From: hamilton@hydra.cs.gmr.com (William E. Hamilton CS50 CS/50)
Newsgroups: talk.origins
Subject: Re: Creationists: EXPLAIN THIS -- the Brazil Nut Effect
Date: 21 Aug 92 17:48:12 GMT
Reply-To: hamilton@gmr.com (William E. Hamilton CS50 CS/50)
Organization: GM Research Labs, Warren, MI

In article <1992Aug21.030000.28954@augean.eleceng.adelaide.edu.AU> dabbott@augean.eleceng.adelaide.edu.AU (Derek Abbott) writes:
>A challenge to creationists:
>
>Please explain how the entropy of a bag of mixed nuts decreases, when
>you shake the bag with "undirected" energy.
>
>Where is the Divine control mechanism in this case?

Good point, Derek. There are numerous other examples around (e.g. chemical 
reactions in which simple elements or compounds combine to form 
complex compounds, or even in which chaotic dynamical behavior occurs).
The control mechanisms in these examples are the laws of chemistry and
physics.  The nut example is particularly interesting. Here the smaller nuts
fall through the spaces between the larger ones and the nuts stratify
by size.  But the creationists should know all about this. After
all, they are the ones who claim that "hydrologic sorting" is what
got all the fossils arranged during the flood. :-). It would seem that
their thermodynamics arguments would preclude "hydrologic sorting".

Not too long ago, when I was still struggling with how to square
the soverignty of God with my growing suspicion that
the creationist thermodynamics arguments were not relevant, it
occurred to me to say, "Well, OK, the laws of chemistry and physics,
together with energy input can bring about a variety of orderly
structures. But, why do the laws of chemistry and physics have these properties
which can bring about all sorts of order, including (possibly, if you
accept abiogenesis)?  But this question is not a science question.
It asks about causes that produce effects we can observe, but are not
necessarily themselves observable. The question jumps from physics to
metaphysics.  To me this seems a perfectly reasonable Christian response
to the concern that evolution leaves no room for God to act: God acts at
levels below those objectively observable by humans. Is that
a "God of the gaps" argument? Maybe. But it doesn't bother me, because it
seems to me that advancing human knowledge doesn't make the gaps smaller. 
Instead, new knowledge almost invariably creates new questions (new gaps).
There will always be plenty for scientists to investigate and new unknowns
will emerge as old problems are settled. Furthermore, this supposed mode by
which God works is not unknown to Christian theologians. Just look at
the discussion of regeneration in a Calvinist theology book.

Obviously I'm making no claims about the correctness of all this.
That's just the way it looks to me.

please reply to hamilton@gmr.com
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Bill Hamilton                  |
GM Res/Env staff           ----+----
Computer Science Dept.         |      Now faith is the assurance of things
Warren, MI 48090-9055          |      hoped for, the conviction of things
(313) 986 1474                 |      not seen. Heb 11:1
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The chief end of man is to glorify God and enjoy Him forever
- The Westminster Shorter Catechism

Bill Hamilton

Organization: Physics, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA