From: bcoleman@hayes.com (Bill Coleman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: IBM Funny
Date: 8 Oct 92 18:59:17 EDT
Organization: Hayes Microcomputer Products, Norcross, GA

In article <TOMSTER.92Oct6230420@bigwpi.WPI.EDU>, tomster@bigwpi.WPI.EDU (Thomas Richard Dibble) writes:
> 
> Bill, dear, I ask you again:  "WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN CLOSE, QUIT, AND
> EXIT ???!!!???

This is the first time I've seen such a question.

> THERE IS NONE.

Not true. There is a distinction, at least as far as computer applications are
concerned. For the Mac, Close means to close the document, while Quit means
to Quit the application. There is no Exit.

> THEY ARE (listen closely now) S-Y-N-O-N-Y-M-S.  THEY MEAN THEY SAME THING TO
> ALL OF THE ENGLISH-SPEAKING WORLD.

OK, I'm looking in my dictionary:

Close (vb) -- synonyms include: END, CONCLUDE, FINISH, COMPLETE, TERMINATE

Exit (vt) -- synonyms include DEPART, LEAVE

Quit (vb) -- synomyms include DEPART, LEAVE

Webster doesn't agree with you. Exit and Quit appear to be synonyms. Close
is not.

Of course, you failed to get my point entirely. When dealing with sortcuts,
it is imperitive that you select the appropriate verb in order to recall
the sortcut. If you are thinking "Quit" and the program has "Exit", pressing
Command-Q won't do you any good. 

Hence the need for standard terminology for standard verbs. Windows doesn't
have this.

> If you are saying that most users don't understand the meaning of 'close'
> or 'exit' I'd have to say you are quite disillusioned.

I wasn't saying that.

>    > What do they do on the Mac mouse? Oh, they don't have physical buttons there,
> 
>    Right. So there's less confusion about what button to press.
> 
> Again.  If you want to pretend you have only one button, *use* only the left
> button.  The other button(s) are not necessary.  

So why have them? They introduce confusion. Confusion slows the user down.
QED. 

>    > Both the Mac and Windows use a single-button mouse model with modifiers
>    > left up to the application.
> 
>    Except in the Mac environment, the modifiers are defined. See the Apple HIG.
> 
> See the Microsoft CUA.  Left-button mousing is very well defined.

According to the Microsoft Windows Interface Application Design Guide, Page 9,

"Button 2. This buttons is used to bring up context specific actions and 
 options."

Guess what? Button 2 is only mentioned in the chapter on pen operations,
which define how the user creates button 2 with the pen.

So much for "well defined."

>    > Closer ties between keyboard and mouse actions.
> 
>    I don't see what you mean here. Perhaps you could provide an example.
> 
> Well, lets start with the menus.  Alt-<E> is the Edit menu.  All the items
> within the menu have an Alt-<> equivalent.  By selecting these with your
> mouse you start learing the structure of the menus.  

I have three problems with these shortcuts.

1) they are modal. When you press ALT or ALT-E, you are now in a mode. Modes
   are to be avoided. Invisible modes are to be shunned. Pressing ALT by
   itself is nearly invisible.

2) these shortcuts don't work in all cases. Bring up a dialog and you can no
   longer use ALT-EP for paste. You have to use the real shortcut (which is
   either Shift-Ins or Ctrl-V, depending)

3) They are too long. If I want to open a file, I have to remember, "yeah"
   that's under the "File" menu. This requires more recall, not to mention
   more keystrokes.

> You are constantly exposed to the keyboard shortcuts for *every* menu item, 

Except they don't work in all cases.

> not just the select few the programmer thought you might actually use 
> frequently.

The programmer should do user testing to DETERMINE which of the non-standard
items users use frequently. Of course, standard items should have standard
shortcuts. You get those right out of the Human Interface Guidelines.

> Secondly, everything you can do with the mouse you can do with the keyboard.

Some Windows applications wantonly violate this rule. More inconsistancy.

>    >> Wrong. You bring up a dialog window, and ALT <ET>, ALT <EC> and ALT <EP>
>    >> (Cut, Copy, and Paste, respectively) won't work.
>    > 
>    > Good point.
> 
>    Ha! Gotcha.
> 
> I still don't get this.  When do you need the menus while within a dialog box?

To paste in the name of a file. I used this perhaps 50 times today. On Windows.
Yuck.

>    > I don't know. I'm not discussing the applications. I'm discussing the user
>    > interface.
> 
>    Applications are very much part of the user interface.
> 
> Except many are written by different programmers, few come with the interface
> (meaning not everyone has the same ones), and they all do at least *some*thing
> different than all the others.

On the Mac, there is an amazing about of consistancy in the interface. 

>    Acutally, it's worse. MS Changed the standards. Now they are saying to use
>    Control-X, Control-C and Control-V. I wonder where they got the idea for
>    these?
> 
> Macintosh, if I read the other posts correctly.

Yup. How "innovative."

>    You're trying to weasel out.
> 
> Well, you change operating systems and see how well you remember the Mac's
> cut & paste shortcuts four years from now.

He's still trying to weasel out.

-- 
Bill Coleman, AA4LR                ! CIS: 76067,2327    AppleLink: D1958
Principal Software Engineer        ! Packet Radio: AA4LR @ W4QO
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Disclaimer: "My employer doesn't pay me to have opinions."
Quote: "The same light shines on vineyards that makes deserts." -Steve Hackett.

Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy