From: jorgej@colossus.cs.rpi.edu (Joaquim Jorge)
Subject: Re: E. Timor & Indonesia
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute Computer Science, Troy NY
	<1992Nov19.204025.12907@doug.cae.wisc.edu>
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 15:27:25 GMT

In article <1992Nov19.204025.12907@doug.cae.wisc.edu> dewanto@cae.wisc.edu (Gaston Dewanto) writes:


   From: dewanto@cae.wisc.edu (Gaston Dewanto)


   >Where is your argument? By your point of view, Portugal should be Spanish,
   >because Spain is all around us... Timor is different ethnically, linguistic
   >and culturally from Java, and it will not be "Pancasila" that will change 
   > by miracle thousands of years of history.
   >
   You forget that the West Timor and East Timor are in the same island and
   they are the same ethnic. The West Timorese are Indonesians and so are the
   East Timorese. Don't you know that there are many efforts to integrate
   people from the same ethnic like the West and Est German, South and North
   Korea or North and South Vietnam. If we were separated, we should be
   very thankful to you or other civilized people who came for Glory, Gold
   and Gospel.

What Jose' Basto was saying is that, although E. Timor and W. Timor are on
the same island. Here are some facts quoted from a 1990 seminar on E. Timor:

"...
       When the Portuguese merchants and missionaries arrived in East Timor by
the beginning of the XVI century [around 1515], in sharp contrast with the rest
of what is now Indonesia, its population was animist and knew no written
language.

        Neither Hinduism nor Buddhism nor even Islam had penetrated the people
of Timor, totally untouched by the dominant cultural influences of Indonesia,
although there existed trade with China, Malacca and with other regions now
belonging to Indonesia.
        By then the island was already divided in two confederations of
kingdoms:

- one under the aegis of the Sombay kingdom, or confederation of Servian, on
the western part of the island [corresponding to what is now western Timor

- the other under the supremacy of the Behale kingdom, or confederation of
Belos, in eastern Timor.

        The latter was already using by then a common lingua franca, Te'tum.

        The division of Timor in two halves has historical reasons dating back
to pre-colonial times.

        During the third quarter of the XVI century, the Portuguese established
themselves on a permanent basis on the island through Dominican friars who
exercised a progressive cultural and religious influence whilst the Portuguese
domination expanded itself.

        In 1970, a third of the Timorese were Catholic and only 0.04 per cent
of the population [234 people] were Muslim. Two thirds of the population
remained faithful to traditional animist beliefs.

        In 1651 the Dutch defeated the Portuguese and occupied Kupang on the
far western part of the island before they started penetrating the western side
of the island. This shows how ancient the colonial division of the island is.

        In 1859 a treaty was consummated between the Portuguese and the
Netherlands settling the border areas between Portuguese East Timor and Dutch
western Timor.

        In 1945 the then Dutch East Indies became the Republic of Indonesia of
which western Timor was part.
... "

	[ ... stuff deleted ... ]

   >If you look at UN records,you will see that:i) Portugal never did recognize
   >indepence to E.Timor;ii) Portugal accused FRETILIN of illegally seizing the
   >power; iii) Portugal still is the admnistrating power of E. Timor.
   >
   So you are still supporting imperialism. Congratulation, you just show
   your real face. 

Mr Dewanto, Portugal has no ambitions whatsoever on East Timor. We are too 
small a country, too far apart, and too week economically and militarly to even
think about returning to past colonialist times. It is a good thing that the
1974 revolution brought down a regime that didn't see the errors of its ways.

   If you accused Fretilin did illegal thing, why do you let them in your 
   country live freely? 

See above.

   [ ... ]
   >
   >Being an western,I find difficult to understand why you don't give the some
   >importance to a single human life, as we do. But, living with International
   >neigbours from all over the world, I can learn. We have much more in common
   >than differences (real differences, not form of the eyes, or color of the 
    skin,
   >etc ...). We are all human beings, and WE ARE ALL IN THE SAME BOAT, you 
   > liked it or not.
   >
   We care about human life. However, we can not let any independent movement
   in our area, because it will give much more problem. See Yugoslavia or
   USSR for example. Are they better now after the fall of socialism?
   We don't have any intention to kill any East Timorese, after all they are
   the same of us. However to keep the stability, we have to act harshly,
   which unfortunately victimize innocent people.

Every dictatorial regime kills or imprisons its subjects in the name of
stability, law and order. The point is the East Timorese never had a say in
whether they wanted to join Indonesia.

   [ ... Stuff about Australia's ambitions on E. Timor deleted ... ]
   >
   >No comments:their subordinates kill more than 100 people,and they walk away
   >with a little tap on the back (wait and see, perhaps they will get promoted
   >soon, after all the publicity about will get down ...)
   >
   They were fired and many people in the military regretted it.
   I believe that is the end of their careers.

As far as I know, nobody in the military was discharged as a result of the 
events of 11/12/91. The harshest punishment I remember was some general inc 
charge of E.T. troops being sent to study towards an MBA in Boston, MA. 
Contrast that with the harsh sentences applied to demonstrators...

[...]

Regards,

--
Joaquim Jorge
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