From: boyken@herky.cs.uiowa.edu (Karl Boyken)
Subject: Re: PSI - summary of book review
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 18:34:27 GMT
Organization: Dept. of Comp. Sci., U. of Iowa

In article <1992Jul28.172014.14837@m.cs.uiuc.edu>, mcgrath@cs.uiuc.edu
(Robert McGrath) writes:

[...]

> OK, I'll be even more clear.  Answer the questions in ANY WAY you want,
> so long as you state your opinion.  I want you to appeal to whatever
> experience and authority YOU think is relevant.
> 
> If you can't answer the questions in their present form just say so.
> 
> |> Your questions imply that you
> |> believe that perception depends upon material interactions, that
> |> photons "really" exist, etc., etc.  
> 
> If you think I am mistaken in these apparent assumptions, then
> just say so.  To be fair, you should indicate what you think
> would be better assumptions.  
> 
> To give you a possible sample answer:
> |> |>> How can it "see" light (photons) without any of the ususal retina
> |> |>> and neural apparatus?
>   Possible response:  Perception does not actually depend on the retina 
>   and neural apparatus.
> 
> Was that difficult?
> 
> Now you try it:
> 
> |> >I repeat my questions and challenge you to give me a straight answer.
> |> >I emphasize that I am asking for the benefit of your own personal
> |> >experience, which we BOTH agree is important, and we BOTH agree is
> |> >valid.
> |> >
> |> |>> What I really wnat to know is:  What happens while you are (or feel
> |> |>> you are) out of your body?  What is the "you" that is outside?
> |> |>> How can it "see" light (photons) without any of the ususal retina
> |> |>> and neural apparatus?
> |> |>> And most of all, "What, if anything, leaves the body during your OBE?"
> |> >
> 
> -- 
>   Robert E. McGrath
>   Urbana Illinois
>   mcgrath@cs.uiuc.edu
> 
> 

All right; here goes:

I don't think there's any model that accurately describes what happens during
paranormal phenomena.  Various models have varying degrees of utility in
trying to understand the paranormal.

>From my own personal experience, the model that I find most useful in under-
standing the paranormal is that all perception occurs in a dream-like state of
consciousness.  In other words, the "reality" we perceive is just another
flavor of the dream state.  I find this model the most useful because to me,
paranormal experiences give me the same feeling as cues that trigger lucidity
when I'm dreaming.  I have experienced the intuitive knowledge, while awake,
that the waking state is a dream--a waking-state counterpart to lucid
dreaming.

It is impossible to test whether or not reality is a dream state, just as it
is impossible to prove that the material world really exists.  The model is
an abstraction, just as the scientific model of the world is an abstraction.
Both have utility, and I feel free to use each as it suits me--I try to be
pragmatic.  I wouldn't try to design and build a bridge using the dream-state
model, and I wouldn't try to understand what happens during an OBE using the
scientific model.  But I don't find them mutually exclusive.  For me, they're
complementary, like the particle-wave duality of quantum physics.  But I'd
never make the claim that the world "really" is what either model says it is.

*****        _My_ views, no one else's--except those I plagiarize         *****
Karl Boyken, system programmer | Distant cousins, there's a limited supply, and
Department of Computer Science | we're down to the dozens, and this is why:
The University of Iowa         | big-eyed beans from Venus--oh my, oh my!
boyken@herky.cs.uiowa.edu      |                           -- Captain Beefheart

Xref: sparky sci.skeptic:13317 alt.paranormal:1963