From: L-Bueno@cup.portal.com (Louis Alberto Bueno)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: zionism in crisis
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 93 14:50:48 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
  <C1Bn62.5Gp@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> <74244@cup.portal.com>
  <C1D5v0.JzF@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca>

dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) writes:
>L-Bueno@cup.portal.com (Louis Alberto Bueno) writes:
> 
>#       I agree, Christianity has been a scourge on the human race.  It's a
># Belief System (tm) perpetuated through money and violence, and the various
># conquests and inquisitions have surely left civilization bereft of many
># potential creative people.  Hmm... let me amend this to ALL religions, but
># certainly Christianity stands out in modern times.
> 
>#       Therefore, Jewish people have not been known to wage wars based on
># their Belief System (tm)?  Remember, this is a question, not rhetoric, so
># please treat it as such.
>
>Depends on your point of view. For instance, two great rebellions of the
>Jews - against the Selukites and the Romans - occured because of the
>attempt of these foreign rulers to eradicate the Jewish religion by
>force (by executing practicing Jews etc). These were, to the best of
>my knowledeg, the last instances of Jews going to war for religious reasons.

	Then I have a question: Since Israel is founded on Zionism, which
is indisputably a Jewish political movement, and considering that Judaism
is a religion, would then this make the state of Israel a theocracy?

>#       From what I have read of Ethiopian Jews in Israel, only a small
># number have been allowed to immigrate into Israel, while Russian Jews have
># been able to rain down aplenty.  I do understand that both groups have had
># great difficulty finding meaningful jobs and proper housing, but I've also
># understand that the Ethiopian Jews have been sequestered in the remote
># lands of Israel.  Care to comment?
>
>a) There where/are much, much more Jews in the ex-USSR than in Ethiopia.
>   I have not heard of any case in which a quota was put on the number
>   of Ehtiopian Jews.

	See my future posting of the N.Y. Times article concerning this
issue.

>b) Just having returned from Israel, I can say that your information
>   is false; Russian and Ehtiopian Jews are put in more or less the same
>   type of places. That is not to say there are not different difficulties
>   in absorbing Ethiopians than in absorbing Russians - the two are very
>   different cultures. What has that got to do with Judaism I fail to see.

	My points and questions are not on Judaism.  I just happened to
jump into this thread with issues I'd like to discuss.  If this should
displease you, please feel free to change the header of the thread.  My
newsreader can keep up quite well :-)

>#       I believe the statement you've responded to is attempting to 
># indicate the perceived isolationism of Israel by the Western world. Since
># "ethnic groups" and not "religions" is the subject of the common ground,
># your response is misguided.  I do believe any nation, not just Israel,
># *should* be searching for a common ground between other nations. Using
># one's enemies as an excuse not to pursue such is simply thinly-veiled
># isolationism, and possibly at worst, xenophobic.
>
>Well, every attentive student of history will agree thta Jews, and Israel,
>have good reasons to be xenophobic. Do you agree?

	I agree that if the past is not treated as the past, then the
damage can never be repaired.  We see one region that is suffering from
such idiocy: ex-Yugoslavia.

>#       I myself root for the Human Race team.  
>
>If only we had more like you! Please, I am not being sarcastic. But
>you cannot blame Jews (or any other persecuted group) for not behaving
>as if all people shared your opinions; obviously, most people don't.

	Most people don't share my opinions?  Now, that's a grand
statement if I ever heard one! :-)  I can't speak for everyone you've
been acquainted with, but where I come from, they do share my thoughts
and feelings on the subject.  My opinions were not created in a total
vacuum :-)

	As far as this "persecuted" status for Jews, I wish to know how
Jews are persecuted in Israel.  I do happen to know that Palestinians 
neatly fit this category, in almost every country they take refuge in.

[...]
># but I know what I want; a non-emotional explanation of
># the ongoing brutalization of a non-Jewish people by a people who themselves
># were once brutalized.  Atrocities by any other name are still atrocities.
>
>Well, that is a totally different issue than bashing Judaism, as has been
>done here endlessly by our "good Rabbi". You are talking about the
>politics of the state of Israel. Certainly, the situation is not so
>simple, and Israel cannot be portrayed as the only villain on the scene.

	There are many characters in this tragic play.  Almost everyone
has blood on their hands.  Now, how can this blood be washed off without
a continuation of bloodletting?

>-Danny Keren.

Regards,

--Louis
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