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Date:         Fri, 13 Nov 1992 09:54:14 -0500
From:         Eric James Ewanco <ewanco@MLO.DEC.COM>
Subject:      Re: The Gospel

Excerpts from christia: 13-Nov-92 Re: The Gospel laughing all day@LSUVM.B (484)

> Second, if you read the Scriptures and STILL agree with Rome, then
> either you have not read what Rome REALLY teaches in their OFFICIAL
> stuff vs. what you get in your perishchurch, OR your hermeneutics are
> coloured by Rome's presuppositions, in my opinion.  You might be bending
> the Scriptures around your Romish presuppositions.

I read the Scriptures and believed Rome was the only truly Biblically
based church.

Where do your read our "official" stuff, from your friend Lorraine
Boettner, who lied and twisted the truth in "Roman Catholicism", or have
you read the writing of Augustine, Irenaeus, Ignatius, Aquinas, plus all
the proceedings of the ecumenical councils (the ONLY authoritative
teaching of the church besides infallible statements of the Pope, which
there have been basically only two, the Assumption and the Immaculate
Conception).

I have studied a great deal about my church and its teachings.  True, if
you are convinced by your own private interpretation of Scripture and if
you hold to unbiblical ideas like Sola Scriptura, you will think that
what we teach is unscriptural.  But if you read Scripture in the C O N T
E X T of what the Christian church has always taught throughout the
ages, and not merely believe interpretations based on traditions of men,
then you get a different view.

The argument that the Catholic Church turned "satanic" is heavily based
on the accusation that it became corrupt once it was legalized around
311 A.D. by the Edict of Milan.  It is a accused that politics and power
and ambition destroyed the true teaching of the church.

But, Jesse, this is fallacious, because if you read the writings of the
Christians long before the 4th century, you see something that looks
like nothing other than a young Catholic Church.  You see all of the
basics of our faith that we have today.  We haven't changed anything
from the first and second centuries, Jesse.  We haven't corrupted or
abandoned anything.  It's all there, evidence that all this Romish
doctrines existed long before the legalization of Christianity. All
argued from Scripture.

Eric
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Date:         Fri, 6 Nov 1992 06:35:42 EST
From:         "SHELBY A. CROSS" <LIBSAC@EMUVM1.BITNET>
Subject:      Reply-Prayer Request-Theresa

Dear Theresa,

I too  was a music  major in college  ions ago. Unfortunately,  I dropped
out before  finishing. I wasn't  saved then, but  I just want  to encour-
age you  to stay on  the course  that the Lord  has for you.  Remember to
trust in  the Lord and  lean not on your  own understanding. In  all your
ways  acknowledge Him  and He  will direct  your paths.  Theresa this  is
a promise.  God has  given you your  talent to use  for His  glory. There
are many  people who benefit  from beautiful music. Sometimes  music con-
soles a  person when  they are down.  It makes them  happy or  music says
things that  are in  our heart,  but we do  not have  the right  words to
say. I can  go on and on how music  has been a big part of  my life, even
though I did not continue to reach my goal.

When you get  ready to play anytime,  pray, and play always  to the glory
and honor  of God. Give  God your  best all the  time. Ask that  when you
play that  someone will be  ministered to, or that  He will use  you just
as  if you  were witnessing  or ministering  to someone.  Give everything
to God, and He will make much of the little we come with.

It is  times like these that  I wish I could  hear you right now.  I know
and  have confidence  that I  would  be very  pleased. I  just wanted  to
not only  encourage you  but others  to give their  best in  whatever you
undertake in life.

Dear Heavenly Father,

We  thank you  for the  gifts you  have  given all  of us.  We thank  you
you because  every good and  perfect gift comes  from above. Give  us all
the strength  and courage to  face each day. Let  use give to  others the
joy and peace that you have given  us in just knowing you as our Saviour.
Father God  bless Theresa to play  like she has never  played before. Use
her for your  glory and honor that  she herself will be  an instrument of
praise.  In Jesus Name I pray.  Amen and Amen.

P.S.  I played the cello.

Your sister in Christ,

Shelby--
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Date:         Mon, 9 Nov 1992 10:02:39 EST
From:         carol nemec <YA67@FERRIS.BITNET>
Subject:      At the Name of Jesus

At the Name of Jesus....tune of Onward Christian Soldiers


At the name of Jesus every knee shall bow,
Every tongue confess Him King of glory now.
'Tis the Father's pleasure we should call Him Lord,
Who from the beginning was the mighty Word.

Refrain:  At the name of Jesus every knee shall bow.
          Ev'ry tongue confess Him King of glory now.

In your hearts enthrone Him; There let Him subdue
All that is not holy, all that is not true.
Crown Him as your captain in temptation's hour;
Let His will enfold you in its light and pow'r.

Christians, this Lord Jesus shall return again
In His Father's glory, with His angel train;
For all wreaths of empire meet upon His brow,
And our hearts confess Him King of glory now.

Glory then to Jesus, Who, the Prince of light,
To a world in darkness brought the gift of sight;
Praise to God the Father; in the Spirit's love,
Praise we all together, Him who reigns above.
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Date:         Tue, 10 Nov 1992 18:56:53 CDT
From:         Ian Williams <iwilliam@AU.ORACLE.COM>
Subject:      Re: Jealous God
              Zimmerman" at Nov 9, 92 8:28 am

>
>Item Retrieval Assistant, DADS
>Phone: 588-6757
>
>God created people just for the purpose of worshiping him?  Doesn't that
>sound like God is an egomaniac?  (sorry, but it had to be said).
>Plus, if people are here only for the purpose of worshiping God, why
>do people have jobs, families...basically, why do people have *lives*?
>
Eh an egomanac? eh well... God is God, He is the supreme omnipotent
omnipresent omniscience being of the universe...

God is Love, love is nothing if it is not shared.. God wants to share
his love, so he created us.. Worship is nothing other than putting God
in his rightfull perspective - creator and sustainer of the universe.

remember John 3:16 - for God SO loved the world...

We worship him because he created us, and because he died for us, and also
because that is our calling..

Another reason why God is a jealous God is that He is the only true God..Satan
can make himself out to be a god in the forms of idols and other paganistic
religions, but worship of them leads to death... Gods Jealousy if I may
call it that is really PROTECTING US.. Satan seeks worship, but does not
deserve it..
God seeks worship because He is WORTHY!



---------------------+-------------+-----------------------------------------
Ian Williams         |    _--_|\   |      Internet: iwilliam@au.oracle.com
Oracle Systems       |   /      \  |	  Phone	  : +61 8 239 3900
Adelaide, Australia  |   \_.--*_/  |
                     |         v   |
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Date:         Wed, 4 Nov 1992 12:09:53 CST
Comments:     Answering received message
From:         THERESA BLACKWELL <TBLACKWL@USMCP6.BITNET>
Subject:      Said a mouthful...

Lon just said a mouthful in his post titled "Election Results".
God's in control.
Thanks, again Lon, for reminding me of God's awesome power.
"G"

 * <TBLACKWL@USMCP6.BITNET>
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Date:         Wed, 11 Nov 1992 08:59:30 -0500
From:         Eric James Ewanco <ewanco@MLO.DEC.COM>
Subject:      Re: Point to Eric.

Excerpts from christia: 10-Nov-92 Re: Point to Eric. Tom
Brewer@LSUVM.BITNET (538)

> Yo Eric:

> > Still, we need to ensure that we have the rights we need to spread the
> > Gospel unfettered, for if the government prevents us from spreading the
> > Gospel, the Gospel proclamation suffers.

> Think about what you're saying here. Can the government really prevent
> anyone from spreading the Gospel of Almighty God? It's going to go
> wherever God chooses to send it, no further and no shorter. He puts the
> bounds on it. Government can only do what He calls on it to do.
> Remember, God has the kings heart in His control.

> Tom Brewer

Not that anyone can stop God from accomplishing His purposes, but I
think it is evident that governments in today's world _do_ resist the
spreading of the Gospel, and Christians _do_ fight against that, and
sometimes win, and sometimes lose.

It doesn't hurt to try to ensure our rights.  If God wants our rights to
be abridged, what we do will be of no consequence.  Otherwise we might
actually accomplish something.

but of course I reject the notion that God sovereignly controls each and
every event in history.

Eric
From: LIBSAC@EMUVM1.BITNET (SHELBY A. CROSS)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Reply-Prayer Request-Liz
Date: 12 Nov 92 18:11:15 GMT
Organization: Emory University - Atlanta, Georgia, USA
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Greetings Liz,

I am so  pleased to hear how  well Lucien is doing.  Praise the Lord!!!!!

Dear Heavenly Father,

We thank  you for touching  Lucien's body. Father  we pray that  his move
to the  rehabilitation center for  therapy will be  a smooth one.  We ask
you to give Lucien  your love, joy, and peace and that  you take away all
anxiety from  him in  Jesus Name. We  thank you in  advance and  give You
all the praise, honor, and glory in Jesus Name.  Amen.

Your sister in Christ,

Shelby--
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Date:         Wed, 11 Nov 1992 08:36:30 CST
From:         Tom Brewer <NOTTMB@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      FREE WILL?

For starters, let me say right off:  God has a will; man has a will.

The big question seems to be "whose will is first in an order of events?"

From what little bit I can gather from the Bible, I would say anything
good in creation or in man has its origin in the will of God.

Now if a man who was once an enemy of God, whose mind would not submit to
the law of God, who was dead in sin becomes willing toward God, did he make
himself willing?

That man becomes willing because a superior will has changed his own. The will
of God has changed the man's will. God has changed the nature or bent of the
man's will. Before the man's will could only sin; that was his nature. This is
the meaning of bondage. The man's will was free only to sin. His will could
not allow him to do anything pleasing to God. His will did not want to do
anything pleasing to God. His will hated God because God sovereignly controls
every event that the man thinks he has himself willed to come to pass.

Even Jesus Christ, the one who sets men free, had His will controlled by the
will of the Father. Jesus came not to do His own will, but His Father's.

The unregenerate man hates the notion that God sovereignly controls all things.

If God controls all things, that means His will is in control of man's will.
Man hates this because it strips man of any claim to good. It shows man does
not even have the tendency for good. It means that man is indebted to God
for everything. The proud man rejects this sovereign control of Almighty God.
Man does not want to be at the disposal of God. Man does not want God to
control his destiny.

Man wants to be saved at his own time and place of choosing. But if God has
chosen man before the foundation of the world, this means the day of man's
conversion is fixed before the foundation of the world. Man hates that his
own salvation cannot be determined by his own will.

This self-will desire of man is at the heart of antichristian religion and
is found in all the cults.

Much of the above comes from my reading of "God's Will and Man's Will" by
Horatius Bonar.

And finally, Mr. Bonar writes, "Man's dislike at God's sovereignty arises
from his suspicion of God's heart."

Tom Brewer

========================================================================
"The greatest and most ancient Church known to God's people, founded and
 organized by the Father, Son and Holy Spirit at Jerusalem and spread to the
 hearts of believers everywhere, that Church which has the Word of God and
 faith which comes down to the elect after having been announced to men by
 the Prophets and Apostles. For with this Church, because of her divine
 origin, all men must agree ... and it is in her that the elect everywhere
 have maintained the Gospel of Jesus Christ."
    ---St. Thomas, Against Catholicism, c. 1992 A.D.
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Date:         Wed, 11 Nov 1992 11:06:00 EST
From:         MSIMMON1@ITHACA.BITNET
Subject:      Re: RUSH - More Good News

Back on the gay military question, I have to ask - Are gays really that
anxious to put themselves in an environment where they will be ridiculed,
beaten, destroyed, shunned, cursed, and maybe even killed?  The prime rule
of any soldier is that he/she MUST be able to trust their fellow soldiers with
their life, if they can't, the entire mission WILL collapse.  Frankly, gays
will NOT work in the military because they would undermine the entire system,
provide too many complications, and besides - the military can now SELECT who
goes in and not merely accept who comes in, so WHY would they even consider
a gay over a straight man/woman?  MCS-IC

p.s.  I will be going off the list effective today for a while to get caught
back up on my studies - I can't handle 120 new Christia messages a day - it's
simply too many.  Any replies that you want me to read, please send privately.
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
From: jmrg9881@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Jon Reid)
Subject: Re: CHRIST AS A ROLE MODEL.
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 16:25:59 GMT

JLong <JLONG@UA1VM.BITNET> writes:

>Maybe I'm reading something different here but Paul said "follow me as I
>follow Christ".  Because he could fail.  But Jesus never fails.

>Not to put man down but he can fail or might let us down.  But Jesus won't.
>We need to get our eye off of man and look to Christ.

You know, there are a few places where Paul says something like "imitate
me", "imitate the life I lived before you".  It always puzzled me because
it sounded rather arrogant.  I mean, weren't we supposed to follow Jesus?

But Paul writes this to his disciple, Timothy -- he wanted Timothy to
imitate him.  *That's what discipling is.*  Preaching and teaching transmit
information, but _values_ are changed when a life rubs another life.

Modeling is the key to discipling.  It consists of:
 - doing something with the disciple watching
 - explaining things in answer to the disciple's questions
 - watching as the disciple tries it
 - giving feedback
 - gradually withdrawing so that the disciple is doing it without you

These important principles are well-known.  (Read _The Master Plan of
Evangelism_ by Robert Coleman.)  Sadly, they are practiced mainly in
parachurch organizations and by a few exceptional individuals, and are
*not* a standard part of church life... to the church's loss.
-- 
Jon Reid    j-reid@uiuc.edu    GEnie: THE.REIDS
"He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose."
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Fri, 13 Nov 1992 11:30:07 EST
From:         "SHELBY A. CROSS" <LIBSAC@EMUVM1.BITNET>
Subject:      Reply-It's Happened Again-Steve K.

Dear Steve,

Although I have deleted much of these  posts, I feel that we can live to-
gether  without insulting  one  another.  Jesus said  we  would know  His
disciples by their love.  My reply is from the Word:

Ephesians 4:29-5:2 (NIV)

Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is
helpful for  building others  up according  to their  needs, that  it may
benefit those who listen.

And do not grieve  the Holy Spirit of God, with whom  you were sealed for
the day of redemption.

Get rid  of all bitterness, rage  and anger, brawling and  slander, along
with every form of malice.

Be kind and  compassionate to one another, forgiving each  other, just as
in Christ God forgave you.

Be imitators of God, therefore, as  dearly loved children and live a life
of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant
offering and sacrifice to God.

Dear Heavenly Father-Abba Father,

We ask  you to help us  to live up to  your precious Word and  example in
Jesus, Your Son. Forgive  me Father if I have said  anything or done any-
thing to displease  You in any way.  Help me to honor  everyone with your
love that You  have revealed to me  through Your Son Jesus.  Create in us
clean hearts  and renew  right spirits  within us  Father. Let  our light
so shine before men that men will  glorify You in heaven. Let us be doers
of Your  Word and  not just  hearers only.  Have mercy  upon us  Lord. In
Jesus Name we pray.  Amen.

Your sister in Christ,

Shelby--

P.S.  Steve stay  strong, our  prayers  are with  you. You  are daily  in
battle  ---- The  good news  is that  we win  and you're  a winner.  Stay
in the race!!!!  Thanks for being so patient with all of us.
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
From: ksb@santafe.edu
Subject: Before the Foundation of the World
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 92 00:57:12 GMT
Organization: Santa Fe Institute
Reply-To: ksb@santafe.edu

 MNHCC@CUNYVM.BITNET writes:

>That is bizarre.  I am a lifelong
>Catholic (just turned 54) and I have never heard of any such thing.
>Assuming that ksb has reported accurately what the parents said,

Thanks for your response.  Yes, I completely agree with you--what the parents
said is bizarre.  And, yes, I did report their words accurately, although I
believe that their interpretation is just an honest error/misunderstanding of
something they have either read or heard.

>As for a biblical text that specifies that God's knowledge includes
>each and every human being, there is none, nor is there any need for
>one.  God knows everything.  That is enough.  There is no need to
>specify that He knows every individual human being, and every indi-
>vidual armadillo, and every individual petunia.

MNHCC@CUNYVM.BITNET writes:

>That is bizarre.  I am a lifelong
>Catholic (just turned 54) and I have never heard of any such thing.
>Assuming that ksb has reported accurately what the parents said,

Thanks for your response.  Yes, I completely agree with you--what the parents
said is bizarre.  And, yes, I did report their words accurately; although I
believe that their statement/interpretation is just an honest misunderstanding
of something they have either read or heard.  I guess that most of us have
probably been guilty of that at one time or another.

>As for a biblical text that specifies that God's knowledge includes
>each and every human being, there is none, nor is there any need for
>one.  God knows everything.  That is enough.  There is no need to
>specify that He knows every individual human being, and every indi-
>vidual armadillo, and every individual petunia.

Armadillos...hmmm...  :-)  :-)  (only kidding, no disrespect intended)

I agree completely. God is omnipitent, omnipresent and omniscient.

I was disturbed by their statement implying otherwise and posted to
bit.listserv.christia for advice regarding appropriate scriptural references so
I can hopefully, with God's help, help them to understand the truth of the
matter. 

I definitely need to become better acquainted with my Bible, and that will come
only by reading it for a long time on a regular basis.  It has been my
experience that when one is trying to make a point regarding
religious/spiritual matters (...which I don't often do.  I try to be more of a
"listen-and-learn" type.), it's one thing to paraphrase some vague recollection
of the Word of God and quite another to have in mind specific passages of
scripture that address the question or matter.

Thanks very much for the references many of you sent to me or posted.

Kimberly Bodelson
ksb@santafe.edu 

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Date:         Wed, 11 Nov 1992 12:41:00 GMT
From:         Z_STAFF_CL@SOUTHAMPTON-INSTITUTE.AC.UK
Subject:      Prayer Requested - C of E Synod

Today, in fact in a few hours the Church of England Synod will
decide what it is to do about the question of the ordination of
woment to the priesthood.

You must have heard many of the arguements by now.  You may also
know that I have spent a fair proportion of my life so far working
for the final decision to be Yes.

Yet you will also know that I, on the edge of this moment am not sure
what I want todays vote to be.  The legislation before synod is not
clear and not unifying, the church is split and whatever the out come
many will be hurt.  The ground swell of people in the pews want it
to be Yes but some fear the change will make their church nolonger
their church.  There are many women deacons who are caught in the cross
fire believing themselves to be called to be priests and yet not
allowed to have that calling tested by the church.

I am off home to watch the debate with a heavy heart.   Whatever the
outcome,  people will be hurt.  I ask therefore, you all to pray not
for one answer or another but for peace and harmony, joy and healing
and Gods Will to be done whatever happens in the next few hours.

I have the next couple of days off - to be with friends on both sides
who will be hurt if the answer does not go their way.

In Christ, I wish you all a joyful and peaceful weekend.

God Bless

Carol A Long,  Southampton Institute of Higher Education, England
        email     :  Z_STAFF_CL@UK.AC.SOUTHAMPTON-INSTITUTE
DISCLAIMER - merely musings unless otherwise stated.
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