HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: bogstad@blaze.cs.jhu.edu (Bill Bogstad)
Subject: Re: RFD: misc.forsale.computers reorganization
Organization: Johns Hopkins Computer Science Department, Baltimore, MD
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 20:17:39 GMT

In article <1992Jul28.182453.4243@uunet.uu.net> mmm@qedqcd.rye.ny.us (Mike Miskulin) writes:
>I am formally proposing the split of misc.forsale.computers into a new
>hierarchy.  At a minimum the succeeding group(s) should be:
>	    
>	misc.forsale.computers.hardware
>	misc.forsale.computers.software
>
>At a maximum (for purposes of this RFD), a succession to:
>
>	misc.forsale.computers.hardware.ibm
>	misc.forsale.computers.hardware.apple	
>	misc.forsale.computers.hardware.other
>	
>	misc.forsale.computers.software.ibm
>	misc.forsale.computers.software.apple
>	misc.forsale.computers.software.other

	I am totally against breaking up this group based on the vendor.
Many pieces of hardware such as SCSI disks and tapes, modems, printers,
memory SIMMs etc. can be used with many vendors system.  I'm not even sure
that dividing into hardware vs. software as the main division is really
needed as my impression is that most of the stuff for sale is hardware.
(Old software tends to lose value even faster then hardware...)  My first
cut at suggestions would be:

m.f.c.systems  (MAYBE m.f.c.systems.ibm m.f.c.systems.apple m.f.c.systems.other)
m.f.c.software
m.f.c.disks
m.f.c.scsi
m.f.c.memory
m.f.c.misc

	Yes, there could some overlap here; but I think it won't be as bad
as with the original proposal.

					Bill Bogstad
From: rfisel@informix.com
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: misc.forsale.computers reorganization
Date: 29 Jul 92 00:11:15 GMT
Reply-To: rfisel@informix.com
Organization: Informix Software, Inc.

In article <1992Jul28.182453.4243@uunet.uu.net> mmm@qedqcd.rye.ny.us (Mike  
Miskulin) writes:
> I am formally proposing the split of misc.forsale.computers into a new
> hierarchy.  At a minimum the succeeding group(s) should be:
> 	    
> 	misc.forsale.computers.hardware
> 	misc.forsale.computers.software
> 
> At a maximum (for purposes of this RFD), a succession to:
> 
> 	misc.forsale.computers.hardware.ibm
> 	misc.forsale.computers.hardware.apple	
> 	misc.forsale.computers.hardware.other
> 	
> 	misc.forsale.computers.software.ibm
> 	misc.forsale.computers.software.apple
> 	misc.forsale.computers.software.other
> 
I would favor the "maximum" approach, simply because the variety of trade names  
and abbreviations for ibm equipment is too long and cumbersome for my  
mac-oriented kill file to handle effectively. 
--
Rick Fisel 
opinionated employee of opinionless
Informix Software
I prefer replies by email.
From: bill@glidden.UUCP (Bill Glidden)
Subject: Re: RFD: comp.unix.* reorganization
Newsgroups: news.groups
Date: 22 Jul 92 05:11:50 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Bill Glidden's Home, Tampa FL

peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) writes:
> >>Actually, I was going to suggest pulling comp.os.{minix,linux,coherent} into
> >>the comp.unix world, IF THAT'S OK WITH THE READERSHIP OF THOSE GROUPS. That'
>                        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Let's keep Coherent in its own group. I am not interested in weeding through
articles about Linux, Minix, SCO, Esix, or whatever other types/brands of
Unix exist in the world. I read this group (comp.os.coherent) to get 
information about Coherent. It is valuable to me as it is, and I think
I would be overwhelmed if I had to sift through all the articles that
would pour into a combined group.

> >>because Unix isn't an operating system: it's a family of operating systems
** Well, technically, Unix IS an operating system. It is not a family of
   anything. It's owned, copyrighted, trademarked, etc. by you know who.

> >>with a common core API... and as far as I'm concerned MINIX, LINUX, and
** POSIX would be an example of a defined API, without actually being
   an operating system.

--
Bill Glidden             bill@glidden.uucp -- glidden!bill@uunet.uu.net
7516 Camarina Calle
Tampa, FL 33615         "Well is an absolute-it has no comparatives."
(813) 882-8369                      Kettle-Belly Baldwin
From: chip@tct.com (Chip Salzenberg)
Subject: Re: RFD: comp.unix.* reorganization
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 12:37:05 GMT
Organization: TC Telemanagement, Clearwater, FL

According to peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva):
>In article <2A6D9AE7.7A31@tct.com> chip@tct.com (Chip Salzenberg) writes:
>>Why [comp.unix.sys3]? The user base is tiny, and shrinking.
>
>When something DOES come in it's almost always useful or something I
>can help with. System 3 is in the same category.

Okay, it's in.
-- 
Chip Salzenberg at Teltronics/TCT  <chip@tct.com>, <73717.366@compuserve.com>
   "Do Rush place weird subliminal backmasked messages in their songs to
 compel unwilling geeks to commit evil .sig atrocities?"  -- Dean Engelhardt
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: zebee@ucs.adelaide.edu.au (Zebee Johnstone)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: rec.moto.harley
Date: 23 Jul 92 07:48:48 GMT
Organization: Information Technology Division, The University of Adelaide, AUSTRALIA

weigl@sibelius.inria.fr (Konrad Weigl) writes:


>Hm...Let me see if I got this right:
>Since you, for what reason whatever, are lacking the sensors to grasp the 
>difference between a Harley Davidson and another motorcycle, you want
>to _FORCE_ Harley riders _AS A GROUP_ to stay on rec.moto?

I'm probably really going to regret buying into this but...

I've ridden several Harleys, (though never owned one) and cannot see
much difference between them and my old Guzzi or the Californian version
of same.

I'm suspicious of the argument that the motorcycle branded Harley is 
different from the motorcycle branded say "Aermacchi" <grin>

The question seems to be this:

"We, who are some people who ride Harley-Davidsons, believe that 
	a) our bikes are so different from others that the experience
	   is quite different from riding any other brand, even the
	   Japanese and Italian bikes that look the same.
	   Therefore we wish to have a group specifically for that, 
	   moreover a group in the rec heirarchy so everyone can
	   access it.

	b) That we can't do this on rec.moto because as soon as you discuss
	   Harleys everyone jumps on you with silly remarks.  "

 can certainly understand (b) as I've seen it, although those who
do the jumping are no more stupid or impolite than the equally bigoted
types who flame Jap bikes.

But I have trouble with (a).  Because I can't see that the Harley rider's
experience on his bike is much different from me on my big old drum brake
Guzzi .

However, as someone else said - the fanatics are already out of rec.moto,
and those who do not believe that the only true motorcyclists ride
Harleys will read rec.moto too.

-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------
     Zebee Johnstone  DoD #605   | You don't own an Italian motorcycle 
     Adelaide City Council       |  - you merely have the privilege 
    zebee@itd.adelaide.edu.au    |    of paying its bills.... 
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: tinsel@uiuc.edu (Thomas Aaron Insel)
Subject: Re: RFD: misc.forsale.computers reorganization
Originator: tai50080@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu
Reply-To: tinsel@uiuc.edu
Organization: {not speaking for the} University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 22:56:59 GMT

mmm@qedqcd.rye.ny.us (Mike Miskulin) writes:

> I am formally proposing the split of misc.forsale.computers into a new
> hierarchy.  At a minimum the succeeding group(s) should be:
> 	    
> 	misc.forsale.computers.hardware
> 	misc.forsale.computers.software

> At a maximum (for purposes of this RFD), a succession to:

> 	misc.forsale.computers.hardware.ibm
> 	misc.forsale.computers.hardware.apple	
> 	misc.forsale.computers.hardware.other
> 	
> 	misc.forsale.computers.software.ibm
> 	misc.forsale.computers.software.apple
> 	misc.forsale.computers.software.other

misc.forsale.computers does have far too much volume to read easily,
but this is not the way to go, for many reasons.  An overwhelming
majority f the traffic is hardware, so a two-way division wouldn't
change things too much.  A breakdown of hardware by system type would
either result crossposting of almost everything, or it would cause
people to overlook potential markets/sources.  For example, printers,
drives, memory, and modems of one type can bee used on Unixes, Macs,
and PC's.

I suggest:

   misc.forsale.computers.systems -- for cpu's, as well as complete
      systems sold bundled.  Can be broken down by to apple, pc,
      unix, other if necessary later.

   misc.forsale.computers.software -- should be more than enough
      to handle current software traffic.
   
   misc.forsale.computers.storage -- disk drives, ram, tape, etc.

   misc.forsale.computers.peripherals -- modems, printers, mice, etc.

   misc.forsale.computers.misc -- books, other computer related items.
-- 
Thomas Aaron Insel (tinsel@uiuc.edu)
  I speak for myself, and not for the State or University of Illinois.
  "We must not confuse dissent with disloyalty." -- Edward R. Murrow
Newsgroups: news.groups,can.politics
From: hagar@hagki.toppoint.de (Oliver Fink)
Subject: Re: talk.politics.canada
Organization: I'm as usual without _any_ organization! CH@OS!!!
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1992 21:29:28 GMT

emd@ham.almanac.bc.ca writes:

>I have just noticed a CFV for a whole range of talk.politics groups 
>including talk.politics.canada . This seems to be a completely redundant 
>newsgroup, in that we already have can.politics, which covers the same 
>subject matter. Furthermore, can.politics will probably reach more sites 
>than talk.politics.canada, as many of us have no interest in the "talk" 
>subset. While I have no objection to any of the other groups, I urge that 
>the proposal for creation of talk.politics.canada be defeated.

I do not know if I shall agree to that. Im not able to get
can.* here, but maybe I am interested in cannadian politics
(Am I? ;-). And I _can_ get talk.*!
So, there is a sense in creating talk.politics.canada. And I
think to add ",talk.politics.canada" to your "Newsgroups:"-line
when posting to can.politics will not be too much work for
you...	;-)

cu,
	hag
	
-- 
***** Oliver Fink, Baumweg 46, 2300 Kiel 1, Germany  +49 431 682423 *****
Der Echte Programmierer will einen "Du hast es so gewollt, da hast Du's"-Edi-
tor, einen der kompliziert ist, skeptisch, leistungsfaehig, gnadenlos und ge-
faehrlich. TECO, um genau zu sein.	Aus: Echte Programmierer meiden PASCAL
From: shz@garage.att.com (Keeper of the 'Tude)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: rec.moto.harley
Date: 22 Jul 92 21:25:12 GMT
Organization: Office of 'Tude Licensing

In article <1992Jul22.171143.19888@cbnewsj.cb.att.com>, car377@cbnewsj.cb.att.com (charles.a.rogers) writes:
> Say, Konrad, have you studied American History in your education?  
> Specifically, are you familiar with the attempt of the Confederacy
> to secede from the United States and the pro/con arguments of the
> time?

Interesting analogy considering that many Harley folks call themselves
rebels and proudly display the Confederate flag.

- Roid
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: tchamov@sunran1.cern.ch (Nikolay Tchamov)
Subject: NEW-Projects 
Keywords: Electronics, Computers, Education, Research, Design
Organization: CERN European Lab for Particle Physics
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 10:52:09 GMT

***************************************************************************

                                 July 24th, 1992, CERN
                                 Geneve, Suisse/Switzerland


Dear Sirs,

I didn`t find a news-group(s) dealing with European Projects like
TEMPUS in example, except ESPRIT & EUROCHIP which is not much 
supplied by news and discusions. 

Do such News-groups exist, where someone can get up-to-date information
about European projects in the fields of :

  Electronics & Computers & Education & Research & Design ?

If not, please give a hint how to get Up-to-date E-mail information 
about projects like those handled by Brussels etc. 

It is too bad to get those informations by ordinary mail 
quite late (sometimes about 2 weeks before the time to apply).

Having such networks and losing some chances is too sad fact.

Thank you very much in advance for your help.

Sincerely,

Nick

--------------------------------------------------------- 
  P.S. Please reply either here (in this News-group) or
  directly to my E-mail address:

                    tchamovn@cernvm.cern.ch

****************************************************************************
From: ssircar@canon.com (Subrata Sircar)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: misc.forsale.computers reorganization
Date: 30 Jul 92 21:36:47 GMT
Reply-To: ssircar@canon.com (Subrata Sircar)
Organization: SPAMIT
Originator: news@ernie.Princeton.EDU

todd@uvmark.uucp (Todd Cooper) writes:
>mmm@qedqcd.rye.ny.us (Mike Miskulin) writes:
>>I am formally proposing the split of misc.forsale.computers into a new
>>hierarchy.  At a minimum the succeeding group(s) should be:
>>	    
>>	misc.forsale.computers.hardware
>>	misc.forsale.computers.software

>SPLIT! I prefer the maximum, with the amount of articles posted to the 
>group, I think that we could use the further specification.


Just a question: what is wrong with the current "trend" of putting a 
.marketplace group in each comp.sys.* node?  It strikes me that those who
are interested in further specification would really like to look at those
groups instead.

Perhaps it's really better to rmgroup misc.forsale.computers and install
groups in the separate nodes for each computer?



-- 
Subrata Sircar | ssircar@canon.com | Prophet & SPAMIT Charter Member
Canon Information Systems and I do not speak for each other on all things.
"I wish people wouldn't instantly assume that I am an idiot." (Valentine)
"A restaurant is a whorehouse that does food instead of sex." (Roger Lustig)
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: 2nd RFD: comp.sys.sgi reorganization
Date: 24 Jul 1992 16:52:05 GMT
Organization: UT Health Science Center Houston

In article <WYNHTSL@taronga.com> peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) writes:
>(this is what you get when you read news.groups right after alt.fan.goons)

Not a pretty sight. you need to get serious help.
-- 
Jay Maynard, EMT-P, K5ZC, PP-ASEL | Never ascribe to malice that which can
jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu      | adequately be explained by a .sig virus.
"Right now, because of you, this city is being overrun by baboons." "Don't
 you think that's the responsibility of the voters?" -- _Naked Gun 2-1/2_
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva)
Subject: Re: comp.sys.mac.advocacy - Underwhelming responses
Organization: Taronga Park BBS
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 00:27:04 GMT

How about "talk.flame.mac"? We're already dropping feeds for all the other
hierarchies with advocacy groups, simply because our sys file is a screaming
horror from the sewers of hell and most of them are of marginal utility
anyway.
-- 
                                                                `-_-'
                         Have you hugged your wolf today?        'U`

Peter da Silva, Taronga Park BBS, Houston, TX  +1 713 568 0480/1032
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: bogstad@rhombus.cs.jhu.edu (Bill Bogstad)
Subject: Re: An aside on INET...
Organization: Johns Hopkins Computer Science Department, Baltimore, MD
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 03:36:51 GMT

In article <wTcDoB36w165w@mantis.co.uk> mathew <mathew@mantis.co.uk> writes:
>If the INET groups aren't going to move to their own hierarchy, then I
>suggest we start a JNET distribution.  After all, if some bunch of random
>people with Internet connectivity can create apparently mainstream groups
>without bothering with a vote, why shouldn't those of us out here in
>UUCP-land be able to do the same?
>
>If anyone's interested in taking up this idea, I suggest that we begin by
>discussing the newsgroups which will be in the JNET distribution.  Here's my
>initial list:

	What?  You're actually going to DISCUSS the groups before creating
them?  You might even let someone convince you to name them differently or
not create some of them?  Doesn't sound much like INET to me....

>...
>Of course, it will be a terrible shame if the control messages to create the
>groups accidentally leak out onto the net at large.

	Since all my news feeds are via NNTP, I hope that your control
messages (and articles) leak through to the Internet (INET????).  Some of
your proposed groups groups might be worth reading as well.

	Actually, I have some ideas for some nice new groups myself.  I
think I'll create a "bbnet" distribution and send out some "newgrps"...

				Bill Bogstad
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva)
Subject: Re: RFD: comp.unix.* reorganization
Organization: Taronga Park BBS
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 23:31:40 GMT

In article <2A6FF816.6813@tct.com> chip@tct.com (Chip Salzenberg) writes:
>According to peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva):
>>The question of what hardware works is inextricably bound with what
>>drivers are available....

>I understand this point of view, but I don't agree with it: Where do
>you stop dividing the hardware?  Just because you have a 386 and I do
>too, your Dell driver doesn't help me if I run SCO UNIX.

But that's software. Whether you're on a 386 or a 286 is hardware. If I
have a 286 I can't use your Dell drivers no matter what software I get.
There's two levels of incompatibility there.

And the 386 drivers with source available tend to be reasonably easily
ported between the various 386 UNIXen. The 286 ones are a different matter.

Next to the 286 versus 386 divide, all other PC UNIXes are virtually
identical.
-- 
                                                                `-_-'
                         Have you hugged your wolf today?        'U`

Peter da Silva, Taronga Park BBS, Houston, TX  +1 713 568 0480/1032
From: nelson@reed.edu (Nelson Minar)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: 2nd RFD: comp.unix.* reorganization
Date: 28 Jul 92 19:33:54 GMT
Article-I.D.: reed.1992Jul28.193354.25908
Organization: Reed College, Portland, OR

In article <1992Jul28.182508.4350@uunet.uu.net> chip@tct.com (Chip Salzenberg) writes:
>  comp.unix.sysv286 -->
>   comp.unix.ibm-pc-arch.16bit   UNIX on 16-bit IBM PC arch. (i286).
>  comp.unix.sysv386 -->
>   comp.unix.ibm-pc-arch.32bit   UNIX on 32-bit IBM PC arch. (i386, i486).

I prefer the names
comp.unix.ibm.pc.16bit
comp.unix.ibm.pc.32bit

It's more pithy and it matches existing newsgroup namings.

On the other hand, I don't think it's very important.
-- 
                __
nelson@reed.edu \/                    The sully-van vultures are on the prowl
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: gberigan@cse.unl.edu (Life...)
Subject: Re: 3rd RFD: comp.binaries.apple2 moderated
Organization: Ursa Minor Beta, 402-476-8047 @ 2400
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 15:24:21 GMT

payner@netcom.com (Rich Payne) writes:
>cust_ts@klaava.Helsinki.FI (Tero Sand) writes:
>>gberigan@cse.unl.edu (Greg "Life..." Berigan) writes:

>>>The moderator and assistants reserve the right to
>>>cancel any posting in comp.binaries.apple2 that is deemed inappropriate.
>>                                                    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

>>I'm not sure I like that last part (mind you, I'm still for moderation).
>>Maybe it should be "... deemed inappropriate as stated in the charter"?

>Agreed, it should be spelled out exactly in the charter. If it does pass,
>lets at least iron out any apparent problems.

Well, "inappropriate" has a wide spread.  That the article was actually
approved by a moderator would imply that it was appropriate, but it
could turn that under closer examination it was not.  However, it is
primarily there as a clause to authorize a moderator to cancel
postings not made by a moderator.

The charter doesn't explicitly state that only moderator-approved
articles are to appear, but it is understood net-wide that that is the
case with a moderated newsgroup except where denied (alt.hackers).

>Rich
>payner@netcom.com

How about "deemed inappropriate by the charter, moderators, and/or the
net at large"?
From: ez000939@bullwinkle.ucdavis.edu (Squid)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: SF models in N. Cal.
Date: 29 Jul 92 22:02:24 GMT
Organization: Computing Services, UC Davis

Hey, anyone know a good source of SF models in Norther California.
Sacramento or San Fransisco would be closest to me.
Right now I've been going to a shop in Japan town in
San Fran to find anime models and a place in Sacramento
to find stuff like the Halcyon kits.

Please mail me.  Thanks.

*******************************************************************
Squid
ez000939@bullwinkle.ucdavis.edu
From: nelson@reed.edu (Nelson Minar)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: 2nd RFD: comp.unix.* reorganization
Date: 29 Jul 92 21:43:20 GMT
Organization: Reed College, Portland, OR

In article <2A768CD8.4F94@tct.com> chip@tct.com (Chip Salzenberg) writes:
>I say:
>>I prefer the names
>>comp.unix.ibm.pc.16bit
>>comp.unix.ibm.pc.32bit
>I hadn't thought of that possibility.
>Does anyone think this proposal particularly (un)worthy?

Well, since you asked, I think the whole "ibm.pc" bit is silly. It
could imply other things in the comp.unix.ibm heirarchy -
comp.unix.ibm.rs6000, comp.unix.ibm.ps2, comp.unix.ibm.overpriced..
"comp.unix.ibm-pc" is probably more reasonable from a naming point of
view, and "comp.unix.ibm-and-compatibles" is probably more accurate.

On the other hand, ibm.pc is a well established naming glitch, and no
one has ever gotten confused. It's also pithy, and its meaning is
obvious.

On my left foot, this is all pedantic. Go with a name that's short,
easy to type, and relatively disambiguous.
-- 
                __
nelson@reed.edu \/                                    D is for lots of things
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: comp.unix.* reorganization
From: ecmtwhk@ccu1.aukuni.ac.nz (Thomas Koenig)
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 07:22:51 GMT
Organization: University of Auckland, New Zealand.

So, what about comp.os.unix.* ?

(No, I'm not serious)
-- 
Thomas Koenig, ecmtwhk@ccu1.aukuni.ac.nz, ib09@rz.uni-karlsruhe.de
The joy of engineering is to find a straight line on a double logarithmic
diagram.
Newsgroups: news.groups,comp.unix.sysv386
From: chip@tct.com (Chip Salzenberg)
Subject: Re: RFD: comp.unix.* reorganization
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 21:02:18 GMT
Organization: TC Telemanagement, Clearwater, FL

According to john@jwt.UUCP (John Temples):
>In article <2A6FFB8D.7962@tct.com> chip@tct.com (Chip Salzenberg) writes:
>>There's a thought.  Does anyone else have words of support or
>>criticism for "c.u.dos-with-unix"?
>
>It looks like it means running DOS with UNIX on the same machine on
>different disk partitions.

Right.  It's out.

>Would using actual product names divide things too much?

In my opinion: Yes.
-- 
Chip Salzenberg at Teltronics/TCT  <chip@tct.com>, <73717.366@compuserve.com>
   "Do Rush place weird subliminal backmasked messages in their songs to
 compel unwilling geeks to commit evil .sig atrocities?"  -- Dean Engelhardt
From: swf@teradata.com (Stanley Friesen)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: comp.unix.* reorganization
Date: 23 Jul 92 16:32:37 GMT
Reply-To: swf@tdat.teradata.com (Stanley Friesen)
Organization: NCR Teradata Database Business Unit

In article <1992Jul22.154503.5677@unlinfo.unl.edu> gberigan@cse.unl.edu (Life...) writes:
|ecmtwhk@ccu1.aukuni.ac.nz (Thomas Koenig) writes:
|
|>So, what about comp.os.unix.* ?
|>
|>(No, I'm not serious)
|
|But I am.  It does make sense, if the unix moniker is kept, to place it
|under comp.os.  And now would be the best opportunity to do so.
|
And I think it is a good idea as well.  After all unices *are* OS's,
arent't they?  I mean keeping the unix hierarchy *out* of comp.os makes
no sense really.

-- 
sarima@teradata.com			(formerly tdatirv!sarima)
  or
Stanley.Friesen@ElSegundoCA.ncr.com
Newsgroups: news.groups