HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.deaf-l
Date:         Tue, 10 Nov 1992 23:28:42 -0500
From:         Seth Gordon <sethg@SILVER.LCS.MIT.EDU>
Subject:      hearie anxiety
              4 Nov 1992 15:43:52 -0700 <9211042246.AA23972@silver.lcs.mit.edu>

    Bryce says:
    I am curious as to why so many hearing people who want to associate
    with deaf people seem to feel a need to apologize for hearing, or
    seem to expect rejection because of their ability to hear.

Speaking only for myself...

There seems to be a lot of disagreement among Deaf people about
what relationships hearing people should have--and what we should
*not* have--with Deaf people.  Some Deaf people, I'm told, are
even uncomfortable about hearing people learning ASL.

So whenever I meet a new group of Deaf people, I'm a bit anxious,
because I can't be sure how they'll respond.

"Do I dare
 Disturb the universe?"
 --T. S. Elliot
--
seth gordon ... <sethg@silver.lcs.mit.edu>   ... .sig under construction;
mit bs '91  ... learning ctr 4 deaf children ... pardon the inconvenience
From: 31babik@gw.wmich.edu
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.deaf-l
Subject: Re: Question from a hearie...
Date: 23 Nov 92 20:41:16 EST
Organization: Western Michigan University

In article <DEAF-L%92112003384281@SIUCVMB.BITNET>, Bosco Keown <keown@VNET.IBM.COM> writes:

> I hate it when people slow down in a contrived fashion and
> grossly exaggerate their lip movements. It's like talking to
> an asphyxiating trout. :-)
> 

Hahahahahahahahahaha!  I know exactly what you're talking about, but 
I never thought to explain it like that!  That gave me a good laugh!


-----------------------------------------------------------------------
          (__)		  Lisamarie Gemma Babik				
          (oo)								
   /-------\/ 	          31babik@gw.wmich.edu				
  / |     ||  								
 *  ||w---||  		When cows laugh really hard,			
    ^^    ^^  	       does milk come out their nose?			
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

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Date:         Wed, 18 Nov 1992 09:25:00 EST
From:         PS308LEC@ITHACA.BITNET
Subject:      Re: 600 minutes??????

Allison,
Again, I am the one who had first mentioned the comment about "Gally" and I
was not offended....it was simply a curious question about why it is used
and prefered. The responses I got made it clear that it does not offend those
who choose to use it and so I leave it at that. It did not offend me at all
as I am hearing....all I was wondering was, again, why the term is used as
it seems as if it might offend some who go there and want to go to "Gallaudet"
rather than "Gallyurdeaf". Anyway, enough said! It really doesn't offend me
though and if you would like to use it, please don't hesitate on my behalf.
I am sorry if I got some of you confused with my first comment way back when
but again it was just a comment and not an attack. Have a Good Day!
-Laura (PS308LEC@Ithaca)
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.deaf-l
Date:         Sat, 21 Nov 1992 04:10:05 -0500
From:         Seth Gordon <sethg@SILVER.LCS.MIT.EDU>
Subject:      Re: 60 mins story

fak9957@ritvax.isc.rit.edu writes:
>
>5.  Look, as long as there are broken bones, doctors will seek to fix them.
>    As long as there are blind eyes, doctors will seek to fix them. As long
>    as there are diseases, doctors will seek to wipe them out.  And so it
>    goes with ears that are deaf....

After wading through a hundred DEAF-L postings, I went out to see a
student production of Eugene Ionesco's play, "Rhinoceros."  One
particular dialogue from Act II reminded me of the debate here:

    BERENGER.  You shouldn't reject medical advice.

    JEAN.  Doctors invent illnesses that don't exist.

    BERENGER.  They do it in good faith--just for the pleasure of looking
    after people.

    JEAN.  They invent illnesses, they invent them, I tell you.

    BERENGER.  Perhaps they do--but after they invent them, they cure them.

I've said it before on this list, and I'll say it again (old-timers
don't have to read the rest of this paragraph :-): the definition of
"broken" is part biological and part *cultural*.  A century or so ago,
left-handedness was considered a disorders, and teachers tried very
hard to make their lefty students right-handed.  They were just as
certain of the natural virtue of right-handedness as most people today
are sure of the benefits of being hearing.  But today, how many
doctors are trying to "cure" left-handedness?
--
seth gordon ... <sethg@silver.lcs.mit.edu>   ... .sig under construction;
mit bs '91  ... learning ctr 4 deaf children ... pardon the inconvenience
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.deaf-l
Date:         Wed, 11 Nov 1992 12:32:56 GMT
From:         Bosco Keown <keown@VNET.IBM.COM>
Subject:      personal attack

>Easy here.  Issues are one thing, but this was a bit of a personal attack.
>In debate, you fight the ideas, not the person.  I may support what you say,
>but the way you say it gets us nowhere.

Thanks, Keith. It's nice to know there are some level-headed people
on the other side of the fence, unlike Marvin and Stephen who taint
and ruin their otherwise interesting arguments with insensitive comments.

I stick to my views, and I am *not* going to let a few personal attacks
by certain people force me to cancel my subscription to DEAF-L. Insults
go straight to the bottomless pit of /dev/null.

Bosco.

Bosco Keown,
CICS/6000 Development,         | VNET     : KEOWN at WINVMC
IBM UK Laboratories, Ltd.,     | IBMIPNET : keown@harpo.hursley.ibm.com
Hursley Park,                  | Internet : keown@vnet.ibm.com
Winchester, England.           | BITNET   : KEOWN at VNET
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 11:55:56 EST
From: Dave Jeffery <JI8@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.script-l
Subject:    Script to WP 5.1

Is there a utility available to convert SCRIPT documents to WP 5.1,
retaining most of the formatting information?

Thank you for any help or advice.
----
 Dave Jeffery           JI8@psuvm.psu.edu
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.dipl-l
Date:         Wed, 18 Nov 1992 12:43:15 -0500
Reply-To:     David C Kovar <kovar@WORLD.STD.COM>
From:         David C Kovar <kovar@WORLD.STD.COM>
Subject:      The new judge era

>	I would support an informal limit of 2-3 games, and will try
>to observe that myself, once the games I am currently playing in reach
>their conclusions.

  This seems quite reasonable.

>	Regarding Danny Loeb's suggestions:  if too much press
>communication is a problem, perhaps players in non-gunboat games could
>communicate privately, without using Judge?

  Personally, I really prefer to communicate through the judge, since
it tags everything neatly for record keeping and minimizing my
confusion.

>  I agree with the entry
> fee suggestion, and with the call for control of game entry by GM's.

  While this is a good idea in theory, I think it would be a bad
idea in practice. I explored the idea for an Empire tourney and
dismissed it. There are two major problems:

	1) You would be running a game for profit. The NSFNET (part
	   of the Internet) does not allow commercial use of their
	   segments. I suspect you'd get away with it, but technically
	   you'd be in violation.
	2) More importantly, it would increase the management hassle
	   100 fold. If someone missed a a move, for any reason, and
	   went CD, allowing someone else to take over the country,
	   they'd want their entry fee back. Or someone else would ask
	   "why does so and so deserve all the money? I'll set up
	   my own judge and charge $4 less and make some money." It
	   would also attract more attention to a service that might
	   disturb the owners of the machine.


>I would like to point out that with judicious use of nolist and
>control of the dedication requirements, a GM can effectively control
>who enters his game to a large extent, as I did with the recent
>creation of the high-dedication game Lion.  I think in general GM's
>ought to utilize the dedication flag, as I really worry about players
>who have < -200 dedication rating.  Even making a weak hurdle of -10
>pointss in Cheetah gave me seven players who stuck with the game.

  I agree with this. However, I've been burned by something. I've been
very dedicated to the games I'm in and I have a dedication of about -180.
One -100 was due to a Youngstown game I got in early on, realized it
was a mistake, and got out of, but not in time. The other -100 I have
no idea where it came from.

>	Hopefully, somebody else with computer expertise (I do math,
>not CS) will be willing to set up a Judge.  Of course, getting one's
>sponsoring organization to be willing to accept the headaches
>associated with a Judge might be quite a trick.

  I have volunteered to run one if someone can get a machine. Since
I pay an hourly rate to get onto the Internet, I'm going to be
doing this at a loss, financially. I've also offered to maintain
the "official" version of the judge software.

-David
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.dipl-l
Date:         Mon, 23 Nov 1992 13:27:48 EST
Reply-To:     Rick Desper <desper@MATH.RUTGERS.EDU>
From:         Rick Desper <desper@MATH.RUTGERS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Two variants being offered on new judge

What I mean is that Tiger is a not gunboat.  If it were a gunboat
game, no partial would be allowed.  My confusing sentences following
are my explanation of why I think that Gunboat Youngstown has some
flaws, which I am trying to avoid with the creation of a non-gunboat
game.
Sorry if that was confusing.
					Rick
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.dipl-l
Date:         Mon, 23 Nov 1992 12:47:45 EST
Reply-To:     Rick Desper <desper@MATH.RUTGERS.EDU>
From:         Rick Desper <desper@MATH.RUTGERS.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Question From bstaker

The way Judge deals with the Suez effectively makes the Youngstown map
non-planar.  It is considered a sea province, which borders the other
sea provinces of Eastern Med and Red Sea.  It borders both coasts of
Egypt, and neither coast of Jordan.  However, an army may move
directly from Jordan to Egypt, and a fleet in Egypt (nc) may move to
Jordan (nc) while a fleet in Egypt (ec) may move to Jordan (wc).
If you think about this for a while, it becomes clear that the Suez is
ridiculous.  I think things would be better if Egypt did not border
Jordan at all, which could then border the Suez.  If anybody wants to
change the Judge code, I would suggest this revision.
					Rick
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.dipl-l
From: hirai@cc.swarthmore.edu (Eiji Hirai)
Subject: Re: FLASH***** Ken announces demise of judge
Organization: Information Services, Swarthmore College, Swarthmore, PA, USA
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 07:43:27 GMT

: I only got one tee-shirt and
: four postcards from players (three of the postcards came from John
: O'Regan)

Oh my!  When I sent my t-shirt, I thought I was one in a big line of people
who sent at least *something* to Ken for his fine efforts.  Oh well. :-(

I had a lot of fun with the judge and I'll remember the good times and the
bad times I had with it.  Thank you Ken for the fun and memories.

At least a lot of people will recognize you when you say "Hi, I'm Ken
Lowe."  "Whoa, you mean Ken Lowe of the Judge fame?  I remember way back
when I used to play on that.  Those were the good old days."

close(era);
printf("Thanks Ken.\n");
ken ++;
exit(0);

--
hirai@cc.swarthmore.edu (Eiji Hirai)    :     :    :   :  : :: ::: :::: :::::
Unix Geek for Swarthmore College        :     :    :   :  : :: ::: :::: :::::
Information Services, Swarthmore, PA, US.       Copyright 1992 by Eiji Hirai.
I don't speak for Swarthmore College.                    All Rights Reserved.
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.dipl-l
Date:         Mon, 23 Nov 1992 13:35:32 EST
Reply-To:     Rick Desper <desper@MATH.RUTGERS.EDU>
From:         Rick Desper <desper@MATH.RUTGERS.EDU>
Subject:      What I would suggest is...

I suggest changing the Youngstown map so that it is no longer the case
that Off Board D boards Off Board F, and also make Off Board E
non-adjacent to Off Board G.  This adjacencies are ridiculous:  they
imply some sort of airplane service or bizarre long tunnels under
Africa, since they create a non-planar configuration in the off-board
land.

Since the removal of these adjacencies will make OBE and OBF rather
isolated, I would also suggest making them now adjacent.  Apparently
now they are separated bye the infinitely long province of Fezzan.

I guess making this change ought to be accompanied by a change in the
file youngstown.ps.  This map change ought to be not-so-hard, since
there would be just a little text revision.

				Rick
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Organization: Universitat Autonoma de Barcelona
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Date:         Wed, 18 Nov 1992 09:20:19 GMT+0100
Reply-To:     IMEF2@EBCCUAB1.BITNET
From:         IMEF2@EBCCUAB1.BITNET
Subject:      Thanks Ken: an idea!?

        Hello everybody,

        I fell really sad to know that Ken has become collapsed of job
and that he is going to stop the judge in u.washington.edu. I joined the
judge just this year and I am still in my first game. Hopefully, it may
be terminated easely as Ken says he is going to allow the termination
of every game in course.

        However, I understand perfectely the reasons of Ken. Even if
nothing goes wrong, managing a computer, program or net, is always a
hard work (I know it by self experience). Moreover, if the program is
running up to 600 games at the same time (is that right?).

        I would like to suggest something in order to avoid further
collapsing of judges and judges managers. This is something I already
suggested to Ken sometime ago, but then the idea was to improve the
dedication of the players.

        I have observed that almost everybody in the judge, is playing
simultaneously several games. From 4 to 10 games is quite usual, but I
have detected cases up to 30 games. This provokes two things. First one, the
player cannot dedicate enough atention to the games he is playing, he loses
deadlines, and he does not talk enough with the other players. The game
becomes more strategic and less diplomatic. The second thing is that we are
about 1000 players playing 600 games, which means 4200 entries (chaos games
or others even increase this number).

        I suggested Ken to put some measure in this. Some kind of flag
"only one game" could be introduced to the judge. He answered me that it
was not so easy, and that this would have to be left in players goodwill.

        Now I suggest to everybody in this judge, or in the other judges
that may appear, to moderate him(her)self in the number of games they
join. Just not to be so radical, let us say 2 or 3 games would be fine. Then
we would all improve the quality of our games, and we would reduce the
amount of games being executed.

        Let us try to make this little effort, and I think we all will
win with it.


        By the way, I want to thank Ken all the effort he has applied to
the game I most like, and also encourage anybody else who is managing other
judges, or may decide to do so. Thanks to everybody.


                                Yours sincerely


                                Joan C. Artes
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.dipl-l
Date:         Wed, 18 Nov 1992 09:06:34 EST
Reply-To:     PGiguere <pgiguere@CCMAIL.EDC.ORG>
From:         PGiguere <pgiguere@CCMAIL.EDC.ORG>
Subject:      Deluxe Diplomacy

          Does anyone know when Deluxe Diplomacy is suppose to be
          released?  I've tried calling Avalon Hill but they won't
          take any orders so I'm wondering if their expected
          publication date of November is going to be off.

          Has anyone heard anything else about the other than what has
          been published in AH's newsletter?

          Paul G.
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Via:        UK.AC.LEEDS.GPS; 23 NOV 92 17:10:21 GMT
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.dipl-l
Date:         Mon, 23 Nov 1992 17:08:59 GMT
Reply-To:     amt5man@SUN.LEEDS.AC.UK
From:         amt5man@SUN.LEEDS.AC.UK
Subject:      Re: Question From bstaker

amt5man@SUN.LEEDS.AC.UK writes:
>
> I received a Youngstown question from bstaker@nyx.cs.du.edu *but* my
> answer to him bounced.  Could someone try and fwd this msg to him
> please?
>
>
>
> > I have a question regarding the youngstown variant.
> > Can an army move Jordan -> Egypt, or must it go
> > Jordan->Suez->Egypt
>
> I don't have a copy of the Judge oungstown map or rules here, if you can send
> me a copy of the rules you're using I can given you an opinion.
>
> I *think* (remember that I am not looking at the Judge rules) that Suez is
> a canal province.  This would mean that you would have to order Jordan ->
> Suez -> Egypt.
>
>
> This is the normal ruling for Youngstown games.
>
> Mark,
>
> PS Don't forget, if you can send me the rules I can give you a more definite
> answer but I think the above is corect.
>
> *** NOTE TO DIPL-L READERS ***
>
> I don't mind answering variant ques for you but if it's a rules ques about
> a game run on Judge please also send me a copy of the rules that you are
> using.
>

bcanning@edu.reed writes

> Actually, You're incorrect. Suez is a strange province, in that it's
> sort of optional whether you go there. You can order an army Jordan ->
> Egypt.

Thanx for pointing this out.  This just goes to show that (1) it's difficult
to give the right answer if you don't have the rules and (2) there are
differences between the Judge rules and the Youngstown rules I am used to.

Mark.

PS In many games Suez is a normal province with a canal in it (like Kiel in
the regular game).  This ennables fleets to sail up Suez.
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Via:        UK.AC.LEEDS.GPS; 23 NOV 92 18:04:34 GMT
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.dipl-l
Date:         Mon, 23 Nov 1992 18:03:12 GMT
Reply-To:     amt5man@SUN.LEEDS.AC.UK
From:         amt5man@SUN.LEEDS.AC.UK
Subject: Re: Two variants being offered on new judge

Rick Desper <desper@EDU.RUTGERS.MATH> writes:-


> I have received permission to start two games on the new Judge: they
> will be as follows.

> 1) Tiger:  a Youngstown game: not gunboat, just regular Youngstown.
> I'm beginning to think that Youngstown deserves to be played with
> partial press in general, if only to give the colonial powers some
> chance.

I don't understand this!  If you're running the game as a normal variant
so that players have the option of sending non judde email do the
various partials make any sense?

Can you explain RIck?

Mark.
From: cmckeithan%galsci.UUCP@MATHCS.EMORY.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.dipl-l
Subject: Recap on Judge woes, please
Date: 18 Nov 92 21:11:16 GMT
Reply-To: cmckeithan%galsci.UUCP@mathcs.emory.edu
Organization: Galaxy Scientific Corp.
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Return-Path: cmckeithan%galsci.UUCP@mathcs.emory.edu

Alas, I did let my subscription to this list lapse for a few weeks, and
upon my return I see much lamentation about the demise of the Judge!

Would it be too great an imposition to ask for a recap of the problems?

Just from reading messages over the last few hours, it looks like this:

1.  Too many unmoderated games, so Ken is overworked dealing with them.
2.  Too much mail processing through the judge, so the machine is overworked.
3.  Too many games in general, again making the machine overworked.

I for one would much rather cut down all the above rather than see the
judge go down!

Has any consideration been given to moving games over to one of the other
two judges?

Cliff McKeithan
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Via:        UK.AC.LEEDS.GPS; 23 NOV 92 16:35:42 GMT
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.dipl-l
Date:         Mon, 23 Nov 1992 16:34:16 GMT
Reply-To:     amt5man@SUN.LEEDS.AC.UK
From:         amt5man@SUN.LEEDS.AC.UK
Subject:      Question From bstaker

I received a Youngstown question from bstaker@nyx.cs.du.edu *but* my
answer to him bounced.  Could someone try and fwd this msg to him
please?



> I have a question regarding the youngstown variant.
> Can an army move Jordan -> Egypt, or must it go
> Jordan->Suez->Egypt

I don't have a copy of the Judge oungstown map or rules here, if you can send
me a copy of the rules you're using I can given you an opinion.

I *think* (remember that I am not looking at the Judge rules) that Suez is
a canal province.  This would mean that you would have to order Jordan ->
Suez -> Egypt.


This is the normal ruling for Youngstown games.

Mark,

PS Don't forget, if you can send me the rules I can give you a more definite
answer but I think the above is corect.

*** NOTE TO DIPL-L READERS ***

I don't mind answering variant ques for you but if it's a rules ques about
a game run on Judge please also send me a copy of the rules that you are
using.
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Date:         Wed, 18 Nov 1992 13:44:45 TZONE
Reply-To:     dace@SHRIKE.UND.AC.ZA
From:         dace@SHRIKE.UND.AC.ZA
Subject:      The new judge era (fwd)

First, let me add my voice to the chorus who appreciate the work Ken has
done and regret his decision to leave the jdr position.  GIven the load it
has put on him, however, I understand it.

> >  I agree with the entry
> > fee suggestion, and with the call for control of game entry by GM's.
>
>   While this is a good idea in theory, I think it would be a bad
> idea in practice. I explored the idea for an Empire tourney and
> dismissed it. There are two major problems:
>

You missed a major point as well.  Not every dip player on the judge lived
in the USA or had access to dollars.  One great feature of email diplomacy
is its international flavour, and charging fees in any currency would be
very destructive in this regard.

>
>   I have volunteered to run one if someone can get a machine. Since
> I pay an hourly rate to get onto the Internet, I'm going to be
> doing this at a loss, financially. I've also offered to maintain
> the "official" version of the judge software.
>

Remember there are a couple of other judge implementations in the world.
While I don't think that any of them could come near coping with the load
which was placed on Washington judge, distributing the load over several
sites could be a good idea.


	-Hal
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