HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: tyadav@athena.mit.edu (Tapesh Yadav)
Subject: Re: Individualism...
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 19:34:50 GMT

=========================================
> (Tapesh Yadav) writes: 
>   "I, and I alone, am the only one responsible for my own happiness" 

> (Venu Nayar) responds:
>however, sometimes it is also possible that my happiness is the result of
>someone else's happiness and well-being. 

> (Tapesh Yadav) enquires: 
> Who is this "someone else?"

 samaddar@siemens.com replies:
>How does this individualism of yours reconcile with the "submission" to
>a "soul-mate" that you mentioned in another post? MAYBE this "someone else"
>is your "soul-mate". The point that Venu (PERHAPS) made was that it is
>possible to feel happy by just making someone else happy. That someone else
>can be more than one people.

 Well, you are not Venu. Arguments and followups, should not be based 
 on MAY BE or PERHAPS like assumptions. Appears to me as a way to incr 
 INTERNET noise. Why should we assume what Venu (or anyone) means when
 all we need to do is just ask.

 Contextually, this particular question: "Who is this "someone else?" is a 
 relevant and generic question. And as your post implicitly suggests, has many 
 different answers:
 - the "someone else" is someone you love
 - the "someone else" is a stranger, an arbitrary stranger

 If you love that someone, then anything you do would make both of you
 happy - your values, tastes, personalities have a lot in common. You 
 are happy both ways: in the act of making someone happy, AND because 
 the "someone" is happy. This someone, then, could be 
 the soul mate(tm) /kid/parents/friend/math equation/.......

 If the someone else is stranger, then we are talking about "living for
 others ala altruism" stuff. And, if Venu or you meant that, then we just
 have to respectfully disagree and leave it there. Because, IMO,

  Each human is responsible and capable of his/her own happiness.
  No if and buts.

T.Y.
----
tyadav@athena.mit.edu
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
From: moh2@quads.uchicago.edu (Kateri/Mary Anne)
Subject: Oldest Daughters (comments welcome)
Reply-To: moh2@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 21:59:27 GMT

(I try to only post relevant poems here....anyone looking for more of
my stuff should look in rec.arts.poems)

*****

Oldest Daughters


"They say leave you alone,
you're only sixteen."		(popular song fragment)

She was twelve when it happened.
An unexpected death, and suddenly
cast adrift.
A mother is left with a child too young, fatherless.
Solution obvious.
Marriage.
(christian ceremony in an island church, mosquitoes heavy in the air,
and the scent of incense mingles with the sweat of overheated men to
form an unforgettable perfume underlying the snapshot of brown bodies)
Twelve years old.
She bore nine children of her own:  eight girls, one boy.

The oldest is Jacintha.
Seventeen when the fairy tale comes to life.
A doctor-to-be walks by her well,
on his way to visit a rich girl.
Instant passion (on his side, at least).
And he goes to her father and demands her hand.
Gladly, gratefully granted.
Jacintha marries her doctor at eighteen.
(seven more sisters after her, hurry, and soon she will travel to
America, following her doctor to icy New England winters and pale
faces in white Catholic church...a sea of white among which her red
sari is a forbidden note of forgotten joy)
Pregnant within weeks,
And another daughter is born, first of three.
True story.

This oldest is twenty-one.
Unmarried, and likely to remain so for a few years.
(although men aplenty, women too, have crisscrossed years of life and
learning; sorry that her mother left high school to marry...and her
grandmother never started)
Generations of sacrifice
To necessity and survival
Impose their weighty load.

In this moment may be found the luxury 
Of searching for 'true love'.
How many generations to reach this point?
And what sacrifices will be made for future oldest daughters?

*****

M.A. Mohanraj
-- 
More than any other time in history, mankind faces a crossroads.  One
path leads to despair and utter hopelessness.  The other to total
extinction. Let us pray we have the wisdom to choose correctly.
						 - Woody Allen
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
From: smehta@kwela.nynexst.com (Sandeep Mehta)
Subject: NYT bashing [was Re: Linear times in Amrika]
Reply-To: smehta@nynexst.com
Organization: Speech Technology, AI Lab, NYNEX S&T Inc, White Plains, NY
Date: 16 Nov 92 15:27:58


> am299cp@sdcc15.ucsd.edu (ashok machcha) writes:

> A random study sampple conducted by Northern Illinois Univ., examining
> about 180 issues, found that ONLY crisis events of India 
> were covered in the NYT.
> 
> I am now subscribing to NYT.  Havta see what barbara crosette is up to next !

Like all random study samples the results too happen to vary randomly
from study to study 8-) I thought that the disparaging remarks about
the Indian rap music scene (w/ "Thanda Thanda Pani" -- the Indian
take on Ice Ice, Baby -- having gone platinum or whatever ;-)) to be
on the money.

FYI, Barbara Crossette is no longer the NYT correspondent, bureau
chief, whatever in India. In fact, last time I saw her she was back
in DC on some PBS talk(ing heads) show. If you think the NYT is
"negative" try The Economist for its smugness -- which doesn't mean
that their analysis isn't correct, just that Indians have a hard time
dealing w/ it.

/sandeep
--
smehta@nynexst.com
--
        "This space of time is organized. We need not fear these
	 silences, -- we may love them." -- John Cage, Silences, 1961.
From: udumudi@vanilla (u v babu srinivas)
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
Subject: Re: SEX
Date: 21 Nov 1992 09:37:47 GMT
Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute
NNTP-Posting-Host: vanilla.wpi.edu
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]

A == Amirthi [Kateri/Mary Anne] (moh2@quads.uchicago.edu) wrote:

A> A couple more questions.  Everything so far seems to be directed at
A> standard heterosexual monogamous relations.

A> How do you feel about:

A> 8. Homosexuals? (sex with someone of the same sex)
A> 	8a.  Do lesbians bother you more than homosexuals?
A> 		The other way around?  Why, if so?
A> 9. Bisexuals? (people who sleep with members of both sexes)
A> 10. Polyamory? (simultaneous relationship with more than one person)
A> 11. Sadism? (sexual arousal by means of inflicting pain)
A> 12. Masochism? (sexual arousal by mean of being hurt)


few more important question [more important than above 5, I think]: 

how do you feel about:

13. [unmarried] having sex with a neighbour's/friend's wife?  

14. [married] having sex with friend's/neighbour's wife?

15. [married/unmarried] having sex with someone who you don't
    know very well, but know that s/he is married?


and going a bit too far:

16. with a distant relative, sex with whom is prohibited in your 
    culture?

17. within a family?


answers!

							  -- srinivas
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
|                                                                         |
|                                                                         |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: arunk@cs.utexas.edu (Arun Kandappan)
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
Subject: Re: Excluding men
Date: 17 Nov 1992 20:20:39 -0600
Organization: University of Texas at Austin
NNTP-Posting-Host: megalon.cs.utexas.edu

In article <1992Nov18.002019.26782@cbnewsi.cb.att.com> alok@cbnewsi.cb.att.com (alok.vijayvargia) writes:
>In article <17NOV199211084807@rosie.uh.edu>, fina2f@rosie.uh.edu (Venkatesh, P. C.) writes:

>Could we see some sort of a vote count or referendum among the subscribers
>of this mailing list on this issue ?

It is a private mailing list. Let them be. 

>How would others know about these so called womens issues if there is
>limited access to this group ?  I mean how are men going to know about
>these womens issues ? Are the moderators or somebody going to post 
>summaries of these issues on the open groups like sci or acuai etc ?
>Would there be an open discussion on these issues after such summary
>postings ? Will the result of these open discussions then be discussed
>on the private maillist and so on ? I mean - what is the mechanism you
>or the organizers of this private mailing list propose to have men
>involved at some point ? Do you see the need at all of having men
>involved at some point in future ?
>Alok
>

Private mailing lists are just that. Private. If you look into it everybody,
from the ANSI committees to private companies have mailing lists that are
on an invitation only basis. Why is this list an issue now ? If someone 
on the list wants to discuss or carry on a conversation on the net I am sure
they would. 

	Let go. Not everyone feels comfortable discussing things on s.c.i

	Arun
-- 
Arun Kandappan                                  arunk@cs.utexas.edu
512+345-1616   EE Dept, UT at Austin TX 78712   uunet!cs.utexas.edu!arunk
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
From: prabhak@giga.cs.umn.edu (Satya Prabhakar)
Subject: Re: Excluding men
Organization: University of Minnesota, Minneapolis, CSci dept.
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 17:57:10 GMT

>Posted for Susan Chacko, whose usual posting address is 
>temporarily out of commission.

>I initially assumed that men would be part of the group too. In
>fact, having been in largely male-dominated places for most
>of my life, I couldn't imagine an all-female group. Now that the
>group is in operation, however, I have found that it has a
>unique character which I like a lot. It serves a unique function:

	In all institutions from which the cold wind of open
	criticism is excluded, an innocent corruption begins
	to grow like a mushroom - for example, in senates and
	learned societies.		- Nietzsche
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
Organization: Arizona State University
Date: Monday, 23 Nov 1992 17:09:01 MST
From: <AUASV@ASUACAD.BITNET>
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
Subject: HASH IS BACK FOR YOUR PLEASURE

If you can't stand the heat, get out of the net!!!
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
From: gillu@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (mandeev.sandhu)
Subject: Re: Linear times in Amrika
Organization: AT&T
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 20:13:19 GMT

	Very interesting stuff written by Manish. I usually do not post
but this time the urge was strong. Perhaps the article goaded me, or
maybe I am in my elements after achieving instant gratification on 
solving a software bug.
	Anyway, I too have given thought to the cultural context
of explaining differences in attitude between Americans and desis ( and
the not so desis). So many times I have felt that it is more a function
of the conditions or environment external to us. For example, when
I visited India my friend told me that I could call at the neighbours
appartment below his and that either they would call my friend or pass
on the message. This resource crunch that we all go thru in India
somehow teaches us to co-operate and more importantly, teaches us to
share so as to be mutually beneficial. Sitting in the train I can ask
for the newspaper from my neighbor, or I can even offer my
homemade "parathas" to him or her.
	The other thing is the fuedal factor. The society in India, as we
all know, is emerging from fuedalism. Being part of a heirarchy and 
subordination to the collective was not just an appendage of fuedalism 
but a requirement for the system to function.  Fuedalism does not
but a condition for its existence. Fuedalism does not
recognize individualism as a right. This mentality takes roots, and
very deep ones too, when living in a society such as in India. But
we see things changing in the urban areas where "impersonal"
relationships are not uncommon.
	So the point is that whatever we call "American" culture may be
a result of bourgeosie individualism which comes as a result of
modern capitalism. And whatever we term as "Indian" culture may
be largely due to the fuedal values that were enshrined in our system.

	Ofcourse, my motive here is not to subordinate all of
"culture" as a side effect of the economic system we follow, but
the economic system does have a major role to play.


mandeep
ms@honasa.att.com
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
From: tyadav@athena.mit.edu (Tapesh Yadav)
Subject: .....Re: Heritage and Culture
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 19:22:36 GMT

===========================
  tyadav@athena.mit.edu wrote:
] Personally speaking, I never care about what my forefather's 
] culture/heritage was/is. In social life, I present "myself," 
] and "my" thoughts/reasons.
] And I am happy with the quality of friends I make/keep. 

  mece1xg@menudo.uh.edu (purna) replies:
] [delete stuff]-------
] but i still wonder.....
] do you believe in murder and/or capital punishment?
] how about divorce?
] pre-marital sex?
] etc.
] your answers to these questions, WHETHER YOU LIKE IT OR NOT, WILL
] be influenced by what you were taught to believe as "right" while
] growing up.  and, in that case, it was most likely your parents who
] showed you "right" from "wrong".  if so, they were probably relying
] on their OWN beliefs as well as experiences.  thus, some part of
] your "culture" will be passed on.

 This appears to be excessive generalization. A conjecture/hypothesis 
 stretched beyond the yield point.

 Lets remove the emotional rhetoric - "whether you like it or not" stuff -
 and make some observations:

 [1] Children from the same family (even twins) have different (very 
     different many times) beliefs and sense of "rights" and "wrongs."
 [2] Individuals from same neighborhood differ dramatically.
 [3] Above rhetoric doesn't explain the "where did it all begin" of
     these common rights and wrongs.
 [4] People disagree. What initiates that disagreement?
 [5] If there is something really called culture/heritage, many readers of
     this newsgroup should have overwhelming shared beliefs; but, with few
     months of its life, all I observe is a set of very contrasting 
     opinions/thoughts. 
 [6] You can never completely know anyone other than yourself. So I don't 
     how you can be sure that everyone IS influenced; Would suggest you to not 
     generalize or underestimate the human ability to be a fountainhead of 
     thought/reason/values. 
     Yes, we learn. And we should. But, learning isn't programming.

 Given all this, I can hardly find any substance in your assertion: 
   "Whether you like it or not, you answers will be influenced by....."

 Did I misunderstand you?

T.Y.
----
tyadav@athena.mit.edu
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
From: baindur@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Satyen G Baindur)
Subject: Re: RACISM
Organization: HAC - Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1992 16:08:21 GMT

In article <samaddar.722317135@dumbo> samaddar@siemens.com writes:
>baindur@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Satyen G Baindur) writes:
>
>>example, there is an interview with a white store owner who said that 
>>people did not want to shop at her store any more because there were some 
>>Indian-owned stores on the same block. So now she resented the Indians. 
>>Note, of course, that while her resentment is economic, the reaction of her 
>>erstwhile customers is completely racist, and in the final analysis, it is 
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>I find this hard to believe. Indians (like most customers) will shop
>wherever they find the best value for their money. Usually Indian-owned
>shops DO sell at a cheaper price, but not always. They sell cheaper because
>they rely on family members to help out rather than pay and hire someone.
>But why should that make a difference to a customer?
>

I think you misunderstood. The erstwhile customers were white. The demographics 
of the area changed in the last decade, and Indians became a significant 
population group. Some Indian stores came to that block, to serve both the 
Indians as specialty stores, as well as the general population. Thus the 
area had significant numbers of Indians, shopping both in the white-owned 
and Indian-owned stores, and white customers became uncomfortable.  
I think you understood the situation to be one where the erstwhile Indian 
customers of the white woman started shopping exclusively at the Indian 
stores after they came to the area. Talk about turning things on their head !

If you did not indeed misunderstand, then the answer you seek will amount
to a rationalization of a racist reaction.
There isn't one. Some (many ?) white people 
feel uncomfortable around/on the same block as non-white people. They 
shouldn't, but that's just how racism works - generalizations not founded
on any prior experience can be arrived at, simply because of a new cultural or 
racial presence in the area. In addition, of course, generalizing from the 
particular (that is, extending a single experience with a person or persons 
from an ethnic group to the whole group), and choosing an external attribute 
as a causative factor ( are some black neighborhoods badly maintained and 
unhygienic because the people who live there are black, or because the people 
who live there are poor, uneducated and powerless to influence the municipal 
authorities ?) also contribute to racism. 

--Satyen
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
From: rairan@ecf.toronto.edu (RAI Ranjan)
Subject: Re: SEX
Organization: University of Toronto, Engineering Computing Facility
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1992 05:40:25 GMT

In article <1992Nov23.213649.9049@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU> c150-bt@po.berkeley.edu (Manish Vij) writes:
>
>You don't need to support homosexuality; it will exist regardless of your
>consent.  As to whether it's natural: consider the fact that it has existed
>throughout the history of humanity.  Consider that several species of animals
>exhibit homosexuality, sometimes in large numbers (albeit temporarily in
>those instances).  Consider that research has implied a brain-based beginning
>to homosexuality.
>
>My guess is that homosexuality arises from a combination of biological and
>mentally conditioned factors.  There is also no one monolithic "homosexuality";
>people vary in the degree to which they are attracted to the opposite sex.
>Why condemn it?  Whom does it hurt, you and your tender sensibilities?
>
>Manish

Homosexuality is natural but it is also abnormal.  
We condem it because it is abnormal - not because it is unnatural. 
-- 
Ranjan Rai                             <rairan@ecf.toronto.edu> 
Engineering Science 9T3                <rr@odin.control.toronto.edu> 
University of Toronto
From: samaddar@siemens.com (Sumitro Samaddar)
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
Subject: Re: RACISM
Date: 21 Nov 92 03:38:55 GMT
Reply-To: samaddar@siemens.com

baindur@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Satyen G Baindur) writes:

>example, there is an interview with a white store owner who said that 
>people did not want to shop at her store any more because there were some 
>Indian-owned stores on the same block. So now she resented the Indians. 
>Note, of course, that while her resentment is economic, the reaction of her 
>erstwhile customers is completely racist, and in the final analysis, it is 
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I find this hard to believe. Indians (like most customers) will shop
wherever they find the best value for their money. Usually Indian-owned
shops DO sell at a cheaper price, but not always. They sell cheaper because
they rely on family members to help out rather than pay and hire someone.
But why should that make a difference to a customer?

Sumitro
From: venu@cirrus.com (Venu Nayar)
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
Subject: Re: RACISM
Date: 19 Nov 92 06:39:11 GMT
Organization: Cirrus Logic Inc.

In <1992Nov18.223314.22221@midway.uchicago.edu> moh2@quads.uchicago.edu (Kateri/Mary Anne) writes:

>And Ron, please....if you have to swear, swear, okay?  Saying sh** and
>f*** is so damn pointless....and just makes me want to laugh.   If

i agree with this...expletives have their place do bring across the tone 
of a post much better sometimes. but saying f*** and s*** doesn't quite cut
it. 

>A list of common Anglo-Saxon expletives for those too innocent to
>understand the Ron's post:  shit, damn, fuck, hell, bitch, cunt, dick,
>spic, honky, nigger, fag, dyke (previous few depending on who uses
>them), etc.  Mail me if you need definitions.

see, that set across just how amirthi feels :-).
-- 
Venu Nayar			|		Internet: venu@cirrus.com
Cirrus Logic Inc.		|		(510)-226-2100 X3737 
For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat,
and wrong.
From: venu@cirrus.com (Venu Nayar)
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
Subject: Re: RACISM
Date: 20 Nov 92 01:37:38 GMT
Organization: Cirrus Logic Inc.

In <1992Nov19.202218.2608@midway.uchicago.edu> moh2@quads.uchicago.edu
(Kateri/Mary Anne) writes: 

>In article <1992Nov19.163552.13364@cirrus.com> venu@cirrus.com (Venu Nayar)
writes: 

>>now, given that they are a minority, how do you suggest the non-whites
>>participate in combating racism? i can think of only one possible way:
>>stand up and fight it (which is being done). but, besides fighting racism by
>>refusing to accept it, making any incident public and well-known, i can't
>>think of any other way in which a person belonging to a minority can prevent
>>racism against that minority.  

>Spread understanding.
>Talk about your culture.
>Mix with people of many different racial backgrounds.
>Do your best to make sure that you *never* discriminate yourself (and
>that includes racial humor, because it can and will be thrown back in
>your face)
>Teach by example that you are an individual, not solely an Asian, a
>christian, a whatever....try to make others understand that people are
>all individuals, and generalizing on the basis of race is
>unproductive.


hmmm. interesting points, though i didn't quites say so, the educating
process is some of what i meant by "fighting racism by refusing to accept
it"...i didn't mean hit back.

another thing which i want to meantion here in response to your third point
regarding mixing is that a direct result of racism is fear. i mean, no one
who has been beaten up because he/she speaks or looks different is going to
feel comfortable in the company of the majority very easily. so, it does
mean that while standing up and fighting racism in this way, one must be
prepared to take some hard knocks. just and observation.
 
-- 
Venu Nayar			|		Internet: venu@cirrus.com
Cirrus Logic Inc.		|		(510)-226-2100 X3737 
For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat,
and wrong.