From: madjdsad@girtab.usc.edu (Zagros Madjd-Sadjadi)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.turkish,talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.soviet,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: Because The Designation Of A Turk Is Not A Genetic Feature, 'Zagros.'
Date: 8 Apr 1992 23:52:32 -0700
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: girtab.usc.edu

han@anadolu.michigan.com (hasan.b.mutlu) writes:



>You have already demonstrated ample willingness to put your foot
>where your mouth is, 'Zagros Cavus.' When one looks at the data you 
>provided one must also examine the source which distributed it. After 
>all, the above numbers don't mean a thing unless the appropriate
>data of the Republic of Turkiye and context is used. What desperate
>'data' are you referring to? British? South African? PKK? ASALA/SDPA/ARF 
>Terrorism Triangle? KGB? 

Yes, one must examine the source, it is all from non-Turkic, non-Kurdish
sources.  If you want to use Turkish data (which until 1991 claimed that
the number of Kurds in Turkey was ZERO), then you are using biased data.
If I use Kurdish data, it will be similarly biased upwards.  My own
estimates have their own inherent biases, I admit that.  However, western
data from western news organizations are the least likely sources of bias
in the world especially when you consider that these sources are from 1988
and 1989, at a time when the government of Turkey was a VERY IMPORTANT
ally.  However, the western press is independent and not tied to the
government.  Or are you claiming that the NEW YORK TIMES, the WASHINGTON
POST, the SAN FRANCISCO EXAMINER, the MANCHESTER GUARDIAN, the TIMES OF
LONDON, and THE NEW YORKER are ALL KGB fronts or are controlled by the PKK?
   

>>Now if we throw in the 1 to 2 MILLION Kurds who have fled across the border
>>to Turkey from Iraq in the last two years, plus figure in a minor rise in
>>population we will come to the following figures : 9.2 - 13.8 million Kurds.

>Odear. Your lack of intelligence has to be divinely inspired and 
>displayed in 'Aryan' museums. Can you provide any proof for this
>joke?

I have already answered this in other posts.  BTW, you should use the phrase
"your lack of sources which I agree with" not "your lack of intellgence" in
the above sentence.  Also you should state, "Can you provide any proof which
I will accept for these claims" not "Can you provide any proof for this joke?"

>>Now show me eight more sources to back up YOUR claims.

>I venture to guess that, for years, you have nurtured an obsession
>as to who is a Turk? One may have been born from a non-Turkish,
>non-Muslim parent outside the Turkish land, yet still can be a 
>Turk, provided this person calls himself or herself a Turk. 
>Because the designation of a Turk is not a genetic feature,
>not a racial or religious feature. It is a matter of identifying
>with the Turkish values. 

Hey, we have an agreement!  Wow, this must be the day hell froze over!  Yes,
Turks are self-defined.  If you say that you are a Turk, then you are a Turk.
The same is true of the Kurds.  Yet another reason why the numbers are hard
to pin down.

Yes see, Hasan.  When you make a valid point, I send you congrats.  Too bad,
you have never heard of such a courtesy in your 5,000,000+ postings....  Oh
but I forgot, Hasan knows EVERYTHING!  NOT!

>>"The Kurds have no friends."

>In Turkiye, there is a unity of ideals, goals and interests. This is
>what makes a society a nation. By the way, whatever happened to your 
>'Aryan' buddies in the ASALA/SDPA/ARF Terrorism Triangle? 

Wrong.  In Turkiye, there is a government which is able to exercise control
over a given geographic area and which is able to please enough individuals
so that regional factions have been prevented from splitting it apart.  ADMIT
IT, HASAN, if the PKK exists, there CANNOT be a unity of ideals, goals and
interests.  I am NOT saying that what the PKK is doing is the correct course
of action but the MERE EXISTANCE presents a logical contradiction from your
claim that in Turkiye there is a unity of ideals, goals and interests.

>>Azadi Kurdistan

>From Erivan?

>Hasan B-) Mutlu

>                     'Kill Turks and Kurds wherever you find them 
>                      and in whatever circumstances you find them. 
>                      Turkish children also should be killed as 
>                      they form a danger to the Armenian nation.' 
>                                     (Hamparsum Boyadjian - 1914)

Regards,
Zagros Madjd-Sadjadi
Ph.D. Program in Political Economy and Public Policy
University of Southern California

Xref: sparky soc.culture.turkish:4051 talk.politics.mideast:10448 talk.politics.soviet:3302 soc.culture.soviet:2944 soc.culture.greek:3198 soc.culture.europe:3598 soc.culture.german:2933