HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: murray@aristotle.ils.nwu.edu (Thomas Murray)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Supertitling
Date: 9 Sep 92 22:14:47 GMT
	<1992Sep9.020719.16782@credence.com> <BuBrDz.n4I@news.udel.edu>
Organization: The Institute for the Learning Sciences, Evanston, IL


I am relatively new to opera (~4 years experience/ background/
listening). The past two years I have been attending Lyric Opera
performances, where they project supertitles.  Up 'til now, I had
always considered them helpful.

However, I do recall a performance without supertitles, a few summers
back: DIE FLEDERMAUS at the Vienna Staatsoper.  It was a magical
experience.  In light of this debate, I tried to remember if I had
trouble "understanding" the opera.  I don't recall that I did.  I read
a synopsis beforehand, and that seemed to be enough.  Even though I
didn't "understand" everything, I got the gist of what was going on.
Everyone else (who understood German) seemed to be enjoying
themselves, and their joy, combinined with the beautiful music, was
all I needed to become equally entranced.  To date, it is still my
operatic fondest memory (next to hearing the trio at the end of DER
ROSENKAVALIER for the first time).

This supertitling thread has inspired to me to collect some more
emprical data.  I think I will try experiencing this season at Lyric
without the "training wheels" of supertitles, and make a decision for
myself.  The first opera is in English (MCTEAGUE), so the true test
won't come until later in the season.

I'll try to remember to post my results.

-tom murray
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: alan@highlite.uucp (Alan McConnell)
Subject: Re: Has anyone collected viola jokes?
Organization: Gotham Communications Research
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 00:39:48 GMT

cerovse@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Corey Cerovsek) writes:

>Another violinist and I are competing for the most impressive
>collection of viola jokes... has anyone compiled a list yet?  If not,
>can anyone with some good ones to share e-mail them to me?

>Thanks!!

>Corey Cerovsek
>cerovse@indiana.edu
. . . . in my agitated defense of the viola a few postings upstream, I
forgot to mention:  In a string quartet, the violinists only get to
play melody and accompaniment, the cellist plays melody and bass, while
ONLY THE VIOLIST gets to play melody(occasionally), bass(during cello
solos), and accompaniment . . . thus once again proving the enormous
superiority of THE VIOLA.
    Also, my upstream spelling of ondes Martenot was corrected by a
kindly British math grad student.
    Also, you young whippersnappers from the Indiana School of Music
shouldn't be wasting your time on viola jokes, you should be practicing
the violin in intensive preparation for the glorious day when you will
have acquired sufficient technique to be able to make the transition
to THE VIOLA(P.S. please forward list to me when complete - in a
plain brown wrapper)
-- 
Alan McConnell             "What wondrous life is this I lead!
Pixel Analysis              Ripe apples drop about my head . ."
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: chem91@Elroy.UH.EDU ("Bill Harrison (713)-743-2789")
Subject: Re: Solti and Karajan (was: Re: Mahler's 5th Symphony by Solti ...)
Reply-To: chem91@Elroy.UH.EDU
Organization: University of Houston
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 22:07:26 GMT

In article <92254.134458RHASKINS@UMAB.BITNET>, 
Robert Haskins <RHASKINS@UMAB.BITNET> writes:
>In a recent post, Bill Harrison writes disparagingly of the second
>recording by Karajan and the Berlin of Shostakovich's Tenth.  I thought
>I'd posted a remark on this earlier, and it's not appeared, so here it
>is again.  I think this recording is superb.  What's wrong with it?
>Brooding, expressive, great playing.
>
>Anxious in Baltimore.

The *playing* of the BPO certainly is great, probably the best ever DSCH 
put on disk. However, IMHO, Karajan is/was more concerned with beautiful
sound, rather than a profound understanding of the music (all highly
subjective there, sorry). His earlier recording is regarded as much 
better, but I haven't heard it, unfortunately. It's available on a mid-price
disk.

It's like Herbie's (several) later Beethoven cycles compared to his early
Beethoven; the later ones are beautiful, but bland, and in a market where there
are a couple of dozen competitors, just not quite good enough. 

All this is of course is my personal opinion...

Bill

ps for other *great* Shostakovich interpretations try the Haitink 15th or the
live Mravrinsly 8th.

+ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\               /~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Bill Harrison,            \             /       "Be as radical as... |
| University of Houston, TX  >-----------<         reality itself"     |
| CHEM91@JETSON.BITNET      /             \                V. I. Lenin |
+ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~/               \~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
From: beh@hal.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Bruce Howells)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re:voice training and sinus problems
Date: 15 Sep 92 21:48:00 GMT
Distribution: rec
Organization: Internet access via the Free Software Foundation


Hm.. I suspect that the problems which you are experiencing have little to
do with your sinuses perse, but maybe more to do with the drainage (read
phlegm).

Secondarily, there is no such thing as a "break" but rather a coordination
problem between registers.

Thirdly, to the person who said that women don't understand, I have but one
thing to say to you:  bullspit.  I have been studying voice for 14 years,
and have a Doctorate from the UMich in voice performance, and I can tell
you, I had plenty of problems coordinating my registers, and at times,
still have problems.  For us, we don't have a clear "pop" on the top as you
do (well, some women do) but rather a whole mid area which is a mix of head
and chest voices.  It's not just chest and falsetto -- or, rather it is,
but there's a whole section in my voice, from middle c to an octave and
fifth above that, in which I must effectively blend the two registers in
varying amounts to get a good tone.  Before I had figured out how to do it
consistently, I had what my voice teachers called a "donut voice" -- nice
and round, with a hole in the middle.

I do, however, think that after awhile, everyone should try to study with
someone of his/her voice type.  More important than that, however, is the
willingness to learn, trust in the teacher (if they are ethical and good)
and a pair of good ears on the teacher along with the teacher knowing good
vocal technique and health.  With those things, any teacher/student
combinationwill work, and the voice should progress.

Just my $.02 worth.. but then, I've taught voice for the past 9 years as
well..

--Nancy Howells
beh@gnu.ai.mit.edu through the good graces of my husband.
From: diarmuid@uniwa.uwa.edu.au (Diarmuid Pigott)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Wagner Weekend
Date: 9 Sep 1992 11:09:06 +0800
Organization: The University of Westrn Australia
NNTP-Posting-Host: uniwa.uwa.edu.au

sec@otter.hpl.hp.com (Simon Crouch) writes:
: I think it's about time we had another "Let's rave about Wagner string".
: Or perhaps a "Wagner Anonymous" string....Hello, my name's Simon and
: I'm a Wagner addict......

Yes. Why the [insert favourite oath here] won't anyone record Wagner's 
Symphony? 

I have a Saga recording from the 60's that shows the work's quality, but
even there it is a filler to Bruckner's 4th.
From: douglas@rhi.hi.is (Douglas Brotchie)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Haydn's "The Seasons"
Summary: Are there any conventional cuts in this oratorio ?
Date: 12 Sep 92 14:59:11 GMT

A local choral society here is planning on presenting Haydn's oratorio
"The Seasons" during the autumn season.

The whole work appears to last for about 2 hrs. 10 minutes, and has something
of a sameness.

Does anyone know of any recognized cuts which are made in performances
of this work ?

Douglas
in Iceland
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: steve@fid.morgan.com (Steve Apter)
Subject: Re: Martinon's EMI Ravel
Organization: Morgan Stanley & Co., New York, NY
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 18:27:48 GMT

In article <CB.92Sep15114929@tamarack13.timbuk> cb@tamarack13.timbuk (Chris Brewster) writes:
>Steve Apter writes:
>
>   Also recently deleted, Martinon's recordings of
>   _Symphonie Fantastique_ and _Lelio_, on EMI.
>
>That's regrettable--it's my favorite version.  Also try to hear his
>version of L'Enfance du Christ (also my favorite version--listen to the
>"farewell" section or whatever that part is called).  It used to be on
>Nonesuch and was a reissue from maybe Erato.
>
>Chris Brewster
>cb@cray.com

Yes, it is painful to see one's favorite recordings get notched and
stacked, but it's getting easier to predict which new issues will
be dropped from the catalog.  So if you're willing to assume some
risk, pass `em by and wait `til they turn up for half-price or less.

E.g., I doubt that EMI's Beecham series will stick around for more
than another year.  The larger companies go for a big inital hit
on vanity items like these, then move to clear out inventory.
Consider DG's Dokumente series, EMI's Klemperer recordings, the
innumerable Furtwangler issues from DG, EMI, &c., not to mention
the pirates from Nuova Era, ASDisk, the de Sabata collection, &c.
I recently acquired the Mengelberg Beethoven disks on Philips for
a couple of bucks each.  It's getting to the point where a fairly
decent library of historical recordings can be constructed entirely
out of cut-outs.
From: mgresham@dscatl.UUCP (Mark Gresham)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: voice training and sinus conditions
Date: 11 Sep 92 02:08:56 GMT
Reply-To: mgresham@dscatl.UUCP (Mark Gresham)
Followup-To: rec.music.classical
Organization: Digital Systems Co,  Atlanta, Ga

In article <1992Sep8.200108.24418@cs.ucla.edu> gds@oahu.cs.ucla.edu (Greg Skinner) writes:
>I've been working with a voice teacher for the last few months, mostly
>on eliminating my voice break.  She thinks one problem I am having
>with my progress is that I may have a deviated septum, or some other
>sinus condition that has affected my ability to get a lot of resonance
>in my head voice.

Did she look up your nose or something?  What makes her come to
the conclusion of a deviated septum?  As for a sinus condition or
etc. thingys like it, you'd probably have had reason to know that
before taking lessons, for sure.

>She recommended that I see an ENT (ear, nose, and
>throat) specialist about it.  (In general, she recommends annual ENT
>exams for all of her students.)

I wonder if she sends all her students to the same ENT specialist.
IF she has suggested one, get a different one's opinion.

>I was wondering if any other vocalists out there have encountered this
>problem, either themselves or in their students, and what they did to
>counter this problem.

If you are talking about your "break" (and "elmininating" it (???))
the most common cause of lack of progress is a stressful
technique.  I had problems with that too...found the problem was
the teacher.  Other people put me on the right track; solved the
problem, one that was not medical at all.  I would be VERY
suspicious when a teacher blames lack of vocal progress
on a medical condition like a deviated septum (without
looking up your nose.:-)).


Cheers,

--Mark Gresham

dscatl!mgresham@gatech.edu

==========================
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: cb@tamarack13.timbuk (Chris Brewster)
Subject: Re: Mahler #10 & Cooke
In-reply-to: ca572@cleveland.Freenet.Edu's message of 11 Sep 1992 00:08:17 GMT
Organization: pubs
Date: 11 Sep 92 09:46:33 CDT


I haven't heard Rattle's version of Mahler 10 but was interested that he
did some further revisions on Cooke's version.  I wonder if he improved
some of the thin parts that Mark Stackpole identifies.  And have there
been revisions (to Cooke's version) in addition to Rattle's?

Chris Brewster
cb@cray.com
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: altizer@figaro (Robert Altizer)
Subject: Learning the lute
Reply-To: altizer@chdasic.sps.mot.com
Organization: Motorola SPS
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1992 00:17:10 GMT

I'm one-fouth of a madrigal quartet {"Canterbury Transfer"} in which the
singers will be augmenting pieces from time to time with instrumental work,
either accompaniments or embellishments.  As a part-time guitar player, I
was nominated to become the lute player (lutist?  looter?)  >> HELP!!

Does anyone know or have an opinion on the following:

1) Where to get a lute and what to pay for it?

2) How to learn basic skills? (There don't seem to be any study-at-home
   videotapes like there are for rock 'n' roll guitar.)

3) How long should I expect to study/practice before daring to play in 
   front of an audience?  (E.g., how long does it take to get good?)

Looking forward to having the world's knowledge (and opinions) poured forth
on my problem, I remain ...

Your humble servant,
Robert-the-Bass
---
#----------------------------------------------------------------------#
#      Robert Altizer - Motorola ASIC Software Quality Assurance       #
#  1300 North Alma School Road, M/S CH240, Chandler AZ 85224-8517 USA  #
#             Voice: (602) 821-4249 -- FAX: (602) 821-4167             #
# Internet: altizer@chdasic.sps.mot.com -- X.400: R10908@email.mot.com #
#----------------------------------------------------------------------#
#   Nature has neither kernel nor shell, she is everything at once.    #
#                                   -- Goethe                          #
#----------------------------------------------------------------------#
From: alves@calvin.usc.edu (William Alves)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Shenkarian analysis
Date: 14 Sep 1992 16:46:16 -0700
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
Distribution: rec
NNTP-Posting-Host: calvin.usc.edu

Of course Schenkerian analysis doesn't work well for some Wagner, nor,
despite the claims of some of his followers will it work for Josquin
or Schoenberg or a North Indian sitar performance, for that matter. Then
again, Forte serial analysis won't work well for Mozart either. I think
it's generally accepted that analysis methods must reflect the general
intentions and expectations of the compositional style. This principle
was obscured (and still is by some) by the late-romantic desire to find
universal systems to the point of rejecting the validity of those things
that did not fit into those systems. I have even seen Schenkerian analysis
applied to African drumming! (Not very successfully, for those of you
who had to ask.)

Nor should this obscure the value of Schenkerian analysis on a specific
(and important) repertory of European art music, i.e. roughly Haydn to
Brahms. The general aesthetic of that time depended heavily on the 
structural hierarchies of tonality and modulation, phrase groupings
and the hierarchy of pitches in a melody. Schenker found a way of beau-
tifully demonstrating those relationships in the big picture.

That said, I'm not particularly a fan of orthodox Schekerianism either.
I think that it is an ultimately reductionist method that unfairly 
shifts attention away from the details which may ultimately be just as
important as the large-scale structure to the composer and listener.
Also, a lot of the insights of a Schenkerian analysis can be found in
other (conventional) methods of analysis.

Bill Alves
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: dbarker@spang.Camosun.BC.CA (Deryk Barker)
Subject: Vaughan Williams (was Re: Sibelius 2nd)
Organization: Camosun College, Victoria BC, Canada
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 18:29:00 GMT

In article <CB.92Sep9115920@tamarack13.timbuk> cb@tamarack13.timbuk (Chris Brewster) writes:
[....]
>An analogy might be drawn to Vaughan Williams.  *His* second, the Sea
>Symphony, has much good material that's clearly his style, but much else
>that's borrowed from Elgar, conveying a certain expectable, standard
>feeling for that period.  Then RVW finds his voice (or rather expels
>Elgar's).  Just listen to *his* next four symphonies; this is the real
>thing.

The Sea Symphony is his first, the London Symphony is the second. I
can't say I hear any echoes of Elgar in the SS, rather echoes of the
British oratorio tradition (Stanford, Parry etc). I'd agree that he
found a more individual voice in the London Symphony though.

Deryk Barker, Computer Science Dept., Camosun College, Victoria B.C.

Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: tony@cns.nyu.edu (Tony Movshon)
Subject: Re: Mahler 6 (was Re: Du Pre recital)
Reply-To: tony@cns.nyu.edu
Organization: New York University
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 19:24:57 GMT

In article 6628@CSD-NewsHost.Stanford.EDU, smith@CS.Stanford.EDU (Jeremy Smith) writes:
> In article <1992Sep13.195113.17582@cmcl2.nyu.edu>, tony@cns.nyu.edu (Tony Movshon) writes:
> |> Three very recommendable Mahler 6's are ...

> WHAT!?!? No BERSTEIN???

I'm a great admirer of Bernstein, and his big black Mahler box was my first
experience of the symphonies. However, for my taste the emotional intensity
of the 6th is such that Bernstein's approach just puts it over the top. For
me, a little restraint is needed, and Abbado provides it.

---
					Tony Movshon

Internet:  movshon@nyu.edu

US Mail:   Howard Hughes Medical Institute
	   Center for Neural Science
	   New York University
	   4 Washington Place, room 809
	   New York, NY 10003

Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: tribioli@arcetri.astro.it (Francesco Tribioli)
Subject: Re: Learning the lute
Organization: Osservatorio di Arcetri
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 09:54:16 GMT

In article <1992Sep14.152113.16650@cbnewse.cb.att.com>, chenl@cbnewse.cb.att.com (julian.l.chen) writes:
|> I don't believe there is anything like that available. Lute is a
|> professional instrument.
|> 
|> >3) How long should I expect to study/practice before daring to play in 
|> >   front of an audience?  (E.g., how long does it take to get good?)
|> >
|> 
|> Don't know but I bet it will be a long while. But if you are already a
|> very good guitarist, it may help somehow. Ask Richard Brune about a few
|> names of established lutenists and ask them may be your best staring
|> point.
|> 

Hi, I am a former guitarist, now playing the lute. I think you need at least 
two or three years if you are a good guitarist. The lute technique is quite
different from the guitar one, especially for the right hand. You need to
cut your nails because the hand postition is completely different: fingers
strike the strings being almost parallel to the string itself while on the 
guitar they are perpendicular. The left hand, too, need a different technique.
Lute strings are very light so you need very little pressure to stop them.
Then the fingering is quite different. Last you need to learn reading in
tabulature, almost all lute music is written in this way. Lute is a difficult
instrument. It is very sensible to very slight difference in positions of the
hands so is quite difficult to get it to sound well. Then it is not 
morphologically standard: there are different kind of instruments (approximately
6 families) and every instrument of the same family is different from the 
others. Well I think that if you are not planning to switch to lute playing is
better for you to decline the job. :-) Good bye,

							Francesco

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Francesco Tribioli				News and system manager
Osservatorio Astrofisico di Arcetri		Firenze - ITALY
Internet tribioli@arcetri.astro.it
DECNET 38954::tribioli
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: jseboldt@pnet51.orb.mn.org (John Seboldt)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: VOCAL Wedding music suggestions?
Date: 7 Sep 92 16:05:01 GMT
Organization: People-Net [pnet51], Minneapolis, MN.

givler@bermuda.cbm.commodore.com (Greg Givler) writes:
>In article <1992Aug28.171027.8556@vax.oxford.ac.uk> wilcox@vax.oxford.ac.uk writes:
>>In article <1992Aug24.165830.29702@newsgate.sps.mot.com>, altizer@figaro (Robert Altizer) writes:
>>> After all the instrumental music recommendations, how about some for vocal music
>>> for a wedding?  (I appear as the singer.)  What I'd like to see are your picks for:
>>> 
>>>   1) Male solo (baritone or bass-baritone)
>>>   2) Female solo (lyric soprano)
>>>   3) Duet (above voices)
>>> 
>>

Duet:  Bach, "Der Herr segne euch" (decent translation, "May God Smile On
You"), from "Wedding Canatata", available in leaflet from C.F. Peters!

: John Seboldt...Minneapolis, MN...As a ham, K0JD...as a human,       :
: right-brained yet right-handed...as a musician, techie yet creative :
:   UUCP: {crash, tcnet, petrus, quest}!orbit!pnet51!jseboldt         :
:   ARPA: crash!orbit!pnet51!jseboldt@nosc.mil                        :
:   INET: jseboldt@pnet51.orb.mn.org                                  :
From: conrad@brahms.udel.edu (Jon Conrad)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Korngold
Date: 9 Sep 92 15:46:02 GMT
Organization: University of Delaware

In article <CB.92Sep8124257@tamarack13.timbuk> cb@tamarack13.timbuk (Chris Brewster) writes:

>Bob Kosovsky writes:

>   I've never seen his last film, MAGIC FIRE (1956) - a bio 
>   about Wagner...

>I didn't know there was such a film.  Has anyone seen it?

It's been many many years.  I was old enough to know some Wagner (so
must have been high school sophomore or so), but young enough that I
probably didn't notice any pure-Hollywood corniness, such as I'm sure it
had.

I do remember that (dating from the time of the "code") it was very
careful to avoid the details of the Cosima/adultery/kids entanglements.
There was a fair amount of music played, including a 5-minute medley
from the RING when it finally got to the stage.  As I remember it ends
with Liszt playing through the score of PARSIFAL at the piano (no, not
all of it :-) he strums a few evocative chords and we fade out), but
maybe I remember wrong.

It would be fun to see it again, but I'd be prepared for it to be at
least partially "a hoot."

Jon Alan Conrad
From: dbarker@spang.Camosun.BC.CA (Deryk Barker)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Of Mice and Schenker
Date: 14 Sep 92 22:57:27 GMT
Organization: Camosun College, Victoria BC, Canada

In article <1992Sep14.104333.54689@qut.edu.au> bellmann@qut.edu.au writes:
[....]
>religion. Am I being too biased here? Can anyone offer some wisdom in the sense
>of suggesting something of any value that could be learned from this matter?

Yes. You can't fool *all* the people *all* the time.... :-)

Deryk Barker, Computer Science Dept., Camosun College, Victoria B.C.
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Date: Tuesday, 15 Sep 1992 08:45:14 CDT
From: <U58402@uicvm.uic.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject:    OPERA: Ghosts of Versailles


I saw the PBS broadcast of "The Ghosts of Versailles" last night. It was
very highly entertaining, even with subtitles :@) High points (for me)
included Teresa Stratas' "I saw a bird in a golden cage" aria in the
first act, and Marilyn Horne hamming it up as a Turkish fortune telling
diva. (I think she may have been on Garrison Keillor's show one too many
times :@)

I was wondering if anyone could help me out with some questions:

1. What else would you recommend by Teresa Stratas? I know she has a
couple of albums of Kurt Weill songs, but I am generally leery of
classically trained singers performing what are, to my mind, more pop
oriented material.

2. Are there plans for a recording of TGOV anytime soon?

Wilbur Pan
(aka u58402@uicvm.uic.edu
 at the ever so friendly and personal univ. of ill. at chicago)


Newsgroups: rec.music.classical