HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: lrabe@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Lee A Rabe)
Subject: Re: Birth data, etc...
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 00:02:34 GMT

Delurking....

Hello.  Can I add my birth date to the list?
July 25, 1971, sometime in the morning.

Oh, and my eyes are blue/grey/green (depending on the mood, environment,etc)
Does this mean I can't be a pagan? :)

TopCat
From: kitten@brewich.hou.tx.us (Kitten)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: help from you guys
Date: Wed, 07 Oct 92 15:41:31 CDT
Organization: The Brewer's Witch BBS, +1 713 272 7350, Brewich.Hou.TX.US

To Janis Cortese:
 
I'll make my first posting here to you...speaking from a student's point 
of view. Perhaps the solution is to integrate this one student's possible 
viewpoint into the curriculum somehow...either in a term paper, or in a 
class debate. Some of the most swaying arguments come from the student's 
own peers. An open class debate, with you the teacher keeping your 
distance as a mediator, and to prod it on when it gets quiet.
Or perhaps you can just respond with "The goal of this class is to learn 
what probably happened according to facts that support a theory. Thus 
this class is not answering "Did it happen?", but rather "What happened?" 
Find out what classes are available that cover the Creation vs. Evolution 
debate and mention that the student may wish to sign up for those classes 
next time around. I know as a student that I have always been annoyed by 
other students who try to twist the topic.
Perhaps try to field some questions from this student, to keep any 
feelings of avoidance down, then if they just get into the "But that's 
the way the Bible says it happened" routine then just go straight out and 
tell them This class is to study Paleontology (wasn't it?), not to debate 
religion. Give definitions of these terms to show the student that his 
questions are out of place. Or, as I suggested, to keep from accidentally 
saying something sharp, let the other students say it for you. It should 
only take a few minutes of prompting before they close the case 
themselves.

Wish you luck, and hope one of these suggestions (not only mine) will 
help you.


------------------
kitten@brewich.hou.tx.us (Kitten)
Origin: The Brewer's Witch BBS -- Houston, TX -- +1 713 272 7350
     "Silence is the voice of complicity" - Vote Early, Vote Often!
From: kendrick+@CMU.EDU (Kendrick Kerwin Chua)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: The Serpent
Date: 12 Oct 92 15:23:57 GMT
	<-1367024647snx@Gilsys.DIALix.oz.au>
Organization: Freshman, MCS general, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA

I have an announcement

My opinions have been swayed as a result of friendly and non-flaming
persuasion on this board.  No longer will I try to claim that everything
came from Mesopotamia.

I have come to the conclusion that perhaps having that opinion is
pointless.  Everything came from somewhere, and it is a waste of disk
space to go around saying that my religion is older or better than
everyone else's.  I feel much better because of it.

Yes it's true.  Somebody on alt.pagan has changed his mind.  Excuse me
now while I measure the temperature in christian Hell.

Kendrick Kerwin Chua

kc3u+@andrew.cmu.edu    or
kendrick+@CMU.EDU

Cthulhu for President, 1992!
From: JBrandt@AAA.UOregon.EDU (Jay Brandt (Jason))
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: why Pagan Studies
Date: 13 Oct 92 00:42:58 GMT
Organization: The Polyhedron Group


     Where were those Pagans who were Anthropologists, Sociologists,
Archaeologists, and Philosophers when Dr. Margeret Murry's ground braking
books "God of the Witches" and " The Witchcult in Western Europe " was
being discredited.  Where are they now to write the books, articles, and
monographs, who is willing to take on the work of love to edit and produce
the "Encyclopedia Pagana" with authors noted in their fields of study. 
Articles about our heroes, athletes, composers, music, If you have ever
heard the duet from the Pearl fishers by Berloz, You may wonder what other
devotional material is hidden out there in the guise of arias in operas and
oratorios, we probably have great cultural achievements that we have been
made blind to through shear ignorance.  To change the academic view of who
we are, where we came from, and where we are going in the future.  Not
theories masquerading as facts, but with solid facts and research to back
them up.  The introductory courses of Anthropology taught in colleges and
universities today define Witchcraft as the practice of evil sorcery and
magic, and these are the people that will study Folk/Pagan cultures all
around this world.
     If we are to survive, we must support other Pagans in this world who
are losing their cultures to the inroads of Western "Christian"
Civilization.  Where are the Nayar of northern India who's culture is one
of the last Matriarchies, that until quite recently could be described in
terms that were used to describe the classic Amazon cultures.  Where are
the anthropologists to help them to survive.  We who are of European
extraction who have for the most part lost our culture and civilization
during the Middle Ages and the Renaissance.  If we are to hang on to what
precious little is left, we must learn all we can about the other
Folk/Pagan cultures and support them where we can so that the
Folk/Paganways that are vanishing so quickly from the face of the earth can
remain for the generations to come.
     If you can control, what is known about a people, you can control the
truth about who, and what those people really are.  If this kind of
mind/thought control had not been practiced such questions about the roll
the horned alters found in the oil pressing rooms in the Philistine city of
Ekron in  the modern state of  Israel (1987) would not have come up,
because these horned alters were in some way caught up in a royal/temple
monopoly, because to these people their Queen/High Priestess, with the aid
of lesser priestess ran the oil business.  But because of the hatred for
women in any position of power these civilizations were thought of as
uncivilized.
Pegasus.
From: kate@cybernet.cse.fau.edu (Kathleen Jones)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Clothing (was Re: Ceremony Suggestions?)
Date: 14 Oct 92 18:01:21 GMT
Organization: Cybernet BBS, Boca Raton, Florida

an725@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Paul L. Fortman, Jr.) writes:
> 
> I can NEVER stand to wear clothes.  
> 
> I just thought I would share that with you.
> 
> *Paul (a Naturist/Nudist, Taoist, Pagan, pseudo-shaman, et al.)

*grin*

that's why i like living in a basement with _no_windows_...

nudity vs. light.  an amusing tradeoff...

kate 

sig as soon as i figure out the system...
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: rks@cscns.com (Island's Child)
Subject: Re: dead cats
Organization: Community_News_Service
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL3
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 22:20:45 GMT

    I'll bet there will be an uprising on two levels:

The fundamentalist christians will accuse witches first --

then they will accuse the satanists...

    From my limited reading on the subject, most of these events
are actually caused by kids imitating that which they believe to be
satanic ritual.
From: simcock@waikato.ac.nz
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Witches and death
Date: 13 Oct 92 02:46:42 +1300
Organization: University of Waikato, Hamilton, New Zealand

In article <BV1esB2w165w@hogbbs.scol.pa.us>, wce@hogbbs.scol.pa.us (Bill Eichman) writes:
> markbr%radian@natinst.com (markbr) writes:
> 
>> Actually, going along with what Gil said above, I would like to suggest that
>> what was being suggested, with the idea of a "tested philosophy", is one
>> that a) does not conjure up an immediate, knee-jerk reaction of bullshit, or
>> airhead, and b) gives some coherency to how we relate to each other. Sort of
> 
> Yeah, that's pretty much what I meant when I talked about a rigorous,
> tested philosophy.... ;-)
> 
> Noot everyone needs the philosophy, and not everyone needs an intense 
> paganism and ecstatic experiences, but if this diverse community doesn't 
> keep up a certain level of philosophy and initiation, then 'pagan-ism' is 
> gooing to be pulled towards the lowest common denominator.
> 
> Memetic entropy. 
> 
>> 
>> What I'm saying goes along with the post I made last month, of finding ways
>> to work together, and agree to differ on the rest. Along the lines of saying
>> "we all follow the Western Pagan tradition (or fill in a word for that phrase
>> and one sub-branch is Wicca, and another are the Druids, and there are
>> unaffiliated, etc."
>> 
> 
> An interesting idea, but ambitiously difficult, and fraught with dangers.
> 
> Of course, at some point, some pagan genius will undoubtedly accomplish 
> such a patterning, expressing it in words and ideas so perfectly just and 
> obviously fair that they are self-convincing. Eh?
> 
> Later, Bill



		Whats all this lowest common denominator stuff.
	In my wide experience, (ok so I'm only 20) garbage comes from
	trying to build a standard for something.

I say Vive la difference. 
	- So I mispronounce, I usually just say "VIV".



					-Matthew.
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: dlg1@quads.uchicago.edu (deborah lynn gillaspie)
Subject: Re: Birth data (was Re: a nice experience...)
Reply-To: dlg1@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 00:43:05 GMT

Hi everyone, thanks to much coaching and supply of documentation by
Lynne and radzy, I'm making yet another try at posting to the group.
Thanks for your patience!

Born Dec. 26, 1955 at 4:20am in Dallas, Oregon (the LITTLE one <g>)
Hazel eyes; five cats of varying ages and degrees of interest in
rituals (depends on whether there's interesting food.<g>)

Janis the chocolate goddess -- have you seen the wonderful chocolate ritual
that's in the last issue of Circle Network News? Sounds like just the thing
for your get-together. I'm still trying to find people I like well enough
to SHARE all that chocolate with...<g>

Thanks to all for the interesting reading -- it keeps me from going stark
raving mad trying to get a doctorate from a non-existent school. In many
ways, it's a Zen kind of experience.

I'll be thinking of you all on Samhain; my big professional conference
always happens right at that time, so I'm never home to celebrate. Last
year it was a rubber chicken banquet on the holiday, not my idea of an
meaningful ritual. I suppose it might have possibilites if one could use real
rubber chickens...then serve REAL food.<g>

Looking forward to some interaction for a change, after all that lurking!

B*B, --Debbie

"Last one into the doctoral program at the Graduate Library School --
add me to the endangered species list."

I don't speak for U of C; they seem perfectly capable of making their
OWN mistakes.


-- 
Internet:         dlg1@midway.uchicago.edu
Bitnet:           dlg1%midway@uchicago
  
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: corun@access.digex.com (Corun MacAnndra)
Subject: Re: New Janis Name
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 20:52:01 GMT


In article <BvtIux.LFz@news.cso.uiuc.edu> ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe) writes:
>
>Does this help clear up the confusion?

Yes it does. Thank you.

>Why should I be offended?  Only homophobes would be offended.  However, you are
>falling into dichotomous thinking.  There are more options besides gay and
>straight, you know.  At least you didn't have the bad manners to congratulate
>me on not being gay, as Eshin-Fun did. *glower*

My apology for potentially causing offense arose from my not knowing you,
and the shortness of your first answer. Though later in your note you stated
that you weren't angered at me particularly, I still left the apology just
on general principles. I would not be so crass as congratulate you for not
being gay. I'm not nearly so homophobic as I once was. I've learned alot, 
and it's due mostly to gaining many close friends in the past several years
that are gay or lesbian. They've taught me much, and been very patient with
me. But my original assumption was based on your .sig file where you use 
the word queer. I've noticed at least one other fellow claiming in his .sig
file that he's queer. Now my only references for the meaning of this word
stem from my high school days when it was used as a derogatory term for
gays. I've heard lesbians call each other dykes, and blacks call each other
nigger, so I assumed that among the gay community it was common to call one
another queer in the same good natured way. My apology was as much for my
assumption as for anything else. (I'm just a sorry son-of-a-gun <grin>)

>I would suggest getting that book (_Spirit and the Flesh_) to help you
>understand what I'm getting at.  The short version is that there are more than
>two genders.  (My Community identifies four.)  The names I use for the genders
>are: 1. feminine; 2. masculine; 3. androgynous; and 4. gynandrous.  At least the
>last two genders are not sex-specific, though they have very strong sex and
>orientation correlations.  Some time I may write an essay about the genders, but
>not until I finish the "What is Wicca" essay for ailsa and the "Toward a
>Taxonomy of Magic" essay.  It *will* be a while.

Now of course I'm going to ask you to explain gynandrous. ;-) I immediately
reached for the OED, but it's not there. Haven't checked the Webster's
Unabridged yet. In the meantime, I'll look for _Spirit and Flesh_.

Thanks for your answers. I hope my constant questions don't bother you.
I'm just a seeker on the path. Feel free to tell me to piss off any time.
(though I'll appreciate it if you do it nicely <grin>)

Bb,

Corun



-- 
===========================================================================
    Corun MacAnndra    |   How much comm could a comm port port
  Dark Horde by birth  |     if a comm port could port comm?
    Moritu by choice   |
Organization: University of Maine System
Date: Tuesday, 13 Oct 1992 00:08:04 EDT
From: Ailsa N.T. Murphy <IO81409@MAINE.MAINE.EDU>
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Ceremony Suggestions?
 <1992Oct9.183542.22191@doug.cae.wisc.edu> <Bw0Lx8.BuM@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk>
 <1992Oct12.222720.2950@radian.uucp>

um, mark, i never mentioned female mutilation, just male
mutilation.  i was the one going on about the aesthetics
of uncircumcized penii...  granted it is uncharacteristic,
but i felt someone ought to say something...

i'll repeat it.  circumcision is mutialtion and stupid.
preserve the intact penis!

                                    -ailsa
======================================================================

Amazing how long it takes the CAPS office to delete accounts!  B)

ALL MAIL TO ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com, please...
From: gil@Gilsys.DIALix.oz.au (Gil Hardwick)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Witches and death
Distribution: world
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 92 03:38:18 GMT
Organization: STAFF STRATEGIES - Anthropologists & Training Agents


In article <BV1esB2w165w@hogbbs.scol.pa.us> wce@hogbbs.scol.pa.us writes:

 > Yeah, that's pretty much what I meant when I talked about a rigorous,
 > tested philosophy.... ;-)
 >  
 > Not everyone needs the philosophy, and not everyone needs an intense
 > paganism and ecstatic experiences, but if this diverse community doesn't 
 > keep up a certain level of philosophy and initiation, then 'pagan-ism' is 
 > going to be pulled towards the lowest common denominator.
 >  
 > Memetic entropy. 
 >  
 > > What I'm saying goes along with the post I made last month, of finding ways
 > > to work together, and agree to differ on the rest. Along the lines of saying
 > > "we all follow the Western Pagan tradition (or fill in a word for that phrase
 > > and one sub-branch is Wicca, and another are the Druids, and there are
 > > unaffiliated, etc."
 >  
 > An interesting idea, but ambitiously difficult, and fraught with dangers.
 >  
 > Of course, at some point, some pagan genius will undoubtedly accomplish 
 > such a patterning, expressing it in words and ideas so perfectly just and 
 > obviously fair that they are self-convincing. Eh?

Hm, I am really very much more concerned with how well pagan children
are cared for than building further abstracts. The ancient wisdoms are
still here for us, any time we want to take them up again, without us
making the same mistake of ignoring them to search all over again. The
*Matter of Britain* is their own problem, and there is no reason for us
to be involved with it.

As we work together, it is as parents and teachers taking our turn to
sustain the dream nurturing all of us.

In thinking about children, it is usually a benefit to think at the
same time about the elderly, and what they might have to offer. Being
pulled towards a lowest common demoninator is usually the outcome of
so many abused children who are emerging uncomfortably and unguided
into their adult lives, where they in turn bear offspring . . .

Gil

--
Gil Hardwick                                      gil@Gilsys.DIALix.oz.au
Independent Consulting Ethnologist                            3:690/660.6
PERTH, Western Australia                                 (+61 9) 399 2401
   * * Sustainable Community Development & Environmental Education * *
From: anwyn@hrnowl.lonestar.org (anwyn)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Libertarians, guns, etc. 
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 92 21:49:45 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Horned Owl BBS


In article <Bvs18D.CLJ@access.digex.com> corun@access.digex.com writes:

  > 
  > In article <1992Oct7.175213.18836@radian.uucp> markbr%radian@natinst.com  >  (markbr) writes:
  > 
  > [a bunch of stuff deleted because you already read it]
  > 
  > You're right Mark. That's why I didn't bother replying to his last note.
  > You can lead someone to culture, but you can't make 'em think. 
That is what I have been thinking.
  >                                                                 I must say,
  > though, that if he's an example of the Libertarian mind, I'm really worried
  > about them. 
An ad hominem attack.....Typical. By the way, many libertarians do 
not challenge the existence of society and the state the way I do. Probably
becuase most people are conditioned not to think about such questions.
  >             And in case anyone cares, there's no "a" in violence. ;-)
Well I have reinstalled the spelling checker on my computer, so it may improve.
  > 
  > As for anyone else but us being foolish enough to let ourselves continually
  > be baited......enough said. ;-)
I am not baiting, I am pointing out that your arguments are
non-existent or faulty.  

1) You have not shown that "It's a fucked world" is a statement of
fact.

2) You have not shown that the alleged "state" exists.

3) You have not shown that "society" exists. (Unicorn is in the
dictionary too, but that does not show that they exist.)

While others have been crying and moaning that "its a fucked world", I
have been trying to undermine the false, collectivistic ideas that
actually cause violence. Millions have died in this century as a result
of these ideas. Apparently, I have not had much success. Probably I
need to polish my debating skills.
  > 
  > Bb,
  > 
  > Corun
  > 
  > 
  > -- 
  > ===========================================================================
  >     Corun MacAnndra    |
  >   Dark Horde by birth  |      Forewarned is a Hindu god.
  >     Moritu by choice   |
  > 
anwyn@hrnowl.lonestar.org	(Sysop horned Owl BBS)


Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: mkkuhner@phylo.genetics.washington.edu (Mary K. Kuhner)
Subject: Re: Women and Men Witches
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 00:00:04 GMT

In article <1992Oct14.094104.5435@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au> darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Fred Rice) writes:

>In witchcraft (as talked about here on this newsgroup), how do men and
>women compare against each other in their roles, etc., in the religion?
>I noticed many references to "Godess" or "Godesses" - do these
>references to feminine deities reflect a difference in the roles men and
>women are expected to have?

It varies a lot (like most things in paganism).  English Traditional
witchcraft has specific roles for males and females, with (as far as
this outside observer can tell) the primary leadership reserved (in
theory) for females.

My CUUPs (Covenant of Unitarian Universalist Pagans) chapter doesn't 
make much difference between men and women except in casting major 
ritual roles; males take the roles directly representing a god, and 
females the roles directly representing a goddess.  For example, at
Samhain a man will take the part of Pwyll, the Celtic hero who visited
the Underworld, and a woman will take the part of the Lady of the
Underworld who received him.  Other roles are assorted based on who 
wants them and has the experience to feel comfortable doing them, though 
ritual leadership is very often shared by a man and a woman ('high 
priest/high priestess').  The group operates by consensus, and though 
the most influential single individual is a woman, there's not much 
tendency to listen to one sex over the other as far as I can tell.

I would be willing to take a 'male' role in ritual, myself, or to work
with a man taking a 'female' role, but some members of my group are more
conservative.  One member of the circle feels fairly strongly that the 
ritual leader at Full Moon celebrations should be female because it is 
a Goddess celebration; however, she bit her tongue and didn't complain 
when the group selected a male in September.

It varies a lot from group to group, though I've not met any witches who
would admit to giving women less than an equal role, while many groups
do give them more than equality.  All-female witchcraft circles are
fairly common, all-male ones fairly rare though not unheard of.

Groups that do give men and women different roles often say that they
are complementary and of equal importance.

Mary Kuhner mkkuhner@genetics.washington.edu
From: fannin@news.cis.ohio-state.edu (elizabeth a fannin)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: dark side poem
Date: 7 Oct 92 19:21:54 GMT
Organization: The Ohio State University Department of Computer and Information Science

ok, here it is.  as i said, this *has* been submitted to M.E.D., but i don't
think i'm breaking any laws by showing it here.  here goes (and tagi, my
apologies if i have the sense of your Goddess wrong at all; likewise to any
worshippers of the others mentioned.  these are my conceptions, like my
opinions they are my problem, or lack thereof, to deal with; hope i harm
none.)

The Dark Lady
_____________
I am the side of your soul you deny, 
the dangerous one.
The one not in love with men, romance and lace
But with the essence of power and Fire alone:
Diana who runs with the hunt
and tastes hot blood on her lips
in her mouth
the tingle and pull in her teeth
--it was not her hounds 
who brought it down.

I am Pele, Heart of Fire
Giving unlimited land
Generous because
I can tear what I give
from the molten Heart of Earth
itself.
Demanding sacrifice 
and casting it aside
I can build paradise with a careless whim
--and tear it down with a dark thought.

I am Kali, Mother of all
--Who holds a sword and a bowl of blood.

I am the fire that burns in your core
When you toss restlessly at night, not understanding why.
Whom you cannot, no matter how you try, 
Push aside.

The drum throbs for Me.
Newsgroups: alt.pagan,alt.sex,alt.sex.bondage
From: billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson)
Subject: Re: Halloween
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 06:27:44 GMT

lrabe@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Lee A Rabe) writes:
: Help!
: 
: I've been invited to a Halloween party, and have found out that it is to be
: a costume party.
: 
: I need suggestions for a costume.  Help!

How about going as a JoHo? That should frighten everyone sufficiently.

Bill
Newsgroups: alt.pagan