From: ksm@abb-sc.abb-sc.com (Ashley)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Reconciling BDSM and Pagan Beliefs
Summary: Liberating bondage, pain, transformation and rebirth.
Date: 5 Nov 92 01:56:47 GMT
Organization: Kaos Laboratories


	I've been ignoring this string, but look, I got drawn in anyway. 
*sigh* Oh well, here's my .02 worth........


In article <8B1PTB3w165w@ailanth.UUCP>, ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com (Ailsa N.T. Murphy) writes...
>GC.GGG@forsythe.stanford.edu (Gwyn Gordon) writes:
> 
>> Another problem I have with sado-masochism/bondage/etc. is that it
>> smacks (ha ha) just a little too much of pornography in its most
>> damaging form. The myths that women love powerlessness, love pain,
>> say no but mean yes, and enjoy rape, are just too powerful and too
>> pervasive in this culture for me to enjoy playing that role. I feel
>> that it would be reinforcing that stereotype yet again -- and
>> playing that game, even in private, has meaning.
>>
>but, but, but, what about those of us who are tops?  i mean, being
>butch and being a top are just differences in degree, when you come
>right down to it...  you give the lady what she wants, as
>enthusiastically and throughly as possible (or gentleman, if you are a
>BI butch *grin*), and if s/he wants to be tied up to get it, okfine...
>B)

	The whole idea behind BDSM sex play is to have fun, and sometimes there 
are things that you can do to someone that they could NOT SIT STILL for if 
they where not restrained. So out come the ropes/fur-lined manacles, what 
have you and then you get to work. That is an issue of trust for the bound 
person. Do they trust their partner enough to be helpless and completely 
surrender to the pleasure their partner inflicts upon them? And the unbound 
person too. Do they feel comfortable with that level of intamacy? How does 
this gift of trust affect them? This kind of thing has nothing to do with 
exploitation. 

	The psychological implications are strong too. I had an experience 
with someone who could not relax and enjoy sex due to guilt issues. The way 
this was resolved was bondage and physical domination. Once this person had 
no control over themselves and felt that there was no way for them to 
control the situation, they where able to relax and enjoy it. "If it's 
beyond my control, I cannot be guilty of my own sexuality". Nancy Friday 
explored this theme in her first two books about women's sexual fantasies. 
According to her studies, the "rape fantasy" prevades a lot of women and a 
few men of the older generation. I don't like to call this a "rape fantasy" 
because of the implications of the term "rape" (we all know no one actually 
likes being raped), but it IS being taken by force and NOT being able to say no 
that takes the responsibility for their own sexuality away from these women 
and men and frees them from the societal chains that hold them back 
from sexual fulfillment. BDSM provides a release from the guilt-chains and 
may rehabilitate and give sexuality back to someone who otherwise 
would not be able to recover it from their sexual guilt. It should be noted 
that this fantasy is MUCH LESS COMMON in women sexually awakened after the 
sexual revolution and the birth of modern feminism. I never found out 
if my friend ever managed to enjoy sex without it as much as with, so I ask: 
Does anyone have any recovery stories to tell involving this problem? 

			- -  *  - -

	I'm actually suprised not to see more pagans defending the pain 
aspects of BDSM. How about the shamanic rituals that many of us have 
undergone? Hanging from the roof of the sweat-house lodge or a tree on 
flesh-hooks? Or being buried alive, held underwater, tied to a tree and 
left for the night? All these things are common in tribal and shamanic 
magick and can be very painful, they involve a great deal of trust and 
submission and in the darkest hour, terror, fear and agony. End result? 
Rebirth. Transformation. Renewal. Power. The journey is worth it to the 
voyager. Is it not the same in BDSM?

	A lot of BDSM seems to play with is the narrow line that divides 
pain and pleasure and sometimes trance. If you have undergone a physical 
testing or initiation, you can imagine the state that these people are in 
when sex occurs. Think of that. The mental space one would be in after total 
submission to another person and a good flogging. The space you would be in 
after 3 days of fasting and a rigorous and physically testing ritual. Same 
thing. Intense!

> 
>> Whew! Let's all lighten up and go have an orgy. (Just kidding.
>> Really)
>>
>oh bummer...  a post-election celebratory orgy would be lovely!
> 
>                                                  -ailsa
> 
	Hmmm. An early Beltane night for Clinton and Barbara and Diane anyone? 
"Every act of love and pleasure....." I wonder what our elected officials 
would think of THESE kind of family values!!! hee-heee-hee!!!!



			- Ashley 
Newsgroups: alt.pagan