From: query@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Samuel Green)
Subject: Re: Walking her to the car.
Organization: Northwestern University, Evanston Illinois.
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 21:55:10 GMT

In article <1992Aug14.093734.3457@jarvis.csri.toronto.edu> flaps@dgp.toronto.edu (Alan J Rosenthal) writes:
>query@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Samuel Green) writes:
>>I was told by a 'liberated' woman that she thought that it was macho bullshit
>>for me to offer to escort her.  She made it home safely that night, but, since
>>she was so 'liberated', she went out many other times.  Eventually, someone
>>saw her as a victim, and she was mugged and raped.  I don't think being
>>'liberated' is a very good reason for wanting to go out alone.


>
>Permit me to explain, then.  Rape is about control.  Some aspects of feminism
>are about control.  Women are being told to live in fear and never go out
>alone.  They are being told this by rapists, in the sense that they know that
>there are rapists out there and that they may get attacked if they go out alone
>at night.  But unfortunately they are also being told this by nicer people who
>are concerned for their welfare and are trying to protect them against rape.
>Well this pisses some women off. 

	This may seem off the point, but...
	I have sex, most people do.  When I have sex, for safetys sake, I
wear a condom.  Hopefully most people do now adays.  I *hate* condoms, and
I cannot feel much, but I am willing to wear them, because they may save my
life.  How does this correlate?
	Women (and men) like to be able to go out [compare this to having
sex, another activity that people like to do].  When they go out, they
should bring along a friend for protection [basically the same as bringing
along a condom when having sex].  Many women hate the idea of needing an
escort [Hey, with a condom, you cant feel much...] but should do so, since
it could save their life.  
	Now, as far as it goes, yes, there is a controll issue, BUT, you
must remember, that if you get attacked and killed, or beaten or raped, or
robbed, YOU WERE NOT IN CONTROLL.  From what I have seen, many rapists take
the 'liberated' woman to be someone who is doubting the rapists controll,
and, since rape is a controll issue as much as anytrhing else, the rapists
will attack said lone woman.  Oh, yeah, she is in controll now... Either
defending herself, or, if not defending herself, trying to just survive the
incident.  If you are under attack, or if your survival is immediately
threatened, YOU ARE NOT IN CONTROLL OF THE SITUATION.  I think even the
most 'liberated' person would agree with that.

 Rightfully so.  If we (men) can go out on the
>street at night alone, why can't they?  It is truly discriminatory.  It has an
>effect not only on one's social life, but it also makes it difficult to take
>certain jobs, especially if you can't afford a car, and so on -- it affects all
>walks of life.  So some women are insisting that they have the right to go out
>alone at night, to take control of that aspect of their lives.  This is
>praiseworthy, if they can do it.  It's not always safe, but many things are not
>safe.  And it is an important thing affecting their lives.
>
	I think that men are inviting a risk if they go out alone, not just
women.  I think that saying "Hey!  I have just as much right to go outside
at night as a man does!" is indeed a noble sentiment, BUT, if a woman said
"I have just as much right to go out alone as a man does, but I have more
of a risk of being attacked than a man does" I think is not only true, but
more intelligent.  Hey, it is sad but true that in most areas, a womans
risk of attack is MUCH higher than a mans.  And, insome areas (like mine) a
mans risk is higher.  Hey, I have as much a right as a woman does to go out
alone...  But I also run a higher risk around here.  It goes both ways.

>>Since that has happened, I now usually INSIST on escorting a woman to where
>>she needs to go.  If she refuses, I will usually follow her from a distance of
>>about a block, and then run up to her if it seems like something may happen.
>>Maybe thats wrong, if theyt said I should not go, but, hell, I would rather be
>>stubborn and called a jerk or worse, than let someone get attacked.
>
>This is a very tough judgement call.  I don't have any advice to contribute --
>hopefully some of the women on the group will answer this point (if a certain
>man hasn't caused them all to lose interest in this group yet).
>
	I too would appreciate an answer, because the women I "escort" in
this manner usually don't realize I have done it, and I dont tell them.


>However, don't be surprised if women react quite negatively to your doing
>this.  They are trying to take control of their lives, and you are saying to
>them, no, a man must be involved in your walking at night, either as rapist or
>as benevolent protector.  It is going to be perceived as an invasive thing.
>
	Not quite... I am saying to them that SOMEONE, not just a man,
should escort them.  I offer for several reasons.  I am reasonably fit, and
I have had training in fighting, and also that 2 makes a harder target (in
most cases) than 1.  I don't think a man has to be involved in anything, it
is just that in most cases, it seems that a man and a woman together, or 2
men, would be much more likely to deterr the potential rapist than 2 women
together.  After all, rape is partially controll, so:  2 women under
'controll' rather than 1 would be quite the bonanza to the rapist, IMO.


>One partial solution to this is to have women escort women, thus proving that
>men do not have to be involved.  This is anti-rape because rapists are in
>effect saying that they do.

	Given the item I discussed above, I would only partially agree with
this.  Hey, it is all well and good to say that "I am going to do what I
want to, and no matter how hard you try to make it dangerous for me, I will
continue to do my thing" but, after all is said and done, the only
'controll' you get from going out alone or into a high risk situation, is
controll of whether you will submit, fight back, or run like hell.  Not
much of a group of options, for someone in 'controll.
	Sam