jacobs@cs.utah.edu (Steven R Jacobs)
Subject: Re: Poker: bet-declare-bet??
In-reply-to: empcomm@empserv.Corp.Sun.COM's message of 12 Oct 92 19:59:03 GMT
Organization: University of Utah CS Dept
Date: 12 Oct 92 16:10:00

In article <ldjm87INNj3v@jethro.Corp.Sun.COM> empcomm@empserv.Corp.Sun.COM (Chet Anderson - Emp. Services) writes:

> When playing high-low poker, is it unusual to play
> bet-declare-bet?  

Unusual in what sense?  Split pot games are never played
with a declare in casinos (at least not in any casinos
I've played in), mostly to avoid arguments over who declared
which way etc.

I've never played bet-declare-bet, but heard of others who do.
I don't think this is a good rule unless you are playing a limit
game with a max. number of raises.

> My friends were playing that way last night, and a
> huge argument ensued, after a solo low-bettor made
> a extremely large raise. To some, it seemed unfair
> for him to be able to bet when he knows he's going
> to win.  Others argued that's just the way it goes. 

Depends on what goals your rules are designed to achieve.
This rule makes the game more luck oriented than skill
oriented.  On the other hand, even when playing bet-declare
-showdown there will be times when a player will know that
they can't lose even though there are other players declaring
the same, by virtue of holding the best possible hand.

I don't think there is any real "right" or "wrong" answer
to this, it is simply a matter of taste.  Many rules
fall into this category, such as how to handle the split
if someone goes both ways -- do you have to win both ways
in order to get a piece of the pot?  Is a tie counted as
a win or a loss?  In a "dealer's choice" game, I think it
is best to allow the dealer to choose, but also have a
"default" format to fall back on if the dealer forgets to
declare all of the parameters of the game.

> One suggestion was to just play bet-declare-showdown,
> but then it was argued that that's too boring...

Rules are supposed to keep the game flowing smoothly.
The rules themselves are generally not too important
as long as everyone understands them and more or less
agrees to follow them.  I'd suggest that any rule which
leads to (repeated?) arguments is a bad rule, simply
because it interferes with the flow of the game.

> Any ideas?

After the declare, split the pot before the last betting
round, and let high players go for the high half while
low players go for the low half.  Then the player who
has a sure thing can raise his brains out without
screwing over the other players.  This is a pain and
slows down the game, however.

Or, always declare both ways and raise like a madman
after the declare :-)
--
Steve Jacobs  ({bellcore,hplabs,uunet}!utah-cs!jacobs, jacobs@cs.utah.edu)
"Be afraid.  Be very afraid.  I have K-10 offsuit...."
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
From: rhoge1@esk.compserv.utas.edu.au ([Robert James Hoge])
Subject: Black jack "even" question:
Organization: University of Tasmania at Launceston
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 92 04:41:48 GMT

Hi all.
I have a question about playing black jack.
I have my own set for black jack; a table, 6 decks of cards, the
card holder and chips.  I am always the banker and we mainly play
for fun.  No illegal gambling of course.  Now I am uncertain of a
rule, which I hope some of you can help me with.

If I (the dealer) get 18, and an other player has 18, I know I have
to sit and pay up anyone who is closer to 21 than I am.  But, do I
pay the player with the same amount as me, or take his money, or
leave him his money?  There are too many arguments about this when
we play and I really need to clear this up.

I play in Australia, the state is Tasmania and the casino house rules
are the dealer must hit on 16, sit on 17, and pay black jack double. 
Insurance is 3 to 2.  There can be 7 players at one table plus any
number of external players.  That is all that I can think of, and
thanks in advance.

 
-- 
 _--_|\  Finland,  ______________________________________________________       /      \ America, / [Robert James Hoge]  rhoge1@esk.compserv.utas.edu.au \      \_.--._/  France, \______________________________________________________/      
      v <-------   UNIVERSITY OF TASMANIA, LAUNCESTON, A U S T R A L I A.        ---------------------------------------------------------------------------    / "Tasmania is so small, that we have a fraction for a zip code, really!"   \   
\ "I'm not finished" -Edward Scissorhands.  I am *the*  S M E G H E A D !   /    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------    No, I'm not married!  But believe me if I was, I'd rather have the $50,000!!
#################################################################################                           this section vacant                                #################################################################################
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
From: jk@apple.com (John Kullmann)
Subject: Re: Poker: bet-declare-bet??
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 21:29:06 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Apple

In article <ldjm87INNj3v@jethro.Corp.Sun.COM>, empcomm@empserv.Corp.Sun.COM (Chet Anderson - Emp. Services) writes:
> 
> 
> When playing high-low poker, is it unusual to play
> bet-declare-bet?  
> 
We play that the single lock can check or call but cannot raise. This assumes
that we are not so drunk etc that we forget there is another betting round
and people don't just showing their hands....

We also play that if you go both ways and lose *either* your hand is dead.
Against my better judgement, that means that even those hands you beat
are back in play.  I think that if your hand is beaten it should not be able
to get any of the pot.  If the both-way (pig) declarer is beaten one way
that's his/her problem, but your hand was beaten.  As I said, this is not
how we play.
From: mbuck@fibers (Michael D. Buck)
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
Subject: Re: How/Where to play DD in LV
Date: 8 Oct 92 13:26:22 EDT
Distribution: na
Organization: Allied Fibers, Petersburg VA

In article <1992Oct7.222848.17610@midway.uchicago.edu>, kolt@quads.uchicago.edu (Matt K/Gonzo) writes:
> For the following casinos, I know of DD games, but am unsure of rules:
> 
> Barbary Coast   Stardust   Slots-A-Fun  Silver City
> (I am curious about DAS)

Barbary Coast had (S17,DAS) in August.  I've heard others on rec.gambling
decry an absurd level of pit heat there.  I played there and didn't have
any heat at all, but then again, you might want to check out my other
recent post on my highly casino-threatening 1-3 spread at DD. :-)

The Stardust did not have DAS in August.  I don't know if either Silver City or
Slots-a-Fun have DD at all, but I know their SD games recently changed from
DOA to D10-D11, so I doubt they allow DAS.

> 
> For the following casinos, I don't know if DD is available at all (do tell
> if DAS is available):
> 
> Harrah's  Flamingo  Maxim  Bally's  Dunes  Trop  Hacienda O'Shea's

I played DD at Harrah's in August using $5 match-play chips.  (S17,DOA,No DAS)

Maxim *does* allow DAS at DD.  They are rumoured to have good penetration
as well, but I didn't see anything particularly good or bad about it in
August.  Anybody else have good or bad experiences here?  Seemed like a
nice place to play.

Dunes, I believe, is an all 6-deck house now.  Tropicana also went paranoid
a few months ago and eliminated their good SD game.  I doubt that any existing
DD game would have good rules there.  I thought it would be humorous
if the Tropicana adopted Atlantic City's Tropworld's ad campaign.  In
AC, Tropworld advertises a section of their casino as "Las Vegas by
the Sea".  Well, since the LV Tropicana is now one of the few LV
casinos to have gone to 8(!!)-deck shoe games, they could call
themselves "Atlantic City in the desert"!

Bally's SD had D10-D11, so I doubt their DD rules are favorable.

I played some $2 6-deck match-play at O'Sheas on this trip, too.  I believe
this is also an all 6-deck place.

Can't help you with Flamingo or Hacienda.  Ain't been there.

> 
> For the remaining casinos, I don't know if I care, but go ahead and post if
> you wish:
> 
> Imperial Palace  Sands (I hate their SD game)  Aladdin
> All Off Strip Properties

I've heard that the Aladdin has a DOA,DAS,LS(!!),H17 DD game available.
I couldn't find it in August, though.

As I mentioned in another post, Palace Station (west of strip on
Sahara Avenue) has a H17,DAS DD game, in which I *felt* I was getting
good penetration.  Might have just been 'cause I was winning, though.  :-)
Also might have been because I found a dealer who would let me keep
my match-play chips when I won a hand!  The food is good there, too.

BTW, what's the matter with the Sands SD game?  (Honest question.  I
haven't been there myself, so haven't tried it.)
________________________________________________________________________
Michael Buck                          |
UUCP: decwrl!twwells!fibers!mbuck     |
Internet:                             |
  twwells!fibers!mbuck@decwrl.dec.com |
From: roberts@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Raiders wipped Bills!)
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
Subject: Casino Equipment...
Date: 13 Oct 92 22:04:19 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Pennsylvania


Does anyone out there know of any places in the Philadelphia area
which will rent me inexpensive casino equipment for a night?  Thank
you very much in advance.  shawn

--
Shawn A. Roberts (roberts@eniac.seas.upenn.edu) | "...I was lined up
University of Pennsylvania CSE '93              |  for glory, but the
Dining Philosophers Computer Science Group VP   |  tickets sold out in
ACACIA International Fraternity Brother         |  advance..." -Neil Peart
From: goedde@ellipse.mps.ohio-state.edu (Chris Goedde)
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
Subject: Re: Poker: bet-declare-bet??
Date: 12 Oct 1992 19:14:35 -0400
Organization: Department of Mathematics, The Ohio State University
NNTP-Posting-Host: ellipse.mps.ohio-state.edu

>In article <ldjm87INNj3v@jethro.Corp.Sun.COM> empcomm@empserv.Corp.Sun.COM (Chet Anderson - Emp. Services) writes:
>
>> When playing high-low poker, is it unusual to play
>> bet-declare-bet?  

In article <JACOBS.92Oct12161000@cells.cs.utah.edu> jacobs@cs.utah.edu (Steven R Jacobs) writes:

>I've never played bet-declare-bet, but heard of others who do.
>I don't think this is a good rule unless you are playing a limit
>game with a max. number of raises.

I've played both, and I must say I despise bet-declare-bet.

>This rule makes the game more luck oriented than skill
>oriented.

I wouldn't say that.  It does place more of a premium on reading your
opponents.  Being able to predict the way others will declare can be
quite lucrative with these rules.

>> One suggestion was to just play bet-declare-showdown,
>> but then it was argued that that's too boring...

There's a very simple way to fix this.  Raise the stakes.  Why have a
meaningless and irritating betting round after the declare when you
can make the early rounds more interesting by raising the stakes?  I
played in a bet-declare-bet game for several years before I got so fed
up that I convinced people to double the stakes and eliminate that
last bet.  It makes for a much better game, IMO.

chris
goedde@shape.mps.ohio-state.edu
From: jstubblefield@ttsi.lonestar.org (Jay Stubblefield)
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
Subject: Re: Reno BJ Rules
Date: 8 Oct 92 21:11:29 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: st

In article <JACOBS.92Oct8092010@cells.cs.utah.edu> jacobs@cs.utah.edu (Steven R Jacobs) writes:
>In article <1992Oct8.144104.4120@cbnews.cb.att.com> ddn@cbnews.cb.att.com (david.d.nason) writes:
>
>> I'm going to Reno next week and have never been there before.
>> From the FAQ, and the couple of BJ books I have, it seems 
>> that "typical" Reno rules are single deck, H17, D10, and  
>> no Doubling on Soft Hands.  Is this true?
>
>Yes.
>
>> What about DAS/RSA/ESR/LSR?
>
>You can find DOA if you look for it, maybe DAS on double deck
>or shoe games.  RSA and LSR are pretty rare, ESR is nonexistent.
>
>If you can find a single deck game that allows doubling on any
>first two cards, that is about as good as you'll find.  The
>other rules aren't all that valuable, especially if you have
>to give up DOA to get them.
>--
>Steve Jacobs  ({bellcore,hplabs,uunet}!utah-cs!jacobs, jacobs@cs.utah.edu)
>"Be afraid.  Be very afraid.  I have K-10 offsuit...."

When I was there this summer, I think the Flamigo Hilton had DOA, and
possibly the Clarion.


-- 
Jay Stubblefield                Tandem Telecommunication Systems, Inc.
SR S/W Engineer                 1255 W. 15th Street
Phone: 214-516-6259             Plano, Texas 75075
Fax: 214-516-6805		E-Mail: jstubblefield@ttsi.lonestar.org
From: stank@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (Stan Krieger)
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
Subject: Re: going to ac part 2
Date: 16 Oct 92 13:51:17 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Summit NJ


>Next question .......
>
>Who (if anybody) has

>a. the best buffet for least money, or a compromise of the two

        Trump's Castle has a buffet for $3.89; Merv's Resorts
        for $4.99.  All the other dinner buffets are $10+
        (although if you have a coupon for a Trump Plaza
        fun book, there'll probably be a 2:1 or 1/2 price off
        1 coupon in there; regular price is $13.95).

        Both Trump's Castle and Resorts require pre-paid
        reservations for the buffet.  If you walk in at
        prime dinner time, the wait could be 3 hours.

>b. the best buffet in the middle of the night.

        I'm a day tripper; can't help you there.
>
>Next question.
>I have a bally's comp card, but it really doesn't do me much good if I'm
>only playing at the five dollar tables, even for hours at a time, does it?

        Here's a "can they afford it" question.  Harrah's is
        advertising that if you play 2 hours at a table, they'll
        give you a meal comp equal to at least the table minimum.
        I mean, that's really big of them; play 2 hours at a $10
        table, and they give you a $10 food credit, good at any
        of their overpriced restaurants.

>If I go to another casino, should I even bother to get their card?  I've
>seen the FAQ, but is there any advantage to having the card while playing
>low tables?

        Sometimes they'll send new customers introductory offers.

        Also, even though I play very little, last summer, because
        I had cards, I got the following offers in the mail-

        1.  2:1 coupon for Trump's Castle buffet, plus 2 free
            boat rides.

        2.  2 free show tickets for Merv's revue show, which I
            didn't use.

        3.  A 2:1 coupon for Bobby Rydell's show at TropWorld
            (one ticket was $9.95).

>Thanks tons.
>PS please no flames for asking about the buffets, it really is kinda
>necesary for my trip!

        They're still better than McDonalds.
--
-- 
Stan Krieger                 All opinions, advice, or suggestions, even
UNIX System Laboratories     if related to my employment, are my own.
Summit, NJ
smk@usl.com
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
From: gribble@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (steve gribble)
Subject: Re: Poker: bet-declare-bet??
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1992 21:53:07 GMT

We have ALWAYS played bet-declare-bet--and the whole
idea is to be going solo one-way so you have the
mortal lock.  whoever said poker was fair???

if in a holdem game you know you have the lock, is it
not fair to raise as much as possible?


steve
From: msc9315@geovax.ed.ac.uk
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
Subject: UK Horseracing
Date: 14 Oct 92 20:02:42 GMT
Organization: University of Edinburgh, Geography Department.


 OK, UK horse racing.
 
 Money can be made, but info. is sooo expensive.
 Can anyone oblige with suggestions/info. on UK tipsters (0891/Personal/
 Whatever)?
 
 In return, I can provide major league news on FINEFORM, and even others ...
 And maybe more than news .....
 
 NB For all American readers, Arazi is returning, and returning in some style.
 
    " The journey is the destination!"
 
 
    Jon Munro Lewis
From: yasu@ll.mit.edu (Alan Yasutovich)
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
Subject: Video Poker People!!!!!!!
Keywords: $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Date: 14 Oct 92 12:11:26 GMT
Organization: MIT Lincoln Laboratory



	OK,

	Here is a list of people I'll be mailing the video
	poker system.  I left something at home, so it won't
	be in the mail today, but by the weekend.

	The names are:

	Mike Markiw
	Lance Ogasawara
	John Cobarruvias
	Ramesh Venkataraman
	Ron Birnbaum
	Dave Mackmiller
	Dennis Jeske

	Kennedy Lemke did not send me a mailing address.

	About Robert Hoge in Finland, the system has "charts"
	for Las Vegas, and Atlantic city only.  I'm not sure it
	would be pertinant.


	When you receive it please send me email to

	1) let me know you received it.
	2) let me know what you think of it.
	3) let me know when your going to the casino next.

	Then you can let me know how it works. In addition to knowing
	if you win (lose) I'm interested in the rate of win/loss.

	Good luck.
-- 
	Alan Yasutovich
	"inquiring  (and nosey) minds WANT TO KNOW!!!"
	I can remember when "safe sex" meant having a padded headboard!!
	Tick Tock.....Tick Tock......Tick Tock .....Tick Tock......
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
From: jacobs@cs.utah.edu (Steven R Jacobs)
Subject: Re: Fast Action Hold Em
In-reply-to: jacob@ocf.berkeley.edu's message of 16 Oct 1992 11:29:20 GMT
Organization: University of Utah CS Dept
Date: 16 Oct 92 10:02:26

In article <1bm92gINNp10@agate.berkeley.edu> jacob@ocf.berkeley.edu (Jacob Jin) writes:

> Forgive me Father, for I have sinned. I played Fast Action Hold
> Em. Even worse, I liked it. But the worst sin of all, is
> that I began to think it could be beaten.

Time for rec.gambling.humor....

> (Does anyone have any ideas on this and/or have exact rules on
> how the dealer plays his hand? The dealers I played with
> were not 100% sure, and I often persuaded them to play
> what I felt were worse hands because they were running
> or suited.)

Assuming you play optimal, this is an even game against the dealer
except for three things:

   1)  5% vig.
   2)  5:1 payoff for a "natural" (4-kind dealt to you)
   3)  You can play your discards if you want to.

The 5:1 payoff for naturals happens only once in about 1359 hands,
which increase your expected return by only 0.37%.  This leaves
the house with a 4.63% edge that you must overcome by playing your
discards.  Good luck.

> My son, this is a grave matter. As repentance, you must
> masturbate three times daily.

You were already doing that...




--
Steve Jacobs  ({bellcore,hplabs,uunet}!utah-cs!jacobs, jacobs@cs.utah.edu)
"Be afraid.  Be very afraid.  I have K-10 offsuit...."
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
From: jacobs@cs.utah.edu (Steven R Jacobs)
Subject: Re: Payoffs in video poker
In-reply-to: napier@cs.ucsd.edu's message of 15 Oct 92 15:56:56 GMT
Organization: University of Utah CS Dept
Date: 16 Oct 92 10:45:06

In article <2197@deadmin.ucsd.edu> napier@cs.ucsd.edu (Jim Napier) writes:
>
> Is there any reason to believe that video poker machines pay off less at
> some times than others (other than the ebb and flow of statistics based on
> how the cards would normally come up if you were dealing them yourself)?

I believe that VP machines play a "fair" game, dealt from a random deck
that includes all 52 cards.  I have no proof.

> The reason I ask is that when I was in Laughlin last week I played quite
> a bit of video poker for the first time and I noticed that when the casino
> was very active and the machines were getting a lot of use they seemed to
> be paying off less. But the times I played on less crowded days like on
> the weekdays or early in the morning I had no trouble winning between $20
> and $40 in a short stretch each time.

I suspect this is coincidence combined with the human tendency to find
patterns where none exist.

> I don't know much about the workings
> of slots in casinos but the real slots are fixed to pay off only a certain
> percentage overall so you'd expect to see less payoffs when they've been
> played heavily.

Nope.  The machines are supposed to have the same probability of payoff
for each independent trial.  I think (but cannot prove) that it is illegal
for casinos to use machines that alter their payoff rates between plays.

>... But I thought these poker machines paid off realistically
> based on the random distribution of cards dealt. That is to say they don't
> necessarily *pay off* the true odds on getting a particular hand. But the
> odds of getting a hand are the same as if you were dealing the cards 
> yourself. So for example the machines aren't fixed to deal a smaller 
> percentage of full houses then you'd statistically expect to see dealt.

I assume that this is how the machines work.  Opposing views by persons
with insider information are welcome.

> If so, then was what I observed just a coinidence or were there some other
> factors involved? Thanks.

I suspect it was coincidence.
--
Steve Jacobs  ({bellcore,hplabs,uunet}!utah-cs!jacobs, jacobs@cs.utah.edu)
"Be afraid.  Be very afraid.  I have K-10 offsuit...."
From: yasu@ll.mit.edu (Alan Yasutovich)
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
Subject: Re: People interested in video poker.
Date: 14 Oct 92 11:32:08 GMT
Organization: MIT Lincoln Laboratory

In article <1992Oct13.191103.22476@kronos.arc.nasa.gov> hall@kronos.arc.nasa.gov (Michael Hall) writes:
>In article <1992Oct13.131242.8863@ll.mit.edu> yasu@ll.mit.edu (Alan Yasutovich) writes:
>>	I have received about 5 responses to my post.
>[munch]
>>	My terms are simply that you play the system for probly at
>>	least an hour, and let me know your profit/loss.
>
>Of course, the results of 5 hours will be a totally statistically significant.
>(Not!)
>
>>	Or at least if you get it, and think it's rediculous (which
>>	it isn't) then let me know.  But I would think that anything
>>	is worth a 1 hr try.
>
>Uh, you *do* realize that the FAQ itself has a video poker "system",
>proven via mathematics/combinatorial analysis to work, thanks to
>Steve Jacobs...
>
>In what way does this system you purchased differ from Steve Jacobs'?  Or
>from Stanford Wong's?  Who published this system?  For what poker machines
>is your system designed for?
>
>-- 
>Michael Hall            \
>NASA Ames Research Center\  "Tropicana... Atlantic City in the desert"
>hall@ptolemy.arc.nasa.gov \  - ad slogan proposed by Michael Buck
>

	I find it very interesting that I made a generic offer and
	all you choose to do is criticize me and talk shit.

	If you had responded and received a copy of it, then I
	suppose you could judge for yourself.  But it'll be a
	cold day in hell before I spend any more time than to
	write this note, to help an arrogant bastard like you.

	I made no claims, and have asked for no money.

	What's your problem?

-- 
	Alan Yasutovich
	"inquiring  (and nosey) minds WANT TO KNOW!!!"
	I can remember when "safe sex" meant having a padded headboard!!
	Tick Tock.....Tick Tock......Tick Tock .....Tick Tock......
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
From: kolt@quads.uchicago.edu (Matt K/Gonzo)
Subject: Re: How/Where to play DD in LV
Summary: Thanks...now more specifics
Keywords: blurp
Reply-To: kolt@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Distribution: na
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 22:28:48 GMT

For the following casinos, I know of DD games, but am unsure of rules:

Barbary Coast   Stardust   Slots-A-Fun  Silver City
(I am curious about DAS)

For the following casinos, I don't know if DD is available at all (do tell
if DAS is available):

Harrah's  Flamingo  Maxim  Bally's  Dunes  Trop  Hacienda O'Shea's

For the remaining casinos, I don't know if I care, but go ahead and post if
you wish:

Imperial Palace  Sands (I hate their SD game)  Aladdin
All Off Strip Properties

Thanks if you have any help...I was in the process of deciding
whether to spend most of my next trip almost totally DT.

Mattman, the short counter. :-)
-- 
Matt Koltnow   B0 t-- w- c g+ k s+ e r- p   "Truth is not kind; and you
Email: kolt@midway.uchicago.edu              say neither am I." --Toad the    
Ntalk: kolt@ellis.uchicago.edu (or @quads)   Wet Sprocket      
Boycott the IP... R.I.P. MSS...Hugs to all...Standard Disclaimers Apply...