HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: rec.games.netrek
Date: Thu,  8 Oct 1992 08:13:28 -0400 
From: "Joseph E. Beck" <jb8n+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: INL Strategy: Is Ori and Kli playable?
	<1atuo9INNodq@agate.berkeley.edu>


>INL games are won by teams that keep an aggressive posture.  If I'm
>Klingon and the Roms take MIR while we take ERI, I'm happy. 

But...taking MIR is trivial, it's so far from where most of the battle
is being fought, and it's very far from KLI.  It's almost impossible
to stop the take unless you keep watching MIR (and making sure no one
gets too far away), so your oggers have to guard more space, a
definite disadvantage.  You definitely should be happy if you can
trade MIR for ERI.  ERI is in the middle of a battlezone, and the ROMS
tend to fly right past it.  You're just assuming that this trade can
be made, I'm much more doubtful.


>If we can take SIR and REG, MIR will be simple to take back.  Just 
>ignore it until that time and fight the battle in the enemy's space.

Again, I see problems with this line of reasoning.  You're ignoring
the fact that they've taken MIR, so you now have less armies than they
do.  So you respond by taking their front line.  This is certainly a
'good' plan, but I'm not sure it's a realistic one.  "We have less
armies so we just take their front line".  I don't understand how this
works.  You just take their front line?  But they have more defendable
space than you do.   Playing against inferior teams this is may work, 
but not against a good team.


>I will say that it is easy to fall into the trap of taking MIR back
>first, especially if the enemy leaves only one army on it; this is,
>in my mind, a waste of time and resources and does not foster an
>aggressive stance (since they can just come back through Ori space
>and take it again).

>Fight in their territory; I'm sure Sun Tzu had something to say about 
>that.
 
You've found the problem but are ignoring it.  You say it's easy to
take MIR, this is true:  one person can trivially take it.  You then
say to ignore it and carry the battle to their space.  Fine, but
you're *still* down armies.  I don't see how having less armies and
more spread out planets allows you be agressive.  I'm sure Sun Tzu
said something about having more men than you're opponent.

	joe
	Purple haze
Organization: Senior, Chemical Engineering, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: rec.games.netrek
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1992 12:19:59 -0400 
From: Kevin Michael Bernatz <kb32+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Plasma Tactic

Excerpts from netnews.rec.games.netrek: 12-Oct-92 Plasma Tactic J.
Neuenschwander@author (1696)

> Here's a tactic that Xymox and I invented awhile back:

Ahh,
	I imagine the flames that this poor guy is gonna get....

***WORD OF WARNING***   NEVER SAY THAT "YOU" INVENTED
SOMETHING!!   UCB and CMU got in a big flame war over who invented
ogging when in reality we were talking more about who came up with the
word "ogging".   I do not believe that you invented this since it has
been around for a long time.... I imagine even longer at UCB.

-KB
From: hill@norman.VI.RI.CMU.EDU (Robert Hill)
Newsgroups: rec.games.netrek
Subject: Re: Hell Peacock
Date: 12 Oct 92 18:41:03 GMT
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon

Scott Drellishak writes

> You're just spoiled.  It's easy to claim that I'm scared because I
> don't want to deal with cross-continent lag because *you* *don't*
> *have* *to*.  The only servers which you consider "clueful" are on the
> east coast.

If there was *ANY* server with tmode other than calvin on the west coast,  
i'm sure it'd get lots of play.  Calvin clue isn't bad...it isn't great  
tho.  The lag is...well....need I say, painful?  Cross-country lag I can  
handle..calvin lag is something else all together.

> You're right.  I have no idea what any east coast server is like, even
> though I used to play on bronco and rwd4 (until I got sick of the
> lag).

The lag isn't bad cross country.  With UDP I find even calvin playable on  
occassion.

> Ogging clueful people is trickier, but suiciding on them, in a
> dogfight if not in a cloak-attack, is relatively easy.  Even if they
> run away, you've neutralized them until they can get you off their
> tail.  So, it becomes a question of teamwork.  But I maintain that
> ogging (perhaps I should say "killing someone when you don't care
> whether you live or not") is easy, as long as you are (a) willing
> to harass them for a while, and (b) a reasonably good dogfighter.

Again, incorrect.  I'd challenge you to ogg me any day.  Of course, my  
teammates to refer to me as hotel spaceace...

> By the way, I find your comment about maturity interesting,
> considering how personal you're taking this, and how ad hominem your
> attacks have become.

That's just justin...you get used to it...:-)
> Out of curiosity, is there anyone out there who thinks I have a point?
> So far, all I've seen is disagreement, and I find this discouraging.
> 
> Scott

I think you will find few who agree with you.  Dogfighting isn't as  
important as ogging.  Dogfighting is fun, and is useful, but it is NOT as  
useful as ogging.

Rob
aka Spaceace!
From: hill@norman.VI.RI.CMU.EDU (Robert Hill)
Newsgroups: rec.games.netrek
Subject: Third space scum:  AKIRA?
Date: 12 Oct 92 19:22:10 GMT
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon


Taking 3rd/4th space is a justifiable alternative, in my opinion.

I know akira doesn't do this often, and I do think it is effective in  
stopping a grid-locked LPS-TPS(two planet stand).

Rob
aka Spaceace!
From: fadden@uts.amdahl.com (Andy McFadden)
Newsgroups: rec.games.netrek
Subject: Re: INL Strategy: Is Ori and Kli playable?
Date: 12 Oct 92 20:59:34 GMT
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA

In article <BvxHK5.Dvq.2@cs.cmu.edu> hill@norman.VI.RI.CMU.EDU (Robert Hill) writes:
>> If Sun Tzu played netrek, he'd have somebody grab an agri while he took
>> unguarded planets with a bunch of SCs.  Your interpretation may be  
>
>Sun Tzu DOES play netrek.  He is one of the best players in the game.

Quite a feat for a guy who's been dead for several hundred years.

Talk about the ANCIENT art of war... :-)

>Rob

-- 
fadden@uts.amdahl.com (Andy McFadden)
[ Above opinions are mine, Amdahl has nothing to do with them, etc, etc. ]
Newsgroups: rec.games.netrek
From: osyjm@cs.montana.edu (Jaye Mathisen)
Subject: Re: The Netreker's Life
Organization: CS
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 03:47:03 GMT

In article <1992Oct9.014316.2860@cis.ohio-state.edu> mdm@stegosaur.cis.ohio-state.edu (Michael Moore) writes:
>
>	Netrek can be fun, but beyond a point, netrek is death.

Anybody else hear Twilight Zone music?
-- 
 Jaye Mathisen, COE Systems Manager                (406) 994-4780
 410 Roberts Hall,Dept. of Computer Science
 Montana State University,Bozeman MT 59717	osyjm@cs.montana.edu
From: bathurst@noaapmel.gov (Bill Bathurst)
Newsgroups: rec.games.netrek
Subject: Re: Sun Tzu's Guide to Taking 4th Space  <--- cheaters prosper!!!!
Date: 15 Oct 92 05:40:25 GMT
Article-I.D.: felix.BATHURST.92Oct14214025
Organization: NOAA/PMEL, Sand Point Way, Seattle, WA


Geez, I normally play a scout.  I want to get better in a scout.  If I really
wanted to do you in I would have been in a cruiser.  

I was also experimenting what I could get away with in my scout.  I did nail
you a couple times.  Felt good for being in my lagged scout (:  It would be
like comparing you logged onto bezier and trying to fight Mojo with a scout.
If we every get a fucking decent server here at UW maybe the roles will be
reversed.

--
Bill Bathurst				Internet:	bathurst@noaapmel.gov 
NOAA/PMEL				Phone:		(206) 526-6205
From: echeverr@scf.usc.edu (5150)
Newsgroups: rec.games.netrek
Subject: is it just me...
Date: 10 Oct 1992 18:02:06 -0700
Organization: <censored>
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: girtab.usc.edu


... or are the Gooey Bears extraordinarily arrogant after a sound drubbing?

"<snivel> yeah, you kicked our butt, but we wuz lagged, so you guys still
	suck!!"

HEY. WAKE UP. This wasn't a 10-8-1 game.  It was an LPS.


5150
school pride, you understand
From: fadden@uts.amdahl.com (Andy McFadden)
Newsgroups: rec.games.netrek
Subject: Re: UDP/scanning beam/visible tractor client
Keywords: udp, scanning beam, visible tractor
Date: 16 Oct 92 19:48:10 GMT
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA

In article <1992Oct15.235203.7357@udel.edu> zog@chocolate.cns.udel.edu (Michael D. Eisenberg [Dan]) writes:
>
>	ok, i found the visible tractor client somewhere, and then i got
>the one from calvin/berkeley that also has the +1 and -1 warp features.
>however, i have several questions:

What +1/-1 warp features?  There's a client that tells you speed?!?  Talk
about Netrek for Morons...

I've been using Tedd Hadley's client, but didn't see that.  I don't recall
it being passed as an NBR feature, so anything which has it should be
un-blessed.

Post a message if I'm wrong (Leonard?)

-- 
fadden@uts.amdahl.com (Andy McFadden)
[ Above opinions are mine, Amdahl has nothing to do with them, etc, etc. ]
From: tom@soda.berkeley.edu (Tom Holub)
Newsgroups: rec.games.netrek
Subject: Re: Base
Date: 15 Oct 1992 09:29:38 GMT
Organization: U.C. Berkeley, CS Undergraduate Association
Distribution: usa
NNTP-Posting-Host: soda.berkeley.edu

In article <1bjdd5INN5be@koh-sun1.usc.edu> meattle@usc.edu (Saumya Meattle) writes:
)
)An idea to save armies from bombing would be to get a base to pile 99 armies
)on the home planet as soon as the game starts. the base could further carry 
)25. After that the base could just sit on the home planet protecting the
)armies.  

Two problems: By the time a base gets to another planet and picks up 25
armies, the first bombing wave has arrived.  By the time he gets back
to the home planet to drop, the second wave is arriving.  LURI did this
in our game against the LA Riot since it was obvious he wasn't going to
be able to survive an ogg.  We kept 50 or so there for a while, and had
a 2 or 3 planet advantage, but then we ran out of armies and were hosed.

The other problem is that planets with lots of armies on them plague;
you can't expect 100 armies to last on a planet more than a couple minutes.
 -Mojo
Newsgroups: rec.games.netrek
Subject: Re: More dogfighting foo
From: hill@norman.VI.RI.CMU.EDU (Robert Hill)
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 20:31:06 GMT
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon

Flt. Capt. Limofel writes
> In article <Bw3sGB.Hrv@news.iastate.edu> wyvern@iastate.edu (Nuno  
Bettencourt) writes:
> >	I don't get it, how would anyone ever get any kills if there was
> >no dogfighting? You really can't Ogg to get kills, that's usually only
> >valuable for killing carriers. (heavy on the usually - no flames!) I 
> >guess I'm just pure dogfighter (being a tbird kinda guy) to question 
> >why everyone belittles dogfighting like they have been....
> 
> Am I wasting my time? Is no one reading?? There are zillions of other
> ways to get kills. Read the (my) earlier posts.
> 
> I grimace at being ignored, but if my comments are that unfounded, at
> least someone have the decency to tell me to SHUT-UP.
> 
> Flt. Capt. "Is anyone out there?" Limofel

SHUT-UP!  No...just teasing.  I agree completely with you.  Some tbird  
admirals disagree, however.

Rob
aka Spaceace!
From: leonard@mimsy.umd.edu (Leonard Dickens)
Newsgroups: rec.games.netrek
Subject: Re: NBR
Date: 16 Oct 92 02:42:33 GMT
Organization: Deep Thirteen, Gizmonics Institute

ZZnew guy writes:
>	So the info-borg I complained about is the new NBR client, eh?

Not as such.  (I am writing the "Official" NBR, whatever that means.)

"NBR" refers to a whole suite of changes to the client that have been
VOTED ON by the netrek community and APPROVED by a 2/3 quorom of the
voters.  As such, these changes are fair game for ANY blessed client
writer to include or not at his or her option.  And NBR changes are
INL legal, as far as I know.  (I do think that you shouldn't be able
to use a client -- NBR or not -- that is not ftp'able, but that is
another matter.)


>It is clear that the NBR is, as I have
>rather expected all along, an excuse to replace the old client with a
>new "better" client (Read: info-borg).  

"Better"??  Of COURSE!!  Why the hell would someone write a client
that they thought was WORSE?

As to NBR being an info borg: well, depends on your definition.  If
you define a borg feature as "any feature that is not in my two year
old client", then NBR is most certainly an info borg.

I don't define borg that way.  Most people don't.  How do you define
borg?


>	People who use it assure me that it makes no difference what-so-ever. 
>Do I need to say that this is bullshit?  If it made no difference, then
>why would someone have gone to the trouble of writing it?  

OF COURSE it makes a difference.  See my argument above about it being
"better".  The question is: does it change the game in ways we don't
want?

Remember when the client with the triangles for locked planet/locket
player came out?  How many people would want to go back to the old
days without that?  It is a small change.  It give a (very) small
advantage to its user.  It changes the game in a (very) small way.
But none of these is an argument against it.  IMAO.


>Isn't this
>the same arguement that the person who blessed the Beef client used?

He didn't have 2/3 of the community backing him on each change.  In
fact, planet numbers is an NBR proposal that was DEFEATED.


>Everyone was quite upset about that.

Yes, because that was UNILATERAL action.  This is universally agreed
to be bad.  NBR seeks to include the feelings of the netrek community
as a whole.  I am sorry if your opinions do not match those of the
vast majority, however, that is no reason for us to halt changes that
we feel are Right (tm).

-Leonard
Organization: Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: rec.games.netrek
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1992 02:45:34 -0400 
From: "Timothy C. Worsley" <tw1r+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Hey!!!!!! Clue game on flint? [was Re: LA Riot -vs- GB, game stats]
	<1992Oct11.052048.16001@cs.brown.edu>

Excerpts from netnews.rec.games.netrek: 11-Oct-92 Hey!!!!!! Clue game on
flin.. Eugene Santos Jr.@cs.bro (2742)

> Hey! Flint is fine. Sort of. I still haven't figured out why the lag is
> so awful. It could be that I really mucked up the server code for
> flint. 


	I don't mean to offend.  It's sort of painful that the flint lag is so
bad.  The flint mods are probably the best in the game, and I really
wish that I could take advantage of them, but it's like beating my head
on a wall.  Ah well.

ZZnew guy
From: paulsen@stipple.seas.upenn.edu (FreeKill)
Newsgroups: rec.games.netrek
Subject: Re: LA Riot -vs- GB, game stats
Date: 12 Oct 92 01:57:25 GMT
Organization: University of Pennsylvania

In article <1992Oct11.185443.19040@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU> von@cory.Berkeley.EDU (Steve Von Worley) writes:

>Irregardless of lag we would have beat you.
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^

Yep, you were destined to be a CS major.  What the hell kind of word is
irregardless?  Misspellings I can take, but to use a word that only truly
ignorant people use...  C'mon Steve, you can do better.

Brian
Newsgroups: rec.games.netrek
From: hde+@cs.cmu.edu (Herbert Enderton)
Subject: Re: Was AKIRA/Crippler being a butthead? You call it!!!!
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1992 19:49:25 GMT

In article <ceqOYEe00Vp0I3UaA7@andrew.cmu.edu> "Joseph E. Beck" <jb8n+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
>>This is *not* a fact.  Taking 3rd space is very popular amongst CMUers
>>(especially MUCUS, of course), but I don't feel it's a legitimate tactic
>>and your statement is certainly not factual.
>>
>>When I type 'xtrek' (yeah, should make it netrek, but whatever) I expect
>>to be playing a game against people, and trying to take their planets.
>>If I wanted to take undefended planets from robots, I would go to an
>>empty server.  Why don't you do that next time, Kevin, and not ruin
>>the game for people who are interested in playing it.
>Well Tom, thanks for deciding what we do and don't like.  Breaking an
>LPS if the defense has clue is almost impossible.  Genocide often doesn't
>happen in tournaments, even with horendous lag you managed to prevent
>genocide in your last game, correct?  
>
>>If you would never genocide them, you don't deserve the genocide.  End
>>of story.
>This is just stupid.  So since the attackers aren't mondo enough they
>earn the right to be bored for several hours (while the defense fights
>out of their LPS).  Maybe this is your conception of netrek but a lot
>of us disagree.  Face it, the attackers adjusted strategy (went for
>3rd space) and the defense didn't respond properly so they lost.  End
>of story.

This is an old agrument, but...

I agree with Tom.  Taking of 3rd space should be strongly discouraged, and
I am not happy to see a respected player like Akira espousing it as
a legitimate tactic.  "The LPS is too tough" is no excuse.

Yes, taking the last planet against a good team is challenging.  Attacking
it shouldn't be boring, though.  But I am constantly amazed at the
number of otherwise excellent players who seem to be completely useless
when it comes to helping on last planet attacks.  I mean, it's strategically
the simplest situation in the game:  there is only one target to go for!
Yet in most pickup games in which my team is strong enough to reduce the
enemy to one planet, I count myself lucky if there are two other players
who will actually get near the target planet at the same time,
and who will cloak and blow past oggers instead of killing them and/or
running away.

  -- Red Shirt
From: bharat@shadow.Eng.Sun.COM (Bharat Mediratta)
Newsgroups: rec.games.netrek
Subject: Re: Something seriously amiss
Date: 17 Oct 1992 02:33:21 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Distribution: world
Reply-To: bharat@shadow.Eng.Sun.COM
NNTP-Posting-Host: shadow

In article 145004@IASTATE.EDU, rmuliana@IASTATE.EDU (Rony Muliana) writes:

>   Not quite right. :)
>   As to my knowlege, the ERic's client (or Hadley's?) doesn't require 
>   server changes you talked about.
>   Instead of having the server tell the client the value of me->p_tractor,
>   it does this in input.c : 
> 	case 'T':
>             ...
> 
>             me->p_tractor = target->o_num;
> 
>   where target->o_num is the player number which you point to by the mouse.
>   And also, it needs to comment out this line in socket.c, handleSelf()
>   /* me->p_tractor = -1; */
>   to avoid it from drawing tractor lines pointing to (0,0)
>   Correct me if I'm wrong.
> 
> -Rony
>  NFS: isae@IASTATE.EDU
>  AFS: rmuliana@IASTATE.EDU


Yes, but since the client can never be sure that the guy you CHOOSE
to tractor is the guy you REALLY tractor, I'm sure that this would
result in you thinking that you've tractored somebody who you haven't,
because they were out of range...

	-Bharat
---
    /\        Bharat Mediratta
   \\ \       Graphics Continuation Group
  \ \\ /      
 / \/ / /     
/ /   \//\    SUN Microsystems, Inc.	
\//\   / /    Mailstop: MTV18-218
 / / /\ /     2550 Garcia Avenue, Building 18
  / \\ \      Mountain View, CA 94043
   \ \\       Phone:  (415)336-4347, FAX:(415)336-5471
    \/        Email:  bharat.mediratta@eng.sun.com
From: fadden@uts.amdahl.com (Andy McFadden)
Newsgroups: rec.games.netrek
Subject: Re: Server question: problem with .global
Date: 16 Oct 92 19:50:53 GMT
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA

In article <Bw6FCv.4LL@ulowell.ulowell.edu> oneill@cs.ulowell.edu (Brian 'Doc' O'Neill) writes:
>Anyone know how to correct a problem with the .global file? The .global file
>on bigmax seems to have gotten the idea that there have only been 0.2 active
>hours, and everyone suddenly has enlarged defensive ratings...

Use "scores A" to get the player list.  The numbers at the very top are
the contents of the .globals file.

If you changed the size of it (i.e. by altering the global stats structure),
it's possible that daemonII looked at your old file, decided it was the
wrong format, and hosed it.  Look at the code near the start of daemonII.c.

>Brian O'Neill - Systems Manager, Computer Science 	 (508) 934-3645

-- 
fadden@uts.amdahl.com (Andy McFadden)
[ Above opinions are mine, Amdahl has nothing to do with them, etc, etc. ]
Newsgroups: rec.games.netrek
From: hoswell@rintintin.Colorado.EDU (Old Nick)
Subject: Re: Plasma Tactic
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 20:40:11 GMT

esj@cs.brown.edu (Eugene Santos Jr.) writes:

>>>WALL
>>
>>>OF
>>
>>>PLASMA
>>
>>Nope.  Never ran into it, never seen it, never even HEARD of it.
>>

>Just my $.02 worth. Back in the days of foghorn and GAs (at least 2 years ago),
>I used to fly "formation" with 1 or more other GAs. We'd time it so we'd
>fire these tracking plasmas. Guess what! Boom!

Pretty much a joke, foghorn was... fun though.  I remember when:

bav, FillInTheBlank, CHUD, Scout Popcorn

...too bad tramp.cc.utexas.edu doesn't have the old list of scummers, er
player database.

>Captain Limofel (foghorn)

pshaw - that's not scumming - try:

Admiral Old Nick
Admiral -=>+<=-  : Started this one trying to kill scum.  Think I made
	some ridiculous # of kills like 86 or so...
Admiral That Limey Guy
Rear Adm. King Tut

Can't believe I put that many hours into foghorn.  I'm ashamed.

grand super-duper rear admiral Old Nick
-- 
||        -=> Old Nick <=-         |      <<<<=- "Dial a cliche" -=>>>>      ||
|| hoswell@rintintin.colorado.edu  |                                         ||
|| *or* hoswell@yoda.hao.ucar.edu  |  A cynic knows the price of everything  ||
||         Think Clearly!          |        and the value of nothing.        ||
From: beorn@elk.Berkeley.EDU (Beorn Johnson)
Newsgroups: rec.games.netrek
Subject: Re: New Feature Proposal
Date: 15 Oct 1992 00:34:25 GMT
Organization: UC Berkeley
Distribution: world
Reply-To: beorn@berkeley.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: elk.berkeley.edu

jecoleb@eos.ncsu.edu in <1992Oct14.172300.23540@ncsu.edu>:
-  
-  jmh@athena.mit.edu (J Michael Hammond) proposes:
-  >When a player loses his first ship, he is forced to wait ten seconds
-  >before getting the next one.  This wait time increases by, one
-  >second for each subsequent ship lost by that player in that game.
-  >These time constants might, of course, require some tinkering
-  >if implemented, but they seem like realistic values to start with.
-  
-  Er, no.
-  
-  A *lot* of tinkering.

Yeah, the "add one second for every ship lost" is bogus.  But how does
the 10-second wait before a ship becomes active work out?  Has it been tried?
The "tinkering" would compose of adjust the wait time ... pretty minimal.

To avoid resurrection scumming, you could have them view the tactical
map (with updates) instead of the MOTD.  Optionally, you
could let them choose initial course and speed.

-  
-  This would reduce an LPS to "send in two or three oggers to clear the 
-  planet, then drop during the thirty-second interlude before they get back."

Then the defensive tactic would be to eliminate the oggers before they
get to your homeworld -- SpaceControl(tm Quasar?) and Dogfighting
become more important.  Remember, they have to suffer the 10-second lag
too.  No one like LPSs anyway, especially against clueless people who
just know to orbit and shoot.


-  *shrug*  Sounds like a runner-scum's paradise, where 16 aesthetically-
-  pleasing ships dance around space pelting each other and running away,
-  for fear of *gasp!* dying.

Then runner-scum won't defend planets or bomb planets.  I think it
balances.  Also, people who _can_ kill will be much much more valuable.

What it _would_ help with is TEAM PLAY -- your friends would try to
save you if you were hurt and/or out of fuel.

-  
-  Fire away on your own server, and see who shows up, is all I have to say.
-  

Yup -- that's they way it always goes . . .


	Beorn
	(aka Snidly)