HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Organization: Ryerson Polytechnical Institute
Distribution: na
Date: Sunday, 24 Jan 1993 14:42:19 EST
From: <MECE7139@RyeVm.Ryerson.Ca>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Macedonia

I just read a post by someone saying something about the "province" of Macedoni
a in Greece wanting to gain independance and they wouldn't be able to
if Macedonia (from Yugoslavia) was recognized.
  I have been to the greek part of Macedonia twice now ('82 and '89) and
never did I hear a Greek refer to himself as Macedonian.  In '89 when we
came to the airport in Solon my father was taken aside by two soldiers and
asked what kind of name Sarakinov was, why was he here, where was he staying
and for how long.  This was with Canadian passports.
  Only recently has there been a push for Greeks to call themselves Macedonian.
If it's the same this why was my grandfather murdered?  Why did the Greek polic
e come after my grandmother?  Why was my father and aunt put in orphanages(sp?)
and taught Greek and to denounce anything Macedonian?  There is no such thing
as Greek-Macedonians.
  While we were in Voden we came across so many old people who recognised my
father without seeing him for 30 years because he looked so much like my
grandfather who was a partisan.  They all spoke Macedonian, NOT Greek.  We
were visiting relatives and a priest was there.  They were speaking Greek, us
English.  When the priest found out we were Macedonian he immediatly started
speaking Macedonian with us.

Macedonian will be recognized even with all the Greek propoganda.  I have a
video tape that was shot in a village near Voden.  The Greeks were putting
on a folk fest of "Macedonian" dances and music implying that it was Greek
but from their province of Macedonia.  Oddly enough they had a banner that
was covered up and the name of all the songs were in Macedonian, not Greek.
I would like for any Greek to tell me what 'rudo jagne' is or 'makedonsko
devoijche'  It isn't surprising that they didn't actually sing the lyrics
since they aren't Greek.  Good thing someone had their handycam and captured
this blunder by the Greek government!

Oh, in case some of you don't know, Voden is now called Edessa and Solon is
Thessaloniki.

People can argue about what is said in books all they want and for however
long they want.  I have been to the part of Macedonia in Greece and let me
tell you that there were no Macedonians that were Greek.

Tashko Sarakinov.
Xref: sparky soc.culture.yugoslavia:10666 alt.news.macedonia:165 soc.culture.misc:555
From: sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,alt.news.macedonia,soc.culture.misc
Subject: Re: Info on Macedonia
Date: 24 Jan 93 18:53:54 GMT
Organization: Enea Data AB

Panagiotis Lolonis (lolonis@news.weeg.uiowa.edu) writes:
>The rights of one group of people should not harm the rights of another
>group of people.  In this case the rights of Greeks who live in Macedonia,
>Greece, are violated by the request of Skopjeans to gain recognition
>under the name "Macedonians".  If Skopjeans have trully good intentions
>for Greece, they should respect the rights of Macedonians in Greece who
>wish not to share their identity with their northern neighboors under
>the current circumstances.

So because the people in Greek Macedonia don't want to "share their
identity", the majority people in the Republic of Macedonia should
have to sacrifice their identity completely?

I hope even a Greek can understand which sacrifice is the largest,
having to "share" or having to abandon completely. But of course
Greeks are so much more worth than any other people so solely their
desires should be fulfilled. Go fuck yourselves.

-- 
Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - sommar@enea.se
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: faruk@bcars6f5.BNR.CA (Faruk od Bosne) 
Subject: Re: Intervention?
Reply-To: faruk@bnr.ca
Organization: Bell Northern Research, Canada
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 93 21:54:06 GMT


In article <1jpc9oINN3l3@SUNED.ZOO.CS.YALE.EDU>,
jovanovic-nick@cs.yale.edu (Nick Jovanovic) writes:
|> 
|> And yet, there are economic sanctions only on Serbia and Montenegro.
|> Croatia's secession was recognized by the world.  Yugoslavia (Serbia &
|> Montenegro) was dismissed from part of the U.N.  If these are examples
|> of an even-handed policy toward ex-Yugoslavia, I am from Mars.

No you are not, but you look like the one.

|> -Nick

Faruk.
From: rnewman@bbn.com (Ron Newman)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna,soc.culture.croatia
Subject: Re: Tudjman's Best Friends - From "Germany's Secret"
Date: 25 Jan 93 20:10:53 GMT
Organization: Bolt Beranek and Newman (BBN)
NNTP-Posting-Host: spcsun25.bbn.com

In article <1993Jan23.163505.19722@husc3.harvard.edu>, stojanov@husc11.harvard.edu (Milan Stojanovic) writes:

|> Recent events in Serbian Republic of Krajina reminded me on this
|> article, published some time ago in "Searchlight," July 1992, London.

This was an upsetting article, to say the least.  Can you tell us
more about "Searchlight" ?

-- 
Ron Newman		rnewman@bbn.com
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,alt.news.macedonia,soc.culture.misc
From: carlos@morgan.ucs.mun.ca (Miguel Borges)
Subject: Re: If Andy and Miguel knew to read ...
Organization: Memorial University of Newfoundland
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 11:53:35 GMT

jdd1@cec2.wustl.edu (James Dimos Dimarogonas) writes:
>The most disturbing fact about the whole discussion is that the ones
>attacking Greek positions with all their strength on the issue of
>Macedonia are "northeners".  The Turks on the net, although not 
>exactly buddies, don't deal with the issue.

We should get Serdar Argic or Mutlu in on this ... ;-)

>Could this be a north south kind of conflict?  The good lighter skined
>slavs, that live in the north, against the darker and "uncivilised"
>Greeks in the south??  Could this be an unconsious display of european
>racism (I won't get into names so that I won't insult anyone,  but you
>can imagine who are the blonde blue eyed people by their names, even though
>this may not be very accurate).

Ha.  A very bad generalization.  I am neither white, nor "northern".
And I certainly don't have blode hair and blue eyes.

>Don't get me wrong,  there is much to be desired from the
>attitude of a few of the Greeks on the net too, but I canot understand
>the passion of some of the norhern european netters on this subject
>which does not affect their lives one way or the other!

And how would a nation named "Macedonia" affect Greeks that live in
the U.S.A.?  It would bruise their fragile egos.
-- 
   ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
  // C. Miguel Borges               A.K.A.                Carlos M. Borges //
 // carlos@morgan.ucs.mun.ca                    carlos@garfield.cs.mun.ca //
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Xref: sparky soc.culture.yugoslavia:10609 soc.culture.europe:11322 soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna:1308 soc.culture.croatia:460
From: boyle@kirkuk.berkeley.edu (Joseph Boyle)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.europe,soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna,soc.culture.croatia
Subject: Re: NPR: Bosnia Faces Aggression now from Croats
Date: 22 Jan 1993 01:45:37 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: kirkuk.berkeley.edu

Keywords: 

In article <1jn97b$mhi@agate.berkeley.edu> kurtovic@gold.cchem.berkeley.edu (Zoran Kurtovic) writes:
>In article <1jmqsa$hld@agate.berkeley.edu> boyle@kirkuk.berkeley.edu (Joseph Boyle) writes:

>>received Muslim refugees, and because only Serbs or Croats are welcomed
>>as refugees in Serbia or Croatia, not because of massacres or expulsion.
>
>This last statement is completely without any basis in fact.  There are
>somewhere around 400,000 Bosnian Muslim refuges in Croatia.  This 

I meant only that Muslims were no longer allowed to enter, not that no
Muslim refugees are living in Croatia!  See my post before this.

I agree with your analysis that follows, which is one of the most reasonable
things I've read in this newsgroup.
Xref: sparky soc.culture.yugoslavia:10638 soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna:1329 soc.culture.croatia:475
From: boyle@kirkuk.berkeley.edu (Joseph Boyle)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: Intervention?
Date: 22 Jan 1993 21:36:04 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: kirkuk.berkeley.edu

In article <1jpc9oINN3l3@SUNED.ZOO.CS.YALE.EDU> jovanovic-nick@cs.yale.edu (Nick Jovanovic) writes:
[list of sins by Croatia deleted]

>And yet, there are economic sanctions only on Serbia and Montenegro.
>Croatia's secession was recognized by the world.  Yugoslavia (Serbia &
>Montenegro) was dismissed from part of the U.N.  If these are examples
>of an even-handed policy toward ex-Yugoslavia, I am from Mars.

Croatia is kept as an ally by Bosnia, and its misdeeds in Bosnia
tolerated by the West, because it's the only route for supplies to get
to Bosnia to fight the much worse crimes by the Serbs.  If you are so
concerned about Croatian aggression, even though yesterday you were
happy with the Croats' support for the cantonization plan, I'm sure
you will support free air traffic between Bosnian government held areas
and the outside world.

And by the way, the only minority with UN protection against military
action is the Serbs in Krajina in Croatia.  You're right, the UN isn't
even-handed.

Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,alt.news.macedonia,soc.culture.misc
From: irakliot@longs.LANCE.ColoState.Edu (Leo J. Irakliotis)
Subject: Re: If Andy and Miguel knew to read ...
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 02:51:11 GMT
Reply-To: irakliot@lance.colostate.edu
Organization: Engineering Network Services, Colorado State University

In article <carlos.728087887@morgan>, carlos@morgan.ucs.mun.ca (Miguel Borges) writes:
|> 
|> Give up the personal attacks, Leo.  They make your argument look much
|> weaker than it is.  Only a desperate fanatic would lower himself to such
|> a level.

It's not a personal attack I initiated. You implied that I attempted to
misinform the group by posting the FYRM before the independence although
it was more than painfully obvious that that was the constitutions they
got after independence. Should you had read it carefully you would not
have made such speculations.

|> Just answer the direct questions.

There was no direct question. In the consitution passages I made available to
this group through R. West, there were clear markups about EC requirements
(which of course are very recent) and dates indicating that this is the
post-independence consitution.

|> What should be done about Macedonia?  Should we kill them all?
|> Should it be forced to change its name?  What ?  What do you suggest?

It's not my policy and definetely not Greece's policy to kill someone that
doesn't negotiate.

There's a set of requirements FYRM was ask to meet.

-change constitution
-change name

Even if the they change their constitution, and remove any greek emblems
from their flag and banknotes, in order to meet EC's requirements, these
are things that can change back.

But, if they change their name to a one that DOES NOT IMPLY THE EXISTENCE
OF A MACEDONIAN ETHNICITY north of Greece, that's something they have to
live with for ever.

This is the reason why Greece insists so much about the name.

Because when you have FYRM printing banknotes with the White Tower of
Thessaloniki on, then there's definitely something wrong and Greece has
to protect itself.

Now, allow me to remind to you that if Greece was Israel, there will be no
FYRM anymore. The fact that Greece did not take military action against FYRM, thus
offering it as a gift to Serbians, is because Greece stands by the EC principles
and policies.

Most of the member of this group admit that Greece outguns FYRM and so it is.
But Greece prefers a more civilized way of solving problems. And not only that.
But to assure that this civilized way will be succesful it took the initiative
to guarantee the current borders of FYRM dragging Albania, Serbia and Bulgaria
to comply with.


-- 
Leo J Irakliotis                 irakliot@eva.lance.colostate.edu
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Electrical Engineering                      l.irakliotis@ieee.org
Colorado State U
(303) 491-2021                              Optical Computing Lab
From: oyalcin@iastate.edu (Onur Yalcin)
Subject: Re: Info on Macedonia
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, IA
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 19:52:24 GMT

In article <JTSILLA.93Jan25123615@damon.ccs.northeastern.edu> jtsilla@damon.ccs.northeastern.edu (James Tsillas) writes:
>
> ... deleted stuff...
>
>It's silly to bring ancient history into this question, though, Harold.
>All this stuff is forgotten. Today Greeks are more worried about
>militants in Skopje who may seek a Turkish or Bulgarian ally in
>threatening the Macedonian porovince. We only need to go back to Tito for
>evidence on this.
>
>Without the "Macedonian" name attached to their country they won't have
>much of a pretext (or they won't have this specific
>pretext). Based on recent history these fears are justified.
>
>Harold, Greece needs the west's support on this issue.
>
>
>

What is it with you Greek folks? Your paranoia of "the Turkish threat" has
no limits. Turkiye has no interest in the Macedonian issue whatsoever. I am
starting to think that you get some sort of masochistic pleasure by making
yourselves believe that there is a neighbour constantly posed and willing to 
beat the hell out of you.
>--
>	***  James Tsillas  jtsilla@damon.ccs.northeastern.edu   ***
>	***      Work: (508)898-2800, Home: (617)641-0513        ***
>	***        "He is after me. Jim is after him."           ***
>	***            - Hop on Pop, Dr. Seuss                   ***


-- 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,alt.news.macedonia,soc.culture.misc
From: tervio@katk.Helsinki.FI (TERVI| MARKO J)
Subject: Re: Solution for "krajina"
Organization: University of Helsinki, Computing Centre
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 11:16:59 GMT


In article <1993Jan27.225533.1068@walter.bellcore.com>
 ddc@nyquist.bellcore.com (Daniel Chukurov 21324) responds:
.  

>       OK. How about this for a plan: Serbia gives Albanians a right for
>       self determination (including secession) in exchange for equal
>       right to be given to the Serbs in Serbian-predominated areas of
>       B-H and Croatia? Than, we would not need to worry about the street
>       signs, I think. So be it!

 That's what I meant with my proposition for Krajina, only that the Serbs 
(even the most moderate ones) have everywhere stressed that Kosovo as 
the cradle of Serbian culture will always be part of Serbia.  So within the 
proposed principles Krajina would remain a part of Croatia as a result of 
Serbias choice.  The question is on what terms.  

>	
>        A tit' for tat', works for you works for me, etc. solves everything.
>        
>        Actually, that would be the best, long term solution for the
>        ex-Yugo problem. As it now stands, even if the peace comes to B-H
>        and Croatia, down the road we will have this war all over again and
>        for the same reasons. The EC and US should have known that this is
>        the only solution that would work. But, I guess they thought that
>        they can make this unfair division and recognition of administrative
>        borders stick by threat of force. Well, they made a mistake. There
>        will not be use of force to make the wrong right, ask the Russians.
              (OK, I ask the Russians. What do you mean by that ?)      
>        Back to the negotiating table, and this time consider the legitimate
>        claims of all of the parties involved.
>Regards,
>DDC

 Yes, back to the negotiating table but the problem is that initially
 Serbia can territorially only lose in there, and territory i.e. 
 "lebensraum" is what they seem to be fighting for. As you said, new 
 borders (and I think we're talking about borders of autonomous regions)   
 should be based on pre-war ethnic majority maps, and the present 
 "Krajina" extends far beyond that (Vukovar & easter Slavonia, areas north 
 of the Sava and so on).  Minority rights should of course be respected 
 everywhere.         
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.europe,soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna,soc.culture.croatia
From: goykhman@apollo.hp.com (Red Herring)
Subject: Re: NPR: Bosnia Faces Aggression now from Croats
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 19:35:15 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Chelmsford, MA

In article <1jmqsa$hld@agate.berkeley.edu> boyle@kirkuk.berkeley.edu (Joseph Boyle) writes:
>In article <C17t4G.Iyx@apollo.hp.com> goykhman@apollo.hp.com (Red Herring) writes:
>>    The media often refers to the Bosnian goverment as "Muslim-led".  
>>    To me, this sounds neither "secular", nor "democratic".
>>
>>    Are we talking about the same goverment?
>
>I think so.  The Bosnian government and armed forces include Croats and
>Serbs as well as Muslims, and has consistently supported a pluralist
>democratic state through the whole conflict.  ...

    Waffen SS incorporated numerous ethnic "divisions", does this
    mean it was a pluralistic institution?

    Mr.Izetbegovic recently attended the Islamic Conference in Baghdad.
    Do you think he went there because the majority of Bosnians 
    (~41% Muslim) had voted to build an Islamic state in Bosnia?

    Also, could you name a single Islamic "pluralist democratic"
    state?  Turkey?  Isn't that a country where the Kurds are
    denied the right to speak their own language (imagine 
    prohibiting Hispanics from speaking Spanish)?






-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Follow the money" Deep Throat
Disclaimer: Other opinions are mine only
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,alt.news.macedonia,soc.culture.misc
From: irakliot@longs.LANCE.ColoState.Edu (Leo J. Irakliotis)
Subject: Re: Info on Macedonia
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1993 22:43:44 GMT
Reply-To: irakliot@lance.colostate.edu
Organization: Engineering Network Services, Colorado State University

In article <1993Jan24.185354.4249@enea.se>, sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog) writes:
|> So because the people in Greek Macedonia don't want to "share their
|> identity", the majority people in the Republic of Macedonia should
|> have to sacrifice their identity completely?

What identity are you talking about dude?

-- 
Leo J Irakliotis                 irakliot@eva.lance.colostate.edu
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Electrical Engineering                      l.irakliotis@ieee.org
Colorado State U
(303) 491-2021                              Optical Computing Lab
From: Howard Frederick <hfrederick@igc.apc.org>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Date: 24 Jan 93 15:38 PST
Subject: Europe in Turmoil*Media*Call4Papers
Nf-ID: #N:cdp:1475300389:000:2526
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!hfrederick    Jan 24 15:38:00 1993


From: Howard Frederick <hfrederick>
Subject: Europe in Turmoil*Media*Call4Papers

                [ Please respond to hfrederick@igc.apc.org ]
                     Call for Papers*Deadline Extended

                    International Communication Section
         INTERNATIONAL ASSOCIATION FOR MASS COMMUNICATION RESEARCH

                            "Europe in Turmoil:  
               Communication and Democracy in Civil Society"
        Hosted by School of Communications, Dublin City University
                        June 25-26 Dublin, Ireland

     Three forces compete for the hearts and minds of Europe's attentive 
publics--government, market, and civil society.  In Europe, as elsewhere, 
governments and markets control the major channels of public opinion 
formation, so they usually prevail.  But new channels (both interpersonal 
and technological) have transformed our capacity to build and maintain 
long-distance coalitions and networks.  New regional and global forces are 
now using new channels of communication to fight problems whose scale 
previously confounded local and national solution.  We call this the 
"transnationalization of civil participation."  

     The International Communication Section seeks papers for two panels 
describing the scope and impact of channels promoting communication and 
democracy in Europe's civil societies.  From the environment to women, from 
neighborhood conflict resolution to computer networks, from radio to 
publishing, from universities to the labor movement:  Civil society is 
producing new media to distribute its culture and information.  Market- and 
government-controlled media have not been able to provide reliable and 
diversified information essential to democracy.  We will accept articles 
from outside Europe if they focus on channels of civil and democratic 
communication relevant "Europe in Turmoil."  

     Paper abstracts accepted until February 15.  Important:  Final papers 
must be submitted via *email or on diskette* by April 15, 1992, no 
exceptions.  For submissions, contact:  Howard H. Frederick, President, 
International Communication Section of IAMCR, P.O.B. 94653, Pasadena, CA 
91109 USA Voice:  +1-818-568-0994  Email:  hfrederick@igc.apc.org   
Fax: +1-818-791-2205 "Attention CLAIRE"   

     For more information on the Dublin conference, contact Paschal 
Preston, School of Communications, Dublin City University, Glasnevin DUBLIN 
9, IRELAND  Tel:  +353 1 7045478  Fax:  +353 1 704 5447  
E-Mail:  PrestonP@dcu.ie

Xref: sparky soc.culture.yugoslavia:10694 soc.culture.europe:11402 soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna:1360 soc.culture.croatia:501
From: goykhman@apollo.hp.com (Red Herring)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.europe,soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna,soc.culture.croatia
Subject: Re: NPR: Bosnia Faces Aggression now from Croats
Date: 25 Jan 93 21:46:59 GMT
Article-I.D.: apollo.C1FJ6B.E78
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Chelmsford, MA

In article <1993Jan22.221302.10399@bmerh85.bnr.ca> faruk@bnr.ca writes:
>
>In article <C19t2s.Hru@apollo.hp.com>, goykhman@apollo.hp.com (Red
>Herring) writes:
>|> 
>|>     Mr.Izetbegovic recently attended the Islamic Conference in Baghdad.
>|>     Do you think he went there because the majority of Bosnians 
>|>     (~41% Muslim) had voted to build an Islamic state in Bosnia?
>|> 
>  Just for the record. Majority of Bosnians are 44% Muslims (1991 census).
>  The rest are 31% serbs and 17% Croats.
>
>Faruk.

    44% is a plurality, not majority, and not enough to establish
    an Islamic goverment in Bosnia via a democratic process.  Some kind of 
    a repressive regime would have to be maintained.  Croatia as well as Serbia 
    would probably feel compelled to intervene on behalf of their Bosnian kins.


-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Follow the money" Deep Throat
Disclaimer: Other opinions are mine only
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: irakliot@longs.LANCE.ColoState.Edu (Leo J. Irakliotis)
Subject: Re: Info on Macedonia
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 02:08:17 GMT
Reply-To: irakliot@lance.colostate.edu
Organization: Engineering Network Services, Colorado State University

In article <7439@m1.cs.man.ac.uk>, mintches@cs.man.ac.uk (Sava Mintchev (DRL PhD)) writes:
|> Why don't we set up a little experiment? Ask a Macedonian to write a short
|> text in his native language. And since the language is "a mixture of Greek and..",
|> probably Leo will be able to provide a translation into English?!

Excellent reasoning. That's how you got your degree(s)?

-- 
Leo J Irakliotis                 irakliot@eva.lance.colostate.edu
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Electrical Engineering                      l.irakliotis@ieee.org
Colorado State U
(303) 491-2021                              Optical Computing Lab