HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: spp@zabriskie.berkeley.edu (Steve Pope)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Homophobia (really not about  Homeschooling)
Date: 7 Jan 93 22:02:49 GMT
Organization: U.C. Berkeley -- ERL
NNTP-Posting-Host: zion.berkeley.edu

msmorris@watsci.UWaterloo.ca (Mike Morris) writes:

>I think that nevertheless I would favor a CO2-type measure excluding
>any one of these categories from legal special treatment. That
>would mean, of course, that I don't approve of affirmative
>action legislation, but this would also mean that I would not
>be willing legally to punish a business which refused to hire
>blacks, say. Personally, I would boycott the products of such a
>company, and I would suspect such a company would not long remain
>in business. In any event, you can understand why I would not be happy
>to add yet another protected minority group to the list, when I
>disagree with the principle of having such a list in the first place.

Mike, I have to admit that you are usually quite consistent in 
your political philosophising, with the singular exception
that your self-description as a "liberal" is bizarre.

As for the CO2-type measure, this measure singles out
homosexuality as a category that has special legal 
treatment.  Anybody who truly believes the line that
all this measure does is "exclude [gays] from special
legal treatment" is way off base.

Let me explain by the simplest possible example.

If a Colorado employer decides to fire an employee because
he is heterosexual, that employer would get sued
up the wazooo for wrongful termination.

If a Colorado employer decides to fire an employee bacause
he is homosexual, because of CO2, the employer cannot
get sued for wrongful termination.

So obviously, CO2 is not about equal treatment.  It is
about enforced discrimination.

What bugs me is that the far-right anti-gay types
keep repeating this bogus chant about how CO2-type measures 
are only correcting an imbalance, are only taking away 
an alleged unfair advantage... and intelligent people
like Mike here believe it.  Strange.  I just don't get it.

I would have more respect for somebody who simply comes out
and says they don't like gays (disgusting as such
a person would be), then for somebody who tries to 
insult the public's intelligence by describing these
anti-gay initiatives as fair and equal.

Steve
From: rhogan@phakt.usc.edu (Ron Hogan)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Paglia (was: Cross-Writing)
Date: 6 Jan 1993 15:51:19 -0800
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: phakt.usc.edu

adolphson writes:

Ron Hogan writes:
>> In certain cases, though, the writer's personality is totally infused
>> with the writing, and Camille Paglia's _Sexual_Personae_ is exactly
>> what I have in mind.

>> and then I give a papraphrase of what I remembered her opinion of
>> Tristam Shandy to be

>What Paglia wrote is not that she doesn't "why people think
>Tristam Shandy is funny", but rather that Sterne's habit of
>drawing attention to the artifice of art on every other page
>belabors the obvious and is a very *male* thing, which she 
>finds tiresome. 

Which, I think, even further proves my point.  She dismisses it
because she finds it "tiresome".  Now there's literary criticism
for you.  If that's not infusing your subjectivity into the work,
what is?  And I still seem to recall her saying that it wasn't as
funny as has been claimed.  Can we get somebody with a copy to
quote the passage, or should I leaf through a copy at the Univ
bookstore?

I have a serious question as to whether Sterne's self-referentiality
was a 'habit' or a 'technique', but unless you want to press the
issue, I'll hold my peace.

Ron Hogan
From: arc2@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (AMY CHARLES)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Computers not a substitute for books
Date: 5 Jan 93 17:13:37 GMT
Organization: Lehigh University

James Fuller writes,

    "COMPUTERS ARE NOT A SUBSTITUTE FOR BOOKS."

I've been having a running argument with the Project Gutenberg folks
(bit.gutenberg, I think) about this.  Aside from problems with aesthetics and
transferability, digital text makes the most egalitarian of media the most
classbound.  Imagine a world where almost all text is published digitally.
To read it, then, you have to *buy* a reader, even if you're borrowing free
material.  If you're too poor to buy a reader, you're out of luck.  Sure,
maybe public libraries will have them.  (Assuming we still have public
libraries, at that point.)  But then you're at the mercy of ever-shrinking
library hours....already, here in Allentown, PA, it's difficult for a working
adult to use the public libraries in the summer.

Until recently, the publishing industry has been fussy and archaic enough to
resist market pressures.  With the advent of consolidation and the marketing
mentality, though, I fear for the future of print.  Printing,
binding/packaging, and distribution are all much much cheaper to do, en masse,
electronically than conventionally.  We await, I think, only "market
development."  Inconvertability, aesthetics and social considerations rarely
resist capitalism.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: chucks@uars2.acd.ucar.edu (Chuck Smythe)
Subject: Re: Reading as an addiction (Was: 92 in rabreview)
Organization: Ntl Center for Atmospheric Research, Atmospheric Chemistry
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 18:11:10 GMT

In article <1i1sh9INN3ru@FRIDGE.AI.CS.YALE.EDU> engelson-sean@cs.yale.edu writes:
>A related phenomenon is the reverse of the above---does anyone else,
>when entering someone elses house, automatically form a somewhat
>negative opinion of them if there *aren't* reasonable quantities of
>books in evidence?  I suppose that my unconscious reasons that either

I find it depressing; what a barren mental life he must have.  In a few
cases it is shocking; e.g. the principal of my wife's middle school has a
large, expensive house - without so much as a magazine in evidence.  What
the hell is a man like that doing in _education_, for christ's sake?

			Chuck Smythe
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: msmorris@watsci.UWaterloo.ca (Mike Morris)
Subject: Re: The 10,000 nights of Mike Morris
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1993 02:06:15 GMT

                                 Tuesday, the 12th of January, 1993

Tom Maddox writes:
	It takes Mike Morris to make eternity?

No, no. Only 10,000 nights. Lord willing the creeks don't
rise (as my father likes to say).

                  Mike Morris
          (msmorris@watsci.uwaterloo.ca)

Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: sanjiva@ecrc.de (Sanjiva Prasad)
Subject: Re: Woosterspeak
Reply-To: sanjiva@ecrc.de (Sanjiva Prasad)
Organization: European Computer-Industry Research Centre, Munich
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 19:35:44 GMT

In article <jyc.726424408@Leland> jyc@leo.Stanford.EDU (Jon Corelis) writes:
>   The recent interest here on the Jeeves saga prompts me to ask a
>question that I've wondered about:  did anyone ever actually talk like
>Bertie Wooster?  

One of the surprising things about this thread is that I haven't seen any
Indians join in.  Probably an indicator of the mean-minded self absorption
sweeping the country now.  You see, Plum Wodehouse is (or at least was 10
years ago) very widely read among Indians who read English.  "Read" is maybe
too weak.  Voraciously consumed and committed to memory is perhaps better.
Did anyone actually talk like Bertie?  Yes, I knew several who actually did!
And they could name each character (mispronouncing some and drawing out their
Fotheringay-Phipps) in each story;  some could relate the stories in great
detail.

My brother had a huge collection of Wodehouse, now sadly all pillaged by
borrowers of the next generation.  I remember when I was 9 and he 12, we
used to experience explosive thunderclaps and creaking furniture (and on
occasion a broken chair and a collapsed bed) as he convulsed with hysterical
laughter.  "He's reading Wodehouse", my mother would explain to any puzzled
visitors.  Strangely enough, he was initially resistant to reading Plum,
but there was a character called Mike, who played cricket and through whom
the world came to know of a rather remarkable fellow called Psmith.  So it
was the cricket bait that got my brother hooked.  And when Psmith comes can
Jeeves be far behind?  And the Empress.

Regarding TV portrayals, I seem to recall the guy who acts as George in
Black Adder playing Bertie.  Is my memory playing tricks on me?  Must've been
on Thirteen a few years back if I saw this.

It's kind of strange that in my 5+ years on LawnGuyLand, I never thought of
going to see where Wodehouse lived.  (I did go to see where the "other
Uncle Walt" lived).  Does anyone have a street address or even the village?
("The Hamptons" is too vague).

Regards,
Sanjiva
--
Sanjiva Prasad,  Guest Magus				E-mail: sanjiva@ecrc.de
European Computer Industry Research Centre		Off: +49 89 92 69 91 58
Arabellastrasse 17					Fax: +49 89 92 69 91 70
8000 Muenchen 81, Germany				Res: +49 89 16 33 59
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: mnemonic@eff.org (Mike Godwin)
Subject: Re: Paglia:  clarification needed
Originator: mnemonic@eff.org
Organization: Electronic Frontier Foundation
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 12:37:14 GMT

In article <C0H2qB.Bqr@news.iastate.edu> s1mbm@isuvax.iastate.edu writes:
>How on earth can some of you claim that Paglia is *not* a difference
>feminist when she says that if women had been responsible for 
>civilization, we'd all be living in grass huts?  She may insist on
>equal rights, but her insistence on absolute differences based on
>biology render her insistence on social equality rather tepid, in my
>view.

Michael, "difference feminism" is not merely the belief that men and women
are different in fundamental ways. Paglia can't qualify as a "difference
feminist" because she does not believe women are better than men.

For a discussion of "difference feminism," see Katha Pollitt's excellent
article in THE NATION ("Are Women Morally Superior To Men?" Dec. 28,
1992).

>Sorry, but I don't see Paglia has some great advocate for 
>women.

Who said she was?


--Mike



-- 
Mike Godwin,    |"I'm waiting for the one-man revolution
mnemonic@eff.org| The only one that's coming."
(617) 864-0665  |                           
EFF, Cambridge  |                   --Robert Frost
From: francis@oas.stanford.edu (Francis Muir)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Paul Johnson (was Paglia)
Date: 8 Jan 1993 21:02:08 GMT
Organization: Stanford Exploration Project
NNTP-Posting-Host: oas.stanford.edu

Mike Godwin writes:

	Roger Lustig writes:

		Whatever.

	In these four lines, Roger sums up Paul Johnson's book perfectly.

Oh my God! We're not back to those back-scratching, log-rolling days of
yore are we? 

						RABworm
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: msmorris@watsci.UWaterloo.ca (Mike Morris)
Subject: Re: Homophobia (really not about  Homeschooling)
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 02:59:04 GMT

                                     Monday, the 11th of January, 1993

Steve Pope writes:
  Now if *Morris* had said "Sieg heil, buddy" to a fellow netter,
  that would be probably a once per decade event, and I would be
  tempted to believe he had finally lost his generally excellent grasp 
  on logic and crossed over into the realm of the emotional.
  But coming from Roger, I view it simply as colorful interjection.

Thank you, Steve. I must admit, though, that having argued 3 or 4
times now with Roger in this forum, and though I think him to be one
of the most intensely intelligent and well-read people hereon, 
I have been as close to crossing over to pure anger with him as I
care to get with anybody. I've read Mike's latest response,
and I will read through Roger's response to my long one when it
comes. But I think that Jack is right: I found the 400-whatever
lines to be exhausting to write myself, and I've also noticed
to my dismay that I just spent a whole weekend without finishing
a single book, so I really plan to let Mike's and Roger's responses
stand.

For the record: I believe OR9 to be morally repugnant. CO2 I
am now convinced is an unfair and, therefore, unprincipled
way to go about lessening non-discrimination laws. But, I do not
believe that supporting it would necessarily mean that one
were homophobic. And the definition of ``liberalism'' I like
to use is closer to the usage of Allan Bloom, F.A. Hayek, Dumas Malone,
and Pierre Trudeau than to that of Clayton Cramer, Rush Limbaugh,
Camille Paglia (all three from the pejorative side), or Roger Lustig.

Also for the record: I finally started carrying out my plans
to interweave reading Dorothy L. Sayers (starting with _Whose
Body?_) and Arthur Ransome (starting with _Swallows and Amazons_).
I finished _WB?_ last week, and finally got into the Ransome
today on the bus ride home. These are both of them *wonderful*
writers, and am I ever looking forward to the next 20-some of
these books!

               Mike Morris
       (msmorris@watsci.uwaterloo.ca)
From: arc2@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (AMY CHARLES)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Bookstore Anecdote
Date: 10 Jan 93 00:07:31 GMT
Organization: Lehigh University

In article <1993Jan8.214113.2705@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>, ashall@magnus.acs.o
hio-state.edu (Andrew S Hall) writes:
>A while ago I was in a local bookstore chain and had the most
>amusing experience.
>
>A woman was looking some school books for her high school son.
>She needed Oedipus the King and Antigone. The only books she
>could find were Oedipus Rex and Antigone. She appealed to the
>clerk for help and he actually searched around and tried to
>find Oedipus the King for here w/o success. It wasn't until
>I intervened that anyone could figure out what to do.
>
>It is pretty sad when bookstore employees don't know even the
>basics about literature. (And this wasn't a national chain, but
>a local one that prides itself on being a really good bookstore.)
>I think more bookstores should be like Borders and have employees
>pass tests before being hired.
>
>Andrew Hall
>
Oh dear.  Once again I step to the staunch defense of my fellow bookstore
workers.  Very sorry about your subliterate clerk, there.  Most of us aren't
like that.  (Though said clerk probably knows an awful lot more about SF than
*I* do.)  Really, truly, most of us know a lot about books, just not
everything.  And it is love of books that keeps us working for $4.50/hr just
 to be near them, though we usually only get to unpack and shelve, not read.
  Better luck next time.  (Ever consider joining the force yourself?
 The pay sucks, but the conversation's good.)
From: francis@oas.stanford.edu (Francis Muir)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Political Correctness in the Dark Ages
Date: 13 Jan 1993 04:58:53 GMT
Organization: Stanford Exploration Project
NNTP-Posting-Host: oas.stanford.edu

Dani Zweig writes:

	Hunting, trapping, clearing, mining, etc. have been with us a 
	long time. They become what we perceive as environmental 
	destruction in the relatively recent time-frame (the last 
	century or few) during which these activities became exceedingly 
	efficient.  So it's in the last century-plus that we see books 
	uncritically portraying what we regard critically -- Melville's
	fleets of whalers hunting the sperm whale, Haggard's sporting 
	contest to see which hunter can shoot more birds in an afternoon, 
	etc.

Which reminds me that Audubon, of blessed memory, and his party once 
"bagged" over 600 brace in a week-end. It seems he would only draw from
"life". As mehitabel used to say. "A short life, but a merry one."

							RABworm
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: claird@NeoSoft.com (Cameron Laird)
Subject: Standards in Journalism (was: The Wall Street Journal (was: 1992 in Review))
Organization: NeoSoft Communications Services -- (713) 684-5900
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 13:55:23 GMT

In article <1993Jan5.192353.10105@speedy.aero.org> nadel@attatash.aero.org (Miriam Nadel) writes:
			.
			.
			.
>I'm a great fan of the center column, too.  
>
>But the major reason I get the WSJ, rather than another newspaper, is that
>it seems to be the only newspaper left in the U.S. which has some standards
>of literacy for its reporters.  The NY Times has declined seriously in
>the past few years and, while local news is of some importance, I get all
>I really need from listening to the radio on the way to and from work.
			.
			.
			.
Thanks; I thought I was the only one who noticed.
By my rough memory, the spell-checking in the *WSJ*
also began to slip about a decade ago, but the *NYT*
is simply replete with stylistic infelicities that
competent copyboys of a century ago would have
caught.  Oh, OK, I don't have truly have reliable
documentation of their capabilities, but I know
that reading the *NYT* is too often unpleasant.  Why
Don't They Hire More People Like Us?
-- 

Cameron Laird
claird@Neosoft.com (claird%Neosoft.com@uunet.uu.net)	+1 713 267 7966
claird@litwin.com (claird%litwin.com@uunet.uu.net)  	+1 713 996 8546
From: kassover@rumsey.crd.ge.com (David Kassover)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Computers not a substitute for books
Date: 8 Jan 93 21:23:52 GMT
Organization: nope

In article <1993Jan8.171757.5650@speedy.aero.org> nadel@attatash.aero.org (Miriam Nadel) writes:
>In article <7LD2wB1w164w@phsbbs.princeton.nj.us> rachel@phsbbs.princeton.nj.us (Rachel M. Kadel) writes:
>>>
>>> You mean that listening to story telling is superior to book
>>> reading?
>>
>>Of course!  Of course, when you can get it, a truly skilled storytelling 
>>session is ever so much more rewarding than reading a book.
...
>
>Incidentally, if you want to hear a really skilled storyteller, you can't
>do better than getting Jay O'Callahan's tapes.  In particular, the two
>sets of Pill Hill Stories ("Coming Home to Someplace New," which includes
>"Glasses," "Chickie," and, my personal favorite, "Politics," and "The
>Dance") and "Herman and Marguerite" from "Earth Stories" are wonderful to
>listen to.

I haven't heard Jay O'Callahan, but I heartily recommend Robert
Munsch, in particular _The Paper Bag Princess_ and _Jonathan
Cleaned Up -- And Then He Heard A Noise_, and Rosalie Sorels, who
may or may not have published books of her stories.


-- 
David Kassover             "Proper technique helps protect you against
uupsi!khazad!kassover	          sharp weapons and dull judges."
kassover@aule-tek.com                   F. Collins
kassover@ra.crd.ge.com
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: nancy@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Nancy Lebovitz)
Subject: Re: Cross-Writing (was: Books I Got For Xmas)
Organization: UDel, School of Life & Health Sciences
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 19:33:31 GMT

In article <6JAN93.01143238@vax.clarku.edu> hhenderson@vax.clarku.edu writes:
>The RABworm writes:
>
>
>Yes: maybe *you* can think of more female authors who have written from
>a male point of view.  I'm stuck at three right now, and there must
>be more.
>
>Heather
>HHENDERSON@vax.clarku.edu

As I recall, genre fiction is being included in this discussion. Here are
a few from fantasy/sf: Lois McMaster Bujold Miles Vorkosigan stories and
Ursula LeGuin's _The Disposessed_ and Wizard of Earthsea novels. 

Nancy Lebovitz
nancy@genie.slhs.udel.edu

Where is human nature so weak as in the bookstore?



Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: rjwill6@PacBell.COM (Rod Williams)
Subject: Re: Homophobia (really not about  Homeschooling)
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, California
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 19:44:12 GMT

> johne@or.credence.com (John Ewing) writes:

>I correct this misunderstanding every time I see it.
>
>The intent of these measures was not to take away "equal protection" from
>some "minority" groups.
>
>The intent is to prevent certain people, that exhibit "certain behaviors"
>(read: "any unique behavior at all that one choses to engage in -- e.g.
>reading mystery novels"), from gaining an unfair advantage under the law
>that the rest of the population does not enjoy (the behavior being focused
>on here is sexual activity with another of the same sex)...

Spare us your doublethink (ObBooks :-)).  The Colorado
amendment says nothing about "certain behaviors", behaviors
that are, in any case, not usually relevant to one's ability
to perform a job or rent an apartment.  What it does say is
that people cannot seek legal redress for unfair
discrimination in employment, housing or public accommodations,
based on their sexual *orientation*, if they are homosexual or
bisexual.  Thus, a lesbian virgin -- who has never exhibited
any sexual behavior -- can be legally fired from her job for
sticking up a k. d. lang poster in her cubicle.  Thus,
heterosexuals -- the group with the "unfair advantage" of not
being singled out for discrimination on this basis -- are
nevertheless still protected from it.
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
rod williams -=- pacific bell -=- san ramon, ca -=- rjwill6@pacbell.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: rhogan@phakt.usc.edu (Ron Hogan)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Paglia, Sterne, Amis
Date: 7 Jan 1993 02:34:33 -0800
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: phakt.usc.edu

The quote by Paglia on Sterne's Tristam Shandy, as supplied to
me by Heather:
     Laurence Sterne's Tristam Shandy, which I find utterly
     unfunny, may be a male hypochondrical construction, for
     it is an accident series of disasters to body parts-- a
     flattened nose, shattered knee, crushed grain bone, a
     penis circumcised by a falling window.


I think it might be a reasonably safe assumption that Camille Paglia,
if she *has* read any of Martin Amis' fiction, would find it similarly
unfunny.  The only novel of his I have on hand is _The_Rachel_Papers_,
a selection of which follows:
     However, on the following Friday or thereabouts I woke
     up to find that someone had squeezed a family-size tube
     of pus all over my pyjama bottoms.  A toxic wet dream?
     On visiting the bathroom I found also that I was peeing
     lava.  Palpably, something was up.  To deal with the first
     symptom, I fixed up a sort of nozzle over my helmet with
     a wad of Kleenex and an elastic band.  To ameliorate the
     second, I took care always to use the narrow downstairs
     lavatory, where, with palms pressured flat against the
     walls, like Samson between the pillars of the Philistine
     temple, I would part company with angry half-pints of 
     piss, pus, blood-- you name it.

A description of the young protagonist's dose of the clap.  I'm not
saying that this paragraph is by any means a kneeslapper by itself,
though it does have a blackly humorous charm, but serves as an example
of the perverse sort of humor that Amis does so well.  You have to see
it within the context of the protagonist's description of his adolescent
years and sexual escapades.  Come to think of it, much like Larry Sterne's
novels in that regard.

And the scene on holding back an ejaculation by thinking of lines
from TS Eliot and multiplication tables, while taking in the physical
details of the act, is incredible.

Ron Hogan

Newsgroups: rec.arts.books