From: ratner@owlnet.rice.edu (Logan Joshua Ratner)
Subject: Re: ROBO-COPULATION
Organization: Rice University
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 17:22:55 GMT

In article <1992Nov7.054440.9980@highlite.uucp> mike@highlite.uucp (Mike Wiik) writes:
>ratner@owlnet.rice.edu (Logan Joshua Ratner) writes:
>
>>In article <1992Nov1.190741.18602@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> pkasiako@nyx.cs.du.edu (Paula Kasiakowski) writes:
>>>(much multilevel quotes deleated)...
>>>
>>>Look, honey, you know what your problem is is you don't UNDERSTAND the
>>>history of female oppression handed down by none other than MEN.
>
>>I see, all men oppress all women always.  Somewhat simplistic, don't
>>you think?
>
>Seems like everyone's trying to make themselves feel smart'n'hip by
>writing snappy comebacks to this woman's complaints. Maybe we'd like
>to ignore the idea that women and men communicate in somewhat different
>ways. It's probably not literally true that ALL MEN oppress ALL WOMEN
>ALL THE TIME, but is does seem reasonable to suggest that indeed MANY
>men have oppressed MANY woman thru a good deal of recorded history. The
>sexism of the hip young man of to-day isn't as blatant, but it *is* in
>our language, and it may take a very very long time before it can be
>eradicated.
>
>In any case, Logan's one-line snappy response to the issue blatantly
>reveals his own sexism. Oh how scientific and precise we can become
>when presented with a women's complaint like this... How many of us
>guys would really make the effort to understand in detail (perhaps
>even posing as a woman) what she is talking about? Is she to be
>ridiculed just because she doesn't talk like you???
>
>By the way, Logan, that wasn't what she said. It may well have been
>what you THINK she said, which is not really the same thing at all...

Seems I need to defend myself.  I'd e-mail you, but I want everyone
to see my side as well...

You're right, what she really said was that history showed "women oppressed
by none other than Men."  She's effectively reducing the history of the species
to a single, simplistic thesis.  Never mind that women have been oppressed by
women as well as men.  Never mind that some men have suffered at the hands
of women.  I responded to her tone and style as well as to her literal wording.

And I'm not trying to "feel smart," nor have I ever been called "hip" by anyone.
  
>
>>>So you better shut YOUR trap!!! Men are not even entitlted to an OPINION on
>>>feminism because they all act like [person precieved insensitive.]
>
>>I see, all men are alike and none of them deserve even an opinion in what
>>should be an open discourse.
>
>Maybe close, but again not exactly what she said. I can agree that men
>are NOT entitled to act in an arbitrary manner on some issues important
>to women, such as abortion.

No, that is exactly what she said.  Look at the quote, "Men are not even
entitled to an opinion on feminism."  And who, besides yourself, even
mentioned action.  Since you bring it up, I'm pro-choice, not that its
salient to the point. 
When ordered to shut up, I usually scream louder.  Paula said exactly that,
and I responded.

>
>>>THey whine when the least offense is made against their sensibilities:
>>>"Ouchie! I'm being torn down" while they turn around and then do worse
>>>to real women without even knowing it; it's an innate response.
>
>>Again, you are treating males the way you claim to not want females to
>>be treated.  And crying "my injury is worse than your's" is hardly
>>going to win you any support.
>
>It's sad what a history of oppression can do to people, isn't it?

Oppression can also bring out the strongest characteristics in people.
Excusing poor preformance/behavior on opression hold people back.  When
you hold yourself back and use society as an excuse, you deserve pity.
When you move forward against society you deserve praise.

My point was that women are not the only group to suffer, and laying
claim to some sort of moral highground is to me a demeaning action.
>
>>Far as I can see, you have only lived long enough to become callous,
>>mean-spirited, entrenched, and insulting.
>
>Sounds like you're describing yourself, Logan. Hey, just a few perhaps
>overgeneralized but probably sincere comments and you've written this
>woman (Paula?) off. Now she safely fits in that group of people you
>don't have to listen to, eh? 

I've written off the literal meaning of her post, but thats about it.
I'm still listening, if only to defend myself.  And I don't write
people off, period.  If she's got something even slightly more
constructive to say, I'd love to hear it.

And just because I call her callous, entrenched, et.al., doesn't mean
I don't think she has a reason for being so.  Maybe she's got a right
to be bitter, maybe not.  But I for one don't think she should take
it out on the entire male population.  Not only is it not their collective
fault, but many of them (of us) ARE trying to make things better.

I notice you cut out the part where I support equal wages and hiring practices.
The better to make me look like a bad guy, I guess.
>
>This isn't alt.strict.scientific.rationalism. There's flames and
>arguments aplenty here. Maybe if someone, anyone, took the time to
>think about what she is saying, *and imagine what must have happened
>to her to cause her to think that way*, we might promote some
>understanding and enlightenment on all sides. Perhaps you think she
>sat down one day and concluded, just on general evidence, that all
>men were bastards. I doubt it. We are all the product of our inter-
>actions with others. No man can really and totally understand what
>some women go thru. Not to say they can't try....
>
Well, she said I can't try (see above) but thanks for your vote of
confedence.  As to what burned her out, again see above.

>>You don't know me.  You don't know for whom or for what I care.
>>But I'll tell you one thing.  I don't care for your tone.
>>You want equal treatment?  Try giving it for a change.
>
>Maybe that's the problem. An historically oppressed group, be
>they women or blacks or whatever, achieve some equality and we
>expect them to be instantly forgiving and join us in our mind-set.
>It's not fucking likely, and I can't really blame them...
>
>>ratner
>

Great strides are made from inside and out to achieve that measure
of equality and those who try to help don't like being slapped for
our efforts.  Forgiving, maybe not.  Discriminate in their attack,
that would be nice.

>	-Mike
>
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ratner (again)
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk,alt.industrial,alt.sex,alt.sex.bondage