From: nobby@milton.u.washington.edu (Vitaly Shmatikov)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Israel and the diaspora
Date: 19 Nov 92 02:15:31 GMT
Article-I.D.: u.1992Nov19.021531.17212
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle

In article <92323.1846492893684@QUCDN.QueensU.CA> andy <2893684@QUCDN.QueensU.CA> writes:
>In article <1992Nov18.205954.26329@u.washington.edu>,
>nobby@milton.u.washington.edu (Vitaly Shmatikov) says:
>>

[... stuff deleted ...]

>>1990-91. The overwhelming majority of Soviet Jews bound for Israel
>>arrived there via Bucharest and - to a lesser extent - Warsaw,
>
>but no longer Vienna, the Romanian government provided no alternative
>destination for Russian Jews save Israel, they were not permitted
>to go to the West from Romania, Warsaw I dont know, but not Romania
>
>>Nicosia, et cetera. I agree that these routes were designed with an
>>implicit goal to prevent the emigrants from defecting in Vienna.
>>However, if one was dead set on going to America or elsewhere he
>>still could go to Vienna absolutely unhindered by Mossad agents and
>>then proceed to Ladispoli. This business was fully functional up
>>to late 1989 / early 1990 when INS wound up its facilites in Rome
>>and gradually transferred them to Moscow.
>>
>>Perhaps Israel felt uneasy about it. It's quite possible and I tend
>>to agree that this might be the case. But the talk about "coercion"
>>and "pressure" is totally inappropriate. IMO, there is a difference
>>between mild Zionist propaganda and actual use of force to make
>>people move to Israel.
>
>You concede though that the routes were designed with the explicit goal of
>preventing Jews from going elsewhere (defecting, your word, is an interesting
>choice of phrase) certainly this is somewhat coercive. I am not saying Israel
>is kidnapping Jews, forcing them to go to Israel against their will (well, not
>if you don't count Mordechai Vannunu, but that's a different story:) rather
>that Israel is being rather patronising and big brotherly in trying to close
>other options to Jews, both by lobbying the US to tighten quota restrictions
>and by designing routes which make it difficult for Jews to go anywhere but
>Israel. You have not commented on the first point but you have essentially
>conceded the second
>--andy
>

You missed my point. If you *wanted* to go to Israel you went to
Bucharest. If you did *not* want to then you could leave for
Vienna -> Italy -> ... It was one's personal choice which had
nothing to do whatsoever with Israeli policy in this regard.
People who were leaving for Romania were aware of their final 
destination. If it's me who decides where to go then there can 
be no talk about coercion, right?

As far as alleged Israeli pressure on the U.S. is concerned
I find the discussion pointless. I'll claim that there was no
such a thing, you'll respond that yes, Israeli lobby did
cause tightening of the U.S. immigration quotas and nobody
will be able to sustain his argument due to the lack of
evidence. So let's restrict our discussion to the realm of
facts which are readily available and convincingly show
that nobody has been ever forced to relocate to Israel against
his/her will. I find your appeal to the case of Mordechai Vanunu
lame. IMO, Mr. Vanunu is a criminal and should be treated as
such. If you disagree it's O.K. because, frankly speaking, I
couldn't care less about fugitive nuclear scientists. The problem
in question is Jewish emigration from the xSU and I would like
to reiterate that your accusations and claims against Israel
do not concur with the reality.

nobby@u.washington.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish